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遠高於15%再加上如果把匯率漲了13%加進來那個中小企業會倒一片第一個 可能談得不好第二個"},{"start":1877.031,"end":1901.663,"text":"就是大家很關心的國內的產業你們是不是面臨到美國的壓力要我們零關稅我講清楚喔你們如果同意美國零關稅要海關進口稅者條例還是要經過立法院我相信我們立委會很多意見比如說農產品"},{"start":1903.942,"end":1905.624,"text":"雞腿磅17.5%吧對不對 你猜一下雞腿磅 農民啊17.5%我們是要怎麼花啦"},{"start":1915.74,"end":1934.01,"text":"農民是要如何?汽車工業你說保護太絕了要減但你不是這種計劃你逐年降低大家可以接受你148歸0那跟汽車產業它的衛星工廠加起來超過100萬人的就業怎麼辦?"},{"start":1935.27,"end":1953.285,"text":"不能說是為了要討好美國把台灣的整個經濟都勾垮把台灣的就業人口就業情況都勾垮這是外界所慣性的兩大問題也就是說我們的談判怎麼會變政治化的這麼的嚴重這個越南從原來46變28但是他付出代價零關稅"},{"start":1962.13,"end":1983.327,"text":"零關稅還有加很多其他的可是我們旁邊的我們加我們就加了我們這個也開始台積電區了而且還蓋了這個從北極圈到阿拉斯加的這個油管我們要花140億美金左右"},{"start":1984.465,"end":1990.608,"text":"也簽了我們經濟部長說未來十年增加兩千億美金從美國進口這個天然氣平均一年兩百億美金這個條件都比川普現在跟其他國家談得更好怎麼還沒有答案所以今天藉這個機會希望聽聽專家學者的意見我們未來再折起來審查"},{"start":2011.516,"end":2016.559,"text":"好 我先介紹到場的立委我們的黃國昌委員也是民眾黨的主席第二位 我們按照先後到的順序我們來介紹丹江大學經濟學系的蔡明峰教授第二位是桃園市總統會的劉富理事長"},{"start":2046.209,"end":2072.997,"text":"中華民國全國總工會的秘書長 溫副秘書長溫秘書長 對不起台灣汽車輛工業統一工會的副秘書長 吳志奎副秘書長以及國立中正大學勞工關係學系的王教授好中華經濟研究院的劉所長"},{"start":2078.223,"end":2085.025,"text":"好 那政府的機關代表介紹一下行政院的秘書長 副秘書長李國新 李副秘書長國會秘書處的陳副處長行政院經貿談判董事的副總代表這個議員副總代表以及國會的高先貴副主委"},{"start":2107.719,"end":2131.766,"text":"經濟發展處的陳美菊處長以及經濟部的江次長 江文若 江次長以及國貿署的劉署長產發署的周副署長中小企業署的李祖密農業部我們的胡宗一周次長"},{"start":2134.079,"end":2161.726,"text":"以及國際事務司的文副司長中文規劃司的韓副司長訓務司的李司長漁業署的林副署長農經署的李祖密農糧署的蘇祖長以及動植物防疫建議署的陳祖密衛福部食藥署的林副署長"},{"start":2163.191,"end":2191.523,"text":"健保署的庞副署长机关署的陈副署长社会及家庭事的魏科长长期照顾事的徐科长财政部的钟部长以及公务署的彭署长国务署的陈署长辉瑞署的宋署长中国输出流民囊的戴理事主席劳动部的黄社长"},{"start":2196.078,"end":2218.67,"text":"好 我們現在就開始今天的公聽會啊原則上就是讓專家學者先講我們的立委隨時要發言來登記我們基本上就會中間串查那每位專家學者八分鐘結束前一分鐘會按理提醒"},{"start":2220.327,"end":2242.69,"text":"原則上依專家學者的簽到順序發言委員若需要發言到主席才登記每位五分鐘這都是我們的慣例全部發言完畢以後再請行政機關就全者的月管全者整體的回應現在請第一位學職專家蔡明峰的補師意見請"},{"start":2253.178,"end":2253.579,"text":"都可以"},{"start":2261.828,"end":2281.901,"text":"主席還有各位與會的先進大家好今天非常榮幸可以來參加台美政府對於對等關稅跟我國因應做法的一個公聽會我想我們這一次在因應對等關稅的時候這個談判其實跟過去的貿易談判完全不一樣"},{"start":2282.942,"end":2300.593,"text":"因為無論是高關稅或是低關稅,一定都會有產業受到影響所以在這個情況之下,面對的情況變成是兩害相權取其輕一定都會有衝擊,那這個衝擊看哪一個是政府可以做的比較可以吸收的,那當然你可能會選擇那個衝擊相對比較小的"},{"start":2302.854,"end":2316.864,"text":"我們可以來看一下就是說其實我想在今天的提綱裡面有提到如果當面對關稅的時候我國政府可以有哪些談判的這些做法第一個我想大家都會提到的就是所謂分散出口市場"},{"start":2317.685,"end":2334.054,"text":"但是我也覺得就是在分散出口市場的時候大家要特別小心這個分散市場已經跟過去的你隨便賣到一個市場不一樣今天賣到的市場是一個高所得的市場所以你可以分散的市場大概就是日本歐盟這些的市場日本歐盟也都還是需要美國的市場"},{"start":2334.674,"end":2357.308,"text":"所以在這一次的對等關稅裡面這也是為什麼會讓大家非常傷腦筋的原因但是其實如果是就低所得的國家來講我想大家就不用花太大力氣去協助廠商分散市場因為對廠商來講他為什麼會賣到高所得市場他不是沒有能力賣到低所得是因為他要賺取一個比較高比較合理的利潤所以呢"},{"start":2357.788,"end":2374.59,"text":"在這樣一個情況之下其實如果真的在協助業者轉到低所得國家市場其實坦白講就是一個二次傷害所以在這個case之下我們可以來看另外一個就除了這個市場面以外我們要注意另外一個就是供應鏈的互補性"},{"start":2376.414,"end":2402.682,"text":"我想提高供應鏈的這個互補性是非常重要的事情提高供應鏈的互補性其實也是在提高你不可取代性所以你在提高這個不可取代性的時候你這個時候就可以對於有一些有競爭力的廠商呢讓他更有這個出口競爭力讓他在面對外國如果要加徵關稅的時候外國政府也會擔心所以在研發面的話我想就這個部分應該要"},{"start":2403.682,"end":2417.78,"text":"來好好的來這個進行第三個部分就是國內市場的開放程度我想這個是大家最關心的那國內市場開放程度其實剛剛主席有特別點到了這個不同的開放程度到底要怎麼開放"},{"start":2418.661,"end":2432.438,"text":"那其實比如說如果今天在國內已經有非常多外國品牌的這個市場如果政府還給予比較高的保護那這個時候如果一旦開放外國廠商進來他不見得是對於本國市場的廠商"},{"start":2433.76,"end":2463.21,"text":"是有直接的競爭反而是對外國品牌的競爭會比較激烈所以就這個部分來講我想當然這個需要更進一步的評估但是我們不應該就是說只有一時去保護某一個特定的產業或某一些產業那這些產業他明明就有一些風險承擔能力結果你還繼續保護他如果這個有一些產業他是本身沒有風險承擔能力的當然你去保護他這是理所當然可是有一些產業如果你保護他很久"},{"start":2463.55,"end":2479.641,"text":"在國內也有很多外國品牌廠商進來了繼續的保護是不是幫助他其實大家好好思考當然大家也會關心到就是說那這些受害的勞工怎麼辦其實如果你讓這個勞工他一直留在一個沒有競爭力的產業久而久之他也會變成一個沒有競爭力的勞工"},{"start":2481.241,"end":2508.542,"text":"這個其實害了勞工不是在保護勞工所以我覺得當我們面對這個衝擊的時候除了勞動部都已經有提出來的一些直接的補貼或協助以外我覺得在面對台灣普遍產業界認為有缺工的情況之下盡量去協助這些員工從業人員去轉業我想應該是讓我們的勞工提高整個勞動市場韌性比較好的這個方式所以"},{"start":2509.503,"end":2533.236,"text":"在因應這個對等關稅生效之前如果就在談判上面我想如果在談判上面對方也開出他的一個需求那第一個我想買了很多我們的東西那如果我們也有需要買的國內也沒有生產的其實我們也可以擴大採購所以第一個我想對美採購這個部分在雙方互有需求"},{"start":2534.517,"end":2549.083,"text":"在基於安全原則的情況之下我想這個是有必要去進行的那第二個就是海外的投資你有這個能力的廠商台灣在資源有限的情況之下如果這個廠商他也沒有辦法再繼續待在台灣"},{"start":2550.384,"end":2576.495,"text":"如果是他在台灣的資源就真的有限了那其實他出去的話對於整個台灣的經濟安全他不是傷害他應該是幫助第三個就經濟安全的問題而言我想這個部分其實也是在這一次關稅談判裡面世界各國都會面臨到比較重要的地方就是比如說在洗產地違規轉運這些問題或投資審查機制出口管制的做法這些都是"},{"start":2577.535,"end":2606.656,"text":"美國他在意的那美國在意的坦白講他也是如果對台灣有利的那台灣也應該好好去做那這樣子你才可以維持一個廠商可以永續經營的一個環境所以最後我們的中長期的這個調整策略應該要怎麼樣去進行我想就這個部分來講就如同我剛剛舉出來的幾個第一個就是要拓展出口市場這是很重要那因為假設歐盟的市場"},{"start":2607.396,"end":2635.622,"text":"獲利沒那麼高美國市場獲利比較高但是你面對高的關稅廠商自然就必須要往歐盟往日本去做但是歐盟跟日本有沒有這樣的產品可以來讓我們的廠商轉過去這是另外一個問題因為你的產品很不錯但是如果這個國家的廠商沒有需求那也沒有用所以這其實是一個蠻高難度的挑戰因為他是一個高所得市場來對大家課關稅那第二個就是供應鏈的互補性就是有一些具有這個"},{"start":2637.162,"end":2652.276,"text":"比如說AI產業大家都覺得說它是具有比較長的這個願景那許多台灣的廠商美國的廠商歐盟的廠商也都一直在合作那如何再去提高這個供應鏈互補性我覺得這個是政府可以盡量去協助的那"},{"start":2652.876,"end":2681.337,"text":"降低這個對沒有競爭力廠商的保護讓這些勞工可以到有競爭力的廠商去我們都知道人力資本非常重要如果你可以到有競爭力的廠商去你的人力資本的累積應該是會更有競爭力這對台灣來講才是一個讓產業可以永續經營之道所以第三個當然就是協助這些勞工盡量可以轉業而不再只是一般的補貼而已第四個就是維持供應鏈的完整性因為你可以從這一次在整個"},{"start":2683.039,"end":2709.961,"text":"我們在面對這種產業的壓力跟關稅的壓力之下如果你可以去維持我們國內供應業的自主性這個其實就是台灣的籌碼那盡量再去凸顯我們跟低生產成本國家的差異我想這個是讓台灣可以維持比較高競爭力的一個做法最後一個就是大家都很喜歡出口去玩那這個議題大家也講很久了那為我們的國人有這樣的需求"},{"start":2710.581,"end":2737.021,"text":"如何扶植一些盡量去避免面對關稅的這些產業我想也是非常重要那我想服務業比較高品質的服務業絕對是過去幾年政府也投很多那政府也應該好好去思考看看如何讓國人留在國內旅遊我想這個部分其實也是讓我們的國家經濟可以永續成長很重要的一個方式以上 謝謝好 謝謝蔡民芳蔡教授"},{"start":2743.425,"end":2756.59,"text":"補充介紹我們現場張祺凱張委員好謝謝接著歡迎的是請賴世保賴昭偉"},{"start":2767.129,"end":2783.341,"text":"謝謝主席 以及各位先進我補充一下 剛才我在起頭的時候啊舒适來講 講偏了我說那個雞腿棒啊關稅17.5啊我講少了 真的關稅是20%啊20%啊 各位如果雞腿棒變零關稅各位你可以想像農民的傷害有多大嗎第二個"},{"start":2795.632,"end":2800.734,"text":"我們整體美國進來台灣的關稅172億66億貨物稅 貨物稅就是所謂的這個非關稅的障礙 非貿易障礙營業稅我們收到的是391億"},{"start":2817.505,"end":2839.886,"text":"這裡面我很關心的我相信很多立委都很關心的就是台灣是不是已經被要求了領婚稅等一下我們請副總代表一定要告訴我們雖然說你們不揭露答案但是今天公聽會你可以讓大家知道是不是被要求領婚稅我認為"},{"start":2842.248,"end":2853.559,"text":"我們極可能被要求零關稅當然其他專制學者有講說更在意其他的產品不是這個可是現在零關稅面臨到最大的兩個產業一個就是農業一個就是汽車產業"},{"start":2857.543,"end":2873.137,"text":"汽車產業當然有委員提出已經保護這麼久了應該降為零關稅可是能夠一下子馬上降嗎等一下經濟部的長官又否釋意見了一下子降為零台灣的汽車業還有汽車能夠活那就關門算了幾個關門了而且第三大題我要強調的我們是民主國家"},{"start":2884.193,"end":2890.523,"text":"所有政府去跟他談的結果第二包括合約包括關稅你要降稅要經過立法院同意喔"},{"start":2897.014,"end":2921.915,"text":"最後簽字 最後同意的是立法院剛才我跟 請教我們的總部長我們總部長很認真地做了我問他一個問題 說如果我們不同意咧他看起來好像一路就不宣布不同意的樣子而已我向各位長官報告"},{"start":2923.533,"end":2951.295,"text":"最後要說怎麼過是立法院是立法院所以我們立法院可以做後盾今天我今天講這一話都正式的紀錄留下來我們就是我可以講我們不能接受美國要求我們的零關稅絕不接受絕不接受我們已經付出夠多了他現在跟越南的情況"},{"start":2953.833,"end":2976.047,"text":"專買增加天然氣天然氣我們要從原來的這個10%要變成30%從美國花錢免費從北極圈到阿拉斯卡的那個管線我們要負擔440億美金的三分之一那就是將近150億美金那就是4000多億台幣我們負擔的這筆錢"},{"start":2982.13,"end":3001.086,"text":"我們負負擔台積電一千億川普總統說兩千又說三千到底是什麼事我們付出不夠多嗎他們說喔越南又買了幾十架波音台灣沒有買波音嗎連七八七都買了台灣都先付啦還沒談就先付啦這種情況之下"},{"start":3007.162,"end":3021.415,"text":"我們的流水在談判的過程當中一開始你底牌揭露我們等於是跪著跟他談了能探出一個什麼好的地方外界高度質疑否則為什麼你們不宣布呢不講進度呢 全部黑箱"},{"start":3025.677,"end":3051.242,"text":"你可以看看日本的首相石破茂怎麼講 說七十零關稅 絕不接受美日關係多好啊在日本還有美國的駐軍多麼的依賴美國在保護他他都敢這樣說所以我們的官員從頭到尾沒有一個人在坑 敢跟美國說NO全部都說YES人家都沒開口 先給"},{"start":3052.942,"end":3068.807,"text":"我們談判是這樣談的所以等一下真的請政府的官員代表要跟我們講一下到底為什麼川普政府馬上要公佈世界一百多個國家馬上要公佈一口氣公佈"},{"start":3070.508,"end":3087.916,"text":"那時候就醜媳婦見公婆了那時候台灣怎麼樣就很清楚了沒有閃躲的空間但是現在外界另外一個質疑我剛才忘了講了現在想到很重要的質疑就是什麼其實早就談了 知道了"},{"start":3090.417,"end":3106.192,"text":"只是因為大罷免啊 因為談得不好 對大罷免不利所以把它拖啊 拖在7.26之後 甚至要拖到8.20之後因為8.23有第二體制的所有的罷免 8.23有另外一個體制所以 我要強調的是"},{"start":3116.259,"end":3141.201,"text":"這個是關係到我們的產業發展關係到我們的就業人口關係到台灣人的生存的問題我覺得真的拜託政府官員不要政治化不要政治化我再講一遍我代表個人我是台灣的立委監察委我代表個人零關稅絕對不能接受"},{"start":3144.178,"end":3154.833,"text":"如果你們談出來的結果不管怎麼抬到什麼20%啦 怎麼樣啦說台灣竟然是零關稅那就是上群入國謝謝好 謝謝賴市長來召委接著請黃國昌黃委員發言"},{"start":3176.914,"end":3200.87,"text":"謝謝主席首先感謝今天所有到場與會的學者專家產業界以及勞工界的代表你們所提出來的寶貴意見將會成為本院接下來在面對有關於台美關稅談判以及相關配套措施的時候非常重要的參考依據今天其實站在這邊參加這場公聽會感觸非常的深因為我第一次"},{"start":3202.136,"end":3229.152,"text":"站在同樣的這個講台參加有關於我國有關於對外經貿談判立法院到底應該要怎麼處理是2013年12月19號當時我是以中央研究院研究員的身份站在這個地方我們那時候大聲疾呼馬英九政府"},{"start":3230.679,"end":3246.105,"text":"對外有關於服貿的談判黑箱作業立法院該進行的程序不曉得在搞什麼東西那個時候跟非常多的學者專家我們在這一個"},{"start":3247.931,"end":3274.58,"text":"財政委員會所召開的公聽會 宛如狗吠火車因為那個時候的立法院 形同快要癱瘓了完全沒有辦法發揮任何監督制衡的功能所幸 微小的聲音得到了廣大的回應當時 民進黨的主席蔡英文終於站出來了"},{"start":3275.888,"end":3304.354,"text":"蔡英文說什麼國家對外貿易談判從開啟談判 談判過程到談判結果協議的審議都要有國會的參與才可以體現行政立法在對外談判上的權力分享與責任分擔的法則說得非常的好現在的民進黨政府有做到嗎當時不僅民進黨主席蔡英文跳出來了賴清德也跳出來了"},{"start":3305.27,"end":3331.696,"text":"他怎麼說一個對台灣政治經濟層面影響深遠的協議在事前以黑箱作業的方式沒有審慎評估各行各業所受的衝擊就已送入國會這是獨裁心態立法院舉辦公聽會要把公聽會的意見納入修正馬英九總統要求國會無條件接受一個字都不准改"},{"start":3333.71,"end":3351.589,"text":"這是什麼這是以個人的意志凌駕民主制度更是獨裁的心態 展露無遺說得太好了接下來民進黨出去外面的談判團隊會不會用相同的口氣要求國會一個字都不准改"},{"start":3352.489,"end":3365.243,"text":"你如果敢改就是破壞台美關係你如果敢改就是中共同路人我們等著看我們等著看事前事終根本什麼把當初的承諾當耳邊風把公民社會的參與把國會的參與"},{"start":3375.047,"end":3385.162,"text":"當什麼 當塑膠昨天外交國防委員會辦了巡打 辦巡打又怎麼樣上來 關槍關掉講了什麼東西啊"},{"start":3388.121,"end":3412.43,"text":"當初 鄭麗君 我們現在的行政院副院長談判的總代表怎麼講的不是只有簽署後的監督啊簽署前的談判過程就要讓社會參與 社會協商利益關係人必須被充分告知資訊今天有一些利益關係人 我相信已經坐在這邊我非常想知道 你們有沒有被告知資訊你們有沒有覺得有參與"},{"start":3416.454,"end":3438.701,"text":"受到衝擊的產業有被告知資訊嗎?有參與嗎?接下來可能會面臨重大負面影響的勞工有參與嗎?有被告知資訊嗎?還是大家串在地上等老實說啦正式最後的結果出來以前此時此刻的台灣早就受到傷害了過去兩三個月我們從北部到南部"},{"start":3445.27,"end":3466.874,"text":"密集拜訪了非常多的廠商跟勞工大家怕得要死但沒有人敢出來講為什麼沒有人敢出來講現在的政府肅殺氣氛很重啊怕被查水表啊誰敢出來講啊我現在出來講那接下來立法院通過好不容易要去補助產業補助勞工的會不會因此拿不到會不會被關切"},{"start":3472.674,"end":3494.72,"text":"什麼時候台灣的一個民主社會面對這麼重大的經貿議題啊靜若寒蟬我最後啊只想要補充一件事情或許有人說當年是在跟中國談判啊中國是我們的敵國跟美國談判美國是我們最好的朋友態度應該不一樣我提醒一下民進黨當初我們要改的"},{"start":3501.417,"end":3530.811,"text":"除了兩岸協議監督條例以外還有條約締結法這個是民進黨當初提出的條約締結法修正草案他們提的修正草案他們的條約締結法說要建立標準化與透明化的條約締結程序要明定國會在締約前後的參與以及監督具體的條文我不唸了在立法院公報都有現在資訊非常發達大家都google的到"},{"start":3532.356,"end":3545.882,"text":"剛剛有在討論說如果涉及法律的修正那國會要怎麼處理這件事情很簡單我為什麼會說這件事情很簡單十一年前就討論過了締結計畫的提出與成行第一個階段"},{"start":3549.522,"end":3574.402,"text":"依照締結計畫進行協商第二個階段完成協商後正式簽署前第三個階段國會審查第四個階段簽署後的監督第五個階段這是當初多少學者專家大家共同智慧的接近在一個當代的民主國家當中牽涉到這麼重大的經貿談判"},{"start":3576.363,"end":3601.731,"text":"在國內的民主程序應該要如何進行產業勞工要如何參與國會要如何監督法律修正要如何配合只不過很遺憾當初參與提出這些意見的學者專家現在全部都到民進黨去當官全部都到民進黨去當官當了官的這些人完全忘了當初"},{"start":3602.898,"end":3629.465,"text":"的主張對台灣民眾黨而言我們願意全力做我們政府的後盾但是請民進黨不要忘了當初的承諾不要把國會當橡膠把台灣的民主當空氣接下來我們會用盡所有的力量跟我們的產業跟我們的勞工跟我們台灣的農漁民站在一起追求台灣最高的國家利益 謝謝"},{"start":3632.281,"end":3640.912,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌黃委員接著請中華民國全國總工會秘書長溫中瑜請溫先生發言"},{"start":3653.781,"end":3677.651,"text":"謝謝主席中華民國群工總工會在這邊發言代表勞工發言中華民國群工總工會雖然是勞工團體但是當企業不好過的時候勞工也不會有好日子所以我們必須關注關稅對於企業之方的影響所以我們和中部的幾個產業進行了一些訪談譬如說水五金、電子還有模具等相關產業就美國關稅問題進行深入的對談討論那我們目前歸納出兩個意見"},{"start":3682.814,"end":3706.213,"text":"廠商最在意的就是關於匯率的波動對產業的影響是最大的再來就是其實是關稅的影響以匯率來說我們這邊收到的一些意見就是關於如果說匯率的波動如果台幣升破29那對產業的影響當台幣升值的時候除了減少廠商的獲利之外台灣的出口產品也會變貴這就失去了"},{"start":3707.894,"end":3717.937,"text":"價格上的優勢我舉個實例來講也是我們所了解到的就是關於台中的那個Buffalo工具機它運用計畫性生產方式要來拼新櫃結果因為美國關稅問題再加上訂單的大量減少"},{"start":3724.284,"end":3738.349,"text":"那又遇到台幣的大幅增值因為他們是做高精密而且高價格的高檔機器那遇到日幣貶值又台幣大幅增值工具機的價格和日本製造的其實差不多了所以問大家一個問題"},{"start":3740.977,"end":3753.593,"text":"當國產豐田汽車跟賓士差不多價錢的時候你會買哪一種車這也導致公司無法行賄上市而被併供這就是現在匯率影響一下台灣的廠商的途徑那再來是關稅"},{"start":3755.035,"end":3776.209,"text":"台灣企業主要競爭對手是在於中國、韓國、日本和東南亞等國家當我們關稅高於這幾個國家的時候雖然說關稅大部分是由買方這邊來承擔但相對就會降低一定的競爭力所以建議關稅的部分應該是要低於競爭對手那中華民國全國總工會作為全國勞工的代表對於本市台美關稅協商"},{"start":3778.228,"end":3784.555,"text":"深深感到此事不僅牽動到產業靈脈更加直接影響基層勞工的工作權與生活穩定"},{"start":3785.731,"end":3809.028,"text":"再來看我們這次公聽會的主要三大的題目全總這邊總結一個問題的根源就如剛剛那個黃國昌委員所講的資訊不透明並且沒有充分溝通也並沒有讓多方來參與所以針對這三個議題全總在這邊提出以下的建議第一個關於台美關稅談判的民主監督跟法律程序問題"},{"start":3811.289,"end":3824.917,"text":"經貿協商過程必須透明而且必須取得社會信任依據條例第六條及第八條行政機關應該主動向立法院來報告並且依程序審查所以前總建議啟動國會報告以及社會諮詢程序尤其應該納入商業總會、工業總會還有全國總工會的意見"},{"start":3830.62,"end":3851.38,"text":"第二個建立三階段民主監督機制就是剛剛也有提到的事前報告、事後諮詢以及事後的審議那第三個強化透明談判度以避免以技術細節掩蓋重大政策方向導致民眾失去監督的能力這是關於第一個議題的建議那第二個因應美方關稅衝擊的產業對策與經貿戰略調整我們這邊提供的建議如下"},{"start":3856.204,"end":3883.545,"text":"台美關稅協商看起來像是貿易條件的重新討論但卻暗藏了整體產業結構跟勞動市場的影響以出口導向出口為導向的半導體資通訊產業到廣大的中小企業過去長期仰賴外交市場今天面對關稅壁壘的調整是首當其衝所以建議政府參考新加坡方式建立經濟韌性特別工作小組協助開拓歐洲中國市場尤其中國是第二大經濟體更不能視而不見"},{"start":3884.466,"end":3894.723,"text":"那近三個月可以觀察到企業已經開始面臨壓力匯率升高訂單波動跟關稅問題選擇未解職業變化最直接影響到是轉嫁到第一線勞工身上"},{"start":3895.816,"end":3917.443,"text":"公司減少工時凍結加班逐步實施減班休息甚至考慮裁員是基層勞工現在正在面對的問題所以全總認為政府若謹以產業補貼付罪減免等策略來應對恐怕難以觸及問題的核心建立制度化並長期可運作的就業與產業轉型三方協作機制"},{"start":3918.163,"end":3939.079,"text":"日本跟新加坡都已經有建立長色性的三方平台台灣仍然缺乏應對的架構所以我們要打破各自為政的現況建立共共政策共擔責任共享成果的三方平台唯有透過勞資政三方共同參與才能形成真正有溝通有責任有執行力的政策"},{"start":3940.393,"end":3954.355,"text":"所以針對三方平臺建議我們具體建議如下由政府主導結合企業與工會建立三方平臺及時掌握產業變動訂單波動對勞動市場的影響並整合產業轉型計畫勞工執訓與就業媒合等政策工具減少資訊的落差那這三方平臺的成員主要建議韓國勞動部、經濟部、全總產總工總、商總、工商協經會、產業工協會等代表"},{"start":3969.258,"end":3988.732,"text":"那它供應主要是針對危機環境的比方說關稅、疫情、產業衝擊跟AI取代性工作等進行快速反應、自定應對與資源分配的機制那主要的結合是可以由地區型來推動、地區型的小組來推動針對我們一些第一個受到衝擊的產業比如說台中、彰化、中科、遠區這類或產業代表團體進行推動"},{"start":3992.81,"end":4010.228,"text":"那再來就是我們建議制定勞工在培訓計畫因為目前青年待業率仍然高於7%那中高齡求職者平均待業時間超過半年我們必須聚焦在聚焦在中高齡勞工與青年族群提供專業技能培訓課程並結合產業趨勢與實際需求如綠能"},{"start":4013.912,"end":4030.723,"text":"數位製造、跨境整合、AI應用等協助勞工職涯中不中斷並且針對繼續工作的退休人員除了職業再訓練外給予一定額度的免稅鼓勵再就業此外同時會過減免賦稅鼓勵大家加入工會"},{"start":4032.957,"end":4061.632,"text":"第三個 針對平台的建議的部分推動企業實施無裁員條款來換取政府補貼建立合理遊營讓企業在接受政府協助的同時承諾保障勞工基本就業穩定但是補貼只是短期措施中長期目標能需要協助企業轉型經濟部應該也要建立一個轉型基金之類的簡化申請流程提高補助金額並透過三方協作平台長期且持續的溝通減少政策與實際的落差"},{"start":4062.83,"end":4084.638,"text":"那第四個必須將勞動條件影響評估制度化納入未來重大經濟協商與法規調整的程序中讓勞工處境不再是承受政策變動的最後一環尤其是產業轉型過程中企業面對壓力往往第一步就會先從人力成本調整減班休息變成最常營運的方式所以全種呼籲政府"},{"start":4086.158,"end":4104.564,"text":"補強通報及補助制度設計企業若有實施減班休息的時候應該依法與勞工協商並簽訂書面協議而且必須在實施前主動通報主管目前為通報者並無罰則建議盡速修法賦予主管機關必要處置權限確保通報制度落實真正發揮保護與輔導功能"},{"start":4107.865,"end":4128.102,"text":"通報後的企業可申請僱用安定措施政府提供工資補貼跟營運支援而勞工亦可以申請充電再出發執訓方案作為執訓強化與轉職準備但目前我們可申請僱用安定措施的產業類別極為有限僅限於橡膠製造業、機械設備製造跟其他運輸工具及零件製造業"},{"start":4128.903,"end":4144.11,"text":"因應在擴大範圍包括資通訊產業、電子零件製造、中小型外銷產業等高風險部門納入真正做到提前預警、事後準備最後針對兼顧安全與農業利益之衝擊及政府因應措施的部分"},{"start":4145.21,"end":4165.398,"text":"我們支持自由貿易但是自由貿易的前提必須在公平與公平教育與風險補償機制下所以全總期盼政府在進行經貿協商的時候納入多元社會意見確保談判結果兼顧產業發展與公平共同為台灣打造具韌性與永續的未來以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝全總溫中瑜秘書長"},{"start":4173.123,"end":4198.571,"text":"接著請劉勝明,桃園市總工會副理事長發言好,主席,以及各位官員跟專家學者,大家早上好"},{"start":4199.693,"end":4208.143,"text":"本人代表桃園市總工會來進行這邊做說明本人是勞工代表這一次的關稅議題那個進口車"},{"start":4211.903,"end":4231.453,"text":"可能對美國進口台灣的進口車可能會造成最終的結果可能會有零關稅的現象這個完全都沒有跟老方來進行溝通或協商那也沒有讓勞工非常清楚的了解評估這樣子的零關稅所帶來的失業的效率那政府"},{"start":4232.554,"end":4261.53,"text":"不管對外的談判貿易上的談判的一些事項是否也要來跟勞工做說明這一點政府在做的部分是完全都沒有那我們這邊勞工團體非常的對政府非常的失望政府整體都黑箱在作業完全都沒有召開勞資政三方面的會談來去跟勞方來去做友善的一些傳達溝通或者是進而了解勞方所想要了解的一些事項"},{"start":4262.85,"end":4289.676,"text":"那我們也會 汽車產業這邊因為桃園是汽車產業的重鎮現階段台灣六大生產國產車的汽車廠裡面有三家在桃園那普遍都是分布在桃竹苗地區那其實就業人口整體從上游到下游包括零件業的整體就業人口預估的工作人數有30萬人那平均的年齡都是在40歲到50歲之間"},{"start":4292.093,"end":4316.385,"text":"那這一波的零關稅如果未來導致工作權的喪失都是中高齡失業那長期勞動部在扶植中高齡就是非常吃力的一份工作那後續如果我們這些人口都失業的時候政府是否有評估這些失業人口你要如何讓他轉型再就業其實是相當困難的而且此時此刻我們大家坐在這邊吹著冷氣"},{"start":4318.206,"end":4337.654,"text":"然後來去做這樣子的研討會可是我們勞工兄弟朋友我們尤其汽車這個產業我們的勞工勞動的那個張力是非常的大從上班的第一分鐘開始就衣服沒有乾過汗水就一直流流到下班的那一刻為止那"},{"start":4338.581,"end":4355.167,"text":"我們也曾經透過立法委員向政府單位去做一些友善的溝通的時候大而殘之的說我們可以幫你轉行到台積電啊科技園區啊可是我們有這樣子的勞動競爭力嗎"},{"start":4357.949,"end":4374.938,"text":"這個勞動部從來也沒有去設想過以為轉職就業就是這麼輕鬆的一件事情好像他指派你去哪裡工作那個公司都一定會照單全收那事實上是這樣子的嗎我們也是非常的擔憂啦然後再來一個是汽車產業真的有像過去的立法委員講的這麼惡質嗎"},{"start":4377.369,"end":4391.363,"text":"一直說我們是扶不起的阿斗是長期受國家保護的產業真的是這樣子嗎有沒有什麼樣的數據可以去證明去調查咧還有國人買到高額的車輛的新車"},{"start":4394.758,"end":4419.321,"text":"真的是因為這些扶不起的阿斗造成的嗎我們的貨物稅從民國五、六十年代當時因為沒有奢侈稅的稅率的限制用貨物稅來取代奢侈稅然後那時候的車輛率民眾可以購買車輛的能力也有限所以當時就收了25%高額的貨物稅一直到現在這樣子不當的稅率政策也沒有改變啊"},{"start":4420.382,"end":4435.443,"text":"如果真的大家各個民意代表還是立法委員想要全國的人民買到便宜的車子應該是要從貨物稅去做修法而不是從進口關稅沒有保障勞工的工作權益的情況下去擅自去做更改"},{"start":4436.244,"end":4455.226,"text":"這是我們桃園的勞工想要來去闡述的一件事情以及我們汽車產業也配合著政府的政策持續的在提高我們自己的自治率那我們現在也知道包括美國所生產的汽車當中也很多的零組件都是中國大陸外銷過去的"},{"start":4456.247,"end":4481.336,"text":"全世界的工廠都是單一我們的應該是說每一個零件它都是全球標全球哪一個國家生產出來的零件便宜那我們就從那個國家去做購買所以才會有這一次的這個貿易的一些協定的簽出來的方式那我們還是政府在配合需要我們輔導我們自治率要提升的同時都沒有想過這個產業的艱辛"},{"start":4483.317,"end":4511.924,"text":"而且我們是創造極大化的勞工就業的人口那這邊還是在此呼籲啦希望說未來的配套要有效有措施的而且要跟勞方來進行溝通希望說未來國家的政策能夠保護我們這些相關勞工的一些權益那最後還有就是希望說能開啟協商的窗口啦那跟勞方做有效的溝通"},{"start":4513.682,"end":4518.906,"text":"我報告比較簡短 以上 謝謝好 謝謝劉聖民副理事長接著請張祺凱 張委員發言"},{"start":4552.072,"end":4560.365,"text":"賴清德在2014年批評國民黨政府說事前黑箱作業為評估衝擊是獨裁心態"},{"start":4564.508,"end":4591.078,"text":"現在民進黨政府對於這次美國高關稅這個談判這麼重要的事情到目前是不溝通不說明不讓立法院也不讓產業不讓公民社會一起來參與這是何其嚴重的問題很謝謝今天有這一場重要的公聽會我們今天有這麼多的專家學者包括杜振華杜教授吳志奎吳副秘書長"},{"start":4592.866,"end":4616.008,"text":"劉聖明、劉副理事長、溫忠義秘書長、王安祥、王教授、蔡明芳教授還有劉孟俊、劉所長跟嘉欣,我們最強的菜農農民代表我們期待今天有這麼多官員來好好傾聽把重點記下來特別是趕快溝通"},{"start":4617.858,"end":4642.959,"text":"趕快說明趕快溝通 趕快說明因為時間已經到了談判那麼多次 你馬上就要公佈了結果到目前都是黑箱作業全世界現有哪一個民主國家跟美國這次的談判裡面像台灣是這樣黑箱的而且馬上就要定案了希望今天這個公聽會是一個好的一個開始請聽專家學者跟代表的聲音之後請"},{"start":4644.636,"end":4668.9,"text":"民進黨政府趕快把門打開趕快溝通趕快說明另外我要特別強調請政府要特別注意你跟美國答應的事情如果衝擊到哪些重要產業甚至可能會被犧牲的這幾天一定要先溝通你不要隨隨便便去答應不要答應了之後"},{"start":4671.143,"end":4686.75,"text":"國內我相信很多人是沒辦法接受的剛剛已經有好多位立委已經提到了如果你真的去談了一個美國對美零關稅回來我請提醒之前賴清德賴總統講說我們可以從零關稅開始談的時候養豬協會養雞協會一些農民都跳起來了你看"},{"start":4695.936,"end":4704.339,"text":"稻米方面美國的價格比我們低那麼多它又是大面積的這個耕種這個一進來這對我們稻米這是媚容計畫養豬協會理事長他們都已經出來講了各個產業都已經講了請讓我們參與更重要的不要犧牲我們到目前為止很多人看到的講說我們不要"},{"start":4727.383,"end":4754.923,"text":"高於25%25%會是一個很重要的臨界點因為我們的主要競爭對手南韓日本都是25%可是我更要提醒了不只不要跟比競爭對手高的同時我們到底拿了什麼去換現在比25%低的有兩個國家一個是越南一個是印尼這跟台灣都有相當的關係越南去換了什麼越南雖然降到20"},{"start":4756.394,"end":4777.475,"text":"可是在美國所有的產品進越南零零我相信如果美國所有產品進來包括農業包括汽車產業這一些如果是零我相信台灣民眾不會接受立法院也不會通過趕快說明趕快跟我們溝通我們不會像越南這樣子第二個印尼"},{"start":4778.533,"end":4805.519,"text":"印尼雖然是20% 它採購了150億的美國能源45億的農產品 還跟波音那邊訂購了50架飛機這裡面我特別要強調的剛講農產品第二個 天然氣經濟部部長我在問他的時候他說我們目前跟美國買的天然氣佔我們所有100%裡面的10%他說會增加2到3倍"},{"start":4807.162,"end":4831.644,"text":"我們現在又跟阿拉斯加的天然氣公司又簽了意向書連賴清德總統都講我們要擴大對美這個採購顯然天然氣這一塊不只是量會增加連這個投資都會進去我們明確的要求價格不能太高第二個你如果要投資像路透社講的還要投資它基礎建設包括一起去開採還有管線這個"},{"start":4834.773,"end":4859.906,"text":"他總金額超過一兆兩千億 台灣到底要負責多少這個都要盡快跟國人要講清楚連國外的路透社 國外媒體都報導了 台灣人不知道這可不可以消耗嘛 這樣怎麼對得起我們台灣民眾呢這天要傳出來 主權基金有沒有被要求 到底要做哪些的投資"},{"start":4862.409,"end":4885.575,"text":"請盡快跟全民講清楚好 今天最主要是請聽寫者專家的這個聲音我要誠懇 誠懇也是做一個非常嚴正的要求馬上就要拍板定案了請所有官員只要是知道你的產業北你主管的機關裡面有受到影響的請盡快說明 盡快溝通不要再黑箱下去 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱 張委員"},{"start":4892.83,"end":4896.359,"text":"接著請車輛工業同業工會副秘書長吳志葵"},{"start":4910.629,"end":4937.617,"text":"主席各位委員我們各位政府部門長官還有我們這個各位賢警大家好我是車輛工業同業工會副秘書長吳志奎今天很榮幸能接受邀請來跟各位報告我們相關汽車產業的一些現況還有在這波美國關稅這個衝擊的影響跟大家來分享我想會"},{"start":4940.798,"end":4963.788,"text":"專門請這個來談這個汽車產業因為在當前我們國內的經濟環境以出口為導向的ICT產品已經占我們整個出口已經占了65%那相關的壓縮到我們傳承產業的一個發展那待會我也會跟各位報告那今天準備的資料我還是首先要向各位來報告我們汽車產業一些概況我想"},{"start":4965.089,"end":4991.097,"text":"近年來大家都對我們汽車產業汽車國內汽車工業發展都提出了很多的指教但是我相信在這麼多年來的一個發展的一個基礎對社會對政府對這個人民的貢獻政府部門應該心中自有一把尺那這個這個到"},{"start":5003.012,"end":5020.801,"text":"會動嗎我想汽車是全球國家都非常在意的一個產業我們國家的地位我們在全球排名是我們的土地大小140我們人口占了第57位可是我們的汽車市場45、6萬到47萬占了全球"},{"start":5024.093,"end":5044.867,"text":"第26、27位而且我們的NCAP是第13個國家有這樣的NCAP對消費者的保護的要求所以是一個已經非常成熟競爭的市場在市場上我們有52款超過50款的品牌在國內販售"},{"start":5046.735,"end":5075.166,"text":"有200款以上的車型在販賣這已經是非常自由競爭的一個社會一個市場那大家都質疑為什麼國產車賣得比較貴這其中必然有它其背後的原因大家應該要去探究而不是去質疑說我們為什麼因為公會的功能就是希望政府能營造一個對製造業友善的環境但是到目前來看還是有些不足的地方我待會會提出來"},{"start":5078.608,"end":5083.994,"text":"所以我們的汽車市場一直在維持穩定的一個46萬去年我們的關稅收入是450億"},{"start":5090.402,"end":5105.899,"text":"貨物稅超過八百億加起來要一千三四百億這是非常對我們經濟社會是一個非常穩定的一個力量尤其我們的過去幾年的市場數量的穩定造就了這個就業的機會還有我們"},{"start":5108.649,"end":5137.318,"text":"每年稅收從我們汽車業也是相當穩定的一個支撐的力量所以即使在其他國家當一個經濟情況在一個萎縮情況始終都是把汽車當作一個標的因為它產值大因為它單價高所以這個過去幾年都有相當不錯的成績事實上我們也在做外銷最高峰的時候在2014年"},{"start":5139.502,"end":5166.616,"text":"即將突破十萬因為外銷的狀況在海外的競爭有所不同所以這幾年但是還都能維持到四萬輛的一個外銷的情況汽車最大的特性上中下游的供應鏈是需要非常完整而且是非常講究一個品質所以在QCD方面我敢說在所有產業裡面"},{"start":5168.328,"end":5196.823,"text":"我們汽車產業是絕對是大家一個學習的標竿我們問中鋼就好了中鋼以前從來沒有辦法進入汽車市場是因為在2020年左右開始我們汽車廠使用中鋼的高強度鋼板之後中鋼才有建立跟汽車提供汽車原材料的機會還有外銷的機會如果一旦國內沒有這個廠的支持"},{"start":5198.052,"end":5223.574,"text":"不要講中鋼了我們相關的供應鏈一定都發生困難我們之前幾個月前我們還聽到有委員辦公室說我們汽車產業只有一家就是某一家的集團我聽了是非常訝異所以今天還是非常要跟各位報告汽車產業是一個非常這個"},{"start":5225.031,"end":5235.744,"text":"有具有巨弱的一个产业我们在北部桃园有4家车厂所以他相关的零组件在"},{"start":5236.921,"end":5263.883,"text":"觀音在這個龍潭都有非常的零件的這個廠家在中部尤其是在中部最主要就是台中工業區彰化、鹿港、彰濱工業區在南部永康永康更是我們這個零件外銷的一個大本營這個都需要政府持續的關注跟協助"},{"start":5265.51,"end":5285.999,"text":"那這產生就是大家參考基本上如果能有機會繼續努力尤其現在有關自動性運用到車上面的未來的汽車產業加零件產業絕對有機會突破兆元但是在這個生存的關卡上面看政府是不是給產業一個機會"},{"start":5289.171,"end":5307.161,"text":"關於這個價值我就不再多提那當然現階段事實上在這些產業一直呼籲希望優先調降貨物稅而不是關稅我們後面會來提"},{"start":5309.276,"end":5332.765,"text":"最主要我還是要提到川普對我們這個影響4月3號其實美國川普第一件宣誓的事情就是對他的汽車業及他的員工說我會保護你們我會支持我們的就業機會我會支持我們汽車產業所以第一個提出來的對汽車的關稅的提高後面才有4月5號的所謂對等關稅"},{"start":5335.967,"end":5354.113,"text":"四月就開始談到現在我們還沒有一個結論但是其他國家相對都已經陸續發布了各位可以參考但是因為我們是對美國我要再強調美國他自己的市場他自己的車廠三大車廠"},{"start":5356.513,"end":5384.032,"text":"究竟都製造哪些車子事實上95% 97%都是製造pick up為什麼日本跟美國談不了進口的問題很顯然美國自己不做乘用車我今天簡報就顯示美國不做乘用車做乘用車的都是外商包括日本的HondaToyota Nissan"},{"start":5386.141,"end":5410.333,"text":"再來就是現代即使歐洲VWBMWBenz在美國都沒有做乘用車將來如果開放會進來是什麼車大家可以去思考我這要談的再跟大家refresh我們政府實在反應很快讓總統4月6號馬上對應第一個談的就是零關稅可見"},{"start":5415.373,"end":5437.808,"text":"我們可以來檢驗對外談判迎合美國看起來百分之百實踐但問題是對內對我們的產業的說明對我們產業的溝通做了多少分有待大家來評論看看政府做了多少事情"},{"start":5440.834,"end":5469.015,"text":"再來出口為什麼會談汽車因為65%都是ICT產品我們汽車零配件去年72億在我們非ICT產業裡面除了石化之外就是我們汽車其他的都幾乎在衰退之中為什麼我們汽車業可以表現這麼好而且我們一半的市場幾乎就是放在美國美國是我們汽車零件輸往的50%"},{"start":5472.975,"end":5500.098,"text":"這個給大家參考其他國家因為季節的不同而有變化排名但是美國一直是第一位所以對我們汽車業來講外販出口原來只有2點多的關稅現在可能要提升到25到30競爭力還在不在就看我們政府談判的結果如何"},{"start":5501.806,"end":5528.504,"text":"那另外提出這個原產地的問題如果我們真的是開放美國零關稅進來那什麼叫做美國製我只是提醒因為政府一直強調原產地不要洗產地將來可能輸進來的可能是TOYOTA的可能是HONDA的那這些品牌算不算美國製"},{"start":5532.574,"end":5559.381,"text":"在國際的準則上面本來就有很明確的規則但是現在都被打破了我們出口事實上對汽車零件最重要的是一個實質轉型我們汽車零件進口零組件加工出口從來不會有什麼洗產地的問題我希望政府這個部分再講清楚我們汽車零件絕對不會洗產地"},{"start":5564.603,"end":5587.202,"text":"這是美國他的規則那將來我們是不是要制定美國原產地的規則那是不是要比照大家思考公衛訴求事實上我們在5月12就已經蔡委會有個公聽會已經表達很多意見第一個當然就是大家最關切的關稅我們一直講17.5是不是很高"},{"start":5589.724,"end":5615.263,"text":"以我們國內市場的量跟其他國家前幾大市場他們的關稅的比較大家可以有一個公論什麼才是我們合理的關稅那我們要降為零是比別人更有辦法能力承受嗎第二我剛才講要一個合理公平一個完善的一個製造環境"},{"start":5617.154,"end":5638.093,"text":"當別的國家都是進口低關稅的零件組裝自動化輸往台灣你說到價格競爭力有沒有那台灣整車17.5我們很多的關稅都是超過12.5 15 17.5你叫我們汽車整車產業怎麼去降低成本"},{"start":5639.434,"end":5664.468,"text":"所以不要一直認為說是車廠不願意降低成本很多是制度讓車廠沒辦法降低成本OK公費訴求剛剛有談了我們很多的歷次的談判我都列出來從WTO因為10年的關係所以跟產業都非常有長的調適到後面ECFA"},{"start":5665.583,"end":5689.922,"text":"甚至RCEP到CPTPP我們都很努力說我們有機會我們產業都一起打拚努力怎麼樣來達成任務沒有一項成功反而不需要跟產業溝通就認為說我們已經很成功了這個是我們需要思考OK這個政策貨物稅我就不再提"},{"start":5691.786,"end":5713.884,"text":"另外老舊車輛始終是這個大環境的問題是不是利用了機會可以長可久的淘汰老舊車輛對整體大環境的幫助最終什麼是最壞的狀況出口要科高關稅進口沒阻礙變成零關稅到頭來誰會哭誰會笑勞工笑著出場老闆說"},{"start":5720.219,"end":5749.25,"text":"我也很想努力政府不讓我努力誰會笑貿易商笑了昨天新聞台灣賓士馬上跳出來我要零關稅反映的是說你違反WTO你一直給美國你沒給Benz我政府要去思考啊但是反映的事情第一個"},{"start":5750.759,"end":5778.688,"text":"台灣錢真的很好賺台灣真的是一個賺錢的地方所以誰笑著進場貿易商笑著進場消費者會不會笑是說我可能受益成本買車可是消費者還是弱勢在看來都是一個被等著讓人賺錢的一個目標"},{"start":5779.79,"end":5787.053,"text":"好 以上拉拉遭遭 有機會再給各位好 謝謝石亮工業同業工會的副秘書長吳志奎 謝謝我們可以從談話中看到對三十萬的員工來講影響置身且懼請一些主管機關不得不慎接著請本院劉書斌立法委員 劉委員"},{"start":5817.996,"end":5831.826,"text":"謝謝主席今天首先非常感謝有來自學界還有汽車同業工會還有工會代表跟農民學者有八位的來賓來參加這次的公聽會讓我們來聽到基層的聲音杜振華教授在這裡還有王安祥的教授在這裡我們現在最重要來談論這個議題就是台灣是美國第七大的貿易夥伴"},{"start":5846.658,"end":5862.625,"text":"那在過去的這時間到現在為止呢包括我們的競爭對手日本韓國還有歐盟美國都已經說出了對他們的一個談判的關稅是多少但是到現在我們還是沒有得到"},{"start":5863.966,"end":5872.474,"text":"關稅到底是多少的這個答案那我們就在懷疑是不是在談判之前台積電已經送出去了還包括在談判期間當中傳出來了天然氣還有波音飛機能源的這些部分還有國防武器在這個"},{"start":5881.664,"end":5883.646,"text":"條件都送出去之後呢還有沒有談成的那這樣子是不是有可能會犧牲到我們台灣的人民跟產業的利益呢因此我們民眾黨主張必須以資訊公開立法監督"},{"start":5897.526,"end":5903.568,"text":"產業保護及積極協商四個原則來尋求行政部門他必須來提升談判的一個透明度來落實國會監督來正視社會多元利益來主動回應產業界跟民眾的一個焦慮這主要是基於過去在2013年的時候福茂強犯協議的這樣的一個警醒"},{"start":5922.503,"end":5931.826,"text":"如果不是這樣的情況之下呢到時候會發生到台灣內部的共識跟經濟安全的基本條件被維護這樣的問題那談判如果沒有辦法兼顧到公開審議配套跟產業的合作的情況之下呢這就會加劇到社會的這種對立因此政策的脫貧產業補償跟全民參與是非常必要的"},{"start":5947.791,"end":5952.853,"text":"那我現在再繼續根據在現在各個部會他們的報告當中的一些問題我提出來我的一個看法第一個在關於經濟部分經濟部分它部分裡面有講到所謂佈局全球要開拓的這個全球的市場"},{"start":5965.498,"end":5984.206,"text":"但是經濟部這邊只重視到東歐、日本、美國、菲律賓等貿易夥伴並沒有考慮到說針對人口最多的印度還包括在土耳其在回教市場的一個開拓尤其是說還要在美國去設立投資的一個貿易中心這是非常令人奇怪的這樣的一個說法"},{"start":5986.047,"end":5991.312,"text":"但另外我們也關注到是一直在強調對美國的這個避免雙重關稅的協定課稅的這個問題是很重要的有沒有列入到現在跟美國的談判的議題當中呢那如果已經納入了目前的談判的結果是怎麼樣是證明其實是很關切的"},{"start":6004.665,"end":6006.488,"text":"另外一個針對財政部財政部他對於洗產地的防範有提到但是他缺乏了確實揭露洗產地的查緝數據還有查核流程跟MIT"},{"start":6020.59,"end":6025.535,"text":"標章檢證的成效這部分也要說明第二部分我們看到是在鋼鐵汽車反傾銷跟平衡稅的重大項目上面財政部大力報告美方的關切清單但是並沒有看到明確的產業方向的支持跟影響的財政分析報告"},{"start":6039.989,"end":6043.011,"text":"所以財政部應該把過去兩年產業受到台美貿易的措施的具體的損失跟未來潛在的影響要做一個報告出來第三個針對農業部農業部它直指美國的貿易產品我們進口到美國產品是22.3%那出口是17.6%"},{"start":6061.903,"end":6081.388,"text":"那對於對美方們可能要加劇徵收的這個產業農業項目呢是不是應該要公開或分類它的成效評估跟預警的這個報表讓社會知道到底哪些的產業是最脆弱的哪些是最急迫要去處理的這樣子才是有幫助的"},{"start":6082.108,"end":6098.244,"text":"另外我們看到是民眾都在擔憂這些部分就是說對於現行談判他並沒有能夠及時回應到貿易順差從產品標示汽車關稅的這些美方注意的焦點是重要的敏感的議題長期懸而不決加重了產業的負擔這部分要去進行的"},{"start":6102.208,"end":6119.718,"text":"最後我們要看到的是民眾黨再次強調的是要重視的是產資訊公開立法的監督要落實還有產業保護跟積極的做協商這樣才能夠確保我們的利益能夠繼續被保持住好 謝謝好 謝謝劉淑冰 劉委員接著請"},{"start":6130.252,"end":6135.269,"text":"國立中正大學勞工關係學校教授王安祥 王教授"},{"start":6154.581,"end":6174.237,"text":"主席還有現場各位先進大家早安非常榮幸能夠應立法院查委會這邊的邀請來參與今天的公聽會作為一個在中南部教書的勞動學者其實我深刻的感受到尤其在我們很多中南部的傳統產業不論是業者"},{"start":6177.199,"end":6196.115,"text":"或是從業的人員尤其這些剛剛很多我們勞動工會的朋友跟大家說明的非常憂心的一個部分所以我今天大概就我最近的一些觀察跟我最近看到一些現象就整個勞動的一個概念大概跟大家做一個說明跟一個建議"},{"start":6199.454,"end":6218.901,"text":"我想從四月份開始就看到美國提出了關稅的一個事情我也在很多場合做很多報告這個報告其實改了非常非常多次我們現在大概都知道川普美國政府大概劍指其實不是在關稅就是出了所謂的貿易的逆差我想現在都沒有問題在四月的時候"},{"start":6219.921,"end":6237.629,"text":"其實台灣被指派的關稅稅率是32%不過後來降到10%之後我們現在都引頸期盼不曉得會有什麼樣的結果那當然剛剛前面很多的先進會的委員都已經提到了我想先進的社會我們在學校教書或是我在外面做倡議我想資訊透明"},{"start":6241.39,"end":6268.601,"text":"這個好幾方的協商其實是一個先進國家必要的一個程序我想過去這幾十年來有非常多的學者或者是從政的朋友們我們參與了這些事情我希望在這一次談判的時候能夠有更多人的參與那當然經貿辦這邊的我想這個談判代表非常辛苦因為過去看到這個21世紀的談判的時候看到很多的談判代表其實都剛好時間是顛倒了非常辛苦不過我想"},{"start":6269.321,"end":6288.987,"text":"我們在台灣的這些產官學的這些人都願意做大家這些第一線談判代表的最好的後盾所以還是希望在談判的過程中能夠公開一些必要的資訊事後可以踐行我們國內的一些法治程序這個等下我等會跟大家說明"},{"start":6291.449,"end":6313.287,"text":"不過這幾天看起來 就算收到通知函 收到信之後也許也不是最後的結論也許也是一個談判的籌碼從昨天的一米就可以看到 它降到19%不過看到19% 也許也有另外的擔憂昨天這個參選會的理事長也有特別提到所以他們擔心另外一個部分 就是匯率的問題"},{"start":6314.248,"end":6338.878,"text":"這個我想很多產業也非常非常的憂心那最近幾天這個匯率的事情其實大家都有目共睹當然很多人說這個沒有受到壓力可是看起來這一波匯率的上漲對國內的產業可能會有非常大的影響那當然在我們投影片上這個幾個在蘇美上非常重要的這些項目產品的項目當然就非常重要不過我想這個"},{"start":6340.299,"end":6355.531,"text":"看到川普的關稅的這個事情之後其實好像恍如隔世因為我立刻就想起了前幾年的這個台美的21世紀貿易倡議而且我們在初步都已經有了五項基本上已經達成協定了所以基本上"},{"start":6356.672,"end":6384.55,"text":"我們過去應該有一些很好的經驗大概可以做一些表率剛剛有一些委員跟代表大家都提到我們希望進行在法律的程序上必須要完備也就是說不管任何的談判結果我們都希望上次21世紀談判初步的協定基本上送到立法院來還有進行實質上的審議的部分我想就第一線的談判代表來"},{"start":6386.911,"end":6413.912,"text":"對 這個所面臨的壓力來說我想後方我們給大家的協助或者是必須要經過立法院的同意我想是在談判上非常好的一個籌碼所以我們也希望能夠視為是一個條約能夠進行這個條約締結法相關的一些程序因為這件事情其實涉及到人民權利義務而且在財政經濟跟國內法上可能有明顯的不一致這也是我今天非常重要的一個建議"},{"start":6414.933,"end":6440.245,"text":"那就我最近的觀察台灣的這個產業的處境因為我們過去啊這個follow美國的一些建議其實我們有把一些產業往南向部分來做一些移轉那這個可能這次會受到一些影響那這個賴總統在這個第一時間就說了這幾件事情我想現在這個台北代表大概在進行這樣的程序我們也非常這個拭目以待"},{"start":6440.825,"end":6455.642,"text":"那上個禮拜我們這個所謂的這個特別條例也剛剛通過這個國民黨的版本那這裡面其實也有這個所謂的支持安定就業的部分因為我今天主要著重在這個就業的部分那勞動部"},{"start":6455.962,"end":6478.211,"text":"在他的網站上從第一階段開始就提出了一個這樣的對策大概分為下面這幾項包含訪視的沖洗、安心就業安心就業裡面當然就是我們過去所謂的雇用案例的一些措施或者是無薪假期間充電再出發這一類的東西另外兩項就是再就業跟今年我覺得相對來說可能不是這麼關鍵"},{"start":6479.611,"end":6495.649,"text":"不過基本上這些我們在這個傳統的勞動裡面大概都是一些我們現有的一些救出的工具那現在的這個狀況假設關稅的衝擊非常大那以我們現在勞動部手上的這些救出工具的一些手法"},{"start":6496.149,"end":6516.983,"text":"是不是足以應付可能衝擊非常多的產業而且衝擊的人數非常多的狀況之下也請勞動部要非常的審慎就像當初EGFA的一樣是不是要針對某些特定的產業或特定的勞工基本上要做出一些比較特殊的因應而不再侷限於現在勞動上的這些傳統的救出的工具"},{"start":6517.883,"end":6541.125,"text":"基本上我認為現在的衝擊我們還是必須要在各部會要積極做一些剛剛其實很多前面的委員都有提到過要做一些比較全面性的衝擊評論的報告我想進步的國家我們在學界也常常在協助政府機關在做這些事情包含有哪些產業到底受影響的勞工有哪些人數到底有多少"},{"start":6541.505,"end":6558.632,"text":"那這個呢其實這個上次在關稅第一階段的時候這個主任長有到立法院來報告做了一些報告那時候的這個人數大概是覺得製造業大概是有12.5萬那基本上產業的那個產值大概5%來算大概是這個九千多億九千六百多億"},{"start":6559.352,"end":6584.531,"text":"不過基本上我們在做一些內部的調查跟我訪查一些產業的狀況我們認為這個數值應該是偏低所以我們對於很多的現象上我剛剛說了事後要能夠從容不迫的應付有好的政策其實很好的衝擊評估報告是非常非常重要與其事後措手不及不如做一個很好的衝擊評估的報告"},{"start":6586.272,"end":6612.355,"text":"那這個大概很多產業聚落大概都會受到影響那我也建議跟地方政府要建立好的網絡的關係提出一些真的某些特定產業的一些特殊的方法那當然經濟部也提了很多剛才委員也提到可能要做一些到各地做一些貿易的中心或者是貿易投資中心或者是做一些台灣SELECT這樣的東西不過我覺得短期上可能都看不出立即的成效所以還是請"},{"start":6613.636,"end":6639.514,"text":"我們的政府部門要非常的小心最後我就用前幾天剛剛公佈的無薪假的數字來給大家做一個參考看我剛剛說的這個是不是危言聳聽還是這真的確有其次這一頁大家可以看到無薪假的狀況最近剛剛公佈的結果就是這個六個月是最高的而且人數還有上漲還有上漲了一些而且因為這次他調查有問大家是不是受到關稅的影響我們可以看到"},{"start":6640.094,"end":6665.233,"text":"受到關稅影響裡面有五十幾家啦那會有大概人數會一千四百多位那在這個時候其實大家就已經受到影響我想在產業界大家都看到其實不是怕最後的結果而是怕不確定我們大家現在非常陰險的判斷有一些確定的結果所以呢現在的評估跟現在的狀況從這個五星大的數字上我想提醒這個主管機關我們還是要密切的注意這個事情"},{"start":6665.993,"end":6670.456,"text":"我們所有的國內的產官學界都願意做所有談判代表的最好的後盾謝謝大家"},{"start":6690.542,"end":6718.513,"text":"謝謝主席我想也謝謝今天所參與的所有的專家學者在今天的公聽會之前其實我們是為了台美的相關關稅貿易協定所定的時程但是很遺憾的是我們的特別條例通過了接下來變特別預算了可是我們沒有人知道我們到底談到了什麼今天的公聽會雖然我們還是隔靴搔癢我們在這裡提出各界的意見但是我們的政府從"},{"start":6720.514,"end":6738.927,"text":"開始四月份有相關的貿易關稅問題的到現在其實在國會在立法院甚至在各界應該都沒有完整的資訊中華民國政府現在在跟美國政府的協議的內容進度進程外界沒有任何的資訊行政院說了說"},{"start":6740.228,"end":6760.841,"text":"一切都在進度上這句話有說跟沒有說一樣真正進行談判負責談判的人了解進度的人都非常的安靜彷彿這些談判的項目跟進度是什麼不可說的秘密這一次的台美關稅的協議在台灣民眾黨來看我們已經認為它符合所謂條約締結法裡面有關條約的相關規定"},{"start":6764.784,"end":6783.633,"text":"必須就談判的方針原則跟可能爭議的事項適時的要向立法院說明並向立法院委員會報告但是除了我們立法院主動要求各個單位來做相關的專案報告之外到目前為止沒有接到任何行政單位主動提供的任何報告資料"},{"start":6784.713,"end":6813.752,"text":"甚至行政院對外所做的說明也幾乎為零相較於台灣日本政府在日美談判關稅協議的談判上反而他設立了一夜市的網站而且他把所有的資訊對各產業的衝擊全部都放在網站上也就是說日本人民可以很清楚的知道日本現在面臨的狀況就台灣來說我們的中央政府雖然到地方開了很多的說明會"},{"start":6814.993,"end":6833.4,"text":"在本席跟他們要求農業部也好經濟部也好要求他們提供我們各產業他們所稱的相關的衝擊到今天為止給我的回答都是非常籠統說我們都有去都有看但是都不能告訴你今天的問題在於這是一個不可說的密密碼"},{"start":6834.557,"end":6854.236,"text":"我們認為說在現在經貿辦的所有的網站上面只看到經貿辦的新聞稿告訴我們都在進城裡我們同意行政院可以可能不要說太多因為必須要去做談判但是現在的狀況不是說多說少的問題而是他什麼都不說"},{"start":6855.197,"end":6870.346,"text":"所以現在看到的消息在美國方面川普是單方面的發文單方面的簽署行政命令並跟美國自己的關稅規定比較像是有具體協議的只是好像是川普第一個簽好的英國跟美國之間的協定"},{"start":6871.366,"end":6898.483,"text":"而這個協定在英國人來看比較像是有在既有的談判架構下面去談的也就是說用同樣的狀況來處理台灣跟美國之間關稅協定我們也有所謂的台美21世紀的貿易協定用這個框架來看的話不管是延續哪一個框架這些都應該按照相關的程序來向立法院做說明但是到目前為止一個影響我國如此重大的關稅協定"},{"start":6899.904,"end":6917.305,"text":"沒有經過國會的審查說到底它也不是行政單位對外代表台灣針對行政事務所簽的行政協定而已而是攸關台灣未來方向經貿發展的重要協定這個協定的內容我們認為在今天為止到8月1號之前"},{"start":6918.286,"end":6928.035,"text":"至少不能說的可以隱匿起來但是該給民眾包括很多學者說的對勞工的衝擊對產業的衝擊對製造商的衝擊對貿易商的有利這些都應該把它理清楚"},{"start":6934.46,"end":6958.251,"text":"而這個部分在中華民國目前是付之缺乳的所以不要呼籲行政院隨著川普將關稅生效的日期延到到8月1號所以現在還有17天的時間進去進行磋商正在民意代表機關的立場我們希望能夠做到所謂的監督跟成為行政單位的後盾也就是說也要告訴美國人"},{"start":6959.031,"end":6974.948,"text":"我們民意機關跟行政機關它不是由你們說了算而是中華民國政府還是一個主權獨立的國家所以行政院它可以裁量什麼需要保密什麼不能公開但是不能全部都不說所以我們認為說"},{"start":6976.249,"end":7001.411,"text":"福茂協定在台灣是一個黑箱的標的如果以現在的角度來看的話現在的台北協定是比福茂協定更黑箱的狀況我們認為國會跟民眾都有權利了解所有的程序我們也希望行政院能夠適時的揭露相關的資訊讓各個行業跟產業都能知道自己將會面對什麼樣的挑戰以上 謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊 黃委員"},{"start":7004.997,"end":7029.603,"text":"接著請中華經濟研究院所長 劉孟俊 劉所長好 主席 各位長官 各位嘉賓大家好 我是劉孟俊"},{"start":7039.567,"end":7066.018,"text":"今天這一張並不是來跟大家上數學課這一張的話只是告訴我們說我們是接受經濟部的委託來進行分析在怎麼樣的關稅底下的話就台灣出口面臨到美國怎麼樣的關稅的時候我們的在什麼樣的匯率的水準才不會那個出口廠商才不會有虧損"},{"start":7068.201,"end":7096.132,"text":"這邊的話我們分析起來大概有幾個條件第一個條件的話就是這個產業裡面的獲利率第二個的話這個產業裡面的話出口占它的營業的比重第三個的話就是它的在國內裡面的採購的成本占它所有的成本的比重那基本來講說我們可以得到一個結論是講說如果說我們面臨到美國的關稅水準越高事實上我們的匯率應該是有所貶值"},{"start":7097.455,"end":7118.827,"text":"但是這邊的話有幾個tricky的地方是在哪裡就是第一個就是想說是如果說我們的產業裡面的獲利率水準越高的時候事實上能夠吸收到關稅的一個衝擊越大那貶值的就不需要那麼大第二個的話就是如果說是我們的產業裡面非常具有特殊的一些競爭力"},{"start":7121.209,"end":7146.841,"text":"美國的一個進口商願意是跟我們的產業進行怎麼去去吸收這個關稅水準的時候那我們可以講說我們的匯率的水準就不需要貶值太多這換句話說這個是一個 bargaining power那在這邊這幾個另外一個的話就是以台幣所計算的一些成本裡面就是國內採購的一些成本如果說水準越高那換句話講"},{"start":7149.825,"end":7171.612,"text":"國內裡面的話就變成你要著會有匯損的影響的話就越大如果說經過這幾個計算裡面的話我們可以得出幾個結論怎麼去幫助我們的出口商來吸收到匯率高漲裡面的一些衝擊第一個我們可不可以建議可以思考一下如果是出口廠商的繳稅可不可以用美元來繳稅"},{"start":7173.673,"end":7193.009,"text":"這似乎來講這個應該是比較顛覆一些我們過去的一些思考因為我們是所謂的你出口也好你繳稅的話一定要是用台幣來繳稅但是如果說你允許在某種程度裡面可以讓出口廠商是用美元來繳稅的話或許也可以吸收第二個的話"},{"start":7194.571,"end":7223.949,"text":"我們那些廠商裡面有許多是外勞是不是他薪資的話在某種程度上可以允許來講是支付給他美元的一些薪水或許可以幫助我們這個出口廠商來面臨到這種窘境這是我們今天所面臨到一個面臨到美國的關稅的衝擊以及到我們那個面臨到同時台幣升值一些匯率的一些壓力裡面那我們大概計算裡面的話就10%到15%的一個美國關稅的一些壓力的時候"},{"start":7224.669,"end":7241.282,"text":"我們或許來講說我們的匯率水準可以保持在30%就1美元對30的時候可能還可以有所面臨到這種衝擊如果說美國的關稅對我們的15%到25%的話大概我們台幣應該要貶值到31%到35%"},{"start":7243.203,"end":7253.88,"text":"如果說美國是對我們的關稅是壓到25%以上的話我們應該是要貶值到35%等等這些是我們這個計算的一些結果這是給大家做一個參考"},{"start":7256.65,"end":7274.091,"text":"第二個我們認為關稅水準固然是一個衝擊從長期而言對於我們台灣最大的衝擊應該是講說是叫貿易的不確定性就是我們可以看到川普兩三天改變一些說法兩三天的政策調整"},{"start":7275.834,"end":7290.813,"text":"那這邊的話所以我們可能是研判我們現在所面臨的未來的一個經貿的環境是一個相當不確定的一個環境我們知道很多企業裡面我們有訪問到很多企業裡面不斷的在反映他說"},{"start":7292.354,"end":7316.626,"text":"關稅水準是一件事情如果說關稅的政策一直不確定的時候對他們的長期的投資的策略營運的策略是很難執行的那如果說我們從這個角度來去延伸下去其實我們的廠商或者是全世界裡面廠商所面臨的一個情況我們可能要是中小企業要面臨到是一個什麼樣將來所面臨的是一個全球經濟"},{"start":7318.027,"end":7329.286,"text":"走弱的一個環境這時候可能對於我們廠商的一個衝擊遠遠高過於對匯率乃至於對關稅這是我們必須要呼籲的一件事情"},{"start":7331.704,"end":7350.055,"text":"那我們再接著下來的話 我們來思考一個情況這時候我們的台商裡面可能會有短期因應關稅的一個衝擊跟長期一些作為那我們知道短期裡面的話 很多廠商採取一個策略叫做Tariff Engineering"},{"start":7350.955,"end":7374.443,"text":"他可能看到一些關稅裡面對產品的定義分類乃至於現在川普裡面對各個國家人採取不同的關稅水準可能就對我們廠商而言的話他可能就要去思考他如何的投資跟市場的佈局可以讓他降低對美國出口的一些壓力那當然說是對我們廠商"},{"start":7375.783,"end":7385.822,"text":"企業對我們政府而言的話可能有必要的是尤其我們中小企業的出口更關鍵的想說是一個現金流的一個穩定性所以"},{"start":7386.892,"end":7416.392,"text":"我們可以呼籲一下就是我們行政單位裡面可能是要協助我們廠商做一件事情就是去協助廠商去檢視一下他的現金流穩不穩定他的財務狀況可不可以面對到未來一些衝擊這樣可能是對於無論是廠商的一個競爭力乃至於對於勞工裡面的就業的穩定性這也幫助很大那至於長期佈局而言的話我們台灣現在已經走進去另外一個程度"},{"start":7417.032,"end":7429.987,"text":"或者是產業發展到另外一個新的一個事業就是我們的廠商或者我們的產業要進行深度的國際化過去來講是我們第一次的國際化可以講說很簡單是到"},{"start":7431.889,"end":7449.618,"text":"海峽的另外一端去中國大陸去進行投資這是我們的第一次的國際化在第一次國際化裡面培養出我們的廠商裡面的話是有規模做大的像鴻海像華碩等等這些或者是很多的ESG的一些代工廠"},{"start":7450.458,"end":7470.047,"text":"但是我們現在是新的一個國際化的話就是除了China plus one可能到先進國家的投資到發展中國家裡面的話所以說我們的供應鏈怎麼去重組讓我們的台商台灣裡面的話進行一個多角化的經營那變成我們的人才的是很重要"},{"start":7470.547,"end":7495.768,"text":"所以我們的這個國際化裡面的話有短期跟中期跟長期的一些作為這就變成一個重點那我們建議是講說我們應該是採取一個長期的一個視野跟戰略就是幫助我們的廠商幫助我們的產業人進行國際化我們設想一下日本裡面的一個日本商社它是怎麼去全球布局那我們將來台灣可能也面臨到同樣的一些共科"},{"start":7496.448,"end":7511.891,"text":"我們不可能只是仰賴台灣自己本身的一些人才我們的土地我們的天然資源其實這個有限但是我們也可能要經營到全球的市場的面要讓我們的廠商有個全球佈局的一些能量那我就簡單報告到這邊謝謝各位"},{"start":7522.723,"end":7525.784,"text":"謝謝主席黃珊珊委員各位在場的委員政府官員專家學者媒體朋友大家應該可以說午安了"},{"start":7551.238,"end":7578.662,"text":"我本來以為今天我們所面對的問題大概是我們要進入CPTPP談判的時候才會碰到的結果沒有想到可能提早了好幾年現在就爆發了過去大家沒有準備好該做沒有做的準備今天都造成這個問題的嚴重所以這是蠻感慨的"},{"start":7580.137,"end":7604.059,"text":"那不管怎麼樣既然問題發生了我們就應該要面對它那以我個人的專業來講是以今天討論的第二項怎麼樣來因應是比較相關的剛才有許多猜測就是我們未來會面對哪些產業的衝擊"},{"start":7606.849,"end":7616.916,"text":"會面對多高的稅率到底要不要降我們對美國的關稅到零等等不管怎麼樣一個相當大的衝擊是沒有辦法避免的目前的關稅率是10%看起來台灣是"},{"start":7629.48,"end":7656.52,"text":"套不掉要加個5% 10%甚至於半導體的萬稅率把你提得很高把台灣的半導體相關的產業逼到美國去投資這些不確定性的都存在那我不願意去猜測到底到最後會發生什麼狀況那我來提一下"},{"start":7658.662,"end":7676.998,"text":"這個短期的因應跟中長期的因應應該有什麼樣的考慮在短期方面我們最近有一個930億美元的因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案"},{"start":7678.717,"end":7693.369,"text":"那我認為這個規模是太小沒有辦法應付未來的需要我建議把它擴張到至少兩千億這樣的一個規模那你名稱可以把它擴大因應關稅衝擊產業發展基金那這個東西呢"},{"start":7700.766,"end":7725.596,"text":"大家可以回想當年我們要加入這個WTO的時候有一個農業發展基金設立了一個規模1000億的農業發展基金那是類似的一個模式但是我認為規模要把它擴大名稱稍微修改一下提供給我們必須要進行升級轉型開拓新市場"},{"start":7726.716,"end":7747.021,"text":"研究發展員工培訓這些企業所需要的這個貸款或是給他的補貼讓他們有辦法能夠繼續跟流台灣那這是第一項我建議的因應那再來在開拓新市場方面我認為有需要"},{"start":7748.649,"end":7776.211,"text":"去提出一個專門針對這個東西的方案比方說分散出口市場方案那這裡面會包括提供有需要的企業出口的協助這是可以是個別的企業給他一些協助然後我們要增加現有駐外經貿單位跟外貿協會據點的這個人力配置跟他的能量"},{"start":7777.716,"end":7792.584,"text":"目前已經很多但是看起來以後又不夠了所以有必要增加他們人員的配置跟他說能使用的資源跟這個有關的是我們應該要設置更多駐外經貿的據點"},{"start":7794.988,"end":7816.717,"text":"我記得剛才已經有委員提到像土耳其、印度這些新興的市場市場規模越來越大可能我們需要設立更多的據點來收集更多的資訊提供我們廠商更多出口的新聞讓他們去掌握這個出口的機會"},{"start":7819.4,"end":7844.89,"text":"好那另外呢我們可以補貼企業要參加一些國際這個貿易展覽商業展覽這樣的一個支出讓他們有能力呢參加更多的商業性的展覽來增加出口的機會那再來我建議在中長期的經貿策略調整有一些可以做的那基本上"},{"start":7846.238,"end":7873.806,"text":"還是要增加我們對市場的分散度這不只是短期的因應中長期來看它也是一個很重要的策略剛才劉所長他也提到像日本的商社其實不只是日本商社今天40年前我在泰國念書的時候我那個是英文的碩士班"},{"start":7874.844,"end":7893.951,"text":"那班上就有同學是日本商社派來念碩士班的你可以看看日本商社為了收集泰國當地的商情他下了多大的功夫他竟然會送人到這邊去念一個碩士班然後畢業之後就在當地住下來繼續幫他收集商情"},{"start":7894.81,"end":7923.746,"text":"那在台灣我猜測大概是沒有這樣的公司存在到現在我剛講是40年前所以如果企業要做到可長可久可大的話那收集商情是非常非常重要的一件事情但是很顯然我們台灣跟日本比起來有非常大的一個差距所以這個更加的分散市場不只是短期它也是中長期的一個策略那中長期另外就是要提高我們產品的獨佔性"},{"start":7925.803,"end":7939.341,"text":"那獨佔性如果越強的話就表示進口國更沒有辦法脫離對你這個產品的依賴度那如果這樣關稅提高的話你提高價格這個價格"},{"start":7942.645,"end":7970.381,"text":"這個關稅的負擔就會比較多的是由進口面進口方來承擔那我們這個出口方必須要承擔的就比較少甚至於你可以完全轉嫁給對方你完全不需要承擔這個關稅那這個溢價的過程當中就牽涉到你的這個產品的獨佔性看來時間過得很快我就比較快的來把我的想法介紹出來"},{"start":7972.577,"end":7987.52,"text":"再來分散供應鏈到低關稅的國家這也很重要剛剛已經提到印尼最近關稅就降到19%越南是20%菲律賓也是20%這三個國家看起來都是"},{"start":7995.184,"end":8018.326,"text":"這一波在東南亞關稅率被降得比較低的國家這些國家我們應該要略為重點輔導廠商如果在台灣沒有辦法升級轉型的話輔導他們到那邊去投資轉移降低他們的關稅負擔另外生產的成本也可以繼續下降特別是越南跟"},{"start":8019.983,"end":8027.513,"text":"菲律賓他們跟北京的政治關係是比較差的我們應該配合跟他們簽訂自由貿易協定來"},{"start":8030.857,"end":8058.014,"text":"來把這個生產鏈能夠完整有效充分的建立起來讓廠商能夠面對這樣的一個衝擊那我的資料呢這個前天就已經給主辦單位了大家手上如果有資料的話都有所以其他的東西就請大家自己去看一下那我再提一下就是農業農業可能這一波是很大的一個衝擊所以可能要仿效進入WTO的時候我們有這個農業發展方案"},{"start":8059.955,"end":8076.656,"text":"如果這個方案還有錢的話那現在應該要把它擴大可能要一兩千億讓農民能夠放心提供他們各種各樣的輔導我特別要提出來我們的農業試驗單位這些年來它的角色逐漸的弱化"},{"start":8077.236,"end":8094.234,"text":"他不管是人員的配置或是使用的經費呢都已經沒有辦法跟上實在的需要所以如果沒有辦法強化這些農業試驗單位的能量跟研發的能力的話呢那農業呢以後會越來越困難那以上呢那最後我再提一下這個"},{"start":8095.555,"end":8108.232,"text":"我們應該把產業轉型到服務業越來越重要能夠避免掉這種關稅的衝擊因為服務業是比較不必負擔關稅的但是我們服務業的貿易正式的統計到現在沒有"},{"start":8109.517,"end":8133.495,"text":"那中央銀行經濟部跟這個主計總署呢互推皮球幾十年到現在沒有解決我希望行政院能夠趕快折成某一個單位負責我們服務業貿易統計重視的統計讓我們知道哪些東西可以發展那他的基礎統計的基礎必須要有以上提供大家參考謝謝大家好謝謝杜教授"},{"start":8142.961,"end":8168.197,"text":"好的目前登記發言的專家學者都已經發言完畢那接下來我們請行政機關回應相關的意見依序請行政院秘書長國家安全會議還有行政院經貿辦談判辦公室國家發展委員會經濟部農業部衛生福利部財政部勞動部來做回應首先我們是不是先請行政院"},{"start":8173.163,"end":8178.959,"text":"是 李副院長請冒犯"},{"start":8180.949,"end":8204.59,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好那美國川普政府在2025年的4月2號公布了對等關稅後那總統也在4月6號發表談話那提出了五大的因應策略包括了展開對美談判產業支持計畫中長期的經濟發展計畫展開台灣加一也就是台灣加美國的新布局"},{"start":8205.511,"end":8220.873,"text":"開啟了產業傾聽之旅這些都是我們目前所做的原則方針那主任長的話也在4月11號應邀立法院就針對美國關稅政策的因應作為進行了專案報告"},{"start":8222.094,"end":8241.223,"text":"就美國對等關稅的措施對我國產業衝擊的影響評估政府協助產業的因應對策政府五大因應策略有進一步的說明那另外的話我們的行政院的副院長鄭麗君也率了經貿談判辦公室等等的部會"},{"start":8243.044,"end":8260.751,"text":"美方的話由美國的貿易代表署來主責那雙方的話也在5月1號、6月25號、7月8號在美國華府完成了三輪的實體諮商那我們在實體諮商以後的話都有發布新聞稿對外說明進度"},{"start":8262.171,"end":8291.421,"text":"那對等關稅談判的話呢它起因在美國盼望能改善它的逆差以及再工業化那美方呢依此提出的要求跟期待那我方的談判團隊的話呢那在總統的指示秉持著國家跟產業的利益維護國民健康糧食安全為核心的原則那針對台美關切的經貿還有合作議題我們協商溝通那期盼呢"},{"start":8291.961,"end":8313.801,"text":"透過談判全力爭取最佳的對等關稅稅率也將產業界所受的衝擊降到最低那在此同時的話行政院也提出了因應美國關稅我國出口供應鏈的支持方案以九大面向二十項措施來協助農工產業的加以因應"},{"start":8315.629,"end":8339.344,"text":"面對美國政府的對等關稅政策我們始終秉持著深化台美的經貿關係雙方互利互補的原則來進行談判也期盼在談判中尋求達到雙邊的貿易平衡增進台美在科技及國安等國原領域的合作那以上報告進行主席及各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":8344.889,"end":8346.531,"text":"第三位是行政院經貿辦副代表嚴惠欣"},{"start":8374.93,"end":8401.344,"text":"主席各位委員在場的各位先行大家好今天簡單跟各位說明一下我們現在由鄭麗君副院長所領導的台美經貿工作小組現在面對美國的關稅談判的一個最新的一些發展那我想美國為了要去處理長期的跟盟友之間的貿易逆差的問題所以提出了"},{"start":8402.14,"end":8430.729,"text":"這些對等關稅的議題所以原本在4月9號要開始起徵包括台灣在內比較高的對等關稅稅率的這些國家那這一個4月9號的時間現在仍然維持在暫緩實施那我們只實施10%的對等關稅那不過原本他提供了90天的談判期是到7月9號那不過就在7月"},{"start":8432.551,"end":8450.531,"text":"8號基本上時間要到期之前他在7月7號宣布讓這個各國可以有更長的時間維持到8月1號可以再持續跟美國進行談判所以在8月1號以前各國現在的所有的"},{"start":8451.613,"end":8463.227,"text":"暫行的對等關稅稅率仍然維持在10%即便現在已經有25個經濟體以上陸續收到美國通知他們預期會有"},{"start":8465.362,"end":8479.2,"text":"這個從所謂20%到50%不等的對等關稅的未來的稅率但是這些稅率也是在8月1號以後才會開始實施那目前我們觀察這個關稅信函"},{"start":8482.264,"end":8505.503,"text":"他基本上發出的一些可能的考量看起來處理的方式也不太有具有一致性或跟談判的進展看起來可能也沒有必然的關係主要的我們的觀察是因為到目前為止我們看到有一些國家看來似乎已經在公開的場合表示跟美國的談判有達到一定的進展"},{"start":8506.664,"end":8524.234,"text":"那譬如說柬埔寨政府在7月4號他宣布他跟美國的談判已經即將完成歐盟也提到他在跟美國也談到了原則性的協議但是他們還是收到了關稅的信函然後得到了一個新的稅率那可是像越南"},{"start":8525.234,"end":8551.219,"text":"美國宣布他跟他完成了談判但給他的一個20%的薪稅率可是越南卻反而沒有收到關稅信函所以簡單來講目前的觀察台灣目前為止還沒有收到關稅信函但是有沒有收到這個關稅信函目前看起來的解讀是美國政府是希望給各國更多的時間但是是希望可以加速"},{"start":8552.159,"end":8580.203,"text":"各國跟美國進行談判的誘因跟動力所以就台灣而言我們現在即便還沒收到關稅信函但就台灣的談判立場我們就是持續的在8月1號以前會努力的跟美國進行積極的協商那我們的目的就是希望在8月1號可以跟美國取得一個對台灣產業對國家利益最佳的"},{"start":8581.264,"end":8607.2,"text":"對等關稅稅率而這個對等關稅稅率我們也希望可以爭取到跟我們的日韓競爭對手更好的待遇這個就是我們現在談判團隊希望努力去這個衝刺的一個最重要的目標那我在這邊也要說明的就是8月1號這個時間點是美國設定給全球的期限"},{"start":8608.26,"end":8636.107,"text":"並不是給台灣的期限所以應該是跟國內的其他的事件是沒有關聯性的那此外呢就我們的談判團隊來說我相信因為美國提出對等關稅這個談判目的是要解決貿易逆差他要去檢視他覺得長期以來對美國不公平的關稅結構所以自然而然他當然會對台灣提出很多他認為有助於促進他的市場"},{"start":8636.86,"end":8664.405,"text":"的商機可以增加他的出口成長的任何的議題但是對台灣來說我們會持續去堅守這些所謂產業跟國家的利益我們也會去捍衛我們的國民健康跟糧食安全但是我沒有我們的國際標準國際義務需要同時要兼顧所以這個是我們在談判過程當中一定會去尋求貿易跟產業之間的平衡性那"},{"start":8665.595,"end":8692.754,"text":"我也要再次強調這不是一個典型的經貿談判通常經貿談判當然一定是要耗時至少兩三年以上可是這一次的談判是美國基於他的對等關稅他想要去快速的解決他長期的貿易逆差的問題而提出來的談判那台灣在因應這樣子的一個談判需求上面不是只有台灣各國同樣都面對了這種"},{"start":8694.192,"end":8706.397,"text":"不確定的談判挑戰不確定性很高不可預設性很高的談判挑戰那所以我們在這個過程當中行政院以及各部會我們都盡可能的"},{"start":8708.072,"end":8729.165,"text":"在立法院的要求之下來提出報告委員會報告書面說明以及可能還有包括親赴各委員會去進行一些討論那未來我們一定會在有具體共識的情況之下然後符合國際談判的慣例也在這個符合"},{"start":8729.665,"end":8749.941,"text":"大家的共同的這個共識之下來跟國人以及立法院來做事實的報告那我想今天各位寶貴的意見我們都會完整的記錄一定會回報未來一定會事實的來跟各位加以說明那再次的感謝產官學各界"},{"start":8750.894,"end":8766.846,"text":"還有包括我們立院的各位委員給予我們政府最佳的後盾那我想政府會持續積極的談判 謝謝好 謝謝副代表接下來我們請國發會高仙貴副主委"},{"start":8786.048,"end":8814.827,"text":"首先我還是要感謝各位委員還有學者專家還有產業代表的一些建議那國防會以下就緊究因為美國的對等關稅政府的中長期的戰略的調整進行說明我想就如剛剛學者專家所說的的確川普的關稅事實上已經引發了全球經貿局勢的改變包括了全球將會進行第二次的供應鏈的重組"},{"start":8816.028,"end":8836.453,"text":"第二個就是美中對峙可能會導致中國內卷的負面效應的擴大還有包括總體經濟的不確定性也會升高那我想在過去其實政府已經針對經貿政策的調整的這個方向我們擬定了三個大的面向"},{"start":8837.313,"end":8865.804,"text":"第一個我們希望推動產業的創新轉型就像剛剛有學者講到的我們希望打造台灣產品的獨特性不可替代性我們希望由價格競爭來取代所謂的成本的競賽所以我們即將國發會還有相關部會即將推動AI的新十大的建設我們希望從智慧運用關鍵技術還有數位基礎三個面向來推動希望可以鞏固"},{"start":8866.823,"end":8887.822,"text":"台灣在半導體跟AI既有的競爭優勢維持競爭優勢的不變其中非常重要的一部分我們希望推展AI的智慧應用也就是我們希望將來可以把AI的相關技術導入到百工百業尤其是傳產跟中小企業"},{"start":8888.763,"end":8906.275,"text":"然後我們希望可以配合經濟部的中小微企業的多元振興方案然後我們整體的從結構面來提升我們中小企業跟傳產的競爭力那第二個其實我們希望可以強化國內的內需動人來因應國際環境的不確定的升高"},{"start":8911.599,"end":8921.464,"text":"我們包括第一個我們希望我們可以打造這個六大區域產業跟生活圈然後配合我們要推動152項的重要的建設我們打造宜居宜業的產業環境我們希望這個面向可以提升台灣的投資動能"},{"start":8931.149,"end":8950.516,"text":"第二個呢剛才其實學者專家也有提到我們怎麼樣去提升國內以內需型的高附加價值的服務業那我想那個院長已經宣示了我們會有新的觀光的方案我們希望可以提振觀光產業那目前儘管會在推動的亞洲資產公司"},{"start":8951.536,"end":8965.7,"text":"管理中心事實上也希望打造台灣有一個高值的服務業同時呢我們也會針對婚育穩居育兒津貼等等的提供一個青年院生燃養的健康老化的環境"},{"start":8967.661,"end":8981.217,"text":"進一步來刺激國內的消費的動人那第三個我們希望開展多元的佈局也就是協助台灣的企業會進行供應鏈的重新佈局跟重組"},{"start":8982.398,"end":9006.188,"text":"其實大家當中有講到一件事情就是說怎麼樣維持國內供應業的自主性跟經濟自主所以我們希望企業在進行供應業重組的時候可以優先考慮投資台灣也就是回到台灣所以我們目前已經通過了投資台灣的三大方案的2.0提供更優質的服務給願意回到台灣的企業"},{"start":9007.208,"end":9026.187,"text":"第二個,我們在協助全球產業布局裡面,我想非常重要的,剛剛其實委員也有提到,我們將來就會希望我們透過經濟部的在目標市場的台灣貿易投資中心,還有一些海外產業聚落的這些"},{"start":9029.33,"end":9055.977,"text":"呃成立我們提供所有要到海外佈局的企業呢客製化的服務輔導他在當地可以落地那同時大家其實也有提到我們到底希望投資哪些目標市場哪些目標產業我想我們國家會在整體的戰略佈局裡面鎖定我們要打造的飛鴻功利念到底我們應該在哪一些國家佈局哪一些我們將來台灣必須要"},{"start":9058.62,"end":9061.528,"text":"推動的關鍵性產業那我們在後面的"},{"start":9063.19,"end":9091.747,"text":"規劃的過程我們會等關稅確定以後我們會做一些更仔細的研擬那最後呢我想再次謝謝舉辦這次的公聽會然後各位學者的建言那我想國發會不會持續關注相關國際經貿情勢的變化然後針對政府要提升的提出的中長期的經濟調整戰略我們也會持續吸收而且那個"},{"start":9093.048,"end":9094.05,"text":"接受各方的建議"},{"start":9116.132,"end":9124.902,"text":"主席 各單位代表承蒙貴委員會邀請參加今天的公聽會經濟部緊就因應關稅衝擊的產業對策還有經貿戰略的調整來做說明自從川普宣布對等關稅以來從總統院長"},{"start":9136.815,"end":9161.203,"text":"都有到下鄉到各地去了解可能會受影響的產業他們的心聲經濟部也密集的跟相關的產業代表們進行了多場次的座談終結這些業者的需求他們最主要最關心的就是希望政府能優先的給予金融資源還有擴大出口拓銷等需求"},{"start":9162.864,"end":9184.944,"text":"在應對的部分就短期的方面來說我們最主要的有採取三項的措施第一個是出口供應鏈的支持行政院提出的特別條例當中經濟部會投入460億元提供我們廠商相關的金融資源尤其是對中小微企業周轉性支出或者購買"},{"start":9186.085,"end":9195.352,"text":"機器設備貸款的利息補貼我們也協助業者拓展海外的市場在海外設立發貨倉庫或者展示中心"},{"start":9196.806,"end":9215.764,"text":"另外也将支持企业投入研发转型以及设备太旧换新等措施第二个是持续的来帮助我们业者争取海外的订单今年四月份我们特别针对可能比较会受冲击的产业包括机械金属"},{"start":9216.641,"end":9238.437,"text":"水五金手工具還有扣件人產業聚落辦理了全球搶單的大會總共有48國454位的國際的買主來台跟我們的業者進行媒合的洽商有了這樣子的經驗之後我們也規劃在今年的下半年也會再次的辦理"},{"start":9239.317,"end":9258.167,"text":"同樣的這個搶單大會來精準煤和潛在的買主第三個是海外布局的服務經濟部也非常的關心海外台商受美國關稅影響的情形已經設置了專線專網的窗口提供可能受影響產業的還有業者的諮詢"},{"start":9262.316,"end":9289.443,"text":"至於對有益到海外布局的台商例如他可能會想去美國設廠或移轉到東南亞或印度我們也會提供目標市場的相關的資訊還有我們的建議來幫助他們尋找合作夥伴等至於在中長期的調整我們最主要的目標是要協助產業升級跟深化經貿布局"},{"start":9291.819,"end":9298.108,"text":"賴總統也有特別強調台灣的經濟體質要堅固出口導向以及擴大內需所以呢我們經濟部也會"},{"start":9300.339,"end":9329.719,"text":"配合推動落實總統立足台灣佈局全球加強美國行銷權世界的目標在立足台灣部分我們政府會幫助業者投入高質化的產品開發推動低碳化智慧化的轉型那我們也非常的歡迎國際的大廠到台灣加碼投資經濟部會持續改善經貿的投資環境延續投資台灣三大方案來幫助台商跟外商在擴大在台投資"},{"start":9330.739,"end":9351.493,"text":"在布局全球經濟部會持續帶領我們的業者開拓全球市場並且聚焦中東歐日本美國菲律賓等貿易夥伴例如我們已經在捷克跟日本設立了台灣貿易投資中心也會規劃今年下半年在美國設立提供台商一戰式的投資服務"},{"start":9353.59,"end":9370.416,"text":"此外,台美产业高度互补,尤其是在科技的领域合作密切。近两年,美国已经成为台湾最大的投资对象,我们的厂商主要是着眼于接近客户市场商机,成为美国供应链重要的伙伴。"},{"start":9371.076,"end":9387.95,"text":"随着国际局势跟供应链的调整,经济部会帮助有意去美国市场开发的这些企业能尽速的落地,同时政府会持续积极推动跟美国洽签避免双重科税协定,创造有利企业的投资环境。"},{"start":9389.298,"end":9405.589,"text":"在行銷全世界部分經濟部會運用既有的交流管道強化與美日歐產業合作深化夥伴關係我們也會幫助業者持續掌握東協印度等市場商機來打造台灣"},{"start":9406.468,"end":9435.163,"text":"具有高品質安全健康永續形象的台灣產品經濟部將持續的關注美國關稅的政策還有國際經貿形勢的發展同時我們也非常感謝今天出席的各位委員各位專家還有企業代表所提供的建議我們會聆聽各行各業所需面臨的這個需求及挑戰也讓我們政府的應對的對策能夠貼合業者的需求以上報告 敬您指教"},{"start":9439.366,"end":9444.688,"text":"主席還有今天的各位學者專家為因應美國對等關稅對台灣的衝擊農業部秉持深化台美經貿關係雙方互利互惠以及"},{"start":9467.515,"end":9472.705,"text":"維護產業競爭力、穩定永續發展、確保農民權利等原則推動台灣農業施政及對外協商"},{"start":9475.728,"end":9491.233,"text":"同時農業部鑒於農漁業發展與國家糧食安全息息相關堅持適當關稅以確保我國糧食安全絕不會完全仰賴進口對於產業照顧也將以農漁民為優先與美方進行協商為因應美國關稅及國際經貿情勢的變化農業部已經提出"},{"start":9502.377,"end":9517.388,"text":"農業三大面向六大措施全力讓國家經濟穩定產業發展穩定及國人生活安心我們預計投入180億涵蓋生產儲運及產銷至外銷層面資金協助與生產場域補助及外銷獎勵"},{"start":9524.963,"end":9547.171,"text":"那當中農業三大面向六大措施最主要的第一我們要強化農業的金融支持農業貸款利率加碼補貼第二提升農產業競爭力包括強化外銷能源體系透過我們農業試驗改良場所還有行政機構加強產業價值轉型協助取得國內外"},{"start":9552.248,"end":9568.654,"text":"標章及認證那第三協助開拓多元市場擴大國內外行銷擴大海外行銷那最後要跟各位先進報告其實從為了要因應美國"},{"start":9571.384,"end":9586.794,"text":"關稅所以農業部從今年的四月初以來我們陸續到各個主要的產地跟相關產業的農民還有農民團體以及農企業舉行了非常多場的這個座談會同時我們也設了0800的專線來協助農漁民或者是相關的業者諮詢了解"},{"start":9595.353,"end":9612.724,"text":"對應美國可能實施關稅的相關的影響我們主要的目的就是要確保農漁民的權利以上報告謝謝次長接下來請衛福部食品藥物管理署的林金富副署長"},{"start":9623.064,"end":9630.728,"text":"主席 各位委員 專家 縣進 大家好今天大院第11屆第三會期財政委員會召開"},{"start":9632.413,"end":9651.29,"text":"今天的公聽會 衛部在此特別感謝衛部針對提供三 兼顧食安與農業利益之衝擊及政府應用措施政府將如何同步保障本土農業與消費者權益避免遭受美方高額報復性關稅 說明如下"},{"start":9654.028,"end":9667.197,"text":"在面對各項食品安全議題時本部秉持國家至上食品優先為前提始終以民眾健康為核心科學分析為基礎風險評估為依據作為決策之基本原則"},{"start":9672.162,"end":9689.16,"text":"本於審慎與專業的態度延期國際規範與科學證據在確保食品安全無虞的前提下訂定安全且合理的管理措施以維護國家整體利益與全民的健康福祉"},{"start":9691.089,"end":9715.743,"text":"我國身為世界貿易組織 的會員國在食品安全管理的政策與訂定執行一直遵循以科學實證與風險評估為基礎確保從產地到餐桌的每一環節皆符合規範致力為民眾建構實在安心、實在放心的環境"},{"start":9717.045,"end":9723.41,"text":"再一次感謝各位委員專家先進的寶貴意見衛福部會繼續努力以上報告謝謝好接下來請財政部莊瑞雲部長主席各位委員各位女士先生大家好"},{"start":9747.458,"end":9763.085,"text":"現在緊究本部涉及到台美對等關稅協商重要議題的幾個重點跟各位做一個報告首先就是在這一次的談判當中針對美國非常重視的就是防堵違規轉運這個議題那對於這個議題我們海關採取了事前嚴防"},{"start":9768.347,"end":9774.229,"text":"市中嚴查以及事後嚴處的三嚴措施所謂的事前嚴防就是配合經濟部公告從今年的5月開始到必須要輸美產品必須要附原產地的聲明書那麼這個部分從5月7號到7月6號總共已經我們也查核了這方面的聲明書超過了17萬"},{"start":9792.735,"end":9799.262,"text":"9000件那麼業者的配合情形也良好在市中嚴查的部分我們是用系統來篩選高風險輸美貨物並且給警示那麼海關同仁就會嚴格查核貨物的產地還有標示"},{"start":9807.351,"end":9818.756,"text":"並且把查核的結果納入風險分析那在事後延處的部分我們在今年的4月到今年的7月13號已經查核了蘇美貨物9500多筆那麼也有移送經濟部國貿署依照國貿易法來採取的案件也達到106案"},{"start":9827.959,"end":9846.82,"text":"第二個部分我們會持續深化和美國貿易的便捷化的合作來維護貿易的一個次序台美雙方持續會推動擴大電子化的通關還有預先審核機制來簡化貨品進出口的程序和通關的作業並且會深化交流反傾銷稅還有平衡稅的調查資訊"},{"start":9850.203,"end":9877.908,"text":"來提升我國的產業經營環境以及供應鏈的韌性維護首髮廠商以及國家的產業利益那第二個部分要報告的時候我們本部相關的財政支持措施以及其他的一個相關措施首先在金融支持方面為了減輕廠商的資金成本那麼本部在今年的4月21號已經發布了強化出口廠商金融支持的措施執行要點由我們"},{"start":9878.818,"end":9895.383,"text":"輸出物銀行來提供相關的減免措施包含了貿易融資利息的減收還有輸出保險費用的減免那麼我們輸出物銀行已經和27家的金融機構完成了簽約同時在今年的6月也建置了利息減碼平台"},{"start":9896.863,"end":9911.469,"text":"等到公告施行以後就會全面的開放使用同時在4月到6月之間也辦理了多場的廠商還有金融機構的說明會那對於中小企業所諮詢的相關問題也逐一回覆那麼也達到了959件"},{"start":9913.19,"end":9933.859,"text":"那么在公股银行的协助部分呢本部会持续的督导我们公股银行依照金管会来办理对企业融资宽款措施那么对于符合条件就会提供环角本席或展延借款年期的协助并且会持续的推动中小及微型企业的振兴融资方案"},{"start":9935.06,"end":9955.459,"text":"來減輕企業在資金方面的壓力第三個部分我們也提供租稅協助方面第一個會根據的提供租稅優惠來支持我國出口供應鏈的產業那在今年5月7號也修正公布通過產創條例的部分條文其中第10條之一的智慧機械的投資抵減施行期間延長到118年底"},{"start":9959.483,"end":9979.825,"text":"同时还扩大了试用范围,新增了人工智慧以及智能检探的项目,也提高了支出的上限从10亿元提高到20亿元。