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這個行動電話與中華電信現在是通的啦那可能有一些地方的訊號微弱一些 因為還有35台因為鐵塔倒掉 需要一點時間 但是coverage是ok的 但視化"},{"start":89.017,"end":112.967,"text":"釋化因為那個光化交接箱有1800個壞掉這個在骨幹網路我們都修好了但是到家裡的這個部分目前一天派工可以修到三五百戶那現在應該以本來到今天為止應該還有1000多戶但是因為這兩天又淹水了所以有增加所以目前應該還有3000多戶釋化代修"},{"start":113.827,"end":142.937,"text":"OK 這個大概預估我們如果這兩天雨是挺的前提底下大概幾天內會讓市化修復完畢如果天氣好我們一天可以修500到1000戶所以一週左右對 如果是天氣好的話因為如果你又下雨又什麼就會阻礙這個修的部分那這部分我們已經除了台南加以我們也從各縣市調工班加速把這個市化能夠趕快搶修完成"},{"start":143.359,"end":153.191,"text":"那基地台損毀的部分你剛剛說有幾個基地台35台那35台被損毀影響的用戶大概多少"},{"start":155.121,"end":175.927,"text":"35台基本上因為我們用其他台調他的角度所以影響的用戶現在訊號都會通只是比較弱比較弱就不會降速啦簡單講應該是這樣速度變慢那大概用大概有多少範圍估算一下大約有多少用戶可能會受到影響"},{"start":177.809,"end":205.387,"text":"就你簡單講就是說你一般你的記憶台大概平均一天的用戶跟這台記憶台連結的大概有多少是因為以台南嘉義大概三千台啦那有影響的應該也是幾百戶會啦因為比較偏的地方會啦會影響就是譬如說我覺得影響最大的可能是固定用他的手機固定用這幾個台做連結的這些用戶是是是那"},{"start":206.408,"end":226.407,"text":"中華電信有沒有考量說對於這些固定在這附近機器台因為他簡單講他繳了很多的錢譬如說他是繳5G然後量多大譬如說吃到飽結果現在因為這段時間我們沒有辦法達成當時這個契約的約定那你有沒有考量說要減免或者是什麼"},{"start":227.133,"end":252.018,"text":"有這個只要通訊有受准我們就會自動減免因為有這些規定我覺得這應該啦市長這個最基本的嘛那個受傷繳這個錢然後又不能夠達到當時的要求所以應該要適度的給予一些補償對對那另外也NCC跟電信協會協調我們目前也推出這兩個月六百分鐘"},{"start":255.067,"end":264.523,"text":"國內行動打電話語音免費主委其他電信受影響的狀況你有沒有掌握"},{"start":265.218,"end":291.381,"text":"有 那剛剛董事長提到說這個臨時基站有三十多處那其實三家有些供購有些沒有供購大概總共都臨時基站大概四五十處所那這種情況也是另外兩家也是用其他已經修好的基地台調整天氣角度來彌補它的涵蓋率那這種情況之下就像昨天委員所提到的那影響用戶跟他在地"},{"start":292.635,"end":307.765,"text":"那個有關係那其實三家基本上都是以就是補的對象都是張丹所在還有那個戶籍所在為主那這種情況之下三家目前都在基本的法尊上面"},{"start":308.766,"end":330.159,"text":"依據定型化契約來我們要求他們重寬認定所以NCC都已經要求要減免了好那主委另外我們從這一次的狀況可以來發現當他被斷訊譬如說真的風雨交加最嚴重的時候這些訊號中斷了一段時間那是因為後來中華電信業者開始修復"},{"start":333.137,"end":358.831,"text":"那我們的現在的這些行動的裝置就是行動這個基地移動式的基地台這一次有沒有派上用場報告有但是災情最嚴重的時候移動式的行動車大概只有衛星派得上用場那比較傳統的靠微波靠光纖的都相對沒有辦法派上用場因為他沒有電"},{"start":359.952,"end":382.748,"text":"那衛星的這一塊目前能量是還可以再加強因為也是感謝數位部去年補就是補助三家業者每一家十台總共三十台那災害最嚴重的時候幾乎那三十台幾乎都全部拉到原家地區來布建來提供這個通訊涵蓋所以現在我們有三十台裝載這個低軌衛星終端設備的有三十台對那"},{"start":388.469,"end":392.042,"text":"速發部有沒有研究過 或人型研究過 到底我們要多少台"},{"start":394.088,"end":419.895,"text":"在量能上面跟委員報告就是說我們研究過就是目前速發部過去的計畫是已經執行了700多台但是這700多台有一部分是給軍警銷有一部分是給國防使用我們手上現在有196台但是因為今年度我們的獎補助款大幅的減少"},{"start":420.515,"end":448.053,"text":"所以我在去年買了700多台以後我今年並沒有辦法再增加這個量了那你本來預估應該要買多少台到今年為止如果依照我們去年跟前年所規劃的預算就是在700個計畫驗證完以後應該數量要逐年增加那今年應該要增加到2000台左右所以今年只增加到多少預計2000但實際上因為預算被凍結被刪除今年完全沒有增加"},{"start":448.573,"end":475.275,"text":"所以還是700多台對你這700多台是韓景霄國防都在內我們手上只有196台那我們手上能夠調動的只有40幾台那其他的像這一次就沒有辦法調動還是因為需求沒有那麼大因為一開始這個30台車是一個驗證計畫那所以剛剛我也在專案報告裡面有提到就是說我們今年會用前瞻預算去補助"},{"start":475.976,"end":495.786,"text":"把原來的106台車加上衛星的支架那這也是希望未來再增加衛星的接收器的時候這些車子能夠快速的把衛星接收器安裝上去好 所以簡單講就是說我會希望透過這一次的這個風災"},{"start":498.895,"end":523.445,"text":"能夠緊述的將透過這次風災啦其實它就是一個演習嘛就對南部實施受傷但是對於通信的任性而言它其實就是一個最好的實驗場域嘛那所以以這一次來看明顯是沒有辦法在很短的時間內達成這樣的目標嘛簡單講就是說我們可能面對對岸的威脅嘛"},{"start":524.11,"end":545.676,"text":"那你可能在一個時間內 譬如說遭受飛彈攻擊產生一個區域性的破壞 通訊中斷那這時候我們的衛星的設備就應該移動到那個位置那風雨所造成的現象 這一次來看起來我們還是中斷的時間"},{"start":547.761,"end":564.07,"text":"蘇發部有掌握嗎?我們最多在南部的鄉親中斷了多久是完全沒有訊號是完全沒有辦法對外聯繫的跟委員報告因為這個中斷的數字在應變中心這邊有但是這很難去統計因為你有1200多台是中斷的但是我車子進去可能有部分的節點它會恢復那"},{"start":574.375,"end":601.62,"text":"那這樣好了我們發揮作用在多少小時以後因為你數量不夠嘛所以有些地方你無法到達我們其實是在災害應變中心一成立就進駐了就進駐了然後因為南部本來有10台那在大概災害應變中心一成立我就已經跟同仁講說要把其他區域30台全部都調到南部去"},{"start":602.1,"end":629.421,"text":"所以等於這30台在第一個時間斷訊之後就發揮作用28台28台就發揮作用因為南投跟東部他還是要留一台喔 懂你的意思那不管怎樣他就是第一個時間在28台所可以這個有作用的範圍內他就發揮作用當然東部調過去的他可能需要幾個小時但是從中部跟北部調過去的可能就是2到4小時之內就會到位好 所以部件來講"},{"start":631.216,"end":639.487,"text":"兩千多台是預期下一個階段要到達那最終要到達台灣需要多少台你們的預估"},{"start":643.206,"end":666.505,"text":"台灣如果是靠單一的衛星兩千多台可能也是不夠所以我們未來的規劃都是一直多元會再引進其他的新系因為同一個新系它的頻寬也是有上限對它有上限它會達到一個規模就沒辦法再增加另外一個就是說台灣的地形其實非常複雜像我們在東部救災的經驗發現有的新系在花東縱谷沒有訊號"},{"start":667.325,"end":683.876,"text":"有的星系到了太魯閣就沒有訊號因為衛星的方向有的東西向有的南北向市長這個部件你預計還要多少年可以完成包括多元的部件包括數量上的部件大概要多久可以完成"},{"start":685.153,"end":702.193,"text":"我們原來有一個五年的計畫就是針對多重新系本來有一個五年的計畫但是在過去的預算上面都只有通過一年今年是完全沒有預算所以你的預估本來五年可以完成"},{"start":703.423,"end":729.417,"text":"我們本來有一個五年大概有兩千多個五年的意思就是說你預估這個計畫實施完大概就可以完成初步的部件完成應該是這樣子好那主委我覺得下半年又到了馬上又要審明年的預算了我想這個我們大家一起努力一下好不好這個昭偉在這裡我很認真在講給他聽因為他要支持啦好不好加油一下謝謝"},{"start":732.492,"end":735.35,"text":"好 謝謝蔡介昌副院長的執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":161,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時55分）謝謝主席。請NCC陳主委，數發部闕政務次長、中華電信簡董事長。"],["主席：陳主委、闕政次，中華電信簡董事長。"],["闕次長河鳴：委員好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：大家早。南部這種風跟雨的確對南部的鄉親造成很大的傷害，在傷害當中，我想跟今天比較有關的，其實就是我們相關的通訊。我想這一次風災當然現在看起來，氣象局說這兩天雨勢會小、會停，災後的這些復建工作也很重要，藉這個機會，其實也是臺灣對於通訊韌性一個非常好的檢驗。請問董事長，現在中華電信的用戶，還有市話跟手機用戶無法使用嗎？"],["簡董事長志誠：報告委員，行動電話與中華電信現在是通的啦，可能有一些地方的訊號會微弱一些，還有35臺鐵塔倒掉需要一點時間，但是coverage是OK的，市話因為光化交接箱有1,800個壞掉，這個在骨幹網路我們都修好了，但是到家裡的這個部分，目前一天派工可以修到三、五百戶，現在應該……本來到今天為止，應該還有一千多戶，但是因為這兩天又淹水了導致又增加，所以目前應該還有三千多戶市話待修。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK。如果這兩天雨勢停的前提底下，大概預估幾天內會讓市話修復完畢？"],["簡董事長志誠：如果天氣好，我們一天可以修500到1,000戶。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以一週左右？"],["簡董事長志誠：對，如果天氣好的話，但是如果又下雨、又什麼，就會阻礙修的部分。這一部分除了臺南、嘉義，我們也從各縣市調工班，加速把市話趕快搶修完成。"],["蔡委員其昌：基地臺損毀的部分，你剛剛說有幾個基地臺？"],["簡董事長志誠：35臺。"],["蔡委員其昌：35臺被損毀，受影響的用戶大概多少？"],["簡董事長志誠：35臺，基本上因為我們用其他臺調它的角度，所以影響的用戶現在訊號都會通，只是比較弱。"],["蔡委員其昌：就不會降速啦！簡單講應該是這樣。"],["簡董事長志誠：對、對、對。"],["蔡委員其昌：速度變慢嘛。大概有多少範圍？估算一下大約有多少用戶可能會受到影響？簡單講就是說，一般基地臺大概平均一天的用戶跟這個基地臺連結的大概有多少？大概。"],["簡董事長志誠：以臺南、嘉義大概三千臺，有影響的應該也有幾百戶，因為比較偏的地方會受到影響。"],["蔡委員其昌：譬如說，我覺得影響最大的可能是他的手機固定用這幾個臺做連結的這些用戶。"],["簡董事長志誠：是、是、是。"],["蔡委員其昌：中華電信有沒有考量對於這些固定在這附近基地臺，因為簡單講他繳了很多的錢，譬如說他是繳5G，然後量多大，譬如說吃到飽。結果現在因為這段時間，你們沒有辦法達成當時這個契約的約定，你有沒有考量說要減免或者是什麼？"],["簡董事長志誠：有，只要通訊有受損我們就會自動減免，因為有這些規定啦。"],["蔡委員其昌：我覺得這應該啦，董事長，這個是最基本的。受損繳這個錢，然後又不能夠達到當時的要求，所以應該要適度地給予一些補償。"],["簡董事長志誠：對、對。另外也謝謝NCC跟電信協會協調，我們目前也推出兩個月600分鐘，國內行動打語音電話免費。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，其他電信受影響的狀況，你有沒有掌握？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，剛剛董事長提到說，臨時基站有三十多處，其實三家有些是共構，有些沒有共構，大概總共臨時基站大概四、五十處所，這種情況另外兩家也是用其他已經修好的基地臺調整天線角度來彌補它的涵蓋率，這種情況之下，就誠如委員所提到的，影響用戶跟他所在地有關係。其實三家基本上補的對象都是以帳單所在，還有戶籍所在為主，這種情況之下，三家目前都在基本的法制上面依據定型化契約，我們要求他們從寬認定。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以NCC都已經要求要減免啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對、對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，主委，另外我們從這次的狀況可以發現，當他被斷訊，譬如說真的風雨交加最嚴重的時候，這些訊號中斷了一段時間，後來電信業者開始修復，我們現在的這些行動的裝置，就是移動式的基地臺，這一次有沒有派上用場？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報告有，但是災情最嚴重的時候，移動式的行動車大概只有衛星派得上用場，比較傳統的，靠微波、靠光纖的都相對沒有辦法派上用場，因為它沒有電；衛星的這一塊，目前能量是還可以再加強，也是感謝數位部去年補助三家業者每一家10臺，總共30臺，災害最嚴重的時候，那30臺幾乎全部都拉到雲嘉地區來布建、來提供通訊涵蓋。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以現在裝載低軌衛星終端設備的有30臺？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：數發部有沒有研究過，或是NCC有沒有研究過，到底我們要多少臺？在量能上面。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，我們研究目前數發部過去的計畫是已經執行了七百多臺，但是這七百多臺有一部分是給軍警消，有一部分是給國防使用，我們手上現在有196臺，但是因為今年度我們的獎補助款大幅地減少，所以在去年買了七百多臺以後，我今年並沒有辦法再增加這個量。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們本來預估應該要買多少臺？到今年為止。"],["闕次長河鳴：如果依照我們去年跟前年所規劃的預算，就是在七百個計畫驗證完以後，數量應該要逐年增加，今年應該要增加到2,000臺左右。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以今年只增加到多少？預計2,000，但實際上因為預算被凍結、被刪除。"],["闕次長河鳴：今年完全沒有增加。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以還是七百多臺？"],["闕次長河鳴：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：你這七百多臺是含警消、國防都在內？"],["闕次長河鳴：含警消、國防，我們手上只有196臺，我們手上能夠調動的只有四十幾臺。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK。其他的像這一次就沒有辦法調動？還是因為需求量沒有那麼大？"],["闕次長河鳴：因為一開始30臺車是一個驗證計畫，所以剛剛我也在專案報告裡面有提到，就是說我們今年會用前瞻預算去補助，把原來的106臺車加上衛星的支架，這也是希望未來在增加衛星的接收器的時候，這些車子能夠快速的把衛星接收器安裝上去。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以簡單講就是說，我會希望透過這一次的風災，其實它就是一個演習，對南部實質受傷，但是對於通信的韌性而言，它其實就是一個最好的實驗場域。所以以這一次來看，明顯是沒有辦法在很短的時間內達成這樣的目標，簡單講就是我們可能面對對岸的威脅，可能在一個時間內，譬如說遭受飛彈攻擊產生一個區域性的破壞、通訊中斷，這時候我們的衛星設備就應該移動到那個位置。風雨所造成的現象，以這一次看起來，我們中斷的時間數發部有掌握嗎？我們最多在南部的鄉親中斷了多久是完全沒有訊號？是完全沒有辦法對外聯繫的。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，因為這個中斷的數字災害應變中心這邊很難去統計，因為有一千兩百多臺是中斷的，但是我車子進去可能有部分的節點它會恢復，所以這個要……"],["蔡委員其昌：那這樣問好了，在多少小時以後發揮作用？就是因為數量不夠，所以有些地方無法到達。"],["闕次長河鳴：其實我們是災害應變中心一成立……"],["蔡委員其昌：就進駐了。"],["闕次長河鳴：就進駐了，然後因為南部本來有10台，大概在災害應變中心一成立，我就跟同仁講要把其他區域的……"],["蔡委員其昌：30台全部調到……"],["闕次長河鳴：全部都調到南部去。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以等於這30台在斷訊之後第一時間就發揮作用了？"],["闕次長河鳴：28台。"],["蔡委員其昌：28台就發揮作用了。"],["闕次長河鳴：因為南投跟東部還是要留1台，因為……"],["蔡委員其昌：我懂你的意思，不管怎樣，就是第一時間在28台有作用的範圍內就發揮作用了。"],["闕次長河鳴：對，當然東部調過去的可能需要幾個小時，但是從中部跟北部調過去了，可能就是2到4小時之內就會到位。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以以布建來講，兩千多台是預期下一個階段要到達，那最終要到達的，根據你們的預估，臺灣需要多少台？"],["闕次長河鳴：臺灣如果靠單一的衛星，兩千多台可能也是不夠的，所以我們未來的規劃都是異質多元，會再引進其他的星系，因為同一個星系的頻寬也是有上限的。"],["蔡委員其昌：我懂你的意思，它有上限，達到一個規模就沒辦法再增加了。"],["闕次長河鳴：另外一個就是臺灣的地形其實非常複雜，根據我們在東部救災的經驗，發現有的星系在花東縱谷沒有訊號，有的星系到了太魯閣就沒有訊號，因為衛星的方向有的是東西向、有的是南北向。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，這個布建你預計還要多少年可以完成？包括多元的布建，包括數量上的布建，大概要多久可以完成？"],["闕次長河鳴：我們原來有一個5年的計畫，就是針對多重星系，本來有一個5年的計畫，但是過去的預算都只有通過一年，今年是完全沒有預算。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以你的預估本來5年可以完成？是這樣的意思嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：我們本來有一個5年二千多個。"],["蔡委員其昌：對啦，但5年的意思就是你預估這個計畫實施完大概就可以完成初步的布建？應該是這樣吧？","主委，下半年又到了，馬上又要審明年的預算了，我想這個我們大家一起努力一下，好不好？召委在這裡，我很認真在講給他聽，希望他要支持。"],["闕次長河鳴：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：加油一下，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢。","現在請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163352","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50e37d76c889ddf67f614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f5fd113443f1ac9aa35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:40:21 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其實我們看到剛才有很多委員提到的這些議題我希望我們都能夠去改善 我們就把它改善另外一件事情 我覺得我上次有提醒交通部我還是在也提醒這個數位部這次有很多開口契約的承包商他們是要負責來去排除道路的問題"},{"start":41.201,"end":69.698,"text":"還有排除道路的問題的目的是為了什麼就是為了讓台電能夠進去讓其他的電信設備能夠得到修復可是這一些國內這一些相關的這些契約的這些廠商他們自己的家裡門口就被堵住換言之他們同時沒有視化視化沒有通同時也沒有辦法用手機通話那所以他們沒有辦法請人來排除所以當這一些契約的這一些廠商"},{"start":70.478,"end":96.882,"text":"本身要去執行清通道路的這些廠商他根本沒有辦法去執行這些任務的時候那就導致我們道路首先不能通道路不能通的話台電不能進入台電不能進入的話電信全部都沒有辦法進入所以這些緊急的相關的通訊設備數位部有沒有討論過這些關鍵的這一些來去排除緊急障礙的這些廠商他們自己的在家 居家喔"},{"start":97.082,"end":107.301,"text":"不是公司喔 因為他們接到電話 或者是要接到訊息或者看到狀況的話 他們要去執行公務的時候他們本身他們家裡就必須要有這些緊急通訊的設備不知道有沒有做這些準備"},{"start":109.225,"end":135.552,"text":"跟委員簡單回應就是跨部會要協力的部分在我們災防辦的那個應變中心那邊其實都有協調各部會有遇到什麼狀況要各部會來協調處理像剛剛委員提到說道路不通需要當地政府或者中央部會來協力的部分在那個機制底下會有這個協作會有這個協調通報機制我相信那邊應該可以做一定程度的處理"},{"start":136.854,"end":163.365,"text":"因為就是沒有得到緩解沒有得到處理上次就是有這樣子的例子在所以我這次特別提出來我是希望說數位部可以一起跟他們思考因為隨時都有可能再有下一次的天災那這一些的承包商他們是要排除道路障礙的承包商是要讓電信能夠通訊能夠順利進去來去復原的承包商他們必須要有最基本的通訊設備那這個通訊設備不是只有市化或者是他們手機因為那個時候都沒有通訊所以"},{"start":164.665,"end":176.539,"text":"可能包含緊急的這個無線電的系統或者是因為他們是在某一個鄉鎮裡面他就是負責那個鄉鎮嘛所以他必須要跟公所或者他必須跟消防隊至少有點對接這個應該很好去處理是吧"},{"start":179.682,"end":196.13,"text":"根本的報告其實我相信災防中主管機關其實會有一些衛星大哥大那些都可以來會有一個相關的工具來處理如果他們需要的話他們其實他們已經有這個資源像在IMASA他們都有這個"},{"start":197.13,"end":216.408,"text":"希望說這樣子的方針能夠把他們傳下去讓人家可以得到這些緩解那再來就是今天我特別想提到說上週我將這個大大是颱風的災後重建特別條例草案裡面的建議版本來給行政院參考那其中裡面關於通訊的韌性的強化的部分我有提出的草案的第26條"},{"start":217.449,"end":234.179,"text":"屋裡面有提到說核心局站跟基地財的這個備援能力備援的電力那上次這個愛立信有來拜訪我們的辦公室那有提到說現在的備援就是說這些通信設施的備援大概是他們都在抓四個小時左右"},{"start":234.879,"end":251.829,"text":"那我再想請教一下包含這個抗風結構強化或者是被人定義跟這個傳輸路由的多樣化你們會不會把這個相關的spec把它開出來因為現在很明顯的話那就是四個小時有例如四個小時有想要把它延長這個時限嗎這些看法不知道有沒有得到相關的資訊"},{"start":252.589,"end":275.594,"text":"是 根據您的報告在基地海空地型的話4小時 像剛剛委員所提到4小時是基本配備那高抗災部分是要要求72小時那另外剛剛講說抗風係數目前NCG的審議規範就已經要求要抗15級風那未來如果極端氣候需要再調整我們會跟 我們會來與時並進來檢討這個抗風級數的要求要不要提高"},{"start":278.715,"end":294.469,"text":"好 因為我想就是這一次就把它當成是一個基礎就是說從今天開始我們可能會遇到的這個災損的狀況可能就是由這次NAS颱風作為基礎所以相關的這個規格可能就要以這次為基礎"},{"start":295.129,"end":317.816,"text":"那我當然知道過去我們都會有什麼20年30年等等的標準等等那這一次可能就是未來天災或者是極端氣候可能會成為常態這樣的狀況之下我們的備援電力跟抗風結構能力的這個規格可能要向上提升那向上提升的話當然會付出的預算會比較多所以我們才特別請行政院提出特別的預算把這個多餘的這些成本納入考量"},{"start":318.416,"end":333.313,"text":"那剛才提到的就是我們講到通訊的這個韌性我知道你說災防辦要去做處理災防等等等等但是我還是一樣提到規格就是包含這一次我提到的這些承包商他們也必須納入緊急"},{"start":334.454,"end":362.427,"text":"應變或者是數位韌性的規格裡面也就是說以後我們要求這個相公所也好或者是縣府也好或者是行政院的中央部會也好我們配合的這些契約廠商他必須有一定的通訊能力不是什麼東西都去找政府你竟然要承包這個開口契約來去來去成造這個重要的這個緊急應變你必須要除了你本身之外的這個通訊設備你才可以在你自己需要幫忙的時候可以聯繫到外界"},{"start":362.887,"end":391.322,"text":"你當你自己要去做緊急救助的時候你自己不能夠沒有得到幫助然後你根本出不去那這會延緩很多所以剛才我知道有些委員會說為什麼幾個小時都還沒有過去都還沒有辦法幫助因為有很多的例子是這些執行第一線的這些人員他們根本也在受困的狀況之下甚至是沒有通訊的狀況之下所以我剛才作為立法委員我不是指揮系統的這個一環事實上我認為我想藉著這次機會跟大家講說在指揮系統的一環就是說不可以在"},{"start":392.663,"end":412.796,"text":"在災難的當時所有的民代我們全部都擠到第一線我們應該是可以去關心但是要讓現場的行政的指揮系統他不能夠被我們指指點點我們是在之後在災害之後我們提出來的是我們的政策 我們的規格 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請行政院災害防救辦公室的王主任NCC的代理人 蘇發部的薛政次我先請教王主任"},{"start":37.43,"end":63.271,"text":"今天你們很多官員進來備詢啊都說很多的問題都是因為這次的災害範圍太大嘛對不對就是因為災害範圍太大所以第一時間就要成立前進指揮所啊剛才在說的鳳台七月七日的暗示11點40秒為我故鄉嘉義布袋站起來這災情有多大啊台南郊嘉義一萬八千戶的房子"},{"start":64.246,"end":84.942,"text":"屋頂被掀開了有些連那個牆壁都被摧垮了一萬八千戶耶電線桿將近四千 四千支三千多支 裡面有七支跟八支是在家裡我去看 那個不是摧倒耶是硬生生折斷耶那災情有多嚴重就前進指揮所到了22號才成立"},{"start":86.078,"end":114.485,"text":"行政院發言人還可以在那邊硬拗我在兩三個禮拜前我就一直在講趕快成立前進指揮所因為每次我回去嘉義送物資去救災的時候就看到那個家裡殘破不堪那災民已經跟總統要求了我們防止爬不上去幫忙蓋這個環部國軍來幫忙電信不通啊人民是有請求的所以光是一個前進指揮所就看得出來這是"},{"start":116.837,"end":144.154,"text":"我覺得政府現在真的是對不起民眾因為台灣是一個救災不管是經費方面在這個標準的作業程序上面是非常有經驗的光是一個前進指揮手你去看88風災的時候前進指揮手就在災區嘛那時候派下去的人是誰內政部長廖遼宇啊連美軍都來幫忙耶美軍來幫忙要到哪邊報到前進指揮手啊"},{"start":145.766,"end":166.443,"text":"這次不是很多其他縣市都到台南的家一起幫忙嗎你中央部會中央機關連一個前進指揮所在災區都沒有耶這多離譜的天平颱風的時候也沒有設前進指揮所都有嘛結果行政院第一個你連以前的救災標準程序都不把它做"},{"start":167.389,"end":193.027,"text":"你連災害有多嚴重不去了解這個以前什麼救災都搞不清楚後來出來硬要說我們是第一次成立22天7月7號的凌晨開始有災情到了22號過了15天慢半拍慢15拍你要敢充說以前沒有還說我有這不是笑死人怎麼對不起我們的災民這第一個我們今天要先導正了所以剛才在說這個要補破網"},{"start":194.724,"end":216.485,"text":"主任你要回去你要建立 要跟行政院講清楚我們希望以後不要有天災可是以後要第一時間災區在哪邊中央的力量要進去嘛 為什麼要限前進指揮手各個部會才知道找人啊你像我在當街 我在議場他說房子被掀開了 通訊不通了我們不是幫忙打電話 你們最近都接到電話對不對"},{"start":218.072,"end":245.778,"text":"透過立委或者是鄉鎮市還要去找部會 事情怎麼說會清楚你們是有人住在那邊 各個部會都在那裡你們是要主動去了解狀況 主動去解決問題嘛 好不好像委員報告 其實我們在中央災害應變中心雖然就是各部會的支援調度各縣市的相互支援的這個部分我們都是在 其實都有做相關的一個支援調度這就是人民現在生氣的地方 主委"},{"start":247.178,"end":270.186,"text":"來 我們用一個最簡單的颱風進來了 到了第五天總統到台南去 對不對災民要求的三件事情 災民要求什麼災民為什麼要求 就這三件事情很嚴重沒有做好嘛第一個 我的屋頂被風吹走啦"},{"start":271.894,"end":286.932,"text":"像我們在台北在其他縣市可能不能想像這個事情在南部就是很多三合院嘛那個屋頂真的就是封欸16級17級的封欸各位鄉親想說那個像房子整個都要被掀起來欸你知道嗎 類似那個龍捲風這樣子的欸連牆壁都吹倒了"},{"start":290.931,"end":308.837,"text":"就跟總統求救啊 大家想像一下就表示你第五天的時候你該救的那個房子損害的大家想想 很可憐耶你家裡面如果一天沒有電沒有水屋頂被吹走 你有辦法住嗎到第五天還要跟總統求救總統冷冷的回答說那屋頂我們要自己爬隔幾天真的有一個台南的民眾真的爬上去跌下來過世了 這天災嗎 這人後吧"},{"start":321.874,"end":346.84,"text":"所以你們現在怎麼敢有臉講說你們救災救得很快 或者救好呢我們現在捕破網嘛 我們要面對問題 想解決問題啊今天為什麼要開這個會第一個 屋頂的修繕 到現在嘉義跟台南有很多房子都沒修好你要去排隊 要排兩個月後才有料 才有工人這當然要國軍進去 也要工兵啊 有內政部的消防署的人員啊"},{"start":348.175,"end":376.404,"text":"國土計畫署要把這個相關的這個土木機師那些人全部公辦派下去啊你不搶修今天已經快一個月了餒今天還來得及我現在跟你講災情還是現在進行是因為你屋頂跟房子不修好你一下雨最近這一兩個禮拜問題出在哪邊舊的傷沒有處理好下個大雨家裡就進水嘛現在就可憐了第一個我跟你講房子要修的這個問題第二個國金本來就要去幫忙嘛"},{"start":377.543,"end":406.405,"text":"我相信歷年來大家回去看看每一次的這個風災地震 哪一次國軍沒有出現這一次國軍在7月7號救災晚之後7月8號就漢光演習現在人民在埋怨什麼救災如同作戰啊你在演習 救災跟演習兩個比較重要兩個都重要好不好那你把演習一部分變成是救災啊你在打仗的時候如果發生了天災你不用先救災嗎如果你要說是改變一個項目趕快去嘉義 趕快去台南救災"},{"start":409.076,"end":426.575,"text":"現在災情會延續到現在嗎結果搞成什麼連林國成跟我 我們都要帶我們的小草民眾 老人民眾自己去救災去送物資那時候政府在哪裡國經在哪裡第三個就今天要討論了通信的問題通信這個事情是多嚴重的事"},{"start":432.199,"end":451.13,"text":"那天啊總統去然後民眾就跟總統講說我這裡沒水沒電沒有網路我們一些比較年長的長輩或者年紀比較大的身體病痛也沒辦法聯絡通信要叫我們聯絡我們就沒網路要怎麼聯絡結果總統講了一個經典他去問問的問問的說郭國文可以郭國文是中華電信嘛"},{"start":461.892,"end":488.719,"text":"我跟你說 我也是中華電信啊我第二天白天 我一個星期到有東西電話就打不通啊這裡面有兩個大問題啊第一個中華電信通 抬高大勒 延傳勒第二個老實講 連中華電信都沒有全部通啦如果那個時刻 當人民跟總統求救了你們請前提趕快去幫忙那是不是應該可以更快那結果是什麼 我跟大家講"},{"start":490.206,"end":518.544,"text":"這個通信造成的傷害有多大台南有個民眾他一個婦人是被鐵門砸到通信不通你要打電話求救這個叫天天不停叫地地不一樣通信出不去所以你去幫忙一個多小時以後消防人員也快過來人就已經走了你說通信這嚴不嚴重"},{"start":520.128,"end":538.536,"text":"第二個,通訊這次延誤到多久?在丹納斯風災的第24天,台南還有很多地方還是斷訊的今天是更直接問一個,現在馬上要處理了現在還有很多事話都沒通"},{"start":540.578,"end":551.563,"text":"還有很多有線電視你知道嗎?嘉義跟台南現在很多人在外面有線電視已經快一個月不能看了主委你知道這個事情嗎?知道 嘉義大洋很嚴重 事件都會影響那一戶位啦市化也不通 那更嚴重有線電視很多時候一戶位都沒人看"},{"start":560.882,"end":576.196,"text":"我們的速度這麼慢嗎?救災的速度為什麼慢?他們也積極在搶救 但是相對的一些工班 大概人力都吃緊但是很抱歉 他們雖然已經在投入 但是速度我們希望可以再改進今天是在補破 恭喜老蔣一直在講 老蔣是心都疼的啦"},{"start":583.854,"end":607.206,"text":"我們本來如果照以前救災的標準作業程序SOP檢定指揮所趕快進去 災民跟你求救的時候所有的人力該進去幫忙修房子廢棄物要去清印的議帝到目前為止喔 自己的議帝垃圾還要兩個多月才清得掉 房子還要一直在清你清出來的 他說垃圾 兄弟說要考因為垃圾兩個月已經很慘了 他說每天垃圾沒有掃還在加"},{"start":609.724,"end":635.1,"text":"那怎麼去解決 主任現在是要集中所有的力量嘛你前進指揮所已經進去了該動員所有的力量不只要防止修好垃圾該清的要趕快去清包括通信我知道大家很賣力啦這次老蔣我是非常肯定基本台電價值老公要撂不去沒錢沒錢可是老蔣你現在在檢討通信這一塊你怎麼會搞到一個已經快一個月通信還沒有弄好"},{"start":637.56,"end":652.774,"text":"你們如果在打仗的時候碰到這事情怎麼辦你漸進的期間 你不是在講什麼任性的國防嗎我今天看你們的檢討報告NCC啊 都叫人家整個記錄起來 現在NCC在做什麼事情"},{"start":656.014,"end":678.26,"text":"避免類似的事情再發生 第二個趕快怎麼加速去解決這個問題就是檢討部分其實我們已經在啟動就是未來的加強基台的韌性的部分就是包括公有建築物的提供場所然後相關的電纜如果是光纜部分能盡可能地下化然後另外基台本身的"},{"start":679.06,"end":702.346,"text":"電力的部分的韌性要加強我們也跟相關部外來合作看未來能不能再提升它的一些蓄電的一些時間跟時間部分我先問蘇發部蘇發部你在去年的7月8號你發表一個重要的新聞所以你們要推動這個數位這個韌性對不對所以你在推動低軌的衛星通信"},{"start":703.493,"end":712.098,"text":"他說你們在今年底就是鼓捏2024年的鼓捏就可以達到24小時的這個涵蓋包括說去年4月份花蓮發生這個7.2級強震的時候"},{"start":715.356,"end":739.573,"text":"你們都有去救災啊那為什麼這次這個低軌衛星為什麼沒有發揮功能跟委員報告那個我們派出去的行動基地台車上面都是配備低軌衛星有三十台配備低軌衛星的車到災區的我知道我剛才聽你說嘛你說你補助一個十台三十台嘛對不對這邊派二百台已經都出來了嘛那顯然就是一定是兩個問題嘛一個量不夠所以你說要再增加嘛"},{"start":740.293,"end":755.954,"text":"一個是功能有問題嗎我先問個最簡單的問最簡單的你如果產生兩岸的緊張你就打起來了或者一個天災再來人民怎麼相信數位部數位發展不是很努力的去把這個事情做好你現在該做什麼事情質跟量"},{"start":758.208,"end":776.4,"text":"值跟量 量因為30台我已經派了28台那的確量28台是沒辦法補1256台的所以這個部分的確我們目前的量是不夠的所以現在你說每個業者在多補助"},{"start":778.052,"end":807.404,"text":"我們下半年會再多補助從現有的預算這還不包含救災預算從現有預算再補助再多擠出每個業者三台多九台然後我們會把剩下的行動基地台車先把他的衛星支架裝好因為衛星支架裝上去也是需要價錢那個低軌衛星我還看到一個重要新聞台哥大台哥大他們有宣布啊他們說他們已經成功運用現有的手機就不用經過基地台"},{"start":808.837,"end":822.567,"text":"他是經過限流手機直接接低軌的衛星進行這個簡訊的發送跟影音的通知已經成功驗證了太空基地台這個技術你們跟他們聯絡嗎那個是他有跟我們申請的實驗計畫"},{"start":824.738,"end":849.072,"text":"現在沒辦法推展是吧那個目前是實驗他還沒有申請商轉的執照那因為這個跟太空職業通訊在6G的規格裡面是有那包含我們高空氣球計畫都是針對6G的時候在做這個準備如果可以透過手機就盡快啦加速去推動我最後要做三個呼籲跟建議因為主席國城已經站起來了第一個NCC"},{"start":850.919,"end":877.198,"text":"NCC是兩個禮拜內請你完成盤點中華電信、台哥大、遠傳三家電信業者的行動基地台的數量這裡應該你手上就有對不對對第二個更重要的SOP要做出來完成天災任何天災發生的時候這些電信業者他的行動基地行動基地台這個台車啊包括他有衛星設備的這個他怎麼去投入災區的協助他有多少數量地點優先順序要先規劃出來好不好"},{"start":878.959,"end":897.268,"text":"好 你當然颱風來或天災來每個地方會不一樣可是你之前一定是有先應應過嘛對不對 也命過這個東西要很清楚的要出來這樣才能夠第一時間派遣到災區去協助解決問題另外在一個月內一個月內針對最近幾次天災對電信信號影響"},{"start":898.428,"end":913.638,"text":"方式範圍跟程度跟各家電競業者影響這個請你趕快制定一個相關的計畫好不好提出來怎麼去解決不要避免這個通信的這個孤島另外兩個月內兩個月內這個很重要你們已經有應變或者暫時應用的新科技這個數位這個對不對"},{"start":916.019,"end":930.902,"text":"盡快把它完成好不好社會發展部跟NCC趕快來做這件事情非常謝謝不要再發生天災可是不要再發生這一次啊慢半拍這個救災要不然的話天災就被人禍了謝謝這段時間大家的努力不過速度要加快一點我拜託講 最好拜託講"},{"start":932.043,"end":953.488,"text":"嘉義跟台南現在災情還是現在進行是因為舊的傷沒有癒合隨時又再下雨拜託 舊災速度要更快特別是房屋的修繕廢棄物跟垃圾的這個清運好不好通信要趕快是要完整的好不好國軍該有的人力所有各部位該有人力趕快下去拜託 謝謝 德祥好 謝謝張其楷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1045,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時24分）謝謝主席，請行政院災害防救辦公室的王主任。"],["主席：好，行政院災防辦王主任。"],["張委員啓楷：NCC代理主委。"],["主席：NCC陳代理主委。"],["張委員啓楷：數發部闕政次。"],["主席：數發部闕政次。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：我先請教王主任。"],["王主任怡文：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：今天你們很多官員來備詢，都說很多的問題是因為這次的災害範圍太大，對不對？"],["王主任怡文：是，它的……"],["張委員啓楷：就是因為災害範圍太大，所以第一時間就要成立前進指揮所啊！我在講的，颱風7月6日晚上11點40分從我的故鄉嘉義布袋這裡上來，這個災情有多大啊！臺南跟嘉義1萬8,000戶的房子屋頂被掀開，有些連牆壁都被吹垮了，1萬8,000戶耶！電線桿將近4,000支，三千多支裡面有一千七、一千八支是在嘉義。我去看了，那個不是吹倒，是硬生生折斷耶！那個災情有多嚴重。結果前進指揮所到了22號才成立，行政院發言人還可以在那邊硬拗！我在兩、三個禮拜前就一直在講，趕快成立前進指揮所，因為每次我回去嘉義送物資、救災的時候，就看到那個家裡都殘破不堪。災民已經跟總統要求了，說他們爬不上去房子、幫忙蓋帆布、國軍來幫忙、電信不通啊！人民是有請求的。","所以光是一個前進指揮所就看得出來，我覺得政府現在真的是對不起民眾，因為臺灣在救災上，不管是在經費方面、在標準作業程序上面是非常有經驗的。光是一個前進指揮所，你去看八八風災的時候，前進指揮所就在災區，那時候派下去的人是誰？內政部長廖了以。連美軍都來幫忙耶！美軍來幫忙要到哪邊報到？前進指揮所啊！這次不是很多其他縣市都到臺南跟嘉義去幫忙嗎？你中央部會、中央機關在災區連一個前進指揮所都沒有耶！這多離譜！天秤颱風的時候有沒有設前進指揮所？都有嘛！結果行政院，第一個，你連以前的救災標準程序都不做，你連災害有多嚴重都不去了解。第二個，以前怎麼救災都搞不清楚，後來出來硬拗說我們是第一次成立……7月7號凌晨開始有災情，到了22號，過15天了耶！慢半拍、慢15拍，你還敢說以前沒有……還說我有，這不是笑死人嗎？怎麼對得起我們的災民！這是第一個我們今天要先導正的。","所以剛才在說的，要補破網，主任回去你要建議，要跟行政院講清楚，我們希望以後不要有天災，可是有的話，第一時間，災區在哪邊，中央的力量要進去。為什麼要設前進指揮所？各個部會才知道找人啊！像我回去東石、我回去義竹，他說房子被掀開、通訊不通了，那我們不是幫忙打電話，你們最近都接到我的電話，對不對？透過立委或者是鄉鎮市還要去找部會，事情怎麼說得清楚？，你們要是有人駐在那邊，各個部會都在那裡，你們再主動去了解狀況、主動去解決問題，好不好？"],["王主任怡文：好，向委員報告，其實我們在中央災害應變中心，各部會的支援調度，各縣市相互支援的這個部分，我們其實都有做相關的支援調度。"],["張委員啓楷：這就是人民現在生氣的地方。主委，我們用一個最簡單的例子，颱風進來了，到了第5天，總統到臺南去，對不對？災民要求了三件事情，災民要求了什麼？災民為什麼要求？就是這三件事情很嚴重，沒有做好嘛！第一個，我的屋頂被風吹走了啊！像我們在臺北、在其他縣市可能不能想像這個事情，在南部就是很多三合院，那個屋頂真的就是這樣，16級、17級的風耶！嘉義鄉親是怎麼說？像房子整個都要被掀起來，你知道嗎？類似龍捲風這樣子，連牆壁都吹倒了，那就跟總統求救啊！大家想像一下，就表示第5天的時候，該救的、那個房子的損害，大家想一想，很可憐耶！你家裡面如果一天沒有電、沒有水、屋頂被吹走，你有辦法住嗎？到第5天還要跟總統求救，總統冷冷地回答說，那屋頂我們要自己爬。隔幾天有一個臺南的民眾真的爬上去，跌下來過世了，這是天災嗎？這是人禍吧！所以你們現在怎麼有臉講你們救災救得很快或者救得好呢？我們現在補破網嘛！我們要面對問題，想解決問題啊！今天為什麼要開這個會？第一個是屋頂的修繕，到現在嘉義跟臺南有很多房子都沒修好，要去排隊，排兩個月以後才有料、才有工人！這當然要國軍進去，有工兵啊，有內政部消防署的人員啊！國土計畫署要把相關的土木技師那些人……工班全部要派下去啊！你不搶修，今天已經快一個月了耶！"],["王主任怡文：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在跟你講，災情還是現在進行式，因為屋頂跟房子不修好，一下雨……"],["王主任怡文：對，這些……"],["張委員啓楷：最近這一、兩個禮拜問題出在哪邊？舊的傷沒有處理好，下個大雨，家裡又進水嘛！好可憐啊！"],["王主任怡文：現在……"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，第一個是房子要修的問題；第二個，國軍本來就要去幫忙嘛！大家可以去看看歷年來的每次風災、地震，哪次國軍沒有出現？這次國軍在7月7號救災完，7月8號就漢光演習，現在人民在埋怨什麼？救災如同作戰啊！你在演習！救災和演習哪個比較重要？兩個都重要好不好！那你把演習的一部分變成去救災啊！打仗的時候如果發生天災，你不用先救災嗎？如果那個時候就改變一個項目，趕快去嘉義、臺南救災，災情會延續到現在嗎？結果搞成什麼？連林國成跟我都要帶著我們的小草、我們民眾黨的民眾自己去救災、去送物資！那時候政府在哪裡？國軍在哪裡？","第三個就是今天要討論的通訊的問題。通訊是多嚴重的事！那天總統去，民眾跟總統講：我們這裡沒水、沒電、沒有網路，長輩或是年紀比較大的，身體有病痛也沒辦法聯絡；要我們聯絡，我們就沒網路，要怎麼聯絡？結果總統有一個經典的說法，他問了一下身邊的人，說「郭國文可以」。郭國文是用中華電信嘛！我跟你講，我也是用中華電信啊！第二個禮拜我在義竹，有時候電話、LINE就打不通啊！這裡面有兩個大問題，第一個，中華電信通，那台哥大呢？遠傳呢？而且老實講，連中華電信都沒有全部通啦！如果那個時刻，當人民跟總統求救了，你們傾全力趕快去幫忙，是不是會更快？結果是什麼？我跟你講這個通訊造成的傷害有多大，臺南有一個婦人被鐵門砸到，通訊不通，要打電話求救根本就是叫天天不應，叫地地不靈！通訊出不去！所有人去幫忙，一個多小時以後消防人員趕來，人就已經走了。你說通訊問題嚴不嚴重？第二個，這次通訊延誤了多久？到丹娜絲風災的第24天，臺南有很多地方還是斷訊的，嘉義也斷訊啊！我今天就更直接問一個現在、馬上、現在進行式要處理的，現在還有很多市話都沒通耶！還有很多有線電視，你知道嗎？嘉義和臺南現在很多人家裡的有線電視已經快一個月不能看了。主委知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：知道，嘉義大揚有線電視很嚴重，有四千多戶受影響。"],["張委員啓楷：快一個月了耶！市話也不通！更嚴重的是，有線電視繳那麼多錢，一個月都不能看！我們的速度這麼慢嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他們有……"],["張委員啓楷：救災的速度會這麼慢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他們有積極在搶修，但是相對的一些工班大概人力都吃緊。很抱歉，他們雖然已經在投入，但是速度我們希望可以再改進。"],["張委員啓楷：說實在的，今天是在補破網，一講心就疼了啦！本來如果照以前救災的標準作業程序（SOP），前進指揮所趕快進去，當災民跟你求救的時候，所有的人力就該進去幫忙修房子、清運廢棄物，到目前為止，嘉義義竹的垃圾還要兩個多月才清得掉，而且房子還一直在清，清出來的……鄉長說得都快哭了，因為垃圾要清兩個月已經很慘了，可是每天的垃圾非但沒有減少，還在增加，這要怎麼去解決？","主任！現在要集中所有的力量嘛！前進指揮所已經進去了……"],["王主任怡文：我們……"],["張委員啓楷：就該動員所有的力量，不只把房子修好，垃圾該清的要趕快去清，包括通訊。我知道大家很賣力，這次老實講，我是非常肯定台電真的了不起，沒日沒夜，可是現在檢討通訊這一塊，你怎麼會搞到已經快一個月，通訊還沒有弄好？欸！如果在打仗的時候碰到這種事情怎麼辦？戰爭的時候，你們不是一直在講韌性的國防嗎？我看你們的檢討報告，NCC叫人家要增加基地台，現在NCC在做什麼事情？如何避免類似的事情再發生？第二個，怎麼樣趕快加速去解決這個問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：檢討的部分其實我們已經在啟動了，就是未來加強基地台韌性的部分，包括公有建築物提供場所，然後相關的電纜，尤其是光纜的部分儘可能地下化，還有基地台本身電力部分的韌性要加強，我們也跟相關部會合作，看未來能不能再提升蓄電的時間。"],["張委員啓楷：我問一下數發部，數發部去年7月8號發布了一則重要的新聞，說你們要強化數位韌性，對不對？所以你們在推動低軌衛星通訊，預計去年底（2024年）就可以達到24小時的全天候涵蓋，包括去年花蓮發生7.2級強震的時候，你們都有去救災，那為什麼低軌衛星這次沒有發揮功能？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，我們派出去的行動基地台車上面都有配備低軌衛星，有30台配備低軌衛星的車，到災區的有28台。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道。剛剛有聽你說，你說你們每家業者補助10台，總共30台，現在已經派出去28台了嘛！"],["闕次長河鳴：對。"],["張委員啓楷：那顯然就是兩個問題，一個是量不夠，所以你說要再增加嘛！第二個是功能有問題嗎？我現在問一個……"],["闕次長河鳴：功能沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在問一個最簡單的，如果產生兩岸緊張，譬如說打起來了，或者是再來一個天災，人民怎麼相信數位發展部是很努力地去把這件事情做好？你們現在在做什麼事情？質跟量！質跟量！"],["闕次長河鳴：質跟量的部分，因為30台我已經派了28台，量的部分，28台的確是沒辦法補1,256台的，所以這個部分我們目前的量能的確是不夠的。"],["張委員啓楷：你說現在每個業者都補助？"],["闕次長河鳴：我們下半年會再增加補助，而且是從現有的預算，這還不包含救災的預算，從現有的預算，再多擠出每個業者3台，也就是多9台，然後我們會先把剩下的行動基地台車的衛星支架裝好，因為那個衛星支架裝上去也是需要加錢。"],["張委員啓楷：有關低軌衛星，我還看到一個重要新聞，去年12月的時候，台哥大有宣布說他們已經成功運用現有的手機，就是不用經過基地台，他們經過現有的手機，直接接低軌衛星，進行簡訊發送和語音通話，已經成功驗證太空基地台的技術，你們有跟他們聯絡嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：那是他們跟我們申請的實驗計畫。"],["張委員啓楷：已經成功了，現在沒辦法推展嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：那個目前是實驗，他們還沒有申請商轉的執照。因為和太空直接通訊在6G的規格裡面是有，包含我們的高空氣球計畫，都是針對6G在做相關的準備。"],["張委員啓楷：如果可以透過手機就儘快啦，請加速去推動。","我最後做三個呼籲跟建議，第一，請NCC在2個禮拜內完成盤點中華電信、台哥大、遠傳三家電信業者行動基地台的數量。這個資料你們手上應該就有，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個是更重要的，SOP要做出來，完成在任何天災發生的時候，各電信業者的行動基地台車，包括有衛星設備的部分，要怎麼投入災區協助之數量、地點、優先順序等等，這些要先規劃出來。好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["張委員啓楷：颱風或天災來襲時，當然每個地方都不一樣，可是你們之前一定要先演練過，這個東西要很清楚地出來，這樣才能在第一時間派遣到災區去協助解決問題。","另外，NCC應該在一個月內，針對最近幾次天災對電信訊號之影響方式、範圍、程度，及各家電信業者受災後的影響情況，趕快制訂並提出相關計畫，看怎麼去解決，避免「通訊孤島」的情況再次發生。","此外，數發部已經有一個「應變或戰時應用新興科技強化通訊網路數位韌性」計畫，請在兩個月內儘快把它完成。","請數位發展部和NCC趕快來做這些事情。好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["闕次長河鳴：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。希望不要再發生天災，可是也不要再發生類似這次慢半拍的救災，要不然天災就變人禍了！謝謝。也謝謝這段時間大家的努力，不過速度還是要加快一點。最後拜託一件事情，嘉義跟臺南的災情還是現在進行式，因為舊的傷沒有癒合，隨時又在下雨，所以拜託一下，救災速度要更快，特別是房屋的修繕以及廢棄物跟垃圾的清運，通信也要趕快處理，使其完整，好不好？國軍該有的人力、所有各部會該有的人力要趕快下去，拜託！謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","現在請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d5034dffd4bdeb496c6614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f574277e4527d10aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:17:24 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那我現在請那個NCC好不好請NCC沒有沒有主任請留步那個主委請問一下您是什麼時候知道說當地通訊全斷然後需要來做災害的協助的"},{"start":204.111,"end":232.33,"text":"其實第一時間就知道了那為什麼通訊可以到二三十天都一直沒有辦法恢復呢因為很多記憶台是它記憶台不好運作大概三個原因第一個記憶台本身被摧毀第二個記憶台本身沒電對 這個我們都聽很多啦我看了很多新聞都是NCC之前發的一些內宣的新聞都說NCC攜手什麼幾大電信公司哇 打造幾十部這個有越野功能的行動基地台哇 這種新聞我常常在看"},{"start":233.595,"end":249.35,"text":"那你們NCC這邊你們報告自己寫的喔3月28號就舉辦114年度的通訊傳播災害防救演練訓練這是你們講的嘛對不對對請問一下你這個演練在現在真正災害發生的時候有發揮作用嗎有啊其實這是有什麼樣的作用"},{"start":249.73,"end":269.435,"text":"就最簡單最簡單例子就是調派行動記憶台然後以後對可問題就是問題你說你做一大堆人家就是沒有通訊嘛然後你一直告訴大家說你打造了很多越野功能的行動記憶台但是當地就是沒有通訊嘛你有演練你有打造可是人家就是沒有通訊那問題出在哪裡"},{"start":270.595,"end":290.763,"text":"關鍵就是規模太大了因為規模太大所以不是你的問題不是所以你們都不曉得說現在極端氣候可能會遇到強降雨可能會那個風災雨災可能會比以前更大你們都沒有想到這一點所以你現在的演練是針對什麼時候幾十年前的氣候來演練嗎還是怎樣"},{"start":292.063,"end":318.687,"text":"我們是針對過往的經驗過往經驗嘛所以你們都沒有預測到極端氣候狀況你的演練是針對過往的那所以只要一旦遇到超出預期的風災雨災你就束手無策了不是束手無策是因為投入所有資源現在大家人民憤怒的地方就在這邊嘛第一個動作慢嘛第二就是我們都是針對過往啊我們不曉得這次這麼嚴重啊不能怪我們啊"},{"start":319.147,"end":344.657,"text":"沒有 月子其實第一時間就已經投入救災投入復原那就是不夠啊那就是不夠啊你有做五分跟你有做二十分跟有做六十分跟有做一百分就是不一樣如果說你現在還是用這種態度我相信之後我們還是會遇到一樣的問題你應該是先去了解問題嘛問題是出在哪裡然後你才能夠提出解決的方式嘛"},{"start":345.037,"end":352.731,"text":"有 我們會甚至檢討會加強業者的一些救災的一些能量怎麼增加是業者嗎 還是"},{"start":355.326,"end":380.503,"text":"業者跟政府機關其實都一樣因為你們之前發的新聞稿都是以你們為主體啊都是說NCC攜手電信公司推動啊在宣傳的時候你們就是主體然後現在遇到問題的時候我們會叫業者做感覺你又推到二線了NCC扛起責任好不好因為你看幾十天人家家裡面沒有通訊是多麼痛苦一件事情啊讓你一天沒有手機你受得了嗎人家幾十天都沒有手機欸沒有通訊欸"},{"start":381.663,"end":394.095,"text":"這個我們會持續來改善這部分那未來的這個負災的能量的一些增強增進我們這邊已經在持續跟相關部會來合作努力好 謝謝好 謝謝葉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":971,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時17分）請災防辦主任，謝謝。"],["主席：請災防辦王主任。"],["葉委員元之：主任好，你們災防辦是一個常設機構，對不對？"],["王主任怡文：是，我們災防辦是……"],["葉委員元之：有常駐人員，所以對於防災應該要更積極啦！我今天看到行政院卓榮泰院長去南部，然後他很高興的宣布，我們現在的前進指揮所要變成加速指揮所，因為完成了第一個就是屋頂復原，然後也受理了很多戶的申請，要去媒合一些營造廠，我想請問一下這個前進指揮所是什麼時候設立的？"],["王主任怡文：前進指揮所設立的一個……"],["葉委員元之：我們的風災是什麼時候？"],["王主任怡文：我們從7月6號……"],["葉委員元之：7月6號，請問一下前進指揮所什麼時候設立的？"],["王主任怡文：前進指揮所是在7月……呃，我找一下時間。"],["葉委員元之：7月30號，是嗎？"],["王主任怡文：30號，對。"],["葉委員元之：7月30號嘛！"],["王主任怡文：對。"],["葉委員元之：7月6號……"],["王主任怡文：它是重建的……"],["葉委員元之：那好，那災防的前進指揮所是什麼時候設立的？有嗎？有這個前進指揮所嗎？"],["王主任怡文：如果是應變……"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候設立的？"],["王主任怡文：應變的指揮其實在各地方政府……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我說前進指揮所。"],["王主任怡文：前進的……"],["葉委員元之：對，前進的，有沒有？沒有設立？"],["王主任怡文：呃，當時並沒有設立。"],["葉委員元之：欸！現在那個災害那麼嚴重，你們連前進指揮所都沒有設立，這個在我聽起來是非常匪夷所思欸！以前我們在地方政府服務的時候，那時候烏來也遇到颱風，那時候烏來山上幾乎快被滅村，那時候馬上就成立前進指揮所，在前進指揮所裡面有指揮官，指揮官可以立刻了解當地的需求，調度相關的資源來協助救災，結果我們現在連前進指揮所都沒有設立，然後等了二十幾天才設立復原的指揮所，那大家都在忙什麼？你們那時候7月5號、7月6號都在忙什麼，連前進指揮所都沒有設立？"],["王主任怡文：跟委員報告，因為這一次颱風如各位所知道的，它是非常特殊的一個颱風，在房屋損毀的部分事實上是各區都有。所以前進指揮所設立，比如臺南，是在很多個區進行……"],["葉委員元之：好，那我再請問一下……"],["王主任怡文：都有區級的……"],["葉委員元之：所以你們災防辦有沒有在第一時間就掌握災情狀況，有沒有？"],["王主任怡文：我們對於災害，在中央災害應變中心每天早上9點都有……"],["葉委員元之：你們立刻都有了解到所有的災情，跟當地的需求，都有了解？"],["王主任怡文：是。"],["葉委員元之：都有了解、都有掌握？那我現在請NCC，好不好？主任，請你留步。","主委，請問一下，您是什麼時候知道當地通訊全斷，需要災害協助？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實第一時間就知道。"],["葉委員元之：第一時間就知道了，為什麼通訊可以到二、三十天都一直沒有辦法恢復呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為很多基地台它……基地台沒有運作大概有三個原因，第一個，基地台本身被摧壞；第二個，基地台本身沒電。"],["葉委員元之：主委，這個我們都聽很多了，我看了很多新聞都是NCC之前發的一些內宣的新聞，都說NCC攜手什麼幾大電信公司，打造幾十部有越野功能的行動基地台，這種新聞我常常在看。NCC這邊，你們報告中自己寫的，3月28號就舉辦114年度通訊傳播災害防救演練訓練，這是你們講的，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，我們……"],["葉委員元之：請問一下你這個演練，在現在真正災害發生的時候有發揮作用嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有啊！其實……"],["葉委員元之：有怎麼樣的作用？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：最簡單的例子就是調派行動基地台，然後……"],["葉委員元之：問題是你說你做了一大堆，人家就是沒有通訊嘛！然後你一直告訴大家說，你打造了很多有越野功能的行動基地台，但當地就是沒有通訊。你有演練、你有打造，可是人家就是沒有通訊，那問題出在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：關鍵就是這次規模太大了，我們的業者……"],["葉委員元之：是因為規模太大，所以不是你的問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，是受災幅員太大。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們都不曉得現在極端氣候可能會遇到強降雨，風災、雨災可能會比以前更大，你們都沒有想到這一點？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，但是……"],["葉委員元之：所以你現在的演練是針對什麼時候、幾十年前的氣候來演練嗎？還是怎樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們是針對過往的經驗，就是憑……"],["葉委員元之：就是過往的經驗嘛！你們都沒有預測到極端氣候狀況，演練是針對過往的，所以一旦遇到超出預期的風災、雨災，你就束手無策了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是束手無策……"],["葉委員元之：對啊！現在……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是業者投入所有的資源，結果還是這樣子。"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，主委，現在人民憤怒的地方就在這邊，第一個，動作慢；第二就是說：我們都是針對過往、我們不曉得這次這麼嚴重，不能怪我們啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，業者其實第一時間就已經投入救災、投入復原。"],["葉委員元之：那就是不夠啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對啊！但是他們資源都投入了。"],["葉委員元之：那就是不夠啊！你有做5分跟你有做20分，跟有做60分、100分就是不一樣。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：如果你現在還是用這種態度，我相信之後我們還是會遇到一樣的問題。你應該先去了解問題，看問題是出在哪裡，然後你才能夠提出解決的方式。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，我們會深自檢討，也會加強業者救災的一些能量。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼增加？是業者嗎？還是……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：業者跟政府機關其實都要。"],["葉委員元之：因為你們之前發的新聞稿，都是以你們為主體，都是說NCC攜手電信公司推動啊！在宣傳的時候你們就是主體，然後現在遇到問題的時候說：我們會叫業者做。感覺你又退到二線了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，所以……"],["葉委員元之：NCC扛起責任，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會，我們會扛起責任。"],["葉委員元之：因為你看幾十天了，人家的家裡面沒有通訊是多麼痛苦的一件事情。讓你一天沒有手機，你受得了嗎？人家幾十天都沒有手機的通訊耶！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會持續改善這部分，未來復災能量的一些增強、增進，我們這邊已經在持續跟相關部會來合作努力。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","現在請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"16846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16846","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b73ade72829c64ed8fc999d94c20378f90a0be61fea148186b3d2f3de1678a21021eb8c2d9aef29b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院台灣民眾黨黨團，有鑑於美國川普政府自今（114）年4月2日公布將陸續對各貿易國課徵對等關稅以來，我國經貿辦談判團隊與美方已歷經二輪實體會談後，政府對談判內容仍語焉不詳，無論談判進程、爭點與風險評估，國人與國會均一無所知，僅能獲得「會談坦誠且融洽」、「取得建設性進展」等毫無實質內容的空泛回應。依據「條約締結法」第3條第1項第4款及第5款，臺美關稅談判內容涉及國防、外交、財政或經濟上利益等國家重要事項，且「涉及人民權利義務」、「涉及財政、經濟上利益」或「與國內法不一致」要件等，應被視為條約，須依法進行國會審議，儘管談判成果尚未定案，行政機關亦應比照「條約締結法」第6條，充分向國會及人民說明談判原則與可能爭議，而非以「適時說明」草草帶過，以獨裁心態「黑箱作業」規避監督，扼殺公眾討論與人民的知情權，更使攸關國內產業投資方向與長久經濟影響之關稅協議欠缺制度性保障機制，將國會視為極權體制下的橡皮圖章。爰建請院會作成決議：「邀請行政院院長率同相關部會首長就『臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估』於1個月內進行專案報告並備質詢。」是否有當？請公決案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-04","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-04T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-04T10:55:00+08:00","duration":8670,"影片長度":"02:24:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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自行車他們現在第一個接不到訂單第一個接到訂單也不敢接單"},{"start":2106.638,"end":2135.135,"text":"一片哀嚎最重要原因是因為拖延太久了一方面比黑箱更黑箱的狀況第二個我們的政策一直搖擺不定像歐盟為什麼急著去接受15%他們清楚地講他們不希望一直在動盪的狀況要讓它早一點穩定下來那依照台灣民眾黨跟國民黨的智庫一起做的這個整個平台的這個評估業者最擔心的也是政策的不確定性"},{"start":2136.397,"end":2157.817,"text":"不確定性 雖然這段時間不是有黑箱的問題對很多的業者跟地方政府來講 他們碰到最大的問題就是不確定性就是歐盟為什麼急著要把它定下來因為我們要讓整個他們全部的成員跟產業都是知道的而且讓不確定性不要再拖延下去可是我們現在發現 因為政府到目前為止還一直在講說要繼續談判 而且不對外公開"},{"start":2162.071,"end":2183.22,"text":"神秘兮兮的一直在蓋牌的狀況下這對整個產業的發展對政府的因應對全民的安定非常的不利特別現在不是只有剛講的20%的關稅比競爭對手還要高我們還有費力台幣升值的問題現在後續各個國家都有附帶的條件可是條件目前還是空白的"},{"start":2184.628,"end":2209.833,"text":"日本一開始要4000億的這個投資川普大筆一揮變成5500億本來兩邊分享利潤各一半現在變成是美國是90%另外賴總統到現在講說有所謂保密協定這幾天引起非常多的討論包括以前擔任過民進黨行政院副院長的蘇晉吉都出來講說請讓我們幫忙好不好"},{"start":2210.573,"end":2225.257,"text":"讓各界了解狀況讓各界的聲音跟專家學者還有立法院的全民的力量進去讓我們共同來幫忙讓我們共同來解決問題好不好剛剛講的一方面到底要投資多少錢我們到底要採購多少錢除了我們目前知道的像阿拉斯加採購這個天然氣還要去做基礎這個建設之外"},{"start":2233.959,"end":2247.331,"text":"有太多的採購目前都是完全被蒙在鼓裡的之前傳出來說國防的採購竟然要高達9000億可是政府到現在都不印證天然採購到底要做哪些基礎建設多少錢也不跟我們講"},{"start":2249.223,"end":2260.772,"text":"目前連勞工都已經上街頭抗議了 農民也上街頭了他們要求說你早一點讓我們真相不能夠一再犧牲我們可是目前都沒有真相所以台灣民眾黨明確的要求我們在盡快的時間邀請"},{"start":2264.235,"end":2285.372,"text":"行政院院長卓榮泰到立法院來一方面把整個談判的過程的內容詳細跟國人共同來交代我們讓全民都一方面知道真相更重要的提出最妥善的因應措施讓全民讓立法院共同來參與 謝謝好 謝謝提案黨團代表的說明那接下來不曉得哪一位黨團要先說好 羅委員來請"},{"start":2290.359,"end":2314.374,"text":"我必須沉重的說真的是國難當頭國難當頭所以非常贊同民眾黨提出來這個請我們卓榮泰立刻來專案報告跟國人來說清楚講明白我在政府單位服務過我為什麼說是非常嚴重國難當頭我告訴各位"},{"start":2315.695,"end":2340.595,"text":"現在民進黨宣稱這叫暫時性關稅20%高過日本跟韓國可是你知道國際的談判講的是你來我往我們已經做了四大讓步包括台積電投資赴美設廠包括賴總統也承諾要大幅提高國防預算"},{"start":2341.687,"end":2358.615,"text":"包括要到阿拉斯加來去投資採購長期的天然氣包括我們台幣大幅升值我們已經做了四大讓步結果得到的是暫時性關稅民進黨所謂的暫時性關稅20%比日本韓國甚至比泰國都高"},{"start":2367.541,"end":2380.79,"text":"現在我們的民進黨政府一直告訴大家安心安心這只是暫時性你做了四大讓步還拿到20%的暫時性關稅我不知道如果你要拿到跟日本跟韓國一樣的15%我們的政府還要再做多少的讓步我們的產業我們的農民我們的各行各業現在真的是叫苦連天啊"},{"start":2393.024,"end":2411.093,"text":"所以要拜託我們的卓榮泰院長還有我們的民進黨政府真的把皮繃緊一點把心好好的收回來過去這段時間真的我必須說我們的整個執政團隊我沒有看到把心思放在國政上面心都不知道飛到哪裡去了像這樣一個分心的政府你如何應應國內的天災跟國際的關稅重大的風暴"},{"start":2421.701,"end":2422.775,"text":"真的非常沉重啊"},{"start":2424.042,"end":2450.333,"text":"所以請我們的官員們心思收回來真的心思馬上收回來全心全力的投入今天這一場國際關稅風暴的備戰所以我支持我們民眾黨提出來請卓榮泰在最短的時間內向國人清楚的報告為什麼做四大讓步得到的暫時性關稅仍然高達20%勝於日本跟韓國"},{"start":2453.914,"end":2480.41,"text":"那請問還要再做十大讓步才能夠拿到日本韓國的百分之十五嗎請您說清楚講明白謝謝好那個謝謝羅志強委員再請民進黨黨團代表發言以前我先補充介紹道黨的委員徐曉信委員以及鄭天才委員接下來是請民主進步黨黨團的代表是哪一位要發言吳思堯委員"},{"start":2481.186,"end":2502.018,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝各黨的代表首先本黨先講結論要求行政部門到立法院針對關稅的談判這些過程或是後續的執行政策的配套來做報告黨團當然是民進黨當然是支持那事實上依據我們的條約締結法任何的在談判final"},{"start":2506.954,"end":2522.733,"text":"所有要締結跟國際的協議必然經過國會所有的內容也都要經過國會的討論批准核可所以說這個東西當然他在談判的出爐之後的全公開"},{"start":2523.793,"end":2543.044,"text":"這個我們都有過去的經驗國會也都相當的熟人所以要來報告該來報告那我想行政部門也會做好準備該公開的所有的內容就循過去國會已經進行的各項的締約的經驗跟程序來進行這個都沒有問題"},{"start":2544.105,"end":2553.251,"text":"那我要進一步的來闡述一下我想全社會都在關心產業關心國人關心朝野關心如同這個志強委員說的他把它定義為說這是國難那我認為就是國家現在要克服的在一起努力的這個過程當中我們希望朝野大家都團結在共同支持我們還在努力當中的談判團隊"},{"start":2570.843,"end":2583.95,"text":"的这个立场我希望朝野大家是坚定的齐心的团结的那在这个部分为什么我倒不认为除非除非在野党的委员认为现在20%就够了就要接受了"},{"start":2587.569,"end":2615.698,"text":"否則我們都應當支持台灣跟美方之間還能夠繼續談還有方案繼續談的這個當下我們都該支持我們的行政部門談判團隊為國家為產業去爭取更好的一個稅率除非在黨的委員認為28可以接受否則我們就要支持在可談判的方向之下絕對要為我們爭取更好的一個成果那台灣的狀況"},{"start":2618.726,"end":2637.03,"text":"確實因為我們的出口七成是ICT產業那我們對美是六大逆差的大國那我們九成以上也是ICT相關產業在逆差的部分所以說台灣的談判跟其他國家特別不同的是我們跟半導體產業232條款是一起談一起面對的所以每一個國家的談判狀況產業的生態"},{"start":2643.792,"end":2649.057,"text":"的這個體質是不同的我們不太能夠一概而論別人怎麼樣台灣為什麼不是這樣反而我們認為我們的跟232條款一起來談判的過程它相對更複雜但我們也更有可以談"},{"start":2658.866,"end":2670.212,"text":"的契機跟籌碼在手上我希望在議黨的委員不要把它定位成繼續談就是讓步我們應當把它聚焦為繼續能夠談判我們支持國家繼續來爭取最後講到這個公開的問題今天的整個提案裡頭民進黨團我們剛剛已經講結論我們支持該報告就報告"},{"start":2681.218,"end":2684.982,"text":"後續所有的依現在的條約締結法就是需要公開但是呢對於提案內容裡頭所闡述的部分提到獨裁政府黑箱談判這種字眼我想這一次的台美不是台美美國跟各國"},{"start":2698.615,"end":2725.467,"text":"80多個國家的談判都是一樣的方式都是一樣的進程都是一樣的談判的這個國際的常規不要把自己的政府我們適用於國際的談判的原則規範把台灣自己的政府說成是獨裁跟黑箱如果這樣成立的話那麼是在指控另外100多個國家也都是獨裁政府嗎"},{"start":2726.367,"end":2744.29,"text":"是在指控美國這些談判跟每一個國家都是黑箱作業嗎這個是比照跟國際談判的ABC經驗法則慣例常規所以我們希望大家不用擔心後續所有該公開的"},{"start":2746.172,"end":2773.61,"text":"國會絕對是把關的最後一關該公開的協議所有的項目包括未來談定之後終局談判定案之後對於過程的很多討論國會必然可以監督所以請不要用這樣的字眼我認為我們的團隊還在前線努力大家真的是給團隊加油這是為自己的國家加油再一次說我們支持行政團隊爭取更好"},{"start":2775.511,"end":2799.159,"text":"的稅率那給他們必要的空間因為談判就是兩造雙方就是台灣以及美國之間可操之在我的部分我們全面要發揮最好的一個條件的進行談判不可操之在我的部分我想國會也應當都能夠來站在支持團談判團隊的立場上去克服這些困難謝謝"},{"start":2805.039,"end":2818.246,"text":"謝謝三位黨團的代表第一輪的發言開啟第二輪的發言以前我們先請因為連執政黨的黨團都表示說他們"},{"start":2819.506,"end":2848.02,"text":"所有的協議本來都是要經過國會然後條約締結法的規定要遵守等等至於說各個黨團在背景的資訊上面所謂的不同陳述也就是說目前台灣經過的狀況是不是跟其他各國一樣為什麼在台灣說有保密協定了以後泰國馬上就公布了他們的19%是怎麼談出來的讓了哪10個項目清楚的做了說明"},{"start":2849.241,"end":2876.332,"text":"那日本的首相也在國會進行了報告那韓國跟我們當初在2013年服貿仿效的條約締結法他們在國會裡面所進行的程序跟目前在台灣國會所進行的程序是不是真的都一樣我相信台灣是一個資訊非常公開的社會所有的人現在都可以透過公開的查詢得到客觀的資訊我也沒有必要"},{"start":2877.012,"end":2888.877,"text":"在這邊再多說什麼但現在比較重要的是行政院的立場那等一下是不是先請行政院的代表可以上來就"},{"start":2891.348,"end":2915.534,"text":"今天所提出來的議案就說明補充一下背景的資訊因為我現在手上所拿的是美國川普總統在2025年7月31號所簽署的行政命令這份行政命令講得非常的清楚就是從他簽署行政命令的七天以後"},{"start":2916.534,"end":2940.309,"text":"那他在這個行政命令上面所宣布的關稅將會正式的生效那以美國的時間來講就是美東時間8月7日凌晨零點開始那以台灣的時間來講會是8月7日中午的12點如果我等一下有理解錯誤的話那也歡迎我們行政團隊的進一步來加以指教"},{"start":2941.129,"end":2968.205,"text":"那為什麼要提這個背景的資訊這個背景的資訊涉及到說如果各個黨團都贊成如果各個黨團都贊成要盡速的請行政院長來進行報告的話那接下來就會牽涉到兩個部分一個部分是時間的問題因為8月7號中午12點是台北大概禮拜四的時候那所以是不是這個禮拜五這個禮拜五"},{"start":2970.406,"end":2992.337,"text":"行政院可以來進行專案報告這個禮拜五行政院來進行專案報告可能等一下預備請黨團的代表們第二輪發言的時候再做表示順便聽一下行政院的意見因為這麼重大的事情如果只進行一天的報告可能實際上面"},{"start":2993.97,"end":3001.251,"text":"關心的委員非常的多是不是可以容納所有關心的委員還是說這個禮拜五下個禮拜二"},{"start":3002.546,"end":3023.773,"text":"我們五二一次會嘛禮拜五跟禮拜二讓行政院長報告完了以後從這個禮拜五到下個禮拜二可以排兩天這個各個黨團等一下都可以表示意見我們也都尊重不過請行政團隊先說明的事情是說第一個因為賴清德總統不斷的說這是一個暫時性的所以8月7號"},{"start":3031.994,"end":3054.712,"text":"在行政命令他有簽署會生效的日期以前那這20%是不是會停下來可能我們到8月8號你們做報告的時候事態會很明朗因為全體國人也都很關心總統所謂的暫時性關稅到底是暫時多久的一段期間那第二個部分總統也說明過說"},{"start":3057.794,"end":3083.354,"text":"我們跟美方已經簽了保密的協定等一下也順便說明一下這個保密的協定什麼時候簽的簽的主體是誰保密的範圍是什麼那這個協定為什麼沒有按照條約締結法相關的規定送到立法院裡面來即使你認為性質上面是屬於行政協定的話那也應該要送到立法院來被查"},{"start":3084.455,"end":3096.265,"text":"這個是第三個部分那現在行政院這邊請問是請哪一位來當作代表?是副秘書長嗎?還是副總談判代表?是請副總談判代表是不是?好,我們來請副總談判代表請上被選談"},{"start":3118.97,"end":3141.679,"text":"主席以及在場各位好我簡單補充一下關於剛剛我們主席特別提示要說明的背景資料我想8月1號這個白宮美東時間7月31號那發布了行政命令那按照這個行政命令呢他更新在"},{"start":3143.047,"end":3158.358,"text":"這個相關的稅率在8月7號凌晨12點01分起會開始生效所以呢在這個行政命令上面所記載的就是所有這個7月31號的新的"},{"start":3160.479,"end":3180.019,"text":"行政命令的稅率会在8月7号凌晨12点01分开始试用这个新的税率那台湾在这个行政命令上面的税率标示的是20%的税率那不过呢它的行政命令上面有提到"},{"start":3181.175,"end":3206.125,"text":"有一些國家跟美國可能接近要完成協議的階段所以當跟美國完成協議的情況之下這個稅率會再進行調整所以就台灣來說我們已經向美方表示我們持續想要跟美方就對等關稅以及其他的232有關的議題進行討論"},{"start":3209.406,"end":3228.611,"text":"美國也回覆他有意願跟台灣繼續進行這樣的一個討論所以我們會持續的就這個議題就我們的稅率對等關稅的稅率跟美國持續討論然後希望要爭取對台灣更合理更好的這個對等稅率第二個呢也補充說明一下我們"},{"start":3237.048,"end":3259.024,"text":"所了解的是,美國跟各國在對等關稅的談判,依美國的要求,與各國談判在達成協定共識前,都必須簽有保密協議,以避免不必要的紛擾。所以這個協議的目的是在保護跟處理相關資訊以及文件的交換。"},{"start":3260.578,"end":3271.768,"text":"那也是要求對手國不能將談判文件分享給其他沒有經過授權的人士也不涉及談判實質議題"},{"start":3274.422,"end":3301.213,"text":"過去台灣跟美國進行談判也都是依照這個慣例在進行即使其他國家的談判台灣過去曾經談過新加坡、紐西蘭的台新、台紐FTA我們即便沒有簽保密協議的情況之下台灣也是在這個談判過程當中被對手國要求必須要嚴守保密的承諾"},{"start":3302.659,"end":3325.117,"text":"那我們回過頭來台美之間的這個保密協議是由我國的駐美代表處以及AIT所簽署這一個要求呢基本上是這個保密協定要求依照國際慣例要求談判的過程"},{"start":3327.031,"end":3346.023,"text":"基本上希望要依據我們的國際慣例來執行這些保密的要求那這一個保密協定呢我們依據條約締結法第十二條處理因為涉及到有外交的顧慮所以沒有送立法院查照"},{"start":3347.625,"end":3368.602,"text":"那至於這個保密的範圍他要求所有談判過程當中相關的提案等資訊只能提供雙方指派的代表議題主管機關官員等人不得將資訊分享給未經授權的人那這一次"},{"start":3369.409,"end":3393.549,"text":"對等關稅的談判各國都是依照國際慣例來進行談判也都沒有公佈他們的保密協定所以目前台美談判我們仍然在進行當中所以未來如果談判完成之後我們的談判結果一定會依據條約締結法相關規定送立法院審議以上說明"},{"start":3396.028,"end":3418.038,"text":"對不起喔 那個你前面有做一些背景說明非常感謝你的背景說明那你的背景說明各個黨團的代表是不是接受 是不是正確那個我們以後再說但現在比較關鍵的是站在行政院的立場如果是這個禮拜五跟下禮拜二就來立法院說明行政院的立場如何是不是可以一併表明"},{"start":3421.404,"end":3446.966,"text":"陳如我剛剛提到我們的談判仍然在進行當中那目前我們人來依據保密協議跟美國之間在這些談判都在動態的發展所以如果過早去發布實質內容跟談判實質內容有關的議題的話恐怕會對於我們接下來的談判會達成一些不必要的一些困擾"},{"start":3448.676,"end":3471.663,"text":"對不起所以你們認為是因為還在進行所以不方便來立法院做報告是這樣的意思嗎我們會建議如果我們可以談到確定底定的一個結果的話那什麼時候會有確定底定的結果預期就好行政院以你們談判代表團隊因為我們目前跟時間在賽跑嘛剛在回答第一個問題的時候你說"},{"start":3473.308,"end":3479.716,"text":"川普的行政命令說8月7號生效但之前如果願意談那可以趕快談"},{"start":3480.834,"end":3503.62,"text":"那我現在有一點搞不清楚狀況所以如果要阻止8月7號生效的這件事情顯然在8月7號以前要有談的內容出來嘛或者是跟美方協議好台灣不在8月7號生效的範圍當中那否則的話8月7號台北的時間中午12點就會生效了"},{"start":3504.48,"end":3523.14,"text":"那到底有沒有辦法有新的一個談判的結果來阻止或者是變更這個8月7號生效的結果應該這個禮拜四中午我們大家就會知道那第二個事情是說那如果在8月7號中午12點以前沒有一個協議的話那"},{"start":3526.007,"end":3550.428,"text":"我不曉得除非川普總統去變更他行政命令的內容那否則的話這個就會生效那生效大家關心的就是對台灣產業所造成的衝擊跟影響以及行政院的因應那連這個部分行政院也不能談嗎這個是第二個問題還是說目前行政院的立場是說那8月7號生效歸生效"},{"start":3551.516,"end":3572.646,"text":"那但是我們還在談所以未來在一個不確定的期間當中這個期間有可能長有可能短因為我們會隨時繼續談那因為會隨時繼續談所以不斷的處於保密階段那所以呢就一直不能夠來立法院進行報告行政院的立場是這樣嗎?對不起因為你剛剛副總談判代表"},{"start":3573.406,"end":3587.733,"text":"所講的內容我做會議主席在主持的時候我完全聽不懂所以是不是可以請您進一步的闡釋讓各個黨團的代表可以聽得更明確一點那以利我們接下來議事的進行謝謝不好意思我請教你問題請你回答跟針對主席的問題我想就是要請"},{"start":3601.843,"end":3619.374,"text":"院長到立法院做專案報告應該可能有兩個層面一個層面是國內的因應第二個層面是屬於談判的部分那我在這邊也只能就談判的部分來跟您回報那我想就談判的這個進度呢確實我們在"},{"start":3620.78,"end":3635.177,"text":"現在所看到的川普的7月31號的行政命令有提到8月7號開始會是我們現在所取得的20%的關稅開始實施但是在此之前當然都可以持續談"},{"start":3636.218,"end":3653.312,"text":"但是他會不會在8月7號以前再去針對像這樣子繼續談的國家但是如果還是沒有辦法完成他會不會再去做一個新的公佈這個東西確實是我們現在沒有辦法掌握的因為川普總統確實如同像他對墨西哥"},{"start":3653.792,"end":3669,"text":"他就在7月31號以前又將墨西哥跟美國的談判又公布延長了90天所以就是說就這個美國本身自己的節奏談判節奏的一個掌握這個大概都是取決他們的決定"},{"start":3672.482,"end":3688.855,"text":"所以現在行政院的立場還是希望說,縱使8月7號台北的時間12點應該會發生效力那行政院因為還要繼續談,所以還是不希望到立法院來報告,立場是這樣嗎?