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水壓如果不夠都要靠那個抽水摩托所以你停電停水然後我們的電話條款都倒了所以啊 網路訊號 手機訊號 現在都走我們的電話所所以這回倒了這次就是停電停水 又停掉了電信訊號所以造成啊 可能是有史以來最慘重的災情之一啦現在大家都在說 那如何強化"},{"start":46.354,"end":61.648,"text":"我們的電網的韌性 我想這不是供電的問題 是電網的問題如果強化我們電網的韌性 譬如說電纜地下化電纜地下化確實是一個方法 但是我想不是所有的答案"},{"start":63.009,"end":71.311,"text":"這部分我跟董事長討論一下我以前在我選區我們台電也在我的社群就是平安公路台17層這就是台南市的南區 溪丘到返地當中這以前風太大就跳電了因為它的電話條都站在台時機的旁邊颱風一來風很大 電線都要戳斷了電話條沒倒就要戳斷電線"},{"start":92.296,"end":119.53,"text":"所以後來這個地方就跟北澳發就解決這個問題啦那這是2016年我跟我們台電爭取的那時候才六千多萬不過現在恐怕以目前的供料這個會很貴了啦啊這道理在這裡我想董事長跟我們台電的總經理喔你們大概幾乎幾乎都進駐在災區嘛你應該感同身受啦那醫藥要怎麼來強化我們的我們的電網啊我想"},{"start":122.115,"end":130.499,"text":"電纜如果地下化 沿水的地區就不行了是不是這樣 我不定有時間給你答詢 我的意見請你帶回去那邊那個地方 目前可以優先電纜地下化 台北現在有沒有計畫"},{"start":141.075,"end":157.268,"text":"跟委員報告幾個事情第一個事情就是我們主幹線一定要先強化因為大家都用單一的解方就是說認為地下化就可以解決問題但地下化如果我們這些設備被水泡了那個解決問題要更久"},{"start":157.788,"end":178.772,"text":"因為淹水地方 電能地下化更麻煩2018年那個西部海岸淹水那個光是抽水就抽了7、8天那個7、8天以後才來復電那個事情會更麻煩所以我跟委員報告幾個事您剛才講可以地下化的地方可能都是要陸基比較穩定好的道路我們來優先辦理那我們就很確定的來討論我剛剛台10級台19"},{"start":183.513,"end":204.216,"text":"省道啦 省得一波排水 你就做得比較好啦這個保安是不是可以優先來做啦 我覺得台電你應該先規範出可以電腦遞交的地方 你就先做跟委員報告 這一點我們會提啦 因為部長都指示我們要趕快做這件事因為這件事大家都關注 這個需要跨部會一起來處理啦"},{"start":204.756,"end":214.503,"text":"因為交通部也在我其實是因為這個牽涉到省道我們過去有一期的合作經驗我們有沒有辦法怎麼做好這件事因為連電信的我覺得這個是可能可以合作的事"},{"start":219.827,"end":233.436,"text":"不淹水的地方然後又有高壓主線那個主幹管通過的地方要行走啦 要行走地下化啦那這當中當然牽扯到跨部會尤其你省道齁因為你如果對人地下化第一個你要交通維護啦"},{"start":235.497,"end":254.252,"text":"要有交尾的問題嘛對你啊 路面你要再 喔 要再停泊嘛有路權 有施工的問題嘛這些東西你們兩個部位應該要好好的互相協助的啦這樣好不好那另外啦 來 我再請教一下台電啦如果不能地下化的地方啦那應該要強化啦 提高啦 抗風"},{"start":255.453,"end":264.816,"text":"的這個急速啦對謝謝委員啦我覺得這件事情是我們因為地下化要花時間我們在這個因為颱風現在7月就來我們你要先跟委員報告就是說我們現在會再重要的"},{"start":274.68,"end":278.783,"text":"那個主要的那個電感上面因為比方說上面要裝開關就是切換的開關或者是有變壓器的我們會先把它快速的先換成抗風強度比較高的那在一排裡面如果有幾支這種抗風強度更高的鐵塔電感"},{"start":296.317,"end":308.87,"text":"它就可以讓整排導斷的範圍縮小可能一排原來可能20支我們中間如果差了4、5支它就比較不會導斷這麼多這個是我們這幾天跟同仁我們現在緊急在做我們已經準備要緊急採購更強化的電感來做這個"},{"start":316.56,"end":341.156,"text":"類似就是中央隔斷災害擴大的一些工作好 再來喔因為這次的電話條都要2400多元喔那有些倒掉的喔 我也請電電經理去稍早啦你像現在還有一些喔 還沒有移走的喔我知道你現在也缺機具啦 缺人力啦那你要自己去想辦法克服啦要趕快把這個倒下來的電話條趕快去稍早這都看得乾淨啦是 那個"},{"start":341.676,"end":349.124,"text":"大部分都移了 現在在部落裡面還沒移完村落裡面都還沒移你就是先刷大樓啦但是裡面還有很多 我拜託請台電趕快把這些倒塌的電線趕快移走好 謝謝好 謝謝曾董事長另外我來好 部長您先休息我來請農業部陳部長"},{"start":368.3,"end":389.717,"text":"來 董事長這次台南市的風災農業損失是差不多全國最多 差不多全部的四成五百那其中我現在發現 你的農漁業的補助標準沒有一樣你現在一步兩制 你現在農業補你都免限刊 現在也可以開始去公所受理申報 訂訂你現在漁業損失不是這樣 台南也很危險"},{"start":394.864,"end":412.669,"text":"那我現在接到的反應啦 你漁業署免限的條件你覺得沒辦法 怎麼可能呢 幾個人做得到你現在免限的條件 要有水產履歷 產銷履歷還是有天然災害補助金錢救助你今年還沒有啊 有很多人死了對不對 今年有死了也很少啦第三 要有漁業的保險"},{"start":421.933,"end":443.977,"text":"這三個啦 產銷履歷也好啦 漁業保險 不然就是你漁業署要推廣漁業署推廣的績效你自己知道啦 因為很多人有保養很少有 我輸出給你看啦是酒瓣的零啦 是三百餘的蝸 頭髮便宜是五啦吳國瑜的頭髮建築只有一啦我如果請教啦 你在免限竿提這三個條件"},{"start":448.676,"end":466.488,"text":"這可能有一點誤解喔基本上免現幹的時候就是你只要能夠證明你有養殖的事實但是這三個就是說因為這三個在我們的資料庫有很容易就能夠查證啦你所謂的如果這三個條件你達不到"},{"start":470.919,"end":480.524,"text":"沒有 不是因為這三個裡面 我們的資料庫都有所以很容易查到沒有的時候你只要去證明你有財神跟養殖的事實這個你拿 包括你如果有去放羊這個資料拿過來我們會去查證我們先來講一個確定現在有個公所他不受理第一個"},{"start":497.401,"end":498.302,"text":"我也非常同意委員所說的"},{"start":519.881,"end":546.21,"text":"就是說漁業本身我如果是免限刊的話你只要去證明你有養殖的事實那養殖的事實你可以用APP的照相那公所如果願意認定就認定了或者是你剛才拿你因為我剛剛講的那三件我們的資料口都有你只要說你是成交履歷的我馬上調得到資料那你沒有的話你用照片也可以或者是你其他方式證明你有養殖那就可以了那這個部分我想我會再跟公所來溝通"},{"start":548.07,"end":568.98,"text":"好 那就按照部長你所說的另外有一個部分我覺得要留意的就是室內養殖的部分現在你做養殖也有收來的那室內養殖並沒有在我們這次的補償範圍內我是不是請營業署 你看這裡都風災造成的嘛那營業署 你第一邊說的這個部分是不是應該要納進來"},{"start":572.284,"end":589.761,"text":"我覺得這個應該要放進去喔包括一些算是屬於設施啦 養殖的設施那養殖的設施如果農民的話我們一次性的都提高到八成喔這個部分我想我們會來處理好 你應該要把室內養殖也加入好不好是好不要保證喔再給我一分鐘喔那個內政部來董事長"},{"start":596.958,"end":615.774,"text":"委員好市長嘛市長我們現在鄉鎮區就是災後重建喔是我們對民宅啦我們已經開始有你補貼了嘛對今天想說按照你出店補的大小項1萬、5萬、10萬嘛就是6萬到30萬還是30萬以上但是現在災區喔我不知道你有沒有去過現場你有去過現場嗎 災區現場我們署長有去那裡去過現場補貼也去過了"},{"start":627.165,"end":648.762,"text":"我告訴你 你要把這個意見帶回去啦現在民眾非常不滿喔 就是因為在我們在庫每天都要去三合院啦三合院都一個門牌 每天都住幾個月啦 整間一定這樣啦你現在 你所謂破一 依照你生涯的保障 你是都依一個門牌"},{"start":650.185,"end":667.319,"text":"委託委嘛 你要以戶數為單位啦你不能以門牌為單位啦我們會跟移戶...我們是移戶來處理你要以戶數為單位喔?對 我們是移戶來處理你有時候一個...我去縣勘看有一個三合院他住六戶的啦因為有稅電單也能證明嘛有沒有居住四十李幹事或是公訴也都知道嘛這樣有沒有"},{"start":678.708,"end":696.344,"text":"跟委員報告我們基本上就是三合院就是多戶一門牌嘛所以我們是一門牌一戶但是我們還是會以居住適時然後以破損的面積來做計算那做計算的方式我們就是按照破損的面積的狀況六坪到三十坪是五萬標準都一樣啦不然你要以戶數去算啦"},{"start":698.746,"end":707.171,"text":"是,我們會去處理,我們會去處理。你不可以一門白為單位啦,因為他就是一門白的。我們會去處理事實,我們會去處理事實。這部份你要趕快通知,因為現在是公所不受理多戶啦,他還是一門白為單位啦,所以這部份你們中央地方趕快談好。好,我們來了解,我們來了解。今天就叫我們今天這樣收工。"},{"start":719.718,"end":720.359,"text":"現在請郭國文委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（12時2分）感謝主席，本席邀請經濟部郭部長，還有台電曾董事長。"],["主席：郭部長、曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，你也有跑去災區好幾次，我想你應該感受到這次災情那麼慘，其中斷電是一個非常重要的因素，如果停電，這次災區很多地方就會順便停水，因為他們的水壓不夠的話都要靠抽水馬達，所以除了停電、停水，我們的電線桿又都倒了，網路訊號、手機訊號也都走電線杆，所以就一起倒了，這次就是停電、停水又停掉電信訊號，造成可能是有史以來最慘重的災情之一。現在大家都在討論如何強化我們的電網韌性，這次不是供電的問題，是電網的問題，如何強化我們電網的韌性？很多人都提到比如電纜地下化，電纜地下化確實是一個方法，但是我想這不是所有的答案，這部分我是不是跟曾董事長討論一下？還是部長你要……","部長，以前台電曾經在我的選區濱海公路台17線，就是臺南市南區喜樹和灣里當中，這裡以前如果有颱風就會跳電，因為它的電線桿都立在濱海台17的旁邊，颱風一來風很大，電線都會扯斷，電線桿沒倒，電線一樣會扯斷，所以後來這個地方改地下化就解決這個問題，這是2016年我跟台電爭取的，那時候才六千多萬，不過現在以目前的工料來做恐怕會很貴。這次在災區，台電董事長跟總經理大概幾乎都進駐在災區，你應該感同身受，以後要怎麼來強化我們的電網？如果要電纜地下化，淹水的地區就不行，是不是這樣？我不一定有時間給你答詢，但我的意見請你帶回去，第一、不會淹水的地方目前可以優先電纜地下化，台電現在有沒有計畫？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告幾個事情，第一個事情就是我們的主幹線一定要先強護、強化，因為大家都用單一的解方，認為地下化就可以解決問題，但地下化這些設備如果泡水了，解決問題要更久。"],["林委員俊憲：淹水的地方電纜地下化更麻煩。"],["曾董事長文生：2018年西部海岸淹水，光是抽水就抽了7、8天，7、8天以後才來復電，那個事情會更麻煩，所以我跟委員報告幾個事，你剛才講可以地下化的地方可能都是要路基比較穩定、比較好的道路，我們來優先辦理。"],["林委員俊憲：我們就很確定地來討論。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["林委員俊憲：比如台17、台19、省道，省道一般的排水一定做得比較好，這個部分是不是可以優先來做？我覺得台電應該先規範出可以電纜地下化的地方要先做。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這一點我們會提，部長指示我們要趕快做這件事，因為這件事大家都關注，這個需要跨部會一起來處理，今天交通部也在，因為這牽涉到省道，我們過去有一起合作的經驗，有辦法做好這件事，因為連電信的纜線……"],["林委員俊憲：來，交通部來一下……"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得這是可能可以合作的事。"],["林委員俊憲：第一、不淹水的地方、也有高壓主幹管通過的地方要先做地下化，這當中當然牽扯到跨部會，尤其是省道，因為如果電纜地下化，第一個，你要交通維護，有交維的問題；第二、要挖路面，還要重鋪，有路權、有施工的問題，這都是你們兩個部會應該要好好互相協助的，這樣好不好？另外，我再請教一下台電，如果不能地下化的地方，我們應該要強化、提高抗風的級數。"],["曾董事長文生：對，謝謝委員，我覺得這件事情是我們……因為地下化要花時間，颱風7月就來……"],["林委員俊憲：你們可以先做的就是要提升它抗風的級數，要先來提高。"],["曾董事長文生：我先跟委員報告，我們現在會在重要的、主要的電桿上面，比方說上面要裝開關，就是切換的開關或者是有變壓器的，我們會把它快速先換成抗風強度比較高的，在一排裡面如果有幾支這種抗風強度更高的電桿，就可以讓整排倒斷的範圍縮小，一排原來可能20支，我們中間如果插了4、5支，它就比較不會倒斷這麼多，這個是我們這幾天跟同仁……"],["林委員俊憲：這是台電可以自己做，也可以馬上做的，請台電同仁要先來做。"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在積極在做，而且我們現在已經準備要緊急採購更強化的電桿來做這個，類似就是中央隔斷災害擴大的一些工作。"],["林委員俊憲：好，再來，因為這次電線桿倒了差不多兩千四百多支，有些倒掉的，我也請台電趕快移走，現在還有一些沒有移走的，我知道你現在也缺機具、缺人力，但是你要自己去想辦法克服，把倒下來的電線桿趕快移走，倒了好幾千支。"],["曾董事長文生：是，大部分都移了，現在在部落裡面還沒移完的，我們儘快……"],["林委員俊憲：村落裡面都還沒移，你當然先移走大路的，但裡面還有很多，我拜託你請台電把這些倒塌的電線桿趕快移走，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝曾董事長，部長，你們先休息。另外，我來請農業部。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，這次臺南市的風災，農業損失差不多是全國最多，占全部的45%，其中我發現你的農漁業補助標準不一樣，你現在一部兩制，農業的部分現在都免現勘，區公所也可以開始受理申報等等，但漁業署不是這樣，臺南也有很多養魚的，我現在接到反映，漁業署免現勘的條件都亂寫，怎麼可能做？幾個人做得到？現在免現勘的條件要有養殖水產物產銷履歷，還要領有漁業天然災害現金救助，你今年也沒有，有哪幾個人領過？對不對？去年有領過的也很少。第三，要有漁業的保險，這三個不管是產銷履歷、漁業保險，這本來就是你漁業署要推廣，但是漁業署推廣的績效你自己知道，現在多少人有保險？很少人有！我拿數字給你看，養石斑魚的投保件數是0件，養虱目魚的投保件數是5件，養吳郭魚的投保件數只有1件。魚塭有好幾千口，現在免現勘要符合這三個條件，根本就不可能嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告一下，這可能有一點誤解，基本上免現勘只要能夠證明你有養殖和災損的事實，就這三個條件來講，因為這三個在我們的資料庫裡面有，很容易就能夠查證，但是你如果說符合這三個……"],["林委員俊憲：如果這三個條件達不到……"],["陳部長駿季：不是的，因為這三個在我們的資料庫裡面都有，所以很容易查到……"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，但很少！"],["陳部長駿季：如果沒有的話，你只要能夠證明你有災損和養殖的事實，包括你有去放養等等，相關資料拿過來，我們都會去查證，只是會比較慢而已。"],["林委員俊憲：我們現在講一個問題，有的公所不受理，如果沒有達到你剛才說的三個條件，我如果用照片……其實現在去現勘是多餘的，死魚早就都撈完了，因為這個會發臭對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以應該是如果我有拍照存證、我有養殖的事實，你們就要認定了，這樣農業跟漁業才會一致嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我也非常同意委員所說的，就是說漁業本身如果是免現勘的話，你只要證明你有養殖的事實就可以，而養殖的事實你可以用app的照相，公所如果願意認定就認定了，或者是你可以拿……因為我剛才說的三個條件在我們的資料庫裡面都有，你只要說你是產銷履歷的，我馬上調得到資料，如果沒有的話，你用照片也可以，或者是你用其他方式證明你有養殖就可以了。針對這個部分，我會再跟公所溝通。"],["林委員俊憲：好，就按照部長你所說的這樣。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員俊憲：另外，我覺得有一個部分漏掉了，也就是室內養殖的部分，現在魚塭也有室內的，但室內養殖並沒有在這次的補償範圍內，我想請漁業署看一下，這些都是風災造成的嘛！沒關係，雖然漁業署第一次公告時有遺漏，但這個部分是不是應該要納進來？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這個應該要放進去，包括一些養殖的設施，關於養殖設施我們一次性的都提高到八成，這個部分我們會來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：應該要把室內養殖也納入，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員俊憲：接下來我想請教內政部。"],["主席：請董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長，現在行政院的災後重建針對民宅已經開始有補貼了對嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["林委員俊憲：基本上就是按照屋頂破洞的大小分別補助1萬、5萬或10萬。"],["董次長建宏：就是從6坪到30坪或是30坪以上。"],["林委員俊憲：我不知道你有沒有去過災區現場？你有去過災區現場嗎？"],["董次長建宏：沒有，不過，署長有去過好幾次，部長也去過了。"],["林委員俊憲：但是他們今天都沒來，所以我只好跟你說，請你把本席的意見帶回去。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["林委員俊憲：現在民眾非常不滿，因為在災區有很多都是三合院，三合院只有一個門牌，但是裡面都住好幾戶，鄉下一定是這樣！現在你們的損害補償都是以門牌為單位，但本席認為應該要以戶數為單位，而不能以門牌為單位。"],["董次長建宏：我們是以戶來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：都以戶數為單位嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對，我們是以戶為單位。"],["林委員俊憲：我昨天去現勘，有一個三合院裡面住了六戶，首先他們有水電單可以證明，至於有沒有居住事實，里幹事或公所也都知道嘛！"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，三合院基本上是多戶一門牌，所以我們是一門牌一戶，但我們還是會以居住事實以及破損的面積來計算，有關計算的方式，我們就是按照破損面積的狀況，6坪到30坪是補助5萬，30坪以上……"],["林委員俊憲：標準都一樣，但是你要以戶數下去算。"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會處理。"],["林委員俊憲：你不能以門牌為單位。"],["董次長建宏：當然、當然……"],["林委員俊憲：因為他們就是一個門牌會住好幾戶。"],["董次長建宏：好，我們會以居住事實……"],["林委員俊憲：這樣好不好？這個部分你要趕快通知，因為現在公所不受理多戶，他們還是以門牌為單位。針對這個部分，中央和地方要趕快談好。"],["董次長建宏：好，我們來了解。"],["林委員俊憲：就按照我們今天所講的，應該要以戶數為單位。"],["董次長建宏：我們今天下午會開會來決定這些事情。"],["林委員俊憲：今天剛好有中央跟地方的協調會報嘛！"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這個部分請你在會議上面講清楚，這樣好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，下午會確定。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，現在請郭國文委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-21"],"gazette_id":"1146802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及交通部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復\n情形」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146802_00001"}}},{"id":"163224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03307e70a03ca0b950660c26d42c3ae6bc8bc26138795b0e2d4f4f63d7cb167b79d122fef1d5156d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:52:06 - 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Knowledge為什麼A要放前面就attitude做什麼工作 你得做這個國會議員attitude已經重要要尊重質詢的這個官員要尊重主席所以我上台之前一定要跟主席好了敬個禮另外 我要遵守主席設定的時間"},{"start":67.136,"end":73.719,"text":"所以我今天質詢時間就是6加2是不是請經濟部郭部長我不是說我的素養很好那基本上我是按照ASK我素養應該不會差但是我覺得這個本院的委員有一些的素養有待加強"},{"start":91.98,"end":120.363,"text":"第一個問題啊大家都說什麼這個關稅的已經收到美國通知啊這個很多的訊息不時的搖曳就是說我們這個已經說到了就是不公佈 我要等大罷免這是不是假訊息 部長我認為是假訊息我不知道這個訊息從哪裡來的有很多在網路上說已經公佈了這個國安會都知道 總統也都知道就是要等大罷免不公佈然後甚至說直接表明是25%又有媒體人說是32%"},{"start":122.352,"end":143.396,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話為什麼鄧麗君副院長還要今天去美國進行第四輪的談判呢第四輪談判針對起產地的問題跟美國不同的意見你到底要用這個印尼模式還是用越南模式是十九加N還是這個一口價這個之後還要繼續討論如果已經確定收到美國的關稅通知書為什麼鄧麗君副院長還要去美國"},{"start":148.16,"end":168.821,"text":"所以這是謠言不公自破嘛很多人相信這些網路的假訊息有些是刻意的有些是亂編的有些是要破壞政府的威信破壞民眾對政府的觀感政治目的那個部長您的看法呢是 我認同委員的這樣的一個說法"},{"start":172.213,"end":199.053,"text":"對啊 所以你做小訊息 你知道有這些小訊息你就要去做做澄清 去嚴正的做一些更正我們也不知道這些訊息是從哪裡來的這個為什麼他們會有這樣的一個網絡傳的到都是這個這個徵信團體或地區徵信團體都說 啊已經決定了我們收到了 就是為了這個罷免 所以不公布這個一定要嚴正的去駁斥所以這部分再請"},{"start":200.846,"end":224.76,"text":"部長繼續努力啦 我想這個我是樂觀期待好的啊 一定在最後才公佈啦不要你先公佈 你如果好的先公佈在那邊啦大家有樣學一樣 哇 之前那15% 現在我25%所以 喝酒在岸底啦 我覺得我是有期待的"},{"start":226.005,"end":236.005,"text":"另外就是說當然跟台電 今天這部分在主題台電的曾董事長也在就是說這個"},{"start":238.547,"end":260.499,"text":"防災型的電纜滴下滑很重要 不用這次從台灣海峽 沿著台灣海峽上來所以這些過去的台灣路徑是很不尋常的 對不對所以如果我們提早規劃把這個電感能夠及時滴下滑 像我在切定就做了不少所以這次切定沒有太大的風災"},{"start":261.92,"end":268.026,"text":"整個海線 到雲林 甚至到雲林以南這個時候海線的相關省道就應該儘速地籌措相關經費讓這個電纜地下化不然整個都停電了 這很嚴重的問題這要優先處理好嗎"},{"start":281.37,"end":292.984,"text":"報告員謝謝您關心第一個事情我們會優先處理我也向您說明因為您那個選區其實我們有新達電廠猜它是重要的電源線出口所以我們對那個重要電源線出口其實都會強化"},{"start":296.628,"end":318.595,"text":"但是你如果在台南、嘉義甚至雲林這些受風區啊你很難保證說這個台灣路徑怎麼走所以我覺得這些啊容易受到風災影響點溫點溫度整個停電可能不是這兩三天可能這一周以上所以這部分是不是加強熱網耐性把這個列為優先區啊漲化也要列入"},{"start":319.455,"end":344.41,"text":"是沿海的部分我們會一定會特別那個彰化過去發生的是沿海就是有風沒有雨的狀況我們也後來有加強來改善對這不只是只有高雄台南還有這個西部沿海我覺得只有要加強這個電纜電感的這個韌性儘快的速度求說預算讓它這個地下化好謝謝董事長謝謝董事長跟部長我請這個農業部農業部陳部長"},{"start":353.311,"end":373.78,"text":"部長上週我們到永安流浪口管理的問題部裡面也了解相關的管理問題必須要再強化這是要入法的可能性入法的話需要有一些共識需要跟這些相關同事做一些更多的討論跟溝通所以我覺得幾個方向"},{"start":374.58,"end":400.343,"text":"包括加強事主的責任提升收容管理的能力強化動物保護另外賦予動保檢察員寵物業管理然後其他的修法重點這些我們都討論過所以我覺得是不是這些修法方向部裡面都已經了解了是不是針對這些禁止餵養的部分甚至相關的寵物管理這個部分"},{"start":400.843,"end":424.636,"text":"是不是有可能在下一次趕快在下個會期把這個院版的這個動保法修正案能夠送來立法院好我跟委員說明現在動保法現在已經在行政院做一些審議那我們也跟上次跟委員報告大概下個會期會送進來那現在有兩個比較大的比較有爭議的議題就是就是所謂的禁止餵養還有動保警察"},{"start":425.316,"end":454.017,"text":"那禁止餵養當初我們也希望說透過禁止餵養能夠減少就是遊盪犬的聚集但是有不同的團體有不同的立場所以這個部分可能還需溝通那另外動保警察也有他不同的所以我們現在就是比例上呢反對禁止餵養的這個比例高嗎這個就是雙方不同的團體大概差不多啦我覺得這個只要是做高風險就需要樂區的部分啦"},{"start":454.818,"end":481.058,"text":"大家都希望說能夠禁止餵養就像委員說的我會去處理就是高風險的熱區一定要強制禁止餵養特別像永安我覺得讓人民在外出的時候他的居住生活的安全我覺得是最重要的你不能說因為禁止餵養流蕩捲一堆的時候讓我們的民眾外出都要拿個打狗棒我覺得政府該檢討"},{"start":481.938,"end":508.026,"text":"政府要必須保持人民的生活安全散步運動都會受到國的攻擊那個是非常危險所以我現在就是說我們收集全台灣因為被遊蕩犬攻擊而受傷的這些案例那我們希望說透過這個案例再舉辦一些公聽會讓團體把這些共識趕快領取下個會期是不是能夠收起來對 我們朝這個目標來處理下個會期就是希望說今年年底能夠修法通過"},{"start":508.846,"end":528.723,"text":"把禁止餵養能夠入法是然後你說的管理這個動物警察的部分也能夠入法這個比較有問題你們再想辦法好 我們再來協調一定要建立社會的共識是好 謝謝那最後一點時間請那個交內政部董事長董事長"},{"start":535.626,"end":564.847,"text":"委員好市長這個防災室是防災室我們應該經過相關的推動到現在大概有4萬人希望年底要有10萬人那這是一個救災的能量防災的能量我是能夠有效的能夠運用所以我是期待說未來內政部能夠把這些防災室的人力做妥善的規劃有一些相關的工作的明確法源然後演練的機制這部分市長您的看法是"},{"start":565.427,"end":582.528,"text":"好 那跟主席跟各位委員報告謝謝委員的垂詢事實上內政部防災室我們今年的目標是希望能夠達到10萬人有能夠防災室的執照所以我們從去年開始就積極在做訓練那今年也擴大到11個訓練目標那目前已經有5萬多人"},{"start":583.129,"end":611.904,"text":"那我們防災室的訓練最主要就是要強化民眾對於災防的一些知識跟技能那麼也透過這樣的方式讓大家可以自救跟互救是不是可以請市長把詳細的你們規劃的期程跟規劃的工作內容 相關的法律是不是可以提供一些資料給我是 我們會把相關的資料我們就書面提供給委員做參考那我們已經增加了許多的好 因為時間一到好 謝謝我要這個顯示一下這個國務院基本的素養時間到一定要"},{"start":617.326,"end":619.349,"text":"謝謝我們現在請林俊憲委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":873,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時52分）謝謝主席。對主席的尊重是我一向的原則，所以上臺質詢之前，一定要先跟主席敬禮，做任何的工作、做任何職位，素養很重要。素養就是你有沒有適當的能力能夠勝任這個工作，素養由三個部分來構成，即A.S.K.，attitude、skill、knowledge，為什麼A要放前面？就是attitude，不論做什麼工作，當國會議員attitude很重要，要尊重質詢的官員，要尊重主席，所以我上臺之前一定要跟主席好好敬個禮。另外，我要遵守主席設定的時間，所以我今天質詢的時間就是6+2。","請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["邱委員志偉：我不是說我的素養很好，基本上，我是按照A.S.K.，我的素養應該不會差。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：但是我覺得本院有一些委員的素養有待加強。第一個問題，大家都說已經收到美國的關稅通知，很多訊息、不實謠言一直說我們已經收到了，就是不公布，為了要等大罷免。部長，這是不是假訊息？我認為是假訊息。"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道這個訊息從哪裡來的。"],["邱委員志偉：有很多在網路上說已經公布了，國安會都知道了，總統也都知道了，就是要等大罷免不公布，甚至直接表明是25%，又有媒體人說是32%。如果是這樣的話，為什麼鄭麗君副院長今天還要去美國進行第四輪的談判呢？第四輪談判是針對洗產地的問題跟美國有不同的意見，到底要用印尼模式，還是用越南模式？是19加N，還是一口價？這些都還要繼續討論，如果已經確定收到美國的關稅通知書，為什麼鄭麗君副院長還要去美國？所以這個謠言不攻自破，但很多人就相信這些網路的假訊息，有些是刻意的，有些是亂編的，有些是要破壞政府的威信、破壞民眾對政府的觀感，有政治目的。部長，您的看法呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我認同委員這樣的說法。"],["邱委員志偉：對，所以你知道有這些假訊息，就要澄清、嚴正的做一些更正。"],["郭部長智輝：我們也不知道這些訊息是從哪裡來的。"],["邱委員志偉：太多了！你可能要全部去……"],["郭部長智輝：為什麼他們會有這樣的……"],["邱委員志偉：網路上傳的到處都是，政治性團體或地區性團體都說已經決定了、我們收到了，就是為了大罷免，所以不公布。這個一定要嚴正駁斥，所以這部分再請部長繼續努力。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我是樂觀期待，好的一定在最後才公布。如果好的先公布在前面，大家有樣學樣，之前別人15%，現在我卻25%，就會感到不平，所以好酒沉甕底，因此我是有期待。","另外，當然跟台電有關，因為今天的主題是風災，而台電曾董事長也在，防災型的電纜地下化很重要，比方這次颱風沿著臺灣海峽上來，跟過去的颱風路徑相比是很不尋常的，對不對？如果我們提早規劃，能夠把電桿及時地下化，像我在旗津就做了不少，所以這次旗津沒有太大的風災。我覺得整個海線到雲林，甚至到雲林以南，所謂海線的省道應該儘速籌措相關經費，讓電纜地下化。不然電桿一倒，全部都停電，這是很嚴重的問題，要優先處理，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝您關心。第一個事情，我們會優先處理，我也向您說明，因為您的選區當地有興達電廠，而它是重要的電源線出口……"],["邱委員志偉：對，經過我十年的努力，大部分的電纜都地下化了。"],["曾董事長文生：我們對重要電源線出口其實都會強化。"],["邱委員志偉：對，但是在臺南、嘉義，甚至雲林這些受風區，很難保證颱風路徑怎麼走，所以對於這些容易受到風災影響地區，電桿一倒，停電可能不是兩、三天，可能是一週以上。這部分是不是應該加強電網韌性，列為優先區？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["邱委員志偉：彰化也要列入。"],["曾董事長文生：是，沿海的部分，我們一定會特別加強。彰化過去發生的是鹽害，就是有風沒有雨的狀況，我們後來也有加強改善。"],["邱委員志偉：這不是只有高雄、臺南，我覺得整個西部沿海都要加強電纜、電桿的韌性，以儘快的速度籌措預算，讓它地下化。"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝董事長、謝謝總經理跟部長。","請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，上週我們到永安關心流浪狗管理的問題，部裡也了解相關的管理問題必須要再強化，研議是不是要入法的可能性。這要入法的話，需要有一些共識，也需要跟相關團體做更多的討論跟溝通，所以我覺得有幾個方向，包括加強飼主的責任、提升收容管理的能力、強化動物保護，另外，賦權動保檢查員、精進寵物業管理，還有其他的修法重點，這些我們都有討論過。這些修法方向是不是部裡都已經了解？針對這些禁止餵養的部分，甚至相關的寵物管理，是不是有可能趕快在下個會期，能夠把院版的動保法修正案送來立法院？"],["陳部長駿季：動保法現在已經在行政院審議，我們上次也跟委員報告，大概下個會期會送進來。現在有兩個比較有爭議的議題，就是所謂的禁止餵養，還有動保警察。有關禁止餵養，當初我們也希望透過禁止餵養能夠減少就是遊蕩犬聚集，但是不同的團體有不同的立場，所以這個部分可能還需要溝通。另外，對於動保警察也有不同的意見，所以我們現在就是……"],["邱委員志偉：比例上呢？反對禁止餵養的比例高嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：雙方意見不同的團體大概差不多啦！"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得只要是高風險地區、熱區，大家都希望能夠禁止餵養。"],["陳部長駿季：就像委員說的，我會去處理，就是高風險的熱區一定要強制禁止餵養，特別像永安。我覺得讓人民在外出的時候，他的居住、生活安全是最重要的，不能因為餵養而造成遊蕩犬一堆的時候，讓我們的民眾外出都要拿個打狗棒，我覺得政府該檢討，這個部分我們該處理。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！政府必須保護人民的生活安全，散步、運動都會受到狗的攻擊，那是非常危險。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我現在是蒐集全臺灣因為被遊蕩犬攻擊而受傷的這些案例，我們希望透過這個案例再舉辦一些公聽會……"],["邱委員志偉：把這些共識趕快凝聚，下個會期是不是能夠送來立法院？"],["陳部長駿季：我們朝這個目標來處理。"],["邱委員志偉：下個會期，希望今年年底能夠修法通過，把禁止餵養能夠入法。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你說的有關管理動物警察的部分也能夠入法。"],["陳部長駿季：這個比較有問題……"],["邱委員志偉：你們再想辦法。"],["陳部長駿季：我們再來協調。"],["邱委員志偉：一定要建立社會的共識。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。最後一件事情，請內政部董次長。"],["主席：董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：次長，有關防災士，我們應該都經過相關的推動，到現在大概有4萬人，希望年底要有10萬人，這是一個救災、防災的能量，希望能夠有效的運用，所以我期待未來內政部能夠把這些防災士人力做妥善的規劃，有一些相關工作的明確法源，還有演練的機制，這部分次長的看法是？"],["董次長建宏：好，跟主席、各位委員報告，謝謝委員的垂詢，事實上，內政部推動防災士今年的目標是希望能夠達到10萬人有防災士的執照，所以我們從去年開始就積極在做訓練，今年也擴大到11個訓練目標，目前已經有五萬多人，防災士的訓練最主要就是要強化民眾對於災防的一些知識跟技能，我們也透過這樣的方式讓大家可以自救跟互救。"],["邱委員志偉：是不是可以請次長把詳細規劃期程跟規劃的工作內容及相關的法律依據提供一些資料給我？"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會把相關的資料書面提供給委員做參考，我們已經增加了許多的……"],["邱委員志偉：因為時間已到。"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：我要顯示一下國會議員基本的素養，時間到一定要……"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請林俊憲委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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你聽我說啦"},{"start":194.002,"end":204.895,"text":"我不是說我們台電的電一天給你用我是用發電機還是用我的儲能櫃我先送去你那個沒電的地方邊緣的我們那個電是要有主線"},{"start":210.181,"end":233.723,"text":"主線道然後在旁邊有次線道再來有這個到最後的這個一段所以要三段欸我沒有辦法我只有那些人所以我都優先喔那看板高三你現在你這樣在說這是一個方法但是不是啊一個一定很好你把一把機電話聽好把你對保護一個保護商的公司加一把機加一把機整個這個"},{"start":235.945,"end":244.912,"text":"團隊企業會不會欠工藥?不可能,我跟委員講不可能,我們很多增加的電條,是都在產花樓根本就是工程車,要去那裡做很困難所以要救電的時候,那個環境不是讓你一邊就救起來的我們要了解喔,我們不是這個都市或是大條路旁邊,我要調車去"},{"start":265.104,"end":280.421,"text":"整棟會掉下去你說不大條路 瀉條路也有瀉機 其實去研究一下那產花樓你現在說我給你持能貴 我跟你說不一定會成啦因為你還是要送到你們的配電中心裡面將來我們會區域的區域智慧網路"},{"start":285.946,"end":289.57,"text":"區域智慧網路會來處理看你的表現我現在看我現在想到一個問題我們現在兩岸情勢很緊張我看到"},{"start":296.311,"end":316.107,"text":"大陸那邊有一個叫做石墨彈它一發射的話就馬上把你停電了把你電完了你有沒有什麼應變的措施有啊這就是一個台灣啊我就是說你如果說我們比較正確你如果讓我們做光電我光電然後做儲能櫃儲能櫃就可以讓它電可以用啊你說那個整個電廠要用光電來補喔補不夠啦沒有平均啦啦我們"},{"start":329.072,"end":340.063,"text":"報告委員我在這個地方要澄清一件事情我在討論這個光電的事情我希望是可以用科技的用數字的用科學的方法來討論不要說用"},{"start":344.067,"end":367.916,"text":"這個這個這個我跟妳講關電台在講多少妳教學營當然妳考慮對可以補充一部分並不是完全補充我現在就是說讓他們有齁讓他們有照明有照明那可以聰熟反正你們都很行啊剛剛楊成文委員跟妳批評一下妳們不夠努力兩個就吵起來我們要純坤的檢討我們不是我們"},{"start":368.456,"end":390.694,"text":"我沒有跟他吵起來,我只是在說明讓他能夠充分了解只是勾起他的這個...我們現在有一個經濟的大颱風要來了就是那個地方的關稅問題所以我們談的大概是20到25你們怕影響到大包圍案,你們都不講我感覺這有可能"},{"start":393.143,"end":408.178,"text":"大概我們現在談判不是很順利不過以執政黨民進黨個性有稍微進步了已經新聞都打出來功勞很大我不知道這都在你們談判的情形但是我看起來你也沒有笑容我看起來"},{"start":409.099,"end":410.74,"text":"官司的談判大概不怎麼順利"},{"start":439.659,"end":464.111,"text":"我們希望能夠談出一個有競爭力的這樣的一個關稅日本跟韓國的25%也不是最後的一個關稅如果說今天日本跟韓國是25%是最後一個關稅那對我們來講我想我們從32%如果能夠談到這個25%我們也是一個很高興的事情但是我們在講"},{"start":465.571,"end":482.584,"text":"日本跟韓國他們的關稅絕對不是25%我們清楚這個川普的談判的模式模式我知道你現在一定這樣講當然在談判我們台灣到現在還沒有結果我看起來跟台灣跟日本韓國一樣"},{"start":484.085,"end":492.777,"text":"我們都是順超大概是20到25你們不敢講我還要再繼續的努力 繼續的努力請問那個 你是怎麼推論的你也稍微給我們加一下你是怎麼去推論20到25%因為啊"},{"start":500.034,"end":516.065,"text":"日本 韓國 臺灣這都大的一個生操國他們都臺灣了 臺灣還沒有臺灣還是我們有送台積電給他們 他們怕什麼他們沒有嘛我們投資一千六百五十億台幣那裡韓國跟日本都沒有我只有一條你就只是美國 好"},{"start":523.25,"end":543.714,"text":"我就可以很高的保護你現在要把我抬到10到15歲這樣我順便說最後是免關稅啦我比他們更高比日本跟韓國更好的關稅你現在要把我們的談判小組抬到我那裡跟我說我比較有信心希望這就好好的結構出來我可以說是盡量把台灣的經濟繞起來台灣的經濟繞起來就是我經濟保障的機會"},{"start":551.715,"end":573.94,"text":"但是關稅很重要 還有匯率很重要剛剛楊秋風委員講的是實際現在中小企業天天疑心吊膽的剛剛也說明了非常清楚我們對這一次受到關稅可能衝擊的六大產業我們都可以不要折騰 要折騰就好了啦 我就由你來好了啦好 請回座 我再問問農業的陳部長陳部長"},{"start":580.816,"end":592.465,"text":"沒有啊好啊 這樣好了 跟大家介紹重寬 重一步 重試我再講幾件事這次風災的時候我仔細看你們那個溫室 網室那個叫什麼 帳篷那個叫什麼"},{"start":603.607,"end":621.081,"text":"我感覺農業部你們來要有決心彩虹天來的時候每一次一直補償一直補償補償到阿伯想不想教你現在所有要蓋溫室的不管怎麼樣都要那個剛過世的那個那個"},{"start":623.377,"end":638.757,"text":"溫室的那一種去給用起來吧不然這樣賠來賠去每次放台來你也要賠以後的成本會更高要做下定決心我跟委員報告就是溫室有非常多的類型你如果說做業菜類利用剛夠的"},{"start":640.68,"end":656.341,"text":"溫室去種葉菜類那個成本就變得很高啦所以不同的樣他有不同的溫室的模型我要講一下成本會高嘛但是你一次又一次的補償下去阿伯反省成本更高阿伯讓民眾、我們這裡的農民不會擔心我是在研究這個問題"},{"start":657.743,"end":664.848,"text":"風災來天災來 雨再落天的話 誰都沒有辦法影響到你只有溫室熱去改善 風災來就出去不會倒 這是你的責任這叫做任性對 我跟委員報告 就是說這邊的風災因為它是晚上登陸那個風速變大不然如果白天的時候 農民會把那個塑膠布割破"},{"start":682.179,"end":699.018,"text":"那說到這個割破的話,它的那個風場的風力的效應就不會讓整個的溫室倒掉但是因為晚上的風它沒有辦法去鑽好啦,偶爾曉得晚上風啊,人家就在說天有不錯風雨嘛那種最壞的打算,我都沒在,我們來的很好嘛"},{"start":700.94,"end":715.877,"text":"你不能說他晚上突然增加濕度,我把棚子的布去拆掉我覺得要建立不要一直再用補償的方式來寬容互相我絕對同意用這種方式好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":801,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時40分）首先有請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：部長，這次丹娜絲颱風來襲，剛好遇到漢光演習，剛好遇到全臺灣大罷免案如火如荼地進行，但是我這次看到電線桿整排倒下去，聽說有三千多支，我都替台電擔心，但是我發覺到台電曾董事長及總經理全員都一致，我憑良心講，那個效率、那個服務是做得非常好，所以我今天覺得你這個部長官位能保的話，要感謝董事長、總經理、全體台電人員的努力，你承認這一點嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的提示。"],["陳委員超明：提示而已，你沒感謝他們？"],["郭部長智輝：颱風第三天我就去拜會工會了，我拜託工會理事長，也跟他謝謝，每一次颱風來臨的時候，工會的同仁都非常努力，所以我都代表去跟他們致謝，當然曾董事長跟王總經理……"],["陳委員超明：你看他們面黃肌瘦，臉有慘色，都笑不出來。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，我在現場也待了4天，我也有4天在現場，我不是在臺北調度……"],["陳委員超明：好，但是我現在要跟你討論一個問題，一次三千多支倒下，我們一直在說地方國安的韌性，但這樣颱風一來就掃了三千多支，你們沒有想過有什麼新的技術或新的好方法，萬一發生這個情形時要怎麼處理？因為颱風的狀況會跟戰時的狀況一樣，我們要想出一個方法看如何以最快的速度恢復，這是一個考驗，就像你說你們要去檢討以後該如何精進，這點我希望你們能做一個報告來去加強。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們有一個共識，這次結束之後，我們也認為台電一定要對所有的國人說，第二天開始就要有電給你們用。"],["陳委員超明：好，有這個決心很好，但是我看你的報告，你們跟我說要地下化，說到地下化，我的頭就痛，我們想要地下化就要千拜託萬拜託，所以拜託你的報告不要亂寫，你要寫說如果電線桿一次三千支倒掉的話，我不敢講一天啦，三天之內要如何解決？這個方式、技巧最重要啦！你跟我說一天，你有信心嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那有困難，我說一天……"],["陳委員超明：我是跟你討論……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我跟你報告，你聽我說，我不是說台電的電一天就給你用，我是用發電機還是儲能櫃，我先送到沒電的地方、邊緣的，我們的電是有一個主線道，然後在旁邊有次線道，再來是最後的一段，所以要三段，但我沒辦法，我只有那些人而已，所以我都是優先給……"],["陳委員超明：你這樣說是一個方法，但是不一定很好，萬一電線桿倒了，你把它包給一個包商公司，這邊一百支、那邊一百支，整個一起做……怎麼樣？是會缺工嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能，我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：你沒做怎麼知道不可能？"],["郭部長智輝：很多鄉下的電線都設在田埂路，工程車要去那邊施作根本就很困難，所以要救電的時候，那個環境不是一次就救得起來。我們要了解，我們不是在都市或是在大馬路旁邊，幾噸的吊車過去就可以吊起來……"],["陳委員超明：好啦，你說不是大馬路，但小條路也有小條路的技術，你去研究一下啦！"],["郭部長智輝：那些都是田埂路，根本沒辦法啦！"],["陳委員超明：你現在說用儲能櫃，我跟你說不一定會成，因為你還是要送到你們的配電中心裡面，你那個線又沒牽過去……"],["郭部長智輝：將來我們有會區域智慧網路，我們會來處理這個事情。"],["陳委員超明：好、好、好，看你的表現，我現在看。我現在想到一個問題，現在兩岸情勢很緊張，我看大陸那邊有一個叫做石墨彈，它一發射的話，就馬上把你停電了，你有沒有什麼應變的措施？"],["郭部長智輝：有啊！"],["陳委員超明：這次一個颱風……"],["郭部長智輝：如果比較鄉下的地方，你給我們做光電，然後做儲能櫃……"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，我現在在說飛彈，你給我說到光電。"],["郭部長智輝：有儲能櫃就可以讓他有電可以用啊！"],["陳委員超明：對啦！你說整個電停了之後，用光電來補，不夠補啦！唉唷，不要騙小孩啦！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["陳委員超明：我是先提醒你。"],["郭部長智輝：我在這個地方要澄清一件事情，我在討論光電的事情，我希望可以用科技的、用數字的、用科學的方法來討論，不要用……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，光電裡面占多少，你到時候會用……當然你的考慮是對的，可以補充一部分，但並不是完全補充。"],["郭部長智輝：我現在就是讓他們可以有照明……"],["陳委員超明：你光電裡面……"],["郭部長智輝：有照明，讓他們可以充手機，可以洗澡……"],["陳委員超明：反正你們都很行啦，剛剛楊瓊瓔委員批評一下你們不夠努力，兩個就吵起來了，我們要誠懇地檢討。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我沒有跟他吵起來，我只是在說明，讓他能夠充分了解，我只是勾起他的……"],["陳委員超明：好，我們現在有一個經濟的大颱風要來了，就是那時候在問的關稅問題，聽說我們談的大概是20%到25%，但你們怕會影響到大罷免案，所以你們都不講。我覺得這有可能耶！感覺我們談判不是很順利，不然以執政黨民進黨的個性，只要稍有進步，新聞就已經播出來說功勞很大，我不知道到底你們談判的情形如何，但是我看你也沒有笑容，看起來關稅的談判大概不怎麼順利。為什麼我們臺灣很重要？我們對美國的出超好像排在第12名，應該要先講，為什麼一直放到後面都不講？是因為談的大概跟日本一樣是25%，跟韓國一樣是25%，所以你們都不敢出聲，有沒有把這個消息掩蓋起來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們希望能夠談出一個有競爭力的關稅，日本跟韓國的25%也不是最後的一個關稅，如果今天日本跟韓國的25%是最後一個關稅，對我們來講，如果我們能夠從32%談到25%、20%，也是一件很高興的事情。"],["陳委員超明：好，你沒比高反而比低……"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們在講，日本跟韓國的關稅絕對不是25%，我們不清楚川普的談判模式……"],["陳委員超明：模式我知道，你們現在一定會這樣講，當然現在在談判，臺灣到現在還沒有結果，看起來臺灣跟日本、韓國一樣，我們都是順超，大概是20%到25%，你們不敢講：我還要再繼續努力、繼續努力……"],["郭部長智輝：請問委員，你是怎麼推論的，你也稍微教我們一下，你是怎麼去推論20%到25%的？"],["陳委員超明：因為日本、韓國、臺灣都是大的順差國，他們都談完了，臺灣還沒有談完，還是我們有送台積電給他們，他們……"],["郭部長智輝：他們沒有嘛！我們投資了1,650億到那裡，但韓國跟日本都沒有喔！光是這一條，我就可以很高的bargaining power……"],["陳委員超明：你就把美國吃死死的，好！有氣魄。你們如果談到10%到15%，就算你們厲害，最好是免關稅啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我比他們還厲害，如果可以談到比日本跟韓國更好的關稅，委員要幫我們的談判小組鼓掌一下，跟我是沒關係啦！"],["陳委員超明：好、好、好，聽你這樣講，好像很有信心，我希望會有好的結果出來，不然你會漏氣喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我現在就是盡量把臺灣的經濟拉起來，臺灣的經濟拉起來就是我經濟部長的責任。"],["陳委員超明：那是你的責任，但是關稅很重要，還有匯率很重要，剛剛楊瓊瓔委員講的是實際，現在中小企業天天提心吊膽的……"],["郭部長智輝：匯率的辦法，剛剛我也跟楊委員說明得非常清楚了，我們對這一次可能受關稅衝擊的六大產業，我們都給予……"],["陳委員超明：不要賠了夫人又折兵就好，就算你厲害啦！好，請回座。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：我要問農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳委員超明：從寬、從優、從速，我再說幾分鐘，這次風災我仔細看溫室、網室的那個叫帳篷，還是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：塑膠布。"],["陳委員超明：我覺得農業部要有決心，否則每一次颱風來都一直補償，補償了以後成本增加，應該要求現在所有要蓋溫室的，不管怎麼樣，都要蓋強固的鋼構式溫室，不然每次颱風來塑膠布飛來飛去，你們都照樣賠，以後成本會更高，要就下定決心。"],["陳部長駿季：溫室有非常多類型，如果用鋼構的溫室種葉菜類，成本就變得很高，所以不同的樣態有不同的方式跟模型。"],["陳委員超明：我知道成本會提高，但是一次又一次的補償，以後說不定成本更高，要讓這些農民不擔心，我是在研究這個問題，無論颱風、天災來，誰都沒有辦法影響到。只有溫室可以改善……"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["陳委員超明：遇到颱風天颳17級風不會倒，這是你們的責任，這才叫做韌性。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為這次颱風是晚上登陸風速變大，不然白天農民就會先把塑膠布割破，塑膠布割破的話，風力效應就不會讓整個溫室倒掉。因為是晚上的風，所以沒有辦法去處理。"],["陳委員超明：好，我也曉得是晚上的風，人家說天有不測風雲，我們要用最壞的打算，縱使人不在那邊，你們也要盡力。你不能說是晚上突然增加強度，不然就會把棚子的布拆掉。我覺得要建立其他機制，不要一直用補償的方式，看能不能用強固型？"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對同意用這種方式。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？這稍微研究一下，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請邱志偉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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淹水以及停電 連外暴露 電訊中斷等這些事件我認為政府在橫向的聯繫當中並不完美並不完整"},{"start":133.26,"end":137.845,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我還有媒體認為在整個災區的資訊它是混亂的資源欠缺一個統籌所以在地區方面斷電斷訊還拖很久"},{"start":148.516,"end":163.035,"text":"有人甚至爬到屋頂上面要維修屋頂而上命我們真的很難過更有養護中心的長輩一度陷入困境這是大家非常緊張一旦"},{"start":165.157,"end":174.86,"text":"我們碰到國家的重大災難的時候大家不免苛責是應該要團結一致橫向聯繫這是本席從政以來我一再一再的堅持所以我們看到政府告訴我們要加強韌性要人民來配合那但是在這一次的風態當中整個中央政府我認為反應是有遲緩的我們看到總統下鄉去講話"},{"start":194.486,"end":214.575,"text":"但是我沒有看到一個整合救災的功能我認為只要國家在重大災害的時候沒有辦法讓我們的災民安心沒有辦法去保護人民甚至沒有辦法迅速的重建在這樣的情況之下連報導我看到報導台南人都說政府"},{"start":220.138,"end":227.445,"text":"這讓人非常非常的憂心所以我要跟您討論的是我們經濟部我們這個主管是電力在這一次的電力損失光光電線桿倒掉了三千多隻數量之大讓我們就陳如剛才部長所說的從來沒有想到這麼大"},{"start":244.882,"end":248.605,"text":"那麼電線斷掉的也將近要將近7000條這樣重大的一個挑戰我們要怎麼樣去應對受災的災戶有100萬戶以上那在這樣情況之下因為本席來自台中我們當時在20幾年前我們經歷過了921"},{"start":266.762,"end":280.068,"text":"這一些的災難我一看我都要掉淚了我都要掉淚了所以我希望的大家應該團結一致我們來檢討怎麼樣可以讓災民更加的迅速讓災民可以安心這是我們要的這是我們要的所以我在這邊也要特別的強調台電的員工非常非常的辛苦非常的辛苦那麼我們要怎麼樣去協助他們也就是"},{"start":296.215,"end":301.341,"text":"我們針對於在災前的預估能力跟災後的能力配比部長 我們台電員工也有一個人要負責好幾區他怎麼做得來這是政府要協助我們台電的員工"},{"start":314.276,"end":326.582,"text":"甚至外圍的人員都全力出動欸都全力出動但是在整個橫向的一個整理我們究竟要怎麼樣去精進所以本席要請教在這邊應變的能量"},{"start":331.348,"end":355.29,"text":"我們是否足夠我們是不是還有更精進的方案請教部長是 報告委員謝謝你讓我們這個台電的辛苦能夠讓大家都了解大家都很清楚我們都很感恩你要怎麼樣去協助這一次的災難我想你回想過去你的經驗921大地震的時候你知道你的台中有多久才復電嗎"},{"start":356.926,"end":364.731,"text":"市長本席不同意你如此的說法你不是說去做比較你這麼回答是撕裂我們的傷口本席絕對不同意本席是請教我們部件的能力夠不夠我們可以怎麼樣精進但是你剛才在講我這一次陪總統一共跑了12個災區"},{"start":383.072,"end":403.464,"text":"我們都非常的清楚所有的部會統統動起來在做但是你在看媒體的報導非常的偏頗那你要告訴媒體啊你一個政府你要讓身體的情況去顯現啊剛才你是在引述媒體的報導嘛所以我現在在跟你報告那你要給媒體請媒體給你澄清啊我現在報告委員我們現在談本是要跟你討論的我來自"},{"start":411.203,"end":413.385,"text":"經歷過921我很難過我看到這樣重大災情我們應該要團結這是我說的我們必須要怎麼樣可以進去我說台電的人工一個人要副長好幾區你到底你的復健能力夠不夠我們要怎麼樣協助他你怎麼可以來做一個比較什麼什麼時候復健我告訴你"},{"start":433.544,"end":442.151,"text":"我只是告訴你 我們有在努力我們非常的努力才有今天可以在十天內完全復電報告委員我們是非要努力所以本席請教我們理性討論 部長我們理性討論 部長我們如北部誰說你怎麼樣本席請問你的 你有怎樣回答"},{"start":460.485,"end":461.446,"text":"我們要怎麼樣協助台電 你的部件能力夠不夠 我請問夠不夠夠不夠我當然會生氣 你把一個災難跟一個災難去對比"},{"start":477.365,"end":491.177,"text":"不是 我只是引述你剛才所講的話來做對比如果這件事情勾起你這個不好的感覺我可以跟你道歉但是我回答你的問題我們有辦法我們下一次如果再做到一樣的事情我們當然可以把這件事情做得更好"},{"start":504.448,"end":522.424,"text":"我非常禮貌的請問你 我們是不是有精進方案我們當然有精進 我在跟你報告我們有沒有精進的方案 有需不需要精進我們當然有精進的方案 需要不需要精進報告委員 我在第五天就指示所有的經濟部的同仁"},{"start":524.056,"end":552.905,"text":"你應該在災區的人通通可以直接請假去幫助這個復健也就是說光靠原來的這個處理因為台電要復健所以你們這麼回答也就是說我們碰到重大的災難因為台電的復健是不足的我們要精進嘛 對不對所以我們考慮的非常的多我們在不斷地檢討不斷地提出不斷地精進的處理方法等一下就具體建議"},{"start":554.125,"end":568.212,"text":"因為我們不希望碰到重大災難但是我們碰到了碰到了就是陳如你剛才說的是給我們一個新的學習這個新的學習我剛剛坐在那邊聽到你回答的新的學習我對你滿心的信心啊"},{"start":569.164,"end":582.209,"text":"所以我們應該碰到重大的災難我們要怎麼樣讓國人更加的安心在整個流程SOP流程我們要怎麼做民眾碰到的問題我沒有電我去找誰我們的里長我要去找誰我們協助的人員我要在當地有怎麼樣的一個聯繫這些都是環環相扣所以我號稱我也建議政府應該要有一正式的聯繫窗口"},{"start":596.094,"end":608.869,"text":"讓民眾非常的清楚讓他們在困難當中風暴當中不要再害怕這是政府最基本的責任嘛對不對報告委員您剛才所說的我們都在做"},{"start":610.228,"end":639.083,"text":"非常好我們都有相同謝謝你一句非常好針對於中央部會資訊的整合跟這一次的樣態本身認為有津津的空間我具體建議民眾是我們的死命啦百姓是我們的死命啦一個國家沒有人民就沒有了啦所以我非常的希望誠意建議我們應該中央政府要友誼戰士的聯繫窗口各部會橫向的聯繫要好好的聯想"},{"start":640.343,"end":650.152,"text":"這是我衷心非常感同身受的一個說法我希望你們可以接受而且可以去精進那接下來本席要再跟你討論關稅的問題"},{"start":658.675,"end":681.596,"text":"關稅談判未定讓人民也害怕因為我相信你非常的努力我們碰到了國際級剛剛是碰到了這個天災現在我們碰到了國際級的一個關稅議題本席跟你討論過了很多次你來自於產業界應該更加的了解"},{"start":683.178,"end":695.99,"text":"產業界的一個恐慌所以本席要告訴你現在我們全國的產業跟民生他非常非常關心的就是暫緩期這個暫緩期快要到了8月1號以前"},{"start":699.073,"end":715.761,"text":"我們談判小組 談判班都非常努力在做我說了國家有事我們全國應該要全體團結一致這是我一再堅持的也一再的論述所以本席要請教8月1號之前我們會有結果嗎我們現在仍然在談判中"},{"start":721.158,"end":736.443,"text":"所以報告委員我們希望在8月1號以前能夠把這個結果談出來不過美國因為他們是要跟180個國家來談他們有一些這個他們自己也認為"},{"start":738.123,"end":756.048,"text":"這個8月1號如果沒有辦法談完了他會持續再往後移但是我們就在爭取在8月1號之前就可以把一個好的結果談出來所以我們這整個的談判的團隊就像這個委員您所講的我們都"},{"start":757.683,"end":771.031,"text":"給他們高度的祝福他們非常的努力也掌握非常多的情勢我們希望能夠談出一個好的結果但是我如果解讀請部長聽聽看也就是說因為他的暫緩期到7月底那大家產業界會緊張所以照如果剛才的說法就是說8月1號以前我們希望可以有結果但是不一定我可以這麼解讀嗎"},{"start":785.373,"end":812.702,"text":"我們現在這個以目前來講就是說我們就是盡全力在8月1號之前把它談妥希望把它談妥但是還是未定未定是因為是由美國決定的對對對所以我們還是希望加油因為之所以本席一定要請教部長這個議題產業界都很緊張因為產業界也會連貫到我們整個民生所以在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教部長"},{"start":813.402,"end":816.204,"text":"因為相關的關稅風暴對於我們出口導向的我們會帶來很大的重擊我想你也非常的憂心也非常努力但是產業界一邊現在他是先喊停來鼓聲但是他們也希望能夠有一個方向但最重要的我們還有一個匯率問題"},{"start":833.815,"end":837.638,"text":"所以雙會讓我們很緊張很緊張但是政府呢到目前為止我只看到我們提出了930億來協助來補助但到這一段時間我們很久沒有聽到部長您告訴我們產業界到底我們現在的走向是如何"},{"start":851.647,"end":851.987,"text":"所以連產業界預計的暫緩期"},{"start":881.587,"end":899.46,"text":"是謝謝委員的這個垂訊那在這個匯率的部分我們非常清楚所以我們在上個禮拜我們這個經濟部有開一個這個記者會那麼也跟大家說明我們中小企業署"},{"start":900.612,"end":908.378,"text":"我們會幫助這些企業提出因應這個會計的做法因應的方案可以說的讓我們的產業界可以了解因為本席舉例日本的做法他隨時隨時告訴他的產業告訴他的人民我們希望預計可以怎麼做讓人民安心讓產業安心"},{"start":925.512,"end":948.24,"text":"這個怎麼樣子去做這個遠區外匯怎麼樣子做這個選擇權但是因為他們是規模比較小所以他們也不太會去做這個財務所以要政府協助嘛所以報告委員我們現在都跟銀行還在談希望他們能夠提出來一個package就是一個這個怎麼講套餐式的商品然後讓"},{"start":949.9,"end":953.422,"text":"企業他今天可以安心的去報價然後他買到穩定的這個匯率所以我們都在幫助他們讓他們不會有太大的這個不要認為是被突襲有的方向就跟社會大眾說明"},{"start":968.949,"end":973.85,"text":"八大工股 航庫啊都會來協助中小企業來避險好 加油那部長 本席要在這邊請教接下來談判當中您之前告訴我們說會分年兩千億的美金的擴大對美採購是不是也納入這一次我們的談判的內容之一跟另外一個阿拉斯加我們買能源幾乎是佔他們的三成這兩項是不是列入在"},{"start":997.734,"end":1023.948,"text":"我們這一次談判的範圍之內呢我們現在是不是來這個這個遊園因為這個阿拉斯加的這個天然氣是一個非常好的一個產品但是我們也是綜合考量綜合考量那美國他們會根據我們的對美國的投資然後對美國讓美國再度偉大我想他們美國我們在這個"},{"start":1025.249,"end":1048.081,"text":"這一段過程裡面那看美國跟其他的國家談判跟我們的談判美國似乎對如何讓美國再度偉大這個命題呢他們是非常的這個關注然後你美國再度偉大你要投資的很多要投資的很多我們必須要衡量自己的這個有沒有這些有沒有這種投資的必要"},{"start":1048.621,"end":1066.776,"text":"第一個要考慮有沒有必要性嘛第二個我投資這個是不是長遠的這個做法或者是短期的交易這一個部分我相信我們的談判小組都非常的清楚好 所以換句話說這兩項也納入在我們談判小組的考量之因子之一"},{"start":1067.296,"end":1078.982,"text":"是嗎我們有建議啦那是不是他們考量這一碗因為最後本席要告訴您也就是大家務必要團結對外這個談判非常的重要因為我們還有一個貿易擴張法美國透過貿易擴張法的232條其中我們八成"},{"start":1087.486,"end":1099.077,"text":"出口的都會在這裡面他們可以挑特定的產品他們也可以例外的來作為他們的關稅的一個爬線筒所以在這種情況之下 本席要請教IC產品的部分非常的重要請教我們都聽到部長你告訴我們目前的談判是順利的是有建設性的一個進展"},{"start":1110.527,"end":1111.588,"text":"也就是說在232的這個條款裡頭我們是不是也都非常嚴肅的在看待這些項目也就包括了我們的愛奇產品包括了半導體顯示器是不是還是一樣可以達到我們說的關稅豁免權"},{"start":1130.081,"end":1145.276,"text":"請做說明報告委員我們現在因為台灣我們在這個232這個包含了半導體供應鏈這些產品其實對美國來講是非常非常重要那美方也了解大概美方他們統計大概70%他都不支持他們這個他們自己啦這就是對美國來說"},{"start":1152.703,"end":1176.428,"text":"但是還有30%啊 所以我們還是要保護我們自己啊朝這個方向啊要繼續加油啊我們對他們的幫助有多大我們跟美國聯合起來台美合作我相信對我們整個在這個市場上面不管在行銷或者在製造上面都非常具有優勢這一點我們在努力中"},{"start":1177.368,"end":1201.156,"text":"謝謝部長的努力我想最後一個結論也就是我希望大家面臨到這麼重大的國際級我們務必一定要讓我們的產業跟我們的民眾他有準備的機會他能夠了解方向再適度剛剛我說的你們可以說的範圍當然我也了解在談判的過程當中有很多不能說但是如果你們研判可以說因為"},{"start":1202.697,"end":1221.965,"text":"我們的暫緩期要到了讓我們的產業跟民生他們可以適度可以知道了解下一步他到底要怎麼避險下一步他到底要怎麼做才不會讓人民認為他永遠是在被突襲的我想這是我們政府必須要做的事項是謝謝委員知道好謝謝中午不休息那現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時19分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長，郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長嗎？還是陳部長？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。這一次丹娜絲颱風罕見的從西部登陸，造成雲嘉南重創，加上8日又接連有豪雨，部長身為中央部會的首長，你對中央這一次救災的工作會打幾分？"],["郭部長智輝：就我們努力的程度來看就是100分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：努力的程度是100分？"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為我們已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就民眾的感受跟目前復建的情況呢？"],["郭部長智輝：到現在所有的電都已經復電了，第二天所有的水就到了，因為這個災情超過我們的想像及過去的經驗，是120年來第一次這麼大，這個颱風從南到北進到嘉南平原，然後就整個吹過去，17級風造成的災害確實超過我們的想像。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這些原因大家都知道，但我們是結果論，請看民眾大家的心聲。我聽到剛剛蔡易餘委員還在說，對於那些屋頂，政府應該要事權統一，有一站式的聯繫窗口。這個不是只有你經濟部，因為你經濟部所管的是電力的部分，至於其他的部分，政府應該要有橫向的聯繫，因為我們看到，政府就是只有一個，民眾到目前為止的痛苦，相信大家都感同身受。","所以我們繼續討論，我希望大家要看到、聽到人民的心聲，這一次的災損、淹水以及停電，聯外道路、電訊中斷等這些事件，我認為政府在橫向的聯繫當中並不完美、並不完整，所以在這樣的情況之下，還有媒體認為整個災區的資訊是混亂的，資源欠缺一個統籌，所以在地區方面，斷電、斷訊還拖了很久，有人甚至爬到屋頂上面，因維修屋頂而喪命。","我們真的很難過，更有養護中心的長輩一度陷入困境，這是大家非常緊張的。一旦國家碰到重大災難的時候，大家不免苛責，是應該要團結一致，做好橫向聯繫，這是本席從政以來一再、一再的堅持。看到政府告訴我們要加強韌性、要人民來配合，但是在這一次的風災當中，我認為整個中央政府的反應是遲緩的。我們看到總統下鄉去講話，但是我沒有看到一個整合救災的功能。我認為只要國家有重大災害的時候，沒有辦法讓我們的災民安心，沒有辦法去保護人民，甚至沒有辦法迅速重建，在這樣的情況之下，連我看到的報導，臺南人都說政府擺爛，這讓人非常、非常地憂心。","我要跟你討論的是，經濟部所主管的是電力，在這一次的電力損失上，光是電線桿就倒掉了三千多支，數量之大讓我們……就誠如剛剛部長所說的，從來沒想到會這麼大。電線斷掉的也將近要7,000條，面對這樣重大的挑戰，我們要怎樣去應對？受災戶有100萬戶以上，在這樣的情況之下，因為本席來自臺中，在二十幾年前我們經歷過921，我一看到這些災難都要掉淚了，所以我希望大家應該要團結一致地來檢討，怎麼樣可以更加迅速地讓災民安心，這才是我們要的。","我在這邊也要特別強調，台電的員工非常地辛苦，我們要怎麼樣去協助他們？也就是針對災前的預估能力，跟災後人力配比的部分。部長，我們的台電員工一個人要負責好幾區，他怎麼做得來？是政府要協助台電的員工，甚至外圍的人員都要全力出動耶！在整個橫向的整理上，我們究竟要怎麼樣去精進？所以本席請教，有關這方面應變的能量我們是否足夠？我們是不是還有更精進的方案？請教部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，謝謝你讓我們台電的辛苦能夠被大家都了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個大家都很清楚，我們都很感恩，但你要怎麼去協助？"],["郭部長智輝：看到這一次的災難，你回想到過去的經驗，面對921大地震的時候，你知道你們臺中是多久才復電的嗎？我們今天一樣在災難的時候，我們10天就已經完全復電……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，本席不同意你如此的說法，你不是去做比較，你這麼回答是在撕裂我們的傷口。"],["郭部長智輝：不是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席絕對不同意！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是你說的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席是請教，我們布建的能力夠不夠？我們可以怎麼樣精進？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有。但是你剛才在講，我這一次陪總統一共跑了12個災區，我們都非常清楚，所有的部會是通通都動起來在做，但是你再看媒體的報導卻非常地偏頗，這個是不公平的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要告訴媒體，你一個政府就是要讓真實的情況去顯現啊！"],["郭部長智輝：剛才你就是在引述媒體的報導嘛，所以我現在才跟你報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要請媒體幫你澄清啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在談的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要跟你討論的是，我來自經歷過921的臺中，我很難過，我看到這樣重大的災情，我們應該要團結，這是我說的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯，我們就是要團結……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們必須怎麼樣精進？我說台電的員工一個人要負責好幾區，到底你的布建能力夠不夠？我們要怎樣協助他？你怎麼可以去做比較，像是什麼時候復電？我告訴你，現在……"],["郭部長智輝：我只是告訴你，我們有在努力，就是因為我們非常地努力，今天我們才可以在10天內完全復電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這就是你打的100分，我想社會大眾都會看到你打了100分。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們非常努力，但你們都沒有看到我們的努力，就一味地責怪我們，說我們復電太慢、說我們怎麼樣，但我們都非常努力，只是我們不講。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席請教，我們理性討論，部長，誰說你怎麼樣？本席請問你的你有責任回答，我們要怎麼樣協助台電，你的布建能力夠不夠？我請問，夠不夠？"],["郭部長智輝：有關我們的布建能力，經過這個事件以後，我跟委員報告，你也不用生氣啦……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我當然會生氣，你把一個災難跟另一個災難去對比。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我只是引述你剛才所講的話來做對比。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我希望你收回那句話。"],["郭部長智輝：如果這件事情勾起你不好的感覺，我可以跟你道歉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝你。"],["主席：郭部長，楊委員通常不會這樣生氣的。"],["郭部長智輝：但是我要回答你的問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你回答本席的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們有方法，如果下一次再碰到一樣的事情，我們當然可以把這件事做得更好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：看到國家有重大災難，我們的政府給台電的布建夠不夠？我們可以怎麼樣精進？我是非常禮貌地請問你，我們是不是有精進的方案？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有心，我就是在跟你報告，但你又不聽！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們有沒有精進的方案？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：需不需要精進？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有精進的方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：需不需要精進？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我在第五天就指示所有經濟部的同仁，應該要在災區的人通通可以直接請假去幫助復建，也就是說，光靠原來的處理……因為台電要復電是非常、非常專業的事情，並不是有人去做就可以的，其中有非常多的東西……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以您這麼回答，也就是說，我們碰到重大的災難，台電的布建的確是不足的，我們要精進對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們要考慮的有非常多，我們是不斷地在檢討、不斷地提出、不斷地在精進處理的方法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常好，本席就具體建議，因為我們不希望碰到重大災難，但是我們碰到了，就誠如你剛才說的，這是給我們一個新的學習，我剛剛坐在那邊，聽到你回答「新的學習」，我對你滿是信心。