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陳菊是否走了這個東西卻被警察在深夜去帶人卻被警察以社會法送辦這個東西您認為這沒有侵害到言論自由或是警察執行有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":177.469,"end":194.11,"text":"後來是不是法院已經覺得沒有違法我想請教您的意見從法院的標準是我是尊重法官的判決您的意思是尊重法官判決法官已經做了判斷我們還是要有勇氣出來說明要對抗這個我覺得我先談一個"},{"start":195.091,"end":214.998,"text":"您是司法官30期我是40期我想我們念的書大概都是蠻類似就是吳根翁岳昇等等這些大法官他們以前寫的書我們因為級別比較近那我必須講這些人他們給我的感覺就是當他們在擔任大法官的時候他認為檢察官搜索權應該交給院方他認為"},{"start":216.238,"end":236.39,"text":"集會遊行不應該讓行政機關事先去審查一些有沒有危險性有沒有必要性他們都敢去衝撞當時的政府其實這是我對大法官的一個深切的期待就是我希望選出來的大法官是勇於依據憲法而去告訴政府你做錯或是這個法律是有問題的"},{"start":237.59,"end":265.092,"text":"我覺得您一定跟我想法一樣嘛我們都期待大法官是有勇氣代表人民對政府發聲的那個人而不是說重要的問題我們不敢回答好沒關係那我想說我再請教您下一個問題柯建民前幾天他講了一個東西他說726大罷免之後要用刑法100條來制裁處理在野黨立委那我想請教您刑法100條的構成要件你知道嗎"},{"start":266.136,"end":284.665,"text":"是內亂罪那一條嗎沒有就是那個內亂外患罪我個人是沒有聽到柯總召有這樣的發言那就是內亂罪基本上已經在實務上幾乎已經不存在我跟您報告一下"},{"start":285.603,"end":304.476,"text":"您畢竟是我們的大學姐 我跟您報告上個會期我就有提出我當年我還是高中生以及大學生的時候我參加野百合學運參加廢除刑法100條的遊行其實我覺得這何其荒謬今天在執政黨的立法院總召出來說要用刑法100條來辦我們這些立委"},{"start":306.699,"end":322.835,"text":"當年我學生的時候我站在街頭上陪著林三田老師陪著他太太在街頭上面日曬雨淋要求廢除刑法100條有關思想犯的部分我們希望流亡在海外的異議份子能夠回到台灣結果幾年後他要用這個條文來辦我"},{"start":325.728,"end":350.864,"text":"我心裡是什麼感受當年我為了台灣人民為了這些流亡在海外的黨外分子我們在街頭這樣子為他們奮戰要求修掉刑法100條思想犯的部分今天卻被一個總召拿著據說刑法100條來辦我們這些在野黨的利益我想跟你報告一件事情其實我覺得這何其荒謬回想我過去這段人生我覺得何其荒謬"},{"start":352.435,"end":379.951,"text":"我們越走越回去了 當年我還是個十幾二十歲的學生我就懂得要上街去捍衛這些異分子的權益結果今天卻要有人要來這個辦我們這些例文好 我就跟您報告這是讓我覺得何其荒謬啦 台灣走到今天這個地步是 委員我認同這個不能夠處罰思想反對那我想請問你喔 如果有人在網路上面發言說他要顛覆賴清德政府 請問一下這有沒有構成內亂罪"},{"start":382.195,"end":409.673,"text":"要看他實際的作為您說對了其實我們民主國家是不會去處罰一個人在腦中的一個想法所以我們的刑法100條從過往我們認為不應該有的思想犯到現在我們認為他一定要有實際的作為這個時候才會構成犯罪那一定要有強暴或脅迫實施我們才會構成犯罪所以你單純說我要顛覆賴清德政府其實這個沒有構成犯罪"},{"start":410.353,"end":433.021,"text":"不能夠把台灣今天又走回以前思想犯的時代那會對不起這些先賢先烈我過往非常崇拜這些人我覺得不管是鄭南榮不管是這些我覺得這些人他帶給我們當年那些理想跟著他們走結果今天為什麼會變成這樣所以我就想一想我心裡是很難過啦"},{"start":435.034,"end":461.11,"text":"其實我市民的過世之前我有幸能夠有跟他遇到過有聊過其實我想今天這些民進黨的信徒真的對不起這些過往的這些人所以我真的只有一個感覺責任日以遠典型在素行他們帶給我們很多很好的這些過往的例子可惜我們這一輩的人並沒有跟上他們並沒有把他們發揚光大所以我想"},{"start":462.7,"end":490.14,"text":"過去4.45還有6.44也都寫得很清楚國家不能因為集會遊行團體主張共產主義或分裂過渡唯有就禁止他們團體的設立或者是集會的許可所以其實大法官在過往已經很明確表示說今天除非你的言論達到危險 立即危險的程度否則國家不應該予以干涉那我也多次講其實所有法律人都很理解一個金句"},{"start":490.76,"end":505.991,"text":"就是我不同意你的看法但是我適時保衛你發言的權利我想大法官真的就要有這個風骨我不知道您認不認同剛剛委員提到了這兩號大法官的解釋我們都是尊重也遵守的"},{"start":509.424,"end":525.068,"text":"因為您是國民法官這個制度的推手我想請教您因為這一次我們憲法判決他變成說要求死刑案件法官要一致決那這樣子"},{"start":526.699,"end":546.497,"text":"這個東西跟當時那個國民法官法的修法方向就不一樣啊對不對那這樣子變成說一個專業法官他就可以推翻甚至六位國民法官的決定他一個人不同意就可以推翻這個就變得好像賴清德在第三講的說這個不是表決多數就是贏啦"},{"start":546.897,"end":567.093,"text":"那這樣子跟您多次對我上YT有看您有談到這個國民法官法的一些想法您說要帶入一些國民的意見民意進入判決中對不對那這樣會不會變成說完全就把您當初推動國民法官的這個概念就不一樣了我不知道您想法是什麼"},{"start":569.144,"end":595.978,"text":"有關於113年憲八的這個部分因為他37位申請人的案件都沒有適用國民法官所以他的判決裡面我們不講過去我們講未來不是37位就現有的國民法官法的規定他平易的規定一般的案件的平易的量刑是二分之一那如果是死刑案件的話要三分之二所以在設計上"},{"start":597.139,"end":612.241,"text":"跟大法官宪判是是是他在設計上面他就是死刑案件要特別的慎重那大法官宪判出來之後有關於這個國民法官案件要判死刑要怎麼判的時候他有特別提到職業法官也要三個人同意"},{"start":613.582,"end":629.919,"text":"您沒有答到我的問題我想跟委員說的一個是說我來講一個啦這一次啦中選會莫名其妙沒收了我們立法院議決的這個反實質廢死的一個公投那剛剛王鴻薇委員也有問你這個問題所以我想我不要再問因為我剛剛"},{"start":630.88,"end":650.96,"text":"王宏威委員在問你這個問題的時候我一聽到這個問題我立刻站起來站在電視機旁邊用力的聽看看您是怎麼回答他因為他問你說這個有沒有違法違憲中選會沒收這個我們立法院預決的這個公投結果呢我在那邊聽了半天你沒有給出答案有或沒有你沒有給出答案所以"},{"start":652.196,"end":674.848,"text":"我還是沒有聽到您最後的結論您鬧了一圈之後還是沒說所以我在那邊站著我只跟我助理說我沒有聽到答案所以還是回到我一開始講的我認為的大法官是要有勇氣跟政府說你不對了你違法違憲了我們期待的大法官世界各國的大法官都是這樣子在設置所以"},{"start":676.883,"end":685.3,"text":"我認為啦 就是要擔任一個大法官的人甚至當時自然院副院長的人其實要有那個勇氣說出結論您一定懂"},{"start":686.314,"end":706.767,"text":"中選會沒收立法院的決議這個東西有沒有問題有沒有違反權力分立的概念其實我覺得您都懂但是您剛剛並沒有講出答案我以為我可以說明一下嗎就是作為一個職業的法官我們對於一個問題一定是聽過兩邊的說法聽過辯論之後才會下最後的判斷"},{"start":707.547,"end":736.183,"text":"那您這個提問呢我之前講過說他確實有正反兩邊不一樣的意見如果將來他確實是一個成案的話我們有機會可以聽到兩邊的意見還有法庭自由的意見我們再做最後的判斷我尊重您這個說法但是還是沒有答案我心中的答案並沒有得到解答那我再請教你其實我們在講就是你有提到說你們希望說司法是可以被大家所接受的"},{"start":737.284,"end":766.266,"text":"判決 最希望說好的司法是一個判決是大家都能夠接受 大家都可以的所以貼近民意的司法這個是被害人訴訟權法治化我們是不是要加強這一塊我想過往你也有這個很多有關被害人的一些論述嘛因為我想 憲判八辯論庭他其實有犯一個很大問題就是他從頭到尾他37位殺人犯的家屬都沒有到場陳述"},{"start":768.528,"end":783.798,"text":"我們看到的是過往很多很多的判決其實大家在乎的是這個人怎麼被殺死沒錯這是構成要件檢察官法官只在乎的是這個人怎麼死的被開幾槍被殺幾刀但是大家都忘了這個人當年是怎麼活的"},{"start":784.338,"end":806.433,"text":"他是怎麼樣他對這個社會的貢獻他對這個家庭的重要性他對他的太太的重要性大家都忘了所以我們都忽略了被害人家屬他在訴訟上面該有的權益就現在訴訟上面被告有權利告訴人有權利結果被害者家屬是沒有權利他講的話在法庭上面一點用處都沒有"},{"start":806.713,"end":830.903,"text":"法官甚至不需要在判決書裡面提到也不需要在判決書裡面說明都不用也辯解都不用所以這是目前我國制度的一個很不好的地方您也有談過這一塊我不知道您記得嗎好謝謝委員提問關於被害人權益的保障你剛剛提到說這個被害人在量刑的部分他的意見可不可以進來那事實上我們現在的辯論有分兩塊一個是法律的辯論一個是科刑的辯論"},{"start":831.543,"end":846.534,"text":"在現在的刑事訴訟法裡面就已經有規定在柯刑的辯論要讓被害人來表示意見就是有一個比較新的規定是在柯刑辯論的時候讓被害人也進來表示意見被害人可以有代理人他可以請律師來幫他說"},{"start":847.615,"end":868.13,"text":"他也可以透過檢察官因為檢察官是對他有訴訟照料義務他有相當的管道可以表達我跟您說明一下其實這段時間有很多死者被害人已經被殺死了死者的家屬來跟我們講他們常常開庭都沒有傳喚他們到他們到場也沒有發言的機會甚至他們的說明也都沒有"},{"start":869.291,"end":891.648,"text":"顯現在判決書裡面我想跟您報告15有這個狀況家屬一再以及律師一再的跟我們反映所以我想我簡單的提一下最近這段時間發生幾個例子真的請所有我們的法官檢察官以及大法官們都能夠知道一個點我剛說的不要只聚焦在這個人怎麼死你要想想他當年是怎麼活"},{"start":892.208,"end":919.988,"text":"就像台南那個殺警案兩位警官衝到現場為了維護治安就被殺死他家人是多痛那土城有一個劉警官他要攔檢那個那個獨駕的人結果他抓著方向盤被人家拖行到撞死那屍奪獎的那個女老師他只是為了幫家人煮一頓飯去買個東西然後就被殺死或是像新北戈侯案那個被人家砍了砍了七刀他在現場拜叫人家"},{"start":921.129,"end":946.056,"text":"那個同學不要再殺他了一樣照殺所以很多時候我們法律人忘了人性尊嚴這件事情就像邱連功老師常說的你要創造一個富有人性溫暖的司法制度啊他要求我們要重視人性尊嚴啊不管在刑事訴訟或民事訴訟都很重要但是我們今天的法官檢察官大法官都忘了這一塊所以我常"},{"start":947.296,"end":975.545,"text":"再跟家屬談談到最後我自己心情不好甚至都流眼淚因為那個痛即使我不是當事人我都可以體會到但是我們的實務以及我們的法官們都忘了這件事情所以拜託不管您如果有幸擔任市長院副院長真的還是要積極推動被害人以及他的家屬在訴訟上面的參與權因為目前我國以刑事訴訟來說第三條的當事人其實並不包含"},{"start":976.602,"end":998.556,"text":"這些家屬你很清楚嗎那我們是不是我們的司法制度忽略了他們他們來跟我說他們是司法的孤兒他老婆被殺了就他是司法的孤兒這個真的是不應該我覺得制度不能忘了這一塊所以請問您您對於就是推動被害人的訴訟參與權您的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":999.306,"end":1022.215,"text":"是的被害人的訴訟參與權是我在刑事廳長任內通過的法案被害人的權益要保障除了司法這一端當然還有很多的包含社政警政還有法部這邊大家都要配合的地方是很多的如果法律已經有規定而我們的審判書的法官沒有確實做到的話我們會用"},{"start":1024.296,"end":1052.435,"text":"這部分是民意網的主張我今天提出來也是讓您能夠說明而且讓國人知道你是支持這些被害家族在訴訟上權益的我們將來推動修法也請您那邊一定要多跟我們配合因為畢竟這個訴訟法是司法院在掌管的好嗎最後我想提一個這段時間我們遇到有法官跳樓司法過勞的問題有法官跳樓警察親身書記官過勞時"},{"start":1054.136,"end":1070.039,"text":"那當然你說像一般消防員也有工作太辛苦或工作場所太危險等等的然後奪走消防員的性命我想說政府對於基層公務員的權益我覺得是嚴重的漠視那這段時間我也提出了很多想法"},{"start":1070.379,"end":1092.196,"text":"那包括之前我也開了公聽會我也請了高院的法官現職以及已經離職的法官等等的都來說明講出點出問題在哪而且他們講的都非常的核心那我也多次找民事廳 刑事廳來開會討論那譬如說我們提到了避免刑事化的疏政調查程序以及避免二審完全覆審"},{"start":1093.136,"end":1113.076,"text":"這個都是能夠讓我國法官能夠減輕工作量能夠讓訴訟能夠繼續維持一定的品質的但是我等了一年多了我還是沒有等到因為一個立委最多一任就是做四年我等了一年半了我還是沒有等到司法院的任何回應但是那些法官我以前的法官 檢察官的同學們"},{"start":1113.877,"end":1129.413,"text":"他還在水深火熱啊他們常常打電話跟我講他們家庭也沒了 健康也沒了沒有時間陪小孩沒有時間陪家人然後我自己很清楚我也是這樣過來的嘛那身體也弄壞了那這樣子的情況下我們要怎麼能夠"},{"start":1130.954,"end":1152.922,"text":"要求有一個有品質的裁判呢所以對於簡化司法的工作量您有沒有當作是您一個重要要推動的事情我想這個問題是全國法院檢察官現在都想要知道的我首先要先謝謝委員關心我們司法過勞的問題然後也在司法及法治委員會提出很多的建議"},{"start":1153.72,"end":1176.752,"text":"那關於訴訟制度的調整你剛剛提到的是訴訟制度的調整現在事實上形勢的第二省是完全副省的國家已經幾乎沒有了那我們要怎麼樣去調整這樣的一個訴訟制度讓它更公平我覺得是可以討論的因為完全訴訟不經濟你一省要學英美法的交互結論就英美法不是二省再玩一次副省甚至二省就是法律省"},{"start":1177.872,"end":1201.082,"text":"那我們今天去二審、四十審再一次複審你讓法官走一樣的程序浪費所有法官的時間浪費當事人請律師的費用其實我一直提這個但是目前都沒有得到審議人的回應是不是如果您有幸擔任副院長的話是不是可以幫我們盯緊這一塊全國幾千個法官檢察官都在等待這個改變"},{"start":1202.562,"end":1223.629,"text":"公訴檢察官也很辛苦好不好我想這個很重要然後還有裁判書的簡化裁判書的簡化我知道你們頒布了很多立稿但是目前成效也不大裁判書出來還是厚厚一本每個人還是跟我抱怨裁判書的製作最後我想我要跟你提不管公司部門都存在職場的霸凌"},{"start":1224.669,"end":1233.235,"text":"我想司法院一定要注意到這個點因為這些法官、檢察官他們的身體跟健康都在抗議了請重視職場"}]}},{"id":"163040","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163040","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d58f47f2efbe1b016af914535bb497189efda591dfa3bf307f85b55e0d0608bdf185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"16:16:18 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謝謝再請被提名人說明"},{"start":30.831,"end":50.939,"text":"委員好蘇法官午安那國民黨民眾黨一再論述人民不相信司法但本席的經驗是人民有爭執的時候都習慣相互提告把仲裁權交給法官那這是相信司法的表現所以您認為國眾兩黨說的是事實嗎"},{"start":54.912,"end":64.316,"text":"我必須這樣說就是我們這幾年的案子一直在增加事實上也代表了另外一個含義是人民信任司法他要把他的糾紛把他的身家財產交給法院來做判斷"},{"start":70.216,"end":90.774,"text":"您過去呢積極參與我們的司法改革也致力於刑事相關的修法跟國民法官的制度在你的經驗裡面也可以看到您對人權保障和憲政的意識的重視那外界呢對你有很高的期待希望你可以延續我們國家對人權價值的重視"},{"start":91.894,"end":108.26,"text":"所以請問你過去的經驗比較多事實上是刑事的審判也推動很多刑事相關的修法像是刑事訴訟法的修訂你認為這些經驗對你未來擔任大法官工作的優勢是什麼為什麼國家要把這個職務託付給你是的"},{"start":111.668,"end":139.346,"text":"過去刑事訴訟法的修法基本上都是跟憲法息息相關因為我們說刑事訴訟法是小憲法是一個憲法的測證儀它裡面所提到像我剛剛所提到的包含被告的強制辯護權或是他的越卷權都跟他憲法十六條的訴訟權有關跟羈押有關的修法是跟憲法第八條有關所以相關刑事訴訟法的修法基本上都是跟憲法相關的"},{"start":141.957,"end":163.192,"text":"另外就是我相信對於大法官的職務你應該都事先有些規劃所以請問你上任之後有哪些工作是你認為要達成的目標我希望可以加強被害人的保護剛剛我們一直在強調被害人的權益是要被保護的"},{"start":164.045,"end":181.067,"text":"如何加強?被害人保護在我任內已經通過了被害人的訴訟參加他在法庭上面的隱私還有法庭上面如果他要做隔離的話相關的措施我希望可以更加的落實"},{"start":182.088,"end":206.367,"text":"那另外的話是法官的這個訴訟的就是案件的壓力實在太大還有司法人員那我們整個法院的這個人才的流失非常的嚴重我希望可以有機會來實行我們剛提到的這個司法檢壓的工作那在你報告也提出來說要建構專業有效能的司法那你怎麼建構這專業有效能的司法"},{"start":207.2,"end":230.741,"text":"我有特別提到說希望可以重視法官的審判經驗因為法官的審判經驗的累積是非常重要的它也是一個國家審判文化的重要基礎所以我希望可以透過對於審判的尊重還有專業知識的加強然後讓法官可以更專業譬如說統一法律間接或者是精緻量刑等等"},{"start":231.906,"end":256.634,"text":"但你也提到司法要減壓來穩步向前那你怎麼去做到司法減壓司法減壓其實它不是一個容易的工作是因為我們並沒有太多的資源重新投入就我們現有的人力跟物力我們除了去做盤點之外我們當然希望可以譬如說在制度面我們要防止爛數然後要推動ADR"},{"start":257.654,"end":277.717,"text":"就是這個訴訟外的紛爭解決的這個機制那我們有很多退休的法官或者是憂鬱的法官他們願意回到法院來擔任調解委員在第一線來幫我們做這個訴訟外的紛爭解決那我覺得這是值得鼓勵的那另外像這個AI的這個應用的工具可以幫法官來做一些這個"},{"start":278.978,"end":300.174,"text":"就是減少重複性的技術性的譬如說筆錄或者是複表等等的我們可以研究讓它更簡化一點更重要的你也有提到說要連結國際來做司法交流因為的確數位時代各種法律爭議無遠弗屆跨國存在那你要怎麼去做"},{"start":301.297,"end":321.545,"text":"我會提到這個特別是這個譬如說我們現在很注重的打詐打詐跟洗錢它其實都是涉及到其他國家的那我們希望跟其他國家的法官可以交換經驗然後知道說他們國家在面對相同問題的時候是怎麼處理的我們可以累積我們自己的專業能量"},{"start":324.404,"end":351.802,"text":"去年十月底那司法院院長跟副院長還有另外五位大法官屆期滿那目前在任的大法官只有八位可是去年立法院通過了憲法訴訟法修正案那提高了憲法法庭做成判決跟暫時處分裁定的門檻變成至少要有十位大法官來參與評議而且要宣告違憲的話至少要九位大法官同意"},{"start":354.564,"end":372.543,"text":"今年1月25號生效可是現在只有8位大法官等於憲法法庭是停擺的那憲法法庭事實上是台灣憲政體制的最後守門員要有足夠的大法官憲法法庭才能夠恢復運作你過去曾參加司法院的釋制第665號第775號"},{"start":375.126,"end":402.8,"text":"的釋憲說明會對憲政秩序跟我們的憲跟裁判的憲法審查都有研究所以目前憲法法庭受理的案件還有385件是沒有結案裡面有98%是人民的申請案如果這個大法官缺額的現況持續下去的話是否已經是構成我國憲政危機而且影響到人民的權益所以請問一下你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":403.36,"end":425.458,"text":"跟委員報告如果我們從憲法訴訟法施行111年開始一直算到113年期間新收的案件有6867件那我們來看這個申請人的身份到底誰來申請呢如果是人民申請的案件有6805件最多他佔的比例高達99.1%"},{"start":427.56,"end":441.815,"text":"就是說憲法法庭所受理的案件有99%是人民來申請的人民申請的是有關於他們的權益保障的他們基本人權的過去我們透過大法官的解釋就那個列舉的就是憲法第22條"},{"start":444.199,"end":466.865,"text":"獵取權利的部分包含人格權隱私權原住民的文化權跟身份認同權我們都是用這樣的方式來就是來做這個權利的保障假設就是我們這個沒有辦法開憲法法庭的話那人民的這個99%的這個申請案件可能就沒有辦法來解決那我看到這個憲法法庭的一個"},{"start":467.585,"end":490.203,"text":"专案的统计的分析他提到说这三年来宪法法庭的他做成实体判决里面申请人是人民的占了75.9%将近76%的案件都是跟人民的基本权利有关所以宪法法庭就保障人权的部分确实扮演非常重要的角色"},{"start":491.089,"end":513.369,"text":"相信因為你也是很重視人權的尤其事實上是公民的權利因為這樣子的停擺可能影響到很多人蘇法官你在過去也擔任司法院的刑事廳長期間大力主導了推動國民法官的心智現在國民法官法施行已經超過兩年了"},{"start":513.809,"end":525.713,"text":"整體來說雖然現在國民法官起訴的案件還不是非常的多但增加的速度非常快去年的起訴案件數比前年提升大概60%那審結的案件數成長了4倍"},{"start":530.695,"end":545.161,"text":"但是在國民法官法上路之前跟之後都有法界人士提出來說檢辯雙方在這個制度裡面資源跟力量都是不對等的問題為什麼這樣講因為檢察官背後是國家組織辯護人卻是單打獨鬥的個人而且"},{"start":548.682,"end":571.14,"text":"會流向國民法官法庭的案件大多是屬於強制辯護類型是由法院轉介給法服的那檢辯雙方在財力人力等等的資源都差距非常的大那在需要投入更多辯護心力的國民法官案件裡頭那檢辯資源不對等的問題會更被凸顯請問一下你認為這應該如何改善"},{"start":574.429,"end":594.455,"text":"在國民法官的案件裡面減變的資源不對等在模擬階段其實我們已經有發現所以我們也很希望辯護人這邊可以增加他們的能量所以他們現在可能有些法院有義務辯護人或者是公設辯護人"},{"start":595.435,"end":608.235,"text":"我們在法官學院特別幫他們開課來做增能的這個方面希望他們也可以增強這一部分的能力法律輔助的部分也有些律師來投入希望盡量的能夠讓兩邊的實力可以對等"},{"start":611.984,"end":629.581,"text":"再續問就是說你認為未來該如何強化保障擔任國民法官的民眾因為過去有些研究如果擔任這個的話有時候他個人的個資保護權益甚至人身的安全保護還有更重要的就是心理健康支持怎麼去做"},{"start":631.246,"end":646.447,"text":"謝謝委員委員提到這個心理健康的部分確實在日本他們逼我們先施行他們確實有些他們的叫做裁判員他們裁判員事後他們也是有去做一個法院可能會提供一些心理的諮商"},{"start":647.248,"end":667.052,"text":"然後讓他們在這個案子審結之後如果覺得有需要的話可以有這樣的地方我知道我們很多的法院也在做相同的服務如果國民法官在案件審理期間或是審結之後他們需要這樣的服務他可以跟法院來提出法院會提出一些協助的方法"},{"start":667.512,"end":678.167,"text":"然後至於說他們的個資跟這個隱私在審理期間我們都是不公開的就是這個部分是有保障的希望他們可以安心的審判"},{"start":679.073,"end":704.082,"text":"是 未來希望如果真的有機會上任的時候真的要去注意到這一塊另外在第一期的國民法官判決案的新北市的濟姓婦人殺婦案六名國民法官裡面有五名事實上是男性 只有一名是女性雖然不能說性別組成直接影響判決的結果但是在國民法官組成上的多元性跟代表性應該要更被重視"},{"start":705.255,"end":729.598,"text":"這一點請問一下你認為要怎麼樣改善好謝謝委員這一點我們在這個草案在草擬的時候其實就有人在討論說我們要不要設定一個最低的婦女保障名額之類的還有就是譬如說原住民是不是也要就是有一個保障名額那這個我們經過討論之後也問了在美國的專家他們認為你讓他能夠亂數的去抽籤反而是最公正的"},{"start":730.547,"end":754.135,"text":"我覺得這個未來真的要考慮尤其這種是家暴案裡邊他不得已去做這樣的事情最後事實上判下來真的也是看起來是蠻重的大家都應該都還記得12年前軍事審判法修法廢除我們的軍事審判是因為洪仲丘事件引發民眾的憤怒10萬人走上街頭抗議要"},{"start":754.835,"end":784.324,"text":"要求國軍改革當時蘇法官你是洪仲秋案的二審的審判長當時你審理之後也表示說希望軍方重視軍中的人權問題不過當時廢除軍事法庭之後法界還是有很多的爭論今年3月耐心的總統因應我們的台海隨時可能發生危機也宣布恢復軍法的一個審判請問一下依據歐美的經驗你對台灣恢復軍法法庭"},{"start":786.186,"end":810.653,"text":"在專責審理軍人的案件的利弊得失有什麼看法其實是軍事審判並沒有完全廢除它是分平時跟戰時那我們現在的規定是平時是在一般的法院來審理那我剛好在103年的時候洪仲丘的案子上訴到高院是分的第一號案件是在我們那一庭辦的然後就是我們也親身的去經歷到這個"},{"start":812.493,"end":840.052,"text":"軍事案件確實有他專業的地方那軍事案件要怎麼樣的去設計他的審計制度或者是他相關的編制大法官的解釋已經有說明他是立法形成自由就是由代表民意的立法院可以來經過討論之後他來決定一個制度但這個制度你必須在憲法的原理原則之下譬如說他必須符合正當程序的保障他必須符合比例原則必須符合平等原則"},{"start":840.612,"end":866.678,"text":"只要你符合這些原則立法院可以自由的來設計制度我們給予立法院最高度的尊重然後當然就是在103年的時空背景跟現在已經有不一樣了那需不需要隨著時間的轉移來做調整來修改這個軍事審判法我一樣的答案是說由立法院經過討論之後來做最好的判斷"},{"start":870.973,"end":898.386,"text":"今年六月底也就是兩個禮拜之前呢我們的法院組織法的修正案三讀通過新增我們的法庭直播的規定那司法院的一直表達反對的意見那其他的司法團體包含我一直好過去工作的團體像兒少婦女團體也都有非常高的反對的一個聲音因為畢竟"},{"start":899.124,"end":917.958,"text":"很多家暴或者是兒少保的案子並不適合那所以請問一下蘇法官你怎麼看這個法庭直播的這個問題法庭直播現在已經是我們三讀通過的法律我們必須要予以尊重那就法律省的部分他是在這個"},{"start":919.969,"end":937.522,"text":"原則公開例外不公開那可以用適當的方法那現在這個司法院應該已經在草擬相關的執法事實上的部分大家的疑慮比較多那經過這個這個在最後的修修法有一些但書的規定他的範圍有一點縮小但是呢就是"},{"start":938.443,"end":962.36,"text":"很誠摯的希望司法院在朝你執法的時候要把在公聽會裡面大家所提到的這一些可能的疑慮要緊迫的排除就是譬如說他們擔心會妨礙真實發現然後是不是會有禁用司法害怕禁用司法等等的這個部分可能就是讓司法的設計可能要注意到這一些大家有提過的相關的問題"},{"start":965.848,"end":986.973,"text":"最後就是本席一直很重視兩公約在台灣的實踐那也期望未來在司法體系裡面對被告人被害人及弱勢群體的權益保障都要能夠持續強化讓司法爭議可以被確保因為通常弱勢的對於司法體系是更沒辦法了解也沒有更多的資源來去對應"},{"start":988.191,"end":1000.852,"text":"所以此外本席也期待司法機構能夠持續的積極的加強跟社會的各界的溝通讓民眾更能理解我們司法改革的內容"},{"start":1001.471,"end":1022.747,"text":"並能夠更信任我們國家的司法系統所以關於這兩點就怎麼去加強人權的保障甚至加積極的強化社會溝通那我不知道蘇法官如果你上任的話你未來怎麼去實踐這兩個很重要因為你也本來就很注重人權的保障所以就這兩個問題"},{"start":1024.368,"end":1047.759,"text":"謝謝委員委員特別提到關於弱勢的保障那就是過去呢大家都以為譬如說社會救助法或者是這個這個CRPD等等的這個法案應該怎麼去落實事實上他涉及到的是憲法上的權利憲法上的社會權可以說是憲法譬如說第15條的生存權他這個這個生命權包含這個"},{"start":1048.659,"end":1069.966,"text":"你的生命的尊重還有生命的延續國家要提供一個最基本的最基本程度的可以過人性尊嚴的生活這個是人民的受益權所以關於社會救助還有CRPD相關的金融司法等等的我們都會非常的注意然後"},{"start":1071.126,"end":1087.571,"text":"第二個問題是說那個要如何跟人民溝通這個部分司法院有一個這個專門的部門是在做跟社會溝通的角色那因為社會的議題非常的多那他們用各種各種不同的方式譬如說這個辦司法迎戰"},{"start":1088.551,"end":1103.505,"text":"然後這個或者是用podcast等等的方式用比較人民現在比較新興的這個方式來跟他們溝通那希望慢慢的可以擴散出去讓人民多了解司法好今天就謝謝你謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（16時16分）主席，麻煩請副院長被提名人蘇素娥法官，謝謝。"],["主席：再請被提名人說明。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：蘇法官午安。國民黨、民眾黨一再論述人民不相信司法，但本席的經驗是人民有爭執的時候，都習慣相互提告，把仲裁權交給法官，這是相信司法的表現，所以您認為國眾兩黨說的是事實嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我必須這樣說，我們這幾年的案子一直在增加，事實上也代表了另外一個含義，即人民信任司法，他要把他的糾紛、把他的身家財產交給法院判斷。"],["林委員月琴：您過去積極參與我們的司法改革，也致力於刑事相關的修法跟國民法官的制度，在你的經驗裡面，也可以看到您對人權保障和憲政意識的重視，外界對你有很高的期待，希望你可以延續我們國家對人權價值的重視，所以要請問您，您過去經驗比較多的是刑事審判，也推動很多刑事相關的修法，像是刑事訴訟法的修訂，您認為這些經驗讓您未來擔任大法官工作時有什麼優勢？為什麼國家要把這個職務託付給您？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是的，過去刑事訴訟法的修法基本上都是跟憲法息息相關，因為我們說刑事訴訟法是小憲法，是憲法的測震儀。它裡面所提到的，像我剛剛提到包含被告的強制辯護權或是他的閱卷權，都跟憲法第十六條的訴訟權有關，跟羈押有關的修法是跟憲法第八條有關，所以相關刑事訴訟法的修法基本上都是跟憲法相關的。"],["林委員月琴：另外，我相信對於大法官的職務，您應該事先有些規劃，請問您上任之後有哪些工作是您任內要達成的目標？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我希望可以加強被害人的保護，剛剛我們一直在強調被害人的權益是要被保護的，還有……"],["林委員月琴：要如何加強？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：被害人保護的部分，其實在我任內就已經通過了被害人的訴訟參加，他在法庭上面的隱私還有……如果他在法庭上面要隔離的話，我希望相關的措施可以更加的落實。另外一個是法官的案件壓力實在太大，還有司法人員，我們整個法院人才的流失非常嚴重，我希望可以有機會實行我們剛剛提到司法減壓的工作。"],["林委員月琴：您報告裡也提出說要建構專業有效能的司法，那您怎麼建構專業有效能的司法？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我有特別提到，希望可以重視法官的審判經驗，因為法官的審判經驗累積是非常重要的，它也是一個國家審判文化的重要基礎，所以我希望可以透過對於審判的尊重及專業知識的加強，讓法官可以更專業，譬如統一法律見解或者是精緻量刑等等。"],["林委員月琴：你也提到司法減壓、穩步向前，請問你怎麼做到司法減壓呢？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：司法減壓不是一個容易的工作，因為我們並沒有太多的資源重新投入，就現有的人力跟物力，我們除了去盤點之外，也當然希望可以在制度面上防止濫訴，然後要推動ADR，也就是訴訟外紛爭解決機制，我們有很多退休的法官或者是優遇的法官願意回到法院擔任調解委員，在第一線幫我們做訴訟外紛爭解決，我覺得這是很值得鼓勵的。另外，像AI的應用工具可以幫法官做一些重複性、技術性的工作，譬如筆錄或者是附表等等，我們可以研究讓它更簡化一點。"],["林委員月琴：更重要的是，你也有提到要連結國際做司法交流，因為的確在數位時代，各種法律爭議無遠弗屆、跨國存在，你要怎麼去做？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我會特別提到這個是因為我們現在很注重打詐跟洗錢，這其實都涉及到其他國家，我們希望跟其他國家的法官可以交換經驗，然後知道他們國家在面對相同問題的時候是怎麼處理的，我們可以累積自己的專業能量。"],["林委員月琴：去年10月底，司法院院長、副院長及另外5位大法官任期屆滿，目前在任的大法官只有8位，可是去年立法院通過了憲法訴訟法修正案，提高了憲法法庭作成判決跟暫時處分裁定的門檻，變成至少要有10位大法官參與評議，而且要宣告違憲的話，至少要9位大法官同意。憲法訴訟法修正案於今年1月25號生效，可是現在只有8位大法官，等於憲法法庭是停擺的，憲法法庭事實上是臺灣憲政體制的最後守門員，要有足額的大法官，憲法法庭才能夠恢復運作。你過去曾參加司法院釋字第665號、第775號釋憲說明會，對憲政秩序跟裁判憲法審查都有研究。目前憲法法庭受理案件還有385件沒有結案，裡面有98%是人民聲請案，如果大法官缺額現況持續下去的話，是否已構成我國的憲政危機，而且影響到人民權益？請問一下你有什麼樣的看法？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員報告，如果我們從憲法訴訟法於111年施行開始一直算到113年期間，新收的案件有6,867件，我們來看聲請人的身分，到底誰來聲請的呢？人民聲請的案件有6,805件，是最多的，所占比例高達99.1%，也就是說，憲法法庭所受理的案件有99%是人民聲請的，人民聲請的是有關於他們的權利保障、基本人權。過去我們透過大法官的解釋，就憲法第二十二條列舉權利的部分，包含人格權、隱私權、原住民的文化權跟身分認同權，都是用這樣的方式做權利的保障，假設我們沒有辦法開憲法法庭的話，那麼99%的人民聲請案件可能就沒有辦法解決。我看到憲法法庭的專案統計分析，有提到這3年來憲法法庭作成的實體判決裡面，聲請人是人民的占了75.9%，也就是將近76%的案件都是跟人民的基本權利有關，所以憲法法庭就保障人權的部分確實扮演非常重要的角色。"],["林委員月琴：我相信，因為你也是很重視人權的，尤其這事實上是公民的權利，若因為這樣子而停擺，可能影響到很多人。蘇法官在過去擔任司法院刑事廳廳長期間，大力主導推動國民法官新制，現在國民法官法施行已經超過兩年，整體來說，雖然現在國民法官起訴的案件還不是非常多，但增加的速度非常快，去年的起訴案件數比前年提升大概60%，審結的案件數成長了4倍，但是在國民法官法上路之前跟之後，都有法界人士提出來說，檢辯雙方在這個制度裡面資源跟力量都是不對等的問題，他們為什麼這樣講？因為檢察官的背後是國家組織，辯護人卻是單打獨鬥的個人，而且會流向國民法官法庭的案件大多是屬於強制辯護類型，是由法院轉介給法扶的，檢辯雙方在財力、人力等等資源上都差距非常大，在需要投入更多辯護心力的國民法官案件裡頭，檢辯資源不對等的問題會更被凸顯。請問一下，你認為這應該如何改善？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：在國民法官的案件裡面檢辯資源不對等這個部分，其實我們在模擬階段已經有發現，所以我們也很希望辯護人這邊可以增加他們的能量。有些法院有義務辯護人或者是公設辯護人，我們在法官學院特別幫他們開課做增能這個方面，希望他們也可以增強這一部分的能力。至於法律扶助的部分，也有一些律師投入，希望能夠儘量地讓兩邊的實力可以對等。"],["林委員月琴：我再繼續問，你認為未來該如何強化保障擔任國民法官的民眾？因為過去有一些研究，如果擔任國民法官的話，像有時候他的個資保護、權益，甚至人身的安全保護，還有更重要的就是心理健康支持，要怎麼去做？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝委員，委員提到心理健康的部分，確實日本比我們先實行，他們叫做裁判員，法院可能會提供一些心理的諮商，讓他們在案子審結之後，如果覺得有需要的話，可以有諮商的地方。我知道我們很多的法院也在做相同的服務，如果國民法官在案件審理期間或是審結之後需要這樣的服務，他們可以跟法院提出，法院會提出一些協助的方法。至於他們的個資跟隱私，在審理期間我們都是不公開的，這個部分是有保障的，希望他們可以安心的審判。"],["林委員月琴：是，希望你未來如果真的有機會上任，真的要去注意到這一塊。另外，在第一期的國民法官判決案──新北市季姓婦人殺夫案，在6名國民法官裡面，事實上有5名是男性，只有1名是女性，雖然不能說性別的組成會直接影響判決結果，但是在國民法官組成的多元性跟代表性上，應該要更被重視，這一點請問一下，你認為要怎麼樣改善？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝委員，這一點我們在這個草案草擬的時候，其實就有人在討論說，我們要不要設定一個最低的婦女保障名額之類的，還有譬如說原住民是不是也要有一個保障名額。我們在經過討論之後，也問了在美國的專家，他們認為能夠用亂數去抽籤反而是最公正的。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得這個未來真的要考慮，尤其是這種家暴案，他是不得已去做這樣的事情，結果最後判下來看起來也真的是滿重的。大家都應該還記得12年前軍事審判法修法，廢除軍事審判，是因為洪仲丘事件引發民眾的憤怒，10萬人走上街頭抗議，要求國軍改革。當時蘇法官是洪仲丘案二審的審判長，你審理之後也表示，希望軍方重視軍中的人權問題，不過當時廢除軍事法庭之後，法界還是有很多的爭論。今年3月賴清德總統因應臺海隨時可能發生危機，也宣布恢復軍法審判。請問一下，依據歐美的經驗，你對臺灣恢復軍事法庭專責審理軍人案件的利弊得失有什麼看法？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：其實軍事審判並沒有完全廢除，它是分平時跟戰時，依我們現在的規定，平時是在一般的法院來審理。剛好在103年的時候，洪仲丘的案子上訴到高院，所分的第1號案件是在我們那一庭辦的，我們也親身經歷到軍事案件確實有它專業的地方。軍事案件要怎麼樣去設計它的審級制度或相關的編制，大法官的解釋已經有說明，它是立法形成自由，就是由代表民意的立法院經過討論之後來決定一個制度，但這個制度必須在憲法的原理原則之下，譬如它必須符合正當程序的保障，它必須符合比例原則，它必須符合平等原則，只要符合這些原則，立法院就可以自由的來設計制度，我們給予立法院最高度的尊重。當然103年的時空背景跟現在已經不一樣了，需不需要隨著時間的轉移來調整、來修改軍事審判法？我還是一樣的答案，由立法院經過討論之後來做最好的判斷。"],["林委員月琴：今年6月底，也就是兩個禮拜之前，法院組織法修正案三讀通過，新增法庭直播的規定，司法院一直表達反對的意見，其他的司法團體包含我過去工作的團體，像兒少婦女團體，也都有非常大的反對聲音，因為畢竟很多家暴或兒少保的案子並不適合。所以請問一下蘇法官，你怎麼看法庭直播這個問題？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法庭直播現在已經是三讀通過的法律，我們必須要予以尊重。那就法律審的部分，它是採原則公開、例外不公開，可以用適當的方法，現在司法院應該已經在草擬相關的子法；事實審的部分，大家的疑慮比較多，經過最後的修法，有一些但書的規定，它的範圍有一點縮小，但是很誠摯的希望司法院在草擬子法的時候，要把在公聽會裡面大家所提到的可能的疑慮儘速排除，譬如他們擔心會妨礙真實發現、是不是會有害怕近用司法等等，子法的設計可能要注意到這些大家有提過的相關問題。"],["林委員月琴：最後就是本席一直很重視兩公約在臺灣的實踐，也期望未來在司法體系裡對被告人、被害人及弱勢群體的權益保障都要能夠持續強化，讓司法正義可以被確保，因為通常弱勢者對於司法體系更沒辦法了解，也沒有更多的資源去對應。此外，本席也期待司法機構能夠持續積極加強跟社會各界的溝通，讓民眾更能理解我們司法改革的內容，並能夠更信任我們國家的司法系統。關於這兩點，就是怎麼去加強人權的保障，積極的強化社會溝通，我不知道蘇法官如果上任的話，你未來怎麼去實踐這兩個很重要的工作，因為你本來就很注重人權的保障，請就這兩個問題說明。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝委員，委員特別提到關於弱勢的保障，過去大家很關心社會救助法或CRPD等等的法案應該怎麼去落實，事實上，它涉及到的是憲法上的權利，憲法上的社會權，可以說是憲法第十五條的生存權，生命權包含對生命的尊重還有生命的延續，國家要提供一個最基本程度可以過的有人性尊嚴的生活，這個是人民的受益權，所以關於社會救助還有CRPD相關的近用司法等等，我們都會非常的注意。","委員的第二個問題是說要如何跟人民溝通，這個部分司法院有一個專門的部門在做跟社會溝通的角色，因為社會的議題非常的多，他們用各種不同的方式，譬如辦司法影展，或者用podcast等等比較新興的方式來跟人民溝通，希望慢慢的可以擴散出去，讓人民多了解司法。"],["林委員月琴：好，今天謝謝你。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人的說明。","接下來我們請登記最後一位吳宗憲委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d5867526c16f3216707914535bb497189efda591dfa3bf307f8dff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"15:44:31 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30%左右那么在最近的TVBS的民调当中也针对赖清德总统他就职周年各项的施政表现来进行民调结果没想到最后一名竟然是司法改革"},{"start":116.77,"end":142.569,"text":"说实在话看到这样的民调我自己身为法律人我也感到非常的痛心这代表就是这么多年来甚至在蔡英文总统当时头口深声的说要大力的推动司改但是没有看到有任何的明显的成效我不能说没有成效是真的没有明显的成效所以在这边我想请教您您自己本身担任法官超过30年"},{"start":143.169,"end":158.219,"text":"您怎么看待台湾的法院不被人民信任的这个问题基本上我觉得司法它不是一个容易去讨好的一个"},{"start":158.646,"end":184.433,"text":"一個工作就是譬如說我們的審判會有判就是有一半人會輸或者是刑事案件是把被告關到監獄裡面去所以基本上他是一個做處罰或者是判別人輸贏的這個角色他比較會有一半的人是不滿意的這是有可能但是呢人民對司法的這個鞭策跟他們的他們的感覺他們的信賴感我覺得這個是我們一定要去"},{"start":185.073,"end":211.47,"text":"去重视并且要不断的去努力了我刚刚有特别讲过早期我们是在追求审判独立现在我们追求的是司法为民所以要以民意为依归要以人民的感受为感受好谢谢贝提米人的回答本身要这边强调就是整个台湾的司法的法治系统我们是效法日本跟德国当然近些年来也参考不少美国的法治"},{"start":212.47,"end":226.247,"text":"我相信您一定知道日本的国民跟德国的国民对于他们的司法的信赖度有多高德国的国民信赖这个德国的司法系统的满意度是高达七成八成"},{"start":227.472,"end":249.629,"text":"但是我們台灣這個形成這麼多年而且這個不同的不同界的司法院長也都大力的推動司改但是這個司法信任度是美下玉礦那我想對一般人而言其實評價司法公正其實最簡單的方式就是看到底司法有沒有雙標是不是法律之前人人平等"},{"start":250.76,"end":263.04,"text":"是不是王子犯法與庶民同罪我覺得這是一個非常簡單的指標您自己擔任刑庭法官多年您過去曾經有遇到過有庭審的案件嗎庭審 對"},{"start":264.984,"end":282.226,"text":"停止审判的案件几乎没有几乎没有除非是当事人生病很严重那种所以你自己本身在过去30年的审判的生涯当中你没有遇到过停审的案件当事人生病了他没有办法进行诉讼这种情况也有"},{"start":282.886,"end":304.603,"text":"那大概最長是庭審多久時間庭到他的身體狀況可以所以我們大概會定期的去函詢醫院大概平均呢所以你們會定期的也會去見數不多那我在這邊跟您講台灣其實有出現一個大概舉世無雙的一個案子就是有庭審超過十年的案子"},{"start":305.063,"end":329.596,"text":"甚至本席去跟这个缴证署那边调资料还有人保外就医超过二十几年的那么为什么会有这样的一个情况我想陈水扁的案子您应该非常清楚他从2015年开始就申请保外就医那么2015年的5月13号他就申请这个裁定停职审判"},{"start":330.922,"end":343.084,"text":"但是在這個案子因為當時是這個犯了洗錢罪那這個案子就去依託多年那北院何怡婷在去年5月20號就認定陳水扁犯的這個洗錢案的追訴時效已經過期"},{"start":345.509,"end":370.923,"text":"那麼所以就判陳水扁免訴當然現在這個案子還在上訴當中那麼最新是現在高院已經也受理有完成分案了還要再針對到底是不是免訴的這個議題再繼續進行審理可是您知道嗎陳水扁到現在還有幾個案子是庭審當中這個數字我沒有去特別記現在還有三個案子還有三個案子"},{"start":372.375,"end":397.068,"text":"所以为什么我刚刚讲就是人民对于司法会不信赖以陈水扁这个庭审案来讲就可以知道有哪一个台湾人民这个可以像陈水扁这样的一个生龙活虎然后常常在外面演讲啪啪噪的一个受刑人可以庭审这么久而且甚至有个案子都已经庭审拖过这个16年的时间然后竟然被判免诉"},{"start":397.828,"end":411.776,"text":"那接下來的三個案子呢是不是也一樣會拖過去所以你未來假設有幸能夠成為司法院副院長你要怎麼去改變這樣的情況能夠讓人民認為說其實司法不是雙標不是遇到權貴就轉彎"},{"start":415.734,"end":438.023,"text":"法院会裁定停职审判应该就是有依据的比如说有医生出具的证明等等的那因为这几个案子现在都还在细数中所以我们就细数中的案件我们就先不评论好我想在这里我就是提出这个案子要让这个被提名人知道为什么人民对于司法不信任这就是一个活生生的例子"},{"start":439.158,"end":455.971,"text":"好那接下來呢我要再講的就是賴靖德總統他日前也講有提到就是在五五憲朝或是1946年所通過的中華民國憲法台灣沒有派員參加請問這句話是符合歷史的史實嗎"},{"start":458.286,"end":480.858,"text":"這個部分是總統的發言就是他應該有他自己的依據那我們也不變評論但是這個是不是事實台灣是不是真的沒有支線代表去當時台灣省沒有派支線代表去參加支線據我在網路上面看到的就是有不同的說法或許利用這個機會大家就是會去找出相關的史實來進行討論"},{"start":482.739,"end":505.946,"text":"我覺得是還不錯的機會可以討論您接下來身為司法院副院長的提名而且要當大法官您應該要了解制憲的歷史明明就是台灣當時就有審議會就選出制憲代表然後參加南京的制憲"},{"start":507.608,"end":520.18,"text":"那您才說這個有不同的意見我在這邊我真的覺得很不可思議在這邊的話我希望你要能夠了解這個就是事實台灣省當時就是有派出制憲國民大會代表去參與制憲的會議"},{"start":522.822,"end":544.27,"text":"這就是事實賴清德現在今天他說錯話他不更正道歉就算了但是您作為一個副院長的被提名人同時大法官的被提名人竟然連我們的制限史都不清楚這個本性感到非常的這個訝異那接下來我要再請教您賴清德總統曾經說過中華民國憲法是災難這句話您認同嗎中華民國憲法是我們要守護的對象是所以"},{"start":551.748,"end":577.296,"text":"即便它可能有些不完美的地方但是我們還是要全力守護中華民國憲法所以在這樣的一個情況之下我想請教就是說因為作為大法官作為憲法守護者解釋憲法當然要重於憲法而憲法涉及到國家定位的問題請問在中華民國憲法的架構底下目前是如何去界定兩岸關係您如何去界定兩岸關係"},{"start":578.876,"end":605.817,"text":"憲法裡面規定說兩岸關係是有就是另以法律定制在徵修條文第11條是另以法律定制所以我們後來才有這個兩岸關係條例的訂定那兩岸關係條例要怎麼訂定因為它比較涉及到很多的方面所以我們是尊重好不好意思打斷您的話那簡單來說就是目前兩岸關係到底是兩區關係還是兩國關係這個是關於這個政治問題跟統治行為並不是大法官解釋的範圍"},{"start":607.793,"end":628.367,"text":"我感到很訝異 蘇法官 這個事這麼清楚就訂定在我們中華民國憲法還有兩岸人民關係條例裡面的規定您竟然說這個是屬於政治問題這不是政治問題吧 這是非常單純的憲法問題跟法律問題在國家統一之前 中華民國憲法就已經明確地講到"},{"start":630.575,"end":651.524,"text":"自由地區與大陸地區在兩岸人民關係條例你也是講臺灣地區與大陸地區連這樣子的基本的這樣的概念您都不敢不敢說不敢去認同我們現在的國家定位嗎不是就是法律的規定我們一定是遵守的是所以你認為我們是不是屬於一國兩區的憲法"},{"start":656.165,"end":665.513,"text":"憲法並沒有這樣的一個對憲法裡面現在概念就是中華民國憲法但是我們涵蓋大陸地區跟台灣地區就是"},{"start":666.949,"end":688.217,"text":"關於領土的部分確實大法官曾經有一個解釋說是我們不解釋就是是我們不介入這是呃這個我我真的是感到很要你連這樣子的一個簡單的命題你都可以呃很怕會得罪賴清德所以呢你不敢承認我們中華民國憲法現在所涵蓋的就是大陸地區跟這個呃"},{"start":689.777,"end":715.489,"text":"跟自由的台湾地区好那接下来我再次问就是最近呢这个有出现了一个新名字我们过去在讲立法院所制定通过的法案一般民众可能会讲我们这个是不是属于民生法案改革法案国安法案等等那么或是有些人称所谓的福国利民法案但是最近赖清德在团结第三讲当中他提出了一个新的类型叫做政治对抗法案"},{"start":716.309,"end":737.452,"text":"並且請大家看看現在在野立法院所通過的法案到底有沒有是福國利民法案還是政治對抗法案所以我想請教您您認為什麼樣的類型的法案是屬於政治對抗法案我對於總統所提的這個政治對抗法案沒有了解所以他的這個團結三講你到現在也還沒有去看"},{"start":738.534,"end":756.207,"text":"就是就政治对抗法案的部分我没有很清楚好那我接下来我就请教你你下几个法案你认为是福利法案是属于福国利民法案还是政治对抗法案首先军人待遇条例的修正我们这次修正军人待遇条例增加志愿意和义务意的加持待遇你认为这是"},{"start":757.208,"end":780.498,"text":"民生法案是有利于军人的法案吗属于福国利民法案吗还是属于政治对抗法案这个我觉得它就是一个三读通过的一个法案然后对军人是有利的那警察人员人事条例我们这次也修法提高警消人员的月退所得替代率这是福国利民法案还是政治对抗法案"},{"start":782.094,"end":794.036,"text":"我跟剛剛答案是一樣的跟剛剛一樣的那柴建收支劃分法的修法調整中央與地方的稅收的分配的比例這是對抗法案嗎"},{"start":795.922,"end":818.211,"text":"這個會涉及到權力分立垂直分立的部分那因為我自己沒有財政的背景所以如果委員要詢問的話我會再去了解另外憲法附送法的修法提高大法官的開會人數門檻和做成違憲判決的評議門檻這樣的修法是政治對抗法案嗎要看怎麼定義什麼叫政治對抗"},{"start":820.683,"end":844.536,"text":"這是賴清德總統他所提出的他認為我剛講這些法案都是政治對抗法案甚至連公職人員選罷法修法連署人要附上身份證影本這也是叫做政治對抗法案所以如果說這些都是叫政治對抗法案的話那麼大法官在面對這些政治問題的時候您認為是不是應該要自治退縮而不宜介入審查"},{"start":846.417,"end":860.749,"text":"確實到法官在面對政治問題的話就之前的釋憲的實務是認為政治問題不要介入政治問題政治解決是的那麼謝謝您在剛剛說明賴慶德總統很清楚的把剛剛那些法案都視為他是政治法案"},{"start":861.67,"end":886.797,"text":"現在是政治法案涉及政治問題我希望大法官之後在審查到底這些案件要不要受理的時候應該要注意這些屬於政治問題大法官應該要自治節制不宜介入審查接下來我還要再請教您您在過去長年審判生涯當中您曾經判過死刑嗎有大概有幾件死刑案"},{"start":889.778,"end":914.843,"text":"就是如果是主審的是一件如果是陪席的也有有一些已經因為太久了解大概就是大概也反正也不多嘛那就是譬如說法官的身份您個人的立場是支持廢死嗎我剛剛有回答過就是說廢死就是他不應該是一個非黑即白的問題對然後我就是站在法官的立場就是我是根據法律還有證據來做判斷"},{"start":916.383,"end":942.695,"text":"了解 那么因为这次的这个宪判制113年宪判制8号的所谓的实质费的判决其实引起了民怨那么您自己本身怎么去看待宪判制8号的判决您认为里面的这个大法官所做的相关的解释您都接受吗 还是有没有一些不同的意见对于宪8 就是刚刚有提到说因为我是其中一个案子的"},{"start":944.178,"end":968.205,"text":"的陳審法官所以對於現巴就是可能比較不適合發表評論就是就是我們陳審案件的法官對於對於對於這個相關的案件法官的判決都已經做成了也沒有說什麼好這個不適合去評斷的話不過因為呢呃本期在看到您自己的自傳當中啊裡面有特別講到說你非常重視被告"},{"start":969.285,"end":997.406,"text":"与被害人及家属诉讼权益的横评问题那在这次的113号的宪判之八号的判决里面要求各级法院的合议庭法官一致决然后对于精神障碍或是其他心智缺陷者不能判处死刑那么即便是发生在判决之后或是等待执行期间也是不能够判决死刑那外界普遍都认为说这号宪法判决是严重的倾向被告还有杀人犯"},{"start":998.146,"end":1024.382,"text":"那你認為這樣的判決符合您對於所謂的要把被告與被害人的訴訟權益橫平的標準嗎?縣八這號判決裡面確實對被害人的部分比較少琢磨在言辭辯論的時候好像也沒有被害人的代表到現場那這個部分我覺得將來如果有機會或許在其他的解釋裡面可以就在做補強"},{"start":1025.823,"end":1048.621,"text":"對於被害人的保護我覺得是就是我們大家共同的目標OK好很高興聽到您剛剛的這樣的意見那麼確實這一號判決我認為說之後有機會的話其實大法官還應該要做另外的判決再來做一些補充或是做調整的解釋那麼當然另外一個議題就是說在這次的現判八號現判八"},{"start":1050.943,"end":1078.537,"text":"的这个判决里面特别强调有关于法官一致决那这个也引起了很多学界还有民众社会上面的讨论那么特别是对在国民法官的审理案件上面如何的适用因为您刚刚有说这个大法官的宪判之八号解释他的设成不包含在国民法官审理案件但是事实上他的确会造成一个很严重的影响我们这样讲好了如果说今天国民法官"},{"start":1079.157,"end":1102.439,"text":"因為現在整個國民法官的法庭總共是九位六位是國民法官然後三位是職業法官如果今天六位國民法官做了一致決的判死決定另外的三位職業法官有兩位是贊成判處死刑其中一位是做出不同意判死的投票請問能不能判處死刑"},{"start":1103.7,"end":1124.676,"text":"根據憲判八的意旨就是職業法官三位都要一致所以也就是說等於一位職業法官的否定他就會否決了其餘的八位法官的意見是吧也就是說這一位職業法官他只是擁有龐大的否決權這是不是出現所謂反民主的問題"},{"start":1126.681,"end":1144.87,"text":"這個大法官在這個說明裡面他有提到一點就是說這是避免跟其他普通案件的職業法官的判決產生不一致的不平等的狀況因為我們的國民法官的案件也可能會轉軌成為普通就是由一般的法官來審理那就是對"},{"start":1147.031,"end":1175.29,"text":"我本身是認為大法官當時在做相關的判決的時候根本沒有思考到國民法官案件的問題他也可能不清楚國民法官是怎麼投票的那今天做成了這樣子的一個決定然後司法院也跟著附和這會造成就是說到底我們當初推國民法官的目的是什麼不是就希望國民法官能夠實現心中的正義嗎是不是有辦法實現正義嗎不行啊因為他只要被一位職業法官他就被打敗了"},{"start":1176.83,"end":1201.556,"text":"所以這個問題是很嚴重的好那接下來本期要再講就是說是剛剛有提到有關於就是其實蠻多人基本上現在對於大法官的憲法判決都有一些批評或是有表達不同的意見您認為這個人民您是否支持人民可以用公投也是用更大的民主的方式來表達對大法官的判決贊同與否的意見"},{"start":1203.496,"end":1229.247,"text":"公民投票法它的性質就是在學術上面有人認為簡單來說您知不支持嘛您知不支持人民可以通過公投的方式來表達對大法官判決的意見贊成與否的意見我支持還是不支持因為我的時間快到了公投法所規範是人民的創制跟覆決那就是"},{"start":1283.193,"end":1283.213,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":279,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（15時44分）主席好，在此有請被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：蘇法官，您好。您這次被提名為大法官和司法院副院長這兩項重要的職位，我想被提名為大法官，最重要的職責就是職司憲法的解釋，扮演憲法守護者的角色；另外一個位子也很重要，是要去領導司法院和所屬法院以及相關的司法人員，建立起司法獨立、公平審判的工作環境及制度。在您今天的報告當中有提到，本席也拜讀過了，您也知道現在人民對司法改革最深的期望，就是希望有一個獨立、公正、專業而且有效能的司法。可是，我想今天在此之前已經很多委員有提到，其實這些年來，人們對於臺灣司法的信賴度一直都是偏低。根據很多的民意調查，甚至是學術機構的調查，臺灣民眾信任法官會公正、公平審理案件的比例，大概差不多是20%、30%左右。最近在TVBS的民調當中，也針對賴清德總統就職週年各項施政表現進行民調，結果沒想到最後一名竟然是司法改革；說實在話，看到這樣的民調，我自己身為法律人，我也感到非常地痛心，這代表這麼多年來，甚至在蔡英文總統當時口口聲聲說要大力推動司改，但是沒有看到有任何明顯的成效，我不能說沒有成效，而是真的沒有明顯的成效。所以在這邊我想請教您，您自己本身擔任法官超過30年，您怎麼看待臺灣法院不被人民信任的這個問題？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：基本上，我覺得司法比較不是一個容易討好的工作，譬如說，我們審判會有一半的人會輸，或者是刑事案件是把被告關到監獄裡面，所以基本上是一個處罰或者是判別人輸贏的角色，這會有一半的人是不滿意的，這個是有可能，但是人民對司法的鞭策跟他們的感覺、他們的信賴感，我覺得這是我們一定要重視，並且要不斷地努力的。我剛剛有特別講過，早期我們是在追求審判獨立，現在我們追求的是司法為民，所以要以民意為依歸、要以人民的感受為感受。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝被提名人的回答。本席要在這邊強調，整個臺灣司法的法制系統，我們是效法日本跟德國，當然近些年來也參考不少美國的法制，我相信您一定知道，日本跟德國的國民對於他們司法的信賴度有多高，德國國民信賴德國司法系統的滿意度高達七成、八成，但是我們臺灣行憲這麼多年，而且不同屆的司法院長也都大力推動司改，但是司法信任度是每下愈況。我想對於一般人而言，評價司法公正最簡單的方式就是看到底司法有沒有雙標、是不是法律之前人人平等、是不是王子犯法與庶民同罪，我覺得這是一個非常簡單的指標，您自己擔任刑庭法官多年，您過去曾經遇到過停審的案件嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：停審？"],["翁委員曉玲：對，就是停止審判的案件。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：幾乎沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：幾乎沒有？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：對，除非是當事人生病很嚴重的那種。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。所以您自己本身在過去30年的生涯當中，您沒有遇到過停審的案件？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：當事人生病了，他沒有辦法進行訴訟，這種情況有。"],["翁委員曉玲：有，大概最長是停審多久的時間？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：停到他的身體狀況可以，所以我們大概會定期的去函詢醫院。"],["翁委員曉玲：大概平均呢？所以你們也會定期去……"],["蘇素娥被提名人：對、對，件數不多。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那我在這邊跟您講，臺灣其實有出現一個大概舉世無雙的案子，就是有停審超過10年的案子，甚至本席去跟矯正署調資料，還有人保外就醫超過二十幾年的，為什麼會有這樣的一個情況？我想陳水扁的案子，你應該非常清楚，他從2015年就開始聲請保外就醫，2015年5月13號他就聲請裁定停止審判，但是這個案子因為當時是犯了洗錢罪，這個案子就一拖多年，北院合議庭在去年5月20號，認定陳水扁犯的這個洗錢案的追訴時效已經過期，所以就判陳水扁免訴。當然現在這個案子還在上訴當中，最新是現在高院已經受理也完成分案了，還要再針對到底是不是免訴的議題再繼續進行審理，可是您知道陳水扁到現在還有幾個案子是停審當中嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：這個數字我沒有特別計算。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在還有3個案子，所以為什麼我剛剛講人民對於司法會不信賴？以陳水扁這個停審案來講就可以知道，有哪一個臺灣的受刑人可以像陳水扁這樣生龍活虎然後常常在外面演講而且趴趴走？一個被告可以停審這麼久，而且甚至有一個案子都已經停審拖過16年的時間，然後竟然被判免訴，那接下來的3個案子是不是也一樣會拖過去？你未來假設有幸能夠成為司法院副院長，您要怎麼去改變這樣的情況，能夠讓人民認為其實司法不是雙標，不是遇到權貴就轉彎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法院會裁定停止審判應該就是有依據的，譬如說有醫生出具的證明等等，因為這幾個案子現在都還在繫屬中，所以對繫屬中的案件我們就先不評論。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想在這裡我就是提出這個案子，要讓被提名人知道為什麼人民對於司法不信任，這就是一個活生生的例子。","接下來我要再講的就是，賴清德總統日前演講有提到在五五憲草或是1946年所通過的中華民國憲法，臺灣沒有派員參加，請問這句話是符合歷史的史實嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：這個部分是總統的發言，他應該有他自己的依據，我們也不便評論。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，但是這個是不是事實？臺灣是不是真的沒有制憲代表去？當時臺灣省沒有派制憲代表去參加制憲？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：據我在網路上面看到的有不同的說法，或許利用這個機會，大家會去找出相關的史實來進行討論，我覺得是還不錯的機會可以討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：蘇法官，您接下來就可能或為司法院副院長，而且要當大法官，您應該要了解制憲的歷史。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：明明臺灣當時就有省議會，就有選出制憲代表參加南京的制憲，您還說有不同的意見，我在這邊真的覺得很不可思議，我希望你要能夠了解這個就是事實，臺灣省當時就是有派出制憲國民大會代表去參與制憲的會議，這就是事實。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是……"],["翁委員曉玲：賴清德今天說錯話，他不更正、道歉就算了，但是您作為一個副院長的被提名人，同時也是大法官的被提名人，竟然連我們的制憲史都不清楚，本席感到非常地訝異。接下來我要再請教您，賴清德總統曾經說過中華民國憲法是災難，這句話您認同嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：中華民國憲法是我們要守護的對象。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以即便它可能有些不完美的地方，但是我們還是要全力守護中華民國憲法。在這樣的情況之下，我想請教，作為大法官、作為憲法的守護者，解釋憲法當然要忠於憲法，而憲法涉及國家定位的問題，請問在中華民國憲法的架構底下，目前是如何界定兩岸關係，您如何界定兩岸關係？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：憲法裡面規定兩岸關係就是另以法律定之，在增修條文第十一條是規定另以法律定之，所以我們後來才有兩岸關係條例的訂定，兩岸關係條例要怎麼訂定，因為它比較涉及很多方面，所以我們是尊重……"],["翁委員曉玲：不好意思打斷您的話，簡單來說目前兩岸關係到底是兩區關係還是兩國關係？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：這個是關於政治問題跟統治行為，並不是大法官解釋的範圍。"],["翁委員曉玲：哇！我感到很訝異，蘇法官，這個這麼清楚，是訂定在我們中華民國憲法還有兩岸人民關係條例裡面的規定，您竟然說這個是屬於政治問題，這不是政治問題吧！","這是非常單純的憲法問題與法律問題，在國家統一之前，中華民國憲法就已經明確地講到自由地區與大陸地區，在兩岸人民關係條例裡面也是講臺灣地區與大陸地區，連這樣子基本的概念您都不敢說、不敢認同我們現在的國家定位嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：不是，法律的規定我們一定是遵守的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你認為我們是不是屬於一國兩區的憲法？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：憲法並沒有這樣一個明白的文字。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，憲法裡面現在的概念就是中華民國憲法，但是我們涵蓋大陸地區與臺灣地區？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：關於領土的部分確實大法官曾經有一個解釋是說我們不解釋，就是我們不介入，這是釋憲實務……"],["翁委員曉玲：好、好、好，我真的是感到很訝異，你連這樣一個簡單的命題都可以……很怕會得罪賴清德，所以你不敢承認我們中華民國憲法現在所涵蓋的就是大陸地區與自由的臺灣地區。","接下來我要再問，最近出現了一個新名詞，過去在講立法院所制定通過的法案，一般民眾可能會講是不是屬於民生法案、改革法案或國安法案等等，或是有些人稱所謂的福國利民法案，但是最近賴清德在團結第三講當中，提出了一個新的類型叫做「政治對抗法案」，並且請大家看看現在立法院所通過的法案到底有沒有福國利民法案，還是政治對抗法案。我想請教您，您認為什麼樣類型的法案是屬於政治對抗法案？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我對於總統所提的「政治對抗法案」沒有了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以他的團結三講，你到現在也還沒有去看？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就政治對抗法案的部分，我沒有很清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來我就請教你，以下幾個法案，你認為是屬於福國利民法案還是政治對抗法案？首先，軍人待遇條例的修正，我們這次修正軍人待遇條例，增加志願役及義務役的加給待遇，你認為這是民生法案嗎？是有利於軍人的法案嗎？屬於福國利民法案嗎？還是屬於政治對抗法案？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我覺得它就是一個三讀通過的法案，然後對軍人是有利的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，對警察人員人事條例我們這次也修法提高警消人員的月退所得替代率，這是福國利民法案還是政治對抗法案？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我跟剛剛的答案是一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：跟剛剛一樣的。那財政收支劃分法的修法是調整中央與地方稅收分配的比例，這是政治對抗法案嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：這個會涉及到權力分立、垂直分立的部分，因為我自己沒有財政的背景，所以如果委員要詢問的話，我會再去了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：另外，憲法訴訟法的修法是提高大法官的開會人數門檻與作成違憲判決的評議門檻，這樣的修法是政治對抗法案嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：要看怎麼定義什麼叫政治對抗。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是賴清德總統所提出的，他認為我剛剛講的這些法案都是政治對抗法案，甚至連公職人員選罷法修法規定連署人要附上身分證影本也是叫做政治對抗法案。如果這些都是叫政治對抗法案的話，大法官在面對這些政治問題的時候，您認為是不是應該要自制、退縮而不宜介入審查？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：確實，大法官在面對政治問題的話，就之前的釋憲實務是認為政治問題不要介入，政治問題就是政治解決。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，謝謝您剛剛的說明。賴清德總統很清楚地把剛剛的那些法案都視為是政治法案，既然是政治法案涉及政治問題，我希望大法官之後在審查到底這些案件要不要受理的時候，應該要注意這些是屬於政治問題，大法官應該要自制、節制，不宜介入審查。","接下來我還要再請教您，您在過去長年審判生涯當中，您曾經判過死刑嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：大概有幾件死刑案？