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84.658,"text":"個人或者一個情形那是不是國家在這邊應該要更進一步的去做相關的配套措施跟補救措施那不過這是大院的權責基本上我是尊重大院在這方面只是希望能夠大院在這方面能夠更積極的來做這方面的一個補助"},{"start":585.376,"end":611.117,"text":"我剛剛講的其實性侵害的對象其實是兒少我講的是兒少的部分在他們真的長大能夠面對這些事情或是在權力稍微能夠對等的時候他來提出這樣子的一個為自己權益來做一個保障我剛剛的問題您可能還沒有回答就是對於所謂的性侵害的被害人這個所設的不管是刑法也好或者是民法也好這個所設的這個所謂的這個有效的期限是不是構成違憲"},{"start":613.399,"end":631.548,"text":"我認為這個可能我想以目前的狀況當下的現實狀況來講可能會有違憲之餘那是否真的有違憲因為基本上司法還是要看到事實證據跟相關法規的部分那法規的規定如何才能夠"},{"start":632.188,"end":660.214,"text":"那如果這被害人他主張在刑法跟民法的時效當中這個制度其實他的經驗其實這個部分我們的解釋是違憲的那您認為大法官是不是可以透過所謂的釋憲給予更彈性的一個法律解釋基本上大法官可以在立法者還未進行這個立法漏洞的一個填補過程當中來可以填補這樣子一個漏洞但是最後還是要尊重大院有關立法將大法官所提出的相關的原則"},{"start":661.374,"end":678.702,"text":"來透過具體的法律更明確的予以規範我想現行這個求償期限的一個設計其實往往都忽略了這些兒少性侵害的被害人他們的一些特殊性那另外他就是他們能夠自主求償的一個能力的一個限制其實反而造成了實質上的一個侵害這個你同意嗎同意"},{"start":680.7,"end":695.416,"text":"接下來也是很多在校園當中我想這個最近大家也都一直不斷的在討論就是老師的權益那關於所謂的校士會議的一些爭議那我想您自己本身也是教授"},{"start":696.016,"end":711.416,"text":"那也在校園當中其實也教書那我想呢這個近期在教育的現場出現的一些狀況特別是講到校事會議的一個設置跟運作當然也引起了很多的教師們他們自己本身的一些討論那同時呢也引發了一些爭議"},{"start":712.577,"end":732.24,"text":"那我講的這個核心就是在於這個所謂的校事會議它作為一種所謂的調查的一個機制那其實在運作當中往往都會涉入比較主觀的人士的一個判斷甚至逾越了所謂的這個公平公正的一個界線那變成一種處分的工具或者是變成一種處分的"},{"start":733.221,"end":755.227,"text":"這樣子的一個手段其實反而侵害到了所謂的教師受憲法保障工作權對於所謂的程序正義落實造成了一個非常重大的一個挑戰喔那我想呢這個教師的工作權受到憲法第15條的一個保障喔但是在缺乏正式的行政處分跟程序還有法律依據的時候學校到底有沒有這個權利用所謂的調查會議的名義"},{"start":757.748,"end":784.841,"text":"針對所謂的教師來產生這樣子的一個調查啟動的一個方式會對他們的一個工作權益會不會造成一個比較不利的影響報告委員這是有關教育專業的部分基本上呢必須要由教育學者專家來針對這個部分來做探討那至於當然就法律人來講基本上整個做出任何的調查程序等等都必須符合正當法律程序符合比例原則"},{"start":785.501,"end":800.442,"text":"透明公開原則等等這些的一個程序的規範所以說在這種情形之下學校的調查程序如果能夠最好能夠是在法律或法律授權的辦法裡面去明定那依據這樣的程序"},{"start":800.922,"end":819.213,"text":"其次呢這個調查程序可能必須要有不同的背景這方面專業背景的參與包括教育學者老師本身以及法律專家等等這些才能夠如果進行這樣調查程序才能夠符合所謂的我們的公平的原則"},{"start":819.932,"end":838.351,"text":"那就您這個法律人的一個角度你怎麼樣來界定這個內部事務的調查跟對人事權的實質的處分這個範圍來做這樣子的一個分界校事會議到底有沒有辦法可以提供所謂的申辯跟救濟那如果沒有這個是不是已經違反了這個當法律程序的一個原則"},{"start":839.312,"end":866.122,"text":"如果沒有法律授權或法律規定的話基本上是不可以做這樣對教師工作權各方面的一個限制的這個部分那這個部分因為本身不是在教育法領域裡面所以我們只能從憲法的一個第八條人身自由的正當法律程序以及相關的行政程序來說明這個部分不過還是要強調一點最重要還是要法律的規定跟法律的授權才可以進行這樣的調查程序"},{"start":866.544,"end":887.053,"text":"因為教育自治其實是憲法重要的一個原則所謂的這個教育自治但如果校內的制度其實侵犯到了老師基本的權益您認為國家要不要介入那大法官是不是應該可以要求調查程序正義在憲法的層次上有一個比較明顯的一個規範明確的一個規範你怎麼樣來看這個所謂的憲政層次的一個張力"},{"start":893.233,"end":919.046,"text":"我贊成必須要有正如剛才講的必須如果現在目前的規定沒有符合法律保留法律授權以及相關的正當法律程序等等這些的話我想這些都必須要透過立法者那如果立法者沒有做的話基本上大法官如果有到釋憲有這種狀況的話原則上應該在這裡可以做補充性的來填補以保障老師的工作權好"},{"start":920.27,"end":942.74,"text":"那最後一個部分我想請教的就是說我知道陳教授這個過去其實參與不少所謂的這個轉型正義的一個座談那您認為這個轉型正義是法律政治還是憲法層次的一個問題那我想大家都知道其實轉型正義其實不是為了要撕裂我們的社會而是要讓我們歷史的傷痕不再重演"},{"start":943.14,"end":968.96,"text":"那唯有面對過去的整個不公不義還原真相那另外還有平反受害者我們才能夠真正建立人民對於國家體制的一個信任讓憲政民主的一個制度它有一個穩固的一個根基這是其實轉型正義的最重要的一個目的那我想請教就是陳教授您是否認為這個轉型正義是屬於憲法當中它雖然未明文"},{"start":969.4,"end":996.695,"text":"但卻具有所謂的憲法未接的國家義務報告委員我本身留學德國對於納粹時期相關的不正義的事項我們都非常的這樣子深刻的理解所以轉型正義一開始應該是從二次世界大戰開始之後各國所面臨的後來因為東歐的整個共產國家崩潰以後"},{"start":997.555,"end":1023.752,"text":"所形成的相關的這些內容包括還有南非等等這些這是一個憲法層次或者是法哲學層次的法正義理念的實踐那正如委員剛才所垂詢的基本上這並不是一種報復而是讓未來的人民能夠理解這一段的歷史未來不應該再重蹈覆轍來維護整個自由民主的憲政秩序"},{"start":1024.417,"end":1052.318,"text":"因為在台灣也有白色恐怖也有228事件其實到現在其實受害者的心靈或者是受害者他們自己本身的家屬其實還沒有獲得這樣子的一個平反的機會喔所以其實轉型正義是非常重要那也就是說這個雖然憲法沒有明文的規定我們的轉型正義啦應該可以這麼講但是在國家的憲法上面其實我們應該要有義務去積極的揭露真相補償受害者跟追"},{"start":1053.118,"end":1077.706,"text":"追究加害者的一个义务 这你同意吗是 我赞成那大法官怎么看如果我们透过视线来要求国家对于所谓的历史的不义的行为来负起具体的一个责任请问如果将来您是大法官您怎么看待这样子的一个题目那另外就是请教您怎么看所谓的转促条例的程序跟成效是"},{"start":1078.486,"end":1107.562,"text":"報告委員 基本上剛才盧委員所推詢我已經跟各委員報告了基本上轉型正義是要讓後來的人民能夠了解以前有這樣的一個不正義的狀況造成國家甚至民主的一個慘痛的一個過程所以說大法官在這個部分上基本上從我們的憲法的法理等等為了維護法正義等等這些內容上"},{"start":1108.002,"end":1135.22,"text":"基本上是可以得出這樣的一個結果不過這個問題基本最重要還是最前端的由立法者跟行政權對府衛我記得歷任的政府不管任何政黨執政都針對這件事情有去做過非常多的補償救濟等等這些內容但是我是認為還是不足夠的所以說未來的政府應該繼續朝這個方向繼續的努力除非有不足的地方"},{"start":1135.84,"end":1151.057,"text":"或者是因為人民在這方面有更進一步的受到侵害這種狀況之下有提起憲法訴訟細數的時候大法官當然要對這個維護法正義的理念來做出補充的說明"},{"start":1151.778,"end":1167.178,"text":"當然我們其實也聽到了有一些不同的聲音我假設這個問題只是假設如果未來有聲音要主張廢除所謂的轉促條例您認不認為這可以用違憲審查是可以介入的"},{"start":1169.553,"end":1184.172,"text":"轉述條例這個部分呢基本上是立法院通過而且現在目前在實施未來如果是不是要看這個條例本身他的立法的目的是否已經完成如果認為 違憲審查可以介入嗎"},{"start":1186.313,"end":1203.558,"text":"您認為報告委員因為我沒有完整的去看到這個內容我沒有辦法去看違憲審查的譬如說他侵害到人權或者是他有違反的相關的這個問題我實在是很抱歉我沒有看到具體我也不希望非常直覺跟委員"},{"start":1206.199,"end":1217.002,"text":"我們提供給您一個方向如果將來您是大法官的話其實這個有可能會碰得到的一些狀況跟問題那也提供給陳教授做一個參考是好謝謝謝謝郭委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時24分）有請陳教授。"],["主席：請被提名人答詢。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：陳教授早安。憲法法庭從去年到現在，一直都是處於停擺的狀態，憲法法庭大部分、有95%以上聲請釋憲的應該都是人民，對目前憲法法庭癱瘓中的這樣狀況，您有什麼看法？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，因為我們憲法訴訟法有修改，當然尊重大院的職權，但是各國有關憲法訴訟法相關的規定都有原則跟例外，或者我們說非常態的一個規定，但是這次憲法訴訟法針對這個部分好像並沒有看到，所以才會造成這樣對人民權利保障上可能會有所中斷，不過這是大院的職權，尊重大院的職權。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們當然也很遺憾看到這樣的結果，因為有很多人民聲請的釋憲案，到目前為止還是停放在那個地方，沒有被解決，我想訴諸憲法法庭聲請釋憲其實是人民最後保護自己的一個手段，但我們真的並不樂見這樣的結果。","我想請教陳教授，前一陣子我們看到新北土城發生了嚴重的家暴命案，這件事情也讓社會大眾開始議論紛紛，這名男子就是行兇的加害者，明明已經被核發了保護令，但是仍然在開庭之後對兩名女性施暴，甚至直接造成兩名女性的死亡，在這個案件當中，我們看到家庭暴力防治法在實務運作當中，可能也出現了一些法律明定，就算他違反了保護令，法官可以裁定羈押，但是在實務上，我們看到法官羈押裁定的比例其實還是偏低，導致保護令對於加害人的強制力不足，您認為現行的羈押制度在比例原則之下，是不是足以保護受害者？如果在制度上，它無法防範明知有暴力風險的人再次的加害，這是不是真的構成了憲法保障人身安全失靈的狀態？請教您，如果將來您擔任大法官，那會如何從憲法的觀點來審視這類制度的漏洞？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，多元憲法秩序之下要保障的人權，從未出生的胎兒一直到成年、到年長者，甚至到對死亡者的整體保護，這整個保護的過程及整個制度的配套，都是國家應該負起的義務，在這個保護義務之下，會透過行政跟立法兩者之間的協力來制定相關的政策、法規，並且執行，在這些內容當中，因為個人曾經擔任過非常多法規委員，法規委員會的委員對於各種修法的規定跟建議，在這個過程當中，我深深體會到徒法不足以自行，因為很多的法律規定都是很抽象的，必須靠實務的整個發展來加以配合，當然實務上也要靠我們的公務員能夠有同理心，一起來補充這些法律的不足。"],["郭委員昱晴：我進一步來請教陳教授，我們講的比例原則是不是可以在這一類高風險的情境之下，讓位給被害人保護優先，這個部分，如果將來您是大法官，您的見解如何？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，報告委員，事實上比例原則因為這種現實的狀況出現了非常多，在修法方面，基本上要透過相關的配套措施，更加嚴格的來針對相關的漏洞來加以填補，但是這些漏洞的填補還是沒有違反比例原則，所以，基本上我贊成在這個部分要更針對實務上的實例來補充法律的漏洞。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛講到實例，我們看到很多家暴事件當中都有兒童涉及，那就您的觀點，您怎麼看待兒童最佳利益原則在憲法當中是不是具有實質的拘束力？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，兒童的利益是憲法保障的重要法益，特別在我們臺灣少子化的情形之下，而兒童又是毫無反抗能力或完全沒有自衛能力的基本權主體，所以在保障上面應該要更加的強化，主管機關應該要有這方面更強化、更積極的作為。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果未來有人就類似的案件聲請釋憲，主張羈押制度對於被害人保護不足而構成所謂的違憲，您認為大法官有沒有機會可以有介入的空間？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：大法官的解釋或判決，基本上是在補充立法的不足。但是，大法官一旦透過原則性、補充性等各方面的解釋以後，最後還是希望透過立法機關依據解釋或判決的方向來訂定法律，補足這些法律的漏洞。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，了解。接下來我想要再請教的就是兒少性侵害，這是社會非常沉痛的一個議題，也是不可以忽視的創傷之一。這一類的犯罪不僅僅是對於所謂的少年或者是兒童造成長期的影響，而且是長達好幾年，不管是心理上或是在精神上，他其實都受到這樣子的傷害跟不正義的對待。","我想國家其實有責任要回應這樣子的一個需求，針對像兒少性侵害的司法制度上，能夠在其整個成長的過程當中保障被害人。但是，我們刑法跟民事求償的部分，對於性侵害犯罪的追訴期限，還有民法對於侵權行為所設的要求損害賠償的期限，這兩者都是有期限的，但是往往這個固定的期限時間，許多兒少如果遭遇到這樣的不幸事件的時候，他長期心理上的恐懼，而且在遭受權力不對等的多重壓力的狀況之下，其實往往都沒有辦法在期效，也就是在期限內主張自己的權利，這是我們看到的一個現狀。","我想，陳教授，性侵害對於兒童來說其實是非常隱晦，而且是非常深層的一個傷害，當然對於少年亦然，在整個所有的壓力、權力不對等，或者是他無法在法律規定的時效內去提起訴訟，是不是也同樣地忽略了憲法所保障的身體自主跟人格尊嚴，還有他自己本身的救濟權？您認為在某種特定的情況之下，對於性侵害的被害人設定這樣一個絕對的時效，有沒有構成違憲的問題？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，剛才陳玉珍委員提問有關死刑的問題，本來要補充回答一個問題，在這邊是否容許我一起補充？"],["郭委員昱晴：可以。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這段時間大家都在討論有關死刑的問題，但是都沒有針對，我們說活著更痛苦，也就是被害家屬身心靈傷痛的照顧，這是國家很重要的一個義務。一樣的情形，基本上對於受性侵的婦女或是兒童整個身心靈的創痛跟照顧，國家在這個部分是非常不足的。特別是未來，剛才講到有關期限的問題，起訴期限的問題，這些內容基本上可能會讓受害者面臨一個夢魘，就是未來還可能會再遇到這樣一個相關的個人或是情形，是不是國家在這部分應該要更進一步的去做相關的配套措施跟補救措施。不過，這是大院的權責，基本上在這方面我是尊重大院，只是希望大院在這方面能夠更積極地來補足。"],["郭委員昱晴：我剛剛講的性侵害的對象其實是指兒少，我講的是兒少的部分，在他們真的長大能夠面對這件事情，或者在權力稍微能夠對等的時候，他來提出這樣的一個，為自己的權益來做一個保障。我剛剛的問題您還沒有回答，就是對於性侵害的被害人，不管是刑法也好，或者是民法也好，所設的所謂有效期限是不是構成違憲？您只要回答我這個問題。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我想以目前的狀況，以當下的現實狀況來講，可能會有違憲之虞，那是否真的有違憲，因為基本上司法還是要看到事實、證據跟相關法規的部分，要看法規的規定如何，才能夠來跟委員報告……"],["郭委員昱晴：好。如果這個被害人主張在刑法跟民法的時效當中，就他的經驗，這個部分我們的解釋是違憲的，那您認為大法官是不是可以透過所謂的釋憲，給予更彈性的法律解釋？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：基本上大法官可以在立法者還未進行立法漏洞填補的過程當中來填補這樣子的漏洞，但是最後還是要尊重大院有關立法，將大法官所提出的相關原則，透過具體的法律更明確的予以規範。"],["郭委員昱晴：現行求償期限的設計其實往往都忽略了這些兒少性侵害被害人的特殊性，另外就是他們自主求償能力的限制，其實反而造成實質上的侵害，這個你同意嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：同意。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來，在校園當中，最近大家也一直在討論老師的權益，關於校事會議的一些爭議。您本身是教授，也在校園當中教書，近期在教育現場出現了一些狀況，特別是講到校事會議的設置和運作，當然也引起很多教師本身的討論，同時也引發了一些爭議。我想這個核心就是在於校事會議它做為一個調查的機制，其實在運作當中往往都會涉入比較主觀的人事判斷，甚至逾越公平、公正的界線，變成一種處分的工具，或者是變成一種處分的手段，其實反而侵害到教師受憲法保障的工作權，對於所謂程序正義的落實造成一個非常重大的挑戰。","教師的工作權受到憲法第十五條的保障，但是在缺乏正式的行政處分程序和法律依據的時候，學校到底有沒有這個權力用調查會議的名義針對教師啟動調查？對他們的工作權益會不會造成比較不利的影響？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，這是有關教育專業的部分，基本上必須由教育學者專家針對這個部分來做探討。當然，就法律人來講，基本上做出任何調查程序等等，都必須符合正當法律程序，以及符合比例原則、透明公開原則等等這些程序的規範。所以說，在這種情形之下，學校的調查程序如果能夠的話，最好是在法律或法律授權的辦法裡面去明定，依據這樣的程序。其次，這個調查程序可能必須要有不同的背景、這方面專業背景的參與，包括教育學者、老師本身，以及法律專家等等，如果進行這樣的調查程序，才能夠符合所謂的公平原則。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。就您法律人的角度，你怎麼樣來界定這個內部事務的調查跟對人事權的實質處分，就這個範圍來予以分界？校事會議到底有沒有辦法提供申辯跟救濟？如果沒有，這個是不是已經違反了法律程序的原則？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果沒有法律授權或法律規定的話，基本上是不可以做這樣對教師工作權各方面的限制。這個部分因為本身不是在教育法領域裡面，所以我們只能從憲法第八條人身自由的正當法律程序以及相關的行政程序來說明這個部分，不過還是要強調一點，最重要還是要有法律的規定跟法律的授權，才可以進行這樣的調查程序。"],["郭委員昱晴：教育自治其實是憲法重要的一個原則，但是如果校內的制度侵犯到老師的基本權益，您認為國家要不要介入？大法官是不是應該可以要求調查程序正義在憲法的層次上有一個比較明確的規範？您怎麼樣來看這個所謂的憲政層次的張力？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，正如剛才講的，如果目前的規定沒有符合法律保留、法律授權，以及相關的正當法律程序等等的話，我想這些都必須透過立法者，如果立法者沒有做的話，基本上如果有到釋憲這種狀況的話，大法官原則上應該在這裡可以做補充性的填補，以保障老師的工作權。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。最後一個部分我想請教的就是，我知道陳教授過去其實參與不少所謂的轉型正義的座談，您認為轉型正義是法律、政治還是憲法層次的問題？","我想大家都知道，其實轉型正義不是為了要撕裂我們的社會，而是要讓歷史的傷痕不再重演，唯有面對過去的不公不義，還原真相，平反受害者，才能夠真正建立人民對國家體制的信任，讓憲政民主的制度有一個穩固的根基，這其實是轉型正義最重要的目的。","我想請教陳教授，您是否認為轉型正義是屬於憲法當中雖然未明文，但卻具有所謂憲法位階的國家義務？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我本身留學德國，對於納粹時期相關的不正義事項，我們都非常深刻的理解，所以轉型正義一開始應該是從二次世界大戰開始之後，各國所面臨的問題，以及後來因為東歐整個共產國家崩潰以後，所形成的相關這些內容，包括還有南非等等，這是一個憲法層次或者是法哲學層次的法正義理念的實踐，正如委員剛才所垂詢的，基本上這並不是一種報復，而是讓未來的人民能夠理解這一段的歷史，未來不應該再重蹈覆轍，以維護整個自由民主的憲政秩序。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為在臺灣也有白色恐怖，也有二二八事件，其實到現在受害者的心靈，或者是受害者的家屬，其實還沒有獲得這樣子一個平反的機會，所以轉型正義非常重要，也就是雖然憲法沒有明文規定轉型正義，應該可以這麼講，但是在國家的憲法上面，其實我們應該要有義務去積極的揭露真相、補償受害者跟追究加害者的義務，這你同意嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，我贊成。"],["郭委員昱晴：那麼大法官怎麼看？如果我們透過釋憲來要求國家對於所謂歷史的不義行為負起具體的責任，請問如果將來您是大法官，您怎麼看待這樣子的一個題目？另外，就是請教您怎麼看促轉條例的存續跟成效？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，如剛才委員所垂詢，我已經跟委員報告的，基本上轉型正義是要讓未來、後來的人民能夠了解以前有這樣的一個不正義的狀況，造成國家甚至民主的一個慘痛過程，所以大法官在這個部分，基本上，從我們憲法的法理、為了維護法正義等等這些內容上，是可以得出這樣的一個結果。不過這個問題最重要還是最前端的，由立法者跟行政權對於撫慰，我記得歷任的政府，不管任何政黨執政，針對這件事情，都有做過非常多的補償、救濟等等這些內容，但是我認為還是不足夠的，所以未來的政府應該朝這個方向繼續的努力，除非有不足的部分，或者是因為人民在這方面有更進一步受到侵害，這種狀況之下，有提起憲法訴訟繫屬的時候，大法官當然要對於維護法正義的理念來做出補充說明。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然我們其實也聽到了有一些不同的聲音，我做一個假設，這個問題只是假設，如果未來有聲音要主張廢除所謂的促轉條例，您認不認為這是可以用違憲審查介入的？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：促轉條例這個部分基本上是立法院通過，而且目前在實施，未來要看這個條例本身的立法目的是否已經完成，如果認為……"],["郭委員昱晴：違憲審查可以介入嗎？您認為呢？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，因為我沒有完整的看到這個內容，我沒有辦法去看違憲審查的狀況，譬如它侵害到人權，或者是它有違反相關的問題。我實在是很抱歉，我沒有看到具體，我也不希望非常直覺跟委員回答，這樣是對委員的不尊重。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒問題，我們提供給您一個方向，如果將來您是大法官的話，其實這是也有可能會碰得到的一些狀況跟問題，也提供給陳教授做一個參考。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員、謝謝被提名人。","下一位請柯志恩委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"163115","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163115","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292bf3deec3e66dae2a4e71d587566aeaab6e7cc5fac58dbda5aab3cf16057514ebe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:52:43 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有請陳慈揚被提名人被提名人打選"},{"start":26.363,"end":46.05,"text":"委員好陳貝提名人早安檢視您的履歷過去學術以及行政閱歷豐富相信您一定了解大法官的主要職責是釋憲也就是憲法的守護者也就是要確保國家機關的行為符合憲法的規定但是非常弔詭的是"},{"start":47.83,"end":74.064,"text":"2017年您被提名為考試委員的時候也曾經到立法院來備詢當時您在答詢的時候清楚地表明了我國現行的憲政體制是一個問亂的憲政體制現在曾被提名的人可能反過來作為守護這樣一個曾經被您批評是問亂的憲政體制想請教您如何面對這樣一個與您過去理念相互矛盾的立場"},{"start":74.764,"end":104.026,"text":"又要如何能夠守護這個曾經被您評價為問亂的憲政體制呢好 謝謝委員報告委員剛才在陳玉珍委員在詢詢的時候我已經本來要回答就是作為一個學者既學住自由包括憲政體制司法行政立法都可以批判但是呢作為一個體制內就如同我當時擔任考試委員一樣就必須遵守整個憲政體制的規定"},{"start":104.366,"end":129.42,"text":"是 對不起 所以您的意思是您還是認為憲法是混亂的只是您願意持續守護這個混亂的憲政是這樣嗎憲法不是混亂 是它的制度的問題所以現在憲法又不是混亂了啦行動原則喔 您說的是混亂喔所以現在憲法不混亂了嗎我只是指憲政體制不包括人權保障所以憲政體制現在還是混亂的那你要來守護它"},{"start":132.272,"end":154.672,"text":"對憲法來講 八年一瞬 但是您卻濁是驚非昨天可以很混亂 結果今天現在要來守護憲法我可以說您是最不適合守護憲法的人本席過去也有了解一下您過去的事蹟您在2007年和陳明通教授 陳英賢教授共同起草了中華民國第二共和憲法草案 簡稱台灣憲法"},{"start":156.594,"end":181.044,"text":"雖然當初主要有目標是法理台獨本席是不支持的部分的內容本席不支持但是裡面有一些內容的精神本席卻蠻有興趣的譬如說總統需即化您在這一步您號稱的新憲制度設計當中將憲政體制從總統制要改為內閣制顯然是有看到總統權勢過重可能帶來的影響政黨對決可能對國家造成的危害"},{"start":185.386,"end":207.836,"text":"內文當中也說了如族群分裂資源內耗政府空轉等請問被提名人啊您被總統提名為大法官人選前有沒有跟賴清德總統討論過要建議我國應該要把體制改為內閣制啊您剛剛說制度問亂嘛避免因為總統獨大政黨對決造成族群分裂政府空轉的危害有沒有跟賴總統提過"},{"start":209.059,"end":222.941,"text":"沒有沒有提過那今天賴總統提名您來擔任大法官卻連基本的政治理念和學術立場都沒有搞清楚您沒有責任跟他提一下嗎還是您現在要說賴總統自己沒看文件啊"},{"start":224.224,"end":251.161,"text":"報告委員這是尊重賴總統的這個自由的決定自己的這個跟我一個平凡的教授我想沒有辦法去做任何的一個建議哇突然間從提名人又變成平凡的教授你是被提名要擔任大法官的人啊沒有關係等同於現在剛剛您這句話已經向全體國民宣告"},{"start":251.801,"end":277.27,"text":"這是一份完全不負責任的名單啊要立法院如何同意沒有關係我們要來看啊如今賴總統的這些專權獨斷獨行的行為其實都在不斷加劇社會的分歧不論是將不支持他的人都說成是雜質或是為了政治目的要來抹滅歷史將96.2%的國人都列為其餘人口"},{"start":277.89,"end":295.487,"text":"以及一昧的對抗擁有多數民意支持的立法院種種作為甚至遭到外媒紐約時報直接批評可能淪為對岸加大對台軍事施壓的藉口我們應該要反過來詢問陳倍庭名人"},{"start":296.548,"end":324.954,"text":"在被賴清德總統提名以後您還認同您18年前的主張嗎我再給您一次機會你還有想要防止總統專權對國家對社會造成的危害嗎還是您在賴清德取得權力您被提名以後就覺得現行的制度好棒棒我的學者立場不變但是在這裡尊重大院修憲的權限所以您認同應該要推動內閣制"},{"start":327.498,"end":355.88,"text":"至於制度選擇當然都是由大院所以您認同總統制有可能會專權對吧這是我學者的一貫立場那現在的立場是什麼 您現在是被提名人我不是詢問學者我的學者立場一貫不變現在的立場所以你還有學者人格跟大法官人格啊是這樣嗎不是 因為如果擔任大法官基本上是憲政的職務要遵守憲法沒有關係啦 那所以您之前學者的研究"},{"start":356.46,"end":378.229,"text":"根本資料都不用附上了是不是啊所以現在的陳馳揚啊已經在打臉18年前的陳馳揚啊 是這樣嗎打人手短 吃人嘴軟 是這樣嗎該不會又是時空環境不同現在還多一個角色不同啊中華民國的憲法這幾年都沒有變變的只有是凝聳考試委員變成大法官被提名人"},{"start":379.07,"end":391.33,"text":"這種屈原附事讓人懷疑的行為根本沒有資格擔任大法官但是接下來我還是要繼續請教陳被提名人您目前被提名擔任的是哪一個國家的大法官中華民國"},{"start":392.469,"end":417.997,"text":"沒錯您一定曉得大法官的職權之一是宣告政黨解散之判決根據憲法第77條訴訟法第77條政黨之目的或行為危害中華民國之存在或自由民主之憲政秩序者主管機關內政部得申請憲法法庭為宣告政黨解散之判決想請教您"},{"start":418.897,"end":444.211,"text":"日前民進黨的政治人物同時也是內政部長劉世芳在民進黨公開宣講的場合高喊要讓賴清德做台灣國的主人這樣的說法實質上是不是應該已經危害中華民國的存在啊如此一個危害中華民國存在的政黨您是否認同內政部應該要申請憲法法庭宣告民進黨解散"},{"start":445.502,"end":468.392,"text":"報告委員這個條文是從德國參照過來的德國裡面特別重要的一點是必須以暴力脅迫或用武力的方式來破壞一個國家的存在跟自由民主憲政界我現在講的是憲法訴訟法第77條我不是在講刑法100條喔你不要自己在這裡把幽魂拿出來喔"},{"start":469.312,"end":495.877,"text":"我再問一次假如內政部向憲法法庭申請裁判你是否同意剛剛這樣的說法民進黨是一個危害中華民國存在的政黨憲法訴訟法規定是把憲法徵修條文拿過來作為他的一個職權我講的是憲法訴訟法第七條解散政黨的部分這樣子有沒有應該要被解散政黨這個要符合暴力脅迫用武力的方式"},{"start":496.581,"end":518.461,"text":"好,沒有關係,暴力脅迫大家有很多定義啦那我再請教,您認同這個說法當中總統和人民的關係是主人和奴隸嗎?是嗎?絕對不是,我們是一個國民主權的國家請你朗讀一下憲法第一條中華民國基於三民主義為民治、民友、民享之民主共和國"},{"start":519.564,"end":530.75,"text":"順序上有點錯誤但是沒關係 謝謝您民有民智民享所以這個說法絕對有沒有違憲台灣中華民國的主人要變成賴清德"},{"start":532.162,"end":557.177,"text":"報告委員 我在4至445號裡面提到有關主張共產主義跟分裂國土我認為這樣的言論是基本上是政治言論是言論自由 這應該尊重所以內政部長自己有解散政黨的權利他也可以有言論自由總統也可以有言論自由我現在講的是民進黨 執政黨內政部長跟賴清德總統啊"},{"start":562.338,"end":582.925,"text":"是言論自由因為政治如果擔任政府職務的話會被限縮顯然啊您剛剛突然發現了您的大腦也有角色扮演的時空錯亂啊人事時地物只要不同啊憲法的解讀啊正義的解讀在您心中就有所改變"},{"start":584.105,"end":604.777,"text":"我還是要來問陳貝提名人您30年前曾經在學術研討會上發表過有關立法院對預算審查案絕弦範圍的看法當時您指出今日社會由於自然及社會人文科學的不斷進步政府事務繁重所遇規範事務增多"},{"start":605.197,"end":634.196,"text":"所以對人民對國會的要求不斷的增加而是希望國會積極的督促政府使政府在各方面的事務上為主動之作為因此我國憲法第70條對於預算而修正權的禁止似乎未考慮到現代國會在政府施政上具有積極引導的作用也就是說啊30年前您主張憲法第70條立法院應該要有所鬆綁"},{"start":635.137,"end":657.237,"text":"他對預算增額的權利您30年前開創性的看法可以說是許多學術巨擘往成莫及請問陳貝提言30年後的今天社會變化有沒有更快啊自然科學有沒有更快啊AI有沒有變得更快啊請問您對放寬立法院預算額修正權的立場有沒有更加堅定"},{"start":658.378,"end":676.889,"text":"這是我學者的見解但是要修改憲法70條憲法70條的規定必須由大院來修改那我現在問的是您的見解啊陳被提名人是學者也是被提名人的見解啊剛才我已經講過我學者的見解不會改變"},{"start":677.489,"end":704.023,"text":"那現在的見解呢現在見解學者不會改變但是這只是我們要尊重憲政體制修憲權在大院剛剛陳玉珍委員問您啦你說我們國民黨黨團給你的問題上面叫你放棄你學者的身份很抱歉啦 您搞錯了是您自己的答案說您要脫離學者研究見解的堅持是您自己要脫離的沒有人叫你脫離喔進來啦 我們要知道齁"},{"start":706.964,"end":718.895,"text":"這些說法根本讓您表達出您在國會殿堂上不敢本於職權說出你自己內心的真話就表示你不是一個合適的大法官人選我們進來要來繼續看美國總統川普"},{"start":722.458,"end":750.037,"text":"要做各種的關稅政策現在可能25%可能15%可能35%我們都希望台灣可以穩定的經濟發展我想您30年前的堅持我們希望您自己要感到欣慰也要持續的支持我們認為這才是您有機會作為大法官的風骨接下來時間有限我想要繼續問陳貝提名人其實我很佩服你"},{"start":750.777,"end":774.247,"text":"我想AI持續發展也應該要重視環境所以您過去曾經對環境法的領域發表多篇的專書和著作甚至曾經在環境法總論當中提到國家對於環境有積極保護的義務即便對於國家的義務透過第三人來達成最終保護環境的責任還是要由國家來負責"},{"start":775.767,"end":786.477,"text":"請問您是否支持環境權入縣也就是在憲法當中明定環境權為國家英語保障之基本人權是不是還持續堅持這是無庸置疑的"},{"start":787.298,"end":810.627,"text":"很好 同樣的著作當中您也提到受汙染者可以由國家在確保權利上面來主張他們的生存權以及保障人身權的自由人民要免於國家的不法侵害以及受到干擾國家要給予基本權力保護如果基本權受到侵害的時候人民可以依憲法第16條提起救濟"},{"start":811.767,"end":833.428,"text":"我想問目前颱風丹納斯襲擊南台灣摧垮屏東外海的太平洋光電輔板說經濟部替廠商發文說這是一個測試說光電板在颱風來襲前就已經移除結果貼文裡面就有光電板被網友說這是薛丁格的光電板"},{"start":833.968,"end":858.303,"text":"無論是光電板還是浮台造成環境的污染是事實請問被提名人為了捍衛您一直以來提倡您剛剛也確認提倡了環境權國家應該要提供服務生態保存的立場你是不是支持在地民眾採取法律途徑來進行救濟甚至在所有法律途徑用盡以後可以向憲法法庭申請裁判"},{"start":859.604,"end":877.972,"text":"我是尊重但是國家應該更要更積極在為提起救濟人民提起救濟之前就應該採取比較積極的作為很好很好所以針對經濟部表示如果有媒體或網友再提屏東光電板事件將向警方報案"},{"start":878.832,"end":891.903,"text":"以示警惕啊請問站在大法官被提名人的立場您贊成政府自己沒有先處理好就以告發為手段企圖要侵害人民的言論自由嗎請回應我反對很好我想齁"},{"start":895.509,"end":909.476,"text":"在這裡我們可以看到所以您是反對經濟部這樣的態度對嗎你反對國家要用這種態度對待我們的人民對吧如果經濟部有這樣的態度我反對現在已經是事實所以你反對吧如果是的話我反對"},{"start":910.583,"end":933.048,"text":"事件發生至今經濟部對於媒體、民眾以及專家學者的提問採取已讀不回的態度甚至要提告的方式要侵害人民的言論自由甚至要打壓第四權我想您今天站在國會的殿堂你說你反對你有沒有公開表達過任何一句話除了我們在這裡詢問您以外"},{"start":935.146,"end":957.315,"text":"報告委員因為如剛才跟其他委員報告過的我已經8年沒有從事環境法研究沒有機會在那個檔核裡面去做現在的國家針對環境有非常多錯誤的能源政策希望您可以好好補上最後您在報告當中的自我期許裡頭表達要擔任憲法的守護者"},{"start":958.095,"end":985.451,"text":"但是呢我希望來問您一下您如何解答這一條復議時啊如今全體立法委員是二分之一以上決議維持原案行政院長應即接受該決議憲法內明文表示啊行政院長就要接受啊結果呢我們的行政院卻在復議遭立法院否決以後跑去釋憲申請暫時處分完全沒有依憲法規定來行事你怎麼看待行政院這種行為"},{"start":986.571,"end":1008.371,"text":"報告委員 院長應該要接受所以說好像 雖然有提起暫時重溫等等是不是已經生效了 法律是不是已經生效了這是不是事做已經是接受了我想您站上質詢台前就應該要了解您現在要背書要捍衛憲法的政府跟現行的狀態要做好功課啊"},{"start":1009.131,"end":1026.184,"text":"這個案子真的是違憲像財化法為例行政院在2月27號提出復議並且在3月10號被立法院否決結果行政院卻在5月21號提出釋憲這樣完全違背憲法最高性原則的行為"},{"start":1027.165,"end":1052.46,"text":"司法院絕對不能放任 憲法都寫明了行政院長應該即接受決議行政院卻不斷挑戰憲法的用字解釋您憲法守護者 你是不是給我們一點保障報告委員 附議跟憲法訴訟是一個法律究竟一個是政治的途徑他直接違反憲法徵修條文第三條第二項啊"},{"start":1053.51,"end":1063.467,"text":"你要守護憲法啊行政院帶頭違反憲法從政治途徑來講他應該是接受了所以說就是法律已經生效了"},{"start":1064.053,"end":1088.106,"text":"他提出釋憲 所以您之後也會接受就對了沒有 釋憲是另外一回事釋憲是法律途徑所以您現在正在曲解這一句行政院長應急接受您一分鐘前的說法 您現在又不同意了我們要再次期許你作為憲法的守護者你要捍衛憲法的最高性"},{"start":1088.706,"end":1111.589,"text":"不要為了政治目的迎合其他人去曲解憲法條文這種做法不要再次出現我時間有限啦我還是要再詢問在行政院對憲法訴訟法提出附議失敗以後您剛剛說嘛附議失敗就接受啦有嗎有接受嗎我們來看一下傳出民進黨要求建議大法官要自提處分"},{"start":1112.35,"end":1136.232,"text":"而不告不理是司法權的標準法官應該要被動行使職權否則就是求人間裁判請問如果有政黨行政單位要求建議大法官如何做事對司法下指導期政治的手要伸到司法的體系以您的法學素養這樣的訴求這樣的行為沒有問題嗎發生這樣的狀況您覺得司法院應該要怎麼做呢"},{"start":1136.994,"end":1163.935,"text":"如果有這種狀況 司法權應該基於超然的地位不予接受 如果有那應不應該予以譴責 這不是如果 這是已經發生那剛才委員已經垂詢了說司法應該被動了 不告不理所以縱使如果有的話 基本上司法權是不應該接受但是要不要譴責 不是司法權應該主動去做任何表態的"},{"start":1164.355,"end":1176.071,"text":"好 我想依據中華民國憲法第80條明文規定法官須超出黨派以外依據法律獨立審判不受任何的干涉"},{"start":1177.062,"end":1203.977,"text":"我們看到現在台灣執政黨這樣的行為啊可以說是公然的毀憲亂政啊那你說不告不理嘛那現在有民眾要告有政黨要告您是不是會接受啊剛剛有一個政黨疑似這個違憲啊剛剛有政黨的說法直接違反憲法第一條這個說法更甚至要來干預司法如果有人告發有人要提起憲訴您接不接受"},{"start":1205.658,"end":1232.954,"text":"報告委員憲法法庭是15人合一制而且要看到事實證據我現在是問您單一個提名人我要看到當時的事實證據才能夠確認他不符合憲法訴訟法的要件不管您現在什麼新憲法啦還是人色跳動啦我想國人很難放心把捍衛中華民國憲法的責任交給您啦謝謝好謝謝葛委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":278,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時52分）謝謝主席，有請陳慈陽被提名人。"],["主席：請被提名人答詢。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：陳被提名人早安。檢視您的履歷，過去學術以及行政閱歷豐富，相信您一定了解大法官的主要職責是釋憲，是憲法的守護者，也就是要確保國家機關的行為符合憲法的規定。但是非常弔詭的是，2017年您被提名為考試委員的時候，也曾經到立法院來備詢，當時您在答詢的時候清楚的表明了我國現行的憲政體制是一個紊亂的憲政體制，現在陳被提名人可能反過來作為守護這樣一個曾經被您批評是紊亂的憲政體制，想請教您如何面對這樣一個與您過去理念相互矛盾的立場，又如何能夠守護這個曾經被您評價為紊亂的憲政體制呢？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：謝謝委員。報告委員，剛才陳玉珍委員在垂詢的時候我本來要回答，就是作為一個學者，基於學術自由，包括憲政體制、司法、行政、立法都可以批判，但是作為一個體制內，就如同我當時擔任考試委員一樣，就必須遵守整個憲政體制的規定。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，對不起，所以您的意思是，您還是認為憲法是紊亂的，只是您願意持續守護這個紊亂的憲政，是這樣嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：憲法不是混亂，是它的制度的問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在憲法又不紊亂了？您的原詞，您說的是紊亂喔！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是、是、是。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在憲法不紊亂了嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我只是指憲政體制，不包括人權保障。"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！所以憲政體制現在還是紊亂的！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：那您要來守護它？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：對憲法來講，八年一瞬，但是您卻昨是今非，昨天可以很混亂，結果今天現在要來守護憲法，我可以說您是最不適合守護憲法的人。","本席也有了解一下您過去的事蹟，您在2007年和陳明通教授、陳英鈐教授共同起草了中華民國第二共和憲法草案，簡稱臺灣憲法。雖然當初主要目標是法理臺獨，本席是不支持的，部分的內容本席不支持，但是裡面有一些內容的精神，本席卻滿有興趣的，譬如說總統虛級化，您在這一部您號稱的新憲制度設計當中，將憲政體制從總統制要改為內閣制，顯然是有看到總統權勢過重可能帶來的影響，政黨對決可能對國家造成的危害，內文當中也說了，如族群分裂、資源內耗、政府空轉等，請問被提名人，您被總統提名為大法官人選前，有沒有跟賴清德總統討論過，建議我國應該要把體制改為內閣制？您剛剛說制度紊亂，避免因為總統獨大，政黨對決，造成族群分裂，政府空轉的危害，有沒有跟賴總統提過？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有提過？今天賴總統提名您來擔任大法官，卻連基本的政治理念和學術立場都沒有搞清楚，您沒有責任跟他提一下嗎？還是您現在要說賴總統自己沒看文件啊？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，這是尊重賴總統自有的決定，自己的……我一個平凡的教授，我想我沒有辦法去做任何的建議……"],["葛委員如鈞：哇！突然間從被提名人又變成平凡的教授！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：你是被提名要擔任大法官的人哪！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係，現在等同於您剛剛的這句話已經向全體國民宣告：這是一份完全不負責任的名單啊！要立法院如何同意？沒有關係，我們來看如今賴總統這些專權獨斷獨行的行為，其實都在不斷加劇社會的分歧，不論是將不支持他的人都說成是雜質，或是為了政治目的要來抹滅歷史，將96.2%的國人都列為其餘人口，以及一味對抗擁有多數民意支持的立法院，種種作為甚至遭到外媒紐約時報直接批評，可能淪為對岸加大對臺軍事施壓的藉口。","我們應該要反過來詢問陳被提名人，在被賴清德總統提名以後，您還認同您18年前的主張嗎？我再給您一次機會，你還有想要防止總統專權對國家、對社會造成的危害嗎？還是您在賴清德取得權力，您被提名以後，就覺得現行的制度好棒棒？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我的學者立場不變，但是在這裡尊重大院修憲的權限。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以您認同應該要推動內閣制？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：至於制度選擇，當然都是由大院……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以您認同總統制有可能會專權，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這是我學者的一貫立場，但是我尊重……"],["葛委員如鈞：那現在的立場是什麼？您現在是被提名人，我不是詢問學者。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我的學者立場一貫不變。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在的立場？所以你還有學者人格跟大法官人格啊？是這樣嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是！因為如果擔任大法官，基本上是憲政的職務，要遵守憲法。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係啦！所以您之前學者的研究根本就資料都不用附上了，是不是？所以現在的陳慈陽已經在打臉18年前的陳慈陽，是這樣嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：拿人手短，吃人嘴軟，是這樣嗎？該不會又是時空環境不同，現在還多一個角色不同啊！中華民國的憲法這幾年都沒有變，變的只有是您從考試委員變成大法官被提名人，這種趨炎附勢讓人懷疑的行為，根本沒有資格擔任大法官！","但是接下來我還是要繼續請教，陳被提名人，您目前被提名擔任的是哪一個國家的大法官？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：中華民國。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯！您一定曉得，大法官的職權之一是宣告政黨解散之判決，根據憲法訴訟法第七十七條，政黨之目的或行為，危害中華民國之存在或自由民主之憲政秩序者，主管機關內政部得聲請憲法法庭為宣告政黨解散之判決。想請教您，日前民進黨的政治人物，同時也是內政部長劉世芳，在民進黨公開宣講的場合高喊要讓賴清德做臺灣國的主人，這樣的說法，實質上是不是已經危害中華民國的存在？如此一個危害中華民國存在的政黨，您是否認同內政部應該要聲請憲法法庭宣告民進黨解散？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，這個條文是從德國參照過來的，德國裡面特別重要的一點是，必須以暴力、脅迫或用武力的方式來破壞一個國家的存在跟自由民主憲政秩序。"],["葛委員如鈞：我現在講的是憲法訴訟法第七十七條，我不是在講刑法第一百條，你不要自己在這裡把幽魂拿出來。我再問一次，假如內政部向憲法法庭聲請裁判，你是否同意剛剛這樣的說法，民進黨是一個危害中華民國存在的政黨？自己看清楚。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：憲法訴訟法的規定是把憲法增修條文拿過來作為一個職權。"],["葛委員如鈞：我講的是憲法訴訟法第七十七條解散政黨的部分，這樣子有沒有應該要被解散政黨？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這個要符合暴力、脅迫或用武力的方式。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒有關係，暴力、脅迫大家很多定義啦！我再請教，您認同這個說法當中，總統和人民的關係是主人和奴隸嗎？是嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：絕對不是，我們是一個國民主權的國家。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，請你朗讀一下憲法第一條。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：中華民國基於三民主義，為民治、民有、民享之民主共和國。"],["葛委員如鈞：順序上有點錯誤，但是沒關係，謝謝您。民有、民治、民享。所以這個說法您覺得有沒有違憲？臺灣、中華民國的主人要變成賴清德啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我在釋字第445號裡面提到有關主張共產主義跟分裂國土，我認為這樣的言論基本上是政治言論、是言論自由，這應該尊重。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以內政部長自己有解散政黨的權力，他也可以有言論自由……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：他不能解散政黨，他沒有辦法解散政黨……"],["葛委員如鈞：總統也可以有言論自由？我現在講的是民進黨（執政黨）、內政部長跟賴清德總統啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，言論自由，如果擔任政府職務的話，就會被限縮。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒關係，顯然您剛剛突然發現您的大腦也有角色扮演的時空錯亂，人、事、時、地、物只要不同，憲法的解讀、正義的解讀，在您心中就有所改變。","我還是要來問陳被提名人，您30年前曾經在學術研討會上發表過有關立法院對預算審查案議決權範圍的看法，當時您指出：今日社會由於自然及社會人文科學的不斷進步，政府事務繁重，所欲規範之事務增多，所以人民對國會的要求不斷的增加，而且希望國會積極的督促政府，使政府在各方面的事務上為主動之作為。因此，我國憲法第七十條對於預算增額修正權的禁止，似乎未考慮到現代國會在政府施政上具有積極引導的作用。也就是說，30年前您主張憲法第七十條應該要有所鬆綁立法院對預算增額的權利，您30年前開創性的看法，可以說是許多學術巨擘望塵莫及啊！請問陳被提名人，30年後的今天，社會變化有沒有更快啊？自然科學進步有沒有更快啊？AI有沒有變得更快啊？請問您對於放寬立法院預算增額修正權的立場，有沒有更加堅定？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這是我身為學者的見解，但是要修改憲法第七十條，憲法第七十條的規定必須由大院來修改。"],["葛委員如鈞：我現在問的是您的見解啊！陳被提名人，您是學者也是被提名人的見解。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，剛剛我已經講過我學者的見解是不會改變。"],["葛委員如鈞：那現在的見解呢？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：學者的見解不會改變，只是我們要尊重憲政體制，修憲權在大院。"],["葛委員如鈞：剛剛陳玉珍委員問您，你說國民黨黨團給你的問題上面，叫你放棄你學者的身分。很抱歉啊！你搞錯了，是您自己的答案說您要脫離學者研究見解的堅持，是您自己要脫離的，沒有人叫你脫離啊！我們要知道這些說法讓您表達出，您在國會殿堂上根本不敢本於職權，說出你自己內心的真話，就表示你不是一個合適的大法官人選。","我們來繼續看，近來美國總統川普要做各種的關稅政策，現在可能25%、可能15%、可能35%，我們都希望臺灣的經濟可以穩定發展，我想您30年前的堅持，我們希望您自己要感到欣慰，也要持續地支持，我們認為這才是您有機會作為大法官的風骨。","接下來時間有限，我想要繼續問陳被提名人，其實我很佩服你，我想AI持續發展也應該要重視環境，您過去曾經對環境法的領域發表多篇的專書和著作，甚至曾經在環境法總論當中提到：國家對於環境有積極保護的義務，即便對於國家的義務透過第三人來達成，最終保護環境的責任還是要由國家來負責。請問您是否支持環境權入憲？也就是在憲法當中明定環境權為國家應予保障之基本人權？是不是還持續堅持？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這是無庸置疑的。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好！同樣的著作當中，您也提到受污染者可以由國家在確保權利上面來主張他們的生存權以及保障人身權的自由，人民要免於國家的不法侵害，以及受到干擾，國家要給予基本權利保護，如果基本權受到侵害的時候，人民可以依憲法第十六條提起救濟。","我想問，日前颱風丹娜絲襲擊南臺灣，吹垮屏東外海的太陽光電浮台，經濟部替廠商發文說：這是一個測試，光電板在颱風來襲前就已經移除。結果貼文裡面就有光電板，被網友說這是薛丁格的光電板。無論是光電板還是浮台，造成環境的污染是事實。請問被提名人，為了捍衛您一直以來提倡，您剛剛也確認提倡的環境權，國家應該要符於生態保存的立場，你是不是支持在地民眾採取法律途徑來進行救濟？甚至在所有法律途徑用盡以後，可以向憲法法庭聲請裁判？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我是尊重，但是國家應該要更積極，在人民提起救濟之前就應該採取比較積極的作為。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好、很好！所以針對經濟部表示：如果有媒體或網友再提屏東光電板事件，將向警方報案以示警惕。請問站在大法官被提名人的立場，您贊成政府自己沒有先處理好就以告發為手段企圖侵害人民的言論自由嗎？請回應。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我反對。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好！我想在這裡我們可以看到您是反對經濟部這樣的態度，對嗎？你反對國家用這種態度對待我們人民，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果經濟部有這樣的態度，我反對。"],["葛委員如鈞：現在已經是事實，所以你反對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果是的話，我反對。"],["葛委員如鈞：事件發生至今，經濟部對於媒體、民眾以及專家學者的提問，採取已讀不回的態度，甚至要用提告的方式，要侵害人民的言論自由，甚至要打壓第四權。我想您今天站在國會的殿堂，你說你反對，除了我們在這裡詢問您以外，你有沒有公開表達過任何一句話？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，因為如剛才跟其他委員報告過的，我已經8年沒有從事環境法研究，沒有機會在那個場合裡面去做發表……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想我們現在的國家針對環境有非常多錯誤的能源政策，希望您可以好好補上。","最後，您在報告當中的自我期許裡頭表達要擔任憲法的守護者，但是我希望來問您一下，您如何解答這一條：「……覆議時，如經全體立法委員二分之一以上決議維持原案，行政院院長應即接受該決議。……」？憲法內明文表示，行政院長就要接受，結果我們的行政院卻在覆議遭立法院否決後跑去釋憲，聲請暫時處分，完全沒有依憲法規定來行事，你怎麼看待行政院這種行為？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，院長應該要接受，好像雖然有提起暫時處分等等，是不是已經生效了？法律是不是已經生效？這是不是視作已經是接受了？抱歉我沒有注意到……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想您在上質詢臺前就應該要了解您現在要背書，要捍衛憲法的政府跟現行的狀態，要做好功課。這個案子真的是違憲。像財劃法為例，行政院在2月27號提出覆議，並且在3月10號被立法院否決，結果行政院卻在5月21號提出釋憲，這樣完全違背憲法最高性原則的行為。司法院絕對不能放任，憲法都寫明了，行政院長應該即接受決議，行政院卻不斷挑戰憲法的用字解釋，你是憲法守護者，你是不是給我們一點保障？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，憲法訴訟跟覆議，一個是法律救濟，一個是政治的途徑，這兩個途徑……"],["葛委員如鈞：他直接違反憲法增修條文第三條第二項，你要守護憲法，行政院帶頭違反憲法啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：從政治途徑來講，他應該是接受了，就是法律已經生效了。"],["葛委員如鈞：他提出釋憲，所以您之後也會接受就對了，是不是？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有，釋憲是另外一回事，釋憲的部分……"],["葛委員如鈞：對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是，釋憲是法律途徑，法律途徑……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以您現在正在曲解這一句行政院長應即接受，您1分鐘前的說法，您現在又不同意了……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有，我沒有不同意……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們要再次期許，你作為憲法的守護者，你要捍衛憲法的最高性，不要為了政治目的，迎合其他人，去曲解憲法條文，這種做法不要再次出現。","我時間有限，我還是要再詢問，行政院對憲法訴訟法提出覆議失敗以後，您剛剛說覆議失敗就接受，有嗎？有接受嗎？我們來看一下，傳出民進黨要求、建議大法官要自提處分，而不告不理是司法權的標準，法官應該要被動行使職權，否則就是球員兼裁判，請問如果有政黨、行政單位要求、建議大法官如何做事，對司法下指導棋，政治的手要伸到司法體系，以您的法學素養，這樣的訴求，這樣的行為，沒有問題嗎？發生這樣的狀況，您覺得司法院應該要怎麼做？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果有這種狀況，司法權應該基於超然的地位，不予接受，如果有的話。"],["葛委員如鈞：但應不應該予以譴責？這不是如果，這已經發生。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：那剛才委員已經垂詢了，說司法應該被動，不告不理，所以如果有的話，基本上司法權是不應該接受，但是要不要譴責，不是司法權應該主動去做任何表態的。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想，依據中華民國憲法第八十條，明文規定，法官須超出黨派以外，依據法律獨立審判，不受任何的干涉。我們看到現在臺灣執政黨這樣的行為，可以說是公然的毀憲亂政，那你說不告不理，現在有民眾要告、有政黨要告，您是不是會接受？說剛剛有一個政黨疑似違憲，剛剛有政黨的說法直接違反憲法第一條，這個說法更甚至要干預司法。如果有人告發，有人要提起憲訴，您接不接受？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，憲法法庭是15人合議制，而且要看到事實證據……"],["葛委員如鈞：我現在是問您單一一個提名人。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我要看到當時的事實證據，才能夠確認它符不符合憲法訴訟法的要件。"],["葛委員如鈞：不管您是什麼新憲法，還是人設跳動啦，我想國人很難放心把捍衛中華民國憲法的責任交給您啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員，也謝謝被提名人。","報告全院委員會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行詢問，現在休息。","休息（10時13分）","繼續開會（10時23分）"],["主席：報告全院委員會，現在繼續開會。","進行委員詢問。","請郭委員昱晴詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"163114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b86daa94b115b0947e71d587566aeaab668394456a1861213a8298b5aff6b46715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:31:37 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陳提名人是不是這樣 我不曉得可是其他的部分 我要給他形容這是傳統食物來 陳提名人 這是什麼乖乖乖乖齁是上次力猶有這次又加上什麼聽話的乖乖牌所以 我拿這些乖乖啊就是台灣人的口味但是 我坦白講"},{"start":148.352,"end":175.264,"text":"說實在的當一個大法官不是只有力有有也不能只有乖乖牌如果是這樣大法官的職責本來他就是維護憲華解釋憲華非常重要的職責所以這一點我特別要跟我們提名人特別提醒未來如果你當大法官以後"},{"start":176.224,"end":200.915,"text":"你有顏色 另外一回事但是千萬不能做乖乖派這一點我要提醒你好 那個陳提名的來我現在啊我剛剛講力有有當然我這個你事實上你自己也知道在民進黨執政這九年當中你不管是考試委員或者你在授課的當中"},{"start":201.963,"end":217.203,"text":"我在想 民進黨任何一個跟法例有關的跟憲法有關的當然 吉利 增調會你是申請人欸那有很多法例案"},{"start":218.171,"end":240.062,"text":"那這些等等我們就不再浪費時間我要請問你過去是寫者專家現在你準備大法官被提名人你在這個部分跟民進黨的這些關係未來你如果通過以後你會有什麼起色請問"},{"start":242.896,"end":261.717,"text":"報告委員,從我106年開始擔任考試委員,整個就可以證明我在考試院任內所有的兼職,當然不是政黨的兼職,我從來沒有兼職過政黨,所有的各院的這個術院審議委員等等全部辭掉,"},{"start":262.398,"end":277.544,"text":"也不參加除跟考試院職權有關的相關的演講或報告這裡第一個我就可以證明我本身就是基於超然的地位在行使考試委員職權這以前可以驗證"},{"start":278.844,"end":305.462,"text":"那你在當大法官的時候也是會秉存你這種精神但是你在寫者專家對你不放心的就是確確實實你比力猶有更力猶有好那沒關係這個是我們的感覺但是你的做法就是未來表現給人家看嘛當然也不能說過去如何做跟現在如何做未來如何做我們就是"},{"start":306.323,"end":333.126,"text":"把他蓋關這個論斷那這個當然對你也是不公平但是我特別再來請教你一個問題除了你當然跟民進黨力有有的那種顏色是非常密切但是我要請教你現在家人還有沒有在當有幾職或無幾職的民進黨的重要職務有沒有"},{"start":333.866,"end":358.925,"text":"報告委員我的太太郭立貞教授現在擔任民進黨的仲裁委員但是跟委員報告夫妻除了共贏婚姻生活家庭關係以及親子關係以外個人的職業的發展跟個人的一個自己決定的這相關的這個OK OK 好我現在疑問的是這樣陳提名人"},{"start":359.545,"end":368.001,"text":"我在疑問的為什麼我要問這個當然夫人她如何去做她想法怎麼去做跟你的職位當然不"},{"start":369.107,"end":390.633,"text":"不等於啦但是有一點因為本黨台灣民眾黨在問鑒的時候你提到這個部分你如果現在在宴會裡面直接講答我夫人是怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣這個問題我就不會問喔你答的是依憲法之規定"},{"start":393.854,"end":417.979,"text":"9條10條11條辦理這個就有一點迴避的意思那個是指我個人有利益衝突的時候那個問題是問個人有利益衝突的時候所以我才依據憲法訴訟法並沒有問到說你家人或者是你的幾等親之內並沒有問所以我的回答是非常誠實的所以我坦白講啦"},{"start":418.559,"end":441.764,"text":"所以這樣就會讓我們猜疑你是在做迴避那有做就有做有什麼關係因為民進黨本來就是正當的政黨啊報告委員因為那個問題點只問我本人所以我的回答是針對本人如果有問家人我一定會回答除了太太以外其他還有沒有沒有沒有了齁我希望這樣剛才為什麼我會講"},{"start":444.705,"end":473.937,"text":"除了力猶有當然我們要尊重參加任何政黨那其他的職務無所謂但是當了大法官以後他是憲法為重所以不能有政黨色彩太明顯這是我們很在乎的也認為說過去你怎麼做讓我們感覺你是力猶有再加上力猶有報告我人我在考試委員任內絕對沒有這樣子的情形"},{"start":475.718,"end":499.535,"text":"另外一個就是會死的問題會死的問題你也曾經講過也就是說執行死刑對於生命的侵犯行為請問現在以死刑一字節實質會死的這些你現在未來有什麼看法"},{"start":500.453,"end":529.219,"text":"報告委員我在回答貴黨團的意見裡面提到除了要堅守憲法的價值核心大法官還要堅固基於國民主權國民的情感及價值共識所以我在這邊可以理解也認同死刑的存在而且有感同身受報告委員還有一段是來來來陳提名人來你發表這個意思就是你反對"},{"start":530.609,"end":540.923,"text":"你反對的意思不是也就是說執行死刑是侵犯的立場所以這些有時候你現在講說你尊重"},{"start":542.63,"end":567.51,"text":"這個死刑的存在那當然這個我們尊重你可是我把問題凸顯出來是讓你未來在這個部分你當了大法官以後在這個部分要特別去留意因為你在寫者在平常所表示的這些就讓我們感覺是你根本就是賄使的使用者吧從"},{"start":569.271,"end":584.6,"text":"我相信那句話是從理論推論的應該是從基本權核心理論推論出的你還是尊重有死刑的存在我還是尊重 因為是至於國民主權我跟委員報告我留得的 我的背景"},{"start":585.305,"end":611.904,"text":"德國的法院的判決除了前面第一個是他的國規以外另外他會寫到以德意志人民之名來做成判決所以一定要尊重國民法官法也是如此我知道我知道我知道你我拜讀過你很多你很多這個大作啦所以你很多資料我都有蒐集啦那因為我是認為講這句話會產生讓人家你"},{"start":616.809,"end":629.629,"text":"不存在死刑的存在所以這一點要特別那你已經公開在大宴裡面已經講了你是死刑的存在你是尊重的所以這個部分要"},{"start":630.35,"end":647.501,"text":"未來大法官是在解釋憲法是在解釋違憲與否所以這個部分是特別提醒你接下來可能比較敏感也就是本黨跟我們立法院已經三讀通過的法庭直播的問題"},{"start":648.622,"end":676.883,"text":"那法庭直播已經三讀通過算一個法律案嘛因為這個法院組織法裡面其實這個也沒有牽涉到任何人那這些人我就感覺到很奇怪啊民進黨就一直在講事實神根本不能直播嘛就是法律神才有可能直播更何況兩個重點一個重點就是社會矚目重大的案子一個就是"},{"start":678.204,"end":703.79,"text":"那大家所關心重要的兩個議題才有可能直播這直播是被告可以申請法官做最後的裁定那我不曉得法庭直播不是什麼洪水猛獸那為什麼他們在反對這個就是什麼自己心裡面有鬼所以一直在阻擋來陳提名人未來你是大法官針對這個問題你有什麼看法"},{"start":706.639,"end":731.792,"text":"報告委員我在貴黨團提的書面意見已經提到法庭直播基本上立法院已經通過尊重立法院的決定裡面有關法律審以開放直播為原則事實審視例外而且要最後由法官依職權來認定當然當事人可以申請這些我都予以尊重"},{"start":732.312,"end":757.937,"text":"不過有一件事我必須因為司法院已經也提到了裡面有非常多會涉及到隱私權涉及到相關的權利事實層才會有隱私權兩個要做來我只是提法律的要件希望司法院司法院已經承諾說要司法行政所長要你如果要談這些我就認為你沒有誠心面對"},{"start":758.917,"end":785.1,"text":"今天我剛才已經講這是事實審當然不在此現了那法律審當然是社會矚目的重大議案你還在講什麼個人的隱私那是最後才法官來裁定嘛所以這些東西我不曉得他們在怕什麼道泰委員我是說配套措施而已啦我並不是我是說配套措施不是說我有很多議題來陳提名人來我有很多議題"},{"start":786.461,"end":801.811,"text":"現在就是現在的政府尤其教育部啊用一個什麼健康有序不涉及正式矮化等等的東西用這種變通限制做協助交流但是"},{"start":803.171,"end":824.829,"text":"我們大家都知道陳提名人你也曾經去過大陸喔也做過協助交流那我們本院也有民進黨委員講講說交流就是統戰請問這是人民的行的權利請問你贊不贊同交流就是統戰你贊不贊同"},{"start":826.929,"end":849.855,"text":"人民有行動遷徙等等的自由這憲法明文保障但是依據憲法23條如果社交公共利益等等這些是可以以法律限制但是不能剝奪我講的是交流兩制跟統戰無關但是我們院裡面民進黨有委員講交流"},{"start":850.695,"end":857.202,"text":"什麼叫做交流 交流就是大家互相的知識的交換 交流的情感"},{"start":858.21,"end":880.289,"text":"並非有統獨的這些交流當然統獨不可以啊 法律規定得很清楚啊所以我現在請教你的就是交流就是統戰 你讚不讚同因為未來你是要做大法官喔大法官是要做憲法人民權利的解釋喔"},{"start":881.03,"end":905.202,"text":"所以你同不同意這句話報告委員這是大院各委員彼此之間的在職權行使的發表當然我們言論自由我們都尊重他來陳提名人我跟你講我們任何一個立法委員他有免責權這個OK我們都尊重他言論自由但是我要請教你因為未來你是要做大法官"},{"start":906.002,"end":934.715,"text":"交流就是統戰你同不同意我認為我要你回答你同不同意交流就是統戰原則上交流並不是統戰但是有很多狀況之下要經大院來做相關的立法或配套這是尊重大院的職權陳教授 陳提名人你如果繼續這樣講我就開始要用這種不理性的來問你"},{"start":935.535,"end":959.928,"text":"因為你不同意就是不同意嘛這本來交流就不是統戰嘛那明明就是要把它交流就把它變成統戰這叫做什麼這叫做政治化的思想啊什麼這樣就統戰那如果是這樣你幾年下來2013年2014年2017年你都有學術啊你有去見過統戰部的人嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":963.65,"end":983.124,"text":"那為什麼要把你醜化 你也是一個統戰啊所以陳提名的人 未來你是要當法官我要的就是這一句話你到底同不同意 你已經講說不同意但是尊重他的言論自由我一樣 跟你的心態一樣我也反對這句話就是統戰但是最起碼的話"},{"start":984.741,"end":1009.691,"text":"也就是其他的部分他們要事件你就有一個基本的立場好 另外我們大家知道陳提名人你也是反對反核的反核的但是我們本黨8月23號準備核三的啟用但是我必須要提醒我們陳提名人也就是"},{"start":1011.303,"end":1040.309,"text":"世界各國都在用核能過去是緩和現在變成核能是安全但是你的大作幾個當中甚至於你是合適的這些審查委員你都指張要會合請問一下你當了大法官以後你會把這個緩和的觀念帶進大法官法庭裡面去做這些不利於核能的這些種種"},{"start":1041.269,"end":1065.197,"text":"但是我特別要提醒七大工業國先進國家都已經把核能當成一個環保的花店的東西請問你針對這個議題陳提名人你有什麼看法報告委員這是我將近30年前核能科技的狀態所提出的看法"},{"start":1069.278,"end":1087.663,"text":"三十年後因為我八年擔任考試委員全力專注在考試院的職權對環境法這一塊基本上沒有再去接觸它了我同意你的說法因為三十年前當然時代轉變有時候看法會改變"},{"start":1088.703,"end":1109.317,"text":"但是我特別要提醒你核能世界趨勢是過去緩和是有理現在緩和是要理性的緩和當然這些包括日本鄰近國家我們可以看大家都在用嘛所以我希望你當了大法官以後"},{"start":1110.217,"end":1131.845,"text":"千萬千萬不能把三十年緩和的這個堅定想法用在憲法的解釋這樣我特別要提醒我們陳提名人最後一個來最後一個我們大家都知道啊現在的大法官啊陳忠貞大法官啊你過去在當考試委員的時候"},{"start":1133.843,"end":1151.424,"text":"確實他在當考選部部長你們對以律師考試等等你確確實實你們兩位有所堅持跟有所質疑請問一下你現在大法官通過以後就變成又是同事"},{"start":1152.605,"end":1168.521,"text":"會不會前車之鑒又發生你跟他觀念不同有爭執僵持不下的情形請問我們陳提名人針對這個你有什麼解說自古文人相親"},{"start":1169.622,"end":1191.564,"text":"彼此之間的學術見解都不一樣所以在學界發生爭執的狀況都是常識但是私底下大家都是法界的同事朋友絕對不會因為這樣影響到私底下法界的朋友跟同事之情誼但是有關公事部分我們當然就堅持自己的見解"},{"start":1192.825,"end":1222.305,"text":"那個陳提名人我想今天我都很直接的問你一些過去不管你30年前的堅持或者考試委員的等等或者你過去跟民進黨種種的關係這個都無所謂隨時我也同意時代轉變不一樣但是當大法官當任何一個職責有任何一個職責的這些轉變跟堅持最後一個我必須要提醒我們陳提名人心中有憲法"},{"start":1223.926,"end":1242.981,"text":"腦中有人名不要有綠色的想法要有自己邪術涵養的主張所以我真的蠻期待我們陳提名人謝謝林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時31分）謝謝主席。