當我們碰到重大的災難，我們應該要怎麼樣讓國人更加地安心？面對整個SOP的流程，我們要怎麼做？民眾碰到了問題，我沒有電可以去找誰？我們的里長可以去找誰？而協助的人員在當地要怎麼樣去聯繫？這一些都是環環相扣的，所以我號稱、我也建議，政府應該要有一站式的聯繫窗口，讓民眾非常地清楚，讓他們在困難當中、風暴當中不要再害怕，這是政府最基本的責任，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才所說的，我們都在做。非常好，我們都有相同的共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝你的一句「非常好」，針對中央部會的資訊整合跟這一次的樣態，本席認為有精進的空間，我具體建議，民眾是我們的生命，百姓是我們的生命，一個國家沒有人民就沒有了啦！所以我非常的希望、誠意建議，我們中央政府應該要有一站式的聯繫窗口，各部會橫向的聯繫，要好好的聯繫，這是我衷心、非常感同身受的一個說法，我希望你們可以接受，而且可以去精進。","接下來本席要再跟你討論關稅的問題，關稅談判未定，讓人民也害怕，我相信你非常的努力，剛剛是碰到了天災，現在我們碰到了國際級的關稅議題，本席也跟你討論過很多次，你來自於產業界，應該更加的了解產業界的恐慌，所以本席要告訴你，現在我們全國的產業跟民生非常非常關心的就是暫緩期快要結束了，8月1號以前，我們談判小組、談判班都非常努力在做，我說的，國家有事，我們全國應該要全體團結一致，這是我一再堅持的，也一再的論述，所以本席要請教，8月1號之前，我們會有結果嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在仍然在談判中，報告委員，我們希望在8月1號以前能夠把結果談出來，不過因為美國是要跟180個國家來談，他們自己也認為，8月1號如果沒有辦法談完的，他會持續再往後延，但是我們都在爭取在8月1號之前就可以把一個好的結果談出來，所以我們整個談判的團隊，就像委員您所講的，我們都給他們高度的祝福，他們非常的努力，也掌握非常多的情勢，我們希望能夠談出一個好的結果。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我的解讀請部長聽聽看，也就是說，因為暫緩期到7月底，產業界會緊張，所以如果照剛才的說法，就是8月1號以前我們希望可以有結果，但是不一定，我可以這麼解讀嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：以目前來講，我們就是盡全力在8月1號之前把它談妥。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：希望把它談妥，但是還是未定？"],["郭部長智輝：未定是因為是由美國決定，不是由我們決定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以我們還是希望加油，之所以本席一定要請教部長這個議題是因為產業界都很緊張，因為產業界也會連貫到我們整個民生，所以在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教部長，因為相關的關稅風暴，對於我們出口導向的產業會帶來很大的衝擊，我想你也非常的憂心、也非常努力，產業界現在是先喊停來苦撐，但是他們也希望能夠有一個方向，最重要的我們還有匯率問題，所以兩個問題讓我們很緊張、很緊張。","到目前為止我只看到政府提出了930億來協助、來補助，但在這一段時間，我們很久沒有聽到部長您告訴我們到底產業界現在的走向是如何，而預計的暫緩期7月底要到了，今天已經7月21號，所以產業界他們也很緊張。我在這邊也要具體的建議，不要讓我們的產業界一直認為我們只有被突襲，我也非常的希望在適度的條件之下，可以說的範圍我認為必須適度……郭部長，你的談話一定會讓產業界比較了解方向，我認為有這個必要，請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的垂詢，在匯率的部分我們非常清楚，所以在上個禮拜經濟部有開一個記者會，也跟大家說明我們中小企業署會幫助這些企業，並提出因應匯率的作法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣就對了，因應的方案、可以說的，讓我們的產業界可以了解，本席舉例來說，日本的作法是隨時告訴他的產業、告訴他的人民，他們預計可以怎麼做，讓人民安心、讓產業安心。"],["郭部長智輝：我們告訴他們怎麼樣去做遠期外匯、怎麼樣做選擇權，但是因為他們規模比較小，所以他們也不太會去做這些財務的規劃……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以就要政府協助嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：所以報告委員，我們現在都跟銀行還在談，希望他們能夠提出一個package，就是一個套餐式的商品，讓企業今天可以安心地去報價，讓它買到穩定的匯率……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你這樣說就對了，我們產業界很恐慌……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們都在幫助他們，讓他們不會有太大的匯率波動……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要認為是被突襲，有了方向就請跟社會大眾來說明。"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定是幫助他們，現在八大公股行庫都會協助中小企業來避險。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，加油。部長，本席要在這邊請教，現在在談判當中，您之前告訴我們說會分年有2,000億美金的擴大對美採購，是不是也納入這一次我們談判的內容之一？另外一個，我們跟阿拉斯加買能源，幾乎是占他們的三成，這兩項是不是列入在我們這一次談判的範圍之內呢？"],["郭部長智輝：因為阿拉斯加的天然氣是一個非常好的產品，但是我們也是綜合考量，美國他們會根據我們對美國的投資，讓美國再度偉大，我想我們在這一段過程裡面看美國跟其他的國家談判、跟我們的談判，美國似乎對如何讓美國再度偉大這個命題，他們是非常的關注……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，他們朝著他們的目標在走啊！那我方呢？"],["郭部長智輝：如果要讓美國再度偉大，你就要投資很多，我們必須要衡量自己有沒有這種投資的必要，第一個要考慮有沒有必要性；第二個，我投資這個是不是長遠的作法，或者是短期的交易，這一個部分我相信我們的談判小組都非常的清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以換句話說這兩項也納入在我們談判小組的考量因子之一，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有建議啦！是不是他們考量之一，我不清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後本席要告訴您，大家務必要團結對外，這一個談判非常的重要，因為我們還有一個貿易擴張法，美國透過貿易擴張法第兩百三十二條，我們八成出口的都會在這裡面，他們可以挑特定的產品，他們也可以訂定例外的關稅百分比，所以在這樣情況之下本席要請教，IC產品的部分非常的重要，我們都聽到部長告訴我們，目前的談判是順利的、是有建設性的進展，也就是說，在232條款裡頭，我們是不是也都非常嚴肅的在看待這些項目，也就包括了我們的IC產品、包括了半導體、顯示器，是不是還是一樣可以達到我們說的關稅豁免權？請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在因為臺灣在232條款中包含了半導體供應鏈這些產品，其實對美國來講是非常非常重要，美方也了解，美方他們統計大概百分之七十都不支持……他們自己覺得……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能這樣嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對美國來說也沒有比較好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是還有百分之三十，所以我們還是要保護我們自己，朝這個方向啊！要繼續加油。"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們還是一樣，我們繼續在跟美國那邊說明我們對他們的幫助有多大，我們跟美國聯合起來，臺美合作，我相信對我們在這整個市場上面，不管在行銷或者在製造上面都非常具有優勢，這一點我們在努力中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長的努力，我想最後一個結論，我希望大家面臨到這麼重大的國際級的議題，我們一定要讓我們的產業跟我們的民眾有準備的機會，讓他們能夠了解方向，在剛剛我說的你們可以說的範圍裡，當然我也了解在談判的過程當中有很多不能說，但是如果你們研判可以說，因為暫緩期要到了，希望讓我們的產業跟民生他們可以適度知道、了解，下一步他到底要怎麼避險，下一步他到底要怎麼做，才不會讓人民認為他永遠是在被突襲的，我想這是我們政府必須要做的事項。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝。","中午不休息。","現在請陳超明委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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燈在那裡所以在附電很困難附電的難度太高了昨天我也去新聞的那個我知道"},{"start":311.883,"end":339.603,"text":"那個我一看啦那個場子106個這個足球場那麼大那個你說業者 我去問業者業者說他要清兩個月我說這個兩個月大概太久了所以我們昨天也開會一直討論討論也藝足鄉的鄉長也跳出來跟我們講我們終於有把握應該在月底之前我們就可以努力把它這個處理完"},{"start":341.437,"end":354.029,"text":"這一個是非常難 那個地方主要是沒有車樓我們的舊港府車都大隻的但是那個路線小條 那個吊車外面不知道有車啦不知道有車就無法去處理那些電條的關係所以這邊比較抱歉對港府的"},{"start":366,"end":382.764,"text":"國人啊,我們護電有比較慢,不過這個給我們一個新的核心就是說以後我們可以用這個上電的部分,不一定是台電先去上電我們可以用其他的方法,譬如說用這個儲能櫃或者是我們調這個這個發電機,升來給這個我們的國人啊,他需要,他可以"},{"start":390.8,"end":418.308,"text":"可以有水 有這個通行因為沒電就這些都沒有嘛所以這是我們最大的學習啦好 部長我覺得這個當然是未來我們要怎麼做啦不然我剛才說的就是說這次台電的復電 他們是有功的是 我希望不斷地我們會 一定會以後這個我們也會改善啦但是對這一次他們願因為他也很急啦因為當年超時"},{"start":419.688,"end":445.847,"text":"超時我們也跟他講說這個我們還是要按照這個標準來請他們休息但是他講說 哎呀 嘴部長 他們心裡想要趕快復健所以事實上雖然超時可是你看面對那麼多鄉親大家鄉親看到他們來就大家挖過就大家說我等一下要上來那個是人的心態所以他們主人都會假面很多時間體力的負荷是真的是非常大這個我們這一次也會深刻的檢討當然也謝謝委員"},{"start":448.088,"end":470.928,"text":"我們一定會加狀來對他們給他們一些這個一個比較能夠持平的獎勵啦這個獎勵一定是高貴的好 那先讓我們交通部交通部次長來那我們部長可以經濟部可以先回台電請先回"},{"start":478.406,"end":495.511,"text":"市長這一次的風災還是有看出 事實上交通部包括我覺得你們要跟速發部然後要跟NCC要檢討因為就是這次風災來然後電費條等所以很多人附掛在電感上的那些電信公司的纜線也一併的"},{"start":497.872,"end":516.283,"text":"一併的壞掉,然後很多基地台直接摧毀了,所以信號是不好的那這個大家也都可以理解,所以你們也出動了很多叫做行動基地台,行動基地台基本上就是靠低軌衛星嘛但是低軌衛星卻在前三天發揮不了作用,為什麼?雲層太厚"},{"start":518.188,"end":538.641,"text":"打不上去所以連低軌衛星也派不出用場所以很多作戰指揮中心包括各地的公所包括台電在地方的一些一個修繕點的哇 電費都沒辦法這件事情凸顯的是說我們電信設備的整體的韌性是不足的所以部長這件事是需要檢討的"},{"start":539.522,"end":566.292,"text":"是 我跟委員報告 這個這一部分呢當然現在國家有關通訊的部分是由這個NCC或蘇華部在處理或是剛才講到的這種低軌衛星等等是他們在協調調度啦那這一部分呢 我想我們會來跟他們再來看我覺得你們再檢討一下啦好不好這件事 因為我在前三天的時候我看到很多公所他們儘管已經派了行動基地車在外面"},{"start":566.872,"end":593.286,"text":"他們還是一樣沒有訊號是 我們看怎麼樣來表示說技術上還是有很多遇到天然情況不同的時候遇到瓶頸連行動基地車來了也沒有用基地台的恢復當然更是曠日廢死所以這件事情是需要被檢討的是 我們已經有發現在災害來臨的時候電的恢復跟通訊是一個很重要的這兩件事都很重要好不好所以這個要來 我最後再請農業部長"},{"start":596.192,"end":613.844,"text":"陳部長 市長先回部長 事實上在我這邊的數據在7月18號5點為止 全國的農損台南目前是第一名就45%嘉義縣是第二名 是7億多"},{"start":615.485,"end":640.672,"text":"是第二名 佔了20幾%所以當然剛剛有不同委員去主張台南的狀況但是不要因此說我們嘉義的農損沒有他們嚴重我們也是好嚴重我們嘉義至少是在7月18的時候我們一直都是整體的災損是第二 排名第二目前看起來也還是第二嚴重的啦所以嘉義這一次確實有很大的農損那而且剛剛事實上你在講這個第二預備金的狀況"},{"start":642.412,"end":664.053,"text":"以前第二預備金大概跟行政院報合訂就有了未來可能還要經過立法院同意所以剛才瑪麗說的可能要對因為被砍了這個九千萬未來我們第二預備金的調動會出現障礙的時候我們應該預作準備這件事所以部長我們應該要先這個要先正視一下我想趁這個機會再次跟委員說明其實我們歷次的說明"},{"start":665.234,"end":693.46,"text":"過往我們的委員會包括院會都不會針對我們那個公務撥補基金的這個費用因為公務撥補基金一旦任何的刪減的時候那基金本身的預算就不能動之二倍金那同樣的因為基金我們每一年基金都會超支並決算但是一個非常重要的超支並決算也是要報非常多的程序所以過往有很多二倍金可以第一時間就能夠"},{"start":694.06,"end":711.781,"text":"事實上過往都有動用到二倍金啦所以今年想像上因為今年才到七月會有困擾這個我覺得要預作準備啦好不好那我要跟部長講因為我們這一次不斷的對我們很多農民去跟他說我們這一次的對他們的一個幫忙勒我們會從寬從簡從素"},{"start":715.264,"end":731.231,"text":"有這些都告訴他們但是我也是聽到很多心聲比方比方就是說我們現在有很多那一種畜牧業就是說它企業企業它還是現代化它有建築執照現代化的它當然就可以"},{"start":731.791,"end":746.637,"text":"就可以去申請我們相對應的補助但是有一些畜牧業類他是傳統的家庭所以他們只有過去的叫做續養的一個許可他們並沒有這樣的一個死罩那他們會不會被排除於在這一次他們也是一樣處庭都沒了"},{"start":749.738,"end":772.313,"text":"然後裡面的積液都死掉了那這個有辦法去拿到補助嗎我跟委員說明包括我們的謝昭偉也非常關心畜牧業的部分那畜牧業基本上因為依天然災害救助辦法裡面都必須要合法的所以在現在的規定是沒辦法但是我們用補助的角度去處理所以補助的時候就沒有去區分它"},{"start":773.093,"end":781.502,"text":"他的一個過往是不是有登記或沒登記而且我們把畜牧業的這些將屋頂吹掉的大家重建的時候用五層拉到八層那其實五層拉到八層的時候其實某個角度來看的話部長你的意思是說你用補助的角度來來替代救助替代救助所以他們就有辦法"},{"start":795.237,"end":820.651,"text":"還是有辦法雖然說他們可能是比較老式的這一次對我們也希望說趁這個機會把老式的這些東西能夠更新那更新的部分從原來的五成加變成八成那不夠的部分他還可以用專那個貸款的方式來處理所以這樣的話農民在資金上的需求就不會那麼緊張市長部長這千百行很多行我就說一行像比方說"},{"start":821.992,"end":837.565,"text":"在我們現在針對很多農業的部分都有補助啦但是對農企業這一塊感覺上就會有一些不足那我要舉的例子就是說他還是要做治療創業他一樣喔他的治療創業他一樣 他的治療湯全部都蒸熟了所以他的治療也都不好啊"},{"start":842.69,"end":861.051,"text":"所以基本上也都要移除 所以移除也困難那後續上在申請補助的時候 他們也會說你看那一些稻穀的倉庫 公糧委託倉庫有補助像他們做飼料的卻沒有所以又會有一些落差存在部長這個部分是不是我們可不可以再盤一下"},{"start":862.612,"end":881.824,"text":"對 謝謝委員的關心那農企業是這一次我特別去處理的因為我一直認為農企業特別是跟一級生產有關的農企業他其實是跟農民有高度的這些所謂的關聯或者是他的夥伴關係所以我這一次特別把農企業的"},{"start":883.045,"end":909.46,"text":"過往不補助的變成這次有補助50%那以蘭花來講因為蘭花現在是提出來比較多的蘭花的強固型溫室過往是沒補助的那現在可以得到50%的補助最高是900萬那您所說的這些飼料種或其他的如果他的企業還有很多深度的其他的產品跟農業無關的那很抱歉因為他是多角化經營我沒辦法處理但是我們鎖定在他們農業的這一塊"},{"start":912.041,"end":928.212,"text":"如果是小型因為大型的這些飼料廠他都有他的母公司有沒有還有很多包括他的加工產品啊這個就很難但是如果是小型的這些飼料廠的時候那我們可以來規劃我可以請畜牧師來盤點一下好那這部分我們再盤點再來解答一下原則上就是跟一級生產有關的農企業我們會盡量來協助"},{"start":933.595,"end":950.513,"text":"那因為朝委也在催啦齁我直接講給內政部聽啦剛剛一直在講說這個修屋頂齁事實上你不管國軍或是替代役他們都不會修屋頂啦他們不是修屋頂的專業所以你們應該要去跟勞動部去跟他們檢討啦有沒有辦法讓那一些移工"},{"start":951.494,"end":972.769,"text":"由工程界的移工讓他們可以讓這些移工來協助修屋頂因為現在欠缸所以欠缸的部分你在跟工程界的移工來溝通替代於不會修屋頂你叫他一堆人去那裡大家也是不知道一定都會要求彭博要求彭博沒辦法徹底解決這是第一個第二個欠了"},{"start":973.73,"end":973.83,"text":"我們現在請楊瓊英"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時2分）謝謝主席，請經濟部部長和台電董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長和曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，這一次這個颱風，大概我的選區是最重災區，攔腰斷掉的電線桿超過一千四百根，有一千四百五十幾根，以斷桿數量來說，我們甚至比臺南還多；如果以停電戶數來看，因為台電在嘉義是嘉義區處，這次嘉義單次就有25萬戶停電，嘉義市有10萬戶，加起來有35萬戶停電的量能需要被修復，這對單一區處來說，也是全國居冠。","對於這一次因斷桿造成停電的狀況，我覺得我們應該學到了很多SOP，我記得在第三天的時候，曾董事長打電話跟我反映一件事情，就是台電很多工班在清理斷桿上花了太多時間，所以後來在電話中我就跟董事長達成一個默契，由我這邊來調用民間一些大型機具，包括怪手、鋏仔車，先把斷桿移除，讓台電專業可以復電、可以拉電線桿的人員專心去復電，在這樣的默契之下，事實上整個進度推進很多，但是在處理這些電線桿的時候，我們也遇到很多障礙，遇到什麼障礙？就是我們的人不敢把電線剪斷，不敢嘛！所以後來還是要請台電再派出一組真空油壓剪車，那一組人就跟我們的怪手先把路障排除，事實上，我從這裡學到了一些經驗，當然，後來就加速了整個台電的復電過程，而在這個加速的過程中，我看到台電的員工，包括外包商的員工，每天都嚴重超時工作，以致後來在義竹發生了憾事，這位台電員工可能過於疲勞，然後有一些在復電時應該要注意的狀況，可能他沒有確認好，事實上那個電線是有電的，結果不小心觸摸到高壓電，造成他現在還是昏迷的狀況。對於這件事情我們真的感到很難過，所以我想要跟部長、曾董事長反映，這次這些台電復電人員和協助復電的人這麼辛苦，每天都超時工作，事實上，他們每天付出的都遠超過這段時間可能加班的一些狀況，都遠遠超過了，所以我覺得應該要編列專案獎金，不管是台電正職協助復電的員工，或者是外包實際參與復電的人員，應該要編列一筆專案獎金，感謝他們可以在10天……尤其我昨天又看到一則新聞，嘉義最後一戶民生用電也完成復電了，看到那個新聞我覺得很高興，也很感謝，感謝之餘，我覺得我們應該要有具體作為，讓這一些協助復電的人覺得他們替國家、替南部地區復電，大家對他們是有一定的感謝與表示，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員，這一次也讓委員幫助很多。事實上，在復電的過程中，單靠台電自己專業的人是不夠的，所以在整個救災的過程，我也跟台電同仁一起開會討論，要怎麼樣讓國人可以早一天有電？而台電為什麼一直到最後比較晚復電？如果有到現場看，大概就可以了解，大部分末端的這些支線部分，其實是要經過非常大的、空曠的魚塭，就是這些電桿都是倒在羊腸小徑上，要復電很困難，那個復電的難度太高，昨天我也去新塭的那個……"],["蔡委員易餘：有，我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：我一看，那個場子有106個足球場那麼大，我問業者，業者說要清兩個月，我說兩個月太久了，所以我們昨天也一直開會討論，義竹鄉鄉長也跳出來參與討論，最後我們終於有把握應該在月底前可以努力把它處理完，這是非常難的，那個地方主要是沒有「跤路」，我們的工務車都是大車，但路那麼小條，吊車靠過去也沒辦法立足，這樣就沒辦法處理那些電桿的工作，所以這次比較不好意思，對嘉義的這些國人復電是有比較慢，不過這也給我們一個新的學習，就是以後送電的部分，不一定是台電先送電，我們可以用其他方法，比如用儲能櫃，或者是調發電機，讓有需要的國人先使用，這樣他們就可以有水、有通訊，因為沒有電力，這些也都沒辦法使用，所以這是我們很大的學習。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，當然這個是未來我們要怎麼做的問題，不過就像我剛才說的，這次的復電台電是有功的，我希望部長在這次……"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個以後我們也會改善，但是對這一次他們願意……因為他們也很急，當然就超時工作，我也跟他們講還是要按照標準來休息，但是他們講說……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，他們心裡是想要趕快復電……"],["郭部長智輝：對，對。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上雖然是超時，可是你看，面對那麼多鄉親，大家看到他們來就趕快靠過去跟他說我們的電什麼時候會來。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：那個是人的心態，所以他們自然都會多拚一些時間，體力的負荷真的是非常大。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們這一次也會深刻的檢討，當然也謝謝委員，我們一定會加重給他們一些……一個比較能夠持平的獎勵啦！這個獎勵一定是跟過去……"],["蔡委員易餘：好。那我們換交通部，交通部次長有來。"],["主席：陳次長。"],["蔡委員易餘：經濟部部長跟台電請先回。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，這一次的風災還是，事實上我覺得交通部應該要跟數發部，然後要跟NCC檢討，因為這次颱風來，然後電線桿斷掉，所以很多你們附掛在電桿上的那一些電信公司的纜線也一併壞掉，很多基地台也直接吹壞了，所以訊號是不好的。這個大家也都可以理解，所以你們也出動了很多行動基地台，行動基地台基本上就是靠低軌衛星，但是低軌衛星卻在前三天發揮不了作用，為什麼？雲層太厚，打不上去，所以連低軌衛星也派不出用場，所以很多作戰指揮中心，包括各地的公所，包括台電在地方的一些修繕點，電話都沒辦法通，這件事情凸顯的是我們電信設備的整體韌性是不足的，所以次長，這件事是需要檢討的。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我跟委員報告，現在國家有關通訊的部分，是由NCC或數發部在處理，或是剛才講到的這種低軌衛星等等，是他們在協調調度。那這一部分，我想我們會來跟他們再來看……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得你們再檢討一下啦！好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為我在前三天的時候，我看到很多公所，他們儘管已經派了行動基地車在外面，還是一樣沒有訊號。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們看怎麼樣來……"],["蔡委員易餘：這就表示技術上還是有很多……遇到天然災害情況不同的時候，遇到瓶頸，連行動基地車來了也沒有用，基地台的恢復更是曠日費時，所以這件事情是需要被檢討的，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們已經有發現在災害來臨的時候，電的恢復跟通訊是很重要的。"],["蔡委員易餘：這兩件事都很重要，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這個要檢討。我最後再請農業部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長先回。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，事實上以我這邊的數據，到7月18號5點為止全國的農損，臺南目前是第一名，是45%，嘉義縣是第二名，是七億多，占了二十幾%。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然剛剛有不同委員去主張臺南的狀況，但是不要因此說我們嘉義的農損沒有他們嚴重，我們也是好嚴重。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們嘉義至少在7月18號的時候，我們一直都是……"],["陳部長駿季：整體的災損是第二，排名第二。"],["蔡委員易餘：目前看起來也還是第二嚴重的，所以嘉義這一次確實有很大的農損。而且事實上剛剛你在講第二預備金的狀況，以前第二預備金大概跟行政院報核定就有了，未來可能還要經過立法院同意，所以剛才也有說到可能要對……因為被砍了9,000萬，未來我們第二預備金的調動會出現障礙的時候，我們應該預做準備，所以部長我們應該去正視一下。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我想趁這個機會，也再次跟委員說明，其實我們歷次的說明，過往我們的委員會包括院會，都不會針對我們公務撥補基金的費用，因為公務撥補基金一旦有任何刪減的時候，那基金本身的預算就不能動支二備金。同樣的，因為我們每一年基金都會超支併決算，但是一個非常重要的，超支併決算也是要報非常多的程序，所以過往有很多二備金可以第一時間就能夠……"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上過往都有動用到二備金，所以今年想像上……因為今年才到7月。"],["陳部長駿季：對，會比較困擾。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個部分我覺得要預做準備啦！好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我要跟部長講，因為我們這一次不斷地對我們很多農民說，我們這一次對他們的幫忙會從寬、從簡、從速，這一些都告訴他們了，但是我也聽到很多心聲，比方我們現在有很多畜牧業，就是說他養雞，如果是現代化，有建築執照的，他當然就可以去申請相對應的補助。但是有一些畜牧業是傳統的雞場，所以他們只有過去叫做畜養的許可，他們並沒有這樣的使照，那他們會不會被排除於這一次……他們也是一樣屋頂都沒有了，然後裡面的雞也都死掉了，這個有辦法去拿到補助嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，包括我們的謝召委也非常關心畜牧業的部分，畜牧業基本上因為依天然災害救助辦法裡面都必須是合法的，所以在現在的規定是沒辦法，但是我們用補助的角度去處理，所以補助的時候就沒有去區分它過往是不是有登記或沒登記，而且我們把畜牧業的這些像屋頂被吹掉的，大家重建的時候由五成拉到八成，其實五成拉到八成的時候，某個角度來看的話……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長你的意思是說，你用補助的角度來介入？"],["陳部長駿季：來替代救助。"],["蔡委員易餘：替代救助，所以他們就有辦法……"],["陳部長駿季：還是有辦法可以……"],["蔡委員易餘：雖然他們可能是比較老式的，這一次損壞了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們也希望趁這個機會，把老式的這些東西能夠更新，那更新的部分從原來的五成變成八成，不夠的部分還可以用貸款的方式來處理，所以這樣的話，農民在資金上的需求就不會那麼緊張。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上部長，這有千百樣很多項，我再說一項，像比方說我們現在針對很多農業的部分都有補助，但是對農企業這一塊感覺上就會有一些不足，那我要舉的例子就是說，他如果是做飼料廠的，他的飼料廠也是一樣，那些飼料桶全部都被吹壞了，所以他們那些飼料也都沒用了，也都泡到水了，所以基本上也都要移除，因此移除也困難，後續上在申請補助的時候，他們也會說那一些稻穀的倉庫、公糧委託倉庫有補助，像他們做飼料的卻沒有，所以又會有一些落差存在。部長，這個部分你們可不可以再盤一下？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的關心，農企業是這一次我特別去處理的，因為我一直認為農企業，特別是跟一級生產有關的農企業，它其實是跟農民有高度的關聯或者是夥伴關係，所以我這次特別把過往不補助的農企業，變成這次有補助50%。以蘭花來講，因為蘭花現在是提出來比較多的，蘭花的強固型溫室過往是沒補助的，現在可以得到50%的補助，最高是900萬。那您所說的這些飼料桶或其他的，如果他的企業還有很多其他產品跟農業無關的，很抱歉，因為他是多角化經營，我沒辦法處理，但是……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，我們鎖定在他們農業的這一塊。"],["陳部長駿季：對，如果是小型的，因為大型的這些飼料廠都有其母公司，還有很多包括他的加工產品，這個就很難，但是如果是小型的這些飼料廠的時候，那我們可以來規劃，我可以請畜牧司來盤點一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這部分我們再盤點、再來檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：原則上就是跟一級生產有關的農企業，我們會儘量來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為召委在催，我直接講給內政部聽，剛剛一直在講說修屋頂，事實上不管是國軍或替代役，他們都不會修屋頂，他們不是修屋頂的專業，所以你們應該要去跟勞動部他們檢討有沒有辦法讓那一些移工，由工程界的移工……請他們可以讓這些移工來協助修屋頂，因為現在缺工，所以缺工的部分你們要跟工程界的移工來溝通，替代役不會修屋頂，你叫他們一堆人去那邊，大家也是不知道怎麼做，他們頂多是會拉帆布，但拉帆布沒辦法澈底解決，這是第一個。第二個是缺料，我不知道現在臺灣還有在生產傳統三合院的那種瓦片嗎？不知道，看起來會叫不到料。如果是傳統的鐵皮，那當然是比較單純，但是也都漲價了。缺料、缺工這種事情沒辦法用國軍跟替代役來……他們就是不會，沒有這個專業，誰敢去修啊！好不好？這個要趕快想辦法，好不好？"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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個處理所以是沒有任何現在目前全品項免限刊你再告訴我是沒有任何有數據的依據嗎我跟委員報告全品項跟免限刊是兩件事情我們要先公告公告的時候我們可以用一個品項一個品項公告"},{"start":146.408,"end":159.507,"text":"我當然知道等一下我要問你一個一個品項但是我現在就問你怎麼樣啟動因為過去是有農業損失超過千分之五然後振豐打十級以上的這個條件那"},{"start":162.271,"end":170.637,"text":"雲林縣這一次其實是符合公告損失千分之五的雲林縣農業產值430億千分之五是兩億一千萬目前農損已經超過4.5億遠超標準"},{"start":178.903,"end":202.819,"text":"而且如果假設是氣候參數陣風達10級以上雲林縣20個鄉鎮有17個鄉鎮是達到陣風10級以上甚至沿海的鄉鎮還有超過17級陣風的結果這樣子你告訴我說沒有達標全品項沒有免限刊也沒有到底是為什麼呢你可以告訴我原因嗎我剛才已經跟委員"},{"start":203.78,"end":224.555,"text":"很明確的講就是說千分之五這個標準已經取消了那是三月取消的為什麼原因取消的呢因為用整個產業你用什麼取代這個東西呢還是你現在就打算沒有標準就是你部長一個人說了就算了絕對不是我部長一個人說了就算了"},{"start":224.855,"end":238.387,"text":"專家會議的組成是怎麼組成的專家會議的組成是我們所有的試驗改良場所在第一線勘栽的包括我們的農林漁畜的分屬的部分所以人數是多少然後組成是多少"},{"start":240.219,"end":250.67,"text":"我們人數是依照我們的我們要去檢討的這個品項如果今天是農糧類的就是農糧署還有農糧署的分數所以你覺得專家會議會不會恍不濟急呢會不會說颱風來了你還要把這些人都叫進來然後在那邊開會這是符合我們救災程序的嗎"},{"start":260.641,"end":279.181,"text":"我告訴你我要跟委員報告現在的就在程序就是有地方政府提報以後做四方限刊我知道這些你不用再跟我說我不清楚嗎所以我現在是在問你全體像免限刊到底標準是什麼假設你說三四月已經取消了農業產值的標準那你的心"},{"start":281.563,"end":287.868,"text":"標準是什麼可以告訴我嗎我們針對全品項如果要公告的時候我們的所有的試驗感染場所包括我們分組的同仁會在整個災區去看一遍所以你也不確定專家會議的人數是多少是嗎他會根據你要討論的議題所以你這個是你有一個很明確的規範嗎有嗎有可以提供我們委員會所有的委員參考嗎因為不只是我我相信包括"},{"start":308.525,"end":322.137,"text":"參議委委員 包括陳廷輝委員還有包括謝依鳳主席他們都會需要有一個這樣子的指引讓我們很清楚知道說哪一個項目 哪一個品項是哪一些委員會跟我們做這個專家會議而且專家會議到底要開多久我舉一個例好了 我舉一個例"},{"start":331.245,"end":349.457,"text":"這一次呢其實我真是希望救災是要不分藍綠的面對颱風來襲我們所有的農民他不只是生存受到威脅他的他的這些農產品是已經就是血本無歸了結果讓農民感受到差別待遇這就是二度傷害部長"},{"start":350.538,"end":368.422,"text":"我們雲林縣的農業損失 農作物損失不包括漁業好了 我先把漁業排除是全國第二遠高於嘉義結果在7月7號農業部就公告說嘉義台南全品項補助雲林沒有"},{"start":370.763,"end":398.602,"text":"然後一直到7月18號下午4點為止雲林縣的農業損失已經高達4億3666萬僅次於台南是全國第二到目前為止我們還沒有被公告全品項免限刊到底是什麼樣子的依據你覺得嘉義可以嘉義損失比我們少他可以全品項免限刊我們雲林縣不可以你告訴我原因可以嗎"},{"start":399.363,"end":409.578,"text":"第一個部分颱風從嘉義進來那個時候因為這次颱風最主要是風量的關係所以你的依據是它颱風登陸的位置是嗎"},{"start":410.888,"end":426.297,"text":"我們考量的是一個非常多的一個專業的考量第一個是台風的附近所帶來的風速那那個風速本身在嘉義台南地區它有普遍性的造成你剛剛不是跟我說你不參考這個什麼時級陣風嗎沒有我說時級陣風沒有所謂的時級陣風免限刊這件事情"},{"start":433.096,"end":456.467,"text":"那所以也沒有全品項那你剛才現在又告訴我說這個嘉義因為陣風比較大所以我剛才說的就是我要開全品項的時候我第一個一定考量到整個的颱風的路徑它所帶來的特別是風速那嘉義台南的地區它大概的風速大概是14到17級的風所以你現在告訴我最新的依據是要14到17級的陣風才可以開全品項嗎"},{"start":459.348,"end":463.01,"text":"這個東西沒有說絕對的一個標準所以部長我希望你要訂定一個明確的標準這未來你要做事也很有依據我們現在也訂了非常多的項目當然沒有包括全部的項目它的風速如果達到某個程度的時候"},{"start":475.976,"end":495.792,"text":"所以希望你盡快的把它明確定出來因為這對於你農業部你也好做事然後對於縣市政府他也好做事對於農民他心裡才會有一個依據嘛你為什麼不把它明定出來呢我現在也沒有要檢討你說你是不是大細心你是不是有這個偏頗我現在告訴你說你要趕快定定明確的標準啊"},{"start":504.079,"end":521.374,"text":"你要讓所有人心中覺得說這樣確定我一定有這我再問你 我就問你好了因為沒有全品項的補助我們雖然是農作物損害全國第二高沒有全品項救助在雲林我們已經開了98項的品項了"},{"start":524.841,"end":535.547,"text":"我就是要告訴你是 你要一項一項開從那一天颱風來開始我們在 我們賴總統去勘災的時候那個時候開33項那時候爆出51項 你開33項像擠牙膏一樣 一次擠一點點 一次擠一點點因為沒有全品項的補助因為我們是靠專業的個性"},{"start":548.334,"end":568.58,"text":"我先講 我不曉得你的專業依據是什麼啦反正台南嘉義就是7月7號就公告全品項了我們到目前為止才慢慢一點一點的公告受災的農民非常大的困擾 困擾是什麼我就問你 落花生的公告日期申請區域跟申請期限你知道嗎7月10號是 然後咧 期限到什麼時候"},{"start":572.079,"end":594.203,"text":"所謂期限是什麼意思就是你報的那個期限啊沒有 10天啊然後我們也特別問了雲林縣政府他要不要延長我講給你聽好了申請的區域是全縣然後第四波公告第四波7月10號公告期限到7月29號然後那N3的公告日期申請區域申請期限呢7月9號那他的申請區域呢"},{"start":598.587,"end":617.982,"text":"西螺二輪赤銅是然後呢然後他期限到什麼時候所謂的期限就是公告受理期限是10天嘛他現在受理的期限是到7月23號那我問你啊那是有再延長5天是那我問你啊土庫的芹菜可以申請嗎什麼土庫的芹菜可以申請嗎"},{"start":621.752,"end":625.835,"text":"很抱歉喔 因為所以嘛 我現在就告訴你說這就是農民的現況了就是部長你會錯亂 他們也會錯亂你覺得每一個農民都跟他進幾行嗎他們可能進三行 進四行你每一個申請的時程公告時程都不一樣區域也不一樣"},{"start":641.986,"end":651.238,"text":"你如果是 你是部長而且你還是這一方面的專家你可能頭腦都比他們清楚很多你知道我們現在面臨的可能都是60歲 70歲 80歲的農民他覺得一天他就報不清楚啦你就叫他報兩天報三天每天都不一樣是要怎麼報啦"},{"start":660.549,"end":674.194,"text":"我跟委員報告不要大聲喔因為我這個人的習慣我是不想對你大聲我希望你拿出你的專業我會回應喔我希望拿出你的同理心我告訴你所有的災害不可能在同一天全部公告那你為什麼你現在告訴我說7月7號就公告全品項的嘉義跟台南呢"},{"start":679.016,"end":697.057,"text":"那個是因為當時的風速嘛我拜託你要拿出你就把它訂定一個標準以後我就尊重你的標準你不要現在沒有標準你告訴我說就是颱風的路徑什麼的我跟委員報告齁所有的天然擦害的擦害的樣態有非常多二輪的芹菜可以申請嗎"},{"start":698.783,"end":709.126,"text":"到什麼時候輪背的芹菜可以申請嗎到什麼時候就光你 你就搞不清楚了這麼雜亂分批次公告的訊息請問品項又這麼多各個鄉鎮的我講完就跟你講"},{"start":715.908,"end":719.231,"text":"各個品項這麼多不同的鄉鎮時間都不同你要這些農民怎麼因應品項申請然後擺擺種讓我們的農民無所依據農民他整理田裡面的損失就已經來不及了"},{"start":732.102,"end":735.885,"text":"所以部長我現在我不是要對你大聲我也沒必要對你大聲我是希望你要有同理心現在我們不是在爭對或錯或者是說你有沒有開全品項我現在是在告訴你說我們受損這麼嚴重你剛剛就講了你公告了93項的這個開放品項98項你看都快要破百了"},{"start":759.484,"end":778.1,"text":"都快要破百了 那你為什麼要堅持說沒有辦法全品項呢你的堅持是什麼 你可以告訴本席說你農業部專業的評斷是專業在哪一個部分上說我們雲林縣沒有辦法開全品項好 我可以回答了齁我第一個跟委員報告"},{"start":779.491,"end":801.392,"text":"就是因為有同理心,我才用主動公告的方式來處理,而不是由縣市政府去限幹,這第一點第二點就是說,你一直說那麼多品項我記不起來那麼多品項,我的確是沒辦法每一個縣市哪一個區域開哪一個品項,我的確沒辦法百分之百了解但是我的相關的同仁會了解你沒辦法,他們也沒辦法"},{"start":801.812,"end":815.905,"text":"相對的縣市政府我們透過公告這個天然災害不是今年才第一次發生過去很多發生了而且你也知道天然災害的樣態是不一樣的我不可能在第一時間全部公告所以我才告訴你說你要有一個大範圍的規範就好像你當初你說農業這個產值千分之五"},{"start":824.093,"end":847.589,"text":"那大家都可以算嘛你說十級陣風以上這個就是統一的嘛你可不可以有一個統一的標準你如果有一個統一的標準我想喔大家都心服口服你知道嗎你現在告訴我說這些統一的標準你都取消了你要開始用專家會議取代那你也要告訴我說你專家會議的依據是什麼我現在只是想要為我們雲林縣的農民來請命啦就是說希望未來颱風來襲你有一個"},{"start":854.814,"end":876.131,"text":"統一的標準統一的標準你不要讓人家有欠縫插針的機會說你颱風來了你還分顏色或者是大小吧因為受苦的這些基層最努力的農民他不能夠理解啊那最後我想要講一下就是這個水稻保險其實水稻保險大家都努力了好多年那其實呢"},{"start":876.932,"end":880.576,"text":"很多農民他現在就在講啊雖然這一次這一次我必須要講你們主動啟動災害股的這個收災害股我覺得是值得讚許的包括說青園補助5.5萬等等這些都是積極主動的作為我覺得是正向的正面的但我也必須要講"},{"start":897.455,"end":908.63,"text":"你應該還是要啟動要不你就現金救助要不你就是水稻保險就好像去年花東的二期做應該讓他們能夠有二則一的機會啊"},{"start":910.475,"end":931.684,"text":"我跟委員報告因為在那個當下其實雲林已經收穫了將近90%所以剩下10%所以我沒有辦法同時開放所以我用災害股去處理那後續的保險還是會平割如果說他達到災損的情況之下他還是可以得到理賠的"},{"start":932.964,"end":962.305,"text":"所以現在的意思就是說假設他已經交了災害股假設他已經交了災害股但是他算起來還是損失20%以下他還是可以得到他的保險對 就是跟我們農業保險的部分如果說我們最後的產量區域產量如果低於20%的時候那什麼時候會算出說他的區域產量是少於20%要全部收割完以後的一個月之內我們就會公告那所以假設目前已經全部收割完了"},{"start":962.825,"end":987.875,"text":"現在還有大概7成沒有7%左右沒有收7%左右這其實也快收完了差不多在10天以內應該就收完了吧收完以後我們就會統計我跟委員報告齁災害股是一件事情是我們的救助但是農業保險還是它的本如果農業保險本身如果達到理賠標準我們照樣理賠不會因為你有收穫股就可以所以那這個區域怎麼公告呢什麼時候你說一個月後嗎我剛才說就是"},{"start":990.596,"end":1018.769,"text":"該地區 全部沒有 全部收完以後的一個月之內我們就會公告好 我希望可以競訴應該是要競訴因為過去他們都覺得說好像是要收割二三個月之後才能夠得到理賠好不好一個月競訴的來公告那最後呢我想我也不要站委員會太多時間因為已經超出時間了那最後我還是要講就是有關於第二預備金的事情假設"},{"start":1020.029,"end":1043.063,"text":"部長現在已經覺得未來有可能動用你一定要儘速開始準備因為立法院包括我們經濟委員會絕對會支持也絕對不會擋你使用第二預備金所以呢我希望說為了農民為了災民我們都不要意氣用事然後要趕快解決問題那所以如果你認為可能會不夠你要趕快儘速送來趕快來審議千萬不要影響到未來的救災這樣好不好"},{"start":1048.166,"end":1054.373,"text":"我想所有的天然災害就是我們第一優先的那不管經費怎麼樣我們也會來努力同樣的就是說我是用專業的角度去承受事實你的專業 我跟你說你的專業必須要變成一個標準可以嗎你可以把你全品項免限刊的標準把它訂定出來"},{"start":1067.968,"end":1083.901,"text":"讓大家不要以後在這個台上在爭議這種浪費時間的事情好嗎可以嗎我相信你的專業我相信你的專業好不好你把它來死黑字寫下來未來我們就照著這個標準下去爭取好不好好辛苦了謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時44分）謝謝主席，我想請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長辛苦了！這次丹娜絲颱風，我也看到你南北奔波，全臺勘災，的確是辛苦了！本席來自農業大縣，責無旁貸，一定要為我們的農民發聲。","我想先請教部長，也請部長好好回答這個問題，農業部啟動全品項免現勘的補助標準到底是什麼？除了農業損失超過千分之五和陣風達10級以上，有沒有任何沒有明說的隱形標準呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個，您剛才說的千分之五的規定已經在今年三、四月間修正過了，所以已經沒有這個標準了。"],["張委員嘉郡：那請問標準是什麼？可以告訴我嗎？全品項免現勘的補助標準是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我先回答您剛才講的，千分之五的部分在天然災害救助規則裡面已經修掉了，已經沒有這個依據了。第二個部分是10級陣風就免現勘，也沒有這個規定。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以現在呢？現在的標準是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們分兩個部分，免現勘的部分如果根據我們天然災害的天氣參數裡面，並不是每個品項，因為它必須陸陸續續公告，只要公告……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你先告訴我全品項的標準是什麼！"],["陳部長駿季：全品項的部分是，第一個，我們判斷整個颱風進來的時候，如果那個區域（那個區域可能是一個鄉鎮，也可能是一個縣）有普遍性受災的時候……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你現在是在告訴我，你並沒有任何數據依據來評斷嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是透過專家會議，可以去做這樣的一個處理，這是為了重大災害的時候……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你是在告訴我，目前全品項免現勘是沒有任何數據依據的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，全品項跟免現勘是兩件事情，我們要先公告，公告的時候，我們可以一個品項、一個品項公告，或者是……"],["張委員嘉郡：我當然知道啊！等一下我要問你一個、一個品項，但我現在就問你怎麼樣啟動。因為過去是有農業損失超過千分之五，然後陣風達10級以上的條件，雲林縣這次其實是符合損失千分之五的，雲林縣農業產值430億，千分之五是2億1,000萬，目前農損已經超過4.5億，遠超標準；而且假設是氣候參數，陣風達10級以上，雲林縣20個鄉鎮有17個鄉鎮達到陣風10級以上，甚至沿海鄉鎮還有超過17級陣風的，結果你告訴我這樣沒有達標！全品項沒有！免現勘也沒有！到底是為什麼呢？你可以告訴我原因嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才已經很明確地跟委員講了，就是千分之五這個標準已經取消了，所以沒有……"],["張委員嘉郡：這是3月取消的？"],["陳部長駿季：對，今年大概3月取消的。"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼取消呢？"],["陳部長駿季：因為用整個產業的……"],["張委員嘉郡：你用什麼來取代這個東西呢？還是你現在就打算沒有標準，就是你部長一個人說了就算？"],["陳部長駿季：絕對不是我部長一個人說了算。"],["張委員嘉郡：那你專家會議是怎麼組成的？"],["陳部長駿季：專家會議的組成是我們所有的試驗改良場所在第一線勘災的，包括我們農林漁畜分署的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以人數是多少？組成是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：人數是依照我們要去檢討的品項，如果今天是農糧類的，就是農糧署還有農糧署的分署……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你覺得專家會議會不會緩不濟急？會不會颱風來了，你還要把這些人都叫進來，然後在那邊開會，這是符合救災程序的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，現在的救災程序是由地方政府提報以後，做四方現勘，四方現勘以後……"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，這些你不用再跟我說，我不清楚嗎？我現在是在問你全品項免現勘到底標準是什麼，假設你說三、四月已經取消了農業產值的標準，那麼你的新標準是什麼？可以告訴我們。"],["陳部長駿季：我們針對全品項如果要公告的時候，我們所有的試驗改良場所，包括我們分組的同仁，會在整個災區去看一遍……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你也不確定專家會議的人數是多少是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：它會根據你要討論的議題……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你有一個很明確的規範嗎？有嗎？有可以提供我們委員會所有的委員參考嗎？因為不只是我，我相信包括蔡易餘委員，包括陳亭妃委員，還有包括謝衣鳯主席，他們都會需要有一個這樣子的指引，讓我們很清楚知道哪一個項目、哪一個品項是哪一些委員會跟我們做專家會議，而且專家會議到底要開多久。我舉一個例好了，這一次其實我真是希望救災是要不分藍綠的，面對颱風來襲，我們所有的農民不只是生存受到威脅，他的這些農產品已經是血本無歸了，結果讓農民感受到差別待遇，這就是二度傷害。部長，我們雲林縣的農業損失、農作物損失，不包括漁業好了，我先把漁業排除，農作物損失是全國第二，遠高於嘉義，結果在7月7日農業部公告嘉義、臺南全品項補助，雲林沒有，一直到7月18日下午4點為止，雲林縣的農業損失已經高達4億3,666萬，僅次於臺南，是全國第二，到目前為止，我們還沒有被公告全品項免現勘，到底是什麼樣子的依據，你覺得嘉義可以全品項免現勘？嘉義損失比我們少，它可以全品項免現勘，我們雲林縣不可以，你告訴我原因可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，颱風從嘉義進來，因為這次颱風最主要是風量的關係……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你的依據是颱風登陸的位置是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有非常多專業的考量，第一個部分是……"],["張委員嘉郡：類似什麼？你的專業考量是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：颱風路徑所帶來的風速，風速本身在嘉義、臺南地區有普遍性地造成十四級到十七級……"],["張委員嘉郡：你剛剛不是跟我說你不參考這個什麼十級陣風嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我說十級陣風沒有所謂十級陣風免現勘這件事情。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以也沒有全品項，你現在又告訴我嘉義因為陣風比較大，所以……"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說的就是我要開全品項的時候，我第一個一定考量到整個颱風的路徑所帶來的，特別是風速，嘉義、臺南地區的風速大概是十四到十七級的風……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你現在告訴我最新的依據是要十四到十七級的陣風才可以開全品項嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個東西沒有說絕對的一個標準，除非……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！所以我希望部長要訂定一個明確的標準，這未來你要做事也很有依據。"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在也訂了非常多的項目，當然沒有包括全部的項目，它的風速如果達到某個程度的時候，就可以免現勘或公告……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以希望你儘快地把它明確訂出來。"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經有訂出來。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為這對於農業部，你也好做事；對於縣市政府，也好做事；對於農民，他心裡才會有一個依據嘛！你為什麼不把它明訂出來呢？我現在也沒有要檢討你是不是大小心、你是不是有偏頗，我現在告訴你的是，你要趕快訂定明確的標準，你要讓所有人心中覺得這樣確定他一定有。我再問你，我就問你好了，因為沒有全品項的補助，我們雖然是農作物損害全國第二高，沒有全品項救助……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，在雲林我們已經開了98項的品項了。"],["張委員嘉郡：我就是要告訴你，是！你要一項一項開，從那一天颱風來開始，我們賴總統去勘災的時候，那個時候開33項，那時候爆出51項，你開33項，像擠牙膏一樣，一次擠一點點，因為沒有全品項的補助……"],["陳部長駿季：因為我們是靠專業的……"],["張委員嘉郡：我先慢慢講，我先講。我不曉得你的專業依據是什麼，反正臺南、嘉義就是7月7日就公告全品項了，我們到目前為止才慢慢一點一點地公告，受災的農民有非常大的困擾，困擾是什麼？我就問你，落花生的公告日期、申請區域跟申請期限，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：7月10日。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，然後呢？期限到什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：所謂期限是什麼意思？"],["張委員嘉郡：就是你報的那個期限啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，10天啊！我們也特別問了雲林縣政府要不要延長，它不需要延長。"],["張委員嘉郡：我講給你聽好了，申請的區域是全縣，第四波7月10日公告，期限到7月29日。那麼芫荽的公告日期、申請區域跟申請期限呢？"],["陳部長駿季：7月9日。"],["張委員嘉郡：那它的申請區域呢？"],["陳部長駿季：西螺、二崙、莿桐。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，然後呢？它期限到什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：所謂的期限就是公告受理期限是10天。"],["張委員嘉郡：現在受理的期限是到7月23日，那麼我問你……"],["陳部長駿季：那是有再延長5天。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我問你，土庫的芹菜可以申請嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：很抱歉喔，因為每一個……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以嘛！我現在就告訴你，這就是農民的現況了，就是部長你會錯亂，他們也會錯亂，你覺得每一個農民都只種一樣嗎？他們可能種三樣、種四樣，你每一個申請的時程、公告的時程都不一樣，區域也不一樣，你是部長，而且你還是這方面的專家，你可能頭腦都比他們清楚很多，你知道我們現在面臨的可能都是60歲、70歲、80歲的農民，只有一樣他就報不清楚了，你要叫他報兩樣、報三樣，每樣都不一樣，是要怎麼報啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，不要大聲，因為我這個人的習慣……"],["張委員嘉郡：我是不想對你大聲，我希望你拿出你的專業。"],["陳部長駿季：因為我會回應，我希望用專業的方式……"],["張委員嘉郡：我希望拿出你的同理心。"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，所有的災害不可能在同一天全部公告，從專業的角度是不可能……"],["張委員嘉郡：好，你現在告訴我7月7日就公告全品項的嘉義跟臺南呢？"],["陳部長駿季：那個是因為當時的風速嘛！"],["張委員嘉郡：我拜託你，你就把它訂定一個標準，以後我就尊重你的標準，你不要現在沒有標準，你告訴我就是颱風的路徑什麼的……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，所有天然災害的樣態還有非常多……"],["張委員嘉郡：我再講，二崙的芹菜可以申請嗎？到什麼時候？崙背的芹菜可以申請嗎？到什麼時候？就光是你，你就搞不清楚了，這麼雜亂分批次公告的訊息，請問品項又這麼多，各個鄉鎮的……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，你可不可以讓我講完？10秒鐘就好。"],["張委員嘉郡：我講完就給你講。各個品項這麼多，不同的鄉鎮時間都不同，你要這些農民怎麼因應？品項申請百百種，讓我們的農民無所依據，農民整理田裡面的損失就已經來不及了，所以部長，我不是要對你大聲，我也沒必要對你大聲，我是希望你要有同理心，現在我們不是在爭對或錯，或者是你有沒有開全品項，我現在是在告訴你，我們受損這麼嚴重，你剛剛就講了，你公告了93項的開放品項……"],["陳部長駿季：98項。"],["張委員嘉郡：九十幾項？"],["陳部長駿季：98項。"],["張委員嘉郡：98項，你看都快要破百了，那你為什麼要堅持沒有辦法全品項呢？你的堅持是什麼？你可以告訴本席你農業部專業的評斷是專業在哪一個部分上，而評斷我們雲林縣沒有辦法開全品項？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我可以回答了？"],["張委員嘉郡：可以，請回答。"],["陳部長駿季：我第一個跟委員報告，就是因為有同理心，我才用主動公告的方式來處理，而不是由縣市政府去現勘，這第一點。第二點，你一直說那麼多品項，我記不起來，那麼多品項，我的確是沒辦法，每一個縣市哪一個區域開哪一個品項，我的確沒辦法百分之百了解，但是我相關的同仁會了解……"],["張委員嘉郡：你沒辦法，他們也沒辦法。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。相對的縣市政府，我們透過公告，因為天然災害不是今天才第一次發生，過去很多都發生了，而且你也知道天然災害的樣態是不一樣的，我不可能在第一時間全部公告。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，所以我才告訴你，你要有一個大範圍的規範，就好像當初你說農業產值千分之五，那大家都可以算嘛；你說十級陣風以上，這個就是統一的嘛！你可不可以有一個統一的標準，你如果有一個統一的標準，我想大家都心服口服，你知道嗎？你現在告訴我，這些統一的標準你都取消了，你要開始用專家會議取代，那你也要告訴我，你專家會議的依據是什麼，我現在只是想要為我們雲林縣的農民來請命啦！希望未來颱風來襲，你有一個統一的標準，你不要讓人家有見縫插針的機會，說你颱風來了，你還分顏色或者是大小眼，因為受苦的這些基層最努力的農民不能夠理解啊！","最後我想要講一下水稻保險，其實水稻保險大家都努力了好多年，很多農民現在就在講，這一次你們主動啟動收災害穀，我覺得是值得讚許的，包括清園補助5.5萬等等這些都是積極主動的作為，我覺得是正向的、正面的，但我也必須要講，你應該還是要啟動現金救助或者是水稻保險，就像是去年花東的二期作，應該讓他們能夠有二擇一的機會啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為在那個當下其實雲林已經收穫了將近90%……"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道……"],["陳部長駿季：剩下10%，我沒有辦法同時開放……"],["張委員嘉郡：那10%也是我們的農民啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我用災害穀去處理，後續的保險還是會坪割，如果有達到災損的情形，還是可以得到理賠。"],["張委員嘉郡：喔！是嗎？所以現在的意思是說，假設他已經交了災害穀……"],["陳部長駿季：是這樣子啊！天然災害保險……"],["張委員嘉郡：假設他已經交了災害穀，但算起來還是損失在20%以上……"],["陳部長駿季：對，還是可以……"],["張委員嘉郡：他還是可以得到他的保險？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是農業保險的部分，如果最後的區域產量低於20%，照樣可以比照……"],["張委員嘉郡：那什麼時候會算出他的區域產量少於20%？"],["陳部長駿季：全部收割完以後的一個月之內，我們就會公告。"],["張委員嘉郡：假設目前已經全部收割完了……"],["陳部長駿季：現在大概還有7%左右沒有收完。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，7%左右，這其實也快收完了，差不多10天以內應該就收完了吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，收完以後，我們就會統計。我跟委員報告，災害穀是一件事情，這是我們的救助，但是農業保險還是他的本，如果農業保險本身達到理賠標準，我們照樣理賠，不會因為你有收穫……"],["張委員嘉郡：好，那這個區域怎麼公告呢？什麼時候？你說一個月後嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說就是該地區……"],["張委員嘉郡：坪割之後？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，全部收完以後的一個月之內，我們就會公告。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，我希望可以儘速，因為過去他們都覺得好像要收割完二、三個月之後，才能夠得到理賠，應該要儘速，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，我們規定一個月就出來了。"],["張委員嘉郡：一個月儘速公告。我想我也不要占委員會太多時間，因為已經超出時間了，但最後我還是要講有關於第二預備金的事情，假設部長現在已經覺得未來有可能動用第二預備金，請你一定要儘速開始準備，立法院，包括我們經濟委員會絕對會支持，絕對不會擋你使用第二預備金，為了農民、為了災民，我們都不要意氣用事，要趕快解決問題，所以如果你認為可能會不夠，你要儘速送來本院審議，千萬不要影響到未來的救災，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我想所有的天然災害救助是我們的第一優先。"],["張委員嘉郡：加油，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：不管經費怎麼樣，我們都會來努力，同樣的，我是用專業的角度去陳述事實……"],["張委員嘉郡：我跟你說，你的專業必須要變成一個標準，可以嗎？你可以把你們全品項免現勘的標準訂定出來，讓大家以後不必在這個臺上再爭議這種浪費時間的事情，好嗎？可以嗎？我相信你的專業，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對可以做，我們現在已經在處理這個……"],["張委員嘉郡：你把它白紙黑字寫下來，未來我們就照著這個標準下去爭取，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也希望這樣子。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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特別是加一根台南房屋損害的 被颱風整個屋頂掀開了牆壁都破掉了門窗都被吹破了一萬八千戶一萬八千個家庭到現在很多都還沒修好有些只能蓋著帆布現在南部又開始下雨了停電超過一百萬戶結果國金竟然可以不進去幫忙"},{"start":110.661,"end":134.171,"text":"我們的農業魚業 矽木業 農企業像現在跟台南很多蘭花都種創了政府有深有同感 急著去幫他們嗎我先問你一個今天你報告裡面最讓我生氣的你是負責救災的你現在報告裡面說這次丹納斯死亡人數兩人"},{"start":137.759,"end":139.702,"text":"災情通報10459件受傷人是708只有兩位嗎"},{"start":145.466,"end":158.47,"text":"對 只有兩位嗎對 我們目前收到的那個所有相關的通報是如此那也跟各位委員報告我們截至7月18日的17時多累計通報10459件兩人死亡 708人受傷那我們整個災害應變中心在運作的時間裡面我們共同疏離了4253人那其中也因好與疏散了3096人"},{"start":172.034,"end":189.403,"text":"11個縣市開設67處的收容所收容了876人市長我先跟你討論兩條市長市長你這個報告我跟你講了重點就是剛剛講的你說死亡人數是兩位我跟你講兩條非常寶貴的生命你們沒有寫進去戴慶德總統是在7月11號到台南去勘災你知道嗎在他勘災前已經有一位嘉義我的嘉義鄉親勒卡愛鄉親"},{"start":199.974,"end":226.665,"text":"他爬到樓上也是為了屋頂被風吹走了心臟病病吧一條人命為了要修他的屋頂那裡總統在7月11號到了台南的時候張一鳴很無助地跟他講趕快派國軍來幫忙他講我的屋頂被掀開了請總統派人來幫忙我爬不上去總統冷冷地回了一句"},{"start":229.141,"end":257.539,"text":"我們要自己背啦有人真的聽了總統的話爬上去了7月16號台南家裡去了一位60歲的民眾他媽媽已經98歲了這民眾還是家裡的獨子 獨家他為了修家裡的房子 爬上去一家人命就沒有了"},{"start":258.157,"end":284.939,"text":"如果在7月11號當蔡英明已經跟總統陳情了那時候國軍去幫忙或者是內政部你們都派一些人力這法規人命不用喪屍了耶我們內政部的確有派相當的人力我們把我們的替代役我們的警大警專的替代役1350人都已經派過去了主席你的替代役人是去你的替代役什麼時候要去了"},{"start":285.97,"end":290.016,"text":"我們在7月15號就已經7月初就已經派出7月14號我們就派過去了"},{"start":294.775,"end":320.974,"text":"委員 相關的人力的派遣我們必須要受到那個中央的指示指揮我們才能夠派遣那麼我們的人力的派遣也非常的迅速我們就需要所有的人力的所有的人力的損失都是一個遺憾我們都非常努力在協助我們會努力的去照顧所有的人每一個人命的損失都是我們國人的損失我們都非常的遺憾我們也都努力的去協助照顧所有的人"},{"start":322.588,"end":350.723,"text":"就紅太子7月6號的深淚就已經登陸了120年來第一個從嘉義登陸的颱風最大的風速是七級風損害那麼嚴重國軍只去了第一天就被調走了當然要漢光遠襲可是是不是因為就在如同作戰嘛那你剛講你們的替代役竟然到十幾號才去一個禮拜多你們怎麼堆起災民啊"},{"start":352.455,"end":381.75,"text":"我們都每天都有很多190的參觀的替代役服務役人員在現場服務協助我們不是只有 我們是真派替代役的人員我們不是說沒有替代役的人員在現場在國軍有史以來第一次沒有去救災的同時你們人力派遣這麼慢的同時至少剛剛講 發生了兩起很大的悲劇我覺得你死亡人數還要再加上去該去撫恥了 該去慰問了 趕快去第二個是讓人家生氣了"},{"start":384.563,"end":410.494,"text":"災情那麼嚴重民眾都已經跟你們講了當著總統的面拜託要求了國軍不去市長你們負責救災利益連累乃至國軍沒有去依照災防救法地方縣市政府要求國軍要去對不對如果受災非常嚴重國軍要主動去"},{"start":412.543,"end":438.752,"text":"那是反令嗎?有提醒總統嗎?國安部也出動了4000多人次前去救災救援我們在整個災情中央應變中心的過程裡面從7月8號開始7月5號開始設置之來我們就不斷的派遣相關的軍力還有人力、民力、好,替代役都有到現場去協助、去幫忙那麼相關的人力的不足或是我們都後續都有在補充、在補足那麼"},{"start":441.164,"end":467.198,"text":"雖然他救災還是根本謊言被拆穿我剛剛講的那個場景那麼清清楚楚在災後的已經到了第五天那時候台灣民眾黨已經提了正式的案子要求要重訴因為災情一件一件又爆回來沒有人去幫人 人力不夠嘛所以才有那個賴清德11號到了台南那個場景嘛結果民眾是怎麼跟他講的我們需要國軍"},{"start":469.639,"end":496.52,"text":"國際經濟法令本來就該去第二個你們內政部為什麼沒有積極去爭取對不對那第三個我剛剛現在就接著跟你講相關的民力、人力、物力包括國軍我們其實都有派遣也都有出許相關的紀錄都有我們都可以調給委員看那你剛剛講十幾號你們還派替代役替代役是增加的我們是真派替代役本來現場就有替代役我們在場就有替代役"},{"start":498.208,"end":527.091,"text":"人力本來就有你來看結果好台南跟嘉義超過一萬八千個家庭房子的屋頂被掀走了進戶設什麼事情第一個 到今天還有多少戶還沒有修建完成三四千戶嘛 像台南可能要兩三千戶嘉義可能也要幾百戶啊外國用董車就要有百多戶 還沒用完啊宜甸比較多 又補就比較少"},{"start":528.834,"end":532.586,"text":"要更嚴重了 處長你們做什麼幫忙你們發反部"},{"start":534.858,"end":561.926,"text":"八環部我們不是只有八環部我們協助了很多地方的民眾我們請地方的工班也都過去幫忙我們也協調了慈濟也協調了那個台積電都進相當的工班都進去協助幫忙那麼地方政府也積極跟我們合作配合所以許多地方政府其實也派遣了許多的人力物力都在地方上面進行協助我們的替代役我們的那個警消的替代役也都進去協助了"},{"start":562.606,"end":591.672,"text":"事實上許多的人都在這邊現場做很多的志工跟服務那個市長我希望你今天巡打的時候要注意兩個很重要的事情第一個台南跟嘉義到現在很多人的家裡還是殘破不堪的滿目倉儀的第二個今天還來得及我覺得今天該派下去的人力該有的物資要趕快趕快去賴清德總統去的第五天蔡平是埋怨說"},{"start":593.666,"end":620.734,"text":"除了里長之外市政府人中央的觀點都沒有到啊所以我現在更進一步跟你講光是我我送環部光是一個役主我就送了三批耶民眾一些山津人士知道這個災情到了第五天看到賴總統去的時候民眾說要需要環部家裡是殘破不堪的已經第五天要多淒慘啊你想像你家裡面五天停電房子是殘破不堪的你怎麼住"},{"start":622.79,"end":634.315,"text":"沒水又沒電 就是陳庭威今天講的 連通信有些都沒有欸像個孤島 那時候政府在哪裡包括一些媒體朋友 拜託你們一下 多報導好不好我送了三部環部過去他們帶已經第五天了"},{"start":655.782,"end":669.487,"text":"民眾帶我去看他們家園殘破不堪那個路上電線可能不是吹倒耶是整個斷掉耶有一條路短短的我走不到30公尺大家看一下這個畫面"},{"start":683.77,"end":711.181,"text":"這個不是吹不是吹倒是整個那個電線桿兩個電線桿這樣子整個被封整個吹倒一條路上十幾根電線桿旁邊就是雲溫一族是全台灣如雨最多的好多魚都死掉了你看那個黑暗的地方你看那個魚肉已經都浮上來了"},{"start":714.042,"end":733.34,"text":"結果到今天今天他發現災情這麼嚴重的時候現在那個最後要擔心是什麼你家裡面如果現在屋頂是用環布蓋住市長現在如果又下大雨怎麼辦"},{"start":734.929,"end":757.879,"text":"我們已經在之前就已經跟地方縣政府都已經通報過遇到相關的災害我們其實都已經有後備的那個收容中心都已經準備好事實上在那個週末的時候因為颱風的關係事實上已經請嘉義縣政府跟台南市政府準備好收容中心而且許多相關的那個受災戶也已經都到收容中心去了"},{"start":758.459,"end":787.868,"text":"所以這些相關的準備其實我們都有準備好那我們也積極的去照顧所有的災民那政府也在7月18號我們就已經將相關的補助措施我們都已經通過也積極在跟地方政府合作那把發放慰問金跟整個後續的災害的準備跟修復包括我們剛才講的我們透過慈濟透過台積電還有許多的工班的協助我們不是只有蓋防布盤我們包括整個的災後的房屋的整個修繕"},{"start":788.508,"end":813.47,"text":"作業我們整體都在進行當中就到目前為止還有好幾千戶家裡面都只是用帆布有些甚至到現在連帆布都沒有這多悲慘的一個狀況所以我今天我嚴正的要求趕快再增派人力去好不好物資趕快再進去我們會積極處理市長真的真的很丟臉啊你看一下這個情況我們會積極處理我們已經在積極處理政府還沒除過人力進去的時候詐騙集團已經進去了"},{"start":819.161,"end":824.025,"text":"民眾 現在嘉義跟台南的民眾碰到什麼問題要找人來修護 要擺2個位沒有物料喔他們已經受災了超過兩個禮拜了現在要找人來修 要跟2個位要擺2個位要擺掉那些該有的材料也都沒有結果碰刺的是詐騙集團已經進去了你政府不做詐騙集團先趕進去了這框那個業者"},{"start":849.271,"end":869.258,"text":"隨便幫你拉個環部騙走了19萬還不是一個個案這個案我們第一時間就掌握也抓到了第一時間我們掌握我們就抓到了所以我們不會讓民眾被騙我們也會保護所有民眾的安全部長你不會覺得很難過嗎很丟臉嗎這本是政府該做的事情如果政府早就把這個修站做好"},{"start":871.245,"end":881.73,"text":"怎麼會有詐騙集團進去委員這是120年來我們第一次遇到的大災害我們會全力來協助對嘛這個就是我今天要提醒大家的嘛120年來的第一次從嘉義這個登陸是七級風"},{"start":884.653,"end":902.779,"text":"停電超過一百萬戶一萬八千個家庭的房子到那時候殘破不堪政府到底那時候應該不只國精進去嘛要請全力去幫忙嘛結果就是因為救援太慢弄到現在現在家裡還有跟台南還有一些民眾"},{"start":903.439,"end":930.926,"text":"我們從7月5號設置開始我們就不斷的派遣相關的軍力、民力還有各方的力量、志工、團體都進去裡面協助我想請委員就是我們一定全力去協助所有該做的事情也謝謝委員的指教剛講的是防止昨天陳平碑都看不下去跑出來講通訊有人受傷了因為信號不通"},{"start":933.593,"end":958.312,"text":"來不及救助 救治人就不幸走了我等於上個禮拜 已經進入第二個禮拜了我上禮拜回嘉義 回去台南某些地方連我電話都接不到耶 我連賴都接不到耶總統可以當著民眾的面講說 郭國文有啊郭國文有只有一個中華電信啊其他兩家咧"},{"start":960.031,"end":983.653,"text":"我跟你講 我的電話 我的手機也是中華電信啊很多地方 當然就接不到嘛我一直救災 要聯絡事情民眾看到災情 那民眾傳那個簡訊說可以提供一部分的經費趕快去買電鋸 為什麼要送電鋸樹倒 倒到一片你沒有電鋸鋸開 你怎麼去收拾那些倒下來的樹"},{"start":985.885,"end":1014.53,"text":"停電你要發電機要物資要環部電話打不通到上禮拜還是這樣子現在連陳廷輝昨天出來講在台南有些地方通信都還有問題相關的通訊設備我們都已經都已經協調各個電信廠商都已經進去了當然相關的電訊設備也都做積極的完成在處理當中所有的系統都在恢復當中"},{"start":1016.388,"end":1031.072,"text":"我請那個農業部部長那個經濟部郭部長我今天就不問你了因為等一下我們會有立法會另外來問那個光電的這次污染這個問題你今天報告裡面經濟部今天報告裡面講到說光電板大部分已經整理差不多我實際跟他 給他看一下光電板的狀況嘉義啊有四個地方有水上的這個光電"},{"start":1045.834,"end":1073.809,"text":"我去詢問就那個製縫紙上面做的那個這個已經是風災的第11天了我去的時候風災的第11天 你看右上角這是湖板 整個都已經飄到旁邊去了它本來是要承載那個光電板的變成這樣 右上角湖板都已經被打到那個岸邊去了右下角"},{"start":1075.933,"end":1097.369,"text":"那個光電板 太陽能光電板整個翻過來了我去的時候已經是風災的第十一天了整理不到十分之一結果今天經濟部說大部分已經處理好了部長你說你說 我只是請你要盡快啦因為有次長在上禮拜來打詢的時候他講說99都已經處理好了這裡面兩個很大問題 第一個有沒有污染的問題"},{"start":1104.008,"end":1131.718,"text":"在旁邊就是海喔 尤其是在宜溫然後在台南市那個光電板打上來 還把台南市的警察局的警車砸壞了好幾步很多家庭房子是被那個光電打到 還有人被打到所以一個是在安全的問題 設施的問題 第二個下面污染的問題 甚至錯誤的能源政策 你把核電停掉的時候 你要發展光電"},{"start":1133.669,"end":1154.556,"text":"山上也是光電 海裡也是光電結果安全嗎?