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：如果是主審的是1件，如果是陪席的也有，有一些因為已經太久了所以不記得。"],["翁委員曉玲：我了解，OK，大概反正也不多嘛！撇開法官的身分，您個人的立場是支持廢死嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我剛剛有回答過，廢死不應該是一個非黑即白的問題，然後我站在法官的立場，我是根據法律還有證據判斷。"],["翁委員曉玲：了解。因為這次的113年憲判字第8號所謂實質廢死的判決其實引起了民怨，您自己本身怎麼去看待憲判字第8號的判決？您認為大法官所做的相關解釋，您都接受嗎？還是有沒有一些不同的意見？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：對於憲8，剛剛有提到因為我是其中一個案子的承審法官，所以對於憲8可能比較不適合發表評論。"],["翁委員曉玲：嗯？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就是我們承審案件的法官對於相關的案件……"],["翁委員曉玲：大法官的判決都已經作成了，也沒有什麼好不適合評斷的。不過本席看到您在自己的自傳當中裡面有特別講到，你非常重視被告與被害人及家屬訴訟權益的衡平問題，在這次113年憲判字第8號的判決裡面，要求各級法院的合議庭法官一致決，對於精神障礙或是其他心智缺陷者不能判處死刑，即便是發生在判決之後或是等待執行期間也是不能夠判決死刑。外界普遍都認為這一號憲法判決嚴重傾向被告還有殺人犯，你認為這樣的判決符合您所謂的要把被告與被害人的訴訟權益衡平的標準嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：憲8這號判決裡面確實對被害人的部分比較少著墨，在言詞辯論的時候好像也沒有被害人的代表到現場，這個部分我覺得將來如果有機會，或許在其他的解釋裡面可以再補強。對於被害人的保護，我覺得是我們大家共同的目標。"],["翁委員曉玲：OK，好，很高興聽到您剛剛這樣的意見，確實這一號判決，我認為之後有機會的話，其實大法官應該在另外的判決再來做一些補充或是做調整的解釋。","當然另外一個議題就是在這次憲判字第8號的判決裡面特別強調有關於法官一致決，這也引起了學界還有民眾以及社會上很多的討論，特別是對於國民法官的審理案件上如何適用，因為您剛剛有說大法官憲判字第8號解釋的射程不包含國民法官審理案件，但事實上的確會造成很嚴重的影響。我們這樣講好了，因為現在整個國民法官的法庭總共是9位，6位是國民法官，3位是職業法官，如果今天6位國民法官做了一致決的判死決定，另外3位職業法官有2位是贊成判處死刑，其中1位是做出不同意判死的投票，請問能不能判處死刑？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：根據憲判8的意旨，就是職業法官3位都要一致。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以也就是等於1位職業法官的否定，就會否決了其餘8位法官的意見，是吧？也就是說這1位職業法官其實擁有龐大的否決權，這是不是出現所謂反民主的問題？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：大法官在這個說明裡面有提到一點，就是避免跟其他普通案件職業法官的判決產生不一致的不平等狀況，因為我們的國民法官案件也可能會轉軌成為普通……就是由一般的法官來審理，就是要一致。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。本席是認為大法官當時在做相關判決的時候，根本沒有思考到國民法官案件的問題，他可能也不清楚國民法官是怎麼投票的，今天作成了這樣的一個決定，司法院也跟著附和，這會造成到底我們當初推國民法官的目的是什麼，不就是希望國民法官能夠實現心中的正義嗎？事實上有辦法實現正義嗎？不行啊，因為只要一位職業法官，就會被打敗了，所以這個問題是很嚴重的。","接下來本席要再講，剛剛有提到其實蠻多人對於大法官的憲法判決都有一些批評或是有表達不同的意見，您是否支持人民可以用公投，也就是用更大的民主方式，表達對大法官判決贊同與否的意見？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：公民投票法它的性質在學術上面，有人認為……"],["翁委員曉玲：簡單來說，您支不支持嘛，您支不支持人民可以透過公投的方式表達對大法官判決贊成與否的意見？支持還是不支持？因為我的時間快到了。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：公投法所規範的是人民的創制跟複決，而重大政策……"],["翁委員曉玲：可能你也認為是不應該，如果你認為人民不可以用公投來表達對於大法官判決的意見，那麼大法官如何能夠聆聽最新的民意？我希望我們的大法官要接地氣，解釋憲法必須要理解我們國民的法感情以及現在社會上對於公平正義的想法是什麼，不能夠自己躲在大法官的憲法法庭裡面，完全拒民意於千里之外，這是很危險的！而我覺得公投就是一個最好的表達意見方式，大法官可以知道，而公投不見得會去拘束大法官憲法判決，所以本席希望，假設您有機會能夠擔任大法官的話，應該要能了解接地氣是很重要的事情，謝謝！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的詢問。也謝謝被提名人的說明，謝謝，請再喝口水。","報告全院委員會，我們休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後我們請林月琴委員詢問。","休息（16時5分）","繼續開會（16時16分）"],["主席：報告全院委員會，我們現在繼續開會，進行委員詢問。","接下來請林月琴委員詢問。吳宗憲委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d58759327d0ffa5cf79914535bb497189efe2935a81d6c80c6241d823e46ab58e485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"15:22:33 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,女性已經來到1156位,男性是1043位,其實女性來到52.6%,"},{"start":335.151,"end":355.158,"text":"而右邊的這個圖表是各級法院的女性法官的占比在這十年間也都大幅的躍升所以如果您有機會可以成為我們未來領導的副院長您如何再深化在司法領域的性別主流化的意識呢簡單回答"},{"start":355.718,"end":371.29,"text":"是 就是在相關的會議就是相關各個法院有各式各樣的會議我們都會要求要符合性別主流化的規定然後在法官學院的課程裡面也都每年都有加入這樣的課程"},{"start":371.823,"end":388.135,"text":"而且盡可能也要把著更多優秀的女性司法人員事實上現在女性法官的人數好像也是非常高嗎是超過一半超過一半非常好所以這是比較進步性的議題我非常期待您能夠未來扮演重要的角色下一頁"},{"start":389.056,"end":417.393,"text":"那現在要進入一些政治題的深水區喔這一頁同樣也是我去年在追尋張文貞院長提名人的時候我提出來的Elena Coggan您應當對她也不陌生喔她是美國第四位的女性大法官當時歐巴馬提名的時候呢提名她為大法官候選人的時候基於政黨不同立場共和黨也對她做出非常多"},{"start":418.234,"end":442.158,"text":"不公允的批判把他描述成一個非常激進的激進主張者激進主義者但是我非常推崇他這句話您應當有讀過這應該是法律人的金句喔也就是my politics would be must be have to becompletely separate from my judgment"},{"start":442.83,"end":457.189,"text":"我个人的政治判断我纵使有我的政治思想我有我个人的一些偏好主张但是完全会与我在专业的法律的判断上是完全必须分离的"},{"start":457.87,"end":484.649,"text":"這就是我剛剛說的我們要選擇的不是一個百分之百聽話的大法官所有的主張跟民進黨執政黨或跟吳斯堯一樣的大法官我們要的是您可以彰顯您的法律專業在每一個案件的判斷上你可以去有獨立判斷的空間而社會或是國會就要給予我們的司法人員這樣子獨立判斷的空間您非常同意嗎對不對好那下一頁"},{"start":485.45,"end":492.437,"text":"而當中一個很重要的基準就是克尊憲法左邊呢是我當初"},{"start":494.777,"end":518.613,"text":"擔任立法委員我宣誓的誓詞每四年一屆當我有幸連任我一定會對著國旗來宣讀我的誓詞於是以製程恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權不徇私舞弊不營求私利不受受賄賂重點來了不干預司法"},{"start":519.568,"end":542.987,"text":"就是每一個立法委員在宣誓的時候我們向國人對著憲法的宣誓我們絕對不會用政治力去干預司法同樣的如果您能夠擔任未來的副院長您的誓詞當中也一樣萬本歸宗我們要克尊國家的憲法大法官是憲法的守護者下頁"},{"start":544.088,"end":557.859,"text":"只是非常遺憾這一屆的立法院組成一年半基於憲政機關平等相違的權力分立的原則卻被立法院大幅的強害了"},{"start":559.328,"end":583.238,"text":"禍害了也就是不斷的去彰顯一個國會最大國會優位的思維反映在立法院不管行使人事權預算權乃至於法律案都讓各個憲政機關的憲政忠誠義務沒有辦法去煽驚所以我們覺得不容司法受到政治的干預"},{"start":584.739,"end":612.564,"text":"我們不容司法受到政治的箝制我也希望您有這樣子的背膀面對任何的政治的威嚇我們都要能夠挺住因為我們克尊憲法而憲法告訴我們沒有誰比較大平等相違的憲政義務大家是平等的所以下一頁我為什麼說這是內憂外患的一個時期我們碰到了"},{"start":614,"end":624.611,"text":"現在非常險峻的在野黨對國家並不忠誠對憲法並不忠誠對人民並不忠誠他們一再的挑戰司法也一再的去挑戰憲法"},{"start":627.851,"end":645.003,"text":"違憲有兩種一種是維護憲法但他們偏偏選擇了違反憲法而沒有司法迫害我們這麼多年來做司法改革我們都希望司法透明公開公正獨立的審判"},{"start":646.104,"end":666.134,"text":"我們都不容現在的進步台灣法治台灣有司法迫害的情勢但現在在台灣的政治權發生的是迫害司法的這種作為下一頁我想看看就人事權的部分這是史上延宕最久"},{"start":667.074,"end":683.235,"text":"不管是2024年大法官的同意權的行使延宕了95天2025年總統再次提名到現在也延宕了74天我非常期待這一次能夠順利行使不要再讓我們的司法單位"},{"start":684.156,"end":710.744,"text":"最高的司法院沒有辦法如常運作下一頁剛講的是人事權被杯葛被延宕了更嚴厲的挑戰就是立法權來強害司法權然後呢有非常多的違憲法案這邊都是我們已經具體的去申請釋憲但您放心我不會要求您對每一個議案來表達你認為它違憲與否"},{"start":713.325,"end":733.348,"text":"我說了 我不會像黃國昌這樣我們不是用政治力去壓迫每一個被提名人被強制的表態我也不會因為你認為哪些法案違憲或不違憲來去貶抑了或去左右了我對您的法律專業的尊重跟判斷"},{"start":734.431,"end":747.997,"text":"我希望是这样因为宪法法庭是一个专业的组成而事实上这些政治议程上的视线案只占我们所有宪法法庭受理的视线案的比例非常低"},{"start":748.933,"end":772.285,"text":"一般98% 99%都是人民的申請案他並沒有政黨意識只有1% 2%是可能涉及憲法機關當中的權力分立的問題所以我們再次呼籲在野黨的委員不要因為這些政治在可能在對立或對壘的釋憲案"},{"start":774.426,"end":795.054,"text":"的政治判斷來左右影響他對於大法官人事同意權的行使因為這些案子只有2% 1%你們的專業應當更要用在98%的人民權利義務的申請案您同意吧好那我們有很高的共識下一頁"},{"start":796.257,"end":821.214,"text":"另外也非常不幸的是非常多的政黨跟政治人物不斷的鼓動民粹去就個案來包圍司法機關您作為司法從業人員您認為這樣的行為要被譴責還是應當節制還是可以容忍我覺得應該要給司法獨立審判的空間"},{"start":822.045,"end":840.671,"text":"而且這是違法的規範司法為什麼司法機關是作為極有的禁制區就是為了讓司法從業人員能夠獨立判斷不受民粹跟社會輿論的影響下一頁而更讓人可異的"},{"start":841.491,"end":862.058,"text":"再也立委甚至去盲挺對於我們司法人員的安全跟權益造成侵害的這種暴力言論不論是透過肉搜、獵巫、公審或威脅都造成我們守護司法人員沒有辦法做到"},{"start":862.998,"end":887.786,"text":"我們要守護司法人員您作為可能的司法院的副院長貝提名人您怎麼給我們司法人員一個喊話一個支持一個鼓勵不受這樣子的威嚇司法院永遠是大家最堅強的後盾我們捍衛審判獨立跟以這個公正公平法院為這個審判的核心思想永遠不會變"},{"start":889.437,"end":896.863,"text":"對 我們要守護司法人員而不是放任縱容他們受到社會的霸凌"},{"start":897.935,"end":917.71,"text":"下一頁剛剛有委員當然會focus在法庭直播我想難得看到的審檢辯學還有醫事鑑定的團體跟民團對於急救章沒有討論倉促通過的法院組織法同聲反對"},{"start":919.091,"end":937.492,"text":"我更反對把一個重要的司法制度的改革作為政治交換的籌碼很遺憾就發生在立法院半個月前所以說對於法庭直播這件事下眼無論如何即便在朝野協商"},{"start":938.683,"end":960.02,"text":"的階段因為這個案子是委員會沒有討論近乎二讀最專業該討論的司法法治文會沒有辦法針對法院組織法法庭直播的部分來進行深究探討只能夠在韓院長主持的朝野協商短短的讓司法院的代表副秘書長表達大概兩分鐘左右的時間司法院"},{"start":961.161,"end":985.255,"text":"一直持保留跟反對的態度因為現在配套沒有做足倉促上路會造成很多嚴重司法人權侵害的後果但是無論如何惡法通過了惡法易法啦您認為未來如何在這個惡法上路之後您會鼓勵或者是期待行政院提醒復議嗎"},{"start":987.378,"end":1010.21,"text":"行政院是不是要提復一是尊重他們的職權所以如果說復一也是會輸了坦白講在這個國會生態當中復一案也完全沒有理性討論的空間但是未來如果這樣子的制度就是被迫上路他也已經被迫上路你們作為一個制度要去做很多配套的這個司法院你們該如何來進行"},{"start":1011.766,"end":1038.882,"text":"據我所知司法行政廳的幕僚他們已經開始在草擬司法相關的執法那要盡可能對於我們擔憂的司法人權的傷害對於訴訟當事人他自己權利的保障絕對不能被剝奪更不容透過這種直播的方式來造成全民公審的負面的影響他真的非常的可怕好最後下一頁"},{"start":1039.562,"end":1056.66,"text":"我其實後面有很多對於我們司法院的內部的挑戰我就非常簡單的跟您分享我的觀點我們一定要為司法人員減壓包括增補人力包括減少案源包括防度濫訴"},{"start":1058.001,"end":1076.099,"text":"加速推動訴訟外的紛爭解決的機制也包括要導入AI的科技來協助我們的人員分擔還有對於司法人員的心理調適的假期其實我非常的開心我讀了您的書面報告大概您都有提到了下一頁"},{"start":1076.96,"end":1097.953,"text":"司法人員呢20年還補不齊我強力的主張跟要求跟期待我們現在需求人力還有5536位真的20年也補不齊下一頁所以我期待如果您能夠容認我們未來司法院的副院長無論如何要發揮您過去在國民法官法的時候您跟社會溝通"},{"start":1098.854,"end":1119.9,"text":"您跟國會遊說很有經驗您也要強化跟行政院的人事部門來針對總原額法的修法來突破一萬五千人司法人員上線這個您可以Promise努力去做是的我一定努力好那下一個許宗麗前院長的未竟之功也就是如何能夠來落實這個訴訟程序金字塔的制度讓"},{"start":1120.6,"end":1134.919,"text":"一審二審不要翻來覆去來來去去造成司法資源的浪費對於訴訟當事人他也疲於奔命當然對我們的司法人員他永遠在做同樣的routine的工作對於司法的效能跟品質沒有提升所以說下一頁"},{"start":1135.72,"end":1154.888,"text":"我具體的這裡是反映出來就幾年了我們的案件大量提升就您的報告也提到十年間司法總體收案量增加將近三成而未結的案件量增加百分之一百一十一所以呢下一頁我期許您落實二零一二一年"},{"start":1155.828,"end":1182.345,"text":"立法院修訂完成的民事訴訟法要對於濫訴的部分該駁回該裁定就要支持法官勇敢去做不要基於害怕考積你要支持啊不要因為這法官擔心他如果駁回了人家的這個濫訴的案件然後會影響他的考積這個部分你可以承諾來具體達到嗎法律的規定我們一定支持好那在下一頁"},{"start":1183.286,"end":1193.656,"text":"那你們是不是同意你能夠加速在上任之後來制定調解法針對這個ADR的制度來解決這個案源過多的問題"},{"start":1195.503,"end":1220.498,"text":"這個是大家一個都相當同意的用訴訟外解決紛爭的機制然後現在也是一直在推不只是民事訴訟刑事訴訟也有還有家事我期待你們可以加速未來立法院有了新民意的立法院也能夠來支持最後導入科技我們過去所上路的智慧化裁判草稿自動生成系統似乎受阻了是不是還會強化來推進"},{"start":1223.172,"end":1229.44,"text":"這個部分在有一次司法院的這個研討會上面有討論就是 AI 的部分到底要用"},{"start":1234.646,"end":1255.651,"text":"我知道還有爭議執行上一條的法律問題但是畢竟這是水中科技來取代的任命有且不凡我想司法院不要放棄行令最後一項我們直接執行到也就是我們的心理調試下我已經成功徵詢所有的共同人能夠獲得一年三天的"},{"start":1256.271,"end":1283.644,"text":"我希望未來的執法人員高壓的執法人員也能夠來適用他們的盛情調治價值期待以上的舉動努力來制衡它我們能一起加油如你所說的要建構一個獨立、公正、專業、效能的執法我們一起努力我們一起抵禦很多外部不當的政治戰爭作為一個白日人要有背包"},{"start":1286.442,"end":1289.675,"text":"好谢谢谢谢谢谢五四一二位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（15時22分）院長，有請蘇副院長被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人再次說明。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：您辛苦了。我今天的破題就是，我們司法面臨著內外交迫的挑戰：外有社會或來自政治力的挑戰，內有我們需要改革、為司法人員減壓的困境，所以如何在這個內憂外患的司法險境當中突圍、能夠重生？在這個重建司法的關鍵時刻，我還是要再一次地說，我希望今天站在這裡提出質詢的立法委員們都要相對自制。","我想，我們的司法正義不應當成為政黨惡鬥的犧牲品，我真心地期待。剛剛前幾位委員的詢問我聽了真的是無比地遺憾，一再地針對個案做誘導式的詢答，或強迫你們針對政治立場表態。我吳思瑤的立場是，我認為不見得要求針對每一個政黨提出來詢問你們的題目，你們的答案要跟我設想的一模一樣。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們要選擇的不是一個聽話的大法官，不是一個思想完全跟我個人一模一樣的大法官，而是如何在多元、民主、包容的臺灣社會彰顯司法的獨立、公正跟判斷，這才是我們今天站在這裡非常重要的意義。","我再說一次，有媒體等會兒要採訪我，針對上午的院長被提名人，在黃國昌委員的詢答當中有提到，這個院長被提名人對於部分執政黨認為涉及違憲的法案，他認為恐怕沒有違憲。我認為這樣的回答，我不會因此而不同意他，認為他的司法專業不足、法律專業不足。我再說一次，我們不是要選擇聽話的大法官，我們不是要選擇跟政黨意識形態或者是對於案件的觀點、政策的觀點百分之百一模一樣的大法官，我們要的是在不同的多元思維之下，還能夠彰顯法律專業及司法正義的大法官。我今天站在這裡，我要用這樣子的態度跟您對話，我更要忍不住的說，國人對司法的滿意度確實普遍還有待努力，但是剛剛在這裡處處為難您的立法委員，民眾黨的政黨支持度只有10%吧！而且他們在5月的民調不滿意度高達54%，一個自己政黨的滿意度都不高的政黨也應當反求諸己，而不是一再在這裡撻伐別人、為難別人。","這是我在去年針對我非常期待我們能夠誕生首位司法院女院長的張文貞院長被提名人詢答的時候準備的PPT。你有看過這部影片嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：還沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：NHK的大戲，建議您可以看一看，你一定會有很深的感觸。這是三淵嘉子的故事，他是日本的首位女律師，也是日本的首位女法官。它講述了在一個性別禁忌的年代，女性如何可以成為法律專業的佼佼者。而中華民國臺灣已經產生了女總統，但非常遺憾，去年大法官院長同意權行使的時候，張文貞院長被提名人是被封殺的，當然我們尊重這個結果，但我們有遺珠之憾，張文貞沒有辦法榮任院長，我非常期待蘇素娥可以成為我們首位司法院女副院長，我給您無比的祝福。","我們的憲法法庭確實女性的比例一直在提升，如果以2024年卸任及現任大法官來看，其實女性與男性是1比2，如果這一次我們的提名能夠順利的話，將來到女性7位，男性8位，是1比1。所以要讓性別的憲法重量也能夠達到性別平權，我再一次期待您可以為我們性別平權、性別主流化的司法行政、司法院領導帶來新的風氣。","這邊我也具體跟您分享，不曉得你有沒有注意到，我們在司法從業人員的法官人數，女性已經來到1,156位，男性是1,043位，女性來到52.6%。右邊這個圖表是各級法院女性法官的占比，在這10年間也都大幅躍升。如果您有機會可以成為我們未來領導的副院長，您如何再深化司法領域的性別主流化意識呢？簡單回答。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，各個法院有各式各樣的會議，我們都會要求要符合性別主流化的規定，然後在法官學院的課程裡面，每年也都有加入這樣的課程。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且盡可能也要拔擢更多優秀的女性司法人員。事實上，現在女性法官的人數好像也是非常高嘛！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，超過一半。"],["吳委員思瑤：超過一半，非常好！這是比較進步性的議題，我非常期待您未來能夠扮演重要的角色。","現在要進入一些政治題的深水區。這同樣也是我去年在垂詢張文貞院長被提名人的時候提出來的，Elena Kagan，您應當對他也不陌生，他是美國第四位女性大法官，當時歐巴馬提名他為大法官候選人的時候，基於政黨的不同立場，共和黨也對他做出非常多不公允的批判，把他描述成一個非常激進的激進主張者、激進主義者，但是我非常推崇他這句話，您應當有讀過，這應該是法律人的金句，也就是My politics would be,must be, have to be, completely separate from my judgment.我個人的政治判斷，我縱使有我的政治思想，我有我個人的一些偏好、主張，但是與我在專業的法律判斷上是完全必須分離的。這就是我剛剛說的，我們要選擇的不是一個百分之百聽話的大法官，所有的主張跟民進黨、執政黨或跟吳思瑤一樣的大法官，我們要的是您可以彰顯您的法律專業，在每一個案件的判斷上，你可以具有獨立判斷的空間，而社會或是國會就要給予我們的司法人員這樣子獨立判斷的空間，您非常同意嘛！對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，而當中一個很重要的基準就是恪遵憲法。簡報左邊是我當初擔任立法委員宣誓的誓詞，每四年一屆，當我有幸連任，我一定會對著國旗宣讀我的誓詞：「余誓以至誠，恪遵憲法，效忠國家，代表人民依法行使職權，不徇私舞弊，不營求私利，不受授賄賂」，重點來了，就是不干預司法，這是每一個立法委員在宣誓的時候，我們向國人對著憲法的宣誓，我們絕對不會用政治力去干預司法。同樣的，如果您能夠擔任未來的副院長，您的誓詞當中也一樣萬本歸宗，我們要恪遵國家的憲法，大法官是憲法的守護者。","只是非常遺憾，這一屆的立法院組成一年半，基於憲政機關平等相維的權力分立原則，卻被立法院大幅的戕害了、迫害了，也就是不斷的彰顯一個國會最大、國會優位的思維，反映在立法院不管行使人事權、預算權乃至於法律案，都讓各個憲政機關的憲政忠誠義務沒有辦法去善盡。所以我們絕對不容司法受到政治的干預，我們不容司法受到政治的箝制，我也希望您有這樣子的臂膀，面對任何政治的威嚇，我們都要能夠挺住，因為我們恪遵憲法，而憲法告訴我們，沒有誰比較大，平等相維的憲政義務，大家是平等的。","我為什麼說這是內憂外患的一個時期？我們碰到現在非常險峻的在野黨，對國家並不忠誠、對憲法並不忠誠、對人民並不忠誠，他們一再的挑戰司法，也一再的挑戰憲法，「 eq \\o\\ad(\\s\\up5(ㄨ),\\s\\do5(ㄟ))ˊ」憲有兩種，一種是維護憲法，但他們偏偏選擇了違反憲法。而沒有司法迫害，我們這麼多年來做司法改革，我們都希望司法透明、公開、公正、獨立的審判，我們都不容現在的進步臺灣、法治臺灣有司法迫害的情事，但現在在臺灣的政治圈發生的是迫害司法的這種作為。","就人事權的部分，這是史上延宕最久，不管是2024年大法官同意權的行使延宕了95天，2025年總統再次提名，到現在也延宕了74天，我非常期待這一次能夠順利行使，不要再讓我們的司法單位、最高的司法院沒有辦法如常運作。","剛剛講的是人事權被杯葛、被延宕了，更嚴厲的挑戰就是立法權戕害司法權，有非常多的違憲法案，簡報上的都是我們已經具體去聲請釋憲，但您放心，我不會要求您對每一個議案表達你認為它違憲與否。我說了，我不會像黃國昌這樣，我們不是用政治力去壓迫每一個被提名人被強制的表態，我也不會因為你認為哪些法案違憲或不違憲，來貶抑或左右我對您法律專業的尊重跟判斷。我希望是這樣，因為憲法法庭是一個專業的組成，事實上，這些政治議程上的釋憲案占我們所有憲法法庭受理釋憲案的比例非常低，一般98%、99%都是人民的聲請案，並沒有政黨意識，只有1%、2%可能涉及憲法機關當中權力分立的問題。所以我們再次呼籲在野黨的委員，不要因為對這些可能在政治上對立或對壘的釋憲案的政治判斷，而左右、影響對於大法官人事同意權的行使，因為這些案子只有2%、1%，你們的專業應當更要用在98%與人民權利義務相關的聲請案，您同意吧？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那我們有很高的共識。另外，也非常不幸的是，非常多的政黨及政治人物不斷地鼓動民粹就個案來包圍司法機關，作為司法從業人員，您認為這樣的行為要被譴責、應當節制，還是可以容忍？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我覺得應該要給司法獨立審判的空間。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且依規範這是違法的。為什麼司法機關要作為集遊的禁制區？就是為了讓司法從業人員能夠獨立判斷，不受民粹及社會輿論的影響。","更讓人可議的是，在野立委甚至去盲挺對於我們司法人員的安全及權益造成侵害的這種暴力言論，不論是透過肉搜、獵巫、公審或威脅，都讓守護司法人員沒有辦法做到。我們要守護司法人員，您作為司法院副院長被提名人，怎麼給我們司法人員喊話、支持、鼓勵，讓他們不受這樣的威嚇？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：司法院永遠是大家最堅強的後盾，我們捍衛審判獨立，以公正、公平法院為審判的核心思想永遠不會變。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，我們要守護司法人員，而不是放任、縱容他們受到社會的霸凌。","剛剛有委員當然會focus在法庭直播，我想難得看到審、檢、辯、學、醫事鑑定的團體及民團，對於急就章、沒有討論就倉卒通過的法院組織法同聲反對，我更反對把一個重要的司法制度改革作為政治交換的籌碼，很遺憾，就發生在立法院、半個月前。","對於法庭直播這件事，無論如何，即便在朝野協商的階段，因為這個案子是委員會沒有討論就逕付二讀，最專業、該討論的司法及法制委員會沒有辦法針對法院組織法法庭直播的部分進行深究、探討，只能夠在韓院長主持的朝野協商中，短短地讓司法院代表──副秘書長表達大概兩分鐘左右的時間，司法院一直持保留及反對的態度，因為現在配套沒有做足，倉卒上路會造成很多嚴重司法人權侵害的後果。但是無論如何，惡法通過了，惡法亦法，未來在這個惡法上路之後，您會鼓勵或者是期待行政院提起覆議嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：行政院是不是要提覆議……"],["吳委員思瑤：尊重他們？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是行政院的職權，所以基本上我是不能做判斷。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。如果覆議，也是會輸啦，坦白講，在這個國會生態當中，覆議案也完全沒有理性討論的空間。但是未來如果這樣子的制度就是被迫上路，也已經被迫上路，作為在制度上要去做很多配套的司法院，你們該如何進行？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：據我所知，司法行政廳的幕僚他們已經開始在草擬相關的子法。"],["吳委員思瑤：要盡可能考量我們所擔憂對於司法人權的傷害，還有訴訟當事人自己權利的保障絕對不能被剝奪，更不容透過這種直播的方式造成全民公審的負面影響，它真的非常可怕。","最後，其實後面還有很多對於司法院內部的挑戰，我就非常簡單的跟您分享我的觀點。我們一定要為司法人員減壓，包括增補人力，包括減少案源，包括防杜濫訴，加速推動訴訟外紛爭解決的機制，也包括要導入AI的科技來協助我們的人員減輕負擔，還有對於司法人員的心理調適假期。其實我非常的開心，我讀了您的書面報告，大概您都有提到了。","司法人員的人力20年還補不齊，對此，我強力的主張、要求跟期待，我們現在的需求人力還有5,536位，真的20年也補不齊。所以我期待如果您能夠榮任未來司法院的副院長，無論如何要發揮您過去在推動國民法官法時跟社會溝通、跟國會遊說的經驗，您也要強化跟行政院人事部門針對總員額法的修法來突破1萬5,000人的司法員額上限，這個您可以promise努力去做？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是的，我一定努力。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。接下來是許宗力前院長的未竟之功，也就是如何能夠落實訴訟程序金字塔的制度，讓一審、二審不要翻來覆去、來來去去，不但造成司法資源的浪費，也使訴訟當事人疲於奔命，當然，對我們的司法人員來說，他永遠在做同樣的、routine的工作，這樣對於司法的效能跟品質沒有提升。這裡的數字具體反映出來這幾年的案件大量提升，您的報告也提到，十年間司法總體收案量增加將近三成，而未結案量增加111%。所以我期許您落實2012年立法院修訂完成的民事訴訟法，對於濫訴的部分，該裁定駁回的就要支持法官勇敢去做，不要因為害怕考績，你要支持啊，不要讓法官擔心如果駁回人家濫訴的案件就會影響他的考績，這個部分，您可以承諾具體達到嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法律的規定，我們一定支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：好。另外，你是不是同意加速在上任之後能夠制定調解法，推動ADR的制度來解決案源過多的問題？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，這是大家都相當同意的訴訟外解決紛爭的機制，然後現在也是一直在推，不只是民事訴訟，刑事訴訟也有，還有家事……"],["吳委員思瑤：我期待你們可以加速，未來有了新民意的立法院也能夠來支持。","最後，導入科技的部分，我們過去上路的「智慧化裁判草稿自動生成系統」似乎受阻了，是不是還會強化來推進？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：針對這個部分，有一次司法院的研討會上面有討論，就是AI的部分到底要用到什麼程度，如果是技術性的沒有問題，但如果是審判核心的就還要討論。"],["吳委員思瑤：我知道它有爭議，執行上也可能發生問題，但畢竟這是一個用科技來取代人力，由簡入繁，我希望司法院不要放棄努力。","最後一項我沒有時間提出質詢，就是心理調適假的部分，我已經成功爭取所有公務同仁能夠獲得一年3天的心理調適假，我希望未來高壓的司法人員也能適用，讓他們有身心調適假，期待您上任之後努力來推動，好嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：好的。"],["吳委員思瑤：最後，我們一起加油，如您所說的，要建構一個獨立、公正、專業、效能的司法，我們一起努力，我們一起抵禦很多外部不當的政治干預。作為一個法律人，要有臂膀，要有堅持。一起加油，也給您無限祝福。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝吳思瑤委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人的說明。","接下來請登記第5位翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員詢問完畢之後，我們將會休息10分鐘，翁委員請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d584470478c19c20846914535bb497189efe2935a81d6c80c621c8d1a4ee289610d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"15:00:44 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第幾章委員很抱歉我記不起那個數字不過那一整張是當時是我在的時候修的法關於就是刑訴訴訟法裡面關於限制出境還有出海這相關規定在刑訴訴訟法裡面的第幾邊 第幾章"},{"start":98.393,"end":127.622,"text":"就是數字我記不起來但是我知道這是你自算裡面寫的呢是是是那一整張是我修的是我增訂進去的只是那個數字我記不起來我大概是從93條左右開始所以你不曉得在第幾邊數字會記不起來很抱歉來我給你看一下來這個是掛在總統府的網站上面這也是你送到立法院來審查的自算"},{"start":131.251,"end":151.987,"text":"你說你負責推動跟增訂《刑訴訴訟法》的第二篇第八章之一限制出境跟出海是這是對的嗎因為我現在可能要翻一下法條會比較清楚就是那一整章這是你重要的政績謝謝謝謝委員對不對"},{"start":156.803,"end":181.922,"text":"你居然不曉得他在第幾邊喔?呃...是不是...我想要確認一下是不是有打錯字或是什麼我這個有點壓抑喔因為這算你重大的政績嘛對不對你是刑事廳的廳長而且這是你長久推動的這是你自傳送過來又送到總統府的最嚴重的是什麼?不只你現在不曉得欸你的自傳還寫錯欸"},{"start":185.559,"end":202.576,"text":"這個規定是在第一邊耶你送到總統府送到立法院立法院審查的竟然是錯的很抱歉可能是誤善這是你寫的是不是是誤善這麼嚴重真的很抱歉你竟然也還不記得"},{"start":207.564,"end":218.25,"text":"你算是這七位裡面資歷我看是排在前面很完整的可是連這個字算都寫錯你都還不記得在哪個位置這很大的扣分耶我記得93條我記得條文"},{"start":225.659,"end":240.912,"text":"謝謝委員這回去馬上改這是一個認真的態度大法官應該是要認真的嘛第二個你要非常尊重立法院的審查你說裡面送來的資料都是不對的我要回去查還找不到這是你的專長"},{"start":243.875,"end":272.512,"text":"這扣分扣太多了這是對我們立法院審查的不尊重這樣也是對你被提名為大法官的被提名人一個不尊重我陳斥的道歉應該是誤善打字的時候就是誤善來 被提名我們再看一下上次你們來拜會的時候我特別提醒你我說我們辛辛苦苦非常詳細的做了問卷對不對是請你要盡快想死而且要盡快的"},{"start":274.363,"end":296.775,"text":"要填寫你在什麼時候我們26號給你們嘛對不對你什麼時候回來給我回來我記得是禮拜一個就是禮拜五我禮拜一才接到啊我在兩天前才接到你的回覆耶這對我們審查制度的尊重嗎"},{"start":299.517,"end":321.514,"text":"我們為什麼辛辛苦苦要做問卷這是我們的職責也是你的職責你被提名了我們要很清楚知道你對很多事情的看法你要立場要有主張對不對結果你在前天才給我們這時間不會拖太晚嗎我們一起應該是星期五的下午可能有一點剛好是週末假日的時間差"},{"start":323.459,"end":352.356,"text":"拉得太長 26要給你 到前天才回來另外更嚴重的就是你的這個回答很多都是十問虛答顧左右而言他我們看不到你的立場跟你的內容欸甚至在第二問的時候 大家看到沒有我們的十個問題第二問的時候問題啊 跟你的答案文字大概差不多在下一張"},{"start":354.244,"end":374.934,"text":"第七問的時候在問你不適合檢察官的這個問題這個有沒有侵犯到人權有沒有不正新聞這是非常非常重要你剛剛在報告的時候還有打醒的時候你在強調你非常關心人權嘛這麼重要的問題我題目473個字你回答了430個字耶為什麼會這麼一個是在敷衍嗎沒有跟委員報告我可以口頭來補充說明嗎"},{"start":384.229,"end":407.175,"text":"因為檢察官的部分畢竟就是因為我長久是在審判體系所以檢察官的部分其實我們是確實是比較不了解的但是我知道法院組織法的部分檢察官的這個職務監督人他根據規定他可以做哪一些職務監督然後呢他也准用到法官法的一些相關的規定就是檢察官評鑑等等所以我是引用了這一些條文"},{"start":407.655,"end":432.531,"text":"然後來說明說現在有相關的規定來處理檢察官的違法失職然後這個規定在那裡但是委員覺得說好像執行起來好像不太有效這個應該是權責單位他們要去檢討說執行的問題這個是因為是檢察官的部分我們審判體系確實是比較不了解"},{"start":433.351,"end":440.737,"text":"被提名人你在強調你是長久以來非常尊重人權對不對注意人權的結果這段時間的"},{"start":443.117,"end":468.659,"text":"不是任檢察官裡面的不正訊問或者是羈押的問題這是憲法第八條明文規定要保障人權也是你長久在追求的結果你是回答這樣短短幾個字看不到你很明確的立場跟堅定的立場我們在投票的時候這一題要幫你加分還是扣分當然扣分啊最重要的是十個題目我剛才講你是所有七個被提名人裡面資歷算是幾乎是最完整的"},{"start":469.807,"end":490.191,"text":"這是加分結果你的問卷裡面扣分滿滿幾乎是死當的一個狀態跟委員報告關於不當詢問的部分我有特別引用了刑事訴訟法第156條它事實上就是在處理不正詢問的問題它提到的是被告自白一定要有任意性他不能夠被強暴脅迫"},{"start":493.132,"end":519.809,"text":"不正詢問的方法之下來做陳述所以您提到了這個不正詢問我特別提到了這個刑事訴訟法第156條的規定如果檢察官引用了這個這樣的不正詢問的公訴來當作證據的話在開庭的時候這個資料是會公開的在開庭的時候法官經過調查他經過調查之後他會他可以認為說這個"},{"start":522.43,"end":549.286,"text":"不具任意性把這個證據排除那不正詢問的部分後來如果經過調查確實確有歧視的話這個警方或者是檢察官可能都還要面對可能的跟根據事證或情節他有可能有責任有民事刑事或者是行政責任我們題目裡面提了很多針對這段時間受到不正詢問的侵犯的這個事情你都沒有明確去回答我們甚至還特別問你徵詢的內容是不是應該公開你也不回答"},{"start":550.146,"end":577.494,"text":"有太多的該回答的東西沒有回答我其實有回答就是說申請的內容它是卷證的一部分它起訴之後它自然就會公開了在法庭上會公開的貝提琵人然後上面這個第二題這個我們特別提到說限訴法這個修正我們詳細的說明了我們這次修正的這個重點連全世界相關的都寫了我們特別請教你要你明確的表達意見"},{"start":581.652,"end":601.973,"text":"說有沒有如賴清德總統在公告法律時候加注的容後有妨礙憲法法庭正常運作侵略了司法權力的核心範圍破壞了政府體制分立制衡的憲政正義要你回答明確的你是短短一句話"},{"start":605.654,"end":622.894,"text":"我先明確跟你講現在我提的只是其中的一部分就是實題下來你跟其他的七位被提名的人你幾乎是相當少的一部分第二個你都是實問虛答這基本上在我們審查的過程裡面我們沒辦法很清楚看到你的主張"},{"start":624.428,"end":651.935,"text":"我們為什麼要做問卷就是希望你把你的我們有十問每一個立場都非常清楚我們了解你的立場跟主張之後才能夠投同一票嘛 是不是這樣子是 謝謝委員委員這個部分我也可以口頭來補充這方面真的要補考啦來 再看看你現在要被提名為副院長嘛你是要這段時間台灣民眾對於司法的滿意度"},{"start":653.168,"end":679.504,"text":"跟信任度是非常低的我們看一下美麗島電子報啊四月底那個給你們可以看一下政府有沒有選擇性辦案將近六成政府政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案將近六成政治力介入了司法案件你要現在當這個副院長對不對"},{"start":682.583,"end":689.069,"text":"將近六成為什麼台灣民眾對於司法的不滿意不清這麼高"},{"start":692.648,"end":719.002,"text":"台灣民眾對司法的信賴度不高我們確實有要深自檢討的地方當然有部分原因是因為我們覺得還要更加加強的跟民眾來做溝通然後我們自己就是要做到的就如同我剛剛提到的我們必須把公平正義當作我們說要投票給你你怎麼讓我們的司法信任度跟滿意度可以升高"},{"start":719.741,"end":725.121,"text":"你要做什麼事情今天早上被院長被提名人說他痛加檢討如果他投票給你 你要怎麼做"},{"start":726.379,"end":750.833,"text":"我剛剛已經提到說我們了解人民對司法的這個的鞭策跟期待是很深的而且不會停止的所以司法改革的腳步也從來沒有停止過然後所以我們一定會再加強相關的譬如說我剛才提到說這個要每一個法官把這個公平正義的這個精神當作他最重要的一個核心價值"},{"start":753.395,"end":780.289,"text":"我來給你看一下你以前的經驗你當過刑事廳的廳長對不對民國105年11月21號到109年的2月2號你上任前啊大家對於法院的法官的不信任度是高的48.5可是在你上任之後更高啊隔一年還更高啊當然不能只有怪你一個人可是沒有看到你的承擔看到你的改革"},{"start":781.667,"end":809.262,"text":"所以妳要加油啦謝謝妳就擔任了副院長之後真的是百惠待舉我們再看一下現在更嚴重的是連大法官都不被信任了從這次的國會改革一直到實質廢止這個事情太多的民眾對我們的大法官本來是高道德高標準的對不對現在很多人在馬路上都跟你講說搞不好這變成已經是政治的一個打手"},{"start":811.337,"end":838.469,"text":"這是很嚴重的一個問題我來具體的事實上我們要不要投票給你我相信全國民眾要看你就看你的擔當你的獨立性跟公正性你有沒有擔當有一個發生在你跟你家人的為據實申報的這個案子我們看一下這個案子這個一共是24筆沒有據實去申報"},{"start":841.92,"end":862.756,"text":"我看後來這個罰款處分監察院處分確定這個金額高達22萬高達22萬一共有24筆那現在這個監察院處分書裡面他直接寫說受處分人應該依照規定據實申報財產可是在申報102年12月31號財產的時候就應申報這財產項目沒有據實申報配我是你的先生是存款有9筆"},{"start":871.856,"end":873.882,"text":"股票5筆基金受益憑證10筆"},{"start":876.489,"end":905.343,"text":"怎麼會發生這麼嚴重的跟委員說明謝謝委員給我這個機會說明這件事情困擾我也很久了這個事情是發生在102年102年的時候當時的財產申報是用人工查詢、手工登錄的所以我配偶他給我的資料確實有遺漏剛剛委員提到說存款的部分存款的部分我們被查出來就是"},{"start":905.703,"end":933.624,"text":"他本來常用的就是那三個帳戶但是後來查出來有14個帳戶我們自己都嚇到就是有一些可能已經放很久沒有用了那所以你剛剛提到說好像有11個帳戶沒有報沒有錯因為我們常用後來監察院說你經過你們受處分人所陳述的申報不實是理由他說不足採信對不對他認為是故意的申報不實我先給你看一個你應該認得林子儀林教授我們看一下"},{"start":934.645,"end":962.684,"text":"林子儀林教授是在2007年他跟你一樣 他也被提名為副院長這個提名人一樣狀況 他也是配偶財產申報的他的狀況是什麼他是主動發現 他坦承疏失了然後呢他的金額比你多一點 他三次股票交易虧損然後他是已經信託給證件公司錢錢去處理的他後來做了一個決定婉拒了司法院副院長的提名"},{"start":964.67,"end":983.838,"text":"你這邊看起來金額比他少一點點可是你是動態的而且是存款這看起來然後監察院認為說不採信你的嘛看起來有點嚴重跟委員報告監察院後面寫的是說他認為我是不確定故意他認為我的錯是在我沒有竭盡所能去發現被配偶的財產這樣子"},{"start":985.078,"end":1010.393,"text":"那我的配偶就這個部分他已經誠摯的跟我道歉他確實是他提供的資料是不夠完整的那我們在被發現了這件事情之後我們就立刻就是去做了補正然後也繳了罰款我們沒有再做任何的這個訴願林教授是因為這樣子他婉拒了副院長提名那你說你的先生是已經有道歉了你要不要利用今天這個公開的這個在地法院這個審訊"},{"start":1012.556,"end":1039.687,"text":"這個審查你要不要公開跟民眾是不是要道歉?大法官是高標準、高道的我誠摯的道歉而且我在監察院後來採用電腦借機申報之後從事辦開始我們就全權授權從事辦開始我們就全權授權一直到現在就是我的態度是很明確的我知道我不夠完美但是我覺得我的專業表現值得給自己這樣一個機會好"},{"start":1043.817,"end":1054.097,"text":"你是國民法官法很重要的推手很多人是肯定你的國民走進法院法官走下法台"},{"start":1055.45,"end":1083.485,"text":"這個是國民法官法當初注定一個非常重要的一個特色他們說這是蔡英文總統任內最重要的一個司法改革那時候的院長是許仲麗他們說推動這個國民法官法起草這個草案就是由司法院著名的梅尼法官刑事廳長舒適兒一手主導推寫社會大眾對你推這個國民法官法是肯定的謝謝在開宗明義第一章開宗明義的第一章"},{"start":1086.303,"end":1114.034,"text":"國民法官法講的是要提升司法的透明度第二個要反映國民正當的法律感情增進國民對司法之了解跟信賴彰顯國民的主權理念那如果是要推動司法改革司法的這個透明度法庭直播你應該是要贊成的可是我看你回來的回來的我們問卷回來的你設了一堆條件"},{"start":1116.189,"end":1131.697,"text":"你贊成法庭直播嗎我再跟委員說明一下法庭直播的部分在6月27號三讀通過那三讀通過之後它是一個就是已經是一個法規範了理論上我們是抱歉我打斷你講話了"},{"start":1134.878,"end":1163.815,"text":"你的精神你的初心應該是要推動整個公開透明嘛是對不對這兩個A是一致嘛從你推動國民法官法到法庭直播我現在懷疑的是說你的初心是不見了嗎為什麼你現在回來了問卷的答案跟民進黨的反對意見好像看起來不止70%相像欸你很多都是複製K上欸沒有欸很多是複製K上欸你剛才講你剛一開始自傳弄錯了你這個也是然後更嚴重的來你看一下"},{"start":1165.37,"end":1178.384,"text":"你提到這個理由啊你說此外相關的媒體的自律網路平台規範還有待建立現在的媒體不夠自律嗎"},{"start":1179.127,"end":1205.017,"text":"我跟委員說明這個是我們立法院在召開公聽會的時候就是有代表就是有公聽會有各界的代表來表達很多人的意見所以你把人家反對意見貼上來當你的意見我是提醒就是說在那個公聽會裡面曾經就事實省的直播有意見就是說有比較多的意見時間有限我問你一下所以在媒體自律這一塊如果有問題誰要負責NCC嘛對不對"},{"start":1208.612,"end":1235.228,"text":"NCC委員到現在還被癱瘓啊沒有提是誰要負責任是誰要負責任我們是覺得說就是媒體或許可以再討論一個就是比較可行的方案行政院院長依法要提啊他到現在沒有提啊違法亂紀啊無法無天啊他大家癱瘓NCC啊你講的這個問題行政院要負責啊第二個你講說網路平台規範有待建立網路平台什麼有管誰管的"},{"start":1239.531,"end":1260.273,"text":"網路平台 行政體系誰在管是不是數位部嗎數法部啊這裡面出現兩個大問題啊你知道問題 那應該去解決問題啊第二更重要的 你的初心是什麼公開透明嘛 對不對不要再只有推別人的反對意見我希望你可以很明確的支持法庭直播"},{"start":1263.162,"end":1276.254,"text":"他就那個道德勇氣我相信所有的地方在同一陣營當的時候專練你專練是有的可是你的公共正義性、獨立性你的道德勇氣會是當他同一陣營當非常重要"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":101,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（15時1分）謝謝韓院長，請副院長被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人再次說明。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：副院長被提名人好。你擔任過行政廳的廳長？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：刑事廳。"],["張委員啓楷：對，刑事廳的廳長。刑事訴訟方面你是專家，對不對？我先請教一下，關於限制出境、出海的相關規定，是在刑事訴訟法裡面的第幾編、第幾章？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員，很抱歉，我記不起這個數字，不過它一整章當時是我在的時候修的法。"],["張委員啓楷：在刑事訴訟法裡面，關於限制出境、出海的相關規定是在第幾編、第幾章？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就是數字我記不起來，但是我知道大概……"],["張委員啓楷：這是你自傳裡面寫的耶！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是、是、是，那一整章是我修的、增訂進去的，只是那個數字我記不起來，大概是從第九十三條左右開始。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你不曉得是在第幾編？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：數字記不起來，很抱歉。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我給你看一下。這是掛在總統府的網站上面，也是你送到立法院來審查的自傳，你說你負責推動跟增訂「刑事訴訟法第二編第八章之一限制出境、出海」。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這是對的嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我現在可能要翻一下法條會比較清楚，就是那一整章。"],["張委員啓楷：這是你重要的政績……"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，謝謝、謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：你竟然不曉得它在第幾編哦？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是不是……我想要確認一下是不是有打錯字或什麼。委員的意思是……"],["張委員啓楷：這有點令人訝異喔！因為這算是你重大的政績嘛！對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是、是，可是數字部分可能真的比較沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你是刑事廳的廳長，這是你長久推動的，而且這是你送過來的自傳，也送到總統府的！最嚴重的是什麼？不只你現在不曉得，你的自傳還寫錯耶！這個規定是在第一編！你送到總統府、送到立法院，立法委員審查的竟然是錯的！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：很抱歉，可能是誤繕。"],["張委員啓楷：這是你寫的對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：誤繕這麼嚴重！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：真的很抱歉。"],["張委員啓楷：而你竟然還不記得！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我記得條文……"],["張委員啓楷：副院長被提名人，在這7位被提名人裡面，我看你的資歷算是排在前面、很完整的，可是連這個自傳都寫錯，而且還不記得是在哪個位置！這是很大的扣分耶！這幾乎要死當了喔！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我記得第九十三條。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我記得條文，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：這回去馬上改，好不好？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：這是一個認真的態度，大法官應該是要認真的嘛！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你要非常尊重立法院的審查，不要連送來的資料都是不對的，我還要回去查，還找不到！這是你的專長！這扣分扣太多了，這是對我們立法院審查的不尊重，事實上也是對你被提名為大法官被提名人的不尊重。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我誠摯的道歉，應該是誤繕，打字的時候就是誤繕了。"],["張委員啓楷：被提名人，我們再看一下，上次你們來拜會的時候，我特別提醒你，我說我們辛辛苦苦非常詳細的做了問卷，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：請你要詳實而且要儘快的填寫，我們是26日給你們，對不對？你什麼時候送回來給我？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我記得是……就是禮拜五。"],["張委員啓楷：我禮拜一才接到，我在兩天前才接到你的回復，這是對我們審查制度的尊重嗎？我們為什麼辛辛苦苦要做問卷，這是我們的職責，也是你的職責。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你被提名了，我們要很清楚知道你對很多事情的看法，你要有立場、要有主張，對不對？結果你在前天才給我們，這時間不會拖太晚嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我們一起應該是星期五的下午，可能剛好是周末假日的時間差。"],["張委員啓楷：拉得太長，26日給你，到前天才回來。另外更嚴重的就是你的回答很多都是實問虛答、顧左右而言他，我們看不到你的立場跟你的內容，甚至在第二問的時候，大家看一看，我們的十個問題，第二問的時候，問題跟你的答案，文字大概差不多；第七問在問你不適任檢察官的問題，這有沒有侵犯到人權、有沒有不正訊問？這是非常非常重要的，你剛剛在報告還有答詢的時候，一再強調你非常關心人權嘛！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這麼重要的問題，題目473個字，你回答了430個字，為什麼會這麼的……"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員，我現在可以……"],["張委員啓楷：是在敷衍嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：沒有，跟委員報告，我可以口頭補充說明嗎？因為檢察官的部分，畢竟我長久是在審判體系，所以檢察官的部分其實我們確實是比較不了解的，但是我知道法院組織法的部分，檢察官的職務監督人根據規定可以做哪一些職務監督，然後他也準用到法官法的一些相關規定，就是檢察官評鑑等等，所以我是引用了這一些條文，說明現在有相關的規定處理檢察官的違法失職，然後這個規定在那裡，但是委員覺得執行起來好像不太有效，這個應該是權責單位要去檢討執行的問題，因為是檢察官的部分，我們審判體系確實是比較不了解。"],["張委員啓楷：對。被提名人，你一再強調你是長久以來非常尊重人權、注意人權的。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：結果這段時間的不適任檢察官裡面的不正訊問，或者是羈押的問題，這是憲法第八條明文規定要保障人權，也是你長久在追求的。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：結果你回答這樣短短幾個字，我看不到你很明確的立場跟堅定的立場，我們在投票的時候，這一題要幫你加分還是扣分？當然扣分啊！最重要的是十個題目，我剛才講你是所有七個被提名人裡面，資歷算是幾乎最完整的，這是加分，結果你的問卷裡面扣分滿滿，幾乎是死當的一個狀態。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員報告，關於不當詢問的部分，我有特別引用了刑事訴訟法第一百五十六條，它事實上就是在處理不正訊問的問題，它提到的是被告自白一定要有任意性，不能夠在強暴、脅迫等不正訊問的方法之下陳述。所以您提到的不正訊問，我特別提到了刑事訴訟法第一百五十六條的規定，如果檢察官引用這樣不正訊問的供述當作證據的話，在開庭的時候，這個資料是會公開的，在開庭的時候，法官經過調查之後，他可以認為這個不具任意性，把這個證據排除；不正訊問的部分，後來經過調查，如果確有其事，警方或者是檢察官可能都還要面對相關的責任，根據事證或情節，他可能有責任，有民事、刑事或者是行政責任。"],["張委員啓楷：我們題目裡面提了很多針對這段時間受到不正訊問的、侵犯的這些事情，你都沒有明確回答，我們甚至還特別問你偵訊的內容是不是應該公開？你也不回答，有太多該回答的東西沒有回答。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我其實有回答，就是偵訊內容是卷證的一部分，起訴之後，它自然就會在法庭上公開。"],["張委員啓楷：被提名人，上面的第二問，我們特別提到憲訴法的修正，詳細說明了我們這次修正的重點，連全世界相關的資料都寫了，我們特別請教你，要你明確表達意見，有沒有如賴清德總統在公布法律時加註的批示「容或有妨礙憲法法庭正常運作，侵越司法權力核心範圍，及破壞政府體制分立制衡之憲政爭議」？但你的回答卻是短短一句話。我先明確跟你講，現在我舉的例子只是其中一部分，這十題下來，你跟其他七位被提名人的回答相較，幾乎都是相當少的一部分。第二點，你都是實問虛答，基本上在我們審查的過程中，我們沒辦法很清楚的看到你的主張，對不對？我們為什麼要做問卷？就是希望你把你的主張說明清楚，我們有十問，每一問的立場要非常清楚，我們了解了你的立場和主張之後，才能夠投下同意票，是不是？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，謝謝委員，委員，這個部分我也可以口頭補充。"],["張委員啓楷：這方面真的要補考啦！好，再來看看，你現在要被提名為副院長，然而這段時間臺灣民眾對於司法的滿意度跟信任度非常低，我們看一下美麗島電子報4月底的調查：政府有沒有選擇性辦案？將近六成；政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案？將近六成；政治力介入了司法案件，也將近六成，你現在要當副院長，對不對？為什麼臺灣民眾對於司法的不滿意度會這麼高？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：臺灣民眾對司法的信賴度不高，我們確實有要深自檢討的地方，當然有部分原因是因為我覺得我們還要更加加強與民眾的溝通，然後我們自己就是要做到如同我剛剛提到的，必須把公平、正義當作……"],["張委員啓楷：我們要投票給你，那你怎麼讓我們的司法信任度跟滿意度可以升高？你要做什麼事情？今天早上院長被提名人說他要痛加檢討，如果要投票給你，你要怎麼做？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我剛剛已經提到，我們了解人民對司法的鞭策跟期待是很深的，而且不會停止，所以司法改革的腳步也從來沒有停止過，我們一定會再加強相關的……譬如我剛剛提到的，每一個法官要把公平、正義的精神當作他最重要的核心價值。"],["張委員啓楷：被提名人，我們來看一下你以前的經驗，你當過刑事廳廳長，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：任期是民國105年11月21號到109年2月2號，你上任前，大家對於法院法官的不信任度是高的，有48.5%，可是在你上任之後更高，隔一年還更高，當然這不能只怪你一個人，可是我們也沒有看到你的承擔、你的改革，所以你要加油啦！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：要加油！擔任副院長之後，真的是百廢待舉，現在更嚴重的是，連大法官都不被信任了，從這次的國會改革，一直到實質廢死這個事情，大法官本來是高道德、高標準的，對不對？但現在很多人在馬路上都會跟你說大法官搞不好都已經變成政治打手，這是很嚴重的問題。事實上，我們投票給你，相信全國民眾要看的就是你的擔當、你的獨立性跟公正性。有一個發生在你跟你家人的案子，就是未據實申報的問題，我們看一下這個案子，一共有24筆沒有據實申報，我看後來監察院處分確定的金額高達22萬，一共有24筆。監察院的處分書裡面直接寫受處分人應該依照規定據實申報財產，可是在申報102年12月31號財產的時候，就應申報之財產項目沒有據實申報，配偶是你的先生？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：存款有9筆，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：股票5筆、基金受益憑證10筆，怎麼會發生這麼嚴重的……"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員說明，謝謝委員給我這個機會說明，這件事情困擾我也很久了，這個事情是發生在102年，102年的時候，當時的財產申報是用人工查詢、手工登錄的，我配偶給我的資料確實有遺漏，他確實有遺漏！剛剛委員提到存款的部分，我們被查出來，他本來常用的就是那3個帳戶，但是後來查出來的有14個帳戶，我們自己都嚇到，有一些可能已經放很久沒有用，所以你剛剛提到好像有11個帳戶沒有報，沒有錯，因為我們常用……"],["張委員啓楷：被提名人，後來監察院說，經過受處分人陳述申報不實之理由，他說不足採信，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：對。"],["張委員啓楷：他認為是故意申報不實。我先給你看一個，你應該認得林子儀林教授，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們看一下，林子儀林教授是在2007年，他跟你一樣被提名為副院長的提名人，一樣的狀況，他也是配偶的財產申報。他的狀況是什麼？他是主動發現，他坦承疏失了，然後他的金額比你多一點，有3次股票交易虧損，他是已經信託給證券公司全權去處理了，他後來做了一個決定，婉拒了司法院副院長的提名。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你這邊看起來金額比他少一點點，可是你是動態的，而且是存款，這看起來……然後監察院也認為不採信你，看起來有點嚴重。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員報告，監察院後面寫的是說，他認為我是不確定故意，他認為我的錯是在我沒有竭盡所能去發現配偶的財產，我的配偶就這個部分已經誠摯的跟我道歉，確實他提供的資料是不夠完整的，我們在被發現這件事情之後就立刻做了補正，然後也繳了罰款，我們沒有再做任何的訴願。"],["張委員啓楷：林教授因為這樣子婉拒了副院長提名，你是說你的先生已經有道歉了，你要不要利用今天在立法院公開的審查，公開跟民眾道歉？因為大法官是高標準、高道德。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，我誠摯的道歉，而且我在監察院後來採用電腦介接申報之後，從試辦開始，我們就全權授權，從試辦開始，我們就全權授權一直到現在，我的態度是很明確的，我知道我不夠完美，但是我覺得我的專業表現值得給自己這樣的一個機會。"],["張委員啓楷：好。被提名人，你是國民法官法很重要的推手，很多人是肯定你的，「國民走進法院、法官走下法台」，這個是國民法官法當初制定的一個非常重要的特色，他們說這是蔡英文總統任內最重要的一個司法改革，那時候的院長是許宗力，他們說推動國民法官法、起草這個草案，就是由司法院著名的美女法官、刑事廳長蘇素娥一手主導、推行，社會大眾對你推國民法官法是肯定的。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：在開宗明義第一章，國民法官法講的是要提升司法的透明度，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，要反映國民正當的法律感情，增進國民對司法之了解及信賴，彰顯國民主權理念。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：如果是要推動司法改革，有關司法透明度的法庭直播，你應該是要贊成的啊！可是我看你回來的問卷，你設了一堆條件耶！你贊成法庭直播嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我再跟委員說明一下，法庭直播的部分在6月27號三讀通過，三讀通過之後，它已經是一個法規範了，理論上我們是尊重……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我打岔，打斷你講話了。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你的精神、你的初心應該是要推動公開透明，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這兩個是一致嘛！所以你推動國民法官法到法庭直播，我現在懷疑的是說，你的初心是不見了嗎？為什麼你現在回來的問卷答案，跟民進黨的反對意見好像看起來不只有70%的相像，有很多都是複製、貼上的。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：很多都是複製、貼上！你剛才講了，一開始是自傳弄錯了，你這個也是，然後更嚴重的是，你看一下，你提到的這個理由，你說「此外，相關的媒體自律、網路平台規範亦有待建立」，現在的新聞媒體不夠自律嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我跟委員說明，這個是我們立法院在召開公聽會的時候，公聽會有各界的代表來表達很多的意見，就有代表……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你把人家的反對意見貼上來，當成你的意見嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：不是，我是提醒，在公聽會裡面曾經就事實審的直播有比較多的意見。"],["張委員啓楷：時間有限，我再問你一下，所以在媒體自律這一塊如果有問題誰要負責？是NCC對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：NCC的委員到現在還被癱瘓，還沒有提名是誰要負責任？是誰要負責任？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我們是覺得，媒體或許可以再討論一個……"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就是比較可行的方案。"],["張委員啓楷：行政院院長依法要提，但他到現在沒有提啊！違法亂紀、無法無天啊！他到現在還在癱瘓NCC，你講的這個問題是行政院要負責。第二個，你講網路平台規範有待建立，但網路平台是誰在管的？誰管的？行政體系是誰在管網路平台的？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是數位部嗎？我不是很瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：數發部啊！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：對，是數發部。"],["張委員啓楷：這裡面出現了兩個大問題，你知道問題就應該去解決問題啊！第二個，更重要的，你的初心是什麼？公開透明對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不要只貼別人的反對意見，我希望你可以很明確地支持法庭直播，把初心找回來，要不然就沒有道德勇氣了。我相信所有立法委員在投這一票的時候，專業你是有的，可是你的公正性、獨立性，你的道德勇氣會是大家投這張票非常重要的，加油！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人的說明。