請陳大法官被提名人。"],["主席：請被提名人陳慈陽教授答詢。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：委員好。"],["林委員國成：好。陳被提名人，不管你當考試委員或學者專家，本席都要特別提醒，上一次的7位大法官被提名人通通不通過，而不通過的原因是因為綠友友。其中的劉靜怡教授，他國民黨也罵，民進黨也罵，民眾黨的柯文哲也罵，但本黨仍特別投贊成票給劉靜怡教授，因為這樣才真正可以當大法官，不受上面的壓力，有自己的主張。但是很奇怪，民進黨自己封殺了劉靜怡教授，這代表什麼？代表賴總統所提名的大法官，不一定只聽賴清德的就一定會通過，這點我要特別提醒。","上一次是綠友友，這一次又加上2個，即有7個被提名人。當然，陳教授、陳被提名人是不是這樣？我不曉得。但對其他人，我要用一種傳統食物來形容他們。陳被提名人，這是什麼？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：乖乖。"],["林委員國成：乖乖，上次是綠友友，這次則是又加上聽話的乖乖牌。我拿的這些乖乖是臺灣人的口味，不過坦白說，當大法官不能只有綠友友，也不能只有乖乖牌。大法官的職責是維護憲法，解釋憲法，非常重要，這點我要特別提醒陳被提名人。未來如果你當了大法官，你有顏色是另外一回事，但千萬不能做乖乖牌，這一點我要提醒你。","陳被提名人，我剛剛講到綠友友，事實上你自己也知道，在民進黨執政這九年當中，你不管是擔任考試委員或者是在授課當中，我在想，民進黨任何一個跟法律有關的、跟憲法有關的，舉例真調會，你是聲請人耶，有很多法律案等等，我們就不再浪費時間，我要請問，你過去是學者專家，現在你是大法官被提名人，你跟民進黨的這些關係，未來你如果通過以後，會有什麼取捨？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，從我106年開始擔任考試委員就可以證明，我在考試院任內所有的兼職，當然不是政黨的兼職，我從來沒有兼職過政黨職務，所有各院的訴願審議委員等等全部辭掉，也不參加跟考試院職權無關的演講或報告，第一個，這就可以證明我本身就是基於超然的地位在行使考試委員的職權，以前的作法可以驗證，這是第一個。"],["林委員國成：那你在當大法官的時候也是會秉持你這種精神？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：當然是絕對……"],["林委員國成：但是你之前是學者專家時，對你不放心的就是確確實實你比綠友友更綠友友。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員……"],["林委員國成：沒關係，這個是我們的感覺，但是你的作法就是未來表現給人家看嘛！當然也不能說過去如何做跟現在如何做，對於未來如何做我們就先蓋棺論斷，這個當然對你也是不公平。","我特別再來請教你一個問題，除了你是民進黨綠友友的顏色非常密切外，我要請教你的是，現在你的家人還有沒有在民進黨內擔任不論是有給職或無給職的重要職務？有沒有？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我的太太郭麗珍教授現在擔任民進黨的仲裁委員，但是跟委員報告，夫妻除了共營婚姻生活、家庭關係以及親子關係以外，個人的職業發展跟個人自己決定的相關事項……"],["林委員國成：這個OK、OK！好，我現在的疑問是這樣，陳被提名人，為什麼我要問這個？當然夫人如何去做，他想怎麼去做，跟你的職位當然不等於啦。但是有一點，因為本黨（台灣民眾黨）在問卷的時候，你提到這個部分時，如果像現在在院會裡面直接回答我夫人是怎麼樣、怎麼樣，這個問題我就不會問了，但你的回答的是依憲法訴訟法規定之第九條、第十條、第十一條辦理，這個就有一點迴避的意思。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，那個是指我個人有利益衝突的時候，那個問題是問個人有利益衝突的時候，所以我才說依據憲法訴訟法，並沒有問到家人或者是幾等親之內，並沒有問，所以我的回答是非常誠實的。"],["林委員國成：是啦！所以我坦白講，這樣就會讓我們猜疑你是在迴避，有做就有做，有什麼關係？因為民進黨本來就是正當的政黨啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，因為那個問題點只問我本人，所以我的回答是針對本人……"],["林委員國成：好，那你現在……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果有問家人，我一定會回答。"],["林委員國成：除了太太以外，其他還有沒有？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有。"],["林委員國成：沒有了？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有。"],["林委員國成：好，我希望這樣，剛才為什麼我會講除了綠友友，當然我們要尊重參加任何政黨，其他的職務無所謂，但是當了大法官以後，應該以憲法為重，所以政黨色彩不能太明顯，這是我們很在乎的，也認為過去你的作為讓我們感覺你是綠友友再加上綠友友，所以……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但是報告委員，我在考試委員任內絕對沒有這樣子的情形。"],["林委員國成：好，可以。另外一個就是廢死的問題，針對廢死的問題，你也曾經講過，執行死刑是對生命的侵犯行為，請問對於現在的死刑一致決、實質廢死的這些，你現在未來有什麼看法？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我在回答貴黨團的意見裡面提到，大法官除了要堅守憲法的價值核心，還要兼顧基於國民主權、國民的情感及價值共識，所以我在這邊可以理解，也認同死刑的存在，而且有感同身受。","報告委員，還有一件事……"],["林委員國成：陳被提名人，你發表這個的意思就是你反對的意思？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是。"],["林委員國成：也就是說，執行死刑是侵犯的立場，所以你現在講你尊重死刑的存在，當然我們尊重你，可是我把問題凸顯出來，是讓你未來當了大法官以後，在這個部分要特別去留意，因為你在當學者時以及平常所表示的這些立場，讓我們感覺你根本就是廢死的死忠擁護者。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我相信那一句話是從理論推論的，應該是從基本權核心理論去推論出來。"],["林委員國成：你還是尊重要有死刑的存在？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我還是尊重，因為這是基於國民主權。我跟委員報告，我的背景是留德的，德國法院的判決，除了前面第一個是它的國徽以外，另外它會寫到以德意志人民之名來做成判決，所以一定要尊重國民，國民法官法也是如此。"],["林委員國成：陳被提名人，我知道，我拜讀過你很多大作，所以你很多資料我都有蒐集，因為我認為講這句話會讓人家產生不存在死刑的存在，所以這一點要特別留意。你已經公開在大院裡面講了，你尊重死刑的存在，未來大法官是在檢視憲法，是在檢視違憲與否，所以這個部分我要特別提醒你。","接下來可能比較敏感，也就是本黨和立法院已經三讀通過的法庭直播問題，法庭直播已經三讀通過，算一個法律案嘛？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["林委員國成：因為在法院組織法裡面，其實這個也沒有牽涉到任何人，我就感覺到很奇怪，民進黨一直在講，事實審根本不能直播，法律審才有可能直播，更何況兩個重點，一個重點就是社會矚目重大的案子，一個就是大家所關心的，重要的兩個議題才有可能直播，這個直播是被告可以聲請、法官做最後的裁定，法庭直播不是什麼洪水猛獸，我不曉得為什麼他們在反對？這個叫做自己心裡面有鬼，所以一直在阻擋。陳被提名人，未來你是大法官，針對這個問題，你有什麼看法？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我在貴黨團提的書面意見已經提到，法庭直播基本上立法院已經通過，我尊重立法院的決定，這裡面有關法律審以開放直播為原則，事實審是例外，而且最後由法官依職權來認定，當然當事人可以聲請，這些我都予以尊重。不過有一件事我必須說明，因為司法院也已經提到，裡面有非常多會涉及到隱私權，涉及到相關的權利……"],["林委員國成：事實審才會有隱私權。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，委員，我只是提法律的要件，希望司法院……司法院已經承諾司法行政首長要就這個部分提出配套。"],["林委員國成：你如果要談這些，我就認為你沒有誠心面對，我剛才已經講事實審不在此限，法律審當然是社會矚目的重大議案，你還在講什麼個人隱私，那是最後由法官來裁定，所以我不曉得他們在怕什麼？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我是說配套措施而已，我並不是說……"],["林委員國成：我還有很多議題，陳被提名人，現在的政府尤其教育部，用健康有序、不涉及政治矮化等等的東西，用這種變通限制學術交流。但是我們大家都知道，陳被提名人你也曾經去過大陸，也做過學術交流，本院也有民進黨委員講說「交流就是統戰」，但這是人民行的權利，請問你贊不贊同「交流就是統戰」，你贊不贊同？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：人民有行動遷徙等等的自由，這是憲法明文保障，但是依據憲法第二十三條，如果涉及到公共利益等等這些，是可以以法律限制，但是不能剝奪……"],["林委員國成：是啦！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，那這個部分就由立法院……"],["林委員國成：我講的是「交流」兩字，跟統戰無關，但是我們院裡面民進黨有委員講交流，什麼叫做交流？交流就是大家互相知識的交換、情感的交流，並非有統獨的這些交流。當然統獨不可以啊！法律規定的很清楚啊！所以，我現在請教你的就是「交流就是統戰」你贊不贊同？因為未來你是要做大法官的喔，大法官是要做憲法人民權利的解釋，所以你同不同意這句話？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，這是大院各委員彼此之間在職權行使的發表，所以我呼籲尊重……"],["林委員國成：當然言論自由我們都尊重啊！陳被提名人，我跟你講，任何一個立法委員都有免責權，這個OK，我們都尊重他的言論自由。但是我要請教你，因為未來你要做大法官，「交流就是統戰」你同不同意？我要你回答，你同不同意「交流就是統戰」？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：原則上交流並不是統戰，但是有很多狀況之下，要經大院來做相關的立法和配套，這是尊重大院的職權。"],["林委員國成：好。不是，陳教授、陳被提名人，你如果繼續這樣講，我就開始要用這種不理性的來問你喔。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["林委員國成：因為你不同意就是不同意，本來交流就不是統戰，那明明就是要把交流變成統戰，這叫做什麼？這叫做政治化的思想啦！什麼交流就是統戰，如果是這樣，你幾年下來，2013年、2014年、2017年你都有學術交流，你有去見過統戰部的人嗎？沒有嘛！那為什麼要把你醜化你也是一個統戰啊！所以，陳被提名人，未來你是要當大法官，我要的就是這一句話，你到底同不同意？你已經講說「不同意，但是尊重他的言論自由」。我一樣，跟你的心態一樣，我也反對「交流就是統戰」這句話，但是最起碼其他部分他們要釋憲，你就有一個基本的立場嘛！","好。另外，我們大家都知道陳被提名人你也是反核的，但是我們本黨8月23號準備核三的啟用，但是我必須要提醒陳被提名人，世界各國都在用核能。過去是反核，現在變成核能是安全，但是你的幾個大作當中，甚至於你是核四的審查委員，你都主張要廢核。請問，你當了大法官以後，你會把這個反核的觀念帶進大法官法庭裡面去做這些不利於核能的種種解釋嗎？在此，我特別要提醒你，七大工業國、先進國家都已經把核能當成一個環保的發電方式。請問，針對這個議題，陳被提名人，你有什麼看法？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，這是我將近30年前就當時核能科技的狀態所提出的看法……"],["林委員國成：好，30年後呢？30年後你的看法？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：30年以後，因為我有8年擔任考試委員，全力專注在考試院的職權，對環境法這一塊基本上已經沒有再去接觸了，所以……"],["林委員國成：好，那我同意，我同意你的說法，因為是30年前，當然時代轉變，有時候看法會改變。但是我特別要提醒你，核能是世界趨勢，過去反核是有理，現在反核是要理性的。關於反核，當然這些包括日本鄰近國家，我們可以看到大家都在用嘛！所以我希望你當了大法官以後，千萬千萬不能把30年前反核的堅定想法用在憲法的解釋，我要特別提醒我們陳被提名人。","大家都知道，現在的大法官蔡宗珍大法官，過去你在當考試委員的時候，他在當考選部部長，對於律師考試等等，確確實實你們兩位有所堅持跟有所質疑，請問一下，你現在大法官獲得同意通過以後，你們就變成又是同事，會不會有了前車之鑑，又發生你跟他因觀念不同而有爭執、僵持不下的情形？請問陳被提名人，針對這個部分，你有什麼解說？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，自古文人相輕，彼此之間的學術見解都不一樣，所以在學界發生爭執的狀況都是常事，但是私底下大家都是法界的同事、朋友，絕對不會因為這樣影響到私底下法界的朋友跟同事之情誼，但是有關公事部分，我們當然就堅持自己的見解。"],["林委員國成：好。陳被提名人，我想今天我都很直接的問你一些過去的情形，不管是你30年前的堅持，或者是考試委員的部分等等，或者是你過去跟民進黨種種的關係，這個都無所謂，我也同意時代的轉變會不一樣，但是當大法官、當任何一個職務要有任何一個職責的轉變跟堅持。","最後，我必須要提醒我們陳被提名人，心中有憲法，腦中有人民，不要有綠色的想法，要有自己學術涵養的主張，所以我真的滿期許我們陳被提名人能夠順利通過，但是請堅持你的理念，好不好？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝被提名人。","下一位劉建國委員之詢問以書面提出，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員劉建國書面詢問：","本席對大法官被提名人陳慈陽先生提出以下核心關切：","前言：大法官職位空缺與憲法法庭運作困境","˙目前有七位大法官職位空缺，導致憲法法庭自去年11月起已癱瘓256天。","˙新修訂的《憲法訴訟法》規定，憲法法庭判決需十人以上評議且違憲宣告需九人以上，現有八位大法官無法滿足此門檻。","˙陳被提名人是否已準備好面對未來工作壓力巨大、環境嚴峻的大法官職務。"],["死刑及終身監禁（實質無期徒刑）\n            ：司法信任度與刑罰議題","˙本席認為台灣民眾對司法信任度低落，尤其對死刑議題不滿。","˙要求陳被提名人闡明對死刑的立場。","˙針對法務部擬推動的「無期徒刑不得假釋」修法，本席質詢陳被提名人若未來有釋憲爭議時的立場。","˙此議題對大法官而言無法迴避，陳被提名人先前回覆問卷時未明確表態，期盼能進一步補充說明。","法庭直播：透明化與人身安全疑慮","˙本席注意到，立法院強行通過《法院組織法》修正案，開放法庭直播，但缺乏明確條件與庭上人員保護措施。","˙本席擔憂法庭直播可能導致司法官、證人、鑑定人等人身安全受威脅，並受輿論壓力影響。","˙要求陳被提名人闡述對法庭直播的看法，以及未來若有相關釋憲案時，如何保障法庭審判不受外力介入。","總結：提升司法信任度之作為","˙上述議題皆環繞著台灣民眾對司法信任度低落的核心問題。","˙最後請教陳被提名人，若擔任大法官，除了憲法審查外，還能有何方式或作為來協助提升台灣人民對司法的信任。"],["主席：下一位請葛如鈞委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"163113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292bdae1c537c1128459e71d587566aeaab668394456a1861213256103802437d2e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:10:52 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這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任 對吧"},{"start":123.86,"end":132.247,"text":"是那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎 您認為呢"},{"start":134.822,"end":153.961,"text":"報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同譬如說所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施"},{"start":154.662,"end":174.481,"text":"所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成"},{"start":175.382,"end":198.021,"text":"那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過是所以您剛解釋的吧是所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是齁這個這個有書寫的齁這個呃"},{"start":203.365,"end":229.525,"text":"民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個"},{"start":232.24,"end":257.283,"text":"從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見"},{"start":258.624,"end":262.724,"text":"您請問現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎"},{"start":264.724,"end":288.578,"text":"報告委員 我想法一貫不只是從考試委員從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關應該要予以尊重很好 那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率"},{"start":290.219,"end":299.004,"text":"這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路"},{"start":302.61,"end":329.729,"text":"如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識啦 三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權啦尊重OK 好 謝謝您齁那這個這是錦霄這個齁 錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡喔"},{"start":330.109,"end":353.958,"text":"那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人所呼籲的要停侃退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停侃所得替代率這個部分 退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個"},{"start":354.858,"end":359.025,"text":"立法行政過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路"},{"start":362.955,"end":390.165,"text":"基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧"},{"start":393.292,"end":400.5,"text":"普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為增加支出制提議當初行政院送出來是1100現在特別條例增加1350"},{"start":412.313,"end":439.133,"text":"那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第70條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第70條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案"},{"start":440.114,"end":467.235,"text":"做這個實質增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號4-520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策"},{"start":468.616,"end":492.137,"text":"因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場"},{"start":492.777,"end":511.217,"text":"那現在就是您回答很多但是沒有回答到這個問題喔這個行政院如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了如果你以後是要解釋當那個大法官是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼"},{"start":512.506,"end":526.474,"text":"報告委員 剛才已經跟委員你講了很多 你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以 我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元"},{"start":528.935,"end":540.588,"text":"因為法院主張是預算 法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎?行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列是不是?"},{"start":543.732,"end":567.973,"text":"你認為這個是法律案?那請問這個是法律案還是預算案?這個特別條例這個就是有爭議行政立法這件事有爭議對有爭議謝謝教授我知道您的答案你認為有爭議你說行政立法是預算案我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名你認為說這個是有爭議的"},{"start":569.835,"end":575.459,"text":"你認為國會在行使預決簽的時候有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用立法院在通過預算也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎"},{"start":590.033,"end":616.808,"text":"導正 但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那對於說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議兩院有爭議 司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理"},{"start":618.028,"end":640.461,"text":"陳教授 剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇"},{"start":643.854,"end":667.021,"text":"您看一下喔 平溪大法官釋字391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷 沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭有啊 有有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是在我這一篇文章是在那個剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭喔 但是我們上去搜尋喔這個"},{"start":669.422,"end":692.557,"text":"上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀,是沒有公開有公開,上網搜尋應該書上,報告委員,書有可以在書局找得到因為上網搜尋是沒有搜尋,沒關係那我想請教您,這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得"},{"start":695.319,"end":723.145,"text":"我對於大法官釋字391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對 您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您回憶一下這是您說過的話預算額度修正權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質"},{"start":724.565,"end":745.334,"text":"第二個 縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧 沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案 預算案上是不行但是行政課我們的差別是 他說它是預算案您的說法是 您以前當學者說法"},{"start":747.836,"end":765.295,"text":"縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法例案就算維生實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情"},{"start":766.556,"end":794.872,"text":"還有下一句 下一句因此憲法第70條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得70條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用70條沒有提到 這都是你說的話經由國會地勤以來選 傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以70條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的這個意見吧"},{"start":797.049,"end":802.102,"text":"是 但是報告我七十條是憲法修法是要大院的職權"},{"start":805.205,"end":830.814,"text":"我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法令那裡頭有沒有這個爭執啊對你以前的看法我是因為你以前擔任學者的時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情第二點我跟委員報告"},{"start":833.795,"end":837.779,"text":"我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法"},{"start":857.074,"end":869.239,"text":"就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得這個在這個在這個我們跟這一次這個普拉現金一萬塊的這個憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法70條我認為憲法70條可以修改但是大院的職權"},{"start":877.642,"end":898.942,"text":"OK 好 謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普法宣言的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的"},{"start":900.042,"end":911.711,"text":"這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權"},{"start":917.512,"end":939.691,"text":"這垂直權利分立嘛來 我來幫您整理一下您說過 國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無異體框架的財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的"},{"start":941.112,"end":962.668,"text":"第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法抉擇和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力"},{"start":964.489,"end":986.162,"text":"然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分 比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦 不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多 地方也可能多 劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛 這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多 或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點 還是中央多"},{"start":986.602,"end":1004.484,"text":"但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛沒錯吧所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西嘛不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛所以這個財政訴訟送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子吧"},{"start":1004.744,"end":1032.161,"text":"因為這不是法學者可以解決問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政法是立法委員的任務這沒問題從民意來講要有中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎"},{"start":1034.242,"end":1052.201,"text":"因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充 由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲 財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛 對不對"},{"start":1054.844,"end":1070.626,"text":"但是法院可以請鑑定人 但是可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人 財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候 這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題 你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎"},{"start":1071.803,"end":1094.534,"text":"是,但是可以由鑑定人才證明因為時間很短,我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島,我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教你這一題,您當年考試委員的時候109到113年,發言次數比例分別是65、39、20就11次、20次、10次,最後兩年是7次、7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了,所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了你後面兩年,發言的次數相當的少,只剩下7次"},{"start":1097.796,"end":1099.979,"text":"52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎"},{"start":1105.409,"end":1125.737,"text":"所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧"},{"start":1132.379,"end":1136.565,"text":"是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對 大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有9位考試委員這個有"},{"start":1143.001,"end":1170.699,"text":"有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議 你知道嗎是九位裡面有八位發言 哪一位沒有發言報告委員 因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了不需要任何的時間所以沒有 在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院 您的算是公積但這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授"},{"start":1171.852,"end":1186.589,"text":"你是對我們離島失誤因為很贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為"},{"start":1187.33,"end":1210.839,"text":"我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說檢視理導者和這個議員九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言"},{"start":1211.259,"end":1222.807,"text":"沒關係沒有發言因為表示您的至少這個也是通過我們是跟您表示感謝所以不發言有時候會表示那因為時間到我們還有其他的希望如果您有興同過這個提問維持一樣的風骨"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":22,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（9時11分）謝謝主席，有請被提名人陳教授。"],["主席：請被提名人。"],["陳委員玉珍：早。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：看總統府送過來的簡歷還有您剛剛的口頭自傳報告，本席覺得您是一位理論與實務經驗兼具，也是法學界、法律界的一時之選。在看了你的簡歷後，我想這是您第3次到立法院來接受被提名同意權的行使，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：第3次嘛！前面兩次是考試委員，這次是大法官。我們先來看您過往的成績單，2017年的時候，蔡總統提名您擔任第12屆的考試委員，那時候提名的新聞稿提到，是為了配合年金改革的步伐，多項重要年金改革方案要交由考試院研擬；到了2020年5月的時候，再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員，裡面提到您在原來第12屆考試委員任內，有推動年改及相關考銓制度的研議，熟悉考試院職能，考量續任有助於經驗傳承；這是前兩次提名的相關理由。這一次賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官，新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候，對推動年金改革退撫新制著有貢獻，這個是這次的提名。您在自傳中也有提到擔任考試委員的時候，是以推動年金改革為己任，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問您擔任考試委員的時候，您認為那個時候已經有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，基本上，年金改革是考試院幾任院長都有這樣的期待，只是各黨針對部分的意見不同，譬如所得替代率或者相關的一些配套措施。所以基本上，年金改革這件事，因為當時還沒有民眾黨，所以是國民黨跟民進黨黨團在立法院共同的共識，在這種情形之下，我覺得我有部分達成，有部分沒有達成……"],["陳委員玉珍：您的自傳裡頭也有提到，就有關年金改革的退撫三法，立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見，最後依立法院修正條文通過，就是您剛解釋的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在考試院第12屆第136次會議裡，您捍衛您的立場，當時的說法是：民主國家所有重要事項，必須經由國會作最後決議，因此立法過程中，雖部長身為考試院的銓敘部長，但是對於立法院最後決議，不僅銓敘部長要尊重，本院亦然。所以您是相當尊重立法、國會的立法權，聽起來是這樣子，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：在第137次會議您也有提到：「從年改迄今，許多法案是透過立法院提案通過，此為立法委員的憲定職掌，造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題，形式上無法苛責行政院，此為立法委員的行為，屬目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果」，這些都是您說過的，對吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在擔任考試委員期間，您相當尊重立法院的立法權，尊重國會的意見，請問您現在也是抱持同樣的想法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我想法一貫……"],["陳委員玉珍：一以貫之啦！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不只是從考試委員，從以前擔任學者，基本上我認為立法院是最高民意機關，應該要予以尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：很好，我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風骨。我想請教您幾個議題，立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率，這個您知道吧？有三讀通過。請問對於所得替代率這個議題，您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的立法形成空間，還是認為年改不應該走回頭路？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果作為一個被提名人的話，我們尊重，我絕對尊重立法院所作的這樣的立法通過，但是中間相關的過程，當然是由立法院內部形成的共識所作成的……"],["陳委員玉珍：已經共識了，三讀已經通過了。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，對，尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以會尊重立法院的職權啦？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，好，謝謝您。前面是警消海巡的部分，另外還沒有修改的，但也有可能修改的是公教人員所呼籲的要停砍退休金、彈性調整所得替代率，就是七大公教團體都希望要停砍退休金、所得替代率，如果到時候這個部分再經過立法院的修改，又三讀通過了，所得替代又有所改變的時候，請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的立法形成空間、尊重國會的權力，還是會認為不應該走回頭路？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：基本上在憲法秩序下，依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容，我是尊重立法院。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，所以不管您是擔任學者，或是以後擔任大法官，您都會尊重立法院三讀通過的法律案？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，我再補充，是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，請教我們上個禮拜剛剛通過普發現金條例，您知道嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：普發現金1萬元，相關的政黨人士說這增加預算有違憲爭議，府院及財主人士認為有違憲爭議，因為依憲法規定，立法院審查預算不得為增加支出之決定，當初行政院送出的特別條例額度是4,100億，現在這個特別條例多增加了1,350億。請問您是否認為，立法委員可以提法律案，為實質增加預算支出之提議，並不違反憲法第七十條的規定？因為我們現在普遍聽到很多相關府院或者一些學者有提到，這次通過普發1萬元是違反憲法第七十條的規定，所以我想請問您：我們立法院、立法委員可不可以提出法律案做實質增加預算的提議，並且沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定？您的法律見解如何？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，報告委員，因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為是通過的法律案，但是有可能……釋字520號是有關於核四的問題，當時行政院或立法院也都有提到可能是重大政策，因為是法律案跟重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候，大法官520號解釋就有提供一個解決的方法，就是憲法裡面有關行政、立法互動的政治爭議的解決模式，應該在憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去解決，至於怎麼解決，尊重大院跟行政院的立場。"],["陳委員玉珍：您回答很多，但是沒有回答到這個問題。關於普發現金1萬元，如果行政院認為這是違反憲法第七十條規定，但是因為立法院通過了，你以後是要當大法官，是要解釋憲法，對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：剛才已經跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：你講了很多，你覺得有違反嗎？就告訴我有沒有違反就好。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：基本上，這是兩院之間……"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有違反憲法第七十條之規定？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：因為各自……"],["陳委員玉珍：普發現金1萬元這個法律案，有沒有違反憲法第七十條規定？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：立法院主張是法律案，然後行政院認為這是預算案，有爭執……"],["陳委員玉珍：行政院認為是預算案嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：行政院認為法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列，是不是？"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那你認為這個是法律案？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這個是有爭議的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那請問這個特別條例是法律案還是預算案？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這個就是有爭議，行政、立法之間有爭議。"],["陳委員玉珍：您認為有爭議就對了？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，有爭議，釋字第520號曾經有解釋過。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝，謝謝教授，我知道您的答案，您認為有爭議，您說行政院是預算案，我們認為是法律案，因為是特別條例。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：行政院是認為這涉及預算編列……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是您身為大法官被提名人，您認為這個……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是有爭議的。"],["陳委員玉珍：有爭議的，好，OK。","你認為國會在行使預算議決權的時候，就是總預算這種預算，有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有積極，有。"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：有嘛，所以立法院在通過預算之後，也有積極引導政府預算的作用？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：導正，但是憲法第七十條有明文規定，剛才委員是講預算……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：所以我才會講到第七十條。"],["陳委員玉珍：第七十條是預算，不是法律案。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，委員講預算……"],["陳委員玉珍：對於是法律案還是預算案，您認為有爭議？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：兩院有爭議。"],["陳委員玉珍：兩院有爭議，那司法院怎麼認為呢？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：司法院釋字第520號曾經做過解釋，可以循憲法增修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：陳教授，剛剛您在提到年改的時候，我是滿肯定的，因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權，就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之，也就是即便您擔任大法官，還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨。但是現在提到憲法第七十條這一條的時候，您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不太一樣，我想請教，您在1996年有一篇評析大法官釋字第391號解釋文，我有看你的簡歷，但並沒有在你的簡歷裡頭。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：啊？"],["陳委員玉珍：這一篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：簡歷裡頭？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：簡歷可能沒有附上來。"],["陳委員玉珍：簡歷沒有附上來？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但是我這一篇文章是在剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面。"],["陳委員玉珍：專書論文裡頭，但是我們上網搜尋沒有辦法讓公眾閱讀，是沒有公開？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有公開，上網搜尋應該書上……報告委員，那個書可以在書局找得到。"],["陳委員玉珍：要到書局，因為上網搜尋是沒有，沒關係，我想請教您，這篇文章的陳述您還記得嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我記得，對於大法官釋字第391號解釋，有些部分我有不同意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，這一條裡頭您特別提到，我來跟您回憶一下，這是您說過的話：預算額度修正權僅限於否決及刪減預算部分，此一見解實過於狹隘，且不符合國會在預算議決權的行使上，對行政權有優勢地位之本質。第二個，縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議，亦可另提法律案，為實質增加預算支出之提議。這是您說過的話，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以預算案是不行，而行政院跟我們的差別是說它是預算案，但您以前當學者的說法是縱使不在預算案提，也可以另提法律案，像這個特別條例就是法律案，您還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議。這是您的說法，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：這是我當學者的說法。"],["陳委員玉珍：你當學者的說法，當大法官想法會不一樣？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我跟委員報告一件事情……"],["陳委員玉珍：還有下一句。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：因此憲法第七十條對立法院審議預算議決權的限制規定，實際上並未具有重大意義。你覺得第七十條是沒有重大意義的。另外，國會在行使預算議決權時，亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用，而第七十條並沒有提到。經由國會定期改選，及傳播媒體監督，也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查議決權，所以第七十條可以做適度地鬆綁。這都是您之前擔任學者的意見，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。但是報告委員，第七十條是憲法規定的，修法是要大院的職權。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，我們不是在說修那個法，我們在說您當時對立法權、行政權，說國會有優勢嘛。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我可不可以報告兩點？第一個，第七十條我說要修，但這是大院的職權；第二個……"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在不是提要修，我現在是說禮拜五通過的那個法律案裡頭有沒有爭執？我是用你以前擔任學者時候的看法來跟您討論這件事情。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第二點，我跟委員報告，貴黨團曾經有問卷問我們擔任大法官是不是能夠基於獨立超然的立場，脫離學者的想法，以捍衛自由民主憲政……"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，所以你擔任學者時的想法就這樣……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我沒有說我脫離，我學者想法是一致的，但是我基本上尊重大院的做法。"],["陳委員玉珍：當你擔任大法官就……尊重什麼？再講一次。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：尊重大院的決議。"],["陳委員玉珍：尊重立法院的決議就對了？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以關於這一次普發現金1萬塊，您還是跟以前的想法一樣嗎？行政院雖然說憲法第七十條，但這不是適用憲法第七十條，你還是覺得……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我認為憲法第七十條可以修改……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，沒有那麼適合啦！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但是我尊重大院的職權。"],["陳委員玉珍：OK，謝謝您。至少我認為您在擔任學者時，剛剛我問的年改，您是尊重立法院的立法權，還有憲法第七十條，我們通過普發現金的是法律案、預算案，跟行政院的想法不一樣，立法權有優勢，您的學術想法應該是沒有改變的吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，這一點給予您肯定。","我想再跟您請教，也是很重要的一點，就是中央和地方財政權的劃分，您寫過一篇觀點是「從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權劃分」，你還記得你說過什麼嗎？關於中央和地方財政權。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是垂直權力分立。"],["陳委員玉珍：來，我來幫您整理一下，您說過國家財政權在行使與分配上，在合憲性無虞的情況下，是財政學者和實務運作者的任務。接著你又說到財政收支可能劃分不公，但原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的均權體制，不公也不是法學可以解決的。第三個，你說這可能會產生重中央忽略地方，這種劃分方法是否讓地方有參與決定權，是要思考的憲政問題。結論就是財政行使和分配是憲法學者和實務運作者的任務，我想實務運作者應該指的就是立法院，是我們的任務，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：關於實務運作者，我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力。"],["陳委員玉珍：是我們的任務嘛！第二個，有關怎麼劃分，比如說以前是中央比較多，你認為雖然劃分不公，不管是中央多還是地方多，因為中央和地方有很多劃分不公，但這個也不是法學可以解決的，這是您之前提到的，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，這要政治、財政……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個不是法學可以解釋的，雖然可能會出現中央多，或者是我們這次修過以後地方多一點，還是中央多，但這些都不是法學可以解決的，要財政學者用實務來做規劃，沒錯吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西，不是大法官可以解釋的東西嘛！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，這應該是行政跟立法……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以財政收支劃分法送到司法院憲法法庭時，應該就不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子，因為這不是法學者可以解決的問題，這是你以前的觀念，你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎？你認為中央跟地方的財政劃分是立法委員的任務，這沒問題吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：從民意來講，要由中央跟地方協力來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第二個，再加上財政學者相關的看法……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，過程中我們有辦公聽會，有請財政學者來發表意見。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力解決。"],["陳委員玉珍：您之前認為縱使劃分不公也不是法學可以解決的，現在還是這樣的想法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：劃分不公……因為財政、預算內容非常精算的部分，我們沒有辦法……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，所以這個不是法學可以解決的嘛！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但如果專業可以補充，由專業來補充，由財政學者來處理。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但是財政收支劃分法要釋憲的話，就不能受理，因為法學界並不能解決實務上的這些財政問題，對不對？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但是法院可以請鑑定人……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你以前的說法啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，但是可以請鑑定人。"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：可以請鑑定人，請財政學的學者專家鑑定。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔，可以請鑑定人。沒有，我的意思是，如果大法官人數夠的時候，釋憲可以受理呢？這不是法學可以解決的問題，你還是維持這樣的想法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，但是可以由鑑定人……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝，因為時間很短，我現在再問一題，您剛有特別提到離島，我要特別跟您感謝，但是我想請教你這一題，您擔任考試委員的時候，從109年到113年的發言次數的比率分別是65%、39%、20%，就是11次、20次、10次，最後兩年是7次、7次，是不是因為那時候年改任務已了，後來什麼業務就不大需要說了，所以你後面兩年發言的次數相當少，只剩下7次，52場院會裡頭您只發言了7次，32場也只發言了7次，是因為業務已了的關係嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是，報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有需要再關心其他事情？因為任務……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是，很多政務不是在院會裡面，院會大概就是針對大家已經有共識的部分來解決……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，大家有共識就不用那個……那我想請問您剛剛所提的，我看書面報告沒有，但口頭報告有特別提到離島的部分……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：您知道我是來自離島金門，關於我們離島地區特考規劃，考試院有開會吧？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：大家也都有共識，對不對？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對，大家有共識。"],["陳委員玉珍：在考試院第13屆第138次會議，9位考試委員中，有8位發言支持或發言建議，你知道嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：9位裡面有8位發言，哪一位沒有發言？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，由於之前已經跟考選部溝通過，而且我全力贊成，所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了，就不需要在院會……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，在離島特考中，您剛剛說這算是您在考試院的功績，但在離島特考的業務裡，9位考試委員裡，唯一沒有發言的就是陳慈陽教授！您對我們離島事務……因為您贊成，所以不用發言，是嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，委員的政治歷練非常豐厚，也知道很多事都需要大家事前的溝通協調……"],["陳委員玉珍：其他8個發言的，都是因為不贊成，所以來協調，是嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是、不是。其實我有很多問題在第一任時都已經全部說過了，所以不希望浪費院會的時間……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以9位委員有8位委員發言，有點浪費時間？9位裡只有您沒有發言。您剛才在口頭報告特別跟我說，您負責離島特考業務……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，9位委員裡面有2位已經續任過了，7位沒有續任，所以我們希望讓……"],["陳委員玉珍：2位續任的不再發言，但其實另外一位也發言了……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，雖然沒有發言，但至少通過了，所以我在此跟您表示感謝，雖然不發言，但有所表示。我的發言時間到了，我們還有其他的委員……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：您可以詢問與離島相關的人事單位……"],["陳委員玉珍：希望您能維持一樣的風骨。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝被提名人的答詢。","下一位請林國成委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"16811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16811","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a609b1b0c9928ee58d4bad9f551ce5fa921f80a0af5ed963d0f5bb23a620fdfca0545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-07-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-07-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-07-14T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-14T17:00:00+08:00","duration":30585,"影片長度":"08:29:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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Dieter Jagers"},{"start":1919.386,"end":1948.468,"text":"教授攻讀法學博士學位博士論文研究主題為內涵於中華民國台灣憲法及德國基本法之實質修憲權界限取得博士學位後及返國任教於母校國立中心大學法商學院法律學系現改制為國立台北大學從事憲法、行政法及環境法等教學及研究工作"},{"start":1949.269,"end":1973.281,"text":"研究領域分別在憲法、行政法及環境法等方面近來主要著作有基本權核心理論之實證化及其難題憲法規範性與憲政現實性人權保障與權力制衡憲政體制與法治國家21世紀憲法國家之新挑戰"},{"start":1974.878,"end":1997.579,"text":"在行政法領域有行政法總論、主編行政法實例演習一至三冊在環境法領域有環境法總論、合作原則之具體化廢棄物質循環清理法治之研究以及在簡歷資料當中所附之學術期刊及會議論文"},{"start":1998.9,"end":2020.937,"text":"在國際學術交流擴展上,自回國任教以後就密切地跟德、法、歐盟及美、日、韓等國建立雙邊及多邊的工法學及環境法學的學術合作及國際研討參與公共行政及工作經驗研究與貢獻"},{"start":2022.498,"end":2051.091,"text":"在學校行政方面自民國96年11月起本人擔任國立台北大學法律學院公法研究中心主任負責規劃推動公法學資研究發展自民國97年8月1日起應侯崇文校長之邀請擔任國立台北大學主任秘書一職協助推動校務行政並舉辦第一次的校務評鑑"},{"start":2052.492,"end":2077.253,"text":"社會服務方面本人常年擔任行政院、司法院、考試院、監察院、內政部及人事行政總署等院部術院審議委員會委員及法規委員會委員台北市人權諮詢委員會委員、高雄市法規委員會委員台南市及新北市術院審議委員會委員等"},{"start":2079.635,"end":2096.793,"text":"為輔助弱勢亦常年擔任法律輔助基金會輔助案件審議之副審委員積極為需要專業法律事務協助而又無力負擔訴訟費用及律師報仇之人民予以制度性的援助"},{"start":2100.49,"end":2127.168,"text":"為維護憲法所保障之訴訟權及平等權等基本人權就維護憲政體制與保障人權也擔任司法院大法官4至445號在解釋之前召開的憲法法庭的鑑定報告人闡述集會遊行法在當時已經與憲政現實不相符合且有侵害人權之餘此鑑解亦為司法院第445號"},{"start":2128.989,"end":2153.103,"text":"解釋所肯認是 擔任考試委員參與考選輪才及建立文官制度106年經蔡前總統提名立法院同意擔任考試院第十二屆考試委員首先推動縣市副局處首長及科長的職等提升以留住公務人才其次"},{"start":2153.823,"end":2174.044,"text":"推動制定公務人員退休之前撫恤法政務人員退職撫恤條例及相關法規在退撫三法送立法院審議時立法院對考試院通過這部分條文有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過"},{"start":2175.325,"end":2190.116,"text":"再來與行政院司法院共同推動司法改革有關司法官及律師合一考試之政策及修法同時參與公務人員考機法之修正公務人員職主職系等修訂決策"},{"start":2192.057,"end":2209.563,"text":"109年再度被提名為第十三屆考試委員並經立法院同意在任內代表考試院擔任院內司改國事會第四小組決議之司法官及律師等多合一的國家考試改革小組召集人"},{"start":2211.504,"end":2224.593,"text":"並為考試院、司法院及行政院三院協調會之考試院代表之一111年底完成法律專業人員資格及任用條例草案"},{"start":2225.413,"end":2238.663,"text":"於110年初送立法院審議透過參與考試院行政院及司法院憲政機關之實際運作對憲政實務有深入的體悟與驗證同時"},{"start":2241.005,"end":2258.662,"text":"努力推動公務人員退府新制因應司法院4-785號就解釋參與考公務員保障法及公務員服務法之修訂還有高普考科檢科等政策決定"},{"start":2259.563,"end":2281.869,"text":"總言之本人在兩任考試委員任內推動考試院相關政務不遺餘力同時亦擔任司法官暨律師特考的典事委員長以及多項考試之典事委員長典事委員及照理及人等為國家輪才而努力最後於113年第13屆考試委員任滿期間"},{"start":2286.91,"end":2307.585,"text":"考試院考量到金門、馬祖及澎湖等離島留才不易推動離島課考以留住各離島之公務人才且為因應第十四屆考試院尚未組成協助數萬名考生得以順利應試以保障考生權益"},{"start":2308.365,"end":2326.775,"text":"在擔任考試委員期間遵守憲法第88條規定考試委員須超出黨派以外依據法律獨立行使職權維護國家考試之公平及公正保障考生權益並確保行政中立"},{"start":2327.355,"end":2344.052,"text":"同時參與考試院、行政院及司法院共同研議法律專業人員資格及任用條例法律草案之相關會議對憲政體制有豐碩實務經驗更有助於大法官職權之行使"},{"start":2345.031,"end":2365.003,"text":"五、擔任大法官之自我期許。大法官職權主要在審理法規範憲法審查、裁判憲法審查、機關爭議、總統、副總統彈劾、政黨違憲解散、地方自治保障以及統一解釋法律及命令等案件。"