因為我聽不太懂啦來,請說明"},{"start":3693.462,"end":3713.386,"text":"我想我們就是針對8月7號這個稅率因為他不確定是一個是不是台灣會取得的最終稅率因為我們還持續在談判當中美方也有善意的回應願意持續跟我們談所以呢我們會建議最好可以在談判大致都抵定"},{"start":3713.946,"end":3724.42,"text":"甚至是草簽之後這個雙方的條件都確定下來了共識都確定下來了我們再就談判的結果來跟立院來做報告"},{"start":3726.5,"end":3748.437,"text":"那個是不是符合各個黨團的立場跟期待我們想等一下各個黨團可以表達他們的看法那是不是符合國人的期待我相信台灣社會的公民社會很成熟大家都可以有看法那不過先提供因為立法院的這邊的議事處針對我們議事的潛力有做一些準備我也先跟各個黨團的代表來進行報告"},{"start":3750.859,"end":3771.008,"text":"我國跟紐西蘭簽署台紐經濟合作協定是在102年7月10號雙方簽署前也就是102年的7月8號經濟部、外交部等機關都先到立法院向當時的立法院院長王金平以及各個黨團代表進行報告"},{"start":3772.25,"end":3788.895,"text":"第二個部分102年11月7號我國跟新加坡簽署全屬台新經濟夥伴協定在雙方簽署前經濟部跟外交部也先向本院說明該協定的內容在要以及洽簽的進度"},{"start":3791.997,"end":3809.467,"text":"當時的立法院院長王金平也表示這個已經充分的表現行政部門對立法院所代表民意的尊重也有助於行政與立法部門溝通與協調這個是針對本院的議事處針對議事前例的部分跟大家進行報告"},{"start":3810.808,"end":3833.414,"text":"那我們現在開放各個黨團第二輪意見的發表因為三個黨團雖然都表示那個副總代表您請回座不好意思 謝謝三個黨團雖然對於請行政院來報告都表示一個基本上肯定認同的看法不過我們的行政院似乎說他們還要談"},{"start":3836.074,"end":3858.024,"text":"談完以前不要來報告但是至於剛剛本席所追尋的要談到什麼時候其實也不知道8月7號以前沒有談出來8月7號生肖是不是也不願意來報告我也聽不出來我已經多次給行政院的代表表達意見的機會了但不管怎麼樣"},{"start":3859.404,"end":3886.998,"text":"邀請行政院院長來本院進行報告這個是本院的職權那各個黨團我們還是可以做成我們自己的決定那依照憲法相關的規定行政院這邊有配合辦理的醫護那我們在這個之前也充分的讓行政院的代表表達了他們的立場跟看法那接下來不曉得哪個黨團的代表要再先發言"},{"start":3888.098,"end":3902.623,"text":"因為我們第一輪發言的順序是台灣民眾黨、中國國民黨以及民主進步黨那我們第二輪是不是就先讓中國國民黨的代表先發言那請問是哪一個委員要代表來請徐曉清委員"},{"start":3906.468,"end":3916.913,"text":"謝謝主席我想是這樣子人活一生呢也是暫時的這個要一天兩天還是100歲100年都是一樣是暫時所以大家很疑惑的是說怎麼會有一個關稅叫做暫時性關稅而且呢講到這個暫時性關稅的時候暫時性要講特別大聲就好像是呢你用講話也要用螢光筆把它圈出來一樣這是第一個讓大家覺得非常不解的事情"},{"start":3933.22,"end":3957.492,"text":"但實際上面8月7號就要開始收錢了嘛關稅就要開始收了嘛那所以如果說它是暫時性的那請問要暫時多久這個是大家第一個問題第二個是那如果它只是暫時性的所以它要保密的話但它對產業的衝擊已經開始了所以我要請問的是那所謂的暫時性它到底有沒有要簽署呢"},{"start":3958.172,"end":3974.741,"text":"如果這個暫時性沒有要簽署的話那他又憑什麼已經開始對大家進行實施呢那如果說這個內容是保密協定我們有一組保密協定的內容裡面是談了某一些東西然後我們要做一些取捨所以才談出了20%那抱歉在你簽署之前這一些的保密內容他不得實施啊"},{"start":3982.369,"end":3985.231,"text":"不然我們怎麼知道是什麼內容呢對於所有的產業額外的造成什麼衝擊我們在完全一概不知的情況之下那你憑什麼去實施你憑什麼去實施因為按照條約締結法你簽署12條嘛簽署後30天你要周知到立法院的黨團嘛那到底簽署了沒簽署後那你才開始說做實施那你現在是一個非常空白授權的一個狀況"},{"start":4008.371,"end":4023.199,"text":"就是呢8月7號要開始收開始影響我國的各個產業可是他又是保密的但他的內容又已經要開始實施了那這不是一個循環性的一個閉鎖的黑箱嗎所以我要講的第三點是"},{"start":4024.64,"end":4040.83,"text":"我們可以看到今天最新的美國貿易代表格里爾他在一段3號播出的電視訪談裡面說川普新公佈的關稅稅率基本上已經確定外界不應該期待這些稅率在短期內還在調降"},{"start":4042.791,"end":4062.082,"text":"他說他認為未來幾天不會有所變化現在是8月4號到8月7號也不過就是未來幾天也就是說如果在8月7號之前政府沒有把握能夠談出新的稅率新的內容然後解除所謂的保密能夠跟民眾做說明的話那請問今天這個保密是要保到哪裡去"},{"start":4066.874,"end":4073.496,"text":"印尼泰國南韓日本他們哪一個國家沒有在現在的關稅制度之下已經被談出來之後還繼續要跟美國談的都有啊日本也有持續在談啊那為什麼他們首相可以公開的跟民眾去做說明為什麼泰國能夠公開的去跟民眾說明難道他們就沒有繼續談嗎所以我希望還是必須要公開這些所謂的內容如果真的有要用機密的形式的話那我們也可以接受"},{"start":4096.843,"end":4111.963,"text":"但是絕對不能說到現在8月7號已經要收了但是呢要對產業進行影響了可是我們什麼都沒有做 以上好 謝謝中國國民黨黨團的代表薛曉欣徐若元的發言那請 接下來民主政府黨蔡議員"},{"start":4115.165,"end":4130.75,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位我們與會的立委同伴我想今天這一個台美談判事實上很多的一些時間的訂定以及程序的主導權事實上是在美國"},{"start":4131.79,"end":4155.323,"text":"所以我們台灣我們行政團隊在跟美國談判的時候事實上很多遊戲規則是美國定的包括他要求我們在談判的結論還沒有出來前必須要牽手保密的協定所以目前這個20%那我們因為我們還沒有達到最終的協定那是川普片面的在8月1號說如果還沒有"},{"start":4155.983,"end":4162.747,"text":"達成最終談判結論的那就是台灣就是定在20%這樣的一個數字那當然我們站在保護國內產業的一個立場我們認為20%還不足以讓國內的產業未來是有更有競爭性所以我們希望繼續談那再繼續談的話"},{"start":4175.194,"end":4191.691,"text":"這一個保密協定當然繼續發揮它的繼續有它的一個拘束力除非我們可以跟美國要求說好那我如果你公布20%那我們是不是這個保密協定就暫時不要生效我們要把之前的談判的內容來做一個揭露"},{"start":4192.712,"end":4201.118,"text":"這個可能也是需要美方的同意因為保密協定是雙邊簽署的簽署的保密協定所以我就講如果是以我們的契約締結法當然第六條有說就這個條約草案的前面可以做談判的方針原則或是可能的爭議事項向立法院說明所以我們也很同意說我們來邀請行政院長然後針對"},{"start":4220.831,"end":4245.916,"text":"這個談判的進程、方針、原則以及衝擊來做專案報告民進黨同意但是我們要知道方針、原則跟爭議事項很多會被保密協定扣住所以我們現在叫行政院長來事實上他還是一樣會被保密協定給扣住很多事情他沒有辦法在我們馬上邀請他的時候他就把一些應該保密的事項講出來這個也不符合國際的一個談判所以應該"},{"start":4251.211,"end":4265.757,"text":"適當要求行政院長來說就是說我們跟美國已經談到了有一個初步的雙邊的共識而且我們跟美國說好那我們是不是要就這一個部分我們就已經可以適度的跟國人來揭露"},{"start":4266.943,"end":4276.573,"text":"那美方也同意說好 當然還沒有簽署協定那至於剛剛主席有去講到說 過去的檯面有協定啦一些我們一些國際地約在簽約前必須經過立法院的一個審議而且甚至也有跟當時的王金平院長然後來做一個報告 他整個談判的一個過程對 那是在簽約前"},{"start":4291.332,"end":4295.394,"text":"簽約前所以我覺得這個時序以及這個事實上我們從過去的一些文獻的報導都可以知道他的時序是怎樣時序是怎樣所以目前大概就是說還在談根本還沒有進入協議的一個完成那我們舉了日本日本在協議完成前也是眾說飛雲我看到很多日本的"},{"start":4313.404,"end":4316.325,"text":"專家學者也在批判日本在協商的過程到底他們犧牲了國內哪一些的產業開放了哪一些產業變成零稅率還是稅率降低這件事情很多人也在批判很多日本的學者也有在批判日本的政府但是他們一樣要遵守保密協定"},{"start":4335.19,"end":4345.633,"text":"我認為說除非大家國人認為20%已經夠所以已經到時候談判結束但是我們覺得這樣還不夠那我們事實上也要知道一個國際的一個事實過去韓國是我們的一個競爭對手韓國跟美國在過去是簽了FTA就是自由貿易協定"},{"start":4356.155,"end":4378.58,"text":"所以台灣過去的產業很辛苦我們在面對跟韓國的競爭的時候因為他們有自由貿易協定所以我們都是面對著韓國跟美國他們說2007年簽了自由貿易協定生效後三年內95%的雙邊的工藝品跟消費品的交易十年內要達到零關稅"},{"start":4380.2,"end":4382.423,"text":"所以韓國跟美國過去是零關稅95%是零關稅所以台灣過去我們就是跟韓國我們就是面對這樣的劣勢情況之下台灣的廠商一樣是非常的打拼所以我們現在外國有20%都說要降幾%"},{"start":4397.944,"end":4402.689,"text":"就是縮短了我們跟韓國未來的一個在國際競爭在對美國的一個貿易的時候的差距而且這個自由貿易協定也並不是只有韓國美國所簽的自由貿易國家有在亞太包括澳洲包括新加坡在中美也有很多國家他們有自由貿易協定這個都是台灣"},{"start":4420.77,"end":4435.375,"text":"過去在面對競爭的時候我們的一個硬傷我們沒有跟美國有辦法去簽這個自由貿易協定所以當時我們不管是桃美貿易協定或者是我們在BTA的努力都是一步想要替國人爭取最好的競爭條件"},{"start":4436.815,"end":4447.523,"text":"那現在一樣在這個對等關稅之下到底這個對等關稅跟所謂232條款甚至跟所謂301條款它未來是競合的關係還是疊加的關係這個也都在談判的內容所以我覺得要說的東西很多但是行政團隊怎麼可能他們不會站在保護國內產業然後跟美國爭取最大的利益呢不可能是這樣做的"},{"start":4465.427,"end":4489.752,"text":"所以我們當然希望行政院長來跟我們報告包括我們自己在野黨我們自己民進黨在野黨大家都一樣想要知道到底哪一些談判內容我站在農業縣的立委我也知道到底現在農業面對未來的衝擊是怎樣我也很想知道但是我們知道現在就是正在談判中在談判的時候我們只能信任談判的一個團隊讓他們放心"},{"start":4493.613,"end":4509.439,"text":"國人支持他讓他們去去台灣爭取最大的關稅的優勢回來這個是我們必須授權給他們而且信任他們當他們取得了跟美國的共識之後立法院邀請來請他們做報告請他們說如果有開放的哪些"},{"start":4515.647,"end":4532.505,"text":"那對國內產業的衝擊要怎麼辦我們都覺得我們立法院要趕快再提出因應措施這個我是我們每一個立法委員都應該做的但是在此時此刻既然他們還在談判而且這個談判還沒有完成而且美國有要求我們要做保密協議的情況之下我們應該放手讓他們去談好 謝謝"},{"start":4537.018,"end":4559.789,"text":"好,謝謝民進黨黨團的代表蔡玉瑜、蔡委員剛剛蔡委員也說了一方面依照條例締結法第六條也贊成行政院來報告但另外一方面又擔心我們有簽所謂的保密協議所以行政院院長來報告是不是會去違反所謂的保密協議"},{"start":4561.25,"end":4576.963,"text":"那當然在法律上面 條約締結法的規定跟所謂的保密協定兩者之間的位階適用上面 競合上面處理衝突的時候應該要拿一個為先我想台灣是法治國家不能找到"},{"start":4577.924,"end":4597.057,"text":"答案主席這部分的衝擊那個不好意思現在主席正在發言我現在並沒有請你發言第12條請你把麥克風關掉主席可以看一下第12條有有有他剛剛已經說明了所以我現在要再問一次行政部門的立場是不是就保密協定本身"},{"start":4598.118,"end":4623.372,"text":"到底有哪些事項是保密的對誰保密什麼事項保密這件事情立法院也不能夠知道因為這個保密協定本身也是保密的那個行政部門的代表等一下再回覆各個黨團的問題的時候因為我一方面在整理各個黨團的立場另外一方面我再聚焦從各個黨團不同的立場當中核心的爭點等一下請行政部門一併來加以說明"},{"start":4624.392,"end":4631.218,"text":"那第二輪我們還有第三個黨團的代表還沒有講台灣民眾黨黨團是請陳昭志委員來請陳昭志委員剛剛大家就是尤其執政的立委好像就一副美國片面的公佈這個結果但是這個說法並不能證實其實我們我方的代表是不知情的那這個遠在公佈之前像鄰近國家尤其是日本早就找朝野來協商啊"},{"start":4653.456,"end":4655.638,"text":"這個既然是國家全體的事情啊為什麼就是只有這個執政黨行政院自己在作業呢我們從4月7號見到行政院院長一直到今天到今天院長之前說大家安心睡覺那個文定於立委說我們是第一波談判的非常驕傲的結果幾個月了四個月來到今天都是還是一個"},{"start":4677.76,"end":4682.284,"text":"大黑箱啊那本來我非常重視一點剛剛這個副代表也稍微點了一下這個保密協定內容是什麼我們國內自己的衝擊影響評估難道是保密嗎你跟美國簽訂是保密但我們自己呢我們沒有權利知道嗎你要改變產業改變勞工的命運影響他們工作生存權"},{"start":4699.739,"end":4705.884,"text":"那你要到什麼時候呢?你沒有衝擊報告,你要他們都家破人亡,你要他們都失業了,全部產業界倒閉了,才是你覺得是適當的這個時機嗎?那剛剛,當然我也一直說這個要受到這個條約地解法的這個國會監督,所以我想問,那到什麼時間點?什麼時間點是國會監督的條件呢?"},{"start":4722.719,"end":4725.102,"text":"8月7號就要生效了什麼時間點呢什麼時間點是這個你的生效時間呢所以第一個我們要求儘快那這個儘快大家都知道啦8月7號就要生效啦那還有儘快什麼就是這兩三天啊這個時候不來報告什麼時候來報告呢"},{"start":4740.819,"end":4744.102,"text":"所以這個報告內容我覺得我個人非常在意的非常重要的就是說影響衝擊評估這不可能是保密啦國內你自己有自己的版本你當初就要設定幾個版本啦假設我們談到這個程度國內影響是什麼這個程度影響是什麼這個完全到今天完全黑箱我們都不知道審查4100億叫我們遮著眼叫我們蒙著耳朵"},{"start":4765.979,"end":4768.123,"text":"然後叫我們去審查2700字要了4100億你這個時候就對我們保佑要求我們這樣蒙著眼這個來審查通過你們預算然後我們三奴通過還到處罵 到處抹黑是這樣做法的嗎"},{"start":4779.195,"end":4781.778,"text":"當年不要忘記你們反服貿反服貿有100場的說明會超過10場的公聽會最後還是被指控黑箱所以基本上我們就是要求立刻讓受到影響的全面影響這次不只是服務業產業勞工有權利知道而且時間迫在眉睫這是我們的要求"},{"start":4800.973,"end":4812.584,"text":"好 謝謝 那個各個黨團的代表現在已經完成了第二輪的發言那現在行政機關有要先回應嗎那個行政院的副秘書長你也要先回應嗎"},{"start":4817.679,"end":4839.641,"text":"你沒有要回應是不是好,那我們現在進行所謂第三輪的發言我們現在反正大家合個人而治也兩輪了啦那到底要不要保密協議本身可不可以再保密跟條約締結法的關係是什麼如果在8月7號生效那因為還在談"},{"start":4841.328,"end":4863.937,"text":"那還要再談多久那什麼時候才算是談完是不是接下來還要談三個月那三個月也不會來報告還要再談半年半年也不會來報告因為大家總是要有個時間的time frame這樣才知道國會到底要怎麼參與怎麼介入那否則的話那你們一直說雖然生效了但我們還在談"},{"start":4865.137,"end":4885.262,"text":"那還在談會談多久也不知道那但是總而言之在我們談出任何結果以前生效歸生效那我們就是沒有要來報告行政院的立場到底是什麼我相信大概國會啦多數的國人還是期待要說清楚講明白這件事情非常的重要"},{"start":4886.261,"end":4906.547,"text":"第二個部分就是說其他就實質的部分各個黨團有自己的政治立場跟說明包括是不是黑箱跟當初的主張事前事中的參與是不是一致這個各黨團都可以去開記者會各自大鳴大放"},{"start":4907.487,"end":4924.853,"text":"但是對於作為這一次的協商我想接下來我們是不是就聚焦一點請各黨團表達立場說第一個如果我們這個禮拜五跟下個禮拜二邀請行政院長來報告當然行政院長他自己去拿捏"},{"start":4926.453,"end":4951.18,"text":"所謂的保密協定哪些可以講哪些不能講那因為我們也不曉得保密協定的內容所以大概基本上就是行政院院長說了算他說什麼是保密就是保密那但是如果內容通通不能講最起碼還有衝擊影響跟準備是什麼總該跟國人報告還是說因為還沒談定我也不曉得衝擊是什麼"},{"start":4952.04,"end":4971.854,"text":"所以我也無法評估因此也沒有辦法做什麼準備那行政院的立場是不是這樣也一併跟全體的國人做說明所以我可能拜託各個黨團的代表就政治上面大家各自有各自的立場這個我們都理解那我們接下來是不是可以比較聚焦一點第一個"},{"start":4974.415,"end":4987.585,"text":"針對這個禮拜五跟下禮拜二邀請行政院院長來進行專案報告大家是不是同意第二個如果大家都同意的話那我們各個黨團希望各派"},{"start":4988.766,"end":5015.069,"text":"多少代表因為大概按照以前的議事成立每個人是15分鐘嘛但這個議題重大我相信希望能夠代表黨團那個上去發言的委員人數相對而言也會比較多那因此在這樣子的情況之下那各個黨團各自先發表一下看法希望這一次黨團代表的人數大概要界定在什麼地方"},{"start":5015.729,"end":5038.74,"text":"因為如果是禮拜五跟禮拜二請行政院長來專案報告的話我們當然就希望時間充分的利用時間充分的利用在這個時間可以容納的範圍之內盡可能讓多一點委員都有上去反映民意表達心聲的一個機會那我們第三輪的發言按照"},{"start":5040.281,"end":5048.356,"text":"順序的話剛剛第二輪先發言的是中國國民黨所以我們現在第三輪先發言的我們就先請民主進步黨黨團的代表來請吳思堯吳委員"},{"start":5054.525,"end":5076.363,"text":"謝謝主席 我的手大概舉了五分鐘沒有看過朝野協商都是主席一個人在講話甚至把朝野協商當作質詢一樣只有主席有權利可以把官員Cue上去像質詢一樣這個程序上我覺得還是要彼此尊重彼此尊重是重要的 提醒一下主席"},{"start":5077.386,"end":5094.768,"text":"那有幾個訊息我們還是要澄清跟說明在野黨的委員一直在說泰國跟日本為什麼可以公開他們是談定了之後就可以公開大家放心我們談定了以後所有的"},{"start":5096.21,"end":5124.055,"text":"條件、過程、協議都會公開大家不用擔心不要以他們是談定之後才公開而台灣目前還沒有談定所以目前沒有辦法公開用這個時間差來造成社會訊息的一個混淆第二個我們的立場希望國家的國人朝野政黨都是一致的在談得快跟談得好之間我們希望"},{"start":5125.171,"end":5151.782,"text":"能夠談得好只要有更好的條件台美雙方願意繼續談這就是一個讓國家隊持續再去爭取更好的條件如果能夠談得快 plus 談得好我也舉雙手雙腳都贊成全台灣產業國人社會都贊成但是現在就以"},{"start":5152.912,"end":5180.795,"text":"剛剛主席所說手上所拿的這個白宮公佈的行政命令的文件如果想讀就可以看得非常清楚以這份白宮公佈的行政命令的文件的附錄一很清楚的提示出部分國家就包括台灣是接近談判完成或是還未完成協議的國家放在附錄一的這個附件台灣就是在當中"},{"start":5181.495,"end":5208.664,"text":"所以這證明我們的團隊在談得快跟談得好當中我們持續往談得好的那個方向去努力我手上可以以這一屆國會大家更有經驗的剛剛那個主席所提的是台紐跟台新的FTA的這個談判的過程這一屆國會可能更熟悉的是應該是說上一屆大家印象深刻可能那時候"},{"start":5210.144,"end":5233.4,"text":"在場我是那一屆的立委那易宇也在我們可以看看台美21世紀的貿易協定很清楚的是2023年6月1號簽署協定但是因為談的過程有一些方向都明確了等於是相對是明確而且談定了所以行政部門呢也在2023年6月1號簽署協定前就陸續的在2023年的3月16號"},{"start":5240.044,"end":5267.027,"text":"優先來公佈首批協定的重要內容在2023年5月19號也優先的公佈完整的中英文的文本他連文本都公佈所以這個前提公佈資訊的前提是你談定與否的這件事而現在我們跟美國的關稅就是持續的在進行中再次強調我們應當支持國家談判團隊往更好的條件去爭取"},{"start":5268.246,"end":5292.449,"text":"所以呢,在野黨的委員很急切的想要現在公開、公開、公開想要現在看到內容、看到內容、看到內容或者是現在要求來公開所謂的保密協定我也特別去查了現在跟美國談判的這一百多個國家哪一個國家就保密協定的簽署的部分有公開"},{"start":5293.61,"end":5308.52,"text":"目前是沒有任何一個國家被公開但是我認為行政團隊當然也可以去跟美方問一下啦因為其他國家可能沒有該國的國會有這種要求那也可以因為這個保密協定就是雙方兩照嘛"},{"start":5309.381,"end":5337.102,"text":"去溝通一下保密協定該不該公開這個我個人覺得世界各國沒有啦台灣的國會就要求有這件事情是有點奇怪啦但是如果這個是兩照嘛兩照都同意的話好啊那保密協定要公開或許這個也是一個可以的方向但是呢如果因為在野黨的委員要求現在去公開這個大家都沒有公開的保密協定而造成後續的談判生變"},{"start":5340.256,"end":5354.643,"text":"造成美方有一些不悅或是影響了談判的內容跟進程那責任誰負啊國會負得起嗎在要求公開這個保密協定那要不要在野各黨我們來簽一個免責協定"},{"start":5357.598,"end":5380.619,"text":"責任歸屬的協定我們要共同嚴肅的面對現在就還在進行沒有人會去犧牲國家的利益沒有人會去犧牲產業的利益作為執政黨更有這樣子努力做到更好條件的責任跟使命啊這是現在執政團隊正在做的事情啊"},{"start":5381.5,"end":5408.152,"text":"所以呢要公開要公開要公開這件事情我們已經清楚的說明一旦談定內容該公開的所有事項都會公開沒有談定之前要求片面國會的要求台灣片面公開沒有經過兩造的同意就公開這可能引發的談判的負面的效果誰要承擔"},{"start":5409.659,"end":5437.84,"text":"最後一個回應主席一直在cue大家好禮拜五來啦就是禮拜五來禮拜五禮拜五跟下禮拜二一次院會直接就來排定行政院長就來然後各黨就幾位如果說8月7號以前談的定朝野確實可以就行政院長來報告的時間我們來議定他但現在就還在談沒有人知道啊要不然黃國昌主席打個電話給川普問一下好了"},{"start":5439.534,"end":5454.519,"text":"你去問一下台灣是不是8月7號以前可以談定可操之在我的我們全力以赴不可操之在我的在美方一直在這裡為難我們的行政團隊你背後背後都要來不管有說好沒說好都要來"},{"start":5457.864,"end":5487.046,"text":"然後就要求委員就是去質詢要求這個細節你都要講這對於繼續談判中是非常不利的大家放心大家放一百個心一萬個心談定之後該來的行政團隊都會面對就如同我第一次的發言執政黨的立場是一樣的國會的監督在談定之後"},{"start":5487.726,"end":5507.761,"text":"還不是簽署喔 是談定之後 方向明確之後即便是在簽署之前 就像台美21項世紀倡議一樣就應當來國會 該報告就報告該公開的文件 都公開拜託大家 作為自己國家的啦啦隊這個當下 一再的在做這些"},{"start":5514.502,"end":5538.5,"text":"我不知道該怎麼講,我心在講這個實在蠻沉痛的國會所有的文件最後批准跟審查都在國會現在給我們自己的談判團隊施以壓力你認為這樣對我們的談判團隊國人沒有支持,朝野沒有支持在前線談判的人,選手還在場上"},{"start":5539.591,"end":5562.482,"text":"我們就為自己的選手國家隊誠心誠意的團結支持加油有這麼困難嗎所以說該來的都會來該要面對的都會面對但是在不該公開的這個時間點之前強行要求公開就是對於我們的談判團隊給予壓力也不利於我們後續跟美方持續的談判我最後也要拜託"},{"start":5563.622,"end":5577.171,"text":"這個主席,我們是草野協商草野協商不是叫國安起來,你自己一個主席可以來,這樣質詢草野協商不這樣啦,好嗎這個程序上還是要請主席要注意一下"},{"start":5580.381,"end":5606.723,"text":"謝謝民進黨黨團代表的發言所以民進黨黨團基本上是不贊成禮拜五的跟下禮拜二來嗎不要用這種話術對不起因為我沒有聽到答案答案就是談定之後該來就來如果禮拜五要不要來如果談定那誰能知道禮拜五有沒有談定所以嘛你哪就要跟川普告訴你可以談定了嗎我現在就要民進黨一個清楚的立場"},{"start":5608.584,"end":5628.352,"text":"沒有人知道什麼時候談定啊所以民進黨的立場是談定以後再來那如果接下來一個月沒談定那也不用來兩個月沒談定也不用來三個月沒談定也不用來這就回到我剛剛講的你是要國家談得好還是談得快當然談得好啊 但問題是8月7號就要生效了啊因為我們給執政團隊談判的團隊一個最好的目標我們過去幾個月都支持執政團隊去談啊"},{"start":5635.655,"end":5648.738,"text":"一定要面對的那8月7號會生效吧不一定不一定嘛好那沒關係我們到8月7號以後我們到8月7號以後就知道會生效還是不會生效嘛對吧是是是這個我都了解之前10%這一段也是美國片面宣布就生效一樣的狀況你們各自有立場各自去開記者會我都沒意見今天我只要知道針對這一個會議"},{"start":5665.182,"end":5670.584,"text":"針對這個協商婚姻會不會有結論那我希望大家各個黨團就表達立場這個禮拜五跟下個禮拜二民進黨黨團是不贊成嘛我沒有說錯吧我們在具體講談定之後就馬上朝野協商來要求訂定行政院長來報告的時間"},{"start":5687.27,"end":5701.661,"text":"只要一旦談定之後我們可以第一時間一個小時內公佈一個小時內我們趕快交給協商然後來安排行政院團隊來報告的時間這沒有問題這沒有問題市長主席現在壓的時間就還沒有成立先停一下因為我剛剛已經給民進黨黨團我不是在質問他們啦希望他們表達立場我才好做結論嘛那接下來我們按照順序是請那個"},{"start":5715.859,"end":5737.655,"text":"應該是民眾黨要先了嘛對吧那我們接下來請民眾黨黨壇的代表民眾黨很明確的表示我們希望這個禮拜五跟下個禮拜二請總統太太做專案報告至於那個人數啊以前都是331或662或者18 17跟3因為非常的重大所以我建議人數就是"},{"start":5739.116,"end":5765.705,"text":"國民黨18民進黨17台灣民眾黨3位時間人數都清楚講了那我要明確非常嚴正的呼籲民進黨不要離人民那麼遠你先問問人民人民跟產業現在一定很急著要行政院長跟賴政府把真相趕快跟大家講現在是對產業跟企業是一個要不要觀察或者以後怎麼去因應對勞工再講"},{"start":5768.766,"end":5786.676,"text":"來講已經有5%的企業已經在裁員了這是他們產業跟勞工跟人民的生死存亡我希望民進黨不要離人民那麼遠不要擋禮拜五跟禮拜二的專報至於到底有沒有簽多嚴重的保密協定"},{"start":5791.84,"end":5818.411,"text":"全世界的主要的國家日本他的首相很早就邀請了朝野一起來討論共商南韓甚至是帶著三大企業一起去談判你看這是他們裡面得到一個最有力的是什麼讓美國的造船再度偉大他們不只是三星電子現代汽車一起去他們的韓華的造船一起去他們爭取到最有力的一個條件讓他們的"},{"start":5821.562,"end":5840.673,"text":"關稅降到15%這不就是現在在野黨跟很多產業一直在講的連我剛特別提醒了連當過民進黨行政院副院長的施進啟都站出來講請讓我們幫忙好不好讓全民一起來參與不要一直黑箱作業更何況"},{"start":5844.919,"end":5851.044,"text":"8月7號中午就要生效了這是鐵錚錚的事實啊你想你現在在擋那8月7號生效的時候之前你做了什麼準備你用安心稅把我們下行了現在川普又片面的公佈了行政命令之後這個比例20%又比南韓跟日本我們主要競爭對手又高更嚴重的我們現在正在談的是後面不只是把關稅降下來我們有哪些附帶的這個條件"},{"start":5871.721,"end":5875.124,"text":"全台灣絕大部分人都不知道 連郭志輝都不知道經濟部長說他沒有被派去當代表 完全不了解狀況他本來跟我們講 我們會比南韓 會比日本好結果呢 現在是不是應該趕快把黑箱打開至於民進黨一直在推脫 說行政院人來他們保密的協定講出來嗎"},{"start":5897.745,"end":5924.237,"text":"現在民眾要的是什麼你們可以參考一下嘛民眾黨跟國民黨我們都已經開過記者會把初級的衝擊評估告報都已經提出來了你也可以參考昨天中部七縣市縣市長的這個平台人家提出的要求公佈真相還有做哪些的因應從新竹市做哪些因應台中市做哪些因應每個縣市都有耶"},{"start":5925.222,"end":5948.638,"text":"你可以參考台灣民眾黨跟國民黨的也可以參考中部七線市的為什麼到現在不把黑箱打開呢請不要離人民那麼近那麼遠趕快跟人民靠近好不好之前那個不去救災已經被罵半死了你在針對這個高官稅的這個衝擊人民都清楚跟你講答案了所以請民進黨跟人民靠近趕快同意"},{"start":5950.075,"end":5957.18,"text":"這個禮拜五跟禮拜二趕快做報告一方面把整個談判的重要內容你至少講嘛為什麼是20%啊第一個是現在很多人民在問的啊你的附帶條件是什麼這個至少跟人民講吧那目前有衝擊你到底要怎麼去幫產業幫勞工幫企業你不是該做嗎請不要再離人民那麼遠請趕快跟人民站在一起謝謝"},{"start":5973.909,"end":5995.664,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝台灣民眾黨黨團的代表張綺蘿、張偉源那張偉源明確的代表台灣民眾黨表達立場第一個支持這個禮拜五、下個禮拜二來請行政院院長來進行報告那同時呢,對於各個黨團依照席次的比例那質詢也有一些初步的建議那我們最後,最後請中國國民黨黨團請問是"},{"start":5998.106,"end":5999.527,"text":"首先我想跟吳世耀委員說"},{"start":6025.086,"end":6049.984,"text":"我們在提案裡面民眾黨提案裡面講得很清楚是針對台美關稅談判的進程方針原則跟產業可能遭受衝擊影響評估請行政院長拜託懇求拜託行政院長來報告產業哀嚎都在受苦誰說這個提案裡面哪一個說要公佈保密協定"},{"start":6051.633,"end":6070.103,"text":"不要偷換概念啦 真的今天大家誠心在這個地方在誠心在這個地方我們討論是這個提案討論這個提案討論這個提案他不是這樣講討論很簡單他講的是保密協定到底的效力跟隨條例締結的效力誰優誰厚第二個我要說抱歉啦剛舉的例子 台新台紐的這個經濟協議"},{"start":6080.646,"end":6091.427,"text":"我在總統府也參與過幕僚作業啦我先講第一件事情關稅的結果沒有什麼暫時性這件事啦"},{"start":6092.917,"end":6100.399,"text":"經濟協議也好經濟結果也好關稅結果做出來就產業衝擊的開始8月7號就開始了哪有什麼暫時性沒有暫時性所有貿易談判本來就連續性的但是當有一個變動產生的時候它就是一個確定的結果難道針對這個確定的結果行政院院長沒有義務或者沒有同理心"},{"start":6122.441,"end":6125.967,"text":"來立法院做一個最快速最有效最及時的報告嗎第三個我要告訴大家事實上你也可以看到今天"},{"start":6134.838,"end":6153.464,"text":"比方我舉個例子川普就已經公佈20%的關稅這是個確定的關稅結果對產業就造成確定的衝擊我們就需要行政院長針對產業的衝擊做出明確的說明報告跟因應的方式這是萬分急迫的事情8月7號就確定了捏就要生效實行了捏你今天如果說你跟我講沒有我們後面還有談判"},{"start":6165.643,"end":6188.364,"text":"我跟各位講我也能夠理解跟諒解你今天後面談判有很多跟美方要所謂的協議的保密的事項但是今天針對現在已經確定的結果談判的結果協議公佈就是關稅公佈的結果你行政院長就有報告的義務啊將心比心啊"},{"start":6191.741,"end":6203.087,"text":"如果角色異位今天民進黨你也會出同樣的要求嘛你難道不需要政府對人民做出產業的因應的報告要求嗎難道不需要嗎第四個我要跟各位講今天其實為什麼會遇到這種狀況坦白講是前所未有啦這一點我可以理解我們的副總談判代表越從來沒有會佔先祥的潛力啊"},{"start":6222.605,"end":6225.848,"text":"台灣過去的貿易談判沒有位在先祥的潛力啊就民進黨執政出現啦我剛剛前面講的是四大讓步囉這四大讓步都不是秘密喔都是我們賴清德、卓榮泰或民進黨公開承諾公開宣布公開宣示的四大讓步喔還有實際在進行的四大讓步喔阿拉斯加天然氣"},{"start":6250.776,"end":6254.697,"text":"台積電建廠赴美投資然後匯率升值然後你可以看到國防預算提高這是我們已經所有國民看到了你已經做了四大讓步了為什麼會有這個史無前例被單面直接跟你講說我就是要20%因為沒有人在談判桌上是未談先讓的"},{"start":6280.285,"end":6293.93,"text":"沒有人在談判桌上是未談先讓的你到談判桌你把籌碼全部讓進的時候他給你20%我就才為什麼要問嘛你可以不打沒關係但我們還是要代替人民問你未談先讓的四個讓步四大讓步之後你現在得到的是20%的關稅你跟我講暫時性然後民進黨扣一個難道你不希望我們20%往下降嗎"},{"start":6309.949,"end":6329.558,"text":"這不是讓步耶 難道不希望20%往下降嗎我當然希望20%往下降啊但我對今天民進黨政府的談判能力我非常非常的懷疑啊非常非常的懷疑啊哪一個政府不是今天把所有的籌碼然後談判之後跟美國談所以呢 日本韓國談出15%我們政府不是耶先讓再說 讓完再談那你都已經讓了 我還跟你談什麼"},{"start":6340.06,"end":6364.985,"text":"那接下來談什麼就20%給你嘛最後一個我要說啊沒有暫時性這件事啦你去跟產業講暫時性啦他給你暫時性什麼照民進黨過去的慣例你的暫時性變成拖持藉口的時候這暫時性可以一年兩年十年二十年都可以暫時性啊如果關稅二十年都是20%不用二十年啦一年都是20%"},{"start":6367.401,"end":6371.104,"text":"那是不是今天這整個行政院這一年都不需要來報告產業衝擊啊不是啊就不需要報告產業衝擊我們院長還有32%還找我們去協商過咧他都比你們有同理心還敢提院長32%第二天馬上找朝野政黨進去開始協商報告習近平的做法對不對 還 何建平在那邊鬧場那一次 何建平還鬧場"},{"start":6396.172,"end":6399.474,"text":"所以你還跟我講說還要提到卓院長嗎所以在這邊真的拜託民進黨8月7日 不然這樣子副總談判會上台講你公開承諾8月7日之前這結果會改變我就在這邊公開反對我們民眾黨8月8日要報告的提案我公開反對啊你副總談判會上台講8月7日我保證會有新的關稅結果出來產業不會受衝擊零 衝擊零"},{"start":6426.294,"end":6431.604,"text":"你講完我們就不用報告了嘛可能嗎 猛著心問一下要不要對岔 吳思瑤"},{"start":6435.149,"end":6441.073,"text":"對啊 當然啊 因為你也不敢啊不要不要不要 待會兒你們講話不是 你剛剛就講嘛 你剛剛講8月7號還沒到嘛你自己講8月7號還沒到 一切都還有變化關稅可能不一樣 你講的啊所以你是用這個藉口阻擋卓榮泰的報告嘛剛剛國參院院長問了你多少次 國參院主席問了你多少次"},{"start":6462.794,"end":6487.495,"text":"沒關係 謝國昌主席啦 我口誤我承認我口誤我承認 好不好我道歉 可以了嗎國昌主席問了什麼事情我跟柯院長道歉我跟柯院長道歉柯建民我對不起你 院長封號封給別人了沒有 韓院長 韓院長無所謂因為柯建民比較想當院長韓國 韓院長無所謂的柯建民比較想當院長沒關係 回來他剛剛問你多少次啊"},{"start":6492.639,"end":6500.465,"text":"你就是不肯回答 你不是回答一句8月7號還沒到嗎不是關稅還有變動的可能性啊對啊 那請副總統台灣人代表給我們一點希望嘛上來跟大家保證嘛8月7號之前一定會改變啊那他上來我就馬上表態啊 我就反對啊 可以啊"},{"start":6518.24,"end":6524.474,"text":"不是 他上來表態說七一號就能保證可以有不同的關稅結果我當然就反對報告 我相信"},{"start":6525.486,"end":6528.608,"text":"國昌非院長原因反對報告啊不是嗎對不對不是這回事嗎所以最後保證如果你現在叫院長來以後影響了談判的進行你要負責任嗎你跟我講你跟我講產業衝擊的應變措施會影響談判的結果吳士堯你也拜託幫忙方針原則我沒有叫你講談判細節啊我有叫你講談判細節嗎我不插你話希望爭取下一輪的發言不是啊"},{"start":6554.388,"end":6567.876,"text":"你又在扣帽子嘛不要換概念一直換概念本來就是你一直在換概念啊什麼叫做好嚴重 院長來報告一下我們的應變措施美國關稅談判就會崩盤會這樣子怕成這樣你不要把人民視為洪水猛獸最後我要講吳世祥你要謝謝今天有研會"},{"start":6579.79,"end":6584.773,"text":"你們每天反對研會說什麼想要當薪水小偷不肯開會我告訴你怕什麼 怕這個說怕什麼怕人被抓 怕這個怕那個天天想當薪水小偷不肯研會今天要不要感謝我們今天要不要看看我們今天研會處理了什麼"},{"start":6602.285,"end":6609.407,"text":"臨時會你還要另外再過一個程序今天你研會研會馬上十萬火急就能夠出你待會再講待會補充有時間啦研會研會研會一樣可以處理不是啊研會就可以處理嘛欸抱歉你扣那麼多帽子我們今天不能夠稍微回應一下你都扣半年的帽子了"},{"start":6627.472,"end":6649.087,"text":"今天研會就剛好是救急啊不只是今天關稅我們今天可以用研會來處理啊包括重建條例也是啊重建條例民進黨死拖活拖拖了半天不肯做沒有做國民黨提案之後馬上吳世耀就很大度啊我支持我同意我贊成要做更多啊什麼時候處理"},{"start":6650.248,"end":6656.154,"text":"也是研會處理啊我們比你們早提啦我們比你們早提重建條例啦我跟你講我們吳幹事長我跟你講你的本事我現在還見識到你們連那個額略一路反對到底最後可以拿到海報說"},{"start":6670.168,"end":6690.159,"text":"民進黨支持而虐死刑還說國民黨護航而虐我當天看到那一個你們的海報我就當場嚇到下巴掉下來舌頭大結了啦就是這麼回事嘛你現在又可以講說你們本來就支持重建條例請問為什麼慢吞吞啊國民黨提案之後你們速度才加快啊這也是事實啊"},{"start":6691.164,"end":6718.902,"text":"所以回頭講啊真的有些事情不要逞一時之快當時說出很多的話今天說實在的話你會回頭要感謝一下民眾黨跟國民黨我們能夠今天願意能夠把會期延長不會跑去想要去休假放假放輕鬆來去審查法案審查預算審查今天包括重建特別條例這才是今天一個立法院立法委員該負的責任謝謝"},{"start":6722.393,"end":6740.541,"text":"好 謝謝喔 那個國民黨黨團我這樣聽起來如果我意思沒有理解錯誤的話你們也是支持禮拜五跟禮拜二請行政院長來做專案報告嘛那人數我們就依照那個調整那我們現在要做一個決定啦是不是各個黨團的代表我們要進行第四輪的討論"},{"start":6742.684,"end":6763.895,"text":"我知道你有舉手,請不要急今天主席先道歉我其實基本上各個黨團的委員每個發言都超過我剛設定的三分鐘我也都沒阻止這個是主席的錯誤,但沒有關係因為我覺得這個議題國人非常的重視"},{"start":6764.975,"end":6791.035,"text":"那過去的這幾個月當中我們大家也都在苦苦的等待那很多產業、很多勞工那也非常的重視那因為面對這麼大的議題啦所以我想說各個黨團的代表想要繼續的針對這個議題進行發言那我覺得也是人之常情那導致這個協商大概我們到目前為止已經進行了"},{"start":6792.136,"end":6808.134,"text":"一個小時又23分鐘那既然各個黨團的代表有表達意願要繼續的發言我也不好意思就在這邊就這邊做打斷那不過在整個時間工作上面的分配我現在是不是先請台灣民眾黨"},{"start":6811.097,"end":6826.811,"text":"黨團的代表張祺凱、張委員先站在主席的位置來主持這個會議那台灣民眾黨黨團的代表我們就請陳昭之委員來針對黨團的立場來進行發言那我接下來的會議主持就交給台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":6828.132,"end":6844.02,"text":"的張綺凱張委員來請張委員那張委員再麻煩你按照之前黨團的順序這邊有個輪值表我當主席很公平的一個黨團發言一次然後每次順序交錯進行來請那個張委員來接主席的位置謝謝"},{"start":6848.683,"end":6876.495,"text":"沒有,只有羅志強發言一次,剛陳永康將軍並沒有說話整個發言的順序在這邊,都有客觀的歷史事實,大家都可以對IVOD所以第四輪從哪邊開始?主席離場是什麼意思?"},{"start":6879.696,"end":6885.084,"text":"還會回來嗎主席都不想講了我們在這裡做什麼"},{"start":6887.066,"end":6913.494,"text":"七開委員主席還會回來嗎他都不想講了這是他著急的那我們還要再繼續這裡不過你看他多好讓大家都可以講因為這個議題太重要了啦我們很期待今天我們很期待大家充分表達意見然後最後能夠針對產業跟人民的人民的要求為什麼主席跑了這麼重要我們很慎重啊我們經濟委員會照理回來了對啊他會讓你們大家都可以表達意見你看已經開了一個半小時還不夠重視嗎為什麼主席跑了"},{"start":6913.974,"end":6923.22,"text":"我只是想問一下代理主席這麼重要為什麼主席跑了他已經開了一個半小時就是很重要讓他開了一個半小時啊而且我代理你還是可以繼續講為什麼主席跑了請您回答這個問題啊民進黨的代表請解決問題不要一直只有在製造問題就是這麼重視所以讓大家充分的發言好 接下來代理主席沒有辦法回答這個問題啊"},{"start":6942.872,"end":6945.219,"text":"所以這麼重要的議題為什麼主持跑了"},{"start":6948.188,"end":6963.16,"text":"代理主席沒有辦法回答這個問題嗎這麼重要的關稅議題叫別人趕快來為什麼主席跑了為什麼主席跑了為什麼黃國昌主席跑了為什麼黃國昌主席跑了我還是不曉得為什麼要做報告表達立場了是讓國民黨還是做秀做一做就跑了為什麼是讓國民黨跟台灣民眾黨都已經清楚表達希望"},{"start":6978.071,"end":6994.945,"text":"這個禮拜五跟禮拜二請行政院長來專案報告那民進黨現在還有意見我們就繼續再討論好不好那我們為了公平齁剛剛是陳永康陳委員跟裴以都已經有舉手嘛好我們先請那個陳永康陳委員等一下那個招致第三位好不好來要讓裴以先講來來裴以先講來"},{"start":7002.742,"end":7014.18,"text":"等一下 所以代理主席可以主持完今天我先問程旭的問題喔代理主席可以主持完今天的會議然後最後做出結論嗎還是我們要等主席回來可以請代理主席先回答程旭問題嗎"},{"start":7018.994,"end":7034.036,"text":"主席代理主席我剛有問你是我們要等黃國昌委員回來還是你最後這邊會做完結論還是對我先問一下程序問題我是代理主席嘛等一下我來做最後的裁決好不好當然我裁決一定要經過大家同意你就先講吧"},{"start":7036.089,"end":7061.154,"text":"好我先講一下今天的議案關係文書裡面其實最後一句話談到的是關於台美關稅談判之進程方針原則及台灣產業可能遭受是衝擊影響評估於一個月內進行專案報告並被質詢我不知道為什麼突然間就變成了二五就馬上要行政院來進行報告第二個我們剛剛也已經問了如果"},{"start":7061.994,"end":7069.076,"text":"如果所有的報告或者是我們可以想像務必可以想馬上就可以想像假設二五就已經要造成這個請院長來報告那所有在野黨委員一定會抓著細節問抓著內容問那我就不知道到時候造成的國際談判上的衝擊從28 20%又變回32%這件事情誰要負責"},{"start":7082.799,"end":7086.541,"text":"我很想問在野黨委員你們要負責嗎你們要勇敢的說對你們敢簽免責協定你們敢負責你們要負責那我們就來看看會發生什麼事情再來你們都一直不敢談到232232是台灣非常重要的你們老是說他們是護國神山大家也都知道232所牽涉的不管是在台灣或是在韓國、泰國、日本"},{"start":7106.71,"end":7133.36,"text":"每一個國家在232所適用的產業跟會造成不同產業之間的衝擊難道可以所有國家都一起談嗎難道所有國家狀況都是一樣的嗎你們明明知道台灣在半導體產業這件事情上有非常大的空間需要不同黨派的委員都給予支持但你們現在避而不談232的部分我也覺得很遺憾所以我也認為這件事情"},{"start":7134.821,"end":7157.836,"text":"其實不是只有行政院長出來報告我也認為在野黨委員你們自己要把自己的立場說清楚你們到底要不要支持國家團結你們到底要不要支持台灣所有的產業你們在面對所有關稅衝擊就只會講衝擊你們對於各行各業所會影響到的層面有沒有說清楚更不要講你們在週末的時候拼命的造謠說把匯率跟關稅算在一起這件事情我們也看不出你們的立場"},{"start":7158.937,"end":7185.876,"text":"再來我要問的是剛剛還有人好意思說服貿當年馬英九的國策顧問郝先生郝明義先生是出版業非常重要的前輩當時這些事情會變成輿論所關注的焦點當年他寫的文章我就唸給大家聽標題就好叫做我們剩不到24小時了如何阻止政府在兩岸文化政策上愚昧無能粗魯而自我感覺良好的倒退"},{"start":7186.816,"end":7202.772,"text":"當年出版產業會受到哪些影響我們完全沒有辦法想像而當時連龍應台文化部長在收到郝明義先生電話當面見面之後文化部都說我們不知道發生了什麼事情我們不知道簽了什麼我們甚至不知道這個協議正在進行然後就發生了"},{"start":7206.502,"end":7211.545,"text":"而現在行政團隊也好賴清德總統也好都親自站上火線包含羅志強委員你剛剛說的啊你說那叫四個退讓啊就代表沒有秘密嘛沒有秘密該說的都跟你們說你們質疑的都說能說的都說了我要講的是能說的都說了你今天可以走進任何一個便利商店說你站出來我要知道你的進貨成本你今天可以走進任何一個公司產業說你們正在談判的協議我們都要知道"},{"start":7234.379,"end":7246.184,"text":"這個不是知識 這叫嘗試沒有嘗試也要看電視你連國與國之間在協議進行當中必須要保密的事情你們都要拿起來說嘴我不知道這是連電視都不看還是連嘗試都沒有最後我要說我們支持民眾黨這個提案叫做一個月"},{"start":7255.12,"end":7270.608,"text":"來報告一個月內我們支持但是莫名其妙提出所謂禮拜五禮拜二就立刻要來然後你們在野黨委員也不敢提出承諾如果關稅又回到32%你們是不是要站出來道歉你們要不要說明造成國際上這樣的衝擊你們要不要說明以上 謝謝"},{"start":7274.534,"end":7292.405,"text":"好 我們要公平 所以等一下成國民黨然後接下來是民眾黨因為剛剛陳佩儀 陳委員兩度提到我們台灣民眾黨也是現在行政院 立法院會交給我們這次協商的重點這個提案上面寫的是清清楚楚所以我們支持你們的提案你們支持很好我們支持你們一個月來報告我們就因為是你們"},{"start":7297.269,"end":7310.407,"text":"剛剛黃國昌主席自己突然冒出禮拜五跟禮拜二然後接下來羅志強你們就跟著附和但是請你回到你們今天提案是一個月內對啊一個月內不是包括禮拜五跟下個禮拜二嗎我們就支持你們的一個月內的時間好嗎"},{"start":7314.452,"end":7322.515,"text":"主席也走了大家沒有共識就這樣嘛可是你馬上就要壓日期我們沒有辦法我們再講我們支持民眾黨的提案現在國民黨跟台灣民眾黨提這個禮拜五不是就是一個月內嗎最重要是全民現在需要快請那個民進黨請民進黨尊重主席的主持好不好因為你們剛剛一直"},{"start":7334.219,"end":7345.148,"text":"你們的主席都不尊重我們了你們的主席都甩頭就走都不尊重我們協商代表了你們開了一個半小時你們一直表達意見所以很了不起喔主持的人開來開會這樣尊重我們幹嘛跟我們吵架"},{"start":7351.993,"end":7361.698,"text":"對啊你幹嘛忽然站在主席台代理主席後跟我們就忽然槓起來沒有必要這樣啊玉女現在討論怎麼有槓起來我在做陳培你的提醒說這個禮拜五是不是跟一個月內有關係我說一個月內就包括這禮拜五嘛對不對玉女我們指使你們的提案一個月內玉女你認識中文字法玉女因為沒談完你叫人家就一個月內相信一個月內就談得完嘛"},{"start":7377.486,"end":7383.346,"text":"那我們不同意說這個禮拜五馬上要開對一個月內我們支持這是民眾黨的提案"},{"start":7385.252,"end":7399.244,"text":"對 一個月內來召開那禮拜五馬上這一件事這樣太快了你們換位坐下來聽我講嗎你們的主席都不尊重朝野協商了你們的主席都不尊重我們禮拜五不就是一個月內嗎禮拜五我們這個時候還在談不適宜的要一個月內啊"},{"start":7408.861,"end":7430.217,"text":"禮拜五就是一個月內嘛請你們說一下 等一下可以衝問表達意見來 我們請國民黨的陳永康 陳委主席 代理主席在座的政府的同仁我提一個建議 我不做批評 提建言就是"},{"start":7434.212,"end":7435.793,"text":"美國要求增加國防預算 從3%到5%"},{"start":7450.985,"end":7478.806,"text":"国防预算增加里面大部分的钱是在美国采购军事装备那这个军购里面包括FMS DCS FMF PDA这四个里面有许多的价钱是可以抵消我们的就我们来讲贸易顺差美国当初要提20%关系一开始32%把我们排第六名因为我们的顺差太大对他是逆差可是这个如果"},{"start":7479.807,"end":7494.903,"text":"DCA就是直接商售買的軍售裝備目前並沒有抵銷順差所以在談判過程中我相信談判的代表是專家但並不代表所有的專業專家都納入談判代表"},{"start":7495.62,"end":7513.243,"text":"所以就DCS还有总统授权法案的无偿军购但是后面的料配件是要商售花钱买这些专业的领域往后十年可以抵消许多的贸易顺差谈判代表这个部分建请纳入谈判"},{"start":7514.404,"end":7539.56,"text":"这个是真正可以抵消它的那至于上次我有机会质询你232的部分我们没有时间谈那就这一次你们去美国谈判是我们的谈判总代表跟USTR直接清炒约再交由TECRO跟AIT去endorse NDANDA的内容可以不公布NDO的框架请提供给我们管制多久就法谈法"},{"start":7540.16,"end":7547.906,"text":"那我對大家只有建言 沒有批評我們希望你們做得更好對國家的利益能夠更加的保持 謝謝好 謝謝這個陳委員非常理性的這個建言來 我們接下來按照順序啦 公平我們請那個台灣民眾代表 陳昭之 陳委員"},{"start":7562.729,"end":7582.925,"text":"謝謝民進黨的同事繼續留下來剛剛你們都提到232的部分那232既然這麼重要也不知道之前就是台積電的案子處理得這麼快那232既然這麼重要它怎麼會是分開處理呢就是說為什麼我們從4月一直等到現在我們也希望就是說"},{"start":7583.846,"end":7605.305,"text":"有什麼樣訊息需要大家來協助的在野黨的時候大家一定會共赴國難的但是真的到四個月等了四個月等等等到今天都一無所知所以到底幾階段的談判到底從這個一定要有這些對跟國內這個大家朝野大家有一些各國人想辦法現在有些企業界也出來說讓我們來幫忙讓我們來幫忙嘛"},{"start":7608.848,"end":7612.549,"text":"所以一直讓我們在完全無知不知的情況之下那勞團他們是害怕恐懼你知道有多少勞工團體是在跟在野黨求救他們準備失業他們甚至被裁員被無薪假減薪等等都已經發生了那在這個情況下我覺得目前都沒有安定民心的行話都是太空泛的行話"},{"start":7635.177,"end":7639.78,"text":"那二三二當然我們都說我們在等這個但是我也不理解也許請談判總在總談判的了解為什麼說明一下為什麼他當初是被分開他們因為那是我們已知最重要的籌碼那我也要回應就是說雖然我知道過去也許不是這樣談剛剛陳將軍談到的我們在國防預算的部分為什麼沒有辦法是有困難是提了被拒絕還等等為什麼不能納入因為這個部分就已經足以抵消"},{"start":7665.317,"end":7675.342,"text":"希望院長能夠來做報告那我還是講一句三天嘛剩下三天的時間嘛已經是一百小時內的事情這個一個月內請到我剛剛特別看一下這個這份資料發的時候是7月18號我們怎麼會知道怎麼會知道"},{"start":7684.182,"end":7692.627,"text":"這麼快就公佈了一個20的資料在這裡那一個月內事實上是過去的管理但是7月 你遠看7月18號那現在8月7號要生效嘛所以我想如果我們意味而處的話我們不同的角色來看我們今天一定會要求趕快來報告因為馬上就要揭曉了嘛馬上就要揭曉 好 以上好 各個黨團已經進行了四輪的這個說明跟意見的充分表達那"},{"start":7713.757,"end":7736.748,"text":"事實上今天的協調會是因為院會交下來這個按鈕寫得清清楚楚第一個是一個月內進行專案報告並被執行一個月當然從今天算都是一個月內這是一個事所以沒有禮拜五太急的這個事情這個要先明確的這個說明那第二個這個按鈕裡面講的是什麼請行政院長率同相關部會的首長就"},{"start":7737.861,"end":7767.233,"text":"台美談判的進程、方針、原則還有大家非常關心的事實上這個就是趙志毅在提的我們第一次被公佈32%的時候我們到了行政院三長去行政院我們就要求的就是對於台灣產業可能遭受到的衝擊評價評估報告這部分行政院到現在沒有很明確的跟我們的民眾講所以我們要求這部分針對這四部分來做專案報告所以時間有了專案的內容也有了"},{"start":7768.308,"end":7791.085,"text":"然後講甚至有沒有什麼保密的這個內容根本就沒有影響到所以剛剛包括國民黨跟台灣民眾黨非常明確的建議這個禮拜五跟下個禮拜二邀請行政院院長來做專案報告然後這個剛剛台灣民眾黨也建議了這個人數就是依照18、17比3來分配那如果民進黨不要再有意見我們是依照這樣"},{"start":7792.575,"end":7803.038,"text":"現在真的 那個思雅 全國的民眾都在等啦我可以爭取發言嗎 主席我只是先提醒 等一下會讓思雅講思雅 我只是提醒你你上次風災的時候 你看風災老蔣剛剛在討論說什麼風災的重建條例風災很好 這周他們馬上就提出了行政院禮拜四就會提出特別條例了民進黨 事實上最早的是台灣民眾黨 是我代表上去提的喔"},{"start":7814.842,"end":7822.747,"text":"風災後第五天我們就提出要重塑重觀人家在災區第一線就已經要求了然後要趕快提災後重建條例就是談到最早的你們已經錯過了時機了好啦今天不要再講風災了那今天不要高關稅風災錯過今天高關稅又錯過民眾不會原諒你們好我可以發言囉好請說"},{"start":7837.523,"end":7845.381,"text":"這個我非常佩服我們的代理主席永遠可以帶風向真的是很強大這樣子然後但都是背離事實"},{"start":7847.678,"end":7868.073,"text":"我們今天就是也談了這麼久的時間只是非常的遺憾這麼重要的協商主持人黃國昌主席就甩頭走人了也沒有看過那這樣他是多麼重視的這個協商我也不解那民進黨團我們從頭到尾今天現在是第五輪的發言我們非常的慎重黨團的兩長連經濟文化的召委蔡義渝召委都來這裡來參與討論"},{"start":7873.978,"end":7877.344,"text":"我們的結論就是我們同意今天民眾黨黨團就願會交付下來的這一個決議"},{"start":7882.113,"end":7905.127,"text":"的內容案由寫得很清楚在這些要報告的事項於一個月內進行專案報告並備諮詢就一個月內談定之後該來就馬上來如果今天你們要跳躍逾越你們自己的提案內容直接進行又再去壓縮了時間在談判還沒出來之前就要求什麼8月8號或下週二這個"},{"start":7906.728,"end":7926.104,"text":"協商結論我們愛南同意我們同意的是原始的提案因為這才是今天協商的標的第二個呢這個台美的談判就如同我們今天的協商都還沒有進入最終局今天這個就立法院的議事規則是由提案的黨團所召集的黨團協商"},{"start":7927.385,"end":7956.428,"text":"后续还有韩国瑜院长真正的院长不是黄院长是韩国瑜院长还有一关他召集的朝野协商如果今天在党团协商没有办法有共识的话就请韩国瑜院长再召集各党团大党边境也都没有来那再召集一次朝野协商我们可以获得更可能有更好的结果也不一定所以今天的结论民进党团非常清楚的再次表明我们的立场谈判在进行当中我们要克尊"},{"start":7957.108,"end":7962.37,"text":"我們的國際談判的一些原則世界上各國沒有任何一國的國會要求談判過程當中就要公開一些談判過程的資訊確實世界各國沒有世界各國也沒有任何一個國家在談判過程就被迫要求所謂的保密協議這些都是台灣的國會都是創下這個沒有見過的這種要求"},{"start":7983.94,"end":8013.323,"text":"那一个月来报告我们就遵循院会交付下来的这个决议民进党团支持的是这个决议那至于其他的部分刚刚陈永康委员提的建议也好或者是陈昭志委员对半导体产业的这个决议也好后续再一些质询其实各委员会都在进行专案报告各委员会其实也都在排定相关的专案报告那这些部分都可以把好的意见带给我们的谈判代表给我们的行政团队那我们希望今天协商没有结论"},{"start":8013.843,"end":8019.07,"text":"但是它就不是終局 還有韓院長 曹營協商各黨團可以再談 那大家都辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":8034.667,"end":8050.343,"text":"這個會議經過了五輪的發言大家充分的表達事實上黃國昌黃主席也非常重視所以這個會議一共進行了一個小時45分鐘那國民黨跟台灣民眾黨非常明確的要求這個禮拜五進行"},{"start":8054.987,"end":8073.721,"text":"專案報告由行政院院長周中泰率各部位的首長就台美談判的進程方針原則跟台灣產業可能受到衝擊影響評估報告進行專案報告並被質詢而且時間是一個月內那現在國民黨跟民進台灣民眾黨已經提了這個禮拜五可是呢"},{"start":8074.861,"end":8085.203,"text":"民進黨反對在禮拜我們希望韓院長召集朝野協商吧今天沒有結論依照議事規則可以直接進行我們在這裡要求韓院長召集朝野協商我們要求韓院長召集朝野協商"},{"start":8097.906,"end":8109.515,"text":"我們現場都要求了我們都要求了我們都要求立法院長久的議員不要忘記韓院長的存在不要忘記韓院長的存在本黨團在這裡具體要求韓院長交集朝野協商今天我們的要求不要架空韓國瑜院長好不好主席請看一下這叫做黨團協商一道慣例就是黨團協商沒有談好的話"},{"start":8123.726,"end":8128.03,"text":"就是我們也現場要求韓國瑜院長召開朝野協商黨團協商沒有結論的話依慣例我們現場也已經提出了再交由韓院長的朝野協商這是立法院的議事規則好嗎這是立法院的議事規則不要胡扯了"},{"start":8141.544,"end":8143.305,"text":"張其凱不要胡扯了好嗎我們要求和余朝野協商好嗎這是什麼主持啊你主持不下去然後下不了台然後就只會在這邊人身攻擊"},{"start":8157.21,"end":8161.011,"text":"那你要尊重我們的要求啊既然今天黨團協商沒有結論必然的程序我們也現場提出請韓國瑜院長召集朝野協商就是這樣你講的才是錯的在蘇嘉全蘇院長的時候只要黨團協商沒有結論就是韓院長他必然召集朝野協商除非韓院長他不協商除非韓院長你才造謠你根本不懂不會當立委回家去啦"},{"start":8187.663,"end":8199.263,"text":"請尊重韓國瑜院長你們現在民眾黨是怎樣眼中都沒有韓國瑜院長了嗎我說尊重韓院長召集協商啦立法院有慣例嘛讓韓院長來召集協商啊"},{"start":8200.168,"end":8205.55,"text":"在蘇嘉全擔任立法院的時候因為他任職之後要怎麼處理當時大家都同意院長不再召集朝野協商的狀況之下可是今天民進黨團具體的要求這個議案我們希望韓院長的朝野協商不能夠被踐踏不能被逾越我們現場已經提出要求了我們已經提出要求不要視而不見"},{"start":8228.34,"end":8234.761,"text":"不要視而不見代理主席不要視而不見我們的意見就是既定的詮釋你們周恩來的書還能看嗎周恩來哪裡公正了周恩來哪裡公正了你們 我們就具體要求韓院長學生你才莫名其妙你意思是韓院長召集的所有超越學生"},{"start":8254.085,"end":8257.726,"text":"你就是只會學黃國昌那一招就是要把所有的表決卡在你們主持的黨團協商把韓院長的權力也閹割了"},{"start":8278.231,"end":8290.882,"text":"以後韓院長再也不用協商了因為只要黃國昌民眾黨召集黨團協商你們就押一個你們自己認定的片面的結論說我們送院會處理不要這樣凌駕委員會中心主義已經被你們凌駕閹割成這樣不要連韓院長的朝野協商都要沒收不要連韓院長的權利都要沒收填我的名號不好意思兩個路徑本來都有就不要亂講好不好"},{"start":8305.635,"end":8314.727,"text":"本來都有啊 再說一次 也沒有說一定要學院長學長你聽到了我們的要求了嗎國民黨的委員要嫁給韓國瑜院長嗎這兩個路徑都有跟教育的關係你要求嗎"},{"start":8323.739,"end":8343.339,"text":"博士強尼反對林昶堅韓院長協商嗎可以處理相信韓院長會有智慧協商我們剛剛又沒有說黨團協商沒有公司做教育協商可是我要回頭講啊我沒說你們不對啊但你也不要譴責主席我們沒有說你們"},{"start":8346.722,"end":8365.295,"text":"不要三岡道加工韓國瑜沒有這回事過去兩個路徑都有對不對韓國瑜院長協商有什麼不對過去兩個路徑都有沒有不對那兩個路徑是絕對對都認為不需要再協商的狀況我們認為需要我們認為需要給韓院長協商的權利吧你們認為需要尊重嗎好 那就尊重"},{"start":8376.642,"end":8386.705,"text":"因為我自己要說要尊重我們的意見我可以坐下來你不要扯到說這叫架空韓院長根本兩回事不要咬我半吨主席那他也尊重韓院長可以協商那就這樣"},{"start":8391.827,"end":8400.817,"text":"我說尊重你提出署章但是我不能接受你把他上綱到加封韓院長院長寫不寫上本來兩個路徑都從一層的我們也會行文給韓院長我們也會要求只是非常的悲哀現在民眾黨永遠要用黨團寫章做結論"},{"start":8411.869,"end":8433.249,"text":"那我們已經很清楚了我們希望這個案子可以繼續談一個月內你們的原始提案我們都支持支持一個月內行政院長來報告我們都支持對啊你們這樣不尊重不是不尊重栗不尊重主席也是不尊重栗法院不尊重自己好我來做個好我把麥克風關掉了請尊重栗法院好不好"},{"start":8434.838,"end":8463.637,"text":"好 本來就是像對呀 沒錯啊你們一直吵到來消音你們不尊重自己也不尊重立法院啊好 你們剛剛提案最重要的事實上就是志強講的兩個路徑本來兩個路徑本來就是都可以的在蘇嘉全擔任立法院院長的時候因為每次為了草野協商之後要不要馬上直接處理還是要經過院長那時候有過爭執後來做的決定就是兩個途徑都可以請尊重慣例"},{"start":8465.455,"end":8480.022,"text":"回去看一下周恩來的書好不好回去看看立法院長久建立的議事慣例好不好我再講一次給你聽好不好不要造謠吳思瑤不要造謠在蘇嬌前擔任院長的時候"},{"start":8480.882,"end":8504.437,"text":"朝野協商的這個結論要送到直接院會處理或者送到院長再協商一次已經有決定兩條路徑就可以了就是依照議事規則那現在民進黨也要求其中一條路徑雖然是兩條都可以的所以本席來宣告今天的結論各黨團已經進行了五輪的這個充分的這個說明了可是呢今天的這個協商過程在公開狀況之下"},{"start":8505.575,"end":8516.062,"text":"還是有些爭議我們把今天公開的過程發言全部內容金魚魚記錄 請把它記錄下來那本案因為沒辦法取得共識 國民黨跟"},{"start":8518.223,"end":8538.923,"text":"民眾黨都提了這個禮拜五可是民進黨表示反對所以我們後續要依照議事規則也是依照立法院之前行使法的第12條相關的規定來辦理依照第12章的相關規定來辦理就是依照議事規則我剛剛講了兩個路徑都是可以的好 今天非常謝謝"},{"start":8540.914,"end":8556.344,"text":"國民黨還有立法院的黨團還有台灣民眾黨的黨團各個代表的這個出席也謝謝行政院官員的這個累洗所以我們今天就做成以上的這個結議接下來就依照議事規則來處理好今天協商會議到此結束謝謝大家 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台南及嘉峪因大規模停電及光纖中斷那造成部分地區行動網路中斷 影響災區民眾通訊權益那數位發展部在中央災害應變中心的指導下隨即協同通傳會啟動相關應處作為並以災後與電信事業研議車禁作為以保障重大災害時行動通訊網路營運不中斷那這些即時應車禁"},{"start":2225.015,"end":2246.263,"text":"作為包含了協同通傳會與電信業者動員搭配低軌衛星終端設備的行動基地一台車緊急恢復部分災區的通訊服務那在這裡面呢在災害發生的那幾天呢我們總共出動了28台的衛星車然後其中有一台"},{"start":2247.583,"end":2268.331,"text":"那有兩台是留在另外兩個會有災害的地方所以基本上九成以上的車子都已經出動那但是呢在這一次的災害裡面呢總共最嚴重的時候總共有一千兩百站一千兩百個站點的"},{"start":2270.825,"end":2295.682,"text":"1200個站點的基地台是無法運作的所以這28台車在只能在重要的節點跟民眾聚集的部分去穩定災區的通訊包含了這幾天的水災我剛剛收到最新的資訊這幾天水災我們昨天跟今天也出動了16台車分別在台南嘉義地區去穩定災區的通訊"},{"start":2296.883,"end":2300.145,"text":"那針對這個通訊中斷的根因根據我們統計的資料第一個就是說40%是因為電力50%是因為網路中斷那所以根據這些根因我們研議"},{"start":2314.855,"end":2328.756,"text":"跟通傳會以及電信業者商談呢 沿以以下五大策進作為那希望能夠透過第五期的前瞻預算用共識協力的方式補助電信業者強化通訊網路運作能力那讓"},{"start":2330.538,"end":2348.823,"text":"未來災害發生時通訊服務能夠更具韌性第一個就是說我們希望強化目前衛星終端設備的基地台車因為顯然在大規模災害的時候這樣的車子的數量是越多越好所以在"},{"start":2349.443,"end":2374.758,"text":"在今年的預算裡面我們會針對三家電信台車各增供三台也會針對它既有的行動基地台車進行改裝、構置衛星終端設備機架與相關設備在需要的時候可以快速把低軌衛星架到這些車子上面這部分也會有31台"},{"start":2376.159,"end":2395.836,"text":"再來從根因裡面我們可以看到很多是因為電的原因造成基地台失效因此我們在前瞻計畫裡面也規劃會構置200多台可吸式的緊急發電機希望在提供停電區域的基地台所需要的電力"},{"start":2397.057,"end":2408.585,"text":"那最後有兩點非常重要第一個就是說我們分析嘉南地區這次的效應"},{"start":2411.951,"end":2438.379,"text":"經過協調我們希望在前瞻計畫裡面的高抗災基地台所謂的高抗災基地台就是它可以具72小時的備援電力並耐15級強風也具有第二傳輸鏈路的韌性措施等等這些我們會優先在災區進行建設也會協同通傳會及電信業者研議光染地下化以避免因為附掛在電線桿上造成風災的損失"},{"start":2440.14,"end":2465.522,"text":"那最後呢因應新興科技演進及環境變化呢那本部呢將持續延提及推動提升國家通訊網路的各項方案那並透過精進多元一直通便應變網路提升重大災害時的通訊網路韌性那數位發展部曾各位委員的指導及監督在此致敬謝誠那希望各位委員能繼續給予支持謝謝"},{"start":2469.616,"end":2475.384,"text":"好 謝謝我們切正次現在請NCC國家通信委員會陳崇樹主委來報告"},{"start":2488.82,"end":2509.057,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那就是很榮幸應邀參加經營的專案報告那當然是颱風的災前應變這個專案報告大概分為幾個部分事前事中事後事前的災前應變的話NCC這邊一向都會來依據災防法來要求業者提報"},{"start":2510.358,"end":2537.984,"text":"災害防救業務計畫然後每兩年要做檢討滾動檢討然後我們NCC也有請業者來進駐我們南區監理處進行災害防救聯合演練來盤點相關的動員效率及救援能量強化災時協調的機制那當那次颱風造成受損都是市中的通報跟應變的部分"},{"start":2540.14,"end":2552.817,"text":"7月6日晚間在颱風登陸之後那最高峰時期有12000多戶設化停化行入台如前面所提到的也有1200多台來中斷"},{"start":2555.901,"end":2583.443,"text":"這大範圍的損毀狀況在事後的復原上也確實讓業者花費不少的力氣那颱風離境後風雨間歇我們有請業者趕快跨區調派人力物力包括像一些行動車從北中從花東都往那邊去調最高峰時期總共有43部行動基地台車前往雲江南來支援"},{"start":2584.344,"end":2611.156,"text":"那目前到7月31日目前在市化部分還有台南北門跟雪甲地區大概還有一些市化用戶數還是沒有通那後來又因為好雨的關係也影響了業者的派工進行那這邊我們也會持續來加強注意請業者來在環境許可情況下趕快去派工把它修復那"},{"start":2612.376,"end":2638.522,"text":"因為有很多的基台在風災時是因為獨立型鐵塔式的都已經被吹倒那因為原來的高度都30公尺到35公尺那倒下來之後那雖然是業者很快就以臨時工法來方式來佈建這個臨時基站但是因為高度的差異造成的涵蓋面沒有災前這麼好那我們也請業者就這一部分請"},{"start":2639.542,"end":2667.497,"text":"究竟旁邊已經有修復的基地台調整天氣角度來補足涵蓋也派行動車來補足這個臨時基站所涵蓋部署的地方那目前大概每天大概都還有30餘部行動車在災區來部署那在前幾天好雨之後這些資源的數量都持續在這個30幾部左右"},{"start":2668.877,"end":2691.772,"text":"事後的檢討部分我們簡單來講是我們希望未來的業者在災害防救要強化它的韌性機台部分要請業者建置能夠更多的有富士涵蓋的一些部件然後也持續在推動公有建築物的政策"},{"start":2692.512,"end":2720.505,"text":"也希望業者優化通信品質那剛剛確切提到了這個高抗災基地台部分我們也會持續來督導業者來爭取申請那另外本次風災因為有很多是復發就是後傳的傳輸網路是光線是復發在電感上因為電感倒了3000多根所以這個災情嚴重那這一部分的話"},{"start":2723.159,"end":2751.635,"text":"衛星中繼在災時最高峰時期是唯一能夠支援的行動車那這部分我們未來也會持續來協調業者跟相關部會來做一些能量上的加強建構另外最後在電纜地下化可行的部分我們也請業者規劃電纜地下化或增加感性鐵塔的抗風係數雖然目前我們NCC的"},{"start":2752.748,"end":2773.562,"text":"技術規範有要求到抗16級風那這部分但是這部分舊的工法裡頭大概可能是抗風係數還不夠未來我們都會來持續加強那另外通訊中斷的補償部分大概分兩大區塊第一個是依據地形化契約我們都有持續要求業者務必要從寬認定"},{"start":2776.204,"end":2803.372,"text":"那另外是業者自發性的提出相關的關懷措施跟補償那目前三大行動業者都額外贈送受災用戶連續兩個月網路外300分鐘的通話數那因為災情的持續配合這個好雨的又後來又失眠那我們這段期間都有請三大業者要建構專線客服專線那目前三大業者這個專線都已經上線"},{"start":2805.956,"end":2819.971,"text":"最後捷域的部分通訊是八大關鍵基礎設施的一個重要的一環也是所謂的生命線那這邊無論就在於指揮或者民眾的通報上都需要仰賴通訊這邊NCC會持續來督導業者"},{"start":2823.772,"end":2851.104,"text":"提升災時搶救能量以備援那也會配合數位部協助業者提升數位韌性以上報告敬請委員支持謝謝好謝謝NCC我們陳主委的報告各位委員因為我們這個議事錄議事人員已經先讀完畢請問各位委員議事錄有沒有意見"},{"start":2853.029,"end":2866.407,"text":"好沒有意見我們就議事錄確定好現在我們接下來請兩個單位我們就是摘要來報告首先我們再請中華電信我們簡董事長來檢要報告"},{"start":2880.607,"end":2898.323,"text":"主席還有各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早今天應邀到貴委員會來就位丹娜施風災通信終端跟復原的檢討做一些報告我想我因為前面兩位長官大概把狀況都做了一些說明我大概檢要報告"},{"start":2899.243,"end":2910.187,"text":"這一次的通訊中斷跟復原過程這個是7月5日以來百年難得罕見的清洗台灣的西南部所以就中華電信來看我們市化總共有14000多戶寬頻大概46000戶MOD上網大概41000戶"},{"start":2921.491,"end":2949.798,"text":"那行動基地台我們總共有1075台來倒掉電線桿 2000多支的電線桿這個是7月5號發生之後 截至7月底我們總共代修了 剛才的代修了從到7月底 我們事發用戶還有2000多戶那寬頻有700多戶 MOD只剩下33戶那行動基地台 只剩下33台 那電線桿"},{"start":2951.258,"end":2971.745,"text":"事實上都移開 所以基本上電線桿因為電線桿倒掉那個線不會斷掉 只是要把電線桿復舊目前電線桿的復舊還有一段時間 但是不會影響通訊但是這兩天 這兩天這個雨又太大了所以這兩天持續在市化用戶又增加了一千"},{"start":2973.266,"end":2987.866,"text":"500戶所以總共目前代休戶是3600那寬頻又多了700多所以還有1400戶那以中華電信的休戶能量一天如果天氣好可以到500到1000但是在休的過程當中又增加了"},{"start":2988.947,"end":3002.193,"text":"這個障礙所以一天現在修路能量大概是300到500從台南跟嘉義這部分那我們一起本來8月6號全部就修完了那最近這個雨又來了可能我們會再依照這個戶數來講可能會到8月15到20左右看天氣的狀況"},{"start":3007.555,"end":3026.487,"text":"那我們主要的派工以台南加一師沒有辦法所以我們又增加了工班工班原來它的能量我們又增加了5倍的工班進去在各地來修復那此次的這個救災的部分我們在行動部分第一時間我們派了17台"},{"start":3027.687,"end":3054.44,"text":"這個移動車齁 搭配了八台有低軌衛星one web進去齁第一時間把主要重要的地方的這個通訊把他這個因為導覽多台把通訊這個能夠涵蓋起來另外我們對於沒有導台的部分齁有電的部分我們把它調整角度所以在整個中華電信的行動涵蓋部分齁很快在短期間內可能一兩天就基本上現在大概涵蓋"},{"start":3055.24,"end":3075.682,"text":"都沒有特別問題那剩下這個三十五台主要剛才陳主委報告的這三十五台主要是鐵塔整個太高了整個壞掉那這些需要花一點時間在建這個高塔所以這部分我們也努力調動能力在搶修當中預計看看八月底這邊"},{"start":3076.443,"end":3099.751,"text":"有沒有繼續把他整個鐵塔修好那此次中華電信的這個投入的人大概是有6900多個人次現在每天大概都還有250到300人在當地在台南嘉義當地在做這個搶修部分那我想這個事情發生之後我想對客戶的關懷啦或者是剛才陳主委的這個檢免我們兩個月"},{"start":3102.172,"end":3107.155,"text":"行動通訊會每個月300分鐘兩個月就600分鐘就已經啟動了客戶的關懷、檢免的部分以及帳單玩腳這部分我們都已經有實施針對此次的檢討部分我覺得有幾個地方可以提供就是說"},{"start":3121.545,"end":3139.344,"text":"這個行動的部分在基地台的高抗災的基地台要多建一些目前全台灣270台在這個台灣嘉義地方大概30幾個高抗台所以在偏鄉的高抗台我們也許可以再增進一些另外個業者"},{"start":3141.007,"end":3168.857,"text":"尤其中華電信對於行動基地台的儲能讓他能夠因為風災倒台的時間慢一點如果能夠做到一台可以8小時那不是每一台而是跳台來建對偏鄉的韌性會有提升這部分我們本身就會來建設另外我們也跟台電在合作因為我們的基網上面都有我們的基地台那希望台電因為在各個地方都有所以我們也跟台電"},{"start":3169.717,"end":3194.943,"text":"台電也很謝謝台電這一次能夠大家談在台電的幾個主要關鍵的地方能夠建過基地台這樣對於通訊任性跟救災會有相當大的幫助有關低中高軌衛星的使用我就不特別報告這一次低軌衛星有用到雲層比較厚也許會有阻礙但是我們同時在行動車裡面我們也搭配我們的同步軌道衛星"},{"start":3195.763,"end":3223.375,"text":"所以雲層比較好的狀況我們會啟動我們的這個同步軌道高軌道的這個衛星來讓我們的移動車能夠也很順暢在災區災民或者是救災所使用那以上簡單報告好謝謝我們中華電信的簡董事長現在請行政院災害防災防救辦公室我們王主任王一文主任來報告"},{"start":3237.621,"end":3257.468,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早安大家好那麼首先我們來說明一下丹納斯颱風是1958年來由南而北穿越台灣海峽由嘉義登陸的颱風最大陣風達到17級而且沒有中央山脈的阻擋造成各種的災情"},{"start":3258.388,"end":3274.509,"text":"那麼中央災害面中心依這個標準作業程序立即開設那麼我們對於整個颱風的作業都非常的嚴謹那麼對於丹納斯颱風現在進入復原重建的階段"},{"start":3275.63,"end":3296.178,"text":"行政院卓院長已經昨天已經指示將會提出丹納斯颱風災後復原重建的特別條例那對於在政策上會非常迅速的提供相關有效的一個資源在通訊電力的一個部分包括基地台光監骨幹固網緊急電信衛星通訊備援我們來強化關於災後的相關的通訊韌性"},{"start":3303.021,"end":3313.232,"text":"那麼首先我就非常簡單短的說明丹納斯颱風應變的一些概述那中央災害面中心在7月5號成立發布開設那麼在18日11時"},{"start":3321.5,"end":3336.034,"text":"進入的一個重建的一個階段那麼在過程當中整合跨部會的資源開設了19次工作匯報以及勤資研判那這個期間呢地方政府也都開設地方層級的應變中心"},{"start":3337.836,"end":3362.301,"text":"那這張竅書已經解除丹納颱風的陸上颱風警報但是整個行政院的團隊以及跨部會的工作群組我們是持續在運作那第二項關於電力及通訊的損失那這個部分百萬戶的停電當然也影響到通訊那集體台因為強風、好雨受損1293座剛才不論是速發部或通傳會的"},{"start":3367.682,"end":3390.114,"text":"一個主委都講得非常的清楚那通訊的一個中斷的一個應處在中央災害應變中心開設的一個階段對於停電及通訊中斷我們都有掌握災情而且請台電跟通訊業者派出搶修的一個團隊全力進入搶修的一個作業"},{"start":3390.994,"end":3407.784,"text":"那麼中央戰略面中心在調度行動基地台的一個部分也非常感謝通傳會的一個協助將各式的一個通訊的一個車輛比如說累積出動的人39410人次各項的通訊車次"},{"start":3410.766,"end":3424.42,"text":"機具都全力搶修那在復原重建的一個部分行政院公共工程委員會已經成立丹納斯颱風的一個專案由陳金德政委來督導協調召開專案的統籌會議去研擬相關的一個救助方案"},{"start":3429.525,"end":3445.74,"text":"那對於通訊設施修復剛才通常會的主委也提到是因為鐵塔供購的一個傾倒臨時搭建的鐵塔因為它的涵蓋範圍比較難以恢復到災前的水準所以有時候通訊會比較稍微"},{"start":3447.601,"end":3467.768,"text":"比較不好一點那請就是請這個災區的民眾去能夠了解這樣的一個情況最後的總結就是說我們對於丹納斯颱風造成這樣子一個非常嚴重的災情事實上是因為它的路徑非常特殊它有別於過去典型的颱風所以呢"},{"start":3468.268,"end":3487.547,"text":"我們將來會吸取相關的經驗也感謝委員的一個對於這個未來重建的法制以及相關的工作能夠繼續給予指導以及相關的支持以上的報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們行政院辦公室的王主任"},{"start":3489.471,"end":3509.844,"text":"接下來我們進行巡打先告以下事項巡打時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員花園登記在10點30分截止各委員如果有臨時提案請10點鐘"},{"start":3513.018,"end":3526.809,"text":"以前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘現在請登記第一號的李昆哲委員執行謝謝召委請一下蘇阿布 薛司長還有NCC陳大理主委陳主委"},{"start":3547.482,"end":3570.328,"text":"市長跟主委 現在極端氣候市面尤其像這樣的一個牆台豪雨的衝擊對人民生活影響非常的大那在整個災情期間 我想不管是電力的恢復 飲食的提供以及電信的暢通 是災民最期望能夠迅速 政府能夠處理的"},{"start":3571.428,"end":3594.628,"text":"但是我們看到當那次颱風在7月6號登陸之後有1322座的基地台受到損害有2800根的電纜受損那我們看到基地台因為天線的偏移倒塌或者是相關附掛於電感的這些通訊設施因為電線感倒塌而受到損害"},{"start":3595.589,"end":3612.059,"text":"那整個災區的電路大概是在災後的第16天才全部的一個基本的恢復但是在災後的14到24天將近一個月的期間整個通訊的品質"},{"start":3613.48,"end":3621.407,"text":"還是因為常常頻繁的斷訊網路不穩或者是有線電視停播的這種狀況造成這種通訊孤島的狀況對人民的這個生活衝擊非常的大塑化部跟NCC責任非常的重大"},{"start":3632.895,"end":3650.88,"text":"我現在請教一下我們現在除了要讓這些基地台重新的建置恢復搶修之外我們主要的處理這種臨時的大量的通訊的斷訊塑化部還有什麼處理的方案嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":3654.21,"end":3677.101,"text":"報告委員在這一次的救災蘇發部這邊最主要是調度28台有低軌衛星的行動基地車那在災害應變中心總共有106台行動基地台車是由NCC跟蘇發部統籌來調度那這裡面因為我們判斷災害的原因有"},{"start":3677.921,"end":3705.035,"text":"有一半是電一半是網路那所以這時候這30台有低軌衛星還有10台有這個同步衛星的車子變得非常重要市長我們對於這樣一個電訊的恢復主要還是在臨時的處置還是有三大方向的第一個當然是臨時行動臨時基地台的建置但臨時基地台的建置它的覆蓋率還是會有個問題"},{"start":3706.175,"end":3728.367,"text":"那接下來就是行動基地台車還有衛星通訊車但是我們的行動基地台車跟衛星通訊車數量是明顯的不足啦這是一個很重要的問題在整個災情的期間那如果災民無法在通訊方面保持基本的暢通的話"},{"start":3729.167,"end":3756.966,"text":"他們對於國家重要的即時資訊氣象資訊還有相關的重要的訊息等等生活的訊息等等都完全無法掌握這對人民的生活憧憬非常的大那我們來看我們的行動基地台車它是可以暫時的恢復相關通訊的重要的功能那行動基地台車中華電信有50輛"},{"start":3758.541,"end":3776.842,"text":"台客大有32輛那遠傳有24輛那行動機綠台車當然比較適合在電線桿斷裂但是光纖仍然通行的這樣的一個狀況下來做使用那衛星通訊車中華電信台客大遠傳各有10輛那"},{"start":3778.703,"end":3799.919,"text":"更能夠支援整片的這種骨幹網路在癱瘓的一個時刻他們都是有重要的一個功能但是數量不夠而且要買這樣的一個行動基地台車或尤其是衛星通訊車它費用比較高費用比較高來市長你了解的狀況說明一下"},{"start":3802.199,"end":3826.124,"text":"跟委員報告就是說衛星通訊車的部分呢那以我們現在看到的每一個建置費用大概要1150萬到1500萬因為它包含它的車體啦電力設備改裝工程單單這個部分大概就要600萬那你還有5G的基地台設備啦資安設備運輸設備也要大概400到800那低軌衛星的中端設備也大概要150"},{"start":3831.425,"end":3852.708,"text":"整體的這種建置的費用就大概1,150萬到1,550萬左右那這種相關的我們政府要去督促業者來負起社會責任添夠必要的這些衛星通信車那政府除了這樣的一個督促的"},{"start":3854.419,"end":3866.089,"text":"這樣的一個責任之外也不能只是消極的等待業者去擔負這樣的社會責任我們政府能不能有積極的一個做法或者是我們會不會去討論我們針對相關的衛星通信車"},{"start":3870.012,"end":3895.695,"text":"在硬體來給予跟業者合作或者是在軟體的部分來跟他們給予合作不管是車體通信設備這些資安設備等等來說明一下市長我們有什麼規劃嗎跟委員報告第一個就是說我們在第五期的前瞻計畫已經有規劃就是在今年的下半年三家業者各會增加三台那總共九台全新的車子"},{"start":3896.696,"end":3915.507,"text":"那再來呢剛剛委員的投影片裡面有提到有一些行動基地台車是沒有衛星的大概有106台這裡面有一定的比例是沒有衛星的那我們也會在前瞻計畫補助他先把衛星的支架裝起來那如果我們在救災的時候有"},{"start":3916.147,"end":3932.623,"text":"有其他的衛星接收器可以調度就可以很快的裝到這些車子上面去這些相關的時程都必須如期如止而且希望能夠盡快的提早完成那相關的我們在這一次的這些通訊設備的恢復過程裡面"},{"start":3935.265,"end":3954.007,"text":"其實在丹納斯風災期間我們是可以看到中華電信的恢復比較快那遠傳跟台客大是比較慢這也不是說遠傳跟台客大他們相關的這種恢復能力他們的意願不高也不是因為中華電訊他"},{"start":3956.369,"end":3984.872,"text":"相關的在一些重要的工友監務它的電力的供應部分因為跟台電的這些配合啊他們也是比較早成立的這種中華電信是比較早的一個電信公司而且是以前具有這種官方的性質所以在電力的供應部分啊他們能夠比較快的一個恢復因為我們知道這種電力中斷啊你有沒有備援電力這個非常重要啊"},{"start":3985.512,"end":4000.063,"text":"因為多數的機率台雖然配有UPS發電機但是你只能續航幾個小時而已如果主電源沒有恢復發電機供油中斷通訊就立即中斷"},{"start":4002.123,"end":4026.057,"text":"剛才中華電信在報告的過程裡面他們希望能夠跟台電更加的合作能夠在相關的經濟台的合作能夠數量更多中華電信已經是最多了那遠傳跟台客大我們也必須要來協助不只是台電而且是相關的工友建物我們如何來協調這些開放因為你是在偏鄉相關的這些"},{"start":4028.058,"end":4043.89,"text":"地區更應該在救渣的這種過程裡面要扮演重要的一個協助的角色來說明一下這個NCC說明一下文說得非常專業這個在公有建物提供成熟來"},{"start":4044.691,"end":4063.773,"text":"供業者來設置這塊是大概從由院長時期就開始持續推動我們上禮拜才進行頒獎這部分我們會加強力道持續來推進那另外也補充那三家電信業者因為體質上不一樣中華電信早期是綜合網路業者所以他有很多的那個中計局還有機房"},{"start":4064.133,"end":4083.821,"text":"所以它在這個本身的一些站台上的的制高點或者電力的供應上會比另外兩家好另外兩家很多都是民宅部分所以在電力還沒恢復前另外兩家的復原能力會比較稍微慢一點好 雖然在基地台設置的相關使用管理辦法第14條第15條都有規定公共場域應該優先來控告那管理區管"},{"start":4089.724,"end":4106.841,"text":"不得沒有正當的理由來拒絕但是其實相關的公交部分都是比較消極因為我們除了地方政府同意也要經過安全的一些檢驗還有警官的一些考量等等其實這種地方政府配合意願都不高"},{"start":4107.681,"end":4123.434,"text":"這個NCC應該針對這些不管是消防派出所 相公所比較偏向這些地區必須要盡力的來去做協調主動的 