另外对于有关新创产业的试用条件的部分,也同时在23条之一及23条之二做了相关的修正,来鼓励资金可以益助新创的事业。"},{"start":9981.294,"end":9985.397,"text":"那第二個部分我們還提供了相關的協助措施來減輕企業和民眾的負擔那麼大家都知道今年的所得稅的結算申報呢延長了一個月那可以有效減輕企業和民眾在申報方面的壓力那另外也受理了民眾收到那個關稅"},{"start":9999.506,"end":10009.711,"text":"政策影響可以申請稅付稅的申請嚴分期繳納的一個稅券那目前也核准了有6800多件那應納稅額也達到288億那對於營業人因為美國關稅的影響而我們採取的相關的一些可以退還營業稅亦付稅額就不需要有"},{"start":10023.593,"end":10028.956,"text":"逐步由國稅局報本部核准就由國稅局就可以辦理了那目前來說也已經核准了有72家退稅金額也達到1790萬元那另外本部也在我們本部的網站也設置了"},{"start":10039.942,"end":10054.249,"text":"專區來提供專人的諮詢服務讓企業跟民眾都可以及時的獲得的協助再降低業者行政成本部分從今年4月取科學園區的1224家的保稅業者可以按月匯報通關案件免付裝箱單那麼海關是透過保稅智慧服務平台"},{"start":10062.793,"end":10085.204,"text":"來擴大對保稅業者實施遠端集合這樣可以減輕業者的一個成本那最後呢本部將會持續關注美國關稅政策最新的發展就各個產業主管機關所評估產業所受的影響提供相關的資源以及協助那對於今天公聽會呢各位先進所提相關的意見我們都會納入參考以上的說明進行指教謝謝"},{"start":10089.662,"end":10093.603,"text":"好,谢谢部长。接下去是劳动部的黄珍娜次长。"},{"start":10103.961,"end":10126.98,"text":"主席 各位與會的女士先生 大家午安首先感謝貴委員會跟今天與會的學者專家產業代表跟工會夥伴就今天舉行了台美政府對等關稅協商我國政府的因應對策公聽會提供了許多寶貴的意見跟諸多的提醒"},{"start":10127.66,"end":10146.491,"text":"那我現在就就勞動部因應美方實施對等關稅的影響推動勞工保護機制來降低裁員與減薪風險確保就業穩定事項二要說明今天的說明有兩個重點一個是掌握勞動市場變動的情形主動訪視事業單位跟工會"},{"start":10150.553,"end":10167.645,"text":"第二個部分報告的是因應美國對等關稅發展勞動部已經採行的相關措施穩定就業勞動部在美國即將宣布對等關稅措施之前我們就建立了受美國關稅影響事業單位的監測通報機制定期的會診"},{"start":10173.108,"end":10195.133,"text":"地方政府通報受到美國關稅影響而實施減班休息的事業單位名單以及僱主團體通報的名單並且針對受影響的事業單位由勞動部勞動力發展署的五個分署主動進行關懷訪視跟提供相關的協助措施同時也持續訪視相關的工會掌握勞動市場變動的情形及時的給予協助"},{"start":10202.396,"end":10221.096,"text":"為了避免僱主資遣勞工嚴重影響勞工的勞動權益僱主在實施減班減少工時的權益措施的時候應該要參考勞動部首發布的因應景氣影響勞僱雙方協商減少工時應行注意事項"},{"start":10222.037,"end":10246.467,"text":"以及勞僱雙方協商減少工時協議書我們有提供範例來跟勞工簽訂書面協議並且通報他所在地的勞工行政主管機關以及勞動部的勞動力發展署各所署的分署勞動部也都持續密切來監測減班休息的數據並請各地方政府的審慎把關積極掌握各縣市勞工產業勞工的狀況做最後的因應"},{"start":10252.049,"end":10267.719,"text":"那勞動部除了透過勞動力發展署各所署分署主動訪視關懷廠商那我們從114年就今年的4月9號到7月10號為止五個分署總共訪視合計11157加次訪視的方式包括了電訪跟實地的走訪"},{"start":10275.363,"end":10302.182,"text":"那美國政府發布實施對等關稅措施之後勞動部就展開了工會的訪視也已經跟台中、桃園、彰化、新北、雲林、新竹縣這些縣市的產業總工會跟他的會員工會來座談聆聽勞工的心聲以及相關的建議並且與工會建立了直接聯繫的溝通管道掌握到受衝擊的企業經營的現況"},{"start":10304.924,"end":10313.771,"text":"第二部分我們所採行的穩定就業措施為了降低勞工解雇風險對潛在受衝擊勞工提供薪資補貼鼓勵事業單位辦訓讓勞工能夠穩定就業勞動部已經啟動支持受影響企業規劃辦理訓練以及支持減班休息勞工再充電的計畫"},{"start":10328.684,"end":10350.503,"text":"其他支持勞工安定就業的計畫我們也將視勞動情勢的發展逐步來推動以全力協助勞工就業在支持受影響企業規劃辦理訓練的部分我們協助企業提升勞工員工的職能以維持企業的競爭力提供他企業內部或者是聯合辦訓最高補助到200萬元"},{"start":10354.587,"end":10367.502,"text":"今年度受理申請的時限也延長到9月30號我們也鼓勵投保就業保險的民營失業單位跟非營利法人或團體積極的投入職能的升級"},{"start":10368.943,"end":10391.11,"text":"第二部分我們支持減班休息勞工再充電計劃我們專案協助在職勞工跟受僱事業單位因應美國對等關稅導致的減班休息勞工利用減班休息這個時段來參加訓練課程可以在減班休息前後的薪資差額內依照他實際參訓的時數申請訓練津貼"},{"start":10395.071,"end":10417.358,"text":"每個月最高可以補助到17,210元那麼為了確保薪資差額較小的甚至到沒有什麼差額的勞工也能夠順利參訓我們特別也針對減班休息前月頭保薪資在30,300元以下的全職勞工同樣可以依照實際參訓的時數申請訓練津貼"},{"start":10420.839,"end":10422.523,"text":"每個月最高補助2280元那麼補助事業單位辦訓的費用也加碼提高到350萬元"},{"start":10431.475,"end":10454.424,"text":"為了降低裁員跟減薪的風險確保就業的穩定勞動部除了掌握事業單位的人力變動情形跟服務需求之外我們並主動聯繫關心受影響的企業工會聆聽受影響情形並收集相關的建議未來也將持續密切的監測掌握各縣市產業勞工的狀況"},{"start":10456.986,"end":10466.737,"text":"同時我們要視美國關稅實際狀況,據時調整因應及滾動修正這些措施,來保障勞工的穩定就業。"},{"start":10476.667,"end":10486.673,"text":"我想今天依照立法院職權刑事法第58條的規定委員會應該在公聽會終結後10日內依照出席者所提供的正反意見"},{"start":10487.509,"end":10505.416,"text":"提出公聽會的報告送交本院的全體委員及出席者所以我們今天會把所有與會者所寶貴的發言意見作為未來修法的參考並會編成冊送交本院全體委員以及今日初列席提供建言的貴賓參閱"},{"start":10507.077,"end":10520.502,"text":"如果各位貴賓還有其他書面意見或相關的資料也請盡速的提供給我們將併入本次的公聽會報告再次感謝各位學者專家以及政府機關代表的出席謝謝大家我們今天散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"163184","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857575309b93d53385684a924df5ef2610eee40b7cd066593822a5b4fb6e55fc44f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:26:50 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劉委員"},{"start":10.182,"end":23.845,"text":"謝謝主席今天首先非常感謝有來自學界還有汽車同業工會還有工會代表跟農民學者有八位的來賓來參加這次的公聽會讓我們來聽到基層的聲音杜振華教授在這裡還有王安祥的教授在這裡我們現在最重要來談論這個議題就是台灣是美國第七大的貿易夥伴"},{"start":38.809,"end":54.808,"text":"那在過去的這時間到現在為止呢包括我們的競爭對手日本韓國還有歐盟美國都已經說出了對他們的一個談判的關稅是多少但是到現在我們還是沒有得到"},{"start":56.15,"end":63.077,"text":"關稅到底是多少的這個答案那我們就在懷疑是不是在談判之前台積電已經送出去了還包括在談判期間當中傳出來了天然氣還有波音飛機能源的這些部分還有國防武器在這個"},{"start":73.827,"end":83.781,"text":"條件都送出去之後呢還有沒有談成的那這樣子是不是有可能會犧牲到我們台灣的人民跟產業的利益呢因此我們民眾黨主張必須以資訊公開立法監督"},{"start":89.708,"end":95.732,"text":"產業保護及積極協商四個原則來尋求行政部門他必須來提升談判的一個透明度來落實國會監督來正視社會多元利益來主動回應產業界跟民眾的一個焦慮這主要是基於過去在2013年的時候福茂強犯協議的這樣的一個警醒"},{"start":114.69,"end":120.891,"text":"若不是這樣的情況之下呢到時候會發生到台灣內部的共識跟經濟安全的基本條件被維護這樣的問題那談判若沒有辦法兼顧到公開審議配套跟產業的合作的情況之下呢這就會加劇到社會的這種對立因此政策的多名產業補償跟全民參與是非常必要的"},{"start":139.955,"end":144.939,"text":"那我現在再繼續根據在現在各個部會他們的報告當中的一些問題我提出來我的一個看法第一個在關於經濟部分經濟部分它部分裡面有談到說布局全球要開拓的這個全球的市場"},{"start":157.668,"end":176.373,"text":"但是經濟部這邊只重視到東歐、日本、美國、菲律賓等貿易夥伴並沒有考慮到說針對人口最多的印度還包括在土耳其在回教市場的一個開拓尤其是說還要在美國去設立投資的一個貿易中心這是非常令人奇怪的這樣的一個說法"},{"start":178.214,"end":183.48,"text":"但另外我們也關注到是一直在強調對美國的這個避免雙重關稅的協定課稅的這個問題是很重要的有沒有列入到現在跟美國的談判的議題當中呢那如果已經納入到目前的談判的結果是怎麼樣是證明其實是很關切的"},{"start":196.835,"end":198.658,"text":"另外一個針對財政部財政部他對於洗產地的防範有提到但是他缺乏了確實揭露洗產地的查緝數據還有查核流程跟MIT"},{"start":212.176,"end":216.34,"text":"標章檢證的成效這部分也要說明第二部分我們看到是在鋼鐵汽車反傾銷跟平衡稅的重大項目上面財政部大力報告美方的關切清單但是並沒有看到明確的產業方向的支持跟影響的財政分析報告"},{"start":232.916,"end":235.177,"text":"所以財政部應該把過去兩年產業受到台美貿易的措施的具體的損失跟未來潛在的影響要做一個報告出來第三個針對農業部農業部它直指美國的貿易產品我們進口到美國產品是22.3%那出口是17.6%"},{"start":254.065,"end":273.572,"text":"那對於對美方們可能要加劇徵收的這個產業農業項目呢是不是應該要公開或分類它的成效評估跟預警的這個報表讓社會知道到底哪些的產業是最脆弱的哪些是最急迫要去處理的這樣子才是有幫助的"},{"start":274.272,"end":293.814,"text":"另外我們看到是民眾都在擔憂這些部分就是說對於現行談判他並沒有能夠及時回應到貿易順差從產品標示汽車關稅的這些美方注意的焦點是重要的敏感的議題長期懸而不決加重了產業的負擔這部分要去進行的"},{"start":294.375,"end":311.864,"text":"最後我們要看到的是民眾黨再次強調的是要重視的是產資訊公開立法的監督要落實還有產業保護跟積極的做協商這樣才能夠確保我們的利益能夠繼續被保持住好 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杜教授吳志奎 吳副秘書長劉盛明 劉副理事長溫忠義 秘書長王安祥 王教授蔡明芳 教授還有"},{"start":75.689,"end":89.443,"text":"劉孟俊、劉所長跟嘉欣我們最強的菜農農民代表我們期待今天有這麼多官員來好好傾聽把重點記下來特別是趕快溝通"},{"start":91.305,"end":116.394,"text":"趕快說明趕快溝通 趕快說明因為時間已經到了談判那麼多次 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國外媒體都報導了台灣人不知道這可不可以消耗嗎這樣怎麼對得起我們台灣民眾呢這天還傳出來主權基金有沒有被要求到底要做哪些的投資"},{"start":335.853,"end":359.039,"text":"請盡快跟全民講清楚好 今天最主要是請聽寫者專家的這個聲音我要誠懇 誠懇也是做一個非常嚴正的要求馬上就要拍板定案了請所有官員只要是知道你的產業北你主管的機關裡面有受到影響的請盡快說明 盡快溝通不要再黑箱下去 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱 張委員"},{"start":366.294,"end":369.503,"text":"接著請車輛工業同業工會副秘書長"}]}},{"id":"163179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857826637937da23b5684a924df5ef2610e5af1ef4f9e86959b42429a604935b5345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:42:54 - 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你們有沒有被告知資訊你們有沒有覺得有參與"},{"start":245.259,"end":267.487,"text":"受到衝擊的產業有被告知資訊嗎?有參與嗎?接下來可能會面臨重大負面影響的勞工有參與嗎?有被告知資訊嗎?還是大家串在地上等老實說啦正式最後的結果出來以前此時此刻的台灣早就受到傷害了過去兩三個月我們從北部到南部"},{"start":274.056,"end":295.68,"text":"密集拜訪了非常多的廠商跟勞工大家怕得要死但沒有人敢出來講為什麼沒有人敢出來講現在的政府肅殺氣氛很重啊怕被查水表啊誰敢出來講啊我現在出來講那接下來立法院通過好不容易要去補助產業補助勞工的會不會因此拿不到會不會被關切"},{"start":301.46,"end":323.526,"text":"什麼時候台灣的一個民主社會面對這麼重大的經貿議題啊靜若寒蟬我最後啊只想要補充一件事情或許有人說當年是在跟中國談判啊中國是我們的敵國跟美國談判美國是我們最好的朋友態度應該不一樣我提醒一下民進黨當初我們要改的"},{"start":330.222,"end":359.617,"text":"除了兩岸協議監督條例以外還有條約締結法這個是民進黨當初提出的條約締結法修正草案他們提的修正草案他們的條約締結法說要建立標準化與透明化的條約締結程序要明定國會在締約前後的參與以及監督具體的條文我不唸了在立法院公報都有現在資訊非常發達大家都google的到"},{"start":361.165,"end":376.966,"text":"剛剛有在討論說如果涉及法律的修正那國會要怎麼處理這件事情很簡單我為什麼會說這件事情很簡單十一年前就討論過了締結計畫的提出與成行第一個階段"},{"start":378.308,"end":403.208,"text":"依照締結計畫進行協商第二個階段完成協商後正式簽署前第三個階段國會審查第四個階段簽署後的監督第五個階段這是當初多少學者專家大家共同智慧的接近在一個當代的民主國家當中牽涉到這麼重大的經貿談判"},{"start":405.171,"end":430.517,"text":"在國內的民主程序應該要如何進行產業勞工要如何參與國會要如何監督法律修正要如何配合只不過很遺憾當初參與提出這些意見的學者專家現在全部都到民進黨去當官全部都到民進黨去當官當了官的這些人完全忘了當初"},{"start":431.687,"end":458.267,"text":"的主張對台灣民眾黨而言我們願意全力做我們政府的後盾但是請民進黨不要忘了當初的承諾不要把國會當橡膠把台灣的民主當空氣接下來我們會用盡所有的力量跟我們的產業跟我們的勞工跟我們台灣的農漁民站在一起追求台灣最高的國家利益謝謝"},{"start":460.046,"end":460.286,"text":"好 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以及各位先進我補充一下 剛才我在起頭的時候啊舒适來講 講偏了我說那個雞腿棒啊關稅17.5啊我講少了 真的關稅是20%啊20%啊 各位如果雞腿棒變零關稅"},{"start":34.107,"end":58.421,"text":"各位你可以想像農民的傷害有多大嗎第二個我們整體美國進來台灣的關稅一百七十二億六十六億貨物稅貨物稅就是所謂的這個非關稅的障礙非貿易障礙營業稅我們收到的是三百九十一億"},{"start":60.71,"end":83.111,"text":"這裡面我很關心的 我相信很多立委都很關心的就是台灣是不是已經被要求了領婚稅等一下我們請副總代表一定要告訴我們雖然說你們不揭露答案但是今天公聽會你可以讓大家知道是不是被要求領婚稅我認為"},{"start":85.473,"end":96.791,"text":"我們極可能被要求零關稅當然有其他專業學者會講說更在意其他的產品不是這個可是現在零關稅面臨到最大的兩個產業一個就是農業一個就是汽車產業"},{"start":100.768,"end":125.256,"text":"汽車產業當然有委員提說已經保護這麼久了應該降為零關稅可是能夠一下子馬上降嗎等一下經濟部的長官也不是意見啊一下子降為零台灣的汽車業還有汽車能夠活那就關門算了幾個關門了而且第三大題我要強調的可以我們是民主國家"},{"start":127.401,"end":133.828,"text":"所有政府去跟他談的結果第二包括合約包括關稅你要降稅要經過立法院同意喔"},{"start":140.239,"end":165.131,"text":"最後簽字 最後同意的是立法院剛剛我跟 請教我們的總部長我們總部長很認真地做了我問他一個問題啊 說如果我們不同意咧他看起來好像一路就不宣布不同意的樣子而已我向剛剛的長官報告"},{"start":166.761,"end":194.51,"text":"最後要說怎麼過是立法院是立法院所以我們立法院可以做後盾今天我今天講這一話都正式的紀錄留下來我們就是我可以講我們不能接受美國要求我們的零關稅絕不接受絕不接受我們已經付出夠多了他現在給越南的情況"},{"start":197.058,"end":219.272,"text":"專買增加天然氣天然氣我們要從原來的這個10%要變成30%從美國而且還免費從北極圈到阿拉斯卡的那個管線我們要負擔440億美金的三分之一那就是將近150億美金那就是4000多億台幣我們負擔的這筆錢"},{"start":225.356,"end":244.29,"text":"我們付出負擔台積電一千億川普總統說兩千又說三千到底是多少我們付出不夠多嗎他們說 喔 越南又買了幾十架波音台灣沒有買波音嗎連七八七都買了台灣都先付啦還沒談就先付啦這種情況之下"},{"start":250.387,"end":267.381,"text":"我們的了解在談判的過程當中一開始你底牌揭露我們等於是跪著跟他談了能探出一個什麼好的地方外界高度質疑否則為什麼你們不宣布呢不講進度呢 全部黑箱"},{"start":268.902,"end":294.459,"text":"你可以看看日本的首相石破茂怎麼講 說七十零關稅 絕不接受美日關係多好啊在日本還有美國的駐軍多麼的依賴美國的方法他都敢這樣說結果我們的官員從頭到尾沒有一個人敢跟美國說NO全部都說YES人家沒開口 先給"},{"start":296.161,"end":312.033,"text":"我們坦白是這樣談的所以等一下真的請政府的官員代表要跟我們講一下到底為什麼川普政府馬上要公佈世界100多個國家馬上要公佈一口氣公佈"},{"start":313.733,"end":331.144,"text":"那時候就醜媳婦見公婆了那時候台灣怎麼樣就很清楚了就很清楚的沒有閃躲的空間但是呢現在外界另外一個質疑我剛才忘了講了現在想到很重要的質疑就是什麼即使早就談了 知道了"},{"start":333.645,"end":349.554,"text":"只是因為大罷免啊因為談得不好 對大罷免不利所以把它拖啊 拖在7.26之後甚至要拖到8.2升之後因為8.2升是第二體制的這個所謂的罷免 8.2升是另外一個體制所以我要強調的是"},{"start":359.484,"end":382.422,"text":"這個是關係到我們的產業發展關係到我們的就業人口關係到台灣人的生存的問題我覺得真的拜託政府官員不要政治化不要政治化我再講一遍我代表個人我是台灣的立委檢察委我代表個人零關稅絕對不能接受"},{"start":387.403,"end":397.478,"text":"如果你們談出來結果不管怎麼談到什麼20%啦怎麼樣啦說台灣竟然是零關稅那就是喪權辱國謝謝好 謝謝賴市長來召委接著請黃國昌黃委員發言"}]}},{"id":"163185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163185","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b98577b3a9d8b713d8c2384a924df5ef2610eee40b7cd06659382f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:41:24 - 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謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊 黃委員"},{"start":323.308,"end":328.762,"text":"接著請中華經濟研究院所長劉孟俊"}]}},{"id":"163196","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163196","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b98578c98f7c1fce3c1f17e529aa6299d4c22cc7fa1bd7d9a616d176963589987de955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:29:40 - 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有請那個勞動部部長"},{"start":14.712,"end":33.267,"text":"我是在這一次丹納斯颱風重創整個南部我是重災區的重災因為本席的11個區域全部都是在沒有中央山脈的一個屏障然後在7月6號17級的這個強風直接吹到就是七谷北門還有"},{"start":39.071,"end":68.002,"text":"那個布袋從這樣子登錄上來的時候你知道部長在當初就是7月6號7月6號7月6號7月7號的時候我們初步的登記就是說在台電它導了2454根的電線桿為什麼會導了這麼多的電線桿其實那是因為風力太大沒有中央山脈的一個屏障還有各種的一個原因造成的"},{"start":69.005,"end":76.083,"text":"那台電出動了多少的一個人力一萬次的一個人力那如果我們要講"},{"start":77.837,"end":104.199,"text":"電力產業工會這個近100人的台電的員工跟我們台電電力工會近3萬人的這個員工的一個工會哪一個講的比較精準我想兩個工會講的都精準部長因為電力產業工會是台南市的區域性的一個工會那台南市的區域性的一個工會其實受創我想他們應該是"},{"start":106.522,"end":121.254,"text":"最嚴重最嚴重他們的感受是最深最深的如果這個時候在救災的過程當中還有這麼多的一個口水的話是不應該的當你們看到我們整個整個就是在這幾個區域裡頭"},{"start":123.456,"end":146.733,"text":"你在每一個大街小巷看到的就是台電的工程車那個黃色的工程車在大街小巷裡頭 這樣的一個穿梭我們還需要這麼多的口水嗎 實在是不應該啊台電的員工每一個人都是這樣的一個投入啊府長 我覺得沒道理的 說這個沒道理的對一個工夫 三萬人對一個工夫 沒到一百人"},{"start":152.267,"end":178.488,"text":"想想看我們的心情啊當我們四天剛性需求停電的時候這些台電的人其實他們也是不眠不休的一個搶休啊你到了晚上兩點的時候你還有看到很多的一個工程車啊不這樣啦 不可以這樣啦我們的辦公室接到電話竟然台南沒有大罷免"},{"start":180.209,"end":193.325,"text":"這個停電的 停電的受災婦她卡來怎麼說 她說是不是因為我們不要支持你民進黨的大罷免所以你們不跟我們送電開玩笑 台電哪有那種智慧性的一個送電那這樣台電就報死啊"},{"start":196.394,"end":222.535,"text":"怎麼會是這樣子跳躍式的呢所以你就知道說這整個狀況有多慘因為到了第四天絕大部分九成還沒有送電那你說台電很笨嗎不是那是受損的面積太大太大了大家沒有在那個地方看到的時候你們沒有辦法感受到這種世界末日那個數字都是折斷了是折斷的"},{"start":225.219,"end":236.487,"text":"我想所有不管哪一個工會我們都給他加油我們都給他加油吃飯要怎麼樣擺pose我覺得這個這個都是其次的問題啊"},{"start":238.586,"end":258.637,"text":"跟各位說明我想從農部的角度其實我們非常知道這一次丹納斯颱風那對於這個我們南部其實造成的這個重創跟損失的狀況那所以我覺得我們真的是現在應該給台電跟台電的基層的員工最大最大的支持"},{"start":259.657,"end":280.761,"text":"那在這裡面真的不用有這些不必要的口水或者把它做政治化的標籤我覺得這些真的都不必要那什麼樣能夠給他們最大的支持最大的尊重我覺得現在才是政府跟這個社會最該做的事情沒有錯沒有錯部長加油謝謝那我先請那個農業部那個杜長翅"},{"start":287.243,"end":304.777,"text":"長治 這個當下是颱風帶來的一個豪雨 這17級的豪雨已經造成就是整個大台很大的一個災情的損失那短短的一週的那個強降雨 它其實已經高達357毫米就等於是高過整個六月份的降雨量355"},{"start":306.698,"end":327.651,"text":"你看喔短短幾天喔那這個災情受損的嚴重要跟你來探討一下就是說農業的一個災情那我們知道就是說農業部到目前為止我們看到的就是說不管在農產還是畜牧還有遺產那總共損失了27億那這個是初步這是初步這個27億裡頭台南有10億多有10億多"},{"start":333.635,"end":356.849,"text":"好 那我簡單的讓你看一下這一個背景今天總統在五天去了兩次那我們看到了就是文旦 文旦受損的情形部長 次長 那個文旦過五十天 就可以收了結果在整個麻豆跟下影的文旦你看現在掉滿地 這個九層 九層幾乎都是掉到地上去了"},{"start":358.223,"end":369.391,"text":"為什麼他們會掉這麼多的陳述你知道當然風大雨大還有就是說他其實也準備要休息了這個時候他相關的資深什麼其實都到這個時候他真的看到都想要流眼淚這真的很感動所以你要看"},{"start":375.656,"end":382.146,"text":"農業部如何協助農民相關的損失這個是本席今天要跟你探討的在這個農業裡頭的一個毀損還有農業設施裡頭那你"},{"start":390.077,"end":417.185,"text":"大概就是說簡單的跟你討論了幾個問題在整個農業天然災害的一個救助紓困的一個措施我們看到了非常的一個清楚這個現金的一個救助天災的一個貸款還有新增半年免息的一個措施你們有沒有在研議有有有因為表示我們在說其實 主席多給我一點時間喔 抱歉我重災重災婦抱歉"},{"start":418.285,"end":423.288,"text":"現在真的很嚴重 包括譬如說以後我們一年就只收而已嘛所以今年如果沒收什麼 你說要再支付明年要再做一些經費可能會比較困難包括貸款的還款也是有壓力所以這次我們來延避 譬如說還款可以延長免利息的時間也來延長 讓我們可以延長多久"},{"start":440.46,"end":458.579,"text":"現在免利本來就是半年那是不是有沒有辦法延長到一年因為這個有前例在這個2009年8月的時候到2010年1月的時候其實我們政府就支應了榮保跟國民年金這個是半年"},{"start":459.46,"end":473.535,"text":"可是在2021年3月的時候我們遇到了百年大旱 寒流還有COVID-19的一個沖襲那政府就宣布免貸款免息一年這個都不是首例啦都不是首例 因為他就沒休息 還要再給他還錢這個事情 壓力很大 這我們了解"},{"start":478.38,"end":499.796,"text":"所以希望就是說次長待會去研究還有在整個沿海地帶有很多的一個養殖業現在面臨到一個困境就是說這些養殖業你看死掉的這些沙巴魚還有這些餘溫裡頭的所有的遺產為什麼沒有人撈啊因為這個死的面積太大了"},{"start":500.777,"end":520.956,"text":"那你這麼大的一個面積的時候,你光靠現有的人力光是靠國軍的人力,光靠這個替代役的人力,沒辦法啦那你的機械呢?你的機械是不是應該要進來?你要怎麼樣協助這些人?因為他再來的後面延伸的就是環境的一個汙染"},{"start":522.097,"end":548.62,"text":"環境的一個汙染 那後續怎麼樣來處理所以就是說 市長 這個非常重要不是不可能 你前面都已經有那麼多次了啊這要快點清掉啦 一個就是說 我也跟青雲業者我們自己都沒說 能夠借到車 要說一些文匯上的東西我跟你講 如果農業沒有去認定這是農業上的一個損失的話 環境部不知道啦"},{"start":550.229,"end":558.257,"text":"環境部不知道啦 這個非常清楚我們這十天在地方 一直在張羅這些事情所以農業部的一個 農損的一個認定還有你的資產的一個認定 這個是農業部你們必須要快速去認定了不然你那邊的分手都不可能啦好 主席 再給我一點時間"},{"start":572.87,"end":595.129,"text":"還有一段時間 農業的天然救助跟紓困的措施 拜託長治趕快啟動 趕快啟動 然後重減 重寬不要造成那麼大的一個民怨 尤其就是在整個海域裡頭 沿岸裡頭幾乎都是老弱殘兵"},{"start":595.649,"end":617.594,"text":"有啦,所以APP企業這邊很多人有上傳,這第一點,阿第一點我們農金署如果收到資料一年,剛來得一點半塊,因為大家這台很要緊那我們知道現金的救助跟天然的一個貸款,這個已經是在運行中了可是我們希望這個免息半年延長到一年,免息半年延長到一年,然後救災基金夠不夠"},{"start":619.147,"end":644.098,"text":"你的農業救災基金夠不夠 39.6億夠不夠沒夠嘛 一定沒夠沒夠你要動用第二億倍金 你要多少錢啊我們比較快來處理錢的事情你是有處理還是沒處理一定要處理 因為絕對沒夠對 所以你要儘快因為動用到第二億倍金 所以你要快謝謝委員支持在這裡我還特別就是說跟農業部 勞動部 還有衛福部"},{"start":646.579,"end":662.068,"text":"怎麼樣去減免災民的健康保險國民年金的費用 外務部部長這個也請你跟就是我們跨部會的去研擬因為這個都有潛力的 已經有潛力了我們也希望就是說你們可以比照辦理"},{"start":663.687,"end":685.707,"text":"然後還有就是災民的醫療那個災民的醫療還有安置還有照顧的一個措施那我們知道就是整個災後的一週登革熱是最嚴重的這也是一個關鍵我不知道衛福部有沒有啟動什麼樣的一個措施協助那個民眾的一個預防"},{"start":687.512,"end":714.771,"text":"我們在第一時間已經整個去了解到整個運轉的情況剛剛有報告那至於受災的醫療院所我們也去盤整在健保的一個提供方面會給他比較合理的一個處理來幫助他運轉我們知道你的那個慰問金已經有出來的嘛死亡嘛還有失蹤的是20萬嘛重傷的是5萬嘛有關於預防登革二疾患史來啟動了一個相關的一個策略了"},{"start":715.091,"end":739.073,"text":"部長 外公 你的考驗來了喔這個風災過後 那個是滿個屋子都是蚊子在飛喔這個況且有很多龍損到現在是沒有辦法處理的喔這個整個環境是非常糟糕非常糟糕的你要加強地方政府衛生局的一個消毒要支援他 好不好是 全力以赴 全力以赴好 謝謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：洪部長請。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：這一次丹娜絲颱風重創整個南部，本席選區的11個區域全部都沒有中央山脈的屏障，是重災區的重災區，7月6號17級的強風直接吹到七股、北門、布袋，颱風這樣登陸以後，部長，7月6號、7月7號就我們初步的登記，台電倒了2,454根的電線桿，為什麼會倒了這麼多的電線桿？因為風力太大，沒有中央山脈的屏障，還有各種的原因造成的。台電出動了一萬次的人力，而電力產業工會這個近一百人的工會跟台電電力工會近三萬人的工會，哪一個講得比較精準？我想兩個工會講得都精準，部長，因為電力產業工會是一個臺南市區域性的工會，臺南市受創應該是最嚴重的，他們的感受是最深、最深的，如果這個時候，在救災的過程當中，還有這麼多的口水的話，是不應該的。當你們看到這幾個區域的每一條大街小巷都是台電的工程車，那個黃色的工程車在大街小巷裡頭這樣的穿梭，我們還需要這麼多口水嗎？實在是不應該啊！台電的員工每一個人都是這樣的投入，部長，我覺得說這些沒道理，哪一個工會三萬人？哪一個工會不到一百人？想想看我們的心情啊！當我們剛性需求停電4天的時候，這些台電的員工其實也是不眠不休的搶修，到晚上兩點的時候，你還看到很多的工程車，不能這樣啦！我們的辦公室接到電話，有停電的受災戶打來問說，是不是因為我們不支持你們民進黨的大罷免，所以你們不給我們送電？開玩笑！台電哪有那種智慧性的送電，如果是這樣台電豈不賺死了？怎麼會是這樣跳躍式的呢？所以你就知道這整個狀況有多慘，因為到了第4天，絕大部分九成的住戶還沒有送電，你說台電很笨嗎？不是，那是受損的面積太大、太大了，大家沒有在那個地方看到的時候，你們沒有辦法感受到這種世界末日的感覺，樹枝都折斷了，我想不管哪一個工會，我們都要給他們加油，至於吃飯要怎麼樣擺pose？我覺得這都是其次的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，從勞動部的角度，我們非常知道這一次丹娜絲颱風對於南部造成重創跟損失，所以我覺得現在真的應該給台電跟台電的基層員工最大、最大的支持，在這裡面真的不用有這些不必要的口水，或者把它做政治化的標籤，我覺得這些真的都不必要，怎麼樣能夠給他們最大的支持、最大的尊重，我覺得才是現在政府跟社會最該做的事情。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，部長加油！謝謝。","接著請教農業部杜常次，丹娜絲颱風帶來的豪雨，已經造成整個大臺南很大的災情、很大的損失，短短一週的強降雨已經高達357毫米，已經高過整個6月份的降雨量355毫米，所以要跟你來探討一下農業的災情，我們知道到目前為止，不管在農產、畜牧還是漁產，總共損失了27億，這個是初步估計，在這個27億裡頭，臺南就有十億多。我簡單讓你看一下背景，總統在5天內去了2次，我們看到了文旦受損的情形，次長，文旦再50天就可以採收了，結果整個麻豆跟下營的文旦，你看現在掉滿地，有九成啦！九成幾乎都是掉到地上去了，為什麼他們會掉這麼多的成數，你知道嗎？當然風大、雨大，還有就是他其實……"],["杜次長文珍：這個時候準備要收成了，相關的支撐什麼的其實都是到這個時候，看到真的都快要流眼淚了，這真的很嚴重。"],["賴委員惠員：所以農業部如何協助農民相關的損失，這個是本席今天要跟你探討的，在農業裡頭的毀損，還有農業設施裡頭，簡單地跟你討論幾個問題。在整個農業天然災害救助的紓困措施，我們看得非常清楚，現金的救助、天災的貸款，還有新增半年免息的措施，你們有沒有在研議？"],["杜次長文珍：有、有、有，其實比如說……"],["賴委員惠員：主席，多給我一點時間，不好意思，我是重災戶，不好意思。"],["杜次長文珍：這次真的很嚴重，包括柚子一年就採收一次而已，所以今年如果沒收成，要他再支付明年栽種的一些經費，可能會比較困難，包括貸款的還款也是有壓力，所以這個部分我們會來研議，比如說還款可以延長、免利息的時間也延長，讓他們可以……"],["賴委員惠員：延長多久？現在免利息本來就是半年。"],["杜次長文珍：我知道，但是我們儘量來處理。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有辦法延長到一年？"],["杜次長文珍：我們儘量來處理。"],["賴委員惠員：因為這個有前例，在2009年8月到2010年1月的時候，其實我們政府就支應了農保跟國民年金，這個是半年；可是在2021年3月的時候，我們遇到了百年大旱、寒流，還有COVID-19的衝擊，政府就宣布貸款免息一年，這個都不是首例啦！"],["杜次長文珍：我儘量來朝這個方向……"],["賴委員惠員：都不是首例。"],["杜次長文珍：因為他就沒收成了，要再叫他還錢，這個事情確實壓力很大，這個我們了解。"],["賴委員惠員：所以希望次長帶回去研究。"],["杜次長文珍：好。"],["賴委員惠員：還有整個沿海地帶有很多的養殖業，現在面臨到一個困境，你看死掉的這些虱目魚，還有這些魚塭裡頭的所有漁產，為什麼沒有人撈？因為死的面積太大了，這麼大面積的時候，光靠現有的人力，光是靠國軍的人力，光靠替代役的人力，沒辦法啦！那你的機械是不是應該要進來？你要怎麼樣協助這些人？因為再來後面延伸的就是環境的污染，那後續怎麼樣來處理？"],["杜次長文珍：這個我們會……"],["賴委員惠員：次長，這個非常重要。"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["賴委員惠員：不是不可能，你前面都已經有那麼多次啦！"],["杜次長文珍：這要趕快來清除啦！一個就是說我們也會跟這些清運業者溝通，讓我們農民可以叫到車，比如像是一些運費什麼的，我們都會幫忙來處理，但是……"],["賴委員惠員：我跟你講，如果農業部沒有去認定這是農業上的損失的話，環境部不敢載走啦！環境部不敢載走啦！這個非常清楚了，我們這10天在地方就是一直在張羅這些事情。"],["杜次長文珍：好，我們來協調、我們來協調。"],["賴委員惠員：所以農業部的農損認定，還有資產的認定，這個是農業部你們必須要快速去認定的。"],["杜次長文珍：好，這我們來協調。"],["賴委員惠員：不然那些垃圾都放在那裡啦！"],["杜次長文珍：是，好，我們趕緊找環境部來……"],["賴委員惠員：主席，再給我一點時間。農業天然災害救助跟紓困的措施，拜託常次趕快啟動……"],["杜次長文珍：一定全力來……"],["賴委員惠員：然後從簡從寬，不要造成那麼大的民怨，尤其在整個海域、沿岸，幾乎都是老弱殘兵啊！"],["杜次長文珍：有啦！所以app這次有很多人上傳，這是第一點。第二點，我們農金署如果收到資料，他們兩天裡面一定撥款，因為這個事情很重要。"],["賴委員惠員：我們知道現金的救助跟天然災害的貸款，這個已經是在運行中了，可是我們希望免息半年能延長到一年。"],["杜次長文珍：好，我們馬上回去處理。"],["賴委員惠員：免息半年延長到一年，然後救災基金夠不夠？你的農業救災基金夠不夠？39.6億夠不夠？不夠嘛！"],["杜次長文珍：一定不夠。"],["賴委員惠員：不夠的話就要動用第二預備金，你要趕快送啊！"],["杜次長文珍：我們趕快來處理錢的事情。"],["賴委員惠員：你是有沒有在處理？"],["杜次長文珍：有，一定要處理，因為絕對不夠。"],["賴委員惠員：對，所以你要儘快。"],["杜次長文珍：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：因為動用到第二預備金，所以你要快。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員支持、謝謝委員支持。"],["賴委員惠員：好，在這裡我還特別跟農業部、勞動部還有衛福部講，怎麼樣去減免災民健康保險、國民年金的費用，衛福部部長，這個也請你跨部會的去研擬，因為這個都已經有前例了，我們也希望你們可以比照辦理，很辛苦啊！很辛苦啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來研議。"],["賴委員惠員：還有災民的醫療，還有安置、照顧的措施，我們知道整個災後的一周，登革熱是最嚴重的，這也是一個關鍵，我不知道衛福部有沒有啟動什麼樣的措施協助民眾預防？"],["邱部長泰源：我們在第一時間已經去了解到整個運轉的情況，剛剛有報告，所以受災的醫療院所我們也有去盤點，在健保的提供方面會給它比較合理的處理，來幫助它運轉。"],["賴委員惠員：我們知道你的慰問金已經有出來了，死亡還有失蹤的是20萬，重傷的是5萬。"],["邱部長泰源：有關於預防登革熱，疾管署也啟動了一個相關的策略。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，我跟你說，你的考驗來了喔！這個風災過後，滿屋子都是蚊子在飛喔！況且有很多農損到現在是沒有辦法處理的喔！整個環境是非常糟糕、非常糟糕的，你要加強地方政府衛生局的消毒，要支援它，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是，全力以赴、全力以赴。"],["賴委員惠員：拜託、拜託。"],["邱部長泰源：全力以赴。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員苦民所苦，謝謝部長。","繼續我們請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163195","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857a3570ccc0237565a7e529aa6299d4c22bf5d88cf2e24a70ecbf5781e8931119d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:38:08 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謝謝主席 麻煩請我們食藥署 江署長補充 先休息一下"},{"start":30.648,"end":57.063,"text":"在你們所屬業務裡面有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定目前醬油的標示規定大概也分成這幾類有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油我想要請教就是說在這四種類別的醬油裡面哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的"},{"start":60.674,"end":62.159,"text":"鮑爾園"},{"start":62.964,"end":90.366,"text":"很久沒有買醬油猜的好了那個應該是釀造醬油因為是最傳統的古法你真的蠻聰明的真的確實是這個釀造的醬油價格是最高的因為雖然這幾種醬油它的這個原料都相同但是釀造的時間最長時間就是金錢所以釀造醬油是售價最高的那那我再請教你你那麼聰明再猜猜看"},{"start":91.207,"end":101.394,"text":"在這四個類別裡面在市面上哪一個有一個類別已經是不存在的你知道是哪個類別嗎我猜是右下角的速成是不是還是速成醬油猜一下"},{"start":109.52,"end":133.792,"text":"好對果然能夠當食藥署署長頭腦還是不簡單確實這個速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情那現在我要請教你這麼聰明的食藥署署長那請問既然已經不存在的類別為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類"},{"start":136.226,"end":151.055,"text":"你要繼續保存呢還是要這個已經不存在的這個我回去檢討一下他的必要性之後再跟委員做進一步報告好你那麼聰明應該知道要怎麼做啦就已經沒有了好那"},{"start":152.796,"end":178.868,"text":"再來過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫雖然當時您不是食藥署署長但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程的標示規範規定有很重要的參考價值我想了解就是說你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來"},{"start":182.59,"end":199.867,"text":"這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫好那就是維持原來的就沒有新的嘛是的好我記得說這份報告裡面其實我們主要是要解決是否以果醣酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據那檢測結果我們來看一下"},{"start":207.137,"end":229.558,"text":"在108件我们国产的酿造酱油里面全部都没有检测到果糖酸出来那29件国外输入的样本27件未检出那有一件是低于0.1%那只有一件是超标的"},{"start":230.479,"end":250.14,"text":"這樣的結果顯示出我們台灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒都沒有問題那可是呢如果因此我們這樣去要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須要自己去標示說他們都沒有"},{"start":250.6,"end":272.599,"text":"含沒有這個果糖酸的這個含量或者是果糖酸低於0.1%那除了這個增加這個檢測的成本之外呢其他他們這個標示也都要全部都改我想這個是一個不太合理的一個要求那因為"},{"start":273.86,"end":296.503,"text":"通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白我想一般大家都無罪推論啦那有罪你就是要去提出證據來嘛所以我想這樣的行政規定我不曉得合不合理我不知道這個署長看法怎麼樣"},{"start":298.374,"end":315.751,"text":"就果醣酸因為我看這個圖表因為之前同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過那因為食品安全還是以科學分析的基礎如果我管制上面用0.1它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%"},{"start":317.546,"end":340.697,"text":"所以造成了一些會有一些些影響雖然說我們國內的醬油是0.1%的話釀造醬油的確都是符合的但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果我想後續接下來我們會我想這個已經開始慢慢要進入到去我們會去討論到這個靈敏度跟那個特異度的問題"},{"start":342.358,"end":371.36,"text":"我想在这份报告就是另外的结果也有显示就是说有另外两种的这个水解跟调和酱油我们再继续看29个水解酱油有8个果糖酸未减出或低于0.1%那29个调和酱油有10个未减出或低于0.1%所以如果以果糖酸作为标示酿造酱油的关键指标"},{"start":372.361,"end":378.596,"text":"那我們看18個水解跟調和醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油"},{"start":380.663,"end":405.594,"text":"因為這個數據這樣子顯示我們反過來講那如果他可以標示如果規定是這樣那他標示了釀造醬油這個價格馬上就翻倍了剛剛署長馬上就猜說釀造醬油應該是最貴的現在大家都知道了那本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為這個釀造醬油的意圖"},{"start":407.495,"end":434.2,"text":"但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後呢漏洞出來了他們反而可以就是說違反規定就是讓價格翻倍也會變成是沒有違規的問題了我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論不知道署長認不認同委員這個講得非常非常精準因為就我的"},{"start":435.502,"end":450.75,"text":"市場的稽查的時候如果以這個標準去當稽查那的確他一線切下來他小於0.1如果他標示說他是釀造的我們很難去做後續判斷他真的釀造或者是"},{"start":452.291,"end":468.466,"text":"所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題那看來食藥署都有弄懂了那我想問題的本質在於沒有的你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有那"},{"start":470.09,"end":498.248,"text":"卻反而開了一扇門讓他們讓這些就是說可能或許未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示那我想就是說我也是有點想不通啦所以說這樣子去改變醬油的標示那我不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡除了增加成本給出模糊的空間以外到底還有什麼就是說有利於民眾的好處"},{"start":499.605,"end":527.416,"text":"有嗎目前我們針對這個議題其實持續在研議也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們去做該如何去的確果醣酸單一的很困難當作是一個判斷因為醬油我們每天每天這麼多人在吃那現在是這樣我舉個例子好了就像早期這個紅標米酒的原料它也"},{"start":528.917,"end":548.819,"text":"應該不是早期啦我是說紅標米酒的原料它也有參入這個食品級的鹽酸那經過發酵蒸餾之後它就完全就去除了難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎你家變成鹽酸米酒我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧"},{"start":549.6,"end":577.292,"text":"那在特別在監察院110年8月23號的函文裡面這個有特別提醒你們說在把這個食品安全衛生管理法第28條第一項規定食品標示不得有不實誇張或異生誤解之情形所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文再提醒你們一次因為"},{"start":578.905,"end":598.115,"text":"在這個水解過程中使用鹽酸那醬油販售成為商品之後它也就都沒有鹽酸了那還要要求廠商來標示說鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油我覺得這個是讓民眾"},{"start":601.576,"end":625.524,"text":"看了會卻步的事情所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦那我不知道就是說署長你新上任你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的一個想法跟看法因為我很怕你們被逼著違法耶"},{"start":626.537,"end":650.792,"text":"報告委員這邊因為不管我們的鹽酸或者我們之前其他的叫做氫鹽也就是酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉都是所謂的加工注劑這加工注劑在國際間的規範在我們在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示那要因為已經的確是五委員所說的化學反應之後最後他其實是沒有特別鹽酸的存在"},{"start":651.152,"end":677.37,"text":"沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧我想本席是絕對要會支持就是說我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標建立那既然 署長你又是這個台大的這個醫學院的教授好的指標必須要同時要符合這個我剛剛前面講的靈敏度跟他的特異度都要高同時都要高那所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前他"},{"start":679.011,"end":693.018,"text":"我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據所以結果是證明說以果醣酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標它是存在有這個特異度高靈敏度不到七成的問題"},{"start":694.259,"end":716.733,"text":"所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個那全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定所以除非你們有最新的數據支持不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的一個標示一定要有很明確的目的跟依據不然你們就是為了管制而管制了那除了增加業者的成本"},{"start":717.954,"end":737.633,"text":"也是就是說業者提高了這個醬油的價格然後到頭來最後傷害的還是我們民眾的荷包甚至影響到物價上揚所以我最後請就請你們就是說醬油製就是說這個醬油製造為釀造醬油以果醣酸為標示重新檢討那並於這個"},{"start":740.416,"end":754.866,"text":"就是說我讓你們有很長的時間六個月一年都可以你們就是好好研究然後提出報告之後再來做這個定論好不好好謝謝委員我們再去進一步的研究分析謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1280,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時38分）好，謝謝主席。麻煩請食藥署姜署長，部長先休息一下。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。在你們所屬的業務內有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定，目前醬油的標示規定大概分成了這幾類，有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油。我想請教的就是，在這四種類別的醬油裡面，哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，很久沒有買醬油，我用猜的好了，應該是釀造醬油，因為是最傳統的古法。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你真的蠻聰明的，確實是釀造醬油的價格最高。因為雖然這幾種醬油的原料都相同，但是釀造的時間最長，時間就是金錢，所以釀造醬油是售價最高的。我再請教你，你那麼聰明，你再猜猜看，在這四個類別裡面，目前市面上有一個類別已經是不存在的，你知道是哪個類別嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我猜是右下角的速成醬油。"],["陳委員瑩：對，果然能夠當食藥署署長，頭腦還是不簡單。確實速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情，現在我要請教這麼聰明的食藥署署長，請問既然是已經不存在的類別，為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類？你是要繼續保存呢？還是對於這個已經不存在的，你們要把它拿掉？"],["姜署長至剛：這個容我回去檢討一下它的必要性之後，再跟委員做進一步報告。"],["陳委員瑩：好，你那麼聰明，應該知道要怎麼做啦，這個就已經沒有了。","再來，過去衛福部在109年曾經有一項醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫，雖然當時您不是食藥署署長，但是這份報告對於現階段的包裝醬油製程之標示規定有很重要的參考價值，我想了解的是，你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來？"],["姜署長至剛：這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那就是維持原來的，就是沒有新的嘛？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我記得在這份報告裡面，其實我們主要是要解決是否以果糖酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據，我們來看一下檢測結果，在108件我們國產的釀造醬油裡面，全部都沒有檢測到果糖酸，在29件國外輸入的樣本裡面，有27件未檢出，有1件是低於0.1%，只有1件是超標的，這樣的結果顯示出我們臺灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒、都沒有問題，可是如果因此我們卻要要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須自己去標示他們都沒有果糖酸的含量，或者是果糖酸低於0.1%，除了增加檢測的成本之外，他們的標示也要全部都改，我想這是一個不太合理的要求啦，因為通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西，就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白，我想一般大家都是無罪推論，若有罪，你就是要提出證據嘛，所以我想這樣的行政規定，我不曉得合不合理，不知道署長的看法為何？"],["姜署長至剛：就果糖酸的部分，我看這個圖表，之前我們同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過，因為食品安全還是以科學分析為基礎，如果我在管制上面用0.1%，它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%，所以會有造成一些影響，雖然說我們國內的醬油是用0.1%的話，釀造醬油的確都是符合的，但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果，就是……"],["陳委員瑩：我想後續、接下來已經開始慢慢要進入到我們會去討論到靈敏度跟特異度的問題。在這份報告裡面的結果也有顯示，有另外兩種的水解跟調合醬油，我們再繼續看，29個水解醬油有8個是果糖酸未檢出或低於0.1%；29個調合醬油有10個是未檢出或低於0.1%，所以如果以果糖酸作為標示釀造醬油的關鍵指標，那我們來看，18個水解跟調合醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油？因為這個數據這樣子顯示，我們反過來講嘛，如果它可以標示，如果規定是這樣，那它標示了釀造醬油，這個價格馬上就翻倍了啊！剛剛署長馬上就猜釀造醬油應該是最貴的，現在大家都知道了，本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為釀造醬油的意圖，但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後，漏洞出來了喔，他們反而可以違反規定，就是讓價格翻倍，也會變成是沒有違規的問題了，我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論，不知道署長認不認同？"],["姜署長至剛：委員講得非常精準，因為就我們市場稽查的時候，如果以這個標準去稽查，的確一線切下來，小於0.1%的如果標示說它是釀造的，我們很難去做後續判斷它是真的釀造或者不是……"],["陳委員瑩：所以我現在特別點出這樣子的問題，看來食藥署都有弄懂了，我想問題的本質在於沒有的，你們要人家自己去證明自己沒有，反而開了一扇門，讓這些可能未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示。我也是有點想不通，這樣子去改變醬油的標示不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡，除了增加成本、給出模糊的空間以外，到底還有什麼有利於民眾的好處？有嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：目前我們針對這個議題是持續在研議，也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們，的確果糖酸單一的……很困難當作是一個判斷的基準。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我們每天有這麼多人在吃醬油，現在是這樣，我舉個例子好了，就像早期紅標米酒的原料，應該不是早期啦，我是說紅標米酒的原料也有摻入食品級鹽酸，經過發酵、蒸餾之後就完全去除了，難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎？若變成鹽酸米酒，我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧！","監察院110年8月23號的函文有特別提醒你們說，食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條第一項規定，食品標示不得有不實、誇張或易生誤解之情形。所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文，再提醒你們一次，因為在水解過程中使用鹽酸，醬油販售、成為商品之後，它也就都沒有鹽酸了，還要要求廠商來標示鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油，我覺得這個是讓民眾看了會卻步的事情，所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦！署長你新上任，你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定？還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的想法跟看法？因為我很怕你們被逼著違法。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，不管是我們的鹽酸，或者我們之前其他的叫做酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉，都是所謂的加工助劑，加工助劑在國際間的規範，在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示，的確是如委員所說的，化學反應之後，最後它其實是沒有鹽酸的存在。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧！我想本席是絕對會支持我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標的建立。署長，你又是臺大醫學院的教授，好的指標必須同時要符合我剛剛前面講的，靈敏度跟特異度都要高，同時都要高，所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前，我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據，所以結果是證明說，以果糖酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標，它是存在有特異度高、靈敏度不到七成的問題，所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個部分，全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定，除非你們有最新的數據支持，不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的標示，一定要有很明確的目的和依據，否則你們就是為了管制而管制。除了增加業者的成本，業者提高了醬油的價格，到頭來最後傷害的還是民眾的荷包，甚至影響到物價上揚。","最後，請你們對於醬油製造未釀造醬油以果糖酸為標示重新檢討，我讓你們有很長的時間，6個月、1年都可以，你們就是好好研究，然後提出報告，之後再來作定論，好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：好，謝謝委員，我們帶回去進一步研究分析，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝署長。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員陳永康、楊曜、廖偉翔、盧縣一所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員陳永康書面質詢：","一、本席認為，我國基於特殊國情，一直需要建構比其他國家強度更高的國家安全戰略能量，以保安康，即使眼前最緊要的國安議題為如何因應全球關稅戰，但國安方面的常態性工作，也必須日有精進，不可因關稅戰而影響其進度。對於現行措施中有所缺漏，必須建置與補強者，不可因此怠忽，因此特就醫療體系於面臨重大災變與戰爭時應儲備之能量，就教於行政院。","二、本次南部災後，大家都體驗到斷電帶給廣大民眾生活上的具大不便，卻忽略一個更重要的問題：醫療體系在面臨這一種強度，甚至更高強度的緊急狀態時可以維持多少功能？由於本次風災並未直接造成太多民眾傷損，因此並未在短期內爆發就醫潮，且重大醫療院所多半位居都會區，電力基礎設施本就有較佳防護，受損並不嚴重，因此尚未傳出重大醫療失能（第一波挑戰可能會出現在一週後的登革熱爆發或是腸病毒流行）。但是如果將這個場景切換成「戰爭」情境，將會完全不同。","三、首先，戰爭期間，電力設施、通信設施及給水系統會在第一時間首遭精準破壞，這三種關鍵基礎設施是維持醫療體系正常運作的重中之重，藥品、血液的儲存，加護病房及一般開刀房的運作，傷患的基礎衛生工作，全面性醫療資源調度，也都要靠這些系統維持運作才能確保。其次，戰爭期間會發生大量傷亡，傷患安置及屍體處理也都依賴這三種系統正常運作。第三，戰爭期間必然發生的疫情蔓延及新增的公衛需求，仍然依賴這三種系統正常運作。這些「超越常態」的要求，是強化防衛韌性過程中必須攻克的科目。我們從這次風災中可以看出，一旦發生此種情境，恐怕很難再從中央政府或是民間取得額外援助，必須自立更生，因此將「非常態能量的儲備預置入常態儲備」，是醫療系統必須逐漸建立的效能。","四、經本席瞭解，目前仍有諸多尚待改進之處，特此提供行政院參考精進：","1.醫療院所增設自主發電設備（包括發電機、儲油槽）方面：設置容量應訂為多少小時？發電機及儲油槽設置應注意工程重點及消防標準？戰爭期間自主發電設備最可能被攻擊樣態及最安全樣態？凡此皆須國防部及消防署立即提供專業規格需求清單，俾衛福部援以建立工作計畫。","2.目前衛福部將緊急醫療的管理列入醫院評鑑項目，而評鑑項目限於「醫療機構環境安全諮詢計畫」，且偏重火災事件之排除，諮詢合作對象為澳洲評鑑機構（ACHSI），並非以戰地醫療專業著稱。而上述國安狀態下之醫療需求，則另成立「強化韌性」單位，並未達到將「非常態能量的儲備預置入常態儲備」的要求，日後必會發生指揮紊亂現象，宜予以統一管理。","3.相關計畫涉及專業人力培訓，此為當務之急，宜結合軍民能量，有效銜接統籌。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","壹、如何持續精進災難醫療救護隊制度之法源依據是否不明確？","問題：2000年，當時的衛生署成立國家級災難醫療救護隊，北部設在台大醫院、南部設在成大醫院，後來醫院評鑑要求重度級急救責任醫院都必須成立區域級災難醫療救護隊，由縣市衛生局指揮。媒體報導，有醫師表示，《緊急醫療救護法》規定「遇緊急傷病或大量病患救護，或為協助其轉診服務救災救護指揮中心得派遣當地醫院救護車及救護人員出勤，醫院不得無故拒絕」，但並非特別針對災難醫療救護隊，目前災難醫療救護隊的人員組成、指揮調度、啟動機制、經費來源、出勤人員的保險、後勤支援等，其實並沒有明確的法源依據，該醫師更進一步表示：「先前曾以災難醫療救護隊的身分，前進地震災區救災，理應受消防局指揮，不過到了現場，衛生局又有權調度醫護人員，究竟現場指揮權由誰主導？如果有專法，是否可建立制度？」對此，衛福部如何災難醫療救護隊制度運作之法源依據研議精進措施並提出修法草案？又綜觀衛福部災難醫療救護訓練中心各區域訓練課程，主要仍以醫療體系為主，但現今災難發生時多為複合式災難，需要與其他行政機關聯繫溝通，以確保災難發生時，災難醫療體系能運作順暢，為此，請教衛福部，各區緊急醫療應變中心是否與其他行政機關建立聯繫平台，並透過定期演練，確保溝通順暢？","貳、勞動力發展署創客基地如何結合在地產業提升產值並創新？","問題：澎湖縣是觀光地區，在澎湖創客基地成立之初，我認為，創客基地應與澎湖觀光產業做結合，催生澎湖特產的新風貌，然創客基地成立逾7個年頭，始終無法有具體成果呈現，本席認為，創客基地的理念與政府審計預算，二者概念存在是有衝突性的─創意的發想，被政府關鍵績效指標給扼殺了，但政府覈實預算執行卻是行政機關的責任，因此，本席要求勞動力發展署，二個月內研議，提出創客基地轉型方案供本席參考。","參、台美關稅公布在即，國人將焦點放在美豬美牛內臟的進口管制放寬等議題。","問題：1、未來若美豬美牛比照聯合國國際食品法典委員會(CODEX)所制訂的萊克多巴胺的殘留標準擴大進口量，衛福部會如何把關食安，保障民眾健康？","2、請教衛福部，我國針對美豬美牛的檢測方式是否符合國際標準？以及未來若真的放寬至國際標準，衛福部是否會針對美豬美牛再做一次健康風險評估，依據科學根據向社會大眾說明政府把關食安的決心？"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","案由：鑒於近期台美關稅談判前景不明，且相較於世界各大主要經濟體，台美的關稅談判遲遲沒有結果。據媒體報導，我國有意用開放美國牛內臟與絞肉進口，並放寬美豬萊克多巴胺劑容許量，做為爭取美方降低晶片關稅的籌碼，引發各界用食安換經濟的質疑。為確保國民食品安全不受影響，爰向衛福部提出書面質詢。","說明：","1.台美關稅談判下，有無壓力調整現行進口食品（如含萊劑美豬、美牛、基因改造食品）查驗及風險管理標準？若有此傾向，近期是否曾針對美牛內臟、絞肉等高風險品項進行新一輪風險評估？評估結果為何？是否有依此標準，表達立場，向行政院或經濟部建議之？","2.國際貿易談判一向講求現實主義，於美大台小之情況下，也致使各界屢生「用食安換經濟」的質疑。故退一步言之，若真的不幸將開放品項與降低瘦肉精標準，依然需要邊境抽檢之執行。試問衛福部，談判結果如導致某些高風險食品大幅增加進口，食藥署在預警、抽驗、資訊公告等機制上有無新因應措施？","3.對於萊豬、萊牛進入校園，遭到許多家長反對。故台中市率先訂定《台中市學校午餐自治條例》，雖遭遭行政院函告規定屬無效，但經台中市政府提起訴訟後，在今年初最高行政法院審理後認定，現行學校午餐業務法源主要依據為《學校衛生法》，依《學校衛生法》第23條第3項規定立法意旨，明定學校供應膳食，應優先採用中央農業主管機關認證的在地優良農業產品，因此地方自治團體在不牴觸中央法規範圍內，訂定自治條例要求學校提供午餐「不得使用肉品原料來源非國產之各式肉類加工品」，合乎《學校衛生法》的立法意旨，未違反中央法令，最終定讞。簡言之，未來若邊境進口加大開放力度，可預見各縣市將依此模式，立法將萊豬、萊牛禁入校園。對此，衛福部立場為何？若遭美方反彈，又該如何因應，以守住這最後食安堡壘，並調和外部貿易與國內法院判決之矛盾？"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","衛福部對於：屏東恆春半島地處台灣最南端，涵蓋恆春、滿州、牡丹、車城、枋山、獅子等多個鄉鎮，更肩負台東南端地區之急重症照護任務，屏東、台東醫療需求龐大卻醫療資源匱乏，在地民眾就醫困難重重。近年來有規劃哪些提升改善措施？"],["主席：現在作以下宣告：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另行要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（12時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857356fb6610f69f4467e529aa6299d4c22bf5d88cf2e24a70e0ecafa458f489ced5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:25:44 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其實補充也已經強調幾個部分針對運醫療 查災損 顧安置 都有很完整的處理方法這部分是不是利用這個時間 麻煩補充再給大家報告一下這個完整的內容 給大家做參考好 我先用這個納斯風災的例子來看我們衛福部的緊急"},{"start":126.94,"end":150.431,"text":"緊急應變的一個制度第一個我們一開始當然就是要緊急醫療管理系統就要開案了這樣才能知道各地方傷患所居的情況第二個我們本部有六區我們台灣有六個區的緊急醫療應變中心我們立即來監各個應變中心就是看他當地緊急醫療救護系統其中的情況以及急救責任醫院的運作狀況"},{"start":151.411,"end":176.025,"text":"那另外因為這是風災嘛,所以我們怕說淫水或是說有時候剛剛有習委員提的那種情況其實我們也把弱勢的一個病人能夠希望我們所有的縣市我們跟衛生局都有一直在互動把他移到安全的地方,特別是洗腎的硬殘戶撤離這個都有弱勢,而且這個是"},{"start":178.466,"end":189.491,"text":"每8小時可能就要在應變中心裡面報告這樣的一個移動的一個情況以及它整個這種情況那當然我們現在如果有更"},{"start":190.902,"end":219.019,"text":"更特別的一個災變的一個發生當然我們除了這樣啟動的部分以外當然我們也會更動員到全國的醫療院所的一個支援另外就是社工方面在收容安置這個部分也會有完整的一個規劃包括各個救濟站這個都怎麼樣利用學校怎麼樣利用衛生所等等的這個我們都有"},{"start":219.699,"end":235.14,"text":"一個週密的一個機制在規劃其實大家也知道因為台灣真的是每一年的風災颱風影響很大至少一年都平均有3.2個颱風會侵襲台灣每一次颱風之前不管中央地方都會開設"},{"start":236.621,"end":265.167,"text":"一些應變中心來做一些安排那也看到這一次的確透過這樣的安排得到很好的一些照顧模式當然還是有很多的部分其實需要加強啦剛才博長有跟我們說明說很多都是經過事前的一些安排處置所以也的確發揮它的量能還有互相幫助的這個成果不過我們也知道這個安置到底有沒有制度上的忽略"},{"start":266.727,"end":294.956,"text":"這個就是剛剛部長有提到我們看到一些新聞媒體的報導他們說你們待會還有處理屋頂還在就不用通知他們安置所以很顯然就是說我們在制度上需要再補強當然我們透過這一次風災的這麼大的傷害的影響還是有很多需要再檢討的地方所以不是說我們通知就表示"},{"start":295.656,"end":312.349,"text":"照顧到他的安全同理跟他照顧其實還是有一些落差那尤其現在是不管是偏鄉或者是非偏鄉可是有一些弱勢的失能的失智的長者這邊特別來讓他們知道我們之前都說"},{"start":315.011,"end":341.883,"text":"自己通知說你去哪裡問題是很多的通知是臨時通知的這些人通知的對或不會這個就是未來我們希望透過這次風災造成的影響在制度上是不是需要再重新檢討同時來補強不管是事前通知也好或者是這些失年的應變機制也好還有偏鄉幼視失能長者的保護機制也好"},{"start":342.743,"end":365.063,"text":"這部分我不知道我們現在在檢討的時候會包括幾部分包括剛剛有委員提到處理他需要呼吸器的還有他可能在家裡需要洗腎的這個如果是沒有電沒有水這要怎麼幫忙他 屬性要怎麼安排這個應該說要事先就有機制"},{"start":365.723,"end":382.458,"text":"不管是中央要出指引有地方來執行過程當中碰到的問題還有中央能不能夠建就是請中央這邊就開始建立這些弱勢的時候出現這些天災地損應該有完整的安置名冊"},{"start":383.539,"end":401.407,"text":"你先知道說哪裡有什麼人他住哪裡 他如果要安置 安置去什麼地方這個都要有一個整體的配套這樣我們就不會發生問題這開始通緝 通緝也不知道我們通緝道有辦法處理還是沒有這部分是不是可以現在補充來做相關的這個研議或者是在執行上將來要怎麼來做應變的部分"},{"start":410.935,"end":414.966,"text":"謝謝委員的一個隨行那當然我們各個"},{"start":416.334,"end":444.58,"text":"因為各個縣市衛生局或社政他都有一定的非常佈置到相當周全的一個照顧那這中間一會發生變化的話無論是電話卡不通啦或者是說人力的縣市這個部分的確如果能夠在照冊上更加的周全包括我們獨基老人這個部分有時候也要注意這樣的情況我想謝謝委員我們會把這樣的工作再把它來檢討來把它更落實"},{"start":445.52,"end":473.396,"text":"好,包括衛生、社政,還有包括地方衛生局、林里長,你如果有這個名冊出來,當然你做事情就改善好處第二項就是有關這個疫苗配套的部分,上一次也有麻煩部長開始來研議相關的,不管是中央或地方來提供這個疫苗能量配送的服務,這部分相信部長應該是不來開始做相關措施的研討,不過"},{"start":474.296,"end":491.229,"text":"今天要請教的是我們知道目前有一些疫苗如果出現問題的話他可能就需要做賠償尤其是公費疫苗我們再來看到113年一共有699件是需要做公費疫苗的賠償"},{"start":492.89,"end":513.48,"text":"這個賠償裡面有幾個部分其實可以透過一些制度上或者是好的一個設計模式來減少這樣的錯誤包括重複接種 接種間隔時間不足還有施打與非計畫的實施對象這六八九的高經驗裡面就有416件其實是可以透過好的資料串接"},{"start":514.74,"end":543.359,"text":"你如果主要用好血透過可能說一個人要去住兩邊也不可能說你不是要住的人要照來住這根本不應該讓他發生啊就不然我們不知道有什麼好的辦法讓這個資料的串接不管是透過現有的健保資料庫也好或者是目前的疾管署的資料裡面要讓他串接好血不要讓這樣的錯誤重複發生部長這邊有什麼好的方法嗎我想"},{"start":545.22,"end":557.167,"text":"因為我也當過很久的醫事公會,包括台北市醫事公會理事長,我覺得我也聽到很多的醫院跟特別是診所在資料上的一個"},{"start":560.309,"end":582.693,"text":"JJ的必要性那其實衛護部在疾管署從110年已經前面推動核A的醫療驗所我們用APIJJ的模式進行HIDS跟NIDS就是醫療資訊體系跟全國預防接種資訊管理系統的一個自動交換查詢跟核對修正那到113年已經全國有3200家的大概有效的"},{"start":588.548,"end":602.74,"text":"餐飲可以在24小時裡面就是完成這樣的一個上傳所以那個降低了70%以上的接種勿施所以我想這個部分我們會讓他一直進步"},{"start":604.166,"end":629.27,"text":"因為起碼這方面可以進步就可以減少這方面的困擾避免我們基層的診所在參與的時候不僅付出他的勞力還要被扣款還是還要受到處罰我想也拜託各縣市的醫師公會如果了解一下會員有困難跟當地的縣市衛生局 縣市衛生局其實都很"},{"start":630.65,"end":634.952,"text":"很熱心來幫忙處理那跟我們機關署這邊一起來解決六百九十高童裡面要做造價賠償原價賠償你自己租的金額是四百幾萬"},{"start":645.806,"end":670.058,"text":"六百九十九千要四百幾萬 表示說有一些的賠償可能是有一些可以在討論的地方 啊我們現在只分兩種一個就是無需賠償 啊不然就是要原價賠償 啊你中間有一個 有可能說什麼經營之下你要造價賠償 什麼幾分 什麼經營你就只需要賠償一半啊或者是幾個百分比 這部分可能也要麻煩市府裡面來處理"},{"start":671.118,"end":698.667,"text":"好的所以最難就是針對這部分來改善這個疫苗配套強化基層參與有三個部分就是能量配送還有這個有效資料串接疫苗處置費我們也知道其實很辛苦出一百塊事實上成本是四百幾塊這個如何能夠讓這個參與者把基層診所當用心而且能夠努力的來參與是不是讓一個月裡面有個諮問報告"},{"start":699.807,"end":704.051,"text":"這幾點我們都會來努力,而且在一個月內提出施政報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1238,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長你好。最近辛苦了，臺北、臺南四處跑。"],["邱部長泰源：不會，這是應該的。"],["王委員正旭：大家一起加油。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：我們都是嘉義人，就像蔡易餘說的，我們都是自己人啦！這次的颱風確實真的對嘉義、臺南的影響很大，電線桿一共倒了2,454支，超過2,000支，讓我們感到真的很不捨，我們台電的李元瀚同仁也確實讓人很感心，為了要幫助復電，結果自己受了重傷，被送到奇美醫院治療，部長也去關心了好幾次，其實大家都替他感到不捨之外，我們也希望他們的家人能夠繼續……"],["邱部長泰源：我們希望替他集氣。"],["王委員正旭：是，這部分真的很需要大家來幫忙。今天要談的是兩個強化，第一個就是要怎麼樣針對災變的量能來強化弱勢安置，第二個強化就是之前有跟你請教過的，疫苗配套部分要怎麼強化基層參與，今天就針對這兩個部分再來跟部長討論一下。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：有關災情變化的部分，其實部長也已經強調過好幾次，針對穩醫療、查災損、顧安置都有很完整的處理方法，這部分是不是利用這個時間，麻煩部長再跟大家做比較完整的報告，讓大家參考，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我先用這次丹娜絲風災的例子來看衛福部緊急應變的制度，第一個，一開始我們的緊急醫療管理系統當然就要開案了，這樣才能知道各地方傷患的收治情況。第二個，本部有六區，我們臺灣有六區的區域緊急醫療應變中心，各個應變中心就會去看當地緊急醫療救護系統啟動的情況，以及急救責任醫院的運作狀況。因為這一次是風災，我們擔心會有淹水的情況，就如剛剛許委員提到的，所以針對弱勢的病人，我們跟所有縣市的衛生局都有一直在互動，希望把他們移到安全的地方，特別是洗腎患者及孕產婦的撤離，這個都有落實，而且這個是每8小時可能就要在應變中心裡面報告這樣一個移動的情況，以及整個總情況。","當然，如果有更特別的災變發生，我們除了啟動這個部分以外，我們也會動員到全國醫療院所的資源。另外就是社工方面，在收容安置部分也會有完整的規劃，包括各個救濟站，怎麼樣利用學校、怎麼樣利用衛生所等等，這個我們都有周密的機制在規劃。"],["王委員正旭：是，其實大家也知道臺灣真的每一年受到颱風的影響很大，至少一年平均有3.2個颱風會侵襲臺灣，每一次颱風來襲之前，不管中央或地方都會開設應變中心來做一些安排，也看到這一次的確透過了這樣的安排得到很好的照護模式，當然還是有很多部分持續要加強啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：剛才部長有跟我們說明，很多都是經過事前的安排處置，所以也的確發揮它的量能還有互相幫助的成果。不過我們也知道，這個安置到底有沒有制度上的忽略，這個就是剛剛部長有提到，我們有看到一些新聞媒體的報導，他說你們家還有房子，屋頂還在，就不用通知他們安置，所以很顯然就是我們的制度上需要再補強。","當然，透過這一次這麼大的風災傷害的影響，我們知道還是有很多需要再檢討的地方，所以不是我們通知到他就表示照顧到他的安全，通知跟照顧其實還是有一些落差。尤其現在不管是偏鄉或者是非偏鄉，有一些弱勢的失能、失智的長者，要特別思考如何讓他們知道。我們之前都說我會跟你通知去哪裡，問題是很多通知都是臨時性的，這些人是否通知得到？這個就是未來，我們希望透過這一次風災造成的影響，在制度上是不是需要再重新檢討，同時來補強。","不管是事前通知也好，或者是失聯的應變機制也好，還有偏鄉弱勢失能長者的保護機制也好，我不知道我們現在如果在檢討的時候，會包括哪幾個部分？包括剛剛有委員提到，在家裡他需要呼吸器的，還有他可能在家裡需要洗腎的，如果沒有電、沒有水，這個要怎麼幫忙他，事先要怎麼安排，這個應該都要事先就有機制。","不管是中央要出指引，由地方來執行，過程當中碰到的問題，還有中央能不能夠建立，就是請中央這邊就開始建立，當出現天災的時候，應該有完整的這些弱勢民眾的安置名冊。你首先要知道哪裡有什麼人，他住在哪裡，他如果需要安置，要安置去什麼地方，這個都要有一個整體的配套。這樣就不會說發生問題再開始通知，然後通知也不知道我們的通知有沒有辦法處理，這部分是不是可以請部長做相關的研議，或者是在執行上，將來要怎麼來做應變的部分？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的垂詢，當然我們各縣市衛生局或社政都有一定的、非常布置到相當周全的一個照顧，這中間一旦發生變化的話，無論是電話打不通，或者是說因為人力的限制，這個部分的確如果能夠在造冊上更加的周全，包括獨居老人這部分，有時候也要注意這樣的情況。謝謝委員，我們會再來檢討這個工作，讓它更加落實。"],["王委員正旭：好。因為這個包括衛生、社政，還有包括地方衛生局、鄰里長，如果有這個名冊出來，當然他們在做事情的時候就更好做。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：第二項就是有關疫苗配套的部分，上一次也有麻煩部長開始研議相關的，不管是中央或地方來提供疫苗冷鏈配送服務，這部分相信部長應該會開始做相關措施的研討。不過今天要跟你請教的就是，我們知道目前有一些疫苗如果出現毀損的話，可能就需要賠償，尤其是公費疫苗。","我們再看到113年，一共有699件公費疫苗毀損的賠償案件。在賠償的原因裡面，有幾個部分其實可以透過一些制度上或是好的設計模式來減少相關的錯誤，包括重複接種、接種間隔時間不足還有施打於非計畫實施對象，這699件裡面就有416件其實是可以透過好的資料串接來解決的。你們的資料如果串接得好，怎麼可能一個人去接種兩次？也不可能讓非計畫實施對象來接種，這個根本不應該讓它發生，這部分不知道我們有什麼好的辦法，讓資料的串接，不管是透過現有的健保資料庫也好，或者是目前疾管署的資料裡面，要讓它串接得好一點，不要讓這樣的錯誤重複發生。部長這邊有什麼好辦法嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我也當過很久的醫師公會，包括臺北市醫師公會的理事長，我覺得我也聽到很多的醫院，特別是診所，在資料上介接的必要性。其實衛福部疾管署從110年已經全面推動合約醫療院所，運用API介接模式串聯HIS與NIS等系統，就是醫療院所資訊系統跟全國預防接種資訊管理系統的自動交換、查詢跟核對、修正。到113年，全國已經有3,200家有效的參與，可以在24小時裡面完成資料的上傳，降低了70%以上的接種誤失，我想我們會讓這個部分一直在進步。"],["王委員正旭：好，如果這部分可以進步，起碼就可以減少這方面的困擾，也避免我們基層診所在參與的時候，不僅付出他的勞力還要被扣款，甚至還要因為這樣而受到處罰。"],["邱部長泰源：我想也拜託各縣市的醫師公會了解一下，如果會員有困難，跟當地的縣市衛生局，縣市衛生局其實都很熱心來幫忙處理……"],["王委員正旭：是。你看……"],["邱部長泰源：跟我們疾管署這邊一起來解決。"],["王委員正旭：好。這699件要照原價賠償，你們標註的賠償金額是四百多萬，699件要賠償四百多萬，表示有些賠償可能有可以再討論的地方。我們現在只分兩種，一種是無須賠償，不然就是要原價賠償，其中應該有一個可能說，什麼情形之下你要照價賠償；什麼情形你就只需要賠償一半或者是幾個百分比，這部分可能也要麻煩是不是部裡面來處理？"],["邱部長泰源：好。好的、好的、好的。"],["王委員正旭：最後，針對改善疫苗配套強化基層參與這部分有三點，就是冷鏈配送，還有有效的資料串接以及合理的疫苗處置費。我們也知道其實基層很辛苦，注射一劑100塊，事實上成本是四百多塊。如何能夠讓參與者，包括基層診所，可以用心而且能夠努力的來參與，是不是可以一個月內提供一份書面報告……"],["邱部長泰源：好，這幾點我們都會來努力，而且會在一個月內提出書面報告。"],["王委員正旭：好，再麻煩你，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","你的意思是疫苗要自己保管，颱風停電導致疫苗失效要再賠錢，看衛福部能不能專案給我們……那個實在有夠「衰」啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝召委還有王委員，我想這個部分我們來了解，如果有天災的話，我們會給他無須賠償，疾管署說無須賠償……"],["主席：無須賠償？這樣好……"],["邱部長泰源：對，不需要。"],["主席：這樣可以、這樣可以。好，謝謝、謝謝部長。","來，最後一個陳瑩。快一點喔，要結束了，要萬安演習了啦。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163193","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163193","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b98578446f7671fe8b6427e529aa6299d4c22bf5d88cf2e24a70ec59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:17:33 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謝謝主席 本席有請邱部長"},{"start":14.085,"end":42.152,"text":"委員好邱部長好辛苦了我們今天要特別來跟您談有關台美關稅談判所以台灣食品安全的相關影響那首先我想國人非常非常關心的就是有關我們在這一次的台美關稅談判中部長可不可以明確的來跟我們國人承諾"},{"start":43.092,"end":60.992,"text":"在整個的談判中我們不會放寬有關美豬或美牛含瘦肉精萊克多巴胺的標準不會放寬標準以及標示義務可不可以明確的來跟我們國人承諾"},{"start":62.938,"end":90.233,"text":"我想我們報告委員因為這個食安這個是絕對是我們衛福部要堅守的那食安的一個根據是在哪裡就是在一個科學的分析科學的根據還有依照國際的規範所以這個部分這是我們衛福部在堅守的那自己在談台美關稅的一個談判是不是有去接觸到這個部分談得怎麼樣因為他還在談"},{"start":91.554,"end":116.725,"text":"但是我們應該有我們的立場我相信我們談的成員一定很清楚一定很清楚我們跟我們衛福部一樣的一個立場你們有溝通過嗎?您跟我們代表談判的談判官代表台灣的你們有溝通過這塊嗎?應該是非常了解到我們國人的需求當然也要看看國家的發展"},{"start":119.066,"end":136.161,"text":"國人的需求 食安的堅持因為他們很辛苦在堅持這幾個原則我覺得全國的民眾應該要支持這些談判的人在這幾個原則之下真的費盡了老金從國家的立場和食安的立場"},{"start":137.222,"end":162.534,"text":"那個因為我時間也有限我知道您會特別提這個國際標準就是國際還有科學數據那首先第一個您剛剛提到的我們要支持我們代表國家我們大家全國一體嘛那我們認同但是整個台美談判過程你看我們台積電先走了一步然後接著我們整個的關稅"},{"start":164.015,"end":179.591,"text":"稅率會多少目前還沒公佈但是我們民眾最基本最卑微的要求就是我們不能賠償去食安我們人民的健康還是最基本的所以您既然談到這個科學數據那我想世界各國"},{"start":180.672,"end":194.157,"text":"我們有關這個瘦肉精萊克多巴胺的標準大部分都是還是在0.01ppm以下所以這一次的談判我們希望我們整個的標準不要放寬您可不可以具體承諾"},{"start":196.423,"end":201.346,"text":"有關於訂定標準的部分對於全世界對於收入金的和國際的規範的確如您所言會有一些些的差異的存在"},{"start":213.832,"end":227.084,"text":"那但是不管是差異在哪裡都我們會回歸到我們的市民安全風險分析科學的基礎我們必須要針對我們的飲食對嘛 我們目前是0.01ppm 肌肉的部分然後內臟是0.04嘛"},{"start":229.446,"end":250.984,"text":"我的意思就是說經過這一次的台美關稅的談判我們不要放寬不可以再放寬了可以嗎其實我是希望部長承諾因為部長你都是你去開行政院會還有跟我們包括我們可能代表的副院長所以我們還是希望衛福部的立場就是要堅守"},{"start":252.725,"end":278.604,"text":"對 針對這部分的話我特別提一下因為的確如院長 如部長剛才提到的因為談判的過程中在最後的 應該是在最後抽傷的階段那麼你看到新聞其實有三次的實體的談也有在媒體上其實有一部分的資訊大家因為它本身是所謂原始的國家所謂的National Trade貿易的評估美國所以公開的有很多的議題"},{"start":279.625,"end":296.137,"text":"那這個議題裡面我們針對這個談判的過程其實是不是在這邊我們要的是部長其實您的立場也讓我們民眾安心嘛我們要堅持標準不放寬還有我們的標示也不可以放寬"},{"start":297.84,"end":320.891,"text":"就是有關國內標示的義務也不要放寬還是跟委員報告我們食安一定是按照我們國委的習慣還有科學的分析還有一定是符合安全的規範這個是一定要堅持的然後再來因為台灣人跟美國人的飲食習慣不一樣他們不吃內臟我們台灣人很多人吃內臟所以"},{"start":323.213,"end":332.126,"text":"內臟又是殘存量特高的所以我還要特別強調因為這些民眾的期待我們希望衛福部替民眾把關"},{"start":333.883,"end":359.929,"text":"是的我們一定替民眾在食安的一個把關所以我們希望不知道也許聽說是8月1號整個公布的時候我們希望是不要讓民眾失望最後最後分析我們一定會保障民眾的食安健康好謝謝部長我們替民眾把關我們也全力挺您好那最後我想用一點點的時間就是近期國內的缺藥問題頻傳"},{"start":361.969,"end":387.716,"text":"那新補充錠長期缺貨短效型的胰島素供應也告急民眾用藥權益受損所以很多基層的藥師和專家都呼籲政府要積極備戰所以本席想請問衛福部是否已盤點國內必要藥品的供應現況是否還有對於單一來源或全數仰賴進口的藥品有沒有具體的應對計畫"},{"start":389.176,"end":404.084,"text":"是的我想我們國內的兩個方面一個是缺藥的一個機制因為剛剛您提的譬如說是短效性的胰島素這個都是必要的一個藥品所以它的缺藥的一個機制以及通知以及它的儲存我們都有這樣的機制"},{"start":405.646,"end":421.816,"text":"這個都有盤點第二個就是說我們還是要長年來講推動整個藥品的改革包括支持新藥在地的製造鼓勵國產的學名藥這兩個部分都是增加我們醫藥醫材韌性很重要的工作"},{"start":422.216,"end":436.378,"text":"很好這剛好也是我的問題就是說部長是不是可以提出明確的時程您剛剛講我們可以鼓勵我們國內藥廠自製一些關鍵藥品降低對進口的依賴有沒有明確的時程"},{"start":441.724,"end":467.101,"text":"市長報委員這邊在食藥署對這個規劃其實非常積極的在進行那這個整個計畫在2月就任以來其實對於學名藥廠原料藥廠及國內外的剛才提到的生物理事的用藥的藥廠都進一步的召集很多的相次委員非常精準的提到我們現在必須要建立更強的一個韌性方向那如果我們有更進一步的時間積極的在這邊辦理"},{"start":469.723,"end":479.192,"text":"應該要有明確的時程嘛我們有個目標有個時程才可以去依據來推動所以是不是會後提供給我們好嗎好的 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 徐委員 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1202,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時17分）謝謝主席，本席有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：邱部長好，辛苦了！