},{"start":2366.324,"end":2386.674,"text":"個人長年來苦心鑽研憲法之學禮並密切關注我國憲政之發展及憲法人權保障在行政法學及實務之實踐同時曾參與考試院、行政院及司法院憲政機關之運作期許能更進一步將理論與實務結合"},{"start":2389.336,"end":2413.075,"text":"榮獲有幸能夠擔任憲法守護者之職務並遵守憲法第八十條之規定超出黨派之外依據法律獨立審判不受任何干涉來捍衛多元的自由民主憲政秩序奉獻自己綿薄之心力以上報告謝謝聆聽敬請不吝指正"},{"start":2423.037,"end":2449.711,"text":"好 謝謝被提名人之說明現在進行委員詢問首先請陳委員育貞詢問謝謝主席有請我們這個陳教授被提名人請被提名人"},{"start":2459.859,"end":2483.491,"text":"在看這個總統府送過來的這個簡歷還有您剛剛的這個口頭自傳的報告裡頭本席覺得您是一位這個理論與這個實務經驗兼具的是我們這個法學界法律界的一時之選那在看著你的簡歷後我想這是您第三次到這個立法院來接受這個被提名就是同意權的行使對吧"},{"start":2491.102,"end":2510.229,"text":"我們先來看看您過往的成績單2017年的時候蔡總統提名您擔任第十二屆考試委員那時候提名的新聞稿有提到為了配合年金改革的步伐多項重要年金改革的方案要交由考試院研擬"},{"start":2511.82,"end":2530.97,"text":"到了2020年5月的時候再度提名您擔任考試院第13屆考試委員裡面提到的是說您原來在12屆的考試委員任內有推動年改及相關考學制度的研議是熟悉考試院職人考量續任有助於經驗傳承"},{"start":2532.771,"end":2558.639,"text":"這是前兩次提名的相關的理由第一 這一次我們賴總統提名您擔任司法院大法官這一次的新聞稿是說您擔任考試委員的時候對推動年金改革退府新制左右貢獻這個是這次的提名所以您在自傳中也有提到說您擔任考試委員的時候是以推動年金改革為己任 對吧"},{"start":2560.202,"end":2584.164,"text":"那請問您擔任考試委員的時候就是已經就是那個時候您有完成當時蔡總統交付的任務嗎您認為呢報告委員基本上年金改革是考試院有幾任的院長都有這樣子的一個期待只是各黨針對部分的意見不同"},{"start":2584.744,"end":2609.943,"text":"譬如說所得替代率啦或者相關的一些配套措施所以基本上年輕改革這件事是應該在當時因為當時還沒有民眾黨所以在是國民黨跟民進黨在黨團都或者是立法院跟都共同的共識在這種情形之下呢我覺得我有部分達成有部分沒有達成"},{"start":2610.843,"end":2633.468,"text":"那您的這個您的自傳裡頭也有提到齁這個對立法院齁就這個有關年金改革這個退伏三法齁這個對考試院通過的部分立法院對考試院通過的部分條件有不同意見最後依立法院修正條文通過這就是您剛剛解釋的嘛所以您在考試院的院會裡頭齁在考試院第十二屆一百三十六次會議裡頭齁您這個捍衛您當時的說法是這個有書寫的齁這個"},{"start":2638.829,"end":2664.989,"text":"民主國家所有重要事項必須經由國會做最後決議因此立法過程中所以部長身為考試院的全序部長但是對於立法院最後決議不僅全序部長要尊重本院議欄就是考試院所以您是相當尊重這個立法院我們國會的這個立法權聽起來是這樣子是沒錯那第137次會議您也有提到在提到這個這個"},{"start":2667.683,"end":2692.728,"text":"從年改迄今很多法案都是透過立法院提案通過這是立法委員的限定執掌造成略過其他憲政機關權責的問題形式上無法苛責行政院此為立法委員的行為屬於目前責任政治及政黨政治運作的結果這些都是您說過的是所以在擔任考試委員期間您相當尊重立法院的立法行政權尊重國會的意見"},{"start":2694.088,"end":2698.184,"text":"您 請問 現在是抱持同樣的想法嗎"},{"start":2700.168,"end":2724.041,"text":"報告委員 我的想法一貫不只是從考試委員 從以前擔任學者基本上就認為立法院是最高民意機關 應該要予以尊重很好 那我們期許您擔任大法官一樣有這樣的風格那我想請教您幾個議題我們立法院之前三讀通過提高警消海巡退休所得替代率"},{"start":2725.682,"end":2734.467,"text":"這個您知道有三讀通過那請問對於這個所得替代這個您是會尊重我們立法院所通過的這個立法者形成的這個空間還是會認為說連改不應該走回頭路"},{"start":2738.071,"end":2765.029,"text":"如果作為一個被提名人的話我們尊重我絕對尊重立法院所做的這樣子的一個立法通過但是中間相關的過程當然是由立法院內部形成的這個共識所做成的已經共識了 三讀已經通過了所以會尊重立法院的這個職權尊重OK 好 謝謝您那這個這是錦霄這個 錦霄的這個部分前面這個是錦霄海巡"},{"start":2765.569,"end":2789.416,"text":"那還沒有修改的也有可能修改是我們公教人員所呼籲的要停砍退休金彈性調整所得替代率這個七大公教團體要說希望要停砍所得替代率這個部分退休金的這個部分那如果到時候這個部分在經過立法院的修改又三讀通過了這個所得替代率又有所改變的時候請問您到時候會尊重立法院立法者的這個"},{"start":2790.316,"end":2795.247,"text":"立法形成過程就尊重我們國會的這個權利呢還是還是會認為說不應該這個走回頭路"},{"start":2798.379,"end":2825.624,"text":"基本上在憲法秩序下依據憲法相關的規定跟憲法價值內容我是尊重立法院的所以不管您是擔任學者或是以後擔任這個大法官的話您都會這個尊重立法院所三讀通過這個法律案嗎是就是在憲法價值秩序內尊重立法院好 那想請教齁這個我們上個禮拜剛剛通過一個普發現金條例對吧"},{"start":2827.515,"end":2845.835,"text":"是 知道 普發現金一萬元我相關的政黨人士說增加預算有違憲爭議這個府院局採訪人員有違憲爭議因為憲法規定立法院審查預算不得為審查預算不得為增加支出制提議這個當初立法院送出來行政院送出來是1100現在這是特別條例說增加1350"},{"start":2847.757,"end":2874.574,"text":"那請問您是否認為立法委員可以提法律案為實質增加預算支出的提議並不違反憲法第七十條的規定因為我們現在聽到普遍很多有一些這個府院相關一些或者學者有提到說這次通過這個普發一萬元是違反這個憲法第七十條的這個規定那我想請問您認為說我們立法院立法委員可不可以提出法律案"},{"start":2875.575,"end":2902.675,"text":"做這個失智增加預算增加的這個提議然後沒有違反憲法第70條的規定報告委員法律見解如何報告委員因為在520號解釋曾經也有過立法院認為這是通過的法律案但是呢有可能在520號失智520號是有關核四的問題那當時呢大法官當時行政院或立法院也都提到可能是重大政策"},{"start":2904.076,"end":2927.594,"text":"因為是法律案跟或者是重大政策或預算案有爭執的時候大法官520號解釋就提供一個解決的方法就是憲法裡面有關行政立法互動的一個政治爭議的解決模式應該在這個憲法框架裡面行政跟立法可以去做這個框架的解決至於怎麼解決尊重大院跟行政院的立場"},{"start":2928.234,"end":2946.665,"text":"那現在就是 您回答很多 但是沒有回答到這個問題這個行政院 如果行政院有認為這是違反憲法第70條規定 這個腐發先進意外但是立法院通過了 如果您以後是要解釋當那個大法官 是要解釋憲法那對於這個您明確的解釋是什麼"},{"start":2947.947,"end":2961.911,"text":"報告委員 剛才已經跟委員你講了很多 你覺得有違反嗎就告訴我有沒有違反就好基本上這是兩院之間有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定中間中間這個都可以 我會讀啊但是有沒有違反憲法第七十條的規定這個普發現金一萬元"},{"start":2964.392,"end":2986.184,"text":"因為法院主張是預算 法律案然後行政院認為這是預算案行政院認為是預算案嗎行政院認為是法律裡面有涉及到實質的預算編列那你認為這個是法律案那請問這個是法律案還是預算案 這個特別條例這個就是有爭議 行政立法有爭議"},{"start":2987.405,"end":3016.196,"text":"對,有爭議謝謝教授,我知道您的答案,您認為有爭議你說行政院是預算案,我們認為是法律案我們認為是法律案,因為是特別條例行政院是認為這是涉及預算案但是你身為大法官的被提名,你認為說這個是有爭議的有爭議的,好,OK,好,來你認為國會在行使預決權的時候比如預算,就是總預算總預算這種預算有沒有積極引導政府政策的作用"},{"start":3017.389,"end":3024.427,"text":"呃 有積極 有有沒有是有嘛齁所以立法院在通過預算的時候也有積極引導政府預算的作用嗎齁"},{"start":3025.493,"end":3052.249,"text":"導政 但是憲法70條有明文規定因為剛才委員是講預算所以我才會講到說70條那法律案的話70條是預算嘛是法律案嘛那是對說這是預算還是法律案你認為也有爭議兩院有爭議司法院怎麼認為呢司法院520號就曾經有做過解釋可以循憲法徵修條文第三條有關兩院的政治爭議解決模式去處理"},{"start":3053.469,"end":3075.922,"text":"陳教授 剛剛您在提到連改的時候我是蠻肯定的因為您說您會尊重立法院的立法形成權就是跟您以前的學說一以貫之就是說即便您擔任大法官還是保有原來擔任教授的風骨但是現在在提到憲法70條這一條的時候您的說法似乎跟您當初擔任學者的時候不大一樣我想請教您1996有一篇"},{"start":3079.315,"end":3086.771,"text":"您看一下喔 平息大法官4日391號解釋文這一個我沒有看到你的簡歷 沒有在你的簡歷裡頭啊是為什麼"},{"start":3089.461,"end":3105.668,"text":"這篇文章怎麼沒有在你的簡歷裡頭?有啊,有在我的簡歷裡頭簡歷它可能沒有附上來但是我這篇文章是在剛才所報告的專書論文集裡面專書論文裡頭,但是我們上去搜尋上網去搜尋,上網搜尋是沒有辦法讓公眾來閱讀是沒有公開嗎?有公開"},{"start":3113.311,"end":3140.372,"text":"我們上網搜尋上網搜尋有應該書上如果報告委員那個書有可以在書局找得到要到書局如果上網因為上網搜尋是沒有說沒關係那我想請教您這篇文章您的陳述關聯您還記得嗎我記得我對於大法官4-391號的解釋對於他這個有些部分有不同的意見對您說的這一條裡頭您特別說的我來跟您"},{"start":3143.813,"end":3158.602,"text":"回憶一下這是您說過的話預算的度休政權僅限於否決或刪減預算此一見解過於狹隘不符合國會在預算預決形式上對行政權有優勢地位之本質"},{"start":3160.022,"end":3181.895,"text":"第二個 縱使立法院不在預算案中做成增加預算支出之決議亦可另提法律案為實質增加預算支出之決議這是您說過的話吧 沒錯吧所以說不管它是法律案 預算案上是不行但是行政課我們差別是他說它是預算案您的說法是 您以前當學者說法 您當學者說法是"},{"start":3183.297,"end":3200.756,"text":"縱使就是不在預算案題也可以另提法例案像這個特別條例就是法律案就算維新實質你還認為說可以實質增加預算支出之提議這是你的說法沒錯吧這是我當學者的說法你當學者的說法當法官想法會不一樣我跟委員報告一件事情"},{"start":3201.737,"end":3230.195,"text":"還有下一句因此憲法第七十條對立法院審議預算預決權的限制規定實質上並未具有重大意義你覺得七十條是沒有重大意義的國會在行使預算預決權時亦有其積極引導政府政策之作用七十條沒有提到 這都是你說的話經由國會地勤一來選 傳播媒體監督也可以達到實質監控立法院行使預算審查決議權所以七十條可以做適度的鬆綁這都是您之前擔任寫者的意見"},{"start":3232.894,"end":3237.546,"text":"但是報告文70條是憲法規定修法是要大院的職權"},{"start":3240.246,"end":3266.278,"text":"我們不在說修那個法我們在說您當時對這個立法院和立法權和行政權說這個國會有這個優勢嘛報告委員我可不可以報告兩點第一個70條我說要修但是是大院的職權我現在不是要提要修我修的說在現在以昨天禮拜五剛剛通過的那個法那個法立案以後有沒有這個爭執啊對您以前的看法我是用您以前擔任學者時候的看法來跟您討論第二點我跟委員報告"},{"start":3269.92,"end":3288.035,"text":"呃...呃...呃...貴黨黨員曾經有問卷要我們是不是能夠擔任大法官能夠基於獨立超人的立場脫離學者的想法以防衛自由民主憲政之權我沒有說我脫離我學者想法是一致的但是我基本上尊重大院的做法尊重大院的決議"},{"start":3292.538,"end":3305.701,"text":"就是尊重立法院的決議就對了所以覺得在這個我們跟這一次普發現金一萬塊的憲法您是還是跟您以前想法一樣嗎因為這個憲法行政院雖然說憲法70條但這不是適用憲法70條你還是覺得這個憲法我認為憲法70條可以修改但是是大院的職權"},{"start":3313.884,"end":3334.383,"text":"謝謝您啦至少我認為您在擔任這個學者的時候剛剛我問的連改的部分尊重立法院的立法權還有這個就是70條的這個部分憲法70條這個我們通過這個普發先進的法律案那個預算的跟行政想法不一樣立法權有優勢的這個地方您的想法應該是學術想法應該是沒有改變的"},{"start":3335.603,"end":3347.171,"text":"這一點跟您肯定那我再想跟您請教也是很重要的一點就是中央和地方財政權的劃分您一樣寫過一篇觀點是從我國實證憲法論中央與地方財政權的劃分你還記得你說過什麼嗎這個中央和地方財政權"},{"start":3352.973,"end":3375.135,"text":"這垂直權力分立嘛來我來幫您整理一下您說過國家財政權在行使與分配上在核心性無言的情況下財政學者這個是財政學者和實務運作者的任務接著您又說到說這個財政學者可能劃分不公這個原則仍然符合憲法上所要求的軍權體制不公也不是法學可以解決的"},{"start":3376.576,"end":3398.121,"text":"第三個你說這個可能會產生重中央忽略地方這種劃分方法讓地方有什麼參與群要思考憲政的問題所以這個結論就是說這個財政行使案分配是憲法決策和實務運作者我想實務的運作者應該指的就是立法院這邊是我們這邊的任務吧實務運作者我的看法是中央跟地方應該協力"},{"start":3399.941,"end":3425.879,"text":"然後第二個有關這個怎麼劃分比如說以前是中央比較多嘛那你認為這個雖然劃分不公啦不管中央多地方多因為中央可能多地方也可能多 劃分不公但是這個也不是法學可以解決的嘛這是您之前提到的所以這個不是法律可以解釋的嘛這個雖然可能會出現中央多或者我們這次修過以後地方多一點還是中央多但是這些都不是法學可以解決的要用財政學的用實務來做規劃嘛 沒錯吧"},{"start":3427.78,"end":3449.039,"text":"所以這根本就不是大法官可以解決的東西不是大法官可以解釋的東西所以這個財政訴訟案送到司法院憲法法庭的時候應該就是不是憲法法庭可以接受的案子因為這不是法學者可以解決的問題這是你以前的觀念你現在還是這樣的觀念嗎因為你認為中央和地方的財政官是立法委員的任務這沒問題"},{"start":3450.26,"end":3467.605,"text":"從民意來講要由中央跟地方協力來處理第二個再加上財政學者相關的看法再提出建議來讓中央跟地方協力來解決所以您之前認為眾矢劃分不公也不是法學可以解決現在還是這樣想法嗎"},{"start":3469.686,"end":3487.66,"text":"因為財政的預算那些內容非常精算的部分所以這個不是法學可以解決的嘛但是如果專業的話可以補充的話由專業來補充由財政學者來處理但是這個東西如果要拿去釋憲財政說法去釋憲的話這就不能受理啊因為法學界並不能解決這個實務上這個財政這些問題嘛對不對"},{"start":3490.302,"end":3506.067,"text":"但是法院可以請鑑定人可以請鑑定人財政學的學者專家鑑定人如果大法官提名人數夠的時候這事件怎麼受理呢這不是法學可以解決問題你還是會不會是這樣的想法嗎"},{"start":3507.267,"end":3532.52,"text":"是 但是可以由鑑定人才正因為時間很短 我現在再問一題因為您剛有特別提到我們離島我要特別跟您感謝但是我想請教您這一題您在那考試委員的時候109到113年發言次數比例分別是65 39 20就11次 20次 10次最後兩年是7次 7次是不是因為那時候年改任務已經了所以後來什麼業務都不大需要說了您後面兩年發言的這個次數相當的少只剩下7次"},{"start":3533.26,"end":3535.442,"text":"52場宴會裡頭您只發言了7次32場也只發言了7次是因為業務已經沒有了的關係嗎"},{"start":3540.97,"end":3561.198,"text":"所以就沒有需要再關心其他的事情很多政務不是在院會裡面院會大概就是已經做了大家有共識的來做成解決那我想請問您剛剛所提到剛剛您在口頭報告我看書院報告沒有但口頭報告有特別提到有關離島的這個部分您知道我是來自離島金門就專門我們離島地區這個特考這個規劃這個考試院有開會吧"},{"start":3567.841,"end":3575.553,"text":"是那大家也都是有共識嘛對不對對 大家有共識在考試院第13屆第138次會議裡頭是其中有九位考試委員這個有"},{"start":3578.464,"end":3606.163,"text":"有八位考試委員發言支持或是發言建議,你知道嗎?是九位裡面有八位發言,哪一位沒有發言?報告委員,因為之前已經跟考選部溝通而且是我全力贊成的所以我認為基本上我已經贊成了,不需要...沒有,在這個離島特考裡頭因為您剛剛有說這是考試院,您的算是公積啦但在這個離島這個特考的這個業務裡頭,唯一九位考試委員唯一沒有發言是我們陳子洋教授"},{"start":3607.293,"end":3622.05,"text":"你是對我們離島失誤因為我們贊成所以不用發言是吧報告委員委員的政治歷練非常的豐厚沒有知道很多都是事前大家的溝通協調所以其他八個發言都是因為不贊成所以來協調是嗎不是不是不是是因為"},{"start":3622.791,"end":3646.043,"text":"我在很多問題都在第一屆都已經全部說過了不希望浪費院會的時間所以九位委員有八位委員發言有點浪費時間九位只有您沒有發言耶您就跟我說您剛才在口頭包特別跟我說九位委員裡面有兩位是已經這個續任過的然後七位沒有續任所以我們希望讓兩位續任不再發言但另外一位也發了言"},{"start":3646.703,"end":3647.684,"text":"謝謝陳委員,謝謝被提名人的答詢下一位請林國成委員詢問"},{"start":3697.95,"end":3705.901,"text":"謝謝主席請陳大法官提名人請被提名人陳慈揚教授答詢"},{"start":3713.844,"end":3738.577,"text":"陳提名人我想因為本席啊針對不管你在當考試委員或者當寫者專家的時候當然我特別要提醒也就是上一次的大法官的提名七個通通不通過不通過的原因是因為力猶有"},{"start":3740.58,"end":3751.816,"text":"其中有一位劉靜儀教授他是國民黨的媽民進黨的媽民眾黨的柯文哲他媽但是本港"},{"start":3753.083,"end":3780.941,"text":"特別投贊成票也就是給劉靜儀教授這個才是要真正可以當大法官沒有送上面的壓力自己有自己的主張那我就感覺到很奇怪喔民進黨自己封殺劉靜儀教授這代表什麼就代表就是賴總統提名的大法官不一定"},{"start":3781.704,"end":3796.762,"text":"就只有聽賴清德的那就一定會通過這個我特別要提醒可是上一次是力猶有那這一次啊又加上兩個這樣的所有七個提名人當然"},{"start":3798.272,"end":3826.058,"text":"陳教授陳提名人是不是這樣我不曉得可是其他的部分我要給他形容這是傳統食物來陳提名人這是什麼乖乖乖乖是上次力猶有這次又加上什麼聽話的乖乖牌所以我拿這些乖乖就是台灣人的口味但是我坦白講"},{"start":3828.045,"end":3854.954,"text":"說實在的當一個大法官不是只有力有有也不能只有乖乖牌如果是這樣大法官的職責本來他就是維護憲華解釋憲華非常重要的職責所以這一點我特別要跟我們陳提名人特別提醒未來如果你當大法官以後"},{"start":3855.934,"end":3880.622,"text":"你有顏色 另外一回事但是千萬不能做乖乖牌這一點我要提醒你好 那個陳提名的來我現在啊我剛剛講力有有當然我這個你事實上你自己也知道在民進黨執政這九年當中你不管是考試委員或者你在授課的當中"},{"start":3881.656,"end":3896.911,"text":"我在想 民進黨任何一個跟法例有關的跟憲法有關的當然 紀律 增調會你是申請人欸那有很多法例案"},{"start":3897.881,"end":3919.755,"text":"那這些等等我們就不再浪費時間我要請問你過去是寫者專家現在你準備大法官被提名人你在這個部分跟民進黨的這些關係未來你如果通過以後你會有什麼起色請問"},{"start":3922.589,"end":3941.427,"text":"報告委員從我106年開始擔任考試委員整個就可以證明我在考試院任內所有的兼職當然不是政黨的兼職我從來沒有兼職過政黨所有的各院的這個術院審議委員等等全部辭掉"},{"start":3942.088,"end":3957.239,"text":"也不參加除跟考試院職權有關的相關的演講或報告這裡第一個我就可以證明我本身就是基於超然的地位在行使考試委員職權這以前可以驗證"},{"start":3958.54,"end":3985.153,"text":"那你在當大法官的時候也是會秉存你這種精神但是你在寫者專家對你不放心的就是確確實實你比力猶有更力猶有好沒關係這個是我們的感覺但是你的做法就是未來表現給人家看嘛當然也不能說過去如何做跟現在如何做未來如何做我們就是"},{"start":3986.033,"end":4012.819,"text":"把他蓋關這個論斷那這個當然對你也是不公平但是我特別再來請教你一個問題除了你當然跟民進黨力有有的那種顏色是非常密切但是我要請教你現在家人還有沒有在當有幾職或無幾職的民進黨的重要職務 有沒有"},{"start":4013.559,"end":4040.717,"text":"報告委員 我的太太郭立貞教授現在擔任民進黨的仲裁委員但是跟委員報告夫妻除了共贏婚姻生活 家庭關係以及親子關係以外個人的職業的發展跟個人的一個自己決定的這相關這個OK OK 好我現在疑問的是這樣 陳提名人我在疑問的 為什麼我要問這個"},{"start":4041.998,"end":4070.323,"text":"當然夫人她如何去做她想法怎麼去做跟你的職位當然不等於啦但是有一點因為本黨台灣民眾黨在問鑑的時候你提到這個部分你如果現在在宴會裡面直接講答我夫人是怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣這個問題我就不會問喔你答的是依憲法之規定"},{"start":4071.403,"end":4097.408,"text":"九條十條十一條辦理這個就有一點迴避的意思那個是指我個人有利益衝突的時候那個問題是問個人有利益衝突的時候所以我才依據憲法訴訟法並沒有問到說你家人或者是你的幾等親之內並沒有問所以我的回答是非常誠實的所以我坦白講啦"},{"start":4098.268,"end":4123.175,"text":"所以這樣就會讓我們猜疑你是在做迴避那有做就有做有什麼關係因為民進黨本來就是正當的政黨啊因為那個問題點只問我本人所以我的回答是針對本人如果有問家人我一定會回答除了太太以外其他還有沒有沒有沒有了齁我希望這樣剛才為什麼我會講"},{"start":4124.395,"end":4153.627,"text":"除了栗油油當然我們要尊重參加任何政黨那其他的職務無所謂但是當了大法官以後他是憲法為重所以不能有政黨色彩太明顯這是我們很在乎的也認為說過去你怎麼做讓我們感覺你是栗油油再加上栗油油但是 報告我人我在考試委員任內絕對沒有這樣子的情形"},{"start":4155.408,"end":4179.237,"text":"另外一個就是會死的問題會死的問題你也曾經講過喔你曾經講過也就是說執行死刑對於生命的侵犯行為請問現在以死刑一字節死指會死的這些你現在未來有什麼看法"},{"start":4180.166,"end":4208.915,"text":"報告委員我在回答貴黨團的意見裡面提到除了要堅守憲法的價值核心大法官還要堅固基於國民主權國民的情感及價值共識所以我在這邊可以理解也認同死刑的存在而且有感同身受報告委員還有一大步來來來陳提名人來你發表這個意思就是你反對"},{"start":4210.319,"end":4220.636,"text":"你反對的意思不是也就是說執行死刑是侵犯的立場所以這些有時候你現在講說你尊重"},{"start":4222.339,"end":4247.184,"text":"這個法行的那個死刑的存在那當然這個我們尊重你可是我把問題凸顯出來是讓你未來在這個部分你當了大法官以後在這個部分要特別去留意因為你在寫者在平常所表示的這些就讓就讓我們感覺是你根本就是會死的使用者吧從"},{"start":4248.984,"end":4264.293,"text":"我相信那句話是從理論推論的應該是從基本權核心理論推論出的你還是尊重有死刑的存在我還是尊重 因為這是基於國民主權我跟委員報告我留得的 我的背景"},{"start":4265.014,"end":4291.699,"text":"德國的法院的判決除了前面第一個是他的國規以外另外他會寫到以德意志人民之名來做成判決所以一定要尊重國民法官法也是如此我知道我知道我知道你我拜讀過你很多你很多這個大作啦所以你很多資料我都有蒐集那因為我是認為講這句話會產生讓人家你"},{"start":4294.699,"end":4309.322,"text":"不存在死刑的存在所以這一點要特別那你已經公開在大宴裡面已經講了你是死刑的存在你是尊重的所以這個部分要"},{"start":4310.043,"end":4327.219,"text":"未來大法官是在解釋憲法是在解釋違憲與否所以這個部分是特別提醒你接下來可能比較敏感也就是本黨跟我們立法院已經三讀通過的法庭直播的問題"},{"start":4328.34,"end":4356.566,"text":"那法庭直播已經三讀通過算一個法律案嘛因為這個法院組織法裡面其實這個也沒有牽涉到任何人那這些人我就感覺到很奇怪啊民進黨就一直在講事實神根本不能直播嘛就是法律神才有可能直播更何況兩個重點一個重點就是社會矚目重大的案子一個就是"},{"start":4357.898,"end":4383.403,"text":"那大家所關心重要的兩個議題才有可能直播這直播是被告可以申請法官做最後的裁定那我不曉得法庭直播不是什麼洪水猛獸那為什麼他們在反對這個叫做什麼自己心裡面有鬼所以一直在阻擋來陳提名人未來你是大法官針對這個問題你有什麼看法"},{"start":4386.329,"end":4400.214,"text":"報告委員我在貴黨團提的書面已經提到法庭直播基本上立法院已經通過尊重立法院的決定裡面有關法律審"},{"start":4401.614,"end":4419.296,"text":"開放直播為原則那事實審是例外而且呢要最後由法官依職權來認定當然當事人可以申請這些我都予以尊重不過有一件事我必須因為司法院已經也提到了裡面有非常多會涉及到隱私權"},{"start":4420.357,"end":4437.647,"text":"涉及到相關的權利事實神才會有隱世前來 我只是提法律的要件希望司法院 司法院已經承諾說要司法行政所長要就這個行為要去補配他我就認為你沒有誠心面對"},{"start":4438.607,"end":4464.784,"text":"今天我剛才已經講這是事實審當然不再實現了那法律審當然是社會矚目的重大議案你還在講什麼個人的隱私那是最後才法官來裁定嘛所以這些東西我不曉得他們在怕什麼大法委員我是說配套措施而已啦我並不是我是說配套措施不是說我有很多議題來陳提名人來我有很多議題"},{"start":4466.165,"end":4481.512,"text":"現在就是現在的政府尤其教育部啊用一個什麼健康有序不涉及正式矮化等等的東西用這種變通限制做協助交流但是"},{"start":4482.864,"end":4505.783,"text":"我們大家都知道陳提名人你也曾經去過大陸喔也做過協助交流那我們本院也有民進黨委員講啊講說交流就是統戰請問這是人民的行的權利請問你讚不讚同交流就是統戰你讚不讚同"},{"start":4506.641,"end":4529.567,"text":"人民有行動遷徙等等的自由這憲法明文保障但是依據憲法23條如果社交公共利益等等這些是可以以法律限制但是不能剝奪我講的是交流兩制跟統戰無關但是我們院裡面民進黨有委員講交流"},{"start":4530.387,"end":4536.908,"text":"什麼叫做交流 交流就是大家互相的知識的交換 交流的情感"},{"start":4537.902,"end":4559.979,"text":"並非有統獨的這些交流當然統獨不可以啊 法律規定得很清楚啊所以我現在請教你的就是交流就是統戰 你讚不讚同因為未來你是要做大法官喔大法官是要做憲法人民權利的解釋喔"},{"start":4560.74,"end":4584.892,"text":"所以你同不同意這句話報告我人這是大院各委員彼此之間的在職權形式的發表當然我們言論自由我們都尊重他來 陳提名人我跟你講我們任何一個立法委員他有免責權這個OK我們都尊重他言論自由但是我要請教你因為未來你是要做大法官"},{"start":4585.712,"end":4614.045,"text":"交流就是統戰你同不同意我認為我要你回答你同不同意交流就是統戰原則上交流並不是統戰但是有很多狀況之下要經大院來做相關的立法或配套這是遵守大院的職權陳教授 陳提名人你如果繼續這樣講我就開始要用這種不理性的來問你"},{"start":4615.225,"end":4640.036,"text":"因為你不同意就是不同意嘛這本來交流就不是統戰嘛那明明就是要把它交流就把它變成統戰這叫做什麼這叫做政治化的思想啊什麼這樣就統戰那如果是這樣你幾年下來2013年2014年2017年你都有學術啊你有去見過統戰部的人嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":4643.357,"end":4663.18,"text":"那為什麼要把你醜化 你也是一個統戰啊所以陳提名的人 未來你是要當法官我要的就是這一句話你到底同不同意 你已經講說不同意但是尊重他的言論自由我一樣 跟你的心態一樣我也反對這句話就是統戰但是最起碼的話"},{"start":4664.451,"end":4689.401,"text":"也就是其他的部分他們要釋憲你就有一個基本的立場好 另外我們大家知道陳提名人你也是反對反核的反核的但是我們本黨8月23號準備核三的啟用但是我必須要提醒我們陳提名人也就是"},{"start":4691.013,"end":4705.346,"text":"世界各國都在用核能過去是緩核現在變成核能是安全但是你的大作幾個當中甚至於你是核四的這些審查委員"},{"start":4706.067,"end":4728.317,"text":"你都指張要會合請問一下你當了大法官以後你會把這個緩和的觀念帶進大法官法庭裡面去做這些不利於核能的這些種種但是我特別要提醒七大工業國先進國家都已經把核能當成一個"},{"start":4730.158,"end":4744.933,"text":"環保的花店的東西請問你針對這個議題陳提名人你有什麼看法報告委員這是我將近30年前核能科技的狀態所提出的看法"},{"start":4748.975,"end":4761.822,"text":"三十年後因為我八年擔任考試委員全力專注在考試院的職權對環境法這一塊基本上已經沒有再去接觸它了那我同意啦"},{"start":4762.202,"end":4779.416,"text":"我同意你的說法因為三十年前當然時代轉變有時候看法會改變但是我特別要提醒你核能世界趨勢是過去緩和是有理現在緩和是要理性的"},{"start":4780.417,"end":4802.611,"text":"緩和當然這些包括日本鄰近國家我們可以看大家都在用嘛所以我希望你當了大法官以後千萬千萬不能把三十年緩和的這個堅定想法用在憲法的解釋這樣我特別要提醒我們陳提名人最後一個來最後一個"},{"start":4803.533,"end":4831.133,"text":"我們大家都知道 現在的大法官陳宗珍大法官你過去在當考試委員的時候確實他在當考選部部長你們對以律師考試等等你確確實實你們兩位有所堅持跟有所質疑請問一下你現在大法官通過以後就變成又是同事"},{"start":4832.314,"end":4848.201,"text":"會不會前車之鑒又發生你跟他觀念不同有爭執僵持不下的情形請問我們陳提名人針對這個你有什麼解說自古文人相親"},{"start":4849.321,"end":4871.257,"text":"彼此之間的學術見解都不一樣所以在學界發生爭執的狀況都是常識但是私底下大家都是法界的同事朋友絕對不會因為這樣影響到私底下法界的朋友跟同事之情誼但是有關公事部分我們當然就堅持自己的見解"},{"start":4872.518,"end":4901.698,"text":"那個陳提名人我想今天我都很直接的問你一些過去不管你30年前的堅持或者考試委員的等等或者你過去跟民進黨種種的關係這個都無所謂隨時我也同意時代轉變不一樣但是當大法官當任何一個職責有任何一個職責的這些轉變跟堅持最後一個我必須要提醒我們陳提名人心中有憲法"},{"start":4903.639,"end":4924.637,"text":"腦中有人名不要有綠色的想法要有自己邪術涵養的主張所以我真的蠻期待我們陳提名人謝謝林委員 謝謝被提名人"},{"start":4930.202,"end":4941.408,"text":"下一位劉建國委員之詢問以書面移出列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請葛如君委員詢問"},{"start":4961.477,"end":4965.272,"text":"謝謝主席 有請陳慈揚被提名人被提名人打選"},{"start":4972.335,"end":4992.025,"text":"委員好陳貝提名人早安檢視您的履歷過去學術以及行政閱歷豐富相信您一定了解大法官的主要職責是釋憲也就是憲法的守護者也就是要確保國家機關的行為符合憲法的規定但是非常弔詭的是"},{"start":4993.806,"end":5020.02,"text":"2017年您被提名為考試委員的時候也曾經到立法院來被詢當時您在答詢的時候清楚地表明了我國現行的憲政體制是一個問亂的憲政體制現在曾被提名的人可能反過來作為守護這樣一個曾經被您批評是問亂的憲政體制想請教您如何面對這樣一個與您過去理念相互矛盾的立場"},{"start":5020.72,"end":5049.785,"text":"又要如何能夠守護這個曾經被您評價為問亂的憲政體制呢好 謝謝委員報告委員剛才在陳育珍委員在詢詢的時候我已經本來要回答就是作為一個學者既學住自由包括憲政體制司法行政立法都可以批判但是呢作為一個體制內就如同我當時擔任考試委員一樣就必須遵守整個憲政體制的規定"},{"start":5050.345,"end":5075.393,"text":"是 對不起 所以您的意思是您還是認為憲法是混亂的只是您願意持續守護這個混亂的憲政是這樣嗎憲法不是混亂 是它的制度的問題所以現在憲法又是混亂了啦行動原則喔 您說的是混亂喔所以現在憲法不混亂了嗎我只是指憲政體制不包括人權保障所以憲政體制現在還是混亂的那你要來守護它"},{"start":5078.247,"end":5100.925,"text":"對憲法來講 八年一瞬 但是您卻濁是驚非昨天可以很混亂 結果今天現在要來守護憲法我可以說您是最不適合守護憲法的人本席過去也有了解一下您過去的事蹟您在2007年和陳明通教授 陳英賢教授共同起草了中華民國第二共和憲法草案 簡稱台灣憲法"},{"start":5102.566,"end":5130.538,"text":"雖然當初主要有目標是法理台獨本席是不支持的部分的內容本席不支持但是裡面有一些內容的精神本席卻蠻有興趣的譬如說總統需即化您在這一步您號稱的新憲制度設計當中將憲政體制從總統制要改為內閣制顯然是有看到總統權勢過重可能帶來的影響政黨對決可能對國家造成的危害"},{"start":5131.338,"end":5153.809,"text":"內文當中也說了如族群分裂資源內耗政府空傳等請問被提名人啊您被總統提名為大法官人選前有沒有跟賴清德總統討論過要建議我國應該要把體制改為內閣制啊您剛剛說制度紊亂嘛避免因為總統獨大政黨對決造成族群分裂政府空轉的危害有沒有跟賴總統提過"},{"start":5155.029,"end":5168.877,"text":"沒有沒有提過那今天賴總統提名您來擔任大法官卻連基本的政治理念和學術立場都沒有搞清楚您沒有責任跟他提一下嗎還是您現在要說賴總統自己沒看文件啊"},{"start":5170.2,"end":5197.12,"text":"報告委員這是尊重賴總統的這個自由的決定自己的這個跟我一個平凡的教授我想沒有辦法去做任何的一個建議哇突然間從提名人又變成平凡的教授你是被提名要擔任大法官的人啊沒有關係等同於現在剛剛您這句話已經向全體國民宣告"},{"start":5197.76,"end":5219.508,"text":"這是一份完全不負責任的名單啊要立法院如何同意沒有關係我們要來看啊如今賴總統的這些專權獨斷獨行的行為其實都在不斷加劇社會的分歧不論是將不支持他的人都說成是雜質或是為了政治目的要來抹滅歷史將96.2%的國人都列為其餘人口"},{"start":5223.869,"end":5241.442,"text":"以及一昧的對抗擁有多數民意支持的立法院種種作為甚至遭到外媒紐約時報直接批評可能淪為對岸加大對台軍事施壓的藉口我們應該要反過來詢問陳倍庭名人"},{"start":5242.503,"end":5270.779,"text":"在被賴清德總統提名以後您還認同您18年前的主張嗎我再給您一次機會你還有想要防止總統專權對國家對社會造成的危害嗎還是您在賴清德取得權力您被提名以後就覺得現行的制度好棒棒我的學者立場不變但是在這裡尊重大院修憲的權限所以您認同應該要推動內閣制"},{"start":5273.469,"end":5301.815,"text":"至於制度選擇當然都是由大任所以您認同總統制有可能會專權對吧這是我學者的一貫立場那現在的立場是什麼您現在是被提名人我不是詢問學者我的學者立場一貫不變現在的立場所以你還有學者人格跟大法官人格啊是這樣嗎不是因為如果擔任大法官基本上是憲政的職務要遵守憲法沒有關係啦那所以您之前學者的研究"},{"start":5302.435,"end":5324.202,"text":"根本資料都不用附上了是不是啊所以現在的陳馳揚啊已經在打臉18年前的陳馳揚啊 是這樣嗎拿人手短 吃人嘴軟 是這樣嗎該不會又是時空環境不同現在還多一個角色不同啊中華民國的憲法這幾年都沒有變變的只有是凝聳考試委員變成大法官被提名人"},{"start":5325.022,"end":5337.071,"text":"這種屈原附事讓人懷疑的行為根本沒有資格擔任大法官但是接下來我還是要繼續請教陳倍庭名人啊您目前被提名擔任的是哪一個國家的大法官中華民國"},{"start":5338.422,"end":5363.973,"text":"沒錯 您一定曉得大法官的職權之一是宣告政黨解散之判決根據憲法第77條訴訟法第77條政黨之目的或行為危害中華民國之存在或自由民主之憲政秩序者主管機關內政部得申請憲法法庭為宣告政黨解散之判決想請教您"},{"start":5364.853,"end":5390.161,"text":"日前民進黨的政治人物同時也是內政部長劉世芳在民進黨公開宣講的場合高喊要讓賴清德做台灣國的主人這樣的說法實質上是不是應該已經危害中華民國的存在啊如此一個危害中華民國存在的政黨您是否認同內政部應該要申請憲法法庭宣告民進黨解散"},{"start":5391.457,"end":5414.342,"text":"報告委員這個條文是從德國參照過來的德國裡面特別重要的一點是必須以暴力脅迫或用武力的方式來破壞一個國家的存在跟自由民主憲政我現在講的是憲法訴訟法第77條我不是在講刑法100條喔你不要自己在這裡把幽魂拿出來喔"},{"start":5415.282,"end":5441.855,"text":"我再問一次假如內政部向憲法法庭申請裁判你是否同意剛剛這樣的說法民進黨是一個危害中華民國存在的政黨憲法訴訟法規定是把憲法徵修條文拿過來作為他的一個職權我講的是憲法訴訟法第七條解散政黨的部分這樣子有沒有應該要被解散政黨這個要符合暴力脅迫用武力的方式"},{"start":5442.554,"end":5464.414,"text":"好,沒有關係,暴力脅迫大家有很多定義啦那我再請教,您認同這個說法當中總統和人民的關係是主人和奴隸嗎?是嗎?絕對不是,我們是一個國民主權的國家請你朗讀一下憲法第一條中華民國基於三民主義為民智、民有、民享之民主共和國"},{"start":5465.52,"end":5476.726,"text":"順序上有點錯誤但是沒關係 謝謝您民有民智民享所以這個說法絕對有沒有違憲台灣中華民國的主人要變成賴清德"},{"start":5478.118,"end":5503.133,"text":"報告委員 我在四字四四五號裡面提到有關主張共產主義跟分裂國土我認為這樣的言論是基本上是政治言論是言論自由 這應該尊重所以內政部長自己有解散政黨的權利他也可以有言論自由總統也可以有言論自由我現在講的是民進黨 執政黨內政部長跟賴清德總統啊"},{"start":5508.314,"end":5528.88,"text":"是言論自由因為政治如果擔任政府職務的話會被限縮顯然您剛剛突然發現了您的大腦也有角色扮演的時空錯亂人事時地物只要不同憲法的解讀正義的解讀在您心中就有所改變"},{"start":5530.06,"end":5550.729,"text":"我還是要來問陳貝提名人您30年前曾經在學術研討會上發表過有關立法院對預算審查案絕弦範圍的看法當時您指出今日社會由於自然及社會人文科學的不斷進步政府事務繁重所遇規範事務增多"},{"start":5551.149,"end":5580.168,"text":"所以對人民對國會的要求不斷的增加而是希望國會積極的督促政府使政府在各方面的事務上為主動之作為因此我國憲法第70條對於預算而修正權的禁止似乎未考慮到現代國會在政府施政上具有積極引導的作用也就是說啊30年前您主張憲法第70條立法院應該要有所鬆綁"},{"start":5581.089,"end":5603.21,"text":"他對預算增額的權利您30年前開創性的看法可以說是許多學術巨擘 往塵莫及請問陳貝提言 30年後的今天社會變化有沒有更快啊自然科學有沒有更快啊AI有沒有變得更快啊請問您對放寬立法院預算額修正權的立場有沒有更加堅定"},{"start":5604.331,"end":5622.867,"text":"這是我學者的見解但是要修改憲法70條憲法70條的規定必須由大院來修改那我現在問的是您的見解啊陳被提名人是學者也是被提名人的見解啊剛才我已經講過我學者的見解不會改變"},{"start":5623.447,"end":5649.976,"text":"那現在的見解呢現在見解學者不會改變但是這只是我們要尊重憲政體制修憲權在大院剛剛陳玉珍委員問您啦你說我們國民黨黨團給你的問題上面叫你放棄你學者的身份很抱歉啦 您搞錯了是您自己的答案說您要脫離學者研究見解的堅持是您自己要脫離的沒有人叫你脫離喔進來啦 我們要知道齁"},{"start":5652.937,"end":5664.849,"text":"這些說法根本讓你表達出你在國會殿堂上不敢本於職權說出你自己內心的真話就表示你不是一個合適的大法官人選我們進來要來繼續看美國總統川普"},{"start":5668.413,"end":5695.987,"text":"要做各種的關稅政策現在可能25%可能15%可能35%我們都希望台灣可以穩定的經濟發展我想您30年前的堅持我們希望您自己要感到欣慰也要持續的支持我們認為這才是您有機會作為大法官的風骨接下來時間有限我想要繼續問陳輩提名人其實我很佩服你"},{"start":5696.747,"end":5720.219,"text":"我想AI持續發展也應該要重視環境所以您過去曾經對環境法的領域發表多篇的專書和著作甚至曾經在環境法總論當中提到國家對於環境有積極保護的義務即便對於國家的義務透過第三人來達成最終保護環境的責任還是要由國家來負責"},{"start":5721.72,"end":5732.43,"text":"請問您是否支持環境權入縣也就是在憲法當中明定環境權為國家英語保障之基本人權是不是還持續堅持這是無庸置疑的"},{"start":5733.254,"end":5756.602,"text":"很好 同樣的著作當中您也提到受汙染者可以由國家在確保權利上面來主張他們的生存權以及保障人身權的自由人民要免於國家的不法侵害以及受到干擾國家要給予基本權利保護如果基本權受到侵害的時候人民可以依憲法第16條提起救濟"},{"start":5757.722,"end":5779.367,"text":"我想問目前颱風丹納斯襲擊南台灣摧垮屏東外海的太平洋光電輔板說經濟部替廠商發文說這是一個測試說光電板在颱風來襲前就已經移除結果貼文裡面就有光電板被網友說這是薛丁格的光電板"},{"start":5780.087,"end":5804.258,"text":"無論是光電板還是浮台造成環境的污染是事實請問被提名人為了捍衛您一直以來提倡您剛剛也確認提倡的環境權國家應該要提供服務生態保存的立場你是不是支持在地民眾採取法律途徑來進行救濟甚至在所有法律途徑用盡以後可以向憲法法庭申請裁判"},{"start":5805.579,"end":5823.93,"text":"我是尊重但是國家應該更要更積極在為提起救濟人民提起救濟之前就應該採取比較積極的作為很好很好所以針對經濟部表示如果有媒體或網友再提屏東光電板事件將向警方報案"},{"start":5824.79,"end":5837.885,"text":"以示警惕啊請問站在大法官被提名人的立場您贊成政府自己沒有先處理好就以告發為手段企圖要侵害人民的言論自由嗎請回應我反對很好我想齁"},{"start":5841.465,"end":5855.468,"text":"在這裡我們可以看到所以您是反對經濟部這樣的態度對嗎你反對國家要用這種態度對待我們的人民對吧如果經濟部有這樣的態度我反對現在已經是事實所以你反對吧如果是的話我反對"},{"start":5856.556,"end":5879.003,"text":"事件發生至今經濟部對於媒體民眾以及專家學者的提問採取已讀不回的態度甚至要提告的方式要侵害人民的言論自由甚至要打壓第四權我想您今天站在國會的殿堂你說你反對你有沒有公開表達過任何一句話除了我們在這裡詢問您以外"},{"start":5881.121,"end":5903.288,"text":"報告委員因為如剛才跟其他委員報告過的我已經8年沒有從事環境法研究沒有機會在那個場合裡面去做現在的國家針對環境有非常多錯誤的能源政策希望您可以好好補上最後您在報告當中的自我期許裡頭表達要擔任憲法的守護者"},{"start":5904.068,"end":5931.419,"text":"但是呢我希望來問您一下您如何解答這一條復議時啊如今全體立法委員是二分之一以上決議維持原案行政院長應即接受該決議憲法內明文表示啊行政院長就要接受啊結果呢我們的行政院卻在復議遭立法院否決以後跑去釋憲申請暫時處分完全沒有依憲法規定來行事你怎麼看待行政院這種行為"},{"start":5932.543,"end":5954.347,"text":"報告委員 院長應該是應該要接受所以說好像雖然有提起暫時處分等等是不是已經生效了 法律是不是已經生效了這是不是事做已經是接受了我想您站上質詢台前就應該要了解您現在要背書要捍衛憲法的政府跟現行的狀態要做好功課啊"},{"start":5955.107,"end":5972.137,"text":"這個案子真的是違憲像財化法為例行政院在2月27號提出復議並且在3月10號被立法院否決結果行政院卻在5月21號提出釋憲這樣完全違背憲法最高性原則的行為"},{"start":5973.118,"end":5998.432,"text":"司法院絕對不能放任 憲法都寫明了行政院長應該即接受決議 行政院卻不斷挑戰憲法的用字解釋您憲法守護者 你是不是給我們一點保障報告委員 附議跟憲法訴訟是一個法律究竟一個是政治的途徑他直接違反憲法徵修條文第三條第二項啊"},{"start":5999.485,"end":6009.443,"text":"你要守護憲法行政院帶頭違反憲法從政治途徑來講他應該是接受了所以說就是法律已經生效了"},{"start":6010.009,"end":6034.062,"text":"他提出釋憲 所以您之後也會接受就對了沒有 釋憲是另外一回事不是 釋憲是法律途徑所以您現在正在曲解這一句行政院長應急接受您一分鐘前的說法 您現在又不同意了我們要再次期許你作為憲法的守護者你要捍衛憲法的最高性"},{"start":6034.662,"end":6057.545,"text":"不要為了政治目的迎合其他人去曲解憲法條文這種做法不要再次出現我時間有限啦我還是要再詢問在行政院對憲法訴訟法提出附議失敗以後您剛剛說嘛附議失敗就接受啦有嗎有接受嗎我們來看一下傳出民進黨要求建議大法官要自提處分"},{"start":6058.306,"end":6082.202,"text":"而不告不理是司法權的標準法官應該要被動行使職權否則就是求人間裁判請問如果有政黨行政單位要求建議大法官如何做事對司法下指導期政治的手要伸到司法的體系以您的法學素養這樣的訴求這樣的行為沒有問題嗎發生這樣的狀況您覺得司法院應該要怎麼做呢"},{"start":6082.97,"end":6109.91,"text":"如果有這種狀況 司法權應該基於超然的地位不予接受 如果有那應不應該予以譴責 這不是如果 這是已經發生那剛才委員已經垂詢了說司法應該被動了 不告不理所以縱使如果有的話基本上司法權是不應該接受但是要不要譴責 不是司法權應該主動去做任何表態的"},{"start":6110.31,"end":6122.024,"text":"好 我想依據中華民國憲法第80條明文規定法官須超出黨派以外依據法律獨立審判不受任何的干涉"},{"start":6123.015,"end":6149.95,"text":"我們看到現在台灣執政黨這樣的行為啊可以說是公然的毀憲亂政啊那你說不告不理嘛那現在有民眾要告有政黨要告您是不是會接受啊剛剛有一個政黨疑似這個違憲啊剛剛有政黨的說法直接違反憲法第一條這個說法更甚至要來干預司法如果有人告發有人要提起憲訴您接不接受"},{"start":6151.63,"end":6174.364,"text":"報告委員 憲法法庭是15人合一制而且要看到事實證據我現在是問您單一個提名人我要看到當時的事實證據才能夠確認他不符合憲法訴訟法的要件不管您現在什麼新憲法啦還是人色跳動啦我想國人很難放心把捍衛中華民國憲法的責任交給您啦 謝謝"},{"start":6178.701,"end":6186.557,"text":"謝謝葛委員也謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行詢問現在休息"},{"start":6804.298,"end":6806.179,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行委員詢問請郭委員預請詢問有請陳教授請被提名的人答詢"},{"start":6836.874,"end":6855.69,"text":"委員好我想憲法法庭從去年其實到現在一直都是處於停擺的一個狀態那憲法法庭大部分應該是95%以上應該申請釋憲的都是人民您對這樣子的一個狀況目前憲法法庭癱瘓當中您有什麼看法"},{"start":6856.875,"end":6874.402,"text":"報告委員因為我們憲法訴訟法有修改當然尊重大院的職權但是各國有關憲法訴訟法相關的規定都有原則跟例外或者我們說非常態的一個規定但是這次憲法訴訟法"},{"start":6875.662,"end":6902.832,"text":"這個部分好像並沒有看到所以才會造成這樣子對人民權利保障上面可能會有所中斷不過這是大院的職權尊重大院的職權我們當然也很遺憾看到這樣子的結果因為有很多人民申請的釋憲案到目前為止還是停放在那個地方沒有被解決我想訴諸憲法法庭申請釋憲其實是人民最後的保護自己的一個手段"},{"start":6903.24,"end":6931.509,"text":"但我們真的並不樂見這樣的一個結果好那我想呢請教這個請教說這個前一陣子我們看到這個新北屠城發生了嚴重的一個家暴的一個命案喔那我想這件事情應該是也讓很多的社會大眾開始議論紛紛喔那我想這名男子呢這個行兇的這個所謂的加害者他明明已經被核發了所謂的保護令但是仍然在開庭之後他還是"},{"start":6933.033,"end":6953.365,"text":"對這個兩名的女性來進行施暴甚至直接造成兩名女性的一個死亡那我想這個案件當中其實我們也看到家庭暴力防治法實務在運作當中可能也出現了一些所謂的這個法律明定就算他違反了保護令他可以裁定羈押但是在實務上"},{"start":6954.977,"end":6982.368,"text":"我們看到法官對於所謂的羈押的一個裁定的比例其實還是偏低那導致這個被這個保護令對於所謂的這個加害人的強制力並不足那在您認為這現行的羈押一個制度在比例原則之下是不是能夠足以保護受害者那如果在制度上他是無法防範明知有暴力風險的人再次的加害這是不是真的構成了對人身安全保障的憲法失靈的一個狀態"},{"start":6983.428,"end":7010.209,"text":"那我想就請教您如果將來您擔任所謂的大法官那會如何從憲法的觀點來審視這類的一個制度的漏洞報告委員憲法秩序多元憲法秩序之下要保障了人權從未出生的胎兒一直到成年甚至到老年年長者以及甚至對死亡者的整體的一個保護"},{"start":7011.05,"end":7030.49,"text":"那這個保護的整個過程以及整個的制度的配套這都是國家應該負起的一個保護義務那在這個保護義務之下呢會透過行政跟立法兩者之間的協力來制定相關的政策以及法規以及執行"},{"start":7031.09,"end":7053.671,"text":"那在這些內容當中因為個人曾經擔任過非常多的法規委員那法規委員會的委員裡面對於各種修法的規定跟建議在這個過程當中我深深體會到土法不足以自行因為很多的法律規定都是很抽象的"},{"start":7054.071,"end":7083.032,"text":"必須靠實務的整個發展來加以配合當然也要靠實務的所謂我們的公務員來能夠有同理心來一起來補充這些法律的不足我們進一步來請教一下這個陳教授就是比例原則啦我們講這個比例原則是不是可以在這一類的高風險的情境之下讓位是讓位給所謂的這個被害人保護優先這個部分如果江南寧是大法官您的見解"},{"start":7085.237,"end":7103.542,"text":"事實上比例原則上面因為這種現實的狀況出現了非常多在修法方面基本上要透過相關的配套措施更加嚴格的來針對相關的一些漏洞來加以填補基本上這些漏洞的填補"},{"start":7105.142,"end":7129.515,"text":"還是並沒有違反比例原則所以基本上在這個部分我是贊成的贊成在這個部分要更針對實務上的這些實例來補充法律的漏洞剛剛講到這個所謂的實例其實我們看到有很多的所謂的家暴的事件當中其實都有兒童涉及那就您的觀點你怎麼看待兒童最佳利益原則在憲法當中是不是具有實質的一個拘束力"},{"start":7131.777,"end":7156.486,"text":"報告委員兒童的利益這個部分呢是憲法保障的重要的法義特別在我們台灣少子化的情形之下兒童的保障特別兒童是一個毫無反抗能力或完全沒有辦法自衛能力的這樣子的一個基本權主體所以在這裡保障上面應該要更加的強化這方面的保障那主管機關"},{"start":7157.766,"end":7176.22,"text":"應該要有這方面的一個更強化更積極的作為那如果未來將來有人申請釋憲就類似的這樣子的一個案件他申請的釋憲你認為這個羈押制度對於所謂的被害人保護不足而構成所謂的違憲您認為大法官有沒有機會可以有介入的空間"},{"start":7177.11,"end":7199.044,"text":"大法官的解釋或判決基本上是在補充立法的不足但是大法官一旦透過原則性、補充性各方面的解釋以後還是最後希望透過立法機關定定法律依據這樣解釋的方向或判決的方向來定定法律來補足這些法律的漏洞"},{"start":7199.764,"end":7220.388,"text":"了解那接下來我想要再請教就是兒少性侵害我想這個是社會非常沉痛的一個議題喔那也是不可以忽視的一個創傷之一啦那這類的這個所謂的這個犯罪喔不僅僅是對於所謂的少年或者是兒童他們是造成長期的影響而且是長達好幾年不管是心理上或者是在精神上"},{"start":7220.908,"end":7239.455,"text":"他其實都受到這樣子的一個傷害跟不正義的一個對待了那我想這個國家其實有責任要提供給就回應這樣子的一個需求來針對這樣子的一個關於像兒上性侵害的一個司法制度上能夠來保障這個被害人在整個所有的成長的一個過程當中"},{"start":7240.295,"end":7255.169,"text":"但是我們的刑法跟民事求償的部分其實對於所謂的性侵害犯罪的追溯期限還有民法對於所謂的侵權的一個行為所設的損害的一個賠償的要求的期限"},{"start":7255.549,"end":7284.099,"text":"其實它都是有期限的但是往往在整個所有的這個期限固定的一個時間許多的兒少如果遭遇到這樣子的一個不幸的事件的時候他長期的心理的恐懼而且在遭受所謂的權力不對等的一個狀況之下多重的壓力之下其實往往都沒有辦法在期效就是在期限當中能夠主張自己的一個權利這個是我們看到的一個現狀那我想陳教授"},{"start":7285.818,"end":7306.373,"text":"這個性侵害其實對於所謂的這個兒童來說其實是非常隱晦而且是非常深層的一個傷害那對於少年或者是對於我們的兒童那在整個所有的壓力權力不對等或者是他無法在法律規定的時間當中他去提起所謂的訴訟其實是不是也同樣的忽略了憲法所保障的身體自主"},{"start":7306.793,"end":7318.481,"text":"跟人格尊嚴還有他自己本身的救濟權那您認為在某種特定的情況之下對於所謂的性侵害的被害人他設了這樣子的一個絕對的時效有沒有構成違憲的問題"},{"start":7319.722,"end":7331.936,"text":"報告委員剛才陳玉珍委員有在提問有關死刑的問題本來要補充回答一個問題在這邊是否容許我一起補充這段時間大家都針對有關死刑的問題的討論但是都沒有針對"},{"start":7337.282,"end":7352.211,"text":"我們說活著更痛苦也就是說被害家屬的傷痛身心靈的傷痛的一個照顧這是國家很重要的一個義務一樣的情形受性侵的婦女或者是兒童"},{"start":7352.951,"end":7376.056,"text":"這個部分呢基本上他們的整個身心靈的創痛跟照顧國家在這裡是非常不足的特別是未來如果剛才講到有關有這個期限的問題起訴期限的問題這些內容上面呢基本上會可能會面臨一個夢魘就是說未來還可能會再遇到相關的這樣的一個"},{"start":7377.116,"end":7396.144,"text":"個人或者一個情形那是不是國家在這邊應該要更進一步的去做相關的配套措施跟補救措施那不過這是大院的權責基本上我是尊重大院在這方面只是希望能夠大院在這方面能夠更積極的來做這方面的一個補助"},{"start":7397.202,"end":7422.323,"text":"我剛剛講的其實性侵害的對象其實是兒少我講的是兒少的部分在他們真的長大能夠面對這件事情或是在權力稍微能夠對等的時候他來提出這樣子的一個為自己權益來做一個保障我剛剛的問題您可能還沒有回答就是對於所謂的性侵害的被害人這個所設的不管是刑法也好或者是民法也好這個所設的這個所謂的這個有效的期限是不是構成違憲"},{"start":7425.224,"end":7443.371,"text":"我認為這個可能我想以目前的狀況當下的現實狀況來講可能會有違憲之餘那是否真的有違憲因為基本上司法還是要看到事實證據跟相關法規的部分那法規的規定如何才能夠"},{"start":7444.011,"end":7472.048,"text":"那如果這被害人他主張在刑法跟民法的時效當中這個制度其實他的經驗其實這個部分我們的解釋是違憲的那您認為大法官是不是可以透過所謂的釋憲給予更彈性的一個法律解釋基本上大法官可以在立法者還未進行這個立法漏洞的一個填補過程當中來可以填補這樣子一個漏洞但是最後還是要尊重大院有關立法將大法官所提出的相關的原則"},{"start":7473.189,"end":7490.528,"text":"來透過具體的法律更明確的予以規範我想現行這個求償期限的一個設計其實往往都忽略了這些兒少性侵害的被害人他們的一些特殊性另外就是他們能夠自主求償的一個能力的限制其實反而造成了實質上的侵害這個你同意嗎同意"},{"start":7492.532,"end":7507.242,"text":"接下來也是很多在校園當中我想這個最近大家也都一直不斷的在討論就是老師的權益那關於所謂的校士會議的一些爭議那我想您自己本身也是教授"},{"start":7507.842,"end":7523.229,"text":"那也在校園當中其實也教書那我想呢這個近期在教育的現場出現的一些狀況特別是講到校事會議的一個設置跟運作當然也引起了很多的教師們他們自己本身的一些討論那同時呢也引發了一些爭議"},{"start":7524.409,"end":7544.066,"text":"那我想的這個核心就是在於這個所謂的校事會議它作為一種所謂的調查的一個機制那其實在運作當中往往都會涉入比較主觀的人士的一個判斷甚至逾越了所謂的這個公平公正的一個界線那變成一種處分的工具或者是變成一種處分的"},{"start":7545.047,"end":7567.013,"text":"這樣子的一個手段其實反而侵害到了所謂的教師受憲法保障工作權對於所謂的程序正義落實造成了一個非常重大的一個挑戰喔那我想的這個教師的工作權受到憲法第15條的一個保障喔但是在缺乏正式的行政處分跟程序還有法律依據的時候學校到底有沒有這個權利用所謂的調查會議的名義"},{"start":7569.573,"end":7596.673,"text":"針對所謂的教師來產生這樣子的一個調查啟動的一個方式會對他們的一個工作權益會不會造成一個比較不利的影響報告委員這是有關教育專業的部分基本上呢必須要由教育學者專家來針對這個部分來做探討那至於當然就法律人來講基本上整個做出任何的調查程序等等都必須符合正當法律程序符合比例原則"},{"start":7597.333,"end":7612.242,"text":"透明公開原則等等這些的一個程序的規範所以說在這種情形之下學校的調查程序如果能夠最好能夠是在法律或法律授權的辦法裡面去明定那依據這樣的程序"},{"start":7612.742,"end":7631.06,"text":"其次呢這個調查程序可能必須要有不同的背景這方面專業背景的參與包括教育學者老師本身以及法律專家等等這些才能夠如果進行這樣調查程序才能夠符合所謂的我們的公平的原則"},{"start":7631.738,"end":7650.177,"text":"那就您這個法律人的一個角度你怎麼樣來界定這個內部事務的調查跟對人事權的實質的處分這個範圍來做這樣子的一個分界校事會議到底有沒有辦法可以提供所謂的申辯跟救濟那如果沒有這個是不是已經違反了這個當法律程序的一個原則"},{"start":7651.118,"end":7677.931,"text":"如果沒有法律授權或法律規定的話基本上是不可以做這樣對教師工作權各方面的一個限制的這個部分那這個部分因為本身不是在教育法領域裡面所以我們只能從憲法的一個第八條人身自由的正當法律程序以及相關的行政程序來說明這個部分不過還是要強調一點最重要還是要法律的規定跟法律授權才可以進行這樣的調查程序"},{"start":7678.37,"end":7698.869,"text":"因為教育自治其實是憲法重要的一個原則所謂的這個教育自治但如果校內的制度其實侵犯到了老師基本的權益您認為國家要不要介入那大法官是不是應該可以要求調查程序正義在憲法的層次上有一個比較明顯的一個規範明確的一個規範你怎麼樣來看這個所謂的憲政層次的一個張力"},{"start":7704.159,"end":7730.859,"text":"報告委員我贊成必須要有正如剛才講的必須如果現在目前的規定沒有符合法律保留法律授權以及相關的正當法律程序等等這些的話我想這些都必須要透過立法者那如果立法者沒有做的話基本上大法官如果有到釋憲有這種狀況的話原則上應該在這裡可以做補充性的來填補以保障老師的工作權好"},{"start":7732.079,"end":7754.546,"text":"那最後一個部分我想請教的就是說我知道陳教授這個過去其實參與不少所謂的這個轉型正義的一個座談那您認為這個轉型正義是法律政治還是憲法層次的一個問題那我想大家都知道其實轉型正義其實不是為了要撕裂我們的社會而是要讓我們歷史的傷痕不再重演"},{"start":7754.946,"end":7780.769,"text":"那唯有面對過去的整個不公不義還原真相那另外還有平反受害者我們才能夠真正建立人民對於國家體制的一個信任讓憲政民主的一個制度它有一個穩固的一個根基這是其實轉型正義的最重要的一個目的那我想請教就是陳教授您是否認為這個轉型正義是屬於憲法當中它雖然未明文"},{"start":7781.209,"end":7808.524,"text":"但卻具有所謂的憲法未接的國家義務報告委員我本身留學德國對於納粹時期相關的不正義的事項我們都非常的這樣子深刻的理解所以轉型正義一開始應該是從二次世界大戰開始之後各國所面臨的後來因為東歐的整個共產國家崩潰以後"},{"start":7809.384,"end":7835.584,"text":"所形成的相關的這些內容包括還有南非等等這些這是一個憲法層次或者是法哲學層次的法正義理念的實踐那正如委員剛才所垂詢的基本上這並不是一種報復而是讓未來的人民能夠理解這一段的歷史未來不應該再重蹈覆轍來維護整個自由民主的憲政秩序"},{"start":7836.244,"end":7864.125,"text":"因為在台灣也有白色恐怖也有228事件其實到現在其實受害者的心靈或者是受害者他們自己本身的家屬其實還沒有獲得這樣子的一個平反的機會喔所以其實轉型正義是非常重要那也就是說這個雖然憲法沒有明文的規定我們的轉型正義啦應該可以這麼講但是在國家的憲法上面其實我們應該要有義務去積極的揭露真相補償受害者跟追"},{"start":7864.945,"end":7889.546,"text":"追究加害者的一个义务 这你同意吗是 我赞成那大法官怎么看如果我们透过视线来要求国家对于所谓的历史的不义的行为来负起具体的一个责任请问如果将来您是大法官您怎么看待这样子的一个题目那另外就是请教您怎么看所谓的转促条例的程序跟成效是"},{"start":7890.286,"end":7919.371,"text":"報告委員 基本上剛才盧委員所推詢我已經跟各委員報告了基本上轉型正義是要讓後來的人民能夠了解以前有這樣的一個不正義的狀況造成國家甚至民主的一個慘痛的一個過程所以說大法官在這個部分上基本上從我們的憲法的法理等等為了維護法正義等等這些內容上"},{"start":7919.831,"end":7947.052,"text":"基本上是可以得出這樣的一個結果不過這個問題基本最重要還是最前端的由立法者跟行政權對府衛我記得歷任的政府不管任何政黨執政都針對這件事情有去做過非常多的補償救濟等等這些內容但是我是認為還是不足夠的所以說未來的政府應該繼續朝這個方向繼續的努力除非有不足的地方"},{"start":7947.672,"end":7962.868,"text":"或者是因為人民在這方面有更進一步的受到侵害這種狀況之下有提起憲法訴訟細數的時候大法官當然要對這個維護法正義的理念來做出補充的說明"},{"start":7963.593,"end":7978.986,"text":"當然我們其實也聽到了有一些不同的聲音我假設這個問題只是假設如果未來有聲音要主張廢除所謂的轉促條例您認不認為這可以用違憲審查是可以介入的"},{"start":7981.359,"end":7996,"text":"轉述條例這個部分呢基本上是立法院通過而且現在目前在實施未來如果是不是要看這個條例本身他的立法的目的是否已經完成如果認為違憲審查可以介入嗎"},{"start":7998.142,"end":8015.395,"text":"您認為報告委員因為我沒有完整的去看到這個內容我沒有辦法去看違憲審查的譬如說他侵害到人權或者是他有違反的相關的這個問題我實在是很抱歉我沒有看到具體我也不希望非常直覺跟委員"},{"start":8016.435,"end":8035.451,"text":"回答這樣是對委員的不尊重我們提供給您一個方向如果將來您是大法官的話其實這個有可能會碰得到的一些狀況跟問題那也提供給陳教授做一個參考是好謝謝好謝謝郭委員謝謝貝提名人下一位請柯智恩委員詢問"},{"start":8056.891,"end":8058.997,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請陳備題名人請備題名人答詢"},{"start":8069.33,"end":8088.343,"text":"好 我称你陈教授比较顺口一点以前的大法官是宣法的守护者事件的结果可以说是一言九鼎或是一锤定音因为目前的大法官他的角色其实引起非常多的争议我请陈老师你看一下"},{"start":8089.224,"end":8106.196,"text":"如果你有一天也成为他们其中的一员你认为你有什么差别是赫利基群与众不同让人民重新对司法燃起了一个希望还是你跟这群大法官一样是同声相应同气相求然后更扮演一个政权守护者的一个角色"},{"start":8107.159,"end":8133.976,"text":"報告委員 大法官的職權 任義務是在保障多元的自由民主憲政秩序所以說每一個法官的背景都是多元的包括專長 政治理念 價值理念等等這些而且以剛才跟前面的委員報告過的是每一個大法官基本上不是學者 就是法官或檢察官"},{"start":8134.056,"end":8160.078,"text":"所以你们因为背景不同所以说你们会根据你们自己的背景提出对于很多条文上面的解释我今天要特别来引用这个前总统陈水扁说的他说大法官不能是万能的上帝他不要每件事情都要请大法官出来做公清很多政治的攻防朝野的攻防大法官最好不要再简入不然大法官的威信都会荡然无存也不要利用大法官献予其不义你赞同陈总统的说法吗"},{"start":8160.896,"end":8170.477,"text":"報告委員我可不可以稍微再說明一下可以嗎等一下我們等一下會有機會讓你說明所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你你認為司法要積極還是要消極"},{"start":8172.583,"end":8199.789,"text":"司法作為第三權本身就基於司法的本質是一個被動的而不是一個積極的角色積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分但是呢我相信你從今天早上到現在我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者說法不能夠出一十五不一樣因為你在書面回馴的時候呢不但強調司法的一個消極性然後呢你覺得不能夠過度來積極但是大家都引用你過去的大作你這本書"},{"start":8201.25,"end":8222.706,"text":"從這個憲法法理的理論的司法院大法官事件的問題裡面其中的一篇卻表現我們的司法積極的主義的態度你甚至認為說大法官是憲法的拯救者不應該迴避政治問題而且要針對基本的權爭議的扮演一個救援者的角色所以難怪大家會質疑到底哪一個才是真正的你"},{"start":8223.587,"end":8250.864,"text":"報告委員我沒有講過拯救者救援者這是三個字沒有完全沒有我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律所以說呢從人權保障一直到權限責任都跟政治有關只不過在這個解釋過程他不應該一開始就拒絕而是在解釋過程當中如果遇到有政治力的話政治色彩的話你的解釋就應該到這裡為止例如我已經舉過很多例子像固有疆域的解釋"},{"start":8251.644,"end":8278.452,"text":"但是对不起对不起曾被提名人你既然在你们书当中宪法解释具有政治性是必然之理所以大法官不能一开始就以政治问题而拒绝解释否则就具为限制效果所以你认为在这个政治的层面上面你还是具有很大的一个积极性我只能说如果陈前总统在的话看了你的书的话他应该不会提名你因为你的期待你的写法跟他的期待是有些的落差的"},{"start":8278.912,"end":8294.643,"text":"然后呢你特别我们都还是得从你过去的著作来了解你整个的脉络你的思维然后呢这里面提到了大法官是宪政体制的把关者像你书中写的宪法解释具有正经性要保持中立和客观的确你有这么提到"},{"start":8295.163,"end":8312.157,"text":"但是呢你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀因為我看過你的這個口頭的報告還有你學經歷還有你參與公共行政的一些的成就但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的一個貢獻我們絕對相信你因為這些付出今天你才可以站在這個地方所以呢"},{"start":8312.597,"end":8334.088,"text":"我不觉得这有什么好不好说的吧你看你调列出来真调会的这个里面的诉讼代表还有呢在宪政改革当中呢你是演绎小组而且你跟我们很多很有名的独派大佬要立出要这个证明制宪那这种破例其实对很多学者来说其实是非常少见的而且更提出了这个所谓的中华民国第二共和的宪法"},{"start":8334.668,"end":8351.61,"text":"那既然是作為這個所謂的憲法的一個守護者我們應該對憲法應該百分百的忠誠但是呢這樣子那個擁抱具有台獨傾向的制憲還有所謂第二共和憲法代表一個全新的制憲政的一個秩序我覺得本質上是否定了現有的這個正當性"},{"start":8353.012,"end":8373.869,"text":"是不是報告委員我提倡的是憲政改革要把憲法裡面不妥當不適合經過這七次修憲以後混掉掉你還特別提到的七次修憲已經讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪已經非常的破碎這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法是不是這並不代表說"},{"start":8374.73,"end":8402.071,"text":"我對憲政學者的批判是絕對的因為學者當然是會有所批判既學術自由的保障但是我重點還是在憲政體制五權憲法三權憲法權力分立方面在憲政體制方面對人權的部分你特別提到因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲非常的困難所以我們最好是用只能透過事先的方法才能夠讓這個憲法更具有一個完整性而且這裡面最重要的是你還主張在中國大陸制定之憲法"},{"start":8403.451,"end":8425.403,"text":"當時還沒有台灣人民的同意所以在90年之前台灣不具有民主正當性我覺得這個說法跟我們賴總統在第三講的時候1946年所通過的中華民國的憲法台灣沒有派員參加這是不謀而合的我覺得你跟賴總統的講法是惺惺相異我就不曉得賴總統是參考你的著作還是有諮詢過你的意見因為你們兩個想法是差不多的"},{"start":8425.783,"end":8453.775,"text":"報告我人我是強調在中華民國憲法到台灣以後經過動員刊亂時期臨時條款的凍結以至於不具有民主正當性所以說你現在目前你現在目前為止那我現在簡單的問一句好的你未來要扮演所謂我們憲法的一個守護者所以你認同的是1946年前1946年頒布的憲法還是和賴總統一樣只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法我們只簡單回答這個問題就可以了報告我人"},{"start":8455.156,"end":8472.575,"text":"1990年只修改了十幾個條文而已其餘都是1947年的憲法那當然我是尊重憲法既存在我只針對它修改的方式所以你是同賴總統所說的目前的中華民國憲法應該是從90年之後才來當作憲法所以你不贊同他的這樣的一個說法就對了"},{"start":8476.516,"end":8498.306,"text":"1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法的內容我覺得這是在意旨上面當然我們遵守的是統一不法律但是在這個意旨整個的一個最高位上裡面我們還是要把它澄清清楚而且最主要我們來說你特別提到我會比較贊成的就是你提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡跟所謂的責任政治"},{"start":8498.686,"end":8516.008,"text":"为什么我问这个问题我们现在的五权有四权是被同一个政党所掌握的所以有没有办法达到所谓的权力制衡这东西是很重要的接下来我就要就教育为什么我问这个问题因为我们从民国37年开始历任32任的行政院长当然其中有三任是代理的"},{"start":8516.348,"end":8541.412,"text":"他共提出了19次的一個復議但是呢卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次的一個復議而且復議被立法院否決之後呢他不僅沒有擔起這個責任政治的部分他還特別還要提出5次的這個事件你認為他有符合責任政治的這樣的一個原則嗎報告委員這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的"},{"start":8542.342,"end":8569.537,"text":"这就是你刚刚所提到的在这个部分来说其实你书中写的跟你现在所回应的对我来说是有一点落差所以我们必须要把它澄清清楚所以我们就用一些比较具体的范例来特别提到的目前来说的话我们就行政院目前说对于禁法补偿刚有很多人问你还有警察人员的人事条例再提视线而且上礼拜我们通过的普罚现金一万块钱也考虑要来提出视线那我想请问陈教授"},{"start":8570.017,"end":8596.217,"text":"立法院透過法律案來增加支出你覺得有違反憲法第70條這上面的規定嗎報告委員剛才已經跟幾位委員垂詢的時候回答基本上立法院認為這是法律案行政院認為這涉及到預算的分別所以有爭議爭議的時候呢大法官在520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的"},{"start":8596.778,"end":8613.318,"text":"但是我还是要这个正义的部分里面我还是要把它理定清楚因为在7月9号司法院被提名人蔡秋明这个他就特别两座的表明立法院所提的包括禁法补偿包括过去的老农津贴他基本上认为是没有违宪的那你认为呢"},{"start":8613.939,"end":8639.509,"text":"基本上如果是法律案的話就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的是在法律案的層面上說就像大家在法律案跟預算案大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中我們今天為什麼要特別提出來因為呢普發現金我們只問一個特別條例行政院好像傾向於不釋憲我想他目前為止也不敢去釋憲他這次是要比照禁法補償條例裡面直接不編列預算"},{"start":8640.931,"end":8645.267,"text":"請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解"},{"start":8646.889,"end":8668.48,"text":"520號解釋有提出依據憲法正修條第3條第二項模式但是呢我覺得你看這就是我們引用的條文不一樣這次比禁法補償更嚴重的依照釋字第463號的一個解釋特別預算如果不合訂就要退回去因為如果市政院不按照立法院通過特別條例來編列預算的話這才是一個違憲的部分"},{"start":8671.041,"end":8687.973,"text":"你看看463的解釋裡面他是這樣的說法的所以我們引用的條文是這一塊463的解釋是針對特別預算的部分現在的問題是立法院認為是法律案但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院的編列預算的權限"},{"start":8688.933,"end":8714.672,"text":"根据预算法第九十一条的规定也不是这样选法但是我还利用这个机会还是要特别提出来上周我们此次提到的特别预算的条例通过预算到底是如何来编列但还要由大院来做一个解释但我要是特别提醒了本来立法院就有这个立法主动行程权我们在制定特别条例的时候呢会另加这个条文然后呢这本就是我们所固定的条文"},{"start":8714.952,"end":8730.186,"text":"这固定的一个权限我要特别提醒来在过去90年的时候呢我们通过基隆河流域的特别预算那时候是由料水管委员所提出来柯建民总召当初还是联署人95年通过的石门水库的还有这个特别预算"},{"start":8730.566,"end":8756.93,"text":"是由林正峰委员提出来而且呢都是跟我们现在一样都要依照委员的提案通过特别条例之后再编略预算92年民进党党团那时候有我们的科建民族在这个所谓的严重这个我们的source的时候我们防治基金500亿我们所做的99年那时候的提案人是赖清德我们要为增稳水库制造的特别条例现在所讲的跟过去所讲的都是一样"},{"start":8757.35,"end":8772.201,"text":"都完全是我們提出的特別條例之後委請行政院再編列預算請問這次為什麼我們所提出來你就認為是可能是有違憲之嫌過去所提出來完全過去程序都是一樣的報告委員我沒有說違憲之嫌因為"},{"start":8773.061,"end":8801.898,"text":"依據520號解釋基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解釋那是政治的問題大法官不處理這個政治問題那另外呢基本上所謂的行政現在我在書上也表示很清楚不管內閣治國總統制現在已經沒有所謂行政立法的這個制衡的問題都是政黨政治所以政黨政治之下如果政黨能夠在憲政的體制之下協商完成的話"},{"start":8802.358,"end":8828.089,"text":"那當然就不會有爭議的問題所以你認為我們所提出來目前來說上次禮拜所提出來的這個所謂的普發現金這個部分以目前你的理解來說你認為跟過去我所條例了這麼多過去的特別預算條例完之後特別預算應該是符合一致的嗎如果之前可以的話這次應該也是可以嗎如果行政院再提出所謂的事件的話你應該認為這個是完全完全違反我們463號的一個解釋嗎"},{"start":8829.77,"end":8858.938,"text":"因為是完全一樣的 