積極的來協調這是一個重要的方向那最後時間的關係"},{"start":4125.799,"end":4142.231,"text":"我來請教一下除了臨時的基地台除了行動基地台車除了衛星通訊車這三個臨時的處置的方式之外那漫遊可不可行"},{"start":4144.063,"end":4156.238,"text":"國際漫遊可不可行因為中華電信有這個設備跟能力啊當然費用是一個要考慮的問題費用會比較高那費用如何來做處理或是技術的問題有沒有問題來說明一下"},{"start":4159.901,"end":4170.413,"text":"我們這邊這個問題大概是在平時轉暫時 暫時的這個漫遊部分國內漫遊 國內漫遊 經濟上一定都沒問題那社會部也做過了那個POC的試驗"},{"start":4173.957,"end":4185.843,"text":"對於這個非特殊時期的一些蔓延目前法制上是有這空間那我上禮拜也跟內政部的部長有聯繫過了我們明天就會找內政部跟數位部來開會來協調延伸這塊機制"},{"start":4189.565,"end":4206.293,"text":"跟業者來協調政府各部門之間的協調跟業者協調必須在技術可行而且是合理的費用那相關的經費來源是不是我們也來考慮使用普及服務基金這個部分來相關的支援"},{"start":4207.493,"end":4227.043,"text":"這個在國內漫遊在這樣的一個不管是我們剛才講的臨時的集體台或是行動集體台車或是衛星通信車之外國內漫遊的方式也是來處理一個臨時通訊緊急應用的一個重要的方向來那個次長你說明一下"},{"start":4228.697,"end":4230.339,"text":"根據救災還有緊急動員的法律這些漫遊的費用是必須比如說在動員時期電信管理法裡面有規定"},{"start":4245.979,"end":4269.865,"text":"這些費用衍生的費用必須由國家來負擔那能不能用普及基金來處理的這個我們會回去討論因為普及基金本身是業者的錢那我們也必須回去盤點這個法律就是說在普及基金裡面的條例裡面有沒有能不能處理漫遊那目前在平時的漫遊是用商業機制來處理那救災的時候能不能用"},{"start":4271.805,"end":4286.996,"text":"行政命令跟政府的錢來處理這個我們會回去研議要盡快的提出相關對應的政策那我在這邊再提醒兩位極端氣候的肆虐這種強台豪雨的侵襲"},{"start":4288.818,"end":4316.978,"text":"會越來越常見那對於國人生命財產的保障我講過不管是電力飲食還有通訊的一個基本的暢通都是我們政府最重要的基本責任那我們也希望你們盡快的針對相關的行動基地台車衛星通訊車以及臨時基地台的建置的能力以及相關的數量以及相關的漫遊的這個部分"},{"start":4317.859,"end":4333.988,"text":"政策的一個推動跟執行我們都希望再看到具體的這樣的一個目標跟成績出來很努力好謝謝李昆哲委員的執行現在請廖先祥委員執行"},{"start":4346.932,"end":4352.456,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 麻煩我們請NCC我們陳代理主委好 陳主委"},{"start":4360.831,"end":4378.31,"text":"好 主委好 原則上在這個新聞媒體自由這一塊我們是非常 原則上我們是非常尊重言論自由的嘛 對不對所以說我們對於這個相當的媒體的一些製作 只要沒有太違背事實的情況下我們都原則上不會干預嘛 原則上是這樣子嘛"},{"start":4379.332,"end":4400.214,"text":"但是在做任何的評論之前應該都是基於客觀的事實然後才有評論那當然評論的部分就是尊重言論自由但是前端的客觀的事實如果在相關的報導在前端的客觀的事實有刻意扭曲或者是不實的一些消息的話那原則上我們的在通常會的立場會是怎麼樣"},{"start":4402.399,"end":4426.809,"text":"陳議員剛剛所提到的這部分是我們是尊重業者的編輯自由言論自由但是如果說有民眾陳情申訴的話我們會調出他們的節目帶來看然後確定是有這疑慮的話我們會請業者來陳述意見那如果涉及違反事實查證部分也會請他業者提他們自己的輪委會來開會討論"},{"start":4429.85,"end":4445.687,"text":"然後這個數據業者層次意見跟他假設有人文會的開完會議的資料給NCC之後我們會再研議然後提我們的節目廣告諮詢委員會然後再會上我們的委員會來處理好沒問題反正我們就有一個檢討的機制在對好那"},{"start":4447.569,"end":4452.933,"text":"我想這個不知道的這個主委在我們可能726之前那還是民調可以發布的時候其實在針對各個罷免案的時候大概只有一家電視台有針對個別的選區去做民調的發布原則上我記得只有一家不知道的主委有沒有看過"},{"start":4467.064,"end":4478.719,"text":"這部分我們沒有特別留意但是因為這部分是我們有告訴業者這邊的要相關的中選會相關的選舉報名法那邊是必須要遵守的"},{"start":4479.363,"end":4496.738,"text":"因為那一家電視台他在發布的一個民調的結果跟選後這個實際的開票的結果有非常大的一個落差那這個就可能牽扯到他在因為民調是一個客觀的一個數據嘛那所以我剛剛才請教主委在如果說電視台提供一個"},{"start":4497.819,"end":4514.024,"text":"一個客觀的基本的事實如果與事實有出入的情況下那我們相關的檢討的機制那當然不代表說他選前兩個禮拜前做的民調跟選舉結果有落差那一定是假的有三種可能嘛第一種可能就是可能民調在設計上面他可能本來就有一點問題導致了民意的普查出現了落差"},{"start":4519.986,"end":4525.33,"text":"那第二個就是民調做完了之後到選舉這段時間國內的政治的情勢發生很大的變化導致那個時候的民調的參考跟現在那個選舉的結果沒有辦法吻合那第三種情況那當然就是他們蓄意在民調上面去做一些操弄然後可能來"},{"start":4538.98,"end":4555.82,"text":"散布一些不是那麼準確的一個民調然後可能企圖有一些政治的一個目的來影響選舉的一個結果那我本人擔心的就是第三項那一些媒體自由他假借了這個言論自由的一個方式但是他如果說引述的是一些"},{"start":4556.857,"end":4570.265,"text":"不是事實的一些數據企圖來做一些政治上面的影響我覺得這已經違反到了新聞自由的一個範疇了它已經有藉由這個新聞媒體自由的這個權利來影響我們國內的政治的一個情況了那針對這樣的情況我不曉得主委有辦法去調查這樣的情況說他們當初所做的民調到底是他們捏造出來的還是說他們有實際上去委託民調公司去做出來的一個結果我們有辦法去做這樣的一個"},{"start":4587.395,"end":4604.739,"text":"就是去確認他所報導的一個基本的客觀事實到底有沒有那個事實存在現任委員剛剛跟委員報告的那因為我們是尊重現任自由的所言絕對不會有事前審查然後是事後事後如果一般民眾有檢舉有申訴的話我們會請會啟動這個程序這個機制都請業者來就都陳情意見請業者來意見陳述"},{"start":4612.981,"end":4619.589,"text":"那如果是涉及到違反事實查證的部分如果是新聞台會請他們提他們的新聞的委員會來開會來討論結果之後或許才會進到我們的第三個步驟進入NCC的節目廣告諮詢委員會議再來是最後一個步驟NCC的委員會議來處理"},{"start":4632.182,"end":4652.087,"text":"好 那後續我再提供一些資料我就不針對他們評論的部分去做任何的一個檢舉就是剛剛 陳儒剛剛講的這屬於可能言論自由的範疇我非常的尊重但是他們引述的資料這部分我就有高度的一個懷疑到底是不是他們捏造或者是真的有去做相關的民調我在會後再請主委你們再做後續的一些會後調查"},{"start":4652.887,"end":4680.953,"text":"那另外一個就是開票啦這個台灣看開票這個每一家電視台落差都很大啦那甚至有一些電視台開票的結果開一開還會倒退嚕我想有時候其實我們能夠理解啦就是電視台有每個電視台他想要獲取的一個受眾他也有競爭的一個壓力他必須要可能要有一些符合他觀眾期待一些開票的結果但是倒退嚕這個東西實在是太扯了啦那個得票出來會倒退嚕那這部分"},{"start":4681.714,"end":4683.128,"text":"主委應該也略有所聞吧"},{"start":4684.516,"end":4713.475,"text":"是的跟委員報告每次開票每次選舉我們大概會前就選舉前都會跟電視業者來跟傳播業者來行政指導說你們的開票結果要符合三個條件第一個要有事實依據第二個要有所本你的報票你的體系來源是自己報了還是怎麼樣第三個是可供查證那我們事後發現一些異樣的時候有一些電視台每次都"},{"start":4714.055,"end":4734.091,"text":"都會有這個報的比其他人快然後到最後倒退入的這種情況我們有沒有曾經有沒有曾經去含尋過或詢問過他的一些報票的一些可能流程是怎麼樣或者是去問一些工作人員到底有沒有長官的收益啊還是怎麼樣的情況怎麼會發現這樣子一個每次的常態性的慣犯的落差"},{"start":4734.727,"end":4748.478,"text":"是跟委員報告有過往也確實發生過我們也根據剛剛跟委員報告三個原則有所本可供查證我們請業者來說明為什麼您的票數您統計的票數跟後來為什麼會有這種"},{"start":4750.439,"end":4766.348,"text":"特別的情況那他們都會有一個告訴我們他情況是可能是他們自己爆票體系的一些最後上的一些的結果造成的那最終他們大概都會說他們最終會從他們自己的爆票系統"},{"start":4767.651,"end":4783.871,"text":"所以起到他們那個中選會的泡泡系統我們也不好幾次的不次的提醒他們這一部分一定要注意那我們除了提醒之外我們有沒有任何的一個主管機關可以做的作為希望我們電視台提供正確的資訊給我們所有的一個這個收聽收看電視節目的觀眾"},{"start":4785.787,"end":4812.524,"text":"這一部分開票這一塊其實我們跟中選會有密切合作我們也曾經把相關的案件也移給中選會來做處理那他們中選會依據他們的這個好像是一把零幾條意圖意圖叭叭叭這個造成這個選舉結果獲得投票結果有請他們來處理那先前中選會有告訴我們說如果電視台的開票作業開票數不符合40名這一塊目前"},{"start":4812.904,"end":4838.563,"text":"那中選會的一些相關的法律 目前是目前還沒有相關的法治我們NCC這部分就是我們NCC一定是希望所有的電視媒體提供正確的一個資訊給民眾嘛那開票是一個很明確的一個不會有不一樣的情況嘛那倒退路很明確的就是有一些異樣在裡面嘛我們將來怎麼樣有一些實質的作為讓這些異樣盡量的減少出現或者是在特定的一個頻道業者"},{"start":4840.325,"end":4854.18,"text":"可能常出現這樣的情況我們不要說他去提供假訊息至少他不是假訊息的情況下他在內部作業很明確的可能就會有一些錯誤的地方才會有這樣的情況那是不是請這些電子產業的怎麼樣來檢討他們內部的作業舒適怎麼每次都會有這樣的情況"},{"start":4858.826,"end":4884.004,"text":"是 那只要有民眾申訴或陳情我們都會找他們來 叫他們來表達意見那我們也會同案性的在每次選舉前也會找他們來開會來跟他行政指導說哪些過往發生過的異樣情況我希望還是有一課則這個電視節目才會因為我們不涉獵到他們的言論自由我們只是要求希望他提供正確的客觀資訊我想這是每個電視台最基本的一個責任"},{"start":4884.804,"end":4890.482,"text":"那如果說他們沒有辦法做到的話我也希望主管機關要有你們的擔當以行政相關的一些懲處要給這些業者"},{"start":4892.188,"end":4918.101,"text":"是 我們會依法來依規定來 法規來辦理好 另外這個回到今天的這個主題我簡單請教一下就好了我們目前因為就是災害來我們就是在其實也是在它是一個災害但是同時也可以來檢視一下我們過去這段時間來做一些這個網路任性的一些檢討對不對那我們目前依靠低軌衛星或是說衛星通訊所能夠做的最大量的這個頻寬"},{"start":4921.503,"end":4941.215,"text":"大概是多大這部分大概說不更清楚那地軌衛星的頻寬一定比中軌高軌或者同步衛星要好那但是因為目前在台灣的這個相關在災情期間如果統一統假設統一在某個地方來使用的話那他的那會使用的一些分散的效果會造成使用頻寬會稍微縮一點一點"},{"start":4942.756,"end":4955.742,"text":"所以現在很明確就是當然實際的數字我們不知道但是就是目前就災區的範圍來看其實我們國內的一個衛星通訊的一個能量甚至連現在災區的所需要的一個頻寬可能都還負荷不了"},{"start":4960.263,"end":4983.358,"text":"第一軌衛星它的規格是目前我們配備的規格是Download是100然後Upload是40那這一次在災區28台通通都出動的情況下我們量測出來的數據是Download是60然後Upload大概是20"},{"start":4984.258,"end":4985.862,"text":"所以實際上去分享給每一個民眾的話原則上你們會限流對不對"},{"start":4991.055,"end":5016.717,"text":"沒有,因為衛星它是把一個大區域當成一個我知道每一個使用者你們就誰先用誰先占了就占了這樣子就是目前看起來我們現在使用量是在現在這個數目是OK的可是如果當你的車子或者是衛星接收器增加到數千個的時候有可能沒辦法分攤到這麼大量"},{"start":5018.499,"end":5033.491,"text":"我只想提醒就是我們國家過去投注了這麼多資源在網路任性上面結果現在目前就是到了一個檢驗的一個階段的時候那我相信相對於台北或者是人口密集區這次災區它可能受影響的用戶數相對起來是較少的在全國這個全體的比例來看是較少的"},{"start":5037.014,"end":5055.785,"text":"但是我們現在投入那麼大的量能下來之後卻連這樣子的一個傳輸能力都沒有辦法可能符合大家的需求那就希望大家再繼續努力啦好不好以上 謝謝好 謝謝廖宣祥委員的執行現在請蔡其昌副院長執行"},{"start":5065.193,"end":5069.275,"text":"這個南部這種風跟雨的確對南部的鄉親造成很大的傷害"},{"start":5092.503,"end":5109.299,"text":"那在傷害當中我想跟今天比較有關的其實就是我們的相關的通訊我想這個這次風災當然現在看起來氣象局說這兩天雨勢會小會停那"},{"start":5113.484,"end":5127.376,"text":"災後的這些復健工作也很重要那藉這個機會其實也是台灣對於通訊韌性的一個非常好的檢驗那請問董事長現在還有中華電信的用戶"},{"start":5130.89,"end":5151.862,"text":"視化跟我們的這個手機還有用戶無法使用嗎報告委員 這個行動電話與中華電信現在是通的啦那可能有一些地方的訊號微弱一些 因為還有35台因為鐵塔倒掉 需要一點時間 但是coverage是ok的 但視化"},{"start":5152.942,"end":5176.912,"text":"釋化因為那個光化交接箱有1800個壞掉這個在骨幹網路我們都修好了但是到家裡的這個部分目前一天派工可以修到三五百戶那現在應該以本來到今天為止應該還有1000多戶但是因為這兩天又淹水了所以有增加所以目前應該還有3000多戶釋化代修"},{"start":5177.752,"end":5206.882,"text":"OK 這個大概預估我們如果這兩天雨是挺的前提底下大概幾天內會讓市化修復完畢如果天氣好我們一天可以修500到1000戶所以一週左右對 如果是天氣好的話因為如果你又下雨又什麼就會阻礙這個修的部分那這部分我們已經除了台南加油我們也從各縣市調工班加速把這個市化能夠趕快搶修完成"},{"start":5207.281,"end":5217.136,"text":"那基地台損毀的部分你剛剛說有幾個基地台35台那35台被損毀影響的用戶大概多少"},{"start":5219.046,"end":5239.855,"text":"35台基本上因為我們用其他台調他的角度所以影響的用戶現在訊號都會通只是比較弱比較弱就不會降速啦 簡單講應該是速度變慢那大概有多少範圍估算一下大約有多少用戶可能會受到影響"},{"start":5241.734,"end":5269.309,"text":"就是簡單講就是說你一般你的記憶台大概平均一天的用戶跟這台記憶台連結的大概有多少是因為以台南嘉義大概三千台啦那有影響的應該也是幾百戶會啦因為比較偏的地方會啦會影響就是譬如說我覺得影響最大的可能是固定用他的手機固定用這幾個台做連結的這些用戶是是是那"},{"start":5270.33,"end":5290.326,"text":"中華電信有沒有考量說對於這些固定在這附近機器台因為他簡單講他繳了很多的錢譬如說他是繳5G然後量多大譬如說吃到飽結果現在因為這段時間我們沒有辦法達成當時這個契約的約定那你有沒有考量說要減免或者是什麼"},{"start":5291.055,"end":5315.969,"text":"有這個只要通訊有受准我們就會自動減免因為有這些規定啦我覺得這應該啦是是是這最基本的嘛那個受傷繳這個錢然後又不能夠達到當時的要求所以應該要適度的給予一些補償對對那另外也NCC跟電競協會協調我們目前也推出這兩個月六百分鐘"},{"start":5319.009,"end":5328.448,"text":"國內行動打電話語音免費主委其他電信受影響的狀況你有沒有掌握"},{"start":5329.14,"end":5355.287,"text":"有那剛剛董事長提到說這個臨時基站有30多處那其實三家有些供購有些沒有供購大概總共都臨時基站大概四五十處所那這種情況也是另外兩家也是用其他已經修好的基地台調整天線角度來彌補它的涵蓋率那這種情況之下就誠如委員所提到的那影響用戶跟他在地"},{"start":5356.56,"end":5371.71,"text":"那個有關係那其實三家基本上都是以就是補的對象都是張丹所在還有那個戶籍所在為主那這種情況之下三家目前都在基本的法尊上面"},{"start":5372.691,"end":5395.945,"text":"依據定型化契約來我們要求他們重寬認定所以NCC都已經要求要減免了好那主委另外我們從這一次的狀況可以來發現當他被斷訊譬如說真的風雨交加最嚴重的時候這些訊號中斷了一段時間那是因為後來中華電信業者開始修復嘛"},{"start":5397.082,"end":5422.756,"text":"那我們的現在的這些行動的裝置就是行動這個基地移動式的基地台這一次有沒有派上用場?報告有但是災情最嚴重的時候移動式的行動車大概只有衛星派得上用場那比較傳統的靠微波靠光纖的都相對沒有辦法派上用場因為他沒有電"},{"start":5423.877,"end":5450.946,"text":"那衛星的這一塊目前能量是還可以再加強因為也是感謝數位部去年補就是補助三家業者每一家十台總共三十台那災害最嚴重的時候幾乎那三十台幾乎都全部拉到原家地區來布建來提供這個通訊涵蓋所以現在我們有三十台裝載這個低軌衛星終端設備的有三十台對那"},{"start":5452.394,"end":5455.964,"text":"速發部有沒有研究過 或人型研究過 到底我們要多少台"},{"start":5458.014,"end":5483.829,"text":"在量能上面跟委員報告就是說我們研究過目前速發部過去的計畫是已經執行了700多台但是這700多台有一部分是給軍警銷有一部分是給國防使用我們手上現在有196台但是因為今年度我們的獎補助款大幅的減少"},{"start":5484.449,"end":5511.975,"text":"所以我在去年買了700多台以後我今年並沒有辦法再增加這個量了那你本來預估應該要買多少台到今年為止如果依照我們去年跟前年所規劃的預算就是在700個計畫驗證完以後應該數量要逐年增加那今年應該要增加到2000台左右所以今年只增加到多少預計2000但實際上因為預算被凍結被刪除今年完全沒有增加"},{"start":5512.495,"end":5539.181,"text":"所以還是700多台對你這700多台是韓警消國防都在內我們手上只有196台那我們手上能夠調動的只有40幾台OK那其他的像這一次就沒有辦法調動還是因為需求量沒有那麼大因為一開始這個30台車是一個驗證計畫那所以剛剛我也在專案報告裡面有提到就是說我們今年會用前瞻預算去補助"},{"start":5539.921,"end":5559.711,"text":"把原來的106台車加上衛星的支架那這也是希望未來再增加衛星的接收器的時候這些車子能夠快速的把衛星接收器安裝上去好 所以簡單講就是說我會希望透過這一次的這個風災"},{"start":5562.837,"end":5587.397,"text":"能夠緊述的將透過這次風災啦 其實它就是一個演習嘛就對南部實施受傷但是對於通信的任性而言它其實就是一個最好的實驗場域嘛那所以以這一次來看明顯是沒有辦法在很短的時間內達成這樣的目標嘛就簡單講就是說我們可能面對對岸的威脅嘛"},{"start":5588.032,"end":5609.628,"text":"那你可能在一個時間內 譬如說遭受飛彈攻擊產生一個區域性的破壞 通訊中斷那這時候我們的衛星的設備就應該移動到那個位置那風雨所造成的現象 這一次來看起來我們還是中斷的時間"},{"start":5611.383,"end":5626.172,"text":"速發部有掌握嗎?我們最多在南部的鄉親中斷了多久是完全沒有訊號是完全沒有辦法對外聯繫的跟委員報告因為這個中斷的數字實在是應變中心這邊有但是這很難去統計因為你有1200多台是中斷的但是我車子進去可能有部分的節點它會恢復那"},{"start":5638.3,"end":5664.478,"text":"那這樣好了 我們發揮作用在多少小時以後因為你數量不夠嘛 所以有些地方你無法到達我們其實是在災害應變中心一成立就進駐了就進駐了 然後因為南部本來有10台那大概在災害應變中心一成立我就已經跟同仁講說要把其他區域30台全部都調到南部去"},{"start":5666.039,"end":5693.326,"text":"所以等於這30台在第一個時間斷訊之後就發揮作用28台28台就發揮作用因為南投跟東部他還是要留一台喔 懂你的意思那不管怎樣他就是第一個時間在28台所可以這個有作用的範圍內他就發揮作用當然東部調過去的他可能需要幾個小時但是從中部跟北部調過去的可能就是2到4小時之內就會到位好 所以部件來講"},{"start":5695.138,"end":5703.432,"text":"兩千多台是預期下一個階段要到達那最終要到達台灣需要多少台你們的預估"},{"start":5707.13,"end":5730.549,"text":"台灣如果是靠單一的衛星兩千多台可能也是不夠所以我們未來的規劃都是一直多元會再引進其他的新系因為同一個新系它的頻寬也是有上限對它有上限它會達到一個規模就沒辦法再增加另外一個就是說台灣的地形其實非常複雜像我們在東部救災的經驗發現有的新系在花東縱谷沒有信號"},{"start":5731.249,"end":5747.815,"text":"有的訊息到了太魯閣就沒有訊號因為衛星的方向有的東西向有的南北向市長這個部件你預計還要多少年可以完成包括多元的部件包括數量上的部件大概要多久可以完成"},{"start":5749.077,"end":5766.115,"text":"我們原來有一個五年的計畫就是針對多重新系本來有一個五年的計畫但是在過去的預算上面都只有通過一年今年是完全沒有預算所以你的預估本來五年可以完成"},{"start":5767.365,"end":5793.361,"text":"我們本來有一個五年大概有兩千多個五年的意思就是說你預估這個計畫實施完大概就可以完成初步的部件完成應該是這樣子好那主委我覺得下半年又到了馬上又要審明年的預算了我想這個我們大家一起努力一下好不好這個昭偉在這裡我很認真在講給他聽因為他要支持啦好不好加油一下謝謝"},{"start":5796.412,"end":5822.089,"text":"好 謝謝蔡介昌副院長的執行現在請喜智傑召委執行謝謝主席 我們先請NCC跟樹化部好 陳代主委還有我們邱正次"},{"start":5830.304,"end":5858.142,"text":"市長好 主委好其實剛才我想我們好幾位同事都提到這件事情就是網路任性的事大家都是就事論事這個當然我們要儘快去改善但是你若想到我們高雄桃園掉下去那輛車子它從道路坍塌到掉下去高深谷"},{"start":5860.339,"end":5889.201,"text":"然後整家人就一輛車子載個五個人全部都掉下去但是你看後面的錄影帶後面錄影帶他爸爸還不知道怎麼爬到上面去還到道路上去求救求救之後他又下去救他的妻子孩子然後這五個人兩個死三個失蹤就都不見了"},{"start":5891.397,"end":5920.099,"text":"你去想到他從山谷爬到道路上去被求救然後被錄影帶照到你去想像那個情景我想每個人都有帶電話啦如果當時他可以電話有通如果當時他可以直接打電話到派出所求救如果派出所接到這個求救"},{"start":5921.212,"end":5922.893,"text":"就快盡快去救他也許這五個人命還在你去想到這個問題你會覺得很難過那到底我們能夠做什麼昨天我也到災區去那跟其邁市長我們也到災區去那"},{"start":5947.674,"end":5974.475,"text":"看看災民的狀況然後我們也送物資去幫助他們你可以想像就是說他們在山裡面在颱風暴雨的時候他們是多麼的無助所以我想這個事情是刻不容緩而不是在等待那當然剛才大家也提到了幾個可以解決的方案"},{"start":5975.772,"end":5988.24,"text":"不管是衛星的備援不管是網路的漫遊等等的有很多的方案那我也看到我們的數化部也做過那個7月4號剛做一個颱風的一個演練7月4號做演練7月6號颱風來了車子掉下去了人跑上來求救但是卻只能無語問昌天"},{"start":6009.366,"end":6033.821,"text":"你們想一想其實這個真的是你想到那一家五口生命全部都不見了你就會覺得說它不是一件事情它不是我們現在在談的一件事情它是攸關的人命而且不只這五個人有多少人在山上需要緊急的搶救那麼的無助通訊不通"},{"start":6038.109,"end":6064.394,"text":"其實我真的是講了實在是很難過啦不過就是說我再強調一下剛剛我聽有不知道是次長還是主委講說這個漫遊我們還要溝通漫遊有商業機制那當然是他的正常時間的機制但是如果是這種救災時刻你說有哪一家電信公司會反對嗎還需要那麼久嗎"},{"start":6066.636,"end":6085.461,"text":"那個中華電信請好 委員那有了議題喔 技術上是可行"},{"start":6086.144,"end":6107.329,"text":"那如果政策要做我們會配合但是我必須有一些提醒就是說我舉一個例本來三條高速公路三個交流道如果萬一有兩個交流道壞掉現在把要上兩個交流道的車通通調到另外一個好的交流道要避免一個問題就是也把"},{"start":6108.069,"end":6117.873,"text":"好多交通道會塞爆結果就變成三條高速公路全部不同的一個風險啦好 這個風險可能要特別考慮高速公路三條 三條交通道是因為有很多的車輛在山區 在颱風在生命垂危之刻沒那麼多人會把這條高速公路塞爆啦"},{"start":6136.462,"end":6151.467,"text":"我們是在救急救難救那些少數的真的是痛苦的災民所以那個時候我跟你講不會塞爆盡快盡速馬上處理啦我不相信這個有這麼困難我相信中華電信一定願意的嘛對不對"},{"start":6152.611,"end":6176.641,"text":"金董事長願意嗎技術上可行 我們會來研究怎麼來通比較不具有風險性的通我們會協助這個相關單位來進行商業機制那個都是小事啦商業機制不是考慮的重點那個主委跟社長有聽到商業機制不是考慮的重點"},{"start":6179.062,"end":6187.384,"text":"所以這個東西其實漫遊的災死的應變漫遊就應該首先就進入了其他的當然衛星啦 你的那個行動車啦這個當然有很多的救援的機制 但是漫遊最快而且坦白講這個要謝謝中華電信事實上我們也知道在越郊區中華電信其實是佈建得比較好啦"},{"start":6209.264,"end":6236.294,"text":"當然其他的電信公司我們可以要求的可以拜託的可以多set的這我們再去努力但是就是說中華電信的確在山區北緣地區是通訊最好的我昨天上山其實就有兩次我自己帶來兩次電話一直是中華電信一直是另外一支電信公司那我平常就是兩次會交錯用我用那個我用了另外一家電信公司就真的是斷訊了"},{"start":6240.014,"end":6268.895,"text":"那還好我有帶兩隻我開另外一次中華電線的用Wi-Fi馬上接上那你想在山中的需要急難救助的或者是那一輛車我相信那輛車他平常都是在山下啦所以他不見得每個人都用中華電線的如果他有手機其他家電信公司如果中華電線當時漫遊可以接通"},{"start":6269.793,"end":6293.486,"text":"我相信他可能不用從山谷一直爬 爬到山上 馬路上去求救他就直接打個電話 我們現在在山谷 可不可以儘快來救我們是 跟我們報告 目前的國際規範打緊急的求救電話是不會漫遊 就直接的通如果當地只有某A公司的訊號通 B公司 C公司都不通即便他用戶是B公司 C公司 他一樣打110 119都會通"},{"start":6296.078,"end":6315.178,"text":"所以他 我不知道他那個狀況啦 我們也不是怪說這個因為沒有通 而他們死亡當然有很多 災死有很多不同的狀況 我們很難去估計啦但是我們多一個生機 就會多一個救命啦"},{"start":6318.223,"end":6341.689,"text":"也許他也不知道啊或者是他打那個拍手的電話那個狀況都很多啦打拍手的電話他不會通嘛所以我們想盡各種可能也就是說其實我在這邊最簡單的要求中華電信辛苦一點就在時間就可以馬上接通漫遊"},{"start":6343.171,"end":6357.461,"text":"然後我們NCC跟我們的書畫部這個就是我們數位任性可以即刻可以做的還要再研究那麼久嗎我們看那個報導通常會甚至於7月31才延伸風災區域啟動漫遊服務的可行性"},{"start":6358.807,"end":6377.437,"text":"跟我們報告是這樣子的我們的作用法電信法實際其實是禁止商業漫遊的那電信管理法之後有留一個空間藉階災防法29條所以但是都沒有操練過那我們會進行趕快開會來看這機制怎麼處理剛剛簡董有提到說其實還有這個"},{"start":6379.818,"end":6394.529,"text":"技術上一定沒問題但是要有一點點時間包括緊急電話跟接通還有通訊監察這一塊都不是說一天兩天可以整理好你知道我們現在山上還在下雨嗎是你知道我們高雄市桃園區現在山上還在下雨嗎還要那麼久嗎拜託你啦好技術上的問題"},{"start":6404.983,"end":6412.847,"text":"法規上的問題 我相信你們都比我更嚴重關於愛是人民的需求的問題 救命的問題 要快甚至你們今天說 我不知道可以怎樣 你們今天說說看 搞不好這個開完後面就可以直接漫遊了 我不知道可不可以有可能我打電話的人就聯絡得到了 現在還有人在山上"},{"start":6431.087,"end":6460.186,"text":"好不好是不是盡快現在馬上可以把漫遊接通就趕快接通可以嗎我們盡快努力但是如果當地如果說有A公司訊號打緊急電話應該都不會是問題那一般的那個聯通號這個漫遊的部分對他不只是緊急電話嘛他在上面心慌他沒有外面的資訊"},{"start":6461.684,"end":6490.358,"text":"他家人在山下想跟他聯絡說到底這個親人還在不在你知道那種心情嗎你就接通就讓他可以聯絡啊我再跟你講一個那個八八風災那個時候我聽了真的很難過八八風災的時候小林村你知道嗎小林村裡面有一對父子在通電話他爸爸在山上他孩子在山下"},{"start":6491.38,"end":6519.626,"text":"他們通電話當中跟他跳進去爸爸說一句嗨啊人就不見了小林村上面那個叫做縣渡山縣渡山從1600公尺瞬間崩塌到剩下600公尺1000公尺的土石整個下去把整個小林村都淹沒他爸爸在跟他講電話他只是在家裡你再去看事後那整片全部都變成"},{"start":6521.499,"end":6548.087,"text":"一個平地整個所有的土石流下去淹沒成平地所有的房子全部都看不到了你知道那種狀況嗎所以我拜託你們就是說人機吉利 人力吉利啦這個事情我認為不是那麼困難盡快完成好不好好 我會努力拜託你們好不好那個都可以嗎中華電信也OK吧"},{"start":6549.758,"end":6555.888,"text":"我相信中華電信 因為他只是 他一定願意啦只是說我們盡快把這個程序問題 技術問題把它處理好"},{"start":6557.446,"end":6582.828,"text":"是跟委員報告我們會來協助NC但是我要特別提醒這個風險要經過驗證啦因為如果我剛才講的情況發生連那個好的也會當掉結果全區都沒有那個區就沒有所以這一步要特別再仔細考慮一下你其實你這樣講我實在是有意見你這個考量我接受啊但是現在我講的喇嘛俠"},{"start":6584.482,"end":6595.145,"text":"桃園 這兩區最嚴重 這兩區上面沒有多少人很多已經下來了 我們底下有收容所那山上還有人沒有下來的你說像台南七股跟嘉義布袋就是說它這個陣營的時候 其實人沒有那麼多你趕緊陣營這兩區才能通你不說我們高雄 你先給南馬車到桃園區先給慢用兩區"},{"start":6615.642,"end":6632.757,"text":"那那個台南旗鼓跟嘉義布袋這兩個你先這樣就好我不是叫你全部都不是全台灣都漫遊啦就是說這個地方最緊急的地方你們可不可以我不知道你們的技術可不可以開放這個局部就可以先讓他漫遊可以成功的"},{"start":6633.657,"end":6661.319,"text":"對 所以我也要報告 這個真的要經過驗證我舉個例子啦 同樣在那個區 它中華電信是40%的服務量我們的設計會到120% 差不多是可以吃50%多現在另外兩家 假設我們另外兩家當了就變100%的人 都會從那個交流道上來那個交流道就會用塞 因為所有人只有那個地方能上來我們送給你聽好不好 因為我們藍芽社跟桃園"},{"start":6664.86,"end":6673.911,"text":"40%用中華電線的還有60%有可能用其他的這60%我可以說現在很多收容已經下來了"},{"start":6677.691,"end":6686.655,"text":"可能下來有1萬所以我假設存超過10%的人你跟齊東漫遊沒問題 真的沒問題那個金董 張維這個建議是刻不容緩的事技巧性的問題私底下去跟他報告能開就開 因為救命比什麼都還好"},{"start":6703.203,"end":6730.762,"text":"當然當然當然另外的方式也可以 有一些其他的方式啦你針對這個要趕快去看報告盡快處理啦 我認為不會塞爆你放心啦因為很多人已經下山了啦還有少數人留在上面啦最怕的就是汙破偏紅連夜雨 人還在裡面還坐著獨居老人或是故意的還是怎樣就是說最怕的那種比較特殊的狀況其實沒那麼多 我跟你保證沒問題啦"},{"start":6733.084,"end":6760.48,"text":"只要你速度快,這個篩報我認為坦白講我用我的客觀的了解現實的狀況我認為沒有問題不會篩報啦盡快啦好不好那我們希望趕快明天就會開會好明天就會開會,其實我是希望你們回我趕快就開會了然後趕快處理了,不要再等到明天了好不好好拜託,真的是拜託你們"},{"start":6762.941,"end":6768.248,"text":"好 謝謝喜智捷召委現在請林敬炫委員執行"},{"start":6776.243,"end":6782.745,"text":"本席要請我們NCC的陳志偉還有我們蘇發部的邱政次還有我們中華電信的簡董事長中華電信簡董事長"},{"start":6795.285,"end":6822.586,"text":"好 這個還沒有執行以前 特別跟大會報告我們陳樹葉委員執行完畢 休息十分鐘陳樹葉委員執行完畢 休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席三位好 台南在7月6號晚上颱風衝上來那是禮拜天晚上 到7月7號禮拜一的早上"},{"start":6824.195,"end":6844.897,"text":"我想一夜之間同時造成的災難恐怕是台灣大概有史以來最嚴重的我稍微統計一下數字這個市化的庫房斷了一萬兩千多戶行動基地台快要一千三百座基地台都壞掉了"},{"start":6845.851,"end":6872.734,"text":"那網路受影響大概有11萬6千戶有線電視斷訊大概3萬8千多戶我在當天早上 7月7號早上我就到災區去了結果我進去 除了沿線看到電線桿倒了一片電線桿大概倒了1600多支所以很多路都不通我在那邊繞路繞半天那你繞路的時候我需要什麼"},{"start":6873.732,"end":6900.082,"text":"我都需要用google map因為鄉間小路就發現完全沒有訊號然後好不容易到達了災區才發現停電停水沒有訊號沒有有線電視這等於資訊孤島這種狀況最嚴重的地方有持續七八天的當然水電還有電訊復原的時間不大一樣"},{"start":6904.741,"end":6928.653,"text":"那災民怎麼辦第一個 他沒辦法生活嘛 那沒水沒電嘛然後他也不知道外面發生什麼事啊他的家人要關心他 電話打不通啊因為鄉下都住老人啊 還是一些孩子啊他們出來年輕人 卡到電話卡 他們要卡出來也卡不出來要不然看一下電視 看外面世界怎麼了有線電視又斷了 又沒電視了"},{"start":6930.919,"end":6956.818,"text":"所以那種恐慌我想就算戰爭都不一定可以造成這麼慘狀所以這也是來檢驗我們國家基礎建設的一個韌性那其中我們今天要來討論電信的問題通訊的問題我在上上禮拜我有開一個記者會跟國共委員我們大概檢討一下做個幾個結論因為你現在斷訊了要趕快恢復訊號"},{"start":6960.126,"end":6985.638,"text":"所以呢 三大電信公司啦就中華電信 台客大還有遠傳啦就開始派一些行動車去啦當然數量最多到災區的是中華電信中華電信好像派了三台衛星行動車好像三台的樣子總共派了17台 有8台有衛星的8台有衛星的啦那就是一般的行動訊號車啦"},{"start":6988.049,"end":7011.27,"text":"但是台客大跟遠傳就沒有了啊遠傳也有各10台衛星的有幾台 尾車有幾台各10台 3加30台拍到災區呢最高峰時期他們遠傳全部拍進去 台客大也全部拍進去後來遠傳燒掉一台那個是衛星的行動車嗎"},{"start":7013.138,"end":7020.962,"text":"衛星的行動車這個是數碼部有補助衛星的行動車數碼部有補助給電競公司來購買補助衛星跟衛星的通訊費通訊車其實我們發現債券是源源不足"},{"start":7032.628,"end":7061.591,"text":"如果像這麼大面積 同時因為行動訊號之後 它的範圍比較小啦有效範圍比較小啦所以你頂多在部落跟部落中間 你大概就不通了啦然後後來啊恢復通訊最快的大概是中國電信了我們才了解到 因為中國電信基礎設施做得比較早先天性也比較強啦所以它的線路都遭被害嘛很多地下纜線啦比較普遍"},{"start":7063.152,"end":7090.485,"text":"其他兩家就不行了中華電信那個台客大跟遠傳啊差不多都在我們家都掛在電話條啦電話條如果倒了喔電話就不會通了啦台客大跟遠傳不會通了啦我不曉得當時他們拿到這個執照喔我了解是沒有強制性但是他們的一個責任應該是要強化一些基礎建設法是不是這樣子我繼續回答一下"},{"start":7091.68,"end":7119.774,"text":"對 有要求他們做 比方說偏鄉建設多少基站 那些都有要求那這次檢驗起來根本沒有他們當初的那個偏鄉的義務大概都有達成都沒有達成 全部都遭頂位調你不用幫他們講話啦是公法部分啦 公法部分沒有特別要求公法部分當然是要點啦 重點啦而且喔 我們那個也沒有要求到他抗災的係數啦所以我在那個記者會我都有提出來啦"},{"start":7121.449,"end":7149.241,"text":"因為這基礎建設差太多了其實三家電線應該都賺錢吧主委都大賺錢啦大賺錢這幾個社會你應該做到要回饋的啊我不是在廣告啊但是我的門號我已經轉到中華電信了我感覺差太多了這緊急時候你要用啊所以最早全面恢復通訊的大概就是中華電信了那我們希望啊"},{"start":7150.171,"end":7164.97,"text":"其他兩家要趕快追上來因為這個有市場競爭的問題啊人家做得到啊 你做不到那你在市場怎麼競爭平常我們不會感受到啦你碰一下電視你講過喔 三間都說他二位都二位對不對三間都說他台灣第一名啦"},{"start":7166.209,"end":7170.092,"text":"真正的災難來檢驗就發現這個基本設施差很多所以我現在在記者會上會請NCC 蘇發部這邊協助可以再繼續補助他們買衛星的行動基地台"},{"start":7184.773,"end":7212.663,"text":"後面有這樣的計畫嗎跟我們報告在今年下半年的第五期前瞻我們已經規劃三家會各增加三台要各增加三台對然後再來就是說他原來的沒有衛星的車子因為剛剛我有說過我們今年並沒有新的衛星但是我們會先把架子裝好那不管再來有新的one wave衛星或其他的衛星都能夠快速的裝到這些車子上面去一台衛星行動車大概多少錢"},{"start":7215.522,"end":7241.025,"text":"車子全部大概要1100萬到1500萬那衛星的部分大概要300萬左右那我們補助多少我們補助49%一半嘛 業者負擔一半嘛這個應該 你要以整個整理台灣來計算這個數量喔我想你整個台灣才10幾台你怎麼算 你現在補助10台嘛你要不要再補助3台"},{"start":7243.193,"end":7264.041,"text":"對這個速度是遠遠不夠但是因為我手上預算就這麼多另外另外我也要求啦希望說他們現在要災後重修嘛你要提高他們基地台的抗災能力什麼抗災能力例如你要抵擋到15級風15級風不斷電系統可以至少撐72小時"},{"start":7270.236,"end":7298.019,"text":"你要有一個數字化的一個管控來 陳主委是的 當然在我們的那個神經辦法空氣型機器台抗風級數15級這個已經在法規已經在實施當中但是更早以前的部分是當時還沒有這個規範所以我現在要求要把它納入法規裡面要求我們業者要做到因為15級風你大概幾十年才會遇到一次"},{"start":7299.562,"end":7308.894,"text":"這個已經非常高的一個標準了再來就是它不斷電的系統還有就是跟一些光藍的 地下染性的這個地下化"},{"start":7310.589,"end":7338.87,"text":"還有一些重要的節點這個我也跟交通部工種談過啦因為當然不是所有的地方都可以地下化因為淹水的地方就不可以啦不然你淹水就淹到路邊了但是比較不淹水的地方就是阻幹線啦應該要走過去所有的省道啦就是工種罐的道路上 台17 台19那個大概雲嘉嵐都有啦 整條山啦那要行走啦那未來我們就提到啦國家"},{"start":7340.389,"end":7365.101,"text":"這個數位安全韌性其實我們剛剛幾個委員也有關心到就所謂災難的漫遊啦我覺得我們相關人士大家要談一下啦我們現在國內還不能不同電信公司之間的漫遊是不是這樣對 商業漫遊原則上是不許的是不行嘛就是說今天三間都壞了那又沒話講"},{"start":7367.689,"end":7393.872,"text":"如果還有一家還可以用那其他就可以過來漫遊有沒有這樣的一個考量有這個空間就是災防法可以借接文電信管理法第22條可以處理這個部分細節部分我想也請我們相關單位大家再來延伸另外一個就是所謂的公共安全和應變的通訊系統這個在美國英國在國外最近都開始建制"},{"start":7396.041,"end":7416.17,"text":"尤其我們在台灣 我們台灣目前的 今天在台灣辦公室有來我們台灣目前的警政 消防 醫療 還有地方政府 都演播同樣的通訊系統 你知道嗎是不是這樣對 他們都用專用電信 都自己的專屬 對所以這個要整合啦"},{"start":7418.129,"end":7438.261,"text":"這個要整合啦 因為你若是在救災 你像這次災難整體救難部隊進來他有各式各樣不同的系統有警政 有消防 有醫療還有各種地方我自己派來的結果他們的通訊都完全不同的系統要收取人 要調度 這個會有問題所以"},{"start":7443.544,"end":7468.635,"text":"還有目前的這些系統雖然第一個他們的系統都不同第二個 他們的系統都是依賴商用網路金融組織都是走電信公司的所以他們如果集體才斷訊我們這裡救災系統就不規範了沒有自己獨立一個所謂的公共安全的一個通訊系統所以美國 現在韓國"},{"start":7471.068,"end":7491.565,"text":"韓國也是一個有安全意識的國家有危機意識的國家 韓國沒有建立自己的PVDR的系統我們台灣沒有 就所謂的公共安全跟救難應變系統這個我也希望相關單位應該盡速來處理啦大家 過去沒有做到啦那我們現在既然要做國家安全任性 一切部分都在考慮裡面"},{"start":7493.984,"end":7518.443,"text":"還有啦 數學部的預算 我知道你今天比較困難啦數學部有一些那個 講補助費啦 總預算被刪了35億8嘛被刪了快40%啦 那這裡面很多就是數位任性講補助費被刪了8億多啦 就是數位任性和資訊安全啦後面的工作都需要這些預算啦"},{"start":7519.807,"end":7545.43,"text":"我們也希望這個在野政黨大家可以以這次的災情來做一個檢驗考量這個是國家所需要的增強安全韌性的基礎建設這個不只是暫時天災來的時候就可以發現沒有這些東西我們其實基礎建設有很大一個落差有南北的落差也有城鄉的落差"},{"start":7547.25,"end":7562.755,"text":"我們希望我們相關單位大家來謝謝委員幫我們說明好我們就謝謝相關單位謝謝三位謝謝主席謝謝林進憲委員的執行現在請洪孟楷委員執行"},{"start":7574.433,"end":7599.794,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請NCC代理主委好 NCC陳主委主要還是丹納斯風災到現在快一個月那到目前很多委員都關心那我想確認一下說三家的電信系統業者的基地台受損跟修復的狀況目前恢復的比例到多少"},{"start":7600.985,"end":7612.807,"text":"以涵蓋來看的話大概都恢復到在前的90%以上90%以上 對但是是什麼時間點因為已經一個月的時間了而且陸陸續續都有好大雨的產生嘛"},{"start":7613.867,"end":7638.793,"text":"對大概是第二週以後就是海澱復電以後大概很快就恢復然後好雨的話又造成部分的一些災損但在這一次的過程裡面大家外界一直質疑是說NCC的速度我們的督促的速度以及說大家掌握通訊的速度甚至在第一個禮拜其實總統就已經有下鄉勘猜啦第一個禮拜總統就已經有跟我們黨籍這個民進黨籍的委員"},{"start":7640.433,"end":7651.652,"text":"到台南去做勘栽那那個時候其實大家都一直有反應通訊還沒有恢復完全我想知道說NCC到底什麼時間點才找三大電信業者來溝通"},{"start":7653.685,"end":7674.206,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在颱風發布海警的時候大概就已經我們的進駐災防中心業者也要設立一些應變小組所以那時候其實都有在協助在互動其實同步都要掌握我們的數據大概都跟業者來同步處理所以應該是說發布海警之後就已經在掌握了"},{"start":7674.386,"end":7691.383,"text":"主委那請教一下NCC因為對外我們一個官方的主要機關的新聞稿或處置的作為方式NCC什麼時候才發布第一則颱風過後第一則正式的新聞稿我印象中好像是七月十幾號"},{"start":7692.543,"end":7716.102,"text":"你在官網上面是7月10幾號嗎要不要再確認一下我只要有個21號7月21號嘛對你的最新公告看NCC的官網只有7月21號所謂的最新消息而且今天的最新消息 本席剛剛稍微對了一下跟今天的專案報告的內容 NCC的內容幾乎大同小異啊"},{"start":7717.165,"end":7739.347,"text":"你7月21號才寫出來的一個最新消息那跟今天提出來的一個數字其實也是一樣就是複製貼上跟你們報告剛才陳律師我剛才講的第二週復健之後大概都是復原的數字大概到90%都已經飽和階段後續都是比較緩慢的如果說真的飽和啦不說實在話啦"},{"start":7742.082,"end":7762.498,"text":"本席剛剛一直聆聽我們很多中南部的委員的發言真的飽和的話今天中南部的委員不會那麼生氣而且那麼的要求NCC做後續的處理這一次讓外界看到就覺得是說NCC身為中央主管機關尤其是三大電信業者你應該要掌握如果說連一個中度颱風"},{"start":7764.188,"end":7771.514,"text":"來到了台灣就可以把我們的所有的這個資訊通訊全部都給摧毀兩個禮拜之後才看到主管機關來發布一個新聞稿"},{"start":7774.075,"end":7798.288,"text":"那這樣子的一個動作跟這樣一個速度是讓國人沒有辦法期待其實我們跟海警知道我們是每個小時都有掌握最新的進度那這樣期間是因為業者有鼓勵都請業者先去救災所以這一部分的新聞稿會比較晚主委很實在啊如果說陳路芬剛剛講的那這樣的話就不會有災民還在總統到現場的時候去告獄狀"},{"start":7799.739,"end":7820.519,"text":"跟總統講說沒有通訊然後讓總統還要回復說郭國文委員的手機可以啊如果說真的如同您剛所講的話那就不會有民進黨的委員開記者會講說電信業者責任在哪裡政府機關的監督機制在哪裡甚至綠委媒體報導都說綠委都憑這是零分的救災"},{"start":7822.267,"end":7842.868,"text":"就是因為我們第一周都是主要的市電都是台電那邊還沒恢復所以造成所以你現在是要推給台電所以現在主要責任是在台電客觀而言其實是扮演很大的角色因為另外兩家的基台很多都是在民間房子那邊蓋的它的電源是靠台電的"},{"start":7844.224,"end":7870.384,"text":"還有另外一個就是電線桿倒掉之後它的後傳網路光先是掛在電力桿上電力桿倒掉2000多根如果加上雲嘉南是3000多根那一塊的也要等力桿恢復之後才能夠比較完整的一些恢復所以其實主委我覺得剛剛非常遺憾今天到我們交通委員會的專案報告都還在互推皮球主委那我再請教一下"},{"start":7871.502,"end":7891.423,"text":"上禮拜你們有提到是說台灣大跟遠傳下週三前可以啟動漫遊服務是不是這是我們要啟動這個協調機制因為在電信法實際是禁止漫遊的電信管理法有個借接災防法的所以我現在確認一下是說到底下週三前能不能啟動漫遊機制漫遊服務"},{"start":7894.092,"end":7912.353,"text":"如果從技術的話是可以但是會有些細節要討論我剛剛大概有跟所以已經過了快一個月的風災來了然後你上禮拜給我們看到媒體報導直接下標豪雨重創中南部通訊NCC說台灣大遠傳下週三前啟動漫遊服務"},{"start":7913.454,"end":7942.116,"text":"就你現在告訴我們是說還要再討論還要再協商基本上想要問的是有沒有一個SOP就未來因應什麼樣的情況我們可以啟動漫遊機制而不用像現在一樣一個月過去了還在那邊召集協商討論細節如果說第一次發生天災而沒有辦法及時跟上那是天災的問題但我們沒有辦法利用這一次的天災而記取教訓來訂立下次的SOP那以後就是人禍"},{"start":7942.941,"end":7944.663,"text":"所以到底所謂的台灣大跟遠傳下週三前啟動漫遊服務這是確定的還是研議中研議中"},{"start":7969.17,"end":7980.853,"text":"什麼時候可以研議好等到颱風過後水退了通訊恢復了這件事情船過水無痕不是 這個機制是是個turn on的可以為未來來適用我期待啊我期待就是要訂立一個SOP這個是本席本來提出這個問題啊但是我現在聽到的是連研議中都還在討論已經過了快一個月的時間了今天來到交通委員會"},{"start":7998.107,"end":8008.731,"text":"結果你準備的這個回答還是這個樣子因為新年是以救災為主那當時的是以行動車 電機台來處理不要再勤勒了好不好"},{"start":8010.097,"end":8030.136,"text":"我們每一個人都關心救災每一個人都關心災情這一次北部的災情相對比較減弱但我們看到南部的災情我們一樣感到痛心但不是所有回答今天準備不足 準備不夠甚至現在還在研議中就一句話說我們都關心救災就可以把它推掉嗎該是誰的責任就是誰的責任"},{"start":8032.912,"end":8051.588,"text":"不是每一次都是來情熱我覺得民進黨政府現在最大的問題就是所有事情只要面對到你沒有辦法回答的時候就用情熱國防就說我們關心國防啊所以你只要問多問一點就是國安探索國安機密然後你只要預算不過就是你不關心災區"},{"start":8054.57,"end":8064.052,"text":"現在一個月了今天跟你講是說我都很客氣的講因為我剛看了這一份報告就跟7月21號你們的新聞稿就是幾乎一樣"},{"start":8065.799,"end":8085.195,"text":"甚至你新聞稿上面我都不好意思講你新聞稿上面寫是說你們出動53台的基地台基地行動車結果現在最高峰那你今天報告寫什麼43台你連這個數字你都對不上沒有那是最高峰時期曾經出動那後來因為來來來那你今天的這個"},{"start":8087.762,"end":8098.626,"text":"我都不好意思吐槽你你今天的報告就是單日最高43台那你的新聞稿你的7月21號新聞稿上面寫53台連這個都可以凹就對了主委"},{"start":8108.982,"end":8124.889,"text":"新聞稿的內容跟今天的報告今天報告已經比新聞稿721晚了兩個禮拜出來照理講今天的報告會比新聞台7月21號新聞稿更加的嚴謹但我講數字的部分以及這裡面80% 90%都是複製貼上"},{"start":8128.53,"end":8143.1,"text":"我們要看的不是今天你只是來鎮定宣導我們要看到是你到底怎麼樣因應這次7月6號這個風災之後然後來給未來更多中南部以及我們全台灣可能各地都有發生這樣通訊的狀況"},{"start":8144.941,"end":8168.211,"text":"NCC有提出比較超前的方向未來可能因應到這種狀況基地台有沒有辦法運作或者甚至你講就是說電感如果說真的因為這樣子倒塌而我們怎麼樣有一個SOP當倒塌幾根或是範圍涵蓋多少或者是有多少人受影響的時候三大業者可以啟動漫遊服務這是一個SOP這是一個客專數字"},{"start":8170.047,"end":8197,"text":"這樣子就不用說未來在因為一開始的時候媒體沒有報導或是一開始的時候大家只想著說怎麼樣下去擺拍我們看到照片誰卡誰的頭誰卡誰的臉不是啊 災民的生活才是真真正正最需要的啊那只有你今天告訴我們說都還在研議中漫遊服務什麼都還在研議中然後現在只是一直在爭是說一直在勤勒"},{"start":8198.885,"end":8205.445,"text":"我們會細心檢討 謝謝委員最後我最後請教一下抱歉 稍微一分鐘的時間"},{"start":8207.247,"end":8228.862,"text":"NCC委員名單我想本席也一直在關心7月31號我也看了因為去年的731就是當時四位委員到期日所以整整一年了直到今年的731行政院才真的千呼萬喚使出來把名單送出來名單看秀出來有沒有送到立法院我們現在還不確定"},{"start":8230.487,"end":8259.333,"text":"但是上面馬上被人家抓包是說五月的時候其實就已經有確定這個名單了所以過去這兩個月的時間壓著請教代理主委知情嗎因為這份權責不在NCC這邊這邊我並不清楚所以過去我也問過你一樣問題行政院長有沒有找你溝通找你詢問過NCC的業務有沒有停擺或說NCC能不能現在不過半的委員能不能運作也都沒有跟你諮詢過"},{"start":8260.804,"end":8287.688,"text":"有問過但是提名部分沒有講什麼事情沒有講委員提名部分沒有提那委員他的進度是什麼那個時候問過你問你的時候然後你有沒有跟他回應是說那你有沒有試著請教一下說那長官全責在你那你的委員提名人選進度是什麼我沒有選體系來反映過然後咧反映結果咧已讀不回"},{"start":8289.48,"end":8315.909,"text":"直到7月31號所以你也不知道那個名單嗎你也是跟我們大家都一樣都是看到行政院7月31號的時候你才知道說原來有四位委員是那你也是看到那一天送出來的名單之後才知道說原來五月的時候這四位委員已經徵詢了我想我的了解程度大概跟委員一樣情何以堪啊"},{"start":8318.92,"end":8343.713,"text":"帶領主委本集還是最後一句話忠告大家人在公門好休息我們都一樣是要為中華民國國民做事為台灣2350萬人做事再為一天就要把一天的責任給做好災民的痛苦以及NCC所有業務不是說用這種話術或是說配合現在執政黨帶風向就可以帶過"},{"start":8345.031,"end":8361.044,"text":"NCC一開始跟我們講iPhone可能沒有辦法上市Switch可能沒有辦法上市如今一一都被打臉那過去一整年四位NCC委員都選缺的情況下你到底要講是說是留下你們這三位"},{"start":8361.889,"end":8380.583,"text":"很認真還是根本NCC只要三位就夠根本包括那個攝影器殘是因為我們在去年7月31號以前有修改的這個這個你們有講過了但是你們在一開始的時候就已經一直一而再再而三地一直在說謊講說這樣子有可能iPhone跟Switch就沒有辦法上市這也是之後你們才講出來的謊說實在話"},{"start":8388.416,"end":8415.195,"text":"主委是最後請教你的所謂的漫遊的這個機制什麼時候可以送出來什麼時候可以讓國人知道確定未來當發生任何情況的話可以啟動所謂的漫遊機制剛才包括因為這塊涉及到相關部會我會儘快因為明天就會開會明天開會對最快什麼時候因為這一次的災民到底用不用得到啦我這樣講還是你想要拖過這一次"},{"start":8416.782,"end":8443.681,"text":"有可能用 但是要看這個相關部會那如果說要用的話 你萬事莫如舊火 你就應該要盡速的訂立各業者有什麼樣的一個因應拿出來甚至我剛剛講的受災超過多少人 用戶影響多少人的時候 就可以啟動漫遊機制對 我委員講的這個SOP就是我們開會的重點之一那什麼時候可以訂出來我們看明天開會的結果我們盡快"},{"start":8447.355,"end":8462.014,"text":"不要讓我們這一次的災民用不到不要讓大家覺得說你們是在虛隱故事不要讓大家覺得你們只是在應付了事我們是最起碼要建立未來通案的一些SOP謝謝"},{"start":8464.507,"end":8489.746,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的執行特別跟陳主委建議因為現在技術性的問題沒有問題但是法規確實是有待去商討但是不要忘了洪委員他在乎的就是受災的老百姓的這些通信的權利救災"},{"start":8491.067,"end":8499.994,"text":"跟救命是完全一樣所以我要拜託主委你已經答應說今天要開會那現在就是認證的問題嘛漫遊技術沒有問題就是法規認證的問題所以這個應該要針對這個問題因為其實你在這段代理時間的表現是針對問題來解決問題"},{"start":8515.347,"end":8533.723,"text":"我個人的認為你較為沒有什麼政治性的這些決策是還算蠻稱職的一個代理的主委我說我要拜託 洪委員他建議這些還有所有委員的這個建議要盡快 刻不容緩 趕快漫遊技術沒有問題 是法規的問題"},{"start":8536.906,"end":8557.566,"text":"那如何去做就請求行政院來協調來跨部會協調這個問題應該很快就解決啦因為每一個委員在乎的是這個啦好不好 主委好 接下來陳樹業委員執行但是陳樹業委員執行完畢休息十分鐘現在請陳樹業委員執行"},{"start":8564.545,"end":8572.182,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請邱市長還有邱事務部邱政事還有我們陳代主委"},{"start":8579.723,"end":8598.901,"text":"市長還有代理主委早安那我們今天委員會就是針對丹納斯颱風造成的這個通訊中斷以及整個復原或者是災後這個通訊搶救的這個機制來進行這個詢問我們也知道這一次的丹納斯颱風真的也是很少見的一次從"},{"start":8600.282,"end":8619.229,"text":"這個西部尤其是從嘉義這邊登陸那完全沒有像說從東部的話還有中央山脈的屏障那從西部是完全沒有啦所以這樣子所造成的災害真的是特別的大尤其這次的風速也高達有到16級以上的這個強風所以這次不管是這個電力設施電線桿倒了一片那我們的這個通訊"},{"start":8626.372,"end":8643.402,"text":"基地台也倒了1293座的这个电信基地台所以造成很多的用户包括固网有高达1.2万的用户那行动电话网路有11.6万余户的这个用户受到了这个影响所以这个对于"},{"start":8644.442,"end":8665.401,"text":"災民要求救也好或者是我們要去救災也好就是會受到很大的影響所以這個真的是非常的重要尤其在這期間我們還要遇到這個豪大雨所以對整個這個救災的這個通訊的需求真的非常的重要所以在這個恢復通訊的部分我們還是希望NCC跟數碼部這邊要"},{"start":8666.742,"end":8688.479,"text":"加緊這個就是相關的一些措施那我們來看一下就是說這一次的一個風災也看出了我們很多地方真的還需要再加強就是這個數位韌性或這個基礎設施的部分都還要再加緊這個強化的一個部分那我們來檢討一下就是說"},{"start":8690.32,"end":8707.891,"text":"對於這個災史不管是天災也好或者是戰爭如果說一旦發生了造成這個通訊中斷的時候我們可以因應的緊急的處置方式我們可以看到大概就是目前是三種我不知道還有沒有其他的等一下是不是再請次長補充就是包括低軌衛星還有這個國內的漫遊"},{"start":8710.493,"end":8723.794,"text":"還有高空的通訊平台這三種方式那我先請教一下就是次長就是說這幾種方式在這次的丹納斯風災是否有發揮功能發揮了什麼功能是不是可以簡單說一下"},{"start":8725.559,"end":8746.338,"text":"跟委員報告在低軌衛星的部分我們現在三家電信業者各有10台的低軌衛星的行動基地台那這10台行動基地台除了一台留在南投一台留在東部以外28台全部投入災區去做支援"},{"start":8747.239,"end":8770.929,"text":"那所以實測的結果我們原來也擔心說28台都在同一個地區那根據它的設計頻寬可能會有下降但是目前測試出來的結果它的4G、5G那包含Line跟影音都是順暢的那所以以目前有限的資源在這次的救災是有盡全力的發揮作用"},{"start":8772.049,"end":8791.458,"text":"但是28台並沒有辦法去補1296台 這個是先天上的限制我們也看到過去速發部在全國配置了700套的低軌衛星設備的部件所以我們有補助電信業者建置的30輛低軌衛星車 剛剛次長有提到"},{"start":8795.06,"end":8813.637,"text":"那當然在這一次不管是去年的0403的這個地震去花蓮支援或者是這一次的風災確實是有發揮實質的一個成效可是我們看起來這個建置的數量仍然是不足的所以未來我們就是蘇花部這邊是不是會持續來補助業者進行這個低軌衛星車的建置"},{"start":8818.935,"end":8829.943,"text":"跟委員報告我在0403的時候我們得到的教訓就是每個區域一定要有因為0403那時候我只有一台車那我的車到花蓮花了8小時"},{"start":8831.127,"end":8852.188,"text":"那所以記取0403的教訓所以我們今年在根據這個消防署在災害應變中心對全國的分區所以我每一區有每一區各有一定數量的車那基本上的設計就是說當小規模的災害發生的時候每一個地方一個小時之內都會有應變車可以到"},{"start":8855.031,"end":8870.264,"text":"那但是針對這個大規模的災害的確是個位數或死位數的車是沒有辦法解決大規模的災害所以大規模的災害除了衛星以外應該還要有顧網跟其他的機制來協助來處理"},{"start":8873.726,"end":8895.496,"text":"剛剛次長回答的都是低軌衛星的部分那有關高空平台通訊平台以及國內漫遊這個部分是不是也可以請次長說一下那有關高空平台的部分我們原來有一支計畫在研究高空通訊的平台那去年也在台東有做示範後來因為風太大沒有測試成功"},{"start":8896.275,"end":8915.724,"text":"他其實之前試驗的時候是成功的正好當天風比較大是 之後就沒有再測試因為那一支預算今年被刪除但是我們還是會持續在研究這個平台因為高空平台在未來六七是一個重要的重要的通訊規格之一"},{"start":8916.56,"end":8933.379,"text":"對是所以我們也真的是很遺憾就是高通訊平台我們在今年度有編了5220萬的經費結果被刪掉六成所以剩下這一點經費我覺得真的對我們要推動這樣子的一個功能真的是"},{"start":8934.5,"end":8950.997,"text":"可以說是捉襟見肘可能比較難施展所以我們也希望就是說未來不管是如果說有提出特別預算還是追加預算的時候我們也希望在野黨能夠支持再來有關國內漫遊的部分是不是請施展來說一下"},{"start":8952.523,"end":8978.043,"text":"國內漫遊的部分去年我們有一支計畫去做功能性的驗證那也在921的防災演習中有去演練那所以這個在技術上是沒有問題的那但是這個災難漫遊的權責跟法規那誠如剛剛NCC主委有提到那還有一些問題要解決那當然技術性的驗證當它規模擴大到全國"},{"start":8981.425,"end":9000.337,"text":"那會有其他的障礙但是如果是小規模的災區那也必須盤點到底哪些門號是要進入漫遊那這個這個需要繼續再討論那今年度的預算本來我們今年度有編一個幾千一千多萬的預算要繼續持續做演練但是那個部分的預算也被刪除了"},{"start":9000.879,"end":9023.394,"text":"是好這個也是令人遺憾那我們也看到了就是剛剛次長提到這一份報告的結論裡面確實有提到就是說在電信管理法裡面對於就是提供國內的這個漫遊的服務並沒有強制性所以未來這個部分是不是我們ANCC也要有積極的作為進行法規的一個修正"},{"start":9024.065,"end":9040.093,"text":"是跟我們報告其實法規不用修正就是因為我們現在是電信管理法第22條是借接源頭端下指令端的災防法那邊其實是有個橋接有借接的方式那我們明天就會找這個消防署來開會"},{"start":9042.667,"end":9069.248,"text":"確實這次有關這個漫遊的部分我們覺得真的速度是有比較慢的因為七月初發生風災一直到現在也已經一個月的時間了所以這個部分當然就是說我們也希望能夠記取教訓然後能夠在積極不管是法規面或者是技術面或者是業者之間的一個協調的部分我們希望NCC能夠要負起全責然後加緊這個腳步這樣好不好"},{"start":9069.668,"end":9098.276,"text":"是那跟我們報告因為這一塊在電信法時期漫遊國內漫遊其實是禁止的那所以也有相關業者因為漫遊被我們連續罰那這一塊在電信管理法是留一個空間來借機災防法那邊來處理那但是因為涉及到它本質上如果是商業間會涉及到一些商業間跟公平議題那這邊我們會一併來注意明天開會會也會找這個相關機關不管是消防署內政部消防署或者數位部門都會一起來討論"},{"start":9099.372,"end":9117.76,"text":"是好因為我們看到這個真的是天災難測所以我們也希望就是說我們在各項的這個設施就是數位的這個潤性的一個設施上我們真的要做好強化跟準備這樣才能夠降低災害因為一旦這個災害發生我想受害的就是老百姓"},{"start":9118.36,"end":9129.212,"text":"所以這個強化數位韌性真的很重要所以我們在這邊也是要再次的呼籲在野黨要共同支持預算因為在去年度在審查總預算的時候在速發部整個預算真的是被刪了高達六成我覺得這對我們整個強化數位韌性真的是很大的一個傷害"},{"start":9137.981,"end":9148.468,"text":"那最後我還有一個問題要請教就是這次的風災造成了這個通訊中斷那有的甚至到目前都還沒有辦法恢復通訊那有關這個補償的部分我們NCC是不是應該要主動來要求業者來"},{"start":9156.913,"end":9172.229,"text":"做處理不要讓災民自己再來就是申請那這是一部分還有一個部分就是在7月31號這個中華電信他還是無預警的斷訊了三個小時那這個我也收到了鄉親的一個陳情因為在斷訊之後有的"},{"start":9178.595,"end":9195.072,"text":"這個鄉親他說他昨天還收到中華電信的簡訊通知說如果收不到訊號或者是沒有收到電話就是重新開機或者是關這個啟動飛航模式之後再取消之後就可以恢復通訊"},{"start":9196.333,"end":9214.674,"text":"這個都太慢了 所以也造成了一些用戶的一些損失包括我們也看到有關這個醫院 醫護人員 醫師或者是護理師有反映說這個危及到整個醫院的這個就是在搶救病人要找醫師的這個狀況 這個真的是非常的危急"},{"start":9217.717,"end":9240.172,"text":"那也甚至也有鄉親我也接到一個鄉親反映說他沒有接到郵局的通知導致他有一個支票漏死掉就是跳票了所以這個損失就是人民就是會遇到這些狀況所以對於這個斷訊的補償就是不管是風災造成的或者是中華電信那天吳裕景的斷訊的一個損失我們這邊NCC會怎麼處置"},{"start":9244.395,"end":9261.101,"text":"是跟我們報告大概分幾個區塊第一個就是類法尊的部分就是我們有地基業者不管哪一家不管是天災還是自己的那個操作疏失造成的斷訊都必須要依據地形化契約的規定來抵減他的月租費"},{"start":9264.662,"end":9285.629,"text":"那這一塊是法尊的算是類法尊的部分我們都請封災的部分我們已經請三家業者要從寬認定那另外業者在封災期間還有主動提出主動關懷的一些措施比方說換卡免費啊還有送一些相關一些"},{"start":9286.83,"end":9308.611,"text":"措施那另外他們最近也在我們這個行政指導之下他們有提出一些兩個月600分鐘的通話分鐘數來送那第三個部分回答委員剛剛講說中華電信7月31旅民障礙這一塊這一塊是因為是屬於那申辦作業的一些造成的異常"},{"start":9309.472,"end":9328.004,"text":"這個沒辦法事先得知但是我們以前以往在一些在訪應變裡頭其實中華的腳本還有其他兩家的腳本其實都有這個版本來應變來演練那這邊我相信中華電信公司應該會記取教訓這種情況未來應該是盡可能不要再發生"},{"start":9328.744,"end":9353.542,"text":"當然正常的情況申板應該是從小規模來做先導性測試然後OK之後才會繼續那當然他們也有備援的體系比方說北部、南部互惠備援申板不行就會roll back到原來版本他們都有演練過那自治可能是還有新的狀況那我們已經啟動行政調查會請他們來提出報告然後希望記取教訓以後不要再發生"},{"start":9354.318,"end":9371.349,"text":"是 因為有關這個生本作業導致的異常那也造成很多鄉親的這個就是損失或者是不方便那不方便還好 都造成損失有時候如果無可挽回那就真的是很大的遺憾那我們也希望就是說中華電信是國內"},{"start":9372.79,"end":9399.712,"text":"這個客戶用戶最多的一個電信公司所以在這個部分應該要更謹慎才對就是說不管在任何的這個設備或者是軟體的更新升級上在這個作業都要有很謹慎的一個做法所以我們希望就是說在這個部分民眾受到影響的我們中華電信這邊要主動的給予補償不要再讓民眾說還要來申請或者是說還要經過什麼樣的一個程序"},{"start":9400.573,"end":9411.818,"text":"原業者這方面都是會自動主動來處理都是Code底部會下個月會反映出來是好謝謝好謝謝陳樹業委員的執行現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":10023.325,"end":10042.622,"text":"好 各位請就座好 現在我們繼續開會在開會以前我提醒我們陳主委跟我們切正事今天我們的主題是災民斷信的問題"},{"start":10044.141,"end":10067.843,"text":"如果你們還一直在提預算的問題我必須要就正一下那是兩回事斷信為什麼斷信大家要想辦法來解決所以我不希望我們委員關心的議題你們能做到的要做的要迅速回答不要在那邊拐彎抹角扯到這個預算的問題這點我要拜託"},{"start":10069.746,"end":10085.151,"text":"這點我要拜託所以我聽到很多委員在質詢的時候沒有必要去閃到最後還是又在野黨三億算你們才斷信這是不對的所以我特別提醒兩位首長在答詢的時候是針對問題"},{"start":10089.473,"end":10101.984,"text":"來現在受災戶斷信的問題如何來幫忙如何來解決這是很重要所以我特別主席身份提醒兩位首長在答詢的時候不要在那邊拐彎抹角針對問題來解決問題好不好好現在請我們魯明哲委員來執行"},{"start":10118.939,"end":10139.415,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們數位部好 數位部區政次還有這個NCC好 我們陳主委陳主委還有中華電信好不好 簡董事長好 中華電信 簡董事長相關的問題一併來問好委員好好的委員好這個"},{"start":10142.711,"end":10169.499,"text":"我想問一下中華電信好不好在過去這近幾年的一個不管是天災的部分天災的一個部分像這樣的斷訊這麼久的大概有幾次我們看到7月27號災後21天當然因為有可能市化有可能手機甚至現在用網路很多的通訊對外都斷訊但是我在我記憶中21天就是三個禮拜之後"},{"start":10170.64,"end":10174.849,"text":"還沒有辦法修復齁這個情況是比較少見到的你看看"},{"start":10184.953,"end":10198.941,"text":"這是我們交通部長下去視察然後有民眾媒體相關也在詢問這是災後第22天我想監督事長你先說一下這次的情況看起來比一般的一個天災還要再長"},{"start":10201.582,"end":10212.19,"text":"主要的問題你剛剛已經說過了那你說這個部分除了天災的問題未來在技術上的一些問題下次不要面臨萬一面臨的話你們有什麼經驗跟教訓"},{"start":10214.068,"end":10233.909,"text":"跟委員報告這個分行動跟過往兩塊行動的部分其實發生前幾天中華電信事實上都恢復了當然另外兩家目前因為一些據點電力還有陷入的狀況所以行動恢復的比較快"},{"start":10234.71,"end":10260.359,"text":"但是剛才那個影片看到大部分都是固防就室內電話那這一次比較特殊因為風是從嘉義整個海面過來所以把主要的這個線路像電線桿我們就導了2000多支電線桿光化交接箱就在外面看到這樣總共有1800多個交接箱壞掉我們自己"},{"start":10262.247,"end":10288.759,"text":"Cover的這個所謂音法固定的這個線路我們是很快修好但是因為光化交接箱要拉到住戶的這一塊要一條一條修那這一次因為有一萬大概兩三萬戶所以這邊是比較慢那這今天這一次的狀況比較特殊主要是電線桿跟光化交接箱倒的非常多其他以前的大概行動基地台的恢復會比較快"},{"start":10290.06,"end":10304.416,"text":"好謝謝董事長其實這一次已經發生了這麼久來我看到不管是台電中華電信甚至很多的一個公務單位在第一線搶修人員我是敬佩辛苦了"},{"start":10305.417,"end":10324.497,"text":"但是我覺得說在這樣的一個算是危機處理中間不管是跨單位的一個協調怎麼樣在面臨類似的一個危機的時候更有效得到有效的一個經驗這是我們所有跨部會單位大家一起要努力的那我請問一下我們數位部這個政策"},{"start":10326.536,"end":10349.763,"text":"我們特別有看到因為這個事實上跟很多單位都有相關我們特別看到你有筆預算前瞻計畫四期是112年到143年其中的它一個標的最主要就是要提升重大災害時通訊網路應變滿符合今天一個題目當然你這個整體預算來講我們看到你們的數字是81.9億"},{"start":10351.864,"end":10378.552,"text":"分兩年去做一個執行截至於我們前幾天跟你去調在這個計畫未執行的比例只剩3.1%也就是說你花掉了70幾億好 花掉70幾億我們覺得說就這個預算的一個標題對於重大災害發生的時候通信網路的一個應變應該要更提升更強那可是我們發覺你花了這一筆錢之後呢"},{"start":10379.412,"end":10407.958,"text":"我們仔細去看其中有一條是強化93座的基地台的基礎設施不管是有災害來風災來的時候我把它強化嘛避免來的時候可能被吹倒或說發生損害結果我們也有發現這93座基地台強化的一個部分對於現在丹納斯那個風災的災區是所有的缺都沒有那我是想說明一下就請教一下好不好"},{"start":10409.278,"end":10427.928,"text":"市長你們在整個這樣規劃已經快結束了你們自己再稍微回想一下這一次風災帶來了中南部這幾個縣市在通郡上面的災害是不是你們當時都沒有想到是在區域它的一個模式是沒有想到還是在區塊上面還沒有輪到大概是什麼樣一個情況 請說明一下"},{"start":10429.989,"end":10454.389,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在前瞻第四期是主要的預算是在新設333座5G基地台那強化93座那但是呢當初當初這個預算他有一個但書就是說這些是以偏鄉為優先那也就是說偏鄉在在在這一個"},{"start":10455.69,"end":10477.235,"text":"他有一定的規定就是人口涵蓋度是多少那的確是針對這個嘉南平原的地區因為他靠市區比較近當初沒有被列為有一部分當初沒有被列為偏鄉所以當初很多是到山林或者是其他地方去改善那我們在災害應變中心跟內政部討論也馬上"},{"start":10479.716,"end":10506.063,"text":"就是針對第五期就是今年下半年的前瞻第五期那我們就優先來處理這個高抗災基地台那會優先在災區這邊來建置好 這部分我是建議說這個要特別注意啦因為這是一個很重要的一個經驗那當然因為我們在因為你的標題最主要是要重大災害時嘛當然偏鄉會聯絡不方便這是一個重點嘛"},{"start":10506.483,"end":10520.559,"text":"另外一個像很多區塊他比較容易受到不管是風災甚至地震去做一個挑戰的這個部分我也覺得這種災害的頻率或者機率可能性較大的一個區塊也要納入未來的一個重點"},{"start":10521.42,"end":10543.126,"text":"那剛剛市長特別說到了就是目前主要針對五期的部分29億你們會拿出部分的預算來做高抗災的基地台而且第一個要先行來辦理這個本次災害損這個嚴重的一個區塊我很支持這個是一個對的方向那當然這個基地台自己"},{"start":10543.906,"end":10559.915,"text":"就備有72小時一個備載的一個電力萬一這一次雖然你們的有些基地台修復很快可是有些地方電不來它沒有電 不來電因為電感可能倒下來2000多支台電人也很辛苦所以"},{"start":10561.076,"end":10577.005,"text":"不管是光纜斷了或者電力斷了這都會造成即使你修好了線路還是沒有辦法使用所以你這邊要預計這個高抗災的基地台耐15級風那我是不是建議次長還是你們的相關的一個單位"},{"start":10578.126,"end":10599.453,"text":"我覺得要特別注意因為極端氣候雖然都不是我們所願的但是現況就是這樣這次的丹納斯颱風我們在撤出在這個氣象署在撤出園林口吳鄉曾經陣風高達17級風在表面上看起來我即將要做一個抗災高抗災基地台它可以耐15級風"},{"start":10601.093,"end":10617.261,"text":"可是已經發生了就有17級風那他你把這個高抗災的基地台如果已經做好了來模擬一下在這個口湖鄉發生這樣的一個情況會不會也倒下來了所以我在想我覺得這個是技術上"},{"start":10618.301,"end":10639.731,"text":"技術當然要怎麼樣去做處理要怎麼樣去強化我覺得花了這麼多錢居然要去把它做好我希望你們在這個抗風的一個係數上面你們再去精進再去考量各位看到下面這個這一本是我們國科會跟環境部他們做出來的去年2024年針對於氣候變遷的科學報告"},{"start":10644.153,"end":10672.372,"text":"他裡面特別有個章節針對未來颱風的趨勢啊那不是我寫的嘛我也覺得既然花這麼多時間去研究其中颱風強度預計啊極端氣候他本身就會上升那第二個呢最大風速呢他有預期會增加5到9%所以你們在原本預估的他未來的能不能經歷過這些挑戰我希望你們能夠一併去考量次長好不好好謝謝委員執教因為那個規範他"},{"start":10674.293,"end":10687.972,"text":"它是已經訂定那規範修正需要時間那我們也會滾動式檢討但是我想我們可以做的就是說如果業者他是以超過標準去做那我們會擇優補助"},{"start":10689.974,"end":10706.521,"text":"那第二個有關剛剛委員講到電力的問題因為其實光靠高抗災基地台是沒有辦法面對大規模的災害所以我們在這一次的前瞻預算裡面也匡列了大概200部的行動發電機那因為我們分析的結果發現1263個基站裡面有40%是因為沒有電"},{"start":10714.59,"end":10733.867,"text":"那因為大規模的電線倒塌嘛所以去補發電機也是一個也是一個solution那這一邊我們會有層次的來規劃那希望在下半年能夠順利的來進行好的 謝謝次長尤其這個風力這個部分因為未來你做好之後民眾都在看嘛"},{"start":10734.648,"end":10755.237,"text":"坦白講我們所有國民的納稅那我們今天做好我們希望你們想方設法讓他的抗風係數啊已經實際發生了那我們去做一個可能時期急風再來又倒掉這個我是覺得怪怪的齁那最後我想請中華電信的簡董事長簡董7月31號啊這個大斷訊事件啊"},{"start":10758.547,"end":10785.272,"text":"其實因為我發覺應該受到不要講受害就受到困擾的人真的很多因為我自己親身經歷不管是產生誤會請政府單位回里長電話給他里長到下午爆氣一通電話也沒接到讓我們用LINE傳給環保局我說你們莫名其妙你們為什麼跟里長為什麼不聯絡他說他打了五通沒人接"},{"start":10786.492,"end":10809.557,"text":"兩邊吵來吵去 吵到最後啊吵到最後發覺 兩邊都沒錯啊是中華電信發生大斷訊事件啊那 可是我覺得很奇怪我是到大概下午五點多啦我自己喔 我自己你也沒傳簡訊給我嘛我不知道你預期我們一般人要怎麼樣知道這件事情我們報章媒體他有披露大斷訊造成很多的影響我們知道這個訊息"},{"start":10810.757,"end":10836.558,"text":"那在個人那個手機那一般就是自己你們自己內部排除去解決問題首先第一個問題田董事長請問一下你們告訴我是系統升級我想請問一下這一類的系統升級應該是每一年或者一兩年就這是一個常態性的還是一輩子只做一次的常態性的嘛那怎麼會之前都沒有發生這個問題這次到底為什麼發生問題你說一下吧"},{"start":10838.379,"end":10853.127,"text":"好 這個跟委員報告這個是凌晨啦 因為我們升級都在凌晨那這一次的升級是針對行動語音叫做VOTE只有語音部分升級啦那本來我們的備援是四套系統加一套備援"},{"start":10853.687,"end":10874.428,"text":"我們是想要再多加一套 讓它更具有彈性所以在升級的時候 這個軟體的升級可能有一些在功能上面沒有掌握那麼清楚所以當天確實在凌晨 這個整個語音的部分就斷訊所以在凌晨兩三點 一直修到凌晨六點"},{"start":10876.77,"end":10898.792,"text":"6點就恢復啦但是這個恢復我們系統都恢復啦但是因為很多的使用者之前已經連在上面了所以變成我們要主一個去把它踢掉再重新來連接這個有兩個方法我們系統一邊踢另外user如果是關機關機再開機就恢復啦也就是這個動作"},{"start":10901.055,"end":10906.689,"text":"6點開始一直到之後的就會延續剛才委員講的這個事件好 董事長誰的責任"},{"start":10908.627,"end":10934.451,"text":"中華電信要來檢討這個升級為什麼會造成這個問題到底誰啊你也不要扛責任到底誰沒搞清楚到底發生什麼事這樣啊你們回去要研究一下啦好不好是這過去有類似的升級不管是各個領域都會有update嘛那升級這種怎麼會發生這樣的一個算是非常嚴重性的一些問題我覺得你們要有具體的一個書面報告提供給我們交通委員會也一方面給你們自己在做精進的作為"},{"start":10935.091,"end":10955.653,"text":"那我今天要說的是第二項在斷信發生的時間你們六點逐步把你們的內部系統修復之後結果我覺得我到現在還是覺得有點莫名其妙你剛剛也特別說了語音系統沒辦法使用可是簡訊因為我傳給別人簡訊人家還收到你知道嗎所以"},{"start":10956.514,"end":10982.729,"text":"你們只透過官方網站但大家都知道現在每一個人的Homepage 網站每一次大家要去上面看你每一天說真的啦沒有幾千人會上去的流量那你透過社群媒體TRADE現在年輕人很多在用啊可是我也不太懂你為什麼單獨在TRADE上面去發表發生這樣的一個訊息說你要開飛航模式或怎麼樣關機再開"},{"start":10984.95,"end":10999.107,"text":"我就最簡單是你自己可以掌控的所有用戶的簡訊你用戶的簡訊你在第一時間就應該去發給他們說抱歉請你飛行模式在開或者關機在開你現在在檢討是不是用戶簡訊應該一剛開始就發"},{"start":11003.382,"end":11027.582,"text":"是 我們一開始隔天就是在網站跟社群媒體有寄然後在新聞稿也都有發布啦那簡訊確實第一時間也想要發整個簡訊但是我們有1100萬的這個用戶所以我們簡訊是逐批發也怕說一次發了所有人都來又會造成系統的當掉所以簡訊是一開始就逐步就有在發啦"},{"start":11028.303,"end":11053.848,"text":"沒有啦 我覺得喔 董事長我不覺得這是你直接的責任啦但是統籌的要負責任當事你們董總要出來啦因為像這種東西很簡單嘛你簡訊在發的過去不管是疫情期間瞬間告訴大家什麼事情也沒斷訊啦如果說你考慮是費用的話真的是很不應該啦真的是很不應該如果說啊 費用這一條沒人付我不知道什麼原因"},{"start":11054.548,"end":11079.503,"text":"我自己個人 我一個人沒有收到嘛所以你說逐步發 逐步發很多人到現在也沒有收到是不是為了省錢我真的不清楚但是你們絕對不應該這樣的處理這件事情對你們所有的用戶這是服務的一部分這是服務成本的一部分你在第一時間就應該用用戶的簡訊直接告訴你的用戶說語音通話不通請你關機再開我希望下次可以去調整為什麼"},{"start":11080.565,"end":11086.483,"text":"你每一天的化物量這你們的數字嘛這前半年的平均每一天820萬"},{"start":11089.246,"end":11114.349,"text":"分鐘啊就在那一整天啊大家斷信打擾的不管是國際的商務甚至醫療所有人你不能夠說連這一條錢都把它省起來我覺得這樣很不應該我覺得這個部分對於下次的SOP如果再有這種情況除非簡訊也不通那我今天就是白講了嘛簡訊通你第一個應該要用自己的資源通知自己的客戶你們好好去研究好不好"},{"start":11115.196,"end":11139.842,"text":"好 謝謝跟委員報告不是錢的問題是怕花了一千萬簡訊之後一千萬的人如果重新開機關機喔 系統又會當掉所以我們是逐批發 跟那個費用沒有關係跟委員特別報告一下好吧 那我們還沒發到的是是被欸 我問你喔 大家的手機都不通啦郭國文的通不通啊"},{"start":11141.175,"end":11143.176,"text":"好謝謝主席是不是請"},{"start":11171.399,"end":11175.925,"text":"蘇發部薛次長中華電信檢董還有NCC陳竺偉中華檢董事長還有陳竺偉"},{"start":11183.462,"end":11211.891,"text":"我首先要謝謝中華電信簡董謝謝你們全部的同仁你看那個亮島還有高登可以說全縣中的全縣以前都沒有基地台當然我們對官兵的照顧不是嘴巴講的啦除了待遇上我們給他照顧之外我們在通訊上所以在高登亮島的阿兵哥在那邊一年兩年一待啊待很久"},{"start":11212.651,"end":11238.377,"text":"常常台灣這邊女朋友鬧兵變心情不好幹什麼的現在他們心情都非常愉快,而且待遇也非常高一個沖原兵大概可以拿到九萬多塊所以很多人都願意到那邊當兵非常感謝中華電信那麼106年中華電信已經在台馬之星限制了傳播專用的訊號轉發器還有天線"},{"start":11241.451,"end":11256.088,"text":"那麼並將對海涵蓋的基地還升級那後續在108年啦108年的8月又調整台灣對海涵蓋基地的天線還有更新台馬之星的接收的天線"},{"start":11257.728,"end":11286.778,"text":"那麼很明顯經過實測已經顯著的改善了3G、4G這個航程中可以通話距離有大幅的提升當然這個中華電信還有剛才主席講了你們三個單位有沒有經費的問題有沒有被我們凍結或是幹什麼的有沒有因為經費的問題而斷訊中華電信有沒有目前沒有沒有 速發部有沒有目前沒有也沒有NCC有沒有"},{"start":11287.438,"end":11310.144,"text":"沒有,報告沒有你應該有吧?你不是被砍了很多嗎?是我們NCC本身,民眾的部分沒有民眾的部分沒有?剛才趙偉也講了,不要在這邊錢有問題有問題我們凍結的部分,我們全部都會幫你恢復所以有一些他們亂講,我們砍你的錢,讓你們連衛生紙都買不起不是這麼回事"},{"start":11312.414,"end":11339.854,"text":"為了進一步提升航運的通訊品質因為往返我們馬祖兩地、台灣兩地的客源的穩定還有可靠的行動的通訊服務供應台馬航線緊急的救助服務所以是不是能夠比到先前對台馬之星的通訊品質的精進那我這裡提出幾個"},{"start":11341.255,"end":11369.311,"text":"大概第一個是新台馬輪船艙內偵測轉發器偵測轉發器第二個是沿岸航蓋航線基地台建設5G的設備第三個是三芝恆山建設30M自立式的鐵塔提供航線信號航蓋錢董這樣聽懂了嗎聽懂第四個就是船艙襲孔級恢復"},{"start":11370.578,"end":11384.444,"text":"那麼這四個大概需要多少錢?