我今天要特別來跟您談有關臺美關稅談判對臺灣食品安全的相關影響，首先，我想國人非常非常關心的，就是在這一次的臺美關稅談判中，部長可不可以明確地跟我們國人承諾，在整個的談判中，我們不會放寬有關美豬或美牛含瘦肉精萊克多巴胺的標準及標示義務，可不可以明確地來跟我們國人承諾？"],["邱部長泰源：好，報告委員，因為食安絕對是我們衛福部要堅守的，食安的標準在哪裡？就是以科學的分析為根據，還有依照國際的規範，所以這個部分是我們衛福部在堅守的。至於臺美關稅的談判是不是有去接觸到這個部分，以及談得怎麼樣，因為還在談，但是我們相信……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我們應該有我們的立場。"],["邱部長泰源：我相信我們談判的成員一定很清楚，而且也會跟我們衛福部一樣的立場。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有溝通過嗎？您跟代表臺灣去談判的談判官有溝通過這一塊嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想他們應該是非常了解我們國人的需求，當然也要看看國家的發展、國人的需求，以及對食安的堅持，他們很辛苦在堅持這幾個原則，我覺得全國的民眾應該要支持這些去談判的人，在這幾個原則之下，真的費盡了腦筋，從國家的立場、從食安的立場……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，部長，可以了，因為我的時間也有限，我知道您會特別提國際標準還有科學數據。首先第一個，您剛剛提到的，我們要支持代表國家去談判的人，我們大家全國一體嘛，這個我們認同，但是整個臺美談判的過程，你看我們台積電先走了一步，然後我們整個的關稅稅率會是多少目前還沒公布，但是我們民眾最基本、最卑微的要求就是我們不能賠進食安，我們人民的健康還是最基本的，所以您既然談到科學數據，我想世界各國有關瘦肉精萊克多巴胺的標準，大部分都還是在0.01ppm以下，所以這一次的談判，我們希望我們整個標準可以不要放寬，您可不可以具體承諾？"],["邱部長泰源：這個請食藥署署長來說明。"],["姜署長至剛：委員，你好。有關於訂定標準的部分，全世界對於瘦肉精的國際規範，的確如您所言，會有一些些差異的存在，但是不管差異在哪裡，我們都會回歸到我們的食品安全風險分析，科學的基礎，我們必須要針對我們的飲食習慣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛，我們目前對肌肉部分的容許量是0.01ppm，然後內臟部分的容許量是0.04嘛，我的意思就是說，這一次的臺美關稅談判，我們不要放寬，不可以再放寬了，可以嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：因為在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：其實我是希望部長承諾，因為部長，都是你去開行政院院會，還有包括我們可能代表的副院長，所以我們還是希望衛福部的立場就是要堅守。"],["姜署長至剛：對，針對這個部分，我特別提一下，因為的確如部長剛才提到的，在談判的過程中，應該是在最後磋商的階段，我們也看到新聞，其實有三次實體的談，也有在媒體上……其實有一部分的資訊，因為它本身是所謂原始的國家、所謂national trade貿易的評估，所以有很多公開的議題，在這個議題裡面，我們針對談判的過程，其實不是在這邊可以跟委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們要的是部長的承諾，因為您的立場也讓我們民眾安心嘛！我們要堅持標準不放寬，還有我們的標示也不可以放寬，就是有關國內標示的義務也不要放寬。"],["邱部長泰源：還是跟委員報告，我們的食安一定是按照我們國人的習慣以及科學的分析，還有一定是符合安全的規範，這個是一定要堅持的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，因為臺灣人跟美國人的飲食習慣不一樣，他們不吃內臟，我們臺灣很多人吃內臟，而內臟又是殘存量特高的，所以我還是要特別強調，因為這是民眾的期待，我們希望衛福部能替民眾把關。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我們一定替民眾在食安方面做好把關。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們希望，不知道，聽說也許是8月1號，整個公布的時候，我們希望不要讓民眾失望。","最後，本席……"],["邱部長泰源：你放心，我們一定會保障民眾的食安健康。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝部長，你們替民眾把關，我們也全力挺您。","最後，我想用一點點的時間，近期國內缺藥的問題頻傳，鋅補充錠長期缺貨，短效型的胰島素供應也告急，民眾用藥權益受損，所以很多基層的藥師和專家都呼籲政府要積極備戰，本席想請問衛福部是否已盤點國內必要藥品的供應現況？還有，對於單一來源或全數仰賴進口的藥品，有沒有具體的應對計畫？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我們國內有兩個方面，一個是缺藥的機制，誠如剛剛您提到的，比如短效性的胰島素，這個都是必要的藥品，所以相關缺藥的機制、通知以及貯存，我們都有一定的機制……"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經盤點了嗎？都有？"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個都有盤點。第二個就是說，以長遠來講，我們還是要推動整個藥品的改革，包括支持新藥在地的製造，鼓勵國產的學名藥，這兩個部分都是增加我們醫藥醫材韌性很重要的工作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好，這剛好也是我的問題，部長是不是可以提出明確的時程？您剛剛講，我們可以鼓勵國內藥廠自製一些關鍵藥品，降低對進口的依賴，有沒有明確的時程？"],["邱部長泰源：我請署長說明。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，食藥署對這個部分的規劃其實是非常積極的在進行，整個計畫從2月我就任以來，對於學名藥廠、原料藥廠，及國內外剛才提到的生物擬似用藥的藥廠，都進一步的召集，很多的項次委員非常精準的提到了，我們現在必須要建立更強韌性的方向，這個部分容我們有更進一步的時間去積極地辦理。謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：應該要有明確的時程嘛！我們有個目標、有個時程，才可以有依據的去推動，所以是不是會後提供給我們，好嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：好的，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝部長及署長。","接續我們請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163192","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857bf50f3dff87921767e529aa6299d4c22bf5d88cf2e24a70e8dd520d2c11f20995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"12:10:50 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我們請衛福部邱部長還有勞動部理事長"},{"start":11.637,"end":36.336,"text":"委員好還有次長好利用這個機會跟部長說明一下普發現金是利用超徵的稅收還稅於民所以並不會排擠到所謂的衛福跟社會這個社會福利方面的支出所以我想剛剛這個部分我必須要在這邊說明一下另外想請教一下就是從7月7號的丹納斯颱風侵襲全台造成"},{"start":37.036,"end":57.531,"text":"雲林台南嘉義縣市大概有超過百萬戶的用電停電那雖然台電有派出大量的人力附電真的也非常的辛苦但是因為過了11天目前還是最新的數據是還有500多戶還沒附電那我先請教一下李次長如果有政府的高層"},{"start":58.532,"end":74.134,"text":"期許導致員工有效有搶休的一個時效跟壓力造成台電員工操時跟過勞或是防護的措施不夠完善因而發生意外這個責任誰要來負責是台電公司還是政府高層"},{"start":75.728,"end":93.48,"text":"跟委員說明台電公司這一次他們都有依照勞基法32條還有40條一規定跟地方政府勞工局來做那個加班計畫的報備然後來備查所以這個在勞基法的法規上是完全合法的"},{"start":94.02,"end":112.916,"text":"那請問一下就是目前也有因為很多台電的員工包括工會都有提出來他們有過勞的相關問題那這個部分就是當然也有一位理性員工目前還在急救當中那意外發生了之後請問是要怎麼釐清責任勞動部會不會開始進行調查"},{"start":114.338,"end":120.943,"text":"我們已經依照相關職安法的規定先請他們停工然後進行調查請他們停工然後進行調查所以是開始調查了沒"},{"start":127.7,"end":153.203,"text":"已經在進行那可能要請這個會後我們調查完備之後是不是可以送交本委員會還有本席這邊來瞭解狀況那我剛剛為什麼要說這樣呢是因為7月9號的時候卓榮泰院長前往嘉義縣視察停電然後要拚9日夜間復電7月11號賴清德總統郭智慧部長前往台南市視察台電"},{"start":154.163,"end":178.781,"text":"搶修的狀況他們現場說天黑前要全部送電好 請問次長你認為台電會不會有復電的壓力我想復電是全民全社會的共同期待那台電員工也非常努力在幫助這些地區的民眾台電非常的用心我們知道但是如果高層施壓的話你覺得會不會有這樣子的一個復電的壓力"},{"start":180.302,"end":199.477,"text":"我想這個壓力應該是台電的員工他們從上到下都攜帶趕快幫民眾來復電他們本身在總統院長之前就非常努力了市長你不要因為是卓榮泰院長跟賴清德總統或部長你就不敢說真話事實上一定會有壓力的我剛剛是在表達我真心的話"},{"start":199.977,"end":227.997,"text":"是我也是表達我真心的話我覺得今天總統這個院長都說什麼這個總統在11號說天黑前全部要送電你覺得基層會不會有壓力一定會有所以在這個部分我想台電面對這個要加速附電的壓力所以導致有員工這個發生病危的這個事故然後像李姓員工他的爸爸就指出搶修的時候還要還繼續通電"},{"start":229.858,"end":253.075,"text":"所以沒有在最安全的狀況之下而造成這樣一個憾事所以勞動部有沒有針對這個部分提出調查對 剛已經跟委員說明我們已經正在調查中就是也是針對這個案子就對了好 那是針對這個部分可能希望就是能盡快的釐清這樣的事故那另外請教部長就是針對這一次的颱風我們剛剛提到就還有到現在11天還有500多戶還沒有復點"},{"start":255.276,"end":274.546,"text":"所以很多重症的病患会依赖呼吸器抽痰器这些重症病患所以在台南就有发生了两起呼吸器病患因为停电无法使用设备而宣告不治的案例请问一下部长就是当前的灾害应变的体系是不是有把这个仰赖电力维生的人纳入核心保护的对象"},{"start":275.582,"end":299.275,"text":"是的我們對於在災難產生的時候我們就會動員六區的一個緊急應變中心來做好醫療的一個整備同時我們會被比較可能可能會受災的區域他們的弱勢團體來希望移動那像產婦洗腎的這些都是在我們的衛生局一定要把它移動那請問這個有照冊嗎"},{"start":303.59,"end":327.437,"text":"就是你是不是也可以先建立一個高風險的醫療戶的名冊而不是被動的說當發生事情的時候好某些地方可以做這樣的事情可是事實上你都可以先列冊然後針對這些不管是小呼吸器或這個抽痰器他們需要的這些用戶他們就可以馬上先提供他們的這樣的援助不要讓電力中斷我想衛生局他其實都"},{"start":329.238,"end":338.469,"text":"應該是算比中央更清楚所以我們都會跟衛生局來討論那有沒有列車呢就我所知目前是沒有可能我們現在的重點是比較"},{"start":341.373,"end":369.79,"text":"比較適合於偏鄉的一個孕婦洗腎的啦那至於說在家裡居家照顧的這個部分我想我們未來因為像這次停電已經11天了所以說針對這樣子在家裡需要呼吸器的這些病人他本來不需要因為這樣子一個颱風就真的命喪黃泉而是真正如果我們盡快的附電給他有幾個這個所謂的高風險的醫療戶的部分我們盡快的附電給他就可能不會發生這樣"},{"start":370.47,"end":370.83,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1160,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（12時10分）謝謝主席，我們請衛福部邱部長及勞動部李次長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好、次長好。利用這個機會跟部長說明一下，普發現金是利用超徵的稅收還稅於民，所以並不會排擠到所謂衛福跟社會福利方面的支出，對於剛剛提到的這個部分，我必須要在這邊說明一下。","另外想請教一下，7月7號丹娜絲颱風侵襲全臺，造成雲林、臺南、嘉義縣市大概有超過百萬戶的用戶停電，雖然台電有派出大量的人力復電，真的也非常的辛苦，但是已經過了11天，到目前最新的數據是還有五百多戶還沒復電。我先請教一下李次長，如果因為政府高層的期許，導致員工有搶修的時效跟壓力，造成台電員工超時跟過勞，或是防護措施不夠完善因而發生意外，這個責任誰要來負責？是台電公司還是政府高層？"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，台電公司這一次都有依照勞基法第三十二條及第四十條的規定，跟地方政府勞工局來做加班計畫的報備，然後備查，所以這個在勞基法的法規上是完全合法的。"],["許委員宇甄：那請問一下，目前有很多台電員工，包括工會都有提出來他們有過勞的相關問題，這個部分就是……有一個李姓員工目前還在急救當中，意外發生了之後，請問是要怎麼釐清責任？勞動部會不會開始進行調查？"],["李次長健鴻：我們已經依照相關職安法的規定先請他們……"],["許委員宇甄：開始進行調查了，是嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：先請他們停工，然後進行調查中。"],["許委員宇甄：請他們停工，然後進行調查，所以是開始調查了沒？"],["李次長健鴻：已經在進行。"],["許委員宇甄：已經在進行？好，可能要請你們在調查完畢之後將結果送交本委員會及本席這邊來了解狀況。"],["李次長健鴻：是，沒有問題。"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛為什麼要說這樣呢？是因為7月9號卓榮泰院長前往嘉義縣視察停電，然後要拚9日夜間復電；7月11號賴清德總統、郭智輝部長前往臺南市視察台電搶修的狀況，他們現場說天黑前要全部送電。請問次長，你認為台電會不會有復電的壓力？"],["李次長健鴻：我想復電是全民、全社會的共同期待，台電員工也非常努力在幫助這些地區的民眾……"],["許委員宇甄：台電非常的用心我們知道，但是如果高層施壓的話，你覺得他們會不會有復電的壓力？"],["李次長健鴻：我想這個壓力應該是台電員工從上到下都期待趕快幫民眾來復電，他們本身在總統、院長視察之前就非常努力了。"],["許委員宇甄：次長，你不要因為是卓榮泰院長跟賴清德總統或部長，你就不敢說真話，事實上，一定會有壓力的嘛！"],["李次長健鴻：我剛剛是在表達我真心的話。"],["許委員宇甄：是，我也是表達我真心的話。我覺得如果總統、院長都說話了，總統在11號說天黑前全部要送電，你覺得基層會不會有壓力？一定會有啊！在這個部分，台電面對要加速復電的壓力，所以導致有員工發生病危的事故，像李姓員工的爸爸就指出，搶修的時候還繼續通電，沒有在最安全的狀況之下而造成這樣的憾事，請問勞動部有沒有針對這個部分提出調查？"],["李次長健鴻：對，剛剛已經跟委員說明，我們正在調查中。"],["許委員宇甄：也是針對這個案子就對了？"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好，針對這個部分，希望能儘快地釐清這個事故。","另外，部長，針對這一次的颱風，我剛剛有提到，到現在已經11天了，還有五百多戶還沒有復電，但是我們有很多依賴呼吸器、抽痰器的重症病患，像是在臺南就發生了兩起呼吸器病患因為停電無法使用設備而宣告不治的案例，請問一下部長，當前的災害應變體系是不是有把仰賴電力維生的人納入核心保護的對象？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，在災難發生的時候，我們就會動員六區的緊急應變中心來做好醫療的整備，同時，我們會希望可能受災區域的弱勢團體能夠移動，像產婦、洗腎患者等，我們都請衛生局一定要把他們移走，這個都做得相當好。"],["許委員宇甄：請問這個有造冊嗎？你是不是也可以先建立一個高風險醫療戶的名冊？而不是被動的等到發生事情的時候再說某些地方可以做這樣的事情，事實上這些都可以先列冊，針對這些不管是使用呼吸器或抽痰器的患者，當他們有需要時就可以馬上先提供他們相關的援助，不要讓電力中斷。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，我想衛生局應該都算是比中央更清楚，所以我們都會跟衛生局來討論。"],["許委員宇甄：那有沒有列冊呢？就我所知目前是沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：可能我們現在的重點是比較屬於偏鄉的孕婦、洗腎患者，至於在家裡居家照顧的部分，我想我們未來會……"],["許委員宇甄：因為像這次停電已經11天了，針對在家裡需要使用呼吸器的這些病患，他本來不會因為這樣一個颱風就真的命喪黃泉，如果我們能儘快地復電給他，有幾個所謂高風險醫療戶的部分，如果我們儘快地復電給他，就可能不會發生這樣的憾事。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實醫院本身都有發電機……"],["許委員宇甄：不是，我是指在家裡的。"],["邱部長泰源：現在在家裡的，針對這樣的轉介，我們會來檢討、加強。"],["許委員宇甄：所以針對颱風的時候，是不是可以把這方面列入……"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，這個將來我們會列為重點。"],["許委員宇甄：是，請部長對於這個部分能夠真正的來落實。"],["邱部長泰源：好，一定，這個很重要。謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163191","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163191","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b98570f81d068409d4fe57e529aa6299d4c22bf5d88cf2e24a70e9bf675f76cd7c0d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:55:54 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颱風天醫院縮減服務大概是情有可願 可是有一屆人是懷疑今年的特例跟剛上路的醫院個別總額的事辦計畫是有關的所以對醫院來說恐怕會擔心就診的人數超過總額那導致點數打折 所以颱風天就乾脆就"},{"start":82.455,"end":107.336,"text":"所以想問部長說如果這是事實的話那就是一個很嚴重的警訊所以請部長針對媒體提出來的疑問做回應好 謝謝委員的垂行跟關心我們在颱風天或者一般時候的一個醫療的運作那像張基總院陳木寬院長所提的要信諾對病人的承諾我想所有的醫院的院長"},{"start":108.317,"end":133.013,"text":"都是懷抱有這樣的情懷所以不會受到幾乎是不會因為颱風天而是很故意就除了說向南部就沒水沒電那當然是沒辦法反而我們現在都要去補助他那中部這個我跟委員報告一下我們7月1號到15號也就是在風災這段期間中區分歧的"},{"start":134.134,"end":160.426,"text":"健保IC卡的上傳件數還比去年113人成長11.5%表示他們的看診並沒有受到風災的影響所以這個我相信中部的醫院應該是不質疑因為可能停班你如果停班讓你去外面來就變成假班所以那可能有些"},{"start":161.627,"end":166.852,"text":"現在颱風天上班也不好,基層的醫護也是非常重視這個醫院也很重視安全,所以現在都有颱風天上班的規定所以我們在安全的經營之下"},{"start":179.813,"end":192.393,"text":"其實便宜也都只能在運作除了它真的被因為台灣現在風險也比較高隨時又有可能短時間內出現我們的大量傷患健保支付制度如果沒有妥善規劃的話影響到緊急狀況的"},{"start":195.537,"end":212.831,"text":"醫療量能的話這是民眾很擔心的事情請民眾安心我們的各位醫院總和現在運轉得很好而且也沒有發生人球的事件可是在此之前醫院個別總和制在南區就已經試辦大概實施了三年到今年一月中"},{"start":213.491,"end":229.269,"text":"一月在中区开始实施全国最晚实施的是台北区从今年的4月1号开始所以请问部长台北区最晚实施的原因是不是因为医学中心比别的地区多那需要更多的时间沟通是因为这个原因吗"},{"start":230.074,"end":256.768,"text":"是因為台北區的文化因為我在台北市也很久他們都覺得他們是要接受很嚴重的病人不能沒有後路了啦所以比較大的醫院包括台大籠總他會覺得說他們有先天的使命所以他們很擔心這樣的一個是不是影響到他們照顧病人結果我們溝通以後他們也發現說如果讓我們的這樣一個一定的"},{"start":258.318,"end":287.26,"text":"總而之下也根本也有一些剛性需求的話也不受影響需要的集中症那個都不受影響另外也可以把一些比較輕症的病人能夠盡量在分級醫療的理念之下放給那個比較屬於中小型或地區的醫院這樣反而形成一個良好的一個分級醫療而且有一點點財務的控制財務控制是其實不只醫院啦也是區域都在管那是不是我們也跟他"},{"start":288.001,"end":315.467,"text":"跟他溝通就是未來的方向也要讓民眾健康促進讓整個所有的健保也要朝向讓民眾更健康那這樣的話就變成一個分級醫療以此做對人民健康最好的一個模式那以到目前來講北區也得大家應做得相當好那用醫院個別總而治來控制健保經費支出這當然直接影響到醫院門診檢查手術甚至急救"},{"start":316.247,"end":336.014,"text":"等可以收治的病人數量我們擔心醫院為了健保點數不要超過總額發生拒收重症病患的狀況所以也要請教部長說那這樣子要怎麼去避免這種狀況發生好 謝謝委員我是不是請站派署署長簡調的跟大家報告一下"},{"start":336.494,"end":351.071,"text":"跟委員報告從我們的統計來看我們在疫情前國人就醫的次數每年是15次在所有的OECD國家是非常非常的高那麼到了疫後我們從去年的數字又再往上升已經逼近17次了"},{"start":351.892,"end":369.809,"text":"所以這中間一定可以有管理的地方所以我們希望透過醫院的個別總額來強化分級醫療那麼對於慢性病的管理也好跟病人的就醫能夠有適當的一些好的管理措施那也可以讓國人得到照顧"},{"start":370.53,"end":397.744,"text":"所以急重症的部分呢我們都是在個別總和裡面呢都是保障在中區的話他們是沒有限制只要你是急重症的他都是保障成長所以不會有斷頭的情形可是中區當然我覺得目前看起來不是太我寧願已經實施三年可是民眾普遍相信台北的醫院又多又好啦所以外縣市的急重症的病患經常都會到台北區的那個教學"},{"start":398.744,"end":417.2,"text":"醫學中心來所以從圖表上可以看到是說台北區的健保點子從前年到去年增加的幅度是非常明顯的可是病人總不能都擠到台北區所以應該是就近就醫才比較好所以如果說要盡可能讓他們就近就醫的話你們的對策是什麼"},{"start":417.78,"end":433.474,"text":"跟文包我們都有在監測流入跟流出所以從這幾年這幾個我們按季按月都在監測這個台北區的流入情形並沒有增加整個比例是沒有增加那當然各地區的醫院的數量"},{"start":434.355,"end":455.638,"text":"還有這個病床數確實也有變動所以像北區或台北區北區這幾年的醫院的加速是增加病床數也增加那當然他就會影響到這個分佈的情形所以並沒有讓台北區的就醫人數有明顯的增加所以我覺得後期可以觀察因為接下來台北也要執行"},{"start":458.019,"end":472.646,"text":"中的榮總因二零二五年第一劑的健保申報的點數就超出額度那遭健保署核三了三億元那另外張基也是光總院就核三掉一點二億元這凸顯醫院在個別總額"},{"start":474.987,"end":493.347,"text":"好的上邊來看的話馬上就會面對到一些困境那健保署的說法呢事實上是健保總額執行已經行之有年的話那現行的個別醫院的總額制的是南區實施的做法那南區的經驗現在是成功的那推行到全國"},{"start":494.608,"end":521.798,"text":"我剛講台北事件4月1號執行的話那後邊到底會怎麼樣不太確定因為南區只有兩家醫學中心而且健保點子都是比較高的那一樣的制度在台北區可能會不會面對到很多問題所以想問說對醫院來說要控制健保總額要避免虧損除了要減少病患以外就是從醫護人員的薪水下手這是我們最擔心的衛福部有沒有應對的措施去解決這種可能出現的"},{"start":522.998,"end":544.291,"text":"醫護減薪然後不賬薪或是預缺不補的問題跟委員報告我們第一劑今年的第一劑跟去年的第一劑相比所有的醫院的點值都是大幅的提升以台北區為例去年醫院的點值在沒有斷頭之前那麼大概不到0.9那今年呢已經是0.93"},{"start":547.453,"end":569.787,"text":"所以比去年都是提升的那醫院的營收也都是成長的那但是相對的醫院的病床的規模並沒有明顯的增加啦在台北區而言所以我們現在正在積極的希望呢醫院把這個增加的這個收入呢那麼能夠轉化成在人員的加薪上面我們在做這個努力"},{"start":570.547,"end":596.207,"text":"所以有再去促成這件事嗎因為我們最擔心的就是這個在這個總額被限制的制度裡面門診量跟手術量大的醫生聽起來也是會不會相對被變相被處罰因為事情卻做得越多跟報酬卻無法增加那要怎麼去避免這種狀況根文報告我們都有相關的這監測那麼我剛剛也提到有一些的門診的次數確實可以減少那麼醫療人員的"},{"start":601.251,"end":624.851,"text":"這個過勞情形其實也是蠻重的所以我們希望透過好的管理也讓這個醫護人員減壓啦那至於是剛性的需求這個在我們的總額裡面都是保障的而且在明年在談總額成長的時候個別醫院總額成長的時候也會看他的人力的投入情形有沒有增加薪資的這個署長剛剛也提到南區"},{"start":625.872,"end":649.671,"text":"事實上你覺得是成功經驗可是媒體有報導說在最早開始用這個制度的時候南區就已經開始有部分醫院用降薪限制醫生門診量跟手術量還有全力鼓吹病患自費等等的方式去控制不讓醫療點數超過每劑的總額所以想問說為了避免無效醫療當我們覺得浪費資源或過度控制手術量"},{"start":650.653,"end":662.597,"text":"門診量跟檢查量是需要的 必要的一個措施在可是如果醫院為了省錢讓手術量門診量跟檢查量下降就會傷害當地區的醫療量能這個問題你們要怎麼去應對"},{"start":664.592,"end":685.332,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個我們南區先實施之後高屏區然後北區就是陸陸續續大家還跟進也就是大家互相在學習一個制度剛上路的時候難免有需要調整的地方但是經過南區先行這幾年之後那麼發現了他其實大家都"},{"start":685.973,"end":711.589,"text":"都很滿意啦所以才持續擴大到其他的各區以現在第一劑為例南區的點值超過1.1塊錢了那麼高屏區也是差不多是0.99啦所以靠近這個1啦所以相對於這個沒有實施之前來講呢那麼其實這個對醫院的營收更穩定那它更能夠做比較中長期的規劃"},{"start":713.117,"end":728.395,"text":"好 疏解醫院門診壓力的解方就是弱勢分級醫療所以為了控制總額各醫院可能把重症的病人轉出去重症病人事實上是不會往送去診所而是到各大醫院"},{"start":729.256,"end":748.549,"text":"的那個診間去轉診踢來踢去最後把被送到不能再將病人轉出去的部立醫院或者醫學中心結果導致呢部立醫院跟醫學中心負擔更大醫護工作量更大所以部長想問說你們衛福怎麼去因應病人如果被當人球轉來轉去的問題"},{"start":751.091,"end":774.846,"text":"這個我們都有監測的指標在看就是病人的轉出轉入在我們的健保系統裡面都看得非常的清楚從哪邊轉來的比例有多少這個都很清楚的指標都在而且我們剛剛也提到說在急重症的部分他是剛性需求是被保障成長的那相對的呢你這個轉診的不當轉診呢那我們就會把你調降成為用"},{"start":775.586,"end":797.401,"text":"不保障點植的方式去處理所以對醫院我們也會有一些處罰的措施不過署長寫請教一下以南區為例在個別總額以下過去三年大醫院的輕症病轉回地區醫院或診所的成效怎麼樣因為你剛剛講說我不知道你有沒有掌握這個成效"},{"start":798.82,"end":826.269,"text":"就是轉診的部分那個南區的轉診成效都是蠻好的沒有什麼問題我們再提供詳細的數字給再麻煩那最後想問因為我覺得不管天災或平時台灣醫療體系的需求越來越大政府有餘裕應該是投入社會福利或醫療體系而不是普發現金這是我的看法所以請問部長因為的確我們現在隨著需求越大的時候"},{"start":827.509,"end":838.744,"text":"那大家很遺憾的是最近立法院通過的普發現金要把兩千三百五十億發出去而不是投入我們關心的社會福利或是醫療體系對此部長有什麼看法"},{"start":839.475,"end":859.686,"text":"我想醫療體系跟社福它是一個長久的一個規劃所以如果國家有財富比較盈利的時候應該把醫療的需求符合來醫療的需求跟社福的需求這應該是會比較能夠一本多利能夠有時候要看它的"},{"start":860.866,"end":884.755,"text":"效率也許能夠創造 創造人民更多的健康 更長遠穩定的事情會創造更多的健康跟幸福最後就請我們的衛福部應該要確保我們的醫療量能然後輕重症的病患都能夠受到妥善照顧還有就要保障醫護人員的一個權益 還有落實醫療分級 以上謝謝好 謝謝林委員謝謝林委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1122,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時56分）主席，麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長午安。"],["邱部長泰源：午安。"],["林委員月琴：上禮拜一的丹娜絲颱風造成中南部很嚴重的災情，台電人員到這週都還在搶救，到7月12號上週六的中午為止，急救的責任醫院，收治緊急傷病患總計大概713人，凸顯在緊急天災時維持醫療量能的重要性。可是有媒體報導颱風期間有很多中部醫院事實上是縮減服務，有的甚至停止門診，這個情形在過去不太明顯，不過本席認為，為了維護醫療人員的安全，颱風天醫院縮減服務是情有可原，但有醫界人士懷疑，今年的特例跟剛上路的醫院個別總額制的試辦計畫有關，對醫院來說，恐怕會擔心就診人數超過總額，導致點數打折，所以颱風天就乾脆停診了。想問部長，如果這個是事實的話，那就是一個很嚴重的警訊，請部長針對媒體提出來的疑問做回應。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的垂詢跟關心我們在颱風天或者一般時候的醫療運作。彰基總院陳穆寬院長所提：要信守對病人的承諾。我想所有醫院的院長都是懷抱這樣的情懷，幾乎不會因為颱風天而故意……除非像南部沒水、沒電，那當然就沒辦法，反而我們現在都要去補助他們。","我跟委員報告一下，7月1號到15號，也就是風災這段期間，中區分局健保IC卡上傳的件數還比去年113人成長11.5%，表示病患看診並沒有受到風災的影響，所以我相信中部的醫院應該是不至於……如果停班，護理人員來就變成加班，可能有些因為風大……現在颱風天上班也不太好，現在基層醫護也非常重視這個，醫院也很重視安全，所以現在都在研議颱風天上班的規定……"],["林委員月琴：對，因為颱風……"],["邱部長泰源：在安全的情形之下，其實醫院也都儘量在運作，除非它真的被停電、停水。"],["林委員月琴：因為臺灣天災風險也比較高，隨時又有可能短時間內出現大量傷患，健保支付制度如果沒有妥善規劃，影響到緊急狀況的醫療量能的話，這是民眾很擔心的事情。"],["邱部長泰源：請民眾安心，現在我們各個醫院都運轉得很好，而且也沒有發生人球的事件。"],["林委員月琴：可是在此之前，醫院個別總額制在南區大概就已經實施了3年，今年1月在中區開始實施，全國最晚實施的是臺北區，是從今年的4月1號開始。請問部長，臺北區最晚實施的原因是不是因為醫學中心比別的地區多，因此需要更多的時間溝通，是因為這個原因嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是，因為臺北區的文化，我在臺北區也很久了，他們都覺得他們要接受很嚴重的病人，他們沒有後路了，所以比較大的醫院，像臺大、榮總會覺得有先天的使命在，因此很擔心這樣是不是會影響到他們照顧病人？溝通以後他們也發現，如果在一定的總額之下，即使有剛性需求、需要的急重症都不受影響。此外，在分級醫療的理念下，可以把一些比較輕症的病人放給中小型或地區醫院，這樣反而可以形成良好的分級醫療制度，且有一點點的財務控制。其實需要財務控制的不只醫院，整個區域都在管控範圍，所以我們也跟他們溝通，未來除了促進民眾健康外，健保也要朝讓民眾更健康的方向去改進，如此就可以形成分級醫療，這是對人民健康最好的模式。就目前來講，北區運作得相當順利。"],["林委員月琴：以醫院個別總額制來控制健保經費支出，當然會直接影響到醫院門診的檢查、手術，甚至急救等可以收治的病人數量。我們擔心醫院為了不讓健保點數超過總額，從而拒收重症病患，所以本席要請教部長，該如何避免這種狀況發生？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。是不是請健保署署長簡要向大家報告一下？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，從我們的統計來看，疫情前國人就醫的次數每年是15次，這在OECD國家中來說非常非常的高。到了疫後，去年的數字又再往上升，已經逼近17次，所以中間一定有可以管理的地方。因此，我們希望透過醫院的個別總額來強化分級醫療，這樣不論對慢性病的管理或病人的就醫，都能有適當且好的管理措施，同時可以讓國人得到照顧。所以在急重症的部分，我們都在個別總額裡保障！至於中區是沒有限制的，只要是急重症的都保障成長，不會有斷頭的情形發生。"],["林委員月琴：目前看起來，中區不太有問題，因為已經實施三年。可是民眾普遍相信臺北的醫院又多又好，所以外縣市的急重症病患經常到臺北區的教學醫學中心就診，從圖表上可以看到，臺北區的健保點值從前年到去年所增加的幅度非常明顯，但總不能讓病人都擠到臺北區，應該是就近就醫比較好。如果要儘可能讓病人就近就醫的話，您的對策是什麼？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們都有在監測流入跟流出。這幾年我們按季按月在監測，我們發現臺北區的流入情形並沒有增加，就整個比例來說並沒有增加。當然，各地區醫院的數量還有病床數確實有變動，像北區或臺北區來說，北區這幾年的醫院家數是增加的，病床數也增加，這就會影響到分布，不過臺北區的就醫人數並沒有明顯增加。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得後期可以再觀察，因為接下來臺北區也要執行了。臺中榮總在2025年第一季的健保申報點數就超出額度，遭健保署核刪了3億元；另外，彰基總院也核刪掉1.2億元，凸顯醫院在個別總額上會立即面臨困境。依據健保署的說法來看，健保總額執行已行之有年，而現行個別醫院總額制則是南區所實施的作法。現在南區的經驗是成功的，打算推行到全國。我剛剛有講，臺北市從4月1日開始執行，後續到底會怎麼樣？其實還不太確定。畢竟南區只有兩家醫學中心，且其健保點值都是比較高的，所以一樣的制度到了臺北區會不會面臨很多問題？為此本席想問，對醫院來說，要控制健保總額、避免虧損，除了減少病患外，就是從醫護人員的薪水下手，這是我們最擔心的！請問衛福部有沒有應對措施，以解決這種可能出現的醫護減薪、不漲薪或遇缺不補的問題？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們今年的第一季跟去年第一季相比，所有醫院的點值都大幅提升！以臺北區為例，去年醫院點值在沒有斷頭之前大概不到0.9，但今年已經達到0.93，較去年提升，而醫院的營收也都是成長的。但相對來說，臺北區的醫院病床規模並沒有明顯增加，所以我們積極希望醫院能把所增加的收入轉化在人員的加薪上，我們正在做這個努力。"],["林委員月琴：所以有去促成這件事？"],["石署長崇良：有。"],["林委員月琴：這是我們最擔心的！再者，在限制總額的制度裡，門診量與手術量大的醫生會不會被變相處罰？因為事情做得越多，報酬卻無法增加，所以該怎麼去避免這種狀況？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們都有做相關的監測。我剛剛也提到，有些門診次數確實可以減少。再者，醫療人員過勞其實也嚴重的，所以我們希望可以透過好的管理來讓醫護人員減壓。至於剛性需求，我們在總額裡面都有保障，且明年在總額成長，在個別醫院總額的成長上，也會看人力的投入有沒有增加薪資的……"],["林委員月琴：署長，我剛才有提到南區，署長覺得南區是成功的經驗，可是媒體卻報導說，最早開始實施該制度時，南區就已經有部分醫院降薪，並限制醫生的門診量跟手術量！還有，全力鼓吹病患自費等等的方式去控制，不讓醫療點數超過每季總額。所以我想請問，為了避免無效醫療，當然，減少浪費資源或控制手術量、門診量與檢查量是必要措施，但如果醫院為了省錢，讓手術量、門診量跟檢查量下降，就會傷害當地區的醫療量能！這個問題你們要怎麼去應對？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們從南區先實施，之後是高屏區，然後北區，即陸陸續續跟進，大家互相學習。一個制度剛上路時，難免有需要調整的地方，但這幾年經過南區先行後，我們發現大家都很滿意，所以才持續擴大到其他各區。以第一季為例，南區的點值超過1.1元，高屏區則差不多是0.989，接近1元，相對於沒有實施之前，其實讓醫院的營收更穩定，也更能夠做比較中長期的規劃。"],["林委員月琴：我想紓解醫院門診壓力的解方就是落實分級醫療，為了控制總額，各醫院可能會把重症病人轉出去。但事實上，重症病人並不會送往診所，所以其實是在各大醫院的診間轉診，踢來踢去，最後送到不能再將病人轉出去的部立醫院或醫學中心，導致部立醫院跟醫學中心負擔更大，醫護工作量更大！請問部長，對於病人被當成人球轉來轉去，衛福部要怎麼因應？"],["石署長崇良：我們有在看監測指標，也就是病人的轉出轉入在健保系統裡都看得非常清楚，譬如從哪邊轉來的？比例有多少？這些都有很清楚的指標。而且剛剛也有提到，急重症部分屬剛性需求，是被保障成長的，但相對的，如果不當轉診，那麼我們就會調降成不保障點值的方式去處理，所以對醫院也會有一些處罰措施，不會讓病人成為人球。"],["林委員月琴：以南區為例，在個別總額底下，過去三年大醫院輕症病人轉回地區醫院或診所的成效怎麼樣？不知道你們有沒有掌握到成效？"],["石署長崇良：以轉診來說，南區轉診成效都蠻好的，沒有什麼問題，我們再提供詳細的數字給委員參考。"],["林委員月琴：再麻煩。最後想問，不管天災或平時，臺灣醫療體系的需求越來越大，若政府有餘裕，應該要投入社會福利或醫療體系，而不是普發現金，這是我的看法。在隨著需求越大之際，很遺憾的最近立法院通過普發現金，要把2,350億發出去，而不是投入我很關心的社會福利或醫療體系。對此，部長有什麼看法？"],["邱部長泰源：我想醫療體系跟社福是一個長久的規劃，所以國家財務如果比較盈餘的時候，能夠先照顧醫療的需求跟社福的需求，這應該是比較能夠一本多利，有時候要看它的效率，也許能夠創造人民更多的健康跟幸福……"],["林委員月琴：對，把錢財集中去做更長遠穩定的事情事實上是比較重要的。","最後，請衛福部應該要確保我們的醫療量能，讓輕重症病患都能夠受到妥善的照顧。還有，我覺得要保障醫護人員的權益以及落實醫療分級。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長及署長。","接續我們請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163190","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163190","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857ad8dc20fdd5d2bcc7e529aa6299d4c22bf5d88cf2e24a70e59671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:44:47 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那我希望就是說因應這個美國的對等關稅的這個議題一旦開始實施或發生之後衛福部能夠及時來反映不要因為這個關稅的議題影響到我們的藥"},{"start":104.874,"end":119.44,"text":"或者是讓這個基層需要用藥的這個部分可能會有一個短缺我們希望說真的要戒慎恐懼我這個真的是要事先提醒部長還有署長另外我想請教"},{"start":120.72,"end":130.846,"text":"部長在前陣子在基層我們看到就是說集中南韓那尤其是兒科的部分我以彰化為例彰化兒科這個9點過後的這個急診"},{"start":136.969,"end":165.729,"text":"就只剩下张基因为张基他有儿童医院那其他的这个医院他们都没有九点过后就没有这个儿科的一个急诊那不论是儿科或者是集中南韩的这个部分其实我担心的就是说可能未来会比较集中在都市那偏乡的部分可能所有的医师可能不太愿意到偏乡以目前我们看到"},{"start":166.77,"end":183.008,"text":"彰化的竹塘方院大城二林這幾個鄉鎮所有的診所的醫師年紀都已經偏大了可能都七八十歲了那未來也許這些醫師"},{"start":184.709,"end":204.759,"text":"不再看診之後這些鄉鎮可能就沒有醫師就沒有醫師我覺得這是很嚴重的一個問題那甚至我看到就是說我們那個重點科別培育的這個公費醫師我不知道說為什麼衛福部好像針對這一部分有做一些調整是不是"},{"start":205.834,"end":231.126,"text":"工會醫師因為他的計畫到今年就結束了那結束之後呢就沒有延續沒有延續那沒有延續的話剛我講的偏鄉也許未來這些這個年紀比較偏大這些資深的醫師退休之後再看診之後可能就剩下衛生所的醫師那衛生所的醫師這些醫師他未來"},{"start":232.54,"end":259.731,"text":"也許會很難招聘這些公費的醫師這些衛生所的醫師他也許也不想到偏鄉所以我覺得說如果你們把這個重點科別培育的公費醫師到今年結束你們就這樣子結束之後未來你的公費醫師或者是偏鄉的醫師你要找醫師我覺得應該都會非常的困難所以我希望部長針對這部分你們應該要好好的去思考"},{"start":260.347,"end":281.822,"text":"是的,謝謝委員,我們台灣現在的醫事人力是不換寡,是換不均,所以怎樣鼓勵措施到偏鄉,那當然現在目前在地養成的還是有,在地的比較老一點,因為公會醫師其實訓練以後,他服務以後基本上就"},{"start":283.143,"end":307.339,"text":"大概都會離開那個服務的地方所以部長我今天要講的應該是比較需要關注那部長你講的在地養成那我今天要講的就是說如果你把這個重點特別培育的公費醫師這個時間到今年為止嘛那你後面你不再有這樣的一個計畫那未來我覺得說這個偏鄉的醫師或這個比較偏鄉的衛生所的醫師我覺得你都會很難去"},{"start":313.904,"end":328.476,"text":"剛開始最後一屆是醫學生所以後面延年不絕至少有十年是後面還有醫師的可是部長你不擔心未來這些醫師就集中在都市嗎"},{"start":329.637,"end":357.504,"text":"當然我們現在比如說這幾年的公費生為什麼大家比較有意見有些學生都比較有意見因為他要服務比以前多啦要到十年那你今年既然你是一個公費醫師的話那你就知道就是說我就是要綁定服務幾年嘛對現在就是這樣子嘛目前這幾年都是綁定十年如果你不願意的話那你就不要投入公費醫師嘛對不對那所以我覺得部長我覺得這個制度"},{"start":358.564,"end":381.321,"text":"我認為應該要讓他繼續,要不然你以後偏鄉的醫師我覺得你應該是很難找到因為公會醫師也算是在醫師人力,所以可能會增加到醫學生的名額這個部分我們也會謹慎來處理應該更重要的是鼓勵更多的人,例如急重症,人力到偏鄉"},{"start":382.361,"end":391.826,"text":"那當然你願意到偏鄉你要有誘因啊如果今天你讓人家到偏鄉誘因公會醫師是其中之一而已啦有更多的像我以前在台大當完總醫師我也到幾乎沒有醫師的金山鄉那你在那邊待幾年我在那邊待兩年待兩年以後"},{"start":406.153,"end":409.656,"text":"現在30年後面都是有總醫師在那邊當主任而且蓋了醫院所以看制度的問題我就覺得醫學中心也有責任去對偏鄉地區的醫療的人力"},{"start":424.048,"end":438.209,"text":"這個在一時中平線的六大任務裡面也是有提到這個部分那我們給他相對的一個幫忙支持很多大醫院是願意去照顧偏鄉這樣也是一個制度啦當然我們可以多元化來討論"},{"start":439.851,"end":465.985,"text":"部長我今天想要特別的提醒你因為我看到我們彰化地區有很多比較偏遠的鄉鎮那真的醫師年紀都偏大那偏大之後未來這些這個醫師不再看診之後這些鄉鎮就沒有牙醫診所沒有一般的那個診所是完全都沒有現在這個鄉鎮可能就只有一家兩家甚至有的之前"},{"start":466.585,"end":489.873,"text":"在前幾年是連一間那個牙科醫師牙科診所完全都沒有所以如果說你今天要有這樣的一個重點培育的公費制度的話我認為應該是要有一些誘因而且如果你今天要投入公費醫師的話那你就知道說這個時間你可能在這個地方你可能要服務5年10年甚至15年那"},{"start":490.393,"end":509.108,"text":"當然他願意再偏鄉的話我們要給他更好的一個薪資更好的福利我覺得這應該也是我們的重點要不然你看到現在很多的醫院護理人員大家覺得說護理人員為什麼都不想投入即使他今天讀了護理科系可是他就不願意投入這個當護理師為什麼"},{"start":512.33,"end":536.181,"text":"因為他覺得太辛苦也許薪資不是他理想的他想要再找其他的工作所以我覺得說部長今天應該要去好好的思考如果今天偏鄉的醫師未來五年十年後不再有人在那邊服務的話我覺得這個是一個國家非常重大的一個危機那如果你今天原本有的這樣的一個重點培育的計畫如果可以繼續延續的話"},{"start":538.323,"end":554.24,"text":"這個醫師他願意投入偏鄉那你應該就要有更豐厚的這個福利來支撐讓他願意到偏鄉去服務所以部長我在這邊要特別提醒你這個制度我覺得你應該要好好的再去思考好 我們再來演繹"},{"start":556.198,"end":576.463,"text":"再來研議因為這個要注意到是不是會增加因為他那個公會醫師沒有算在醫學生的容額裡面所以這個醫學界也會有意見不是啦請三個意外啦是啦 保證我現在要跟你說的好多醫生如果願意投入偏鄉的話那當然是OK的我們會鼓勵我們會鼓勵沒有問題啊今天就是沒有人要去嘛今天如果說大家都很想要去"},{"start":582.705,"end":605.666,"text":"那當然這個就沒問題啊那今天是重點你重點陪集中南韓或者是偏鄉就沒人要去啊所以你就是要另外一套制度來支撐嘛那再來就是說你要有更好的誘因更大的誘因讓他想要到偏鄉去服務啦一定一定我這是一家宇宙新廠因為我曾經常常下鄉過我很清楚"},{"start":606.566,"end":629.089,"text":"那個我跑過無數個偏鄉的一個醫療服務我很清楚必須要有更多的因為包括去那邊的都還是連剛好小孩子都很小他們其實是很難離開太原所以怎麼樣做好各方面的處理以及早上他回來可以當醫院的主治醫師或者是怎麼樣這有很多的方式就可以讓我們的年輕的醫師願意去服務"},{"start":630.35,"end":653.688,"text":"所以我好那這個部分我們會來整體來研議真的我要特別提醒部長齊眾南韓那兒科的部分確實現在的醫師真的也很難找所以真的不停一部分你真的要再去思考好好的思考未來如果真的找不到偏鄉的醫師那怎麼辦齊眾跟偏鄉是我們要努力的重點謝謝委員好謝謝黃雄委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1057,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時44分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我先就這一次美國對等關稅可能的議題，基層很多人會擔心未來藥品的價格是不是會上漲，或者會有缺藥這樣的狀況？我想請教衛福部針對這部分，你們有做什麼樣的因應？"],["邱部長泰源：事實上現在國際關稅的變化，我們必須要嚴陣以待，不管是藥品或醫材在價格方面，當然有可能因為原料藥的提升會增加、提高它的價錢，所以這個時候，我們相對的在健保的體制裡面，我們都會根據廠商進口的成本來提高它的給付。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們有因應的對策，已經有……"],["邱部長泰源：都已經成立對策，會密切來注意、監測。第二個，我們也要澈底來改善我們藥品的供藥韌性，包括支持新藥在地製造、鼓勵國產、學名要及早進入市場等等這幾個策略，我們都已經設立在那邊，來因應這樣的變局。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我希望因應美國對等關稅的議題一旦開始實施或發生之後，衛福部能夠即時來反應，不要因為關稅的議題影響到我們的藥，或者是讓基層需要用藥可能會有短缺，我們希望真的要戒慎恐懼，這個真的是要事先提醒部長還有署長。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，我想請教部長，前陣子我們看基層急重難罕，尤其是兒科的部分，我以彰化為例，彰化兒科9點過後的急診就只剩下彰基，因為彰基有兒童醫院，其他的醫院他們9點過後就沒有兒科的急診。不論是兒科或者是急重難罕的部分，其實我擔心的是未來醫師可能會比較集中在都市，而偏鄉的部分，醫師可能不太願意到偏鄉。目前我們看到彰化的竹塘、芳苑、大城、二林這幾個鄉鎮，所有診所的醫師年紀都已經偏大了，可能都七、八十歲了，未來這些醫師不再看診之後，也許這些鄉鎮就沒有醫師，我覺得這是很嚴重的問題！甚至我看到你們重點科別培育的公費醫師，衛福部針對這一部分好像有做一些調整，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：因為公費醫師第二期的計畫到今年就結束了。"],["黃委員秀芳：那結束之後呢？"],["邱部長泰源：就沒有延續。"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有延續？沒有延續的話，剛剛我講的偏鄉，也許未來這些年紀比較偏大、資深的醫師，退休之後、不再看診之後，可能就剩下衛生所的醫師，而衛生所的醫師未來也許會很難招聘喔！因為這些公費的醫師、衛生所的醫師，他也許也不想到偏鄉喔！所以你們重點科別培育公費醫師的計畫到今年結束之後，未來你的公費醫師或者是偏鄉的醫師，當你要找醫師時，我覺得應該都會非常的困難，所以我希望部長針對這部分，你們應該要好好的去思考。"],["邱部長泰源：是的，謝謝委員，我們臺灣現在的醫事人力是不患寡而患不均……"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以全部都集中在……"],["邱部長泰源：所以怎麼樣有鼓勵措施讓他到偏鄉，當然，目前在地養成的還是有，在地的比較留得住，因為公費醫師訓練以後、服務以後，基本上他大概都會離開那個服務的地方啦……"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我今天要講的……"],["邱部長泰源：所以在地養成的應該是比較需要去關注。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長，你講在地養成，而我今天要講的就是重點科別培育的公費醫師計畫時間到今年為止，但後面你不再有這樣的計畫，未來我覺得偏鄉的醫師或比較偏鄉衛生所的醫師都會很難招聘。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們現在才剛開始最後一屆醫學生……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：所以後面源源不絕，至少有10年是後面還有醫師的，還有公費醫師。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是部長你不擔心未來這些醫師集中在都市嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然，比如說這幾年的公費生，為什麼大家會比較有意見，有些學生會比較有意見，因為他服務的比以前多，要到10年。"],["黃委員秀芳：既然你是一個公費醫師的話，那你就知道要綁定服務幾年，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對，現在就是……"],["黃委員秀芳：就是這樣子嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：目前這幾年都是綁定10年。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果你不願意的話，那你就不要投入公費醫師，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我認為這個制度應該要讓它繼續，要不然以後偏鄉的醫師，我覺得你應該是很難找到，我這邊真的……"],["邱部長泰源：因為公費醫師也算在醫師人力，所以可能會增加到醫學生的名額，這個部分我們也會謹慎來處理，更重要的是要鼓勵更多的人願意走急重症、願意到偏鄉。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然，願意到偏鄉要有誘因啊！如果今天你要人家到偏鄉，然後又沒有什麼誘因的話……"],["邱部長泰源：公費醫師是其中之一而已，有更多的……像我以前在臺大當完總醫師，我也到幾乎沒有醫師的金山鄉，去當衛生所主任。"],["黃委員秀芳：你在那邊待幾年？"],["邱部長泰源：我在那邊待兩年。"],["黃委員秀芳：待兩年就很多……"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，我待兩年之後，後面30年都有總醫師在那邊當主任，一直輪流去，而且也蓋了醫院……"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我今天要跟你講的……"],["邱部長泰源：所以是制度的問題，我覺得醫學中心也有責任去對偏鄉地區的醫療人力，在醫學中心評鑑的六大任務裡面也有提到這個部分，我們給他們相對的幫忙與支持，很多大醫院是願意去照顧偏鄉的，這也是一個制度。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：我們可以多元化來討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我今天想要特別提醒你，因為我看到我們彰化地區有很多偏遠的鄉鎮，醫師年紀真的都偏大，未來這些醫師不再看診之後，這些鄉鎮就沒有牙醫診所、沒有一般的診所，是完全都沒有，現在這個鄉鎮可能就只有一家、兩家，甚至有的在前幾年是連一間牙科診所都沒有，所以如果你今天要有這樣的一個重點培育的公費制度，我認為應該是要有一些誘因，而且你今天要投入公費醫師的話，那你就知道這個時間，你可能在這個地方要服務5年、10年甚至15年，當然他如果願意在偏鄉，我們要給他更好的薪資、更好的福利。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得這應該也是我們的重點，要不然你看到現在很多的醫院護理人員，大家覺得護理人員為什麼都不想投入，即使他今天讀了護理科系，可是他就不願意投入當護理師，為什麼？因為他覺得太辛苦，也許薪資不是他理想的，他想要再找其他的工作，所以我覺得部長今天應該要去好好的思考，如果偏鄉的醫師在未來5年、10年後不再有人在那邊服務的話，我覺得這是國家非常重大的一個危機，你今天原本有這樣的一個重點培育計畫，如果可以繼續延續，醫師願意投入偏鄉，那你應該就要有更豐厚的福利來支撐，讓他願意到偏鄉去服務。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我在這邊要特別提醒你，我覺得你應該要好好的再去思考這個制度。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們會再來研議。"],["黃委員秀芳：再來研議？"],["邱部長泰源：這個要注意到是不是會增加……因為公費醫師沒有算在醫學生的容額裡面，所以醫學界也會有意見，前三個以外……"],["黃委員秀芳：不是啦，部長我現在要跟你說的是，醫生如果願意投入偏鄉的話，那當然是OK，沒問題啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我們要鼓勵……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，沒問題啊！但今天就是沒人要去嘛，如果大家都很想要去，那當然就沒問題啊！今天重點是在急重難罕或者是偏鄉沒人要去啊！所以你就是要有另外一套制度來支撐嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：再來就是你要有更好、更大的誘因讓他們想要到偏鄉去服務。"],["邱部長泰源：一定、一定。"],["黃委員秀芳：我在此是語重心長的跟部長說。"],["邱部長泰源：我常常下鄉，我很清楚，我跑過無數個偏鄉醫療服務，我很清楚必須要有更多的誘因，因為去那邊的醫生剛好小孩子都很小，他們其實很難離開太遠，所以怎麼樣做好各方面的處理，以及保障他回來可以當醫院的主治醫師或者是怎麼樣，有很多方式可以讓我們的年輕醫師願意去服務。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，那這個部分……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會整體來研議。"],["黃委員秀芳：我真的要特別提醒部長，急重難罕及兒科的部分，確實現在的醫師真的很難找，所以部長這部分你真的要再好好的思考，未來如果真的找不到偏鄉的醫師該怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：好，急重症跟偏鄉是我們要努力的重點，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163189","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163189","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857f4a36c44ffa30ac27e529aa6299d4c223c22ec92c82f31c3d506cc573e17a0395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:23:17 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有請邱部長"},{"start":5.356,"end":32.723,"text":"部長今天召委的專題報告是這個前半段是因為嚴重災情緊急這個重大事件醫療院所承擔的這個救護量人的困境還有包含這近年來我們台灣人民很關心的這個議題就是如果台灣發生緊急狀況時不論藥醫材或是這個專業人力到底夠不夠那部長先看這個表格這是近五年的護理人員的總職業率"},{"start":34.523,"end":56.576,"text":"我們是在下降中,109是63.26、113是62.7也就是109年的時候爆發了COVID-19然後整個疫情延燒三年之久,當時醫護人力就已經是短缺的狀況那現在如果又遇到緊急狀況,我們到底有沒有足夠的醫護人力"},{"start":58.557,"end":83.167,"text":"因為當時很多縣市有發出退職醫務召集令然後召集退職的醫務人員回到現場支援像快篩站、社區篩檢站等等我們在回憶過去的時候在新冠這段期間臨時靠這樣做法徵召來的退職的護理人員當時是非常緊急又很臨時所以如果台灣又面臨到這樣一個狀況再發生"},{"start":85.208,"end":101.824,"text":"我們需要這些退職的醫護人員回到這個第一線的時候來做服務我們是不是有整體的規劃好的一個SOP可供來做執行也保障這些退職然後再重回職場的醫護人員來配合政府做一些檢查應變的這些狀況有嗎"},{"start":104.286,"end":124.755,"text":"有,好,包括劉昭偉,兩個問題回答,第一個就是在護理人員的成長,今年我們在我們的努力,政府的努力之下,有62.7變成63,所以有增加了3000多左右,3500多的護理人員從去年同期,但這中間有1700多是所以又回到63點多了"},{"start":127.596,"end":146.458,"text":"第二個就是非常感謝召委提醒到這個退職醫護召集令這件事情那當時在疫情期間的確我們召組了護理臺灣隊那當時有一千一萬五百個人報名當然很多其實都是自公性質的,就說我已經在對你服務"},{"start":147.979,"end":172.385,"text":"那我願意來投入,譬如說幫你打針啊,幫你做篩檢等等的那其中其實裡面有25,真正是25%是沒有職業的啦其他還是有工作,就好像我有時候去診所你們為什麼台北市醫生說一副這樣好,你為什麼沒有來召集我,我願意去篩檢所以當時真的醫護都很願意來投入,這是一股很好的力量"},{"start":172.805,"end":200.804,"text":"所以為了維護這樣的社會利益本部在我們衛福部有建立一個互助醫平臺那這裡面有超過十二萬個護理人員註冊在這裡那我們也給他繼續的教育那也擴大這個平臺所以委員所隨行的這件事情我們是一直繼續在做而且將來應該不管是在平時或者是有特別狀況的時候我覺得都應該啟動這些人力來幫忙"},{"start":203.644,"end":227.335,"text":"部長講的就是當時應變的狀況,基本上我們也感受到溫暖,也感受到衛福部的召集,大家都願意從75%的可能在其他比較不是很嚴重的地方的職業的游人員,他也願意過來接受政府的調動,來做支持,另外25%他是已經沒有在職業中的,他也願意再回來,這個比例應該有點少,75%對25%,"},{"start":232.117,"end":253.848,"text":"這可能你們要再了解一下啦當然不用在這邊再回答我這個問題那第二個我還是必須講不管這個75%從北地方過來支援還是25%已經沒有支援一段時間的他又要受到政府這樣的趕招又要再投入這樣一個緊急的應變狀況那我們都應該鼓勵跟應該肯定但是相對的他的安全的保障政府也必須要給他"},{"start":255.254,"end":261.621,"text":"有訂出這樣的SOP嗎?相關的所有要點嗎?相關的勞動條件的這個保障這個基本勞動的這個保障然後另外一個就是假設他做什麼工作之前我們都確定他有經過教育訓練"},{"start":276.101,"end":280.204,"text":"還有職業 職業你都會先做我先跟委員說一下就是說你剛才提的是這個COVID的時間我們做了一個護理臺灣隊那當時護理人員確實展現了他的社會力那我們希望這件事情可以持續所以我們就在設立一個叫做護理社群平臺"},{"start":297.436,"end":302.259,"text":"那事實上護理人員是這樣假設我們的統計是這樣那如果離開醫院兩年後你讓他再回到醫院等於不可能所以不是只是退休的人而是說假設他要離職或退休的人我們怎麼讓他維持"},{"start":314.967,"end":321.132,"text":"維持在這個人才庫裡面這是重點你的75%跟25%就被你這樣的趕招來投入、分配、支援各個地區的醫療的系統裡面那他回來的之前他應該要多少時間來做一個培訓或是怎麼樣我們就以任務導向譬如說當時"},{"start":338.647,"end":343.111,"text":"要做這個疫苗注射隊那我們就會開始招募各家醫院他的需求是什麼然後我們就會開始辦訓練然後做媒合這個時間那每個人就會填說他的時間是可以的時間是什麼那我們確定他有經過訓練"},{"start":355.28,"end":360.445,"text":"然後到哪裡去集合然後到哪裡去做報導所以妳要對我表達就是說沒有一個統一的一個時間啦是不是沒有的時間沒有嘛但是妳的培訓的時間應該是一致啊妳要沒有醫院那個會有時間的落差我很清楚嘛我是在請教妳培訓的時間嘛"},{"start":373.618,"end":384.948,"text":"在那個之前我們就啟動那個培訓對啦 時間啦一天、兩天、三天、一天、四天、三天、八天、七天、八天那培訓就有看疫苗注射嘛那一個是那個檢查就看他的任務有一個是居家隔離的時候的那個關閥那你可以直接有當跟我的會報告嘛那注射的是要培訓多久那什麼是要當作幾小時嘛那什麼又是"},{"start":396.778,"end":403.144,"text":"又是1天又2天嗎市長你就是沒有做啦你有做你就可以直接打電話回答我了嘛沒有啊 不然你就直接跟我們講1 2 3 舉1 3個注射疫苗 做什麼樣 快篩 還是什麼你再強調一次好不好"},{"start":419.358,"end":443.121,"text":"居家醫療的大概是一天我們一天就集合那那個感控的我們是透過那個視訊視訊的這個教學視訊教學的培訓多久那個視訊教學的培訓大概也是大概一天左右你怎麼都會叫做大概你怎麼都會叫做大概你現在答問我全部都叫大概你會不會叫做大概的趙復師的師長"},{"start":445.806,"end":451.893,"text":"趙律師大概 蔡市長醫療 不能讓你這樣回答吧 你的專業我是非常慶祝的嘛 對不對他們這個一段時間 75%已經沒有你這個職業剛剛市長是講6小時"},{"start":463.536,"end":491.955,"text":"什麼樣的六小時?不然你每天要跟我請坐,是多少個行目六小時?感控的方面六小時那其他的大致上舉兩個就好了,大致上是幾小時?居家醫療的我們是居家醫療關懷我們是做那個指引的訓練,那那個講解也是早上講解然後下午講解但是早上兩個小時下午是兩個小時這樣也是大概嘛所以居家關懷也是大概嘛"},{"start":496.638,"end":520.336,"text":"醫療可以講大概醫療的培訓、醫護的培訓可以講大概上午兩節、下午兩節啦不然這樣啦,我印象中平均是一週上班、上課一週培訓是一週,沒有好,沒有代表照護師沒有不代表其他的這個公部門的單位沒有"},{"start":521.124,"end":541.161,"text":"你要不要把這些東西弄出來盤整清楚然後做一個統一的規範那相對的對這些願意受到政府趕招回來支援在第一現場的這些醫護人員我們有相關的這些要點作業的要點可以保障他們然後也把這樣的這個草案可以訂出來"},{"start":542.159,"end":555.356,"text":"好 我們來處理我就要求這個而已嘛好 沒問題之前沒有做啦這個都必須要做而且很重要就因為之前沒有做現在我們就落實來做嘛一個星期啦可以吧好 謝謝"},{"start":560.342,"end":577.656,"text":"那第二件事也是這樣,現在除了緊急狀況,徵召退職的醫護人員能力之外,還需要正本期,也就是正式現在疫病的這樣的一個環境嘛,然後衛福部會改善護理人力的這個護客,從去年3月就已經推動急性一般病患的這個三班的達標,"},{"start":579.967,"end":605.402,"text":"獎勵嘛然後就是國立醫院要補儲這個護理人力那三班護病比達標的獎勵我想大家都很清楚嘛第一個階段就是2024的3月到2025的6月嘛其實就是上個月就已經結束了啦那你第二階段什麼時候開始7月就開始第二個階段就是一定要三班達標才獎勵你們第一個階段有做相關的檢討然後調整"},{"start":608.027,"end":629.802,"text":"一些這樣的一個計畫然後包含未達標該如何去做處理然後有達標的當然就獎勵嘛對不對那未達標要怎麼處理只要三班白班小業大業中有兩班達標衛護部及醫個院申報住院護理會額外給予3%加成獎勵對不對"},{"start":631.397,"end":637.603,"text":"沒有錯吧 好如果三班全數達標 加成提高至7%對不對謝謝衛部 謝謝部長 謝謝司長衛達標你怎麼處理衛達標怎麼處理有達標我們獎勵嘛對 沒達標的勒"},{"start":649.885,"end":675.624,"text":"比如說第一階段目前沒有達標的是27家我沒有問你幾家你直接跟我講怎麼處理你針對我的問題答我好不好那每一家的特殊性都不一樣我沒有在問你特殊性啊我就請教你未達標你們怎麼處理啊你要特殊性要去特殊處理我尊重嘛那你要不要講說他們達標有達到這樣如果有特殊性你要不要另外再加成"},{"start":677.501,"end":693.15,"text":"3比7啊 那特殊性要不要3比7比10你才跟我講說你要懲處的是有特殊性啊我們要公平啊 我們要一視同仁啊 該獎勵獎勵啊我的邏輯很簡單嘛 我把事情講清楚嘛 不對你也是一個很聰明的人為什麼沒有懲處"},{"start":702.13,"end":709.806,"text":"因為現在先鼓勵你現在是跟你這個額外加3%跟這個加成這個三班落全數達標加成提高到7%是針對醫院喔"},{"start":712.327,"end":738.129,"text":"對不對 醫院醫院沒有達標有達標你獎勵他嘛 對不對沒有達標就是公告然後去了解他的內容剛剛其實我們也有分析那裡面有不少是地區醫院那地區醫院他們就沒有報 巴加斯地區醫院就沒有把書記報上來嘛沒有把住院信報上來他們怎麼敢 你知道當部長咧他們怎麼敢"},{"start":740.131,"end":753.343,"text":"他們怎麼敢不報上來?他們是有多大的膽子不報上來?有報上來,但是沒有...沒有住院病人有些地區醫院應該是有的沒有住院病人,地區醫院"},{"start":764.801,"end":769.506,"text":"我問這件問題是這樣,全國372家醫院,311家都有達標,大致上,對不對?那有53家,不是你講的,不是剛剛市長講的,29家27家是113年的3月到今年的3月,那這個是4月份"},{"start":789.046,"end":803.02,"text":"好現在第一階段已經結束了你再跟我講113年的三月不是好那你現在再跟我補充是114年的四月你現在是要用哪一個段程來跟我來做這個說明跟委會做說明蔡大愷市長"},{"start":808.067,"end":833.536,"text":"三月以前的是27家那四月...董事長我給你看其實很簡單的啦你先不要回答啦你不要急著回答你就讓市長回答嘛你看啦你看嘛你剛才講的地區醫院嘛對不對黃色的字那叫什麼醫院?部立鋪子醫院那是地區醫院對不對還有育理醫院嘛對不對那區域醫院呢?"},{"start":835.1,"end":858.395,"text":"台南便衣沒有啦 剛才那兩支你也唸過喔 那是地道中心 慈濟醫院不是啦 不是啦 紅衣的保安你唸過 你有沒有讀過 雙河醫院沒有啦 那是醫藥中心嘛 對不對 我說區醫院啦區醫院的部立台南醫院喔對喔 部立嘛 再來部立台北醫院 再來部立苗栗醫院 再來部立鳳梨醫院 部立彰化醫院 部立南投醫院你們的部立實在很清 通通沒有打標"},{"start":859.71,"end":862.795,"text":"請教你還沒抓到這我就去討論這我就去討論這我就去討論"},{"start":875.969,"end":882.476,"text":"請蔡大蓋市長再說明一下 部長你休息一下蔡大蓋市長要提供的是113年未達標的然後他現在講的又再補充114年未達標的在四月前"},{"start":896.065,"end":920.771,"text":"報告委員因為我們大部分的醫院都在偏鄉離島然後我們為了 台南在偏鄉離島台北在偏鄉離島彰化在偏鄉離島我們為了不要讓 你要不要修正你剛剛講的偏鄉離島這幾句話因為你們衛島三幫互併比的醫院我剛剛列的這幾家不利醫院它不是偏鄉離島的醫院"},{"start":923.232,"end":935.784,"text":"這幾家醫院你要不要先修正你剛剛對我回應的第一句話我們再有辦法繼續討論下去不然就請你可以回到你的座位上因為我也沒有邀請你上來有幾個原因第一個原因你要不要先修正你剛剛講的第一句話不修正請你回到你的座位下修正"},{"start":942.49,"end":969.79,"text":"另外是因為我們為了怕急著擁塞比如說台北醫院在北部有很多醫學中心他們可能為了護病比的關係可能有關床那我們不要造成人球事件所以其實他們的床是沒有關完全沒有關就維持開放所以他們會讓護理人員有很多很好的福利所以那些護理人員願意撐著讓讓民眾享受比較好的醫療"},{"start":970.791,"end":987.719,"text":"而不是用關船來解決這個護病筆的問題我以為問你到後面這個問題你只要這麼講你不關船你就是把人力補足啊就這樣而已啊我們會努力補足人力我現在要給部長看的是部長醫護會還是照護師他們可以幫你講到什麼程度幫你們說明到什麼程度其實都很困難啦今天三班護病筆未達標"},{"start":1001.308,"end":1020.976,"text":"不立院這麼多家,這個數字顯示出來,紅字就是不及格嘛難看,不好看所以我請長長講說底下的幕僚單位到底在做什麼事情請部長要小心啦我們會去加油你當然要加油,你自己加油也不夠你又加到九百也不夠這不是這樣嘛"},{"start":1027.999,"end":1038.468,"text":"對 人人百人三百幾斤都要到達標提供這個獎勵的加成對醫院喔3% 7%那我才會請教你啊 那未達標你怎麼處理啊不管什麼原因啦 你怎麼處理嘛有獎就有成啊很簡單的邏輯問題嘛博律有請你索賀好不好 一禮拜一禮拜檢討報告都去做修正嘛 好不好最好齁 最好 台灣那個"},{"start":1056.553,"end":1077.925,"text":"再次強調這筆款項是專管專用必須用於護理人員然後針對不同班設計流論方案醫院需要在院內公開分配方式並向護理人員說明清楚對不對 沒有錯嘛臺灣護理產業公會跟你講說你不要這樣做要不然把獎勵金直接報給病人由醫院統籌運用 政府不干預喔"},{"start":1082.881,"end":1101.242,"text":"我們獎勵金有兩類我當然知道獎勵金有兩類啊我再跟你講哪一類你很清楚啊你不要再跳來跳去啊因為每一家醫院他拿到的獎勵金都不一樣所以這個是我們的規範每一家醫院拿到的獎勵金當然不一樣啊但是你是造物師你只有同一個規範啊"},{"start":1102.723,"end":1122.529,"text":"有啊 我們沒有規範啊你規範怎麼可以說你不管我們沒有說不管啊你怎麼管我們是公告啊 然後我們有調查他們會回覆啊公告完之後他違反咧他違反你成功的公告規定你怎麼處理啊你怎麼處理啊就收回啊就收回啊怎麼收回你到目前為止收回幾筆我已照你們公告的規範去執行你到目前為止你收回幾筆"},{"start":1131.374,"end":1134.436,"text":"你收回幾筆 你跟委員說明 你收回幾筆你連大概收回一筆都沒有啦你好有意思在這邊講大放厥詞我尊重你們 你們把這些委員當成在委員會的意思在呼嚨亂七八糟到幾點"},{"start":1164.822,"end":1193.664,"text":"護理人員一直依賴的,一直對於期待的,是非常高尤其對部長,不然你怎麼對台南人愛所以對培養管理,對護理人員照顧,你都比什麼更清楚你的制度有問題,獎勵沒有人去挑戰你但是為達標,你的部理醫院比例這麼高然後你自己講得這麼清楚,專款專用今天醫院,你給了他的獎勵,他沒有專款專用"},{"start":1194.793,"end":1201.258,"text":"你沒有任何的方式可以做處理你還好意思在這個委員會跟我講說 收回你收回哪一筆的啊報告委員 我們一定堅決來執行你這個委員是好意給你賠償你們做的這個問題 這案子繼續在出現對你有好報是好事嗎對你有好報 要帶領全國的醫護人員在每一個"},{"start":1221.909,"end":1244.856,"text":"他盡心盡責 負責了職業的場所這是一件好事嗎絕對不好嘛 對不對那我們事務上有一些問題政策上有一些問題我們就該修啊 該面對啊你沒有做到沒有做到事情 你怎麼好意思在公開在這邊講然後問題 你一直用偏鄉醫療來搪塞我你當初今天這個委員會嗎"},{"start":1250.495,"end":1260.876,"text":"下禮拜看蘇貞昊要不要排考察啦全部的不利我們全部走一次啦好 施委員我們會努力 謝謝這個我要補充一下就是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時23分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["劉委員建國：早。部長，今天召委排的專題報告，前半段是因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，醫療院所承擔救護量能困境，還有包含近年來臺灣人民很關心的議題，就是如果臺灣發生緊急狀況時，不論藥、醫材或是專業人力到底夠不夠。部長，先看這個表格，這是近五年護理人員的總執業率，是在下降中，109年是63.26%、113年是62.7%。109年的時候爆發COVID-19，整個疫情延燒三年之久，當時醫護人力就已經是短缺的狀況，現在如果又遇到緊急狀況，我們到底有沒有足夠的醫護人力？當時很多縣市有發出退職醫護召集令。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["劉委員建國：召集退職醫護人員回到現場支援，像快篩站、社區篩檢站等等。我們回憶過去新冠這段期間，臨時靠這樣的作法來徵召退職護理人員，當時是非常緊急也很臨時，如果臺灣又面臨這樣的狀況再發生，需要這些退職醫護人員回到第一線服務，我們是不是有整體規劃好的SOP可供執行？也能保障這些退職又再重回職場的醫護人員配合政府做這些緊急應變的狀況，有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有，報告劉召委，兩個問題回答，第一個，關於護理人員的成長部分，今年在政府的努力之下，由62.7%變成63%，增加了三千五百多位的護理人力，從去年同期，但這中間有1,700都是……"],["劉委員建國：所以又回到六十三點多了？"],["邱部長泰源：對。第二個，非常感謝召委提及到退職醫護召集令這件事情，當時在疫情期間的確我們招募了護理臺灣隊，當時有1萬500個人報名，當然很多其實都是志工性質，就是他已經在某個地方服務，但他願意投入幫忙打針、做篩檢等等。其中裡面的25%是沒有執業的，其他還是有工作，就像我有時候去診所，那裡的復健科醫生跟我說：你為什麼沒有召集我，我願意去篩檢。當時真的醫護都很願意投入，這是一股很好的力量，為了維護這樣的社會力，衛福部建立一個護助e起來平臺，有超過12萬個護理人員在這裡註冊，我們給他們做繼續教育，也擴大這個平臺。所以委員所垂詢的這件事情，我們是一直繼續在做，而且將來不管是在平時或者是有特別狀況的時候，我覺得都應該啟動這些人力來幫忙。"],["劉委員建國：部長講的是當時的應變狀況，基本上我們感受到溫暖，也感受到衛福部這樣的召集，大家都願意，75%可能在其他比較不是很嚴重地方的執業醫護人員也願意過來接受政府這樣的調動來做支持，而另外的25%是已經沒有在執業中的，他們也願意再回來。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["劉委員建國：這個比例有點少，75%對25%，這可能你們要再了解一下，但不用在這邊再回答我的這個問題。第二個，我還是必須講，不管是75%從別的地方過來支援，還是25%已經沒有執業一段時間的，他們也受到政府的感召，願意來投入這樣的緊急應變狀況，我們都應該鼓勵及肯定。但是相對的，對於他們的安全保障，政府也必須要給，有訂出這樣的SOP嗎？有相關的作業要點嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我請司長簡單跟召委報告一下。"],["劉委員建國：OK，請。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：相關勞動條件的保障，除了基本勞動的保障，另外一個是他做什麼工作之前，我們都確定他有經過教育訓練。"],["劉委員建國：都有？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，還有指引都會先做。"],["劉委員建國：教育訓練要多久？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我先跟委員說明一下，你剛才提的是COVID的時間，我們做了一個護理臺灣隊，當時護理人員確實展現了他們的社會力，我們希望這件事情可以持續，所以我們就再設立一個護理社群平臺。事實上護理人員是這樣的，依據我們的統計，他如果離開醫院兩年後，你讓他再回到醫院等於是不可能，所以不只是退休的人，而是離職或退休的人，我們怎麼讓他們維持在這個人才庫裡面，這是重點，然後這個人才庫要保持……"],["劉委員建國：75%跟25%被你們感召來投入，分配支援各個地區的醫療系統裡面，他來之前應該要有多少時間做培訓或是怎麼樣？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們是以任務導向，比如當時要做疫苗注射隊，我們就會開始招募及蒐集各家醫院的需求，然後開始辦訓練，並且媒合大家的時間，每個人會填上自己可以的時間，我們會確定他有經過訓練，並通知他到哪裡集合、到哪裡報到。"],["劉委員建國：所以你要對我表達的是沒有統一的時間，是不是？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：媒合的時間沒有做統一？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：因為醫院的需求不一樣。"],["劉委員建國：但你們培訓的時間應該是一致的。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：我很清楚你們媒合醫院會有時間的落差，我是在請教你培訓的時間。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：在那之前我們就會啟動培訓。"],["劉委員建國：對，時間啦！是1天、2天、3天，或1小時、24小時、38小時、72小時？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：關於培訓的部分，一個是疫苗注射，另一個是檢查，就看他的任務，還有一個是居家隔離時候的關懷。"],["劉委員建國：你可以直接了當跟委員會報告嗎？注射的是要培訓多久？什麼的是要幾小時，什麼的又是1天或兩天？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：原則上他本來就是醫護人員，只是針對這個特殊性……"],["劉委員建國：司長，你就沒有嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：1到3天有啦！"],["劉委員建國：你就是沒有做啦！你有做，你就可以直接了當回答我了。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：有啊……"],["劉委員建國：沒有，不然你就直接跟我講一、二、三，舉例三個，注射疫苗、快篩，還是什麼？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：通常是1天，感控的3天。"],["劉委員建國：什麼？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：居家醫療的大概1天。"],["劉委員建國：你再強調一次，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：感控的3天。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：居家醫療的大概是1天，我們1天就稽核，感控的我們是透過視訊教學。"],["劉委員建國：視訊教學的培訓？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，要多久？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：視訊教學培訓大概也是1天左右。"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼統統都說大概？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：那個網路上都有。"],["劉委員建國：你現在答復我的全部都說大概，你會不會叫做大概的照護司司長，照護司大概蔡司長，大概照護司蔡司長？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們現在那個……"],["劉委員建國：醫療的部分你不能這樣回答吧！你的專業我是非常敬重的，他們這25%已經有一段時間沒有在這個職場執業了。"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛司長是講6小時。"],["劉委員建國：什麼樣的6小時？部長，你要替他回答就說清楚，是哪一個項目6小時？"],["邱部長泰源：感控的方面6小時。"],["劉委員建國：感控的方面6小時？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["劉委員建國：那其他的舉兩個就好了，大致上是幾小時？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：居家醫療……"],["邱部長泰源：居家醫療關懷。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：居家醫療我們是做指引的訓練，講解的部分是早上講解、下午講解，大概是早上2個小時，下午2個小時。"],["劉委員建國：也是大概嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：所以居家關懷這個部分是4小時。"],["劉委員建國：也是大概嘛，你們講都講大概，醫療可以講大概？醫療的培訓、醫護的培訓可以講大概？"],["邱部長泰源：因為上午2節，下午2節，居家的關懷……"],["劉委員建國：部長，這樣啦，我印象臺北市平均是1週。"],["邱部長泰源：上課1週？"],["劉委員建國：對，培訓是1週。沒有？好，沒有代表照護司沒有，不代表其他的公部門單位沒有，你要不要把這些東西弄出來，盤整清楚，然後做一個統一的規範？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：相對的，對這些受到政府感召願意回來支援在第一線現場的這些醫護人員，我們有相關的作業要點可以保障他們，然後也把這個草案訂出來，讓委員會做參考，可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來處理。"],["劉委員建國：我就要求這個而已。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：之前沒有做。"],["邱部長泰源：這個都必須要做，而且很重要。"],["劉委員建國：對，就是因為之前沒有做，現在我們就落實來做。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：1個星期，可以吧？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["劉委員建國：可以喔，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們把資料整理起來跟委員報告。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。第二件事情，現在除了緊急狀況要徵召退職的醫護人員人力之外，還需要正本清源，就是正視現在的醫病環境，衛福部為了改善護理人力的負荷，從去年3月就已經推動急性一般病房三班的達標獎勵，鼓勵醫院要補足護理人力。三班護病比達標的獎勵，我想大家都很清楚，第一個階段就是2024年3月到2025年6月，其實上個月就已經結束了，那你第二階段什麼時候開始？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：7月開始算。"],["劉委員建國：7月就開始第二個階段了？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，一定要三班達標才獎勵。"],["劉委員建國：你們第一個階段有做相關的檢討，然後調整一下這樣的一個計畫，包含未達標該如何處理，有達標的當然就要獎勵，對不對？那未達標的怎麼處理？只要三班，白班、小夜、大夜中有兩班達標，衛福部即依各院申報住院護理費，額外給予3%加成獎勵，對不對？沒有錯吧！好，如果三班全數達標，加成提高至7%，對不對？謝謝衛福部、謝謝部長，也謝謝司長。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：未達標你怎麼處理？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：公告。"],["劉委員建國：未達標怎麼處理？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們現在……"],["劉委員建國：有達標，我們獎勵嘛。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["劉委員建國：沒達標的呢？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：比如第一階段目前沒有達標的是27家……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有問你幾家，你直接跟我講怎麼處理。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們現在……"],["劉委員建國：司長，你針對我的問題答復，好不好？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：每一家的特殊性都不一樣……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有在問你特殊性，我只有請教你，未達標你們怎麼處理？你針對特殊性要去特殊處理，我尊重。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：就公告，然後去了解原因……"],["劉委員建國：你要跟我說他們有達標，如果有特殊性，你要不要另外再加成？3比7，那特殊性要不要3比7比10？你才跟我講說你要懲處的是有特殊性的，我們要公平啊！我們要一視同仁，該獎勵就獎勵啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們現在沒有懲處。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，我們……"],["劉委員建國：我的邏輯很簡單，我們把事情講清楚嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有懲處啦！"],["劉委員建國：部長，你也是一個很正派的人。"],["邱部長泰源：只有獎勵，沒有懲處，現在沒有懲處。"],["劉委員建國：為什麼沒有懲處？"],["邱部長泰源：因為現在先鼓勵。"],["劉委員建國：你現在這個額外加3%，三班如果全數達標，加成提高到7%，是針對醫院，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：醫院。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，醫院沒有達標……"],["邱部長泰源：有27家沒有。"],["劉委員建國：有達標你獎勵它，對不對？沒有達標呢？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有達標就是公告，然後去了解它的內容，其實我們也有分析，那裡面有不少是地區醫院，有8家是地區醫院，他們就沒有把住院數據報上來。"],["劉委員建國：他們怎麼敢？你現在當部長，他們怎麼敢不報上來？他們是有多大的膽子敢不報上來？"],["邱部長泰源：有報上來，但是沒有……"],["劉委員建國：司長，你跟部長提供的訊息，不要再說大概喔！這樣我改天遇到你，就稱呼你為蔡大概司長。"],["邱部長泰源：地區醫院有的應該是沒有住院病人。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我今天要問的問題是這樣啦，全國372家醫院，311家都有達標，大致上啦，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：有53家，不是你講的，不是剛剛司長講的29家。"],["邱部長泰源：這是4月份的資料是不是？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：27家是113年3月到今年3月，這個是4月份的。"],["劉委員建國：現在第一個階段已經結束，你在跟我講113年3月！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：不是，我們上一個階段公告的……"],["劉委員建國：那你現在再跟我補充是114年4月，你是要用哪一個斷層來跟我說明、跟委員會說明，蔡大概司長？"],["邱部長泰源：3月以前的是27家，4月……"],["劉委員建國：部長，我要給你看的其實很簡單啦！你先不要急著回答，你就讓司長回答嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：你看嘛，你剛剛講了地區醫院，對不對？紅色的字，它叫什麼醫院？"],["邱部長泰源：部立朴子醫院。"],["劉委員建國：那是地區醫院，對不對？還有玉里醫院，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：那區域醫院呢？"],["邱部長泰源：臺南醫院。"],["劉委員建國：沒有啦，前面還有2個字你也唸一下。"],["邱部長泰源：那是醫學中心，慈濟醫院。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！紅字的部分你唸一下給大家聽。"],["邱部長泰源：雙和醫院。"],["劉委員建國：沒有啦，那是醫學中心，對不對？我是說區域醫院。"],["邱部長泰源：區域醫院就是部立臺南醫院。"],["劉委員建國：對，部立嘛，再來。"],["邱部長泰源：部立臺北醫院。"],["劉委員建國：再來。"],["邱部長泰源：部立苗栗醫院。"],["劉委員建國：再來。"],["邱部長泰源：部立豐原醫院、部立彰化醫院、部立南投醫院。"],["劉委員建國：哇！你們部立實在很「慶」欸！統統沒有達標，「慶尬抓不住」！"],["邱部長泰源：這我就有去分析原因……"],["劉委員建國：衛福部邱部長帶領的部立醫院，有辦法三班護病比皆未達標！請蔡大概司長再說明一下，部長你休息一下。"],["邱部長泰源：這個是醫福會，因為部立醫院是醫福會……"],["劉委員建國：我知道醫福會，但蔡大概司長要提供我的是113年未達標的，然後他現在講的，又在補充114年未達標的是在4月前。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，是不是請賴副執行長報告？"],["賴副執行長慧貞：報告委員，因為我們大部分的醫院都在偏鄉離島，然後我們為了……"],["劉委員建國：臺南在偏鄉離島？臺北在偏鄉離島？彰化在偏鄉離島？"],["賴副執行長慧貞：我們為了不要讓急診壅塞……"],["劉委員建國：你要不要修正一下你剛剛講的偏鄉離島這幾句話？因為你們三班護病比未達標的醫院，我剛剛列的這幾家部立醫院，不是偏鄉離島的醫院。"],["賴副執行長慧貞：這幾家醫院……"],["劉委員建國：你要不要先修正你剛剛對我回應的第一句話？我們才有辦法繼續討論下去，不然就請你回到你的座位上，因為我也沒有邀請你上來。"],["賴副執行長慧貞：有幾個原因，第一個原因當然是……"],["劉委員建國：你要不要先修正你剛剛講的第一句話？不修正，請你回到你的座位。"],["賴副執行長慧貞：修正！另外，因為我們怕急診壅塞，比如臺北醫院在北部，有很多醫學中心可能為了護病比的關係，可能有關床，我們不要造成人球事件，所以其實他們的床是沒有關，完全沒有關，就維持開放，他們會讓護理人員有很多很好的福利，所以那些護理人員願意撐著，讓民眾享受比較好的醫療，而不是用關床來解決這個護病比的問題，我們也會……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有問你後面這個問題，你自己要這麼講，你不關床，你就是把人力補足，就這樣而已啊，對不對？"],["賴副執行長慧貞：對，我們會努力補足人力。"],["劉委員建國：我現在要給部長看的是，部長，醫福會還是照護司，他們可以幫你們講到什麼程度，幫你們說明到什麼程度，其實都很困難啦！今天三班護病比未達標，部立醫院這麼多家，這個數字顯示出來紅字就是不及格嘛！難看啦！不好看啦！所以我才會講底下的幕僚單位到底在做什麼事情，請部長要小心啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會加油，我們會加油。"],["劉委員建國：你當然要加油啊，你只有加油也不夠，你再加到98汽油也不夠，這不是這樣子嘛！對吧！別人三百多間都有辦法達標，對醫院你還提供獎勵的加成3%、7%喔，所以我才會請教你，未達標你怎麼處理啊？不管什麼原因啦，你怎麼處理嘛，有獎就有懲，很簡單的邏輯問題嘛！部長請你思考，一個禮拜給我一個檢討報告，怎麼去做修正，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["劉委員建國：最後，照護司強調這筆款項是專款專用，必須用於護理人員，然後針對不同班別設計留任方案，醫院需要在院內以公開分配公式，並向護理人員說明清楚，對不對？沒有錯嘛！臺灣護理產業工會跟你說你們沒有這樣做，衛福部把獎勵金直接撥給醫院，由醫院統籌運用，政府不干預喔！"],["邱部長泰源：有這樣的嗎？