時光背景不一樣但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊你必須要把這個程序把它搞清楚啊是 報告委員基本上如果 我剛才已經提到現在是一個政黨政治各個政黨如果同意的情形之下就不會有520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了那現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的因為我沒有去細讀之前的那些預算案的部分一樣的"},{"start":8859.358,"end":8876.826,"text":"完全是一样的你应该去细读因为我们今天其实最需要的就是根据几个案例来提出你对于这个很多部分的解释而且最重要是我们现在卓院长好像是事件已经上了瘾一样只要他提出他不喜欢的他就提事件目前像我们总预算案我们的才华法等等"},{"start":8877.526,"end":8893.283,"text":"而且呢他认为我才特别问你而且你特别提到的你以前提过的行政机关如果提出提出自己的版本这是宪政惯例那以才化法来说的话行政院并没有提出自己的版本啊你认为他是不是违反了我们的这个宪政惯例"},{"start":8894.622,"end":8900.265,"text":"我現在只是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本這本就是憲政慣例而行政院這次沒有我只問你是不是違反我們過去的行政慣例"},{"start":8917.15,"end":8933.315,"text":"有可能這個憲政慣例憲政慣例基本上是如果有中斷的話那當然就有可能這個憲政慣例可能沒有憲政慣例的沒有拘束力跟你過去的說法是不一樣本來就要是提出來然後沒但這次就是沒提你就大膽的講我覺得"},{"start":8934.955,"end":8935.856,"text":"因為法律學者是很嚴謹的"},{"start":8951.525,"end":8974.537,"text":"因為單純幾個舉句話我們要去做非常嚴謹的回答恐怕會有遲疑並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等那我就再跟你講一下你過去的一個前輩我們在大法官釋字第三九一號當中那時候大法官蘇俊雄跟劉鐵正他在不同意書裡面就提到"},{"start":8975.037,"end":8987.624,"text":"目前多事的解釋文並沒有判斷所謂違反責任政治跟權力分裂的一個標準所以說呢你如果單純只用權限的分裂來切割提案權跟所謂的議決權的話這完全會限縮我們立法院調整運算的內容"},{"start":8990.586,"end":9010.792,"text":"所以今天为什么有这么多预算出来为什么今天大家对于所提出的这个大法官的人选我们要非常的严格因为当我们这么喜欢事先的运把什么都放到你那边去之后你如果完全是根据执政党的意志然后来做出你再当一个诠释的话对我们所出台特别是目前在野党说是非常不公平的"},{"start":9011.152,"end":9028.435,"text":"所以我们为什么举出这么多的条例包括我刚刚所提出这么多在特别条例里面的这些过去的历史还包括现在我所告诉你的过去的大法官里面在第391号当中他就有出错错的这样的一个诠释你认为你过去的前辈这样的说法你赞同吗"},{"start":9029.396,"end":9050.827,"text":"報告委員我尊重剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹的回答但是有一個問題我可以很直率的跟委員報告我絕對會以超人的地位以我之前一直在貴黨團裡面所提到的很多的問題我都一直認為這是我學者的見解都提供給貴黨團的書面"},{"start":9052.828,"end":9072.848,"text":"但是陈教授学者的一个见解大家说是透过你过去的著作来了解你所以学者的见解跟你今天站在那边当作是一个被提名人我觉得某种程度的脉络是要一致的就诚如你过去一直不断强调你在当考试委员的时候你是超然立场我还是再次的强调考试委员所处理的性质跟我们大法官是不一样"},{"start":9073.208,"end":9100.209,"text":"特别是像此时此刻我们在目前来说没有一次有那么多的院长提出这么多政治性的所谓的视线这就是我为什么对你过去的背景跟你现在的回答我们要严格的来做一个厘清这才是个最主要的一个目的我最后一个问题时间的关系你特别要要特别提到了啊所以当你沿用了不同的一个法条的时候不断的当民进党的委员不断的在这个所谓的特别预算里面不断的提出宪法第70条的时候"},{"start":9100.569,"end":9119.963,"text":"我們就不斷的提出了憲法第63條還有包括等等這些都要透過大法官來幫我們做不同的一個釐清你之前也特別提到了美國總統叫國會議長下台就是一個憲政災難這是您過去所提到的在我們憲法的運作上面也是具有總統議會的特徵賴總統宣講的時候表示他要透過"},{"start":9126.007,"end":9147.836,"text":"選舉打掉了雜質然後在民進黨的代表大會當中他主張就是要公民一起來發動大罷免意義上好像就是你要透過主張改變立法院席次的一個結構來罷免我們的立法院院長那你認為這跟你過去所說的美國總統叫國會議長下台是憲政災難這不覺得也是整個脈絡上也完全是不斷的一個相近的嗎"},{"start":9148.885,"end":9168.49,"text":"如果以總統身份的確是不適宜的但是如果個人的話他有言人自由他今天就是總統啊他今天賴清德就是個總統他怎麼會是個人呢他今天所講的每一句話就代表總統的角度來做一個發言我覺得透過這樣一個宣講然後呢藉由這樣的部分來改變國會的結構然後來換掉我們的立法院長我個人認為這個就是憲政災難"},{"start":9170.831,"end":9178.791,"text":"这就是你过去所主张的是一样但是你没有觉得我们现在整个的台湾社会慢慢往这个方面来做一个趋近这是我们比较担心的"},{"start":9179.841,"end":9205.39,"text":"我還是維持我與一貫的學者之前所說的立法你現在又變成學者了哇塞我真的常常在你的學者跟這個被提名之間的一個角色我常常會覺得有點confused當你提到這個言論自由當你提到人權的時候你認為這是當你提到你過去的時候是一個比較積極對於這個所謂的憲法應要站在一個第一線上對於政治問題裡面你不能夠迴避可是當現在你所寫的這些所謂的書面跟你回應我的問題的時候"},{"start":9206.57,"end":9228.707,"text":"你又變成是比較認為應該是退居不要變成一個公親是一個比較消極的角色所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的這個陳昭彼我認為釋憲憲法就是有政治的素材不能迴避否則就不需要釋憲但是在釋憲過程當中遇到政治力政治力的時候就應該要指出這個界限所在"},{"start":9229.267,"end":9252.738,"text":"有办法做到吗我觉得这就是我们最最非常非常质疑的因为跟过去那个背景虽然你不断的提出来你这是考试委员我还是强调考试委员跟大法官所强调的所面对的事务是完完全全不一样大法官目前为止他应该是很超然的过去我们也从来没有跟大法官有这么多的这样子的一个面对面的这样一个一个接触或者是透过宪法法庭里面来做出很多的政治攻防"},{"start":9253.058,"end":9272.904,"text":"可是現在到底是誰讓他變成把你們每一個人都要被問到都要被質疑到底你的政治立場上面有沒有這樣的不斷的一個偏頗這個就是一個我們目前正在這個地方大家對於您過去跟現在一定要搞清楚到底哪一個才是代表你的這樣的一個部分我一定做到在解釋過程當中好 謝謝柯委員 謝謝被提名人下一位請陳培宇委員詢問"},{"start":9294.056,"end":9296.859,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請貝提琴陳教授 謝謝請貝提琴人答詢"},{"start":9307.856,"end":9323.329,"text":"陳教授早安我還是直接稱呼您陳教授我想今天在一連串的跟您的對話我今天是最後一個根據您過往的經驗我們看到您還有環境法的專長所以等一下我們會討論這個部分但是我今天想要先從憲政的議題開始談起來"},{"start":9325.892,"end":9351.128,"text":"我們在世字499號裡面有提到一個非常重要的事情就是所謂的修憲界限那目前我自己個人認為在之前的這個公聽會上我也提出現在的立法院似乎變成台灣整個憲政危機的源頭整個亂源我認為是在立法院怎麼說過去這一整年當中在整個立法院不管是國會擴權法案或者是相關毀憲亂政的提案"},{"start":9355.791,"end":9371.896,"text":"預算的提案其實我認為實質上都已經干擾到行政院的行政同時他也讓整個憲政體制遭受到非常大的迫害那當然有後續的釋憲案或者是相關的復驗都表現出每一個院當中各自所能夠"},{"start":9373.056,"end":9389.743,"text":"所能夠有的主張因此我認為如果回過頭來看這一整年來的立法院也就是國會代表全國人民意見這個立法院我認為是導致於整個國家出現憲政危機的亂源那當然這是我的見解我並沒有要您在這裡表示意見"},{"start":9390.384,"end":9403.363,"text":"那我之所以提出這個見解是想要跟您討論我們提到我剛提到所謂修憲界憲論這件事情也就是說本質上重要性的條文不得任意修改我想這是很重要的主張對嗎"},{"start":9404.628,"end":9424.411,"text":"是的好那如果我們一般人都有這樣的嘗試更何況是立法委員所以我想要回過頭來請教關於在4至499號解釋當中有提到所謂權利分立還有制衡的原則這件事情也非常重要所以第一個問題想要請教您的看法第一個假設假設因為"},{"start":9424.972,"end":9448.841,"text":"目前呢有在野黨團他們提出要成立所謂的修憲委員會修憲委員會的主張他們目前我說的是到目前為止他們提出的是要廢止監察院台灣過去是一個五權分立的國家我不知道如果我們用4-499號來看這件事情也就是他打算廢止監察院難道台灣從此以後要變成一個四權分立的國家或者是變成所謂3.5權"},{"start":9450.182,"end":9465.835,"text":"因為我們就不知道後續要怎麼處理這原本五權分立突然如果把監察院廢掉變四權或是三點五權你怎麼看這件事情報告委員我的學者到目前一貫的見解是一致的權力制衡權力分立並沒有說是三權"},{"start":9466.556,"end":9485.672,"text":"或武權不管從英文或者是從中文來講都可以但是一個很堅持的我在書上也一直強調了有多少民意基礎就要擁有多少憲法上的權力擁有多少憲法上的權力就要負起多大的責任這三個是一個等邊三角形"},{"start":9486.712,"end":9510.126,"text":"至於怎麼設計那就是修憲機關的權限基本上我是尊重修憲機關只要符合這樣的一個基本原則任何三權五權基本上並不是一種障礙另外是我們台灣特別有所謂用一個權用一個願來說明事實上在西方國家也並沒有所謂的完全所謂的行政權"},{"start":9510.846,"end":9538.167,"text":"行政權外還是有很多的獨立機關也就像我們說要在行政院下設所謂公平會或者國家通訊傳播委員會這種獨立機關因為變成一個院下面有一個獨立機關在西方國家有很多並不是一個院內閣或者另外設立一個獨立機關都是有可能的所以我們可能在拘束憲法上面就是院這個字非一個院所有都必須在歸屬一個院下面的這個憲政機關才能夠設立"},{"start":9540.228,"end":9562.001,"text":"那這個設立又有可能會是獨立機關可能跟這個院新政權有所本質不符所以之前也有發生過所謂國家通訊傳播委員會的這個組成釋憲的問題等等這些我想這些就是很多前面的很多委員的詮詢我本來要講都沒有時間講就是因為整個的憲政體制"},{"start":9563.462,"end":9583.281,"text":"原本憲法1947年通過那部憲法是仿照威馬憲法除了他民主中立性不夠足夠來捍衛這個自由民主憲政秩序以外其他的設計基本上我是蠻尊重張君邁先生在這一方面的一個設計但是因為七次修憲除了取得民主正當性也就是說"},{"start":9584.002,"end":9604.202,"text":"因為這部憲法後來因為動員勘亂時期零食條款以後就失去了他的民主正當性後來回復了有了民主正當性以後呢基本上在這個過程當中七次修憲是枝枝節節的修憲這個是造成我們今天今天會造成這樣的混亂我認為是制度的問題而不是人的問題"},{"start":9606.183,"end":9626.831,"text":"所以您剛剛說的這些混亂其實也是我本來後續要問你不過你都已經說了因為除了這個混亂其實我們難以解決而且很難有全民的共識之外其實還有另外一些議題也就是沒有涉及到修憲的部分因為我們我剛剛說的499是處理修憲的部分但沒有涉及修憲的部分其實還是有權利分立的問題例如說"},{"start":9627.691,"end":9643.639,"text":"第一個修訂法律癱瘓憲政機關的運作也就是在立法院這一屆提出的限訴法我不知道你有沒有關心相關的細節跟進度第二個刪除大量預算導致於憲政機關難以運作例如說像從去年的年底"},{"start":9644.039,"end":9670.147,"text":"行政院的中辦或者是監察院的業務費在相關預算案當中被大量的煽動甚至煽到一塊甚至還有機關被煽到負的好這個部分再來第三個是修訂法案的部分大幅擴張自身的權利我在指的是立法院某一些立法委員的同仁們做的事情也就是我剛講這三個情況他不涉及修憲但是在權利分立上他確實的影響各自運作的獨立性甚至癱瘓"},{"start":9671.347,"end":9690.379,"text":"相關的可能性我想就這個部分也請教您的意見這些狀況基本上都是行政跟立法兩者之間對很多意見的不同所形成的那事實上呢基本上這應該不是所謂的這個憲法的這個法律層次的問題"},{"start":9691.139,"end":9717.691,"text":"而是屬於政治層次的問題所以剛才一直我提到的就是剛才委員吹詢一直在提到大法官在520號解釋裡面也一直認為如果涉及到兩院之間的政治意見不同的話應該透過憲法增修條文第三條第二項模式去做處理那雙方如果能夠達到一定的共識或者透過一定的解決的話那當然就沒有問題"},{"start":9718.331,"end":9740.212,"text":"那基本上這個我們在大法官基本上是不去碰觸這個問題所以說520號只提供這樣子的一個憲法的一個規定而已所以在這裡我跟委員報告基本上我還是基本上遵守大法官520號這樣子的一個見解來由行政跟立法兩者去做相關的政治解決問題的"},{"start":9740.993,"end":9752.608,"text":"理想上當然我也很希望達到剛剛陳老師您所說的就行政跟立法如果有好的協商機制協調機制當然我們就不希望引起所謂的信證危機甚至要走到訴訟釋憲這條路不過我想因為現在情況確實不是這樣"},{"start":9756.152,"end":9772.218,"text":"不過我剛剛很開心聽到你的見解是這樣但是我認為在很多政治上的議題他最後不得不走入憲法法庭的時候其實還是要仰賴大法官您的見解貝提銘這邊那另外我想要提到關於權力分立的部分我剛剛已經講完可是另外一個部分我想要聚焦在司法權"},{"start":9772.998,"end":9793.071,"text":"和立法權的互動上因為身為大法官的被提名人假設未來您真的擔任大法官我相信會不斷的碰上這個議題尤其是在這個情況後續的延續上第一個我想要問有關於憲法訴訟法的爭議當中其實有一個爭議點又是關於國會自律"},{"start":9794.011,"end":9816.605,"text":"還有國會自治的部分自治當然很重要但自律更重要如果我們按照釋字342號的解釋見解如果立法過程當中明顯存在重大瑕疵大法官得宣告其無效我不知道就您的見解來說所謂明顯重大瑕疵的構成要件可能會有哪些"},{"start":9817.974,"end":9844.816,"text":"明顯重大瑕疵是從行政法理論裡面有關就如同很多學者在用一個最簡單的解釋就是如同刻在額頭上這麼明顯的一個痕跡就是違憲的那在585號或者是這次憲判9號大法官基本上都認為這是一個國會自律並沒有重大明顯瑕疵那基本上我是尊重的"},{"start":9845.794,"end":9872.392,"text":"好 這個部分我們剛剛說的意見也就是你說尊重但是所謂明顯重大瑕疵如果有不同大法官之間的見解那當然我們沒有辦法在這邊細緻的討論完不過我剛剛認為所謂明顯重大瑕疵回到立法院的自律跟自治這件事情因為立法院是要對全國人民交代的那當然它可能有政治部分的見解但對人民交代完成一個良善的立法過程我認為還是相對重要的"},{"start":9872.992,"end":9892.089,"text":"那除了我剛剛說立法院自律跟自治的部分接下來我想要問過去不論是在行政在司法在監察其實都面臨立法權想要透過立法或是透過預算的方法來影響機關的正常運作我再次想要跟您請教這個問題"},{"start":9893.01,"end":9920.183,"text":"你認為相關機關應該要如何處理來避免自己被立法權癱瘓例如說我知道行政院在過去這一年當中面對立法院很多荒謬的提案行政院進行了復議跟釋憲這都是合法的可以做的事情對嗎接下來監察院在預算的部分他們也提案釋憲這可能你之後還沒有遇到但是司法院的部分目前遇到的狀況是人數不足而沒有辦法受理案件"},{"start":9920.703,"end":9946.323,"text":"目前只能免為其難受理限訴法的釋憲案那如果當初司法院沒有受理司法院大法官會不會持續被癱瘓也就是說您剛剛說的相關的意見您都尊重相關的協調如果可以進行當然是最好可是實質上在過去一整年當中我們在立法院影響到的狀況已經是我剛剛舉的這些例子了那我這邊是不是可以請您表達一下您的意見跟看法"},{"start":9947.262,"end":9962.81,"text":"報告委員,事實上剛才很多委員追尋表達很多但是最後一句話沒想再表達的就是都沒有機會讓我表達,感謝委員讓我有這個機會因為限訴法大法官已經受理了,系屬在憲法法庭"},{"start":9964.015,"end":9984.427,"text":"這是我想對於一個我們法律人來講我們不應該針對已經細數的案件特別作為被提名人來做任何表達個人意見的看法這個是剛才好幾位委員一直問我一直沒有機會回答這件事情所以要請委員見諒這是我們法律人比較嚴謹的做法"},{"start":9984.727,"end":9997.164,"text":"就已經細數了如果現在還沒有細數可能可以表達個人意見或學術立場但是已經細數了這個法官不予我們必須要去遵守特別作為大法官的被提名人耿偉銓報告"},{"start":9998.649,"end":10015.635,"text":"好但是剛監察院的部分或司法院的那個行政院部分沒有關係我想您沒有辦法方便在這裡表達您個人的見解如同你剛說但是我認為這是後續假設您真的擔任大法官之後這確實會是您很重要的燙手山芋但我想我們在這裡還是要表達我們的關切因為"},{"start":10016.095,"end":10032.847,"text":"整個立法院的亂象已經持續一年多我認為這件事情非常干擾立法院正常運作也非常干擾到國人對於立法院的觀感甚至也干擾到所有行政機關對於人民相關的很多措施跟政策的推廣那另外一個最後想要問您就是"},{"start":10033.707,"end":10062.286,"text":"無論過去大法官解釋的時代或者是現在的憲法法庭通常在大法官做成解釋之後有時候會直接宣告說在一定時間之後相關的律法就會失效給立法者做立法形成的空間有時候是直接宣告無效或者是直接認定應該要如何做如何做那我想相關案例我有寫在這邊我不知道您如何看待這其中的差異是不是會有所謂大法官造法的情況發生"},{"start":10064.188,"end":10081.126,"text":"報告委員大法官只能補充憲法之不足或立法的不作為但是最終如果涉及到法律的立法方面還是要尊重立法院的立法形成空間希望能夠依照大法官的意旨來做法律的制定"},{"start":10081.727,"end":10098.379,"text":"那有關立即失效跟有一定時間的基本上是考慮到法的安定性的問題也就是說如果說馬上立即失效使所有的法秩序完全沒有辦法遵照有一個依據的法律來作為的話"},{"start":10098.939,"end":10127.9,"text":"那恐怕會影響到整個法制序的安定所以基本上會有一定時間的控制但一定時間的控制會有一個問題就是說那是不是代表在這段時間這個已經被宣告違憲的法律還繼續有效呢所以後來大法官也補充做了解釋所有有關機關必須依大法官解釋的意旨來做出相關的一個判決也好或者相關的行政處分也好基本上是這樣子的一個模式"},{"start":10128.86,"end":10147.867,"text":"來形成所謂的定期失效或者立即失效等等這些內容那當然還有其他的相關細節技術問題在這裡就不再跟再去做進一步的說明因為時間有限了不過為什麼我要特別問這一段呢因為確實在現在的政治氛圍或是公民的氛圍當中"},{"start":10149.127,"end":10168.241,"text":"確實大家會對大法官做出的相關決議有非常非常多的解讀跟討論但是您剛剛把相關的立場說得非常清楚我想後續再遇到也許有一些政治爭議上的題目的時候大家就可以回過頭來參考陳教授您今天的發言到底是當下立即失效的意義比較好"},{"start":10168.841,"end":10182.935,"text":"還是有相關的立法的實現我想還是要回到您剛剛說的法學專業的部分還有就是所謂的法案定性的部分好 接下來要談另外一個也是最近大家在看大法官會討論到大法官跟民意之間的關係"},{"start":10183.976,"end":10210.97,"text":"我想這個相關的議題你應該都非常清楚例如說大法官在討論案件的時候他當然會有個人的見解還有個人的法理見解做成判斷做成論斷這個我們當然都絕對尊重可是過去就會有人認為大法官沒有民意基礎或者是有人會說大法官在審理案件的時候沒有考量民意我想就您自己怎麼看大法官專業法理跟民意之間的關係還有"},{"start":10212.992,"end":10217.56,"text":"會不會作為您未來在面對相關議案的時候的參考項目之一"},{"start":10219.399,"end":10246.5,"text":"報告委員基本上大法官所要堅持的是憲法的價值體系跟價值內容但是也不能不考慮我們憲法第二條國民主權原則特別是我們看到國民法官法規定裡面就是依據因為國民主權原則所以要顧及到國民的法律情感及價值內容來形成這樣的一個法律制度所以在兩者兼顧之下"},{"start":10246.94,"end":10261.817,"text":"去做出對憲法秩序最好的一個決定剛才有很多委員垂詢我一直沒有辦法講說是說我一直堅持我以前的見解現在難道不堅持嗎不是的我們學者的見解可以海闊天空寄予學術自由"},{"start":10262.378,"end":10287.304,"text":"但是作為大法官的見解必須要堅持維護憲政秩序的價值理念為整個憲政秩序最好的選擇來做出決定所以我剛才要表達的是這個但是很多委員都沒有讓我表達這一塊所以我這邊還再強調一遍大法官雖然有自己的相關的學術見解跟內容等等這些但是如果作為大法官以後"},{"start":10287.884,"end":10301.1,"text":"一定要為整個憲政秩序最好的一個方向來指出來做說明而不是背離本身的一個學術的良知或價值我想這是必須在這邊補充跟委員報告的"},{"start":10301.638,"end":10330.084,"text":"所以也就是適當的理解跟傾聽民意也可以作為您後續相關做成決定的參考項目之一對嗎 您的意思是這樣一定是這樣因為我剛才要報告但是委員沒有機會讓我報告在德國的法院判決裡面在判決的前頭一定是以德意志國民之名做成這樣一個判決要兼顧兩者那兼顧怎麼兼顧兩者呢正如剛才委員垂詢的"},{"start":10331.364,"end":10356.87,"text":"所謂499號的憲法核心的價值理念這是必須兼顧第二個就是國民主權的理念這兩者如何兼顧德國基本法雖然不是用499是以德國基本法79條第三項來說明這個憲法核心的這個部分以及在判決的時候用國民主權讓兩者能夠去橫平來做出對憲法最佳的一個選擇的判斷"},{"start":10358.61,"end":10378.858,"text":"你一定很納悶為什麼我要一直問你這件事情因為即將在8月23號我們會有一個公投其實之前我在公聽會的時候我就提過我也不斷在跟在野黨協商的時候提醒在野黨說公投結果的法律未接跟大法官的解釋或憲法法庭的判決未接是不一樣的好"},{"start":10379.358,"end":10404.943,"text":"如果回到這個前提上我也想要請教您之後我們所會遇到的公民投票的結果如果跟大法官的解釋或憲法法庭的判決未接當然是不一樣的可是如果兩者發生見解衝突的時候該怎麼處理之前其實就有類似的事情就是釋字748號跟2018年的公投我想這個案例您是清楚的可是未來還會有更多的公投我不知道您怎麼看"},{"start":10405.899,"end":10434.746,"text":"報告委員大法官的解釋或者判決基本上是具有憲法拘束的效力所以基本上我們公投法也有相關的要件譬如說涉及到憲法的規定等等是不能夠公投的這個完全要視個案來決定是否有涉及憲法的規定或者涉及到憲法效力的問題如果有的話基本上這個公投的這個做成基本上是有比較有大的意義的"},{"start":10435.046,"end":10448.597,"text":"那不過至於怎麼樣去刑訴這個部分還是立法者本身對公投法的相關的一個刑訴當然立法者在刑訴過程當中一定要遵守憲法的一個明文的規定以及憲法價值秩序的一個決定"},{"start":10450.762,"end":10469.234,"text":"好我只剩一分鐘不過剛剛您所說的確實在過去相關案例跟未來就發生的公投我們確實要各案各案來看可是當然如果公投是有立法者所提起的那回到立法者必須要遵守立法的相關的秩序來看可能在立法院過去這一年當中已經失衡了"},{"start":10469.594,"end":10484.745,"text":"但是如果未來公投提案是由公民朋友公民團體所發起的那他們所造成的公投投票結果我再次強調如果跟大法官的解釋或憲法法庭的判決有差異的時候我相信未來也會是您的燙手山芋之一對嗎"},{"start":10485.786,"end":10512.24,"text":"是的好 那我只剩20秒不過我就沒辦法再問環境法的不過我想今天就這些討論希望後續我們在進行同意權投票的時候我們可以一切順利不過今天很謝謝您在很多法律上的見解包含權力分立還有修憲的部分修憲界限的部分因為我們當然要面臨政治的困境但我認為所有政治的困境都還是要扣回整體社會發展對於台灣民主社會更好的"},{"start":10514.38,"end":10542.279,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會對大法官被提名人陳慈揚詢答部分到此為止謝謝被提名人列席答詢上午會議進行到此為止下午2點30分繼續進行對大法官被提名人詹振榮之詢問現在休息"},{"start":12109.929,"end":12110.981,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":12974.659,"end":12975.222,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":14624.387,"end":14625.012,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":15492.325,"end":15492.405,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17084.404,"end":17084.566,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":18302.048,"end":18312.774,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":19605.728,"end":19606.425,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":21607.182,"end":21620.066,"text":"報告全院委員會現在繼續開會進行審查大法官被提名人詹振榮之資格及是否事任相關事項現在請被提名人詹振榮先生說明時間為10分鐘"},{"start":21634.355,"end":21654.462,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家午安我是大法官被提名人詹正榮現職為國立政治大學法學院特聘教授很榮幸能夠在此接受大院大法官人事同意權行使的審查"},{"start":21655.407,"end":21682.576,"text":"以下我僅就我個人的學習歷程專業能力憲法信念以及自我期許等各方面簡要進行說明民國七十六年我進入動物大學法學院就讀有幸正好歷經台灣憲政史上非常重要的轉捩點解除戒嚴野百合學運"},{"start":21684.037,"end":21701.372,"text":"終止動員勘亂時期臨時條款也正因為如此我在大學時期便開始對人權保障及憲政機關運作等議題產生濃厚的探索興趣與研究動機"},{"start":21702.898,"end":21730.507,"text":"我更在畢業之前在前大法官陳新明教授指導之下執行國科會大專生專體研究計畫議題的題目為德國國會與軍隊之間的關係因為這樣的一個初探學術研究的傲堂也確立了我日後決定進行學術研究作為終身質押規劃的目標"},{"start":21733.884,"end":21758.714,"text":"畢業以後我進入德國科隆大學法學院修讀碩士及博士學程碩士論文是以地方自治的憲法保障為題而博士論文則是以當時全球一波的民營化議題為主探討國家對於電信網路應有的管制議題"},{"start":21760.672,"end":21784.85,"text":"幸運地在90年7月取得博士學位回國後我先後任教於國立高雄大學政治法律學系及現在服務的單位政治大學法律學院主要教授的科目都是聚焦在憲法行政法等基礎跟進階的課程"},{"start":21787.045,"end":21813.925,"text":"在研究的領域部分我的主要議題聚焦在民營化法、公私協力法及公經濟法並著有多本專論由於研究的議題涉及到國家跟社會在憲法上所扮演角色的典範變權因此我特別關注人民的工作權"},{"start":21815.574,"end":21833.326,"text":"營業自由、競爭自由、財產權還有商業性的言論自由等等經濟基本權的保障除此之外地方自治、中央與地方權限之劃分也是我長年來研究的主題"},{"start":21835.287,"end":21862.905,"text":"除了教學跟研究之外我也常年致力於社會參與我尤其熱衷於公務人員及行政法院法官的在職進修課程透過這樣的一個與實務第一線執行公權力的人員的對話讓我能夠深切的了解到國家公權力運作的實際情況"},{"start":21864.511,"end":21890.376,"text":"也使得我的專業知識不僅僅只限於理論也能夠貼近我們目前食物的運作而呈現一個接地氣的從行政法到憲法的垂直整合的特質在市縣食物的參與上面或許因為之前的研究成果"},{"start":21891.784,"end":21920.84,"text":"所以我多次的被大法官指定為專家鑑定人例如說在釋字第794號煙傷贊助廣告案在111憲判6號及萊豬案111憲判第9號公職人員公務人員年終考積零等免職案還有"},{"start":21922.099,"end":21950.753,"text":"後來撤回訴訟提起的性自主前科之人不得終身擔任計程車駕駛的釋憲案其中的部分見解也有幸被大法官所採納成為判決見解的支撐依據大法官所面對的憲法爭議往往具有高度的爭執性"},{"start":21952.284,"end":21972.574,"text":"因此我認為一位事格的人選除了專業知識要夠豐碩之外最主要要有憲政核心價值的信念以及獨立行使職權的性格就憲政核心價值而言"},{"start":21973.703,"end":22002.582,"text":"人性尊嚴的保障是一個普世價值也是我向來認為從事法學研究必須要秉持的不容退讓的一個核心理念人權保障是如此即便21世紀人權種類的擴張國家干預人民基本權手段的更新例如說導入AI"},{"start":22004.077,"end":22030.906,"text":"這個都無損於變中的不變就是以人性尊嚴 保障作為主要的憲法理念因此在全憲劃分 權力分立的部分表象看起來似乎是憲法機關彼此之間的一個政治的交鋒但"},{"start":22031.9,"end":22054.013,"text":"其實背後的實質精神也是在於避免國家某一個憲政機關過度的擴權與濫權造成人權的不可回復性的侵害最後我在這裡跟各位來報告"},{"start":22055.427,"end":22079.649,"text":"若有幸擔任大法官我對於自己的一個執行職權的期許大法官作為憲法的維護者其中在解釋憲法時不免的必須要透過憲政價值的詮釋而擁有解釋的空間"},{"start":22081.618,"end":22106.428,"text":"在上個禮拜諸多場次的審查會中委員非常關心的一個議題是憲法理念跟民意兩者之間如何去做一個調適我個人認為憲法解釋固然是以憲法規範及法理作為主要的支撐依據"},{"start":22107.967,"end":22136.934,"text":"但是主流民意他也在一定程度上反映當前國人的憲法意識及對於人權的正義觀在利益衡量時大法官我也期許自己從事大法官職務能夠兼顧各方的多元價值做一個不偏移的判決決定"},{"start":22138.823,"end":22166.59,"text":"再來 大法官的職權具有憲法議題的最後話語權公權力屬性甚強 甚至具有對勢效力在這樣的情況之下 我也期許自己的未來行使職權能夠穩健 不躁進地驅動台灣憲政秩序的穩定發展"},{"start":22167.608,"end":22193.573,"text":"避免因為自己職權的行使反而引發社會更大的紛爭憲政秩序更大的動亂以上 敬請各位指教跟批評 謝謝好 謝謝被提名人的說明現在進行委員的詢問首先請陳委員召諸詢問"},{"start":22204.419,"end":22207.223,"text":"謝謝主席 有請備體名人曾教授請備體名人答詢委員好"},{"start":22217.95,"end":22244.108,"text":"背題裡面詹教授您好我想先請你看兩張圖這兩張圖都是來自內政部跟主計總處的官方數據左邊這張圖告訴我們從2020年開始台灣就進入人口的負成長也就是說出生的人數遠低於死亡的人數那右邊這張圖是告訴我們過去10年來從2015年出生人口數從21萬"},{"start":22247.011,"end":22261.869,"text":"一直到去年的農年13.8萬今年上半年現在是6.6萬預期不會超過13萬因此生育問題不再是某一些人選擇要不要生育的問題"},{"start":22263.05,"end":22283.773,"text":"我覺得是整個社會能不能生有沒有辦法生的一個結構性的困境我想請教貝提米人當自然生育沒有辦法去支撐世代交替的時候例如有人因為疾病因為器官缺損等等即便他有胚胎也沒有辦法植入"},{"start":22285.115,"end":22304.435,"text":"所以該思考的問題是不是國家應該要有義務給予更多元更可行的一條生育路徑而不是一味的去禁止它所以首先我想跟你談的就是憲法下的生育自主跟家庭形成的這樣的一個保障"},{"start":22305.596,"end":22332.996,"text":"您在書面意見中有提及代理育母制度不再是社會上極少數族群的期盼願望或是需求而已而是當代社會環境下地球公民已經開始要面臨的共通問題且代孕的急迫性與成熟度在立法政策上逐漸提升本席非常認同您的見解雖然您認為目前尚未形成社會共識還需要進一步觀察進展但是請問您是否同意"},{"start":22333.476,"end":22357.099,"text":"如果社會共識永遠無法達成其實我不知道世界上有沒有所謂的共識社會共識如果永遠無法自然形成社會共識那您是否同意國家應該要積極扮演協助制度化的一個這樣的角色國家是不是有義務要去建構有效監督的一個法治的一個選項請貝提您回答"},{"start":22357.984,"end":22375.183,"text":"好 謝謝委員您的提問陳如我在回覆民眾黨黨團的問卷裡面所表示的立場我是支持在目前少子化或者是委員您剛所提到的諸多因素之下"},{"start":22376.239,"end":22397.018,"text":"當生育自然的生育不再具有可能性的時候應該容許有多元的選擇路徑那我也補充說明我在裡面會提到社會共識其實是針對代理孕母裡面孕母跟"},{"start":22397.722,"end":22423.433,"text":"子女之間有血緣的這個部分但是我的立場不是說一定要有共識才可以立法等一下我會再繼續請教您這個部分根據聯合國2024年的世界生育報告台灣去年的總生育率是全世界倒數前幾名只有0.86從生不如死的這個數據來看生育就不是個人選擇問題現在已經進入台灣社會的一個"},{"start":22424.793,"end":22440.76,"text":"人口危機跟公共政策請問您是否同意國家有必要重新對我們的人工生殖法的部分就是全面禁止代孕的部分要重新檢討來因應人民有生育自主跟家庭形成的一個保障"},{"start":22444.29,"end":22469.808,"text":"來檢討這個謝謝那您在書面回覆也提到剛剛你剛剛要解釋的話待遇若涉及人工受精模式會涉及親子關係跟奴隸關係的爭議會比較大需要特別審慎那我這裡要要說的就是說本黨所提供提出來的這個人工生殖法的修法版本並沒有納入人工受精這個待遇模式喔而是限定在試管嬰兒胚胎植入的模式那請問你"},{"start":22470.709,"end":22477.376,"text":"這樣是不是比較符合比例原則跟基本權的保障也比較合乎這個憲法的期待呢"},{"start":22478.504,"end":22504.842,"text":"是 因為他的爭議性比較少立法難度比較低所以您是支持這樣的一個版本是的好 謝謝那目前人工生殖法第11條採的是正面表列規定只有符合符合不孕症跟重大遺傳性疾病的情況的夫妻而且一方至少要具備健康的生殖細胞才能夠進行人工生殖也就是說一對合法的夫妻"},{"start":22505.402,"end":22529.627,"text":"即便他們經過醫師的專業評估認為適合用試管胚胎來進行代孕也不得為之那現行的法也未開放任何形態的一個代孕技術使得醫療機構面對這樣的個案或這樣的病人的時候他們因為法律的障礙不敢去施作那你認為這樣是不是可能過度排除了某些其他有需求的"},{"start":22530.367,"end":22537.94,"text":"族群例如卵巢摘除啦子宮摘除這是否構成對生育自主其實是有不合理的一個差別待遇呢"},{"start":22539.419,"end":22559.413,"text":"我是支持在這樣的一個方案底下將代理育母制度於納入法律的明文肯認感謝貝提米人那面對節節上升社會需求嘛最近我們看到的是民進黨政府在待遇議題上是以拖待變先騙再說啦一再用脫鉤"},{"start":22560.894,"end":22579.697,"text":"為藉口其實根本想放手那即便國際間現在已經有數十個國家他是在嚴格監管條件下允許特定形式的一個代孕那也有很多篇已經發表了這個實證醫學的研究顯示只要在妥善的支持跟規範下有代孕媽媽所生出來的兒童其實在"},{"start":22580.597,"end":22603.567,"text":"在社會跟心理的發展上它都沒有在統計學具有意義的一個負面的影響這是有證據的那另外我要談的就是說針對代孕可能造成的剝削的這個部分的討論第三屆國大代表那個莊盛榮律師他有指出合法化不等於放任喔相反的正因為代孕具有爭議性更需要法律制度來納入專業審查醫療安全"},{"start":22606.268,"end":22627.643,"text":"還有這個心理評估跟契約的保障能夠讓守護每一方的這個權利讓孩子擁有完整的法律的這個保護跟這個家庭的支持如果繼續封鎖這條路大禮物不會消失而且會進入更黑暗更危險更不正義請問被提名的您贊同這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":22629.097,"end":22654.502,"text":"我贊成在代理育母的議題上面導正是優於目前的意志我的理由在於或許目前在某些團體他會擔心代理育母制度的導入會違反人性尊嚴也就是所謂的將子宮給工具化我個人基本的立場是"},{"start":22656.348,"end":22683.185,"text":"在這樣的一個代理育母的合法化的情況之下我們其實是可以透過法治的設計去免除這個疑慮謝謝貝提名人因為幾十個國家都有了我們是可以來規範接下來我要請教貝提名人在江雅琦教授的這個學位造假的學術論理案您是否有參與出審審查工作並且擔任副召集人請你回答是或不是是"},{"start":22684.205,"end":22701.435,"text":"那在2021年11月出審審查小組認定江雅琪連續9年她在申請科技部相關的文件上她載入或使人登載法學博士學位造假虛構不存在的一個博士學位名稱"},{"start":22702.615,"end":22720.233,"text":"這個情節嚴重的影響科技部審查的判斷而且是資源分配的公正問題所以當時的這個小組他一致決議是停權三年等處分請問是不是有這件事情是您是否支持或同意這樣的一個決議內容"},{"start":22722.182,"end":22740.673,"text":"我是學倫小組的一個成員之一也是代表學門進入到誠信班確實有這樣的一個決議跟內容你也確實擔任副召集人那這個決議也是大家的共識那江雅琪當時是台電董事喔你們當初書審小組做出的這樣的建議卻在學倫審議會上"},{"start":22744.093,"end":22764.125,"text":"被台電的訴訟代理人萬國法律事務所陳鵬光律師主導推翻了這樣結果你能接受嗎當初我在國科會的誠信辦代表學門去做陳述意見的事我有"},{"start":22765.56,"end":22792.041,"text":"堅決的表達學門的立場他被推翻了那我要問的就是這個陳鵬光律師當時是否有利益衝突應該迴避審查呢我的印象是當初在開會之前有討論這件事情後來學陳姓辦的委員決議不需要利益迴避但是他本身不但他是這個"},{"start":22793.786,"end":22808.838,"text":"台電的訴訟代理人啊然後江雅琦是台電的董事啊陳某官員不僅沒有迴避審查還主導審查推翻這個這個決議然後護航江雅琦非常的離譜啊您支持嗎您支持這樣的做法嗎"},{"start":22809.338,"end":22835.824,"text":"我跟委員報告當時現場的情況當初在討論利益迴避的時候如果我的印象是正確的那個時候所提出來的室友是好像是大學同學還是同班並沒有提到台電我現在告訴你一個是台電董事一個是台電的訴訟代理人你認為這樣沒有利益的衝突嗎"},{"start":22837.13,"end":22856.878,"text":"您的見解呢?如果確實有計劃案件的關聯性的話應該要迴避吧?是好,謝謝貝提名人我進入下一個問題前,我想先請教你你認為我國的總統應該是全民的總統、全民的領袖還是特定政黨的超級領袖呢?"},{"start":22857.638,"end":22878.877,"text":"是中華民國的總統當然是國家的總統好謝謝你2009年民進黨黨主席蔡英文公開批評馬英九總統兼任黨主席會讓台灣的憲政進入極大的風險他認為總統不應該身兼黨主席這樣會造成權力分立的失衡蔡英文總統會這樣說是因為我國現在是半總統制"},{"start":22882.46,"end":22909.528,"text":"總統同時兼任黨主席他可以直接領導黨務而且可以掌握整個黨發展的方向總統一個人同時掌握行政權跟立法權會破壞在目前的辦總統制下總統和國會互相制衡的一個關係請問貝提米爾您剛剛也提到您是公法專家嘛您也即將擔任大法官從您對憲法的認知對台灣目前這個辦總統制下蔡英文這樣講對不對"},{"start":22912.477,"end":22928.79,"text":"我的認知至少從憲法的規範角度來講並沒有明文的禁止執政黨或是總統不可以兼任黨主席因為這是一個政治事務跟憲法事務的區隔"},{"start":22929.878,"end":22955.535,"text":"那當然在這邊基本上我不反對可以兼任黨主席但是要有憲法上的分際也就是在執行憲法職權時謝謝詹教授我們等一下繼續討論結果言猶在有蔡英文她在2016年或2020年擔任總統時她都身兼了黨主席那現在的總統賴清德也是身兼了黨主席"},{"start":22956.095,"end":22978.756,"text":"但是不管是馬英九、蔡英文或賴清德任期內憲法都沒有再修正過喔台灣依舊是半總統制那過去被人家討論的或是蔡英文總統講得那麼清楚的憲政危機權利分立失衡難道會因為換人執政換黨執政就不存在或消失了嗎不會不會好謝謝你"},{"start":22982.106,"end":23004.96,"text":"所以總統兼任黨主席在台灣目前的這個半總統制度下有權無責有權無責不僅破壞憲政體制造成權力分立的一個失衡更是全面的棄守全民總統的格局成為特定政黨的超級領袖我想要強調你望遠全世界民主程度越低的國家"},{"start":23005.88,"end":23027.3,"text":"他這個權力失衡權力分離失衡的情況是越嚴重的我想請教貝提米您是否同意台灣應該要開啟檢討總統跟政黨主席角色重疊的問題避免讓政黨利益高於或凌駕在國家利益之上呢您同意可以開啟這樣的檢討嗎"},{"start":23030.554,"end":23058.255,"text":"這樣的一個思索的方向當然在我們的整個憲政體制的進展當中我覺得是一個可以思考的命題但是我也跟委員報告在當代的憲政運作民主的體制之下他跟政黨政治是難以脫鉤的我理解那個曾教授就是說"},{"start":23060.483,"end":23076.202,"text":"檢討還是可以啟動的嘛當然因為還是有人尤其是當事人自己提出這樣的一個見解嘛那如此我覺得才能讓我們好不容易得來的這個自由民主價值繼續深化讓整個國家社會是一個處於一個比較穩定的狀況接下來是國會改革問題"},{"start":23076.943,"end":23101.317,"text":"您的問卷回覆中針對113年憲判制第九號提出不同意見主要有三個部分您的鑑決跟憲法法庭判決不同分別是總統到立法院國情報告官員缺席備詢是得罰還以及公務員不配合調查的時候得移送監察院這些都被判違憲了但是您問卷中的回覆是認為可以進行核限制的"},{"start":23102.017,"end":23130.158,"text":"解釋本席先肯定您有提出不同意見的勇氣那我再來請教首先是總統的國情報告賴清德在競選的時候說總統是有義務到立法院做國情報告但是憲法法庭卻說總統並無到立法院做國情報告的義務請問被提名人到底是賴總統說錯了還是憲法法庭解釋錯了總統到底有沒有義務到立法院來做國情報告呢"},{"start":23130.933,"end":23148.171,"text":"以目前憲法的規範是沒有是有的沒有義務沒有義務可以到立法院來報告但是您的見解是可以是我的見解是那一個職權行使法可以做核限性解釋"},{"start":23148.832,"end":23165.729,"text":"是可以做核心的解釋那一個因其實是解釋成不具有拘束性去年國會改革修法如果官員無故缺席被尋或是故意拒打立委的質詢經院會決議可以處以罰款後來被憲法法庭又判違憲了"},{"start":23166.87,"end":23188.248,"text":"所以這個會議就出現行政院秘書長龔明星他缺席委員會然後國安會秘書長吳釗燮甚至兩度缺席但立法院卻對缺席的委員毫無辦法去克責請問被提名人你認為對於官員沒有辦法盡他的政治責任時給予法律的制裁這樣有違憲嗎"},{"start":23191.254,"end":23202.043,"text":"我們在司法院釋字585號的解釋裡面當初大法官的判決是肯認"},{"start":23203.834,"end":23218.669,"text":"對於不遵守違反國會調查權跟質詢權的官員是可以以行政裁罰的方式因為這是確保調查權有效實施的附屬權利"},{"start":23221.452,"end":23235.706,"text":"其實民進黨在野的時候他非常支持國會要有聽證調查權那去年國會改革的修法也賦予立法院調查權而且對於不配合調查的機關政府機關或是公務員可以移送監察院進行糾正糾舉或彈劾"},{"start":23237.467,"end":23253.37,"text":"但這個部分竟然也被判違憲了您在書面回覆有提到說認為這個修法可以解讀成是對機關或是公務人員為師的一個檢舉那促使監察權的職權發動而已應該沒有違憲可不可以請你稍微再說明一下"},{"start":23254.717,"end":23270.42,"text":"這個在憲判第九號的解釋理由書大法官有做一個說明他說即使是檢舉也會造成憲政機關之間的一個可能是恐怖平衡的失衡"},{"start":23271.401,"end":23285.231,"text":"不過我個人認為這個當然作為有權解釋我尊重憲判的見解但是我個人認為這個部分其實就是一種檢舉促使有權機關去發動他的職權"},{"start":23287.812,"end":23309.444,"text":"謝謝您因為您在書面這樣回答我也希望大家能夠聽到您公開的一個說明那我再請教貝提敏人根據我國憲政體制下的垂直權利分立制度地方政府在自治事項上具有一定程度的自主性中央政府應該是秉持輔導性的原則不要輕易的介入或否決地方的立法"},{"start":23310.004,"end":23326.912,"text":"然而台中市政府依生煤自治條例開罰中火超量使用生煤一案中卻遭行政院以部分條文違反空污法為由橫告無效當地方政府提起行政訴訟的時候最高行政法院也認為"},{"start":23328.272,"end":23354.147,"text":"應由憲法法庭來解釋而不提供實質救濟也就是中央一紙函告那地方政府就只能吞下去只能接受您認為這樣符合憲法中保障的地方自治跟垂直分權的原則嗎如果我的資訊沒有錯誤這個案件應該目前有申請憲法訴訟有沒有受理我不確定"},{"start":23355.12,"end":23372.751,"text":"所以以下我只能做一般式的認證我想請問台中市政府他更嚴格的一個環境保護開發中國是否也屬於地方自治合理的一個範疇呢至少就空汙而言我個人的基本立場是地方"},{"start":23374.432,"end":23400.089,"text":"並不完全沒有權限空屋這個防治的環境保護本來就是應該一個因地制宜的一個做法可是當時這個這個台中市政府依法開罰中火這個1800萬元結果當時環保署禁制撤銷罰單喔那台北這個高層環環境部是沒有權限這樣做的啦我覺得現在是進行中那我想我最後要告訴"},{"start":23400.969,"end":23418.834,"text":"被提名人就說大法官本來就是一個獨立的標杆但大法官做出裁決說應該要秉持公正跟獨立超然的精神請問你,你有這個信心跟決心當你成為大法官之後,您可以超然獨立的行使你的職權嗎?您點頭嗎?好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝被提名人的答詢"},{"start":23432.749,"end":23452.406,"text":"蘇巧慧委員之詢問以書面提出,列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請陳玉珍委員詢問謝謝主席,我們有請這個被提名人詹教授詹被提名人答詢"},{"start":23461.171,"end":23487.252,"text":"我看到您在口頭報告裡頭說到您對憲政領域的專業和能力表現會秉持對憲法的信念和自我的驅使會捍衛憲政價值的核心本席表示肯定也肯定您是非常學有專精尤其在行政法的部分應該是國內的翹楚我想特別跟您請教幾個問題"},{"start":23488.533,"end":23503.381,"text":"第一個這個行政法的原則就是說在行政活動中要遵守的法律規範指導原則主要包括下列幾點我們先舉其大要者依法行政原則還有誠信及信賴保護原則還有比例原則這個對吧"},{"start":23505.082,"end":23532.003,"text":"是沒錯嘛這個是基本的行政法ABC然後我想請問您那前一陣子我們在報道上看到一篇報導就是有關這個陸配的這個相關報導就是這個陸配被剝奪這個參政權這個報導這篇報導是一位李律師寫的他說請修理憲法不要修理陸配他們是台灣人他說這個裡面說到憲法說大陸地區人民為我國人民您贊成這一點嗎"},{"start":23534.442,"end":23559.482,"text":"從憲法的角度來講我們不會把他視為是外國人對 從憲法的角度來講大陸地區人民不是外國人對吧因為我常常在聽到民進黨的立委在政論節目上那個王一川委員說陳玉珍說憲法說大陸地區人民不是外國人他說這個一點法學常識都沒有您大法官背景跟我一樣沒有法學常識我想請問您"},{"start":23561.022,"end":23582.144,"text":"這個不好意思這個國民黨團有一個問卷跟您請教幾點有關這個國家安全保障人權的部分您回覆的重點如下從憲法角度以觀人權的限制本身並不必然當然過程違憲人權的限制來要細膩的審查其他政當事由是否該當然後另外一個"},{"start":23582.825,"end":23604.25,"text":"就是您承認說在國家安全安全保護之間是一種可能因為社會政治因素不同而擁有變動之可能性然後必然是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境調和然後接著在古典的學理上基於國家安全限制一些憲法保障的自由權利必須是"},{"start":23605.49,"end":23623.726,"text":"以達有著手危害國家存在的具體限制之程度如果只是單純的意念表達或是不具影響力的鼓吹尚不足以具有限制人權的憲法上正當性這是您的回答沒有錯吧"},{"start":23624.606,"end":23636.954,"text":"這每個字都是您說的那您提到因為我們這個是討論有關國家安全和人權保障我看您剛剛的報告也相當的注重這個人權的保障那但是您說有一種可能是因為社會政治"},{"start":23638.274,"end":23666.588,"text":"因素不同而擁有變動之可能性是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境的調和這可不可以再說清楚一點班子們好像是讓大家覺得司法像月亮初一十五不一樣因為社會現實需要的現實情境的融合可以再舉實例說明嗎好謝謝委員的提問也謝謝委員讓我有說明的機會國家安全它是一個不確定的法律概念"},{"start":23667.748,"end":23689.746,"text":"而且對國家安全而限制人權的管制強度跟手段也擁有不同它可能是一個初步的行政管制的限制也有可能是高密度的刑罰或者是這個案例裡面的甚至是驅逐出境我的意思是說在個案"},{"start":23690.773,"end":23698.499,"text":"審查核限信使我們在橫著公益跟私益就回到剛剛委員第一章"},{"start":23700.421,"end":23727.831,"text":"檢報檔裡面所談的比例原則我們既要去關注那個公益室友的強度也要關注他干預措施的強度那我用例子來問您這個4-64號明確的解釋人民團體法容許主管機關與許可設立人民團體權得救人民主張共產主義或主張分裂國土之政治上言論之內容為審查並作為不許可之理由"},{"start":23729.031,"end":23753.331,"text":"所以我想請問您下面這四個問題第一個,主張共產主義是不是屬於言論自由?是主張分裂國土是不是屬於言論自由?是主張武統台灣是不是屬於言論自由?是主張用刑法100條來辦在野黨立委是不是屬於言論自由?"},{"start":23755.517,"end":23782.367,"text":"以上這幾點 您都認為這是言論上的主張應該是跟劣勢式的看法是從基本權的角度 這個都是言論上的主張就是這些都是一種主張嘛並沒有著手去實施嘛 對吧應該你是從這個角度來出發所以這些都是言論自由那但是呢 您看到最近我們國家做了哪一樣的事情我們國家對於主張這個無從的這個陸配啊做驅逐出境 這等於是做這個人權上很大的這個侵害這個他"},{"start":23784.768,"end":23800.753,"text":"你的說法跟這個陸委會的說法不太一樣跟我們行政院說法不一樣行政院就是陸委會我們在這個行政機關認為主張武統台灣不是一個言論自由這是危害國家安全那您的說法是所以我很擔心等一下如果民進黨委員詢問的時候這個好"},{"start":23802.313,"end":23827.199,"text":"我們下一題啊 憲法徵求條例第十一條自由地區嘛 我們中華民國憲法自由地區與大陸地區人民權利義務關係其他處理是用法律為特別之規定就是我們說台灣地區與大陸地區兩岸人民關係條例嘛就這個條例嘛這個剛問過 因為您說過這個 請問您大陸地區的人民是不是中華民國的人民這個您剛說過是嘛按照憲法徵求條例來講那"},{"start":23829.119,"end":23856.596,"text":"除了這一件剛剛說這個驅逐陸配這個主張無統顏論的被驅逐這個人權受到侵害以外齁最近行政機關做了一件事情他要求陸配 陸配 您知道嗎您不知道有沒有關心這個時事就是很多陸配來台灣已經很久了二三十年而且已經取得中華民國的這個身份證明但是我們的政府機關說當時你們證件可能補不齊所以要求你們補除籍證明齁兩國人民公共條例是有規定涉及台灣要繳交除籍證明齁那請問"},{"start":23857.616,"end":23877.068,"text":"當時在給這些證件的時候,也許是補得足或補足,也許有補足也有補不足但是在事後已經經過二三十年後,才又要求這個人民繳交當初應該繳交過的文件請問在法律上,法律上是可以追溯繳交當初應該繳交過的文件嗎?在這個行政措施上你的看法怎麼樣呢?"},{"start":23878.629,"end":23907.485,"text":"你知道我在問的題目吧我了解這個可能會涉及到如果當初在法律的規定裡面就必須繳交對必須繳交但是只是行政便宜讓相對人能夠延緩但是他時候已經取得了已經給他這個相關的證明了對就給他身份證明了一個消極的行政不去執法的作為可否作為信賴的基礎是"},{"start":23909.997,"end":23927.628,"text":"經過這30年後 或者是有實效性或是有怎樣 我想請教這一點您的看法呢通常我們在學理上所講的信賴保護 或者是不得溯及適用它的前提必須要有一個積極的受益的行政行為"},{"start":23928.979,"end":23954.774,"text":"所以說您的意思是說因為當初是消極的不作為行政不作為所以現在要求他去補當然我知道要求補是一定可以的這個沒有問題但是如果他沒有補的話是不是可以因此而剝奪他的身份權中華民國國籍他們已經取了身份證這樣的權利做這樣的對人權的侵害跟所謂的因為他沒有補交這種比例來講您的看法呢"},{"start":23955.666,"end":23972.195,"text":"我的看法倒是不會這麼樣的一個非黑即白的不是非黑即白現在就要執行法律啊這樣沒有佼佼是不是應該被剝奪他中華民國國民的權利呢我的意思是說因為畢竟這是長年以來憲政不積極執法的問題"},{"start":23973.973,"end":23998.442,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下我們在解決目前面臨到的困境有沒有可能以一個比較這個折衝的方式來解決這個問題所以不過我知道這是後面的話但如果今天行政機關就說好三個月內五個月內一年內你沒有繳交我就是要剝奪你這個身份就是一樣驅逐出境像剛剛那個武統陸配他的言論自由他被驅逐出境那你也認為這樣是合憲的嗎"},{"start":24001.172,"end":24025.982,"text":"有沒有因為用國家安全的理由或因為你的行政以前的消極不作為而剝奪人民的這個人權呢有沒有達到變成到侵犯人權的結果呢是不是何憲文好沒問題有沒有侵犯人權呢人權當然有侵犯到但陳儒剛剛跟我原報告其實我們在做如果您身為大法官這樣的事情到了憲法法庭你會怎麼做判斷呢"},{"start":24027.094,"end":24030.74,"text":"還是要看個案當中我剛講的就是這樣案子 已經是通案了"},{"start":24034.158,"end":24057.638,"text":"沒有回答 沒關係 好 那個想請問您 剛剛我聽到您在跟這個陳昭之委員 訊答的時候他說這個馬英九總統 蔡英文總統 賴清德做的憲法這個就是總統兼任這個黨主席嘛就是兼任黨主席這件事情我剛剛聽您的意見 好像您是贊同兼任嘛因為政黨政治他並不是違反憲法上並沒有違反憲法 但您是贊同嗎"},{"start":24059.579,"end":24082.137,"text":"這個是政黨政治運作的現實所以是贊成嘛對不對尊重啦 贊成嗎所以現在是要進行我想請問您的看法嘛當然尊重 我們都尊重啊我們也沒有辦法不尊重啊您的想法今天你如果當總統好了 你會堅韌嗎從政黨政治的角度來講"},{"start":24084.322,"end":24103.497,"text":"我認為只要他不逾越憲法上作為總統職權的界線所以您是贊成的好沒問題這個我沒有特定答案我只是想知道您的想法跟您以前一貫主張的想法是不是一貫之2015年的時候我再看到您有一個有一個這個"},{"start":24104.378,"end":24119.244,"text":"文章裡頭寫到總統政黨與國會之相互關係裡頭以政黨影響國政之憲法基礎建立中心這是您的文章說到黨國分立原則作為法理基礎但是國家與政黨要保持一定距離不容黨政不分"},{"start":24119.824,"end":24139.936,"text":"基於民主憲政體制所導出的黨政分離原則政黨影響國政領導也應該有其憲法上的界限所以呢如果以黨主席身份為國家影響這個藍營分析界分為憲政上面由總統兼任黨主席上述國民黨兩黨黨章的兼任規定應該要刪除比較妥當"},{"start":24141.237,"end":24156.996,"text":"所以在2015年的時候您認為說不應該黨政不分就是說應該政黨的主席跟這個總統不應該不應該兼任但是你2025年的時候想法可能就是覺得說這個政黨政治所以也是一樣初一十五不一樣下一題請問您"},{"start":24160.987,"end":24186.921,"text":"中華民國憲法徵修條例第十條第十二項就是有關這個澎湖金門馬祖地區就是中國國家要經過依照民族意願要對這個教育交通水利衛生醫療經濟土地社會福利還要扶持出去發展的辦法與法律這是針對原住民對金馬澎湖的一樣的民眾也要做一樣這樣憲法上的這個保障我想請您看一下我們金門鄉親上實際上遇到的這個實際上的困境您看一下這個圖"},{"start":24188.442,"end":24210.422,"text":"你看這個禁限制水域金門的禁限制水域這個是中華民國畫的依照兩岸人民條例29條規定是禁止大陸的船進入這個水域裡頭禁限制水域紅色跟黑色的有沒有看到禁止跟限制水域禁限制水域因為金門離大陸很近你理解嗎在廈門的旁邊所以我們把它畫起來禁止大陸船跑到金門的這個禁限制水域裡頭你們看懂了嗎"},{"start":24211.636,"end":24241.056,"text":"那他這個意思是怎樣 限制 禁限制大陸的漁船跑進來嘛大陸的船舶跑進來嘛那相對的我想請問您啊這個可是海巡署在執法的時候反倒是禁止金門的漁船不能超出這個禁限制水域跨出去就變成要被起訴這個禁限制水域原來是在限制大陸的今天變成我們劃地制限啊金門的漁民他的權利呢 他反而不能跑出這個這條禁限制 這些禁限制水域裡頭"},{"start":24242.856,"end":24262.361,"text":"您覺得這樣沒有侵犯到我們金門漁民的捕撈權利嗎就我們只能在這個圈圈裡頭捕撈不能超過這條線 這條線原來是禁止大陸進來的反而今天執法單位變成禁止金門漁民出去您覺得這樣是正確的嗎然後把他們都移送到地檢署 好幾百件"},{"start":24265.73,"end":24283.704,"text":"因為我對這個的前提狀況不是很清楚那如果按照剛剛委員所描述的事況我會理解為那個禁制區確實就是一個禁止大陸地區或者是外國的漁船進入到的一個"},{"start":24284.284,"end":24301.474,"text":"當初畫的都是這樣子啊沒錯啊29條規定啊那為什麼現在它變成執法單位變成禁止金門漁民出去啊把我們自己畫起來畫地支線畫起來然後接著如果跑出去船開出去的漁民全部被移送到金門縣之後這個金門縣現在有數百件啊"},{"start":24302.898,"end":24323.548,"text":"那這種執法有依法執行嗎?紅線以外是中華民國的臨海管轄區域嗎?這個我不太清楚當然是中華民國啊!中華民國啊!只是說現在因為我們有大陸禁嘛,他就畫起來不讓大陸進來嘛結果我們出去也犯法這個東西是不是有疑問啊?好!有疑問嗎?你覺得?"},{"start":24325.432,"end":24342.254,"text":"因為我對於基礎事實跟法律沒有基礎事實就跟你講這樣如果我講不對這個當然答案不是就不會是這樣子啦我的基礎事實就是這條線即限制隨意就是二十九條規定了兩年規定二十九條規定禁止刀魚船進來那現在我們的人民出去了他說金門漁民也不能出去喔這樣違法喔"},{"start":24342.975,"end":24361.373,"text":"然後被送到地檢署喔 幾百件喔如果立法的目的是在禁止外傳進入的話那這樣的一個規範確實就是榮有商榷的餘地啦但是前提就是我剛剛講的前提就是這樣所以這樣的執行會變成怎樣"},{"start":24364.907,"end":24379.006,"text":"這樣的執行會怎樣我剛沒有聽清楚你說如果立法規範確實是這樣子我有立法規範確實是那這樣子的執行現在相關單位主管單位這樣的執行法律會變成是怎樣逾越立法的目的逾越立法目的好謝謝您"},{"start":24379.867,"end":24399.785,"text":"再請問您現在美國現在在我們國家在跟美國討論這個關稅那美國可能提出一個條件就是針對美牛跟美豬的這個進口的部分要求我們放寬這個萊克多巴胺這個萊劑的這種包括標示包括標示然後這個牽扯到中央跟地方剛那一題財中那個也是中央跟地方陳委員問到也是"},{"start":24400.726,"end":24424.165,"text":"如果我們國家在這個關稅談判以後我們就是放寬了就是說這個接受美國的條件就是來豬來牛這些進來的時候不標示不標示產地那這個產流標準比照這個所謂的國際原則就是接受美國的條件接受進來以後請問各個地方政府可不可以記以保障為了學生營養午餐健康為了學生健康的時候"},{"start":24424.645,"end":24437.902,"text":"要求自行要求在比如說我是金門縣我要求在金門地區的這個來租租或是有標示是不是含有萊克多巴胺這是中央跟地方這個權限您的看法如何呢"},{"start":24438.618,"end":24456.7,"text":"在萊豬案的前提之下要不要標示含有萊克多巴胺我個人認為這個是地方擁有自行決定的空間但是如果今天我們的情況改變就是透過新的規範"},{"start":24459.369,"end":24469.582,"text":"將標示義務的規範入法標示義務的規範入法就是他因為有一個跟當初做來案時不同的法規範基礎那就另當別論"},{"start":24470.407,"end":24498.208,"text":"但是在沒有改變的以現在的情形我認為標示跟食材的選用這個是地方有空間的好您的意思就是說假設今天談判的結果這個萊豬萊牛我們因為美國要扣關進來所以我們就答應了美國讓萊豬萊牛標示就是不標示但是還有萊克多巴胺的這個豬跟牛進口然後不標示讓他們進來就不標示不標示說有沒有含但是這個進口這個是"},{"start":24500.069,"end":24521.3,"text":"之前有提到這個殘留標準這些都標準是中央訂定的這個有回答到但是呢在地方是不是要採用或地方要不要標示比如說我是金門縣政府我就決定說為了保障我們金門地區學生營養午餐的安全我們就要求說要使用在學生的這個營養午餐上面一定要做標示那這個是核限的對吧"},{"start":24522.1,"end":24538.284,"text":"因為萊豬案的法院的判決憲法法庭的判決的設成範圍不及於標示的部分他只去處理關於萊劑的指定的權限是在中央或地方而已"},{"start":24539.408,"end":24565.863,"text":"好 謝謝您那我們在問卷裡頭您有提到德國聯邦憲法法院曾經有危害自由民主憲政秩序國家安全委員會將兩個敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散那請問這是您提到的這個德國有這樣的做過這樣敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散請問如果主張消滅中華民國憲法另外創制新憲法在德國聯邦憲法法院標準裡頭是不是符合解散政黨的要件"},{"start":24568.558,"end":24597.018,"text":"您看一下這個題目憲法我再提示一下憲法訴訟法第77條政黨 我把這條列完憲法政黨之目的或行為危害中華民國之存在或自由民主之憲政秩序者主管機關得申請憲法法庭為宣告政黨解散這判決那前提就是你有提到嘛德國的聯邦憲法這個法院是說以危害自由民主秩序國家安全把敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散"},{"start":24597.518,"end":24619.968,"text":"所以如果我們今天我們國內有一個政黨主張消滅中華民國憲法要另外創新憲法這樣子是不是符合解散政黨的要件如果他的主張是認為我們現行的憲法不合時宜而另行制憲影響到中華民國的存續這個部分我認為不會構成違憲"},{"start":24622.409,"end":24647.928,"text":"意思就是說假設今天我們認為說把中華民國的中華民國這個繼續存在但是把中華民國改國號改為台灣共和國台澎金馬共和國金門共和國中華民國改成金門共和國這也是合憲的是吧這個跟剛剛那個情況就不一樣因為他的這個國家主權的統一性可能就會改變我剛剛回答的前提是"},{"start":24648.608,"end":24676.04,"text":"在認同中華民國的主權前提之下我們制定一部新的憲法這個是可以的這是可以的但是把他改名可不可以呢這個就會涉及到國家存續的所以不能改名但是可以制定新憲好謝謝陳委員謝謝被提名的人下一位請陳俊宇委員詢問"},{"start":24693.493,"end":24709.069,"text":"好 謝謝大會主席我們江副院長有請我們大法官被提名人請被提名人答詢好 詹教授五萬"},{"start":24712.044,"end":24733.264,"text":"恭喜您被提名為我們這個大法官那也感謝您在這個關鍵的時刻願意承擔起首務憲法這個憲政秩序的一個重責大任那今天也很榮幸有這個機會可以在國會殿堂與您一起來探討我們憲政與人權的相關議題"},{"start":24734.525,"end":24760.122,"text":"那你也是本次我們審查這個名單最後一位的一個大法官被提名人那有沒有信心對於這一次的提名能夠順利過關謝謝委員的鼓勵我盡我所能好那也在此祝福預祝您在這個提名的過程裡面能夠順利過關讓憲法法庭儘早恢復這個正常的運作"},{"start":24761.331,"end":24768.966,"text":"過去也不乏有優秀的學者轉任我們憲法的守門人的角色對於"},{"start":24770.847,"end":24794.235,"text":"這個國家根本的制度發揮有了這個深遠的影響那接下來我想進一步針對您本於這個大法官的這個理念及挑戰以及社會所關心的相關議題來和您做一個討論也請詹教授能夠完整的說明您的看法那大法官一任的任期是八年"},{"start":24796.294,"end":24821.469,"text":"若您與其他的被提名人能夠在這次的審查過程順利通過的話任期將會到2033年考量到政經情勢的一個變化以及民主政治的一個發展放眼到8年後的這段期間您認為我們憲法法庭所面臨的最大困難及挑戰會是什麼"},{"start":24823.117,"end":24843.363,"text":"好謝謝委員的提問這個時程還蠻遠的所以當然世事變遷難以預估不過請容許我以目前我們的政治現況跟委員來做回覆跟報告"},{"start":24845.839,"end":24855.525,"text":"如果能夠有幸出任大法官我想我立即會去面臨到的困境大概有兩件事情"},{"start":24856.479,"end":24881.192,"text":"第一個就是在大法官的職權行使上面關於這個限訴法的修正當然未來釋憲的結果如何難以預測但是依照目前的修法狀況他會讓整個大法官一決平易的難度拉高那這個可能是"},{"start":24882.192,"end":24907.3,"text":"好處是它增加了公信力但是面臨到的困境是其實裡面的共識更難形成這是程序面我初步想到的實體面就是向來申請憲法解釋人權案件高達98%以上不過以目前我們的政治生態"},{"start":24909.092,"end":24932.137,"text":"憲政機關之間的權力分立的爭議可預期的案件量會大增權力分立的釋憲其實他會面臨到很困難的一個困境這是除非憲法是強制規定否則的話他不免還是擁有一個價值判斷的空間"},{"start":24933.488,"end":24945.182,"text":"所以我們從憲判9其實已經得到這樣的一個啟發我相信這個也是有未來會去面對的一個困境跟挑戰好那"},{"start":24946.499,"end":24971.514,"text":"在今年3月的時候我們大法官被提名人介紹的記者會上我們蕭美琴副總統曾表示我們之前賴總統對於被提名人有三個期許第一就是要守護自由民主的憲政制度來捍衛人權、保障及人民權利的一個救濟"},{"start":24972.469,"end":24980.228,"text":"那第二是要提升我們國安這個案件的專業能量確保國家安全及連任的政治"},{"start":24980.984,"end":25004.632,"text":"第三是要持續推動司法改革提升審判品質這個效率同時進行司法工作環境的一個減壓那當然其中有涉及司法行政的這個部分是屬於政府院長的全責了那未來若您能順利來擔任大法官您認為應該如何達到以上三個期許"},{"start":25006.055,"end":25024.72,"text":"好 謝謝委員蕭副總統如何對這次七位被提名的大法官被提名人的定調這個其實當初在程序上我們其實是不清楚這樣子的一個期許"},{"start":25026.004,"end":25041.681,"text":"但是在這個的前提之下我個人認為第一個期許這個本來就是大法官的職責維護自由民主的憲政秩序本來就是作為大法官理應捍衛之事"},{"start":25042.898,"end":25065.783,"text":"那第二個部分 國安 這或許是有行政職的部分 針對我們一般的司法審判的議題但是回到大法官的關聯性上面 正如剛剛跟其他委員的答覆國安它可以是限制人權的一種公義適用"},{"start":25067.083,"end":25088.62,"text":"但是它不会是绝对优先的一种理由所以如果未来在行使大法官职权时还是会回到个案里面去衡量跟斟酌在这里所涉及到的国安的保护的强度为何"},{"start":25089.29,"end":25102.974,"text":"所以這個部分我倒不認為國安的能量必然是因為這樣的提名而會有所提升的至於說四大改革這個陳如剛委員所說這可能是比較涉及到"},{"start":25104.656,"end":25124.456,"text":"司法行政的面向那我也只能說站在大法官的職責我會盡其所能的加速在自己能力範圍內讓案子能夠早一點達到這個裁判的可能性來消化目前正在排隊冗長的這些案件"},{"start":25125.778,"end":25147.927,"text":"好,謝謝我們教授的這個詳細的說明那我們也談到對於這個大法官的一個期待那多半會提到對於人權保障的一個議題畢竟這個憲法作為人民基本權益的一個後盾在面對社會的這個快速發展之下也必須與時俱進"},{"start":25149.895,"end":25164.19,"text":"那在您的報告書當中第五頁有提到說您對於憲政核心的一個理念是人性尊嚴的保障與提升並且面對社會急劇的變遷認為人權保障"},{"start":25167.821,"end":25193.232,"text":"仍然有諸多需要提升的地方那我想了解的是若您擔任大法官在未來的這個任期當中您最關切的這個人性尊嚴人權保障的議題及您認為這個很更不變的這個普世價值會是什麼大法官不僅僅是人權的守護者"},{"start":25194.292,"end":25201.385,"text":"他同時在職權範圍內也盡可能的能夠作為人權的促進者"},{"start":25202.925,"end":25227.948,"text":"當然如果有相關的憲法訴訟的案件進來在不違反這個司法被動的原則之下我有機會能夠去這個表述一些人權精進的看法的話我會覺得我們目前有一些像我在口頭報告裡面所表述的像受刑人的"},{"start":25229.423,"end":25249.165,"text":"這個參政權像剛剛這個陳昭之委員所提到的生育權甚至我們目前因為社會的變遷年輕人買不起房子這種所謂的氏族的這個居住權這個其實在兩公約裡面都有去提到"},{"start":25250.768,"end":25262.813,"text":"部分他是比較具有前瞻性的但是如果真的有訴訟案件進來的話我也會很樂意在上面去落實這樣比較前瞻性的人權的實現"},{"start":25264.309,"end":25288.912,"text":"好 那就誠如剛剛教授您所說的不管是在人身自由還是年輕世代氏族居住權的促進等等這方面我也希望說我們未來如果有機會在這個職務上應該要多多來重視保障他們的基本權益那再來我是"},{"start":25289.537,"end":25315.628,"text":"就針對這次審查過程當中,有很多委員都有提及的關於憲法法庭運作的能力的相關問題我想還是請教我們被提名人至去年的10月31日7位的大法官卸任之後,司法院至今對於目前只有8位大法官在任"},{"start":25317.109,"end":25326.225,"text":"對於這個先前人事案未能順利的通過那使得大法官人數一直都無法湊足也沒辦法補足"},{"start":25326.769,"end":25354.924,"text":"那同時在去年的12月20號這個國會通過這個限訴法修正案並且於這個今年的1月23日正式實施其中第30條有關憲法判決評議的這個門檻規定做成憲法判決至少要10位大法官參與評議宣告違憲的部分也需要9位以上大法官同意"},{"start":25356.557,"end":25377.726,"text":"司法院曾在去年的新聞稿當中也提出示警表示此舉將不利憲法審查與效率並且與人民基本的權益保障會有風險事實上自新法實施至今,尚無任何憲法判決的作成"},{"start":25378.561,"end":25405.556,"text":"那再進一步觀察今年5月12日現任大法官雖然曾就此召開這個說明會但也僅就程序受理的這個要件提出說明並為就新法的這個核限性進行實質的審查現在不僅無法做成判決連是否能夠收案都成了一個非常大的一個問題那在此"},{"start":25406.638,"end":25435.094,"text":"制度困境之下未來您若擔任大法官要面對的是大法官人數不足卻有憲法疑義需解決的情況之下您認為憲法法庭是否仍然應先行受理案件由現行的大法官就受理的要件或程序這個核限性進行審查還是說應該等人數補足之後再來審理那另外"},{"start":25436.124,"end":25448.738,"text":"或是有其他的制度解釋的空間讓憲法法庭維持最低限度的憲政功能不被癱瘓以上這幾個問題是不是請教授簡單的說明"},{"start":25453.489,"end":25472.228,"text":"委員的這個問題其實難度蠻高的目前在學界確實有這樣的一個討論就是以目前的八位大法官有沒有可能進入實質審查那這最主要的"},{"start":25473.482,"end":25495.917,"text":"真點就在於說可不可以用修正前的限速法來作為程序進行的準據可以嗎如果可以的話那當然這個就解套了我個人本身是比較不持這樣的一個見解即便即便"},{"start":25496.889,"end":25522.418,"text":"它將來被我們的憲法法庭宣告為違憲但是它畢竟是一個三讀通過而現行有效的法律所以從這個觀點來講目前憲訴法的三十條的規定似乎我個人的看法用舊法去審空間並不大"},{"start":25523.584,"end":25552.125,"text":"那有沒有什麼制度上的選擇去解套以我目前有限的知識確實很難想到有什麼比較理想的方案那當然最理想方案當然就是說我們趕快讓這個低於10位以下的主持人能夠把他母數補足讓他盡早的回復應有的憲政功能這也是我們期待的"},{"start":25553.646,"end":25566.53,"text":"再來我想請教被提名人,有可能在未來任期內直接面對的一個重要的憲政問題,也就是中央政府總預算大幅的刪減與凍結所引發的憲法爭議"},{"start":25569.571,"end":25584.32,"text":"那根據這個釋字第391號解釋大法官雖然肯認立法院在審查預算時有調整與刪減的這個權限但也特別提及不得比照這個法律案"},{"start":25585.16,"end":25599.995,"text":"逐條修正並應尊重行政機關整體編列的邏輯與功能我想國會的刪減不應該侵害其他憲法所賦予的行政機關整體編列的"},{"start":25602.597,"end":25625.049,"text":"核心職權及它的基本運作的能力因此我想請教教授您認為針對特定機關的業務費集中三減若使得該機關難以履行其憲法職責是否有可能違反憲法上的權利分立原則"},{"start":25627.808,"end":25653.28,"text":"我們憲法當中對於預算提出權跟預算審議權它的框架規範其實是相當薄弱的那如果按照剛剛委員您所提出的假設命題如果它成就的話也就是說預算的三減足以"},{"start":25655.731,"end":25681.898,"text":"癱瘓一個憲法機關他的法定職權的行使在這個情況之下就有可能逾越憲法當中的權力分立及機關忠誠的原則至於說有沒有達到實質癱瘓或者是形同虛設這樣的一個情境那可能還是要看具體三檢的狀況而定"},{"start":25684.506,"end":25711.836,"text":"我們也看到監察院已經在3月份申請釋憲行政院也在5月份對於總預算也申請釋憲但由於大法官人數未達評議門檻尚未實質的來審查但如果總預算案被宣告違憲接下來如何補救也會是一個非常大的問題依照比例原則通案來分析"},{"start":25712.335,"end":25732.516,"text":"您認為有沒有具體的判斷三檢是否逾越必要程度的標準或界限而基於各機關憲法職權的尊重我們應該如何與立法院預算審查的職權之間能夠取得一個平衡點"},{"start":25734.298,"end":25763.636,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為案子細數我大概就只針對我自己的想法做一般性的回應預算審議權不代表沒有界限成了我剛剛跟委員報告的那目前不管根據大法官的解釋意旨也好或者是相關的學說的見解也好比較穩定的是"},{"start":25764.335,"end":25789.99,"text":"法定經費這個部分是不能刪的也就是說例如說像維持一個機關常態運行的公務人員的人事費這個部分是沒有刪除的空間再來我們大法官在釋字601號涉及到那個時候大法官的司法專業家籍"},{"start":25791.707,"end":25810.382,"text":"被立法院以預算案的方式去刪除那在601號的解釋裡面我們大法官認為這不僅僅是一個這並不是一個立法院可以刪減預算的裁量權"},{"start":25811.513,"end":25833.066,"text":"他50更是憲法80條81條的一個法定憲法上的必要的支付項目那如果今天碰到這個底線大概會比較清晰的他會涉及到在這裡會有危險之餘好那"},{"start":25834.817,"end":25850.198,"text":"時間因素,在此我也謝謝我們被提名的詹教授今天非常詳細的一個回答上面的這些問題那您的這個理念跟看法我們都非常的明白"},{"start":25850.731,"end":25868.412,"text":"那大法官不但是我們憲政秩序跟民主制度的一個守護者那因本於這個獨立專業與良知來審理這個憲法相關的訴訟案件並做成這個裁判那也是保障我們人民基本權利最堅強的一個後盾"},{"start":25869.012,"end":25892.097,"text":"那您在憲法上的觀點價值上的判斷都會直接影響到台灣未來的一個在自由、平等與法治上的一個走向那我由衷期待停擺多時的這個憲法法庭能夠盡速的恢復正常的運作朝野能夠秉持專業的這個審查的態度來行使同意權更希望能夠透過今天國會的這個對話能夠讓社會大眾了解您對於這個憲法的這個理解"},{"start":25897.978,"end":25916.463,"text":"以及作為大法官所具備的這個私人性那謝謝我們今天大法官被提名的詹教授也祝您一切順利謝謝委員謝謝詹委員謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行詢問現在休息"},{"start":26798.862,"end":26826.038,"text":"全院委員會現在繼續開會,進行委員詢問,請牛委員許庭詢問謝謝主席,我們詹貝提名人有請詹教授午安,辛苦了"},{"start":26828.475,"end":26851.451,"text":"今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題想跟您就教、跟您探討首先是有關於司法改革的部分根據TPPS今年5月15號公布的賴總統就任週年的民調司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項只有30%的人認為是滿意的而有高達58%的民眾他其實是非常不滿意的"},{"start":26852.091,"end":26877.113,"text":"那麼美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調大概有59.3%的人認為在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況57.9%的人認為政治利益介入檢調機關辦案57.6%認為政治介入司法案件差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在台灣司法的各項表現是持非常高度質疑的狀況"},{"start":26879.264,"end":26896.131,"text":"那麼司法改革的成效您覺得推動到現在,您覺得表現如何?