有汙染嗎?風災來了 你為什麼禁不起風吹呢?你事後趕快要整理啊 有汙染的問題啊雜商人的問題啊 整個能源政策怎麼改啊今天時間有限"},{"start":1155.946,"end":1177.493,"text":"我就不再請教這個郭部長了我請回去趕快還有處理這個問題我知道等一下也有其他立委問這個題目這次颱風體檢了我們光電的這個一堆的弊病所以我們會追到底我請教陳部長剛剛還有民進黨立委還在造謠那個錢不過的事情就在預算裡面有一個霸王條款"},{"start":1185.93,"end":1188.131,"text":"災害防救法第57條就是你剛剛講的以緩救急對不對你剛剛有講嘛你的基金有372億耶以緩救急就是在災害發生的時候災害最優先怎麼可能簽不過問題第二個我們行政院還有災害防救的這個今年的預算50億"},{"start":1212.657,"end":1219.18,"text":"第二億倍薪80億怎麼可能出現錢不過啊你剛剛有講 你剛剛講說行政院要報到立法院對不對我給委員報告齁"},{"start":1222.945,"end":1248.807,"text":"當初您刪了這個九千萬是公務撥補基金只要撥補基金的經費被刪了以後根據預算法第二十二條我們就不能動資二倍金除非經過立法院同意對嘛 所以你又一步說送立法院但是相對的就是說我送立法院的話要多久時間才能通過包括我們現在的最佳預算還躺在立法院另外我要跟委員報告喔"},{"start":1249.548,"end":1278.391,"text":"天災的部分是非常急迫的以去年來講我們編27億結果最後是75億在那裡面我們就動資了22億的預備金很快的就能夠讓農民得到一些救助今年我們編了39億部長你不要誤導民眾你現在最直接我先問你最直接最直接的我覺得沒有誤導民眾現在救災的錢有沒有不夠你跟我講有沒有不夠我早點去講有沒有不夠但是這一次下去一定不夠"},{"start":1280.14,"end":1292.123,"text":"這次完結束以後一定不夠你知道什麼時候風災再來而且下次為什麼就不夠我跟您等一下等一下等一下我跟您報告喔部長你對的情況你怎麼講你這是救災錢有少一毛錢不夠嗎我告訴你有沒有"},{"start":1293.7,"end":1319.026,"text":"有沒有這雷馬錢不夠對著全國民眾講現在沒有不夠39億已經花了21億了畢竟這次台灣不算的已經花了21億根據過去我們現在32.5億的粗暴至少我們救助至少要40億第一個現在沒有不夠部長清清楚楚講對不對所以不要再造謠錢不夠的問題第二個我們講了第二代的大王銷款這一次"},{"start":1322.543,"end":1345.631,"text":"災害防救法第57條所有各級機關的預算我跟委員報告災害防救法本身它是用非常多的不是只有農業災害防救法裡面所需要的錢不是只有給農業部的包括經濟部包括內政部包括你剛才講的那些民房的損失這些要救助然後災害防救法以農業部來講是以天然災害救助基金為主"},{"start":1346.431,"end":1367.866,"text":"我不夠的時候我也不能動思其他的基金的部分基金您剛才說的基金我們比去年多可是相對的這個基金裡面我們列的是什麼我們列的是對肥大額的補助我們列的是對子女眷居金的一個補助我們列的是對於所謂的那個貸款的一個現金的差額補助所以我們增加的經費是"},{"start":1369.207,"end":1385.351,"text":"有他的用途不能說隨便就來挪來挪去我砍了那九千萬就是砍那個壞蛋超17彈花我們人民納稅錢5.3億的結果全部的基金372你一定講說救災不夠你其他錢用到什麼地方去了我告訴你你一直強調你一直強調糧食要我們"},{"start":1387.632,"end":1401.325,"text":"要增加公娘的經費我們在這次的預算裡面增加的又有一部分是糧食的經費所以每一項我們增加的經費都是有科目的我們不能說今天救災的我就挖洞牆補吸牆對嘛我砍了你九千臭雞蛋的錢嘛你為什麼說跟救災有關係當然有關係啊你怎麼聽不懂勒"},{"start":1408.351,"end":1428.86,"text":"那個是農業發展基金的這個小基金裡面的你講的救助基金又是另外一個基金啊跟他們不一樣你怎麼亂湊我告訴你我再講最後一次當你刪了公務撥補基金你只要刪了以後所有的基金就當你經費不夠就不能用所謂的二倍金"},{"start":1429.6,"end":1445.506,"text":"除非說經過立法院同意所以你承認兩個基金不一樣了嘛對不對一個你沒有講的是說需要通過用第二億北京要經過立法院那你就送啊部長我告訴你 天來生你送到立法院如果第二億北京為了救災第二億北京沒過我張起來 吃掉立委"},{"start":1447.347,"end":1468.66,"text":"我告訴你 天災有很高的不確定性當我們需要經費的時候 所有的經費我們如果直接報運 同意就可以用了如果今天還要透過立法院 還要經過程序委員會還要所有東西 還要表決那相對的那個時間上 沒辦法來得及啊所以我特別強調的 我只是講客觀的事實我絕對沒有造謠"},{"start":1475.652,"end":1498.903,"text":"這就是造謠第一個你的錢到目前沒有一毛錢不夠對不對我說的是以後不夠的時候我說以後的第二個你一直在講我剛講災害防救法有各式各樣的用當然補貼農民救助農民這災害損失都是我跟委員報告齁最重要你一直在造謠補定補定我跟委員講你造謠的關鍵就是說第二億北京要送立法院那你要送啊"},{"start":1500.199,"end":1511.366,"text":"我告訴你 我跟你強調天然災救助的時候它有它的高度不確定性我們的經費如果說還要再經過立法院同意我拿一點造謠 我拿一點造謠"},{"start":1517.995,"end":1532.658,"text":"為什麼要講現在錢不夠的事情我告訴你我剛剛說以後不夠我們就是請行政院把第二預備金趕快送來立法院我們通過那我們不要再做這個問題再繼續爭議主席抱歉我可以報告一下第一個現在還不到用第二預備金現在錢就夠啦剛剛部長也承認了嘛所以鄰近黨立委在造謠這是第一個不要再造謠"},{"start":1542.08,"end":1549.806,"text":"第二個你如果一直認為第二天一定要送以後嘛對不對不是這一次嘛我跟您報告現在的現在的速報是32.5億根據我們的經驗速報32.5億我們的災損要補助現金救助要補助至少超過40億柏定你過去四年每一年"},{"start":1563.243,"end":1581.375,"text":"你的天然災害救濕基金每年都去追加嘛古泥就追了十幾億啊有什麼時候沒有過基金跟動物醫生不一樣基金是可以先用的喔你要救災你錢不過你先用完並結算過去都是這樣子包括去年追了十幾億美國農業部他們的地位還要造謠"},{"start":1585.038,"end":1602.796,"text":"黑愛救急捏我跟以前從來沒有人刪這個公務撥補所以我們凍資二倍金可以直接去凍資現在不行啊所以去年度我們凍資了22億的第二預備金來救災特別是什麼特別是那個凱米、三坨耳跟康瑞颱風三個颱風我們損失了75億所以鼓勵"},{"start":1606.98,"end":1632.093,"text":"你先用了四十幾億嘛因為你去年沒有被刪啊基金的用法就是你可以先用緊急狀況就先用因為你刪了啊 刪了就不能動惡背景 你就聽不懂啦然後並結算就夠啦你也在用這個方法啊對不對 有太多太多方法台灣的法治跟救災非常完整的沒有民進黨在那邊造謠什麼救基金不過這個事情我告訴你 我絕對沒有造謠喔我絕對沒有造謠 我只是把事實我把事實呈現而已啊"},{"start":1635.034,"end":1663.212,"text":"是不是整個問題都清楚了沒有錢不夠對不對我說在今天這個時間點沒有錢不夠第三個你在講第一杯今天要送禮拜我說的是錢不夠的時候不能用我送來過你就下台好 謝謝抱歉大家今天有火氣啦我還是拜託大家到目前為止颱風第15天了我的嘉義鄉親還有很多人家裡面還是殘破不堪的"},{"start":1664.841,"end":1693.497,"text":"很多修復的只放了帆布蓋在上面有些連修理都還沒修如果是你 你敢住在裡面嗎這是多麼無奈的一個事情台南更多耶結果政府 人民就求救了總統說國金沒辦法什麼事都做要社區去自救今天我們明確的要求包括內政部派更多人力"},{"start":1695.194,"end":1706.936,"text":"國際線海關演習已經結束了還來得及 拜託一下趕快去多幫幫我們的災民趕快讓嘉義跟台南重建讓人民可以安居樂業回到正常生活 謝謝好 休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時6分）請主管救災的內政部政務次長董建宏次長，還有農業部陳駿季部長。"],["主席：董次長、陳部長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，丹娜絲重創了南臺灣，特別是嘉義跟臺南，這不只是天災，也是人禍，這是中華民國第一次國軍沒有投入救災，而且嘉義跟臺南天災那麼嚴重，救災速度非常地慢，甚至有些災情都被政府、被某些親綠的媒體蓋住了。","我看你今天的報告，這次特別是嘉義跟臺南，房屋損害，整個屋頂被颱風掀開了，牆壁都破掉了，門窗被吹破了，有18,000戶，18,000個家庭到現在很多都還沒修好，有些只能蓋著帆布，現在南部又開始下雨了，停電超過100萬戶，結果國軍竟然可以不進去幫忙。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：我們的農業……"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，其實相關的國軍……"],["張委員啓楷：先聽我講完。我們的農業、漁業、畜牧業、農企業，像嘉義跟臺南很多蘭花這次都重創了，政府有深有同感，急著去幫他們嗎？我先問你一個今天報告裡面最讓我生氣的，你是負責救災的，報告裡面說這次丹娜絲死亡人數2人，災情通報10,459件，受傷人數708人，只有2位嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["張委員啓楷：只有2位嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對，我們目前收到的所有相關通報是如此，也跟各位委員報告，我們截至7月18日17時，累積通報10,459件，2人死亡，708人受傷，我們整個災害應變中心在運作的時間裡面，共疏離了4,253人，其中也因應豪雨疏散了3,096人，11個縣市開設67處的收容所，收容了876人，那我們也……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，我先跟你討論兩條……次長，次長，你這個報告我跟你講了，重點就是剛剛講的，你說死亡人數是2位，我跟你講兩條非常寶貴的生命，你們沒有寫進去。賴清德總統是在7月11日到臺南去勘災，你知道嗎？在他勘災前已經有位我的嘉義鄉親，六腳鄉的鄉親，也是因為屋頂被風吹走了，他爬到樓上心臟病病發，一條人命，為了要修他的屋頂。賴總統在7月11號到了臺南的時候，災民很無助地跟他講：趕快派國軍來幫忙，我的屋頂被掀開了，請總統派人來幫忙，我爬不上去。總統冷冷地回了一句：「我們要自己爬。」有人真的聽了總統的話爬上去了，7月16號臺南佳里區的一位60歲的民眾，他媽媽已經98歲了，這民眾還是家裡的獨子，他為了修家裡的房子爬上去，一條人命就沒有了。如果在7月11號災民跟總統陳情的時候，國軍就去幫忙，或者是內政部多派一些人力，這寶貴的人命就不用喪失了。"],["董次長建宏：我們內政部的確有派相當的人力，我們把警大、警專的替代役1,350人都已經派過去了。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你的替代役什麼時候去的？"],["董次長建宏：我們在7月初就已經派……"],["張委員啓楷：颱風什麼時候來的？"],["董次長建宏：7月14號我們就派過去了。"],["張委員啓楷：颱風什麼時候來？你什麼時候派替代役去？"],["董次長建宏：委員，相關的人力派遣，我們必須受中央的指示、指揮才能夠派遣，我們的人力派遣也非常地迅速，需要……"],["張委員啓楷：颱風在7月6號……"],["董次長建宏：所有的人力損失都是遺憾，我們都非常地努力在協助。"],["張委員啓楷：深夜11點40分從我的故鄉嘉義登陸……"],["董次長建宏：我們會努力地去照顧所有的人，每一個人命的損失都是我們國人的損失，我們都非常地遺憾，我們也都努力地去協助、照顧所有的人。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，這個颱風7月6號的深夜就已經登陸了，120年來第一個從嘉義登陸的颱風，最大的風速是七級風，損害那麼嚴重，國軍只去了第一天就被調走了，因為要漢光演習，可是救災如同作戰哪！你剛剛講你們的替代役竟然到十幾號才去，一個禮拜多！你們怎麼對得起災民啊？"],["董次長建宏：我們每天都有190名替代役服役人員在現場服務、協助，我們是增派替代役的人員，我們不是說沒有替代役的人員在現場。"],["張委員啓楷：在國軍有史以來第一次沒有去救災的同時，你們的人力派遣這麼慢的同時，至少發生了兩起很大的悲劇，我覺得死亡人數還是要加上去，該去撫卹的、該去慰問的趕快去！第二個讓人家生氣的是，災情那麼嚴重，民眾都已經跟你們講了，當著總統的面拜託了、要求了，國軍不去，次長，你們負責救災耶，歷年來哪一次國軍沒有去？依照災害防救法，地方縣市政府要求國軍要去，對不對？如果受災非常嚴重，國軍還要主動去耶！你們有去反映嗎？有提醒總統嗎？"],["董次長建宏：國防部也出動了四千多人次前去救災、救援，中央應變中心從7月5號開始設置之後，我們就不斷地派遣相關的軍力、人力、民力、替代役，都有到現場去協助、去幫忙，相關的人力的不足或什麼，我們後續都有再補充、再補足，委員所垂詢的相關的事情……"],["張委員啓楷：你們用嘴巴救災還是根本是謊言被拆穿？我剛剛講的那個場景清清楚楚，在災後已經到了第5天的時候，台灣民眾黨已經提了正式的案子要求要重建，因為災情一件一件報回來，沒有人去幫忙，人力不夠嘛！所以才有賴清德11號到了臺南的那個場景嘛！民眾是怎麼跟他講的？他們需要國軍，國軍依照法令本來就該去；第二個，你們內政部為什麼沒有積極去爭取？第三個……"],["董次長建宏：相關的民力、人力、物力，包括國軍，我們其實都有派遣，也都有出巡，相關的紀錄都有，我們都可以調給委員看。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛講十幾號你們才派替代役，都晚了多久了……"],["董次長建宏：替代役是增加的，我們是增派替代役，本來現場就有替代役，替代役的人力本來就有。"],["張委員啓楷：你來看結果，臺南跟嘉義超過一萬八千個家庭房子的屋頂被掀走了，政府做了什麼事情？第一個，到今天還有多少戶還沒有修建完成？三、四千戶，單單臺南可能還有兩、三千戶，嘉義可能也有好幾百戶，我的故鄉東石還有一百多戶沒弄好啊！義竹更多，布袋更多，次長，你們怎麼幫忙？你們發帆布！"],["董次長建宏：我們不是只有發帆布……"],["張委員啓楷：我為了幫忙，我自己就跑了……"],["董次長建宏：我們協助了很多地方的民眾，我們請地方的工班也都過去幫忙，我們也協調了慈濟、台積電相關的工班都進去協助、幫忙，地方政府也積極跟我們合作、配合，所以許多的地方政府其實也派遣了許多的人力、物力，都在地方上面進行協助，我們的替代役、警消的替代役也都進去協助了，事實上許多人都在現場做很多的志工跟服務。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，我希望你今天詢答的時候要注意兩個很重要的事情：第一、臺南跟嘉義到現在很多人的家裡還是殘破不堪的、滿目瘡痍的；第二、今天還來得及，我覺得今天該派下去的人力、該有的物資要趕快去。賴清德總統去的第五天，災民是埋怨除了里長之外，市政府的人、中央的官員都沒有到，我現在更進一步跟你講，光是我送帆布，光是一個義竹，我就送了三批，民眾和一些善心人士知道這個災情，到了第五天看到賴總統去的時候，民眾說需要帆布，家裡是殘破不堪的，已經第五天了，多淒慘啊！你想像你家裡面五天停電，房子是殘破不堪的，你怎麼住？沒水又沒電，就是陳亭妃今天講的，有些連通訊都沒有欸！像個孤島！那時候政府在哪裡？包括一些媒體朋友，拜託你們一下，多報導，好不好？我送了三批帆布過去，已經第五天了，民眾帶我去看他們家園，殘破不堪，路上電線桿不是吹倒，是整個斷掉，有一條路短短的，我走不到30公尺，大家看一下這個畫面，電線桿是整個被風吹倒，一條路上十幾根電線桿，旁邊就是魚塭，義竹是全臺灣鱸魚最多的，好多魚都死掉了，你看那個黑暗的地方，你去看，那個魚都已經翻肚，都浮上來了，災情這麼嚴重，現在最擔心的是什麼？你家裡面如果屋頂是用帆布蓋住，次長，如果又下大雨怎麼辦？"],["董次長建宏：我們在之前就已經跟地方政府通報過，遇到相關的災害，我們其實都已經準備好後備的收容中心，在周末的時候，因為颱風的關係，我們已經請嘉義縣政府跟臺南市政府準備好收容中心，而且許多受災戶也已經都到收容中心去了。這些相關的準備，其實我們都有準備好，同時我們也積極地去照顧所有的災民，政府也在7月18號通過了相關的補助措施，也積極跟地方政府合作，發放慰問金，進行整個災害後續的準備跟修復，包括我們剛才講的，透過慈濟、透過台積電還有許多工班的協助，我們不是只有蓋帆布，包括災後整個房屋的修繕作業，我們都在進行當中。"],["張委員啓楷：到目前為止，還有好幾千戶家裡面都只用帆布，有些甚至連帆布都沒有，這是多悲慘的狀況！所以我今天嚴正地要求趕快再增派人力去，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：我們會積極處理。"],["張委員啓楷：物資趕快再送進去。次長，老實講真的很丟臉，你看一下這個……"],["董次長建宏：我們會積極處理，我們已經在積極處理當中。"],["張委員啓楷：政府還沒有足夠人力進去的時候，詐騙集團已經進去了，現在嘉義跟臺南民眾碰到什麼問題？找人來修復，要排兩個月，沒有物料喔！他們已經受災超過兩個禮拜了，現在找人來修，要再兩個月！要排兩個月才排得進去，那些該有的材料也都沒有。結果諷刺的是，詐騙集團已經進去了！你政府不做，詐騙集團先趕進去了，去誆業者、隨便幫你拉個帆布，騙走了19萬，還不是一個個案，好幾個！"],["董次長建宏：這個個案我們第一時間就掌握，也抓到了，第一時間我們掌握，就抓到了，所以我們不會讓民眾被騙，也會保護所有民眾的安全。"],["張委員啓楷：你不會覺得很難過、很丟臉嗎？這本來是政府該做的事情，如果政府早就把修繕做好，怎麼會有詐騙集團進去？"],["董次長建宏：委員，這是120年來第一次遇到的大災害，我們會全力協助。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！這個就是我今天要提醒大家的，120年來的第一次，從嘉義登陸，17級風，停電超過100萬戶，1萬8,000個家庭的房子殘破不堪，那時候應該不只國軍進去，要傾全力幫忙嘛！結果就是因為救援太慢……"],["董次長建宏：我們隨時……"],["張委員啓楷：弄到現在，現在嘉義跟臺南還有一些民眾……"],["董次長建宏：我們從7月5號設置開始就不斷地派遣相關軍力、民力還有各方的力量，志工團體都進去裡面協助，我想請委員就是……我們一定全力協助所有該做的事情，也謝謝委員的指教。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛講的是房子，昨天陳亭妃都看不下去跑出來講，通訊，有人受傷了，因為訊號不通來不及救治，人就不幸走了。連上個禮拜，已經進入第二個禮拜了，我上禮拜回嘉義、回去臺南某些地方，連我的電話都接不到！我都接不到耶！總統可以當著民眾的面講郭國文有，只有一個中華電信啊！其他兩家哩？我跟你講，我的電話、我的手機也是中華電信的，很多地方我都接不到嘛！我要去救災、聯絡事情，民眾看到災情那麼嚴重，傳簡訊說可以提供一部分的經費，趕快去買電鋸，為什麼要送電鋸？樹倒了一片，你沒有電鋸去鋸開，怎麼收拾那些倒下來的樹？停電，你要發電機、要物資、要帆布，電話打不通，到上禮拜還是這樣子！連陳亭妃昨天也出來講，在臺南有些地方通訊都還有問題。"],["董次長建宏：相關的通訊設備，我們協調各個電信廠商都已經進去了，相關的電信設備也都積極地完成、在處理當中，所有的系統都在恢復當中。"],["張委員啓楷：我請農業部部長。經濟部郭部長，我今天就不問你，因為等一下我們會有立法委員另外來問這次光電污染的問題。經濟部今天報告裡面講到，光電板大部分已經整理得差不多，我實地給大家看一下光電板的狀況，嘉義有4個地方有水上的光電，我去詢問，滯洪池上面做的那個，我去的時候，已經是風災的第11天，你看右上角這個是浮板，整個都已經飄到旁邊去了，它本來是要承載那個光電板的，變這樣子，浮板都已經被打到岸邊去了。看右下角，太陽能光電板整個翻過來了，我去的時候已經是風災的第11天了，整理不到十分之一，結果今天經濟部說大部分已經處理好了！部長你坐，我只是請你要儘快，因為次長在上禮拜答詢的時候，他講99%都已經處理好了。","這裡面有兩個很大的問題：第一個，有沒有污染的問題？旁邊就是海，而且其實是在魚塭，然後在臺南市那個光電板打上來，還把臺南市警察局的警車砸壞了好幾部耶！很多家庭的房子是被光電板打到，還有人被打到。所以一個是安全的問題、設置的問題，第二個，現在有沒有污染的問題，甚至錯誤的能源政策？你把核電停掉的時候，你要發展光電，山上也是光電，海裡也是光電，結果安全嗎？有污染嗎？風災來了，為什麼禁不起風吹？你事後趕快要整理啊！有污染的問題、什麼砸傷人的問題，整個能源政策怎麼改，今天時間有限，我就不再請教郭部長了，請回去趕快好好處理這個問題，我知道等一下也有其他立委會問這個題目，這次颱風體檢了光電的一堆弊病，這個我們會追到底。","請教陳部長，剛剛有民進黨立委還在造謠那個錢不夠的事情，救災的預算裡面有一個霸王條款，災害防救法第五十七條，就是你剛剛講的，移緩濟急，對不對？你剛剛也講，你的基金有372億，移緩救急就是在災害發生的時候，災害最優先，怎麼可能有錢不夠的問題？","第二個，行政院還有災害防救的今年的預算50億，第二預備金80億，怎麼可能出現錢不夠的情形呢？你剛剛也講，你講行政院要報到立法院，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，當初您刪了這個9,000萬是公務撥補基金，只要撥補基金的經費被刪了以後，根據預算法第二十二條，我們就不能動支二備金，除非經過立法院同意。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！所以你留了一步說送立法院，但是你送立法院，立法院……不夠嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：相對的就是，我送立法院的話要多久時間才能通過？包括我們現在的追加預算還躺在立法院。另外我要跟委員報告，天災的部分是非常急迫的，以去年來講，我們編27億，結果最後是75億，在那裡面我們就動支了22億預備金，很快地就能夠讓農民得到一些救助；今年我們編了39億。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你不要誤導民眾，你現在最直接……"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對沒有誤導民眾。"],["張委員啓楷：我先問你這一題，最直接的……"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對沒有誤導民眾。"],["張委員啓楷：現在救災的錢有沒有不夠，你跟我講，有沒有不夠？摸著良心講……"],["陳部長駿季：目前沒有不夠，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有不夠……錢不夠嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這一次下去一定不夠，這一次結束以後一定不夠。"],["張委員啓楷：那什麼時候風災再來？而且下次為什麼就不夠？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟你……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟你報告……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你對著全國民眾講，你這次救災的錢有少一毛錢、不夠嗎？有沒有？有沒有真的不夠一毛錢？對著全國民眾講。"],["陳部長駿季：現在沒有不夠，39億已經花了21億了，這次颱風不算，已經花了21億。根據過去，我們現在32.5億的初報，救助至少要40億。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，現在沒有不夠，部長清清楚楚講了，對不對？所以不要再造謠錢不夠的問題。第二個我講的……"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得……不是……"],["張委員啓楷：救災的霸王條款，災害防救法第五十七條，所有各級機關的預算，為了救災……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，災害防救法本身它是用了非常多的……"],["張委員啓楷：移緩去救急，救災第一。"],["陳部長駿季：不是只有農業，災害防救法裡面所需要的錢不是只有給農業部的，包括經濟部、內政部，包括你剛才講的民房損失這些要救助，那是災害防救法。以農業部來講，是以天然災害救助基金為主，我不夠的時候，我也不能動支其他的基金部分。您剛才說的基金，我們比去年多，可是相對的，這個基金裡面我們列的是什麼？我們列的是對肥料的補助、我們列的是對子女就學金的一個補助、我們列的是對於所謂貸款的現金之差額補助，所以我們增加的經費是有它的用途，不能夠隨便就挪來挪去。"],["張委員啓楷：我砍了那9,000萬就是砍那個壞蛋、超思雞蛋花我們人民納稅錢5.3億，結果全部的基金372億，你說救災不夠，其他的錢你用到什麼地方去了？你剛剛講的，到目前你沒有……對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，你一直強調，要增加公糧的經費，我們在這次的預算裡面增加的也有一部分是糧食經費，所以每一項我們增加的經費都是有科目的，不能說今天救災的我就挖東牆補西牆。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！我砍了你9,000萬臭雞蛋的錢嘛！你為什麼說跟救災有關係？"],["陳部長駿季：當然有關係啊！"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼有關係？"],["陳部長駿季：你怎麼聽不懂哩？"],["張委員啓楷：那個是農業發展基金的、這個小基金裡面的，你講的救助基金又是另外一個基金啊！A跟B不一樣，怎麼亂湊！「竹篙湊菜刀」，胡亂拼湊！"],["陳部長駿季：我哪有亂湊！我告訴你，再講最後一次，當你刪了公務撥補基金，你只要刪了以後，所有基金當經費不夠的時候，就不能用所謂的二備金，除非經過立法院同意。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你承認兩個基金不一樣了嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，你講的是，用第二預備金要經過立法院，那你就送啊！部長！你送到立法院……"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，天然災害……"],["張委員啓楷：如果你為了救災把第二預備金送到立法院卻沒過，我張啓楷辭掉立委！"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，天災有很多……"],["張委員啓楷：如果你送第二預備金來，立法院過了，你下台！"],["陳部長駿季：天災有很高的不確定性，當我們需要經費的時候，所有的經費我們如果直接報院同意就可以用了，如果今天還要透過立法院、還要經過程序委員會、所有的東西還要表決，那相對的，時間上根本沒辦法來得及啊！所以我特別強調，我只是講客觀的事實，我絕對沒有造謠！"],["張委員啓楷：你這就是造謠！第一個，你的錢到目前沒有一毛錢不夠，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我說的是以後不夠的時候！"],["張委員啓楷：根據霸王條款，你的錢隨時可以拿來救災……"],["陳部長駿季：我說以後……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你一直在講的，我剛剛講，災害防救法有各式各樣的用途，當然，補貼農民、救助農民、災害損失都是……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：最重要，你一直在造謠……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員講……"],["張委員啓楷：部長、部長，你造謠的關鍵就是第二預備金要送立法院，那你就送啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我一直……"],["張委員啓楷：你就送啊！我現在就跟你賭啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟你強調，天然災害救助的時候有它……"],["張委員啓楷：你送了沒有過，我張啓楷辭掉立委！"],["陳部長駿季：有它的高度不確定性，我們的經費如果還要再經過立法院同意……"],["張委員啓楷：你根本在造謠！你第二預備金趕快送，送來有過的話，你就下台！"],["陳部長駿季：我哪一點造謠？我哪一點造謠？"],["張委員啓楷：那你為什麼要講現在錢不夠的事情？有不夠嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我是說以後不夠！我說以後不夠！"],["主席：張委員，我們就請行政院把第二預備金趕快送來立法院，我們通過，那我們不要再就這個……"],["張委員啓楷：主席，抱歉！他這次錢夠，不用……"],["主席：我們不要繼續爭議，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：主席，抱歉，我跟你報告一下。"],["主席：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，現在還不到要用第二預備金的時候，現在錢就夠，剛剛部長也承認了嘛！所以民進黨立委都在造謠，說錢不夠……"],["陳部長駿季：今天這個時候錢是夠了……"],["張委員啓楷：這是第一個，不要再造謠！第二個，你如果一直認為第二預備金要送，以後嘛！對不對？不是這一次嘛！送來立法院，不過，我下台；過了，你下台！"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在的速報是32.5億，根據我們的經驗，速報32.5億，我們的災損要補助，現金救助的補助至少會超過40億！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，過去4年，天然災害救助基金每一年都在追加，去年就追加了四十幾億啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們是用……"],["張委員啓楷：有什麼時候沒有過？"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是那個時候……"],["張委員啓楷：基金和公務預算不一樣，基金是可以先用的啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你……"],["張委員啓楷：你要救災，你錢不夠，你先用，用完以後併決算，過去都是這樣子，包括去年追加了四十幾億……"],["陳部長駿季：很抱歉，以前……"],["張委員啓楷：結果農業部在立法院造謠！"],["陳部長駿季：那要借錢耶！以前從來沒有人刪這個公務撥補，所以二備金我們可以直接動支，現在不行啊！去年度我們動支了22億的第二預備金來救災，特別是凱米、山陀兒和康芮這三個颱風，我們損失了75億。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！所以去年你先用了四十幾億嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：因為去年沒有被刪啊！"],["張委員啓楷：基金的用法就是你可以先用，緊急狀況救災先用，去年就用來……"],["陳部長駿季：但是因為你刪了啊！刪了就不能動二備金，你怎麼聽不懂啊！"],["張委員啓楷：用了四十幾億，然後併決算就過了啊！你也可以用這個方法啊！對不對？有太多、太多方法！臺灣的救災有一套非常完整的法制，沒有民進黨在那邊造謠，說什麼基金不夠這樣的事情！"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，我絕對沒有造謠喔！我絕對沒有造謠，我只是把事實呈現出來而已啊！"],["張委員啓楷：今天整個問題都清楚了！沒有錢不夠，對不對？移緩濟急，你可以先移去用……"],["陳部長駿季：我說，在今天這個時間點沒有錢不夠。"],["張委員啓楷：第三個，你講第二預備金要送立法院……"],["陳部長駿季：我說的是錢不夠的時候，不能……"],["張委員啓楷：你說現在沒有，以後你送來，過的話，你就下台！","好，謝謝。","抱歉，大家今天有火氣。我還是拜託大家，到目前為止，颱風第15天了，我的嘉義鄉親還有很多人家裡面還是殘破不堪的，很多修復的只是把帆布蓋在上面，有些連修理都還沒有修，如果是你，你敢住在裡面嗎？這是多麼無奈的事情！臺南更多耶！人民已經求救了，結果總統說國軍沒辦法什麼事都做，要社區去自救。今天我們明確地要求，包括內政部派更多人力。國軍現在漢光演習已經結束了，還來得及，拜託一下！趕快去多幫幫我們的災民，讓嘉義和臺南重建，讓人民可以安居樂業，回到正常的生活。謝謝。"],["主席：休息10分鐘。","休息（10時34分）","繼續開會（10時44分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-21"],"gazette_id":"1146802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及交通部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復\n情形」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146802_00001"}}},{"id":"163218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03307e70a03ca0b9614520b1db156f44bc8bc26138795b0ef11c5be214a16da4c103fba9c3d2f6a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"09:53:52 - 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董事長知道這個狀態嗎"},{"start":279.108,"end":290.419,"text":"我跟委員報告因為國營事業需要考試所以不會有移工而包商的包商可以有移工所以說我們看到所有的一個感電事故當中的時候包商發生的情況多所以我想請教一下"},{"start":297.546,"end":313.699,"text":"以目前因為今年開始的時候開放的這個部分包商可以去申請移工的部分我們大概需要多少的那個工人來補充這樣子的一個配線配電外線的一個部分大概需要多少的人力才足夠"},{"start":314.44,"end":330.985,"text":"跟委員報告因為包商的部分是協助台電一起來做工程的施作那其實他跟工程的量體有關原來我們是在做例行的工作可是這次颱風之後我們可能會增加很多真的是要補強的"},{"start":332.665,"end":348.174,"text":"是 所以我們就是希望說就是台電因為台灣每天都會有颱風啦每年季都會有颱風所以針對這樣的問題的時候我們希望能夠有一個更好的制度然後對於這樣子基層的台電員工的時候能夠有比較多的保障"},{"start":349.415,"end":366.137,"text":"補充一個訊息可不可以這是其中一個部分我講台電本身台電本身我當董事長以後這三年台電增加了超過兩千名的員工成長率是8.7%"},{"start":368.171,"end":385.705,"text":"那我想說這一段時間以來我們其實很清楚知道說我們需要努力的來增加那關鍵是經濟部非常非常的支持其實過去是一個管控人員的狀況好的 董事長這個部分你如果說要針對這個部分你可以給我後續的訊明資料因為我還有一個問題要問然後我是針對今天針對這樣子的一個基層"},{"start":392.883,"end":416.177,"text":"勞工 基層員工他們的一個工作的一個狀態我們特別提出關心所以說經濟部也跟勞動部做了一個溝通那如果說這個部分也顯然就是我們要解決問題的方法之一所以我們希望說到底需要多少然後目前有多少的時候我們還需要勞動部這邊配合所以你給我一個完整的書面資料好不好好那接下來是我想請教一下郭部長就是我們"},{"start":418.612,"end":428.212,"text":"鄧麗君我們行政院副院長是不是這個禮拜還要再到美國去談關稅的問題是的是嗎那我在想說因為我們看到之前"},{"start":430.014,"end":447.331,"text":"就是7月8號賴總統公布出來的這個照片的時候在講對冷關稅裡面其實我發現其實經濟部跟農業部都不在這樣子的一個照片當中可是我們覺得對冷關稅的談判裡面經濟部跟農業部肯定是重點重中之重所以我比較好奇的狀態是說再比方說7月11號"},{"start":451.795,"end":478.474,"text":"行政院副院長他們回來的時候當時是肯定還沒有談成一個條件那是不是因為我們經濟部跟農業部這邊提供出來的談判籌碼還不夠所以這一次的時候回來之後在做了這樣的溝通之後我們是不是還有準備新的談判籌碼要過去談這部分可不可以請部長做一個簡單回應報告委員我想因為我不是實際的這個談判小組內容我不是很清楚"},{"start":479.415,"end":495.338,"text":"所以沒有辦法回答委員的詢問不過我們總是在談判上面美方要求我們對於出國管制對於我們邊境的防護有高度的期許所以當初我們編了費用的時候大家輿論在講說"},{"start":503.96,"end":530.679,"text":"國防跟這個海巡的這個費用要拿掉什麼所以這個引起美方非常大的關注所以我想先請教一下針對這次因為8月1號也快到了但你剛剛提到說它可以再延那你覺得我們有沒有可能跟美國在8月1號之前把這部分把它給談下來然後稅率大概會落在什麼樣子的一個range因為大家都非常的擔心東亞這邊大概只剩下台灣還沒有談出來"},{"start":533.867,"end":551.638,"text":"這個匯率會落到哪裡要這個去談我想這個不是我在這邊可以臆測的那我想跟委員報告我們大家都非常的努力希望能夠爭取到目標放在哪裡 稅率我們會非常努力我們希望能夠跟我們的競爭國談出來一個比我們的競爭國家更好的這個稅率"},{"start":552.699,"end":581.202,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那我向這邊我想接下來問一下農業部長因為這個美國貿易代表3月曾經提交一個2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告特別點名台灣這邊包括了一個美豬美牛馬鈴薯然後稻米跟基改食品米酒的稅率這個問題然後他特別提到這個部分是不必要的貿易障礙那我想請教一下部長他裡面甚至也特別提到要希望說台灣這邊要取消"},{"start":582.003,"end":592.565,"text":"學童營養午餐不得使用基改食物的禁令針對這些部分的時候我想請教一下部長我們這些部分有哪些部門會繼續堅持還是會有一些妥協"},{"start":593.727,"end":612.737,"text":"第一個委員報告有關於基改食品競技校園這個部分是衛福部的主管的一個權責那就農業部來講其實我們關切的是國內的農業的生產那在這次關稅的一個談判過程中當然美方有美方的期待那我們也有我們要堅持的"},{"start":613.197,"end":629.893,"text":"那我們的堅持就是一定要確保糧食安全確保我們的產業永續而且更重要的是要保障我們農民的權益所以在談判過程中我們還是會針對這三個原則去做有效的溝通希望能夠找到一個大家都雙贏的或互補的這樣的一個結果"},{"start":633.576,"end":658.202,"text":"是 部長 我說台北貿易肯定是重要 關稅問題肯定是重要可是對於國內的健康問題肯定也非常重要那麼我們希望農業部這邊該監測的部門務必一定要堅持住 好不好這個我想那個包括行政院也特別提到就是我們一定會確保我們國人的一個健康這個是我想一個非常重要的一個前提OK 好 謝謝陳部長那我接下來想要問 因為賴總統請問一下那個次長"},{"start":663.223,"end":675.675,"text":"交通部 陳次長因為賴總統預計八月份要出訪中南美那可能會過境紐約跟達拉斯那麼在這過程當中的時候其實大家就思考到一個狀態就是說是不是會在美國的時候賴總統會在美國的時候宣布對美國的一個波音公司的一個採購案"},{"start":685.41,"end":701.312,"text":"這邊可不可以請次長做一個簡單回應是我想跟委員報告一下有關航空公司的這個採購案我想這是公司裡頭他會整體的考量那至於說總統出訪的時候會不會有相關的一個宣布我個人並不曉得"},{"start":702.553,"end":731.113,"text":"因為交通部對於整個我們飛機的採購肯定其實是有一些影響力的啦那我知道說其實飛機採購當中其實在這一次很多國家的一個對聯台灣當中也發生了一定的一個影響力所以我們如果說要對於美國有一個航空器的一個採購的時候當然是一個台灣條件當中之一那我們希望說能夠幫台灣爭取到最好的一個條件能夠讓整個台灣的經濟整體其實是往好的方向去發展的"},{"start":731.857,"end":737.206,"text":"那這部分就請我們經濟部、農業部跟我們交通部這邊都一起努力謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時54分）謝謝主席。請經濟部長郭智輝、台電董事長曾文生、農業部長陳駿季還有交通部政次陳彥伯。"],["主席：郭部長、曾董事長、陳部長、陳次長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長早。這一次主席安排了丹娜絲颱風之後的專案報告，我想對於這次颱風重創南臺灣的部分，其實我們也都非常難過，尤其針對台電確實也受到了一些損失，在當中我們也看到了台電基層員工，在搶救後續相關問題的時候，其實非常、非常地認真，當中也出現了感電事故的問題。尤其看到了IG上面的留言說，他三天沒睡幾個小時，針對這個部分，因為台電在事後就說會馬上進行檢討報告，我想請教這個檢討報告出來了沒有？大概什麼時候可以出來？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，對於這些輪班的工作，台電會做一些討論。我們上個禮拜六晚上9點才把所有的電力修復，今天是星期一的早上，會儘快來處理這個事情，我們昨天已經在檢討這件事。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，其實我知道電的問題，你們很努力在做。今天想特別問的是基層勞工這個部分，因為會提到三天沒睡幾個小時，是不是在制度上面，對於超時工作、疲勞工作，其實是有一個不完善的制度，我想針對這部分來跟董事長就教，所以現在台電這邊……"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我們會去理解跟瞭解，其實這一段時間以來，有很多工班派出去搶修，會看到很多畫面是很多的民眾感謝台電同仁修復，但我們會遇到一個狀況是，一個案子在那個地方做，到了晚上10點，是要繼續把它做完，還是跟所有的民眾說抱歉，我們明天再來？委員，如果是你在現場，你會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以這個部分，我們就碰到了一個問題，如果會這樣子的超時工作，然後三天沒睡幾個小時，就顯然人力很缺嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：三天沒睡幾個小時這件事，這個是一個訊息，我覺得要有一個普遍的狀況。"],["鄭委員正鈐：調查之後，對，所以我想說一定是人力有短缺的部分，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：我相信同仁一定非常辛勞。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，當然，對於台電基層員工那時候的辛苦，我們都看在眼裡，而且感同身受也非常地肯定。我只是在想，以整個經濟部跟整個台電公司來說，要給他們一個怎麼樣好的制度，當然風災這件事情不是每天都會發生，可是還是要有一個比較好的制度去因應。我看到的一個情況就是，在整個經濟部油、電、糖、水下面的重大工安事故當中，台電的比重是最高的，占據一半以上。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我覺得這些事情要去除以百萬小時，就是工量、員工人數等等的母數要進來平均，會比較準確。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以我想把今天這個問題再往下，把它focus在比方說……"],["曾董事長文生：我們不希望發生任何工安事件。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想請教在112年之前，因為現在看到經濟部提供出來的數字，只在113年3月以前，那麼在這之前，台電的重大職災當中發生感電事故的次數有幾次？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我可不可以回去查資料？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。我可以直接跟你講，目前在113年3月之前總共有5次，那不包含2月份有出現的一次資料，這是經監察院統計出來的資料。在這次數當中，我發現承攬商的次數其實更多，我只是想針對這個部分，因為基本上一定是人力有缺，所以經濟部跟勞動部要求開放外籍人士進來做配電外線的工作，我想請教一下，董事長知道這個狀態嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，因為國營事業需要考試，所以不會有移工，包商的部分……"],["鄭委員正鈐：包商可以有移工。"],["曾董事長文生：可以有移工。這是確定的，是包商。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們看到所有的感電事故當中，包商發生的情況多。"],["曾董事長文生：他們陸陸續續在申請。"],["鄭委員正鈐：請教一下以目前，因為今年開始開放包商可以申請移工的部分，請問大概需要多少的工人來補充配電外線工作，大概需要多少的人力才足夠？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，因為包商的部分是協助台電一起做工程的施作，其實它跟工程的量體有關，原來我們是在做例行的工作，可是這次颱風之後，可能會增加很多真的是要補強的大量工作，所以我有跟委員報告我們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們希望就是台電……因為臺灣每年幾乎都會有颱風，針對這樣的問題，我們希望能夠有一個更好的制度，對於基層的台電員工能夠有比較多的保障。"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員補充一個訊息，可不可以？"],["鄭委員正鈐：外包的廠商，肯定是我們解決問題的一個來源之一。"],["曾董事長文生：這是其中一個部分。我講台電本身，我當董事長以後，這三年台電增加了超過2,000名的員工，成長率是8.7%，這一段時間以來，我們其實很清楚知道需要努力地來增加，關鍵是經濟部非常非常地支持，過去是一個管控人員的狀況，這3年經濟部非常支持，給予我們非常多的員額，給我們增加了……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好的，董事長，你如果要針對這個部分，可以給我後續的書面資料，因為我還有一個問題要問。"],["曾董事長文生：沒問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我今天是針對基層員工的工作狀態特別提出關心，經濟部也跟勞動部做了溝通，如果這個部分顯然就是解決問題的方法之一，那麼到底需要多少？然後目前有多少？還需要勞動部這邊配合，所以你給我一個完整的書面資料，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來我想請教一下郭部長，鄭麗君我們行政院副院長，是不是這禮拜還要再到美國談關稅的問題？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是嘛，因為我們看到之前7月8日賴總統公布在講對等關稅的這個照片，我發現經濟部跟農業部都不在照片當中，可是我們覺得對等關稅的談判，經濟部跟農業部肯定是重點，重中之重，所以我比較好奇的是，7月11日行政院副院長他們回來的時候，當時肯定還沒有談成條件，是不是因為經濟部跟農業部這邊提供出來的談判籌碼還不夠，所以這一次回來做了溝通之後，是不是還有準備新的談判籌碼要過去談？這部分可不可以請部長做一個簡單回應？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想因為我不是實際的談判小組，內容我不是很清楚，所以沒有辦法回答委員的詢問。不過我們總是在這個談判上面，美方要求我們對於出口管制、對於邊境防護有高度的期許，所以當初我們編這個費用的時候，大家輿論說國防跟海巡的費用要拿掉什麼的，引起美方非常大的關注，這點我想在這裡補充報告一下。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，所以部長，我想先請教一下，針對這一次，因為8月1日也快到了，但你剛才提到說可以再延，你覺得我們有沒有可能跟美國在8月1日之前，把這部分談下來？然後稅率大概會落在什麼range？因為大家都非常擔心，東亞這邊大概只剩下臺灣還沒有談出來。"],["郭部長智輝：稅率會落到哪裡，這個要去談，我想這不是我在這邊可以臆測的。跟委員報告，我們大家都非常努力，希望能夠爭取到一個……"],["鄭委員正鈐：稅率目標放在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會非常努力，希望能夠談出來一個比我們的競爭國家更好的稅率。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好，謝謝。","我想接下來問一下農業部部長，因為美國貿易代表署3月曾提交2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告，特別點名臺灣這邊，包括了美豬、美牛、馬鈴薯、稻米、基改食品跟米酒稅率問題，它提到這個部分是不必要的貿易障礙，甚至也特別提到希望臺灣取消學童營養午餐不得使用基改食物的禁令，針對這些部分，我想請教一下部長，有哪些部分會繼續堅持？還是會有一些妥協？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個跟委員報告，有關於基改食品進校園部分是衛福部的主管權責。就農業部來講，其實我們關切的是國內的農業生產，在這次關稅的談判過程中，當然美方有美方的期待，我們也有我們要堅持的，我們的堅持就是一定要確保糧食安全，確保產業永續，而且更重要的是保障農民的權益，所以在談判過程中，我們還是會針對這三個原則去做有效的溝通，希望能夠找到一個大家都雙贏或互補的結果。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，部長，我覺得臺美貿易、關稅問題肯定是重要，可是對於國人的健康問題，肯定也非常重要，我們希望農業部這邊該堅持的部分，請務必一定要堅持住，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我想包括行政院也特別提到，就是我們一定會確保國人的健康，這個是非常重要的前提。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝陳部長。","我接下來想要請問一下交通部陳次長，因為賴總統預計8月份要出訪中南美，可能會過境紐約跟達拉斯，那麼在這過程當中，大家就思考到一個狀態，賴總統是不是會在美國的時候，宣布對美國波音公司的採購案？這邊可不可以請次長做一個簡單回應？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，跟委員報告一下，有關航空公司的採購案，我想公司裡頭會整體的考量，至於總統出訪的時候會不會有相關的宣布，我個人並不曉得。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為交通部對於整個飛機採購肯定是有一些影響力，我知道飛機採購其實在這次很多國家的對等談判當中，也發生了一定的影響力，所以我們如果要對美國採購航空器，當然是其中一個談判條件，希望能夠幫臺灣爭取到最好的條件，讓臺灣的經濟整體性是往好的方向發展，這部分就請經濟部、農業部跟交通部都一起努力，謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請張啓楷委員詢答，張啓楷委員詢答結束後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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現在才7月而已颱風期有可能到9月10月都還有颱風那接下來遇到農民的災損的時候怎麼辦不過我想齁"},{"start":143.477,"end":171.196,"text":"就算沒有辦法去凍飾二杯精那我們還是會想辦法用移緩季節或用其他的方式來爭取我這邊只要告訴我們所有的全國的農民齁不管怎麼樣天災我們農業部一定站在第一線跟他們在一起經費的部分我們一定會來想辦法所以雖然經費已經沒有了但是農業部還是會想辦法就對了對我們還是會去想辦法還是會想辦法請跟院長去找出方法出來好嗎好不好也跟立法院持續的溝通好不好"},{"start":171.636,"end":190.228,"text":"應該要找到一些方法解決這個問題啦就是任何一個政黨執政都遇到天災但遇到天災的時候我們都希望支持現在每個國民黨的縣市首長也請求支援支持啊就現在經費這樣子狀況下你要國家怎麼做是怎麼來協助這些農民每個農民都希望每個受災民都希望政府來支持結果現在這樣狀態怎麼做"},{"start":192.076,"end":216.551,"text":"我希望部長全力的來繼續跟院長院也跟包括國民兩黨持續溝通民進黨是全力支持的但是國民兩黨這一塊持續溝通什麼樣的有沒有什麼樣的方式能夠把這件事情能夠做一個妥善的解決好不好好接下來我請教一下部長跟曾董事長好嗎那個郭部長郭部長 曾董事長郭部長我請教一下一樣的問題從寬從幽從速從簡經濟部門有把持這樣的原則"},{"start":222.601,"end":239.658,"text":"是的有照這樣在做嗎我們有照這樣在做好那經濟部的經費上面有沒有遇到問題我們現在就是就我們這個我們現在有一部分就是沒有"},{"start":241.055,"end":259.208,"text":"不足的部分那我想我們跟農業部也是一樣就因為這是一個災難所以我們會想辦法把這個不足的經費盡量來這個爭取跟院長這邊爭取我再回來我待會再問一下部長好了我先問一下台電董事長好了好不好董事長"},{"start":261.039,"end":289.92,"text":"這一次台電其實很辛苦啦 因為就像上次一樣 因為像高雄過去也遇到山坨等等那個風力之強 17級的風那個掃掉連電線桿直接把你掃斷那恐怕是很多人沒有看到是難以想像電線桿裡面還有鐵絲的 全部直接掃斷掉而且斷一整排的 因為不會只有那一支斷 其他全斷所以這一次從台南 從嘉義上來 其實造成了這個我們的電力上很大的一個重創"},{"start":292.088,"end":294.177,"text":"我們的整個恢復了嗎 目前狀況恢復到什麼樣的狀態"},{"start":295.134,"end":320.947,"text":"那個公園報告我們在禮拜六的晚上九點他就已經全部的恢復 都恢復了最晚的是在嘉義縣 因為嘉義縣是颱風登陸的地點我還是要謝謝 其實真的還是要謝謝台電啦齁其實台電的第一層的同仁每次在遇到這種風災我的選區都是在臨海區啦 前陣小港 旗津都是受風面第一排每一次只要發生狀況的時候第一線都是拚了命在救的"},{"start":322.227,"end":344.886,"text":"颱風正大的時候 風雨正大的時候 台電的第一線員工都在第一線用命在救 救復電然後甚至還遇到很多是高壓電 甚至遇到是鐵板被吹起來壓在高壓電上面 還是要拼命的想辦法你不處理掉那些東西就是沒辦法復電所以是拼了命的在那個 那我想要講的是台電是國家的台電 台電是人民的台電"},{"start":346.664,"end":375.104,"text":"上次的整個經費全部都給過唯獨就把台電的一千億整個扣下來其實坦白講我是覺得非常的難過啦就是說台電這次在支持台電就給台電更多的一些資源但是現在完全完全把那所謂的能源政策的問題全部把它丟給台電去丟包給台電去承擔我認為這個對台電是非常非常不公平台電的士氣也會受到很大的影響嘛我董事長接下來台電在這些財政上會不會有壓力"},{"start":376.971,"end":393.522,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說因為其實災損的部分我們還要統計因為將近3500根電桿那其實我問一下台電這次這樣的損失大概會多少我們現在還在統計跟委員報告出估大概多少至少損失了多少"},{"start":394.851,"end":413.659,"text":"應該有10億啦台電損失了10億以上應該有10億左右所以這個部分就台電又要擔起來就台電已經過去來政府因為扛住了整個動漲電價然後穩定物價的這些責任現在還在加10億上去那這還不包括很多人力上面的成本吧"},{"start":415.24,"end":442.965,"text":"我們有全部都一起做一些統計跟估計大概是這樣但是我要跟委員報告現在是我們是損害掉的我們儘快能夠把它恢復但接下來的狀況是我相信今天一定很多委員問我們那接下來怎麼辦其實我們有在考慮接下來怎麼辦但剛才部長的報告也有提了大概的一些方向那這些其實都是需要因為電網的韌性需要投資需要經費而且其實這不是台灣的一個國家的問題"},{"start":444.105,"end":461.481,"text":"全世界都遇到這樣子的問題最近很多的國際媒體報導各個國家都在增加電網的投資那增加電網的投資的經費有政府的補貼也有透過電價調整來反映的一大堆這種狀況我覺得我們只要稍微檢視一下外電大概都看得到"},{"start":462.262,"end":479.859,"text":"特別是這些的很多的像過去以來比如像高雄很多因為防災型的關係所以我們努力的做了一些地下化甚至有些強韌的做法所以其實那個災情就會減少我認為這一次的整個沿海地區很多都必須要做更多的強化更正性這個都需要投入更多的一些資源"},{"start":480.579,"end":495.809,"text":"後續的改善可能真的是會比較需要時間也需要更多的政府的各個單位來配合因為包含入權包含等等相關的狀況這個我們它當然資源是經費是一個非常重要的元素"},{"start":496.109,"end":514.905,"text":"那我問一下台電這樣的話會不會有財務上的壓力如果遲遲的沒辦法撥補政府遲遲沒有辦法撥補其實這應該政府給的政策是政府在定的嘛那政府要求你不漲電價政府認為你們不應該希望穩定住民生的這個電價的時候不給你漲的時候那你承受了虧損那這個會不會有很大的壓力"},{"start":516.38,"end":521.305,"text":"跟委員報告財務一直是台電的壓力那這會不會影響到台電的軍心士氣我跟委員報告就是說我們"},{"start":528.564,"end":556.773,"text":"政府對於台電的一些經費上的支持是對台電的肯定跟鼓勵基本上肯定了台電事實上在整個國際燃料價格上漲的時候扛住了國內通膨的壓力我們一再說明世界上很多國家都在補貼很多國家調的因為大家都希望穩定住電價穩定住物價非常多的通貨膨脹因為一旦電價物價提升了之後造成了國家的整體損失是更大的嘛"},{"start":557.594,"end":586.721,"text":"所以大家都是用這樣的策略在進行在處理的就唯獨台灣遇到一個非理性的國會的多數兩黨然後然後用這樣的方式來對待台電我希望董事長繼續努力了好不好這個然後另外鼓舞台電的同仁們這個我們會全力以赴再繼續在法院爭取這邊的軍隊台電來說台電的同仁把電網修復就是我們的責任我們一定會努力把這個工作做好我們也開始在討論後續強化的一些工作"},{"start":587.401,"end":599.81,"text":"就是及早來規劃 我們全力來支持同時現在給予台電同仁更多的鼓勵啦 第一線特別是第一線的同仁 辛苦的同仁用命在幫大家復電的這些同仁 給他們更多的鼓勵我們一定會轉當 會想...部長 需要請教一下部長啦齁部長我還是要問一下齁 這個..."},{"start":604.4,"end":618.38,"text":"大家現在關心這個美國的這個稅率的問題董事長請坐啦 董事長請坐非的問題現在大家擔心如果8月1號快要到了如果沒有談出一個結果出來的話會不會受到影響會不會被回復到這個32這樣的狀況部長現在談的最新狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":621.324,"end":641.289,"text":"我們現在還在談判中嘛還在談判中 副院長到美國再次去談了嘛 是嗎這個是第四次嘛第四次去談了嘛 對不對那現在努力的朝向在10跟20之間去做努力嘛 是嗎是在這樣的目標下嗎我們始終是希望能夠談出一個對國內有利的這樣的一個稅率"},{"start":643.275,"end":663.732,"text":"也做了各種的準備嘛一旦如果有任何狀況需要去支持各企業各什麼的也都做的準備我想我們的談判小組他們都有做充分的準備啦好我們期盼有好的結果那在8月1號前會談出來嗎這個結果8月1號美國他也有講嘛如果8月1號前沒有談到完整他也可以post form"},{"start":664.312,"end":689.294,"text":"所以還是會有那個我想這個都還在不確定的這個這麼多不確定的因素所以我沒有辦法跟委員報告了解 談判過程當然必須要很多的機密但我希望就是一樣鼓勵我們的談判團隊持續的加油希望幫台灣爭取到最好的一些狀況也希望讓我們的產業讓我們的農民的衝擊降到最小再來我請教一下那個油煉糖水加薪這一塊長期我們也在講部長一樣都會支持吧"},{"start":689.975,"end":702.047,"text":"我們當然是全力支持我指的也不只這些啦包括像中鋼、螳融、台船甚至漢翔等泛工股我也鼓勵其實都要支持啦因為這些都很辛苦他們也都我也認為國家應該由這些企業來帶頭調性來動整個薪資的上漲"},{"start":706.331,"end":729.113,"text":"部長同意這樣的方向嗎我們大家一起努力好一起努力最後一個問題啦上次在小港的臨海園區裡面三元的能源發生的火災燃燒了26小時燒了26小時裡面甚至有造成了這個氫氧酸等等一些危險的物質我希望部長這已經我當時上禮拜一發生的我要求兩個禮拜內提出一份報告啦部長有掌握這件事情嗎"},{"start":730.474,"end":755.956,"text":"因為那個我都在救災所以如果我希望部長了解一下整個狀況好不好因為下個禮拜整個報告要出來我們要當地跟鄉親說明就是為什麼這樣的場具有這種高風險高危險的場為什麼會離市民這麼近經濟部的相關有沒有相關的審核的責任我的意思是說經濟部在你的園區內不要把這個東西直接丟給市政府有些部分該你們掌握的責任你們還是要掌握住就是"},{"start":756.977,"end":780.018,"text":"高雄小港已經承受了相當多的一些高污染甚至高危險的一些產業而這個當時你看一燒起來以後是消防員是趕快逃出來三位如果沒有逃出來恐怕都很危險的所以那只能讓他繼續在那邊燒讓他燒燒到整個自然那個然後燒掉了26個小時燒了26個小時然後裡面產生了多少的一些"},{"start":780.839,"end":804.705,"text":"有害的一些毒氣的部分當天的空污狀況其實是很糟的那我的意思是說我希望經濟部在未來在評估這些事情的時候要審慎思考至少離住宅區至少離人民要離得遠一點你不能夠在這麼近的區域雖然它是叫做臨海產業園區但是它旁邊就是居民很多的居民我們都在談大林埔遷村想把一些影響降到最低的結果我們現在又把這些具有高風險"},{"start":806.055,"end":813.647,"text":"可能有影響的又放在人民的周邊這個是人民是很難接受的我希望經濟部在這件事情上未來要加強去做把關"},{"start":814.69,"end":835.667,"text":"部長可以嗎 給我們一個承諾我們會加強來加強把關通知 幾乎該有的則也要訂進來但是報告委員 他進來的時候我們他是符合這個我們產業園區各種用地用途及使用規範辦法的第三條產業用地第一項規定為容許引進的產業部長 我就是希望請你們再去思考跟檢討"},{"start":836.288,"end":852.197,"text":"是 我們會就第一個 燃燒了26個小時他的安全他的所有的周邊一定他的消防所有的一定出了一些問題包括他的狀況顯然超出了李明軒預期的狀況了他不是一般我們所熟悉的這些廠房同時他燃燒出來的是"},{"start":854.048,"end":876.914,"text":"清氟酸有毒的這個是甚至於他有的有毒性的一些物質的這個周邊的居民其實都相當擔心的甚至於當天還有很多人說當天的空氣甚至當天的水他們都擔心這邊是有問題的報告委員那您那所這個指責的這個空氣品質監測我想我們都有設置這個空氣品質監測站"},{"start":878.496,"end":902.207,"text":"那您剛所說的部分有害空氣污染物到目前為止我想我們都沒有發現有空污的問題部長我知道了裡面在場內有一度有監測到場內一度有監測到但是我要講的是即使是在周邊也都是這種的它的擴散效應等等我的意思是說那個只是一個最低最低的標準"},{"start":902.887,"end":919.174,"text":"最低最低的標準啦這種東西放在離居民這麼近這件事情本身就有高度的爭議啦我還是要請部長思考不要完全的相信跟迷失在那所謂的監測站監測不是24小時監測監測也不是所有的周邊的點全部監測監測時"},{"start":921.095,"end":941.469,"text":"拿出來測一下他永遠有 帶有很多的不確定性在那對我來說這件事情就是不你想啦 如果是在台北市的哪一個區域裡面願意接受這樣的東西嗎台北市的任何一個區域你告訴我願意接受這樣的東西嗎那如果不行的話請臨海公衛區用更 重新調整你們的標準"},{"start":942.759,"end":966.926,"text":"重新調整表現 它這裡面會產生有毒的氣質 有毒的氣體即使是會產生有毒氣體的風險你說你沒有監測到 不代表沒有發生一度在場內是有監測到 一度在場內是有監測到監測了幾次 它不是24小時在監測 它不是隨時在監測我一直想 部長真的要將心比心站在周邊居民的角度來思考"},{"start":968.556,"end":995.026,"text":"換作這個東西如果是在中正區有人有辦法接收這樣的事情嗎隔壁有辦法接收這樣的一個廠房嗎距離幾百公尺有辦法接收這樣的廠房所以我講的是請進一步要重新調整你們的標準要更嚴格的去檢視有些該進來的廠房標準同時也要提升他的安全性這一次我看來是一堆的問題我看到是一堆的問題我希望部長就在完畢之後花一點點時間了解這個案子好不好好的謝謝部長好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時37分）主席，請陳部長、郭部長跟曾董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長、陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先問一下陳部長。部長，我們這次的風災，我們要求從優、從寬、從速、從簡，有沒有達到這樣的原則？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分就是從速的部分，從過往的這些地方政府勘災，再報上來的這個時間，我們用主動公告的方式，事實上節省公告這段時間，從1個禮拜大概節省到3天之內。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這些原則都有掌握？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：苦民所苦，人民受風災的影響，特別是這次的雨、風超出了原先的預期，所以造成了相當大的一些災情，我希望這個部分從寬、從優、從速、從簡，這個原則一定要儘快處理，而且現在才7月而已，還不知道會遇到怎樣的災害，我希望未來都是把握這樣的原則。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們一定是用同理心的角度去面對這樣的問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，因為時間有限，我接著要問的是，接下來的經費夠不夠？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，天然災害救助金在114年大概38億將近39億，我要跟委員報告，在這次颱風之前，已經用掉了22億左右，換句話說，年初開始有非常多的低溫已經造成了天然災害的損失，所以這一次的颱風一定是不夠的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這一次已經不夠用？"],["陳部長駿季：絕對是不夠用的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：農業部不夠用，這些經費怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，過去不夠用的話，我們第一時間會去跟行政院爭取二備金，但是很可惜的，立法院這一次，因為我們的公務撥補到基金的預算有被刪減，我在這邊特別強調，一旦被刪減了以後，我們就不能直接動支二備金。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也就是說，立法院藍白國會都刪減掉這個預算之後，變成你們也無法動支，因為立法院是不讓你們動支這些錢的，所以連二備金都無法動用，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是根據相關的會計規定，你只要刪了撥補基金的經費，就不能動二備金。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，接下來呢？現在才7月而已，颱風期有可能到9月、10月都還有颱風，接下來遇到農民災損的時候怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想，就算沒有辦法去動二備金，我們還是會想辦法用移緩濟急，或用其他的方式來爭取，我要告訴我們所有全國的農民，不管怎麼樣，天災我們農業部一定站在第一線，跟他們在一起，經費的部分，我們一定會來想辦法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以雖然經費已經沒有了，但是農業部還是會想辦法就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們還是會去想辦法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還是會想辦法，請跟院長找出方法出來，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也跟立法院持續地溝通，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：應該要找到一些方法解決這個問題啦！任何一個政黨執政都會遇到天災，但遇到天災的時候，我們都希望支持，現在每個國民黨的縣市首長也請求資源的支持，現在經費這樣的狀況下，你要國家怎麼做事？怎麼來協助這些農民？每個農民、每個災民都希望政府來支持，結果現在這樣狀態要怎麼做？我希望部長全力地繼續跟院長，還包括國、民兩黨持續溝通，民進黨是全力支持的啦！但是國、民兩黨這一塊要持續溝通，看有沒有什麼樣方式能夠把這件事情做一個妥善的解決，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。接下來我請教一下郭部長及曾董事長，好嗎？"],["主席：請郭部長及曾董事長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：郭部長，我請教一下，一樣的問題啦！「從寬、從優、從速、從簡」，經濟部有沒有把持這樣的原則？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有照這原則在做嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有照這樣在做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，經濟部的經費上面有沒有遇到問題？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在經費不足的部分，我想我們跟農業部也是一樣，因為這是一個災難，所以我們會想辦法把不足的經費儘量跟院長這邊爭取。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。我待會再問一下部長好了，我先問一下台電董事長，好不好？董事長，這一次台電其實很辛苦啦！因為就像上次高雄遇到山陀兒颱風侵襲時，風力之強，有17級的陣風，連電線桿都直接被掃斷，恐怕很多人沒有看到是難以想像的，電線桿裡面還有埋設鐵絲的全部直接被掃斷掉，而且斷是斷一整排的，不會只有那一支斷，其他全斷，所以這一次從臺南、從嘉義上來，造成了你們的電力上有很大的重創，你們整個的電力恢復了嗎？目前恢復到什麼樣的狀態？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我們在禮拜六的晚上九點就已經全部恢復供電……"],["賴委員瑞隆：都恢復了？"],["曾董事長文生：最晚的是在嘉義縣，因為嘉義縣是颱風登陸的地點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是要謝謝，真的還是要謝謝台電啦！其實台電的第一層同仁每次在遇到這種風災，我的選區都是在臨海區，前鎮、小港、旗津都是受風面第一排，每一次只要發生狀況的時候，第一線都是拚了命在救，當颱風正大的時候、風雨正大的時候，台電的員工都在第一線用命在搶救復電，還遇到很多是高壓電，甚至遇到是鐵板被吹起來壓在高壓電上的，還是要拚命地想辦法，不處理掉那些東西就是沒辦法復電，所以是拚了命地在救。","我想要講的是，台電是國家的台電、台電是人民的台電，上次整個經費全部都給過，唯獨就把台電的1,000億整個扣下來，其實坦白講，我是覺得非常地難過啦！這是在支持台電，就是給台電更多的一些資源，但是現在完全把所謂能源政策的問題，全部把它丟包給台電去承擔，我認為這個對台電是非常、非常不公平，台電的士氣也會受到很大的影響啦！董事長，接下來台電在這些財政上會不會有壓力？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，關於災損的部分，我們還在統計，因為將近3,500根電桿，其實……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問一下，台電這次這樣的損失大概會多少？你們粗估多少？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我們現在還在統計。"],["賴委員瑞隆：粗估大概多少？至少損失了多少？"],["曾董事長文生：應該有10億啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：台電損失了10億以上。"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在算起來應該有10億左右。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以台電又要擔起來這個部分，台電過去已經扛住了整個凍漲電價、穩定物價的這些責任，現在還要再加10億上去，這還不包括很多人力上面的成本吧？"],["曾董事長文生：我們有全部做一些統計跟估計，大概是這樣，但是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來……"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，現在是我們損害掉的要儘快能夠把它恢復，但接下來的狀況是，我相信今天一定很多委員問我們接下來怎麼辦？其實我們也在考慮接下來怎麼做，剛才部長的報告也有提了大概的一些方向，這些其實都是需要……因為電網的韌性需要投資、需要經費，而且這不是臺灣一個國家的問題，全世界都遇到這樣的問題，最近很多的國際媒體報導，各個國家都在增加電網的投資，而增加電網投資的經費有政府的補貼，也有透過電價調整來反應的，一大堆這種狀況，我覺得我們只要稍微檢視一下外電大概都看得到。"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別是這些很多的……像過去以來，比如像高雄很多因為防災型的關係，我們努力地做了一些地下化，甚至有些強韌的作法，所以那個災情就會減少。我認為這一次的整個沿海地區，很多都必須要做更多的強化跟韌性，這個都需要投入更多的一些資源，我真的……"],["曾董事長文生：後續的改善可能真的會比較需要時間，也需要更多政府的各個單位來配合，因為包含路權等等相關的狀況，當然資源及經費是一個非常重要的元素。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問一下，台電這樣的話，會不會有財務上的壓力？如果政府遲遲沒有辦法撥補，這應該是政府要給的，政策是政府在訂的嘛！政府要求你們不漲電價，政府認為你們應該要穩定住民生電價，不給你們漲的時候，你們承受的虧損，這個會不會有很大的壓力？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，財務一直是台電的壓力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這會不會影響到……"],["曾董事長文生：我要先講台電……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這會不會影響到台電的軍心士氣？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，我們政府對於台電的一些經費上的支持是對台電的肯定跟鼓勵，基本上肯定了台電在整個國際燃料價格上漲的時候，扛住了國內通膨的壓力。我們一再說明，世界上很多國家都在補貼，很多國家調的電價漲幅……"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為大家都希望穩定住電價、穩定住物價嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：造成了非常多通貨膨脹的後續問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為一旦電價及物價提升了之後，造成了國家整體的損失是更大的嘛！所以大家都是用這樣的策略在進行、在處理的。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就唯獨臺灣遇到一個非理性國會的多數兩黨，用這樣的方式來對待台電，我希望董事長繼續努力，好不好？另外還要鼓舞台電的同仁們，我們會全力以赴繼續在立法院去爭取經費。"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，對台電來說，台電的同仁把電網修復就是我們的責任，我們一定會努力把這個工作做好，我們也開始在討論後續強化的一些工作。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是及早來規劃，我們會全力來支持。"],["曾董事長文生：是的，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：同時間也給予台電同仁更多的鼓勵啦！"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別是第一線的同仁、辛苦的同仁，用命在幫大家復電的這些同仁們給他們更多的鼓勵。"],["曾董事長文生：我們一定會轉達，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請教一下部長，我還是要問一下，大家現在在關心美國稅率的問題啦！現在大家擔心8月1日快要到了，如果沒有談出一個結果出來的話，會不會受到影響？會不會回復到32%這樣的狀況？