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們獎勵金有兩類，一類是……"],["劉委員建國：我當然知道獎勵金有兩類啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：有一個夜班值班……"],["劉委員建國：我在跟你講哪一類，你很清楚啊，你不要再跳來跳去啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，因為每一家醫院拿到的獎勵金都不一樣，所以我們的規範是到醫院……"],["劉委員建國：每一家醫院拿到的獎勵金當然不一樣啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，所以它要用在……"],["劉委員建國：但是你是照護司，你就要有統一的規範啊！要一致性去執行啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：有啊！我們有規範啊！我們有規範！"],["劉委員建國：你有規範，怎麼可以不管？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們有公告，我們沒有說不管啊！"],["劉委員建國：那你怎麼管？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們是公告啊！然後我們有調查，它有回復啊！"],["劉委員建國：對，公告完，但它違反呢？它違反相關的規範，你怎麼處理啦？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：它違反他們就可以到護理職場爭議通報平台啊！"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼處理啦！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：收回啊！"],["劉委員建國：未達標你就沒有辦法處理了啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：就收回啊！"],["劉委員建國：怎麼收回？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：它如果……"],["劉委員建國：到目前為止，你收回幾筆？未照你們公告的規範去執行，到目前為止，你收回幾筆？你收回幾筆？你跟委員會說明，你收回幾筆？大概連收回一筆都沒有啦！你還好意思在這邊講，大放厥詞，我尊重你們，你們在委員會一直糊弄，亂七八糟到極點！護理人員一直依賴的、對你們期待是非常高，尤其是對部長。部長你也從臺南來，所以對醫院的管理、對護理人員的照顧，你們都比誰更清楚，你的制度有問題，獎勵沒有人去挑戰你，但是你的部立醫院未達標比例這麼高，你們講得這麼清楚「專款專用」，今天也給了醫院獎勵，但它沒有專款專用，你沒有任何方式可以做處理，你還好意思在這個委員會跟我講說收回，你收回哪一筆了？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們一定嚴格來執行。"],["劉委員建國：沒有，在委員會中，我是好意跟你提醒……"],["邱部長泰源：我知道。"],["劉委員建國：你們遇到這個問題，這個紅字又繼續出現，對衛福部是好的事情嗎？對衛福部來講，要照顧全國的醫護人員，在每一個他盡心盡責執業的場所，這是一件好事嗎？絕對不好嘛，對不對？我們制度上有一些問題……"],["邱部長泰源：我們檢討提出……"],["劉委員建國：政策上有一些問題，我們就該修啊！該面對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：你沒有做到的事情，你怎麼好意思公開在這邊講？然後問你，你一直用偏鄉醫療來搪塞我，你以為我們今天才在這個委員會喔？下禮拜看蘇召委要不要排考察啦！全部的部立醫院我們就全部走一次啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員，我們會努力，謝謝。"],["主席：我要補充一下，事實上這個護理獎勵金是到每一個人戶頭上，所以都是可以電腦調出來，每一筆都會到護理人員的帳號，幾乎所有都是這樣，有沒有違法、違規的，當然要查，這個我們再來加油啦！好，謝謝劉召委。","我們接續請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b985705fe8ea8206995847e529aa6299d4c223c22ec92c82f31c314b1ada5b04794185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:17:18 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現在新借的我們都一致的把他拉長延緩或是免稅期限這樣對農民來說不太會穿開不然很嚴重第二點就是因為他現在就是沒收入嘛那沒收入怎麼辦呢在中間這段的專案補助這個我們也會來想辦法特別是長年生的他現時是正年不在他今年沒辦法收成每年也不知道什麼時候所以這段專案性的我們也會來處理那第三點就是委員第一個提到的"},{"start":312.765,"end":326.901,"text":"現在最要緊的 協助農民趕快來親援也好 復援也好 加拿大現場創好後 會讓他們安心 這是第一要緊所以包括在那個 親運啦 協助這個 要協助我們的現場的人去做什麼 補助啦 有料啦 水電啦 這我們都會來做處理"},{"start":330.384,"end":337.13,"text":"對 我最開始的問題是說一些像是一些香蕉這種大規模的作物我們會來專案我們專案來處理我們專案來處理專案來處理專案來處理就這一個專案好不好先專案我們先救急我們更快來謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":823,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時17分）您好，請農業部。"],["主席：農業部。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長好。昨天有跟你談到關稅的部分，今天先談救災，然後我們再補充。"],["杜次長文珍：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：首先就是這一次我們是全品項，這一次風災我們是全品項。"],["杜次長文珍：是，嘉義、臺南都全品項。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是有一些特殊品項的養殖業，他們對於全品項的一些細部內容可能不是認為他們有沒有包含在裡面，都還會有一些問題，所以這方面我們希望請農業部能夠先帶回去，知道有這件事情，我們辦公室其實已經先跟農業部的專員討論過，有一些比較特殊的品項，螺類或者是少見的這些品項也是有食用性的，這個部分我們希望儘快有一個回應，不然一般縣府科長他們回應的時候也不太確定，所以農業部可能要有一個比較清楚的部分。"],["杜次長文珍：好，我們請漁業署全力協助。"],["陳委員冠廷：然後第二個部分就是，這一次包含香蕉每公頃救助是8萬元，這是用一般災損去估算的，可是我必須要強調這是過去十年來其實沒有什麼太大的變化，可是物價已經有很大的變化，也就是說這一次強風帶來毀滅性的破壞，他們還是用一樣的方式去補償的話，我覺得可能沒有辦法讓他們能夠重建，一些蕉農反映不管肥料、資材成本等已經至少是上漲150%，跟過去幾年比較起來，所以我希望可不可以在現行的額度之上，針對丹娜絲颱風啟動一次性專案災損加成補助，這個部分我希望可以帶回去檢討，因為除了我剛才提到過去的這些成本在這十年來提高之外，還有一些廢棄物清運、物價等等，這些都必須要納入考量，這是第二點。第三點，也請農業部檢討一下多年生的高經濟作物，我們剛才提到香蕉或者是其他的，或者是蔬菜、葉菜類等等，跟我們剛剛提到的，包含咖啡、茶或者是荔枝、龍眼樹、葡萄等作物，他們的概念是不一樣的，現在每公頃針對那些是五萬五到六萬兩千元不同的標準，可是我希望這種補助可以反映在多年生木本作物的真實災損，這不是補助，這是特別救助，我們還是希望能夠來檢討，因為有些是7年成樹、10年結果，這次有些是攔腰，那或許還有機會，但有些是整個連根拔起，等於是全面性的，這10年都沒有辦法再生產。我們看各個鄉鎮，番路鄉、梅山鄉、中埔鄉、新港鄉等等都有類似這樣子的問題出現，所以再麻煩次長也能夠將這個部分帶回去，因為未來是持續性的損失，它不是一次的。之前部長來嘉義的時候也有提到，因為連續兩年的災損，現在可能會有離農潮，為了避免這些離農潮，就如同我剛才提到的，從一般的果實作物到多年生的木本作物，如果我們不給他們一個最基本救助的話，我相信離農潮是會出現的，所以我還是要拜託農業部儘快去做類似的認定。","再來是關於災後貸款，抱歉，我待會要講比較快一點，然後再請次長統一回應。災後貸款包含6個月的免息，我認為立意很好，可是很多受災農民在災前為了響應政府政策來提升競爭力，像是申請了輔導農糧業經營貸款去增設網室，或者是申請農機貸款去購買設備，可是這些溫室、農機等生財工具在一夜之間基本上都成了廢鐵，所以這個時候是零收入，但還是要繼續償還這些既有的貸款利息。關於這個部分，災前已經申請各種政策型的貸款，是不是能夠比照災後貸款，給予至少半年的利息減免或者是緩繳？我知道這兩個貸款體系不同，但這次是特例，我們希望專案處理，可不可以請次長給我們一些簡短的回應？"],["杜次長文珍：好，簡單三點回應，就從最後面來看？"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["杜次長文珍：第一點，因為現在有農損，而他借的錢若要他再繳款，不管是利息或是本金都會有壓力，所以我們現在正在研議，不管是哪一種，讓他們結合在一起，先前借的或現在新借的我們都一致拉長，延緩或是免息期限，這樣對農民來說也能有喘息空間，不然實在是很嚴重。第二點，因為他們現在沒有收入，沒收入怎麼辦？所以中間這段的專案補助我們也會來想辦法，特別是長年生的，他們現在種植可能今年沒辦法收成，明年也不知道什麼時候，因此這段的專案性補助我們也會來處理。第三點是委員第一個提到的，現在最要緊的是協助農民趕快清園也好、復原也好，只有把現場處理好，才可以讓他們安心，這是第一要緊的事，所以包括清運或協調現場人員幫忙補助、油料、水電，這些我們都會幫忙處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我最開始的問題是，一些像是香蕉這種大規模的作物，每公頃現在還是8萬元的補助，這其實跟10年前差不多一樣。"],["杜次長文珍：我們會用專案來處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：把它提高啦！"],["杜次長文珍：會專案處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：對啦！"],["杜次長文珍：專案來處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：就這一個用專案，好不好？用專案，我們先救急。"],["杜次長文珍：我們趕快來處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝次長。","接續請劉建國召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163187","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163187","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b98575e0e7cfcc7a796557e529aa6299d4c223c22ec92c82f31c39f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:56:53 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而只是這幾個孩子在哭嗎今天不是只有這些學生耶你看這很嚴重的可是我要問你一件事情"},{"start":247.219,"end":255.766,"text":"教育部在審查IRB的時候他們會知道他們會有足夠的專業去知道說IRB委員要聘請哪一些領域嗎他們會知道每天抽血三次連續抽血14天而這樣子的抽血行為對被抽血人的健康風險會有什麼樣的影響嗎教育部會有這個專業嗎教育部會有這個能力嗎你有給他任何行政指導嗎"},{"start":277.043,"end":283.985,"text":"你們衛福部不但沒有給他們任何行政指導我現在要講衛福部就是你所謂的依法行政裡面讓教育部讓台師大讓這些孩子這樣子在脅迫的狀況下恐懼的狀況下在那裡哭不得已才跑出來陳情讓他們哭的始作俑者我告訴你就是你們衛福部看這個公文"},{"start":307.827,"end":309.047,"text":"看這個公文來護理人員法解釋會編 108年好 那看你們的行政函式誰允許教育部來抽血 不需要專業的人力然後誰認為這個不是輔助醫療行為非侵入性 即便侵入性也沒關係是你們衛福部 101年因為"},{"start":337.234,"end":353.09,"text":"人體研究法通過以後大量的人體研究然後大家講說誰可以執行抽血的動作大家就寫公文來問你衛福部衛福部告訴大家你們不要假裝你不知道啦這個事情你們都知道啦"},{"start":354.131,"end":361.698,"text":"衛福部人家所詢學校護理人員如果是由學校護理人員受託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣他的釋法性應該是什麼最後一個所以你們說衛福部說研究計畫進行人體抽血抽樣非屬醫療行為也不是醫療輔助行為"},{"start":380.134,"end":401.968,"text":"讓他們可以亂找人有人來抽血抽到手發抖的不是校戶連不是校戶連叔叔伯伯阿姨是誰來抽血這些孩子都不知道抽到很痛在那裡哭一天抽三次連續抽14天讓孩子暴露在風險之下的就是這一張公文函式"},{"start":403.349,"end":431.668,"text":"這一張公文好像是有講說至學校護理人員 如果是學校護理人員系授託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣上階計畫應經人體研究法相關規定審查通過 使得為之OK看起來是什麼意思 不知道欸 不知道欸他是說校務可以抽 要放到計畫裡面審查通過就可以問題是 你這張函是憑啥這樣子說"},{"start":433.369,"end":451.112,"text":"你的外服部的這一張公文等於是法規了命令了他有法律未接法律效力你們今天一直講依法依法你們幫助台師大逃避法律的規範就是你們這一張函式不要再多說了你們的你們都很清楚醫事司司長自己也很清楚"},{"start":460.154,"end":464.138,"text":"你們今天在這裡為七成這麼多 你不敢說的就是因為你副師長講了 副師長受訪 劉玉京說研究中的抽血並不是醫療行為 也不是醫療輔助行為但因攸關受試者保護 必須要由校護或醫檢師執行"},{"start":481.422,"end":504.718,"text":"144就是根據這一張函釋來的啦好 這個函釋的見解是這樣子我現在就講說奇怪了 這個函釋合法嗎這個函釋合理嗎這個函釋最大的問題就是對於涉及需要抽血的研究計畫進行抽血的人是沒有任何資格條件的限制"},{"start":505.518,"end":510.122,"text":"而且是完全沒有規定的 只要IRB計畫審查通過就可以了因為人家來問你說校戶可不可以抽你們說只要放在計畫裡面有就可以了那你們沒有說校戶以外的人不能抽 事實上有你們就是說不是醫療行為 不是醫療輔助行為每個人都可以來執行抽血的任務你校戶要來抽的話放在計畫裡面通過就可以了"},{"start":532.875,"end":556.661,"text":"阿貓阿狗來抽也可以放到IRB計畫裡面通過就可以了你們憑什麼這麼說 憑什麼你們憑什麼把這一張公文還是法律的依據在哪裡讓你可以允許讓這些孩子這樣子讓這些人暴露在健康的風險之下"},{"start":558.019,"end":565.185,"text":"憑什麼連續一天抽三次 連續十四天有風險的行為你們讓他合法化 憑什麼來 學長阿姨就可以抽"},{"start":570.686,"end":598.084,"text":"我先講一下第一件事情校護是護理人員也就是醫事人員我不講我不講校護了我現在你的這張函式是阿貓阿狗學長阿姨通通可以來抽沒有我覺得這是對於法令這邊我們在講的是本來人體研究法裡面的IRB就會進行受試者保護所以所有的東西必須程序這邊IRB這邊的在審查每一個計劃案的時候"},{"start":600.926,"end":619.719,"text":"我們人體研究法你們不需要訂出任何的行政指引給要做研究因為你把所有研究計畫的把關機制都交給要做研究的那個計畫的主持人的他的目的事業主管機關去核定去管理去監督IRB也交給他們"},{"start":622.521,"end":627.225,"text":"你們衛福部在人體研究法讓你們當主管機關之後你不用訂出任何的遵循的行政指導嗎你不用訂出任何的執法嗎來讓教育部搞不好還有體育部未來的體育部搞不好還有國科位"},{"start":641.578,"end":661.721,"text":"搞不好其他的農業部也可以來提研究計畫你認為他們有足夠的專業他們知道IRB要聘請哪種委員嗎你們衛福部作為人體研究法的主管機關難道不用訂出相關的行政指導給這一些"},{"start":662.722,"end":672.907,"text":"目的是業主管機關嗎?你剛才說的都不符合裡面你們怠惰了這麼久,從一百二零一一年是吧,完成立法"},{"start":675.082,"end":703.501,"text":"2011年完成立法到現在都沒有做出任何行政指導放任放任這一些目的世界主管機關不知道把關的住把關不住隨便你到這一次事件爆發才知道衛福部不但是這麼的瀆職而且台師大案件凸顯了這一個101年你們含釋的不合理且沒有辦法保護受試者權益的缺陷"},{"start":704.981,"end":729.57,"text":"這個事件凸顯了你們怠乎職責然後你們的韓式不但沒有保護到這些受試者的權益而且還推他們入火坑所以你們難道不應該針對執行人體研究特別是收案地點不是在醫療院所的研究涉及到抽血的行為人員的資格框定做出清楚明確"},{"start":730.53,"end":758.393,"text":"而且要符合受試者權益保障的任何規範來給目的事業主管機關當指導嗎而且基於衛福部作為人體研究法規的主管機關三讀以後當時學校啦其他部會啦其他研究機構啦他們的研究案例不像現在這麼多所以經過了十幾年了"},{"start":760.094,"end":776.635,"text":"你們還繼續拿舊的韓式出來舊地合法化台師大這一個根本就是聽不下去合法不合情也不合理的合理的舊的韓式法規啦但不合情也不合理"},{"start":778.697,"end":805.64,"text":"的這種狀況 你們難道不用再檢討嗎還是像你們次長講的第一時間先甩鍋給教育部跟監察院不是我 我沒有 不關我的事跟衛福部無關就是台師大的這個案例才反映了你們這個含釋才了解到衛福部是今天讓這麼多孩子在你們那裡哭"},{"start":807.239,"end":818.586,"text":"然後才是今天這一種不違反倫理的假倫理的規範的這種研究案啦可以繼續在那裡執行"},{"start":820.714,"end":840.786,"text":"今天受試者參與研究是醫學研究進步的關鍵所有的受試者都應該在要知情同意的前提之下而且要理解自己參與研究的內容和權益今天還有你們的責任喔 還有一個喔他不准他退出他不准人家退出"},{"start":848.12,"end":871.792,"text":"然後用受教權人權被威脅這個你們不用訂出任何的規範嗎所有的研究計畫都要他們都送一個執行同意書出來被迫了那他要檢舉要去哪裡檢舉"},{"start":873.837,"end":899.224,"text":"本來在計畫裡面都有所以我們會強調被迫了要去哪裡檢舉當他們被脅迫不能畢業會怕他要去檢舉這個其實回到檢舉機制在哪裡他敢向學校檢舉嗎本來就可以本來就可以要去哪裡然後連記者去年就幫他們開記者會還是六個月前就幫他們開記者會連立委都幫他們開過了"},{"start":900.484,"end":904.246,"text":"你們有看到嗎?立委開記者會的時候已經表示他們是被脅迫的為什麼你們沒有主動關心?當他說我人體研究計畫我被強迫抽血我用畢業學分被威脅而曝光了立委也在立法院質詢也開記者會了"},{"start":921.86,"end":929.606,"text":"已經好幾個月以前了,不是現在這一波請問你衛福部為什麼沒有作為?請問你劉岳平司長,都視若無睹捏很難受的,劉司長要來立法院這麼壞,很難受的啦"},{"start":939.185,"end":955.539,"text":"視若無睹捏這樣要怎麼做 保證你怎麼視若無睹 你做保證多久啊他開記者會的時候 立委這個爆料的時候 質詢的時候教育委員會的委員爆料開記者會的時候 你們做了什麼事 你們做了什麼事那時候已經違反人體研究法所有的規範了 你做了什麼事"},{"start":962.469,"end":974.498,"text":"包委員 這個要調查是要去調查我們計劃組織有沒有按照IRB對 那你調查了嗎從第一次曝光開記者會 曝光到現在你剛才劉悅平還在講這個IRB內容你們不知道要去調查已經經過半年了 你現在還要去調查你們不動於衝啦 不當一回事啦"},{"start":987.368,"end":994.671,"text":"你們就是不當一回事 無動於衷那你告訴我那你告訴我那你告訴我他們的IRB內容審查有沒有問題他們內容說什麼然後他們開記者會 叫立委開記者會說他們被強迫 他們要退出 他們被威脅你們又做了什麼你們做了什麼 這半年多來你們做了什麼"},{"start":1013.851,"end":1037.564,"text":"第一件事情因為教育部已經開始做處理所以我們才會是說那這樣子的話應該是等教育部給我們他的報告然後整體的機制來做一期的檢討現在就是層層掩護 層層的壓下來而才會有這一第二波的爆料和第二波的記者會"},{"start":1039.488,"end":1056.755,"text":"你還在講說第一波的時候教育部已經調查了所以你們就不管了你現在是在說笑的 你在說笑的柏定你什麼時候再完成你們這一張不合理的韓式的漏洞的重新檢討柏定這一個韓式到現在還可以適用嗎 還適當嗎第一個我們馬上來處理那個所有發生的問題 包括這個韓式我們馬上"},{"start":1071.117,"end":1084.345,"text":"不用了 我們一個月就來好 很好那你們需不需要訂出更多的行政指導給其他的目的事業主管機關我們會再重申你們要不要再去重新的檢討檢視你們人體研究法有沒有更多其實是需要衛福部訂出來的法規好的"},{"start":1093.931,"end":1106.359,"text":"其他目的事業主管機關在做監督在做IRB審查的時候他們可以有所依循你們是不是應該要主動做更多啊有沒有檢討空間有一定有檢討空間因為事情已經發生表示說我們所有的相關的單位都應該要盡責任的去把它改善"},{"start":1116.826,"end":1121.927,"text":"不要再有下一次的發生我看你們劉月餅好像就覺得不當一回事還很想變啦我現在講說善意的為醫學或為科學進步去貢獻自己的受試者不應該在醫院參與研究有合格的這個"},{"start":1138.523,"end":1157.088,"text":"醫療人員抽血而在醫院和在社區參與研究卻有任由沒有受過訓練還邊抽血邊發抖的這一些人來抽這不是回報善意而且熱心參與研究的受試者該得到的對待當然"},{"start":1158.988,"end":1170.342,"text":"我很熱心的我很善意的我要回饋我們的醫學研究了那我去醫院抽我就有合格的人幫我抽而我到醫院醫療院所以外的你們就容許他讓這種阿貓阿狗邊抽血邊發抖的人來幫他們抽"},{"start":1176.589,"end":1202.216,"text":"這是不應該的這不是回報這一些善意的人要參與研究願意參與研究的人該有的這個回饋是的 是的我們如果一定會協助去調查如果有違反IRB的該設救責的一定 ME的救責而且要我們一定會檢討整個制度怎麼樣把它改善得更好對 人還有很多制度面是你們應該要扛起來要做更多沒問題我們應該要負這個責任謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時56分）謝謝主席，主席，你剛剛講了14分鐘。好，謝謝，我請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天有很多委員質詢臺師大女足球隊被教練周台英強迫抽血而且不得退出的這個事件。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["林委員淑芬：關於臺師大可能違反研究倫理的這個案子，你們的林靜儀次長很厲害，在第一時間馬上說這個事件的主角、應該負責的是教育部而不是衛福部，OK，依照人體研究法的規定，的確是這樣子沒有錯。然後接下來次長又說他個人的意見是認為要關注有利害關係權力不對等的狀況，這是非常重要的，所以要特別注意倫理，受試者應該要有明確的知情同意權，然後不可以在被脅迫的狀況下為之，而且要有隨時退出的權利。好，話講得這麼好聽，然後這樣講了以後，我就覺得難道衛福部完全都沒有任何一丁點需要檢討的地方嗎？這個事情完全跟衛福部都沒有關係嗎？我今天聽了一個早上，你們的劉越萍司長很難請，她今天終於來了，劉越萍司長今天有講，他的論述更簡單，他說這個事情都應該要照研究計畫的目的事業主管機關也就是教育部，他們有審查了IRB，要看這個研究人員有沒有遵守他們應該遵循的法遵事項，IRB計畫有沒有遵守然後這樣執行。然後第二個是劉越萍馬上說這個IRB計畫不是你們審的，那你們不知道內容，所以也不知道他們有沒有遵守，是吧？你們大概就是這樣講的，對吧？今天整個早上都是這樣講，意思就是說這跟衛福部都沒有關係，是臺師大的問題啦！是教育部的問題啦！事實是不是這樣？部長，你說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員的垂詢，我想任何民眾的健康有受到威脅……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要避重就輕，你今天在這裡，你們所持的理由就是說這個IRB不是你們審的，主管機關是教育部，你們不知道這個研究計畫的IRB內容，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：我們都一切依法辦理。"],["林委員淑芬：很好，我現在就是要跟你講依法辦理的事情，OK，我今天要再跟你講喔！今天國科會副主委出來講了一件事，國科會副主委說全臺灣一百多個大學裡面，而體育學門有申請人體試驗的計畫數，臺師大遠遠超過其他學校的總和，國科會的人體試驗補助計畫，臺師大申請的占了所有補助計畫裡面的六成以上，這是一個非常不尋常的事情，或許這是一個全面性在體育學門長期以來存在的問題。OK，這事情有嚴重嗎？有，為什麼這麼嚴重？誰讓這些學生要透過學分這樣的畢業威脅，讓他們沒有知情同意，不能行使退出權，誰讓這些孩子哭？而只是這幾個孩子在哭嗎？今天不是只有這些學生，你看這很嚴重，可是我要問你一件事情，教育部在審查IRB的時候，他們會有足夠的專業去知道IRB委員要聘請哪一些領域嗎？他們會知道每天抽血3次、連續抽血14天，而這樣子的抽血行為對被抽血人的健康風險會有什麼樣的影響嗎？教育部會有這個專業嗎？教育部會有這個能力嗎？你有給它任何行政指導嗎？你們衛福部不但沒有給他們任何行政指導，我現在要講，衛福部就是你所謂的依法行政裡面，讓教育部、讓臺師大、讓這些孩子這樣子在脅迫的狀況下、恐懼的狀況下，在那裡哭，不得已才跑出來陳情，讓他們哭的始作俑者，我告訴你就是你們衛福部。","看這個公文，護理人員法解釋彙編（108年版），好，然後看你們的行政函釋，誰允許教育部來抽血，不需要專業的人力？然後誰認為這個不是輔助醫療行為，非侵入性，即便侵入性也沒關係？是你們衛福部，101年因為人體研究法通過以後大量的人體研究，然後大家講說誰可以執行抽血的動作，大家就寫公文來問你衛福部，衛福部告訴大家，你們不要假裝你不知道，這個事情你們都知道，衛福部，人家所詢如果是由學校護理人員受託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣，它的適法性應該是什麼？最後一個，所以你們衛福部說，研究計畫進行人體抽血抽樣非屬醫療行為，也不是醫療輔助行為，讓他們可以亂找人，有人來抽血抽到手發抖的，不是校護，連叔叔、伯伯、阿姨是誰來抽血，這些孩子都不知道，抽到很痛在那裡哭，一天抽3次，連續抽14天，讓孩子暴露在風險之下的就是這一張公文函釋。","這一張公文函釋又講說，至學校護理人員……如果是學校護理人員係受託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣，上揭計畫應經人體研究法相關規定審查通過，始得為之。OK，看起來是什麼意思？不知道欸！它是說校護可以抽，要放在計畫裡面，審查通過就可以，問題是你這張函釋是憑啥這樣子說？衛福部的這一張公文等於是法規了、命令了，它有法律位階、法律效力，你們今天一直講依法、依法，你們幫助臺師大逃避法律的規範，就是你們這一張函釋，不要在這裡裝了，你們都很清楚，醫事司司長自己也很清楚，你們今天在這裡，有這麼多立委質詢，你們不敢說的就是因為你副司長講了，副司長受訪，劉玉菁說研究中的抽血並不是醫療行為，也不是醫療輔助行為，但攸關受試者保護，必須要由校護或醫檢師執行，醫事司就是根據這一張函釋來的。好，這個函釋的見解是這樣子，我現在就講說奇怪了，這個函釋合法嗎？這個函釋合理嗎？這個函釋最大的問題就是對於涉及需要抽血的研究計畫，進行抽血的人是沒有任何資格條件的限制，而且是完全沒有規定的，只要IRB計畫審查通過就可以了，因為人家打來問你說校護可不可以抽，你們說只要放在計畫裡面有就可以了，那你們沒有說校護以外的人不能抽，事實上有，你們就是說不是醫療行為、不是醫療輔助行為，每個人都可以來執行抽血的任務，你校護要來抽，放在計畫裡面通過就可以了，阿貓、阿狗來抽也可以，放到IRB計畫裡面通過就可以了，你們憑什麼這麼說？憑什麼？司長來，你來說，部長你來說，你們憑什麼把這一張公文的函釋……法律的依據在哪裡，讓你可以允許讓這些孩子這樣子，讓這些人暴露在健康的風險之下，憑什麼連續一天抽3次，連續14天，有風險的行為，你們讓它合法化，憑什麼？學長、阿姨就可以抽？"],["劉司長越萍：我先講一下，第一件事情，校護是護理人員，也就是醫事人員。"],["林委員淑芬：我不講校護了，你的這張函釋是阿貓、阿狗、學長、阿姨統統可以來抽。"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，我覺得這是對於法令這邊，我們在講的是本來人體研究法裡面的IRB就會進行受試者保護，所以所有的程序，IRB在審查每一個計畫案的時候就應該就這個地方來做處理。"],["林委員淑芬：你講得好聽，來，部長，我問你，人體研究法你們不需要訂出任何的行政指引給要做研究……因為你把所有研究計畫的把關機制都交給要做研究的計畫主持人的目的事業主管機關去核定、去管理、去監督，IRB也交給他們，你們衛福部在人體研究法讓你們當主管機關之後，你不用訂出任何遵循的行政指導嗎？你不用訂出任何的子法嗎？來讓教育部，搞不好還有未來的體育部，搞不好還有國科會，搞不好還有其他的農業部也可以來提研究計畫，你認為他們有足夠的專業，他們知道IRB要聘請哪種委員嗎？你們衛福部作為人體研究法的主管機關，難道不用訂出相關的行政指導給這一些目的事業主管機關嗎？你在這裡說話都不負責任，你們怠惰了這麼久，從2011年，是吧？完成立法，2011年完成立法，到現在都沒有做出任何行政指導，放任這一些目的事業主管機關，不知道把關得住、把關不住，隨便你，到這一次事件爆發才知道，衛福部不但是這麼地瀆職，而且臺師大案件凸顯了這個101年你們函釋的不合理，且沒有辦法保護受試者權益的缺陷，這個事件凸顯了你們怠忽職責，然後你們函釋不但沒有保護到這些受試者的權益，而且還推他們入火坑，所以你們難道不應該針對執行人體研究，特別是收案地點不是在醫療院所的研究，涉及到抽血的行為、人員的資格框定，做出清楚明確而且要符合受試者權益保障的任何規範，來給目的事業主管機關當指導嗎？而且基於衛福部作為人體研究法規的主管機關，三讀以後，當時學校啦、其他部會啦或其他研究機構啦，他們的研究案類不像現在這麼多，所以經過了十幾年了，你們還繼續拿舊的函釋出來，就地合法化，臺師大這一個根本就是聽不下去，合法、不合情也不合理的，合你的舊的函釋法規啦，但不合情也不合理的這一種狀況，你們難道不用再檢討嗎？還是像你們次長講的，第一時間先甩鍋給教育部跟監察院說「不是我，我沒有，不關我的事，跟衛福部無關」，就是臺師大的案例才反映了你們這個函釋，才了解到是衛福部今天讓這麼多孩子在那裡哭，然後才是今天這種不違反倫理的、假倫理規範的這種研究案可以繼續執行。部長，今天受試者參與研究是醫學研究進步的關鍵，所有的受試者都應該要在知情同意的前提之下，而且要理解自己參與研究的內容和權益，今天還有你們的責任喔！還有一個喔！部長，他不准他退出，他不准人家退出，然後讓他的受教權、人權被威脅，這個你們不用訂出任何的規範嗎？你們難道不要所有研究計畫都送知情同意書出來，如果被迫了，那他檢舉要去哪裡檢舉？"],["劉司長越萍：本來在計畫裡面都有，所以我們會強調協助……"],["林委員淑芬：被迫了要去哪裡檢舉？當他們被脅迫不能畢業會怕，他要去哪裡檢舉？"],["劉司長越萍：這個其實回到這件事情……"],["林委員淑芬：檢舉機制在哪裡？"],["劉司長越萍：這個事情……"],["林委員淑芬：他敢向學校檢舉嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：本來就可以，可是會有難度……"],["林委員淑芬：本來就可以，要去哪裡？連記者去年就幫他們開記者會，還是六個月前就幫他們開記者會，連立委都幫他們開過了，你們有看到嗎？立委開記者會的時候已經表示他們是被脅迫的，為什麼你們沒有主動關心？當他說人體研究計畫，我被強迫抽血，我畢業學分被威脅，而曝光了立委也在立法院質詢，也開記者會了，已經好幾個月以前囉！不是現在這一波，請問衛福部為什麼沒有作為？請問你劉越萍司長都視若無睹，好難請！劉司長要來立法院這裡備詢，好難請啦！視若無睹，這樣要怎麼辦？","部長，你怎麼會視若無睹？你當部長多久了？他開記者會的時候、立委爆料的時候、質詢的時候、教育委員會的委員爆料開記者會的時候，你們做了什麼事？你們做了什麼事？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為……"],["林委員淑芬：那時候已經違反人體研究法所有的規範了，你做了什麼事？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個要調查是要去調查計畫主持人有沒有按照IRB……"],["林委員淑芬：對，那你調查了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果……"],["林委員淑芬：從第一次開記者會曝光到現在，剛才劉越萍還在講這個IRB內容你們不知道，要去調查，都已經經過半年多了，你現在還在調查，你們無動於衷啦！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，據了解所有……"],["林委員淑芬：不當一回事啦！"],["邱部長泰源：所有這些像教育部他們的IRB……"],["林委員淑芬：你們就是不當一回事，無動於衷！"],["邱部長泰源：他們的IRB委員都是學有專精的……"],["林委員淑芬：那你告訴我，他們的IRB內容審查有沒有問題、他們內容說什麼？然後他們叫立委開記者會，說他們被強迫，他們要退出，他們被威脅，你們又做了什麼？這半年多來，你們做了什麼？"],["劉司長越萍：第一件事情，因為教育部已經開始處理，所以我們才會說這樣子的話，應該是等教育部給我們他的報告，然後整體的機制再來一起做檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：現在就是層層掩護、層層壓下來，才會有第二波的爆料和第二波的記者會，你還在講第一波的時候教育部已經調查了，所以你們就不管了，你現在是在裝肖仔。","部長，你什麼時候可以完成你們這一張不合理的函釋漏洞的重新檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：好，跟委員報告，我們馬上……"],["林委員淑芬：這一個函釋到現在還可以適用嗎？還適當嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，我們馬上亡羊補牢來處理所有發生的問題……"],["林委員淑芬：函釋，我要講制度面……"],["邱部長泰源：包括這個函釋我們馬上一個月就來檢討……"],["林委員淑芬：好，很好，那你們需不需要訂出更多的行政指導給其他目的事業主管機關？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會再重申人體……"],["林委員淑芬：你們要不要再去重新的檢討、檢視你們人體研究法有沒有更多其實是需要衛福部訂出來的法規……"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，好的。"],["林委員淑芬：給其他目的事業主管機關做監督、做IRB審查的時候可以有所依循，你們是不是應該要主動做更多啊？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：有沒有檢討空間？"],["邱部長泰源：有，一定有檢討空間，因為事情已經發生，表示我們所有相關單位都應該要盡責任的去改善。"],["林委員淑芬：對，你們劉越萍還在這邊爭辯啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不要再有下一次的發生。"],["林委員淑芬：我看你們劉越萍好像就覺得不當一回事，還很想辯啦！我現在講說善意的為醫學或為科學進步去貢獻自己的受試者，不應該在醫院參與研究有合格的醫療人員抽血，而在醫院以外及在社區參與研究，卻任由沒有受過訓練還邊抽血邊發抖的這一些人來抽，這不是回報善意且熱心參與研究的受試者該得到的對待啦！"],["邱部長泰源：當然，當然。"],["林委員淑芬：我很熱心的、很善意的，我要回饋我們的醫學研究，那我去醫院抽就有合格的人幫我抽，而我到醫院、醫療院所以外的，你們就容許讓這種阿貓、阿狗邊抽血邊發抖的人來幫他們抽，這是不應該的，這不是回報這一些善意的人、要參與研究、願意參與研究的人該有的回饋。"],["邱部長泰源：是的、是的，我們一定會協助調查，如果有違反IRB的，該究責的一定嚴厲究責。"],["林委員淑芬：全部。"],["邱部長泰源：而且我們一定會檢討整個制度，我們會把它改善得更好。"],["林委員淑芬：對，還有很多制度面是你們應該要扛起來、要做更多，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，我們應該要負這個責任，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，謝謝部長。","你用了19分鐘。"],["林委員淑芬：不好意思，但是制度要改正最重要。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["主席：這個應該要有專業證照的醫療人員才可以，應該的啦！這樣是不對的啦！","我們請陳冠廷質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163183","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163183","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b98571656c728a4da7aec7e529aa6299d4c22ee40b7cd06659382a1ba94de77a37a3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:14:04 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謝謝主席那先請我們勞動部 洪部長請洪部長還有我們勞動條件司 黃師長請師長還有勞動關係司 王師長"},{"start":22.858,"end":25.059,"text":"台豐丹納斯重創嘉義台南電感導斷2000多支台電的員工當然很辛苦 晝夜不休"},{"start":39.406,"end":68.096,"text":"搶休那現在有台電的員工家屬也有反應先生一個多禮拜在外奔波也希望能夠早日回家休息那當然網友聽了也都鼻酸那這段這段時間台電也釋放了很多台電員工在晚間並排用餐的辛勞的照片那當然社會上也引起很大的共勉那當然我們行政院也打蛇錘棍上說這一次的"},{"start":68.556,"end":78.148,"text":"特別條例沒有撥補1000億是愧對台電的員工那但是在昨天7月16號台灣電力產業工會串聯台電"},{"start":81.539,"end":105.705,"text":"新營區高雄區的企業工會發布聲明說呼籲台電儘速釐清電感導斷的原因也喊話中央拼命工作甚至被工作的時候還有吃飯的時候還要擺拍那他們也說並不是為了讓政府高層拿來做撥補台電遷移政治的大文宣的素材"},{"start":106.857,"end":123.594,"text":"那針對這部分請問一下我們勞動部那基層台電員工反映被要求工作的時候吃飯的時候要擺拍那其實這應該也是超出他的工作範圍那有沒有違反我們勞動法令或者勞動契約這個跟圖片說明其實當然我們有看到這個"},{"start":131.662,"end":144.207,"text":"電力產工他們相關的意見但我們也看到台電公司的工會也提出了很不一樣的看法"},{"start":145.655,"end":162.089,"text":"所以我想一定要去說這一定是擺拍或者是有沒有違反我想這個我想我們都應該是要站在台電基層工員工的角度來去做思考要給予台電的基層的員工更多的尊重"},{"start":162.87,"end":178.71,"text":"那跟我們協助那部長你看一下這是我們網路有流傳他們的截圖台電的長官有要求他們在事故搶修拍照的作業流程連要橫拍 豎拍都有講究那"},{"start":179.43,"end":195.67,"text":"这一部分我们想了解针对劳动部认为这一部分有没有强迫劳工做工作以外的事情而且毕竟这是基层工会员工他们反映的我相信台队员工他又反映出来我相信他们应该是不会说谎的"},{"start":199.028,"end":226.511,"text":"對不起我沒有看到這個我可能要再看一下這些相關的資料但我還是覺得最重要的原則是對於基層員工的支持跟尊重我覺得這是最重要的事情所以我想請教為什麼希望能夠編列一千億的這個特別預算來去協助台電其實也是基於這個想法我今天是希望勞動部去了解一下台電裡面有沒有這樣子的事情發生那畢竟你看他把這個"},{"start":227.512,"end":244.768,"text":"截圖已經都截出來了你看到台電的長官要求他們要這樣去做然後員工也反映他認為這基本上已經不是他工作範圍的他們已經很辛苦了結果還要在工作的時候吃飯的時候長官還要求他們要去擺拍"},{"start":245.368,"end":260.375,"text":"那他也已經反映出來我希望勞動部去了解一下有沒有這樣的情形那這樣的情形是不是有違反了這個勞動法令或者勞動契約的部分我想各種勞工的聲音其實我們都會去了解那"},{"start":262.677,"end":281.747,"text":"還是那個原則希望給員工最多的尊重跟支持包括預算上的支持了解一下有沒有這樣的問題那如果這樣的情形那員工已經反映了是不是有違反這個勞動契約的問題我希望部長們去幫我們了解一下那我們可以來開始了解一下"},{"start":282.327,"end":309.774,"text":"後來這個事情也在發酵那經濟部有發聲明表示說台灣電力工會的會員人數近2.9萬人那涵蓋大概99%的公司同仁才是代表多數同仁意見的工會而台灣電力產業工會僅只有會員百餘人的團體那我請問一下部長那現在中央經濟部"},{"start":311.374,"end":317.663,"text":"他是最大的慣老闆嗎他百育人的團體他難道不代表員工的聲音嗎我其實不會是這樣看的就是各種不同員工的聲音其實都應該看待所以"},{"start":328.57,"end":345.842,"text":"所以你認為經濟部發這個新聞稿對嗎那經濟部說新聞稿說他這個只是百餘人的小團體那就是繼我們之前部長郭智慧嗆台電的員工你看不下可以離開啊那到現在你經濟部還發這個新聞稿說基層員工自發組織的工會是小團體那小團體不用照顧嗎"},{"start":354.448,"end":371.813,"text":"跟陀苑說明,我想這個意思應該不是這樣,我自己在看到,我有看到這一篇,但我的理解比較是說其實應該要,也應該要重視這個電力工會,尤其是企業的電力工會他們的聲音跟他們的看法,我認為他的意思比較是這樣子"},{"start":372.293,"end":395.736,"text":"好那我請問一下我們勞動關係是哪些人的意見就不需要重視好那我問一下王司長經濟公會的人數也很多那我們也應該要重視所以我覺得經濟部不應該發這個新聞稿說他只是100多人的團體那他不是歧視這100多人嗎對不對你不應該發這新聞稿啊我的解讀是他是說我們應該要重視員工擺明他的聲音他居然第一時間說他這是小偷"},{"start":395.776,"end":414.43,"text":"回的解讀是他表達的事情是我們應該重視將近三萬的人的企業工會他們的聲音跟看法對啊百餘人也是員工也是勞工啊應該也是要重視怎麼第一時間說他是小工會所以我問一下我們勞動關係師王師長台電基層員工自行發起的組織工會台灣電力產業工會跟我們台電新營區處企業工會台電高雄區處企業工會"},{"start":424.098,"end":428.114,"text":"這些數是合法合規申請成立的正式公會組織"},{"start":430.936,"end":459.995,"text":"任委員報告目前除了台電力工會企業工會是過去長期就是一個大的企業工會然後因為在5月19號我們工會法新細則已經失效了所以到目前為止有一個是台灣電力新營區營業處企業工會有登記剩下的部分目前沒有好那他這有登記就是合法嗎對那有合法那我們經濟部資防這樣子質疑工會那不就是擺明在打壓工會嗎"},{"start":461.536,"end":471.843,"text":"是不是有構成不當的勞動行為那個 所以我說這篇我比較認為他是在重視台灣電力工會的意見啊"},{"start":473.308,"end":497.427,"text":"沒關係部長我今天提出來只是希望針對這一部分因為我們勞動部應該是要照顧勞工啊我想了解一下那如果針對這樣子的部分請勞動部幫我們了解一下它這樣子有沒有違反工會第35條的不當勞動的行為到時候了解一下給我們回覆它這樣子有沒有構成"},{"start":498.666,"end":523.596,"text":"我們當然可以來瞭解一下可是我的意思是說就那篇我有看了可是他的意思是說希望大家去重視台灣電力工會的意見跟想法沒關係啊 部長我們今天提出來因為這也是基層工會他們有提出這個反應他們已經有這個心聲那我是認為說勞動部是主管單位應該去了解一下有沒有這樣子的情形然後你認為我們可以來瞭解一下"},{"start":524.556,"end":550.309,"text":"對我希望說勞動部來重視畢竟他們已經有凸顯這一塊我覺得勞動部主管單位希望這個站在勞工的立場幫我們來了解一下勞動部一定是站在勞工的立場我們不會分哪一個工會那大工會小工會但我們一定是站在勞工的立場為勞工的利益來捍衛我是希望經濟部在發這新聞稿的時候要注意不能說好像說他這個是大工會那是小工會你感覺你就是歧視小工會小工會也是勞工啊"},{"start":551.691,"end":556.005,"text":"好 沒關係 部長先幫我們了解一下那請我們衛福部邱部長"},{"start":562.284,"end":590.546,"text":"好 周部長我們衛福部今年一直推動我們護理人力改革包含今年調薪3%還有我們也編列了擴增公職護理人員的預算但是我們知道錢只是一次性的原因其實制度還有工作環境的改善應該才是最主要的那請問一下針對今年加薪3%我們有實際增加了多少人力嗎"},{"start":592.523,"end":612.35,"text":"那尤其在人力最缺乏的夜班跟急重症的這一塊有沒有獲得改善報委員您是在提部醫院這個部分嗎還是整個護理你調心3%嘛調心3%有沒有效果公職的嘛是有沒有實際的效果"},{"start":615.069,"end":643.563,"text":"因為醫院的整個護理人醫護的人力其實要包括全國的啦齁應該是要包括公司沒關係到時候看一下我想了解一下你們做的這部分對於實際人力上有沒有改善齁那我們要了解一下我們三班護病比的獎勵全台灣有27家醫院齁這個獎勵是掛零的那代表什麼是不是這些醫院他根本沒有請到夜班的護理師"},{"start":644.443,"end":671.21,"text":"好 謝謝委員 隨請這個招募司司長跟報告一下我們現在27家裡面有一家是醫學中心12家是區醫院 那其他都是地區醫院那這個醫學中心它的問題是在於它過去是區域 然後升到醫學 所以它標準增加了那其中有一家區域是從地區醫院進來的所以因為標準增加 所以它沒有辦法達到那大部分的這個地區醫院"},{"start":672.441,"end":691.628,"text":"很多大概有八九家呢其實是因為他完全沒有通報他的住院人日那也就是說可能他沒有收住病人對那我們看一下27家掛聯然後這個獎勵最多的前五名其實都是醫學中心那我們"},{"start":692.848,"end":719.91,"text":"反觀這些獎勵金掛鈴的幾乎都是地區醫院跟區域醫院那最主要大部分都在偏鄉那所以我們擔心這些偏鄉的醫院本來就存在人力短缺的問題那針對這一部分我們有沒有來追蹤這些醫院人力的問題跟委員報告就是地區醫院這個11家裡面就是有8家"},{"start":720.646,"end":728.612,"text":"他就是目前我們看起來他都沒有通報他的三班的病人數跟護理人力那他們的護理人員數也都是在20到30之間所以這個我們現在也會再進一步了解他個別的原因是什麼不過從目前的掌握的資料是他可能也沒有收住病人對 因為我現在比較擔心因為我自己選區裡面"},{"start":745.265,"end":758.934,"text":"有五間醫院那這裡面只有部桃新屋分院有拿到這個獎勵金那針對這些吊車尾的這些醫院衛福部到底有沒有提供輔導機制來輔導這些偏鄉的醫院目前那個針對個別性的我們針對個別性有在做一個更針對個別性的瞭解那看看用什麼方法來協助這樣子"},{"start":771.328,"end":791.314,"text":"那還有這些醫院拿了巨額的獎勵金之後我們看衛福部這個平台他們有沒有回報我們怎麼看不到這公開的資料也看不到這獎勵金到底是醫院拿走還是有實質回饋到我們基層的人員身上目前這個獎勵金是在6月19號播出去的那我們的播出去的跟原來的規定就是說醫院要把這個獎勵金呢"},{"start":800.978,"end":818.719,"text":"針對個別醫院的這個缺口做差異性的流論措施的分配那目前各家醫院都有不同的設計大概每家醫院我們現在了解是大家醫院應該都已經準備好那個要做的方法了但是接下來他們就會公告在醫院裡面"},{"start":819.9,"end":843.701,"text":"因為我們現在比較擔心就是因為我們選區比較偏向都是一些地區醫院小醫院那而且這互併比的比例跟條性3%而且像我們地方沒有這些醫院都是一些診所那他又不適用這些診所所以我們反而擔心這些基層的診所像我的觀音區啊你獎勵金跟"},{"start":844.562,"end":869.062,"text":"跟調薪都是針對醫院反而基層的診所這些都沒有照顧到會不會這些人員反而都跑到醫院去變成我們基層診所這些待遇影響到反而變成他的人力影響更大現在目前那個診所的獎勵健保署有相關的專案在做支持作為他的醫護人力的這個留任"},{"start":869.793,"end":889.28,"text":"好 我希望我們來注意一下因為我們現在比較擔心你這樣子的方式變成像我們這些比較偏鄉的基層診所反而缺工會更嚴重所以希望我們衛福部針對這些看有沒有一些輔導機制有沒有一些改善的方法能夠注意到我們偏鄉這些基層診所的人力"},{"start":890.04,"end":906.989,"text":"包委員我們觀音鄉那一邊的確偏鄉的醫療資源是比較需要加強我們會去了解這些地區醫院他們實際上的狀況那在診所的一個協助方面我們也會全力來協助讓偏鄉的民眾能夠得到"},{"start":907.83,"end":925.449,"text":"對 因為我擔心你這個條性跟獎勵金到時候反而影響基層診所造成他人力更短缺所以這部分希望部長幫我們了解一下我們不同的地區有不同的文化所以我們會去特別做對啊 要多輔導啦不然這些基層診所人力更短缺對於他們醫療資源更匱乏好 謝謝好 謝謝部長好 謝謝土耳其 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時14分）謝謝主席。先請勞動部洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["涂委員權吉：勞動條件司黃司長，還有勞動關係司王司長。"],["主席：好，黃司長、王司長。"],["洪部長申翰：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。丹娜絲颱風重創嘉義、臺南，電桿倒斷兩千多支，台電員工當然很辛苦，晝夜不休在搶修，現在台電員工的家屬也有反映，先生一個多禮拜在外奔波，也希望能夠早日回家休息，當然網友聽了也都鼻酸，這一段時間台電釋出了很多台電員工在晚間並排用餐的辛勞照片，社會上引起很大的共鳴，行政院也打蛇隨棍上，說這一次的特別條例沒有撥補1,000億是愧對台電的員工，但是在昨天7月16日台灣電力產業工會串聯台電新營區、高雄區的企業工會發布聲明，呼籲台電儘速釐清電桿倒斷的原因，也喊話中央，拚命工作，甚至工作的時候、吃飯的時候還要擺拍，並不是為了讓政府高層拿來做撥補台電千億的政治大內宣素材。","針對這部分，請問一下勞動部，台電基層員工反映，被要求工作的時候、吃飯的時候要擺拍，其實這應該是超出他的工作範圍，有沒有違反勞動法令或者勞動契約？"],["洪部長申翰：跟涂委員說明，當然我們有看到電力產工相關的意見，但是也看到台電公司的工會提出很不一樣的看法，所以我想一定要去說這一定是擺拍或者有沒有違反，我想這個……我想我們都應該要站在台電基層員工的角度做思考，給予台電基層員工更多的尊重跟協助。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長你看一下，這是網路流傳的截圖，台電長官要求他們在事故搶修的拍照作業流程，連要橫拍、豎拍都有講究，我們想了解，針對這部分有沒有強迫勞工做工作以外的事情？畢竟這是基層工會員工反映的，我相信他們應該是不會說謊。"],["洪部長申翰：對不起，因為我沒有看到這個，我可能要再看一下這些相關的資料，但我還是覺得最重要的原則還是……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係……"],["洪部長申翰：對於基層員工的支持跟尊重，我覺得這是最重要的事情，所以我想行政院為什麼希望能夠編列1,000億的特別預算來協助台電，其實也是基於這個想法。"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，我今天是希望勞動部去了解一下台電裡面有沒有這樣子的事情發生，畢竟你看截圖已經都截出來了，台電長官要求他們要這樣做，然後員工也反映，這基本上已經不是工作範圍了，他們已經很辛苦了，結果長官還要求他們要在工作的時候、吃飯的時候擺拍，我希望勞動部去了解一下有沒有這樣的情形，這樣的情形是不是有違反勞動法令或者勞動契約的部分？"],["洪部長申翰：我想各種勞工的聲音，其實我們都會去了解，還是那個原則，希望給員工最多的尊重跟支持。"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，我希望部長去了解一下。"],["洪部長申翰：包括預算上的支持。"],["涂委員權吉：了解一下有沒有這樣子的問題，如果這樣的情形，員工已經反映了，是不是有違反勞動契約的問題？希望部長幫我們了解一下。"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來了解一下。"],["涂委員權吉：後來這個事情也再發酵，經濟部發聲明表示台灣電力工會的會員人數近2.9萬人，涵蓋大概99%的公司同仁，才是代表多數同仁意見的工會，而台灣電力產業工會僅只有會員百餘人的團體。我請問一下部長，現在中央經濟部是最大的慣老闆嗎？百餘人的團體難道不代表員工的聲音嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我其實不會是這樣看欸，就是各種不同員工的聲音，其實都應該看待嘛。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！"],["洪部長申翰：所以可能也……所以我覺得……"],["涂委員權吉：所以你認為經濟部發這個新聞稿對嗎？經濟部新聞稿說這個只是百餘人的小團體，那就是繼之前部長郭智輝嗆台電員工：你看不下可以離開啊！到現在經濟部還發這新聞稿說基層員工自發組織的工會是小團體，小團體不用照顧嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟涂委員說明，我想這個意思應該不是這樣，我有看到這一篇，但我的理解比較是說，其實也應該要重視這個電力工會，尤其是企業的電力工會他們的聲音跟看法，我認為它的意思比較是這樣子。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我請問一下勞動關係司。"],["洪部長申翰：並不是說哪些人的意見就不需要重視……"],["涂委員權吉：好，我問一下王司長……"],["洪部長申翰：就是電力工會的人數也很多，我們也應該要重視，它的意思應該是這樣。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我覺得經濟部不應該發這個新聞稿，說它只是一百多人的團體，那不是歧視這一百多人嗎？對不對？不應該發這新聞稿啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我的解讀是，它是說我們應該要重視……"],["涂委員權吉：員工反映他的聲音，它居然第一時間說這是小團體。"],["洪部長申翰：我的解讀是它表達的事情是我們應該重視將近3萬人的企業工會他們的聲音跟看法。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，百餘人也是員工，也是勞工啊！應該也是要重視，怎麼第一時間說它是小工會？所以我問一下勞動關係司王司長，台電基層員工自行發起、組織的工會，台灣電力產業工會跟台電新營區處企業工會、台電高雄區處企業工會，這些是不是合法合規申請成立的正式工會組織？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，目前除了電力工會、企業工會過去長期就是一個大型的企業工會，因為在5月19日工會法施行細則已經失效了，所以到目前為止，有一個是台灣電力新營區營業處企業工會有登記，剩下的部分目前沒有。"],["涂委員權吉：好，它有登記就是合法？"],["王司長厚偉：對。"],["涂委員權吉：有合法，那經濟部資方這樣子質疑工會，不就是擺明在打壓工會嗎？是不是有構成不當的勞動行為？"],["洪部長申翰：涂委員，我比較認為這篇是在重視台灣電力工會的意見。"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，部長，我今天提出來只是希望……"],["洪部長申翰：這個文字……"],["涂委員權吉：針對這部分，因為勞動部應該是要照顧勞工，我想了解一下……"],["洪部長申翰：重視電力工會的意見為什麼叫做打壓工會呢？"],["涂委員權吉：我想了解一下，請勞動部幫我們了解一下，針對這樣的部分，有沒有違反工會法第三十五條的不當勞動行為？請了解一下，到時候給我們回復這樣子有沒有構成。"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然可以來了解一下，可是我的意思是說，那篇我有看了，它的意思是希望大家去重視台灣電力工會的意見跟想法，這樣怎麼會是打壓工會？"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，部長，我們今天提出來，因為這也是基層工會有提出這個反映，他們已經有這個心聲，我是認為勞動部是主管單位，應該去了解一下有沒有這樣子的情形？然後你認為……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來了解。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我希望勞動部來重視，畢竟他們已經有突顯這一塊，我希望勞動部主管單位站在勞工的立場，幫我們來了解一下。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，勞動部一定是站在勞工的立場，我們不會分哪一個工會；大工會或小工會，但我們一定是站在勞工的立場，為勞工的利益來捍衛。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我是希望經濟部發這新聞稿的時候要注意，不能說好像這個是大工會、那是小工會，感覺就是歧視小工會，小工會也是勞工啊。好，沒關係，部長先幫我們了解一下。","請衛福部邱部長。"],["涂委員權吉：邱部長，衛福部今年一直推動護理人力改革，包含今年調薪3%，還有我們也編列了擴增公職護理人員的預算，但是我們知道錢只是一次性的誘因，其實制度、工作環境的改善，應該才是最主要的，請問一下，針對今年加薪3%，有實際增加了多少人力嗎？尤其在人力最缺乏的夜班跟急重症這一塊，有沒有獲得改善？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，您是在提部立醫院這個部分嗎？還是整個護理人員……"],["涂委員權吉：你調薪3%嘛，調薪3%後有沒有效果？"],["邱部長泰源：公職的嗎？是……"],["涂委員權吉：有沒有實際的效果？"],["邱部長泰源：因為醫院的整個醫護人力，其實應該要包括全國的公、私……"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，你到時候看一下，我想了解一下你們做的這部分，實際上對於人力有沒有改善。","也了解一下三班護病比的獎勵，全臺灣有27家醫院獎勵是掛零，那代表什麼？代表這些醫院根本沒有請到夜班的護理師？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員垂詢，請照護司司長報告一下。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們現在27家裡面有一家是醫學中心、12家是區域醫院，其他都是地區醫院，而這個醫學中心的問題是它過去是區域醫院然後升到醫學中心，所以它的標準增加了；其中有一家區域醫院是從地區醫院進來的，因為標準增加，所以它也沒有辦法達到；大部分的地區醫院，大概有八、九家其實是因為完全沒有通報它的住院人日，也就是說它可能沒有收住病人。"],["涂委員權吉：對，那我們看一下，有27家掛零，然後獎勵最多的前五名都是醫學中心，反觀這些獎勵金掛零的幾乎都是地區醫院跟區域醫院，最主要是因為大部分都在偏鄉，所以我們擔心這些偏鄉的醫院本來就存在人力短缺的問題，針對這一部分，你們有沒有追蹤這些醫院人力的問題？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：跟委員報告，這11家地區醫院裡面就有8家，目前我們看起來都是沒有通報它的三班病人數跟護理人力，他們的護理人員數也都是在20到30之間，所以我們也會再進一步了解個別的原因是什麼，不過從目前掌握的資料看來，它可能也沒有收住病人。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我現在比較擔心，我自己選區裡面有5間醫院，其中只有部桃新屋分院有拿到獎勵金，針對這些偏鄉吊車尾的醫院，衛福部到底有沒有提供輔導機制來輔導？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：目前針對個別性有在做了解，然後看看用什麼方法來協助。"],["涂委員權吉：還有這些醫院拿了巨額的獎勵金之後，他們有沒有在衛福部的平台上回報？我們怎麼看不到這些公開資料，也看不到這獎勵金到底是醫院拿走，還是有實質回饋到基層的人員身上？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：目前這個獎勵金是在6月19號撥出去的，原來的規定就是醫院要把這個獎勵金針對個別醫院的缺口做差異性留任措施的分配，目前各家醫院都有不同的設計，我們現在了解的是，大概每家醫院都已經準備好要做的方法了，接下來他們就會公告在醫院裡面。"],["涂委員權吉：我現在比較擔心，就是我的選區比較偏鄉，都是一些診所，護病比跟調薪3%又不適用這些診所，所以我們擔心這些基層診所，像觀音區，你的獎勵金跟調薪都是針對醫院，基層診所都沒有照顧到，會不會使這些診所的人員都跑到醫院去，變成基層診所的待遇影響到它的人力？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：目前對診所的獎勵，健保署有相關的專案在做支持，就是對於它醫護人力的留任。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望你們注意一下，因為我們現在比較擔心這樣的方式會使偏鄉的基層診所缺工更嚴重，所以希望衛福部針對這些偏鄉基層診所有一些輔導機制、改善的方法，幫助他們留住人力。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，像觀音鄉等偏鄉的醫療資源是比較需要加強，我們會去了解這些地區醫院實際的狀況；在診所的協助方面，我們也會全力來協助，讓偏鄉的民眾能夠得到更好的照顧。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為我擔心你這個調薪跟獎勵金到時候反而會影響基層診所，造成它人力更短缺，這一部分希望部長了解一下。"],["邱部長泰源：不同的地區有不同的文化，所以我們會去特別注意。"],["涂委員權吉：對，要多輔導，不然這些基層診所人力更短缺，會使偏鄉醫療資源更匱乏。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝，沒問題。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝部長。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"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劉業平師長護理及健康照護師師長 蔡淑鳳中醫藥師 蘇玉璋師長口腔健康師 張永敏師長護署醫療及社會機構管理委員會 副執行長 賴慧珍"},{"start":1998.463,"end":2023.563,"text":"長崎照護師檢任計政 白山崎好 歡迎文明健康署檢任計政 陳立堅好 歡迎保護服務師科長 邱秀琳好勞動部部長 洪森翰好 歡迎勞動力發展署黃靈毅署長"},{"start":2029.552,"end":2033.297,"text":"職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂 歡迎 歡迎勞動關係師王厚偉師長 歡迎勞動條件及就業平等師黃齊亞師長 歡迎"},{"start":2046.327,"end":2063.811,"text":"財政部常務次長謝玲媛次長歡迎歡迎關稅署副署長趙台安歡迎農業部常務次長杜文珍歡迎農糧署副署長陳啟榮國際事務司科長年利慈"},{"start":2076.615,"end":2091.923,"text":"好,不要齁,站在通頭的好,謝謝,畜牧師副師長周志勳好,歡迎耶穌主祕,這個要怎麼唸?祕,祕智昌,這個名字我要怎麼唸?"},{"start":2099.502,"end":2103.392,"text":"動植物防疫檢疫署副組長齊榮祥"},{"start":2108.434,"end":2137.433,"text":"今天要特別跟大家報告 跟委員報告因為今天中午有萬安演習1點半到2點 我們立完要熄燈的所以我希望在1點之前結束更早的話更好因為我們部長下午要陪總統去任性醫療 萬安演習然後我們洪森漢部長11點要撈跑要去主持大會"},{"start":2139.494,"end":2156.64,"text":"大家都因為這一陣子萬一大家很忙所以今天的質詢一定嚴格質詢嚴格質詢超過一分鐘我就站起來了我們昨天17個人尋答5個多小時"},{"start":2157.952,"end":2182.41,"text":"整個環境部跟經濟部大家都討論得很詳細該衝突的衝突該解釋的解釋非常好昨天那個效果非常好今天一個時間關係所以來我們請衛國部長還有朝中部長還有財政部次長等一下各報告五分鐘我們先請邱部長報告五分鐘"},{"start":2187.901,"end":2197.193,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生今天大案第11屆第三會議社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開前提委員會本部呈要列席報告深感榮幸"},{"start":2198.294,"end":2217.247,"text":"持久因應嚴重災情緊急重大事件醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響提出報告敬請各位委員不吝會議指教依背景氣候變遷導致的極端災害是近年來全球面臨的嚴峻議題面對氣候變遷衝擊健全醫療"},{"start":2222.563,"end":2247.593,"text":"建成緊急醫療應變及自然調度機制時刻不容緩的議題二 醫療緊急應變及自然調度機制A平時緊急醫療服務網絡依據醫院緊急醫療能力分體標準規定其分為中度一般級共205家急救責任醫院提供前天後緊急傷病病患醫療照護同時依生活圈規劃14個急診轉診"},{"start":2250.688,"end":2262.642,"text":"網絡以區域聯網概念提供急診病人向上平行向下轉診以特定緊急傷病患之綠色通道給予急重急重症病人及時適切之轉診服務"},{"start":2266.607,"end":2287.658,"text":"醫療緊急應變機制從丹麥斯颱風發布海上颱風警報後本部啟動緊急應變小組展開緊急醫療應變機制由六區緊急醫療應變中心確認手下急救責任醫院運作情形外本部亦透過全國衛生主管群組和電話通知"},{"start":2289.038,"end":2316.457,"text":"縣市衛生局務必將洗腎以孕產婦完成撤離並於1月14年7月6號中午11時50分前以電話再次提醒截至7月12日12點10急救責任醫院所住緊急傷病患共713人持續調整急重難支付全體健保醫院總額今年持續編列預算調整急重難支付106人至113人共預住"},{"start":2319.718,"end":2334.042,"text":"221.28億元另外反映投入及重症照護的醫事人員辛勞並鼓勵醫院強化急診及住院照護量能及任性健保醫事人在疫組42.37億元用於"},{"start":2337.063,"end":2364.082,"text":"調整急診交病房及護理相關支付標準三 食品安全管理一 本部秉持國家至上食安優先為前提始終以民眾健康為核心科學分析為基礎風險評估為依據作為決策之基本原則在確認食品安全無疑的前提下訂定安全且合理之管理措施以維護國家整體利益與國全民健康扶持二"},{"start":2364.682,"end":2393.115,"text":"我國順美世界貿易組織WTO之會員國在食品管理政策之訂定與執行一直遵循以科學實證與風險評論為基礎確保食物從產地到餐桌的每一環節皆符合規範並致以為民眾建構實在安心實在放心的環境本部曾答應各委員之指教及監督在此靜置謝神並請各位委員繼續予以支持以上報告謝謝"},{"start":2395.721,"end":2402.132,"text":"謝謝部長很精簡接下來請農業部也要報告5分鐘接下來請勞動部洪部長報告5分鐘"},{"start":2414.751,"end":2430.591,"text":"主席各位委員跟各位女士先生大家好感謝國委會邀請由本人向各位進行今天的專題報告敬請各位不吝指教本部一直以來都非常重視並致力於保障醫療院所勞工的勞動權益"},{"start":2432.133,"end":2451.711,"text":"那我們在不同的面向都採取相關的作為首先有關加強法令宣導的部分每年各縣市辦理勞動基準法令的研習會讓勞資雙方可以就近參加同時也透過官網、臉書等多人的方式進行宣導使勞工跟僱主都能夠了解法令的規定進而來落實"},{"start":2452.852,"end":2467.58,"text":"其次和衛福部合作訂定相關的行政指導提升醫院的法尊能力本部積極協助衛福部訂定醫院護理師以及住院醫師的排班相關執行範例促進醫院合法排班有效保障"},{"start":2469.054,"end":2483.409,"text":"醫務人員的權益另外本部修正違反勞動基準法裁處罰還共通性原則那增列醫學中心和區域醫院那有積欠加班費或超過法定加班時數上限輪班間隔時數不足例價"},{"start":2485.671,"end":2506.209,"text":"休息排班及加班費計算未依法等違反勞基法的情形時那最低罰還金額從新台幣2萬提高到5萬元那這些條文案涉及到維護勞工及身心健康和經濟生活希望雇主要依法來辦理另外本部每年都會規劃醫療院所勞動條件專案檢查並設有多元的申訴和"},{"start":2510.593,"end":2533.014,"text":"督責的機制喔那對於違法的醫療院所本部會喊請衛福部加強督導那更會將其列為重點檢查的對象並且本部與衛福部合作那該部護理職場正義通報平台有接獲之個案也都會請地方政府配合查查另外勞動部依據職業安全衛生法的規定要求僱主應付"},{"start":2533.394,"end":2560.385,"text":"不要讓勞工因輪班夜間工作長時間異常工作負荷而生病之預防義務為了確保勞工痊癒受損能夠及時獲得協助本部也設有1995專線勞工可以就近向所在地的勞政機關申訴主管機關也會立即派員查處本部也會透過法遵法制以及補助等多元的方式督促並協助醫療院所遵守法令最後"},{"start":2561.405,"end":2590.144,"text":"本部也協助僱主補食人才提供求財推介媒合的服務113年已經協助僱主僱用28位醫師6000多位的護理以及助產專業人員以及592位護理助理專業人員另外配合衛福部延攬外籍專業醫事人員以開放取得衛福部核發醫事職業證書的外籍醫師、中醫師、護理師等可受聘僱於醫事機構"},{"start":2591.325,"end":2591.346,"text":"好"},{"start":2592.328,"end":2620.925,"text":"截至今年5月底外国人从事医疗保健及社会工作服务业的有效聘雇许可已经达1287人次那接下来本部还是会持续跟卫福密切的合作来协助医院提升法军的能力有效改善医院工作环境和劳动条件增进工作稳定度促进和谐的劳资关系共同建立一个友善永续的医护劳动环境以上报告进行各位委员部令指教谢谢"},{"start":2623.797,"end":2627.266,"text":"好 謝謝洪部長那接下來我們請財政部謝次長"},{"start":2641.448,"end":2662.209,"text":"主席各位委員先進 大家好今天貴委員會邀請相關部會就今天的專題提出報告財政部僅就相關業務做檢要的報告進行指教有關我們財政部書面報告說明的美國對台灣加徵對等關稅的概況請委員參與我們的書面報告我就不在這邊"},{"start":2664.332,"end":2679.228,"text":"以下警告我们进口食品的通关流程及查验措施提出怎样的说明进口食品的边境查验措施是由海关查核10道货物与报单申报的货名"},{"start":2679.848,"end":2706.561,"text":"重量及生产国别等是否相符另由卫生福利部食品药物管理署也就是食药署负责食品卫生的安全查验也就是说进口食品除填具进口报单向海关办理报关之外也应该向食药署申请输入食品的一个卫生查验由食药署来确认卫生安全是否符合标准"},{"start":2707.461,"end":2731.516,"text":"海關依照食藥署的一個查驗和通知訊息我們才可以辦理放行的作業如果食藥署查驗不合格進口人就必須依照食藥署的通知辦理退運或銷毀海關於貨物放行後的一日期會將進口報單的資料傳送給食藥署供食藥署做境內查核的一個管理"},{"start":2732.543,"end":2758.464,"text":"我國輸入食品的衛生查驗標準及邊境查驗程序由食藥署訂定、修正及執行本部公務署與該署其實密切的分工也持續在分工合作這個合作關係也非常的良好我們會持續的共同執行食品進口食品的一個通關措施維護國人的食品安全健康"},{"start":2759.805,"end":2783.835,"text":"本部官署将持续协同食药署依法办理进口食品的通关业务并与美国合作确保供应链的安全及贸易便捷化深化台美经贸的互动同时密切注意美方最新的关税政策配合我们行政院台美经贸小组谈判的结果来办理后续相关事项以上报告敬请各位委员指教谢谢"},{"start":2785.316,"end":2786.079,"text":"謝謝 謝次長 那接下來我們請農業部 杜次長"},{"start":2800.277,"end":2806.887,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會先進 各位女士先生本人很榮幸代表農業部今天列席社環委員會就這個議題來做專題報告農業部負責的部分是在台美關稅對台灣食品安全影響的部分"},{"start":2815.62,"end":2839.518,"text":"那就三个面向来跟大家说明第一个是台美贸易关系那美国是我们重要的农业贸易的伙伴那去年113年台湾有22.3%的农产品是从美国进口的那进口值大概36.9亿美元台湾是美国的第八大海外市场那美国输台湾的主要产品是黄豆小麦玉米跟牛肉"},{"start":2840.239,"end":2865.875,"text":"在出口的部分美国是台湾第八大的农产品市场那消化美国的农产品价值大约8.9亿美元那这是所有出口的农产品中大概占17.6%那主要的品项就是花卉跟水产品那至于美国对整个关税对我国农产品的影响在一个基础值上来讲就是依照WTO来说美国的农产品的简单平均关税大概是5%"},{"start":2867.389,"end":2892.9,"text":"那台灣的農產品的簡單平均關稅是16.6%那美國採取這個對等關稅4月2號公布之後呢其中對我國輸往美國的重要的品項包括蝴蝶蘭、茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀、鱸魚等這個影響比較大那農業部這邊也採取了金融支持然後協助我們產業競爭力以及開拓多元市場這三個面向來協助產業因應"},{"start":2894.801,"end":2916.079,"text":"那第三點就台美關稅談判這當中對於台灣的食品安全的影響那我想大家也都知道涉及如果是食品衛生安全的進口農產品的邊境檢驗食品及食品原料的相關管理標示法令相關規範這是衛福部主管那進口的食品由衛福部食藥署"},{"start":2916.579,"end":2931.919,"text":"依照食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法在邊境執行查驗如果有檢驗不符合規定的情形則由衛生單位依據食安法來相關規定查處並依據國人對這個相關牛肉豬肉即可食部位"},{"start":2932.479,"end":2952.269,"text":"及包裝原料這邊進行做評估那對於飲食場所餐飲場所應標示原料的原產地標示也同樣由衛福部支援來主政以利消費者辨識及選購那本部的部分是就農業貿易談判裡面是有關於動植物防疫檢疫措施的技術問題那相關技術問題當然是要依照國際規範"},{"start":2955.01,"end":2981.89,"text":"並遵循WTO-SPS的協定架構在保護國人生命安全以及動植物健康透過適當的邊境管制防範外來的疫病及有害生物入侵並免對我國的農業生產環境以及產業經濟造成損害所以重上述三個面向本部將密切掌握相關對等關稅的最新發展並持續與我們的產業及相關部會保持聯繫"},{"start":2983.591,"end":3005.625,"text":"協助我們的產業發展 經濟各方面的因應協助我們產業在提升競爭力並開創多元市場維護我國農業經營者的權益並顧及食品安全 以上報告敬請不吝指教 謝謝好 謝謝杜市長那有關本市會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄團人公報"},{"start":3008.062,"end":3029.405,"text":"跟大家報告我們這次雲加蘭的颱風非常非常非常嚴重昨天我們有報告我們有台電的正值員工促電6000伏特的電促電現在裝ECMO我們總統也下去看了我們希望"},{"start":3030.906,"end":3050.31,"text":"這個是正職員工,他們的外包員工也很多我們希望勞動部要加強安全的問題,他們的權益、公使都要加強我昨天也跟西北醫院院長聯絡兩次,昨天應該有跟他聯絡"},{"start":3054.171,"end":3065.822,"text":"希望他變了,情況不好,我們大家幫他禱告祈福那我們現在開始巡檔,做以下宣告本委員會委員8分鐘,列席4分鐘"},{"start":3068.628,"end":3085.338,"text":"10點半截止歡迎登記有書面執行請於上會前提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘 沿著上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止收費 收案那現在請登記第一號的陳昭之委員詢問謝謝主席 麻煩邱部長邱部長請"},{"start":3098.361,"end":3113.746,"text":"今天有幾個議題跟您討論但是我還是要先跟您談討就是老師拿分數當武器逼迫學生交出血液這件事情那因為訊息一直進來昨天我看到有一位受害者學生姓簡他出來說他忍耐了四年"},{"start":3114.566,"end":3116.828,"text":"那跟同一篇報導說 視障政見行為已經進行了7年所以我認為是這個 學校在包庇教育部在裝睡那衛福部讓你選一個 是裝聾還是裝傻你選一下這麼久了"},{"start":3133.988,"end":3135.91,"text":"這不只是倫理問題耶它涉及醫療法這個涉及醫療法還有這個不只倫理問題嘛醫療法跟這個人體研究法嘛"},{"start":3145.366,"end":3150.629,"text":"是我們是法的主管機關然後這個部分從研究的一個督導考核以及調查其實是世衛主管機關但是有涉及醫療法部林市長他又對接受媒體採訪說他有說就是監察院在調查那教育部等等也是在跟學校在調查然後等這個之後"},{"start":3169.421,"end":3174.209,"text":"衛福部再來做一次處理但是教育部已經完成了他有行政處罰都已經裁定了我就不再多談那請問衛福部現在要處理了嗎"},{"start":3180.959,"end":3197.952,"text":"是的我想教育部以及像地檢署也就自我調查所以這個部分我們可以期盼能夠調查得更清楚那衛福部現在要做什麼我們還是要堅持學生的人權以及學生的受教權的傷害絕對不能受到傷害所以如果以這樣的事件來講我們當然整體都要來檢討整個機制是不是能夠更加的落實所以我們第一個我們會把"},{"start":3209.141,"end":3217.17,"text":"針對受害的學生我們昨天也開過相關的會議怎麼樣來保護他的身心健康你要積極在做這件事很多學生喔 太多年 七年喔對 我意思就是說先最急的是趕快照顧這些受害的家屬以及他們的受教權還有他們的家庭因為這樣的衝擊"},{"start":3228.223,"end":3230.064,"text":"然後我們會去跟相關的機關來檢討整個是不是能夠在連結方面更加的落實因為那個市長在這裡但是那個16號之後這個醫師是副市長劉副市長他在回答受訪者而講他當時認為研究中的抽血不是醫療行為也不是醫療輔助行為"},{"start":3247.774,"end":3260.262,"text":"但是因為他有提到說因為有關受試者的保護他覺得執行這個還是要醫護人員或學校的醫護人員或是醫檢室來執行部長我想問你同意嗎研究中的抽血不是醫療行為或不是醫療輔助行為您同意這個說法嗎"},{"start":3261.702,"end":3268.887,"text":"我想我們一切都要按照醫師法規你同不同意這個說法他說出來了副司長說出來了所以我就從國衛院喔他有關這個倫理委員會的審查紀錄中找到了一個我隨機去找了一個需要抽血的試驗那國衛院的這個倫理委員會有講到說抽血就是屬於醫療行為醫療輔助行為必須由具有執照的醫護人員來執行而且需要在醫療場所那即便是研究案也不例外所以我想請問部長是醫事師副司長的說法錯了"},{"start":3292.042,"end":3303.168,"text":"還是國務院說法有誤呢?我想在醫療醫療法這個部分當然是很清楚他抽選是不是醫療行為或醫療輔助行為?因為這個部分不是在醫療機構的執行所以我們要了解一下醫療行為還是醫療輔助行為?他說都不是"},{"start":3313.234,"end":3332.591,"text":"我覺得這件事情要拆開兩個層面來講因為今天是研究案裡面他我覺得從頭到尾這件事情最大的問題會在IRB到底通過了什麼這個學校到底那個執行的PA到底做了什麼這問題的癥結在這邊這是第一件事第二件事情我們家副市長講的是最好的照顧費是什麼"},{"start":3335.213,"end":3358.352,"text":"就是臭血啦我覺得這兩塊是不一樣的最好的照顧在procure裡面最好是醫事人員的這件事情可是研究案裡面在這個案子我們所以才會覺得剛剛委員垂詢說很像這邊我們衛福部要做什麼其實是每一個事業目的主管機關到底在他們所委託的兩位都是醫師啦"},{"start":3359.373,"end":3376.603,"text":"因為這個抽血有一點雖然說不是傷害但是這個侵入性的一個做法所以我希望衛婦是不是以後對於相關的這個研究案要設有這個查核跟檢舉機制可以嗎這我們會督導各個事業目的主管機關去做把那個標準拉一致"},{"start":3376.903,"end":3399.609,"text":"因為現在審查出去的東西每一個事業目的主管機關都有委託審查會價值還嚴重好好就是說你們再請你們繼續就是要有一些監察跟後來的集合制度好好謝謝部長那個衛福部推動三班護病比啦我知道你最怕這幾位啦六月底他首度撥付了獎勵金你知道他總共撥付了多少錢嗎到現在是5.96億"},{"start":3403.151,"end":3409.057,"text":"那既然發了獎勵金,表示有改善喔?是不是?部長這樣有改善嗎?你錢都搬下去了,有沒有改善?