司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度?換言之司法公信力要如何來確保?您目前針對司法改革的表現,您是滿意的嗎?謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":26900.27,"end":26925.387,"text":"司法改革的議題其實幾十年來一直是一個問題那前面幾位被提名人其實也有去回應他的成因何在那如果委員您是問我個人的一個看法的話當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴"},{"start":26926.808,"end":26946.833,"text":"畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情人民對於國王的徵抄有所懷疑後面的公權力的行使其實都會受到撼動沒錯所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法司法改革當然要參著民眾的可信賴性"},{"start":26947.639,"end":26971.605,"text":"好,你又要掺著民眾的可信賴性,那我們就針對這個民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況,我們來稍微進行一下深入的一個討論因為您在幾個自傳裡面我大概也拜讀了,你寫說獨立審判其實是不可退讓的嘛,這個其實是法律人的非常重要的一個原則嘛如果不管是各級法官上到憲法法庭、下到各級法院,如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的一個狀況,那其實就會出現"},{"start":26972.445,"end":27000.517,"text":"司法公信力不足的狀況連帶會造成非常多的災難那您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響我沒有辦法幫其他的人來做擔保這個是我很誠懇的跟委員回覆至少我自己可控的部分"},{"start":27001.309,"end":27023.127,"text":"我可以在這裡做一個保證其實這個就是大概是最抽象但是也最難回答的題目因為我就舉一個例子好了比如說上一次我們在進行大法官的人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候到最後我們劉靜儀被提名人她到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺因為按照最後的票數的結果來看因為民眾黨是支持的"},{"start":27023.507,"end":27049.577,"text":"如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官的人選他其實是有辦法過關的但後來我們這個執政黨黨團的總召柯建民是講說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨所以如果支持他我們就要開除黨籍這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入您怎麼看待這樣的事情大法官適格性的審查我個人的解讀應該是專業知識"},{"start":27053.362,"end":27073.567,"text":"操守風骨跟獨立性除此以外當然站在大院的立場必須也要為選民而來把關但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準好"},{"start":27076.319,"end":27098.507,"text":"謝謝因為我們之所以會這樣問因為這個我想也不是針對您個人而是所有被提名的大法官審查的時候普遍上社會都會很擔心尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的在這樣的一個情況之下社會上都會擔心我們會不會到最後立法院通過最後都是會配合政治期待的大法官而不是獨立自主的大法官這樣子的一個社會的要求跟影響"},{"start":27099.767,"end":27126.565,"text":"總是有一些質疑我們今天既然代表民意我們就把這個東西如實來做反應那請問您要如何在司法信任度很低的這樣一個環境之下建立您個人的未來有沒有機會做大法官您如果確保自己的公正性您能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明好 謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會我不論是在口頭報告或者是回覆各黨團的問卷裡面我都提到這樣的一個觀點"},{"start":27130.593,"end":27150.371,"text":"維持審判獨立它是一個主觀上的確信如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的我擔任學術研究工作者擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷"},{"start":27152.796,"end":27180.392,"text":"我的著作應該也不算少其實這個就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪是不是在論述當中提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯對不對有傾向於特定的政治立場所以換言之你可以保證在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所行述的這些原則跟標準會被帶到如果你有信就任大法官的話他會成為這樣一個準則我可以這樣解釋嗎"},{"start":27182.945,"end":27185.259,"text":"是的 我目前也是这样的一个看法"},{"start":27185.694,"end":27214.165,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來針對幾個因為現在這個憲法法庭好像這個越來越來越吃重了非常多的因為憲政爭議等等或者是其實他單純只是行政立法之間的一個僵局然後好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來做討論那既然立法院是民意的機關那這些相關的一些法案我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法首先我想請教一下這個被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法因為這我有特別做了一點點功課"},{"start":27215.405,"end":27231.016,"text":"政治大學的講堂上面,其實你有把這個當成一個暗幣,來跟學生來做研討跟說明其實這個簡單來說,在野黨大家都認為說我們增加了分配給地方政府的這樣一個裁員,有助於改善城鄉差距也好"},{"start":27231.556,"end":27245.671,"text":"或者是加強地方自治、地方政府施政的效率等等這些好處就不再贅述那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫那最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式他們認為這個違反了憲法第147條"},{"start":27249.054,"end":27261.966,"text":"憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範"},{"start":27267.389,"end":27291.257,"text":"詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎"},{"start":27297.913,"end":27317.229,"text":"還是跟委員報告 其一就是這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭其二3700億或3100億它在實際上的各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色這恐怕是要精準的去一一盤點"},{"start":27319.11,"end":27335.656,"text":"很抱歉我也只能夠按照您剛所提出的一般性的指標跟您做回覆也就是說財政是數證之母所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動"},{"start":27337.256,"end":27353.063,"text":"這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次架空了他作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性如果這個底線沒有去碰到縱使他可能會有摯愛難行"},{"start":27355.086,"end":27382.762,"text":"但是摯愛難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的還有距離,好謝謝我們還是針對幾個指向的問題跟財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名來做一個探討第一個,這個您覺得這個決定中央跟地方的財政分配比例的這件事情它是不是行政權的專屬權力還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論"},{"start":27384.15,"end":27395.372,"text":"依照我們目前的法制設計立法權在這裡是居於一個先導的地位也就是說他可以制定一個框架立法"},{"start":27396.127,"end":27421.684,"text":"在這個框架範圍之下行政權可以在細部去做精準的細部分配對 因為它畢竟是一部法嘛 對不對所以立法權它當然有一定的角色嘛 謝謝那現在行政端主張財政運作困難您剛剛其實已經回答的差不多了啦就是說具體來講到底怎麼樣叫財政運作困難 對不對這個還是說它其實只是一個行政效率跟事權分配的問題您目前"},{"start":27422.915,"end":27435.467,"text":"了解的狀況,因為你認為還要經過精算跟分析所以你沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎例如說在某份問卷裡面有提到某個這個"},{"start":27438.784,"end":27463.975,"text":"監察院他對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除我不知道這個資訊對不對那個是預算 我今天談的是財政收支劃分法以目前來講重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計"},{"start":27466.533,"end":27495.798,"text":"我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正你也有做一下功課,謝謝我現在就討論這個事其實這就是權跟權事權的討論我們談到事權討論的這一部分請問事權的討論它應該是行政單位內部因為它是中央跟地方的分工的問題也許要參酌一些民意的要求所以立法院可能有角色你覺得司法院用大法官、市縣等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎?"},{"start":27497.56,"end":27518.64,"text":"呃陳儒剛剛跟委員報告如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮所以碰到底線才要出手嘛對不對我舉一個例子好了因為我們大概有具體的例子譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切通通劃到了地方政府對不對讓你中央本來一鏡的政策是完全沒有辦法推行那這個本席也同意嘛"},{"start":27518.78,"end":27520.1,"text":"如果按照委員的假設情況的話可能離違憲的距離還"},{"start":27538.906,"end":27554.824,"text":"還比較大對不對這我就跟貝提敏我們也交換一下意見以現在3700億來講他當然影響了跟過去相比中央當然要多分一份錢的到地方但你要講因為這樣他所有預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空這我想我講的應該不是假設啦"},{"start":27555.485,"end":27584.371,"text":"當然沒關係這個後面有詳細的數據這我想以遭公信是沒有問題的所以我還蠻目前為止還蠻欣賞目前被提名人的回答這個您如果是成為大法官在本案如果你有機會參與審理因為這個已經被提到市縣裡面您比較傾向立法權依法擴大地方財政主張這樣的正當性還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大的控管財務的自由我自己從事地方自治多年的教學"},{"start":27585.694,"end":27594.68,"text":"我自己向來的主張就是當我們在把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候"},{"start":27596.687,"end":27623.718,"text":"跟著錢其實也要下去的否則這就會讓有權無錢的窘境所以一個前提命題是假設我們的中央跟地方的權限劃分我們要盡可能的朝向優於地方的方向去位移的話我會認同錢要跟著下去好 謝謝"},{"start":27625.407,"end":27653.46,"text":"那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持"},{"start":27654.551,"end":27683.974,"text":"我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意的殺人罪的成立殺人罪的形成憲法的另外一個意味著有一條人命或者是數條人命的生命權被剝奪了所以死刑其實是一個權益調和後"},{"start":27685.573,"end":27694.162,"text":"國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案當然這個方案不是橫鼓不變"},{"start":27695.182,"end":27722.238,"text":"我們可以當人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候或許到那個時機我們可以嚴正的考慮事實不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況所以換言之你認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前一定要兼顧司法公義性以及社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待對不對好 謝謝那"},{"start":27724.249,"end":27745.778,"text":"目前我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論取得社會的最大公約數然後再來做思考但問題是這樣現判第八號其實已經判下去了他們針對死刑的要件雖然他宣告死刑是合憲的但他其實加諸了非常多從我們民意代表的角度來看非常不合理的"},{"start":27746.078,"end":27766.807,"text":"各項邏輯包含各級審各審級需要有一致判決的這樣子的一個制度創設而這樣子的一個標準其實並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文法律條文甚至是當初申請人的主張之中請問被提名人憲法法庭有無權力自行去創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制"},{"start":27770.848,"end":27795.826,"text":"這個問題我在回覆黨團的問卷裡面我有提到雖然站在人民的立場或是未來執行大法官職務的立場大法官的判決有拘束力這個我完全認同但是如果委員您要問我個人的意見我對於這個各省級一致決的這樣的一個"},{"start":27797.646,"end":27825.61,"text":"憲法法庭的創設意見我是有一些比較不一樣的想法其實在憲判八的解釋理由書裡面有特別以並於指出這樣的方式去談論國法案件在那裡其實沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決他只要求三位的職業法官要一致決"},{"start":27827.335,"end":27849.667,"text":"那在判決的主文裡面其實也沒有彰顯這樣的職業法官一致決的話語他只說各省級一致決這個就是可怕的地方你們做出來因為是大法官法界的最高的榮譽其實你們未來如果做了大法官都掌握了非常非常大的話語權"},{"start":27850.595,"end":27873.4,"text":"哪怕他不是刑於判決主文或什麼他其實都有很有可能會影響整個法界大家的這樣子的一個思考的方向然後從而去影響實務上的判決那麼實務上來講這憲判八字號這出來之後你當然就看到越來越多有這樣的一個狀況包含什麼非罪嚴重之罪行未符合一字決等等的他其實就造成了社會很大的恐慌我們真的非常希望因為"},{"start":27873.9,"end":27900.158,"text":"如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情,大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式再來重新去改善有大法官造法疑慮的憲法判決這一部分我們希望如果您有幸可以成為大法官可以本於超然獨立跟您過去一貫的主張用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受維護司法公信力的方式來做思考這是本席給你的一個建議最後一點點時間我要問一個比較有趣的一個問題"},{"start":27901.8,"end":27918.738,"text":"這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題、一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數、誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個殺趴督這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底"},{"start":27919.478,"end":27944.948,"text":"誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張也會用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法"},{"start":27946.202,"end":27974.607,"text":"我個人的認為基本上還是取決於我們的總統副總統選罷法裡面目前的法律明定是相對多數決也就是說相對多數決的一組勝出那這個在大院的立法權的情況之下其實是可以去思考有沒有可能對這個當選的門檻反於他的公信力跟民主正當性的強化"},{"start":27975.812,"end":28004.33,"text":"再去做一個檢討換言之如果立法院經過了決議討論決議之後修法通過把它變成二輪投票制其實它並不會違背憲法的精神對不對因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數它其實都是多數我覺得憲法框架應該是一個相對大的一個範圍對憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻的規定所以如果真的立法院討論把它變成二輪投票它其實也是一個可以被思考的方案而且它不會違反憲法精神我可以這樣認定這是您的想法嗎"},{"start":28005.266,"end":28014.849,"text":"從國民主權的角度來講,我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之餘好,謝謝,以上是我針對被提名人的質詢,感謝您清楚的回答,謝謝"},{"start":28037.933,"end":28043.343,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請備題名人 謝謝請備題名人韓教授答詢委員好"},{"start":28050,"end":28067.218,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝貝提名人過去您的宣揚是來自於憲法 行政法還有地方自治領域的專長部分那如果沒有問題我想我們今天非常開心也非常期待可以跟您進行一些意見上的交流那首先我想要談一個關於法庭直播這個議題"},{"start":28068.479,"end":28091.32,"text":"因為過去這一整年當中一年多以來在立法院有非常多的迴憲亂政的立法還有預算提案我在早上跟另外一位被提名討論的時候我們也討論過但是在法庭直播這一題我想要跟您討論在憲法八十條的部分有明定法官須超出黨派之外依據法律獨立審判"},{"start":28092.501,"end":28117.839,"text":"不受任何干涉對嗎是好這個是我們憲法明定的精神那我想要跟您討論直播法庭直播算不算是一種對法官的干涉法庭直播是法庭公開的一種機制我不排除法庭直播可能會造成法官在執行職權時內在的心理壓力"},{"start":28122.011,"end":28130.933,"text":"那這個部分潛在的可能性或許會去影響到他審判原來的新政這個我不排除"},{"start":28132.564,"end":28152.567,"text":"過去如果按照您這個說法確實在法官受到這個公開直播的壓力的時候確實有可能您剛說的心理上的壓力影響到他的心證事實上我認為我剛剛只是用法官作為一個例子在相關的法庭關係當中其實不是只有法官"},{"start":28153.087,"end":28177.288,"text":"有可能受到影響如果我們來看整個案件的話其實有非常多人會受到影響包含檢察官包含證人包含鑑定人因為目前在立法院所通過的版本當然我個人是不認同這個版本在立法院所通過的版本裡面呢規定是由被告申請開啟這個所謂的法庭公開直播"},{"start":28177.828,"end":28201.803,"text":"或者是法院依照職權來裁定必須進行直播我實在是想不通有什麼樣的律師會希望自己的代理人他在法庭公開直播的時候要在大家的面前曝露所有他的案件的細節我也難以想像到底有什麼樣的情況"},{"start":28202.924,"end":28229.073,"text":"除了符合社會公益跟重大案件我們有必須有必要進行直播之外我難以想像當然我的投影片上面放的是鄭振前委員但我並不想以他個人的個案作為討論的基礎我只是提出一個荒謬的點在這個立法院三讀通過之後馬上鄭振前委員自己的案子他竟然就要求說他不要公開直播"},{"start":28229.853,"end":28246.124,"text":"我甚至認為他自己在按三讀表決通過的時候他都忘記他根本不知道原來是要被告申請而他身為這個案子的被告他可能沒有想到也或者他很擔心法院依職權裁定他就要直播"},{"start":28246.724,"end":28271.373,"text":"那當然他的案子只是讓我們看見這個法案的荒謬之處但更關鍵的是我想要跟您討論證人鑑定人檢察官到底對於他們的隱私對於他們在法院上所做的陳述還有所有的資訊後續的直播會產生哪些問題除了我剛說的當然我還有覺得還有另外一個問題也非常的我認為非常的可怕在整個直播過程當中"},{"start":28272.967,"end":28299.455,"text":"如果後續有心人刻意操作把某一些人的說話片段後製剪接加上字幕而且那個剪接可能不是時序順的剪接他可能刻意的在不同的時序點前後倒置刻意的穿插製造錯假的訊息而這些影片他就已經流傳出去了就算我們知道影片可以下架但網路這件事情是沒有辦法保證百分之百的"},{"start":28299.755,"end":28318.939,"text":"他可能會造成非常多後續的影響恐懼焦慮這些事情而所有的人可能在這個案件當中在這個直播影片當中被指指點點被不當的評論跟對待所以我才要跟您討論在憲法的高度您如何看待法庭直播後續所可能造成跟帶來的一些問題謝謝委員的提問我認為這個是一個我們在"},{"start":28325.303,"end":28336.878,"text":"法院組織法經由大院三讀通過後我們必須去嚴正面對的後續問題那如果對於三讀的條文沒有誤解的話"},{"start":28339.039,"end":28366.445,"text":"他其實還是有待於司法院去制定相關的執法我覺得委員剛剛所提到的這一些問題至少我們以比較進層的去填補各方權益的衡量可以某程度上在執法裡面去呈現出來像我在問卷的回答裡面我有去提到後製再利用怎麼樣去"},{"start":28367.325,"end":28389.01,"text":"避免委員剛剛所提到的那個疑慮當然這個尊重司法院的法規執法的制定權但是我覺得可以想像的是如果日後要以之作為另案訴訟是否具有證據能力的素材這個其實一定要面對"},{"start":28390.285,"end":28409.356,"text":"我們有沒有辦法透過執法的制定,將任何重製的影帶的全部跟片段,讓它不具有證據能力,以官方的版本為在我們法律上唯一認定的有權證據。"},{"start":28411.243,"end":28427.406,"text":"那至於說我覺得比較麻煩從憲法的高度來看就是我不是拿來做另案訴訟的證據之用而是我就是在網路上作為我的言論之一或者是所謂的言論自由的形式"},{"start":28429.379,"end":28447.671,"text":"這個恐怕我覺得也必須要去面對,任何變更的重置,尤其是以個案為前提的直播後的這些錄影、錄音,我覺得要嚴格管制。它跟一般的言論自由的行使是不一樣的。"},{"start":28449.086,"end":28465.121,"text":"那這個是我目前比較粗淺想到,在不撼動原有的三讀通過的條文底下,我們如何讓這個能夠盡可能的圓滿,達到憲法人權保障的橫平的一個方案。"},{"start":28466.035,"end":28486.61,"text":"我很謝謝貝提名人你剛提到幾個非常重要的觀點包含第一個是他跟言論自由其實不同的如何在相關執法的保障底下確保人權的這個部分但是我要問我們自己來看我們當時在黨團協商的時候我們其實就主張這很有可能造成對司法的施壓"},{"start":28487.61,"end":28506.672,"text":"你怎麼看這件事情就施壓的部分確實有可能成如我剛剛回答委員的第一個問題他確實有可能造成內在的壓力所以有沒有可能在目前我們的通過的條文裡面剛剛委員也提到被告的申請"},{"start":28507.933,"end":28531.301,"text":"跟法院依職權的裁定我們有沒有可能在個案裡面對這個部分在法官職權行使上面採比較嚴格的限縮使用的方式盡可能讓這樣的一個情況除非是認為沒有那些疑慮才准許"},{"start":28532.358,"end":28555.84,"text":"其實事實上現在的法庭就已經有錄影跟錄音了在有必要的時候可以申請使用這些東西所以我認為法庭直播在這件事情上其實是逾越了原來的所謂錄音錄影然後有需要才申請所以我今天特地把這個題目拿出來跟被提名被提名你討論了但我相信後續不管是司法的執法的相關配套或者是"},{"start":28556.601,"end":28580.757,"text":"到最後我們要如何確保剛剛說言論自由的部分施壓司法的部分還有人權的部分我認為都會是未來您可能會面對的燙手山芋好那我們接下來看第二個題目也是我們辦公室一直都在關心的關於司法少年的議題確實在這幾年當中我們看到司法少年不論是詐欺詐騙案這個大家可能覺得"},{"start":28581.978,"end":28598.198,"text":"青少年容易上鉤容易成為犯罪集團要挾持的對象或者是把他們當成是工具人的對象或者是之前在前年的時候有相關的擱淨案都讓大家重新意識"},{"start":28599.119,"end":28625.125,"text":"如何認識如何對待如何協助司法少年那我想要談一下關於少事法第83條之一的這個議題因為這個議題在戈井案之後在很多詐騙案猖獗之後在很多孩子被當成車手之後很多人開始會過來看少事法83條之一的修法是在說什麼這個當時的修法在民國65年的時候是首次新增這個條款這個條款是說五年內"},{"start":28626.405,"end":28649.931,"text":"未受管訓處分或刑之宣告就可以徒消前科先幫您做一個前情說明目的就是希望鼓勵孩子們少年們改過自新然後不要再去觸碰新的法律後來逐漸的修法逐漸的修法慢慢改變成現在是說只要一定的期間就會徒消前科"},{"start":28650.771,"end":28674.223,"text":"可是我剛說的前情是在戈井案還有非常多的詐欺詐騙案之後呢大家開始問要不要來限縮或是調整這個所謂突銷前科的條件所以司法院在去年提出修正草案目前也通過院會目前的寫法是說少年在三年內未在故意犯罪才能突銷前科"},{"start":28675.003,"end":28695.946,"text":"就這個部分,我認為從民國65年到近年來的改革,到去年提出最新版本的修法,確實時空環境背景不一樣。青少年們所接受的社會環境、學校環境、家庭社區環境,都從相對單純變得複雜、多元、而且多變,並且快速。"},{"start":28696.907,"end":28715.976,"text":"連我們大人都不見得可以應付這麼快速變換頻繁多元的樣態更何況是這些青少年因此我認為在這麼複雜的環境變遷的情況下這樣子的修法您怎麼看從五年新增然後到一定時間到現在變成三年"},{"start":28718.108,"end":28742.549,"text":"法律的修正本來就是要與時俱進那這樣子的一個微調去呼應我們目前青少年尤其是在炸漆飯的車手的部分所做的一個回應基本上我認為把它朝向有條件的限縮的塗銷這個基本立場我是支持的更何況"},{"start":28747.603,"end":28773.283,"text":"主席可以幫我暫停一下嗎謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝主席更何況呢我們在歷經這多年以來我們的青少年的成長新式成熟度完全沒有辦法跟"},{"start":28774.079,"end":28790.974,"text":"六十幾年以來的狀況相比這也就是為什麼我們之前這有點岔開話題啦就是我們18歲為成年人的那個修憲案換句話說我們如果把這個考量進去的話適時的去檢討法規範的與時俱進這個立場我是支持的"},{"start":28797.372,"end":28810.916,"text":"就這個立場我可以理解因為您剛剛說到一句話就是現在我說的這麼多變這麼快速多元文化情況下您認為現在青少年的心智成熟年齡跟心智成熟度應該遠遠超過也就是我剛說明過65年的時候將近50年前"},{"start":28815.717,"end":28831.577,"text":"但我在現場也看到另外一個困境當然我認為這個是有不同的觀點的如果我們回來看少事法或者是看兒童權利公約或者是在看我們所謂的盡可能避免少年進入司法系統的這個脈絡"},{"start":28833.439,"end":28849.719,"text":"其實當然是希望給犯罪的青少年機會也希望站在兒童權利公約的角度看待國際人權公約尤其是兩公約國內法治化之後我們如何看待這件事情我認為也是後續我們真的必須要花時間討論"},{"start":28851.201,"end":28870.621,"text":"也就是說我認同你剛剛說的孩子們的心智成熟度變高我們理當可能就認為他們對法理的認識對自己行為的約束跟把行為跟法理之間的關係做一個合理的連結我們彷彿認為這個是孩子們必須具備的能力跟素養"},{"start":28871.542,"end":28898.754,"text":"但偏偏相當的困境是當這些好人們在進化的時候其實壞人們也在進化不要說司法少年他們誤入歧途或是他們對社會認識不深其實更多的大人也不見得具備相關的法學素養法理知識或者是把法學跟生活合在一起所以我們也看到有非常多大人類似的案件所以我認為我還是期待有沒有當然後續的事情可以再討論"},{"start":28899.614,"end":28927.584,"text":"不過我還是希望有沒有在未來如果您真的可以擔任大法官有沒有機會有沒有意願在憲法法庭的判決中把我剛剛所提到的兒童權利公約也好或者是國際人權公約相關國際公約精神放入您在做相關判決的內容或者是帶入這個精神是 謝謝委員的鼓勵事實上我們目前"},{"start":28928.504,"end":28955.655,"text":"不管是兩公約也好兒童人權公約也好或者是其他消除婦女這個一切歧視其實在我們的若干憲法法庭的裁判裡面都業以援引那如果我未來出任大法官這個是不可避免的職責也必須要參考國際的人權標準這個無庸置疑 謝謝好 我非常期待看見這個部分"},{"start":28956.294,"end":28973.895,"text":"那既然我們剛講到要把國際人權公約精神納入其實另外一個也很重要在做相關判決的時候也就是民意這件事情因為民意確實是這幾年來很多人對於大法官相對容易提出的質疑大家會說大法官沒有民意基礎"},{"start":28974.656,"end":28994.431,"text":"或者是說大法官審理案件的時候沒有考量民意我很想請教您在您未來如果擔任大法官民意會不會是您做成決定的重要參考項目回委員兩個問題第一個大法官到底有沒有民意基礎"},{"start":28996.686,"end":29021.145,"text":"我自己的解读根据我们宪法关于大法官的提名跟同意权行使的规范架构大法官在这个从提名到经由大院行使同意权它其实就是一个职权行使民主正当性的赋予接下来接手的"},{"start":29022.285,"end":29043.003,"text":"與立法委員不同的是基於大法官憲法上的職責接手的是憲法八十條的獨立審判但是如同我剛剛在口頭報告所說獨立審判並不是完全漠視民意因為民意在某程度上"},{"start":29043.683,"end":29061.87,"text":"它也是彰顯社會大眾對於我們現今憲法意識及人權正義觀的一種解讀偏偏憲法訴訟又不可避免地涉及到利益衡量跟衝突"},{"start":29062.833,"end":29086.773,"text":"那我們怎麼樣做利益衡量跟衝突呢?當然是縱觀多元因素,不是只有規範,不是只有法例,包含目前人民對於這樣的人權侵害,他的一般觀感是什麼?我們當然在視線工作裡面也必須不可規避,要予以著量。"},{"start":29088.143,"end":29116.921,"text":"如果按照這個前提意思就是說您會把民意作為在做出相關判決重要參考精神之一對嗎是聽起來是這樣那所以回過頭時間有限我想跟你談一談那關於公投公投他某個部分確實就直接代表了民意那當然不論是票數的比例懸殊或多或少他確實表達呈現了某些民意的選擇但是公投結果的法律未接"},{"start":29117.441,"end":29145.673,"text":"他跟大法官解釋或是憲法法庭所做成的判決結果未接是不一樣的對嗎是好那在這個前提底下請問被提名人您認為公民投票的結果跟大法官解釋或憲法法庭判決的法律未接一旦在見解上發生衝突您會怎麼處置跟考慮像這樣的議題謝謝委員如果大法官的判決裡面"},{"start":29147.253,"end":29175.929,"text":"沒有容認給立法者有去做核限性調適的修法空間那在這裡即便我們用直接民意的公投方式來呈現多數主流的民意恐怕也沒有辦法以直接民主去取代大法官的判決反之如果大法官的判決他會回去"},{"start":29176.892,"end":29205.087,"text":"要求立法者依裁判意旨去修法那這個時候公投就擁有創制立法原則以民意的展現來讓大院行使職權時作為主要的修法的參考依據所以還是要看公投他的議題在個案當中大法官那邊的主文如何下而定"},{"start":29206.533,"end":29228.009,"text":"您的回答非常的清楚但是我時間有限我就不再多問那不過我們很期待在後續的投票當中我們可以看見你可以順利的出任大法官為我們解決非常多人民現在非常期待的很多事件的問題都還沒有辦法解決好嗎好 以上非常謝謝您今天的回答也謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝貝提米人再會請盧憲義委員詢問"},{"start":29255.256,"end":29271.728,"text":"主席有請備題名人請備題名人答詢委員好張教授好辛苦了我是最後一位剛剛看了"},{"start":29272.759,"end":29294.495,"text":"不是刚看这个月或者是说这几个礼拜刚看了你的资料大概看到了就是你有著作专书诗本论文52期刊100译文13研究计划26专题演讲或者是学术研讨76也就是说你非常的所有专精"},{"start":29295.444,"end":29323.826,"text":"我也深信你應該可以升任大法官這個職務經過這幾個委員的質詢我大概每一個都有聽到那我就針對有些是針對原住民的部分有些是針對司法不公的部分就叫你那我們台灣現在一直說我們是以南島文化優越有別於中國那可是我要跟你說的是我們的認同是一樣的我們的認同是中華民國"},{"start":29324.855,"end":29339.654,"text":"我們看到中華民國的國旗,聽到中華民國的國歌,我們都會肅然起敬,有時候會不禁傷人淚下,尤其是我們的選手得到金牌的時候。那我要問你就是說,現在到目前為止有多少大法官,"},{"start":29341.804,"end":29357.178,"text":"目前為止你說中華民國憲法15位到現在從民國三十幾到現在你說累計是不是很抱歉我不知道沒有去計算我也沒有計算所以我要告訴你我有查過沒有一位是原住民"},{"start":29357.964,"end":29377.498,"text":"因為我們常常說優越,說我們是南島文化的一個起源,我們甚至在現在在聯合國,或者說參與很多國際會議都說我們是以南島文化自居,可是我們目前沒有一位。我要凸顯的就是說,我們還是主流社會的一個決定的一個架子在框架我們。"},{"start":29378.479,"end":29406.527,"text":"那目前也沒有一位外交官是原住民那可是我們到南島有些國家比如說泛太平洋國家尤其是印尼、菲律賓、馬來西亞這些跟我們膚色、語法一模一樣的國家的時候可是卻沒有一位我們是台灣原住民作為外交官的一個身份在那邊與他們交流或者是溝通這是我要為原住民說的一個非常不公平的地方"},{"start":29407.387,"end":29433.78,"text":"接下來我講到這次我們大罷免的時候遇到的一些司法不公平的對待那憲法80條你剛有說我有聽到是超越黨派獨立審判不受任何干涉我不知道包括不包括檢察官不過就看現在這個數據來看就6月25號之前中選會的一個資料來說連署前死亡死亡連署"},{"start":29434.64,"end":29458.182,"text":"所牽涉到的委員應該有16位 重複連署23000多那偽造的339 牽涉到的委員應該有11位可是這裡面沒有一個是有被調查 也沒有被檢調單位說請到來問那可是呢 我們藍園有11個人在押 有93位被起訴我想問你的看法"},{"start":29461.744,"end":29482.939,"text":"當然我可能預測到委員您要提問的方向不過因為這個跟不管是我作為大法官被提名人或者是截至目前為止自己作為學術工作者的這個社會經驗來講相距真的是很遠"},{"start":29485.742,"end":29499.262,"text":"這個恐怕是一個事實認定的問題我還是要突顯告訴你說我們目前看到的司法不公的狀態接下來我們講到原住民自治"},{"start":29500.305,"end":29526.175,"text":"那原住民自治這個法律是在陳水扁總統時代通過的2005年2月10號到現在已經整整20年如果我們就原住民自治的法條關於有三個也就是說應該是預期意願然後保障原住民主平等地位的自主發展實行原住民主自治第五條就是說每年要編列預算好20年過去有沒有編列沒有"},{"start":29526.855,"end":29549.057,"text":"第六,如果有自治權限發生爭議的時候,應該由總統府召開,也就是說這個位階擺得很高,可是從公佈日到現在沒有進行,也就是說現在還說是部落公法人士在事辦的階段,而且還沒有開始事辦。所以如果就這樣的一個,"},{"start":29550.789,"end":29576.629,"text":"這樣的一個狀況來講我是不是要問你說公部門有沒有瀆職有沒有違憲這個問題好謝謝委員的問題這個原住民自治尤其是原基法裡面確實目前我們在規範的原來的良法美意據我的理解跟我們在原住民自治行政的推展上面確實有一段很大的落差"},{"start":29578.27,"end":29596.641,"text":"那有沒有立法帶墮進而導致或者是說行政帶墮進而導致違憲的情勢今天這個時間可能無法容許我詳細跟委員報告不過我可以跟委員分享的是部落公法人"},{"start":29597.699,"end":29620.462,"text":"其實我們到目前為止行政法院穩定的見解都不認為原民會所公布的那些是公法人其實這個問題在我看來是好解決的為什麼我們只要依照原基法的規定將部落公法人的認定的辭法與規範進而就可以推載所以"},{"start":29622.745,"end":29640.772,"text":"到目前為止就變成行政部門認定是公法人法院部門認定不是公法人的一個窘境那我的意思是說就已經20年過去了有沒有辦法可以讓它加快或者說有沒有可以歸咎的地方為什麼一直都停擺在那裡"},{"start":29643.696,"end":29662.353,"text":"這背後的成因我不是很清楚還有一個法律是關於我們原住民健康的我們大家都知道我們為什麼要推原住民健康法因為我們現在平均裡面大概差了目前主流社會還在差七歲左右那之前當然經過了很多的努力"},{"start":29663.013,"end":29685.195,"text":"當然平均裡面也不是單一項可以解決的不過就原住民健康法在112年5月26號通過到目前為止兩年過去它的第二條第二項它有指定機構要專責單位來開始籌設可是目前為止也是毫無動靜那這樣我們是不是可以指責中央主管機關"},{"start":29687.815,"end":29706.213,"text":"當然站在我們現行的法律制度底下我們有多元的管道去促使執法主管機關去踐行這個法律的規範的議制例如說非正式的陳情跟請願的管道"},{"start":29707.062,"end":29726.501,"text":"那正式的法律的途徑,這就是陳如剛跟委員報告的。有的時候法律真的很漂亮,不過就是一直擺在那裡沒有用。所以我們要,你身為大法官,我說如果以後身為大法官,我們要怎麼把這些很好的法案來落實?你的建議,有沒有具體建議?"},{"start":29727.833,"end":29738.041,"text":"如果以大法官的職責而言當這樣的一個消極立法或者是行政不作為真的足以強度到違憲的狀態"},{"start":29740.885,"end":29762.498,"text":"我們目前大法官運作的實務我們會在主文裡面預知科與立法者或行政部門依解釋的意旨一個是原紀法二十年過去一個是原檢法兩年過去我怕他也跟原紀法一樣躺在那裡躺了好多年"},{"start":29763.158,"end":29790.694,"text":"所以我們就是擔心的部分就是這樣那你的任期是8如果說你有幸成為大法官任期是8年我想8年以後如果有機會再提問你的話我不希望這個結果還是一樣的所以我們希望能夠如果你身為大法官可以給我們一些方向讓我們知道說未來把這個法律要怎麼來執行最近我有去南投縣地利村一個咕咕山採礦的一個問題"},{"start":29793.015,"end":29805.083,"text":"當天我收到的一個消息就是說他們7月5號要舉行部落的一些抗議活動因為他們在6月29號通過了知情同意也就是以131比88票同意採礦不過"},{"start":29810.191,"end":29833.285,"text":"當地的年輕人或者是在外生活的族人回去就是要去質問說知情同意知多少情同了什麼意族人真的知道嗎所以這樣的一個類似很粗糙的一個做法等於是強行通過了採礦同意採礦不過我們就看這個歷程來說他去年8月24號舉行也舉行了"},{"start":29835.887,"end":29858.608,"text":"這個所謂的同意結果是反對票比同意票多也就是說他是沒有辦法結果還不到一年的時間又開會那我說他一定是背後一個很大的經濟利益他不斷的要去推這個知情同意他其實在這個同意之前還有三月份還有辦過一次留會因為人數不足的問題"},{"start":29859.625,"end":29885.651,"text":"所以当这个利益大到一个程度的时候,这个知情同意权是不是应该是一个专者单位来弄,而不是小小的一个承办人来弄,然后呢,结果该公告的人没有公告,该通知的人没有通知,然后呢,目前他们那个,目前的,同意的一个单位的是户,而不是人,是不是可以全权代表所有族人的想法,我觉得这是可以值得商榷的。"},{"start":29887.133,"end":29910.234,"text":"就你的看法來說這個自行同意我們尤其是原住民基本法第21條你覺得是不是應該更周延一點我支持委員的這個方向就是說諮商同意權自行同意權我們21條委員剛剛所提到的這個個案其實我們在台東也遇到過"},{"start":29912.24,"end":29940.332,"text":"部落裡面的一群人做了同意另外一群人跳出來覺得我的意見沒有被採納根本沒有討論所以目前在行政法院針對這個是有訴訟案件的也就是說部落會議的內部衝突那從立法面來講諮商同意其實是以部落自決為立法的核心宗旨"},{"start":29940.953,"end":29960.786,"text":"所以它的關鍵是依照傳統慣習跟原住民族的自治從這個角度去出發當然如果它弱於少數人被控制又回到原住民自治的問題所以我的意思就是說剛才那個知情同意它的頻率是不是太頻繁了"},{"start":29961.266,"end":29979.48,"text":"本來應該是如果說就這樣來看的話已經這一年已經三次了如果他強行規範就是說應該明定他的只要不同意應該是兩年兩年內不得再申請執行同意權不然部落一天到晚被召集就是為了財團的利益在那邊"},{"start":29981.303,"end":29996.77,"text":"鬥爭,那有的人我不知道是怎麼樣或者是被摸了頭,結果他本來是反對變成同意,可是我覺得要有一個timing,你不能沒有多久又想要來推翻之前所謂的不同意的一個"},{"start":29998.576,"end":30011.095,"text":"這個大概跟公投法的設計有點類似不過基本上這是主管機關立法形成自由在執法的部分那當然如果主管機關針對這個部分不作為"},{"start":30014.76,"end":30042.162,"text":"當然在現行的憲政體制之下往上一層就是大院等於立法形成權可不可以考慮在相關適當的法律透過意見的表達看看這個部分有沒有修法我相信部落他們還是會提出他們的救濟看是什麼樣的一個程序來弄接下來就是我之前有拜讀到你的論文就是原住民保留地權利設定的地方權責劃分"},{"start":30044.403,"end":30070.596,"text":"剛剛好我們台東一個鄉發生了一個類似登記不實或者說冒名登記諸如此類的事情鄉長就要被提出罷免後來整體的結果6月24日台東縣政府就去調查發現他們強調是行政疏失未查有違法情勢來做一個類似像總total"},{"start":30071.436,"end":30092.153,"text":"我看到你的一個結論就是說在部落公法人實行之前實行原住民保留地無償取得所有權的取得規劃由直轄市縣市政府主管享有立方納入絕大多數原住民所組成的鄉鎮市區公所原住民保留土地權利審查委員會必要的參與機制也就是土審會我們所說的"},{"start":30094.301,"end":30119.429,"text":"然後可是現在你也希望說說不定這些曾經的昙花一線可以回來變成是主導的單位鄉公所鄉鎮區公所可是現在有一個問題就是如果這些土神會的委員都是鄉長的人是不是就會產生一些弊端然後有些鄉比如說仁愛鄉或者是比較大的鄉他甚至比彰化縣還要大"},{"start":30120.629,"end":30143.107,"text":"那這麼大的一個領地,可是圖神委就是那麼幾個人,他怎麼會了解很遙遠的地方的事情?所以主人的建議就是說,這個部落應該是以部落為單位,而不是以鄉為單位,它的透明度一定要夠,不然這個之前紛紛擾擾,不知道好幾個月的時間,連續都是海端鄉的事情,"},{"start":30143.988,"end":30154.357,"text":"所以我希望就是說以後如果你有幸當大法官的時候就原住民保留地這個部分我希望你之前有研究過我希望你再提出一些你的看法出來"},{"start":30155.464,"end":30180.586,"text":"是 謝謝委員的鼓勵那元寶地 各位有人如果看到我這個您揭露的這一段其實前面有一個預設的前提就是在公法人化之前那我也蠻認同剛剛委員您所說的是不是有可能讓部落本身多參與這個有關元寶地的相關的所有權取得的意見"},{"start":30182.888,"end":30203.779,"text":"其實原保地本來就是保護保障原住民族的生計所以適時的而且高比例的去納入原住民族自己的意見我覺得這個是一個符合原保地設計的地方意志所以基本上這個方向我也是支持的"},{"start":30206.192,"end":30222.472,"text":"就針對富裕的部分我還是要提出我的想法來問你一下就是我們現在財化法這個說後來我們中央不給我們一般性補助款的話你覺得有沒有危險一般性補助款"},{"start":30224.753,"end":30252.472,"text":"一般性補助款是根據財化法地方制度法的規定為了橫貧地方的發展所給予的一種補助款的項目那這成如我剛剛在回覆其他委員的質詢時我所提到的一貫的立場原則上一般性補助款的發給中央有裁量權"},{"start":30253.854,"end":30282.699,"text":"但是不代表這個裁量權完全無限制他如果因為一般性的補助款未給予而導致地方自治團體自治事項難以推行時那這個時候在憲法的層次來看他可能就會去危及地方自治被憲法作為制度性保障的一個界面"},{"start":30283.672,"end":30305.013,"text":"在這樣的一個諸多要件該當的情況之下我就會認為這個時候中央他的裁量是收縮到零的狀態也就是說他就有義務對地方收支短差的部分透過一般補助款的方式給予補助"},{"start":30306.67,"end":30331.999,"text":"OK 最後幾分鐘我再問你一下關於那個威瑪憲法的問題就是說你曾經我看到你對威瑪憲法都是用萬劫不復這四個字在形容它那也就是說它有緊急權跟主動解散國會加這個兩項權利那反觀我們現在在國會一年多來所經歷的這些事情"},{"start":30334.446,"end":30345.05,"text":"總統有沒有擴全一個傾向呢?好,我原問了一個難度蠻高的政治的問題。目前台灣的這個國會跟"},{"start":30354.096,"end":30370.266,"text":"還有府之間的關係當然直接來跟委員報告直接的關聯性是一個政黨政治的運作的正面跟負面的結果那有沒有或權"},{"start":30374.895,"end":30403.932,"text":"我自己觀察到的 實質上我當然不在其中我很難跟委員做評論但是目前看起來的還是行政院我個人的感受就有到 因為為什麼呢以前1919到1933這14年裡面他解散七次國會他已經使用250次對不對那我們現在已經不斷的被復印然後不斷要被釋憲在一年裡面已經復印七次了"},{"start":30404.366,"end":30428.703,"text":"那我覺得他是不是也是變相的可以去說他是不是也是在用兩個權力緊急權跟主動解散國會可是我們現在是用視線跟富裕這樣的兩把武器在制衡國會是不是也有這方面的一個疑慮我才會講說會不會走到萬劫不復你所說的這四個字"},{"start":30430.943,"end":30458.622,"text":"謝謝委員比較具體的這個提問就複義而言我個人認為那是憲政設計上面關於政治解決的途徑那這個部分我認為沒有那能不能不斷地提起憲法訴訟誠如其他被提名人在答覆的回答一樣它基本上只要符合受理的要件憲法作為政治之法"},{"start":30459.422,"end":30464.466,"text":"憲法法庭有時候其實也很難去阻絕這樣從政治紛爭轉變成法律紛爭的正義問題"},{"start":30486.581,"end":30511.898,"text":"好 謝謝盧委員也謝謝被提名人張教授報告全院委員會對大法官被提名人詹振榮詢答部分到此為止謝謝被提名人列席答詢另外有關各黨團對被提名人所提書面問題及被提名人答覆之電子檔列入公報記錄"},{"start":30513.892,"end":30532.426,"text":"報告全院委員會針對司法院院長、副院長及五位大法官被提名人之資格及是否事任相關事項均於審查完略本案作以下決議提報院會以記名投票表決現在散會"}]}},{"id":"163124","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163124","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b55eba05c1fe9d356e71d587566aeaab6aabffe2a991c72a2235d1795ffdf2ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"16:38:06 - 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名人或者是截至目前為止自己作為學術工作者的這個社會經驗來講相距真的是很遠"},{"start":216.488,"end":226.574,"text":"這個恐怕是一個事實認定的問題我還是要突顯告訴你說我們目前看到的司法不公的狀態"},{"start":227.932,"end":256.92,"text":"那接下來我們講到原住民自治那原住民自治這個法律是在陳水扁總統時代通過的2005年2月10號到現在已經整整20年如果我們就原住民自治的法條關於有三個也就是說應該是預期意願然後保障原住民主平等地位的自主發展實行原住民主自治第五條就是說每年要編列預算好20年過去有沒有編列沒有"},{"start":257.6,"end":279.429,"text":"第六,如果這次全憲發生爭議的時候應該由總統府召開,也就是說這個位階擺得很高,可是從公佈日到現在沒有進行,也就是說現在還說是部落公法人士在事辦的階段,而且還沒有開始事辦。所以如果就這樣的一個,"},{"start":281.537,"end":307.389,"text":"這樣的一個狀況來講我是不是要問你說公部門有沒有瀆職有沒有違憲這個問題好謝謝委員的問題這個原住民自治尤其是原基法裡面確實目前我們在規範的原來的良法美意據我的理解跟我們在原住民自治行政的推展上面確實有一段很大的落差"},{"start":309.03,"end":332.415,"text":"那有沒有立法帶墮進而導致或者是說行政帶墮進而導致違憲的情勢今天這個時間可能無法容許我詳細跟委員報告不過我可以跟委員分享的是部落公法人其實我們到目前為止行政法院穩定的見解"},{"start":333.291,"end":351.198,"text":"都不認為原民會所公布的那些是公法人其實這個問題在我看來是好解決的為什麼我們只要依照原基法的規定將部落公法人的認定的詞法與規範進而就可以推載所以"},{"start":353.493,"end":371.52,"text":"到目前為止就變成行政部門認定是公法人法院部門認定不是公法人的一個窘境那我的意思是說就已經20年過去了有沒有辦法可以讓它加快或者說有沒有可以歸咎的地方為什麼一直都停擺在那裡"},{"start":374.467,"end":393.124,"text":"這背後的成因我不是很清楚還有一個法律是關於我們原住民健康的我們大家都知道我們為什麼要推原住民健康法因為我們現在平均裡面大概差了目前主流社會還在差七歲左右那之前當然經過了很多的努力"},{"start":393.764,"end":415.946,"text":"當然平均裡面也不是單一項可以解決的不過就原住民健康法在112年5月26號通過到目前為止兩年過去它的第二條第二項它有指定機構要專責單位來開始籌設可是目前為止也是毫無動靜那這樣我們是不是可以指責中央主管機關"},{"start":418.566,"end":436.957,"text":"當然站在我們現行的法律制度底下我們有多元的管道去促使執法主管機關去踐行這個法律的規範的議制例如說非正式的陳情跟請願的管道"},{"start":437.816,"end":457.253,"text":"那正式的法律的途徑這就是陳如剛跟委員報告的有的時候法律真的很漂亮不過就是一直擺在那裡沒有用所以我們要我們身為大法官我說如果以後身為大法官我們要怎麼把這些很好的法案來落實你的建議有沒有具體建議"},{"start":458.584,"end":468.794,"text":"如果以大法官的職責而言當這樣的一個消極立法或者是行政不作為真的足以強度到違憲的狀態"},{"start":471.636,"end":493.259,"text":"我們目前大法官運作的實務我們會在主文裡面預知科與立法者或行政部門依解釋的意旨一個是原紀法二十年過去一個是原檢法兩年過去我怕他也跟原紀法一樣躺在那裡躺了好多年"},{"start":493.9,"end":521.462,"text":"所以我們就是擔心的部分就是這樣那你的任期是8如果說你有幸成為大法官任期是8年我想8年以後如果有機會再提問你的話我不希望這個結果還是一樣的所以我們希望能夠如果你身為大法官可以給我們一些方向讓我們知道說未來把這個法律要怎麼來執行最近我有去南投縣地利村一個咕咕山採礦的一個問題"},{"start":523.763,"end":544.11,"text":"當天我收到的一個消息就是說他們7月5號要舉行部落的一些抗議活動因為他們在6月29號通過了知情同意也就是以131比88票同意採礦不過當地的年輕人或者是在外生活的族人回去就是要去質問說"},{"start":545.891,"end":565.176,"text":"知情同意知多少情同了什麼意族人真的知道嗎所以這樣的一個類似很粗糙的一個做法等於是強行通過了採礦同意採礦不過我們就看這個歷程來說他去年8月24號舉行也舉行了"},{"start":566.637,"end":589.359,"text":"這個所謂的同意結果是反對票比同意票多也就是說他是沒有辦法結果還不到一年的時間又開會那我說他一定是背後一個很大的經濟利益他不斷的要去推這個知情同意他其實在這個同意之前還有三月份還有辦過一次留會因為人數不足的問題"},{"start":590.376,"end":616.405,"text":"所以当这个利益大到一个程度的时候,这个知情同意权是不是应该是一个专者单位来弄,而不是小小的一个承办人来弄,然后呢,结果该公告的人没有公告,该通知的人没有通知,然后呢,目前他们那个,目前的,同意的一个单位的是户而不是人,是不是可以全权代表所有主人的想法,我觉得这是可以值得商榷的。"},{"start":617.884,"end":640.972,"text":"就你的看法來說這個自行同意我們尤其是原住民基本法第21條你覺得是不是應該更周延一點我支持委員的這個方向就是說諮商同意權自行同意權我們21條委員剛剛所提到的這個個案其實我們在台東也遇到過"},{"start":642.991,"end":671.083,"text":"部落裡面的一群人做了同意另外一群人跳出來覺得我的意見沒有被採納根本沒有討論所以目前在行政法院針對這個是有訴訟案件的也就是說部落會議的內部衝突那從立法面來講諮商同意其實是以部落自決為立法的核心宗旨"},{"start":671.704,"end":691.537,"text":"所以它的關鍵是依照傳統慣習跟原住民族的自治從這個角度去出發當然如果它弱於少數人被控制又回到原住民自治的問題所以我的意思就是說剛才那個知情同意它的頻率是不是太頻繁了"},{"start":692.017,"end":710.237,"text":"本來應該是如果說就這樣來看的話已經這一年已經三次了如果他強行規範就是說應該明定他的只要不同意應該是兩年兩年內不得再申請知情同意權不然部落一天到晚被召集就是為了財團的利益在那邊"},{"start":712.054,"end":727.501,"text":"鬥爭,那有的人我不知道是怎麼樣或者是被摸了頭,結果他本來是反對變成同意,可是我覺得要有一個timing,不能沒有多久又想要來推翻之前所謂的不同意的一個"},{"start":729.327,"end":741.659,"text":"這個大概跟公投法的設計有點類似不過基本上這是主管機關立法形成自由在執法的部分那當然如果主管機關針對這個部分不作為"},{"start":745.522,"end":760.708,"text":"當然在現行的憲政體制之下往上一層就是大院等於立法形成權可不可以考慮在相關適當的法律透過意見的表達看看這個部分有沒有修法"},{"start":760.888,"end":786.736,"text":"我相信部落他們還是會提出他們的救濟看是什麼樣的一個程序來弄接下來就是我之前有拜讀到你的論文就是原住民保留地權利設定的地方權責劃分剛剛好我們台東也發生一個一個鄉發生一個就是類似登記不實或者是說就是冒名登記這些諸如此類的事情就被鄉長就要被提出罷免"},{"start":787.296,"end":811.853,"text":"那後來整體的結果,6月24號台東縣政府就去調查發現他們是強調是行政疏失,未查有違法情勢來做一個類似像總total那我看到你的一個結論就是說在部落公法人施刑之前,實行原罪名保留地無償取得所有權的取得規劃有直轄市縣市政府主管享有"},{"start":813.214,"end":840.097,"text":"另一方納入絕大多數原住民所組成的鄉鎮市區公所原住民保留土地權利審查委員會必要的參與機制也就是土審會我們所說的然後可是現在你也希望說說不定這些曾經的昙花一線可以回來變成是主導的單位鄉鎮區公所可是現在有一個問題就是如果這些土審會的委員都是鄉長的人"},{"start":841.388,"end":850.191,"text":"是不是就會產生一些弊端然後有些香比如說仁愛香或者是比較大的香它甚至比彰化線還要大"},{"start":852.081,"end":873.858,"text":"這麼大的一個領地,可是圖神委員就是那麼幾個人,他怎麼會了解很遙遠的地方的事情?