被提名人請喝口水，等你喝完水，之後下面一位委員就要開始詢問了。","接下來請登記第4位的吳思瑤委員詢問，翁曉玲委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d580c2b533223063ab0914535bb497189efe2935a81d6c80c622b49bd0206f014fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"14:39:10 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封員一家五口"},{"start":94.423,"end":120.317,"text":"因為被詐騙一家五口死於非命最後呢在整個的調查的過程裡面其中一個重要的涉案人以15萬元交保所以台灣社會就說了難道一條命只值3萬元嗎所以連續的這些事件我想請問一下我們的被提名人您也是這個"},{"start":122.822,"end":144.223,"text":"相關的法院的經驗非常豐富不管是這個家暴令隔天立刻慘死街頭或者是一家五口被詐騙最後15萬元交保您覺得在司法上面是不是有什麼樣的疏失或者跟我們社會的期待事實上距離太遠"},{"start":146.375,"end":160.328,"text":"謝謝委員提問委員第一個問題是關於家暴令的問題家暴法在民國87年通過當時是整個大陸法系國家第一個有家暴法的國家是中華民國"},{"start":161.461,"end":179.193,"text":"家暴法的施行關於保護令的部分必須有很多單位的配合法官裁了保護令之後譬如說社政、警政都要相互的配合現在還有社工的要介入當然就是這個案子很不幸我們感到非常的心痛"},{"start":180.173,"end":202.748,"text":"這個案子在司法上面有沒有疏失或者有沒有要精進的地方法官在裁保護令經過適當的調查所以如果看那個時間的話是還在合理的範圍你認為是合理的範圍就保護令的部分的裁這就是我們在質疑的司法到底能不能保護好人"},{"start":203.248,"end":217.919,"text":"每一個人都認為他在那個環節裡面他做了他應該做的事但是最後的結果就是悲劇發生好 那我請問最近我們常常在討論也就是"},{"start":219.461,"end":235.103,"text":"檢察官申請羈押那到底要不要交保交保金到底是多少最近有非常多討論我剛提到豐原五口15萬元交保但是另外一個案子就是因為呢有一個"},{"start":236.184,"end":262.836,"text":"粉絲專業的小編他把幾個檢察官他的照片秀出來做了一個梗圖說命在命還結果呢就羈押禁建所以大家覺得說詐騙造成無口之家全部死於非命15萬元交保另外呢這個是檢察官當然會不爽然後就羈押禁建我們過去還有太多的案例啊"},{"start":264.005,"end":266.009,"text":"花眼好12万元交保"},{"start":267.374,"end":295.973,"text":"還有很多共諜案 所謂共諜案20萬元交保或者最近也發生一個案子讓台大醫院面上無光就是台大的名醫社性侵案40萬元交保你不能不說他的設計地位是很崇高他隨時可以離開台灣的然後棄保潛逃讓台大醫院的院長都經不住大罵這位潛逃的性侵的醫生"},{"start":297.314,"end":325.091,"text":"我讲到这么多的案例更不要讲我们之前好几个什么那种百万赌王一样的交保之后交保潜逃所以请问一下我们社会都在问那么法院在检察官来说就是他在要羁押开羁押庭的时候他的交保或者羁押他的标准到底是什么看起来我们变得非常混乱了"},{"start":326.072,"end":345.895,"text":"反而覺得有本事有辦法的他可能幾萬甚至上百萬交保對他們來講九牛一寶交保之後他就交保潛逃了但是我剛才講比如像這個小編這樣子對檢察官檢察官不爽但是他到了一個積壓境界的狀況連交保都不給他交保"},{"start":346.957,"end":362.193,"text":"那所以我不曉得在法院系統有沒有去討論過這樣的一個羈押的標準到底是什麼交保的條件又是什麼該交保不交保該羈押不羈押有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":364.566,"end":381.781,"text":"謝謝委員提問委員提到的這個豐原五口應該還是在偵查的階段那偵查的這個階段它的事實是浮動的我們不曉得檢察官他手邊掌握的證據到一個什麼程度所以就這個部分還沒有到院方我們也沒有辦法做出比較"},{"start":382.341,"end":405.296,"text":"正確的評論那麼至於其他的案件就是在就是如果檢察官申請羈押的時候我們法官會根據法律的規定來就是相關的要件一一審核之後來做最後的判斷被提名人您是被提名為司法院副院長我剛才也聽到你如果能夠當司法院副院長你有一些想要做法"},{"start":405.876,"end":425.165,"text":"可是老實說我們看不到你們對於司法的公平正義還有他的標準目前在社會大家覺得非常的失望跟期待落空很多你們想要做出什麼樣的努力我剛才講的就是以交保的這個標準我們看到無薩薩"},{"start":426.822,"end":437.434,"text":"覺得應該去羈押的你不羈押該交保的你不去交保另外你在這邊也特別提到你希望能夠追求審判獨立"},{"start":438.939,"end":462.944,"text":"我想請問你 你知道社會的民眾大部分認為我們司法沒有審判獨立我引述一個美麗島電子報的一個民意調查針對司法的部分竟然有高達將近六成的人認為現在的賴政府是介入司法的"},{"start":464.076,"end":465.817,"text":"有將近六成59.3%的民眾認為司法在選擇性辦案"},{"start":473.001,"end":497.763,"text":"您同不同意您覺得這樣子的民眾的看法跟你認為的是不是有落差而是不是也因此你希望要去爭取所謂的審判獨立跟委員報告就我的同事就是在我工作的環境我們大部分的法官都是兢兢業業然後獨立審判這個是沒有錯的"},{"start":498.303,"end":499.304,"text":"現在的審判有獨立嗎 就您所了解"},{"start":527.063,"end":529.032,"text":"就我所了解就我自己來講我覺得審判獨立跟"},{"start":531.448,"end":557.615,"text":"就是我的日常生活的一部分這是你個人但是大部分呢怎麼會有這樣的一個民意調查的結果呢我覺得就是我們跟民眾之間可能還有需要更多的了解跟溝通這就是你們每一個案子就是一次的溝通在這麼多的案子之下累積下來民眾的感受就是如此另外因為今天是大法官審查我要請問您"},{"start":559.329,"end":582.487,"text":"因為您也是推動國民法官的推手之一那麼在大法官做出解釋憲判之八對於法院要判決死刑才行一致決事實上引起社會極大的爭議認為這是實質廢死"},{"start":585.609,"end":614.314,"text":"而這跟國民法官推動有沒有相漢格的地方也就是說當時為什麼要有國民法官就是很多都認為很多是恐龍法官因為呢他們對於社會或者民眾的期待民眾認為司法應該要保護民眾保護好人嚴懲壞人事實上那個差距太大了所以才因此要推動國民法官所以我想請問一下如果"},{"start":615.294,"end":619.083,"text":"按照大法官的解釋整個的"},{"start":620.888,"end":646.389,"text":"死刑的判決必須要一致決那你認為應該是由一致決就可以推翻國民法官判死嗎如果國民法官認為他應該判處死刑但是因為現在的大法官的解釋必須這些所有專業的法官要一致決那是不是國民法官他的判決就輕易的被推翻您贊成嗎"},{"start":647.61,"end":674.515,"text":"跟委員說明這個113年限8號的這個判決因為申請的案件裡面並沒有一件是實行國民法官的所以這個判決的效力射程距離並沒有包含到國民法官的案件那國民法官的案件他的評議有特別的規定那就是他的評議就是如果是要一般的案件的量刑是二分之一然後如果是死刑判決是三分之二"},{"start":675.055,"end":695.673,"text":"那大法官在這個判決裡面有特別提到說如果是國民法官的判決的話也只有職業法官那三票要一致其他的部分呢就還是維持原來的三分之二的這個方式來進行所以他不應該涵蓋國民法官的案件嗎應該是他的射程距離沒有到國民法官的案件"},{"start":697.118,"end":723.319,"text":"好我討論到這裡就是我們其實在對每一位大法官我們都很在意的就是在上一波的大法官提名裡面我們因為那時候九名大法官七名大法官他都有參與一些Face的行動或者是他在發文他的文章論述裡面支持Face那我請問一下被提名人你支持Face嗎"},{"start":726.175,"end":750.623,"text":"我的立場是這樣我覺得廢死這件事情它不應該是非黑即白的不應該是什麼並不是非黑即白就是只能夠有單一的選擇它應該是一個過程然後也可能就是在我們大法官的解釋裡面我是問您個人您個人贊成廢死嗎 您支持廢死嗎"},{"start":752.364,"end":781.902,"text":"听我说明完就是因为我就是在大法官的宪巴里面他是认为死刑是核心的死刑是核心的然后呢我自己担任法官我的眼中只有法律跟证据如果法律跟证据是这个这个案子应该判死刑我就会本于确信来判死刑然后事实上呢在宪巴的这一个判决里面的三就是三十几个案件里面有个案件是我曾经审理过的所以"},{"start":784.164,"end":806.844,"text":"這個理論上我是應該要迴避這個案件的我覺得妳有點在迴避這個問題喔那我直接想請教妳喔妳是不是曾經捐款贊助給廢死聯盟曾經捐過兩萬塊為什麼因為就是有朋友來募款就是他們年底覺得說這個就是"},{"start":807.898,"end":821.753,"text":"有需要款項所以其實我就捐了一些所以單純只是因為有人跟你募款所以這不牽涉到你個人的立場或者是你支持Face聯盟嗎"},{"start":822.675,"end":841.363,"text":"應該是這樣說就是我的立場是法官就是根據法律來做跟證據來做判斷那事實上我也有判過死刑的案件就是依照當時的法律來做的判斷你的意思說你自己曾經判死過對不對是好那我想再請教一下"},{"start":842.623,"end":862.385,"text":"我們現在在立法院,因為這是有廣大的民眾在網路上,大概有14萬的民眾的訴求陳情,那尤其大家知道那凱開案,前一陣子的凱開案,他認為您虐幼兒致死,應該判處死刑或者無期徒刑。"},{"start":863.166,"end":886.563,"text":"那因為在行政院法務部遲遲沒有提出法務部的版本因為之前他們是反對的所以呢在立法院裡面現在國民黨的立法院黨團提出了刑法第286條的條文修正對幼童凌虐致死那麼最高可以處於死刑還或者無期徒刑你認為這樣的修正會違憲嗎"},{"start":891.681,"end":916.862,"text":"法定刑要不要定死刑這件事情是立法形成自由凌略幼童致死或者是凌略來殺害幼童或者是直接他的犯意呈現到殺人罪直接判殺人罪都有可能就是如果經過大院的討論覺得應該要法定刑要升高到死刑的話那這個部分是立法裁量自由不過呢"},{"start":917.763,"end":934.316,"text":"想要提醒就是說相關的權責機關應該要做一個比較好的這個比對就是相關的這個相類似的這個相類似的刑罰是不是他的刑度是不是可以做一個比較不要差異太大會造成這個罪行不相當"},{"start":935.701,"end":948.568,"text":"所以你个人的话认为如果我们今天修正这个条文的话你不认为是有违宪之语因为我们现在很可怕行政院只要认为我们修正的是他们没有版本的他就认为是违宪了"},{"start":949.663,"end":976.619,"text":"現在應該是說單一死刑比較難通過憲法的檢驗我剛講到286條我沒有講其他的條文所以這個部分你認為沒有違憲之餘另外請教一下我們在立法院之前曾經提出針對反對廢除死刑舉行全國性的公投但是被中選會駁回"},{"start":978.857,"end":1003.416,"text":"我想請問你因為你在你回答就是我們各黨團的這個回答問題裡面你也認為重大政策立法院是可以提出全民公投的但是這個案子竟然被中選會來駁回你認為中選會駁回立法院所提出來的反Face公投適當嗎有沒有違憲之語"},{"start":1005.718,"end":1027.944,"text":"跟委員說明 重大的議案可以進行公投這個是經過大法官已經有解釋過了然後在公投法的第二條這個部分應該是沒有問題的但是就中選會就公投的提案有沒有實質的審查權這個確實是有不同的意見你認為有實質審查權嗎立法院有實質審查權嗎 按照"},{"start":1033.049,"end":1061.981,"text":"大法官之前做出來的解釋大法官的解釋是說可以提重大公投的議案但但是議案的內容是什麼可能要就是要要符合相關的規定第二條同時有規定到一個一個問題是說出憲法規定外就是基本上公民投票可不可以投憲法的議題這可能會比較有爭議因為他有一個除外的規定那如果是已經就憲八的部分憲八因為"},{"start":1062.541,"end":1091.452,"text":"因為大法官已經做出了解釋他的效力相當於這個憲法所以就憲八就是要推翻憲八或是他詳細的內容我不是那麼清楚但是就是說如果是跟憲法的議題有關的話所以這就是我覺得被提名的人又認為整個大法官的視線是完全的無限的膨脹當時很多大法官還有大法官認為說大法官不用屈從民意"},{"start":1091.992,"end":1120.015,"text":"但是另外一方面我們賴總統也講啊對有爭議的時候要用更大的民主來解決啊其實立法院就是民意機關你民意機關定的這個提出來的公投案你還是不准那我們就用更大的民主來解決如果按照被提名所說的那麼憲判之八號他們這個已經說此席要一致決而這樣就不能夠來做全民公投的話"},{"start":1120.876,"end":1146.006,"text":"那這就是漠視更大的民主漠視民意不是嗎這不是把大法官真的難怪大法官說我可以不需要屈從民意所以大法官好大喔所以我們剛才一直在討論從我一開始就這個我們整個的諮詢我的重點就是在於我們的現在的司法到底能不能讓人民幸福我們的司法到底能不能保護好人"},{"start":1146.926,"end":1165.882,"text":"嚴懲壞人他能不能成為社會公平正義的最後一道防線如果他不行的話我剛才看到前面的幾個例子當街慘死的也好或者詐騙一家五口死掉的也好或者我們有這麼多的案件而這麼多的"},{"start":1166.582,"end":1190.189,"text":"被害者或被害家屬只是因為大法官一個偏頗然後他根本就違憲而且你說死刑本來就合憲啊死刑合憲但是你做出了這個大法官的解釋死的變成十字廢死空有其名但是沒有辦法判處死刑的時候難道人民不能夠決定嗎被提名人"},{"start":1190.589,"end":1193.152,"text":"這個你同意吧"},{"start":1212.393,"end":1230.937,"text":"這是我們司法還是要以人民為依歸怎麼讓人民去幸福讓人民得到保障得到保護才是最高指導原則吧是你同意嗎那另外這一點點是請教一下你認同中華民國憲法有權給予台澎金馬嗎這個大法國"},{"start":1269.948,"end":1269.968,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":21,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（14時39分）謝謝主席。請被提名人蘇素娥女士。"],["主席：麻煩請被提名人。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：你好。在您的自傳裡，提到您曾經擔任過司法院刑事廳廳長，也擔任過士林地方法院院長，你自己也說你審判很多案件，但是最近臺灣社會對於司法到底是不是公正？到底有沒有雙標？到底能不能保護好人？仍存在非常、非常大的疑慮。前兩天在新北市土城，一個有家暴案的男子當街殺了他的妻子跟他的小姨子，而前一天才在法院申請了保護令，大家舉國譁然，這個保護令根本沒有辦法保護被家暴的對象，而讓他當街慘死。另外在前一陣子，臺灣因為詐騙橫行，豐原一家五口被詐騙而死於非命，最後在整個調查的過程裡面，其中一個重要的涉案人以15萬元交保，所以臺灣社會就說，難道一條命只值3萬元嗎？接連的這些事件，我想請問一下被提名人，您也是相關的法院經驗非常豐富，不管是這個家暴令隔天立刻慘死街頭，或者是一家五口被詐騙，最後15萬元交保，您覺得在司法上面是不是有什麼樣的疏失？或者跟社會的期待在事實上距離太遠？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝委員提問。委員的第一個問題是關於家暴令的部分，家暴法在民國87年通過，當時整個大陸法系國家中第一個有家暴法的是中華民國，家暴法的施行，關於保護令的部分，必須有很多單位的配合，法官裁了保護令之後，譬如社政、警政都要相互的配合，現在還有社工要介入，當然這個案子很不幸，我們感到非常的心痛，但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個案子在司法上面有沒有疏失？或者有沒有要精進的地方？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法官在裁保護令，經過適當的調查，如果看時間的話，是還在合理的範圍。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你認為是合理的範圍？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就裁定保護令的部分，但是其他的……"],["王委員鴻薇：這就是我們在質疑的，司法到底能不能保護好人？每一個人都認為他在那個環節裡面做了應該做的事，但最後的結果就是悲劇發生。請問最近我們常常在討論的就是檢察官聲請羈押，到底要不要交保？交保金到底是多少？最近有非常多的討論，我剛剛提到豐原五口15萬元交保，但是另外一個案子就是因為有一個粉絲專頁的小編，他把幾個檢察官的照片秀出來做了一個哏圖，說「命債命還」，結果就羈押禁見。大家覺得詐騙造成五口之家全部死於非命，以15萬元交保，另外這個案件檢察官當然會不爽，然後就羈押禁見。","過去還有太多的案例，如挖眼12萬元交保，還有很多共諜案以20萬元交保，或者最近也發生一個案子讓臺大醫院面上無光，就是臺大的名醫涉性侵案以40萬元交保。你不能不說他的社經地位很崇高，他隨時可以離開臺灣，然後棄保潛逃，讓臺大醫院的院長都禁不住大罵這個潛逃的性侵醫生。我講到這麼多的案例，更不要講之前好幾個比如那種百萬賭王一樣交保之後棄保潛逃。","所以請問一下，我們社會都在問，法院以檢察官來說，他要開羈押庭的時候，交保或者羈押的標準到底是什麼？我們看起來是變得非常混亂啊！只要覺得有本事、有辦法的，可能幾萬甚至上百萬交保，這對他們來講是九牛一毛，交保之後他就棄保潛逃了。但是我剛剛講，比如像這個小編這樣子對檢察官，檢察官不爽，最後到了被羈押禁見的狀況，連交保都不給他交保！所以我不曉得法院系統有沒有去討論過這樣一個羈押的標準到底是什麼？交保的條件又是什麼？該交保不交保，該羈押不羈押，有沒有這樣的狀況？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝委員提問，委員提到豐原五口的案件應該還是在偵查的階段，偵查的階段它的事實是浮動的，我們不曉得檢察官手邊掌握的證據到什麼程度，所以就這個部分還沒有到院方，我們也沒有辦法做出比較真切的評論。至於其他的案件，如果檢察官聲請羈押的時候，我們法官會根據法律的規定，就相關的要件一一審核之後做最後的判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：被提名人，您是被提名為司法院副院長，我剛才也聽到，如果你能夠當司法院副院長，你有一些想法與做法，可是老實說我們看不到你們對於司法的公平正義還有標準，目前社會大家覺得非常失望，跟期待落差很多，你們想要做出什麼樣的努力？我剛才講的，以交保這個標準，我們看得「霧煞煞」，應該去羈押的，你不羈押，該交保的，你不去交保。","另外，你也特別提到希望能夠追求審判獨立，我想請問，你知道社會民眾大部分認為我們司法沒有審判獨立，我引述一個美麗島電子報的民意調查，針對司法的部分，竟然有高達將近六成的人認為現在的賴政府是介入司法的，有將近六成、59.3%的民眾認為司法在選擇性辦案，您同不同意？您覺得民眾這樣子的看法，跟你認為的是不是有落差？而你是不是也因此希望要去爭取所謂的審判獨立？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員報告，就我的同事，在我工作的環境，我們大部分的法官都是兢兢業業、獨立審判，這個是沒有錯的。您剛剛提到交保的標準不一造成大家很混淆，事實上就是個案的情況不同，我們比較難以量化，可是我們會利用各種機會跟教育的場所，提醒法官應該注意的事項。民眾對於司法有很高的期待，這個我們了解，或許我們做得還不夠，我們會繼續努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：那現在的審判有獨立嗎？就您所了解。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：就我所了解，就我自己來講，我覺得審判獨立就是我日常生活的一部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是你個人，但是大部分呢？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法官也是……"],["王委員鴻薇：不然怎麼會有這樣一個民意調查的結果呢？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我覺得我們跟民眾之間可能還需要更多的了解跟溝通。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們每一個案子就是一次的溝通，這麼多的案子累積下來，民眾的感受就是如此。另外，今天是大法官審查，我要請問您，因為您也是推動國民法官的推手之一嘛！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：大法官做出113年憲判字第8號解釋，對於法院要判決死刑要採取一致決，事實上引起社會極大的爭議，認為這是實質廢死，而這跟國民法官推動有沒有相扞格的地方？當時為什麼要有國民法官？就是很多人都認為有很多恐龍法官，對於社會或者民眾的期待，民眾認為司法應該要保護民眾、保護好人、嚴懲壞人，事實上那個差距太大了，所以才因此要推動國民法官。我想請問一下，如果按照大法官的解釋，整個死刑的判決必須要一致決，你認為應該是一致決就可以推翻國民法官判死嗎？如果國民法官認為他應該判處死刑，但是因為現在大法官的解釋是必須所有專業的法官要一致決，那是不是國民法官的判決就輕易地被推翻，您贊成嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員說明，113年憲判字第8號判決的聲請案件裡面，沒有一件是實行國民法官程序的……"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：所以這個判決效力的射程距離並沒有包含到國民法官案件。國民法官案件的評議有特別規定，一般案件量刑是二分之一，如果是死刑判決是三分之二，大法官在這個判決裡面有特別提到說，如果是國民法官判決的話，也只有職業法官的3票要一致，其他部分還是維持原來三分之二的方式來進行。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它不應該涵蓋國民法官的案件嘛？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：應該是它的射程距離沒有到國民法官的案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：我討論到這裡，其實我們對每一位大法官都很在意的，就是在上一波的大法官提名裡面，7名大法官都有參與一些廢死的行動，或者是在文章論述裡面支持廢死，我請問一下被提名人，你支持廢死嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：我的立場是這樣，就是我覺得廢死這件事情，不應該是非黑即白……"],["王委員鴻薇：不應該是什麼？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：並不是非黑即白，就是只能夠有單一的選擇，它應該是一個過程，然後也可能在我們大法官的解釋裡面，事實上是……"],["王委員鴻薇：我是問您個人，您個人贊成廢死嗎？您支持廢死嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：請委員聽我說明完。大法官113年憲判字第8號判決認為死刑是合憲的，我自己擔任法官，我的眼中只有法律跟證據，如果依據法律跟證據這個案子應該判死刑，我就會本於確信來判死刑。","事實上在113年憲判字第8號判決的三十幾個案件裡面，其中有一個案件是我曾經審理過的，理論上我是應該要迴避這個案件。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得你有點在迴避這個問題。那我直接請教你，你是不是曾經捐款贊助廢死聯盟？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：曾經捐過2萬塊。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：因為就是朋友來募款，他們覺得年底有需要款項，所以我就捐了一些。"],["王委員鴻薇：單純只是因為有人跟你募款？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是，朋友來募款。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這不牽涉到你個人的立場？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：朋友來募款。"],["王委員鴻薇：或者是你支持廢死聯盟？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：應該這樣說，我的立場是法官，根據法律跟證據來做判斷，事實上我也有判過死刑的案件，就是依照當時的法律做了判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：你的意思是說你自己曾經判過死刑，對不對？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我想再請教一下，我們現在在立法院，因為有廣大的民眾在網路上，大概有14萬的民眾訴求、陳情，尤其是前陣子大家知道的剴剴案，民眾認為凌虐幼童致死應該判處死刑或者無期徒刑，而行政院遲遲沒有提出法務部版本，因為之前他們是反對的，所以國民黨的立法院黨團提出了刑法第二百八十六條的條文修正，對幼童凌虐致死最高可以處死刑或者無期徒刑，你認為這樣的修正會違憲嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：法定刑要不要定死刑這件事情是立法形成自由，凌虐幼童致死，或者是凌虐殺害幼童，又或者犯意直接層升到殺人罪直接判殺人罪都有可能，如果經過大院的討論，覺得應該要將法定刑升高到死刑的話，這個部分是立法裁量自由，不過我想要提醒相關權責機關應該要做一個比較好的比對，就是相類似的刑罰，刑度是不是可以做比較，不要差異太大，否則會造成罪刑不相當。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以如果今天修正這個條文的話，你個人不認為有違憲之虞，因為我們現在很可怕，行政院只要認為我們修正的是他們沒有版本的，他就認為是違憲。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：現在應該是說單一死刑比較沒有辦法，就是比較難通過憲法的檢驗，但如果是有選擇……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講到第二百八十六條，我沒有講其他的條文。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個部分你認為沒有違憲之虞，好。","另外我請教一下，我們立法院之前曾經提出，針對反對廢除死刑舉行全國性的公投，但是被中選會駁回。我想請問你，因為你回答我們各黨團的問題裡面，你也認為重大政策立法院是可以提出全民公投的，但是這個案子竟然被中選會駁回，你認為中選會駁回立法院所提出來的反廢死公投適當嗎？有沒有違憲之虞？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：跟委員說明，重大的議案可以進行公投，這個大法官已經有解釋過了，然後在公投法的第二條，這個部分應該是沒有問題的。但是中選會就公投的提案有沒有實質的審查權，這個確實是有不同的意見，就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你認為有實質審查權嗎？對立法院有實質審查權嗎？按照大法官之前做出來的解釋。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：大法官的解釋是說可以提重大議案的公投，但是議案的內容是什麼，可能也要符合相關規定。第二條同時有規定到一個問題是，除憲法規定外，基本上公民投票可不可以投憲法的議題，這個可能會比較有爭議，因為它有一個除外的規定，如果是就憲8的部分，因為大法官已經作出解釋，它的效力相當於憲法，所以要推翻憲8或是……它詳細的內容，我不是那麼清楚，但如果是跟憲法議題有關的話，是會違憲的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得被提名人又認為整個大法官釋憲是完全、無限地膨脹，當時還有大法官認為法官不用屈從民意，但是另外一方面賴總統也講，對於有爭議的時候，要用更大的民主來解決啊！其實立法院就是民意機關，民意機關提出來的公投案你還是不准，那我們就用更大、更大的民主來解決。如果按照被提名人所說的，那麼憲判字第8號已經說死刑要一致決，而這樣就不能夠做全民公投的話，這就是漠視更大的民主、漠視民意，不是嗎？這不是把大法官……難怪大法官說，我可以不需要屈從民意，所以大法官好大喔！","我們剛才一直在討論，從一開始我們整個質詢，我的重點就是在於現在的司法到底能不能讓人民信服？我們的司法到底能不能保護好人、嚴懲壞人？它能不能成為社會公平正義的最後一道防線？如果它不行的話，我剛才看到前面的幾個例子，當街慘死的也好，或者詐騙一家5口死掉的也好，我們有這麼多、這麼多案件，而這麼多的被害者或被害家屬只是因為大法官一個偏頗……然後它根本就違憲，而且你說死刑本來就合憲，但是你做出了這個大法官的解釋，變成實質廢死，空有其名，但是沒有辦法判處死刑的時候，難道人民不能夠決定嗎？被提名人。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：整個司法改革最後一樣是要走到司法為民，最早的司法改革追求的是審判獨立，但是後來，我們現在主要的基調是司法為民，所以剛剛委員所提到的，就是要以人民的想法為依歸，這個我都贊成。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個你同意吧？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們司法還是要以人民為依歸，怎麼讓人民信服，讓人民得到保障、得到保護，才是最高指導原則吧？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：你同意嘛？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：嗯。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外請教一下，你認同中華民國憲法有權及於臺澎金馬嗎？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：這個大法官以前有解釋過……時間到了。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒關係，Yes or No？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：政治問題是沒有辦法釋憲的……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你沒有辦法回答中華民國憲法是不是及於臺澎金馬？"],["蘇素娥被提名人：當然是及於臺澎金馬。"],["王委員鴻薇：對嘛！"],["蘇素娥被提名人：對、對，但是這個問題應該不能拿來釋憲。"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要像賴總統那種史觀喔！賴總統認為說什麼臺灣沒有參與制憲，聽起來好像一副這部憲法是不應該及於臺灣的。對，這是一個政治題，但是如果我們的大法官不能忠於憲法的話，我們會覺得有很大的質疑，好不好？謝謝。"],["蘇素娥被提名人：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝王鴻薇委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人的說明，謝謝。","接下來請登記第3號張啓楷委員詢問。吳思瑤委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163034","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163034","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d588229d64fe392b5b4914535bb497189ef8774e4c670b29f4374881cda51d8a84a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:04:21 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我要問你啊 這要安裝改革 要安裝防備我是要問你這個啦"},{"start":288.05,"end":310.443,"text":"現在你知道對人民來說 當警察 檢察官 法官抓鬼的人被鬼抓了你叫人民情何以堪啊你讓我們這些人民要叫誰來保護啊所以你的司法最後一道防線也瓦解了你覺得這個事情是多嚴重你有想過嗎如同剛剛委員提過的是"},{"start":317.711,"end":334.958,"text":"大部分的法官跟檢察官其實我現在要問你怎麼管理房幣啦不要去說那大部分那不能讓老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥啊那就要靠司法行政體系啊那我現在就是正在問你司法行政體系你要怎麼管理和房幣"},{"start":337.507,"end":353.635,"text":"法官法在100年制定現在74條法官的職務評定只有良好跟不良好 兩種你知道法官法施行以前它的考積有三等"},{"start":354.395,"end":372.452,"text":"法官法施行以後 甲等乙等的都變成良好 丙等的才叫做不良好你知道現在的法官法之下你有多少法官被評定為不良好的比例有多高你知道嗎我只知道我相當低"},{"start":378.294,"end":393.761,"text":"第一道不成樣子啦 大家法官喔沒有棒子啦司法改革 我們的法官法制定以後現在司法形象變得雪上加霜 惡名昭彰"},{"start":395.718,"end":413.457,"text":"現在不是司法獨立審判 讓這一種素行不良 違法亂作的法官變成他們的天堂然後破壞司法形象 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他們只想要享受這一個頭銜這個頭銜的權利 走出去都很好用的但是 賦予這個頭銜的責任 沒有人要承擔所以停頓 先破頓 現在大家都在等 先刮 做停頓啊 審判長 庭長這很硬的啊 要走很久的啊"},{"start":774.375,"end":783.854,"text":"人家請他們吃飯但是呢 植物監督沒有人要去做現在變成怎樣失去了平衡的法官"},{"start":785.063,"end":814.593,"text":"司法制度沒有蘿蔔棒子蘿蔔薪水這麼低詐騙集團一誘惑就跑了棒子沒人要做派人所以我現在再問你一次吳東都院長他說司法判決後看司法看法官的裁判書不僅是權限而且還是院長的責任義務你同不同意我同意同意"},{"start":819.087,"end":842.307,"text":"法官法第十九條 還有法官法第三十五條法官評鑑委員會司法院組成的你如果送 其實都是法官和法官相互包庇可以要送評鑑委員會的 都送人審會啦然後評鑑委員會又輕輕放下在這種過程裡面喔 大家都不要做壞人"},{"start":843.746,"end":864.281,"text":"平建委員會法官法第35條第6項有一個規定法官平建委員會為確定行為模式的必要得就未經請求的違實情勢予以調查和審議你選一個案件 各案聯合平建委員會但是 為什麼我們要做這個法官法第35條第6項的這一個立法我剛才說這個要立法要從何你認識"},{"start":871.457,"end":871.657,"text":"就是說"},{"start":878.544,"end":907.055,"text":"不當行為你這個法官已經人審會包庇不住了重大到要到評鑑委員會來了好你這個行為是無所謂無中的毋依為之的還是你這樣的審理案子的行為模式是一個行為模式如果是一個行為模式我們現在要說受害者絕對不會是只有一個不會是只有兩個"},{"start":908.243,"end":934.524,"text":"很多啦所以有問題的法官通常都是慣行慣犯行為模式都一樣的但是呢法官法第35條第6條評鑑的時候可以就沒有人來請託把他過去所有的審理看他的狀況有沒有為師都一併調查和審議沒人要走沒人要走"},{"start":937.148,"end":941.773,"text":"因為你來自檢查體系法官的不當行為2023年10月16號士林地方法院法官蘇錦秀在法官論壇他變成只能對外放話了"},{"start":960.731,"end":978.499,"text":"他擔任陪席法官的時候有何義廷三名法官共同評議以後結果這個庭長就曉白了人三個人各標管2比1庭長卻拒絕在審判書上簽名因為他是一個的那一個少數"},{"start":980.073,"end":998.457,"text":"違反民事訴訟法第227條前項 違判決的法官應與判決書內簽名 以及法院組織法第105條他違反了這樣的規定 這麼重大 他不是送評鑑委員會他送人審會啦 人審會認為沒有為師啦"},{"start":1002.126,"end":1015.948,"text":"這一個庭長還威脅書記官不准公告判決主文因為他的個人看法跟兩個人的看法不一樣所以導致宣判當日沒有辦法依法公告主文"},{"start":1021.878,"end":1043.635,"text":"2023年11月7號媒體報導最高行政法院審理案件的時候發現一審的台北高等行政法院法官周泰德他沒有參與言辭辯論卻直接參與審判違反刑事訴訟法第188條法官非參與言辭沒有參與裁判基礎的辯論者不得參與裁判"},{"start":1049.339,"end":1061.486,"text":"培喜法官彭康凡他還把自己簽名簽在裁判長他在言辭辯論的筆錄當中簽名自己是裁判長都很明顯違法程序面民事訴訟法規定這個法官若不是視若無睹視為"},{"start":1070.166,"end":1085.967,"text":"是不當一回事 看不在眼裡 視法律如無物喔要行依法判決的法官 把法律踩在腳底下多得很啦 多得很啦 這種不孝的法官喔 很多"},{"start":1087.148,"end":1112.043,"text":"明顯違法不安全 我再講一下 你聽啊2023年11月14日司法院人事處公布了人審會的決議針對新北地方法院民事庭裡昭榮法官在審理過程當中沒有向當事人說明合意 你們兩個如果合意停止訴訟 何蓋停止了所產生的法律效果沒有提醒書記官要注意後續的聯繫"},{"start":1113.344,"end":1142.161,"text":"導致當事人的案件被視為撤回起訴影響訴訟權益重大還有2021年3月苗栗地方法官周靜妮對當事人動以私刑要受年當庭掌嘴下跪還欺負社工還揚言要在法院放火這種的 以這個個案 監察院也糾正過監察院糾正我念不念你聽"},{"start":1144.903,"end":1157.11,"text":"監察院糾正周敬禮法官的違法行為發現周敬禮法官從104年開始就出現無故嚴當羈押案件審理以及辦案瑕疵等狀況未能發揮預防功效"},{"start":1160.672,"end":1189.009,"text":"周靜怡法官自稱 她是身心症狀況困擾不是只有台南辦會說自己是精神病 臉發光自己也說自己有精神困擾 精神病臉發光就知道這可以推出那監察院說 司法院沒有善盡關懷輔導責任也沒有合理的調整法官職務以協助法官調整身心 降低法官不適任的狀況現在要說的就是說"},{"start":1191.608,"end":1207.371,"text":"這裡做議定委 做庭定委都沒有人在行使職務監督這裡活瓜不肖的法官無法無天繼續敗壞司法的形象這裡是問題這裡有立法院整天在這裡假改革所以院長責任重不重大這是非常要緊的事"},{"start":1219.506,"end":1222.705,"text":"謝謝林子芬委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時4分）謝謝院長，是不是請蔡提名人？"],["主席：麻煩蔡被提名人。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：被提名人，我這樣子說好了，你知道橋頭地院有一個法官叫石育恩，這一個個案你有印象嗎？這樣講好了，法官幫詐騙集團藏錢，這個個案你有印象嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我好像在媒體上有看到。"],["林委員淑芬：好像？你是被提名人了，你對這樣的個案有什麼樣的看法？聽起來你好像對細節並不是很清楚。這樣說好了，臺北地檢署偵辦律師鄭鴻威擔任詐騙集團軍師案時，他發現有16個律師串聯在一起成為一個群組，幫詐騙集團到各地檢署還有各法院監控遭逮的車手，更離譜的是橋頭地院的法官石育恩，還有桃園地檢署的檢察官你們以前地檢署系統的吳雅芝也捲入；詐騙集團還把錢藏在法院，石育恩法官還揪其他法官一起買房子洗錢，揪團買房洗錢，這個過程東窗事發了以後，石育恩還趕快開著價值350萬的保時捷跑車跑到地方法院把錢搬走，然後被逮到。我現在問你，你知道看守所裡面以前遭羈押的一半以上都是酒駕，現在一半以上都是什麼你知道嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：不了解。"],["林委員淑芬：你是檢察系統的，你會不知道？看守所裡面關的一半以上都是詐騙集團的車手。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["林委員淑芬：是，你現在才……你有接地氣嗎？我現在很擔心耶，我要跟你講這件事情是因為詐騙問題很嚴重，跟他們關在一起的人出來描述給我朋友聽，他問這些年輕車手出去以後會不會想再從事詐騙的工作？他們說：會。為什麼會，你知道嗎？被提名人，你知道嗎？猜猜看。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：因為判得不重。"],["林委員淑芬：啊？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：因為判得太輕。"],["林委員淑芬：判得太輕不是問題，他們都認罪，被抓到的這些詐騙集團車手都認罪了，關了以後還要出來再當詐騙的原因是，外面領3萬、5萬的薪水太少了，在外面隨便當車手，吃香喝辣、收入豐沃；我現在要講的不是這些車手，我要講的是，法官跟檢察官有錢能使鬼推磨的這個問題。我知道你是被提名人，其實檢察系統更嚴重，你對於制度面的防弊有什麼看法？你可不可以說給我們聽一下？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這是一個困難的問題，第一個，我對於案件的細節其實不了解……"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有在講案件，我現在講的是，關於檢察官、法官無法抗拒誘惑，請問檢察官一個月的薪水是多少？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：一個月應該有10萬塊以上。"],["林委員淑芬：10萬塊以上。法官一個月的薪水是多少？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：差不多。"],["林委員淑芬：差不多？法官不只這樣啦！我現在要跟你說的是，詐騙集團隨便給他們的都比這個多，大家在外面吃香喝辣，檢察官、法官很難抗拒誘惑，但絕大多數還是正派的。我現在問你的是，你要來做院長、被提名了，總統也跟你說：我提名你好不好？你也說：好，我勇於任事。那我要問你，這要怎麼改革？要怎麼樣防弊？我是要問你這個。你知道對於人民來說，警察、檢察官、法官這些抓鬼的人被鬼抓了，你叫人民情何以堪啊？我們這些人民要叫誰來保護啊？司法最後一道防線也瓦解了，你知道這個事情有多嚴重嗎？你有想過嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：如同剛剛委員提的，大部分的法官跟檢察官其實……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你的是要怎麼防弊，不要再去說那些大部分，不能讓老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥啊！所以要靠司法行政體系，我現在要問的就是：司法行政體系你要怎麼管理和防弊？我再告訴你，法官法在100年制定，法官法第七十四條提到，法官職務評定只有良好與不良好兩種。但在法官法施行前，法官的考績有三等；法官法施行以後，甲等、乙等都變成良好，丙等的才叫做不良好。在現在的法官法之下，有多少法官被評定為不良好？比例有多高，你知道嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我只知道相當低。"],["林委員淑芬：對，低到不成樣子！所以法官沒有棒子啦！在法官法制定以後，司法形象變得雪上加霜、惡名昭彰！現在已經不是司法獨立審判，已經變成素行不良、為非亂做的法官的天堂，破壞司法形象，連累正派的法官，這樣才有政客表演的空間！所謂的政客表演，前幾天立法院才通過法庭直播，事實上是一、二審沒有直播，且原則上都不直播，但是因為有太多人民的權利受到法官侵害，才會認為要公開透明。其實是因為司法改革過程中，司法行政體系瀆職，司法行政體系不彰，沒有棒子，即使有職務監督體制也不行使，以致敗壞司法形象，才會讓政客到立法院來表演原則上都不會直播的假直播，是個只圖利政治人物與貪瀆案件一定要直播的假直播！這是政治人物才有的司法特權的假直播，只有這一種！為什麼人民會有這種高度期待，誤以為立法院通過的是真直播？因為司法行政體系、司法的職務監督功能失效、沒用，你知道嗎？你有什麼看法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：司法院有懲戒法院這個機構，我想委員很清楚，懲戒制度……"],["林委員淑芬：懲戒法院在司法裡面……你說的懲戒法院所懲戒的對象是所有的公務人員，我現在講的是對於司法行政人員體系你要怎麼改？不要跟我說懲戒法院！司法院內部的把關機制是哪個委員會？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我們有自律委員會，還有審議委員會……"],["林委員淑芬：人審會啦！人審會啦！只有違反法官法第三十條規定的才會送外部的法官評鑑委員會……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["林委員淑芬：但你們的情節都不重大，即使情節重大，你們也說情節不重大，以致要送評鑑委員會的都送人審會；而人審會都口頭告誡、書面告誡，有效嗎？有效嗎？沒效啦！甚至連送法官評鑑委員會的評鑑案件也輕輕放下！你現在要當院長了，所以我講故事給你聽。最高行政法院吳東都在112年10月25日就任時表示，法院院長是事後看法官的裁判書──是事後、判決之後，沒有介入司法。院長於判決後看法官裁判書不僅是權限，更是院長的責任義務，所以他說任內的工作重點之一就是落實事後研閱法官裁判書的工作。為什麼要研閱法官的裁判書？為什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想還是有一定程度的必要。"],["林委員淑芬：他要幹什麼？他要幹什麼？你是不是認同？你認不認同？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：呃……"],["林委員淑芬：再來，你知道庭長、審判長的分案量是減少的，你知道嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼要減少他們的分案量，是要叫他們做什麼，你知道嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想主要是協助審查法官所做成的裁判書類。"],["林委員淑芬：「黑白講」啦！是要讓他們去做職務監督啦！職務監督這個是於法有據的，法官法第十九條規定「法官於其獨立審判不受影響之限度內，受職務監督。職務監督包括制止法官違法行使職權、糾正法官不當言行及督促法官依法迅速執行職務」；第二十條則規定了各級法院院長在法官發生不當言行或違失行使職權時，各級法院院長應善盡其職務監督之，以亡羊補牢，避免法官失去其職務分際及自律能力。第十九條、第二十條的法律都授權給你了，所以我才說，我們現在沒有所謂的考績，把它改成全部都只有良好跟不良好，可是不良好的有夠少，但是要搭配職務監督給庭長、給審判長、給院長，都讓你們減少分案量，是要讓你去做職務監督，可是大家都不想要當壞人，庭長、審判長只是一個頭銜，都是作為在外面進行社交時的工具，是社交工具！這位庭長要跟你們吃飯、這位審判長要跟我們吃飯，吃得很爽的，他們只想要享受這一個頭銜，這個頭銜的權利拿出去都很好用，但是賦予這個頭銜的責任沒有人要承擔，所以庭長、審判長不是在那邊……現在大家都在那邊等著升官當庭長、審判長，很閒啊，案件很少啊，於是人家就請他們吃飯啊！但是職務監督沒有人要去做，現在變成是失去了平衡的法官、司法制度啦，沒有蘿蔔、棒子，蘿蔔，薪水這麼低，詐騙集團一誘惑就跑了；棒子，沒人要當壞人。","我現在再問你一次：吳東都院長說，司法判決以後，看法官的裁判書不僅是權限，而且還是院長的責任、義務。你同不同意？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我同意。"],["林委員淑芬：你同意，但問題是你要怎麼做？要怎麼做？除了法官法第十九條，還有法官法第三十五條，法官評鑑委員會是司法院組成的，但移送後其實都是法官和法官相互包庇啦，要送評鑑委員會的都送人審會啦，然後評鑑委員會又輕輕放下，在這種過程裡面，大家都不想當壞人。評鑑委員會，法官法第三十五條第六項規定，法官評鑑委員會為確定違失行為模式的必要，得就未經請求的違失情事，予以調查及審議。你送一個個案進去評鑑委員會，但是為什麼我們要有法官法第三十五條第六項的立法？我剛才說的這個條文的立法目的是要做什麼，你知道嗎？你要擔任司法院院長，但是法官法你沒看？你背不起來吧？沒關係，我跟你說，就是有不當行為，這個法官人審會已經包庇不住了，甚至重大到要送到評鑑委員會來了，這個行為究竟是不小心、沒注意的、偶一為之的，還是這是你審理案子的行為模式？如果是一個行為模式，我現在要說，受害者絕對不會只有一個、不會只有兩個，很多啦！所以有問題的法官通常都是慣行、慣犯，行為模式都一樣的。依法官法第三十五條第六項評鑑的時候，可以就沒有人來請託的，把他過去所有的審理案件、看他的狀況有沒有違失，都一併調查和審議。沒人要做！沒人要做！你如果要來做……我不知道，因為你來自檢察體系，對於這些素行不良的法官，你壓得住他們嗎？","我來跟你說一些法官的不當行為，2023年10月16號士林地方法院法官蘇錦秀在法官論壇發文，他變成只能對外放話了，揭露了他擔任陪席法官時，有一個案件經過合議庭三名法官共同評議以後，結果這個庭長很囂張，三個人表決結果是二比一，庭長卻拒絕在審判書上簽名，因為他就是那一個的少數，這違反民事訴訟法第二百二十七條前項規定「為判決之法官，應於判決書內簽名」以及法院組織法第一百零五條的規定，他違反了這樣的規定，這麼重大，但他不是送評鑑委員會，是送人審會，人審會認為沒有違失啦，這位庭長還威脅書記官不准公告判決主文，因為他的個人看法跟另兩位法官不一樣，所以導致宣判當日沒有辦法依法公告主文耶，這有嚴重嗎？送人審會啦！","我再跟你說一個故事，2023年11月7號媒體報導最高行政法院審理案件的時候發現，一審的臺北高等行政法院法官周泰德沒有參與言詞辯論，卻直接參與審判，違反行政訴訟法第一百十八條「法官非參與裁判基礎之辯論者，不得參與裁判」的規定，直接違法了啊！陪席法官彭康凡還在言詞辯論的筆錄上簽名自己為裁判長，都很明顯違法！對於程序面、民事訴訟法的規定，這些法官若不是視若無睹、不當一回事、看不在眼裡、視法律如無物，要依法判決的法官居然把法律踩在腳底下，多得很啦！多得很啦！這種不肖的法官很多，但明顯違法也不會怎麼樣。","我再說一個給你聽，2023年11月14日司法院人事處公布人審會的決議，針對新北地院民事庭李昭融法官於審理過程中，沒有向當事人說明合意停止訴訟，和解程序後所產生的法律效果，也沒有提醒書記官要注意後續的聯繫，導致當事人的案件被視為撤回起訴，影響訴訟權益重大。","還有2021年3月苗栗地方法院法官周靜妮對當事人動以私刑，要少年當庭掌嘴、下跪，還欺負社工，並揚言要在法院放火。這個個案監察院也糾正過，監察院的糾正文我唸給你聽，監察院糾正周靜妮法官的違法行為，發現周靜妮法官從104年開始就出現無故延宕羈押案件審理以及辦案瑕疵等狀況，未能發揮預防功效。周靜妮法官自稱是受身心症狀況困擾，不是只有殺人放火者會說自己是精神病，連法官也會說自己有精神困擾、精神病，連法官都知道這個理由可以拿來推託。監察院說司法院沒有善盡關懷輔導責任，也沒有合理的調整法官職務，以協助法官調整身心，降低法官不適任的狀況。","我現在要說的就是，這些當院長的、當庭長的都沒有人在行使職務監督，造成這些不肖的法官無法無天，繼續敗壞司法的形象，這才是問題，也因此才有立法院前幾天在這裡做的假改革啦！所以院長的責任重不重大？這是非常要緊的事啦。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的詢問，也謝謝我們蔡被提名人，謝謝您。","接下來我們請登記最後一位的賴士葆委員，請詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d5888dd14594775c718914535bb497189ef8774e4c670b29f4399ca43a5534ac6bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:43:30 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填一些資料比如說自傳等等等等那就是我回顧一下我過去的經歷我說因為我只當過檢察官嘛那其他之前其實包括現任的大法官也有檢察官出身的"},{"start":197.529,"end":200.911,"text":"我們就來解釋一下你擔任檢察官的時候的一些表現"},{"start":220.481,"end":245.91,"text":"剛剛大家特別提到了有關拉法葉案事實上這個陳長文律師就直指你是核心也是主辦但是剛剛你在回答委員的詢問的時候又說起訴不是你那我就要具體問你因為當時大家都知道盧恩發檢察總長他受到了上級的命令當時陳水扁總統下令"},{"start":246.61,"end":267.247,"text":"然後呢他就是施壓要起訴當時呢他是交代黃世民但是呢黃世民不從才是你來接手那請問你接手了之後你做了什麼事因為你剛剛迴避說你你沒有起訴雷學明等人請問那你接手之後你有沒有就是羈押他們我在我剛剛講過就是說這個案子是90年7月起訴的"},{"start":276.421,"end":301.623,"text":"90年7月我事實上是不在北檢我問你就是吳仁芳要求黃世明接手那黃世明不從是你接手的你接手之後做了什麼我當時是一個基層的檢察官黃檢察長他時候應該是北檢的檢察長吧我不太確定但是事實上是有其他的學長他們處理這個案子"},{"start":302.384,"end":319.874,"text":"那我在90年11月從板橋地檢現在的新北地檢調到台北地檢因為你接手的時候當時裁定這個羈押的時候當時是在你手上嗎"},{"start":321.623,"end":331.782,"text":"應該不是你很多回答都是有點模糊我記憶中應該不是那為什麼陳朝文律師他只指你就是主要的關鍵人"},{"start":333.168,"end":357.6,"text":"主要的關鍵我也不曉得為什麼他說主要的關鍵就是因為我被指示就是他如總長那吃鴨黃甲長然後就是叫我去起訴嘛他原來的意思是這樣但是這完全不是事實那我可以請教你雷學敏相關等人的案件你當中扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":358.7,"end":361.685,"text":"我扮演的角色我是參加公訴 論告"},{"start":370.086,"end":390.302,"text":"所以公訴你是主要的公訴的檢察官對不對公訴其中之一啦因為起訴的人所以你現在要告訴大家是你不是主責跟你沒有關係不是跟我沒有關係我不能這樣講因為我參加參與這個公訴就不能跟我講沒有關係事實上是跟我就是這個案子我是有參與的"},{"start":392.233,"end":418.192,"text":"但是這個案件我自己起訴的案件不是這個案子我自己起訴的案件是後來的案子那這個案子最後是被判無罪你對於你自己擔任公訴的檢察官現在看到這個案子被判無罪你當時你有沒有檢討自己在當中所扮演的角色你到底是奉承上命在扮這個角色還是你有積極去追求一些客觀的事實因為現在大家都看到這個"},{"start":419.493,"end":440.019,"text":"判例就是當時違反了無罪推定的原則在沒有積極的人證物證情況底下依然要去起訴雷學明等人然後他們也獲得了冤獄的賠償這個案子你有什麼看法是這點我說明一下就是我剛剛有稍微提一下就是無罪推定是訴訟法的規定每一位被告"},{"start":440.959,"end":448.87,"text":"他就是被告被提出告訴也好告發也好他成為被告他事實上必須要受到無罪推定的保護"},{"start":450.031,"end":474.237,"text":"那檢察官偵查之後如果認為證據足夠證明他有足夠的犯罪嫌疑有足夠的 suspicion他就要起訴這是一個必須我在問你雷學敏的案件你覺得他的人證物證是不是足夠因為法院的判決覺得不足夠我講就是說起訴的決定是其他的檢察官"},{"start":475.461,"end":490.018,"text":"我起訴之後要進行公訴因為你也參與這個案子嘛所以我現在是要問你說你現在回過頭來看當時是不是人證物證的確是不充分法院的裁定是有道理的我沒有辦法這樣很肯定這樣講啦"},{"start":491.121,"end":494.463,"text":"檢察官起訴跟法官判決有罪的標準是不一樣的"},{"start":506.411,"end":528.351,"text":"也就是說檢察官認為如果說還是要依照證據為原則吧當然當然所以我在問你啊那個案子人證物證到底充不充分啊證明的標準我們可以講是不一樣的就是說我在當檢察官的時候我認為有相當的犯罪的嫌疑夠了我認為可以起訴所以我現在是說你現在回頭過來看這個案子的時候你怎麼評價嗎"},{"start":530.152,"end":547.626,"text":"當法院做出跟你當時的看法不一樣的時候你怎麼評價自己當時這麼積極的一個無罪的判決的案件我現在不適合發表任何評論案子已經過去了對這個不適合現在目前還有一部分的案件犯罪所得的"},{"start":548.496,"end":556.461,"text":"那個追那個追索現在還在進行在歐洲還有些地方在其他在加勒比亞當時起訴的決定不是我做的"},{"start":563.24,"end":589.711,"text":"起訴的決定不是我做的所以呢蔡平民人我覺得你在回答上面遇到對你有利的你會承認是自己遇到對你不利的你就說不是你我覺得這樣一個態度好像就是不是在一件事情上這樣被檢視起來就會覺得你會有意另外一個我要問你的是你當時擔任法務部國兩司司長的時候呢有發生一件陳同佳"},{"start":590.351,"end":609.888,"text":"杀害女友的很重大的命案当时台湾人民也非常的愤怒觉得陈同佳应该要受台湾的刑事处罚但是这件事情陈同佳他在香港他是另外一个案子他服役完出狱之后他要来台湾自首"},{"start":612.17,"end":635.765,"text":"當時誰擋了陳同佳的投案之路你當時司法務部國兩司的司長在這件事情上你的態度跟角色又是什麼我基本的看法是被告如果要主動來投案那我覺得是不需要透過司法互助的途徑的也就是說他要來投案基本上他是可以來"},{"start":638.204,"end":663.67,"text":"這個案子因為他是一個殺人案件他是一個殺人案件他本身因為他已經有殺人的之前的事實他事實上有些安全的疑慮那當時呢要去當時的政府包括法務部包括警政署他們認為說如果陳同佳如果是陳同佳要來投案那"},{"start":665.427,"end":688.815,"text":"應該有人去陪同就是說戒護因為他要坐飛機來在飛機上事實上有可能有安全的餘力當時港方有人陪同啊所以呢他們就派人去香港那有跟香港當局溝通說能不能把陳同佳送到飛機上比如說送到登機門"},{"start":690.015,"end":696.101,"text":"由台灣的檢察人員去解釋我只是要問你你當時是國兩司的司長你又擔任過檢察官照道理來講你對一個殺人犯你應該是會主張要緊急來偵辦當時的立場是這樣子你有沒有去說服你的長官"},{"start":710.901,"end":723.974,"text":"我盡量 我有盡力說服啦你當時是這樣的立場是不是是 是這樣的立場所以最後你沒有說服你的長官最後還是這件個案到現在還是完全沒有辦法讓陳同佳逍遙法外不是那麼順暢"},{"start":728.879,"end":755.379,"text":"這個是我們看到的情況另外一個呢你在被提名的記者會上面這個蕭副總統呢他指示提名蔡秋名是為了提升國安案件的專業能量確保國家安全所以他指示然後呢你就很快的回應你說提升國安案件專業能量是任內的首要任務但是在今天你的書面報告這個"},{"start":757.537,"end":777.977,"text":"案件專業能量沒有在你的重點任務裡面你直接把它標示出來我要問的是你當時是因為記者會去附和蕭副總統的話還是你是真心的認為你來擔任司法院的院長你是要完成提升國安案件的專業能量"},{"start":780.433,"end":807.604,"text":"其實我現在有點忘記我沒有講說提案提升國安的媒體是怎麼登 我不太確定那個你可以看一下我的PPT就是是我的上任的首要業務這點我不確定這點我沒有這樣講這點我不確定但是我想國安問題在台灣現在目前我覺得相當的是一個嚴重的問題那很多國民都引以為憂啦作為一個國民我覺得國安問題是重要的"},{"start":808.448,"end":829.091,"text":"那是不是你的首要任務我現在在問你一遍你可以澄清國安問題基本上不是大法官的工作的內容因為他是要做憲法法庭的審判但是如果在司法院院長的職務裡面他事實上會跟這個問題有點關係"},{"start":830.832,"end":854.781,"text":"就是因為在目前還有國安專題就是你上任之後提升國安案件專業能量是不是你的首要任務我不能講說這是我的首要任務我想還有更直接的一個社團院長要做的事情所以你當時在記者會是為了呼應蕭副總統所以就講出這樣的話沒有這個意思"},{"start":855.521,"end":878.869,"text":"沒有這個意思我到底有沒有講這個話我們再確認一下我不算確定有或者是沒有但是我這個應該不是我的意思不是你的意思你講的但是不是你的意思好這個目前為止發現蔡提名有一個問題就是說你講過的話呢你都會說好像不是你的意思包括"},{"start":879.669,"end":896.772,"text":"其實你也講過一段話在台灣法官比較靜態檢察官比較動態因此未來如果有機會讓兩個工作有一段時間互相交換接觸增加視野與經歷可能會有益法官的身心健康"},{"start":898.527,"end":920.825,"text":"這段話是不是你講的這段話是我講的但是我講這段話是我參考歐洲的一些實務就是特別是德國因為他們法官跟檢察官之間的交流非常的頻繁但是我並沒有聽德國的同事講說因為檢察官跟法官之間的交流讓檢審"},{"start":923.614,"end":950.041,"text":"審檢不分或者是說那我就問你你講這段話未來你擔任司法院院長你是不是要去推動這項制度讓這一個檢察官跟法官兩個工作可以有一段時間互相來交換你要不要推動這個要看實際的需要啦就是這種事情就是我剛剛提到的就是您一剛開始提到就是說我對司法院的業務比較不了解其中的一點"},{"start":951.101,"end":967.367,"text":"我想我有這樣子的這個當然是一個當時的一個想法提名人我提醒你你在回答徐宇峥委員的時候你的態度是說你思慮不周所以你道歉了"},{"start":967.927,"end":995.64,"text":"那你在回答我的時候看起來態度又不一樣我覺得這個前後一致性我們對於一個司法院院長的信任度也是很重要因為這樣子看不出你基本的原則跟立場是什麼接下來我要問的是我們現行的羈押制度有沒有被濫用的問題押人取共你覺得這個在現行的檢察官的作為上面如果有人押人取共你贊不贊成"},{"start":997.728,"end":1026.216,"text":"如果真正是押人提供我當然不贊成真的不贊成嗎但是現行我們看到目前有一些檢察官在做法上面他在證據不充分的情況底下他就使用羈押的手段或者是一再延押的手段想要達成他的調查的目的請問這個我們相關的四字號的解釋跟行送法的相關的規定你認為這樣的一個做法有沒有違法"},{"start":1027.857,"end":1047.957,"text":"這個有沒有違法要看個案就是押忍這件事情我想肯定是很多羈押的案件但是為什麼會羈押我想他有法定的理由那我如果不去了解這些事實的狀況那我就隨便做評論我覺得事實不負責任"},{"start":1048.717,"end":1076.306,"text":"好這一個部分也是現在讓民眾覺得害怕的問題因為如果是這種押忍取共事實上已經是侵害人權了那未來你要擔任是司法院的院長我想保障人權是司法院非常重要的一個責任跟角色這個部分我們現在看到的是現行的法院有很多當檢察官提出羈押的時候法院的審理好像都是照單全收"},{"start":1077.026,"end":1096.595,"text":"並沒有在審理上面真正的好好認真的再去做一些適度的研判這個如果將來沒有機會擔任司法院院長這個部分應該是要好好檢討一下另外一個就是有關於這個行政跟司法之間的立法之間的衝突"},{"start":1097.515,"end":1117.549,"text":"你曾經說過中央機關有法律及政治面挑戰我認為適合由司法院來解決所以代表未來你如果擔任司法院院長的時候你會更大幅的去受理有關於行政跟立法之間的爭議是這樣子嗎你有講過這段話"},{"start":1119.124,"end":1140.079,"text":"我想這個是憲法法庭的任務之一就是說如果有機關之間的職權的爭議的話他們是可以提申請到由憲法法庭來解決那這個是一個被動的受理因為說法官的立場就是說他是不告不理"},{"start":1140.859,"end":1149.668,"text":"所以他不能是直接說來你們的正義我來解決不會有這樣的事情就是說他如果有這樣的案件那麼就依法處理"},{"start":1151.236,"end":1178.505,"text":"我們可以看到過去憲法法庭事實上在針對一些不受理的高度爭議的申請案這個也是很常見的包括2016年監察院的不當黨產條例是不受理的2018年立法院的前瞻的違憲疑慮也不受理2022年林黛嬅提的這個也不受理2024年賴香林勞保基金違憲疑慮也是不受理"},{"start":1179.085,"end":1208.25,"text":"但是如果未來的這個憲法法庭要受理的是屬於行政跟立法之間的衝突的話那等於是把憲法法庭自己也捲入了一些政治的紛爭當中那我們希望台灣的司法其實是真正可以是超然獨立的那在受理跟不受理的這些標準我覺得未來如果你有機會擔任司法院院長這個真的是要好好思考清楚的"},{"start":1208.87,"end":1219.262,"text":"絕對不是因為是當權好 謝謝王玉敏委員的詢問也謝謝蔡備提名人的說明"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時43分）謝謝主席，有請蔡提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請蔡提名人。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：蔡提名人你好。上午我其實有一直在聽你回答委員的一些回應，剛剛我聽了你回答林岱樺委員，坦白講，我幫你捏了一把冷汗，你說你對司法院的業務不是很了解，今天你是被提名要擔任司法院院長的人，你在詢答的時候說你對司法院的業務不是很了解，我想問的是：你真的準備好了嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對不起。"],["王委員育敏：你真的準備好要當司法院院長了嗎？你對司法院的業務不了解，那你怎麼可以擔任司法院院長呢？為什麼賴總統會提名你呢？是不是有更多比你更熟悉司法院業務的人、更專業的人更適合這個職務呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想一定有人比我更熟悉司法院的業務。"],["王委員育敏：所以你是最適合的人選嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我自己不確定我是不是最適合的人選，但是我覺得我應該是適當的人選之一，我想擔任一個重要的職務，除了能力跟經驗以外，我覺得人品很重要……"],["王委員育敏：什麼很重要？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：以我自己的評估，我自己對自我的評價，我覺得人品是好的。"],["王委員育敏：人品，是不是？人品指的是哪一個部分？比其他的人更突出？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想人品最重要的特點是沒有私心，沒有為自己的私利著想，就是有一個職務。其實我在賴總統召見的時候，我自己不知道我會被提名為司法院院長。"],["王委員育敏：所以你到現在還不知道是誰推薦你？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其實我不知道，我一直很好奇……"],["王委員育敏：到現在你還不知道？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：因為這個過程是鄭部長徵詢了我的意見，我跟他講我年紀不小了，所以其實一開始我是婉拒的，但是後來有朋友跟我說，有這個機會就做做看吧，我想如果能夠多為臺灣做一點事情，我覺得如果有這個機會，那我願意，所以我就接受這個推薦。","事實上，我是自我推薦，因為在這個程序上，所以我要……"],["王委員育敏：你是自我推薦？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是自我推薦，所以我們要寫填一些資料，比如自傳等等，我回顧一下我過去的經歷，因為我只當過檢察官，其實之前包括現任的大法官也有檢察官出身，就是當檢察官當到去擔任大法官，基本上應該是沒有問題。也就是之前的檢察官有多數也沒有當過法官，但是當了大法官以後，我覺得他們表現還不錯……"],["王委員育敏：我們就來檢視一下你擔任檢察官時的一些表現。剛剛大家特別提到了有關拉法葉案，事實上，陳長文律師就直指你是核心，也是主辦，但是你剛剛在回答委員詢問的時候，又說不是你起訴的，那我就要具體問你，因為當時大家都知道盧仁發檢察總長受到了上級的命令，當時陳水扁總統下令，然後他施壓要起訴，當時他是交代黃世銘，但是黃世銘不從，才由你來接手，請問你接手之後，你做了什麼事？因為你剛剛迴避說，你沒有起訴雷學明等人，請問你接手之後，你有沒有羈押他們？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我剛剛講過，這個案子是90年7月起訴的，90年7月的時候，我事實上不在北檢……"],["王委員育敏：對，我問你的是盧仁發要求黃世銘接手，但是黃世銘不從，之後是你接手的，你接手之後做了什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我當時是一個基層的檢察官，黃檢察長那時候應該是北檢的檢察長吧？我不太確定，但事實上有其他的學長處理這個案子，我在90年11月從板橋地檢（現在的新北地檢）調到臺北地檢，因為總長知道……"],["王委員育敏：你接手的時候，當時裁定羈押是在你手上嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：應該不是。"],["王委員育敏：應該不是？你很多回答都是有點模糊。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我記憶中應該不是。"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼陳長文律師直指，你就是主要的關鍵人？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：主要的關鍵，我也不曉得為什麼他說我是主要關鍵人……"],["王委員育敏：沒有承辦……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：就是因為我被指示……盧總長施壓黃檢察長，然後叫我去起訴，他原來的意思是這樣，但這完全不是事實。"],["王委員育敏：那我可以請教你雷學明相關人等的案件，你在當中扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我扮演的角色是……"],["王委員育敏：你承辦了哪些內容，你可不可以告訴大家？這個時間，你也可以為自己陳情……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：參加公訴。"],["王委員育敏：公訴你有嘛？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：論告，對。"],["王委員育敏：所以你是主要的公訴檢察官，對不對？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其中之一啦！因為起訴的人……"],["王委員育敏：所以你現在要告訴大家你不是主責，跟你沒有關係？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：不是跟我沒有關係，我不能這樣講，因為我有參與這個公訴，就不能講跟我沒有關係。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：事實上這個案子我是有參與的，但我自己起訴的案件不是這個案子，我起訴的案件是後來的案子，是後來……"],["王委員育敏：這個案子最後是被判無罪。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["王委員育敏：對於你自己擔任公訴的檢察官，現在看到這個案子被判無罪，你當時有沒有檢討自己在當中所扮演的角色？你到底是奉承上命在扮這個角色，還是你有積極去追求一些客觀的事實？因為現在大家都看到這個判決，當時違反了無罪推定原則，在沒有積極人證、物證的情況底下，依然起訴雷學明等人，然後他們也獲得了冤獄的賠償，對這個案子你有什麼看法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這點我說明一下，我剛剛有稍微提一下，就是無罪推定是訴訟法的規定，每一位被告被提出告訴也好、告發也好，他成為被告，事實上必須要受到無罪推定的保護。檢察官偵查之後，如果認為證據足夠，證明他有足夠的犯罪嫌疑、有足夠的suspicion，他就要起訴，這是一個必須，叫做起訴法定主義。"],["王委員育敏：我再問你雷學明的案件，你覺得他的人證、物證是不是足夠？因為法院的判決覺得不足夠。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：報告委員，剛剛我講的就是，起訴的決定是其他的檢察官，起訴之後要進行公訴，我有去參與……"],["王委員育敏：因為你也參與這個案子嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以我現在要問你，你現在回過頭來看，當時是不是人證、物證的確是不充分，法院的裁定是有道理的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我沒有辦法很肯定這樣講，但是我剛剛講的是……"],["王委員育敏：所以你當時就是……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：檢察官起訴的……"],["王委員育敏：你承長官的意旨，然後被交辦？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：完全不是。"],["王委員育敏：不是嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：不是，檢察官起訴的標準跟法官判決有罪的標準是不一樣的，也就是檢察官認為如果證據足夠的話……"],["王委員育敏：他還是要依照證據為原則嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然、當然。"],["王委員育敏：所以我在問你，那個案子的人證、物證到底充不充分？