部長，現在談的最新狀況怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還在談判中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還在談判當中。副院長到美國再次去談了嘛，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這是第4次吧！"],["賴委員瑞隆：去談第4次了嘛，對不對？現在努力地朝向在10%跟20%之間做努力，是嗎？是在這樣的目標下嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們始終是希望能夠談出一個對國內有利的稅率啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：有做了各種的準備嗎？一旦如果有任何狀況需要去支持各企業的，也都做了準備嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我想我們的談判小組都有做充分的準備啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們期盼有好的結果。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在8月1日前，這個結果會談出來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：8月1日……因為美國也有講，如果8月1日前沒有談到一個很完整的，他們也可以postpone嘛！"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以還是會有那個……"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個都還有很多不確定的因素啦！所以我沒有辦法跟委員報告。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我了解。談判過程當然必須要很多的機密，但我希望就是一樣鼓勵你們的談判團隊啦！持續地加油，希望幫臺灣爭取到最好的一些狀況，也希望讓我們的產業、讓我們農漁民的衝擊都降到最小啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，我請教一下，油、電、糖、水加薪這塊，我們長期也都在講，部長應該都會支持吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是全力支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我指的也不只這些，包括像中鋼、唐榮、台船，甚至漢翔等泛公股，我也鼓勵都要支持啦！因為這些都很辛苦，我也認為國家應該由這些企業來帶頭調薪，以帶動整個薪資的上漲，部長同意這樣的方向嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們大家一起努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，一起努力。最後一個問題，上次在小港的臨海園區裡面，三元能源發生的火災燃燒了26小時，甚至造成了氫氧酸等等一些的危險物質。上禮拜一發生的，我要求兩個禮拜內提出一份報告，部長有掌握這件事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我都在救災，所以……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望部長了解一下整個狀況好不好？因為下個禮拜整個報告要出來，我們要跟當地鄉親們說明。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是這樣具有高風險、高危險的廠，為什麼會離市民這麼近？經濟部有沒有相關審核的責任？我的意思是，經濟部在你們的園區內，不要把這個東西直接丟給市政府，有些部分該你們要掌握的責任，你們還是要掌握住。高雄小港已經承受了相當多的一些高污染，甚至高危險的一些產業，而你看當時一燒起來以後，消防員趕快逃出來，如果這3位沒有逃出來，恐怕都很危險，所以只能讓它繼續在那邊燒，讓它燒了26個小時，裡面產生了多少的有害毒氣？當天的空污狀況其實是很糟的。我的意思是，希望經濟部未來在評估這些事情的時候要審慎思考，至少離住宅區、人民要遠一點，不能夠再這麼近，雖然它是叫做臨海產業園區，但是旁邊就是很多的居民。我們都在談大林蒲遷村，想把一些影響降到最低，結果現在又把這些具有高風險、可能有影響的，又放在人民的周邊，這個是人民是很難接受的。我希望經濟部在這件事情上，未來要加強把關，部長，可以嗎？給我們一個承諾。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會加強把關。"],["賴委員瑞隆：加強把關，同時經濟部該有的責任也要訂進來。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，它進來的時候是符合產業園區各種用地用途及使用規範辦法第三條關於產業用地，第一項規定為容許引進的產業……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我就是希望你們再去思考跟檢討。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會來檢討。"],["賴委員瑞隆：延燒了26個小時，它的安全、它的所有周邊、它的消防所有等等的，一定出了一些問題，包括它的狀況顯然超出了你們預期的狀況。它不是一般我們所熟悉的這些廠房，同時它燃燒出來的氫氟酸是有毒的，甚至於其他有毒性的一些物質，周邊的居民其實都相當擔心。當天還有很多人說，當天的空氣、水，他們都擔心是有問題的。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才所指責的空氣品質監測，我們都有設置空氣品質監測站，您剛才所說有害空氣污染物的部分，到目前為止我們都沒有發現有空污的問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我知道在廠內一度有監測到，但是我要講的是，即使是在周邊也都是這種的，它的擴散效應等等。我的意思是那個只是一個最低、最低的標準啦！這種東西放在離居民這麼近這件事情，本身就有高度的爭議，我還是要請部長思考，不要完全地相信跟迷失在所謂的監測站。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：監測不是24小時監測，監測也不是所有周邊的點全部監測，監測只是拿出來測一下。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會精進……"],["賴委員瑞隆：它永遠帶有很多的不確定性在，對我來說，這件事情就是不……你想啦！如果是在臺北市，哪一個區裡面願意接受這樣的東西？臺北市任何一個區，你告訴我願意接受這樣的東西嗎？如果不行的話，關於臨海工業區，更要重新調整你們的標準。它這裡面會產生有毒的氣體，即使是會產生有毒氣體的風險，沒有監測到不代表沒有發生，一度在廠內有監測到，監測了幾次？它不是24小時在監測，不是隨時在監測。部長，真的要將心比心，站在周邊居民的角度來思考，換作這個如果是在中正區，有人有辦法接受這樣的事情嗎？隔壁有辦法接受這樣的一個廠房嗎？距離幾百公尺有辦法接受這樣的廠房嗎？所以我講的是請經濟部要重新調整你們的標準，要更嚴格地去檢視蓋進來的廠房，標準同時也要提升它的安全性。這一次我看來是一堆的問題，希望部長救災完畢之後，花一點點時間瞭解這個案子，好不好？謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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董事長那個"},{"start":200.455,"end":216.814,"text":"委員那個工作的部分我會回答您啦但這一題我真的要我覺得國會議員都是社會賢達大家大概都知道說我們有很多的工作事實上需要經費去推動喔那個這個照片您傳的這個照片我們"},{"start":217.964,"end":233.124,"text":"也看到它附近其實因為土石流的關係有另外一根電桿已經被拖倒了所以現在立道是停電的狀況那我們台電驅逐的同仁已經上去搶修了我們都第一時間看到了實際的情形那至於您提到的部分"},{"start":236.157,"end":256.089,"text":"我覺得台電公司是國家的公司雖然現在是民主金融部長執政那是民主金融部長在領導這個公司但我還是希望就是說是不是國會議員能夠了解一件事就是台電自它成立以來到現在一直都是國家的公司就我的同仁其實就是國家的僱員"},{"start":263.038,"end":288.851,"text":"其實那個我要這樣講就是說他真的需要一些他需要支持我們也不是其實真的沒有任何的沒有任何想要勤而的意思坦白講台電也沒有說什麼我們這一段時間都在認真的救災但當然這個時候預算被刪掉對我們來講心情上面會有一些影響我們本來覺得有看到曙光"},{"start":289.864,"end":311.038,"text":"就在這個之前其實曾經有些新聞報導包括在野黨的黨主席提出說是不是可以給我們一千億我們也聽到一些工總或商總的理事長打電話來跟我們講說他們有在幫忙協調希望能夠撥補這個一千億我們本來覺得是已經有曙光了但是後來結果"},{"start":312.554,"end":321.709,"text":"不是那麼樣的理想但不過我還是要跟委員還有主席所有在場的委員保證就是台電公司還是會堅守我們自己的崗位做好我們工作"},{"start":322.731,"end":350.074,"text":"那個謝謝曾董事長我們今天來談這個災後復原或者是災後的補助沒有電你很多東西沒有辦法運行剛剛農業部部長的報導養殖漁業受創嚴重我們所有的農業災損現在今天才7月底農業的災損天然災害的救助金的今年的預算是編列了36億多嘛對不對"},{"start":352.389,"end":369.963,"text":"今年現在是39億嗎你單單一個丹納斯颱風已經用掉了32億了那你沒有電你的這個農漁業全部就停擺工商業也全部停擺我們來談這些災後的報告你最基本的東西沒有辦法給嘛"},{"start":374.926,"end":396.082,"text":"每個人都來講 我這個農業部起來要補助多少錢災損加補助 增加額度 增加金額如果能夠把電網的韌性往前先做好如果能夠給台電更多的資源有一些東西是可以防範於未然嘛不是這樣嗎好"},{"start":399.425,"end":413.862,"text":"來 董事長我想請您就回座我們之前一直在講電網的韌性我不知道未來還有多少颱風會來未來還有多少台電的人員必須冒死冒雨冒風去搶救"},{"start":415.183,"end":430.777,"text":"可是我能不能請坐在主席台上的主席請國民黨的委員 請藍白的委員如果你換一個角度想掛在電線桿上的如果是你的家人你們自己內心作何感想台上的主席你可能未來要選縣長如果當你當縣長的時候你要如何去處理這些風災水災所造成的影響"},{"start":443.427,"end":448.551,"text":"不是你們嘻嘻哈哈在台上在立法院隨便舉個牌隨便就否決掉了政治不是這樣搞的啊你今天排了這樣的一個專案報告我相信在座的部會首長根本在這裡坐立難安啊因為台東在下大雨大陸在攤房 在土石流 在停電"},{"start":466.636,"end":486.04,"text":"跟在座哪一位部長沒有關係跟在座哪一個單位沒有關係他們現在在坐在這裡聽其實都一直在掌握訊息我相信交通部一定最擔心啊你那個海端廂對外的聯外道路如果中斷該怎麼處理電力如果中斷該怎麼處理該怎麼搶修農業部當然可以等雨過以後再來統計農業災損的問題農業部你現在剩下多少錢"},{"start":496.974,"end":501.998,"text":"你一個丹納斯就用掉了你大概十分之八的預算了你剩下多少錢你未來還可以做多少事你還可以補助給農民多少你還可以救助給農民多少我助理今天幫我準備了一大堆的資料我都不知道要怎麼問我看到你們我眼淚都快掉下來了我看到國民黨的立委在這裡為非作歹我眼淚都快掉下來了"},{"start":525.506,"end":533.548,"text":"我要告訴你們大罷免不是為了仇恨大罷免是為了愛台灣啊不讓你們繼續為非作歹啊如果你們持續這種態度在立法院處理每一個事務你根本不要叫大家來報告嘛報告又有什麼用呢你們都知道問題在哪裡你們都知道中央部會要怎麼協助可是在表決的時候你們表現的是什麼樣的態度"},{"start":557.008,"end":559.349,"text":"在表決的時候你有想過你的鄉親嗎你有想過你的市民朋友嗎你有想過那些農民嗎你有想過住在那個地方的災民嗎沒有我相信你們沒有我每次都說拿出你的良心來吧從政要有良心啊不是你今天請各位來這裡做報告就可以解決的事情啊"},{"start":588.467,"end":590.854,"text":"現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":195,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時27分）謝謝主席。在我請各部會上來之前，我想請大家先看一下，這個是剛剛我們收到最新的一個照片。這個地方是在臺東縣海端鄉的下馬嘉寶隧道，因為豪大雨的關係現在坍方，所以我剛剛看到交通部次長在這裡，你們應該也有接到相關的通報嘛，對不對？臺東現在正在受豪大雨，也開始有一些停電的情形產生，利稻已經開始停電。我要說的就是最近因為風災不斷、水災不斷，剛剛經濟部部長跟農業部部長花了將近30分鐘的時間來報告，因為丹娜絲颱風所造成的這一些影響，我必須請台電的董事長上來。"],["主席：曾董事長。"],["邱委員議瑩：我想在這整個風災裡面，受創最嚴重的臺南跟嘉義，我必須在這裡利用立法院質詢的時間，請台電的董事長上來，我想跟台電的員工致上最深、最深的謝意跟敬意！去年高雄遭遇風災的時候，我看到台電的員工不眠不休地搶救大寮、林園、前鎮、小港等等的這些電桿倒塌。今年一樣，場景換到了臺南跟嘉義，那個損害更加地嚴重。可是國民黨的委員說，你們台電在情勒，他說不需要補助給你們1,000億，撥補的預算直接在立法院就否決掉了。曾董事長，我想請教一下，你領導一個部隊在作戰、領導一個部隊在搶修，現在利稻在停電、臺東在停電，很有可能，我不知道接下來的兩、三天還會不會有其他的地方停電，你如何帶領你這些部隊持續來進行搶修？你可以告訴我你的心情嗎？我們一直在講電網的韌性要加強，台電1,000億的撥補在前幾天就被砍掉了，我很想聽聽你的想法、你的感受，這個國家到底怎麼了、這個國會怎麼了？每一個人都在用電，又不給漲電價、又不給撥補，又要叫台電立刻要修復、立刻要復電，我真的很想聽聽，董事長你到底內心的想法是什麼？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，工作的部分我會回答您，但這一題……我覺得國會議員都是社會賢達，大家大概都知道我們有很多的工作事實上需要經費去推動。您傳的這個照片，我們也看到了，它附近因為土石流的關係，有另外一根電桿已經被拖倒了，所以現在利稻是停電的狀況，我們台電區處的同仁已經上去搶修了，我們第一時間都看到了實際的情形。至於您提到的部分，我覺得台電公司是國家的公司，雖然現在是民主進步黨執政，是民主進步黨在領導這個公司，但我還是希望國會議員能夠了解一件事，台電自成立以來到現在一直都是國家的公司，我的同仁其實就是國家的雇員。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實……"],["曾董事長文生：我要這樣講，它真的需要一些支持，我們真的沒有任何想要情勒的意思，坦白講，台電也沒有說什麼，我們這一段時間都在認真地救災，但當然這個時候預算被刪掉，對我們來講，心情上面會有一些影響，我們本來覺得有看到曙光，在這個之前，曾經有些新聞報導，包括在野黨的黨主席提出說是不是可以給我們1,000億，我們也聽到一些工總或商總的理事長打電話來跟我們講說，他們有在幫忙協調，希望能夠撥補這個1,000億，我們本來覺得已經有曙光了，但是後來結果不是那麼理想，不過，我還是要跟委員、主席、所有在場的委員保證，台電公司還是會堅守我們自己的崗位，做好我們的工作。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝曾董事長，我們今天來談災後復原，或者是災後的補助，沒有電，你很多東西沒有辦法運行。剛剛農業部部長的報告，養殖漁業受創嚴重，我們所有的農業災損，今天才7月底，農業的災損，天然災害救助金今年的預算是編列了三十六億多，對不對？是39億嗎？單單一個丹娜絲颱風已經用掉了32億了，沒有電的話，農漁業全部就停擺、工商業也全部停擺。我們來談這些災後的報告，你最基本的東西沒有辦法給嘛！每個人都來講農業部要補助多少錢，災損加補助增加額度、增加金額。如果能夠把電網的韌性先做好，如果能夠給台電更多的資源，有一些東西是可以防患於未然，不是這樣嗎？董事長，我想請您回座。","我們之前一直在講電網的韌性，我不知道未來還有多少颱風會來，未來還有多少台電的人員必須冒死、冒雨、冒風去搶救，可是我能不能請坐在主席臺上的主席，請國民黨的委員、請藍白的委員，如果你換一個角度想，掛在電線桿上的如果是你的家人，你們自己內心作何感想？臺上的主席，你可能未來要選縣長，如果你當縣長的時候，你要如何去處理這些風災、水災所造成的影響？不是你們嘻嘻哈哈，在臺上、在立法院隨便舉個牌，隨便就否決掉了。政治不是這樣搞的！你今天排了這樣的一個專案報告，我相信在座的部會首長根本在這裡坐立難安，因為臺東在下大雨，道路在坍方、在土石流、在停電，跟在座哪一位部長沒有關係、跟在座哪一個單位沒有關係？他們現在坐在這裡聽，其實都一直在掌握訊息，我相信交通部一定最擔心，海端鄉對外的聯外道路如果中斷，該怎麼處理？電力如果中斷，該怎麼處理、該怎麼搶修？農業部當然可以等雨過以後再來統計農業災損的問題，農業部你現在剩下多少錢？你一個丹娜絲就用掉大概十分之八的預算了，你剩下多少錢、未來還可以做多少事、還可以補助給農民多少、還可以救助給農民多少？","我的助理今天幫我準備了一大堆的資料，我都不知道要怎麼問，我看到你們，我眼淚都快掉下來了；我看到國民黨的立委在這裡為非作歹，我眼淚都快掉下來了。我要告訴你們，大罷免不是為了仇恨，大罷免是為了愛臺灣，不讓你們繼續為非作歹，如果你們持續這種態度在立法院處理每一個事務，你根本不要叫大家來報告，報告有什麼用呢？你們都知道問題在哪裡，你們都知道中央部會要怎麼協助，可是在表決的時候，你們表現的是什麼樣的態度？在表決的時候，你有想過你的鄉親嗎？有想過你的市民朋友嗎？有想過那些農民嗎？你有想過住在那個地方的災民嗎？沒有，我相信你們沒有，我每次都說拿出你的良心來吧，從政要有良心，不是你今天請各部會來這裡做報告就可以解決的事情。"],["主席：請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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邀請經濟部部長國家發展委員會主任委員交通部首長及國家科學及技術委員會首長及因應高齡化社會我國智慧公共運具發展及目標進行報告並被質詢經濟部部長郭智慧及交通部常務次長林國賢報告後委員陳廷飛等14人提出質詢"},{"start":1872.672,"end":1893.638,"text":"均由經濟部部長郭志威等及其答覆決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外區域均與發言完畢巡達結束委員謝榮介、邱振軍、張家俊、徐欣盈、邱盈盈及翁曉琳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會114年6月25日星期三報事項"},{"start":1895.658,"end":1919.075,"text":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員、經濟部部長、農業部部長及中央銀行首長就因應國際經貿情勢變化如何協助我國產業面對台幣匯率及國際能源價格巨變進行報告並被質詢國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜清、經濟部部長郭志輝、農業部政務次長胡宗一及中銀行副總裁嚴忠大報告後委員鄭振淺等16人提出質詢"},{"start":1919.875,"end":1920.055,"text":"繼續進行報告事項請宣讀"},{"start":1944.192,"end":1952.061,"text":"邀請經濟部部長 農業部部長 內政部首長及交通部首長就丹娜斯颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復情形進行報告並被質詢 宣讀完畢現在請經濟部郭志輝部長報告"},{"start":1974.042,"end":2003.6,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早今天承蒙贵委员会的邀请就丹纳斯台风及0708豪雨灾损及复原情形进行专案报告这就涉及本部业务部分提出报告如下进行各位委员不吝示教丹纳斯台风及0708豪雨灾损情形依积淹水"},{"start":2004.793,"end":2028.149,"text":"當然是颱風期間全台淹水災點共計210處於7月7日中午均已退水主要淹水縣市為台南市68處台中市55處嘉義縣36處與高雄市32處災點多位於道路局部地方地區及寒凍"},{"start":2030.29,"end":2035.841,"text":"80%在一至三小时内退水所以灾点在当日中午前均已退水"},{"start":2037.368,"end":2059.097,"text":"應變期間本部水利署共計支援12台大型移動式抽水機包含南投、彰化、雲林、台南、屏東、花蓮等地區其後受丹納斯颱風、殘雨水氣、低壓帶及西南風影響7月8日時時中部地區又出現強降雨"},{"start":2060.117,"end":2087.851,"text":"其中彰化縣雨量高達153毫米前台淹水災點共計97處主要淹水縣市為彰化縣76處雲林縣10處嘉義縣市10處50%在1至3小時內完成退水而所有災點在當日傍晚均已退水應變期間本部水利署支援彰化6台雲林3台大型移動式抽水機"},{"start":2089.167,"end":2112.186,"text":"前端基礎建設以花灰效果減少淹水面積加快退水當然是颱風造成淹水面積達48公頃3小時退水達80%優於過去同等級102年的康瑞颱風2光電當然是颱風造成部分光電災損情形如下受本次颱風影響統計約60MW災損"},{"start":2118.574,"end":2144.282,"text":"僅佔總設置量0.4%令太陽能光電於風災前太陽能光電發電量為67.75百萬度相較於風災後發電量66.2百萬度差距甚小其中較具規模之災損為嘉義縣四岸水面型的場岸場新溫新莊貴社荷包宇三有關產業園區及科技"},{"start":2147.253,"end":2151.917,"text":"產業園區產業園區及科技園區共計13處園區96家廠商提報災損目前預估損失金額為6.53億是電力當然是颱風造成電力損害範圍廣泛本次全國城停電戶"},{"start":2168.939,"end":2193.955,"text":"總計一百萬九千兩百三十八戶因停電戶分佈廣域且零散並受限於道路窄小大型搶救機器車輛進出困難導致台電搶修困難颱風期限電感導斷及流失約三千四百九十九支電線斷線六千九百六十五條"},{"start":2195.746,"end":2204.873,"text":"開關及被壓器696具鐵塔倒塌三座水泥桿傾倒兩座部分損害三座"},{"start":2207.708,"end":2224.98,"text":"包含支持部的傾斜、恆丹、愛子鐵器的受損等等全面復電工程急劇挑戰台電第一線人員在監控環境下投入搶修工作由於災損設備數量龐大範圍分散從耗耗時耗力"},{"start":2231.553,"end":2239.938,"text":"五自來水全台呈停水數73487戶主要為嘉義地區呈停水10729戶台南地區呈停水13149戶高雄地區呈停水49367戶南嶼呈停水242戶二報告災損情形回復的狀況"},{"start":2258.017,"end":2281.469,"text":"一 積淹水當當是颱風造成的積淹水最嚴重的地區為台南七谷西寮地區因當當是颱風入境由南往北產生了長浪並受滿潮影響大潮巨浪直接灌入大寮排水越過提案造成的淹水後續將協助台南市政府在七谷瀉湖外"},{"start":2282.678,"end":2311.681,"text":"沙洲平沽先以沙場帶防護避免海浪直接侵襲大寮排水部分將沿域依規劃設置出口防潮紮門同時西寮、城內以及大潭地區將進行沖水設備的更新提升整體排水效能增加地區的防洪韌性0708豪雨造成的積淹水較嚴重地域髒化鹿港地區"},{"start":2313.055,"end":2336.409,"text":"因7月8日第一壓帶加上西南風水氣引發的短延時強降雨時雨量每小時超過150毫米超過保護標準後續將由彰化縣政府評估辦理鹿港溪下游出口抽水站更新改善並檢討擴大抽排量抽排的量能加速退水"},{"start":2339.349,"end":2364.09,"text":"及持續推動入港溪排水淨流分擔措施檢討下水道系統的能力本部屆時將與協助增加地區防洪的韌性減少淹水的損失而光電當它是颱風造成部分光電災損中目前災損較小的光電暗場皆已清理完畢"},{"start":2365.464,"end":2387.862,"text":"至於災損較大的大型光電暗場也與廠區外均已清除完畢廠區內正由業者積極地進行清理作業三、產業園區、科技產業園區本部園管局於第一時間7月7日派源至受創最嚴重的西寧產業園區勘災"},{"start":2390.615,"end":2414.117,"text":"自7月8日起,结合本部马上办中心及产业竞争力辅导中心资源与服务能量,针对园区受损厂商进行访试,及时提供政府可协助的措施及行政资源。协助事项包含灾损认定、厂房修缮、地下室积水排除及废弃物清除等事项。"},{"start":2416.344,"end":2424.094,"text":"園區內公用設施恢復部分已由本部園管局進行復原重建與災後環境整理"},{"start":2427.284,"end":2433.705,"text":"全台停電戶100萬9238戶台電公司已於7月19日21時全部復電完成本市丹阿斯颱風台電動員調派跨區支援搶修人力299班1801人前往支援"},{"start":2448.61,"end":2451.333,"text":"總累計365班2,308人共出動人力39,843人次自來水全水停水戶73,487戶開水公司已於7月7日14時全部覆水"},{"start":2468.581,"end":2491.718,"text":"另因颱風過後陸續接貨用戶反映部分地區無水經查七谷西寮村後壁區斜甲等地區因停電導致用戶自設間接加壓設備無法啟動抽水至頂樓蓄水設備在重力流下所致並非自來水未送達用戶"},{"start":2493.263,"end":2508.6,"text":"災害期間,台水公司與地方政府聯繫,配合加派水車及設置臨時取水站因應以維持供水穩定。3.災害救協助事項"},{"start":2523.047,"end":2532.237,"text":"2.提供企业复工贷款,包括中小企业灾害复旧贷款以及企业小投家贷款,贷款额度无限制。"},{"start":2533.682,"end":2556.215,"text":"這個部分由承貸金融機構來評估貸款的利率從低2.22%信用保證至少9.5成令貸款額度100萬元以內一律10成保證且免收保證所需費以上均受理申請中"},{"start":2557.543,"end":2581.214,"text":"三 提供機器設備調校補助對於單單是颱風受災製造業者補助業者災後重建時機器的修復、校正等以盡速恢復產能每家補助上限新台幣20萬元四 電費的扣減針對停電超過一小時的住宅、商家等依停電時間提供電費的扣減"},{"start":2585.948,"end":2593.364,"text":"5.水費扣減針對停水超過24小時的用戶當月基本費與停水日數比例扣減"},{"start":2595.052,"end":2618.687,"text":"6.台南土地租金减免,依农业部公告之农业天然灾害现金救助及低利贷款地区之土地成租户,向所在地区乡镇区公所提报灾损证明并提供台南公司土地辖管单位,台南公司将依作物受害程度给予租金的减免。"},{"start":2621.097,"end":2634.583,"text":"當然是颱風120年來首次從嘉義登陸一次颱風且最高震風等級高達17級震風造成台南嘉義地區多根電桿倒塌以及電線斷裂"},{"start":2636.735,"end":2654.209,"text":"本部及台電公司後續亦檢討將於短期先加強空曠迎風面的電感對地直線並感電感機裝及調整桿距等措施,另於迎風線路中增加一級電感。"},{"start":2656.684,"end":2684.277,"text":"中长期评估环境许可下办理陷入地下化工程,并滚动检讨办理成效,配合配电系统陷入防灾韧性。至于豪雨的部分,本部予以地方政府合作检讨各项排水设施的改善,增加地区防洪的韧性,减少淹水的损失。以上报告,敬祝委员身体健康,注视顺利。"},{"start":2685.984,"end":2697.037,"text":"好 謝謝現在請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤好 沒有錯誤那議事錄確定現在請農業部陳暨俊部長報告陳暨俊"},{"start":2710.574,"end":2737.2,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早安那今天很榮幸列席我們大院經濟委員會第18次的權力委員會議進行有關於丹納斯颱風及0708大豪雨災後農業救助與輔導的措施的專案報告那以下僅就這次災害的一些過程跟相關的這些救助跟補助的作為向各位報告"},{"start":2738.2,"end":2766.925,"text":"這次的颱風當然是颱風是0706從嘉義縣登陸那登陸的時候它所帶來的這些陣風有高達14到17級那同一時間在0708的時候又發生了這些大豪雨那大豪雨最主要是以彰化地區為主那兩三日的累積雨量有甚至有達到400到500毫米所以算是一個過往比較少發生的這種複合型的一個災害"},{"start":2767.685,"end":2771.988,"text":"那經過我們統計當然是颱風跟0708到昨天下午5點的一個統計災害損失已經達到32.5億那其中是以台南市14.6億為最高那其次為嘉義的7.3億雲林的5.07億彰化的2.7億那屏東大概是1.2億高雄大概是1億"},{"start":2796.026,"end":2814.532,"text":"也是一二那這幾個縣市是比較嚴重的那整個摘損裡面如果我們把它分為農林榆木的話農糧的損失最主要是以香蕉文旦番子瘤竹筍跟柳橙為主那蓄產的損失最主要是雞隻的死亡然後淹水的一個死亡那"},{"start":2815.632,"end":2832.54,"text":"其次是豬跟鴨、鵝等那漁產的部分最主要是在牡蠣及虱目魚那另外一部分是有關於停電所造成的這些養殖漁業所造成損失零產的部分最主要是在森林的副產物的阻損的部分"},{"start":2833.3,"end":2860.594,"text":"那另外還有一個區塊因為這次的颱風所帶來的這些強風造成很多民間設施的損失那這個設施的損失包括農業的設施那包括整個蔬菜育苗跟花卉栽培以及蘭花栽培等大型的這些水從小型的水瓶往事一直到塑膠布往事一直到強固型的這些溫室都受到一些影響"},{"start":2861.354,"end":2879.003,"text":"那續行的設施最主要是屋頂被風吹垮那漁業的設施最主要是漁船的一個損毀那有關於天然災害的一個救助的情形那農業部為了及時能夠迅速恢復生產從丹納斯颱風在7月7號離台以後"},{"start":2882.805,"end":2904.462,"text":"我們第一時間就決定用主動公告的方式來公告我們救災的一個品項因為過往的一個救助都是要地方政府提報然後經過四方會刊所照那時間會拖到香港市場至少要一個禮拜以上那這次我們採用主動公告的方式然後透過專家會議來決定所以"},{"start":2906.844,"end":2925.871,"text":"我們在最短的時間內獲得一些希望說能夠獲得農民能夠及時的獲得一些協助那到目前統計大概現在目前已經公告了10個縣市總共有844項的作為受到天然災害影響所可以申請現金救助的"},{"start":2926.591,"end":2945.626,"text":"那在這個整個公告的項目裡面我們同時考量了它的風速然後它的一個普遍性所以我們同時也公告了一些可以免限開的作物這些免限開的作物包括文旦、酪梨、硬質玉米、青稞玉米、食用玉米這種很高精類的作物同時"},{"start":2947.427,"end":2972.32,"text":"也擴及了有關於長時間停電的這些養殖餘溫我們公告列為免限竿的品項那這些免限竿的品項你只要能夠舉證是有種植或客觀養殖的適時的證明文件那公所就可以去免限竿直接去處理那這樣也可以減少公所的這些人力的一個應用那同樣為確保災區農民"},{"start":2974.861,"end":2992.322,"text":"更多的農民有時間來申報那原來的公告的申報的期間是10天那我們已經針對台南市嘉義縣跟嘉義市的救災的受理期限延長了5個工作天那我在這邊也跟所有的委員報告這個延長的部分"},{"start":2992.942,"end":3013.696,"text":"我們都有經過跟每個縣市確認那部分的縣市他覺得說不需要延長那我們就尊重那有需要延長的話我們就會延長五個工作日但是這個部分我們還是會持續的做滾動的一個檢討如果有需要延長的時候農業部這邊一定會同意做適度的延長"},{"start":3014.946,"end":3043.416,"text":"那在整個現金做出以外在這一次我們也針對天然災害的一個低利貸款提供了一個比較優惠的方案在過去的低利貸款大概是免息沒有就是低利率是1.415然後免息期限是半年那這一次我們特別提供了零利率的貸款的優惠然後免息的時間從半年展延成一年"},{"start":3044.036,"end":3072.72,"text":"那除了這個天然災害救助的品項以外我們同時也針對品項的貸款額度的提高那針對以前曾經有貸款的這些其他的專案貸款補助的部分我們也針對這個部分提供了兩年的一個期限不管你是做匡款或者是整個貸款的延長都可以兩年而這些所有貸款的作業金融的"},{"start":3073.32,"end":3102.327,"text":"原來貸款的金融機構可以不用主案來報我們農業部核准那我們也希望說用透過這樣的方式來簡化我們的行政流程那我要在這邊也跟所有的委員報告過去我們的天災都是透過天然災害救助辦法去提供我們的現金的一個救助那因為這次颱風它比較特殊而且影響比較城市比較廣所以我們這次採用的是救助加補助"},{"start":3103.307,"end":3126.916,"text":"救助加補助所以除了現金救助以外我們也開列了非常多的這些專案的一個補助那這些專案補助第一個包括設施的一個補助那過往設施我們農民的補助的話是五成我們把它提高到八成那除了溫室的補助以外溫室內的相關的循環系統還有水養液的供應系統我們也納入補助的範圍"},{"start":3127.876,"end":3146.943,"text":"那同時我們在這次也考量到我們有非常多的農企業是從事一級生產的農企業那這些農企業過往都是跟農民是一個夥伴關係所以我們這次也特別將農企業只要是從事一級生產的這些農企業我們也納入補助的範圍"},{"start":3148.362,"end":3163.823,"text":"那所以現在目前開放的是蘭花的部分那如果後續有需要的話我們也會逐步開只要他是從事一級生產的時候我們都會來處理那相關的這些補助我們就是有五成的50%的一個補助那此外"},{"start":3164.865,"end":3182.686,"text":"因為在雲林、在彰化有一些稻穀它並沒有完全收穫所以我們這一次也啟動了災害股的一個收穫如果農民他在收割的時候這些稻穀沒有辦法賣出去的時候那我們就全數的一個收購這個全數的收購就是"},{"start":3184.668,"end":3202.098,"text":"除了原來供糧的6200公斤以外我們用平均產量加兩成的方式做數量的一個收購來確保我們農民不會受到這些損失同時我們還有另一方面的農業保險水稻農業收入保險也可以來支撐"},{"start":3204.279,"end":3228.497,"text":"這次的颱風我們也發現了非常多的公糧倉庫的屋頂受損那根據我們統計大概有86棟的公糧倉庫受損那這個部分我想我們也啟動了相關的一個補助的範圍那受損的部分我們大概補助了7成那民營的這些業者我們大概補助了5成那在漁業的部分我們的專案補助大概分為幾個部分第一個部分就是"},{"start":3229.758,"end":3250.688,"text":"當時在停電的時候那第一時間我們啟動了相關的這些發電機還有油料還有租金的這些補貼那這個補貼我們最長達到七天一天是一萬塊希望說他在停電的時候能夠利用發電機來繼續維持電力但是很可惜的這是因為"},{"start":3251.528,"end":3269.84,"text":"停電的一個時間比較長電力的修復比較困難那後續我們也開了全部開了他的天然災害公告然後免限刊那另外我們也針對養殖設備的補助包括增揚機發電機飼料等共通性的設施的補助到八成那在"},{"start":3270.956,"end":3298.175,"text":"在進來漁業的漁船的部分那最主要是漁閥的後面所掛的主腹肌的一個補助那這次颱風因為把很多漁閥吹翻了然後堆疊在一起那很多這種主腹肌也受損了所以我們也提供了相關的這些主腹肌八成的一個補助那同時在養殖漁業已經有一些廢死魚已經浮現的時候那必須及時的清除以免造成環境的一個公共衛生的一個污染"},{"start":3298.695,"end":3313.852,"text":"那同時我們也跟地方政府跟環境部合作來協助整個的一個廢死魚的這些清除那在畜牧部分大概分為兩個部分第一個部分就是整個畜牧設施的補助"},{"start":3314.372,"end":3328.239,"text":"那設置的補助包括情緒設、堆肥設等也是提高到八成那同樣的是發電機的部分針對畜牧場的發電機我們提供了五成的一個補助那最主要這些專案的補助是希望說"},{"start":3330.031,"end":3351.779,"text":"能夠迅速的讓農民能夠復健然後復耕能夠用最快的一個速度來復耕那我想這次災害造成嚴重的損失農業部已啟動了整個農業的技術服務團來整合我們所屬的試驗改良商所還有一些學研單位希望在災後的時候能夠迅速的協助農民的復耕"},{"start":3352.279,"end":3379.114,"text":"同時因為災害可能帶來的這些疫病重害的一個發生我們也希望都透過輔導團能夠讓這些疫病重害能夠有效的得以控制那各項的這些災害有些經費不足的地方我想我們都會專案跟行政院來申請這些經費來迅速的來協助來提供我們的災民那以上就針對這次的颱風跟大好雨的"},{"start":3379.836,"end":3382.349,"text":"災情做相關的作為做以上的報告謝謝"},{"start":3384.667,"end":3385.387,"text":"好,谢谢"},{"start":3424.251,"end":3439.458,"text":"謝謝主席在我請各部會上來之前我想請大家先看一下這個是剛剛我們收到最新的一個照片這個地方是在台東縣海端鄉的夏卯家寶隧道"},{"start":3440.609,"end":3461.402,"text":"因為豪大雨的關係現在坍方所以我剛剛看到交通部次長在這裡應該你們也有接到相關的通報嘛對不對那台東現在正在受豪大雨也開始有一些停電的情形產生 力道已經開始停電我要說的就是說"},{"start":3463.208,"end":3482.513,"text":"最近因為風災不斷水災不斷那剛剛部長經濟部部長跟農業部部長花了將近30分鐘的時間來報告因為丹納斯颱風所造成的這些影響我必須請台電的董事長上來我想在這整個風災裡面受創最嚴重的台南跟嘉義"},{"start":3492.844,"end":3506.105,"text":"我必須在這裡利用立法院質詢的時間請台電的董事長上來我想跟台電的員工致上最深最深的謝意跟敬意喔"},{"start":3511.294,"end":3530.741,"text":"去年高雄遭遇風災的時候我看到台電的員工不眠不休的搶救大寮 林園等等 前鎮 小港等等的這些電感倒塌今年一樣那個場景換到了台南跟嘉義那個損害更加的嚴重可是國民黨的委員說你們台電在勤勒他說不需要補助給你們1000億"},{"start":3541.22,"end":3544.162,"text":"報補的預算直接在立法院就否決掉了曾董事長我想請教一下你領導一個部隊在作戰 領導一個部隊在搶修現在立道在停電 台東在停電很有可能我不知道未來接下來的兩三天還會不會有其他的地方停電你如何帶領你這些部隊持續來進行搶修你可以告訴我你的心情嗎"},{"start":3570.814,"end":3574.557,"text":"我們一直在講電網的韌性要加強台電一千億的撥補就在前幾天就被砍掉了我很想聽聽你的想法你的感受到底這個國家怎麼了這個國會怎麼了"},{"start":3591.257,"end":3605.586,"text":"每一個人都要用電又不給漲電價又不給撥補然後又要叫台電立刻要修復立刻就要復電我真的很想聽聽董事長你到底內心的想法是什麼來 董事長那個那個工作的部分我會回答您啦但這一題我真的要"},{"start":3621.751,"end":3648.551,"text":"我覺得國會議員都是社會賢達大家大概都知道說我們有很多的工作事實上需要經費去推動那個這個照片您傳的這個照片我們也看到它附近其實因為土石流的關係有另外一根電桿已經被拖倒了所以現在立道是停電的狀況那我們台電驅逐的同仁已經上去搶修了我們都第一時間看到了實際的情形那至於您提到的部分"},{"start":3651.584,"end":3670.998,"text":"我覺得台電公司是國家的公司雖然現在是民主金融部長執政那是民主金融部長在領導這個公司但我還是希望就是說是不是國會議員能夠了解一件事就是台電自它成立以來到現在一直都是國家的公司就我的同仁其實就是國家的僱員"},{"start":3678.464,"end":3704.272,"text":"其實那個我要這樣講就是說他真的需要一些他需要支持我們也不是其實真的沒有任何的沒有任何想要勤而的意思坦白講台電也沒有說什麼我們這一段時間都在認真的救災但當然這個時候預算被刪掉對我們來講心情上面會有一些影響我們本來覺得有看到曙光"},{"start":3705.29,"end":3726.462,"text":"就在這個之前其實曾經有些新聞報導包括在野黨的黨主席提出說是不是可以給我們一千億我們也聽到一些工總或商總的理事長打電話來跟我們講說他們有在幫忙協調希望能夠撥補這個一千億我們本來覺得是已經有曙光了但是後來結果"},{"start":3727.981,"end":3745.777,"text":"不是那麼樣的理想但不過我還是要跟委員還有主席所有在場的委員保證就是台電公司還是會堅守我們自己的崗位做好我們工作那個謝謝曾董事長我們今天來談這個災後復原或者是災後的補助"},{"start":3746.721,"end":3769.586,"text":"沒有電你很多東西沒有辦法運行剛剛農業部部長的報導養殖漁業受創嚴重我們所有的農業災損現在今天才7月底農業的災損天然災害的救助金的今年的預算是編列了36億多嘛對不對今年現在是39億嗎你單單一個丹納斯颱風已經用掉了32億了"},{"start":3775.342,"end":3781.527,"text":"那你沒有電 你的這個農漁業全部就停擺工商業也全部停擺我們來談這些災後的報告你最基本的東西沒有辦法給嘛每個人都來講 我這個農業部起來要補助多少錢災損加補助 增加額度 增加金額"},{"start":3799.83,"end":3811.55,"text":"如果能夠把電網的韌性往前先做好如果能夠給台電更多的資源有一些東西是可以防範於未然嗎不是這樣嗎好"},{"start":3814.851,"end":3829.288,"text":"來 董事長我想請您就回座我們之前一直在講電網的韌性我不知道未來還有多少颱風會來未來還有多少台電的人員必須冒死冒雨冒風去搶救"},{"start":3830.589,"end":3846.412,"text":"可是我能不能請坐在主席台上的主席請國民黨的委員 請藍白的委員如果你換一個角度想掛在電線桿上的如果是你的家人你們自己內心作何感想台上的主席你可能未來要選縣長如果當你當縣長的時候你要如何去處理這些風災水災所造成的影響"},{"start":3858.837,"end":3864.219,"text":"不是你們嘻嘻哈哈在台上在立法院隨便舉個牌隨便就否決掉了政治不是這樣搞的啊你今天排了這樣的一個專案報告我相信在座的部會首長根本在這裡坐立難安啊因為台東在下大雨道路在攤房 在土石流 在停電"},{"start":3882.062,"end":3901.469,"text":"跟在座哪一位部長沒有關係跟在座哪一個單位沒有關係他們現在在坐在這裡聽其實都一直在掌握訊息我相信交通部一定最擔心啊你那個海端廂對外的聯外道路如果中斷該怎麼處理電力如果中斷該怎麼處理該怎麼搶修農業部當然可以等雨過以後再來統計農業災損的問題農業部你現在剩下多少錢"},{"start":3912.401,"end":3925.772,"text":"你一個丹納斯就用掉了你大概十分之八的預算了你剩下多少錢你未來還可以做多少事你還可以補助給農民多少你還可以救助給農民多少我助理今天幫我準備了一大堆的資料我都不知道要怎麼問我看到你們我眼淚都快掉下來了我看到國民黨的立委在這裡為非作歹我眼淚都快掉下來了"},{"start":3940.933,"end":3948.975,"text":"我要告訴你們大罷免不是為了仇恨大罷免是為了愛台灣啊不讓你們繼續為非作歹啊如果你們持續這種態度在立法院處理每一個事務你根本不要叫大家來報告嘛報告又有什麼用呢你們都知道問題在哪裡你們都知道中央部會要怎麼協助可是在表決的時候你們表現的是什麼樣的態度"},{"start":3972.435,"end":3974.776,"text":"在表決的時候你有想過你的鄉親嗎你有想過你的市民朋友嗎你有想過那些農民嗎你有想過住在那個地方的災民嗎沒有我相信你們沒有我每次都說拿出你的良心來吧從政要有良心啊不是你今天請各位來這裡做報告就可以解決的事情啊"},{"start":4003.892,"end":4024.687,"text":"現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答好主席請那個陳部長郭部長跟曾董事長我先問陳部長我先問一下部長"},{"start":4029.473,"end":4054.113,"text":"我們現在這次的風災我們都要求重優、重寬、重速、重減那有沒有達到這樣的一個原則我想第一個部分就是重速的部分從過往的這些地方政府勘在這報上來這個時間我們用主動公告的方式事實上也至少節省了公告這段時間的大概從一個禮拜節省到三天之內所以這些原則都掌握了是"},{"start":4055.173,"end":4081.515,"text":"苦民所苦啦就是人民當在現在這個風災的特別是這一次的雨特別是風超出了原先的預期所以造成了相當大的一些災情我希望這個部分從寬從幽從速從簡這個原則一定要盡快而且接下來現在才七月而已還不知道還會遇到這樣我希望未來的原則都是把握這樣的原則我們一定是用同理心的角度去面對這樣因為時間很有限然後接下來我問的是經費夠不夠"},{"start":4083.106,"end":4096.304,"text":"接下來經費夠不夠我跟委員報告在天然災害救助基金在114年大概是將近38億將近39億那我要跟委員報告在這次颱風之前已經用掉了22億左右"},{"start":4098.339,"end":4123.509,"text":"換句話說年初開始有非常多的低溫已經造成的這些天然災害損失所以這一次的颱風一定是不夠的這一次已經不夠用 絕對是不夠用的那農業部不夠用那怎麼辦這些經費怎麼辦我跟委員報告過去不夠用的話我們第一時間會去跟行政院爭取二倍金但是很可惜的這一次的立法院因為我們的公務撥補到基金的預算有被刪減"},{"start":4124.469,"end":4140.342,"text":"那我在這邊特別強調一旦被刪減了以後我們就不能直接動資二倍金也就是說立法院藍白國會多數刪減掉這個預算之後變成你們也無法動資因為立法院是不讓你們動資這些錢的所以連二倍金都無法動用是這樣嗎"},{"start":4141.162,"end":4155.659,"text":"對 是根據相關的那個會計規定你只要刪了撥補的基金的經費部長那接下來呢 現在才七月而已 是颱風期有可能到九月十月都還有颱風那接下來遇到農民的災損的時候怎麼辦不過我想齁"},{"start":4156.48,"end":4184.197,"text":"就算沒有辦法去凍設二倍金那我們還是會想辦法用移緩計集或用其他的方式來爭取我這邊只要告訴我們所有的全國的農民齁不管怎麼樣天災我們農業部一定站在第一線跟他們在一起經費的部分我們一定會來想辦法所以雖然經費已經沒有了但是農業部還是會想辦法就對了對我們還是會去想辦法還是會想辦法請跟院長去找出方法出來好嗎好不好也跟立法院持續的溝通好不好"},{"start":4184.637,"end":4203.248,"text":"應該要找到一些方法解決這個問題啦就是任何一個政黨執政都遇到天災但遇到天災的時候我們都希望支持現在每個國民黨的縣市首長也請求這資源支持啊就現在經費這樣子的狀況下你要國家怎麼做是怎麼來協助這些農民每個農民都希望每個受災民都希望政府來支持結果現在這樣狀態怎麼做"},{"start":4205.097,"end":4230.587,"text":"我希望部長全力的來繼續跟院長院也跟包括國民兩黨持續溝通民進黨是全力支持的但是國民兩黨這一塊持續溝通什麼樣的有沒有什麼樣的方式能夠把這件事情能夠做一個妥善的解決好不好好接下來我請教一下那個部長跟曾董事長好嗎那個郭部長郭部長曾董事長郭部長我請教一下一樣的問題從寬從幽從速從簡經濟部門有把持這樣的原則"},{"start":4235.625,"end":4252.681,"text":"是的有照這樣在做嗎我們有照這樣在做好那經濟部的經費上面有沒有遇到問題我們現在就是就我們這個我們現在有一部分就是沒有"},{"start":4254.056,"end":4272.231,"text":"不足的部分那我想我們跟農業部也是一樣就因為這是一個災難所以我們會想辦法把這個不足的經費盡量來這個爭取跟院長這邊爭取我再回來我待會再問一下部長好了我先問一下台電董事長好了好不好董事長"},{"start":4274.059,"end":4302.924,"text":"這一次台電其實很辛苦啦 因為就像上次一樣 因為像高雄過去也遇到山坨等等那個風力之強 17級的風那個掃掉連電線桿直接把你掃斷那恐怕是很多人沒有看到是難以想像電線桿裡面還有鐵絲的 全部直接掃斷掉而且斷一整排的 因為不會只有那一支斷 其他全斷所以這一次從台南 從嘉義上來 其實造成了這個我們的電力上很大的一個重創"},{"start":4305.088,"end":4307.2,"text":"我們的整個恢復了嗎 目前狀況恢復到什麼樣的狀態"},{"start":4308.134,"end":4333.95,"text":"那個公園報告我們在禮拜六的晚上九點他就已經全部的恢復公園 都恢復了最晚的是在嘉義縣因為嘉義縣是颱風登陸的地點我還是要謝謝 其實真的還是要謝謝台電啦齁其實台電第一層的同仁每次在遇到這種風災我的選區都是在臨海區啦前陣小港 旗津都是受風面第一排每一次只要發生狀況的時候第一線都是拚了命在救的當"},{"start":4335.251,"end":4357.892,"text":"颱風正大的時候 風雨正大的時候 台電的第一線員工都在第一線用命在救 救復電然後甚至還遇到很多是高壓電 甚至遇到是鐵板被吹起來壓在高壓電上面 還是要拼命的想辦法你不處理掉那些東西就是沒辦法復電所以是拼了命的在那個 那我想要講的是台電是國家的台電 台電是人民的台電"},{"start":4359.685,"end":4388.093,"text":"上次的整個經費全部都給過唯獨就把台電的一千億整個扣下來其實坦白講我是覺得非常的難過啦就是說台電這次在支持台電就給台電更多的一些資源但是現在完全完全把那所謂的能源政策的問題全部把它丟給台電去丟包給台電去承擔我認為這個對台電是非常非常不公平台電的士氣也會受到很大的影響嘛我董事長接下來台電在這些財政上會不會有壓力"},{"start":4390.571,"end":4406.545,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為其實災損的部分我們還要統計因為將近3500根電桿那其實我問一下台電這次這樣的損失大概會多少我們現在還在統計跟委員報告出估大概多少至少損失了多少"},{"start":4407.871,"end":4426.682,"text":"應該有10億啦台電損失了10億以上應該有10億左右所以這個部分台電又要擔起來就台電已經過去來政府因為扛住了整個動漲電價然後穩定物價的這些責任現在還在加10億上去那這還不包括很多人力上面的成本吧"},{"start":4428.261,"end":4456.004,"text":"我們有全部都一起做一些統計跟估計大概是這樣但是我要跟委員報告現在是我們是損害掉的我們儘快能夠把它恢復但接下來的狀況是我相信今天一定很多委員問我們那接下來怎麼辦其實我們有在考慮接下來怎麼辦但剛才部長的報告也有提了大概的一些方向那這些其實都是需要因為電網的韌性需要投資需要經費而且其實這不是台灣的一個國家的問題"},{"start":4457.125,"end":4474.501,"text":"全世界都遇到這樣子的問題最近很多的國際媒體報導各個國家都在增加電網的投資那增加電網的投資的經費有政府的補貼也有透過電價調整來反映的一大堆這種狀況我覺得我們只要稍微檢視一下外電大概都看得到"},{"start":4475.262,"end":4497.801,"text":"特別是這些的很多的像過去以來比如像高雄很多因為防災型的關係所以我們努力的做了一些地下化甚至有些強韌的做法所以其實那個災情就會減少我認為這一次的整個沿海地區很多都必須要做更多的強化跟認定這個都需要投入更多的一些資源後續的後續改善可能真的是會比較需要時間也需要"},{"start":4499.622,"end":4527.742,"text":"更多的政府的各個單位來配合因為包含入權包含等等相關的狀況這個我們它當然資源是經費是一個非常重要的元素那我問一下台電這樣的話會不會有財務上的壓力如果遲遲的沒辦法撥補政府遲遲沒有辦法撥補其實這應該政府給的政策是政府在定的嘛那政府要求你不漲電價政府認為你們不應該希望穩定住民生的這個電價的時候不給你漲的時候那你承受的虧損那這個會不會有很大的壓力"},{"start":4529.38,"end":4534.305,"text":"跟委員報告財務一直是台電的壓力那這會不會影響到台電的軍心士氣我跟委員報告就是說我們"},{"start":4541.567,"end":4569.79,"text":"政府對於台電的一些經費上的支持是對台電的肯定跟鼓勵基本上肯定了台電事實上在整個國際燃料價格上漲的時候扛住了國內通膨的壓力我們一再說明世界上很多國家都在補貼很多國家調的因為大家都希望穩定住電價穩定性物價非常多的通貨膨脹因為一旦電價物價提升了之後造成了國家的整體損失是更大的嘛"},{"start":4570.618,"end":4599.727,"text":"所以大家都是用這樣的策略在進行在處理的就唯獨台灣遇到一個非理性的國會的多數兩黨然後然後用這樣的方式來對待台電我希望董事長繼續努力了好不好這個然後另外鼓舞台電的同仁們這個我們會全力以赴再繼續在台電爭取這邊的軍隊對台電來說台電的同仁把電網修復就是我們的責任我們一定會努力把這個工作做好我們也開始在討論後續強化的一些工作"},{"start":4600.41,"end":4612.677,"text":"就是及早來規劃 我們全力來支持同時現在給予台電同仁更多的鼓勵啦 第一線特別是第一線的同仁 辛苦的同仁用命在幫大家復電的這些同仁 給他們更多的鼓勵我們一定會轉當 會想...部長 需要請教一下部長啦齁部長 我還是要問一下齁 這個..."},{"start":4617.421,"end":4631.386,"text":"大家現在關心這個美國的這個稅率的問題董事長請坐啦 董事長請坐非的問題現在大家擔心如果8月1號快要到了如果沒有談出一個結果出來的話會不會受到影響會不會被回復到這個32這樣的狀況部長現在談的最新狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":4634.527,"end":4654.293,"text":"我們現在還在談判中嘛還在談判中 副院長到美國再次去談了嘛 是嗎這個是第四次嘛 第四次去談了嘛 對不對那現在努力的朝向在10跟20之間去做努力嘛 是嗎是在這樣的目標下嗎我們始終是希望能夠談出一個對國內有利的這樣的一個稅率"},{"start":4656.295,"end":4676.753,"text":"也做了各種的準備嘛一旦如果有任何狀況需要去支持各企業各什麼的也都做的準備我想我們的談判小組他們都有做充分的準備啦好我們期盼有好的結果那在8月1號前會談出來嗎這個結果8月1號美國他也有講嘛如果8月1號前沒有談到完整他也可以post form"},{"start":4677.333,"end":4702.295,"text":"所以還是會有那個我想這個都還在不確定的這個這麼多不確定的因素啦所以我沒有辦法跟委員報告了解談判過程當然必須要很多的機密但我希望就是一樣鼓勵我們的談判團隊持續的加油希望幫台灣爭取到最好的一些狀況也希望讓我們的產業讓我們的農漁民都的衝擊降到最小啦再來我請教一下啦那個油煉糖水加薪這一塊長期我們也在講啦部長應該都會支持吧"},{"start":4703.235,"end":4715.05,"text":"我們當然是全力支持我指的也不只這些啦包括像中鋼、螳融、台船甚至漢翔等泛工股我也鼓勵其實都要支持因為這些都很辛苦他們也都我也認為國家應該由這些企業來帶頭調性來動整個薪資上漲"},{"start":4719.335,"end":4742.137,"text":"部長同意這樣的方向嗎我們大家一起努力好一起努力最後一個問題啦上次在小港的臨海園區裡面三元的能源發生的火災燃燒了26小時燒了26小時裡面甚至有造成了這個氫氧酸等等一些危險的一些物質我希望部長這已經我當時上禮拜一發生的我要求兩個禮拜內提出一份報告啦部長有掌握這件事情嗎"},{"start":4743.478,"end":4768.98,"text":"因為那個我都在救災所以如果我希望部長了解一下整個狀況好不好因為下個禮拜整個報告要出來我們要當地跟鄉親們說明就是為什麼這樣的場具有這種高風險高危險的場為什麼會離市民這麼近經濟部的相關有沒有相關的審核的責任我的意思是說經濟部在你的園區內不要把這個東西直接丟給市政府有些部分該你們掌握的責任你們還是要掌握住就是"},{"start":4769.981,"end":4793.019,"text":"高雄小港已經承受了相當多的一些高污染甚至高危險的一些產業而這個當時你看一燒起來以後是消防員是趕快逃出來三位如果沒有逃出來恐怕都很危險的所以那只能讓他繼續在那邊燒讓他燒燒到整個自然那個然後燒掉了26個小時燒了26個小時然後裡面產生了多少的一些"},{"start":4793.86,"end":4817.725,"text":"有害的一些毒氣的部分當天的空污狀況其實是很糟的那我的意思是說我希望經濟部在未來在評估這些事情的時候要審慎思考至少離住宅區至少離人民要離得遠一點你不能夠在這麼近的區域雖然它是叫做臨海產業園區但是它旁邊就是居民很多的居民我們都在談大林埔千村想把一些影響降到最低的結果我們現在又把這些具有高風險"},{"start":4819.059,"end":4826.65,"text":"可能有影響的又放在人民的周邊這個是人民是很難接受的我希望經濟部在這件事情上未來要加強去做把關"},{"start":4827.711,"end":4848.671,"text":"部長可以嗎 給我們一個承諾我們會加強來加強把關通知 幾乎該有的則也要訂進來但是報告委員 他進來的時候我們他是符合這個我們產業園區各種用地用途及使用規範辦法的第三條產業用地第一項規定為容許引進的產業部長 我就希望請你們再去思考跟檢討"},{"start":4850.653,"end":4864.582,"text":"一個燃燒了26個小時他的安全他的所有的周邊一定他的消防所有的一定出了一些問題包括他的狀況顯然超出了李明軒預期的狀況他不是一般我們所熟悉的這些廠房同時他燃燒出來的是"},{"start":4867.048,"end":4889.935,"text":"清佛酸有毒的這個是甚至於它有毒性的一些物質的這個周邊的居民其實都相當擔心的甚至於當天還有很多人說當天的空氣甚至當天的水他們都擔心這邊是有問題的報告委員您剛才所指責的這個空氣品質監測我想我們都有設置這個空氣品質監測站"},{"start":4891.516,"end":4915.231,"text":"那您剛所說的部分有害空氣污染物到目前為止我想我們都沒有發現有空污的問題部長我知道了裡面在廠內有一度有監測到廠內一度有監測到但是我要講的是即使是在周邊也都是這種的那它的擴散效應等等我的意思是說那個只是一個最低最低的標準"},{"start":4915.911,"end":4929.497,"text":"最低最低的標準啦這種東西放在離居民這麼近這件事情本身就有高度的爭議啦我還是要請部長思考不要完全的相信跟迷失在那所謂的監測站監測不是24小時監測監測也不是所有的周邊的點全部監測監測時"},{"start":4934.119,"end":4958.858,"text":"拿出來測一下他永遠有 帶有很多的不確定性在那對我來說 這件事情就是不你想啦 如果是在台北市的哪一個區域裡面願意接受這樣的東西嗎台北市的任何一個區域你告訴我願意接受這樣的東西嗎那如果不行的話 請臨海公衛區用更 重新調整你們的標準重新調整標準 它這裡面會產生有毒的氣質有毒的氣體即使是會產生有毒氣體的風險"},{"start":4963.024,"end":4979.95,"text":"你說你沒有監測到不代表沒有發生一度在場內是有監測到一度在場內是有監測到監測了幾次他不是24小時在監測他不是隨時在監測我一直想部長真的要將心比心站在周邊居民的角度來思考"},{"start":4981.56,"end":5008.496,"text":"換作這個東西如果是在中正區有人有辦法接收這樣的事情嗎隔壁有辦法接收這樣的一個廠房嗎距離幾百公尺有辦法接收這樣的廠房所以我講的是請經營部要重新調整你們的標準要更嚴格的去檢視尤其是該進來的廠房標準同時也要提升他的安全性這一次我看來是一堆的問題我看到是一堆的問題我希望部長就在完畢之後花一點點時間了解這個案子好不好好的謝謝部長"},{"start":5010.247,"end":5036.981,"text":"好 謝謝現在請鄭政前委員做詢答謝主席我想請一下經濟部長郭志輝還有我們台電的董事長曾文森然後農業部長陳俊濟然後還有我們交通部政次陳彥博謝謝陳次長"},{"start":5043.237,"end":5066.168,"text":"部長早 首先我想先針對這一次就是主席這次安排了一個丹納斯颱風之後的一個後續的專案報告那我想說對於這次丹納斯颱風重創南台灣的部分其實我們也都非常難過那尤其是針對台電這次其實確實也受到了一些損失那麼在這一次當中的時候我們也看到台電員工"},{"start":5067.335,"end":5089.646,"text":"基層的員工在這一次在搶救後續相關問題的時候是非常非常的認真那當中也碰到了有出現了一個感電事故的問題那我想說尤其我們看到他說他的在IG上面留言說他三天沒睡幾個小時他針對這個部分的時候我想因為台電在事後說會馬上進行一個檢討的報告我想請教這檢討報告出來了沒有大概什麼時候可以出來"},{"start":5099.175,"end":5119.486,"text":"那個跟委員報告那個對於我們這些輪班的工作台電會做一些討論那我們上個週上個禮拜六晚上九點才把所有的電力修復那今天是星期一的早上其實我知道這個電的問題喔我知道你們很努力在做那我們昨天已經在做這件事"},{"start":5121.347,"end":5136.22,"text":"基層勞工他們這個部分因為會講到說三天沒睡幾個小時的部分那是不是在我們制度上面對於他們超時工作的部分PR工作的部分其實是有一個不完善的一個制度我想針對這部分來跟董事長這邊就教"},{"start":5137.265,"end":5166.425,"text":"所以說我們現在台電這邊我們會去了解就是說其實這一段時間以來我們有很多工班派出去去搶修我們也看到很多畫面很多的民眾事實上感謝台電同仁修復但我們會遇到一個狀況一個案子在那個地方做我到了晚上10點我是要繼續把它做完還是跟所有的民眾說抱歉"},{"start":5167.425,"end":5188.657,"text":"我們明天再來所以這個部分的時候我們就碰到了一個問題就是說如果會這樣子的一個超時工作然後三天沒睡幾個小時就顯然人力很缺嘛三天沒睡幾個小時這件事我們要這個是一個調查之後 對所以我想說一定是人力有短缺的部分對不對一定非常的辛勞"},{"start":5189.477,"end":5218.432,"text":"是 當然我們對於台電的基層員工的時候的辛苦我們都看在眼裡而且我們也感同身受而且我們也非常的肯定那我只是要想說以整個經濟部跟整個台電公司來說我們要給他們一個怎麼樣的一個好的制度當然風災這件事情不是每天都會發生可是我們還是要有一個比較好的制度去因應它那我看到的一個情況就是說在整個經濟部有點躺水下面的一個重大的公安事故當中的時候"},{"start":5218.752,"end":5235.521,"text":"台電的比重是最高的佔據一半以上我覺得這些事情你要去除以百萬小時就是說你的那個工量員工人數等等的母數要進來平均所以我想把今天這個問題的時候再往下把它給這個focus在比方說我想請教在我們"},{"start":5240.123,"end":5252.611,"text":"112年之前因為我們現在看到台電經濟部這邊提供出來的數字只在113年3月以前那麼在這之前的時候我想請教一下台電的重大子在當中的時候發生感電事故的次數有幾次"},{"start":5254.594,"end":5272.092,"text":"我可不可以回去查資料給你可以 我可以直接跟你講目前在這個113年3月之前總共有5次它不包含就是2月份有出現的一次資料這是監察院這邊統計出來的資料那在這次數當中的時候我發現承染商這邊的一個"},{"start":5273.653,"end":5292.779,"text":"次數其實更多那我只是想針對這個部分因為基本上一定是人力有缺所以經濟部有跟勞動部要求開放外籍的人士來進來做一個配電外線的一個工作我想請教一下 董事長知道這個狀態嗎"},{"start":5294.159,"end":5320.343,"text":"我跟委員報告因為國營事業需要考試所以不會有移工包商可以有移工所以說我們看到所有的一個感電事故當中的時候包商發生的情況多所以我想請教一下以目前因為今年開始的時候開放的這個部分包商可以去申請移工的部分我們大概需要多少的"},{"start":5320.683,"end":5337.895,"text":"那個工人來補充這樣子的一個配線配電外線的一個部分大概需要多少人力才足夠跟委員報告因為包商的部分是協助台電一起來做工程的施作那其實他跟工程的量體有關"},{"start":5339.316,"end":5363.208,"text":"原來我們是在做例行的工作可是這次颱風之後我們可能會增加很多真的是要補強的大量的工作所以我們就是希望說就是台電因為台灣每天都會有颱風啦每年季都有颱風所以針對這樣的問題的時候我們希望能夠有一個更好的一個制度然後對於這樣子基層的一個台電員工的時候能夠有比較多的保障"},{"start":5364.469,"end":5381.155,"text":"補充一個訊息外方的廠商肯定是我們解決問題的一個來源之一這是其中一個部分我講台電本身台電本身我當董事長以後這三年台電增加了超過2000名的員工成長率是8.7%"},{"start":5383.206,"end":5398.997,"text":"那我想說這一段時間以來我們其實很清楚知道說我們需要努力的來增加那關鍵是經濟部非常非常的支持其實過去是一個管控人員的狀況好的 董事長這個部分你如果說要針對這個部分你可以給我後續的書面資料因為我還有一個問題要問然後我是針對今天針對這樣子的一個基層"},{"start":5407.917,"end":5431.209,"text":"勞工 基層員工他們的一個工作的狀態我們特別提出關心所以說經濟部也跟勞動部做了一個溝通那如果說這個部分也顯然就是我們要解決問題的方法之一所以我們希望說到底需要多少然後目前有多少的時候我們還需要勞動部這邊配合所以你給我一個完整的書面資料好不好好那接下來是我想請教一下郭部長就是我們"},{"start":5433.645,"end":5460.629,"text":"鄧麗君我們行政院副院長是不是這個禮拜還要再到美國去談關稅的問題是的是嗎那我在想說因為我們看到之前就是7月8號賴總統公布出來的這個照片的時候在講對等關稅裡面其實我發現其實經濟部跟農業部都不在這樣子的一個照片當中可是我們覺得對等關稅的談判裡面經濟部跟農業部肯定是重點重中之重"},{"start":5461.249,"end":5487.074,"text":"所以我比較好奇的狀態是說在比方說7月11號行政院副院長他們回來的時候當時是肯定還沒有談成一個條件那是不是因為我們經濟部跟農業部這邊提供出來的談判籌碼還不夠所以這一次的時候回來之後在做了這樣的溝通之後我們是不是還有準備新的談判籌碼要過去談這部分可不可以請部長做一個簡單回應"},{"start":5488.054,"end":5511.068,"text":"報告委員我想因為我不是實際的談判小組內容我不是很清楚所以沒有辦法回答委員的詢問不過我們總是在談判上面美方要求我們對於出國管制對於我們邊境的防護有高度的期許所以我們當初"},{"start":5511.668,"end":5528.221,"text":"我們這個編了這個費用的時候大家這個輿論在講說這個國防跟這個海巡的這個費用要拿掉什麼所以這個引起美方非常大的關注所以我想先請教一下針對這次因為8月1號也快到了但你剛剛提到說他可以再延"},{"start":5535.126,"end":5545.893,"text":"那你覺得我們有沒有可能跟美國在8月1號之前把這部分把它給談下來然後稅率大概會落在什麼樣子的一個range因為大家都非常的擔心東亞這邊大概只剩下台灣還沒有談出來"},{"start":5548.902,"end":5566.693,"text":"這個匯率會落到哪裡要這個去談我想這個不是我在這邊可以臆測的那我想跟委員報告我們大家都非常的努力希望能夠爭取到目標放在哪裡 稅率我們會非常努力我們希望能夠跟我們的競爭國談出來一個比我們的競爭國家更好的這個稅率"},{"start":5567.734,"end":5596.22,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那我想這邊我想接下來問一下農業部長因為這個美國貿易代表3月曾經提交一個2025年對外貿易障礙評估報告特別點名台灣這邊包括了一個美豬美牛馬鈴薯然後稻米跟基改食品米酒的稅率這個問題然後他特別提到這個部分是不必要的貿易障礙那我想請教一下部長他裡面甚至也特別提到要希望說台灣這邊要取消"},{"start":5597.04,"end":5607.595,"text":"學童營養午餐不得使用基改食物的禁令針對這些部分的時候我想請教一下部長我們這些部分有哪些部門會繼續堅持還是會有一些妥協"},{"start":5608.758,"end":5627.771,"text":"第一個委員報告有關於基改食品競技校園這個部分是衛福部的主管的一個權責那就農業部來講其實我們關切的是國內的農業的生產那在這次關稅的一個談判過程中當然美方有美方的期待那我們也有我們要堅持的"},{"start":5628.231,"end":5644.927,"text":"那我們的堅持就是一定要確保糧食安全確保我們的產業永續而且更重要的是要保障我們農民的權益所以在談判過程中我們還是會針對這三個原則去做有效的溝通希望能夠找到一個大家都雙贏的或互補的這樣的一個結果"},{"start":5648.63,"end":5672.196,"text":"石部長我說台北貿易肯定是重要關稅問題肯定是重要可是對於國內的健康問題肯定也非常的重要那麼我們希望農業部這邊該建設的部分請貿易部一定要堅持住好不好這個我想那個包括行政院也特別提到就是我們一定會確保我們國人的一個健康這個是我想一個非常重要的一個前提OK好 謝謝陳部長那我接下來想要問因為賴總統請問一下那個次長"},{"start":5678.257,"end":5690.55,"text":"交通部 陳次長因為賴總統預計八月份要出訪中南美那可能會過境紐約跟達拉斯那麼在這過程當中的時候其實大家就思考到一個狀態就是說是不是會在美國的時候 賴總統會在美國的時候宣布對美國的一個波音公司的一個採購案"},{"start":5701.145,"end":5716.267,"text":"請次長做一個簡單回應我想跟委員報告一下有關航空公司的採購案我想公司裡頭他會整體的考量至於說總統出訪的時候會不會有相關的宣布我個人並不曉得"},{"start":5717.588,"end":5746.15,"text":"因為交通部對於整個我們飛機的採購肯定其實是有一些影響力的那我知道說其實飛機採購當中其實在這一次很多國家的一個對點談判當中也發生了一定的一個影響力所以我們如果說要對於美國有一個航空器的一個採購的時候當然是一個談判條件當中之一那我們希望說能夠幫台灣爭取到最好的一個條件能夠讓整個台灣的經濟整體其實是往好的方向去發展的"},{"start":5746.892,"end":5756.383,"text":"那這部分就請我們經濟部、農業部跟我們交通部這邊都一起努力謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請張其開委員做詢答張其開委員詢答結束後休息10分鐘"},{"start":5791.47,"end":5816.817,"text":"請主管救災的內政部政府次長董建宏董次長還有農業部部長陳經濟陳部長委員好次長丹尼斯重創了南台灣特別是嘉義跟台南這不只是天災也是人後這是中華民國第一次國軍"},{"start":5819.744,"end":5835.513,"text":"沒有投入救災而且嘉義跟台南天災那麼嚴重救災的速度非常的慢甚至有些災情都被政府被某些媒體輕易的媒體把它蓋住了我看你今天的報告"},{"start":5842.291,"end":5868.456,"text":"這次啊 特別是加一根台南房屋損害的 被颱風整個屋頂掀開了 牆壁都破掉了門窗都被吹破了一萬八千戶一萬八千個家庭 到現在很多都還沒修好有些只能蓋著帆布 現在南部又開始下雨了停電 超過一百萬戶結果國金竟然可以不進去幫忙"},{"start":5870.542,"end":5896.932,"text":"跟委員報告我們的農業魚業 矽木業 農企業像現在跟台南很多蘭花都種創了政府有深有同感急著去幫他們嗎我先問你一個今天你報告裡面最讓我生氣的你是負責救災的你現在報告裡面說這次丹納斯死亡人數兩人"},{"start":5900.424,"end":5902.466,"text":"在行通報10459件受傷人是708只有兩位嗎"},{"start":5908.247,"end":5931.925,"text":"對 只有兩位嗎對 我們目前收到的那個所有相關的通報是如此那也跟各位委員報告我們截至7月18日的17時多累計通報10459件兩人死亡 708人受傷那我們整個災害應變中心在運作的時間裡面我們共同疏離了4253人那其中也因好與疏散了3096人11個縣市開設67處的收容所"},{"start":5936.688,"end":5965.366,"text":"所有的876人市長我先跟你討論兩條市長市長你這個報告我跟你講了重點就是剛剛講的你說死亡人數是兩位我跟你講兩條非常寶貴的生命你們沒有寫進去戴慶德總統是在7月11號到台南去勘災你知道嗎在他勘災前已經有一位嘉義我的嘉義鄉親他爬到樓上也是為了屋頂被風吹走了"},{"start":5967.375,"end":5995.416,"text":"心臟病病吧一條人命為了要修他的屋頂那裡總統在7月11號到了台南的時候張一鳴很無助地跟他講趕快派國軍來幫忙他講我的屋頂被掀開了請總統派人來幫忙我爬不上去總統冷冷地回了一句不要再自己爬了有人真的聽了總統的話爬上去了"},{"start":5996.776,"end":6024.972,"text":"7月16號台南家裡去了一位60歲的民眾他媽媽已經98歲了這民眾還是家裡的獨子 獨家他為了修家裡的房子爬上去一家人命就沒有了如果在7月11號當蔡英明已經跟總統陳情了"},{"start":6027.657,"end":6056.287,"text":"那時候國軍去幫忙或者是內政部你們都派一些人力這保衛人命不用喪屍了耶我們內政部的確有派相當的人力我們把我們的替代役我們的警大警專的替代役1350人都已經派過去了處長你的替代役當時去你的替代役什麼時候去了我們在7月15號就已經7月初就已經派7月14號我們就派過去了你當時派替代役去"},{"start":6057.54,"end":6083.761,"text":"委員 相關的人力的派遣我們必須要受到那個中央的指示指揮我們才能夠派遣那麼我們的人力的派遣也非常的迅速我們就需要所有的人力的所有的人力的損失都是一個遺憾我們都非常努力在協助我們會努力的去照顧所有的人每一個人命的損失都是我們國人的損失我們都非常的遺憾我們也都努力的去協助照顧所有的人"},{"start":6084.753,"end":6113.508,"text":"所以洪太子7月6號的深淚就已經登陸了120年來第一個從嘉義登陸的颱風最大的風速是七級風損害那麼嚴重郭金子去的第一天就被調走了當然要憨慨遠襲可是是不是因為就在如同作戰嘛那你剛講你們的替代役竟然到十幾號才去一個禮拜多你們怎麼堆起災民啊"},{"start":6115.216,"end":6144.532,"text":"我們都每天都有很多一百九的參觀的替代役服務役人員在現場服務協助我們不是只有我們是真派替代役的人員我們不是說沒有替代役的人員在現場在國軍有史以來第一次沒有去救災的同時你們人力派遣這麼慢的同時至少我剛剛講發生了兩起很大的悲劇我覺得你死亡人數還是要加上去該去撫恥了該去慰問了趕快去第二個是讓人家生氣了"},{"start":6147.345,"end":6173.276,"text":"災情那麼嚴重民眾都已經跟你們講了當著總統的面拜託要求了國軍不去市長你們負責救災利益連累乃至國軍沒有去依照災防救法地方縣市政府要求國軍要去對不對如果受災非常嚴重國軍要主動去"},{"start":6175.307,"end":6202.591,"text":"那是反應嗎?有提醒首頭嗎?