所以主人的建議就是說,這個部落應該是以部落為單位,而不是以鄉為單位,它的透明度一定要夠,不然這個之前紛紛擾擾,不知道好幾個月的時間,連續都是海端鄉的事情,"},{"start":874.739,"end":885.098,"text":"所以我希望就是說以後如果你有幸當大法官的時候就原住民保留地這個部分我希望你之前有研究過我希望你再提出一些你的看法出來"},{"start":886.235,"end":911.334,"text":"是 謝謝委員的鼓勵那元寶地 各位有人如果看到我這個凝結錄的這一段其實前面有一個預設的前提就是在公法人化之前那我也蠻認同剛剛委員您所說的是不是有可能讓部落本身多參與這個有關元寶地的相關的所有權取得的意見"},{"start":913.635,"end":934.504,"text":"其實原保地本來就是保護保障原住民族的生計所以適時的而且高比例的去納入原住民族自己的意見我覺得這個是一個符合原保地設計的立法意旨所以基本上這個方向我也是支持的"},{"start":936.943,"end":953.245,"text":"就針對富裕的部分我還是要提出我的想法來問你一下就是我們現在財化法這個說後來我們中央不給我們一般性補助款的話你覺得有沒有危險一般性補助款"},{"start":955.504,"end":983.223,"text":"一般性補助款是根據財化法地方制度法的規定為了橫貧地方的發展所給予的一種補助款的項目那這成如我剛剛在回覆其他委員的質詢時我所提到的一貫的立場原則上一般性補助款的發給中央有裁量權"},{"start":984.605,"end":1013.464,"text":"但是不代表這個裁量權完全無限制他如果因為一般性的補助款未給予而導致地方自治團體自治事項難以推行時那這個時候在憲法的層次來看他可能就會去危及地方自治被憲法作為制度性保障的一個界面"},{"start":1014.423,"end":1035.767,"text":"在這樣的一個諸多要件該當的情況之下我就會認為這個時候中央他的裁量是收縮到零的狀態也就是說他就有義務對地方收支短差的部分透過一般補助款的方式給予補助"},{"start":1038.181,"end":1062.756,"text":"最後幾分鐘我再問你一下關於那個威瑪憲法的問題就是說你曾經我看到你對威瑪憲法都是用萬劫不復這四個字在形容它那也就是說它有緊急權跟主動解散國會加這個兩項權利那反觀我們現在在國會一年多來所經歷的這些事情"},{"start":1064.858,"end":1068.305,"text":"总统有没有扩取一个倾向呢"},{"start":1071.363,"end":1095.833,"text":"委員問了一個難度蠻高的政治的問題目前台灣的國會跟院還有府之間的關係當然直接來跟委員報告直接的關聯性是一個政黨政治的運作的"},{"start":1097.193,"end":1118.126,"text":"正面跟負面的結果那有沒有或全我自己觀察到的實質上我當然不在其中我很難跟委員做評論但是目前看起來的還是行政院我個人的感受就有到因為為什麼呢"},{"start":1119.383,"end":1138.489,"text":"以前1919到1933這14年裡面他解散七次國會他已經使用250次對不對那我們現在已經不斷的被複製然後不斷要被實現在一年裡面已經複製七次那我覺得他是不是也是變相的也有"},{"start":1139.554,"end":1159.453,"text":"可以去說他是不是也是在用兩個權力緊急權跟主動解散國會可是我們現在是用視線跟富裕這樣的兩把武器在制衡國會是不是也有這方面的疑慮我才會講說會不會走到萬劫不復你所說的這四個字"},{"start":1161.714,"end":1189.361,"text":"謝謝委員比較具體的這個提問就複義而言我個人認為那是憲政設計上面關於政治解決的途徑那這個部分我認為沒有那能不能不斷的提起憲法訴訟誠如其他被提名人在答覆的回答一樣他基本上只要符合受理的要件憲法作為政治之法"},{"start":1190.161,"end":1195.204,"text":"憲法法庭有時候其實也很難去阻絕這樣從政治紛爭轉變成法律紛爭的正義問題"},{"start":1217.332,"end":1236.647,"text":"好 謝謝盧委員也謝謝被提名人張教授報告全院委員會對大法官被提名人詹振榮詢答部分到此為止謝謝被提名人列席答詢另外有關各黨團對被提名人"}]}},{"id":"163118","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163118","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b9b9a17665d0994c6e71d587566aeaab60b29e8d345297626f2f4c7b5986f42ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:05:08 - 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謝謝主席 那有請被提名陳教授 謝謝請被提名的人答詢"},{"start":17.583,"end":33.059,"text":"陳教授早安我還是直接稱呼您陳教授我想今天在一連串的跟您的對話我今天是最後一個根據您過往的經驗我們看到您還有環境法的專長所以等一下我們會討論這個部分但是我今天想要先從憲政的議題開始談起來"},{"start":35.622,"end":60.858,"text":"我們在釋字499號裡面有提到一個非常重要的事情就是所謂的修憲界限那目前我自己個人認為在之前的這個公聽會上我也提出現在的立法院似乎變成台灣整個憲政危機的源頭整個亂源我認為是在立法院怎麼說過去這一整年當中在整個立法院不管是國會擴權法案或者是相關毀憲亂政的提案"},{"start":65.501,"end":81.606,"text":"預算的提案其實我認為實質上都已經干擾到行政院的行政同時他也讓整個憲政體制遭受到非常大的迫害那當然有後續的釋憲案或者是相關的復驗都表現出每一個院當中各自所能夠"},{"start":82.786,"end":110.188,"text":"所能夠有的主張因此我認為如果回過頭來看這一整年來的立法院也就是國會代表全國人民意見這個立法院我認為是導致於整個國家出現憲政危機的亂源那當然這是我的見解我並沒有要您在這裡表示意見那我之所以提出這個見解是想要跟您討論我們提到我剛提到所謂修憲界憲論這件事情也就是說本質上重要性的條文"},{"start":110.828,"end":134.102,"text":"不得任意修改我想這是很重要的主張對嗎是的好那如果我們一般人都有這樣的嘗試更何況是立法委員所以我想要回過頭來請教關於在4至499號解釋當中有提到所謂權力分立還有制衡的原則這件事情也非常重要所以第一個問題想要請教您的看法第一個假設假設因為"},{"start":134.682,"end":158.549,"text":"目前呢有在野黨團他們提出要成立所謂的修憲委員會修憲委員會的主張他們目前我說的是到目前為止他們提出的是要廢止監察院台灣過去是一個五權分立的國家我不知道如果我們用4-499號來看這件事情也就是他打算廢止監察院難道台灣從此以後要變成一個四權分立的國家或者是變成所謂3.5權"},{"start":159.909,"end":176.451,"text":"因為我們就不知道後續要怎麼處理這原本五權分立突然如果把監察院廢掉變四權或是三點五權你怎麼看這件事情報告委員我的學者到目前一貫的見解是一致的權力制衡權力分立並沒有說是三權或五權"},{"start":176.852,"end":195.395,"text":"不管從英文或者是從中文來講都可以但是一個很堅持的我在書上也一直強調了有多少民意基礎就要擁有多少憲法上的權力擁有多少憲法上的權力就要負起多大的責任這三個是一個等邊三角形"},{"start":195.936,"end":219.821,"text":"那至於怎麼設計那就是修憲機關的權限那基本上我是尊重修憲機關只要符合這樣的一個基本原則任何三權五權基本上並不是一種障礙另外是我們台灣特別有所謂用一個權用一個願來說明事實上在西方國家也並沒有所謂的完全所謂的行政權"},{"start":220.561,"end":247.656,"text":"行政權外還是有很多的獨立機關也就像我們說要在行政院下設所謂公平會或者國家通訊傳播委員會這種獨立機關因為變成一個院下面有一個獨立機關在西方國家有很多並不是一個院內閣或者另外設立一個獨立機關都是有可能的所以我們可能在拘束於憲法上面就是院這個字非一個院下所有都必須在歸屬一個院下面的這個憲政機關"},{"start":248.817,"end":271.727,"text":"才能夠設立那這個設立又有可能會是獨立機關可能跟這個院新政權有所本質不符所以之前也有發生過所謂國家通訊傳播委員會的這個組成視線的問題等等這些我想這些就是很多前面的很多委員的詮詢我本來要講都沒有時間講就是因為整個的憲政體制"},{"start":273.194,"end":301.913,"text":"原本憲法1947年通過那部憲法是仿照威馬憲法除了他民主中立性不夠不足夠來捍衛這個自由民主憲政秩序以外其他的設計基本上我是蠻尊重張君邁先生在這一方面的一個設計但是因為七次修憲除了取得民主正當性也就是說因為這部憲法後來因為動員勘亂時期臨時條款以後就失去了他的民主正當性後來回復了有了民主正當性以後呢"},{"start":302.293,"end":318.941,"text":"基本上在這個過程當中七次修憲是枝枝結結的修憲這個是造成我們今天今天會造成這樣的混亂我認為是制度的問題而不是人的問題以上報告您剛剛說的這些混亂其實也是我本來好需要問你不過你都已經說了"},{"start":319.841,"end":345.017,"text":"因為除了這個混亂其實我們難以解決而且很難有全民的共識之外其實還有另外一些議題也就是沒有涉及到修憲的部分因為我們我剛說的499是處理修憲的部分但沒有涉及修憲的部分其實還是有權利分立的問題例如說第一個修訂法律癱瘓憲政機關的運作也就是在立法院這一屆提出的限訴法我不知道你有沒有關心相關的細節跟進度第二個"},{"start":347.038,"end":361.785,"text":"刪除大量預算導致於憲政機關難以運作例如說像從去年的年底行政院的中辦或者是監察院的業務費在相關預算案當中被大量的煽動甚至煽到一塊甚至還有機關被煽到負的"},{"start":362.225,"end":384.107,"text":"好這個部分再來第三個是修訂法案的部分大幅擴張自身的權利我在指的是立法院某一些立法委的同仁們做的事情也就是我剛講這三個情況他不涉及修憲但是在權利分立上他確實的影響各自運作的獨立性甚至癱瘓相關的可能性我想要就這個部分也請教您的意見是"},{"start":386.889,"end":398.246,"text":"這些狀況基本上都是行政跟立法兩者之間對很多意見的不同所形成的事實上基本上這應該不是所謂的憲法的法律層次的問題"},{"start":400.849,"end":423.34,"text":"而是屬於政治層次的問題所以剛才一直我提到的就是剛才委員會委員垂詢一直在提到大法官在520號解釋裡面也一直認為如果涉及到兩院之間的政治意見不同的話應該透過憲法增修條文第三條第二項模式去做處理那雙方如果能夠達到一定的共識"},{"start":423.98,"end":449.906,"text":"或者得透過一定的解決的話那當然就沒有問題那基本上這個我們在大法官基本上是不去碰觸這個問題所以說520號只提供這樣子的一個憲法的一個規定而已所以在這裡我跟委員報告基本上我還是基本上遵守大法官520號這樣子的一個見解來由行政跟立法兩者去做相關的這個政治解決問題的"},{"start":450.706,"end":474.56,"text":"理想上當然我也很希望達到剛剛陳老師您所說的就行政跟立法如果有好的協商機制、協調機制當然我們就不希望引起所謂的性政危機甚至要走到訴訟、釋憲這條路不過我想因為現在情況確實不是這樣不過我剛剛很開心聽到您的見解是這樣但是我認為在很多政治上的議題它最後不得不走入憲法法庭的時候其實還是要仰賴大法官您的見解貝庭銘這邊"},{"start":476.221,"end":502.798,"text":"那另外我想要提到關於權力分立的部分我剛已經講完可是另外一個部分我想要聚焦在司法權和立法權的互動上因為身為大法官的被提名人假設未來您真的擔任大法官我相信會不斷的碰上這個議題尤其是在這個情況後續的延續上第一個我想要問有關於憲法訴訟法的爭議當中其實有一個爭議點又是關於國會自律"},{"start":503.718,"end":526.337,"text":"還有國會自治的部分自治當然很重要但自律更重要如果我們按照釋字342號的解釋見解如果立法過程當中明顯存在重大瑕疵大法官得宣告其無效我不知道就您的見解來說所謂明顯重大瑕疵的構成要件可能會有哪些"},{"start":527.701,"end":554.52,"text":"明顯重大瑕疵是從行政法理論裡面有關就如同很多學者在用一個最簡單的解釋就是如同刻在額頭上這麼明顯的一個痕跡就是違憲的那在585號或者是這次憲判9號大法官基本上都認為這是一個國會自律並沒有重大明顯瑕疵那基本上我是尊重的"},{"start":555.523,"end":573.569,"text":"好這個部分我們剛說的意見也就是你你說尊重但是所謂明顯重大瑕疵如果有不同大法官之間的見解那當然我們沒有辦法在這邊細緻的討論完不過我剛認為所謂明顯重大瑕疵回到立法院的自律跟自治這件事情因為立法院是要對全國人民交代的"},{"start":573.909,"end":589.1,"text":"那當然他可能有政治部分的見解但對人民交代完成一個良善的立法過程我認為還是相對重要的那除了我剛說立法院自律跟自治的部分接下來我想要問過去不論是在行政"},{"start":589.58,"end":607.046,"text":"在司法在監察其實都面臨立法權想要透過立法或是透過預算的方法來影響機關的正常運作我再次想要跟您請教這個問題你認為相關機關應該要如何處理來避免自己被立法權癱瘓例如說"},{"start":608.747,"end":624.117,"text":"我知道行政院在過去這一年當中面對立法院很多荒謬的提案行政院進行了復議跟釋憲這都是合法的可以做的事情對嗎接下來監察院在預算的部分他們也提案釋憲好這可能您之後還沒有遇到"},{"start":624.557,"end":652.515,"text":"但是司法院的部分目前遇到的狀況是人數不足而沒有辦法受理案件目前只能勉為其難受理限訴法的釋憲案那如果當初司法院沒有受理司法院大法官會不會持續被癱瘓也就是說您剛剛說的相關的意見您都尊重相關的協調如果可以進行當然是最好可是實質上在過去這一整年當中我們在立法院影響到的狀況已經是我剛剛舉的這些例子了齁"},{"start":652.935,"end":656.045,"text":"那我這邊是不是可以請您表達一下您的意見跟看法"},{"start":656.992,"end":684.819,"text":"報告委員 事實上剛才很多委員隨時表達很多但是最後一句話我想再表達的就是都沒有機會讓我表達 感謝委員讓我有這個機會因為限訴法大法官已經受理了 細數在憲法法庭這是 我想對於一個我們法律人來講我們不應該針對已經細數的案件 特別作為被提名人來做任何表達個人意見的看法 這個是"},{"start":686.209,"end":706.975,"text":"剛才好幾位委員一直問我一直沒有機會回答這件事情所以要請委員見諒這是我們法律人比較嚴謹的做法就已經細數了如果現在還沒有細數可能可以表達個人意見或學術立場但是已經細數了這個法官不予我們必須要去遵守特別作為大法官的被提名人跟委員報告"},{"start":708.356,"end":731.241,"text":"好但是剛監察院的部分或司法院的那個行政院部分沒有關係我想你沒有辦法方便在這裡表達您個人的見解如同你剛說但是我認為這是後續假設您真的擔任大法官之後這確實會是您很重要的燙手山芋但我想我們在這裡還是要表達我們的關切因為整個立法院的亂象已經持續一年多我認為這件事情非常干擾立法院正常運作"},{"start":731.641,"end":760.655,"text":"也非常干擾到國人對於立法院的觀感甚至也干擾到所有行政機關對於人民相關的很多措施跟政策的推廣那另外一個最後想要問您就是無論過去大法官解釋的時代或者是現在的憲法法庭通常在大法官做成解釋之後有時候會直接宣告說在一定時間之後相關的立法就會失效給立法者做立法形成的空間有時候是直接宣告無效"},{"start":761.115,"end":771.981,"text":"或者是直接認定應該要如何做如何做那我想相關案例我有寫在這邊我不知道您如何看待這其中的差異是不是會有所謂大法官造法的情況發生"},{"start":774.724,"end":790.834,"text":"大法官只能補充憲法之不足或立法的不作為但是最終如果涉及到法律的立法方面還是要尊重立法院的立法形成空間希望能夠依照大法官的意旨來做法律的制定"},{"start":791.454,"end":808.106,"text":"那有關立即失效跟有一定時間的基本上是考慮到法的安定性的問題也就是說如果說馬上立即失效使所有的法秩序完全沒有辦法遵照有一個依據的法律來作為的話"},{"start":808.646,"end":823.613,"text":"那恐怕會影響到整個法制區的安定所以基本上會有一定時間的控制但一定時間的控制會有一個問題就是說那是不是代表在這段時間這個已經被宣告違憲的法律還繼續有效呢"},{"start":824.033,"end":850.745,"text":"所以後來大法官也補充做了解釋所有有關機關必須依大法官解釋的意志來做出相關的判決也好或者相關的行政處分也好基本上是這樣子的一個模式來形成所謂的定期失效或者立即失效等等這些內容那當然還有其他的相關細節技術問題在這裡就不再去做進一步的說明"},{"start":850.865,"end":877.968,"text":"好 因為時間有限了不過為什麼我要特別問這一段呢因為確實在現在的政治氛圍或是公民的氛圍當中確實大家會對大法官做出的相關決議有非常非常多的解讀跟討論但是您剛剛把相關的立場說得非常清楚我想後續再遇到也許有一些政治爭議上的題目的時候大家就可以回過頭來參考陳教授您今天的發言到底是當下立即失效的意義比較好"},{"start":878.548,"end":896.627,"text":"還是有相關的立法的實現我想還是要回到您剛剛說的法學專業的部分還有就是所謂的法案法案定性的部分好接下來要談另外一個也是最近大家在看大法官會討論到大法官跟民意之間的關係我想這個相關的議題你應該都非常清楚例如說"},{"start":897.208,"end":923.586,"text":"大法官在討論案件的時候他當然會有個人的見解還有個人的法理見解做成判斷做成論斷這個我們當然都絕對尊重可是過去就會有人認為大法官沒有民意基礎或者是有人會說大法官在審理案件的時候沒有考量民意我想就您自己怎麼看大法官專業法理跟民意之間的關係還有民意會不會作為您未來"},{"start":930.209,"end":949.694,"text":"基本上大法官所要堅持的是憲法的價值體系跟價值內容但是也不能不考慮我們憲法第二條國民主權原則特別是我們看到國民法官法規定裡面就是基據因為國民主權原則所以要顧及到國民的法律情感"},{"start":950.114,"end":971.528,"text":"及價值內容來形成這樣的一個法律制度所以在兩者兼顧之下去做出對憲法秩序最好的一個決定剛才有很多委員垂詢我一直沒有辦法講說是說我一直堅持我以前的見解現在難道不堅持嗎不是的我們學者的見解可以海闊天空寄予學術自由"},{"start":972.108,"end":1001.358,"text":"但是作為大法官要經的見解必須要堅持維護憲政秩序的價值理念為整個憲政秩序最好的選擇來做出決定所以我剛才要表達是這個但是很多委員都沒有讓我表達這一塊所以我這邊還再強調一遍大法官雖然有自己的相關的學術見解跟內容等等這些但是呢如果作為大法官以後一定要為整個憲政秩序最好的一個方向"},{"start":1002.058,"end":1010.807,"text":"來指出 來做說明而不是背離本身的一個學術的良知或價值我想這是必須在這邊補充跟委員報告的"},{"start":1011.348,"end":1039.794,"text":"所以也就是適當的理解跟傾聽民意也可以作為您後續相關做成決定的參考項目之一對嗎 您的意思是這樣一定是這樣因為我剛才要報告但是委員沒有機會讓我報告在德國的法院判決裡面在判決的前頭一定是以德意志國民之名做成這樣一個判決要兼顧兩者那兼顧怎麼兼顧兩者呢正如剛才委員垂詢的"},{"start":1041.074,"end":1066.596,"text":"所謂499號的憲法核心的價值理念這是必須兼顧第二個就是國民主權的理念這兩者如何兼顧德國基本法雖然不是用499是以德國基本法79條第三項來說明這個憲法核心的這個部分以及在判決的時候用國民主權讓兩者能夠去橫平來做出對憲法最佳的一個選擇的判斷"},{"start":1068.317,"end":1088.212,"text":"你一定很納悶為什麼我要一直問你這件事情因為即將在8月23號我們會有一個公投其實之前我在公聽會的時候我就提過我也不斷在跟在野黨協商的時候提醒在野黨說公投結果的法律未接跟大法官的解釋或憲法法庭的判決未接是不一樣的"},{"start":1089.073,"end":1114.676,"text":"如果回到這個前提上我也想要請教您之後我們所會遇到的公民投票的結果如果跟大法官的解釋或憲法法庭的判決未接當然是不一樣的可是如果兩者發生見解衝突的時候該怎麼處理之前其實就有類似的事情就是釋字748號跟2018年的公投我想這個案例您是清楚的可是未來還會有更多的公投我不知道您怎麼看"},{"start":1115.626,"end":1143.955,"text":"報告委員大法官的解釋或者判決基本上是具有憲法拘束的效力所以基本上我們公投法也有相關的要件譬如說涉及到憲法的規定等等是不能夠公投的這個完全要視各案來決定是否有涉及憲法的規定或者涉及到憲法效力的問題如果有的話基本上這個公投的這個做成基本上是有比較有大的異議的"},{"start":1144.775,"end":1158.648,"text":"那不過至於怎麼樣去刑訴這個部分還是立法者本身對公投法的相關的一個刑訴當然立法者在刑訴過程當中一定要遵守憲法的一個明文的規定以及憲法價值秩序的一個決定"},{"start":1160.472,"end":1186.256,"text":"好 我只剩一分鐘不過剛剛您所說的確實在過去的相關案例跟未來發生的公投我們確實要各案各案來看可是當然如果公投是由立法者所提起的那回到立法者必須要遵守立法的相關的秩序來看可能在立法院過去這一年當中已經失衡了但是如果未來公投提案是由公民朋友公民團體所發起的那他們所造成的公投投票結果"},{"start":1186.696,"end":1205.911,"text":"我再次強調如果跟大法官的解釋或憲法法庭的判決有差異的時候我相信未來也會是您的燙手山芋之一對嗎是的好那我只剩20秒不過我就沒辦法再問環境法的不過我想今天就這些討論希望後續我們在進行同意權投票的時候我們可以一切順利"},{"start":1206.631,"end":1222.329,"text":"不過今天很謝謝您在很多法律上的見解包含權力分立還有修憲的部分修憲界限的部分因為我們當然要面臨政治的困境但我認為所有政治的困境都還是要扣回整體社會發展對於台灣民主社會更好的好謝謝陳委員謝謝被提名人"}]}},{"id":"163123","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163123","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292bee761d3fc166cc52e71d587566aeaab6aabffe2a991c72a2f9f7472ed2d1f4185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"16:17:32 - 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行政法還有地方自治領域的專長部分那如果沒有問題我想我們今天非常開心也非常期待可以跟您進行一些意見上的交流那首先我想要談一個關於法庭直播這個議題"},{"start":33.453,"end":56.285,"text":"因為過去這一整年當中一年多以來在立法院有非常多的迴憲亂政的立法還有預算提案我在早上跟另外一位被提名討論的時候我們也討論過但是在法庭直播這一題我想要跟您討論在憲法八十條的部分有明定法官須超出黨派之外依據法律獨立審判"},{"start":57.466,"end":82.805,"text":"不受任何干涉對嗎是好這個是我們憲法明定的精神那我想要跟您討論直播法庭直播算不算是一種對法官的干涉法庭直播是法庭公開的一種機制我不排除法庭直播可能會造成法官在執行職權時內在的心理壓力"},{"start":86.994,"end":95.89,"text":"那這個部分潛在的可能性或許會去影響到他審判原來的新政這個我不排除"},{"start":96.789,"end":117.533,"text":"好過去如果按照您這個說法確實在法官受到這個公開直播的壓力的時候確實有可能您剛說的心理上的壓力影響到他的心證事實上我認為我剛剛只是用法官作為一個例子在相關的法庭關係當中其實不是只有法官"},{"start":118.053,"end":142.274,"text":"有可能受到影響如果我們來看整個案件的話其實有非常多人會受到影響包含檢察官包含證人包含鑑定人因為目前在立法院所通過的版本當然我個人是不認同這個版本在立法院所通過的版本裡面呢規定是由被告申請開啟這個所謂的法庭公開直播"},{"start":142.814,"end":166.769,"text":"或者是法院依照職權來裁定必須進行直播我實在是想不通有什麼樣的律師會希望自己的代理人他在法庭公開直播的時候要在大家的面前曝露所有他的案件的細節我也難以想像到底有什麼樣的情況"},{"start":167.89,"end":194.038,"text":"除了符合社會公益跟重大案件我們有必須有必要進行直播之外我難以想像當然我的投影片上面放的是鄭振前委員但我並不想以他個人的個案作為討論的基礎我只是提出一個荒謬的點在這個立法院三讀通過之後馬上鄭振前委員自己的案子他竟然就要求說他不要公開直播"},{"start":194.838,"end":211.107,"text":"我甚至認為他自己在按三讀表決通過的時候他都忘記他根本不知道原來是要被告申請而他身為這個案子的被告他可能沒有想到也或者他很擔心法院依職權裁定他就要直播"},{"start":211.687,"end":236.336,"text":"那當然他的案子只是讓我們看見這個法案的荒謬之處但更關鍵的是我想要跟您討論證人鑑定人檢察官到底對於他們的隱私對於他們在法院上所做的陳述還有所有的資訊後續的直播會產生哪些問題除了我剛說的當然我還有覺得還有另外一個問題也非常的我認為非常的可怕在整個直播過程當中"},{"start":237.932,"end":258.284,"text":"如果後續有心人刻意操作把某一些人的說話片段後製剪接加上字幕而且那個剪接可能不是時序順的剪接他可能刻意的在不同的時序點前後倒置刻意的穿插製造錯假的訊息而這些影片他就已經流傳出去了"},{"start":258.564,"end":283.111,"text":"他就已經就算我們知道影片可以下架但網路這件事情是沒有辦法保證百分之百的他可能會造成非常多後續的影響恐懼焦慮這些事情而所有的人可能在這個案件當中在這個直播影片當中被指指點點被不當的評論跟對待所以我才要跟您討論在憲法的高度您如何看待法庭直播後續所可能造成跟帶來的一些問題"},{"start":285.418,"end":301.823,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我認為這個是一個我們在法院組織法經由大院三讀通過後我們必須去嚴正面對的後續問題那如果對於三讀的條文沒有誤解的話"},{"start":304.005,"end":331.41,"text":"他其實還是有待於司法院去制定相關的執法我覺得委員剛剛所提到的這一些問題至少我們以比較進程的去填補各方權益的衡量可以某程度上在執法裡面去呈現出來像我在問卷的回答裡面我有去提到後製再利用怎麼樣去"},{"start":332.31,"end":353.998,"text":"避免委員剛剛所提到的那個疑慮當然這個尊重司法院的法規執法的制定權但是我覺得可以想像的是如果日後要以之作為另案訴訟是否具有證據能力的素材這個其實一定要面對"},{"start":355.27,"end":374.324,"text":"我們有沒有辦法透過執法的制定,將任何重製的影帶的全部跟片段,讓它不具有證據能力,以官方的版本為在我們法律上唯一認定的有權證據。"},{"start":376.209,"end":392.361,"text":"那至於說我覺得比較麻煩從憲法的高度來看就是我不是拿來做另案訴訟的證據之用而是我就是在網路上作為我的言論之一或者是所謂的言論自由的形式"},{"start":394.344,"end":412.634,"text":"這個恐怕我覺得也必須要去面對,任何變更的重置,尤其是以個案為前提的直播後的這些錄影錄音,我覺得要嚴格管制。它跟一般的言論自由的行使是不一樣的。"},{"start":414.452,"end":430.081,"text":"這個是我目前比較粗淺想到在不撼動原有的三讀通過的條文底下我們如何讓這個能夠盡可能的圓滿達到憲法人權保障的橫平的一個方案"},{"start":431.038,"end":451.57,"text":"我很謝謝貝提名人你剛提到幾個非常重要的觀點包含第一個是他跟言論自由其實不同的如何在相關執法的保障底下確保人權的這個部分但是我要問我們自己來看我們當時在黨團協商的時候我們其實就主張這很有可能造成對司法的施壓"},{"start":452.59,"end":462.796,"text":"你怎麼看這件事情就施壓的部分確實有可能成如我剛回答委員的第一個問題他確實有可能造成內在的壓力"},{"start":463.86,"end":488.393,"text":"所以有沒有可能在目前我們的通過的條文裡面剛剛委員也提到被告的申請跟法院依職權的裁定我們有沒有可能在個案裡面對這個部分在法官職權行使上面採比較嚴格的限縮使用的方式盡可能讓"},{"start":490.193,"end":496.275,"text":"這樣的一個情況 除非是認為沒有那些疑慮才准予"},{"start":497.324,"end":520.806,"text":"其實事實上現在的法庭就已經有錄影跟錄音了在有必要的時候可以申請使用這些東西所以我認為法庭直播在這件事情上其實是逾越了原來的所謂錄音錄影然後有需要才申請所以我今天特地把這個題目拿出來跟被庭人您討論但我相信後續不管是司法的執法的相關配套或者是"},{"start":521.587,"end":545.583,"text":"到最後我們要如何確保剛剛說言論自由的部分施壓司法的部分還有人權的部分我認為都會是未來您可能會面對的燙手山芋好那我們接下來看第二個題目也是我們辦公室一直都在關心的關於司法少年的議題確實在這幾年當中我們看到司法少年不論是詐欺詐騙案這個大家可能覺得"},{"start":546.944,"end":571.385,"text":"青少年容易上鉤容易成為犯罪集團要挾持的對象或者是把他們當成是工具人的對象或者是之前在前年的時候有相關的擱淨案都讓大家重新意識如何認識如何對待如何協助司法少年那我想要談一下關於少事法第83條之一的這個議題"},{"start":572.666,"end":590.091,"text":"因為這個議題在戈井案之後在很多詐騙案猖獗之後在很多孩子被當成車手之後很多人開始會過來看邵氏法83條之一的修法是在說什麼這個當時的修法在民國65年的時候是首次新增這個條款這個條款是說五年內"},{"start":591.371,"end":614.9,"text":"未受管訓處分或刑之宣告就可以徒消前科好先幫你做一個前情說明目的就是希望鼓勵孩子們少年們改過自新然後不要再去觸碰新的法律後來呢逐漸的修法逐漸的修法慢慢改變成現在是說只要一定的期間就會徒消前科"},{"start":615.74,"end":639.186,"text":"可是我剛說的前情是在戈井案還有非常多的詐欺詐騙案之後呢大家開始問要不要來限縮或是調整這個所謂突銷前科的條件所以司法院在去年提出修正草案目前也通過院會目前的寫法是說少年在三年內未在故意犯罪才能突銷前科"},{"start":639.986,"end":660.893,"text":"就這個部分,我認為從民國65年到近年來的改革,到去年提出最新版本的修法,確實時空環境背景不一樣。青少年們所接受的社會環境、學校環境、家庭社區環境,都從相對單純變得複雜、多元、而且多變,並且快速。"},{"start":661.873,"end":685.293,"text":"連我們大人都不見得可以應付這麼快速變換頻繁多元的樣態更何況是這些青少年因此我認為在這麼複雜的環境變遷的情況下這樣子的修法您怎麼看從五年新增然後到一定時間到現在變成三年法律的修正本來就是要與時俱進"},{"start":688.004,"end":712.736,"text":"這樣子的一個微調去呼應我們目前青少年尤其是在炸棄犯的車手的部分所做的一個回應基本上我認為把它朝向有條件的限縮的塗銷這個基本立場我是支持的更何況你要不要先喝水沒關係謝謝"},{"start":717.199,"end":743.315,"text":"主席可以幫我暫停一下嗎謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝主席更何況我們在歷經這多年以來我們的青少年的成長新式成熟度完全沒有辦法跟六十幾年以來的狀況相比這也就是為什麼我們之前"},{"start":744.772,"end":755.92,"text":"這有點岔開話題就是我們18歲為成年人的那個修憲案換句話說我們如果把這個考量進去的話適時的去檢討法規範的與時俱進這個立場我是支持的"},{"start":762.355,"end":779.923,"text":"就這個立場我可以理解因為您剛剛說到一句話就是現在我說的這麼多變這麼快速多元文化情況下您認為現在青少年的心智成熟年齡跟心智成熟度應該遠遠超過也就是我剛說明過65年的時候將近50年前"},{"start":780.683,"end":796.54,"text":"但我在現場也看到另外一個困境當然我認為這個是有不同的觀點的如果我們回來看少事法或者是看兒童權利公約或者是在看我們所謂的盡可能避免少年進入司法系統的這個脈絡"},{"start":798.422,"end":814.682,"text":"其實當然是希望給犯罪的青少年機會也希望站在兒童權利公約的角度看待國際人權公約尤其是兩公約國內法治化之後我們如何看待這件事情我認為也是後續我們真的必須要花時間討論"},{"start":816.184,"end":835.587,"text":"也就是說我認同你剛剛說的孩子們的心智成熟度變高我們理當可能就認為他們對於法理的認識對於自己行為的約束跟把行為跟法理之間的關係做一個合理的連結我們彷彿認為這個是孩子們必須具備的能力跟素養"},{"start":836.508,"end":863.734,"text":"但偏偏相當的困境是當這些好人們在進化的時候其實壞人們也在進化不要說司法少年他們誤入歧途或是他們對社會認識不深其實更多的大人也不見得具備相關的法學素養法理知識或者是把法學跟生活合在一起所以我們也看到有非常多大人類似的案件所以我認為我還是期待有沒有當然後續的事情可以再討論"},{"start":864.594,"end":887.303,"text":"不過我還是希望有沒有在未來如果您真的可以擔任大法官有沒有機會有沒有意願在憲法法庭的判決中把我剛剛所提到的兒童權利公約也好或者是國際人權公約相關國際公約精神放入您在做相關判決的內容或者是帶入這個精神"},{"start":888.403,"end":917.784,"text":"是 謝謝委員的鼓勵那事實上我們目前不管是兩公約也好兒童人權公約也好或者是其他消除婦女這個一切歧視其實在我們的若干憲法法庭的裁判裡面都頁抑 援引那如果我未來出任大法官這個是不可避免的職責也必須要參考國際的人權標準這個無庸置疑"},{"start":919.024,"end":934.162,"text":"我非常期待看見這個部分既然我們剛講到要把國際人權公約精神納入其實另外一個也很重要在做相關判決的時候也就是民意這件事情因為民意確實是這幾年來很多人對於大法官"},{"start":935.243,"end":959.4,"text":"相對容易提出的質疑大家會說大法官沒有民意基礎或者是說大法官審理案件的時候沒有考量民意我很想請教您在您未來如果擔任大法官民意會不會是您做成決定的重要參考項目回委員兩個問題第一個大法官到底有沒有民意基礎"},{"start":961.652,"end":986.114,"text":"我自己的解讀根據我們憲法關於大法官的提名跟同意權行使的規範架構大法官在這個從提名到經由大院行使同意權它其實就是一個職權行使民主正當性的賦予接下來接手的"},{"start":987.251,"end":1007.968,"text":"與立法委員不同的是基於大法官憲法上的職責接手的是憲法八十條的獨立審判但是如同我剛剛在口頭報告所說獨立審判並不是完全漠視民意因為民意在某程度上"},{"start":1008.649,"end":1026.839,"text":"它也是彰顯社會大眾對於我們現今憲法意識及人權正義觀的一種解讀。偏偏憲法訴訟又不可避免地涉及到利益衡量跟衝突。"},{"start":1027.796,"end":1051.742,"text":"那我們怎麼樣做利益衡量跟衝突呢當然是縱觀多元因素不是只有規範不是只有法例包含目前人民對這樣的一個人權侵害他的一般觀感是什麼我們當然在視線工作裡面也必須不可規避要予以著量"},{"start":1053.126,"end":1078.156,"text":"如果按照這個前提意思就是說您會把民意作為在做出相關判決重要參考精神之一對嗎是聽起來是這樣那所以回過頭時間有限我想跟你談一談那關於公投公投他某個部分確實就直接代表了民意那當然不論是票數的比例懸殊或多或少他確實表達呈現了某些民意的選擇"},{"start":1079.156,"end":1105.142,"text":"但是公投結果的法律未接他跟大法官解釋或是憲法法庭所做成的判決結果未接是不一樣的對嗎是好那在這個前提底下請問被提名人您認為公民投票的結果跟大法官解釋或憲法法庭判決的法律未接一旦在見解上發生衝突您會怎麼處置跟考慮像這樣的議題謝謝委員"},{"start":1108.519,"end":1136.258,"text":"如果大法官的判決裡面沒有容認給立法者有去做核限性調適的修法空間那在這裡即便我們用直接民意的公投方式來呈現多數主流的民意恐怕也沒有辦法以直接民主去取代大法官的判決反之"},{"start":1137.355,"end":1166.455,"text":"如果大法官的判決他會回去要求立法者依裁判意旨去修法那這個時候公投就擁有創制立法原則以民意的展現來讓大院行使職權時作為主要的修法的參考依據所以還是要看公投他的議題在個案當中"},{"start":1167.369,"end":1190.419,"text":"大法官那邊的主文如何下而定您的回答非常的清楚但是我時間有限我就不再多問那不過我們很期待在後續的投票當中我們可以看見你可以順利的出任大法官為我們解決非常多人民現在非常期待的很多事件的問題都還沒有辦法解決好嗎好 以上非常謝謝您今天的回答也謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝被提名的"},{"start":1197.031,"end":1197.313,"text":"下一位請盧憲一委員詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（16時17分）謝謝主席。有請被提名人，謝謝。"],["主席：請被提名人詹教授答詢。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝被提名人。過去您的學養是來自於憲法、行政法還有地方自治領域的專長，那如果沒有問題，我今天非常開心、也非常期待可以跟你進行一些意見上的交流。首先，我想要談關於法庭直播的這個議題，因為在過去這一年多以來在立法院有非常多毀憲亂政的立法還有預算提案，我早上在跟另外一位被提名人討論的時候，我們也有討論過，但是就法庭直播這一題，我想要跟您討論。憲法第八十條有明定：「法官須超出黨派之外，依據法律獨立審判，不受任何干涉。」對嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個是我們憲法明定的精神，那我想要跟您討論直播，法庭直播算不算是一種對法官的干涉？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：法庭直播是法庭公開的一種機制，我不排除法庭直播可能會造成法官在執行職權時內在的心理壓力，這個部分有潛在的可能性或許會影響到他審判原來的心證，這個我不排除。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果按照您這個說法，法官在受到這種公開直播的壓力時確實有可能像您剛剛所說的，會因為心理上的壓力而影響到他的心證。事實上，我剛剛只是用法官作為一個例子，在相關的法庭關係當中，其實不是只有法官有可能受到影響，如果我們來看整個案件的話，有非常多人會受到影響，包含檢察官、證人、鑑定人。對於這個目前在立法院所通過的版本，當然我個人是不認同這個版本，但是在立法院所通過的這個版本裡面規定是由被告聲請開啟所謂的法庭公開直播，或者是法院依照職權來裁定必須進行直播，我實在是想不通有什麼樣的律師會希望自己的代理人，在法庭公開直播的時候，要在大家面前暴露他所有的案件細節，我也難以想像到底有什麼樣情況，除了符合社會公益和重大案件，有必須、必要進行直播之外，我難以想像。當然，我的投影片上面放的是鄭正鈐委員，但我並不想以他個人的個案作為討論的基礎，我只是提出一個荒謬的點，在立法院三讀通過之後，鄭正鈐委員竟然馬上就要求自己的案子不要公開直播，我甚至認為他自己在按三讀表決通過的時候，都忘記或根本不知道原來是要被告聲請，而他身為這個案子的被告，他可能沒有想到，也或者他很擔心法院依職權裁定就得直播，當然他的案子只是讓我們看見這個法案的荒謬之處。","但更關鍵的是，我想要跟您討論的是證人、鑑定人、檢察官，到底對於他們的隱私，對於他們在法院上所做的陳述，還有所有的資訊，後續的直播會產生哪些問題。除了我剛剛說的，當然還有另外一個問題，我認為非常的可怕，在整個直播過程當中，如果後續有心人刻意操作，把某一些人的說話片段後製、剪接、加上字幕，而且那個剪接可能不是順時序的剪接，他可能刻意的在不同的時序點前後倒置、刻意穿插、製造錯假訊息，而這些影片就已經流傳出去了。就算我們知道影片可以下架，但網路這件事情是沒有辦法保證百分之百的，它可能會造成非常多後續的影響，如恐懼、焦慮這些事情，而所有的人可能在這個案件的直播影片當中被指指點點，被不當的評論和對待。所以我才要跟您討論，在憲法的高度，您如何看待法庭直播後續所可能造成跟帶來的一些問題？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員的提問，我認為這是一個在法院組織法經由大院三讀通過後，我們必須嚴正面對的後續問題。如果對於三讀條文沒有誤解的話，它其實還是有待於司法院制定相關子法。我覺得委員剛剛所提到的這一些問題，至少我們以比較近程地填補各方權益的衡量，可以某程度上在子法裡面呈現出來。像我在問卷的回答裡面有提到，後製再利用怎麼樣避免委員剛剛所提到的那個疑慮。當然，這要尊重司法院的法規、子法的制定權，但是我覺得可以想像的是，如果日後要以之作為另案訴訟，是否具有證據能力的素材，這個其實一定要面對。我們有沒有辦法透過子法的制定，讓任何重製影帶的全部和片段不具有證據能力，以官方的版本為在法律上唯一認定的有權證據。至於我覺得比較麻煩的是，從憲法的高度來看，我不是拿來做為另案訴訟的證據之用，而是在網路上做為我的言論之一，或者是所謂言論自由的行使，這個恐怕也必須要去面對，任何變更的重製，尤其是以個案為前提直播後的這些錄影、錄音，我覺得要嚴格管制。它與一般言論自由的行使是不一樣的，這個是我目前比較粗淺想到，在不撼動原有三讀通過的條文底下，我們如何讓這個能夠盡可能地圓滿，達到憲法人權保障衡平的一個方案。"],["陳委員培瑜：我很謝謝被提名人，你剛剛提到幾個非常重要的觀點，包含第一個，它與言論自由其實是不同的，如何在相關子法的保障底下確保人權。但是我要問，當時在黨團協商，我們就主張這很有可能造成對司法的施壓，你怎麼看這件事情，就施壓的部分？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：確實有可能。誠如我剛剛回答委員的第一個問題，它確實有可能造成內在的壓力，所以在目前通過的條文裡面，剛剛委員也提到被告的聲請跟法院依職權的裁定，我們有沒有可能在個案，對於這個部分在法官職權行使上面，採比較嚴格地限縮適用的方式，盡可能讓這樣的情況，除非認為是沒有那些疑慮，才准予。"],["陳委員培瑜：事實上，現在的法庭就已經有錄影跟錄音，在有必要的時候，可以聲請使用這些東西，我認為法庭直播在這件事情上，其實是逾越原來的錄音、錄影有需要才聲請的規定，所以我今天特地把這個題目拿出來跟被提名人討論。但我相信後續不管是司法的、子法的相關配套，或者是到最後我們要如何確保剛剛說言論自由、施壓司法及人權，我認為未來都會是您可能會面對的燙手山芋。","接下來看第二個題目，也是我們辦公室一直都在關心的關於司法少年的議題，確實在這幾年當中，我們看到司法少年，不論是詐欺、詐騙案，大家可能覺得青少年容易上鉤、容易成為犯罪集團挾持的對象，或者把他們當成是工具人的對象，或者是在前年的割頸案，都讓大家重新意識如何認識、如何對待、如何協助司法少年。","我想要談一下關於少事法第八十三條之一的議題，因為這個議題在割頸案之後、在很多詐騙案猖獗之後、在很多孩子被當成車手之後，很多人開始回頭來看少事法第八十三條之一的修法是在說什麼？當時的修法在民國65年是首次新增這個條款，這個條款是說五年內未受管訓處分或刑之宣告，就可以塗銷前科，先幫你前情說明。目的就是希望鼓勵孩子們、少年們改過自新，不要再去觸碰新的法律，後來逐漸地修法、逐漸地修法，慢慢改變成現在只要一定期間就會塗銷前科。可是我剛剛說的前情是在割頸案，還有非常多的詐欺、詐騙案之後，大家開始問要不要來限縮，或是調整塗銷前科的條件；所以司法院在去年提出修正草案，院會也通過，目前的寫法是少年在三年內未再故意犯罪，才能塗銷前科。就這個部分，我認為從民國65年到近年來的改革、到去年提出最新版本的修法，確實時空、環境、背景不一樣，青少年們所接受的社會環境、學校環境、家庭社區環境都從相對單純變得複雜、多元、多變並且快速，連大人都不見得可以應付這麼快速變換、頻繁多元的樣態，更何況是這些青少年。因此，我認為在這麼複雜環境變遷的情況下，從新增五年，然後到一定時間，到現在變成三年，您怎麼看？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：法律的修正本來就是要與時俱進，這樣的微調去呼應目前青少年，尤其是在詐欺犯的車手部分所做的回應，基本上我認為把它朝向有條件的、限縮的塗銷，這個基本立場我是支持的，更何況……抱歉……"],["陳委員培瑜：你要不要先喝水，沒關係。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：主席可以幫我暫停一下嗎？謝謝主席。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主席。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：更何況在歷經這麼多年以來，青少年的成長、心智成熟度完全沒有辦法跟民國六十幾年以來的狀況相比，這也就是為什麼我們之前……這有點岔開話題啦！就是18歲為成年人的那個修憲案，換句話說，我們如果把這個考量進去的話，適時地檢討法規範的與時俱進，這個立場我是支持的。"],["陳委員培瑜：就這個立場我可以理解，因為您剛剛說到一句話，就是我說的現在這麼多變、這麼快速、多元文化的情況下，您認為現在青少年的心智年齡跟心智成熟度應該遠遠超過，也就是我剛剛說民國65年、將近50年前，但我在現場也看到另外一個困境，當然我認為這個有不同的觀點。如果我們回來看少事法，或者是看兒童權利公約，或者是在看所謂的儘可能避免少年進入司法系統的這個脈絡，其實當然是希望給犯罪的青少年機會，也希望站在兒童權利公約的角度看待國際人權公約，尤其是兩公約國內法制化之後，我們如何看待這件事情，我認為也是後續我們真的必須要花時間討論的。也就是我認同你剛剛說的，孩子們的心智成熟度變高，我們可能理當就認為他們對於法理的認識、對於自己行為的約束，跟把行為與法理之間的關係合理的連結，我們彷彿認為這個是孩子們必須具備的能力跟素養，但偏偏相當的困境是，當這些好人們在進化的時候，其實壞人們也在進化，不要說司法少年誤入歧途或是他們對社會認識不深，其實更多的大人也不見得具備相關的法學素養、法理知識，或者是把法學跟生活合在一起，所以我們也看到有非常多大人類似的案件。當然後續的事情可以再討論，不過我還是希望未來如果您真的可以擔任大法官，有沒有機會、有沒有意願在憲法法庭的判決中，把我剛剛所提到的兒童權利公約也好，或者是國際人權公約相關國際公約的精神放入您在做相關判決的內容，或者是帶入這個精神？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員的鼓勵。事實上，目前不管是兩公約也好，兒童人權公約也好，或者是其他消除婦女一切歧視公約，其實在若干憲法法庭的裁判裡面都業已援引。如果我未來出任大法官，這個是不可避免的職責，也必須要參考國際的人權標準，無庸置疑，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然我非常期待看見這個部分。既然我們剛剛講到要把國際人權公約的精神納入，其實另外一個也很重要，在做相關判決的時候，也就是民意這件事情，因為民意確實是這幾年來很多人對於大法官相對容易提出的質疑，大家會說大法官沒有民意基礎，或者是說大法官審理案件的時候沒有考量民意，我很想請教您在您未來如果擔任大法官，民意會不會是您做成決定的重要參考項目之一？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：回委員兩個問題，第一個，大法官到底有沒有民意基礎？我自己的解讀，根據憲法關於大法官的提名及同意權行使的規範架構，大法官從提名到經由大院行使同意權，它其實就是一個職權行使民主正當性的賦予，接下來接手的，與立法委員不同的是，基於大法官憲法上的職責，接手的是憲法第八十條的獨立審判。但是如同我剛剛在口頭報告所說，獨立審判並不是完全漠視民意，因為民意在某程度上也是彰顯社會大眾對於現今憲法意識及人權正義觀的一種解讀，偏偏憲法訴訟又不可避免的涉及到利益衡量跟衝突，那我們怎麼樣做利益衡量跟衝突呢？當然是綜觀多元因素，不是只有規範，不是只有法理，包含目前人民對這樣的人權侵害的一般觀感是什麼，當然在釋憲工作裡面我們也不可規避，要予以酌量。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果按照這個前提，意思就是說您會把民意作為在做出相關判決的重要參考精神之一，對嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來是這樣。所以回過頭來，時間有限，我想跟你談一談關於公投，公投某個部分確實就直接代表了民意，不論票數的比例懸殊或多或少，它確實表達、呈現了某些民意的選擇，但是公投結果的法律位階跟大法官解釋或是憲法法庭所作成的判決結果是不一樣的，對嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，在這個前提底下，請問被提名人，您認為公民投票的結果跟大法官解釋或憲法法庭判決的法律位階一旦在見解上發生衝突，像這樣的議題，您會怎麼處置跟考慮？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員，如果大法官的判決裡面沒有容認給立法者去作合憲性調適的修法空間，在這裡即便我們用直接民意的公投方式來呈現多數主流的民意，恐怕也沒有辦法以直接民主取代大法官的判決；反之，如果大法官的判決是回去要求立法者依裁判意旨修法，這個時候公投就容有創制立法原則，以民意的展現作為大院行使職權時主要的修法參考依據，所以還是要看公投的議題在個案當中，大法官解釋的主文如何下而定。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，您的回答非常地清楚，但是我時間有限，我就不再多問。不過我們很期待在後續的投票中，可以看見您可以順利出任大法官，為我們解決非常多人民現在非常期待的很多還沒有辦法解決的釋憲問題，好嗎？好。以上，非常謝謝您今天的回答，也謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝被提名人。","下一位請盧縣一委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"163122","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b4b0e6c97acb4e0a8e71d587566aeaab6aabffe2a991c72a291b1f0c7435980ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"15:57:07 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謝謝委員那我有補充說明的機會我不論是在口頭報告或者是回覆各黨團的問卷裡面我都提到這樣的一個觀點"},{"start":320.781,"end":339.919,"text":"維持審判獨立它是一個主觀上的確信如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的我擔任學術研究工作者擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷"},{"start":342.984,"end":370.757,"text":"我的著作應該也不算少其實這個就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪是不是在論述當中提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯對不對有傾向於特定的政治立場所以換言之你可以保證在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所行述的這些原則跟標準會被帶到如果你有性就任大法官的話他會成為這樣一個準則我可以這樣解釋嗎"},{"start":373.133,"end":375.446,"text":"是的 我目前也是这样的一个看法"},{"start":375.882,"end":404.352,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來針對幾個因為現在這個憲法法庭好像這個越來越來越吃重了非常多的因為憲政爭議等等或者是其實他單純只是行政立法之間的一個僵局然後好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來做討論那既然立法院是民意的機關那這些相關的一些法案我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法首先我想請教一下這個被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法因為這我有特別做了一點點功課"},{"start":405.592,"end":421.215,"text":"政治大學的講堂上面,其實你有把這個當成一個案例,來跟學生來做研討跟說明其實這個簡單來說,在野黨大家都認為說我們增加了分配給地方政府的這樣一個裁員,有助於改善城鄉差距也好"},{"start":421.736,"end":435.861,"text":"或者是加強地方自治地方政府施政的效率等等這些好處就不再贅述那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫那最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式他們認為這個違反了憲法第147條"},{"start":439.242,"end":452.154,"text":"憲法第147條講說中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展對於評級是省那當然是用省這個字當然是因為它過去的時代脈絡但簡單來講其實就是對於地方政府應該要著於補助為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展應該著於補助它是一個原則性的規範"},{"start":457.557,"end":481.445,"text":"詹教授您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談關鍵爭議其實是說立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務嘛對不對只有碰到這條紅線的時候他可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的這樣一個狀況如果沒有碰到這條紅線對不對他理論上應該是事權之間的調和跟配套措施我這樣解釋這樣提問應該沒有問題對不對好那您覺得目前的狀況3700億要申請釋憲合理嗎"},{"start":488.1,"end":507.414,"text":"還是跟委員報告 其一就是這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭其二3700億或3100億它在實際上的各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色這恐怕是要精準的去一一盤點"},{"start":509.295,"end":525.846,"text":"很抱歉我也只能夠按照您剛所提出的一般性的指標跟您做回覆也就是說財政是數證之母所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動"},{"start":527.447,"end":543.265,"text":"這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次架空了他作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性如果這個底線沒有去碰到縱使他可能會有摯愛難行"},{"start":545.273,"end":572.955,"text":"但是摯愛難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的還有距離,好謝謝我們還是針對幾個指向的問題跟財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名來做一個探討第一個,這個您覺得這個決定中央跟地方的財政分配比例的這件事情它是不是行政權的專屬權力還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論"},{"start":574.338,"end":585.574,"text":"依照我們目前的法制設計立法權在這裡是居於一個先導的地位也就是說它可以制定一個框架立法"},{"start":586.294,"end":611.865,"text":"在這個框架範圍之下行政權可以在細部去做精準的細部分配對 因為它畢竟是一部法嘛 對不對所以立法權它當然有一定的角色嘛 謝謝那現在行政端主張財政運作困難您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了啦就是說具體來講到底怎麼樣叫財政運作困難 對不對這個還是說它其實只是一個行政效率跟事權分配的問題您目前"},{"start":613.103,"end":625.65,"text":"了解的狀況因為你認為還要經過精算跟分析所以你沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎例如說在某份問卷裡面有提到某個這個"},{"start":628.976,"end":654.174,"text":"監察院他對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除我不知道這個資訊對不對我今天談的是財政收支劃分法以目前來講重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計"},{"start":656.721,"end":685.988,"text":"我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正你也有做一下功課,謝謝我現在就討論這個事其實這就是權跟權事權的討論我們談到事權討論的這一部分請問事權的討論它應該是行政單位內部因為它是中央跟地方的分工的問題也許要參酌一些民意的要求所以立法院可能有角色你覺得司法院用大法官、市縣等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎?"},{"start":687.748,"end":702.549,"text":"呃陳儒剛剛跟委員報告如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮所以碰到底線才要出手嘛對不對我舉一個例子好了因為我們大概有具體的例子譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切通通劃到了地方政府"},{"start":703.47,"end":726.607,"text":"對不對 讓你中央本來一進的政策是完全沒有辦法推行那這個本席也同意嘛 對不對這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題就是您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候講到就是說中央行政權被架控的問題但今天如果只是改變分配的比例你中央還是有一定的數額可以做調度的時候請問有碰到紅線嗎如果按照委員的假設情況的話可能離違憲的距離還"},{"start":729.091,"end":745.011,"text":"還比較大對不對這我就跟貝提敏我們也交換一下意見以現在3700億來講他當然影響了跟過去相比中央當然要多分一份錢的到地方但你要講因為這樣他所有預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空這我想我講的應該不是假設啦"},{"start":745.672,"end":774.575,"text":"當然沒關係這個後面有詳細的數據這我想以遭公信是沒有問題的所以我還蠻目前為止還蠻欣賞目前被提名人的回答這個您如果是成為大法官在本案如果你有機會參與審理因為這個已經被提到市縣裡面您比較傾向立法權依法擴大地方財政主張這樣的正當性還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大的控管財務的自由我自己從事地方自治多年的教學"},{"start":775.902,"end":784.861,"text":"我自己向來的主張就是當我們在把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候"},{"start":786.874,"end":813.909,"text":"跟著錢其實也要下去的否則這就會讓有權無錢的窘境所以一個前提命題是假設我們的中央跟地方的權限劃分我們要盡可能的朝向優於地方的方向去位移的話我會認同錢要跟著下去好 謝謝"},{"start":815.598,"end":843.648,"text":"那再來就是大家非常關心的題目當然就是有關於死刑的存廢您在自傳上面表示說我們要嚴正的面對每一個申請事件的案件要妥適的尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或者是解決方案您自己個人的立場您支持廢除死刑嗎以目前的現況來講廢死我個人不支持"},{"start":844.738,"end":874.159,"text":"我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意的殺人罪的成立殺人罪的形成憲法的另外一個意味著有一條人命或者是數條人命的生命權被剝奪了所以死刑其實是一個權益調和後"},{"start":875.761,"end":886.036,"text":"國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案當然這個方案不是很古不變我們可以當"},{"start":887.202,"end":914.665,"text":"人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候或許到那個時機我們可以嚴正的考慮事實不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況所以換言之你認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前一定要兼顧司法公義性以及社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待對不對好 謝謝那目前"},{"start":915.888,"end":935.986,"text":"我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論取得社會的最大公約數然後再來做思考但問題是這樣喔憲判第八號其實已經判下去了嘛他們針對死刑的要件雖然他宣告死刑是合憲的但他其實加諸了非常多從我們民意代表的角度來看非常不合理的"},{"start":936.266,"end":956.992,"text":"各項邏輯包含各級審、各審級需要有一致判決的這樣子的一個制度創設而這樣子的一個標準其實並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文甚至是當初申請人的主張之中請問被提名人憲法法庭有無權力自行去創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制"},{"start":961.033,"end":985.978,"text":"這個問題我在回覆黨團的問卷裡面我有提到雖然站在人民的立場或是未來執行大法官職務的立場大法官的判決有拘束力這個我完全認同但是如果委員您要問我個人的意見我對於這個各省級一致決的這樣的一個"},{"start":987.834,"end":1015.781,"text":"憲法法庭的創設意見我是有一些比較不一樣的想法其實在憲判八的解釋理由書裡面有特別以並於指出這樣的方式去談論國法案件在那裡其實沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決他只要求三位的職業法官要一致決"},{"start":1017.523,"end":1039.855,"text":"那在判決的主文裡面其實也沒有彰顯這樣的職業法官一致決的話語他只說各省級一致決這個就是可怕的地方你們做出來因為是大法官法界的最高的榮譽其實你們未來如果做了大法官都掌握了非常非常大的話語權"},{"start":1040.782,"end":1063.591,"text":"哪怕他不是刑於判決主文或什麼他其實都有很有可能會影響整個法界大家的這樣子的一個思考的方向然後從而去影響實務上的判決那麼實務上來講這憲判八字號這出來之後你當然就看到越來越多有這樣的一個狀況包含什麼非罪嚴重之罪行未符合一字決等等的他其實就造成了社會很大的恐慌我們真的非常希望因為"},{"start":1064.071,"end":1090.347,"text":"如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情,大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式再來重新去改善這個有大法官造法疑慮的一個憲法判決這一部分我們希望如果您有幸可以成為大法官可以本於超然獨立跟您過去一貫的主張用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受維護司法公信力的方式來做思考這是本席給你的一個建議最後一點點時間我要問一個比較有趣的一個問題"},{"start":1091.988,"end":1108.929,"text":"這個前一段時間其實立法院有討論過一個議題一個概念我們現在這麼多的憲政衝突其實來自於到底誰是多數誰是少數所以我們現在的總統是百分之四十的選票就可以當選因為是選舉是一個這個殺咖嘟這樣子的一個情況那國會卻是嘲笑野大那當然就出現了到底"},{"start":1109.669,"end":1135.116,"text":"誰比較重要對不對就衍生了很多的憲政僵局曾經有人主張我們用修法的方式來引入比照法國總統二輪選舉那當然執政黨這邊就主張這個是一定違憲的那憲法正確條文第二條裡面他寫的說總統要一起登記並且以多數為當選可是這樣子的概念這樣的一個精神跟一輪投票跟二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎我想請教一下被提名人的看法"},{"start":1136.369,"end":1165.24,"text":"我個人的認為基本上還是取決於我們的總統副總統選罷法裡面目前的法律明定是相對多數決也就是說相對多數決的一組勝出那這個在大院的立法權的情況之下其實是可以去思考有沒有可能對這個當選的門檻反於他的公信力跟民主正當性的強化"},{"start":1165.98,"end":1194.515,"text":"再去做一個檢討換言之如果立法院經過了決議討論決議之後修法通過把它變成二輪投票制其實它並不會違背憲法的精神對不對因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數它其實都是多數我覺得憲法框架應該是一個相對大的一個範圍對憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻的規定所以如果真的立法院討論把它變成二輪投票它其實也是一個可以被思考的方案而且它不會違反憲法精神我可以這樣認定這是您的想法嗎"},{"start":1195.454,"end":1205.037,"text":"從國民主權的角度來講,我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之餘好,謝謝,以上是我針對被提名人的質詢,感謝您清楚的回答,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（15時57分）謝謝主席，詹被提名人有請。"],["主席：請被提名人。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：詹教授午安，辛苦了。今天針對大法官被提名人提一些問題，想跟您就教、跟您探討。首先是有關於司法改革的部分，根據TVBS今年5月15號公布賴總統就任周年的民調，司法改革是所有政策裡面滿意度最低的一項，只有30%的人認為是滿意的，而有高達58%的民眾其實是非常不滿意的。美麗島電子報在今年4月28號的民調，大概有59.3%的人認為，在司法的部分政府出現選擇性辦案的狀況，57.9%的人認為政治力介入檢調機關辦案，57.6%認為政治介入司法案件，差不多都有六成左右的民意對於現在臺灣司法的各項表現持非常高度質疑的狀況。司法改革的成效，您覺得推動到現在表現得如何？司法改革是不是應該要重視我們整體社會對於司法的信任程度？換言之，司法的公信力要如何確保？目前針對司法改革的表現，您是滿意的嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員的提問，司法改革的議題，其實幾十年來一直……"],["牛委員煦庭：很大。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，一直是一個問題。前面幾位被提名人其實也有回應它的成因何在，如果委員是問我個人的看法的話，當然司法改革不得不去考慮到民眾對司法的信賴，畢竟它是一個跟人民息息相關的事情，人民對於國王的貞操有所懷疑，後面的公權力行使其實都會受到撼動。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：所以我認同委員這樣的一個看法，司法改革當然要參酌民眾的可信賴性。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你認為要參酌民眾的可信賴性，那我們就針對民眾認為政治力介入司法這樣的一個狀況，稍微進行一下深入的討論。因為你在你的自傳裡面，我大概也拜讀了，你寫獨立審判其實不可退讓，這個其實是法律人非常重要的一個原則，不管是各級法官，上到憲法法庭，下到各級法院，如果出現了獨立審判被質疑、被破壞的狀況，其實就會出現司法公信力不足的狀況，那也連帶會造成非常多的災難。您認為現在的司法有獨立而且不受政治力影響嗎？您可不可以保證擔任大法官之後，自己或同僚不會受到政治力的影響？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我可以保證我自己不會受到政治力的影響，我沒有辦法幫其他的人來擔保，這個是我很誠懇地跟委員回復，至少我自己可控的部分，我可以在這裡保證。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實這個大概就是最抽象但是也最難回答的題目，我舉一個例子好了，比如說，上一次我們在進行大法官人事同意權的審查跟投票的時候，劉靜怡被提名人到最後其實是被民進黨也一起封殺，按照最後的票數結果來看，因為民眾黨是支持的，如果當初執政黨願意支持執政黨自己提出來的大法官人選，他其實是有辦法過關的，但後來執政黨黨團總召柯建銘說封殺的理由是因為他多次辱罵民進黨，如果支持他就要開除黨籍，這樣算不算是一種政治力的介入？您怎麼看待這樣的事情？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：大法官適格性的審查，我個人的解讀應該是專業知識、操守、風骨跟獨立性，除此以外，當然站在大院的立場，必須也要為選民來把關。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：但是應該還是環繞在那幾個因素，我覺得才是一個審查的核心標準。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我之所以會這樣問，也不是針對您個人，而是所有被提名的大法官在審查的時候，普遍上社會都會很擔心，尤其是現在的政治局勢是比較紛亂的，在這樣的情況之下，社會上都會擔心會不會到最後立法院通過的都是會配合政治期待的大法官，而不是獨立自主的大法官？這樣子的社會要求跟影響，總是有一些質疑，今天我們既然代表民意，就把這個東西如實來反映，請問在司法信任度很低這樣的環境之下，您個人未來如果有機會做大法官，如何確保自己的公正性？你能不能提個具體的例子或怎麼樣來做一下說明？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：好，謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會，我不論是在口頭報告或者是回復各黨團的問卷裡面，我都提到一個觀點：維持審判獨立是一個主觀上的確信，如何讓外界的人民能夠知道這個主觀上的確信確實是客觀可信的。我擔任學術研究工作者、擔任學校的老師超過20年的資歷，我的著作應該也不算少，其實這就是一個可檢驗的客觀標準，可以看我是不是有見解的擺盪，是不是在論述當中有傾向於特定的政治立場。"],["牛委員煦庭：提出具體有效的說法跟邏輯，對不對？所以換言之，你可以保證，在您過去教學的歷程中或曾經出版的著作中所形塑的這些原則跟標準會被帶到，如果你有幸就任大法官的話，它會成為一個準則，我可以這樣解釋嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是的，我目前也是這樣的看法。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，我們接下來針對幾個，因為現在憲法法庭好像越來越來越吃重了，非常多的憲政爭議等等，或者其實只是單純行政、立法之間的僵局，好像動不動都要上綱到憲法法庭來討論。既然立法院是民意機關，對於這些相關的法案，我們也希望可以了解一下被提名人的看法。","首先，我想請教一下被提名人針對財政收支劃分法的看法，因為我有特別做了一點點功課，您在政治大學的講堂上其實有把這個當成一個案例來跟學生研討跟說明。簡單來說，在野黨大家都認為我們增加了分配給地方政府的財源，有助於改善城鄉差距也好或者是加強地方自治、地方政府施政的效率等等，這些好處就不再贅述，那麼執政黨當然認為這個影響了中央施政的節奏跟計畫，最後他們採用的方法是用釋憲的方式，他們認為這個違反了憲法第一百四十七條。憲法第一百四十七條講說「中央為謀省與省之間的經濟平衡發展，對於貧瘠之省……」，這用「省」這個字當然是因為過去的時代脈絡，但簡單來講，其實就是對於地方政府應該要酌予補助，為了謀求縣與縣之間的經濟平衡發展，應該酌予補助，它是用原則性的規範。詹教授，您曾經在政治大學上課裡面就有談，關鍵爭議其實是立法權的修法會不會導致行政權因為財政的因素無法履行憲法義務，對不對？只有碰到這條紅線的時候，可能會上綱到變成用憲法法庭來解決的狀況；如果沒有碰到這條紅線，理論上應該是事權之間的調和及配套措施。我這樣提問應該沒有問題，對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那您覺得目前的狀況，3,700億要聲請釋憲合理嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：還是跟委員報告，其一就是這個案子已經繫屬在憲法法庭。其二，不論是3,700億或3,100億，它實際上在各憲法機關業務的執行上面扮演什麼樣的角色，這恐怕是要精準的一一盤點。很抱歉，我也只能按照您剛剛所提出的一般性指標跟您回復……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，您請說。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：也就是說，財政是庶政之母，所以財政會不會構成到違憲的狀況，我目前的基本立場是會不會去撼動法定的部分，這個法定包含憲法層次跟法律層次，架空了它作為一個憲法機關職權行使的本質性，如果這一個底線沒有去碰到，縱使它可能會有窒礙難行，但是窒礙難行跟財政危機與違憲其實是還有距離的。"],["牛委員煦庭：還有距離，好，謝謝。我們還是針對幾個財政收支劃分法指向的問題跟被提名人探討，第一個，您覺得決定中央跟地方財政分配比例的這件事情，它是不是行政權專屬權力？還是其實立法權也可以基於反映民意的過程之中來進行修正跟討論？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：依照我們目前的法制設計，立法權在這裡是居於先導的地位，也就是說，它可以制定一個框架立法，在這個框架範圍之下，行政權可以再精準的細部分配。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，因為它畢竟是一部法，所以立法權當然有一定的角色，謝謝。現在行政端主張財政運作困難，您剛剛其實已經回答得差不多了，就是具體來講，到底什麼樣叫做財政運作困難？還是它其實只是行政效率跟事權分配的問題？就您目前了解的狀況，因為您認為還要經過精算跟分析，所以沒有辦法在這裡給我們答案嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：例如在某份問卷裡面有提到，監察院對外宣稱96%的預算被刪除，我不知道這個資訊對不對……"],["牛委員煦庭：那個是預算，我現在談的是財政收支劃分法。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：以目前來講，重新劃分中央跟地方財政的分配，我覺得錢跟權要做對等的設計，我也知道委員現在正好在處理地方制度法的修正……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！你也有做一下功課，謝謝。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就是在討論這件事，就是說……"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：其實這就是權跟錢……"],["牛委員煦庭：錢跟權，事權的討論啦！好，我們談論到事權討論的部分，請問事權的討論應該是行政單位內部，因為它是中央跟地方分工的問題，也許要參酌一些民意的要求，所以立法院可能有角色，你覺得司法院用大法官釋憲等等的角色來介入事權的分配是合理的嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：誠如剛剛跟委員報告的，如果這個是有碰到底線的疑慮……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以碰到底線才要出手嘛，對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，這個部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：我舉一個例子好了，我們大概有具體的例子，譬如說今天如果把中央所有可以調度的資源通通一刀切、通通劃到了地方政府，讓中央本來規劃的政策完全沒有辦法推行，那本席也同意這當然就出現了很嚴重的問題，您在自傳裡面或者在回答的時候也有講到中央行政權被架空的問題，但今天如果只是改變分配的比例，中央還是有一定的數額可以調度的時候，請問有碰到紅線嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果按照委員所假設情況的話，可能離違憲的距離還……"],["牛委員煦庭：還比較大，對不對？