需要一千四百萬請問中華電信還有速發部本案施作的期程細節,還有營運廠商聯絡的情形我想請中華電信說明一下好不好"},{"start":11385.472,"end":11414.563,"text":"好 這個臺碼 當然包括臺捧的這個船的輪我們都持續有在關注謝謝委員來協助推動這個事情那事實上我們已經也勘察一段時間而且已經也都規劃好 已經在進行當中那我們要特別謝謝蘇花部有特別來關心那以未來對這個經費的支柱應該蘇花部也會來支持"},{"start":11415.393,"end":11441.243,"text":"事務發布對本案補助經費你們研議的情形怎麼樣我們目前已經在預算裡面有去匡列這針對本來對離島的通訊補助的部分包含海嵐跟這些船舶的改善都有列入計畫裡面台馬輪這邊預計是在配合他稅休的時間就是在"},{"start":11442.503,"end":11459.973,"text":"115年的2月的時候他稅休的時間委員剛剛講的這些工程我們已經協調中華電信開始準備並預計在稅休時間會完成那另外兩家電信公司我們也後續會就基地台這邊來做技術細節來討論"},{"start":11462.913,"end":11489.9,"text":"會啦,這次蘇發部部長在交通委員會到馬拉祖考察的時候那麼我跟他私底下我們談了以後,我對他有更進一步的了解那麼部長對馬拉祖電信品質也非常的重視尤其對海嵐的部分,因為中華電信是一個公司組織嘛對不對他的錢也非常有限,虧本虧了很多啦所以請蘇發部也盡力的協助,那部長也答應我了所以簡董你要謝謝蘇發部"},{"start":11492.068,"end":11520.057,"text":"有,我已經謝很多次了謝很多次喔?謝一次就跟我講一次嘛,好不好?讓我了解一下那這一次大辣子颱風當然因為全球的氣候變遷那麼幾個颱風對我們台灣,西南氣流過來對中南部造成很重大的災害影響所以這個尤其是中華電信的部分剛才也提到了"},{"start":11521.397,"end":11543.32,"text":"南部居民對各類通訊設施損害功能抱怨很多還有我們馬祖的選區雖然說這次沒有受到颱風的災害但是在整個通訊韌性及搶救機制能不能對我們重大天災我們還不知道"},{"start":11544.778,"end":11570.605,"text":"那麼尤其馬祖、小山通還有台灣的觀光旅客非常的多如果通訊一旦中斷,當然現在有微波在那個最近在勘察的過程,我也看到陳秉飛委員說還是林俊賢委員去調度通訊基地台行動的通訊基地台我想這個有很大的注意,我不曉得台灣有多少台這樣的東西"},{"start":11572.978,"end":11594.733,"text":"是那個如果行動基地台加衛星整個加一加中華電信在等島有50台那另外還有業者的應該也有各位報告衛星有萬位的資源萬位的基台總共30台是社會部去年補助的總共30台那非衛星的大概106台加起來136台那這個有沒有機會能不能引進一台到馬祖來我們萬一也發生類似的狀況那個會不會很貴啊那個"},{"start":11604.334,"end":11615.181,"text":"跟委員報告就是說衛星其實只佔那個車子的一部分的價錢那一部車大概是1100萬到1500萬那衛星的部分佔300萬那其實在馬祖我們已經放了中軌衛星跟低軌衛星"},{"start":11623.286,"end":11643.438,"text":"那就是說這個可以討論就是說其實馬祖如果在某些制高點已經有低軌衛星那是不是加上車子可以解決局部災區的問題這個我們回去會跟電信商討看看如果中國衛星低軌衛星如果他還不足的話"},{"start":11644.673,"end":11669.383,"text":"那有必要的時候當然不只馬祖還有金門澎湖我們離島能夠有的話各放一台放在那邊對我們地區居民如果碰到天災的時候我們有所因應你回去研究一下好不好沒問題 我們的確是有一部分就是用來支持離島的通訊還有目前對馬祖地區的通訊的搶救機制"},{"start":11670.658,"end":11675.048,"text":"還有人員的訓練,還有裝備器材準備的情形怎麼樣?"},{"start":11677.345,"end":11704.75,"text":"現在對於馬祖的通訊就如同委員所知我們現在臺馬2號、3號另外4號即將明年要通除此之外我們對馬祖的微波已經12.6G了另外就是低軌衛星OneWeb也在那邊有中軌衛星高軌衛星都有那委員所關心的可能是衛星的量我們可以在疊子上面再多增加那移動車的部分剛才次長有特別講會再研究"},{"start":11705.523,"end":11727.062,"text":"我們馬祖很麻煩因為有四個鄉有五個島住人的地方有五個島 比澎湖少一點金門簡單 金門一個大金門一個小金門尤其他又通橋了金門的問題還比較單純所以如果對於馬祖幾個離島我倒是建議可以放一些低軌衛星的碟子"},{"start":11727.922,"end":11753.998,"text":"因為一個碟子50萬到100萬多放兩個在固定的基地台旁邊萬一有什麼狀況它也可以隨時來啟動好啊我剛才提到行動那個通訊車的問題啊如果中軌衛星跟低軌衛星能夠滿足這些需求的話或是你再多裝一兩個嘛對不對能夠滿足的話當然我們就不需要了嘛這個請速發部中華電信你們回去研究一下好不好"},{"start":11754.838,"end":11766.198,"text":"你們去研究一下我們回去會研究其他大概中華電力隊馬祖地區我想該做的也都做了現在就在地人員"},{"start":11768.018,"end":11794.932,"text":"在地化有沒有現在你們招考人員有在加強了沒有因為你招考就是單一個單一個的話這個人台灣的我們鄉親錄取他又不去不去你又委外又重新招考又半年就過去了所以造成中華電機在馬祖那邊的人力不足不夠因為你看我們東舉只配置一個舉光配置一個都是一個"},{"start":11795.732,"end":11804.975,"text":"那你一個一缺的話,你有兩個三個的話,一個不在的話起碼還有兩個嘛,對不對你只有一個人啊,一個不在的話就沒啦,是不是"},{"start":11805.962,"end":11831.05,"text":"所以簡董你考慮一下這個問題好不好是跟委員報告我們招考盡量以在地的他比較容易一直在那邊服務啦這部分我們會來因為以前都這樣做啦我們會更強化來做所以你們在起碼錄取幾個被取的嘛被取的在第二次第一個不去的話被取的就可以低補上去了嘛你不要重新再考嘛你不要爭取一個被取的你不用了不用就沒啦"},{"start":11831.97,"end":11857.708,"text":"所以中華電力在這一個部分我拜託你們好不好能夠加強一下其他有關經費的問題如果有問題的話到交通委員會跟我們報告嘛好不好我想交通委員會是一個蠻溫和的一個委員會大概都會那個不要去談錢的事情剛才召委特別講了你說這個又沒錢那個又被你們凍結凍結可以恢復啊我們並沒有怎麼樣啊所以我剛才講到NCC"},{"start":11859.209,"end":11875.418,"text":"那是因為速發部NCC打詐不利打詐不利我們刪減了一些經費問題是出在這裡我們沒有意思要行政單位癱瘓並沒有這個意思好不好那謝謝三位好不好謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝我們陳雪生委員的執行現在請黃建豪委員執行"},{"start":11894.093,"end":11901.601,"text":"好謝謝主席喔那我們一樣請蘇衛部缺次長然後 蘇衛部缺次長NCC陳竺偉好NCC陳竺偉"},{"start":11910.435,"end":11933.805,"text":"兩位好一開始當然我們還是要關心這次的這個風災過後的一些狀況我想這個通訊斷掉我想對所有國人的影響都非常的重大因為沒有辦法通訊嘛那你看一下這個新聞就7月30號新聞單大颱風第24天還有部分地方斷訊那ACC的說法是說要成立客服專線不過問題就在這裡啊今天我都沒有辦法通訊了"},{"start":11935.131,"end":11952.988,"text":"那如果成立客服專線他就沒辦法通訊他怎麼讓你們知道所以今天問題當然事情發生就發生了但我們要檢討說以後如果又發生類似的狀況技術上NCT到底能不能掌握到說有些地方已經斷訊了你們會知道嗎還是一定要等人通報你們才會知道"},{"start":11954.737,"end":11973.739,"text":"跟委員回報 第一點這個通報部分可以是當地里長里長如果他跟那不通的災民也許不同但是他會知道的話那他可以透過他來服務然後另外第二部分剛剛委員講到說NC如何掌握哪邊通信不通"},{"start":11974.459,"end":11987.528,"text":"這邊因為在海警成立之後我們大概都跟三大跟地心業者都有在協助連線也會進駐災防辦那邊多次會有一些每家業者的網路的狀況他們都要請他們回報"},{"start":11988.929,"end":12016.132,"text":"所以今天今天只是風災我們現在講因為今天剛好因為這個風災讓大家發現說原來我們通訊看起來本來就覺得我們是個先進的國家嘛科技之島但沒想到風災過後居然有這麼多地方沒有辦法被沒有辦法聯繫到其實說真的這個新聞就南部這個災情爆發出來還是因為有一些這個網友他們去現場拍一些畫面空拍啊等等然後他們我們很多人主流媒體或是我們社會大眾突然發現到原來有這麼多地方聯繫不到"},{"start":12017.193,"end":12045.592,"text":"所以我今天要問的是說你今天主委我還是要問的問題是如果今天發生這種大規模斷訊的時候你們有掌握的機制嗎還是都一定要等像你剛剛講的要離場要基層通報還是主動你就發現但是其中之一而已為什麼因為業者本身都要網路管理他有多連線的哪邊記者台不通他那個節點就黑掉他們都知道然後他們也會通報我們所以我們在統計上都是說記者台壞掉幾台都是這樣子業者的網管系統都可以知道哪些點不通"},{"start":12046.363,"end":12050.63,"text":"那所以以當當是颱風為例啦這一次你們什麼時候知道那些地方斷訊的"},{"start":12051.499,"end":12076.653,"text":"其實第一時間都知道第一時間業者會通報給我們好 所以那既然第一時間知道那你看後面包含說只有提到我們接下來要談的問題去年7月8號的時候這個跟蘇衛部有點關係去年7月8號蘇衛部講說這個非同步軌道衛星通訊已經涵蓋台灣全島那時候我們看的那個計畫裡面是因為2022年有一個前瞻計畫叫應變或暫時應用新興科技通訊"},{"start":12077.754,"end":12091.753,"text":"的這個網路數位韌性的一個計畫那時候做了這樣的計畫之後7月8號的時候去年7月8號講說全島台灣就全覆蓋了所以以後萬一遇到像這種斷訊緊急事件的時候我們的敵鬼衛星我們這相關東西能夠補位進來"},{"start":12094.209,"end":12113.038,"text":"但是從這次的事件發生之後你會看到說包含總統去勘災然後還要去點名說特別去點名郭公文有訊號其他的沒訊號為什麼會發生這樣的事情那這個地緯衛星的訊號在這樣的狀況發生的時候在這種緊急狀況發生的時候他沒有辦法馬上補位嗎還是要透過什麼機制才能夠把它補上來"},{"start":12114.142,"end":12139.453,"text":"跟委員報告就是其實郭國倫委員的訊號他是中華電信那他如果是透過行動基地台車出現的那其實他就是借接低軌衛星那也就是說在在發生的第一時間我們已經調度了28台車到災區去支援那這28台車都是有低軌衛星的那但是呢因為因為只有28台28台很難去補1200"},{"start":12143.157,"end":12143.497,"text":"那所以所以"},{"start":12162.342,"end":12186.196,"text":"我們認為就是除了除了這一個低軌衛星的車跟這個行動基地台以外那強化原來的基站的建設那也是重要的一部分這個是我們在災後檢討就是包含高抗災基地台跟跟這個加油跟這個電力供應因為我們去分析1260幾個基站失效發現有40%是因為"},{"start":12190.839,"end":12209.709,"text":"沒有電那有50%是因為沒有網路那有10%是其他的因素比如說鐵塔倒了或綜合性的災害那所以去補足這個光纖網路的建設跟補足電力的供應是我們在下一期前瞻預算第一個要做的事情市長"},{"start":12210.809,"end":12222.223,"text":"這個前瞻計畫叫做應變或暫時應用新興科技強化通訊那今天是在風災所以大家還有辦法同步來處理那今天如果今天我們按照這個前瞻計畫是為了應付假設是應變這種暫時的狀況我想暫時假設真的發生戰爭"},{"start":12228.308,"end":12243.157,"text":"通訊突然都斷掉了那如果全台灣只有三十台車二十八台車可以用的話今天是只有台南比較嚴重喔所以今天要派車去台南然後覆蓋沒辦法覆蓋到這麼廣泛那如果今天全台灣都陷入這種通訊中斷的情況下"},{"start":12244.4,"end":12268.454,"text":"加上你已經講了我們非同步軌道衛星是涵蓋台灣全球那當時的這個資訊裡面在去年也說年底前要佈建70個基地台的這個後設的這個基地台佈建完成了沒 佈建在哪裡 夠不夠70個基地台大部分都佈建完成了那很多是在重要的通訊節點比如說立法院 行政院然後還有離島離島比如說像"},{"start":12271.216,"end":12284.773,"text":"現在的東沙島東沙島他現在的backhole就是他原來的基地台中華電線基地台原來是透過同步衛星那大概2個月前他已經透過低軌道衛星傳回來"},{"start":12286.375,"end":12302.491,"text":"那這個對於那個島上面的官兵的通訊品質也有很大的改善那太平島也是透過中軌衛星那包含了一些偏鄉跟島嶼的部分呢我們除了微波都是用衛星去補它的背後那另外這個700多個衛星的節點因為"},{"start":12306.094,"end":12331.226,"text":"有一百多個是用來做緊急的聯繫比如說像在災害應變中心在之前的演練我們就跟內政部的災害應變中心跟其他的縣市的災害應變中心視訊的時候也是有好幾個站點我們是用地軌衛星在運作的那所以這一個東西就是要在日常的演練都要拿出來用"},{"start":12332.426,"end":12352.414,"text":"那當然希望未來可以不斷的增加這個接收器的數目因為現在700多個雖然全台灣都有訊號包含離島都有訊號可是700多個只能單點的去救援那需要更多的接收器才能夠增加涵蓋率這樣我們是誤會了就是說你講的意思是說今天"},{"start":12353.755,"end":12370.384,"text":"技術上他還涵蓋全島台灣全島但是我們的接收的機器不夠車子也好機台也好所以等於還不夠嘛你還要繼續佈建嘛是不是這個意思那需要多少數量因為今天講真的你不用再演練了我們看到台南的風災這個事情就發現了這個問題的存在"},{"start":12373.299,"end":12385.918,"text":"就像我剛剛講的我們從去年的地震得到的教訓就是說這個車子不能要8小時以後才到災區所以我們就配合災害應變中心30台每一個地方都確保一個小時之內會到災區這個是爭取時效"},{"start":12389.602,"end":12415.074,"text":"但是如果要涵蓋率針對這樣的大規模災害那一個車子的數量跟碟子的數量要大幅的增加我們原來有規劃一個五年計畫是要逐步增加到2500個而且這個2500個希望是涵蓋不同的衛星因為你全部依賴單一的衛星也會有風險既然講到不同衛星我也想要問一下因為我們現在台灣使用的是OneWeb"},{"start":12415.916,"end":12436.965,"text":"是用OneWeb那OneWeb是由我們中華電信代理的嘛代理申請的嘛對不對是由我們中華電信來申請的那今天剛剛次長提到了我們希望有不同的衛星不同的公司來幫忙協助這個工作那為什麼台灣現在只選擇OneWeb那Starlink我們有去代理嗎有去處理嗎不能申請的原因或是沒有申請的原因是什麼除了"},{"start":12437.725,"end":12451.641,"text":"跟委員報告STARLINK在速發部成立的時候就有來跟我們討論過兩三次那但是呢我們有兩個當初是有兩個法規造成這個障礙"},{"start":12453.283,"end":12481.737,"text":"那其中一個是Gateway的設置另外一個是這個持股比例的設置那Gateway設置這一個法規限制已經拿掉了我們就是希望他能夠提供Virtual的管理平台但是持股比例因為我們也就這一題跟包含了外國的單位也做了討論那因為這一個法規是跟"},{"start":12482.737,"end":12508.408,"text":"跟其他國家的法規是一致的那我們也有提出就是說包含starlink他在日本落地的模式跟韓國落地的模式我們都可以討論但是這都牽涉到複雜的貿易問題跟跟自由貿易協定的問題所以所以大概之前的討論就停留在兩年前一年半前那但是我們當初要建"},{"start":12509.648,"end":12528.83,"text":"我們當初要建設這個低軌衛星的時候呢我們也是希望一直多元所以我們同步跟好幾個廠商去做聯繫那目前市面上除了Sarlink以外包含了Uterset的OneWave那還有這一個SES就是中軌的部分我們都已經引入台灣"},{"start":12530.111,"end":12558.86,"text":"然後在太空中心跟國科會的指導下面在下一期的太空計畫那也有計畫要引進新的星系那這些新的星系因為都還在實驗的階段所以我們會持續關注也會持續的來做這樣的規劃那事實上我們是有非常我們有把握就是說任何星系只要它落地了我們一定會在第一時間讓它在台灣能夠運行"},{"start":12560.165,"end":12581.854,"text":"好 市長謝謝我想時間到了那今天主要就是最後一個就是要提到主要要建議說不能只有OneWeb一間公司如果他們是透過代理的方式我想別間提供低軌衛星或中軌衛星的這種平台的技術我們應該也要考慮進去因為今天如果只有OneWeb它的覆蓋率也好它的出狀況萬一因為尤其是現在"},{"start":12582.594,"end":12598.452,"text":"我們經過這次事件之後發現我認為這樣子的一間公司的量能或是我們的技術面是沒辦法符合真的遇到緊急狀況或是萬一真的發生戰爭的時候我們是沒辦法處理的所以我希望我們數位部跟NCC能夠盡快的去跟其他公司"},{"start":12599.332,"end":12625.175,"text":"能夠趕快接上這個平台不要說只有一間而已好不好是 跟剛委員補充報告這個STAR LINK如果要在台灣落地其實方法並不是說現在的外資比例是個上限是個障礙不是因為電信法到電信管理法外資比例部分這個規定都沒有修正但是電信法時期的不管是海蘭還有其他的外資比例其實當時外人要投資台灣都可以操作處理那只是說"},{"start":12626.696,"end":12635.546,"text":"他還是要那個願不願意走以前的那種方式來處理他有意願的話就可以處理你說代理就好了嘛代理是請人處理對好 謝謝好 謝謝黃建豪委員的執行現在請蔡依瑜委員執行"},{"start":12657.891,"end":12684.412,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是請速發部市長還有NCC陳主委還有中華電信我們簡董事長那台電的副總好台電的喜副總各位長官那這一次當納斯颱風那從嘉義布袋登陸那事實上在嘉義的海區"},{"start":12686.184,"end":12713.952,"text":"剩下來是丹奈斯的最嚴重的災區我們那邊倒掉的電感我記得在第10天的時候公布是1700多根這還不包括中華電信的這個的電信電感電信桿或者是一些路燈那所以包括後續台電的電感的恢復跟中華電信的整個的一個作業在10天裡面真的是"},{"start":12715.995,"end":12716.961,"text":"真的是很辛苦啦"},{"start":12717.489,"end":12740.275,"text":"我們在第一線都看到了不管是台電的維修人員中華電信維修人員那尤其像中華電信在第一天開始後也有掉了很多電信車但是我們也從這一次的這樣的一個災害因為這個颱風是全面性的我們一族布袋那裡有幾個村莊你甚至去那個村莊你看到的現在每一支電話條啦都是電信條都是轉新的啦舊的都回來了"},{"start":12746.216,"end":12751.943,"text":"可是我們也是看到了一些國家電力跟電信的一個韌性的問題那這兩個韌性的問題就是說一旦台電電感斷掉"},{"start":12759.022,"end":12788.041,"text":"那電力無法供應的時候跟著信號也沒有所以很多人會開始很多村民哀嚎說我們彷彿在孤島我們完全沒有辦法對外聯絡所以我想要請教就是說我們之前有協商跟中華電信NCC也有在場我們有講過為了強化國家的韌性是不是未來中華電信不只是中華電信電信公司的基地台是不是跟台電在每一個鄉鎮"},{"start":12789.366,"end":12818.268,"text":"的建築物的台電的據點是不是要有所聯動因為台電的據點儘管應該有基地台這件事應該兩個單位都在這裡這個件事可以落實嗎這個有在跟台電的接觸那中華電信這方面也是進行更積極他們既有就有在跟台電在合作那剛剛董事長也有在先前的說明頭也提到說有跟台電進一步的合作的在洽談當中那台電這邊"},{"start":12821.156,"end":12842.909,"text":"未來你們跟中華電信之間至少穩住台電的據點就是一個有訊號的地方這個事情在發生的當下其實在台南跟嘉義台電的那個機房那個地方事實上我們已經有現成這家對未來應該有280個"},{"start":12845.342,"end":12868.05,"text":"主要的這個地點會再跟台電這邊看怎麼樣來增加這個基地台對 這是未來應該要去強化的嘛 來 祖格委員 我報告一下第一個 我們現在台電跟那個中華電信目前合作了有18個地方然後呢 這幾天中華電信他目前我們之間的協調他有拋出大概有280幾個"},{"start":12870.771,"end":12897.705,"text":"據點那這些據點呢因為受制於地形跟地霧的關係所以後續我們會繼續會勘會勘完了以後看看我們這邊是不是可以增強我們的這整個電信的覆蓋率所以這一部分我們也現在正在進行中這部分你們應該就再好好去溝通因為災害發生前三天這個我想你們都知道啦縱使這個行動衛星車到了現場沒有辦法增加信號為什麼雲層太厚了"},{"start":12900.486,"end":12925.704,"text":"連要打到低軌衛星都被那麼厚的雲層給擋住了所以塑本歸原還是傳統的基地台 以柯林只要不要又被17級風吹倒 它也是相對比較勇而且信號的提供也相對穩定那我現在跟中華電力還有一點要確認就是說事實上現在已復原的狀況大概手機的信號我電話電訊我要額外啦 啊這次在下的時候"},{"start":12929.037,"end":12948.046,"text":"是真正的災區啦施生中華電信還有撐住啦599的大概一格啦1399的還有棟崖都有兩格啦一格就全壞掉了 不然這就要看訊息啦檢訊息要看得到 剩下兩家都是全掛掉啦所以中華電信在這一點事實上在"},{"start":12949.026,"end":12965.129,"text":"災害發生的時候看起來表現有比兩家電信公司還要來得強但是我們現在看到的就是家用的電話因為我們這裡整個很多老人他還是要用家用電話可是家用電話看起來他整個復原還是遙遙無期那這部分"},{"start":12966.791,"end":12981.608,"text":"因為那個四化保溫 光我這裡出去要一戶一戶現在在自己還有700多戶還沒有復原整個台南加起來 台南加一加起來差不多一萬兩千多戶 現在只剩下"},{"start":12983.47,"end":12992.734,"text":"差不多兩千八百戶那嘉義這邊有七百萬七百萬但是這兩天淹水又超過七百多所以要超過一千五百一千五百天氣好的話我們施工能量可以到五百到一千看天氣狀況所以可能如果天氣好又幾十天這樣我就把這個修理好沒關係現在公辦整個七月我們那裡風災丸水災這個"},{"start":13012.663,"end":13033.149,"text":"事實上公班都很辛苦,但是確實居民也會有這樣的需求所以我想中華電信科領的百萬再多出一點力因為我們除了台南嘉義的部分,我們都從各縣市調公班都盡量把公班調去那裡,但是因為其他縣市要維持最基本的人力,因為有東西也要派"},{"start":13034.589,"end":13051.733,"text":"公辦的權利你們也要擔責有大辦的有來災區倒灑更辛苦的我覺得這要讓他們多點獎勵在災區工作是真的很辛苦而且很多事實上都是超時工作所以對於國管起跳過來或是說我們有一些多保障的就會特別留意這部分的東西對 他們來災區倒灑老實說我們感謝就不會負責就透過你們透過你們就給他們照顧一下"},{"start":13062.796,"end":13085.266,"text":"好好謝謝謝謝蔡議與委員的質詢下一位登記發言的委員林國成林國成召委好謝謝主席"},{"start":13087.698,"end":13105.589,"text":"請NCC陳主委請NCC陳主委蔡政次蔡政次還有我們薛政次行政院我們那個救災我們王主任王主任中華電信簡董事長台電徐副總台電徐副總徐副總"},{"start":13121.448,"end":13148.745,"text":"那個各位所長啦 我想救災啊說實在的是仰邊千日用在意識天災的問題說實在無法之抵抗但是問題出來就是要解決救災啊如同救命所以生命啊為重就不要像說實在的賴總統過去在當"},{"start":13151.257,"end":13165.407,"text":"台南有震災的時候他非常認真我上電視我都稱讚他可是這次當總統以後他的救災這個基本精神我是對他有意見的"},{"start":13166.311,"end":13191.694,"text":"第一個金人不能進去什麼民房啦還有你自己爬啦還有一些說實話某些人電話可以通難道他這麼這麼外行嗎所以我是覺得這樣啦我是覺得這樣救災是大家基本上一定要做的事人民受苦受難天災他都無法抵抗"},{"start":13192.679,"end":13204.932,"text":"可是天災也不是你們叫他這樣做所以責怪誰都不公平但是我剛剛為什麼要倚重心長的要跟兩位所長建議說實在 預算無關啊"},{"start":13208.397,"end":13228.748,"text":"斷信是事實要怎麼樣來彌補我們的缺失我相信大家都不願意看到這樣啊可是我們就是未以籌謀如何改進這是非常重要的所以我的主題也是很簡單我們也知道"},{"start":13230.066,"end":13247.374,"text":"不管是台電不管是中華電信不管是NCC或者我們數位部大家都很辛苦啊可是在這個部分我要跟王主任特別特別建議行政院有這個組織其實你們就是一定要橫向聯繫要來統籌當然我們有派陳那個"},{"start":13255.231,"end":13271.857,"text":"曾經的主委啊去做橫向聯繫但是說實在的這麼大的天災說實在有時候行政院長要出面有時候你們辦公室要去做橫向聯繫好那我特別啊就災後現在斷信的問題我剛剛也聽了"},{"start":13276.772,"end":13292.233,"text":"我們所有立法院的同仁啊大家都非常關心所以這個斷信是一個事實可是未來面對極端氣候這些斷信不是只有這一次喔所以現在沒有怪誰的問題"},{"start":13293.735,"end":13322.415,"text":"未來如何去面對這是很重要啊也是立法委員所提起的也是我們每一個政務官各部會都一定要去面對啊所以我還是希望啊當然在這個部分來 下一張我們看啦 像這些東西我們也沒有在指責台電我們也沒有在指責任何啊可以看得出來 這都是危險動作搶救一定要建立SOP"},{"start":13323.396,"end":13327.655,"text":"不管數位部不管是NCC你們的SOP到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":13329.301,"end":13355.581,"text":"當然救災有一定的規則有一定的規定但是SOP真的要去建立極端氣候之下不是只有這一次未來會更嚴重所以這個部分我還是要亡羊補牢啟齊各單位要提出這個SOP的建立這次的缺點是下一次的優點這才是真正的啊好 下一張"},{"start":13357.469,"end":13370.717,"text":"有沒有可能跟主委跟數位部來研究啦因為當然我們現在除了我們前瞻計畫有在補助這些衛星車的公有化這是很重要的"},{"start":13371.587,"end":13396.205,"text":"不是只有補助 那這個衛星公有化一定要去推 為什麼一定要去推衛星就遇到困難 斷信的時候 一定要去支援那我相信我們不管是嘉義啊 雲林啊 或者台南等等這些立法委員當然都有在協調這些可是如果你沒有公有化的時候"},{"start":13396.966,"end":13408.644,"text":"那確確實實在這個部分是我們中華電信沒有問題但是其他民營的這些電信公司他的配額度"},{"start":13410.031,"end":13435.956,"text":"不積極或者他的配合度不高的時候就會產生這些衛星車衛星車會凌亂無法去調試所以如果衛星車如果公有化的時候這是對我們這些斷信是有所幫助所以我本席提供這些給數位部給NCC來做參考來下一張"},{"start":13438.863,"end":13456.042,"text":"這個斷信我們今天委員也談了很多就那個漫遊說實在你想一想到他到國外就有辦法去借這種別的基地台他都有辦法漫遊可是我聽起來今天就是技術沒有問題"},{"start":13457.915,"end":13474.956,"text":"但是認證是有問題可是主委陳主委你也不是說故意不認證過去沒有這個事可是現在法規確實是有不足的地方那這些東西我本席比較建議的就是"},{"start":13475.737,"end":13501.64,"text":"今天是災害是法令要先擺在後面因為救災救命是最重要所以這個部分我還要建議我們陳主委啊也就是這個部分要突破法令的障礙盡快在危急的時候使用對這個案子比較有利因為我聽起來簡董事長已經講得很清楚"},{"start":13502.601,"end":13523.046,"text":"這些是沒有問題那這一次電信公司也是中華電信那中華電信你也知道民營都是跟我們租台嘛租往整個線路嘛所以在這個部分應該在救災的時候要發揮很大的功能也就是所有的東西要"},{"start":13524.336,"end":13536.856,"text":"統一來做這個動作所以我要拜託我們陳楚維在這個部分漫遊的部分儘快因為你明天要開會嘛所以要把這些法令不足"},{"start":13538.004,"end":13560.96,"text":"用其他去把它解決掉所謂的其他修華未做但是有其他特殊情況你們就可以去做這樣的問題不是錢的問題技術也沒有問題當然法規有問題這個漫遊可以解決這些救命的幾分鐘我是覺得這個部分還是要建議我們"},{"start":13561.741,"end":13589.676,"text":"主委在這個部分主委你說明天要開會你是抱持什麼態度給你一個時間我是抱持著為建立一套未來要適用的一個SOP跟長治久安的一個通案的機制那包括因為這個在電信管理法或者在網法這一塊的空間這一塊的機制過往完全沒有處理沒有操作過所以明天要找內政部跟數位部來一起來討論"},{"start":13593.361,"end":13609.355,"text":"主委你雖然是代理啦但是這段時間我還是較為認為你是比較稱職你是沒有顏色之分只是對NCC業務對跟錯這樣來執行所以這個部分我還是要特別"},{"start":13610.913,"end":13638.141,"text":"請主委你要把你的NCC獨立主委的這些精神去把它統合起來去把它做好認證的問題我相信不是問題應該是不是問題所以這個部分陳主委我還是要勉勵你不要在那邊推沒有意思因為未來一定會面對來最後一個我還是還是要建議也就是我們基地台的問題"},{"start":13639.902,"end":13654.8,"text":"這個檢董有很多技術性的問題你要提供給主管機關包括數位部包括我們陳主委這裡也就是基地台要有公有建的基地台的概念"},{"start":13655.612,"end":13683.268,"text":"不要中華電信自己設計因為中華電信本來你們是有衛星啊當然賴總統講的郭國文可以接得到啊但是其他人沒有辦法接得到啊因為其他民營他是以商業行為為主能夠不投資他就不投資可是我們中華電信不一樣啊所以有沒有可能基地台也有一種共有共有的這種概念"},{"start":13684.068,"end":13706.202,"text":"如果是這樣的話對於整個收信是有幫助的啊是有幫助 所以這一點我還要特別建議還有一點可能提供給三個單位做一個參考第一個從我們的這些設計的覆蓋率也就是越來越少越來越少 下一張越來越少申請案件"},{"start":13710.874,"end":13728.989,"text":"人家有些是客戶這些品質很重要所以你們應該要每一年設計越來越多可是你看每一年從107年這麼多到去年兩年設置越來越少那就很奇怪了"},{"start":13729.91,"end":13758.096,"text":"那為什麼品質會越來越差呢所以為什麼山上他接不到民間機構民間電信他接不到只有中華電信可以接得到所以這個部分我還是要建議為什麼會暴跌所以我還是希望我們三個單位要注意這些因為最後我還是要勉勵這個天災人命非常重要"},{"start":13759.016,"end":13784.152,"text":"沒有那個斷信確確實實沒水沒電然後沒有信息這是很痛苦的未來我們三基在整個台灣裡面三天都沒有電三天都沒有陰性就如同孤島是非常可怕的所以我還是希望陳主委還有我們這個切正志你們不要以為你們兩個單位"},{"start":13786.158,"end":13815.077,"text":"沒有什麼事你們兩個單位非常重要因為整個三基整個通信的部分都是你們兩個單位在負責所以我還是希望兩個單位要特別積極一下中華電信是我們台灣通信主要的一個這個我們民間國營投資的東西所以我要拜託這個事情刻不容緩盡快找出一個未來未以籌謀的問題"},{"start":13816.538,"end":13839.189,"text":"好不好 三位可以嗎可以 我要繼續努力好 謝謝謝謝委員執效謝謝林國成召委的質詢好 現在我們請邱若驊委員執行"},{"start":13847.629,"end":13852.776,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席先請肅發部缺次長好 肅發部缺政策"},{"start":13859.282,"end":13881.847,"text":"市長好本席在5月28日的時候有向NCC質詢過5G支費過高的問題當時NCC的陳代理主委主委他表示補助業者建置5G的基地台是速發部的責任所以今天要藉著這個機會向市長釐清一些問題先請部長簡單的說明一下有關速發部的5G業務有哪一些"},{"start":13891.42,"end":13897.53,"text":"112年到113年呢那我們已經持續補助電信業者建了15622台武器基地台"},{"start":13901.14,"end":13929.678,"text":"那一二年到一一三年呢這總的金額大概是六十七億那接下來也會針對這一個機場港口火車站大眾交通樞紐及人口密集處加速進行那再請教市長一個更基本的問題那請問現在電信業者協調5G支費是組織的單位是在哪裡是速發部還是NCC5G的支費是NCC那主席有請NCC陳代理主委那個陳代理主委"},{"start":13934.485,"end":13958.696,"text":"跟委員報告現在自費部分因為現在已經進入已經是相對的相當於這個完全競爭所以這邊大概零售價我們目前是基本上是沒有在管中間價格我們在討論自費之前那我先要講的是一個預算高達200多億的計畫因為部會交接所以現在全責不清不楚的我們先來看到2021年1月1號的時候NCC開始推動5G"},{"start":13960.377,"end":13983.567,"text":"補助無菌網路建設的計畫那我們看到當時的主管機關就是NCC那請問主委你們當時編列的預算是多少因為就是整個前章後來是後來會分家是因為數位不成立之後那當時編列了多少預算編列了多少我印象中好像是蠻高的當年度是第一期是154億"},{"start":13985.936,"end":14004.653,"text":"那到了2022年8月27號 速發部正式成立後NCC就把這個業務移交到速發部嘛那請教薛次長 您知道速發部接手之後這個案子你們編列了多少預算嗎我們前瞻第四期是67億4400萬然後第五期就是今年下半年是26億3250萬"},{"start":14007.196,"end":14022.089,"text":"那本席看到這邊是93.8億那主委我上次有請教過您5G基地台建設的問題你說是數巴布他是業務主管嘛那我們看到這個計畫的預算整個計畫的經費是218.7億那其中NCC編列了154億那佔了整體的62%那這代表什麼"},{"start":14029.767,"end":14054.487,"text":"是當年推110年後來我們已經執行完畢那後續因為組織改制蔣輔助的權責落在速發部所以後續的第四期第五期的前瞻計畫都有數位部隊執行那這個計畫最一剛開始最主要的執行者是在哪一個單位NCC所以就是你們NCC啊那你怎麼把自己當取外人那時候推給速發部以時間來看的話現在權責不在NCC這邊"},{"start":14056.208,"end":14074.433,"text":"現在不在NCC那2021年到現在政府已經砸了248億了那補助電信業者覆蓋5G的基地台那現在民眾最有感的不是訊號變強速度變快而是5G的支費怎麼那麼貴那我們看到NCC的統計第一季的行動通訊市場的資料那全國5G的用戶有1062萬戶那4G用戶有1817萬戶"},{"start":14080.195,"end":14096.076,"text":"那推的5G到現在已經整整5年了兩者的差距高達755萬戶那這個補助業者的5G基地來的計畫花了248億那200多億砸下來結果民眾還是用4G那這個成績NCC跟速發部你們滿意嗎"},{"start":14097.803,"end":14120.502,"text":"這邊是商業市場但是因為我覺得目前最大的缺乏就是它的關鍵的應用就是所謂的Killer Application這一塊目前全球目前都比較在用戶端的Killer Application目前相對比較沒有出現所以這邊它跟4G並存的時間會拖比較久會拖比較久"},{"start":14122.045,"end":14143.357,"text":"那剛剛您應該也有聽到蔡議員提到目前在災區4G的訊號跟5G的訊號5G的訊號大概是兩個那我們也希望5G可以普及化那現在主委您知道現在5G不限速吃到飽是多少錢嗎一般就是這邊講的一千多塊1399嗎 剛才蔡議員說1399跟599他們訊號的差別在哪裡那三大電信的4G吃到飽呢大概都499 599左右"},{"start":14152.665,"end":14164.616,"text":"是99599那也就是說這個他價差幾乎是兩倍那本席認為5G他不限速吃到飽的費率過高也是消費者他觀望的原因之一那你們花了248億然後再補助電信業者"},{"start":14167.739,"end":14186.106,"text":"至這個5G的基地台那結果費率一樣那麼貴那用戶也沒有增加那使用5G的民眾他們對5G的評價也不是很好那我相信這也是很多4G的用戶他們不轉5G的原因那到今天為止主委跟次長那這個200多月預算不如預期你們有沒有要檢討"},{"start":14189.67,"end":14209.566,"text":"這個我們持續都有在關注這個議題那也請業者自發性的看看有沒有提出一個5G的應用目前業者在土壁那一端大概推出有很多企業端的企業端土壁的一些方案來處理那土稀的部分大概就是要看是比較全球性的全球性的一些"},{"start":14210.146,"end":14232.687,"text":"比較關鍵是能夠滲透率比較高的應用目前大概還在全球都還在等待這個比較特殊比較好的方案來出現但是業者當然來促進這些結合AI的應用那些業者 商家業者都有很積極在努力所以主委您是說就是NCC是目前主則費率是在NCC沒有錯吧"},{"start":14234.626,"end":14262.117,"text":"這個管制是在NCC沒錯那你們不去跟業者做溝通嗎有都有溝通那上一次溝通是什麼時候其實在五月的時候有向您提問過嘛也跟你討論過資費過高的問題那你們之後有去跟業者討論嗎其實我們會有個X值計畫那些大概每年都會找業者來開會討論因為但是四年一次訂然後都會滾動式檢討大概都會中間價格那一部分的我們都有跟業者大概"},{"start":14262.577,"end":14287.951,"text":"跟您確認你說四年檢討一次嗎X值是四年檢討一次但是其他的最近一次檢討是在什麼時候大概應該是兩年前已經是兩年前了在今年五月的時候向您提出目前業者的說法是什麼目前就是因為我們那時是會有聯動物價指數所以那一塊其實是有滾動是在處理的"},{"start":14289.284,"end":14303.582,"text":"上一次滾動式 你們滾動式檢討 那最近一次是在什麼時候我們SG公告還是一樣在兩年前嗎公告是應該是兩年前但是持續的一些價格調所以你根本就沒有去找業者做溝通嘛"},{"start":14305.094,"end":14321.782,"text":"因為我們還有界定市場業者給你們的說法是什麼三大電信業者目前5G的使用戶數然後還有費率的問題這個問題包括我剛剛講說5G的部分他們會持續在推他的應用那"},{"start":14323.925,"end":14334.698,"text":"資費的部分大概從4G、3G以後大概都是跟全世界接軌都是管中間價格零售價格大概我們都是讓業者來商業自由競爭"},{"start":14337.506,"end":14359.395,"text":"那5G的普及跟實現智慧生活只是空話嗎因為你們是主責單位啊沒有 其實這個當初在業者開台的時候我們有行政指導他們說要能夠加惠消費者那在合併案的時候那兩家也有提出一些相對應的一些優惠方案"},{"start":14361.004,"end":14383.533,"text":"但是我們認為說市場市場沒有失利的情況之下他會充分進展化業者大概都會提出一個吸引客戶的一些方案那1399是所謂的排告價其實有很多是他們有些綁約長期大客戶等等都會那實際的價格其實是有空間在處理你覺得下一次檢討的時候是什麼時候下一次"},{"start":14386.397,"end":14415.009,"text":"因為是 若是X值的話是四年一次若是兩年前 那下一次就是屆滿前一年就會討論其實明年 今年就會再討論OK好 那最後這一次鄧大師的風災嘛造成台南還有嘉義的災情嚴重那不只是災區那本席也要向抒發部還有向NCC這邊提出那不只是災區那桃園的復興山區最近也有很多民眾反映訊號不佳再請抒發部還有NCC來做瞭解"},{"start":14415.694,"end":14442.419,"text":"好我們會請業者來教授改進OK好謝謝主委謝謝委員好謝謝邱若驊委員的執行現在請李坤臣委員執行謝謝主席我們先請這個速發部的這個好速發部切正事好"},{"start":14446.647,"end":14447.208,"text":"大家都很關心有關於台灣這個通信"},{"start":14453.258,"end":14475.704,"text":"韌性的問題 那其實在這次風災 不論是丹納斯風災或是說這次的這一個南部的豪大雨其實都受到這個嚴格的一個挑戰那這個是當然這個是在7月22號的報導 丹納斯颱風過了之後的災後的16天那仍然在這個七股 布袋 台南 還有嘉義這些地區還有地方成為這個通訊的孤島"},{"start":14478.205,"end":14493.13,"text":"那這個NCC那邊也說過說 那這個基地台已經有修復了但是災區為何還有通訊的問題 他還要去了解那我相信這是災後第16天 那我們看一下按照你們這個今天給的這個數據 到7月31號通訊設備還有設備的這個修復的情況"},{"start":14498.391,"end":14510.841,"text":"那我請問一下 除了速發部還有這個NCC代理主委 回答一下那這個是到7月31號不論是試劃 寬頻 MOD 行動基地台 電信桿等等那何時能夠完全修復咧"},{"start":14514.017,"end":14537.315,"text":"委員報告這塊涉及到業者的修復能量因為近期業者也有持續在努力近期因為部分有水災所以有些出動的工班人力當地區恐怕受到一點影響那以中華電信的話他們市化部分他們是預計大概在8月15左右可以大部分的完成那其他的電信業者勒"},{"start":14538.467,"end":14559.539,"text":"其他電線主要是以行動行動的部分其實是恢復目前大概恢復到90%以上的涵蓋那涵蓋不足災前部分會用旁邊的天線調整角度跟行動車來去彌補所以行動部分其實比過往部分要容易來修復市化跟寬頻是可以在8月15號以這個目標來努力"},{"start":14563.718,"end":14583.755,"text":"這個齁已經災後到現在那大概如果到8月15號已經接近快一個半月了所以你就知道說萬一啦這個還沒有到這一個所謂的這個戰爭的考驗但是光是風災給我們的考驗就讓我們大家想說這個未來未來如果說這一個不論是這一個這些風災"},{"start":14585.376,"end":14614.617,"text":"甚至地震造成這些影響對我們這個通信設備通信的韌性的確會造成很大的影響我接下來就請一下次長因為其實我看這個速發部一直有在強調這一個通訊網路的這個韌性那也一直提到說我們有所謂的這一個低軌的衛星中軌的衛星然後你們在去年的九月的時候也在你們的這一個粉絲團有講說這個現在全台都可以收到速發部所推動的非同步軌道衛星"},{"start":14615.117,"end":14628.266,"text":"所以如果在這個重大災難的時候呢這個全台除了這個包含離島都可以順暢的使用通訊還有這個線上會議的應用的服務但是很明顯這一次的這個風災裡面這整個整個破供了"},{"start":14633.972,"end":14661.897,"text":"這到底原因是哪裡是造成這個原因這個是你們去年跟我們大家講的萬一你遇到風災了你遇到這些情況了因為我們有低軌衛星因為我們有中軌衛星那所以我們通訊不會受到影響跟我們報告就是說這一次去參與救災的五十幾台這個行動經濟台裡面有三十台是配備低軌衛星只有三十台現在全台灣只有三十台配備這個低軌衛星的這個接收器嗎"},{"start":14663.457,"end":14666.639,"text":"配備接收器的行動通訊車只有30台這很明顯不夠啊那你們有想到說這個會造成這種情況嗎"},{"start":14675.018,"end":14699.559,"text":"跟我們報告就是說去年地震的時候我只有一台那地震的時候的檢討是花蓮那個地震那花蓮那個是局部的那我們就檢討說那時候只有一台但是我必須8個小時才能夠從高雄把車開過去所以我們才建了30台就是在全台灣根據災害應變中心的分區每一區有幾台那30台顯見也不夠嘛"},{"start":14701.236,"end":14725.796,"text":"對 這個只能針對點就是說你任何的行動通訊車它能夠處理的範圍都是點因為行動通訊車的天線高度不夠按照這次的風災的情況來講 30台明顯不夠那你認為大概要幾台才能夠確保這次的通訊不中斷我們過去是有規劃一份5年要增加到2500個Terminal的計畫長程的計畫是這樣規劃2500個什麼的計畫2500個接收器接收器 那車子咧"},{"start":14731.962,"end":14760.777,"text":"車子沒有規劃在裡面那你有接收器沒有車子那目前我們在下一期的前瞻計畫每一家業者會再增加3台車子然後我會把原來的原來90幾台車子會補助他先把衛星的支架還有衛星的相關設備先裝好那所以今年年底你可以預計可以增加到幾台呢今年年底車子會增加9台然後改裝好的車子會增加大概30台"},{"start":14763.145,"end":14785.373,"text":"31台所以加起來我們才80幾台我問你80幾台的話如果這次的風災我們有80幾台的話確保它通訊不中斷嗎不可能那所以沒有用嗎那你認為要幾台我們先不要管運算我要講的就是說車子不可能去補過往"},{"start":14786.898,"end":14812.294,"text":"當然啊衛星也不可能去補但是就是說在你需要它的時候因為你過你需要多一點時間嘛但是這種行動車的話就比較及時也比較快速那哪邊通訊有問題就可以馬上補上去嘛是對但是但是面對這種大規模的1260幾台的故障其實應該去找根因那我們找出來的根因就是電力佔40%光纖網路佔50%所以"},{"start":14815.936,"end":14845.06,"text":"所以我們馬上調整前瞻計畫就是針對發電機然後還有這些你買發電機也沒有用啊我看你是每一台車子配發電機嗎不是車子配發電機是發電機要行動發電機要讓這些固定的基地台使用因為我們去分析發現有40%的基站他有網站他有網路但是他沒有電那這時候如果你可以給他小型的發電機他可以多撐幾可以多撐多久"},{"start":14846.726,"end":14872.296,"text":"發電機如果有兩台的話可以輪流開因為那種緊急的發電機都不能持續的一直開所以當你有兩台的時候你輪流開就可以那有油料的時候它就可以撐下去但是這又會牽涉到一個問題就如果那個地方淹水你油送不進去或發電機送不進去就會有問題那你怎麼去解決呢那這個演練都沒有問題我看你們這個去年有演練今年有演練演練都沒有什麼問題但是遇到風災整個就破功啦我們"},{"start":14875.014,"end":14886.509,"text":"的確就是說我們原來的準備是針對點那現在面對的是屬於大規模的你可能雲林嘉義台南都可能有那未來可能規模有可能在擴大"},{"start":14888.401,"end":14909.588,"text":"對委員說得非常有道理所以我們其實像上禮拜天我在災害應變中心晚上就是跟內政部劉部長在討論有哪些事情還可以繼續做那很多後續的政策的轉向都是在災害應變中心大家在那邊顧的時候至少這次就很明顯了你就是說發電機的問題"},{"start":14911.346,"end":14923.12,"text":"過往的問題然後我們行動這個衛星行動車不足的問題這些都是問題這個一次風災出來之後就出現這麼問題主席抱歉我再問最後一個問題剛剛有很多委員問到這個這個網路漫遊的問題那"},{"start":14927.285,"end":14943.261,"text":"漫遊我看你們這個去年的報告有講到嗎你們說這個漫遊也有這個有可以跨越者的漫遊啊也可以災難的漫遊啊還可以一直往路的漫遊啊等等那我問一下這一次這次的風災有哪一項有哪一項有做到了"},{"start":14945.151,"end":14972.824,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的漫遊是蘇衛部就那個就是特殊時期比方說戰爭時期或者緊急這次風災也是一樣啊那過往的漫遊國內漫遊過往在電信法時期是不許可的那現在的電信管理法有接接災防法是有個空間處理那但是國內沒有沒有這個跨越者漫遊在去年的報告蘇發布報告我就看到了那是PoC是概念認證"},{"start":14974.844,"end":14990.239,"text":"概念認證 那所以咧是什麼意思是技術可行 答案就是技術可行然後真正緊急命令後怎麼樣發布時期那本來就可以switch過去 那是沒有問題的那現在是平成時期那所以現在呢 現在正式風災是因為法令的問題沒辦法去使用嗎"},{"start":14992.401,"end":15010.081,"text":"應該說是過往完全沒有使用過的經驗電信法實際是不許可的那現在有空間電信法不許可那但是技術上許可那現在是誰的問題是電信法的問題要修電信法嗎電信管理法已經有空間了我們明天會開會來爬樹釐青做相關部位像內政部或數位部可以怎麼來協力那這樣也"},{"start":15011.983,"end":15039.446,"text":"我覺得有點可笑啦就是說技術上可行那我看速發部上面有寫說那災難發生的時候我們一個可以用這個跨越層漫遊你今天中華電信的不行我可以用遠程我可以用這個台灣大哥大結果你現在跟我講說電信法 不行對 蘇衛部那是指說特殊時期假設今天在風災就算是特殊時期啦過往因為就是極端氣候以往沒有預期說會發生這麼大規模以往是點的話大概一般行動機機台開過去都OK了好 那所以現在你們要做什麼樣的法令的修改"},{"start":15040.286,"end":15058.671,"text":"目前還暫時但明天開完會確定確定是哪些東西要補強那明天開完會才能夠比較清楚那如果萬一下次再發生這種大規模的風災的話跨越者漫遊或戰略漫遊可不可以用我們就是希望建立這個SOP我看你們去年的"},{"start":15062.406,"end":15089.511,"text":"去年的這個報告裡面就有提到說要建立SOP了啊就去年年底要建立SOP了啊那個都是特殊時期暫停期那個都已經建立好了那風災不算風災因為就是明天才要檢討大規模的風災這個過往是比較沒有這個情況這個會造成民怨我老實講這會造成民怨這個風災更容易比你所謂講那個戰爭的時期更容易遇到啊那結果我們竟然沒有這個SOP對所以我們要建立"},{"start":15090.505,"end":15101.169,"text":"那所以何時呢?明天開會完成就知道了嗎?明天開完會之後我們會盡快的來處理啦最後我再問一下次長,你們這次這一個業務費有關這一個獎補助費被刪減掉這一個8.2億,對這一次的這個風災有沒有什麼受到影響?"},{"start":15112.803,"end":15140.63,"text":"跟委員報告就是當然因為整體的計畫進度都會落後比如說剛剛講的低軌衛星的接收器那今年我沒有任何預算可以增加所以我用的就是去年拿到的這700多個那我們手上只有190幾個那為什麼我只剩190幾個因為我付不起這個通訊費所以內政部拿去的跟國防部拿去的要請他自己付"},{"start":15142.164,"end":15166.652,"text":"所以今年呢?今年就沒有增加新的接收器就對了?沒有,今年沒有增加新的接收器那這樣怎麼辦?被砍掉的8.2億怎麼辦?你們那個書面資料給那個昆城委員造成什麼樣的影響?你要跟大家講啊好不好?預算這樣造成什麼樣的影響要跟大家講啊好不好?好,謝謝委員好,謝謝主席"},{"start":15168.615,"end":15194.615,"text":"好 謝謝餘坤城委員的執行現在請謝龍介委員執行謝謝我請這個台電好 台電喜富總經理能源署 中華電信 蘇華部NCC"},{"start":15197.915,"end":15215.381,"text":"我們翁主任秘書還有我們鄭政次還有我們陳主委檢董事在台電你先答一下一般的風災 太陽能費要多少你們說的意思是說它還有部分的發電"},{"start":15228.142,"end":15253.326,"text":"是是吧是那我想要跟委員報告沒關係啦有的有的就是說太陽能毀損除非是全面性的否則毀損了20%那其他80%大概它就還有70%可以把電到潰線透過潰線到我們電網對不對好就看它沿途如果說有一個據點沒問題了這樣了解好感謝你啊能源署也有來嘛"},{"start":15258.099,"end":15269.591,"text":"開會就是要解決問題嘛那能源署就是說這個太陽零零管在潰線台電開那一支那麼這個潰線裡面可以潰一條網路線嗎應該可以這原本潰線的公路"},{"start":15281.92,"end":15289.202,"text":"蘇華部 你說有算刪掉它 刪得很可憐 你問我沒有錢可以買衛生紙給人家簽名剛才委員 委員在問你說 刪了都沒有錢 刪一半也要一半如果經濟也可以採用有算過衛生紙都沒有辦法做事情 你還在這裡叫我很可憐感謝委員的講 你覺得真的都沒有錢可以做"},{"start":15311.55,"end":15327.401,"text":"你敢這樣說嗎所以要有良心 國安要有警覺頭可以做多少算多少譬如說因應災變 因應戰爭 真正沒辦法需要調壓大家共同來針對無損及其這都可以討論 這樣就變成理性了是不是我告訴你 你這樣做的不白 聽了到你會白"},{"start":15342.537,"end":15365.963,"text":"基地台 我請教中華電信你剛才還在說要用那個塔果 蘇花布 還說要用發電機我請教你在現在中華電信 不管其他業者你現在有沒有還在使用全向的基地台有啊有嘛 專用的有 定用的也有嘛海濱這麼空闊"},{"start":15370.751,"end":15396.113,"text":"您在發生風態之後,你有沒有加大功率?你剛才說的,NCC台電的電信跟電信夾車,有跟你申請加大功率嗎?我們有跟他講說只要符合規範,他們的調整這段時間有沒有嘛他們沒有回報,但是我們他說要改善,一般是調整天線角度不是啦,董事長"},{"start":15398.066,"end":15410.044,"text":"中華電信 現在要漫遊 其實今天就可以做所有的data都有你吃到一斤的芒果 吃多少 吃幾分鐘 聽小怎麼聽 其實你們三間電信公司完全沒問題"},{"start":15413.072,"end":15433.177,"text":"所以剛才NCC在說,這災防法比較有辦法解決,現在補分有自愛難行主席我是建議說,邀請下去進步,我們要開一個聯席,心責,給他促成其實現在就要做一件事,要萬倍嘛,因為大家受得了,沒有人要省錢喝我們現在要跳小,怎麼會不跳"},{"start":15441.621,"end":15463.072,"text":"只要一個災害 緊急 應變一個命令下來 其實屬澳中央電信跟其他的電信公司聽起來 我要說我市場電信公司還不算我就在做電信啊所以我跟你說你基地台 你說沒電 我請問你基地台裡面 幾噸沒檢查mattery啊"},{"start":15469.242,"end":15478.847,"text":"委員替你報告,基地台的電力是一段時間都會檢測,那不是基地台電力的問題一段時間可以檢測,你備用電力多久,你設定幾點鐘讓NCC說,你對著基地台設定,備用電力需要多少空運行的起碼要能夠續電4小時,那高抗災要72小時"},{"start":15493.693,"end":15507.317,"text":"70里休息那這是屬於規格標好的為什麼停電後後期在台有的失靈有的還在運作有的失靈我就影響我電信你們剛才討論費率599到699到799我奇怪過過分有信了我比較會沒有我2699吃到飽我是你們的VIP我2699吃幾頓你知道嗎"},{"start":15522.298,"end":15534.002,"text":"為什麼我到長沙也沒電 你的行動通訊車有在那郭國文不錯 他調兩台在那我也沒有 我也沒有信號你們是大小人看我要去勘測總要把我當掉嗎我也沒有啊 我還吃那個現場年輕人他吃到你們的基地台 吃到你們行動機立台的信號我還吃他的 我還連結他的"},{"start":15549.4,"end":15568.516,"text":"所以我在這裡要跟你們說 蔓藥也好 要做一件事 但是不要拖了啦主席 我覺得這個再拖就沒意思了這樣是需要雷震波移交災防法 下令說現在這時就可以跨越別蔓藥 蔓藥之後 因為鐵燒燒燒你們都沒問題嘛"},{"start":15572.603,"end":15591.877,"text":"很簡單的 這些東西炸就都將控在你們手裡所以不需要去提這個模糊嘛現在就是說 災苦 我剛才在跟你們說 開火 要有一個應變細胞 太陽能做這麼多 美麗的大地 跟無親台灣 給你們囤大到這樣不然你們也回饋一下就是說太陽能興起的時候 真的天災地變來你們也不怕 八月 九月 十月 還有可能的風災來"},{"start":15602.678,"end":15627.438,"text":"風災再來 會變成怎樣?所以在基地台每一個基地台的挑釁所 要把電送回去台電的電盤的時候在這個地方 我請問你 能建立一個臨時的替駕22管7樓管的避充電塔嗎?其實那是完全沒有的 這只有一個結構問題當時剛才我說的意思是什麼 你聽到沒有?"},{"start":15632.796,"end":15641.723,"text":"所以你們電網都回電的時候 電位條倒了沒電的時候 但是這條零層海邊這裡的太陽能發電是有電的它的電要送到你的電網也送不回來坦白講 開線可以送到 但是電位條你們送不進來是不是這樣 大家聽到是不是這樣它發電送到處理 我這裡的發電送到處理到你的電網 但是我在這裡沒電能吃"},{"start":15661.107,"end":15676.474,"text":"我請問你 這樣可以在當地這個挑釁所在那裡的電不要說給社區這裡 因為社區就是說緊急救災所要用的電可以直接對這個挑釁所噴出來在現場做一個緊急的韌性 強化的你們每次都說韌性 這就可以強化韌性你們撐那裡的 利誘誘的太陽能公司 怎麼不蓋這個火花"},{"start":15688.615,"end":15698.185,"text":"我講這樣執行上有問題嗎 兩件事這一部分的話我們要請台電公司 也請台電來 台電來技術上有問題嗎來請台電來技術上是可行"},{"start":15705.769,"end":15728.352,"text":"不要說可行啦 但是啊 但是的能言俗慣的啊NCC要求的啊 司法部給他要求的啊主席這是很簡單的事情 但是沒有人要去做也沒有人要去接人 也沒有人要去接那些地方你想想有多少案中 那多少案中 一百案中就可以有一百的基地台"},{"start":15729.315,"end":15745.821,"text":"臨時的 所以我剛才跟你說 虧欠為什麼因為中華電信你做一條顧問日 那不開很多錢 因為功勞都好了嘛電算好 董事長你跟我說 功勞都好的情形台電的開算功勞都好的時候 拜託你中華電信配一條顧問 光線顧問日 要開很多錢嗎不用啦 齁 董事長我講這樣有理嗎很清楚 這樣是不是問題要解決啦"},{"start":15756.527,"end":15763.396,"text":"結果 大家現在很好的問題聽了以後 真可惜啦 國家用這麼多資源 不用這麼多公務人員大家都不敢講真話 都要配合他說 啊沒有錢喔 有勝算啦齁 你沒有錢能做啦齁"},{"start":15772.089,"end":15795.91,"text":"聽到心情痛 災民在那裡很辛苦 你聽得懂嗎你看災苦的人 不要說人家在表演了 解救就救了這是你可以做 你要了解 災民在那裡沒水沒電 最主要一定是沒消息 這是他最恐慌 內心的恐慌會從這裡來可是今天你的忙喔 幸好讓他在外面可以聯絡 他就不會怕 他心就不會怕"},{"start":15800.578,"end":15814.002,"text":"明確在這裡 所以我建議說你們看保安也好 NCC也好 事劃部也好 台電也好 臨環署我剛才在講這個問題 其實是未有中邮 不認可肯證人家說好聽就要有這些負擔 你看他給我們賺錢賺錢 一個暗中給我們賺幾百億叫他給我們蓋一個基底起來 一個鐵塔起來"},{"start":15823.339,"end":15838.202,"text":"建立一基二十米的鐵塔一筆不惜技術這樣建立我們臨時村子整個都廢物了基地都廢物了我們可以臨時建置因為怎樣?當地有電源有古往潰線董事長我說這樣有理嗎沒理?有啦 如果有電都能基地有電的問題我替你解決啦嘛 好不好感謝您謝謝我們謝龍介"},{"start":15856.378,"end":15885.157,"text":"謝謝我們謝榮介委員的執行那特別因為他剛剛提出一些解決之道啊其實是可以做的你們不要發現問題都不解決問題那委員都已經提出來這些解決問題把他納入未以籌謀整個規劃因為極端氣候真的需要大家認真的去幫忙好不好來接下來我們翁曉琳委員執行"},{"start":15895.621,"end":15915.527,"text":"好 主席好 在這邊我先有請肅發部的 肅發部來 崔市長然後NCC的陳 陳主委然後在韓辦公室的王主任以及中華電信好 中華電信前前董事長 還有我們王主任"},{"start":15922.177,"end":15945.035,"text":"大家好是這樣子的這個這次的丹納斯颱風的災情確實是造成中南部的通訊這個破壞受損很嚴重那麼我知道其實中華電信還有包含NCC壓縮發布然後在房辦公室在這個過程當中其實也很盡心盡力的希望能夠儘速的搶救恢復通訊但是我們知道這個"},{"start":15947.737,"end":15963.553,"text":"這個過程其實坦白說對於很多的受災民眾來講還是覺得時間太緩慢尤其是我們看到有好些地區一直拖拖到現在可能還沒有辦法全部恢復那麼這個已經從這個風災發生到現在已經大概也二十來天了"},{"start":15968.277,"end":15987.933,"text":"那麼當然就是這幾天的這個又下大好雨那可能又造成就是搶救是極為困難但是呢本席在這裡想要跟你們請教就是因為事實上災防中心這個依照就災害防救法它本來就應該有一套就是各個部會的這個災防計畫那請問到底NCC跟速發部有沒有這樣的做這個災防計畫"},{"start":15995.371,"end":16023.923,"text":"跟我們報告災害防救計畫我們就有依據這個災防法請業者都是要提報然後我們會來審理然後也請他們定期每兩年都要報一次然後要更新這是事前的那事中如果發生天然災害這個具有機制我們只要是災防辦那邊或者海警成立的時候我們跟業者都會成立應變中心然後"},{"start":16024.463,"end":16027.606,"text":"都會有災情的一些協助來回應 回饋處理是 謝謝陳書偉因為我聽您這樣說的話好像似乎是業者提出這個災防計畫但是呢其實依照災害防救法的這個相關規定"},{"start":16041.096,"end":16069.675,"text":"行政院可能是當然的這個災害防救匯報的召集人那其他的機關其實也都有這個責任必須要去擬定相關的計畫那麼所以就NCC跟述發部你們過去從來沒有提過類似這種遇到大規模的通訊災害的時候要怎麼緊急處理至少你們要有一個統籌的能力因為從這一次的情況來看發現說一旦當機地台整個都受損那麼其他的這個救援的通訊機制"},{"start":16071.397,"end":16093.917,"text":"就是沒有辦法銜接起來或是銜接的很好所以你們之前都沒有各個速發部跟NCC都沒有相關的計畫嗎跟我們報告您提的問題分兩個層次第一個層次就是關鍵基礎設施它本來就有關鍵基礎設施的應變計畫那這一個只要它被列為通傳的關鍵基礎設施我們都"},{"start":16094.878,"end":16115.238,"text":"都有去檢驗他的應變計畫那也有做演練那第二個是在災防的時候呢災防的時候速發部跟NCC都是在災害應變中心的水電維生組裡面那我們的同仁也都會到新店的災害應變中心去值班"},{"start":16115.879,"end":16144.066,"text":"那在每一次的會議也都會統計基地台跟這個通訊車派遣的情況那這些調度也都是在應變中心的架構裡面下的指令好了解了但是就是說從這次看起來似乎就是說你們的應變的這個處理的狀況還並不是很理想那麼當然從今天你們報告裡面有看到就說你們當時也其實也緊急了也調派了這個行動基地台車那麼請問一下各個電信業者當時個別是有幾輛"},{"start":16145.98,"end":16173.383,"text":"還是全部都是中華電信的行動基地台的車三家都有 總共136台30台是智能衛星的那中華電信本身就50台然後其他的電信業者其他電信業者 台哥大跟遠傳的他們行動基地台的車大概也就只有十幾二十部囉不只不只 但是有衛星 有智能衛星oneweb的時候各10台 各13家各10台而已"},{"start":16173.803,"end":16197.691,"text":"是 可是現在就是支援OneWeb衛星的不是只有中華電信嗎就是中華電信沒有沒有沒有 三家都有都是自衛部補助他們一家十台是 在今年五月的時候我其實有在交通的總諮詢當中有問過說現在OneWeb的這個設置狀況怎麼樣當時陳主委是說2024年的年底就全部都可以建置完畢"},{"start":16199.523,"end":16214.599,"text":"應該說他已經拿到我們那個審議合格所以他已經可以那去年前年以來數位部是在做POC實驗那現在已經他可以正式商轉那未來就是數位部本身有個700多點的計畫已經進行前端計畫進行了好幾年"},{"start":16217.142,"end":16234.457,"text":"因為你們之前並沒有說要把這個OneWeb拿來做商轉所以這也是當時本席在總諮詢的時候有提出為什麼未來不朝向商轉的這樣的可能性你們現在看起來就是做這個OneWeb的低軌衛星只是為了就是發生這種緊急狀況災害的時候要提出救援"},{"start":16237.654,"end":16253.935,"text":"對不對那但是在這一次發生這麼重大災害的時候我們看到其實這個利用低軌衛星的這個通訊的這個狀況也沒有說那麼好對所以這部分是不是應該通盤檢討而且本席在這裡要提醒就是說其實除了one wave之外還有starlinks"},{"start":16254.575,"end":16275.286,"text":"這個是全世界現在使用率最多的而且現在很多的手機基本上都已經支援Starlink或者是這個OneWave當然Starlink是因為它的這個佈局率是最高的所以你們現在是不是因為經過了這次的風災水災之後有沒有考慮就是認真考慮要開放"},{"start":16276.72,"end":16299.485,"text":"跟委員報告我們國內其實一直都持開放態度兩三年前中華電信或者其他業其實都有在跟STARLINK在談那目前就是先前STARLINK他是有其他的考量也比較沒有意願在台灣落地其實他現在要落地的話他先前講的幾個他覺得是問題的其實都不是問題第一個他說"},{"start":16300.985,"end":16318.771,"text":"那當時最大的問題就是法規上面的障礙嗎他認為是外資比例那一塊其實外資比例那一塊其實不是問題因為電信法時期到現在這條規則都沒有改變但是電信法時期的海覽業者那時候所謂的一列業者都要符合這個外資比例的法尊其實都可以操作都有問題那他最大的問題為什麼他不願意來台灣呢"},{"start":16324.009,"end":16351.224,"text":"因為那不是他的選擇我們中華電信也很努力去跟他談當然我們看到了其他的新聞報導好像似乎是台灣政府這邊不是很有意願開放不過我是真的認為說經過這一次的這麼重大的風災水災之後我們發現其實光是靠傳統的這種基地台或是最普遍的一般基地台的這種機制是不夠的那麼低軌衛星這個是必然的趨勢而且就像我講的其實現在很多國家都已經開放商轉了"},{"start":16352.705,"end":16372.946,"text":"如果說未來能夠讓很多的民眾當他沒有辦法連接到一般行動通訊的時候可以直接連接到低軌衛星的話這個基本上對於救災來講絕對是有幫助那我也希望就是書發部跟NCC兩個機關能夠認真的思考要朝向這方面去做開放那麼至於就是說到底什麼原因"},{"start":16373.366,"end":16383.981,"text":"以至於就說STOLIX不願意來台灣這個落地來做商轉是不是可以請NCC或是書發部到底哪個機關是主管機關可以給我一份報告"},{"start":16385.877,"end":16396.625,"text":"外資比例這邊目前是NCC管我們會寫一份報告給你還有就是說其他的這個原因到底現在的這個瓶頸是在哪邊可以兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告說好嗎好 我們盡快好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝翁曉琳委員的執行現在請習滬葵委員執行"},{"start":16416.958,"end":16436.293,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們抒發部我們的政次好 抒發部邱政次NCC我們陳代理主委好 NCC陳主委中華電信簡董事長好 中華電信簡董事長還有台電徐副總台電徐副總您好"},{"start":16438.444,"end":16458.616,"text":"謝謝大家辛苦了那我想這一次是針對我們丹納斯颱風還有最近的這個豪大雨針對我們南部地區災後的這個通訊中斷的一個復原機制來做討論但是我想這個我記得去年我們去年也接連好幾個颱風包含這個康納山陀爾好幾個颱風"},{"start":16460.097,"end":16482.689,"text":"清洗我們整個南部地區那我當時我記得我在委員會我就特別提出這個高抗災的基地台的一個設置還有所有一個電力系統的一個修復的一個建議然後我想我們就是因為過去屏東縣是一個颱風很容易清洗的一個縣市所以我想過去我們從屏東縣政府我們結合中央我們做了很多的努力"},{"start":16483.209,"end":16492.273,"text":"那我們也期待這個水電通訊這些民生的設施必須要有這樣的一個韌性我想應該在座幾位都同意這樣的一個論調不過從這一次的這個剛剛這次委員會討論到現在我個人是蠻失望的"},{"start":16500.416,"end":16519.683,"text":"因為我聽到的我們不是未雨綢繆在做很多的討論而是大家不要抱抱就不要抱聽起來真的是很可悲所以我想我們在座幾位我想還是有幾個問題期待未來大家要共同趕快盡快來努力的部分我想這次剛剛大家都提到"},{"start":16520.203,"end":16548.945,"text":"基地台為什麼會有一個出現大的問題當然電力中斷是一個很大的因素那當然這個電力中斷因為我們過去我們的這個尤其我們這個廢六都我們有山區有沿海地區我們記得這個整個對於這個風力對於這個颱風的一個侵襲我們這個承受力的部分那尤其大家都說這一次這個陣風高達十幾級這真的很恐怖但是我想未來隨著極端氣候的一個影響"},{"start":16550.593,"end":16574.068,"text":"因為災害有可能會越來越多而且越來越大這不是我們可以預估所以我們必須要做更大的一個準備更好的一個因應才對啦所以我想針對這個基地台跟這個電力的部分我們還是期待這個NCC跟蘇發部一個是管理這個經費輔助一個是關電信業者怎麼樣整合這個平台我還是很期待聽到你們的答案各位請你們答覆一下"},{"start":16576.201,"end":16594.228,"text":"我這邊先簡單跟你們報告這是風災基台通信不通大概三個原因大概前面那個說不也有說明大概基台本身被摧毀然後基台沒有電然後基台後端的傳輸壞掉比方說那個光影線都他附掛在電線桿上都斷掉了"},{"start":16597.509,"end":16622.251,"text":"所以要處理就是這三個區塊那如果機台要讓它長得更強更強韌 韌性更好的話就高抗災是個解方之一那電力的部分那如果是高抗災本身那個它可以撐72小時最貴也沒問題那另外就是說找公有建地或者說台電來在他們的建築物上來蓋因為本身它會有那個"},{"start":16623.252,"end":16643.4,"text":"緊急電源這塊電力部分也相對沒問題在傳輸的部分這個事情我去年就提過了比如說我舉例來講嘛我們六都就是有區公所我們非六都都有鄉鎮公所我們看到狀況與商業會連鄉鎮公所自己的電力都癱瘓通區都不通他怎麼當指揮中心怎麼去調度這是大問題啊"},{"start":16644.72,"end":16658.565,"text":"這部分我去年就已經提醒要建置這樣的一個設備好像到目前為止也都沒得討論沒得說連我們的指揮中心都癱瘓怎麼樣去協助災民真的都沒有我們真的都沒有去面對這樣的一個困境然後第二個"},{"start":16659.825,"end":16687.962,"text":"剛剛提到我們業者 除了中華電信當然是我們的龍頭嘛那其他兩家業者 我想這個每一年我們看到 大家都賺很多錢啦但是我們的社會責任跟企業責任在哪裡遇到事情的時候 我們到底有多少的人力跟這個通訊設備能夠去支援災區我們也講不出一個數據嘛大家都要等一星期 等兩星期 等三星期難道要這樣子無止盡的下去等待嗎總是要有一個解決的一個方案啊"},{"start":16689.283,"end":16707.356,"text":"跟委員說明7月6號以後到試電恢復之前其實業者有就他們所能動用的資源調派行動機器車都過去然後其他機台毀損情況輕微的他們去維修然後也讓他的備用電源"},{"start":16708.638,"end":16722.634,"text":"有油機的部分去補充柴油去發電這塊就是在當時他的條件之下他能夠做的他們大概都已經做了中華電信當然是相對他們在其他過往的比較強壯說他們這邊整體的情況會復原的更快一點"},{"start":16728.313,"end":16747.763,"text":"呃 主委我還是要提醒就是說剛剛講的嘛 你說那個我們建棟有在說我們用發電機嘛齁啊有的收台漏掉不通 還是沒辦法 油就沒夠 還是要怎麼辦啊這些不是只有災民欸 還有連救災隊伍進去之後 他們怎麼去做一個通訊的聯繫這些都是大問題 有沒有什麼樣補救的一個方案"},{"start":16750.363,"end":16776.941,"text":"像這幾天水災在某些偏鄉地區我們行動業者想要進去維修可是路就不通啊工程車也沒有辦法進去所以這種情況要對應的解決方式說那基台如果蓋得夠穩夠壯的話它就相對是風險會比較低但是如果當地發生土石流那大概也是相對比較沒有辦法處理但是如果說高空災能夠有建的話那風險係數會比較低一點"},{"start":16778.982,"end":16797.948,"text":"對啦,所以這個過去我們在沿海地區我們也要求台電嘛因為過去台電為什麼這個沿海的電感很脆弱因為長期被這個海水侵蝕之後所以加強這個基底的一個穩固性也是未來我們建設基地台要強化的一個部分啦你不能用一般的標準啦這10幾噸的標準,你要延伏15幾噸的,你也要倒移"},{"start":16800.809,"end":16821.646,"text":"我想這個未來建制基地台一定要有這個真的要超任性的一個基準來建立然後我們剛剛提到那個低軌衛星的行動基地台請問一下目前我們各縣市都有配置嗎跟委員報告就是我們總共有30台那是依據災害防治中心他把全台灣分成4區還是5區那這包含離島總共5區"},{"start":16827.898,"end":16849.826,"text":"北部有七臺 中部十臺 南部八臺 東部五臺那這個都是對應到災害防治中心它的災害應變中心它的分區由這個分區來調度但是在這一次我們是把幾乎全臺灣的行動車都調到臺南跟嘉義去了這次我們使用率怎麼樣"},{"start":16851.536,"end":16860.397,"text":"根據我們看到的資料這個只要有調度過去的那個使用率都非常高包含他的資料量都非常大所以一定有這個必要性繼續建置嗎"},{"start":16863.085,"end":16880.146,"text":"我相信是有必要因為他在這一次他針對局部是有發揮關鍵的效益對但是我們未來要因應是全面性有可能會回到你現在能夠處理局部性那未來遇到更大規模甚至暫時的時候我們不是因為要做一樣超前部署的一個規劃嗎"},{"start":16881.487,"end":16902.801,"text":"局部性的因為因為這個低軌衛星的車子就像支架一樣是針對局部那你如果是全面性的其實電力的韌性跟這個光纖的韌性這個也是必須要考慮的如果是這樣講那就不用做了因為沒有通通都要做卡了那麼多的關卡都沒有一個可以竊決啊"},{"start":16904.377,"end":16918.726,"text":"沒有 全面性的災害本來就是要全面性的解決嘛你不可能單靠一招就可以解決啊對 所以我們才是 我剛剛為什麼提說你現在連撥泡 撥泡幫你就說不清楚是要讓大家這些災民能夠安心啦"},{"start":16919.315,"end":16942.01,"text":"所以我們在下半年的補助就會針對高抗災基地台跟發電機這邊來做補助我就是要你講這句話是不是趁這一次我們也有特別預算有相關的預算應該是不是及早把這些我相信這一次包含不分不分朝野不分政黨我想應該大家都會支持這樣的一個預算你們要順這個資金提出你們的需求是不是應該這樣做"},{"start":16943.666,"end":16968.744,"text":"你要分好幾次到位嗎?不如要一次到位這我們看就是要一次到位啦最後請災防辦王主任主任我想你剛剛也從早上做到現在那災防辦的角色來講你自己目前聽到目前為止這麼單位的答覆你個人滿意嗎?"},{"start":16971.641,"end":16975.925,"text":"我們災防辦負責就是在中央災害應變中心擔任不了參謀"},{"start":16976.946,"end":17006.028,"text":"那各部會進駐的同仁在整個應變中心的作業過程當中包括通訊的資源調度其實是他們是非常努力的因為這次災害的剛才委員有提到說風力已經超過了一些極限所以是非常的大那他們在很多的一個調度上真的都盡心盡力但是還是有不足的地方當然是那災防辦應該扮演什麼角色可不可以再協助做整合的一個平台"},{"start":17006.73,"end":17026.258,"text":"是對於這個部分其實在比較短期的部分我們行政院長卓院長已經在對於災後的復原重建包括通訊的這一塊剛才有提到非常多的一個委員的一些相關的建議我們可以納住"},{"start":17027.038,"end":17043.206,"text":"近期這個關於通訊把它任性把它做一些強化那中長期當然需要靠一些中長程的一個計畫去做推動在預算資源的投入 人力的投入也要去做一些強化 我想"},{"start":17044.146,"end":17060.518,"text":"這個對於我們整個國家未來通訊的或電力的一個韌性會去做一個很大一個因為這一次的災害的經驗我們每一次的災害經驗都是一個學習我們希望能夠去克服然後更加的一個精進這樣子"},{"start":17061.755,"end":17080.508,"text":"主任我記得我過去也在屏東縣政府服務過嘛我們每年都會辦災害防戀演習嘛那我想因為我們的災害型態有很多不一樣的類型那我建議應該像這次的案例應該也要做各縣市的一個演練這非常非常的重要"},{"start":17080.848,"end":17096.384,"text":"委員這建議非常好我們可以把它納入將來對於這現在已經有這樣的一個情境那這樣的一個情境下我們如何去做更好的調度支援做演練我覺得一個大規模的一個演練"},{"start":17097.485,"end":17125.803,"text":"這絕對不是只有電信業者跟NCC蘇華部的事情包含跟未來怎麼樣跟我們的這個縣市政府甚至我們鄉鎮區公所能夠做緊密的結合我想要讓所有的從中央到地方能夠緊密的針對這個救災的體系能夠完整的一個結合然後做怎麼樣一個事實的分工然後中央把資源怎麼樣能夠散盡這個中央資源讓地方能夠最快的速度來這個救災我想這應該是我們要扮演的角色"},{"start":17126.763,"end":17151.205,"text":"是我們透過因為我們依災害防救法有一個計劃的體系剛才委員有問到就是說在事前我們就要對於大家橫向協調聯繫該怎麼做會比較好然後平時有演練在災時應變中心開設的時候大家資源調度要能夠非常到位然後才能夠在復原重建所以我還是剛剛那句話"},{"start":17152.472,"end":17170.257,"text":"藉由今天的會議我相信未來應該是我們檢討之後應該是要做未雨綢繆的準備而不是鼠牙在撥泡泡又撥不好我相信這不是我們全面所樂見的啦也期待我們這一方應該扮演更重要的一個角色能夠去做這樣的一個提醒是 非常感謝委員 謝謝謝謝習護魁委員的執行現在請葉延芝委員執行"},{"start":17192.065,"end":17193.287,"text":"請再訪辦主任 謝謝好 來 再訪辦我們王主任"},{"start":17206.059,"end":17233.316,"text":"主任好 你們災防辦是一個長設機構嘛對不對是 我們災防辦是長住人員所以對於防災應該要更積極啦我今天看到行政院卓榮泰院長他去南部啊然後他說他很高興的宣布說我們現在的前進指揮所要變加速指揮所因為完成了第一個就是屋頂復原啊然後也受理了很多戶的申請要去媒合一些營造廠"},{"start":17234.676,"end":17246.243,"text":"加速指揮所我想問一下我們這個前進指揮所是什麼時候設立的前進指揮所設立的一個我們那個風災是什麼時候7月5我們從7月6號7月6號嘛那請問一下前進指揮所什麼時候設立"},{"start":17256.367,"end":17263.131,"text":"前進指揮所是在7月30號重建的那栽房的前進指揮所是什麼時候設立 有嗎 有這個前進指揮所嗎"},{"start":17274.282,"end":17298.396,"text":"如果是應變應變的指揮其實在各地方我說前進指揮所前進的對前進有沒有沒有設立當時並沒有設立現在那個災害那麼嚴重你們連前進指揮所都沒有設立這個在我聽起來是非常匪夷所思"},{"start":17299.574,"end":17323.889,"text":"以前我們在地方政府服務的時候那時候烏來也遇到颱風那時候幾乎那個烏來山上有快被滅村那時候馬上就成立前進指揮所在前進指揮所裡面有指揮官指揮官可以立刻了解當地的需求調度相關的資源來協助救災就我們現在連前進指揮所都沒有設立然後等了二十幾天才設立復原的指揮所"},{"start":17325.356,"end":17331.072,"text":"那大家都在忙什麼啊你們那時候7月5號、7月6號都在忙什麼啊連前進指揮所都沒有設立"},{"start":17332.361,"end":17359.34,"text":"向委員報告你們都在忙什麼向委員報告因為這一次颱風如各位所知道的它是一個非常特殊的一個颱風它在房屋的損毀的一個部分事實上是各區都有所以當前進指揮所在設立比如說台南是在很多個區那我再請問一下所以你們災防辦有沒有第一時間就掌握災情狀況有沒有"},{"start":17360.687,"end":17389.586,"text":"我們對於災害在中央災害應變中心每天早上9點你們立刻都有了解到所有的災情然後跟當地的需求都有了解都有了解 都有掌握好 那我現在請NCC好不好請NCC沒有沒有 主任請留步那個主委請問一下您是什麼時候知道說當地通訊全斷然後需要來做災害的協助的"},{"start":17390.237,"end":17418.459,"text":"其實第一時間就知道了那為什麼通訊可以到二三十天都一直沒有辦法恢復呢因為很多記憶台是它記憶台不好運作大概三個原因第一個記憶台本身被摧毀第二個記憶台本身沒電對 這個我們都聽很多了我看了很多新聞都是NCC之前發的一些內宣的新聞都說NCC攜手什麼幾大電信公司打造幾十部這個有越野功能的行動基地台這種新聞我常常在看"},{"start":17419.721,"end":17435.476,"text":"那你們NCC這邊你們報告自己寫的喔3月28號就舉辦114年度的通訊傳播災害防救演練訓練這是你們講的嘛對不對對請問一下你這個演練在現在真正災害發生的時候有發揮作用嗎有啊你怎麼樣的作用"},{"start":17435.856,"end":17455.564,"text":"就最簡單最簡單例子就是調派行動記憶台然後以後對可問題就是問題你說你做一大堆人家就是沒有通訊嘛然後你一直告訴大家說你打造了很多越野功能的行動記憶台但是當地就是沒有通訊嘛你有演練你有打造可是人家就是沒有通訊那問題出在哪裡"},{"start":17456.384,"end":17476.889,"text":"關鍵就是規模太大了因為規模太大所以不是你的問題所以你們都不曉得說現在極端氣候可能會遇到強降雨可能會那個風災雨災可能會比以前更大你們都沒有想到這一點所以你現在的演練是針對什麼時候幾十年前的氣候來演練嗎還是怎樣"},{"start":17478.189,"end":17504.81,"text":"我們是針對過往的經驗過往經驗嘛所以你們都沒有預測到極端氣候狀況你的演練是針對過往的那所以只要一旦遇到超出預期的風災雨災你就束手無策了不是束手無策是因為投入所有資源現在大家人民憤怒的地方就在這邊嘛第一個動作慢嘛第二就是我們都是針對過往啊我們不曉得這次這麼嚴重啊不能怪我們啊"},{"start":17505.27,"end":17530.787,"text":"沒有 月子其實第一時間就已經投入救災投入復原那就是不夠啊你有做五分跟你有做二十分跟有做六十分跟有做一百分就是不一樣嗎如果說你現在還是用這種態度我相信之後我們還是會遇到一樣的問題你應該是先去了解問題嘛問題是出在哪裡然後你才能夠提出解決的方式嘛"},{"start":17531.167,"end":17538.86,"text":"有 我們會甚至檢討會加強業者的一些救災的一些能量怎麼增加是業者嗎 還是"},{"start":17541.449,"end":17566.635,"text":"業者跟政府機關其實都一樣因為你們之前發的新聞稿都是以你們為主體啊都是說NCC攜手電信公司推動啊那宣傳的時候你們就是主體然後現在遇到問題的時候我們會叫業者做感覺你又推到二線了NCC扛起責任好不好因為你看幾十天人家家裡面沒有通訊是多麼痛苦一件事情啊讓你一天沒有手機你受得了嗎人家幾十天都沒有手機欸沒有通訊欸"},{"start":17567.795,"end":17591.846,"text":"這個我們會持續來改善這部分那未來的這個負災的能量的一些增強增建我們這邊已經在持續跟相關部會來合作努力好謝謝好謝謝葉研資委員的執行游皓游皓委員游皓委員游皓委員不在現在請張祺凱委員執行"},{"start":17614.482,"end":17624.128,"text":"謝謝主席請行政院災害防救辦公室的王主任NCC的代理主任蘇發部的邱政次我先請教王主任"},{"start":17637.976,"end":17663.84,"text":"今天你們很多官員進來備詢啊都說很多的問題都是因為這次的災害範圍太大嘛對不對就是因為災害範圍太大所以第一時間就要成立前進指揮所啊剛才在說的鳳台七月七號的暗示11點40秒為我去故鄉嘉義布袋站起來這災情有多大啊台南郊嘉義一萬八千戶的房子"},{"start":17664.81,"end":17685.488,"text":"屋頂被掀開了有些連那個牆壁都被摧垮了一萬八千戶耶電線桿將近四千 四千次三千多支 裡面有穿七支跟穿八支是在打機我去看 那個不是摧倒耶是硬生生折斷耶那災情有多嚴重就前進指揮所到了22號才成立"},{"start":17686.624,"end":17715.047,"text":"行政院發言人還可以在那邊硬拗我在兩三個禮拜前我就一直在講趕快成立前進指揮所因為每次我回去嘉義送物資去救災的時候就看到那個家裡殘破不堪啊災民已經跟總統要求了我們防止爬不上去幫忙蓋這個環部國軍來幫忙電信不通啊人民是有請求的所以光是一個前進指揮所就看得出來這是"},{"start":17717.403,"end":17744.7,"text":"我覺得政府現在真的是對不起民眾因為台灣是一個救災不管是經費方面在這個標準的作業程序上面是非常有經驗的光是一個前進指揮手你去看88風災的時候前進指揮手就在災區嘛那時候派下去的人是誰內政部長廖遼宇啊連美軍都來幫忙耶美軍來幫忙要到哪邊報到前進指揮手啊"},{"start":17746.329,"end":17766.992,"text":"這次不是很多其他縣市都到台南的街去幫忙嗎你中央部會中央機關連一個前進指揮所在災區都沒有耶這多離譜的天平颱風的時候有沒有設前進指揮所都有嘛結果行政院第一個你連以前的救災標準程序都不把它做"},{"start":17767.932,"end":17793.562,"text":"你連災害有多嚴重不去了解第二個以前什麼救災都搞不清楚後來出來硬要說我們是第一次成立22天7月7號的凌晨開始有災情到了22號過了15天慢半拍慢15拍你要敢充說以前沒有還說我有這不是笑死人怎麼對不起我們的災民這是第一個我們今天要先導正的所以剛才在說這個要補破網"},{"start":17795.27,"end":17817.045,"text":"主任你要回去你要建立要跟行政院講清楚我們希望以後不要有天災可是以後要第一時間災區在哪邊中央的力量要進去嘛為什麼要限前進指揮所各個部會才知道找人啊像我回到當街我回到議場他說房子被掀開了通訊不通了我們不是幫忙打電話你們最近都接到電話對不對"},{"start":17818.618,"end":17846.34,"text":"透過立委或者是鄉鎮市還要去找部會事情怎麼講得清楚你們是有人住在那邊各個部會都在那裡你們是要主動去了解狀況主動去解決問題嘛好不好像委員報告其實我們在中央災害應變中心雖然就是各部會的支援調度各縣市的相互支援的這個部分我們都是在其實都有做相關的一個支援調度這就是人民現在生氣的地方 主委"},{"start":17847.741,"end":17870.749,"text":"來 我們用一個最簡單的颱風進來了 到了第五天總統到台南去 對不對災民要求了三件事情 災民要求什麼災民為什麼要要求 就這三件事情很嚴重沒有做好嘛第一個 我的屋頂被風吹走啦"},{"start":17872.441,"end":17887.476,"text":"像我們在台北在其他縣市可能不能想像這個事情在南部就是很多三合院嘛那個屋頂真的就是封欸十六級十七級的封欸跟他鄉親說那個像房子整個都要被掀起來欸你知道嗎 類似那個龍潛峰這樣子勒連牆壁都吹倒了"},{"start":17891.477,"end":17920.306,"text":"就跟總統求救啊大家想像一下就表示你第五天的時候你該救的那個房子損害的大家想一想很可憐耶你家裡面如果一天沒有電沒有水屋頂被吹走你有辦法住嗎到第五天還要跟總統求救總統能不能回答說那屋頂我們要自己爬隔幾天真的有一個台南的民眾真的爬上去跌下來過世了這是天災嗎這是人後吧"},{"start":17922.421,"end":17947.402,"text":"所以你們現在怎麼敢有臉講說你們救災救得很快 或者救好呢我們現在捕破網嘛 我們要面對問題 想解決問題啊今天為什麼要開這個會第一個 屋頂的修繕 到現在嘉義跟台南有很多房子都沒修好你要去排隊 要排兩個月後才有料 才有工人這當然要國軍進去啊 工兵啊 有內政部的消防署的人員啊"},{"start":17948.741,"end":17976.97,"text":"國土計畫署要把這個相關的這個土木機師那些人要全部公辦的派下去啊你不搶修今天已經快一個月了耶今天還來得及我現在跟你講災情還是現在進行是因為你屋頂跟房子不修好你一下雨最近這一兩個禮拜問題出在哪邊舊的商沒有處理好下個大雨家裡就進水嘛現在很可憐耶第一個我跟你講房子要修的這個問題第二個國金本來就要去幫忙嘛"},{"start":17978.089,"end":18006.971,"text":"我相信歷年來大家回去看看每一次的這個風災地震哪一次國軍沒有出現這一次國軍在7月7號救災晚之後7月8號就漢光演習現在人民在埋怨什麼救災如同作戰啊啊你在演習因為救災跟演習兩個比較重要兩個都重要好不好那你把演習一部分變成是救災啊你在打仗的時候如果發生了天災你不用先救災嗎如果那時候是改變一個項目趕快去嘉義 趕快去台南救災"},{"start":18009.622,"end":18030.485,"text":"現在災情會延續到現在嗎結果搞成什麼連林國成跟我 我們都要帶我們的小草民眾 老人民眾自己去救災去送物資那時候政府在哪裡國經在哪裡第三個就今天要討論了通信的問題通信這個事情是多嚴重的事"},{"start":18032.745,"end":18051.676,"text":"那天啊總統去然後民眾就跟總統講說我這裡沒水沒電沒有網路我們一些比較年長的長輩或者年紀比較大的身體病痛也沒辦法聯絡通信要叫我們聯絡我們就沒網路要怎麼聯絡就跟總統講了一個經典他去問問那個問問那個說郭國文可以郭國文是中華電信嘛"},{"start":18062.438,"end":18089.278,"text":"我跟你說 我也是中華電信啊我第二天白天 我一個禮拜有時候電話就開始打不通啊這裡面有兩個大問題啊第一個中華電信通 抬高大勒 延傳勒第二個老實講 連中華電信都沒有全部通啦如果那個時刻 當人民跟總統求救了你們請前提趕快去幫忙那是不是應該可以更快那結果是什麼 我跟大家講"},{"start":18090.752,"end":18119.577,"text":"這個通信造成的傷害有多大台南有個民眾他一個婦人是被鐵門砸到通信不通你要打電話求救這個叫天天不領叫地地不領通信出不去所以你去幫忙一個多小時以後消防人員也快過來人就已經走了你說通信這嚴不嚴重"},{"start":18120.674,"end":18139.079,"text":"第二個 通訊這次延誤到多久在丹納斯風災的第24天 台南還有很多地方還是斷訊的今天是更直接問一個 現在馬上要處理了現在還有很多事話都沒通"},{"start":18141.124,"end":18152.109,"text":"還有很多有線電視你知道嗎?