國安部也出動了4000多人次前去救災救援我們在整個災情中央應變中心的過程裡面從7月8號開始7月5號開始設置之來我們就不斷的派遣相關的軍力還有人力、民力、好,替代役都有到現場去協助、去幫忙那麼相關的人力的不足或是我們都後續都有在補充、在補足那麼"},{"start":6203.806,"end":6229.959,"text":"他救災還是根本謊言被拆穿我剛講的那個場景那麼清清楚楚在災後的已經到了第五天那時候台灣民眾黨已經提了正式的案子要求要重訴因為災情一件一件又爆回來沒有人去幫人 人力不夠嘛所以才有那個賴清德11號到了台南那個場景嘛結果民眾是怎麼跟他講的我們需要國軍"},{"start":6232.12,"end":6259.295,"text":"國際依照法令本來就該去第二個你們內政部為什麼沒有積極去爭取對不對相關的民力人力物力包括國軍我們其實都有派遣也都有出許相關的紀錄都有我們都可以調給委員看你剛剛講十幾號你們還派替代役替代役是增加的我們是真派替代役本來現場就有替代役我們在場就有替代役"},{"start":6260.969,"end":6289.532,"text":"人力本來就有你來看結果,好台南跟嘉義超過一萬八千個家庭,房子的屋頂被掀走了進戶設什麼事情第一個,到今天還有多少戶還沒有修建完成三四千戶嘛,只有台南可能要兩三千戶嘉義可能也要幾百戶啊外國用東街就要有百多戶,還沒用完啊宜甸比較多,跟寶寶比較多"},{"start":6291.598,"end":6295.365,"text":"那更嚴重了 處長你們做什麼幫忙你們發環部發環部"},{"start":6299.045,"end":6324.69,"text":"我們不是只有幫忙我們協助了很多地方的民眾我們請地方的工班也都過去幫忙我們也協調了慈濟也協調了那個台積電都進相當的工班都進去協助幫忙那麼地方政府也積極跟我們合作配合所以許多的地方政府其實也派遣了許多的人力物力都在地方上面進行協助我們的替代役我們的那個警消的替代役也都進去協助了"},{"start":6325.37,"end":6354.453,"text":"事實上許多的人都在這邊現場做很多的志工跟服務那個市長我希望你今天巡打的時候要注意兩個很重要的事情第一個台南跟嘉義到現在很多人的家裡還是殘破不堪的滿目倉儀的第二個今天還來得及我覺得今天該派下去的人力該有的物資要趕快趕快去賴清德總統去的第五天蔡平是埋怨說"},{"start":6356.431,"end":6383.516,"text":"除了里長之外市政府人中央的觀點都沒有到啊我現在更進一步跟你講光是我我送環部光是一個役主我就送了三批耶民眾一些山津人士知道這個災情到了第五天看到賴總統去的時候民眾說要需要環部家裡是殘破不堪的已經第五天要多淒慘啊你想像你家裡面五天停電房子是殘破不堪的你怎麼住"},{"start":6385.575,"end":6397.098,"text":"沒水又沒電就是陳庭威今天講的連通信有些都沒有耶像個孤島那時候政府在哪裡包括一些媒體朋友拜託你們一下多報導好不好我送了三部環部過去他們帶已經第五天了"},{"start":6418.567,"end":6432.022,"text":"民眾帶我去看他們家園殘破不堪那個路上電線可能不是吹倒耶是整個斷掉耶有一條路短短的我走不到30公尺大家看一下這個畫面"},{"start":6446.531,"end":6473.925,"text":"這個不是催 催倒是整個那個電線桿 兩個電線桿這樣子整個被封整個催倒一條路上十幾根電線桿旁邊就是餘溫一族是全台灣乳族 乳 乳乳最多的好多魚都死掉了你看那個黑暗的地方 你去看那個魚肉已經 叮叭 都浮上來了"},{"start":6476.807,"end":6496.102,"text":"結果到今天今天他發現災情這麼嚴重的時候現在那個最擔心是什麼你家裡面如果現在屋頂是用環布蓋住市長現在如果又下大雨怎麼辦"},{"start":6497.691,"end":6520.644,"text":"我們已經在之前就已經跟地方縣政府都已經通報過遇到相關的災害我們其實都已經有後備的那個收容中心都已經準備好事實上在那個週末的時候因為颱風的關係事實上已經請嘉義縣政府跟台南市政府準備好收容中心而且許多相關的那個受災戶也已經都到收容中心去了"},{"start":6521.224,"end":6550.632,"text":"所以這些相關的準備其實我們都有準備好那我們也積極的去照顧所有的災民那政府也在7月18號我們就已經將相關的補助措施我們都已經通過也積極在跟地方政府合作那把發放慰問金跟整個後續的災害的準備跟修復包括我們剛才講的我們透過慈濟透過台積電還有許多的工班的協助我們不是只有蓋防布盤我們包括整個的災後的房屋的整個修繕"},{"start":6551.272,"end":6576.217,"text":"作業我們整體都在進行當中就到目前為止還有好幾千戶家裡面都只是用帆布有些甚至到現在連帆布都沒有這多悲慘的一個狀況所以我今天我嚴正的要求趕快再增派人力去好不好物資趕快再進去我們會積極處理市長真的很丟臉啊你看一下這個情況我們會積極處理我們已經在積極處理政府還沒除過人力進去的時候詐騙集團已經進去了"},{"start":6581.943,"end":6607.912,"text":"民眾現在嘉義跟台南民眾碰到什麼問題要找人來修復 要擺2個位沒有物料喔他們已經受災了超過兩個禮拜了現在要找人來修 要跟2個位要擺2個位要擺到那些該有的材料也都沒有結果碰刺的是詐騙集團已經進去了你政府不做詐騙集團先趕進去了這框那個業者"},{"start":6612.055,"end":6632.042,"text":"隨便幫你拉個環部騙走了19萬還不是一個個案這個案我們第一時間就掌握也抓到了第一時間我們掌握我們就抓到了所以我們不會讓民眾被騙我們也會保護所有民眾的安全部長你不會覺得很難過嗎很丟臉嗎這本是政府該做的事情如果政府早就把這個修站做好"},{"start":6633.649,"end":6645.896,"text":"怎麼會有詐騙集團進去委員這是120年來我們第一次遇到的大災害我們會全力來協助對嘛這個就是我今天要提醒大家的嘛120年來的第一次從嘉義這個登陸是七疾風"},{"start":6647.438,"end":6663.423,"text":"停電超過一百萬戶一萬八千個家庭的房子到那時候殘破不堪政府到底那時候應該不只國金進去嘛要請全力去幫忙嘛結果就是因為救援太慢弄到現在現在現在台南還有一些民眾"},{"start":6666.204,"end":6693.691,"text":"我們從7月5號設置開始我們就不斷的派遣相關的軍力、民力還有各方的力量、志工、團體都進去裡面協助我想請委員就是我們一定全力去協助所有該做的事情也謝謝委員的指教剛講的是房子昨天陳平碑都看不下去跑出來講通訊有人受傷了因為信號不通"},{"start":6696.358,"end":6721.107,"text":"來不及救治 人就不幸走了我連上個禮拜 已經進入第二個禮拜了我上禮拜回嘉義 回去台南某些地方連我電話都接不到 我連LINE都接不到總統可以當著民眾的面講說 勾勾紋流勾勾紋流只有一個中華電信 其他兩家呢"},{"start":6722.793,"end":6747.399,"text":"我跟你講我的電話我的手機也是中華電信啊我很多地方的LINE都接不到嘛我一直救災要聯絡事情民眾看到災情那民眾傳那個簡訊說可以提供一部分的經費趕快去買電鋸為什麼要送電鋸樹倒大一片你沒有電鋸鋸開你怎麼去收拾那些倒下來的樹"},{"start":6748.649,"end":6777.314,"text":"停電你要發電機要物資要防部電話打不通到上禮拜還是這樣子現在連陳廷輝昨天出來講在台南有些地方通訊都還有問題相關的通訊設備我們都已經都已經協調各個電信廠商都已經進去了當然相關的電訊設備也都有機器的完成在處理當中所有的系統都在恢復當中"},{"start":6779.17,"end":6793.838,"text":"我請那個農業部部長那個經濟部郭部長我今天就不問你了因為等一下我們會有立法會另外來問那個光電的這次污染這個問題你今天報告裡面經濟部今天報告裡面講到說光電板大部分已經整理差不多我實際給他看一下光電板的狀況嘉義啊有四個地方有水上的這個光電"},{"start":6808.595,"end":6836.591,"text":"我去詢問在那個製縫室上面做的那個這個已經是風災的第11天了我去的時候風災的第11天 你看右上角這是湖板 整個都已經飄到旁邊去了它本來是要承載那個光電板的變成這樣 右上角湖板都已經被打到那個岸邊去了右下角"},{"start":6838.697,"end":6860.154,"text":"那個光電板 太陽能光電板整個翻過來了我去的時候已經是風災的第十一天了整理不到十分之一結果今天經濟部說大部分已經處理好了部長你說你說 我只是請你要盡快啦因為有次長在上禮拜來打詢的時候他講說99都已經處理好了這裡面兩個很大問題 第一個有沒有污染的問題"},{"start":6866.872,"end":6894.483,"text":"這旁邊就是海喔 尤其是在宜溫然後在台南市那個光電板打上來 還把台南市的警察局的警車砸壞了好幾步很多家庭房子是被那個光電打到 還有人被打到所以一個是在安全的問題 設施的問題 第二個現在沒有污染的問題 甚至錯誤的能源政策 你把核電停掉的時候 你要發展光電"},{"start":6896.434,"end":6917.319,"text":"山上也是光電 海裡也是光電結果安全嗎有汙染嗎風災來了 你為什麼禁不起風吹風吹呢你事後趕快要整理啊 有汙染的問題啊有沒有雜傷人的問題啊整個能源政策要怎麼改啊今天時間有限"},{"start":6918.71,"end":6941.379,"text":"我就不再請教這個郭部長了我請回去趕快好好處理這個問題我知道等一下也有其他立委問這個題目這次颱風體檢了我們光電的這個一堆的弊病所以我們會追到底我請教陳部長剛剛還有民進黨立委還在造謠那個錢不過的事情救災的預算裡面有一個霸王條款"},{"start":6948.712,"end":6950.934,"text":"災害防救法第57條就是你剛剛講的以緩救急對不對 你剛剛也講嘛你的基金有372億耶以緩救急就是在災害發生的時候災害最優先 什麼可能簽不過的問題第二個 我們行政院還有災害防救的這個今年的預算 50億"},{"start":6975.441,"end":6981.967,"text":"第二預備薪八十億怎麼可能出現錢不過啊你剛剛也講 你剛剛講說行政院要報到立法院對不對我跟委員報告"},{"start":6985.729,"end":7011.572,"text":"當初您刪了這個九千萬是公務撥補基金只要撥補基金的經費被刪了以後根據預算法第二十二條我們就不能凍資二倍金除非經過立法院同意對嘛 所以你能不能一步說送立法院但是相對的就是說我送立法院的話要多久時間才能通過包括我們現在的最佳預算還躺在立法院另外我要跟委員報告喔"},{"start":7012.313,"end":7041.169,"text":"天災的部分是非常急迫的以去年來講我們編27億結果最後是75億在那裡面我們就動資了22億的預備金很快的就能夠讓農民得到一些救助今年我們編了39億部長你不要誤導民眾你現在最直接我現在問你最直接最直接的我覺得沒有誤導民眾現在救災的錢有沒有不夠你跟我講有沒有不夠我找人要去講有沒有不夠但是這一次下去一定不夠"},{"start":7042.922,"end":7054.934,"text":"這次完結束以後一定不夠到什麼時候風災再來而且下次為什麼就不夠我跟您等一下等一下等一下我跟您報告喔部長你對一個新公民黨講你這是救災錢有少一毛錢不夠嗎我告訴你有沒有"},{"start":7056.465,"end":7081.798,"text":"有沒有這雷馬錢不夠對著全國民眾講現在沒有不夠 39億已經花了21億了畢竟這次台灣不算 已經花了21億根據過去我們現在32.5億的粗暴至少我們救助至少要40億第一個 現在沒有不夠 部長清清楚楚講的對不對所以不要再造謠錢不夠的問題第二 我剛剛講了第五範圍的大王銷款"},{"start":7085.345,"end":7108.735,"text":"災害防救法第57條所有各級機關的預算災害防救法本身它是用非常多的不是只有農業災害防救法裡面所需要的錢不是只有給農業部的包括經濟部包括內政部包括你剛才講的那些民房的損失這些要救助然後災害防救法以農業部來講是以天然災害救助基金為主"},{"start":7109.215,"end":7130.571,"text":"我不夠的時候我也不能動之其他的基金的部分基金您剛才說的基金我們比去年多可是相對的這個基金裡面我們列的是什麼我們列的是對肥料的補助我們列的是對子女眷居金的一個補助我們列的是對於所謂的那個貸款的一個現金的差額補助所以我們增加的經費是"},{"start":7131.972,"end":7147.953,"text":"有他的用途 不能說隨便就來挪來挪去我砍的那九千萬就是砍那個壞蛋 超時期蛋花我們人民納稅錢五點三億的結果全部的基金三百七十二 你一定講說救災不夠你其他錢用到什麼地方去了你一直強調 你一直強調糧食要我們"},{"start":7150.396,"end":7164.087,"text":"要增加供糧的經費我們在這次的預算裡面增加的又有一部分是糧食的經費所以每一項我們增加的經費都是有科目的我們不能說今天救災的我就挖洞牆補吸牆對嘛我砍了你九千臭雞蛋的錢嘛你為什麼說跟救災有關係當然有關係啊你怎麼聽不懂欸"},{"start":7171.133,"end":7191.644,"text":"那個是農業發展基金的這個小基金裡面的你講的救助基金又是另外一個基金啊跟病不一樣你怎麼亂湊我告訴你我再講最後一次當你刪了公務撥補基金你只要刪了以後所有的基金就當你經費不夠就不能用所謂的二倍金"},{"start":7192.364,"end":7207.075,"text":"除非說經過立法院同意所以你承認兩個基金不一樣了嘛對不對第一個你講的是說需要通過用第二億北京要經過立法院那你就送啊部長我告訴你 天來一塞立法院如果第二億北京為了救災第二億北京沒過我張起來 吃掉立委"},{"start":7210.137,"end":7231.444,"text":"我告訴你 天災有很高的不確定性當我們需要經費的時候 所有的經費我們如果直接報運同意就可以用了如果今天還要透過立法院 還要經過程序委員會還要所有東西 還要表決那相對的那個時間上沒辦法來得及啊所以我特別強調的 我只是講客觀的事實我絕對沒有造謠"},{"start":7238.417,"end":7261.662,"text":"這就是造謠第一個你的錢到目前沒有一毛錢不夠對不對我說的是以後不夠的時候我說以後的第二個你一直在講我剛講災害防救法有各式各樣可以用當然補貼農民救助農民這災害損失都是我跟委員報告齁最重要你一直造謠一直補定補定我跟委員講你造謠的關鍵就是說第二億北京要送立法院那你就送啊"},{"start":7262.984,"end":7277.324,"text":"我告訴你 我跟你強調天然災害救助的時候它有它的高度不確定性我們的經費如果說還要再經過立法院維護你以後再造謠你第二邊去趕快送 送來沒有 我拿一點造謠"},{"start":7280.754,"end":7302.726,"text":"為什麼要講 講現在錢不夠的事情我告訴你 他們說以後不夠我們就是請行政院把第二預備金趕快送來立法院我們通過 那我們不要再進這個問題再繼續爭議好不好主席報告一下 第一個 現在不到用第二預備金啦現在錢就夠啦 剛剛部長也承認了嘛所以鄰近黨立委在造星天 這個時候錢不夠"},{"start":7304.847,"end":7328.872,"text":"第二個 你如果一直認為第二天一定要送以後嘛 對不對 不是這一次嘛送來 我跟你報告 現在的現在的速報是32.5億根據我們的經驗速報32.5億啊 我們的災損喔要補助現金救濟要補助至少超過40億柏定 你過去四年啊 每一年你的天然災害救濟基金 每年都去追加嘛"},{"start":7329.434,"end":7344.143,"text":"古泥就追了十幾億啊有什麼時候沒有過基金跟動物醫生不一樣基金是可以先用的喔你要舊財你錢不夠你先用完並結算過去都是這樣子 包括去年追了十幾億黑果農業部 黑米的地位還要造謠"},{"start":7347.826,"end":7368.564,"text":"黑愛救急捏我跟以前從來沒有人刪這個公務撥補所以我們凍資二倍金可以直接去凍資現在不行啊所以去年度我們凍資了22億的第二倍金來救災特別是什麼特別是那個凱米、三坨耳跟康瑞台風三個台風我們損失了75億所以鼓勵"},{"start":7369.741,"end":7394.874,"text":"你先用了四十幾億嘛因為你去年沒有被刪啊基金的用法就是你可以先用 緊急狀況就先用因為你刪了啊 刪了就不能動了 被基金就聽不到啦然後並結算就夠啦你也在用這個方法啊對不對 有太多太多方法台灣的法治跟救災非常完整的沒有民進黨在那邊造謠什麼救基金不過這個事情我告訴你 我絕對沒有造謠喔我絕對沒有造謠 我只是把事實我把事實呈現而已啊"},{"start":7397.796,"end":7425.994,"text":"是不是整個問題都清楚了沒有錢不夠對不對我說在今天這個時間點沒有錢不夠第三個你再講第二一杯今天要送禮拜我說的我說的是錢不夠的時候不能夠我送來過你就下台好 謝謝抱歉大家今天有火氣啦我還是拜託大家到目前為止颱風第十五天了我的家一鄉親還有很多人家裡面還是殘破不堪的"},{"start":7427.602,"end":7456.284,"text":"很多修復的只放了帆布蓋在上面有些連修理都還沒修如果是你你敢住在裡面嗎這是多麼無奈的一個事情台南更多耶結果政府人民就求救了總統說國軍沒辦法什麼事都做要社區去自救今天我們明確的要求包括內政部派更多人力"},{"start":7457.978,"end":7469.713,"text":"國際線海關演習已經結束了還來得及 拜託一下趕快去多幫幫我們的災民趕快讓嘉義跟台南重建讓人民可以安居樂業回到正常生活 謝謝好 休息十分鐘"},{"start":7476.434,"end":7477.735,"text":"不會啦,在鬧像這邊有什麼"},{"start":7505.1,"end":7505.441,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7519.429,"end":7519.709,"text":"鲍鱼"},{"start":7551.994,"end":7555.237,"text":"背著不煮飯耶背著不煮飯耶然後全都吃不吃到"},{"start":7563.795,"end":7570.722,"text":"是,對,我說,對,我說,對,對,對,問他那種白痴方式,有自私啊什麼什麼的,這到底這個案子是怎麼來的,然後他說要咱們分擔起來。"},{"start":7587.239,"end":7591.942,"text":"所以這搞不好是什麼東西才會知道所以要問國安部才會知道"},{"start":7615.399,"end":7631.989,"text":"然後我請問一下 它是國家防災與震災那震災 比方說不是震災對 我知道對 我說可是 我知道我知道我說可是這次是跟震災有關嘛 對不對這次 對 它都演震災所以震災如果進一步是是我 對不對"},{"start":7641.674,"end":7650.104,"text":"是不是玻璃絲?所以是...所以是...對,所以水電穩定小組,那就不會涉及到什麼?只有水跟電嗎?不會吧,水力屬嗎?只有水力屬對嗎?"},{"start":7660.131,"end":7669.813,"text":"那還會有什麼 圓館局會不會對嘛 所以我說他們內容到底要點到什麼我們要去找什麼人去弄這個預算你懂我的意思嗎 我的意思是說那店 店怎麼可能會"},{"start":7688.216,"end":7699.507,"text":"電坑跟煙也有啊對啊對水也是修復啊所以水電也是修復啊所以還有什麼單位 因為萬一這個不是 我們希望小型的可能要一些單位"},{"start":7707.677,"end":7712.422,"text":"你確定?你確定是水利署最多嗎?你確定是水利署最多嗎?風災是水利署主在還有風災,一切是正常"},{"start":7724.574,"end":7741.257,"text":"你現在是正在用工具出錢那你現在除了水電工資以外還有什麼時間給人家水電械有什麼本事這個是純粒 純二板可是可能我們多找一些單位來要去攤錢還用不上錢其實我只要攤一百五十萬對對對對對對對對要從議題要找單位對不對然後才可以找錢好 好 OK"},{"start":7752.219,"end":7758.563,"text":"今天會清碗啊快快快快快快快快快快快快快快快快快快"},{"start":7779.495,"end":7784.338,"text":"因為整個都弄下來了電線幹太多了因為他們電線幹嘛你剛才沒有跟我說因為他們那個查理他住的地方我一塊因為那個"},{"start":7803.055,"end":7804.916,"text":"那是金載金載我們金載我們金載"},{"start":7821.541,"end":7822.882,"text":"這應該很快結束因為才總共只16個"},{"start":7838.33,"end":7846.216,"text":"對不起啊,情緒失控啊,對不起啊因為我三年要趕到台東我大概兩年多會走,如果兩年還沒進去,應該不會啦"},{"start":7864.991,"end":7871.374,"text":"謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":8032.054,"end":8049.15,"text":"好现在开会请张嘉俊委员做询答"},{"start":8058.948,"end":8061.976,"text":"謝謝主席我想請陳部長陳部長這個是誰的我也好"},{"start":8067.847,"end":8083.643,"text":"部長辛苦了我想這次丹納斯颱風我也看到你南北奔波全台勘栽的確是辛苦了那本席來自農業大縣那我想責無旁貸一定要為我們的農民發聲那我想要先請教部長我想也請部長好好回答這個問題農業部啟動全品項免限勘的補助標準到底是什麼"},{"start":8094.604,"end":8099.051,"text":"除了農業損失超過千分之五跟振豐達十級以上有沒有任何沒有明說的隱形標準呢"},{"start":8107.423,"end":8133.766,"text":"我可不可以報告第一個您剛才說的千分之五這個的規定已經在今年的三四月間修正過了所以已經沒有這個標準了那請問標準是什麼可以告訴我嗎全體下免限刊的補助標準是什麼我先回答您剛才講的就是千分之五的部分現在已經在天然災害救助規則裡面已經修掉了已經沒有這個依據了第二個部分是時機陣風就免限刊也沒有這個規定"},{"start":8134.747,"end":8154.304,"text":"那所以現在呢 現在的標準是什麼現在我們分兩個部分喔免限刊的部分喔如果說根據我們的天然災害的天氣參數裡面不是每個品項喔我們因為它必須陸陸續續的公告那你先告訴我全品項的標準是什麼"},{"start":8154.824,"end":8172.149,"text":"全品項的部分是第一個我們判斷它整個颱風進來的時候它如果對於它的那個區域那個區域可能是一個鄉鎮可能是一個縣如果具有普遍性的受災的時候所以你現在是在告訴我說你是沒有任何數據依據我們是透過專家會議"},{"start":8175.91,"end":8198.156,"text":"透過專家會議可以去做這樣的一個處理這是為了所以是沒有任何現在目前全品項免限刊你再告訴我是沒有任何有數據的依據嗎我跟委員報告全品項跟免限刊是兩件事情我們要先公告公告的時候我們可以用一個品項一個品項公告"},{"start":8198.456,"end":8211.575,"text":"我當然知道等一下我要問你一個一個品項但是我現在就問你怎麼樣啟動因為過去是有農業損失超過千分之五然後振豐達十級以上的這個條件那"},{"start":8214.319,"end":8221.042,"text":"雲林縣這一次其實是符合公告損失千分之五的雲林縣農業產值430億千分之五是兩億一千萬目前農損已經超過4.5億"},{"start":8229.805,"end":8254.887,"text":"遠超標準而且如果假設是氣候參數陣風達10級以上雲林縣20個鄉鎮有17個鄉鎮是達到陣風10級以上甚至沿海的鄉鎮還有超過17級陣風的結果這樣子你告訴我說沒有達標全品項沒有免限刊也沒有到底是為什麼呢你可以告訴我原因嗎我剛才已經跟委員"},{"start":8255.828,"end":8278.093,"text":"很明確的講就是說千分之五這個標準已經取消了那是三月取消的對 今年的應該三月中為什麼原因取消的呢因為用整個產業你用什麼取代這個東西呢還是你現在就打算就沒有標準就是你部長一個人說了就算了絕對不是我部長一個人說了就算了那你專家會議的組成是怎麼組成的"},{"start":8279.313,"end":8290.451,"text":"專家會議的組成是我們所有的試驗改良場所在第一線勘栽的包括我們的農林漁序的分屬的部分所以人數是多少然後組成是多少"},{"start":8292.287,"end":8302.438,"text":"我們人數是依照我們的我們要去檢討的這個品項如果今天是農糧類的就是農糧署還有農糧署的分數所以你覺得專家會議會不會恍不濟急呢會不會說颱風來了你還要把這些人都叫進來然後在那邊開會這是符合我們救災程序的嗎"},{"start":8312.709,"end":8331.089,"text":"我告訴你我要跟委員報告現在的就在程序就是有地方政府提報以後做釋放限刊我知道這些你不用再跟我說我不清楚嗎所以我現在是在問你全體像免限刊到底標準是什麼假設你說三四月已經取消了農業產值的標準那你的心"},{"start":8333.611,"end":8340.514,"text":"標準是什麼可以告訴我們嗎我們針對全品項如果要公告的時候我們的所有的試驗感染場所包括我們分組的同仁會在整個災區去看一遍所以你也不確定專家會議的人數是多少是嗎他會根據你要討論的議題所以你這個是你有一個很明確的規範嗎有嗎有可以提供我們委員會所有的委員參考嗎因為不只是我"},{"start":8358.703,"end":8371.447,"text":"我相信包括蔡易宇委員 包括陳廷輝委員還有包括謝依鳳主席他們都會需要有一個這樣子的指引那我們很清楚知道說哪一個項目 哪一個品項是哪一些委員會跟我們做這個專家會議而且專家會議到底要開多久我舉一個例好了 我舉一個例"},{"start":8383.31,"end":8401.505,"text":"這一次呢其實我真是希望救災是要不分藍綠的面對颱風來襲我們所有的農民他不只是生存受到威脅他的這些農產品是已經就是血本無歸了結果讓農民感受到差別待遇這就是二度傷害部長"},{"start":8402.586,"end":8420.478,"text":"我們雲林縣的農業損失 農作物損失不包括漁業好了 我先把漁業排除是全國第二遠高於嘉義結果在7月7號農業部就公告說嘉義台南全品項補助雲林沒有"},{"start":8422.833,"end":8450.632,"text":"然後一直到7月18號下午4點為止雲林縣的農業損失已經高達4億3666萬僅次於台南是全國第二到目前為止我們還沒有被公告全品項免限刊到底是什麼樣子的依據你覺得嘉義可以嘉義損失比我們少他可以全品項免限刊我們雲林縣不可以你告訴我原因可以嗎"},{"start":8451.413,"end":8461.626,"text":"第一個部分颱風從嘉義進來那個時候因為這次颱風最主要是風量的關係所以你的依據是它颱風登陸的位置是嗎"},{"start":8462.956,"end":8480.346,"text":"我們考量的是一個非常多的一個專業的考量第一個不是台風的路徑所帶來的風速那那個風速本身在嘉義台南地區它有普遍性的造成你剛剛不是跟我說你不參考這個什麼時級陣風嗎我沒有說沒有我說時級陣風沒有所謂的時級陣風免限刊這件事情"},{"start":8485.144,"end":8510.193,"text":"那所以也沒有全品項那你剛才現在又告訴我說這個嘉義因為陣風比較大所以我剛才說的就是我要開全品項的時候我第一個一定考量到整個的颱風的路徑它所帶來的特別是風速那嘉義台南的地區它大概的風速大概是14到17級的風所以你現在告訴我最新的依據是要14到17級的陣風才可以開全品項嗎"},{"start":8511.394,"end":8515.058,"text":"這個東西沒有說絕對的一個標準所以部長我希望你要訂定一個明確的標準這未來你要做事也很有依據我們現在也訂了非常多的項目當然沒有包括全部的項目它的風速如果達到某個程度的時候"},{"start":8528.033,"end":8547.843,"text":"所以希望你盡快的把它明確定出來因為這對於你農業部你也好做事然後對於縣市政府他也好做事對於農民他心裡才會有一個依據嘛你為什麼不把它明定出來呢我現在也沒有要檢討你說你是不是大細心你是不是有這個偏頗我現在告訴你說你要趕快定定明確的標準啊"},{"start":8556.127,"end":8573.361,"text":"你要讓所有人心中覺得說這樣確定我一定有這我再問你 我就問你好了因為沒有全品項的補助我們雖然是農作物損害全國第二高沒有全品項救助在雲林我們已經開了98項的品項了"},{"start":8576.909,"end":8587.617,"text":"我就是要告訴你是 你要一項一項開從那一天颱風來開始我們在 我們賴總統去勘災的時候那個時候開33項那時候爆出51項 你開33項像擠牙膏一樣 一次擠一點點 一次擠一點點因為沒有全品項的補助因為我們是高專業的個性"},{"start":8600.387,"end":8620.643,"text":"我先講 我不曉得你的專業依據是什麼啦反正台南嘉義就是7月7號就公告全品項了我們到目前為止才慢慢一點一點的公告受災的農民非常大的困擾 困擾是什麼我就問你 落花生的公告日期申請區域跟申請期限你知道嗎7月10號是 然後咧 期限到什麼時候"},{"start":8624.127,"end":8646.468,"text":"所謂期限是什麼意思就是你報的那個期限啊沒有 10天啊然後我們也特別問了雲林縣政府我講給你聽好了申請的區域是全縣然後第四波公告第四波7月10號公告期限到7月29號然後那N3的公告日期申請區域申請期限的7月9號那他的申請區域呢"},{"start":8650.655,"end":8672.529,"text":"西螺二輪赤銅是然後呢然後他期限到什麼時候所謂的期限就是公告受理期限是10天嘛他現在受理的期限是到7月23號那我問你啊那是有再延長5天是那我問你啊土庫的芹菜可以申請嗎什麼土庫的芹菜可以申請嗎"},{"start":8673.8,"end":8677.823,"text":"很抱歉喔 因為所以嘛 我現在就告訴你說這就是農民的現況了就是部長你會錯亂 他們也會錯亂你覺得每一個農民都跟他進幾行嗎他們可能進三行 進四行你每一個申請的時程公告時程都不一樣區域也不一樣"},{"start":8694.033,"end":8703.304,"text":"你如果是 你是部長而且你還是這一方面的專家你可能頭腦都比他們清楚很多你知道我們現在面臨的可能都是六十歲 七十歲 八十歲的農民他覺得幾天他就補不清楚啦你要叫他補兩天 補三天每天都不一樣是要怎麼補啦"},{"start":8712.594,"end":8725.703,"text":"我跟委員報告不要大聲喔因為我這個人我是不想對你大聲我希望你拿出你的專業我會回應喔我希望拿出你的同理心我告訴你所有的災害不可能在同一天全部公告那你現在告訴我說7月7號就公告全品項的嘉義跟台南"},{"start":8731.067,"end":8749.102,"text":"那個是因為當時的風速嘛我拜託你要拿出你就把它訂定一個標準以後我就尊重你的標準你不要現在沒有標準你告訴我說就是颱風的路徑什麼的我跟委員報告齁所有的天然擦害擦害的樣態有非常多二輪的芹菜可以申請嗎"},{"start":8750.831,"end":8761.166,"text":"到什麼時候輪背的芹菜可以申請嗎到什麼時候就光你 你就搞不清楚了這麼雜亂分批次公告的訊息請問品項又這麼多各個鄉鎮的我講完就跟你講"},{"start":8767.975,"end":8771.397,"text":"各個品項這麼多不同的鄉鎮時間都不同你要這些農民怎麼因應品項申請然後擺擺種讓我們的農民無所依據農民他整理田裡面的損失就已經來不及了所以部長"},{"start":8785.106,"end":8789.529,"text":"我現在 我不是要對你大聲 我也沒必要對你大聲我是希望你要有同理心現在我們不是在爭對或錯或者是說 你有沒有開全品項我現在是在告訴你說 我們受損這麼嚴重你剛剛就講了 你公告了93項的這個開放品項98項你看都快要破百了"},{"start":8811.525,"end":8830.168,"text":"都快要破百了那你為什麼要堅持說沒有辦法全品項呢你的堅持是什麼你可以告訴本席說你農業部專業的評斷是專業在哪一個部分上說我們雲林縣沒有辦法開全品項好我可以回答了我第一個跟委員報告"},{"start":8831.536,"end":8853.428,"text":"就是因為有同理心我才用主動公告的方式來處理而不是由縣市政府去掀開這第一點第二點就是說你一直說那麼多品項我記不起來那麼多品項我的確是沒辦法每一個縣市哪一個區域開哪一個品項我的確沒辦法百分之百了解但是我的相關的同仁會了解你沒辦法他們也沒辦法"},{"start":8853.888,"end":8867.952,"text":"相對的縣市政府我們透過公告這個天然災害不是今天才第一次發生過去很多發生了而且你也知道天然災害的樣態是不一樣的我不可能在第一時間全部公布所以我才告訴你說你要有一個大範圍的規範就好像你當初你說農業這個產值千分之五"},{"start":8876.135,"end":8899.651,"text":"那大家都可以算嘛你說十級陣風以上這個就是統一的嘛你可不可以有一個統一的標準你如果有一個統一的標準我想喔大家都心服口服你知道嗎你現在告訴我說這些統一的標準你都取消了你要開始用專家會議取代那你也要告訴我說你專家會議的依據是什麼我現在只是想要為我們雲林縣的農民來請命啦就是說希望未來颱風來襲你有一個"},{"start":8906.856,"end":8928.178,"text":"統一的標準統一的標準你不要讓人家有欠奉插針的機會說你颱風來了你還分顏色或者是大小吧因為受苦的這些基層最努力的農民他不能夠理解啊那最後我想要講一下就是這個水稻保險其實水稻保險大家都努力了好多年那其實呢"},{"start":8928.999,"end":8932.743,"text":"很多農民他現在就在講啊雖然這一次這一次我必須要講你們主動啟動災害股的這個收災害股我覺得是值得讚許的包括說青園補助5.5萬等等這些都是積極主動的作為我覺得是正向的正面的但我也必須要講"},{"start":8949.502,"end":8960.677,"text":"你應該還是要啟動要不你就現金救助要不你就是水稻保險就好像去年花東的二期做應該讓他們能夠有二則一的機會啊"},{"start":8962.54,"end":8983.628,"text":"我跟委員報告因為在那個當下其實雲林已經收穫了將近90%所以剩下10%所以我沒有辦法同時開放所以我用災害股去處理那後續的保險還是會平割如果說他達到災損的情況之下他還是可以得到理賠"},{"start":8985.009,"end":9013.912,"text":"所以現在的意思就是說假設他已經交了災害股假設他已經交了災害股但是他算起來還是損失20%以下他還是可以得到他的保險對就是跟我們農業保險的部分如果說我們最後的產量區域產量如果低於20%的時候那什麼時候會算出說他的區域產量是少於20%要全部收割完以後的一個月之內我們就會公告那所以假設目前已經全部收割完了"},{"start":9014.893,"end":9039.92,"text":"現在還有大概七成沒有百分之七左右沒有收 百分之七左右這其實也快收完了差不多在十天以內應該就收完了吧收完以後我們就會統計我跟委員報告齁災害股是一件事情是我們的救助但是農業保險還是它的本如果農業保險本身如果達到理肥標準我們照樣理肥不會因為你有收穫股就可以所以那這個區域怎麼公告呢什麼時候你說一個月後嗎我剛才說就是"},{"start":9042.641,"end":9070.834,"text":"該地區全部沒有全部收完以後的一個月之內我們就會公告好我希望可以禁訴應該是要禁訴因為過去他們都覺得說好像是要收割二三個月之後才能夠得到理賠好不好一個月禁訴的來公告那最後呢我想我也不要占委員會太多時間因為已經超出時間了那最後我還是要講就是有關於第二預備金的事情假設"},{"start":9072.074,"end":9095.11,"text":"部長現在已經覺得未來有可能動用你一定要儘速開始準備因為立法院包括我們經濟委員會絕對會支持也絕對不會擋你使用第二預備金所以呢我希望說為了農民為了災民我們都不要意氣用事然後要趕快解決問題那所以如果你認為可能會不夠你要趕快儘速送來趕快來審議千萬不要影響到未來的救災這樣好不好"},{"start":9100.213,"end":9106.559,"text":"我想所有的天然災害就是我們第一優先的那不管經費怎麼樣我們也會來努力同樣的就是說我是用專業的角度去承受事實你的專業 我跟你說你的專業必須要變成一個標準可以嗎你可以把你全品項免限刊的標準把它訂定出來"},{"start":9120.013,"end":9132.626,"text":"讓大家不要以後再在這個台上在爭議這種浪費時間的事情好嗎可以嗎我相信你的專業我相信你的專業好不好你把它白紙黑字寫下來未來我們就照著這個標準下去爭取好不好好辛苦了謝謝好謝謝現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答"},{"start":9156.495,"end":9164.903,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部部長跟我們台電的董事長鄭董事長董事長好部長好那部長這一次這一個颱風那"},{"start":9178.496,"end":9184.262,"text":"大概我的選區是最重的災區啦但是我們這邊台電的斷桿攔腰斷掉的這些電線桿超過1400根1450幾所以以斷桿的數量來說我們甚至比台南還多"},{"start":9195.214,"end":9214.23,"text":"那如果以停電的戶數來說,因為台電在嘉義是嘉義區處嘛,所以我們單市嘉義就有25萬戶的停電嘉義市有10萬戶,加克萊斯35萬戶停電的量能是需要被修復的,這個也是在以單一區處來說也是全國居冠"},{"start":9215.302,"end":9237.778,"text":"所以我也是覺得在這一次的這個斷桿造成的這樣停電的一個狀況我覺得我們應該是學到了很多SOP我記得我第三天的時候當署長曾董事長打給我那打給我他跟我反映了一件事情就是說台電的很多的工班事實上他們在清理這些斷桿"},{"start":9238.999,"end":9252.899,"text":"花了太多的時間所以我去電話中我就跟董事長那達成一個默契就是由我這邊來調用民間的一些大型機具包括怪獸啦包括夾娃車啦我去斷桿移除"},{"start":9256.044,"end":9276.426,"text":"讓台電專業可以附電可以拉電線桿的台電人員專心去附電我們來移除電線桿所以在這樣的一個默契之下事實上整個進度是推進很多但是在於處理這個電線桿的時候我們也是遇到障礙遇到什麼障礙就是我們的人不敢去把機器電池關上"},{"start":9279.668,"end":9299.221,"text":"所以我們後來還是要請台電再派出一組叫做真空油壓檢測先去把這個這個路障的一個排除但是所以這個事實上都是一個我從這裡學到的一些經驗那當然我們這後來再加速了整個"},{"start":9300.282,"end":9318.141,"text":"台電的附電過程這個加速的過程我看到事實上台電的員工包括外包商的員工每天都嚴重的超時工作所以後來在一煮發生了這個台電的員工他可能過於疲勞然後有一些在附電應該要注意的狀況可能"},{"start":9321.105,"end":9342.106,"text":"他沒有確認好事實上那個高壓電是有電的然後去觸摸到高壓電然後造成他現在還是昏迷的狀況所以這件事我們真的很感厚所以我想要跟部長跟總董事長來反映的就是說這次這裡台電附電的人來協助附電的人這麼辛苦"},{"start":9342.907,"end":9372.267,"text":"每天都這樣超時的工作事實上他們每天付出的都遠超於說這段時間他們可能有加班的一些狀況都遠超過了啦所以我是覺得這個應該要列一個專案獎金那來給不管是台電我們正職來協助復電的或者是這一些外包的一些實際來參與復電的那應該要編一條專案獎金然後要來感謝他們可以在10天尤其我昨天又看到一個新聞說"},{"start":9373.968,"end":9397.281,"text":"我們嘉義最後以護平生用電也完成復電看到新聞都覺得很高興也很感謝可是我覺得感謝之餘我們應該要有具體的作為讓這一些來協助復電的人會覺得說他們替國家替我們南部地區來復電是有一定的一些大家對他們的一些表示的好不好"},{"start":9398.701,"end":9420.869,"text":"是謝謝委員我想這一次也讓委員幫助很多那我們台電在復電的這個過程裡面單獨靠台電我們自己的專業的人是不夠的所以我在這個整個的救災的過程裡面也跟這個台電的同仁一起開會那我們也一直想怎麼樣讓我們的國人能夠早一天有電"},{"start":9422.009,"end":9429.737,"text":"那事實上台電為什麼一直到最後比較晚復電我們到現場去看大概就可以了解大部分"},{"start":9430.717,"end":9455.33,"text":"末端的這些支線的部分其實都是要經過非常大的空曠的餘溫這個電都是在洋廠小徑上面電條都在那裡 燈在那裡所以在附電很困難附電的難度太高了昨天我也去新聞的那個我知道"},{"start":9456.05,"end":9483.747,"text":"那個我一看啦那個場子106個這個足球場那麼大那個你說業者 我去問業者業者說他要清兩個月我說這個兩個月大概太久了所以我們昨天也開會一直討論討論也藝足鄉的鄉長也跳出來跟我們講我們終於有把握應該在月底之前我們就可以努力把它這個處理完"},{"start":9485.584,"end":9496.074,"text":"這一個是非常難 那個地方主要是沒有車樓我們的舊港府車都大隻但是那個路線小條 那個吊車外景不知道有車啦不知道有車就無法去處理那些電條的關係所以這邊比較抱歉對港府的"},{"start":9510.147,"end":9526.913,"text":"國人啊,我們護電有比較慢,不過這個給我們一個新的核心就是說以後我們可以用這個上電的部分,不一定是台電先去上電我們可以用其他的方法,比如說用這個儲能櫃或者是我們調這個這個發電機,升來給這個這個我們的個人,他需要,他可以"},{"start":9534.947,"end":9562.452,"text":"可以有水有這個通行因為沒電子這些都沒有嘛所以這是我們最大的學習啦好部長我覺得這個當然是未來我們要怎麼做啦不然我剛才說的就是說這次台電的復電他們是有功的是我希望不定日第一我們會一定會以後這個我們也會改善啦但是對這一次他們願因為他也很急啦因為當年超時"},{"start":9563.832,"end":9585.186,"text":"超時我們也跟他講說這個我們還是要按照這個標準來請他們休息但是他講說 哎呀 署長他們心裡想要趕快復健所以事實上雖然超時 可是你看面對那麼多鄉親大家鄉親看到他們來就打電話給大家說我店要收尾孫來那個是人的心態 所以他們主人都會假面很多時間"},{"start":9586.387,"end":9615.055,"text":"體力的負荷是真的是非常大這個我們這一次也會深刻的檢討當然也謝謝委員我們一定會加重來對他們給他們一些這個一個比較能夠持平的獎勵啦這個獎勵一定是到過去了好 那先讓我們交通部交通部次長就來那我們部長可以經濟部可以先回 台電請先回"},{"start":9622.553,"end":9645.807,"text":"市長這一次的風災還是有看出事實上交通部包括我覺得你們要跟速發部然後要跟NCC要檢討因為就是這次風災來然後電費條等於所以很多你們附掛在電感上的那些電信公司的纜線也一併的壞掉然後很多機器台也直接摧毀了所以信號是不好的"},{"start":9646.727,"end":9660.432,"text":"那這個大家也都可以理解所以你們也出動了很多叫做行動基地台行動基地台基本上就是靠低軌衛星嘛但是低軌衛星卻在前三天發揮不了作用為什麼 雲層太厚"},{"start":9662.332,"end":9680.713,"text":"打不上去所以連低軌衛星也派不出用場所以很多作戰指揮中心包括各地的公所包括台電在地方的一些一個修繕點的哇 電費都沒辦法這件事情凸顯的是說我們電信設備的整體的韌性是不足的"},{"start":9681.333,"end":9697.312,"text":"所以部長這件事是需要檢討的是 我跟委員報告 這一部分當然現在國家有關通訊的部分是由NCC或蘇華部在處理或是剛才講到的這種低軌衛星等等是他們在協調調度"},{"start":9698.573,"end":9720.055,"text":"那這一部分呢我想我們會來跟他們再來看我覺得你們再檢討一下啦好不好這件事因為我在前三天的時候我看到很多公所他們儘管已經派了行動基地車在外面他們還是一樣沒有訊號就是標準說技術上還是有很多遇到天然情況不同的時候遇到瓶頸"},{"start":9721.056,"end":9737.761,"text":"連行動基地車來了也沒有用基地台的恢復當然更是礦日廢死所以這件事情是需要被檢討的是 我們已經有發現在災害來臨的時候電的恢復跟通訊是一個很重要的這兩件事都很重要好不好所以這個要來 我最後再請農業部長陳部長次長先回"},{"start":9743.905,"end":9758.952,"text":"喂吼部長吼部長事實上吼在我這邊的數據啦在7月18號5點為止吼全國的農損啦台南目前是第一名啦對就45%嘉義縣是第二名啦是7億多是"},{"start":9759.632,"end":9784.819,"text":"是第二名 佔了20幾%所以當然剛剛有不同委員去主張台南的狀況但是不要因此說我們嘉義的農損沒有他們嚴重我們也是好嚴重我們嘉義至少是在7月18的時候我們一直都是整體的災損是第二 排名第二目前看起來也還是第二嚴重的啦所以嘉義這一次確實有很大的農損那而且剛剛事實上你在講這個第二預備金的狀況"},{"start":9786.579,"end":9808.184,"text":"以前第二預備金大概跟行政院報合訂就有了未來可能還要經過立法院同意所以剛才瑪麗說的可能要對因為被砍了這個九千萬未來我們第二預備金的調動會出現障礙的時候我們應該預作準備這件事所以部長我們應該要先這個要去正視一下我想趁這個機會再次跟委員說明其實我們歷次的說明"},{"start":9809.384,"end":9837.623,"text":"過往我們的委員會包括院會都不會針對我們那個公務撥補基金的這個費用因為公務撥補基金一旦任何的刪減的時候那基金本身的預算就不能動之二倍金那同樣的因為基金我們每一年基金都會超支並決算但是一個非常重要的超支並決算也是要報非常多的程序所以過往有很多二倍金可以第一時間就能夠"},{"start":9839.344,"end":9855.912,"text":"動用到育二倍金啦所以今年想像上因為今年才到7月會比較困擾會有困擾這個我覺得要預作準備啦好不好那我要跟部長講因為我們這一次不斷的對我們很多農民去跟他說我們這一次的對他們的一個幫忙勒我們會從寬從簡從素"},{"start":9859.413,"end":9881.955,"text":"有這些都告訴他們 但是我也是聽到很多心聲 比方比方就是說 我們現在有很多那種畜牧業就是說他起家 起家他還是現代化 他有建築執照現代化的 他當然就可以去申請我們相對應的補助但是有一些畜牧業 他是傳統的家庭 所以他們只有"},{"start":9882.575,"end":9897.992,"text":"過去的叫做續養的一個許可他們並沒有這樣的一個死罩那他們會不會被排除於在這一次他們也是同樣處定都沒了然後裡面的雞也都死掉了那這個有辦法去拿到"},{"start":9898.633,"end":9916.472,"text":"我跟委員說明包括我們的謝朝偉也非常關心畜牧業的部分那畜牧業基本上因為依天然災害救助辦法裡面都必須要合法的所以在現在的規定是沒辦法但是我們用補助的角度去處理所以補助的時候就沒有去區分它"},{"start":9917.253,"end":9934.724,"text":"他的一個過往是不是有登記或沒登記而且我們把畜牧業的這些將屋頂吹掉的大家重建的時候用五層拉到八層那其實五層拉到八層的時候其實某個角度來看的話部長你的意思是說你用補助的角度來來替代救助"},{"start":9937.485,"end":9958.886,"text":"所以他們就有辦法 雖然說他們可能是比較老式的我們也希望趁這個機會把老式的這些東西能夠更新那更新的部分從原來的五成變成八成那不夠的部分他還可以用那個貸款的方式來處理所以這樣的話 農民在資金上的需求就不會那麼緊張"},{"start":9960.268,"end":9976.842,"text":"市長部長這有千百項 很多項 我就說一項啦像比方說啦我們現在針對很多農業的部分都有補助啦但是對農企業這一塊感覺上就會有一些不足那我要舉的例子就是說 它還是要做市長的"},{"start":9978.183,"end":10005.198,"text":"啊他一樣喔,他的治療,像他一樣,他的治療,燙全部都吹黑了所以他的治療,也都沒有啊,也都泡了水啊所以基本上也都要移除,所以移除也困難那後續上,在申請補助的時候,他們也會說,欸你看那一些道股的倉庫,公糧委託倉庫有補助啊像他們做飼料的卻沒有所以又會有一些落差存在部長這個部分是不是,我們可不可以再盤一下"},{"start":10006.779,"end":10025.973,"text":"對 謝謝委員的關心那農企業是這一次我特別去處理的因為我一直認為農企業特別是跟一級生產有關的農企業他其實是跟農民有高度的這些所謂的關聯或者是他的夥伴關係所以我這一次特別把農企業的"},{"start":10027.214,"end":10053.846,"text":"過往不補助的變成這次有補助50%那以蘭花來講因為蘭花現在是提出來比較多的蘭花的強固型溫室過往是沒補助的那現在可以得到50%的補助最高是900萬那您所說的這些飼料種或其他的如果他的企業還有很多深度的其他的產品跟農業無關的那很抱歉因為他是多角化經營我沒辦法處理但是我們鎖定在他們農業的這一塊"},{"start":10056.187,"end":10078.908,"text":"如果是小型因為大型的這些飼料廠他都有他的母公司有沒有還有很多包括他的加工產品啊這個就很難但是如果是小型的這些飼料廠的時候那我們可以來規劃我可以請畜牧師來盤點一下好那這部分我們再盤點再來檢討一下原則上就是跟一級生產有關的農企業我們會盡量來協助好那因為朝偉在吹啦"},{"start":10079.528,"end":10094.66,"text":"我直接講給內政部聽啦剛剛一直在講說這個修屋頂喔事實上你不管國軍或替代役他們都不會修屋頂啦他們不是修屋頂的專業所以你們應該要去跟勞動部去跟他們檢討啦有沒有辦法讓那一些移工"},{"start":10096.001,"end":10116.914,"text":"由工程界的移工讓他們可以讓這些移工來協助修屋頂因為現在欠工所以欠工的部分你在跟工程界的移工來溝通替代於不會修屋頂你叫他一堆人去那裡大家也是不知道一定都會要求彭博要求彭博沒辦法徹底解決這是第一個第二個欠了"},{"start":10117.754,"end":10124.9,"text":"因為我們現在 我不知道現在台灣要有新產傳統三合院那種的蝦皮嗎 不知道看起來這麼無聊 你如果傳統的蝦皮當然是比較單純 不然那些也都棄價了啦不然欠了 欠工這個事情 你沒辦法用國軍跟替代役來他們就是不會 沒有這個專業誰敢去修啊 好不好這個要趕快想辦法 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":10144.756,"end":10147.517,"text":"我們現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長郭部長還是陳部長郭部長委員好"},{"start":10172.25,"end":10173.471,"text":"我們努力的程度就是100分"},{"start":10198.055,"end":10225.743,"text":"努力的程度100分就民眾的感受跟目前復健的情況呢我們到現在所有的電都已經復電了所有水第二天我們就水就倒了那因為這個災情超過這個我們想像的過去的經驗這120年來第一次有這麼大從南到北的這個颱風進到嘉南平原然後這整個吹過去17級風造成的"},{"start":10228.064,"end":10257.464,"text":"好這些原因大家都知道但是我們是結果論看民眾大家的心聲我聽到剛剛參議委員還在說那些屋頂政府應該要有事權統一一站式的聯繫窗口這個不是只有你經濟部因為經濟部你所管的是電力的部分那其他的部分政府應該要橫向的聯繫因為我們看到政府就只有一個"},{"start":10258.164,"end":10276.655,"text":"民眾到目前為止的痛苦我相信大家都感同身受所以我們繼續來討論 也就是我希望大家要看到 聽到人民的心聲我認為在這一次的災損 淹水以及停電 連外道路 電訊中斷等這些事件我認為政府在橫向的聯繫當中並不完美並不完整"},{"start":10284.42,"end":10285.621,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下我還有媒體認為在整個災區的資訊它是混亂的資源欠缺一個統籌所以在地區方面斷電斷訊還拖很久"},{"start":10299.68,"end":10314.196,"text":"有人甚至爬到屋頂上面要維修屋頂而上命我們真的很難過更有養護中心的長輩一度陷入困境這是大家非常緊張一旦"},{"start":10316.338,"end":10326.041,"text":"我們碰到國家的重大災難的時候大家不免苛責是應該要團結一致橫向聯繫這是本席從政以來我一再一再的堅持所以我們看到政府告訴我們要加強韌性要人民來配合但是在這一次的風態當中整個中央政府我認為反應是有遲緩的我們看到總統下鄉去講話"},{"start":10345.646,"end":10365.276,"text":"但是我沒有看到一個整合救災的功能我認為只要國家在重大災害的時候沒有辦法讓我們的災民安心沒有辦法去保護人民甚至沒有辦法迅速的重建在這樣的情況之下連報導我看到報導台南人都說政府"},{"start":10371.319,"end":10378.705,"text":"這讓人非常非常的憂心所以我要跟您討論的是我們經濟部我們這個主管是電力在這一次的電力損失光光電線桿倒掉了三千多隻數量之大讓我們就沉入剛剛部長你所說的從來沒有想到這麼大"},{"start":10396.058,"end":10401.322,"text":"那麼電線斷掉的也將近要將近7000條這樣重大的一個挑戰我們要怎麼樣去應對受災的災戶有100萬戶以上那在這樣情況之下因為本席來自台中我們當時在20幾年前我們經歷過了921這一些的災難我一看我都要掉淚了我都要掉淚了所以我希望的"},{"start":10424.056,"end":10435.964,"text":"大家應該團結一致我們來檢討怎麼樣可以讓災民更加的迅速讓災民可以安心這是我們要的所以我在這邊也要特別的強調台電的員工非常非常的辛苦那麼我們要怎麼樣去協助他們也就是我們針對於在災前的預估能力跟災後的能力配別"},{"start":10454.656,"end":10477.764,"text":"部長 我們台電員工也有一個人要負責好幾區他怎麼做得來這是政府要協助我們台電的員工甚至外圍的人員都全力出動但是在整個橫向的一個整理我們究竟要怎麼樣去精進所以本席要請教在這邊應變的能量"},{"start":10482.506,"end":10506.432,"text":"我們是否足夠我們是不是還有更精進的方案請教部長是 報告委員謝謝你讓我們這個台電的辛苦能夠讓大家都了解大家都很清楚我們都很感恩你要怎麼樣去協助這一次的災難我想你回想過去你的經驗921大地震的時候你知道你的台中有多久才復電嗎"},{"start":10508.086,"end":10515.309,"text":"市長本期不同意你如此的說法你不是說去做比較你這麼回答是撕裂我們的傷口本期絕對不同意本期是請教我們部件的能力夠不夠我們可以怎麼樣精進但是你剛才在講我這一次陪總統一共跑了12個災區"},{"start":10534.236,"end":10554.629,"text":"我們都非常的清楚所有的部會統統動起來在做但是你在看媒體的報導非常的偏頗那你要告訴媒體啊你一個政府你要讓升級的情況去顯現啊剛才你是在引述媒體的報導嘛所以我現在在跟你報告那你要給媒體請媒體給你澄清啊我現在報告委員我們現在談本是要跟你討論的我來自"},{"start":10562.383,"end":10566.865,"text":"經歷過921我很難過我看到這樣重大災情我們應該要團結這是我說的我們必須要怎麼樣可以進去我說台電的人工一個人要副長好幾區你到底你的復健能力夠不夠我們要怎麼樣協助他你怎麼可以來做一個比較什麼什麼時候復健我告訴你"},{"start":10584.711,"end":10592.477,"text":"我只是告訴你 我們有在努力我們非常的努力才有今天可以在10天裡完全復電報告委員 我們是非要努力所以本席請教 我們理性討論 部長我們理性討論 部長我們如本 誰說你怎麼樣本席請問你的 你有怎樣回答"},{"start":10611.651,"end":10614.053,"text":"我們要怎麼樣協助台電 你的部件能力夠不夠 我請問夠不夠夠不夠我當然會生氣 你把一個災難跟一個災難去對比"},{"start":10628.525,"end":10641.976,"text":"不是我只是引述你剛才所講的話來做對比如果這件事情勾起你這個不好的感覺我可以跟你道歉但是我回答你的問題請你回答本席的問題看到國家重大災難我們的政府你給台電的保健都不夠我們可以怎麼樣進去我非常禮貌的請問你"},{"start":10655.629,"end":10673.585,"text":"我非常禮貌的請問你 我們是不是有精進方案我們當然有精進 我在跟你報告我們有沒有精進的方案 有需不需要精進我們當然有精進的方案 需要不需要精進報告委員 我在第五天就指示所有的經濟部的同仁"},{"start":10675.233,"end":10702.581,"text":"你應該在災區的人通通可以直接請假去幫助這個復健也就是說光靠原來的這個處理因為台電要復健所以您這麼回答也就是說我們碰到重量的災難因為台電的復健是不足的我們要精進嘛 對不對所以我們考慮的非常的多我們在不斷的檢討不斷的提出不斷的精進處理方法"},{"start":10705.302,"end":10719.395,"text":"因為我們不希望碰到重大災難 但是我們碰到了碰到了就是誠如你剛才說的是給我們一個新的學習這個新的學習 我剛剛坐在那邊聽到你回答的新的學習 我對你滿心的信心啊"},{"start":10720.325,"end":10733.271,"text":"所以我們應該碰到重大的災難我們要怎麼樣讓國人更加的安心在整個流程SOP流程我們要怎麼做民眾碰到的問題我沒有電我去找誰我們的里長我要去找誰我們協助的人員我要在當地有怎麼樣的一個聯繫這些都是環環相扣所以我號稱我也建議政府應該要有一正式的聯繫窗口"},{"start":10747.277,"end":10760.023,"text":"讓民眾非常的清楚讓他們在困難當中風暴當中不要再害怕這是政府最基本的責任嘛對不對報告委員您剛才所說的我們都在做"},{"start":10761.405,"end":10790.24,"text":"非常好我們都有相同謝謝你一句非常好針對於中央部會資訊的整合跟這一次的樣態本身認為有津津的空間我具體建議民眾是我們的氏命啦北市是我們的氏命啦一個國家沒有人民就沒有了啦所以我非常的希望誠意建議我們應該中央政府要友誼戰士的聯繫窗口各部會橫向的聯繫要好好的聯想"},{"start":10791.5,"end":10798.789,"text":"這是我衷心非常感同身受的一個說法我希望你們可以接受而且可以去精進那接下來本席要再跟你討論關稅的問題"},{"start":10809.852,"end":10832.757,"text":"關稅談判未定讓人民也害怕因為我相信你非常的努力我們碰到了國際級剛剛是碰到了天災現在我們碰到了國際級的一個關稅議題本席跟你討論過了很多次你來自於產業界應該更加的了解"},{"start":10834.357,"end":10856.802,"text":"產業界的一個恐慌所以本席要告訴你現在我們全國的產業跟民生他非常非常關心的就是暫緩期這個暫緩期快要到了8月1號以前我們談判小組 談判班都非常努力在做我說了國家有事我們全國應該要全體"},{"start":10859.362,"end":10887.616,"text":"團結一次這是我一再堅持的也一再的論述所以本席要請教8月1號之前我們會有結果嗎我們現在仍然在談判中所以報告委員我們希望在8月1號以前能夠把這個結果談出來不過美國因為他們一次要跟180個國家來談他們有一些這個他們自己也認為"},{"start":10889.297,"end":10907.568,"text":"這個8月1號如果沒有辦法談完的他會持續再往後移但是我們現在在爭取在8月1號之前就可以把一個好的結果談出來所以我們這整個的談判的團隊就像這個委員您所講的我們都"},{"start":10908.863,"end":10922.214,"text":"給他們高度的祝福他們非常的努力也掌握非常多的情勢我們希望能夠談出一個好的結果但是我如果解讀請部長聽聽看也就是說因為他的暫緩期到7月底那大家產業界會緊張所以照如果剛才的說法就是說8月1號以前我們希望可以有結果但是不一定我可以這麼解讀嗎"},{"start":10936.55,"end":10963.88,"text":"我們現在這個以目前來講就是說我們就是盡全力在8月1號之前把它談妥希望把它談妥但是還是未定未定是因為是由美國決定的對對對所以我們還是希望加油因為之所以本席一定要請教部長這個議題產業界都很緊張因為產業界也會連貫到我們整個民生所以在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教部長"},{"start":10964.58,"end":10968.683,"text":"因為相關的關稅風暴對於我們出口導向的我們會帶來很大的重擊我想你也非常的憂心也非常努力但是產業界一邊現在他是先喊停來鼓聲但是他們也希望能夠有一個方向但最重要的我們還有一個匯率問題"},{"start":10984.995,"end":10988.798,"text":"所以雙會讓我們很緊張很緊張但是政府呢到目前為止我只看到我們提出了930億來協助來補助但到這一段時間我們很久沒有聽到部長您告訴我們產業界到底我們現在的走向是如何"},{"start":11002.828,"end":11002.928,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":11032.748,"end":11050.617,"text":"是謝謝委員的這個垂訊那在這個匯率的部分我們非常清楚所以我們在上個禮拜我們這個經濟部有開一個這個記者會那麼也跟大家說明我們中小企業署"},{"start":11051.772,"end":11059.639,"text":"我們會幫助這些企業提出因應會計的做法因應的方案可以說的讓我們的產業界可以了解因為本席舉例日本的做法隨時隨時告訴他的產業告訴他的人民我們希望預計可以怎麼做讓人民安心讓產業安心"},{"start":11076.672,"end":11099.397,"text":"這個怎麼樣子去做這個遠區外匯怎麼樣子做這個選擇權但是因為他們是規模比較小所以他們也不太會去做這個財務所以要政府協助嘛所以報告委員我們現在都跟銀行還在談希望他們能夠提出來一個package就是一個這個怎麼講套餐式的商品然後讓"},{"start":11100.797,"end":11104.539,"text":"企業他今天可以安心的去報價然後他買到穩定的這個匯率所以我們都在幫助他們讓他們不會有太大的這個不要認為是被突襲有的方向就跟社會大眾說明"},{"start":11120.106,"end":11125.027,"text":"八大工股 航庫啊都會來協助中小企業來避險好 加油那部長 本席要在這邊請教接下來談判當中您之前告訴我們說會分年兩千億的美金的擴大對美採購是不是也納入這一次我們的談判的內容之一跟另外一個阿斯嘉我們買能源幾乎是佔他們的三成這兩項是不是列入在"},{"start":11148.894,"end":11175.126,"text":"我們這一次談判的範圍之內呢我們現在是不是來這個這個遊園因為這個阿拉斯加的這個天然氣是一個非常好的一個產品但是我們也是綜合考量綜合考量那美國他們會根據我們的對美國的投資然後對美國讓美國再度偉大我想他們美國我們在這個"},{"start":11176.406,"end":11199.261,"text":"這一段過程裡面那看美國跟其他的國家談判跟我們的談判美國似乎對如何讓美國再度偉大這個命題呢他們是非常的這個關注然後你美國再度偉大你要投資的很多要投資的很多我們必須要衡量自己的這個有沒有這些有沒有這種投資的必要"},{"start":11199.781,"end":11217.953,"text":"第一個要考慮有沒有必要性嘛第二個我投資這個是不是長遠的這個做法或者是短期的交易這一個部分我相信我們的談判小組都非常的清楚好 所以換句話說這兩項也納入在我們談判小組的考量之因子之一"},{"start":11218.473,"end":11230.163,"text":"是嗎我們有建議啦那是不是他們考量這一碗因為最後本席要告訴您也就是大家務必要團結對外這個談判非常的重要因為我們還有一個貿易擴張法美國透過貿易擴張法的232條其中我們八成"},{"start":11238.65,"end":11250.233,"text":"出口的都會在這裡面 他們可以挑特定的產品 他們也可以例外的來作為他們的關稅的一個爬線筒所以在這種情況之下 本席要請教IC產品的部分非常的重要請教我們都聽到部長您告訴我們目前的談判是順利的 是有建設性的一個進展"},{"start":11261.696,"end":11262.756,"text":"也就是說在232的這個條款裡頭我們是不是也都非常嚴肅的在看待這些項目也就包括了我們的愛奇產品包括了半導體顯示器是不是還是一樣可以達到我們說的關稅豁免權"},{"start":11281.242,"end":11296.434,"text":"請做說明報告委員我們現在因為台灣我們在這個232這個包含了半導體供應鏈這些產品其實對美國來講是非常非常重要那美方也了解大概美方他們統計大概70%他都不支持他們這個他們自己啦這就是對美國來說"},{"start":11303.88,"end":11327.608,"text":"但是還有30%啊 所以我們還是要保護我們自己啊朝這個方向啊我們在跟美國那邊說明我們對他們的幫助有多大我們跟美國聯合起來台美合作我相信對我們整個在這個市場上面不管在行銷或者在製造上面都非常具有優勢這一點我們在努力中"},{"start":11328.528,"end":11335.45,"text":"謝謝部長的努力我想最後一個結論也就是我希望大家面臨到這麼重大的國際級我們務必一定要讓我們的產業跟我們的民眾他有準備的機會他能夠了解方向在適度剛剛我說的你們可以說的範圍當然我也了解在談判的過程當中有很多不能說但是如果你們研判可以說因為"},{"start":11353.874,"end":11380.868,"text":"我們的暫緩期要到了讓我們的產業跟民生他們可以適度可以知道了解下一步他到底要怎麼避險下一步他到底要怎麼做才不會讓人民認為他永遠是在被突襲的我想這是我們政府必須要做的事項是 謝謝委員知道好 謝謝中午不休息那現在請陳超明委員做詢答"},{"start":11391.919,"end":11395.581,"text":"首先有請郭部長,你要喝一杯水嗎?好,部長,這次單於是颱風來時,剛好剛好漢光的日子剛好剛好我們全台灣大罷免我們如何如何去進行地安"},{"start":11417.591,"end":11426.831,"text":"但是,我這次看到,電話都幾百人倒下,說三成過去我替台電擔心,但是我發覺到"},{"start":11428.564,"end":11448.177,"text":"台電我們的總經理全員都一致我平安心想那個效率那個服務是做得非常好所以我今天覺得你這個部長官位能保的話要感謝董事長總經理全體台電人員的一個努力你承認這一點嗎"},{"start":11450.72,"end":11455.105,"text":"謝謝委員的提示我第三天我就去拜會這個工會我跟工會的理事長也拜託我也跟他謝謝"},{"start":11466.799,"end":11487.989,"text":"我們在每一次的颱風來臨以後我們工會的同仁都非常的努力所以我代表我都代表去跟他們致謝當然這個董事長 曾董事長你看他們面黃肌瘦 人有彩色都笑不出來我當時的現場我當時的現場四天而已"},{"start":11491.468,"end":11498.455,"text":"我現在要跟你討論一個問題,這三項規矩,我們的任性,我們地方國安的任性,這樣放太太少三項規矩,你沒想到有什麼新的技術,新的方法,你有沒有這個情形?因為這個裁判情形,"},{"start":11515.431,"end":11524.134,"text":"狀況會跟暫時的狀況一樣我們來想辦法要按照最快的恢復的一個速度這是一個考驗跟我們說 你在檢討說阿拜如何精進這點我希望你們來做一些報告去加強"},{"start":11530.456,"end":11551.965,"text":"是 報告 報告委員齁 我們有一個共識啦這邊說了 我也認為說我們台電一定要對所有的國營講第二天開始就要有電腦營營喔好 這樣有這個的覺醒就好但是我看你的報告 你們跟我說要地下化喔 要說的地下化頭就停我們要給你找一些地下化來簽署"},{"start":11553.746,"end":11572.878,"text":"拜託你啦,所有的報告無論如何之下,你要把說我如果電線桿一次三千支倒掉的話,我不敢講一天啦三天之內如何解決,這個方式技巧最重要啦你跟我說一天,你不信心喔?不是餒,我幫你報告,你聽我說啦"},{"start":11577.381,"end":11598.749,"text":"我不是說我們台電的電一天讓你用我是用發電機還是用我的儲能櫃我先送去你那個沒電的地方邊緣的我們那個電是要有主線主線道然後在旁邊有次線道再來有這個到最後的這個一段"},{"start":11599.409,"end":11617.102,"text":"所以要三大我沒有辦法 我只有那些人所以我都優先那比較難到現在你這樣在說這是一個方法但是不是一個一定很好你把一百多個電話條也你對保護一個保護商的公司加一百多個整個這個"},{"start":11619.324,"end":11627.766,"text":"團隊企業會不會欠工藥?不可能 我要跟委員報告我們做了很多增加的電條是都在產活路根本就工程車要去那裡做很困難所以要救電的時候 那個環境不是讓你一邊就救起來的我們要了解喔 我們不是這個都市或是大條路旁邊 我要調車去"},{"start":11648.483,"end":11663.797,"text":"整棟會掉下去你說不大條路 瀉條路也有瀉機 其實去研究一下那產花樓你現在說我給你出兩倍 我跟你說不一定會成啦因為你還是要送到你們的配電中心裡面將來我們會區域的區域智慧網路"},{"start":11669.323,"end":11672.849,"text":"區域智慧網路會來處理看你的表現我現在看我現在想到一個問題我們現在兩岸城市很緊張我看說"},{"start":11679.687,"end":11699.475,"text":"大陸那邊有一個叫做石墨彈它一發射的話就馬上把你停電了把你電完了你有沒有什麼應變的措施?這就是一個台灣啊我就是說你如果說我們比較正確你如果讓我們做光電我光電然後做儲能會我現在你講廢話你給我講光電對啦你講那個整個電廠要用光電來報報不夠啦明明平均啦啦我們"},{"start":11712.451,"end":11723.442,"text":"報告委員我在這個地方要澄清一件事情我在討論這個光電的事情我希望是可以用科技的用數字的用科學的方法來討論不要說用"},{"start":11727.446,"end":11750.154,"text":"這個這個這個 我跟你講 關電台在講多少你教學營 當然你考慮對 可以補充一部分 並不是完全補充我現在就是說讓他們 有齁 你的大電力 你跟關電台在研發有照明 有照明 那可以聰熟反正你們都很行啊 剛剛講陳委員跟你批評一下你們不夠努力 兩個就吵起來 我們要純坤的檢討"},{"start":11751.855,"end":11774.102,"text":"我沒有跟他吵起來,我只是在說明讓他能夠充分了解只是勾起他的這個...我們現在有一個經濟的大颱風要來了就是那個地方的關稅問題所以我們談的大概是20到25你們怕影響到大包圍案,你們都不講我感覺這有可能"},{"start":11776.531,"end":11791.538,"text":"大概我們現在談判不是很順利不過以執政黨民進黨個性有稍微進步了已經新聞都打出來功勞很大我不知道這到底你們談判的情形但是我看起來你也沒有笑容我看起來"},{"start":11792.478,"end":11813.474,"text":"官司的談判大概不怎麼順利按照我們台灣很重要我們是在美國啊我們可以說吃草擺在十幾名裡面應該要先講為什麼一直放到後面都不講是因為大概韓國跟日本一樣的25%韓國一樣的25%所以你們都不敢吃什麼"},{"start":11818.7,"end":11826.889,"text":"有沒有把這個消息掩蓋出來我們希望能夠談出一個有競爭力的一個關稅"},{"start":11828.959,"end":11849.697,"text":"日本跟韓國的25%也不是最後的一個關稅如果說今天日本跟韓國是25%是最後一個關稅那對我們來講我想我們從32%如果能夠談到這個25% 20%我們也是一個很高興的事情但是我們在講日本跟韓國他們的關稅"},{"start":11851.918,"end":11875.646,"text":"絕對不是25%我們要清楚這個川普的談判的模式模式我知道你現在一定這樣講當然在談判我們台灣到現在還沒有結果我看起來跟台灣跟日本韓國一樣我們都是順潮大概是20到25你們不敢講我還要再繼續的努力繼續的努力請問那個你是怎麼推論的你也稍微給我們加一下"},{"start":11879.167,"end":11898.638,"text":"你是怎麼去推論二十塊二十五塊因為啊 日本 韓國 臺灣這都大的一個生鈔國他們都臺灣的 臺灣還沒有臺灣還是我們有送台積電給他們 他們不好意思他們沒有嘛 到處一千六百五十億台幣那裡韓國跟日本都沒有 我只有一條"},{"start":11903.701,"end":11927.576,"text":"你就只要是美國 好 有氣氛我就可以很高的保護力有氣氛 有氣氛你現在要把我彈到10到15 這樣我順便搞最後是免關稅啦我比他們更厲害 比日本跟韓國更好的關稅好 好 你就要把我們那些談判小組拋出來跟我是沒有關聯的我只要有信心希望這個好會脫鉤出來我只要有信心跟台灣的經濟拉起來台灣的經濟拉起來就是我經濟不斷的進來"},{"start":11935.101,"end":11957.339,"text":"但是關稅很重要還有匯率很重要剛剛楊秋風委員講的是實際現在中小企業天天提心吊膽的剛剛也說明了非常清楚我們對這一世受到關稅可能衝擊的六大產業我們都可以不要推我夫人要折騙就好好了啦我給你一個好了啦好 請回座我再問問農業的陳部長陳部長"},{"start":11964.215,"end":11969.621,"text":"我再講幾件事,這次風災的時候我仔細看,你們的溫室、網室的帳篷"},{"start":11987.002,"end":12001.392,"text":"我感覺農業部臨來要有決心,颱風天來的時候每次一直補償,一直補償,補償到阿伯想不想教,你現在所有要蓋溫室的不管怎麼樣,都要剛過世的溫室的那一種,"},{"start":12008.644,"end":12011.767,"text":"我跟委員報告就是溫室有非常多的類型你如果說做業菜類利用剛夠的"},{"start":12024.057,"end":12039.702,"text":"溫室去種葉菜類那個成本就變得很高啦所以不同的樣他有不同的我講要成本會高嘛但是你一次又一次的補償後阿伯反省成本更高阿伯讓民眾、我們這裡的農民不會擔心我是在研究這個問題"},{"start":12041.142,"end":12048.226,"text":"風災來 天災來 雨再落天的話 誰都沒有辦法影響它你只有溫室熱去改善 風災來就出去不會倒 這是你的責任這叫做任性對 我跟委員報告 就是說這邊的風災因為它是晚上登陸那個風速變大不然如果白天的時候 農民會把那個塑膠布割破"},{"start":12065.555,"end":12083.248,"text":"那說到這個割破的話,它的那個風場的風力的效應就不會讓整個的溫室倒掉但是因為晚上的風它沒有辦法去處理好啦,偶爾曉得晚上風啊,人家就在說天有不錯風雨嘛那種最壞的打算,我都沒在,我們來的很好嘛"},{"start":12084.328,"end":12100.332,"text":"你不能說他晚上突然增加濕度,沒辦法把棚子的布去拆掉我覺得要建立不要一直再用補償的方式來寬容互相我絕對同意用這種方式好謝謝現在請邱志偉委員做詢答"},{"start":12123.619,"end":12151.248,"text":"謝謝主席這個對主席的尊重是我一向的原則所以上台資訊之前一定要先跟主席敬禮做任何的工作做任何職位素養很重要素養素養就是你有沒有適當的能力能夠勝任這個工作素養有三個部分的過程ASKattitude"},{"start":12151.946,"end":12178.099,"text":"Secure Knowledge為什麼A要放前面就Attitude做什麼工作 你得做這個國會議員Attitude很重要要尊重質詢的這個官員要尊重主席所以我上台之前一定要跟主席好好的敬個禮另外 我要遵守主席設定的時間所以我今天質詢時間就是6加2"},{"start":12179.793,"end":12182.914,"text":"是不是請經濟部郭部長我不是說我的素養很好那基本上我是按照ASK我素養應該不會差但是我覺得這個本院的委員有一些的素養有待加強"},{"start":12201.073,"end":12229.443,"text":"第一個問題啊大家都說什麼這個關稅的已經收到美國通知啊這個很多的訊息不時的搖曳就是說我們這個已經說到了就是不公布 我要等大罷免這是不是假訊息 部長我認為是假訊息我不知道這個訊息從哪裡來的有很多在網路上說已經公布了這個國安會都知道 總統也都知道就是要等大罷免不公布然後甚至說直接表明是25%又有媒體人說是32%"},{"start":12231.465,"end":12252.492,"text":"那如果是這樣子的話為什麼鄧麗君副院長還要今天去美國進行第四輪的談判呢第四輪談判針對其產地的問題跟美國有不同的意見你到底要用這個印尼模式還是用越南模式是十九加N還是這個一口價這個之後還要繼續討論如果已經確定收到美國的關稅通知書為什麼鄧麗君副院長還要去美國"},{"start":12257.253,"end":12277.911,"text":"所以這是謠言不公自破嘛很多人就相信這些網路的假訊息有些是刻意的有些是這個亂編的有些是要這個破壞政府的威信破壞民眾對這個政府的觀感政治目的那個部長您的看法呢是啊我認同委員的這個這樣的一個說法"},{"start":12281.329,"end":12308.151,"text":"對啊 所以你做小訊息 你知道有這些小訊息你就要去做做澄清 去嚴正的做一些更正我們也不知道這些訊息是從哪裡來的這個為什麼他們會有這樣的一個是網路上傳得到的都是這個偵測器的傳媒體或地基訊的傳媒體都說 啊已經決定了我們收到了 就是為了這個辦公室不公布這個一定要嚴正的去駁斥所以這部分再請"},{"start":12309.942,"end":12333.85,"text":"部長繼續努力啦,我想這個,我是樂觀期待好的啊,一定在最後才公布啦不要你先公布,你如果好的先公布在那邊啦大家有樣學要,哇,之前那15%現在我25%所以,喝酒對岸地,我覺得我是有期待的"},{"start":12335.1,"end":12345.907,"text":"另外就是說當然跟台電 今天這部分在主題台電的曾董事長也在曾董事長也在就是說這個"},{"start":12347.662,"end":12367.015,"text":"防災型的這個電纜滴消化很重要不用這次從這個台灣海峽沿著台灣海峽上來所以這些過去的台灣路徑是很不不尋常的對不對所以如果我們提早規劃把這個這個電感能夠及時滴消化像我在麒麟就做了不少"},{"start":12367.915,"end":12375.922,"text":"所以這次確定沒有太大的風災整個海線到雲林 甚至到雲林以南這個時候海線的相關省道就應該儘速地籌措相關經費讓這個電纜地下化不然電池在倒 整個磚頭都停電了 這很嚴重的問題這要優先處理好嗎"},{"start":12389.565,"end":12403.039,"text":"那個報告員謝謝您關心那個第一個事情我們會優先處理然後我也向您說明因為您那個選區其實我沒有新達電廠猜它是重要的電源線出口所以我們對那個重要電源線出口其實都會強化"},{"start":12405.581,"end":12423.568,"text":"所以但是你如果在台南、嘉義甚至雲林這些受風區啊你很難保證說這個台灣路徑怎麼走所以我覺得這些啊容易受到風災影響你點溫條一倒整個停電可能不是這兩三天可能這一周以上所以這部分是不是加強熱網熱線把這個列為優先區啊是彰化也要列入了"},{"start":12428.55,"end":12453.528,"text":"是沿海的部分我們會一定會特別那個彰化過去發生的是沿海啦就是有風沒有雨的狀況我們也後來有加強來改善對這不只是只有高雄台南還有這個西部沿海我覺得只有要加強這個電纜電感的這個韌性儘快的速度啊求說預算讓他這個地下化好謝謝董事長謝謝董事長跟部長我請這個農業部啊農業部陳部長"},{"start":12462.406,"end":12482.875,"text":"部長上週我們到永安流浪口管理的問題部裡面也了解相關的管理問題必須要再強化這是要有入法的可能性入法的話需要有一些共識需要跟這些相關同事做一些更多的討論跟溝通所以我覺得幾個方向"},{"start":12483.675,"end":12509.422,"text":"包括加強事主的責任提升收容管理的能力強化動物保護另外賦予動保檢察員寵物業管理然後其他的修法重點這些我們都討論過所以我覺得是不是這些修法方向部裡面都已經了解了是不是針對這些禁止餵養的部分甚至相關的寵物管理這個部分"},{"start":12509.942,"end":12533.738,"text":"是不是有可能在下一次趕快在下個會期把這個院版的這個動保法修正案能夠送來立法院好我跟委員說明現在動保法現在已經在行政院做一些審議那我們也跟上次跟委員報告大概下個會期會送進來那現在有兩個比較大的比較有爭議的議題就是就是所謂的禁止餵養還有動保警察"},{"start":12534.418,"end":12563.117,"text":"那禁止餵養當初我們也希望說透過禁止餵養能夠減少就是遊盪犬的聚集但是有不同的團體有不同的立場所以這個部分可能還需溝通那另外動保警察也有他不同的所以我們現在就是比例上呢反對禁止餵養的這個比例高嗎這個就是雙方不同的團體大概差不多啦我覺得這個只要是做高風險就需要樂區的部分啦"},{"start":12563.917,"end":12590.151,"text":"大家都希望說能夠禁止餵養就像委員說的齁我會去處理就是高風險的熱區一定要強制禁止餵養特別像永安我覺得讓人民在外出的時候他的居住生活的安全我覺得是最重要的你不能說因為禁止餵養流蕩捲一堆的時候讓我們的民眾外出都要拿個打狗棒我覺得政府該檢討"},{"start":12591.211,"end":12617.131,"text":"所以這個部分我們該處理市民的生活安全 散步運動都會受到國的攻擊 那個是非常危險所以我現在就是說 我們收集全台灣因為被遊蕩犬攻擊而受傷的這些案例那我們希望說透過這個案例再舉辦一些公聽會讓團體把這些共識趕快領取 下個會期是不是能夠收拾對 我們朝這個目標來處理下個會期就是希望說今年年底能夠修法通過"},{"start":12617.932,"end":12639.045,"text":"把禁止餵養能夠入法是然後你說的管理這個動物警察的部分也能夠入法這個比較有問題你們再想辦法我們再來協調一定要建立社會的共識是好 謝謝那最後一點時間請交內政部董事長董事長"},{"start":12644.741,"end":12672.374,"text":"委員好市長這個防災室是防災室我們應該這個做經過相關的這個推動到現在大概有4萬人希望年底要有10萬人那這是一個這個救災的能量防災的能量我是能夠有效的能夠運用所以我是期待說未來內政部能夠把這些防災室的人力做妥善的規劃有一些相關的工作的明確法源然後演練的機制這部分"},{"start":12673.274,"end":12691.628,"text":"市長您的看法是好那跟各位跟主席跟各位委員報告謝謝委員的垂詢事實上內政部防災室我們今年的目標是希望能夠達到10萬人有能夠防災室的執照所以我們從去年開始就積極在做訓練那今年也擴大到一個訓練目標那目前已經有5萬多人"},{"start":12692.228,"end":12721,"text":"那我們防災室的訓練最主要就是要強化民眾對於災防的一些知識跟技能那麼也透過這樣的方式讓大家可以自救跟互救是不是可以請市長把詳細的這個你們規劃的期程跟規劃的工作內容 相關的法律是不是可以提供一些資料給我是 