我就跟被提名人交換一下意見，以現在3,700億來講，它當然影響了……跟過去相比，中央當然要多分一部分錢到地方，但你要講因為這樣，所以它所有的預算都沒有辦法執行或者是行政權被架空……我講的應該不是假設，沒關係，後面有詳細的數據，我想以昭公信是沒有問題的。目前為止，我還滿欣賞被提名人的回答，您如果成為大法官，本案如果你有機會參與審理，因為這個已經被提釋憲，您比較傾向主張立法權依法擴大地方財政的正當性，還是比較傾向行政院應該有更大控管財務的自由？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我自己從事地方自治多年的教學，我向來的主張就是當把自治權回歸或下放給地方自治團體的時候，錢其實也要跟著下去，否則就會出現有權無錢的窘境，所以一個前提命題是，假設中央跟地方的權限劃分要盡可能地朝向優於地方的方向位移的話，我會認同錢要跟著下去。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。再來是大家非常關心的題目，當然就是有關於死刑的存廢。您在自傳上面表示，我們要嚴正地面對每一個聲請釋憲的案件，妥適地尋覓出能顧及我國憲政實踐環境、又能夠契合人權指標的最佳衝突調和或解決方案。以您個人的立場，您支持廢除死刑嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：以目前的現況來講，對於廢死，我個人不支持，我的理由在於從憲法的角度來看，死刑的潛理解是因為有一個故意殺人罪的成立，而殺人罪的形成，憲法另外一個意味是，有一條人命或者數條人命的生命權被剝奪了，所以死刑其實是權益調和後，國家昭告民眾何謂正義的一種方案。當然，這個方案不是亙古不變的，當人民可以慢慢接受可能有另外一種機制也足以彰顯正義的時候，或許到那個時機，我們可以嚴正地考慮是不是不要再以剝奪生命的方式來調和基本權的衝突狀況。"],["牛委員煦庭：換言之，你也認為基本上要談論這麼深水區的議題之前，一定要兼顧司法的公益性與社會大眾對於司法公平性的期待，對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我個人認為這個題目本來就應該經過深切的討論，取得社會的最大公約數，再來思考，但問題是，憲判字第8號其實已經判下去了，針對死刑的要件，雖然宣告死刑是合憲的，但是從民意代表的角度來看，其中加諸了非常多非常不合理的各項邏輯，包含各審級需要有一致判決的制度創設，而這樣的標準並沒有出現在任何的憲法條文、法律條文，甚至當初聲請人的主張之中。請問被提名人，憲法法庭有無權力自行創設一套高於立法機關的量刑機制？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：關於這個問題，我在回復黨團的問卷裡面有提到，雖然站在人民的立場或者未來執行大法官職務的立場，大法官的判決有拘束力，這個我完全認同，但是如果委員要問我個人的意見，對於各審級一致決這樣的憲法法庭創設意見，我是有一些比較不一樣的想法。其實在憲判字第8號的解釋理由書裡面有特別以併予指出這樣的方式去談論國防案件，在那裡沒有去挑戰國民法官法裡面的非一致決，只要求三位職業法官要一致決，在判決的主文裡面也沒有彰顯職業法官一致決的話語，只說各審級一致決，所以……"],["牛委員煦庭：這個就是可怕的地方。大法官是法界最高的榮譽，其實未來你們如果做了大法官，都掌握了非常非常大的話語權，哪怕不是形於判決主文或什麼，都很有可能會影響整個法界大家的思考方向，從而去影響實務上的判決。就實務上來講，憲判字第8號出來之後，當然就看到越來越多這樣的狀況，包含非最嚴重之罪刑、未符合一致決等等，而造成社會很大的恐慌，我們真的非常希望……如果我們要重新討論這樣的事情，大概只有透過重新釋憲的方式，再來重新改善這個有大法官造法這樣疑慮的憲法判決。關於這一部分，如果你有幸可以成為大法官，我們希望你可以本於超然獨立的立場跟過去一貫的主張，用一個比較能夠讓社會大眾接受、維護司法公信力的方式來思考，這是本席給你的建議。","最後還有一點點時間，我要問一個比較有趣的問題，在前一段時間立法院有討論過一個概念，我們現在有這麼多的憲政衝突，其實問題是來自於到底誰是多數、誰是少數。現在的總統是得到40%的選票就可以當選，因為選舉是一個「三腳督」這樣的情況，可是國會卻是朝小野大，那當然就出現了到底誰比較重要的問題，對不對？結果就衍生了很多的憲政僵局。曾經有人主張用修法的方式來引入、比照法國總統的二輪選舉，那當然執政黨就主張這個是一定違憲，依憲法增修條文第二條規定，總統、副總統候選人應聯名登記，並且以得票多數之一組為當選，可是這樣的概念、這樣的精神跟一輪投票、二輪投票有絕對的關係嗎？我想請教一下被提名人的看法。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我個人認為，基本上還是取決於總統副總統選罷法，目前這個法律是明定相對多數決，也就是說，由相對多數決的一組勝出。在大院有立法權的情況之下，其實是可以去思考有沒有可能修訂當選的門檻，等於對其公信力跟民主正當性的強化再去檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：換言之，如果立法院經過討論、決議之後修法通過，把它變成二輪投票制，其實並不會違背憲法的精神，對不對？因為不管是達到一個門檻或者是相對多數，它其實都是多數，我覺得憲法框架的應該是一個相對大的範圍。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，憲法沒有設定到這麼細緻的投票門檻規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以如果立法院真的在討論之後把它變成二輪投票，這其實也是一個可以被思考的方向，而且它不會違反憲法的精神，我可以認定這是你的想法嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：從國民主權的角度來講，我認為並沒有顯然的違憲之虞。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。以上是我針對被提名人的質詢，感謝你清楚的回答，謝謝。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝牛委員，謝謝被提名人。","下一位請陳培瑜委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"163121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292bafbbf0847f817951e71d587566aeaab6eb4b0aafec90296dc93dc069a48e80b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"15:21:51 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詹教授五萬"},{"start":18.375,"end":39.595,"text":"恭喜您被提名為我們大法官也感謝您在這個關鍵的時刻願意承擔起首務憲法憲政秩序的一個重責大任今天也很榮幸有這個機會可以在國會殿堂與您一起來探討我們憲政與人權的相關議題"},{"start":40.856,"end":66.447,"text":"那你也是本次我們審查這個名單最後一位的一個大法官被提名人那有沒有信心對於這一次的提名能夠順利過關謝謝委員的鼓勵我盡我所能好那也在此祝福預祝您在這個提名的過程裡面能夠順利過關讓憲法法庭儘早恢復這個正常的運作"},{"start":67.644,"end":96.787,"text":"過去也不乏有優秀的學者轉任我們憲法的守門人的角色對於國家根本的制度發揮有了深遠的影響接下來我想進一步針對您本於大法官的理念及挑戰以及社會所關心的相關議題來和您做一個討論也請詹教授能夠完整的說明您的看法"},{"start":97.707,"end":115.2,"text":"那大法官一任的任期是八年那若您與其他的這個被提名人能夠在這一次的審查過程順利通過的話任期將會到這個2033年那考量到政經情勢的一個變化"},{"start":116.307,"end":127.794,"text":"以及民主政治的發展放眼到八年後的這段期間您認為我們憲法法庭所面臨的最大困難及挑戰會是什麼"},{"start":129.448,"end":149.677,"text":"好謝謝委員的提問這個時程還蠻遠的所以當然世事變遷難以預估不過請容許我以目前我們的政治現況跟委員來做回覆跟報告"},{"start":152.15,"end":174.97,"text":"如果能夠有幸出任大法官我想我立即會去面臨到的困境大概有兩件事情第一個就是在大法官的職權行使上面關於這個限訴法的修正當然未來釋憲的結果如何難以預測"},{"start":176.553,"end":203.588,"text":"但是依照目前的修法狀況他會讓整個大法官一決平易的難度拉高那這個可能是好處是他增加了公信力但是面臨到的困境是其實裡面的共識更難形成這是程序面我初步想到的實體面就是向來"},{"start":205.208,"end":222.129,"text":"申請憲法解釋人權案件高達98%以上不過以目前我們的政治生態憲政機關之間的權力分立的爭議可預期的案件量會大增"},{"start":224.455,"end":251.517,"text":"權力分立的釋憲其實他會面臨到很困難的一個困境這是除非憲法是強制規定否則的話他不免還是擁有一個價值判斷的空間所以我們從憲判9其實已經得到這樣的一個啟發我相信這個也是有未來會去面對的一個困境跟挑戰好那"},{"start":252.81,"end":277.822,"text":"在今年3月的時候我們大法官被提名人介紹的記者會上我們蕭美琴副總統曾表示我們之前賴總統對於被提名人有三個期許第一就是要守護自由民主的憲政制度來捍衛人權、保障及人民權利的一個救濟"},{"start":278.803,"end":295.373,"text":"那第二是要提升我們國安這個案件的專業能量確保國家安全及連任的政治第三是要持續推動司法改革提升審判品質這個效率同時進行司法工作環境的一個減壓"},{"start":296.687,"end":310.94,"text":"那當然其中有涉及司法行政的這個部分是屬於政府院長的全責了那未來若您能順利來擔任大法官您認為應該如何達到以上三個期許"},{"start":312.386,"end":331.052,"text":"好 謝謝委員蕭副總統如何對這次七位被提名的大法官被提名人的定調這個其實當初在程序上我們其實是不清楚這樣子的一個期許"},{"start":332.335,"end":347.982,"text":"但是在這個的前提之下我個人認為第一個期許這本來就是大法官的職責維護自由民主的憲政秩序本來就是作為大法官理應捍衛之事"},{"start":349.212,"end":362.703,"text":"那第二個部分國安這或許是有行政職的部分針對我們一般的司法審判的議題但是回到大法官的關聯性上面稱如"},{"start":364.022,"end":392.013,"text":"剛剛跟其他委員的答覆國安它可以是限制人權的一種公義適用但是它不會是絕對優先的一種理由所以如果未來在行使大法官職權時還是會回到個案裡面去衡量跟斟酌在這裡所涉及到的國安的"},{"start":393.237,"end":409.288,"text":"保護的強度為何所以這個部分我倒不認為國安的能量必然是因為這樣的提名而會有所提升的至於說四大改革這個陳如剛委員所說這可能是比較涉及到"},{"start":410.99,"end":430.79,"text":"司法行政的面向那我也只能說站在大法官的職責我會盡其所能的加速在自己能力範圍內讓案子能夠早一點達到這個裁判的可能性來消化目前正在排隊冗長的這些案件"},{"start":433.83,"end":454.238,"text":"謝謝教授詳細的說明我們也談到對於大法官的期待多半會提到對於人權保障的議題畢竟憲法作為人民基本權益的後盾在面對社會的快速發展之下也必須與時俱進"},{"start":456.226,"end":470.502,"text":"那在您的報告書當中第五頁有提到說您對於憲政核心的一個理念是人性尊嚴的保障與提升並且面對社會急劇的變遷認為人權保障"},{"start":474.146,"end":499.557,"text":"仍然有諸多需要提升的地方那我想了解的是若您擔任大法官在未來的這個任期當中您最關切的這個人性尊嚴人權保障的議題及您認為這個很更不變的這個普世價值會是什麼大法官不僅僅是人權的守護者"},{"start":500.623,"end":507.711,"text":"他同時在職權範圍內也盡可能的能夠作為人權的促進者"},{"start":509.259,"end":534.28,"text":"當然如果有相關的憲法訴訟的案件進來在不違反這個司法被動的原則之下我有機會能夠去這個表述一些人權精進的看法的話我會覺得我們目前有一些像我在口頭報告裡面所表述的像受刑人的"},{"start":535.753,"end":555.482,"text":"這個參政權像剛剛這個陳昭之委員所提到的生育權甚至我們目前因為社會的變遷年輕人買不起房子這種所謂的氏族的這個居住權這個其實在兩公約裡面都有去提到"},{"start":557.079,"end":569.154,"text":"部分他是比較具有前瞻性的但是如果真的有訴訟案件進來的話我也會很樂意在上面去落實這樣比較前瞻性的人權的實現"},{"start":570.64,"end":595.223,"text":"好 那就誠如剛剛教授您所說的不管是在人身自由還是年輕世代氏族居住權的促進等等這方面我也希望說我們未來如果有機會在這個職務上應該要多多來重視保障他們的基本權益那再來我是"},{"start":595.868,"end":621.962,"text":"就針對這次審查過程當中有很多委員都有提及的關於憲法法庭運作能力的相關問題我想還是請教我們被提名人自去年的10月31日七位大法官卸任之後司法院至今對於目前只有八位大法官在任"},{"start":623.443,"end":632.536,"text":"對於這個先前人事案未能順利的通過那使得大法官人數一直都無法湊足也沒辦法補足"},{"start":633.1,"end":661.255,"text":"那同時在去年的12月20號這個國會通過這個限訴法修正案並且於這個今年的1月23日正式實施其中第30條有關憲法判決評議的這個門檻規定做成憲法判決至少要10位大法官參與評議宣告違憲的部分也需要9位以上大法官同意"},{"start":662.891,"end":684.06,"text":"司法院曾在去年的新聞稿當中也提出示警表示此舉將不利憲法審查與效率並且與人民基本的權益保障會有風險事實上自新法實施至今尚無任何的憲法判決的作成"},{"start":684.892,"end":711.887,"text":"那再進一步觀察今年5月12日現任大法官雖然曾就此召開這個說明會但也僅就程序受理的這個要件提出說明並為就新法的這個核限性進行實質的審查現在不僅無法做成判決連是否能夠收案都成了一個非常大的一個問題那在此"},{"start":712.97,"end":741.416,"text":"制度困境之下未來您若擔任大法官要面對的是大法官人數不足卻有憲法疑義需解決的情況之下您認為憲法法庭是否仍然應先行受理案件由現行的這個大法官就受理的要件或程序這個核限性進行審查還是說應該等人數補足之後再來審理那另外"},{"start":742.455,"end":755.051,"text":"或是有其他的制度解釋的空間讓憲法法庭維持最低限度的憲政功能不被癱瘓以上這幾個問題是不是請教授簡單的說明"},{"start":759.821,"end":778.562,"text":"委員的這個問題其實難度蠻高的目前在學界確實有這樣的一個討論就是以目前的八位大法官有沒有可能進入實質審查那這最主要的"},{"start":779.795,"end":801.136,"text":"真點就在於說可不可以用修正前的限速法來作為程序進行的準據如果可以的話那當然這個就解套了我個人本身是比較不持這樣的一個見解即便"},{"start":803.203,"end":828.76,"text":"它將來被我們的憲法法庭宣告為違憲但是它畢竟是一個三讀通過而現行有效的法律所以從這個觀點來講目前憲訴法的三十條的規定似乎我個人的看法用舊法去審空間並不大"},{"start":829.898,"end":858.462,"text":"那有沒有什麼制度上的選擇去解套以我目前有限的知識確實很難想到有什麼比較理想的方案那當然最理想方案當然就是說我們趕快讓這個低於10位以下的組成能夠把他母數補足讓他盡早的回復應有的憲政功能這也是我們期待的"},{"start":859.397,"end":872.641,"text":"那再來我想請教這個被提名人有可能在未來任期內直接面對的一個重要的憲政問題也就是中央政府總預算這個大幅的刪減與凍結所引發的憲法爭議"},{"start":875.902,"end":890.636,"text":"那根據這個釋字第391號解釋大法官雖然肯認立法院在審查預算時有調整與刪減的這個權限但也特別提及不得比照這個法律案"},{"start":891.477,"end":917.194,"text":"逐條修正並應尊重行政機關整體編列的邏輯與功能那我想國會的這個刪減不應該侵害其他憲法所賦予的行政機關整體編列的核心職權及它的基本運作的能力因此我想請教教授您認為"},{"start":918.695,"end":945.924,"text":"針對特定機關的業務費集中刪減若使得該機關難以履行其憲法職責是否有可能違反憲法上的權利分立原則我們憲法當中對於預算提出權跟預算審議權它的框架規範其實是相當薄弱的"},{"start":946.806,"end":967.155,"text":"但如果按照剛剛委員您所提出的假設命題如果他成就的話也就是說預算的三減足以癱瘓一個憲法機關他的法定職權的行使"},{"start":968.066,"end":987.504,"text":"在這個情況之下就有可能逾越憲法當中的權力分立及機關忠誠的原則至於說有沒有達到實質癱瘓或者是形同虛設這樣的一個情境那可能還是要看具體三檢的狀況而定"},{"start":990.837,"end":1013.748,"text":"我們也看到監察院已經在3月份申請釋憲行政院也在5月份對於總預算也申請釋憲但由於大法官人數未達評議門檻,尚未實質的來審查但如果總預算案被宣告違憲,接下來如何補救也會是一個非常大的問題"},{"start":1015.711,"end":1038.848,"text":"依照比例原則通案來分析,您認為有沒有具體的判斷三檢是否逾越必要程度的標準或界限而基於各機關憲法職權的尊重我們應該如何與立法院預算審查的職權之間能夠取得一個平衡點"},{"start":1040.609,"end":1069.965,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為案子細數我大概就只針對我自己的想法做一般性的回應預算審議權不代表沒有界限成了我剛剛跟委員報告的那目前不管根據大法官的解釋意旨也好或者是相關的學說的見解也好比較穩定的是"},{"start":1070.666,"end":1096.301,"text":"法定經費這個部分是不能刪的也就是說例如說像維持一個機關常態運行的公務人員的人事費這個部分是沒有刪除的空間再來我們大法官在釋字601號涉及到那個時候大法官的司法專業家籍"},{"start":1098.018,"end":1116.693,"text":"被立法院以預算案的方式去刪除那在601號的解釋裡面我們大法官認為這不僅僅是一個這並不是一個立法院可以刪減預算的裁量權"},{"start":1117.847,"end":1139.394,"text":"他50更是憲法80條81條的一個法定憲法上的必要的支付項目那如果今天碰到這個底線大概會比較清晰的他會涉及到在這裡會有危險之餘好那"},{"start":1141.151,"end":1156.526,"text":"時間因素,在此我也謝謝我們被提名的詹教授今天非常詳細的一個回答上面的這些問題那您的這個理念跟看法我們都非常的明白"},{"start":1157.045,"end":1164.976,"text":"那大法官不但是我們憲政秩序跟民主制度的一個守護者那因本於這個獨立專業與良知來審理這個憲法相關的訴訟案件並做成這個裁判"},{"start":1171.243,"end":1190.123,"text":"那也是保障我們人民基本權益最堅強的一個後盾那您在憲法上的觀點價值上的判斷都會直接影響到台灣未來的一個在自由、平等與法治上的一個走向那我由衷期待停擺多時的這個憲法法庭能夠盡速的恢復正常的運作"},{"start":1190.863,"end":1216.986,"text":"朝野能夠秉持專業審查的態度來行使同意權更希望能夠透過今天國會的對話能夠讓社會大眾了解您對於憲法的理解以及作為大法官所具備的私人性那謝謝我們今天大法官被提名的詹教授也祝您一切順利謝謝委員謝謝詹委員謝謝被提名人"},{"start":1218.234,"end":1221.625,"text":"報告全院委員會休息10分鐘休息之後繼續進行詢問現在休息"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（15時21分）謝謝大會主席江副院長。有請大法官被提名人。"],["主席：請被提名人答詢。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：詹教授午安。恭喜您被提名為我們的大法官，也感謝您在這個關鍵的時刻，願意承擔起守護憲法及憲政秩序的一個重責大任。今天也很榮幸有這個機會，可以在國會殿堂與您一起探討我們憲政與人權的相關議題，你也是本次我們審查這個名單最後一位大法官被提名人，有沒有信心這次的提名能夠順利過關？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員的鼓勵，我盡我所能。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，也在此祝福及預祝您在這個提名的過程裡能夠順利過關，讓憲法法庭儘早恢復正常的運作。過去也不乏有優秀的學者轉任我們憲法守門人的角色啦！對於國家根本的制度發揮有了深遠的影響。接下來，我想進一步針對您本於大法官的理念及挑戰，以及社會所關心的相關議題來和您討論，也請詹教授能夠完整的說明您的看法。","大法官一任的任期是8年，若您與其他的被提名人能夠在這一次的審查過程順利通過的話，任期將會到2033年。考量到政經情勢的一個變化，以及民主政治的發展，放眼到8年後的這段期間，您認為我們憲法法庭所面臨的最大困難及挑戰會是什麼？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員的提問。這個時程還滿遠的，當然世事變遷、難以預估，不過請容許我以目前我們的政治現況跟委員回復跟報告。如果能夠有幸出任大法官，我想立即會去面臨到的困境大概有兩件事情，第一個就是在大法官的職權行使上關於憲訴法的修正，當然未來釋憲的結果如何是難以預測的，但是依照目前的修法狀況，它會讓整個大法官議決、評議的難度拉高，這個好處可能是增加了公信力，但是面臨到的困境是，裡面的共識更難形成，這是程序面我初步想到的。實體面就是向來在聲請憲法解釋的案件中，人權案件高達98%以上，不過以目前我們的政治生態，憲政機關之間的權力分立的爭議，可預期的是案件量會大增。權力分立的釋憲，其實它會面臨到很困難的一個困境，就是除非憲法是強制規定，否則，它不免還是擁有一個價值判斷的空間，我們從憲判9已經得到這樣一個啟發，我相信這也是未來會去面對的一個困境跟挑戰。"],["陳委員俊宇：在今年的3月的時候，在介紹大法官被提名人的記者會上，我們蕭美琴副總統曾表示，之前賴總統對於被提名人有三個期許：第一就是要守護自由民主的憲政制度，來捍衛人權保障及人民權利的救濟；第二是要提升國安案件的專業能量，確保國家安全及廉能的政治；第三是要持續推動司法改革，提升審判品質與效率，同時進行司法工作環境的減壓。其中涉及司法行政的部分是屬於正副院長的權責，未來如果您能順利擔任大法官，您認為應該如何達到以上三個期許？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員，蕭副總統如何對這次7位大法官被提名人的定調，當初在程序上，我們其實不清楚有這樣的期許，但是在這個前提之下，我個人認為，第一個期許本來就是大法官的職責，維護自由民主的憲政秩序本來就是作為大法官理應捍衛之事。第二個部分國安，這或許有行政職的部分，針對我們一般的司法審判的議題，但是回到大法官的關連性上面，誠如剛剛答復其他委員時所說，國安可以是限制人權的一種公益事由，但是它不會是絕對優先的一種理由，所以如果未來在行使大法官職權時，還是會回到個案裡面去衡量跟斟酌在這裡所涉及到的國安保護強度為何，所以這個部分，我倒不認為國安的能量必然是因為這樣的提名而會有所提升的。至於司法改革，誠如剛剛委員所說，這可能比較涉及到司法行政的面向，那我也只能說，站在大法官的職責上，我會在自己能力範圍內，盡其所能的加速，讓案子能夠早一點達到裁判的可能性，來消化目前正在冗長排隊的這些案件。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝教授詳細的說明。我們談到對於大法官的期待，多半會提到對於人權保障的議題，畢竟憲法作為人民基本權益的後盾，面對社會的快速發展，也必須與時俱進，在您的報告書第五頁提到，您對於憲政核心的理念是人性尊嚴的保障與提升，並且面對社會急遽的變遷，認為人權保障仍然有諸多需要提升的地方。那我想了解的是，若您擔任大法官，在未來的任期當中，您最關切的人性尊嚴、人權保障的議題，及您認為恆亙不變的普世價值會是什麼？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：好。大法官不僅僅是人權的守護者，他同時在職權範圍內，也盡可能的能夠作為人權的促進者。當然，如果有相關的憲法訴訟的案件進來，在不違反司法被動的原則之下，我有機會能夠去表述一些人權精進的看法的話，我會覺得我們目前有一些，像我在口頭報告裡面所表述的，像受刑人的參政權……"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：像剛剛陳昭姿委員所提到的生育權，甚至目前因為社會變遷，年輕人買不起房子這種所謂適足的居住權，這個其實在兩公約裡面都有提到。部分它是比較具有前瞻性的，但是如果真的有訴訟案件進來的話，我也會很樂意在上面落實這樣比較前瞻性的人權的實現。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。誠如剛剛教授所說的，不管是在人身自由還是年輕世代適足居住權的促進等等這方面，我也希望未來如果有機會在這個職務上，應該要多多重視，保障他們的基本權益。","再來，針對這次審查過程當中很多委員都有提及的，關於憲法法庭運作能力的相關問題，我還是想請教被提名人。自去年10月31日七位大法官卸任之後，司法院至今只有八位大法官在任，由於先前人事案未能順利通過，使得大法官的人數一直都無法補足。同時在去年12月20號，國會通過憲訴法修正案，並且於今年1月23日正式實施，其中第三十條有關憲法判決評議的門檻規定，作成憲法判決至少要十位大法官參與評議，宣告違憲的部分也需要九位以上大法官同意。","司法院曾在去年的新聞稿當中示警，表示此舉將不利憲法審查與效率，並且會讓人民基本權益的保障有風險。事實上自新法實施至今，尚無任何憲法判決作成。再進一步觀察，今年5月12日，現任大法官雖然曾就此召開說明會，但也僅就程序受理的要件提出說明，並未就新法的合憲性進行實質的審查。現在不僅無法作成判決，連是否能夠收案都成了一個非常大的問題。","在此制度困境之下，未來您若擔任大法官，面對大法官人數不足，卻有憲法疑義需解決的情況之下，您認為憲法法庭是否仍然應先行受理案件，由現行的大法官就受理要件或程序的合憲性進行審查，還是說應該等人數補足之後再來審理？另外，或是有其他制度解釋的空間，讓憲法法庭維持最低限度的憲政功能不被癱瘓？以上這幾個問題，是不是請教授簡單的說明。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：委員的問題其實難度滿高的。目前在學界確實有這樣的一個討論，就是以目前的八位大法官，有沒有可能進入實質審查？這最主要的爭點就在於，可不可以用修正前的憲訴法作為程序進行的準據？"],["陳委員俊宇：可以嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果可以的話，這個當然就解套了。我個人是比較不持這樣的見解，即便它將來被憲法法庭宣告為違憲，但它畢竟是一個三讀通過而現行有效的法律，所以從這個觀點來講，目前憲訴法第三十條的規定似乎……我個人的看法，用舊法去審的空間並不大。那麼有沒有什麼制度上的選擇去解套？以我目前有限的知識，確實很難想到有什麼比較理想的方案。最理想的方案當然就是趕快讓低於10位以下的組成……"],["陳委員俊宇：人數補足。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：能夠把它的母數補足，讓它儘早回復應有的憲政功能。"],["陳委員俊宇：這也是我們期待的。","再來我想請教被提名人，在未來任期內有可能直接面對的一個重要的憲政問題，就是中央政府總預算被大幅刪減與凍結所引發的憲法爭議。根據釋字第391號解釋，大法官雖然肯認立法院在審查預算時有調整與刪減的權限，但也特別提及不得比照法律案逐條修正，並應尊重行政機關整體編列的邏輯與功能。我想，國會的刪減不應該侵害其他憲法所賦予的行政機關整體編列的核心職權及其基本運作的能力，因此我想請教教授，您認為針對特定機關的業務費集中刪減，若使得該機關難以履行其憲法職責，是否有可能違反憲法上的權力分立原則？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我們憲法當中對於預算提出權和預算審議權的框架規範其實是相當薄弱的，如果按照剛剛委員您所提出的假設命題，如果它成就的話，也就是說，預算的刪減足以癱瘓一個憲法機關之法定職權的行使，在這個情況之下，就有可能逾越憲法當中的權力分立及機關忠誠的原則，至於有沒有達到實質癱瘓或者是形同虛設這樣的情境，可能還是要看具體刪減的狀況而定。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們看到監察院已經在3月份聲請釋憲，行政院也在5月份對於總預算聲請釋憲，但由於大法官人數未達評議門檻，尚未實質審查，但如果總預算案被宣告違憲，接下來如何補救也會是一個非常大的問題。依照比例原則通案來分析，您認為有沒有具體的判斷，刪減是否逾越必要程度的標準或界限？而基於對各機關憲法職權的尊重，應該如何與立法院預算審查的職權之間取得一個平衡點？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員，因為案子繫屬，我大概就只針對我自己的想法做一般性的回應：預算審議權不代表沒有界限，誠如我剛剛跟委員報告的，目前不管根據大法官的解釋意旨也好，或者是相關的學說見解也好，比較穩定的是法定經費這個部分是不能刪的，也就是說，例如像維持一個機關常態運行的公務人員的人事費，這個部分沒有刪除的空間。再來，大法官在釋字601號，涉及那個時候大法官的司法專業加給被立法院以預算案的方式予以刪除，在601號的解釋裡面，大法官認為這並不是立法院可以刪減預算的裁量權，毋寧更是憲法第八十條、第八十一條的一個憲法上必要的法定支付項目，如果今天碰到這個底線，大概會比較清晰，它在這裡會涉及有違憲之虞。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。時間因素，在此我也謝謝被提名人詹教授今天非常詳細的回答上面這些問題，您的理念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從憲法的角度來講大陸地區人民不是外國人對吧是因為我常常在聽到民進黨的立委在政論節目上那個王一川委員說陳玉珍說憲法說大陸地區人民不是外國人他說這個一點法學常識都沒有您大法官背景裡面跟我一樣沒有法學常識我想請問您"},{"start":113.544,"end":134.686,"text":"這個不好意思這個國民黨團有一個問卷跟您請教幾點有關這個國家安全保障人權的部分您回覆的重點如下從憲法角度以觀人權的限制本身並不必然當然構成違憲人權的限制來要細膩的審查其他政當事由是否該當然後另外一個"},{"start":135.367,"end":156.775,"text":"就是您承認說在國家安全和人權保護之間是一種可能因為社會政治因素不同而擁有變動之可能性然後必然是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境調和然後接著在古典的學理上基於國家安全限制一些憲法保障的自由權利必須是"},{"start":158.015,"end":176.269,"text":"以達有著手危害國家存在的具體限制之程度如果只是單純的意念表達或是不具影響力的鼓吹尚不足以具有限制人權的憲法上正當性這是您的回答沒有錯吧"},{"start":177.13,"end":189.489,"text":"這每個字都是您說的那您提到因為我們這個是討論有關國家安全和人權保障我看您剛剛的報告也相當的注重這個人權的保障那但是您說有一種可能是因為社會政治"},{"start":190.799,"end":219.122,"text":"因素不同而擁有變動之可能性是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境的調和這各位再說清楚一點班子們好像是讓大家覺得司法像月亮初一十五不一樣因為社會現實需要的現實情境的融合可以再舉實例說明嗎好謝謝委員的提問也謝謝委員讓我有說明的機會國家安全它是一個不確定的法律概念"},{"start":220.293,"end":238.501,"text":"而且對國家安全和限制人權的管制強度跟手段也擁有不同它可能是一個初步的行政管制的限制也有可能是高密度的刑罰或者是這個案例裡面的甚至是驅逐出境"},{"start":239.625,"end":251.047,"text":"我的意思是說在個案審查核限性時我們在橫著公益跟私益就回到剛剛委員第一章"},{"start":252.943,"end":280.374,"text":"檢報檔裡面所談的比例原則我們既要去關注那個公益室友的強度也要關注他干預措施的強度我用例子來問您這個4-64號明確的解釋人民團體法容許主管機關與許可設立人民團體權得救人民主張共產主義或主張分裂國土之政治上言論之內容為審查並作為不許可之理由"},{"start":281.554,"end":305.877,"text":"嫌疑逾越必要這程度嘛這是六四四號的解釋以憲法保障人民解釋自由和言論自由的不符所以我想請問您下面這四個問題第一個主張共產主義是不是屬於言論自由是主張分裂國土是不是屬於言論自由是主張武統台灣是不是屬於言論自由是主張用刑法一百條來辦在野黨立委是不是屬於言論自由"},{"start":308.06,"end":334.893,"text":"以上這幾點您都認為這是言論上的主張應該是跟劣勢式的看法是從基本權的角度這個都是言論上的看法就是這些都是一種主張嘛並沒有著手去實施嘛對吧應該你是從這個角度來出發所以這些都是言論自由那但是呢您看到最近我們國家做了哪一樣的事情我們國家對於主張這個無從的這個陸配做驅逐出境這等於是做這個人權上很大的這個侵害這個他"},{"start":337.295,"end":352.432,"text":"你的說法跟這個陸委會的說法不太一樣跟我們行政院說法不一樣行政院就是陸委會啦我們在這行政機關認為主張武統台灣不是一個言論自由這是危害國家安全啦那你的說法是嘛所以我很擔心等一下如果民進黨委員詢問的時候"},{"start":354.835,"end":379.683,"text":"我們下一題啊 憲法徵求條例第十一條自由地區嘛 我們中華民國憲法自由地區與大陸地區人民權利義務關係其他處理是用法律為特別之規定就是我們說台灣地區與大陸地區兩個人民關係條例就這個條例嘛這個剛剛問過 因為您說過這個 請問您大陸地區的人民是不是中華民國的人民這個您剛剛說過是嘛按照憲法徵求條例來講"},{"start":381.644,"end":408.26,"text":"除了這一件剛剛說這個驅逐陸配這個主張武統言論的被驅逐這個人權受到侵害以外齁最近行政機關做了一件事情他要求陸配 陸配 您知道嗎您不知道有沒有關心這個時事就是很多陸配來台灣已經很久了二三十年而且已經取得中華民國的這個身份證明但是我們的政府機關說當時你們證件可能補不齊所以要求你們補除籍證明齁兩國人民公共條約是有規定涉及台灣要繳交除籍證明齁那請問"},{"start":410.161,"end":429.614,"text":"當時在給這些證件的時候也許是補得足或補不足也許有補足也有補不足但是在事後已經經過二三十年後才又要求這個人民繳交當初應該繳交過的文件請問在法律上法律上是可以追溯繳交當初應該繳交的這個繳交過的文件嗎在這個行政措施上你的看法怎麼樣呢"},{"start":431.172,"end":460.002,"text":"你知道我在問的題目吧我了解這個可能會涉及到如果當初在法律的規定裡面就必須繳交對必須繳交但是只是行政便宜讓相對人能夠延緩但是他時候已經取得了已經給他這個相關的證明了對就給他身份證明了一個消極的行政不去執法的作為可否作為信賴的基礎是"},{"start":462.06,"end":480.145,"text":"經過二三十年後 或者是有實效性或是有怎樣 我想請教這一點您的看法呢通常我們在學理上所講的信賴保護 或者是不得溯及適用它的前提必須要有一個積極的受益的行政行為"},{"start":481.522,"end":507.299,"text":"所以說您的意思是說我簡單說說因為當初是消極的不作為行政不作為所以現在要求他去補當然我知道要求補是一定可以的這個沒有問題但是如果他沒有補的話是不是可以因此而剝奪他的這個就是身份權啦這個公民身份權啦這個中華民國國籍他們已經取了身份證嘛這樣的權利做這樣的這個對人權的侵害跟這個所謂的因為他沒有補交這種比例來講您的看法呢"},{"start":508.188,"end":524.723,"text":"我的看法倒是不會這麼樣的一個非黑即白的不是非黑即白現在就要執行法律啊這樣沒有佼佼是不是應該被剝奪他中華民國國民的權利呢我的意思是說因為畢竟這是長年以來憲政不積極執法的問題"},{"start":526.519,"end":550.985,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下我們在解決目前面臨到的困境有沒有可能以一個比較這個折衝的方式來解決這個問題所以不過我知道這是後面的話但如果今天行政機關就說好三個月內五個月內一年內你沒有繳交我就是要剝奪你這個身份就是一樣驅逐出境像剛剛那個武統陸配他的言論自由他被驅逐出境那你也認為這樣是合憲的嗎"},{"start":553.715,"end":578.528,"text":"有沒有因為用國家安全的理由或因為你的行政以前的消極不作為而剝奪人民的這個人權呢有沒有達到變成到侵犯人權的結果呢是不是何憲文好沒關係有沒有侵犯人權呢人權當然有侵犯到但陳儒剛剛跟我原報告其實我們在做如果您身為大法官這樣的事情到了憲法法庭你會怎麼做判斷呢"},{"start":579.617,"end":585.166,"text":"還是要看個案當中我剛講的就是這樣案子都普遍都是這樣案子已經是通案了"},{"start":586.704,"end":610.405,"text":"沒有回答 沒關係 好 那個想請問您 剛剛我聽到您在跟這個陳昭之委員詢問的時候他說這個馬英九總統 蔡英文總統 賴清德做的憲法這個就是總統兼任這個黨主席嘛就是兼任黨主席這件事情我剛剛聽您的意見 好像您是贊同兼任嘛因為政黨政治他並不是違反憲法上並沒有違反憲法 但您是贊同嗎"},{"start":612.101,"end":634.674,"text":"這個是政黨政治運作的現實所以是贊成嘛對不對尊重 贊成嗎所以現在是要進行我想請問您的看法嘛當然尊重我們都尊重啊我們也沒有辦法不尊重啊您的想法今天你如果當總統好了你會堅韌嗎從政黨政治的角度來講"},{"start":636.848,"end":657.326,"text":"我認為只要他不逾越憲法上作為總統職權的界限所以您是贊成的好沒問題這個我沒有特定答案我只是想知道您的想法跟您以前一貫主張的想法是不是一貫之2015年的時候我再看到您有一個文章裡頭寫到總統政黨與國會之相互關係裡頭"},{"start":660.689,"end":680.495,"text":"以政黨影響國政之憲法基礎的界限中這是您的文章說到黨國分離原則作為法理基礎但是國家的政黨要保持一定距離不容黨政不分基於民主憲政體制所導出的黨政分離原則政黨影響國政領導也應該有其憲法上的界限所以呢"},{"start":681.075,"end":709.215,"text":"如果以黨主席身份為國家影響藍營分析界分為憲政上面由總統兼任黨主席上述國民黨兩黨黨章的兼任規定應該要刪除比較妥當所以在2015年的時候您認為說不應該黨政不分就是說應該政黨的主席跟這個總統不應該不應該兼任但是你2025年的時候想法可能就是覺得說這個政黨政治所以也是一樣 初一十五不一樣"},{"start":710.457,"end":710.657,"text":"下一題請問您"},{"start":713.513,"end":739.467,"text":"中華民國憲法徵修條例第十條第十二項就是有關這個澎湖金門馬祖地區就是中國國家要經過依照民族意願要對這個教育、交通、水利、衛生、醫療經濟、土地、社會福利要扶持、助於發展的辦法與法律這是針對原住民對金馬、澎湖的一樣的民眾也要做一樣這樣憲法上的這個保障我想請您看一下我們金門鄉親上實際上遇到的這個實際上的困境您看一下這個圖"},{"start":740.968,"end":762.947,"text":"你看這個禁限制水域金門的禁限制水域這個是中華民國畫的依照兩岸人民關係條例29條規定是禁止大陸的船進入這個水域裡頭禁限制水域紅色跟黑色的有沒有看到禁止跟限制水域禁限制水域因為金門離大陸很近你理解嗎在廈門的旁邊所以我們把它畫起來禁止大陸船跑到金門的這個禁限制水域裡頭你們看懂了嗎"},{"start":764.161,"end":793.601,"text":"那他這個意思是怎樣 限制 禁限制大陸的漁船跑進來嘛大陸的船舶跑進來嘛那相對的我想請問您啊這個可是海巡署在執法的時候反倒是禁止金門的漁船不能超出這個禁限制水域跨出去就變成要被起訴這個禁限制水域原來是在限制大陸的今天變成我們劃地制限啊金門的漁民他的權利呢 他反而不能跑出這個這條禁限制 這些禁限制水域裡頭"},{"start":795.401,"end":814.906,"text":"您覺得這樣沒有侵犯到我們金門漁民的捕撈權利嗎就我們只能在這個圈圈裏頭捕撈不能超過這條線這條線原來是禁止大陸進來的反而今天執法單位變成禁止金門漁民出去您覺得這樣是正確的嗎然後把他們都移送到地檢署好幾百件"},{"start":818.272,"end":836.238,"text":"因為我對這個的前提狀況不是很清楚那如果按照剛剛委員所描述的事況我會理解為那個禁制區確實就是一個禁止大陸地區或者是外國的漁船進入到的一個"},{"start":840.222,"end":852.175,"text":"那為什麼現在它變成執法單位禁止金門漁民出去啊把我們自己劃起來劃地支線劃起來然後接著如果跑出去船開出去的漁民全部被移送到金門縣政府這個金門縣政府有數百件"},{"start":855.421,"end":876.09,"text":"那這種執法有依法執行嗎?紅線以外是中華民國的臨海管轄區域嗎?這個我不太清楚當然是中華民國啊中華民國啊只是說現在因為我們大陸禁嘛他就畫起來不讓大陸進來嘛結果我們出去也犯法這個東西是不是有疑問啊?好有疑問嗎?你覺得?"},{"start":877.958,"end":894.797,"text":"因為我對於基礎事實跟法律沒有基礎事實就跟你講這樣如果我講不對這個當然答案不是就不會是這樣子啊我的基礎事實就是這條線即限制隨意就是二十九條規定了兩年規定二十九條規定禁止大漁船進來那現在我們的人民出去了他說金門漁民也不能出去喔這樣違法喔"},{"start":897.44,"end":912.477,"text":"如果立法的目的是在禁止外船進入的話那這樣的一個規範確實就是榮有商榷的餘地但是前提就是我剛剛講前提是這樣的,所以這樣的執行會變成怎樣"},{"start":917.45,"end":931.529,"text":"這樣的執行會怎樣我剛沒有聽清楚你說如果立法規範確實是這樣子我有立法規範確實是那這樣子的執行現在相關單位 主管單位這樣的執行法律會變成是怎樣逾越立法的目的逾越立法目的好 謝謝您"},{"start":932.41,"end":952.307,"text":"再請問你現在美國現在在我們國家在跟美國討論關稅那美國可能提出一個條件就是針對美牛跟美豬的進口的部分要求我們放寬萊克多巴胺萊劑的這種包括標示然後這個牽扯到中央跟地方剛那題台中那個也是中央跟地方陳委員問到也是"},{"start":953.268,"end":981.943,"text":"如果我們國家在這個關稅談判以後我們就是放寬了就是說這個接受美國的條件就是萊豬萊牛這些進來的時候不標示不標示產地那這個產流標準比照這個所謂的國際原則就是接受美國的條件接受進來以後請問各個地方政府可不可以記以保障為了學生營養午餐健康為了學生健康的時候要求自行要求在比如說我是金門縣我要求在金門地區的這個萊豬"},{"start":983.826,"end":990.444,"text":"豬或是牛標示是不是含有萊克多巴胺這是中央跟地方這個權限你的看法如何呢"},{"start":991.144,"end":1010.261,"text":"在萊豬案的前提之下要不要標示含有萊克多巴胺我個人認為這個是地方擁有自行決定的空間但是如果今天我們的情況改變就是透過新的規範將標示義務的規範入法"},{"start":1015.206,"end":1022.116,"text":"標示義務的規範錄法就是他因為有一個跟當初做來案時不同的法規範基礎那就另當別論"},{"start":1022.95,"end":1050.753,"text":"但是在沒有改變的以現在的情形我認為標示跟食材的選用這個是地方有空間的好您的意思就是說假設今天談判的結果這個萊豬萊牛我們因為美國要扣關進來所以我們就答應了美國讓萊豬萊牛標示就不標示但是還有萊克多巴胺的這個豬跟牛進口然後不標示讓他們進來就不標示不標示說有沒有含但是這個進口這個是"},{"start":1052.614,"end":1073.846,"text":"之前有提到這個產業標準這些都標準是中央訂定的這也回答到但是呢在地方是不是要採用或地方要不要標示比如說我是金門縣政府我就決定說為了保障我們金門地區學生營養午餐的安全我們就要求說要使用在學生的這個營養午餐上面一定要做標示那這個是核限的對吧"},{"start":1074.631,"end":1090.807,"text":"因為萊豬案的法院的判決憲法法庭的判決的設成範圍不及於標示的部分他只去處理關於萊劑的指定的權限是在中央或地方而已"},{"start":1091.95,"end":1118.385,"text":"好 謝謝您那我們在問卷裡頭您有提到德國聯邦憲法法院曾經危害自由民主憲政秩序國家安全委員會將兩個敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散那請問這是您提到的這個德國有這樣的做過這樣敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散請問如果主張消滅中華民國憲法另外創制新憲法在德國聯邦憲法法院標準裡頭是不是符合解散政黨的要件"},{"start":1126.025,"end":1149.543,"text":"我再提示一下憲法訴訟法第77條政黨之目的或行為危害中華民國之存在或自由民主之憲政秩序者主管機關得申請憲法法庭為宣告政黨解散這判決那前提就是你有提到德國的聯邦憲法這個法院是說以危害自由民主秩序國家安全把敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散"},{"start":1150.043,"end":1172.514,"text":"所以如果我們今天我們國內有一個政黨主張消滅中華民國憲法要另外創新憲法這樣子是不是符合解散政黨的要件如果他的主張是認為我們現行的憲法不合時宜而另行制憲影響到中華民國的存續這個部分我認為不會構成違憲"},{"start":1174.935,"end":1200.431,"text":"意思就是說假設今天我們認為說把中華民國的中華民國這個繼續存在但是把中華民國改國號改為台灣共和國台澎金馬共和國金門共和國中華民國改成金門共和國這也是合憲的是嗎這個跟剛剛那個情況就不一樣因為他的這個國家主權的統一性可能就會改變我剛剛回答的前提是"},{"start":1201.151,"end":1228.577,"text":"在認同中華民國的主權前提之下我們制定一部新的憲法這個是可以的這是可以的但是把他改名可不可以呢這個就會涉及到國家存續的所以不能改名但是可以制定新憲好謝謝陳委員謝謝貝提米人下一位請陳俊宇委員詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":119,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（15時1分）謝謝主席。我們有請被提名人詹教授。"],["主席：詹被提名人答詢。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：詹教授，您好。我看到您在口頭報告裡頭說到，您對憲政領域的專業和能力表現，會秉持對憲法的信念和自我的期許，會有憲政核心價值的信念；對此，本席表示肯定，也肯定您非常學有專精，尤其在行政法的部分，應該是國內的翹楚。","我想特別跟您請教幾個問題，第一個，行政法的原則就是指在行政活動中應遵守的法律規範和指導原則，主要包括下列幾點，我們先舉其大要者：依法行政原則，還有誠信及信賴保護原則，還有比例原則，這個對吧？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯嘛！這個是基本的行政法A、B、C。","然後我想請問您，前一陣子我們在報上看到一篇報導，就是有關陸配的相關報導，也就是陸配被剝奪參政權的報導，這篇報導是一位李律師寫的，他說：請修理憲法，不要修理陸配，他們是臺灣人！報導裡面提到，憲法說大陸地區人民為我國人民，您贊成這一點嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：從憲法的角度來講，我們不會把他視為是外國人。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，從憲法的角度來講，大陸地區人民不是外國人，對吧？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。因為我常常聽到民進黨立委王義川委員在政論節目上說，陳玉珍說憲法說大陸地區人民不是外國人，他說這個一點法學常識都沒有，您是大法官被提名人，跟我一樣沒有法學常識喔！不好意思喔！"],["我想請問您，國民黨團有一個問卷跟您請教幾點有關國家安全與保障人權的部分，您回復的重點如下\n            ：從憲法角度以觀，人權的限制本身並不必然當然構成違憲，仍須細膩地進一步審查其他正當事由是否該當。另外一個是您承認在國家安全與人權保護之間，是一種可能因為社會政治因素不同而容有變動之可能性，必然是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境的調和。然後是在古典學理上，基於國家安全而限制憲法保障的自由與權利，必須已達有著手危害國家存在的具體措施之程度，若屬單純的意念表達，或是不具影響力的鼓吹，尚不足以具有限制人權的憲法上正當性。這個是您的回答，沒有錯吧？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這每個字都是您說的。因為我們是討論有關國家安全和人權保障，我看您剛剛的報告也相當注重人權的保障，但是您說是一種可能因社會政治因素不同而容有變動之可能性，必然是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境的調和。這可不可以再說清楚一點？怎麼好像讓大家覺得司法像月亮，初一、十五不一樣，所謂呼應社會現實需要的現實情境的調和，可以再舉實例說明嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：好，謝謝委員的提問，也謝謝委員讓我有說明的機會。國家安全它是一個不確定的法律概念，而且對國家安全而限制人權的管制強度跟手段也容有不同，它可能是一個初步行政管制的限制，也有可能是高密度的刑罰，或者是這個案例裡面的，甚至是驅逐出境。我的意思是說，在個案審查合憲性時，我們在衡酌公益跟私益，就回到剛剛委員第一張簡報檔裡面所談的比例原則，我們既要去關注那個公益事由的強度，也要關注它干預措施的強度。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，但你還是沒有舉例，我用例子來問您，釋字第644號有明確的解釋，人民團體法容許主管機關於許可設立人民團體前，得就人民主張共產主義，或主張分裂國土之政治上言論之內容而為審查，並作為不予許可設立之理由，顯已逾越必要之程度，與憲法保障人民結社自由和言論自由之意旨不符這是第644號的解釋。所以我想請問你下面這4個問題，第一個，主張共產主義是不是屬於言論自由？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：主張分裂國土是不是屬於言論自由？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：主張武統臺灣是不是屬於言論自由？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，主張用刑法第一百條辦在野黨立委是不是屬於言論自由？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：也是。"],["陳委員玉珍：以上這幾點，您都認為這是言論上的主張，應該跟第644號的看法是……"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：從基本權的角度，這個都是言論自由。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是這些都是一種主張，並沒有著手去實施嘛，對吧？你應該是從這個角度來出發。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這些都是言論自由，但是您看到最近我們國家做了哪樣的事情？我們國家對於主張武統的陸配驅逐出境，這等於是對人權上很大的侵害。你的說法跟陸委會的說法不太一樣，跟我們行政院說法不一樣，行政院就是陸委會，我們的行政機關認為主張武統臺灣不是言論自由，這是危害國家安全，那您的說法是嘛！所以我很擔心等一下如果民進黨委員詢問的時候……"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我可以補充說明嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：下一題，中華民國憲法增修條文第十一條規定，自由地區與大陸地區間人民權利義務關係及其他事務之處理，得以法律為特別之規定。就是臺灣地區與大陸地區兩岸人民關係條例，這個剛剛問過，請問您大陸地區人民是不是中華民國的人民？您剛剛說按照憲法增修條文來講是嘛。除了剛剛說的這一件因主張武統言論而被驅逐的陸配，其人權受到侵害以外，最近行政機關做一件事情，它要求陸配……您知道嗎？不知道你有沒有關心這個時事，就是很多陸配來臺灣已經很久了，2、30年，而且已經取得中華民國的身分證明，但是我們的政府機關說當時他們證件可能補不齊，所以要求他們補除籍證明，兩岸人民關係條例有規定設籍臺灣要繳交除籍證明。請問當時在給這些證件的時候，也許有補足也有補不足，但是在事後已經經過2、30年後，才又要求人民繳交當初應該繳交過的文件，請問在法理上、法律上可以追溯繳交當初應該繳交過的文件嗎？在行政措施上面，你的看法怎麼樣呢？您知道我在問的題目吧？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我了解，這個可能會涉及到如果當初在法律的規定裡面就必須繳交，但是只是行政便宜，讓相對人能夠延緩繳交的時程……"],["陳委員玉珍：但是那時候行政機關已經給他身分證明了。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，這就涉及到一個消極的行政不執法的作為可否作為信賴的基礎的問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，經過2、30年後，或者是有時效性，或是有怎樣的，我想請教您對這一點的看法呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：通常我們在學理上所講的信賴保護，或者是不得溯及適用，它的前提必須要有個積極的受益行政行為。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以您的意思是，我簡單說，因為當初是消極的行政不作為，所以現在要求他去補，當然我知道要求補是一定可以的，這個沒有問題，但是如果他沒有補的話，是不是可以因此而剝奪他的身分權，即中華民國國籍？他已經取得身分證了政府是否有權利做這樣對人權的侵害，跟所謂因為他沒有補交……以這種比例來講，您的看法呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我的看法倒是不會這麼樣非黑即白的……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是非黑即白，現在就要執行法律啊！是不是沒有繳交就應該被剝奪他中華民國國民的權利呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，我的意思是說，因為畢竟這是長年以來行政不積極執法的問題，在這樣的一個情況之下，我們在解決目前面臨到的困境，有沒有可能以一個比較折衷的方式來解決這個問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，那是後面的方式。但如果今天行政機關就說：好，三個月內、五個月內、一年內你沒有繳交，我就是要剝奪你這個身分，就是一樣驅逐出境。像剛剛那個武統陸配，他的言論自由，他被驅逐出境，那你也認為這樣是合憲的嗎？有沒有因為用國家安全的理由，或因為你以前行政的消極不作為而剝奪人民的人權呢？有沒有達到變成侵犯人權的結果呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是不是合憲……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，有沒有侵犯人權呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：人權當然有侵犯到，但誠如剛剛跟委員報告，其實我們在做……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果你身為大法官，這樣的事情到了憲法法庭，你會怎麼做判斷呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：還是要看個案當中，公益跟私益……"],["陳委員玉珍：我剛剛講的都是這樣的案子，普遍都是這樣的案子，已經是通案了。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有回答，沒關係。想請問你，剛剛我聽到你在跟陳昭姿委員詢答的時候，他說：馬英九總統、蔡英文總統、賴清德總統，憲法上有關總統兼任黨主席這件事情，我剛剛聽你的意見，好像你是贊同兼任嘛？因為政黨政治？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：他並不是違反憲法……"],["陳委員玉珍：並沒有違反憲法，但您是贊同嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：這個是政黨政治運作的形式，我個人尊重……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是贊成嘛？對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：尊重。"],["陳委員玉珍：贊成嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：所以現在是要進行政治意念的表態嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問您的看法嘛！當然尊重我們都尊重，我們也沒有辦法不尊重啊！您的想法，今天你如果當總統好了，你會兼任嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：從政黨政治的角度來講，我認為只要他不逾越憲法上作為總統職權的界限……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以您是贊成的。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：基本上是沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒問題啊，這個我沒有特定答案，我只是想知道您的想法跟您以前一貫主張的想法是不是一以貫之。","2015年的時候，我看到您有一個文章有寫到：總統、政黨與國會之相互關係──以政黨影響國政之憲法基礎及界線為中心。您的文章說到：「黨國分離原則」作為法理基礎，然國家與政黨間要保持一定距離，不容黨政不分。基於民主憲政體制所導出的黨政分離原則，政黨影響國政領導仍應有其憲法上的界限。所以如果以「黨主席」身分為國政影響之措施事實上難以清楚界分，則在我國憲政秩序下即應避免由總統兼任黨主席。上述國、民兩黨黨章的兼任規定，應該要刪除比較妥當。對吧？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在2015年的時候，您認為不應該黨政不分，就是說政黨的主席跟總統不應該兼任啦！但是你2025年的時候，想法可能就是覺得說：這個是政黨政治啦！所以也是一樣，初一、十五不一樣啦！","下一題，請問您中華民國憲法增修條文第十條第十二項，就是有關澎湖、金門、馬祖地區，國家應依照民族意願，要對教育文化、交通水利、衛生醫療、經濟土地及社會福利事業予以保障扶助並促其發展，其辦法另以法律定之。這是針對原住民，對金、馬、澎的民眾也一樣要做這樣憲法上的保障。我想請您看一下我們金門鄉親實際上遇到的困境，你看一下這個圖，你看這是金門的禁限制水域，這個是中華民國劃的，依照兩岸人民關係條例二十九條規定，是禁止大陸的船進入這個水域裡頭。「禁限制水域」，就是圖上紅色跟黑色的，有沒有看到？禁止跟限制水域，禁限制水域，因為金門離大陸很近，您理解嘛，在廈門的旁邊。所以我們把它劃起來，禁止大陸船跑到金門的禁限制水域裡頭，您看懂了嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那它這個意思是怎麼樣？就是禁限制大陸的船舶跑進來。相對的，我想請問您，海巡署在執法的時候，反倒是禁止金門的漁船不能超出這個禁限制水域，跨出去就變成要被起訴，這個禁限水域原來是在限制大陸的，今天變成我們畫地自限啊！金門的漁民的權利呢？他反而不能跑出這個禁限制水域裡頭，您覺得這樣沒有侵犯到我們金門漁民捕撈的權利嗎？他們只能在這個圈圈裡頭捕撈，不能超過這條線，這條線原來是禁止大陸進來的，反而今天執法單位變成禁止金門漁民出去，您覺得這樣是正確的嗎？然後把他們都移送到地檢署，好幾百件！"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：因為我對這個的前提狀況不是很清楚……"],["陳委員玉珍：好。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果按照剛剛委員所描述的事況，我會理解為那個禁制區域確實就是一個禁止大陸地區，或是外國的漁船進入……"],["陳委員玉珍：當初劃的時候是這樣沒錯，兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條規定的，為什麼現在執法單位變成禁止金門漁民出去？把我們自己劃起來，畫地自限，劃起來，然後如果船開出去的漁民，全部被移送到金門縣政府，金門現在有數百件，這種執法有依法執行嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：紅線以外是中華民國的領海管轄區域嗎？這個我不太清楚。"],["陳委員玉珍：當然是中華民國啊，只是因為我們離大陸近，就劃起來不讓大陸進來，結果我們出去也犯法，這個東西是不是有疑問？你覺得有疑問嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：因為我對於基礎事實跟法律……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，基礎事實就是我跟你講的這樣，如果我講的不對，當然答案就不會是這樣。我的基礎事實就是這條線，禁限制水域，就是兩岸人民關係條例第二十九條規定的，禁止大陸漁船進來，現在我們人民出去了，他說金門漁民也不能出去，這樣違法，然後被送到地檢署，而且有幾百件。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果立法的目的是在禁止外船進入的話，那這樣的規範確實容有商榷的餘地，但是前提就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我剛剛有講，前提就是這樣，所以這樣的執行會變成怎樣？我剛剛沒有聽清楚，你說如果立法規範確實是這樣子，我有提立法規範，確實是這樣。那現在相關單位、主管單位這樣執行法律會變成怎樣？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：逾越立法的目的。"],["陳委員玉珍：逾越立法目的，好，謝謝您。","再請問您，我們國家現在在跟美國討論關稅，美國可能提出一個條件，就是針對美牛跟美豬進口的部分，要求我們放寬萊克多巴胺（萊劑），包括標示，這個牽扯到中央跟地方，剛剛陳委員問到那一題臺中也是中央跟地方。如果我們國家在關稅談判以後，我們接受美國的條件，萊豬、萊牛這些進來的時候不標示產地，殘留標準比照國際原則，就是接受美國的條件，接受進來以後，請問各個地方政府可不可以基於保障學生的營養午餐健康，為了學生健康自行要求，比如說，我是金門縣，我要求在金門地區的豬或是牛標示不是含有萊克多巴胺？這是中央跟地方的權限，您的看法如何？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：在萊豬案的前提之下，要不要標示含有萊克多巴胺，我個人認為這是地方容有自行決定的空間，但是如果今天我們的情況改變，就是透過新的規範，將標示義務的規範入法……"],["陳委員玉珍：標示義務的規範入法。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：因為它有一個跟當初做萊案時不同的法規範基礎，那就另當別論，但是在沒有改變的情況下……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，以現在的情形。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我認為標示跟食材的選用，這個是地方有空間的。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，您的意思就是說，假設今天談判的結果，對於萊豬、萊牛，我們因為美國要扣關進來，所以我們就答應了美國讓含有萊克多巴胺的豬跟牛進口，然後不用標示，讓他們進來，讓他們不標示有沒有含萊克多巴胺。但是進口這個，您之前有提到殘留標準等這些標準是由中央訂定，這您有回答到，但是地方是不是要採用或地方要不要標示，比如說我是金門縣政府，我就決定為了保障我們金門地區學生營養午餐的安全，我們就要求要使用在學生的營養午餐上面一定要標示，這是合憲的，對吧？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，因為萊豬案法院的判決，憲法法庭判決的射程範圍不及於標示的部分，它只去處理關於萊劑指定的權限是在中央或地方而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝您。在我們的問卷裡頭，您也有提到，德國聯邦憲法法院曾經以危害自由民主憲政秩序、國家安全為由，將兩個敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散，這是您提到的，德國有做過將敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散。請問如果主張消滅中華民國憲法，另外創制新憲法，在德國聯邦憲法法院標準裡頭，是不是符合解散政黨的要件？您看一下這個題目，我再提示一下，憲法訴訟法第七十七條……"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果只是單純……"],["陳委員玉珍：我把這條唸完：「政黨之目的或行為，危害中華民國之存在或自由民主之憲政秩序者，主管機關得聲請憲法法庭為宣告政黨解散之判決。」你也有提到，德國的聯邦憲法法院說：「以危害自由、民主、秩序、國家安全，把敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散。」所以如果我們今天國內有一個政黨主張消滅中華民國憲法，要另外創制一個新憲法，是不是符合解散政黨的要件？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果他們的主張是認為我們現行的憲法不合時宜而另行制憲，不影響到中華民國的存續，我認為這個部分不會構成違憲。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，意思就是，假設今天中華民國繼續存在，但是可能把中華民國國號改為臺灣共和國、臺澎金馬共和國、金門共和國，這也是合憲的，是嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：這個跟剛剛那個情況就不一樣，因為它的國家主權的統一性可能就會改變。我剛剛回答的前提是在認同中華民國主權的前提之下，我們制定一部新的憲法，這個是可以的。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是可以的。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我認為沒有違憲的問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是把它改名可不可以呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：這個就會涉及國家存續的危害問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以不能改名，但是可以制定新憲？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：對，這是制憲力的行使，沒有問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳委員、謝謝被提名人。","下一位請陳俊宇委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"163119","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163119","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b5e055a90b8258734e71d587566aeaab6eb4b0aafec90296d28abf62da49b1b6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"14:40:18 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有請備體名人曾教授請備體名人答詢委員好"},{"start":17.762,"end":35.821,"text":"背題裡面詹教授您好我想先請你看兩張圖這兩張圖都是來自內政部跟主計總處的官方數據左邊這張圖告訴我們從2020年開始台灣就進入人口的負成長也就是說出生的人數遠低於"},{"start":36.842,"end":61.684,"text":"死亡的人數那右邊這張圖是告訴我們過去十年來從2015年出生人口數從22萬、21萬一直到去年的農年13.8萬那今年上半年現在是6.6萬預期不會超過13萬因此生育問題不再是某一些人選擇要不要生育的問題"},{"start":62.845,"end":83.588,"text":"我覺得是整個社會能不能生有沒有辦法生的一個結構性的困境我想請教被提名人當自然生育沒有辦法去支撐世代交替的時候例如有人因為疾病因為器官缺損等等即便他有胚胎也沒有辦法植入"},{"start":84.93,"end":104.245,"text":"所以該思考的問題是不是國家應該要有義務給予更多元更可行的一條生育路徑而不是一味的去禁止它所以首先我想跟你談的就是憲法下的生育自主跟家庭形成的這樣的一個保障"},{"start":105.406,"end":132.791,"text":"您在書面意見中有提及代理育母制度不再是社會上極少數族群的期盼願望或是需求而已而是當代社會環境下地球公民已經開始要面臨的共通問題且代孕的急迫性與成熟度在立法政策上逐漸提升本席非常認同您的見解雖然您認為目前尚未形成社會共識還需要進一步觀察進展但是請問您是否同意"},{"start":133.271,"end":156.898,"text":"如果社會共識永遠無法達成其實我不知道世界上有沒有所謂的共識社會共識如果永遠無法自然形成社會共識那您是否同意國家應該要積極扮演協助制度化的一個這樣的角色國家是不是有義務要去建構有效監督的一個法治的一個選項請貝提琳回答"},{"start":157.779,"end":173.789,"text":"好 謝謝委員您的提問陳如我在回覆民眾黨黨團的問卷裡面所表示的立場我是支持在目前少子化或者是委員您剛所提到的諸多因素"},{"start":174.788,"end":195.832,"text":"之下當生育自然的生育不再具有可能性的時候應該容許有多元的選擇路徑那我也補充說明我在裡面會提到社會共識其實是針對代理孕母裡面孕母"},{"start":196.809,"end":223.267,"text":"跟子女之間有血緣的這一個部分但是我的立場不是說一定要有共識才可以立法我瞭解 等一下我會再繼續請教您這個部分根據聯合國2024年的世界生育報告台灣去年的總生育率是全世界倒數前幾名只有0.86從生不如死的這個數據來看生育就不是個人選擇問題現在已經進入台灣社會的一個"},{"start":224.588,"end":240.591,"text":"人口危機跟公共政策請問您是否同意國家有必要重新對我們的人工生殖法的部分就是全面禁止代孕的部分要重新檢討來因應人民有生育自主跟家庭形成的一個保障"},{"start":242.081,"end":269.623,"text":"來檢討這個好謝謝那您在書面回覆也提到剛剛你剛剛要解釋的話待遇若涉及人工受精模式會涉及親子關係跟奴隸關係的爭議會比較大需要特別審慎那我這裡要要說的就是說本黨所提供提出來的這個人工生殖法的修法版本並沒有納入人工受精這個待遇模式喔而是限定在試管嬰兒胚胎植入的模式那請問你"},{"start":270.524,"end":284.843,"text":"這樣是不是比較符合比例原則跟基本權的保障也比較合乎這個憲法的期待呢是 因為它的爭議性比較少立法難度比較低所以您是支持這樣的一個版本是的謝謝"},{"start":287.061,"end":312.93,"text":"目前人工生殖法第11條採的是正面表列規定只有符合不孕症跟重大遺傳性疾病的情況的夫妻而且一方至少要具備健康的生殖細胞才能夠進行人工生殖也就是說一對合法的夫妻即便他們經過醫師的專業評估認為適合用試管胚胎來進行待遇也不得為之"},{"start":314.19,"end":337.735,"text":"那現行的法也未開放任何形態的一個代孕技術使得醫療機構面對這樣的個案或這樣的病人的時候他們因為法律的障礙不敢去施作那您認為這樣是不是可能過度排除了某些其他有需求的族群例如卵巢摘除、子宮摘除這是否構成對生育自主其實是有不合理的一個差別代孕呢"},{"start":339.231,"end":359.228,"text":"我是支持在這樣的一個方案底下將代理育母制度於納入法律的明文肯認感謝貝提米人那面對節節上升社會需求嘛最近我們看到的是民進黨政府在待遇議題上是以拖待變先騙再說啦一再用脫鉤"},{"start":360.709,"end":379.492,"text":"為藉口其實根本想放手那即便國際間現在已經有數十個國家他是在嚴格監管條件下允許特定形式的一個代孕那也有很多篇已經發表了這個實證醫學的研究顯示只要在妥善的支持跟規範下有代孕媽媽所生出來的兒童其實在"},{"start":380.392,"end":403.385,"text":"在社會跟心理的發展上它都沒有在統計學具有意義的一個負面的影響這是有證據的那另外我要談的就是說針對代孕可能造成的剝削的這個部分的討論第三屆國大代表那個莊盛榮律師他有指出合法化不等於放任喔相反的因為代孕具有爭議性更需要法律制度來納入專業審查醫療安全"},{"start":406.066,"end":427.455,"text":"還有這個心理評估跟契約的保障能夠讓守護每一方的這個權利讓孩子擁有完整的法律的這個保護跟這個家庭的支持如果繼續封鎖這條路大禮物不會消失而且會進入更黑暗更危險更不正義請問被提名的您贊同這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":428.91,"end":454.317,"text":"我贊成在代理育母的議題上面導政是優於目前的意志我的理由在於或許目前在某些團體他會擔心代理育母制度的導入會違反人性尊嚴也就是所謂的將子宮給工具化我個人基本的立場是"},{"start":456.161,"end":482.997,"text":"在這樣的一個代理育母的合法化的情況之下我們其實是可以透過法治的設計去免除這個疑慮謝謝貝提名人因為幾十個國家都有了我們是可以來規範接下來我要請教貝提名人在江雅琦教授的這個學位造假的學術論理案您是否有參與出審審查工作並且擔任副召集人請你回答是或不是是"},{"start":483.997,"end":501.249,"text":"那在2021年11月出審審查小組認定江雅琪連續9年她在申請科技部相關的文件上她載入或使人登載法學博士學位造假虛構不存在的一個博士學位名稱"},{"start":502.43,"end":520.051,"text":"這個情節嚴重的影響科技部審查的判斷而且是資源分配的公正問題所以當時的這個小組他一致決議是停權三年等處分請問是不是有這件事情您是否支持或同意這樣的一個決議內容"},{"start":521.994,"end":540.868,"text":"我是學倫小組的一個成員之一也是代表學門進入到誠信班確實有這樣的一個決議跟內容你也確實擔任副召集人那這個決議也是大家的共識那江雅琪當時是台電董事喔你們當初書審小組做出的這樣的建議卻在學倫審議會上"},{"start":543.888,"end":563.938,"text":"被台電的訴訟代理人萬國法律事務所陳鵬光律師主導推翻了這樣結果你能接受嗎當初我在國科會的誠信辦代表學門去做陳述意見的事我有"},{"start":565.374,"end":591.856,"text":"堅決的表達學門的立場但是他被推翻了嘛他被推翻了那我要問的就是這個陳鵬光律師當時是否有利益衝突應該迴避審查呢我的印象是當初在開會之前有討論這件事情後來學陳姓辦的委員決議不需要利益迴避但是他本身不但他是這個"},{"start":593.598,"end":608.65,"text":"台電的訴訟代理人啊然後江雅琦是台電的董事啊陳某關不僅沒有迴避審查還主導審查推翻這個決議然後護航江雅琦非常的離譜啊您支持嗎您支持這樣的做法嗎"},{"start":609.15,"end":635.64,"text":"我跟委員報告當時現場的情況當初在討論利益迴避的時候如果我的印象是正確的那個時候所提出來的室友是好像是大學同學還是同班並沒有提到台電我現在告訴你一個是台電董事一個是台電的訴訟代理人你認為這樣沒有利益的衝突嗎"},{"start":636.943,"end":656.69,"text":"您的見解呢?