我們這個三半富用筆的獎勵金發下去以後,也要求他要按照KPI來做,只能用在護理醫生的狀況"},{"start":3420.247,"end":3442.905,"text":"我這幾天上網去查 結果發現不管是健保署的網站或是照護師的網站上都查不到今年上半年的三班負病比資料欸現在都七月十七了欸那為什麼資料還沒有上線呢你是怕規避監督嗎 沒有資料欸沒有 我們廠長在這邊也跟大家報告過我們整個醫學中心已經到達三班負病比合乎的已經六成了"},{"start":3443.365,"end":3446.308,"text":"就是上網 你上網沒有資料以前有 現在斷掉了市長報告一下我們目前的資料是由醫院做填的我知道醫院 但是你要催促"},{"start":3459.343,"end":3469.69,"text":"現在目前健保署的BPM是公告到12月沒有錯啦但是一到這個已經半年啦你沒有資料就是沒有資料沒有資料就是沒有資料請立刻我們會針對這件事啦好謝謝那部長您本身是資歷豐厚的這個醫師啦我想請問部長如果現在要你去值班OK嗎"},{"start":3483.28,"end":3487.868,"text":"你OK嗎只要人民健康需要我上山下海都可以你可以值班喔那我請問昭緯昭緯您現在可以去值班嗎值夜班嗎昭緯可能常常在值班"},{"start":3494.07,"end":3514.906,"text":"還是有所低限不過體力是有差但是你看這張圖因為明年8月要進來兒科這個是2月26日的報導對外招聘幾乎乏人問津某些中南部的醫學中心55到60歲的主治醫師甚至必須在醫院睡覺值班就很類似能力當然不是做醫師但是他的行為必須像住院醫師一樣的來處理"},{"start":3518.353,"end":3534.717,"text":"那現在就很多組織醫師可能去招不到人嘛斷崖嘛就是說整個這個是人力斷崖那很多組織醫師去開業或是說明天醫師覺得說少子化他覺得未來就是夕陽工業他就沒有投入這個領域嘛那健保我知道之前健保署也會編列預算想要調高這個極重難科別的支付"},{"start":3538.038,"end":3553.225,"text":"那144也有在監測這個專科醫師的人數那我可不可以請報告一下就是健保署這邊我想知道這個策略有沒有成功呢你調高致富標準有沒有增加那144的監測指標是什麼有沒有如所欲起"},{"start":3554.065,"end":3572.917,"text":"我先跟委員做報告再請兩位市長跟市長報告一下第一個就是說我們重建保署當然加成他的給付不管是在兒科的診察會譬如說我們加成3%那先增加一個他給醫院有一定的力量嘛量能嘛那在醫事事方面也用兒童的一個照顧的一個計畫"},{"start":3573.817,"end":3589.771,"text":"你預期什麼時候會看到效果其實讓這樣的我們會看到其實很多醫院都針對集中男人症真的有加薪那自己加薪以後是不是外界的環境這個牽涉到比較複雜我們當然有在督導因為沒有兒科醫師就不得了了對當然我們今年的領證人數還到達123人是每年的容額是300人"},{"start":3596.257,"end":3597.939,"text":"現在是開業的比較多 留在醫院的比較少"},{"start":3621.38,"end":3625.422,"text":"所以我們現在努力的目標是如何讓兒科醫師留在醫院請你繼續往這個方向去走好嗎那部長我還在請教你醫師加班費一加班降低所得稅這很多人期待但是他們覺得有可能是因為看得到吃不到為什麼呢因為醫師大家都認為他是責任制所以對加班的這個定義是模糊的"},{"start":3640.851,"end":3644.153,"text":"那譬如外科醫師手術隨時後他去寫報告那算不算在工作通訊哪裡這麼發達那醫師在回覆這個護理站的訊息或家屬訊息算不算PGY算不算等等等等財政部今天是來謝次長我有看到這個您一邊上來我一邊談我有看到"},{"start":3658.964,"end":3684.899,"text":"複稅署在新聞上回應說相關法規需要由主管機關法定就是說法定來訂定延長工作時間及規定的標準也要為服務用函式的方式去通案處理或是憲保署要修法在全民健保法醫療服務機構及管理特別管理辦法才能夠進行跨部會的討論啦我有希望這個財政部是不是可以更積極努力嘛就是兩個跨部門來處理是不是盡可能如果你們要做這件事盡可能讓明年報稅的時候這個時間讓醫師就可以去試用嘛"},{"start":3688.642,"end":3703.423,"text":"為了留住醫院的人力 真的我覺得這個是需要來努力來做這是你們提出來的方法 試試看嘛那另外就是說比較困難科別譬如說你們可以借清楚比如小兒科 剛剛我提到小兒科可不可以適度的拉高那個上限就是這個免稅 加班免稅的上限我們都可以來研議"},{"start":3705.585,"end":3713.687,"text":"好 謝謝啦您還沒有站起來我只好先離開了因為今天有安安演習謝謝主席 謝謝兩位所長一直跟我們在演繹這個等一下我會接著問謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 組長接著我們請陳清威委員質詢謝謝主席 謝謝官員也請邱部長 謝謝"},{"start":3736.041,"end":3754.122,"text":"委員長部長早部長這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象連續14天配合抽血有時候一天抽三次從早上起床一直抽到晚上"},{"start":3755.043,"end":3780.358,"text":"那這邊呢昨天我也感到非常的不解因為林靜怡次長她評論說她對於這件事件是很震驚啊她非常想知道說這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了是學校在處理血液檢體嗎或者是和醫療相關的機構做合作部長你是不是也一樣覺得對這件事很不解那我想知道衛福部過了這麼久有哪一些新的資訊呢"},{"start":3782.482,"end":3808.058,"text":"好,謝謝委員的垂行我們聽到這樣的一個訊息的確非常難過說實在也很生氣因為學生的授教權、學生的人權的維護是完全沒有模糊的空間所以我們非常願意來協助這個職業主管機關你一定去了解,現在地檢署也去做司法調查整個了解以後該究責的我們要原辦"},{"start":3808.758,"end":3827.613,"text":"那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎"},{"start":3829.694,"end":3845.74,"text":"從前像我們的居家醫療其實有有這樣子的一個但是是不是醫事人員執行所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到了IRB到底通過什麼然後這個這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的這個計畫來執行因為這裡面的問題到底"},{"start":3849.321,"end":3865.862,"text":"我覺得在以溫府部的立場我們是人體人體研究法主管機關我們是希望要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法尊來做處理如果他對法尊不清楚的時候我們其實是做協同所以才會是在這個事件裡面"},{"start":3866.903,"end":3892.283,"text":"整個教育部的IRB的訪查的這個機制到底有沒有什麼問題這是我們關注的第二件事情是IRB裡面特別是台師大的這個IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼然後目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講所以這個地方我們其實會再跟教育部做合作把它做理解因為這個制度的檢討才能夠預防再發我真的是問一個很單純的問題第一"},{"start":3897.026,"end":3922.292,"text":"抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行就這麼簡單 部長部長你回答一下原則上醫法令是應該要這樣對阿 依照醫療法就是應該要醫事人員執行嘛所以你可以介入阿 你是可以介入的阿我給你看這個就是學生 我給你看我們要瞭解他整個過程嘛如果的確有發生這種事情當然我們就要究責"},{"start":3923.052,"end":3947.449,"text":"好我先給你看這個是學校內部這個霸凌的調查報告他講說他給誰抽血沒有醫護執照技術不好再換成誰抽血還有一些學生他是直接把他整個被抽血的過程都錄影下來放到Threads還有把他自己拿著他的血去做離心也放到Threads他把這些事都公開因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了他不再那麼害怕了他願意站出來了"},{"start":3951.592,"end":3966.117,"text":"這個你就可以介入啊 如果我是部長我直接去找這些學生問說誰幫你抽過血你們醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上欸你不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎"},{"start":3967.663,"end":3985.168,"text":"你還需要等教育部的調查報告教育部告訴你誰幫誰抽過血然後你再來跟你比對你需要這樣子嗎你衛福部跟教育部一樣大一樣大你本來就可以主動介入調查不是嗎違反醫事法醫療法是你們執行的業務耶對嗎"},{"start":3990.927,"end":4002.152,"text":"如果以人體研究法來講,當然世衛主管機關要去做,他的權責是監督、調查還有處罰,還有去懲處但是違反醫療法,違反醫事法令當然我們一定會趕快去了解"},{"start":4009.975,"end":4023.599,"text":"如果真的有違反醫療相關的法案,我們是整個究責啦,因為這個有時候跟,你也知道嘛,跟老師有跟PI有關係嘛,對不對但是很單純的他被誰抽血這個人是不是醫師人員,對你來說應該很簡單整個系統來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來"},{"start":4033.082,"end":4061.675,"text":"因為這個的確我們要確定他抽血的每一個去抽血這個動作的人是誰我們去調查清楚才有辦法去做然後他的原因整個他的來友是怎麼樣整個了解以後我們要知道他的輕重才能夠給予最適當的懲處我們現在已經跟教育部合作一起來努力你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎"},{"start":4062.759,"end":4086.579,"text":"還沒我們先尊重世界主管機關他們交易部還在調查所以你在等他們給你名單意思是這樣子我們有含請交易部就是針對我們以涉及可能涉及人體研究法裡面哪幾條的問題我們有含請他們也能夠去調查部長我給你一個建議其實你就是醫療法的主管機關你也可以禁訴執法啦就看你要不要做而已"},{"start":4087.399,"end":4094.59,"text":"我還是這樣子介意你啦你其實很快找到這些人問到誰幫他們抽血你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了"},{"start":4096.434,"end":4118.579,"text":"我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神第一個究責PI第二件事情受試者保護所以在受試者保護的情況下面的時候怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害這件事情所以我們在這個地方我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質第一個校園八零案疑似"},{"start":4119.099,"end":4144.205,"text":"第二件事情我們的人體研究法的違法的部分要就責PI我覺得這是這這件事情應該要去處理的至於其他的細節的部分的話同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是這一個教育部這邊的協同的子計畫這個部分這個是我們可以目前馬上做的我對你們很有信心我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護"},{"start":4145.185,"end":4164.896,"text":"但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法違規的這些糾察好嗎好再來部長這是很多醫師關心的也是許多基層診所現在給我一些他們的報表去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議這個主決議你是說6月30號以前你要達成健保點值0.95"},{"start":4166.417,"end":4182.768,"text":"像前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動您接受記者訪問你說非常的有信心那最近這些基層的醫療告訴我說去年第四季他們的點值大概是0.8然後你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9是不是有這件事可不可以給我們一個時間"},{"start":4184.669,"end":4205.024,"text":"這個補兌已經在進行這個禮拜開始在撥款這個禮拜在撥款那今年第一季他們是有到0.9那第二季也就是您曾經給予的承諾6月30號以前可不可以到0.95這件事情您認為做得到還是會跳票"},{"start":4205.424,"end":4219.977,"text":"跟委員報告一下第一劑,因為第二劑還沒有出來第一劑我們的所有的不管是醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門六個區全部都在0.95以上,只有台北區是0.94"},{"start":4226.023,"end":4234.191,"text":"我這個表上面你在講第二劑還是第一劑整個西醫基層是0.946醫院是0.95會要0.9所以這兩個平均起來在第一劑西醫我們在講中醫跟亞醫就已經到達0.95了那第二劑應該是差不多這樣的水準"},{"start":4244.861,"end":4272.103,"text":"第二季你現在應該有數據了吧還沒出來我們在這邊是幫他們說說話因為第二季你才開始個別總額的這些限制所以我們希望你不是只透過不管是這個核酸或者是斷頭或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例請問如果你有實際上"},{"start":4273.544,"end":4279.03,"text":"有這些配置的話你會不會把它拿來補健保點子你要怎麼做你的安排"},{"start":4280.191,"end":4306.563,"text":"據瞭解所有的一個黨團提出來都很關心到我們醫藥的韌性醫藥的韌性所以這個部分的確是應該是我們面對國際間的一個挑戰裡面的確應該是先補醫藥的韌性那當然因為我們現在的在今年的四月行政會也通過了就是只要補的在安全準備基金只要是補進來的都可以再用在我們政府覺得需要所以將來"},{"start":4307.924,"end":4331.638,"text":"如果真的是點子到達不夠的時候當然是可以補啊這個已經明文已經規定了但是我們現在點子跟委員報告一下其實我現在到在議界去看真的大家都覺得相當的欣慰啦已經到達跟以前差很多啦但因為關稅即將來臨嘛我們也擔心原物料會變貴還有川普給予一個這個什麼最惠國要價的政策主席我時間到了"},{"start":4337.562,"end":4338.362,"text":"好部長問你最後一個問題"},{"start":4363.919,"end":4380.985,"text":"醫界對於這兩個附帶決議都表示高度的重視那我們想問你會不會因為執政黨委員都投反對所以即使通過了約束了衛福部必須要做這兩個附帶決議但是你會影響到你執行的這個成果我想我們衛福部是一個國家的部門政府部門我們所有的政府部門就要創造人民"},{"start":4391.857,"end":4409.829,"text":"福國利民的一個各種措施嘛所以只要對政府的部門是很負責任的不是短暫的是長期的一個一個能夠穩定的在各方面的保護國家的安全我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容啦你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件嗎你剛剛說福國利民"},{"start":4415.674,"end":4436.163,"text":"第一個就是說當然以單單某一個方面來講當然我們如果有某一個方面某一項目他對那一個部分的政策當然會有幫助但是是不是會影響到其他的一個國家的整體的發展這個也是政府部門必須要無私的"},{"start":4437.043,"end":4460.171,"text":"來考慮到以國家整體的發展來處理所以我們非常謹慎的來遵照我們所以你的意思是說你還在評估你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議我們一切都會依法辦理啊我們會依法辦理謝謝主席 阿姨你等一下再問好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長附帶決議是我提的好 謝謝抱歉啦 今天是控制時間"},{"start":4465.731,"end":4467.613,"text":"來 繼續我們請王玉琳質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請邱部長"},{"start":4483.516,"end":4508.337,"text":"委員好部長好 台師大這一個女卒她們這些學生被違法抽血的這件事情如果我們從這個人體研究法裡面我們攤開第二條來看它開宗明義你這個人體研究要尊重研究對象的自主權而且對研究對象侵害要最小"},{"start":4509.258,"end":4536.716,"text":"要保障研究對象的權益在這個事件當中到目前為止我們看到的校方完全違反這個學生自主的意願強迫去抽血而且現在所揭露的如果是連續14天每天抽血高達三次這個是對他的侵害最小嗎一般人都難以想像啊你每天要被抽血連續14天有這樣子喔"},{"start":4539.478,"end":4563.363,"text":"我不知道這一個研究計畫當時是怎麼通過倫理審查委員會的怎麼通過的因為如果他當時有載明這樣的一個情況我光看到這一點就不合理啊你今天只是為了研究而研究完全去忽略掉一個研究對象他該有的基本權益有什麼樣的研究會連續14天去抽學生的血"},{"start":4564.663,"end":4583.73,"text":"過去你們有看過這樣的相關的研究嗎密度這麼高我覺得這件事情非常的離譜耶那另外離譜的是他去年其實就有學生反應了我要問的是那衛福部你們是這部法的主管機關喔你們什麼時候才知道這件事"},{"start":4584.505,"end":4608.957,"text":"去年時候學生揭露的時候有通報到你們這邊來嗎我先跟委員報告一下謝謝委員關心這件事情我們感同身受跟委員一樣那但是我們一切都是按照依法來辦理其實人體研究法的確主管機關是衛生福利部但是人體研究這個研究的監督查核管理處分及研究對象權益的保障是教育部我知道這個事件是教育部"},{"start":4612.179,"end":4637.577,"text":"所以我們當然是尊重教育部的調查跟處理嘛那我們當然以法的畫面我們只是說怎麼樣去把它落實這個法我知道但是部長我要告訴你一件事情就是說原來的法是這樣子並沒有錯以這個事件真正要負責的目的世界主管機關是教育部教育部沒有負擔起督導查核的這樣的一個任務"},{"start":4639.278,"end":4656.485,"text":"那這個會不會有所謂的官官相互的問題他們通通都是教育系統又是台師大提出來的研究所以對他呢就輕輕放下那這個事件已經暴露出來如果未來我們的這個法的本身都是交由目的事業主管機關管轄"},{"start":4657.625,"end":4674.162,"text":"但是呢他的倫理審查委員會看起來又沒有積極的發揮這個監督審查的功能那怎麼辦這是漏洞啊我要求你們根據這次的事件要去看到這樣的現象就是都是來自同一個體系的官官相互是免不了的"},{"start":4674.902,"end":4694.847,"text":"這個就是我現在看到的情況我希望你們好好去調查清楚包括這個倫理審查委員會是不是失功能找了哪一些的對象這個委員會有沒有夠公平公正專業如果有的話應該第一時間這樣一個計畫根本連通過都不應該通過我自己的看法是這樣好不好"},{"start":4695.787,"end":4723.197,"text":"因為今天時間有限 還有很多議題要問接下來就是民眾最關心的食安的問題這件事情必須 衛福部跟大家做說明今天農業部也來 可能一併要跟國人表示清楚因為現在傳言滿天飛我第一個要問的是現在美方有沒有要求我們取消美牛美豬的產品的標示 有或沒有你們接到訊息"},{"start":4724.045,"end":4746.738,"text":"我想台美的談判這個部分是還在談判中所以我想這個是還沒有結論的時候我想就未來我由行政院這邊來所以你們都被下了風口我們衛福部當然就是要堅持以食安照顧人民所以衛福部的立場不會取消產地標示"},{"start":4747.765,"end":4774.441,"text":"是或不是我們一切都是會按照那個現行的法令食安法22條是要標的喔其實我們是一個身為一個WTO的一個國家我們當然是要國際的標準部長你回答我直接的問題我今天時間很有限我們科學分析跟國際的一個規範我這三題你就回答是或不是有或沒有就好不要再說明了有沒有要取消產地標示有或沒有就好"},{"start":4775.146,"end":4792.816,"text":"謝謝委員因為國際的慣例底下我們在面對談判的過程我們都知道很多國家的你不要再講這些我的時間很有限有或沒有不敢回答第二個要不要放行美牛的絞肉跟內臟這個是食安法第15條裡面的規定有沒有"},{"start":4793.576,"end":4814.825,"text":"我想針對所有的內容在他們其實之前叫做National Trade Evaluation NTE裡面其實都有以前多的議題美國其實是很關心的那有沒有要放行嗎我問你有沒有要放行很關心的議題當中呢其實大家都會進一步去思考如何去去因應這樣所以已經鬆口了就是有可能要放行"},{"start":4815.325,"end":4835.538,"text":"我想這個議題其實因為牽涉到在談判的確在食藥署已經觸及了三級的機關的江署長其實安心署長對這部分有點困難針對這個重要的議題整體的國家的談判我們是配合所以你是配合如果是經貿談判小組說放行你們就照辦就對了"},{"start":4836.559,"end":4840.684,"text":"我想整個食品安全我們是以我已經知道你的答案了只要上面談判上面說放行你們就照辦第三個來季的容許值現在0.04是不是要放寬到0.09"},{"start":4851.551,"end":4874.503,"text":"這個部分我們在食安優先的前提之下要達到食安優先其實在風險評估的前提這個有沒有放經貿談判小組曾立軍副院長說放你們就放我們一定是在食品安全的科學分析風險評估的架構之下那我知道了你們這三項都有可能要開放都已經觸及了只是你們現在沒有辦法回答"},{"start":4876.664,"end":4902.144,"text":"接下來我要問勞動部一樣是關稅的議題我們看到衛福部在這個食安把關上面在關稅上面通通都是要聽行政院的指示邱部長你可以請回我接下來我要問的是洪部長一樣是關稅議題我直接問你這一波的關稅預計會衝擊國內多少的勞工行政院是說12.5萬地方政府估起來是50萬"},{"start":4903.444,"end":4928.402,"text":"到底會衝擊多少我想現在關稅談判的結果還沒有出來這當然都會有不確定的地方就是關稅出口稅率的數字還沒有最後談判的結果出來這個我想這個相關的預估都是非常參考性的而已因為不同的數字當然就會不同受影響的程度所以那個Range行政也估了一個12.5萬不是"},{"start":4931.603,"end":4940.455,"text":"這個談判的數字沒出來簽我就不講這個數字今天還有一個更重大的公安的問題我要問你這個台積電的外包的職災"},{"start":4942.293,"end":4964.845,"text":"事實上這個昨天剛發生這一個也是一個很重大的就是他的這個冰水管就是墜落現在這一位員工受傷工人受傷還在搶救當中那但是呢我們發現是不是在去年台積電在南科同樣有一個類似的"},{"start":4967.484,"end":4983.289,"text":"這個需要你們證實就是在南科18A廠有一個外包的僱員遭到905公斤一樣是冰水管重壓身亡有沒有這件事情我們可能要去了解一下"},{"start":4983.717,"end":5010.118,"text":"你們作為主管機關都還不知道這麼重大的質問沒有通報我以為你問的內容是非常非常細的所以我們可能要去了解一下你們都沒有獲得任何的通報嗎我今天要提醒的勞動部就是說如果是同一件的話這個2024年已經有一件現在是在台南那現在又在嘉義又同樣的類型都是冰水管這樣的一個施工出現問題然後重壓導致員工身亡"},{"start":5013.3,"end":5026.097,"text":"你們照照來講 針對這樣子同一個類型的案件勞動部應該有責任 這個涉及到這個職安的問題同一個類型 那應該就要提出警告或者是提醒大家怎麼樣去訪犯"},{"start":5027.046,"end":5050.534,"text":"我分兩個部分第一部分是我們這兩天我們回去把到底有沒有這樣子的事件就是是否這樣子的敘事是否屬實我們會把它弄清楚那弄清楚以後來跟委員辦公室來做報告這是第一點那第二個是說如果真的有屬實的話我想該依法那要來做什麼樣處理的可能不是只是規勸該依法怎麼做處理的我們就必須依法來去落實來處理就是這樣"},{"start":5052.034,"end":5068.025,"text":"你們作為這個勞動主管機關就是這麼重大的職災不應該是你們不知道你們應該第一時間都應該要通報應該是要知道的所以這個是看到新聞上面是這樣子講的就是說當事人他們還有去陳情"},{"start":5069.686,"end":5097.493,"text":"就是有這樣的一則興亡這個是我們看到的然後我們連到最新的昨天又一樣是冰水管所以我要你們好好去了解的是像這一類的半導體他們需要的這一些大型的重物的這個設施設備它在移動跟搬動的過程當中它會造成工人這個職災就是蠻嚴重的那這一類型你們就有責任要去分析原因然後善盡提醒而且要去督導"},{"start":5098.133,"end":5117.417,"text":"跟恩文說明其實過去以台積電它其實在公安相關的記錄是算是蠻不錯的就是因為它這是一個很旗艦性的企業那當然最近發生這些事件我想我們也願意跟廠商來做更多的討論跟協助然後導致有這樣的一個情況我們願意來協助因為確實過去以台積電的這個它的工程的規模"},{"start":5125.498,"end":5149.888,"text":"它其實是相當表現相對是比較好的那但是這幾件事情大家也覺得遺憾所以我們願意來給跟台積電來做討論哪些部分需要我們再多做協助那我們也希望這個模範生未來可以持續成為大家的模範因為我覺得這企業的領頭羊這很重要好 我要求你們要去查清楚重點是未來的防範不應該讓這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生好不好 謝謝"},{"start":5152.311,"end":5168.378,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝部長下一位我們請蘇清泉召委謝謝主席我請勞動部部長請部長 財政部次長農業部次長 兩位次長來 第一張"},{"start":5184.963,"end":5191.914,"text":"部長 這個問題我上個禮拜醫院協會 區醫院協會都一直來反映"},{"start":5193.055,"end":5216.181,"text":"那你們開會就這樣倉促的決定說醫協中心跟區議院要比照上市公司來管理只要違反勞基法就要加重處罰這個反彈非常大那我有找師長來做協調但是反正有1000個理由說一點被實施8月1號"},{"start":5217.557,"end":5230.503,"text":"那這個是非常嚴重,我是覺得,我常常跟你電話聽說你是在中邪,你是怕今天事情不夠煩,不夠派出力,要跟火上加油,那你的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":5232.102,"end":5247.835,"text":"跟所有人說明喔其實我想老戶在這一次這個這個處罰罰還的採處罰還的公共性原則的調整上面其實我們並沒有增加對醫院更多的管制性的要求其實只是針對"},{"start":5250.517,"end":5274.513,"text":"這個財儲他的下限從原本是兩萬元到一百萬現在改成是五萬到一百萬其實我們上限也並沒有動薪資的部分我想是沒問題就是兩萬到 風時的問題對那我現在現在我的意思是說我們其實只是從兩萬提高到五萬這花款是吧對我們只把這個花款從兩萬提高到五萬到一百五十萬啊沒有沒有我們上限還是一百啊"},{"start":5275.974,"end":5304.567,"text":"上限還是一百萬上限是一百萬只是下限的部分從兩萬拉到五萬那這個我要強調的是我們並沒有提出更多的管制性的要求只要醫院能夠遵守法規把法規做好這個調整其實對醫院來說並沒有影響啊我跟部長講這個勞基華是霸王條款霸王不是你做保健的比霸王一向就是醫療院所碰到這個大家都坐在等"},{"start":5305.755,"end":5317.905,"text":"公家醫院也有約聘人員他也是壓力都很大那我跟你剛剛陳昭志委員一個好幾個委員在講台灣有韌性台灣能夠發展台灣可以這樣現在不錯齁那是台灣24小時在碰"},{"start":5321.829,"end":5337.618,"text":"所以晶片業者 他們三班坐 另外一班叫做On call所以是四班人兩輪 那就是付出很高的代價那些人都是在賣肝啦 賣命啦那他的酬勞250年薪 300年薪 500年薪 應該的那醫療人員 剛剛陳昭書人講的值班 熬夜 現在我去某一個醫學中心的急診室"},{"start":5350.987,"end":5359.351,"text":"我去看他結果小兒科的急診你知道看病的那個兒科醫師是幾歲嗎57歲他看著我就站到後腳"},{"start":5363.829,"end":5391.409,"text":"我做到副教授還要看急診還要加上媒體加上媒體是練不了的因為孩子大家都很緊張所以我要跟你報告現在醫院是全部人都納入勞基法包括住院醫師也納入勞基法住院醫師值班都有限制工時也限制反而是保護呢現在醫院的主力是主治醫師在值班看你有要求嗎"},{"start":5393.663,"end":5395.624,"text":"富山哥平均要60塊啦麻醉哥 我說現在開桌一開超過八點鐘 十點鐘 要很多啦那都麻醉哥 都醫生 外國醫生大家在那邊 拚拚了"},{"start":5408.928,"end":5423.61,"text":"對這是很嚴肅的問題那個跟文說明我們其實正是要來保護醫療人員跟醫護人員的勞動權益我們就是因為重視他們的勞動權益也是因為有很多的醫護人員來跟我們反映"},{"start":5424.471,"end":5452.07,"text":"其實醫院如果違法其實有幾個相關的法規違反的話其實常常只是被罰兩萬元這個違法的成本真的太低了其實這正是很多的醫護人員來跟勞動部反映認為這個財儲過去的財儲不符合比例原則所以我們很怕現在醫學中心跟區醫院因為很多區醫院都是在在各個縣市的偏遠地區尤其區醫院都是"},{"start":5453.49,"end":5475.801,"text":"石中良說燈塔醫院,我看是碼頭醫院或是標桿醫院都沒關係反正那些都很重要那些都是現在主治醫師級在撐那個醫院學院李輝鵬他的兒子好像神經外科他兒子半夜要去開刀把小孩子丟給他他阿公在過分主治醫師其實現在是適用腦肌法的84條之一"},{"start":5477.595,"end":5493.229,"text":"主治醫師現在 住院醫師住院醫師那是沒有問題 主治醫師沒有公實規範對不起 主治醫師沒有公實規範我告訴你 過去了 因為說去買的走走要用檢紀 想要檢紀都要去買所以如果用檢紀 昨天沒人要開桌沒人要拒收 有人求像日本這樣一個產婦 要去洗衣服 救護車"},{"start":5503.738,"end":5529.7,"text":"請問施加醫院沒有一間要收台灣如果變成這樣那一頓就停產這個跟委員說明我們其實正是很關注醫護人員的勞動的權益所以我們其實才做這個方面的調整那我們也覺得我們也看到現在醫護人員這個人才流財相關的困境所以我們也才覺得更需要院方把"},{"start":5530.18,"end":5547.051,"text":"法尊給做好,這才有助於流程我們在熬夜,我們在值班,我們在亂24小時熬夜是很累的耶六頭目,六的時候我就在錄影,博電也在錄影皮膚會老化,免疫力會下降,那是怕白的"},{"start":5548.012,"end":5559.698,"text":"不然我就繼續動下去你信我們婦理人員如果是大一班常常上那連月經週期都會亂欸要很緊張但是啦這台灣的妹妹是在這,台灣的韌性在這所以你這個案要實施來我們財政部處長我問你喔川普說加班費、值班費都免稅"},{"start":5574.551,"end":5583.958,"text":"我覺得他講得很好啊 雖然川普常常亂講話 但是他講這個非常好因為那都是在賣命 整個美國要進步也是這樣這的人為了台灣 不關是服務業 不關是醫療我們公家醫院的醫師 我們社團法人 財團法人的醫師都是這樣在碰這的人"},{"start":5598.814,"end":5600.077,"text":"極重震懶的主治醫師他這樣賣命拿個值班費現在都要繳稅而且稅都很重"},{"start":5607.864,"end":5633.41,"text":"我們現在始終處長跟部長在推說這些家職班會不管公家醫院 不管私人醫院 不管財長法醫院都可以給免稅 美國就這樣幹啊我們能不能這樣幹不然的話 組織醫師 重症醫師全部跑光了都招來經受 因為經受可以執行業務所得嘛所以你這個事情非常嚴重 要修法 我跟"},{"start":5634.411,"end":5644.386,"text":"財政委員會的人說要修法 給他免稅額啦什麼特別扣除 但是那都不太可行就是把夾環會 值班會直接認定你有這個Data嗎"},{"start":5646.455,"end":5662.94,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實我們也了解我們中央健保署其實有在檢討這部分那其實我們財政部非常的積極已經有函詢衛福部在釐清這個延長工作時間的加班時數跟他的支付標準的問題那這個部分我們會持續的來跟衛福部來演繹"},{"start":5664.952,"end":5693.687,"text":"你把他每個月的那個所得等下除以他的工時然後算出來每個小時那他如果超時的或者是時間外的就讓他免稅能夠報出來 這樣可行這個沒有多少錢嘛不然的話留不住人喔 我跟你講我覺得建議蠻好的這個部分我們來看看我們財政中心可不可以跑一下但是那個工作時數可能醫院才會有所以這個部分我們會持續的來跟衛福部"},{"start":5694.167,"end":5722.638,"text":"你要積極來做 不然的話就很嚴重 被勞動部再K下去的話我告訴你 兩頭空連陳先生都不想值班了還是有受那個勞基法的一個加班時數規定的一個限制啦所以 對你們是用醫師法所以我們會持續的來跟衛福部那持續跟我們的醫療院所這邊衛福部看看他們有沒有這個我們的一些醫師的一個加班時數的規定"},{"start":5724.44,"end":5743.12,"text":"我希望會務部還有那個時事署長跟家政部要不要積極啦這個公家醫院的意思也是一樣那你如果沒有的話這個社團法院醫院、私人醫院把這個拉高把這個有加值班費免稅我要跟公家賠償一點點賺賠償一點點"},{"start":5746.465,"end":5757.75,"text":"那是很嚴重的問題你現在值班的人都五六十歲六十幾歲值班耶我們屏東有婦產科醫師八十五歲還在控完價還在值班耶一個八十五歲一個六十五歲請問是委員其實我們都去過那大家救人耶所以這個你們財政部不要說到財政部說到負稅層大家都抬高抬高不委員我們你確定是有夠過分的"},{"start":5776.178,"end":5793.845,"text":"我們還是必須考慮租稅的中立性跟公平性啦但是我們了解醫療院所的我們的醫生的一些他工作的一個特殊性所以我們會來檢討這個合理性你的多久可以討論出來這個我們會看跟衛福部一起合作兩禮拜一個月應該是沒辦法這麼快一個月可能也沒辦法這麼快"},{"start":5798.639,"end":5809.105,"text":"我們會積極來處理兩個聯席會一直來跟你K我們可能也需要一些Data來研究看怎麼樣的加班時數比較合理報告一下這個衛福部我們有請健保署這位很會心會心還是會心很會心地做了很多的討論很會心地做了討論也很用心地跟"},{"start":5828.295,"end":5844.666,"text":"現在是請醫院協會因為這個科別有它的複雜不同性所以我們用最快的適度所以我想也拜託財政部能夠用最快的適度因為希望在今年能夠完成這樣的一個制度那明年就可以來"},{"start":5858.175,"end":5869.954,"text":"現在他就看一半乾淨跟那些醫院是救人的單位啦所以那個我們開刀絕對不會開到一半就停因為他的想法跟我...跟你就不一樣啦"},{"start":5871.598,"end":5884.323,"text":"他是算不太年輕 他很年輕他的生活就跟我們不一樣 你們常常說的理想 為了陪人 救人什麼的說那些五四三的 現在都沒在聽 我們那個時代真的是要有這樣站在內地 但是現在不一樣所以 現在很specifical的所以這 施主長你趕緊啦 一個月 一個月 一個月"},{"start":5900.149,"end":5921.16,"text":"我們會要求臺灣醫院協會盡快希望在幾天之內就能夠提出來提出來以後就請負稅署能夠財政部能夠做然後我們這邊相關的成績衛護部的高階會議也一直在討論怎麼樣把它落實那最重要就是財政部這邊我自己都吵死了對不起"},{"start":5922.081,"end":5929.174,"text":"因為 部長你這個案對的請人家是要執行你硬是要執行就對了啊你就要看要怎麼"},{"start":5931.036,"end":5954.288,"text":"實行上的那個態度有很多很多嘛你不要再火上加熱讓我們這個這個已經很慘了會員說明我們願意來跟醫院來協助他們相關的法尊的輔導我想這我們都願意做但是我們做這件事情正是我想大家都很在意醫護人員的勞動權益我們正是因為重視醫護人員的勞動權益到時候醫院就一句話就"},{"start":5955.248,"end":5958.53,"text":"都吵死了 現在在開桌 開桌房已經滿載了反正叫你把你撒出去撒出去 我們請什麼在地財 因為鄉村再來當工 當工在意高雄 都在地財其實我們其實針對警察的手術如果說我要給你撲"},{"start":5972.703,"end":5992.607,"text":"我們如果針對緊急性的連續手術其實是我們有開了一個這個牢記法的裡面相對應的這個彈性其實如果是因為緊急手術他沒有辦法如時間的下班的話其實在這邊是有彈性的所以不用那個問題其實我們現在看到最多違反的問題就是不給加班費不給加班費這有助於流財嗎"},{"start":5997.188,"end":6015.203,"text":"不給加班費,難道我們就是應該沒有沒有,1.25億的要求,1.25億的薪資的調整我在這裡也跟你承諾為了不給我們的錢,健保提供員的錢我們大部分都用在改善勞動條件,增加薪資這個我們可以承諾,我們也可以責成醫院協會跟區議員協會"},{"start":6017.608,"end":6026.914,"text":"每一張碼放在一起都在改善 市場已經改善 大家都變我們從數據上面 統計上面看到最多的就是沒有如實給加班費 這個我們來努力這個難道不給加班費 勞動部可以放鬆嗎好 那再來農業部 來來來我還有30秒 三十秒就好委員好"},{"start":6045.154,"end":6060.706,"text":"現在很多市街市地的來陳情來陳情都是我跟張嘉軒在一起我平常都在市地市街市街兩個我們現在榮譽木美國進來的這些產品我們的關稅是多少"},{"start":6061.821,"end":6069.187,"text":"差不多6.5我們平均關稅是16.6我們去美國是平均5.幾那我們像豬肉進來的關稅是12.5我們給他收12.5現在如果他全部要求我們都領關稅像那個越南像印尼這樣全部領那我們會不會崩盤"},{"start":6079.943,"end":6086.308,"text":"應該是這樣說啦 其實美國跟我們的農產品貿易本來就是互相大家有來有去 譬如說我們的黃小玉大部分都從美國來我們這裡去美國的也有我們的譬如說我們蘭花啦 這裡的花卉 水產品所以本來就是互相在疊疊 啊疊疊的當然是台灣過程當中一定是大家在那 我也要替我們台灣的農業顧 啊他也相當希望他的農產品來台灣民關稅的話 譬如豬肉 牛肉本來就進來很多啦"},{"start":6107.466,"end":6129.349,"text":"那豬肉的話,現在進來的,如果是零關稅,這樣大舉入侵進來到30%的話,我們的豬籠是會崩潰的,你們要怎麼保護,你們有配套嗎?我們特別預算上禮拜通過5000多億,裡面有一部要給農業的,夠不夠?沒有的話它是沒有屋頂的,我們是打開屋頂"},{"start":6130.61,"end":6142.837,"text":"感謝委員支持臺灣的農業當然那是面對全世界的問題我們農業自己要站得住站得好不只是保護我們自己的農業我們也要農業要出口所以感謝我們的特別條例我們臺灣的豬肉一公斤是95塊成本美國進來是差不多60塊如果在12.5%的關稅拿掉剩下50塊不到"},{"start":6154.923,"end":6156.865,"text":"所以稻米現在美國每年出口320萬噸比台灣出產的還多我們稻米現在一公斤也是50塊那美國進來的才35塊如果要零關稅的話"},{"start":6178.359,"end":6190.868,"text":"所以我賺20幾塊 30塊我們台灣的稻米跟北海道的稻米一本硬幣要賺就要賺稻米嘛對不對坦白說我昨天站在我們台灣都站不住了站不住啦 站不住要怎麼保護啦站不住啦 站不住啦我們站不住的拜託大家支持啦"},{"start":6194.611,"end":6195.011,"text":"接下來我們請圖圈級委員"},{"start":6235.438,"end":6240.564,"text":"好 謝謝主席那先請我們勞動部 黃部長請黃部長 還有我們勞動條件司 黃司長請司長 還有勞動關係司 王司長"},{"start":6250.094,"end":6252.295,"text":"台豐丹納斯重創嘉義台南電感導斷2000多支台電的員工當然很辛苦 作業不休"},{"start":6266.664,"end":6291.195,"text":"搶休那現在有台電的員工家屬也有反應先生一個多禮拜在外奔波也希望能夠早日回家休息那當然網友聽了也都鼻酸那這段這段時間台電也釋放了很多台電員工在晚間並排用餐的辛勞的照片那當然社會上也引起很大的共勉那當然我們"},{"start":6291.835,"end":6305.402,"text":"行政院也打蛇髓棍上 說這次的特別條例沒有撥補一千億是愧對台電的員工那但是在昨天七月十六號台灣電力產業工會串聯台電"},{"start":6308.775,"end":6332.963,"text":"新營區高雄區的企業工會發布聲明說呼籲台電儘速釐清電感導斷的原因也喊話中央拼命工作甚至被工作的時候還有吃飯的時候還要擺拍那他們也說並不是為了讓政府高層拿來做撥補台電遷移政治的大文宣的素材"},{"start":6334.093,"end":6350.75,"text":"那針對這部分請問一下我們勞動部那基層台電員工反映被要求工作的時候吃飯的時候要擺拍那其實這應該也是超出他的工作範圍那有沒有違反我們勞動法令或者勞動契約這個跟突然說沒有其實當然我們有看到這個"},{"start":6358.897,"end":6378.662,"text":"電力產工那他們這個相關的意見但我們也看到台電的台電公司的工會那也提出了很不一樣的看法所以我想一定要去說這一定是擺拍或者是有沒有違反我想這個"},{"start":6381.131,"end":6405.951,"text":"呃我想我們都應該是要站在台電基層工員工的角度來去做思考那給予台電的基層的員工更多的尊重那跟協助好那部長你看一下這是我們網路有流傳他們的截圖喔台電的長官有要求他們在事故搶修拍照的作業流程喔連要橫拍豎拍都有講究那"},{"start":6406.791,"end":6422.202,"text":"這一部分我們想了解針對勞動部認為這一部分有沒有強迫勞工做工作以外的事情而且畢竟這是基層工會員工他們反映的我相信台隊員工他有反映出來我相信他們應該是不會說謊"},{"start":6426.263,"end":6453.743,"text":"對不起我沒有看到這個我可能要再看一下這些相關的資料但我還是覺得最重要的原則是對於基層員工的支持跟尊重我覺得這是最重要的事情所以我想請教為什麼希望能夠編列一千億的這個特別預算來去協助其實也是基於這個想法我今天是希望勞動部去了解一下台電裡面有沒有這樣子的事情發生那畢竟你看他把這個"},{"start":6454.744,"end":6471.785,"text":"截圖已經都截出來了你看到台電的長官要求他們要這樣去做然後員工也反映他認為這基本上已經不是他工作範圍的他們已經很辛苦了結果還要在工作的時候吃飯的時候長官還要求他們要去擺拍"},{"start":6472.606,"end":6487.067,"text":"那他也已經反映出來我希望勞動部去了解一下有沒有這樣的情形那這樣的情形是不是有違反了這個勞動法令或者勞動契約的部分我想各種勞工的聲音其實我們都會去了解"},{"start":6489.91,"end":6509,"text":"還是那個原則希望給員工最多的尊重跟支持包括預算上的支持瞭解一下有沒有這樣的問題如果這樣的情形員工已經反映了是不是有違反勞動契約的問題希望部長們去幫我們瞭解一下我們可以來瞭解一下"},{"start":6509.56,"end":6537.009,"text":"後來這個事情也在發酵那經濟部有發聲明表示說台灣電力工會的會員人數近2.9萬人那涵蓋大概99%的公司同仁才是代表多數同仁意見的工會而台灣電力產業工會僅只有會員百餘人的團體那我請問一下部長那現在中央經濟部"},{"start":6538.61,"end":6544.896,"text":"他是最大的慣老闆嗎他百育人的團體他難道不代表員工的聲音嗎我其實不會是這樣看就是各種不同員工的聲音其實都應該看待所以"},{"start":6555.829,"end":6573.079,"text":"所以你認為經濟部發這個新聞稿對嗎那經濟部說新聞稿說他這個只是百餘人的小團體那就是繼我們之前部長郭志輝嗆台電的員工你看不下可以離開啊那到現在你經濟部還發這個新聞稿說基層員工自發組織的工會是小團體那小團體不用照顧嗎"},{"start":6581.705,"end":6599.088,"text":"跟陀苑說明,我想這個意思應該不是這樣,我自己在看到,我有看到這一篇,但我的理解比較是說其實也應該要重視這個電力工會,尤其是企業的電力工會他們的聲音跟他們的看法,我認為他的意思比較是這樣子"},{"start":6599.828,"end":6622.852,"text":"那我請問一下我們勞動關係是哪些人的意見就不需要重視電力工會的人數也很多那我們也應該要重視所以我覺得經濟部不應該發這個新聞稿說他只是100多人的團體那他不是歧視這100多人嗎對不對你不應該發這新聞稿啊我的解讀是他是說我們應該要重視員工反映他的聲音他居然第一時間說他這是小團體"},{"start":6623.012,"end":6641.665,"text":"我的解讀是他表達的事情是我們應該重視將近三萬的人的企業工會他們的聲音跟看法對啊百餘人也是員工也是勞工啊應該也是要重視怎麼第一時間說他是小工會所以我問一下我們勞動關係師王師長台電基層員工自行發起的組織工會台灣電力產業工會跟我們台電新營區處企業工會台電高雄區處企業工會"},{"start":6651.353,"end":6655.347,"text":"這些數是合法合規申請成立的正式公會組織"},{"start":6658.171,"end":6687.23,"text":"任委員報告目前除了台電力工會企業工會是過去長期就是一個大的企業工會然後因為在5月19號我們工會法新細則已經失效了所以到目前為止有一個是台灣電力新營區營業處企業工會有登記剩下的部分目前沒有好那他這有登記就是合法嗎對那有合法那我們經濟部資防這樣子質疑工會那不就是擺明在打壓工會嗎"},{"start":6688.791,"end":6693.034,"text":"是不是有構成不當的勞動行為我比較認為他是在重視台灣電力工會的意見"},{"start":6700.54,"end":6724.683,"text":"沒關係部長我今天提出來只是希望針對這部分因為我們勞動部啊應該是要照顧勞工啊我想了解一下那我想了解一下那如果針對這樣子的部分請勞動部幫我們了解一下他這樣子有沒有違反工會第35條的不當勞動的行為到時候了解一下給我們回覆他這樣子有沒有構成"},{"start":6725.919,"end":6750.828,"text":"我們當然可以來瞭解一下可是我的意思是說就那篇我有看了可是他的意思是說希望大家去重視台灣電力工會的意見跟想法沒關係啊 部長我們今天提出來因為這也是基層工會他們有提出這個反應他們已經有這個心聲那我是認為說勞動部是主管單位應該去瞭解一下有沒有這樣子的情形然後你認為我們可以來瞭解一下"},{"start":6751.808,"end":6777.547,"text":"對我希望說勞動部來重視啦畢竟他們已經有凸顯這一塊我覺得勞動部主管單位希望這個站在勞工的立場幫我們來瞭解一下勞動部一定是站在勞工的立場我們不會分哪一個工會齁那大工會小工會但我們一定是站在勞工的立場為勞工的利益來捍衛對我是希望經濟部在發這新聞稿的時候要注意啦不能說好像說他這個是大工會那是小工會你感覺你就是歧視小工會小工會也是勞工啊"},{"start":6778.928,"end":6783.239,"text":"好沒關係部長先幫我們了解一下那請我們衛福部邱部長"},{"start":6789.52,"end":6817.782,"text":"好 周部長我們衛福部今年一直推動我們護理人力改革包含今年調薪3%還有我們也編列了擴增公職護理人員的預算但是我們知道錢只是一次性的原因其實制度還有工作環境的改善應該才是最主要的那請問一下針對今年加薪3%我們有實際增加了多少人力嗎"},{"start":6819.755,"end":6840.402,"text":"那尤其在人力最缺乏的夜班跟急重症的這一塊有沒有獲得改善報委員您是在提部醫院這個部分嗎還是整個護理你調心3%嘛調心3%有沒有效果工時的嘛是有沒有實際的效果"},{"start":6842.324,"end":6870.796,"text":"因為醫院的整個護理人醫護的人力其實要包括全國的啦應該是要包括公司沒關係到時候看一下我想了解一下你們做的這部分對於實際人力上有沒有改善那我們要了解一下我們三班護病比的獎勵全台灣有27家醫院這個獎勵是掛零的那代表什麼說這些醫院他根本沒有請到夜班的護理師"},{"start":6871.696,"end":6898.463,"text":"好 謝謝委員 隨請這個招募司司長跟報告一下我們現在27家裡面有一家是醫學中心12家是區醫院那其他都是地區醫院那這個醫學中心他的問題是在於他過去是區域然後升到醫學所以他標準增加了那其中有一家區域是從地區醫院進來的所以因為標準增加所以他沒有辦法達到那大部分的這個地區醫院"},{"start":6899.676,"end":6918.879,"text":"很多大概有八九家呢其實是因為他完全沒有通報他的住院人日那也就是說可能他沒有收住病人對那我們看一下27家掛聯然後這個獎勵最多的前五名其實都是醫學中心那我們"},{"start":6920.08,"end":6947.128,"text":"反觀這些獎勵金掛鈴的幾乎都是地區醫院跟區域醫院那最主要大部分都在偏鄉那所以我們擔心這些偏鄉的醫院本來就存在人力短缺的問題那針對這一部分我們有沒有來追蹤這些醫院人力的問題跟委員報告就是地區醫院這個11家裡面就是有8家"},{"start":6947.868,"end":6951.489,"text":"他就是目前我們看起來他都沒有通報他的三班的病人數跟護理人力那他們的護理人員數也都是在20到30之間所以這個我們現在也會再進一步了解他個別的原因是什麼不過從目前的掌握的資料是他可能也沒有收住病人"},{"start":6968.853,"end":6986.179,"text":"對 因為我現在比較擔心因為我自己選區裡面有五間醫院那這裡面只有部桃新屋分院有拿到這個獎勵金那針對這些吊車尾的這些醫院衛福部到底有沒有提供輔導機制來輔導這些偏鄉的醫院目前那個針對個別性的我們針對個別性有在做一個更針對個別性的瞭解然後看看用什麼方法來協助這樣子"},{"start":6998.584,"end":7018.572,"text":"那還有這些醫院拿了巨額的獎勵金之後我們看衛福部這個平台他們有沒有回報我們怎麼看不到這公開的資料也看不到這獎勵金到底是醫院拿走還是有實質回饋到我們基層的人員身上目前這個獎勵金是在6月19號播出去的那我們的播出去的跟原來的規定就是說醫院要把這個獎勵金呢"},{"start":7028.216,"end":7045.957,"text":"針對個別醫院的這個缺口做差異性的流論措施的分配那目前各家醫院都有不同的設計也在大概每家醫院我們現在了解是大家醫院應該都已經準備好那個要做的方法了但是接下來他們就會公告在醫院裡面"},{"start":7047.138,"end":7070.94,"text":"因為我們現在比較擔心就是因為我們選區比較偏向都是一些地區醫院小醫院那而且這互併比的比例跟條性3%而且像我們地方沒有這些醫院都是一些診所那他又不適用這些診所所以我們反而擔心這些基層的診所像我的觀音區啊你獎勵金跟"},{"start":7071.806,"end":7096.307,"text":"跟調薪都是針對醫院反而基層的診所這些都沒有照顧到會不會這些人員反而都跑到醫院去變成我們基層診所這些待遇影響到反而變成他的人力影響更大現在目前那個診所的獎勵健保署有相關的專案在做支持作為他的醫護人力的這個留任"},{"start":7097.045,"end":7116.513,"text":"好 我希望我們來注意一下因為我們現在比較擔心你這樣子的方式變成像我們這些比較偏鄉的基層診所反而缺工會更嚴重所以希望我們衛福部針對這些看有沒有一些輔導機制有沒有一些改善的方法能夠注意到我們偏鄉這些基層診所的人力"},{"start":7117.593,"end":7134.239,"text":"我們觀音鄉那邊的確偏鄉的醫療資源是比較需要加強我們會去了解這些地區醫院他們實際上的狀況那在診所的一個協助方面我們也會全力來協助讓偏鄉的民眾能夠得到"},{"start":7135.059,"end":7153.427,"text":"對 因為我擔心你這個條性跟獎勵金到時候反而影響基層診所造成他人力更短缺所以這部分希望部長幫我們了解一下我們不同的地區有不同的文化所以我們會去特別做對啊 要多輔導啦不然這些基層診所人力更短缺對於他們醫療資源更匱乏好 謝謝好 謝謝部長好 謝謝圖委員 謝謝部長那繼續我們請賴會員 委員質詢"},{"start":7166.967,"end":7170.152,"text":"謝謝主席 有請勞動部部長黃部長請部長你好"},{"start":7179.642,"end":7208.022,"text":"我是在這一次丹納斯颱風重創整個南部我是重災區的重災因為本席的11個區域全部全部都是在沒有中央山脈的一個屏障然後在7月6號17級的這個強風直接吹到就是七谷北門還有那個布袋從這樣子登陸上來的時候你知道"},{"start":7208.863,"end":7232.934,"text":"部長在當初就是7月6號7月6號7月6號7月7號的時候我們初步的登記就是說在台電他倒了2454根的電線桿為什麼會倒了這麼多的電線桿其實那是因為風力太大沒有中央山脈的一個屏障還有各種的一個原因造成的"},{"start":7233.919,"end":7241,"text":"那台電出動了多少的一個人力一萬次的一個人力那如果我們要講"},{"start":7242.768,"end":7269.099,"text":"電力產業工會這個近100人的台電的員工跟我們台電電力工會近3萬人的這個員工的一個工會哪一個講的比較精準我想兩個工會講的都精準部長因為電力產業工會是台南市的區域性的一個工會那台南市的區域性的一個工會其實受創我想他們應該是"},{"start":7271.454,"end":7286.186,"text":"最嚴重最嚴重他們的感受是最深最深的如果這個時候在救災的過程當中還有這麼多的一個口水的話是不應該的當你們看到我們整個整個就是在這幾個區域裡頭"},{"start":7288.388,"end":7311.753,"text":"你在每一個大街小巷看到的就是台電的工程車那個黃色的工程車在大街小巷裡頭 這樣的一個穿梭我們還需要這麼多的口水嗎 實在是不應該啊台電的員工每一個人都是這樣的一個投入啊府長 我覺得沒道理的 說這個沒道理的對一個工夫 三萬人對一個工夫 沒到一百人"},{"start":7317.202,"end":7343.223,"text":"想想看我們的心情啊當我們四天剛性需求停電的時候這些台電的人其實他們也是不眠不休的一個搶休啊你到了晚上兩點的時候你還有看到很多的一個工程車啊不這樣啦 不可以這樣啦我們的辦公室接到電話竟然台南沒有大罷免"},{"start":7345.124,"end":7359.041,"text":"這個停電的 停電的受災婦她卡來怎麼說 她說是不是因為我們不要支持你民進黨的大罷免所以你們不給我們送電開玩笑 台電哪有那種智慧性的一個送電那這樣台電就報死啊"},{"start":7361.325,"end":7387.451,"text":"怎麼會是這樣子跳躍式的呢所以你就知道說這整個狀況有多慘因為到了第四天絕大部分九成還沒有送電那你說台電很笨嗎不是那是受損的面積太大太大了大家沒有在那個地方看到的時候你們沒有辦法感受到這種世界末日那個數字都是折斷了是折斷的"},{"start":7390.134,"end":7401.442,"text":"我想所有不管哪一個工會我們都給他加油我們都給他加油吃飯要怎麼樣擺pose我覺得這個這個都是其次的問題啊"},{"start":7403.5,"end":7423.575,"text":"跟各位說明我想從農部的角度其實我們非常知道這一次丹納斯颱風那對於這個我們南部其實造成的這個重創跟損失的狀況那所以我覺得我們真的是現在應該給台電跟台電的基層的員工最大最大的支持"},{"start":7424.575,"end":7445.354,"text":"那在這裡面真的不用有這些不必要的口水或者把它做政治化的標籤我覺得這些真的都不必要那什麼樣能夠給他們最大的支持最大的尊重我覺得現在才是政府跟這個社會最該做的事情沒有錯沒有錯部長加油謝謝那我先請那個農業部那個杜長翅"},{"start":7450.877,"end":7469.712,"text":"長次,這個大量式颱風帶來的一個豪雨,這17級的豪雨已經造成就是整個大台很大的一個災情的損失那短短的一週的那個強降雨,它其實已經高達357毫米就等於是高過整個六月份的降雨量355"},{"start":7471.613,"end":7492.584,"text":"你看喔短短幾天喔那這個災情受損的嚴重要跟你來探討一下就是說農業的一個災情那我們知道就是說農業部到目前為止我們看到的就是說不管在農產還是畜牧還有遺產那總共損失了27億那這個是初步這是初步這個27億裡頭台南有10億多有10億多"},{"start":7498.567,"end":7521.781,"text":"好 那我簡單的讓你看一下這一個背景今天總統在五天去了兩次那我們看到了就是文旦 文旦受損的情形部長 次長 那個文旦過五十天 就可以收了結果在整個麻豆跟下影的文旦你看現在掉滿地 這個九層 九層幾乎都是掉到地上去了"},{"start":7523.138,"end":7545.985,"text":"為什麼他們會掉這麼多的陳述你知道當然風大雨大還有就是說他其實準備要休息了這個時候他相關的資深什麼其實都跟這個時候真的看起來都要流汗這真的所以你要看農業部如何協助農民相關的損失這個是本席今天要跟你探討的在這個"},{"start":7549.026,"end":7566.258,"text":"農業裡頭的一個毀損毀損還有農業設施裡頭那你大概就是說簡單的跟你討論了幾個問題在整個農業天然災害的一個救助紓困的一個措施我們看到了非常的一個清楚"},{"start":7567.94,"end":7578.957,"text":"這個現金的一個救助 天災的一個貸款 還有新增半年免息的一個措施你們有沒有在研議有有有 因為表示說 其實比如你多給我一點時間喔 抱歉我重災重災婦抱歉"},{"start":7583.223,"end":7586.944,"text":"現在真的很嚴重 包括譬如說以後我們一年就只收而已嘛所以今年如果沒收什麼 你說要再支付明年的要再一些財政或是一些經費可能會比較困難包括貸款的還款也是有壓力所以這個部分我們來演繹說譬如說還款可以延長免利息的時間也來延長 讓我們可以延長多久"},{"start":7604.991,"end":7623.491,"text":"我們現在免利期本來就是半年了那是不是有沒有辦法延長到一年因為這個有前例在這個2009年8月的時候到2010年1月的時候其實我們政府就支應了榮保跟國民年金這個是半年"},{"start":7624.372,"end":7638.549,"text":"可是在2021年3月的時候我們遇到了百年大旱 寒流還有COVID-19的一個沖襲那政府就宣布免貸款免息一年 這個都不是首例啦都不是首例 因為他就沒休息 還要再給他還錢這個事情 心理壓力很大 這我們了解"},{"start":7643.294,"end":7664.728,"text":"所以希望就是說次長待會去研究還有在整個沿海地帶有很多的一個養殖業現在面臨到一個困境就是說這些養殖業你看死掉的這些沙巴魚還有這些餘溫裡頭的所有的遺產為什麼沒有人撈啊因為這個死的面積太大了"},{"start":7665.709,"end":7685.868,"text":"那你這麼大的一個面積的時候,你光靠現有的人力光是靠國軍的人力,光靠這個替代役的人力,沒辦法啦那你的機械呢?你的機械是不是應該要進來?你要怎麼樣協助這些人?因為他再來的後面延伸的就是環境的一個汙染"},{"start":7687.029,"end":7713.535,"text":"環境的一個汙染,那後續怎麼樣來處理所以就是說,市長這個非常重要,不是不可能你前面都已經有那麼多次了啊這要快點清掉啦,一個就是說我也跟青雲業者,我們自己都沒說,可以借到車要說一些文匯上,我們都要到處...我跟你講,如果農業沒有去認定這是農業上的一個損失的話,環境部不知道啦"},{"start":7715.16,"end":7722.848,"text":"環境部不知道啦這個非常清楚我們這十天在地方一直在張羅這些事情所以農業部的一個農損的一個認定還有你的資產的一個認定這個是農業部你們必須要快速去認定的不然你那邊的本首都靠那邊了好 再給我一點時間"},{"start":7738.463,"end":7760.04,"text":"過一段時間 農業的天然救助跟紓困的措施 拜託長治趕快啟動 然後重減 重寬不要造成那麼大的一個民怨尤其就是在整個海域裡頭 沿岸裡頭幾乎都是老弱殘兵"},{"start":7760.58,"end":7782.526,"text":"有啦,所以APP企業這邊很多人有上傳,這第一條,阿第一條我們農金署如果收到,收到資料一、兩天裡面一定報款,因為大家這個地方很要緊那我們知道現金的救助跟天然的一個貸款,這個已經是在運行中了可是我們希望這個免息半年延長到一年,免息半年延長到一年,然後救災基金夠不夠"},{"start":7784.079,"end":7809.03,"text":"你的農業救災基金夠不夠 39.6億夠不夠沒夠嘛 一定沒夠沒夠你要動用第二億倍金 你要多少錢啊我們比較快來處理錢的事情沒有 你是有處理還是沒處理有一定要處理 因為絕對沒夠對 所以你要儘快因為動用到第二億倍金 所以你要快謝謝委員支持 在這裡我還特別就是說跟農業部 勞動部 還有衛福部"},{"start":7811.511,"end":7827.008,"text":"怎麼樣去減免災民的健康保險國民年金的費用 外務部部長這個也請你跟我們跨部會的去研擬因為這個都有潛力的 已經有潛力了我們也希望就是說 你們可以比照辦理"},{"start":7828.622,"end":7850.639,"text":"很艱苦的然後還有就是災民的醫療那個災民的醫療還有安置還有照顧的一個措施那我們知道就是整個災後的一週登革熱是最嚴重的這也是一個關鍵我不知道衛福部有沒有啟動什麼樣的一個措施協助那個民眾的一個預防"},{"start":7852.423,"end":7879.543,"text":"我們在第一時間已經整個去了解到整個運轉的情況剛剛有報告那至於受災的醫療院所我們也去盤整在健保的一個提供方面會給他比較合理的一個處理來幫助他運轉我們知道你的那個慰問金已經有出來的嘛死亡嘛還有失蹤的是20萬嘛重傷的是5萬嘛有關於預防登革後疾患史來啟動的相關的一個策略"},{"start":7880.023,"end":7906.492,"text":"部長 我要說 你的考驗來了喔這個風災過後 那個是滿個屋子都是蚊子在揮喔這個況且有很多龍損到現在是沒有辦法處理的喔這個整個環境是非常糟糕非常糟糕的你要加強地方政府衛生局的一個消毒要支援它 好不好是 全力以赴 全力以赴 全力以赴好 謝謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝內委員苦民所苦 謝謝部長"},{"start":7909.817,"end":7911.018,"text":"主席好 我先請我們洪森漢部長"},{"start":7933.331,"end":7954.284,"text":"邱院長部長好那我想請問一下這次台電員工搶修電力設備這個設施遭受電擊的公安這個職災的事件你們職安署南區職安中心昨天有去現場做這個勞檢發現現場個人防護具確實沒有使用沒有戴絕緣手套所以遭電擊是嗎"},{"start":7957.828,"end":7979.959,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子我們南區中心接獲報告以後有去釐清整個災害發生的原因那初步來看的話在台電公司平常在做這樣的一個維修作業或這個修復作業基本上它有完整的一個SOP但是因為在這次的一個緊急搶救的時候可能在聯繫協調的問題造成這個我們這個離災勞工他誤以為這條線是已經斷電了"},{"start":7986.502,"end":8011.698,"text":"所以他沒有配戴這個防護手套所以這樣子聽起來是誰的責任基本上在治安法上面就是因為你們昨天的報告你們昨天的報告是說聽起來很好聽但是就是說一套看起來很客觀很溫和的話術來暗示的是勞工自己沒做好防護我覺得這個對於我們的基層的這個台電員工這個不太公平"},{"start":8012.699,"end":8023.701,"text":"那當然我們沒有認為是歸咎於勞工個人的問題那這樣最好 當然啦我們這次是發生了所以發生了我們當然現在是解決問題當然我覺得對受傷這個台電員工我們要更加的這個先照顧人家還在醫院那這個時候當然我覺得剛剛你講對了那個潰線他為什麼會有電那條線為什麼沒有斷電有去查了嗎"},{"start":8044.211,"end":8062.106,"text":"跟委員報告初步了解原因是這樣那細部我們還要繼續做職業障礙的調查那什麼時候才能夠出來你現在不出來因為南部現在幾乎還在搶救對不對所以你這個原因不找出來那未來是不是還是不能保證不會發生這樣的事情啊"},{"start":8065.168,"end":8092.638,"text":"那個邱委員當然我們都希望不過的確現在很多的部分還在還在調查中但是我想還是很清楚我們希望台電在這個當然替我們這麼多的南部的災民盡快的來救災這部分我們很謝謝可是也希望台電也要同時也能夠把這個作業的安全給做好我想這這個是南部現在很清楚的立場是不是因為我在想是不是因為台電"},{"start":8093.698,"end":8105.551,"text":"他因為要搶著給我們這些民眾用電所以這個狀況造成了今天這個結果沒有做好一個SOP的一個流程"},{"start":8106.861,"end":8131.869,"text":"我想現在當然台電跟台電的員工們現在當然很著急著想要完成來協助我們災民這個恢復原本生活的這樣的人我覺得他們這個心是很著急的我知道因為大家受災戶這些他們當然很著急當然我知道台電也很認真可是我覺得在做這個事情的時候我們該做的防護該做的一定的這個流程還是要做不能因為急著"},{"start":8132.409,"end":8153.824,"text":"要幫這個我們這個受災戶復電然後用我們台電員工的這個生命去來換電這個是非常非常不得是當然我們希望能夠兼顧近早的復電我想這是全民的希望包括南部我們災民的希望但也希望台電同時要把這個作業安全給兼顧給做好"},{"start":8155.245,"end":8171.112,"text":"還有一點我要提醒就是說這些台電員工或者是外包員工連續搶修這麼多天在這個搶修期間是不是出現工時嚴重超標的問題是這個最長工時是多少我希望你們勞檢局你去查了沒有"},{"start":8171.872,"end":8193.709,"text":"我想我們有來查其實就是他其實會有一個因為天災等等的原因所以會突發狀況所以這個會需要做相關的通報那就我們目前去去查查台電公司是有針對我們的地方政府有來做通報好啦我希望大家同理心好不好那請部長休息我們請這個邱部長"},{"start":8198.703,"end":8222.955,"text":"委員好部長好總統府有健康台灣推動委員會的副召集人陳志宏教授在衡量醫療體系氣候韌性的推薦序就說了台灣的醫療體系在面對極端氣候的時候有很多先天體質不良的問題包括第一個急救跟慢性疾病照顧很容易中斷病人要去醫院要轉診"},{"start":8224.136,"end":8247.386,"text":"碰到災難他就會直接卡死那第二個資源調度不容易尤其是偏鄉根本等不到人也等不到設備像疫苗血液這些冷鏈保存的物資一旦斷電物流停擺就會立刻出現問題那第四個最嚴重的是人力我們的醫護早就過勞了還要在災後連續上陣根本撐不久"},{"start":8248.146,"end":8274.075,"text":"這就讓我不得不再問一次我們賴清德總統在2023年選舉期間明明公開承認兩年內要完成三班護病筆這個入法但是你們您在7月14日接受訪問的時候說醫院人力還不夠先入法會引起不一樣的做法所以我們慢慢鼓勵慢慢努力所以我想請部長我要你講清楚這兩年內的承諾會實施嗎"},{"start":8278.797,"end":8290.664,"text":"謝謝委員的推行,指出我們台灣醫療體系有很多困境,也感謝委員一直關心怎麼樣來改善這個部分,所以為什麼會推動健康台灣這樣的一個計畫?"},{"start":8297.348,"end":8319.59,"text":"裡面一個很重要的就是我們增加賦予的人力其中一個就是三班互併比的一個鼓勵我們現在的制度是鼓勵先行隨著在標竿學習在華字化不然我還是不要繞那麼遠我就問一句嘛那兩年內有辦法做到嗎因為"},{"start":8323.289,"end":8347.452,"text":"跟委員報告,這個因為要牽涉到我們,要人力夠如果是你的兩年內是從什麼時候算?明年的520能做到嗎?對,我們總統已經指出一個政策的方向我聽你講,你也不敢保證明年的520以前會入法,對吧?"},{"start":8350.444,"end":8372.956,"text":"因為議院還是要讓他慢慢的那總統說的兩年內他是認真的還是隨便講講來騙選票用的這個政策是非常重要的一個方向我們也全力以赴我知道你們都在努力啦可是我問的時候我要問的是這句話有沒有兌現的一個機制比如說時程"},{"start":8374.412,"end":8394.004,"text":"進度,你們有自己給定自己一個標準嗎?一個時程嗎?因為我們要定標準是比較容易,但是要如何讓它真的順利來進行,不影響到人民照顧的一個健康的權利,包括很多噴箱,今天圖前級委員也提到,看到很多噴箱,兩年內要入法,"},{"start":8397.546,"end":8425.302,"text":"那如果做不到這樣壓時間隨便承諾還是您認為總統的政見不重要我們一定一步一步的往總統的政見來落實來實現但是他講兩年啊你有辦法做到嗎這個時間上我們會把它做得更周延因為如果只是鼓勵沒有進度這就不叫政見一定有進度現在是基層護理師他希望有一個答案那你不敢正面回答他們不敢回答那兩年內三班護病比入法做得到還是做不到我就知道這個嘛"},{"start":8429.161,"end":8447.395,"text":"我們會努力啊 而且是真的一直在努力從現在的鼓勵剛剛也有報告過了那現在有進度嗎 我先講 你有進度嗎比如說我們經過這陣子的努力 我們的醫學中心可以到達六成已經達到三萬戶論比你剛剛講的是 你是發用獎勵的方式嘛 對不對"},{"start":8453.319,"end":8479.961,"text":"那這個獎勵方式就是讓醫院你發了5.47億這個獎勵金沒有錯但入法進度這個幾乎是零我知道衛福部花了很多的心力那推出這個獎勵機制鼓勵醫院改善排班但是一個很核心的問題如果今天獎金可以取代入法那當初我們就不應該這個要講說這個兩年內要入法那我知道這一次有363家醫院拿到三班護病費的獎勵金"},{"start":8481.883,"end":8510.183,"text":"但這個獎勵金的門檻有兩班達標就可以領我知道你們的規定是這樣那所以我想了解過去一年裡三班都達標的護病比等於是完整達標的醫院有幾家三班不是兩班這個請市長回答一下我們有三個層級那這個醫學中心醫學中心大概可以達到五層以上那區醫院大概是"},{"start":8512.592,"end":8534.509,"text":"35%到45%之間那地區醫院的話大概可以85%到90%之間可以達到好那另外有27家沒有領到我看了一下其中有5家是我們不立院這是不是代表我們直接在管理的不立院我們都沒有辦法來配合你們有去了解這個原因嗎"},{"start":8535.205,"end":8558.541,"text":"有,那部立院因為他比較有特別的任務,包括社區各方面的人力所以他的護理人力會比較需要配合社區整個國家的政策所以他在達標上會比較辛苦一點,但是這個我們都會給予支持來"},{"start":8559.562,"end":8579.733,"text":"因為我還要再問一個就是說你這些獎勵發下去之後我剛剛有聽到你說讓各醫院自己去調配去發放那我更關心的是我們護理留言到底有沒有領到這個獎金他們到底領到了多少他們領到現在直接領到的當然就是月班獎獎勵金你確定他們都拿到嗎"},{"start":8581.022,"end":8609.957,"text":"這個沒有問題 這個如果沒有拿到就這個絕對沒有問題不要變成口號啦因為這個問題其實是非常嚴重的我們台灣的現在的狀況 醫療狀況真的真的是非常緊急隨時都可能爆掉那我們不希望我們希望好這個護理人員能夠好好留下來工作那給他們一個更好的一個待遇這個我覺得衛福部要趕快來想辦法我們有十二個措施一直在改善這樣的一個對 我還是要那句話我希望部長"},{"start":8611.499,"end":8615.592,"text":"剛剛講的 路法你的任內會不會 我們賴總統的任內會不會完成"},{"start":8617.366,"end":8645.567,"text":"你直接給我答案就好我想應該可以法制化可以嗎?會達到法制化你能答應嗎?你能保證嗎?我們會全力以赴好謝謝最後一個我再問一下我們賴清德總統說要打造健康台灣結果現在充滿漏洞的實驗地域先蓋好這個地域就是你們每一個部會親手施工集體完成的成果那台大女這個女卒台視大女卒被強迫抽血做研究那"},{"start":8646.388,"end":8661.348,"text":"我們衛福部指出教育部要依法辦理那我覺得很奇怪就是人體研究法的機關不是在衛福部嗎你們林靜儀次長又在臉書撇清衛福部責任你們都是醫生你看不出來這搓血行為是有問題的嗎"},{"start":8662.845,"end":8679.279,"text":"我想這個部分早上也有報告跟大家報告過第一個就是說如果以人體研究法那當然是衛護部的那個主管那至於人體研究的一個就是他的監督、實行或者是"},{"start":8680.14,"end":8696.942,"text":"可是他這樣不是就違反你們的規定嗎是由研究機構的事業主管機關所以學術機關你是不管的他們要怎麼玩都可以啊我們是尊重事業主管機關去做調查那你立這個法是幹什麼呢我們這個法就是製造一個就是來"},{"start":8698.964,"end":8721.76,"text":"那個法然後我們讓定了相關的規定然後讓世衛主管機關他們去執行我們院長都說話 衛福部要負該負的責任那你覺得衛福部接下來要做什麼好 我們第一個我們當然學生的人權跟社教權保護這是絕對不容模糊的第二個我們當務之急就是趕快"},{"start":8723.141,"end":8733.284,"text":"把學生的受教权能夠看看能不能保護第二個就是他們的身心狀況我們也啟動了心理健康方面的系統那台灣現在到底還有多少這種人體實驗呢人體實驗是沒有在醫療場所進行的有幾個"},{"start":8741.284,"end":8762.771,"text":"這個可能要去了解一下對我覺得部長這是你的職務這是你的業務範圍所以我覺得你應該要全權掌握吧因為這樣的實驗會觸犯的法律包含我唸給你聽醫師法、護理人員法、人體研究法、感染管制相關法規、傳染病防治這些都是衛福部主管的範圍"},{"start":8763.971,"end":8788.99,"text":"所以不要把這個事情都推給教育部我們現在是主持人他有沒有按照當時你去嚴格執行如果有牽涉到相關的法令我們當然一定嚴格執行好 謝謝部長好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請林淑恩委員質詢"},{"start":8799.464,"end":8806.907,"text":"謝謝主席 主席你剛剛講了14分鐘好 謝謝 我請邱部長部長 今天大家質詢很多台師大女足球隊的這個被教練周台英這樣強迫抽血不得退出的這一些這個事件"},{"start":8827.247,"end":8847.19,"text":"第一時間台師大可能違反研究倫理的這個案子你們的林靜儀次長很厲害馬上說這件事件的主角應該負責的是教育部不是衛福部依照人體研究法的確是這樣子沒有錯"},{"start":8848.351,"end":8871.256,"text":"然後接下來呢次長又說他個人的意見是說要關注利害關係權利不對等的狀況是非常重要的所以要特別注意這個倫理這樣子受試者應該要有明確的知情同意權不可以在被脅迫的狀況下為之而且要隨時退出了權利好 話講得這麼好聽然後這樣講了以後好像"},{"start":8873.917,"end":8876.358,"text":"我就覺得說難道衛福部完全都沒有任何一丁點需要檢討的地方嗎這個事情完全跟衛福部都沒有關係嗎今天聽了一個早上你們的劉悅平司長 喔很難聽 今天終於來了"},{"start":8892.542,"end":8895.945,"text":"劉月平司長今天有講他的論述更簡單他說這個事情都應該要照研究計畫的主持的目的事業主管機關就是教育部他們有審查了IRB那要看這個研究人員有沒有遵守"},{"start":8913.317,"end":8932.197,"text":"他們應該遵循的法尊是像IRB計畫有沒有遵守這樣在執行然後第二個 劉業平馬上說這個IRB計畫不是你們審的那內容你們也不知道所以也不知道他們有沒有遵守是吧 大概你們就這樣講 對吧"},{"start":8934.65,"end":8941.241,"text":"整齊都這樣說啊 意思是說跟衛福部都沒關係啦是台師大的問題啦 跟教育部的問題啦事實是不是這樣 保庭你說一下"},{"start":8946.111,"end":8959.636,"text":"好 謝謝委員的催省我想任何民眾有受到健康上的一個威脅你不要避重就輕 你知道嗎你今天在這裡 你們所值的理由就是說這個IRB不是你們審美主管機關是教育部這個研究界外的IRB內容你們不知道 對嘛 對嘛 是不是我們都一切依法辦理"},{"start":8975.381,"end":8983.888,"text":"很好我現在就是要跟你講依法辦理的事情我今天要再跟你講今天國科會副主委出來講了一件事"},{"start":8984.816,"end":9013.35,"text":"國科會副主委說全台灣一百多個大學裡面而體育學門有申請人體試驗的計畫數台師大遠遠超過其他學校的總和國科會的人體試驗的補助計畫台師大萊爾申請了占了所有補助計畫裡面的六成以上這是一個非常不尋常的事情或許這是一個全面性在體育學門長期以來存在的問題"},{"start":9014.531,"end":9016.892,"text":"OK 這事情有嚴重嗎 有啊 為什麼這麼嚴重誰讓這些學生要透過學分這樣威脅 畢業威脅讓他們沒有執行同意 不能行使退出權誰讓這些孩子哭 而只是這幾個孩子在哭嗎今天不是只有這些學生耶你看這很嚴重的可是我要問你一件事情"},{"start":9043.038,"end":9051.585,"text":"教育部在審查IRB的時候他們會知道他們會有足夠的專業去知道說IRB委員要聘請哪一些領域嗎他們會知道每天抽血三次連續抽血14天而這樣子的抽血行為對被抽血人的健康風險會有什麼樣的影響嗎教育部會有這個專業嗎教育部會有這個能力嗎你有給他任何行政指導嗎"},{"start":9072.862,"end":9079.804,"text":"你們衛福部不但沒有給他們任何行政指導我現在要講衛福部就是你所謂的依法行政裡面讓教育部讓台師大讓這些孩子這樣子在脅迫的狀況下恐懼的狀況下在那裡哭不得已才跑出來陳情讓他們哭的始作俑者我告訴你就是你們衛福部看這個公文"},{"start":9103.646,"end":9104.866,"text":"看這個公文來護理人員法解釋會編 108年好 那看你們的行政函式誰允許教育部來抽血 不需要專業的人力然後誰認為這個不是輔助醫療行為非侵入性 即便侵入性也沒關係是你們衛福部 101年因為"},{"start":9133.053,"end":9148.912,"text":"人體研究法通過以後大量的人體研究然後大家講說誰可以執行抽血的動作大家就寫公文來問你衛福部衛福部告訴大家你們不要假裝你不知道啦這個事情你們都知道啦"},{"start":9149.953,"end":9170.549,"text":"衛福部人家所詢學校護理人員如果是由學校護理人員受託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣他的釋法性應該是什麼最後一個所以你們說衛福部說研究計畫進行人體抽血抽樣非屬醫療行為也不是醫療輔助行為"},{"start":9175.953,"end":9197.807,"text":"讓他們可以亂找人有人來抽血抽到手發抖的不是校戶連不是校戶連叔叔伯伯阿姨是誰來抽血這些孩子都不知道抽到很痛在那裡哭一天抽三次連續抽14天讓孩子暴露在風險之下的就是這一張公文函式"},{"start":9199.168,"end":9227.487,"text":"這一張公文好像是有講說至學校護理人員 如果是學校護理人員系授託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣上街計畫應經人體研究法相關規定審查通過 使得為之OK看起來是什麼意思 不知道欸 不知道欸他是說校務可以抽 要放到計畫裡面審查通過就可以問題是 你這張函是憑啥這樣子說"},{"start":9229.188,"end":9254.53,"text":"你的外服部的這一張公文等於是法規了命令了他有法律未接法律效力你們今天一直講依法依法你們幫助台師大逃避法律的規範就是你們這一張函式不要再多說了你們的你們都很清楚醫事司司長自己也很清楚"},{"start":9255.971,"end":9259.955,"text":"你們今天在這裡為七成這麼多 你不敢說的就是因為你副師長講了 副師長受訪 劉玉京說研究中的抽血並不是醫療行為 也不是醫療輔助行為但因攸關受試者保護 必須要由校護或醫檢師執行"},{"start":9277.242,"end":9300.539,"text":"144就是根據這一張函式來的啦好 這個函式的進解是這樣子我現在就講說 奇怪了這個函式合法嗎?這個函式合理嗎?這個函式最大的問題就是對於涉及需要抽血的研究計畫進行抽血的人是沒有任何資格條件的限制"},{"start":9301.34,"end":9305.883,"text":"而且是完全沒有規定的只要IRB計畫審查通過就可以了因為人家來問你說校戶可不可以抽你們說只要放在計畫裡面有就可以了那你們沒有說校戶以外的人不能抽事實上有你們就是說不是醫療行為不是醫療輔助行為每個人都可以來執行抽血的任務你校戶要來抽的話放在計畫裡面通過就可以了"},{"start":9328.217,"end":9352.486,"text":"大貓阿狗來抽也可以放到IRB計劃裡面通過就可以了你們憑什麼這麼說 憑什麼市長來 你來講 伯弟你來 你來講你們憑什麼把這一張公文的函式 法律的依據在哪裡讓你可以允許讓這些孩子這樣子讓這些人暴露在健康的風險之下"},{"start":9353.839,"end":9361.008,"text":"憑什麼連續一天抽三次 連續十四天有風險的行為你們讓它合法化 憑什麼來 學長阿姨就可以抽"},{"start":9366.505,"end":9394.804,"text":"我先講一下第一件事情校護是護理人員也就是醫事人員我不講我不講校護了我現在你的這張函式是阿貓阿狗學長阿姨通通可以來抽沒有我覺得這是對於法令這邊我們在講的是本來人體研究法裡面的IRB就會進行受試者保護所以所有的東西必須程序這邊IRB這邊的在審查每一個計劃案的時候就應該就這個地方來做處理"},{"start":9396.745,"end":9415.541,"text":"我們人體研究法你們不需要訂出任何的行政指引給要做研究因為你把所有研究計畫的把關機制都交給要做研究的那個計畫的主持人的他的目的事業主管機關去核定去管理去監督IRB也交給他們"},{"start":9418.343,"end":9423.067,"text":"你們衛福部在人體研究法讓你們當主管機關之後你不用訂出任何的遵循的行政指導嗎你不用訂出任何的執法嗎來讓教育部搞不好還有體育部未來的體育部搞不好還有國科位"},{"start":9437.398,"end":9457.541,"text":"搞不好其他的農業部也可以來提研究計畫你認為他們有足夠的專業他們知道IRB要聘請哪種委員嗎你們外服部作為人體研究法的主管機關難道不用訂出相關的行政指導給這一些"},{"start":9458.542,"end":9468.729,"text":"目的事業主管機關嗎?你剛才說的都不符合裡面你們怠惰了這麼久,從一百二零一一年是吧,完成立法"},{"start":9470.901,"end":9499.32,"text":"2011年完成立法到現在都沒有做出任何行政指導放任放任這一些目的世界主管機關不知道把關的住把關不住隨便你到這一次事件爆發才知道衛福部不但是這麼的瀆職而且台師大案件凸顯了這一個101年你們含釋的不合理且沒有辦法保護受試者權益的缺陷"},{"start":9500.8,"end":9525.386,"text":"這個事件凸顯了你們怠乎職責然後你們的韓式不但沒有保護到這些受試者的權益而且還推他們入火坑所以你們難道不應該針對執行人體研究特別是收案地點不是在醫療院所的研究涉及到抽血的行為人員的資格框定做出清楚明確"},{"start":9526.346,"end":9554.194,"text":"而且要符合受試者權益保障的任何規範來給目的事業主管機關當指導嗎而且基於衛福部作為人體研究法規的主管機關三讀以後當時學校啦其他部會啦其他研究機構啦他們的研究案例不像現在這麼多所以經過了十幾年了"},{"start":9555.914,"end":9572.454,"text":"你們還繼續拿舊的韓式出來舊地合法化台師大這一個根本就是聽不下去合法不合情也不合理的合理的舊的韓式法規啦但不合情也不合理"},{"start":9574.517,"end":9601.459,"text":"的這種狀況 你們難道不用再檢討嗎還是像你們次長講的第一時間先甩鍋給教育部跟監察院不是我 我沒有 不關我的事跟衛福部無關就是台師大的這個案例才反映了你們這個含釋才了解到衛福部是今天讓這麼多孩子在你們那裡哭"},{"start":9603.058,"end":9614.405,"text":"然後才是今天這一種不違反倫理的假倫理的規範的這種研究案啦可以繼續在那裡執行"},{"start":9616.533,"end":9636.604,"text":"今天受試者參與研究是醫學研究進步的關鍵所有的受試者都應該在要知情同意的前提之下而且要理解自己參與研究的內容和權益今天還有你們的責任喔 還有一個喔他不准他退出他不准人家退出"},{"start":9643.936,"end":9650.922,"text":"然後用受教權人權被威脅這個你們不用訂出任何的規範嗎所有的研究計畫都要他們都送一個知情同意書出來被迫了那他要檢舉要去哪裡檢舉"},{"start":9669.656,"end":9695.043,"text":"本來在計畫裡面都有所以我們會強調被迫了要去哪裡檢舉當他們被脅迫不能畢業會怕他要去檢舉這個其實回到檢舉機制在哪裡他敢向學校檢舉嗎本來就可以本來就可以要去哪裡然後連記者去年就幫他們開記者會還是六個月前就幫他們開記者會連立委都幫他們開過了"},{"start":9696.303,"end":9700.065,"text":"你們有看到嗎立委開記者會的時候已經表示他們是被脅迫的為什麼你們沒有主動關心當他說我人體研究計畫我被強迫抽血我用畢業學分被威脅而曝光了立委也在立法院質詢也開記者會了"},{"start":9717.622,"end":9724.846,"text":"已經好幾個月以前了不是現在這一波請問你衛福部為什麼沒有作為請問你劉岳平司長都視若無睹很難受的劉司長要來立法院這裡被刑很難受的"},{"start":9735.004,"end":9751.348,"text":"視若無睹捏這樣要怎麼做 保證你怎麼視若無睹 你做保證多久啊他開記者會的時候 立委這個爆料的時候 質詢的時候 教育委員會的委員爆料開記者會的時候 你們做了什麼事 你們做了什麼事那時候已經違反人體研究法所有的規範了 你做了什麼事"},{"start":9758.291,"end":9770.559,"text":"包委員 這個要調查是要去調查我們計劃組織有沒有按照IRB對 那你調查了嗎從第一次曝光開記者會曝光到現在你剛才劉悅平還在講這個IRB內容你們不知道要去調查已經經過半年了 你現在還要去調查你們有動於衝啦不當一回事啦"},{"start":9783.087,"end":9790.49,"text":"你們就是不當一回事 無動於衷那你告訴我那你告訴我那你告訴我他們的IRB內容審查有沒有問題他們內容說什麼然後他們開記者會 叫立委開記者會說他們被強迫 他們要退出 他們被威脅你們又做了什麼你們做了什麼 這半年多來你們做了什麼"},{"start":9809.67,"end":9833.384,"text":"第一件事情因為教育部已經開始做處理所以我們才會是說那這樣子的話應該是等教育部給我們他的報告然後整體的機制來做一期的檢討現在就是層層掩護 層層的壓下來而才會有這一第二波的爆料和第二波的記者會"},{"start":9835.307,"end":9853.561,"text":"你還在講說第一波的時候教育部已經調查了所以你們就不管了你現在是在說笑的你在說笑的柏定你什麼時候再完成你們這一張不合理的韓式的漏洞的重新檢討柏定這一個韓式到現在還可以適用嗎還適當嗎第一個我們馬上來處理那個所有發生的問題韓式我要講制度面這個韓式我們馬上"},{"start":9866.135,"end":9871.039,"text":"好 很好 那你們需不需要訂出更多的行政指導給其他的目的事業主管機關你們要不要再去重新的檢討檢視你們人體研究法有沒有更多其實是需要衛福部訂出來的法規"},{"start":9889.752,"end":9902.181,"text":"對 其他目的事業主管機關在做監督在做IRB審查的時候他們可以有所依循你們是不是應該要主動做更多啊有沒有檢討空間有 一定有檢討空間因為事情已經發生表示說我們所有的相關的單位都應該要盡責任的去把它改善"},{"start":9912.668,"end":9917.849,"text":"不要再有下一次的發生我看你們劉月餅好像就覺得不當一回事還很想變啦我現在講說善意的為醫學或為科學進步去貢獻自己的受試者不應該在醫院參與研究有合格的這個"},{"start":9934.342,"end":9952.907,"text":"醫療人員抽血而在醫院和在社區參與研究卻有任由沒有受過訓練還邊抽血邊發抖的這一些人來抽這不是回報善意而且熱心參與研究的受試者該得到的對待當然"},{"start":9954.807,"end":9968.844,"text":"我很熱心的我很善意的我要回饋我們的醫學研究了那我去醫院抽我就有合格的人幫我抽而我到醫院醫療院所以外的你們就容許他讓這種阿貓阿狗邊抽血邊發抖的人來幫他們抽"},{"start":9972.408,"end":9997.996,"text":"這是不應該的 這不是回報這一些善意的人要參與研究 願意參與研究的人該有的這個回饋是的 是的 我們如果一定會協助去調查如果有違反IRB的 該設的究責的一定是MV的究責而且我們一定會檢討整個制度怎麼樣把它改善得更好對 還有很多制度面是你們應該要扛起來 要做更多沒問題 我們應該要負這個責任 謝謝"},{"start":10000.95,"end":10019.317,"text":"好,謝謝林淑文委員,謝謝部長你習慣了嗎?不好意思但是你不要改正了,最重要沒有沒有,這個應該要有專業證照的醫療人員才可以啦應該啦,這樣是不對的啦好,我們請陳冠廷你好,我們請農業部"},{"start":10034.801,"end":10051.546,"text":"是委員好市長好昨天有跟你談到關稅的部分今天先談救災然後我們再補充首先就是這一次我們是全品項這一次風災我們是全品項是嘉義台南都全品項對全品項但是有一些特殊品項的養殖業他們對於這些全品項的一些細部內容"},{"start":10051.926,"end":10079.654,"text":"可能不是認為說他們有沒有包含在裡面那都還會有一些問題所以這方面我們希望請農業部能夠先帶回去知道這件事情那我們其實辦公室已經有先跟農業部的專員先討論過了有一些比較特殊的品項羅類或者是少見的這些品項也是有實用性的那這個部分我們希望儘快有一個回應一般的縣府科長他們回應的時候也不太確定所以農業部可能要有一個比較清楚的部分"},{"start":10081.014,"end":10107.003,"text":"然後第二個部分就是這一次像是包含香蕉美工請示救助是八萬元那這是用一般災損去估算的可是我必須要強調這過去十年來這十年來其實沒有什麼大大的變化可是物價已經有很大的變化也就是說這一次強風帶來毀滅性的破壞他們還是用一樣的這種方式去補償的話我覺得可能沒有辦法讓他們能夠去重建"},{"start":10107.603,"end":10120.772,"text":"那一些交農來反映其實過去不管你說肥料啊成本啊資材啊已經至少是百分之一百五十跟過去幾年比較起來所以我是希望說可不可以在現行的額度之上針對當下是颱風啟動一次性的專案"},{"start":10124.654,"end":10146.343,"text":"災損的加成補助 專案加損的加成補助這個部分我希望可以帶回去來檢討因為除了我剛才提到說過去的這些成本在提高之外這十年來的成本在提高之外還有一些廢棄物的親民用還有一些物價等等這些都必須要納入考量這是第二點那第三點就是也請農業部來檢討一下就是多年生的高經濟作物"},{"start":10147.483,"end":10175.242,"text":"我們剛才提到香蕉或者是其他的或者是蔬菜葉類等等那些跟這種我們剛提到包含咖啡 茶或者是荔枝 龍眼 樹葡萄等作物他們的概念是不一樣的現在每公頃針對那些是5萬5到6萬2000元不同的標準可是我希望這種補助可以反映在多年生的這個木本作物的真實災損這不是補助 這是救助因為這是特別的救助我們還是希望能夠來檢討"},{"start":10177.483,"end":10201.82,"text":"有些是七年成素 十年成果那這次它是攔腰有些是攔腰 攔腰或許還有機會有些是整個年根拔起那等於是全面性的這十年都沒有辦法再去生產那這個問題我們去各個鄉鎮重番 鹿鄉 梅山鄉 中埔等等這個還是新港等等都有類似這樣子的問題出現所以再麻煩次長這個也能夠帶回去講"},{"start":10204.502,"end":10225.777,"text":"因為未來性持續性的損失這不是一次的那之前部長來我們加一的時候也有提到說因為連續兩年的災損那現在可能會有尼龍草那為了避免這些尼龍草我剛才提到的從這個一般的這些果物這些果實作物到我們剛才提到的多年生的木本這些作物如果我們不給它一個"},{"start":10226.998,"end":10240.035,"text":"最基本的救助的話我相信這個離農草是會出現的所以我還是要拜託農業部來盡快來去做這些類似的認定那再來就是關於災後貸款抱歉我今天要講比較快一點要再一次請那個次長來統一的回應"},{"start":10242.017,"end":10264.65,"text":"災後的貸款包含六個月的免息我認為利益很好可是我們很多受災的農民他是在災前為了響應政府的政策來提升競爭力像是有時申請了像是輔導農糧這個經營貸款增生網市或者是申請農機貸款來去購買設備可是這些溫室農機等生產的這些工具在一夜之間基本上都成了廢田"},{"start":10265.51,"end":10292.362,"text":"所以這個時候還是零收入但是還是要繼續來去償還這些既有貸款的利息所以這個部分政策型的這個相信災前已經申請的各種政策型的貸款是不是能夠比照災後貸款給至少半年的利息減免或者是還繳所以我知道這兩個貸款體系不同但是這是特例我們希望專案來處理可不可以至少給我們簡短的一些回應"},{"start":10292.742,"end":10306.017,"text":"好 簡單三點回應就從最後面來看因為其實現在農損有損失很珠是它救的錢它不會 等一下你要再繳款不管是利息或是本金都有壓力所以我們現在正在研究說不管是到幾種會合作會"},{"start":10308.019,"end":10333.286,"text":"現前借的 現在新借的我們都一致的把它拉長延緩或是免稅期限這樣對農民來說不太會撐開不然是很嚴重第二點就是因為他現在就是沒收入那沒收入怎麼辦呢在中間這一段的專案補助這個我們也會來想辦法特別是長年生的他現時是正年不在他今年沒到收成每年也不知道什麼時候所以這段專案性的我們也會來處理那第三點就是委員第一個提到的"},{"start":10333.806,"end":10347.942,"text":"現在最要緊的 協助農民趕快來親援也好 復援也好 跟他在現場做好可以讓他安心 這是第一要緊所以包括在那個 親運啦 協助這個 要協助我們的現場的人去做什麼 補助啦 有料啦 水電啦 這我們都會來做處理"},{"start":10351.425,"end":10358.287,"text":"對 我最開始的問題是說一些像是一些香蕉這種大規模的作物就是有工期現在是8萬其實是跟10年前差不多一樣我們專案來處理專案來處理就這一個專案好不好 先專案我們先救急好 謝謝謝謝委員支持謝謝陳委員 謝謝市長來 繼續我們請劉建國召委"},{"start":10382.35,"end":10383.498,"text":"謝主席 有請邱部長"},{"start":10385.731,"end":10413.104,"text":"部長今天召委的專題報告是這個前半段是因為嚴重災情緊急這個重大事件醫療院所承擔的這個救護量人的困境還有包含這近年來我們台灣人民很關心的這個議題就是如果台灣發生緊急狀況時不論要醫材或是這個專業人力到底夠不夠那部長先看這個表格這是近五年的護理人員的總職業率"},{"start":10414.895,"end":10440.282,"text":"我們是在下降中這109是63.26然後113是62.7也就109年的時候爆發的那個公民奶艇然後整個疫情延燒三年之久當時醫護人力就已經是短缺的一個狀況那現在如果又遇到緊急狀況我們到底有沒有足夠的這個醫護人力因為當時很多縣市有發出這個"},{"start":10441.944,"end":10450.102,"text":"退職醫務召集令然後召集退職的醫務人員回到現場支援像快篩站、社區篩檢站等等"},{"start":10451.365,"end":10478.79,"text":"那我們在回憶過去的時候在新冠這段期間臨時靠這樣做法徵召來了這個退職的護理人員當時是非常緊急又很臨時所以如果台灣又面臨到這樣一個狀況再發生我們需要這些退職的醫護人員回到這個第一線的時候來做服務我們是不是有整體的規劃好的一個SOP可供來做執行也保障這些退職然後再成為職場的醫護人員"},{"start":10480.49,"end":10505.116,"text":"配合政府做一些減息應備的這些狀況有嗎有 好 包括劉少偉兩個問題回答第一個就是在護理人員的成長今年我們在我們的努力政府的努力之下有62.7變成63所以有增加了3000多左右3500多的護理人員力從去年同期但這中間有1700多是所以又回到63點多了"},{"start":10507.977,"end":10525.255,"text":"第二個就是非常感謝趙偉提醒到這個退職醫護召集令這件事情那當時在疫情期間的確我們召組了護理臺灣隊那當時有一千一萬五百個人報名當然很多其實都是自公性質的,就說我已經在對你服務"},{"start":10528.358,"end":10552.763,"text":"那我願意來投入,譬如說幫你打針、幫你做篩檢等等的那其中其實裡面有25%,真正是25%是沒有職業的啦其他還是有工作,就像我有時候去診所你們為什麼台北市醫生說一副這樣好,你為什麼沒有來召集我,我願意去篩檢所以當時真的醫護都很願意來投入,這是一股很好的力量"},{"start":10553.183,"end":10581.62,"text":"所以為了維護這樣的社會利益本部在我們衛福部有建立一個互助醫平臺這裡面有超過十二萬個護理人員註冊在這裡那我們也給他繼續的教育那也擴大這個平臺所以委員所隨行的這件事情我們是一直繼續在做而且將來應該不管是在平時或者是有特別狀況的時候我覺得都應該啟動這些人力來幫忙"},{"start":10584.023,"end":10607.849,"text":"部長講的就是當時應變這個狀況基本上我們也感受到溫暖也感受到衛福部加了一個召集大家都願意從75%的可能在其他比較不是很嚴重的地方的職業的游人員他也願意過來接受政府的調動來做支持另外25%他是已經沒有在職業中的他也願意再回來這個比例應該有點少75%對25%"},{"start":10612.49,"end":10634.223,"text":"這可能你們要再了解一下啦當然不用在這邊再回答我這個問題那第二個我還是必須講不管這個75%從北地方過來支援還是25%已經沒有支援一段時間的他又要受到政府這樣的趕招又要再投入這樣一個緊急的應變狀況那我們都應該鼓勵跟應該肯定但是相對的他的安全的保障政府也必須要給他"},{"start":10635.633,"end":10641.718,"text":"有訂出這樣的SOP嗎?相關的所有要點嗎?相關的勞動條件的這個保障這個基本勞動的這個保障然後另外一個就是假設他做什麼工作之前我們都確定他有經過教育訓練"},{"start":10656.377,"end":10662.078,"text":"都有還有職業職業你都會先做我先跟委員說一下就是說你剛才提的是這個COVID的時間我們做了一個護理臺灣隊那當時護理人員確實展現了他的社會力那我們希望這件事情可以持續所以我們就在設立一個叫做護理社群平臺"},{"start":10677.822,"end":10693.476,"text":"那事實上護理人員是這樣假設我們的統計是這樣那如果離開醫院兩年後你讓他再回到醫院等於不可能所以不是只是退休的人而是說假設他要離職或退休的人我們怎麼讓他維持"},{"start":10695.342,"end":10701.507,"text":"維持在這個人才庫裡面這是重點你們75%跟25%就被你這樣的趕招來投入、分配、支援各個地區的醫療的系統裡面那他回來的之前他應該要多少時間來做一個培訓或是怎麼樣我們就以任務導向譬如說當時"},{"start":10719.02,"end":10723.482,"text":"要做這個疫苗注射隊那我們就會開始招募各家醫院他的需求是什麼然後我們就會開始辦訓練然後做媒合這個時間那每個人就會填說他的時間是可以的時間是什麼那我們確定他有經過訓練"},{"start":10735.667,"end":10744.81,"text":"然後到哪裡去集合然後到哪裡去做報導所以妳要對我表達就是說沒有一個統一的一個時間啦是不是沒有的時間沒有嘛但是妳的培訓的時間應該是一致啊妳要沒有醫院那個會有時間的落差我很清楚嘛我是在請教妳培訓的時間嘛"},{"start":10753.993,"end":10771.441,"text":"在那個之前我們就啟動那個培訓對啦 時間啦一天、兩天、三天、一天、四天、三天、八天、七天、八天培訓就有看疫苗注射嘛那一個是那個檢查就看他的任務有一個是居家隔離的時候的那個關卡那你可以直接有當跟我的會報告嘛"},{"start":10772.701,"end":10794.449,"text":"那注射的事要培訓多久?那什麼事要幾小時?那什麼又是一天又兩天嗎?市長你就是沒有做啦你有做你就可以直接來回答我了嘛沒有啊,不然你就直接跟我們講1、2、3,舉一三個注射疫苗,做什麼樣?快篩?還是什麼?你再強調一次好不好?"},{"start":10799.731,"end":10824.198,"text":"居家醫療的大概是一天我們一天就集合那那個感控的我們是透過那個視訊視訊的這個教學視訊教學的培訓多久那個視訊教學的培訓大概也是大概一天左右你怎麼都會叫做大概你怎麼都會叫做大概你現在答問我全部都叫大概你會不會叫做大概的造物師的師長"},{"start":10826.703,"end":10832.39,"text":"趙復師 大概 蔡市長醫療 不能讓你這樣回答吧 你的專業我是非常慶祝的嘛 對不對他們這個一段時間 75%已經沒有你這個市長的職業剛剛市長是講6小時"},{"start":10843.911,"end":10872.33,"text":"什麼樣的6小時?不然你要替台北公務請做,是多少個項目6小時?感控的方面6小時那其他的大致上舉兩個就好了,大致上是幾小時?居家醫療的我們是做那個指引的訓練那那個講解也是早上講解然後下午講解但是早上兩個小時下午是兩個小時這樣也是大概嘛所以居家關懷也是大概嘛"},{"start":10877.014,"end":10900.695,"text":"醫療可以講大概醫療的培訓、醫護的培訓可以講大概上午兩節、下午兩節啦不然這樣啦,我印象中平均是一週上班、上課一週培訓是一週,沒有好,沒有代表照護師沒有不代表其他的這個公部門的單位沒有"},{"start":10901.499,"end":10921.536,"text":"你要不要把這些東西弄出來盤整清楚然後做一個統一的規範那相對的對這些願意受到政府趕招回來支援在第一現場的這些醫護人員我們有相關的這些要點作業的要點可以保障他們然後也把這樣的這個草案可以訂出來"},{"start":10922.537,"end":10949.192,"text":"好 我們來處理 我就要求這個而已嘛好 沒問題 之前沒有做啦這個都必須要做 而且很重要就因為之前沒有做 現在我們就落實來做嘛好 一個星期嘛 可以吧好 我們把資料整體起來跟委員報告好 謝謝那第二件事也是這樣 現在除了緊急狀況增加退職的醫護人員能力之外還需要正本期就是正式現在疫病的這樣的一個環境嘛"},{"start":10950.032,"end":10976.82,"text":"然後衛福部會改善護理人力的這個護客從去年3月就已經推動急性一般病患的這個三班的達標獎勵嘛然後就是國立醫院要補儲這個護理人力那三班護病比達標的獎勵我想大家都很清楚嘛第一個階段就是2024的3月到2025的6月嘛其實就是三個月就已經結束了啦那你第二階段什麼時候開始7月開始算7月"},{"start":10980.18,"end":10996.297,"text":"7月就開始第二個階段就是一定要三班達標才獎勵你們第一個階段有做相關的檢討然後調整一些這樣的一個計畫然後包含未達標該如何去做處理然後有達標的當然就獎勵嘛對不對那未達標怎麼處理"},{"start":11001.525,"end":11017.913,"text":"只要三班 白班 小業 大業 中有兩班達標 衛護部及一各院申報住院護理會額外給予3%加成獎勵 對不對沒有錯吧 好 如果三班全數達標加成提高至7% 對不對謝謝衛護部 謝謝部長 謝謝司長衛護達標你怎麼處理衛護達標怎麼處理有達標我們獎勵嘛對 沒達標的勒"},{"start":11030.26,"end":11056,"text":"比如說第一階段目前沒有達標的是27家我沒有問你幾家你直接跟我講怎麼處理你針對我的問題答我好不好那每一家的特殊性都不一樣我沒有在問你特殊性啊我就請教你未達標你們怎麼處理啊你要特殊性要去特殊處理我尊重嘛那你要不要講說他們達標有達到這樣如果有特殊性你要不要另外再加成"},{"start":11057.857,"end":11070.003,"text":"3比7啊 那特殊性要不要3比7比10你才跟我講說你要懲處的是有特殊性啊我們要公平啊 我們要一視同仁啊 該獎勵獎勵啊我們的邏輯很簡單嘛 我們把事情講清楚嘛 不對你也是一個很聰明的人為什麼沒有懲處"},{"start":11082.509,"end":11090.179,"text":"因為現在先鼓勵你現在是跟你這個額外加3%跟這個加成這個三班落全數達標加成提高到7%是針對醫院喔"},{"start":11092.702,"end":11118.503,"text":"對不對?對阿醫院沒有達標有達標你獎勵他嘛對不對阿沒有達標沒事沒有達標就是公告然後去了解他的內容剛剛其實我們也有分析那裡面有不少是地區醫院那地區醫院他們就沒有報八家市地區醫院就沒有把書記報上來嘛沒有把住院信報上來他們怎麼敢 你知道當部長咧他們怎麼敢"},{"start":11120.504,"end":11133.717,"text":"他們怎麼敢不報上來?他們是有多大的膽子不報上來?有報上來,但是沒有...沒有住院病人有些地區醫院應該是有的沒有住院病人,地區醫院"},{"start":11145.183,"end":11153.085,"text":"我問這件問題是這樣,全國372家醫院,311家都有達標,大致上,對不對?好,但有53家,不是你講的,不是剛剛市長講的,29家27家是113年的3月到今年的3月,那這個是4月份現在第一階段已經結束了,你再跟我講113年的3月"},{"start":11174.548,"end":11183.216,"text":"那你現在在跟我補充是114年的試驗你現在是要用哪一個段層來跟我來做這個說明跟委會做說明蔡大愷市長"},{"start":11187.742,"end":11213.926,"text":"三月以前的是27家那四月...董事長我給你看其實很簡單的啦你先不要回答啦你不要急著回答你就讓市長回答嘛你看啦你看嘛你剛剛講的地區醫院嘛對不對紅色的字那叫什麼醫院?附地鋪子醫院那是地區醫院對不對還有育理醫院嘛對不對那區域醫院呢?"