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：證明的標準我們可以講是不一樣的，就是我在當檢察官的時候，我認為有相當的犯罪嫌疑，足夠了，我認為可以起訴，我們……"],["王委員育敏：我現在是說你現在回頭過來看這個案子的時候，你怎麼評價？當法院作出的裁定跟你的看法不一樣的時候，你怎麼評價自己當時這麼積極的……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對一個無罪判決的案件，我現在不適合發表任何評論。"],["王委員育敏：這個案子已經過去了啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對，這個不適合評論，目前還有一部分的案件，其犯罪所得的追索現在還在進行，在歐洲還有一些地方，在加勒比海還有一些……"],["王委員育敏：所以你覺得當時還是沒有問題的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我覺得當時起訴的決定不是我作的，所以……"],["王委員育敏：蔡被提名人，我覺得你在回答上面遇到對你有利的會承認是自己，遇到對你不利的就說不是你，我覺得這樣的態度好像不是……在一件事情上這樣被檢視起來，就覺得你會猶疑。另外我要問你的是，你當時擔任法務部國兩司司長的時候有發生一件陳同佳殺害女友的重大命案。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["王委員育敏：當時臺灣人民也非常憤怒，覺得陳同佳應該要受臺灣的刑事處罰，但是陳同佳在香港有另外一個案子，他服刑完出獄之後要來臺灣自首，當時是誰擋了陳同佳的投案之路？你當時是法務部國兩司司長，在這件事情上，你的態度跟角色又是什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我基本的看法是，被告如果要主動投案，我覺得是不需要透過司法互助的途徑，也就是他要來投案，基本上他可以來，但是……"],["王委員育敏：當時是誰阻擋？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個案子是殺人案件，因為他已經有殺人的事實，事實上有一些安全的疑慮，當時的政府機關，包括法務部、警政署，他們認為如果陳同佳要來投案，就應該有人陪同，也就是戒護，因為他要坐飛機來，在飛機上事實上有可能有安全的疑慮，所以……"],["王委員育敏：當時港方有人陪同啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：他們就派人去香港跟香港當局溝通，問說能不能把陳同佳送到飛機上？比如送到登機門，由臺灣的警察人員戒護。"],["王委員育敏：我想細節的部分就不用多討論了。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這是沒有辦法的，因為這個沒有辦法達成決議。"],["王委員育敏：我只是要問你，你當時是國兩司的司長，你又擔任過檢察官，照道理講，對一個殺人犯，你應該是會主張要積極來偵辦。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然，是的。"],["王委員育敏：你當時的立場是這樣子。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我當時的立場是這樣。"],["王委員育敏：你有沒有說服你的長官？你有積極說服嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我有盡力說服。"],["王委員育敏：你當時是這樣的立場，是不是？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是，是這樣的立場。"],["王委員育敏：好，所以最後你沒有說服成你的長官，這個個案到現在還是完全沒有辦法，讓陳同佳逍遙法外，這是我們看到的情況。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想臺灣跟香港的關係不是那麼順暢，其實我剛剛也有提過。"],["王委員育敏：另外，在你被提名的記者會上面，蕭副總統表示：「提名蔡秋明是為了提升國安案件的專業能量，確保國家安全」，然後你就很快地回應說：「提升國安案件專業能量是任內的首要任務」，但是在你今天的書面報告中，國安案件專業能量並沒有在你直接標示出來的重點任務裡面。我要問的是，這是你當時因為記者會附和蕭副總統的話，還是你是真心認為，你來擔任司法院的院長，是要完成提升國安案件的專業能量？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其實我現在有點忘記，我有沒有說提升國安的……"],["王委員育敏：媒體有報。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：媒體是怎麼刊登的，我不太確定。"],["王委員育敏：你可以看一下我的PPT。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：說是我上任的首要業務，這點我不確定，我有沒有這樣講，這點我不確定，但是我覺得國安問題目前在臺灣是一個相當嚴重的問題，很多國民都引以為憂，作為一個國民，我覺得國安問題是重要的，但是我並沒有……"],["王委員育敏：那是不是你的首要任務？我現在再你問一遍，你可以澄清。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這並不是當大法官的任務，國安問題基本上不是大法官的工作內容，因為他是要做憲法法庭的審判，如果在司法院院長的這個職務裡面，事實上會跟這個問題有點關係。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：就是因為我們目前沒有國安專庭……"],["王委員育敏：我要你在這邊很慎重地再回答一次，就是提升國安案件專業能量，是不是你上任之後的首要任務？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我不能說這是我的首要任務，我想司法院院長還有更直接要做的事情。"],["王委員育敏：所以你當時在記者會是為了呼應蕭副總統，才講出這樣的話？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：沒有，我沒有這個意思。"],["王委員育敏：沒有這個意思？但你講出了這樣的話。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我到底有沒有講這句話，我們再確認一下，我不是很確定有或者是沒有，但這個應該不是我的意思。"],["王委員育敏：不是你的意思？你講的，但不是你的意思？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是不是我講的，我不知道。"],["王委員育敏：好，到目前為止，我發現蔡被提名人有一個問題，就是你講過的話，你都會說好像不是你的意思，包括你也講過一段話：「在臺灣法官比較靜態，檢察官比較動態，因此未來如果有機會讓兩個工作有一段時間互相交換、接觸，增加視野與經歷，可能會有益法官的身心健康。」這段話是不是你講的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這段話是我講的。"],["王委員育敏：是你講的嘛？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我講這段話是我參考歐洲的一些實務，特別是德國，因為他們法官跟檢察官之間的交流非常頻繁。但是我並沒有聽德國的同事說因為檢察官跟法官之間的交流，讓審檢不分，或者是法官的獨立性會喪失。"],["王委員育敏：那我就問你，你講這段話，未來你擔任司法院院長，你是不是要去推動這項制度，讓檢察官跟法官的工作可以有一段時間互相交換？你要不要推動？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個要看實際的需要，這種事情就是我剛剛提到的，您一剛開始也提到，我對司法院的業務比較不了解其中的一點，我想這是我當時的一個想法，就是……"],["王委員育敏：被提名人，我提醒你，你在回答許宇甄委員的時候，你的態度是說你思慮不周，所以你道歉，但你在回答我的時候，看起來態度又不一樣，我覺得前後一致性對於我們對司法院院長的信任度也是很重要，因為這樣子看不出你基本的原則跟立場是什麼。","接下來，我要問你的是，我們現行的羈押制度有沒有被濫用的問題？你覺得押人取供在現行檢察官的作為上面，如果有人押人取供，你贊不贊成？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：如果真正是押人取供，我當然不贊成。"],["王委員育敏：不贊成嘛！但是我們看到目前有一些檢察官在作法上面，在證據不充分的情況底下，他就使用羈押的手段，或者是一再延押的手段，想要達成他調查的目的，請問我們相關釋字的解釋，跟刑訟法相關的規定，你認為這樣的作法有沒有違法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：有沒有違法要看個案啦！押人這件事情……我想肯定是有很多羈押的案件，但是檢察官為什麼會羈押？我想他有法定的理由啦，我如果不去了解這些事實的狀況就隨便做評論，我覺得是不負責任的。"],["王委員育敏：好。這個部分也是現在讓民眾覺得害怕的問題，因為如果是這種押人取供，事實上已經是侵害人權……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員育敏：未來你要擔任司法院的院長，我想保障人權是司法院非常重要的一個責任跟角色，但是我們看到現行的法院有很多當檢察官提出羈押的時候，法院的審理好像都是照單全收，並沒有在審理上面真正好好認真的再去做一些適度的研判，如果將來你有機會擔任司法院院長，這個部分應該是要好好檢討一下。","另外，有關行政跟立法之間的衝突，你曾經說過：中央機關有法律及政治面挑戰，我認為適合由司法院來解決。所以代表你未來如果擔任司法院院長的時候，你會更大幅地去受理有關於行政跟立法之間的爭議，是這樣子嗎？你有講過這段話。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個是憲法法庭的任務之一，就是如果有機關之間職權的爭議，他們是可以聲請由憲法法庭來解決，這個是被動的受理，因為大法官的立場就是不告不理，他不能直接說，你們的爭議我來解決，不會有這樣的事情，所以如果有這樣的案件，那麼我們就依法處理。"],["王委員育敏：對，我們可以看到事實上過去憲法法庭在針對一些不受理、高度爭議的聲請案，這個也是很常見的，包括2016年監察院的不當黨產條例是不受理的；2018年立法院前瞻的違憲疑慮也不受理；2022年林岱樺提的案子也不受理；2024年賴香伶勞保基金違憲疑慮也是不受理。但是，如果未來的憲法法庭要受理的是屬於行政跟立法之間的衝突的話，等於是把憲法法庭自己也捲入了一些政治的紛爭當中。我們希望臺灣的司法其實是可以真正超然獨立的，在受理跟不受理的這些標準上，我覺得未來如果你有機會擔任司法院院長，這個真的要好好思考清楚的，絕對不是因為是當權派所提出的就受理，以上，謝謝。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的詢問，也謝謝蔡被提名人的說明。","接下來，我們請林淑芬委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d58db3fd15e780adbb9914535bb497189ef9fef188de1ed204083b6116c1c0933fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:16:42 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那司法院的統計全國已進入到法院審理的青少年涉詐的人數除了2017年首度超過一萬人回顧前三年2019到2022年"},{"start":95.194,"end":108.469,"text":"9000人以上這樣的青少年好我們再來看這樣的一個詐欺的金流流程那眾所皆知最末端現場趨緩的都是青少年居多的車手"},{"start":108.989,"end":136.085,"text":"好最容易逮捕也風險最大因為機房跟地下會隊都在國外警方是難以查緝未成年擔任車手的趨勢是逐年飆升這也是未來司法院長您應該要拿出更好的策略跟作為好我們來看這前端警政署的打詐一張表我就追溯今天是7月9號在7月7號禮拜一的時候當天有481件的詐騙受領"},{"start":138.766,"end":149.88,"text":"財產損失當天3億4千萬我就以這個數據一年擴大一年的推估481件一天365天就有17萬5千多件這是報案紀錄"},{"start":154.446,"end":172.68,"text":"因天的損失3億4千萬那一年一年來就有1241億這是本期保守枯竹實質的金額是這個的雙倍以上這對我國人跟每個家庭都是傾天霹靂而且是難以堪受的打擊"},{"start":173.46,"end":187.709,"text":"好 警方這麼的努力那我們來看法院的部分這個表是司法院司法業務年報當中取得的他以地方法院少年刑事第一審的訴訟案件終結的案子"},{"start":189.51,"end":217.882,"text":"你看三年半前有111年15件112年16件這都終結了113年16件今年未過半1到5月3件這表示什麼意思呢也就是說每年上萬名的涉詐行為的青少年真的到了司法院不管是少年法庭或者是地方法院真正被判刑的比例是相當低"},{"start":218.462,"end":240.456,"text":"百分之一都不到所以未來司法院長就應該責務方帶去正視青少年參與詐欺逐年飆升的趨勢又要減少青少年參與詐騙又要保護被害人的權益好我們再來提供前端的警察人員是多麼的認真這是三年半前他們捕捉到車手"},{"start":242.037,"end":249.843,"text":"這個少年擔任車手的部分111年685人112年雙倍了1279年113年再雙倍2354年4人再到今年還未過半1到5月已經1192人前5個月已經達到112年前年的"},{"start":265.415,"end":281.353,"text":"總年度逮捕的車手的人數了這個數據呈現什麼了詐騙集團非常樂意讓青少年當車手來規避這個責任金三祖在前端認真的查緝實時進入到司法院審判的程序"},{"start":282.053,"end":288.841,"text":"青少年的案件卻非常偏少不管是在少年法庭或者是地方法院我這邊要講明的是我不是說要把這些青少年抓起來關"},{"start":297.891,"end":316.734,"text":"而是要青少年進入到法院的時候你願意給他武器你的院方要給下面的警察跟檢調單位武器讓他去共出車手的上方的幕後集團是誰但是對於青少年就應該依照青少年的相關的保護原則"},{"start":317.835,"end":333.805,"text":"給予符合他的身心專快的矯正而不是要判重刑這個分析要強調但是你要給他能夠法院當中要給檢察官要給警察這樣的一個力量去供出讓這個青少年去供出上面的首腦才是正版"},{"start":334.765,"end":357.725,"text":"好那司法院你如何改善呢司法院還要繼續放縱少年車手成為詐騙集團的人才資料庫嗎好在這邊我們這個少年事件的處理法本期想要問的您認為有沒有要修法的必要本期知道少年事件處理法的主管計方是法務不擔"},{"start":358.906,"end":378.89,"text":"真的在做疑審的單位決定要不要疑審要不要繼續偵查的單位是法院所以本席要問如果少年法院過度採取少年保護主義原則讓詐騙集團的首腦大量吸收未成年者成為詐騙流程中最關鍵的前方"},{"start":379.07,"end":403.89,"text":"封部隊這個就是顯化好我們來看保護主義原則本席是非常認同的但是法律是基於少年親自會成熟避免對少年造成過度的壓力或侵害這是我們應該要去執行的但是如果法院無限上綱少年保護主義原則也使得警方在偵查當中無法迅速追查幕後組織"},{"start":405.111,"end":422.916,"text":"本席要講的是這個但是青少年你應該依照青少年不是要重判而是要好好的給予矯正符合他身心狀況的要給予矯正這才是正辦我再次的第二次的強調好那現況是案件移送少年法庭之後少年法庭具有先議權"},{"start":424.355,"end":451.96,"text":"所以檢察官既不能介入警方的偵查權也受限無法繼續偵辦就讓詐騙集團爐爐無人之地搜刮台灣人民的財產幫派及犯罪集團利用這些程序的限制吸收了少年從事犯罪警方難以追緝幕後組織只能查獲少年車手等末端人員溯源效果大打折扣院長提名人你怎麼看呢如果你未來擔任院長如何來解決這樣的問題呢"},{"start":454.581,"end":468.161,"text":"委員剛剛對少年犯涉入詐欺集團的詐騙案件,只成了非常非常清楚,可能比我還了解。那成少共犯這個問題確實是一個很大的問題。"},{"start":470.885,"end":493.03,"text":"事實上是少年人因為少年犯他不是自己犯罪他是跟成年人一起犯罪你直接告訴我你上任之後你馬上怎麼做這已經是國安議題了也是總統跟國人就算總統沒給他升級到國安議題也是我們全台人民現在最痛苦的一件事情是一點都沒錯那你怎麼做呢你只要告訴我你上任之後你的方法是什麼"},{"start":493.746,"end":494.026,"text":"院長我具體建議啦"},{"start":512.888,"end":527.896,"text":"就是要把這個少年就是來詢問就是對少年犯也能夠詢問但是現在的問題是警察官可能因為法律限制的關係少年事件處理法的關係所以可能沒有辦法達到目的"},{"start":532.998,"end":551.566,"text":"一個月內 召集所有您所有相關的主管跟全國相關的法官在你的下面所屬的相關的人跟這個案子有關的相關的主管來討論有沒有修法的必要 好嗎一個月內可以嗎"},{"start":552.786,"end":569.62,"text":"與其你在我這邊跟我講說你的看法我覺得你已經是院長你沒有辦法去你當然院長當中你如何讓你的法官去認同這件事情這才是你讓你的少年法庭的法官能夠認同這件事情你做一個司法院院長怎麼做啊"},{"start":571.407,"end":574.469,"text":"第一個你的態度認不認爲你擔任司法院長這個是重中之重少年車手成爲詐騙集團的千鋒部隊搜刮我台灣人民的財產這件事情你的態度是什麼第二個你的做法是什麼 請回答"},{"start":587.178,"end":608.648,"text":"這確實是重要問題但是我跟委員報告我現在還沒有上任老師講對司法院的一些業務這個主要是少年家事廳這邊的業務其實我不那麼熟但是我在高檢在任職的時候我曾經聽過同事也跟檢察長討論過這個問題至少你的態度很明確你認為應該責無旁貸的作為優先的處理的業務我想是優先要處理"},{"start":616.492,"end":637.592,"text":"好 另外一個議題 這個司法改革的核心是法官如何讓優秀的人才願意擔任法官司法體系依靠的是法官依法獨立審判但是法官過勞的問題如何改善 請具體說明法官過勞的問題其實最主要的案件來源是剛剛委員所提到的詐欺案件"},{"start":638.427,"end":658.667,"text":"因為炸氣案件這幾年突然增加那炸氣案件增加這一點司法院其實要減少炸氣案件這一點事實上它有它的困難因為它沒有辦法去直接就是我剛剛有提到在口頭報告的時候提到就是說怎麼減少入口案件量案件是從"},{"start":660.203,"end":686.861,"text":"就是檢察官起訴然後送到法院這邊來所以在這個階段我沒有辦法去減少他的案件量就是已經進來我沒有辦法去減少案件量但是有一個問題就是說我也第一個在討論檢討這個問題的時候我也第一項提到就是說從案件的負擔這麼重法官的工作量這麼重當然就是因為人力不夠嘛這才很簡單但是呢"},{"start":687.722,"end":708.948,"text":"我們有一個很大的困難就是說我們的總元額法他的規定是非常的嚴格就是因為他不只是處理法官人數的問題他要處理所有公務人員的問題所以他的限制是很大的就是說他限制很高我們盡量去爭取那就法官的人數來講的話那我們會盡力"},{"start":713.09,"end":732.11,"text":"希望能夠增援因為在目前的案件量真的是這不是人過人沒辦法所以你認為增加援爾這是你認為要解套的一個良心其中一個辦法包括您在這個詐騙案件量的如何的來減少這件事情你也會來做處理"},{"start":733.391,"end":753.669,"text":"是嗎這是兩個您的案件量減少這個東西我們沒有辦法承諾因為這個社員確實不是社員做得到的三天案件量的減少要仰賴偵查機關要仰賴行政部門來幫忙所以增加員額是你認為其中一個辦法還有呢"},{"start":757.594,"end":781.45,"text":"那就是我們現在的案件量的負擔當然就是因為程序他比較冗長他程序比較冗長那另外一個就是他的法官的工作的負擔他有兩個方面第一個他很很長時間發停發在月卷開庭這樣子的那另外一個就是製作書類那現在的書類現在的判決書動輒上百頁動輒幾十頁所以他的文書的"},{"start":788.596,"end":799.393,"text":"製作的負擔很重那我們會想辦法來減輕他的文書製作的負擔我想這是還蠻重要的這是第二個方案那還有呢"},{"start":800.656,"end":819.084,"text":"剛剛也講到程序的問題看是能夠再精簡另外一個就是看有沒有辦法再補充其他的人力比如說退休的人員我們有沒有辦法以什麼樣的方式請他們可以回來幫忙不管是哪一種忙我們都很歡迎"},{"start":819.784,"end":835.758,"text":"那再來就是輔助人力的問題,我想法官的人力跟輔助人力的問題,現在有一個很大的問題,就是比如說書記官,現在書記官離朝,離世朝非常的多,非常可怕,就是他現在沒有人願意當書記官,為什麼沒有人願意當書記官,因為待遇很少,"},{"start":836.687,"end":857.975,"text":"然後工作量很多所以這個問題我們也要想辦法看怎麼解決一個書記官的待遇甚至可能比法官助理還要少他是一個有職務保障的一個書記官但是他的待遇其實是就工作量來講是算是相當的微薄了那這一點我覺得我們應該來正視這個問題看跟"},{"start":862.796,"end":887.761,"text":"就這事項嗎第一個增加法官的援額第二個我們的這個文書的業務量如何的減少第三個整個作業的流程整個檢視整個的這個法官審理的流程如何有簡化的可能性第四個就是對輔助人力例如書記官他的薪資所得的提高就這事項您認為這個是能夠解決法官過勞的現況嗎還有呢"},{"start":890.967,"end":919.555,"text":"你們努力了但是其他我想我剛講過我就是我也還沒有上任其實對世華運營的業務也不是非常非常的了解但是我們世華運營有很多各事處有很多人才那有很多專業人員他們對這些問題我想他會比我更深入所以我必須要到時候還要請教以及跟他們討論來怎麼樣來解決問題有沒有其他的辦法"},{"start":919.875,"end":936.861,"text":"大把關過牢也納入如果能夠擔任院長的話也擔任您重要的就是首先優先要處理的這個業務嗎是的所以本席提到這兩項如果您未來擔任司法院長第一個處理這個詐騙車手詐騙的問題那第二個跟少年犯有關"},{"start":942.286,"end":969.568,"text":"對當然少年犯就青少年擔任車手的一個在這個司法院的體制內當中如何來來減少這樣的如何面對這樣的一個青少年來擔任這個這個詐騙集團的前鋒部隊的議題第二個法官過勞你也是願意擔任願意最優先的來做處理你的業務的首要十大您上任之後的十大業務推動的其中兩項是嗎"},{"start":970.669,"end":971.651,"text":"其中兩項 可以講一下好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（10時16分）有請院長提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請蔡被提名人說明。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：林委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：本席想針對兩個議題跟院長提名人做個討論，第一個是少年車手成為詐騙集團的主流，第二個是法官過勞的問題。我們來看幾個數據跟報導，在2023年已經有這樣的報導：「『少年車手』世代的誕生：詐欺集團裡，一具具殘破屍體堆疊的代價」，詐騙集團是進得去、出不來，為的就是詐騙集團的永續經營，這樣的狀況有沒有得到緩解？沒有！在今年6月的報導：「少年涉詐5年新高，6成當車手、車手頭」，這個名詞從哪裡來呢？2017年在臺灣治安史上相當特殊的一年，一種新型的大宗青少年涉法模式，竟遭到非正式的命名。根據警政署的統計，在2017年涉詐集團遭捕的青少年首度飆破萬人，而且已經超越各種青少年犯罪型態，因此被廣稱為「少年車手世代」的誕生，這正是臺灣治安的一大隱憂。司法院統計，全國已進入到法院審理的青少年涉詐人數，除了2017年首度超過1萬人，回顧前三年（2019年到2022年），每年的涉案人數也平均在9,000人以上。","我們再來看詐欺案件的金流流程，眾所皆知，最末端現場取款的車手都是青少年居多，最容易逮捕，風險也最大，因為機房跟地下匯兌都在國外，警方難以查緝。未成年擔任車手的趨勢逐年飆升，這也是未來司法院長，您應該要拿出更好的策略跟作為。我們來看最前端警政署的打詐儀錶板，今天是7月9號，在7月7號禮拜一的時候，當天有481件詐騙受理，財產損失3億4,000萬，我就以這個數據擴大一年的推估，一天481件，365天就有十七萬五千多件，這是報案紀錄；一天的損失3億4,000萬，一年來就有1,241億，這是本席保守估計，實質金額是這個的雙倍以上，這對我國國人跟每個家庭都是晴天霹靂，而且是難以承受的打擊。","警方這麼的努力，我們來看法院的部分。這個表是從司法院司法業務年報當中取得的，以地方法院少年刑事第一審訴訟案件終結的案子來看，你看到三年半前，這都是終結的案子，111年15件、112年16件、113年16件，今年未過半，1到5月3件，這表示什麼意思呢？也就是每年上萬名的涉詐行為青少年真的到了司法院，不管是少年法庭或者是地方法院，真正被判刑的比例相當低，1%都不到，所以未來司法院院長就應該責無旁貸去正視青少年參與詐欺逐年飆升的趨勢，既要減少青少年參與詐騙，又要保護被害人的權益。","好，我們再來提供前端的警察人員是多麼地認真，這是三年半前他們捕捉到少年擔任車手的部分，111年685人，112年雙倍，1,279人，113年再雙倍，2,354人，再到今年還未過半，1到5月已經1,192人，前5個月已經快達到112年（前年）總年度逮捕車手的人數了，這個數據呈現什麼呢？詐騙集團非常樂意讓青少年當車手來規避責任。警政署在前端認真地查緝，實質進入到司法院審判程序的青少年案件卻偏少，不管是在少年法庭或者是地方法院，受害的是誰？全臺灣人民，聞詐色變卻束手無策。我這邊要講明的是，我不是說要把這些青少年抓起來關，而是青少年進入到法院的時候，你願意給他武器，院方要給下面的警察跟檢調單位武器，讓他供出車手上游的幕後集團是誰，但是對於青少年就應該依照青少年的相關保護原則，給予符合他身心狀況的矯正，而不是要判重刑，這個本席要強調，法院要給檢察官、警察這樣的力量，讓青少年供出上面的首腦才是正辦。","司法院如何改善呢？司法院還要繼續放縱少年車手成為詐騙集團的人才資源庫嗎？好，在這邊本席想要問，您認為少年事件處理法有沒有修法的必要？本席知道少年事件處理法的主管機關是法務部，但真的在做移審的單位，決定要不要移審、要不要繼續偵查的單位是法院，如果少年法院過度採取少年保護主義原則，讓詐騙集團的首腦大量吸收未成年者成為詐騙流程中最關鍵的前鋒部隊，這個就是現況。好，我們來看保護主義原則，本席是非常認同的喔！但法律是基於少年心智未成熟，避免對少年造成過度的壓力或侵害，這是我們應該要去執行的。但是，如果法院無限上綱少年保護主義原則，也使得警方在偵查當中無法迅速追查幕後組織，本席要講的是這個，但是對於青少年，不是要重判，而是要好好地給予矯正，符合他身心狀況給予矯正，這才是正辦，我再次、第二次強調。好，那現況是案件移送少年法庭之後，少年法庭具有先議權，所以檢察官既不能介入，警方的偵查權也受限，無法繼續偵辦，就讓詐騙集團如入無人之地，搜刮臺灣人民的財產，幫派級犯罪集團利用這些程序的限制，吸收了少年從事犯罪，警方難以追緝幕後組織，只能查獲少年車手等末端人員，溯源效果大打折，院長提名人，你怎麼看？如果你未來擔任院長，如何來解決這樣的問題呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：委員剛剛對少年犯涉入詐欺集團的詐騙案件指陳得非常非常清楚，可能比我還了解，成少共犯這個問題確實是一個很大的問題。如委員剛剛講的，事實上是因為少年犯不是自己犯罪，他是跟成年人一起犯罪……"],["林委員岱樺：院長提名人，你直接告訴我你上任之後，你馬上怎麼做？這已經是國安議題了，也是總統跟國人……就算總統沒給它升級到國安議題，也是全臺灣人民現在最痛苦的一件事情。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是，一點都沒錯。"],["林委員岱樺：對，那您怎麼做呢？你只要告訴我，你上任之後，你的方法是什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個問題可能會涉及到修法啦！但現在的問題是，涉案的少年送到少年法院以後，有可能檢察官因為他在偵辦成年犯的案子，這中間有共犯關係……"],["林委員岱樺：院長，我具體建議啦……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：可能要借調，也就是要把這個少年調來訊問，但現在的問題是，檢察官因為法律限制的關係、少年事件處理法的關係，所以可能沒有辦法達到目的。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，本席具體建議，看你願不願這樣做？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是，這個我想有非常值得討論的空間。"],["林委員岱樺：你上任之後的一個月內召集所有相關的主管跟全國相關的法官，在你下面所屬相關的人、跟這個案子有關的相關主管來討論有沒有修法的必要，好嗎？一個月內可以嗎？與其你在這邊跟我講你的看法，我覺得你已經是院長，你沒有辦法去……院長如何讓少年法庭的法官能夠認同這件事情，您身為司法院院長要怎麼做啊？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：委員，我想我……"],["林委員岱樺：兩個啦！第一個，你的態度，你認不認為擔任司法院院長這個是重中之重，少年車手成為詐騙集團的先鋒部隊，搜刮臺灣人民的財產，這件事情你的態度是什麼？第二個，你的作法是什麼？請回答。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這確實是重要的問題，但是我跟委員報告，我現在還沒有上任，老實講，對於司法院的一些業務，這個主要是少年家事廳的業務，其實我不那麼熟，但是我在高檢任職的時候，我曾經聽過同事，也跟檢察長討論過這個問題。"],["林委員岱樺：好，至少你的態度很明確，你認為應該責無旁貸的作為優先處理的業務，是嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想是優先要處理的業務之一，謝謝。"],["林委員岱樺：另外一個議題，司法改革的核心是法官，如何讓優秀人才願意擔任法官，司法體系依靠的是法官依法獨立審判，但是法官過勞的問題如何改善，請具體說明。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：法官過勞的問題其實最主要的案件來源是剛剛委員所提到的詐欺案件，因為詐欺案件這幾年突然增加，詐欺案件增加這一點，司法院其實要減少詐欺案件事實上有他的困難，因為他沒有辦法直接……我剛剛在口頭報告的時候提到怎麼減少入口案件量，案件是從檢察官起訴然後送到法院，所以在這個階段我沒有辦法減少它的案件量，就是已經進來的案件量我沒有辦法減少。但有一個問題就是，在討論檢討這個問題的時候，我在第一項提到，案件負擔這麼重、法官工作量會這麼重當然就是因為人力不夠嘛！這很簡單，但是我們有一個很大的困難就是，總員額法的規定非常嚴格，因為它不只是處理法官人數的問題，也要處理所有公務人員的問題，所以它的限制是很大的，也就是它的限制很高，我們儘量去爭取，就法官人數來講的話，我們會盡力，希望能夠增員，因為目前的案件量真的是……這不是人過的，沒辦法！"],["林委員岱樺：所以你認為增加員額，這是你要……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：員額當然是一定要努力的……"],["林委員岱樺：你認為要解套的一個良方……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這是其中一個辦法。"],["林委員岱樺：包括對於詐騙案件量如何減少的這件事情，你也會處理，是嗎？這是您的兩個……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：案件量減少我沒有辦法承諾，因為這個確實不是司法院做得到的，案件量的減少要仰賴偵查機關、要仰賴行政部門幫忙，所以我們希望……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你認為增加員額是最重……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其中一個辦法。"],["林委員岱樺：還有呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我們現在案件量的負擔當然是因為程序比較冗長，另外一個就是法官工作的負擔有兩個方面，第一個，他有很長的時間花在閱卷、開庭。另外一個就是製作書類，因為現在的書類、現在的判決書動輒上百頁、動輒幾十頁，所以製作文書的工作負擔很重，我們會想辦法來減輕他們文書製作的負擔，我想這還滿重要的。"],["林委員岱樺：好，這是第二個方案。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["林委員岱樺：還有呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：剛剛也講到程序的問題，看是不是能夠再精簡。另外就是看有沒有辦法再補充其他的人力，比如退休的人員，我們有沒有辦法以什麼樣的方式請他們回來幫忙，不管是哪一種忙，我們都很歡迎。再來就是輔助人力的問題，我想法官的人力跟輔助人力的部分，現在有一個很大的問題，比如書記官，現在書記官的離職潮非常多、非常可怕，現在沒有人願意當書記官，為什麼沒有人願意當書記官？因為待遇很少，工作量很多，所以這個問題我們也要想辦法看怎麼解決，書記官的待遇甚至可能比法官助理還要少。他是一個有職務保障的書記官，但是就工作量來講，他的待遇算是相當微薄，這一點我覺得我們應該來正視這個問題，看跟人事單位怎麼來處理。"],["林委員岱樺：就這四項嗎？第一個是增加法官的員額；第二個是文書的業務量如何減少；第三個是整個作業流程，檢視整個法官審理流程如何有簡化的可能性；第四個就是對於輔助人力例如書記官薪資所得的提高，就這四項，您認為這些能夠解決法官過勞的現況嗎？還有呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我們努力，但是其他部分我想……我剛剛講過，我也還沒有上任，其實對於司法院的業務也不是非常、非常了解，但是司法院各司處有很多人才，有很多專業人員，我想他們對這些問題會了解得比我更深入，所以我到時候必須要請教以及跟他們討論怎麼樣來解決問題、有沒有其他的辦法。"],["林委員岱樺：如果能夠擔任院長的話，你願意把法官過勞也納入重要的、首先優先要處理的業務嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["林委員岱樺：所以本席提到這兩項，如果您未來擔任司法院長，第一個，處理車手詐騙的問題；第二個是……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：跟少年犯有關。"],["林委員岱樺：對，當然是少年犯，就是青少年擔任車手，在司法院的體制當中，如何來減少這類問題，以及如何面對這樣一個青少年擔任詐騙集團前鋒部隊的議題；第二個，法官過勞的部分，你也是願意優先來處理，您上任之後首要十大業務推動的其中兩項，是嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：其中兩項，可以這樣講。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。以上。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員的詢問，謝謝蔡被提名人的說明。","報告全院委員會，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時33分）","繼續開會（10時43分）"],["主席：報告全院委員會，現在繼續開會，進行委員詢問。","接下來請王育敏委員詢問，林淑芬委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤"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互不干預"},{"start":117.17,"end":140.405,"text":"而在德國也根據德國基本法與刑事訴訟法的相關規定呢也就於這個審判權的刑事審判權的法院保持組織跟職能上的分離那這也是德國也是審檢分立的一個制度喔那因為蔡被庭人您沒有擔任過法官但是呢您在這個總統府庭庭的記者會提到就是說"},{"start":140.945,"end":155.499,"text":"在台灣法官比較靜態檢察官比較動態所以希望兩個工作未來能有一段時間互相的交換接觸增加視野但是看起來這已經違背釋之第392號所揭示的憲法原則"},{"start":156.8,"end":176.654,"text":"而且台灣40年來都是審檢分立不僅是憲法的保障也是國際司法的標準那這樣的言行其實已經引發社會對您可能破壞司法獨立的一個高度的疑慮是不是可以請您說明一下是的我在被提名的記者會上確實有講過類似的話"},{"start":179.847,"end":205.174,"text":"但是我當時的想法是只針對未來因為我知道現在法官的工作狀態我剛講的算是比較靜態但是他的工作負荷很重所以如果有機會他去做不同的工作事實上就他的工作或者是他的生活形態來講他事實上一個調整那以在台灣來講"},{"start":206.722,"end":224.759,"text":"檢察官轉任法官或者是法官轉任檢察官這個是實施多年的事實就是說這個有輪調制度一直以來到目前為止都還有今年大概有11位檢察官會調到法官來"},{"start":225.74,"end":242.052,"text":"那由法官調去當檢察官的比較少那對於外界的疑慮將對於審檢分立可能違反這樣的原則那你要怎麼來去讓這個司法獨立能夠真正的落實我想我這個說法沒有違法的疑慮因為台灣的審"},{"start":246.256,"end":262.852,"text":"審檢分立已經40幾年40幾年來從來沒有發生過因為檢察官調來當法官以後他就案件他就會判有罪或者是說會有特別法官去當檢察官以後他就不起訴從來沒有發生過這種情況"},{"start":264.434,"end":279.787,"text":"我想這應該也沒有一個要擔任司法院院長的這個被提名人提出這樣的一個主張因為您不是只是這個交流而是要互相交換就剛剛您講的吧檢審互調這樣子一個狀況那當然外界就會質疑未來"},{"start":281.348,"end":300.366,"text":"這個檢審分立的制度是不是會嚴重的被破壞所以其實大家都有這樣的疑慮那剛剛我想貝提名人提到這樣的方式事實上我想並不足以說明也並不足以回應外界的一個質疑所以針對這個部分您是不是可以再重新考慮一下是不是還要推動這樣一個這個檢審護調讓司法獨立變成空談呢"},{"start":304.315,"end":327.583,"text":"我想檢診護調這個事情我剛剛講過是事實現在也在實施中不會破壞司法獨立也不會破壞省檢分立那我如果我之前簡短講過了一些話那有造成誤會我要在這裡跟社會大眾道歉這其實是一個誤解"},{"start":329.324,"end":343.41,"text":"那您剛已經道歉了我想針對這個事情大概也解除了大家的疑慮那另外就是我想請教您就是說您在拉法業界的軍購弊案當中的辦案經驗"},{"start":345.392,"end":370.673,"text":"所以是強調因為追回不罰所得所得得到的貢獻喔但是因為這個案子喔當然我想您追回不罰所得的貢獻大家是可以肯定的但在拉法業案中呢前檢察總長盧仁發因為聽命陳水扁總統的動搖國本也要辦到底的指示喔也對當時的北檢檢察長黃世明施壓要求起訴黃世明因為不從被調職您接手後"},{"start":371.133,"end":392.56,"text":"立刻的這個羈押起訴了雷學明等五人而且還在辯論法庭說判無罪不符合一般的期待判有罪往船府在國外的錢才能匯回來這樣的話這樣是一個檢察官該講的話嗎這是不是已經有這個背離無罪推定的一個原則呢這有三個問題我一一回答"},{"start":393.32,"end":409.826,"text":"第一個問題就是起訴雷學明等案子的這個案件事實上這個案子在起訴是90年7月5號在北檢起訴那時候其實我人在板橋地檢"},{"start":411.209,"end":437.275,"text":"也就是說我是九十年十一月在從板橋地檢的主任檢察官調任台北地檢檢察官所以這個案件起訴的時候我其實我人不在北檢事實上是一個誤會很大的誤會所以這個是第一個如果是一個誤會的話事實上這個媒體報導多年為什麼都沒有看到您在媒體或者在這個這個上面澄清說您並沒有這樣子的一個"},{"start":438.315,"end":466.503,"text":"說法或狀況這個部分的話我想這個部分因為可能是一個無心之過啦因為就是有法學前輩這樣指正嘛因為他跟這個案子有一些關係所以他有一些想法再看法我覺得無可厚非但是但是為什麼您不出來說明真相呢如果您說的當時並不是你所以這個案子是跟你無關嗎不是跟我無關這個案子因為我後來調到北檢以後我就有參與"},{"start":468.188,"end":485.866,"text":"公訴 差異力挺就是我也參加公訴活動參加公訴活動最後在辯論的時候我到底有沒有講過剛剛委員所提過的這兩句話那我不不復記憶因為這是二十幾年前的事情了這是民國九十年嘛但是從一個論告的檢察官"},{"start":488.008,"end":506.587,"text":"來講這兩句話我覺得並沒有什麼過分的地方這是一個檢察官的主張嘛因為這是辯論但是這已經違反了無罪推論而且當時你是針對證據不足的狀況之下起訴了這五位的軍官而後來也因為沒有辦法得到任何的證據顯示"},{"start":507.768,"end":531.627,"text":"這五位軍官跟他的家人是不是真的有被收到相關的匯款或是不法的利益所以最後他們是不是無罪釋放無罪推定的問題我再跟委員解釋一下就是無罪推定確實是我國刑務訴訟法的規定就是你在被告在判決有罪確定之前都是推定為無罪"},{"start":532.851,"end":550.115,"text":"檢察官起訴並不表示他就有罪因為他是無罪推定直到法官判決有罪這個時候他無罪推定才消失請問一下當年如果他被判決無罪那不是符合無罪推定嗎因為他本來就是推定無罪"},{"start":550.535,"end":578.687,"text":"那當年請問你在沒有證據的狀況之下起訴這五位軍官的理由是什麼是因為收到上級的指示必須要指這個還是沒有任何的證據當然不是那時候我去力挺的時候我們已經從瑞士拿回來將近一萬頁的銀行資料的證據換句話說我們已經確定這個案子確實法方付了五億兩千萬的"},{"start":580.543,"end":598.983,"text":"美金的佣金到瑞士的汪傳普以及他家人跟公司的帳戶事實上這個有付佣金那跟雷學明這五位有什麼關係當時你們邊有真正的證據那請問有什麼樣的證據嗎否則當時的秀明法官這個洪英花他也不會在這個判決書這個職次檢察官"},{"start":601.425,"end":626.768,"text":"表態搶攻他講這樣的話其實很重喔表態搶攻有什麼意思要跟誰搶攻就是由上面搶攻嘛所以後來這個案件事實上就是無罪那尤其是賴清德總統他在94年擔任立委的時候也公開指責雷學明等人收賄2000萬美元但雷學明等人最終獲判無罪確定證明當年的指控"},{"start":627.389,"end":654.766,"text":"沒有事實根據而你當為主責檢察官奉命起訴後來被證明清白的人那現在賴總統又提名擔任司法院院長是不是形同對這些被害人事實上是再補一刀尤其是針對這樣子他們當年歷經多年的纏訴然後長期的羈押甚至有人還在案件中含冤而死針對這五位受害者"},{"start":655.646,"end":681.786,"text":"請問你們你有任何的道歉之意嗎我想這個案件案件的事情剛剛王委員講的就是事實上很難評斷因為有些案件法官判無罪檢察官會上訴上訴以後判無罪也有可能我現在只是針對這個案子針對這個案子對這個案子我想會有公平對這個案子我覺得我不方便在這邊表示我的個人的意見"},{"start":682.526,"end":700.414,"text":"因為這是一個案件他是已經判決確定那就是對於當年你們沒有任何證據的之下起訴然後最後獲判無罪您是不是覺得應該對這些被害人道歉呢我覺得這邊可能不方便這樣講因為一個案子其實非常非常的特別是這個案子是國際"},{"start":702.577,"end":723.409,"text":"這樣子貪瀆的案件細節其實非常非常的複雜我想這個司法院的組織法第五條規定大法官需要超出黨派可以獨立行使職權不受任何的干預所以如果你連回答這個問題的勇氣都沒有的話我們未來怎麼能夠相信你能夠超出黨派獨立行使職權呢"},{"start":724.649,"end":741.805,"text":"我就是在請教這個案子您針對這五位最後無罪被釋放的這五位被害者您有沒有這個道歉之意嗎我尊重法院的判決"},{"start":742.486,"end":764.797,"text":"我尊重法院的判決因為法院已經判決無罪那我尊重法院的判決另外再請教您就是最近有發生幾起重大的社會案件但司法機關處理的模式也引發爭論讓人質疑就是保政府不保人民台中市豐原五口的命案理性嫌犯以詐欺恐嚇洗錢等罪嫌移送法辦檢方後來是15萬元交保"},{"start":767.498,"end":792.629,"text":"交保的理由是沒有串供的問題可是理性嫌犯主導王家去地下這個錢莊高利貸 借高利貸明明還有眾多嫌犯這樣會到案 怎麼會沒有串供他交保後還在網路發文幫自己叫屈這是五條人命耶 結果15萬交保而土城家暴的謝姓男子當街殺害妻子小姨子現在因為涉嫌違反這個家暴保護例如說他太太報警"},{"start":793.729,"end":816.16,"text":"那前一天呢 他無保賜回之後隔天就殺死了他的妻子跟小姨子而且手法非常凶殘這兩個案子呢 我們可以看得出來鄭文燦的案件 交保林秉賢的交保之後 落跑通緝鍾文智交保之後 落跑通緝許多人在這個網路反映 重大的社會案件"},{"start":817.196,"end":839.868,"text":"跟親民進黨的人都可以交保那反觀來說做一個梗圖的人必須要羈押禁建疑似偽造文書的人必須要羈押禁建我們知道羈押涉及人權這個字人身自由就有高度的強制性與痛苦性所以非必要不得輕率為之可是我們現在可以看到部分的檢察官在偵判案件的時候都會以"},{"start":840.468,"end":858.263,"text":"羈押作為取共的主要工具跟過去的這個虛打成招事實上完全沒有兩樣所以根據2023年我們3月民間團體公布的司法信心民意調查有高達84.7的民眾認為檢察官辦案受政治力的影響"},{"start":859.344,"end":880.882,"text":"而您過去也因為在這個有政治氛圍下對證據不足的案件人對人起訴無辜的這個記錄而司法院院長是守護司法正義的最後一道防線如果未來總統或行政院長對您提出政治性的要求時候您是不是能夠承諾拒絕配合堅守司法獨立"},{"start":881.823,"end":899.364,"text":"當然我應該遵守就是維持司法堅持司法獨立但是剛剛委員我再強調一遍剛剛委員提到這個案子不是我起訴的所以不是被判無罪我沒有任何這個抱歉的意思或是相類似的評論"},{"start":900.345,"end":929.534,"text":"那至於委員所提到的這幾個案子我也跟委員一樣就是從報紙上得知一些相關的訊息我對這幾個案子了解非常非常有限所以我真的你都報紙上看到這樣的媒體的時候如果你是我們身為一般人民好了你看到會不會非常憤怒五條人命十五萬交保非常遺憾非常非常遺憾所以這個表示我們的在目前的這個司法檢調系統出了很大的問題"},{"start":930.354,"end":954.133,"text":"所以這也是大家非常憤怒的問題那另外呢還有就是要請教您的就是有關廢死的問題因為我看您在您回覆國民黨的問卷當中表示您不支持廢除死刑是嗎是的那您不支持廢除死刑那針對憲判次第八號的判決您的看法咧"},{"start":957.48,"end":981,"text":"第八號他是認為現在的死刑制度不違憲這一點我支持但是以現在是第八號等同是實質廢死了是相當困難是沒錯相當困難好我想請教一下您擔任檢察官近三十年對於這個何義廷的法官必須一致決才能判死在您的實務經驗上有沒有過這樣子的案例何義廷的法官一致決"},{"start":986.499,"end":1002.289,"text":"一致決我自己的經驗判死刑基本上都是一致決了並不是因為有這個判決因為目前的這個宪判第八號是就是三審的法官必須要一致決才能判決嗎"},{"start":1003.109,"end":1018.923,"text":"以您近30年的這個檢察官的一個經歷有沒有過這樣子的一個例子有沒有去統計說一審二審三審全部判死刑老師講的以我當檢察官我案子是判了案件我有曾經起訴案件判死刑過所以"},{"start":1019.483,"end":1036.097,"text":"有還是沒有三審都一致覺得三審我沒有去統計因為統計還是不敢回答不是不敢回答有還是沒有呢因為就我的了解要三審一致決幾乎是難如登天啊"},{"start":1036.958,"end":1052.539,"text":"我相信也沒有一個檢察官有遇過這樣的狀況所以這樣等同是實質廢死所以我很高興聽到您說您不支持廢除死刑可是對於憲判制第八號幾乎是等同是實質廢死的這個部分未來如果您擔任司法院長 您要怎麼來解決"},{"start":1054.293,"end":1074.3,"text":"我想這個案子已經判決了那憲法法庭的判決他是對人民跟機關都有拘束力的那除非有憲法訴訟法第42條這些規定的要件他可以申請人民政府機關都可以申請重新來"},{"start":1075.26,"end":1100.465,"text":"所以在這邊如果沒有這種狀況我想您不支持廢除死刑跟80%的民意是一樣的那當然對於限判制第八號我們其實是非常的遺憾因為等同是實質廢死那未來呢我想尊重大多數的民意尊重八成的民意應該是您作為如果您將來作為司法院長應該要做的事情那另外還有就是針對賴清德總統的實獎賴總統第三獎談到的憲政"},{"start":1104.926,"end":1129.723,"text":"他說五五憲草或中華民國憲法台灣並沒有派員參加而實際上的狀況我相信你很清楚台灣有沒有派員參加沒有什麼我聽不清楚剛剛的問題我說賴清德總統在第三講的時候有提到憲法的相關問題其中他提到五五憲草或者是中華民國憲法台灣並沒有派員參加"},{"start":1132.438,"end":1150.633,"text":"您知道這個台灣到底有沒有派員參加這點老實講我不了解那對政治人物的好我告訴你台灣曾經派出18名這個及審議會各縣市議員農運會工會代表等這個參加制憲會議所以這個都是有你可以看一下"},{"start":1151.334,"end":1170.437,"text":"也有當時的一個名單所以賴清德總統就是公然說謊而且在誤導國人製造對立那被提名人您對賴清德總統的這種行為有何看法我現在證據告訴你了嗎有 有18個人參加那您對於賴清德總統這種造謠製造對立的行為有什麼看法"},{"start":1171.911,"end":1188.684,"text":"我沒有辦法確認說賴總統是不是明明知道說台灣有派員參加而說沒有這一點我沒有辦法確認所以賴總統他自己根本都搞不清楚狀況就提出這樣的質疑是這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":1189.584,"end":1213.94,"text":"這個我沒有辦法評論要不然最後一個總統怎麼會在他要針對這個這個什麼團結時講的時候連這個都搞不清楚就公然的這樣子的造謠製造對立所以如果你連回答這樣的勇氣都沒有的話你要怎麼擔任司法院長不是回答勇氣的問題這是我不知道他的狀況賴總統錯就是錯的他就是造謠不是說他知不知道或是他有沒有在事前了解我覺得這個應該都要非常非常"},{"start":1222.683,"end":1228.052,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝徐宇辰委員的詢問謝謝蔡備提名人的說明"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時55分）謝謝院長，我們請蔡被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩請蔡被提名人說明。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：許委員好！"],["許委員宇甄：被提名人，你好！我想您實任檢察官將近30年的時間，也在一審、二審擔任主任檢察官，而且借調最高檢察署多年，另外，您的專長是刑事司法案件實務，也多次參與最高法院大法庭的言詞辯論，也協助法務部進行憲法訴訟，所以您熟悉司法體系運作，也擅長國際司法交流。","但是因為你這次是被提名為大法官，而且還要擔任司法院長，所以您在3月21日的被提名人介紹記者會指出您未來的兩項工作重點：一個是推動法官與檢察官於一段時間能夠互相交換、接觸，增加不同經驗；第二點是面對五權憲法機關的失衡狀態，涉及憲法層次，適合憲法法庭協助處理解決。針對這個部分，外界質疑會出現審檢一體的亂象，連民進黨黨團的總召都說，檢察官當司法院長當然不妥；您自己也提到，總統提名你，您也覺得不可思議！這也是外界大家的疑慮。","所以想請教蔡被提名人，其實大法官釋字第392號的解釋有明確指出，臺灣審檢分立的制度事實上就是臺灣審檢分立的一個憲法基石。在國際上，日本戰後所制定的檢察廳法也是為了保障審判的獨立，在制度上必須與法院分立，互不干預；在德國，根據德國基本法與刑事訴訟法的相關規定，也與行使審判權的法院保持組織及職能上的分離，德國也是審檢分立的制度。蔡被提名人沒有擔任過法官，但是您在總統府的被提名人記者會提到，在臺灣，法官比較靜態，檢察官比較動態，所以希望兩個工作未來於一段時間能夠互相交換、接觸，增加視野。看起來，這已經違背釋字第392號所揭示的憲法原則，而且臺灣40年來都是審檢分立，這不僅是憲法的保障，也是國際司法的標準，這樣的言行其實已經引發社會對您可能破壞司法獨立的高度疑慮。是不是可以請您說明一下？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。我在被提名的記者會上確實有講過類似的話，但是我當時的想法是因為我知道現在法官的工作狀態，如同我剛剛講的，算是比較靜態，但是他的工作負荷很重，所以如果他有機會去做不同的工作，事實上，就他的工作或者是他的生活型態來講，是一個調整。以臺灣來講，檢察官轉任法官或者是法官轉任檢察官是實施多年的事實，就是這個有輪調制度，一直以來都有，到目前為止都還有，今年大概有11位檢察官會調到法官來，由法官調去當檢察官的比較少，往年也有……"],["許委員宇甄：對於外界的疑慮，相對於審檢分立，那可能違反這樣的原則，你要怎麼讓司法獨立能夠真正的落實？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想我這個說法沒有違法的疑慮，因為臺灣的審檢分立已經四十幾年，四十幾年來，從來沒有發生過檢察官調來當法官以後，就案件，他就會判有罪，或者是法官去當檢察官以後，他就特別不起訴，從來沒有發生過這種狀況，這是法律所允許的。"],["許委員宇甄：我想應該也沒有一個要擔任司法院院長的被提名人提出這樣的主張，因為不只是交流，而是要互相交換，就是剛剛您講的把檢審互調這樣的狀況，那當然外界就會質疑未來檢審分立制度是不是會嚴重的被破壞，其實大家都有這樣的疑慮。剛剛被提名人提到這樣的方式我想並不足以說明，也並不足以回應外界的質疑，所以針對這個部分您是不是可以再重新考慮一下，是不是還要推動檢審互調，讓司法獨立變成空談呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想檢審互調這個事情，我剛剛講過是事實，現在也在實施中，不會破壞司法獨立，也不會破壞審檢分立，如果我之前簡短講過了一些話，有造成誤會，我要在這裡跟社會大眾道歉，這其實是一個誤解。您剛剛所提到德國的制度來講……"],["許委員宇甄：被提名人剛剛已經道歉了，我想針對這個事情大概也解除了大家的疑慮。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，我想請教您有關您在拉法葉艦軍購弊案當中的辦案經驗，是強調「追回不法所得」的貢獻，我想這個案子對於您追回不法所得的貢獻，大家是可以肯定的，但在拉法葉案中，前檢察總長盧仁發因為聽命陳水扁總統的「動搖國本也要辦到底」的指示，也對當時的北檢檢察長黃世銘施壓要求起訴，而黃世銘因為不從被調職，您接手後立刻羈押、起訴了雷學明等5人，而且還在辯論法庭說：判無罪，不符合一般的期待，判有罪，汪傳浦在國外的錢才能匯回來。這樣的話是一個檢察官該講的話嗎？這是不是已經背離無罪推定的原則呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這有三個問題，我一一回答，第一個問題就是起訴雷學明等的這個案件，事實上這個案子是90年7月5號在北檢起訴，那時候其實我人在板橋地檢，也就是說我是90年11月才從板橋地檢的主任檢察官調任臺北地檢檢察官，所以這個案件起訴的時候其實我人不在北檢，事實上是一個誤會，很大的誤會，這個是第一個，那時候我人在……"],["許委員宇甄：如果是一個誤會的話，媒體報導多年，為什麼都沒有看到您在媒體上澄清您並沒有這樣的說法或狀況？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個部分可能是一個無心之過，有法學前輩這樣指正，因為他跟這個案子有一些關係，所以他有一些想法和看法，我覺得無可厚非，但是事實上這個案子不是我起訴的……"],["許委員宇甄：但是為什麼您不出來說明真相呢？如果照您說的，當時並不是你，所以這個案子是跟你無關嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：不是跟我無關，因為我後來調到北檢以後，這個案子我就有參與公訴、參與蒞庭，就是我也參加公訴活動，最後在辯論的時候我到底有沒有講過剛剛委員所提過的這兩句話，我不復記憶，因為這是二十幾年前的事情，這是民國90年。但是從一個論告的檢察官來講，講這兩句話我覺得並沒有什麼過分的地方，這是一個檢察官的主張，因為這是辯論，這是argument。"],["許委員宇甄：但是這已經違反了無罪推定……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：沒有，無罪推定的部分我來講一下……"],["許委員宇甄：而且當時你是在證據不足的狀況之下起訴了這5位軍官，而後來也因為沒有辦法得到任何的證據顯示這5位軍官跟他的家人是不是真的有收到相關的匯款或是不法的利益，所以最後他們是不是無罪？是吧？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：無罪推定的問題我再跟委員解釋一下，無罪推定確實是我國刑事訴訟法的規定，就是被告在判決有罪確定之前，都是推定為無罪。檢察官起訴並不表示他就有罪，因為是無罪推定嘛！"],["許委員宇甄：對。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：直到法官判決有罪，這個時候無罪推定才消失，如果他被判決無罪，那不是符合無罪推定嗎？因為本來就推定無罪。所以被檢察官起訴的案件，有的被判無罪，有的被判有罪……"],["許委員宇甄：請問當年你在沒有證據的狀況下起訴這5位軍官的理由是什麼？是因為收到上級的指示必須要做，還是你有任何的證據？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然不是！當然不是！我去蒞庭的時候，我們已經從瑞士拿回來將近1萬頁銀行資料的證據，換句話說，我們已經確定這個案子法方確實付了5億2,000萬美金的佣金到汪傳浦、其家人及公司的瑞士帳戶，事實上這個有付佣金已經有出來了……"],["許委員宇甄：那跟雷學明這5位有什麼關係？當時你們並沒有真正的證據……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然有關係啊！"],["許委員宇甄：請問，有什麼樣的證據嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：以當時我們的判斷……"],["許委員宇甄：否則當時的受命法官洪英花也不會在判決書直斥檢察官「表態搶功」，他講這樣的話其實是很重喔！「表態搶功」是什麼意思？要跟誰搶功？就是由上面搶功嘛。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個我沒有評論，法官怎麼判斷、審判怎麼講，我沒有評論。"],["許委員宇甄：所以後來這個案件事實上就是無罪。尤其賴清德總統在94年擔任立委的時候，也公開指責雷學明等人收賄2,000萬美元，但雷學明等人最終獲判無罪確定，證明當年的指控沒有事實根據，而您作為主責檢察官奉命起訴，後來這些人被證明是清白的，現在賴總統又提名您擔任司法院院長，是不是形同對這些被害人再補一刀？尤其他們當年歷經多年纏訴、長期羈押，甚至有人還在案件中含冤而死，針對這5位受害者，請問您有任何的道歉之意嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個案件的事情，剛剛王委員也講了一些，事實上很難評斷，因為有些案件法官判無罪，檢察官會上訴，上訴以後判有罪也有可能。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在只針對這個案子。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對這個案子，我想會有公評。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個案子，對這個無辜、纏訟多年的案子，您是不是要跟他們道歉？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對這個案子，我覺得我不方便在這邊表示我個人的意見，因為這個案件已經判決確定，就是已經判決確定。"],["許委員宇甄：當年你們沒有任何證據之下起訴，最後他們獲判無罪，您覺得是不是應該對這些被害人道歉？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我覺得這邊可能不方便這樣講，因為一個案子其實非常非常……特別是這個案子是國際貪瀆的案件、洗錢的案件，其實非常非常地複雜，不是我在這邊能夠講得清楚的。"],["許委員宇甄：被提名人，司法院組織法第五條有規定，大法官需要超出黨派，獨立行使職權，不受任何的干預，所以如果你連回答這個問題的勇氣都沒有的話，我們怎麼能夠相信您未來能夠超出黨派、獨立行使職權呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個不是勇氣的問題，這是一個對個案的理解及個案認知的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：我就是在請教這個案子。針對最後被無罪釋放的這5位被害者，您有沒有道歉之意？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我尊重法院的判決，我尊重法院的判決。"],["許委員宇甄：好，但顯然您沒有這樣的意願嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：因為法院已經判決無罪確定，我尊重法院的判決。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，再請教您，最近發生幾起重大的社會案件，但司法機關處理的模式引發爭論，讓人質疑是不是保政府、不保人民。臺中市豐原5口命案，李姓嫌犯以詐欺、恐嚇、洗錢等罪嫌移送法辦，檢方後來裁定以15萬元交保，交保的理由是沒有串供的問題；可是李姓嫌犯主導王家去地下錢莊借高利貸，明明還有眾多嫌犯尚未到案，怎麼會沒有串供之虞？他交保後還在網路發文幫自己叫屈。這是5條人命，結果15萬交保！而土城家暴的謝姓男子當街殺害妻子及小姨子一案，之前他因涉嫌違反家暴保護令，遭妻子報警，前一天他無保飭回之後，隔天就殺死了妻子及小姨子，而且手法非常兇殘。","從這兩個案子可以看得出來，鄭文燦的案件交保，林秉文交保之後落跑通緝，鍾文智交保之後落跑通緝，許多人在網路反映，重大的社會案件、親民進黨的人都可以交保；反觀來看，做哏圖的人卻必須被羈押禁見，疑似偽造文書的人必須被羈押禁見。我們知道，羈押涉及人權、人身自由，具有高度的強制性與痛苦性，所以非必要不得輕率為之，可是我們現在可以看到部分的檢察官在偵辦案件的時候，都會以羈押作為取供的主要工具，跟過去的屈打成招事實上完全沒有兩樣。","根據2023年3月民間團體公布的司法信心民意調查，有高達84.7%的民眾認為檢察官辦案受政治力影響。您過去也有在政治氛圍下針對證據不足的案件仍起訴無辜者的紀錄，而司法院院長是守護司法正義的最後一道防線，如果未來總統或行政院長對您提出政治性要求的時候，您是不是能夠承諾拒絕配合而堅守司法獨立？請回答。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然，我當然應該維持司法、堅持司法獨立，但是我要再強調一遍，剛剛委員提到的這個案子不是我起訴的，所以不是被判無罪我沒有任何道歉的意思或是相類似的評論。至於委員所提到的這幾個案子，我也跟委員一樣是從報紙上得知一些相關的訊息，我對這幾個案子的了解非常非常有限，所以我真的也是不適合評論。"],["許委員宇甄：你從報紙上看到這樣的報導時，我們身為一般的人民，你會不會非常憤怒？5條人命、15萬交保！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是，非常遺憾，非常非常遺憾。"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個表示目前的司法檢調系統出了很大的問題，這也是令大家非常憤怒的問題。另外，我還要請教您的就是有關廢死的問題，因為我看您在回復國民黨的問卷當中表示，您不支持廢除死刑，是嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["許委員宇甄：您不支持廢除死刑，那您針對憲判字第8號判決的看法是什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：第8號憲判是認為現在的死刑制度不違憲，我支持這一點。"],["許委員宇甄：但是憲判字第8號等同是實質廢死了。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：沒錯，是相當困難，這一點我也有一點意見。"],["許委員宇甄：你說相當困難，我想請教一下，您擔任檢察官近30年，對於合議庭的法官必須一致決才能判死，在您的實務經驗上有沒有過這樣子的案例？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：以我自己的經驗，判死刑基本上都是一致決，並不是因為有這個判決，因為大概……"],["許委員宇甄：憲判字第8號是合議庭就是三審的法官必須要一致決才能判決，依您近30年的檢察官經歷，有沒有過這樣子的例子？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我沒有去統計一審、二審、三審全部判死刑的案件，老實講，在我當檢察官時，曾經有我起訴的案件判死刑過。"],["許委員宇甄：所以有還是沒有？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：有這個……"],["許委員宇甄：有三審都一致決的案件？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我沒有去統計，因為三審通常在……"],["許委員宇甄：是沒有統計還是不敢回答？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：不是不敢回答，確實以我當檢察官來講……"],["許委員宇甄：那是有還是沒有呢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：案子在第一審判有罪以後，大概就不會再去follow了。"],["許委員宇甄：就我的了解，要三審一致決幾乎是難如登天啊！我相信也沒有一個檢察官有遇過這樣的狀況，所以這樣等同是實質廢死。我很高興聽到您說您不支持廢除死刑，可是對於憲判字第8號幾乎等同是實質廢死的這個部分，未來如果您擔任司法院院長，你要怎麼來解決？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個案子已經判決了，那憲法法庭的判決對人民跟機關都是有拘束力的，除非有憲法訴訟法第四十二條規定的這些要件，人民、政府機關都可以聲請重新來審視，如果沒有這種狀況，我想目前是沒有辦法的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以您不支持廢除死刑，這跟80%的民意是一樣的，當然我們對於憲判字第8號其實是非常的遺憾，因為等同是實質廢死，那我想未來如果您做為司法院院長，尊重大多數的民意、尊重八成的民意應該是您要做的事情。","另外，針對賴清德總統的十講，賴總統在第三講談到了憲政，他說五五憲草或中華民國憲法，臺灣並沒有派員參加，而實際上的狀況我相信您很清楚，臺灣有沒有派員參加？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我聽不清楚委員剛剛問的問題，委員是問有沒有什麼？"],["許委員宇甄：我說賴清德總統在第三講的時候有提到憲法的相關問題，其中他提到五五憲草或者是中華民國憲法，臺灣並沒有派員參加，那您知道臺灣到底有沒有派員參加嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：老實講，我不了解這一點，對於政治人物的……"],["許委員宇甄：好，我告訴你，臺灣曾經派出18名省議會、各縣市議員、農漁會、工會代表等參加制憲會議，都是有的，您可以看一下當時的名單，所以賴清德總統就是公然說謊，而且在誤導國人、製造對立。您對賴清德總統的這種行為有何看法？我現在證據告訴你了，有！有18個人參加，您對於賴清德總統這種造謠、製造對立的行為有什麼看法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我沒有辦法確認賴總統是不是明明知道臺灣有派員參加，而說沒有，這點我沒有辦法確認，有可能他不知道這件事情。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你的意思是賴總統自己根本都搞不清楚狀況，就提出這樣的質疑，是這樣的說法嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個我沒有辦法回答你。"],["許委員宇甄：要不然作為一個總統，怎麼會在他要做團結十講的時候，連這個都搞不清楚，就公然造謠、製造對立？如果你連回答的勇氣都沒有的話，你要怎麼擔任司法院院長？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這不是回答勇氣的問題，這是我不知道他的狀況，當時他對此知悉的狀況是怎麼樣……"],["許委員宇甄：當然是回答勇氣的問題啊！賴總統錯了就是錯了，他就是造謠，不是他知不知道，或是他有沒有在事前瞭解，我覺得應該都要非常非常審慎，所以我覺得蔡被提名人應該針對這個問題要好好地瞭解，甚至應該要告訴總統，他這樣錯了。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的詢問，謝謝蔡被提名人的說明。","接下來登記第4位林岱樺委員詢問之後，我們將會休息10分鐘，之後再請王育敏委員詢問。現在請林岱樺委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d581d50fbb382d249d6914535bb497189ef9fef188de1ed20401f8b1bbbc21182005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:34:31 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這種的怎麼可以交報啦"},{"start":245.477,"end":265.655,"text":"這張怎麼可以這樣放他回去啦你會不會有這種評論就你單純只看媒體因為你自己當檢察官嘛你也知道這個檢察官對這一個被告或者是嫌疑人執行這個所謂的強制處分的時候你一定理會嘛然後要法官來這個同意嘛 對不對"},{"start":266.485,"end":295.168,"text":"可是我們外界在外面看新聞啊 看媒體報導啊看過之後說 啊這個這樣這個法官綁一招這樣不通啊這個警察官怎麼請他回去 怎麼可以這樣啊這法官 檢察官 欸我們很多人認為對司法沒有信心啊都是這樣看過之後 街頭巷尾大家評論之後啊 這樣我們這司法這樣不行 像這個這麼可惡的啊怎麼不把他抓起來 還綁他出去弄垃圾"},{"start":296.192,"end":306.472,"text":"你以後當司法院院長 我把它切成兩塊一個是你現在還沒當司法院院長一個是以後你是一個司法院院長你的態度會是什麼"},{"start":308.702,"end":331.771,"text":"我想我態度,因為我自己做過司法工作做了三十幾年,可能跟完全沒有接觸司法的一些朋友可能對案件的看法、觀點可能比較不一樣,我比較傾向不會立即做判斷,當然在同事之間幾乎沒有這樣子的討論。"