我們會把相關的資料我們就書面提供給委員做參考那我們已經增加了許多的好 因為時間一到好 謝謝我要這個顯示一下這個國務院基本的素養時間到一定要"},{"start":12726.419,"end":12744.728,"text":"謝謝我們現在請林俊憲委員做詢問感謝主席本時邀請我們經濟部的郭部長台電的曾董事長曾董事長"},{"start":12750.249,"end":12764.017,"text":"議員好部長 你也有召集在庫那邊我想你應該感受到這次災情那麼慘其中這個斷電是一個非常重要的因素因為你如果停電在這邊的在庫很多地方是要停水"},{"start":12766.872,"end":12795.161,"text":"因為他們的水啊 水壓如果不夠都要靠那個抽水摩托所以你停電停水然後我們的電話條款都倒了所以啊 網路訊號 手機訊號現在都走我們的電話所所以這回倒了這次就是停電停水又停掉了電信訊號所以造成了可能是有史以來最慘重的災情之一啦現在大家都在說那如何強化"},{"start":12797.102,"end":12812.396,"text":"我們的電網的韌性 我想這倒不是供電的問題 是電網的問題如果強化我們電網的韌性 譬如說電能地下化電能地下化確實是一個方法 但是我想不是所有的答案"},{"start":12813.317,"end":12824.34,"text":"我跟董事長討論一下我以前在我選區我們台電也在外雙屋就是平安公路台17層這就是台南市的南區 溪丘到返里當中這以前風太大就跳電了因為它的電話條都站在台時機的旁邊颱風一來風很大 電線都會戳斷電話條沒到我們就戳斷電線"},{"start":12843.064,"end":12870.306,"text":"所以後來這個地方就跟北亞發就解決這個問題啦那這是2016年我跟我們台電爭取的那時候才六千多萬不過現在恐怕以目前的供料這個會很貴了啦啊這道理在這裡我想董事長跟我們台電的總經理你們大概幾乎幾乎都進駐在災區嘛你應該感同身受啦那醫藥要怎麼來強化我們的我們的電網啊我想"},{"start":12872.884,"end":12888.542,"text":"電纜如果地下化 沿水的地區就不行了是不是這樣 我不定有時間給你答詢但我要跟你 我的意見請你帶回去了那邊那個地方 目前可以優先電纜地下化 台北現在有沒有計畫"},{"start":12891.843,"end":12908.028,"text":"跟委員報告幾個事情第一個事情就是我們主幹線一定要先強化因為大家都用單一的解方就是說認為地下化就可以解決問題但地下化如果我們這些設備被水泡了那個解決問題要更久"},{"start":12908.548,"end":12929.499,"text":"因為淹水地方 電能地下化更麻煩2018年那個西部海岸淹水那個光是抽水就抽了7、8天那個7、8天以後才來復電那個事情會更麻煩所以我跟委員報告幾個事你剛才講可以地下化的地方可能都是要陸基比較穩定 好的道路我們來優先辦理那我們就很確定的來討論我剛剛台10級台19"},{"start":12934.281,"end":12944.708,"text":"省道啦 省得一波排水 你就做得比較好啦這部份是不是可以由省來做啦 我覺得台電你應該先先規範出可以遞交的 遞交的所在地的行則啦"},{"start":12965.461,"end":12984.188,"text":"我覺得這個是可能可以合作的事不淹水的地方然後又有高壓主線那個主幹管通過的地方要行走啦要行走地下化啦那這當中當然牽扯到跨部會尤其你省道喔因為你如果對人家地下化第一個你要交通維護啦"},{"start":12986.268,"end":13005.023,"text":"要有交尾的問題嘛對你啊 路面你要再 喔 要再停泊嘛有路權 有施工的問題嘛所以都是你們兩個部位應該要好好的互相協助的啦那另外啦 我再請教一下台電啦如果不能地下化的地方啦那應該要強化啦 提高啦 抗風"},{"start":13006.204,"end":13015.576,"text":"的這個急速啦對 謝謝委員 我覺得這件事情是我們因為地下化要花時間我們在這個 因為颱風現在7月就來 你要做一些事情我先跟委員報告就是說我們現在會在重要的"},{"start":13025.448,"end":13029.531,"text":"那個主要的那個電感上面因為比方說上面要裝開關就是切換的開關或者是有變壓器的我們會先把它快速的先換成抗風強度比較高的那在一排裡面如果有幾支這種抗風強度更高的鐵塔電感"},{"start":13046.124,"end":13062.348,"text":"他就不會他就可以讓整排導斷的範圍縮小可能一排原來可能20隻我們中間如果差了4、5隻他就比較不會導斷這麼多這個是我們台電可以自己做也可以馬上做的我們現在緊急在做我們已經準備要緊急採購更強化的電感來做這個"},{"start":13067.328,"end":13091.903,"text":"類似就是中央隔斷災害擴大的一些工作好 再來喔 因為這次電話條都要2400萬元喔那有些倒掉的喔 我也請台電經理去稍早啦你像現在還有一些喔 還沒有移走的喔我知道你現在也缺機具啦 缺人力啦那你要自己去想辦法克服啦要趕快把這個倒下來的電話條趕快去稍早這都看得乾淨啦 是 那個"},{"start":13092.443,"end":13099.885,"text":"大部分都移了 現在在部落裡面還沒移完 村落裡面都還沒移你當然先刷大樓啦 但是裡面還有很多 我拜託請台電趕快把這些倒塌的電線趕快移走好 謝謝好 謝謝曾董事長另外我來 部長您先休息我來請農業部陳部長"},{"start":13120.232,"end":13140.486,"text":"來 補充這次台南市的風災農業損失是差不多全國最多 差不多全部的45%那其中我現在發現 你的農漁業的補助標準沒有一樣你現在一不兩制 你現在農業補你都免限刊啦 現在也可以開始去公所受理申報 訂訂你現在漁業損失不是這樣 台南也很危險"},{"start":13145.612,"end":13163.439,"text":"那我現在接到的反應啦 你漁業署免限的條件你覺得沒辦法 怎麼可能 幾個人做得到你現在免限的條件 要有水產履歷 產銷履歷 還是有天然災害補助金錢救助你今年還沒有啊 有多少人死了對不對 今年有死了也很少啦第三 要有漁業的保險"},{"start":13172.701,"end":13191.995,"text":"這三個啦 產銷履歷也好啦 漁業保險 本來就是你漁業署要推廣漁業署推廣的績效你自己知道啦你看很多人有保養很少有 我數數給你看啦是酒瓣的零啦 是三百一的五啦 頭髮變數五啦吳國瑜的頭髮變數只有一啦我如果請教啦 你現在免限刊提這三個條件"},{"start":13199.207,"end":13218.019,"text":"當然不可能嘛我跟委員報告一下 這可能有一點誤解喔基本上我們免限幹的時候就是你只要能夠證明你有養殖的事實有沒有這個才算的 但是這三個就是說因為這三個在我們的資料庫有很容易就能夠查證啦但是你如果說只有這三個你所謂的 如果這三個條件你達不到"},{"start":13221.67,"end":13231.294,"text":"沒有 不是因為這三個裡面 我們的資料庫都有所以很容易查到沒有的時候你只要去證明有沒有你有財神跟養殖的事實這個你拿包括你如果有去放羊這個資料拿過來我們會去查證我們先來講一個確定現在有的公所他不受理第一個"},{"start":13248.151,"end":13259.58,"text":"我們如果不打架 你剛才說的那三個條件 我如果用照片你現在去寫我們那些假的 會發臭嘛 對不對所以應該是 如果我有拍照純正 我有養殖的事實 你就要認定了嘛你這樣農業跟漁業才會一致"},{"start":13268.446,"end":13296.978,"text":"我也非常同意委員所說的就是說漁業本身我如果是免限刊的話你只要去證明你有養殖的事實那養殖的事實你可以用APP的照相那公所如果願意認定就認定了或者是你剛才拿你因為我剛剛講的那三件我們的資料口都有你只要說你是成交履歷的我馬上調得到資料那你沒有的話你用照片也可以或者是你其他方式證明你有養殖那就可以了那這個部分我想我會再跟公所來溝通"},{"start":13298.818,"end":13312.943,"text":"好 那就按照部長你所說的另外有一個部分我認為要留意的 就是室內養殖的部分現在你做養殖的部分也有收來那室內養殖並沒有在我們這次的補償範圍內我是不是請營業署 你看這裡都風災造成的嘛那營業署 你第一邊說的這個部分是不是應該要納進來"},{"start":13323.035,"end":13340.75,"text":"我覺得這個應該要放進去 包括一些算是屬於設施啦 養殖的設施那養殖的設施如果農民的話 我們一次性的都提高到八成這個部分我想我們會來處理好 你應該要把室內養殖爺納入 好不好是好 要保證喔再給我們一分鐘 好 那個內政部 內政部 來董事長"},{"start":13347.706,"end":13365.072,"text":"委員好市長我們現在行政院在災後重建是我們對民宅我們已經開始有你補貼對今天我們叫你出店鋪的大廈房就一萬五萬十萬就是六萬到三萬三萬以上但是現在在庫我不知道你有沒有去過現場你有去過現場嗎在區現場我們署長有去過那裡補貼也去過了"},{"start":13377.917,"end":13393.37,"text":"我告訴你 你要把這個意見帶回去啦現在民眾非常不滿喔 就是因為在我們在庫每天都要去三合院啦三合院都一個門牌 每天都住幾個月啦整個一定這樣啦"},{"start":13395.339,"end":13403.563,"text":"阿你現在 你所謂破譯 依照你生涯的保証 你是都依一個門牌為單位嘛你應該以分數為單位啦你不能以門牌為單位啦我們會那個跟那個相關"},{"start":13410.741,"end":13418.067,"text":"我們是移戶來處理你看移戶是我的單位喔你有當時一個我曾經去縣勘看有一個三合院大六戶的他們有水電灘也能證明嘛有沒有居住四十李幹事或是龔壽也都知道嘛這樣有沒有"},{"start":13429.456,"end":13445.491,"text":"跟委員報告我們基本上就是三合院就是他是多戶一門牌嘛所以我們是一門牌一戶但是我們還是會以居住適時然後以破損的面積來做計算那做計算的方式我們就是按照破損的面積的狀況六坪到三十坪是五萬"},{"start":13446.212,"end":13454.635,"text":"表柱都一樣啦 但是你要他負責就算啦是 我們會去處理你不可以他問白的委員會啦 因為他當時問白的會打滾就好了啊這個不然你要趕快通知 因為現在是公所不受理多戶啊"},{"start":13462.657,"end":13463.657,"text":"現在請郭國文委員做詢答"},{"start":13497.596,"end":13501.332,"text":"谢主席先请那个农业部陈部长陈部长"},{"start":13506.578,"end":13526.692,"text":"部長台南這一次的天災農損第一名高達45%但是我就過往的每年的平均的農損每年大概要121億但是我們現金的補助大概約約只有31億我剛剛聽您講或許今年應該會超過平均值"},{"start":13530.534,"end":13548.31,"text":"去年其實就已經超過75億了對 所以說呢 基本上呢 這一個目前的這個預算的殖民都有在處理那現實上來說我們看到這個保護農民的部分大概基本上損失大概是只有25%整體來說是這樣子"},{"start":13550.832,"end":13565.004,"text":"所以我們現在看到的是說以目前為止天然災害還有包括農業保險應該是透過雙軌的方式不同層別那另外一個是屬於個人經濟的韌性有三層的作用來面對這個天災"},{"start":13567.786,"end":13591.482,"text":"那現在有一個出現的問題天然災害的這個部分我們做強化但個人的部分我們也需要強化但是保險的部分我們目前看到是最弱化的部分舉文旦的例子為例你最高理賠金額只有40%而最大的級數多少14級而已可是這次主委這是高達16級你極端企業沒有納入理當你這個保險保單的設計當中應該予以提高"},{"start":13597.787,"end":13606.183,"text":"起伏应该提高你起伏不够高相对覆盖率就不会高部长这里有检讨的空间啊"},{"start":13607.362,"end":13631.279,"text":"我跟委員報告這次大概理賠是用14級封40%如果它17級封的話就是100%那我也請我們的農進署這邊那個保單一定要滾動檢討如果沒有達到農民需要理賠而沒有理賠到我覺得它就不是一個好的保單我現階段就是許許多多農民跟我講說我都問他說田園災還沒搞"},{"start":13634.041,"end":13644.488,"text":"農業保險可以撥來倒但是沒辦法撥來倒為什麼因為誘因不足嘛所以趁這個機會來說就任性的部分的話我要請部長這個整個農業保險的部分要回去徹底的減少"},{"start":13649.671,"end":13669.984,"text":"這個我已經跟你講過好幾次了還有包括個人經濟任性的部分還有包括所謂的這個農民退休儲金我上次也講啊我也不曉得你報的怎麼樣啊都沒有進度啊我跟委員報告農民退休儲金這個部分大概我們跟已經跟行政院已經包括 溝通好了嗎已經相關的溝通已經大概完成了什麼時候要宣布"},{"start":13670.544,"end":13697.46,"text":"那這個部分可能會在因為它是需要修法的嘛需要修法我們一定是在下個會議一定會送進來好 然後接下來我就在講啊在這剛剛在談就是說有關於你的農 漁 牧你這個補助的標準應該要雷同啊認定的基準也應該雷同啊譬如講我給你舉一個例子我們最近在奔波在低層的時候就看到一個問題你的婚姻額外的步驟跟額外的步驟"},{"start":13700.011,"end":13705.837,"text":"基本上金額就差非常多 一個公園11萬 一個天2萬5但是額外補助額外成本是分額要5倍 額外的補助是1億5分之1我舉個例子 昨天就有一個里長跟我complain 他3.75公頃補助起來換起來不到5千塊"},{"start":13725.24,"end":13734.608,"text":"為什麼 因為你把間接的成本在你的航照圖生產的面積以外它的底牌啊 主要在那邊長小 你都不算面積這樣認定過於重演啦所以以致於民怨不斷啦"},{"start":13742.028,"end":13757.684,"text":"部長 這個有檢討的空間啊第一個你要知道這個每一個養殖項目的成本的部分你要先徹底的了解第二個部分你要去清楚的知道這個實質的這個整個養殖的方式是如何"},{"start":13758.365,"end":13771.976,"text":"部長你可以檢討一下啦這第一我第二個來說包括你傳統的畜牧業部分堆肥社的部分你補足一片差不多兩百五十五是最新鮮的鋼琴成本差不多一千這差不多現階段差不多八千一萬"},{"start":13774.938,"end":13798.759,"text":"您講的都差不多10分之一而已啦現實上差太多啦如果相對於農漁木我剛剛講這比較上這有需要調整的空間啦 部長這麻煩回去稍微處理一下好不好好 第一個我跟委員報告就是救助金本身的一個金額的調整會隨著物價而調整我們大概上次已經說的我們大概每半年的話到一年都會調整一次"},{"start":13799.099,"end":13820.787,"text":"那問題是就算是少啦然後第二個就是說因為這次部分特別像續社的部分因為你要去調整救助金我們用補助的方式專門補助的方式來協助他能夠度過這次人狼關我跟你講我跟你講我就這兩個項目你就回去幫我檢討一下我請董事上來一下你會後給我回覆啦這兩個強烈的在表達不滿董事"},{"start":13828.713,"end":13828.854,"text":"來 謝謝部長請回來"},{"start":13833.162,"end":13861.775,"text":"總之16年前的八八風災的這個土石流需要一套SOP的方式也就是議城古島區今年度消防署公布的這個資料剛好是在丹麥斯颱風來了一周框了13個縣市這個古島區台南市是零台南市是零喔結果整個台南市這次形成了多少古島沿海一帶都是古島好幾個部落都是古島我調了一下113年的數字台南還有一處是在南化那為什麼我們的議城古島區台南都變成零"},{"start":13862.515,"end":13885.625,"text":"因為你從土石流的概念來思考這個孤島而已嘛那天災難道只有土石流而已嗎所以跟委員報告我們消防署雖然說目前已經有那個之前的決議是說這些地方被刪除但是我們會重新再去討論那一塊而且部長也指示過我們針對整個孤島地區會重新做一個新的討論這些孤島地區在這是以我選區七股的西寮鼎山沿城"},{"start":13886.636,"end":13915.405,"text":"完全都是每一個都不同的孤島就是脆弱的沿海地帶當中應該納入救災的準備機制啊對 未來會檢討未來會檢討這裡頭就非常的清楚包括北門都是這樣子嘛至少 之所以會形成這個孤島除了風力之外還有一個你知道嗎它在第一個時間點颱風登陸的時候整個七股的沿海的這個浮標測到最高的這個浪高是5.7啊你們說海水道觀居民說那是海嘯"},{"start":13917.533,"end":13931.65,"text":"所以進來之後為什麼會變成這樣子細節我不跟你講七谷的沙洲的整個修築的這個海堤啊能量都非常有限那之前這兩個缺口不用是"},{"start":13932.991,"end":13953.282,"text":"兩個沙洲不管是忙得了還是輕鬆感都處於侵蝕的階段甚至變破體以至於海水會倒灌倒灌進來之後我曾經去會堪過我曾經也開過協調會會堪協調會之後呢每個部會中央所屬不同的部會包括你內政部也好包括經濟部也好互相"},{"start":13954.543,"end":13972.558,"text":"說不是他的責任另外地方也有地方的管轄範圍所以分屬各地我以為啊用一個方式可以解決就是台南市把它列入一級的海岸的防護啊以前一級海岸防護都是本島離島不算那發現你們在109年6月就已經把台南一級防護納進去了69公里海岸線了是"},{"start":13975.831,"end":13996.303,"text":"那結果呢 時間過了幾年 過了五年了有沒有做 沒有做我簡單的講 重點的說兩個方式 一個呢 離岸這個堤防要不要蓋你要跟這個經濟部水利署對 國家公運署跟水利署已經合作 我們會來處理什麼時候 什麼時候我上次協調會兩邊還推來推去啦我們儘快來處理 什麼時候"},{"start":14000.905,"end":14021.148,"text":"下禮拜給本席一個答覆好可以吧下禮拜給本席一個答覆另外一個中期的部分可以做的就是海雜門是海雜門有550億的這個水利工程或經濟部的水利署在不在來署長來署長這個海雜門有沒有效龍山的海雜門蓋了就好了這邊沿海地帶有幾個海雜門"},{"start":14023.106,"end":14036.925,"text":"報告委員 這個是大寮排水大寮排水有沒有海雜滿它規劃設計有 也核定了那目前是還沒有那因為當初市政府這個完成治理規劃以後"},{"start":14038.968,"end":14050.96,"text":"地方的居民對於海雜門的使用的部分還有些疑慮但是規劃完這是地方居民跟我要求的現在有疑慮嗎所以我們現在如果說市政府認為可以來做我們會來考慮納到我們下一階段"},{"start":14055.865,"end":14067.328,"text":"是 準備好我們會全力來幫忙 當場來宣布到底需要蓋幾個海雜門的應急工程開始來施作是 結果我們要依照市政府所核定的內容我們會來積極協助還有包括那個離岸堤防也一遍 回答本席沒有問題 是美根委員報告針對離岸堤防大概有需要那個沙長帶破損目前我們會全力幫忙在"},{"start":14079.252,"end":14079.773,"text":"現在請黃國昌委員做詢答"},{"start":14107.847,"end":14110.09,"text":"謝謝主席 有請經濟部部長 農業部部長郭部長 陳部長"},{"start":14121.164,"end":14140.998,"text":"兩位部長好 時間的關係直接進入上個禮拜衛環委員會我們非常關心在風災之後光電板對環境所造成的污染特別在新聞那邊的志宏池我直接問當時的次長說清理完了沒有所以他跟我說99%清理完了"},{"start":14143.715,"end":14161.845,"text":"那官員在國會裡面詢問我基本上都是採取信任的態度但是我從嘉義那邊所得到的陳情完全不是這麼回事我第二天找人去看這個是第二天回來的照片這是哪門子的99%清理完成請部長"},{"start":14167.319,"end":14194.714,"text":"報告委員我想這個這一部分我們大概你所這個隨行的部分應該是我們在聽起來是暗編不對那天講得很清楚我關心的就是志宏慈他事後要怎麼發新聞稿文過是非那個是他個人的問題尋答的內容清清楚楚在立法院裡面全部全程轉播所有的人都可以公平"},{"start":14196.206,"end":14207.559,"text":"部長你不是本人啊你不是本人所以我鍋不會要你背但我要拜託部長回去請經濟部的官員事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣"},{"start":14209.077,"end":14235.176,"text":"該怎麼回答就怎麼回答不清楚就說不清楚但是不要欺騙但是不要欺騙你只要欺騙都會被打臉我那天臉書po完了以後媒體跟進報導拍出來的照片大概是這個樣子這個叫99%清理完成啊報告委員我可以說嗎可以請這個案場我也去看了"},{"start":14236.523,"end":14259.018,"text":"這個案場不是你拍就你拍的這個部分是沒有錯這個有多大你知道嗎我知道所以我後來秀106個足球場那麼大是所以我後來秀媒體的空拍圖給你看嘛第二個是第二個這個地方要清楚啊我們前面12天因為台電在復電的需求是所以都是台電在做"},{"start":14259.518,"end":14287.609,"text":"他根本沒有辦法清出來但是我們把外圍的外圍都已經清好了就是裡面的這個池子裡面的我們還沒有清你說的你說的都沒有問題啊現在我在質疑的事情是那一天經濟部的次長大衛華委員會如同您今天所講的這個樣子事情是怎麼樣老老實實的跟大家講清楚就好了嗎我有說錯嗎"},{"start":14289.141,"end":14312.045,"text":"他那天不是這樣回答的耶斬釘截鐵的說99%清理完成了我從當地那邊所得到的檢舉就不是這樣啊我為了怕經濟部說我只拍小部分我還特別7月18號媒體去現場看的空拍圖我秀出來對比給大家看我只有一個point"},{"start":14313.909,"end":14322.05,"text":"請你需要時間但現實的狀況是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣不要文過是非不要說謊這樣的要求很過分嗎"},{"start":14323.052,"end":14349.49,"text":"我想委員你說的我們絕對不會聞過是非啦我想我們的市長也不是第一天來當市長是他應該要怎麼回答他非常的清楚是我想這裡面大概大家彼此有一點誤會是我們認為可能是外部沒有關係今天部長要用誤會來解釋沒有關係您就這樣解釋我只希望這種誤會未來不要再發生再往下看"},{"start":14350.37,"end":14363.481,"text":"今年我們在省中央政府總預算的時候我們為了要尊潔支出特別不要讓政府拿納稅人的錢去搞大那一圈我們針對沒宣費 統三了百分之六十"},{"start":14368.445,"end":14395.568,"text":"那統三的60%以後各部會接下來執行的狀況如何我當然會去追嘛那依照預算法相關的規定各個部會每一季沒宣費的費用都要公告那我公告我稍微看了一下就是說我們以去年的Q1跟今年的Q1來比行政機關指的是經濟部本部跟其他相關的機關Q1的沒宣費大概花了600多萬"},{"start":14396.989,"end":14412.024,"text":"然後去年的Q1花了400多萬那我看了這個數字以後我覺得有點奇怪那怎麼刪了60%你們Q1花的錢比去年的Q1還多是你們集中把沒宣費都擠到第一季還是有經費流用的狀況"},{"start":14414.156,"end":14432.821,"text":"這個部分我要了解一下要了解一下嗎好沒有關係那我請部長回去了解一下以後把數字給我可以嗎可以一個禮拜夠不夠可以可以嗎好下來那從經濟部的做法就會知道主管機關應該按月公開媒體宣傳業務的主題跟金額這個是當初"},{"start":14434.682,"end":14464.202,"text":"在修訂預算法62條之一的時候那大家希望能夠貫徹的價值啊因為在當代的民主法治國家當中邊預算邊預算來進行媒體宣傳怎麼樣避免進行所謂置入性的行銷甚至養媒體這種亂象過去這麼多年納稅人非常關心批評也很強烈那最起碼經濟部做到一件事情我肯定你們都有依法公佈金額"},{"start":14465.142,"end":14492.472,"text":"那金額數字剛剛我所提出來的問題再請部長回去了解接下來請農業部部長農業部有遵守預算法律12條之一的規定嗎您說的是媒體的部分是不是是我相信我們的同仁應該會遵守那如果沒有遵守呢我這個我必須去了解了解他們所謂的您所謂的沒有遵守的部分是哪一個項目就最簡單的嘛"},{"start":14494.028,"end":14516.651,"text":"你們有按濟公告嗎有有有按濟公告有來我今天早上來質詢前我還在去看農業部本部沒有公布114年媒體宣傳費啊你為什麼說有是剛剛突然補上去嗎這個是這個是今天早上的解讀我想這個部分我想"},{"start":14518.213,"end":14537.463,"text":"應該要按計公告 當然要嘛所以如果沒有的話 我現在就問你為什麼沒有嘛 我不知道你不知道 我要去了解好沒有關係 需要多少時間了解這個下午我馬上就可以了解了下午馬上了解 好 下午下班以前為什麼沒有公告為什麼沒有公告下午下班以前書面回覆"},{"start":14538.46,"end":14557.1,"text":"有沒有問題可以不要到時候承辦人又打電話到我辦公室說我們都已經公文簽出去了長官不在沒有辦法回覆簽出來拜託再等一等又不曉得要拖到什麼時候我想我回應一定是說下班以前回覆沒有問題嘛"},{"start":14558.288,"end":14575.328,"text":"可以可以嗎 因為按照規定啊即使你半毛都沒有花都應該要公告說我半毛都沒有花我也要確認是不是真的半毛都沒有花所以才沒有公告我還下去找我透過我們的標案系統看不是啊"},{"start":14576.38,"end":14597.232,"text":"你們農業部 華市 民視 三立通通都有今年執行的案子啊為什麼沒有依法公告他納稅的人知道嗎這種依法應該要做的事情就要做啦這個我相信部長應該不會否認啦回去搞清楚為什麼該做沒有做我下一個問題"},{"start":14600.516,"end":14627.934,"text":"當初我們的前同事蘇志芬委員給他接中央續產會的董事長一堆酬庸的批評都出來那當然你們說這個是借重償財推動改革給他一年年薪將近300萬中央續產會的董事長這樣的位置去做現在我只有個問題中央續產會董事長他的業務繁不繁重還是很閒"},{"start":14629.246,"end":14653.147,"text":"我想中央區長會是負責整個的...是我知道他負責什麼現在我只關心他是整天沒事幹嗎還是業務很繁重一年領三百萬到底在幹些什麼事情我跟委員報告齁就是中央區長會特別我邀請他來以後希望說他第一個針對整個區長會的制度上面做一個精進跟改革第二個部分是"},{"start":14654.348,"end":14671.81,"text":"針對現在目前比較重要的豬跟雞的整個的產銷我希望說他能夠建立一個有效的一個系統所以我相信他一定是積極在處理這方面的事情所以他工作反不反送我想我沒有辦法代替他沒有辦法代替他回答因為如果啦看你們編的預算嘛"},{"start":14672.671,"end":14683.796,"text":"一年大概他薪資的部分大概變了284萬嘛有的沒有加起來啦大概是這個薪水這個薪水不能說低但我現在的問題是什麼來看一下我去雲林的時候鄉親給我的投訴是中央區常會董事長很閒是不是一天到晚在雲林裡面搞大罷免"},{"start":14700.148,"end":14720.473,"text":"你晚上 假日 你自己休息的時間你有你的政治主張自由 我沒意見啊中央區長會的辦公室是在雲林嗎還是董事長不用進辦公室沒關係一天不在雲林那 不大罷免還有上班的時間在這樣搞的部長適合嗎 還是這是農業部鼓勵了"},{"start":14723.817,"end":14747.284,"text":"我想第一個部分以農業部來講我們農業部部本部本身包括我們的所屬工研系的行政中立那至於這個 中央市場會需不需要行政中立這個法人的部分就不需要沒有我還沒有講完法人的部分其實我們也希望說他在正式上班時間的時候是一個行政中立那私底下他的任何的行為 這我剛講過了嘛"},{"start":14748.504,"end":14771.8,"text":"阿如果上班的時間跑去宣傳大罷免 農業部要不要處理不是 上班的時間這個牽涉到因為我們人都有可以有請假我現在不了解他實際的那個沒關係阿 你去了解清楚嘛我會有這些照片就雲林的鄉親我去雲林的時候跟我投訴阿所以我們中央訓察會很閒阿"},{"start":14773.407,"end":14786.607,"text":"一天到晚在雲林搞大罷免你納稅人的錢在幹這種事情適合嗎?真的適合嗎?請部長回去了解一下可以嗎?我可以去了解可以齁需要多少時間?"},{"start":14788.018,"end":14812.155,"text":"一樣下班以前回覆可以嗎沒有辦法喔因為需要多久等726搞完以後再回覆嗎我必須了解沒關係你需要多久我現在沒辦法很確定的告訴你所以需要多久你也沒辦法跟我講序長會有序長會我們所有的需要資料都是序長會都要用公務的方式去處理它不是我們直屬的公務系統可以馬上一通電話就可以搞定"},{"start":14812.655,"end":14834.287,"text":"所以相對的他本身你所提到他在上班時間做一些其他的非上班的業務那這個部分他們也要去了解所以這個了解我不知道要多久嘛我現在沒有辦法確定很有可能726以後才會有答案嘛對我來講我沒有726這種概念最好是沒有啦你納稅人的錢搞這種事啊我看不下去啊"},{"start":14835.319,"end":14848.687,"text":"我看不下去啊你要不然你要不然你要不然就回家吃自己你拿納稅人的錢上班時間在搞這種事情這什麼政府啊"},{"start":14850.663,"end":14875.173,"text":"這哪門是行政中立啊納稅人付錢給你薪水是在幹這種事喔我現在不了解但是相對他如果是請假的方式齁那相對的請假以外的事情是他個人的事情所以在我還沒有了解他實際的狀況之下我不做任何的一個評論沒關係啊 那我就等啊等農業部看什麼時候回覆了不管726之前還是726之後這件事情我一定會追究到底好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":14878.393,"end":14881.174,"text":"我们现在请郑天才委员做询答"},{"start":14907.265,"end":14927.113,"text":"主席有請農業部部長還有經濟部部長陳部長郭部長好那個部長陳部長這個今天都在談這個114年度的"},{"start":14932.425,"end":14951.01,"text":"這個特別公務預算撥補到這個農業特別基金這個預算書寫得很清楚是因為超市貸對不對原因呢是因為超市貸希望這個然後刪減的部分的經費"},{"start":14955.097,"end":14976.45,"text":"預算法第22條規定立法院審議刪除或刪減這預算項目及金額不得動之一倍金但法定經費後經立法院同意者不再此限災害防救法規定得很明確可不可以說它是法定經費"},{"start":14979.244,"end":15006.238,"text":"部長我跟委員報告天然災害救助基金並不是一個法定預算所有的基金都不是法定預算那你剛才講的另外一個那個是災防基金又不一樣部長為了農民我們要想盡辦法去解釋我當三十年公務員所以要想盡辦法去解釋為了農民為了農民我再講一次為了農民我告訴你一個案例"},{"start":15010.188,"end":15031.784,"text":"今年114年度中央選舉委員會的預算選務經費也被刪減現在搞大罷免是用哪裡的經費行政院的第二億備金所以可以用行政院的第二億備金所以這個部分接下來"},{"start":15036.328,"end":15063.164,"text":"我只是給你方法啦我們給你方法要想盡辦法為農民爭取協議何況現在都還沒有補足我們所有的委員都資深的委員都非常清楚所以過往都不會去刪減我們公務撥補基金的因為他知道一旦刪減以後我們再動用二倍金的時候是非常困難的但是法律規定的很清楚好我們看這個"},{"start":15064.912,"end":15092.051,"text":"農業特別收入基金他也農業發展基金 漁業發展基金農產品受進口 農害救助基金林務的基金然後接下來就是我們今天談的農業天然災害的救助基金還有農村再生基金所以在這個公益上撥補到這個農業特別收入基金"},{"start":15093.188,"end":15101.003,"text":"它是好幾個項目所以這個提案寫得很清楚是為了超思蛋"},{"start":15102.202,"end":15130.764,"text":"超適當的不是在做農業天然災害的救助沒有沒有沒有 我以為你誤會了齁我沒有誤會沒有沒有 我沒有責怪你喔沒有 他刪減的理由是一件事情但是他一旦刪減了以後就會回到遇重22條去處理我沒有要責怪你我們現在檢討增企的方向預算被刪了雖然預算刪了之後還是比7年多那沒有關係"},{"start":15133.062,"end":15156.34,"text":"萬一不足的時候,我們現在爭取解決的途徑我們現在在討論,我沒有怪你喔我從來到現在為止都沒有跟你計畫喔所以你不要跟我強辯所以我想說明清楚而已我清楚啊,我剛剛聽了你你的說法我們要爭取,所以我們可以解釋說可以解釋說,因為"},{"start":15158.464,"end":15180.311,"text":"那個理由不是針對天然災害 農業天然災害所以可以 我們要往這個方向去努力這個沒辦法處理 我跟委員報告你給我30秒就好我還負責協調行政院主計總署這個所謂的我們三預算的理由是一件事情決議了以後的結果是另外一件事情接下來"},{"start":15182.148,"end":15205.611,"text":"特別收入基金可以超支並結算超支並結算也要有經費來源才能夠超支並結算這個112年11月行政院主計總署的報告為了幫你解決這個問題為了幫農民解決問題我想盡辦法找資料喔我都沒有怪你喔我們要往"},{"start":15207.093,"end":15224.894,"text":"好的方向去争取农民的权益所以我们把这些资料提供给你也就是要帮助农民而且如果从109到111年度特别收入基金就针对"},{"start":15227.269,"end":15249.3,"text":"農業災害的情況也有超支並結算也有超支並結算我們就往這個方向去努力好不好超支並結算也要有經費的來源現在重點就是說我超支並結算過往是用二倍金現在二倍金不能動了我還要再另外找錢不過我要跟委員講就算被動了以後我也想辦法借錢委員來處理"},{"start":15251.941,"end":15271.41,"text":"你不了解超支並決算沒有關係回期再請回座我非常了解所以我要跟委員超支並決算一定要有經費來源才能做超支並決算請回座你的基金空了嗎完全沒有錢了嗎我的基金所有的基金都有它的科目基金不是一個水庫都可以隨便亂用的請回座"},{"start":15275.762,"end":15303.982,"text":"不是每個人都會了解這個啦老公務員也不見得都會了解老公務員真的也都不見得都會了解好這個部長這個這個報導啊當初是為了海上的太陽光電所做的非常大的報導如果大海是一隻狂暴的野獸這主持人說的"},{"start":15306.181,"end":15334.335,"text":"海上光電廠在這個狂暴的野獸的背上蓋一座太陽城呢這個我們的董事長打造陳不末的保臉打造陳不末的保臉然後我們經濟部以石油基金的預算"},{"start":15337.275,"end":15362.726,"text":"113年度是8600多萬114年度2000多萬總共1億多的錢請教一下能源署因為這畢竟都是之前核定的跟部長無關除了石油基金補助之外還有其他的科目嗎有沒有其他科目"},{"start":15364.588,"end":15389.382,"text":"如果還要查的話再順便給我好了好時間的關係然後石油基金收支保管金運用辦法規定的也很清楚了這個我們就下次再談然後這個這個是颱風前的的一個照片然後因為丹娜是颱風"},{"start":15391.872,"end":15407.541,"text":"部長當那是颱風發生之後然後太陽能光電被吹的甚至吹到澎湖都有我一看啊這個當中度颱風啊當那是颱風是中度颱風啊"},{"start":15409.667,"end":15437.063,"text":"台灣尤其是從屏東上來的颱風哪一個不是從屏東啊從屏東上來之後往台東往花蓮或者是往台灣海峽或者是從屏東然後就往廣東都是一定會經過屏東然後台灣的中度颱風何其多何況台灣的強度颱風"},{"start":15440.489,"end":15462.674,"text":"何其何其的多所以這個部分我看了也很痛心了因為都是人民的納稅錢然後造成這樣的一個災害真的很痛心然後又不用還貧這只是其中之一如果我們要看其他的"},{"start":15465.828,"end":15492.541,"text":"其他的都很多你也都看過了我也不講時間的關係我的意見就是說做決策者尤其是公務員尤其是公務員這部長不是你核定的所以在進行這種計畫核定的時候公務員要去思考"},{"start":15494.502,"end":15510.586,"text":"臺灣的氣候台風會不可能不知道所以這個部分是一個需要去深思的好不好我們回去好好檢討這個部分不要再換這樣的一個重要的一個錯誤謝謝好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":15533.339,"end":15546.457,"text":"好 我們請召委謝一鳳質詢好 謝謝主席我想要請我們農業部的陳部長陳部長"},{"start":15551.227,"end":15567.719,"text":"陳部長我想請問這次的清源專案我們彰化縣農民申請的期間是從7月就是到7月25號為止但是現在申請的農民跟農地有多少"},{"start":15568.539,"end":15586.447,"text":"那我知道在嘉義跟台南他們可以延後那因為現在災民都在救災在申報的期限上面是不是有辦法也給予災民跟台南嘉義一樣延後申報呢"},{"start":15587.487,"end":15601.653,"text":"我跟委員說明就是救災跟我們的這些補助包括你剛才講到道座的清源對那這個部分它不在救災的範圍所以它的沒有一些時間的限制然後第二個就是說救災的部分我們雖然說10天"},{"start":15604.074,"end":15623.796,"text":"但是如果需要延長的時候可以延長五天這個地方政府我們每天幾乎都打電話給地方政府保持聯絡如果說他覺得他的案件太多需要延長的話我們會立即同意的這個我想請農民可以放心所以一級倒座的這個就是申報還有就是清源不在這裡面嗎對 這個沒有"},{"start":15625.097,"end":15641.206,"text":"這個用專案的輔導的話那個時間我們都沒有所謂的截止日啦你只要有真正的去繳交有他的事實的話我們都會認不會說因為他時間到了就不處理不會因為7月21號到期那還沒有去申報就不處理是不是你這樣講了要給農民清楚喔"},{"start":15646.73,"end":15674.092,"text":"對我們會再去講清楚救助是一件事情這個是專門協助的部分就沒有時間的限制只要他有受災的時候就可以來申請因為我們水稻的面積是1800公頃是全國最大的一個部分而且將近那時候將近有20%還沒有收啦對我們那時候就是在委員的關心之下我們特別是把這個災害國也把它納入那這個部分在漲化地區的農民都覺得很不錯的一個方法"},{"start":15674.392,"end":15688.282,"text":"還有因為微怕颱風也要來了那因為微怕颱風如果來的話那這樣子其實也會就是說延長因為我們還不知道他現在入境的方向到底上岸的地點是為何"},{"start":15689.483,"end":15717.388,"text":"所以影響的範圍我們也不清楚的狀況之下也期望就是說對於農業的災損那這一次農業部可以給予更長的時間然後讓農民好好的清除再加上二期稻作未來怎麼樣子進行如果目前清源以及就是沒有辦法清除現在在上面受損的這些稻作的話那"},{"start":15717.808,"end":15741.759,"text":"有可能二期到時候沒有辦法順利那這樣怎麼做呢我想我們是希望說他如果是受災的這些股他可以千元的部分他直接可以拿掉然後他還來得及二期做那如果說現在快要收穫的話我們都希望說他能夠來得及二期做如果來不及二期做的部分的時候那相對的我們有二期做的這些轉做的誘因是可以來支持的"},{"start":15742.079,"end":15751.535,"text":"好 謝謝那你請回我想要請交通部陳次長還有內政部的董事長"},{"start":15757.915,"end":15786.879,"text":"我請問兩位來委員會報告因為這一次的災損很多都涉及到房屋還有車輛的這個部分喔那其實喔上一次在報這個災損的時候大家都感受到非常的不方便那請問這一次怎麼樣子協助災民在申請災損災害的這些救助的時候內政部跟交通部能夠重塑啊是不是先請內政部啊"},{"start":15788.633,"end":15806.552,"text":"謝謝召委那我想內政部已經在行政院的指示之下我們已經透過在7月18號透過專案的方式補助那麼整個災損的方式我們就是依照院長的指示重寬重塑重寬重塑的方式來處理所以我們就是在那個"},{"start":15807.473,"end":15823.001,"text":"你破損的範圍在6到30坪之內我們就是馬上就是給你補貼那60坪以上的我們也就是另外一個金額的補貼而且我們是以居住適時作為現況的認定好那每戶來做一個快速的補助那由地方政府來統籌由帶一窗口來運作這樣子"},{"start":15825.362,"end":15842.871,"text":"其實在台南市已經就完成了相關的一個房屋的登記而且我們不是只有屋頂包括外牆的損毀還有一些相關的居住的狀況的損毀我們都有全部的保護那除了嘉義之外除了台南在嘉義縣也是一致那災區也都認定了"},{"start":15844.042,"end":15862.97,"text":"我相信這一次雖然比較嚴重的就是南部那大家都是人機幾機人力幾力希望說內政部跟交通部對於相關的這樣子的災民的補助一定要從寬從簡不要是只是政策性的宣布沒有沒有 我們的錢都已經直接下去跟公所直接對接了對 好那你們倆請回 我們請經濟部長謝謝"},{"start":15877.557,"end":15897.173,"text":"郭部長這一次我們看到屏東的這個旭東光電這個他在測試離岸光電浮板的這個系統海上的耐受性那我們看到了這一次明顯的嚴重"},{"start":15898.419,"end":15919.011,"text":"是怎麼樣沒有辦法承受這個風災那未來離岸的光電還能做嗎你離岸光電沒有辦法做的話你怎麼做這是整個能源政策的問題啊你趕快回答是報告委員我想我們也在對這一次的這個颱風造成這樣的這個這個屏東的這個佳東這個地方的這個這個怎麼講他承載的這個"},{"start":15928.475,"end":15946.674,"text":"結構存在的部分然後會變成漂流我非常訝異因為在去年三個比這個颱風更嚴重它也是存在的它沒問題為什麼這一次颱風會有問題所以我們大概在做研究就是必須要長期的觀察"},{"start":15947.395,"end":15960.941,"text":"所以我當然這個是給我們一個非常好的一個學習那為什麼去年可以為什麼今年會有這個問題所以在做研究不會說只做這個幾個月啊或者是所以他會有一個長期的研究這一點跟委員報告那所以"},{"start":15964.332,"end":15976.567,"text":"你們在太陽能光電這一塊上面如果離岸風電現在沒有辦法繼續做的話我是說如果他的抗壓就是抗風的能力不足的情況下"},{"start":15978.125,"end":15996.191,"text":"你要多久的時間確定他有沒有辦法繼續做而目前我們知道現在即便是農地都拿來做光電其實我們也發現了根本不合我們所需的綠電的需求是不是"},{"start":15997.671,"end":16019.2,"text":"你要怎麼做報告委員我們現在這個農地來做這個綠電的部分大部分就是農 農漁來做啦就底下做這個養殖然後上面做這個太陽能那大概這是一種另外一種我們會找的就底下沒有養殖大概就是不堪這個農作的地"},{"start":16021.401,"end":16044.377,"text":"這個我們要盤點但全台灣還有一些它這個土地就是不能夠給種植所用我們盡量在那個我們還是認為現在好像大家對我們的綠電已經感覺上好像有點是嫌惡設施我們當然會盡量去找到跟一般的居民"},{"start":16045.657,"end":16055.165,"text":"能夠大家可以接受但是如果大家認為說光電這個不應該在台灣發展那我們就這樣會想到其他的方法啦那確實這個會對我們現在要馬上面臨RE100的這樣的一個實現"},{"start":16062.51,"end":16079.094,"text":"我們會考慮很多在台灣我們有其他的方法包括我們用地熱或者我們用小水利不過這都不足以來滿足光電的部分光電我們還是會繼續再找只是很多的數據會讓我們做一個參考作為地點的一個選擇"},{"start":16083.675,"end":16104.762,"text":"那所以未來如果像這樣子的一個離岸的光電廠你們要繼續測試的話那抗風的它這個抗風的係數有沒有辦法提高我認為如果它沒有辦法滿足這樣的一個需求因為可能那個風向的問題啦這一次我們從台南嘉義的那些風災"},{"start":16106.062,"end":16124.661,"text":"來看都是南北向的這個房子啊這個它被捲起來這個屋頂被捲起來大概都是這樣南北向那如果說你是東西向的大概就沒有受災那是不是抗風係數的問題那未來有沒有辦法提高光電板的抗風係數這個我們都會從這個這一次的經驗裡面來做學習"},{"start":16127.628,"end":16150.209,"text":"所以你還不知道我們會學習我想我們會跟這個我們是相信科學的人所以我們會從科學的角度裡面來解決這個問題因為我覺得就是經濟部應該就這個部分真的要通盤性的檢討我們因為有工業技術研究院所以我們工業技術研究院裡面也有綠能研究所"},{"start":16150.749,"end":16173.137,"text":"他們會對這一次的現象那麼造成這些現象的原因我們會充分的研究好 我希望經濟部通盤的檢討因為畢竟這個能源的政策對於台灣來講是非常重要對於經濟發展也非常重要那如果沒有辦法走這一塊的時候我們必須要了解說下一步我們要怎麼樣做好 謝謝"},{"start":16195.302,"end":16205.47,"text":"好 現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答 呂玉玲委員 呂玉玲委員不在現在請林黛嬅委員做詢答有請郭部長"},{"start":16214.872,"end":16230.579,"text":"好 本星相 針對這個極端氣候衝擊再生人員設施 中央是放手地方無力 造成災害好 我們來看這一次的當奈斯颱風這個是從嘉義縣登陸造成的嘉義縣這120年來的一個災情慘重那也多達了70億萬戶的停電但這凸顯了我極端氣候下我的氣候風險"},{"start":16243.766,"end":16260.084,"text":"所帶來的一個電力的一個韌性的因應其實是相對要更高的一個標準好我們看這個丹納斯颱風的光電跟電廠本席針對這樣的極端氣候所造成的光電廠當中"},{"start":16262.466,"end":16266.87,"text":"來做一個討論那在這次颱風當中光電廠是14個案其中這4個案大的電廠的4個案都在滯洪池上小型案場10個而這個災損只要在這個災損的部分在光電廠是沒有人好在沒有人傷亡但是設施是有損害的那風電廠是完全沒有災損就是在設備上也沒有"},{"start":16289.77,"end":16313.689,"text":"好那我們看發電量這次的光電廠的一個發電量的損失的總裝置容量到32.62MW也就是每天損失將近高峰用電的11.2萬噸我光是這個清台所造成的一個高峰用電量就11.2萬噸的損失這是你經濟部能源署所提供的數據喔"},{"start":16314.69,"end":16333.372,"text":"好那本席啊這個在前兩次我已經質詢過了就是台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營確保民生穩定而這當中這一次的質詢第二次的這個質詢當中有去講到再次第二次的去提到人員署應該建立"},{"start":16334.473,"end":16352.622,"text":"評估建立再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制並且規劃台電場域先行事辦以利後續的推動要求到民營電廠那到底有沒有呢剛才聽到我們謝映峰召回他質詢的他講得非常的好你們根本沒有工具"},{"start":16353.442,"end":16366.288,"text":"你的工具在哪裡 你說要科學的監理哪裡有好 等一下我再講說你們的科學監理所以這次是再生人員沒有環境數據的監理機制也就沒有預宣防災的判斷個作為我剛才就講到說這次發生的都在志鴻池上"},{"start":16376.013,"end":16377.755,"text":"為什麼我光電廠會沒有摘損因為它的它已經有個機制了只要風到什麼極速的時候它就鎖住了它不會再做風力的運轉但是這一次在水域當中的這個光電廠怎麼樣"},{"start":16393.691,"end":16417.542,"text":"風力到什麼極致的時候我滯洪池上的光電廠我應該做怎麼樣的保護譬如說我應該做電纜相關的那個矽電纜是不是應該加強或矽纜要做加強類似這樣的機制我們是沒有所以你在這個環境再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制當中其實是有缺失的"},{"start":16419.243,"end":16433.995,"text":"那再生人員場域的數據監理機制台電公司回覆給本席的我這邊都是你們的文字台電公司已經建立相關的管理架構跟運作規模其實這是人員署管你們人員署就說那台電來管"},{"start":16437.037,"end":16458.832,"text":"那我也講到這個能源署是有公權力的他不管你叫台電先是先行要台電去管全國的那不可能他沒有公權力啊所以他維護給本席的台電公司已經進入相關的管理架構跟這個運作模式了涵蓋配電級跟輸電級的各再生能源數據的監控跟管理好所以才確保了各再生能源的穩定並往跟電網喔好所以台電只重視什麼"},{"start":16467.358,"end":16484.579,"text":"發電跟設備這本來就是他的專業啊他的專業在哪裡他的專業不在於我是不是自然環境的變化因素會影響我的發電跟設備的關聯性重點是這個所以你的監理機制跟管理機制是只管發電跟設備"},{"start":16486.661,"end":16507.795,"text":"我們期待的剛才歷任的包括剛才昭緯所講的我們的風水陣會不會怎麼影響我的發電跟是不是你是沒有辦法做監理跟管理的好那你們的回文那是這樣啦台電的監控之管理其實都是以電力出發這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失"},{"start":16509.156,"end":16526.023,"text":"不能說缺失啦 就應該在經濟的部分 而非環境影響為優先你們的監控機制回文叫什麼 依台電公司等等等等 這麼長的一個原則要求再生林園廠將資料回傳至調度中心喔這個資料中心只包括什麼 資料只有氣象資料我這個是光電廠 我只有收集這個太陽光"},{"start":16532.845,"end":16540.95,"text":"那太陽光當中的光電廠你只收集太陽光那你有沒有想到我的有效日照有效日照我降雨會不會影響有效日照我風力會不會影響這個光電廠的設備我的強震跟強風會不會影響這個光電廠的各項的結構安全"},{"start":16552.757,"end":16567.875,"text":"其實是沒有的 部長其實這我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性我就是因為光天我只收集光那之前的其他的降雨 風力 強震等環境因素就沒有了所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷"},{"start":16569.517,"end":16577.964,"text":"那你的監理機制當中除了氣象資料的單項之外其他的都是電力了什麼有效電力瞬間值 無效電力瞬間值這本來就是台電他的強項那這個東西跟我的環境影響跟我的電力有沒有關聯 沒有"},{"start":16586.172,"end":16615.348,"text":"好那你的管理機制呢台電只做到什麼他說我要求了各再生人員廠裝置相關的電力保護措施我怎麼保護電力嘛如果遇到強大我怎麼保護電力所以呢他這邊講的就比如說電壓控制頻率響應及故障穿越能力其實還是一樣他還是講電所以相關的監理跟管理都是以電為出發缺乏電廠安全跟環境影響進行科學管理"},{"start":16617.769,"end":16621.071,"text":"我們再來看青苔這邊已經形成青苔的丹納斯風災它形成了範圍性的天然災害也凸顯再生人員不是僅有電力供應應該被管理我們來看這幾個盲點"},{"start":16636.32,"end":16665.116,"text":"台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身過去的台電都是單一電廠獨立作業他具備完整的應變能力這其實是真的要感謝台電他怎麼樣的完整的應變能力他這次當中更凸顯了還有充足的備品隨時待命的輪值人員緊急應變的機制這更是對於我們的民營再生人員廠有沒有這些東西沒有"},{"start":16666.212,"end":16668.114,"text":"我們是沒有的所以綠能電廠是分散場域而且是基礎設施收拾未完善的地點譬如說我們都是要農業貧瘠之地或者是相關的地處偏遠"},{"start":16682.97,"end":16699.405,"text":"所以呢更在這些民營當中的地點的這樣的一個特性之外我缺乏人員駐點應變我沒有這些民營黨是沒有人員駐點的那更不要說他對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響的多項變數在綠能電廠是完全沒有好那我人員數"},{"start":16702.228,"end":16718.11,"text":"你不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制我已經質詢兩次了其實你應該要這個能源電廠你說環境部各自的電廠做要核准你要做環境影響評估做完之後就沒事了"},{"start":16719.111,"end":16725.797,"text":"本期希望的是你要統籌這些電廠的環境影響不穩固之後的數據人員數做全國的統籌隨時的調整之後你20年期到了你要做換證要做延展了"},{"start":16735.686,"end":16741.889,"text":"你是不是要做一下評估一下 我要延展我的氣候條件 極端氣候條件什麼的變化我應該怎麼樣的各個設施當中 我應該要怎麼的再加嚴的要求呢所以我期待的就是你的環境影響評估 每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做但是呢 做完之後就沒事了 繳報告給環境部就可以了"},{"start":16760.239,"end":16773.27,"text":"之後沒有啊誰要來做監理你要去環境部去監理你的電廠嗎不可能啊那你只有人員署啊你不能拋給台電台電哪有能力去管所有民營電廠跟地方政府不可能所以這個人員署就應該是要統籌所有民營電廠的一個整個的這個數據的監控跟管理那地方政府本身沒有電力專業啊"},{"start":16787.802,"end":16798.6,"text":"那台電又不具公權力啊所以能源署你現在不收集掌握資料就無法做決策的參考現在也無法面對問題之外你未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制"},{"start":16802.355,"end":16806.678,"text":"我們在兼顧再生人員與居民用電這邊本席有一個要求全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入了5600億但這次風災凸顯了電網末端輸送電網末端輸送遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱所以請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性"},{"start":16829.412,"end":16846.15,"text":"因地制宜規劃電網方案並納入行政院的二次人員轉型這是按照媒體講因為我不曉得你的二次人員轉型的細部計畫是什麼我只看你爆派的你的二次人員轉型吶包含的是多元綠能深度節能"},{"start":16848.492,"end":16861.039,"text":"儲能技術應用核能安全本席要求你要把這樣的一個末端電網電網末端輸送的這個方案納入二次電網要全國區域性喔靠山靠海靠城市靠偏鄉這個全國你比如說雲嘉南這次最重他全部都平延他的這個區域特性的結果你的電網規劃是什麼"},{"start":16875.306,"end":16881.489,"text":"那如果針對我們三區包括我高雄市三區這個是面積幾乎佔了我的高雄的一半以上那你這個部分它的電網又要怎麼的規劃所以你在這個電網末端尤其它是對我民生是最急切的"},{"start":16892.614,"end":16919.339,"text":"你們之前5600億是在全國的區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡但是在這個末端跟我名聲最主要最有感的電力的輸送你們有沒有規劃 沒有所以本席要求這個部分你要重新的來重視而且納入二次能源的轉型 因為要經費啊這個要經費啊 你不能全部都給地方啊全部給台電 那台電又更是更要倒了"},{"start":16920.439,"end":16942.264,"text":"那最後本席具體要求對於這個再生能源安全性的穩定性的強烈主張所以要求兩件事情要求經濟部能源署檢討更新你的再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制第二個規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案這是新的方案"},{"start":16943.544,"end":16971.069,"text":"那以維持再生能源跟我居民安全居民的用電安全這是雙重保障所以部長你怎麼看報告委員我想你所垂詢的這一個部分我們都有在檢討那這一次的這個我想因為氣候變遷造成了這一次比較嚴重的傷害也是我們一個學習的樣本那我們會以這一些比較脆弱的部分我們會來強化我想這一次的這個經驗"},{"start":16972.549,"end":16998.691,"text":"我們會把所有的結構剛才你在垂詢的這個包括這個floating的這個系統確實在結構上面我們過去雖然有技師簽證過但是還是沒有辦法耐到時機急風所以我們會從這個上面來學習將來會把這些東西全部都來強化希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶能夠跟使用電的這個部分沒有這個斷電的這樣的一個"},{"start":17001.694,"end":17013.606,"text":"雨綠這樣的一個困擾往前往前部長我想的我不是只有針對floating的部分來來往前往前這個不能動好再往前好這個"},{"start":17014.949,"end":17042.595,"text":"好 我講的不是只有針對那個滯洪池喔我說以光電廠為例主要收集的是有效日照你光是你的數據跟管理你本身就要做調整跟增加了嘛我們都會 我們會來這個考慮因為現在極端氣候嘛造成的這個變異非常的大那我們會來做這一方面的強化所以這樣的這個你們的這個管理跟監控機制的數據你們這是有發文的喔有真的是欸 這個你們為什麼不動啊"},{"start":17044.144,"end":17053.281,"text":"目前的監控機制是有環境部他們在做那我們會來討論到底哪個部分要再加強這個機制不是環境部 是人員署人員署講個話吧"},{"start":17056.568,"end":17081.977,"text":"還是台電自己發布的我跟委員報告那個剛剛講的那幾塊因為涉及到電力調度的部分因為台電必須要知道說那個附近區域他到底光源可以發的怎麼樣所以台電他在每一天前一天他都會做一些預測所以他必須要要求說那些數據要可以提供給台電做調度"},{"start":17082.897,"end":17107.668,"text":"簡單啦 你要不要更新你這樣的再生人員場域各級數據管理機制這個是你們的一個對 這個部分我們會再跟台電檢討說這個後續要怎麼樣但是也跟委員澄清一下那個環評的部分環評的部分只要做完環評環境部就會去做監督那我們的演員署就會負責追蹤這個是法令上規定我們這個已經大概做了二十幾年了跟委員補充報告一下"},{"start":17107.708,"end":17123.926,"text":"追蹤啊 所以那你追蹤當中有做數據的分析嗎有 那個數據我們有尤其是你主責還是環境部主責追蹤的部分我們會把數據整理出來以後會將結果報到環境部所以這是錯的嘛沒有 法規是這樣規定的那你要調整法規啊你這個法規是"},{"start":17128.73,"end":17131.291,"text":"所以這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點啦當然是你人員署啊那這個法你可以改啊"},{"start":17157.328,"end":17161.369,"text":"我是點問題 我不講 反正最後罵的是你 但是本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨罵的是本執政黨啊 你這個電廠的數據你推給環境部 環境部收到這個數據之後他說對電廠會有什麼的衝擊 然後他再告訴你 你不是多此一舉嗎"},{"start":17180.812,"end":17185.596,"text":"所以數據的分析跟你相關設備的這個因應的機制當然是你數據的分析包括日照我說光是一個光電廠光是它的下雨就會影響日照它的風力也會影響你的基礎結構包括你的強震包括都會影響結構這結構有你的土木結構你的建築的你的這個設備的結構都會影響啊"},{"start":17210.916,"end":17213.642,"text":"那就算這個數據不是你分析嗎 它只呈現這個數據而已啊我要說兩件事了 有關"},{"start":17219.977,"end":17247.736,"text":"這個電廠的營運的部分的資料我們自己會分析那個我們也會tag那不足的部分我們會檢討那這是委員說的第一塊第二塊有關環境監測數據是當初環境部他在環境影響評估審查的結論所以那個部分我們必須要報依環境影響評估法報到環境部去環境部就最後所以這是兩塊事情跟我們報告環境影響評估內的所有的數據你的環評所做的所有數據你都有百分百的監控嗎"},{"start":17250.42,"end":17266.71,"text":"會依照環評法最後的結論他要求我們目的使用的結論要做追蹤的部分我們會請業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有他環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依他的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦"},{"start":17268.411,"end":17281.542,"text":"對 你的結論就是說你有掌握 我在意的是你的結論的數據有沒有去做分析第一個是你的結論有沒有 只是依法嘛 那有沒有需要增加也許他業者做了10項 但是你最後監控的只有6項你依照規定的是6項 可是你發現到 我其實是要這10項我全部都要繼續監控的喔好 第二個 這個監控的彼此之間的關係 我的這個對"},{"start":17293.271,"end":17318.977,"text":"天然資源再生能源是來自天然資源啊所以天然資源對於這個你這個整個風場整體風場的影響這才是你主則我在意的是你的數據的完備性跟你的這個影響的這個數據的交叉的分析這才是重點這才叫做科學管理啊科學科學數據科學管理啊你要做到這點那是不是要檢討呢有沒有檢討的必要我應該是說我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是"},{"start":17322.563,"end":17326.728,"text":"是不是要檢討啊這個部分我們好那就是如果你要檢討你要多久"},{"start":17327.867,"end":17335.03,"text":"你就能夠要去更新你的再生人員場域更新數據的監理機制啊跟委員報告一下 這個因為我們現在像太陽光電 風力這些我們其實都會隨著這個環境變遷去持續做檢討所以這個需要一點時間 這個我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告好 OK 沒問題 我也不逼你時間 再來你的電網末端輸送的電網任性 這個是台電講的話"},{"start":17355.256,"end":17381.303,"text":"向委員報告那因為這次我們也看到風災造成的這個災害這個災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣就是十六十七級風所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的我們有分短期 中期 長期都會做一些因應那部長有一些指示那我們會盡速來辦理你對於本期講的電網末端輸送我最在意這個因為這跟我民生最有關係"},{"start":17382.883,"end":17401.561,"text":"對 我們不管你那個 你花了五千六百億我跟你講 人民是無感的但是對於你我都知這個是很重要的但是現在對人民最有感的就是我的跟我民生最末端的那個電網的一個脆弱性才是讓我民眾對於政府覺得非常的不信任就會導致說 啊這個是你的人員政策就會跳得太快了"},{"start":17407.867,"end":17421.904,"text":"那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔 就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入"},{"start":17426.61,"end":17429.391,"text":"那你那5600億花在哪裡我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法但我相信這個是誤導式的質詢方法那民眾聽得下去聽不下去絕對聽得下去因為你花了5600億可是這5600億不是花在跟我民生最有關係的電網末端嗎就是我家前面那個電線港你不能倒啊"},{"start":17449.656,"end":17460.822,"text":"因為一倒就是影響到我家人民在意的是這個啊那這個我希望你對於全國性做個盤點做一個專案也許這個整個你盤點完後出來需要三千億比如說"},{"start":17462.15,"end":17488.876,"text":"我認為這是新的 從雲加南當中這是新的方案而且是靠山靠海 靠水 不管靠山靠海 或者城鄉之間這才是新的話 本席講的這個是新的方案所以你覺得這個是不是應該 你要去想一下 評估一下這個是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端的輸送方案才對啊是 我們會評估 因為部長有指示 我們會評估整個短中長期都會出來好 謝謝"},{"start":17491.067,"end":17502.289,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請陳聽飛委員助詢答謝謝主席我們先請內政部董事長"},{"start":17509.358,"end":17532.01,"text":"市長我先問你這是你們所公布的20平方公尺以上衛台100平方公尺是補助5萬元100平方公尺以上是補助10萬元那請問20平方公尺跟100平方公尺到底污損的狀況我要以補助5萬或是10萬這是誰認定"},{"start":17535.523,"end":17540.566,"text":"這是公所來聆聽喔?公所來聆聽,好,來,他要怎麼聆聽?這是3坪,就是說6坪到,6坪要30坪的差別,就是說你的署定,如果是6坪大小的破空,還是說你的...市長,你這樣說,就是你沒有去到之前去看,是,苦公所要怎麼跟我們聆聽?"},{"start":17557.165,"end":17575.466,"text":"你今天你拿了這些20平方公尺跟100平方公尺他今天屋頂破了到底這個是20平方公尺還是100平方公尺到底他是要把自己再繼續打掉打到100平方公尺 因為都不能用了啊他不論"},{"start":17576.247,"end":17592.58,"text":"是掉了一個我們就是憑照片照片之後你有照相有記錄你們不要這樣說你們都說憑照片可是你知道嗎地方的區公所承辦人員也跟你們一樣都是公務人員你叫他去認定這個"},{"start":17594.261,"end":17615.154,"text":"他怎麼去認定 他拿的照片 現在都要求說喔 沒沒沒 你要去看你叫人 叫工去處理 看你怎麼處理阿不然你今天只有一個照片 你知道都造成大家很大的麻煩所以你根本重減 重寬 重塑 根本就是口號嘛"},{"start":17616.075,"end":17644.878,"text":"沒有跟委員報告我們一定是努力去這樣處理去做就是說不是你們努力是區公所的承辦人員你們叫基層的承辦人員去承擔這個壓力不是所有的照片資料回傳之後我們就會來認定有你們認定你剛剛又跟我說有區公所認定區公所那邊認定就可以了他只要照冊就可以了照冊啊相片照冊對不對好啊那我現在就問你啊我屋頂"},{"start":17645.939,"end":17647.983,"text":"我屋頂已經在流汗 我的蝦三十一、三二月的蝦都燒開了它燒五片、燒六片 基本上那幾片都沒用了"},{"start":17657.452,"end":17675.806,"text":"你們可能不知道什麼叫三合院 你們也不知道什麼叫廈柱廈柱既要鬆動之後 它整片就不會動了那今天造完之後 請問要怎麼認定它也是要整片挖它沒有整片的話沒有辦法 那請問這是20平方公尺還是100平方公尺"},{"start":17678.885,"end":17695.277,"text":"我們這是未住經的部分啦什麼叫住經 未住經就是說你如果想來 你如果想來 沒錯你們是以房子嘛 港鐵的保溫是另外一個保溫有去處理的嗎 沒有啦我們有修善補助的機制 是的"},{"start":17696.298,"end":17719.236,"text":"市長我現在已經跟你講了 這是未註金所以我們要從快 從速 從簡 從寬 對不對所以你講的嘛 這是未註金 對不對所以你要讓基層很清楚 這是未註金可是因為你們有這個叫20平方公尺跟100平方公尺這個部分就會給基層很大的壓力因為要寫什麼"},{"start":17722.199,"end":17731.972,"text":"我如果給了他那別人去檢舉我會不會像88風災一樣又要去調查局或是要去地檢署去被問話"},{"start":17734.577,"end":17753.269,"text":"院長已經只是從寬從幽我們就是會從寬從幽你們不要再從寬從幽重檢你們要讓基層人員能夠安心他沒有安心他會設計出很多你要求的文件這些文件就會綁住了所有的民眾"},{"start":17755.595,"end":17766.143,"text":"我今天跟你講就是說 請你們去了解一下我們從地方 每一天我們都在區公所我們都在區公所 這樣子繞來繞去那你今天你要承辦人員去認定這個你們也給他很確認的一個方向他會擔心 就會要求很多的資料你知道要寫七張嗎 要寫七張嗎"},{"start":17782.219,"end":17800.648,"text":"這不是我們的規定這是台南市政府的規定所以你們要溝通嘛那為什麼會那為什麼他們要寫到7張欸 環的啊因為你所謂的20平方公尺跟100平方公尺你要叫我界定所以我一直在談的就是說你們要同理心"},{"start":17802.011,"end":17818.407,"text":"你們在中央你們有沒有想到在地方區公所這些承辦人員你要叫他去認定他有壓力自然會想出很多的方式當他想出很多方式我們的重減重寬重塑就變是一個夢"},{"start":17819.668,"end":17843.402,"text":"不可能是這樣因為到目前為止你知道我們的電話都被打爆了每次下去到基層都是說委員他一次叫我們寫那麼多單要我們這個東西要我們那個東西我們怎麼有可能好那我再拜託市長這個部分拜託你馬上我們今天下午會跟台南市政府做釐清確認所有的資料為住經"},{"start":17848.528,"end":17863.636,"text":"對 這是衛助金 記得這一句 衛助金衛助金就是我們要幫他及時雨你知道我們到第一線那個阿公阿嬤我們叫他說 你要不要不要住他說沒有 這是野豬我說 阿嬤要怎麼做他說 要給我暑睡你們可以想像這樣的感覺嗎"},{"start":17874.17,"end":17881.537,"text":"我們這幾天在那邊看 我們看到了新疆 他們在跟我們講說要給我們保養很多豬 我們是要怎麼保真的現在已經第15天了不要再為了這個事件 然後好像一直在雞同鴨講鬼打牆來我請農業部陳部長"},{"start":17901.724,"end":17915.5,"text":"部長 我告訴你 你們漁業署署長真的很專業他下去基層說明的時候 我真的要幫你撈下去可能我撈下去會害到他啦 但是真的要撈下去啦"},{"start":17917.332,"end":17944.884,"text":"他從救助補助到低利貸款每一個細項就講得很清楚可是講清楚還是有些我們必須協助的當時候我們去說明的時候有防鳥網有養殖用的竹筏這個要列入補助當下我們也請相關單位調了資料這個進度如何防鳥網養殖用竹筏這都是工具啦"},{"start":17946.639,"end":17955.983,"text":"這種用心會牽掛啦所以這個部分到底我們現在怎麼樣第一時間我們在現場跟台南市與會還有區與會一起談論的事情"},{"start":17960.157,"end":17978.351,"text":"來我們部長我跟委員說明就是因為整個漁業生產或農業生產以後它的細目非常多那你這邊提到的防鳥網有沒有這個防鳥網我們本來在96年就沒有在補助不過我們在這次的設計裡面可以在一些相關的項目裡面去容納"},{"start":17980.511,"end":17996.336,"text":"還有養殖用竹筏沒有關係啦其實你只要能夠讓他們有機會去得到應有的補助這都屬於工具就是我養殖過程必須用的在這一次全部都銷毀了那養殖用的竹筏呢"},{"start":17997.476,"end":18013.743,"text":"這個一樣喔 我們也是用其他的方式齁 去把他放在裡面我沒辦法 去哄啊 想哄啊這個都是他必要的 所以這個部分就是用你們可以用的方式去協助他們"},{"start":18015.015,"end":18038.66,"text":"對 我們會用這種方式處理 但是我們不會明列說防鳥網因為這個一列的話 可能列的非常非常多我知道 項目非常多 可能就是有一個帶瓜的就是我在養殖當中需要用的工具這一次都毀損了 都毀損了所以我可以來申請補助 這個部分一定要因為真的是非常淒慘我們用專案補助會比較相對單純"},{"start":18041.061,"end":18066.607,"text":"用專案補助啦 這個拜託然後再來就是養雞場還有很多我們相類似的畜牧場這個部長 來我讓你看一下這個它的主幹都歪了然後呢 它的整個地基都扭曲了這個去到我們區公所報說沒有啦 你這裡沒有20%啦"},{"start":18068.715,"end":18087.566,"text":"他的主幹都歪了然後整個整個都到位置都大挪移了我跟威仁報告就是蓄情場的部分分兩個部分一個是他裡面飼養的那個雞隻這一件事情對那其他的我們蓄舍的部分我們用剩養補助沒錯變成八成"},{"start":18088.807,"end":18104.555,"text":"所以他只要有像你這樣的認定的照相的事實的話我們都會用專案方式去補助沒有所謂的百分之二十這件事沒有啦所以這個部分要解釋清楚就是說如果他重建可以補助到八成"},{"start":18107.057,"end":18121.093,"text":"農民的部分然後呢再來就是我們這一次有很多養豬養雞養鴨他有續養登記但是沒有牧場登記因為這有很多的故事我們專門補助的時候就不會處理這個"},{"start":18123.115,"end":18151.032,"text":"因為救助才會去看合法性但是專案補助的話我們只是希望讓農民盡快的能夠恢復到正常的部分所以如果說在這個部分的人這一次會用專案補助重觀認定只要是他有修繕的部分拿了相關的收據他有經營的事實我們就會來處理對 拿什麼資料去跟區公所申報這個相對的就是第一個照相照相是最容易的"},{"start":18152.199,"end":18175.619,"text":"它有一個入積的那個證明嘛這個東西是非常容易去取得的有這些證明你們就可以有相對的補助這個你要跟區公署說補助的部分不像說救助的部分有時間的限制那補助的部分我想我們只要因為大家都在忙於清理嘛那補助的部分我們那個時間會拉長對會拉長嘛所以部長拜託你"},{"start":18179.142,"end":18194.384,"text":"就是說因為這一次我們的專案補助真的很多我也常常跟我們的農民漁民說你們今天不管怎麼樣就先照相照相完就是先申報因為我們這一次中央了解地方"},{"start":18195.225,"end":18218.024,"text":"真的災害影響太多了我們農業漁業還有我們的民眾這一次要復原的時間非常的長所以就先照相先申報我們自然在專案會一件一件出來不要影響到自己的權利所以我也看到了我們這一次真的很多的專案有別於以往所以"},{"start":18219.225,"end":18233.841,"text":"補助的部分是沒有這些條件的所以也希望我們相關單位要很瞭解區公所基本上就要瞭解這個一定要跟台南市政府說那我有一個部分那個經濟部長 謝謝經濟部長郭部長"},{"start":18245.138,"end":18258.304,"text":"其實我2016年就已經向林全院長爭取台南市要納入電纜地下化因為當時候我們經過了很重要的有三個颱風"},{"start":18260.177,"end":18288.194,"text":"所以那時候也造成大停電40萬戶累積下來40萬戶當時候所以我才會在2016年向林全院長爭取但是現在基本上我們的動作幾乎是一小步一小步一小步而且這個一小步是有一點在往後因為我們的經費不夠所以部長其實從這一次"},{"start":18290.195,"end":18315.007,"text":"這一次我們的丹納斯颱風說真的這是極端氣候所造成的沒有錯可是就像過去我們好雨當我們要求百年洪水位所有的這也是我們經濟部負責的我們的水利標準都用到達百年洪水位整個做調整也是因為88風災所以一次的大雨造成整個帶淹水"},{"start":18316.568,"end":18344.663,"text":"那我們這一次其實丹納斯颱風是我們一個警惕有可能因為我們的極端氣候未來颱風都是風速無法可以控管沒有人可以想要說16級風到19級風所以部長這個電纜地下化我們的主幹線一定要先做我們主幹線沒有做就像這一次全部倒了2000多支的電線桿"},{"start":18346.127,"end":18352.435,"text":"都是從我們的主幹線從主幹線到內 然後再加護你要多少時間"},{"start":18353.692,"end":18381.713,"text":"所以我們是不是應該有一套的專案在我們主幹線的部分應該從我們這個地下化的一個編列預算去做處理你認為呢報告委員我想這些都是科技的問題啦我們會專業評估啦能夠做地下化我們就做地下化因為地勢比較低的啊淹水後大廈更大所以那個地勢高的我們當然可以做地下化"},{"start":18382.313,"end":18401.661,"text":"那最低是比較低的黑的有淹水可能性的部分我們要考慮有什麼其他的工法來處理部長我當然不是叫你全面啊有些不能做地下化有些要做地下化那我們今天如果把地下化的一個範圍加大"},{"start":18402.961,"end":18412.01,"text":"那是不是這一次我們就不會有這麼多兩千多隻的電線桿第一時間我們到現場去看的時候我是從這個安南區到旗鼓一路看看到這個貨幣牌倒了"},{"start":18419.938,"end":18443.628,"text":"那太可怕了一直到嘉義 2000多隻所以我一直要講的你們第一時間可能沒有想到會這麼嚴重所以我們要期待的是這一次是我們的一個警惕真的是警惕因為只要有一次一次極端氣候阻造成了一個氣候的怪胎有可能以後都會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":18445.242,"end":18455.966,"text":"所以部長我拜託這是我2016年就已經向林泉院長爭取台南市要納入電纜地下化當時候就是三個颱風有40萬戶但是這一次呢這一次有幾萬戶一百萬對"},{"start":18463.223,"end":18474.968,"text":"而且是一次那是三個颱風累積這個是一次所以部長我們一定要盡快提出我們這一次的一個檢討方案多久我們的檢討方案我們這個檢討方案當然會"},{"start":18482.062,"end":18505.309,"text":"那個台電要兩個月的做巨大的評估兩個月沒關係我們可以等你兩個月做出一個真正能夠除了任性也可以真正讓人民安心的一個方法跟方式跟專案跟預算的編列我相信沒有人敢擋這一次這樣子如果敢擋我跟他拼命謝謝好 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感谢主席本期邀请我们经济部的郭部长还有我们台电郭部长曾董事长曾董事长"},{"start":21.289,"end":35.06,"text":"議員好部長 你也有召集在庫那邊我想你應該感受到這次災情那麼慘其中這個斷電是一個非常重要的因素因為你如果停電在這邊的在庫很多地方是要停水"},{"start":37.793,"end":66.202,"text":"因為他們的水啊 水壓如果不夠都要靠那個抽水摩托所以你停電停水我們的電話條款都倒了所以啊 網路訊號 手機訊號他們都怕我們的電話鎖了所以這回倒了這次就是停電停水又停掉了電信訊號所以造成了可能是有史以來最慘重的災情之一啦現在大家都在說那如何強化"},{"start":68.143,"end":83.437,"text":"我們的電網的韌性 我想這倒不是供電的問題 是電網的問題如果強化我們電網的韌性 譬如說電能地下化電能地下化確實是一個方法 但是我想不是所有的答案"},{"start":84.578,"end":95.386,"text":"我跟董事長討論一下我以前在我選區我們台電也在外雙屋就是平安公路台17層這就是台南市的南區 溪丘到萬里當中這以前風太大就跳電了因為它的電話條都站在台時機的旁邊颱風一來風很大 電線都會戳斷電話條沒倒就戳斷電線"},{"start":114.113,"end":138.023,"text":"所以後來這個地方就跟北亞發就解決這個問題啦那這是2016年我跟我們台電爭取的那時候才六千多萬不過現在恐怕以目前的供料這個會很貴了啦這道理在這裡我想董事長跟我們台電的總經理你們大概幾乎都進駐在災區嘛你應該感同身受啦那要不要來強化我們的電網啊我想"},{"start":143.904,"end":170.914,"text":"對 電纜如果地下化 沿水的地區就不行了是不是這樣 我不定有時間給你答詢但我要跟你 我的意見請你帶回去啦對齁 那不一樣的地方目前可以優先電纜地下化 台北現在有沒有計畫來 那個我跟跟委員報告幾個事情 第一個事情就是我們主幹線一定要先強化因為大家都用"},{"start":171.654,"end":197.341,"text":"單一的解方就是說 認為地下化就可以解決問題但地下化如果我們這些設備被水泡了那個解決問題要更久因為淹水地方 電能地下化更麻煩2018年那個西部海岸淹水那個光是抽水就抽了七八天那個七八天以後才來復電 那個事情會更麻煩所以我跟委員報告幾個事啊齁您剛才講可以地下化的地方可能都是要路基比較穩定 好的道路"},{"start":198.061,"end":210.466,"text":"我們來優先辦理那我們就很確定的來討論我認為台10及台19省道啦 省得一波排水就做得更好這補免什麼 能夠由誰來做啦我認為台電你應該先規範出可以遞交的所在地的行政"},{"start":216.388,"end":236.296,"text":"跟委員報告這一點我們會提啦因為部長都指示我們要趕快做這件事因為這件事大家都關注這個需要跨部會一起來處理啦因為交通部也在我其實是因為這個牽涉到省道我們過去有一起的合作經驗我們有沒有辦法怎麼做好這件事因為連電信的我覺得這個是可能可以合作的事"},{"start":241.618,"end":255.228,"text":"不淹水的地方然後又有高壓阻線阻幹管通過的地方要行走啦 要行走地下化啦那這當中當然牽扯到跨部會尤其你省道齁因為你如果對人地下化第一個你要交通維護啦"},{"start":257.309,"end":276.064,"text":"要有交尾的問題嘛對你啊 路面你要再 喔 要再停泊嘛有路權 有施工的問題嘛所以都是你們兩個部位應該要好好的互相協助的啦這樣好不好那另外啦 來 我再請教一下台電啦如果不能地下化的地方啦那應該要強化啦 提高啦 抗風"},{"start":277.245,"end":286.617,"text":"的這個急速啦對謝謝委員啦我覺得這件事情是我們因為地下化要花時間我們在這個因為颱風現在7月就來我們你要做一些事情我先跟委員報告就是說我們現在會在重要的"},{"start":296.489,"end":300.573,"text":"那個主要的那個電感上面因為比方說上面要裝開關就是切換的開關或者是有變壓器的我們會先把它快速的先換成抗風強度比較高的那在一排裡面如果有幾支這種抗風強度更高的鐵塔電感"},{"start":317.168,"end":331.251,"text":"他就不會他就可以讓整排導斷的範圍縮小可能一排原來可能20隻我們中間如果差了4、5隻他就比較不會導斷這麼多這個是我們這幾天跟同仁我們現在緊急在做我們已經準備要緊急採購更強化的電感來做這個"},{"start":338.368,"end":360.342,"text":"類似就是中央隔斷災害擴大的一些工作好 再來喔因為這台電話條都要2400萬元喔那有些倒掉的喔 我也請台電經理幫忙啦你像現在還有一些喔 還沒有移走的喔我知道你現在也缺機具啦 缺人力啦那你要自己去想辦法克服啦要趕快把這個倒下來的電話條趕快幫忙啦這都看得乾淨啦 是 那個"},{"start":363.464,"end":370.926,"text":"大部分都移了 現在在部落裡面還沒移完 村落裡面都還沒移你當然先刷大樓啦 但是裡面還有很多 我拜託你請台電趕快把這些倒塌的電線趕快移走好 謝謝好 謝謝曾董事長另外我來 部長您先休息我來請農業部陳部長"},{"start":391.13,"end":411.524,"text":"這次第三期的風災農業史詩是差不多全國最多,差不多全國的四成五百那其中我現在發現,你的農漁業的補助標準沒有一樣你現在一不兩制,你現在農業補,你都免限刊現在也可以開始去公所受理申報、訂訂你現在漁業史不是這樣,台南也很像"},{"start":416.653,"end":434.478,"text":"那我現在接到的反應啦你漁業署免限的條件你根本無法寫 怎麼可能呢幾個人做得到你現在免限的條件 要有水產履歷 產銷履歷還是有天然災害補助金錢救助你今年還沒有啊 有多少人死了對不對今年有死了也很少啦第三 要有漁業的保險"},{"start":443.742,"end":465.69,"text":"這三個啦 產銷履歷也好啦 漁業保險 本來就是你漁業署要推廣漁業署推廣的績效你自己知道啦你看很多人有保養很少有 我數數給你看啦是酒瓣的零啦 是三百一的五啦 頭髮便宜是五啦吳國瑜的頭髮金額只有一啦我如果請求啦 你現在免現金提出三個條件"},{"start":470.248,"end":491.844,"text":"當然不可能嘛我跟委員報告一下 這可能有一點誤解喔基本上我們免限幹的時候就是你只要能夠證明你有養殖的事實 有沒有這個才算的 但是這三個就是說因為這三個在我們的資料庫有很容易就能夠查證啦但是你如果說只有這三個來來來 我跟你講你所謂的 如果這三個條件你達不到"},{"start":492.708,"end":517.599,"text":"沒有 不是因為這三個裡面我們資料庫都有所以很容易查到沒有的時候你只要去證明你有財神跟養殖的事實這個你拿包括你如果有去放羊這個資料拿過來我們會去查證我們先來講一個確定現在有的公所他不受理第一個"},{"start":519.192,"end":535.722,"text":"我們如果沒有打架,你剛才說的那三個條件,我如果用照片,你現在去寫那些假的,那四個字都會發臭嘛,對不對?