},{"start":11215.475,"end":11238.77,"text":"台南便衣沒有啦,前一陣子那兩支你也唸一下喔,那是地道中心,慈濟醫院不是啦,不是啦,紅衣的保安你唸一下,你有沒有聽到雙河醫院沒有啦,那是醫藥中心嘛,對不對,我說區醫院啦區醫院的部立台南醫院對,部立嘛,再來部立台北醫院再來部立苗栗醫院,部立鳳梨醫院,部立彰化醫院,部立南投醫院你們的部立實在很清,通通沒有打標"},{"start":11240.086,"end":11242.209,"text":"請教你還沒答對因為補補到待會補力便宜就對了有辦法三班互併比這會答標"},{"start":11256.346,"end":11262.573,"text":"請蔡大蓋市長再說明一下 部長你休息一下蔡大蓋市長要提供的是113年未達標的然後他現在講的又再補充114年未達標的 在4月前"},{"start":11276.441,"end":11301.129,"text":"報告委員因為我們大部分的醫院都在偏鄉離島然後我們為了臺南在偏鄉離島台北在偏鄉離島彰化在偏鄉離島我們為了不要讓你要不要修正你剛剛講的偏鄉離島這幾句話因為你們衛島三幫互併比的醫院我剛剛列的這幾家不利醫院它不是偏鄉離島的醫院"},{"start":11303.588,"end":11321.863,"text":"這幾家醫院你要不要先修正你剛剛對我回應的第一句話我們再有辦法統一下去不然就請你可以回到你的座位上因為我也沒有邀請你上來有幾個原因第一個原因你要不要先修正你剛剛講的第一句話不修正請你回到你的座位下修正"},{"start":11322.863,"end":11345.209,"text":"另外是因為我們為了怕急著擁塞比如說台北醫院在北部有很多醫學中心他們可能為了護病比的關係可能有關床那我們不要造成人球事件所以其實他們的床是沒有關完全沒有關就維持開放所以他們會讓護理人員有很多很好的福利所以那些護理人員願意撐著讓"},{"start":11348.891,"end":11368.081,"text":"讓民眾享受比較好的醫療而不是用關床來解決這個護病比的問題我沒有問你到後面這個問題你只要這麼講你不關床你就是把人力補足就這樣而已我們會努力補足人力我現在要給部長看的是部長醫護會還是照護師他們可以幫你講到什麼程度幫你們說明到什麼程度其實都很困難"},{"start":11378.752,"end":11401.361,"text":"今天三班護兵比魏達標不立院這麼多家這個數字顯示出來,紅字就是不及格嘛難看不好看所以我請長官講說底下的幕僚單位到底在做什麼事情請部長要小心啦我們會去加油你當然要加油,你自己加油也不夠你又加加酒吧也不夠這不是這樣嘛"},{"start":11408.354,"end":11418.839,"text":"對 人人百人三百幾斤都要到達標提供這個獎勵的加乘對醫院喔3% 7%那我才會請教你啊 那未達標你怎麼處理啊不管什麼原因啦 你怎麼處理嘛有獎就有乘啊很簡單的邏輯問題嘛柏堯 請你輸課好不好一禮拜一禮拜檢討報告然後去做修正嘛 好不好最好齁 最好台灣那個"},{"start":11436.932,"end":11458.285,"text":"照顧室強調這筆款像是專管專用必須用於護理人員然後針對不同班設計留任方案醫院需要在院內公開分配方式並向護理人員說明清楚對不對沒有錯嘛臺灣護理產業公會跟你講說你不要這樣做我們要不要把獎勵金直接報給病人由醫院統籌運用政府不干預喔"},{"start":11463.24,"end":11481.617,"text":"我們獎勵金有兩類我當然知道獎勵金有兩類啊我再跟你講哪一類你很清楚啊你不要再跳來跳去啊因為每一家醫院他拿到的獎勵金都不一樣所以這個是我們的規範每一家醫院拿到的獎勵金當然不一樣啊但是你是招募師你卻有同一個規範啊"},{"start":11483.098,"end":11502.905,"text":"有規範啊沒有規範你規範怎麼可以說你不管我們沒有說不管啊你怎麼管我們是公告啊然後我們有調查他們會回覆啊公告完之後他違反咧他違反你相關的公告規定你怎麼處理啊你怎麼處理啊就收回啊就收回啊怎麼收回你到目前為止收回幾筆為照你們公告的規範去執行你到目前為止你收回幾筆"},{"start":11511.749,"end":11514.811,"text":"你收回幾筆,你跟委員說明,你收回幾筆你連大概收回一筆都沒有啦你好有好有意思在這邊講大放厥詞我尊重你們,你們把這些委員當成在委員會的意思在呼嚨亂七八糟到幾點"},{"start":11545.197,"end":11573.745,"text":"護理人員一直依賴的,一直對於期待的,是非常高尤其對部長,不然你怎麼對台南人愛所以對培養管理,對護理人員照顧,你都比什麼更清楚你的制度有問題,獎勵沒有人去挑戰你但是為達標,你的部理醫院比例這麼高然後你自己講這麼清楚,專管專用今天醫院,你給了他的獎勵,他沒有專管專用"},{"start":11575.168,"end":11581.631,"text":"你沒有任何的方式可以做處理你還好意思在這個委員會跟我講說收回你收回哪一筆的啊報告委員我們一定堅決來執行你這個委員是予以賠償你做的這個問題這案子繼續在出現對你有好補是好事嘛對你有好補要帶領全國的醫護人員在每一個"},{"start":11602.267,"end":11625.231,"text":"他盡心盡責 負責職業的場所這是一件好事嗎絕對不好嘛 對不對那我們政策上有一些問題政策上有一些問題我們就該修啊 該面對啊你沒有做到沒有做到事情 你怎麼好意思在公開在這邊講然後問題 你一直用偏鄉醫療來搪塞我你當初今天這個委員會嗎"},{"start":11630.871,"end":11645.988,"text":"下禮拜看蘇貞昊要不要排考察啦全部的不理會我們全部走一次啦好 施委員我們會努力 謝謝這個我要補充一下就是事實上這個護理獎勵金到每一個人是到戶頭上"},{"start":11647.634,"end":11668.698,"text":"所以那個都是可以電腦交出來每一筆都會到護理人員的帳號幾乎所有都是這樣那有沒有違規的那當然要查那這個我們再來加油啦好謝謝劉兆偉謝謝那我們接續請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席我們請部長"},{"start":11682.133,"end":11702.964,"text":"委員好部長好 部長我先就這一次可能這個美國對等關稅的議題那基層很多人會擔心未來這個藥品的這個價格是不是會上漲或者是會有缺藥的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說衛福部針對這一部分你們有做什麼樣的因應"},{"start":11704.045,"end":11730.071,"text":"好 我想國際的現在關稅的變化我們必須要延至擬代那在不管是藥品或醫材在價格方面那當然有可能因為營養藥的提升所以會增加提高它的價錢所以這個時候我們當然相對的不管是在健保的體制裡面我們都會根據廠商進口的成本來提高它的一個給付"},{"start":11732.071,"end":11757.779,"text":"所以你們有這樣因應的一個對策這個都已經成立這個對策會密切來注意監測那第二個我們也要徹底來改善我們藥品的公用韌性包括我們支持新藥在地製造鼓勵國產學民要及早進入市場等等的這樣的一個系列那個部分這幾個策略我們都已經設立在那一邊來應應這樣的一個變局"},{"start":11760.12,"end":11772.614,"text":"好 那我希望就是說因應這個美國的對等關稅的這個議題一旦開始實施或發生之後衛福部能夠及時來反應不要因為這個關稅的議題影響到我們的藥"},{"start":11775.557,"end":11789.984,"text":"或者是讓這個基層需要用藥的這個部分可能會有一個短缺我們希望說真的要戒慎恐懼我這個真的是要事先提醒部長還有署長另外我想請教"},{"start":11791.405,"end":11801.56,"text":"部長在前陣子在基層我們看到就是說集中南韓那尤其是兒科的部分我以彰化為例彰化兒科這個9點過後的這個急診"},{"start":11807.668,"end":11836.417,"text":"就只剩下張基因為張基他有兒童醫院那其他的這個醫院他們都沒有九點過後就沒有這個兒科的一個急診那不論是兒科或者是急重男寒的這個部分其實我擔心的就是說可能未來會比較集中在都市那偏鄉的部分可能所有的醫師可能不太願意到偏鄉以目前我們看到"},{"start":11837.457,"end":11857.751,"text":"彰化的竹塘、方院、大城、二林這幾個鄉鎮所有的診所的醫師年紀都已經偏大了可能都七八十歲了那未來也許這些醫師不再看診之後這些鄉鎮可能就沒有醫師"},{"start":11859.092,"end":11875.462,"text":"就沒有醫師我覺得這是很嚴重的一個問題那甚至我看到就是說我們那個重點科別培育的這個公費醫師我不知道說為什麼衛福部好像針對這一部分有做一些調整是不是"},{"start":11876.533,"end":11901.822,"text":"工會醫師因為他的計畫到今年就結束了那結束之後呢就沒有延續沒有延續那沒有延續的話剛我講的偏鄉也許未來這些這個年紀比較偏大這些資深的醫師退休之後再看診之後可能就剩下衛生所的醫師那衛生所的醫師這些醫師他未來"},{"start":11903.24,"end":11930.428,"text":"也許會很難招聘喔這些公費的醫師這些衛生所的醫師他也許也不想到偏鄉喔所以我覺得說如果你們把這個重點科別培育的公費醫師到今年結束你們就這樣子結束之後未來你的公費醫師或者是偏鄉的醫師你要找醫師我覺得應該都會非常的困難所以我希望部長針對這部分你們應該要好好的去思考"},{"start":11931.067,"end":11952.502,"text":"是的 謝謝委員 我們台灣現在的醫事人力是不換寡 是換不均是 所以全部都集中在 服醫措施到偏鄉那當然現在目前的在地養成的還是有在地啦 那比較老一點因為公會醫師其實訓練以後 他服務以後基本上就"},{"start":11953.843,"end":11978.039,"text":"大概都會離開那個服務的地方所以部長我今天要講的在地養成的應該是比較需要關注那部長你講的在地養成那我今天要講的就是說如果你把這個重點科別培育的公費醫師這個時間到今年為止嘛那你後面你不再有這樣的一個計畫那未來我覺得說這個偏鄉的醫師或這個比較偏鄉的衛生所的醫師我覺得你都會很難去"},{"start":11984.604,"end":11999.176,"text":"剛開始最後一屆是醫學生所以後面延年不絕至少有十年是後面還有醫師的可是部長你不擔心未來這些醫師就集中在都市嗎"},{"start":12000.337,"end":12028.204,"text":"當然我們現在譬如說這幾年的公費生為什麼大家比較有意見有些學生都比較有意見因為他要服務比以前多啦要到10年那你今年既然你是一個公費醫師的話那你就知道就是說我就是要綁定服務幾年嘛對現在就是這樣子嘛目前這幾年都是綁定10年如果你不願意的話那你就不要投入公費醫師嘛對不對那所以我覺得部長我覺得這個制度"},{"start":12029.264,"end":12052.015,"text":"我認為應該要讓他繼續 要不然你以後偏鄉的醫師我覺得你應該是很難找到因為公會醫師也算是在醫師人力 所以可能會增加到醫學生的名額這個部分我們也會謹慎來處理 應該更重要的是鼓勵那個更多的人 例如集中症 到偏鄉"},{"start":12052.944,"end":12057.909,"text":"當然你願意到偏鄉你要有誘因啊如果今天你看到人家到偏鄉誘因公衛醫師是其中之一而已啦有更多的像我以前在台大當完總醫師我也到幾乎沒有醫師的金山鄉那你在那邊待幾年我在那邊待兩年待兩年以後"},{"start":12076.847,"end":12080.931,"text":"現在30年後面都是有總醫師在那邊當主任部長我今天要跟你講的所以看制度的問題我就覺得醫學中心也有責任去對偏鄉地區的醫療的人力"},{"start":12095.925,"end":12108.89,"text":"這個意思中平線的六大任務裡面也是有提到這個部分那我們給他相對的一個幫忙支持很多大醫院是願意去照顧偏鄉這樣也是一個制度啦當然我們可以多元化來討論"},{"start":12110.55,"end":12136.693,"text":"部長我今天想要特別的提醒你因為我看到我們彰化地區有很多比較偏遠的鄉鎮那真的醫師年紀都偏大那偏大之後未來這些這個醫師不再看診之後這些鄉鎮就沒有沒有牙醫診所沒有一般的那個診所是完全都沒有現在這個鄉鎮可能就只有一家兩家甚至有的之前"},{"start":12137.273,"end":12159.432,"text":"在前幾年是連一間那個牙科醫師牙科診所完全都沒有所以如果說你今天要有這樣的一個重點培育的公費制度的話我認為應該是要有一些誘因而且如果你今天要投入公費醫師的話那你就知道說這個時間你可能在這個地方你可能要服務5年10年甚至15年那"},{"start":12161.093,"end":12179.809,"text":"當然他願意再偏鄉的話我們要給他更好的一個薪資更好的福利我覺得這應該也是我們的重點要不然你看到現在很多的醫院護理人員大家覺得說護理人員為什麼都不想投入即使他今天讀了護理科系可是他就不願意投入這個當護理師為什麼"},{"start":12183.032,"end":12206.921,"text":"因為他覺得太辛苦也許薪資不是他理想的他想要再找其他的工作所以我覺得說部長今天應該要去好好的思考如果今天偏鄉的醫師未來五年十年後不再有人在那邊服務的話我覺得這個是一個國家非常重大的一個危機那如果你今天原本有的這樣的一個重點培育的計畫如果可以繼續延續的話"},{"start":12209.022,"end":12224.927,"text":"這個醫師他願意投入偏鄉那你應該就要有更豐厚的這個福利來支撐讓他願意到偏鄉去服務所以部長我在這邊要特別提醒你這個制度我覺得你應該要好好的再去思考好 我們再來演繹"},{"start":12226.894,"end":12248.621,"text":"再來演繹因為這個要注意到是不是會增加因為他那個公會醫師沒有算在醫學生的容額裡面所以這個醫學界也會有意見不是啦請三個意外啦是啦 保證我現在要跟你說的好多醫生如果願意投入偏鄉的話那當然是OK的我們在鼓勵我們在鼓勵沒有問題啊今天就是沒有人要去嘛今天如果說大家都很想要去"},{"start":12253.402,"end":12276.365,"text":"那當然這個就沒問題啊那今天是重點你重點急送難喊或者是偏鄉就沒人要去啊所以你就是要另外一套制度來支撐嘛那再來就是說你要有更更好的誘因更大的誘因讓他想要到偏鄉去服務啦一定一定我這是一家宇宙新廠因為我曾經常常下鄉過我很清楚"},{"start":12277.266,"end":12299.789,"text":"那個我跑過無數個偏鄉的一個醫療服務我很清楚必須要有更多的因為包括去那邊的都還是連剛好小孩子都很小他們其實是很難離開太原所以怎麼樣做好各方面的處理以及保障他回來可以當醫院的主治醫師或者是怎麼樣這有很多的方式就可以讓我們的年輕的醫師願意去服務"},{"start":12301.05,"end":12323.404,"text":"所以我好那這個部分我們會來整體來研議真的我要特別提醒部長齊眾南韓那兒科的部分確實現在的醫師真的也很難找所以真的保定一部分你真的要再去思考好好的思考未來如果真的找不到偏鄉的醫師那怎麼辦齊眾跟偏鄉是我們要努力的重點謝謝委員"},{"start":12326.549,"end":12329.851,"text":"主席麻煩邱部長委員好部長晚安晚安"},{"start":12360.893,"end":12377.24,"text":"上禮拜一的那個丹納斯颱風造成中南部很嚴重的災情 台電人員在這週都還在搶救那到7月12號就上週六的中午為止急救的那個責任醫院收治的緊急傷病患總計大概713人"},{"start":12378.741,"end":12396.653,"text":"突顯在緊急天災的時候維持醫療的量能的重要性可是有媒體報導台風期間有很多中部的醫院事實上是縮減服務有的甚至停止門診這情形在過去不太明顯不過本席認為為了維護醫療人員的安全的話"},{"start":12397.813,"end":12423.027,"text":"臺豐天醫院縮減服務大概是情有可願可是有一屆人是懷疑今年的特例跟剛上路的醫院個別總額的試辦計畫是有關的所以對醫院來說恐怕會擔心就診的人數超過總額那導致點數打折所以臺豐天就乾脆就停診了那所以想問部長說如果這是事實的話那就是一個很嚴重的警訊所以請"},{"start":12427.455,"end":12445.029,"text":"部長針對媒體提出來的疑問做回應好 謝謝委員的垂醒跟關心我們在台風天或者一般時候的一個醫療的運作那像張基總院陳木寬院長所提的要信奉對病人的承諾我想所有的醫院的院長是"},{"start":12445.689,"end":12470.385,"text":"都是懷抱有這樣的情懷所以不會受到幾乎是不會因為颱風天而是很故意就除了說向南部就沒水沒電那當然是沒辦法反而我們現在都要去補助他那中部這個我跟委員報告一下我們7月1號到15號也就是在風災這段期間中區分歧的"},{"start":12471.506,"end":12497.801,"text":"健保IC卡上傳的件數還比去年113人成長11.5%表示他們的看診並沒有受到風災的影響所以這個我相信中部的醫院應該是不至於因為可能停班你如果停班讓你去外面來就變成加班那可能有些"},{"start":12498.982,"end":12504.125,"text":"現在颱風天上班也不好現在基層的醫護也是非常重視這個醫院也很重視安全所以現在都以颱風天上班的規定所以我們在安全的經營之下"},{"start":12517.185,"end":12529.765,"text":"其實便宜也都只能在運作啦除了它真的被因為台灣現在風險也比較高隨時又有可能短時間內出現我們的大量傷患健保支付制度如果沒有妥善規劃的話影響到緊急狀況的"},{"start":12532.89,"end":12550.206,"text":"醫療量能的話這是民眾很擔心的事情請民眾安心我們的各位醫院總和現在運轉得很好而且也沒有發生人球的事件在此之前醫院個別總和制在南區就已經試辦大概實施了三年到今年一月中"},{"start":12550.986,"end":12566.621,"text":"1月在中区开始实施全国最晚实施的是台北区从今年的4月1号开始所以请问部长台北区最晚实施的原因是不是因为医学中心比别的地区多那需要更多的时间沟通是因为这个原因吗"},{"start":12567.446,"end":12594.132,"text":"是因為台北區的文化因為我在台北西海很久他們都覺得他們是要接受很嚴重的病人不能沒有後路了啦所以比較大的醫院包括台大龍總他會覺得說他們有先天的使命所以他們很擔心這樣的一個是不是影響到他們照顧病人結果我們溝通以後他們也發現說如果讓我們的這樣一個一定的"},{"start":12595.673,"end":12624.615,"text":"總而之下也根本也有一些剛性需求的話也不受影響需要的急重症那個都不受影響另外也可以把一些比較輕症的病人能夠盡量在分級醫療的理念之下放給那個比較屬於中小型或地區的醫院這樣反而形成一個良好的一個分級醫療而且有一點點財務的控制財務控制是其實不只醫院啦也是區域都在管那是不是我們也跟他"},{"start":12625.376,"end":12652.828,"text":"跟他溝通就是未來的方向也要讓民眾健康促進讓整個所有的健保也要朝向讓民眾更健康那這樣的話就變成一個分級醫療以此做對人民健康最好的一個模式那以到目前來講北區也得大家應做得相當好那用醫院個別種而治來控制健保經費支出這當然直接影響到醫院門診檢查手術甚至急救"},{"start":12653.608,"end":12673.406,"text":"等可以收治的病人數量我們擔心醫院為了健保點數不要超過總額發生拒收重症病患的狀況所以也要請教部長說那這樣子要怎麼去避免這種狀況發生好 謝謝委員我是不是請站拍手署長剪調的跟大家報告一下"},{"start":12673.866,"end":12694.194,"text":"跟委員報告從我們的統計來看我們在疫情前國人就醫的次數每年是15次在所有的OECD國家是非常非常的高那麼到了疫後我們從去年的數字又再往上升已經逼近17次了所以這中間一定可以有管理的地方所以我們希望透過這個醫院的個別總額來強化這個分級醫療"},{"start":12697.435,"end":12719.038,"text":"那麼對於慢性病的管理也好跟病人的就醫能夠有適當的一些好的管理措施那也可以讓國人得到照顧所以急重症的部分我們都是在個別總和裡面都是保障在中區的話他們是沒有限制只要你是急重症的他都是保障成長所以不會有斷頭的情形"},{"start":12720.279,"end":12735.035,"text":"可是中區當然我覺得目前看起來不是太我寧願已經實施三年可是民眾普遍相信台北的醫院又多又好所以外縣市的急重症的病患經常都會到台北區的那個教學"},{"start":12736.116,"end":12754.552,"text":"醫學中心來所以從圖表上可以看到是說台北區的健保點子從前年到去年增加的幅度是非常明顯的可是病人總不能都擠到台北區所以應該是就近就醫才比較好所以如果說要盡可能讓他們就近就醫的話您的對策是什麼"},{"start":12755.132,"end":12770.646,"text":"跟委員報告我們都有在監測流入跟流出所以從這幾年這幾個我們按季按月都在監測這個台北區的流入情形並沒有增加整個比例是沒有增加那當然各地區的醫院的數量"},{"start":12771.707,"end":12792.974,"text":"還有這個病床數確實也有變動所以像北區或台北區北區這幾年的醫院的加速是增加病床數也增加那當然他就會影響到這個分佈的情形所以並沒有讓台北區的就醫人數有明顯的增加所以我覺得後期可以觀察因為接下來台北也要執行"},{"start":12795.374,"end":12809.998,"text":"中的榮總因二零二五年第一季的健保申報的點數就超出額度那遭健保署核三了三億元那另外張基也是光總院就核三掉一點二億元這凸顯醫院在個別總額"},{"start":12812.359,"end":12830.702,"text":"好的上邊來看的話馬上就會面對到一些困境那健保署的說法呢事實上是健保總額執行已經行之有年的話那現行的個別醫院的總額制的是南區實施的做法那南區的經驗現在是成功的那推行到全國"},{"start":12831.963,"end":12859.153,"text":"我剛剛講台北市現在4月1號執行的話那後邊到底會怎麼樣不太確定因為南區只有兩家醫學中心而且健保點子都是比較高的那一樣的制度在台北區可能會不會面對到很多問題所以想問說對醫院來說要控制健保總額要避免虧損除了要減少病患以外就是從醫護人員的薪水下手這是我們最擔心的衛福部有沒有應對的措施去解決這種可能出現的"},{"start":12860.053,"end":12879.015,"text":"醫護減薪然後不賬薪或是預缺不補的問題跟委員報告我們第一劑今年的第一劑跟去年的第一劑相比所有的醫院的點值都是大幅的提升以台北區為例去年醫院的點值在沒有斷頭之前那麼大概不到0.9"},{"start":12880.316,"end":12907.156,"text":"那今年呢已經是0.93所以比去年都是提升的那醫院的營收也都是成長的那但是呢相對的醫院的病床的規模並沒有明顯的增加啦在台北區而言所以我們現在正在積極的希望呢醫院把這個增加的這個收入呢那麼能夠轉化成在人員的加薪上面我們在做這個努力"},{"start":12907.916,"end":12933.574,"text":"所以有再去促成這件事嗎因為我們最擔心的就是這個在這個總額被限制的制度裡面門診量跟手術量大的醫生聽起來也是會不會相對被變相被處罰因為事情卻做得越多跟報酬卻無法增加那要怎麼去避免這種狀況根文報告我們都有相關的這監測那麼我剛剛也提到有一些的門診的次數確實可以減少那麼醫療人員的"},{"start":12938.617,"end":12962.204,"text":"這個過勞情形其實也是蠻重的所以我們希望透過好的管理也讓這個醫護人員減壓啦那至於是剛性的需求這個在我們的總額裡面都是保障的而且在明年在談總額成長的時候個別醫院總額成長的時候也會看他的人力的投入情形有沒有增加薪資的這個組長我剛才也提到南區"},{"start":12963.224,"end":12988.033,"text":"事實上你覺得是成功經驗可是媒體有報導說在最早開始用這個制度的時候南區就已經開始有部分醫院用降薪限制醫生門診量跟手術量還有全力鼓吹病患自費等等的方式去控制不讓醫療點數超過每劑的總額所以想問說為了避免無效醫療當然我們覺得浪費資源或過度控制手術量門診量跟檢查量"},{"start":12989.201,"end":12999.969,"text":"是需要的 必要的一個措施在 可是如果醫院為了省錢 讓手術量 門診量跟檢查量下降 就會傷害當地區的醫療量能這個問題你們要怎麼去應對"},{"start":13001.944,"end":13022.691,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個我們南區先實施之後高屏區然後北區就是陸陸續續大家還跟進也就是大家互相在學習一個制度剛上路的時候難免有需要調整的地方但是經過南區先行這幾年之後那麼發現了他其實大家都"},{"start":13023.331,"end":13048.961,"text":"都很滿意啦所以才持續擴大到其他的各區以現在第一劑為例南區的點值超過1.1塊錢了那麼高屏區也是差不多是0.99啦所以靠近這個1啦所以相對於這個沒有實施之前來講呢那麼其實這個對醫院的營收更穩定那他更能夠做比較中長期的規劃"},{"start":13050.472,"end":13065.747,"text":"好 疏解醫院門診壓力的解方就是弱勢分級醫療 所以為了控制總額呢 各醫院可能把重症的病人轉出去 重症病人呢事實上是不會往送去診所 而是到各大醫院"},{"start":13066.628,"end":13085.921,"text":"的那個診間去轉診踢來踢去最後把被送到不能再將病人轉出去的部立醫院或者醫學中心結果導致呢部立醫院跟醫學中心負擔更大醫護工作量更大所以部長想問說你們衛福怎麼去因應病人如果被當人球轉來轉去的問題"},{"start":13088.443,"end":13112.201,"text":"這個我們都有監測的指標在看就是病人的轉出轉入在我們的健保系統裡面都看得非常的清楚從哪邊轉來的比例有多少這個都很清楚的指標都在而且我們剛剛也提到說在急重症的部分它是剛性需求是被保障成長的那相對的呢你這個轉診的不當轉診呢那我們就會把你調降成為用"},{"start":13112.941,"end":13134.747,"text":"不保障點值的方式去處理所以對醫院我們也會有一些處罰的措施不過署長寫請教一下以南區為例在個別總額以下過去三年大醫院的輕症病轉回地區醫院或診所的成效怎麼樣因為你剛剛講說我不知道你有沒有掌握這個成效"},{"start":13136.195,"end":13163.637,"text":"就是轉診的部分那個南區的轉診成效都是蠻好的沒有什麼問題我們再提供詳細的數字給再麻煩最後想問因為我覺得不管天災或平時台灣醫療體系的需求越來越大政府有餘裕應該是投入社會福利或醫療體系而不是普發現金這是我的看法所以請問部長因為的確我們現在隨著需求越大的時候"},{"start":13164.858,"end":13176.108,"text":"那大家很遺憾的是最近立法院通過的普發現金要把兩千三百五十億發出去而不是投入我們關心的社會福利或是醫療體系對此部長有什麼看法"},{"start":13176.83,"end":13197.061,"text":"我想醫療體系跟社福它是一個長久的一個規劃所以如果國家有財富比較盈餘的時候應該把醫療的符合來醫療的需求跟社福的需求這應該是會比較能夠一本多利能夠有時候要看它的"},{"start":13198.222,"end":13206.738,"text":"效力也許能夠創造人民更多的健康跟幸福會創造更多的健康跟幸福"},{"start":13208.621,"end":13224.955,"text":"最後就請我們的衛福部應該要確保我們的醫療量能然後輕重症的病患都能夠受到妥善照顧還有就要保障醫護人員的一個權益還有落實醫療分級以上謝謝謝謝林委員 謝謝部長 署長來 接下來我們請徐宇臻委員質詢"},{"start":13236.7,"end":13239.612,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請衛福部邱部長還有勞動部理事長"},{"start":13244.879,"end":13269.558,"text":"委員好還有次長好利用這個機會跟部長說明一下普發現金是利用超徵的稅收還稅於民所以並不會排擠到所謂的衛福跟社會這個社會福利方面的支出所以我想剛剛這個部分我必須要在這邊說明一下然後另外想請教一下就是從7月7號的丹納斯颱風侵襲全台造成"},{"start":13270.278,"end":13290.756,"text":"雲林台南嘉義縣市大概有超過百萬戶的用電停電那雖然台電有派出大量的人力附電真的也非常的辛苦但是因為過了11天目前還是最新的數據是還有500多戶還沒附電那我先請教一下李次長如果有政府的高層"},{"start":13291.758,"end":13307.36,"text":"期許導致員工有效有搶休的一個時效跟壓力造成台電員工超時跟過勞或是防護的措施不夠完善因而發生意外這個責任誰要來負責是台電公司還是政府高層"},{"start":13308.968,"end":13326.722,"text":"跟委員說明台電公司這一次他們都有依照勞基法32條還有40條一規定跟地方政府勞工局來做那個加班計畫的報備然後來備查所以這個在勞基法的法規上是完全合法的"},{"start":13327.262,"end":13346.162,"text":"那請問一下就是目前也有因為很多台電的員工包括工會都有提出來他們有過勞的相關問題那這個部分就是當然也有一位理性員工目前還在急救當中那意外發生了之後請問是要怎麼釐清責任勞動部會不會開始進行調查"},{"start":13347.583,"end":13361.148,"text":"我們已經依照相關職安法的規定開始進行調查了是嗎先請他們停工然後進行調查請他們停工然後進行調查所以是開始調查了沒已經在進行"},{"start":13363.786,"end":13382.222,"text":"可能要請這個會後是不是請這個這個我們調查完備之後是不是可以送交本委員會還有本席這邊來瞭解狀況那我剛為什麼要說這樣呢是因為7月9號的時候卓榮泰院長前往嘉義縣視察停電然後要拼9日夜間復電7月11號賴清德總統郭智輝部長前往台南市視察台電"},{"start":13387.406,"end":13412.159,"text":"搶修的狀況 他們現場說天黑前要全部送電你認為台電會不會有負電的壓力我想負電是全民全社會的共同期待那台電員工也非常努力在幫助這些地區的民眾台電非常的用心我們知道但是如果高層施壓的話你覺得會不會有這樣子的一個負電的壓力"},{"start":13413.547,"end":13432.72,"text":"我想這個壓力應該是台電的員工他們從上到下都攜帶趕快幫民眾來復電他們本身在總統院長之前就非常努力了市長你不要因為是卓榮泰院長跟賴清德總統或部長你就不敢說真話事實上一定會有壓力的我剛剛是在表達我真心的話"},{"start":13433.22,"end":13461.337,"text":"是我也是表達我真心的話我覺得今天總統這個院長都說什麼這個總統在11號說天黑前全部要送電你覺得基層會不會有壓力一定會有所以在這個部分我想台電面對這個要加速附電的壓力所以導致有員工這個發生病危的這個事故然後像李姓員工他的爸爸就指出搶修的時候還要才繼續通電"},{"start":13463.098,"end":13486.317,"text":"所以沒有在最安全的狀況之下造成這樣一個憾事所以勞動部有沒有針對這個部分提出調查對 剛已經跟委員說明我們已經正在調查中就是也是針對這個案子就對了好 那是針對這個部分可能希望就是能盡快的釐清這樣的事故那另外請教部長就是針對這一次的颱風我們剛剛提到就還有到現在11天還有500多戶還沒有復點"},{"start":13488.499,"end":13507.788,"text":"所以很多重症的病患會依賴呼吸器抽痰器這些重症病患所以在台南就有發生了兩起呼吸器病患因為停電無法使用設備而宣告不治的案例請問一下部長就是當前的災害應變的體系是不是有把這個仰賴電力維生的人納入核心保護的對象"},{"start":13508.824,"end":13532.7,"text":"是的我們對於在災難產生的時候我們就會動員六區的一個緊急應變中心來做好醫療的一個整備同時我們會被比較可能可能會受災的區域他們的弱勢團體來希望移動那像產婦洗腎的這些都是在我們的衛生局一定要把它移了那請問這個有照冊嗎"},{"start":13536.83,"end":13562.882,"text":"就是你是不是也可以先建立一個高風險的醫療戶的名冊而不是被動的說當發生事情的時候某些地方可以做這樣的事情可是事實上你都可以先列冊然後針對這些不管是小呼吸器或這個抽痰器他們需要的這些用戶他們就可以馬上先提供他們的這樣的援助不要讓電力中斷我想衛生局他其實都應該是算逼"},{"start":13563.562,"end":13571.691,"text":"比中央更清楚所以我們都會跟衛生局來討論那有沒有列冊呢就我所知目前是沒有可能我們現在的重點是比較"},{"start":13574.616,"end":13596.533,"text":"比較適合於偏鄉的一個孕婦洗腎的啦那至於說在家裡居家照顧的這個部分我想我們未來因為像這次停電已經11天了所以說針對這樣子在家裡需要呼吸器的這些病人他本來不需要因為這樣子一個颱風就真的命喪黃泉而是真正如果我們"},{"start":13597.293,"end":13620.332,"text":"盡快的附墊給他有幾個這個所謂的高風險的醫療戶的部分我們盡快的附墊給他就可能不會發生這樣的憾事包委員醫院本身都有發電機是沒有不是我是指在家的那現在在家裡的就是這樣的一個轉介燈這個我們會來檢討對台中的時候是不是可以把我們這方面的這個利率我們會把這個謝謝委員的關心我們這個將來會列為好那請部長這個部分希望能夠真正的來落實好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13627.536,"end":13632.641,"text":"好 謝謝許委員 謝謝部長那繼續我們請喜新委員質詢好 謝謝主席 本席有請邱部長"},{"start":13650.72,"end":13678.796,"text":"委員好邱部長好辛苦了我們今天要特別來跟您談有關台美關稅談判所以台灣食品安全的相關影響首先我想國人非常非常關心的就是有關我們在這一次的台美關稅談判中部長可不可以明確的來跟我們國人承諾"},{"start":13679.736,"end":13697.853,"text":"在整個的談判中我們不會放寬有關美豬或美牛含瘦肉精萊克多巴胺的標準不會放寬標準以及標示義務可不可以明確的來跟我們國人承諾我想我們"},{"start":13701.751,"end":13726.891,"text":"報告委員因為這個食安這個是絕對是我們衛福部要堅守的那食安的一個根據是在哪裡就是在一個科學的分析科學的根據還有依照國際的規範所以這個部分這是我們衛福部在堅守的那自己在談台美關稅的一個談判是不是有去接觸到這個部分談得怎麼樣因為他還在談"},{"start":13728.212,"end":13753.386,"text":"但是我們應該有我們的立場我相信我們談的成員一定很清楚一定很清楚我們跟我們衛福部一樣的一個立場你們有溝通過嗎?您跟我們代表談判的談判官代表台灣的你們有溝通過這塊嗎?應該是非常了解到我們國人的需求當然也要看看國家的發展"},{"start":13755.727,"end":13772.796,"text":"國人的需求 食安的堅持因為他們很辛苦在堅持這幾個原則我覺得全國的民眾應該要支持這些談判的人在這幾個原則之下真的費盡了老金從國家的立場和食安的立場"},{"start":13773.857,"end":13799.192,"text":"那個因為我時間也有限我知道您會特別提這個國際標準就是國際還有科學數據那首先第一個您剛剛提到的我們要支持我們代表國家我們大家全國一體嘛那我們認同但是整個台美談判過程你看我們台積電先走了一步然後接著我們整個的關稅"},{"start":13800.673,"end":13816.249,"text":"稅率會多少目前還沒公布但是我們民眾最基本最卑微的要求就是我們不能賠償去食安我們人民的健康還是最基本的所以您既然談到這個科學數據那我想世界各國"},{"start":13817.31,"end":13830.832,"text":"我們有關這個瘦肉精萊克多巴胺的標準大部分都是還是在0.01ppm以下所以這一次的談判我們希望我們整個的標準不要放寬您可不可以具體承諾"},{"start":13833.078,"end":13838.001,"text":"有關於這個訂定的標準的部分對於全世界對於收入金的和國際的規範的確如您所言會有一些些的差異的存在"},{"start":13850.487,"end":13863.739,"text":"那但是不管是差異在哪裡都我們會回歸到我們的食品安全風險分析科學的基礎我們必須要針對我們的飲食對嘛 我們目前是0.01ppm 肌肉的部分然後內臟是0.04嘛"},{"start":13866.101,"end":13887.626,"text":"我的意思就是說經過這一次的台美關稅的談判我們不要放寬不可以再放寬了可以嗎其實我是希望部長承諾因為部長你都是你去開行政院會還有跟我們包括我們可能代表的副院長所以我們還是希望衛福部的立場就是要堅守"},{"start":13889.367,"end":13915.26,"text":"對 針對這部分的話我特別提一下因為的確如院長 如部長剛才提到的因為談判的過程中在最後的 應該是在最後抽傷的階段那你看到新聞其實有三次的實體的談也有在媒體上其實有一部分的資訊大家因為它本身是所謂原始的國家所謂的National Trade貿易的評估美國所以公開的有很多的議題"},{"start":13916.28,"end":13932.795,"text":"那這個議題裡面我們針對這個談判的過程呢其實是不是在這邊我們要的是部長其實您的立場也讓我們民眾安心嘛我們要堅持標準不放寬還有我們的標示也不可以放寬"},{"start":13934.495,"end":13957.542,"text":"就是有關國內標示的義務也不要放寬還是跟委員報告我們食安一定是按照我們國委的習慣還有科學的分析還有一定是符合安全的規範這個是一定要堅持的然後再來因為台灣人跟美國人的飲食習慣不一樣他們不吃內臟我們台灣人很多人吃內臟所以"},{"start":13959.864,"end":13968.781,"text":"內臟又是殘存量特高的所以我還要特別強調因為這些民眾的期待我們希望衛福部替民眾把關"},{"start":13970.538,"end":13996.584,"text":"是的我們一定替民眾在食安的一個把關所以我們希望不知道也許聽說是8月1號整個公布的時候我們希望是不要讓民眾失望最後最後我們一定會保障民眾的食安健康好謝謝部長我們替民眾把關我們也全力挺您好那最後我想用一點點的時間就是近期國內的缺藥問題頻傳"},{"start":13998.624,"end":14024.372,"text":"那新補充錠長期缺貨短效型的胰島素供應也告急民眾用藥權益受損所以很多基層的藥師和專家都呼籲政府要積極備戰所以本席想請問衛福部是否已盤點國內必要藥品的供應現況是否還有對於單一來源或全數仰賴進口的藥品有沒有具體的應對計畫"},{"start":14025.812,"end":14041.226,"text":"是的我想我們國內的兩個方面一個是缺藥的一個機制因為剛剛您提的譬如說是短效性的胰島素這個都是必要的一個藥品所以它的缺藥的一個機制以及通知以及它的儲存我們都有這樣的機制"},{"start":14043.101,"end":14061.548,"text":"這個都有盤點第二個就是說我們還是要長年來講推動整個藥品的改革包括支持新藥在地的製造鼓勵國產的學名藥這兩個部分都是增加我們醫藥醫材韌性很重要的工作很好這剛好也是我的問題就是說"},{"start":14063.109,"end":14073.01,"text":"部長是不是可以提出明確的時程您剛剛講我們可以鼓勵我們國內藥廠自製一些關鍵藥品降低對進口的依賴有沒有明確的時程"},{"start":14077.198,"end":14103.756,"text":"市長報委員這邊在食藥署對這個規劃其實非常積極的在進行那這個整個計畫在2月就任以來其實對於學名藥廠原料藥廠及國內外的剛才提到的生物理事的用藥的藥廠都進一步的召集很多的相次委員非常精準的提到我們現在必須要建立更強的一個韌性方向那我們有更進一步的時間積極的在這邊辦理"},{"start":14106.377,"end":14116.481,"text":"應該要有明確的時程嘛我們有個目標有個時程才可以去依據來推動所以是不是會後提供給我們好嗎好的 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 徐委員 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員 謝謝部長署長來 接續我們請王振旭也要你上來啊 來"},{"start":14133.17,"end":14136,"text":"謝謝主席就麻煩邱部長"},{"start":14142.069,"end":14154.818,"text":"市長你好,最近辛苦,台北、台南四月遭,大家要做加油,我們都是嘉義人,被蔡議員說的,我們是嘉義人,這邊的風態對嘉義、台南影響很大,電線感"},{"start":14166.148,"end":14171.736,"text":"一共倒了2454,超過2000基台電的人員,李源和同仁,很高興"},{"start":14181.449,"end":14197.904,"text":"有的就要幫助護店嘛 結果再幫你做董事早期去美醫院 保證也要去關心整個醫院其實所有的大家都不太願意 也希望他們能夠接受那些人我們替他激起所以這部分"},{"start":14200.646,"end":14220.274,"text":"索需要大家來幫忙所以今天就是要有兩個強化啦是那就是要怎樣針對災變的量能來強化弱勢安置那第二個強化就是之前有請教過這個疫苗配套部分要強化基層參與這部分我們來跟保安局來討論一下是強化這個"},{"start":14224.116,"end":14237.887,"text":"有關災情的變化的部分 其實補充也已經強調幾個部分針對運醫療 查災損 顧安置 都有做盡環境的處理方法這部分是不是利用這時間 麻煩補充再給大家報告一下環境的內容 給大家做參考好 我先用這個納斯風災的例子來看我們衛福部的緊急"},{"start":14254.088,"end":14277.561,"text":"緊急應變的一個制度第一個我們一開始當然就是要緊急醫療管理系統就要開案了這樣才能知道各地方傷患所居的情況第二個我們本部有六區我們台灣有六個區的緊急醫療應變中心我們立即來監各個應變中心就是看他當地緊急醫療救護系統其中的情況以及急救責任醫院的運作狀況"},{"start":14278.542,"end":14303.175,"text":"那另外因為這是風災嘛,所以我們怕說淫水或是說有時候剛剛有習委員提的那種情況其實我們也把弱勢的一個病人能夠希望我們所有的縣市我們跟衛生局都有一直在互動把他移到安全的地方,特別是習慎的硬產戶撤離這個都有弱勢,而且這個是"},{"start":14305.616,"end":14316.65,"text":"每8小時可能就要在應變中心裡面報告這樣的一個移動的一個情況以及它整個種情況那當然我們現在如果有更"},{"start":14318.055,"end":14346.149,"text":"更特別的一個災變的一個發生當然我們除了這樣啟動的部分以外當然我們也會更動員到全國的醫療院所的一個支援另外就是社工方面在收容安置這個部分也會有完整的一個規劃包括各個救濟站這個都怎麼樣利用學校怎麼樣利用衛生所等等的這個我們都有"},{"start":14346.829,"end":14362.29,"text":"一個週密的一個機制在規劃其實大家也知道因為台灣真的是每一年的風災颱風影響很大至少一年都平均有3.2個颱風會侵襲台灣每一次颱風之前不管中央地方都會開設"},{"start":14363.751,"end":14392.317,"text":"一些應變中心來做一些安排那也看到這一次的確透過這樣的安排得到很好的一些照顧模式當然還是有很多部分持續要加強啦是剛才博長有跟我們說明說很多都是經過事前的一些安排處置所以也的確發揮它的量能還有互相幫助的這個成果不過我們也知道這個安置到底有沒有制度上的忽略"},{"start":14393.878,"end":14422.12,"text":"這個就是剛剛部長有提到我們看到一些新聞媒體的報導他們說你們待會還有處理屋頂還在就不用通知他們安置所以很顯然就是說我們在制度上需要再補強當然我們透過這一次風災的這麼大的傷害的影響還是有很多需要再檢討的地方所以不是說我們通知就表示"},{"start":14422.8,"end":14439.519,"text":"照顧他的安全同理跟他照顧其實還是有一些落差那尤其現在是不管是偏鄉或者是非偏鄉可是有一些弱勢的失能的失智的長者這邊特別來讓我們知道我們之前都說"},{"start":14442.141,"end":14469.042,"text":"會跟你通知說你去哪裡問題是很多的通知是臨時通知的這些人通知的對或不會這個就是未來我們希望透過這次風災造成的影響在制度上是不是需要再重新檢討同時來補強不管是事前通知也好或者是這些失年的應變機制也好還有偏鄉幼視失能長者的保護機制也好"},{"start":14469.882,"end":14497.783,"text":"這部分我不知道我們現在在檢討的時候會包括幾部分包括剛剛有委員提到在處理他需要呼吸器的還有他可能在家裡需要洗腎的這個如果是沒有電沒有水要怎麼幫忙他屬性要怎麼安排這個應該做到事先就有機制不管是中央要出指引有地方來執行過程當中碰到的問題"},{"start":14498.824,"end":14519.186,"text":"還有中央能不能夠建就是請中央這邊就開始建立這些弱勢的時候出現這些天災害孫應該有完整的安置名冊你先知道說哪裡什麼人他住在哪裡他如果要安置要安置去什麼地方這個都要有一個整體的配套"},{"start":14519.847,"end":14528.312,"text":"我們就不會發生問題,這開始通緝,通緝也不知道我們通緝道有辦法處理還是沒有這部分是不是可以先補充來做相關的這個研議,或者是在執行上將來要怎麼來做應變的部分謝謝委員的一個隨行,那當然我們各個"},{"start":14543.484,"end":14571.747,"text":"因為各個縣市衛生局或社政他都有一定的非常佈置到相當周全的一個照顧那這中間一會發生變化的話無論是電話卡不通啦或者是說人力的縣市這個部分的確如果能夠在照冊上更加的周全包括我們獨基老人這個部分有時候也要注意這樣的情況我想謝謝委員我們會把這樣的工作再把它來檢討來把它更落實"},{"start":14572.667,"end":14600.546,"text":"好,包括衛生、社政,還有包括地方衛生局、林醫長,我們有這個名冊出來,當然你做事情就必然好做第二項就是有關疫苗配套的部分,上一次也有麻煩部長開始來研議相關的,不管是中央或地方來提供這個疫苗能量配送的服務,這部分相信部長應該在部內開始做相關措施的研討,不過"},{"start":14601.446,"end":14618.38,"text":"今天要請教的是我們知道目前有一些疫苗如果出現問題的話他可能就需要做賠償尤其是公費疫苗我們再來看到113年一共有699件是需要做公費疫苗的賠償"},{"start":14620.021,"end":14640.63,"text":"這個賠償裡面有幾個部分其實可以透過一些制度上或者是好的一個設計模式來減少這樣的錯誤包括重複接種 接種間隔時間不足還有施打與非計畫的實施對象這六八九的稿件裡面就有416件其實是可以透過好的資料串接"},{"start":14641.89,"end":14669.969,"text":"你如果主要用好血才有可能說一個人去做兩遍也有可能說你不是要煮的人要你自己來煮這根本不應該讓它發生啊這不然我們不知道有什麼好的辦法讓這個資料的串接不管是透過現有的健保資料庫也好或者是目前的疾管署的資料裡面要讓它串接比較好血不要讓這樣的錯誤重複發生部長這邊有什麼好的方法嗎"},{"start":14671.791,"end":14671.811,"text":"我..."},{"start":14673.533,"end":14699.98,"text":"我也當過很久的醫事公會,包括台北市醫事公會理事長,我覺得我也聽到很多的醫院跟特別是診所在資料上的一個藉階的必要性那其實衛福部在機關署從110年已經全面推動核A的醫療院所,我們用API藉階的模式進行HIDS跟NIDS,就是醫療資訊體系跟"},{"start":14702.18,"end":14730.074,"text":"全國疫防接種資訊管理系統的一個自動交換查詢跟核對修正那到113年已經全國有3200家大概有效的參與可以在24小時裡面就是完成這樣的一個上傳所以那個降低了70%以上的接種勿施所以我想這個部分我們會讓它一直進步"},{"start":14731.319,"end":14756.406,"text":"因為起碼這可以進步就可以減少這方面的困擾避免我們基層的診所在參與的時候不僅付出他的勞力還要被扣款還是還要受到處罰我想也拜託各縣市的醫師公會如果了解一下會員有困難跟當地的縣市衛生局 縣市衛生局其實都很"},{"start":14757.807,"end":14762.093,"text":"很熱心來幫忙處理那跟我們疾管署這邊一起來解決這六百九十九千塊裡面要做造價賠償原價賠償你自己租的金額是四百幾萬"},{"start":14772.956,"end":14795.865,"text":"六百九十九千要四百幾萬,表示說有一些的賠償可能是有一些可以在討論的地方,我們現在只分兩種一個就是無需賠償,不然就是要原價賠償那你中間有一個,有可能說什麼經營之下你要造價賠償,什麼資本什麼經營你就只需要賠償一半啊或者是幾個百分比,這部分可能也要麻煩"},{"start":14798.926,"end":14817.878,"text":"所以最難就是針對這部分來改善這個疫苗配套強化基層參與有三個部分就是能量配送還有這個有效資料串接疫苗處置費我們也知道其實很辛苦出一百塊事實上成本是四百幾塊這個如何能夠讓這個參與者包括基層診所可以用心"},{"start":14822.14,"end":14848.208,"text":"而且能夠努力的來參與,是不是讓一個月裡面有個書面報告這幾點我們都會來努力,而且在一個月內提出書面報告好,謝謝王委員,謝謝部長你的意思是,疫苗要自己保管,風太天天疫苗失效了,要再賠錢要看外部可以專案給你,那稍微稍微稍微"},{"start":14852.659,"end":14865.427,"text":"好,謝謝昭偉還有王偉,我想這個部分我們來瞭解如果天災的話,我們會給他無息賠償,集團署說無息賠償無息賠償,這樣可以,好謝謝部長來最後一個陳穎,快點喔,要結束了,要換演習了啦"},{"start":14883.683,"end":14888.706,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩請我們食藥署江署長"},{"start":14901.518,"end":14927.934,"text":"在你們所屬業務裡面有一個包裝醬油製程的標示規定目前醬油的標示規定大概也分成這幾類有速成醬油、水解醬油、混合調和醬油跟釀造醬油我想要請教就是說在這四種類別的醬油裡面哪一種類別的醬油售價是最高的"},{"start":14931.867,"end":14931.887,"text":"鮑爾元"},{"start":14933.834,"end":14961.236,"text":"很久沒有買醬油猜得好那個應該是釀造醬油因為是最傳統的古法你真的蠻聰明的真的確實是這個釀造的醬油價格是最高的因為雖然這幾種醬油它的這個原料都相同但是釀造的時間最長時間就是金錢所以釀造醬油是售價最高的那那我再請教你你那麼聰明再猜猜看"},{"start":14962.077,"end":14979.593,"text":"在這四個類別裡面在市面上哪一個有一個類別已經是不存在的你知道是哪個類別嗎我猜是右下角的速成是不是還是速成醬油猜一下"},{"start":14980.39,"end":15004.662,"text":"好對果然能夠當食藥署署長頭腦還是不簡單確實這個速成醬油在市面上是已經不存在很久的事情那現在我要請教你這麼聰明的食藥署署長那請問既然已經不存在的類別為什麼你們類別裡面現在還存在這樣子的一個分類"},{"start":15007.096,"end":15021.93,"text":"你要繼續保存呢還是要這個已經不存在的這個我回去檢討一下他的必要性之後再跟委員做進一步報告好你那麼聰明應該知道要怎麼做啦就已經沒有了好那"},{"start":15023.651,"end":15049.736,"text":"再來過去這個衛福部在109年曾經有一項這個醬油產品監測委託辦理計畫雖然當時您不是食藥署署長但是這份報告呢對於現階段的這個包裝醬油製程的這個標示規範規定有很重要的參考價值我想了解就是說你們後來有沒有新的執行計畫或報告出來"},{"start":15053.46,"end":15070.735,"text":"這個計畫之後是沒有再進行另外的計畫那就是維持原來的就沒有新的嘛我記得說這份報告裡面其實我們主要是要解決是否以果醣酸低於0.1%作為標示釀造醬油的依據那檢測結果我們來看一下"},{"start":15078.007,"end":15100.428,"text":"在108件我们国产的酿造酱油里面全部都没有检测到果糖酸出来那29件国外输入的样本27件未检出那有一件是低于0.1%那只有一件是超标的"},{"start":15101.329,"end":15119.099,"text":"這樣的結果顯示出我們台灣自己生產的釀造醬油都很棒都沒有問題那可是呢如果因此我們這樣去要求這些釀造醬油廠商必須要自己去標示"},{"start":15119.959,"end":15143.479,"text":"說他們都沒有含沒有這個果糖酸的這個含量或者是果糖酸低於0.1%那除了這個增加這個檢測的成本之外呢其他他們這個標示也都要全部都改我想這個是一個不太合理的一個要求那因為"},{"start":15144.74,"end":15167.354,"text":"通常要人家主動證明沒有的東西就好像一個無罪的人要證明自己的清白我想一般大家都無罪推論啦那有罪你就是要去提出證據來嘛所以我想這樣的行政規定我不曉得合不合理我不知道這個署長看法怎麼樣"},{"start":15169.242,"end":15186.613,"text":"就果醣酸因為我看這個圖表因為之前同仁們在這個報告裡面有特別跟我報告過那因為食品安全還是以科學分析的基礎如果我管制上面用0.1它能夠涵蓋的解釋度大概是92%"},{"start":15188.414,"end":15211.57,"text":"所以造成了一些會有一些些影響雖然說我們國內的醬油是0.1%的話釀造醬油的確都是符合的但是如果是這樣切下去就會產生一個效果我想後續接下來我們會我想這個已經開始慢慢要進入到去我們會去討論到這個靈敏度跟那個特異度的問題"},{"start":15213.231,"end":15240.329,"text":"我想在這份報告就是另外的結果也有顯示就是說有另外兩種的這個水解跟調和醬油我們再繼續看29個水解醬油有8個果醣酸未檢出或低於0.1%那29個調和醬油有10個未檢出或低於0.1%所以如果以果醣酸作為標示釀造醬油的關鍵指標"},{"start":15243.231,"end":15249.466,"text":"那我們看18個水解跟調和醬油可不可以標示為釀造醬油"},{"start":15251.533,"end":15276.364,"text":"因為這個數據這樣子顯示我們反過來講那如果他可以標示如果規定是這樣那他標示了釀造醬油這個價格馬上就翻倍了剛剛署長馬上就猜說釀造醬油應該是最貴的現在大家都知道了那本來或許這些業者也沒有想要標示為這個釀造醬油的意圖"},{"start":15278.365,"end":15305.074,"text":"但是如果你們強制做了這樣的規定之後呢漏洞出來了他們反而可以就是說違反規定就是讓價格翻倍也會變成是沒有違規的問題了我在這裡特別提出這樣子的推論不知道署長認不認同委員這個講得非常非常精準因為就我的"},{"start":15306.372,"end":15321.62,"text":"市場的稽查的時候如果以這個標準去當稽查那的確他一線切下來他小於0.1如果他標示說他是釀造的我們很難去做後續判斷他真的釀造或者是"},{"start":15322.6,"end":15339.34,"text":"不是随机好所以我现在特别点出这样子的问题那看来食药署都有弄懂了那我想问题的本质在于没有的你们要人家自己去证明自己没有那"},{"start":15340.96,"end":15369.115,"text":"卻反而開了一扇門讓他們讓這些就是說可能或許未來變成有機會不違規的去做不正確的標示那我想就是說我也是有點想不通啦所以說這樣子去改變醬油的標示那我不曉得這個意義到底在哪裡除了增加成本給出模糊的空間以外到底還有什麼就是說有利於民眾的好處"},{"start":15370.475,"end":15398.289,"text":"有嗎目前我們針對這個議題其實持續在研議也邀請一些專家委員來協助我們去做該如何去的確果醣酸單一的很困難當作是一個判斷因為醬油我們每天每天這麼多人在吃那現在是這樣我舉個例子好了就像早期這個紅標米酒的原料它也"},{"start":15399.789,"end":15419.689,"text":"應該不是早期啦我是說紅標米酒的原料它也有參入這個食品級的鹽酸那經過發酵蒸餾之後它就完全就去除了難道我們也一樣要要求紅標米酒變成鹽酸米酒嗎你家變成鹽酸米酒我想大家看了這個字眼應該都不敢買了吧"},{"start":15420.45,"end":15448.155,"text":"那在特別在監察院110年8月23號的函文裡面這個有特別提醒你們說在把這個食品安全衛生管理法第28條第一項規定食品標示不得有不實誇張或異生誤解之情形所以我拿監察院特別再提醒你們的這個條文再提醒你們一次因為"},{"start":15449.775,"end":15468.983,"text":"在這個水解過程中使用鹽酸那醬油販售成為商品之後它也就都沒有鹽酸了那還要要求廠商來標示說鹽酸水解醬油或者酸水解醬油我覺得這個是讓民眾"},{"start":15472.445,"end":15496.402,"text":"看了會卻步的事情所以這樣子的要求其實是很擾民的啦那我不知道就是說署長你新上任你就大力要來支持這樣子的一個規定還是說你有什麼樣比較合理的一個想法跟看法因為我很怕你們被逼著違法耶"},{"start":15497.407,"end":15521.66,"text":"報告委員這邊因為不管我們的鹽酸或者我們之前其他的叫做氫鹽也就是酸鹼平衡裡面的氫氧化鈉都是所謂的加工注劑這加工注劑在國際間的規範在我們在標示的部分其實是沒有強制這樣子的標示那要因為已經的確是吳委員所說的化學反應之後最後它其實是沒有特別鹽酸的存在"},{"start":15522.02,"end":15548.243,"text":"沒有就不用再要求人家寫了吧我想本席是絕對要會支持就是說我們要有正確的標示還有關鍵指標建立那既然 署長你又是這個台大的這個醫學院的教授好的指標必須要同時要符合這個我剛剛前面講的靈敏度跟他的特異度都要高同時都要高那所以這份報告在你們沒有新的數據出來之前他"},{"start":15549.883,"end":15563.889,"text":"我們現在有的也就是一個最新的參考數據所以結果是證明說以果醣酸當釀造醬油的關鍵判定指標它是存在有這個特異度高靈敏度不到七成的問題"},{"start":15564.969,"end":15585.214,"text":"好所以我想今天整個質詢我必須點出這個那全世界也都沒有其他國家有做這樣的規定所以除非你們有最新的數據支持不然我們要貿然去改變這樣的一個標示一定要有很明確的目的跟依據不然你們就是為了管制而管制了嗎那"},{"start":15586.234,"end":15603.062,"text":"除了增加業者的成本那也就是說業者提高了這個醬油的價格然後到頭來最後傷害的還是我們民眾的荷包甚至影響到物價上揚所以我最後請你們就是說醬油製造為釀造醬油以果醣酸為標示重新檢討那並於這個"},{"start":15611.286,"end":15621.415,"text":"就是說我讓你們有很長的時間六個月一年都可以你們就是好好研究然後提出報告之後再來做這個定論好不好"},{"start":15622.366,"end":15641.861,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我們待會去進一步的研究分析 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝陳委員 謝謝署長本次會議診斷全部結束委員陳永康 楊耀 廖瑋祥 盧憲一所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":15643.155,"end":15659.025,"text":"現在做以下宣告 報告局勤勞完畢委員實行未及答覆或請補充資料者相關機關以兩週內以書面答覆委員另行要求者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束 現在散會"},{"start":15662.614,"end":15662.654,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16820","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16820","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eab29573f7f40ddb36c2e91769a1d91c6180a0af5ed963d0f586dc16c1b5a93f3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-07-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第29次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關原住民族委員會預算凍結專案報告案計2案。(一)原住民族委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第1目「一般行政」預算繼續凍結2,000萬元專案報告，請查照案。(二)原住民族委員會函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送第9目「原住民族教育推展－原住民族教育協調與發展經費」預算繼續凍結5,000萬元專案報告，請查照案。【預算解凍案如經院會復議則不予處理。】二、審查「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」等4案：(一)繼續審查行政院函請審議「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。(二)繼續審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。(三)繼續審查委員賴惠員等21人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。(四)審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「平埔原住民族群身分法草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-07-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-07-17T08:36:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-07-17T11:41:00+08:00","duration":11059,"影片長度":"03:04:19","委員發言時間":"08:36:41 - 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業經本會於114年5月22號第11屆第三會期第21次會議決議 令定期繼續審查另外 平埔原住民族群身份法草案業經本會於114年6月30日第11屆第三會期第28次會議決議 令定期繼續審查原此本次會議繼續進行審查"},{"start":2100.266,"end":2123.047,"text":"現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分我們張宏祿召委黃婕委員王美惠委員吳祁銘委員高金樹梅委員徐宇貞委員還有鄭天才委員"},{"start":2126.058,"end":2150.494,"text":"觀眾朋友 今天我們討論原住民的相關事項我們原住民組委員會 曾志勇 主任委員好 各位委員會報告一下因為我們本日議程有新增的審查法案就是鄭天才委員有新的版本所以我們請提案委員要說明提案要旨我們請鄭天才委員說不說明 好"},{"start":2151.536,"end":2151.936,"text":"沒有同意"},{"start":2176.553,"end":2179.957,"text":"對於基本設施維持費有凍結百分之八那確定拿掉請問一下百分之八的額度是多少"},{"start":2199.912,"end":2226.833,"text":"大概是5000萬那這5000萬你們以前以來都是怎麼用也是撥給我們鄉區公所也是撥給鄉區公所那最主要是看他們災害的部分比如說像今年的剛剛的那個颱風那這個是比如說像那個南馬廈桃園茂林"},{"start":2227.874,"end":2247.394,"text":"還有滿洲這個受傷比較嚴重那當然我們有一些經費就希望屹住在這裡在很即刻的幫忙他們所以是由園民會直接對所以這個就是在你們一般行政向下的部分嘛對不對災害準備金叫做這個是吧對對對"},{"start":2249.256,"end":2271.824,"text":"類似災害就是說基本設施維持費嘛我記得這是在基本設施維持費裡面嘛那其實呢主委我在救救你喔基本設施維持費它本來就是原民會應該要給鄉公所的每年長期以來每年長期以來都有嘛是不是那這一次這個凍結百分之八的理由是什麼"},{"start":2272.475,"end":2297.692,"text":"就剛剛講的就是希望說有發生一些像災害尤其是災害啦我們希望臨時事故我們希望我們能夠就是說很快的來協助鄉可是問題是這以前本來就是他們的預算啊對我們那從以前從來沒有你們園民會苛扣他們8%我知道只有這一次園民會特別苛扣了這幾個地方的8%"},{"start":2299.468,"end":2325.08,"text":"我跟委員報告我們以前我還沒有來以前就有這樣的就一流了沒有耶 就我了解你們都是給都是做給原鄉的這些因為這個所謂的基本設施維持費我講白了從蘇貞昌最早的時候我當立委我們整個鄉公所 鄉長去找他要的嘛一直維持到現在嘛原因是因為長期以來原鄉的這個經費不足是"},{"start":2329.263,"end":2337.615,"text":"因為我們在統籌分配款的部分在原鄉地區是不足的所以我們希望中央能夠另外再給原鄉地區這些所謂的基本設施維持費"},{"start":2342.148,"end":2366.863,"text":"沒有錯吧我講這個歷史淵源沒有錯吧既然是這樣長期以來都有那我希望你們這個百分之八拿掉好不好你不要因為今天就是高雄有這個災害然後你覺得是OK那我們覺得其他的鄉也應該拿掉你讓尤其是這一陣子是風災最多的時候你看到新聞了嗎"},{"start":2368.812,"end":2383.681,"text":"馬上好他第二個風災又要來颱風就要來了那他會到哪裡不知道所以是不是你在這邊可以跟著我們所有的55個原鄉的地區的公所來保證這筆錢一定會給他們"},{"start":2386.789,"end":2408.445,"text":"我想我跟委員在這裡做報告說我們一定會這個本來就是要給地方是不是允許容許我們就是說我們來徵詢一下鄉區公所先讓我們跟他們做一個徵詢是不是如果把這個錢全部撥下去了那未來有一些災害如果一些緊急狀況我們就不知道要怎麼樣來你明明會有災害預備金啊你怎麼會這麼說幕僚你們不要在那邊隨便亂交主委啦"},{"start":2418.049,"end":2443.4,"text":"好啦我們不要浪費那麼多時間啦所以主委你現在能不能告訴我就是現在取消百分之八這個部分我們這樣好不好我也我們即刻來檢討啦那我們也珍惜鄉區公所的意見我相信尤其是幾個民興災區啦比較容易受災的這個鄉區公所我們也尊重他們啦那這個是我們的這個所以你的意思苛扣這百分之八你是要重新分配嗎"},{"start":2444.72,"end":2461.217,"text":"不像以前這樣子按照這樣的模式分配下去嗎我跟委員講從以前就有預留一些就是說我們準備就是有一些緊急的時候我了解了但是也沒有到那麼多啊"},{"start":2462.354,"end":2487.79,"text":"來 那個 是不是讓那個 處長說明一下好 處長你說明一下就從過去有機車費開始 原民會就一直有預留這樣的一筆經費主要是因應鄉鎮市區公所他們的一些緊急需求我知道 但是那個時候你們並沒有用文字 用公文給是 我們本來就想說要大家都是有一個默契嘛可是你們這次是特別行文嘛所以才會造成原住民的立法委員 尤其我"},{"start":2488.61,"end":2497.449,"text":"因為我很清楚這筆錢是我跟鄭天才兩個人去蘇貞昌當行政院長的時候 對吧那個鄭委員 是嗎"},{"start":2499.234,"end":2528.614,"text":"張俊雄開始到蘇貞昌總共調了兩次耶所以我們很清楚知道這筆預算這筆預算等於就是鄉公所跟區公所他們口袋裡面中央不足的部分他們在在有一些運用的所以長期以來真的是對他們來講是非常重要的一筆預算那以前從來沒有用行文的規定要扣多少但是你們這一次特別用行文的規定好不好"},{"start":2528.974,"end":2546.484,"text":"那所以我這樣子我們就百分之八這個拿掉然後你說你要去跟那個公所他們溝通好不好然後你看五千多萬來講也不少啦所以呢希望如果今天這樣同意的話那這筆就OK好嗎我們就這樣處理謝謝"},{"start":2550.826,"end":2576.997,"text":"好 謝謝高精素美委員請王美蕙委員主席 在剛才討論的時候看得出來以前民進黨的行政對關注民的照顧所以說在長久以來 鄭天才立委跟高精素立委不管是什麼人都委託關注民"},{"start":2579.165,"end":2604.877,"text":"關心和照顧,我相信我們在座不是關注民的那一套但是看到關注民的身口,我們也應該去協助、去倒三角但是剛才我聽到我們的主委說明星災區我聽起來覺得很感厚,尤其在最近嘉南的災害,說實在聽到明星災區"},{"start":2607.236,"end":2618.041,"text":"主委 這個明星災區 後來不要再說一句 真正的災區對當地人都實在是很健康的還有在這個規定當中 我覺得剛才有說到這八八的問題說可以保護他們的公所"},{"start":2633.447,"end":2651.939,"text":"我的意見是說,這次的災害在加以觀、阿里山區、在沙窟的關主民是管政府、內協組員、還是你們的關主民,有人到三天以這次"},{"start":2653.883,"end":2664.149,"text":"你回答這次 前一陣子前一陣子你不要講 跟這次的經營你怎麼用是不是有什麼問題沒有請主委你講一下 民生災區不要再講了好 不好意思我們不是民生災區 不會再講民生災區就是經常頻繁發生災區的地方那這次阿里山"},{"start":2680.916,"end":2683.322,"text":"改善不是這樣,覺得這樣很粗糙的,這樣是很不好的來,那個最近發生的"},{"start":2690.816,"end":2711.493,"text":"阿里山這次阿里山的部分齁他還是就是連絡道路就是這個坡路到那個坡路中間這個連絡道路有攤房是有的有攤房但是現在都已經清除掉了當時他也有停電他也有停電我知道清除掉我現在是說我先抓好你們原住民拿去做什麼啦你們的單位拿去做什麼關心什麼啦"},{"start":2717.642,"end":2724.211,"text":"我不知道清楚還是沒有 我今天怎麼...百官百鄉經常在說的 去說到...跟二官這個阿里山苦茶"},{"start":2728.922,"end":2747.492,"text":"我是說你怎麼關心啊好好來來來 組長包委員我們這次針對災後復原重建我們有三項措施第一個是提供臨時工作機會第二個是修善住宅補助每戶最高12萬第三個呢"},{"start":2748.132,"end":2760.155,"text":"是有關急難救助每戶最高是兩萬另外還有原住民中央發展基金的融資部分化的利息的減免三項"},{"start":2761.412,"end":2774.541,"text":"在這三項裡面 本市要來提供意見現在我們內政部委 包括這次立總統跟院長有支持之前的補助都是兩萬 五千 兩萬這次調整到五萬 你們要好下去"},{"start":2783.087,"end":2786.59,"text":"研究一下,因為這件事實在是很嚴重的,不能四點點說古代寶座這樣,就是這樣走,因為東西也都去過了,這件事也很嚴重的,所以你們的單位跟"},{"start":2799.281,"end":2826.205,"text":"主委你怎麼去了解不違法當中怎麼去協助他們這個這麼嚴重的受災害包委昨天剛好行政院陳金澤陳政委員已經邀請相關部會開會那據我所知內政部針對住宅休餐有救助措施啦那我想等行政院通過之後應該我們也會善用這個資源協助主人來申請這樣的救助"},{"start":2826.923,"end":2847.291,"text":"好 義兄謝謝好 請問各位委員針對預算凍結案還有沒有什麼特別要補充或詢問的嗎好 那我們要做決定囉請問各位委員這兩案我們是否均同意動之讓他解凍同意好 謝謝那我們就委員會無異議均同意動之我們就提報院會"},{"start":2849.178,"end":2860.558,"text":"好謝謝那我們預算解通案到此為止現在我們處理法案報告委員會現在進行法案處理請宣讀新增提案條文若有修正動議以及附帶決議我們請一併宣讀"},{"start":2864.54,"end":2886.362,"text":"委員鄭天才等19人提案名稱及第一條同行政院提案第二條行政院設平埔原住民族群委員會為本法至中央主管機關其組織另以法律定之不受中央行政機關組織基準法規定之限制前項機關設立前本法鎖定事項由原住民族委員會辦理第三條至第21條均同行政院提案"},{"start":2887.003,"end":2915.215,"text":"第二十二条第一项为平普原住民族群语言及文化之保障准用原住民族语言发展法及原住民族传统智慧创作保护条例其余同行政院提案第二十三条政府应以本法实行后三年内充分考量各平普原住民族群与其成员之历史发展脉络及现况并斟酌国家资源分配制定平普原住民族群基本法等法律或修正相关法律保障其政治参与交通水利"},{"start":2915.635,"end":2943.415,"text":"卫生医疗经济土地及社会福利等权利第24条同行政院提案修正动议1第10条第二项前项审议会委员应为11人至23人任意性别委员不得少于总额三分之一其余同行政院提案提案人委员王美惠等4人修正动议2第二条本法所称主管机关在中央为行政院在直辖市为直辖市政府在县市为县市政府"},{"start":2944.095,"end":2970.932,"text":"提案人委员高金素美等四人附带决议有关本法第23条规定三年内应制定或修正相关法律以保障平普族群权利一事未落实立法意旨请主管机关于本法实行后六个月内盘点并提出应办理法律制定或修正事项之具体细目规划执行其成及分工机制以加速平普族群权益推展提案人委员高金素美等四人宣读完毕"},{"start":2975.045,"end":2999.113,"text":"謝謝提案條文修正同意附帶決議我們都已宣讀完畢所以我們現在進行討論我們請問一下這個委員會各委員我們要不要進行大體討論不用還是直接進主條好謝謝那我們就直接進行主條的協商那我們現在進行主條協商那我們就坐在一起吧今天這樣討論比較快麻煩一下大家"},{"start":3065.359,"end":3086.872,"text":"好那我們現在開始逐條討論齁那個我們就以院版為母版嘛對不對然後各個委員的版本參酌對照這樣可以嗎好首先名稱法案名稱平埔原住民族群身份法請問各位有沒有意見這大家都一樣沒有沒有意見那我們就通過來第一條"},{"start":3091.294,"end":3100.102,"text":"各提案條文內容都相同認定平埔原住民族群保障平埔原住民身份認同權特制定本法請問這條大家有意見嗎沒有第一條第一條這個都一樣啦沒有好我們就通過囉好不好照原本通過好"},{"start":3114.692,"end":3135.255,"text":"第二條,主管機關,這個大家要有一點分歧按照院版的說法,主管機關在中央為原住民主委員會在直轄市為直轄市政府,在縣市為縣市政府那林一景委員等人提案,賴慧媛委員等人提案,跟行政院版本相同"},{"start":3136.673,"end":3153.14,"text":"鄭天才委員等人提案是說要設平埔族群委員會那我們剛剛這邊又有修正動議這個高金素美委員提的修正動議是說主管機關在中央應為行政院顯然大家意見比較不一樣那麼針對第二條的部分我們現在請各位發表看法"},{"start":3155.204,"end":3174.593,"text":"我們王美惠委員然後林益菁委員主席然後再高菁委員好請主席謝謝在這裡我覺得文化最主要的規範平埔族關注民的新聞的認定另外也要規定辦理平埔族社會和經濟的總統的調查為何保存和發展平埔族文化的認定和"},{"start":3184.138,"end":3184.78,"text":"但是不管本法是不是在這個期間來成立法"},{"start":3191.772,"end":3216.549,"text":"這些工作人員都一定要做的原住民會是不是有所謂完成準備包含增加多少人經費多少人力要如何如何盡進去使用請原住民會說明一下因為是不是做這個也要調整以上"},{"start":3220.267,"end":3243.919,"text":"好 謝謝林益菁委員然後高菁委員我們待會委員講完我們政府機關同意回答好不好高菁委員之後是政天才委好 林益菁委員有請好 謝謝主席主席現在是第二條還是第一條第二條那不好意思我晚到我可以第一條也補充說明一下沒關係第一條大家都第一條都一樣都一樣"},{"start":3245.402,"end":3274.742,"text":"沒關係 如果只要講一下 留個記錄是不錯的了解了解好好 謝謝 謝謝我想是這樣的 今天的法案審查我想我一開始先要聲明立場就是說我是強烈支持就是我跟吳麗華委員等人有一同提出直接對原住民身份法的修法我想高基金委員也贊同來保障評估原住民的身份認同權益因為憲法法庭當初判決的時候有所保留留給行政機關跟立法"},{"start":3275.643,"end":3294.585,"text":"立法的空間就是說直接修原住民身份法或修身份法專法都可以所以才變成今天我們用評普原住民族群身份法這個草案的這種情況那從另一個角度的思考就是說既然大法官並沒有裁決一定要立專法"},{"start":3295.546,"end":3311.009,"text":"那我覺得我們就要來好好的審思是不是應該把吳麗華委員的版本拉進來一起審才可以對得起這次憲法法庭最完備的處理因為畢竟是本質上幾乎相同的東西都是要"},{"start":3311.71,"end":3326.777,"text":"都是要照顧評普原住民族的身份認同權啦那我想說再強調一次就是說評普原住民族的身份認同它經過大法官憲法判決的民文保障那我覺得作為立法者真的要絕對來落實這樣的判決結果"},{"start":3329.438,"end":3352.693,"text":"那所以今天我們選擇在憲法這個判決的框架下來進行這個法案的審查那我想該有的身份的這個認同保障就絕對要周延所以回復權利這件事情我覺得就是要有毫無區別的保障我想某程度應該是要這樣子才能回應這個判決 憲法法庭的判決那我想"},{"start":3354.274,"end":3366.948,"text":"最後我再提一下就是說因為我們現在這個法案名稱叫做評普原住民族群身份法那我是比較納悶的是說為什麼要加族群兩個字"},{"start":3368.85,"end":3386.684,"text":"為什麼不能直接就是用平埔原住民族來代之因為我們在我想主委應該很清楚我們在台南座談會的時候那個萬振雄長老就跟你強烈建議說不該寫平埔原住民族群族群這兩個字應該要拿掉否則他在法律上"},{"start":3387.845,"end":3403.707,"text":"就是有一些所謂的區分嘛你不把平埔原住民當作原住民來看所以我覺得如果可以把這個族群這兩個字拿掉那這樣子的話會感覺跟整個全部的原住民族是有共同政治的這個"},{"start":3404.688,"end":3428.077,"text":"政治命運的民主啦所以我覺得是不是就是平埔援助民主這樣就好我想這個部分我再講一下那好 第二條不好意思第二條是這樣我覺得最大的爭議還是就是來自鄭天才委員他提案要設立這個平埔援助民主委員會那可是我覺得無論怎樣的立論就要把平埔援助民主跟人民會切開來管轄我覺得"},{"start":3431.658,"end":3451.318,"text":"不是很適、很妥適啦齁因為我們如果從憲法判決來看喔其實很明顯很明顯這個不該這樣子區分那我想簡單講一下就是說在憲法法庭111憲判自第17號判決的判決理由他的理由書的第27段大法官有指出"},{"start":3452.139,"end":3477.661,"text":"大法官解釋憲法應隨時代進步 哪年時代脈動做出因應符合時代需求的解釋不該拘泥於這個憲法部分條文用於形式也不該用於修憲過程的字字片語自使這個憲法保障人權的本質那這個重點在哪裡 重點就是憲法跟憲法解釋都是寫要保障人權"},{"start":3478.362,"end":3500.171,"text":"所以我覺得我們應該有新的進步的寬容的展現那所以我覺得在憲法法庭這個判決有書都已經有明確表示還沒有身份的其他的台灣原住民族領印在身份認定上被認定為都是原住民所以我覺得就沒有設立平埔原住民族委員會的必要性以上 謝謝好 那我們按照剛剛的順序好不好接下來是高金委員然後鄭天才委員然後黃婕維OK"},{"start":3508.55,"end":3509.431,"text":"我們讓政見者委員先吧好非常謝謝大家第一個這個"},{"start":3519.249,"end":3547.224,"text":"刚提到这个是不是要从修正原住民身份法这个部分因为宪法的判决是给了两条路一个是修原住民身份法另外一个就是另制定专法所以行政院经过召开很多场的人民会到各地区开了很多场的说明会"},{"start":3548.308,"end":3574.986,"text":"包括平埔族人的說明會也包括了原住民的說明會所以他們後來採納了憲法判決的第二種方法就是另制定專法這是第一個那修原住民身份法行政院曾經提出在第九屆這個很重要請大家聽一下行政院在第九屆立法院第九屆的時候"},{"start":3576.021,"end":3602.647,"text":"提出過修正原住民身份法針對平埔原住民在106年開始內政委員會審查審查完出委員會從107年送到院會當時民進黨是集於絕對多數那是行政院版本喔但是"},{"start":3604.181,"end":3626.434,"text":"我不知道是什麼原因什麼理由但是並沒有把行政院版本二讀三讀從107年108年到109年的1月31號第九屆結束所以這個部分就必須要去去深思思考那既然現在行政院"},{"start":3628.476,"end":3644.446,"text":"依憲法的判決送了這個令定專法也就是現在的版本所以我建議就是以現在的行政案的版本包括現在有的這些已經提案的一起來討論這是第一個"},{"start":3646.618,"end":3662.224,"text":"第二個我的條文之所以會建議就是說另外成立平埔原住民族群委員會最主要就是說因為按照憲法的判決"},{"start":3664.055,"end":3689.614,"text":"這個平埔原住民的相關的權益要另外去評估去考量去調查然後去決定他的相關的權利所以有這樣的一個情形之下如果我們同意讓他成立一個平埔原住民族群委會另外一個機關的話"},{"start":3691.311,"end":3718.06,"text":"對於平埔族人的權益的爭取保障會更好這個是我個人長期當公務員然後當立委之後的一個思考所以我才會提出這樣的一個條文因為也許大家會說為什麼都是原住民還要分成兩個機關呢我跟大家報告"},{"start":3719.727,"end":3747.763,"text":"曾經曾經陳水扁總統時代曾經政務委員建議要成立一個民主事務部民主事務部然後包含什麼包含原住民的業務客家的業務蒙藏的業務包括其他少數族群的業務當初我們原住民是反對的"},{"start":3749.631,"end":3755.476,"text":"事實上一個機關如果處理不同的潛意不同的族族的時候"},{"start":3757.574,"end":3780.204,"text":"這個當主任委員的或是當主管的都會常常會會有一些爭執內部啊會有這樣的一個情形所以我的我是認為說真正如果要去爭取保障平埔族人的潛意真的是要另外成立一個機關啊比如說就像同樣是這個漢族為什麼"},{"start":3783.605,"end":3807.918,"text":"有閩南有客家我們就願意讓客家委員會成立這個就是有他的不同的地方就是因為有他的不同所以我們怎麼樣去加強他的權益的保障就成立一個機關這個是當然我知道很難被接受但是我願意讓大家知道說我的利益"},{"start":3808.658,"end":3833.539,"text":"真的是包括後面的條文我都會繼續來跟大家做說明給大家做一個參考以上 謝謝謝謝 請高經緯人好 謝謝就我了解這個草案是從蔡英文到現在已經歷經了十年也歷經了我們的前主委 宜將主委還有現在的曾主委"},{"start":3834.199,"end":3844.149,"text":"那麼我更了解的是曾主委對於這個現在行政院送出來的這個版本呢其實呢跟我們的總統賴清德也見過面所以呢我們現在討論的是行政院的版本那麼剛剛第一條呢名稱已經通過了然後現在我們來談的是第二條"},{"start":3855.359,"end":3862.029,"text":"第二條我記得大家在六月底的時候這邊有非常多的內政委員會的委員們的質詢我們講得很清楚平埔族群的權益不是原民會一個單位就能決定的事情"},{"start":3870.942,"end":3875.486,"text":"不管管是我們原住民的立委這樣認為紅路委員也認為很多在場的委員其實大家都認為這件事情是非常大的事情所以不會是一個園民會這麼一個小小的單位目前的園民會其實在整個行政院的體制裡面可能算是原住民裡面的一個幕僚單位而已"},{"start":3894.58,"end":3923.411,"text":"所以他很难做一些决定所以呢我觉得就是说行政院他应该要负总责要统筹的主要原因有三项那么我今天的修正动议大家看一下我说的主管机关是要放在行政院的原因是这样那么什么原因呢我提一下大概有三点第一个是人民会本来他的业务的能力就非常不足了"},{"start":3924.031,"end":3941.838,"text":"怎么可能还能够再扛住更多而且我们来看一下现在原住民族人口我们是占全台湾的人口2.59%理论上我们的中央应该要编列811亿给圆明会可是现在圆明会只分到126亿"},{"start":3943.539,"end":3966.512,"text":"只佔我們的預算裡面的0.39%更不要講原民會裡面的公務人員的原額到目前來講還沒有補足那麼說白一點原民會連現在原住民應該要有的我們的原額還有預算都爭取不到我們又怎麼樣能夠期待平埔族群"},{"start":3967.572,"end":3990.324,"text":"回來了之後 園民會可以幫他們爭取到應該要有的權益上一次主委就講大概第一波會有十萬人嘛對不對然後第二波第三波還會更多那所以呢我們認為平埔族的權力他其實是分散在一大堆的部會"},{"start":3991.405,"end":4006.378,"text":"而人民會他根本也沒有所謂的統整的能力我們看一下評估的權利跟法律我們把它攤開來看一下我算過至少他算在了各部會包括什麼考試院"},{"start":4007.532,"end":4020.582,"text":"文化部教育部海洋環境內政衛福等等這部會這些部會都關心到平埔族我們的鄉親們的權益這個一個園民會他怎麼能夠來做這件事情園民會調查出來平埔的權益涉及了多少個法條總共有127條的法律"},{"start":4036.874,"end":4052.359,"text":"283條的法規命令我再次要請問一下大家一個園民會它怎麼能夠統合呢這樣子是一個非常大跨部會的工程如果沒有上級機關的行政院來統籌"},{"start":4053.86,"end":4069.776,"text":"我认为什么都推不动了我们必须要务实来看这件事情好了第三个我在讲就算有行政院他统筹我们的经验是过去其实呢这个法案就拖了十年了啦"},{"start":4071.826,"end":4087.783,"text":"然后呢94年我们原基法通过的时候光是一个34条哦在34条里面我们也要求各机关在三年之内各部会要修法配合我们原基法哦"},{"start":4088.897,"end":4108.49,"text":"行政院呢透過原基法的推動會來追蹤結果大家知道嗎我們光是原基法通過94年的原基法的34條裡面花了10年才把一些各部會要修法的都配合完畢"},{"start":4109.96,"end":4112.201,"text":"現在我們要叫園民會一個機關而且他緣額真的那麼少然後他要管那麼多的事情目前的事情都管不了了那三年之內在我們這個法條裡面有定三年之內我們的平埔族群要搞定他所有的權益"},{"start":4130.052,"end":4138.984,"text":"還有我真的是在立法院已經23年了我真的平心而論大家好好的思考真的能夠在三年內來處理127條的法律283條的法規命令嗎"},{"start":4148.236,"end":4152.721,"text":"至於經費更不要講了經費 園民會到現在我們的一公頃六萬塊的金髮補償還不知道從哪裡來所以我相信在場的真主委一定很頭大了"},{"start":4166.877,"end":4195.391,"text":"所以我覺得我的我剛剛說的修正動議的版本我們務實來看所以我才會參照離島建設條例我們讓行政院做主管機關那行政院來統整協商來給資源不然的話我認為平埔族群的保障他只會繼續淪為空頭支票以上我的補充說明謝謝謝謝高金素美委員黃教委員有請"},{"start":4197.213,"end":4219.356,"text":"好那我認為第二條其實是這整部法裡面最關鍵的一條因為我們必須要依照憲判17號來來進行這一步法的討論所以我認為這一條大家花時間討論是很好的一件事情但是我在這邊還是要強調因為其實在裡面有兩個版本是一個是正天才委員的版本是希望另設平埔原住民族群委員會"},{"start":4220.217,"end":4242.676,"text":"那在高金委員的版本裡面是希望主管機關變成行政院那我覺得這個其實要想清楚就是說這部法修法的複雜之處最讓人家擔心的然後各界有疑慮的其實就是擔心說這部法到底修了之後是加深不同族群之間的隔閡還是讓大家可以獲得自己的身份認同"},{"start":4243.897,"end":4264.949,"text":"所以我希望等一下主委可以先說明的就是憲判17號的精神有沒有辦法透過這一條去展現因為其實憲判17號裡面精神就是說平埔族是原住民族平埔族是原住民族那既然這個意思這麼明確了所以我們這個主管機關是不是主管機關就是原民會"},{"start":4266.39,"end":4283.158,"text":"這個其實主委應該要跟大家說明是不是這樣才是能夠保障平埔族的身份認同最重要的一個關鍵喔那當然目前我們政院跟移情委員跟讓會委員的版本裡面都是直接說主管機關就是園民會"},{"start":4284.278,"end":4301.198,"text":"那所以我覺得這個在這邊一定要清楚的釐清就是這個如果我們另外再拉一個評普的原住民族委員會會不會反而加深不同族群之間的隔閡呢那我覺得這個一定要要釐清清楚那其實我有把這個"},{"start":4302.579,"end":4329.497,"text":"就是你們開了好幾場座談會有徵詢大家的意見那我看到六月的時候其實在台南廠有開一場會議那裡面的記錄有很多主人有提到說他們覺得社會福利跟政治的代表的席次要怎麼設計都可以另外再討論但目前最需要的其實就是要明確肯認他們的身份要讓他們知道說平埔族群就是原住民這件事情要能夠被設計在這個條文裡面"},{"start":4332.199,"end":4349.714,"text":"那這個也是我認為憲判最重要的精神啦所以我覺得不管怎麼樣這一條一定要清楚的讓平埔族可以獲得這樣的身份認同所以我希望這一條希望大家可以在這邊有一個共識以上謝謝謝謝我們請蘇曉慧委員然後張璐召委蘇委員有請"},{"start":4354.653,"end":4362.019,"text":"好 非常感謝在我前面這個黃姐委員還有高經委員的發言我覺得都很有道理啦那尤其剛剛高經委員有提到的這段話他說這個如果我們要處理這個平樸族原住民這樣子的一個長年的爭議議題身份認定的這個問題的話其實我們要修正推動的會有跨越非常非常多不同的部會以及處理非常非常多的法條"},{"start":4382.557,"end":4404.006,"text":"沒錯 這確實事情確實是這樣這也不禁讓我想起上一次在跟這個園民會的質詢的時候我是不是就也說到了其實在現有園民事務 園民問題它本來就是方方面面所有原住民的事務本來就是從教育 文化 衛福 社政"},{"start":4405.086,"end":4411.969,"text":"所有所有的通通都包括了所以一個園民會其實就是一個小行政院所以你們的人力夠嗎你們的預算夠嗎當時其實園民會也是笑笑點點頭這是一個這樣大家都知道的狀況"},{"start":4421.832,"end":4440.76,"text":"因為原額就是這樣多那預算就是這樣多但是要處理的事務那麼多好所以剛剛高進委員提到的平埔族原住民的問題沒錯啊我也同意問題有這麼多但原民會難道就沒有嗎這是第一個問題所以你現在把平埔族放到行政院之下那我們原來既存的16族"},{"start":4442.521,"end":4470.389,"text":"那還要原民會嗎還是也要拉到行政院不然兩者不是又產生新的不公平嗎這不是有點奇怪嗎好在第二反過來講如果我們現在平埔原住民是一個我們要擴大我們的認同同意這個土地上其實就是有平埔族的朋友們他們也應該具有原住民的身份所以我們依照憲判把它重新身份確認之後那"},{"start":4472.27,"end":4498.768,"text":"他不就是台灣的原住民嗎只是他是平埔族的朋友啊所以他應該是跟原住民這個大家庭本來就是在一起的啊好所以我的論點是這樣我認為不管是現在大家所熟悉的原住民各族群又或者是我們今天在討論的平埔原住民其實都是台灣的族人台灣的原住民他們應該是一樣的他們在這些不管是權利義務或者種種的狀況那麼政府要給他們的"},{"start":4502.75,"end":4529.61,"text":"這些所有的措施其實都應該由同一個單位一起來執行這個單位如果現在不夠力應該是讓這個單位更大更有力嘛比如說比如說上次也有人提過啊我們是不是可以考慮在我們的政務委員當中是不是能夠增設一個讓我們的原民會主委兼政務委員所以這個原民會主委他就具有跨部會協調的能力"},{"start":4531.943,"end":4554.18,"text":"這是不是反而是比較容易解決問題的方法我們是很認真在討論事情要解決原住民朋友長期的困境的嘛那再進一步而言大家說行政院啦好你把主管機關放行政院坦白講行政院的事情有多少大家也不是不知道那行政院作為主管機關他能夠把全部的心力放在處理原住民朋友的身上嗎我覺得這也有一點難"},{"start":4556.321,"end":4579.659,"text":"事實上大家也知道行政院這個單位本身真正的員額有多少搞不好還沒有員民會多我不是很清楚我現在一時間查不出來可能大家可以看一下所以行政院大家聽好像很大但是行政院事實上他也還是要交辦各部會才能處理事務不是只是掛一個行政院三個字事情就會直接解決所以我是很"},{"start":4580.639,"end":4595.914,"text":"誠意的 務實的 懇請各位委員朝著要把事情做好的方向爭取原住民族人朋友包括平埔族原住民朋友的權益的部分大家認真的思考一下主管機關到底放在哪裡能夠把事情做好 謝謝謝謝 蔣惠委員 紅蘇早委有請"},{"start":4603.84,"end":4628.537,"text":"其實大家講了很多可是我在這邊我還是必須要再說一下我們現在處理的我們台灣基友的原住民族跟現在平埔族我們今天這一個的判決他判決我認為他解決的只是基因上的問題他的DNA是流了什麼的血要去解決這個問題"},{"start":4630.384,"end":4648.82,"text":"但我們今天要解決的不只是這個喔我們除了解決基因上的問題之外它的文化傳承它的什麼這些東西我們有沒有考量在裡面如果你要單純解決基因認同然後去保障它這個問題好解決"},{"start":4650.56,"end":4665.568,"text":"但整個平埔族的文化或什麼的這個是要不要去保留?