嘉義跟台南現在很多人在外面有線電視已經快一個月不能看了主委你知道這件事嗎?知道,嘉義大洋很嚴重,事件都會影響那一國會這樣?市化也不通,那更嚴重,有線電視很多時候一國會都沒人看"},{"start":18161.448,"end":18176.771,"text":"我們的速度這麼慢嗎?救災的速度為什麼慢?他們也積極在搶救但是相對的一些工班大概人力都吃緊但是很抱歉他們雖然已經在投入但是速度我們希望可以再改進今天是在補破啊恭喜老蔣一直在講老蔣是心都疼的啦"},{"start":18184.417,"end":18207.749,"text":"我們本來說 照以前救災的標準作業程序 SOP前進指揮所趕快進去 災民跟你求救的時候所有的人力該進去幫忙修房子廢棄物要去清潤的衣帳到目前為止喔 自己的衣帳垃圾還有兩個多月還清得掉 房子還一直在清你清出來的 他說垃圾 兄弟說要考因為垃圾兩個月已經很慘了 他說每天垃圾沒有掃還在加"},{"start":18210.27,"end":18235.647,"text":"那怎麼去解決 主任 現在是要集中所有的力量嘛 你前進指揮手已經進去了該動員所有的力量 不只要防止修好 垃圾該清的要趕快去清包括通信 我知道大家很賣力啦 這次老蔣我是非常肯定基本台電價值老公撂不去 沒錢沒錢可是老蔣 你現在在檢討通信這一塊你怎麼會搞到一個 已經快一個月 通信還沒有弄好"},{"start":18238.106,"end":18255.382,"text":"你們如果在打仗的時候碰到這事情怎麼辦你建經的期間你不是在講什麼任性的國防嗎我今天看你們檢討報告NCC啊 你們叫人家去檢查這件事情現在NCC在做什麼事情"},{"start":18256.38,"end":18276.716,"text":"怎麼避免類似的事情在發生第二個趕快怎麼加速去解決這個問題就是檢討的部分其實我們已經在啟動就是未來的加強基台的韌性的部分就是包括公有建築物的提供場所然後相關的電纜如果是光纜部分能盡可能地下化"},{"start":18277.116,"end":18302.919,"text":"然後另外機台本身的電力的部分的韌性要加強我們也跟相關部門來合作看未來能不能再提升它的一些蓄電的一些時間跟時間部分我先問蘇發部蘇發部你在去年的7月8號你發表一個重要的新聞所以你們要推動這個數位這個韌性對不對所以你在推動低軌的衛星通信"},{"start":18304.039,"end":18312.654,"text":"他說你們在今年底就是鼓捏2024年的鼓捏就可以達到24小時的這個涵蓋包括說去年4月份花蓮發生這個7.2級強震的時候"},{"start":18315.899,"end":18340.139,"text":"你們都有去救災啊那為什麼這次這個低軌衛星為什麼沒有發揮功能跟委員報告那個我們派出去的行動基地台車上面都是配備低軌衛星有三十台配備低軌衛星的車到災區的有十八台你說你補助一個十台三十台嘛對不對基本派一百台已經都出來了嘛那顯然就是一定是兩個問題嘛一個量不夠所以你說要再增加嘛"},{"start":18340.839,"end":18356.498,"text":"第一個是功能有問題嗎我現在問最簡單的你如果產生兩岸的緊張你就打起來了或者一個天災再來人民怎麼相信數位部數位發展不是很努力的去把這個事情做好你現在該做什麼事情質跟量"},{"start":18358.952,"end":18376.946,"text":"質跟量 量因為30台我已經派了28台那的確量28台是沒辦法補1256台的所以這個部分的確我們目前的量是不夠的所以現在你說每個業者在多補助"},{"start":18378.598,"end":18407.953,"text":"我們下半年會再多補助從現有的預算這還不包含救災預算從現有預算再補助再多擠出每個業者三台多九台然後我們會把剩下的行動基地台車先把他的衛星支架裝好因為衛星支架裝上去也是需要價錢那個低軌衛星我還看到一個重要新聞台哥大台哥大他們有宣布啊他們說他們已經成功運用現有的手機就不用經過基地台"},{"start":18409.38,"end":18423.125,"text":"他是經過限流手機直接接低軌的衛星進行這個簡訊的發送跟影音的通知已經成功驗證了太空基地台這個技術你們跟他們聯絡嗎那個是那個是他有跟我們申請的實驗計畫"},{"start":18425.306,"end":18449.625,"text":"現在沒辦法推展是吧那個目前是實驗他還沒有申請商轉的執照那因為這個跟太空職業通訊在6G的規格裡面是有那包含我們高空氣球計畫都是針對6G的時候在做這個準備如果可以透過手機就盡快了加速去推動我最後要做三個呼籲跟建議因為主席國城已經站起來了第一個NCC"},{"start":18451.465,"end":18477.964,"text":"NCC是兩個禮拜內請你完成盤點中華電信、台哥大、遠傳三家電信業者的行動基地台的數量這裡應該你手上就有對不對對第二個更重要的SOP要做出來完成天災任何天災發生的時候這些電信業者他的行動基地行動基地台這個台車啊包括他有衛星設備的這個他怎麼去投入災區的協助他有多少數量地點優先順序要先規劃出來有沒有"},{"start":18479.505,"end":18497.533,"text":"好 你當然颱風來或天災來每個地方會不一樣可是你之前一定是有先應應過嘛對不對 也命過這個東西要很清楚的要出來這樣才能夠第一時間派遣到災區去協助解決問題另外在一個月內一個月內針對最近幾次天災對電信信號影響"},{"start":18498.994,"end":18514.184,"text":"方式範圍跟程度跟各家電競業者影響這個請你趕快制定一個相關的計畫好不好提出來怎麼去解決不要避免這個通信的這個孤島另外兩個月內兩個月內這個很重要你們已經有應變或者暫時應用的新科技這個數位這個對不對"},{"start":18516.565,"end":18531.468,"text":"盡快把它完成好不好社會發展部跟NCC趕快來做這件事情非常謝謝不要再發生天災可是不要再發生這一次啊慢半拍這個救災要不然的話天災就被人禍了謝謝這段時間大家的努力不過速度要加快一點我拜託講 最好拜託講"},{"start":18532.589,"end":18558.284,"text":"嘉義跟台南現在災情還是現在進行是因為舊的傷沒有癒合隨時又再下雨拜託舊災速度要更快特別是房屋的修繕廢棄物跟垃圾的這個清運好不好通信要趕快是要完整的好不好國軍該有的人力所有各部位該有人力趕快下去拜託謝謝 德祥好 謝謝張其楷委員的執行現在請陳冠廷委員執行"},{"start":18568.73,"end":18575.062,"text":"我們一樣麻煩部長跟代理主委好那個代主委還有我們卻政次"},{"start":18582.834,"end":18603.513,"text":"市長還有卓偉這次的風災其實我們看到剛才有很多委員提到的這些議題我希望我們都能夠去改善我們就把它改善另外一件事情我覺得我上次有提醒交通部我還是在也提醒這個數位部這次有很多開口契約的承包商他們是要負責來去排除道路的問題"},{"start":18604.734,"end":18633.231,"text":"還有排除道路的問題的目的是為了什麼就是為了讓台電能夠進去讓其他的電信設備能夠得到修復可是這一些國內這一些相關的這些契約的這些廠商他們自己的家裡門口就被堵住換言之他們同時沒有視化視化沒有通同時也沒有辦法用手機通話那所以他們沒有辦法請人來排除所以當這些契約的這一些廠商"},{"start":18634.011,"end":18660.195,"text":"本身要去執行清通道路的這些廠商他根本沒有辦法去執行這些任務的時候那就導致我們道路首先不能通道路不能通的話台電不能進入台電不能進入的話電信全部都沒有辦法進入所以這些緊急的相關的通訊設備數位部有沒有討論過這些關鍵的這一些來去排除緊急障礙的這些廠商他們自己的在家居家"},{"start":18660.615,"end":18670.833,"text":"不是公司喔 因為他們接到電話或者是要接到訊息 或者看到狀況的話他們要去執行公務的時候他們本身他們家裡就必須要有這些緊急通訊的設備不知道有沒有做這些準備"},{"start":18672.758,"end":18699.085,"text":"跟委員簡單回應就是跨部會要協力的部分在我們在防辦的那個應變中心那邊其實都有協調各部會有遇到什麼狀況要各部會來協調處理像剛剛委員提到說道路不通需要當地政府或者中央部會來協力的部分在那個機制底下會有這個協作會有這個協調通報機制我相信那邊應該可以做一定程度的處理"},{"start":18700.406,"end":18726.897,"text":"因為就是沒有得到緩解沒有得到處理上次就是有這樣子的例子在所以我這次特別提出來我是希望說數位部可以一起跟他們思考因為隨時都有可能再有下一次的天災那這一些的承包商他們是要排除道路障礙的承包商是要讓電信能夠通訊能夠順利進去來去復原的承包商他們必須要有最基本的通訊設備那這個通訊設備不是只有市化或者是他們手機因為那個時候都沒有通訊所以"},{"start":18728.197,"end":18739.788,"text":"可能包含緊急的無線電的系統或者是因為他們是在某一個鄉鎮裡面他就是負責那個鄉鎮所以他必須要跟公所或者他必須跟消防隊至少有點對接這個應該很好去處理是吧"},{"start":18744.773,"end":18759.668,"text":"其實我相信在房中主管機關其實會有一些衛星大哥大那些都可以來會有一個相關的工具來處理如果他們需要的話他們其實已經有這個資源像在IMASA他們都有這個"},{"start":18760.668,"end":18779.941,"text":"希望說這樣子的方針能夠把他們傳下去讓人家可以得到這些緩解那再來就是今天我特別想提到說上週我將這個大大是颱風的災後重建特別條例草案裡面的建議版本來給行政院參考那其中裡面關於通訊的韌性的強化的部分我有提出的草案的第26條"},{"start":18780.982,"end":18799.514,"text":"我裡面有提到說核心局站跟基地財的這個備援能力備援的電力那上次這個愛立信有來拜訪我們的辦公室那有提到說現在的備援就是說這些通信設施的備援大概是他們都在抓4個小時左右那我想請教一下"},{"start":18800.074,"end":18815.377,"text":"包含這個抗風結構強化或者是被人定義跟這個傳輸路由的多樣化你們會不會把這個相關的spec把它開出來因為現在很明顯的話那就是四個小時有例如四個小時有沒有想要把它延長這個時限嗎這些看法不知道有沒有得到相關的資訊"},{"start":18816.138,"end":18837.788,"text":"是 根據您的報告在基地台空地型的話4小時 像剛剛委員所提到的4小時是基本配備那高抗災部分是要要求72小時那另外剛剛講說抗風係數目前NCG的審議規範就已經要求要抗15級風那未來如果極端氣候需要再調整我們會來與時並進來檢討這個抗風級數的要求要不要提高"},{"start":18842.247,"end":18858.023,"text":"好因為我想就是這一次就把它當成是一個基礎就從今天開始我們可能會遇到的這個災損的狀況可能就是由這次NAS颱風作為基礎所以相關的這個規格可能就要以這次為基礎"},{"start":18858.664,"end":18881.357,"text":"那我當然知道過去我們都會有什麼20年30年等等的標準等等那這一次可能就是未來天災或者是極端氣候可能會成為常態這樣的狀況之下我們的備援電力跟抗風結構能力的這個規格可能要向上提升那向上提升的話當然會付出的預算會比較多所以我們才特別請行政院提出特別的預算把這個多餘的這些成本納入考量"},{"start":18881.957,"end":18896.188,"text":"那剛才提到的就是我們講到通訊的這個韌性我知道你說災防辦要去做處理災防等等等等但是我還是一樣提到規格就是包含這一次我提到的這些承包商他們也必須納入緊急"},{"start":18897.989,"end":18925.98,"text":"應變或者是數位韌性的規格裡面比如說以後我們要求這個相公所也好或者是縣府也好或者是行政院的中央部會也好我們配合的這些企業廠商他必須有一定的通訊能力不是什麼東西都去找政府你竟然要承包這個開口契約來去來去成造這個重要的這個緊急應變你必須要除了你本身之外的這個通訊設備你才可以在你自己需要幫忙的時候可以聯繫到外界"},{"start":18926.42,"end":18954.849,"text":"你當你自己要去做緊急救助的時候你自己不能夠沒有得到幫助然後你根本出不去那這會延緩很多所以剛才我知道有些委員會說為什麼幾個小時都還沒有過去都還沒有辦法幫助因為有很多的例子是這些執行第一線的這些人員他們根本也在受困的狀況之下甚至是沒有通訊的狀況之下所以我剛才作為立法委員我不是指揮系統的這個一環事實上我認為我想藉著這次機會跟大家講說在指揮系統的一環就是說不可以在"},{"start":18956.209,"end":18976.326,"text":"在災難的當時所有的民代我們全部都擠到第一線我們應該是可以去關心但是要讓現場的行政的指揮系統他不能夠被我們指指點點我們是在之後在災害之後我們提出來的是我們的政策 我們的規格 我們的預算這才是我們最主要的我有 其實有聽到一些第一線的"},{"start":18976.906,"end":18999.811,"text":"不管是台電能源都有提到這樣子的狀況那我自己還是會去但是我會盡量是跟第一線處置單位還是保持一定的距離我也想說藉由這個機會呼籲所有的我們的這一些政治人物還有我們的朋友們 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳冠廷委員的執行賴世保委員賴世保委員不在"},{"start":19003.593,"end":19030.191,"text":"現在登記執行委員經已發言完畢做以下決定報告及執行完畢委員核心存有號所提書面執行列入記錄並刊登公報委員以執行中要求提供相關書面資料或為即時答覆部分請數位部及相關"},{"start":19031.852,"end":19036.697,"text":"謝謝所有的委員謝謝所有的官員跟我們媒體朋友本日會議結束謝謝"},{"start":19064.085,"end":19064.686,"text":"喔 弄得大"},{"start":19083.183,"end":19100.421,"text":"不是,我覺得是角度過來,對那個圈圈,我們當然知道他這個都沒有變啊,對不對,可是我就是沒有正常安定,"},{"start":19103.385,"end":19103.585,"text":"鮮奶油"}]}},{"id":"16844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16844","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d8fc999d94c20378fad9f551ce5fa921f6b3d2f3de1678a2167047611050529145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第3次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(二)委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(三)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(四)委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(五)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(六)委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(七)委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(八)委員邱議瑩等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(九)委員吳宗憲等 17 人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(十)委員賴士葆等 28 人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(十一)委員楊瓊瓔等 26 人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。(十二) 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欢迎订阅"},{"start":1804.93,"end":1815.024,"text":"報告委員會初期委員14人已足法定人數我們現在開會首先進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1817.045,"end":1843.16,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期教育及文化交通委員會第二次聯席會議議事錄時間中華民國一四年六月十一日上午九十一分至十二時二十七分地點本院前線樓101會議室出席委員黃孟楷委員等三十人列席委員林德福委員等十一人列席人員國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文率同有關人員數位發展部部長黃燕蘭率同有關人員主席葛昭吉委員如均"},{"start":1844.739,"end":1862.641,"text":"報告事項 宣讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項 一 繼續審查委員葛如軍等37人擬具人工智慧基本法草案案等7案二 審查委員邱毅英等20人擬具人工智慧基本法草案案等7案"},{"start":1863.962,"end":1885.049,"text":"決議一對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料後未及答覆部分請相關機關監事委順便答覆二人工智慧基本法草案相關草案令定期繼續審查請數位發展部於一一四年七月十五日以前提出不版建議條文並於一一四年七月二十一日當週排審審查結果如下"},{"start":1886.601,"end":1902.22,"text":"委員葛如君等三七人提案名稱第一條至第十一條含對應之各提案條文委員賴世寶等二十八人提案第一章至第三章章名台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一章至第二章章名軍戰保留"},{"start":1903.661,"end":1923.226,"text":"3.委員班美玲提出書面資料一份4.本次會議議事錄授權主席確認後及上傳立法院全球資訊網公開通過提案一項宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好應該沒有"},{"start":1931.467,"end":1932.095,"text":"有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1935.566,"end":1960.761,"text":"好沒有的話我們就議事錄確定好那我們今天的議程呢是繼續審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案共14案有委員葛如君等37人委員邱若驊等17人委員羅廷偉等17人委員萬美玲等18人委員徐宇珍等20人委員張家俊等21人委員林倩琦等23人"},{"start":1962.142,"end":1967.768,"text":"委員邱毅英等20人委員吳宗憲等17人委員賴士寶等28人委員楊瓊英等26人台灣民眾黨黨團委員許志傑等27人委員林怡瑾等26人"},{"start":1979.139,"end":2006.48,"text":"同時也審查人工智慧基本法草案的相關草案有共5案委員張雅玲等18人委員謝一鳳等17人委員陳秀寶等25人委員林思明等17人委員范雲等18人那我們首先介紹在場委員其次介紹與會官員我們先介紹范雲委員"},{"start":2009.591,"end":2036.545,"text":"劉淑冰委員柯之恩委員李瑾 趙偉陳秀寶委員郭玉琴委員張雅琳委員吳立華委員林佩祥委員謝榮介委員萬美玲委員好那我們介紹與會官員"},{"start":2039.739,"end":2058.19,"text":"國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文主委副主委陳秉宇陳副主委也有都會列席的同仁還有數位發展部政務次長林怡靜政務次長謝謝"},{"start":2060.146,"end":2066.988,"text":"數位策略師師長蔡壽泉師長蔡師長謝謝資料創新師師師長莊明芬莊師長謝謝數位政府司副師長楊耿瑜楊副師長謝謝法治處處長張學文張處長謝謝數位產業署副組長鍾嘉榮鍾副組長謝謝"},{"start":2082.492,"end":2099.058,"text":"教育部資科師資訊級科技教育師師長吳穎田師長謝謝那教育部也有多位列席非常感謝那行政院教育科學文化處參議劉家祐參議謝謝財政部複稅署專門委員劉旭峰劉專委謝謝法務部參事汪南君參事汪參事謝謝經濟部產業技術師檢任記證戴建成謝謝"},{"start":2112.81,"end":2136.84,"text":"智慧財產局組長洪聖義 洪組長中小級新創企業署專門委員陳佩君 陳專委標準檢驗局檢任基政鄭乃源 鄭檢任基政 謝謝勞動部綜合規劃師專門委員林永玉 林專委 謝謝那勞動部也有多位同仁參與 謝謝文化部綜合規劃師副司長陳怡靜"},{"start":2140.161,"end":2157.734,"text":"陳副司長謝謝行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員林嘉惠林專委以及主編人力處專門委員曾永芳曾專委以及個人資料保護委員會籌備處隱私科技組組長林益成林組長謝謝"},{"start":2160.387,"end":2171.55,"text":"考選部綜合規劃師專門委員黃于儒謝謝黃專委還有高普考試師專門委員楊文怡楊專委權敘部法規師專門委員黃家慧黃專委國家發展委員會法治協調處檢認視察林興文行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員吳明修吳專委"},{"start":2195.78,"end":2202.568,"text":"謝謝大家的參與本案已於114年5月14日詢答完畢並且於6月11日進行逐條審查我們在6月11日進行逐條審查的會議之後"},{"start":2212.419,"end":2227.134,"text":"我們有這個要求這個相關的草案令定期繼續審查同時也請數位發展部於114年7月15日以前提出不版建議條文並且定於後續來排審"},{"start":2232.595,"end":2246.966,"text":"不過我們看到在7月15號的時候數位發展部發函來說提供的資料結果提供的是說明的意見而已完全沒有佈板的條文"},{"start":2247.907,"end":2264.274,"text":"那我们也就在这个文化教育级文化委员会我们也就在7月29号的时候我们发文请数位发展部在8月1号星期五下午5点以前希望能提供布版的条文"},{"start":2265.714,"end":2285.967,"text":"那最後我們是在8月1號又收得數位發展部的函呢完全再次的沒有提供再次沒有提供那我們一樣到今天已經是8月4號的早上9點08分我們尚未收到"},{"start":2287.245,"end":2305.147,"text":"數位發展部的人工智慧基本法草案的建議條文所以到現在我們的行政院除了去年10月國科會曾經一約提出預告版的草案條文但是之後又被收回"},{"start":2306.294,"end":2319.641,"text":"主管機關由行政院單方面的希望轉交速發布而過程當中我們也都看到了那我們在8月1號也善盡提醒之責請速發布在8月1號"},{"start":2321.232,"end":2341.428,"text":"下午應該說我們7月29號的時候發文那希望8月1號下午以前呢能夠提供這個草案的布版條文那速發部在8月1號發文回文呢說經考量人工智慧事務涉及跨部會領域人建議這個等"},{"start":2345.12,"end":2366.675,"text":"行政院版本條文送到大院後再行並各委員版本進行審議所以意思就是速發部請我們等行政院行政院希望我們等速發部速發部再請我們等行政院大概這樣一個概念所以我想這個今天"},{"start":2368.154,"end":2380.557,"text":"我們也謝謝非常多位委員我們跨黨派的也都希望能夠有推進所以我想相關的情勢我們剛才就簡略的做個說明"},{"start":2381.926,"end":2398.38,"text":"那我們今天在這個條文審議上面我們也新增委員張雅玲等五個提案版本那不再進行詢答那有沒有提案委員要進行說明的那我們有五個新的新增提案"},{"start":2399.315,"end":2411.233,"text":"那有張雅琳委員等18人謝依鳳委員等17人陳秀寶委員等25人林思明委員等17人蔡英文委員等18人有沒有要進行提案說明"},{"start":2412.321,"end":2432.094,"text":"如果沒有的話我們就併入本次共同審查委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理我們現在審查人工智慧基本法草案相關草案進行逐條審查並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":2562.322,"end":2585.177,"text":"好謝謝我們與會官員跟所有的委員那我們上一次呢審查到第11條那前面是以保留的那我們今天先從第12條接續的進行討論那我們今天呢有這個新增加的修正動議應該也都有應待各位的手上了"},{"start":2585.777,"end":2607.632,"text":"那這個國務卿委員等提案的條文那這份條文呢是統整了十幾份這個跨黨派委員的版本啦所以可以說是一個兼容並蓄的概念那同時第12條呢也有林議警委員提案的這個版本修正動議"},{"start":2609.053,"end":2625.667,"text":"那我們就從第12條來開始進行討論那在這個我們這個非常感謝教育及文化委員會有編制這份條文對照表那這個頁次呢大家可以翻到第189頁189頁大本的 對"},{"start":2638.473,"end":2639.087,"text":"呃"},{"start":2639.933,"end":2662.202,"text":"這一份呢因為這個葛如君委員的版本呢後續還有提一份新的那新的呢我們也有投影出來大家可以在螢幕上也可以看到那但是其他委員的版本呢也都由教文委員會這裡有幫忙整理出來那以及第12條我們有林一錦召委所提出的修正動議好那我們就針對第12條大家有沒有意見"},{"start":2671.206,"end":2684.504,"text":"好 我們給大家一點時間 謝謝是是 對 這個我簡要說明齁 就是"},{"start":2686.58,"end":2714.758,"text":"葛如君委員今天的這個修正動議有參採6月11號在逐條審查的時候跨黨派的委員所提出的各項建議包含各種不同的版本那所以像第12條呢原先葛如君委員的版本也就是我這邊的版本呢是用國家但是我們現在就統一就用使用政府來做這個一致性好那這條好謝謝"},{"start":2716.741,"end":2735.8,"text":"柯志恩委員不好意思我覺得我剛剛看了一下我現在立即請他們簽名我覺得我要提出一個修正動議因為我個人覺得這個部分除了訂立這個補助的評估準則跟公開審查的機制之外我覺得這整個的要把它整個法規要讓它更完整化"},{"start":2736.621,"end":2751.928,"text":"我個人認為應該還是要在設立一個年度成效的報告的一個制度然後文字會馬上出來因為我個人認為說你要確保資源運用的這個效能那中央主管機關除了這個定力這個補助跟投資的評估準則"},{"start":2753.269,"end":2778.962,"text":"还要建构这个公平公开的这个审查的机度而且最重要是你要设立这个执行承受的报告制度因为你还是要定期对外来公布相关的成果跟评估的一个意见这样才有办法作为政策持续推动完全不违反这个利益的条件但是它让它整个的条文上面更去完整化既然要修的话我个人认为是否也可以做这样的一个处理我现在请他们马上把它"},{"start":2779.462,"end":2783.303,"text":"那謝謝柯志榮委員還有沒有委員有相關意見那有沒有委員要發言的"},{"start":2808.905,"end":2828.6,"text":"或是部會這邊有沒有意見好范議員謝謝因為還沒看到柯基恩委員的文字就是聽起來是一個合理的訴求那現在就是說體力上就是要不要這麼細那是不是可以請那個數發部這邊表達一下意見好嗎好那也謝謝數發部林益進次長那個"},{"start":2838.57,"end":2839.17,"text":"OK 好"},{"start":2865.947,"end":2866.588,"text":"柯委員提出的修正動議"},{"start":2884.85,"end":2901.616,"text":"那個柯委員提出的這些修正動議原則上都會沒有什麼反對但是這個本來就是各部會應該做的事情這個我們本來就會做喂喂喂我這先可以OK"},{"start":2907.267,"end":2909.651,"text":"感謝柯委員提出來的這些修正動議"},{"start":2918.591,"end":2945.952,"text":"非常感謝柯委員提出這些建議原則上我們並不反對這些想法但是這個本來就是各部會會做的事情而人工智慧基本法應該是一個基本的政策的法令我覺得我們是認為說這個可能不需要把它列到基本法裡面這個本來就是我們各部會會進行的事情謝謝"},{"start":2955.182,"end":2969.999,"text":"好那我們看一下我們現在第12條那個第12條現在這一條也不是我們那個修正版的啊我們是政府然後還有對我有稍微改過了"},{"start":2974.794,"end":3003.974,"text":"我个人觉得你虽然说这都是各部位该做的但是整个基本法就是上位大法把它制定得更加的清楚特别是你回到刚刚用红字写的那个部分你们刚才打上去了你看它这个部分里面还是再一次的强调既然是个上位大法里面基本上再一次的强调公平公正的审核机制而且最重要是你要定期对外公布的成果的评估意见这个不是各部位有些时候你没有定的话"},{"start":3004.774,"end":3026.6,"text":"就像你开会一样有些时候一个一年说要开会一次连一年开会一次都做不到你这明文规定在那个地方只是让各部会能够更有具体的行动出来所以如果可以的话我个人认为即使是各部会都该做的把它明文规定出来的话应该不违反只要不违反这个体力的话应该把它放上去更符合它这个大家未来可以遵照的一个标准吧好那还有没有委员好 刘苏冰委员谢谢"},{"start":3033.235,"end":3043.521,"text":"今天審查的這個第十二條呢是對應到本黨民眾黨的第六跟第七條那本黨是特別重視到"},{"start":3045.854,"end":3062.799,"text":"AI基本法裡面的AI發展的促進所以我們認為說這個裁員上面應該要有一定的部分所以本黨是主張說這樣國家發展基金應該提撥一定比例的部分不然的話這個沒有這些保障的話也許會根據自己的"},{"start":3064.559,"end":3082.828,"text":"自己政府內部的財務方面做了調整甚至就犧牲掉AI基本法當作說我國未來關鍵產業的部分所以因此本黨是主張說在國家發展基金上應提供一定比例那比例到底是多少就由根據財政狀況來去尊重行政院的決定"},{"start":3084.349,"end":3112.108,"text":"好 謝謝劉淑冰委員萬美玲委員 謝謝好 謝謝昭偉我只是表達一下其實我非常支持那個知恩所提出來的雖然現在回應都說我們會做會做但是如果能夠在條文上面明白的去闡述清楚我覺得它是更有保障 那更清晰所以我是認為我們應該還是要把它條文單位的文字上面大家可以看看怎麼去修正但是我認為應該還是要明列好 謝謝萬美玲委員范瑩委員"},{"start":3114.591,"end":3141.172,"text":"這個民眾黨版本的精神就是上次我們好像就有討論到就是我個人比較是希望是一個基本法那民眾黨那個部分比較偏向一個作用法那我會擔心說現在就提到以這個國發基金一定比例會不會反而限縮了未來政府出資的譬如說更多的彈性或是什麼所以是建議也許不需要放在這因為這個比較是一個基本法"},{"start":3141.832,"end":3166.717,"text":"那柯志恩委員那個部分我覺得精神上我支持但是我是覺得這個能不能縮短一點點因為通常政府的出資都一定都會有自己的一些行政命令嘛那我自己覺得這邊最關鍵的就是那個年度的報告執行報告那個對外公開這個部分如果可以簡化的話放在這兒是不是就比較能夠回到一個基本法的精神以上"},{"start":3173.302,"end":3199.65,"text":"絕對絕對絕對"},{"start":3208.235,"end":3233.946,"text":"那个我是不是可以就这样子就根据范委员的一个建议就是前面都去掉然后就说在你原有的条文之下像你原有条文的这个金融等财政优惠措施并应设置年度执行成效制度报告定期对外公布等等之类的可不可以你后面前面把它删掉就是措施后面就变成并应设置年度"},{"start":3236.394,"end":3254.7,"text":"好 這個滑鼠可不可以 滑鼠能運作嗎從位 你在位那個地方點一下滑鼠左鍵然後拖曳你的滑鼠一路到機制的字那個地方旁邊的逗點然後按一下delete按一下鍵盤的delete 很好 謝謝好"},{"start":3261.897,"end":3282.386,"text":"第12條政府應積極推動人工智慧研發應用及基礎建設妥善規劃資源整體配置並辦理人工智慧相關產業之補助委託出資投資獎勵輔導或提供租稅金融等財政優惠措施"},{"start":3283.146,"end":3309.086,"text":"那前面的政府也謝謝林怡瑾召委的修正動議我們把國家改成政府那後面這一段是柯志恩委員的修正動議並應設置年度執行成效報告制度定期對外公佈相關成果與評估意見以作為政策持續推動與資源調整之依據好 那有沒有委員有意見那如果沒有意見我們就照修正通過謝謝"},{"start":3311.229,"end":3339.04,"text":"那我們接下來第13條我們接下來訂13條那第13條的部分呢是在大本的這一本的第199頁那我們現在一樣可以看上面我們謝謝教文委員會的同仁還有速發部的同仁那我們政府呢這裡應該也是有稍微微幅修改"},{"start":3340.2,"end":3363.649,"text":"我的版本本來是國家但因為我的版本本來有國家政府是有混用的狀況我們都通歷改成政府那大致上呢並沒有太多的調整那有沒有委員針對第13條有意見有沒有建議 第13條這邊許智傑跟我們很多委員的版本是比較簡短的"},{"start":3365.479,"end":3388.037,"text":"因為葛文君委員的版本比較長嘛那我們這邊的版本是希望能夠更精簡一點的後面那些什麼相關法規之解釋與適用如與其他法規漢格等等那這部分我這裡是希望能夠精簡一點啦那不知道葛文君委員可不可以說明一下為什麼後面要這麼的長然後也請述發部這邊表達一下意見好嗎好"},{"start":3391.251,"end":3417.042,"text":"謝謝我想近期我們都有看到人工智慧的創新跟研發其實在台灣有受到一些限制跟影響那在新興技術去做突破的過程當中其實是有可能要去做其他法律的修正那我們也看到在我手上現在有一份"},{"start":3418.513,"end":3442.356,"text":"台灣有四個新創相關的協會在做聯合聲明台灣新創環境與科技法律發展的省思其中就有提到現在我們這個台灣在第三段就有提到台灣積極推動AI產業發展然而如果對新創環境不友善法律框架無法與時俱進"},{"start":3444.077,"end":3472.816,"text":"則可能讓本土優秀的AI人才與技術流失讓台灣國際AI發展的浪潮當中被邊緣化這四個協會有台灣虛擬及擴增實境產業協會有台灣新經濟聯盟協會有台灣網路暨電子商務產業發展協會TIEA有台灣觀光發展策略協會其實有提到這麼多其實就是在於說我們在第四項原則的"},{"start":3473.897,"end":3497.962,"text":"前提之下希望能夠給AI人工智慧的創新跟新創去做其他必要法律的修正以上回應 謝謝那個我自己會蠻擔憂就是說葛國軍委員後面這個就是除非以第四條漢格都應該優先保障啦因為我們很多條都在講那個弱勢啊歧視啊等等那如果這樣這邊給一個"},{"start":3499.982,"end":3525.603,"text":"條文中的特別好像是霸王條款這樣那會不會反而我們一些弱勢我們關心權益隱私這些的條文就變成不重要了所以這會有一點點憂慮因為你說就發展這個部分第12條剛剛通過的精神已經有那這一邊許智傑跟我們一些委員的版本是比較簡潔的那葛國勳委員這邊後面的那個優先保障"},{"start":3528.846,"end":3538.456,"text":"我覺得會有一些衝突所以我個人比較支持許智傑委員跟我們的這些的這個提案好不好 修正動議謝謝主席"},{"start":3546.699,"end":3559.553,"text":"針對這個十三條其實是我個人版本的第十條跟第十七條好 那在法規調適的這一條本席想要針對葛昭偉的版本提出一些想法首先相關法規的調適確實很重要"},{"start":3561.275,"end":3585.684,"text":"但孰先孰後也就是說誰應該優先適用我覺得這個遊戲規則絕對要先講好葛昭惠的版本是相關法規的解釋與適用如與其他法規和格在符合本法第四條基本原則之前理下應優先保障新興技術與服務的提供如果有必要應修正其他法律但是基本法的草案並非特別法"},{"start":3586.164,"end":3604.925,"text":"就是並未排除其他法律那草案的這一條如果賦予了這個新興AI技術發展較高的優先度但若優先保障的範圍過大那可能會導致對現行法律的這個架空甚至會淺害的侵害其他受限法保障的基本權利"},{"start":3605.626,"end":3617.316,"text":"例如說經濟委員會在審查個資法個資法的修正案那如果妨礙了AI的發展那到底是人民的個資比較重要還是AI發展比較重要這點就變成要慎思所以這一條並不是說絕對的帝王條款所以本席認為不應該這樣寫法"},{"start":3623.661,"end":3648.288,"text":"那與其強調AI基本法的特殊性那我覺得不如就加強來解釋如何調整各個主管機關主長的相關的法規當然 葛委員也有提到說要完善法規可是本席認為如果因此就把AI基本法當作最上位法那要求修改其他的法規我覺得這是不大對應該是所有的法規都要相輔相成才是一個健康的觀念以上"},{"start":3649.09,"end":3667.141,"text":"好謝謝還有沒有其他委員有提建議郭育琴委員待會速發部次長可以表達意見這個人工智慧的研發其實應該要沿手兩個原則那第一個原則其實要保障他的創新再來就是要維持他的秩序"},{"start":3667.661,"end":3685.534,"text":"那我在想這一條的部分如果是在不妨害這個新技術發展的這個作為的前提之下那進行必要的一個法規的調適喔然後再由各個目的的事業主管機關去建立創新的一個實驗的環境在一個安全的環境當中去加速發展喔"},{"start":3685.934,"end":3704.563,"text":"那同時也能夠保障這個社會大眾的一個權益我想這個比單純的去強調法規的優先順序跟保障信心技術我想這個可能比較具有一些建設性跟實驗實踐性這個是我的建議以上好謝謝那請林益進次長"},{"start":3707.49,"end":3718.404,"text":"我們速發部這邊認為AI的發展應該是要強調健康的產業生態系的建立而不是在強調政府的輔助與輔助因為軟體產業有個特性"},{"start":3722.85,"end":3738.439,"text":"那個軟體產業的創新與發展大部分都是來自於民間的自由競爭而不是來自於政府的大規模的主導即使我們知道在美國像是Chad GPD, Gemini, Grog, Cloudy等這些AI的"},{"start":3739.119,"end":3766.766,"text":"大的那個LLM其實他都是來自於民間產業那即使在中國大陸這個是中國大陸他一向是相信政府的大規模主導但是他們的Deep Seek還有那個還有那個謙文事實上也都是來自於民間所以我們認為說這個條文不應該去強調政府的補助與輔助而是應該去強調這個產業生態系的建立對不起 次長我們現在在第13條"},{"start":3768.277,"end":3790.86,"text":"您現在講的補助是第12條對我們現在是用這一份我們現在是用大本的對喔 輔助是不是好好好沒關係 那這樣我們剛剛 那還有沒有委員有意見好 劉淑冰委員"},{"start":3795.28,"end":3816.281,"text":"關於派與委員所提到的這一部分或是民進黨委員所提到的這一部分在第13條的內容上面呢我覺得這邊也許可以做一下一個小小修訂啦因為葛委員您所提出來的修正的整個版本當中是有提到在左右干戈這一部分嘛那可能字眼已經太強烈了"},{"start":3816.741,"end":3843.547,"text":"這部分也許就可以說如與就是在這個相關法規的適用於解釋的再符合本本法第四條基本原則的前提之下等等後面就是照原來就好就把那個所幹的部分就把它把漢格的部分把它拿掉因為這樣子就可以讓它這邊就因為第四條這部分的原則就很清楚了我覺得是可以考慮往這邊去進行啦好還有沒有委員有建議好我想剛剛"},{"start":3846.099,"end":3848.723,"text":"相關法規之解釋與適用如與其他法規"},{"start":3864.622,"end":3881.753,"text":"再符合本法第四條基本原則前提下就要優先保障那我們通過剛剛那麼多別條譬如說第五條有弱勢族群等等那些就會變成都不重要了都要優先保障新興技術與物質提供就是這樣解釋沒錯嘛"},{"start":3883.474,"end":3896.549,"text":"那我覺得這樣子變成第三條跟第四條最重要其他跟第十三條新興科技衝突的只要符合第四條其他條都不重要了這樣子好像不太對吧好 謝謝 劉書斌委員"},{"start":3898.698,"end":3925.655,"text":"這一部分請重視這一個部分本來所有的條文法規就是會有要調適的部分因為在這一條已經明定了第四條裡面包括的人類自主智慧財產權的保護資通安全還包括透明跟可接信那范議員你所提到的公平跟不歧視問責這邊都已經在第四條已經把前提列出來了沒有所謂的"},{"start":3927.056,"end":3951.434,"text":"誰優先的部分只是說在這個時期當中在這個情形當中因為現在是在AI的發展階段重要階段如果我們不趕快趕上的話其實是沒辦法去保護到我們的最終的原則是要去發展AI的技術我想這個是階段性的任務所以必須要這樣的一個呈現而且在其他部分並沒有所衝突的情況之下好 謝謝劉淑冰委員 陳秀白委員 謝謝"},{"start":3952.691,"end":3972.433,"text":"現在就是這一條在我的版本裡面是放在第五條我們要如何兼顧人工智慧的開發又要降低人工智慧研發對社會的影響那其實剛剛提到說蘇冰委員提到說在第四條的基本原則的前提之下但是南寶沒有掛一漏萬"},{"start":3973.214,"end":3995.384,"text":"你在上面沒有提到的情況之下萬一有什麼是我們沒有去注意到的部分那你只要把新興技術跟服務放在最前面而且甚至是說有必要修正其他法律對於其他我覺得相關的一些群體一些相關的民眾一些相關的團體這樣子我覺得是很"},{"start":3996.124,"end":4012.031,"text":"好像就覺得在新興科技的發展之下只有科技發展是最重要的那相關的權益相關的這些在社會上我們本來有的共識好像就已經不重要了這個部分我覺得說對社會會有一個很大的疑慮以上好 謝謝"},{"start":4013.231,"end":4027.662,"text":"那我因為這個本席因為也有提出條文我簡單做個回應在七月份美國推出AI action plan其中就有講到要做法規的調適做限制的鬆綁"},{"start":4028.843,"end":4046.204,"text":"只有創新透明問責才有可能去應對所謂的專制的AI或者是不安全的AI所以我想做相關的法規調適這個精神呢是這一條最主要的那也希望能夠鼓勵這個新興的產業"},{"start":4048.446,"end":4071.356,"text":"我想如果這條有委員選擇發放條款也有委員認同那速發部則是次長表達是根本不要靠政府不要有輔助相關的文字所以從這條上面看來可能沒有共識那我們也許這條第13條我們就先保留好"},{"start":4073.956,"end":4086.967,"text":"那我們到接下來謝謝我們進入第14條那我們第14條的部分呢可以看到大本的這一本的第211對不起212頁212頁212頁那這一條有沒有委員有提出意見第14條"},{"start":4111.676,"end":4127.928,"text":"這條是主要在講這個公司協力的一個方式跟民間的合作但是我覺得除了跟民間的合作其實也應該要把國際的合作也要納進去啦可能會更加的全面喔那我想這個可以強調就是政府應該積極推動這個人才技術跟國際的一些交流"},{"start":4128.408,"end":4149.676,"text":"那也有包含這個跟國際共同開發的研究那我覺得應該是可以兼顧國內外兩大的合作的面向去考慮到整個所有的這個包含國際的一些視野可能會再更完整一點就原條文來講好 以上接下來是張二齡委員"},{"start":4151.65,"end":4173.697,"text":"好 那這個我的版本的話是在第九條啦那我一樣是強調就是說因為國際的進步非常非常快發展也非常快我們應該要強調政府要致力於推動人工智慧相關之國際合作來促成我們的人才技術設施的國際交流跟利用並參與國際的共同開發與研究所以我是希望還是強調這個部分這樣子"},{"start":4175.916,"end":4199.616,"text":"好 柯思恩委員好 我正同前面兩位委員所提到的就是除了國內之外國際也是非常的重要那我剛也聽到了次長也特別提到了我們這個很多AI都是來自於民間這大概是國際的一個趨勢民間常常先於政府但是你既然這邊第14條是以政府為主詞那是要來跟民間共同來推動人工智慧的話"},{"start":4200.316,"end":4219.923,"text":"那我的建议是因为基于过去的一些的一些实际的案例啊就是突发的一些状况啊我认为说你这呃我建议应该增加第二项了来防止所谓的合作因为你这边有提到政府要跟民间共同合作的时候呢那我们很害怕就说呃是不是会有一些"},{"start":4220.643,"end":4245.842,"text":"鼓励或者这些状况如果在这里面的话你把名列公开征选合作制度其实说你要跟民间合作的时候有一些更透明化的一个制度的话我提出了这个修正动议那我建议增加第二项是各级主管机关应该建立公平征选合作审查跟透明报告的机制来确保合作案的公平性跟公共利益性并且鼓励中小企业新创团队等等"},{"start":4246.923,"end":4255.714,"text":"來做一個多元的主體參與然後提升全民創新的能量我是認為是應該把這個共同合作部分更把它明確化一下"},{"start":4264.668,"end":4285.936,"text":"謝謝主席我們討論的這個第十四條是我的版本的第五條跟第六條因為真的是大家調子差很多本席在這邊是在第五條有寫明就是政府要建立一個人工智慧的沙盒制度也就是要一個受控的實驗環境"},{"start":4287.336,"end":4303.464,"text":"所以條文是寫為促進人工智慧技術創新與永續發展各目的事業主管機關得針對人工智慧創新產品或服務建立或完備人工智慧研發與應用服務之創新實驗環境"},{"start":4304.725,"end":4323.308,"text":"那這個沙盒制度的建立我想也是在創新實驗上相當重要的在可受控的環境內來加以研發跟實驗那這會是促進人工智慧前端應用的關鍵過程所以請大家支持以上 謝謝好 陳秀寶委員 范瑩委員陳秀寶委員先請 謝謝"},{"start":4324.742,"end":4341.569,"text":"謝謝主席這條裡面在我的版本是發生第六條但我想我們立這個法就會希望說是促進人工智慧發展所以希望說政府跟民間這邊要保持密切聯繫那接著雙方資源來共同發展像舉個例子像去年"},{"start":4342.389,"end":4368.174,"text":"歸達提供這個超級電腦的這個算力給各學院單位來申請那其中我們國科會跟中研院就有執行這個TIDE的計畫這也是產官學合作的一個很好的示範能夠由民間提供足夠的算力的情況之下我們學院單位就可以先行投入研發對於相關的人工智慧開發也能夠跟上世界的腳步所以在這個部分呢我也很期待後續書法部跟民間這個合作能夠繼續的有一個比較快的一個發展以上"},{"start":4368.834,"end":4390.285,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員 范瑩委員 侯孟凱委員 再來次長我的版本的葛如軍委員是14條 我是在第7條那比照一下就是葛如軍委員是國家應基於公司協力原則我的版本是政府已以公司協力"},{"start":4393.627,"end":4406.974,"text":"所以一個是因 一個是疑因跟疑的差異我們委員應該很清楚所以我的版本會給那個政府多一點點空間啦那我剛剛看到那個那個誰"},{"start":4408.855,"end":4426.161,"text":"許智傑委員的是德跟我的比較接近所以我想要問一下因為我的想法是說像有些部分政府可以獨立做或是出發部可以獨立做的那其實就不一定要公司協力嘛那如果需要公司協力的我們當然就去協力"},{"start":4426.661,"end":4454.675,"text":"那這是第一個差異那第二個差異就是我的版本的第二段就是關於國際合作的部分是政府應那許智傑委員這邊也是政府應所以是不是能請速發部表達一下就是說前面我們差異的部分耿如君是應公司協力那我的部分是得然後許智傑等委員也是得林益錦那邊我還沒有比較這到底會對你們有什麼影響這樣"},{"start":4455.963,"end":4465.473,"text":"好 謝謝范瑩委員 侯孟楷委員然後再來萬美玲委員不好意思那個麥克風可以幫孟楷委員遞一下謝謝"},{"start":4468.837,"end":4487.076,"text":"好 感謝各位第十四條我想還是要先講一下很多委員都講說他的版本在第五條 第六條 第幾條那為什麼會有這樣的一個狀況真的還是要譴責速發布你的版本沒有出來就會讓我們各自委員要各自為各自的版本來捍衛跟辯護"},{"start":4488.337,"end":4507.814,"text":"那但是我們回歸到終止以這個原本不管是我們召委的版本或是說比較多的委員的一個版本其實第14條我覺得立法精神非常明確它就是公私協力那共同中央跟地方也好或是政府跟民間也好共同積極的推動人工智慧基本的創新運用我想這個"},{"start":4508.735,"end":4533.797,"text":"立法宗旨絕對沒有問題而且立法宗旨也應該就是如同現在我們大家一起共同推動那後續是不是要再加上是說這個更細的部分不管是說中小企業啦創新團隊啦還是甚至說國際接軌我想國際上因為AI這個東西它本來就不是只有台灣獨身之外我們也不可能閉門造局所以國際接軌本來也就是我們共同的目標要學習國際"},{"start":4535.899,"end":4551.829,"text":"的所長大家共同來運用嘛所以我建議是說是不是把這幾個部分委員好的一個意見都可以把它納入然後還是一樣這速發布應該要有一個版本出來來給我們來做一個最終那如果說沒有的話那這一條是不是就要先保留以上 謝謝"},{"start":4552.529,"end":4580.103,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟凱委員那萬美玲委員 謝謝謝謝昭偉我想在這個政府以公司協力的方式跟民間合作這應該是大家都沒有問題也都有共識那但是我想加上這個在這個人工智慧相關的跟國際合作這件事情其實我個人的版本也有提那我也覺得非常的重要不管在人才技術或是設施上面如果我們可以在這個國際交流跟利用上面更擴大更深入一點"},{"start":4580.663,"end":4588.327,"text":"然後來參與國際共同的研究跟開發我想這個會更完整所以這個是我個人的一個版本好 謝謝萬美玲委員請林益晉次長"},{"start":4591.85,"end":4617.711,"text":"蘇發部這邊認為第一個首先針對范議員所提的是要得或者是因我們認為說得會比較有彈性因為人工智慧的發展真是日新月異不是說每年有新的發展而事實上是每個月每週都有新的發展所以我們是希望說在人工智慧基本法的立法的時候能給我們更多的彈性另外就是這一條我們蘇發部是認為說"},{"start":4619.913,"end":4644.754,"text":"這條立法精神是強調公司協力那會跟國際合作比較有關係所以應該是搭配就是政府應致力於推動人工智慧相關之國際合作這一類的條文會比較合適而不是在一些比較細節的鼓勵中小企業等條文謝謝市長我這邊稍微做個回應"},{"start":4647.776,"end":4666.016,"text":"我覺得政府應確實也可以改為宜因為我們剛剛外媒林委員也有提到所以這邊電腦我覺得我們可以試試看吧我們是不是把應改成宜那剛剛市長也有提到就是我們把國際合作放在前面那這樣就又沒辦法我們就宜基於"},{"start":4667.017,"end":4694.85,"text":"公司協力原則積極進行國際合作並與民間共同推動這個對不起我們這個野人獻鋪一下看有沒有機會來取得大家的共識那底下的紅字部分呢我們柯志恩委員有提出修正東西是說要簡化或者拿掉都可以看我是覺得也不錯但是確實"},{"start":4700.615,"end":4710.265,"text":"國際合作放在這邊意義有點變得不一樣因為我們的版本的國際合作反而是政府因致力於推動人工智慧相關之國際合作"},{"start":4715.089,"end":4740.738,"text":"促進人才技術與設施之國際交流及利用並參與國際共同開發及研究這邊政府變成是應了然後他就不需要強調公私協力公私協力是在前面與民間合作推動人工智慧創新運用所以這個主體變不要你這邊要變成國際合作也要以公私協力了那我們再試一次政府應積極進行"},{"start":4745.447,"end":4772.226,"text":"就放前面嘛 政府應積極什麼再念一次 應...應致力推動人工智慧相關之國際合作好 就這一句先把它key進去好吧 你後面應該是分號就是說 疑或政府 疑或疑得與公司 寫這樣子我念一下 政府 那個委員會同仁我念一次 從第一個字開始 就是政府應"},{"start":4773.547,"end":4800.07,"text":"致力推動人工智慧相關之國際合作那分號並基於公司協力原則那積極進行國際合作就可以拿掉了對並得或是並疑先這樣吧 並疑並疑啊疑就沒有那麼強制性那麼高嘛"},{"start":4802.595,"end":4816.923,"text":"對也可以不用疑啦有點贅字啦你如果法律上疑沒有的話就是變成陰的意思基於就已經不是陰了嘛基於就不是陰了好不好我們疑就先拿掉並基於公私協力原則"},{"start":4818.084,"end":4845.995,"text":"积极与民间共同推动人工智慧之创新应用那个赵伟这样子强度会有差那速发部表达一下疑惑的是病德就是弱一点点弹性大一点请法治处先 次长先我们是认为应该用病德因为前面是因智利于这样会比较有弹性本来就德啦没关系我们请法治处这边有没有张处长可不可以表达一下"},{"start":4847.015,"end":4872.701,"text":"就是說其實基於這個原則就已經不是強制性了基於原則嗎基於這個難道是不基於這個原則嗎因為剛剛次長已經表達了人工智慧的發展不應該是靠政府的啊所以人公司協力基於公司協力的原則有什麼問題呢好次長OK了謝謝那我們就並基於好那這一條第等一下但是後面第二段第二段因為這裡是講說公開甄選合作與審查"},{"start":4879.638,"end":4904.629,"text":"但是就是回到我們那個就是前面講的這樣會讓好像整個立法的那個方向會變成說是政府在主導所以我們建議說第二段整個不要那我們好那我們就後面紅字的部分可以拿掉了對第二項可以拿掉了好那我們就立法說明系統好像比較好"},{"start":4906.411,"end":4930.481,"text":"那第14條我再念一遍來往上先不要急好第14條政府應致力推動人工智慧相關之國際合作並基於公司協力原則積極與民間共同推動人工智慧之創新應用好這一條有沒有委員有意見如果沒有的話我們這一條是不是就照修正通過好可以好"},{"start":4937.53,"end":4958.797,"text":"好那第14條的說明的對對同時呢我們把柯市長委員的修正動議這個事情況我們把它參採一致說明欄位好那我們這邊就照修正通過謝謝第14條好那我們接下來進入第15條"},{"start":4961.727,"end":4991.09,"text":"第15條我們看大本的第218頁218頁那本來葛如君的版本國家在這邊我們也改成政府以保持他的一致性第15條好有沒有委員這個林錦昭委然後郭玉琴委員張雅琳委員武帝華委員柯志恩委員羅廷偉委員"},{"start":4992.947,"end":5014.143,"text":"好 謝謝主席好不容易這一條葛如君招我的版本第15條跟我的版本第15條剛好契合可喜可賀這個根據我拿手一包你知道嗎這個不用拿了這個根據上次我們這個AI基本法的公聽會有許多專家學者的意見"},{"start":5015.744,"end":5042.477,"text":"這一條是討論資料開放跟利用我想這是各界最重視的一點本席在這一條也有提出一個修正動議我是加最後一項就是政府與資料之應用時應同時採取促進智慧財產保護之相關措施或機制"},{"start":5043.217,"end":5070.068,"text":"那因為根據這個智慧財產相關專長的律師給我們的意見那認為說資料的利用它可能會衍生很多智慧財產的爭議所以應用資料的時候也要留意智慧財產保護的相關事宜那政府它應該要採取相關的措施或者機制來防止這個智慧財產權受損或衍生的相關爭議所以我的那個版本有加最後一個我的動議有加最後一項"},{"start":5070.988,"end":5099.745,"text":"那還有就是說那個隔遠的版本就是有寫是像說有一個是政府因智力提升我國人工智慧使用資料怎樣怎樣那隔遠的版本是確保那本來那個修正動議裡面是寫以利我還是認為確保是比較OK的啦那以上"},{"start":5101.195,"end":5119.597,"text":"好 謝謝李儀錦召委我們接下來請郭玉琴委員這一條我有提修正動議那就是後面我特別因為他講的是人工智慧的使用資料的可再利用性那這個部分其實我剛剛跟這個儀錦的差不多就是在特別加增"},{"start":5120.097,"end":5138.772,"text":"就是在採取這個措施避免人工智慧在開發的前後資料的處理訓練跟學習的過程發生智慧財產權的一個侵害那我舉例來講2023年其實好萊塢他們的編劇工會大罷工的時候其實當初他們都非常的擔心這個AI對於編劇的工作他們可能會"},{"start":5139.252,"end":5158.324,"text":"利用這些所謂的這個劇本AI的這個劇本再訓練這個AI那對這個所謂的智慧財產權也會造成一定程度的侵害所以這個部分我想在這個修正動議在制定這個人工智慧基本法的時候我覺得應該要增加避免人工智慧在開發前後的資料處理訓練跟學習過程侵害到這個智慧財產權的部分"},{"start":5163.527,"end":5179.854,"text":"所以這個我有跟林玉琴委員有特別再提一個修正東西這樣子好謝謝郭玉琴委員接下來請伍麗華委員然後張雅琳然後羅廷瑋委員那我們先讓次長然後然後謝謝先這個伍麗華委員謝謝"},{"start":5182.133,"end":5200.999,"text":"好謝謝主席對關於這一條確實是各界最重視的一條因為涉及到維護智慧財產權所以呢這個部分我的意見也是一樣的就是希望特別在這一條再把怎麼維護"},{"start":5202.92,"end":5221.042,"text":"智慧財產權這個部分能夠把它單獨列一項來促進智慧財產權的保護相關措施因為我們都看到現在在AI應用的時候不管是學術成果或者是新聞的成果"},{"start":5221.963,"end":5245.285,"text":"最近這些年都會傳出就是沒有經授權就使用這些資料或者餵養這種AI模型的爭議所以呢我也特別就是希望能夠在這一條當中特別去獨立一下那我自己也有修正動議那希望特別來強調自衛財產權的保障措施所以像林怡瑾召委她的這個"},{"start":5246.626,"end":5261.5,"text":"第15條他有增加第三項政府應採取措施避免人工智慧開發前後之資料處理訓練學習過程發生智慧財產權之侵害那我大概支持這樣的一個文字謝謝謝謝吳麗華委員接下來請張雅玲委員"},{"start":5267.617,"end":5287.013,"text":"其实我的部分就是跟大家都差不多就是要来去建立资料的开放共享及再利用制度并且定期的检视与调整相关的法令此外资料治理必须兼顾多元文化价值与智慧财产权所以我们是希望AI的训练资料能反映"},{"start":5287.493,"end":5304.566,"text":"台湾多元族群的特性避免产生偏差或伤害弱势群体同时维护人民的智慧财产权透过这样子的机制兼顾创新发展与权益保障不过我对于这个葛昭伟的第15条里面我有两个"},{"start":5306.694,"end":5332.107,"text":"兩個名詞吧我可能看得不是很清不是很理解希望待會可能也可以再要請葛昭偉幫我們科普一下啦就是可加解密之再利用性以及價值可追溯記錄之特性這兩個名詞我有點不太確定他的意思是什麼好謝謝張雅玲委員待會再做回覆那接下來柯志恩委員然後羅廷偉委員然後陳秀寶委員范雲委員然後劉書斌委員"},{"start":5333.577,"end":5360.918,"text":"我觉得每个人都非常的在乎这个条文里面特别是对于再利用还有它的一些资料的开放性我想等一下请述发部是不是跟我们回应一下这个有关于这个开放的共享的这个等级的分类到底是谁来去做因为这里面涵盖这样的一个概念我本来是想要提一个修正动议就是应该建立资料开放跟共享等级的一个分类还有它的标准"},{"start":5361.478,"end":5378.88,"text":"跟授權管理的一個制度因為大家會非常的關切就是萬一不同年齡層的孩子看到這樣的一個資訊是否有需要更加以的來防衛我想非常多的民間團體都會做這樣所以有關於這個等級的分類到底是誰來做"},{"start":5380.021,"end":5404.043,"text":"教育部 抒发部还是等等之类我想这个东西要先把它理定清楚我们才有办法说不管是在利用在开放的时候这些的把关机制我觉得是一个非常非常重要等级分类只问一个是谁来去做不要东西一放了到最后没人做这个东西真的是一个基本法放下去没有个执行单位我觉得这个是相当严重的"},{"start":5404.505,"end":5429.396,"text":"好 謝謝柯志恩委員 接下來請羅廷偉委員好 我想呼應柯志恩委員所說的我想資料庫的建立是需要非常完善的而且在這樣子的一個基本法裡面如果沒有定定的清楚 我也非常的擔憂是不是後續在這個分層的時候大家互推又會有這樣子的一個狀況產生 最後都沒有人願意做所以我覺得在這個部分上我們今天應該來釐清一下 謝謝"},{"start":5432.145,"end":5458.75,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員接下來請陳秀寶委員然後范雲委員然後劉書斌委員 侯孟凱委員謝謝主席在這條本席的提案裡面是在14條政府應建立資料開放共享與再利用機制提供人工智慧使用資料之可利用性並進行檢視與調整相關法令及規範那本席這邊的想法跟葛昭偉蠻相似的就是"},{"start":5459.53,"end":5470.557,"text":"我也認為說政府應該提升人工智慧使用資料之品質與數量避免使用錯誤或虛偽資料導致人工智慧生成之內容有混淆民眾的情況甚至產生損害並且應該同時兼顧人工智慧的訓練及生成結果來維繫多元文化價值與保障智慧財產權"},{"start":5478.962,"end":5496.509,"text":"所以這個部分呢 我的條文是寫政府應致力提升我國人工智慧使用資料之品質與數量並避免使用錯誤或虛偽的資料確保人工智慧訓練及生成結果維繫國家多元文化價值與維護智慧財產權 以上謝謝陳秀寶委員 接下來請范瑀委員"},{"start":5501.941,"end":5529.334,"text":"就是說這條大概有兩個部分第一個部分大家有共同意見的就是要建立資料開放共享及再利用機制等等等等就這個部分來講的話就是國務卿委員等很多委員提出來的修正前面多了一個為什麼為什麼就是政府因本與什麼永久性可加密價值可追溯記錄可是這個原因其實就立法技術來講不一定需要寫在這"},{"start":5530.294,"end":5542.228,"text":"只要寫建立什麼什麼機制就好而且這個原因可能會有些爭議譬如說有人就會認為說有些資料不用加密再利用解密再利用加解密有些資料不需要追溯記錄反而讓"},{"start":5545.031,"end":5564.355,"text":"就是說這個資料是不是具有這些性引起爭議所以是不是前面那個部分可以刪掉就是政府應該建立資料開放共享及再利用機制因為這個大家也是共識最高的不需要去詮釋說為什麼原因因為立法技術有時候詮釋放在說明就好了那這是第一個我的意見"},{"start":5565.335,"end":5591.56,"text":"那這個說這條文的第二段的部分就是我想大家都有共同的價值譬如說國家多元文化維護智慧財產權那我們也知道美國很多報社就是去告那個就是那些什麼CHAT GPT等等然後而且有告成所以智慧財產權這個部分很重要那但是我發現我們的條文的差別是葛如君委員這邊跟很多委員的今天的修正版就只有寫到確保訓練結果"},{"start":5594.32,"end":5618.245,"text":"後面那我跟我們一些委員的有多個除了訓練結果之外後面多了一個急產出我是覺得急產出要寫進去啦不要只有訓練因為只有訓練的話萬一產出沒有呢所以是不是大家可以也把那個確保訓練結果後面加上急產出以上就這兩個意見 謝謝好 謝謝 接下來請劉書斌委員"},{"start":5623.356,"end":5648.194,"text":"好 這個第15條的重點在於人工智慧的資料使用是可利用性還有開放性那這個部分沒有問題但是很重要的一點就是說如果要可利用性還包括開放性的情況之下可能要有一個資料平台是需要有一些要通用格式因為如果你沒有通用格式的話這部分會造成很多的很多的時候在試用上是有問題的"},{"start":5649.815,"end":5669.026,"text":"但是在通用格式當中更重要的是在於說也配合到格委員第15條的內容當中有提到價值可追溯性紀錄之特性這個價值這一部分因為後來呈現出來的包括像你怎麼依健保的等等的這種資料或是更重要的一些相關資料它事實上是相當有價值的那這個部分我覺得本黨的強調是說應該建立要所謂的資料資產化的概念要有建立起來"},{"start":5678.632,"end":5687.178,"text":"那不然這樣的地方即使是但是這部分因為有涉及到公共利益的部分所以我覺得在速發部這邊在訂定的時候必須要把這種資產價值化讓這個部分也讓鼓勵到私人企業如果在運用這個資料的時候在速發部這些規我們現在AI基本法的規範之下但是它能夠有一個也有一個在適當的利益的這個價值當中能夠做一些的一個保障這樣子才能夠促使說引進私人"},{"start":5707.173,"end":5711.396,"text":"利益的私人機構的這邊的加入參與謝謝謝謝劉淑冰委員接下來請洪孟凱委員那個麥克風可以換一下那個"},{"start":5727.806,"end":5747.585,"text":"喂 好 周緯謝謝喔第15條我想大家剛討論這一些我想概念跟核心價值沒有問題但是我要必須要直接請教素發布你應該要說明一下是說在第15條你們的想像跟未來政府或是國家要負的責任是什麼為什麼這樣講呢是因為我這樣看這第15條"},{"start":5749.741,"end":5766.059,"text":"不管大家各自條文版本不太相同但是其實開眾秘都講說政府也好或國家也好應該要有這個資料的永久性加密等等的這個特性然後建立資料開放共享跟再利用機制那未來是說如果通過這之後是政府要主導要一個資料庫嗎"},{"start":5768.397,"end":5790.686,"text":"是你政府要主導一個資料庫的概念你才能夠建立一個資料開放共享跟再利用的機制那這是不是我們現在政府未來要走的方向這等一下請蘇發報直接說明不然的話這一條條文看起來是這樣那還有再來第二段的部分是說政府要提升智力我們人工智慧的使用資料品質跟數量"},{"start":5791.306,"end":5813.097,"text":"不管是我們葛如軍委員召委的這個版本其實我覺得在修正之後這個用字比較精準就確保訓練結果是展現國家多元文化跟維護智慧財產權我想展現國家多元文化跟維護智慧財產權是絕對沒有問題這是普世價值可是如果說以剛剛好幾位委員的版本看起來的話是政府要來做這件事情"},{"start":5813.917,"end":5832.837,"text":"政府要來確保人工智慧的使用資料之後要展現國家多元文化價值跟維護智慧財產權那將來會不會如果說這一條依照很多委員的版本的寫法的話那將來有任何人因為人工智慧的運用而智慧財產權受損的話那是不是也可以找政府當作是一個球場的單位"},{"start":5834.534,"end":5850.253,"text":"我覺得這個是速發部你應該要說明清楚的你們的一個立法精神在這條討論裡面因為這是母法 這是基本法所以說當然應該要更嚴謹一點所以說速發部的態度很重要請讓我們知道 以上謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員 葉元芝委員"},{"start":5853.147,"end":5879.28,"text":"對 我也是呼應一下那個洪孟改委員也是請等一下抒發部來考慮一下因為民間現在其實很在乎的是他們現在有很多模型要做訓練的時候會去抓一些資料但抓資料之後又怕那些資料可能有侵權的問題所以常常他們的法務也很頭痛就這個資料到底可以抓還是不可以抓那我不曉得說這個母法定下來之後這個問題能不能解決啦所以請抒發部也來回應一下 謝謝"},{"start":5881.769,"end":5898.115,"text":"好 謝謝葉仁芝委員那我這邊也稍微做個說明第15條真的非常感動看到有超過10位委員都有非常關心這一條真的是我們AI基本法的靈魂所在但是在這裡我也要用靈魂來再次譴責速發布"},{"start":5899.716,"end":5922.453,"text":"因為訴發部沒有提出不版的草案我們也譴責行政院沒有提出行政院的版本導致其實跨黨派的委員都有共同的一致認同的精神在公聽會當中也有所有的學界跟專家都提出說這個資料進行訓練以及尊重版權這件事情大家都是認可的"},{"start":5922.913,"end":5940.738,"text":"但是我們沒有一個一致的版本導致非常多的委員都有共同的關心但是條次不同文字略有不同等等所以我想這一點我們還是要再次譴責那因為我本席這裡也有提出一些版本那我就稍微簡單做個說很快速的說明"},{"start":5942.258,"end":5963.123,"text":"絕對尊重智慧財產權所以我們在這一條的最後一段也提到了一定要來維護智慧財產權同時在第四條就是我們的修正版今天的這個這個跨黨派委員的修正版我們今天提出的修正動議的第四條其中也有"},{"start":5963.743,"end":5984.633,"text":"非常重要的採納了包括萬美林委員還有多位委員在內的第四項也就是智慧財產之保護所以呢這一點精神是已經納入進本法的那同時呢剛剛有張雅琳委員有提到這個可加解密還有價值可追溯等等其實我們希望能夠明確的"},{"start":5985.974,"end":6010.429,"text":"讓大家知道資料開放不是就被看光光用技術的做法可以加密也就是你的內容不會因為你被政府開放了所有人就免費閱讀免費下載可以不是這樣的同時呢價值是可以保存追溯的也就是如果你的資料被運用了可是政府的訓練的機構"},{"start":6012.93,"end":6021.297,"text":"在訓練的過程不一定能夠直接支付代償等等也許這個訓練的點數或記錄可以被保存下來他可以之後再進行相關的compensation就是所謂的補償在日本進行相關的法令修正其實就是訓練的部分可以盡可能的訓練可是在產出的時候依照他訓練的過程來進行所謂的"},{"start":6038.912,"end":6041.714,"text":"價值的討論所以這一點我們希望放在這裡也是希望能夠讓大家理解我們所採取的路線是所謂的有價而且可加密的開放我們也希望大家可以來支持這樣的一個做法"},{"start":6055.021,"end":6059.822,"text":"同時剛剛有委員提到授權還有分級還有分類等等其實我們的綜合版的第六條有相關的保護有未成年人的保護我們也有第九條關於相關的學校教育單位主管機關要進行的指引所以我們這裡是有相關的條文都有提到的"},{"start":6084.306,"end":6101.529,"text":"那同時呢剛剛范瑀委員有提到這個只提到訓練結果沒有提到產出我也覺得這個建議非常好所以如果待會我們有機會進到這個細節文字的時候我覺得這個把產出放進來也是可以考慮的那因為非常多委員都希望這個速發部這裡來回應那是不是請次長OK 剛才感謝許多委員的意見"},{"start":6111.182,"end":6137.589,"text":"對於書發部這邊來講我們是認為說這個政府應該建立資料開放共享及再利用機制這個部分是沒有問題的但是關於這個永久性事實上這個很難定義那個我們不曉得如何操作就像我們二三十年前我們都認為說只要燒成光碟就可以永久保存但是現在光碟我們都讀不到因為沒有人在賣光碟機了所以這個永久性是我們這個整個"},{"start":6139.469,"end":6166.695,"text":"數位產業大家都想要追求的但是在這邊立法裡面講說要做那個永久性我們真不知道這個定義可能太模糊我是建議說不要提永久性然後再來再利用性這個地方我們也都覺得沒有問題但是可加解密之再利用性我們認為說這個太技術性了事實上剛剛包含那個張亮林委員等等也提到事實上這些文字我們都看不太懂我想不單單是那個非"},{"start":6169.056,"end":6197.197,"text":"電腦專業人士就是覺得看不太懂事實上我一輩子都在這個領域裡面我覺得我也不是很了解可加解密之再利用性具體是什麼意思再來是那個價值可追溯記錄價值可追溯記錄坦白講這個我們也覺得事實上是定義有點太技術性了而且這個不是在學界或者是產業界常用的就是說取得共識的一個概念"},{"start":6197.597,"end":6208.688,"text":"所以建議是把這個文字把它移除就是用一些我們大家都能同意而且能具體去實施的一些條文謝謝市長請回應"},{"start":6220.189,"end":6248.314,"text":"資料分類的共享等級這個也是一樣就是說坦白講我還沒聽過所以資料分類的共享等級我覺得你的措辭大家都是來自學界你不能因為你一級的部分就否定說這些你也看不懂不會 我知道這對昭偉的文字來說我覺得這有點disgrace我是來自產業界不是來自學界那還是一樣嘛"},{"start":6248.994,"end":6275.451,"text":"有人来自学业的产业界你不能因为你没有听过你就完全否定说他的意思到底是怎么样我觉得这样的措辞我觉得可能需要可以让他更和善一点然后呢产业界里面还是一句话你有很多的分类店也有分类那你这些的资料也会需要有一些的分类那分类的一个标准我们要只是问一个额外问一个就是说这个东西是由您书发部来去做还是由国客会来做还是由教育部来做"},{"start":6275.871,"end":6290.845,"text":"我觉得这个部分应该是可以来做一个这样子的一个回应因为我们看到这个第六条里面他这边只是告诉我们我回顾到刚刚赵伟所说的第六条里面他说有一些认定的高风险应用者应该明确注意这个"},{"start":6291.906,"end":6306.181,"text":"要放出这个所谓的警语那这个高风险AI应用应该就是就需要一个明确的一个那警语到底是具体怎么样做等等我懂我像只是说刚刚周伟有特别提到他说第六条跟第十五条"},{"start":6306.761,"end":6328.079,"text":"彼此之间可以互换来去看的虽然我们在讨论第十五条但是赵伟刚刚也提到了很多我们刚刚所关切我跟罗廷伟委员所关切的对于一些年龄层次这些所谓的资料的这个分类他告诉我们要回顾到第六条那我就回顾看到第六条啊可是第六条这个层次里面所显示出来我还是不需要说这个我还是不清楚"},{"start":6328.84,"end":6355.775,"text":"第一条所写的具体的做法是怎么样认定跟审查程序需要制度化那教育部跟数位部有没有共同的认定等等所以我总认为第15条虽然是一个上法但是有些执行的层面上面你透过文字里面把它界定的更清楚更能够保护到这个不同层级不同看这个资料的这个等等我觉得术发部可以在这个地方就好用我的语言分类好吧谁来做这个分类的标准次长"},{"start":6357.552,"end":6359.8,"text":"資料的分類資料哪一方面的分類你這邊"},{"start":6362.021,"end":6388.044,"text":"是什么样的分类是风险等级的分类还是说是那个PG-13还是那种我不晓得PG-13OKI really have no idea what is about the PG-13但你这个就是那个儿少保护的分类还是哪一方面的分类这个要讲清楚我坦白讲我并不是很了解委员的意思就是说资料分类我们事实上我们每天都在做资料的分类但是这个到底是指哪一方"},{"start":6388.564,"end":6413.666,"text":"哪一方面的资料分类我个人认为说本来我在这个地方应该因为你在这个条文上面我们应该是要建立资料开放跟共享等级的这个分类标准格式跟授权的管理我现在只是care到这个部分我们开放到这个资料的时候呢你会透过不同的方法什么样的人什么样的方式什么样的族群可以来把这个资料的这个部分能够把它更清楚好吧"},{"start":6414.306,"end":6423.951,"text":"我覺得我跟次長溝通上有一些的問題我們要請我們最原始可以做這樣的資料分類你們總要聽得懂吧國會誰告訴誰不懂什麼叫資料分類你跟產業界說一下吧"},{"start":6432.698,"end":6454.246,"text":"范委員然後可能國科會這裡來做個回應我是覺得那個我們還是回到那個法律的文字的修啦那不知道柯志恩委員的那個資料分類因為我們有看到柯志恩是在你的版本中嗎我們就是看是今天提出來的還是原本就有的是今天提出來因為我手上沒有柯志恩委員的條文"},{"start":6460.504,"end":6471.073,"text":"直行的方法講未來的啦所以其實跟我們今天的條文沒有職業關係他是問一個未來的資料分類是誰做應該就主管機關吧如果有的話"},{"start":6471.973,"end":6497.848,"text":"因為我們後來待會兒就是好像十八十九條針對風險分類有明文的討論我們可以到那邊再討論那現在這邊我聽到了就是次長建議說把那個產業界或者等等會稍微有些不同意見的前面的國家為什麼原因或政府為什麼原因刪掉我也覺得蠻好的因為就法律技術以前我們會被告訴說為什麼原因不一定要講也可以講到"},{"start":6499.049,"end":6524.462,"text":"說明文字中最重要是要做什麼事那所以不需要在為什麼原因中大家有一些沒有共識的文字那最重要就是說多數委員的版本都有建立資料開放共享級再利用這個機制這邊有就好了那另外其他委員有一些就是我們剛剛講到謝謝主席召委接受說除了訓練結果之外再加產出也許我們就回到法律文字啦那柯政委員只是想問你問題那個"},{"start":6525.723,"end":6551.812,"text":"那個大家覺得次長不要就是覺得好像大家都不對這樣讓他聽起來不太舒服我想這是就回應的方式就是說有一些建議這樣好 以上謝謝范瑀委員國客會這邊有沒有要補充說明我們還是非常這個感謝國客會在去年10月有曾經一度提出預告的草案版本這一點我想還是我們表達感謝"},{"start":6554.496,"end":6580.143,"text":"我想柯委員關心的就是說我們資料開放應用是為了創新但是我們不能夠不保障人權我們還有人權的議題這個就牽涉到風險那風險的部分其實我們數學部其實也是建議建議我們會有風險分類比如說我們在人體的資料或者是一般"},{"start":6581.654,"end":6594.49,"text":"那就是會有主管部會會有主管部會那那個資料治理的部分其實蘇發部也在制定這個作用法所以這個會搭配在一起好"},{"start":6597.035,"end":6615.8,"text":"謝謝主委那國會主委也是兼政務委員我想剛剛的討論非常多委員都是本於理性跟法條那我想柯志恩委員還有我們對委員針對法條提出這個看法那也希望從速發部這裡來得到一些速發部這裡的觀點"},{"start":6617.46,"end":6638.269,"text":"但是之所以我們要在這裡去詢問也是因為我們在速發部這裡得到的意見非常有限草案條文也沒有提出那我們也就希望能夠藉由這樣的交流能夠知道速發部未來因為雖然我們的版本的條文是希望國科會來作為主委機關但是行政院也一直說是由"},{"start":6638.709,"end":6665.595,"text":"速發部那速發部就應該要對這些事情就算你條文草案沒有提出你應該對後續的執行可能有一些想法所以我想這個對話的過程當中也請這個速發部這邊再麻煩就是如同范議員所提的我們也許就是很平和的針對法條來討論那這裡我做兩點簡要的說明第一是關於所謂的資料具有永久性我們現在2025年"},{"start":6667.375,"end":6685.634,"text":"自从2018年出现一个叫区块链的技术以后其实资料永久性就已经有机会被解决了现在也有包含所谓的星际档案系统IPFS等等的一些技术能够来帮助资料做更永续的"},{"start":6686.275,"end":6711.603,"text":"更分散式的儲存那我想這個之所以加注這些技術性的當然也包含台灣我們其實是科技之島我們有非常多優異的團隊對這些資料處理跟保護的技術是非常非常能夠支持跟理解的那如果我們只用了共享跟再利用以及資料開放我們也會擔心產業界以及版權方"},{"start":6712.463,"end":6736.488,"text":"是不是會誤會他們沒有受到相關的價值、程序性以及是不是就會被看光光所以我想這樣子的文字加進來是有它的考量存在那我想我們先回過頭來我們是不是至少我想這個范雲委員的意見我們可以試著把它放進來在最後的第二項的部分確保"},{"start":6738.92,"end":6745.22,"text":"訓練即產出結果好不好即產出結果好是"},{"start":6747.384,"end":6775.258,"text":"想問昭緯因為後面那個資料開放共享集再利用大家都有共識嘛那前面要不要寫那個資料的特性那幾個特性如果放在說明文字是不是OK然後速發部覺得如果可以的話我們就把它移到說明文字如果速發部也覺得OK的話那這樣子這條就可以通過要不然就保留如何因為這條我們討論很久了對啊這裡我們我先謝謝范瑀委員我先簡要的再做個說明"},{"start":6776.317,"end":6800.347,"text":"其實在資料開放的部分全球都在關注那日本的處理是完全把它做一個開放沒有任何有償的機制也不一定去探討到資料的價值那我們台灣能不能夠有一個台灣價值的AI基本法把它放在本文有它的技術性意義"},{"start":6801.207,"end":6830.649,"text":"那当然在这里我想我们先听听看速发部次长的说法我们次长请谢谢那个建议有两个方法第一个建议有两个方法第一个是把那个永久性还有那个可加解密这几个文字还有那个价值可追溯记录这几个字放到立法说明里面而不要放到本文这是一个方法那另外一个方法就是我们保留"},{"start":6834.298,"end":6855.334,"text":"其他委員有好那我想我們是不是這一條我們試著修修看我們先把這個資把本於政府應建立資料開放對先編輯試試看"},{"start":6874.872,"end":6883.078,"text":"好 那我這邊唸一下"},{"start":6890.444,"end":6903.543,"text":"政府應建立資料開放、共享及再利用機制以提升人工智慧使用資料之可利用性並定期檢視與調整相關法令及規範"},{"start":6905.103,"end":6929.992,"text":"政府應致力提升我國人工智慧使用資料之品質與數量確保訓練及產出結果足以展現國家多元文化價值與維護智慧財產權好那本來的前述的一些描述性的技術性的文字我們就放到說明欄位那是郭義行委員"},{"start":6932.079,"end":6951.751,"text":"我有一個建議就是那個維護智慧財產權的部分是不是可以把它寫成是避免就是在就是避免那個過程會侵害到智慧財產權就是說避免智慧財產權在第四條就有提到智慧財產權之保護"},{"start":6952.651,"end":6970.498,"text":"人工智慧之發展及應用應遵守智慧財產權相關條文使其不受侵害在第4條第4條的第4項謝謝委員提出好那如果大家沒有意見我想我們人工智慧基本法的靈魂第15條我們就修正通過"},{"start":6975.393,"end":6999.398,"text":"也希望我們這一次的討論我相信整個產業都在看全世界也都在看也希望我們今天修正的結果所有的委員我們一起來共同維護包含交通委員會的委員還有我們今天列席所有的官員也希望這個精神就確定的落實也幫助我們的產業來積極的發展"},{"start":7001.578,"end":7014.666,"text":"好那我們這一條第15條修正通過那再來呢我們就是第16條好那我們第16條呢是在第229頁大本的這一本"},{"start":7035.387,"end":7043.228,"text":"好 那有沒有委員針對第16條有意見 建議或說明張雅琳委員 謝謝"},{"start":7045.529,"end":7068.147,"text":"那這條話我有增加第二項就是說主要還是強調就是未成年的未成年人的個資保護就是說因為我們針對於未成年的個資保護應該去強調少收少用也就是要遵守一個資料最小化的原則並且採取風險控款的措施來確保他們這些資料不會輕易的外洩或者是被濫用"},{"start":7069.468,"end":7093.948,"text":"那這條也有提到說負責個資保護的主管機關應該主動協助其他部會根據國內外的資料保護標準和指引一起把個資保護的制度建立起來讓不管是哪個領域在用AI都有一套完整的隱私保護機制簡單來說這條就是在提醒政府AI可以推但是人民的隱私要顧尤其是小孩的部分謝謝"},{"start":7095.353,"end":7099.836,"text":"好謝謝張雅琳委員我們接下來是林益錦召委那郭育晴委員然後林益錦召委謝謝這第16條其實在強調這隱私權的保障其實非常重要那剛剛就是呼應一下剛剛那個張雅琳委員那這個部分我也有特別就是提這個修正動議"},{"start":7119.309,"end":7144.789,"text":"就是說在取用個人資料的當下其實應該是要得到當事人的同意但如果是被取用的資料的當事人他是未成年人那也必須要有當事人知情跟明確自主表示之同意那訂定自主同意之最低的年齡限制那若為不符合限制者就應該取得監護人的授權或同意"},{"start":7145.169,"end":7169.122,"text":"那在人工智慧研發跟應用的過程所收集的這些產生的這個未成年人的個資不得用於商業目的那這個部分是我們特別有提這樣的修正東西把它增加進去因為我想這個我們可能要把電力自主同意的最低的年紀限制是不是也應該要把它寫進去會比較完整好 