所以應該是如果我有拍照純正,我有養殖的事實,你就要認定了嘛,這樣農業跟漁業才會一致嘛"},{"start":539.504,"end":568.018,"text":"我也非常同意委員所說的就是說漁業本身我如果是免限刊的話你只要去證明你有養殖的事實那養殖的事實你可以用APP的照相那公所如果願意認定就認定了或者是你剛才拿你因為我剛剛講的那三件我們的資料口都有你只要說你是成交履歷的我馬上調得到資料那你沒有的話你用照片也可以或者是你其他方式證明你有養殖那就可以了那這個部分我想我會再跟公所來溝通"},{"start":569.859,"end":590.769,"text":"好 那就按照部長你所說的另外有一個部分我認為要留意的在室內養殖的部分現在你做養殖也熟悉的那室內養殖並沒有在我們這次的補償範圍內我是不是請營業署 你看這裡都風災造成的嘛那營業署 你第一邊說的這個部分是不是應該要納進來"},{"start":594.076,"end":611.791,"text":"我覺得這個應該要放進去喔包括一些算是屬於設施啦 養殖的設施那養殖的設施如果農民的話我們一次性的都提高到八成喔這個部分我想我們會來處理好 你應該要把室內養殖爺納入好不好是好 要保證喔再給我們一分鐘喔那個內政部 內政部 來董事長"},{"start":618.747,"end":635.722,"text":"委員好市長我們現在行政院在災後重建是我們對民宅我們已經開始有你補貼對今天我們叫你出店鋪的大廈房就一萬五萬十萬就是六萬到三萬三萬以上但現在在庫我不知道你有沒有去過現場你有去過現場嗎在區現場我們署長有去過那裡補貼也去過了"},{"start":647.216,"end":652.2,"text":"現在民眾非常不滿,就是因為在我們在庫每天都要去三合院,三合院都一個門牌,每天都住更好,整個一定這樣"},{"start":666.46,"end":674.604,"text":"你現在你所謂他照你生涯的保証你是都依一個門牌為單位嘛你應該以戶數為單位啦你不能以門牌為單位啦我們會那個跟那個相關"},{"start":681.762,"end":689.109,"text":"我們是移戶來處理你看移戶是我的單位喔你有當時一個我之前去縣勘看有一個三合院大六戶的他們有水電灘也能證明嘛有沒有居住四十李幹事或是龔壽也都知道嘛這樣有沒有"},{"start":700.5,"end":713.688,"text":"跟委員報告我們基本上就是三合院就是他是多戶一門牌所以我們是一門牌一戶但是我們還是會以居住適時然後以破損的面積來做計算那做計算的方式我們就是按照破損的面積的狀況6坪到30坪是5萬"},{"start":717.25,"end":726.314,"text":"表柱都一樣啦 但是你要他負責就算啦是 我們會去處理你不可以他不擺為單位啦 因為他當時就不擺會打滾就好了這就不然你要趕快通知 因為現在是公所不受理多戶啦"},{"start":733.698,"end":733.718,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":933,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（12時2分）感謝主席，本席邀請經濟部郭部長，還有台電曾董事長。"],["主席：郭部長、曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，你也有跑去災區好幾次，我想你應該感受到這次災情那麼慘，其中斷電是一個非常重要的因素，如果停電，這次災區很多地方就會順便停水，因為他們的水壓不夠的話都要靠抽水馬達，所以除了停電、停水，我們的電線桿又都倒了，網路訊號、手機訊號也都走電線杆，所以就一起倒了，這次就是停電、停水又停掉電信訊號，造成可能是有史以來最慘重的災情之一。現在大家都在討論如何強化我們的電網韌性，這次不是供電的問題，是電網的問題，如何強化我們電網的韌性？很多人都提到比如電纜地下化，電纜地下化確實是一個方法，但是我想這不是所有的答案，這部分我是不是跟曾董事長討論一下？還是部長你要……","部長，以前台電曾經在我的選區濱海公路台17線，就是臺南市南區喜樹和灣里當中，這裡以前如果有颱風就會跳電，因為它的電線桿都立在濱海台17的旁邊，颱風一來風很大，電線都會扯斷，電線桿沒倒，電線一樣會扯斷，所以後來這個地方改地下化就解決這個問題，這是2016年我跟台電爭取的，那時候才六千多萬，不過現在以目前的工料來做恐怕會很貴。這次在災區，台電董事長跟總經理大概幾乎都進駐在災區，你應該感同身受，以後要怎麼來強化我們的電網？如果要電纜地下化，淹水的地區就不行，是不是這樣？我不一定有時間給你答詢，但我的意見請你帶回去，第一、不會淹水的地方目前可以優先電纜地下化，台電現在有沒有計畫？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告幾個事情，第一個事情就是我們的主幹線一定要先強護、強化，因為大家都用單一的解方，認為地下化就可以解決問題，但地下化這些設備如果泡水了，解決問題要更久。"],["林委員俊憲：淹水的地方電纜地下化更麻煩。"],["曾董事長文生：2018年西部海岸淹水，光是抽水就抽了7、8天，7、8天以後才來復電，那個事情會更麻煩，所以我跟委員報告幾個事，你剛才講可以地下化的地方可能都是要路基比較穩定、比較好的道路，我們來優先辦理。"],["林委員俊憲：我們就很確定地來討論。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["林委員俊憲：比如台17、台19、省道，省道一般的排水一定做得比較好，這個部分是不是可以優先來做？我覺得台電應該先規範出可以電纜地下化的地方要先做。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，這一點我們會提，部長指示我們要趕快做這件事，因為這件事大家都關注，這個需要跨部會一起來處理，今天交通部也在，因為這牽涉到省道，我們過去有一起合作的經驗，有辦法做好這件事，因為連電信的纜線……"],["林委員俊憲：來，交通部來一下……"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得這是可能可以合作的事。"],["林委員俊憲：第一、不淹水的地方、也有高壓主幹管通過的地方要先做地下化，這當中當然牽扯到跨部會，尤其是省道，因為如果電纜地下化，第一個，你要交通維護，有交維的問題；第二、要挖路面，還要重鋪，有路權、有施工的問題，這都是你們兩個部會應該要好好互相協助的，這樣好不好？另外，我再請教一下台電，如果不能地下化的地方，我們應該要強化、提高抗風的級數。"],["曾董事長文生：對，謝謝委員，我覺得這件事情是我們……因為地下化要花時間，颱風7月就來……"],["林委員俊憲：你們可以先做的就是要提升它抗風的級數，要先來提高。"],["曾董事長文生：我先跟委員報告，我們現在會在重要的、主要的電桿上面，比方說上面要裝開關，就是切換的開關或者是有變壓器的，我們會把它快速先換成抗風強度比較高的，在一排裡面如果有幾支這種抗風強度更高的電桿，就可以讓整排倒斷的範圍縮小，一排原來可能20支，我們中間如果插了4、5支，它就比較不會倒斷這麼多，這個是我們這幾天跟同仁……"],["林委員俊憲：這是台電可以自己做，也可以馬上做的，請台電同仁要先來做。"],["曾董事長文生：我們現在積極在做，而且我們現在已經準備要緊急採購更強化的電桿來做這個，類似就是中央隔斷災害擴大的一些工作。"],["林委員俊憲：好，再來，因為這次電線桿倒了差不多兩千四百多支，有些倒掉的，我也請台電趕快移走，現在還有一些沒有移走的，我知道你現在也缺機具、缺人力，但是你要自己去想辦法克服，把倒下來的電線桿趕快移走，倒了好幾千支。"],["曾董事長文生：是，大部分都移了，現在在部落裡面還沒移完的，我們儘快……"],["林委員俊憲：村落裡面都還沒移，你當然先移走大路的，但裡面還有很多，我拜託你請台電把這些倒塌的電線桿趕快移走，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝曾董事長，部長，你們先休息。另外，我來請農業部。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，這次臺南市的風災，農業損失差不多是全國最多，占全部的45%，其中我發現你的農漁業補助標準不一樣，你現在一部兩制，農業的部分現在都免現勘，區公所也可以開始受理申報等等，但漁業署不是這樣，臺南也有很多養魚的，我現在接到反映，漁業署免現勘的條件都亂寫，怎麼可能做？幾個人做得到？現在免現勘的條件要有養殖水產物產銷履歷，還要領有漁業天然災害現金救助，你今年也沒有，有哪幾個人領過？對不對？去年有領過的也很少。第三，要有漁業的保險，這三個不管是產銷履歷、漁業保險，這本來就是你漁業署要推廣，但是漁業署推廣的績效你自己知道，現在多少人有保險？很少人有！我拿數字給你看，養石斑魚的投保件數是0件，養虱目魚的投保件數是5件，養吳郭魚的投保件數只有1件。魚塭有好幾千口，現在免現勘要符合這三個條件，根本就不可能嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告一下，這可能有一點誤解，基本上免現勘只要能夠證明你有養殖和災損的事實，就這三個條件來講，因為這三個在我們的資料庫裡面有，很容易就能夠查證，但是你如果說符合這三個……"],["林委員俊憲：如果這三個條件達不到……"],["陳部長駿季：不是的，因為這三個在我們的資料庫裡面都有，所以很容易查到……"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，但很少！"],["陳部長駿季：如果沒有的話，你只要能夠證明你有災損和養殖的事實，包括你有去放養等等，相關資料拿過來，我們都會去查證，只是會比較慢而已。"],["林委員俊憲：我們現在講一個問題，有的公所不受理，如果沒有達到你剛才說的三個條件，我如果用照片……其實現在去現勘是多餘的，死魚早就都撈完了，因為這個會發臭對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以應該是如果我有拍照存證、我有養殖的事實，你們就要認定了，這樣農業跟漁業才會一致嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我也非常同意委員所說的，就是說漁業本身如果是免現勘的話，你只要證明你有養殖的事實就可以，而養殖的事實你可以用app的照相，公所如果願意認定就認定了，或者是你可以拿……因為我剛才說的三個條件在我們的資料庫裡面都有，你只要說你是產銷履歷的，我馬上調得到資料，如果沒有的話，你用照片也可以，或者是你用其他方式證明你有養殖就可以了。針對這個部分，我會再跟公所溝通。"],["林委員俊憲：好，就按照部長你所說的這樣。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員俊憲：另外，我覺得有一個部分漏掉了，也就是室內養殖的部分，現在魚塭也有室內的，但室內養殖並沒有在這次的補償範圍內，我想請漁業署看一下，這些都是風災造成的嘛！沒關係，雖然漁業署第一次公告時有遺漏，但這個部分是不是應該要納進來？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這個應該要放進去，包括一些養殖的設施，關於養殖設施我們一次性的都提高到八成，這個部分我們會來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：應該要把室內養殖也納入，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員俊憲：接下來我想請教內政部。"],["主席：請董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長，現在行政院的災後重建針對民宅已經開始有補貼了對嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["林委員俊憲：基本上就是按照屋頂破洞的大小分別補助1萬、5萬或10萬。"],["董次長建宏：就是從6坪到30坪或是30坪以上。"],["林委員俊憲：我不知道你有沒有去過災區現場？你有去過災區現場嗎？"],["董次長建宏：沒有，不過，署長有去過好幾次，部長也去過了。"],["林委員俊憲：但是他們今天都沒來，所以我只好跟你說，請你把本席的意見帶回去。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["林委員俊憲：現在民眾非常不滿，因為在災區有很多都是三合院，三合院只有一個門牌，但是裡面都住好幾戶，鄉下一定是這樣！現在你們的損害補償都是以門牌為單位，但本席認為應該要以戶數為單位，而不能以門牌為單位。"],["董次長建宏：我們是以戶來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：都以戶數為單位嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對，我們是以戶為單位。"],["林委員俊憲：我昨天去現勘，有一個三合院裡面住了六戶，首先他們有水電單可以證明，至於有沒有居住事實，里幹事或公所也都知道嘛！"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，三合院基本上是多戶一門牌，所以我們是一門牌一戶，但我們還是會以居住事實以及破損的面積來計算，有關計算的方式，我們就是按照破損面積的狀況，6坪到30坪是補助5萬，30坪以上……"],["林委員俊憲：標準都一樣，但是你要以戶數下去算。"],["董次長建宏：是，我們會處理。"],["林委員俊憲：你不能以門牌為單位。"],["董次長建宏：當然、當然……"],["林委員俊憲：因為他們就是一個門牌會住好幾戶。"],["董次長建宏：好，我們會以居住事實……"],["林委員俊憲：這樣好不好？這個部分你要趕快通知，因為現在公所不受理多戶，他們還是以門牌為單位。針對這個部分，中央和地方要趕快談好。"],["董次長建宏：好，我們來了解。"],["林委員俊憲：就按照我們今天所講的，應該要以戶數為單位。"],["董次長建宏：我們今天下午會開會來決定這些事情。"],["林委員俊憲：今天剛好有中央跟地方的協調會報嘛！"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這個部分請你在會議上面講清楚，這樣好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，下午會確定。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，現在請郭國文委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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你也都不能用了啊他不論"},{"start":76.724,"end":93.078,"text":"是掉了一個我們就是憑照片照片之後你有照相有記錄你們不要這樣說你們都說憑照片可是你知道嗎地方的區公所承辦人員也跟你們一樣都是公務人員你叫他去認定這個"},{"start":94.739,"end":115.63,"text":"他怎麼去認定 他拿的照片現在都要求說 喔 沒沒沒 你要去看你叫人 叫工去處理 看你怎麼處理阿不然你今天只有一個照片 你知道都造成大家很大的麻煩所以你根本重減 重寬 重塑 根本就是口號嘛"},{"start":116.55,"end":145.37,"text":"沒有跟委員報告我們一定是努力去這樣處理去做就是說不是你們努力是區公所的承辦人員你們叫基層的承辦人員去承擔這個壓力不是所有的照片資料回傳之後我們就會來認定有你們認定你剛剛又跟我說有區公所認定區公所那邊認定就可以了他只要照冊就可以了照冊啊相片照冊對不對好啊那我現在就問你啊我屋頂"},{"start":146.431,"end":149.237,"text":"我屋頂已經在流血了我的血三十一、三二月的血都流開了他流五瓶、流六瓶基本上那幾瓶都沒用了"},{"start":157.95,"end":176.284,"text":"你們可能不知道什麼叫三合院 你們也不知道什麼叫廈柱廈柱既要鬆動之後 它整片就不會動了那今天造完之後 請問要怎麼認定它也是要整片挖它沒有整片的話沒有辦法 那請問這是20平方公尺還是100平方公尺"},{"start":179.363,"end":195.537,"text":"我們這是衛助金的部分什麼叫助金衛助金就是說你如果受傷 衛助金啊沒錯你們是以防止嘛所以你的工廠的保溫工廠的保溫是另外一個保溫有去處理的嗎沒有啦我們有修繕補助的機制"},{"start":196.778,"end":219.714,"text":"市長我現在已經跟你講了 這是未註金所以我們要從快 從速 從簡 從寬 對不對所以你講的嘛 這是未註金 對不對所以你要讓基層很清楚 這是未註金可是因為你們有這個叫20平方公尺跟100平方公尺這個部分就會給基層很大的壓力因為要寫什麼"},{"start":222.677,"end":232.467,"text":"我如果給了他那別人去檢舉我會不會像88風災一樣又要去調查局或是要去地檢署去被問話"},{"start":236.412,"end":253.767,"text":"院長已經只是從寬從幽我們就是會從寬從幽你們不要再從寬從幽重檢你們要讓基層人員能夠安心他沒有安心他會設計出很多你要求的文件這些文件就會綁住了所有的民眾"},{"start":256.072,"end":266.62,"text":"我今天跟你講就是說 請你們去了解一下我們從地方 每一天我們都在區公所我們都在區公所 這樣子繞來繞去那你今天你要承辦人員去認定這個你們也給他很確認的一個方向他會擔心 就會要求很多的資料你知道要寫七張嗎 要寫七張嗎"},{"start":282.694,"end":301.126,"text":"這不是我們的規定 這是台南市政府的規定那為什麼他們要寫到7張 還的啦因為你所謂的20平方公尺跟100平方公尺你要叫我界定所以我一直在談的就是說 你們要同理心"},{"start":302.489,"end":318.882,"text":"你們在中央你們有沒有想到在地方區公所這些承辦人員你要叫他去認定他有壓力自然會想出很多的方式當他想出很多方式我們的重減重寬重塑就變是一個夢"},{"start":320.163,"end":343.899,"text":"不可能是這樣因為到目前為止你知道我們的電話都被打爆了每次下去到基層都是說委員他一次叫我們寫那麼多單要我們這個東西要我們那個東西我們怎麼有可能好那我再拜託市長這個部分拜託你馬上我們今天下午會跟台南市政府做釐清確認所有的資料未註金"},{"start":349.006,"end":364.112,"text":"對 這是衛助金 記得這一句 衛助金衛助金就是我們要幫他起死雨你知道我們到第一線那個阿公阿嬤我們叫他說 你要不要不要住他說沒有 這是野豬我說 阿嬤要怎麼做他說 要給他暑睡你們可以想像這樣的感覺嗎"},{"start":374.648,"end":393.965,"text":"我們這幾天在那邊看 我們看到了心情然後他在跟我們講說 要給我們保養很多豬 兩位是要怎麼保真的現在已經第15天了不要再為了這個事件 然後好像一直在雞同鴨講鬼打牆來我請農業部陳部長"},{"start":402.199,"end":416.71,"text":"部長,我告訴你,你們漁業署署長真的很專業他下去基層說明的時候,我真的要幫你下落可能我幫他下落會害到他啦但是真的要幫他下落啦"},{"start":417.81,"end":445.179,"text":"他從救助補助到低利貸款每一個細項就講得很清楚可是講清楚還是有些我們必須協助的當時候我們去說明的時候有防鳥網有養殖用的竹筏這個要列入補助當下我們也請相關單位調了資料這個進度如何防鳥網養殖用竹筏這都是工具啦"},{"start":447.117,"end":456.483,"text":"這種用心會牽掛啦所以這個部分到底我們現在怎麼樣第一時間我們在現場跟台南市與會還有區與會一起談論的事情"},{"start":460.635,"end":478.833,"text":"來我們部長我跟委員說明就是因為整個漁業生產或農業生產以後它的細目非常多那你這邊提到的防鳥網有沒有這個防鳥網我們本來在96年就沒有在補助不過我們在這次的設計裡面可以在一些相關的項目裡面去容納"},{"start":480.996,"end":496.833,"text":"還有養殖用竹筏沒有關係啦其實你只要能夠讓他們有機會去得到應有的補助這都屬於工具就是我養殖過程必須用的在這一次全部都銷毀了那養殖用的竹筏呢"},{"start":497.954,"end":514.241,"text":"這個一樣喔 我們也是用其他的方式去把他放在裡面我沒辦法去哄啊 受哄啊這個都是他必要的所以這個部分就是用你們可以用的方式去協助他們"},{"start":515.493,"end":539.138,"text":"對 我們會用這種方式處理 但是我們不會明列說防鳥網因為這個一列的話 可能列的非常非常多我知道 項目非常多 可能就是有一個帶瓜的就是我在養殖當中需要用的工具這一次都毀損了 類似這樣的方式都毀損了 所以我可以來申請補助這個部分一定要 因為真的是非常淒慘我們用專案補助會比較相對單純"},{"start":541.539,"end":567.041,"text":"用專案補助啦 這個拜託然後再來就是養雞場還有很多我們相類似的畜牧場這個部長 來我讓你看一下這個它的主幹都歪了然後呢 它的整個地基都扭曲了這個去到我們區公所報說沒有啦 你這裡沒有20%啦"},{"start":569.213,"end":588.044,"text":"他的主幹都歪了然後整個整個都到位置都大挪移了我跟威仁報告就是蓄情場的部分分兩個部分一個是他裡面飼養的那個雞隻這一件事情對那其他的我們蓄舍的部分我們用剩養補助沒錯變成八成"},{"start":589.285,"end":605.031,"text":"所以他只要有像你這樣的認定的照相的事實的話我們都會用專案方式去補助沒有所謂的百分之二十這件事所以這個部分要解釋清楚就是說如果他重建可以補助到八成"},{"start":607.553,"end":621.574,"text":"農民的部分然後呢再來就是我們這一次有很多養豬養雞養鴨他有續養登記但是沒有牧場登記因為這有很多的故事我們專案補助的時候就不會處理這個"},{"start":623.596,"end":651.513,"text":"因為救助才會去看合法性但是專案補助的話我們只是希望讓農民盡快的能夠恢復到正常的部分所以如果說在這個部分的人這一次會用專案補助重觀認定只要是他有修繕的部分拿了相關的收據他有經營的事實我們就會來處理對 拿什麼資料去跟區公所申報這個相對的就是第一個照相照相是最容易的"},{"start":652.674,"end":674.861,"text":"它有一個入積的那個證明嘛這個東西是非常容易去取得的有這些證明你們就可以有相對的補助這個你要跟區公署說補助的部分不像說救助的部分有時間的限制那補助的部分我想我們只要因為大家都在忙於清理嘛那補助的部分我們那個時間會拉長所以部長拜託你"},{"start":679.622,"end":694.862,"text":"就是說因為這一次我們的專案補助真的很多我也常常跟我們的農民漁民說你們今天不管怎麼樣就先照相照相完就是先申報因為我們這一次中央了解地方"},{"start":695.703,"end":718.502,"text":"真的災害影響太多了我們農業漁業還有我們的民眾這一次要復原的時間非常的長所以就先照相先申報我們自然在專案會一件一件出來不要影響到自己的權利所以我也看到了我們這一次真的很多的專案有別於以往所以"},{"start":719.703,"end":733.967,"text":"補助的部分是沒有這些條件的所以也希望我們相關單位要很瞭解區公所基本上就要瞭解這個一定要跟台南市政府說那我有一個部分那個經濟部長謝謝經濟部長國務長"},{"start":745.616,"end":758.785,"text":"其實我2016年就已經向林全院長爭取台南市要納入電纜地下化因為當時候我們經過了很重要的有三個颱風"},{"start":760.655,"end":788.672,"text":"所以那時候也造成大停電40萬戶累積下來40萬戶當時候所以我才會在2016年向林全院長爭取但是現在基本上我們的動作幾乎是一小步一小步一小步而且這個一小步是有一點在往後因為我們的經費不夠所以部長其實從這一次"},{"start":790.673,"end":815.485,"text":"這一次我們的丹納斯颱風說真的這是極端氣候所造成的沒有錯可是就像過去我們好雨當我們要求百年洪水位所有的這也是我們經濟部負責的我們的水利標準都用到達百年洪水位整個做調整也是因為88風災所以一次的大雨造成整個帶淹水"},{"start":817.046,"end":828.576,"text":"那我們這一次其實丹納斯颱風是我們一個警惕有可能因為我們的極端氣候未來颱風都是風速無法可以控管"},{"start":829.79,"end":852.924,"text":"沒有人可以想要說16級風到19級風所以部長 這個電纜地下化我們的主幹線一定要先做我們主幹線沒有做就像這一次全部倒了2000多支的電線桿都是從我們的主幹線從主幹線到內 然後再加護你要多少時間"},{"start":854.17,"end":882.188,"text":"所以我們是不是應該有一套的專案在我們主幹線的部分應該從我們這個地下化的一個編列預算去做處理你認為呢?報告委員我想這些都是科技的問題啦我們會專業評估啦能夠做地下化我們就做地下化因為地勢比較低的啊淹水後大廈更大所以那個地勢高的我們當然可以做地下化"},{"start":882.788,"end":902.133,"text":"那最低是比較低的黑的有淹水可能性的部分我們要考慮有什麼其他的工法來處理當然我當然不是叫你全面啊有些不能做地下化有些要做地下化那我們今天如果把地下化的一個範圍加大"},{"start":903.453,"end":910.157,"text":"那是不是這一次我們就不會有這麼多2000多隻的電線桿第一時間我們到現場去看的時候我是從這個安南區到旗鼓一路看看到這個貨幣牌倒了"},{"start":920.422,"end":944.109,"text":"那太可怕了一直到嘉義 2000多隻所以我一直要講的你們第一時間可能沒有想到會這麼嚴重所以我們要期待的是這一次是我們的一個警惕真的是警惕因為只要有一次一次極端氣候阻造成了一個氣候的怪胎有可能以後都會有這樣的狀況"},{"start":945.74,"end":956.465,"text":"所以部長我拜託這是我2016年就已經向林全院長爭取台南市要納入電纜地下化當時候就是三個颱風有40萬戶但是這一次呢這一次有幾萬戶一百萬對"},{"start":963.7,"end":975.446,"text":"而且是一次那是三個颱風累積這個是一次所以部長我們一定要盡快提出我們這一次的一個檢討方案多久我們的檢討方案我們這個檢討方案當然會"},{"start":982.54,"end":1004.715,"text":"那個台電要兩個月的做具體的評估兩個月沒關係我們可以等你兩個月做出一個真正能夠除了任性也可以真正讓人民安心的一個方法跟方式跟專案跟預算的編列我相信沒有人敢擋這一次這樣子如果敢擋我跟他拚命謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1335,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（13時21分）謝謝主席，我們先請內政部。"],["主席：董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，我先問你，這是你們所公布的，20平方公尺以上未達100平方公尺是補助5萬元；100平方公尺以上是補助10萬元，請問20平方公尺跟100平方公尺的屋損狀況到底要補助5萬或是10萬，這是誰認定？"],["董次長建宏：這是公所來認定……"],["陳委員亭妃：他要怎麼認定？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，這就是6坪跟30坪的差別，假設他的屋頂是6坪大小的破洞，還是……"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，你們會這樣說就是你們沒有到基層去看，區公所怎麼敢認定？今天你規定了這些20平方公尺跟100平方公尺，而他的屋頂破了到底是20平方公尺還是100平方公尺？那他是不是要自己再繼續打掉、打到100平方公尺？因為也都不能用了啊！他不論是掉了一個……"],["董次長建宏：我們就是憑照片，有照片之後，有照相、有做成紀錄……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們不要這樣說，你們都說憑照片，可是你知道嗎？地方區公所的承辦人員也跟你們一樣都是公務人員，你叫他去認定這個，他怎麼去認定？即便他拿了照片，但現在的要求不是這樣，都要叫工人去處理、看怎麼處理。不然今天只有一個照片，你這樣都造成大家很大的麻煩，所以你們說從簡、從寬、從速根本就是口號嘛！"],["董次長建宏：沒有，跟委員報告，我們一定是努力去處理、去做，只要有照片、有東西，公所……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是你們努力，是區公所的承辦人員，你們叫基層的承辦人員去承擔這個壓力！"],["董次長建宏：不是，所有的照片資料回傳之後我們就會來認定，再來就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：由你們認定？你剛剛又跟我說由區公所認定。"],["董次長建宏：區公所那邊認定就可以了，他只要造冊就可以了。"],["陳委員亭妃：造冊、相片造冊，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：好啊，那我現在就問你，我的屋頂已經在漏雨了，三合院的屋瓦都翻開了，無論翻5片、翻6片，基本上那整片都不能用了。你們可能不知道什麼叫三合院，你們也不知道什麼叫瓦厝，瓦厝只要鬆動之後，整片都不能用了。那今天照完之後，請問要怎麼認定？他也是要整片更換，他沒有整片更換沒有辦法，請問這是20平方公尺還是100平方公尺？"],["董次長建宏：我們這是慰助金的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：什麼叫助金？"],["董次長建宏：慰助金！如果受傷、如果受害就可以拿。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯，你們是以房子嘛。"],["董次長建宏：工程方面是另外一個部分處理的。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啦。"],["董次長建宏：我們有修繕補助的機制。"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，我現在已經跟你講了，這是慰助金，所以我們要從快、從速、從簡、從寬，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：你講的嘛，這是慰助金，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你要讓基層很清楚這是慰助金，可是因為你們有規定20平方公尺跟100平方公尺，這個部分就會給基層很大的壓力！他們的壓力是什麼？假設我給了他，那別人去檢舉，我會不會像八八風災一樣又要去調查局或是地檢署被問話？次長，你們同樣……"],["董次長建宏：院長已經指示從寬、從優，我們就是會從寬、從優。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們不要再從寬、從優、從簡，你們要讓基層人員能夠安心！如果他沒有安心，他會設計出很多你要求的文件，這些文件就會綁住所有的民眾。我今天跟你講的是，請你們去了解一下，我們每一天都在地方、區公所繞來繞去……"],["董次長建宏：相關的文件都由地方政府處理當中，我們尊重地方政府的協助。"],["陳委員亭妃：你今天要承辦人員去認定這個，你們也要給他很確認的一個方向……"],["董次長建宏：有，我們會給他們明確的方式，地方政府可以依據他們的需求去……"],["陳委員亭妃：他會擔心就會要求很多的資料，你知道要寫7張嗎？"],["董次長建宏：這不是我們的規定，這是臺南市政府的規定。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，所以你們要溝通嘛！"],["董次長建宏：我們會去跟臺南市政府……"],["陳委員亭妃：那為什麼他們要寫到7張？會煩惱啊，因為你所謂的20平方公尺跟100平方公尺要請他們界定。所以我一直在談的就是你們要有同理心，你們在中央有沒有想到，你們要這些地方區公所的承辦人員去認定，他們會有壓力，自然會想出很多的方式，當他想出很多方式，我們的從簡、從寬、從速就變成一個夢，不可能實現了！到目前為止，我們的電話都被打爆了，每次下去到基層都是說：委員，他一次叫我們寫那麼多單，要我們這個東西、要我們那個東西，我們怎麼有可能？我再拜託次長，這個部分拜託你馬上！"],["董次長建宏：我們今天下午會跟臺南市政府釐清、確認所有的相關程序。"],["陳委員亭妃：確認所有的資料，慰助金！"],["董次長建宏：對，這是慰助金。"],["陳委員亭妃：記得這一句：慰助金！"],["董次長建宏：對，這是慰助金。"],["陳委員亭妃：慰助金就是我們要幫他的及時雨，你知道我們到第一線，我們叫那些阿公阿嬤是不是不要住，他說沒有，這是他的家，我說如果下雨要怎麼辦？他說撐雨傘睡！你們可以想像這樣的感覺嗎？我們這幾天在那邊看，我們看到的心情……"],["董次長建宏：我們會努力，我們下午就馬上去協助所有的事情。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後他再跟我們講說，要叫他們補那麼多資料，他們是要怎麼補？真的，現在已經第15天了，不要再為了這個事件一直雞同鴨講、鬼打牆！","我請農業部。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我告訴你，你們漁業署署長真的很專業，他下去基層說明的時候，我真的要誇獎你，可能我誇獎他會害到他，但是真的要誇獎他啦！他從救助、補助到低利貸款，每一個細項都講得很清楚，可是講清楚以外還是有些我們必須協助的。當時候我們去說明的時候，有防鳥網、養殖用的竹筏要列入補助，當下我們也請相關單位調了資料，這個進度如何？防鳥網、養殖用竹筏都是工具，這些都是養殖的工具，所以這個部分到底現在怎麼樣，有關第一時間我們在現場跟臺南市漁會還有區域會一起談論的事情？請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，因為整個漁業生產或農業生產的細目非常多，關於你這邊提到的防鳥網，這個防鳥網我們本來從96年就沒有在補助，不過我們在這次的設計裡面，可以在一些相關的項目裡面去容納，而不是另外開一個防鳥網。"],["陳委員亭妃：還有養殖用竹筏。"],["陳部長駿季：對，用類似的方式來處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有關係，其實你只要能夠讓他們有機會去得到應有的補助，這都屬於工具，就是他養殖過程必須用的在這次全部都銷毀了，那養殖用的竹筏呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個一樣，我們也是用其他的方式去把它放在裡面……"],["陳委員亭妃：我跟你說，沒有這些竹筏，我沒辦法去收蛤蜊，這個都是他必要的，所以這個部分就是用你們可以用的方式去協助他們。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會用這樣方式去處理，但是我們不會去明列防鳥網，因為這個一列的話，可能會列得非常非常多。"],["陳委員亭妃：我知道，我知道項目非常多，可能就是有一個概括的，就是他在養殖當中需要用的工具，在這一次都毀損了。"],["陳部長駿季：類似這樣的方式。"],["陳委員亭妃：對不對？都毀損了，所以我可以來申請補助，這個部分一定要，因為真的是非常淒慘。"],["陳部長駿季：我們用專案補助會相對比較單純。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，用專案補助，這個拜託了。","再來就是養雞場，我們還有很多相類似的畜牧場，部長，我讓你看一下，它的主幹都歪了，整個地基也都扭曲了，這個報到我們區公所，它卻說沒有啦，你這沒有20%。但它的主幹都歪了，整個位置都大挪移。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，畜禽場分兩個部分，一個是裡面飼養的雞隻有沒有死亡，這是一件事情，其他畜舍的部分有沒有用專案補助，讓五成變成八成。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：所以他只要有像你這樣照相認定的事實的話，我們都會用專案方式去補助，沒有所謂的20%這件事情。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啦！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，專案補助沒有20%。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這個部分要解釋清楚，如果他重建可以補助到八成，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，農民的部分是補助到八成。"],["陳委員亭妃：再來，我們這一次有很多養豬、養雞、養鴨的，他有畜養登記，但是沒有牧場登記，因為這有很多的故事……"],["陳部長駿季：同樣的，我們專案補助的時候就不會處理這個，因為救助才會去看合法性，但是專案補助的話，我們只是希望讓農民能夠儘快恢復生產。"],["陳委員亭妃：恢復正常。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以在這個部分，你們這次會用專案補助……"],["陳部長駿季：我們也會從寬認定。"],["陳委員亭妃：只要是他有修繕的部分，拿了相關的收據……"],["陳部長駿季：他有經營的事實，我們就會來處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，要拿什麼資料去跟區公所申報？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個是照相，照相是最容易的，他有入雛的證明，這個東西是非常容易去取得的。"],["陳委員亭妃：有這些證明，你們就可以有相對的補助，這個你要跟區公所說。"],["陳部長駿季：對，而且補助的部分不像救助的部分有時間的限制，關於補助的部分，因為大家都忙於清理，所以補助的時間會拉比較長。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，會拉長嘛。所以拜託部長，因為這一次我們的專案補助真的很多，我也常常跟我們的農民、漁民說，你們今天不管怎麼樣就先照相，照相完就是先申報，因為中央了解地方這一次真的被災害影響太多了，我們的農業、漁業還有民眾這一次要復原的時間非常的長，所以就先照相、先申報，我們在專案自然會一件一件出來，不要影響到自己的權利，我也看到了我們這一次真的有很多的專案，有別於以往，因為補助的部分是沒有這些條件的，所以也希望我們相關單位要很了解，區公所基本上就要了解，這個一定要跟臺南市政府說。","我有一個部分要請問經濟部長，謝謝。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，其實我2016年就已經向林全院長爭取臺南市要納入電纜地下化，因為當時我們經過了很重要的3個颱風，那時候造成大停電，累積下來有40萬戶，所以我才會在2016年向林全院長爭取，但是現在基本上我們的動作幾乎是一小步、一小步、一小步，而且這個一小步是有一點在往後，因為我們的經費不夠。","所以部長，其實從這一次的丹娜絲颱風來看，說真的，這是極端氣候所造成的，沒有錯，可是就像過去的豪雨，這也是我們經濟部負責的，我們的水利標準都用到達百年洪水位來整個做調整也是因為八八風災，所以一次的大雨造成整個大淹水。","其實這一次的丹娜絲颱風是一個警惕，有可能因為極端氣候，未來颱風的風速都是無法控管，沒有人想到會到16級風到19級風，所以部長，這個電纜地下化的主幹線一定要先做，我們主幹線沒有做的話就會像這一次，全部倒了，兩千多支的電線桿都是從主幹線，從主幹線到內，然後再加護，你要多少時間？所以我們是不是應該有一套專案？在主幹線的部分，應該從地下化的編列預算去做處理，你認為呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這些都是科技的問題，我們會專業評估，能夠做地下化的我們就做地下化，原來地勢比較低的，淹水之後，事情更大條，所以地勢高的我們當然可以做地下化，至於地勢比較低、有淹水可能性的部分，我們要考慮，看有什麼其他的工法來處理，委員的這個……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我當然不是叫你全面都做，有些不能做地下化，有些要做地下化。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們今天如果把地下化的範圍加大，那這一次是不是我們就不會有這麼多，兩千多支的電線桿，我們第一時間到現場去看的時候，我是從安南區到七股一路看，看到後壁這邊，一排倒了，那太可怕了！一直到嘉義，有兩千多支……"],["郭部長智輝：我知道，我也有去看，委員你也……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，我一直要講的是，你們第一時間可能沒有想到會這麼嚴重，所以我們要期待的是，這一次是我們的一個警惕，真的是警惕，因為只要有一次極端氣候所造成的怪颱，有可能以後都會有這樣的狀況。所以我拜託部長，我2016年就已經向林全院長爭取臺南市要納入電纜地下化，當時就是3個颱風，有40萬戶受到影響，但是這一次有幾萬戶？"],["郭部長智輝：100萬。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，而且是1次，之前那是3個颱風累積的，這個是1次，所以部長，一定要儘快提出這一次的檢討方案，我們的檢討方案要多久？"],["郭部長智輝：我們這個檢討方案當然會……台電要2個月的時間來做具體的評估。"],["陳委員亭妃：2個月？沒關係，我們可以等你，2個月做出一個除了韌性，也可以真正讓人民安心的方法、方式、專案以及預算的編列，我相信沒有人敢擋，這一次如果敢擋，我跟他拚命！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員呂玉玲、陳冠廷、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答 呂玉玲委員 呂玉玲委員不在現在請林黛樺委員做詢答有請郭部長 郭部長"},{"start":27.688,"end":43.494,"text":"好 本星鄉針對這個極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施中央是放手地方無力造成災害好 我們來看這一次的丹奈斯颱風這個是從嘉義縣登陸造成的嘉義縣這120年來的一個災情慘重那也多達了70億萬戶的停電但這凸顯了我極端氣候下我的氣候風險"},{"start":56.599,"end":72.698,"text":"所带来的一个电力的一个韧性的因应其实是相对要更高的一个标准好我们看这个丹纳斯台风的光电跟电场本席针对这样的极端气候所造成的光"},{"start":73.519,"end":79.682,"text":"電廠當中來做一個討論那在這次颱風當中光電廠是14個案其中這4個案大的電廠的4個案都在滯洪池上小型案場10個而這個災損呢只要在這個災損的部分在光電廠是沒有人好在沒有人傷亡但是設施是有損害的那風電廠是完全沒有災損就是在設備上也沒有"},{"start":102.571,"end":126.508,"text":"好那我們看發電量這次的光電廠的一個發電量的損失的總裝置容量到32.62MW也就是每天損失將近高峰用電的11.2萬噸我光是這個清台所造成的一個高峰用電量就11.2萬噸的損失這是你經濟部能源署所提供的數據喔"},{"start":127.509,"end":146.188,"text":"好那本席啊這個在前兩次我已經質詢過了就是台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營確保民生穩定而這當中這一次的質詢第二次的這個質詢當中有去講到再次第二次的去提到人員署應該建立"},{"start":147.289,"end":165.435,"text":"評估建立再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制並且規劃台電場域先行試辦以利後續的推動要求到民營電廠那到底有沒有呢剛才聽到我們謝映峰找回他質詢的他講得非常的好你們根本沒有工具"},{"start":166.275,"end":179.108,"text":"你的工具在哪裡 你說要科學的監理 哪裡有好 等一下我再講說你們的科學監理好 所以這次是再生人員沒有環境數據的監理機制也就沒有預宣防災的判斷作為好 我剛才就講到說這次發生的都在制洪池上"},{"start":188.797,"end":190.678,"text":"為什麼我光電廠會沒有摘損因為他的他已經有個機制了只要封到什麼極速的時候他就鎖住了他不會再做風力的運轉但是這一次在水域當中的這個光電廠怎麼樣"},{"start":206.524,"end":230.358,"text":"風力到什麼極致的時候我智鴻池上的光電廠我應該做怎麼樣的保護譬如說我應該做電纜相關的那個矽電纜是不是應該加強或矽纜要做加強類似這樣的機制我們是沒有所以你在這個環境再生人員場域各級數據的監理機制當中其實是有缺失的"},{"start":231.278,"end":245.829,"text":"好那再生人員場域的數據監理機制台電公司回覆給本席的我這邊都是你們的文字台電公司已經建立相關的管理架構跟運作規模其實這是人員署管你們人員署就說好那台電來管"},{"start":249.852,"end":271.647,"text":"那我也講到這個能源署是有公權力的他不管你叫台電先是先行要台電去管全國的那不可能他沒有公權力所以他維護給本席的台電公司已經進入相關的管理架構跟這個運作模式了涵蓋配電級跟輸電級的各再生能源數據的監控跟管理所以才確保各再生能源的穩定並往跟電往所以台電只重視什麼"},{"start":280.172,"end":297.377,"text":"發電跟設備這本來就是他的專業啊他的專業在哪裡他的專業不在於我是不是自然環境的變化因素會影響我的發電跟設備的關聯性重點是這個所以你的監理機制跟管理機制是只管發電跟設備"},{"start":299.477,"end":320.608,"text":"我們期待的 剛才歷任的 包括剛才昭緯所講的我們的風水陣會不會怎麼影響我的發電跟市面 你是沒有辦法做監理跟管理的好那你們的回文是這樣啦 台電的監控之管理其實都是以電力出發 這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失"},{"start":321.969,"end":338.755,"text":"不能說缺失啦 就應該在經濟的部分 而非環境影響為優先你們的監控機制回文叫什麼 依台電公司啊等等等等 這麼長的一個原則要求再生林園廠將資料回傳至調度中心喔這個資料中心只包括什麼 資料只有氣象資料我這個是光電廠 我只有收集這個太陽光"},{"start":345.658,"end":354.324,"text":"那太陽光當中的光電廠你只收集太陽光那你有沒有想到我的有效日照有效日照我降雨會不會影響有效日照我風力會不會影響這個光電廠的設備我的強震跟強風會不會影響這個光電廠的各項的結構安全"},{"start":365.572,"end":380.691,"text":"其實是沒有的 部長其實這個我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性我就是因為光天我只收集光那之前的其他的這個降雨啦 風力啦 強震啦等環境因素就沒有了所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷"},{"start":382.333,"end":401.389,"text":"那你的監理機制當中除了氣象資料的單項之外其他的都是電力了什麼有效電力瞬間值 無效電力瞬間值這本來就是台電他的強項那這個東西跟我的環境影響跟我的電力有沒有關聯 沒有那你的管理機制台電只做到什麼"},{"start":401.869,"end":426.007,"text":"他說我要求了各再生能源廠裝置相關的電力保護措施我怎麼保護電力嘛如果遇到強大我怎麼保護電力所以呢他這邊講的就比如說電壓控制頻率響應及故障穿越能力其實還是一樣他還是講電所以相關的監理跟管理都是以電為出發缺乏電廠安全跟環境影響進行科學管理好"},{"start":429.81,"end":435.233,"text":"我們再來看青苔這邊已經形成青苔的丹納斯風災它形成了範圍性的天然災害也凸顯再生人員不是僅有電力供應應該被管理好 我們來看這幾個盲點台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身過去的台電都是單一電廠獨立作業"},{"start":457.005,"end":477.938,"text":"他具備完整的應變能力這其實是真的要感謝台電他怎麼樣的完整的應變能力他這次當中更凸顯了還有充足的備品隨時待命的輪值人員緊急應變的機制這更是對於我們的民營再生人員廠有沒有這些東西沒有"},{"start":478.968,"end":482.37,"text":"我們是沒有的喔所以綠能電廠是分散場域而且是基礎設施收拾未完善的地點譬如說我們都是要農業貧瘠之地啦或者是相關的地處偏遠啦所以在這些民營當中的地點這樣的一個特性之外我缺乏人員駐點應變我沒有這些民營是沒有人員駐點的喔"},{"start":506.207,"end":530.922,"text":"那更不要說他對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響的多項變數在綠能電廠是完全沒有好那我能源署你不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制我已經質詢兩次了其實你應該要這個能源電廠你說環境部各自的電廠做要核准你要做環境影響評估做完之後就沒事了"},{"start":531.943,"end":534.865,"text":"本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠的環境影響評估之後的數據人員數做全國的統籌之後隨時的調整之後你20年期到了你要做換證要做延展了你是不是要做一下評估一下我要延展我的我的氣候條件極端氣候條件什麼的變化我應該怎麼樣的各個"},{"start":558.002,"end":586.095,"text":"設施當中我應該要怎麼的再加嚴的要求呢所以我期待的就是你的環境影響評估每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做但是呢做完之後就沒事了繳報告給環境部就可以了之後沒有誰要來做監理你要去環境部去監理你的電廠嗎不可能啊那你只有人員署啊你不能拋給台電台電哪有能力去管所有民營電廠跟地方政府"},{"start":586.755,"end":611.493,"text":"不可能所以能源這個能源署就應該是要統籌所有民營電廠的一個整個的這個數據的監控跟管理那地方政府本身沒有電力專業啊那台電又不具公權力啊所以能源署你現在不收集掌握資料就無法做決策的參考現在也無法面對問題之外你未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制"},{"start":615.176,"end":619.498,"text":"我們在兼顧再生人員與居民用電這邊本席有一個要求全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入了5600億但這次風災凸顯了電網末端輸送電網末端輸送遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱所以請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性"},{"start":642.225,"end":658.986,"text":"因地制宜規劃電網方案並納入行政院的二次人員轉型這是按照媒體講因為我不曉得你的二次人員轉型的細部計畫是什麼我只看你爆派的你的二次人員轉型包含的是多元綠能深度節能"},{"start":661.308,"end":686.277,"text":"儲能技術應用核能安全本席要求你要把這樣的一個末端電網電網末端輸送的這個方案納入二次電網要全國區域性喔靠山靠海靠城市靠偏鄉這個全國你比如說雲嘉南這次最重他全部都平延他的這個區域特性的結果你的電網規劃是什麼"},{"start":688.138,"end":717.242,"text":"那如果針對我們三區包括我高雄市三區這個是面積幾乎佔了我的高雄的一半以上那你這個部分它的電網又要怎麼的規劃所以你在這個電網末端尤其它是對我民生是最急切的你們之前5600億是在全國的區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡但是在這個末端跟我民生最主要最有感的電力的輸送"},{"start":717.802,"end":734.859,"text":"你們有沒有規劃 沒有所以本席要求這個部分你要重新的來重視而且納入二次能源的轉型因為要經費啊這個要經費啊你不能全部都給地方全部給台電那台電又更是更要倒了那最後本席具體要求"},{"start":736.86,"end":763.789,"text":"對於這個再生能源安全性的穩定性的強烈主張所以要求兩件事情要求經濟部能源署檢討更新你的再生能源場域各級數據的監理機制第二個規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案這是新的方案那以維持再生能源跟我居民安全居民的用電安全這是雙重保障所以部長你怎麼看"},{"start":764.893,"end":783.904,"text":"報告委員我想你所垂詢的這一個部分我們都有在檢討那這一次的這個我想因為氣候變遷造成的這一次比較嚴重的傷害也是我們一個學習的樣本那我們會以這一些比較脆弱的部分我們會來強化我想這一次的這個經驗"},{"start":785.385,"end":811.502,"text":"我們會把所有的結構剛才你在垂詢的包括floating的這個系統確實在結構上面我們過去雖然有技師簽證過但是還是沒有辦法耐到時機急風所以我們會從這個上面來學習將來會把這些東西全部都來強化我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶能夠跟使用電的這個部分沒有斷電的這樣的一個"},{"start":814.403,"end":826.428,"text":"疑慮這樣的一個困擾往前往前部長我想的我不是只有針對floating的部分來來往前往前這個不能動好再往前好這個"},{"start":828.005,"end":855.446,"text":"我講的不是只有針對那個滯洪池喔我說以光電廠為例主要收集的是有效日照你光是你的數據跟管理你本身就要做調整跟增加了嘛我們會來這個考慮因為現在極端氣候嘛造成的這個變異非常的大那我們會來做這一方面的強化所以這樣的這個你們的這個管理跟監控機制的數據你們這是有發文的喔有真的是這個你們為什麼不動啊"},{"start":856.96,"end":867.056,"text":"目前的監控機制是有這個環境部他們在做啦那我們會來討論到底哪個部分要再加強這個機制不是環境部喔 是人員署喔人員署講個話吧"},{"start":869.384,"end":894.79,"text":"還是台電自己發布的我跟委員報告那個剛剛講的那幾塊因為涉及到電力調度的部分因為台電必須要知道說那個附近區域他到底光源可以發的怎麼樣所以台電他在每一天前一天他都會做一些預測所以他必須要要求說那些數據要可以提供給台電做調度"},{"start":895.95,"end":920.48,"text":"簡單啦 你要不要更新你這樣的再生人員場域各級數據管理機制這個是你們的一個對 這個部分我們會再跟台電檢討說這個後續要怎麼樣但是也跟委員澄清一下那個環評的部分環評的部分只要做完環評環境部就會去做監督那我們的演員署就會負責追蹤這個是法令上規定我們這個已經大概做了二十幾年了跟委員補充報告一下"},{"start":920.54,"end":936.745,"text":"追蹤啊所以那你追蹤當中有做數據的分析嗎有 那個數據我們有問那其實是你主責還是環境部主責追蹤的部分我們會把數據整理出來以後會將結果報到環境部所以這是錯的嘛沒有 法規是這樣規定的那你要調整法規啊你這個法規是"},{"start":940.706,"end":946.427,"text":"所以在給環境部的話也就是說今天啊風大雨大會影響電力那是環境部來告訴你嗎還是你自己主張兩個電廠是你主責所以呢我這個數據呈現之後所以你應該要做什麼樣的因應所以這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點啦當然是你人員人員數啊所以你再繼續對那這個法你可以改啊"},{"start":970.1,"end":973.542,"text":"我是點問題 我不講 反正最後罵的是你但是本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨罵的是本執政黨啊你這個電廠的數據你推給環境部 環境部收到這個數據之後他說對電廠會有什麼的衝擊然後他再告訴你 你不是多此一舉嗎"},{"start":993.464,"end":999.867,"text":"所以數據的分析跟你相關設備的這個因應的機制當然是你數據的分析包括日照我說光是一個光電廠光是它的下雨就會影響日照它的風力也會影響你的基礎結構包括你的強震包括都會影響結構這結構有你的土木結構你的建築的你的這個設備的結構都會影響啊"},{"start":1023.2,"end":1023.881,"text":"那就算這個數據不是你分析嗎 它只呈現這個數據而已啊我要說兩件事了 有關"},{"start":1032.79,"end":1060.548,"text":"這個電廠的營運的部分的資料我們自己會分析那個我們也會tag那不足的部分我們會檢討那這是委員說的第一塊第二塊有關環境監測數據是當初環境部它在環境影響評估審查的結論那個部分我們必須要報依環境影響評估法報到環境部去環境部就最後所以這是兩塊事情環境影響評估內的所有的數據你的環評所做的所有數據你都有百分百的監控嗎"},{"start":1063.233,"end":1079.546,"text":"會依照環評法最後的結論它要求我們目的使者決定要做追蹤的部分模擬業者所以並沒有全部嗎沒有它環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼我們就會把追蹤的結果報到環境部去就是依它的最後的結論就是我們就依照結論來辦"},{"start":1081.227,"end":1101.621,"text":"對 你的結論就是說你有掌握在一個是你的結論的數據有沒有去做分析第一個是你的結論有沒有 只是依法嘛 那有沒有需要增加也許他業者做了10項 但是你最後監控的只有6項好 你依照規定的是6項 可是你發現到我其實是要這10項我全部都要繼續監控的喔好 第二個 這個監控的彼此之間的關係 我的這個對"},{"start":1106.364,"end":1131.812,"text":"自然資源 再生能源是來自天然資源啊所以天然資源對於這個你這個整個風場 整體風場的影響這才是你主責 我在意的是你的數據的完備性跟你的這個影響的這個數據的交叉的分析這才是重點 這才叫做科學管理啊科學數據 科學管理啊你要做到這點 那是不是要檢討呢有沒有檢討的必要我應該是說我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是"},{"start":1135.396,"end":1139.561,"text":"是不是要檢討啊這個部分我們好那就是如果你要檢討你要多久"},{"start":1140.68,"end":1155.267,"text":"你就能夠要去更新你的再生人員場域更新數據的監理機制啊跟委員報告一下 這個因為我們現在像太陽光店 鋒利這些我們其實都會隨著這個環境變遷去持續做檢討所以這個需要一點時間 這個我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告好 OK 沒問題 我也不逼你時間再來你的電網末端輸送的電網任性 這個是台電講的話"},{"start":1168.072,"end":1195.002,"text":"向委員報告那因為這次我們也看到風災造成的這個災害這個災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣就是十六、十七級風所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的我們有分短期、中期、長期都會做一些因應那部長有一些指示那我們會盡速來辦理你對於本席講的電網末端輸送我最在意這個因為這跟我民生最有關係是的"},{"start":1195.702,"end":1209.372,"text":"對 我們不管你那個 你花了五千六百億我跟你講 人民是無感的但是對於你我都知這個是很重要的但是現在對人民最有感的就是我的跟我民生最末端的那個電網的一個脆弱性才是讓我民眾對於政府覺得非常的不信任就會導致說 這個是你的人員政策就會跳得太快了"},{"start":1220.68,"end":1234.705,"text":"那這個會不會影響民眾真的喔 就是你們政府的能源政策錯誤喔就會被導入這個狀態然後你跟他講說我已經花了五千六百億他還是聽不懂你花了五千六百億你怎麼還是讓我家的電信桿全部倒了還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的倒入"},{"start":1239.426,"end":1243.548,"text":"那你那5600億花在哪裡我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法但我相信這個是誤導式的質詢方法那民眾聽得下去聽不下去絕對聽得下去因為你花了5600億可是這5600億不是花在跟我民生最有關係的電網末端嘛就是我家前面那個電線港你不能倒啊因為一倒就是影響到我家人民在意的是這個啊"},{"start":1265.876,"end":1269.101,"text":"那這個我希望你對於全國性做個盤點做一個專案也許這個整個你盤點完後出來需要3000億比如說"},{"start":1274.966,"end":1301.728,"text":"我認為這是新的 從雲加南當中 這是新的方案而且是靠山靠海 靠水 不管靠山靠海 或者城鄉之間這才是新的話 本席講的這個是新的方案所以你覺得這個是不是應該 你要去想一下 評估一下這個是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端的輸送方案才對啊是 我們會評估 因為部長有指示 我們會評估整個短中長期都會出來好 謝謝"},{"start":1303.882,"end":1307.191,"text":"好谢谢我们现在请陈婷飞"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（13時）有請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：本席想針對極端氣候衝擊再生能源設施！中央放手、地方無力，造成災害！這一次丹娜絲颱風從嘉義縣登陸，創120年紀錄，造成嘉義縣災情慘重，也多達71萬戶停電，這凸顯了極端氣候下，氣候風險所帶來的電力韌性因應其實是相對要有更高的標準。我們看丹娜絲颱風對於光電和風電案場的災損情形，本席針對極端氣候所造成的光電案場災損來做討論，在這次颱風當中，光電案場有14個案，其中大型案場的4個案都在滯洪池上，小型案場10個，而光電廠的災損部分，好在沒有人傷亡，但是設施是有損害的，風電廠是完全沒有災損，在設備上也沒有。我們來看發電量，這次光電廠發電量損失總裝置容量為32.62MW，也就是每天損失將近高峰用電量11.2萬度，光是這樣一個輕颱所造成的高峰用電量就有11.2萬度的損失，這是經濟部能源署所提供的數據。","本席在前兩次已經質詢過了，台電應該以綜合電業方式繼續經營，確保民生穩定，而在第二次的質詢當中，我有再次提到能源署應該評估建立再生能源場域各級數據監理機制，並且規劃台電場域先行試辦，以利後續推動要求到民營電廠，到底有沒有呢？剛才聽到謝衣鳯召委的質詢，他講得非常的好，你們根本沒有工具，你的工具在哪裡？你說要科學監理，哪裡有？等一下我再講你們的科學監理，所以這次是再生能源沒有環境數據監理機制，也就沒有預先防災的判斷和作為。我剛才就講到這次發生的災損都在滯洪池上，為什麼風電廠會沒有災損？因為它已經有這個機制了，只要風力達到什麼級速的時候，它就鎖住了，不會再進行風力運轉。但是這次在水域當中的光電廠，風力到達什麼級速的時候，滯洪池上的光電廠應該做怎麼樣的保護，譬如相關的繫電纜是不是應該加強，或繫纜要做加強，類似這樣的機制，我們是沒有的，所以在再生能源場域各級數據監理機制當中其實是有缺失的。","關於再生能源場域的數據監理機制，這邊都是台電公司回復給本席的文字，台電公司已經建立相關管理架構與運作規模，其實這是能源署管的，能源署說台電來管，我也講到能源署是有公權力的，但是它不管，你叫台電先試先行，要台電去管全國的，那不可能，它沒有公權力，所以它回復給本席的文字是，台電公司已經建立相關管理架構與運作模式，涵蓋配電級與輸電級的各再生能源數據監控與管理，以確保各再生能源的穩定併網及電網運行的可靠性。所以台電只重視發電與設備，這本來就是它的專業，它的專業在哪裡？它的專業不在於是不是自然環境的變化因素影響發電及設備的關聯性，重點是這個，所以你的監理機制和管理機制是只管發電及設備，我們期待的，包括剛才召委所講的，風、水、震會不會影響發電及設備，你是沒有辦法監理及管理的。你們的回文是這樣，台電的監控及管理機制都是以電力為出發點，這是本席爬梳出來你們的缺失，不能說缺失，應該是要再精進的部分，而非環境影響為優先考量，你們的監控機制叫什麼？依台電公司再生能源發電系統即時運轉資料提供及傳送方式原則，要求再生能源案場將資料回傳至調度中心，這個資料中心包括氣象資料，光電廠只有收集太陽光，你有沒有想到有效日照，降雨會不會影響有效日照，風力會不會影響光電廠的設備，強震和強風會不會影響光電廠的各項結構安全？其實是沒有的！","部長，我要凸顯出來讓你了解這個的嚴重性，就是因為光電廠只收集光，其他的降雨、風力、強震等環境因素就沒有了，所以你就沒有這個工具去做判斷，你的監理機制當中，除了單項的氣象資料之外，其他的都是電力，如有效電力瞬間值、無效電力瞬間值，這本來就是台電的強項，這個東西跟環境影響、電力有沒有關聯？沒有！台電的管理機制只做到什麼？要求各再生能源廠裝置相關的電驛保護措施，要怎麼保護電力，如果遇到強颱要怎麼保護電力，所以它這邊講的，比如電壓控制、頻率響應及故障穿越能力，其實還是一樣，它還是講電，所以相關的監理和管理都是以電為出發點，缺乏對於電廠安全與環境影響進行科學管理。","我們再來看，輕颱丹娜絲風災已經形成範圍性的天然災害，也凸顯再生能源不是僅有電力供應應該被管理，我們來看這幾個盲點，台電公司的管理機制都是僅針對電力供應本身，過去台電都是以單一電廠獨立作業，具備完整的應變能力，這其實是真的要感謝台電，怎麼樣完整的應變能力？在這次當中更凸顯了有充足的備品、隨時待命的輪值人員、緊急應變的機制，但是我們的民營再生能源廠有沒有這些東西？沒有，我們是沒有的。而綠能電廠是分散場域且位處基礎設施未完善地點，譬如都是農業貧瘠之地或者是地處偏遠，這些民營電廠除了地點這樣的特性之外，也缺乏人員駐點應變，這些民營電廠是沒有人員駐點的，更不要說對生態環境及水土保持可能會有影響等多項變數，在綠能電廠是完全沒有的，所以能源署不應該核准後就任由民營電廠自行管制。我已經質詢過兩次了，你說環境部在核准電廠時要做環境影響評估，做完之後就沒事了，但本席希望的是你要統籌這些電廠環境影響評估之後的數據，能源署要做全國統籌，之後隨時調整，20年期到了要換證、延展，你是不是要做一下評估，延展時應考量極端氣候條件的變化，各個設施當中應該要怎麼再加嚴要求。所以我期待的是你的環境影響評估，每個民營電廠都花了那麼多錢做，但是做完之後就沒事了，繳報告給環境部就可以了，之後就沒有了，誰要來做監理，你要環境部去監理你的電廠嗎？不可能啊！只有能源署，你不能拋給台電，台電哪有能力去管所有的民營電廠和地方政府，不可能！所以能源署就應該要統籌所有民營電廠整個數據的監控跟管理，地方政府本身沒有電力專業，台電又不具公權力，所以能源署現在不蒐集、掌握資料，就無法做決策的參考，現在也無法面對問題之外，未來也不能調整20年期滿的電廠展延機制。","為了兼顧再生能源與居民用電，本席有一個要求，全國區域電網骨幹的電力韌性我們投入5,600億，但這次風災凸顯電網末端輸送（last mile）遭遇極端氣候時的脆弱，請經濟部盤點全國區域地理特性，因地制宜規劃電網方案，並納入行政院的二次能源轉型。這是按照媒體講的，因為我不曉得二次能源轉型的細部計畫是什麼，我只看你報出來的，二次能源轉型包含多元綠能、深度節能、儲能技術應用、核能安全，本席要求你把電網末端輸送的方案納入二次能源轉型，要是全國區域性的，靠山、靠海、靠城市、靠偏鄉，像雲嘉南這次最嚴重，但它全部都是平原，依其區域特性的結果，你的電網規劃是什麼？如果針對我們山區，包括高雄市山區，面積幾乎占了高雄的一半以上，對這個部分的電網又要怎麼規劃？所以你在電網末端，尤其它對民生是最急切的，你們之前5,600億是在全國區域電網主幹線當中的電力網絡，但是在末端，對於民生最主要、最有感的電力輸送，你們有沒有規劃？沒有。所以本席要求你要重新重視這個部分，而且納入二次能源轉型，因為這個要經費啊！你不能全部都給地方、全部都給台電，那台電更要倒了。","最後本席具體要求，對於再生能源安全性、穩定性的強烈主張，所以要求兩件事情，要求經濟部能源署檢討、更新再生能源場域各級數據監理機制；第二個，規劃電網末端輸送的電網韌性方案，這是新的方案，以維持再生能源跟居民用電安全，這是雙重保障，所以部長怎麼看？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想你所垂詢的這個部分，我們都有在檢討，因為氣候變遷造成這次比較嚴重的傷害，也是我們學習的樣本，我們會來強化這些比較脆弱的部分。我想從這一次的經驗，我們會對所有的結構，剛才你在垂詢的包括floating系統，確實在結構上面，我們過去雖然有技師簽證過，但還是沒有辦法承受17級風，所以我們會從這上面來學習，將來會把這些東西全部都來做強化，我希望能夠達到讓所有的用電戶跟使用電的部分沒有斷電的疑慮及困擾。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我不是只有針對floating的部分，我講的不是只有針對滯洪池，以光電場為例，主要收集的是有效日照，光是你的數據跟管理本身就要做調整，就要增加了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們都會考慮，因為現在極端氣候造成的變異非常大，我們會來做這方面的強化。"],["林委員岱樺：所以你們管理跟監控機制的數據，這是有發文的……"],["郭部長智輝：目前的監控機制是由環境部在做，我們會來討論到底哪一個部分還要再加強……"],["林委員岱樺：這個機制不是環境部，是能源署。能源署講個話吧？還是台電自己發布的？"],["吳副署長志偉：我跟委員報告，剛剛講的那幾塊，因為涉及到電力調度的部分，因為台電必須要知道那個附近區域到底光電可以發得怎麼樣，台電在前一天都會做一些預測，所以它必須要求那些數據可以提供給台電做調度……"],["林委員岱樺：好，簡單啦！你要不要更新再生能源場域各級數據監理機制？這是你們發布出來的機制。"],["吳副署長志偉：對，我們會再跟台電檢討這個部分後續要怎麼做，但是也跟委員澄清一下環評的部分，只要做完環評，環境部就會做監督，能源署就會負責追蹤，這是法令上的規定，我們已經大概做了二十幾年，跟委員補充報告一下。"],["林委員岱樺：追蹤啊？"],["吳副署長志偉：對、對。"],["林委員岱樺：那你追蹤當中，有做數據的分析嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：有，那個數據我們有問……"],["林委員岱樺：分析是你主責還是環境部主責？"],["吳副署長志偉：追蹤的部分，我們會把數據整理出來以後，將結果報到環境部。"],["林委員岱樺：所以這是錯的嘛！那你環境……"],["吳副署長志偉：沒有，法規是這樣規定。"],["林委員岱樺：那你要調整法規啊！這樣法規是……"],["吳副署長志偉：對，不好意思，跟委員報告，那個是環評法的規定。"],["林委員岱樺：好，你再給環境部的話，也就是今天風大、雨大會影響電力，那是環境部來告訴你嗎？還是你自己主張哪個電廠是你主責，這個數據呈現之後，你應該要做什麼樣的因應？這就是你們兩個部門的矛盾點，當然是你能源署啊！這個法你可以改啊！"],["吳副署長志偉：我是跟委員……"],["林委員岱樺：我告訴你，我是點出問題，我不講，反正最後罵的是你，但本席最在意的是罵的是本執政黨，罵的是本執政黨啊！電廠的數據你推給環境部，環境部收到這個數據之後，他說對電廠會有什麼衝擊，然後他再告訴你，不是多此一舉嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：委員，這有兩個……"],["林委員岱樺：所以數據的分析跟相關設備的因應機制當然是你，數據的分析包括日照，一個光電場光是下雨就會影響日照，風力也會影響基礎結構，包括強震都會影響結構，這結構有土木結構、建築設備的結構，都會有影響啊！