我跟你講你有基因是沒有用的你要有文化要有什麼的這個族群才能夠長長久久你基因很容易被同化"},{"start":4666.528,"end":4684.816,"text":"那我們也必須要承認平埔族是在台灣是很早就在這邊的他的基因其實有一部分已經被很多同化了我們台灣人有一句話其實平埔族的基因你說你要找到"},{"start":4695.322,"end":4704.909,"text":"百分之百的你是在台灣你其實我不知道有沒有啦但我們今天要解決的不是只有這個基因的認同"},{"start":4706.007,"end":4732.586,"text":"你如果要單純從基因你根本齁跟原住民族是不一樣的概念跟我們現在台灣既有的這很多族這是不一樣的概念我要先提醒大家這個概念完全不同那再來平埔族的文化什麼的我們要如何去保存如何去這才是我們今天的我認為啦要解決平埔族群的最重要的核心點是在齁他的文化他的的什麼"},{"start":4733.266,"end":4759.277,"text":"那它的文化什麼的我覺得啦大家不用拘泥在說這個主管機關或什麼的我覺得啦如果單純行政院要去行政院只是一個督導的你在上面弄一個委員會或什麼去督導這個各部會能夠做得更好是目前比較可行的啦那你"},{"start":4760.487,"end":4780.302,"text":"你如果要在行政院要再用一個什麼平埔族的委員會另外一個類似原民會的組織我認為不切實際啦這個也做不到啦所以我覺得大家要思考一下啦那當然原民會平埔族我相信你們"},{"start":4781.862,"end":4795.717,"text":"應該多多少少有了解啦但跟現有的原住民不管是幾個族我覺得那個概念是完全不一樣的那你們反而現階段要在原民會裡面你們要先用出"},{"start":4797.299,"end":4811.617,"text":"一個我看你們是要觸摸什麼的一個三級單位要來專責這個平埔族的我覺得這個是目前短暫最好的辦法大家思考一下大家想一下"},{"start":4812.912,"end":4822.395,"text":"好 謝謝 這個我們剛剛在座的各位委員都已經講過一輪然後我看那個我看我們那個主委筆記已經一大堆了剛剛我們再補充一下然後我們先讓園民會那個回答吧我補充一下其實我也同意剛剛草匯委員說的只是呢我們我記得在113年的時候園民會組織法第三條我們在修的時候我們其實就希望園民會的主委能夠兼政務委員"},{"start":4834.798,"end":4860.692,"text":"的原因呢就是那個就是原民會要跨很多部會嘛但是就很遺憾就沒有通過啊當時你們沒有支持啊對不對好所以如果是這樣子大家可以思考因為這樣的問題大家來思考這樣我覺得也是好事好嗎謝謝這我也補充一句以前只有單獨原民會如果現在要把貧富卜族放進去其實他兼政務委員我覺得是OK的啊"},{"start":4861.826,"end":4867.767,"text":"喔不錯至少我們開始有一點點共識了這樣蠻好的來我們先請鄭村委員說明一下"},{"start":4872.214,"end":4897.844,"text":"各位首先針對這個主管機關的部分那當時我們主要是考量兩點第一點就是說在憲判17裡面他有特別提到就是說現在這個所謂的平埔族群他是屬於憲法徵修條文第10條第11項第12項所講的原住民族那按照原民會的組織法其實原民會他主要主責的任務就是統合原住民族政策然後保障原住民族權利跟執行原住民族事務"},{"start":4898.905,"end":4914.581,"text":"所以當時我們認為說就在這整個行政院的體制底下負責原住民族政策的負責憲法第十條第十一項第十二項整個原住民族權力保障的機關就是園民會所以當時我們就把這個主管機關定為園民會這是第一點說明"},{"start":4916.463,"end":4943.385,"text":"那第二點說明就針對王美惠委員有特別提到就是說平母族群進來之後我們的機關組織要如何調整以資源要如何去挹注到這個平母族群身上這個部分我們也是參考這個111年有兩個憲法判決它是針對原住民身份分別是第4號跟第17號其實這兩個憲法判決它都有一個特徵就是說像第4號它就特別提到就是說"},{"start":4944.425,"end":4967.81,"text":"原住民身份跟他所想的優惠措施他並不是理所當然就是說可以直接牽連在一塊的那到了第17號他其實是寫得更清楚他是直接寫說有關這個平埔原住民族群的這個權利是要考量他的這個歷史條件並且斟酌國家的資源另一法律定制他就寫得更清楚他可能不會跟現行的原住民會完全一樣"},{"start":4968.53,"end":4989.963,"text":"他是按照這個平埔族群的實際需求跟他的社會狀況來決定他的權益保障的實質內涵所以在這樣的前提之下我們行政院辦做了幾個設計針對平埔族群未來的權益他做了幾個設計第一個設計就是我們在因為我們在徵詢這個平埔族群的意見的時候他們有提到就是說"},{"start":4991.303,"end":5013.014,"text":"個人權利可以等但是集體權利不能等集體權利就包含了語言文化這個因為他們認為說語言文化不在了的話他們的族群就滅絕了所以我們在我們的院版的第22條我們就特別規定在本法通過之後呢平母族群一旦取得身份之後他就馬上適用原住民族語言發展法跟原住民傳統智慧創作保護條例這是第一個設計"},{"start":5014.074,"end":5034.969,"text":"那第二個設計就是說針對其他的權利包含就是說憲法徵修條例第四條第十一項第十二項所列舉的這個各項權利我們就會進行這個資源的這個盤點進行這個平母族群社會經濟生活的這個一個基本的調查所以在我們的第四條裡面有特別規定就是說我們要定期舉辦針對平母族群去舉辦這個社會經濟文化的這個調查根據這個調查結果去設計符合這個平母族群的這個權利"},{"start":5042.854,"end":5069.475,"text":"所以未來這整個機關組織的這個組社跟這個資源的盤跟這個資源的挹注他會按照這樣的一個狀況去逐步的去落實那另外就是我們也知道說平滸族群他也不會第一時間就馬上說98萬個人都要來登記應該是逐年可能第一年10萬個人第二年又增加一些人所以他資源的投注也是按照這樣一個人口的增加去逐步做調整先做以上的說明來 主委謝謝"},{"start":5074.962,"end":5100,"text":"謝謝各位委員那最主要這個行政院已經設立延民會作為原住民的整個政策的統合機關那平埔原住民族群它本來就是原住民那本來就是應該是原住民的事務委員會來做一個來做一個整個的統籌那當然我們還是建議拜託委員就是採用這個行政院的這個版本"},{"start":5102.242,"end":5118.293,"text":"因為這也是最大的一個公約數了為免這個又跌闖嫁污齁我覺得就是說建議就是說因為平埔原住民族確實是我們自己原住民族我們必須人民會擇武旁貸啦齁那是不是是建議來採用原來的這個行政院的提案好 謝謝"},{"start":5120.354,"end":5146.711,"text":"我看大家問題很多你回答好像有點精簡其實我幫這個我們在內黨委員講一下不管是把主管單位變成行政院或者是要成立新的委員會不外乎八個字嘛就拉高層級增加資源嘛對不對我們現在政府端雖然希望大家以院版為母版這我們都非常尊重但請問我們原民會到底有沒有什麼針對拉高層級跟增加資源的規劃你不能講我們比較容易達成共識啦好不好我跟謝謝主席我跟委員報告齁這個"},{"start":5149.525,"end":5166.876,"text":"有就是說平埔屬於平埔原住民進來之後這個經費支援的拉高這是必然的那這個不是原民會的責任這是整個就是國家要考量所有的這個他們的整體的這個盤點支援的時候要用這邊來協助"},{"start":5168.197,"end":5183.347,"text":"不是說這個不是只有園民會一個會就能解定因為你增加了這麼多人不管是文化啦 語言啦一些預算一定會增加嘛一定會增加那當然園民會的預算就必須要增加啊那這個部分我想這個我們會跟縣裡面 縣也知道這個狀況這個部分我想要做這樣的說明 謝謝"},{"start":5191.052,"end":5200.258,"text":"好 請問各位還有沒有想法補充好 高清委員主委 你很有信心耶哇 我這邊聽你真的很有信心我真的是太開心了實際上是如此嗎 不是如此如果真是如此的話那麼今天行政院的版本出來它就應該要有一條寫這些東西啊讓大家放心嘛你現在看到是完全沒有啊"},{"start":5215.447,"end":5236.247,"text":"對不對那只有在第23條的時候就是說三年內要處理掉所有的東西嘛這裡面都沒有講到預算啊那所以就是我坦白說啦今天行政院的版本其實在歷經快要十年這樣提出來還是提出這張版本這個本來就已經要被譴責了啦"},{"start":5237.392,"end":5264.214,"text":"是不是那因為這個憲法法庭的關係所以我們就必須趕快要加快腳步來處理這件事情所以我的建議是這樣好不好那個第二條的部分因為其實整條法律案其實就是第二條跟第二十三條是最有爭議的所以第二大家有爭議我們就先保留第二條好不好然後呢我們繼續往下好嗎因為因為真的是有時間的限制"},{"start":5264.634,"end":5290.491,"text":"好 謝謝高經委 正有此意那大家聽 我剛剛聽大家都說好好不好那我們第二條先保留 我們往下走 可以嗎好 第二條要保留來 第三條好像這個我們因為我手上有一份這個原住民族委員會有個條文對照表啦那他好像有講這個引用的部分到底憲法針對條文是幾項幾款嘛好像有一個引用的狀況我們是不是先請那個園民會說明一下"},{"start":5294.13,"end":5310.425,"text":"坐著講沒關係坐著講我想這部分是行政院版的物質所以我們應該是委員賴慧如跟徐慧文的提案是正確的是第四條第一項第二款好所以看引用的部分有物質嘛"},{"start":5311.836,"end":5333.331,"text":"應該是第四條第一項第二款嘛一項二款嘛請問在場委員是不是大家都反覆確認過了好不好所以是按照賴慧園委員版本通過因為其他都一樣嘛對不對好那我們第三條的部分我們照賴慧園委員版本通過好第四條請問大家有意見嗎"},{"start":5336.206,"end":5353.847,"text":"沒有因為各提案條文內容相同那我們就照院版通過可以嗎好第五條請問大家有意見嗎沒有同樣因為各提案條文內容相同我們就採用按照行政院院版通過第六條請問大家有意見嗎請林議員"},{"start":5358.627,"end":5378.845,"text":"謝謝主席 在這一條我們想針對審查基準提出修正動議我們有看到在草案第五條 它說評估民族合定是要該民族的語言、習俗、傳統等文化特徵至今仍然存續而第六條是指出 至今仍然存續之審查基準"},{"start":5381.147,"end":5397.228,"text":"那我認為說在西拉雅原住民身份案這個這則憲判的他的那個第26段憲判書裡頭第26段他有提到說未符合憲法徵修條文特與保障原住民族文化等之意旨"},{"start":5398.189,"end":5415.799,"text":"就原住民組織意義及保護範圍其認定應避免反於歷史事實國際保護原住民族潮流而施足過度嚴格所以應做較寬鬆的認定重點大法官就是說要"},{"start":5416.559,"end":5431.892,"text":"不能過度嚴格所以本席認為說在審查基準應給予寬鬆的這個看待所以我提出這則修正動議就是要把憲判理由書的這段文字加到第二項那目的當然就是要讓判決主文"},{"start":5433.073,"end":5459.746,"text":"就是說有這個客觀歷史記錄可積啊然後這樣子的話才能就是把這些主文嘛弄進去然後這樣子的話我們從寬認定比較有一個理由基礎那所以如果後當然啦後續的檢附資料怎麼樣認定你的身份當然不可或缺不過作業上我覺得真的要從寬從簡那技術讓被認定的原住民族獲得認定這樣好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":5461.343,"end":5474.866,"text":"好 謝謝 這手上資料大家有嗎這個剛剛我們林一吉委員 剛剛我們內政委員簽名的修正動議有6 8 12 23 24齁這個確定大家手上都有嗎再照這一份齁 我們看一下好 我們請黃介委員"},{"start":5477.216,"end":5493.576,"text":"好 謝謝我也想要呼應一下怡君委員的這一條因為這個我想要請主委說明一下因為在上一次質詢的時候我有特別問到尤其是這個裡面因為你在申請要成為平埔原住民族的時候你族人必須要自己證明說他是有文化特徵獨特性的"},{"start":5495.018,"end":5501.543,"text":"那這個文化特徵獨特性到底要怎麼去證明我認為主委這邊應該要多加的說明因為其實在你們的立法說明裡面並沒有提到那其實根據憲判的精神確實是應該要從寬然後就是讓比較用讓他可以用鬆綁的方式去認定自己的獨特性而不是到時候你們列出一些有的沒的條件然後反而去阻礙了他們去證明自己說自己是平埔原住民族這件事情"},{"start":5524.781,"end":5542.745,"text":"而且那我還想還有一個疑慮就是說如果假設現在A族他們先去透過他們自己一些方式去認定他有獨特性了那B族其實跟A族有類似的有類似的一些特徵那會不會因此變成你們說因為A族先認定了所以你們B族沒有辦法透過這一條特徵去證明他自己我擔心的是會有這個衝突的問題所以你們應該要說明說接下來你們到底大概審查的方式是什麼"},{"start":5554.088,"end":5570.38,"text":"會不會有彼此競爭或者是你們會去用一些方式把人家篩掉這個是你們要多加說明的謝謝所以我認同這個移經委員的修法的這個修正動議應該要把憲判的這個精神放進去謝謝好謝謝我們請張侯路召委"},{"start":5573.361,"end":5596.404,"text":"我不反對林一錦委員跟黃國健委員的看法不過我是先說第六條我建議如果要我們可以先保留為什麼我要說現有的原住民族的他們的比如說他們的豐年祭什麼他們的過年就跟我們不一樣"},{"start":5597.335,"end":5614.67,"text":"但平埔族大部分的過年就跟我們現在所有的台灣人其實是同樣的但他有保留他的一些不一樣的文化但全台灣我舉一個例子所有人幾乎都有拜地基族吧"},{"start":5615.683,"end":5643.435,"text":"對不對拜地基族其實這就是平埔族文化的延伸啊對不對那如果太今天來放鬆有拜地基族的都可以變成平埔族這一點我們要考量一下因為全台灣每個人都有拜但這真的這個就是平埔族的文化嘛所以你平埔族其實跟台灣這些在台灣生活的既有的文化其實很多都融合在一起"},{"start":5644.878,"end":5663.056,"text":"我不反對喔 我也支持林議警委員這個看法但如何去判定 如何去什麼我覺得我們要多多思考不然你到時候你到時候2350萬人齁我跟你講大概1800萬齁有敗地基組的都是平埔族喔"},{"start":5664.871,"end":5685.781,"text":"我們在立法也要考量這一點所以我建議這條保留我認同林議員的看法但我們要再思考一下 我覺得保留其實我也同意洪祿委員所說的我相信剛剛洪祿委員所說的 其實大家也都"},{"start":5686.661,"end":5706.689,"text":"清楚知道我們所擔心的跟我們的看法那我就請園民會來回應一下目前我們最後兩族認定一個是拉魯瓦一個是嘎那嘎那夫對不對那是不是按照我們現在第六條的第一第二來做認定回復他們的身份"},{"start":5707.429,"end":5728.268,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話那個事實上 移情委員的修正動議的那一項其實呢 我們是不是不要放在法律裡面我們就把它放在附帶決議裡面然後讓這樣的精神也可以進去以上我的建議 謝謝好 這個粉絲也是同意 原民會這個來做一下說明好不好 來 請"},{"start":5730.743,"end":5747.333,"text":"首先說明就是說林警委所提的這個修正動議的第三這個第三項修正動議它部分的文字是跟第四條剛剛已經通過了第四條的第二項是有部分文字是一樣的就是說避免防禦歷史適時及國際保護原住民族潮流"},{"start":5748.113,"end":5760.59,"text":"那當然我們理解就是說這個修正都營它主要的目的是希望就是說因為平母族群過去400年因為它是它很多文化特徵已經消失了所以它希望就是說應該要做比較寬鬆的認定"},{"start":5762.594,"end":5786.258,"text":"那但是如果說做這個修正動議我們會建議就擺在第十條因為這第十條是在審查整個皮姆族群的民族認定的時候第十條是一個比較程序性的規範那在這程序裡面有一個比較實質性的要求就是說在審查的過程當中應該要遵照這個修正動議的原則可能擺在第十條會因為這個不只是針對這個文化的審查"},{"start":5786.858,"end":5803.56,"text":"甚至後面的這個歷史特徵等等的應該都歷史特徵或是維持族群認同甚至是客觀歷史紀錄等等的他可能都會適用這樣的一個原則這是第一個部分那第二個部分高經緯有特別詢問就是說當時阿魯阿根、橄欖谷是不是"},{"start":5804.401,"end":5831.936,"text":"的審查的過程是不是也跟第六條的過程一樣確實我們當時雖然說並沒有明文的規定但是在審查的過程當中我們也是經過了委託學者調查調查的內容大體上就是他們的語言是不是存在他們的習俗是什麼有哪些傳統有哪些文化特徵等等甚至他們的生活領域等等的都做了一個調查之後當作一個佐證的基礎報到行政院去核定所以基本上我們當時過去從9組到16組都是依循這樣的程序去做認定的"},{"start":5834.073,"end":5850.806,"text":"好 我們請紅路召委補充一下我覺得啦齁剛這處長他講的這個有一個觀點我非常不認同那如果你們原民會用這種的方式來處理這個問題我覺得你們會出很多的問題他剛說平埔族很多文化消失了"},{"start":5857.694,"end":5883.425,"text":"我的觀點跟你完全不一樣是後來的移民被平埔族同化了他沒有消失是我們後來的移民你跟著被他同化了他的文化還在你們現在應該要分的兩個很清楚被同化現在全台灣很多的習俗文化什麼的哪一些是本來就是平埔族的只是"},{"start":5884.747,"end":5899.129,"text":"後來的移民完全被同化了然後還有一些特別的族群平埔族裡面特別的族群他們還保留原來更傳統的文化那些他沒有同化後來的人你這個歷史觀點跟這個立法的精神"},{"start":5899.87,"end":5919.117,"text":"我覺得我跟你完全不一樣那我覺得我看到的是一個歷史的事實那如果你們原民會是用這一種立場來做這件事情我跟你講今天審這個我覺得沒有必要了你們這種觀念是完全不對的林警委員"},{"start":5926.551,"end":5941.063,"text":"謝謝主席我想我因為剛剛有說明當然我這個修正動議是真的想把憲判的精神放在這裡面那當然要保留我也同意如果可以按照這個高薪生"},{"start":5941.764,"end":5958.476,"text":"委員的這個提議就是說辦用附帶決議的形式來展現那這樣子的話是不是更好那如果大家有共識是不是也請原民會擬個那個附帶決議的這個文字出來那大家來檢視如果可以的話是不是可以這樣來處理"},{"start":5959.98,"end":5985.837,"text":"好 我們請曾主委再補充一下尤其剛剛我們洪督召委講的用時尚確實要小心啦因為它其實確實是含化的過程互相影響融在一起嘛對不對 這是本席對這事的了解好 來 請主委好 謝謝委員 謝謝曾委員的這個指教我想我們會做一個就是希望最起碼有一個基本條件我們怎麼認定但是我們是用會有一個來審議會比較採用比較寬鬆的方式"},{"start":5989.64,"end":5999.034,"text":"來認定我們的平埔族群這個部分我們的原則是掌握在這裡因為將來的認定是不是平埔原住民族這不是我們延民會在決定它會有一個審議會他們自己的族自己來選他們的人是不是這個"},{"start":6004.923,"end":6015.232,"text":"比如說我希拉雅是希拉雅一個審議委會來審你是不是希拉雅族群的人是這樣來的所以我想這個部分我們會堅持從寬的一個而且會比較寬鬆的來認定是這樣"},{"start":6023.996,"end":6046.249,"text":"所以我們用附帶決議的方式來處理可以嗎那我們是不是原民會來你這個把精神什麼的用很精準的文字因為也確定嘛剛剛原民會主委有承諾這是政策方向嘛寬鬆是政策方向嘛加上一個附帶決議讓大家更清楚好不好這樣大家比較比較有具體的成果好那條文的部分我們第六條我們還是在照院版條文通過大家有意見嗎"},{"start":6048.211,"end":6070.335,"text":"來 黃路委員請我覺得啦吼第六條其實大家都也沒有太大的反對都有共同的看法啦吼但我覺得附帶決議當然是一個一個方式啦但如果你跟他入法也是一個方式但入法當然是比較嚴謹啦吼我覺得是這樣啦吼那我個人是認為啦這個法"},{"start":6074.605,"end":6095.454,"text":"我認為是一個重要的法案,多討論一兩次我覺得沒有關係所以我覺得第六台要保留,我們也要給人民會一些壓力啊對不對,你附帶決議他們就沒壓力了啊那我覺得要給他們壓力啊,他們剛剛的歷史觀點跟那種主管機關觀點我真的非常不認同,要給他們壓力啊"},{"start":6099.129,"end":6107.311,"text":"好沒關係附帶決定照你啦好不好但沒關係因為第六條反正我們今天就是把它先跑一輪我們再看狀況來做處理好不好那我們第二條一樣先保留可以嗎好再來往下走第七條的部分請問大家有意見嗎因為各提案條文內容相同啊也沒有修正動議嘛對不對那我們就照行政院版本通過可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":6128.328,"end":6134.844,"text":"第八條一樣有喔 我們第八條是不是林議員有修正動議好 我們就請您說明一下吧"},{"start":6135.913,"end":6162.566,"text":"好 謝謝主席這條是有關於原住民族認定的這個歷史記錄那我提出這個修正動議加入一則概括條款在第四款那內容就是申請民族之成員本人或其直系血親尊親屬於其他歷史時期之各項客觀證據有足以證明其屬於台灣南島語系民族之執訊"},{"start":6163.746,"end":6186.521,"text":"那理由在於將客觀歷史記錄這個嚴格的限定證據的這個識格性那這種限制實在是太過度這個狹隘那忽略了他許多重要的這個歷史資料來源雖然說第三款學術研究資料或許可以補足這份缺陷可是他能不容易取得這個"},{"start":6188.022,"end":6213.077,"text":"或者是否容易被人民得知這一點是存疑的喔那更何況台灣歷史慢慢長河或許有些人家族就留有幾百年的什麼原住民殖民者交易的這個私文書那這點好像就不一定有第二款或第三款的通格那當然它事業又可以作為一種身份認定的這個證據佐證所以本席主張加入這種蓋鍋屌管"},{"start":6214.358,"end":6240.268,"text":"就是讓更多歷史的證據可以被使用那也同時可以採用與否當然也要看審查會最後的決定那黃昭元前大法官他在憲判同意書結語他有指出只要是國家能夠維持戶籍登記制度並採任日治時期戶口調查部及後來官方紀錄為認定原住民的依據之一"},{"start":6240.808,"end":6262.695,"text":"那所謂原住民組織自我認同原則就必然受到制約那我覺得為了使這份制約有所鬆綁並符合判決理由書的第26段講到的不能過度嚴格所以我覺得將其他足以證明 足之證明的這個客觀歷史記錄納入也才符合大法官意見書的看法那這項動議請大家支持 謝謝"},{"start":6265,"end":6266.481,"text":"如果我們從這個行政院版的第八條來看"},{"start":6283.691,"end":6311.293,"text":"這個第一款第八條的第一項的第一款就說這個從那個日記時期的附集資料附集資料現在的原住民現在的原住民都只有一這個附集資料只有一附集資料 現在的原住民現在既有原住民身份的都只是一日記時代的附集資料"},{"start":6314.689,"end":6338.524,"text":"對 那現在現在要增加這個第二 第三 第四 這是之一喔第八條是之一喔 只要集中之一就可以囉好 我來說齁當初內政部所調查的所謂的98萬人他是一第一款而已喔他只是一第一款 附體資料"},{"start":6340.256,"end":6368.225,"text":"日記時代的他們估算算出來是不是估算算出來就98萬耶所以如果再加上二款三款四款那就更多更多這個是我們必須去思考的我們必須去思考因為這個未來誰都沒有辦法認定了誰呢就審議會就是自己決定就剛剛跟尊主委講的嘛"},{"start":6368.757,"end":6396.585,"text":"CIR組就成立一個CIR組了就是所謂的專家寫者嘛一定是這樣誰有那個去那個去考古人沒有辦法就專家寫者所以這個部分這個是必須去思考也就是必須思考這個憲法判決裡面所考量的所以在這樣的一個情形之下就會衍生到我剛才講的"},{"start":6398.064,"end":6425.445,"text":"在一個機關裡面然後不同的不同的這個認定的方式然後不同的權益就會有這個因為我自己是老公務員當久了我才會說才會說成立一個自己的機關然後自己的立委自己的議員相關的權益的爭取我都提啊憲法申修條我也提了"},{"start":6427.641,"end":6436.669,"text":"平埔原住民的立法委員我也提了我也提案了平埔原住民的議員直轄市議員 縣議員這樣的話這個整個整體會有一貫性這個是一個我才會有這樣的一個建議以上來 委員"},{"start":6449.864,"end":6471.222,"text":"主席,在這裏我認為我們想這個法律上雖然是他們的平埔族說什麼我們小時候說我們族歸宗讓他們知道他們是原住民但是也要有一個限度啦你如果沒有一個限度到最後你說去認定來的時候到目前為止我們查的差不多九十"},{"start":6477.807,"end":6483.052,"text":"九十八萬人,如果這樣下去,我相信八五萬人也有可能所以這種我們再討論一下,因為我認為民主歸宗本來的一貫住民,本來就要讓他回來但是你看看的時候,我認為這個問題是很大的"},{"start":6502.349,"end":6518.921,"text":"所以說主委你們的單位要審慎去評估一下以上好 我們是不是先請原住民委員會說明一下來 請針對第八條修正動議提供一下這個官方的意見 有請"},{"start":6525.956,"end":6550.671,"text":"那當然就是這個修正動議裡面的文字它其實有跟這個憲判的文字有一些就是說它把這個各項客觀證據把它納進來那當然在憲判時期裡面它的文字其實是以日治時期的文字為主就是說註記為熟評者它是判斷標準之一那當然這樣的一個也會延伸到就是說可能清朝甚至說和治時期的一些客觀證據都會把它"},{"start":6551.471,"end":6576.393,"text":"都會把它納入進來那當然這個部分這個方向我們基本上是表示肯定那但是就是要怎麼樣去做證明這件事情我們可能他的一些操作操作上的一些方式我們必須要再去做一些思考需要再去做一些思考是一個怎麼樣的思考法請問各位還有沒有什麼意見要補充的嗎針對第八條修正動議的部分"},{"start":6578.39,"end":6598.722,"text":"我覺得保留啦保留但保留前我還是要請這個園民會目前現在還是我跟你講方向大家都是認同但如何去定義如何去有一個標準你們園民會我是不是這樣子你們目前手頭上有多少的貧苦豬"},{"start":6600.103,"end":6622.993,"text":"他們的文化,他們的資料,然後什麼的你送一份給我們內政委員會,讓我們看嘛也看你們到底有沒有認真去做這件事情嘛你們明明到現在連平埔族的文化你們都沒有掌握我們來定這些以後只是更多的事情沒辦法解決啊你應該給我們一份這個資料啊"},{"start":6626.462,"end":6639.352,"text":"好那我們第八條先保留可以嗎好謝謝來第九條沒有修正動議大家都長得一樣請問大家有人有意見嗎沒有那我們照願滿通過OK嗎好謝謝第十條第十條好這個提案條好像有一些"},{"start":6650.97,"end":6673.213,"text":"落差對不對然後我們網美會委員有提修正動議這條主要在討論這個審議委員會嘛審議會審議會到底的人數門檻到底是什麼樣子好不好大家行政院提案跟委員提案有一些若干的落差還有我們新增的修正動議請大家一併參酌來請問第十條大家有沒有什麼特別要補充的"},{"start":6673.954,"end":6676.416,"text":"來 請國民會委員主席 在這裡我會提出這個意見 我是覺得說我們的規定是11人以上 但是那個"},{"start":6686.035,"end":6688.736,"text":"以下的人我們都沒有去立定所以我參考文化及各個單位我以23人以下因為我覺得要有一個限制才對不然這樣寫說應該11人以上"},{"start":6708.341,"end":6734.773,"text":"這樣 我覺得 我們的生活這樣還不好但是 我覺得說我們尊重提案跟行政院說一人一雙謝謝好 這次把委員會成員的上下線就寫出來了嘛11人到23人 對不對這是網美會委員修正動議的精神請問大家對於這樣子的說法來 請張宏祿召委"},{"start":6742.407,"end":6754.977,"text":"這個文美會委員的那部分我是沒有意見但第十條這樣子寫我越看越覺得好像不夠完善你這些邀請專家學者組成審議委員會"},{"start":6760.815,"end":6789.188,"text":"這些專家學者他是有準博的不只是權力耶我講句難聽一點的算或不算都在他手上耶對啊我覺得如果只這樣寫不對耶你只有你沒有其他的防弊條款耶我覺得這一條沒有防弊條款耶那專家學者"},{"start":6790.188,"end":6802.952,"text":"也不見得他每個都很清楚拼譜族的文化那人家他有這些相關的條件可以申請的你就只有這樣子哇這樣子我覺得這個專家學者"},{"start":6806.16,"end":6821.466,"text":"你一個身份的認定就你這幾個人認定他的身份哇 他比法官還大捏他比誰都還大捏我覺得這一條是不是大家再思考一下應該要有防弊條款捏 不應該就這樣子對啊"},{"start":6824.485,"end":6848.465,"text":"好 原民會說明一下吧你們那個審議委會的組成齁政策邏輯是什麼你們本來預估的人數是什麼然後執行的模式是什麼好不好原民會做一下補充說明好這部分我們當時參考就是原住民族從9族到16族我們在執行過程當中我們在做委託研究之後就會召開這樣的一個審議會那大體上也是邀請這個專家學者來組成這個會議去審查"},{"start":6852.468,"end":6866.564,"text":"那我們做出設計這個條文它其實我們在處理不同的族群的時候是會找不同的審議會的委員因為曾如張委員剛才有提到的就是說其實不是每位委員研究評估組的委員他一定每一組都熟悉"},{"start":6867.225,"end":6892.134,"text":"所以我們會專門針對那一組去做一個量身定做一個審議會然後去找比較熟悉這個族群的這個學者專家或者是一些民間人士去參與這個審議所以當時會把審議會定為11人以上主要也是考量就是說也希望有多一點的人來協助那在審議會之前我們其實會也是一定會先做一個委託研究委託研究之後是當作一個審議會在審查的一個基礎資料"},{"start":6893.354,"end":6910.992,"text":"那審議會的決議它是提供給原民會單座就是要呈報行政院核定他的民主的一個基礎的資料所以我們這個審議會審查通過之後我們就會把這個決定報到行政院去做核定但是程序是這樣 單座的設計是這樣主席"},{"start":6915.129,"end":6919.393,"text":"來 請王美鳳委員主席 其實這裏面的內容 剛才張鋒夫早晚說的說11人醫生 23人醫學 大家都沒有意見"},{"start":6930.544,"end":6944.86,"text":"是現在你專家要來研議他平埔族是不是他是平埔族的人你的官族你的園民會人是有參加或不參加"},{"start":6946.461,"end":6958.59,"text":"他的官署名平部署的代表是不是可以參加因為這個參加這個專業的時候說實在依依的認定耶到現在我們好高興的是說你請專家是他什麼調的他什麼專業來請的啦"},{"start":6969.858,"end":6974.744,"text":"是幾個幾個,我剛才主委所說的說,你要做原住民的平府主,就是以平府主,他們來賓的人來認定,如果這樣下去,你如果請專家來,這樣就不省事了,以上"},{"start":6993.363,"end":6998.027,"text":"因為我覺得第十條這樣看起來原民會你們其實是有一些疏漏的地方那我認為就是你看因邀請相關領域的專家學者組成審議委員會那請問一下這些相關領域的專家學者是誰你怎麼領聘他的標準是什麼"},{"start":7016.002,"end":7032.045,"text":"是不是你要在最後一項裡面是說要另一辦法定之就是你要聘請這些相關領域的專家學者他的背景啊他到底的專業程度是什麼因為你只有講說要邀請相關領域的專家學者來要組成審議這些人但是他的權力太大了他到底夠不夠專業你沒有一個那個聘聘這些專家學者的辦法這就很奇怪"},{"start":7044.207,"end":7070.372,"text":"那是誰邀請是你園民會邀請你園民會認定他是相關領域的專家就邀請他來嗎這個是有一點疏漏的地方啦是不是請大家可以討論一下是不是在最後一項裡面可以加一下好 政務組我只想請教這個園民會平埔族你們現在認為平埔族裡面到底有幾族啊"},{"start":7073.618,"end":7099.903,"text":"我想請問一下這個問題因為目前至少有10組至少啦你們認為只有10組嗎其實還有其他的組就是學者研究大概有到15組的我跟你講就我所認知的也有不知道哪個組我忘了只剩一個人會講他們原來的主語"},{"start":7101.332,"end":7110.46,"text":"對不對 那人家文化學者有特別去錄音 去收集他這個那一個人 那一組你去哪裡找專家來給我看我想請問啊所以我提出這個就是 這個問題是有複雜的喔不是你們單純想的喔 對不對所以這個問題 我認為這裡沒有防弊不對啦 應該要"},{"start":7131.923,"end":7146.616,"text":"有一些族群就像我剛剛舉的只剩一個人會講族語對不對 你要怎麼去認定那一族只剩他一個人喔其他的都沒有喔那一個人可以成族嗎"},{"start":7147.955,"end":7166.853,"text":"如果專家學者說你這只有一個人我不認為你這個是那問題怎麼辦我今天提出來的是這個問題所以我覺得第10條他們裡面院版這個我認為寫的也不夠完完善啦保留你們再去改來啦你們再去改來給我們看啦好"},{"start":7171.653,"end":7195.662,"text":"那個其實我覺得相關領域四個字太模糊了啦因為你看以文資審議會對不對他要寫專家學者民間團體代表應具備該審議會所設文化資產類別之學術專長或實務經驗然後才人數什麼什麼什麼他其實要很明確的界定就是說我到底要具備什麼樣的專業技能或者是某一些什麼樣的身份條件你才可以成為審議會的成員那另外因為這個每一組都有可能會有申請案嘛"},{"start":7195.962,"end":7224.556,"text":"那我們現在園民會裡面到底有沒有足夠的學者專家這我是用請教的心態如果不夠他會不會變成同一群人決定非常多事情的狀況我覺得園民會也做一下功課提供一些相關的數據一定要讓大家比較放心好不好那方法上到底是把它直接寫出來哪些領域或者是用高級委員的想法就是說我們另一辦法定制可以讓它比較完整那個辦法相關的方向要先出來那麼這一點要通過的機會比較大所以我們今天還是先做保留我們請園民會再補充一些資料可以嗎"},{"start":7225.543,"end":7230.55,"text":"好 謝謝那麼第四條我們保留11條請問大家有意見嗎各條長得一樣那我們照約滿通過可以嗎可以謝謝12條我們"},{"start":7239.588,"end":7265.404,"text":"民進委員 薛徹東一對不對好 請請他說明謝謝謝謝主席這條我想這個限期登記喔不管是學界或者是這個律師界其實都有人批判那就連上次在巡打的時候也有多位有提出質疑那當時主委也有回覆喔這個本席說這個五年錄喔不夠是不是要延長到十年或者十五年或二十年都可以再討論"},{"start":7266.585,"end":7290.877,"text":"那所以本席在這裡我就提出一個跟賴慧雯版本一樣的修正就延長到20年不過我想另外新增一項就是說公告期間這個屆滿後仍然可以得由該組或個別申請人以書面續名理由向主管機關申請補充認定程序主管機關也可以斟酌其情形予以受理"},{"start":7291.497,"end":7306.281,"text":"那我們可以看到就連這個限期登記黃昭元前大法官也在這個憲判的協同意見書有提出質疑他說如果未來再有這個登記期間的限制讓原住民沒有辦法補登記的時候憲法法典還是會有權審查"},{"start":7308.322,"end":7308.422,"text":"那謝謝 以上"},{"start":7332.628,"end":7354.98,"text":"有關於這個民族成員身份認定要件的公告時間現在有個五年的版本修正綜藝跟大陸委員是二十年的版本請問各位委員針對這個年限長度因為我看我們這個園民會的意見是尊重大院審議結果園民會對於這件事情的想法你要不要再補充說明一下就尊重就尊重二十年"},{"start":7359.122,"end":7366.767,"text":"延長五年這是沒有...都是一樣的嘛對不對是前面第一個到底要公告幾年嘛來 委員主席 抱歉在這齁我...我覺得說主委不是尊重啦是要你們有作為是覺得做完 跟我們時間不夠跟我們演那現在又還沒演十年要說二十年你就說尊重這樣就都白爛啦又沒辦法完成啦"},{"start":7388.302,"end":7392.284,"text":"你也要說出你做主委對平埔族要如何協助讓他們能夠立法,能夠認主歸宗跟你說二十黨尊重,這樣你就開罵了今天不知道大家剛開會,開到現在開會是應該開的沒錯,但是在裡面聽出來說"},{"start":7414.412,"end":7422.564,"text":"主委你說二十天尊重,我聽起來覺得是做一個主委,我們說實在的還不應該啦,以上黃副主委我覺得啦齁"},{"start":7432.251,"end":7455.882,"text":"既然要尊重啦那你20年什麼什麼的我覺得就不用討論了啦但我有一個想法就是說你這一個他是不是平普組的哪一組裡面的他是不是有寄予有這個身份這個什麼的政府沒有權利剝奪他申請為這一個組的一個時間的限制"},{"start":7459.804,"end":7481.205,"text":"你可能有一件事情,一個考古或一個什麼,發現原來這個村莊的人他其實就是一個平埔族的一個後代然後他可能還有保留他們的文化什麼的他如果超過20年了,他可不可以來申請你剝奪了他,我覺得這一條的立法應該是反過來"},{"start":7483.968,"end":7503.277,"text":"我們希望他多少期間內完全申請但如果有新的市政發現的話他還有保留申請的權利我覺得我們的立法精神應該反過來是這樣子才對我不知道主委你的看法黃婕瑋先然後再高菁瑋"},{"start":7505.555,"end":7524.783,"text":"好那我也是認為說其實主委你真的要做點功課啦因為其實前面每一條針對各個委員的意見你應該要有你們的立場然後你們說你們做了多少的研究所以在這邊給出一個足夠立論的依據才對啊啊每個都說尊重尊重"},{"start":7526.744,"end":7533.533,"text":"要執行的是你們耶所以我覺得你們這樣子每一條都沒有認真的回覆委員其實大家會覺得你們很敷衍而且真的蠻不尊重今天的會議審查啦那這個我講一下其實我們每個人都是大家都是做好功課來的好不好請你們也做好功課"},{"start":7544.346,"end":7559.525,"text":"你們的版本是寫五年那那會員的版本是寫二十年那我這邊講一下因為其實有一個大法官在憲判十七號裡面的意見書他有特別提到說到底需不需要有年限這件事情這個是你們要回答的"},{"start":7560.226,"end":7587.91,"text":"因为其实他说认为说因为其实像是山地原住民的身份取得身份是没有实现的那平地原住民有那如果这样是不是有如果有一个实现的话是不是有违宪的疑虑这个是你们要在这里解释的啊那到底你应该要回答说到底我们有没有必要设这个年限例如说很多的平埔族群想要证明自己的身份那可能他要追溯的这个登记文件是很久很久以前的"},{"start":7588.57,"end":7592.872,"text":"甚至是日治時期的那這樣子的限制會不會對族人造成負擔嗎那或者是說在這個期限內登記跟他能不能取得原住民身份真的有關係嗎以上這些問題都是你們應該要回答的那還有另外一個就是說如果他在你們的年限之間他還沒有成為成人就是他可能還沒滿20歲那"},{"start":7612.922,"end":7634.84,"text":"那像這些人他沒有辦法自己去登記那是不是就會因此而喪失他登記的條件呢這些其實這些疑慮你們都是要在這邊都先告訴大家的啊而不是說尊重尊重到底要尊重什麼好謝謝高靜委員為了節省時間齁我是覺得我同意張宏祿委員說的啦"},{"start":7635.376,"end":7662.363,"text":"就是說他只要是認定他隨時也都可以進來啊對啊那不要寫時間的限制啊那園民會你們可能去思考一下這個條文要怎麼樣去修會比較好好不好因為你五年十年二十年那種期限是真的很奇怪的一件事情你應該就是說對好不好對我們這個先我們這個先保留然後請園民會修一些那個文字好不好謝謝"},{"start":7664.281,"end":7690.092,"text":"我可以先給園民會的意見就剛剛我們有討論符合前項公告是第二段符合前項公告是民族成員身份認定要件得於公告期間這是關鍵因為得於公告期間內申請所以才有申請期間幾年的問題但我也是認同張召偉跟高進委員的想法也就是說如果你要開放他申請你要有一個時間不是很奇怪嗎所以是不是檢討這個得於公告期間這一句話你要不要拿掉其實就沒有時間的問題了"},{"start":7692.173,"end":7719.947,"text":"那這個東西原名會到時候做一下功課好不好那這條我們就先保留 OK我們到第幾條了 12條請問大家要不要稍微休息一下上個洗手間什麼的對啊 12處理完剛好一半要休息一下嗎 還是要繼續好 繼續好13沒有沒有我問大家我問大家我問大家我如果真的有需要我會喊休息好不好"},{"start":7721.548,"end":7739.413,"text":"好 13條這個大家都一樣 請問大家有意見嗎好 我們照院板通過14條 14條是不是有宣傳動力 我管覺得沒有14條請問大家有意見嗎沒有 我們照院板通過 謝謝15條請問大家有意見嗎好 我們照院板通過16條請問大家有意見嗎"},{"start":7750.407,"end":7754.19,"text":"沒有 我們照院版通過17條 請問大家有意見嗎好 我們照院版通過18條 請問大家有意見嗎沒有 好 那我們一樣照院版通過後面突然之間很順利喔19條要看一下可以講啦因為都一樣 19條都一樣 OK 那我們照院版通過囉"},{"start":7781.357,"end":7782.637,"text":"20條都一樣 也沒有宣稱動議那我們照院版通過21條這個都是一些技術上的東西嘛對不對 技術的條文嘛好 我們照院版通過 可以嗎好那個林益菊委員的版本裡面有第22條對不對好 我們現在請林益菊委員說明一下"},{"start":7809.667,"end":7831.407,"text":"好 謝謝主席這條我是一個新增條文那我內容參考是原住民身份法第11條那我認為這條應該要比照原住民身份法來寫入那原因是實際上戶籍登記可能有登記錯誤啊 遺漏或者其他原因那誤指誤登記為原住民身份者"},{"start":7832.428,"end":7839.512,"text":"需要被補正所以確實需要戶政事務所在知悉後書面通知當事人進行撤銷或更正登記或者由當事人向戶籍所在地的戶政事務所來申請查明並為撤銷或更正的登記我在這裡要補充說明的是說像我們台南市政府已經進行熟的身份註記很久了那也會特別註記評普族名的族別"},{"start":7857.902,"end":7874.659,"text":"那截至今年六月底以前台南市已經有八千零四十五人主動來登進行評普族族別或熟的這個身份的註記那根據了解就在蘇焕志前縣長的時代就有更多的族親來登記過"},{"start":7875.78,"end":7901.133,"text":"那只是縣市合併後大家沒有再來登記第二次那2008的新聞報導台南縣政府那時候的統計日治時期戶口調查部這個種族藍註記為熟或者是貧就是貧苦族的貧那這個貧苦族的總人數是兩萬兩百四十八人那所以戶政機關應有辦法去清查"},{"start":7901.673,"end":7907.466,"text":"並通知相關人來進行登記或更正登記所以我希望這一條可以獲得大家支持 謝謝新增條文"},{"start":7913.118,"end":7939.495,"text":"對 因為我們本來的跟這個身份登記的版本大概就21條嘛就只是講說講說護身事務所怎麼怎麼來做處理登記後發生效力嘛但是林盈菊委員新增的第22條是因為說擔心有登記錯誤或輸入的狀況看怎麼來處理來 請高清書的委員請問一下園民會如果沒有多這個這一條是不是可以處理剛剛林盈菊委員所講的這個問題"},{"start":7941.036,"end":7952.643,"text":"第二個就是登記錯誤的人他如果今天不來處理的話要怎麼處理因為它是個人的問題所以我現在請原民會來回答一下不好意思因為剛剛我也一直在看第17條的規定那其實這個都是姓名的規定"},{"start":7970.578,"end":7998.278,"text":"都是因為姓名然後去取得這個不管是原住民族或現在是平埔族的身份那我覺得你們原民會幾乎就是抄現有的東西來啊你們就是抄原有的啊但不要忘了一件事情我剛一直在看17條很多平埔族的他早就都用漢名了"},{"start":7999.856,"end":8019.187,"text":"幾乎都是漢民了對不對那你用現在用原住民的這所有的族群的思考邏輯去定這些我覺得是不對的你們的邏輯就不對了你看喔你17條的第一款"},{"start":8021.588,"end":8040.355,"text":"他說依15條規定取得平埔原住民族身份後因並更姓名自未符合該規定那你15條裡面你這邊就是說取用父或母所屬平埔原住民族群之傳統名字"},{"start":8043.189,"end":8066.877,"text":"欸那你現在意思是說你所有的平埔族的族群你如果都要符合平埔族的你要回歸你的身份證上你除了有漢的漢人的這個文字漢人的姓名之外也要有平埔族的姓名喔要跟現在所有原住民一樣喔欸我覺得這個邏輯很奇怪欸我覺得這個委員大家要思考一下欸蛤"},{"start":8071.687,"end":8099.978,"text":"我知道第三款是從具平埔族原住民身份之父或母之姓嘛那你現在我們台灣的這個身份證這個你要從母姓從父姓你長大之後你也可以改喔你不是跟以前一樣一輩子都不能改喔你也可以改喔那他如果依照這個我們的相關的法律他要去改那他有沒有喪失平埔族的身份他連姓都改了捏"},{"start":8101.121,"end":8127.782,"text":"對不對那你這樣會不會有問題我剛剛 大家一直在念我一直在看15條 17條對 你會出現這個問題喔你未來我只要從他爸爸可能是有平埔族原住民的身分對不對那他本來就是 以血統來我剛剛講的 以DNA來講的話他本來就是平埔族的身分了"},{"start":8128.522,"end":8143.601,"text":"但依我們現在的法令可以規定他可以從母姓他一從母姓他就沒有了喔就沒有平埔族的身份喔這樣對他來講是不對的喔他沒有受到保障喔所以各位委員我們要思考一下這個問題喔"},{"start":8146.564,"end":8156.816,"text":"洪祿委員我是覺得沒有問題啦例如我齁其實在技術性上是可以的我叫高津我還是把我爸爸的姓媽媽的姓給留下來嘛"},{"start":8162.824,"end":8185.709,"text":"對所以其實就我的了解我們自己因為一般他是平埔或者是山地原住民或平地原住民他要恢復原住民身份的時候通常也都會要跟家人討論那家人也希望留下一個畢竟他是有兩個不同的基因存在所以這個問題可能會比較沒有問題"},{"start":8190.311,"end":8206.649,"text":"就我們現在3D原住民回復原住民的身分或PD原住民的身分所以大家就很容易看四個字的就清楚知道就比如說某某某譬如說我們園民會裡面也有很多人也是四個名字的那個叫什麼字"},{"start":8211.394,"end":8231.167,"text":"杜璋梅中來來來 傅仲你就是其中之一你也是一個所以其實呢在我們恢復我們身份的時候其實我們絕大部分還是會想要把父或母那個留下來我知道高金委員你說的我懂啦但"},{"start":8232.577,"end":8258.642,"text":"在很多就是平埔族的裡面他其實就是我說後來移民都被同化了但有一點以前我們是慣夫性的很多這個慣夫性我們以前有慣夫性只是現在年輕一輩他不想那以前沒慣夫性是不行的那我們現在還有存在很多慣夫性的"},{"start":8261.46,"end":8271.194,"text":"這個我知道高金素美委員講的但我覺得這個問題未來可能會發生喔所以原住民我只是原民會我只是想要你們你們對這個問題有沒有解決你們有沒有"},{"start":8275.552,"end":8282.181,"text":"你們能保證沒有問題嗎?這樣就好啦我只要你們了其實這個剛剛高經緯有特別強調另外一個問題就是說他要一個族群認同那我們希望原住民的傳統的名字能夠持續的傳承"},{"start":8293.116,"end":8320.875,"text":"這也是在我們原住民要認同自己的族群跟自己的文化語言各方面所以我們在這個裡面的設計上是希望說你要成為原住民可能有一些部分你還是要回到原住民傳統文化慣俗語言這方面來去認同啦我想才會有這個後面但是以現行的所有的這個明智的使用是沒有困擾的啦在實際的事務上是沒有什麼困擾的"},{"start":8323.817,"end":8349.555,"text":"那個傳統名字這個時候還不會用到好我們就先起我們就先從這個復口調查部日記時代的復口調查部我只要拿出復口調查部手翻手由這個不管你現在是什麼姓吶現在你不管姓什麼就可以了"},{"start":8350.865,"end":8378.733,"text":"就可以 所以那個傳統名字那是後面後面後面他要不要改我們沒有強制所以現在只要復國調查部查出來有 熟不管我現在姓什麼我就可以登記了就可以登記了那以後就是如果如果我後來有通婚後來再結婚的話"},{"start":8380.07,"end":8403.797,"text":"結婚的時候不是 就是他的孩子啦不是 就是他的孩子就是他的孩子有跟非原住民沒有原住民身份的結婚的時候他的孩子要從既有父姓還是母姓的那是後面的部分以現在來講他就是這個沒有問題"},{"start":8411.113,"end":8429.572,"text":"我完全認同鄭委員的說法我剛講的就是如果第二代對不對如果依17條的規定他沒有再從這個具有平埔族身份的父或母的姓他可能以17條的規定他就喪失了這個囉"},{"start":8434.126,"end":8457.277,"text":"對,然後剛剛高經委原理說他可以選兩個嘛,一起嘛兩個姓一起嘛,這是一個解決的方法啦但我這樣說比較不好意思啦平埔族的生活文化跟既有我們的這個現有的我們這原住民的這16族或什麼的其實文化是有不一樣的"},{"start":8458.88,"end":8473.126,"text":"其實文化是有不一樣的有慣夫性的 現在又可以有他自己選擇從父從母的我覺得我擔心的是這個未來會不會發生這個問題啊所以我要請教園民會啊這個問題你們認為有沒有問題還是你認為不會發生這點我要請教你們園民會啊"},{"start":8487.792,"end":8507.779,"text":"來那個我分享一下因為我前幾天我接到一個選民服務但是原住民身份一樣是姓名跟身份的那個我覺得真實出現的狀況反而是基層對這個東西的了解不夠因為他就是原住民的爸爸生出小孩然後到底用哪一條登記他是原住民身份結果登記錯了然後到最後是出生證明要撤銷重新登記"},{"start":8508.539,"end":8521.25,"text":"那讓到大家都不太愉快我倒覺得應該在法律上面 法理上面這個名詞的部分應該是沒有問題我想應該是沒有問題但實務執行的宣導其實是不夠這是本席最近剛好觀察也談到這件事來 有沒有什麼要補充"},{"start":8524.219,"end":8549.329,"text":"就115條來看的話其實我們是已經有相當大的一個空間包含就是說取傳統名字或是說他不用改姓只要並列傳統名字或者是要改姓大概這三種類型那可能會比較大的問題就是傳統名字的這個部分就是因為我們知道說確實有些平母族群的傳統名字可能不一定有全部傳承下來"},{"start":8550.069,"end":8579.095,"text":"那當然這個我們原民會也可以協助就是說將來也會協助各族去恢復他們的一些傳統名字因為像現在目前西拉雅族他們已經也開始在做調查了那其他族群我們也會協助他們慢慢把這些傳統名字找回來我個人的覺得啦你第17條的第一款這15條規定取得評估原住民身份後應變更姓名字未符合該項規定我覺得"},{"start":8580.667,"end":8591.71,"text":"這個拿掉就沒有這個問題了他只要取得了你為什麼他改個名字他就喪失身份我覺得你這個拿掉不就問題都解決了我個人的看法我不知道大家的看法來請正天才委員"},{"start":8604.952,"end":8632.508,"text":"第一次登記的絕對沒有問題現在就是說子女子女就是說子女他子女的子女應該是子女的子女以後的那個部分他有時候為了一個什麼權益他出去改改名字嗎改姓改姓名嗎改姓然後他權益取得了之後又改回來"},{"start":8633.635,"end":8659.696,"text":"就是因為有這樣的案例就我們現在的原住民過去有這樣的案例才會有這樣的條文才會有這樣的條文嘛對對對就是這樣我請教一下我請教一下那個原名立委跟原名立委因為我們這個東西我上次處理那個選民服務案之後我自己跟我太太討論一下然後她覺得很奇怪她說照理來講原住民的身份跟名字她為什麼一定是掛鉤的"},{"start":8660.777,"end":8678.164,"text":"他丟了一個這樣子的概念給我所以我也蠻好奇的我們之所以在法條裡面這樣列就是說我一定要有原民身份是基於文化保存嗎還是有什麼樣的目的然後有了這樣子的一個立法邏輯我用請教的心態而不是聽一下大家的意見因為如果說我們在法條制定的時候它也有政策導引的目的也就是說我們鼓勵大家使用"},{"start":8679.004,"end":8698.181,"text":"傳統姓名對不對以利保存文化所以等等等等那我覺得這個條文可能要保留的機會就比較高那如果大家其實比較邏輯上是比較傾向說其實身份可以歸身份名字只是一個附加的或者是沒有絕對掛鉤用意的那也許也許就有另外一點思考的方式我們就聽聽這個主委要不要說明一下"},{"start":8699.509,"end":8715.581,"text":"我這邊請要說明,當時我們會做這個像第15條或是原住民身份法相同的規定主要是因為在現判室,就11年的現判室它裡面有特別提到就是說取得原住民身份必須要有一個認同的表徵或是文化的一些"},{"start":8716.241,"end":8741.838,"text":"文化的一些連結性所以當時我們就採用了這樣的一個方式就是把它當作一個把姓名不然傳統姓名或是跟隨具有原住民身份的父或母之姓當作一個很重要的一個認同的表徵來做這樣的設計我來說明過去原住民身份認定標準還沒有法例的時候"},{"start":8743.123,"end":8758.477,"text":"只有說重複性才可以我們的民法我們的民法說只有重複性所以父親是不是原住民母親是原住民這樣的過去就沒辦法"},{"start":8759.853,"end":8787.009,"text":"所以我在制定原住民因為原住民身份法草案是我提出來的我在當處長的時候這個陳水扁當總統那個張俊雄當這個行政院長我是處長我提出原住民身份法這個因為法例就可以排除民法因為當時的民法就是重複性所以我當初制定原住民身份法的時候"},{"start":8788.206,"end":8815.841,"text":"原住民可以協議父母協議要從父姓還是從母姓排除民法第1059條的規定是當時所以後來民法也跟著我們去改了是這樣所以這個不是有為什麼會做這麼嚴謹的規定就是就是相關的這些資源啊"},{"start":8817.546,"end":8843.076,"text":"還是跟資源有關係政府機關考量的是資源就像我剛才講的為什麼第九屆的時候行政院版本原住民身份法修原住民身份法當初民進黨團沒有把它二讀三讀就是考量很多考量的真的是很多所以這個部分我的建議就是說因為現在的"},{"start":8844.008,"end":8853.751,"text":"原住民他的相關的規定就是現在這樣我們是不是先照這樣那以後如果還有什麼可以再討論我還是要提醒所有委員"},{"start":8860.473,"end":8873.57,"text":"如果原住民族現在各族用這個我覺得完全合乎這個原住民我剛剛一直強調的DNA學童或者是他們的文化習俗我覺得"},{"start":8874.622,"end":8899.922,"text":"沒有問題因為原住民族我們現在所知道的他們命名方式其實是一代傳一代一代傳一代的這樣子下去的但你所有現在齁在台灣的所有的平埔族我認為幾乎就是只有那個姓是傳承的其他都沒有了就只有這樣而已對不對那如果你17條的第一款英齁"},{"start":8902.213,"end":8920.982,"text":"他只要應變更姓名然後他就沒有這個是我認為你們園民會太不認真抄原來的法案這樣子抄過來沒有認真去做事情你們訂出的這一個那你這個以後會損害平埔族很多人的權利喔第一次當然不會的但後來一定會的啦 鄭委員一定會啦"},{"start":8929.266,"end":8954.132,"text":"一定會啦一定會出問題啦一定有問題啦我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":8961.748,"end":8985.385,"text":"所以我在這邊就是說其實時間還有啦我點出了問題來了啦我在這邊 請各位委員我剛所說的 像剛好比較不好意思 剛17條什麼這些是錯了沒關係 都討論我認為這個要討論 我跟你講 就算不要改你們原民會也要給我們所有內政委員一個答案啦 一個說法啊"},{"start":8986.698,"end":9011.394,"text":"對不對 你說服我們 我們就就那個啊 你不能這樣子一個法令就這樣隨隨便便就過啦這我 這狀況比較特別啦因為我們前面跑已經做了宣告 對不對那如果 當然我個人是傾向充分討論所以洪祝昭也提出的意見我是願意尊重但如果要把這一條改為保留我要證得大家在場委員內政委員會委員的同意啦大家有沒有什麼特別的意見嗎"},{"start":9014.721,"end":9037.74,"text":"沒關係 高經委員覺得還OK嗎沒關係好那所以17條嘛好那我們17條一樣保留主要方向啦我們至少剛經過一整輪的討論的時候是洪路召委的意思其實是希望原民會提供比較完整的說法也就是這件事情的政策脈絡邏輯跟配套措施好不好以例後面再來通過OK"},{"start":9039.48,"end":9058.057,"text":"好 那我們就這樣喔 前面我們就不再更動了 好吧好 我重新宣告 實際條我們改成保留好 二十二嘛 對不對因為這是林議警委員的新增條文啦所以看一下這個新增條文的部分戶籍登記錯誤脫漏或其他原因誤登或漏位登者"},{"start":9060.328,"end":9079.245,"text":"當事人戶籍所在地之戶證事務所因於知悉後書面通知當事人為撤銷或更正之登記或由當事人向戶籍所在地之戶證事務所申請查明並為撤銷或更正之登記來 請剛才就請委員會來回應一下沒有這一條是不是也可以處理好 我們回到這一條"},{"start":9091.914,"end":9116.187,"text":"目前就是說這條所規定的事項它其實按照這個戶籍法的現行規定或者是它的相關的執法的規定它其實都是已經可以處理了甚至我們原住民身份法第11條雖然說文字跟這個一樣但是在實務上它其實是其實在做法上是更寬鬆就不一定要在戶籍不一定要在戶籍地所以這個部分我們建議就是說其實應該是可以不用登記"},{"start":9119.349,"end":9142.828,"text":"他的意思就是說 依照現行的法律是OK的你不要增訂這個 他都可以處理啦那就是看要不要增訂啦來 洪祿哲偉這一條我的看法是這樣啦齁你這邊把他寫得很死就是戶籍所在地他等於他所有事情他要回去那裡耶阿他如果在台北上班他就不用回去了你知道"},{"start":9145.219,"end":9161.631,"text":"他們說現行狀況使用是不需要的嘛所以反而他比較方便啦所以你徵地這個可以不需要你這樣更嚴格咧好 好 好 了解好 我問一下李議員你的想法怎麼樣OK OK沒關係 其實覺得已經經過這個"},{"start":9163.835,"end":9185.526,"text":"對 已經提了嘛 然後檢舉委員會也在這邊做了確認 都留下記錄嘛就是一定不會有撤銷等等沒有條文的問題可以處理 而且是全台都可以處理嘛 對不對 好不好是 就是說 就因為我這個是參照這個原住民身分法原住民身分法啦 對啦那如果說這條不需要 就是說因為現行的法令已經可以使用了嘛 那這樣子原住民身分法應該也要檢討 要一併來檢討 對啊齁好沒關係 那另外一半 這邊我們就不堅持了好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":9189.448,"end":9211.18,"text":"我覺得啦在立法說明裡面你們寫一下然後給大家看啦我就寫一下就好了不用入法啦在立法說明裡面要寫清楚啊寫在21條裡面嘛因為21條就談的是登記上司恢復等等好不好我們在21條做立法補充的說明那22條我們就不許處理可以嗎謝謝好現在是院版的22條院版22條請問大家有意見嗎"},{"start":9218.522,"end":9219.949,"text":"來 請鄭天才委員 然後請李懿君委員"},{"start":9223.005,"end":9250.813,"text":"第22條這個我的條文是寫準用準用這個原住民族語言發展法及原住民傳統智慧創作保護條例為什麼會寫準用準用而不是寫適用最主要是因為原住民族語言發展法裡面的條文有特別規定取得原住民的族語認證之後"},{"start":9253.584,"end":9280.102,"text":"就可以有關升學的保障或是原住民行政特考相關的就業的這些規定就可以適用所以這樣的情形之下這個就會在相關的這些措施配套措施都還沒有完成之前直接就去適用的時候就會受到很大的影響我特別要跟大家做一個說明"},{"start":9282.139,"end":9296.191,"text":"現在的原住民跟全國的人就讀大專校宴的出債協力出債協力的落差是30%多"},{"start":9299.713,"end":9316.692,"text":"我們的少於百分之三十幾原住民跟非原住民就讀大專學校校園的這些落差高達百分之三十幾所以在這樣其他的配套措施都還沒有完成之前如果這樣子定的話"},{"start":9318.27,"end":9339.788,"text":"會直接嚴重影響到現在既有原住民身份的原住民的無論是他的就寫的保障或者是他的這些就業的這些保障都會受到很大的影響所以我建議就是用這個準用以上好所以鄭天曉委員提案是用準用然後"},{"start":9347.742,"end":9367.063,"text":"還有沒有委員要補充 請林議員好 這個第22條喔是我的這個動議的第23條 對對對好那那個 這一條齁 那個我是主要是針對就是一個保障語言跟文化的部分加入國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法"},{"start":9367.803,"end":9387.843,"text":"然後是第二項強調評普原住民的個人基本權跟集體權那都要適用這個原基法的保障那第一項修正理由是在說因為國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法這兩部語言跟文資的根本大法不應遺漏在評普原住民族"},{"start":9388.403,"end":9412.257,"text":"尤其是原住民相關的權益保障的條文文字也都有散見在這兩部法的法律當中例如說我們國家語言發展法的第七條第八條 第十條 第十四條跟文字法的第八條 第十三條 第八十五條這些都有 那都相當重要所以我們可以看到說像我舉例像我們台南在地的那個新化口皮國小"},{"start":9412.757,"end":9420.864,"text":"它就是全台灣第一間希拉雅族的實驗小學那有關於這個族語的附贈他們就很積極的在push那所以我覺得這不應該被國家語言發展法去排除一樓那族語的教學跟族語老師的培育也應該適用於國家語言發展法的規定"},{"start":9438.138,"end":9458.235,"text":"那再來就是說像台南在地的那個極被耍的部落那他們的極被耍的希拉雅族的業績也被文化部核定為國家重要民俗活動所以我是認為說文化跟語言的保障都要被這兩部法律來納入保障好 以上"},{"start":9460.801,"end":9484.987,"text":"好 謝謝 來 原民會請說明好 政府做幾個說明第一個部分針對準用或者是適用的這個部分那當時我們會用適用主要是因為就是說像國家語言像原住民族語言發展法裡面可能會涉及到剛才鄭委員所提到的一些優惠措施的部分那那個優惠措施的授意它其實並不是依據這個原住民族語言發展法"},{"start":9485.547,"end":9512.605,"text":"而是依據比如說像原住民教育法或是其他的法規的規範那在那個法規規範的基礎之下然後在原住民族語言發展法裡面特別要求應該要有原住民族語言認證的這樣一個要求所以就是說我們會認為就是說剛才委員所擔憂的就是說可能會因為適用原住民族語言發展法而導致就是說這個原住民族權利受損這個部分可能我們應該是還不會發生這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":9515.807,"end":9534.975,"text":"那另外就是林議員所提到的這個修正動議說的這個國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法的這個部分那國家語言發展法跟文化資產保存法的主管機關是文化部但是據我們了解就是說國家語言發展法他並沒有特別針對特定的族群"},{"start":9535.575,"end":9561.004,"text":"那文化資產保存法也一樣它並不是特別針對特別的族群所以這兩部法律它本來就是所有的族群包含平母族群它也都適用這兩部法律那可能會有差異的部分就是文化資產保存法它有另外授權訂定針對原住民族文化資產的調查研究的這個先行工作我們有特別針對這個部分訂定一個法規命令去特別去扶植這個原住民族的文化資產的保護"},{"start":9562.745,"end":9577.382,"text":"所以這部分是否要增列進去我們可能要請教一下文化部的意見那另外就是第二項所提到的個人跟集體權益的發展的部分要適用直接適用原住民族基本法那這個部分我們在"},{"start":9578.422,"end":9597.914,"text":"這個憲判17裡面他其實是已經有提到就是說有關這個台灣原住民族他是屬於憲法徵求條文所提的這個原住民族那國家自應積極保障他的語言跟文化而且就教育文化等事項與以適當的保障輔助但是要怎麼樣去保障輔助要去"},{"start":9599.375,"end":9600.516,"text":"請問各位委員有沒有什麼補充意見"},{"start":9637.265,"end":9656.516,"text":"不好意思,我再補充一下,因為我剛剛沒有稍微提到,就是說在我的修認動力的第二項,我那邊有提到說要適用於原住民基本法,那其實很多的評普族親都很在意,就是說到底評普原住民能不能適用原籍法,"},{"start":9657.196,"end":9671.929,"text":"那其實很多委員也都有主張原住民就是原住民嘛那不應該被差別的對待所以原基法的直接適用也應該是必須的那我想原基法很多的重要的條文其實包括像說"},{"start":9674.051,"end":9695.258,"text":"一些相關的社福啊或者自然自由的利用啊原住民的基本人權等等我覺得這個也都不應該忽略對於這個平埔原住民族的保障所以既然後面的條文都有提到說各階段權利要分階段進一步檢討了那為什麼原基法就不能直接適用這是我的疑問那"},{"start":9696.898,"end":9706.076,"text":"所以我是主張說其實原基法現在就可以直接使用在評估原住民身上這應該是大家要有共識的才對以上來 請鄭天才委員"},{"start":9711.151,"end":9734.546,"text":"這個第一個哈這個第22條這個部分因為那個跟林益錦委員的條文如果談到是不是用原住民族基本法那會在行政院版是23條在23條那邊所以是要一起談還是要分開談"},{"start":9736.047,"end":9756.296,"text":"那我先先就這個22條我還是建議就是用準用這主要就是說雖然剛才嚴明會有做了說明我們還是要考慮到這個現在既有原住民身份的他相關的就業尤其是像這個"},{"start":9758.957,"end":9783.352,"text":"原住民行政特考原住民行政特考這個部分這個跟就業有關係他沒有另外一個剛才你講的原住民主教育法就不一定適用啊就不是就會產生這些未來在解釋上會產生很大的這些問題所以這個部分我是建議還是用準用那至於這個"},{"start":9786.166,"end":9812.3,"text":"林委員剛才講的那個基本法的部分是不是我們在23條的時候再來討論那至於這個要加這個文化資產保存法我支持啦可以加文化資產保存法那至於國家原那個是其實沒有分啦沒有分族群這個部分是這個讓這個大家那個了解以上"},{"start":9814.828,"end":9842.877,"text":"好謝謝各位還有什麼意見要補充看起來挺分歧的對吧到底哪些要適用然後是適用還是準用對不對大概是這兩個爭點我覺得我們可能需要一點點時間來凝聚一下共識好不好我們這條先保留可以嗎我們先把它跑一輪嘛好不好好所以這個月滿二十二條我們暫時先保留待會再討論二十三條文法施行後三年內"},{"start":9844.042,"end":9856.73,"text":"那另一級委員等人提案是兩年內鄭天才委員的說法是說三年內但要制定平埔原住民族群基本法等相關法律好不好這一樣有不同的意見來我們請鄭天才委員"},{"start":9861.361,"end":9876.761,"text":"這個本席的整個脈絡就是怎麼樣讓平埔族群這個相關的這些權益這個身份一定了之後相關的權益能夠很快的去推動"},{"start":9877.922,"end":9900.505,"text":"所以我才會提出這個第一個平埔原住民族群委員會自己有自己的機關自己的相關的這些民意代表去共同的去爭取自己的權益會更快會更有保障這是第一個第二個就是說因為憲法判決裡面特別提到平埔"},{"start":9902.082,"end":9925.235,"text":"原住民的相關的權益是要去另外考量另外去考量所以行政院版才會說制定或修正相關的法律制定行政院版制定或修正相關的法律那我因為公務員當久了所以我是想說這個"},{"start":9926.716,"end":9954.796,"text":"平埔族群他的權益你到底要這麼多的法律剛剛念了很多法律嘛到底要制定什麼法律不明確然後要修正什麼法律要花時間去大家的討論因為都會跟相關部會要去溝通協調還不如直接就制定一個平埔原住民族群基本法"},{"start":9956.229,"end":9983.959,"text":"這個條文草案出來之後大家一起討論到底哪些是可以哪些是不可以那個方向會很快方向會很快就像這個新住民基本法有這個草案之後大家來討論就會很快不然的話到底是要制定什麼然後要修正什麼一條一條一個法一個法真的是會很慢"},{"start":9985.194,"end":10011.442,"text":"所以我的建議就是說直接就是制定平埔原住民族群基本法這樣的話對權益的爭取保障會更快 以上好 謝謝我們請林益菁委員我補充說明一下剛剛的修正動議是一年嘛 對不對好 我們請林益菁委員好 謝謝我的原提案是兩年那後來修正動議改一年為什麼會這樣因為我覺得這件事情真的不能等"},{"start":10013.587,"end":10041.105,"text":"講一下這個歷史遠遠,1994年台灣原住民族的政民運動中就有戈馬蘭族、凱達戈安族等平埔原住民族的隊伍參與抗爭,訴求政民2001年就開始有赴民赴權的運動2005年,台南縣政府率先承認西拉雅族為縣定原住民族那花蓮縣傅里鄉也在2013年認定大武隆族為鄉定原住民"},{"start":10041.525,"end":10056.576,"text":"屏東縣政府也在2016年承認這個馬改報族為限定原住民我想這數十年來訴求身份跟父權沒有停過那說那麼多要講什麼就是說數十年下來政府難道都沒有盤點過嗎那就算沒有也應該要在憲法法庭判決後就要初步盤點而不是三年後才端出這樣一個所謂的身份法"},{"start":10069.165,"end":10095.344,"text":"台南市政府一直以來都相當支持這個希拉雅族跟拼補原住民族所以我們台南市有個自治法叫做台南市希拉雅族振興發展辦法那這有直接根據這個自治法規給予台南市的希拉雅族親各項教育文化、交通水利、經濟土地等社會福利的優惠我要表達的是說台南市政府能在地方自治範圍內做到了那其他縣市甚至中央政府沒有道理不行"},{"start":10096.044,"end":10123.974,"text":"所以我懇請原住民要審慎思考一年內要完成資源盤點的這個可能性也是給因應期盼的族親們一個交代以上好 請高清書委員我們今天在審的是行政院的版本當然各委員有權利可以提出自己的看法跟想法那我覺得我們還是要看一下我剛剛一直提到這個法大概十年了"},{"start":10125.234,"end":10148.686,"text":"蔡英文時期的時候也沒有提出來賴清德總統到上任現在一年多然後已經要到憲法實現的時候現在又再提出來所以事實上我認為應該是原民會也好政務委員也好包括是賴清德總統也好他們應該都盤點過我剛剛講到他的權益涉及到127條的法律"},{"start":10150.947,"end":10153.23,"text":"283條的法規命令你一年怎麼處理我們真的要務實看這件事情所以今天行政院版提出是三年內我覺得大家是可以接受的"},{"start":10166.565,"end":10190.312,"text":"那你一年我們務實的來看我們自己在立法院修法立法我們的時程那你內政委員會或者是其他委員會都不要排別的法案了嗎然後通通都排這個嗎也不太可能嘛對不對所以我們身為立法委員我覺得我們務實要看你當然一年感覺是大家都能接受聽了很爽可是事實上有沒有可能"},{"start":10191.53,"end":10197.583,"text":"我覺得行政院的版本三年內應該有他們的考量以上 謝謝"},{"start":10200.2,"end":10225.185,"text":"來 這個到底幾年比較能夠好好來執行跟安排相關的配套對不對來 原住民組委員會是不是提供一下說法這一次回答啦因為這一條是兩個爭點嘛第一個 多少時間內要處理第二個 方向上是否要明定比如鎮委員講說直接就修基本法那按照院版是說有一個方向完善法規就好好不好針對這兩件事情我們請這個原民會提出說明 來"},{"start":10225.945,"end":10247.595,"text":"好那這個部分第一個部分針對一年還是三年的部分那我們覺得說應該還是三年正如高基金委員所提到的就是說因為這個部分他盤點之後還要再去修法在修法過程當中就必須要去通訪考量原住民平埔原住民族的這個實際的這個需求所以需要一點點的時間所以我們認為說三年應該是比較合理的"},{"start":10248.295,"end":10262.885,"text":"那另外就針對這個政委員所提的這個平埔原住民族原住民族群基本法的這個部分那我們一方面在法制作業上就是說我們比較不會在法律條文裡面看到一個還不存在的法律的名稱"},{"start":10264.146,"end":10289.504,"text":"所以過去我們看到法律通常立法就是說針對哪些事項要領以法律定之所以他不會說直接把法律的名稱定出來那這第一個那第二個就是說在政治參與交通水利衛生醫療經濟土地跟社會福利的這些領域的保障在原住民族現行原住民族的權益保障裡面這些並不是都規定在同一個法律裡面比如說原住民的政治參與他是規定在地方制度法跟公職人員選辦法"},{"start":10290.485,"end":10309.974,"text":"那交通水利它也可能是定在別的像衛生醫療它是定在原住民族健康法的這個部分所以它並不是說制定一部原住民族族群基本法它就可以涵蓋這些項目所以我們建議就是說可能還是制定或修正相關法律來統籌這個概念會比較完整好 請問各位委員聽了原民會的說明之後有沒有想法有沒有改變"},{"start":10322.421,"end":10333.627,"text":"沒有改變我們就要保留嘛主席,在這裡面喔,我是覺得這個時間可能要再多因為這個23...沒關係因為我的想法,從研究出來,覺得說政治的產物啦,交通的問題啦衛生、醫療、經濟、土地、社會、福利"},{"start":10351.716,"end":10364.942,"text":"跟議員的文化跟教育,頂頂這麼多,你如果說跟陶琴聲,你們就有一個概念啦跟這個時間報分幾百以上,但是聽起來覺得都沒做,跟鄉鄉就不會這樣,我的想法是覺得說,要做得好"},{"start":10374.904,"end":10386.712,"text":"這是最要緊的 跟那個時間 大家看怎麼處理 我覺得說本學所講的問題 到目前為止 包括我們門檻 都阿伯做 以上好 那麼這一條 保留嗎 好不好23條我們先保留"},{"start":10402.131,"end":10410.743,"text":"進到24條公佈的實行應該沒有問題吧這個是因為憲法法庭有時間壓力嘛對不對所以我們今天趕快來審嘛對不對所以公佈的實行那有問題嗎"},{"start":10412.062,"end":10416.485,"text":"主席 沒問題 要不要在這裡補充一下 剛才本席所說的 也不是他們自己可以做的很多交通部的 衛福部 跟經濟部 跟很多 說實在的 他們是發的驚 發不驚 這又是一個問題"},{"start":10433.51,"end":10438.556,"text":"議長,我是說要解決問題,我們不要說說得這麼好聽,自己是看會怕,看不怕,這是最要緊,不過要拜託行政院院長他們幫忙協調一下,議長"},{"start":10451.53,"end":10470.976,"text":"好 我們條文照院版通過嘛 好不好好 那我們第一輪跑完了 這樣我們休息協商15分鐘討論幾件事情 第一個就是這些保留條文要不要再凝聚共識第二 相關的附帶決議趕快行政機關跟提案的委員先做溝通 好不好我們休息協商15分鐘 現在休息"},{"start":10481.442,"end":10486.325,"text":"我們就把這個文字給你這個是第幾條的針對第六條他們希望審查寬鬆一點"},{"start":10511.442,"end":10511.493,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":10512.776,"end":10515.558,"text":"很多很多 抱歉喔 問題這麼多 還真的問題太多"},{"start":10542.796,"end":10548.281,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李卓人"},{"start":10558.643,"end":10559.624,"text":"稍微稍微"},{"start":10588.191,"end":10594.359,"text":"你不要這樣我...你不要這樣我...我來...我...你協商平台 平台之後再開一堆 其實就這樣子我們就要過去改 我知道 我知道"},{"start":10606.544,"end":10618.648,"text":"他們有移出來了,移出來了,不在局面上,不在局面上,不在局面上,"},{"start":10631.731,"end":10639.676,"text":"其實到後來我這樣看就三角了我這樣有八角,你要有三角就四角三角是四角啦,是花多一點時間在那邊"},{"start":10658.767,"end":10661.229,"text":"還是給我看一下 但是能不能處理"},{"start":10682.366,"end":10682.386,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":10700.653,"end":10702.214,"text":"我們是延續這一個 當然沒有問題"},{"start":10726.108,"end":10729.229,"text":"我會去職工 如果可以我就去28那個禮拜來買"},{"start":10746.194,"end":10748.657,"text":"這樣就兩個禮拜然後原民會是要什麼理工 對不對我們跟原民會有交代"},{"start":10764.395,"end":10789.642,"text":"原理會也準備好資料好不好所以要保存在原理會那兩個我們先保留你們兩個好不好剛剛那個其實有講喔副大局因為一強就是第六強一強跟23強都保留我們保留任何人的資格好不好當然當然都是我們主要研究自己的資格喔因為我們都同意人家講的就是女士要嚴謹一點半的婚姻快點婚姻"},{"start":10790.542,"end":10793.445,"text":"好 各位 請坐 上樑我問幾條 好啦268 412 17 623嘛 對不對我問8個條文"},{"start":10821.618,"end":10823.1,"text":"好 大家請坐關鍵人物不見了"},{"start":10833.208,"end":10858.74,"text":"我直接跟大家報告我們剛剛休息協商的結論這樣比較快啦好不好真的大家同意是這樣子啦因為今天這樣我們經過第一輪的討論其實也算蠻有進度的啦很多基本上是有通過有達成共識的條文我們有來通過但是保留的部分有第二條 第六條 第八條 第十條十二 十七 二二 二三總共還有八個條文有些是方向還沒有完全確定有一些是委員希望"},{"start":10859.82,"end":10874.15,"text":"這個人民會提供更清楚的說明跟配套措施那我們這樣子就是說今天我們這八條我們就給它保留下一次本席就下一次排案的時候下下週啦我會再來安排一次這個的討論那我們這個下面討論我們就只討論這八個條文"},{"start":10876.832,"end":10897.978,"text":"好不好我們跟委員會有一個這樣子的一個共識通過了就通過了就不再處理這樣子我們兼顧了法案的推進效率但是也給了大家時間做周延的討論那我們要請原民會主委這邊針對這八個條文的爭議爭點詳細準備資料最好可以提早跟各個委員不管是提案委員修正動議的委員或者是提出意見的委員提早說明這樣"},{"start":10900.926,"end":10924.89,"text":"應該要提出說明 好不好免得這個法案過不了關因為這個法案是有一點時間壓力啦 好不好我們要推進 好不好那我們就這樣子作為今天的結論 可以嗎那另外我補充一下 意思有說明我們有兩個附帶決議對不對第一個是跟著第六條第二個跟著二十三條那因為第六條跟第二十三條都保留了所以我們的附帶決議就跟著那一次一起處理 好嗎"},{"start":10926.035,"end":10932.517,"text":"好 那今天就這樣子了 好不好那我們今天要 我們還是要宣讀一下對不對好好 呃"},{"start":10950.726,"end":10977.345,"text":"好報告委員會我們正式調這個模式還是要做一下那我們就請宣讀今天的協商結論請宣讀協商結論法案名稱第一條第四至五條第七九十一十三至十六十八至二十一二十四站一行政院提案通過第三條站一代會員等委員提案通過第二條第六條第八條第十條第十二條第十七條第二十二條第二十三條保留"},{"start":10979.177,"end":10998.269,"text":"擬請委員等提案第二十二條不予採納報告完畢好 請問委員我們按照剛剛協商結論通過請問有異議沒有好 我們有異議通過那我們做以下決議討論事項二 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第一張"},{"start":26.768,"end":33.714,"text":"部長 這個問題我上個禮拜醫院協會 區醫院協會都一直來反映"},{"start":34.864,"end":58.007,"text":"那你們開會就這樣倉促的決定說醫協中心跟區議院要比照上市公司來管理只要違反勞基法就要加重處罰這個反彈非常大那我有找師長來做協調但是反正有1000個理由說一點被實施8月1號"},{"start":59.366,"end":72.315,"text":"那這個是非常嚴重,我是覺得,我常常跟你電話聽說你是在中邪,你是怕今天事情不夠煩,不夠派出力,要跟火上加油,那你的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":73.911,"end":89.644,"text":"跟素仁說明喔其實我想勞務在這一次這個這個處罰罰還的採處罰還的公共性原則的調整上面其實我們並沒有增加對醫院更多的管制性的要求其實只是針對"},{"start":92.346,"end":116.321,"text":"這個財儲他的下限從原本是兩萬元到一百萬現在改成是五萬到一百萬其實我們上限也並沒有動薪資的部分我想是沒問題就是兩萬到 風時的問題對那我現在現在我的意思是說我們其實只是從兩萬提高到五萬喔這花款是吧對我們只把這個花款從兩萬提高到五萬一百五十萬啊沒有沒有我們上限還是一百啊"},{"start":117.782,"end":138.36,"text":"上限還是一百萬上限是一百萬只是下限的部分從兩萬拉到五萬那這個我要強調的是我們並沒有提出更多的管制性的要求只要醫院能夠遵守法規把法規做好這個調整其實對醫院來說並沒有影響啊我跟部長講這個勞基網是霸王條款"},{"start":139.488,"end":159.718,"text":"霸王,不是你做母天堂比霸王一向就是醫療院所碰到這個,大家都坐在等公家醫院也有約聘人員,他也是壓力都很大那我跟你剛剛陳昭志委員,一個好幾個委員在講台灣有韌性,台灣能夠發展台灣可以這樣,現在不錯,那是台灣24小時在碰"},{"start":163.638,"end":178.285,"text":"所以晶片業者 他們三班坐 另外一班叫做On call所以是四班人在輪 那就是付出很高的代價那些人都是在賣肝啦 賣命啦那他的酬勞250年薪 300年薪 500年薪 應該的那醫療人員 剛剛陳昭書人講的值班 熬夜 現在我去某一個醫學中心的急診室"},{"start":192.796,"end":201.142,"text":"我去看他結果小兒科的急診你知道看病的那個兒科醫師是幾歲嗎57歲他看著我就站到後腳"},{"start":205.638,"end":233.218,"text":"說我做到腹瘦還要看急診還要加上尾巴加上尾巴是練不了的因為孩子大家都很緊張所以我要跟你報告現在醫院是全部人都納入勞基法包括住院醫師也納入勞基法住院醫師值班都有限制工時也限制反而是保護呢現在醫院的主力是主治醫師在值班看你有要求嗎"},{"start":235.712,"end":239.78,"text":"釜山高平均要60歲啦麻醉高 我說現在開桌一開超過八點鐘、十點鐘要很多啦那都麻醉高 都醫生 外科醫生大家在那邊拚拚後"},{"start":250.735,"end":265.4,"text":"對這是很嚴肅的問題那個跟文說明我們其實正是要來保護醫療人員跟醫護人員的勞動權益我們就是因為重視他們的勞動權益也是因為有很多的醫護人員來跟我們反映"},{"start":266.3,"end":293.899,"text":"其實醫院如果違法其實有幾個相關的法規違反的話其實常常只是被罰兩萬元這個違法的成本真的太低了其實這正是很多的醫護人員來跟勞動部反映認為這個財儲過去的財儲不符合比例原則所以我們很怕現在醫學中心跟區醫院因為很多區醫院都是在各個縣市的偏遠地區尤其區醫院都是"},{"start":295.319,"end":318.388,"text":"施仲良說東塔醫院啦,我看是碼頭醫院啦或是標桿醫院都沒關係,反正那些都很重要那些都是現在主治醫師級在撐耶那個醫院協會李慧朋他的兒子好像神經外科他兒子半夜要去開刀,這把小孩子丟給他他阿公在過分主治醫師其實現在是適用老計法的84條之一啊"},{"start":319.284,"end":325.569,"text":"主治醫師現在 住院醫師那是沒有問題主治醫師沒有公實規範我跟妳講喔 再過去啦 因為說一邊會走走那邊用檢疫 想要檢疫就都一邊所以那邊用檢疫 昨天沒人要開桌沒人要拒收 有人求像日本這樣一個產婦 去洗腳 救護車"},{"start":345.063,"end":371.489,"text":"請問施加醫院沒有一間要收台灣如果變成這樣那一頓就停產這個跟委員說明我們其實正是很關注醫護人員的勞動的權益所以我們其實才做這個方面的調整那我們也覺得我們也看到現在醫護人員這個人才流財相關的困境所以我們也才覺得更需要院方把"},{"start":372.009,"end":376.857,"text":"法尊給做好 這才有助於流程我們在熬夜 我們在值班我們在run 24小時"},{"start":378.908,"end":399.706,"text":"熬夜是很累的,掉頭髮會掉的時候我就會掉,脖子也會掉皮膚會老化,免疫力會下降,那是會破壞的沒有人,我就會繼續動下去女性,我們婦女人員如果是大一班常常上,那連月經週期都會亂的那很嚴重的事啦,台灣的命運是在這,台灣的韌性在這所以這個案要實施"},{"start":407.032,"end":420.402,"text":"來我們財政部處長我問你川普說加班費值班費都免稅我覺得他講得很好啊雖然川普常常亂講話但是他講這個非常好"},{"start":421.403,"end":429.989,"text":"因為那都是在賣命 整個美國要進步也是這樣這的人為了台灣 不關是服務業 不關是醫療我們公家醫院的醫師 社團法人 財團法人的醫師都是這樣在碰這的人 極重任難的主治醫師他這樣賣命 哪個值班費 現在都要繳稅 而且稅都很重"},{"start":449.673,"end":475.219,"text":"我們現在始終兩處長跟部長在推說這些家職班會不管公家醫院 不管私人醫院 不管財政法院都可以給免稅 美國就這樣幹啊我們能不能這樣幹啊不然的話 組織醫師 政策醫師全部跑光了都招來經受 因為經受可以執行業務所得嘛所以你這個事情非常嚴重 如果要修法 我跟"},{"start":476.22,"end":486.195,"text":"財政委員會的人說要修法 給他免稅額啦什麼特別扣除 但是那都不太可行就是把夾環會 值班會直接認定你有這個Data嗎"},{"start":488.264,"end":504.759,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實我們也了解我們中央健保署其實有在檢討這部分那其實我們財政部非常的積極已經有函詢衛福部在釐清這個延長工作時間的加班時數跟他的支付標準的問題那這個部分我們會持續的來跟衛福部來演繹"},{"start":506.778,"end":535.496,"text":"你把他每個月的那個所得等下除以他的工時然後算出來每個小時那他如果超時的或者是時間外的就讓他免稅能夠報出來 這樣可行這個沒有多少錢嘛不然的話留不住人喔 我跟你講我覺得建議蠻好的這個部分我們來看看我們財政中心可不可以跑一下但是那個工作時數可能醫院才會有所以這個部分我們會持續的來跟衛福部"},{"start":535.996,"end":564.447,"text":"你要積極來做 不然的話就很嚴重 被勞動部再K下去的話我告訴你 兩頭空連陳先生都不想值班了還是有受那個勞基法的一個加班時數規定的一個限制啦所以 對你們是用醫師法所以我們會持續的來跟衛福部那持續跟我們的醫療院所這邊衛福部看看他們有沒有這個我們的一些醫師的一個加班時數的規定"},{"start":565.828,"end":585.54,"text":"然後我們來學衛生部一起研究我希望衛生部還有那個石署長跟家政部在那邊積極啦這個公家醫院的意思也是一樣那你如果沒有的話這個社團法院醫院、私人醫院把這個拉高把這個有加值班費免稅我要跟國家賠的多少料料?跟賠的多少我沒辦法"},{"start":588.274,"end":599.102,"text":"那是很嚴重的問題 你現在值班的人都五六十歲 六十幾歲值班我們屏東有婦產科醫師 八十五歲 還在控案 還在值班一個八十五歲 一個六十五歲 請問委員 其實我們都去過議院所以這個你們財政部不要說到財政部 說到婦稅層 大家都拖著走 拖著頂角角不 委員我們你現在幾歲是長命性的"},{"start":617.996,"end":633.95,"text":"我們還是必須考慮租稅的中立性跟公平性啦但是我們了解醫療院所的我們的醫生的一些他工作的一個特殊性所以我們會來檢討這個合理性你的多久可以討論出來這個我們會看跟衛福部一起合作兩禮拜一個月應該是沒辦法這麼快一個月也不太快"},{"start":640.455,"end":651.058,"text":"我們會積極來處理兩個聯席會一直來跟你K我們可能也需要一些Data來研究看怎麼樣的加班時數比較合理報告一下 這個衛福部我們有請建保署這位很會心會心還是會心很會心的去做很多的討論很會心的做的討論也很用心的跟"},{"start":670.124,"end":686.475,"text":"現在是請醫院協會因為這個科別有它的複雜不同性所以我們用最快的適度所以我想也拜託財政部能夠用最快的適度因為希望在今年能夠完成這樣的一個制度那明年就可以來"},{"start":699.984,"end":711.76,"text":"現在他就看一半安全跟那些醫院是救人的單位啦所以我們開刀絕對不會開到一半就停因為他的想法跟你就不一樣啦"},{"start":713.407,"end":726.317,"text":"他是算不太年輕 他很年輕他的生活就跟我們不一樣 你們常常說的理想 為了賠人 救人什麼的說那些五四三的 現在都沒在聽 我們那個時代真的是要有這樣站在內地 但是現在不一樣所以 現在都很很很spatical的所以所以這 施主長你趕緊啦一位一位一位"},{"start":741.956,"end":768.906,"text":"我們會要求臺灣醫院協會盡快希望在幾天之內就能夠提出來提出來以後就請負稅署能夠財政部能夠做然後我們這邊相關的成績衛護部的高階會議也一直在討論怎麼樣把它落實那最重要的就是財政部這邊我自己都吵死了對不起啊因為部長你這個案對的前往是要執行你往是要執行就對了"},{"start":770.166,"end":770.949,"text":"啊你就要看要怎麼"},{"start":772.862,"end":798.52,"text":"實行上的那個態度有很多很多嘛你不要在火上加油讓我們這個這個已經很慘了會不會說明我們願意來跟醫院來協助他們相關的法尊的輔導我想這我們都願意做但是我們做這件事情正是我想大家都很在意醫護人員的勞動權益我們真的是因為重視醫護人員的勞動權益到時候醫院就一句話就都吵死了現在在開刀開刀棒已經滿載了"},{"start":800.982,"end":801.843,"text":"我們其實針對緊急性的連續手術其實是我們有開了一個這個牢記法的"},{"start":820.345,"end":846.982,"text":"相對應的這個彈性其實如果是因為緊急手術他沒有辦法如時間的下班的話其實在這邊是有彈性的所以沒有那個問題其實我們現在看到最多違反的問題就是不給加班費這個我們要不給加班費這有助於流財嗎不給加班費難道我們就是應該沒有沒有醫療案者醫療案者的薪資的調整我在這裡也跟你承諾"},{"start":848.818,"end":858.124,"text":"衛福給我們的錢 健保提供員的錢我們大部分都用在改善勞動條件 增加薪資這個我們可以承諾 我們也可以責成醫院協會跟區域醫學院協會"},{"start":859.417,"end":868.979,"text":"每一張碼放在一起都在改善 市場已經改善 大家都變變變從現在從數據上面 統計上面看到最多的就是沒有如實給加班費 這個我們來努力這個難道不給加班費 勞動部可以放鬆嗎好 來來來 農業部 來來來我還有30秒 30秒就好委員好"},{"start":887.08,"end":895.082,"text":"現在很多市街市地的在陳情陳情都是我跟張嘉軒在接我平常都在市地市街市街兩個我們現在榮譽木美國進來的這些產品我們的關稅是多少"},{"start":903.63,"end":912.557,"text":"差不多6.5我們的平均關稅是16.6我們去美國是平均5.幾那我們像豬肉進來的關稅是12.5我們給他收12.5現在如果他全部要求我們都領關稅像那個越南像印尼這樣全部領那我們會不會崩盤"},{"start":921.772,"end":931.478,"text":"應該是這樣說啦 其實美國跟我們的農產品貿易本來就是互相大家有來有去譬如說我們的黃小玉大部分都從美國來我們這裡去美國的也有我們的譬如說我們蘭花啦 這裡的花卉 水產品所以本來就是互相在搭的啊 但是當然是臺灣的過程當中一定是大家在那我也要替我們臺灣的農業顧 啊他也相當希望他的農產品來臺灣民關稅的話 那個譬如豬肉 牛肉本來就進來很多啦"},{"start":949.289,"end":971.161,"text":"那豬肉的話,現在進來的,如果是零關稅,這樣大舉入侵進來到30%的話,我們的豬籠是會崩潰的喔?你們要怎麼補貨,你們有配套嗎?我們特別預算上禮拜通過5000多億,裡面有一部要給農業的,夠不夠?沒有的話它是沒有屋頂的喔,我們是打開屋頂"},{"start":972.262,"end":974.383,"text":"我們台灣的豬肉一公斤是95塊成本美國進來是差不多60塊如果在12.5%的關稅拿掉剩下50塊不到"},{"start":996.983,"end":1018.641,"text":"省一半 那個地板很細那牛肉 阿賴 雞肉 蚵仔 蚵仔我都拖拖所以稻米 稻米現在美國每年出口320萬噸比台灣出產的還多那這個我們稻米現在一公斤也是50塊嘛那美國進來的才35塊如果要零關稅的話"},{"start":1020.168,"end":1032.677,"text":"所以我賺了20幾塊 30塊我們台灣人賺的錢跟賣的錢 日本傢伙要賺的錢賺的錢嘛 對不對坦白說我昨天站在我們台灣人都站不住了今天你站不住啦 站不住要怎麼補貨啦站不住啦 站不住啦 拜託大家支持啦"},{"start":1036.92,"end":1046.744,"text":"那個萊克多巴胺那個也要堅持一下你們也要國內的萊克多巴胺不使用所以萊克多巴胺不可以在美國進來0.4 0.9這個要有好的配套啦這個很重要很重要很重要謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時56分）謝謝主席。我請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蘇委員清泉：財政部次長、農業部次長。"],["主席：兩位次長。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，這個問題上個禮拜醫院協會、區域醫院協會都一直來反映，你們開會就這樣倉促決定醫學中心跟區域醫院要比照上市公司管理，只要違反勞基法就要加重處罰，這個造成的反彈非常大，我有找司長來協調，但是就有一千個理由說8月1號一定要實施，這個非常嚴重。昨天我在電話中跟你說你是「著猴」喔？你是怕事情不夠煩、不夠難處理，要再火上加油？你的看法怎麼樣？"],["洪部長申翰：跟蘇委員說明，勞動部在這一次裁處罰鍰共通性原則的調整上面，其實我們並沒有增加對醫院更多的管制性要求，只是針對裁處下限從原本的2萬元到100萬，現在改成5萬到100萬，我們上限也並沒有動。"],["蘇委員清泉：薪資的部分，我想是沒問題，但是是工時的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：對，現在我的意思是其實我們只是從2萬提高到5萬。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是罰款？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們只是把罰款從2萬提高到5萬……"],["蘇委員清泉：上限還提高到150萬啊！"],["洪部長申翰：沒有、沒有，上限還是100萬。"],["蘇委員清泉：大家嚇都嚇死了。"],["洪部長申翰：上限還是100萬，上限是100萬，只是下限的部分從2萬拉到5萬。我要強調的是我們並沒有提出更多的管制性要求，只要醫院能夠遵守法規，把法遵做好，這個調整其實對醫院來說並沒有影響。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟部長講，勞基法是霸王條款，不是你當部長才變霸王的，一向就是醫療院所碰到這個，大家都「剉咧等」，公家醫院也有約聘人員，它也是壓力都很大。剛剛包括陳昭姿委員，有好幾個委員都在講，臺灣有韌性，臺灣能夠發展，臺灣現在可以這樣不錯，那是臺灣24小時在打拚，晶片業者是三班制，另外一班叫做on call，所以是四班人在輪，那是要付出很高的代價，那些人都是在賣肝、賣命，他們的酬勞年薪250萬、年薪300萬、年薪500萬，應該的！至於醫療人員，剛剛陳昭姿委員講了，值班、熬夜，現在我去某一個醫學中心的急診室看，結果小兒科的急診，你知道看病的兒科醫師是幾歲嗎？57歲！他看到我就站起來罵我，他說自己做到副教授還在看急診，還要被家屬罵，但被家屬罵是免不了，因為孩子生病，大家都很緊張！","所以我要跟你報告，現在是醫院全部的人都納入勞基法，包括住院醫師也納入勞基法，住院醫師值班都有限制，工時也限制，反而是保護，現在醫院的主力是主治醫師在值班，你看有沒有「夭壽」！婦產科醫生平均快60歲了，我跟你說，現在開刀一開超過8小時、10小時的很多，那都需要麻醉科醫生、外科醫生，大家在那邊拚，拚一拚之後……這是很嚴肅的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們其實正是要來保護醫療人員跟醫護人員的勞動權益，就是因為重視他們的勞動權益，也是因為有很多醫護人員來跟我們反映，醫院如果有幾個相關法規違反的話，常常只是被罰2萬元，違法的成本真的太低了！也正是很多醫護人員來跟勞動部反映，認為過去的裁處不符合比例原則，所以才希望我們把它提高。"],["蘇委員清泉：我很怕現在醫學中心跟區域醫院……因為很多區域醫院都是在各個縣市的偏遠地區，尤其區域醫院，就像石崇良說的是燈塔醫院，我看是像碼頭醫院，還是標竿醫院，但都沒關係，反正它們就是很重要，而那些都是主治醫師級的在撐，醫院協會李飛鵬的兒子好像是神經外科的醫師，他兒子半夜要去開刀，就把小孩子丟給他，就是阿公在照顧孫子。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，主治醫師現在是適用勞基法第八十四條之一。"],["黃司長綺雅：是住院醫師。"],["洪部長申翰：住院醫師。"],["蘇委員清泉：住院醫師是沒有問題。住院醫師現在每一個都是寶。"],["洪部長申翰：主治醫師沒有工時規範，對不起！主治醫師沒有工時規範。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟你講，因為醫院會怕，怕被檢舉，最會檢舉的都在醫院裡面。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以……"],["蘇委員清泉：所以如果被檢舉了，就沒有人要開刀，那就會拒收，就會有人球，像日本一個產婦要去生小孩，救護車詢問了7家醫院，沒有一家要收，臺灣如果變成這樣，那個時候就很慘了。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們其實正是很關注醫護人員的勞動權益，所以我們才做這方面的調整，我們也看到現在醫護人員人才留才相關的困境，所以我們才覺得更需要院方把法遵做好，這才有助於……"],["蘇委員清泉：我們在熬夜、我們在值班、我們在run 24小時，熬夜是很累的，是會掉頭髮的，像我就在掉頭髮了，部長也在掉了，還有皮膚會老化、免疫力會下降，那是會生病的！沒人有辦法繼續撐下去，我們的女性護理人員如果常常上大夜班，連月經週期都會亂掉，這是很嚴重的事情，臺灣的命脈是在這裡、臺灣的韌性在這裡，所以你這個案子要實施……","來，財政部次長，我問你，川普說加班費、值班費都免稅，我覺得他講得很好啊！雖然川普常常亂講話，但是他講這個非常好，因為那都是在賣命，整個美國要進步也是這樣啊！而這些人為了臺灣，不管是服務業、不管是醫療，我們公家醫院的醫師、財團法人的醫師都是這樣在運行，急重症主治醫師這樣賣命，拿個值班費現在都要繳稅，而且稅都很重，現在石崇良署長跟部長在推這些加值班費，不管公家醫院、不管私人醫院、不管財團法人醫院，都可以讓他們免稅，美國就這樣幹啊！我們能不能這樣幹？不然的話，主治醫師、重症醫師全部跑光了，都跑去診所，因為診所可以用執行業務所得，所以這個事情非常嚴重，如果要修法，我跟財政委員會的人說要修法給他們免稅額、特別扣除額，但真的都不太可行，所以就是把加班費、值班費直接認定，你有這方面的data嗎？"],["謝次長鈴媛：跟委員報告，其實我們也了解，中央健保署也有在檢討這部分，我們財政部非常積極，已經有函詢衛福部在釐清延長工作時間的加班時數和支付標準的問題，這個部分我們會持續跟衛福部研議。"],["蘇委員清泉：你把每個月的所得除以他的工時，然後算出來每個小時，如果有超時的或者是時間外的，就讓他免稅，能夠讓其報出來，這樣可行，這沒有多少錢嘛！不然的話留不住人啊！"],["謝次長鈴媛：委員建議滿好的，這個部分我們來看看財資中心可不可以跑一下，但是工作時數可能醫院才會有，所以這個部分我們會持續地跟衛福部……"],["蘇委員清泉：你要積極來做，不然真的很嚴重，然後又被勞動部再K下去的話，我跟你說，兩頭空！連陳菁徽都不想值班了。"],["謝次長鈴媛：不過這個部分還是有受勞基法加班時數規定的限制……你們適用醫事法，好，所以我們會持續地跟衛福部看看醫療院所有沒有醫師加班時數的規定，然後跟衛福部一起研究。"],["蘇委員清泉：我希望衛福部還有石署長跟財政部一起積極啦，公家醫院的醫師也是一樣，如果沒有的話，而社團法人醫院、私人醫院把加值班費免稅，我跟你講公家醫院醫護人員跑光光，全醫院人員跑掉沒半個，這是很嚴重的問題，現在值班的人都5、60歲，六十幾歲在值班，我們屏東有婦產科醫師85歲還在看患者、還在值班，一個85歲、一個65歲，請問是要叫他們去死嗎？"],["謝次長鈴媛：委員，我們都去過醫院……"],["蘇委員清泉：大家都在救人，所以財政部不要……說到財政部、說到賦稅署，大家都頭痛，都說你們頭殼硬邦邦。"],["謝次長鈴媛：不過委員，我們的確在租稅上是中立性的啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：你們真的很過分！"],["謝次長鈴媛：我們還是必須考慮租稅的中立性跟公平性，但是我們了解醫療院所醫生工作的特殊性，所以我們會來檢討這個合理性。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們多久可以討論出來？"],["謝次長鈴媛：我們會跟衛福部一起合作。"],["蘇委員清泉：兩個禮拜？一個月？"],["謝次長鈴媛：應該是沒辦法這麼快，一個月也沒辦法這麼快，我們會積極處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：一個月有初步的結論，而我還是會一直排，兩個聯席會一直K你們。"],["謝次長鈴媛：我們可能也需要一些data來研究，看怎麼樣的加班時數比較合理。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，你來支持一下，不然真的很慘。"],["邱部長泰源：我報告一下，衛福部也請健保署很費心……"],["蘇委員清泉：灰心還是費心？"],["邱部長泰源：很費心地做很多的討論。"],["蘇委員清泉：喔！我嚇一跳。"],["邱部長泰源：很費心做了討論，也很用心地請醫院協會，因為科別有它的複雜性，所以我們會用最快的速度，所以也拜託財政部能夠用最快的速度，希望在今年能夠完成這樣的一個制度，明年就可以來實行，這樣才能夠……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有，我跟你說現在大家都待不住，現在年輕醫生跟我們以前想法不一樣，我們那個時候是為了病人、理想，說了一大堆，現在他們不聽你講這些，他們就看眼前，跟那些做很久……"],["邱部長泰源：我想醫院是救人的單位，所以醫生開刀絕對不會開到一半就停。"],["蘇委員清泉：你問陳菁徽，他的想法跟你我就不一樣啦！他算是半個年輕人。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，他很年輕。"],["蘇委員清泉：他的想法就跟我們不一樣，你不要常常說這是理想、這是為了病人、救人，說那些「五四三」，現在他們都沒在聽，我們那個時代真的是「儉腸凹肚」，但是現在不一樣，他們都很practical，所以石署長儘快啦！一個月可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會要求臺灣醫院協會儘快，希望在幾天之內就能夠提出來，提出來以後請財政部賦稅署能夠做研析，我們這一邊相關層級、衛福部的高階會議也一直來討論怎麼樣把它落實，最重要的是財政部這邊。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，再給我一分鐘，我自己都超時，對不起啦！","部長，你這個案子8月1日硬要執行，你硬要執行就對了啦！你就要看怎麼樣……在執行上，態度有很多嘛，你不要再火上加油，我們這個已經很慘了。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們願意協助醫院進行相關法遵的輔導，我們都願意做，但是我們做這件事情，即大家都很在意醫護人員的勞動權益，我們正是因為重視醫護人員的勞動權益……"],["蘇委員清泉：不是，我很怕到時候醫院就一句話，都超時啊！若要開刀，開刀房已經滿載了，叫你把患者推出去，然後救護車就一直載，從恆春載去東港、東港載去高雄，就這樣一直載，這樣子就悽慘了。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們其實針對緊急的手術……"],["蘇委員清泉：我就開記者會K你了。