以上"},{"start":7169.522,"end":7189.499,"text":"好 謝謝郭玉琴委員 接下來請林瑩璟召委 然後黃建豪委員 然後范雲委員 謝謝謝主席這條16條是我的版本的第14條那這條牽涉到當然就是各自保護機關也就是可能未來的這個個人資料保護委員會 那就是現在的這個籌備會"},{"start":7191.781,"end":7211.665,"text":"那本席在這一條有相當大的這個幅度的修正動議首先在第一項裡面我有加一些文字就是避免公務機關與非公務機關為不必要之個人資料收集處理或利用那為什麼要加這個公務機關與非公務機關這個基本上"},{"start":7218.627,"end":7242.478,"text":"是因為符合憲法法庭11憲判第13號的文字所以加這個可能在法律上會更加完整接著在第二項跟第三項本席希望在這個基本法就建立基本的AI濫用的避免原則這個是有關於即時的遠端生物辨識系統執法的部分"},{"start":7243.138,"end":7271.848,"text":"那政府除了啦重大的犯罪偵查啦或者預防重大犯罪威脅或者為防止國家遭受重大國家安全危害的目的以外不得於公共場合使用這個即時的遠端生物辨識系統來執法那而什麼範圍該當就妨礙第三項那就需參佐司法院法務部還有全國律師聯合會以及相關全國性社會團體的意見後定職有加這些文字喔"},{"start":7273.048,"end":7297.305,"text":"這個某個程度是確保這個它的這個正當程序然後它整個法規的調適因為它涉及高度的法律專業所以真的需要有法律的專業社群來參與這個規範的設計然後才能符合整個憲法保障的這個人權架構跟正當的程序原則所以我有加第二項跟第三項以上"},{"start":7300.621,"end":7318.76,"text":"好謝謝林警召委我們接下來請柯智恩委員黃建豪委員然後再來請這個范雲委員好謝謝召委那個第16條一開始想說個人資料保護主管機關好這部分的話因為按照個人資料保護法的主管機關是所謂的這個"},{"start":7320.541,"end":7339.471,"text":"這個個人資料保護委員會但是個人資料保護委員會目前看起來他還在籌備嘛他還沒有真正的成為一個主管機關那所以我要講說這一條部分我認為啦我個人建議說是不是要修正就不用特別去強調誰是主管機關然後主管機關來協助各目的事業主管機關就在我的認知裡面"},{"start":7340.712,"end":7353.528,"text":"各事業主管機關 各目的事業主管機關本來就應該要遵守個人資料保護法而不是說我還要再有一個上位的或是其他單位的主管機關來監管我任何一個任何一個單一的事業單位所以我要講說"},{"start":7360.422,"end":7380.145,"text":"擔心沒人管所以把它法條裡面如果入法的話如果有主管機關他本來就會來管這個事情就不用特別去強調把它寫在法律裡面法律裡面要強調這後面的條文但是我覺得第一段話是可以審去的以上是我的見解 謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員接下來有請范雲委員 謝謝"},{"start":7383.836,"end":7405.588,"text":"這個部分我的版本跟葛如君等就是今天那個版本我看到的那個差異就是在於倒數的那個兩句話就是葛如君委員這邊是並促進個人資料保護納入預設及設計相關措施或機制以回復當事人權益那我的版本這邊多了一個病因"},{"start":7406.488,"end":7427.165,"text":"促進個人資料保護納入預設及設計那我是覺得預設及設計相關措施非常重要因為像一般的隱私保護你如果設計的時候就是預設它就沒有的話那就會很危險所以這邊是不是強化把那個英字加進來就好了因為本來葛如荀等委員的都有促進"},{"start":7427.905,"end":7450.598,"text":"促进在我们立委来看有时候就会弱了一点到时候这个事业主管个人资料保护主管机关如果说我有促进可是做的不够我们就觉得加个英字会更好那这部分待会也听听主管机关的部分我是有点不确定刚刚黄建豪委员的那意见是不是可行等一下也请术发部等表达意见好"},{"start":7451.178,"end":7456.46,"text":"這邊我簡要謝謝范議員委員我簡要做個回應剛才有委員有提到這個兒少的資料個資那這一點我的一些意見是如果要針對兒少的資料個資做特別保護的話反而對於他們的個資是有風險的因為他很可能必須被特別標記那很可能就會造成未來有不肖的業者或資訊在處理傳輸的過程當中確實有可能反而有更多的隱患"},{"start":7479.531,"end":7491.916,"text":"所以我想不一定需要區分我們也相信主管機關應該會一致性的保護以憲法的平等為原則保護所有人的個資這是第一點第二點范議員所說的因這件事呢我反而覺得可能會過強的原因是現在很多人在討論所謂的資料可吸那所謂的可吸也是屬於個資的保護也就是說你所產出的資料是屬於你的但是這很可能也會有資料標記或儲存的問題"},{"start":7507.282,"end":7514.988,"text":"所以我想這個也許過嚴或過鬆都不宜或許我們就不一定要加注文字那在這裡我們是不是先聽一下這個速發部的這個意見那我們來看這一條是不是要修正或保留"},{"start":7526.396,"end":7540.629,"text":"關於這一條書發部基本上沒有特別的意見那我們會尊重委員那至於剛才范委員提的要不要加入英這件事情我們也尊重那個法院立法院的大家的意見謝謝好"},{"start":7542.67,"end":7561.291,"text":"這個張阿玲委員我想問一下就是未成年的這個個資化它其實是遵守一個資料最小化原則那這個部分我想請蘇發布就來回應一下這到底為什麼會造成所謂的標記的問題因為其實後面還有在加注的是一個財行風險控管的措施我的條文裡面是有這樣子的文字來 請次長"},{"start":7570.343,"end":7582.47,"text":"各支 這是各支籌備會的權限這個可能 我們今天有各支籌備會的人員列席啊有沒有 市長這邊是要表達意見嗎還是讓籌備會這裡籌備會這邊我們各支籌備會今天有"},{"start":7599.156,"end":7610.589,"text":"兩位有林益成組長跟曾傑科長是組長嘛對不對有這個謝謝你們都經常來練習那要不要有沒有意見來回應一下我們張阿玲委員對林益成組長"},{"start":7616.636,"end":7641.334,"text":"指科委員好這邊籌備處這邊稍微回應說各自保護的那個最小化原則它屬於一般性的通用性原則所以它基本上是屬於那種普遍通用性的一個規範它是跟那個可能跟特定目的的收集或者是一些法定室友的一個最小化保護的資料原則所以不會特定去限制一些特定專屬的對象這邊稍微做一個說明"},{"start":7645.131,"end":7645.894,"text":"好 范議員謝謝"},{"start":7648.035,"end":7674.787,"text":"因為在那個精神上我蠻支持張雅玲委員這個把兒少個資這個最小化原則放進去那但是我有點不知道它的影響然後您剛講那個通用化的原則那因為剛又有那個我主張要因然後召委覺得不要所以我建議這條保留好不好因為那個相關的影響大家可以再去找各方專家多一點討論就這條如果這部分沒有共識的話"},{"start":7676.055,"end":7700.086,"text":"我想謝謝范雲委員我想各自真的也是靈魂所以這一塊我這邊是可以用併音我可以把音加進去把范雲委員的意見納入進來那因為個人資料保護法個人資料保護主管機關這裡因為黃建豪委員剛剛有提一個建議所以是不是您可以回應一下"},{"start":7702.267,"end":7731.067,"text":"這個林組長這邊要不要回應一下你們到底角色是什麼因為我們是有的委員會很尊重你們啊覺得你們是主管機關你們要來協助其他主管機關但是有委員也發表看法說未必需要所以這邊是不是您在針對黃建豪委員的意見來提出一下看法那也許保留這一條這個說不定我們就可以修正通過不一定要保留"},{"start":7732.987,"end":7756.873,"text":"謝謝召委那這邊說明說組織機關立場的話基本上也是以協助各部會目的事業組織機關來做各自保護的一些法令上的諮詢跟解釋那些通信的原則的話我們會來做協助好我想這個黃建華委員的意見"},{"start":7758.12,"end":7782.313,"text":"我想其實應該也是要參採討論一下啦那看黃俊豪委員要不要再提出一下看法好謝謝張偉我的意思是說各支保護籌備處或是未來的各支保護委員會的職責本來就是要做這件事情那今天把這個個人資料保護主管機關應協助各目的事業主管機關入法但"},{"start":7783.746,"end":7810.673,"text":"這是本來就該做的那今天在這個法律裡面把它入法那其他的法案我沒有寫這一條的時候會不會就意味著我不需要處理這件事情他說他會拿說因為這條法律裡面有講說各自保護委員會需要來協助其他法律沒有叫我協助所以我就不用協助了嗎好 好不好 謝謝謝謝 那我們劉喜廷委員然後詹阿林委員我出個意見因為"},{"start":7813.409,"end":7841.751,"text":"應該是各目的事業主管機關都有機會用到AI基本法對不對所以把各目的事業主管機關變主持各目的事業主管機關應會同個人資料保護主管機關然後後面一樣就變成你在處理這些事的時候你要有一個會同的過程嘛然後變成大家都共同參與你就可以完成後面的這些內容我覺得這樣寫起來可能會比較流暢一些我除了建議給大家參考謝謝好那我們先往這邊修改看看好不好各目的事業主管機關會同"},{"start":7844.06,"end":7861.091,"text":"個人資料保護主管機關然後要陰嗎 陰在也不用就是在好我們先這樣試試看然後剛剛有張雅玲委員跟范雲委員這一條我想要先保留一下因為我想要因為這條是團體的意見我想要先跟團體討論一下范雲委員"},{"start":7866.621,"end":7886.314,"text":"就关于未成年人那个部分是不是也可以请国科会主委表达一下另外刚刚赵伟你说后面那个音要放进去后面漏掉了大家现在要保留了我们也许就保留到时候一起加谢谢 谢谢范语委员国科会主委这边 谢谢"},{"start":7888.079,"end":7901.945,"text":"我想好幾位委員包含張委員非常關心兒少的這個各自的這個保護但是我其實也要強調一點就是如果我們兒少的"},{"start":7903.626,"end":7920.827,"text":"就是他相關的一些研究不進行的話反而對他們是不利的將來我們在這個訓練這個AI的模型的時候如果空了這一塊會有很嚴重的影響反而做出來壞事我們都不知道原因是什麼所以我們在研究的過程"},{"start":7921.368,"end":7935.187,"text":"是資料盡量齊全會比較好但是我們要管的是在應用的時候怎麼樣讓這個保護能夠做得更周全那這一部分其實很多技術性的問題也許可以"},{"start":7936.543,"end":7956.955,"text":"我們這個速發部在制定這個資料資料應用的相關作用法的時候可以再強調一點好謝謝主委那我想這一條因為大家還是有一些不同的看法那我也說明一下就是張艾玲委員這邊對兒少的關注我想所有的委員都是一致的"},{"start":7957.375,"end":7979.682,"text":"那我們在第四條的第四項就有很明確的所有人的個資都要最小化這是第三項啦 對不起 第三項是資料最小化原則不僅止套用於兒少 而是每一個人的資料都應該是最小化原則所以這一塊可能在跟相關的這個單位在溝通的時候也許我們可以一起參採進來"},{"start":7980.802,"end":7998.571,"text":"那如果這一條大家的意見比較不一致的話我們是不是我們稍微有做一點修改啦但是因為還是有委員有一些意見我們是不是就先保留好那我們第16條進行保留那我們進入第進入第17條那第17條是241頁謝謝"},{"start":8004.236,"end":8020.993,"text":"李耕哲委員謝謝謝謝昭偉第17條是有關於勞工權力保障等一下也請蘇衛部來針對相關法令制定之後對勞工權力保障的基本原則跟精神"},{"start":8023.035,"end":8037.212,"text":"針對勞工權力保障,我們不能只把焦點放在失業或技能的落差我們更應該要看到工作內容,即使它是被拆解或是被重構"},{"start":8039.395,"end":8060.44,"text":"OECD就指出在AI的浪潮之下有14%的工作可能會消失那更重要的是有三成的工作它會被AI重新設計就是重塑它的工作內容那這個代表政府"},{"start":8061.792,"end":8084.409,"text":"未來不是只有輔導失業者而且主要還要盤點各種行業當中這種中高風險的這種行業的任務那要推動技能重訓跟職能轉型這個要跟勞動部來好好地討論一下那其實各單位我認為應該要積極地盤整AI發展對勞工可能產生了這種影響跟衝擊"},{"start":8091.094,"end":8113.194,"text":"而且要針對工作可能被AI取代工作可能需要重組或再設計針對性的提出因應的做法確保勞工的權益在AI快速發展上得到保障我們對勞工權益保障的方式不限於運用人工智慧"},{"start":8114.255,"end":8136.303,"text":"针对人工智慧可能造成的就业冲击政府也应该要提供相关的协助跟就业的辅导那请刷布来说明一下针对第17条你认为有足够保障劳工的基本权益吗还是要再跟劳动部来相关的对话协调提出更具体的一个说明以上"},{"start":8137.128,"end":8159.841,"text":"好 謝謝李昆澤委員那我們剛剛好像有林瑾召委然後接下來柯志恩委員那請次長待會準備回應好 謝謝主席這條是我的版本的第12條我想大家應該都非常的關心就是人工智慧會不會造成勞動權益受損的問題那所以國家如何確保"},{"start":8160.481,"end":8180.911,"text":"就是在人工智慧的讓朝下勞動者的職業安全衛生 勞資關係職業職場的友善環境跟勞動的相關權益就是怎麼確保這些東西就是一件很重要的任務所以我的修正動議有增添第二項這個第二項就是寫到說政府"},{"start":8183.198,"end":8194.063,"text":"為因應人工智慧發展應提升國民之人工智慧協作能力避免技能落差並確保勞動者之職業安全衛生勞資關係職業友善環境及相關勞動權益"},{"start":8198.445,"end":8221.56,"text":"那我自己提出了動議有建議說政府及公立就業服務機構應定其蒐集整理分析並公佈其業務區域內受人工智慧影響的行業及職業分布薪資變動人力供需以及未來的展望等資料要依據他的調查結果來訂定工作機會的開發計畫"},{"start":8224.342,"end":8249.74,"text":"這樣的例事其實是要求政府要資料化掌握我國受人工智慧影響的勞工族群那定期要提供這個評估那最後的第三項我有做一些修正就是政府應就人工智慧利用所至的失業者依其工作能力予以輔導就業再加上或提供相關補助這個"},{"start":8252.122,"end":8258.296,"text":"在於說政府對於這個人工智慧發展對失業者照顧的強化以上"},{"start":8264.315,"end":8282.568,"text":"好有关于这个劳工权益的维护我想大家都非常的关切啊特别是你凭技能的落差对于失业者的这个不管是辅导或者就业啊所以我的建议我有提出我的修正动议我认为第一项应该增加的文文字应该是政府应该积极运用人工智慧确保劳动者的劳动权益"},{"start":8283.308,"end":8302.515,"text":"并且防范人工智慧系统对劳工者产生过度监控演算法解雇剥夺工作尊严等情形然后呢第二项我们有修正那原定的第三项改为第四项就是第三项我们把它增列因为我们看到这个条文欠缺具体执行的一个机制"},{"start":8303.175,"end":8325.735,"text":"所以我个人认为应该建议增加因推动人工智慧转型下之产业职能盘点制度建立再就业职训补助跟追踪的制度那我想劳动部应该会同教育部跟述发部推动人工智慧转型之下的这个产业职能的盘点并且能够就这个就业训练的补助与这个媒合的服务"},{"start":8326.556,"end":8339.414,"text":"最重要是你也要建立这个年度职能落差分析报告的一个制度这样才能够应付这个整个大浪潮之下我们一些工人劳工的一些权益谢谢柯之恩委员接下来请陈秀宝委员"},{"start":8342.841,"end":8362.046,"text":"在这一条的版本是写政府为因应人工智慧发展应避免技能落差并确保劳动者之职业安全卫生劳资关系职场友善环境及相关劳动权益政府应就人工智慧利用所致之失业者一起工作能力与辅导就业"},{"start":8362.546,"end":8374.551,"text":"那在這個部分我們因應人工智慧的發展應用可能提升產業的產線的效率搭載機器人投入產線生產也可能導致勞工失業這個部分我也呼應一下剛才我們崑禎委員這邊的發言"},{"start":8379.053,"end":8382.938,"text":"我們應該要從寬認定因人工智慧所致失業者並且提供輔導提升技能等相當課程那除了請勞動部這邊我們來盤點相關的行業職業可能因為人工智慧投入而導致他們失業的這些群體之外呢相關的一些部會的資源例如像教育部啊我們"},{"start":8399.737,"end":8417.158,"text":"在什麼時候應該要參與跟投入來以利事業者再度進入職場保障民眾的工作權我覺得說這個應該要有一個很擴大層面的一個了解因為我們如何來協助這些可能因為人工智慧投入來"},{"start":8418.86,"end":8418.88,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":8443.482,"end":8450.81,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員那我們請市長然後看勞動部因為也有同仁列席是不是勞動部有沒有什麼建議有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":8452.784,"end":8479.818,"text":"OK 謝謝各位委員那剛剛許多委員都有提到就是人工智慧導致的那個失業的風險的確是一個非常嚴重非常必須認真對待的一個事情所以我是贊同說就如同這個第二段文字應該是加入就是政府營救人工智慧利用所致之失業者以其工作能力與輔導就業這段文字我們是書發部這邊是贊同的"},{"start":8481.539,"end":8501.215,"text":"那另外也要回應一下就是李昆澤委員剛才有提到就是我們在關於勞工這部分我們應該納入職業安全衛生還有勞資關係職場友善環境以及勞動權益等文字確保說我們在保障勞工權益的時候也兼顧到這幾項以上謝謝勞動部這邊有沒有檢要"},{"start":8510.839,"end":8512.18,"text":"我们劳动部这边有没有简要说明林专委"},{"start":8543.027,"end":8568.293,"text":"林專委好主席各位那個勞工部這邊的話就是基本上就是陳如剛我們速發部次長先提到基本上就是已經我們建議說就是要考慮到說競爭落差問題包括勞工群的保障這邊他當然也期望說把週延化就是把治安位保持關係這些勞工群都一併拉進來之外那剛針對針對輔導就我們覺得也很重要"},{"start":8572.754,"end":8601.726,"text":"其實剛剛幾位委員關切到說一些議題有的擔心說執行面會不會比較強但這邊兩部份 勞動部其實針對說因為演算法導致的解決問題基本上勞動部現在都有機制在做處理那當然一鍋肉監控這個問題我們有關注但是一牽涉到執行面的話有沒有說不夠明確的問題那我們是說這些原則勞動部都會去處理只是說我們另外就訓練這一塊的話才能智能盤點這一塊也都很重要因為目前出發部的確有針對說AI的人才基礎有建立規範"},{"start":8603.146,"end":8625.074,"text":"那我是建議說這個文字是不要特別寫勞動部因為現在AI的議題會跨部會那像產狀條例也清楚到說勞動部跟其他部會都在做職能基準所以是不是如果一定要提這些職能基準的這些等等是不是用政府這個字就好不要特別寫勞動部因為內部有些分工考量比如說政府就是用這個救福等等之類我們一起來做努力 謝謝"},{"start":8626.431,"end":8633.514,"text":"不好意思就是你們分工常常不太明確所以我們才會希望把條文裡面把它放進去那因為我還沒講這一條這條其實我的版本我跟幾位委員版本比較起來我覺得移情委員那個就是要求那個報告然後柯志森委員要求跨部會跟那個注意監控的部分還有秀報委員也強調就要不要進來嘛"},{"start":8648.459,"end":8672.488,"text":"那就是因為勞動部不想進來所以我們就要你們進來因為我們立委常在開協調會那這樣子就應該寫在法條中因為這件事情真的需要跨部會合作啦所以我也贊同剛剛朝偉覺得這條有點繁複那是不是能夠保留讓他把大家這幾個很重要的精神因為AI時代這個勞動者的權益怎麼保障不會只有職業訓練有好幾個面向謝謝范議委員我們要再次"},{"start":8678.145,"end":8693.301,"text":"對行政院還有速發部再次嚴厲的表達譴責之意啊勞工是所有人心裡最軟的一塊肉啊人工智慧最有可能衝擊到就是就業的問題"},{"start":8695.702,"end":8713.463,"text":"那到现在2025年8月份了台湾还没有一个AI基本法连草案都还没有送进来然后让我们所有的委员在这边每一个人的条文都非常棒啊我刚刚特别找啊离基委员讲的协作很好啊有提到劳动部要负责很好啊"},{"start":8714.344,"end":8718.186,"text":"我們沒有一條草案進來我覺得真的是希望我們的行政院要負起責任這個AI內閣是不是明天招牌要拆掉所以我想我們這一條我們就一一保留好不好"},{"start":8730.799,"end":8756.651,"text":"保留好謝謝那我們在保留的同時我們還是要說明我們這條保留的原因是因為勞工跟勞動非常重要而我們的中華民國政府到目前為止沒有提出任何一條人工智慧保護勞工的草案送到立法院來那我們在此保留謝謝那我們接下來進到第249頁"},{"start":8760.336,"end":8762.997,"text":"第18條那我們第17條是保留啊好第18條249頁哈有沒有委員有建議或說明好吳宗憲委員召委謝謝"},{"start":8786.961,"end":8801.929,"text":"有關18條的部分我是希望說能夠增訂一個第三項因為我自己版本22條的部分我希望說政府能夠鼓勵多元參與協助產業訂定"},{"start":8804.87,"end":8820.515,"text":"就是比較符合產業現況還有執行需求的執行規範因為我主要考量的是一些中小企業因為我們看了一下在2024年的那個中小企業的白皮書我們的中小企業家數在2023年已經突破了167萬4千家"},{"start":8823.576,"end":8838.621,"text":"然後比前一年呢163萬3千加多了2.5%也就是說我們是佔整體企業的98%以上但是因為中小企業它本身它有沒有這個能力去訂定這次我們希望說政府要能夠進來協助所以"},{"start":8840.522,"end":8858.038,"text":"我是這邊一個建議啦就是我們增訂一個第三項第三項就是政府應協助相關產業自行訂定產業指引及行為規範就我們課以政府一個這個義務能夠協助中小企業去做這個指引還有那個行為規範的訂定啦這是我的補充 謝謝"},{"start":8862.222,"end":8881.126,"text":"好謝謝吳宗憲召委那如果有文字我覺得也可以我們提出來說不定我們今天這個就可以把它納入那我再我再念一下好那請你打一下好不好好謝謝政府應協助相關產業自行訂定產業指引及行為規範及行為規範"},{"start":8892.794,"end":8899.877,"text":"對 我們科與政府這個義務好 謝謝好 謝謝吳宗憲召委那有沒有其他委員有有建議好 張雅琳委員 郭玉琴委員"},{"start":8910.18,"end":8925.021,"text":"到時候再見好 劉書斌委員那這部分我的文字應該是說政府要建立一套AI的風險分級制度像是哪些AI的應用比較安全哪些是高風險的這部分應該要參考國際的做法來主導讓台灣的AI政策能和國際接軌"},{"start":8926.263,"end":8948.012,"text":"那這個在根據各部會在根據這套分級架構呢針對自己負責的領域呢在制定更細的管理辦法那特別是說如果這個AI應用會使用到未成年的部分呢像是學生的學習系統或社群的互動平台那就必須進一步的設計預防限制甚至禁止的措施所以我這一部分呢其實是在第二項後面有增加了"},{"start":8948.892,"end":8963.526,"text":"原本是各目的失业主管机关得依前项分级框架定定其主管业务之风险分级规范我新增了并得就涉及未成年人之高风险应用制定预防限制或禁止措施好谢谢张爱玲委员我们接下来请郭玉琴委员然后刘苏冰委员"},{"start":8972.779,"end":8999.33,"text":"好這一條我們也有提那個修正動議喔那也是針對這個未成年人喔那我增訂的部分是這個政府應針對未成年人推動人工智慧相關產品與服務之使用年齡認證機制以落實風險分級強化使用人工智慧產品時之保護措施確保未成年人身心安全喔這個部分我們是把它增訂在這個部分"},{"start":9000.43,"end":9015.723,"text":"我想就是比較重視在兒少或者是未成年人的部分好 以上好 謝謝郭玉琴委員那我們范雲委員然後 對不起 劉淑冰委員然後范雲委員 然後徐一貞委員"},{"start":9016.738,"end":9022.826,"text":"好 在這個第18條當中民眾黨的一個意見是有重視到剛才大家都有講到說風險的一個框架但是我們重視更重要的是風險必須要有評估的一個機制"},{"start":9031.798,"end":9050.013,"text":"所以那個風險的評估機制呢是必須把它放進去的那另外呢我們本黨就是針對這些部分呢其實有關於在風險這邊我們希望說不是只有官方的代表希望說有成立的一個委員會有主管機關召集人工智慧官方剛才之前有存過的一些委員會呢來做一個風險評估的一個諮詢會議啦那這個諮詢會議的當中呢就可以把這些部分包括產業代表放進去的時候呢就可以比較對於這個"},{"start":9060.602,"end":9089.012,"text":"評估的部分能夠呈現出來較多元而且是適合業界的這樣子一個意見能夠呈現出來好謝謝劉淑貴委員 范瑀委員然後徐益臻委員 謝謝關於風險這部分因為葛如軍委員等是一條十八條嘛那我跟好幾位委員我們其實都更細欸十十一 像我的是在第十條 第十一條 第十二條我看林益菊委員等的也是喔"},{"start":9089.372,"end":9110.541,"text":"那我是覺得因為風險管控其實就是一個目前最大的問題那我自己是認為這個應該要用更嚴謹的態度就是我們知道的不管是歐盟等都是更嚴謹的所以這個級別然後加上怎麼樣的方式去識別等等"},{"start":9111.281,"end":9128.21,"text":"那这部分因为我有三条所以我是建议这个保留因为我觉得18条只用一个简要的好像太简化一点那因为风险分类这是一个蛮最重要我认为很重要的这个治理那这部分我就不一一讲了谢谢"},{"start":9134.403,"end":9151.353,"text":"有關第18條是有關風險分級框架的一個條文設計當然它的核心精神就是在全球AI治理還沒有形成固定的模式之際讓台灣能夠提前跟國際接軌建立科學分級還有可調適的建立體系避免"},{"start":9152.693,"end":9170.836,"text":"沒有秩序的創新或監管真空造成對人民的權利社會秩序跟國家安全的潛在的風險當然我們知道人工智慧的應用範圍非常的廣可以說每個領域面對的風險的形態也截然不同有的關乎資訊的隱私有的操縱市場的穩定或輿論的操控所以面對這麼多龐雜多元的一個AI的應用場景"},{"start":9179.478,"end":9202.498,"text":"政府沒有辦法依風險程度做出分級管理只用一體試用的方式這樣不是過度的前置創新就是放任風險的蔓延那因此我要求這個主管機關應該主導建立國家級的風險分級制度並與國際接軌確保我們的制度能被世界的接受與信任當然未來無論是這個跨境的數據"},{"start":9203.539,"end":9224.097,"text":"或者技術出口或人才交流台灣都能夠站在同樣的治理語言跟法規的準則上進行對話那當然同時我們也知道各部位面對AI應用的情境也不同所以也沒有單一的一個標準可以一體適用因此本條文也明文授權各目的主管機關能夠依據主框架設計自己的風險分類"},{"start":9225.558,"end":9248.824,"text":"跟管理办法例如卫福部可以针对AI诊断工具制定安全跟透明的要求交通部可以对自驾车感知与决策系统定力风险分类那金管会也可以对AI理财跟性品的模型设下监管的门槛那这种的设计就有同意的原则但保有弹性才是真正符合治理逻辑的制度安排谢谢"},{"start":9249.184,"end":9256.287,"text":"好 謝謝徐宇珍委員我想在這邊簡要的回覆有非常多委員都提出非常好的建議我們的統合版這裡也把分級改成分類但是當然各種的討論也都有同時剛剛有委員有提到現在歐盟做風險等等有非常多條等等"},{"start":9269.833,"end":9284.107,"text":"我在這裡也要跟各位分享現在從六月份日本通過的是AI促進法是以競爭力為優先七月份美國通過的AI action plan也是以競爭為優先"},{"start":9285.848,"end":9306.806,"text":"到七月之後跟著五天美國發布了之後的五天呢中國大陸也推動了這個所謂的人工智慧的全球治理那當然他們就是以管控為主啦那同時呢我們還是要回過頭來歐盟的法規呢在八月理論上要上路但是他們也對於過去的保護框架有所疑慮"},{"start":9307.947,"end":9326.484,"text":"可能在各國之間也會有不一樣的一個狀態出現所以我想這一條我們是不是就以保留好不好我們第18條我們就保留因為這個風險的部分我們理解在如何在開放促進的同時我們也做到風險的保護"},{"start":9328.386,"end":9348.031,"text":"但是剛剛所提到的兒少在第六條有提到那前面的條我們待會都還要回去所以我們這個前面大家就會發現有非常多的保護的條款在前面那我們到第十九條我個人的建議是這樣因為剛剛已經有提到非常多風險分類風險分級還有各種的檢測還有條件還有部會等等"},{"start":9354.252,"end":9369.625,"text":"我們第十九條其實跟第十八條算是一個延伸關係啊那既然第十八條我們予以保留了我想這個我們第十九條我們就保留吧就等於是風險的部分其實我們前面待會還會再回去review我想大家也會對後續的這個風險條文會比較有掌握好不好那我們是不是張雅玲委員謝謝"},{"start":9376.391,"end":9405.484,"text":"因為我在這一條裡面看到大家有人講分級有人講分類那速發部或是國會會可以說明一下你們自己覺得怎樣子的方式是比較好嗎好那是不是請市長OK關於分級與分類這主要是來源是在於說美國跟歐盟對於AI控管的想法非常不一樣那我們都知道歐盟幾年前就推出了那個AI基本AI"},{"start":9408.266,"end":9427.322,"text":"他們在歐盟的這個法案裡面他是對於風險有非常明確的分級但是後來發現說其實在實際上的使用上發生了會有一些疑慮第一個是說尤其是以美國那邊為首他們認為說過多的法律規範會阻礙創新過多法律規範會阻礙創新那再來就是說因為"},{"start":9432.386,"end":9451.786,"text":"歐盟當初在訂他們的那個EU AI Act的時候其實還沒有LALM、Chad GPD還沒訂出來雖然他們通過是在Chad GPD出來之後但是他們在擬這個法案的時候並沒有考慮到那個LALM造成的那個衝擊所以那個美國那邊呢他們的看法一直認為說是要做那個風險的"},{"start":9454.707,"end":9469.427,"text":"分类框架就是政府指出一个分类框架并不做明确的限制像欧盟他有明确的定出说有哪些类型的AI是属于不可接受也就是禁止的包含那个潜意识监控"},{"start":9470.127,"end":9490.658,"text":"包含利用臉部辨識來判斷一個人的種族包含用AI進行社會信用等等 它是明確禁止的那後來也如同剛剛葛委員剛剛有講到就是在日本還有韓國還有新加坡後來的立法也都是偏向於美國式的 就是做分類而不做分級"},{"start":9492.158,"end":9505.029,"text":"這個是整個大的概念我們現在速發部在進行的方式我們希望的是說我們在AI基本法裡面是做比較一般性的宣示與規範然後速發部這邊會做風險分類的框架然後實際上"},{"start":9512.876,"end":9523.726,"text":"在AI的應用上面的那個風險的那個實際的立法作用法也就如同剛剛徐宇珍委員所講的那個就是我們速發部現在的想法就是說譬如說關於自動駕駛的風險應該由誰規範這個應該是由交通部去定就是說萬一這個自動駕駛的車輛出現那個車禍的時候到底是車廠要負責任還是駕駛人要負責任那同樣衛福部在用"},{"start":9539.859,"end":9564.927,"text":"這個AI輔助醫療的時候他怎樣去設定就是說怎樣哪些是禁止哪些是可以允許的同樣的到時候如果發現發生糾紛的時候到底是醫生要負責還是由這個AI廠商負責那同樣金管會等等其他的也都是部會也都是各自去做那個實際作用法的立法這是我們目前那個速發部的規劃以上報告謝謝好"},{"start":9567.108,"end":9572.973,"text":"謝謝林靜次長我想我們這一條這個第19條他這個條是有點不一樣但是我想也就是做風險的分類還有相關那我想在這邊我們這一條我們就先保留但是我還是要在場還是要再次的對行政院"},{"start":9589.227,"end":9609.536,"text":"還有速發部提出提醒跟譴責因為剛才次長的說明非常完整啊顯見速發部以及次長雖然部長今天沒有來我們相信也對於這些問題都做過很深入的研究了那究竟什麼原因我們的草案到現在沒有辦法送進立法院外界甚至有傳言說有的政黨有檔案魔人"},{"start":9612.697,"end":9630.714,"text":"那今天大家都很和平的在這裡討論條文啊顯然可能不存在黨案謀人黨啊 黨駐的黨啊在立法院那是不是有黨案謀人在其他的地方我們是真的不希望看到所以再拜託我想我們這一條就先保留但是風險我們大家都希望討論的也謝謝次長剛剛發表就確實啊這個國際的風向"},{"start":9634.537,"end":9646.483,"text":"希望能夠以創新為主風險還是要顧但是創新為主這個也謝謝次長提出那我們進入這個第20條第20條就是原本的19條在第313頁那這一條我想就是"},{"start":9654.951,"end":9676.09,"text":"政府應於本法施行後等等等等這是一個比較基本的條文那有沒有委員有說明意見好 謝謝吳宗憲召委保留了 我們剛剛保留了"},{"start":9677.677,"end":9690.627,"text":"對對保留了對好就是我們的就我們今天病到19條啦修正動醫的19條啦病到我們的修正動醫的19條但是因為這都是風險的這都是風險的"},{"start":9694.823,"end":9720.195,"text":"對對對 所以因為剛剛的第18條保留了因為我們再次譴責我們的行政單位沒有草案送出來現在2025年的8月4號沒有草案送出來所以導致我們的調製真的非常的辛苦所有的委員 不分黨派我想我們都非常希望我們的政府趕快出一個草案出來那請吳宗憲召委 謝謝謝謝 就是第20條的部分就是"},{"start":9721.135,"end":9738.617,"text":"不是不是 20條耶我們現在修訂的 政府應於本法施行後對 我們現在調製因為有增訂20跟21 所以變成中信委員你想要提的應該是所謂的最後一條 就是20"},{"start":9740.816,"end":9748.882,"text":"現在討論是倒數第二條啦現在討論就是這一條313頁因為你這一條是講說漁本法施行後嘛那這個我覺得很不錯但是你們看一下那個海洋基本法第16條其實它對於這個部分它是有一個時間的規定的海洋基本法16條它其實它對於這個法令它不會說讓你"},{"start":9770.559,"end":9790.818,"text":"讓你就是漫無目的什麼時候要做什麼都沒有那他16條還有提到各政府機關應於本法施行後兩年內那所以說我覺得既然海洋基本法有這個規範那我們的人工智慧基本法是不是我們第20條也可以加一個時間限制那請各位看一下大本的315頁315頁我原本提的第23條的草案"},{"start":9796.903,"end":9823.702,"text":"第二三條草案就是在315頁政府應依本法規定這段開始我是想說因為跟我們20條的第一項其實內容類似那可不可以用我這個草案的那個23條第一項的那個內容我們把它加一個時間在本法實行後三年內麻煩看一下315頁"},{"start":9827.494,"end":9851.181,"text":"315頁我的23條第一項的那個文字可不可以20我們的現在你這個螢幕上顯示出來的20條的第一項可不可以換成我這個草案的第一項然後有一個實現的規定因為這個在其他基本法有這樣但是我們的基本法卻沒有那變成說他愛怎麼樣三五年後我不知道那是不是我們一個規範"},{"start":9853.478,"end":9868.927,"text":"謝謝吳宗憲召委這個我們文字上要不要先修正一下好不好幫忙修正一下然後我們試試看那我現在一邊念就是從就等於是第一項的部分改成吳宗憲委員的政府應依本法規定是嗎檢討所主管之法規及行政措施分號"},{"start":9884.161,"end":9909.677,"text":"分號有妨礙人工智慧政策推動頓號不符合本法規定不符合不符合本法規定本法規定或無法歸可知適用者逗點這個各位可以看315頁大本的"},{"start":9911.991,"end":9937.478,"text":"可適用者 逗點 因自本法施行後三年內 逗點完成法令之制 制服的制然後左括號 右括號 定定定的 定定的定然後左括 然後定定的定 言字旁"},{"start":9939.281,"end":9948.929,"text":"然後右掛號 定頓號 修正或廢止 逗號修正或廢止 逗號 僅行政措施之改進"},{"start":9966.461,"end":9993.571,"text":"我補充說明一下喔就是就是說沒關係 這個我們先寫啦反正就會保留啦我補充說明一下為什麼要這樣是因為就像剛剛主席說要譴責行政機關一直都沒有任何動作那再加上我們之前在審查法條的時候我們在面對行政機關它常常都是再研議然後就沒有就沒有然後了所以我認為說我們有一些要求是要訂一個期限不能開放式的讓它愛做不做都可以這樣"},{"start":9993.991,"end":10001.816,"text":"那剛剛您是提兩年現在這裡是三年三年我剛說的是海洋基本法兩年海洋基本法是兩年那我想說我們就定一個三年因為還是要一個我們給它更寬好那沒關係這個我們只是在這邊給大家參考因為這一條看起來大家好像也還覺得要討論我們是不是就先保留了好不好我們先保留了謝謝吳宗憲 昭偉那我們是不是這一條"},{"start":10022.816,"end":10039.104,"text":"就保留了 好 我們就保留好 那我們第21條就是我們的修正版的第21條是本法自公佈之日起施行那這也是標準條文那這一條有要對 翻譯委員"},{"start":10041.075,"end":10068.693,"text":"我剛剛看一下我們那個第326條的資料其實也蠻多委員包含民眾黨版 邱若驊版 張家俊版還有我跟我們很多委員的版本是說由行政院定之那為什麼是這樣子因為其實各自委員會建的主管機關都還沒成立嘛所以這邊是不是有點彈性而且就是11個委員的版本是由行政院定之只有8個委員版本是那個"},{"start":10069.955,"end":10071.518,"text":"公佈之日起好嗎好謝謝范雲委員那第21條呢有沒有其他委員有意見好 牛許廷委員"},{"start":10085.543,"end":10109.665,"text":"我看了一下召委的修正動議大家都簽名了嘛國民黨黨內基本上都簽名了所以應該是公佈日施行那當然確實會有各自委員會還沒有成立的問題但我覺得不能因小施大基本法本來就是規範原則性的綱領嘛那你政府本來就要通過之後趕快來制定相關的一些配套措施所以我想公佈日施行應該是沒有關係啦我是比較傾向是公佈日來做施行以上 謝謝"},{"start":10110.834,"end":10126.357,"text":"好在這裡這一條我也是支持這個我們的修正版本本法自公佈之日起施行我要再表達一次這個對於行政單位我們是希望鼓勵但是對於"},{"start":10127.765,"end":10151.956,"text":"我們有不少委員提出版本以後又撤回那到了現在已經2025年的8月4號了我們在施行日的這一條竟然還沒辦法設立出去我真的非常擔憂真的會變成國際笑話所以我的建議是不是我們這一條"},{"start":10153.317,"end":10169.467,"text":"可以通過這個徐宇貞委員謝謝謝謝昭偉請問一下昭偉我們現在討論的是您的第還有我的第20條就我們修正版本的第21條然後修正的版本是第21條"},{"start":10171.696,"end":10186.787,"text":"對對對所以說你現在就是第21條不好意思對我們再次嚴厲的譴責我們的這個行政單位沒有送任何草案進來好羅廷偉委員謝謝好支持昭偉這個部分希望今天能夠用這個版本通過好劉淑冰委員"},{"start":10192.213,"end":10217.771,"text":"我們要特別澄清一下因為剛才范雲委員有提到說我們民眾黨的這個黨團的提案是這邊那這個部分因為當初是以在吳欣盈委員她在上一屆的這個內容那這部分的話目前我們本黨的話是希望說在 AIG 本法的部分已經在落後在國際而且雖然是以創新為主的情況之下這邊應該是要改成是應該就公佈之後就要生效這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝好 市長 謝謝"},{"start":10222.386,"end":10245.987,"text":"因為這件事情還是牽涉到各自委員會的成立的狀況所以速發部這邊還是希望能保留 謝謝雖然吳宗憲委員臨時不在但是我還是要講速發部你們的草案到現在還沒有送出來現在又要有一個理由連我們最後如果公佈的時候"},{"start":10247.557,"end":10268.841,"text":"都沒有辦法依公告日期施行那台灣根本就在AI持續沒有法治啦剛剛大家的風險討論勞工保護 兒少保護全部就因為一個個資保護委員會我們讓行政院來決定什麼時候施行嗎所以我是真的希望所有的我們是不是這一條我們可以通過啊是不是 好"},{"start":10272.622,"end":10295.44,"text":"好 同意 那如果是這樣的話我們想我們這一條就予以通過那我們希望我們的行政單位爭取時間我們希望我們的行政單位爭取時間不應該用任何理由來拖延應該要進行的行政責任我們再一次分享給各位2018年賴清德總統擔任行政院長的時候說台灣AI行動計畫"},{"start":10298.682,"end":10324.467,"text":"2019年 2018年行動計畫2019年就有草案出來了人工智慧基本法草案現在已經2025年了所以我們希望這一條可以通過好 那我們是不是這一條沒有啦 保留啦最後一條呢 大家意見不同嗎我真的要再次表達如果我們連法案施行都沒有辦法在法案通過以後來施行的話我們這一部法"},{"start":10327.146,"end":10354.554,"text":"兒少的保護 個資的保護勞工的保護我們剛剛到底在討論什麼對啊 可是要法令完善嘛法令完善行政單位到現在草案都還沒有辦法送進來啊對啊 所以我的意思是說因為其實一開始很多委員也是有提說是本法制行政院來訂制嘛對啊 所以我的意思是說那其實也不是說只有民進黨的委員版本是這樣"},{"start":10358.675,"end":10375.003,"text":"大家意見不同反正我們今天也那麼和諧是不是最後一條我們也就保留好不好其實我想最後一條相對單純相對單純就是公佈日期實行我覺得這應該也是符合現在的一個世界的一個趨勢李沛翔委員"},{"start":10376.75,"end":10392.886,"text":"我認為這個案子在最後一條的話如果是因為這個知維末節然後阻擋了整個法案的話我會覺得很可惜所以我會支持國人居民召委的想法這應該是婚佈之日自己實行而且時間不等人當全世界那麼快速的變動的時候其實這樣對我們非常不利"},{"start":10394.071,"end":10413.968,"text":"謝謝林培祥委員 外美林委員 然後黃建豪委員 謝謝好 我也簡單的表達就是支持召委的就是本法制公佈之日起實行謝謝外美林委員 黃建豪委員 謝謝我有修正動力啦所以我也當然支持本法制公佈之日起實行如果又要等行政院定制這行政院定制不知道要拖到民國幾年"},{"start":10415.089,"end":10431.656,"text":"所以我想大家如果前面的法條應該保留這麼多條那如果討論完到時候保留完討論完有共識送出那它就可以自公佈施行了嘛就不用再等另外再拍一次間大家再協調的時候定制了所以我認為就是按照本法自公佈執行以上"},{"start":10432.116,"end":10451.626,"text":"好 那我想我們現在這份那個葛如君委員等人之修正動議裡面包括剛剛有提到張家俊委員也有簽這份新的修正動議我們的第21條是本法自公布日期施行那我們就照葛如君委員等修正動議通過"},{"start":10455.115,"end":10469.701,"text":"張偉 張偉 漫榮書發佈再發表一下意見好不好就是對於所謂的公佈域施行或者行政院定之可以講 但是我要再次說明行政院到目前為止沒有任何一個草案送進來"},{"start":10471.022,"end":10496.973,"text":"速發部到目前為止沒有任何一個草案送到立法院我想我們立法院每一位立法委員我們要堅持的是人民的權益是以及人民的保護好請市長謝謝我們要力求這個立法的完善啊好那說明一下當然我們速發部這邊還是希望能保留那當然這件事情還是要尊重各位委員的意見謝謝好"},{"start":10502.182,"end":10510.289,"text":"就是我們來看原本的版本除了邱若驊 張嘉芬不在場之外羅廷偉版本也是寫遊行都簽修正動議了還有民眾黨等等那大家是都簽修正動議了剛才民眾黨也表達支持羅廷偉委員請說 謝謝"},{"start":10521.439,"end":10550.02,"text":"剛剛講那個個資會如果沒有通過成立的話那我們在那邊硬公佈施行到底是什麼意思主管機關這部分都還沒有確定啊好謝謝范雲委員劉柯天鵝委員謝謝范雲委員有點名到我那幫范雲委員更新一下我有簽修正動議所以我是支持葛如君委員那對於速發部以及行政部門現在這樣子的一個態度呢我是非常沒有信心所以我覺得以現在的版本修正動議我是最佳的所以我支持"},{"start":10551.527,"end":10571.498,"text":"好 謝謝羅庭委員 外媒林委員 謝謝謝謝昭偉 我兩點第一個 本來我們就是在做討論嘛那這個審查討論 那我們也簽了修正動議本來就是可以調整跟改變的我想這是每一位委員在這裡審查的時候應該有基本知識那第二個就是說 次長 速發部的次長其實剛剛昭偉 這個 次長"},{"start":10577.662,"end":10597.819,"text":"這個剛剛張偉就是請您回答其實是要回答說您怎麼看到底是要從公佈之日起施行還是有別的想法但看起來你沒有說半個原因跟你的想法跟你所想法的根據你只有說我就是只是這樣的贊成我覺得稍嫌草率那是不是能夠你更說明清楚一點好不好"},{"start":10598.419,"end":10611.975,"text":"周委市長我們先讓市長說明好不好這個范雲委員的意見我們都非常清楚啦不是不是我是要提議休息五分鐘大家討論一下到底這條AI沒辦法休息了啦不要再因為我們教文委員過去有不同的意見我們都會尊重嘛那為什麼這條要強硬這樣"},{"start":10617.12,"end":10631.912,"text":"對不起 這個請那個范議員也尊重我這邊好不好因為我希望讓次長能夠說明白因為剛才其實他並沒有回答問題的核心輕率的帶過我們不能理解啊所以我們還是請次長做說明 謝謝好 次長麻煩我想 我已經"},{"start":10641.007,"end":10647.253,"text":"我已經表達我們書發部的看法那抱歉因為今天我們部長不在然後我在這邊就是說"},{"start":10652.799,"end":10675.433,"text":"對 部長去參加APEC那個部長會議那這個會議是五年才辦一次那因為上次遇到疫情已經有十年沒辦了所以今天部長沒有來那這些事情就是我已經作為次長我已經表達我的看法但是我在沒有得到充分授權的狀況下我只能講到這裡所以次長你今天是沒有充分授權就來開我們的會是這樣嗎"},{"start":10677.634,"end":10694.853,"text":"不是完全没有授权那到底授权到什么程度我不太理解你讲的意思对不对部长请假我们已经觉得说这个请假好有这么重要的会议那也没关系但你来到这个地方你却没有被充分授权那到底授权到什么程度我们应该跟你讨论到什么样的程度呢我们"},{"start":10698.804,"end":10711.803,"text":"市長請回應 謝謝那我再次表達我們部的立場我們部的立場就希望這一條保留或者是原先以行政院公布的這個版本這是我們部的立場 謝謝主席"},{"start":10713.291,"end":10740.828,"text":"另外一位委員 謝謝好 謝謝肅發部表達他們的立場那我也要表達我們自己的立場我們的立場就是希望這一個應該要通過因為我們已經等不及了我們尊重部長去參加APEC很重要但是現在的這一個AI基本法也很重要那我們所以在這邊堅持到底那我們從六月一直等 等不到這不是完完全全沒有等待沒有尊重那我們希望事不宜遲是不是請"},{"start":10742.289,"end":10748.794,"text":"趙偉趕緊處理好 謝謝我想主席在這邊才是就是第21條我們依照葛如君委員等人提案人等提案人修正動議通過主席這個我是覺得我們教文委員會過去從來不會這樣強硬才是因為明顯有不同的意見那我可不可以提議休息五分鐘大家討論一下一分鐘之後如果還是這樣的意見我們就尊重趙偉嘛"},{"start":10770.729,"end":10784.345,"text":"范議員 請尊重召委過去四年民進黨是多數的時候我們也沒有這樣子不保留就才是的好不好我們就尊重大家好好討論就是盡量以共識出去范議員"},{"start":10786.487,"end":10806.44,"text":"過去可能也不會有這樣子一個法案七年了一個草案提不出來上一次6月2018年賴清德行政院院長推出AI行動計畫市長明明是有準備嘛他每條都有他的意見啊他們沒有提出來啊他們沒有提出他們的草案啊"},{"start":10806.88,"end":10808.802,"text":"我們待會還要回去討論名稱各位知道為什麼嗎因為六月份我們在做審議的時候"},{"start":10826.94,"end":10844.631,"text":"有某一些委員用各種的理由來推遲我們相關議案的審議連名稱都要討論連章節第一章都要討論到現在我們還沒有辦法往前推進所以所以我們想要對不起好我提醒謝謝我提醒一下"},{"start":10851.115,"end":10879.388,"text":"因為我們待會還要回去討論名稱我們還有第一條到第十一條的保留范瑀委員是不是尊重一下召委讓他講完好不好召委不尊重我們教文委員過去好好討論的傳統嗎你可不可以問一下克森委員過去教文委員會不會這樣子嗎好嗎麻煩尊重召委好謝謝那我想我們第二十一條我們主席才是就是趙葛如君委員等提案人修正動議通過"},{"start":10882.492,"end":10905.062,"text":"好 那我們現在主席有一個問題是因為目前已經討論到主席版本的這一個到21條了看起來好像結束不過我們還要回過頭去我們會回過頭去我現在只想說我希望說因為我們本黨還有從33條到39條這邊呢有 那我們希望說也保留因為到時候可能有協商等等的可以再進去"},{"start":10906.343,"end":10909.426,"text":"沒有 我們先回去討論 因為 對對對對好 那雖然我也很想休息但是我想我們AI真的等不了我們啦那產業跟這個學界還有全世界都在關注台灣一直在賣AI的設備"},{"start":10925.018,"end":10949.987,"text":"晶片但是我們台灣完全沒有任何一個AI的法治框架所以我們是不是范議員簡要發言然後我們就回到名稱我對周偉不尊重教文委員過去好好討論就是明明知道有不同的意見卻不願意保留就裁決強硬通過這件事情表達抗議那這是我個人的聲明好 謝謝范議員那我們接下來我們回到我們在先前有"},{"start":10954.649,"end":10978.731,"text":"章節我們有名稱還有第一到十一條進行保留第十三條保留然後我們今天有討論第十三條保留十六條保留十七條保留依據我現在念的條次呢是依據我們的國務軍委員等提案人的修正動議的條次第十八條保留第十九條保留跟第二十條保留以及各章名謝謝"},{"start":10981.021,"end":11002.496,"text":"那還有民眾黨黨團的第33到39那我們現在先回去討論我們的名稱好那我們就回來我們謝謝教文委員會有相關的整理那我們先做這個法案名稱"},{"start":11003.837,"end":11015.405,"text":"那法案名稱我們在六月份的討論是保留的那有沒有其他委員還有另外要提出的建議如果沒有我想我們就人工智慧基本法好那我們就人工智慧基本法我們就照"},{"start":11030.034,"end":11055.954,"text":"就照修正通過我們這個法法案的名稱就是人工智慧基本法那再來第一章的章名第一章章名第46頁那有賴世保委員有提一個總則那民眾黨黨團有提一個總則那因為賴世保委員也有簽我們這份修正動議啦所以"},{"start":11059.681,"end":11082.419,"text":"看民眾黨這邊有沒有特別意見或者我們就保留好那如果民眾黨沒有特別意見我們也許就照修正通過我們不必我們就不處理我們就不理採納好謝謝那我們接下來進入第一條第一條的話我們是"},{"start":11085.759,"end":11089.524,"text":"没有呀 之前不是都保留吗之前不是都保留吗"},{"start":11091.601,"end":11113.787,"text":"因為我想這個協商也是很需要效率的我們希望不管是在行政院還是立法院都不會有檔案磨人協商磨人所以我想剛剛我們的這個本來的保留的賴思寶委員已經簽修正動議了那我們看我們再回到這個"},{"start":11118.288,"end":11142.141,"text":"所以我們就進入第一條好不好我們剛剛第一張張明已經是不予採納了好我們現在是在第一條喔對 謝謝張艾玲委員第46頁我想大家每一個委員對於上次其實都會有不同的意見有不同的版本嘛所以我覺得盡量不要用檔案魔人這個字來去稱呼因為我覺得這樣子對於大家來好好討論這不是一個有幫助的方式"},{"start":11142.441,"end":11161.67,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員我要講一下如果有檔案磨刃的話上次我們那個不議一旨的話是怎麼樣討論的我們是不是尊重在場不同的意見請周偉你不要失意這不是上一屆的事是這一屆的事好 謝謝范瑀委員那我們現在在第一條進行討論"},{"start":11163.751,"end":11188.204,"text":"不好意思 昭薇我們想了解一下你現在是要把保留的部分在這個委員會今天再一次我們先過一次如果還是要保留我們還是可以保留可是問題是我還是要提出來因為我們今天被告知是從第13條開始所以1到12條我們要保留部分我們勢必也還要再回去做一些review再回去了"},{"start":11188.464,"end":11213.393,"text":"我觉得保留通常以过去的方法你当你做保留我想祖密在这边做保留就是到委员会出委员会之后的时候那才是叫保留的定义不是在这个地方我还是先提示一下过去我们的做法招委还是可以召集协商就不一定要到院的协商谢谢非常多位委员还有先进提出的想法建议我想"},{"start":11215.214,"end":11233.786,"text":"我們剛剛有提到名稱跟這個我再念一次所以我們上一次有1到名稱以及1到11條我們上一次的會議是保留的然後包含今天討論的第13 16 17 18 19 20那以及各張名那如果委員沒有意見還有台灣民眾黨的第33條到第39條"},{"start":11244.693,"end":11273.493,"text":"那如果我也沒有意見的話我們過去保留的包含第一到第十一條還有名稱還有各張名我們就保留那我們送院會處理就是協商協商然後對對對送協商對好送協商好那這樣子大家有沒有意見好好那我們有三個謝謝好謝謝各位委員那我們三個附帶決議"},{"start":11278.988,"end":11295.444,"text":"好 那我們螢幕上展示出三份附帶決議那從附帶決議我相信大家也都可以看得出來部分黨派所有委員都非常積極的希望人工智慧基本法可以通過那這個第一份附帶決議是由"},{"start":11313.197,"end":11331.864,"text":"那這個附帶決議由柯志恩委員提出有謝榮介委員、葛如軍委員、劉淑冰委員、林沛翔委員都提案那部會沒有意見那我們附帶決議通過那另外呢也有張雅琳委員還有這個應該是我們這邊先提嗎"},{"start":11336.265,"end":11354.009,"text":"好 那我們看螢幕上是詹阿林委員的附帶決議是關於兒童及少年的身心發展及人權福祉那要進行相關的評估那這個我們是非常認可的也希望我們的部會可以盡快的來進行那這個部會應該沒有意見主委"},{"start":11366.147,"end":11380.735,"text":"啊我那個報告召委啊有有好好如果照建議修正就對那OK"},{"start":11383.539,"end":11412.326,"text":"我們建議修正啦因為國科會是負責研發我們的業務那這邊是在施行的時候應用的時候會碰到的問題所以我們回到行政院我希望就是以行政院科技政委的身份來督導我們的速發部國科會衛福部教育部等等啦就幾個部會要在行政院去討論來處理這個事情那依照這個修正的意見"},{"start":11413.146,"end":11431.495,"text":"好 謝謝那我們這個附帶決議有建議修正主席不好意思剛剛你有宣告說第七條的附帶決議就是柯之恩委員的這個附帶決議你有宣告說通過可是第七條我們本文是保留的所以附帶決議也應該一起保留才對啊本文沒有通過結果你附帶決議通過也很怪好不好 不好意思"},{"start":11437.208,"end":11459.973,"text":"好 那提案柯之恩委員 那我想我們就附帶決議也就保留謝謝林警召委的提出那張雅琳委員有提到的這個附帶決議那因為她沒有提到條文的特別的名稱啦 特別條文那為確保人工智慧等等 那也有稍微做了建議修正"},{"start":11460.473,"end":11475.979,"text":"那是以行政院科技政委指導數位發展部會同國科會教育部衛福部以及其他機關等等那條文的修正條文已經在科技政委沒放進來啊這個不是啊這個這個他手上我們同仁這裡手上好像沒有啊"},{"start":11488.305,"end":11509.385,"text":"好 那我代念好不好 代念那來不及打字的 我們就試試看那有建議修正的附帶決議為確保人工智慧應用同時兼顧兒童及少年的身心發展與人權福祉請行政院科技政委督導數位發展部"},{"start":11510.306,"end":11535.796,"text":"會同國科會教育部衛福部及其他相關機關於本法三讀通過後三個月內完成兒少影響評估人權影響評估性別影響評估並將評估報告公開發布供各界參考另請數位發展部研議建立常設性評估與評估機制"},{"start":11538.217,"end":11556.031,"text":"以定期檢視人工智慧應用對兒少權益人權及性別之影響持續強化其保護措施提案人張阿玲委員林怡瑾昭委范瑩委員陳秀寶委員郭育晴委員好"},{"start":11558.646,"end":11586.579,"text":"好那我們是不是就這個附帶決議案建議修正通過那還有也有另外一份附帶決議也是修正的那建議修正的呢是提案人是葛如君葉元之柯智恩吳宗憲委員羅廷偉委員萬美玲委員洪孟凱委員以及劉書斌委員要求行政院科技政委督導數位發展部會同國科會"},{"start":11588.553,"end":11613.458,"text":"頓浩教育部 頓浩衛福部於本法三讀後三個月內針對AI之應用完成兒少影響性評估及公開相關報告以供各界參考並研議建立相關機制以便未來定期進行相關評估及調整相關評估以保障兒少身心健康及權益好"},{"start":11614.554,"end":11636.553,"text":"我想我們求同存異那這個附帶決議這兩份是稍微有點相近的我們是不是請市長有沒有相關意見沒有其他意見沒有其他意見謝謝好那這個附帶決議也按照建議修正通過好謝謝好"},{"start":11640.495,"end":11660.707,"text":"那我们今天的审查结果免于重复宣读在不影响条文文艺前提下文字条字以及标点符号为统一体例授权意识人员修改列入记录未予采纳条文授权意识人员确认"},{"start":11661.687,"end":11675.27,"text":"那關於今天會議做如下決議對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料後衛及答覆部分請相關機關緊述與書面答覆人工智慧基本法草案"},{"start":11676.874,"end":11705.243,"text":"以全部審查完略請問是否交黨團協商要那我們須交黨團協商並按擬據審查報告提請院會討論院會討論時由葛兆吉委員儒君補充說明本次會議事務授權主席確認後及上傳立法院全球資訊網公開報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":11708.985,"end":11709.006,"text":"好"}]}},{"id":"163349","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163349","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50cdbd4de1472d59f0614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f507496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"13:04:33 - 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有請我們 蘇發部我們的政事好 蘇發部 切政事NCC 我們陳代理主委好 NCC 陳主委中華電信 簡董事長好 中華電信 簡董事長還有台電 許副總台電 許副總您好 委員好"},{"start":24.075,"end":44.248,"text":"謝謝大家辛苦了那我想這一次是針對我們丹納斯颱風還有最近的這個豪大雨針對我們南部地區災後的這個通訊中斷的一個復原機制來做討論但是我想這個我記得去年我們去年也接連好幾個颱風包含這個康納山陀爾好幾個颱風"},{"start":45.729,"end":68.32,"text":"清洗我們整個南部地區那我當時我記得我在委員會我就特別提出這個高抗災的基地台的一個設置還有所有一個電力系統的一個修復的一個建議然後我想我們就是因為過去屏東縣是一個颱風很容易清洗的一個縣市所以我想過去我們從屏東縣政府我們結合中央我們做了很多的努力"},{"start":68.82,"end":90.734,"text":"那我們也期待這個水電通訊這些民生的設施必須要有這樣的一個韌性我想應該在座幾位都同意這樣的一個論調不過從這一次的這個剛剛這次委員會討論到現在我個人是蠻失望的因為我聽到的我們不是未雨綢繆在做很多的討論而是大家"},{"start":93.836,"end":111.869,"text":"聽起來真的是很可悲所以我想我們在座幾位我想還是有幾個問題期待未來大家要共同趕快盡快來努力的部分我想這次剛剛大家都提到基地台為什麼會有一個出現大的問題當然電力中斷是一個很大的因素那當然這個電力中斷"},{"start":112.709,"end":134.555,"text":"因為過去我們這個尤其我們這個費六都我們有山區有沿海地區我們記得這個整個對於這個風力對於這個颱風的一個侵襲我們這個承受力的部分那尤其大家都說這一次這個陣風高達十幾級這真的是很恐怖但是我想未來隨著極端氣候的一個影響"},{"start":136.227,"end":159.683,"text":"因為災害有可能會越來越多而且越來越大這不是我們可以預估所以我們必須要做更大的一個準備更好的一個因應才對啦所以我想針對這個基地台跟這個電力的部分我們還是期待這個NCC跟蘇發部一個是管理這個經費輔助一個是關電信業者怎麼樣整合這個平台我還是很期待聽到你們的答案各位請你們答覆一下"},{"start":161.812,"end":179.862,"text":"我這邊先簡單跟你們報告這是風災基台通信不通大概三個原因大概前面那個說不也有說明大概基台本身被摧毀然後基台沒有電然後基台後端的傳輸壞掉比方說那個光影線都他附掛在電線桿上都斷掉了"},{"start":183.144,"end":207.882,"text":"所以要處理這三個區塊那如果機台要讓它長得更強更強韌 韌性更好的話就高抗災是個解方之一那電力的部分那如果是高抗災本身它可以撐72小時這個也沒問題那另外就是說找公有建地或者說台電來在他們的建築物上來蓋因為本身它會有那個"},{"start":208.863,"end":229.031,"text":"緊急電源這塊電力部分也相對沒問題在傳輸的部分這個事情我去年就提過了比如說我舉例來講嘛我們六都就是有區公所我們非六都都有鄉鎮公所我們看到狀況與商業會連鄉鎮公所自己的電力都癱瘓通區都不通他怎麼當指揮中心怎麼去調度這是大問題啊"},{"start":230.351,"end":244.202,"text":"這部分我去年就已經提醒要建置這樣的一個設備好像到目前為止也都沒得討論沒得說連我們的指揮中心都癱瘓怎麼樣去協助災民真的都沒有我們真的都沒有去面對這樣的一個困境然後第二個"},{"start":245.436,"end":273.573,"text":"剛剛提到我們業者 除了中華電信當然是我們的龍頭嘛那其他兩家業者我想這個每一年我們看到大家都賺很多錢但是我們的社會責任跟企業責任在哪裡遇到事情的時候我們到底有多少的人力跟這個通訊設備能夠去支援災區我們也講不出一個數據嘛大家都要等一星期 等兩星期 等三星期難道要這樣子無止盡的下去等待嗎總是要有一個解決的一個方案啊"},{"start":274.894,"end":292.965,"text":"跟我們說明7月6號以後到試電恢復之前其實業者有就他們所能動用的資源調派行動機器車都過去然後其他機台毀損情況輕微的他們去維修然後也讓他的備用電源"},{"start":294.267,"end":308.265,"text":"有油機的部分去補充柴油去發電這塊就是在當時他的條件之下他能夠做的他們大概都已經做了那中華電信當然是相對他們在其他過往的比較強壯說他們這邊整體的情況會復原的更快一點"},{"start":313.925,"end":333.397,"text":"呃 主委我還是要提醒就是說剛剛講的嘛 你說那個我們建棟有在說我們用發電機嘛齁 啊有的收台漏的不通 還是沒辦法 油就沒夠 還是要怎麼辦啊這些不是只有災民欸 還有連救災隊伍進去之後 他們怎麼去做一個通訊的聯繫這些都是大問題 有沒有什麼樣補救的一個方案"},{"start":335.994,"end":362.572,"text":"像這幾天水災在某些偏鄉地區我們行動業者想要進去維修可是路線不通啊工程車也沒有辦法進去所以這種情況要對應的解決方式說那基台如果蓋得夠穩夠壯的話它就相對是風險會比較低但是如果當地發生土石流那大概也是相對比較沒有辦法處理但是如果說高礦災能夠有建的話那風險係數會比較低一點"},{"start":364.613,"end":385.583,"text":"對啦,所以這個過去我們在沿海地區我們也要求台電嘛因為過去台電為什麼這個沿海的電感很脆弱因為長期被這個海水侵蝕之後所以加強這個基底的一個穩固性也是未來我們建設基地台要強化的一個部分啦你不能用一般的標準啦這整十幾方的標準,你要延伏十五幾個,你不也要倒移"},{"start":386.443,"end":407.275,"text":"我想這個未來建制基地台一定要有這個真的要超任性的一個基準來建立然後我們剛提到那個低軌衛星的行動基地台請問一下目前我們各縣市都有配置嗎跟委員報告就是我們總共有30台那是依據災害防治中心他把全台灣分成4區還是5區那這包含離島總共5區"},{"start":413.51,"end":435.458,"text":"北部有七台中部十台南部八台東部五台那這個都是對應到災害防治中心它的災害應變中心它的分區由這個分區來調度但是在這一次我們是把進入全台灣的行動車都調到台南跟嘉義去了這次我們使用率怎麼樣"},{"start":437.151,"end":446.008,"text":"根據我們看到的資料這個只要有調度過去的那個使用率都非常高包含他的資料量都非常大所以一定有這個必要性繼續建置嗎"},{"start":448.716,"end":465.777,"text":"我相信是有必要因為他在這一次他針對局部是有發揮關鍵的效益對但是我們未來要因應是全面性有可能會回到你現在能夠處理局部性那未來遇到更大規模甚至暫時的時候我們不是應該要做一樣超前部署的一個規劃嗎"},{"start":467.109,"end":488.431,"text":"局部性的因為因為這個低軌衛星的車子就像支架一樣是針對局部那你如果是全面性的其實電力的韌性跟這個光纖的韌性這個也是必須要考慮的如果是這樣講那就不用做了因為沒有通通都要做卡了那麼多的關卡都沒有一個可以竊決啊"},{"start":490.251,"end":509.732,"text":"全面性的災害本來就是要全面性的解決嘛 你不可能單靠一招就可以解決啊對 所以我們才是 我剛才為什麼提說 因為現在連撥泡 撥泡幫你就講不清楚 是要讓大家這些災民能夠安心啊所以我們在下半年的補助就會針對高抗災基地台跟發電機這邊來做補助"},{"start":511.454,"end":534.967,"text":"這次我就是要你講這句話是不是趁這一次我們也有特別預算有相關的預算應該是不是及早把這些我相信這一次包含不分不分朝野不分政黨我想應該大家都會支持這樣的一個預算你們要順這個資金提出你們的需求是不是應該這樣做你要分好幾次到位嗎不如要一次到位這我們看就是要一次到位所以我請裁判辦王主任"},{"start":545.2,"end":554.359,"text":"主任我想你剛剛也從早上做到現在那災防辦的角色來講你自己目前聽到目前為止這麼單位的答覆你個人滿意嗎"},{"start":557.273,"end":584.61,"text":"我們災防辦負責就是在中央災害應變中心擔任不了參謀那各部會進駐的同仁在整個應變中心的作業過程當中包括通訊的資源調度其實是他們是非常努力的因為這次災害的剛才委員有提到說風力已經超過了一些極限所以是非常的大那他們在很多的一個調度上真的都盡心盡力啦"},{"start":584.91,"end":611.638,"text":"但是還是有不足的地方當然是那災防辦應該扮演什麼角色可不可以再協助做整合的一個平台是對於這個部分其實在比較短期的部分我們行政院長 卓院長已經在對於災後的復原重建包括通訊的這一塊剛才有提到非常多的一個委員的一些相關的建議我們可以納入"},{"start":612.678,"end":628.824,"text":"近期這個關於通訊把它任性把它做一些強化那中長期當然需要靠一些中長程的一個計畫去做推動在預算資源的投入人力的投入也要去做一些強化我想"},{"start":629.764,"end":646.13,"text":"這個對於我們整個國家未來通訊的或電力的一個韌性會去做一個很大一個因為這一次的災害的經驗我們每一次的災害經驗都是一個學習我們希望能夠去克服然後更加的一個精進這樣子"},{"start":647.386,"end":666.142,"text":"主任我記得我過去也在屏東縣政府服務過我們每年都會辦災害防煉演習那我想因為我們的災害型態有很多不一樣的類型那我建議應該像這次的案例應該也要做各縣市的一個演練這非常非常的重要"},{"start":666.482,"end":681.996,"text":"委員這建議非常好我們可以把它納入將來對於這現在已經有這樣的一個情境那這樣的一個情境下我們如何去做更好的調度支援做演練我覺得一個大規模的一個演練"},{"start":683.097,"end":711.426,"text":"這絕對不是只有電信業者跟NCC蘇華部的事情包含跟未來怎麼樣跟我們的這個縣市政府甚至我們鄉鎮區公所能夠做緊密的結合我想要讓所有的從中央到地方能夠緊密的針對這個救災的體系能夠完整的一個結合然後做怎麼樣一個事實的分工然後中央把資源怎麼樣能夠善盡這個中央資源讓地方能夠最快的速度來這個救災我想這應該是我們要扮演的角色"},{"start":711.966,"end":736.814,"text":"是是我們透過因為我們依災害防救法有一個計劃的體系剛才我也有問到就是說在事前我們就要對於大家橫向協調聯繫該怎麼做會比較好然後平時有演練在災時應變中心開設的時候大家資源調度要能夠非常到位然後才能夠再復原重建所以我還是剛剛那句話"},{"start":738.106,"end":755.577,"text":"藉由今天的會議我相信未來應該是我們檢討之後應該是要做未雨綢繆的準備而不是鼠狼在撥泡泡又撥不好我相信這不是我們全面所樂見的啦也期待我們這一方應該扮演更重要的一個角色能夠去做這樣的一個提醒是非常感謝委員謝謝謝謝習護魁委員的執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（13時4分）謝謝主席，有請數發部政次。"],["主席：數發部闕政次。"],["徐委員富癸：NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：NCC陳主委。"],["徐委員富癸：中華電信簡董事長。"],["主席：中華電信簡董事長。"],["徐委員富癸：還有台電許副總。"],["主席：台電許副總。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：您好。"],["闕次長河鳴：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝，大家辛苦了。我想這一次是針對丹娜絲颱風，還有最近的豪大雨，對南部地區災後通訊中斷的復原機制做討論。我記得去年包含康芮、山陀兒，接連好幾個颱風侵襲整個南部地區，當時我在委員會就特別提出高抗災基地台的設置，還有所有電力系統的修復建議，因為屏東縣是一個颱風很容易侵襲的縣市，所以過去屏東縣政府結合中央，做了很多的努力，我們也期待水電通運這些民生的設施必須要有韌性，我想應該在座幾位都同意這樣的論調。","不過從剛剛委員會討論到現在，我個人是滿失望的，因為我聽到的，不是未雨綢繆做很多的討論，而是大家連要補破網都不會補，聽起來真的是很可悲，所以對於在座幾位還是有幾個問題，期待未來大家要共同趕快來努力。","剛剛大家都提到基地台為什麼會出現大問題，當然電力中斷是一個很大的因素，尤其非六都有山區、有沿海地區，對於風力、颱風侵襲的承受力部分，大家都說這次陣風高達十幾級，這真的是很恐怖，我想未來隨著極端氣候的影響，災害有可能會越來越多，而且越來越大，這不是我們可以預估，所以必須要做更大的準備、更好的因應才對。針對基地台跟電力的部分，我們期待NCC跟數發部，一個是管理經費補助，一個是管電信業者，怎麼樣整合這個平台，我還是很期待聽到你們的答案，請答復一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我這邊先簡單跟委員報告，就是這次風災基地台通訊不通，大概3個原因，前面數位部也有說明，基地台本身被摧壞，基地台沒有電，然後基地台後端的傳輸壞掉，比方說光纜線附掛在電線桿上的都斷掉了，所以要處理就是這3個區塊。","如果基地台要更強韌、韌性更好的話，高抗災是解方之一。電力的部分，如果是高抗災本身可以撐72小時，這一塊也沒問題；另外就是找公有建地，或者台電蓋在他們的建築物上，因為它本身會有緊急電源，這一塊電力的部分也相對沒問題。在傳輸的部分……"],["徐委員富癸：好，主委，這個事情我去年就提過了。我舉例來講，六都有區公所，非六都有鄉鎮公所，我們看到的狀況是什麼？連鄉鎮公所自己的電力都癱瘓，通訊都不通，它怎麼當指揮中心、怎麼去調度？這是大問題，這部分我去年就已經提醒要建置這樣的設備，好像到目前為止也都不去討論、不去講，連指揮中心都癱瘓，怎麼樣去協助災民？我們真的都沒有去面對這樣的一個困境。","第二個，剛剛提到我們的業者，除了中華電信當然是龍頭嘛，還有其他兩家業者，我們看到每一年都賺很多錢啦，但是社會責任跟企業責任在哪裡？遇到事情的時候，到底有多少的人力跟通訊設備能夠支援災區，也講不出一個數據嘛，大家都要等一個禮拜、等兩個禮拜、等三個禮拜，難道要這樣子無止境地等待下去嗎？總是要有一個解決的方案啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員說明，就是7月6日以後，到市電恢復之前，其實業者有就他們所能動用的資源，調派行動基地車都過去了；然後其他基地台毀損情況輕微的，他們也去維修；也讓備用電源有油機的部分，補充柴油來發電，這塊就是在當時條件下他們能夠做的，大概都已經做了，中華電信當然是相較於過往強韌，所以他們整體的情況會復原得更快一點。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我還是要提醒，你剛剛前面講，簡董表示有在用發電機，但是有的地方路就不通或者油不夠，要怎麼辦？這些不是只有災民，連救災隊伍進去之後要怎麼去做通訊的聯繫，這些都是大問題，有沒有什麼樣補救的方案？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，委員講的沒錯，就像這幾天水災，在某些偏鄉地區，我們電信業者想要進去維修，可是路就不通，工程車也沒有辦法進去，所以這種情況要對應的解決方式是如果基地台蓋得夠穩、夠壯的話，相對的風險會比較低，但是如果當地發生土石流，那大概也是相對比較沒有辦法處理，如果高抗災有做的話，風險係數會比較低一點。"],["徐委員富癸：對，過去在沿海地區，我們也要求台電，因為過去沿海的電桿長期被海水侵蝕很脆弱，所以加強基底的穩固性也是未來我們建置基地台要強化的部分，你不能用一般的標準，10級風的標準要怎麼應付15級風？當然會倒。所以我想未來建置基地台一定要用超韌性的基準來建立。","然後我們剛剛提到低軌衛星的行動基地台，請教一下目前各縣市都有配置嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，我們總共有30台，那是依據災害應變中心把全臺灣包含離島分成五區，北部有7台、中部10台、南部8台、東部5台，這都對應到災害應變中心的分區，根據這個分區來調度，但是這一次我們幾乎把全臺灣的行動車都調到臺南跟嘉義去了。"],["徐委員富癸：使用率怎麼樣？"],["闕次長河鳴：根據我們看到的資料，只要有調度過去的，使用率都非常高，包含它的資料量都非常大。"],["徐委員富癸：所以一定有繼續建置的必要性嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：我相信是有必要，因為這一次它針對局部是有發揮關鍵的效益。"],["徐委員富癸：對，但是我們未來要因應全面性的災害，有可能都會碰到，你現在能夠處理局部性，那未來遇到更大規模的災害甚至戰時的時候，我們不是應該要做超前部署的規劃嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：因為低軌衛星的車子就像指甲一樣，是針對局部；如果是全面性的，其實電力的韌性跟光纖的韌性也是必須要考慮的。"],["徐委員富癸：如果這樣講，那就不用做了啊，因為……"],["闕次長河鳴：沒有，通通都要做，不是不要做。"],["徐委員富癸：卡了那麼多的關卡，沒有一個可以解決啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：沒有，全面性的災害本來就是要全面性的解決嘛，不可能單靠一招就可以解決。"],["徐委員富癸：對，所以我剛剛為什麼會說你們現在連補破網都講不清楚了，是要怎麼讓這些災民能夠安心啊？"],["闕次長河鳴：所以我們在下半年的補助就會針對高抗災基地台跟發電機來做補助。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我就是要你講這句話，是不是趁這一次如果有特別預算、有相關的預算應該及早提出來？我相信這一次不分朝野、不分政黨，大家應該都會支持這樣的預算，你們要順勢趕快提出你們的需求，不是應該這樣做嗎？你要分好幾次到位嗎？不如一次到位，我們看起來是要一次到位啦！所以我請問災防辦王主任，主任也從早上坐到現在，就災防辦的角色來講，你自己聽到目前為止，各單位的答復你個人滿意嗎？"],["王主任怡文：我們災防辦負責在中央災害應變中心擔任幕僚參謀，各部會進駐的同仁在整個應變中心的作業過程當中，包括通訊的資源調度，其實他們是非常努力的，因為這次的災害，剛才委員有提到風力已經超過了極限、非常大，他們在很多調度上真的都盡心盡力。"],["徐委員富癸：但是還是有不足的地方。"],["王主任怡文：當然是。"],["徐委員富癸：那災防辦應該扮演什麼角色？可不可以協助做整合的平台？"],["王主任怡文：是，對於這個部分，在比較短期的部分，行政院卓院長已經對於災後的復原重建包括通訊這一塊，剛才有非常多委員提出相關的建議，我們可以納入，近期把通訊的韌性做一些強化，那中長期當然需要靠一些中長程的計畫去推動，在預算、資源的投入、人力的投入也要去做一些強化，我想這對於我們整個國家未來通訊的或電力的韌性會做一個很大的……因為這一次災害的經驗，我們每一次的災害經驗都是一個學習，我們希望能夠去克服然後更加的精進。"],["徐委員富癸：主任，我過去也在屏東縣政府服務過，我們每一年都會辦災害防練演習。"],["王主任怡文：對、都有。"],["徐委員富癸：因為我們的災害有很多不一樣的類型，我建議各縣市也應該針對這次的案例做一個演練，這非常非常的重要。"],["王主任怡文：委員的建議非常好，我們可以把它納入將來對於……現在已經有這樣一個情境，在這樣的情境下，針對如何去做更好的調度、支援及演練。"],["徐委員富癸：是，我也相信這不只是……"],["王主任怡文：一個大規模的演練。"],["徐委員富癸：這絕對不是只有電信業者、NCC、數發部的事情。"],["王主任怡文：不是，不止。"],["徐委員富癸：包含未來怎麼樣跟縣市政府甚至鄉鎮市區公所做緊密的結合，我想從中央到地方應該緊密的結合，針對救災體系做完整、適時的分工，然後中央怎麼樣能夠善用中央的資源，讓地方能夠用最快的速度來救災，我想這應該是你們要扮演的角色。"],["王主任怡文：是，因為依災害防救法，我們有一個計畫的體系，剛才委員也有問到，就是在事前我們就要對於大家橫向協調、聯繫該怎麼做會比較好，然後平時有演練，在災時應變中心開設的時候，大家的資源調度要能夠非常到位，然後復原重建才能夠做得好。"],["徐委員富癸：所以我還是剛剛那句話，藉由今天的會議，我想未來我們檢討之後應該要做未雨綢繆的準備，而不是事後再補破網又補不好，我相信這不是我們全民所樂見的，也期待災防辦應該扮演更重要的角色，能夠去做這樣的提醒。"],["王主任怡文：是，非常感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員的質詢。","現在請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d506aa4c870456495e8614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f5e70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:55:50 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謝謝陳書偉因為我聽您這樣說的話好像似乎是業者提出這個災防計畫但是呢其實依照災害防救法的這個相關規定"},{"start":148.232,"end":164.8,"text":"行政院可能是當然的這個災害防救匯報的召集人那其他的機關其實也都有這個責任必須要去擬定相關的計畫那麼所以就NCC跟述發部你們過去從來沒有提過類似這種遇到大規模的通訊災害的時候要怎麼緊急處理"},{"start":165.76,"end":187.076,"text":"至少你們要有一個統籌的能力因為從這一次的情況來看發現說一旦當機地台整個都受損那麼其他的這個救援的通訊機制就是沒有辦法銜接起來或是銜接的很好所以你們之前都沒有各個書發部跟NCC都沒有相關的計畫嗎"},{"start":188.157,"end":214.887,"text":"跟我們報告您提的問題分兩個層次第一個層次就是關鍵基礎設施他本來就有關鍵基礎設施的應變計畫那這一個呢只要他被列為通傳的關鍵基礎設施我們都有去檢驗他的應變計畫那也有做演練那第二個是在災防的時候呢災防的時候速發部跟NCC都是在災害應變中心的水電維生組裡面"},{"start":216.468,"end":233.613,"text":"那我們的同仁也都會到新店的災害應變中心去值班那在每一次的會議也都會統計基地台跟這個通訊車派遣的情況那這些調度也都是在應變中心的架構裡面下的指令"},{"start":234.005,"end":255.034,"text":"好了解了但是就是說從這次看起來似乎就是說你們應變的處理的狀況並不是很理想那麼當然從今天你們報告裡面有看到就是說你們當時也其實也緊急了也調判了這個行動基地台車那麼請問一下各個電信業者當時個別是有幾輛還是全部都是中華電信的行動基地台的車"},{"start":256.75,"end":280.496,"text":"三家都有 總共136台 30台是自然衛星的那中華電信本身就有50台然後其他的電信業者其他電信業者 台哥大跟遠傳的 他們行動基地談車大概也就只有十幾二十部囉不只不只 但是有衛星 有自然衛星oneweb的時候各10台 各是三家各10台而已"},{"start":280.936,"end":304.824,"text":"是 可是現在就是支援OneWeb衛星的不是只有中華電信嗎就是中華電信沒有沒有沒有 三家都有都是自衛部補助他們一家十台是 在今年五月的時候我其實有在交通的總諮詢當中有問過說現在OneWeb的這個設置的狀況怎麼樣當時陳主委是說2024年的年底就全部都可以建置完畢"},{"start":306.656,"end":321.732,"text":"應該說他已經拿到我們那個審議合格所以他已經可以那去年前年以來數位部是在做POC實驗那現在已經他可以正式商轉那未來就是數位部本身有個700多點的計畫已經進行前端計畫進行了好幾年"},{"start":324.275,"end":341.615,"text":"因為你們之前並沒有說要把這個One Wave拿來做商轉所以這也是當時本席在總諮詢的時候有提出為什麼未來不朝向商轉的這樣的可能性你們現在看起來就是做這個One Wave的低軌衛星只是為了就是發生這種緊急狀況災害的時候要提出救援"},{"start":344.787,"end":361.088,"text":"對不對那但是在這一次發生這麼重大災害的時候我們看到其實這個利用低軌衛星的這個通訊的這個狀況也沒有說那麼好對所以這部分是不是應該通盤檢討而且本席在這裡要提醒就是說其實除了one wave之外還有starlinks"},{"start":361.728,"end":382.416,"text":"這個是全世界現在使用率最多的而且現在很多的手機基本上都已經支援Starlink或者是這個OneWave當然Starlink是因為它的這個佈局率是最高的所以你們現在是不是因為經過了這次的風災水災之後有沒有考慮就是認真考慮要開放"},{"start":383.87,"end":406.618,"text":"跟委員報告我們國內其實一直都持開放態度兩三年前中華電信或者其他一個其實都有在跟STARLINK在談那目前就是先前STARLINK他是有其他的考量也比較沒有意願在台灣落地其實他現在要落地的話他先前講的幾個他覺得是有問題的其實都不是問題第一個他說"},{"start":408.118,"end":425.937,"text":"因為當時最大的問題就是法規上面的障礙嘛他認為是外資比例那一塊其實外資比例那一塊其實不是問題因為電信法時期到現在這條規則都沒有改變但是電信法時期的海南業者那時候所謂的一流業者都要符合這個外資比例的法尊其實都可以操作都有問題那他最大的問題為什麼他不願意來台灣呢"},{"start":431.162,"end":458.354,"text":"因為那都是他的選擇我們中華電視也很引力去跟他談當然我們看到了其他的新聞報導好像似乎是台灣政府這邊不是很有意願開放不過我是真的認為說經過這一次的這麼重大的風災水災之後我們發現其實光是靠傳統的這種基地台或是最普遍的一般基地台的這種機制是不夠的那麼低軌衛星這個是必然的趨勢而且就像我講的其實現在很多國家都已經開放商轉了"},{"start":459.855,"end":469.165,"text":"如果說未來能夠讓很多的民眾當他沒有辦法連接到一般行動通訊的時候可以直接連接到低軌衛星的話這個基本上對於救災來講絕對是有幫助那我也希望就是書發部跟NCC兩個機關能夠認真的思考要朝向這方面去做開放那麼至於就是說到底什麼原因"},{"start":480.496,"end":502.325,"text":"以至於Stonix不願意來臺灣落地來做商轉是不是可以請NCC或是書發部到底哪個機關是主管機關可以給我一份報告外資比例這邊目前是NCC管我們會寫一份報告給你還有就是說其他的原因到底現在的評審是在哪邊可以兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告說好嗎好 我們盡快好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":883,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時55分）主席好。有請數發部闕次長、NCC陳代理主委、災防辦公室王主任以及中華電信簡董事長。"],["主席：有請數發部闕政次、NCC陳代理主委、簡董事長、王主任。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["闕次長河鳴：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：大家好。這次丹娜絲颱風的災情確實造成中南部通訊很嚴重的破壞及受損，中華電信、NCC、數發部及災防辦公室，在這個過程當中也很盡心盡力地儘速搶救來恢復通訊。但是這個過程坦白說，對於很多的受災民眾來講，還是覺得時間太緩慢，尤其是我們看到好些地區一直拖到現在，可能還沒有辦法全部恢復，從風災發生到現在大概已經二十來天了。雖然這幾天又下大豪雨，可能又造成搶救極為困難，但是本席想要跟你們請教，災防中心依照災害防救法，本來就應該有一套各個部會的災防計畫，請問NCC跟數發部到底有沒有做這樣的災防計畫？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，災害防救計畫是依據災防法請業者提報，然後我們會來審理，也會請他們定期每2年都要報1次並更新，這是事前的部分。關於事中的部分，如果發生天然災害，既有的機制是只要災防辦或者海警成立的時候，我們跟業者都會成立應變中心，後續都會有災情的協作來回應及回饋處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝陳主委。