},{"start":333.552,"end":361.332,"text":"因為他們都是法律人他們很了解就是要就像剛如同剛委員講的對一個案子你除非你有親身常辦過了解這細節了解案件的來龍去脈不然外人其實沒有接觸的很難評論好那你接下來當司法院院長請你可不可以跟大家講一下醫療啦我們這司法的案件"},{"start":362.915,"end":392.242,"text":"任何一個案子 我講任何一個案子你又不會去問這個法官 問這個個庭都案子社會關注 司法認定不公一個案辦這麼多年 你們可不可以辦得更快你會不會 你當一個司法院院長這是行政的 總是會看一下大家各個法院現在審理的狀況進度有些拖很久 諸如此類"},{"start":393.171,"end":399.968,"text":"你會不會有這樣的驚喜啦或者是這樣的指導啦或是這樣的提醒啊"},{"start":401.087,"end":426.474,"text":"我想個案在個案上一定不會就是說我不會去找法官特別是懲判的法官跟他講說這個案子要快一點這個案子外面有很多民間有很多反應因為這是在司法在法院體系這是一個很大的禁忌就算是院長或他自己的庭長大概都不會這樣講但是如果就一個整體的"},{"start":428.084,"end":456.43,"text":"司法行政政策那基本上我們會有相關的聽處那我們也許會做討論的時候我們可能會有一些比如說政策性的研討或政策性的討論那但是不會去跟各案的法官去做提示這樣子蠻重要的啦 這個一定要堅守住但是因為在你的報告裡頭你自己也提到嘛 這個人力不足啦"},{"start":457.365,"end":461.609,"text":"人力不足那所以呢你如果說現在性都性很慢"},{"start":462.608,"end":489.815,"text":"要審一年、要審兩年 立法委員有事情立法委員就都做了 還早去做管理 早去做啟動他的案可能都還沒聽見 這種可能 各式各樣的可能都有你看這整體全貌的時候 各地方法院 各高等法院跟你說這樣我們就人不夠 我們一個案抽頭很多案 很多案我們就沒辦法 我們的速度就這麼慢"},{"start":491.397,"end":512.023,"text":"你當司法院的院長 你啦 任委啦 你會下什麼樣的指示我想就是如同我剛剛在口頭報告裡面提到的案件工作太重 它對案件的進行一定會有影響的"},{"start":514.352,"end":539.714,"text":"那特別是我們的行政訴訟制度它並不是採取所謂高度集中審理這樣子的方式它有點像就是有一個日本教授說我們是採取是牙醫式的訴訟程序不是那種外科手術式的方式因為英美法比較像他們要集中審理趕快把這個案件審完那其他案件就會放著"},{"start":540.236,"end":560.347,"text":"那你這個案件這個禮拜審一次下禮拜或者是下個月審一次那可能就比較平均但是問題就是可能會造成每一件案子都會拖比較久但是最重要的問題是我們現在的就案件的量來看我們的人力確實是不足"},{"start":561.227,"end":577.91,"text":"那這個困難度很高啦就是我剛剛有提到說因為有先進建議說要增加他並不是說增加法官的人數而是增加助理跟書記官的人數因為這兩個現在兩方都很欠缺"},{"start":579.63,"end":607.432,"text":"這個前一陣子立法院通過法庭的審理要直播啦直播這你應該也了解因為你如果當司法院的院長這事情就到你頭上了是那有沒有跟同事同仁大家討論過說這如果用直播差不多一年要花多少司法院的行政單位是有維護要聽到金額很龐大因為"},{"start":608.732,"end":625.464,"text":"因為你接下來當司法院長這個搞不好這個搞下去的這個費用可能會吃掉司法院一半以上的以上或者是要增加大概一倍或者將近一倍這樣的一個預算你有什麼看法具體的"},{"start":627.816,"end":652.225,"text":"花費的數字因為我現在是被提名人我現在其實也不方便跟司法院接觸所以也這是一個新的業務因為最近才通過那我們在三個月以後我們會要開始實施那這段時間我們會做一些配套的規劃比如說報告預算包括其他的當然這已經通過了照規則就是要辦"},{"start":657.672,"end":664.874,"text":"你覺得這個事情是正面的還是說因為我們常常說什麼司法不公、黑箱什麼的全部都在做直播啦,看你整天都在說什麼啦這樣子對"},{"start":684.295,"end":696.794,"text":"你以前做監察官,你現在也算監察官,你監察官的立場,我們先說監察官的立場就是說直播出去,有了直播出去,他們在問案的時候,你就要穩良公正這樣,不然你告訴人家說"},{"start":699.869,"end":712.738,"text":"欸 你上次我在徵訊你的時候 你明明就這樣講 筆錄都有你現在在法官前面 竟然這樣講欸 這句話我如果說得這麼難齁這直播出去 我可能說 啊 法 檢察官你態度好一點講話要這麼兇嗎 你在大聲什麼 這樣可是這有可能是 法庭裡面的常態嘛那今天在說要被那個被告激怒呢我們都說好了 你都簽 你也已經在徵訊筆錄 你都簽到書 都在都簽啊"},{"start":726.923,"end":754.019,"text":"他在法官頭前 反靠近啊這都有可能嘛齁 或者是說法官啊看了說 欸不是啊 被告我看到的卷證這個都有啊 而且檢察官徵詢你都有啊啊你現在怎麼在改欸欸 要告人在直播出去法官你在講什麼東西啊你講話可以態度好一點嗎你講話只能小聲一點嗎你這樣會嚇到我的我的當事人欸 哇這樣欸你認為醫療這事情怎麼發展啊"},{"start":756.588,"end":784.026,"text":"事實上我現在沒辦法預測但是這個法案已經通過所以必須要進行 必須要有決定因為台灣是一個法治國家但是兩方面就是說在這方面 政策改端其實是不公開的經濟改端是不能進步的現在可以進步的部分是審判 或者審議跟涉事審的部分涉事審判的職種是不公開的"},{"start":786.668,"end":800.801,"text":"以公開的部分是建築辯論的部分,所以我想這個部分處理起來比較不正常意識,像你可能麻煩,但是同樣有很多人很擔憂,很多人非常憂心,這開始有很多問題的發生。"},{"start":805.205,"end":834.643,"text":"都很擔憂啦 其他民眾擔不擔憂而已啦連國民黨自己也擔憂啦他們為了自己的案子 說啊不要啦 不要公開審判連公開審判都不要 還要直播所以這個部分可能喔未來啦 你如果做司法院的院長啊包括我們這裡的法官啊我想這也不知道要怎麼做心理建設因為這個算是 以前法官高高在上嘛坐在上面 像我們院長坐在上面我們這個董事長都坐在上面嘛"},{"start":835.815,"end":863.38,"text":"以後法官問問題要像韓院長一樣講話文文如也也不能夠生氣就是單純因為我在看憲法法庭的時候我看每一個大法官法庭都這樣文文如也問問題可是實質上法院的審理應該沒這麼溫柔有時候因為你遇到被告很惡劣的時候當下也會輸人生氣"},{"start":866.12,"end":886.417,"text":"所以這一塊可能接下來你當司法院的院長看大家討論一下怎麼樣讓我們的司法人員法官要審理的時候怎麼樣避免在這種直播的過程當中心理受創因為我知道很多法官檢察官下班後"},{"start":888.67,"end":909.84,"text":"很多都是這樣,因為他換下他的工作服,有時候就一件襯衫就要回家所以這一塊有可能在直播出去以後,像最近他們的抄話長了一段一段法官檢察官的橡皮站出來"},{"start":910.755,"end":933.282,"text":"阿公用一些血跡 恐嚇一個異位敵人對法官、檢察官影響都很大所以接下來直播下去之後這一塊可能司法院要對這件事情看要怎麼樣的因應因為你接掌司法院院長之後這一題就是你的問題了是 謝謝委員提醒好 接下來"},{"start":934.4,"end":954.996,"text":"你認為國內的政黨 大家靜頓 靜頓在競爭最近也有政黨去解散 去跟憲法法庭去解散主要是跟憲法法庭去解散你對這種解散政黨 你會看什麼"},{"start":958.474,"end":985.045,"text":"這案件我記得應該是在細數中的案件吧不知道是不是細數中的案件那如果是細數中的案件就是說他受理以後細數中的案件我確實比較不好在這裡就這個案子發表你這樣回答就對了 我很怕你再給我回答這個個案不可以回答因為你不知道你再回答 你會說不對"},{"start":986.357,"end":1013.974,"text":"說不定這問題大家都知道會被標題你說這個進行中的案子你沒有完整的資訊沒辦法回答但是憲法法庭解散政黨這個事情你總可以評論憲法法庭解散政黨不管這個政黨的理念是什麼很多人說哎呀你這個憲法法庭大法官怎麼可以把人家的政黨給解散"},{"start":1015.795,"end":1039.711,"text":"這個事情你的看法這個案件是憲法訴訟法規定的受理案件之一那至於到底要怎麼審理我想要看這個政黨他的作為他過去的一些主張還有沒有什麼實際的行動對於民主憲政或對國家"},{"start":1042.392,"end":1069.103,"text":"有危害那如果有這些情況有可能被宣告違憲解散那如果沒有這種情況那就不會被解散我想就會被駁回好最後再問一個課題就是關於這個通訊投票不在籍投票的題目那這些當然有可能被設定到部分的族群"},{"start":1070.1,"end":1099.369,"text":"也許是部分的工作部分的族群部分就是說他不是全面性的這個通訊投票啦選舉啦通訊投票不在即投票他可能會被設定因為某些因素所以他被設定某一些族群某一些工作某些什麼什麼什麼這些人可以不在即投票他們可以通訊投票那這個事情啊如果站在這一個你是一個大法官按照憲法的角度"},{"start":1100.565,"end":1129.891,"text":"憲法就是我們每個人選舉、罷免、創制、複決嘛那大家都要平等嘛 對不對大家都要平等 啊有一些人可以通訊投票不再去投票啊如果是說全面開放啦 我就想我大頭狠 我就說我就要去綠島投票啦 你就給我 我的票可以去綠島就對了我就要去那裡投票 因為投票那天我要去綠島一投啦所以我就去那裡投票就好如果去特定啦 特定的設定了部分的身份部分的族群"},{"start":1131.114,"end":1146.276,"text":"這樣在這個憲法上,你的認定,我們大家都一樣,可是有一些人因為新聞,所以他被設定,他可以進行這樣的一個跟別人不一樣的權利,或者主張,這件事情你有什麼看法?"},{"start":1148.675,"end":1176.474,"text":"理論上來講我想人民都有投票權但是並沒有指定在特定地區投票這樣的權利了那當然這個議題應該是中選會去考量那有可能這種案子會到現在法庭來所以呢我現在我也比較不方便去提說這種這種主張到底是做法到底是違憲還是不違憲"},{"start":1178.255,"end":1201.856,"text":"那基本上法律有給一般人民這樣的就是在一定的地點投票的權利也已經有給他這個權利但是是不是一定要在特定地區投票這樣的權利這是不是憲法保障的權利我想這會有一點討論的空間好 這個就是持久再討論好 那這個謝謝你今天參加我們的審查會"},{"start":1205.646,"end":1216.792,"text":"也祝你這一個審查的最後投票結果能夠過關謝謝 謝委員好 謝謝王一川委員詢問也謝謝我們蔡備提名人說明"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時34分）院長，請蔡被提名人，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請蔡被提名人，請。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：王委員好。"],["王委員義川：好！歡迎你到立法院來參與這次的審查會。剛剛委員的詢問，你表現得還不錯。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝。"],["王委員義川：該回答就回答，因為很多在這裡審查其實是要羞辱你的，還好你沒有動怒，表現得很好。第二個，因為你接下來要當司法院的院長，以後憲法法庭很多會議也要你來主持。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["王委員義川：所以我是建議你，接下來包括很多委員的詢答，針對很多的個案，個案不用進行評論，因為我們知道憲法法庭，即使憲法法庭在開會，也要有公開說明會，也要有言詞辯論，那些都算是滿冗長的程序，兩造都必須陳述自己的意見，然後大法官一一來詢問他們的質疑，所以用這麼短暫的時間，請你針對個案來表態，這並不適合，因為如果你針對個案來表態，那就有失一個大法官、有失一個司法院院長的高度，建議你要小心。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝。"],["王委員義川：因為以後你當司法院院長，總不能你在司法院上班的時候，一堆媒體擋在司法院的門口，問你：院長，上個禮拜有一個案子、昨天有一個案子這樣、這樣，你有什麼看法？你還侃侃而談，這就不對了，因為你自己當檢察官，每一個個案複雜的程序，只有偵查中跟審判進行中的人，這些相關的司法人員才知道全貌，所以針對這些個別的個案，我是建議你，因為今天的審查，我們立法院牛鬼蛇神、神仙龍虎豹、虎龍豹彪，專業的跟不專業的都有啦，你要謹守一個司法人員的原則，盡可能的不要去評論到個案。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝。"],["王委員義川：因為很多個案可能也不是你理解的那樣，這是第一個。第二個，請問被提名人平常有在關心新聞、網路這些社會關注的案件，看完這些案件，你通常會跟你的同事討論、跟家人討論、跟朋友討論，譬如有國中生殺死他的家人，也有這種詐騙被騙得很慘的，也有說他精神喪失心神耗弱，這些人殺了他們的家人，罪該萬死。你在還沒做被提名人之前，你遇到這些案子啊，你通常會怎麼討論你的說法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我很少，幾乎沒有跟同事討論案件，就是跟司法案件有關的報導，如果是在家裡看電視的時候，可能跟太太一起看，可能會聊一下，就這樣。"],["王委員義川：好，你會不由自主的說：哎呀，這種的判太輕啦，這種的怎麼可以交保啦，這種的怎麼可以就這樣放他回去啦！你會不會有這種評論？就你單純只看媒體，因為你自己當檢察官，你也知道檢察官對被告或者是嫌疑人執行所謂的強制處分時，一定有理由的，然後要法官同意，對不對？可是我們外界在外面看，看新聞、看媒體報導，看一看之後說這個這樣，法官放他走，這樣不行！這個檢察官怎麼請他回去，怎麼可以這樣啊！我們很多認為對司法沒有信心，都是這樣看了以後，街頭巷尾大家評論之後說我們司法這樣不行，像這麼可惡的，怎麼不把他抓起來，還放他出去到處跑。你以後當司法院院長，我把它切成兩塊，一個是你現在還沒當司法院院長，一個是以後你就是一個司法院院長，你的態度會是什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想我的態度，因為我自己做過司法工作做了三十幾年了，可能跟完全沒有接觸司法的一些朋友，對於案件的看法、觀點可能比較不一樣，我比較傾向不會立即作判斷，當然在同事之間也幾乎沒有這樣的討論，因為他們都是法律人，他們很了解，就如同委員剛剛講的，對於一個案子，除非你有親身承辦過，了解細節、了解案件的來龍去脈，不然其實沒有接觸的外人是很難評論的。"],["王委員義川：好，如果接下來你當司法院院長，你可不可以跟大家講一下，以後涉及司法的任何一個案子，我講的是任何一個案子，你會不會去問這個法官、問個庭說：很多案子社會關注，司法也認定不公，但一個案子卻辦了這麼多年，你們可不可以辦快一點？司法院院長算是管行政的，總是會看一下各個法院的審理狀況、相關進度是不是拖很久等諸如此類問題，你會不會有這樣的指示、這樣的指導或是這樣的提醒？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：在個案上我一定不會去找法官，特別是承辦的法官，然後跟他說這個案子要辦快一點，或是這個案子外面、民間有很多反映，因為在法院體系這是一個很大的禁忌，就算是院長或庭長，大概都不會這樣講，但是如果針對整體司法行政政策，基本上相關的廳處也許會做討論，比如是政策性的研討或政策性的討論，但不會去跟個案法官做任何提示。"],["王委員義川：好，這個滿重要的，一定要堅守住。其次，你的報告中提到因為人力不足的問題，所以現在審查進度都很慢，甚至有審查一年、兩年的，像有些立法委員發生事情，立法委員任期都做完了，還跑去當縣長、市長，但他的案子可能都還沒有定讞，這都有可能，各式各樣的可能都有，所以你在看整體全貌的時候，各地方法院、各高等法院都跟你說人力不夠，每個人手上都有很多案子，沒辦法，速度就是這麼慢。如果你當司法院院長，你認為速度太慢，你會下什麼樣的指示？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想就如同我剛剛在口頭報告中提到的，案件工作太重，對案件的進行一定會有影響，特別是我們的刑事訴訟制度，並不是採取所謂高度集中審理方式，它有點像一位日本教授所說的，是採取牙醫式的訴訟程序，不是外科手術式的方式，英美法比較像是集中審理，趕快把案子審完，其他案件就會放著；我們的方式是可能這個案件這個禮拜審一次，下禮拜或者下個月再審一次，這樣各案件可能會比較平均，但問題就是會造成每件案子都會拖比較久，但是最重要的問題是，就現在的案件量來看，我們的人力確實不足，這個困難度很高，就像我剛剛提到的，有先進建議要增加人力，但他並不是建議增加法官人數，而是增加助理跟書記官人數，因為這兩個部分現在都很欠缺。"],["王委員義川：好，前一陣子立法院通過法庭的審理要直播，這個你應該也了解，如果你當司法院院長，事情就到你頭上了，有沒有跟同事、同仁大家討論過，如果採用直播方式，一年差不多要花多少經費？司法院的行政單位是有回復，聽起來金額很龐大，因為你接下來要當司法院院長，搞不好這個搞下去，可能會吃掉司法院一半以上的預算，或者是要增加大概一倍或將近一倍的預算，對此你有什麼看法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：具體的花費數字，因為我現在是被提名人，現在其實也不方便跟司法院接觸，這也是一個新的業務，因為最近才通過，那我們在三個月以後，我們要開始實施，那這段時間我們會做一些配套的規劃，比如說包括預算、包括其他要處理的……"],["王委員義川：當然這已經通過了，照規矩你們就要辦。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員義川：辦這個對法官、對檢察官、對律師、對被告、對證人，你覺得這個事情是正面的，還是說……因為我們常常說司法不公、黑箱，所以就全部都給它直播，看你們整群都在說什麼，這樣子對……你以前當檢察官，你現在也算檢察官，你以檢察官的立場，我們先說檢察官的立場，就是說直播出去，可能在問案的時候，你們就要溫良恭儉讓了，不然你到時候說：「上次我在偵訊你的時候，你明明就這樣講，筆錄都有，你現在在法官前面竟然這樣講！」這句話我如果說得這麼兇，直播出去以後，可能會被說檢察官你態度好一點，講話要這麼兇嗎？你在大聲什麼？可是這有可能是法庭裡面的常態，檢察官被那個被告激怒了，本來都說好了，你也已經簽了偵訊筆錄，律師也都在場，也都簽了，結果到法官前面還翻供，這都有可能嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員義川：或者是法官說：「不是啊！被告，我看到的卷證這個都有啊！而且檢察官偵訊你都有啊！你現在怎麼再改？」到時候直播出去，被說法官你在講什麼東西啊！你講話可以態度好一點嗎？你講話可以小聲一點嗎？你這樣會嚇到我的當事人耶！這樣的話，你認為以後這個事情會怎麼發展？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：事情會怎麼發展我現在沒辦法預測，但是這個法律已經通過了，所以就必須要進行，因為臺灣是一個法治國家，但是有兩方面就是說，在檢察官方面，偵查階段其實是不公開的，是不能直播的。"],["王委員義川：沒錯，對。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：現在可以直播的部分是審判，法律審跟事實審的部分，事實審原則上它是不公開的，公開的部分是言詞辯論的部分，所以我想這個部分處理起來是比較沒有像之前預測的那麼麻煩，但是同樣有很多人非常擔憂，也非常憂心，這確實有很多問題會發生。"],["王委員義川：都很擔憂啦！只有民眾黨不擔憂而已啦！連國民黨自己也擔憂啦！有一些他們自己的案子，也說不要公開審判，連公開審判都不要了，還要直播嗎？所以這個部分可能……未來你如果當司法院的院長，包括我們這些法官，我也不知道這要怎麼做心理建設，因為以前法官高高在上嘛！都坐在上面，就像我們的院長坐在上面，我們這些當事人都坐兩邊，以後法官問問題，要像我們韓院長一樣講話溫文儒雅，也不能夠生氣，因為我在看憲法法庭的時候，我看每一個大法官都穿著法袍溫文儒雅問問題。可是實質上的法院審理，應該沒有這麼溫柔啦！因為你遇到被告很惡劣的時候，有時候也會使人生氣，所以這一塊可能接下來你當司法院的院長，大家要討論一下，看怎麼樣讓我們的司法人員、法官以後審理的時候，避免在這種直播的過程當中心理受創。","因為我知道很多法官、檢察官下班以後跟一般的人都一樣，坐捷運、騎腳踏車都有啦！很多都是這樣，因為他換下他的工作服後，有時候就是穿一件襯衫回家，所以這一塊，有可能直播出去以後，像最近「草仔」和「蔥仔」把一些法官、檢察官的相片拿出來，還用了一些血跡，有一點在恐嚇別人的意味，對法官、檢察官影響都很大。所以接下來直播出去之後，司法院要對這件事情看要怎麼去因應，因為你接掌司法院院長之後，這一題就是你的問題了。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["王委員義川：接下來，你認為國內的政黨從事政治競爭，最近也有政黨被解散，亦即在憲法法庭被解散，主要是因為跟憲法有關係才會送到憲法法庭被解散，你對這種解散政黨有什麼看法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個案子據我所知應該是在繫屬中的案件吧，不知道是不是繫屬中的案件？如果是被受理以後繫屬中的案件，我確實是比較不好在這裡就這個案子發表……"],["王委員義川：你這樣回答就對了，我很怕你回答我，這是個案不能回答，因為如果你不清楚又回答了，你會講錯，講錯了，各家媒體都在就會變成標題，所以你要說這是進行中的案子，你沒有完整的資訊沒有辦法回答，但是憲法法庭解散政黨的這件事情，你總可以評論吧！不管這個政黨的理念是什麼，很多人都會說，你這個憲法法庭、大法官怎麼可以把人家的政黨給解散呢？你對這件事情的看法是什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個案件是憲法訴訟法規定所受理的案件之一，至於到底要怎麼審理，我想就要看這個政黨的作為、它過去的主張，還有沒有什麼實際的行動對民主憲政或對國家有危害，如果有這些情況就有可能被宣告違憲解散；如果沒有這種情況，就不會被解散而被駁回。"],["王委員義川：好。最後再問一個課題，也就是關於通訊投票、不在籍投票的題目。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員義川：這些當然有可能被設定到部分的族群，也許是部分的工作，也就是說它不是全面性的。選舉的時候採用通訊投票、不在籍投票，可能會因為某些因素而被設定某一些族群、某一些工作或某一些什麼，這些人可以不在籍投票，他們可以通訊投票。你是一個大法官，對於這個事情按照憲法的角度來看，憲法讓我們每個人擁有選舉、罷免、創制、複決的權利，大家都要平等對不對？但有一些人可以通訊投票、不在籍投票，如果可以全面開放的話，像我住桃園，但我想去綠島投票，你把我的票改去綠島就對了，我就是想去那裡投票，因為投票那天我要去綠島玩，所以我去那裡投票就好。如果特別設定了部分的身分、部分的族群，這樣在憲法上你的認定是什麼？因為大家都要一樣，可是有一些人因為他的身分如何，所以被設定成可以進行這樣的一個跟別人不一樣的權利或主張，對於這件事情你有什麼看法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：理論上來講，我想人民都有投票權，但是並沒有指定在特定地區投票這樣的權利。當然這個議題應該是中選會須考量的，這種案子有可能會送到憲法法庭來，所以我現在也比較不方便去提這種主張或作法到底是違憲還是不違憲。基本上，法律有給一般人民在一定地點投票的權利，是已經有給予這樣的權利了，但是不是有給一定要在特定地區投票的權利？這是不是憲法保障的權利？我想這是有一點討論的空間。"],["王委員義川：這個就是直球在討論。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝你今天參加我們的審查會，也祝你審查到最後的投票結果能夠過關。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["王委員義川：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員的詢問，也謝謝蔡被提名人的說明。","接下來請登記第3位許宇甄委員詢問，林岱樺委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"163029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d58bb268b5534ea77d3914535bb497189ef9fef188de1ed2040555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:12:30 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另外才要嘛有必要才要嘛那你知不知道去年最高法院在民事案件喔原則上因行延遲辯論啊 行了幾件延遲辯論來我直接秀給你看啊"},{"start":261.825,"end":286.887,"text":"離譜的不得了啊最高法院上訴第三審的案件2003年我國為了建立金字塔型的訴訟制度上訴最高法院的案件依照民事訴訟法474條的規定應行延遲辯論但不必要則不在此件結果展現出來的是什麼民事上訴的案件一般的案件行延遲辯論的五件五件"},{"start":288.311,"end":317.173,"text":"現在有個最基礎的問題來啦法官需不需要遵守法律 需要嗎當然還是法官可以置外於法律之外反正我是法官誰拿我有批條民事訴訟法474條明文規定第三審上訴因行言之辯論請我們的最高法院把我們的法律當空氣耶一年上訴最高法院的案件行言之辯論五件耶這在開什麼玩笑啊"},{"start":318.424,"end":339.827,"text":"告一個那麼大的最高法院那麼好的法庭還有直播的設備結果一年刑五件延遲辯論蔡備提名人你覺得需不需要痛加檢討這點我們會再來研究蔡備提名人你知道這件事情研究多久了吧你知不知道研究多久了"},{"start":340.725,"end":358.551,"text":"我第一次當立法委員的時候2016年下半年我第一次有機會最高法院的院長到立法院來備詢因為只有預算的時候他們要來嘛我提出了問題啊跟我說回去要檢討檢討了九年啊檢討了九年啊這就是檢討九年的結果啊"},{"start":363.045,"end":381.294,"text":"當法官認為我是最高法院的法官沒有人拿我有任何皮條的時候台灣是什麼法治國家人民要守法法官不要守法這樣對嗎蔡院長你上任司法院院長以後打算怎麼處理這件事"},{"start":383.26,"end":397.51,"text":"民事的部分我比較不熟悉你接下來要當司法院院長啊你不能夠說我只處理刑事的我民事的不管啊我沒有說我只處理刑事的你接下來打算要怎麼處理"},{"start":398.666,"end":425.967,"text":"民事的部分我想應該要先去深入了解這個原因到底為什麼深入了解很久了啦九年我們繼續往下看因為接下來要當憲法法庭的大法官特別要當司法院院長權力分立的原則人權的保障我國憲法的規定基本上就以這兩個為基石我們來看看您所謂的人權觀念跟權力分立啊您的認識啊是什麼"},{"start":429.38,"end":454.091,"text":"邱泰山你以前法務部的老長官嘛你當國兩司的時候就是他當部長把你拉進去的嘛2019年的時候離開法務部當國安諮詢委員可以把桃園地檢署的檢察長叫來叫他指示下面的檢察官要幫一個富商逃稅的案子做認罪協商可以做這種事嗎 來請教"},{"start":457.783,"end":472.406,"text":"這個事情我只從媒體的報導高檢署都有調查報告出來啦我現在只問你一般的抽象法律原則嘛為高權重當過法務部部長的人可以幹這件事嗎還是之前的老長官你不方便講做這種事情的人應不應該負法律責任來請教法律責任我不敢說就是要看實際的"},{"start":484.678,"end":506.825,"text":"實際的狀況就是他找彭坤彥來啊 關說司法啊叫他幫富商 辦認罪協商啊彭坤彥回去就下條子給承辦檢察官 這都是客觀事實啊如果您不了解的話 高檢署的調查報告都出來了啊而且 那個時候立法院在追這件事情的時候 我第一任當立委你那時候也在法務部任職啊"},{"start":508.257,"end":534.226,"text":"但是我沒有看過這份報告我大概了解跟是從你連這件事情表示立場的勇氣都沒有連這個表示立場的勇氣都沒有這樣人民要如何期待你抗拒政治的壓力做好司法獨立審判我想要表示一個立場要先對事實有一定的了解那我接下來問你一定很清楚的謝謝"},{"start":535.61,"end":545.702,"text":"2019年2月香港政府宣布要提出逃犯條例的修法你還記不記得你那時候的回應是什麼"},{"start":547.96,"end":575.64,"text":"好像我曾經講過樂見其成樂見其成嘛你今天還覺得樂見其成嗎今天我覺得這個情勢的結果是當初所沒有預料到的2019年2月你說你沒有預料到來我們來看一看你的態度是怎麼轉變的香港提逃犯條例的修法你當初說樂見其成結果香港民運的領袖黃之鋒說什麼痛批你啊"},{"start":576.744,"end":583.942,"text":"對你的說法百思不得其解啊為什麼會樂見其成你知不知道你的態度什麼時候轉變的你還記得嗎"},{"start":587.067,"end":611.465,"text":"是後來發現 就是因為對香港的政治情勢其實我們當時不是太了解政治的情勢很奇怪耶當初二月的時候 三月的時候整個香港民運人士都起來抗議了啊逃犯條例的法條也公佈了啊你作為我國國兩司的司長對於他們要搞的逃犯條例你樂見其成被黃之鋒出來痛批"},{"start":612.861,"end":634.811,"text":"你回去有反省嗎我們確實不了解香港的政治體制三月他不就公布了嗎是公布是公布那因為我們之前跟香港一直沒有進行司法互助的經驗那我們來我告訴你啦有沒有經驗喔根本不是重點為什麼不是重點我告訴你你什麼時候態度轉變的"},{"start":636.391,"end":660.437,"text":"你態度轉變啊一直到五月還在發新聞稿說樂建跟香港合作什麼時候轉變的來我給你看六月的時候蔡英文發文譴責賴清德痛批結果民進黨兩個位高權重的人出來痛批了以後馬上轉向國兩司六月十四號發聲明譴責大轉彎"},{"start":666.564,"end":683.537,"text":"在這個整個歷程看下來我基本上覺得您對於這件事情沒有中心的理念完全沒有中心的理念就是看上億辦事啊等到上面的人講話了才趕快迎合上億發聲明稿 是不是這樣"},{"start":687.461,"end":714.447,"text":"這個聲明稿我怎麼發的 我現在記不太清楚你也不記得啦 沒關係啦 你回去好好看看啦我說話我一定負責啊整個歷程我整理得非常的清楚啊社會大眾也可以檢驗看我今天站在這邊啊 所提出來的批判到底合理還是不合理啊來 下一個問題我們跟多少國家簽引渡條約你國兩司司長應該很清楚嘛引渡條約很少很少是幾個"},{"start":716.258,"end":742.27,"text":"應該是個位數啦我現在沒有具體的數十一個國家啦十一個國家奇怪法務部的官這麼好當喔這麼基本的事實問題過去這十年沒有增加任何新的國家過去這十年沒有增加任何新的國家這不是你主管的法律嗎再往下看立法委員修法提高老農津貼有沒有文獻"},{"start":747.96,"end":773.229,"text":"過去老農沒有津貼嘛我四千塊給他提升到六千元嘛照顧我們辛苦的農民嘛立法委員提案修法增加老農津貼有沒有違憲基本我認為是沒有違憲基本上認為沒有違憲那就很奇怪啦為什麼說很奇怪我問卷發給你啊結果你附和九龍派的說法說法律案增加政府支出違憲"},{"start":775.418,"end":786.773,"text":"你還記得你寫的答案嗎我看了你寫的答案我非常驚訝我驚訝到說你的答案怎麼跟卓榮泰的聲明長的87%像"},{"start":789.855,"end":805.981,"text":"你基本上就符合卓榮泰的說法啊你今天又在這邊跟我講立法委員修法增加老農今天沒有違憲那我再請教你立法委員修法增加對於原住民的進法補償金額從每公頃三萬元提高到五萬元有沒有違憲"},{"start":809.249,"end":831.74,"text":"基本上我認為沒有違憲基本上你認為沒有違憲 非常好 記得你今天的答案回去啊 再好好看看你給我們黨團的回覆怎麼會跟你今天在這邊的答覆啊 差這麼多時間的關係我要一直往下走啊只有20分鐘 問題非常的多啊再來 賴清德在所謂的團結實講中 他說"},{"start":834.551,"end":863.261,"text":"他自己當立法委員12年沒有看過立法院通過一個法律被判決違憲痛批啊這個是在台灣史無前例啊贊不贊成賴清德這樣的說法我不是聽得很清楚就是之前的沒有被宣告違憲還是現在不是啊我問你啊提名你的應該是賴清德總統啊你有跟他見過面嗎見過一次面對啊他講的這個話很重欸"},{"start":865.175,"end":883.315,"text":"總統指責我們立法院欸所以他自己當立法委員12年沒有看過這麼離譜的立法院通過法律被宣告違憲所以我才請教你 贊不贊成賴清德這樣的說法嗎還是你已經過著隱世獨居的生活外面社會發生什麼事情你都不知道"},{"start":884.617,"end":911.922,"text":"是有點這樣子是這樣很危險耶這是賴總統自己的觀察我想是他你這樣不贊成我沒有辦法表示贊成沒關係啊但是你接下來就要表示意見來看一下立法院職權刑事法15條之二我沒有要你背啦我不會像考小學生一樣考你這樣對你不尊敬我把法條都列出來了這個條文有沒有違憲"},{"start":917.895,"end":927.765,"text":"立法院得經全體立法委員四分之一提議院會決議由程序委員會排定議程就國家安全大政方針聽取總統國情報告來請問15條之二這個條文有沒有違憲這個條文的比較文字比較微妙因為跟憲法的規定有一點點"},{"start":940.141,"end":952.47,"text":"沒有關係啦 因為你接下來要當憲法法庭的法官嘛這個不是Pending當中的案件Pending當中的案件我問你 也不適當嘛這個是終結的案件嘛所以我問你這個條文有沒有違憲那個主席的時間可不可以停下來因為我每次問他就禁止停格然後時間都跑我的 這樣不好吧"},{"start":967.928,"end":972.591,"text":"時間暫停一下跟委員報告一下目前為止節奏還算順暢好不好OK好來請"},{"start":977.864,"end":1007.359,"text":"我想這個是在文字上有解讀的問題因為從憲法的角度來看他是第二方面得聽取總統的國情報告所以有沒有違憲表面上看起來是沒有違憲表面上看起來沒違憲了你知不知道這個條文被我們憲法法庭宣告違憲了你知道嗎是的我了解你認為沒有違憲我們憲法法庭宣告違憲了我說表面上字面上看起來是嗎你知不知道這個條文什麼時候修的"},{"start":1009.904,"end":1026.209,"text":"修的時間我跟你講啊2008年賴清德當立委的時候修的啊2008年賴清德當立委的時候修的啊我就覺得很奇怪了一個總統忘了自己當立委修過什麼法"},{"start":1027.305,"end":1052.029,"text":"結果自己修的法被立法院被憲法法庭宣告違憲臉皮很厚欸指責現在全體國會議員欸沒有看過你們這麼糟糕的立法委員啊修一個法律被宣告違憲總統這樣子的發言有國家元首的高度嗎還是總統希望挖一個坑給他自己跳下去看我們一般台灣的公民有沒有發現總統這樣的發言有總統的高度嗎"},{"start":1057.705,"end":1080.087,"text":"怎麼會自己修過法律自己都忘了欸高度的問題我不方便評論好來我們再往下看通訊監察法的規定來一樣我給你時間看通訊監察法規定通訊監察書偵查中有檢察官依照司法警察機關申請或依職權核發審判中有法官依職權核發這個條文有沒有違憲"},{"start":1084.771,"end":1112.508,"text":"早期確實是有檢察官可以來就是來申請或者是監聽票啦檢察官發有沒有違憲有還是沒有現在被認為違憲我想這個有現在被認為違憲什麼時候被認為違憲的實際的時間實際的日期我沒有印象很早以前啦十幾年前了2007年快20年了"},{"start":1114.685,"end":1137.098,"text":"當初立這個法的,您知道是誰嗎?我不知道又是賴清德賴清德在當立委的時候說檢察官可以發監聽票後來什麼?4至631號2007年的大法官宣告違憲現在賴清德是在打臉誰?在打臉他自己嗎?在打臉他自己嗎?"},{"start":1138.359,"end":1165.79,"text":"重點是什麼 我們再往下看這都是人權保障非常重要的條款啊國家機器什麼時候可以去監聽法官保留還是檢察官保留這些事情都很重要嘛 對不對來 我們來看一下通保法相關的規定通訊檢查要不要法官保留要法官保留通訊使用者資料調取要不要法官保留要法官保留"},{"start":1166.738,"end":1195.644,"text":"通訊紀錄調取要不要法官保留?這個都是檢察官要很熟的事情啊也要法官保留網路流量紀錄要不要法官保留?這個我不確定好沒關係啊網路流量紀錄啊是我們去年修法可能對你來講這是新的法但是你剛剛的答案啊事實上是錯的為什麼?通訊使用者資料調取不用法官保留法務部向來的立場都是這個樣子啊"},{"start":1196.817,"end":1226.423,"text":"你忘了嗎這很基本耶這非常基本耶好來 再來檢察官傳喚證人作證可以當場要求證人交出手機要求查看手機內的通訊內容嗎可不可以我想這個這個是刑事基本人權啦檢察官可以做這個 是嗎證人的話就比較不適宜就比較不適合 不要講不適合啦"},{"start":1227.774,"end":1237.597,"text":"對平民人,我們都是法律人,不是素人素人才會用形容詞在形容法律人就很清楚,可以這樣做嗎?這樣做嘛,本質上就是搜索嘛人民為什麼對司法還信任?現在的檢察官辦案,有告訴證人你有權拒絕嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":1267.586,"end":1271.75,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員的詢問謝謝蔡備提名人的回答 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":62,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時12分）謝謝院長。麻煩有請蔡被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩蔡被提名人。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：被提名人您好。台灣民眾黨黨團在審查司法院院長及大法官的標準，在上一次大法官同意權行使的過程當中，我們已經表明的非常的清楚。有沒有勇氣對抗當權者？扮演憲法守護者的角色、去維護我國的民主憲政、去貫徹我國的人權保障，我相信這是最基本的要求。不過很遺憾，在您回復給本黨團的問卷內容，我想先請問一下被提名人，那都是你自己寫的嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：也有跟朋友請教的。"],["黃委員國昌：你請教哪些朋友？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：大概都是我的同事。"],["黃委員國昌：我覺得非常詫異！被提名人，你可以回去比對一下，我發現你對很多問題的回答，基本上跟目前當權的民進黨政府所發出來的官方聲明大同小異。我只有20分鐘的時間，如果被提名人有興趣的話，會後我可以一題一題跟你講，為什麼我說你所提供的答案跟民進黨政府所發的官方聲明大同小異。我先針對具體的問題進行詢問，你知道在賴清德上任一年以後，全國人民最不滿意他施政表現的是哪一項？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：據我所知是司法。"],["黃委員國昌：是司法改革嘛！在2017年司法國是會議以後，改了八年，人民最不滿意是司法改革，你覺得政府有沒有必要痛加檢討？有沒有必要？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我覺得有必要檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：有必要檢討。你知不知道納稅人一年給司法院的預算是多少錢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：大概是1%。"],["黃委員國昌：多少錢？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：錢的總數，我沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：你要接任司法院院長欸，現在司法院一年預算要多少錢你不知道？這會不會太離譜啊！這很基本的欸！你要增加司法預算，最起碼要知道現在預算要多少錢、未來還要爭取多少錢，這個不是最基本的嗎？結果你現在連一年預算要多少錢也不知道？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我沒有記總數，但是我知道大概是……"],["黃委員國昌：從2016年、2017年到2025年，我們的司法預算是不是節節上升？是不是？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：我直接跟你講，這很基本的啊！從2017年納稅人給了216億，到今年已經288億了，不斷的在上升，納稅人給司法這樣的支持，但我們的司法滿意度是持續探底，成為賴清德執政人民最不滿意的事項，但你剛剛回答一個問題，最起碼我肯定，需要痛加檢討，但我們看不到政府有任何痛加檢討的決心。我舉一個最簡單的例子，目前最高法院上訴第三審的案件，民事案件要不要行言詞辯論？依法該不該行言詞辯論？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：應該行言詞辯論。"],["黃委員國昌：依法應該要言詞辯論，但現實上有言詞辯論嗎？有嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：民事的部分我比較不了解。"],["黃委員國昌：那刑事的部分你了解嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：刑事的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：原則上不用行言詞辯論，例外才要，有必要才要嘛！那你知不知道去年最高法院在民事案件原則上應行言詞辯論行了幾件言詞辯論？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對不起，我沒有這個資料。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我直接秀給你看啊！離譜得不得了啊！最高法院上訴第三審的案件，2003年我國為了建立金字塔型的訴訟制度，上訴最高法院的案件依照民事訴訟法第四百七十四條的規定，應行言詞辯論，但不必要者不在此限，結果展現出來的是什麼？民事上訴的案件，一般的案件行言詞辯論的5件！現在有個最基礎的問題來了，法官需不需要遵守法律？需要嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：還是法官可以自外於法律之外，反正我是法官，誰拿我有皮條？民事訴訟法第四百七十四條明文規定，第三審上訴應行言詞辯論，結果我們的最高法院把我們的法律當空氣耶！一年上訴最高法院的案件行言詞辯論的5件耶！這在開什麼玩笑啊！蓋一個那麼大的最高法院、那麼好的法庭，還有直播的設備，結果一年行5件言詞辯論。蔡被提名人，你覺得需不需要痛加檢討？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這一點我們會再來研究，看能不能……"],["黃委員國昌：蔡被提名人，你知道這件事情研究多久了嗎？你知不知道研究多久了？我第一次當立法委員的時候，2016年下半年，最高法院院長到立法院來備詢，因為只有預算的時候他們要來，我第一次有機會質詢，我提出了問題，他跟我說回去要檢討，檢討了9年，這就是檢討9年的結果，當法官認為我是最高法院的法官，沒有人有拿我有任何皮條的時候，臺灣是什麼法治國家？人民要守法，法官不要守法，這樣對嗎？蔡院長，你上任司法院院長以後要怎麼處理這件事？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：民事的部分，我比較不熟悉，那我會……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，你接下來要當司法院院長啊！你不能夠說只處理刑事的，民事的不管啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：當然，我沒有說我只處理……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，你接下來打算要怎麼處理？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：民事的部分我想應該要先去深入了解原因到底為什麼。"],["黃委員國昌：深入了解很久了啦！9年。我們繼續往下看，因為接下來要當憲法法庭的大法官，特別要當司法院院長，我國憲法的規定基本上就以權力分立的原則、人權的保障為基石，我們來看看您對所謂的人權觀念跟權力分立的認識是什麼。邱太三，你以前法務部的老長官，你當國兩司司長的時候，就是他當部長把你拉進去的，2019年的時候，離開法務部當國安諮詢委員，可以把桃園地檢署的檢察長叫來，叫他指示下面的檢察官幫一個富商逃稅的案子做認罪協商，可以做這種事嗎？請教！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個事情我只從媒體……"],["黃委員國昌：高檢署都有調查報告出來啦！我現在只問你一般的抽象法律原則，位高權重、當過法務部部長的人可以幹這件事嗎？還是因為是之前的老長官，你不方便講？做這種事情的人應不應該負法律責任？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：法律責任我不敢說，就是要看實際的……"],["黃委員國昌：實際的狀況就是他找彭坤業來啊！關說司法啊！叫他幫富商辦認罪協商，彭坤業回去就下條子給承辦檢察官，這都是客觀事實，如果您不了解的話，高檢署的調查報告都出來了，而且立法院在追這件事情的時候，我是第一任當立委，你那時候也在法務部任職啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是，但是我沒有看過這份報告，我大概了解跟……是從報導……"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情你連表示立場的勇氣都沒有，連表示立場的勇氣都沒有，叫人民要如何期待你抗拒政治的壓力，做好司法獨立審判？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想要表示一個立場，要先對事實有一定的了解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，我接下來問你一定很清楚的。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：2019年2月香港政府宣布要提出逃犯條例的修法，還記不記得你那時候的回應是什麼？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：好像我曾經講過樂見其成。"],["黃委員國昌：樂見其成嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你今天還覺得樂見其成嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：今天我覺得這個情勢的結果是當初所沒有預料到的。"],["黃委員國昌：你說你沒有預料到，我們來看一看你的態度是怎麼轉變的。2019年2月香港提逃犯條例的修法，你當初說樂見其成，結果香港民運的領袖黃之鋒痛批你，對你的說法百思不得其解。為什麼會樂見其成？你知不知道你的態度什麼時候轉變的，你還記得嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是後來發現，就是因為對香港的政治情勢，其實我們當時不是太了解。"],["黃委員國昌：政治的情勢？很奇怪欸，當初2月的時候、3月的時候，整個香港民運人士都起來抗議了，逃犯條例的法條也公布了，你作為我國國際及兩岸法律司的司長，對於他們要搞的逃犯條例你樂見其成，被黃之鋒出來痛批，你回去有反省嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我們確實不了解香港的政治情勢。"],["黃委員國昌：3月不就公布了嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：公布是公布，因為我們之前跟香港一直沒有進行司法互助的經驗，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有經驗根本不是重點，為什麼不是重點？我告訴你，你什麼時候態度轉變的。你一直到5月還在發新聞稿說樂見跟香港合作，我給你看是什麼時候轉變的，6月的時候，蔡英文發文譴責、賴清德痛批，結果民進黨兩個位高權重的人出來痛批了以後，馬上轉向，國兩司6月14日發聲明譴責，大轉彎哪！整個歷程看下來，我基本上覺得您對於這件事情沒有中心的理念，完全沒有中心的理念，就是看上意辦事，等到上面的人講話了，才趕快迎合上意發聲明稿，是不是這樣？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個聲明稿怎麼發的，我現在也記不太清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不記得，沒關係，你回去好好看，我說話一定負責，整個歷程我整理得非常清楚，社會大眾也可以檢驗我今天站在這邊所提出來的批判，到底合理還是不合理。","下一個問題，我們跟多少國家簽引渡條約？你是國兩司司長應該很清楚。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：引渡條約很少。"],["黃委員國昌：很少是幾個？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：應該是個位數，我現在沒有具體的……"],["黃委員國昌：11個國家。奇怪，法務部的官這麼好當喔？","這麼基本的事實問題，過去這10年沒有增加任何新的國家，這不是你主管的法律嗎？再往下看。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：立法委員修法提高老農津貼有沒有違憲？過去老農沒有津貼，我從4,000塊給他提升到6,000元，照顧我們辛苦的農民嘛！立法委員提案修法增加老農津貼，有沒有違憲？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：基本我認為是沒有違憲。"],["黃委員國昌：基本上認為沒有違憲。那就很奇怪了，我為什麼說很奇怪？我問卷發給你啊！結果你附和卓榮泰的說法，說法律案增加政府支出違憲耶！你還記得你寫的答案嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對於特別預算這個……"],["黃委員國昌：我看了你寫的答案，我非常驚訝，我驚訝到說你的答案怎麼跟卓榮泰的聲明長得87%像？你基本上就附合卓榮泰的說法，而你今天又在這邊跟我講，立法委員修法增加老農津貼沒有違憲！那我再請教你，立法委員修法增加對原住民的禁伐補償金額，從每公頃3萬元提高到5萬元，有沒有違憲？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：基本上我認為沒有違憲。"],["黃委員國昌：基本上你認為沒有違憲，非常好！記得你今天的答案，回去再好好看看你給我們黨團的回復，怎麼會跟你今天在這邊的答復差這麼多？時間的關係，我要一直往下走，只有20分鐘，問題非常多。","再來，賴清德在所謂的團結十講中，他說他自己當立法委員12年，沒有看過立法院通過一個法律被判決違憲，痛批這個在臺灣是史無前例。你贊不贊成賴清德這樣的說法？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我不是聽得很清楚，就是之前的沒有被宣告違憲，還是現在的……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，我問你，提名你的應該是賴清德總統嘛？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你有跟他見過面嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：見過一次面。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！他講了這個話很重耶！總統指著我們立法院耶！說他自己當立法委員12年，沒有看過這麼離譜的立法院，通過法律被宣告違憲。所以我才請教你，贊不贊成賴清德這樣的說法？還是你已經過著隱士獨居的生活，外面社會發生什麼事情你都不知道？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是有點這樣子，這個……"],["黃委員國昌：是有一點這樣？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個是……"],["黃委員國昌：哇！天哪！這樣很危險。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這是賴總統自己的觀察，我想是他……"],["黃委員國昌：你贊不贊成？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我沒有辦法表示贊成或不贊成……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，但是你接下來就要表示意見，看一下立法院職權行使法第十五條之二，我沒有要你背，我不會像考小學生一樣考你，這樣對你不尊敬，我把法條都列出來了。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：這個條文有沒有違憲？「立法院得經全體立法委員四分之一以上提議，院會決議後，由程序委員會排定議程，就國家安全大政方針，聽取總統國情報告。」請問第十五條之二這個條文有沒有違憲？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個條文的文字比較微妙，因為跟憲法的規定有一點點解讀上的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為你接下來要當憲法法庭的法官嘛！這個不是pending當中的案件，pending當中的案件我問你也不適當，這個已經是終結的案件嘛！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我問你，這個條文有沒有違憲？","主席……"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個條文的……"],["黃委員國昌：時間可不可以停下來？因為我每次問，他就靜止停格，然後時間都跑我的，這樣不好吧？"],["主席：時間暫停一下。跟委員報告一下，目前為止節奏還算順暢，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。"],["主席：我們繼續，好。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請。"],["主席：好，請。謝謝。"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個在文字上有解讀的問題，因為從憲法的角度來看，它是立法院「得」聽取總統的國情報告，那……"],["黃委員國昌：是，那有沒有違憲？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：表面上看起來是沒有違憲。"],["黃委員國昌：表面上看起來沒違憲？那你知不知道這個條文被我們憲法法庭宣告違憲，你知道嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是的，我了解。"],["黃委員國昌：你認為沒有違憲，我們憲法法庭宣告違憲啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我說表面上、字面上看起來……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！你知不知道這個條文什麼時候修的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：修的時間……"],["黃委員國昌：我跟你講，2008年賴清德當立委的時候修的！2008年賴清德當立委的時候修的，我就覺得很奇怪了，一個總統忘了自己當立委修過什麼法，結果自己修的法被憲法法庭宣告違憲，臉皮很厚！指著現在全體國會議員耶！沒有看過你們這麼糟糕的立法委員，修一個法律被宣告違憲。總統這樣子的發言有國家元首的高度嗎？還是總統希望挖一個坑給自己跳下去，看我們一般的臺灣公民有沒有發現？總統這樣子的發言有總統的高度嗎？怎麼會自己修過的法律自己都忘了！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：高度的問題我不方便評論。"],["黃委員國昌：我們再往下看通訊監察法的規定：「通訊監察書，偵查中由檢察官依司法警察機關聲請或依職權核發，審判中由法官依職權核發。」這個條文有沒有違憲？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：早期確實是由檢察官……可以來聲請，或者是……"],["黃委員國昌：監聽票啦！檢察官發，有沒有違憲？有還是沒有？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：現在被認為違憲，我想這個有時代的……"],["黃委員國昌：現在被認為違憲。什麼時候被認為違憲的？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：實際的日期我沒有印象。"],["黃委員國昌：很早以前啦！十幾年前了！2007年！快20年了耶！當初立這個法的，您知道是誰嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：又是賴清德！賴清德在當立委的時候，說檢察官可以發監聽票，後來在2007年被大法官以釋字第631號解釋宣告違憲了，現在賴清德是在打臉誰？在打臉他自己嗎？在打臉他自己嗎？重點是什麼？我們再往下看，這都是人權保障非常重要的條款啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：是。"],["黃委員國昌：國家機器什麼時候可以去監聽？法官保留還是檢察官保留？這些事情都很重要嘛！對不對？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們來看一下通保法的相關規定，通訊監察要不要法官保留？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：要法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：通訊使用者資料調取要不要法官保留？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：也要法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：通信紀錄調取要不要法官保留？","這個都是檢察官要很熟的事情啊！"],["蔡秋明被提名人：也要法官保留。"],["黃委員國昌：網路流量紀錄要不要法官保留？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：這個我不確定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係啦！網路流量紀錄是我們去年修法的，可能對你來講這是新的法。但是你剛剛的答案事實上是錯的。為什麼？通訊使用者資料調取不用法官保留。法務部向來的立場都是這個樣子啦！你忘了嗎？這很基本耶！這非常基本耶！","好，再來，檢察官傳喚證人做證，可以當場要求證人交出手機、要求查看手機內的通訊內容嗎？可不可以？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：我想這個……"],["黃委員國昌：這個是刑事基本人權啊！檢察官可以做這個事嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：證人的話就比較不適合。"],["黃委員國昌：就比較不適合？不要講「不適合」啦！被提名人，我們都是法律人，不是素人，素人才會用形容詞在形容，法律人就很清楚，可以這樣做嗎？"],["蔡秋明被提名人：對證人而言比較不適合。"],["黃委員國昌：根本不能這樣做嘛！本質上就是搜索嘛！人民為什麼對司法沒信任？現在的檢察官辦案，有告訴證人你有權拒絕嗎？有嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["黃委員國昌：我不知道你會不會通過，如果通過，回去瞭解一下，這是刑事基本人權耶！不要像你今天回答那麼多問題的答案一樣，讓人家感覺還搞不清楚狀況。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員的詢問，也謝謝蔡被提名人的回答，謝謝。","接下來請本院第2位詢問的委員王義川委員，請詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","黃國昌","王義川","許宇甄","林岱樺","王育敏","林淑芬","賴士葆","陳亭妃","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","林月琴","吳宗憲"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00004","1146501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1146501_00003"}}},{"id":"16807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16807","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a6091d28ad37f5503b0aad9f551ce5fa921f0d5b2c3b93916c3924606703262f7bfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-07-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-07-09T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-09T16:57:00+08:00","duration":30405,"影片長度":"08:26:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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作以來司法獨立、公平審判、中立執法、追求正義這些應該堅守的態度與價值我從來不曾改變在過去的任職期間我曾經在地方高等最高檢察署擔任檢察官分別對應過各級法院的法官"},{"start":2099.335,"end":2123.136,"text":"我也曾调任到法务部以及行政院办事并且在法务部担任国际级两岸法律司司长达四年之久也有了相当的行政主管历练我想有一个有多年公司司法实务经验的人担任司法行政首长应该更能理解"},{"start":2125.828,"end":2149.866,"text":"審檢辯在不同角色的定位與界限也更能促進不同法律人之間的理解與對話我相信審判獨立程序透明尊重專業信賴同仁是一位司法行政首長應有的堅持也是我個人個人未來工作的方向的指標"},{"start":2151.946,"end":2180.508,"text":"在談到未來的司法願景之前我想先說明目前司法機關面臨的困境接著報告未來及格努力的方向根據我個人觀察台灣的法官檢察官的能力跟素質都很高他們普遍工作也非常投入但是因為手上案件太多幾乎每天都有加班的班目前各級法院法官的辦案負擔確實非常的沉重"},{"start":2181.707,"end":2206.103,"text":"沉重的案件負荷不但會降低審判效率也可能會影響到裁判品質解決司法過勞問題將是我有幸擔任新職之後的重要目標也期盼未來能得到大院以及行政部門的支持以下我請就司法院的全責四項提出幾個未來的努力方向第一"},{"start":2207.13,"end":2235.941,"text":"法院工作負擔太重當然是因為現有人力不足上週的公聽會有先進建議大量增加法官助理和訴機關的員額這應該是一個正確的方向我們會再請人事單位仔細估算要建立一個合理的司法工作環境到底需要多少人力我們會盡一切努力向有關機關爭取增加員額"},{"start":2237.349,"end":2265.125,"text":"第二 進入審判程序的案件數量必須減少我若就任 會與主管刑法修正的法務部協調設法將法役侵害比較輕微的不法行為除罪化增加告訴乃論的罪名種類鼓勵在偵查階段推廣多元的訴訟外紛爭解決機制希望能減少法院的入口案件量"},{"start":2266.414,"end":2292.589,"text":"第三 在減輕法官裁判書類撰寫負擔方面我們會在獲得社會支持的前提下提供可行的案件處理協助系統我們也會同時訂定專屬的AI發展指引與確保技術應用的安全性與司法性我知道台灣民眾對司法機關的表現並不滿意"},{"start":2294.434,"end":2311.423,"text":"但是我們也看到一些希望司法院自從112年開始實施國民法官參與重大案件審判到目前為止社會上的反應基本上是肯定的那從明年開始還有更多的案件會進入國民參審程序"},{"start":2312.796,"end":2329.09,"text":"我認為要提高人民對司法的信賴最好的方法就是盡量讓民眾接近司法甚至直接參與審判工作但是人民參與審判是相當耗時的程序我們會來研究"},{"start":2330.219,"end":2353.174,"text":"要如何創造讓法官支持這個制度的誘因例如推動在一定刑度以下的國民參審案件讓裁判書類的製作更簡化並且在人民參與程序精簡精實的前提下精簡後續的上訴程序在目前"},{"start":2354.775,"end":2376.786,"text":"各項外部司法滿意度民調中最讓民眾不滿意的一項就是良行不當他們認為重罪輕判那我們會盡快建立一套務實可行可以預測而有法律依據的良行基準消除外界對良行不公的觀感"},{"start":2378.444,"end":2395.677,"text":"未來我們會把犯罪被害人權益的保障也列為司法院的一項改革重點特別是被害人的訴訟地位保障我們期望透過這個改革能建過一個平衡保障被告以及被害人權益的司法環境"},{"start":2396.897,"end":2423.351,"text":"日後我們在嚴提重要重大修法草案時也會同步進行政策及人權影響評估以提升法案的嚴謹度與透明度關於部分需要與行政院共同彙顯的法案我們會本著尊重主政提案機關的立場意中求同獲取共識絕不會因為自己的法務背景而有所偏頗"},{"start":2425,"end":2449.431,"text":"中華民國是一個民主國 也必須是一個法治國我們不是沒有看見社會上對司法的不信任也不是不理解有人對憲法審判可能受到干預的焦慮但我相信 我們一定能堅持法治原則 站穩腳步 公開透明"},{"start":2450.271,"end":2473.129,"text":"獨立審判,讓台灣的司法往更合理、更成熟、更值得信賴的方向邁進。如果大院給我這個機會,我願意請盡全力,守護人民權利,穩健民主發展,引領司法改革,解決司法過勞,堅持獨立審判,促進機關和諧,"},{"start":2475.685,"end":2503.032,"text":"謝謝各位委員的指教我願繼續接受社會監督也誠摯希望與大家共同營造一個更值得人民信賴的司法環境謝謝大家謝謝蔡被提名人邱銘先生之說明現在我們要進行委員的詢問"},{"start":2504.366,"end":2520.84,"text":"每位委員詢問時間為20分鐘,我們採集問集答的方式進行。輪到詢問的委員如不在場,視為棄權。首先,我們請黃國昌委員詢問,王逸川委員請準備。"},{"start":2543.77,"end":2548.731,"text":"謝謝院長 麻煩有請蔡貝提名人麻煩蔡貝提名人接受詢問貝提名人您好台灣民眾黨黨團在審查司法院院長及大法官的標準"},{"start":2567.438,"end":2589.149,"text":"在上一次大法官同意權行使的過程當中我們已經表明得非常的清楚有沒有勇氣對抗當權者扮演憲法守護者的角色去維護我國的民主憲政去貫徹我國的人權保障我相信這是最基本的要求不過很遺憾在您"},{"start":2590.768,"end":2616.402,"text":"回覆給本黨團問卷的內容我想先請問一下被提名人那都是你自己寫的嗎也有跟朋友請教的然後朋友請教 你請教哪些朋友大概都是我的同事我覺得非常詫異啊 被提名人你可以回去比對一下我發現你針對很多問題的回答"},{"start":2617.312,"end":2639.068,"text":"基本上跟我們目前當權的民進黨政府所發出來的官方聲明大同小異大同小異我只有20分鐘的時間如果被提名有興趣的話會後我可以跟你講一題一題你所提供的答案為什麼我說跟民進黨政府所發的官方聲明大同小異我先針對具體的問題進行"},{"start":2641.269,"end":2663.448,"text":"你是知道在賴清德上任一年以後全國人民最不滿意他施政表現的是哪一項?據我所知是司法是司法改革嗎?在2017年司法國會議以後搞了八年人民最不滿意是司法改革你覺得政府有沒有必要痛加檢討?有沒有必要?"