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，如果針對緊急性的連續手術，勞基法裡面有相對應的彈性，其實如果是因為緊急手術，導致他沒有辦法如時下班的話，在勞基法是有彈性的，所以不會有那個問題，其實我們現在看到最多違反的問題就是不給加班費，不給加班費有助於留才嗎？不給加班費，我們就是應該更大力地要求醫院要法遵啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有！醫療院所薪資的調整，我在這裡也跟你承諾，衛福部給我們的錢、健保署給我們的錢，我們大部分都用在改善勞動條件、增加薪資，這個我們可以承諾，我們也可以責成醫院協會跟區域醫院協會，醫院這陣子拿到的錢都在做改善，實際上已經改善很多，大家都拚命在改善，你不要用這種例子來抹黑。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們現在從統計數據上面看到最多的就是沒有如實給加班費。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，這個我們來努力。"],["洪部長申翰：難道不給加班費，勞動部可以放鬆嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：好，農業部，再給我30秒就好。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在很多養雞的、養豬的在陳情，都是我跟張嘉群在接，我們屏東都是一些養豬、養雞、養雞蛋的。現在的農漁牧，從美國進來的這些產品，我們的關稅是多少？差不多6.5%？"],["杜次長文珍：我們的平均關稅是16.6%，我們去美國的平均是百分之五點幾。"],["蘇委員清泉：譬如說豬肉進來的關稅是12.5%，我們給他收12.5%，現在如果他全部要求我們都零關稅，像越南、像印尼這樣全部零關稅，那我們會不會崩盤？"],["杜次長文珍：應該是這樣說，其實美國跟我們的農產品貿易本來就是互相，大家有來有去，比如我們的「黃小玉」大部分都從美國來，我們去美國的也有比如說蘭花等花卉、水產品，所以本來就是互相，這是第一個；第二個，當然談判過程當中一定是大家在……我也要顧著我們臺灣的農業，他也相當希望他的農產品能來臺灣，所以……"],["蘇委員清泉：零關稅的話，因為牛肉本來就進來很多；豬肉的話，如果是零關稅，這樣大舉入侵，進來比例到30%的話，我們的豬農是會崩盤的喔！你們要怎麼保護？你們有沒有配套？我們特別預算上禮拜通過五千多億，裡面有一部分要給農業的，夠不夠？沒有的話，它是沒有屋頂的，我們是打開屋頂……"],["杜次長文珍：感謝委員支持臺灣的農業啦！當然，我們是面對全世界的貿易，我們農業自己要站得住、站得好，不只是保護自己的農業，我們的農業也要出口，所以感謝這些特別條例……"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟大家報告，臺灣的豬肉一公斤是95塊成本，美國進來差不多是60塊。"],["杜次長文珍：對，差不多60塊。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果再把進來12.5%的關稅拿掉，剩下50塊不到，剩一半，我們的豬肉就崩盤；再來牛肉還有雞肉、鵝肉都會很慘；稻米現在美國每年出口320萬噸，比臺灣出產的還多，我們現在稻米一公斤也是50塊，美國進來的差不多35塊，如果零關稅的話，差不多變成二十幾塊、30塊，我們臺灣的稻米保得住嗎？日本硬要擋的就是要擋稻米，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：談判當中我們絕對站在臺灣農業的立場……"],["蘇委員清泉：我是怕你們站不住啦！站不住腳是要怎麼保護……"],["杜次長文珍：站不住腳也要站住腳，感謝委員對我們的支持……"],["蘇委員清泉：跟食藥署一樣都站不住腳啦，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：拜託大家支持。"],["蘇委員清泉：萊克多巴胺也要堅持一下，你們也要……"],["杜次長文珍：國內萊克多巴胺不使用，所以如果有臺灣豬標章，我們絕對……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有，國內萊克多巴胺不使用，現在美國進來的0.4、0.9……"],["杜次長文珍：所以我們要promote臺灣豬肉的好。"],["蘇委員清泉：要有好的配套，這個很重要、很重要。"],["杜次長文珍：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857b6dcd072a357cc677e529aa6299d4c225af1ef4f9e86959b284365ca29e16c795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:44:46 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謝謝主席 我們有請邱部長"},{"start":14.011,"end":27.002,"text":"委員好 部長好 臺師長女竹她們這些學生被違法抽血的這件事情如果我們從人體研究法裡面 我們攤開第二條來看它開宗明義 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還有很多議題要問接下來就是民眾最關心的食安的問題這件事情必須 衛福部跟大家做說明今天農業部也來 可能一併要跟國人表示清楚因為現在傳言滿天飛我第一個要問的是現在美方有沒有要求我們取消美牛美豬的產品的標示 有或沒有你們接到訊息"},{"start":254.54,"end":277.235,"text":"我想台美的談判這個部分是還在談判中所以我想這個是還沒有結論的時候我想就未來我行政院這邊來所以你們都被下了風口我們衛福部當然就是要堅持以食安照顧人民所以衛福部的立場不會取消產地標示"},{"start":278.277,"end":304.936,"text":"是或不是我們一切都是會按照那個現行的法令食安法22條是要標的喔其實我們是一個身為一個WTO的一個國家我們當然是要國際的標準部長你回答我直接的問題我今天時間很有限我們科學分析跟國際的一個規範我這三題你就回答是或不是有或沒有就好不要再說明了有沒有要取消產地標示有或沒有就好"},{"start":305.644,"end":323.311,"text":"謝謝委員因為國際的慣例底下我們在面對談判的過程我們都知道很多國家的你不要再講這些我的時間很有限有或沒有不敢回答第二個要不要放行美牛的絞肉跟內臟這個是食安法第15條裡面的規定有沒有"},{"start":324.093,"end":345.419,"text":"我想針對所有的內容在他們其實之前叫做National Trade Evaluation NTE裡面其實都有以前多的議題美國其實是很關心的那有沒有要放行嗎我問你有沒有要放行那很關心的議題當中呢其實大家都會進一步去思考如何去去因應這樣所以已經鬆口了就是有可能要放行"},{"start":345.819,"end":366.03,"text":"我想這個議題其實因為牽涉到在談判的確在食藥署已經觸及了三級的機關的江署長其實安心署長對這部分有點困難針對這個重要的議題整體的國家的談判我們是配合所以你是配合如果是經貿談判小組說放行你們就照辦就對了"},{"start":367.071,"end":378.783,"text":"我想整個食品安全我們是以食品安全優先這個事情我已經知道你的答案了只要上面談判上面說放行你們就照辦第三個來即的容許值現在0.04是不是要放寬到0.09"},{"start":382.046,"end":404.998,"text":"這個部分我們在食安優先的前提之下要達到食安優先其實在風險評估的前提這個有沒有放經貿談判小組曾立軍副院長說放你們就放我們一定是在食品安全的科學分析風險評估的架構之下那我知道了你們這三項都有可能要開放都已經觸及了只是你們現在沒有辦法回答"},{"start":407.159,"end":432.633,"text":"接下來我要問勞動部一樣是關稅的議題我們看到衛福部在這個食安把關上面在關稅上面通通都是要聽行政院的指示邱部長你可以請回接下來我要問的是洪部長一樣是關稅議題我直接問你這一波的關稅預計會衝擊國內多少的勞工行政院是說12.5萬地方政府估起來是50萬"},{"start":433.956,"end":458.894,"text":"到底會衝擊多少我想現在關稅談判的結果還沒有出來這當然都會有不確定的地方就是關稅出口稅率的數字還沒有最後談判的結果出來這個我想這個相關的預估都是非常參考性的而已因為不同的數字當然就會不同受影響的程度所以那個Range行政也估了一個12.5萬不是"},{"start":462.098,"end":471.125,"text":"這個談判的數字沒出來今天還有個更重大的公安的問題我要問你這個台積電的外包的紙齋"},{"start":472.808,"end":495.345,"text":"事實上這個昨天剛發生這一個也是一個很重大的就是他的這個冰水管就是墜落現在這一位員工受傷工人受傷還在搶救當中那但是呢我們發現是不是在去年台積電在南科同樣有一個類似的"},{"start":497.979,"end":513.784,"text":"這個需要你們證實就是在南科18A廠有一個外包的僱員遭到905公斤一樣是冰水管重壓身亡有沒有這件事情我們可能要去了解一下"},{"start":514.229,"end":540.594,"text":"你們作為主管機關都還不知道這麼重大的質問沒有通報我以為你問的內容是非常非常細的所以我們可能要去了解一下你們都沒有獲得任何的通報嗎我今天要提醒的勞動部就是說如果是同一件的話這個2024年已經有一件現在是在台南那現在又在嘉義又同樣的類型都是冰水管這樣的一個施工出現問題然後重壓導致員工身亡"},{"start":543.795,"end":556.589,"text":"你們照照來講 針對這樣子同一個類型的案件勞動部應該要責任 這個涉及到這個職安的問題同一個類型 那應該就要提出警告或者是提醒大家怎麼樣去訪犯"},{"start":557.541,"end":581.029,"text":"我有分兩個部分第一個部分是我們這兩天我們會去把到底有沒有這樣的事件就是是否這樣子的敘事是否屬實我們會把它弄清楚那弄清楚以後來跟委員辦公室來做報告這是第一點那第二個是說如果真的有屬實的話我想該依法那要來做什麼樣處理的可能不是只是規勸該依法怎麼做處理的我們就必須依法來去落實來處理就是這樣"},{"start":582.529,"end":596.876,"text":"你們作為這個勞動主管機關就是這麼重大的職災不應該是你們不知道你們應該第一時間都應該要通報應該是要知道的所以這個是看到新聞上面是這樣子講的就是說當事人他們還有去陳情"},{"start":599.537,"end":615.248,"text":"就是有這樣的一則興亡 這個是我們看到的然後我們連到最新的 昨天又一樣是冰水管所以我要你們好好去了解的是 像這一類的半導體他們需要的這一些大型的重物的這個設施設備它在移動跟搬動的過程當中 它會造成工人這個質災"},{"start":621.573,"end":630.598,"text":"就是蠻嚴重的那這類型你們就有責任要去分析原因然後善盡提醒而且要去督導跟溫文說明其實過去"},{"start":632.523,"end":647.915,"text":"以台積電它其實在公安相關的記錄是算是蠻不錯的就是因為它這是一個很旗艦性的企業那當然最近發生的這些事情我想我們也願意跟廠商來做更多的討論跟協助然後導致有這樣的一個情況我們願意來協助因為確實過去以台積電的這個它的工程的規模"},{"start":656.001,"end":680.562,"text":"它其實是相當表現相對是比較好的那但是這幾個事情大家也覺得遺憾所以我們願意來給跟台積電來做討論哪些部分需要我們再多做協助那我們也希望這個模範生未來可以持續成為大家的模範因為我覺得這企業的領頭羊真的很重要好 我要求你們要去查清楚重點是未來的防範不應該讓這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生好不好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時45分）謝謝主席。有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。有關臺師大女足學生被違法抽血一事，人體研究法第二條開宗明義提到，人體研究要遵重研究對象的自主權，且對研究對象侵害要最小，要保障研究對象的權益。但到目前為止，我們看到校方在這次事件中完全違反學生的自主意願，強迫抽血。從目前所揭露的訊息可知，連續14天、每天抽血高達三次，這算侵害最小嗎？一般人實在難以想像每天都要被抽血，且連續14天，有這樣子的嗎？不知道這個研究計畫當時是怎麼通過倫理審查委員會的審查？若當時就載明如此情況……我光看到這一點就覺得不合理！就只是為了研究而研究，完全忽略被研究對象該有的基本權益！試問什麼樣的研究會連續14天抽學生的血？你們過去有看過這樣的相關研究嗎？且密度這麼高？我覺得這件事非常離譜！","另外一件離譜的事情是，去年其實就有學生反映了！所以我要問，衛福部是人體研究法的主管機關，請問你們什麼時候知道這件事？去年學生揭露的時候有通報到你們這邊來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員關心這件事情，我們感同身受，這點跟委員一樣，我們一切均依法辦理。人體研究法的主管機關的確是衛生福利部，但人體研究的監督、查核、管理、處分及研究對象權益的保障……"],["王委員育敏：我知道是教育部。"],["邱部長泰源：由其事業主管機關管轄。"],["王委員育敏：這次事件是教育部。"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然尊重教育部的調查及處理，至於在法這方面，我們則是看怎麼樣去落實這個法……"],["王委員育敏：我知道。"],["邱部長泰源：如果有什麼問題，未來……"],["王委員育敏：部長，我必須告訴你一件事。法原來是這樣子訂，沒錯，而這次事件真正要負責的目的事業主管機關是教育部，但教育部並未負起督導查核的責任，所以其中會不會有所謂的官官相護問題？他們通通在教育系統，又是臺師大提出來的研究，於是就輕輕放下。這次事件已經暴露出若未來該法均交由目的事業主管機關管理，而倫理審查委員會並沒有發揮監督、審查的功能，請問怎麼辦？這是個漏洞啊！因此，你們要從這次事件去看到這樣的現象，也就是說都來自同一個體系，官官相護是免不了的，這就是我現在所看到的情況，我希望你們能好好調查清楚，包括倫理審查委員會是不是喪失功能了？他們找了哪些對象來審查？委員會是否夠公平、公正、專業？如果有的話，那麼這樣一個計畫在第一時間根本就不會通過！這是我自己的看法，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員育敏：今天時間有限，我還有很多議題要問。接下來是民眾最關心的食安問題，而這件事情衛福部必須跟大家說明，今天農業部也有派人列席，所以你們要一併向國人表示清楚。","現在傳言滿天飛！所以我第一個要問的是：美方有沒有要求我們取消美牛、美豬的產品標示？有或沒有？以你們所接到訊息來說。"],["邱部長泰源：臺美有關這部分還在談判中，尚未有結論，所以未來由行政院這邊來……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們都被下了封口令？"],["邱部長泰源：我們衛福部當然會堅持食安，以照顧人民健康……"],["王委員育敏：所以衛福部的立場是不取消產地標示？是或不是？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一切都會按照……"],["王委員育敏：現行食安法第二十二條是規定要標示的！"],["邱部長泰源：身為WTO會員國，我們當然要……"],["王委員育敏：部長，你回答我的問題！我今天時間很有限，沒有辦法讓你們……"],["邱部長泰源：我們依據科學分析跟國際規範……"],["王委員育敏：我這三題你就回答是或不是、有或沒有就好。"],["邱部長泰源：我請食藥署署長……"],["王委員育敏：不要再說明了！有沒有要取消產地標示？有或沒有就好。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。在國際慣例下，在面對談判的過程中，我們知道很多國家都……我們目前還沒有宣布。"],["王委員育敏：你不要再講這些，我的時間很有限！有或沒有？不敢回答嗎？第二個，要不要放行美牛絞肉跟內臟？這是食安法第十五條的規定，有沒有？有沒有要放寬？"],["姜署長至剛：針對所有內容，之前的National Trade Evaluation（NTE）裡有很多議題，美國對此其實很關心……"],["王委員育敏：有沒有要放行？我問你有沒有要放行？"],["姜署長至剛：針對所關心的議題當中，大家都會進一步思考如何去因應這樣的……"],["王委員育敏：所以已經鬆口了，就是有可能要放行？"],["姜署長至剛：這議題牽涉到談判，的確在食藥署……"],["王委員育敏：已經觸及了？"],["姜署長至剛：三級機關的姜署長、安心署長其實對這部分有點困難，這個重要議題涉及國家整體談判，所以我們會配合行政院……"],["王委員育敏：所以你會配合？如果經貿談判小組說放行，你們會照辦就對了？"],["姜署長至剛：對整個食品安全，我們是以食品安全優先的……"],["王委員育敏：好，我已經知道你的答案了。只要上面在談判時說放行，你們就照辦！","第三個，萊劑的容許值現在是0.04，未來是不是要放寬到0.09？"],["姜署長至剛：在食安優先的條件下，要達到其實要以風險評估為前提。風險評估在國際的調和下……"],["王委員育敏：這個有沒有要放寬？只要經貿談判小組鄭麗君副院長說放，你們就放？"],["姜署長至剛：我們一定是在食品安全的科學分析、風險評估架構下去進行我們的……"],["王委員育敏：好，我知道了，這三項你們都有可能開放，都已經觸及了，只是你們現在沒有辦法回答。","接下來我要請問勞動部，一樣是關稅議題。我們看到衛福部在食安把關上、在關稅上通通都聽行政院指示。邱部長請回，接下來我要請問洪部長。","一樣是關稅議題，我直接問你，這一波關稅預計會衝擊國內多少勞工？行政院說12.5萬，地方政府預估50萬，到底會衝擊多少？"],["洪部長申翰：現在關稅談判的結果還沒有出來，所以會有不確定之處。也就是關稅……"],["王委員育敏：所以你也不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：有關出口稅率的數字，最後談判的結果還沒出來，因此相關預估都只是參考性而已，畢竟不同的數字受影響的程度就會不同！"],["王委員育敏：以range來說，行政院估了12.5萬？"],["洪部長申翰：不是！在談判數字沒出來前，這些都是……"],["王委員育敏：我就不講數字問題，我今天還有一個更重大的工安問題要問你，也就是台積電的外包職災。昨天才剛發生很重大的意外──冰水管墜落導致工人受傷，還在搶救當中。其實去年台積電在南科也發生類似案件，不過這個需要你們證實，即南科18A廠有外包僱員遭到905公斤的冰水管重壓身亡，有沒有這件事？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可能要進一步了解一下。"],["王委員育敏：你們作為主管機關都不知道？這麼重大的職安？沒有通報……"],["洪部長申翰：委員問的內容非常非常細，所以我們可能要去了解一下。"],["王委員育敏：你們沒有獲得任何通報嗎？我今天要提醒勞動部注意的是，如果是同一類案件，其實在2024年已經有一件，在臺南；現在則是在嘉義，都是同樣類型，都是冰水管的施工出現問題，導致重壓員工身亡！照道理講，對於同類型案件勞動部應該有責任，畢竟涉及到職安問題！既是同類型，就應該要提出警告，或提醒大家防範。"],["洪部長申翰：我分兩個部分：第一個部分，這兩天我們會把到底有沒有這樣的事件、是否屬實……"],["王委員育敏：對，你們要去查。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會弄清楚，弄清楚後再向委員辦公室報告，這是第一點。第二個，若屬實的話，可能就不只是規勸，而是依法該怎麼處理的，我們就必須依法落實處理，就是這樣。"],["王委員育敏：勞動部作為主管機關，對於這麼重大的職災你們不應該不知道！因為第一時間都要通報，所以你們應該是知道的，而且新聞也講了當事人有去陳情，有這樣的新聞出現，這是我們所看到的。結果昨天又發生最新的一件，一樣又是冰水管，所以我要你們好好去了解，像這類半導體需要的大型重物設施設備，它在移動跟搬動的過程當中會造成工人職災，而且是滿嚴重的，這一類型你們就有責任要去分析原因，然後善盡提醒，而且要去督導，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實過去台積電在工安相關紀錄算是滿不錯的，因為它是一個旗艦性的企業。"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["洪部長申翰：至於近期發生的這些事情，我們也願意跟廠商做更多的討論跟協助，包括跟業主……"],["王委員育敏：他們是不是有趕工的壓力，導致有這樣的一個情況？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意協助，因為以台積電過去的工程規模……"],["王委員育敏：是啊！它是模範生啊！"],["洪部長申翰：其實它表現是相對比較好的，但是這幾件事情大家也覺得遺憾，所以我們願意跟台積電討論哪些部分需要我們再多作協助，我們也希望這個模範生未來可以持續成為大家的模範。"],["王委員育敏：當然。"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得企業的領頭羊，這很重要！"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求你們要去查清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：重點是未來的防範，不應該讓這樣事情一而再、再而三的發生，好不好？謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["主席（陳委員菁徽代）：謝謝委員，謝謝部長。","下一位請蘇清泉召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b985779489297bc1db9457e529aa6299d4c225af1ef4f9e86959bcf090c686565d07c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:32:21 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謝謝官員 也請邱部長 謝謝委員長部長早部長這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象連續14天配合抽血有時候一天抽三次從早上起床一直抽到晚上"},{"start":31.309,"end":56.458,"text":"那這邊呢昨天我也感到非常的不解因為林靜怡次長她評論說她對於這件事件是很震驚啊她非常想知道說這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了是學校在處理血液檢體嗎或者是和醫療相關的機構做合作部長你是不是也一樣覺得對這件事很不解那我想知道衛福部過了這麼久有哪一些新的資訊呢"},{"start":58.764,"end":84.318,"text":"好,謝謝委員的垂行我們聽到這樣的一個訊息的確非常難過說實在也很生氣因為學生的授教權、學生的人權的維護是完全沒有模糊的空間所以我們非常願意來協助實業主管機關你一定要去整個了解現在地檢署也去做司法調查整個了解以後該究責的我們要研辦"},{"start":84.898,"end":103.893,"text":"好 那我先問一個問題抽血這件事情是不是要依市人員來執行是不是就簡單的問這個問題在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要依市人員這件事情是無用質疑那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎"},{"start":105.954,"end":122.026,"text":"從前像我們的居家醫療其實有有這樣子的一個但是是不是醫事人員所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到了IRB到底通過什麼然後這個這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的這個計劃來執行因為這裡面的問題到底我覺得在"},{"start":126.75,"end":142.125,"text":"以溫府部的立場我們是人體人體研究法主管機關我們是希望要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法尊來做處理如果他對法尊不清楚的時候我們其實是做協同所以才會是在這個事件裡面"},{"start":143.166,"end":168.534,"text":"整個教育部的IRB的訪查的這個機制到底有沒有什麼問題這是我們關注的第二件事情是IRB裡面特別是台師大的這個IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼然後目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講所以這個地方我們其實會再跟教育部做合作把它做釐清因為這個制度的檢討才能夠預防再發我真的是問一個很單純的問題第一"},{"start":173.295,"end":198.572,"text":"抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行就這麼簡單 部長 部長你回答一下原則上醫法令是應該要這樣對阿 依照醫療法就是應該要醫事人員執行嘛所以你可以介入阿 你是可以介入的阿我給你看這個就是學生 我給你看我們要瞭解他整個過程嘛如果的確有發生這種事情當然我們就要究責"},{"start":199.332,"end":222.851,"text":"好我先給你看這個是學校內部這個霸凌的調查報告他講說他給誰抽血沒有醫護執照技術不好再換成誰抽血還有一些學生他是直接把他整個被抽血的過程都錄影下來放到Threads還有把他自己拿著他的血去做離心也放到Threads他把這些事都公開因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了他不再那麼害怕了他願意站出來了"},{"start":227.855,"end":242.38,"text":"這個你就可以介入啊 如果我是部長我直接去找這些學生問說誰幫你抽過血你們醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上欸你不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎"},{"start":243.926,"end":261.324,"text":"你還需要等教育部的調查報告教育部告訴你誰幫誰抽過血然後再來跟你比對你需要這樣子嗎你衛福部跟教育部一樣大一樣大你本來就可以主動介入調查不是嗎違反醫事法醫療法是你們執行的業務欸對嗎"},{"start":267.191,"end":280.566,"text":"如果以人體研究法來講,當然事業主管機關要去做,他的權責是監督、調查還有處罰,還有去懲處但是違反醫療法,違反醫事法令當然我們一定會趕快去了解"},{"start":286.252,"end":299.522,"text":"如果真的有違反醫療相關的法案我們是整個究責啦因為這個有時候跟老師跟PI有關係嘛對不對但是很單純的他被誰抽血這個人是不是醫師人員對你來說應該很簡單整個系統來究責啊"},{"start":305.126,"end":326.216,"text":"我們不能說只有突破某一點因為這個的確我們要確定他抽血的每一個去抽血這個動作的人是誰我們去調查清楚才有辦法去做然後他的原因整個他的來由是怎麼樣整個了解以後我們要知道他的輕重才能夠給予最適當的懲處這樣子"},{"start":329.778,"end":337.954,"text":"好 我是覺得我們現在已經跟教育部合作一起來努力你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎"},{"start":338.919,"end":362.841,"text":"台北我們先尊重世界主管機關他們教育部還在調查所以你在等他們給你名單意思是這樣子我們有含請教育部就是針對我們以涉及可能涉及人體研究法裡面哪幾條的問題我們有含請他們也能夠去調查部長我給你一個建議其實你就是醫療法的主管機關你也可以禁訴執法就看你要不要做而已"},{"start":363.682,"end":371.054,"text":"我還是這樣子介意你啦你其實很快找到這些人問到誰幫他們抽血你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了"},{"start":372.714,"end":393.257,"text":"我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神第一個救責PI第二件事情受試者保護所以在受試者保護的情況下面的時候怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害這件事情所以我們在這個地方我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質第一個"},{"start":393.757,"end":420.488,"text":"校園霸凌案疑似第二件事情我們的人體研究法的違法的部分要就責PI我覺得這是這這件事情應該要去處理的至於其他的細節的部分的話同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是這一個教育部這邊的協同的子計畫這個部分這個是我們可以目前馬上做的我對你們很有信心我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護"},{"start":421.448,"end":441.167,"text":"但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法違規的這些糾察好嗎好再來部長這是很多醫師關心的也是許多基層診所現在給我一些他們的報表去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議這個主決議你是說6月30號以前你要達成健保點值0.95"},{"start":442.668,"end":459.047,"text":"像前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動您接受記者訪問你說非常的有信心那最近這些基層的醫療告訴我說去年第四季他們的點值大概是0.8然後你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9是不是有這件事可不可以給我們一個時間"},{"start":460.809,"end":481.287,"text":"這個補兌已經在進行這個禮拜開始在撥款這個禮拜在撥款那今年第一季他們是有到0.9那第二季也就是您曾經給予的承諾6月30號以前可不可以到0.95這件事情您認為做得到還是會跳票"},{"start":481.687,"end":496.242,"text":"跟委員報告一下第一劑,因為第二劑還沒有出來第一劑我們的一個所有的不管是醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門六個區全部都在0.95%以上,只有台北區是0.94%"},{"start":502.288,"end":510.455,"text":"我這個表上面你在講第二劑還是第一劑整個西醫基層是0.946醫院是0.95快要0.9所以這兩個平均起來在第一劑西醫我們在講中醫跟亞醫就已經到達0.95了那第二劑應該是差不多這樣的水準"},{"start":521.124,"end":548.366,"text":"第二季你現在應該有數據了吧還沒出來我們在這邊是幫他們說說話因為第二季你才開始個別總額的這些限制所以我們希望你不是只透過不管是這個核酸或者是斷頭或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例請問如果你有實際上"},{"start":549.808,"end":555.329,"text":"有這些配置的話你會不會把它拿來補建保點值你要怎麼做你的安排"},{"start":556.471,"end":582.806,"text":"據瞭解所有的一個黨團提出來都很關心到我們醫藥的韌性醫藥的韌性所以這個部分的確是應該是我們面對國際間的一個挑戰裡面的確應該是先補醫藥的韌性那當然因為我們現在的在今年的4月行政會通過就是只要補的在安全準備基金只要是補進來的都可以再用在我們政府覺得需要所以將來"},{"start":584.187,"end":607.887,"text":"如果真的是點子到達不夠的時候當然是可以補啊這個已經明文已經規定了但是我們現在點子跟委員報告一下其實我現在到在議界去看真的大家都覺得相當的欣慰啦已經到達跟以前差很多啦但因為關稅即將來臨嘛我們也擔心原物料會變貴還有川普給予一個這個什麼最惠國要價的政策主席我時間到了嗎"},{"start":613.831,"end":614.632,"text":"好部長問你最後一個問題"},{"start":638.848,"end":641.41,"text":"我想我們衛福部是一個國家的部門政府部門我們所有的政府部門就要創造人民"},{"start":668.117,"end":686.173,"text":"福國利民的一個各種措施嘛所以只要對政府的部門是很負責任的不是短暫的是長期的一個一個能夠穩定的在各方面的保護國家的安全我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容啦你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件嗎你剛剛說福國利民"},{"start":691.497,"end":712.435,"text":"什麼東西的當然以單單某一個方面來講當然我們如果有某一個方面某一項目他對那一個部分的政策當然會有幫助但是是不是會影響到其他的一個國家的整體的發展這個也是政府部門必須要無私的"},{"start":713.315,"end":724.726,"text":"來考慮到以國家整體的發展來處理所以我們非常謹慎的來遵照我們所以你的意思是說你還在評估你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議我們一切都會依法辦理我們會依法辦理謝謝主席謝謝部長 謝謝署長附帶決議是我提的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":286,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時32分）謝謝主席、謝謝官員，也請邱部長，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。部長，這兩天沸沸揚揚的新聞就是師大這一群很可憐的女足球員學生非自願被教練要求成為實驗對象，連續14天配合抽血，有時候一天抽3次，從早上起床一直抽到晚上。昨天我也感到非常的不解，因為林靜儀次長評論說，他對於這件事件很震驚，他非常想知道這麼多學生的血液檢體到哪裡去了，是學校在處理血液檢體嗎？或者是和醫療相關的機構合作？部長，你是不是也一樣對這件事很不解？過了這麼久的時間，我想知道衛福部有哪一些新的資訊呢？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的垂詢，我們聽到這樣的訊息的確非常難過，說實在也很生氣，因為學生受教權、學生人權的維護完全沒有模糊的空間，所以我們非常願意協助事業主管機關去整個了解……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我問你們現在有什麼資訊？"],["邱部長泰源：現在地檢署也去做司法調查，整個了解以後，該究責的我們要嚴辦。"],["陳委員菁徽：我先問一個問題，抽血這件事情是不是要醫事人員來執行？我簡單問這個問題。"],["邱部長泰源：請司長回答一下。"],["劉司長越萍：在醫療機構提供醫療服務的時候一定要是醫事人員，這件事情是無庸置疑。"],["陳委員菁徽：那抽血可以在非醫療機構執行嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：像我們的居家醫療其實有這樣子的一個行為。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是不是醫事人員執行？"],["劉司長越萍：所以我覺得這件事情的重點會回到IRB到底通過什麼？然後這個PI到底有沒有按照IRB的計畫來執行？我覺得以衛福部的立場，我們是人體研究法的主管機關，我們希望、要求所有的事業目的主管機關按照法遵處理，如果他對法遵不清楚的時候，我們其實是做協同，所以在這個事件裡面，教育部的IRB訪查機制到底有沒有什麼問題，這是我們關注的。第二件事情是IRB裡面，特別是臺師大IRB通過的計畫到底是什麼？目前因為整個教育部的案子還在進行當中，並沒有一個完整的報告跟我們講，所以這個地方我們會再跟教育部合作，把它做釐清，因為制度的檢討才能夠預防再犯。"],["陳委員菁徽：我真的是問一個很單純的問題，第一，抽血到底需不需要醫事人員執行？就這麼簡單。部長，你回答一下。"],["邱部長泰源：原則上依法令是應該要這樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊，依照醫療法就是應該要由醫事人員執行，所以你是可以介入的啊！我給你看這個，這是學生……"],["邱部長泰源：我們要了解整個過程，如果的確有發生這種事情，當然我們就要究責。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我先給你看，這個是學校內部霸凌的調查報告，他說這給誰抽血、沒有醫護執照、技術不好再換成誰抽血；還有一些學生是直接把他整個被抽血的過程錄影下來放到Threads；還有他自己拿著血去做離心，把它放到Threads；他把這些事都公開，因為他們現在拿到畢業證書了，不再那麼害怕了，他們願意站出來了，所以你就可以介入啊！如果我是部長，我會直接去找這些學生問：誰幫你抽過血？醫事人員的名單就在你們的手上，你們不是最快就可以知道這些人到底有沒有符合醫事人員的資格嗎？還需要等教育部的調查報告？要由教育部告訴你，誰幫誰抽過血，然後再來跟你比對，你需要這樣子嗎？衛福部跟教育部一樣大，你本來就可以主動介入調查，不是嗎？違反醫療法是你們執行的業務，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果以人體研究法來講，當然事業主管機關的權責是監督、調查還有處罰、懲處，這個部分尊重……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是違反醫療法、違反醫事法令……"],["邱部長泰源：違反醫療法的部分，當然我們一定會趕快去了解，如果真的有違反醫療相關法令，我們是整個究責，因為這個有時候跟老師、跟PI有關係嘛，對不對？"],["陳委員菁徽：但是很單純的，他被誰抽血、這個人是不是醫事人員，對你來說應該很簡單啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我們要究責，要從整個系統來究責，不能只有突破某一點，因為這的確要確定每一個去做抽血這個動作的人是誰，我們調查清楚才有辦法做……"],["陳委員菁徽：那你要……"],["邱部長泰源：他的原因、緣由是怎麼樣，整個了解以後才知道他的輕重，才能夠給予最適當的懲處。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我是覺得，如果……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在已經跟教育部合作，一起來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你已經接觸到這些受害者了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：還沒有，我們先尊重事業主管機關，教育部還在調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你在等他們給你名單，意思是這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有函請教育部，針對可能涉及人體研究法哪幾條的問題，我們有函請他們調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我給你一個建議，其實你就是醫療法的主管機關，你也可以儘速執法，就看你要不要做而已。我還是這樣子建議你，你其實可以很快找到這些人，並問到是誰幫他們抽血，你很快就可以知道他們是不是醫事人員了。"],["劉司長越萍：我覺得在人體研究法裡面有一個很重要的精神，第一個是究責PI；第二件事情是受試者保護，所以在站在受試者保護的情況下，怎麼去approach才不會造成這些受試者的二次傷害，在這個地方，我覺得還是會拉到這個事件的本質，第一個，疑似校園霸凌案；第二件事情，我們人體研究法違法的部分要究責PI，我覺得是這件事應該要去處理的。至於其他的細節，同步進行的是我們醫療機構是不是教育部協同的子計畫的成員，這個部分是我們目前可以馬上做的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我對你們很有信心，我很相信你們可以兼顧他們的隱私跟保護，但是也可以做到你們執行醫療法的違規的糾察，好嗎？","再來，部長，這是很多醫師關心的……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在許多基層診所給我一些他們的報表，去年我們一起簽下了一個主決議，這個主決議是在6月30號以前要達成健保點值0.95，前幾個禮拜我們一起出席活動，您接受記者訪問說您非常有信心。最近基層的醫療告訴我，他們去年第四季的點值大概是0.8，你們是不是這週會開始幫他們補到0.9，是不是有這件事？可不可以給我們一個時間？"],["邱部長泰源：這個補助已經在進行了。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個禮拜開始在撥款？"],["邱部長泰源：已經在撥款了。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個禮拜開始撥款，那今年第一季……"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝大家的關心。"],["陳委員菁徽：今年第一季有到0.9；第二季，也就是您曾經給予的承諾，6月30號以前可不可以到0.95？這件事情你認為做得到，還是會跳票？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告第一季的部分，因為第二季還沒有出來，第一季我們所有的醫院、基層、中醫、牙醫所有的部門，六個區全部都在0.95以上，只有臺北區是0.94……"],["陳委員菁徽：我的這個表上面……"],["邱部長泰源：西醫……"],["陳委員菁徽：你在講第二季還是第一季？"],["邱部長泰源：整個西醫基層是0.946；醫院是0.95快要0.959，所以這兩個平均起來，不要講中醫跟牙醫，第一季西醫就已經到達0.95了，第二季差不多應該是這樣的水準。"],["陳委員菁徽：第二季你現在應該有數據了吧？還沒出來？"],["邱部長泰源：還沒。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們在這邊是幫他們說說話，因為第二季你才開始個別總額限制，所以我們希望你不是只透過核刪、斷頭，或者是個別總額的限制去讓他們達到0.95。我們上禮拜有三讀通過一個特別條例，請問，如果你實際上有這些配置的話，你會不會把它拿來補健保點值？你要怎麼做安排？"],["邱部長泰源：據了解，所有黨團提出來的都很關心醫藥韌性，所以這個部分應該是我們在面對國際間挑戰下，的確是要先補醫藥的韌性，當然我們在今年4月，行政院也通過安全準備基金只要是補進來的，都可以用在政府覺得需要之處，所以將來如果真的點值到達不夠的時候，當然是可以補，這個已經明文規定了。但是跟委員報告一下，其實我現在到醫界去看，對於我們現在的點值，大家真的都覺得相當欣慰，跟以前差很多。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但因為關稅即將來臨，我們也擔心原物料會變貴，還有川普給予一個什麼最惠國藥價的政策……主席，我的時間到了嗎？","好，部長，我問你最後一個問題，上個禮拜我們三讀通過上限5,450億的特別條例，在野黨60票比執政黨44票，並且有兩案附帶決議，第一案是健保基金獲得的撥補預算優先用於增進我國藥品的供應韌性；第二案是挹注健保基金的預算數不得低於各期預算總數之12%。醫界對於這兩個附帶決議都表示高度的重視，那我們想問，你會不會因為執政黨委員都投反對，所以即使通過了、約束了衛福部必須要做這兩個附帶決議，但是會影響到你執行的成果？"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部是國家的一個政府部門，我們所有政府部門就要為人民創造福國利民的各種措施，所以政府部門是很負責任的，不是短暫的，而是長期能夠穩定在各方面保護國家的安全……"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛已經有講這兩個附帶決議的內容，你認為有沒有符合你剛剛講的這些條件？你剛剛說福國利民、永續的……"],["邱部長泰源：對，單單就某一個方面來講，如果有某一項項目對那一個部分的政策有幫助，但其他是不是會影響到國家的整體發展，這也是政府部門必須要無私的考慮國家整體發展，所以我們非常謹慎的遵照……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是你還在評估？你不曉得你有沒有辦法落實這兩個附帶決議？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一切都會依法辦理。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["主席：附帶決議是我提的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["主席：不好意思，今天要控制時間。","繼續我們請王育敏質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b9857c5625b3fe2f6ea217e529aa6299d4c225af1ef4f9e86959b3f69a6de72969f305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:21:43 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麻煩邱部長今天有幾個議題跟您討論但是我還是要先跟您談討就是老師拿分數當武器逼迫學生交出血液這件事情那因為訊息一直進來昨天我看到有一位受害者學生姓簡他出來說他忍耐了四年"},{"start":28.446,"end":30.707,"text":"那跟同一篇報導說市政政見行為已經進行了7年所以我認為是這個學校在包庇教育部在裝睡那衛福部讓你選一個是裝聾還是裝傻你講一下這麼久了"},{"start":47.861,"end":49.783,"text":"這不只是倫理問題他涉及醫療法這個涉及醫療法還有不只倫理問題醫療法跟人體研究法"},{"start":59.239,"end":64.202,"text":"是我們是法的主管機關然後這個部分從研究的一個督導考核以及調查其實是世衛主管機關但是有涉及醫療法部林次長他又對接受媒體採訪的時候他有說就是監察院在調查那教育部等等也是在跟學校在調查然後等這個之後"},{"start":83.313,"end":88.102,"text":"衛福部再來做一次處理但是教育部已經完成了他有行政處罰都已經裁定了我就不再多談那請問衛福部現在要處理了嗎"},{"start":94.833,"end":112.044,"text":"是的我想教育部以及像地檢署也做資料調查所以這個部分我們可以期盼能夠調查得更清楚那衛福部現在要做什麼我們還是要堅持學生的人權以及學生的受教權的傷害絕對不能受到傷害所以如果以這樣的事件來講我們當然整體都要來檢討整個機制是不是能夠更加的落實所以我們第一個我們會把"},{"start":123.012,"end":131.541,"text":"針對受害的學生我們昨天也開過相關的會議準備要來保護他的身心健康你要積極在做這件事對 身心健康我們會提供對 我意思就是說先最急的是趕快照顧這些受害的家屬以及他們的受教權還有他們的家庭因為這樣的衝刺"},{"start":142.113,"end":144.594,"text":"然後我們會去跟相關的機關來檢討整個是不是能夠在連結方面更加的落實因為那個市長在這裡但是那個16號之後醫師是副市長劉副市長他在回答受訪時而講他當時認為研究中的抽血不是醫療行為也不是醫療輔助行為"},{"start":161.644,"end":174.156,"text":"但是因為他有提到說因為有關受試者的保護他覺得執行這個還是要醫護人員或學校的醫護人員或是醫檢室來執行部長我想問你同意嗎研究中的抽血不是醫療行為或不是醫療輔助行為您同意這個說法嗎"},{"start":175.576,"end":202.474,"text":"我想我們一切都要按照醫師法規你同不同意這個說法他說出來了副司長說出來了所以我就從國衛院喔他有關這個倫理委員會的審查紀錄中找到了一個我隨機去找了一個需要抽血的試驗那國衛院的這個倫理委員會有講到說抽血就是屬於醫療行為醫療輔助行為必須由具有執照的醫護人員來執行而且需要在醫療場所那即便是研究案也不例外所以我想請問部長是醫事師副司長的說法錯了"},{"start":205.916,"end":217.042,"text":"還是國務院說法有誤呢?我想在醫療醫療法這個部分當然是很清楚他抽選是不是醫療行為或醫療輔助行為?因為這個部分不是在醫療及格的執行所以我們要了解一下醫療行為還是醫療輔助行為?他說都不是"},{"start":227.108,"end":246.482,"text":"我覺得這件事情要拆開兩個層面來講因為今天是研究案裡面他我覺得從頭到尾這件事情最大的問題會在IRB到底通過了什麼這個學校到底那個執行的PA到底做了什麼這問題的癥結在這邊這是第一件事第二件事情我們家副市長講的是最好的照顧會是什麼"},{"start":249.444,"end":272.135,"text":"我覺得這兩塊是不一樣的最好的照顧在Pollocall裡面最好是醫事人員的這件事情可是研究案裡面在這個案子我們才會覺得剛剛委員垂詢說很像這邊我們衛福部要做什麼其實是每一個事業目的主管機關到底在他們所委託的兩位都是醫師"},{"start":273.255,"end":290.474,"text":"因為這個抽血有一點雖然說不是傷害但是這個侵入性的一個做法啦所以我希望衛婦是不是以後對於相關的這個研究案要設有這個查核跟檢舉機制可以嗎這我們會督導各個事業目的主管機關去做把那個標準拉一致"},{"start":290.794,"end":319.136,"text":"因為現在審查出去的東西每一個事業目的主管機關都有委託審查會照價值還嚴重喔好好就是說請你們繼續就是要有一些監察跟後來的集合制度好謝謝 部長那個衛福部推動三班互併筆啦我知道你最怕這幾位啦月底他首度撥付了獎勵金你知道他總共撥付了多少錢嗎到現在是5.96億已經到好我的好謝謝那既然放了獎勵金表示有改善喔"},{"start":319.936,"end":333.261,"text":"是不是?部長這樣有改善嗎?你錢都搬下去了,有沒有改善?我們這個三半負分比的獎勵金花下去以後也要求他要按照KPI來做整個用在護理醫生的狀況我這幾天上網去查,結果發現不管是健保署的網站或是照護師的網站上都查不到今年上半年的三半負分比資料現在都77萬了,那為什麼資料還沒有上線呢?"},{"start":348.126,"end":361.175,"text":"怕規避監督嗎 沒有資料耶沒有 我們廠長在這邊也跟大家報告過我們整個醫學中心已經到達三百戶病予合乎的已經六成了就是上網 你上網沒有資料 以前有 現在斷掉了市長報告一下"},{"start":364.777,"end":383.831,"text":"我們目前的資料是由醫院做填寶我知道醫院 但是你們要催促現在目前健保署的BPM是公告到12月沒有錯但是一到近年啦 已經半年啦 你沒有資料就是沒有資料好嗎沒有資料就是沒有資料最近就漏出來"},{"start":386.593,"end":389.315,"text":"那部長您本身是資歷豐厚的醫師我想請問部長如果現在要你去值班OK嗎?只要人民健康需要我上山下海都可以你可以值班喔那我請問昭偉昭偉您現在可以去值班嗎?職業班嗎?昭偉可能常常在值班"},{"start":407.943,"end":428.569,"text":"還是有時候守第一線不過體力是有差但是你看這張圖因為明年8月要進來兒科這個是2月26日的報導對外招聘幾乎乏人問津某些中南部的醫學中心55到60歲的主治醫師甚至必須在醫院睡覺值班就很類似能力當然不是做醫師但是他的行為必須像住院醫師一樣的來處理"},{"start":432.23,"end":448.606,"text":"那現在就很多組織醫師可能去招不到人嘛斷崖嘛就是說整個這個是人力斷崖那很多組織醫師去開業或是說林聽醫師覺得說少子化他覺得未來就是夕陽工業他就沒有投入這個領域嘛那健保我知道之前健保署也會編列預算想要調高這個極重難科別的支付"},{"start":451.909,"end":467.367,"text":"那144也有在監測專科醫師的人數那我可不可以請報告一下就是健保署這邊我想知道這個策略有沒有成功呢你調高致富標準有沒有增加那144的監測指標是什麼有沒有如所欲起"},{"start":467.927,"end":486.81,"text":"我先跟委員做報告 再請兩位署長跟市長報告一下第一個就是說我們從健保署當然加成他的給護不管是在兒科的診察會 譬如說我們加成3%那先增加一個他給醫院有一定的力量嘛 量能嘛那在醫事室方面也用兒童的一個照護的一個計畫"},{"start":487.691,"end":501.045,"text":"你預期什麼時候會看到效果?其實讓這樣的我們會看到其實很多醫院都針對集中男患症真的有加薪啦那自己加薪以後是不是外界的環境這個牽涉到比較複雜我們當然有在督導因為沒有兒科醫師就不得了了嘛對當然我們今年的領證人數還到達123人是每年的榮爾是300人"},{"start":510.094,"end":518.021,"text":"那沒有心血進來啊 人家都七歲都還要值班啊我們當然一定要督導整個進來的心血署長你有沒有資料 你這樣發有沒有你monitor你在監測 還是司長你在監測有沒有進步這幾個補助的科有沒有進步 有沒有進步就簡單回答一下跟委員報告 確實這個兒科的困境現在是開業的比較多 留在醫院的比較少"},{"start":535.257,"end":539.299,"text":"所以我們現在努力的目標是如何讓兒科醫師留在醫院請你繼續往這個方向去走好嗎那部長我還在請教你醫師加班費一加班降低所得稅這很多人期待但是他們覺得有可能是因為看得到吃不到為什麼呢因為醫師大家都認為他是責任制所以對加班的這個定義是模糊的"},{"start":554.724,"end":558.026,"text":"那譬如外科醫師手術隨時後他去寫報告那算不算在工作通訊軟體這麼發達那醫師在回覆這個護理站的訊息或家屬訊息算不算PGY算不算等等等等那財政部今天是來謝次長我有看到這個您一邊上來我一邊談我有看到"},{"start":572.835,"end":598.55,"text":"複稅署在新聞上回應說相關法規需要由主管機關法定就是說法定來訂定延長工作時間及規定的標準也要為服務用函式的方式去通案處理或是憲保署要修法在全民健保法醫療服務機構及管理特別局管理辦法才能夠進行跨部會的討論我希望這個財政部是不是可以更積極努力就是兩個跨部門來處理是不是盡可能如果你們要做這件事盡可能讓明年報稅的時候這個時間讓醫師就可以去試用"},{"start":602.393,"end":623.331,"text":"為了留住醫院的人力 真的我覺得這個是需要來努力的做這是你們提出來的方法 試試看嘛那另外就是說比較困難科別 譬如說你們可以借清楚比如小兒科 剛剛我提到小兒科可不可以適度的拉高那個上限就是這個免稅 加班免稅的上限我們都可以來研議好 謝謝啦 您還沒有站起來我只好先離開了因為今天有安安演習謝謝主席 謝謝兩位所長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":205,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時21分）謝謝主席，麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：邱部長，請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。今天有幾個議題跟您討論，但是我還是要先跟您談有關老師拿分數當武器，逼迫學生交出血液這件事情，因為訊息一直進來，昨天我看到有一位受害者學生，姓簡，他出來說他忍耐了4年，同一篇報導說事實上這樣的行為已經進行了7年，所以我認為是學校在包庇；教育部在裝睡；衛福部，讓你選一個，是裝聾還是裝傻？你選一下啦，很久了！部長，這不只是倫理問題耶，它涉及醫療法……"],["邱部長泰源：我們依權責、依法來辦理。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個涉及醫療法，不只倫理問題，還有醫療法跟人體研究法，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以很久了嘛，7年了。"],["邱部長泰源：我們是法的主管機關，這個部分從研究的督導、考核以及調查，其實是事業主管機關要去做。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，但是有涉及醫療法的部分。部長，林次長接受媒體採訪的時候有說，監察院在調查，教育部等等也是跟學校在調查，等這個完成之後，衛福部再來做處理，但是教育部已經完成調查了，行政處罰都已經裁定了，我就不再多談。請問衛福部現在要處理了嗎？怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，我想教育部以及……地檢署也在做司法調查，所以這個部分我們期盼能夠調查得更清楚。"],["陳委員昭姿：衛福部現在要做什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我們還是要堅持學生的人權以及學生的受教權絕對不能受到傷害。"],["陳委員昭姿：堅持不夠啊！你現在要做什麼？你的action是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：以這樣的事件來講，我們當然整體都要來檢討整個機制是不是能夠更加落實，所以第一個，針對受害的學生，我們昨天也開過相關的會議，怎麼樣來保護他的身心健康……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我的意思是說你要積極做這件事，有很多學生；太多年，7年喔！"],["邱部長泰源：對，我的意思是說，最急的是要趕快照顧這些受害者以及他們的受教權，還有他們的家庭因為這樣的衝擊……"],["陳委員昭姿：有一個學生要退學。"],["邱部長泰源：然後我們會去跟相關的機關來檢討整個流程，是不是能夠在連結方面更加落實。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我要請問，因為司長也在這裡，醫事司劉副司長在16號受訪時有提到，他認為研究中的抽血不是醫療行為，也不是醫療輔助行為，但是他有提到因為攸關受試者保護，他覺得執行的部分還是要由學校的醫護人員或是醫檢師來執行。部長，我想問你同意嗎？研究中的抽血不是醫療行為或不是醫療輔助行為，您同意這個說法嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們一切都要按照醫事法規……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是，你同不同意這個說法？他說出來了，副司長說出來了。所以我就從國衛院的倫理委員會審查會議紀錄中隨機找了一個需要抽血的試驗，國衛院的倫理委員會有講到抽血就是屬於醫療輔助行為，必須由具有執照的醫護人員來執行，而且需要在醫療場所，即便是研究案也不例外。所以我想請問部長，是醫事司副司長的說法錯了，還是國衛院說法有誤呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想在醫療法這個部分當然是很清楚……"],["陳委員昭姿：抽血是不是醫療行為或醫療輔助行為？"],["邱部長泰源：因為這個部分不是在醫療機構執行，所以我們要去了解一下。"],["陳委員昭姿：不然司長你講啦，這是副司長受訪講的，到底是不是醫療行為還是醫療輔助行為，他說都不是。"],["劉司長越萍：我覺得這件事情要拆開兩個層面來講，因為今天是在研究案裡面，我覺得從頭到尾這件事情最大的問題會在IRB到底通過了什麼？這個學校的這個執行PI到底做了什麼？問題的癥結在這邊，這是第一件事；第二件事情，我們副司長講的是，最好的照顧會是什麼……"],["陳委員昭姿：司長抱歉，就是抽血啊！"],["劉司長越萍：我覺得這兩塊是不一樣的，最好的照顧在protocol裡面最好是醫事人員；可是在研究案、在這個案子裡面，剛剛委員垂詢橫向的這邊、我們衛福部要做什麼？其實每一個事業目的主管機關到底在他們所委託的……"],["陳委員昭姿：兩位都是醫師，抽血雖然不是傷害，但是侵入性的作法，所以我希望衛福部以後對於相關研究案要設有查核跟檢舉機制，可以嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：這部分我們會督導各個事業目的主管機關去做，把那個標準拉一致，因為現在審查出去的東西，每一個事業目的主管機關都有委託給審查會……"],["陳委員昭姿：這比無照駕駛還嚴重！好，請你們繼續有一些監察跟後續的稽核制度。","部長，衛福部推動三班護病比，我知道你最怕聽到這句話，6月底首度撥付了獎勵金，你知道總共撥付了多少錢嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：到現在是5.96億。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝，既然發了獎勵金，表示有改善，是不是？部長，錢都發下去了，有沒有改善？數字上有沒有改善？"],["邱部長泰源：我們三班護病比的獎勵金發下去以後，也要求他要按照KPI來做，且只能用在護理提升的狀況。"],["陳委員昭姿：我這幾天上網去查，結果發現不管是健保署的網站或是照護司的網站上都查不到今年上半年的三班護病比資料，現在都7月17日了，為什麼資料還沒有上線呢？你是規避監督嗎？沒有資料耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我們常常在這邊跟大家報告，我們整個醫學中心達到三班護病比的已經有六成了。"],["陳委員昭姿：上網查沒有資料，以前有，現在斷掉了！部長，兩週內能處理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：司長報告一下。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們目前的資料是由醫院做填報。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道是醫院，但是你沒有催促啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：是次次月，目前健保署的VPN是公告到12月沒有錯，但是……"],["陳委員昭姿：快一點啦，已經半年了，沒有資料就是沒有資料！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：有一些資訊系統最近就弄出來了，那是今年的，但去年的都有。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，請立刻，我們會追蹤這件事，謝謝。","部長，您本身是資歷豐厚的醫師，我想請問部長，如果現在要你去值班，OK嗎？像住院醫師那樣，你OK嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：只要人民健康需要，我上山下海都願意。"],["陳委員昭姿：你可以喔，你可以值班喔？那我請問召委，召委，您現在可以去值班、值夜班嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：召委可能常常在值班。"],["主席：有時候還是有守第一線，不過體力有差。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是你看這個圖，這個是2月26日的報導：「明年8月要進來兒科，對外招聘幾乎乏人問津，某些中南部的醫學中心，55到60歲的主治醫師甚至必須在醫院睡覺值班」，類似這樣，他的能力當然不是住院醫師，但是他的行為必須像住院醫師一樣來處理。","現在很多主治醫師都招不到人，整個是人力斷崖！很多主治醫師去開業了，或者年輕醫師覺得少子化，他覺得未來是夕陽產業就沒有投入這個領域。我知道之前健保署也會編列預算，想要調高急重難科別的支付，醫事司也有在監測專科醫師的人數。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：我請健保署報告一下，我想知道這個策略有沒有成功呢？你調高支付標準有沒有增加？醫事司的監測指標是什麼，有沒有如所預期？簡單說明。"],["邱部長泰源：我先跟委員做報告，再請兩位署長跟司長報告。第一個，我們從健保署加成他的給付，不管是在兒科的診察費，譬如說我們加了13%。"],["陳委員昭姿：那有沒有效果？"],["邱部長泰源：就是先增加，給醫院有一定的量能；在醫事司方面，也用一個兒童照護計畫。"],["陳委員昭姿：你預期什麼時候會看到效果？"],["邱部長泰源：我們看到很多醫院針對急重難罕症真的都有加薪，至於加薪以後，是不是外界的環境……這個牽涉到的比較複雜，我們當然有在督導。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為沒有兒科醫師就不得了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：對，當然，我們今年的領證人數還到達123人，每年的容額是……"],["陳委員昭姿：那是領證，但是沒有新血進來啊，到60歲、70歲都還要值班！"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然一定要督導整個進來的新血。"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦，部長。署長，你有沒有資料？你這樣發有沒有在監測？還是司長在監測？有沒有進步？這幾個補助的科有沒有進步？簡單回答一下就好，因為今天時間比較少。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，確實兒科的困境是現在開業的比較多、留在醫院的比較少，所以我們現在努力的目標是如何讓兒科醫師留在醫院。"],["陳委員昭姿：請你繼續往這個方向走，好嗎？"],["石署長崇良：好，是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我還要再請教你有關醫師加班費降低所得稅，這部分很多人期待，但是他們覺得有可能是看得到、吃不到，為什麼呢？因為大家都認為醫師是責任制，所以對加班的定義是模糊的，譬如外科醫師手術後去寫報告，那算不算在工作？通訊軟體這麼發達，醫師回復護理站的訊息或家屬訊息算不算？PGY算不算？","財政部今天是謝次長來，您一邊上來、我一邊談，我有看到賦稅署在新聞上回應，相關法規需要由主管機關以法令來訂定延長工作時間及規定標準，也要衛福部用函釋的方式去通案處理，或是健保署要修訂全民健康保險醫事服務機構特約及管理辦法，才能夠進行跨部會討論。我希望財政部可以更積極努力，就是兩個跨部門來處理，如果你們要做這件事，儘可能讓明年報稅的時候就可以讓醫師適用，這是第一個。"],["邱部長泰源：為了留住醫院的人力，我覺得這個真的需要努力來做，這是一件很重要的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是你們提出來的方法，試試看嘛。另外，關於比較困難科別，你們最清楚，譬如說小兒科、剛剛我提到小兒科，可不可以適度地拉高加班免稅的上限？"],["邱部長泰源：我們都可以來研議。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。您還沒有站起來，我只好先離開了，因為今天有萬安演習。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，這個很重要，我們會研議，財政部一直跟我們在研議。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝主席、謝謝兩位首長。"],["主席：這個等一下我會接著問，你放心。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長、署長。","接續我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}},{"id":"163238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c62363807c51931515570213a0645a397e529aa6299d4c2221a54940ed0e9b379af2e74e98a9ffb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:42:08 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我先請我們洪森漢部長"},{"start":20.327,"end":41.241,"text":"邱院長部長好那我想請問一下這次台電員工搶修電力設備這個設施遭受電擊的公安這個職災的事件你們職安署南區職安中心昨天有去現場做這個勞檢發現現場個人防護具確實沒有使用沒有戴絕緣手套所以遭電擊是嗎"},{"start":44.825,"end":66.838,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子我們南區中心接獲報告以後有去釐清整個災害發生的原因那初步來看的話在台電公司平常在做這樣的一個維修作業或這個修復作業基本上它有完整的一個SOP但是在因為在這次的一個緊急搶救的時候可能在聯繫協調的問題造成這個我們這個離災勞工他誤以為這條線是已經斷電了"},{"start":73.502,"end":98.698,"text":"所以他沒有佩戴這個防護手套所以這樣子聽起來是誰的責任基本上在治安法上面就是因為你們昨天的報告你們昨天的報告是說聽起來很好聽但是就是說一套看起來很客觀很溫和的話術來暗示的是勞工自己沒做好防護我覺得這個對於我們的基層的這個台電員工這個不太公平"},{"start":99.699,"end":109.988,"text":"那當然我們沒有認為是歸咎於勞工個人的問題那這樣最好 當然啦我們當然都是發聲的我們當然現在是解決問題當然我覺得對受傷這個台電員工我們要更加的這個先照顧人家還在醫院那這個時候當然我覺得剛剛你講對了那個潰線他為什麼會有電那條線為什麼沒有斷電有去查了嗎"},{"start":131.207,"end":149.1,"text":"跟委員報告 初步了解原因是這樣那細部我們還要繼續做職業階段的調查那什麼時候才能夠出來你現在不出來因為南部現在幾乎還在搶救對不對所以你這個原因不找出來那未來是不是還是不能保證不會發生這樣的事情啊"},{"start":152.185,"end":179.635,"text":"那個邱委員當然我們都希望不過的確現在很多的部分還在還在調查中但是我想還是很清楚我們希望台電在這個當然替我們這麼多的南部的災民盡快的來救災這部分我們很謝謝可是也希望台電也要同時也能夠把這個作業的安全給做好我想這這個是南部現在很清楚的立場是不是因為我在想是不是因為台電"},{"start":180.695,"end":192.54,"text":"他因為要搶著給我們這些民眾用電所以這個狀況造成了今天這個結果沒有做好一個SOP的一個流程"},{"start":193.858,"end":218.866,"text":"我想現在當然台電跟台電的員工們現在當然很著急著想要完成來協助我們災民這個恢復原本生活的這樣的任務我覺得他們這個心是很著急的我知道因為大家受災戶這些他們當然很著急當然我知道台電也很認真可是我覺得在做這個事情的時候我們該做的防護該做的一定的這個流程還是要做不能因為急著"},{"start":219.406,"end":244.095,"text":"要幫這個我們這個受災戶復電然後用我們台電員工的這個生命去來換電這個是非常非常不得當然我們希望能夠兼顧近早的復電我想這是全民的希望包括南部我們災民的希望但也希望台電同時要把這個作業安全給兼顧給做好我覺得這個部分的兼顧還有一點我要提醒就是說這些台電員工"},{"start":245.015,"end":274.016,"text":"或者是外包員工連續搶修這麼多天在這個搶修期間是不是出現工時嚴重超標的問題是這個最長工時是多少我希望你們勞檢局你去查了沒有我想我們有來查其實就是他其實會有一個因為天災等等的原因所以或突發狀況所以這個需要做相關的通報那就我們目前去查查台電公司是有針對我們的地方政府有來做通報"},{"start":274.716,"end":280.705,"text":"好啦我希望大家同理心啦好不好好那請部長休息我們請這個邱部長"},{"start":285.7,"end":309.951,"text":"委員好部長好總統府有健康台灣推動委員會的副召集人陳志宏教授在衡量醫療體系氣候韌性的推薦序就說了台灣的醫療體系在面對極端氣候的時候有很多先天體質不良的問題包括第一個急救跟慢性疾病照顧很容易中斷病人要去醫院要轉診"},{"start":311.132,"end":334.383,"text":"碰到災難他就會直接卡死那第二個資源調度不容易尤其是偏鄉根本等不到人也等不到設備像疫苗血液這些冷鏈保存的物資一旦斷電物流停擺就會立刻出現問題那第四個最嚴重的是人力我們的醫護早就過勞了還要在災後連續上陣根本撐不久"},{"start":335.143,"end":360.068,"text":"這就讓我不得不再問一次我們賴清德總統在2023年選舉期間明明公開承認兩年內要完成三班護病筆這個入法但是你們您在7月14日接受訪問的時候說醫院人力還不夠先入法會引起不一樣的做法所以我們慢慢鼓勵慢慢努力所以我想請部長我要你講清楚這兩年內的承諾會實施嗎"},{"start":364.289,"end":380.002,"text":"好 謝謝委員的推行 直出我們台灣醫療體系有很多困境也感謝委員一直關心 怎麼樣來改善這個部分我們在說為什麼會推動 健康台灣這樣的一個計畫那個不用講了 你就直接問我說 兩年內"},{"start":384.345,"end":406.587,"text":"裡面一個很重要的就是我們增加賦予的人力其中一個就是三班互併比的一個鼓勵我們現在的制度是鼓勵先行隨著在標竿學習在法治化不然我還是不要繞那麼遠我就問一句嘛那兩年內有辦法做到嗎因為"},{"start":410.288,"end":434.42,"text":"跟委員報告,這個因為要牽涉到我們,要人力夠如果是你的兩年內是從什麼時候算?明年的520能做到嗎?所以你現在...總統已經指示一個政策的方向我聽你講,你也不敢保證明年的520以前會入法,對吧?"},{"start":435.399,"end":459.947,"text":"因為要讓他那個議院 因為議院還是要讓他慢慢的那總統說的兩年內是他是認真的還是隨便講講來騙選票用的這個政策是非常重要的一個方向我們也全力以赴我知道你們都在努力啦 可是我問的時候我要問的是這句話有沒有兌現的一個機制 比如說時程"},{"start":461.41,"end":465.479,"text":"進度 你們有自己給定自己一個標準嗎一個時程嗎"},{"start":468.083,"end":483.272,"text":"因為我們要定標準是比較容易但是要如何讓他真的順利來進行不影響到人民照顧的一個健康的權利包括很多噴箱今天圖千祺委員也提到我們賴總統說他兩年內要入法那如果做不到這樣壓時間隨便承諾還是您認為總統的政見不重要我們一定一步一步的往總統的政見來落實來實現但是他講兩年內"},{"start":494.84,"end":512.301,"text":"那時間上我們會把它做得更周延因為如果只是鼓勵沒有進度這就不叫政見一定有進度現在是基層護理師他希望有一個答案那你不敢正面回答他們不敢回答那兩年內三班護病比入法做得到還是做不到我就知道這個嘛"},{"start":516.158,"end":537.033,"text":"我們會努力啊,而且是真的一直在努力從現在的鼓勵,剛剛也有報告過了那現在有進度嗎?我先講,你有進度嗎?比如說我們經過這陣子的努力,我們的醫學中心可以達到六成已經達到三萬富分比你剛剛講的是,你是發用獎勵的方式嘛,對不對?"},{"start":540.315,"end":566.94,"text":"那這個獎勵方式就是讓醫院你發了5.47億這個獎勵金沒有錯但錄法進度這個幾乎是零我知道衛福部花了很多的心力那推出這個獎勵機制鼓勵醫院改善排班但是一個很核心的問題如果今天獎金可以取代錄法那當初我們就不應該這個要講說這個兩年內要錄法那我知道這一次有363家醫院拿到三班護病費的獎勵金"},{"start":568.88,"end":597.179,"text":"但這個獎勵金的門檻有兩班達標就可以領我知道你們的規定是這樣那所以我想了解過去過去一年裡三班都都達標的護病比等於是完整達標的醫院有幾家三班不是兩班這個請市長回答一下我們有三個層級那這個醫學中心醫學中心大概可以達到五層以上那區醫院大概是"},{"start":599.588,"end":621.493,"text":"35%到45%之間那地區醫院的話大概可以85%到90%之間可以達到好那另外有27家沒有領到我看了一下其中有5家是我們不立院這是不是代表我們直接在管理的不立院我們都沒有辦法來配合你們有去了解這個原因嗎"},{"start":622.193,"end":645.519,"text":"有,那部立院因為他比較有特別的任務,包括社區各方面的人力所以他的護理人力會比較需要配合社區整個國家的政策所以他在達標上會比較辛苦一點,但是這個我們都會給予支持來"},{"start":646.559,"end":669.798,"text":"因為我還要再問一個就是說你這些獎勵發下去之後我剛剛有聽到你說讓各醫院自己去調配去發放那我更關心的是我們護理留言到底有沒有領到這個獎金他們到底領到了多少他們領到現在直接領到的當然就是月班獎獎勵金你確定他們都拿到嗎這個沒有問題這個如果沒有拿到就"},{"start":672.358,"end":697.074,"text":"這個結論沒有問題不要變成口號啦因為這個問題其實是非常嚴重的我們台灣的現在的狀況醫療狀況真的真的是非常緊急隨時都可能爆掉那我們不希望我們希望好這個護理人員能夠好好留下來工作那給他們一個更好的一個待遇這個我覺得衛福部要趕快來想辦法我們有十二個措施一直在改善這樣的一個對我還是要那句話我希望部長剛剛講的入法"},{"start":700.953,"end":701.859,"text":"你的任內會不會 我們賴總統任內會不會完成"},{"start":704.363,"end":732.564,"text":"你直接給我答案就好我想應該可以法制化可以嗎?會達到法制化你能答應嗎?你能保證嗎?我們會全力以赴好謝謝最後一個再問一下我們賴清德總統說要打造健康台灣結果現在充滿漏洞的實驗地域先蓋好這個地域就是你們每一個部會親手施工集體完成的成果那台大女這個女卒台視大女卒被強迫抽血做研究那"},{"start":733.385,"end":748.348,"text":"我們衛福部指出教育部要依法辦理那我覺得很奇怪就是人體研究法的機關不是在衛福部嗎你們林靜儀次長又在臉書撇清衛福部責任你們都是醫生你看不出來這抽血行為是有問題的嗎"},{"start":749.839,"end":766.278,"text":"我想這個部分早上也有報告跟大家報告過第一個就是說如果以人體研究法那當然是衛護部的那個主管那至於人體研究的一個就是他的監督、實行或者是"},{"start":767.139,"end":783.938,"text":"可是他這樣就不是違反你們的規定嗎是由研究機構的事業主管機關所以學術機關你是不管的他們要怎麼玩都可以啊我們是尊重事業主管機關去做調查那你立這個法是幹什麼呢我們這個法就是製造一個就是來"},{"start":785.96,"end":808.76,"text":"那個法然後我們讓 定了相關的規定然後讓世衛主管機關他們去執行我們院長都說 衛福部要負該負的責任那你覺得衛福部接下來要做什麼好 我們第一個我們當然學生的人權跟社教權保護這是絕對不容模糊的第二個我們讓路之急就是趕快"},{"start":810.141,"end":820.271,"text":"把學生的受教權能夠看他能不能保護第二個就是他們的身心狀況我們也啟動了心理健康方面的系統那台灣現在到底還有多少這種人體實驗人體實驗是沒有在醫療場所進行的有幾個"},{"start":828.286,"end":849.787,"text":"這個可能要去了解一下對我覺得部長這是你的職務這是你的業務範圍所以我覺得你應該要全權掌握吧因為這樣的實驗會觸犯的法律包含我唸給你聽醫師法、護理人員法、人體研究法、感染管制相關法規、傳染病防治這些都是衛福部主管的範圍"},{"start":850.968,"end":858.012,"text":"所以不要把這個事情都推給教育部我們現在是主持人他有沒有按照當時你去嚴格執行如果有牽涉到相關的法令我們當然一定嚴格執行謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時42分）主席好，我先請洪申翰部長。"],["主席：洪部長請。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員早。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我想請問一下，這次台電員工搶修電力設備遭受電擊的工安職災事件，你們職安署南區職安中心昨天有去現場做勞檢，發現現場個人防護具確實沒有使用，沒有戴絕緣手套，所以遭電擊，是嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這個案子在我們南區中心接獲報告以後，有去釐清整個災害發生的原因，初步來看的話，台電公司平常在做這樣的維修作業或修復作業，基本上它有完整的SOP，但是因為在這一次緊急搶救的時候，可能是聯繫協調的問題，造成我們的罹災勞工他誤以為這條線已經斷電了，所以他沒有配戴防護手套。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這樣子聽起來是誰的責任？"],["林署長毓堂：基本上在職安法上面都是雇主的責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們昨天的報告聽起來很好聽啦！說了一套看起來很客觀、很溫和的話術，來暗示是勞工自己沒做好防護，我覺得這個對於我們基層的台電員工不太公平啦！那當然……"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員，我們沒有認為是歸咎於勞工個人的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那這樣最好。"],["洪部長申翰：我想職安法的精神，當然都是雇主的責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：既然發生了，當然現在是解決問題，我覺得對受傷的台電員工，我們要更加地照顧，人家還在醫院，這個時候當然……我覺得剛剛你講對了，那個饋線它為什麼會有電？那條線為什麼沒有斷電？有去查了嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，初步了解原因是這樣，細部我們還要繼續做職業災害的調查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，什麼時候才能夠出來？"],["林署長毓堂：我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在不找出來，因為南部現在幾乎還在搶救，對不對？所以你這個原因不找出來，那未來是不是還是不能保證不會發生這樣的事情？"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員，當然我們都希望能儘快，不過的確現在很多的部分還在調查中，但是我想還是很清楚的，台電替我們這麼多的南部災民儘快的來救災，這部分我們很謝謝，可是也希望台電同時也能把作業安全給做好，我想這是勞動部現在很清楚的立場。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我在想，是不是因為台電要搶著給民眾用電，沒有做好SOP的流程，所以這個狀況造成了今天的這個結果？"],["洪部長申翰：我想台電跟台電的員工們現在當然很著急想完成協助災民恢復原本生活的任務，我覺得他們心裡是很著急的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，因為受災戶他們當然很著急，但我也知道台電也很認真，可是我覺得在做這個事情的時候，我們該做的防護，該做的、一定的流程也還是要做，不能因為急著要幫受災戶復電，就用台電員工的生命去換電，這個是非常不好的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們當然希望能夠兼顧並儘早復電，我想這是全民的希望，也是南部災民的希望，但也希望台電同時要兼顧做好作業安全，我覺得這個部分……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還有一點我要提醒，這些台電員工或外包員工連續搶修這麼多天，在這個搶修期間是不是有出現工時嚴重超標的問題？最長工時是多少？我希望你們勞檢局……你去查了沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：我們有查，它其實會因為天災等等原因或突發狀況須要做相關的通報，就我們目前去查察，台電公司是有針對地方政府去通報的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望大家要有同理心，好不好？請部長回座休息，我們請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。總統府健康臺灣推動委員會的副召集人陳志鴻教授在「衡量醫療體系氣候韌性」的推薦序說，臺灣的醫療體系在面對極端氣候的時候，有很多先天體質不良的問題，包括了第一個，急救跟慢性疾病的照顧很容易中斷，病人要去醫院、要轉診碰到災難就會直接卡死；第二個，資源調度不容易，尤其是偏鄉，根本等不到人，也等不到設備，像疫苗、血液這些要冷鏈保存的物資一旦斷電、物流停擺就會立刻出現問題；第四個，最嚴重的是人力，我們的醫護早就過勞了，還要在災後連續上陣，根本撐不久。這就讓我不得不再問一次，賴清德總統在2023年的選舉期間明明公開承認要在兩年內完成三班護病比入法，但是您在7月14日接受訪問的時候說，醫院人力還不夠，先入法會引起不一樣的作法，所以要慢慢鼓勵、慢慢努力。我想請部長講清楚，對於「兩年內」的承諾會實施嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的垂詢，也指出了我們臺灣醫療體系的很多困境，感謝委員一直關心怎麼改善這個部分，我們之所以要推動健康臺灣這樣的計畫，就是要整體性地……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那個不用講了，你就直接告訴我兩年內……"],["邱部長泰源：這裡面有個很重要的就是我們要增加護理的人力，其中一個就是三班護病比的鼓勵，我們現在的制度是鼓勵先行，隨著標竿學習然後再法制化。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，還是不要繞那麼遠啦！我就問一句，兩年內有辦法做到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，因為這個牽涉到人力要夠，我們現在有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你的兩年內是從什麼時候算起的？明年的520能做到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們總統已經指出了一個政策的方向……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，我聽你講，但你也不敢保證明年520以前會入法，對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：因為醫院還是要讓它慢慢去……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那總統說的兩年內是認真的，還是隨便講講來騙選票用的？"],["邱部長泰源：這個政策是非常重要的方向，我們也會全力以赴。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道你們都在努力，可是我要問的是，這句話有沒有兌現的機制？譬如說時程、進度，你們有訂個標準給自己嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們要訂標準是比較容易，但是要如何讓它真的順利進行而不影響到照顧人民健康的權益，包括很多偏鄉，今天涂權吉委員也提到很多偏鄉……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！我們賴總統說了，要在兩年內入法，如果做不到就押時間隨便承諾，還是您認為總統的政見不重要？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定會一步、一步地往總統的政見去實現。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是他講「兩年」，你有辦法做到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：時間上……我們會把它做得更周延。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為如果只是鼓勵而沒有進度就不叫政見了。"],["邱部長泰源：一定有進度。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在是基層護理師希望要有一個答案，你不敢正面回答他們，也不敢回答兩年內三班護病比入法做得到還是做不到，我要的只有這個嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會努力呀！而且是真的一直在努力，從現在的鼓勵措施……剛剛也有報告過了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在有進度嗎？就先講，你有進度嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：譬如說，我們經過這陣子的努力……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這是努力嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們的醫學中心有六成可以達到三班護病比，區域醫院……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛講，你是用獎勵的方式，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對，這個獎勵的方式就是讓醫院……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你發了5.47億的獎勵金沒有錯，但入法進度幾乎是零，我知道衛福部花了很多的心力，推出了獎勵機制，鼓勵醫院改善排班，但是一個很核心的問題是，如果今天獎金可以取代入法，當初就不應該講兩年內入法。我知道這一次有363家醫院拿到三班護病比的獎勵金，但這個獎勵金的門檻是有兩班達標就可以領，我知道你們的規定是這樣。"],["邱部長泰源：這是第一階段。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我想瞭解，過去一年裡三班都達標的護病比，等於是完整達標的醫院有幾家？是三班，不是兩班。"],["邱部長泰源：這個要請司長回答一下。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們有三個層級，醫學中心大概可以達到五成以上，區域醫院大概在35%到45%之間，地區醫院的話大概有85%到90%之間可以達到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外有27家沒有領到，我看了一下，其中有5家是部立醫院，這是不是代表你們直接管理的部立醫院都沒有辦法配合？你們有去瞭解這個原因嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有，部立醫院因為比較有特別的任務，包括社區等各方面的人力，所以它的護理人力會比較需要配合社區、整個國家的政策，使得它在達標上會比較辛苦一點，但是這個我們都會給予支持……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我還是要再問一個，這些獎勵發下去之後，我剛剛有聽到，你說要讓各醫院自己去調配、去發放，我更關心的是，護理人員到底有沒有領到這個獎金？他們到底領到了多少？"],["邱部長泰源：現在直接領到的當然就是夜班獎勵金。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你確定他們都有拿到嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個沒有問題，這個如果沒有拿到就……這個絕對沒有問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不要變成口號。"],["邱部長泰源：這個絕對沒有問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個問題其實非常嚴重，我們臺灣現在的醫療狀況真的是非常緊急，隨時都可能爆掉，我們希望護理人員可以好好留下來工作，要給他們更好的待遇，我覺得衛福部要趕快來想辦法。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有12個措施，一直在改善這樣的狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我還是那句話，我希望部長對於剛剛講的，也就是入法，在你的任內、賴總統任內會不會完成？你直接給我答案就好。"],["邱部長泰源：我想應該可以法制化。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以達到法制化。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你能答應嗎？你能保證嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會全力以赴，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後一個，我再問一下，賴清德總統說要打造健康臺灣，結果現在充滿漏洞的實驗地獄卻先蓋好，這個地獄就是你們每一個部會親手施工、集體完成的成果。臺師大女足被強迫抽血做研究，衛福部只說教育部要依法辦理，我覺得很奇怪，人體研究法的機關不是在衛福部嗎？你們林靜儀次長又在臉書撇清衛福部的責任，你們都是醫生，難道看不出這個抽血行為是有問題的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分早上也有跟大家報告過，第一個就是，如果是人體研究法當然是由衛福部主管，至於人體研究的監督、施行或者是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是他這樣子不是就違反你們的規定了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是由研究機構的事業主管機關，所以學校的話……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以學術機關你是不管的嗎？他們要怎麼玩都可以啊！"],["邱部長泰源：對學術機關不是不管，我們是尊重事業主管機關去做調查……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你立這個法是幹什麼呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們就是立這個法然後有相關的規定讓事業主管機關他們去執行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們院長都說衛福部要負該負的責任，那你覺得衛福部接下來要做什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，當然學生人權跟受教權的保護是絕對不容模糊的；第二個，我們當務之急就是趕快看看能不能保護學生的受教權，還有就是看他們的身心狀況，我們也啟動了心理健康方面的系統。"],["邱委員鎮軍：臺灣現在到底還有多少這種人體實驗是沒有在醫療場所進行的？有幾個？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能要去了解一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，這是你的職務，這是你的業務範圍，所以我覺得你應該要全權掌握，因為這樣的實驗會觸犯很多法律，我念給你聽，包含醫師法、護理人員法、人體研究法、感染管制相關法規、傳染病防治法，這些都是衛福部主管的範圍，所以不要把這個事情都推給教育部，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：不會，我們現在是先……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望部裡面更積極一點好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：最重要的是主持人當時有沒有按照倫理委員會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我希望你去嚴格執行，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有牽涉到跟我們相關的法令，我們當然一定嚴格執行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":398,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-21","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","涂權吉","賴惠員","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","陳冠廷","劉建國","黃秀芳","林月琴","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","王正旭","陳瑩","陳永康","楊曜","廖偉翔","盧縣一"],"page_start":325,"meetingDate":["2025-07-17"],"gazette_id":"1146701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，\n醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1146701_00006"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}