我聽您這樣說，似乎是業者提出災防計畫，但是依照災害防救法的相關規定，行政院可能是當然的災害防救會報召集人，其他的機關也都有責任必須擬定相關的計畫，就NCC跟數發部來講，過去從來沒有提過類似遇到大規模通訊災害要怎麼緊急處理？至少你們要有一個統籌的能力，因為從這一次的情況來看，發現一旦基地臺整個受損，其他的救援通訊機制沒有辦法銜接起來或是銜接得很好，數發部跟NCC之前都沒有相關的計畫嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，您提的問題分兩個層次：第一個層次就是關鍵基礎設施本來就有它的應變計畫，只要被列為通傳的關鍵基礎設施，我們都有去檢驗它的應變計畫並做演練；第二個是在災防的時候，數發部跟NCC都是在災害應變中心的水電維生組裡面，我們的同仁也都會到新店的災害應變中心值班，在每一次的會議都會統計基地臺跟通訊車派遣的情況，這些調度也都是在應變中心的架構裡下的指令。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，了解了，但是從這次看起來，似乎你們應變處理的狀況並不是很理想，當然從今天報告裡面有看到你們當時其實也緊急調派了行動基地台車，請問一下，當時各個電信業者個別有幾輛？還是全部都是中華電信的行動基地台車？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：三家都有，總共136台，30台是支援衛星的，中華電信本身就有50台。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後其他的電信業者，台哥大跟遠傳的行動基地台車，大概也就只有十幾、二十部囉？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不只，但是有支援衛星OneWeb的各10台，三家各10台而已。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是現在支援OneWeb衛星的，不是只有中華電信嗎？就是中華電信……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，三家都有，都是數位部補助他們，一家10台。"],["翁委員曉玲：其實在今年5月的時候，我在交通組的總質詢中有問過現在OneWeb的設置狀況怎麼樣？當時陳主委是說2024年的年底就可以全部建置完畢。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該說它已經拿到我們的審議合格，所以已經可以，去年、前年以來，數位部是在做PoC實驗，現在已經可以正式商轉，未來就是……數位部本身有一個設置七百多點的前瞻計畫已經進行了好幾年。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，因為你們之前並沒有說要把OneWeb拿來做商轉，這也是當時本席總質詢的時候提出為什麼未來不朝向商轉的可能性，你們現在看起來做OneWeb的低軌衛星，只是為了發生緊急狀況災害的時候要提出救援，對不對？但我們看到在這次發生這麼重大的災害，其實利用低軌衛星的通訊狀況也沒有那麼好，所以這部分是不是應該要通盤檢討？而且本席在這裡要提醒，就是除了OneWeb之外，還有Starlink，這是全世界現在使用率最多的，而且現在很多手機基本上都已經支援Starlink或者是OneWeb，因為Starlink的布及率是最高的……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：經過了這次的風災，水災之後，你們有沒有認真考慮要開放？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我們國內其實一直都持開放態度，兩、三年前中華電信或者其他業者都有跟Starlink在談，先前Starlink有其他的考量，也比較沒有意願在臺灣落地，其實現在要落地的話，先前它講幾個覺得是問題的，其實都不是問題，第一個它說……"],["翁委員曉玲：當時最大的問題就是法規上面的障礙嘛，因為我們不開放外資。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：它認為是外資比例那一塊，但外資比例那一塊其實不是問題，因為電信法時期到現在，這條規則都沒有改變，但是電信法時期的海纜業者，那時候所謂的第一類業者都要符合外資比例的法則，其實都可以操作，都不會有問題，如果它願意……"],["翁委員曉玲：那它最大的問題……為什麼不願意來臺灣呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為那都是它的選擇，中華電信也很努力去跟它談。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們看到了其他的新聞報導，似乎是臺灣政府這邊不是很有意願開放，不過我是真的認為經過這一次這麼重大的風災、水災之後，我們發現其實光靠傳統基地台，或是最普遍的一般基地台，這種機制是不夠的，低軌衛星是必然的趨勢，而且就像我講的，現在很多國家都已經開放商轉了，如果未來能夠讓很多的民眾，當他沒有辦法連結到一般行動通訊的時候，可以直接連接到低軌衛星的話，基本上對於救災來講，絕對是有幫助，我也希望數發部跟NCC兩個機關能夠認真地思考，朝向這方面去做開放。","至於到底什麼原因，以至於Starlink不願意來臺灣落地做商轉，是不是請主管機關NCC或是數發部，可以給我一份報告？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：外資比例目前是NCC管，我們會寫一份報告給你。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，還有其他的原因，到底現在的瓶頸是在哪邊，可以兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告書好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們儘快。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d504ec47cb6f96e7a35614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f5e70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"12:44:00 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台電喜富總經理能源署 中華電信 數碼庫NCC我們那個翁主任秘書還有那個我們鄭次 崔鄭次還有我們陳主委簡董事長"},{"start":30.162,"end":35.568,"text":"台電你先答一下,一般的風災,太陽燃火要這麼多,您說的意思是它還有部分在發電嗎?是,那我想要跟委員報告"},{"start":52.472,"end":77.395,"text":"太陽能毀損除非是全面性的否則毀損了20%那其他80%大概他就還有70%可以把電到潰線透過潰線到我們電網對不對如果看他沿途如果說有一個據點沒有問題 這樣就好 感謝你能源署也有來開會就是要解決問題"},{"start":79.264,"end":92.471,"text":"那能源署就是說這個太空零零罐剛才在潰線 台電開那一支那麼這個潰線裡面可以潰一條網路線嗎?應該可以這是原本潰線的功勞 再來蘇華部你說有算刪掉它啊刪得很可憐 你有沒有人要買衛生紙給人家簽名?"},{"start":109.793,"end":127.756,"text":"剛才委員在跟你們說 三個都沒有錢三十本也要有一本 如果金金也可以拆英啊有三個有三個都沒辦法做事情 你還在這裡叫我很可憐感謝委員的說 你覺得真的都沒有錢能夠做你敢這樣說嗎所以 要有良心 國安要有經過頭"},{"start":138.434,"end":156.258,"text":"可以做多少算多少 譬如說因應災變 因應戰爭 真正沒辦法需要調研大家共同來針對五省及其這都可以討論 這樣就變得很理性了跟不是我告訴你 你們這樣做的問題 聽了之後才有辦法基地台 我請教電話電信"},{"start":164.229,"end":183.793,"text":"你剛才還在說要用那個桌子 書啊 布啊 又說要用發電機我請教你在現在中華電信 不管其他業者你現在有沒有還在使用全向的基地台有啊 有嘛 專用的有 定用的也有嘛海濱這麼空闊"},{"start":188.584,"end":213.942,"text":"您在發生風態之後,你有沒有加大功率?你剛才說的,NCC台電的電信跟電信夾車,有給你申請加大功率嗎?我們有跟他講說只要符合規範,他們的調整這段時間有沒有嘛他們沒有回報,但是我們跟他說要改善一般是調整天線角度不是啦,董事長"},{"start":215.916,"end":229.239,"text":"中華電信 現在要漫遊 其實今天就可以做所有的Data都有你吃到一斤的芒果 吃多少 吃幾分鐘 聽小怎麼聽 其實你們三間電信公司完全沒問題"},{"start":230.905,"end":251.018,"text":"所以剛才NCC在說,這災防法比較有辦法解決,現在補分有自愛難行主席我是建議說,藥廠下去進步,我們要開一個聯席,心責,給他促成其實現在就要做一件事,要萬倍嘛,因為大家消業費嘛,沒有人要省錢喝現在要踢小,怎麼會不踢"},{"start":259.454,"end":280.904,"text":"只要一個災害 緊急 應變一個命令下來 其實屬澳中華電信 跟其他的電信公司聽起來 我要說我市場電信公司還不算我就在做電信啊所以我告訴你 你基地台 你說沒電 我請問你基地台裡面 幾噸沒檢查mattery啊"},{"start":287.075,"end":296.6,"text":"委員替你報告基地台的電力是一段時間都會檢測那不是基地台電力的問題一段時間可以檢測你避風電力多久你設定幾點鐘給NCC說你對著基地台設定避風電力要多少空運行的起碼要能夠蓄電4小時那高抗災要72小時"},{"start":311.526,"end":325.149,"text":"70里休息那這是屬於規格標好的為什麼停電後後期在台有的失靈有的還在運作有的失靈我就影響我電信你們剛才討論費率599到699到799我奇怪 幾個月有信號我比較沒有我2699吃到飽我是你們的VIP我2699吃幾頓 你知道嗎"},{"start":340.131,"end":351.84,"text":"為什麼我到長沙也沒電 你的行動通訊車有在那 郭國文不錯 他調兩台在那我也沒有 我也沒有信號 你是大小人看我要去勘測總要把我當起來我也沒有 我還吃現場年輕人他吃到你的基地台 吃到你行動機立台的信號 我還吃他的 我還連結他的"},{"start":367.25,"end":381.66,"text":"所以我在這裡要跟你們說 蔓藥也好 要做一件事 但是不要拖了啦主席 我覺得這個再拖就沒意思了這樣是需要雷震波移椒災防法 下令說現在這時就可以跨越別蔓藥 蔓藥之後 因為鐵燒燒燒你們都沒問題嘛"},{"start":390.436,"end":408.387,"text":"很簡單的 這些東西炸了都將空在你們手裡所以不需要去替這個無分嘛現在就是說 財庫 我剛才在跟你們說開花 要有一個應變西部 太陽影射這麼多 美麗的大地 也不像台灣讓你們囤大到這樣 不然你們也回饋一下就是說 太陽明顯起的時候 真的天災地變來你們也不怕 八月 九月 十月 還有可能的風太大"},{"start":420.51,"end":436.936,"text":"風太過來 會變成怎樣所以在基地台 每一個基地台的挑釁所他要把電送回去台電的電盤的時候在這個地方 我請問你 能建立一個臨時的鐵鐵22管7樓管的避兇電塔嗎其實那是完全沒有的 這只有一個結構問題當時剛才我說的意思是什麼 你聽到沒有"},{"start":451.209,"end":459.556,"text":"所有電網都回電的時候 電位條倒了沒電的時候 但是這條零售海濱這裡的太陽能發電是有電的它的電要送到你的電網也送不回來坦白講 開線可以送到 但是電位條你送不進來是不是這樣 台電是不是這樣它發電送出去 我這裡的發電送出去到你的電網 但是我在這裡沒電能吃"},{"start":478.936,"end":494.323,"text":"我請問你 這樣可以在當地一個特定所在那裡的電 不要說給社區這裡因為社區就是說 緊急救災所要用的電可以直接對這個特定所 噴出來在現場做一個緊急的韌性 強化你們每次都說韌性 這就可以強化韌性你們參加的 力猶猶的太陽林公司 怎麼不蓋這個火花"},{"start":506.465,"end":507.686,"text":"技術上是可行"},{"start":523.622,"end":546.016,"text":"不要說可行啦 但是啊 但是的能言俗慣啊NCC要求的啊 司法部給他要求的啊主席這是很簡單的事情 但是沒有人要去做也不知人 也沒有人要去煮飯你以為那裡有多少案中那裡有多少案中 一百案中就可以有一百的基地台"},{"start":547.165,"end":563.213,"text":"臨時的 所以我剛才跟你講 虧欠為什麼因為中華電信你做一條顧問日 那不開很多錢 因為功勞都好了嘛電算好 董事長你跟我說 功勞都好的情形台電的開算功勞都好的時候 拜託你中華電信配一條顧問 光線顧問日 要開很多錢嗎不用啦 齁 董事長我說這樣有利嗎 齁 真清楚 這樣是不是問題要解決啦"},{"start":575.318,"end":584.853,"text":"結果 大家覺得很不白天晴到六點 真可惜啦 國家用這麼多資源 不用這麼多公務人員大家都不敢講真話 都要配合他說 啊沒有錢喔 有勝算啦齁 你沒有錢能做啦齁"},{"start":589.918,"end":613.722,"text":"聽到心情痛 災民在那裡很辛苦 你聽得懂嗎你看災苦的人 不要說人家在表演了 解救就救了這是你們可以做 你要了解 災民在那裡的時候沒水沒電 最主要一定是沒消息 這是他最恐慌 內心的恐慌會從這裡來可是今天你的忙喔 幸好讓他在外面可以聯絡他就不會怕 他心就不會怕"},{"start":618.41,"end":632.093,"text":"明確在這裡啦 所以我建議說你們看保肥也好 NCC也好 塑化部也好 台電也好 臨環署我剛才在講這個問題 其實是味噢中油啦 沒喝多久人家說蝦丁就要這種貨來牛 你看他給我們賺錢賺錢 一個案中給我們賺幾百億叫他在那裡蓋一個基底起來 一個鐵塔起來"},{"start":641.172,"end":657.355,"text":"建立一基二十米的鐵塔一筆不惜技術這樣建立我們臨時村子整個都廢物了基地都廢物了我們可以臨時建置因為怎樣 當地有電源有古往潰線董事長我說這樣有理嗎沒有理有啦 如果有電 當然基地都會有電有電的問題我替你解決了嘛 好不好感謝您謝謝我們謝龍介"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":837,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（12時44分）主席，請台電、中華電信及數發部。"],["主席：請台電許副總經理、能源署翁主任秘書、數發部闕政次、NCC陳代理主委，還有中華電信簡董事長。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：台電你們先回答一下。"],["許副總經理國隆：是。"],["謝委員龍介：這次風災造成太陽能毀損這麼多，你們的意思是還有部分在發電嘛？"],["許副總經理國隆：是。"],["謝委員龍介：是吧？"],["許副總經理國隆：是，我想要跟委員報告……"],["謝委員龍介：沒關係，有就好了。太陽能除非毀損是全面性的，否則毀損了20%，其他80%，大概還有70%可以把電透過饋線到我們電網，對不對？"],["許副總經理國隆：對，如果它沿途有一個據點……"],["謝委員龍介：沒問題，這樣就好。"],["許副總經理國隆：了解。"],["謝委員龍介：感謝你。能源署也有來嘛！開會就是要解決問題，能源署就是管這些太陽能的，台電在饋線花那麼多錢，這個饋線裡面可以配一條網路線嗎？應該可以吧？在原本饋線的管路裡。","數發部你們說預算被刪掉了，被刪到很可憐，你們真的沒錢可以買衛生紙給人家擦鼻涕，剛才林委員在問你們，你們說刪到都沒錢，刪了一半也還要另有一半啊！如果緊急的話也可以採用，刪些預算就沒辦法做事情？你就在這裡裝的很可憐！你們敢說真的都沒錢可以做，你們敢這樣說嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：報告委員……"],["謝委員龍介：所以不要為了這個，希望要有良心啦！官員要有肩膀，可以做多少算多少，譬如因應災變、因應戰爭真的沒辦法，需要朝野大家針對預算共同來支持，這些都可以討論的，這樣就變成理性了，不是嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：謝謝委員支持。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你們說啦！你們這樣「癢的不抓，痛的抓到破皮！」針對基地臺，我請教中華電信，剛才數發部還在說要用發電機，我請教中華電信，不管其他業者，你們現在有沒有還在使用全向的基地臺？"],["簡董事長志誠：有啊！"],["謝委員龍介：有嘛！有全向的，也有單向的嘛！海邊這麼廣闊，你們在發生颱風之後，有沒有加大功率？你先不要講，請教NCC，台電、中華電信跟其他電信業者有跟你們申請加大功率嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們有跟他們講只要符合規範，他們的調整……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有啦！在這段期間有沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他們沒有回報，但是我們跟他們說要改善。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有就好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一般是調整天線角度。"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦！董事長，中華電信現在要做漫遊，其實今天就可以做，所有的data都有，你使用到哪一間的網路，使用多少、使用幾分鐘、拆帳怎麼拆，其實你們三間電信公司完全沒問題，所以剛才NCC在說這個災防法才有辦法解決，現在有些部分是窒礙難行。主席，我是建議邀請內政部，我們來開一個聯席會審查並促成啦！其實現在就可以做了，他們「蠻皮」，大家都在相互推責，沒人要承擔責任嘛！為何現在要拆帳不能拆？只要有一個災害緊急應變的命令下來，其實事後中華電信跟其他的電信公司拆帳……我跟你們說，四間電信公司還沒出來，我就在做電信了，所以我跟你們說基地臺，你們說沒電，我請問你，幾年沒檢查基地臺裡面的電池了？"],["簡董事長志誠：跟委員報告，基地臺的電池是每隔一段時間都會檢查，不是基地臺電池的問題，只是說……"],["謝委員龍介：一段時間可以檢查，你們備用電力可以用多久？你們設定幾小時？來，請NCC回答，你們對於基地臺設置的備用電力是要多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：功率型的起碼要能夠蓄電4小時，高抗災的要72小時。"],["謝委員龍介：72小時？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這是屬於規格比較好的。"],["謝委員龍介：為什麼停電之後，基地臺有的就失靈，有的還有在運作？我就是使用中華電信的，你們剛才在討論費率599、699到799，我覺得奇怪，為何郭國文有信號，我怎麼會沒有？我的是2,699吃到飽，我是你們的VIP，我2,699使用幾年了，你知道嗎？為什麼我到山上會沒電？行動通訊車有在那裡，郭國文不錯，他調兩臺在那裡，我還是沒有信號啊！你們大小眼，看我要去勘災就把我擋起來，是這樣嗎？我還是沒有啊！我還使用現場年輕人的訊號，他接收到行動基地臺的訊號，我才能使用、連結到他的，所以在這裡我要跟你們說就算是漫遊也好，可以去做但不要再推拖了，主席，我覺得這部分再推諉就沒意思。如果是這樣的話，就需要內政部依照災防法下令即時進行跨越別漫遊，在漫遊之後的拆帳、收帳，你們都沒問題！很簡單的！這些東西早就都掌控在你們的手裡了，所以不需要去推卸這個部分嘛！關於災區事宜，我剛才跟你們說開會要做出一個應變機制。西部地區的太陽能設施做這麼多，美麗的大地和母親臺灣讓你們蹂躪成這樣，不然你們也回饋一下。當太陽能設備被掀走，這真的是天災地變的時候，不要忘記8月、9月、10月可能還會有颱風，颱風再來會變成怎樣？","在每一個基地臺的蓄電所，要把電送回去台電的電網時，請問在這個地方可以建立一個臨時的鐵架，有20米、7樓高的備用電塔嗎？其實那是完全沒危害的，這僅是一個結構物而已，董事長，我這樣講的意思是什麼？你聽得懂嗎？之後，所有的電網都斷電、電線桿倒了沒電的時候，但是這個蓄電所、海邊的這些太陽能發電廠是有電的，它的電要輸送去電網也送不回去，坦白說，饋線部分可以輸送回去，但是電線桿部分輸送不進來，台電是不是這樣？"],["許副總經理國隆：是。"],["謝委員龍介：它發電後可以輸送出去，這邊在發電提供給電網，但是這個地方卻沒有電可以使用，請問能把當地蓄電所的電，先不要說給社區使用啦！如果是緊急救災所要用的電，可以直接從蓄電所分出來，在現場做一個緊急的韌性強化嗎？你們時不時都在說韌性，這部分就是可以強化韌性。你們和那些綠友友的太陽能公司，怎麼不能回饋一下嗎？能源署，這樣執行上有問題嗎？"],["翁主任秘書素真：這部分我們會請台電公司針對整個技術上的問題……"],["謝委員龍介：不要再請台電來！技術上有問題嗎？請台電說明。"],["許副總經理國隆：技術上是可行，但是……"],["謝委員龍介：不要說可行啦！但是怎麼樣？但是就是能源署管的啊！NCC要求的啊！數發部跟它要求就好了啊！主席，這是很簡單的事情，但是沒人要去做，這既不會得罪人，也沒有使用它很多的電！你想一下那裡有多少案場，那麼多的案場，100個案場就可以有100個臨時基地臺。我剛才說饋線的部分，中華電信建立1條固網不會花很多錢，因為管路都建置好了，電線也弄好了。董事長，在台電的饋線及管路都建置好的情形下，中華電信配1條光纖固網進去，要花很多錢嗎？"],["簡董事長志誠：不用啦！"],["謝委員龍介：董事長，我這樣說有道理嗎？很清楚的，這樣問題是不是解決了？結果大家都「癢的不抓，痛的抓到破皮」，很可惜啊！國家用這麼多資源培養這麼多公務人員，大家都不敢講真話，都要配合說沒錢了！預算刪了沒錢可做了！聽到這個心很痛啦！災民在那裡很難過，你聽懂嗎？你看災區的人，不要說人家在表演，該救就救，這是你們可以做的。你要瞭解，災民在那裡是沒水、沒電的，最主要的是他沒有訊號、消息，這是最惶恐的，內心的惶恐會由此而來。如果今天的網路、訊號可以對外聯絡，他就不會害怕了，內心也不會怕了，關鍵在這裡啦！所以我建議跨部會也好、NCC也好、數發部也好、台電也好或者能源署，剛才說的這個問題其實是未雨綢繆、毋臨渴掘井，人家說「好天著積雨來糧」，你看他們賺千、賺萬，一個案場賺好幾百億！要求它在那邊蓋一個基地臺，一支鐵塔搭起來，建立一支20米的鐵塔以備不時之需，假使整個基地臺都毀壞了，還可以臨時建置，因為當地有電源、有固網、有饋線。董事長，我說的這些有沒有道理？"],["簡董事長志誠：有啦，如果有電，當然基地臺就能運作。"],["謝委員龍介：電的問題我替你解決了嘛！好不好？感謝你。"],["主席：謝謝謝龍介委員的質詢。他剛剛提出的一些解決之道其實是可以做的，你們不要發現問題都不解決，委員都已經提出來把它納入未雨綢繆及整體規劃，因為極端氣候真的需要大家認真地協助，好不好？","接下來請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163346","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163346","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d503fabf0aee9faf619614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f59aab6c45daf424f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:31:32 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謝謝主席我們先請這個速發部的這個好 速發部切正事好好 遲早"},{"start":14.826,"end":41.498,"text":"大家都很關心有關於台灣這個通信、任信的問題那其實在這次風災,不論是丹納斯風災或是說這次的南部的豪大雨其實都受到嚴格的一個挑戰那這個是當然在7月22號的報導丹納斯颱風過了之後的災後的16天那仍然在這個七股、布袋、台南還有嘉義這些地區還有地方成為這個通訊的孤島"},{"start":43.819,"end":58.744,"text":"那這個NCC那邊也說過說 那這個基地台已經有修復了但是災區為何還有通訊的問題 他還要去了解那我相信這是災後第16天 那我們看一下按照你們這個今天給的這個數據 到7月31號通訊設備還有設備的這個修復的情況"},{"start":63.985,"end":76.458,"text":"那我請問一下 除了速發部還有這個NCC代理主委 回答一下那這個是到7月31號 不論是試劃 寬頻 MOD 行動基地台 電信桿等等那何時能夠完全修復咧"},{"start":79.632,"end":102.827,"text":"委員報告這塊涉及到業者的修復能量因為近期業者也有持續在努力近期因為部分有水災所以有些出動的工班人力當地區恐怕受到一點影響那以中華電信的話他們市化部分他們是預計大概在8月15左右可以大部分的完成那其他的電信業者勒"},{"start":104.082,"end":124.796,"text":"其他電線主要是以行動行動的部分其實是恢復目前大概恢復到90%以上的涵蓋那涵蓋不足災前部分會用旁邊的天線調整角度跟行動車來去彌補所以行動部分其實比過往部分要容易來修復市化跟寬頻是可以在8月15號以這個目標來領略"},{"start":129.332,"end":149.37,"text":"這個齁已經災後到現在那大概如果到8月15號已經接近快一個半月了所以你就知道說萬一啦齁這個還沒有到這一個所謂的這個戰爭的考驗但是光是風災的給我們的考驗就讓我們大家想說這個未來未來如果說這一個不論是這一個這些風災"},{"start":150.991,"end":180.226,"text":"甚至地震造成這些影響對我們這個通信設備通信的韌性的確會造成很大的影響我接下來就請一下次長因為其實我看這個速發部一直有在強調這一個通訊網路的這個韌性那也一直提到說我們有所謂的這一個低軌的衛星中軌的衛星然後你們在去年的九月的時候也在你們的這一個粉絲團有講說這個現在全台都可以收到速發部所推動的非同步軌道衛星"},{"start":180.726,"end":193.476,"text":"所以如果在這個重大災難的時候呢這個全台除了這個包含離島都可以順暢的使用通訊還有這個線上會議的應用的服務但是很明顯這一次的這個風災裡面這整個整個破供啦"},{"start":199.584,"end":227.511,"text":"這到底是哪裡是造成這個原因這個是你們去年跟我們大家講的萬一你遇到風災了你遇到這些情況了因為我們有低軌衛星因為我們有中軌衛星那所以我們通訊不會受到影響跟我們報告就是說這一次去參與救災的五十幾台這個行動經濟台裡面有三十台是配備低軌衛星只有三十台現在全台灣只有三十台配備這個低軌衛星的這個接收器嗎"},{"start":229.09,"end":232.252,"text":"配備接收器的行動通訊車只有30台這很明顯不夠啊那你們有想到說會造成這種情況嗎"},{"start":240.633,"end":265.174,"text":"跟我們報告就是說去年地震的時候我只有一台那地震的時候的檢討是花蓮那個地震那花蓮那個是局部的那我們就檢討說那時候只有一台但是我必須8個小時才能夠從高雄把車開過去所以我們才建了30台就是在全台灣根據災害應變中心的分區每一區有幾台那30台顯見也不夠嘛"},{"start":266.851,"end":291.391,"text":"對 這個只能針對點就是說你任何的行動通訊車它能夠處理的範圍都是點因為行動通訊車的天線高度不夠按照這次的風災的情況來講30台明顯不夠那你認為大概要幾台才能夠確保這次的通訊不中斷我們過去是有規劃一份五年要增加到2500個Terminal的計畫長程的計畫是這樣規劃2500個什麼的計畫2500個接收器接收器 那車子咧"},{"start":297.576,"end":325.891,"text":"車子沒有規劃在裡面那你有接收器沒有車子那目前我們在下一期的前瞻計畫每一家業者會再增加3台車子然後我會把原來的原來90幾台車子會補助他先把衛星的支架還有衛星的相關設備先裝好那所以今年年底你可以預計可以增加到幾台呢今年年底車子會增加9台然後改裝好的車子會增加大概30台"},{"start":328.764,"end":342.542,"text":"31台所以加起來我們才80幾台我問你80幾台的話如果這次的風災我們有80幾台的話確保它通訊不中斷嗎不可能那所以沒有用嗎"},{"start":344.773,"end":365.291,"text":"那你認為要幾台我們先不要管預算你認為要幾台我要講的就是說車子不可能去補過往當然啊衛星也不可能去補過往但是就是說在你需要它的時候因為你過往你需要多一點時間嘛但是這種行動車的話就比較及時也比較快速那哪邊通訊有問題就可以馬上補上去嘛是"},{"start":366.031,"end":380.535,"text":"對但是面對這種大規模的1260幾台的故障其實應該去找根因那我們找出來的根因就是電力佔40%光纖網路佔50%所以我們馬上調整前瞻計畫就是針對發電機然後還有這些你買發電機也沒有用啊"},{"start":390.598,"end":408.353,"text":"我感覺是每一台車子配發電機嗎不是車子配發電機是發電機要行動發電機要讓這些固定的基地來使用因為我們去分析發現有40%的基站他有網站他有網路但是他沒有電那這時候如果你可以給他小型的發電機他可以多撐多久"},{"start":412.341,"end":437.92,"text":"發電機如果有兩台的話可以輪流開因為那種緊急的發電機都不能持續的一直開所以當你有兩台的時候你輪流開就可以那有油料的時候它就可以撐下去但是這又會牽涉到一個問題就如果那個地方淹水你油送不進去或發電機送不進去就會有問題那你怎麼去解決呢那這個演練都沒有問題我看你們這個去年有演練今年有演練演練都沒有什麼問題但是遇到風災整個就破功啦我們"},{"start":440.629,"end":452.12,"text":"的確就是說我們原來的準備是針對點那現在面對的是屬於大規模的你可能雲林嘉義台南都可能有那未來可能規模有可能在擴大"},{"start":453.996,"end":475.203,"text":"對委員說得非常有道理所以我們其實像上禮拜天我在災害應變中心晚上就是跟內政部劉部長在討論有哪些事情還可以繼續做那很多後續的政策的轉向都是在災害應變中心大家在那邊顧的時候至少這次就很明顯了你就是說發電機的問題"},{"start":476.96,"end":488.754,"text":"過往的問題然後我們行動這個衛星行動車不足的問題這些都是問題這個一次風災出來之後就出現這麼問題主席抱歉我再問最後一個問題剛剛有很多委員問到這個這個網路漫遊的問題那"},{"start":492.899,"end":508.872,"text":"漫遊我看你們這個去年的報告有講到嗎你們說這個漫遊吼也有這個有可以跨越者的漫遊啊也可以災難的漫遊啊還可以一直往路的漫遊啊等等那我問一下這一次這次的風災有哪一項有哪一項有做到了"},{"start":510.765,"end":538.416,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的漫遊是蘇衛部就那個就是特殊時期比方說戰爭時期或者緊急這次風災也是一樣啊那過往的漫遊國內漫遊過往在電信法時期是不許可的那現在的電信管理法有接接災防法是有個空間處理那但是國內沒有沒有這個跨越者漫遊在去年的報告蘇發布報告我就看到了那是POC是概念認證"},{"start":540.458,"end":555.856,"text":"概念認證 那所以咧是什麼意思是技術可行 本來就是技術可行然後真正緊急命令後怎麼樣發布時期本來就可以switch過去 那是沒有問題的那現在是平成時期那所以現在呢 現在正式封災是因為法令的問題沒辦法去使用嗎"},{"start":558.015,"end":576.916,"text":"應該說是過往完全沒有使用過的經驗電信法實際是不許可的那現在有空間電信法不許可那但是技術上許可那現在是誰的問題是電信法的問題要修電信法嗎電信管理法已經有空間了我們明天會開會來爬樹釐青做相關部位像內政部或數位部可以怎麼來協力那這樣也"},{"start":577.597,"end":605.043,"text":"我覺得有點可笑啦就是說技術上可行那我看速發部上面有寫說那災難發生的時候我們一個可以用這個跨越層漫遊你今天中華電信的不行我可以用遠程我可以用這個台灣大哥大結果你現在跟我講說電信法 不行對 蘇衛部那是指說特殊時期假設今天在風災就算是特殊時期啦過往因為就是極端氣候以往沒有預期說會發生這麼大規模以往是點的話大概一般行動機機台開過去都OK了好 那所以現在你們要做什麼樣的法令的修改"},{"start":605.883,"end":626.815,"text":"目前還暫時 等到明天開完會確定確定是哪些東西要補強 那明天開完會才能夠比較清楚那如果萬一啦 下次再發生這種大規模的風災的話跨越者漫遊或戰略漫遊可不可以用我們就是希望建立這個SOP 未來可以用你們 我看你們去年的"},{"start":628.018,"end":655.123,"text":"去年的這個報告裡面就有提到說要建立SOP了啊就去年年底要建立SOP了啊那個都是特殊時期暫停期那個都已經建立好了那風災不算風災因為大規模的風災這個過往是比較沒有這種情況這個會造成民怨我老實講這會造成民怨這個風災更容易比你所謂講那個戰爭的時期更容易遇到啊那結果我們竟然沒有這個SOP對所以我們要建立"},{"start":656.119,"end":666.782,"text":"那所以何時呢?明天開會完成就知道了嗎?明天開完會之後我們會盡快的來處理啦最後我再問一下次長,你們這次這一個業務費有關這一個獎補助費被剩減掉這一個8.2億,對這一次的這個風災有沒有什麼受到影響?"},{"start":678.417,"end":706.248,"text":"跟委員報告就是當然因為整體的計畫進度都會落後比如說剛剛講的低軌衛星的接收器那今年我沒有任何預算可以增加所以我用的就是去年拿到的這700多個那我們手上只有190幾個那為什麼我只剩190幾個因為我付不起這個通訊費所以內政部拿去的跟國防部拿去的要請他自己付"},{"start":707.778,"end":732.266,"text":"所以今年呢今年就沒有增加新的接收器就對了沒有 今年沒有增加新的接收器那這樣怎麼辦 被砍掉的8.2億怎麼辦你們啊 你們這個書面資料給那個昆城委員造成什麼樣的影響 你要跟大家講啊好不好 因為預算這樣 被篡選這樣造成什麼樣的影響要跟大家講啊 好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時31分）謝謝主席，我們先請數發部次長。"],["主席：請數發部闕政次。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。大家都很關心有關於臺灣通訊韌性的問題，其實在這次風災，不論是丹娜絲風災，或是這次南部的豪大雨，其實都受到嚴格的挑戰。這是7月22號的報導，丹娜絲颱風過了之後的災後第16天，仍然在七股、布袋，臺南還有嘉義這些地區，還有部分地方成為通訊的孤島，NCC也說過基地台已經修復了，但是災區為何還有通訊的問題，他還要去了解。這是災後第16天。","我們看一下，按照你們今天給的數據，到7月31號通訊設備還有設備修復的情況。我請問一下，除了數發部還有請NCC代理主委回答一下，這是到7月31號，不論是市話、寬頻、MOD、行動基地台、電信桿等等，何時能夠完全修復？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這一塊涉及到業者的修復能量，因為近期業者也有持續在努力，近期因為部分有水災，所以有些出動的工班人力在當地的區域恐怕受到一點影響。以中華電信的話，他們市話部分，他們是預計大概在8月15日左右大部分可以完成。"],["李委員坤城：那其他的電信業者呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其他電信業主要是以行動基地台，行動的部分，目前大概恢復到90%以上的涵蓋率，那涵蓋不足、災情的部分，都會用旁邊的天線調整角度，跟行動車來去彌補，所以行動部分其實比過往相對要容易來修復。"],["李委員坤城：所以市話跟寬頻是可以在8月15號完成？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：以這個目標來努力。"],["李委員坤城：災後到現在……如果到8月15號已經接近快一個半月了，所以你就知道，萬一啦，這是還沒有到所謂戰爭的考驗，但是光是風災給我們的考驗，就讓我們大家想說，未來不論是這些風災，甚至地震造成這些影響，對我們通訊設備、通訊的韌性，的確會造成很大的影響。","我接下來再請教次長，因為我看數發部一直有在強調通訊網路的韌性，也一直提到我們有低軌的衛星、中軌的衛星，然後，你們在去年9月的時候，也在你們的粉絲團有講說現在全臺都可以收到數發部所推動的非同步軌道衛星，所以如果在重大災難的時候，全臺包含離島都可以順暢的使用通訊，還有線上會議等應用服務。但是很明顯的，這一次的風災裡面，整個破功了啊，到底是什麼原因造成的？這是你們去年跟我們大家講的，萬一遇到風災了、遇到一些情況了，因為我們有低軌衛星、有中軌衛星，所以我們通訊不會受到影響。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，這次去參與救災五十幾臺行動基地台裡面，有30臺是配備低軌衛星。"],["李委員坤城：現在全臺灣只有30臺配備低軌衛星的接收器嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：配備接收器的行動通訊車只有30臺。"],["李委員坤城：只有30臺？"],["闕次長河鳴：對。"],["李委員坤城：這很明顯不夠啊！"],["闕次長河鳴：對，的確是不夠。"],["李委員坤城：那你們有想到這會造成這種情況嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，去年地震的時候，我們只有1臺，地震的時候的檢討……"],["李委員坤城：你是指花蓮那個部分？"],["闕次長河鳴：對。"],["李委員坤城：花蓮那是局部的。"],["闕次長河鳴：對。我們就檢討說，那時候只有1臺，但是我必須8個小時才能夠從高雄把車開過去，所以我們才建了30臺，就是在全臺灣根據災害應變中心的分區，每一區配幾臺。"],["李委員坤城：那30臺顯見也不夠嘛！"],["闕次長河鳴：對，這個只能針對點，就是說任何的行動通訊車，它能夠處理的範圍都是點，因為行動通訊車的天線高度也不夠。"],["李委員坤城：好，次長，就按照這次風災的情況來講，30臺明顯不夠，那你認為大概要幾臺才能夠確保這次的通訊不中斷？"],["闕次長河鳴：我們過去是有規劃一份5年要增加到2,500個terminal的計畫，長程的計畫是這樣規劃。"],["李委員坤城：你說2,500個什麼的計畫？"],["闕次長河鳴：2,500個接收器。"],["李委員坤城：接收器，那車子呢？"],["闕次長河鳴：車子沒有規劃在裡面。"],["李委員坤城：那你有接收器，沒有車子？"],["闕次長河鳴：目前我們在下一期的前瞻計畫，每一家業者會再增加3臺車子，我會把原來的……"],["李委員坤城：才3臺，總共也才39臺啊。"],["闕次長河鳴：原來九十幾臺車子會補助他先把衛星的支架，還有衛星的相關設備先裝好。"],["李委員坤城：把它改裝。所以今年年底你預計可以增加到幾臺？"],["闕次長河鳴：今年年底車子會增加9臺，改裝好的車子會增加31臺。"],["李委員坤城：所以加起來我們才八十幾臺？"],["闕次長河鳴：是。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，我問你，如果這次的風災我們有八十幾臺的話，能確保通訊不中斷嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：不可能。"],["李委員坤城：不可能？那所以沒有用嘛！"],["闕次長河鳴：對。"],["李委員坤城：那你認為要幾臺？我們先不要管預算，你認為要幾臺？"],["闕次長河鳴：我要講的是車子不可能去補固網，衛星也不可能去補固網。"],["李委員坤城：當然啊，但是，在你需要他的時候……因為你固網，你需要多一點時間嘛，但是這種行動車比較即時，也比較快速，哪邊通訊有問題就可以馬上補上去嘛。"],["闕次長河鳴：對，但是面對這種大規模一千二百六十幾臺的故障，其實應該去找根因，我們找出來的根因就是電力占40%、光纖網路占50%，所以我們馬上調整前瞻計畫，就是針對發電機，還有這些……"],["李委員坤城：你買發電機也沒有用啊，你是每一臺車子配發電機嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：不是車子配發電機，是行動發電機要讓這些固定的基地台使用，因為我們去分析發現有40%的基站有網路，但是沒有電，這時候如果你可以給它小型的發電機，它可以多撐……"],["李委員坤城：有發電機可以多撐多久？"],["闕次長河鳴：發電機如果有2臺的話可以輪流開，因為那種緊急的發電機不能持續的一直開，所以當你有2臺的時候，你輪流開、有油料的時候，它就可以撐下去，但是這又會牽涉到一個問題，如果那個地方淹水，你油送不進去或發電機送不進去就會有問題。"],["李委員坤城：那你怎麼去解決呢？演練都沒有問題，我看你們去年有演練，今年也有演練，演練都沒有什麼問題，但是遇到風災整個就破功啦！"],["闕次長河鳴：我們原來的準備是針對點，的確這個……"],["李委員坤城：現在面對的是屬於大規模的，可能雲林、嘉義、臺南都可能有，未來規模也可能再擴大。"],["闕次長河鳴：對，委員說得非常有道理，所以我們其實……像上禮拜天，我在災害應變中心晚上跟內政部劉部長在討論有哪些事情還可以繼續做，很多後續的政策轉向都是在災害應變中心，大家在那邊顧的時候一起去……"],["李委員坤城：至少這次就很明顯，就是發電機的問題、固網的問題、衛星行動車不足的問題，這些都是問題，這一次風災出來之後，就出現這些問題。","主席抱歉，我再問最後一個問題。剛剛有很多委員問到網路漫遊的問題，我看你們去年的報告有講到，漫遊有可以跨業者的漫遊，也可以災難漫遊，還可以一直網路的漫遊等等，我問一下，這次的風災有哪一項做到了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到的漫遊是數發部就特殊時期，比方戰爭時期或緊急命令發布時期的處理……"],["李委員坤城：這次風災也是一樣啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：國內漫遊過往在電信法時期是不許可的，現在的電信管理法有介接災防法是有空間處理，但是國內……"],["李委員坤城：沒有、沒有，這個跨業者漫遊在去年的數發部報告，我就看到了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那是「PoC」，是概念認證。"],["李委員坤城：概念認證？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以是什麼意思？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是技術可行，答案就是技術可行。"],["李委員坤城：技術可行？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：真正緊急命令發布時期本來就可以隨取過去，是沒有問題的。現在是承平時期……"],["李委員坤城：所以這次風災是因為法令的問題沒辦法去使用嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該是說過往完全沒有使用過的經驗，電信法時期是不許可的，現在有空間處理……"],["李委員坤城：電信法不許可，但是技術上許可，現在是誰的問題？若是電信法的問題，要修電信法嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：電信管理法已經有空間了，我們明天會開會來爬梳釐清，就相關部會像內政部或數發部可以怎麼來協力。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得有點可笑啦！就是技術上可行，我看數發部上面有寫災難發生的時候，我們可以用跨業者漫遊，倘若今天中華電信訊號不行，我可以用遠傳、我可以用臺灣大哥大，結果你現在跟我講電信法不行。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：數發部是指特殊時期，假設今天……"],["李委員坤城：風災就是特殊時期啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：過往因為極端氣候，我們以往沒有預期會發生這麼大規模，以往是點的話，大概一般行動基地臺開過去就OK了。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以現在你們要做什麼樣的法令修改？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：目前還暫時……待明天開完會確定，確定是哪些東西要補強？要等明天開完會才能夠比較清楚。"],["李委員坤城：如果萬一啦！下次再發生這種大規模風災的話，跨業者漫遊或災難漫遊可不可以用？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們就是希望建立這個SOP，未來可以用。"],["李委員坤城：還沒有建立？我看你們去年的報告裡就有提到要建立SOP，去年年底要建立SOP啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那個是特殊時期、戰爭時期都已經建立好了，那是數發部的。"],["李委員坤城：風災不算？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：風災因為……"],["李委員坤城：明天才要檢討？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：過往大規模的風災是比較沒有這種情況。"],["李委員坤城：這不行啦！這個會造成民怨，我老實講這會造成民怨，這個風災比你講的那個戰爭時期更容易遇到啊！結果你們竟然沒有這個SOP。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：所以我們要建立。"],["李委員坤城：所以何時？明天開完會就知道了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：明天開完會之後，我們會盡可能儘快的來處理啦！"],["李委員坤城：最後我再問一下次長，你們這次業務費有關獎補助費被刪減掉8.2億，對於這一次的風災，有沒有受到什麼影響？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，當然整體的計畫進度都會落後，比如剛剛講的低軌衛星接收器，今年我們沒有任何預算可以增加，所以我們用的就是去年拿到的這七百多個，我們手上只有一百九十幾個。為什麼只剩一百九十幾個？因為我們付不起這個通訊費，所以內政部跟國防部拿去的，要請他們自己付。"],["李委員坤城：所以今年呢？今年就沒有增加新的接收器就對了？"],["闕次長河鳴：沒有，今年沒有增加新的接收器。"],["李委員坤城：這樣怎麼辦？被砍掉的8.2億怎麼辦？"],["主席：你們把書面資料提供給坤城委員，好不好？"],["李委員坤城：造成什麼樣的影響，你們要跟大家講啦，好不好？預算被刪成這樣，造成什麼樣影響？要跟大家講啦，好不好？"],["闕次長河鳴：好，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝坤城委員的質詢。","現在請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d501ae1c333a8bc7d3a614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f5dff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:21:41 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謝謝主席 主席先請肅發部缺次長好 肅發部缺政次"},{"start":15.256,"end":38.041,"text":"好 次長好本席在5月28日的時候有向NCC質詢過5G支費過高的問題當時NCC的陳代理主委主委他表示補助業者建置5G的基地台是速發部的責任所以今天要藉著這個機會向次長釐清一些問題先請部長簡單的說明一下有關速發部的5G業務有哪一些速發部的5G業務主要的作業"},{"start":47.611,"end":52.776,"text":"112年到113年呢那我們已經持續補助電信業者建了15622台5G基地台"},{"start":57.352,"end":85.889,"text":"那一二年到一一三年呢這總的金額大概是六十七億那接下來也會針對這一個機場港口火車站大眾交通樞紐及人口密集處加速進行那再請教市長一個更基本的問題那請問現在電信業者協調5G支費是組織的單位是在哪裡是速發部還是NCC5G的支費是NCC那主席有請NCC陳代理主委那個陳代理主委"},{"start":90.697,"end":114.925,"text":"跟委員報告現在自費部分因為現在已經進入已經是相對的相當於這個完全競爭所以這邊大概零售價我們目前是基本上是沒有在管中間價格我們在討論自費之前那我先要講的是一個預算高達200多億的計畫因為部會交接所以現在權責不清不楚的我們先來看到2021年1月1號的時候NCC開始推動5G"},{"start":116.585,"end":139.777,"text":"補助5G網路建設的計畫那我們看到當時的主管機關就是NCC那請問主委你們當時編列的預算是多少因為就是整個前章後來是後來會分家是因為數位不成立之後那當時編列了多少預算編列了多少我印象中好像是蠻高的當年度是第一期是154億"},{"start":142.148,"end":160.84,"text":"那到了2022年8月27號 速發部正式成立後NCC就把這個業務移交到速發部嘛那請教薛次長 您知道速發部接手之後這個案子你們編列了多少預算嗎我們前瞻第四期是67億4400萬然後第五期就是今年下半年是26億3250萬"},{"start":163.41,"end":178.662,"text":"那本席看到這邊是93.8億那主委我上次有請教過您5G基地台建設的問題你說是數巴布他是業務主管嘛那我們看到這個計畫的預算整個計畫的經費是218.7億那其中NCC編列了154億那佔了整體的62%那這代表什麼"},{"start":185.959,"end":211.358,"text":"是當年推114年後來我們執行完畢那後續因為組織改制蔣輔助的權責落在速發部所以後續的第四期第五期的前瞻計畫都有數二部在執行那這個計畫最一剛開始最主要的執行者是在哪一個單位NCC所以就是你們NCC啊那你怎麼把自己當取外人那時候推給速發部以時間來看的話現在權責不在NCC這邊"},{"start":212.419,"end":230.625,"text":"現在不在NCC那2021年到現在政府已經砸了248億了那補助電信業者覆蓋5G的基地台那現在民眾最有感的不是訊號變強速度變快而是5G的支費怎麼那麼貴那我們看到NCC的統計第一季的行動通訊市場的資料那全國5G的用戶有1062萬戶那4G用戶有1817萬戶"},{"start":236.407,"end":252.282,"text":"那推的5G到現在已經整整5年了兩者的差距高達755萬戶那這個補助業者的5G基地來的計畫花了248億那200多億砸下來結果民眾還是用4G那這個成績NCC跟速發部你們滿意嗎"},{"start":254.014,"end":276.702,"text":"這邊是商業市場但是因為5G的目前最大的缺乏就是它的關鍵的應用所謂的Killer Application這一塊目前全球目前都比較在用戶端的Killer Application目前相對比較沒有出現所以這邊它跟4G並存的時間會拖比較久會拖比較久"},{"start":278.26,"end":299.972,"text":"那剛剛您應該也有聽到蔡議員委員提到目前在災區4G的訊號跟5G的訊號5G的訊號大概是兩格那我們也希望5G可以普及化那現在主委您知道現在5G不限速吃到飽是多少錢嗎一般就是這邊講的一千多塊1399嗎 剛才蔡議員說1399跟599他們訊號的差別在哪裡那三大電信的4G吃到飽呢大概都499 599左右"},{"start":308.877,"end":320.828,"text":"是99599那也就是說這個他價差幾乎是兩倍那本席認為5G他不限速吃到飽的費率過高也是消費者他觀望的原因之一那你們花了248億然後再補助電信業者"},{"start":323.951,"end":342.4,"text":"至這個5G的基地台那結果費率一樣那麼貴那用戶也沒有增加那使用5G的民眾他們對5G的評價也不是很好那我相信這也是很多4G的用戶他們不轉5G的原因那到今天為止主委跟次長那這個200多月預算不如預期你們有沒有要檢討"},{"start":345.88,"end":365.766,"text":"這個我們持續都有在關注這個議題那也請業者自發性的看看有沒有提出一個5G的應用目前業者在土壁那一端大概推出有很多契約端的契約端土壁的一些方案來處理那土稀的部分大概就是要看是比較全球性的全球性的一些"},{"start":366.366,"end":388.842,"text":"比較關鍵是能夠滲透率比較高的應用目前大概還在全球都還在等待這個比較特殊比較好的方案來出現但是業者端來促進這些結合AI的應用那些業者 商家業者都有很積極在努力所以主委您是說就是NCC是目前主則費率是在NCC沒有錯吧"},{"start":390.18,"end":418.709,"text":"這一個管制是在NCC沒錯所以你們不去跟業者做溝通嗎有都有溝通那上一次溝通是什麼時候其實我們其實在五月的時候有向您提問過嘛也跟你討論過資費過高的問題那你們之後有去跟業者討論嗎其實我們會有個X值計畫那些大概每年都會找業者來開會討論因為但是四年一次訂然後都會公共式檢討大概都會中間價格那一部分的我們都有跟業者大概"},{"start":418.729,"end":444.162,"text":"我跟您確認,你說四年檢討一次嗎?那X值是四年檢討一次但是其他的...所以最近一次檢討是在什麼時候?大概應該是兩年前已經是兩年前了在今年五月的時候向您提出,那目前業者的說法是什麼?目前就是因為我們那個時期是會有聯動這個物價指數所以那一塊其實是有滾動式在處理的"},{"start":445.495,"end":459.774,"text":"上一次滾動式 你們滾動式檢討那最近一次是在什麼時候我們SGB公告還是一樣在兩年前嗎公告是應該是兩年前但是持續的一些價格調所以你根本就沒有去找業者做溝通嘛"},{"start":461.206,"end":478.005,"text":"因為我們還有界定市場業者給你們的說法是什麼三大電信業者目前5G的使用戶數然後還有費率的問題這個問題包括我剛剛講說5G的部分他們會持續在推他的應用那"},{"start":479.798,"end":490.887,"text":"支費的部分大概從4G、3G以後大概都是跟全世界接軌都是管中間價格零售價格大概我們都是讓業者來商業自由競爭"},{"start":493.518,"end":515.61,"text":"主委知道您這樣說下來那5G的普及跟實現智慧生活只是空話嗎因為你們是主責單位啊沒有其實就是當初在業者開台的時候我們有行政指導他們說要能夠加惠消費者那在合併案的時候那兩家也有提出一些相對應的一些優惠方案"},{"start":517.196,"end":539.757,"text":"但是我們認為說市場沒有失靈的情況之下他會充分進展化業者大概都會提出一個吸引客戶的一些方案那1399是所謂的排告價其實有很多是他們有些綁約長期大客戶等等都會那實際的價格其實是有空間在處理那你覺得下一次檢討的時候是什麼時候下一次"},{"start":542.62,"end":571.206,"text":"因為是 若是X值的話是四年一次若是兩年前 那下一次就是屆滿前一年就會討論其實明年 今年就會再討論OK好 那最後這一次丹大師的風災嘛造成台南還有嘉義的災情嚴重那不只是災區那本席也要向抒發部還有向NCC這邊提出那不只是災區那桃園的復興山區最近也有很多民眾反映訊號不佳再請抒發部還有NCC來做瞭解"},{"start":571.887,"end":576.185,"text":"好 我們會請業者來加速改進OK 好 謝謝主委謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時21分）謝謝主席。先請數發部闕次長。"],["主席：數發部闕政次。"],["邱委員若華：次長好。本席在5月28日的時候有向NCC質詢過5G資費過高的問題，當時NCC的陳代理主委表示，補助業者建置5G基地臺是數發部的責任。所以今天要藉著這個機會，向次長釐清一些問題，先請次長簡單說明一下，有關數發部的5G業務有哪一些？"],["闕次長河鳴：112年到113年，我們已經持續補助電信業者建了1萬5,622臺5G基地臺，112年到113年總金額大概是67億，接下來也會針對機場、港口、火車站，大眾交通樞紐及人口密集處加速進行。"],["邱委員若華：再請教次長一個更基本的問題，請問現在協調電信業者5G資費主責的單位是在哪裡？是數發部還是NCC？"],["闕次長河鳴：5G的資費是NCC。"],["邱委員若華：主席，有請NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：陳代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，有關資費部分，因為現在已經是相當於完全競爭，所以零售價我們目前基本上是沒有在管，不管中間的價格。"],["邱委員若華：主委，在討論資費之前，我先要講的是一個預算高達二百多億的計畫，因為部會交接，所以現在權責不清不楚的，我們先看到2021年1月1號的時候，NCC開始推動5G補助，補助5G網路建設的計畫，我們看到當時的主管機關就是NCC，請問主委，你們當時編列的預算是多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為這是整個前瞻的，後來會分家是因為數位部成立之後……"],["邱委員若華：那當時編列了多少？預算編列了多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我印象中好像是滿高的，當年度第一期是154億。"],["邱委員若華：到了2022年8月27號數發部正式成立後，NCC就把這個業務移交到數發部嘛，請教闕次長，您知道數發部接手之後，這個案子你們編列了多少預算嗎？"],["闕次長河鳴：我們前瞻第四期是67億4,400萬，然後第五期就是今年下半年，是26億3,250萬。"],["邱委員若華：本席看到是93.8億，主委，我上次有請教過您5G基地臺建置的問題，你說數發部是業務主管，我們看到這個計畫的預算，整個計畫的經費是218.7億，其中NCC編列了154億，占了整體的62%，這代表什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是當年度110年後來我們已經執行完畢，後續因為組織改制獎補助的權責落在數發部，所以後續第四期、第五期的前瞻計畫都由數位部在執行。"],["邱委員若華：這個計畫一剛開始，最主要的執行者是在哪一個單位？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：NCC。"],["邱委員若華：所以就是你們NCC啊！你怎麼把自己當局外人？那時候推給數發部。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，以時間來看的話，現在權責不在NCC這邊。"],["邱委員若華：現在不在NCC，2021年到現在政府已經砸了248億補助電信業者覆蓋5G的基地臺，現在民眾最有感的不是訊號變強、速度變快，而是5G的資費怎麼那麼貴。我們看到NCC統計第一季行動通訊市場的資料，全國5G的用戶有1,062萬戶，4G用戶有1,817萬戶左右，推動5G到現在已經整整五年了，兩者的差距高達755萬戶。這個補助業者5G基地臺的計畫花了248億，二百多億砸下來，結果民眾還是用4G，這個成績NCC跟數發部，你們滿意嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分是商業市場，因為5G目前最大的缺乏就是它關鍵的應用，所謂的Killer application這一塊，全球目前在用戶端的Killer application相對比較沒有出現，所以它跟4G並存的時間會拖比較久。"],["邱委員若華：會拖比較久，剛剛您應該也有聽到蔡易餘委員提到目前在災區4G的訊號跟5G的訊號，5G的訊號大概是兩格嘛，我們也希望5G可以普及化。主委您知道現在5G不限速吃到飽是多少錢嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一般就是這邊講的一千多塊。"],["邱委員若華：1,399嘛，剛剛蔡易餘委員說1399跟599，他們訊號的差別在哪裡，那三大電信的4G吃到飽呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：大概都499、599左右。"],["邱委員若華：也就是說價差幾乎是兩倍，本席認為5G不限速吃到飽的費率過高，也是消費者觀望的原因之一，你們花了248億在補助電信業者建置5G的基地臺，結果費率一樣那麼貴，用戶也沒有增加，使用5G的民眾他們對5G的評價也不是很好，我相信這也是很多4G用戶不轉5G的原因。到今天為止，主委跟次長，二百多億的預算不如預期，你們有沒有要檢討？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們持續都有在關注這個議題，也請業者自發性的看看能不能提出一個5G的應用。目前業者在2B（to-Business）那一端，大概推出很多企業端2B的一些方案來處理；2C（to-Consumer）的部分，大概就是要看比較全球性的，一些比較關鍵性能夠滲透率比較高的應用，目前全球大概都還在等待比較好的方案出現，但是業者端來促進這些結合AI的應用，三家業者都很積極在努力。"],["邱委員若華：所以主委，您是說目前主責費率是在NCC，沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：費率的管制是在NCC沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：那你們不去跟業者溝通嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，都有溝通。"],["邱委員若華：上一次溝通是什麼時候？本席在5月的時候有向您提問過嘛，也跟你討論過資費過高的問題，你們之後有去跟業者討論嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實我們會有一個X值計畫，大概每年都會找業者來開會討論，因為四年一次，定了都會滾動式檢討，中間價格那一部分，我們都有跟業者在……"],["邱委員若華：跟您確認，你說四年檢討一次嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：X值是四年檢討一次，但是其他的……"],["邱委員若華：所以最近一次檢討是在什麼時候？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：大概應該是兩年前。"],["邱委員若華：已經是兩年前了……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：但是會持續。"],["邱委員若華：在今年5月的時候向您提出，目前業者的說法是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是因為我們那時會連動物價指數，所以那一塊其實是有滾動式在處理的。"],["邱委員若華：你們的滾動式檢討最近一次是在什麼時候？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們X值公告……"],["邱委員若華：還是一樣在兩年前嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：公告應該是兩年前，但是持續一些中間價格的調整……"],["邱委員若華：所以你根本就沒有去找業者做溝通嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，因為我們還有界定市場，界定市場我會跟……"],["邱委員若華：業者給你們的說法是什麼？三大電信業者對於目前5G的使用戶數，然後還有費率的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這跟委員報告，就剛剛所講5G的部分他們會持續在推它的應用，至於資費的部分，大概從4G、3G以後都是跟全世界接軌，都是管中間價格，零售價格大概我們都是讓業者來商業自由競爭。"],["邱委員若華：主委，照您這樣說下來，5G普及跟實現智慧生活只是空話嗎？因為你們是主責單位啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，其實當初在業者開臺的時候，我們有行政指導他們說要嘉惠消費者，在合併案的時候，兩家也有提出相對應的一些優惠方案，但是我們是認為說市場沒有失靈的情況之下，他們會充分競爭的話，業者大概都會提出吸引客戶的一些方案，1399是所謂的牌告價，其實很多是他們一些綁約、長期大客戶等等，實際的價格其實是有空間再處理的。"],["邱委員若華：主委，下一次檢討是什麼時候？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果是X值的話是四年一次，上次如果是兩年前，下一次就是屆滿前一年就會討論，其實明年或今年就會再討論。"],["邱委員若華：OK。最後，這一次丹娜斯風災造成臺南還有嘉義的災情嚴重，不只是災區，本席也要向數發部還有NCC提出一件事，不只是災區，桃園復興山區最近也有很多民眾反應訊號不佳，再請數發部還有NCC來了解。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們會請業者來加速改進。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員的質詢。","現在請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d500915602ab93c0751614178be66146618b23a4874ffcc87f59b03abd11ba7a7725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:08:59 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我想救災啊說實在的是仰邊千日用在意識天災的問題說實在無法之抵抗但是問題出來就是要解決救災啊如同救命所以生命啊為重就不要像說實在的賴總統過去在當"},{"start":69.192,"end":83.344,"text":"台南有震災的時候他非常認真我上電視我都稱讚他可是這次當總統以後他的救災這個基本精神我是對他有意見的"},{"start":84.246,"end":109.613,"text":"第一個金人不能進去什麼民房啦還有你自己爬啦還有一些說實話某些人電話可以通難道他這麼這麼外行嗎所以我是覺得這樣啦我是覺得這樣救災是大家基本上一定要做的事人民受苦受難天災他都無法抵抗"},{"start":110.595,"end":122.865,"text":"可是天災也不是你們叫他這樣做所以責怪誰都不公平但是我剛剛為什麼要倚重心長的要跟兩位所長建議說實在 預算無關啊"},{"start":126.332,"end":146.668,"text":"斷信是事實要怎麼樣來彌補我們的缺失我相信大家都不願意看到這樣啊可是我們就是未以籌謀如何改進這是非常重要的所以我的主題也是很簡單我們也知道"},{"start":148.001,"end":165.305,"text":"不管是台電不管是中華電信不管是NCC或者我們數位部大家都很辛苦啊可是在這個部分我要跟王主任特別特別建議行政院有這個組織其實你們就是一定要橫向聯繫要來統籌當然我們有派陳那個"},{"start":173.167,"end":189.806,"text":"曾經的主委啊去做橫向聯繫但是說實在的這麼大的天災說實在有時候行政院長要出面有時候你們辦公室要去做橫向聯繫好那我特別啊就災後現在斷信的問題我剛剛也聽了"},{"start":194.707,"end":210.015,"text":"我們所有立法院的同仁啊大家都非常關心所以這個斷信是一個事實可是未來面對極端氣候這些斷信不是只有這一次喔所以現在沒有怪誰的問題"},{"start":211.676,"end":240.348,"text":"未來如何去面對這是很重要啊也是立法委員所啟齊的也是我們每一個政務官各部會都一定要去面對啊所以我還是希望啊當然在這個部分來下一張我們看啦像這些東西我們也沒有在指責台電我們也沒有在指責任何啊可以看得出來這都是危險動作搶救一定要建立SOP"},{"start":241.331,"end":245.926,"text":"不管數位部 不管是NCC你們的SOP到底是什麼呀"},{"start":247.236,"end":273.516,"text":"當然救災有一定的規則有一定的規定但是SOP真的要去建立極端氣候之下不是只有這一次未來會更嚴重所以這個部分我還是要亡羊補牢 啟席各單位要提出這個SOP的建立這次的缺點是下一次的優點這才是真正的啊好 下一張"},{"start":275.424,"end":288.655,"text":"有沒有可能跟主委跟數位部來研究啦因為當然我們現在除了我們前瞻計畫有在補助這些衛星車的公有化這是很重要的"},{"start":289.522,"end":314.14,"text":"不是只有補助 那這個衛星公有化一定要去推 為什麼一定要去推衛星就遇到困難 斷信的時候 一定要去支援那我相信我們不管是嘉義啊 雲林啊 或者台南等等這些立法委員當然都有在協調這些可是如果你沒有公有化的時候"},{"start":314.901,"end":326.577,"text":"那確確實實在這個部分是我們中華電信沒有問題但是其他民營的這些電信公司他的配額度"},{"start":327.967,"end":353.91,"text":"不積極或者他的配合度不高的時候就會產生這些衛星車衛星車會凌亂無法去調試所以如果衛星車如果公有化的時候這是對我們這些斷信是有所幫助所以我本席提供這些給數位部給NCC來做參考來下一張"},{"start":356.798,"end":374.22,"text":"這個斷信我們今天委員也談了很多就那個漫遊說實在你想一想到他到國外就有辦法去借這種別的基地台他都有辦法漫遊可是我聽起來今天就是技術沒有問題"},{"start":375.848,"end":392.891,"text":"但是認證是有問題可是主委陳主委你也不是說故意不認證過去沒有這個事可是現在法規確實是有不足的地方那這些東西我本席比較建議的就是"},{"start":393.672,"end":419.559,"text":"今天是災害是法令要先擺在後面因為救災救命是最重要所以這個部分我還要建議我們陳主委啊也就是這個部分要突破法令的障礙盡快在危急的時候使用對這個案子比較有利因為我聽起來簡董事長已經講得很清楚"},{"start":420.539,"end":441,"text":"這些是沒有問題那這一次電信公司也是中華電信那中華電信你也知道民營都是跟我們租台嘛租往整個線路嘛所以在這個部分應該在救災的時候要發揮很大的功能也就是所有的東西要"},{"start":442.271,"end":454.791,"text":"統一來做這個動作所以我要拜託我們陳楚維在這個部分漫遊的部分儘快因為你明天要開會嘛所以要把這些法令不足"},{"start":455.936,"end":468.731,"text":"用其他去把它解決掉所謂的其他修華未做但是有其他特殊情況你們就可以去做這樣的問題不是錢的問題技術也沒有問題當然法規有問題這個漫遊可以解決"},{"start":473.736,"end":485.507,"text":"這些救命的幾分鐘我是覺得這個部分還是要建議我們主委在這個部分主委你說明天要開會你是抱著什麼態度給你一個時間"},{"start":486.616,"end":507.614,"text":"我是抱持著為建立一套未來要適用的一個SOP跟長治久安的一個通案的機制那包括因為這個在電信管理法或者在網法這一塊的空間這一塊的機制過往完全沒有處理沒有操作過所以明天要找內政部跟數位部來一起來討論"},{"start":511.296,"end":527.29,"text":"主委你雖然是代理啦但是這段時間我還是較為認為你是比較稱職你是沒有顏色之分只是對NCC業務對跟錯這樣來執行所以這個部分我還是要特別"},{"start":528.848,"end":556.076,"text":"請主委你要把你的NCC獨立主委的這些精神去把它統合起來去把它做好認證的問題我相信不是問題應該是不是問題所以這個部分陳主委我還是要勉勵你不要在那邊推沒有意思因為未來一定會面對來最後一個我還是還是要建議也就是我們基地台的問題"},{"start":557.836,"end":572.722,"text":"這個檢董有很多技術性的問題你要提供給主管機關包括數位部包括我們陳主委這裡也就是基地台要有公有建的基地台的概念"},{"start":573.547,"end":601.203,"text":"不要中華電信自己設計因為中華電信本來你們是有衛星啊當然賴總統講的郭國文可以接得到啊但是其他人沒有辦法接得到啊因為其他民營他是以商業行為為主能夠不投資他就不投資可是我們中華電信不一樣啊所以有沒有可能基地台也有一種共有共有的這種概念"},{"start":602.003,"end":624.154,"text":"如果是這樣的話對於整個收信是有幫助的啊是有幫助 所以這一點我還要特別建議還有一點可能提供給三個單位做一個參考第一個從我們的這些設計的覆蓋率也就是越來越少越來越少 下一張越來越少申請案件"},{"start":628.809,"end":646.924,"text":"人家有些是客戶啊 這些品質很重要啊所以你們應該要每一年設計越來越多啊可是你看喔 每一年從107年這麼多 到去年兩年欸 設置越來越少 那就很奇怪啦"},{"start":647.845,"end":676.032,"text":"那為什麼品質會越來越差呢所以為什麼山上他接不到民間機構民間電信他接不到只有中華電信可以接得到所以這個部分我還是要建議為什麼會暴跌所以我還是希望我們三個單位要注意這些因為最後我還是要勉勵這個天災人命非常重要"},{"start":676.952,"end":702.344,"text":"沒有那個斷信 確確實實沒水沒電 然後沒有信息這是很痛苦的未來我們三基在整個台灣裡面三天都沒有電 三天都沒有陰性就如同孤島是非常可怕的所以我還是希望陳主委還有我們這個切正智你們不要以為你們兩個單位"},{"start":704.093,"end":733.012,"text":"沒有什麼事你們兩個單位非常重要因為整個三基整個通信的部分都是你們兩個單位在負責所以我還是希望兩個單位要特別積極一下中華電信是我們台灣通信主要的一個這個我們民間國營投資的東西所以我要拜託這個事情刻不容緩盡快找出一個未來未以籌謀的問題"},{"start":734.475,"end":738.009,"text":"好不好 三位可以嗎可以 我要繼續努力好 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這個韌性的問題就是說一旦台電電感斷掉"},{"start":106.394,"end":135.413,"text":"那電力無法供應的時候跟著信號也沒有所以很多人會開始很多村民哀嚎說我們彷彿在孤島我們完全沒有辦法對外聯絡所以我想要請教就是說我們之前有協商跟中華電信NCC也有在場我們有講過為了強化國家的韌性是不是未來中華電信不只是中華電信電信公司的基地台是不是跟台電在每一個鄉鎮"},{"start":136.735,"end":148.257,"text":"的建築物的台電的據點是不是要有所聯動因為台電的據點儘管應該有基地台這件事應該兩個單位都在這裡這個件事可以落實吧"},{"start":150.232,"end":176.102,"text":"這個有在跟台電的接觸那中華電信這方面也是進行更積極他們既有就有在跟台電在合作那剛剛董事長也有在先前的說明也提到說有跟台電進一步的合作的在洽談當中那台電這邊未來你們跟中華電信之間至少穩住台電的據點就是一個有訊號的地方"},{"start":179.012,"end":199.673,"text":"這個事情在發生的當下其實在台南跟嘉義台電的那個機房那個地方事實上我們已經有現成這家那對未來應該有280個主要的這個地點會再跟台電這邊看怎麼樣來增加這個基地台對這是未來應該要去強化的嘛"},{"start":200.774,"end":209.34,"text":"委員我報告一下第一個我們現在台電跟那個中華電信目前合作了有18個地方然後呢這幾天中華電信他目前我們之間的協調他有拋出大概有280幾個"},{"start":218.146,"end":245.054,"text":"據點那這些據點因為受制於地形跟地霧的關係所以後續我們會繼續會勘會勘完了以後看看我們這邊是不是可以增強我們的這整個電信的覆蓋率所以這一部分我們也現在正在進行中這部分你們應該就再好好去溝通因為災害發生前三天這個我想你們都知道啦縱使這個行動衛星車到了現場沒有辦法增加信號為什麼雲層太厚了"},{"start":247.855,"end":273.076,"text":"連要打到低軌衛星都被這麼厚的雲層給擋住了所以碩本歸原還是傳統的基地台 以柯林只要不要又被17級風吹倒 它也是相對比較勇而且信號的提供也相對穩定那我現在跟中華電力還有一點要確認就是說事實上現在已復原的狀況大概手機的信號我電話電信我要額外啦 啊這次在下的時候"},{"start":276.406,"end":295.412,"text":"是真正的災區啦 師聖中華電信還有撐住啦599的大概一格啦1399的還有棟崖都有兩格啦一格就很難開 不然這就要看訊息啦檢訊息要看得到 剩下兩家都是全掛掉啦所以中華電信在這一點 事實上在"},{"start":296.392,"end":312.481,"text":"災害發生的時候看起來表現有比兩家電信公司還要來得強但是我們現在看到的就是家用的電話因為我們這裡整個很多老人他還是要用家用電話可是家用電話看起來他整個復原還是遙遙無期那這部分"},{"start":313.201,"end":328.977,"text":"市長我幫你報告因為那個四化保溫光我這裡出去要一戶一戶現在在自己還有700多戶還沒有復原整個台南加起來台南加一加起來差不多一萬兩千多戶現在只剩下"},{"start":330.859,"end":337.086,"text":"差不多兩千八百戶那嘉義這邊有七百萬七百萬但是這兩天淹水又超過七百多所以要超過一千五百一千五百天氣好的話我們施工能量可以到五百到一千看天氣狀況所以可能如果天氣好又幾十天"},{"start":350.28,"end":353.962,"text":"現在公辦整個七月我們那裡風災丸水災事實上公辦都很辛苦確實居民也會有這樣的需求所以我想中華電信科領的百萬在"},{"start":367.31,"end":384.897,"text":"多出一點力量因為我們除了台南嘉義的部分我們都從各縣市調公班都盡量把公班調去那裡但是因為其他管區要維持最基本的人力因為沒有東西也要派所以董事長那裡公班的權力你也是要擔責有加班的 有來災區到三天 比較辛苦的我覺得這都要讓他們比較多的獎勵"},{"start":391.639,"end":399.922,"text":"在災區工作是真的很辛苦而且很多事實上都是超時工作所以對於各縣市調過來或是說我們有一些多寶箱的就會特別留意這部分的東西對 他們來這裡災區討人道謝都是說我們感謝就不會負了就託過你們 託過你們就給他們照顧一下好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":610,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時1分）謝謝主席。是不是請數發部次長？"],["主席：數發部闕政次。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：NCC陳主委。"],["蔡委員易餘：還有中華電信的簡董事長。"],["主席：中華電信簡董事長。"],["蔡委員易餘：台電的副總。"],["主席：台電的許副總。"],["闕次長河鳴：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：各位長官，這一次丹娜絲颱風從嘉義布袋登陸，事實上嘉義的海區算起來是丹娜絲最嚴重的災區，我們那邊倒掉的電桿，我記得在第十天的時候公布是一千七百多根，這還不包括中華電信的電信桿，或者是一些路燈，所以包括後續台電的電桿恢復跟中華電信的整個作業，那十天真的是很辛苦，我們在第一線都看到了，不管是台電的維修人員、中華電信維修人員，尤其像中華電信在第一天開始後也有調了很多電信車。但是我們也從這一次這樣一個災害，因為這個颱風是全面性的，我們義竹、布袋那裡有幾個村莊，你甚至去那個村莊現在看到的每一支電線桿和電信桿都是全新的，因為舊的都斷了。可是我們也看到了一些國家電力跟電信的韌性問題，這兩個韌性的問題就是，一旦台電電桿斷掉，電力無法供應的時候，哇！跟著訊號也沒有了，所以很多村民會開始哀號說，我們彷彿在孤島，我們完全沒有辦法對外聯絡。","所以我想要請教，我們之前跟中華電信有協商，NCC也有在場，我們有講過，為了強化國家的韌性，未來不只是中華電信，所有電信公司的基地臺是不是跟台電在每一個鄉鎮的台電據點要有所連動？就是台電的據點上面應該要有基地臺這件事，兩個單位都在這裡，這件事可以落實吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這個有在跟台電接觸，中華電信這方面也進行得更積極，他們既有就跟台電在合作，剛剛董事長也有在先前的說明裡提到，有跟台電進一步合作洽談當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：台電這邊未來跟中華電信之間，至少穩住台電的據點就是一個有訊號的地方。"],["簡董事長志誠：跟委員報告，這個事情在發生的當下，在臺南跟嘉義台電機房那個地方，事實上我們已經有去現場加，未來應該有280個主要的地點會再跟台電這邊看怎麼樣增加基地臺。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，這是未來應該要去強化的。"],["許副總經理國隆：委員，我報告一下，第一個，台電跟中華電信目前合作的有18個地方，然後這幾天我們和中華電信之間協調，它有拋出大概二百八十幾個據點，這些據點因為受制於地形跟地物的關係，所以後續我們會繼續會勘，會勘完了以後，看看我們這邊是不是可以增強整個電信的覆蓋率，所以這一部分我們現在也正在進行中。"],["蔡委員易餘：這部分你們應該再好好去溝通。"],["許副總經理國隆：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為災害發生前三天，我想你們也都知道，縱使行動衛星車到了現場，也是沒有辦法增加訊號，為什麼？雲層太厚了！連要打到低軌衛星，都被那麼厚的雲層給擋住了。所以溯本追源還是傳統的基地臺，只要不要又被17級風吹倒，它相對還是比較堅固，而且訊號的提供也相對穩定。","我現在跟中華電信還有一點要確認，現在已復原的狀況，大概手機的訊號，我要誇獎中華電信，這次災害真正的災區只剩中華電信還有撐住，599的大概是一格，1399的還有撐到兩格，雖然一格就很難打通了，不過至少還看得到訊息，簡訊還看得到，剩下兩家都是全掛掉的。所以中華電信在這一點，事實上在災害發生的時候，看起來的表現有比其他兩家電信公司還要來得強。但是我們現在看到的就是家用電話，因為鄉下很多老人還是要用家用電話，可是家用電話看起來整個復原還是遙遙無期，這部分……"],["簡董事長志誠：委員，我跟你報告，因為市話的部分要一戶一戶處理，現在嘉義差不多有七百多戶還沒有復原，整個臺南、嘉義加起來，差不多是一萬兩千多戶，現在只剩下差不多2,800戶，嘉義這邊有七百多戶，但是這兩天淹水又增加了差不多七百多戶，所以差不多還有1,500戶，這1,500戶如果天氣好的話，我們施工能量可以有500到1,000，看天氣狀況，所以如果天氣好的話，可能還要好幾天才有辦法把這些都修理好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒關係！整個7月，我們那裡風災完了是水災，事實上工班都很辛苦。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：不過確實居民也會有這樣的需求，所以我想中華電信可能要幫我們再多出一點力。"],["簡董事長志誠：好。因為除了臺南、嘉義的部分，我們都從各縣市調工班，都儘量把工班調去那裡了，但是其他縣市也要維持最基本的人力，因為那裡的東西也會壞。"],["蔡委員易餘：董事長，那些工班的權利，你們也是要照顧到。"],["簡董事長志誠：有。"],["蔡委員易餘：有加班的、也有來災區幫忙，都比較辛苦，我覺得應該要給他們比較多的獎勵。"],["簡董事長志誠：有。"],["蔡委員易餘：在災區工作是真的很辛苦。