},{"start":2665.545,"end":2686.24,"text":"我覺得有必要檢討有必要檢討你知不知道一年人民納稅人給司法院預算多少錢大概是1%多少錢錢的總數我沒有你要接任司法院院長現在司法院一年預算多少錢你不知道這會不會太離譜這很基本的"},{"start":2687.526,"end":2713.642,"text":"你要增加司法預算那你最起碼要知道現在預算多少錢未來還要爭取多少錢這個不是最基本的嗎結果你現在一年預算多少錢你不知道我沒有計總數但是我知道大概是從2016年2017年到2025年我們的司法預算是不是節節上升是不是是的我直接跟你講這很基本的啦從2017年納稅人給了216億"},{"start":2717.113,"end":2745.834,"text":"到今年288億不斷的在上升納稅人給司法這樣的支持我們的司法滿意度是持續探底成為賴清德在執政人民最會滿意的事項但你剛回答一個問題最起碼我肯定需要痛加檢討嘛需要痛加檢討嘛但我們看不到政府有任何痛加檢討的決心我舉一個最簡單的例子"},{"start":2746.633,"end":2766.205,"text":"目前上訴最高法院上訴第三審的案件民事案件要不要行言直辯論要不要行言直辯論依法該不該行言直辯論應該行言直辯論依法應該要言直辯論嘛現實上有言直辯論嗎有嗎民事的部分我比較不瞭解那刑事的部分你瞭解嗎"},{"start":2776.906,"end":2788.72,"text":"原則上不用言詞辯論嘛 另外才要嘛有必要才要嘛那你知不知道去年最高法院在民事案件原則上因行言詞辯論 行了幾件言詞辯論來我直接秀給你看啊"},{"start":2794.405,"end":2819.437,"text":"離譜的不得了啊最高法院上訴第三審的案件2003年我國為了建立金字塔型的訴訟制度上訴最高法院的案件依照民事訴訟法474條的規定應行延遲辯論但不必要則不在此件結果展現出來的是什麼民事上訴的案件一般的案件行延遲辯論的五件五件"},{"start":2820.868,"end":2849.724,"text":"現在有個最基礎的問題來了法官需不需要遵守法律 需要嗎當然還是法官可以置外於法律之外反正我是法官 誰拿我有批條民事訴訟法474條明文規定第三審上訴因行言之辯論請我們的最高法院把我們的法律當空氣耶一年上訴最高法院的案件行言之辯論五件耶這在開什麼玩笑啊"},{"start":2850.984,"end":2872.39,"text":"告一個那麼大的最高法院那麼好的法庭還有直播的設備結果一年刑五件延遲辯論蔡備提名人你覺得需不需要控加檢討這點我們會再來研究蔡備提名人你知道這件事情研究多久了嗎你是不是知道研究多久了"},{"start":2873.285,"end":2891.144,"text":"我第一次當立法委員的時候2016年下半年我第一次有機會最高法院的院長到立法院來備詢因為只有預算的時候他們要來嘛我提出了問題啊跟我說回去要檢討檢討了九年啊檢討了九年啊這就是檢討九年的結果啊"},{"start":2895.605,"end":2913.854,"text":"當法官認為我是最高法院的法官沒有人拿我有任何皮條的時候台灣是什麼法治國家人民要守法法官不要守法這樣對嗎蔡院長你上任司法院院長以後打算怎麼處理這件事"},{"start":2915.819,"end":2930.066,"text":"民事的部分我比較不熟悉你接下來要當司法院院長啊你不能夠說我只處理刑事的我民事的不管啊我沒有說我只處理刑事的你接下來打算要怎麼處理"},{"start":2931.243,"end":2958.544,"text":"民事的部分我想應該要先去深入了解這個原因到底為什麼深入了解很久了啦九年我們繼續往下看因為接下來要當憲法法庭的大法官特別要當司法院院長權力分立的原則人權的保障我國憲法的規定基本上就以這兩個為基石我們來看看您所謂的人權觀念跟權力分立啊您的認識啊是什麼"},{"start":2961.937,"end":2986.67,"text":"邱泰山你以前法務部的老長官嘛你當國兩司的時候就是他當部長把你拉進去的嘛2019年的時候離開法務部當國安諮詢委員可以把桃園地檢署的檢察長叫來叫他指示下面的檢察官要幫一個富商逃稅的案子做認罪協商可以做這種事嗎來請教"},{"start":2990.34,"end":3004.983,"text":"這個事情我只從媒體的報導高檢署都有調查報告出來啦我現在只問你一般的抽象法律原則嘛為高權重當過法務部部長的人可以幹這件事嗎還是之前的老長官你不方便講做這種事情的人應不應該負法律責任來請教法律責任我不敢說就是要看實際的"},{"start":3017.257,"end":3039.405,"text":"實際的狀況就是他找彭坤彥來啊 關說司法啊叫他幫富商 辦認罪協商啊彭坤彥回去就下條子給承辦檢察官 這都是客觀事實啊如果您不了解的話 高檢署的調查報告都出來了啊而且 那個時候立法院在追這件事情的時候 我第一任當立委你那時候也在法務部任職啊"},{"start":3040.816,"end":3066.806,"text":"但是我沒有看過這份報告我大概了解跟是從你連這件事情表示立場的勇氣都沒有連這個表示立場的勇氣都沒有這樣人民要如何期待你抗拒政治的壓力做好司法獨立審判我想要表示一個立場要先對事實有一定的了解那我接下來問你一定很清楚的謝謝"},{"start":3068.169,"end":3078.279,"text":"2019年2月香港政府宣布要提出逃犯條例的修法你還記不記得你那時候的回應是什麼"},{"start":3080.537,"end":3108.214,"text":"好像我曾經講過樂見其成樂見其成嘛你今天還覺得樂見其成嗎今天我覺得這個情勢的結果是當初所沒有預料到的2019年2月你說你沒有預料到來我們來看一看你的態度是怎麼轉變的香港提逃犯條例的修法你當初說樂見其成結果香港民運的領袖黃之鋒說什麼痛批你啊"},{"start":3109.304,"end":3116.41,"text":"對你的說法百思不得其解啊為什麼會樂見其成你知不知道你的態度什麼時候轉變的你還記得嗎"},{"start":3119.626,"end":3144.025,"text":"是後來發現 就是因為對香港的政治情勢其實我們當時不是太了解政治的情勢很奇怪耶當初二月的時候 三月的時候整個香港民運人士都起來抗議了啊逃犯條例的法條也公佈了啊你作為我國國兩司的司長對於他們要搞的逃犯條例 你樂見其成被黃之鋒出來痛批"},{"start":3145.421,"end":3167.371,"text":"你回去有反省嗎我們確實不了解香港的政治三月他不就公佈了嗎是公佈是公佈那因為我們之前跟香港一直沒有進行司法互助的經驗那我們來我告訴你啦有沒有經驗喔根本不是重點為什麼不是重點我告訴你你什麼時候態度轉變的"},{"start":3168.951,"end":3193.011,"text":"你態度轉變啊一直到五月還在發新聞稿說樂建跟香港合作什麼時候轉變的來我給你看六月的時候蔡英文發文譴責賴清德痛批結果民進黨兩個位高權重的人出來痛批了以後馬上轉向國兩司六月十四號發聲明譴責大轉彎"},{"start":3199.124,"end":3216.116,"text":"在這個整個歷程看下來我基本上覺得您對於這件事情沒有中心的理念完全沒有中心的理念就是看上億辦事啊等到上面的人講話了才趕快迎合上億發聲明稿 是不是這樣"},{"start":3220.038,"end":3247.027,"text":"這個聲明稿我怎麼發的我現在我記不太清楚你也不記得啦沒關係啦你回去好好看看啦我說話我一定負責啊整個歷程我整理得非常的清楚啊社會大眾也可以檢驗看我今天站在這邊啊所提出來的批判到底合理還是不合理啊來下一個問題我們跟多少國家簽引渡條約你國兩司司長應該很清楚嗎引渡條約很少很少是幾個"},{"start":3248.838,"end":3274.766,"text":"應該是個位數啦我現在沒有具體的數十一個國家啦十一個國家奇怪法務部的官這麼好當喔這麼基本的事實問題過去這十年沒有增加任何新的國家過去這十年沒有增加任何新的國家這不是你主管的法律嗎再往下看立法委員修法提高老農津貼有沒有違憲"},{"start":3280.52,"end":3305.806,"text":"過去老農沒有津貼嘛我四千塊給他提升到六千元嘛照顧我們辛苦的農民嘛立法委員提案修法增加老農津貼有沒有違憲基本我認為是沒有違憲基本上認為沒有違憲那就很奇怪啦為什麼說很奇怪我問卷發給你啊結果你附和九龍派的說法說法律案增加政府支出違憲"},{"start":3307.978,"end":3319.332,"text":"你還記得你寫的答案嗎我看了你寫的答案我非常驚訝我驚訝到說你的答案怎麼跟卓榮泰的聲明長的87%像"},{"start":3322.435,"end":3338.561,"text":"你基本上就符合卓榮泰的說法啊你今天又在這邊跟我講立法委員修法增加老農今天沒有違憲那我再請教你立法委員修法增加對於原住民的進法補償金額從每公頃三萬元提高到五萬元有沒有違憲"},{"start":3341.806,"end":3363.611,"text":"基本上我認為沒有違憲基本上你認為沒有違憲 非常好記得你今天的答案回去再好好看看你給我們黨團的回覆怎麼會跟你今天在這邊的答覆差這麼多時間的關係我要一直往下走只有20分鐘 問題非常的多再來賴清德在所謂的團結實講中他說"},{"start":3367.11,"end":3395.179,"text":"他自己當立法委員12年沒有看過立法院通過一個法律被判決違憲痛批啊這個是在台灣史無前例啊贊不贊成賴清德這樣的說法我不是聽得很清楚就是之前的沒有被宣告違憲還是現在不是啊我問你啊提名你的應該是賴清德總統嘛是你有跟他見過面嗎見過一次面對啊他講的這個話很重欸"},{"start":3397.734,"end":3415.891,"text":"總統指責我們立法院耶說他自己當立法委員12年沒有看過這麼離譜的立法院通過法律被宣告違憲所以我才請教你 贊不贊成賴清德這樣的說法嗎還是你已經過著隱世獨居的生活外面社會發生什麼事情你都不知道"},{"start":3417.196,"end":3444.482,"text":"是有點這樣子是有點這樣哇天啊這樣很危險耶這是賴總統自己的觀察我想是他你贊不贊成我沒有辦法表示贊成沒關係啊但是你接下來就要表示意見來看一下立法院職權刑事法15條之二我沒有要你背啦我不會像考小學生一樣考你這樣對你不尊敬我把法條都列出來了這個條文有沒有違憲"},{"start":3450.455,"end":3452.156,"text":"這個條文的比較文字比較微妙因為跟憲法的規定有一點點"},{"start":3472.7,"end":3485.028,"text":"沒有關係啦因為你接下來要當憲法法庭的法官嘛這個不是Pending當中的案件Pending當中的案件我問你也不適當嘛這個已經是終結的案件嘛所以我問你這個條文有沒有違憲那個主席我的時間可不可以停下來因為我每次問他就禁止停格然後時間都跑我的這樣不好吧"},{"start":3500.509,"end":3505.163,"text":"時間暫停一下跟委員報告一下目前為止的節奏還算順暢好不好OK好來請"},{"start":3510.424,"end":3539.916,"text":"我想這個是在文字上有解讀的問題因為從憲法的角度來看他是第二方面得聽取總統的國情報所以有沒有違憲表面上看起來是沒有違憲的表面上看起來沒違憲了你知不知道這個條文被我們憲法法庭宣告違憲了你知道嗎是的我了解你認為沒有違憲我們憲法法庭宣告違憲了我說表面上字面上看起來是嘛你知不知道這個條文什麼時候修的"},{"start":3543.662,"end":3558.792,"text":"來我跟你講啊2008年賴清德當立委的時候修的啊我都覺得很奇怪了一個總統忘了自己當立委修過什麼法"},{"start":3559.884,"end":3584.614,"text":"結果自己修的法被立法院被憲法法庭宣告違憲臉皮很厚欸指責現在全體國會議員欸沒有看過你們這麼糟糕的立法委員啊修一個法律被宣告違憲總統這樣子的發言有國家元首的高度嗎還是總統希望挖一個坑給他自己跳下去看我們一般台灣的公民有沒有發現總統這樣的發言有總統的高度嗎"},{"start":3590.282,"end":3612.641,"text":"怎麼會自己修過法律自己都忘了欸高度的問題我不方便評論好來我們再往下看通訊監察法的規定來一樣我給你時間看通訊監察法規定通訊監察書偵查中有檢察官依照司法警察機關申請或依職權核發審判中有法官依職權核發這個條文有沒有違憲"},{"start":3617.33,"end":3645.111,"text":"早期確實是有檢察官可以來就是來申請或者是監聽票啦檢察官發有沒有違憲有還是沒有現在被認為違憲我想這個有現在被認為違憲什麼時候被認為違憲的實際的時間實際的日期我沒有印象很早以前啦十幾年前了2007年快20年了"},{"start":3647.245,"end":3669.658,"text":"當初立這個法的,您知道是誰嗎?我不知道又是賴清德賴清德在當立委的時候說檢察官可以發監聽票後來什麼?4至631號2007年的大法官宣告違憲現在賴清德是在打臉誰?在打臉他自己嗎?在打臉他自己嗎?"},{"start":3670.916,"end":3698.35,"text":"重點是什麼 我們再往下看這都是人權保障非常重要的條款啊國家機器什麼時候可以去監聽法官保留還是檢察官保留這些事情都很重要嘛 對不對來 我們來看一下通保法相關的規定通訊監察要不要法官保留要法官保留通訊使用者資料調取要不要法官保留也要法官保留"},{"start":3699.295,"end":3728.204,"text":"通訊紀錄調取要不要法官保留?這個都是檢察官要很熟的事情啊也要法官保留網路流量紀錄要不要法官保留?這個我不確定好沒關係啊網路流量紀錄啊是我們去年修法可能對你來講這是新的法但是你剛剛的答案啊事實上是錯的為什麼?通訊使用者資料調取不用法官保留法務部向來的立場都是這個樣子啊"},{"start":3729.394,"end":3758.98,"text":"你忘了嗎這很基本耶這非常基本耶好來 再來檢察官傳喚證人作證可以當場要求證人交出手機要求查看手機內的通訊內容嗎可不可以我想這個這個是刑事基本人權啦檢察官可以做這個 是嗎證人的話就比較不適宜就比較不適合 不要講不適合啦"},{"start":3760.353,"end":3770.157,"text":"對平民人,我們都是法律人,不是素人素人才會用形容詞在形容法律人就很清楚,可以這樣做嗎?這樣做嘛,本質上就是搜索嘛人民為什麼對司法還信任?今天的檢察官辦案,有告訴證人你有權拒絕嗎?有嗎?好"},{"start":3797.971,"end":3810.217,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員的詢問謝謝蔡貝提名人的回答 謝謝蔡貝提你要不要休息一下 請"},{"start":3837.466,"end":3843.61,"text":"好接下來我們請本院第二位詢問的委員王逸川委員請詢問我們請院長請蔡提名人再請蔡備提名人請王委員好"},{"start":3866.633,"end":3891.42,"text":"歡迎你到立法院來參與這一次的審查會剛剛委員的詢問你表現得還不錯謝謝該回答就回答因為很多在這裡審查其實是要羞辱你的還好你沒有動怒這個表現得很好第二個"},{"start":3892.628,"end":3913.628,"text":"因為你接下來要當司法院的院長以後憲法法庭很多會議也要你來主持所以我是建議你接下來包括很多委員的巡檔針對很多的個案不用進行評論"},{"start":3915.728,"end":3940.502,"text":"因為我們知道憲法法庭即使憲法法庭在開會也要有公開說明會也要有延遲辯論那個都是還算蠻冗長的程序兩兆都必須陳述自己的意見然後大法官一一來詢問他們的質疑所以用這麼短暫的時間請你針對個案來表態"},{"start":3945.976,"end":3970.067,"text":"這個並不適合因為如果你針對個案來表態那就有是一個大法官有是一個司法院院長的高度這個可能建議你要小心因為以後你當司法院院長總不能你這個司法院上班的時候一堆媒體擋在司法院的門口問你說院長啊"},{"start":3971.392,"end":3978.257,"text":"這個上個禮拜有一個案子昨天有一個案子這樣這樣這樣那你有什麼看法你還侃侃而談這就不對了"},{"start":3981.315,"end":4001.581,"text":"因為你自己當檢察官每一個個案複雜的程序只有這個偵查中跟審判進行中的人這些相關的司法人員才知道全貌所以針對這些個別的個案我是建議你因為今天的審查這個李焕宜"},{"start":4003.288,"end":4022.043,"text":"有鬼守神 神仙龍虎豹 乎龍罷兵專業的不專業的都有就是你要謹守一個司法人員盡可能的不要去評論到個案因為這個很多個案可能也不是你理解的那樣第一個第二個"},{"start":4026.625,"end":4038.665,"text":"請問這個被提名人 兵凶時啊兵凶時 你有在關心新聞啊 網路啊這些社會關注的案件啊在看 看了"},{"start":4039.707,"end":4069.151,"text":"你通常會跟你的同事討論 家人討論 朋友討論譬如說 我記得國中生殺死他的家人也有這種詐騙被騙得很慘的也有這一個說他這個精神善思心 神好作這些人他們去殺了他們的家人罪該萬死你現在要做提名人之前你遇到這些案子你通常會怎麼討論你的說法"},{"start":4070.823,"end":4094.462,"text":"我很少幾乎沒有跟同事討論案件就是跟司法案件有關的報導那如果是在家裡看電視的時候那可能跟太太一起看 可能會聊一下就這樣好 那你會你會這一個這個不由自主地說 哎呀 這種會破太輕啦啊 這種的怎麼可以交報啦"},{"start":4098.851,"end":4119.566,"text":"啊這張怎麼可以這樣放他回去啦你會不會有這種評論就你單純只看媒體因為你自己當檢察官嘛你也知道這個檢察官對這個被告或者是嫌疑人執行這個所謂的強制處分的時候你一定有理由的嘛然後要法官來這個同意嘛對不對"},{"start":4120.359,"end":4149.034,"text":"可是我們外界在外面看新聞啊 看媒體報導啊看過之後說 啊這個這樣這個我幫他照 這樣不通啊這個警察哥怎麼請他回去 怎麼可以這樣啊這法官 檢察官 欸我們很多人認為對司法沒有信心啊都是這樣看了之後 街頭巷尾大家評論了之後啊 這樣我們這司法這樣不行 像這次你扣押的啊怎麼不把你抓起來 還幫他出去弄垃圾"},{"start":4150.066,"end":4160.352,"text":"你以後當司法院院長 我把它切成兩塊一個是你現在還沒當司法院院長一個是以後你是一個司法院院長你的態度會是什麼"},{"start":4162.559,"end":4185.661,"text":"我想我態度,因為我自己做過司法工作做了三十幾年,可能跟完全沒有接觸司法的一些朋友可能對案件的看法、觀點可能比較不一樣,我比較傾向不會立即做判斷,當然在同事之間幾乎沒有這樣子的討論。"},{"start":4187.422,"end":4215.188,"text":"因為他們都是法律人他們很了解就是要就像剛如同剛委員講的對一個案子你除非你有親身常辦過了解這細節了解案件的來龍去脈不然外人即使沒有接觸的很難評論好那你接下來當司法院院長請你可不可以跟大家講一下醫療啦我們這司法的案件"},{"start":4216.772,"end":4246.133,"text":"任何一個案子 我講任何一個案子你又不會去問這個法官 問這個個庭說欸 都案子社會關注捏 啊那些司法都認定不公捏啊一個案辦這麼多年 你們可不可以辦得更快捏你會不會 你帶個司法院院長齁 這是行政的 就是說總是會看一下大家各個法院現在審理的狀況嘛進度有些拖很久啊諸如此類"},{"start":4247.045,"end":4253.842,"text":"你會不會有這樣的驚喜啦或者是這樣的指導啦或者是這樣的提醒啊"},{"start":4254.963,"end":4280.361,"text":"我想在個案上一定不會就是說我不會去找法官特別是懲判的法官跟他講說這個案子要快一點這個案子外面有很多民間有很多反應因為這是在法院體系這是一個很大的禁忌就算是院長或他自己的庭長大概都不會這樣講但是如果就一個整體的"},{"start":4281.96,"end":4310.3,"text":"司法行政政策那基本上我們會有相關的聽處那我們也許會做討論的時候我們可能會有一些比如說政策性的研討或政策性的討論那但是不會去跟各案人法官去做提示這樣子蠻重要的啦 這個一定要堅守住但是因為在你的報告裡頭你自己也提到嘛 這個人力不足啦"},{"start":4311.242,"end":4315.501,"text":"人力不足那所以呢你如果說現在性都性很慢"},{"start":4316.482,"end":4344.129,"text":"要審一年、要審兩年 立法委員有事情立法委員就都做了 跟召議員做館長 召議員做起庭他的案可能都還沒定現 這都有可能 各自各樣的可能都有你看這個整體全貌的時候 各地方法院 各高等法院跟你說我們就人不夠啊 我們一個案抽頭很多案啊 我們就沒辦法啊我們的速度就這麼慢啊"},{"start":4345.271,"end":4365.661,"text":"你當司法院的院長 你會下什麼樣的指示我想就是如同我剛剛在口頭報告裡面提到的案件工作太重 它對案件的進行一定會有影響的"},{"start":4368.208,"end":4393.568,"text":"那特別是我們的行政訴訟制度它並不是採取所謂高度的集中審理這樣子的方式它有點像就是有一個日本教授說我們是採取是牙醫式的訴訟程序不是那種外科手術式的方式因為英美法比較像他們要集中審理趕快把這個案件審完那其他案件就會放著"},{"start":4394.11,"end":4414.22,"text":"那你這個案件這個禮拜審一次下禮拜或者是下個月審一次那可能就比較平均但是問題就是可能會造成每一件案子都會拖比較久但是最重要的問題是我們現在的就案件的量來看我們的人力確實是不足"},{"start":4415.08,"end":4439.318,"text":"那這個困難度很高啦就是我剛剛有提到說因為有先進建議說要增加他並不是說增加法官的人數而是增加助理跟書籍官的人數因為這兩個現在兩方都很欠缺這個權益證實立法院通過法庭的審理要直播啦這你應該也了解"},{"start":4441.45,"end":4465.84,"text":"因為你如果當司法院的院長這事情就到你頭上了是那有沒有跟同事同仁大家討論過說這如果用直播差不多一年要花多少司法院的行政單位是有回復的 聽起來金額很龐大因為因為你接下來當司法院院長這個搞不好搞下去的這個費用"},{"start":4467.574,"end":4477.918,"text":"可能會吃掉司法院一半以上的醫生或者是要增加大概一倍或者將近一倍這樣的一個預算你有什麼看法具體的"},{"start":4481.673,"end":4508.103,"text":"花費的數字因為我現在是被提名人我現在其實也不方便跟司法院接觸所以也這是一個新的業務因為最近才通過那我們在三個月以後我們會要開始實施那這段時間我們會做一些配套的規劃比如說報告預算包括其他的當然這已經通過啦照規矩就是你們要辦嘛"},{"start":4511.529,"end":4522.333,"text":"你覺得這個事情是正面的還是說因為我們常常說什麼司法不公啦 黑箱啦什麼的全部都在衝直播啦 看你整天都在說什麼啦這樣子對"},{"start":4538.149,"end":4544.719,"text":"你現在也算檢測官,你檢測官的力量,我們先說檢測官的力量就是說直播出去,有了直播出去,他們問這樣,你就要穩良公正這樣,不然你告訴人家"},{"start":4553.746,"end":4566.613,"text":"欸 你上次我在徵訊你的時候 你明明就這樣講 筆錄都有你現在在法官前面 竟然這樣講欸 這句話我如果說得這麼難齁這直播出去 我可能說 啊 法 檢察官你態度好一點講話要這麼兇嗎 你在大聲什麼 這樣可是這有可能是法庭裡面的常態嘛我們今天在說要被那個被告激怒呢我們都說好啊 你都簽 你也已經在徵訊筆錄 你都簽到書 都在都簽啊"},{"start":4580.799,"end":4600.947,"text":"跟法官討錢 反靠近啊 這樣有可能嘛齁或者是說法官看了就說 欸不是啊 被告我看到的卷證這個都有啊 而且檢察官徵詢你都有啊啊你現在怎麼在改欸欸 到時候在直播出去法官你在講什麼東西啊你講話可以態度好一點嗎你講話只會小聲一點嗎你這樣會嚇到我的我的當事人欸 你認為醫療這事情怎麼發展"},{"start":4610.445,"end":4624.177,"text":"事實上我現在沒辦法預測,但是這個法律已經通過,所以必須要進行,因為台灣是一個法治國家,但是在這種方面,政策改端其實是不公開的,政治改端是不能進步的。"},{"start":4631.863,"end":4654.659,"text":"現在可以進步的部分是審判 或者審問跟涉事審問的部分涉事審問的作用是不公開的 公開的部分是議件書辯論的部分所以我想這個部分處理起來比較不正常意識 可能麻煩但是一樣有很多人很擔憂 非常憂心 這才有很多問題的發生"},{"start":4659.262,"end":4688.499,"text":"都很擔憂啦 怕民眾擔不擔憂而已連國民黨自己也擔憂啦他們為自己的案子 說不要啦 不要公開審判連公開審判都不要 還要直播所以這個部分可能未來啦 你如果做司法院的院長啊包括我們這裡的法官啊我想這個也不知道要怎麼做心理建設因為這個算是 以前法官高高在上嘛坐在上面像我們院長坐在上面我們這個董事長都坐在上面嘛"},{"start":4689.668,"end":4717.256,"text":"以後法官問問題要像韓院長一樣講話溫文如也也不能夠生氣就是單純因為我在看憲法法庭的時候我看每一個大法官法庭都溫文如也問問題可是實質上法院的審理應該沒這麼溫柔有時候因為你遇到被告很惡劣的時候當下也會輸人生氣"},{"start":4719.977,"end":4740.291,"text":"所以這一塊可能接下來你當司法院的院長看大家討論一下怎麼樣讓我們的司法人員法官要審理的時候怎麼樣避免在這種直播的過程當中心理受創因為我知道很多法官檢察官下班後"},{"start":4741.783,"end":4763.699,"text":"今天一般的都一樣,捷運、騎腳踏車都有很多都是這樣因為他換下他的工作服,有時候就一件襯衫就要回家所以這一塊有可能在直播出去以後像最近他們的抄襪橋牆,一些法官、檢察官的橡皮劈出來"},{"start":4764.628,"end":4787.162,"text":"阿公用一些血跡恐嚇異位敵人對法官檢察官影響都很大所以接下來直播下去之後這一塊可能司法院要對這件事情看要怎麼樣的因應因為你接掌司法院院長之後這一題就是你的問題了謝謝委員提醒接下來"},{"start":4788.274,"end":4810.414,"text":"你認為國內的政黨 大家正在動 正在競爭最近也有政黨去解散 去跟憲法法庭去解散主要是跟憲法法庭去解散你對這種解散政黨 你要看什麼"},{"start":4812.348,"end":4838.925,"text":"這案件我記得應該是在細數中的案件吧不知道是不是細數中的案件那如果是細數中的案件就是說他受理以後細數中的案件我確實比較不好在這裡就這個案子發表這樣你這樣回答就對了我很怕你再給我回答這個個案不可以回答因為你不知道你再回答你會說不對"},{"start":4840.211,"end":4867.85,"text":"說不定這問題大家都知道會被標題你說這個進行中的案子你沒有完整的資訊沒辦法回答但是憲法法庭解散政黨這個事情你總可以評論憲法法庭解散政黨不管這個政黨的理念是什麼很多人說你這個憲法法庭的大法官怎麼可以把人家的政黨給解散"},{"start":4869.648,"end":4893.583,"text":"這個事情你的看法這個案件是憲法訴訟法規定的受理案件之一那至於到底要怎麼審理我想要看這個政黨他的作為他過去的一些主張還有沒有什麼實際的行動對於民主憲政或對國家"},{"start":4896.244,"end":4917.85,"text":"有危害那如果有這些情況有可能被宣告違憲解散那如果沒有這種情況那就不會被解散我想就會被駁回好最後再問一個課題就是關於這個通訊投票不在籍投票的題目"},{"start":4918.972,"end":4946.113,"text":"那這些當然有可能被設定到部分的族群也許是部分的工作 部分的族群就是說它不是全面性的這個通訊投票啦 選舉啦通訊投票 不載集投票它可能會被設定因為某些因素所以它被設定某一些族群 某一些工作 某一些什麼什麼什麼這些人可以不載集投票 他們可以通訊投票"},{"start":4946.954,"end":4963.579,"text":"那這個事情啊如果站在這一個你是一個大法官按照憲法的角度憲法就是我們每個人選舉罷免創制不決嘛那大家都要平等嘛對不對大家都要平等啊有一些人可以通訊投票不在一起投票"},{"start":4964.674,"end":4973.18,"text":"如果是說全面開放啦 反正我就想我大頭紅 我就要去綠島投票啦 我的票可以去綠島就對了我就是要去那裡投票 因為投票那天我要去綠島一投啦所以我就去那裡投票就好如果去特定 特定的設定了部分的身份 部分的族群"},{"start":4984.987,"end":5000.15,"text":"這樣在這個憲法上,你的認定,我們大家都一樣,可是有一些人因為他的新聞,所以他被設定,他可以進行這樣的一個跟別人不一樣的權利,或者主張,這件事情你有什麼看法?"},{"start":5002.549,"end":5030.368,"text":"呃理論上來講我想人民都有投票權但是並沒有指定在特定地區投票這樣的權利了那當然呃這個議題應該是中選會去去考量那有可能這種案子會到現在法庭來所以呢我現在我也比較不方便去提說這種這種主張到底是做法到底是違憲還是不違憲"},{"start":5032.129,"end":5055.694,"text":"那基本上法律有給一般人民這樣的就是在一定的地點投票的權利也已經有給他這個權利但是是不是一定要在特定地區投票這樣的權利這是不是憲法保障的權利我想這會有一點討論的空間好 這個就是持久再討論好 那這個謝謝你今天參加我們的審查會"},{"start":5059.52,"end":5062.804,"text":"也祝你這一個審查的最後投票結果能夠過關"},{"start":5096.257,"end":5101.802,"text":"好我們接下來請登記第三位徐議政委員詢問林黛化委員請準備謝謝院長我們請蔡備提名人麻煩請蔡備提名人"},{"start":5123.075,"end":5150.578,"text":"薛仁豪貝提米人您好我想您時任檢察官將近30年的時間那不管在一審二審的檢察官擔任主任檢察官而且借調最高檢察署多年那另外也曾這個專長您的專長是刑事司法案件的實務也多次參與最高法院的一個大法庭的言辭辯論那也協助法務部進行憲法的訴訟所以您"},{"start":5151.158,"end":5173.593,"text":"熟悉司法體系的運作也擅長國際的司法交流但是因為你這次被提名的是大法官而且還要擔任司法院長所以您在3月21號的介紹提名會指出您未來的兩項工作重點一個是在推動法官跟檢察官與一段時間能夠互相交換接觸增加不同的經驗"},{"start":5174.654,"end":5200.555,"text":"第二點是在於面對五權憲法的失衡狀態涉及憲法層次的事和憲法法庭協助處理跟解決因為針對這個部分外界會質疑這會出現審檢一體的亂象所以連民進黨團的總召也都說檢察官當司法院長當然不妥而您自己也提到總統提名令您也覺得不可思議"},{"start":5201.295,"end":5229.249,"text":"所以這也是外界大家的疑慮所以想請教蔡貝提名人其實我們在這個大法官釋字第392號的解釋有明確的指出針對台灣審檢分立的這個制度事實上這就是台灣審檢分立的一個憲法基石而在國際上日本戰後所制定的檢察聽法也是為了保障審判的獨立而制度上必須與法院分立 互不干預"},{"start":5230.29,"end":5253.545,"text":"而在德國也根據德國基本法與刑事訴訟法的相關規定呢也就於這個審判權的刑事審判權的法院保持組織跟職能上的分離那這也是德國也是審檢分立的一個制度喔那因為蔡被庭人您沒有擔任過法官但是呢您在這個總統府庭庭的記者會提到就是說"},{"start":5254.085,"end":5268.619,"text":"在台灣法官比較靜態檢察官比較動態所以希望兩個工作未來能有一段時間互相的交換接觸增加視野但是看起來這已經違背市制第392號所揭示的憲法原則"},{"start":5269.94,"end":5283.875,"text":"而且台灣40年來都是審檢分立不僅是憲法的保障也是國際司法的標準那這樣的言行其實已經引發社會對您可能破壞司法獨立的一個高度的疑慮是不是可以請您說明一下"},{"start":5284.915,"end":5307.028,"text":"是的,我在被提名的記者會上確實有講過類似的話但是我當時的想法是針對未來因為我知道現在法官的工作狀態我剛剛講的算是比較靜態但是他的工作負荷很重"},{"start":5307.828,"end":5323.754,"text":"所以如果有機會他去做不同的工作事實上就他的工作或者是他的生活形態來講他事實上一個調整那以在台灣來講檢察官轉任法官或者是法官轉任檢察官"},{"start":5324.794,"end":5351.177,"text":"這個是實施多年的事實就是說這個有輪調制度一直以來到目前為止都還有今年大概有11位檢察官會調到法官來那有法官調去當檢察官的比較少對外界的疑慮將對於審檢分立可能違反這樣的原則那你要怎麼來去讓這個司法獨立能夠真正的落實"},{"start":5353.159,"end":5375.776,"text":"我這個說法沒有違法的疑慮因為台灣的審檢分立已經四十幾年四十幾年來從來沒有發生過因為檢察官調來當法官以後他就案件他就會判有罪或者是說會有特別法官去當檢察官以後他就不起訴從來沒有發生過這種情況"},{"start":5377.577,"end":5402.342,"text":"我想這應該也沒有一個要擔任司法院院長的這個被提名人提出這樣的一個主張因為您不是只是這個交流而是要互相交換就剛剛您講的把檢審護掉這樣子一個狀況那當然外界就會質疑未來這個檢審分立的制度是不是會嚴重的被破壞所以其實大家都有這樣的疑慮那剛剛我想被提名人提到這樣的方式"},{"start":5402.702,"end":5413.467,"text":"事實上我想並不足以說明也並不足以回應外界的一個質疑所以針對這個部分您是不是可以再重新考慮一下是不是還要推動這樣一個這個檢審護照讓司法獨立變成空談呢"},{"start":5417.435,"end":5440.722,"text":"我想檢審護調這個事情我剛剛講過是事實現在也在實施中不會破壞司法獨立也不會破壞審檢分立那我如果我之前簡短講過了一些話那有造成誤會我要在這裡跟社會大眾道歉這其實是一個誤解"},{"start":5442.463,"end":5455.71,"text":"那您剛已經道歉了我想針對這個事情大概也解除了大家的疑慮那另外就是我想請教您就是說您在拉法業界的軍購弊案當中的辦案經驗"},{"start":5458.071,"end":5473.507,"text":"所以是強調因為追回不法所得得到的貢獻但是因為這個案子當然我想您追回不法所得的貢獻大家是可以肯定的但在拉法業案中前檢察總長盧仁發因為聽命陳水扁總統的"},{"start":5475.189,"end":5502.811,"text":"動搖國本也要辦到底的指示喔也對當時的北京檢察長黃世明施壓要求起訴而黃世明因為不從被調職您接手後立刻的這個羈押起訴了雷學明等五人喔而且還在辯論法庭說判無罪不符合一般的期待判有罪往傳輔在國外的錢才能匯回來這樣的話這樣是一個檢察官該講的話嗎這是不是已經有這個背離無罪推定的一個原則呢"},{"start":5504.392,"end":5531.078,"text":"這有三個問題我一一回答第一個問題就是起訴雷學明等案子的這個案件事實上這個案子在起訴是90年7月5號在北檢起訴那時候其實我人在板橋地檢也就是說我是90年11月在從板橋地檢的主任檢察官調任台北地檢檢察官"},{"start":5531.88,"end":5554.174,"text":"所以這個案件起訴的時候我其實我人不在北檢事實上是一個誤會很大的誤會所以這個是第一個如果是一個誤會的話事實上這個媒體報導多年為什麼都沒有看到您在媒體或者在這個這個上面澄清說您並沒有這樣子的一個說法或狀況這個部分的話我想"},{"start":5555.354,"end":5579.65,"text":"這個部分因為可能是一個無心之過啦因為就是有法學前輩這樣指正嘛因為他跟這個案子有一些關係所以他有一些想法在看法我覺得無可厚非但是為什麼您不出來說明真相呢如果您說的當時並不是你所以這個案子是跟你無關嗎不是跟我無關這個案子因為我後來調到北檢以後我就有參與"},{"start":5581.331,"end":5598.986,"text":"公訴 差異力挺就是我會參加公訴活動參加公訴活動最後在辯論的時候我到底有沒有講過剛剛委員所提過的這兩句話那我不復記憶因為這是二十幾年前的事情這是民國九十年但是從一個論告的檢察官"},{"start":5601.128,"end":5619.707,"text":"來講這兩句話我覺得並沒有什麼過分的地方這是一個檢察官的主張嘛因為這是辯論但是這已經違反了無罪推認而且當時你是針對證據不足的狀況之下起訴了這五位的軍官而後來也因為沒有辦法得到任何的證據顯示"},{"start":5620.888,"end":5644.747,"text":"這五位軍官跟他的家人是不是真的有被收到相關的匯款或是不法的利益所以最後他們是不是無罪釋放無罪推定的問題我再跟委員解釋一下無罪推定確實是符合刑務訴訟法的規定就是你在被告在判決有罪確定之前都是推定為無罪"},{"start":5645.714,"end":5663.372,"text":"那檢察官起訴並不表示他就有罪因為他是無罪推定嘛直到法官判決有罪這個時候他無罪推定才消失那如果他被判決無罪那不是符合無罪推定嗎因為他本來就是推定無罪啊"},{"start":5663.672,"end":5691.824,"text":"那當年請問你在沒有證據的狀況之下起訴這五位軍官的理由是什麼是因為收到上級的指示必須要指這個還是沒有任何的證據當然不是那時候我去力挺的時候我們已經從瑞士拿回來將近一萬頁的銀行資料的證據換句話說我們已經確定這個案子確實法方付了五億兩千萬的"},{"start":5693.666,"end":5712.123,"text":"美金的佣金到瑞士的汪傳普以及他家人跟公司的帳戶事實上這個有付佣金那跟雷學明這五位有什麼關係當時你們邊有真正的證據那請問有什麼樣的證據嗎否則當時的秀明法官這個洪櫻花他也不會在這個判決書這個職次檢察官"},{"start":5714.545,"end":5732.201,"text":"表態搶攻他講這樣的話其實很重喔表態搶攻有什麼意思要跟誰搶攻就是由上官怎麼判斷所以後來這個案件事實上就是無罪那尤其是賴清德總統他在94年擔任立委的時候也公開指責雷選民等人收賄2000元美金"},{"start":5734.522,"end":5748.213,"text":"2000萬美元但雷學明等人最終獲判無罪確定證明當年的指控沒有事實根據而當委主責檢察官奉命起訴後來被證明清白的人那現在呢賴總統又這個起這個"},{"start":5751.215,"end":5770.947,"text":"提名你擔任司法院院長是不是形同對這些被害人事實上是再補一刀那尤其是針對這樣子他們當年歷經多年的纏訴然後長期的羈押甚至有人還在案件中含冤而死針對這五位受害者請問你們你有任何的道歉之意嗎"},{"start":5772.288,"end":5790.605,"text":"我想這個案件案件的事情剛剛王委員講的就是事實上很難評斷因為有些案件法官判無罪檢察官會上訴上訴以後判有罪也有可能我現在只是針對這個案子針對這個案子你對這些無辜的這個案子我覺得我不方便在這邊表示我的個人的意見"},{"start":5795.669,"end":5818.253,"text":"因為這是一個案件 他是已經判決確定那就是對於當年你們沒有任何證據的之下起訴然後最後獲判無罪您是不是覺得應該對這些被害人道歉呢我覺得這邊可能不方便這樣講因為一個案子其實非常非常的特別是這個案子是國際這樣子貪瀆的案件系前的案件其實非常非常的複雜我想這個司法"},{"start":5821.994,"end":5836.548,"text":"院的組織法第五條有規定大法官需要超出黨派可以獨立行使職權不受任何的干預所以如果你連回答這個問題的勇氣都沒有的話我們未來怎麼能夠相信你能夠超出黨派獨立行使職權呢"},{"start":5844.896,"end":5854.925,"text":"我就是在請教這個案子您針對這五位最後無罪被釋放的這五位被害者您有沒有這個道歉之意嗎我遵守法院的判決"},{"start":5855.726,"end":5878.037,"text":"我尊重法院的判決因為法院已經判決無罪 確定那我尊重法院的判決另外再請教您就是最近有發生幾起重大的社會案件但司法機關處理的模式也引發爭論讓人質疑就是保政府不保人民台中市豐原五口的命案理性嫌犯以詐欺恐嚇洗錢等罪嫌移送法辦檢方後來是15萬元交保"},{"start":5880.638,"end":5905.751,"text":"交保的理由是沒有串供的問題可是理性嫌犯主導王家去地下這個錢莊高利貸 借高利貸明明還有眾多嫌犯這樣會到案 怎麼會沒有串供他交保後還在網路發文幫自己叫屈這是五條人命耶 結果15萬交保而土城家暴的謝姓男子當街殺害妻子小姨子現在因為涉嫌違反這個家暴保護例如說他太太報警"},{"start":5906.852,"end":5929.283,"text":"那前一天呢他五寶赤毀之後隔天就殺死了他的妻子跟小姨子而且手法非常凶殘這兩個案子呢我們可以看得出來鄭文燦的案件交保林秉賢的交保之後落跑通緝鍾文智交保之後落跑通緝許多人在這個網路反映喔重大的社會案件"},{"start":5930.336,"end":5952.707,"text":"跟親民進黨的人都可以交保那長官來說做一個梗圖的人必須要羈押禁建疑似偽造文書的人必須要羈押禁建我們知道羈押涉及人權這個字人身自由就有高度的強制性與痛苦性所以非必要不得輕率為之可是我們現在可以看到部分的檢察官在偵判案件的時候都會以"},{"start":5953.587,"end":5971.382,"text":"羈押作為取共的主要工具跟過去的這個虛打成招事實上完全沒有兩樣所以根據2023年我們3月民間團體公布的司法信心民意調查有高達84.7的民眾認為檢察官辦案受政治力的影響"},{"start":5972.463,"end":5994.011,"text":"而您過去也因為在這個有政治氛圍下對證據不足的案件人對人起訴無辜的這個記錄而司法院院長是守護司法正義的最後一道防線如果未來總統或行政院長對您提出政治性的要求時候您是不是能夠承諾拒絕配合堅守司法獨立"},{"start":5995.106,"end":6012.491,"text":"當然我應該遵守就是維持司法堅持司法獨立但是剛剛委員我再強調一遍剛剛委員提到這個案子不是我起訴的所以不是被判無罪我沒有任何這個道歉的意思或是相類似的評論"},{"start":6013.651,"end":6027.18,"text":"至於委員所提到的這幾個案子我也跟委員一樣從報紙上得知一些相關的訊息我對這幾個案子了解非常非常有限"},{"start":6043.491,"end":6067.256,"text":"所以這也是大家非常憤怒的問題那另外呢還有就是要請教您的就是有關廢死的問題因為我看您在您回覆國民黨的問卷當中表示您不支持廢除死刑是嗎是的那您不支持廢除死刑那針對憲判次第八號的判決您的看法咧"},{"start":6070.62,"end":6094.651,"text":"第八號他是認為現在的死刑制度不違憲這一點我支持但是以現在這第八號等同是實質廢死了是相當困難是沒錯相當困難我想請教一下您擔任檢察官近三十年對於這個何義廷的法官必須一致決才能判死在您的實務經驗上有沒有過這樣子的案例何義廷的法官一致決"},{"start":6099.639,"end":6118.984,"text":"一致決我自己的經驗判死刑基本上都是一致決了並不是因為有這個判決因為目前的這個宪判第八號是何義廷就是三審的法官必須要一致決才能判決嗎依您近30年的這個檢察官的一個經歷"},{"start":6119.924,"end":6143.22,"text":"有沒有過這樣子的一個例子有沒有去統計說一審二審三審全部判死刑老師講的以我當檢察官我案子是判了案件我有曾經起訴案件判死刑過所以有還是沒有三審都一致決的案件三審我沒有去統計沒有統計還是不敢回答不是不敢回答那有還是沒有呢因為據我的了解要三審一致決幾乎是難如登天啊"},{"start":6150.084,"end":6165.654,"text":"我相信也沒有一個檢察官有遇過這樣的狀況所以這樣等同是實質廢死所以我很高興聽到您說您不支持廢除死刑可是對於憲判第八號幾乎是等同是實質廢死的這個部分未來如果您擔任司法院長你要怎麼來解決"},{"start":6167.433,"end":6187.42,"text":"我想這個案子已經判決了那憲法法庭的判決他是對人民跟機關都有拘束力的那除非有憲法訴訟法第42條這些規定的要件他可以申請人民政府機關都可以申請重新來"},{"start":6188.4,"end":6205.459,"text":"所以在這邊如果沒有這種狀況我想您不支持廢除死刑跟80%的民意是一樣的那當然對於限判制第八號我們其實是非常的遺憾因為等同是實質廢死那未來呢我想尊重大多數的民意尊重八成的民意"},{"start":6206.019,"end":6229.153,"text":"應該是您將來作為司法院長應該要做的事情那另外還有就是針對賴清德總統的實講賴總統第三講談到的憲政他說五五憲草或中華民國憲法台灣並沒有派員參加而實際上的狀況我相信您很清楚台灣有沒有派員參加沒有什麼我聽不清楚"},{"start":6230.575,"end":6242.843,"text":"我說賴清德總統在第三講的時候有提到憲法的相關問題其中他提到五五憲草或者是中華民國憲法台灣並沒有派員參加"},{"start":6245.56,"end":6263.776,"text":"您知道這個台灣到底有沒有派員參加這點老實講我不了解那對政治人物的好我告訴你台灣曾經派出18名這個及審議會各縣市議員農運會公會代表等這個參加制憲會議所以這個都是有你可以看一下"},{"start":6264.457,"end":6283.571,"text":"也有當時的一個名單所以賴清德總統就是公然說謊而且在誤導國人製造對立那被提名人您對賴清德總統的這種行為有何看法我現在證據告訴你了嗎有 有18個人參加那您對於賴清德總統這種造謠製造對立的行為有什麼看法"},{"start":6285.031,"end":6301.826,"text":"我沒有辦法確認說賴總統是不是明明知道說台灣有派員參加而說沒有這一點我沒有辦法確認所以你的意思是賴總統他自己根本搞不清楚狀況就提出這樣的質疑是這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":6302.726,"end":6327.18,"text":"這個我沒有辦法評論要不然作為一個總統怎麼會在他要針對這個這個什麼團結時講的時候連這個都搞不清楚就公然的這樣子的造謠製造對立所以如果你連回答這樣的勇氣都沒有的話你要怎麼擔任司法院長這回答勇氣的問題這是我不知道他的狀況賴總統錯了就是錯了他就是造謠不是說他知不知道或是他有沒有在事前了解我覺得這個應該都要非常非常"},{"start":6335.807,"end":6341.198,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝徐宇辰委員的詢問謝謝蔡備提名人的說明"},{"start":6361.189,"end":6373.237,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來登記第四位的林黛化委員詢問之後我們將會休息十分鐘然後之後再請王育敏委員詢問現在我們請林黛化委員請詢問好 有請院長提名人麻煩再請蔡佩提名人請 郭敏"},{"start":6393.63,"end":6393.92,"text":"一位好"},{"start":6394.349,"end":6423.904,"text":"本席想針對兩個議題來跟我們院長提名的來做個討論第一個是少年車手成為詐騙集團的主流第二個是法官過勞的問題我們來看這個幾個數據跟報導在2023年的時候已經有這樣的一個報導少年車手世代的誕生詐欺集團裡一句句殘破屍體堆疊的代價詐騙集團是進得去出不來為的就是詐騙集團的永續經營這樣的狀況有沒有得到緩解沒有在"},{"start":6424.204,"end":6447.278,"text":"今年6月的時候的報導少年色詐五年新高六成當車手跟車手頭這個名詞從哪裡來2017年在台灣自然史上相當特殊的一年一種新型的大宗青少年色法的模式竟遭到非正式的命名根據警政署的統計在2017年色詐的集團"},{"start":6448.658,"end":6473.251,"text":"這個招捕的青少年首度飆破萬人而且已經超越各種青少年犯罪形態因此被管稱為少年車手世代的誕生這正是台灣治安的一大隱憂那司法院的統計全國已進入到法院審理的青少年社長的人數除了2017年首度超過一萬人回顧前三年2019到2022年"},{"start":6476.032,"end":6490.827,"text":"這樣每年的涉案人數也在平均9000人以上這樣的青少年好我們再來看這樣的一個詐欺的金流流程那眾所皆知最末端現場取款的都是青少年"},{"start":6491.147,"end":6509.709,"text":"居多的車手好最容易逮捕也風險最大因為機房跟地下會隊都在國外警方是難以查緝未成年擔任車手的趨勢是逐年飆升這也是未來司法院長您應該要拿出更好的策略跟作為"},{"start":6510.67,"end":6533.128,"text":"我們來看前端警政署的打詐遺產表我就追溯今天是7月9號在7月7號禮拜一的時候當天有481件的詐騙受領財產損失當天3億4千萬我就以這個數據逐一年擴大一年的推估481件一天365天就有17萬5千多件這是報案紀錄"},{"start":6538.832,"end":6560.935,"text":"因天的損失3億4千萬那一年乍一年來就有1241億這是本期保守枯竹實質的金額是這個的雙倍以上這對我國國人跟每個家庭都是晴天霹靂而且是難以堪受的打擊好警方這麼的努力那我們來看法院的部分"},{"start":6562.296,"end":6577.09,"text":"這個表是司法院司法業務年報當中取得的以地方法院少年刑事第一審的訴訟案件終結的案子你看三年半前有111年15件112年16件這都終結了113年16件"},{"start":6585.018,"end":6603.609,"text":"今年未過半一到五月三屆這表示什麼意思呢也就是說每年上萬名的色詐行為的青少年真的到了司法院不管是少年法庭或者是地方法院真正被判刑的比例是相當低百分之一"},{"start":6604.009,"end":6609.934,"text":"好我們再來提供前端的警察人員是多麼的認真這是三年半前他們捕捉到車手"},{"start":6626.425,"end":6634.229,"text":"這個少年擔任車手的部分111年685人112年雙倍了1279年113年再雙倍2354年4人再到今年還未過半1到5月已經1192人前5個月已經達到112年前年的"},{"start":6649.798,"end":6665.738,"text":"總年度逮捕的車手的人數的這個數據呈現什麼了詐騙集團非常樂意讓青少年當車手來規避這個責任金三祖在前端認真的查緝實時進入到司法院審判的程序"},{"start":6666.439,"end":6675.33,"text":"青少年的案件卻非常偏少不管是在少年法庭或者是地方法院我這邊要講明的是我不是說要把這些青少年抓起來關"},{"start":6682.279,"end":6701.104,"text":"而是要青少年進入到法院的時候你願意給他武器你的院方要給下面的警察跟檢調單位武器讓他去共出車手的上方的幕後集團是誰但是對於青少年就應該依照青少年的相關的保護原則"},{"start":6702.204,"end":6718.171,"text":"給予符合他的身心專快的矯正而不是要判重刑這個本席要強調但是你要給他能夠法院當中要給檢察官要給警察這樣的一個力量去供出讓這個青少年去供出上面的首腦才是正版"},{"start":6719.151,"end":6742.107,"text":"好 那司法院你如何改善呢司法院還要繼續放縱少年車手成為詐騙集團的人才資料庫嗎好 在這邊我們這個少年事件的處理法本席想要問的 您認為有沒有要修法的必要本席知道少年事件處理法的主管機方是法務不擔"},{"start":6743.288,"end":6763.259,"text":"真的在做疑審的單位決定要不要疑審要不要繼續偵查的單位是法院所以本席要問如果少年法院過度採取少年保護主義原則讓詐騙集團的首腦大量吸收未成年者成為詐騙流程中最關鍵的前方"},{"start":6763.459,"end":6788.268,"text":"封部隊這個就是顯化好我們來看保護主義原則本席是非常認同的但是法律是基於少年親自會成熟避免對少年造成過度的壓力或侵害這是我們應該要去執行的但是如果法院無限上綱少年保護主義原則也使得警方在偵查當中無法迅速追查幕後組織"},{"start":6789.488,"end":6807.306,"text":"本期要講的是這個但是青少年你應該依照青少年不是要重判而是要好好的給予矯正符合他身心狀況的要給予矯正這才是正辦我再次的第二次的強調好那現況是案件移送少年法庭之後少年法庭具有先議權"},{"start":6808.74,"end":6836.326,"text":"所以檢察官既不能介入警方的偵查權也受限無法繼續偵辦就讓詐騙集團爐爐無人之地搜刮台灣人民的財產幫派及犯罪集團利用這些程序的限制吸收了少年從事犯罪警方難以追緝幕後組織只能查獲少年車手等末端人員溯源效果大打折扣院長提名人你怎麼看呢如果你未來擔任院長如何來解決這樣的問題呢"},{"start":6838.966,"end":6858.14,"text":"呃委員剛剛對少年犯涉入詐欺集團的詐騙案件呃只成了非常非常的清楚可能比我還了解那成少共犯這個問題確實是一個很大的問題就是剛如委員講就是說事實上是少年人因為少年犯他不是自己犯罪"},{"start":6858.78,"end":6877.416,"text":"他是跟成年人一起犯罪你告訴我你上任之後你馬上怎麼做這已經是國安議題了也是總統跟國人就算總統沒給他升級到國安議題也是我們全台人民現在最痛苦的一件事情是一點都沒錯那你怎麼做呢你只要告訴我你上任之後你的方法是什麼"},{"start":6878.251,"end":6905.128,"text":"我想這個問題可能會涉及到修法啦但是現在的問題是你涉案的少年你送到少年法院以後那有可能檢察官因為他在偵辦成年犯的案子那這中間有共犯關係那可能要戒掉就是說要把這個少年就是來詢問就是對少年犯也能夠詢問但是現在的問題是檢察官"},{"start":6906.669,"end":6922.202,"text":"因為法律限制的關係少年事件處理法的關係所以可能沒有辦法達到目的您上任之後的一個月內召集所有您所有相關的主管"},{"start":6922.802,"end":6947.335,"text":"跟全國相關的這個法官在你的下面所屬的相關的人跟這個案子有關的相關的主管來討論有沒有修法的必要好嗎一個月內可以嗎與其你在我這邊跟我講說你的看法我覺得你已經是院長你沒有辦法去你當然院長當中你如何讓你的法官去認同這件事情"},{"start":6948.075,"end":6970.184,"text":"這才是你讓你的少年法庭的法官能夠認同這件事情你做一個司法院院長怎麼做啊第一個你的態度認不認爲你擔任司法院長這個是重中之重少年車手成爲詐騙集團的千鋒部隊搜刮我台灣人民的財產這件事情你要你的態度是什麼第二個你的做法是什麼請回答"},{"start":6971.564,"end":6993.034,"text":"這確實是重要問題但是我跟委員報告我現在還沒有上任老師講對司法院的一些業務這個主要是少年家事廳這邊的業務其實我不那麼熟但是我在高檢在任職的時候我曾經聽過同事也跟檢察長討論過這個問題至少你的態度很明確你認為應該責無旁貸的作為優先的處理的業務我想是優先要處理"},{"start":7000.858,"end":7028.077,"text":"好 另外一個議題這個司法改革的核心是法官如何讓優秀的人才願意擔任法官司法體系依靠的是法官依法獨立審判但是法官過勞的問題如何改善 請具體說明法官過勞的問題其實最主要的案件來源是剛剛委員所提到的詐欺案件因為詐欺案件這幾年突然增加那詐欺案件增加這一點"},{"start":7029.353,"end":7043.043,"text":"司法院其實要減少詐欺案件這一點事實上他有他的困難因為他沒有辦法去直接就是我剛剛的提到在口頭報告的時候提到就是說你怎麼減少入口案件量案件是從"},{"start":7044.589,"end":7071.247,"text":"就是檢察官起訴然後送到法院這邊來所以在這個階段我沒有辦法去減少他的案件量就是已經進來我沒有辦法去減少案件量但是有一個問題就是說我也第一個在討論檢討這個問題的時候我也第一項提到就是說從案件的負擔這麼重法官的工作量這麼重當然就是因為人力不夠嘛這才很簡單但是呢"},{"start":7072.108,"end":7093.349,"text":"我們有一個很大的困難就是說我們的總元額法他的規定是非常的嚴格就是因為他不只是處理法官人數的問題他要處理所有公務人員的問題所以他的限制是很大的就是說他限制很高我們盡量去爭取那就法官的人數來講的話那我們會盡力"},{"start":7097.478,"end":7116.056,"text":"希望能夠增援因為在目前的案件量真的是這不是人過人沒辦法所以你認為增加援爾這是你認為要解套的一個良心其中一個辦法包括您在這個詐騙案件量的如何的來減少這件事情你也會來做處理"},{"start":7117.777,"end":7138.054,"text":"是嗎這是兩個您的 案件量減少這個東西我們沒有辦法承諾因為這個社員確實不是社員做得到的三天案件量的減少要仰賴偵查機關要仰賴行政部門來幫忙所以增加員額是你認為其中一個辦法還有呢"},{"start":7141.96,"end":7164.415,"text":"那就是我們現在的案件量的負擔當然就是因為程序他比較冗長他程序比較冗長那另外一個就是他的法官的工作的負擔他有兩個方面第一個他很很長的時間發停花在月卷開庭這樣子的那另外一個就是製作書類那現在的書類現在的判決書動輒上百頁動輒幾十頁"},{"start":7172.982,"end":7183.779,"text":"製作的負擔很重那我們會想辦法來減輕他的文書製作的負擔我想這是還蠻重要的這是第二個方案那還有呢"},{"start":7185.042,"end":7203.47,"text":"剛剛也講到程序的問題看是能夠再精簡另外一個就是看有沒有辦法再補充其他的人力比如說退休的人員我們有沒有辦法以什麼樣的方式請他們可以回來幫忙不管是哪一種忙我們都很歡迎"},{"start":7204.17,"end":7220.144,"text":"那再來就是輔助人力的問題我想法官的人力跟輔助人力的問題現在有一個很大的問題就是比如說書記官現在書記官離朝離世朝非常的多非常可怕就是他現在沒有人願意當書記官為什麼沒有人當書記官因為待遇很少"},{"start":7221.072,"end":7241.823,"text":"然後工作量很多所以這個問題我們也要想辦法看怎麼解決一個書記官的待遇甚至可能比法官助理還要少他是一個有職務保障的一個書記官但是他的待遇其實是就工作量來講是算是相當的微薄那這一點我覺得我們應該來正視這個問題看跟"},{"start":7247.025,"end":7272.132,"text":"還有就這事項嗎第一個增加法官的援額第二個我們的這個文書的業務量如何的減少第三個整個作業的流程整個檢視整個的這個法官審理的流程如何有簡化的可能性第四個就是對輔助人力例如書記官他的薪資所得的提高就這事項您認為這個是能夠解決法官過勞的現況嗎還有呢"},{"start":7275.333,"end":7303.935,"text":"你們努力了但是其他我想我剛講過我就是我也還沒有上任其實對世華運營的業務也不是非常非常的了解但是我們世華運營有很多各事處有很多人才那有很多專業人員他們對這些問題我想他會比我更深入所以我必須要到時候還要請教以及跟他們討論來怎麼樣來解決問題有沒有其他的辦法"},{"start":7304.255,"end":7321.247,"text":"大把關過牢也納入如果能夠擔任院長的話也擔任您重要的就是首先優先要處理的這個業務嗎是的所以本席提到這兩項如果您未來擔任司法院長第一個處理這個詐騙車手詐騙的問題那第二個跟少年犯有關"},{"start":7326.665,"end":7353.954,"text":"對 當然少年犯就青少年擔任車手的一個在這個司法院的體制內當中如何來來減少這樣的如何面對這樣的一個青少年來擔任這個這個詐騙集團的前鋒部隊的議題第二個法官過勞你也是願意擔任願意最優先的來做處理你的業務的首要十大您上任之後的十大業務推動的其中兩項是嗎"},{"start":7355.054,"end":7370.549,"text":"其中兩項 可以講就好好 謝謝理事長謝謝林黛華委員的詢問謝謝蔡備提名人的說明 謝謝好 報告全員委員會我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7974.93,"end":7994.1,"text":"報告全院委員會 我們現在繼續開會 進行委員詢問接下來我們請王育敏委員詢問 林淑芬委員請準備謝謝主席 我們是不是有請蔡提名人麻煩再請蔡提名人委員好"},{"start":8001.388,"end":8016.891,"text":"蔡提名人你好我上午其實有一直在聽你回答委員的一些你的回應那剛剛我聽了你回答林黛樺委員坦白講幫你捏了一把冷汗"},{"start":8017.592,"end":8035.166,"text":"你說你對司法院的業務不是很了解今天你是被提名要擔任司法院院長的人你在巡打的時候說你對司法院的業務不是很了解我想問的是你真的準備好了嗎對不起"},{"start":8039.155,"end":8060.334,"text":"你真的準備好要當司法院院長了嗎你對司法院的業務不了解那你怎麼可以擔任司法院院長呢為什麼賴總統會提名你呢是不是有更多比你更熟悉司法院業務的人更專業的人更適合這個職務呢我想一定有人比我更熟悉司法院的業務那所以你是最適合的人選嗎"},{"start":8066.044,"end":8087.365,"text":"我自己不確定我是不是最適合人選但是我覺得我應該是適當的人選之一因為我想擔任一個重要的職務除了能力跟經驗以外我覺得人品很重要那我自己的評估我自己對自我的評價我覺得是人品是好的"},{"start":8088.035,"end":8117,"text":"人品是不是你人品指的是哪一個部分你其他的人跟副主任我想人品就是最重要的特點是沒有私心沒有為自己的私利去著想就是一個職務我其實我在在總統召見的時候我自己不知道我會被提名董事長院院長所以到現在還不知道是誰推薦你"},{"start":8118.479,"end":8121.305,"text":"其實我不知道我一直很好奇這個過程是政部長他徵詢我的意見"},{"start":8129.571,"end":8148.07,"text":"但是我跟他講說我年紀不小所以其實我一開始我是玩具的但是後來有朋友跟我說有這個機會你就做做看吧但是我想說"},{"start":8151.721,"end":8168.94,"text":"如果能夠多為台灣做一點事情那我覺得如果有這個機會那我願意所以我就接受這個推薦事實上我是自我推薦因為在這個程序上是自我推薦自我推薦這樣子"},{"start":8169.941,"end":8189.992,"text":"所以這我推薦我們不要寫一些資料比如說自傳等等等等那就是我回顧一下我過去的經歷我說因為我只當過檢察官嘛那其他之前其實包括現任的大法官也有檢察官出身的"},{"start":8190.532,"end":8193.914,"text":"我們就來解釋一下你擔任檢察官的時候的一些表現"},{"start":8213.482,"end":8228.955,"text":"剛剛大家特別提到了有關拉法葉案事實上這個陳長文律師就直指你是核心也是主辦但是剛剛你在回答委員的詢問的時候又說起訴不是你"},{"start":8229.696,"end":8256.33,"text":"那我就要具體問你因為當時大家都知道盧恩發檢察總長他受到了上級的命令當時陳水扁總統下令然後他就是施壓要起訴當時他是交代黃世民但是黃世民不從才是你來接手那請問你接手了之後你做了什麼事因為你剛剛迴避說你沒有起訴雷學明等人"},{"start":8257.832,"end":8267.873,"text":"請問那你接手之後你有沒有就是羈押他們我在我剛剛講過就是說這個案子是90年7月起訴的"},{"start":8269.425,"end":8294.626,"text":"90年7月我事實上是不在北檢我問你就是吳仁芳要求黃世明接手那黃世明不從是你接手的你接手之後做了什麼我當時是一個基層的檢察官黃檢察長他時候應該是北檢的檢察長吧我不太確定但是事實上是有其他的學長他們處理這個案子"},{"start":8295.387,"end":8312.877,"text":"那我在90年11月從板橋地檢現在的新北地檢調到台北地檢因為你接手的時候當時裁定這個羈押的時候當時是在你手上嗎"},{"start":8314.626,"end":8324.778,"text":"應該不是應該不是你很多回答都是有點模糊我記憶中應該不是那為什麼陳朝文律師他只指你就是主要的關鍵人"},{"start":8326.172,"end":8350.603,"text":"主要的關鍵我也不曉得為什麼他說主要的關鍵就是因為我被指示他如總長那吃鴨黃甲長然後就是叫我去起訴嘛他原來的意思是這樣但是這完全不是事實那我可以請教你雷學敏相關人的案件你當中扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":8351.704,"end":8354.688,"text":"我扮演的角色我是參加公訴 論告"},{"start":8363.092,"end":8383.3,"text":"所以公訴你是主要的公訴的檢察官對不對公訴其中之一啦 因為起訴的人所以你現在要告訴大家是你不是主責跟你沒有關係不是跟我沒有關係 我不能這樣講因為我參加參與這個公訴就不能跟我講沒有關係事實上是跟我 就是這個案子我是有參與的"},{"start":8385.236,"end":8411.198,"text":"但是這個案件我自己起訴的案件不是這個案子我自己起訴的案件是後來的案子那這個案子最後是被判無罪你對於你自己擔任公訴的檢察官現在看到這個案子被判無罪你當時你有沒有檢討自己在當中所扮演的角色你到底是奉承上命在扮這個角色還是你有積極去追求一些客觀的事實因為現在大家都看到這個"},{"start":8412.499,"end":8433.041,"text":"判例就是當時違反了無罪推定的原則在沒有積極的人證物證情況底下依然要去起訴雷學明等人然後他們也獲得了冤獄的賠償對這個案子你有什麼看法是這點我說明一下就是我剛剛有稍微提一下就是無罪推定是訴訟法的規定每一位被告"},{"start":8433.962,"end":8441.877,"text":"他就是被告被提出告訴也好告發也好他成為被告他事實上必須要受到無罪推定的保護"},{"start":8443.032,"end":8467.243,"text":"那檢察官偵查之後如果認為證據足夠證明他有足夠的犯罪嫌疑有足夠的 suspicion他就要起訴這是一個必須我在問你雷學明的案件你覺得他的人證物證是不是足夠因為法院的判決覺得不足夠我講就是說起訴的決定是其他的檢察官"},{"start":8468.464,"end":8483.574,"text":"我起訴之後要進行公訴因為你也參與這個案子嘛所以我現在是要問你說你現在回過頭來看當時是不是人證物證的確是不充分法院的裁定是有道理的我沒有辦法這樣很肯定這樣講但是我們剛剛講就是說"},{"start":8487.168,"end":8503.843,"text":"所以你當時就是領成長官的意旨然後被交辦不是 完全不是不是嗎不是檢察官起訴的標準跟法官判決有罪的標準是不一樣的也就是說檢察官認為如果說那還是要依照證據委員者吧當然"},{"start":8504.843,"end":8533.256,"text":"所以我在問你那個案子人證物證到底充不充分證明的標準我們可以講是不一樣的就是說我在當檢察官的時候我認為有相當的犯罪的嫌疑夠了我認為可以起訴所以我現在是說你現在回頭過來看這個案子的時候你怎麼評價嗎當法院做出跟你當時的看法不一樣的時候你怎麼評價自己當時這麼積極的對一個無罪的判決的案件我現在不適合發表任何評論了"},{"start":8534.116,"end":8549.46,"text":"這個案子已經過去了現在目前還有一部分的案件犯罪所得的追索現在還在進行在歐洲還有一些地方在其他在加勒比亞當時起訴的決定不是我做的"},{"start":8556.403,"end":8582.715,"text":"起訴的決定不是我做的所以呢蔡平民人我覺得你在回答上面遇到對你有利的你會承認是自己遇到對你不利的你就說不是你我覺得這樣一個態度好像就是不是在一件事情上這樣被檢視起來就會覺得你會有意另外一個我要問你的是你當時擔任法務部國兩司司長的時候呢有發生一件陳同佳"},{"start":8583.575,"end":8609.875,"text":"殺害女友的很重大的命案當時台灣人民也非常的憤怒覺得陳同佳應該要受台灣的刑事處罰但是這件事情陳同佳他在香港他是另外一個案子他服役完出獄之後他要來台灣自首當時誰擋了陳同佳的投案之路你當時司法務部國兩司的司長"},{"start":8610.675,"end":8633.384,"text":"在這件事情上你的態度跟角色又是什麼我基本的看法是被告如果要主動來投案那我覺得是不需要透過司法互助的途徑的也就是說他要來投案基本上他是可以來那當時是誰阻擋了這個案子因為他是一個殺人案件"},{"start":8634.346,"end":8655.753,"text":"他是一個殺人案件他本身因為他已經有殺人的之前的事實他事實上有些安全的疑慮那當時呢要去當時的政府包括法務部包括警政署他們認為說如果陳同佳如果是陳同佳要來投案"},{"start":8658.43,"end":8681.818,"text":"應該有人去陪同就是說戒護因為他要坐飛機來在飛機上事實上有可能有安全的餘力當時港方有人陪同啊所以呢他們就派人去香港那有跟香港當局溝通說能不能把陳同佳送到飛機上比如說送到登機門"},{"start":8683.018,"end":8689.104,"text":"由台灣的檢察人員去借物我只是要問你你當時是國兩司的司長你又擔任過檢察官照道理來講你對一個殺人犯你應該是會主張要緊急來偵辦當時的立場是這樣子你有沒有去說服你的長官"},{"start":8703.904,"end":8717.157,"text":"我盡量 我有盡力說服啦你當時是這樣的立場是不是是 是這樣的立場所以最後你沒有說服你的長官最後還是這件個案到現在還是完全沒有辦法讓陳同佳逍遙法外不是那麼順暢"},{"start":8721.901,"end":8748.372,"text":"這個是我們看到的情況另外一個呢你在被提名的記者會上面這個蕭副總統呢他指示提名蔡秋名是為了提升國安案件的專業能量確保國家安全所以他指示然後呢你就很快的回應你說提升國安案件專業能量是任內的首要任務但是在今天你的書面報告這個"},{"start":8750.538,"end":8770.963,"text":"案件專業能量沒有在你的重點任務裡面你直接把它標示出來我要問的是你當時是因為記者會去附和蕭副總統的話還是你是真心的認為你來擔任司法院的院長你是要完成提升國安案件的專業能量"},{"start":8773.438,"end":8800.621,"text":"其實我現在有點忘記我沒有講說提案提升國安的媒體是怎麼登我我不太確定你可以看一下我的PPT就是是我的上任的首要業務這點我不確定這點我沒有這樣講這點我不確定但是我想國安問題在台灣現在目前我覺得相當的是一個嚴重的問題那很多國民都引以為憂了作為一個國民我覺得國安問題是重要的"},{"start":8801.331,"end":8822.096,"text":"那是不是你的首要任務我現在在問你一遍你可以澄清國安問題基本上不是大法官的工作的內容因為他是要做憲法法庭的審判但是如果在司法院長的職務裡面他事實上會跟這個問題有點關係"},{"start":8823.836,"end":8847.784,"text":"就是因為在目前還有國安專題就是你上任之後提升國安案件專業能量是不是你的首要任務我不能講說這是我的首要任務我想還有更直接的一個社團院長要做的事情所以你當時在記者會是為了呼應蕭副總統所以就講出這樣的話沒有這個意思"},{"start":8848.544,"end":8873.212,"text":"沒有這個意思但你講出了這樣的話我到底有沒有講這個話我們再確認一下我不算確定有或者是沒有但是我這個應該不是我的意思不是你的意思你講的但是不是你的意思好這個那目前為止發現蔡提名有一個問題就是說你講過的話呢你都會說好像不是你的意思包括其實你"},{"start":8873.812,"end":8889.759,"text":"也講過一段話在台灣法官比較靜態檢察官比較動態因此未來如果有機會讓兩個工作有一段時間互相交換接觸增加視野與經歷可能會有益法官的身心健康"},{"start":8891.53,"end":8913.828,"text":"這段話是不是你講的這段話是我講的但是我講這段話是我參考歐洲的一些實務就是特別是德國因為他們法官跟檢察官之間的交流非常的頻繁但是我並沒有聽德國的同事講說因為檢察官跟法官之間的交流讓檢審"},{"start":8916.618,"end":8943.045,"text":"審檢不分或者是說那我就問你你講這段話未來你擔任司法院院長你是不是要去推動這項制度讓這一個檢察官跟法官兩個工作可以有一段時間互相來交換你要不要推動這個要看實際的需要啦就是這種事情就是我剛剛提到的就是您一剛開始提到我就說我對司法院的業務比較不了解其中的一點"},{"start":8944.105,"end":8960.387,"text":"我想我有這樣子的這個當然是一個當時的一個想法提名人我提醒你你在回答徐宇峥委員的時候你的態度是說你思慮不周所以你道歉了"},{"start":8960.948,"end":8988.644,"text":"那你在回答我的時候看起來態度又不一樣我覺得這個前後一致性我們對於一個司法院院長的信任度也是很重要因為這樣子看不出你基本的原則跟立場是什麼接下來我要問的是我們現行的羈押制度有沒有被濫用的問題押人取共你覺得這個在現行的檢察官的作為上面如果有人押人取共你贊不贊成"},{"start":8990.728,"end":9019.219,"text":"如果真正是押人提供我當然不贊成真的不贊成嗎但是現行我們看到目前有一些檢察官在做法上面他在證據不充分的情況底下他就使用羈押的手段或者是一再延押的手段想要達成他的調查的目的請問這個我們相關的四字號的解釋跟行送法的相關的規定你認為這樣的一個做法有沒有違法"},{"start":9020.863,"end":9040.964,"text":"這個有沒有違法要看個案就是押忍這件事情我想肯定是很多羈押的案件但是講到為什麼會羈押我想他有法定的理由那我如果不去了解這些事實的狀況那我就隨便做評論我覺得事實不負責任"},{"start":9041.698,"end":9069.318,"text":"好 這一個部分也是現在讓民眾覺得害怕的問題因為如果是這種押忍取共事實上已經是侵害人權了那未來你要擔任是司法院的院長我想保障人權是司法院非常重要的一個責任跟角色這個部分我們現在看到的是現行的法院有很多當檢察官提出羈押的時候法院的審理好像都是照單全收"},{"start":9070.018,"end":9089.594,"text":"並沒有在審理上面真正的好好認真的再去做一些適度的研判這個如果將來沒有機會擔任司法院院長這個部分應該是要好好檢討一下另外一個就是有關於這個行政跟司法之間的立法之間的衝突"},{"start":9090.515,"end":9110.549,"text":"你曾經說過中央機關有法律及政治面挑戰我認為適合由司法院來解決所以代表未來你如果擔任司法院院長的時候你會更大幅的去受理有關於行政跟立法之間的爭議是這樣子嗎你有講過這段話"},{"start":9112.128,"end":9133.083,"text":"我想這個是憲法法庭的任務之一就是說如果有機關之間的職權的爭議的話他們是可以提申請到由憲法法庭來解決那這個是一個被動的受理因為說法官的立場就是說他是不告不理"},{"start":9133.863,"end":9142.911,"text":"所以他不能是直接說來你們的正義我來解決不會有這樣的事情就是說他如果有這樣的案件那麼就依法處理"},{"start":9144.239,"end":9171.508,"text":"我們可以看到過去憲法法庭事實上在針對一些不受理的高度爭議的申請案這個也是很常見的包括2016年監察院的不當黨產條例是不受理的2018年立法院的前瞻的違憲疑慮也不受理2022年林黛嬅提的這個也不受理2024年賴香林勞保基金違憲疑慮也是不受理"},{"start":9172.088,"end":9201.256,"text":"但是如果未來的這個憲法法庭要受理的是屬於行政跟立法之間的衝突的話那等於是把憲法法庭自己也捲入了一些政治的紛爭當中那我們希望台灣的司法其實是真正可以是超然獨立的那在受理跟不受理的這些標準我覺得未來如果你有機會擔任司法院院長這個真的是要好好思考清楚的"},{"start":9201.877,"end":9212.257,"text":"絕對不是因為是當權好 謝謝王玉敏委員的詢問也謝謝蔡備提名人的說明"},{"start":9230.061,"end":9233.823,"text":"好謝謝接下來我們請林淑芬委員請詢問好謝謝院長是不是請蔡提名人麻煩蔡提名人林委員好被提名的人"},{"start":9261.307,"end":9268.171,"text":"這樣子說好了你知道這個橋頭地院有一個法官叫石育恩這一個個案你有印象嗎那這樣講好了法官幫詐騙集團藏錢這個個案你有印象嗎"},{"start":9279.181,"end":9293.428,"text":"我好像在媒體上有看到好像你是被提名人了然後你對這樣的個案有什麼樣的看法聽起來你好像對細節並不是很清楚這樣子說好了"},{"start":9295.714,"end":9320.482,"text":"他被地檢署偵辦律師鄭宏威擔任律師擔任詐騙集團的軍師的時候他發現有16個律師串聯在一起成為一個群組幫詐騙集團到各地檢署還有到各法院去替詐騙集團監控招待的車手更離譜的是橋樓地院的法官石育恩還有"},{"start":9320.942,"end":9339.107,"text":"桃園地檢署的檢察官你們以前的這個地檢署的系統吳雅芝也捲入而且詐騙集團還把錢藏在法院石玉恩這個法官還揪其他的法官一起買房子要去洗錢揪房 揪團買房洗錢"},{"start":9344.309,"end":9372.347,"text":"然後呢在這個過程被案發東窗事發了以後呢石玉恩還開著價值350萬的保時捷跑車趕快跑到地方法院把錢搬走然後被逮然後看守所裡面我現在問你你知道看守所裡面羈押的過去以前一半以上都是酒駕現在一半以上都是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":9373.814,"end":9379.682,"text":"你知道嗎 看收索你檢查系統 你不知道嗎你看收索裡面關的一半以上都是詐騙集團的車手"},{"start":9385.191,"end":9413.471,"text":"是 你現在才 你有接地氣嗎我現在很擔心耶我現在要跟你講這件事情是因為詐騙問題很嚴重啊然後呢 跟他們關在一起的人出來描述給我的朋友聽的他說 這些年輕的車手問他們出去以後會不會想再從事這個詐騙的工作他們說 會為什麼會 你知道嗎啊 被提名人你知道嗎 猜猜看"},{"start":9416.411,"end":9441.487,"text":"因為判了不重 因為是判了太輕判了太輕不是問題 他們都認罪在詐騙集團被抓到 這些車手都認罪關了以後還要出來當詐騙的原因是因為外面領三萬五萬的薪水 太少了在外面隨便當車手 吃香喝辣 收入豐沃"},{"start":9443.377,"end":9465.367,"text":"我現在要說的不是要說這位車手喔我現在要說的是 