就算這個數據不是由你分析，他們只呈現這個數據而已啊？"],["吳副署長志偉：委員，我要說兩件事，有關電廠營運部分的資料，我們自己會分析，我們也會take，不足的部分我們會檢討，這是委員說的第一塊；第二塊，有關環境監測數據是當初環境部在環境影響評估審查的結論，那個部分我們必須要依環境影響評估法報到環境部，所以這是兩塊事情，跟委員報告。"],["林委員岱樺：好，在環境影響評估內的所有數據，你都有百分百的監控嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：會依照環評法最後的結論，它要求目的事業主管機關要做追蹤的部分，我們會請業者將資料……"],["林委員岱樺：所以並沒有全部嘛？"],["吳副署長志偉：沒有，環評法最後的結論要我們追蹤什麼，我們就會把追蹤的結果報給環境部，就是依其最後的結論，我們就依照結論來辦。"],["林委員岱樺：對，你的結論就是你有掌握，我在意的是你結論的數據有沒有去做分析？第一個，你的結論是依法嘛！那有沒有需要增加？也許業者做了10項，但是你最後監控的只有6項，依照規定的是6項，可是你發現到其實這10項全部都要繼續監控。第二個，這個監控彼此之間的關係，再生能源是來自天然資源，所以天然資源對於整體風場的影響，這才是你主責的，我在意的是數據的完備性跟影響數據的交叉分析，這才是重點，這才叫做科學數據、科學管理，你要做到這點，那是不是要檢討呢？有沒有檢討的必要？"],["吳副署長志偉：委員應該是指我們運轉數據的那些項目是不是要檢討，這個部分我們會持續地……"],["林委員岱樺：好，如果你要檢討，需要多久？你就能夠去更新再生能源場域各級數據監理機制。"],["吳副署長志偉：跟委員報告一下，因為現在像太陽光電、風力等，我們其實都會隨著環境變遷持續去做檢討，所以這個需要一點時間，我們到時候檢討完會跟委員報告。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK，沒問題，我也不逼你時間。再來，關於電網末端輸送的電網韌性，這是台電講的話。"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，因為這一次我們也看到風災造成的災害，此災害的情境跟以往完全不一樣，就是16、17級風，所以這個部分對於如何強化我們的……我們有分短期、中期、長期，都會做一些因應，部長也有一些指示，我們會儘速來辦理這方面的檢討。"],["林委員岱樺：你對於本席講的電網末端輸送，我最在意這個，因為這跟民生最有關係。"],["王總經理耀庭：是的。"],["林委員岱樺：對，你花了5,600億，我跟你講，人民是無感的，但是你我都知道這個是很重要的，現在對人民最有感的就是民生電網最末端的脆弱性，這才是讓民眾對於政府覺得非常不信任的原因，就會導入認為這個是你的能源政策、就會跳得太快，那這個會不會影響民眾認為這真的是政府的能源政策錯誤？就會被導入這個狀態。然後你跟他講說已經花了5,600億，他還是聽不懂，並且認為你花了5,600億怎麼還是讓我家的電線桿全部倒了，還讓台電員工將近兩個禮拜不眠不休的導入，那你的5,600億花在哪裡？我現在的質詢方法叫做反對黨的質詢方法，但這個是誤導式的質詢方法，那民眾聽得下去聽不下去？絕對聽得下去，因為你花了5,600億！可是這5,600億不是花在跟民生最有關係的電網末端，就是我家前面那個電線桿不能倒，因為一倒就是影響到我家，人民在意的是這個！","這方面我希望你全國性做個盤點、做一個專案，也許你整個盤點完後，譬如需要3,000億，我認為這是新的，從雲嘉南地區在這次的災損中，這是新的方案，而且是靠山、靠海、靠水，不管靠山、靠海或者城鄉之間，這才是新的方案，本席講的這個是新的方案！所以你要去想一下、評估一下是不是應該啟動這樣的一個電網末端輸送方案才對啊？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，我們會評估，因為部長有指示，我們會評估，整個短、中、長期都會出來。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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我們請召委謝一鳳質詢好 謝謝主席我想要請我們農業部的陳部長陳部長"},{"start":23.667,"end":40.156,"text":"陳部長我想請問這次的清源專案我們彰化縣農民申請的期間是從7月就是到7月25號為止但是現在申請的農民跟農地有多少"},{"start":40.996,"end":59.01,"text":"那我知道在嘉義跟台南他們可以延後那因為現在災民都在救災在申報的期限上面是不是有辦法也給予災民跟台南嘉義一樣延後申報呢"},{"start":59.77,"end":73.891,"text":"我跟委員說明就是救災跟我們的這些補助包括你剛才講到道座的清源那這個部分它不在救災的範圍所以它的沒有一些時間的限制然後第二個就是說救災的部分我們雖然說10天"},{"start":76.514,"end":96.253,"text":"但是如果需要延長的時候可以延長五天啊這個地方政府我們每天幾乎都打電話給地方政府保持聯絡如果說他覺得他的案件太多需要延長的話我們會立即同意的這個我想請農民可以放心所以一級倒座的這個就是申報還有就是清源不在這個對這個沒有"},{"start":97.535,"end":113.349,"text":"這個用專案的輔導的話那個時間我們都沒有所謂的截止日啦你只要有真正的去繳交有他的事實的話我們都會認不會說因為他時間到了就不處理不會因為7月21號到期那還沒有去申報就不處理是不是"},{"start":116.231,"end":133.602,"text":"對你這樣講了要給農民清楚喔對我們會再去講清楚救助是一件事情這個是專門專門協助的部分就沒有時間的限制只要他有受災的時候就可以來申請因為我們水稻的面積是1800公頃是全國最大的一個部分而且將近那時候將近有20%還沒有收啦"},{"start":136.024,"end":150.484,"text":"對我們我們那時候就是在委員的關心之下我們特別是把這個災害國也把它納入那這個部分在在漲化地區的農民都覺得很不錯的一個一個方法還有因為微怕微怕颱風也要來了那因為微怕颱風如果來的話那"},{"start":153.267,"end":179.648,"text":"這樣子其實也會就是說延長因為我們還不知道他現在路徑的方向到底上岸的地點是為何那所以影響的範圍我們也不清楚的狀況之下也期望就是說對於農業的災損那這一次農業部可以給予更長的時間然後讓農民好好的清楚再加上二期稻作未來"},{"start":180.729,"end":202.398,"text":"怎麼樣子進行如果目前清源以及就是沒有辦法清除現在在上面受損的這些稻作的話那有可能二期稻作沒有辦法順利那這樣怎麼怎麼做呢我想我們是希望說他如果是受災的這些穀他可以清源的部分他直接可以拿掉然後他還來得及二期做"},{"start":202.958,"end":223.994,"text":"那如果說現在快要收貨的話我們都希望說他能夠來得及二級座如果來不及二級座的部分的時候那相對的我們有二級座的這些轉座的誘因是可以來支持的好好謝謝那請你請回我想要請交通部陳次長還有內政部的董事長"},{"start":230.353,"end":259.299,"text":"我請問兩位來委員會報告因為這一次的災損很多都涉及到房屋還有車輛的這個部分喔那其實喔上一次在報這個災損的時候大家都感受到非常的不方便那請問這一次怎麼樣子協助災民在申請災損災害的這些救助的時候內政部跟交通部能夠重塑啊是不是先請內政部啊"},{"start":262.09,"end":283.77,"text":"那我想內政部已經在行政院的指示之下我們已經透過在7月18號透過專案的方式補助那麼整個災損的方式我們就是依照院長的指示重寬重塑重寬重塑的方式來處理所以我們就是在那個破損的範圍在6到30坪之內我們就是馬上就是給你補貼"},{"start":284.751,"end":307.937,"text":"那60坪以上我們也就是另外一個金額的補貼而且我們是以居住事實作為現況的認定那每戶來做一個快速的補助那由地方政府來統籌 由帶一窗口來運作這樣子其實在台南市已經就完成了相關的一個房屋的登記而且我們不是只有屋頂 包括外牆的損毀還有一些相關的居住的狀況的損毀我們都有全部的保護"},{"start":311.078,"end":315.331,"text":"那除了嘉義之外除了台南在嘉義縣也是一致那災區也都認定了"},{"start":316.479,"end":335.43,"text":"我相信這次雖然比較嚴重的就是南部那大家都是人機幾機人力幾力希望說內政部跟交通部對於相關的這樣子的災民的補助一定要從寬從簡不要是只是政策性的宣布沒有沒有我們全都已經直接下去跟公所直接對接了對好那你們兩個請回我們請經濟部長謝謝"},{"start":349.997,"end":369.607,"text":"郭部長這一次我們看到屏東的這個旭東光電這個他在測試離岸光電浮板的這個系統海上的耐受性那我們看到了這一次明顯的嚴重"},{"start":370.856,"end":391.449,"text":"是怎麼樣沒有辦法承受這個風災那未來離岸的光電還能做嗎你離岸光電沒有辦法做的話你怎麼做這是整個能源政策的問題啊你趕快回答是報告委員我想我們也在對這一次的這個颱風造成這樣的這個這個屏東的這個佳東這個地方的這個這個怎麼講他承載的這個"},{"start":400.915,"end":419.112,"text":"結構承載的部分然後會變成漂流我非常訝異因為在去年三個比這個颱風更嚴重它也是存在的它沒問題為什麼這一次颱風會有問題所以我們大概在做研究也就是必須要長期的觀察"},{"start":419.853,"end":433.45,"text":"所以我當然這個是給我們一個非常好的一個學習那為什麼去年可以為什麼今年會有這個問題所以在做研究不會說只做這個幾個月啊或者是所以他會有一個長期的研究這一點跟委員報告那所以"},{"start":436.772,"end":449.008,"text":"你們在太陽能光電這一塊上面如果離岸風電現在沒有辦法繼續做的話我是說如果他的抗壓就是抗風的能力不足的情況下"},{"start":450.205,"end":469.291,"text":"妳要多久的時間確定它有沒有辦法繼續做而目前我們知道現在即便是農地都拿來做光電其實我們也發現了根本不合我們所需的綠電的需求是不是那"},{"start":470.131,"end":491.658,"text":"你要怎麼做報告委員我們現在這個農地來做這個綠電的部分大部分就是農 農漁來做了就底下做這個養殖然後上面做這個太陽能那大概這是一種另外一種我們會找的就底下沒有養殖大概就是不堪這個農作的地"},{"start":493.859,"end":516.816,"text":"這個我們要盤點但全台灣還有一些它這個土地就是不能夠給種植所用我們盡量在那個我們還是認為現在好像大家對我們的綠電已經感覺上好像有點是嫌惡設施我們當然會盡量去找到跟一般的居民"},{"start":518.097,"end":527.625,"text":"能夠大家可以接受但是如果大家認為說光電這個不應該在台灣發展那我們就這樣會想到其他的方法啦那確實這個會對我們現在要馬上面臨RE100的這樣的一個實現"},{"start":534.951,"end":551.55,"text":"我們會考慮很多在台灣我們有其他的方法包括我們用地熱或者我們用小水利不過這都不足以來滿足光電的部分光電我們還是會繼續再找只是很多的數據會讓我們做一個參考作為地點的一個選擇"},{"start":556.115,"end":583.222,"text":"那所以未來如果像這樣子的一個離岸的光電廠你們要繼續測試的話那抗風的它這個抗風的係數有沒有辦法提高我認為如果它沒有辦法滿足這個這樣的一個需求因為可能那個風向的問題啦這一次我們從台南嘉義的那些風來看都是南北向的這個房子啊這個它被捲起來這個屋頂被捲起來"},{"start":585.362,"end":596.891,"text":"大概都是這樣南北向那如果說你是東西向大概就沒有受災那是不是抗風係數的問題那未來有沒有辦法提高光電板的抗風係數這個我們都會從這個這一次的經驗裡面來做學習"},{"start":600.069,"end":622.646,"text":"所以你還不知道我們會學習我想我們會跟這個我們是相信科學的人所以我們會從科學的角度裡面來解決這個問題因為我覺得就是經濟部應該就這個部分真的要通盤性的檢討我們因為有工業技術研究院所以我們工業技術研究院裡面也有綠能研究所"},{"start":623.206,"end":645.596,"text":"他們會對這一次的現象那麼造成這些現象的原因我們會充分的研究好 我希望經濟部通盤的檢討因為畢竟這個能源的政策對於台灣來講是非常重要對於經濟發展也非常重要那如果沒有辦法走這一塊的時候我們必須要了解說下一步我們要怎麼樣做好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1232,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（12時49分）謝謝主席。我想要請農業部的陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：陳部長，我想請問你，關於這一次的清園專案，我們彰化縣農民申請的期限是到7月25號為止，但是現在申請的農民跟農地有多少？我知道在嘉義跟臺南他們可以延後，因為現在災民都在救災，在申報的期限上面，是不是有辦法也跟臺南、嘉義一樣，讓災民延後申報呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，救災跟我們的這些補助，包括您剛才講的稻作的清園，這個部分不在救災的範圍，所以沒有時間限制；第二個就是救災的部分我們雖然是說10天，但是如果需要延長可以延長5天，我們每天幾乎都打電話給地方政府保持聯絡，如果它覺得案件太多，需要延長的話，我們會立即同意的，這個部分請農民可以放心。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以一期稻作的申報還有清園不在這個裡面嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個沒有，用專案輔導的話，我們都沒有所謂的截止日，你只要有真正去繳交、有事實的話，我們都會認，不會因為時間到了就不處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不會因為7月25號到期，還沒有去申報，就不處理，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你這樣講了，要讓農民清楚喔！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會再去講清楚，救助是一件事情，這是專案協助的部分，就沒有時間的限制，只要有受災就可以來申請。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我們水稻的面積是1,800公頃，是全國最大的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：是，而且那時候將近有20%還沒有收。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["陳部長駿季：所以那時候在委員的關心之下，我們特別是把災害穀也納入，這個部分在彰化地區的農民都覺得是一個很不錯的方法。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有因為薇帕颱風也要來了，薇帕颱風如果來的話其實也會延長，因為我們還不知道現在的路徑方向、到底上岸的地點為何，所以在我們不清楚影響範圍的狀況之下，也期望對於農業的災損，農業部這一次可以給予更長的時間，讓農民清楚，再加上二期稻作未來怎麼樣進行，如果目前清園沒有辦法清除現在在上面受損的稻作的話，有可能二期稻作沒有辦法順利，這樣怎麼做呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是希望如果是受災的這些穀，清園的部分就可以直接拿掉，還來得及二期作，如果是現在快要收穫的話，我們都希望能夠來得及二期作，如果是來不及二期作的部分，相對地我們有二期作的這些轉作誘因是可以來支持的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝，你請回。","我想要請交通部陳次長還有內政部董次長，我請兩位來委員會報告，因為這一次的災損很多都涉及到房屋還有車輛的部分，其實上一次在報災損時，大家都感到非常不方便，請問這一次怎麼樣協助災民在申請這些災損、災害救助時，內政部跟交通部能夠從速？先請內政部。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝召委。內政部在行政院的指示之下，我們在7月18號已經透過專案的方式補助，整個災損的方式，我們就是依照院長的指示，以從寬從速的方式來處理，破損範圍在6坪到30坪之內的，我們就是馬上給予補貼，30坪以上的是另外一個金額的補貼，而且我們是以居住事實作為現況的認定，對於每戶來做快速的補助，由地方政府來統籌，由單一窗口來運作，其實在臺南市已經完成相關的房屋登記，而且不是只有屋頂，包括外牆的損毀，還有一些相關居住狀況的損毀，我們都有全部的保護；除了臺南之外，嘉義縣也是一致，災區也都認定了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這一次雖然比較嚴重的是南部，我相信大家都是人飢己飢、人溺己溺，希望內政部跟交通部對於這樣相關的災民補助，一定要從寬從簡，不要只是政策性的宣布，你一定要實際地做啊！"],["董次長建宏：沒有、沒有，我們的錢都已經直接下去跟公所對接了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，你們兩個請回，我請經濟部長。"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：屏東的旭東光電在測試離岸光電浮板系統的海上耐受性，我們看到這一次明顯的嚴重，是沒有辦法承受這個風災。未來離岸光電還能做嗎？離岸光電沒有辦法做的話，你要怎麼做？這是整個能源政策的問題，你趕快回答。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對於這一次颱風造成屏東佳冬的浮台結構承載部分受影響，然後變成漂流，我非常訝異，因為去年有3個比這次颱風更嚴重，但它也是還存在、沒問題的，為什麼這一次颱風會有問題？所以我們在做研究，必須要長期觀察，當然這給我們一個非常好的學習機會。為什麼去年可以，而今年有這個問題？做研究不會只做幾個月，要有一個長期的研究，這一點跟委員報告。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們在太陽能光電這一塊上面，如果離岸風電現在沒有辦法繼續做的話，我是說如果它的抗風能力是不足的情況之下，你要多久時間確定它有沒有辦法繼續做？而目前就我們所知，即便是農地也都拿來做光電，其實我們也發現了，根本不合我們所需的綠電需求，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：不是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你要怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在農地來做綠電的部分，大部分都是農漁來做，底下做養殖、上面做太陽能，這是一種；另外一種，我們會找底下沒有養殖的，大概就是不堪農作的地，這個我們要盤點，全臺灣還有一些土地是不能供種植所用，我們是儘量在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是太靠近民宅。"],["郭部長智輝：不過我們還是認為，現在大家對我們的綠電感覺上好像已經有點是嫌惡設施，我們當然會儘量去找到一般居民能夠接受的，但是如果大家認為光電不應該在臺灣發展，那麼我們就會想其他的方法，但確實這個會對要馬上面臨RE100的實現造成影響，我們會考慮很多，在臺灣我們有其他的方法，包括用地熱或者小水力，不過這都不足以滿足光電的部分，光電我們還是會繼續再找，只是很多的數據會讓我們做一個參考，也做為地點的選擇。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來如果像這樣子的離岸光電廠要繼續測試的話，它的抗風係數有沒有辦法提高？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為如果它沒有辦法滿足這樣的需求，因為可能是風向的問題，這一次我們從臺南、嘉義的那些風災來看，都是南北向房子的屋頂被捲起來，大概都是南北向的，如果是東西向的大概就沒有受災。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是抗風係數的問題？未來有沒有辦法提高光電板的抗風係數？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都會從這一次的經驗來學習。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你還不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會學習，我們是相信科學的人，所以我們會從科學的角度來解決這個問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我覺得經濟部真的應該就這個部分要通盤性檢討，第一個……"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們因為有工業技術研究院，工業技術研究院裡面也有綠能研究所，他們會對這一次造成這些現象的原因做充分研究。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我希望經濟部通盤檢討。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：畢竟能源政策對於臺灣來講是非常重要，對於經濟發展也非常重要，如果沒有辦法走這一塊的時候，我們必須了解下一步要怎麼做。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答。呂玉玲委員，呂玉玲委員不在。","現在請林岱樺委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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漁業發展基金農產品受進口 農害救助基金林務的基金然後接下來就是我們今天談的農業天然災害的救助基金還有農村再生基金所以在這個公益上撥補到這個農業特別收入基金"},{"start":211.311,"end":218.851,"text":"它是好幾個項目所以這個提案寫得很清楚是為了超失彈"},{"start":220.327,"end":248.888,"text":"超適當的不是在做農業天然災害的救助你誤會了我沒有誤會我們有責怪你他刪減的理由是一件事情但是他一旦刪減了以後就會回到遇重22條去處理我沒有要責怪你我們先檢討爭取的方向預算被刪了雖然預算刪了之後還是比7年多那沒有關係"},{"start":251.185,"end":274.458,"text":"萬一不足的時候,我們現在爭取解決的途徑我們現在在討論,我沒有怪你喔我從來到現在為止都沒有跟你理解我所以你不要跟我強辯所以我想說明清楚而已我清楚啊,我剛剛聽了你你的說話我們要爭取,所以我們可以解釋說可以解釋說因為"},{"start":276.587,"end":298.433,"text":"那個理由不是針對天然災害 農業天然災害所以可以 我們要往這個方向去努力這個沒辦法處理 我跟委員報告你給我30秒就好我還負責協調行政院主計總署這個所謂的我們三預算的理由是一件事情決議了以後的結果是另外一件事情接下來"},{"start":300.27,"end":323.717,"text":"特別收入基金可以超支並結算超支並結算也要有經費來源才能夠超支並結算這個112年11月行政院主計總署的報告為了幫你解決這個問題為了幫農民解決問題我想盡辦法找資料喔我都沒有怪你喔我們要往"},{"start":325.213,"end":343.011,"text":"好的方向去争取农民的权益所以我们把这些资料提供给你也就是要帮助农民而且如果从109到111年度特别收入基金就针对"},{"start":345.389,"end":368.046,"text":"農業災害的情況也有超支並結算也有超支並結算我們就往這個方向去努力好不好不過超支並結算也要有經費的來源現在重點就是說我超支並結算過往是用二倍金現在二倍金不能動了我還要再另外找錢不過我要跟委員講就算被動了以後我也想辦法借錢委員來處理"},{"start":370.067,"end":389.955,"text":"你不了解超支並決算沒有關係我非常了解所以我要跟委員超支並決算一定要有經費來源才能做超支並決算請回座你的基金空了嗎完全沒有錢了嗎我的基金所有的基金都有它的科目基金不是一個水庫都可以隨便亂用的請回座"},{"start":393.885,"end":422.099,"text":"不是每個人都會了解這個老公務員也不見得都會了解老公務員真的也都不見得都會了解這個部長這個這個報導當初是為了海上的太陽光電所做的非常大的報導如果大海是一隻狂暴的野獸這主持人說的"},{"start":424.304,"end":452.255,"text":"海上光電廠在這個狂暴的野獸的背上蓋一座太陽城這個我們的董事長打造陳不末的保臉打造陳不末的保臉然後我們經濟部以石油基金的預算"},{"start":454.658,"end":480.854,"text":"一百一十三年度是八千六百多萬一百一十四年度兩千多萬總共一億多的錢請教一下能源署因為這畢竟都是之前核定的跟部長無關除了石油基金補助之外還有其他的科目嗎有沒有其他科目"},{"start":482.708,"end":507.522,"text":"如果還要查的話再順便給我好了好時間的關係然後石油基金收支保管金用辦法規定的也很清楚了這個我們就下次再談然後這個這個是颱風前的的一個照片然後因為丹娜是颱風"},{"start":509.994,"end":525.663,"text":"部長當那是颱風發生之後然後太陽能光電被吹的甚至吹到澎湖都有我一看啊這個當中度颱風啊當那是颱風是中度颱風啊"},{"start":527.793,"end":555.167,"text":"台灣尤其是從屏東上來的颱風哪一個不是從屏東啊從屏東上來之後往台東往花蓮或者是往台灣海峽或者是從屏東然後就往廣東都是一定會經過屏東然後台灣的中度颱風何其多何況台灣的強度颱風"},{"start":558.612,"end":580.813,"text":"何其何其的多所以這個部分我看了也很痛心了因為都是人民的納稅錢然後造成這樣的一個災害真的很痛心然後又不用還貧這只是其中之一如果我們要看其他的"},{"start":583.951,"end":610.667,"text":"其他的都很多你也都看過了我也不講時間的關係我的意見就是說做決策者尤其是公務員尤其是公務員這部長不是你核定的所以在進行這種計畫核定的時候公務員要去思考"},{"start":612.162,"end":631.772,"text":"台湾的气候台风会不可能不知道所以这个部分是一个需要去深思的了好不好我们回去好好检讨这个部分不要再犯这样的一个重要的一个错误好谢谢好谢谢好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1179,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時38分）主席，有請農業部部長，還有經濟部部長。"],["主席：陳部長、郭部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：陳部長，今天都在談114年度公務預算撥補到農業特別基金，這個預算書寫得很清楚，是因為超思蛋，對不對？原因呢？是因為超思蛋，然後刪減了部分的經費。預算法第二十二條規定，立法院審議刪除或刪減之預算項目及金額，不得動支預備金。但法定經費或經立法院同意者，不在此限；災害防救法規定得很明確，部長，可不可以說它是法定經費？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，天然災害救助基金並不是一個法定預算，所有的基金都不是法定預算，那你剛才講的另外那個災防基金就不一樣。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，為了農民，我們要想盡辦法去解釋，我當了30年公務員，都是想盡辦法去解釋，為了農民，為了農民，我再講一次，為了農民。我告訴你一個案例，今年114年度中央選舉委員會預算中的選務經費也被刪減，現在搞大罷免是用哪裡的經費？就是行政院的第二預備金，所以可以用行政院的第二預備金，這個部分……"],["陳部長駿季：我還是跟委員說明……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我只是給你方法，我們給你方法，要想盡辦法為農民爭取權益，何況現在都還沒有不足。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，所有資深的委員都非常清楚，所以過往都不會去刪減我們的公務撥補基金，因為他知道一旦刪減以後，我們在動用二備金的時候是非常困難的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：但是法律規定得很清楚。我們來看這個農業特別收入基金，它下設農業發展基金、漁業發展基金、農產品受進口損害救助基金、林務發展及造林基金，然後接下來就是我們今天談的農業天然災害救助基金還有農村再生基金，所以這個公務預算撥補到這個農業特別收入基金是有好幾個項目，這個提案寫得很清楚，就是為了超思蛋，超思蛋不是在做農業天然災害的救助……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，委員，你誤會了！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我沒有誤會，部長，我沒有責怪你喔！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，它刪減的理由是一件事情，但是它一旦刪減了以後，就會回到預算法第二十二條去處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，我沒有要責怪你……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們現在是檢討爭取的方向。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：預算被刪了，預算刪了之後還是比去年多，那沒有關係，萬一不足的時候，我們現在爭取解決的途徑，我們現在是在討論，我沒有怪你喔！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我到現在為止都沒有怪你，連一句怪你的話都沒有吧？"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以你不要跟我強辯。"],["陳部長駿季：我只是想要說明清楚而已。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我清楚啦！我剛剛都聽了你的說明。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，你剛才就誤會了，就是超思蛋……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們要爭取，我們可以解釋因為那個理由不是針對農業天然災害，所以可以，我們要往這個方向去努力。"],["陳部長駿季：這個沒辦法處理，我跟委員報告，你給我30秒就好……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：如果真的不行，我來負責和行政院主計總處協調。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們刪預算的理由是一件事情，決議以後的結果是另外一件事情。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來，特別收入基金可以超支併決算……"],["陳部長駿季：超支併決算也要有經費來源才能夠超支併決算。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這是112年11月行政院主計總處的報告，我為了幫你解決這個問題，為了幫農民解決問題，我想盡辦法找資料。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我都沒有怪你喔！我們要往好的方向去爭取農民的權益，所以我們把這些資料提供給你，也就是為了要幫助農民，而且從109到111年度特別收入基金針對農業災害的情況也有超支併決算。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們就往這個方向去努力，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：不過超支併決算也要有經費的來源，現在重點就是……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我清楚啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們超支併決算在過往是用二備金，現在二備金不能動了，我還要再另外找錢。不過我要跟委員講，就算被凍了以後，我也想辦法借錢，我要來處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，你不了解超支併決算，沒有關係，回去再請同仁……"],["陳部長駿季：我非常了解，所以我要跟委員講……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，請回座。"],["陳部長駿季：一定要有經費來源才能夠超支併決算。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請回座。你的基金空了嗎？完全沒有錢了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我所有的基金都有它的科目，基金不是一個水庫，不是都可以隨便亂用的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，請回座。並不是每個人都會了解這個，即使是老公務員也不見得都會了解，老公務員真的也不見得都會了解。","郭部長，當初這個節目為了海上的太陽光電做了一個非常大的報導，主持人說：如果大海是一隻狂暴的野獸，海上光電廠是在這隻狂暴野獸的背上蓋一座太陽城。還有這個公司的董事長說這是「打造沉不沒的堡壘」，然後經濟部以石油基金預算來補助，113年度是八千六百多萬，114年度是兩千多萬，總共是一億多。請教一下能源署，因為這畢竟都是之前核定的，跟部長無關，除了石油基金的補助之外，還有其他的科目嗎？有沒有其他科目？如果你們還要查的話，因為時間的關係，就再把書面給我好了。","然後石油基金收支保管及運用辦法的規定也很清楚，我們就等下次再談。","這是在丹娜絲颱風前的一張照片，部長，在丹娜絲颱風發生之後，太陽能光電被吹毀，甚至被吹到澎湖，我一看發現丹娜絲颱風是中度颱風，以往影響到臺灣的颱風，尤其是從屏東上來的颱風，哪一個不是從屏東上來之後往臺東、往花蓮或者是往臺灣海峽？或者是從屏東然後就往廣東，都一定會經過屏東。然後影響到臺灣的中度颱風何其多，影響臺灣的強度颱風何其何其的多，所以我看了也很痛心，因為這都是人民的納稅錢，然後造成這樣的災害，我真的很痛心，而且這又不用環評。部長，這只是其中之一，如果我們看其他的照片，還有很多的損害，你也都看過了，因為時間的關係，我就不講了。我的意見就是說，身為決策者，尤其是公務員，部長，這不是你核定的，在進行這種計畫核定的時候，公務員要去思考臺灣的氣候，不可能不知道會有颱風，所以這個部分是需要去深思的，好不好？你們回去好好檢討，這個部分不要再犯這樣重大的錯誤。好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：我們請召委謝衣鳯質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-21"],"gazette_id":"1146802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及交通部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復\n情形」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146802_00001"}}},{"id":"163227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03307e70a03ca0b92be46332e07a849abc8bc26138795b0e2d4f4f63d7cb167bce8271213e3fc7bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:25:17 - 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所以我郭不會要你背"},{"start":101.584,"end":130.485,"text":"但我要拜託部長回去請經濟部的官員事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣該怎麼回答就怎麼回答不清楚就說不清楚但是不要欺騙但是不要欺騙你只要欺騙都會被打臉我那天臉書PO完了以後媒體跟進報導拍出來的照片大概是這個樣子這個叫99%清理完成報告委員"},{"start":131.499,"end":158.915,"text":"我可以說嗎?可以,請這個案場我也去看了這個案場不是你拍就你拍的這個部分是沒有錯這個有多大你知道嗎?我知道所以我後來秀106個足球場那麼大是,所以我後來秀媒體的空拍圖給你看嘛第二個是第二個,這個地方要清楚啊我們前面12天因為台電在復電的需求是所以都是台電在做"},{"start":159.415,"end":187.511,"text":"他根本沒有辦法清出來但是我們把外圍的外圍都已經清好了就是裡面的這個池子裡面的我們還沒有清你說的都沒有問題啊現在我在質疑的事情是那一天經濟部的次長大衛環委員會如同您今天所講的這個樣子事情是怎麼樣老老實實的跟大家講清楚就好了嗎我有說錯嗎"},{"start":189.039,"end":211.942,"text":"他那天不是這樣回答的耶斬釘截鐵的說99%清理完成了我從當地那邊所得到的檢舉就不是這樣啊我為了怕經濟部說我只拍小部分我還特別7月18號媒體去現場看的空拍圖我秀出來對比給大家看我只有一個point"},{"start":213.826,"end":239.483,"text":"請你需要時間但現實的狀況是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣不要文過是非不要說謊這樣的要求很過分嗎我想委員你說的我們絕對不會文過是非我想我們的市長也不是第一天來當市長是他應該要怎麼回答他非常的清楚是我想這裡面大概大家彼此有一點誤會是我們認為可能是外部沒有關係今天"},{"start":241.204,"end":267.485,"text":"部長要用誤會來解釋沒有關係您就這樣解釋我只希望這種誤會未來不要再發生再往下看今年我們在省中央政府總預算的時候我們為了要尊潔支出特別不要讓政府拿納稅人的錢去搞大內宣我們針對沒宣費啊針對沒宣費統三了百分之六十"},{"start":268.345,"end":295.465,"text":"那統三的60%以後各部會接下來執行的狀況如何我當然會去追嘛那依照預算法相關的規定各個部會每一季沒宣費的費用都要公告那我公告我稍微看了一下就是說我們以去年的Q1跟今年的Q1來比行政機關指的是經濟部本部跟其他相關的機關Q1的沒宣費大概花了600多萬"},{"start":296.906,"end":311.918,"text":"然後去年的Q1花了400多萬那我看了這個數字以後我覺得有點奇怪那怎麼刪了60%你們Q1花的錢比去年的Q1還多是你們集中把沒宣費都擠到第一季還是有經費流用的狀況"},{"start":314.051,"end":332.739,"text":"這個部分我要了解一下 要了解一下嗎 好沒有關係 那我請部長回去了解一下以後把數字給我可以嗎 可以 一個禮拜夠不夠 可以可以嗎 好下來那從經濟部的做法就會知道主管機關應該按月公開媒體宣傳業務的主題跟金額 這個是當初"},{"start":334.6,"end":352.67,"text":"在修訂預算法62條之一的時候那大家希望能夠貫徹的價值啊因為在當代的民主法治國家當中邊預算邊預算來進行媒體宣傳怎麼樣避免進行所謂置入性的行銷甚至養媒體這種亂象"},{"start":354.811,"end":379.709,"text":"過去這麼多年 納稅人非常關心 批評也很強烈那最起碼經濟部 做到一件事情我肯定你們都有依法 公布金額那金額數字 剛剛我所提出來的問題 再請部長回去了解接下來請農業部部長農業部有遵守預算法62條之一的規定嗎您說的是媒體的部分是不是 是"},{"start":381.141,"end":405.944,"text":"我相信我們的同仁應該會遵守那如果沒有遵守呢我這個我必須了解了解他們所謂的您說的沒有遵守的部分是哪一個項目就最簡單的吧你們有按記公告嗎有有有按記公告有來我今天早上來質詢前我還在去看農業部本部沒有公布114年媒體宣傳費"},{"start":408.882,"end":437.367,"text":"阿你為什麼說有?是剛剛突然補上去嗎?這個是今天早上的解讀OK我想這個部分我想應該要按計公告 當然要嘛所以如果沒有的話 我現在就問你為什麼沒有嘛我不知道 你不知道 我要去了解好沒有關係 需要多少時間了解這個下午我馬上就可以了解了下午馬上了解 好下午下班以前為什麼沒有公告?為什麼沒有公告?下午下班以前書面回覆"},{"start":438.377,"end":465.504,"text":"有沒有問題可以不要到時候承辦人又打電話到我辦公室說我們都已經公文簽出去了長官不在沒有辦法回覆簽出來拜託再等一等又不曉得要拖到什麼時候我想我回應一定是說下班以前回覆沒有問題嗎可以因為按照規定即使你半毛都沒有花都應該要公告說我半毛都沒有花"},{"start":466.212,"end":475.248,"text":"我也要確認 是不是真的半毛都沒有花所以才沒有公告 我還下去找我透過我們的標案系統看 不是啊"},{"start":476.297,"end":497.13,"text":"你們農業部 華市 民視 三立通通都有今年執行的案子啊為什麼沒有依法公告他納稅的人知道嗎這種依法應該要做的事情就要做啦這個我相信部長應該不會否認啦回去搞清楚為什麼該做沒有做我下一個問題"},{"start":500.43,"end":527.851,"text":"當初啊 我們的前同事蘇志芬委員給他接中央續產會的董事長一堆酬庸的批評都出來那當然 你們說這個是借重償財啊 推動改革給他一年年薪將近三百萬中央續產會的董事長這樣的位置去做現在我只有個問題中央續產會董事長他的業務繁不繁重 還是很閒"},{"start":529.144,"end":553.079,"text":"我想中央區長會是負責整個的是我知道他負責什麼現在我只關心他是整天沒事幹嗎還是業務很繁重一年領三百萬到底在幹些什麼事情我跟委員報告就是中央區長會特別我邀請他來以後希望說他第一個針對整個區長會的制度上面做一個精進跟改革第二個部分是"},{"start":554.26,"end":564.416,"text":"針對現在目前比較重要的豬跟雞的整個的產銷我希望說他能夠建立一個有效的一個系統所以我相信他一定是積極在處理這方面的事情所以他工作反不反送"},{"start":565.188,"end":582.072,"text":"我想我沒有辦法代替他回答沒有辦法代替他回答因為如果啦看你們編的預算嘛一年大概他薪資的部分大概變了284萬嘛有的沒有加起來啦大概是這個薪水這個薪水不能說低但我現在的問題是什麼來看一下我去雲林的時候"},{"start":590.85,"end":612.637,"text":"鄉親給我的投訴是中央續產會董事長很閒是不是一天到晚在雲林裡面搞大罷免你晚上假日你自己休息的時間你有你的政治主張自由我沒意見中央續產會的辦公室是在雲林嗎還是董事長不用進辦公室沒關係"},{"start":614.082,"end":620.371,"text":"一天不得分零下不大罷免還有上班的時間在這樣搞的部長 適合嗎還是這是農業部鼓勵的"},{"start":623.715,"end":647.198,"text":"我想第一個部分以農業部來講我們農業部部本部本身包括我們所屬工研系的行政中立中央市場會需不需要行政中立這個法人的部分就不需要沒有我還沒有講完法人的部分其實我們也希望說他在正式上班時間的時候是一個行政中立那私底下他的任何的行為這我剛講過了嘛"},{"start":648.419,"end":671.191,"text":"阿如果上班的時間跑去宣傳大罷免 農業部要不要處理是嗎不是 上班的時間 這個牽涉到因為我們人都有可以有請假我現在不瞭解他實際的那個沒關係阿 你去瞭解清楚嘛我會有這些照片就雲林的鄉親我去雲林的時候跟我投訴阿所以我們中央續產會很閒阿"},{"start":673.305,"end":686.505,"text":"一天到晚在雲林搞大罷免你納稅人的錢在幹這種事情適合嗎?真的適合嗎?請部長回去了解一下可以嗎?我可以可以去了解可以齁可以去了解需要多少時間?"},{"start":687.935,"end":706.658,"text":"一樣下班以前回覆可以嗎沒有辦法喔因為需要多久等726搞完以後再回覆嗎我必須了解沒關係你需要多久我現在沒辦法很確定的告訴你所以需要多久你也沒辦法跟我講續產會有續產會我們所有的需要資料都是續產會都要用公開的方式去"},{"start":707.678,"end":734.188,"text":"他不是我們直屬的公務系統可以馬上一通電話就可以搞定所以相對的他本身你所提到他在上班時間做一些其他的非上班的業務那這個部分他們也要去了解所以這個了解我不知道要多久嘛我現在沒有辦法確定很有可能726以後才會有答案嘛對我來講我沒有726這種概念最好是沒有啦你納稅人的錢搞這種事啊我看不下去啦"},{"start":735.213,"end":748.585,"text":"我看不下去啊你要不然你要不然你要不然就回家吃自己你拿納稅人的錢上班時間在搞這種事情這什麼政府啊"},{"start":750.558,"end":775.077,"text":"這哪門是行政中立啊納稅人付錢給你薪水是在幹這種事齁我現在不了解但是相對他如果是請假的方式齁那相對的請假以外的事情是他個人的事情所以在我還沒有了解他實際的狀況之下我不做任何的一個評論沒關係啊 那我就等啊等農業部看什麼時候回覆啦不管726之前還是726之後這件事情我一定會追究到底好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1078,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請經濟部部長、農業部部長。"],["主席：請郭部長、陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位部長好。因為時間的關係，直接進入詢答。上個禮拜在衛環委員會我們非常關心風災之後光電板對環境所造成的污染，特別在新塭那邊的滯洪池，我直接問當時備詢的經濟部次長清理完了沒有，結果他跟我說99%清理完了。官員在國會裡面詢答，我基本上都是採取信任的態度，但是我從嘉義那邊所得到的陳情完全不是這麼回事。我第二天找人去看，簡報上是第二天帶回來的照片，這是哪門子的99%清理完成？請部長回答。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想您所垂詢的這部分應該聽起來是岸邊……"],["黃委員國昌：不對，那天講得很清楚，我關心的就是滯洪池，他事後要怎麼發新聞稿、文過飾非是他個人的問題，詢答的內容清清楚楚，在立法院裡面全部全程轉播，所有的人都可以公評。部長，你不是本人，所以我不會要你背鍋，但我要拜託部長回去請經濟部的官員，事情是怎麼樣就怎麼樣，該怎麼回答就怎麼回答，不清楚就說不清楚，但是不要欺騙，你只要欺騙都會被打臉。我那天臉書po完了以後，媒體跟進報導，拍出來的照片大概是簡報上這個樣子，這個叫99%清理完成？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我可以說嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，請。"],["郭部長智輝：這個案場我也去看了，這個案場不是你拍……就你拍的這個部分是沒有錯，這個有多大，你知道嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：我知道，所以我後來秀……"],["郭部長智輝：106個足球場那麼大。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我後來秀媒體的空拍圖給你看嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：第二個，這個地方要清除，我們前面12天因為台電有復電的需求，所以都是台電在做，他根本沒有辦法清出來，但是我們把外圍都已經清好了，就是裡面的池子我們還沒有清，也許我們……"],["黃委員國昌：你說的都沒有問題，現在我在質疑的事情是，那一天經濟部的次長到衛環委員會如同您今天所講的這個樣子，事情是怎麼樣，老老實實地跟大家講清楚就好了，我有說錯嗎？他那天不是這樣回答的，他斬釘截鐵地說99%清理完成了，但是我從當地那邊所得到的檢舉就不是這樣啊！我為了怕經濟部說我只拍小部分，還特別在7月18日把媒體去現場看的空拍圖秀出來給大家看。我只有一個point，清理需要時間，但現實的狀況是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣，不要文過飾非，不要說謊，這樣的要求很過份嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我想委員您說的，我們絕對不會文過飾非。我想我們的次長也不是第一天來當次長，他應該要怎麼回答，他非常地清楚，我想這裡面大概大家彼此有點誤會，我們認為可能是外部影響到……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係。今天部長要用「誤會」來解釋，沒有關係，您就這樣解釋，我只希望這種誤會未來不要再發生。","再往下看。今年在審中央政府總預算的時候，我們為了撙節支出，特別不要讓政府拿納稅人的錢去搞大內宣，我們針對媒宣費統刪了60%，統刪了60%以後，各部會接下來執行的狀況如何，我當然會去追。依照預算法相關的規定，各部會每一季的媒宣費費用都要公告，我把公告稍微看了一下，以去年的Q1跟今年的Q1相較，行政院機關（指的是經濟部部本部跟其他相關機關）Q1的媒宣費大概花了六百多萬，去年的Q1則是花了四百多萬。我看了這個數字之後覺得有點奇怪，怎麼刪了60%，你們Q1花的錢比去年的Q1還多？是你們集中把媒宣費都擠到第一季，還是有經費流用的狀況？"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我要了解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：要了解一下嘛！好，沒有關係，請部長回去了解一下以後把數字給我可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜夠不夠？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。從經濟部的作法就會知道主管機關應該按月公開媒體宣傳業務的主題跟金額，這個是當初在修訂預算法第六十二條之一的時候，大家希望能夠貫徹的價值，因為在當代的民主法治國家當中編預算進行媒體宣傳，怎麼樣避免進行所謂置入性行銷，甚至養媒體這種亂象，過去這麼多年，納稅人非常關心，批評也很強烈，最起碼經濟部做到一件事情我很肯定，你們都有依法公布金額，那金額、數字，對於剛剛我所提出來的問題，再請部長回去了解。","接下來請農業部部長，農業部有遵守預算法第六十二條之一的規定嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：您說的是媒體的部分，是不是？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳部長駿季：我相信我們的同仁應該會遵守。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有遵守呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我必須去了解，就是您所謂沒有遵守的部分是哪一個項目。"],["黃委員國昌：就最簡單的嘛！你們有按季公告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有按季公告。"],["黃委員國昌：有？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["黃委員國昌：我今天早上來質詢前，我還再去看了農業部本部沒有公布114年媒體宣傳費，你為什麼說有？是剛剛突然補上去嗎？這個是今天早上的截圖。"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分應該要按季公告。"],["黃委員國昌：當然要嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：所以如果沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就問你為什麼沒有嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我不知道，所以我要去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：你不知道？"],["陳部長駿季：我要去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，需要多少時間了解？"],["陳部長駿季：下午我馬上就可以了解了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，下午下班以前，為什麼沒有公告？為什麼沒有公告？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我會去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：下午下班以前書面回復，有沒有問題？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以？不要到時候承辦人又打電話到我辦公室說：我們都已經公文簽出去了，長官不在，沒有辦法回復簽出來，拜託再等一等。這又不曉得要拖到什麼時候。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我回應一定是說……"],["黃委員國昌：下班以前回復，沒有問題嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！因為按照規定，即使半毛都沒有花，都應該要公告說半毛都沒有花，我為了要確認是不是真的半毛都沒有花，所以才沒有公告，我還下去找，我透過標案系統看，不是啊！你們農業部、華視、民視、三立統統都有今年執行的案子，那為什麼沒有依法公告？怕納稅人知道嗎？這種依法應該要做的事情就要做，我相信部長應該不會否認。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這一定要。"],["黃委員國昌：回去搞清楚為什麼該做沒有做。","下一個問題，當初讓我們的前同事蘇治芬委員接中央畜產會董事長，一堆酬庸的批評都出來，當然你們說這是借重長才、推動改革，給他一年年薪將近300萬去坐中央畜產會董事長這樣的位子。現在我只有一個問題，中央畜產會董事長的業務繁不繁重？還是很閒？"],["陳部長駿季：中央畜產會是負責整個的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我知道他負責什麼，現在我只關心他是整天沒事幹嗎？還是業務很繁重？一年領300萬，到底在幹些什麼事情？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我邀請他來中央畜產會，特別希望第一個，針對整個畜產會在制度上面做一個精進跟改革；第二個部分是針對目前比較重要的豬跟雞整個產銷，我希望他能夠建立一個有效的系統，所以我相信他一定是積極在處理這方面的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：所以他工作繁不繁重？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我沒有辦法代替他回答。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有辦法代替他回答！因為看你們編的預算，他的薪資部分一年大概編了284萬，有的、沒有的加起來大概是這個薪水。"],["陳部長駿季：我只了解法人……"],["黃委員國昌：這個薪水不能說低，但我現在的問題是什麼？看一下，我去雲林的時候，鄉親給我的投訴是中央畜產會董事長很閒是不是？一天到晚在雲林裡面搞大罷免，晚上、假日、自己休息的時間，你有你的政治主張自由，我沒意見，中央畜產會的辦公室是在雲林嗎？還是董事長不用進辦公室沒關係？一天到晚在雲林那邊搞大罷免，還有上班的時間在這樣搞的！部長，適合嗎？還是這是農業部鼓勵的？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，以農業部來講，我們農業部部本部本身，包括我們所屬公務員系統，一定是行政中立，至於這些……"],["黃委員國昌：中央畜產會需不需要行政中立？"],["陳部長駿季：法人的部分，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：就不需要？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我還沒有講完。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳部長駿季：法人的部分，其實我們也希望他在正式上班時間的時候是行政中立，私底下他的任何行為……"],["黃委員國昌：這我剛剛講過了嘛！如果上班的時間跑去宣傳大罷免，農業部要不要處理？適任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，上班的時間牽涉到……因為我們人都可以有請假，我現在不了解他實際的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係！你去了解清楚嘛！我會有這些照片，就是雲林的鄉親在我去雲林的時候跟我投訴，說中央畜產會很閒，一天到晚在雲林搞大罷免，領納稅人的錢在幹這種事情適合嗎？真的適合嗎？請部長回去了解一下，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我可以去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：可以喔？"],["陳部長駿季：可以去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多少時間？一樣，下班以前回復可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有辦法，因為第一個……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我……"],["黃委員國昌：等726搞完以後再回復嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我必須了解就是……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我現在沒有辦法很確定的告訴你。"],["黃委員國昌：所以需要多久，你也沒辦法跟我講？"],["陳部長駿季：因為相對的，畜產會有畜產會……我們所有需要的資料，畜產會都要用公文的方式去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳部長駿季：它不是我們直屬的公務系統，可以馬上一通電話就可以搞定。所以相對的，你所提到他在上班時間做一些其他非上班的業務，這個部分他們也要去了解，因為這個了解我沒有辦法現在馬上確定。"],["黃委員國昌：不知道要多久嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我現在沒辦法確定。"],["黃委員國昌：很有可能726以後才會有答案嘛！是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：對我來講，我沒有726這種概念。"],["黃委員國昌：最好是沒有啦！領納稅人的錢搞這種事，我看不下去啦！我看不下去啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說，不用那麼大聲，你不需要那麼大聲。"],["黃委員國昌：要不然就回家吃自己，拿納稅人的錢上班時間在搞這種事情，這什麼政府啊？這哪門子行政中立啊？納稅人付錢給你薪水是在幹這種事喔？"],["陳部長駿季：我現在不了解，但是相對的，他如果是請假的方式，相對的請假以外的事情是他個人的事情，所以在我還沒有了解實際狀況之下，我不做任何評論。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊！那我就等啊！等農業部看什麼時候會回復。不管726之前，還是726之後。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情我一定會追究到底。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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所以說基本上這一個"},{"start":37.845,"end":55.74,"text":"目前的這個預算的殖民都有在處理那現實上來說我們看到這個保護農民的部分大概基本上損失大概是只有25%整體來說是這樣子所以我們現在看到的是說以在目前為止天然災害"},{"start":56.781,"end":84.575,"text":"還有包括這個農業保險應該是透過雙軌的方式不同層別那另外一個是屬於個人的經濟的韌性有三層的作用來面對這個天災那現在有一個出現的問題天然災害的這個部分我們做強化但個人的部分我們也需要強化但是保險的部分我們目前看到是最弱化的部分舉文旦的例子為例你最高理賠金額只有40%"},{"start":85.856,"end":105.062,"text":"而最大的級數多少 14級而已可是這次 主委 這是高達16級欸你極端企劃沒有納入欸你當你這個保險保單的設計當中應該予以提高 給付應該提高你給付不夠高 相對覆蓋率就不會高部長 這有檢討的空間啊"},{"start":108.863,"end":132.78,"text":"我跟委員報告這次大概理賠是用14級封40%如果它17級封的話就是100%那我也請我們的農進署這邊那個保單一定要滾動檢討如果沒有達到農民需要理賠而沒有理賠到我覺得它就不是一個好的保單我現階段就是許許多多農民跟我講說我都問他說田園災還沒搞"},{"start":135.561,"end":145.987,"text":"農業保險可以撥來倒但是沒辦法撥來倒為什麼因為誘因不足嘛所以趁這個機會來說就任性的部分的話我要請部長這個整個農業保險的部分要回去徹底的減少"},{"start":151.19,"end":171.483,"text":"這個我已經跟你講過好幾次還有包括個人經濟任性的部分還有包括所謂的這個農民退休儲金我上次也講啊我也不曉得你報的怎麼樣啊都沒有進度啊我跟委員報告農民退休儲金這個部分大概我們已經跟行政院已經報告 溝通好了嗎已經相關的溝通已經大概完成了什麼時候要宣布"},{"start":172.043,"end":198.961,"text":"那這個部分可能會在因為他是需要修法的嘛需要修法我們一定是在下個會議一定會送進來好 接下來我就在講啊在這剛剛在談就是說有關於你的農 漁 牧你這個補助的標準應該要雷同啊認定的基準也應該雷同啊譬如說我們給你舉一個例子我們最近在奔波在低層的時候就看到一個問題你婚姻額外的步驟跟額外的步驟"},{"start":201.513,"end":207.339,"text":"基本上金額就差非常多 一個公園11萬 一個天2萬5但是額外補助額外申請分額要5倍 額外的補助是5分之1我舉個例子 昨天就有一個里長跟我complain 他3.75公頃補助起來換起來不到5千塊"},{"start":226.761,"end":236.129,"text":"為什麼 因為你把間接的成本在你的航照圖生產的面積以外它的底牌啊 主要在那邊長小 你都不算面積這樣認定過於重演啦所以以致於民怨不斷啦"},{"start":243.53,"end":259.186,"text":"部長 這個有檢討的空間啊第一個你要知道這個每一個養殖項目的成本的部分你要先徹底的了解第二個部分你要去清楚的知道這一個實質的這個整個養殖的方式是如何"},{"start":259.887,"end":273.478,"text":"部長你可以檢討一下啦這第一我第二個來講包括你傳統的畜牧業部分堆肥室的部分你補足一片差不多250萬元是最上層鋼琴成本差不多一千這差不多現金大差不多八千一萬"},{"start":276.44,"end":300.263,"text":"您講的都差不多10分之一而已啦現實上差太多啦如果相對於農漁木我剛剛講在比較上這有需要調整的空間啦 部長這麻煩回去稍微處理一下好不好好 第一個我跟委員報告就是救助金本身的一個金額的調整會隨著物價而調整我們大概上次已經說的我們大概每半年到一年都會調整一次"},{"start":300.583,"end":322.292,"text":"那問題是就算是少啦然後第二個就是說因為這一次部分特別像敘事的部分因為你要去調整救助金我們用補助的方式專門補助的方式來協助他能夠度過這次人狼關我跟你講這兩個項目你就回去幫我檢討一下我請董事上來一下你會後給我回覆啦這兩個強烈的在表達不滿董事"},{"start":330.214,"end":330.355,"text":"來 謝謝部長請回"},{"start":334.664,"end":363.276,"text":"總之16年前的八八風災的這個土石流需要一套SOP的方式也就是議城古島區今年度消防署公布的這個資料剛好是在丹麥斯颱風來了一周框了13個縣市這個古島區台南市是零台南市是零喔結果整個台南市這次形成了多少古島沿海一帶都是古島好幾個部落都是古島我調了一下113年的數字台南還有一處在南化那為什麼我們的議城古島區台南都變成零"},{"start":364.016,"end":387.137,"text":"因為你從土石流的概念來思考這個孤島而已嘛那天災難道只有土石流而已嗎所以跟委員報告我們消防署雖然說目前已經有那個之前的決議是說這些地方被刪除但是我們會重新再去討論那一塊而且部長也指示過我們針對整個孤島地區會重新做一個新的討論這些孤島地區在這是以我選區七股的西寮頂山沿城"},{"start":388.138,"end":416.907,"text":"完全都是每一個都不同的孤島就是脆弱的沿海地帶當中應該納入救災的準備機制啊市長我未來會檢討未來會檢討這裡頭就非常的清楚包括北門都是這樣子嘛至少之所以會形成這個孤島除了風力之外還有一個你知道嗎它在第一個時間點颱風登陸的時候整個七股的沿海的這個浮標測到最高的這個浪高是5.7啊你們說海水倒灌居民說那是海嘯"},{"start":419.032,"end":433.152,"text":"所以進來之後為什麼會變成這樣子細節我不跟你講七谷的沙洲的整個修築的這個海堤啊能量都非常有限那之前這兩個缺口不用是"},{"start":434.493,"end":454.784,"text":"兩個沙洲不管是盲阿寮還是青山港都處於侵蝕的階段甚至變破體以至於海水會倒灌倒灌進來之後我曾經去會堪過我曾經也開過協調會會堪協調會之後呢每個部會中央所屬不同的部會包括你內政部也好包括經濟部也好互相"},{"start":456.045,"end":474.06,"text":"說不是他的責任另外地方也有地方的管轄範圍所以分屬各地我以為啊用一個方式可以解決就是台南市把它列入一級的海岸的防護啊以前一級海岸防護都是本島離島不算那發現你們在109年6月就已經把台南一級防護納進去了69公里海岸線了是"},{"start":477.193,"end":497.805,"text":"那結果呢 時間過了幾年 過了五年了有沒有做 沒有做我簡單的講 重點的說 兩個方式一個呢 離岸這一個堤防要不要蓋你要跟啦 這一個啦 經濟部水利署對 國家公運署跟水利署已經合作 我們會來處理什麼時候 什麼時候 我上次協調會兩邊還推來推去啦我們儘快來處理 什麼時候"},{"start":502.407,"end":522.633,"text":"下禮拜給本席一個答覆好可以嗎下禮拜給本席一個答覆另外一個中期的部分可以做的就是海雜門海雜門有550億的這個水利工程或經濟部的水利署在不在來署長來署長這個海雜門有沒有效龍山的海雜門開下去就有了這邊沿海地帶有幾個海雜門"},{"start":524.607,"end":538.384,"text":"報告委員這個是大寮排水大寮排水有沒有海雜滿它規劃設計有也核定的那目前是還沒有那因為當初市政府這個完成治理規劃以後"},{"start":540.467,"end":553.202,"text":"地方的居民對於海雜門的使用的部分還有些疑慮但是規劃完這是地方居民跟我要求的現在有疑慮嗎所以我們現在如果說市政府認為可以來做我們會來考慮納到我們下一階段"},{"start":557.367,"end":563.45,"text":"是 準備好 當場來宣布到底需要蓋幾個海雜門的應急工程開始來施作是 如果我們要依照市政府所核定的內容我們會來積極協助還有包括那個離岸堤防沒有問題 也是美根委員報告針對離岸堤防大概有需要那個沙長帶破損目前我們會全力幫忙在公共工程委員會附件勘栽馬上來處理會全力來負責 沒有問題"},{"start":586.582,"end":595.326,"text":"好不好 這個我們會跟市政府一起努力這些都要現場要有說明沒有問題 這才是真正的長期的solution的方案我們會跟內政部一起來努力好 謝謝兩位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1011,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時15分）謝謝主席，先請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長，臺南這一次的天災農損第一名，高達45%，就過往的平均農損，每年大概要121億，但是我們現金的補助大概只有31億，我剛剛聽您講或許今年會超過平均值吧！"],["陳部長駿季：去年其實就已經超過75億了。"],["郭委員國文：對，基本上目前預算的支應你們都有在處理，以現實狀況來說，我們看到保護農民的部分基本上損失大概是25%，整體來說是這樣子。我們現在看到的是到目前為止，天然災害以及農業保險應該是透過雙軌的方式，兩者是不同層別，另外一個則是屬於個人經濟的韌性，總共有三層作用來面對天災。現在出現一個問題，天然災害的部分我們予以強化，個人的部分也需要強化，但是我們目前看到保險的部分是最弱化的部分。以文旦為例，你最高理賠金額只有40%，最大級數只有14級而已，可是這次高達16級，你們沒有把極端氣候納入耶！在這個保險的保單設計當中，給付理當提高，你給付不夠高，相對覆蓋率就不會高。部長，這個有檢討的空間。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這次理賠是用14級風40%，如果17級風的話就是100%，我也請農金署注意保單一定要滾動檢討，如果農民需要理賠而沒有理賠，那我覺得它就不是一個好的保單。"],["郭委員國文：現階段有許許多多農民跟我反映，我都跟他們說天然災害補不夠，農業保險可以補足，但是他們卻沒有，為什麼？因為誘因不足嘛！所以趁這個機會，就韌性的部分，請部長針對農業保險回去澈底檢討，這個問題我已經跟你講過好幾次了。另外，個人經濟韌性的部分還包括所謂的農民退休儲金，這我上次也講過，我也不曉得你辦得怎麼樣，都沒有進度啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，針對農民退休儲金的部分，我們跟行政院已經溝通過……"],["郭委員國文：溝通好了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：相關的溝通已經大概完成了。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候要宣布？"],["陳部長駿季：因為它是需要修法的，我們在下個會期一定會送進來。"],["郭委員國文：好，剛剛在談有關於農、漁、牧的補助標準應該要雷同，認定的基準也應該要雷同。舉一個例子，我們最近在基層奔波的時候就看到一個問題，你們對文蛤的補助和對牡蠣的補助金額相差非常多，一個是1公頃11萬元，另外一個是2萬5,000元，牡蠣的成本是文蛤的五倍，結果它的補助卻是文蛤的五分之一。昨天就有一個里長跟我complain，說他3.75公頃換算下來補助不到5,000元，為什麼？因為把間接的成本……在你們航照圖生產的面積以外，他的竹筏必須在那邊作業，但是你們都不列入認定範圍，因為你們的認定過於嚴苛，以至於民怨不斷，部長，這個有檢討的空間。第一，每一個養殖項目的成本你要先澈底了解；第二，你必須清楚知道整個養殖的方式是如何。部長，你可以回去檢討嗎？這是第一個問題。","接下來我再說第二個問題，包括傳統畜牧業的部分，堆肥舍每坪補助大約255元，鋼筋結構大概一坪1,000元，現階段建構成本都在8,000元至1萬元左右，你們補助的差不多只有十分之一而已，現實上差太多了，如果相對於農漁牧，我剛剛講了，在比較上有需要調整的空間，部長，麻煩回去稍微處理一下，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個，救助金本身的金額會隨著物價而調整，我們上次已經說了，大概每半年或一年都會調整一次。"],["郭委員國文：對，問題就是很少啦。"],["陳部長駿季：對。第二個，這次特別像畜舍的部分，因為要去調整救助金，我們用專案補助的方式來協助他能夠渡過這次的難關。至於你剛才講的……"],["郭委員國文：對，你不要再講了，我跟你講，我覺得這兩個項目你就回去幫我檢討一下，我請董次上來一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我們後續會檢討。"],["郭委員國文：你會後跟我回復。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：這兩個都強烈地在表達不滿。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝部長，請回。","董次，16年前88風災的土石流需要一套SOP的方式，也就是易成孤島地區，今年度消防署公布資料剛好在丹娜絲颱風到來的前一週，匡列了13個縣市，而易成孤島地區的數量，臺南市是0，臺南市是0喔！結果這次整個臺南市形成了多少孤島？沿海一帶都是孤島，好幾個部落都是孤島。我調了一下113年的數字，臺南還有1處在南化區。為什麼臺南的易成孤島區數量會變成0？因為你們從土石流的概念來思考這個孤島而已，但天災難道只有土石流而已嗎？"],["董次長建宏：是。跟委員報告，我們消防署雖然之前的決議是這些地方被刪除，但是我們會重新再去討論那一塊，而且部長也指示過，我們針對整個孤島地區會重新做新的討論。"],["郭委員國文：這些孤島地區災區，以我的選區七股的西寮、頂山、鹽埕來看，每一個完全都是不同的孤島，次長，脆弱的沿海地帶應該納入救災的整備機制。"],["董次長建宏：對，我們未來會檢討，把這個部分也納入。"],["郭委員國文：未來會檢討？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["郭委員國文：這裡頭非常地清楚，包括北門都是這樣子。之所以會形成這些孤島，除了風力之外，還有一個因素，你知道嗎？颱風在登陸的第一個時間點，整個七股沿海的浮標測到最高的浪高是5.7公尺，你們說是海水倒灌，但居民說那是海嘯。所以進來之後為什麼會變成這樣子？細節我不跟你講，七股沙洲整個修築的海堤能量都非常有限。"],["董次長建宏：這部分我們……"],["郭委員國文：之前這兩個缺口……兩個沙洲不論是網仔寮或青山港，都屬於侵蝕的階段，甚至變破堤，以至於海水會倒灌，倒灌進來之後……我曾經去會勘過，也開過協調會，會勘、協調會之後，中央所屬不同的部會包括內政部也好、包括經濟部也好，互相說不是自己的責任；另外，地方也有地方的管轄範圍，所以分屬各地。我以為用一個方式就可以解決，就是臺南市把它列入一級海岸的防護，現在一級海岸防護都是針對本島，離島不算，我們發現你們在109年6月就已經把臺南一級防護的部分納進69公里的海岸線了。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["郭委員國文：結果時間過了幾年？過了5年了，有沒有做？沒有做。我簡單地講、重點地說，有兩個方式，一個是離岸堤防要不要蓋？"],["董次長建宏：這部分國家公園署……"],["郭委員國文：你要跟經濟部水利署……"],["董次長建宏：對，國家公園署跟水利署已經合作，我們會來處理。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候？"],["董次長建宏：我們儘快來處理。"],["郭委員國文：我上次召開協調會的時候，兩邊還推來推去啦！"],["董次長建宏：我們儘快來處理。"],["郭委員國文：儘快來處理，什麼時候？下禮拜一給本席一個答復，可以吧？"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["郭委員國文：下禮拜一給本席一個答復。另外一個，中期的部分可以做的就是海閘門，海閘門有550億的水利工程，經濟部水利署在不在？署長，這個海閘門有沒有效？龍山的海閘門蓋了就有效。這邊沿海地帶有幾個海閘門？"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，這個是大寮排水……"],["郭委員國文：大寮排水有沒有海閘門？"],["林署長元鵬：規劃設計有，也核定了。"],["郭委員國文：對，現在就是沒有，你什麼時候要蓋嘛？"],["林署長元鵬：目前是還沒有，因為當初市政府完成治理規劃以後，地方的居民對於海閘門使用的部分還有些疑慮，但是規劃完成了。"],["郭委員國文：這是地方居民跟我要求的，現在有疑慮嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：對，所以現在如果市政府認為可以做，我們會考慮納到下一階段治水……"],["郭委員國文：下禮拜我要會勘，你們準備好……"],["林署長元鵬：我們會全力來幫忙，沒有問題。"],["郭委員國文：當場來宣布到底需要蓋幾個海閘門的應急工程，趕緊來施作。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會依照市政府所核定的內容積極協助。"],["郭委員國文：還有包括離岸堤防也一併回答本席。請董次……"],["林署長元鵬：沒有問題。順便跟委員報告，針對離岸堤防沙腸袋破損，目前我們會全力幫忙，在公共工程委員會復建勘災馬上來處理……"],["郭委員國文：準備好，下個禮拜二我們地方見，好不好？"],["林署長元鵬：會全力來負責，沒有問題，我們會跟市政府一起來努力。"],["郭委員國文：這些在現場都要有所公布。"],["林署長元鵬：沒有問題，我們會全力協助。"],["郭委員國文：這才是真正長期solution的方案。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會跟內政部一起來努力，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請黃國昌委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-18","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","張嘉郡","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","陳超明","邱志偉","林俊憲","郭國文","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林岱樺","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-07-21"],"gazette_id":"1146802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1146802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、農業部部長、內政部首長及交通部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復\n情形」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1146802_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}