如果確實有計劃案件的關聯性的話應該要迴避吧?是好,謝謝,謝謝貝提名人我進入下一個問題前,我想先請教你你認為我國的總統應該是全民的總統、全民的領袖還是特定政黨的超級領袖呢?"},{"start":657.45,"end":678.689,"text":"是中華民國的總統當然是國家的總統好謝謝你2009年民進黨黨主席蔡英文公開批評馬英九總統兼任黨主席會讓台灣的憲政進入極大的風險他認為總統不應該身兼黨主席這樣會造成權力分立的失衡蔡英文總統會這樣說是因為我國現在是半總統制"},{"start":682.272,"end":709.34,"text":"總統同時兼任黨主席他可以直接領導黨務而且可以掌握整個黨發展的方向總統一個人同時掌握行政權跟立法權會破壞在目前的辦總統制下總統和國會互相制衡的一個關係請問貝提米爾您剛剛也提到您是公法專家嘛您也即將擔任大法官從您對憲法的認知對台灣目前這個辦總統制下蔡英文這樣講對不對"},{"start":712.269,"end":730.72,"text":"我的認知至少從憲法的規範角度來講並沒有明文的禁止這個執政黨或是總統不可以兼任黨主席因為這是一個政治事務跟憲法事務的區隔那當然在這邊"},{"start":732.583,"end":755.351,"text":"基本上我不反對可以兼任黨主席但是要有憲法上的分際也就是在執行憲法職權時謝謝詹教授 我們等一下繼續討論結果言猶在有蔡英文她在2016年或2020年擔任總統時她都身兼了黨主席那現在的總統賴清德也是身兼了黨主席"},{"start":755.911,"end":778.508,"text":"但是不管是馬英九、蔡英文或賴清德任期內憲法都沒有再修正過喔台灣依舊是半總統制那過去被人家討論的或是蔡英文總統講得那麼清楚的憲政危機權利分立失衡難道會因為換人執政換黨執政就不存在或消失了嗎不會不會好 謝謝你"},{"start":780.558,"end":804.753,"text":"那所以總統兼任黨主席在台灣目前的這個半總統制度下有權無責嘛有權無責不僅破壞憲政體制造成權力分立的一個失衡更是全面的棄守全民總統的格局成為特定政黨的超級領袖我想要強調你望遠全世界民主程度越低的國家"},{"start":805.693,"end":827.079,"text":"他這個權力失衡權力分立失衡的情況是越嚴重的我想請教貝提米您是否同意台灣應該要開啟檢討總統跟政黨主席角色重疊的問題避免讓政黨利益高於或凌駕在國家利益之上呢您同意可以開啟這樣的檢討嗎"},{"start":830.345,"end":858.054,"text":"這樣的一個思索的方向當然在我們的整個憲政體制的進展當中我覺得是一個可以思考的命題但是我也跟委員報告在當代的憲政運作民主的體制之下他跟政黨政治是難以脫鉤的我理解那個曾教授就是說"},{"start":860.296,"end":876.001,"text":"檢討還是可以啟動的嘛因為還是有人尤其是當事人自己提出這樣的一個見解嘛那如此我覺得才能讓我們好不容易得來的這個自由民主價值繼續深化讓整個國家社會是一個處於一個比較穩定的狀況接下來是國會改革問題"},{"start":876.741,"end":901.129,"text":"您的問卷回覆中針對113年憲判制第九號提出不同意見主要有三個部分您的見解跟憲法法庭判決不同分別是總統到立法院國情報告官員缺席被刑時得罰還以及公務員不配合調查的時候得移送監察院這些都被判違憲了但是您問卷中的回覆是認為可以進行核限制的"},{"start":901.829,"end":929.97,"text":"解釋本席先肯定您有提出不同意見的勇氣那我再來請教首先是總統的國情報告賴清德在競選的時候說總統是有義務到立法院做國情報告但是憲法法庭卻說總統並無到立法院做國情報告的義務請問被提名人到底是賴總統說錯了還是憲法法庭解釋錯了總統到底有沒有義務到立法院來做國情報告呢"},{"start":930.745,"end":947.963,"text":"以目前憲法的規範是沒有是有的沒有義務沒有義務可以到立法院來報告但是您的見解是可以是我的見解是那一個職權行使法可以做合憲性解釋"},{"start":948.644,"end":965.539,"text":"是可以做核心的解釋那一個因其實是解釋成不具有拘束性去年國會改革修法如果官員無故缺席被尋或是故意拒打立委的質詢經院會決議可以處以罰款後來被憲法法庭又判違憲了"},{"start":966.66,"end":988.045,"text":"所以這個會議就出現行政院秘書長龔明星他缺席委員會然後國安會秘書長吳釗燮甚至兩度缺席但立法院卻對缺席的委員毫無沒有辦法去克責請問被提名人你認為對於官員沒有辦法盡他的政治責任時給予法律的制裁這樣有違憲嗎"},{"start":991.067,"end":1001.864,"text":"我們在司法院釋字585號的解釋裡面當初大法官的判決是肯認"},{"start":1003.649,"end":1018.565,"text":"對於不遵守違反國會調查權跟質詢權的官員是可以以行政裁罰的方式因為這是確保調查權有效實施的附屬權利"},{"start":1021.247,"end":1035.501,"text":"其實民進黨在野的時候他非常支持國會要有聽證調查權那去年國會改革的修法也賦予立法院調查權而且對於不配合調查的機關政府機關或是公務員可以移送監察院進行糾正糾舉或彈劾"},{"start":1037.282,"end":1053.157,"text":"但這個部分竟然也被判違憲了您在書面回覆有提到說認為這個修法可以解讀成是對機關或是公務人員為師的一個檢舉那促使監察權的這個職權發動而已應該沒有違憲可不可以請你稍微再說明一下"},{"start":1054.529,"end":1070.214,"text":"這個在憲判第九號的解釋理由書大法官有做一個說明他說即使是檢舉也會造成憲政機關之間的一個可能是恐怖平衡的失衡"},{"start":1071.194,"end":1085.043,"text":"不過我個人認為這個當然作為有權解釋我尊重憲判的見解但是我個人認為這個部分其實就是一種檢舉促使有權機關去發動他的職權"},{"start":1087.624,"end":1109.256,"text":"謝謝您因為您在書面這樣回答我也希望大家能夠聽到您公開的一個說明那我再請教貝提敏人根據我國憲政體制下的全職全立分立制度地方政府在自治事項上具有一定程度的自主性中央政府應該是秉持輔導性的原則不要輕易的介入或否決地方的立法"},{"start":1109.796,"end":1126.705,"text":"然而台中市政府依生煤自治條例開罰中火超量使用生煤一案中卻遭行政院以部分條文違反空污法為由 橫告無效當地方政府提起行政訴訟的時候最高行政法院也認為"},{"start":1128.065,"end":1153.962,"text":"應由憲法法庭來解釋而不提供實質救濟也就是中央一紙函告那地方政府就只能吞下去只能接受您認為這樣符合憲法中保障的地方自治跟垂直分權的原則嗎如果我的資訊沒有錯誤這個案件應該目前有申請憲法訴訟有沒有受理我不確定"},{"start":1154.932,"end":1172.569,"text":"所以以下我只能做一般式的認證我想請問台中市政府他更嚴格的一個環境保護開發中國是否也屬於地方自治合理的一個範疇呢至少就空汙而言我個人的基本立場是地方"},{"start":1174.23,"end":1199.901,"text":"並不完全沒有權限空屋這個防治的環境保護本來就是應該一個因地制宜的一個做法可是當時這個這個台中市政府依法開罰中火這個一千八百萬元結果當時環保署禁制撤銷罰單喔那台北這個高層環環境部是沒有權限這樣做的啦我覺得現在是進行中那我想我最後要告訴"},{"start":1200.781,"end":1218.644,"text":"被提名人就說大法官本來就是一個獨立的標杆但大法官做出裁決說應該要秉持公正跟獨立超然的精神請問你,你有這個信心跟決心當你成為大法官之後,您可以超然獨立的行使你的職權嗎?好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝被提名人的答詢"},{"start":1232.542,"end":1239.42,"text":"蘇巧慧委員之詢問已書面提出列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請陳玉珍委員詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":16,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（14時40分）謝謝主席，有請被提名人詹教授。"],["主席：請被提名人答詢。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：被提名人詹教授，您好。我想先請你看兩張圖，這兩張圖都是來自內政部跟主計總處的官方數據，左邊這張圖告訴我們，從2020年開始臺灣就進入人口的負成長，也就是說，出生的人數遠低於死亡的人數；右邊這張圖告訴我們，過去十年來，從2015年的出生人口數22萬、21萬，一直到去年（龍年）的13.8萬，今年上半年是6.6萬，預期不會超過13萬。因此生育問題不再是某一些人選擇要不要生的問題，我覺得是整個社會能不能生、有沒有辦法生的一個結構性困境。我想請教被提名人，當自然生育沒有辦法去支撐世代交替的時候，例如有人因為疾病、因為器官缺損等等，即便他有胚胎，也沒有辦法植入啊，所以該思考的問題是不是國家應該要有義務給予一條更多元、更可行的生育路徑，而不是一味的去禁止它？所以首先我想跟你談的就是憲法下的生育自主跟家庭形成的保障。","您在書面意見中有提及，代理孕母制度不再是社會上極少數族群的期盼、願望，或是需求而已，而是當代社會環境下，地球公民已經開始要面臨的共通問題，且代孕的急迫性與成熟度在立法政策上逐漸提升。本席非常認同您的見解，雖然您認為目前尚未形成社會共識，還需要進一步觀察這個進展。其實我不知道世界上有沒有所謂的社會共識，如果永遠無法自然形成社會共識，那您是否同意國家應該積極扮演協助制度化的角色？國家是不是有義務要去建構一個有效監督的法制選項？請被提名人回答。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：謝謝委員的提問，誠如我在回覆民眾黨黨團的問卷裡面所表示的立場，我是支持在目前少子化或者是委員剛剛所提到的諸多因素之下，當自然的生育不再具有可能性的時候，應該容許有多元的選擇路徑。我也補充說明，我在裡面會提到社會共識，其實是針對代理孕母裡面，孕母跟子女之間有血緣的這個部分，但是我的立場不是說一定要有共識才可以立法。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝詹教授，我了解，等一下我會再繼續請教您這個部分。","根據聯合國2024年的世界生育報告，臺灣去年的總生育率是全世界倒數前幾名，只有0.86。從生不如死的這個數據來看，生育就不是個人選擇的問題，現在已經進入臺灣社會的人口危機跟公共政策。請問您是否同意，國家有必要對我們的人工生殖法中全面禁止代孕的部分重新檢討，來因應人民有生育自主跟家庭形成的保障？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我贊同。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。您在書面回覆也提到，剛剛你要解釋的，代孕若涉及人工授精模式，涉及親子關係跟倫理關係的爭議會比較大，需要特別審慎。我這裡要說的是，本黨所提出來的人工生殖法修法版本，並沒有納入人工授精這個代理孕母模式，而是限定在試管嬰兒胚胎植入的模式，請問這樣是不是比較符合比例原則跟基本權的保障，也比較合於憲法的期待呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是，因為它的爭議性比較少，所以立法難度比較低。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以您是支持這樣的版本？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。目前人工生殖法第十一條採的是正面表列，規定只有符合不孕症跟重大遺傳性疾病情況的夫妻，而且一方至少要具備健康的生殖細胞，才能夠進行人工生殖。也就是說，一對合法的夫妻，即便他們經過醫師的專業評估，認為適合用試管胚胎來進行代孕，也不得為之。現行法也未開放任何型態的代孕技術，使得醫療機構面對這樣的個案或這樣的病人的時候，他們會因為法律的障礙而不敢去施作。您認為這樣是不是過度排除了某些其他有需求的族群，例如卵巢摘除、子宮摘除的人？這是否構成對生育自主其實是有不合理的差別待遇？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我是支持在這樣的方案下，將代理孕母制度予以納入法律的明文肯認……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，感謝被提名人。面對節節上升的社會需求，至今我們看到的是民進黨政府在代孕議題上以拖待變、先騙再說，一再用脫鈎為藉口，其實根本想放手，即便國際間現在已經有數十個國家在嚴格監管條件下允許特定形式的代孕，也有很多篇已經發表實證醫學的研究顯示，只要在妥善的支持跟規範下，由代孕媽媽所生出來的兒童，其實在社會跟心理的發展上，都沒有在統計學上具有有意義的負面影響，這是有證據的。","另外，我要談的就是針對代孕可能造成剝削的討論，第三屆國大代表莊勝榮律師有指出，合法化不等於放任，相反的，正因為代孕具有爭議性，更需要法律制度納入專業審查、醫療安全、心理評估與契約的保障，能夠守護每一方的權利，讓孩子擁有完整的法律保護跟家庭支持，如果繼續封鎖這條路，代理孕母不會消失，而是會進入更黑暗、更危險、更不正義。請問被提名人，您贊同這樣的說法嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我贊成在代理孕母的議題上面導正優於目前的抑制，我的理由在於，或許目前某些團體擔心代理孕母制度的導入會違反人性尊嚴，也就是所謂的將子宮給工具化。我個人基本的立場是，在這樣一個代理孕母合法化的情況之下，我們其實是可以透過法制的設計去免除這個疑慮。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝被提名人，因為幾十個國家都有了，我們可以來規範嘛！","接下來我要請教被提名人，在江雅綺教授學位造假的學術倫理案，您是否有參與初審審查工作並且擔任副召集人？請你回答是或不是。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：在2021年11月，初審審查小組認定江雅綺連續九年在科技部相關的申請文件上，記載或使人登載為法學博士，學位造假、虛構不存在的博士學位名稱，這個情節嚴重影響科技部的審查判斷，而且是資源分配的公正問題，所以當時這個小組一致決議是停權三年等處分，請問是不是有這件事情？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：您是否支持或同意這樣一個決議內容？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我是學倫小組的成員之一，也是代表學門進入到誠信辦……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，確實有這樣一個決議跟內容，你也確實擔任副召集人，這個決議也是大家的共識。好，那江雅綺當時是台電董事喔，當初你們初審小組做出這樣的建議，卻在學倫審議會上被台電的訴訟代理人萬國法律事務所陳鵬光律師主導推翻了，這樣的結果你能接受嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：當初我在國科會的誠信辦代表學門去做陳述意見的時候，我有堅決的表達學門的立場。"],["陳委員昭姿：是，了解，但是它被推翻了嘛！"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：它被推翻了！我要問的就是，陳鵬光律師當時是否有利益衝突，應該迴避審查呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我的印象是，當初在開會之前有討論這件事情，後來誠信辦的委員決議不需要利益迴避。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是他本身是台電的訴訟代理人，江雅綺是台電的董事，陳鵬光律師不僅沒有迴避審查，還主導審查、推翻這個決議，然後護航江雅綺，非常的離譜，您支持嗎？您支持這樣的作法嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我跟委員報告當時現場的情況，當初在討論利益迴避的時候，如果我的印象是正確的，那個時候所提出來的事由好像是大學同學還是同班，並沒有提到台電這件事情……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那被提名人，我現在告訴你，一個是台電董事，一個是台電的訴訟代理人，你們認為這樣沒有利益的衝突嗎？您的見解呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果確實有……"],["陳委員昭姿：確實是怎樣？兩個的身分……"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：計畫案件的關聯性……"],["陳委員昭姿：應該要迴避吧？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝，謝謝被提名人。","進入下個問題之前，我想先請教您，您認為我國的總統應該是全民的總統、全民的領袖還是特定政黨的超級領袖呢？你認為？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：中華民國的總統，當然是國家的總統。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝你。2009年民進黨黨主席蔡英文公開批評馬英九，說總統兼任黨主席會讓臺灣的憲政面臨極大的風險，他認為總統不應該身兼黨主席，這樣會造成權力分立的失衡。蔡英文總統會這樣說是因為我國現在是半總統制，總統同時兼任黨主席可以直接領導黨務，而且可以掌握整個黨發展的方向。總統一個人同時掌握行政權跟立法權，會破壞在目前的半總統制下，總統和國會互相制衡的關係。請問被提名人，您剛剛也提到您是公法專家，您也即將擔任大法官，從您對憲法的認知，對臺灣目前這個半總統制下，蔡英文這樣講對不對？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我的認知，至少從憲法的規範角度來講，並沒有明文禁止執政黨或是總統不可以兼任黨主席，因為這是一個政治事務跟憲法事務的區隔。當然在這邊，基本上我不反對可以兼任黨主席，但是要有憲法上的分際，也就是在執行憲法職權時……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝詹教授，我們等一下繼續討論。","言猶在耳，結果蔡英文在2016年以及2020年擔任總統時都身兼黨主席，現在的總統賴清德也身兼黨主席，但不管是馬英九、蔡英文或賴清德至今的任期內，憲法都沒有再修正過，臺灣依舊是半總統制。過去被人家討論的，或是蔡英文總統講得那麼清楚的憲政危機，權力分立失衡，難道會因為換人執政、換黨執政就不存在或消失了嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：不會。"],["陳委員昭姿：不會，好，謝謝你。所以，總統兼任黨主席在臺灣目前的半總統制度下形同有權無責，不僅破壞憲政體制，造成權力分立的失衡，更是全面的棄守全民總統的格局，成為特定政黨的超級領袖。我想要強調，你放眼全世界，民主程度越低的國家，權力分立失衡的情況是越嚴重的。我想請教被提名人，您是否同意，臺灣應該要開啟檢討，檢討總統跟政黨主席角色重疊的問題，避免讓政黨利益高於或凌駕在國家利益之上？您同意可以開啟這樣的檢討嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：這樣的一個思索的方向，當然在我們整個憲政體制的進展當中，我覺得是一個可以思考的命題。但是我也跟委員報告，在當代憲政運作的民主體制之下，他跟政黨政治是難以脫鈎的。"],["陳委員昭姿：我理解，詹教授，就是說檢討還是可以啟動的嘛？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為還是有人，尤其是當事人自己提出這樣的見解，如此我覺得才能讓我們好不容易得來的自由民主價值繼續深化，讓整個國家社會處於一個比較穩定的狀況。","接下來是國會改革的問題，您的問卷回復中針對113年憲判字第9號提出不同意見，主要有三個部分您的見解跟憲法法庭判決不同，分別是總統到立法院國情報告、官員缺席備詢時得處以罰鍰，以及公務員不配合調查的時候得移送監察院，這些都被判違憲，但是您的問卷回復是認為可以進行合憲性解釋，本席先肯定您有提出不同意見的勇氣。","我再來請教，首先是總統的國情報告，賴清德在競選的時候說，總統有義務到立法院做國情報告，但是憲法法庭卻說，總統並無到立法院做國情報告的義務。請問被提名人，到底是賴總統說錯了？還是憲法法庭解釋錯了？總統到底有沒有義務到立法院來做國情報告呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：以目前憲法的規範是沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，是有的？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：沒有、沒有義務。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有義務？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：他可以到立法院報告。"],["陳委員昭姿：他可以到立法院來報告？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是您的見解是認為可以做合憲性解釋？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我的見解是那一個職權行使法可以做合憲性解釋。"],["陳委員昭姿：是可以做合憲性解釋。"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：把那一個「應」，其實是解釋成不具有拘束性。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝被提名人。去年國會改革修法，如果官員無故缺席備詢，或是故意拒答立委的質詢，經院會決議可以處以罰鍰，後來又被憲法法庭判違憲了，所以這個會期就出現行政院秘書長龔明鑫缺席委員會，然後國安會秘書長吳釗燮甚至兩度缺席，但立法院卻沒有辦法對缺席的人課責。請問被提名人，對於官員沒有辦法盡他的政治責任時給予法律的制裁，您認為這樣有違憲嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：我們在司法院釋字第585號解釋裡面，當初大法官的判決是肯認對於不遵守、違反國會調查權跟質詢權的官員，可以以行政裁罰的方式處理，因為這是確保調查權有效實施的附屬權力。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝被提名人。你提到了調查權，其實民進黨在野的時候非常支持國會要有聽證調查權，去年國會改革的修法也賦予立法院調查權，而且對於不配合調查的機關、政府機關或是公務員，可以移送監察院進行糾正、糾舉或彈劾，但這個部分竟然也被判違憲。您在書面回復有提到，認為這個修法可以解讀成是對機關或是公務人員違失的一個檢舉，促使監察權的職權發動而已，應該沒有違憲，可不可以請你稍微再說明一下？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：在憲判第9號的解釋理由書，大法官有做一個說明，他說即使是檢舉，也會造成憲政機關之間的一個……可能是恐怖平衡的失衡，這個當然作為有權解釋，我尊重憲判的見解，但是我個人認為，這個部分其實就是一種檢舉，促使有權機關去發動它的職權。"],["陳委員昭姿：是，謝謝您。因為您在書面這樣回答，我也希望大家能夠聽到您公開的一個說明。","我再請教被提名人，根據我國憲政體制下的垂直權力分立制度，地方政府在自治事項上，具有一定程度的自主性，中央政府應該是秉持輔導性的原則，不要輕易地介入或否決地方的立法。然而，臺中市政府依生煤自治條例開罰中火超量使用生煤一案中，卻遭行政院以部分條文違反空污法為由，函告無效。當地方政府提起行政訴訟的時候，最高行政法院也認為應由憲法法庭解釋，而不提供實質救濟。也就是中央一紙函告，地方政府就只能吞下去、只能接受，您認為這樣符合憲法中保障的地方自治跟垂直分權的原則嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：如果我的資訊沒有錯誤，這個案件目前應該有聲請憲法訴訟，有沒有受理我不確定，所以以下我只能做一般式的原則……"],["陳委員昭姿：還在進行中。我想請問，臺中市政府依更嚴格的環境保護開罰中火，是否也屬於地方自治合理的一個範疇呢？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：至少就空污而言，我個人的基本立場是，地方並不完全沒有權限。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝被提名人。空污防制的環境保護本來就應該是一個因地制宜的作法，可是當時臺中市政府依法開罰中火1,800萬元，結果當時環保署逕自撤銷罰單，臺北高等法院判決環境部是沒有權限這樣做的，這個現在是進行中。","我最後要告訴被提名人，大法官本來就是一個獨立的標竿，當大法官做出裁決的時候應該要秉持公正跟獨立超然的精神。請問您有這個信心跟決心，當您成為大法官之後，您可以超然獨立的行使您的職權嗎？您點頭嗎？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：有。"],["陳委員昭姿：您可以做得到？"],["詹鎮榮被提名人：可以。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝，謝謝被提名人。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝被提名人的答詢。","蘇巧慧委員之詢問以書面提出，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員蘇巧慧書面詢問：","正如被提名人口頭報告所言「大法官為民主法治國家憲政秩序的最後守護者」，是維繫我國自由民主憲政秩序體制重要的一環。而本席作為法律人，能夠參與司法院大法官的提名也是很榮幸的事。然而，對於我國現在身處的危機與窘境，本席卻難以樂觀。從去（2024）年10月31日七位大法官任期屆滿後卸任，司法院正副院長和大法官的懸缺至今已超過八個月時間，最後一號判決（113年憲判字第11號）日期則是2024年10月28日，已有260天沒有作成任何新判決。根據憲法法庭統計月報，2025年截至五月聲請案件共有1,000件──案件終結622件包含610件裁定不受理、其他終結程序裁定、撤回或其他12件，易言之，過去八個月時間憲法法庭的案件終結沒有作出任何實體判決、也無從宣告任何法律違憲，且憲法法庭自2022年改制以來聲請案件超過98%皆為人民聲請，次之為法院就其審理之案件所為聲請，而國家最高機關與立法委員之聲請案件數則為最末，足見憲法法庭絕大多數案件仍是基本權利案件。","1.請問被提名人認為司法院正副院長以及大法官出缺，是否對我國憲政造成危機？可能對臺灣的民主憲政秩序造成何種影響？","上述情形在立法院強行通過的《憲法訴訟法》修正條文於今（2025）年1月25日生效後使情況更加嚴峻，第30條新增第二項「參與評議大法官人數不得低於10人，作成違憲宣告時，同意違憲宣告大法官人數不得低於9人」，讓目前僅八人在任的大法官依法無法實質評議。有論者進一步提出，憲法法庭應具有某種本於憲法的程序自主權，或者至少應具有不被其他憲法機關惡意癱瘓、操控的自我防衛能力，否則若因其他憲政機關消極不行使或違反其憲法忠誠義務之行為，遂使憲法法庭無法行使職權時，憲法法庭將無法承擔守護憲政民主秩序的職責。","2.請問被提名人對憲法法庭程序自主權的看法？或應如何形塑或限縮於何種特殊情況中始有程序自主權適用之餘地？","本次審查過程中，部分委員提出大法官最重要的特質為對抗當權者的勇氣，亦有認為大法官不具有民意基礎，因此憲法法庭判決內容得透過公投結果推翻。","3.請問被提名人如何理解憲法法庭的任務，是否確有對抗其他機關的意涵？","4.憲法法庭判決效力為何？立法院得否作出違反憲法法庭判決之修法，此等行為是否違背其憲法忠誠義務？","5.憲法法庭判決之內容得否為公民投票之標的，判決結果得否為公民投票結果所推翻或改變？","被提名人簡歷中社會參與部分相當豐富，包含中央與地方政府之法規研修小組、訴願委員會委員以及行政法院調解委員等，也曾多次受司法院大法官及憲法法庭指定為鑑定人、提交專家諮詢意見書。與行政權及司法權長期的對話與溝通，相信使被提名人具有豐富的實務經驗，有助於未來行使大法官職權有所助益。","6.請問被提名人的社會參與中印象最深刻的案件或經驗？無論是對您個人有重大影響，或是因見解影響法院判決或立法的具體案例，希望藉此了解您最關切或認為極具指標的憲政議題或基本人權保障議題。","近年我國中央與地方權限垂直劃分等權力分立議題經常發生爭議，如憲法法庭111年度憲判字第6號判決、中火發電廠裁罰，乃至於《財政收支劃分法》修法未依財權隨事權劃分……等，顯現我國地方自治制度落實上仍有許多亟欲檢討之處，有鑒於部分案件已向憲法法庭聲請，本席不會針對個案具體要求被提名人發表意見，避免落入因特定立場而支持／反對大法官被提名人選，以及影響大法官獨立行使職權不受干預的自主性。","7.請問被提名人，就您身為公法學者──尤其行政法與地方自治學者的專業意見，認為我國的地方自治規範及觀念，是否仍有因與制憲時相距過大而窒礙難行？應從哪些面向思考或有得重新思考制度安排之處？","從COVID-19疫情時刻的緊急危難，到近年中國灰色地帶侵擾愈發嚴重的情勢下，令論者開始思考我國的法治規範是否足夠因應特別時期的需要，尤其愈是在危難時刻更需要可資依循的規範，同時劃定出法治國原則下為達成特別重大公共利益下，可能造成的基本人權侵害樣態與邊界以及如何正當化的判准。本席發現被提名人最近期的研究計畫正是涉及此議題。","8.請問被提名人目前的研究的成果以及如何看待「緊急應變能力之法制」？","最後，本席仍要對被提名人表達敬意，在動盪且充滿不確定性的情況下勇於接受總統提名，半年前才經歷過的大法官被提名人質詢就像赤裸裸的警告與威嚇，可能會讓本席的前輩、法律人們感到憂心，但所幸仍有如被提名人這樣願意承擔重任的有志者，願意為我國的憲政體制存續而努力。","9.在朝小野大的立法權與行政權的潛在衝突中，過去在司法院大法官釋字第328、第419號解釋等所適用的政治問題理論，便是在政治僵局中試圖透過違憲審查機制處理政治部門權限爭議之例。請問被提名人是如何看待權力分立原則中司法權所擔負的角色與任務？","10.未來被提名人通過任命後，將如何行使大法官及憲法法庭職務，是否會維持被提名人的口頭報告「發揮司法積極主義下釋憲引導功能」的期許，面對未來的諸多任務與挑戰，抑或是可能受到其他因素考量而採取司法自制的立場？"],["主席：下一位請陳玉珍委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}},{"id":"163117","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163117","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b7b0eda596a562c15e71d587566aeaab60b29e8d3452976269b03abd11ba7a7725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:44:26 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我們請陳備題名人請備題名人答詢"},{"start":20.251,"end":39.285,"text":"好 我称你陈教授比较顺口一点以前的大法官是宣法的守护者事件的结果可以说是一言九鼎或是一锤定音因为目前的大法官他的角色其实引起非常多的争议我请陈老师你看一下"},{"start":40.146,"end":57.094,"text":"如果你有一天也成为他们其中的一员你认为你有什么差别是赫利基群与众不同让人民重新对司法燃起了一个希望还是你跟这群大法官一样是同声相应同气相求然后更扮演一个政权守护者的一个角色"},{"start":58.101,"end":84.914,"text":"報告委員大法官的職權 任義務是在保障多元的自由民主憲政秩序所以說每一個法官的背景都是多元的包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些而且以剛才跟前面的委員報告過的是每一個大法官基本上不是學者就是法官或檢察官"},{"start":84.994,"end":111.017,"text":"所以你们因为背景不同所以说你们会根据你们自己的背景提出对于很多条文上面的解释我今天要特别来引用这个前总统陈水扁说的他说大法官不能是万能的上帝他不要每件事情都要请大法官出来做公清很多政治的攻防朝野的攻防大法官最好不要再简入不然大法官的威信都会荡然无存也不要利用大法官献予其不义你赞同陈总统的说法吗"},{"start":111.835,"end":121.415,"text":"報告委員我可不可以稍微再說明一下可以嗎等一下我們等一下會有機會讓你說明所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你你認為司法要積極還是要消極"},{"start":123.502,"end":149.986,"text":"司法作為第三權本身就基於司法的本質是一個被動的而不是一個積極的角色積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分但是我相信你從今天早上到現在我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者說法不能夠出一十五不一樣因為你在書面回訓的時候不斷強調司法的一個消極性然後你覺得不能夠過度來積極但是大家都引用你過去的大作"},{"start":150.486,"end":173.645,"text":"你这本书从这个宪法法理的理论的司法院大法官事先的问题里面其中的一篇却表现我们的司法积极的主义的态度你甚至认为说大法官是宪法的拯救者不应该回避政治问题而且要针对基本的权争议的扮演一个救援者的角色所以难怪大家会质疑到底哪一个才是真正的你"},{"start":174.506,"end":201.803,"text":"報告委員我沒有講過拯救者救援者這是三個字沒有完全沒有我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律所以說呢從人權保障一直到權限之類的都跟政治有關只不過在這個解釋過程它不應該一開始就拒絕而是在解釋過程當中如果遇到有政治力的話政治色彩的話你的解釋就應該到這裡為止例如我已經舉過很多例子像顧友江嶼的解釋"},{"start":202.563,"end":230.113,"text":"但是对不起对不起曾被提名人你既然在你的书当中宪法解释具有政治性是必然之理所以大法官不能一开始就以政治问题而拒绝解释否则就具为限制效果所以你认为在这个政治的层面上面你还是具有很大的一个积极性我只能说如果陈前总统在的话看了你的书的话他应该不会提名你因为你的期待你的写法跟他的期待是有些的落差的然后呢"},{"start":230.453,"end":245.578,"text":"你特别我们都还是得从你过去的著作来了解你整个的脉络你的思维然后呢这里面提到了大法官是宪政体制的把关者像你书中写的宪法解释具有正经性要保持中立和客观的确你有这么提到"},{"start":246.098,"end":263.096,"text":"但是呢你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀因為我看過你的這個口頭的報告還有你學經歷還有你參與公共行政的一些的成就但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的一個貢獻我們絕對相信你因為這些付出今天你才可以站在這個地方所以呢"},{"start":263.536,"end":285.026,"text":"我不觉得这有什么好不好说的吧你看你调列出来针调会的这个里面的诉讼代表还有呢在宪政改革当中呢你是演绎小组而且你跟我们很多很有名的独派大佬要立出要这个证明制宪那这种破例其实对很多学者来说其实是非常少见的而且更提出了这个所谓的中华民国第二共和的宪法"},{"start":285.606,"end":302.511,"text":"那既然是作為這個所謂的憲法的一個守護者我們應該對憲法應該百分百的忠誠但是呢 這樣子的一個擁抱具有台獨傾向的一個制憲還有所謂第二共和憲法代表一個全新的憲政的一個秩序我覺得本質上是否定了現有的這個正當性"},{"start":303.951,"end":325.92,"text":"是不是報告委員我提倡的是憲政改革要把憲法裡面不妥當不適合經過這七次修憲以後混掉掉你還特別提到的七次修憲已經讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪已經非常的破碎這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法是不是這並不代表說我對憲政"},{"start":326.98,"end":352.995,"text":"學者的批判是絕對的因為學者當然是會有所批判既學術自由的保障但是我重點還是在憲政體制五權憲法三權憲法權力分立方面在憲政體制方面對人權的部分我也提出很多批判你特別提到因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲非常的困難所以我們最好是用只能透過事先的方法才能夠讓這個憲法更具有一個完整性而且這裡面最重要的是你還主張在中國大陸制定之憲法"},{"start":353.635,"end":376.338,"text":"当时还没有台湾人民的同意所以在90年之前台湾不具有民主正当性我觉得这个说法跟我们赖总统在第三讲的时候1946年所通过的中华民国的宪法台湾没有派原仓家这是不谋而合的我觉得你跟赖总统的讲法是惺惺相依我都不晓得赖总统是参考你的著作还是有咨询过你的意见因为你们两个想法是差不多的"},{"start":376.718,"end":404.716,"text":"報告我人我是強調在中華民國憲法到台灣以後經過動員刊亂時期臨時條款的凍結以至於不具有民主正當性所以說你現在目前你現在目前為止那我現在簡單的問一句好的你未來要扮演所謂我們憲法的一個守護者所以你認同的是1946年前1946年頒布的憲法還是和賴總統一樣只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法我們只簡單回答這個問題就可以報告我人"},{"start":406.097,"end":423.489,"text":"1990年只修改了幾個條文而已其餘都是1947年的憲法那當然我是尊重憲法既存在我只針對它修改的方式所以你就是同賴總統所說的目前的中華民國憲法應該是從2010年之後才來當作所以你不贊同他的這樣的一個說法就對了"},{"start":427.455,"end":449.245,"text":"1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法的內容我覺得這是在意旨上面當然我們遵守的是統一不法律但是在這個意旨整個的一個最高位上裡面裡面我們還是要把它澄清清楚而且最主要我們來說你特別提到我會比較贊成的就是你提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡跟所謂的責任政治"},{"start":449.605,"end":466.944,"text":"为什么我问这个问题我们现在的五权有四权是被同一个政党所掌握的所以有没有办法达到所谓的权力制衡这东西是很重要的接下来我叫就教育为什么我问这个问题因为我们从民国37年开始历任32任的行政院长当然其中有三任是代理的"},{"start":467.284,"end":492.331,"text":"他共提出了19次的一個復議但是呢卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次的一個復議而且復議被立法院否決之後呢他不僅沒有擔起這個責任政治的部分他還特別還要提出5次的這個事件你認為他有符合責任政治的這樣的一個原則嗎報告委員這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的"},{"start":493.263,"end":520.479,"text":"这就是你刚刚所提到的在这个部分来说其实你书中写的跟你现在所回应的对我来说是有一点落差所以我们必须要把它澄清清楚所以我们就用一些比较具体的范例来特别提到的目前来说的话我们就行政院目前说对于禁法补偿刚有很多人问你还有警察人员的人事条例再提视线而且上礼拜我们通过的普罚现金一万块钱也考虑要来提出视线那我想请问陈教授"},{"start":520.959,"end":547.155,"text":"立法院透過法律案來增加支出你覺得有違反憲法第70條上面的規定嗎報告委員剛才已經跟幾位委員垂詢的時候回答基本上立法院認為這是法律案行政院認為這涉及到預算的規模所以有爭議爭議的時候呢大法官在520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的"},{"start":547.695,"end":564.25,"text":"但是我还是要这个正义的部分里面我还是要把它理定清楚因为在7月9号司法院被提名人蔡秋明这个他就特别两座的表明立法院所提的包括禁法补偿包括过去的老农津贴他基本上认为是没有违宪的那你认为呢"},{"start":564.89,"end":588.166,"text":"基本上如果是法律案的話就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的是在法律案的層面上說所以這樣大家在法律案跟預算案大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中我們今天為什麼要特別提出來因為呢普發現金我們只問一個特別條例行政院好像傾向於不釋憲我想他目前為止也不敢去釋憲他這次是要比照禁法補償條例裡面直接不編列預算"},{"start":591.87,"end":596.206,"text":"請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解"},{"start":597.81,"end":619.402,"text":"520號解釋有提出依據憲法徵修條第3條第二項模式但是呢我覺得你看這就是我們引用的條文不一樣這次比禁法補償更嚴重的依照釋字第463號的一個解釋特別預算如果不合訂就要退回去因為如果政院不按照立法院通過特別條例來編列預算的話這才是一個違憲的部分"},{"start":621.983,"end":638.874,"text":"你看看463的解釋裡面他是這樣的說法的所以我們引用的條文是這一塊463的解釋是針對特別預算的部分現在的問題是立法院認為是法律案但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院的編列預算的權限"},{"start":639.874,"end":665.614,"text":"根据预算法第九十一条的规定也不是这样选法但是我要利用这个机会还是要特别提出来上周我们此次提到的特别预算的条例通过预算到底是如何来编列但还要由大院来做一个解释但我要是特别提醒了本来立法院就有这个立法主动行程权我们在制定特别条例的时候呢会另加这个条文然后呢这本就是我们所固定的条文"},{"start":665.894,"end":681.125,"text":"这固定的一个权限我要特别提醒来在过去90年的时候呢我们通过基隆河流域的特别预算那时候是由料水管委员所提出来柯建民总召当初还是联署人95年通过的石门水库的还有这个特别预算"},{"start":681.505,"end":707.843,"text":"是由林正峰委员提出来而且呢都是跟我们现在一样都要依照委员的提案通过特别条例之后再编略预算92年民进党党团那时候有我们的科技民族在这个所谓的严重这个我们的扫射时候我们防治基金500亿我们所做的99年那时候的提案人是赖清德我们要为增稳水库制造的特别条例现在所讲的跟过去所讲的都是一样"},{"start":708.283,"end":723.131,"text":"都完全是我們提出的特別條例之後委請行政院再編列預算請問這次為什麼我們所提出來你就認為是可能是有違憲之嫌過去所提出來完全過去程序都是一樣的報告委員我沒有說違憲之嫌因為"},{"start":723.991,"end":740.663,"text":"依據520號解釋基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解釋那是政治的問題大法官不處理這個政治問題那另外呢基本上所謂的行政現在我在書上也表示很清楚不管內閣制或總統制"},{"start":741.864,"end":757.519,"text":"現在已經沒有所謂行政立法的這個制衡的問題都是政黨政治所以政黨政治之下如果政黨能夠在憲政的體制之下協商完成的話那當然就不會有爭議的問題所以你認為我們所提出來目前來說"},{"start":758.48,"end":780.095,"text":"上次礼拜所提出来的这个所谓的普发现金这个部分以目前你的理解来说你认为跟过去我所调理了这么多过去的特别预算调理完之后的预算应该是符合一致的嘛如果之前可以的话这次应该也是可以嘛如果行政院再提出所谓的事件的话你应该认为这个是完全完全违反我们463号的一个解释嘛"},{"start":780.695,"end":809.896,"text":"因為這完全一樣的 時光背景不一樣但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊你必須要把這個程序把它搞清楚啊是 報告委員 基本上如果我剛才已經提到現在是一個政黨政治各個政黨如果同意的情形之下就不會有520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了那現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的因為我沒有去細讀之前的那些預算案的部分一樣的"},{"start":810.276,"end":827.763,"text":"完全是一样的你应该去细读因为我们今天其实最需要的就是根据几个案例来提出你对于这个很多部分的解释而且最重要是我们现在的卓院长好像是事件已经上了瘾一样只要他提出他不喜欢的他就提事件目前像我们总预算案我们的才华法等等"},{"start":828.463,"end":844.222,"text":"而且呢他认为中国查特别问你而且你特别提到的你以前提过了行政机关如果提出提出自己的版本这是宪政惯例那以才化法来说的话行政院并没有提出自己的版本啊你认为他是不是违反了我们的这个宪政惯例"},{"start":845.94,"end":867.268,"text":"原則上憲政慣例都行政院會提但是行政院不提立法院當然有權去提出法律案那至於怎麼樣去議決就是基於政黨我現在只是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本這本就是憲政慣例而行政院這次沒有我只問你是不是違反我們過去的行政慣例"},{"start":868.072,"end":874.462,"text":"有可能這個憲政慣例憲政慣例基本上是如果有中斷的話那當然就有可能"},{"start":876.718,"end":901.406,"text":"這個憲政慣例可能沒有 憲政慣例的沒有拘束力這跟你過去的說法是不一樣嘛 本來就要是提出來 然後沒但這次就是沒提 你就大膽的講 我覺得陳昭吉人 你看陳被提名人 你是教授雖然你過去是學者的身份 學者是言論自由但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的一個風火 站在這個地方要當成一個大法官 就要跟自己的過去都是有所一致性的報告委員 因為法律學者是很嚴謹的"},{"start":902.446,"end":925.55,"text":"因為單純幾個舉句話我們要去做非常嚴謹的回答恐怕會有遲疑並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等那我就再跟你講一下你過去的一個前輩我們在大法官釋字第391號當中那時候大法官蘇俊雄跟劉鐵正他在不同一書裡面就提到"},{"start":925.97,"end":948.346,"text":"目前多事的解釋文并没有判断所谓违反责任政治跟权力分裂的一个标准所以说呢你如果单纯只用权限那个分离来切割提案权跟所谓议决权的话这完全会限锁我们立法院调整预算那个内容所以今天为什么有这么多预算出来为什么今天大家对于所提出的这个大法官的人选我们要非常的严格"},{"start":948.766,"end":975.794,"text":"因为当我们这么喜欢事件的院长把什么都放到你那边去之后你如果完全是根据执政党的意志然后来做出你这样一个诠释的话对我们所出来特别是目前这一党说是非常不公平的说我们为什么举出这么多的条例包括我刚刚所提出这么多在特别条例里面的这些过去的历史还包括现在我所告诉你的过去的大法官里面在第391号当中他就有做错的这样的一个诠释"},{"start":976.434,"end":1001.823,"text":"你認為你過去的前輩這樣的說法你在同嗎報告委員我尊重剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹的回答但是有一個問題我可以很直率的跟委員報告我絕對會以超人的地位以我之前一直在貴黨團裡面所提到的很多的問題我都一直認為這是我學者的見解都提供給貴黨團的書面"},{"start":1003.764,"end":1023.77,"text":"但是陈教授学者的一个见解大家说是透过你过去的著作来了解你所以学者的见解跟你今天站在那边当做是一个被提名人我觉得某种程度的脉络是要一致的就诚如你过去一直不断强调你在当考试委员的时候你是超然立场我还是再次的强调考试委员所处理的性质跟我们大法官是不一样"},{"start":1024.15,"end":1051.148,"text":"特别是像此时此刻我们在目前来说没有一次有那么多的院长提出这么多政治性的所谓的视线这就是我们为什么对你过去的背景跟你现在的回答我们要严格的来做一个厘清这才是个最主要的一个目的我最后一个问题时间的关系你特别要要特别提到了啊所以当你引用了不同的一个法条的时候不断的当民进党的委员不断的在这个所谓的特别预算里面不断的提出宪法第70条的时候"},{"start":1051.488,"end":1070.862,"text":"我們就不斷的提出了憲法第63條還有包括等等這些都要透過大法官來幫我們做不同的一個釐清你之前也特別提到了美國總統叫國會議長下台就是一個憲政災難這是您過去所提到的在我們憲法的運作上面也是具有總統議會的特徵賴總統宣講的時候表示他要透過"},{"start":1076.946,"end":1098.775,"text":"選舉打掉的雜質然後在民進黨的代表大會當中他主張就是要公民一起來發動大罷免意義上好像就是你要透過主張改變立法院席次的一個結構來罷免我們的立法院院長那你認為這跟你過去所說的美國總統叫國會長下台是憲政災難這不覺得也是整個脈絡上也完全是不斷的一個相近的嗎"},{"start":1099.824,"end":1129.304,"text":"如果以總統身份的確是不適宜的但是如果個人的話他有言人自由他今天就是總統啊他今天賴清德就是個總統他怎麼會是個人呢他今天所講的每一句話就代表總統的角度來做一個發言我覺得透過這樣一個宣講然後呢藉由這樣的部分來改變國會的結構然後來換掉我們的立法院長我個人認為這個就是憲政災難這就是您過去所主張的是一樣但是你沒有覺得我們現在整個的台灣社會慢慢往這個方面來做一個趨近這是我們比較擔心的"},{"start":1131.825,"end":1147.336,"text":"我還是維持我與一貫的學者之前所說的立場你現在又變成學者了哇塞我真的常常在你的學者跟這個被提名之間的一個角色我常常會覺得有點confused當你提到這個言論自由當你提到人權的時候你認為這是當你提到你過去的時候是一個比較積極"},{"start":1148.417,"end":1165.425,"text":"對於這個所謂的憲法應該要站在一個第一線上對於政治問題裡面你不能夠迴避可是當現在你所寫的這些所謂的書面跟你回應我的問題的時候你又變成是比較認為應該是退居不要變成一個公親是一個比較消極的角色所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的這個陳昭平"},{"start":1166.745,"end":1169.107,"text":"你用辦法做到嗎?我覺得這就是我們最"},{"start":1183.215,"end":1203.665,"text":"非常非常质疑的一个跟过去的一个背景虽然你不断的提出来你这是考试委员我还是强调考试委员跟大法官所强调的所面对的事务是完完全全不一样大法官不起为神他应该是很超然的过去我们也从来没有跟大法官有这么多的这样子的一个面对面的这样一个一个接触或者是透过宪法法庭里面来做出很多的政治攻防"},{"start":1204.005,"end":1220.392,"text":"可是現在到底是誰讓他變成把你們每一個人都要被問到都要被質疑到底你的政治立場上面有沒有這樣的不斷的一個偏頗這個就是一個我們目前正在這個地方大家對於您過去跟現在一定要搞清楚到底哪一個才是代表你的這樣的一個部分"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時44分）謝謝主席。我們請陳被提名人。"],["主席：請被提名人答詢。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我稱你陳教授比較順口一點。","以前的大法官是憲法的守護者，釋憲的結果可以說是一言九鼎或是一錘定音，但是目前大法官的角色其實引起非常多的爭議，我請陳老師你看一下，如果你有一天也成為他們其中的一員，你認為你有什麼差別？是鶴立雞群與眾不同，讓人民重新對司法燃起希望，還是你跟這一群大法官一樣是同聲相應，同氣相求，更扮演一個政權守護者的角色？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，大法官的職權、義務是在保障多元的自由、民主、憲政秩序，所以每一個法官的背景都是多元的，包括專長、政治理念、價值理念等等這些，而且剛才跟前面的委員報告過，每一個大法官基本上不是學者，就是法官或檢察官……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你們因為背景不同，你們會根據你們自己的背景提出對於很多條文上面的解釋。好，我今天要特別來引用前總統陳水扁說的，他說：大法官不是萬能的上帝，不要每件事情都要請大法官出來做公親，很多政治的攻防、朝野的攻防，大法官最好不要再捲入，不然大法官的威信都會蕩然無存，也不要利用大法官，陷其於不義。你贊同陳總統的說法嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我可不可以稍微再說明一下，可以嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：等一下，我們等一下會有機會讓你說明。所以我其實引用陳水扁的說法是要問你，你認為司法要積極還是要消極？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：司法作為第三權，本身基於司法的本質是一個被動的，而不是一個積極的角色，積極的角色是在行政跟立法的這個部分。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我相信從今天早上到現在，我們都會認為你是一個憲法的學者，說法不能夠初一、十五不一樣，因為你在書面回復的時候，不斷強調司法的消極性，你覺得不能夠過度積極。但是大家都會引用你過去的大作，你這本書，從憲法法理論司法院大法官釋憲問題裡面，其中的一篇卻表現我們的司法積極主義的態度，你甚至認為說，大法官是憲法的拯救者，不應該迴避政治問題，而且要針對基本權的爭議扮演一個救援者的角色，所以難怪大家會質疑到底哪一個才是真正的你。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我沒有講過「拯救者」、「救援者」這三個字，沒有，完全沒有。我是認為憲法是一部政治性的法律，所以從人權保障一直到權限爭議都跟政治有關，只不過在這個解釋過程，他不應該一開始就拒絕，而是在解釋過程當中，如果遇到有政治力的話、政治色彩的話，他的解釋就應該到這裡為止，例如我已經舉過很多例子，像固有疆域的解釋……"],["柯委員志恩：但是對不起，對不起！陳被提名人，你竟然在你的書當中說，憲法解釋具有政治性是必然之理，所以大法官不能一開始就以政治問題而拒絕解釋，否則就具違憲之效果，所以你認為在政治的層面上面，大法官還是具有很大的積極性。我只能說如果陳前總統在任的話，看了你的書的話，他應該不會提名你，因為你的期待、你的寫法，跟他的期待是有些落差的。","我們都還是得從你過去的著作來了解你整個的脈絡、你的思維，這裡面提到了大法官是憲政體制的把關者，像你書中寫的，憲法解釋具有政治性，要保持中立跟客觀，的確你有這麼提到，但是你到底要如何來做這個所謂的中立跟客觀，因為我看過你的口頭報告，還有你的學經歷，還有你參與公共行政的一些成就，但是你完全迴避你對民進黨的貢獻，我們絕對相信你因為這些付出，今天你才可以站在這個地方，所以我不覺得這有什麼不好說的嘛！","你看條列出來的，真調會條例釋憲裡面的訴訟代表，還有在憲政改革當中，你是研議小組，而且你跟我們很多很有名的獨派大老力促要正名制憲，這種魄力其實對很多學者來說，其實是非常少見的，而且更提出了所謂的「中華民國第二共和憲法」。既然是作為所謂的憲法守護者，我們應該對憲法百分之百的忠誠，但是這樣子的擁抱具有臺獨傾向的制憲，還有所謂第二共和憲法，代表一個全新的憲政秩序，我覺得本質上是否定了現有的正當性耶！是不是？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我提倡的是憲政改革，要把憲法裡面不妥當、不適合，經過這7次修憲以後……"],["柯委員志恩：你還特別提到7次修憲讓我們的憲法已經是殘破不堪，已經非常的破碎，這應該也是你在當學者時候的一個說法，是不是？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：學者的批判是絕對的，因為學者當然是會有所批判，基於學術自由的保障，但是我的重點還是在憲政體制、五權憲法、三權憲法、權力分立方面、在憲政體制方面，對人權的部分，我也提出很多批判。"],["柯委員志恩：你特別提到，因為我們現在不管是修憲或制憲都非常困難，所以我們只能透過釋憲的方法，才能夠讓這個憲法更具有完整性。而且這裡面最重要的是，你還主張，在中國大陸制定之憲法，當時還沒有臺灣人民的同意，所以在90年之前，於臺灣不具有民主正當性。我覺得這個說法跟我們賴總統在第三講時所說，1946年所通過的中華民國憲法，臺灣沒有派員參加，這是不謀而合的，我覺得你跟賴總統的講法是心心相印，我就不曉得賴總統是參考你的著作，還是有諮詢過你的意見，因為你們兩個想法是差不多的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我是強調在中華民國憲法到臺灣以後，經過動員戡亂時期臨時條款的凍結，以致於不具有民主正當性……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在簡單的問一句就好，你未來要扮演一個所謂憲法的守護者，所以你認同的是1946年頒布的憲法，還是和賴總統一樣，只承認90年後總統直選之後的憲法？你只簡單回答這個問題就可以。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，1990年只修改了十幾個條文而已，其餘都是1947年的憲法，當然我是尊重憲法既已存在，我只針對它修改的方式……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你認同賴總統所說的，目前的中華民國憲法應該是從90年之後才來當作……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：沒有、沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你不贊同他的這樣一個說法就對了？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：不是、不是，因為1990年修憲也只不過十幾個條文，其他還是依據1947年中華民國憲法。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這是在意旨上面，當然，我們遵守的是同一部法律，但是在整個意旨的最高上位裡面，我們還是要把它澄清清楚，而且對我們來說，我會比較贊成的是，你特別提到憲政體制的設計必須符合權力制衡和所謂的責任政治。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：對。"],["柯委員志恩：為什麼我要問這個？問題是我們現在的五權有四權是被同一個政黨所掌握的，所以有沒有辦法達到所謂的權力制衡，這個東西是很重要的。","接下來我就教於你，為什麼我要問這個問題？因為我們從民國37年開始，歷任32任的行政院長，當然其中有3任是代理的，共提出了19次覆議，但是卓榮泰院長本身就提出了6次覆議，而且覆議被立法院否決之後，他不僅沒有擔起責任政治的部分，他還特別提出5次的釋憲，你認為他有符合責任政治這樣一個原則嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，這是行政跟立法之間的政治行為，這個政治行為大法官不應該去介入或者去關心的。"],["柯委員志恩：這就是你剛剛所提到的，就這個部分來說，其實你書中寫的，跟你現在所回應的，對我來說是有一點落差，所以我們必須要把它澄清清楚，我們就用一些比較具體的範例來特別提到，就行政院目前來說，對於禁伐補償，剛剛有很多人問你，還有警察人員人事條例，再提釋憲，而且對於上禮拜我們通過的普發現金一萬塊錢，也考慮要來提出釋憲，我想請問陳教授，立法院透過法律案來增加支出，你覺得有違反憲法第七十條上面的規定嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，剛才幾位委員垂詢的時候我已經回答，基本上，立法院認為這是法律案，行政院認為這涉及到預算的編列……"],["柯委員志恩：預算案。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：所以有爭議，有爭議的時候，大法官在第520號解釋裡面就提供了所謂依據憲法增修條文第三條相關的第二項去處理……"],["柯委員志恩：但是我還是要強調這個爭議的部分要把它釐清清楚，因為在7月9號司法院被提名人蔡秋明有特別兩度表明，立法院所提的包括禁伐補償、包括過去的老農津貼，他基本上認為是沒有違憲的，那你認為呢？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：基本上如果是法律案的話，就立法院的立場是沒有違憲的。"],["柯委員志恩：是，在法律案的層面上來說，就法律案跟預算案，大家都完全不是活在同一個時空當中，我們今天為什麼要特別提出來？因為普發現金特別條例，我們只問一個，行政院好像傾向於不釋憲，我想它目前為止也不敢去釋憲，這次它是要比照禁伐補償條例，直接不編列預算，請問政院不依法編列特別預算的話，過去大法官有沒有這樣的見解？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第520號解釋有提出依據憲法增修條文第三條第二項模式，兩院去互動。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你看，這就是我們引用的條文不一樣，這次比禁伐補償更嚴重，依照釋字第463號的解釋，特別預算如果不核定就要退回去，因為如果行政院不按照立法院通過的特別條例編列預算的話，這才是一個違憲的部分，你看第463號的解釋裡面是這樣說的，所以我們引用的條文是這一塊。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：第463號的解釋是針對特別預算的部分，現在的問題在於立法院認為是法律案，但是行政院認為這涉及到行政院編列預算的權限……"],["柯委員志恩：根據預算法第九十一條的規定也不是這樣的說法，但我還是要利用這個機會特別提出來，上週只是特別預算的條例通過，預算到底要如何編列，那還要由大院來做一個解釋，在此我要特別提醒，本來立法院就有立法主動形成權，我們在制定特別條例的時候會另加條文，這本來就是我們固定的權限，我要特別提醒在過去90年的時候我們通過基隆河流域的特別預算，那時候是由廖學廣委員所提出來，柯建銘總召當初還是連署人；95年通過的石門水庫特別預算是由林正峰委員提出來，而且都跟我們現在一樣，都要依照委員的提案，通過特別條例之後再編列預算。92年民進黨黨團那時候由柯建銘主導，在SARS疫情嚴重的時候，我們編列防治基金500億；99年那時候的提案人是賴清德，為了曾文水庫制定特別條例。現在所講的跟過去所講的都一樣，都是我們提出特別條例之後，委請行政院再編列預算。請問為什麼這次我們所提出來的，你就認為可能有違憲之嫌？它和過去的程序完全都一樣啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我沒有說有違憲之嫌，因為依據第520號解釋，基本上是兩院應該要依憲法的程序去解決……"],["柯委員志恩：有嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：那是政治的問題，大法官不處理政治問題。另外，其實我在書上也表示得很清楚，不管內閣制或總統制，現在已經沒有所謂行政、立法制衡的問題，都是政黨政治，在政黨政治之下，如果政黨能夠在憲政體制之下協商完成的話，那當然就不會有爭議的問題，如果有爭議……"],["柯委員志恩：所以針對我們上個禮拜所提出來普發現金這個部分，以你目前的理解來說，你認為跟我所條列過去這麼多的特別預算，通過特別條例之後要編列預算應該是符合一致的，如果之前可以的話，這次應該也是可以嘛！如果行政院再提出所謂的釋憲的話，你應該認為這是完全違反第463號的解釋，因為這是完全一樣的，雖然時空背景不一樣，但是我們的程序是完全一樣的啊！你必須要把這個程序搞清楚啊！"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我剛才已經提到，現在是政黨政治，如果在各個政黨同意的情形之下，就不會有第520號解釋裡面所謂要透過第三條第二項的部分去解決了。現在的問題跟以前可能是一樣的，因為我沒有細讀之前那些預算案……"],["柯委員志恩：一樣的，完全是一樣的！你應該去細讀，因為我們今天最需要的其實就是根據幾個案例來提出你對於很多部分的解釋，而且最重要的是，現在卓院長好像是提釋憲已經上了癮一樣，只要他不喜歡的他就提釋憲，像總預算案、財劃法等等，而且你以前也特別提到，行政機關如果提出自己的版本，這是憲政慣例，那以財劃法來說的話，行政院並沒有提出自己的版本，你認為它是不是違反了我們的憲政慣例？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：原則上，依照憲政慣例都是行政院會提，如果行政院不提，立法院當然有權提出法律案。至於怎麼樣去議決，就是基於政黨政治……"],["柯委員志恩：我現在是強調你過去有特別提到行政機關提出自己的版本，這本來就是憲政慣例，而行政院這次沒有，所以我只問你這是不是違反我們過去的憲政慣例？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：有可能，這個憲政慣例如果有中斷的話，那當然就有可能憲政慣例沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：你就大膽的說嘛！這跟你過去的說法不一樣……"],["陳慈陽被提名人：但憲政慣例沒有拘束力……"],["柯委員志恩：本來就要提出來，但這次就是沒有提，你就大膽的講嘛！陳被提名人你是教授，雖然你過去是學者的身分，學者是言論自由，但是我覺得應該帶著這樣的風骨站在這個地方，要當成一個大法官，就要跟自己的過去都是有一致性的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，因為法律學者是很嚴謹的，如果只用單純幾句話就要去做非常嚴謹的回答，恐怕會有遲疑，並不是我基於我自己本身立場去做任何回答，因為剛才所提的這些問題還有很多配套等等……"],["柯委員志恩：那我就再跟你講一下你過去的前輩，在大法官釋字第391號當中，那時候大法官蘇俊雄和劉鐵錚在不同意見書裡面就提到，目前多數解釋文並沒有判斷所謂違反責任政治及權力分立的標準，如果單純只用權限的分立來切割提案權及議決權的話，完全會限縮我們立法院調整預算的內容。所以今天為什麼有這麼多預算出來？為什麼今天大家對於所提出的大法官人選要非常地嚴格？因為當這麼喜歡釋憲的院長把什麼都放到你們那邊之後，你們如果完全根據執政黨的意旨作出詮釋的話，對我們提出來、特別是目前在野黨提出來的是非常不公平的！所以我們為什麼舉出這麼多條例，包括我剛剛所提出這麼多特別條例過去的歷史，還包括現在我告訴你的，過去大法官在第391號解釋當中就已經作出這樣的詮釋，對於過去的前輩這樣的說法，你贊同嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我尊重。剛才已經講到法律人對很多問題都要很嚴謹地回答，但是有一個問題我可以很直率地跟委員報告，我絕對會以超然的地位，我之前在貴黨團裡面提到很多問題，我一直都認為這是我作為學者的見解，都提供在貴黨團的書面資料裡面給大家看。"],["柯委員志恩：但是陳教授，以學者的見解來講，大家都是透過你過去的著作來瞭解你，所以學者的見解跟你今天站在這邊當作一個被提名人，我覺得某種程度的脈絡是要一致的。就誠如你過去一直不斷強調，你在當考試委員的時候是持超然立場，我還是再一次地強調，考試委員所處理的性質跟大法官不一樣，特別是此時此刻，沒有一位院長提出這麼多政治性的釋憲，這是我們為什麼對你過去的背景跟你現在的回答要嚴格地釐清，這才是最主要的目的。","因為時間的關係，我提出最後一個問題。你特別提到，當你引用不同法條的時候……當民進黨的委員在特別預算裡面不斷地提出憲法第七十條的時候，我們就不斷地提出憲法第六十三條等等，這些都要透過大法官幫我們做不同的釐清。你之前也特別提到美國總統叫國會議長下臺就是一個憲政災難，這是您過去所提到的。在我們憲法的運作上面，也是具有總統、議會的特徵。賴總統宣講的時候表示，他要透過選舉打掉雜質；又在民進黨代表大會當中，主張公民要一起發動大罷免，意思好像就是要透過主張改變立法院席次的結構來罷免立法院院長，你認為這跟你過去所說的「美國總統叫國會議長下臺是憲政災難」，在脈絡上不也是相近的嗎？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：如果以總統身分，的確是不適宜的；但是如果是個人的話，他有言論自由，當然……"],["柯委員志恩：他今天就是總統，今天賴清德就是總統，他怎麼是個人呢？他今天所講的每一句話就是代表總統的角度來發言。對於透過這樣的宣講，藉此改變國會的結構，進而換掉立法院院長，我個人認為這個就是憲政災難，跟您過去所主張的是一樣的，但是你不覺得現在整個臺灣社會慢慢往這個方向趨近？這是我們比較擔心的。"],["陳慈陽被提名人：我還是維持我一貫的學者之前所說的……"],["柯委員志恩：你現在又變成學者了！哇賽，我真的常常在你學者跟被提名人之間的角色會覺得有點confused。當你提到言論自由、提到人權的時候，你認為這是……你提到你過去是比較積極的，對於憲法應該站在第一線上，對於政治問題不能夠迴避；可是從現在你所寫這些書面跟你對我的問題的回應看來，你又變成比較認為應該退居，不要變成公親，是一個消極的角色。所以到底哪一個才是我們現在所認知的陳慈陽？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我認為釋憲、憲法就是有政治的素材，不能迴避，否則就不需要釋憲，但是在釋憲過程當中遇到政治力的時候，就應該要指出這個界線所在，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：你有辦法做到嗎？我覺得這就是我們非常非常質疑的，因為以你過去的背景，雖然你不斷地提出來你當時是考試委員，但我還是強調，考試委員跟大法官所強調的、所面對的事務是完完全全不一樣的，大法官應該是很超然的，過去我們也從來沒有跟大法官有這麼多面對面的接觸，或者透過憲法法庭作出很多政治攻防，可是現在到底是誰讓他變成……讓你們每一個人都要被問到、都要被質疑到底你們的政治立場上面有沒有偏頗？這個就是我們目前站在這個地方，大家對於您的過去跟現在一定要搞清楚，到底哪一個才是代表你？"],["陳慈陽被提名人：報告委員，我一定做到在解釋過程當中如果遇到政治力的介入，就是一個界線存在。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯委員，謝謝被提名人。","下一位請陳培瑜委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-3-4","speakers":["江啟臣","陳玉珍","林國成","劉建國","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","柯志恩","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","蘇巧慧","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","盧縣一"],"page_start":467,"meetingDate":["2025-07-14"],"gazette_id":"1146501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146501_00009","1146501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規\n定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並\n以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案（後接第二冊）","agenda_id":"1146501_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}