把瓜給檢測瓜有錢能使鬼推磨這個問題啦 因為你是被提名人而且檢查系統更嚴重 你有什麼看法你對制度面的防弊 你有什麼看法你敢不敢說我們聽一下"},{"start":9469.15,"end":9484.059,"text":"這是一個困難的問題第一個我對案件的細節其實不瞭解我沒有在說案件我現在在說對於檢察官法官無法抗拒誘惑因為檢察官心碎一個月六千一個月應該有十萬塊以上十萬塊以上法官一個月心碎六千"},{"start":9494.637,"end":9496.858,"text":"我現在要跟你說的意思是詐騙集團青菜和椰子都比這個還多"},{"start":9502.984,"end":9527.252,"text":"大家在外面吃香喝辣檢察官法官啦 抗拒誘惑難很多 但是絕大多數還是正派的我現在問你是 你要來做議定 被提名了你也 總統跟你說 我跟你交提名你好不好 你也說好 我勇於認識 我不會啊 我要問你啊 這要安裝改革 要安裝防備我是要問你這個啦"},{"start":9532.299,"end":9554.715,"text":"現在你知道對人民來說當警察、檢察官、法官抓鬼的人被鬼抓了你叫人民情何以堪啊你讓我們這些人民要叫誰來保護啊所以你的司法最後一道防線也瓦解了你覺得這個事情有多嚴重你有想過嗎如同剛剛委員提過的是"},{"start":9561.96,"end":9579.21,"text":"大部分的法官跟檢察官其實我現在要問你怎麼管理房幣啦不要去說那大部分那不能讓老鼠屎壞了一鍋粥啊那就要靠司法行政體系啊那我現在就是正在問你司法行政體系你要怎麼管理和房幣"},{"start":9581.756,"end":9597.884,"text":"法官法在100年制定現在74條法官的職務評定只有良好跟不良好 兩種你知道法官法施行以前它的考積有三等"},{"start":9598.644,"end":9616.673,"text":"法官法施行以後 甲等乙等的都變成良好 丙等的才叫做不良好你知道現在的法官法之下你有多少法官被評定為不良好的比例有多高你知道嗎我只知道我相當低"},{"start":9622.523,"end":9638.024,"text":"第一道不成樣子啦 大家法官喔沒有棒子啦司法改革我們的法官法制定以後現在司法形象變得雪上加霜 惡名昭彰"},{"start":9639.967,"end":9657.704,"text":"現在不是司法獨立審判 讓這一種塑形不良 違法亂作的法官變成他們的天堂然後破壞司法形象 連累政派的法官然後才有政客表演的空間"},{"start":9659.205,"end":9675.875,"text":"政客表演前幾天的立法院在同櫃法庭直播事實上是一個一二審沒有直播原則都不直播但是因為太多人民受到法官權力上的侵害所以人民才會認為說要公開透明"},{"start":9678.797,"end":9693.152,"text":"都是因為整個司法改革的過程司法行政體系獨執司法的行政體系不彰化棒子也沒有有職務監督的體制也不行使"},{"start":9694.113,"end":9715.641,"text":"所以將敗壞司法形象才會讓政客到立法院來表演一個原則都不會直播的假直播只有圖利政治人物貪賭案件一定要直播的這一種假直播政治人物才有的司法特權的假直播"},{"start":9716.821,"end":9738.98,"text":"只有這一種現在人民為什麼會這種高度期待誤以為立法院是真直播因為 都是因為司法行政體系司法的職務監督公這個司校不好不好這樣你知道嗎你有什麼看法"},{"start":9740.237,"end":9761.712,"text":"我想司法院有一個機構我想很清楚是懲戒法院懲戒法院在司法裡面你說懲戒法院懲戒的對象是所有的公務人員我現在說的是你自己司法行政人員的體系你要怎麼改不要跟我說懲戒法院"},{"start":9763.473,"end":9772.664,"text":"您司法院內部的把關機制是哪個委員會我們裡面有自立委員會還有審議委員會人審會啦 人審會啦"},{"start":9779.892,"end":9799.394,"text":"所以違反這個法官法三十條的才送外部的評鑑委員會法官評鑑委員會啊你如果大家都情節不重大情節重大你也跟他說情節不重大然後要送評鑑委員會都送人審會"},{"start":9801.462,"end":9814.49,"text":"人審會都口頭告誡 書面告誡有好嗎 敢不有好 沒好啦連送法官評鑑的委員會的評鑑案件也輕輕放下"},{"start":9819.482,"end":9833.692,"text":"最高行政法院吳東都以前在112年10月25就任的時候他表示法院院長事後看法官的裁判書事後判決之後"},{"start":9835.053,"end":9859.522,"text":"沒有介入司法喔現在一直在看法官的裁判書不僅是權限更是院長的責任義務所以他說任內的工作重點之一就是要落實事後沿越法官裁判書的工作為什麼他要沿越法官的裁判書為什麼我想還是有一定監督的必要"},{"start":9865.472,"end":9866.773,"text":"他幹什麼 他要幹什麼你是不是認同你認不認同現在再來 你知道庭長 庭長 審判長他們的分案量是減少的 你知道嗎他們為什麼要減少他們的分案量要叫他們做什麼 你知道嗎"},{"start":9888.724,"end":9900.739,"text":"我想是主要是協助審查法官所做的應該是裁判的書類我不會說啦 是要讓他們去做職務監督啦職務監督 這個是法律有據的啦"},{"start":9908.194,"end":9936.053,"text":"法官法第19條規定法官與其獨立審判不受影響的限度內受職務監督職務監督包括制止法官違法行使職權糾正法官不當言行及督促法官依法迅速執行職務第20條規定各級法院院長當法官發生不當言行或違私行使職權各級法院院長應善盡其職務監督之"},{"start":9937.934,"end":9958.263,"text":"以亡羊補牢 避免法官失去其職務分際及自律能力十九條二十條法律都授權給你 所以我才說我們現在沒有所謂的這個考機把它改成全部都只有良好跟不良好"},{"start":9959.568,"end":9984.426,"text":"不良好的有夠少 但是要搭配職務監督給你庭長 給你審判長 給你院長都讓你們減少分量 分案量要讓你去做職務監督可是呢 大家都沒人要做派人庭長 審判長支持一個頭銜這都拿外面拿出來社交當工具啦"},{"start":9985.62,"end":9988.448,"text":"社交工具 來 這個庭長要來跟我們吃飯這個審判長要來跟我們吃飯 吃得很爽"},{"start":9993.336,"end":10012.504,"text":"但是呢 他們只想要享受這一個頭銜這個頭銜的權利出嫁出去都很好用的但是 賦予這個頭銜的責任沒有人要承擔所以停頓 先破頓不是大家 現在大家都在擔心先掛 做停頓啊 審判長 庭長吃很硬的啊 硬的很臭的啊人家請他們吃飯啊"},{"start":10020.527,"end":10028.106,"text":"但是呢 職務監督沒有人要去做現在變成怎樣失去了平衡的法官"},{"start":10029.315,"end":10058.822,"text":"司法制度沒有蘿蔔棒子蘿蔔薪水這麼低詐騙集團一誘惑就跑了棒子沒人要做派人所以我現在再問你一次吳東都院長他說司法判決後看司法看法官的裁判書不僅是權限而且還是院長的責任義務你同不同意我同意同意"},{"start":10063.334,"end":10086.54,"text":"法官法第19條 還有法官法第35條法官評鑑委員會司法院組成的你如果送 其實都是法官和法官相互包庇可以要送評鑑委員會的 都送人審會啦然後評鑑委員會又輕輕放下在這種過程裡面喔 大家都不要做壞人"},{"start":10088.375,"end":10109.931,"text":"評鑑委員會法官法第35條第6項有一個規定法官評鑑委員會為確定行為模式的必要得就未經請求的違實情勢予以調查和審議你選一個案件 各案列在評鑑委員會但是為什麼我們要做這個法官法第35條第6項的這一個立法我剛才說這個要立法要從何而來 你知道嗎"},{"start":10115.486,"end":10120.049,"text":"你要做什麼 你一定發光發不光你賠不開 沒關係我告訴你就是說不當行為你這個發光已經人審會包庇不住了重大到要到評鑑委員會來了好 你這個行為是無所謂無中的 偶爾為之的"},{"start":10138.504,"end":10151.399,"text":"還是你這樣的審理案子的行為模式是一個行為模式如果是一個行為模式我們現在要說受害者絕對不會是只有一個不會是只有兩個很多啦"},{"start":10155.219,"end":10172.229,"text":"所以有問題的法官通常都是慣行慣犯行為模式都一樣的但是呢法官法第35條第6條評鑑的時候可以就沒有人來請託把他過去所有的審理"},{"start":10173.373,"end":10197.961,"text":"看他的狀況有沒有為師都一併調查和審議沒人要做 沒人要做你如果要來做 我不知道說因為你來自檢查體系你愛這個不當 訴刑不良的法官你愛他們會受罰 但是我要跟你說法官的不當行為2023年10月16號士林地方法院法官蘇錦秀"},{"start":10199.161,"end":10222.758,"text":"在法官論壇 法官論壇他變成只能對外放話了接著他擔任陪席法官的時候有何義廷三名法官共同評議以後結果這個庭長就曉白了人三個人各標管2比1庭長卻拒絕在審判書上簽名因為他是一個的那一個少數"},{"start":10224.319,"end":10242.719,"text":"違反民事訴訟法第227條前項 違判決的法官應於判決書內簽名 以及法院組織法第105條他違反了這樣的規定 這麼重大 他不是送評鑑委員會他送人審會啦 人審會認為沒有違失啦"},{"start":10246.375,"end":10260.181,"text":"這一個庭長還威脅書記官不准公告判決主文因為他的個人看法跟兩個人的看法不一樣所以導致宣判當日沒有辦法依法公告主文"},{"start":10261.684,"end":10262.024,"text":"送人審會啦 2023年11月7號"},{"start":10295.901,"end":10305.927,"text":"他還把自己簽名簽在裁判長他在言辭辯論的筆錄當中簽名自己是裁判長都很明顯違法程序面 民事訴訟法規定這個法官不是視若無睹 視為"},{"start":10314.415,"end":10330.21,"text":"是不當一回事 看不在眼裡 視法律如無物喔要行依法判決的法官 把法律踩在腳底下多得很啦 多得很啦 這種不孝的法官喔 很多"},{"start":10331.391,"end":10356.289,"text":"明顯違法不安全 我再講一下 你聽啊2023年11月14日司法院人事處公布了人審會的決議針對新北地方法院民事庭裡昭榮法官在審理過程當中沒有向當事人說明合意 你們兩個如果合意停止訴訟 何蓋停止了所產生的法律效果沒有提醒書記官要注意後續的聯繫"},{"start":10357.57,"end":10386.41,"text":"導致當事人的案件被視為撤回起訴影響訴訟權益重大還有2021年3月苗栗地方法官周靜妮對當事人動以私刑要受年當庭掌嘴下跪還欺負社工還揚言要在法院放火這種的 以這個個案監察院也糾正過監察院糾正我念不念你聽"},{"start":10389.152,"end":10404.284,"text":"監察院糾正周敬禮法官的違法行為發現周敬禮法官從104年開始就出現無故嚴當羈押案件審理以及辦案瑕疵等狀況未能發揮預防功效"},{"start":10404.924,"end":10405.424,"text":"現在要說的就是說"},{"start":10435.86,"end":10451.623,"text":"這裡做議定委 做庭定委都沒有人在行使職務監督這裡換我不肖的法官 無法無天繼續敗壞司法的形象這裡是問題這裡有立法院整天在這裡假改革所以院長責任重不重大這是非常要緊的事"},{"start":10463.754,"end":10468.737,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人他被提名人請謝謝您謝謝"},{"start":10489.482,"end":10514.589,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們登記最後一位賴世保委員請詢問謝謝主席韓院長以及各位先進大家早安 大家好這個有請我們的司保院長被提名人蔡先生麻煩再請再被提名人"},{"start":10524.777,"end":10545.498,"text":"蔡貝廷銘這個我不知道怎麼稱呼你你當過主任檢察官我就姑且因為你還沒當院長嘛還有我們的同意嘛我就稱呼你蔡主任好了蔡主任我想我們做任何事情我們看一個人那個英文有一句話叫Track Rake"},{"start":10546.889,"end":10572.297,"text":"很重要 check record 你知道嗎你過去的履歷啦你做的一些的事情 check record你的 check record 就是地檢署的主任檢察官高檢的主任檢察官你不覺得你來當司法院長底子有點薄嗎太薄啦 太薄你感覺怎麼樣"},{"start":10574.346,"end":10601.232,"text":"你看以前的院長是誰翁越生賴英照賴浩敏現在的許中立我對他也有一點意見啦是就這個處理事件的事情有一件可是好歹許中立是台大的教授你呢就是單抄一句從頭到尾就是"},{"start":10603.256,"end":10627.811,"text":"這個檢察署的主任檢察官底子深版很薄啦我都高度質疑喔這個賴總統提名你喔有點想把你拿來當炮灰準備被封殺的然後再激起朝野對抗就變這樣了我這樣講話你可以接受嗎"},{"start":10629.365,"end":10647.863,"text":"這個我沒辦法評論這件事情我沒辦法評論沒辦法接受齁那我另外告訴你你會比較喜歡聽到的說不定你不喜歡聽到那我就告訴你為什麼你被提名原因之一因為賴清德當立委的時候"},{"start":10649.209,"end":10658.315,"text":"他去檢舉指控2005年的時候檢舉指控雷學敏收賄2000萬美金檢察官起訴第一個檢察官起訴是誰盧仁發第二個檢察官是誰就是蔡秋明就是閣下"},{"start":10674.985,"end":10686.414,"text":"你先不要講喔你先不要講你就是盲從這個是誰寫的這個是陳昌文我們的法界"},{"start":10688.001,"end":10713.866,"text":"大佬寫的你就是盧仁發他這樣寫喔盧仁發濫權開端蔡秋敏盲從我要講這個字盲從跟著起訴結果呢歷經9年被判無罪被判無罪還要陪雷學敏將軍結果你現在到現在為止你是"},{"start":10718.502,"end":10747.791,"text":"並沒有受刑法125條濫權追訴罪的罪責所以你沒有被追責 照理講你要被追責啊你濫訴啊判了9年 他無罪 報告委員 這個案子我剛已經講了第三次 這個案子不是我起訴的無罪嘛 反而他是無罪的嘛 到現在無罪嘛 雷先生無罪啊你是起訴檢察官之一啊我不是起訴檢察官之一"},{"start":10748.319,"end":10749.6,"text":"前面有委員提到的 我就長話短說"},{"start":10768.618,"end":10785.583,"text":"所以如果不是我第一個講的情況來這裡當炮灰那是第二個情況他感恩戴德因為你抓到他的心他要追究雷學敏你抓到他的心所以提名你這個你還有話講嗎這個我要解釋的就是說"},{"start":10795.456,"end":10806.749,"text":"雷先生這個案子我不是起訴檢察官所以沒有什麼報答之類的你有沒有簽字有沒有簽字簽字簽字啦你有簽字嗎我當時人不在台北地檢我怎麼簽字呢"},{"start":10815.282,"end":10836.098,"text":"所以跟你沒有關係?不是跟我沒有關係,但是這個案子我就不是起訴檢察官啊不好意思,你是什麼?辦你什麼角色?這個案子後來在公訴的時候,審判的時候我有參與立庭就是參與公訴活動是嗎?所以你有參與嗎?怎麼沒有參與?不然陳昌文不會冤枉你嗎?陳律師有點搞錯啦,有點搞錯"},{"start":10837.901,"end":10842.803,"text":"我跟妳談這個廢死的問題憲法法庭做出一字決的實質廢死老實講全台灣的老百姓反彈之大是非常的憤怒"},{"start":10866.909,"end":10893.763,"text":"老百姓85%是反廢死的結果因為民進黨政府他追求所謂的進步價值他跟著歐盟跑所以就要推動廢死但是這個大法官的一個憲法法庭很厲害喔他知道民意在這裡給你空空你愛好你"},{"start":10895.39,"end":10916.201,"text":"所以他說核心可是你要判死刑每一審都要判死刑極有不可能啊所以這是實時廢時老百姓對這個事情到現在為止是不能夠放過這一群的大法官的憲法法庭的解釋這個你要不要表示你的意見"},{"start":10919.522,"end":10941.403,"text":"一三憲判第八號這個判決事實上是肯定死刑的存在他並沒有否定這個死刑等於沒有了他那個大佛跟四憲之後等於沒有了是的困難度會比較高等於沒有了等於台灣現在沒有死刑了"},{"start":10943.093,"end":10960.02,"text":"不能這樣推 我想這個不相等跟廢除死刑是不一樣的辭職廢死 我要講辭職廢死所以老百姓就會想啊 這個司法院啊司法院啊 老實講 已經變成 被內閣化了我給你舉例啊 注意看啊2023年 司法官學院的院長沒有經過遴選後 行政院拍板"},{"start":10973.861,"end":10999.451,"text":"國事會議改革消極應對無力主導2023到2024檢查一體的爭議默許行政體系掌控檢察權所以基本上來講你變成已經淪為總統府總統的一個司法局等一下我再跟你講為什麼現在可以看得到"},{"start":11000.826,"end":11025.243,"text":"賴清德總統為什麼要發動大罷免他現在就是兼總統權 行政權 監察權 考試權 司法權 媒體權就獨獨的缺了一個立法權所以為什麼他非得搞大罷免要把我們都罷掉 希望拿到立法權就區權合一啊"},{"start":11026.779,"end":11052.272,"text":"齊全合一就超級大總統簡稱皇帝這樣他要做這個事情你告訴我你的回答對我要不要投你統一票很重要喔雖然我對你諸多批評我不見得一定否定你喔我這個五十五十喔看你表現啊 盡你表現啊這個你要說"},{"start":11053.66,"end":11068.749,"text":"你如何外界已經認為司法院已經淪陷了 徹底淪陷了不再中立不再獨立就是內閣化就是內閣化 內閣的一環何其悲哀你如果當院長如何匡正這個事情關於政治解讀的事情我不方便評論"},{"start":11077.764,"end":11097.358,"text":"我的理解司法院不是總統的司法局我的理解是這樣憲法法庭還是能夠維持獨立審判獨立審判的空間這是我的認知 謝謝我們來看我們來看那個萊豬的視線就好了萊豬的視線萊豬的視線"},{"start":11109.467,"end":11135.647,"text":"這個很清楚的萊豬的失陷案地方政府想要說你中央規定我地方政府嚴格一點為什麼因為中央說不可以啊這個案子最赤裸裸的大法官徹底向當權者跪下來投降最好的例子"},{"start":11137.998,"end":11167.115,"text":"各地方政府為了他的老百姓健康我嚴格一點為什麼不可以我只有標示說這有來致還是沒有來致 不可以為什麼說不可以因為美國說不可以美國爸爸說不可以所以中央政府就指定 不可以然後就去釋憲 釋憲大法官完全跟行政部門一樣我告訴你啊我為什麼說你們已經變成司法局"},{"start":11168.637,"end":11195.276,"text":"從蔡英文當總統之後所有的視線全部都是民進黨要的民進黨不要的一個都不會過現在為止一樣我們立法院立了法我們代表人民我們的民力是百分之百請問你後面有幾票你沒有民力基礎就是總統提名你我有民力基礎我有民力基礎"},{"start":11196.397,"end":11225.272,"text":"我文山區南中正選出來的立委我們加寫的名利是百分之百然後呢最少我們過半通過了法律這個行政院不要了賴清德不要了就交給你們 你們就把他封殺誰看到這個事情好像拳擊賽一個擂台裡面行政司法行政立法在那裡大家在那裡彼此的struggling然後"},{"start":11226.499,"end":11252.212,"text":"旁邊裁判就是你們你幫一邊啊 幫行政啊阿打一啊現在叫阿打一啊所有行政院不要的案子通通丟給你們你們通通做的解釋都是跟行政部門一模一樣這不是司法局 什麼才是司法局何其悲哀啊我講到現在為止蔡這個主任你都沒辦法反駁我"},{"start":11253.206,"end":11274.188,"text":"我都講事實I'm talking fact我想事實我能不能稍微回應一下我想司法權確實不是民選的司法人員都不是民選那民選他沒有民意基礎這確實但是不民選有不民選的好處就是說他並沒有"},{"start":11275.348,"end":11288.003,"text":"黨派的利益 因為民選他有黨派所以呢 你們都有啊 結果都有啊司法權本來就有抗多數的這樣的特性這個叫做 counter majority"},{"start":11288.342,"end":11316.756,"text":"那這個在美國的一個學者你們不是抗多數是抗人民啊你們解釋一下是抗人民啊我們是人民選出來的我們就立出來的法律你們要把我們推翻你們是抗人民啊立法委員是有民意基礎是沒錯的當然是啊所以你們否定我們對不對這個行政院喔他的權利喔打一個巴掌過來呼籲然後呢還不夠輸了你們再來一個巴掌"},{"start":11317.469,"end":11329.802,"text":"如果大法官用選的那就更嚴重了好在大法官不是用選的沈政軍你剛說什麼我說大法官不是用選的啦因為選的他要對選民負責他就有政治立場"},{"start":11330.865,"end":11356.561,"text":"他不能有政治立場他提名有沒有良心啊他提名有沒有為了台灣這個社會現在全部綠化 綠油油的一片所以當然解釋的結果就是全部的綠化當然是一個司法局啊怎麼會司法院呢是不是 然後我們再看啊你們做的結果 你們做的一個解釋先是憲法法庭"},{"start":11358.186,"end":11387.615,"text":"跟民意差很多 沒有辦法推翻你你們說 哇 你們就是憲法 你們最大你們是神 奇怪 老百姓咧我們不是所有的 Everything我們所有的一切都為人民了人民的意思 人民最大人民可以用公投來推翻你們的解釋文可以吧最低的 我們最低的一點點的請求期待"},{"start":11388.993,"end":11393.015,"text":"人民用公投的一個結果來推翻我們大法官的這個憲法法庭的解釋力這個問題算是蠻有趣的問題不是有趣 還講有趣當然是很嚴肅的問題 我意思就是說所謂有趣的問題 意思就是說它是值得探討"},{"start":11413.604,"end":11429.735,"text":"但是現在目前由大院所訂的憲法訴訟法裡面,能夠成為憲法法庭審理的案件,它有明文的規定,規定得很清楚。"},{"start":11431.716,"end":11445.241,"text":"那其中並沒有包括說這個大法官會議的大法官憲法法庭的那個判決可以作為公投的標的沒有這樣規定我們公投項目加一個憲法法庭的解釋"},{"start":11450.56,"end":11476.58,"text":"解釋結果我們加一條就好了條問題在你因為你想當院長的你的態度很重要白德惠我剛才話沒講完一開頭沒講完你對於廢死的態度是什麼廢死的態度你慢慢回答仔細回答廢死的態度我想我剛剛已經提過就是我個人並不贊成廢死不贊成廢死那我有我的原因"},{"start":11477.244,"end":11481.407,"text":"來 我再給你看一張賴總統執政司法改革的表現民眾滿意三十趴不滿意五十倍趴差有夠多"},{"start":11494.909,"end":11513.991,"text":"就是我講的啊因為現在司法院不再是司法院現在司法院就是司法局可悲自治真的悲哀了因為都從民進黨執政以後到現在為止所有憲法法庭所做的解釋全部"},{"start":11516.127,"end":11531.58,"text":"執政黨都是他們贏的啊在野黨一次都沒有贏過就很清楚啊所以只要我們現在立了法韓運長主廚這麼辛苦你看到我都替他這麼辛苦這麼聰明的一個人在這裡"},{"start":11533.578,"end":11547.832,"text":"努力老半天 案子過了到你們那裡就宰掉了就宰掉啦我們一直想這個心很痛耶台灣是什麼社會啊為什麼立法院 人民選舉院立法院我立的法"},{"start":11549.448,"end":11578.455,"text":"通過了 主席的垂直一敲欸 還不算欸 全世界都算了垂直一敲就算了 不是喔就當媽爹 後面在那裡喔 大法官在那裡他說 NO 不可以的 不可以的很悲哀喔這個 蔡主任到現在為止我沒有聽到你有什麼辦法能夠來或者你敢不敢說 如果你當院長"},{"start":11580.566,"end":11609.427,"text":"最少有一件會解釋出來這個不會非法要執政黨我想純粹的政治性案件那應該憲法法人是不會受理的萊豬怎麼是政治性的案件呢萊豬是跟大家的健康有關係啊吃在家裡時間久了健康出問題啊這什麼政治事件呢"},{"start":11609.96,"end":11634.076,"text":"或者是行政事務的案件行政事務對不對好 另外一個我很關心的題目很少人問你我要問你一個問題很嚴肅台灣的青少年被大麻金屯纏死到處可以見到大麻的萃取物比如說電子煙比如說加熱源"},{"start":11636.107,"end":11651.578,"text":"而且你去看到你都很清楚你警察官在監獄裡面好高的比例過半都是毒有關係現在大麻在我們的位階裡面都是二級毒品對不對你贊成合法化嗎我個人不贊成合法化你要公開講大聲一點我個人不贊成大麻合法化"},{"start":11666.078,"end":11667.7,"text":"那我希望假如你當院長"},{"start":11680.158,"end":11707.34,"text":"這個絕對不能輕放因為一直有人想要推動大馬合法化想要學泰國想要學其他有些國家說從娛樂性的開始用然後什麼地方等等的我覺得這個害死我們的下一代害死台灣這個非常的重要最後一點就是大馬合法化"},{"start":11710.392,"end":11732.857,"text":"絕對要反對絕對不能容於台灣的社會這一點非常重要也請這個蔡主任你緊記這個不管你有沒有當院長我覺得這個大家一起來努力好不好謝謝好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝賴思寶委員的詢問也謝謝蔡備提名人的說明 謝謝"},{"start":11738.579,"end":11767.988,"text":"報告全院委員會我們對司法院大法官並為院長被提名人蔡秋明先生詢答部分到此為止我們非常謝謝蔡被提名人列席的答詢那也謝謝王玉民委員從早到現在一直在陪同我們進行審查下午兩點三十分繼續開會進行對司法院副院長被提名人蘇素娥女士質詢問現在休息"},{"start":12336.11,"end":12337.073,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":12525.547,"end":12526.295,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":13992.404,"end":13993.2,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":15165.53,"end":15167.005,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":15533.486,"end":15533.567,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17194.54,"end":17194.944,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":18901.721,"end":18903.166,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":19052.643,"end":19053.353,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":19297.626,"end":19298.746,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":21595.131,"end":21618.549,"text":"好 報告全院委員會 我們現在繼續開會我們也歡迎被提名的蘇素娥女士今天來列席我們全院委員會今天下午我們開始審查司法院大法官並為副院長提名人蘇素娥女士之資格以及是否私認相關事項我們現在請蘇素娥女士來做說明時間10分鐘 請"},{"start":21635.077,"end":21662.738,"text":"以及各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好我是蘇素娥今天以大法官並為副院長被提名人的身分到立法院接受各位委員的審查深感榮幸同時也覺得責任重大我現在就個人的學經歷專業表現司法改革的主張人權理念以及擔任大法官並為副院長的期許提出口頭報告"},{"start":21664.119,"end":21681.877,"text":"我出生在台北市的萬華區父母親是從嘉義縣六角鄉北上尋找工作機會的務農者媽媽是在傳統市場擺攤求學的過程一直受到師長的照顧領取獎學金順利完成學業"},{"start":21683.759,"end":21698.557,"text":"課餘經常到市場幫忙照顧攤位在國中的時候獲得校替楷模的表揚因為我的個性很明朗而且具有正義感所以我大學聯考的志願全部都選填各大學的法律系"},{"start":21699.298,"end":21725.451,"text":"如願進入了臺灣大學法律系來就讀然後受到教授、同學以及社會氛圍的啟發開始關心人權保障以及憲政發展的相關議題也積極參加社團活動到偏鄉服務協助和同理弱勢我是從民國81年10月8號開始分發士林地方法院服務擔任法官"},{"start":21726.371,"end":21754.643,"text":"大部分的時間我在辦理刑事案件也曾經辦理過民事案件跟家事案件同時也兼任了司法院職務法庭的法官所以我的審判經驗豐富而且多元然後個人在懲辦案件中如果有適合的案件會闡述人權保障跟憲政原理原則的判決曾經有判決收錄在王澤健教授的教科書中"},{"start":21755.444,"end":21769.004,"text":"或者经过大学的研究所采为实务研讨的案例同时有多篇被选为最高法院跟高等法院可供参考的裁判所以我的裁判品质是有受到肯定的"},{"start":21769.522,"end":21784.77,"text":"民國89年到90年間我前往美國加州大學伯克萊分校進修一步一腳印滿懷感激除了審判的經驗之外我很幸運有機會可以去歷練司法行政的工作"},{"start":21785.41,"end":21811.605,"text":"那擔任過司法院刑事廳的廳長以及士林地院的院長推動並實踐跟人權保障相關的法案譬如說推動刑事妥數審判法的立法修正刑事訴訟法裡面關於偵查中羈押審查程序的強制辯護以及越卷制度完善被害人的這個陳述意見以及被告的資訊"},{"start":21814.046,"end":21830.316,"text":"獲知權並修正了再審的制度還有增訂了限制出境出海的篇章被害人訴訟參與的章節以及刑事被告科技監控的相關規定此外我也負責草擬國民法官法"},{"start":21831.176,"end":21852.514,"text":"辦理全國的這個實務法庭的模擬在整個司法行政的這個歷練當中我努力的去貫徹憲法對於人民基本權利的保障並且增進人民對司法的了解跟信賴經過這個審判實務跟司法行政的雙重歷練我了解到獨立"},{"start":21853.795,"end":21873.902,"text":"公正、專業而且有效能的司法是人民對司法改革最深的期望然而現在的法院面臨前所未有的挑戰我們正遭受洪水般巨量的案件來淹沒依照司法院112年的統計年報過去10年的收案量增加了29.48%"},{"start":21876.263,"end":21897.993,"text":"桂潔案件增加了111.13法官及相關司法人員長期過勞人才大量流失社會的變遷這麼快司法改革的議題越來越複雜但是人民對於司法改革的期望從來沒有停止未來如果蒙大院的委員同意"},{"start":21898.854,"end":21913.435,"text":"讓我來擔任大法官並為副院長我將輔導我將輔佐協助司法院的院長關注以下的議題第一是捍衛審判獨立以公平正義為司法的核心價值"},{"start":21913.996,"end":21932.542,"text":"因為相關的民調跟研究顯示人民對於司法最深切的期望是司法可以獨立而且公正裁判因此致力於維護審判獨立環境避免外來的干預跟壓力來影響審判實現公平正義是人民的"},{"start":21933.644,"end":21948.433,"text":"期待未來我們將繼續來推動國民法官制度使司法更加的公開透明同時也會務實的調整訴訟制度維護獨立及公平審判的環境第二"},{"start":21949.554,"end":21965.707,"text":"建構專業而有效能的司法我們會盤點整體的司法資源細緻來分配人力有計畫的培養優秀審判及司法行政人才團隊合作跨領域來整合"},{"start":21966.507,"end":21991.638,"text":"統一法律見解精緻量刑提高裁判的安定性跟可預測性再來進行司法檢壓以目前司法實務的過勞現況司法改革需要更多資源的投入法官跟相關司法人員均需要有效的來增補並且要研議防止爛訴簡化裁判書類推廣訴訟外紛爭解決的機制"},{"start":21995.889,"end":22013.095,"text":"優化案件及行政管理的流程透過實用的科技工具來減少不必要的勞力、時間跟費用同時我要強化司法同仁身心健康的關懷措施增加司法人員互助成長的空間"},{"start":22014.235,"end":22039.935,"text":"最後還要連結到國際司法交流因為在數位的時代各種法律的爭議無遠弗屆跨國存在我國已經有了穩健的司法體系也面臨到跟其他國家相類似的司法困境我們可以與其他國家的法院建立穩定的合作與交流開拓國際視野提升專業能量最後我想表達"},{"start":22040.976,"end":22060.322,"text":"大法官是憲法的守護者保障人權維持憲政秩序的價值跟理念值得我們世世代代去捍衛我來自基層從事審判工作多年依據憲法法律超越黨派獨立審判對我來說是生活的一部分"},{"start":22060.962,"end":22075.579,"text":"我所經歷的每一個案件都是別人的生命故事人生經驗的累積讓我可以了解人民對國家對司法的期待是什麼如果獲得大院委員同意擔任大法官並為副院長"},{"start":22076.26,"end":22098.841,"text":"我會始終如一依據憲法獨立審判以保障人民的基本權利維護憲政秩序為直制同時我會以過往累積的司法行政經驗輔佐院長推動司法行政業務扮演一個稱職的大法官並為副院長角色敬請各位委員指教謝謝大家"},{"start":22103.407,"end":22111.171,"text":"我們現在進行委員詢問每位委員詢問及答覆時間為20分鐘採問及問及答的方式進行如果有詢問的委員不在場我們就視為放棄"},{"start":22125.202,"end":22135.608,"text":"第一位陳廷飛委員質詢問以書面提出我們列入記錄刊登公報接下來我們請王宏威委員詢問張啟凱委員請準備好謝謝主席請備題名人蘇蘇文理事麻煩請備題名人"},{"start":22163.083,"end":22175.912,"text":"在您的自傳裡面,您曾經擔任司法院的刑事廳廳長,也擔任過我們士林第八法院院長,您也自己說自己審判過很多案件。"},{"start":22176.894,"end":22190.552,"text":"但是呢最近台灣社會對於司法到底是不是公正到底有沒有雙標到底能不能保護好人人存在非常非常大的疑慮前兩天"},{"start":22191.974,"end":22206.481,"text":"在新北市土城一個有家暴案的男子當街殺了他的妻子跟他的小姨子而前一天才在司法在法院申請了保護令"},{"start":22207.912,"end":22226.114,"text":"那大家舉國華然就是這個保護令根本沒有辦法保護被家暴的對象而讓他當街慘死另外在前一陣子台灣因為詐騙橫行 封員一家五口"},{"start":22227.546,"end":22253.448,"text":"因為被詐騙一家五口死於非命最後呢在整個的調查的過程裡面其中一個重要的涉案人以15萬元交保所以台灣社會就說了難道一條命只值3萬元嗎所以連續的這些事件我想請問一下我們的被提名人您也是這個"},{"start":22255.945,"end":22277.346,"text":"相關的法院的經驗非常豐富不管是這個家暴令隔天立刻慘死街頭或者是一家五口被詐騙最後15萬元交保您覺得在司法上面是不是有什麼樣的疏失或者跟我們社會的期待事實上距離太遠"},{"start":22279.481,"end":22293.428,"text":"謝謝委員提問委員第一個問題是關於家暴令的問題家暴法在民國87年通過當時是整個大陸法系國家第一個有家暴法的國家是中華民國"},{"start":22294.564,"end":22312.316,"text":"家暴法的施行關於保護令的部分必須有很多單位的配合法官裁了保護令之後譬如說社政、警政都要相互的配合現在還有社工的要介入當然就是這個案子很不幸我們感到非常的心痛"},{"start":22313.296,"end":22335.871,"text":"這個案子在司法上面有沒有疏失或者有沒有要精進的地方法官在裁保護令經過適當的調查所以如果看那個時間的話是還在合理的範圍你認為是合理的範圍就保護令的部分的裁這就是我們在質疑的司法到底能不能保護好人"},{"start":22336.371,"end":22351.042,"text":"每一個人都認為他在那個環節裡面他做了他應該做的事但是最後的結果就是悲劇發生好 那我請問最近我們常常在討論也就是"},{"start":22352.583,"end":22368.209,"text":"檢察官申請羈押那到底要不要交保交保金到底是多少最近有非常多討論我剛提到豐原五口15萬元交保但是另外一個案子就是因為呢有一個"},{"start":22369.309,"end":22395.961,"text":"粉絲專業的小編他把幾個檢察官他的照片秀出來做了一個梗圖說命在命還結果呢就羈押禁建所以大家覺得說詐騙造成無口之家全部死於非命15萬元交保另外呢這個是檢察官當然會不爽然後就羈押禁建我們過去還有太多的案例啊"},{"start":22397.13,"end":22399.134,"text":"花眼12万元交保"},{"start":22400.1,"end":22429.099,"text":"那麼還有很多共諜案 所謂共諜案20萬元交保或者最近也發生一個案子讓台大醫院面上無光就是台大的民醫社性侵案40萬元交保你不能不說他的設計地位是很崇高他隨時可以離開台灣的然後棄保潛逃讓台大醫院的院長都經不住大罵這位潛逃的性侵的醫生"},{"start":22430.44,"end":22458.2,"text":"我讲到这么多的案例更不要讲我们之前好几个什么那种百万赌王一样的交保之后交保潜逃所以请问一下我们社会都在问那么法院在检察官来说就是他在要羁押开羁押庭的时候他的交保或者羁押他的标准到底是什么看起来我们变得非常混乱了"},{"start":22459.195,"end":22479.018,"text":"反而覺得有本事有辦法的他可能幾萬甚至上百萬交保對他們來講九牛一寶交保之後他就交保潛逃了但是我剛才講比如像這個小編這樣子對檢察官檢察官不爽但是他到了一個積壓境界的狀況連交保都不給他交保"},{"start":22480.08,"end":22495.499,"text":"那所以,我不曉得在法院系統有沒有去討論過這樣的一個羈押的標準到底是什麼?交保的條件又是什麼?該交保不交保,該羈押不羈押,有沒有這樣的狀況?"},{"start":22497.688,"end":22525.834,"text":"謝謝委員提問委員提到的這個封員無口應該還是在偵查的階段那偵查的這個階段他的事實是浮動的我們不曉得檢察官他手邊掌握的證據到一個什麼程度所以就這個部分還沒有到院方我們也沒有辦法做出比較真切的評論那麼至於其他的案件就是在就是如果檢察官申請羈押的時候我們法官會根據法律的規定來就是"},{"start":22526.434,"end":22541.291,"text":"相關的要件一一審核之後來做最後的判斷被提名人您是被提名為司法院副院長我剛才也聽到你如果能夠當司法院副院長你有一些想要做法可是老實說我們看不到"},{"start":22541.952,"end":22558.682,"text":"你們對於司法的公平正義還有它的標準目前在社會大家覺得非常的失望跟期待落空很多你們想要做出什麼樣的努力我剛才講的就是以交保的這個標準我們看到USASA"},{"start":22559.928,"end":22570.539,"text":"覺得應該去羈押的你不羈押該交保的你不去交保另外你在這邊也特別提到你希望能夠追求審判獨立"},{"start":22572.065,"end":22596.07,"text":"我想請問你 你知道社會的民眾大部分認為我們司法沒有審判獨立我引述一個美麗島電子報的一個民意調查針對司法的部分竟然有高達將近六成的人認為現在的賴政府是介入司法的"},{"start":22597.199,"end":22618.445,"text":"有將近6成59.3%的民眾認為司法在選擇性辦案您同不同意您覺得這樣子的民眾的看法跟你認為的是不是有落差而是不是也因此你希望要去爭取所謂的審判獨立"},{"start":22620.988,"end":22647.116,"text":"跟委員報告就我的同事就是在我工作的環境我們大部分的法官都是兢兢業業然後獨立審判這個是沒有錯的您剛剛提到的這個交保的這個標準不一造成大家很混淆那事實上就是個案的情況不同我們比較難以量化可是我們會利用各種機會跟教育的這個場所來提醒法官應該注意的事項"},{"start":22649.457,"end":22666.176,"text":"民眾對於司法有很高的期待這個我們了解或許我們做得還不夠我們會繼續努力那現在的審判有獨立嗎就您所了解就我所了解就我自己來講我覺得審判獨立就是我的日常生活的一部分"},{"start":22666.804,"end":22690.729,"text":"這是你個人但是大部分呢怎麼會有這樣的一個民意調查的結果呢我覺得就是我們跟民眾之間可能還有需要更多的了解跟溝通這就是你們每一個案子就是一次的溝通在這麼多的案子之下累積下來民眾的感受就是如此另外因為今天是大法官審查我要請問您"},{"start":22692.435,"end":22715.433,"text":"因為您也是推動國民法官的推手之一那麼在大法官做出解釋憲判之八對於法院要判決死刑才行一致決事實上引起社會極大的爭議認為這是實質廢死"},{"start":22718.715,"end":22747.456,"text":"而這跟國民法官推動有沒有相漢格的地方也就是說當時為什麼要有國民法官就是很多人都認為很多是恐龍法官因為呢他們對社會或者民眾的期待民眾認為司法應該要保護民眾保護好人嚴懲壞人事實上那個差距太大了所以才因此要推動國民法官所以我想請問一下如果"},{"start":22748.979,"end":22752.206,"text":"大法官的一個解釋整個的"},{"start":22753.993,"end":22779.507,"text":"死刑的判決必須要一致決那你認為應該是有一致決就可以推翻國民法官判死嗎如果國民法官認為他應該判處死刑但是因為現在的大法官的解釋必須這些所有專業的法官要一致決那是不是國民法官他的判決就輕易的被推翻您贊成嗎"},{"start":22780.727,"end":22807.632,"text":"跟委員說明這個113年限8號的這個判決因為申請的案件裡面並沒有一件是實行國民法官的所以這個判決的效力射程距離並沒有包含到國民法官的案件那國民法官的案件他的評議有特別的規定那就是他的評議就是如果是要一般的案件的量刑是二分之一然後如果是死刑判決是三分之二"},{"start":22808.651,"end":22828.782,"text":"大法官在這個判決裡面有特別提到說如果是國民法官的判決的話也只有職業法官那三票要一致其他的部分就還是維持原來的三分之二的這個方式來進行所以他不應該涵蓋國民法官的案件嗎應該是他的射程距離沒有到國民法官的案件"},{"start":22830.24,"end":22856.433,"text":"好我討論到這裡就是我們其實在對每一位大法官我們都很在意的就是在上一波的大法官提名裡面我們因為那時候九名大法官七名大法官他都有參與一些Face的行動或者是他在發文他的文章論述裡面支持Face那我請問一下被提名人你支持Face嗎"},{"start":22859.298,"end":22883.729,"text":"我的立場是這樣就是我覺得廢死這件事情它不應該是非黑即白的不應該是什麼並不是就是非黑即白就是只能夠有單一的選擇它應該是一個過程然後也可能就是在我們的大法官的解釋裡面我是問您個人您個人贊成廢死嗎你支持廢死嗎"},{"start":22885.65,"end":22915.005,"text":"聽我說明完就是因為我就是在大法官的憲八裡面他是認為死刑是核限的死刑是核限的然後呢我自己擔任法官我的眼中只有法律跟證據如果法律跟證據是這個案子應該判死刑我就會本於確信來判死刑然後事實上呢在憲八的這一個判決裡面的三就是三十幾個案件裡面有個案件是我曾經審理過的所以"},{"start":22917.29,"end":22943.724,"text":"這個理論上我是應該要迴避這個案件的我覺得妳有點在迴避這個問題喔那我直接想請教妳喔妳是不是曾經捐款贊助給廢死聯盟曾經捐過兩萬塊為什麼因為就是有朋友來募款就是他們年底覺得說這個就是有需要款項所以其實我就捐了一些"},{"start":22944.989,"end":22954.859,"text":"所以單純只是因為有人跟你募款所以這不牽涉到你個人的立場或者是你支持廢死聯盟嗎"},{"start":22955.8,"end":22974.486,"text":"應該是這樣說就是我的立場是法官就是根據法律來做跟證據來做判斷那事實上我也有判過死刑的案件就是依照當時的法律來做了判斷你的意思說你自己曾經判死過對不對是好那我想再請教一下"},{"start":22975.726,"end":22995.508,"text":"我們現在在立法院,因為這是有廣大的民眾在網路上,大概有14萬的民眾的訴求陳情,尤其大家知道前一陣子的凱開案,大家認為您虐幼兒致死,應該判處死刑或者無期徒刑。"},{"start":22997.05,"end":23019.666,"text":"因為在行政院法務部遲遲沒有提出法務部的版本因為之前他們是反對的所以在立法院裡面現在國民黨的立法院黨團提出了刑法第286條的條文修正對幼童凌虐致死最高可以處於死刑或者無期徒刑你認為這樣的修正會違憲嗎"},{"start":23024.805,"end":23039.564,"text":"法定刑要不要定死刑這件事情是立法形成自由凌略幼童致死或者是凌略來殺害幼童或者是直接他的犯意呈現到殺人罪直接判殺人罪"},{"start":23040.064,"end":23067.443,"text":"都有可能就是如果經過大院的討論覺得應該要法定刑要升高到死刑的話那這個部分是立法裁量自由不過呢我想要提醒就是說相關的權責機關應該要做一個比較好的這個比對就是相關的這個相類似的這個相類似的刑罰是不是他的刑度是不是可以做一個比較不要差異太大會造成這個罪行不相當"},{"start":23068.827,"end":23081.673,"text":"所以你个人的话认为如果我们今天修正这个条文的话你不认为是有违宪之语因为我们现在很可怕行政院只要认为我们修正的是他们没有版本的他就认为是违宪了"},{"start":23082.789,"end":23109.75,"text":"現在應該是說單一死刑比較難通過憲法的檢驗我剛講到286條我沒有講其他的條文所以你這個部分你認為沒有違憲之餘另外請教一下我們在立法院之前曾經提出針對反對廢除死刑舉行全國性的公投但是被中選會駁回"},{"start":23111.977,"end":23136.531,"text":"我想請問你因為你在你回答就是我們各黨團的這個回答問題裡面你也認為重大政策立法院是可以提出全民公投的但是這個案子竟然被中選會來駁回你認為中選會駁回立法院所提出來的反Face公投適當嗎有沒有違憲之餘"},{"start":23138.012,"end":23139.593,"text":"你認為有實質審查權嗎立法院有實質審查權嗎 按照"},{"start":23166.172,"end":23195.092,"text":"大法官之前做出來的解釋大法官的解釋是說可以提重大公投的議案但是議案的內容是什麼可能要就是也要符合相關的規定第二條同時有規定到一個問題是說除憲法規定外就是基本上公民投票可不可以投憲法的議題這個可能會比較有爭議因為它有一個除外的規定那如果是已經就憲八的部分憲八因為"},{"start":23195.672,"end":23224.577,"text":"因為大法官已經做出了解釋他的效力相當於這個憲法所以就憲八就是要推翻憲八或是他詳細的內容我不是那麼清楚但是就是說如果是跟憲法的議題有關的話所以這就是我覺得被提名的人又認為整個大法官的視線是完全的無限的膨脹當時很多大法官還有大法官認為說大法官不用屈從民意"},{"start":23225.097,"end":23253.138,"text":"但是另外一方面我們賴總統也講啊對有爭議的時候要用更大的民主來解決啊其實立法院就是民意機關你民意機關定的這個提出來的公投案你還是不准那我們就用更大的民主來解決如果按照被提名你所說的那麼憲判8號他們這個已經說此席要一致決而這樣就不能夠來做全民公投的話"},{"start":23253.979,"end":23279.132,"text":"那這就是漠視更大的民主漠視民意不是嗎這不是把大法官真的難怪大法官說我可以不需要屈從民意所以大法官好大喔所以我們剛才一直在討論從我一開始就這個我們整個質詢我的重點就是在於我們的現在的司法到底能不能讓人民幸福我們的司法到底能不能保護好人"},{"start":23280.052,"end":23299.005,"text":"嚴懲壞人他能不能成為社會公平正義的最後一道防線如果他不行的話我剛才看到前面的幾個例子當街慘死的也好或者詐騙一家五口死掉的也好或者我們有這麼做這麼多的案件這麼多的"},{"start":23299.685,"end":23323.317,"text":"被害者或被害家屬只是因為大法官一個偏頗然後他根本就違憲而且你說死刑本來就合憲啊死刑合憲但是你做出了這個大法官的解釋死的變成十字廢死空有其名但是沒有辦法判處死刑的時候難道人民不能夠決定嗎被提名人"},{"start":23326.26,"end":23337.433,"text":"整個司法改革最後一樣是要走到司法為名就是就是最早的司法改革追求的是審判獨立但是後來我們現在的主主要的基調是司法為名所以剛剛這個"},{"start":23338.715,"end":23362.313,"text":"委員所提到的就是要以人民的想法為依歸這個我都贊成這個你同意吧這是我們司法還是要以人民為依歸怎麼讓人民去幸福讓人民得到保障得到保護才是最高指導原則吧你同意嗎那另外這一點點是請教一下你認同中華民國憲法有權給予台澎金馬嗎這個大法"},{"start":23369.616,"end":23377.983,"text":"原來葉國鴻是政治問題之一所以你沒有辦法回答中華民國的憲法是不是太多了嗎"},{"start":23403.049,"end":23408.291,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝王宏偉委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人的說明 謝謝請坐"},{"start":23424.738,"end":23427.801,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請登記第三號張祺凱委員詢問吳思瑤委員請準備"},{"start":23469.47,"end":23496.038,"text":"謝謝韓連長 請副院長貝提名人麻煩貝提名人再次說明你很好副院長貝提名人好你是這個擔任過行政廳的廳長行事廳對 行事廳的廳長行事訴訟方面你是專家啦對不對 我先請教一下"},{"start":23497.172,"end":23522.742,"text":"關於限制出境還有出海這個相關規定在刑訴訴訟法裡面的第幾邊 第幾章委員很抱歉我記不起那個數字不過那一整張是當時是我在的時候修的法關於就是刑訴訴訟法裡面關於限制出境還有出海這相關規定在刑訴訴訟法裡面的第幾邊 第幾章"},{"start":23525.796,"end":23554.809,"text":"就是數字我記不起來但是我知道這是你自傳裡面寫的是是是那一整張是我修的是我增訂進去的只是那個數字我記不起來我大概是從93條左右開始所以你不曉得在第幾邊數字會記不起來很抱歉來我給你看一下這個是掛在總統府的網站上面這也是你送到立法院來審查的自傳"},{"start":23558.659,"end":23579.39,"text":"你說你負責推動跟增訂《刑訴訴訟法》的第二篇第八章之一限制出境跟出海是這是對的嗎因為我現在可能要翻一下法條會比較清楚就是那一整章這是你重要的政績謝謝謝謝委員對不對"},{"start":23584.209,"end":23609.328,"text":"你竟然不曉得他在第幾邊喔?呃...是不是...我想要確認一下是不是有打錯字或是什麼...嘿...委員的義...委員的義...這個我有點壓抑喔因為這算你重大的政績嘛是...可是數字部分可能真的比較沒有...你是刑事廳的廳長而且這是你長久推動的這是你自傳送過來又送到總統府的最嚴重的是什麼?不只你現在不曉得欸你的自傳還寫錯欸"},{"start":23612.965,"end":23629.979,"text":"這個規定是在第一邊耶你送到總統府送到立法院立法院審查的竟然是錯的很抱歉可能是誤善這是你寫的是不是是誤善這麼嚴重真的很抱歉你竟然也還不記得"},{"start":23633.789,"end":23634.409,"text":"我記得條文我記得93條我記得條文"},{"start":23653.085,"end":23668.316,"text":"謝謝委員這回去馬上改這是一個認真的態度大法官應該是要認真的嘛第二個你要非常尊重立法院的審查你說裡面送來的資料都是不對的我要回去查還找不到這是你的專長"},{"start":23671.321,"end":23699.922,"text":"這扣分扣太多了這是對我們立法院審查的不尊重這樣也是對你被提名為大法官的被提名人一個不尊重我陳赤的道歉應該是誤善打字的時候就是誤善來 被提名我們再看一下上次你們來拜會的時候我特別提醒你我說我們辛辛苦苦非常詳細的做了問卷對不對是請你要盡快想死而且要盡快的"},{"start":23701.769,"end":23724.178,"text":"要填寫你在什麼時候 我們26號給你們嘛 對不對你什麼時候回來給我回來 我記得是禮拜一個 就是禮拜五我禮拜一才接到啊我在兩天前才接到你的回覆耶這是對我們審查制度的尊重嗎"},{"start":23726.923,"end":23748.937,"text":"我們為什麼辛辛苦苦要做問卷這是我們的職責也是你的職責你被提名了我們要很清楚知道你對很多事情的看法你要立場要有主張對不對結果你在前天才給我們這時間不會拖太晚嗎我們一起應該是星期五的下午可能有一點剛好是週末假日的時間差"},{"start":23750.865,"end":23779.765,"text":"拉得太長 26號給你 到前天才回來另外更嚴重的就是你的這個回答很多都是十問須答顧左右而言他我們看不到你的立場跟你的內容欸甚至在第二問的時候 大家看到沒有我們的十個問題第二問的時候問題啊 跟你的答案文字大概差不多在下一張"},{"start":23781.67,"end":23802.421,"text":"第七問的時候在問你不適合檢察官的這個問題這個有沒有侵犯到人權有沒有不正新聞這是非常非常重要你剛在報告的時候還有答詢的時候在強調你非常關心人權嘛這麼重要的問題我題目473個字你回答了430個字為什麼會這麼一個是在敷衍嗎沒有跟委員報告我可以口頭來補充說明嗎"},{"start":23811.649,"end":23835.232,"text":"因為檢察官的部分畢竟就是因為我長久是在審判體系所以檢察官的部分其實我們是確實是比較不了解的但是我知道法院組織法的部分檢察官的這個職務監督人他根據規定他可以做哪一些職務監督然後呢他也准用到法官法的一些相關的規定就是檢察官評鑑等等所以我是引用了這些條文然後來"},{"start":23836.333,"end":23852.307,"text":"來說明說現在有相關的規定來處理檢察官的違法失職然後這個規定在那裡但是委員覺得說好像執行起來好像不太有效這個應該是權責單位他們要去檢討說執行的問題這個是因為是檢察官的部分我們審判體系確實是比較不了解"},{"start":23860.754,"end":23868.141,"text":"被提名的人你在強調你是長久以來非常尊重人權對不對注意人權的結果這段時間的"},{"start":23870.54,"end":23896.069,"text":"不是任檢察官裡面的不正訊問或者是羈押的問題這是憲法第八條明文規定要保障人權也是你長久在追求的結果你是回答這樣短短幾個字看不到你很明確的立場跟堅定的立場我們在投票的時候這一題要幫你加分還是扣分當然扣分啊最重要的是十個題目我剛才講你是所有七個被提名人裡面資歷算是幾乎是最完整的"},{"start":23897.21,"end":23923.101,"text":"這是加分結果你的問卷裡面扣分滿滿幾乎是死當的一個狀態跟委員報告這個關於那個不當詢問的部分我有特別引用了刑事訴訟法第156條它事實上就是在處理不正詢問的問題那他提到的是這個被告自白一定要有任意性他不能夠這個被就是在強暴脅迫不正詢問的方法之下來這個"},{"start":23925.402,"end":23943.714,"text":"來做陳述所以您提到了這個不正詢問我特別提到了這個刑事訴訟法第156條的規定如果檢察官引用了這一個這樣的不正詢問的公訴來當作證據的話在開庭的時候這個資料是會公開的在開庭的時候法官經過調查"},{"start":23944.975,"end":23965.584,"text":"他經過調查之後他會他可以認為說不具任意性把證據排除不正詢問的部分後來如果經過調查確實確有歧視的話警方或者是檢察官可能都還要面對可能的跟根據事證或情節他有可能有責任"},{"start":23966.324,"end":23994.566,"text":"我們題目裡面提了很多針對這段時間受到不正信問的侵犯的事情你都沒有明確去回答我們甚至還特別問你徵訊的內容是不是應該公開你也不回答有太多的該回答的東西沒有回答我其實有回答就是說徵訊的內容它是卷證的一部分它起訴之後它自然就會公開了在法庭上會公開的然後上面這個第二題這個我們特別提到說限訴法這個修正"},{"start":23995.902,"end":24010.208,"text":"我們詳細的說明了我們這次修正的這個重點連全世界相關的都寫了我們特別請教你要你明確的表達意見說有沒有如戴卿的總統"},{"start":24011.874,"end":24013.535,"text":"要你回答明確了你是短短一句話"},{"start":24033.057,"end":24050.318,"text":"我先明確跟你講現在我取的只是其中的一部分就是實題下來你跟其他的七位被提名人你幾乎是相當少的一部分第二個你都是實問虛答這基本上在我們審查的過程裡面我們沒辦法很清楚看到你的主張"},{"start":24051.851,"end":24079.358,"text":"我們為什麼要做問卷就是希望你把你的我們有十問每一個立場要非常清楚我們了解你的立場跟主張之後才能夠投同一票嘛 是不是這樣子是 謝謝委員委員這個部分我也可以口頭來補充這方面真的要補考啦來 再看看你現在要被提名為副院長嘛你是要這段時間台灣民眾對於司法的滿意度"},{"start":24080.575,"end":24106.914,"text":"跟信任度是非常低的我們看一下美麗島電子報啊 四月底那個 給你們你可以看一下政府有沒有選擇性辦案 將近六成政府 政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案將近六成政治力介入了司法案件你要現在當這個副院長 對不對"},{"start":24109.99,"end":24116.496,"text":"將近六成為什麼台灣民眾對於司法的不滿意不信這麼高"},{"start":24120.311,"end":24146.411,"text":"臺灣民眾對司法的信賴度不高我們確實有要深自檢討的地方當然有部分原因是因為我們覺得還要更加加強的跟民眾來做溝通然後我們自己就是要做到的就如同我剛剛提到的我們必須把公平正義當作我們說要投票給你你怎麼讓我們的司法信任度跟滿意度可以升高"},{"start":24147.148,"end":24152.55,"text":"你要做什麼事情今天早上被院長被提名人說他痛加檢討如果他投票給你 你要怎麼做"},{"start":24153.786,"end":24178.524,"text":"我刚刚已经提到说我们了解人民对司法的这个的鞭策跟期待是很深的而且不会停止的所以司法改革的脚步也从来没有停止过然后所以我们一定会再加强相关的比如说我刚才提到说这个要每一个法官把这个公平正义的这个精神当做他最重要的一个核心价值"},{"start":24180.805,"end":24207.695,"text":"我來給你看一下你以前的經驗你當過刑事廳的廳長民國105年11月21號到109年的2月2號你上任前啊大家對於法院的法官的不信任度是高的48.5可是在你上任之後更高啊隔一年還更高啊當然不能只有怪你一個人可是沒有看到你的承擔看到你的改革"},{"start":24209.073,"end":24236.668,"text":"所以妳要加油啦謝謝妳就擔任了副院長之後真的是百惠待舉我們再看一下現在更嚴重的是連大法官都不被信任了從這次的國會改革一直到實質廢止這個事情太多的民眾對我們的大法官本來是高道德高標準的對不對現在很多人在馬路上都跟你講說搞不好這變成已經是政治的一個打手"},{"start":24238.743,"end":24266.115,"text":"這是很嚴重的一個問題好來 我來具體的事實上我們在這邊投票給你我相信全國民眾要看你就看你的擔當你的獨立性跟公正性你有沒有擔當有一個發生在你跟你家人的為據實申報的這個案子來我們看一下這個案子這個一共是24筆沒有據實去申報嘛"},{"start":24269.326,"end":24275.377,"text":"我看後來這個罰款處分監察院處分確定這個金額高達22萬高達22萬一共有24筆"},{"start":24279.005,"end":24289.394,"text":"那這個監裁處分書裡面他直接寫說受處分人應該依照規定據實申報財產可是在申報102年12月31號財產的時候就應申報這財產項目沒有據實申報配我是你的先生存款有9筆股票5筆基金受益憑證10筆"},{"start":24304.335,"end":24332.749,"text":"怎麼發生這麼嚴重的跟委員說明謝謝委員給我這個機會說明這件事情困擾我也很久了這個事情是發生在102年102年的時候當時的財產申報是用人工查詢、手工登錄的所以我配偶他給我的資料確實有遺漏剛剛委員提到說存款的部分存款的部分我們被查出來就是"},{"start":24333.109,"end":24361.023,"text":"他本來常用的就是那三個帳戶但是後來查出來了有14個帳戶我們自己都嚇到就是有一些可能已經放很久沒有用了那所以你剛剛提到說好像有11個帳戶沒有報沒有錯因為我們常用後來監察院說你經過你們受處分人所陳述的申報不實是理由他說不足採信對不對對他認為是故意的申報不實我先給你看一個你應該認得林子儀林教授對不對是來我們看一下"},{"start":24362.043,"end":24390.09,"text":"林子儀林教授是在2007年他跟你一樣他也被提名為副院長這個提名人一樣狀況他也是配偶財產申報的他的狀況是什麼他是主動發現他坦承疏失了然後呢他的金額比你多一點他三次股票交易虧損然後他是已經信託給證件公司錢錢去處理的他後來做了一個決定婉拒了司法院副院長的提名"},{"start":24392.096,"end":24414.427,"text":"你這邊看起來金額比他少一點點可是你是動態的而且是存款這看起來然後監察院認為說不採信你的嘛看起來有點嚴重跟委員報告監察院後面顯示說他認為我是不確定故意他認為我的錯是在我沒有竭盡所能去發現被配偶的財產這樣子那我的配偶就這個部分他已經"},{"start":24415.227,"end":24437.799,"text":"陳志德跟我道歉他確實是他提供的資料是不夠完整的那我們在被發現的這件事情之後我們就立刻就是去做了補正然後也繳了罰款我們沒有再做任何的這個訴願林教授是因為這樣子他婉拒的副院長提名那你說你的先生是已經有道歉了你要不要利用今天這個公開的這個在地法院這個審訊"},{"start":24439.982,"end":24466.933,"text":"這個審查你要不要公開跟民眾是不是要道歉大法官是高標準高道的我誠摯的道歉而且我在監察院後來採用電腦借機申報之後從事辦開始我們就全權授權從事辦開始我們就全權授權一直到現在就是我的態度是很明確的我知道我不夠完美但是我覺得我的專業表現值得給自己這樣一個機會好"},{"start":24471.219,"end":24481.509,"text":"你是國民法官法很重要的推手很多人是肯定你的國民走進法院法官走下法台"},{"start":24482.857,"end":24510.894,"text":"這個是國民法官法當初注定一個非常重要的一個特色他們說這是蔡英文總統任內最重要的一個司法改革那時候的院長是許仲麗他們說推動這個國民法官法起草這個草案就是由司法院著名的梅尼法官刑事廳長舒適的一手主導推寫社會大眾對你推這個國民法官法是肯定的謝謝在開宗明義第一章開宗明義的第一章"},{"start":24513.726,"end":24541.465,"text":"國民法官法講的是要提升司法的透明度對不對第二個要反映國民正當的法律感情增進國民對司法之了解跟信賴彰顯國民的主權理念那如果是要推動司法改革司法的這個透明度法庭直播你應該是要贊成的可是我看你回來的回來的我們問卷回來的你設了一堆條件"},{"start":24543.612,"end":24566.471,"text":"你贊成法庭直播嗎我再跟委員說明一下法庭直播的部分在6月27號三讀通過那三讀通過之後它是一個法規範理論上我們是尊重...抱歉我打斷你講話了你的精神你的初心應該是要推動公開透明"},{"start":24568.192,"end":24593.701,"text":"對不對 這兩個A是一致嘛從你推動國民法官法到法庭直播我現在懷疑的是說你的初心是不見了嗎為什麼你現在回來的問卷的答案跟民進黨的反對意見好像看起來不止百分之七十相像欸你很多都是複製推上欸很多是複製推上欸你剛才講你剛一開始自傳弄錯了你這個也是然後更嚴重的來你看一下你提到這個理由啊"},{"start":24595.609,"end":24605.774,"text":"你說此外相關的媒體的自律網路平台規範還有待建立現在的媒體不夠自律嗎"},{"start":24606.53,"end":24632.43,"text":"我跟董委員說明這個是我們立法院在召開公聽會的時候就是有代表就是有公聽會有各界的代表來表達很多的意見不是不是我是提醒就是說在那個公聽會裡面曾經就事實省的直播有意見就是說有比較多的意見時間有限我問你一下所以在媒體自律這塊如果有問題誰要負責NCC嘛對不對"},{"start":24636.038,"end":24662.629,"text":"NCC的委員到現在還被癱瘓啊沒有提是誰要負責任是誰要負責任我們是覺得說就是媒體或許可以再討論一個就是比較可行的方案行政院院長依法要提啊他到現在沒有提啊違法亂紀啊無法無天啊他大家要癱瘓NCC啊你講的這個問題行政院要負責啊第二個你講說網路平台規範有待建立網路平台什麼管欸誰管的"},{"start":24666.937,"end":24687.699,"text":"網路平台 行政體系誰在管是不是數位部嗎數發部啊這裡面出現兩個大問題啊你知道問題 那應該去解決問題啊第二更重要的 你的初心是什麼公開透明嘛 對不對不要再只有推別人的反對意見我希望你可以很明確的支持法庭直播"},{"start":24702.415,"end":24703.215,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝張祺凱委員的詢問也謝謝貝廷銘人的說明"},{"start":24720.322,"end":24736.913,"text":"被提名請喝口水你喝我一直等你喝完水下面一位委員就開始詢問好謝謝接下來我們請登記第四位吳思瑤委員請詢問翁曉琳委員請準備謝謝院長有請我們蘇"},{"start":24748.717,"end":24753.162,"text":"副院長提名人麻煩被提名人再次說明委員好"},{"start":24760.525,"end":24782.814,"text":"您辛苦了我今天的破題就是我們要在一個司法面臨著內外交迫的挑戰外有社會或來自於政治力的挑戰內有我們需要改革為司法人員減壓的困境所以如何在這個內憂外患的司法的險境當中我們能夠突圍能夠重生"},{"start":24783.434,"end":24798.089,"text":"所以在這個重建司法的關鍵時刻我還是要再一次的說我希望今天站在這裡來提出質詢的立法委員們都要相對的自治我想我們司法正義不應當成為政黨惡鬥的犧牲品"},{"start":24799.711,"end":24813.243,"text":"我真心的期待剛剛前幾位委員的質詢我聽了真的是無比的遺憾一再的針對個案來做誘導式的詢答或者是強迫你們針對政治立場來表態"},{"start":24815.945,"end":24844.745,"text":"我吳思瑤的立場是我認為不見得要求您要針對提出來的每一個政黨詢問你們的題目你們的答案要跟我設想的一模一樣我們要選擇的不是一個聽話的大法官不是一個完全思想跟我個人一模一樣的大法官而是如何在多元民主包容的台灣社會能夠彰顯司法的獨立公正跟判斷"},{"start":24845.666,"end":24864.354,"text":"这才是我们今天站在这里非常重要的意义我再说一次有媒体等会要采访我针对上午呢这个院长提名人针对在黄国昌委员的询答当中有提到这个院长提名人对于部分执政党认为涉及违宪的法案"},{"start":24865.154,"end":24888.579,"text":"他認為恐怕沒有違憲我認為這樣的回答我不會因此而把他認為我不同意他我認為他的司法專業不足法律專業不足我再說一次我們不是要選擇聽話的大法官我們不是要選擇一個跟你百分之百政黨意識形態或者是對於案件的觀點或是政策的觀點一模一樣的大法官"},{"start":24889.099,"end":24905.431,"text":"我們要的是能夠如何在不同的多元思維之下還能夠彰顯法律專業跟司法正義的大法官我今天站在這裡我要用這樣子的態度跟您對話我更要忍不住的說"},{"start":24907.052,"end":24925.352,"text":"國人確實對司法的滿意度普遍還有待努力但是剛剛在這裡處處為難您的立法委員民眾黨的政黨支持度只有10.10%吧而他們在五月份的民調不滿意度高達54%"},{"start":24928.496,"end":24956.294,"text":"所以一個自己政黨滿意度都不高的政黨也應當反求諸己而不是一再這裡撻伐別人為難別人好下一頁這是我在去年針對我非常期待我們能夠誕生首位的司法院的女院長那時候針對姜文珍的院長提名人的時候我尋答的時候我準備的PPT就說你有看過這部影片嗎"},{"start":24957.697,"end":24982.086,"text":"NHK的大席建議您可以看一看您一定很有很深的一個感觸這是三淵家子是日本的首位女律師那也是日本的首位女法官她講述了如何在一個性別禁忌的年代女性可以成為法律專業的佼佼者在那個禁忌的年代而中華民國台灣我們已經產生了女總統"},{"start":24984.787,"end":25005.22,"text":"但非常遺憾,去年的大法官院長同意權的行使,張文貞院長被提名人是被封殺的,但我們尊重這個結果。但我期待,有遺珠之憾張文貞沒有辦法容認院長,我非常期待蘇蘇兒您可以成為我們首位的司法院副院長。我給您無比的祝福,下頁。"},{"start":25006.241,"end":25017.663,"text":"而宪法法庭我们确实就性别的比例一直的在提升如果以2024年现任跟现任的大法官其实是女性男性一比二"},{"start":25018.874,"end":25044.278,"text":"如果這一次我們的提名能夠順利的話將來到女性七位男性八位是一比一所以說讓性別的憲法重量也能夠達到性別平權我再一次期待您可以為我們性別平權的性別主流化的司法行政司法院的領導帶來新的風氣下一頁"},{"start":25047.72,"end":25059.171,"text":"這邊我具體也跟您分享,不曉得您有沒有注意到,我們在法官人數,司法的從業人員的法官人數,女性已經來到1156位,男性是1043位,其實女性來到52.6%,"},{"start":25070.882,"end":25090.908,"text":"而右邊的這個圖表是各級法院的女性法官的占比在這十年間也都大幅的躍升所以如果您有機會可以成為我們未來領導的副院長您如何再深化在司法領域的性別主流化的意識呢簡單回答"},{"start":25091.468,"end":25107.038,"text":"是 就是在相關的會議就是相關各個法院有各式各樣的會議我們都會要求要符合性別主流化的規定然後在法官學院的課程裡面也都每年都有加入這樣的課程"},{"start":25107.558,"end":25123.889,"text":"而且盡可能也要把著更多優秀的女性司法人員事實上現在女性法官的人數好像也是非常高嗎是超過一半超過一半非常好所以這是比較進步性的議題我非常期待您能夠未來扮演重要的角色下一頁"},{"start":25124.79,"end":25153.129,"text":"那現在要進入一些政治題的深水區喔這一頁同樣也是我去年在追尋張文貞院長提名人的時候我提出來的Elena Coggan您應當對她也不陌生喔她是美國第四位的女性大法官當時歐巴馬提名的時候呢提名她為大法官候選人的時候基於政黨不同立場共和黨也對她做出非常多"},{"start":25153.669,"end":25177.894,"text":"不公允的批判把他描述成一個非常激進的激進主張者激進主義者但是我非常推崇他這句話您應當有讀過這應該是法律人的金句也就是my politics would be must be have to becompletely separate from my judgment"},{"start":25178.584,"end":25192.543,"text":"我個人的政治判斷我縱使有我的政治思想我有我個人的一些偏好主張但是完全會與我在專業的法律的判斷上是完全必須分離的"},{"start":25193.704,"end":25220.383,"text":"這就是我剛剛說的我們要選擇的不是一個百分之百聽話的大法官所有的主張跟民進黨執政黨或跟吳斯堯一樣的大法官我們要的是您可以彰顯您的法律專業在每一個案件的判斷上你可以去有獨立判斷的空間而社會或是國會就要給予我們的司法人員這樣子獨立判斷的空間您非常同意嗎對不對好那下一頁"},{"start":25221.184,"end":25228.176,"text":"而當中一個很重要的基準就是客尊憲法左邊呢是我當初"},{"start":25230.528,"end":25254.358,"text":"擔任立法委員我宣誓的誓詞每四年一屆當我有幸連任我一定會對著國旗來宣讀我的誓詞於是以製程恪遵憲法效忠國家代表人民依法行使職權不徇私舞弊不營求私利不受受賄賂重點來了不干預司法"},{"start":25255.322,"end":25278.96,"text":"就是每一個立法委員在宣誓的時候我們向國人對著憲法的宣誓我們絕對不會用政治力去干預司法同樣的如果您能夠擔任未來的副院長您的誓詞當中也一樣萬本歸宗我們要克尊國家的憲法大法官是憲法的守護者下一頁"},{"start":25279.841,"end":25293.612,"text":"只是非常遺憾這一屆的立法院組成一年半基於憲政機關平等相違的權力分立的原則卻被立法院大幅的強害了"},{"start":25295.061,"end":25318.99,"text":"禍害了也就是不斷的去彰顯一個國會最大國會優位的思維反映在立法院不管行使人事權預算權乃至於法律案都讓各個憲政機關的憲政忠誠義務沒有辦法去煽驚所以我們絕對不容司法受到政治的干預"},{"start":25320.49,"end":25348.301,"text":"我們不容司法受到政治的箝制我也希望您有這樣子的背膀面對任何的政治的威嚇我們都要能夠挺住因為我們客尊憲法而憲法告訴我們沒有誰比較大平等相為的憲政義務大家是平等的所以下一頁我為什麼說這是內憂外患的一個時期我們碰到了"},{"start":25349.731,"end":25360.344,"text":"現在非常險峻的在野黨對國家並不忠誠對憲法並不忠誠對人民並不忠誠他們一再的挑戰司法也一再的去挑戰憲法"},{"start":25363.582,"end":25380.737,"text":"違憲有兩種一種是維護憲法但他們偏偏選擇了違反憲法而沒有司法迫害我們這麼多年來做司法改革我們都希望司法透明公開公正獨立的審判"},{"start":25381.858,"end":25401.865,"text":"我們都不容現在的進步台灣法治台灣有司法迫害的形式但現在在台灣的政治權發生的是迫害司法的這種作為我想看看就人事權的部分這是史上延宕最久"},{"start":25402.805,"end":25418.973,"text":"不管是2024年大法官的同意群的行事延宕了95天2025年總統再次提名到現在也延宕了74天我非常期待這一次能夠順利行事不要再讓我們的司法單位"},{"start":25419.893,"end":25440.162,"text":"最高的司法院沒有辦法如常運作下一頁剛講的是人事權被杯葛被延宕了更嚴厲的挑戰就是立法權來強害司法權然後呢有非常多的違憲法案這邊都是我們已經具體的去申請釋憲"},{"start":25441.843,"end":25469.071,"text":"但您放心 我不會要求您對每一個議案來表達你認為它違憲與否我說了 我不會像黃國昌這樣我們不是用政治力去壓迫每一個被提名人 被強制的表態我也不會因為你認為哪些法案違憲或不違憲來去貶抑了或去左右了我對您的法律專業的尊重跟判斷"},{"start":25470.165,"end":25483.747,"text":"我希望是這樣因為憲法法庭是一個專業的組成而事實上這些政治議程上的釋憲案只佔我們所有憲法法庭受理的釋憲案的比例非常低"},{"start":25484.667,"end":25504.579,"text":"一般百分之九十八九十九都是人民的申請案他並沒有政黨意識只有1%2%是可能涉及憲法機關當中的權力分立的問題所以我們再次呼籲在野黨的委員不要因為這些政治"},{"start":25505.66,"end":25530.788,"text":"在可能在對立或對壘的釋憲案的政治判斷來左右影響他對於大法官人事同意權的行使因為這些案子只有2% 1%你們的專業應當更要用在98%的人民權利義務的申請案您同意吧是好那我們有很高的共識下一頁"},{"start":25532.011,"end":25556.968,"text":"另外也非常不幸的是非常多的政黨跟政治人物不斷的鼓動民粹去就個案來包圍司法機關您作為司法從業人員您認為這樣的行為要被譴責還是應當節制還是可以容忍我覺得應該要給司法獨立審判的空間"},{"start":25557.799,"end":25587.139,"text":"而且這是違法的規範司法為什麼司法機關是作為極有的禁制區就是為了讓司法從業人員能夠獨立判斷不受民粹跟社會輿論的影響下一頁而更讓人可異的在演立委甚至去盲挺對於我們司法人員的安全跟權益造成侵害的這種暴力言論"},{"start":25588.319,"end":25611.791,"text":"不論是透過肉搜、獵巫、公審或威脅都造成我們守護司法人員沒有辦法做到我們要守護司法人員您作為可能的司法院的副院長、被提名人您怎麼給我們司法人員一個喊話、一個支持、一個鼓勵不受這樣子的威嚇"},{"start":25613.132,"end":25632.597,"text":"司法院永遠是大家最堅強的後盾我們捍衛審判獨立以公正公平法院為審判的核心思想永遠不會變對 我們要守護司法人員而不是放任縱容他們受到社會的霸凌"},{"start":25633.686,"end":25653.46,"text":"下一頁剛剛有委員當然會focus在法庭直播我想難得看到的審檢辯學還有醫事鑑定的團體跟民團對於急救章沒有討論倉促通過的法院組織法同聲反對"},{"start":25654.821,"end":25673.232,"text":"我更反對把一個重要的司法制度的改革作為政治交換的籌碼很遺憾就發生在立法院半個月前所以說對於法庭直播這件事下眼無論如何即便在朝野協商"},{"start":25674.434,"end":25695.777,"text":"的階段因為這個案子是委員會沒有討論近乎二讀最專業該討論的司法法治文會沒有辦法針對法院組織法法庭直播的部分來進行深究探討只能夠在韓院長主持的朝野協商短短的讓司法院的代表副秘書長表達大概兩分鐘左右的時間司法院"},{"start":25696.909,"end":25720.985,"text":"一直持保留跟反對的態度因為現在配套沒有做足倉促上路會造成很多嚴重司法人權侵害的後果但是無論如何惡法通過了惡法易法啦您認為未來如何在這個惡法上路之後您會鼓勵或者是期待行政院提醒復議嗎"},{"start":25723.132,"end":25745.938,"text":"行政院是不是要提復一是尊重他的職權所以如果說復一也是會輸了坦白講在這個國會生態當中復一案也完全沒有理性討論的空間但是未來如果這樣子的制度就是被迫上路他也已經被迫上路你們作為一個制度要去做很多配套的這個司法院你們該如何來進行"},{"start":25747.52,"end":25774.633,"text":"據我所知司法行政廳的幕僚他們已經開始在草擬司法相關的執法那要盡可能對於我們擔憂的司法人權的傷害對於訴訟當事人他自己全力的保障絕對不能被剝奪更不容透過這種直播的方式來造成全民公審的負面的影響他真的非常的可怕好最後下一頁"},{"start":25775.293,"end":25792.38,"text":"我其實後面有很多對於我們司法院的內部的挑戰我就非常簡單的跟您分享我的觀點我們一定要為司法人員減壓包括增補人力包括減少案源包括防度濫訴"},{"start":25793.761,"end":25811.836,"text":"加速推動訴訟外的紛爭解決的機制也包括要導入AI的科技來協助我們的人員分擔還有對於司法人員的心理調適的假期其實我非常的開心我讀了您的書面報告大概您都有提到了下一頁"},{"start":25812.697,"end":25833.702,"text":"司法人員呢20年還補不齊我強力的主張跟要求跟期待我們現在需求人力還有5536位真的20年也補不齊下一頁所以我期待如果您能夠容認我們未來司法院的副院長無論如何要發揮您過去在國民法官法的時候您跟社會溝通"},{"start":25834.602,"end":25863.064,"text":"您跟國會遊說很有經驗您也要強化跟行政院的人事部門來針對總原額法的修法來突破一萬五千人司法人員上線這個您可以promise努力去做是的我一定努力好那下一個許宗麗前院長的未竟之功也就是如何能夠來落實這個訴訟程序金字塔的制度讓一審二審不要翻來覆去來來去去造成司法資源的浪費對於訴訟當事人他也疲於奔命"},{"start":25863.564,"end":25890.639,"text":"當然對我們的司法人員他永遠在做同樣的routine的工作對於司法的效能跟品質沒有提升所以說下一頁我具體的這裡是反映出來這幾年我們的案件大量提升就您的報告也提到十年間司法總體收案量增加將近三成而未結的案件量增加百分之一百一十一所以呢下一頁我期許您落實二零一二一年"},{"start":25891.559,"end":25918.095,"text":"立法院修訂完成的民事訴訟法要對於濫訴的部分該駁回該裁定就要支持法官勇敢去做不要基於害怕考積你要支持啊不要因為這法官擔心他如果駁回了人家的這個濫訴的案件然後會影響他的考積這個部分你可以承諾來具體達到嗎法律的規定我們一定支持好那在下一頁"},{"start":25919.016,"end":25929.387,"text":"那你們是不是同意你能夠加速在上任之後來制定調解法針對這個ADR的制度來解決這個案源過多的問題"},{"start":25931.254,"end":25956.369,"text":"這個是大家一個都相當同意的用訴訟外解決紛爭的機制然後現在也是一直在推不只是民事訴訟刑事訴訟也有還有家事我期待你們可以加速未來立法院有了新民意的立法院也能夠來支持最後導入科技我們過去所上路的智慧化裁判草稿自動生成系統似乎受阻了是不是還會強化來推進"},{"start":25958.926,"end":25965.172,"text":"這個部分在有一次司法院的研討會上有討論就是AI的部分到底要用"},{"start":25970,"end":25991.245,"text":"我知道它有爭議 執行上面有個法律問題但是畢竟這是水中科技來取代的任命有解不凡 我想司法院不要放棄行令最後一項我可以直接主持提到也就是我們的心理調試下我已經成功爭取所有的工作人員能夠獲得一年三天的"},{"start":25992.085,"end":26019.379,"text":"我希望未來的執法人員高壓的執法人員也能夠來適用他們的盛情調治期待你上來之後努力來追蹤他們我們一起加油如你所說的要建構獨立公正專業效能的執法我們一起努力我們一起領域很多外部不當的政治家作為一個凡人要有背包"},{"start":26022.176,"end":26039.487,"text":"好謝謝謝謝謝謝吳斯堯委員的詢問也謝謝被提名人的說明謝謝請被提名人喝口水"},{"start":26049.462,"end":26056.928,"text":"好接下來我們請登記第五位翁曉琳委員翁曉琳委員詢問完畢之後我們將會休息十分鐘翁委員請主席好在此有請被提名人再請被提名人說明"},{"start":26077.239,"end":26101.508,"text":"蘇法官您好您這次被提名為大法官和司法院副院長這兩項重要的職位那麼被提名為大法官我想最重要的職責就是直施憲法的解釋扮演憲法守護者的角色那麼另外一個位置也很重要這是要去領導司法院和所屬的法院以及相關的司法人員"},{"start":26102.348,"end":26123.206,"text":"那么建立起司法独立以及公平审判的工作环境以及制度那在您今天的报告当中本席也拜读过了也提到就说您也知道就说现在人民对司法改革最深的期望就是希望有一个独立公正专业而且有效能的司法"},{"start":26124.363,"end":26135.758,"text":"可是我想今天在此之前已經很多委員有提到其實這些年來人們對於台灣司法的信賴度一直都是偏低"},{"start":26139.443,"end":26168.606,"text":"根據很多的民意調查然後甚至學術機構的調查其實台灣民眾信任法官會公正公平審理案件的比例大概就是差不多百分之二十百分之三十左右那麼在最近的TVBS的民調當中也針對賴清德總統他就職週年各項的施政表現來進行民調結果沒想到最後一名竟然是司法改革"},{"start":26170.028,"end":26194.935,"text":"說實在話看到這樣的民調我自己身為法律人我也感到非常的痛心這代表就是這麼多年來甚至在蔡英文總統當時口口聲聲的說要大力的推動司改但是沒有看到有任何的明顯的成效我不能說沒有成效而是真的沒有明顯的成效所以在這邊我想請教您您自己本身擔任法官超過30年"},{"start":26196.195,"end":26223.706,"text":"您怎麼看待台灣的法院不被人民信任的這個問題基本上我覺得司法它就是比較它不是一個容易去討好的一個工作就是譬如說我們的審判會有判就是有一半的人會輸或者是刑事案件是把被告關到監獄裡面去所以基本上它是一個做處罰"},{"start":26225.006,"end":26243.82,"text":"或者是判別人輸贏的這個角色他比較會有一半的人是不滿意的這是有可能但是呢人民對司法的這個鞭策跟他們的他們的感覺他們的信賴感我覺得這個是我們一定要去去重視並且要不斷的去努力了我剛剛有特別講過早期我們是在追求審判獨立"},{"start":26244.64,"end":26272.159,"text":"现在我们追求的是司法为民所以要以民意为依归要以人民的感受为感受好谢谢贝提米人的回答本身要这边强调就是整个台湾的司法的法治系统我们是效法日本跟德国当然近些年来也参考不少美国的法治我相信您一定知道日本的国民跟德国的国民对于他们的司法的信赖度有多高"},{"start":26273.444,"end":26302.65,"text":"德國的國民信脈這個德國的司法系統的滿意度是高達七成八成但是我們台灣這個形成這麼多年而且這個不同的不同界的司法院長也都大力的推動司改但是這個司法信任度是美下玉礦那我想對一般人而言其實評價司法公正其實最簡單的方式就是看到底司法有沒有雙標是不是法律之前人人平等"},{"start":26303.797,"end":26315.028,"text":"是不是王子犯法與庶民同罪我覺得這是一個非常簡單的指標您自己擔任刑庭法官多年您過去曾經有遇到過有庭審的案件嗎庭審 對"},{"start":26318.021,"end":26335.263,"text":"停止审判的案件几乎没有几乎没有除非是当事人生病很严重那种所以你自己本身在过去30年的审判的生涯当中你没有遇到过停审的案件当事人生病了他没有办法进行诉讼这种情况有"},{"start":26335.923,"end":26357.644,"text":"那大概最長是庭審多久時間庭到他的身體狀況可以所以我們大概會定期的去函詢醫院大概平均呢所以你們會定期的也會去見數不多對見數不多好那我在這邊跟您講台灣其實有出現一個大概舉世無雙的一個案子就是有庭審超過十年的案子"},{"start":26358.084,"end":26382.225,"text":"甚至本席去跟剿政署那邊調資料還有人保外就醫超過二十幾年的那麼為什麼會有這樣的一個情況我想陳水扁的案子您應該非常清楚他從2015年開始就申請保外就醫那麼2015年的5月13號他就申請裁定停職審判"},{"start":26383.962,"end":26396.161,"text":"但是在這個案子因為當時是這個犯了洗錢罪那這個案子就去依託多年那北院何怡婷在去年5月20號就認定陳水扁犯的這個洗錢案的追訴時效已經過期"},{"start":26398.527,"end":26424.101,"text":"那麼所以就判陳水扁免訴那當然現在這個案子還在上訴當中那麼最新是現在高院已經也受理有完成分案了還要再針對到底是不是免訴的這個議題再繼續進行審理可是您知道嗎陳水扁到現在還有幾個案子是庭審當中這個數字我沒有去特別記現在還有三個案子還有三個案子"},{"start":26425.416,"end":26454.435,"text":"所以为什么我刚刚讲就是说人民对于司法会不信赖以陈水扁这个庭审案来讲就可以知道有哪一个台湾人民这个可以像陈水扁这样的一个生龙活虎然后常常在外面演讲趴趴躁的一个受刑人可以庭审这么久而且甚至有一个案子都已经庭审拖过这个16年的时间然后竟然被判免诉那接下来的三个案子呢是不是也一样会拖过去"},{"start":26455.997,"end":26464.752,"text":"所以您未來假設有幸能夠成為司法院副院長您要怎麼去改變這樣的情況能夠讓人民認為說其實司法不是雙標不是遇到權貴就轉彎"},{"start":26468.752,"end":26491.072,"text":"法院会裁定停职审判应该就是有依据的比如说有医生出具的证明等等的那因为这几个案子现在都还在细数中所以我们就细数中的案件我们就先不评论好我想在这里我就是提出这个案子要让这个被提名人知道为什么人民对于司法不信任这就是一个活生生的例子"},{"start":26492.196,"end":26509.012,"text":"好那接下來呢我要再講的就是賴靖德總統他日前也講有提到就是在五五憲朝或是1946年所通過的中華民國憲法台灣沒有派員參加請問這句話是符合歷史的史實嗎"},{"start":26511.323,"end":26533.876,"text":"這個部分是總統的發言就是他應該有他自己的依據那我們也不辯評論但是這個是不是事實台灣是不是真的沒有支線代表去當時台灣省沒有派支線代表去參加支線據我在網路上面看到的就是有不同的說法或許利用這個機會大家就是會去找出相關的史實來進行討論"},{"start":26535.777,"end":26559.18,"text":"我觉得是还不错的机会可以讨论您接下来就要身为司法院副院长的提名而且要当大法官您要了解制宪的历史明明就是台湾当时就有审议会就选出制宪代表然后参加南京的制宪"},{"start":26560.626,"end":26573.213,"text":"那您才說這個有不同的意見我在這邊我真的覺得很不可思議在這邊的話我希望你要能夠了解這個就是事實台灣省當時就是有派出制憲國民大會代表去參與制憲的會議"},{"start":26575.86,"end":26597.45,"text":"這就是事實賴清德現在今天他說錯話他不更正道歉就算了但是您作為一個副院長的被提名人同時大法官的被提名人竟然連我們的制憲史都不清楚這個本性感到非常的這個訝異那接下來我要再請教您賴清德總統曾經說過中華民國憲法是災難這句話您認同嗎中華民國憲法是我們要守護的對象是所以"},{"start":26604.785,"end":26630.356,"text":"即便它可能有些不完美的地方但是我們還是要全力守護中華民國憲法所以在這樣的一個情況之下我想請教就是說因為作為大法官作為憲法守護者解釋憲法當然要重於憲法而憲法涉及到國家定位的問題請問在中華民國憲法的架構底下目前是如何去界定兩岸關係您如何去界定兩岸關係"},{"start":26631.916,"end":26658.841,"text":"憲法裡面規定說兩岸關係是由就是另一法律定制在徵修條文第十一條是另一法律定制所以我們後來才有這個兩岸關係條例的訂定那兩岸關係條例要怎麼訂定因為它比較涉及到很多的方面所以我們是尊重好不好意思打斷您的話那簡單來說就是目前兩岸關係到底是兩區關係還是兩國關係這個是關於這個政治問題跟統治行為並不是大法官解釋的範圍"},{"start":26660.831,"end":26681.404,"text":"我感到很訝異蘇法官這個事這麼清楚就定定在我們中華民國憲法還有兩岸人民關係條例裡面的規定您竟然說這個是屬於政治問題這不是政治問題吧這是非常單純的憲法問題跟法律問題在國家統一之前中華民國憲法就已經明確的講到"},{"start":26683.612,"end":26704.236,"text":"自由地區與大陸地區在兩岸人民關係條例你也是講台灣地區與大陸地區連這樣子的基本的這樣的概念您都不敢不敢說不敢去認同我們現在的國家定位嗎不是 就是法律的規定我們一定是遵守的是 所以你認為我們是不是屬於一國兩區的憲法"},{"start":26709.183,"end":26718.55,"text":"憲法並沒有這樣的一個憲法裡面現在概念就是中華民國憲法但是我們涵蓋大陸地區跟台灣地區就是"},{"start":26720.427,"end":26741.254,"text":"關於領土的部分確實大法官曾經有一個解釋說是我們不解釋就是我們不介入這是事先實務這個我真的是感到很要你連這樣子的一個簡單的命題你都可以很怕會得罪賴清德所以你不敢承認我們中華民國憲法現在所涵蓋的就是大陸地區跟這個"},{"start":26742.794,"end":26768.507,"text":"跟自由的台湾地区好那接下来我再次问就是最近呢这个有出现了一个新名字我们过去在讲立法院所制定通过的法案一般民众可能会讲我们这个是不是属于民生法案改革法案国安法案等等那么或是有些人称所谓的福国利民法案但是最近赖金德在团结第三讲当中他提出了一个新的类型叫做政治对抗法案"},{"start":26769.347,"end":26790.487,"text":"並且請大家看看現在在在野立法院所通過的法案到底有沒有是福國利民法案還是政治對抗法案所以我想請教您您認為什麼樣的類型的法案是屬於政治對抗法案我對於總統所提的這個政治對抗法案沒有了解所以他的這個團結三講你到現在也還沒有去看"},{"start":26791.572,"end":26809.244,"text":"就是就政治对抗法案的部分我没有很清楚好那我接下来我就请教你以下几个法案你认为是福利法案是属于福国利民法案还是政治对抗法案首先军人待遇条例的修正我们这次修正军人待遇条例增加志愿意和义务意的加持待遇你认为这是"},{"start":26810.245,"end":26833.539,"text":"民生法案是有利于军人的法案吗属于福国利民法案吗还是属于政治对抗法案这个我觉得它就是一个三读通过的一个法案然后对军人是有利的那警察人员人事条例我们这次也修法提高警校人员的月退所得替代率这是福国利民法案还是政治对抗法案"},{"start":26835.131,"end":26847.067,"text":"我跟剛剛答案是一樣的跟剛剛一樣的那柴建收支劃分法的修法調整中央與地方的稅收分配的比例這是對抗法案嗎"},{"start":26848.962,"end":26871.257,"text":"這個會涉及到權力分立垂直分立的部分那因為我自己沒有財政的背景所以如果委員要詢問的話我會再去了解另外憲法訴訟法的修法提高大法官的開會人數門檻和做成違憲判決的評議門檻這樣的修法是政治對抗法案嗎要看怎麼定義什麼叫政治對抗"},{"start":26873.721,"end":26897.58,"text":"這是賴清德總統他所提出的他認為我剛講這些法案都是政治對抗法案甚至連公職人員選罷法修法連署人要附上身份證影本這也是叫做政治對抗法案所以如果說這些都是叫政治對抗法案的話那麼大法官在面對這些政治問題的時候您認為是不是應該要自治退縮而不宜介入審查"},{"start":26899.435,"end":26913.77,"text":"確實到法官在面對政治問題的話就之前的釋憲的實務是認為政治問題不要介入政治問題政治解決是的那麼謝謝您在剛剛說明賴慶德總統很清楚的把剛剛那些法案都視為他是政治法案"},{"start":26914.691,"end":26939.818,"text":"現在是政治法案涉及政治問題我希望大法官之後在審查到底這些案件要不要受理的時候應該要注意這些屬於政治問題大法官應該要自治節制不宜介入審查接下來我還要再請教您您在過去長年審判生涯當中您曾經判過死刑嗎有大概有幾件死刑案"},{"start":26942.816,"end":26967.881,"text":"就是如果是主審的是一件如果是陪席的也有有一些已經因為太久了解大概就是大概也反正也不多嘛那就是評判法官的身份您個人的立場是支持廢死嗎我剛剛有回答過就是說廢死就是他不應該是一個非黑即白的問題對好然後我就是站在法官的立場就是我是根據法律還有證據來做判斷"},{"start":26969.403,"end":26970.384,"text":"對於憲八就是剛剛有提到說因為我是其中一個案子的"},{"start":26997.216,"end":27021.243,"text":"的陳審法官所以對於現巴就是可能比較不適合發表評論就是就是我們陳審案件的法官對於對於對於這個相關的案件法官的判決都已經做成了也沒有說什麼好這個不適合去評斷的話不過因為呢呃本期在看到您自己的自傳當中啊裡面有特別講到說你非常重視被告"},{"start":27022.323,"end":27050.444,"text":"与被害人及家属诉讼权益的横评问题那在这次的113号的宪判之八号的判决里面要求各级法院的合议庭法官一致决然后对于精神障碍或是其他缺陷者不能判处死刑那么即便是发生在判决之后或是等待执行期间也是不能够判决死刑那外界普遍都认为说这号宪法判决是严重的倾向被告还有杀人犯"},{"start":27051.184,"end":27073.89,"text":"那你認為這樣的判決符合您對於所謂的要把被告與被害人的訴訟權益橫平的標準嗎?縣八這號判決裡面確實對被害人的部分比較少琢磨在言辭辯論的時候好像也沒有被害人的代表到現場那這個部分我覺得將來如果有機會"},{"start":27074.77,"end":27101.659,"text":"或許在其他的解釋裡面可以就在做補強對於被害人的保護我覺得是就是我們大家共同的目標OK好很高興聽到您剛剛的這樣的意見那麼確實這一號判決我認為說之後有機會的話其實大法官還應該要做另外的判決再來做一些補充或是做調整的解釋那麼當然另外一個議題就是說在這次的現判八號現判八"},{"start":27103.98,"end":27131.57,"text":"的这个判决里面特别强调有关于法官一致决那这个也引起了很多学界还有民众社会上面的讨论那么特别是对在国民法官的审理案件上面如何的适用因为您刚刚有说这个大法官的宪判之八号解释他的设成不包含在国民法官审理案件但是事实上他的确会造成一个很严重的影响我们这样讲好了如果说今天国民法官"},{"start":27132.19,"end":27155.461,"text":"因為現在整個國民法官的法庭總共是九位六位是國民法官然後三位是職業法官如果今天六位國民法官做了一致判死決定另外的三位職業法官有兩位是贊成判處死刑其中一位是做出不同意判死的投票請問能不能判處死刑"},{"start":27156.721,"end":27177.716,"text":"根據憲判八的意旨就是職業法官三位都要一致所以也就是說等於一位職業法官的否定他就會否決了其餘的八位法官的意見是吧也就是說這一位職業法官他只是擁有龐大的否決權這是不是出現所謂反民主的問題"},{"start":27179.721,"end":27197.908,"text":"這個大法官在這個說明裡面他有提到一點就是說這是避免跟其他普通案件的職業法官的判決產生不一致的不平等的狀況因為我們的國民法官的案件也可能會轉軌成為普通就是由一般的法官來審理那就是對"},{"start":27199.048,"end":27228.388,"text":"好 謝謝本席是認為大法官當時在做相關的判決的時候根本沒有思考到國民法官案件的問題他也可能不清楚國民法官怎麼投票的那今天做成了這樣子的一個決定然後司法院也跟著附和這會造成就是說到底我們當初推國民法官的目的是什麼不是就希望國民法官能夠實現心中的正義嗎是不是有辦法實現正義嗎不行啊因為他只要被一位職業法官他就被打敗了"},{"start":27229.868,"end":27254.596,"text":"所以這個問題是很嚴重的好那接下來本期要再講就是說是剛剛有提到有關於就是其實蠻多人基本上現在對於大法官的憲法判決都有一些批評或是有表達不同的意見您認為這個人民您是否支持人民可以用公投也是用更大的民主的方式來表達對大法官的判決贊同與否的意見"},{"start":27256.533,"end":27282.267,"text":"公民投票法它的性質就是在學術上面有人認為簡單來說您支不支持嘛您支不支持人民可以通過公投的方式來表達對大法官判決的意見贊成與否的意見我支持還是不支持因為我的時間快到了公投法所規範是人民的創制跟覆決那就是"},{"start":27336.204,"end":27344.887,"text":"好 謝謝翁曉琳委員的詢問也謝謝被提名人的說明 謝謝請再喝口水"},{"start":27346.513,"end":27351.641,"text":"好 报告全员会我们休息十分钟十分钟之后我们请林月琴委员询问"},{"start":27953.376,"end":27955.998,"text":"主席 麻煩我們請副院長被提名的那個舒舒爾法官 謝謝"},{"start":27981.269,"end":28005.783,"text":"再請備題名人說明委員好書法官午安國民黨民眾黨一再論述人民不相信司法但本席的經驗是人民有爭執的時候都習慣相互提告把仲裁權交給法官"},{"start":28007.793,"end":28024.266,"text":"這是相信司法的表現所以您認為國眾兩黨說的是事實嗎我必須這樣說就是我們這幾年的案子一直在增加事實上也代表了另外一個含義是人民信任司法他要把他的糾紛把他的身家財產交給法院來做判斷"},{"start":28030.148,"end":28050.726,"text":"您過去呢積極參與我們的司法改革也致力於刑事相關的修法跟國民法官的制度在你的經驗裡面也可以看到您對人權保障和憲政的意識的重視那外界呢對你有很高的期待希望你可以延續我們國家對人權價值的重視"},{"start":28051.526,"end":28069.211,"text":"所以请问你过去的经验比较多事上是刑事的审判也推动很多刑事相关的修法像是刑事诉讼法的修订你认为这些经验对你未来担任大法官工作的优势是什么为什么国家要把这个职务托付给你"},{"start":28069.85,"end":28099.27,"text":"是的,過去刑事訴訟法的修法基本上都是跟憲法息息相關,因為我們說刑事訴訟法是小憲法,是一個憲法的策正儀,它裡面所提到,像我剛剛所提到的包含被告的強制辯護權或是他的越卷權,都跟他憲法16條的訴訟權有關,那跟羈押有關的修法是跟憲法第8條有關,所以相關刑事訴訟法的修法基本上都是跟憲法相關的。"},{"start":28101.791,"end":28125.557,"text":"那另外就是我相信對於大法官的職務你應該都事先有些規劃所以請問您上任之後有哪些工作是你任內要達成的目標我希望可以這一個就是加強被害人的保護剛剛我們一直在強調這個被害人的權益是要被保護的然後在這個還有如何加強"},{"start":28126.918,"end":28140.983,"text":"就是被害人保護其實在我任內已經通過了被害人的訴訟參加然後他在法庭上面的隱私還有在法庭上面如果他要做隔離的話相關的措施我希望可以更加的落實"},{"start":28142.023,"end":28166.298,"text":"那另外的話是法官的這個訴訟的就是案件的壓力實在太大還有司法人員那我們整個法院的這個人才的流失非常的嚴重我希望可以有機會來實行我們剛提到的這個司法檢壓的工作那在你報告也提出來說要建構專業有效能的司法那你怎麼建構這專業有效能的司法"},{"start":28167.129,"end":28190.69,"text":"我有特別提到說希望可以重視法官的審判經驗因為法官的審判經驗的累積是非常重要的它也是一個國家審判文化的重要的基礎所以我希望可以透過對於審判的尊重還有專業知識的加強然後讓法官可以更專業譬如說統一法律間接或者是精緻量刑等等"},{"start":28191.837,"end":28216.592,"text":"但你也提到司法要減壓來穩步向前那你怎麼去做到司法減壓司法減壓其實它不是一個容易的工作是因為我們並沒有太多的資源重新投入那就我們現有的人力跟物力我們除了去做盤點之外那我們當然希望可以這個就是譬如說在制度面我們要防止爛數然後要推動這個ADR"},{"start":28217.572,"end":28237.646,"text":"就是這個訴訟外的紛爭解決的這個機制那我們有很多退休的法官或者是憂鬱的法官他們願意回到法院來擔任調解委員在第一線來幫我們做這個訴訟外的紛爭解決那我覺得這是值得鼓勵的那另外像這個AI的這個應用的工具可以幫法官來做一些這個"},{"start":28238.907,"end":28260.108,"text":"就是減少重複性的技術性的譬如說筆錄或者是副表等等的我們可以研究讓它更簡化一點更重要的你也有提到說要連結國際來做司法交流因為的確數位時代各種法律爭議無遠弗屆跨國存在那你要怎麼去做"},{"start":28261.229,"end":28281.594,"text":"我會提到這個特別是這個譬如說我們現在很注重的打詐打詐跟洗錢他其實都是涉及到其他國家的那我們希望跟這個其他國家的法官可以交換經驗然後知道說他們他們國家在面對相同問題的時候是怎麼處理的我們可以累積我們自己的專業能量"},{"start":28284.335,"end":28311.733,"text":"去年十月底那司法院院長跟副院長還有另外五位大法官屆期滿那目前在任的大法官只有八位可是去年立法院通過了憲法訴訟法修正案那提高了憲法法庭做成判決跟暫時處分裁定的門檻變成至少要有十位大法官來參與評議而且要宣告違憲的話至少要九位大法官同意"},{"start":28314.495,"end":28332.486,"text":"今年1月25號生效可是現在只有8位大法官等於憲法法庭是停擺的那憲法法庭事實上是台灣憲政體制的最後守門員要有足夠的大法官憲法法庭才能夠恢復運作你過去曾參加司法院的釋制第665號第775號"},{"start":28335.049,"end":28362.752,"text":"的釋憲說明會對憲政秩序跟我們的憲跟裁判的憲法審查都有研究所以目前憲法法庭受理的案件還有385件是沒有結案裡面有98%是人民的申請案如果這個大法官缺額的現況持續下去的話是否已經是構成我國憲政危機而且影響到人民的權益所以請問一下你有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":28363.312,"end":28385.39,"text":"跟委員報告如果我們從憲法訴訟法施行111年開始一直算到113年期間新收的案件有6867件那我們來看這個申請人的身份到底誰來申請呢如果是人民申請的案件有6805件最多他佔的比例高達99.1%"},{"start":28387.492,"end":28401.74,"text":"就是說憲法法庭所受理的案件有99%是人民來申請的人民申請的是有關於他們的權益保障的他們基本人權的過去我們透過大法官的解釋就列舉的就是憲法第22條"},{"start":28403.979,"end":28426.816,"text":"列舉權力的部分包含人格權 隱私權原住民的文化權跟身份認同權我們都是用這樣的方式來做權力的保障假設我們沒有辦法開憲法法庭的話人民的99%的申請案件可能就沒有辦法來解決我看到憲法法庭的一個"},{"start":28427.721,"end":28450.126,"text":"專案的統計的分析他提到說這三年來憲法法庭的他做成實體判決裡面申請人是人民的佔了75.9%就是將近76%的案件都是跟人民的基本權利有關所以憲法法庭就保障人權的部分確實扮演非常重要的角色"},{"start":28451.021,"end":28473.3,"text":"相信因為你也是很重視人權的尤其這事實上是公民的權利因為這樣子的停擺可能影響到很多人蘇法官你在過去也擔任司法院的刑事廳長期間大力主導了推動國民法官的心智現在國民法官法施行已經超過兩年了"},{"start":28473.76,"end":28486.127,"text":"整體來說雖然現在國民法官起訴的案件還不是非常的多但增加的速度非常快去年的起訴案件數比前年提升大概60%那審結的案件數成長了4倍"},{"start":28490.629,"end":28505.107,"text":"但是在國民法官法上路之前跟之後都有法界人士提出來說檢辯雙方在這個制度裡面資源跟力量都是不對等的問題為什麼這樣講因為檢察官背後是國家組織辯護人卻是單打獨鬥的個人而且"},{"start":28508.611,"end":28531.056,"text":"會流向國民法官法庭的案件大多是屬於強制辯護類型是由法院轉介給法服的那減辯雙方在財力人力等等的資源都差距非常的大那在需要投入更多辯護心力的國民法官案件裡頭那減辯資源不對等的問題會更被凸顯請問一下你認為這應該如何改善"},{"start":28534.361,"end":28554.407,"text":"在國民法官的案件裡面減變的資源不對等在模擬階段其實我們已經有發現所以我們也很希望辯護人這邊可以增加他們的能量所以他們現在可能有些法院有義務辯護人或者是公設辯護人"},{"start":28555.367,"end":28570.007,"text":"我們在法官學院特別幫他們開課來做這個增能的這個方面希望他們也可以增強這一部分的能力那那個法律輔助的部分呢也有些律師來投入那希望盡量的能夠讓兩邊的實力可以對等"},{"start":28571.916,"end":28589.516,"text":"再續問就是說你認為未來該如何強化保障擔任國民法官的民眾因為過去有些研究如果擔任這個的話有時候他個人的個資保護權益甚至人身的安全保護還有更重要的就是心理健康支持怎麼去做"},{"start":28591.178,"end":28606.578,"text":"謝謝委員委員提到這個心理健康的部分確實在日本他們逼我們先實行他們確實有些他們的叫做裁判員他們裁判員事後他們也是有去做一個法院可能會提供一些心理的諮商"},{"start":28607.179,"end":28626.983,"text":"然後讓他們在這個案子審結之後如果覺得有需要的話可以有智障的地方我知道我們很多的法院也在做相同的服務如果國民法官在案件審理期間或是審結之後他們需要這樣的服務他可以跟法院來提出法院會提出一些協助的方法"},{"start":28627.463,"end":28638.096,"text":"然後至於說他們的個資跟隱私在審理期間我們都是不公開的就是這個部分是有保障的希望他們可以安心的審判"},{"start":28639.005,"end":28664.011,"text":"是未來希望如果真的有機會上任的時候真的要去注意到這一塊另外在第一期的國民法官判決案的新北市的濟姓婦人殺婦案六名國民法官裡面有五名事實上是男性只有一名是女性雖然不能說性別組成直接影響判決的結果但是在國民法官組成上的多元性跟代表性應該要更被重視"},{"start":28665.187,"end":28689.524,"text":"這一點請問一下你認為要怎麼樣改善好謝謝委員這一點我們在這個草案在草擬的時候其實就有人在討論說我們要不要設定一個最低的婦女保障名額之類的還有就是譬如說原住民是不是也要就是有一個保障名額那這個我們經過討論之後也問了在美國的專家他們認為你讓他能夠亂速的去抽籤反而是最公正的"},{"start":28690.476,"end":28707.937,"text":"我覺得未來真的要考慮尤其這種是家暴案裡邊那他不得已去做這樣事情就最後呢事實上判下來真的也是看起來是蠻重的大家都應該都還記得12年前軍事審判法修法廢除我們的軍事"},{"start":28708.737,"end":28723.666,"text":"是因為洪仲秋事件引發民眾的憤怒十萬人走上街頭抗議要求國軍改革當時蘇法官你是洪仲秋案的二審的審判長當時你審理之後也表示說希望軍方重視"},{"start":28724.867,"end":28744.269,"text":"中的人權問題不過當時廢除軍事法庭之後法界還是有很多的爭論今年3月耐心的總統因應我們的台海隨時可能發生危機也宣布恢復軍法的一個審判請問一下依據歐美的經驗你對台灣恢復軍法法庭"},{"start":28746.124,"end":28770.587,"text":"在專責審理軍人的案件的利弊得失有什麼看法其實是軍事審判並沒有完全廢除他是分平時跟戰時那我們現在的規定是平時是在一般的法院來審理那我剛好在103年的時候洪仲丘的案子上訴到高院是分的第一號案件是在我們那一庭辦的然後就是我們也親身的去經歷到這個"},{"start":28772.43,"end":28799.983,"text":"軍事案件確實有他專業的地方那軍事案件要怎麼樣的去設計他的審計制度或者是這個他相關的編制這個大法官的解釋已經有說明他是立法形成自由就是由代表民意的立法院可以來經過討論之後他來決定一個制度但這個制度呢你必須在憲法的原理原則之下譬如說他必須符合正當程序的保障他必須符合比例原則必須符合平等原則"},{"start":28800.563,"end":28826.622,"text":"只要你符合這些原則立法院可以自由的來設計制度我們給予立法院最高度的尊重然後當然就是在103年的時空背景跟現在已經有不一樣了需不需要隨著時間的轉移來做調整來修改軍事審判法我一樣的答案是說由立法院經過討論之後來做最好的判斷"},{"start":28830.905,"end":28858.315,"text":"今年六月底也就是兩個禮拜之前呢我們的法院組織法的修正案三讀通過新增我們的法庭直播的規定那司法院的一直表達反對的意見那其他的司法團體包含我一直好過去工作的團體像兒少婦女團體也都有非常高的反對的一個聲音因為畢竟"},{"start":28859.073,"end":28868.52,"text":"很多家暴或者是兒少保的案子並不適合那所以請問一下書法官你怎麼看這個法庭直播的這個問題"},{"start":28870.171,"end":28889.475,"text":"法庭直播現在已經是我們三讀通過的法律我們必須要予以尊重就法律審的部分它是採原則公開 例外不公開可以用適當的方法現在這個司法院應該已經在草擬相關的執法事實審的部分大家的疑慮比較多"},{"start":28889.935,"end":28917.11,"text":"那經過這個在最後的修法有一些但書的規定它的範圍有一點縮小但是就是很誠摯的希望司法院在朝你執法的時候要把在公聽會裡面大家所提到的這一些可能的疑慮要緊迫的排除就是譬如說他們擔心會妨礙真實發現然後是不是會有禁用司法害怕禁用司法等等的這個部分可能就是讓"},{"start":28918.15,"end":28946.925,"text":"司法的設計呢可能要注意到這些大家有提過的相關的問題最後就是本席一直很重視兩公約在台灣的實踐那也期望未來在司法體系裡面對被告人被害人那即弱勢群體的權益保障都要能夠持續強化讓司法爭議可以被確保因為通常弱勢的對於司法體系是更沒辦法了解也沒有更多的資源來去對應"},{"start":28948.123,"end":28960.784,"text":"所以此外本席也期待司法機構能夠持續的積極的加強跟社會的各界的溝通讓民眾更能理解我們司法改革的內容"},{"start":28961.403,"end":28982.698,"text":"並能夠更信任我們國家的司法系統所以關於這兩點就怎麼去加強人權的保障甚至加積極的強化社會溝通那我不知道蘇法官如果你上任的話你未來怎麼去實踐這兩個很重要因為你也本來就很注重人權的保障所以就這兩個問題"},{"start":28984.179,"end":29007.69,"text":"謝謝委員委員特別提到關於弱勢的保障那就是過去呢大家都以為譬如說社會救助法或者是這個這個CRPD等等的這個法案應該怎麼去落實事實上他涉及到的是憲法上的權利憲法上的社會權可以說是憲法譬如說第15條的生存權他這個這個生命權包含這個"},{"start":29008.59,"end":29029.898,"text":"你的生命的這個尊重還有生生命的延續國家要提供一個最基本的這個最最基本程度的可以過人性尊嚴的生活這個是人民的授意權所以呢關於這個社會救助還有這個CRPD相關的金融司法等等的我們都會非常的注意然後"},{"start":29031.079,"end":29047.539,"text":"第二個問題是說那個要如何跟人民溝通這個部分司法院有一個這個專門的部門是在做跟社會溝通的角色那因為社會的議題非常的多那他們用各種各種不同的方式譬如說這個辦司法迎戰"},{"start":29048.48,"end":29071.023,"text":"然後這個或者是用podcast等等的方式用比較人民現在比較新興的這個方式來跟他們溝通那希望慢慢的可以擴散出去讓人民多了解司法好今天就謝謝你謝謝好謝謝林昱月請委員的詢問也謝謝我們被提名人的說明"},{"start":29081.314,"end":29085.599,"text":"我再等你喝水我想你需要喝一口水好 謝謝接下來我們請登記最後一位吳宗憲委員請詢問"},{"start":29105.681,"end":29118.85,"text":"謝謝院長那我們麻煩麻煩再請貝提敏人請上台說明委員好"},{"start":29123.192,"end":29147.403,"text":"謝謝蘇貝提名人我想先跟您請教一下我們就直接切入正題跟您請教就是您在這次報告裡面有提到就是說擔任大法官主要是要保障人權那我想在民主社會裡面其實一個最重要的就是言論自由這個東西其實是一個最基本的人權那在憲法第11條還有大法官會議解釋445還有509號其實都說得非常清楚"},{"start":29148.163,"end":29172.613,"text":"言論自由他是一個人民的基本人權那國家本來就要給予他最大的保障那我想說我先跟您報告幾個狀況就是之前有網友他在Thread上面提到說陳菊走了結果警察在4個小時內就用IP馬上把這個人找出來那而且在晚上深夜23點45分就找到這個女子來說明"},{"start":29173.934,"end":29195.481,"text":"那當然大家就說警察抓詐欺就沒有這麼努力就是抓這個卻這麼快好那再來還有另外一個就是有民眾他去罷團的連署站去詢問一句說請問罷免賴清德是不是在這裡結果就被罷團報警然後被警察用社會法送辦當然就有法官認為這個根本不構成"},{"start":29196.461,"end":29216.278,"text":"那個騷擾所以我想請教 我想代替網友請教一下以及國人請教一下您是這次的司法院的副院長的被提名人請問像這種連問都不能問那個警察執法有沒有過當有沒有逾越比例原則會不會導致寒蟬消炎 我想請教一下您的看法"},{"start":29217.342,"end":29234.216,"text":"謝謝委員提問委員提到的是關於言論自由的部分言論自由呢大法官會議過去的這個事件的實務確實有非常多好的解釋是跟這個有關的那他們也強調說言論自由的重要性它是一個多元的民主社會非常"},{"start":29234.736,"end":29252.649,"text":"非常必要的所以要給予最高程度的保障那在實現實務上我們基本上就是採的這個雙軌理論跟雙接理論不用跟我談這個我想說當人民詢問這些日常的用語沒有傷害誰殺害誰等等就是日常用語"},{"start":29253.894,"end":29267.294,"text":"是不是在這裡投票 陳菊是否走了這個東西卻被警察在深夜去帶人卻被警察以社會法送辦這個東西您認為這沒有侵害到言論自由或是警察執行有沒有違反比例原則"},{"start":29268.527,"end":29285.166,"text":"後來是不是法院已經覺得沒有違法我想請教您的意見嘛從法院的標準是我是尊重法官的判決您的意思是尊重法官判決嗎我們法官已經做了判斷我們還是要有勇氣出來說明要對抗這個我覺得我先談一個"},{"start":29286.167,"end":29306.056,"text":"您是司法官三十期我是四十期我想我們念的書大概都是蠻類似就是吳根翁岳昇等等這些大法官他們以前寫的書我們因為級別比較近那我必須講這些人他們給我的感覺就是當他們在擔任大法官的時候他認為檢察官搜索權應該交給院方他認為"},{"start":29307.316,"end":29327.468,"text":"集會遊行不應該讓行政機關事先去審查一些有沒有危險性有沒有必要性他們都敢去衝撞剛時的政府其實這是我對大法官的一個深切的期待就是我希望選出來的大法官是勇於依據憲法而去告訴政府你做錯或是這個法律是有問題的"},{"start":29328.648,"end":29356.17,"text":"我覺得您一定跟我想法一樣嘛我們都期待大法官是有勇氣代表人民對政府發聲的那個人而不是說重要的問題我們不敢回答好沒關係那我想說我再請教您下一個問題柯建民前幾天他講了一個東西他說726大罷免之後要用刑法100條來制裁處理在野黨立委那我想請教您刑法100條的構成要件你知道嗎"},{"start":29357.212,"end":29375.743,"text":"是內亂罪那一條嗎沒有就是那個內亂外患罪是內亂罪那一條我個人是沒有聽到就是沒有聽到柯總召有這樣的發言那就是內亂罪基本上已經在實務上幾乎已經不存在我跟您報告一下"},{"start":29376.678,"end":29395.473,"text":"您畢竟是我們的大學姐 我跟您報告上個會期我就有提出我當年我還是高中生以及大學生的時候我參加野百合學運參加廢除刑法100條的遊行其實我覺得這何其荒謬今天在執政黨的立法院總召出來說要用刑法100條來辦我們這些立委"},{"start":29397.754,"end":29413.885,"text":"當年我學生的時候我站在街頭上陪著林三田老師陪他太太在街頭上面日曬雨淋要求廢除刑法100條有關思想犯的部分我們希望流亡在海外的異議份子能夠回到台灣結果幾年後他要用這個條文來辦我"},{"start":29416.806,"end":29441.922,"text":"我心裡是什麼感受當年我為了台灣人民為了這些流亡在海外的黨外分子我們在街頭這樣子為他們奮戰要求修掉刑法100條思想犯的部分今天卻被一個總召拿著據說刑法100條來辦我們這些在野黨的利益我想跟你報告一件事情其實我覺得這何其荒謬回想我過去這段人生我覺得何其荒謬"},{"start":29443.513,"end":29471.026,"text":"我們越走越回去了當年我還是個十幾二十歲的學生我就懂得要上街去捍衛這些異議份子的權益結果今天卻要有人要來這個辦我們這些例文好我這邊跟您報告這是讓我覺得何其荒謬啦台灣走到今天這個地步是委員我認同這個不能夠處罰思想反對那我想請問你喔如果有人在網路上面發言說他要顛覆賴清德政府請問一下這有沒有構成內亂罪"},{"start":29473.253,"end":29500.745,"text":"要看他實際的作為您說對了其實我們民主國家是不會去處罰一個人在腦中的一個想法所以我們的刑法100條從過往我們認為不應該有的思想犯到現在我們認為他一定要有實際的作為這個時候才會構成犯罪一定要有強暴或脅迫實施我們才會構成犯罪所以你單純說我要顛覆賴清德政府其實這個沒有構成犯罪"},{"start":29501.425,"end":29524.091,"text":"不能夠把台灣今天又走回以前思想犯的時代那會對不起這些先賢先烈我過往非常崇拜的這些人我覺得不管是鄭南榮不管是這些我覺得這些人他帶給我們當年那些理想跟著他們走結果今天為什麼會變成這樣所以我想一想我心裡是很難過啦"},{"start":29526.109,"end":29552.188,"text":"其實我市民的過世之前我有幸能夠有跟他遇到過有聊過其實我想今天這些民進黨的信徒真的對不起這些過往的這些人所以我真的只有一個感覺了責任日以遠典型在素行他們帶給我們很多很好的這些過往的例子可惜我們這一輩的人並沒有跟上他們並沒有把他們發揚光大所以我想"},{"start":29553.778,"end":29581.216,"text":"過去4.45還有6.44也都寫得很清楚國家不能因為集會遊行團體主張共產主義或分裂過渡唯有就禁止他們團體的設立或者是集會的許可所以其實大法官在過往已經很明確表示說今天除非你的言論達到危險 立即危險的程度否則國家不應該予干涉我也多次講其實所有法律人都很理解一個金句"},{"start":29581.836,"end":29597.066,"text":"就是我不同意你的看法但是我適時保衛你發言的權利我想大法官真的就要有這個風骨我不知道您認不認同剛剛委員提到了這兩號大法官的解釋我們都是尊重也遵守的"},{"start":29600.499,"end":29616.146,"text":"因為您是國民法官這個制度的推手我想請教您因為這一次我們憲法判決他變成說要求死刑案件法官要一致決那這樣子"},{"start":29617.774,"end":29637.552,"text":"這個東西跟當時那個國民法官法的修法方向就不一樣了啊 對不對那這樣子變成說一個專業法官他就可以推翻甚至六位國民法官的決定他一個人不同意就可以推翻這個就變得好像賴清德在第三講的說這個不是表決多數就是贏啦"},{"start":29637.972,"end":29658.165,"text":"那這樣子跟您多次對我上YT有看您有談到這個國民法官法的一些想法您說要帶入一些國民的意見民意進入判決中對不對那這樣會不會變成說完全就把您當初推動國民法官的這個概念就不一樣了我不知道您想法是什麼"},{"start":29660.219,"end":29687.031,"text":"有關於113年憲八的這個部分因為他37位申請人的案件都沒有適用國民法官所以他的判決裡面我們不講過去我們講未來不是37位就現有的國民法官法的規定他平易的規定一般的案件的平易的量刑是二分之一那如果是死刑案件的話要三分之二所以在設計上"},{"start":29688.211,"end":29702.666,"text":"跟大法官宪判是是是他在設計上面他就是死刑案件要特別的慎重那大法官宪判出來之後有關於這個國民法官案件要判死刑要怎麼判的時候他有特別提到職業法官也要三個人統一"},{"start":29703.827,"end":29708.57,"text":"這次中選會莫名其妙沒收了我們立法院議決的這個反實質廢死的一個公投那剛剛王宏威委員也有問你這個問題所以我想我不要再問因為我剛剛"},{"start":29721.958,"end":29742.029,"text":"王宏威委員在問你這個問題的時候我一聽到這個問題我立刻站起來站在電視機旁邊用力的聽看看您是怎麼回答他因為他問你說這個有沒有違法違憲中選會沒收這個我們立法院預決的這個公投結果呢我在那邊聽了半天你沒有給出答案有或沒有你沒有給出答案所以"},{"start":29743.271,"end":29765.923,"text":"我還是沒有聽到您最後的結論您鬧了一圈之後還是沒說所以我在那邊站了後我只跟我助理說我沒有聽到答案所以還是回到我一開始講的我認為的大法官是要有勇氣跟政府說你不對了你違法違憲了我們期待的大法官世界各國的大法官都是這樣子在設置所以"},{"start":29767.958,"end":29776.377,"text":"我認為就是要擔任一個大法官的人甚至當時自然院副院長其實要有那個勇氣說出結論您一定懂"},{"start":29777.369,"end":29797.822,"text":"中選會沒收立法院的決議這個東西有沒有問題有沒有違反權力分立的概念其實我覺得您都懂但是您剛剛並沒有講出答案我以為我可以說明一下嗎就是作為一個職業的法官我們對於一個問題一定是聽過兩邊的說法聽過辯論之後才會下最後的判斷"},{"start":29798.622,"end":29827.258,"text":"那您這個提問呢我之前講過說他確實有正反兩邊不一樣的意見如果將來他確實是一個成案的話我們有機會可以聽到兩邊的意見還有法庭自由的意見我們再做最後的判斷我尊重您這個說法但是還是沒有答案還是沒有我心中的答案並沒有得到解答那我再請教你其實我們在講就是你有提到說你們希望說司法是可以被大家所接受的"},{"start":29828.359,"end":29856.89,"text":"判決最希望說好的司法是一個判決是大家都能夠接受大家都可以的所以貼近民意的司法這個是被害人訴訟權法治化我們是不是要加強這一塊我想過往你也有這個很多有關被害人的一些論述嘛因為我想喔 憲判八辯論庭他其實有犯一個很大問題就是他從頭到尾他37位殺人犯的家屬都沒有到場陳述"},{"start":29859.591,"end":29874.856,"text":"我們看到的是過往很多很多的判決其實大家在乎的是這個人怎麼被殺死沒錯這是構成要件檢察官法官只在乎的是這個人怎麼死的被開幾槍被殺幾刀但是大家都忘了這個人當年是怎麼活的"},{"start":29875.396,"end":29904.26,"text":"他是怎麼樣他對這個社會的貢獻他對這個家庭的重要性他對他的太太的重要性大家都忘了所以我們都忽略了被害人家屬他在訴訟上面該有的權益就現在訴訟上面被告有權利告訴人有權利結果被害者家屬是沒有權利他講的話在法庭上面一點用處都沒有法官甚至不需要在判決書裡面提到也不需要在判決書裡面說明都不用也辯解都不用所以"},{"start":29904.68,"end":29921.995,"text":"這是目前我國制度的一個很不好的地方您也有談過這一塊我不知道您記得嗎好 謝謝委員提問關於被害人權益的保障你剛剛提到說被害人在量刑的部分他的意見可不可以進來事實上我們現在的辯論有分兩塊一個是法律的辯論一個是科刑的辯論"},{"start":29922.615,"end":29950.754,"text":"在現在的刑事訴訟法裡面就已經有規定在苛刑的辯論要讓被害人來表示意見就是有一個比較新的規定是在那個苛刑辯論的時候讓被害人也進來表示意見那被害人可以有代理人他可以請律師來幫他說他也可以透過檢察官因為檢察官是有對他有訴訟遭料義務他有相當的管道可以表達我跟您說明一下齁其實這段時間有很多死者被害人已經被殺死了死者的家屬來跟我們講"},{"start":29952.795,"end":29966.765,"text":"常常開庭都沒有傳喚他們到他們到場也沒有發言的機會甚至他們的說明也都沒有顯現在判決書裡面我想跟您報告15有這個狀況家屬一再以及律師一再的跟我們反映"},{"start":29967.626,"end":29990.12,"text":"所以我想我簡單的提一下以過往最近這段時間發生幾個例子真的請所有我們的法官檢察官以及大法官們都能夠知道一個點我剛說的不要只聚焦在這個人怎麼死你要想想他當年是怎麼活就像台南那個殺警案兩位警官衝到現場為了維護治安就被殺死他家人是多痛"},{"start":29990.76,"end":30013.765,"text":"那土城有一個劉警官他要攔檢那個獨駕的人結果他抓著方向盤被人家拖行到撞死那屍奪獎的那個女老師她只是為了幫家人煮一頓飯去買個東西然後就被殺死或是像新北戈侯案那個被人家砍了七刀他在現場叫那個同學不要再殺他了"},{"start":30014.065,"end":30037.147,"text":"一樣照殺所以很多時候我們法律人忘了人性尊嚴這件事情就像邱連功老師常說的你要創造一個富有人性溫暖的司法制度啊他要求我們要重視人性尊嚴啊不管在刑事訴訟或民事訴訟都很重要但是我們今天的法官 檢察官 大法官都忘了這一塊所以我常"},{"start":30038.368,"end":30066.626,"text":"再跟家屬談 談到最後我自己心情不好 甚至都流眼淚因為那個痛 即使我不是當事人我都可以體會到但是我們的實務以及我們的法官們都忘了這件事情所以拜託 不管您如果有幸擔任市長院副院長真的還是要積極推動被害人以及他的家屬在訴訟上面的參與權因為目前我國以刑事訴訟來說第三條的當事人其實並不包含"},{"start":30067.677,"end":30089.608,"text":"這些家屬你很清楚嗎那我們是不是我們的司法制度忽略了他們他們來跟我說他們是司法的孤兒他老婆被殺了就他是司法的孤兒這個真的是不應該我覺得制度不能忘了這一塊所以請問您您對於就是推動被害人的訴訟參與權您的想法怎麼樣"},{"start":30090.382,"end":30113.13,"text":"是的被害人的訴訟參與權是我在刑事廳長任內通過的法案被害人的權益要保障除了司法這一端當然還有很多的包含社政警政還有法務部這邊大家都要配合的地方是很多的如果法律已經有規定而我們的審判書的法官沒有確實做到的話我們會"},{"start":30115.371,"end":30143.51,"text":"這部分是您以往的主張我今天提出來也是讓您能夠說明而且讓國人知道你是支持這些被害家族在訴訟上權益的我們將來推動修法也請您那邊一定要多跟我們配合因為畢竟這個訴訟法是司法院在掌管的好嗎最後我想提一個這段時間我們遇到有法官跳樓司法過勞的問題有法官跳樓警察親身書記官過勞時"},{"start":30145.211,"end":30161.114,"text":"那當然你說像一般消防員也有工作太辛苦或工作場所太危險等等的然後奪走消防員的性命我想說政府對於基層公務員的權益我覺得是嚴重的漠視那這段時間我也提出了很多想法"},{"start":30161.454,"end":30183.268,"text":"那包括之前我也開了公聽會我也請了高院的法官現職已經離職的法官等等的都來說明講出點出問題在哪而且他們講的都非常的核心那我也多次找民事廳 刑事廳來開會討論那譬如說我們提到了避免刑事化的疏政調查程序以及避免二審完全覆審"},{"start":30184.208,"end":30204.135,"text":"這個都是能夠讓我國法官能夠減輕工作量能夠讓訴訟能夠繼續維持一定的品質的但是我等了一年多了我還是沒有等到因為一個立委最多一任就是做四年我等了一年半了我還是沒有等到司法院的任何回應但是那些法官我以前的法官 檢察官的同學們"},{"start":30204.935,"end":30220.788,"text":"他還在水深火熱啊他們常常打電話跟我講他們家庭也沒了 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Rick"},{"start":44.363,"end":69.778,"text":"很重要 check record 你知道嗎你過去的履歷啦你做的一些的事情 check record你的 check record 就是地檢署的主任檢察官高檢的主任檢察官你不覺得你來當司法院長底子有一點薄嗎太薄啦 太薄你感覺怎麼樣"},{"start":71.82,"end":98.712,"text":"你看以前的院長是誰翁玉生賴英照賴浩敏現在的許中立我對他也有一點意見啦是就這個處理事件的事情有一件可是好歹許中立是台大的教授你呢就是單朝一國從頭到尾就是"},{"start":100.729,"end":125.282,"text":"這個檢察署的主任檢察官底子深 身板很薄啦我都高度質疑喔這個賴總統提名你喔有點想把你拿來當炮灰準備被封殺的然後再激起朝野對抗就變這樣了我這樣講話你可以接受嗎"},{"start":126.839,"end":145.32,"text":"這個我沒辦法評論這件事情我沒辦法評論沒辦法接受喔那我另外告訴你你會比較喜歡聽到的說不定你不喜歡聽到那我就告訴你為什麼你被提名原因之一因為賴清德當立委的時候"},{"start":146.684,"end":155.77,"text":"他去檢舉指控2005年的時候檢舉指控雷學明收賄2000萬美金檢察官起訴第一個檢察官起訴是誰盧仁發第二個檢察官是誰就是蔡秋明就是閣下"},{"start":172.7,"end":183.89,"text":"你先不要講你就是盲從這個是誰寫的這個是陳昌文我們的法界"},{"start":185.464,"end":213.704,"text":"大佬寫的你就是盧仁發他這樣寫喔盧仁發濫權開端蔡秋敏盲從我要講這個字盲從跟著起訴結果呢歷經九年被判無罪被判無罪還要陪雷學敏將軍結果你現在到現在為止你是"},{"start":215.974,"end":245.272,"text":"並沒有受刑法125條濫權追訴罪的罪責所以你沒有被追責 照理講你要被追責啊你濫訴啊判了9年 他無罪 報告委員 這個案子我剛已經講了第三次 這個案子不是我起訴的無罪嘛 反而他是無罪的嘛 到現在無罪嘛雷先生無罪啊 你是起訴檢察官之一啊我不是起訴檢察官之一"},{"start":245.811,"end":247.072,"text":"前面有委員提到的 我就長話短說"},{"start":266.112,"end":282.677,"text":"所以如果不是我第一個講的情況來這裡當炮灰那是第二個情況他感恩戴德啊因為你抓到他的心他要他這個追究這個雷學敏你抓到他的心這個你還有話講嗎這個我要解釋的就是說"},{"start":292.931,"end":310.911,"text":"雷先生這個案子我不是起訴檢察官所以沒有什麼暴打之類的你有沒有簽字有沒有簽字簽字簽字啦你有簽字嗎我當時人不在台北地檢我怎麼簽字呢"},{"start":312.756,"end":332.908,"text":"所以跟您沒有關係?不是跟我沒有關係,但是這個案子我就不是起訴檢察官啊不好意思,你是什麼,扮演什麼角色?這個案子後來在公訴的時候,審判的時候我有參與立庭就是參與公訴活動是嘛,所以你有參與嘛,怎麼沒有參與,不然陳昌文不會冤枉你嗎?陳律師有點搞錯啦,有點搞錯"},{"start":337.577,"end":362.487,"text":"那你要求他更正啊他把它寫這麼大剌剌的這樣寫好 這個我們來看啦今天講 我跟你談這個廢死的問題憲法法庭做出一字決的實質廢死老實講 全台灣的老百姓反彈之大是非常的憤怒"},{"start":364.383,"end":391.24,"text":"老百姓85%是反廢死的結果因為民進黨政府他追求所謂的進步價值他跟著歐盟跑所以就要推動廢死但是這個大法官的一個憲法法庭很厲害喔他知道民意在這裡給你空空你愛好你"},{"start":392.867,"end":413.676,"text":"所以他說合憲可是呢你要判死刑每一審都要判死刑極有不可能啊所以就是實質廢死老百姓對這個事情到現在為止是不能夠放過這一群的大法官的憲法法庭的解釋這個你要不要表示你的意見"},{"start":416.997,"end":438.878,"text":"一三憲判第八號這個判決事實上是肯定死刑的存在他並沒有否定這個死刑等於沒有了他那個大佛跟四憲之後等於沒有了是的困難度會比較高等於沒有了等於台灣現在沒有死刑了"},{"start":440.568,"end":457.5,"text":"不能這樣推 我想這個不相等跟廢除死刑是不一樣的辭職廢死 我要講辭職廢死所以老百姓就會想啊 這個司法院啊司法院啊 老實講 已經變成 被內閣化了我給你舉例啊 注意看啊2023年 司法官學院的院長沒有經過遴選後 行政院拍板"},{"start":471.335,"end":496.937,"text":"國事會議改革消極應對無力主導2023到2024檢查一體的爭議默許行政體系掌控檢察權所以基本上來講你變成已經淪為總統府總統的一個司法局等一下我再跟你講為什麼現在可以看得到"},{"start":498.281,"end":522.823,"text":"賴清德總統為什麼要發動大罷免他現在就是兼總統權 行政權 監察權 考試權司法權 媒體權就獨獨的缺了一個立法權所以為什麼他非得搞大罷免要把我們都罷掉 希望拿到立法權就區權合一啊"},{"start":524.233,"end":546.962,"text":"齊全合一就超級大總統簡稱皇帝他要做這個事情你告訴我你的回答對我要不要投你統一票很重要喔雖然我對你諸多批評我不見得一定否定你喔我這個五十五十喔看你表現啊 盡你表現啊這個你要說"},{"start":551.138,"end":566.183,"text":"你如何外界已經認為司法院已經淪陷了 徹底淪陷了不再中立不再獨立就是內閣化就是內閣化 內閣的一環何其悲哀你如果當院長如何匡正這個事情關於政治解讀的事情我不方便評論"},{"start":575.238,"end":594.834,"text":"我的理解司法院不是總統的司法局我的理解是這樣憲法法庭還是能夠維持獨立審判獨立審判的空間這是我的認知 謝謝我們來看我們來看那個萊豬的視線就好了萊豬的視線萊豬的視線"},{"start":606.941,"end":633.127,"text":"這個很清楚的萊豬的失陷案地方政府想要說你中央規定我地方政府嚴格一點為什麼因為中央說不可以啊這個案子最赤裸裸的大法官徹底向當權者跪下來投降最好的例子"},{"start":635.472,"end":664.58,"text":"各地方政府為了他的老百姓健康我嚴格一點為什麼不可以我只有標示說這有來致還是沒有來致 不可以為什麼說不可以 因為美國說不可以美國爸爸說不可以所以中央政府就指定 不可以然後就去釋憲 釋憲大法官完全跟行政部門一樣我告訴你啊我為什麼說你們已經變成司法局"},{"start":666.111,"end":692.742,"text":"從蔡英文當總統之後所有的視線全部都是民進黨要的民進黨不要的一個都不會過現在為止一樣我們立法院立了法 我們代表人民我們的民力是百分之百請問你後面有幾票你沒有民力基礎 就是總統提名你我有民力基礎我有民力基礎"},{"start":693.874,"end":722.75,"text":"我文山區南中正選出來的立委我們假設的名利是百分之百然後呢最少我們過半通過了法律這個行政院不要了賴清德不要了就交給你們 你們就把他封殺誰看到這個事情好像拳擊賽一個擂台裡面行政司法 行政立法在那裡大家在那裡彼此的struggling然後"},{"start":723.956,"end":749.698,"text":"旁邊裁判就是你們你幫一邊啊 幫行政啊阿打一啊現在叫阿打一啊所有行政院不要的案子 通通丟給你們你們通通做的解釋 都是跟行政部門一模一樣這不是司法局 什麼才是司法局何其悲哀啊我講到現在為止蔡這個主任 你都沒辦法反駁我"},{"start":750.68,"end":771.636,"text":"我都講事實I'm talking fact我想事實我能不能稍微回應一下我想司法權確實不是民選的司法人員都不是民選那民選他沒有民意基礎這確實但是不民選有不民選的好處就是說他並沒有"},{"start":772.822,"end":785.059,"text":"黨派的利益 因為民選他有黨派所以呢 你們都有啊 結果都有啊司法權本來就有抗多數的這樣的特性這個叫做 counter majority"},{"start":785.816,"end":814.233,"text":"那這個在美國的一個學者你們不是抗多數而是抗人民啊你們的解釋就是抗人民啊我們是人民選出來的我們就立出來的法律你們要把我們推上你們是抗人民啊立法委員是有民意基礎是沒錯的當然是啊所以你們否定我們對不對這個行政院喔他的權利喔打一個巴掌過來呼籲然後呢還不夠輸了你們再來一個巴掌"},{"start":814.926,"end":827.283,"text":"如果大法官用選的那就更嚴重了好在大法官不是用選的沈政軍你剛說什麼我說大法官不是用選的啦因為選的他要對選民負責他就有政治立場"},{"start":828.322,"end":854.03,"text":"他不能有政治立場他提名有沒有良心啦他提名有沒有為了台灣這個社會現在全部綠化 綠油油的一片所以當然解釋的結果就是全部的綠化當然是一個司法局啊怎麼會司法院呢是不是 然後我們再看啊你們做的結果 你們做的一個解釋先是憲法法庭"},{"start":855.66,"end":885.086,"text":"跟民意差很多 沒有辦法推翻你你們說 哇 你們就是憲法 你們最大你們是神 奇怪 老百姓咧我們不是所有的 Everything我們所有的一切都為人民了人民的意思 人民最大人民可以用公投來推翻你們的解釋我們可以吧最低的 我們最低的一點點的請求期待"},{"start":886.467,"end":890.49,"text":"說人民用公投的一個結果來推翻我們要大罵官的這個憲法法庭的決策令這個問題算是蠻有趣的問題不是有趣還講有趣這個很有趣當然是很嚴肅的問題我意思就是說所謂有趣的問題意思就是說它是值得探討"},{"start":911.075,"end":927.208,"text":"但是現在目前由大院所訂的憲法訴訟法裡面,能夠成為憲法法庭審理的案件,它有明文的規定,規定得很清楚。"},{"start":929.19,"end":942.728,"text":"那其中並沒有包括說這個大法官會議的大法官憲法法庭的那個判決可以作為公投的標的沒有這樣規定我們公投項目加一個憲法法庭的歧視"},{"start":948.038,"end":974.054,"text":"解釋結果我們加一條就好了這條問題在你因為你想當院長的你的態度很重要白德威我剛才話沒講完一開頭沒講完你對於廢死的態度是什麼廢死的態度你慢慢回答仔細回答廢死的態度我想我剛已經提過就是我個人並不贊成廢死不贊成廢死那我有我的原因"},{"start":974.718,"end":978.882,"text":"好 原因不用講 我現在態度好來 我再給你看一張賴總統執政司法改革的表現民眾滿意三十趴不滿意五十倍趴差有夠多"},{"start":992.383,"end":1012.149,"text":"就是我講的啊因為現在司法院不再是司法院現在司法院就是司法局可悲自治啊真的悲哀了因為都從民進黨執政以後到現在為止所有憲法法庭所做的解釋全部favor"},{"start":1013.601,"end":1029.057,"text":"執政黨都是他們贏的在野黨一次都沒有贏過就很清楚啊所以只要我們現在立了法韓運長主廚這麼辛苦你看到我都替他這麼辛苦這麼聰明的一個人在這裡"},{"start":1031.032,"end":1059.26,"text":"努力老半天 案子過了 到你們那裡就宰掉了就宰掉啦我們一直想這個心很痛耶台灣是什麼社會為什麼立法院 人民選舉院立法院我立的法通過了 主席的垂直一敲還不算耶 全世界都算了 垂直一敲就算了不是喔 就等一等 後面在那裡大法官在那裡 他說NO"},{"start":1060.322,"end":1080.801,"text":"不可以的 不可以的很悲哀喔這個 蔡主任到現在為止我沒有聽到你有什麼辦法能夠來或者你敢不敢說 如果你當院長你最少有一件會解釋出來這個不會favor 要執政黨"},{"start":1086.482,"end":1110.257,"text":"我想純粹的政治性案件那應該憲法法庭是不會受理的萊豬怎麼是政治性的案件呢萊豬是跟大家的健康有關係啊吃在家裡時間久了健康出問題啊這什麼政治事件呢或者是行政事務的案件行政事務"},{"start":1112.87,"end":1131.207,"text":"另外一個我們關心的題目很少人問你我要問你一個問題很嚴肅台灣的青少年被大馬金屯纏死到處可以見到大馬的萃取物比如說電子煙 比如說加熱煙"},{"start":1133.561,"end":1149.054,"text":"而且你去看到 你都很清楚 你是警察官啦在監獄裡面好高的比例啊 過半都是毒 有關係啊現在大麻在我們的衛街裡面 它是二級毒品對不對你贊成合法化嗎我個人不贊成合法化你要公開講 大聲一點喔我個人不贊成大麻合法化"},{"start":1167.355,"end":1174.168,"text":"好 反對齁那我希望這個假如你當院長"},{"start":1177.631,"end":1204.798,"text":"這個絕對不能輕放因為一直有人想要推動大麻合法化想要學泰國想要學其他有些國家說從娛樂性的開始用然後什麼地方等等的我覺得這個害死我們的下一代害死台灣這個非常的重要最後一點就是大麻合法化"},{"start":1207.865,"end":1222.889,"text":"絕對要反對絕對不能容於台灣的社會這一點非常重要也請這個蔡主任你緊記這個不管你有沒有當院長我覺得這個大家一起來努力好不好謝謝好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝賴思寶委員的詢問也謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}