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：而且很多事實上都是超時工作。"],["簡董事長志誠：有，所以從各縣市調過來的，還是我們有一些外包商，我們都會特別留意這部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：他們來災區幫忙，老實說，我們感謝都來不及了，只有透過你們對他們再多照顧一下。"],["簡董事長志誠：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席（邱委員若華代）：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢。","下一位登記發言的委員林國成召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d502faf13bd7d19099c614178be661466180bf1b62ffb4c66a350af9c3d7560ef6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:49:07 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蘇衛部缺次長NCC陳主委好 NCC陳主委"},{"start":20.572,"end":43.922,"text":"兩位好一開始當然我們還是要關心這次的這個風災過後的一些狀況我想這個通訊斷掉我想對所有國人的影響都非常的重大因為沒有辦法通訊嘛那你看一下這個新聞這7月30號的新聞單大颱風第二十四天還有部分地方斷訊那NCC的說法是說要成立客服專線不過問題就在這裡啊今天我都沒有辦法通訊了"},{"start":45.27,"end":63.104,"text":"那如果成立客服專線他就沒辦法通訊他怎麼讓你們知道所以今天問題當然事情發生就發生了但我們要檢討說以後如果又發生類似的狀況技術上ACC到底能不能掌握到說有些地方已經斷訊了你們會知道嗎還是一定要等人通報你們才會知道"},{"start":64.874,"end":83.852,"text":"跟委員回報第一點這個通報部分可以是當地里長里長如果他跟他不通的在民也許不同但是他會知道的話那他可以透過他來服務然後另外第二部分剛剛委員講到說NC如何掌握哪邊通信不通"},{"start":84.572,"end":97.646,"text":"這邊因為在海頂成立之後我們大概都跟三大跟地心業者都有在協助連線也會進駐在網辦那邊多次會有一些每家業者的網路的狀況他們都要請他們回報"},{"start":99.048,"end":126.213,"text":"所以今天今天只是風災我們現在講因為今天剛好因為這個風災讓大家發現說原來我們通訊看起來本來就覺得我們是個先進的國家嘛科技之島但沒想到風災過後居然有這麼多地方沒辦法被沒辦法聯繫到其實說真的這個新聞就南部這個災情爆發出來還是因為有一些這個網友他們去現場拍的畫面空拍啊等等然後他們我們很多人主流媒體或是我們社會大眾突然發現到原來有這麼多地方聯繫不到"},{"start":127.333,"end":155.711,"text":"所以我今天要問的是說你今天主委我還是要問的問題是如果今天發生這種大規模斷訊的時候你們有掌握的機制嗎還是都一定要等像你剛剛講的要離場要基層通報不用 但是其中之一而已為什麼因為業者本身都有網路管理他有通過連線的哪邊記憶體不通他那個節點就黑掉他們都知道然後他們會通報我們所以我們在統計上都說記憶體壞掉幾台都是這樣子業者的網管系統都可以知道哪些點不通"},{"start":156.499,"end":160.767,"text":"那所以 以當當是颱風為例啦這一次你們什麼時候知道那些地方斷訊的"},{"start":161.618,"end":186.77,"text":"其實第一時間都知道第一時間業者會通報給我們好 所以那既然第一時間知道那你看後面包含說這有提到我們接下來要談的問題去年7月8號的時候這個跟數位部有點關係去年7月8號的時候數位部講說這個非同步軌道衛星通訊已經涵蓋台灣全島那時候我們看的那個計畫裡面是因為2022年有一個前瞻計畫叫應變或暫時應用新興科技通訊"},{"start":187.89,"end":201.454,"text":"的這個網路數位韌性的一個計畫那時候做了這樣的計畫之後7月8號的時候去年7月8號講說全島台灣就全覆蓋了所以以後萬一遇到像這種斷訊緊急事件的時候我們的敵軌衛星我們這相關東西能夠補位進來"},{"start":204.349,"end":223.157,"text":"但是從這次的事件發生之後你會看到說包含總統去勘災然後還要去點名說特別去點名郭國文有訊號其他的沒訊號為什麼會發生這樣的事情那這個地位衛星的訊號在這樣的狀況發生的時候在這種緊急狀況發生的時候他沒有辦法馬上補位嗎還是要透過什麼機制才能夠把它補上來"},{"start":224.282,"end":249.567,"text":"跟委員報告就是其實郭國倫委員的訊號他是中華電信那他如果是透過行動基地台車出現的那其實他就是借接低軌衛星那也就是說在在發生的第一時間我們已經調度了28台車到災區去支援那這28台車都是有低軌衛星的那但是呢因為因為只有28台28台很難去補1200"},{"start":253.288,"end":253.608,"text":"那所以所以呃"},{"start":272.479,"end":296.313,"text":"我們認為就是除了除了這一個低軌衛星的車跟這個行動基地台以外那強化原來的基站的建設那也是重要的一部分這個是我們在災後檢討就是包含高抗災基地台跟跟這個加油跟這個電力供應因為我們去分析1260幾個基站失效發現有40%是因為"},{"start":300.976,"end":319.828,"text":"沒有電那有50%是因為沒有網路那有10%是其他的因素比如說鐵塔倒了或綜合性的災害那所以去補足這個光纖網路的建設跟補足電力的供應是我們在下一期前瞻預算第一個要做的事情市長"},{"start":320.929,"end":332.341,"text":"這個前瞻計畫叫做應變或暫時應用新興科技強化通訊那今天是在風災所以大家還有辦法同步來處理那今天如果我們按照這個前瞻計畫是為了應付假設是應變這種暫時的狀況我想暫時假設真的發生戰爭"},{"start":338.444,"end":352.335,"text":"通訊團都斷掉了那如果全台灣只有三十台車二十八台車可以用的話今天是只有台南比較嚴重所以今天要派車去台南然後覆蓋沒辦法覆蓋到這麼廣泛那如果今天全台灣都陷入這種通訊中斷的情況下"},{"start":354.537,"end":368.838,"text":"加上你已經講了我們非同步軌道衛星是可以涵蓋台灣全球那當時的這個資訊裡面在去年也說年底前要佈建70個基地台的這個後設的這個基地台佈建完成了沒 佈建在哪裡 夠不夠"},{"start":370.279,"end":390.564,"text":"70個基地台大部分都部件完成了那很多是在重要的通訊節點比如說立法院行政院然後還有離島離島比如說像現在的東沙島東沙島它現在的backhole就是它原來的基地台中華電信機台原來是透過同步衛星"},{"start":391.704,"end":412.59,"text":"大概兩個月前他已經透過低軌道衛星傳回來那這個對於那個島上面的官兵的通訊品質也有很大的改善那太平島也是透過中軌衛星那包含了一些偏鄉跟島嶼的部分呢我們除了微波都是用衛星去補他的背後那另外這個700多個衛星的節點因為"},{"start":416.211,"end":441.38,"text":"有一百多個是用來做緊急的聯繫比如說像在災害應變中心在之前的演練我們就跟內政部的災害應變中心災害應變中心跟其他的縣市的災害應變中心視訊的時候也是有好幾個站點我們是用地軌衛星在運作的那所以這一個東西就是要在日常的演練都要拿出來用"},{"start":442.02,"end":462.553,"text":"那當然希望未來可以不斷的增加這個接收器的數目因為現在700多個雖然全台灣都有訊號包含離島都有訊號可是700多個只能單點的去救援那需要更多的接收器才能夠增加涵蓋率這樣我們是誤會了就是說你講的意思是說今天"},{"start":463.891,"end":480.52,"text":"技術上它也涵蓋全島 台灣全島但是我們接收的機器不夠 車子也好機台也好 所以等於還不夠嘛 你還要繼續佈建嘛 是不是這個意思那需要多少數量 因為今天講真的你不用再演練了 我們看到台南的風災這個事情就發現了這個問題的存在"},{"start":483.415,"end":496.054,"text":"就像我剛剛講的我們從去年的地震得到的教訓就是說這個車子不能要8小時以後才到災區所以我們就配合災害應變中心30台每一個地方都確保一個小時之內會到災區這個是爭取時效"},{"start":499.738,"end":525.188,"text":"但是如果要涵蓋率針對這樣的大規模災害那一個車子的數量跟碟子的數量要大幅的增加我們原來有規劃一個五年計畫是要逐步增加到2500個而且這個2500個希望是涵蓋不同的衛星因為你全部依賴單一的衛星也會有風險好 既然講到不同衛星我也想要問一下因為我們現在台灣使用的是OneWeb"},{"start":525.928,"end":543.775,"text":"好是用OneWeb那OneWeb是由我們中華電信代理的嘛代理申請的嘛對不對是由我們中華電信來申請的那今天剛剛次長也提到了我們希望有不同的衛星不同的公司來幫忙協助這個工作那為什麼台灣現在只選擇OneWeb那Starlink我們有去代理嗎有去處理嗎"},{"start":544.975,"end":561.657,"text":"不能申請的原因或是沒有申請的原因是什麼除了跟委員報告Starlink在速發部成立的時候就有來跟我們討論過兩三次那但是呢他真我們有兩個當初是有兩個法規造成這個障礙"},{"start":563.399,"end":583.598,"text":"那其中一個是gateway的設置另外一個是這個持股比例的設置那gateway設置這個法規限制已經拿掉了我們就是希望他能夠提供virtual的管理平台但是持股比例因為我們也就這一題跟"},{"start":586.58,"end":605.357,"text":"包含了外國的單位也做了討論那因為這一個法規是跟跟其他國家的法規是一致的那我們也有提出就是說包含STARLINK他在日本落地的模式跟韓國落地的模式我們都可以討論但是這都牽涉到複雜的"},{"start":606.858,"end":625.712,"text":"貿易問題跟跟自由貿易協定的問題所以所以大概之前的討論就停留在兩年前一年半前那但是我們當初要建我們當初要建設這個低軌衛星的時候呢我們也是希望一直多元所以我們同步跟好幾個廠商"},{"start":627.113,"end":647.884,"text":"去做聯繫那目前市面上除了Sarlink以外包含了Utersight的OneWave那還有這個SES就是中軌的部分我們都已經引入台灣然後在太空中心跟國科會的指導下面在下一期的太空計畫那也有計畫要引進新的星系"},{"start":648.504,"end":668.998,"text":"那這些新的新系因為都還在實驗的階段所以我們會持續關注也會持續的來做這樣的規劃那事實上我們是有非常我們有把握就是說任何新系只要他落地了我們一定會在第一時間讓他在台灣能夠運行"},{"start":670.305,"end":691.751,"text":"好 市長謝謝我想時間到了那今天主要就是最後一個是要提到主要要建議說不能只有OneWeb一間公司啦如果他們是透過代理的方式我想別間提供低軌衛星或中軌衛星的這種平台的技術我們應該也要考慮進去因為今天如果只有OneWeb它的覆蓋率也好它的出狀況萬一因為尤其是現在"},{"start":692.711,"end":708.591,"text":"我們經過這次事件之後發現我認為這樣子的一間公司的量能或是我們的技術面是沒辦法符合真的遇到緊急狀況或是萬一真的發生戰爭的時候我們是沒辦法處理的所以我希望我們數位部跟NCC能夠盡快的去跟其他公司"},{"start":709.471,"end":735.291,"text":"能夠趕快接上這個平台不要說只有一間而已好不好是 跟剛委員補充報告這個STAR LINK如果要在台灣落地其實方法並不是說現在的外資比例是個上限是個障礙不是因為電信法到電信管理法外資比例部分這個規定都沒有修正但是電信法時期的不管是海蘭還有其他的外資比例其實當時外人要投資台灣都可以操作處理那只是說"},{"start":736.832,"end":744.581,"text":"他實際上願不願意走以前的那種方式來處理他有意願的話就可以處理你說代理就好了嘛代理是請問處理對好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時49分）謝謝主席，我們一樣請數位部闕次長以及NCC陳主委。"],["主席：請數位部闕次長、NCC陳主委。"],["闕次長河鳴：委員好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：兩位好。一開始當然我們還是要關心這一次風災過後的一些狀況，我想通訊斷掉對所有國人的影響都非常重大，因為沒有辦法通訊嘛。你看一下這個新聞，這是7月30號的新聞，丹娜絲颱風第24天還有部分地方斷訊。NCC的說法是說要成立客服專線，不過問題就在這裡，今天我都沒有辦法通訊了，如果成立客服專線，他就是沒辦法通訊，那要怎麼讓你們知道？當然事情發生就發生了，但我們要檢討的是，以後如果又發生類似的狀況，NCC在技術上到底能不能掌握到，有些地方已經斷訊了，你們會知道嗎？還是一定要等人通報，你們才會知道？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，第一點，通報的部分可以是當地里長，如果里長跟通訊不通的災民也許通訊不通，但是他會知道的話，那他可以透過他來服務；另外第二部分，剛才委員講到NCC如何掌握哪邊通訊不通？因為在海警成立之後，我們大概跟三大電信業者都有在協作連線，也會進駐災防辦，那邊都會有每家業者的網路狀況，都要請他們回報。"],["黃委員健豪：今天只是風災，我們現在講的是，今天剛好因為這個風災讓大家發現到，原來我們的通訊……本來覺得我們是個先進的國家、科技之島，但沒想到風災過後，居然有這麼多地方沒辦法聯繫到，其實說真的，這個新聞、南部這個災情爆發出來，還是因為有些網友去現場拍的畫面、空拍等等，然後很多人、主流媒體或是我們社會大眾才突然發現到，原來有這麼多地方聯繫不到，所以我現在問的是，主委，如果今天發生這種大規模斷訊的時候，你們有掌握的機制嗎？還是都一定要等，像你剛剛講的，要里長、要基層通報，還是會主動發現？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不用，那是其中之一而已，為什麼？因為業者本身都有網路管理、都有連線，哪邊基地臺不通，那個節點就黑掉，他們都知道，然後他們會通報我們，所以我們在統計上都說基地臺壞掉幾臺，都是這樣子，業者的網管系統都可以知道哪些點不通。"],["黃委員健豪：所以以丹娜絲颱風為例，這一次你們什麼時候知道那些地方斷訊的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實第一時間都知道，第一時間業者會通報給我們。"],["黃委員健豪：好。主委，既然第一時間知道，那你看後面包含說……這就是我們接下來要談的問題，這個跟數位部有關係，去年7月8號數位部表示，非同步軌道衛星通訊已經涵蓋臺灣全島。那時候我們看的那個計畫裡面，2022年有一個前瞻計畫叫做應變或戰時應用新興科技強化通訊網路數位韌性計畫，那時候做了這樣的計畫之後，去年7月8號說臺灣、全島已經全覆蓋了，所以以後萬一遇到像這種斷訊、緊急事件的時候，我們的低軌衛星、我們相關的東西能夠補位進來，但是從這次事件發生之後，你會看到包含總統去勘災，還要特別點名說郭國文有訊號，其他人沒訊號，為什麼會發生這樣的事情？這個低軌衛星的訊號，在這樣的狀況發生的時候、在這種緊急狀況發生的時候，它沒有辦法馬上補位嗎？還是要透過什麼機制才能夠把它補上來？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，其實郭國文委員的訊號是中華電信，他如果是透過行動基地臺車出現的，其實他就是介接低軌衛星，也就是說，在災害發生的第一時間，我們已經調度了28臺車到災區去支援，這28臺車都是有低軌衛星的，但是因為只有28臺，28臺很難去補一千兩百六十幾台的基站，而且很多基站有鐵塔，而車子的基站，因為它沒有鐵塔，它升高的鐵塔的高度也有限，所以它的涵蓋面積會比固定式的基站來得小，所以我們認為，除了低軌衛星的車跟行動基地臺以外，強化原來的基站建設也是重要的一部分，這個是我們在災後檢討，就是包含高抗災基地臺跟電力供應，因為我們去分析一千兩百六十幾個基站失效，發現有40%是因為沒有電，有50%是因為沒有網路，有10%是其他的因素，比如說，鐵塔倒了或綜合性的災害，所以去補足光纖網路的建設跟補足電力的供應是我們在下一期前瞻預算第一個要做的事情。"],["黃委員健豪：次長，這個前瞻計畫叫做應變或戰時應用新興科技強化通訊網路數位韌性計畫，今天是因為風災，所以大家還有辦法同步來處理，如果今天我們按照這個計畫，假設是應變戰時的狀況，假設真的發生戰爭，通訊突然都斷掉了，結果全臺灣只有28臺車可以用的話，今天是只有臺南比較嚴重，所以今天要派車去臺南，然後也沒辦法覆蓋到這麼廣泛，如果今天全臺灣都陷入這種通訊中斷的情況下，加上你已經講了，我們非同步軌道衛星是可以涵蓋臺灣全島，那當時的資訊裡面，在去年也說年底前要布建70個基地臺後傳鏈路站點，布建完成了沒？布建在哪裡？夠不夠？"],["闕次長河鳴：70個基地臺大部分都布建完成了，很多是在重要的通訊節點，比如說立法院、行政院，還有離島，像現在的東沙島，東沙島現在的Backhaul……它原來的基地臺、中華電信的基地臺，原來是透過同步衛星，大概兩個月前，它已經透過低軌道衛星傳回來，這對於島上官兵的通訊品質也有很大的改善，太平島也是透過中軌衛星，包含一些偏鄉跟島嶼的部分，我們除了微波都是用衛星去補它的Backhaul。","另外，這七百多個衛星的節點，因為有一百多個是用來做緊急的聯繫，比如說，災害應變中心在之前的演練，內政部災害應變中心跟其他縣市的災害應變中心視訊的時候，有好幾個站點我們是用低軌衛星在運作的，所以這個東西在日常的演練都要拿出來用，當然希望未來可以不斷增加接收器的數目，因為現在是七百多個，雖然全臺灣都有訊號，包含離島都有訊號，可是七百多個只能單點的去救援，需要更多的接收器才能夠增加涵蓋率。"],["黃委員健豪：這樣我們是誤會了，你講的意思是說，今天技術上它可以涵蓋臺灣全島，但是我們接收的機器不夠，車子也好，基地臺也好，等於還不夠，你還要繼續布建，是不是這個意思？那需要多少數量？今天講真的也不用再演練了，我們看到臺南風災這個事情就發現這個問題的存在。"],["闕次長河鳴：就像我剛剛講的，我們從去年的地震得到的教訓就是說，這個車子不能8小時以後才到災區，所以我們就配合災害應變中心30臺，每一個地方都確保1個小時之內會到災區，這個是爭取時效，但是如果要涵蓋率，針對這樣的大規模災害，那個車子的數量跟碟子的數量要大幅增加，我們原來有規劃一個五年計畫，要逐步增加到2,500個，而且這2,500個希望是涵蓋不同的衛星，因為你全部依賴單一的衛星也會有風險。"],["黃委員健豪：好，既然講到不同衛星，我想要問一下，因為現在臺灣使用的是OneWeb，OneWeb是由我們中華電信代理申請的，對不對？剛剛次長也提到我們希望有不同的衛星、不同的公司來幫忙協助這個工作，那為什麼臺灣現在只選擇OneWeb？那Starlink我們有去代理嗎？有去處理嗎？不能申請的原因或是沒有申請的原因是什麼？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，Starlink在數發部成立的時候就有來跟我們討論過兩、三次，但是當初有兩個法規造成這個障礙，其中一個是Gateway的設置，另外一個是持股比例的設置。目前Gateway設置這個法規限制已經拿掉了，我們就是希望它能夠提供virtual的管理平臺；至於持股比例，我們就這一題跟外國的單位也做了討論，因為這個法規跟其他國家的法規是一致的，我們也有提出包含Starlink在日本落地的模式跟韓國落地的模式，我們都可以討論，但是這都牽涉到複雜的貿易問題跟自由貿易協定的問題，所以之前的討論就停留在兩年前、一年半前，但是我們當初要建設低軌衛星的時候，我們也是希望異質多元，所以我們同步跟好幾個廠商去做聯繫，目前市面上除了Starlink以外，包含Eutelsat的OneWeb，還有SES，就是中軌的部分，我們都已經引入臺灣，然後在太空中心跟國科會的指導下，下一期的太空計畫也有計畫要引進新的星系，這些新的星系因為都還在實驗的階段，所以我們會持續關注，也會持續做這樣的規劃。事實上我們有把握任何星系只要它落地了，我們一定會在第一時間讓它在臺灣能夠運行。"],["黃委員健豪：好，次長，謝謝。時間也到了，今天最後要提到，主要是建議不能只有OneWeb一間公司，如果他們是透過代理的方式，我想別間提供低軌衛星或中軌衛星這種平臺的技術，我們應該也要考慮進去。因為今天如果只有OneWeb，它的覆蓋率也好，或是它出狀況，尤其是我們經過這次事件之後，我認為這樣子一間公司的量能或是技術面，是沒辦法符合真的遇到緊急狀況，或是萬一真的發生戰爭的時候，我們是沒辦法處理的。所以我希望數位部跟NCC能夠儘快跟其他公司趕快接上這個平臺，不要只有一間而已，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，跟委員補充報告，Starlink如果要在臺灣落地，其實方法並不是現在外資比例上限的這個障礙，不是！因為電信法到電信管理法有關外資比例部分的規定都沒有修正，但是電信法時期的不管是海纜，還有其他的外資比例，其實當時外人要投資臺灣都可以操作處理，只是Starlink願不願意走以前那種方式來處理，它有意願的話就可以處理。"],["黃委員健豪：你說代理就好了嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：代理是其中之一。"],["黃委員健豪：就像OneWeb那種方式處理。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢。","現在請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163341","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163341","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50645cd24b4d882e03614178be661466180bf1b62ffb4c66a32843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:37:03 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中華電信那麼106年中華電信已經在台馬之星建置了傳播專用的訊號轉發器還有天線"},{"start":76.127,"end":89.953,"text":"並將對海涵蓋的基地還升級後續在108年8月又調整台灣對海涵蓋基地的天線還有更新台馬之星的接收天線"},{"start":91.601,"end":120.684,"text":"那麼很明顯經過實測已經顯著的改善了3G、4G這個航程中可以通話距離有大幅的提升當然這個中華電信還有剛才主席講了你們三個單位有沒有經費的問題有沒有被我們凍結或是幹什麼的有沒有因為經費的問題而斷訊中華電信有沒有目前沒有沒有 速發部有沒有目前沒有也沒有NCC有沒有"},{"start":121.328,"end":140.996,"text":"沒有,報告沒有你應該有吧?你不是被砍了很多嗎?是我們NCC本身,民眾的部分沒有民眾的部分沒有?剛才趙薇也講了,不要在這邊錢有問題有問題我們凍結的部分,我們全部都會幫你恢復所以有一些他們亂講,我們砍你的錢,讓你們連衛生紙都買不起不是這麼回事"},{"start":146.305,"end":173.728,"text":"為了進一步提升航運的通訊品質因為往返我們馬祖兩地、台灣兩地的客源的穩定還有可靠的行動的通訊服務供應台馬航線緊急的救助服務所以是不是能夠比到先前對台馬之星的通訊品質的精進那我這裡提出幾個"},{"start":175.149,"end":203.379,"text":"大概第一個是新台馬輪船艙內偵測轉發器偵測轉發器第二個是沿岸航蓋航線基地台建設5G的設備第三個是三芝恆山建設30M智力式的鐵塔提供航線信號航蓋錢董這樣聽懂了嗎聽懂第四個就是船艙洗孔及回覆"},{"start":204.451,"end":218.33,"text":"那麼這四個大概需要多少錢?需要一千四百萬請問中華電信還有速發部本案失作的其成細節,還有營運廠商聯絡的情形我想請中華電信說明一下好不好"},{"start":219.343,"end":248.459,"text":"好 這個臺碼 當然包括臺捧的這個船的輪我們都持續有在關注謝謝委員來協助推動這個事情那事實上我們已經也勘察一段時間而且已經也都規劃好 已經在進行當中那我們要特別謝謝蘇花部有特別來關心未來對這個經費的支柱應該蘇花部也會來支持"},{"start":249.289,"end":269.494,"text":"事務發部對本案補助經費你們研議的情形怎麼樣我們目前已經在預算裡面有去匡列這針對本來對離島的通訊補助的部分包含海嵐跟這些船舶的改善都有列入計畫裡面台馬輪這邊預計是在配合他稅休的時間"},{"start":275.876,"end":303.171,"text":"一一五年的二月的時候,他稅休的時間委員剛剛講的這些工程,我們已經協調中華電信開始準備預計在稅休時間會完成那另外兩家電信公司,我們後續也會就基地台這邊來做技術細節來討論會啦,這就是速發部部長,在交通委員會到馬祖考察的時候那麼我跟他私底下我們談了以後"},{"start":304.434,"end":332.191,"text":"我對他有更進一步的了解那麼部長對馬上組這個電信品質也非常的重視尤其對海嵐的部分,因為中華電信是一個公司組織嘛對不對他的錢也非常有限,虧本虧了很多啦所以請蘇發部也盡力的協助,那部長也答應我了所以簡董你要謝謝蘇發部有,我已經謝很多次啦謝很多次?謝一次就跟我講一次嘛好不好,讓我了解一下"},{"start":333.884,"end":360.536,"text":"這一次大辣子颱風當然因為全球的氣候變遷幾個颱風對我們台灣,西南氣流過來對中南部造成很重大的災害影響尤其是中華電信的部分,剛才也提到了南部居民對各類通訊設施損害功能抱怨很多"},{"start":362.082,"end":386.734,"text":"那麼還有我們馬祖的選區雖然說這次沒有受到颱風的災害但是在整個通訊韌性及搶救機制能不能對我們重大的天災我們還不知道那麼尤其馬祖、小山通還有台灣的觀光旅客非常的多如果通訊一旦中斷,當然現在有微波在那個"},{"start":388.206,"end":415.211,"text":"那最近在勘察的過程,我也看到陳廷飛委員說還是林俊賢委員去調度通訊基地台行動的通訊基地台我想這個有很大的注意,我不曉得台灣有多少台這樣的東西是,那個如果行動基地台加衛星整個加一加中華電信在本島有50台那另外還有業者的應該也有"},{"start":417.268,"end":428.591,"text":"跟委員報告衛星有萬位的支援萬位的機台總共30台,44位部去年補助的總共30台那非衛星的大概106台加起來136台那這個有沒有機會能不能引進一台到馬祖來我們萬一也發生類似的狀況那個會不會很貴啊那個"},{"start":438.21,"end":446.994,"text":"跟委員報告就是說衛星其實只佔那個車子的一部分的價錢那一部車大概是1100萬到1500萬那衛星的部分佔300萬那其實在馬祖我們已經放了中軌衛星跟低軌衛星"},{"start":457.179,"end":477.311,"text":"那就是說這個可以討論就是說其實馬祖如果在某些制高點已經有低軌衛星那是不是加上車子可以解決局部災區的問題這個我們回去會跟電信商討你們衛星研究看看好不好看看如果中國衛星低軌衛星如果它還不足的話"},{"start":478.547,"end":503.257,"text":"那有必要的時候當然不只馬祖還有金門澎湖我們離島能夠有的話各放一台放在那邊對我們地區居民如果碰到天災的時候我們有所因應你回去研究一下好不好沒問題 我們的確是有一部分就是用來支持離島的通訊還有目前對馬祖地區的通訊的搶救機制"},{"start":504.528,"end":508.941,"text":"還有人員的訓練,還有裝備器材準備的情形怎麼樣?"},{"start":511.215,"end":538.641,"text":"現在對於馬祖的通訊就如同委員所知我們現在臺馬2號3號另外4號即將明年要通除此之外我們對馬祖的微波已經12.6G了另外就是低軌衛星 萬衛博也在那邊有中軌衛星 高軌衛星都有那委員所關心的可能是衛星的量我們可以在碟子上面再多增加那移動車的部分剛才次長有特別講會再研究"},{"start":539.417,"end":560.956,"text":"我們馬祖很麻煩因為有四個鄉有五個島住人的地方有五個島比澎湖少一點金門簡單金門一個大金門一個小金門尤其他又通橋了金門的問題還比較單純所以如果對於馬祖幾個離島我倒是建議可以放一些低軌彗星的碟子"},{"start":561.816,"end":587.877,"text":"因為一個碟子50萬到100萬多放兩個在固定的基地台旁邊萬一有什麼狀況他也可以隨時來啟動好啊我剛才提到行動那個通訊車的問題啊如果中軌衛星跟低軌衛星能夠滿足這些需求的話或是你再多裝一兩個嘛對不對能夠滿足的話當然我們就不需要了嘛這個請速發部中華電信你們回去研究一下好不好"},{"start":588.718,"end":606.354,"text":"你們去研究一下我們回去會研究其他大概中華電力隊馬祖地區我想該做的也都做了現在就在地人員在地化有沒有現在你們招考人員有在加強了沒有因為"},{"start":607.625,"end":633.83,"text":"你招考就是單一個單一個的話這個人台灣的我們鄉親錄取他又不去不去你又委外又重新招考又半年就過去了所以造成中華電機在馬祖那邊的人力不足不夠因為你看我們東舉只配置一個舉光配置一個都是一個那你一個一缺的話你有兩個三個的話一個不在的話起碼還有兩個嘛對不對"},{"start":635.748,"end":664.938,"text":"你只有一個人啊,一個不在的話就沒啦是不是所以簡董你考慮一下這個問題好不好是跟委員報告我們招考盡量以在地的他比較容易一直在那邊服務啦這部分我們會來因為以前都這樣做啦,我們會更強化來做所以你們在起碼錄取幾個被取的嘛被取的在第二次,第一個不去的話被取的就可以低補上去了嘛你不要重新再考嘛你不要爭取一個被取的你不用了,不用就沒啦"},{"start":665.858,"end":691.908,"text":"所以中華電力在這一個部分我拜託你們好不好能夠加強一下其他有關經費的問題如果有問題的話到交通委員會跟我們報告好不好我想交通委員會是一個滿溫和的委員會大概都會不要去談錢的事情剛才趙偉特別講了你說這個又沒錢那個又被你們凍結凍結可以恢復我們並沒有怎麼樣所以我剛才講到NCC"},{"start":693.1,"end":707.478,"text":"那是因為速發部NCC打詐不利打詐不利我們刪減了一些經費問題是出在這裡我們沒有意思要行政單位癱瘓並沒有這個意思好不好那謝謝三位好不好謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時37分）謝謝主席，請數發部闕次長、中華電信簡董還有NCC主委。"],["主席：請數發部闕次長、中華簡董事長還有陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：我首先要謝謝中華電信簡董，也謝謝你們的全部同仁，亮島跟高登可以說是前線中的前線，以前都沒有基地臺，當然，我們對官兵的照顧不是嘴巴講的，除了待遇上我們給他照顧之外，在通訊上也要照顧到，在高登、亮島的阿兵哥在那邊一年、兩年的一待都待很久，常常臺灣這邊的女朋友鬧兵變，他就會心情不好或什麼的，現在他們心情都非常愉快，而且待遇也非常高，一個充員兵大概可以拿到九萬多塊，所以很多人都願意到那邊當兵，非常感謝中華電信。","106年中華電信已經在臺馬之星建置了船舶專用的訊號轉發器及天線，並將對海涵蓋的基地臺升級，後續在108年8月又調整臺灣對海涵蓋基地的天線，還有更新臺馬之星的接收天線，很明顯的，經過實測已經有顯著的改善，3G、4G在航程中可以通話的距離大幅提升，當然包括中華電信還有……剛才主席講了，你們三個單位有沒有經費的問題？有沒有被我們凍結或是幹什麼的？有沒有因為經費的問題而斷訊？中華電信有沒有？"],["簡董事長志誠：目前沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：數發部有沒有？"],["闕次長河鳴：目前沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：也沒有。那NCC有沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報告，沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：你應該有吧？你不是被砍了很多嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是我們NCC本身，民眾的部分沒有。"],["陳委員雪生：好，民眾的部分沒有。剛才召委員也講了，不要在這邊說錢有問題，如果有問題，被我們凍結的部分，我們全部都會幫你恢復，所以有一些人亂講，說我們砍了你們的預算，讓你們連衛生紙都買不起，不是這麼回事啦！","為了進一步提升航運的通訊品質，為了讓往返臺灣馬祖兩地的客源穩定，還有可靠的行動通訊服務來供應臺馬航線緊急的救助服務，所以是不是能夠比照先前對臺馬之星通訊品質的精進，我在這裡提出幾點，第一個是新臺馬輪船艙內增設轉發器；第二個是沿岸涵蓋航線基地台建設5G設備；第三個是三芝橫山建設30M自立式鐵塔，提供臺馬航線信號涵蓋。簡董，這樣聽懂了嗎？"],["簡董事長志誠：聽懂。"],["陳委員雪生：好，第四個就是船艙洗孔暨恢復。這四個大概需要多少錢呢？需要1,400萬。請問中華電信及數發部，本案施作的期程細節，與營運廠商聯絡的情形，我想請中華電信說明一下，好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：好。臺馬輪和臺澎輪我們都持續有在關注，謝謝委員協助推動這個事情。事實上我們已經勘查一段時間，而且也都規劃好已經在進行當中。我們也要謝謝數發部有特別來關心，未來對這個經費的資助，數發部應該也會來支持。"],["陳委員雪生：是、是、是。那麼數發部對本案補助的經費，你們研議的情形怎麼樣？"],["闕次長河鳴：目前我們在預算裡面已經有匡列，就是本來針對離島通訊補助的部分，包含海纜跟船舶的改善都有列入計畫裡面。臺馬輪這邊預計是配合歲修的時間，就是在115年2月歲修的時間，委員剛剛講的這些工程，我們已經協調中華電信開始準備，預計在歲修時間會完成。另外兩家電信公司，我們後續也會就基地台這部分的技術細節做討論。"],["陳委員雪生：會啦，這次數發部部長在交通委員會到馬祖考察的時候，我跟他私底下談了以後，我對他有更進一步的了解。部長對馬祖的電信品質也非常重視，尤其對海纜的部分。因為中華電信是一個公司組織嘛，對不對？它的錢也非常有限，虧本也虧了很多，所以請數發部也盡力的協助，部長也答應我了，所以簡總，你要謝謝數發部喔。"],["簡董事長志誠：有，我已經謝很多次了。"],["陳委員雪生：謝很多次了？你謝一次就跟我講一次嘛，好不好？讓我了解一下。"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["陳委員雪生：這一次的丹娜絲颱風，當然因為全球的氣候變遷，幾個颱風帶來的西南氣流對我們臺灣中南部造成很重大的災害影響。尤其是中華電信的部分，剛才也提到了，南部居民對各類通訊設施損害功能抱怨很多。還有我們馬祖的選區，雖然這次沒有受到颱風的災害，但是整個通訊韌性及搶救機制能不能應對重大的天災，我們還不知道。尤其馬祖小三通，還有臺灣的觀光旅客非常的多，如果通訊一旦中斷，當然現在有微波在。最近在勘災的過程，我也看到陳亭妃委員還是林俊憲委員去調度行動的通訊基地台是不是？我想這個有很大的助益，我不曉得臺灣有多少台這樣的東西？"],["簡董事長志誠：如果行動基地台加衛星，整個加一加，中華電信在本島有50台，另外還有業者的應該也有。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，衛星有支援OneWeb的機台總共30台，是數位部去年補助的；那非衛星的大概106台，加起來136台。"],["陳委員雪生：有沒有機會引進一台到馬祖來，我們萬一也發生類似的狀況，那個會不會很貴？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，衛星其實只占那個車子一部分的價錢，那一部車大概是1,100萬到1,500萬，衛星的部分占300萬。其實在馬祖我們已經放了中軌衛星跟低軌衛星，這個可以討論，就是說其實馬祖如果在某些制高點已經有低軌衛星，那是不是加上車子可以解決局部災區的問題，這個我們回去會跟電信業者去商討……"],["陳委員雪生：你們回去研究看看，好不好？"],["闕次長河鳴：好。"],["陳委員雪生：看看如果中軌衛星、低軌衛星還不足的話，有必要的時候，當然不只馬祖，還有金門、澎湖等離島，能夠有的話，各放一台在那邊，我們地區居民如果碰到天災的時候，我們能有所因應。你回去研究一下，好不好？"],["闕次長河鳴：沒問題，我們的確有一部分就是用來支持離島的通訊。"],["陳委員雪生：還有目前對馬祖地區通訊的搶救機制及有人員的訓練，還有裝備器材準備的情形怎麼樣？"],["簡董事長志誠：現在馬祖的通訊，就如同委員所知，我們現在有臺馬二號、三號，另外四號即將明年要開通；除此之外，我們對馬祖的微波已經12.6G了；另外就是低軌衛星OneWeb在那邊也有，中軌衛星、高軌衛星都有。委員所關心的可能是衛星的量，我們可以在碟子上面再做增加，那移動車的部分，剛才次長有特別講會再研究。"],["陳委員雪生：我們馬祖很麻煩，你知道嗎？因為有四個鄉五個島，住人的地方有五個島，比澎湖少一點。金門簡單，金門就一個大金門、一個小金門，尤其它又通橋了嘛，是不是？金門的問題還比較單純啦。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。所以如果對於馬祖幾個離島，我倒是建議可以放一些低軌衛星的碟子，因為一個碟子50萬到100萬，多放兩個在固定的基地台旁邊，萬一有什麼狀況他也可以隨時來啟動，那也是方法……"],["陳委員雪生：好。我剛才提到的行動通訊車的問題，如果中軌衛星跟低軌衛星能夠滿足這些需求的話，或是你再多裝一兩個嘛，對不對？能夠滿足的話，當然我們就不需要了嘛。這個請數發部跟中華電信，你們回去研究一下，好不好？你們去研究一下。"],["闕次長河鳴：好，我們回去會研究。"],["陳委員雪生：好。大概中華電信對馬祖地區，我想該做的也都做了，現在就是在地人員啦，在地化有沒有？現在你們招考的人員有在加強了沒有？因為你招考就是單一個，單一個的話，這個人我們臺灣的鄉親錄取他又不去，不去你又委外，又重新招考又半年就過去了，所以造成中華電信在馬祖那邊的人力不足。你看我們東莒只配置一個，莒光配置一個，都是一個，單一人力一旦出缺的話，你有兩個、三個人力的話，一個不在起碼還有兩個嘛，對不對？你只有一個人啊，一個不在的話就沒啦，是不是？"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["陳委員雪生：所以，簡董，你考慮一下這個問題，好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：是。跟委員報告，我們在招考人員儘量以在地的，他比較容易一直在那邊服務，這部分我們會注意，以前也都這樣做，我們會更強化來做。"],["陳委員雪生：所以你們起碼再錄取幾個備取的嘛……"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["陳委員雪生：備取的在第二次，第一個不去的話，備取的就可以遞補上去了嘛，你不要重新再考嘛。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["陳委員雪生：要不然正取一個，備取的你不用，不用就沒啦！"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["陳委員雪生：所以中華電信在這個部分，我拜託你們，好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：好、好……"],["陳委員雪生：能夠加強一下。其他有關經費的問題，如果有問題的話，到交通委員會跟我們報告嘛，好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["陳委員雪生：我想交通委員會是一個滿溫和的委員會，不要去談錢的事情啦。剛才召委特別講了，你說這個又沒錢，那個又被你們凍結，凍結可以恢復啊，對不對？我們並沒有怎麼樣。我剛才講到NCC，那是因為數發部、NCC打詐不力，所以我們刪減了一些經費，問題是出在這裡。我們沒有意思要行政單位癱瘓，並沒有這個意思，好不好？那就謝謝三位，謝謝主席。"],["簡董事長志誠：好，謝謝委員、謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50ee9d98026865e5b4614178be661466180bf1b62ffb4c66a3a4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:19:33 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謝謝董事長其實這一次已經發生了這麼久來我看到不管是台電 中華電信甚至很多的一個公務單位在第一線搶修人員我是敬佩 辛苦了"},{"start":190.352,"end":209.425,"text":"但是我覺得說在這樣的一個算是危機處理中間不管是跨單位的一個協調怎麼樣在面臨類似的一個危機的時候更有效得到有效的一個經驗這是我們所有跨部會單位大家一起要努力的那我請問一下我們數位部這個政策"},{"start":211.468,"end":234.695,"text":"我們特別有看到因為這個事實上跟很多單位都有相關我們特別看到你有筆預算前瞻計畫四期是112年到143年其中的它一個標的最主要就是要提升重大災害時通訊網路應變滿符合今天一個題目當然你這個整體預算來講我們看到你們的數字是81.9億"},{"start":236.796,"end":263.484,"text":"分兩年去做一個執行節制於我們前幾天跟你去調在這個計畫未執行的比例只剩3.1%也就是說你花掉了七十幾億好 花掉七十幾億我們覺得說就這個預算的一個標題對於重大災害發生的時候通信網路的一個應變應該要更提升更強那可是我們發覺你花了這一筆錢之後呢"},{"start":264.344,"end":293.41,"text":"我們仔細去看其中有一條是強化93座的基地台的基礎設施不管是有災害來風災來的時候我把它強化嘛避免來的時候可能被吹倒或說發生損害結果我們也有發現這93座基地台強化的一個部分對於現在丹納斯那個風災的災區是這裡所有的缺都沒有那我是想說明一下啦就請教一下請教一下好不好"},{"start":294.21,"end":312.86,"text":"市長你們在整個這樣規劃已經快結束了你們自己再稍微回想一下這一次風災帶來了中南部這幾個縣市在通郡上面的災害是不是你們當時都沒有想到是在區域它的一個模式是沒有想到還是在區塊上面還沒有輪到大概是什麼樣一個情況 請說明一下"},{"start":314.921,"end":334.237,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在前瞻第四期是主要的預算是在新設333座5G基地台那強化93座那但是呢當初當初這個預算他有一個但書就是說這些是以偏鄉為優先"},{"start":336.018,"end":362.167,"text":"那也就是說偏鄉在在在這一個他他有一定的規定就是人口涵蓋度是多少那的確是針對這個嘉南平原的地區因為他靠市區比較近當初沒有被列為有一部分當初沒有被列為偏鄉所以當初很多是到山林或者是其他地方去改善那我們在災害應變中心跟內政部討論也馬上"},{"start":364.648,"end":391.011,"text":"就是針對第五期就是今年下半年的前瞻第五期那我們就優先來處理這個高抗災基地台那會優先在災區這邊來建置好 這部分我是建議說這個要特別注意啦因為這是一個很重要的一個經驗那當然因為我們在因為你的標題最主要是要重大災害時嘛當然偏鄉會聯絡不方便這是一個重點嘛"},{"start":391.411,"end":405.487,"text":"另外一個像很多區塊他比較容易受到不管是風災甚至地震去做一個挑戰的這個部分我也覺得這種災害的頻率或者機率可能性較大的一個區塊也要納入未來的一個重點"},{"start":406.368,"end":425.498,"text":"那剛剛市長特別說到了就是目前主要針對於五期的部分29億你們會拿出部分的預算來做高抗災的基地台而且第一個要先行來辦理這個本次災害損這個嚴重的一個區塊我很支持 這個是一個對的方向"},{"start":426.258,"end":444.858,"text":"那當然這個基地台自己就備有72小時一個備載的一個電力萬一這一次雖然你們的有些基地台修復很快可是有些地方電不來啊他沒有電啊不來電啊因為電感可能倒下來2000多支啊台電人也很辛苦啊所以"},{"start":445.999,"end":461.937,"text":"不管是光纜斷了或者電力斷了這都會造成即使你修好了線路還是沒有辦法使用所以你這邊要預計這個高抗災的基地台耐15級風那我是不是建議次長還是你們那相關的一個單位"},{"start":463.058,"end":484.565,"text":"我覺得要特別注意因為極端氣候啊雖然都不是我們所願的但是現況就是這樣這次的丹娜斯颱風啊我們在撤出在這個氣象署在撤出園林口吳鄉曾經陣風高達17級風啊在表面上看起來我即將要做一個抗災高抗災基地台它可以耐15級風啊"},{"start":486.025,"end":502.19,"text":"可是已經發生了就有17級風那他你把這個高抗災的基地台如果已經做好了來模擬一下在這個口湖鄉發生這樣的一個情況會不會也倒下來了所以我在想我覺得這個是技術上"},{"start":503.23,"end":524.663,"text":"技術當然要怎麼樣去做處理要怎麼樣去強化我覺得花了這麼多錢居然要去把它做好我希望你們在這個抗風的一個係數上面你們再去精進再去考量各位看到下面這個這一本是我們國科會跟環境部他們做出來的去年2024年針對於氣候變遷的科學報告"},{"start":529.085,"end":557.304,"text":"他裡面特別有一個章節針對未來颱風的趨勢啊那不是我寫的嘛我也覺得既然花這麼多時間去研究其中颱風強度預計啊極端氣候他本身就會上升那第二個呢最大風速呢他有預期會增加5到9%所以你們在原本預估的他未來的能不能經歷過這些挑戰我希望你們能夠一併去考量次長好不好好謝謝委員執教因為那個規範他"},{"start":559.225,"end":572.903,"text":"它是已經訂定那規範修正需要時間那我們也會滾動式檢討但是我想我們可以做的就是說如果業者他是以超過標準去做那我們會擇優補助"},{"start":574.905,"end":591.473,"text":"那第二個有關剛剛委員講到電力的問題因為其實光靠高抗災基地台是沒有辦法面對大規模的災害所以我們在這一次的前瞻預算裡面也匡列了大概200部的行動發電機那因為我們分析的結果發現1263個基站裡面有40%是因為沒有電"},{"start":599.525,"end":618.8,"text":"那因為大規模的電線倒塌嘛所以去補發電機也是一個也是一個solution那這一邊我們會有層次的來規劃那希望在下半年能夠順利的來進行好的 謝謝次長尤其這個風力這個部分因為未來你做好之後民眾都在看嘛"},{"start":619.58,"end":640.166,"text":"坦白講我們所有國民的納稅那我們今天做好我們希望你們想方設法讓他的抗風係數啊已經實際發生了那我們去做一個可能時期急風再來又倒掉這個我是覺得怪怪的齁那最後我想請中華電信的簡董事長簡董7月31號啊這個大斷訊事件啊"},{"start":643.479,"end":670.204,"text":"其實因為我發覺應該受到不要講受害就受到困擾的人真的很多因為我自己親身經歷不管是產生誤會請政府單位回里長電話給他里長到下午爆氣一通電話也沒接到那我們用LINE傳給環保局我說你們莫名其妙你們為什麼跟里長為什麼不聯絡他說他打了五通沒人接"},{"start":671.424,"end":694.489,"text":"兩邊吵來吵去 吵到最後吵到最後發覺兩邊都沒錯是中華電信發生大斷訊事件可是我覺得很奇怪我是到大概下午5點多我自己 你也沒傳簡訊給我我不知道你預期我們一般人要怎麼樣知道這件事情我們報章媒體它有披露大斷訊造成很多的影響我們知道這個訊息"},{"start":695.689,"end":721.49,"text":"那在個人那個手機那一般就是自己你們自己內部排除去解決問題首先第一個問題啊田董事長請問一下你們告訴我是系統升級我想請問一下這一類的系統升級應該是每一年或者一兩年就這是一個常態性的還是一輩子只做一次的常態性的嗎那怎麼會之前都沒有發生這個問題這次到底為什麼發生問題你說一下吧"},{"start":723.311,"end":738.067,"text":"好 這個跟委員報告這個是凌晨啦 因為我們升級都在凌晨那這一次的升級是針對行動語音叫做VOTE只有語音部分升級啦那本來我們的備援是四套系統加一套備援"},{"start":738.607,"end":759.34,"text":"我們是想要再多加一套讓它更具有彈性所以在升級的時候這個軟體的升級可能有一些在功能上面沒有掌握那麼清楚所以當天確實在凌晨這個整個語音的部分就斷訊所以在凌晨兩三點那一直修到凌晨六點"},{"start":761.702,"end":783.724,"text":"6點就恢復啦但是這個恢復我們系統都恢復啦但是因為很多的使用者之前已經連在上面了所以變成我們要主一個去把它踢掉再重新來連接這個有兩個方法我們系統一邊踢另外user如果是關機關機再開機就恢復啦也是這個動作"},{"start":785.988,"end":791.626,"text":"6點開始一直到之後的就會延續剛才委員講的這個事件好 董事長誰的責任"},{"start":793.559,"end":819.369,"text":"中華電信要來檢討這個升級為什麼會造成這個問題到底誰啊 你也不要扛責任 到底誰沒搞清楚 到底發生什麼事這樣啊 你們回去要好研究一下啦 好不好是這過去有類似的升級 不管是各個領域都會有update嘛那升級這種怎麼會發生這樣的一個算是非常嚴重性的一些問題我覺得你們要有具體的一個書面報告提供給我們交通委員會也一方面給你們自己來做精進的作為"},{"start":820.029,"end":840.584,"text":"那我今天要說的是第二項在斷信發生的時間你們六點逐步把你們的內部系統修復之後結果我覺得我到現在還是覺得有點莫名其妙你剛剛也特別說了語音系統沒辦法使用可是簡訊因為我傳給別人簡訊人家還收到你知道嗎所以"},{"start":841.445,"end":867.657,"text":"你們只透過官方網站但大家都知道現在每一個人的HOMEPAGE網站每一次大家要去上面看你每一天說真的啦沒有幾千人會上去的流量那你透過社群媒體TRADE現在年輕人很多在用啊可是我也不太懂你為什麼單獨在TRADE上面去發表發生這樣的一個訊息說你要開飛航模式或怎麼樣關機再開"},{"start":869.878,"end":884.023,"text":"我就最簡單是你自己可以掌控的所有用戶的簡訊你用戶的簡訊你在第一時間就應該去發給他們說抱歉請你飛行模式在開或者關機在開你現在在檢討是不是用戶簡訊應該一剛開始就發"},{"start":888.314,"end":912.514,"text":"是 我們一開始隔天就是在網站跟社群媒體寄然後在新聞稿也都發布啦那簡訊確實第一時間也想要發整個簡訊但是我們有1100萬的這個用戶所以我們簡訊是逐批發也怕說一次發了所有人都來又會造成系統的當掉所以簡訊是一開始就逐步就有在發啦"},{"start":913.234,"end":938.783,"text":"沒有啦 我覺得喔 董事長我不覺得這是你直接的責任啦但是統籌的要負責任當事 你們董總要出來啦因為像這種東西很簡單嘛你簡訊在發的過去不管是疫情期間 瞬間告訴大家什麼事情也沒斷訊啦 如果說你考慮是費用的話真的是很不應該啦 真的是很不應該如果說啊 費用 這一條沒人付我不知道什麼原因"},{"start":939.463,"end":964.436,"text":"我自己個人 我一個人沒有收到嘛所以你說逐步發 逐步發很多人到現在也沒有收到是不是為了省錢我真的不清楚但是你們絕對不應該這樣的處理這件事情對你們所有的用戶這是服務的一部分這是服務成本的一部分你在第一時間就應該用用戶的簡訊直接告訴你的用戶說語音通話不通 請你關機再開我希望下次可以去調整為什麼"},{"start":965.496,"end":971.404,"text":"你每一天的化物量這你們的數字嘛這前半年的平均每一天820萬"},{"start":975.136,"end":999.272,"text":"就在那一整天大家斷信打擾的不管是國際的商務甚至醫療所有人你不能夠說連這一條錢都把它省起來我覺得這樣很不應該我覺得這個部分對於下次的SOP如果再有這種情況除非簡訊也不通那我今天就是白講了簡訊通你第一個應該要用自己的資源通知自己的客戶你們好好去研究好不好"},{"start":1000.128,"end":1024.788,"text":"好 謝謝 跟委員報告不是錢的問題是怕花了一千萬簡訊之後一千萬的人如果重新開機關機喔 系統又會當掉所以我們是逐批發喔 跟那個費用沒有關係喔跟委員特別報告一下好吧 那我們還沒發到的是是被欸 我問你喔 大家的手機都不通啊郭國文的通不通啊"},{"start":1027.148,"end":1027.788,"text":"謝謝魯明哲委員的執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":490,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時19分）謝謝主席，有請數位部闕次長、NCC陳主委，還有中華電信簡董事長，相關的問題我一併問。"],["主席：請數位部闕政次、NCC陳主委和中華電信簡董事長。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["闕次長河鳴：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：我想問一下中華電信，近幾年不管是天災或人為的部分，像這樣斷訊這麼久的大概有幾次，我們看到7月27號災後21天，當然因為有可能市話、有可能手機，甚至現在用網路，很多的通訊對外都斷訊，但是在我記憶中21天、3個禮拜之後還沒有辦法修復，這個情況是比較少見到的。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：這是交通部長下去視察，然後有民眾、媒體相關也在詢問，這是災後第22天，簡董事長你先說一下好不好？這次的情況看起來比一般天災還要再長，主要的問題你剛剛已經說過了，這個部分除了天災的問題，希望未來在技術上不要再面臨，萬一面臨的話，你們有什麼經驗跟教訓？"],["簡董事長志誠：跟委員報告，這個分行動跟固網兩塊，有關行動的部分，其實在發生的前幾天中華電信都恢復了，當然另外兩家目前因為一些據點電力還有線路的狀況等，所以行動部分恢復得比較快。但是剛才那個影片看到大部分都是固網，即室內電話，這次比較特殊，因為風是從嘉義整個海面過來，所以主要的線路像電線桿就倒了兩千多支電線桿，還有在外面看到的光化交接箱總共有一千八百多個壞掉，而我們自己cover的INFRA固定線路是很快修好，但是因為光化交接箱要拉到住戶的這一塊要一條一條修，這一次因為大概有一萬二、三千戶，所以是比較慢。這一次的狀況比較特殊，主要是電線桿跟光化交接箱倒得非常多，其他以前的……大概行動基地臺的恢復會比較快。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝董事長。其實這一次發生這麼久以來，我看到不管是台電、中華電信，甚至很多的公務單位在第一線搶修人員，我是敬佩、覺得辛苦了，但是我覺得在這樣的危機處理中間，不管是跨單位的協調，怎麼樣在面臨類似危機的時候更有效，得到有效的一個經驗，這是所有跨部會單位要一起努力的。","我請問一下數位部政次，事實上這個跟很多單位都有相關，我們特別看到你有一筆預算前瞻計畫四期（112年到113年），其中它一個標的最主要就是要提升重大災害時通訊網路的應變，蠻符合今天的題目，以整體預算來講，我們看到你們的數字是81.9億，分兩年執行，截至前幾天我們跟你調資料，在這個計畫未執行的比例只剩3.1%，也就是說你花掉了七十幾億。好，已花掉七十幾億，我們覺得就這個預算的標的，對於重大災害發生時的通訊網路應變應該要更提升、更強，可是我們發覺花了這一筆錢之後，我們仔細去看，其中有一條是強化93座基地臺的基礎設施，不管是有災害來、風災來的時候，把它強化，避免災害來的時候可能被吹倒或是發生損害。結果我們也發現強化這93座基地臺的部分，對比於現在丹娜絲風災的災區，其實是所有的區都沒有。我想請教一下次長，你們規劃已經快結束了，你們自己再稍微回想一下，這一次風災帶來了中南部這幾個縣市在通訊上面的災害，是不是你們當時都沒有想到？究竟是它的模式沒有想到，還是在區塊上面還沒有輪到，大概是什麼樣一個情況，請說明一下。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，在前瞻第四期主要預算是在新設333座5G基地臺、強化93座，但是當初這個預算它有一個但書，就是這些是以偏鄉為優先，偏鄉關於人口涵蓋度多少它有一定的規定，因為嘉南平原地區靠市區比較近，的確當初有一部分沒有被列為偏鄉，所以很多是到山林或者是其他地方去改善。而我們在災害應變中心跟內政部討論，也馬上針對今年下半年的前瞻第五期，我們就優先來處理高抗災基地臺，會優先在災區這邊來建置。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這個部分我是建議要特別注意啦，因為這是很重要的一個經驗。因為你的標題最主要是重大災害時，當然偏鄉會聯絡不方便，這是一個重點，另外一個，像很多區塊比較容易受到不管是風災甚至地震的挑戰，我也覺得在災害頻率或者機率可能性較大的區塊，也要納入未來的重點。剛剛次長特別說到了，目前針對第五期29億，你們會拿出部分的預算來做高抗災的基地臺，而且第一個要先行辦理本次災害毀損嚴重的區塊，我很支持，這個是對的方向。當然，這個基地臺自己就備有72小時備援的電力，雖然你們有些基地臺修復得很快，可是有些地方電不來，它沒有電，不來電啊，因為電桿倒下兩千多支，台電人員也很辛苦啊！所以不管是光纜斷了，或者電力斷了，這都會造成即使你修好了線路還是沒有辦法使用。所以你預計高抗災的基地臺要耐15級風，但因為極端氣候，我是不是建議次長及相關單位要特別注意，雖然都不是我們所願的，但是現況就是這樣。這一次的丹娜絲颱風，氣象署在雲林口湖鄉曾經測出高達17級陣風，表面上看起來我們即將要做可以耐15級風的高抗災基地臺，可是已經發生的就有17級風，這個高抗災的基地臺如果已經做好了，你把它來模擬一下，在口湖鄉發生這樣的情況會不會也倒下來了？所以我在想，我覺得這個是技術上要怎麼樣去做處理、要怎麼樣去強化，花了這麼多錢，我希望你們既然要把它做好，在抗風的係數上面再去精進、再去考量。","各位看到下面這一本是國科會跟環境部做出來的，（去）2024年針對氣候變遷的科學報告，它裡面特別有一個章節針對未來颱風的趨勢，那不是我寫的嘛，但我也覺得既然花這麼多時間去研究，其中極端氣候預計颱風的強度本身就會上升。第二個，最大風速它預期會增加5%到9%，所以你們原本預估的，在未來能不能經歷這些挑戰，我希望你們能夠一併去考量，次長，好不好？"],["闕次長河鳴：好，謝謝委員指教，因為規範已經訂定，規範修正需要時間，我們也會滾動式檢討，但是我想我們可以做的就是如果業者是以超過標準去做，那我們會擇優補助。第二個，有關剛剛委員講到電力的問題，其實光靠高抗災基地臺是沒有辦法面對大規模的災害。所以我們在這一次的前瞻預算裡面，也匡列了大概兩百部的行動發電機，因為我們分析的結果發現1,263個基站裡面有40%是因為沒有電，因為大規模的電線倒塌，所以去補發電機也是一個solution，這一邊我們會有層次的來規劃，希望在下半年能夠順利的來進行。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，謝謝次長，尤其風力這個部分，因為未來你做好之後民眾都在看，坦白講，我們所有國民的納稅錢，今天做好了，我們希望你們要想方設法讓它的抗風係數提高，畢竟已經實際發生了，我們去做一個可能十七級風再來的話又會倒掉的東西，這個我覺得怪怪的。","最後我想請中華電信簡董事長。簡董，7月31號的大斷訊事件，其實我發覺受到困擾的人真的很多，因為是我自己的親身經歷啊，不管是產生誤會還是什麼，你知道嗎，請政府單位回里長電話，里長到下午爆氣，一通電話也沒接到，我們用LINE傳給環保局，我跟環保局說你們莫名其妙，為什麼不聯絡里長，他說打了五通都沒人接，兩邊吵來吵去，吵到最後發覺兩邊都沒錯，是中華電信發生大斷訊事件。可是我覺得很奇怪，到大概下午五點多，以我自己來講，你也沒傳簡訊給我嘛，所以我不知道你們預期我們一般人要怎麼樣知道這件事情。我們從報章媒體的披露看到大斷訊造成很多的影響，我們知道了這個訊息，但是在個人的手機部分，一般就是你們自己內部排除、去解決問題。","首先第一個問題，簡董事長，你們告訴我是系統升級，請問一下，這一類的系統升級是每一年或者一、兩年這種常態性的，還是一輩子只做一次的？常態性的嘛！那怎麼會之前都沒有發生這個問題，這次到底為什麼會發生問題？你說一下吧！"],["簡董事長志誠：跟委員報告，這個是發生在凌晨啦，因為我們升級都在凌晨，這一次的升級是針對行動語音，叫做VoLTE，只有語音部分升級，本來我們備援是四套系統加一套備援，我們是想要再多加一套，讓它更具有彈性，但是這個軟體的升級可能有一些功能沒有掌握得那麼清楚，所以當天確實在凌晨的時候整個語音部分就斷訊，從凌晨二、三點開始，我們一直修到凌晨六點就恢復了，雖然我們的系統都恢復了，但是因為很多使用者之前已經連在上面了，所以變成我們要逐一的去把它踢掉，再重新來連接，這個有兩個方法，我們系統一邊踢，另外user如果是關機的，關機再開機就恢復了，因為這個動作從六點開始一直延續到之後，所以就發生剛才委員所講的這個事件。"],["魯委員明哲：董事長，誰的責任？"],["簡董事長志誠：中華電信要來檢討這個升級為什麼會造成……"],["魯委員明哲：到底誰啦？你也不要扛責任，到底誰沒搞清楚？到底發生什麼事？這樣啦，你們回去好好研究一下，好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["魯委員明哲：過去有類似的升級，不管是各個領域都會有update嘛，升級怎麼會發生這樣一個算是非常嚴重性的問題，我覺得你們要有具體的書面報告提供給我們交通委員會，也一方面給你們自己去做精進的作為。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["魯委員明哲：我今天要說的是第二項，在斷訊發生之後，你們到六點就逐步把內部系統修復了，但我到現在還是覺得有點莫名其妙欸，你剛剛也特別說了，語音系統沒辦法使用，可是簡訊可以，因為我傳給別人簡訊人家還收到，你知道嗎？而你們只透過官方網站說明，但大家都知道，現在每一個home page網站，沒事大家要去上面看一下，每一天喔，說真的，沒有幾千人會上去的啦，流量啦。你們透過社群媒體Threads，現在年輕人很多在用啊，可是我也不太懂，你為什麼單獨在Threads上面去發布這樣一個訊息，叫使用者要開飛航模式或關機再開。我覺得最簡單、你自己可以掌控的就是所有用戶的簡訊，你們應該在第一時間發簡訊給用戶，跟他們說抱歉，並且請他使用飛航模式或者關機再開。你現在在檢討，是不是用戶簡訊應該在事件一剛開始就發？"],["簡董事長志誠：是，我們一開始，也就是隔天，在網站跟社群媒體有發布，然後新聞稿也都發布了，至於簡訊的部分，確實在第一時間也想要發簡訊，但是我們有1,100萬的用戶，所以我們的簡訊是逐批發，也怕一次發了所有人都來，又會造成系統當掉，所以簡訊是一開始就逐步有在發了。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有啦，董事長，我不覺得這是你直接的責任，但是統籌的、要負責的當然是你們董總要出來啦！"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["魯委員明哲：像這種東西很簡單嘛，以簡訊的發送來說，過去疫情期間要在瞬間告訴大家什麼事情的時候也沒斷訊啊，如果你考慮的是費用的話，真的是很不應該啦！如果說這筆費用沒人付，我不知道什麼原因，但我個人並沒有收到嘛，所以你說逐步發，逐步發到現在很多人也還是沒有收到啊！是不是為了省錢，我真的不清楚，但是你們絕對不應該這樣來處理這件事情，對你們所有的用戶來說，這是服務的一部分，這是服務成本的一部分，你在第一時間就應該對用戶發送簡訊，直接告訴你的用戶語音通話不通，請關機再開。我希望下次可以去調整，為什麼？你每一天的話務量嘛，這是你們的數字嘛，前半年每一天的平均話務量是820萬分鐘啊，就在那一整天大家斷訊了，被打擾影響的不管是國際商務，甚至醫療，你不能夠連這條錢都要省起來，我覺得這樣很不應該。我覺得這個部分，對於下次的SOP，如果再有這種情況，除非簡訊也不通，那我今天就是白講了嘛；如果簡訊能通，你第一個應該要用自己的資源通知自己的客戶，這一點你們好好去研究，好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：好，謝謝。跟委員報告，不是錢的問題，是怕發了1,000萬封簡訊之後，這1,000萬人如果同時重新關機開機，系統又會當掉，所以我們是逐批發送，跟費用沒有關係，跟委員特別報告一下。"],["魯委員明哲：好吧，那我們還沒收到簡訊的是被……那我問你，大家的手機都不通，郭國文的通不通？"],["簡董事長志誠：郭委員的不是……那是災害的時候，不是那一天。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，我是覺得這個事情有很多內容是你自己必須要去檢討的。謝謝。"],["簡董事長志誠：好，謝謝委員，我們會檢討。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的質詢。","現在請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50ce319386590ce7ec614178be66146618360071112dbfb7f3a2a4a6212d4cdfaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:53:40 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請主席邀請邱市長還有邱事務部邱政事還有我們陳代主委"},{"start":18.207,"end":40.405,"text":"市長還有代理主委早安我們今天委員會就是針對丹納斯颱風造成的通訊中斷以及整個復原或者是災後通訊搶救的機制來進行詢問我們也知道這一次的丹納斯颱風真的也是很少見的一次從西部尤其是從嘉義這邊登陸"},{"start":42.727,"end":57.711,"text":"完全沒有像說從東部的話還有中央山脈的屏障那從西部是完全沒有啦所以這樣子所造成的災害真的是特別的大尤其這次的風速也高達有到16級以上的這個強風所以這次不管是這個電力設施電線桿倒了一片那我們的這個通訊"},{"start":64.853,"end":75.257,"text":"基地台也倒了1293座的這個電信基地台所以造成很多的用戶包括固網有高達1.2萬的用戶那行動電話網路有11.6萬餘戶的這個用戶受到了這個影響所以這個對於"},{"start":82.9,"end":103.846,"text":"災民要求救也好或者是我們要去救災也好就是會受到很大的影響所以這個真的是非常的重要尤其在這期間我們還要遇到這個豪大雨所以對整個這個救災的這個通訊的需求真的非常的重要所以在這個恢復通訊的部分我們還是希望NCC跟蘇華部這邊要"},{"start":105.206,"end":126.937,"text":"加緊這個就是相關的一些措施那我們來看一下就是說這一次的一個風災也看出了我們很多地方真的還需要再加強就是這個數位韌性或這個基礎設施的部分都還要再加緊這個強化的一個部分那我們來檢討一下就是說"},{"start":127.697,"end":146.355,"text":"對於這個災史不管是天災也好或者是戰爭如果說一旦發生了造成這個通訊中斷的時候我們可以因應的緊急的處置方式我們可以看到大概就是目前是三種我不知道還有沒有其他的等一下是不是再請次長補充就是包括低軌衛星還有這個國內的漫遊"},{"start":148.957,"end":162.133,"text":"還有高空的通訊平台這三種方式那我先請教一下就是次長就是說這幾種方式在這次的丹納斯風災是否有發揮功能發揮了什麼功能是不是可以簡單說一下"},{"start":164.043,"end":184.789,"text":"跟委員報告,在低軌衛星的部分,我們現在三家電信業者各有10台的低軌衛星的行動基地台這10台行動基地台,除了一台留在南投,一台留在東部以外,28台全部投入災區去做支援"},{"start":185.709,"end":209.406,"text":"那所以實測的結果我們原來也擔心說28台都在同一個地區那根據它的設計頻寬可能會有下降但是目前測試出來的結果它的4G、5G那包含Line跟影音都是順暢的那所以以目前有限的資源在這次的救災是有盡全力的發揮作用"},{"start":210.527,"end":229.94,"text":"但是28台並沒有辦法去補1296台這個是先天上的限制我們也看到過去速發部在全國配置了700套的低軌衛星設備的部件所以我們有補助電信業者建置的30輛低軌衛星車剛剛次長有提到"},{"start":233.542,"end":240.849,"text":"那當然在這一次不管是去年的0403的這個地震去花蓮支援或者是這一次的風災確實是有發揮實質的一個成效可是我們看起來這個建置的數量仍然是不足的所以未來我們就是數化部這邊是不是會持續來補助業者進行這個低軌衛星車的建置"},{"start":257.399,"end":279.289,"text":"跟委員報告我在0403的時候我們得到的教訓就是每個區域一定要有因為0403那時候我只有一台車那我的車到花蓮花了8小時那所以記取0403的教訓所以我們今年在根據這個消防署在災害應變中心對全國的分區所以我每一區有"},{"start":280.069,"end":293.897,"text":"每一區各有一定數量的車那基本上的設計就是說當小規模的災害發生的時候每一個地方一個小時之內都會有應變車可以到但是針對這個大規模的災害的確是"},{"start":298.52,"end":324.167,"text":"個位數或死位數的車是沒有辦法解決大規模災害所以大規模災害除了衛星以外應該還要有固網跟其他的機制來協助來處理那剛剛次長回答的都是低軌衛星的部分那有關高空平台通訊平台以及國內漫遊這個部分是不是也可以請次長說一下那有關高空平台的部分那我們原來有一支計畫在"},{"start":326.148,"end":354.208,"text":"在研究高空通訊的平台那去年也在台東有做示範後來因為風太大沒有測試成功嗎它其實之前試驗的時候是成功的那正好當天風比較大那之後就沒有再測試因為那一支預算今年被刪除但是我們還是會持續在研究這個平台因為高空平台在未來六七是一個重要的重要的通訊規格之一"},{"start":355.024,"end":371.863,"text":"對是所以我們也真的是很遺憾就是高溫通訊平台我們在今年度有編了5220萬的經費結果被刪掉六成所以剩下這一點經費我覺得真的對我們要推動這樣子的一個功能真的是"},{"start":372.984,"end":389.461,"text":"可以說是捉襟見肘可能比較難施展所以我們也希望就是說未來不管是如果說有提出特別預算還是追加預算的時候我們也希望在野黨能夠支持再來有關國內漫遊的部分是不是請施展來說一下"},{"start":391.004,"end":416.449,"text":"國內漫遊的部分去年我們有一支計畫去做功能性的驗證那也在921的防災演習中有去演練那所以這個在技術上是沒有問題的那但是這個災難漫遊的權責跟法規那誠如剛剛NCC主委有提到那還有一些問題要解決那當然技術性的驗證當它規模擴大到全國"},{"start":419.89,"end":438.801,"text":"那會有其他的障礙但是如果是小規模的災區那也必須盤點到底哪些門號是要進入漫遊那這個這個需要繼續再討論那今年度的預算本來我們今年度有編一個幾千一千多萬的預算要繼續持續做演練但是那個部分的預算也被刪除了"},{"start":439.344,"end":461.852,"text":"是好這個也是令人遺憾那我們也看到了就是剛剛次長提到這一份報告的結論裡面確實有提到就是說在電信管理法裡面對於就是提供國內的這個漫遊的服務並沒有強制性所以未來這個部分是不是我們ANCC也要有積極的作為進行法規的一個修正"},{"start":462.529,"end":478.557,"text":"是跟我們報告其實法規不用修正就是因為我們現在是電信管理法第22條是借街源頭端下指令端的災防法那邊其實是有個橋接有借街的方式那我們明天就會找這個消防署來開會"},{"start":481.131,"end":507.712,"text":"確實這次有關這個漫遊的部分我們覺得真的速度是有比較慢的因為七月初發生風災一直到現在也已經一個月的時間了所以這個部分當然就是說我們也希望能夠記取教訓然後能夠在積極不管是法規面或者是技術面或者是業者之間的一個協調的部分我們希望NCC能夠要負起全責然後加緊這個腳步這樣好不好"},{"start":508.132,"end":536.74,"text":"是那跟我們報告因為這一塊在電信法時期漫遊國內漫遊其實是禁止的那所以也有相關業者因為漫遊被我們連續罰那這一塊在電信管理法是留一個空間來借機災防法那邊來處理那但是因為涉及到它本質上如果是商業間會涉及到一些商業間跟公平議題那這邊我們會一併來注意明天開會會也會找這個相關機關不管是消防署內政部消防署或者數位部門都會一起來討論"},{"start":538.816,"end":556.241,"text":"因為我們看到這個真的是天災難測所以我們也希望就是說我們在各項的這個設施就是數位的這個潤性的一個設施上我們真的要做好強化跟準備這樣才能夠降低災害因為一旦這個災害發生我想受害的就是老百姓"},{"start":556.821,"end":567.795,"text":"所以這個強化數位韌性真的很重要所以我們在這邊也是要再次的呼籲在野黨要共同支持預算因為在去年度在審查總預算的時候在速發部整個預算真的是被刪了高達六成我覺得這對我們整個強化數位韌性真的是很大的一個傷害"},{"start":576.465,"end":591.935,"text":"那最後我還有一個問題要請教就是這次的風災造成了這個通訊中斷那有的甚至到目前都還沒有辦法恢復通訊那有關這個補償的部分我們NCC是不是應該要主動來要求業者來"},{"start":595.397,"end":610.713,"text":"做處理不要讓災民自己再來就是申請那這是一部分還有一個部分就是在7月31號這個中華電信他也是無預警的斷訊了三個小時那這個我也收到了鄉親的一個陳情因為在斷訊之後有的"},{"start":617.058,"end":633.683,"text":"這個鄉親他說他昨天還收到中華電信的簡訊通知說如果收不到訊號或者是沒有收到電話就是重新開機或者是關這個啟動飛航模式之後再取消之後就可以恢復通訊了"},{"start":634.803,"end":653.314,"text":"這個都太慢了 所以也造成了一些用戶的一些損失包括我們也看到有關這個醫院 醫護人員 醫師或者是護理師有反映說這個危及到整個醫院的這個就是在搶救病人要找醫師的這個狀況 這個真的是非常的危急"},{"start":656.175,"end":678.495,"text":"那也甚至也有鄉親我也接到一個鄉親反映說他沒有接到郵局的通知導致他有一個支票漏死掉就是跳票了所以這個損失就是人民就是會遇到這些狀況所以對於這個斷訊的補償就是不管是風災造成的或者是中華電信那一天吳裕景的斷訊的一個損失我們這邊NCC會怎麼處置"},{"start":682.859,"end":699.565,"text":"是根本包括大概分幾個區塊第一個就是類法尊的部分就是我們有地基業者不管哪一家不管是天災還是自己的那個操作疏失造成的斷訊都必須要依據地形化契約的規定來抵減他的月租費"},{"start":703.126,"end":724.091,"text":"那這一塊是法尊的算是內法尊的部分我們都請封災的部分我們已經請三家業者要從寬認定那另外業者在封災期間還有主動提出主動關懷的一些措施比方說換卡免費啊還有送一些相關一些"},{"start":725.291,"end":747.077,"text":"措施那另外他們最近也在我們這個行政指導之下他們有提出一些兩個月六百分鐘的通話分工數來送那第三個部分回答委員剛剛講說中華電信7月31日語音障礙這一塊這一塊是因為是屬於那申辦作業的一些造成的異常"},{"start":747.937,"end":766.176,"text":"這個沒辦法事先得知但是我們以前以往在一些在訪應變裡頭其實中華的腳本還有其他兩家的腳本其實都有這個版本來來應變來演練那這邊我相信中華電信公司應該會記取教訓這種情況未來應該是盡可能不要再發生"},{"start":767.217,"end":792.006,"text":"當然正常的情況申板應該是從小規模來做先導性測試然後OK之後才會繼續那當然他們也有備援的體系比方說北部、南部互惠備援申板不行就會roll back到原來版本他們都有演練過那這次可能是還有新的狀況那我們已經啟動行政調查會請他們來提出報告然後希望記取教訓以後不要再發生"},{"start":792.782,"end":809.811,"text":"是 因為有關這個生本作業導致的異常那也造成很多鄉親的這個就是損失或者是不方便那不方便還好 如果造成損失有時候如果無可挽回那就真的是很大的遺憾那我們也希望就是說中華電信是國內"},{"start":811.251,"end":831.998,"text":"這個客戶用戶最多的一個電信公司所以在這部分應該要更謹慎才對就是說不管在任何的這個設備或者是軟體的更新升級上在這個作業都要有很謹慎的一個做法所以我們希望就是說在這個部分民眾受到影響的我們中華電信這邊要主動的給予補償不要再讓民眾說還要來申請或者是說還要經過什麼樣的一個程序"},{"start":839.04,"end":849.153,"text":"原業者這方面都是會自動主動來處理都是CODE底部份會下個月的帳單裡會反映出來是 好 謝謝好 謝謝陳樹業委員的執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時53分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請闕次長，還有代理主委。"],["主席：數位部闕政次，還有陳代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["闕次長河鳴：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：次長、代理主委，早安。我們今天委員會就是針對丹娜絲颱風造成的通訊中斷以及整個復原及災後通訊搶救的機制來進行詢答，我們也知道這一次丹娜絲颱風真的也是很少見，從西部，尤其是從嘉義這邊登陸，沒有像從東部的話，還有中央山脈的屏障，從西部是完全沒有，因此這樣所造成的災害真的是特別大，尤其這次的風速也有高達16級以上的強風，影響了電力設施，電線桿倒了一片，我們的通訊基地臺也倒了1,293座的電信基地臺，所以造成很多用戶，包括固網有高達1.2萬的用戶，行動電話網路有11.6萬餘戶的用戶受到了影響，這對於災民要求救也好，或者是我們要去救災也好，就是會受到很大的影響，所以這個真的是非常的重要，尤其在這段期間，我們還遇到了豪大雨，所以對整個救災的通訊需求真的非常重要，在恢復通訊的部分，我們還是希望NCC跟數發部這邊要加緊相關的一些措施。","我們來看一下，這一次的風災也看出了我們很多地方真的還需要再加強，就是關於數位韌性基礎設施的部分都還要再加緊強化。我們來檢討一下，對於災時不管是天災也好或者是戰爭，如果一旦發生了，造成通訊中斷的時候，我們看到可以因應的緊急處置方式大概目前是3種，我不知道還有沒有其他的，等一下是不是再請次長補充？包括低軌衛星，還有國內的漫遊，還有高空的通訊平台這三種方式。我先請教一下次長，這幾種方式在這次的丹娜絲風災是否有發揮功能？發揮了什麼功能，是不是可以簡單說一下？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，在低軌衛星的部分，我們現在3家電信業者各有10台的低軌衛星的行動基地台，這10台行動基地台除了1台留在南投，1台留在東部以外，28台全部投入災區去做支援，所以實測的結果，我們原來也擔心28台都在同一個地區，根據它的設計，頻寬可能會有下降，但是目前測試出來的結果，它的4G、5G、包括LINE跟影音都是順暢的，所以以目前有限的資源在這次的救災是有盡全力發揮作用，但是28台並沒有辦法去補1,296台，這個是先天上的限制。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們也看到過去數發部在全國配置了700套的低軌衛星設備的布建，所以我們有補助電信業者建置了30輛的低軌衛星車，剛剛次長有提到了，當然，不管是去年的0403地震去花蓮支援或者是這一次的風災，確實是有發揮實質的成效，可是我們看起來相關建置的數量仍然是不足的，所以未來數發部是不是會持續來補助業者進行低軌衛星車的建置？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，在0403的時候我們得到的教訓就是每個區域一定要有，因為0403那時候我只有一台車，我的車到花蓮花了8小時，記取0403的教訓，所以我們今年根據消防署在災害應變中心對全國的分區，所以我每一區各有一定數量的車，基本上的設計就是當小規模的災害發生的時候，每一個地方一個小時之內都會有應變車可以到，但是針對大規模的災害，的確個位數或十位數的車是沒有辦法解決大規模災害，所以大規模災害除了衛星以外，應該還要有固網跟其他的機制來協助處理。"],["陳委員素月：剛剛次長回答的都是低軌衛星的部分，有關高空平台、通訊平台以及國內漫遊這個部分是不是也可以請次長說一下？"],["闕次長河鳴：有關高空平台的部分，我們原來有一支計畫在研究高空通訊的平台，去年在台東也有做示範……"],["陳委員素月：可是後來因為風太大，沒有測試成功嘛！"],["闕次長河鳴：它其實之前試驗的時候是成功的，正好當天風比較大。"],["陳委員素月：是，之後就沒有再測試？"],["闕次長河鳴：因為那一支預算今年被刪除，但是我們還是會持續再研究這個平台，因為高空平台在未來6G是一個重要的通訊規格之一。"],["陳委員素月：對，所以我們也真的是很遺憾啦！就是高空通訊平台，我們在今年度有編了5,220萬的經費，結果被刪掉六成，所以剩下這一點經費，我覺得對我們要推動這樣子的一個功能，可以說是捉襟見肘，可能比較難施展，所以我們也希望未來如果有提出特別預算還是追加預算的時候，在野黨能夠支持。再來，有關國內漫遊的部分，是不是請次長說明一下？"],["闕次長河鳴：國內漫遊的部分，去年我們有一支計畫去做功能性的驗證，921的防災演習中也有去演練，所以這個在技術上是沒有問題的，但是災難漫遊的權責跟法規，誠如剛剛NCC主委有提到的，還有一些問題要解決，當然當技術性驗證的規模擴大到全國時會有其他的障礙，但是如果是小規模的災區，也必須盤點到底哪些門號是要進入漫遊的，這個需要繼續再討論。本來我們今年度有編一千多萬的預算要繼續做演練，但是那個部分的預算也被刪除了。"],["陳委員素月：好，這個也是令人遺憾！我們也看到了，就是剛剛次長提到這份報告的結論確實有提到，在電信管理法裡面，對於提供國內漫遊的服務並沒有強制性，所以未來這個部分是不是NCC也要有積極的作為，來進行法規的修正？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，其實法規不用修正，因為現在電信管理法第二十二條是介接源頭端，下指令端的災防法那邊其實是有一個介接的方式，我們明天就會找消防署來開會。"],["陳委員素月：確實這一次有關漫遊的部分，我們覺得速度真的有比較慢，因為7月初發生風災，一直到現在已經一個月的時間了，所以這個部分我們當然也希望能夠記取教訓，能夠再積極，不管是法規面，或者是技術面，或者是業者之間的協調部分，我們希望NCC能夠負起全責，然後加緊腳步，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，因為這一塊在電信法時期，國內漫遊其實是禁止的，所以也有相關業者因為漫遊被我們連續罰，這一塊在電信管理法是留了一個空間介接災防法來處理，但是因為它本質上又是商業，會涉及到一些商業競爭公平議題，這邊我們會一併注意，明天開會也會找相關機關，不管是內政部消防署或者數位部，我們都會一起來討論。"],["陳委員素月：好，因為我們看到這個真的是天災難測，所以我們也希望在各項的數位韌性設施上真的要做好強化跟準備，這樣子才能夠降低災害，因為一旦災害發生，我想受害的就是老百姓，所以強化數位韌性真的很重要，我在這邊也是要再次地呼籲在野黨要共同支持預算，因為去年度在審查總預算的時候，數發部整個預算被刪了高達六成，我覺得這對我們強化數位韌性真的是很大的傷害。","最後我還有一個問題要請教，這次的風災造成了通訊中斷，有的甚至到目前都還沒有辦法恢復通訊，有關補償的部分，NCC是不是應該要主動要求業者處理，不要讓災民再自己申請，這是一部分。還有一個部分，就是在7月31號中華電信也無預警斷訊了3個小時，我也收到了鄉親的陳情，因為在斷訊之後，有的鄉親說他昨天還收到中華電信的簡訊通知，如果收不到訊號，或者是沒有接到電話，就是重新開機，或者是啟動飛航模式之後再取消，之後就可以恢復通訊，但這些都太慢了，所以也造成了一些用戶的損失，包括我們也看到有醫院、醫護人員、醫師或者是護理師反映，有危及到整個醫院搶救病人、要找醫師的狀況，這個真的是非常危急，甚至我也接到一個鄉親反映他沒有接到郵局的通知，導致他有一張支票lose掉，就是跳票了，所以人民就是會遇到這些損失的狀況。對於斷訊的補償，不管是風災造成的，或者是中華電信那天無預警斷訊的損失，NCC會怎麼處置？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，大概分幾個區塊，第一個，有關類法遵的部分，我們有一個規定，就是不管哪一家電信業者，不管是天災，還是自己的操作疏失造成斷訊，都必須依據定型化契約的規定來抵減它的月租費，這一塊算是類法遵的部分。","至於風災的部分，我們已經請三家業者要從寬認定。另外，業者在風災期間還有提出主動關懷的一些措施，比方說換卡免費，還有送相關的優惠，另外他們最近也在我們行政指導之下，提出贈送2個月600分鐘的通話分鐘數。","第三個部分回答委員剛剛講的，中華電信7月31日語音障礙這一塊，因為是屬於升版作業造成的異常，這個沒辦法事先得知，但是我們以往在一些災防應變裡頭，其實中華或其他兩家的腳本，都有這個應變的版本來演練，我相信中華電信公司應該會記取教訓，這種情況未來應該是盡可能不要再發生，當然正常的情況，升版應該是從小規模來做先導性測試，OK之後才會繼續，當然他們也有備援的體系，比方說北部、南部互為備援，升版不行，就會rollback到原來版本，他們都有演練過，這次可能是還有新的狀況，我們已經啟動行政調查，會請他們提出報告，希望他們記取教訓，以後不要再發生。"],["陳委員素月：升版作業導致的異常，也造成很多鄉親的損失或者是不方便，不方便還好，如果造成損失，有時候如果無可挽回，就真的是很大的遺憾。中華電信是國內客戶、用戶最多的電信公司，所以我們也希望在這個部分應該要更謹慎才對，不管在任何的設備或者是軟體的更新、升級上，這些作業都要有很謹慎的作法，所以我們希望在這個部分民眾有受到影響的，中華電信要主動給予補償，不要讓民眾還要來申請，或者是還要經過什麼樣的程序，造成民怨。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：業者這方面都是會自動、主動來處理，扣抵的部分在下個月的帳單裡頭都會反映出來。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的質詢。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時7分）","繼續開會（11時18分）"],["主席：各位請就座，現在我們繼續開會。","在開會以前，我提醒陳主委跟闕政次，今天我們的主題是災民斷訊的問題，如果你們還一直在提預算的問題，我必須要糾正一下，那是兩回事。為什麼斷訊？大家要想辦法來解決，所以我希望我們委員關心的議題，你們能做到的、要做的，要迅速回答，不要在那邊拐彎抹角，扯到預算的問題，這點我要拜託。很多委員在質詢的時候，你們沒有必要去閃，我聽到最後還是又提到因為在野黨刪預算，你們才斷訊，這是不對的。所以我特別提醒兩位首長，在答詢的時候針對問題來回答，現在受災戶斷訊的問題要如何幫忙、如何解決，這是很重要的，所以我特別以主席的身分提醒兩位首長，在答詢的時候不要在那邊拐彎抹角，針對問題來解決問題，好不好？","好，現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50b84a03fd18a969c8614178be66146618360071112dbfb7f31a8b0863b4c8fed05e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麻煩請NCC代理主委好 NCC陳主委代理主委好 主要還是丹納斯風災到現在快一個月那到目前很多委員都關心那我想確認一下說三家的電信系統業者的基地台受損跟修復的狀況目前恢復的比例到多少"},{"start":30.439,"end":42.241,"text":"以涵蓋來看的話大概都恢復到債權的90%以上90%以上 對但是是什麼時間點因為已經一個月的時間了而且陸陸續續都有好大雨的產生嘛"},{"start":43.304,"end":64.726,"text":"對 大概是第二週以後就是海澱復電以後大概很快就恢復然後好雨的話又造成部分的一些災損但在這一次的過程裡面大家外界一直質疑是說NCC的速度我們的督促的速度以及說大家掌握通訊的速度甚至在第一個禮拜其實總統就已經有下鄉勘猜啦"},{"start":65.467,"end":81.467,"text":"第一個禮拜總統就已經有跟我們這個民進黨籍的委員到台南去做勘栽那那個時候其實大家都一直有反應通訊還沒有恢復完全我想知道說NCC到底什麼時間點才找三大電信業者來溝通"},{"start":83.138,"end":103.623,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在颱風發布海警的時候大概就已經我們的進駐災防中心業者也要設立一些應變小組所以那時候其實都有在協助在互動其實同步都要掌握我們的數據大概都跟業者來同步處理所以應該是說發布海警之後就已經在掌握了"},{"start":103.843,"end":120.814,"text":"主委那請教一下NCC因為對外我們一個官方的主要機關的新聞稿或處置的作為方式NCC什麼時候才發布第一則颱風過後第一則正式的新聞稿我印象中好像是七月十幾號"},{"start":121.977,"end":145.536,"text":"你在官網上面是7月10幾號嗎要不要再確認一下我只要有個21號7月21號嘛對你的最新公告看NCC的官網只有7月21號所謂的最新消息而且今天的最新消息本席剛剛稍微對了一下跟今天的專案報告的內容NCC的內容幾乎大同小異啊"},{"start":146.601,"end":168.778,"text":"你7月21號才寫出來的一個最新消息那跟今天提出來的一個數字其實也是一樣就是複製貼上跟你們報告剛才陳律師我剛才講的第二週復原之後大概都是復原的數字大概到90%都已經飽和階段後續都是比較緩慢的如果說真的飽和啦不然說實在話啦"},{"start":171.516,"end":191.955,"text":"本席剛剛一直聆聽我們很多中南部的委員的發言真的飽和的話今天中南部的委員不會那麼生氣而且那麼的要求NCC做後續的處理這一次讓外界看到就覺得是說NCC身為中央主管機關尤其是三大電信業者你應該要掌握如果說連一個中度颱風"},{"start":193.645,"end":200.962,"text":"來到了台灣就可以把我們的所有的這個資訊通訊全部都給摧毀兩個禮拜之後才看到主管機關來發布一個新聞稿"},{"start":203.529,"end":227.725,"text":"那這樣子的一個動作跟這樣的速度是讓國人沒有辦法期待其實我們跟海警知道我們是每個小時都有掌握最新的進度那這樣期間是因為業者有鼓勵 都請業者先去救災所以這一部分的新聞稿會比較晚主委很實在啊如果說陳如文剛剛講的那這樣的話就不會有災民還在總統到現場的時候去告獄狀"},{"start":229.176,"end":250.197,"text":"跟總統講說沒有通訊然後讓總統還要回覆說郭國文委員的手機可以啊如果說真的如同您剛所講的話那就不會有民進黨的委員開記者會講說電信業者責任在哪裡政府機關的監督機制在哪裡甚至綠委媒體報導都說綠委都憑這是零分的救災啊"},{"start":251.704,"end":272.144,"text":"就是因為我們第一周都是主要的市電都是台電那邊還沒恢復所以造成所以你現在是要推給台電所以現在主要責任是在台電客觀而言其實是扮演很大的角色因為另外兩家的基台很多都是在民間房子那邊蓋的它的電源是靠台電的"},{"start":273.661,"end":299.829,"text":"還有另外一個就是電線桿倒掉之後它的後傳網路光先是掛在電力桿上電力桿倒掉兩千多根如果加上雲嘉南是三千多根那一塊的也要等力桿恢復之後才能夠比較完整的一些恢復所以其實 主委我覺得剛剛非常遺憾今天到我們交通委員會的專案報告都還在互推皮球主委 那我再請教一下"},{"start":300.959,"end":320.857,"text":"上禮拜你們有提到是說台灣大跟遠傳下週三前可以啟動漫遊服務是不是這是我們要啟動這個協調機制因為在電信法實際是禁止漫遊的電信管理法有個借接災防法的所以我現在確認一下是說到底下週三前能不能啟動漫遊機制漫遊服務"},{"start":323.528,"end":341.807,"text":"如果從技術的話是可以但是會有些細節要討論我剛剛大概有跟所以已經過了快一個月的風災來了然後你上禮拜給我們看到媒體報導直接下標豪雨重創中南部通訊NCC說台灣大遠傳下週三前啟動漫遊服務"},{"start":342.908,"end":371.567,"text":"就你現在告訴我們是說還要再討論還要再協商基本上想要問的是有沒有一個SOP就未來因應什麼樣的情況我們可以啟動漫遊機制而不用像現在一樣一個月過去了還在那邊召集協商討論細節如果說第一次發生天災而沒有辦法及時跟上那是天災的問題但我們沒有辦法利用這一次的天災而記取教訓來訂立下次的SOP那以後就是人禍"},{"start":372.395,"end":374.077,"text":"所以到底所謂的台灣大跟遠傳下週三前啟動漫遊服務這是確定的還是研議中研議中"},{"start":398.604,"end":422.1,"text":"什麼時候可以研議好等到颱風過後水退了 通訊恢復了這件事情船過水無痕不是 這個機制是是個turn on的可以為未來來適用我期待啊我期待就是要訂立一個SOP這個是本席本來提出這個問題啊但是我現在聽到的是連研議中都還在討論已經過了快一個月的時間了今天來到交通委員會"},{"start":427.543,"end":438.167,"text":"結果你準備的這個回答還是這個樣子因為新人是以救災為主那當時的是以行動車 電機台來處理不要再勤勒了好不好"},{"start":439.534,"end":459.591,"text":"我們每一個人都關心救災每一個人都關心災情這一次北部的災情相對比較減弱但我們看到南部的災情我們一樣感到痛心但不是所有回答今天準備不足 準備不夠甚至現在還在研議中就一句話說我們都關心救災就可以把它推掉嗎該是誰的責任就是誰的責任"},{"start":462.349,"end":481.025,"text":"不是每一次都是來情熱我覺得民進黨政府現在最大的問題就是所有事情只要面對到你沒有辦法回答的時候就用情熱國防就說我們關心國防啊所以你只要問多問一點就是國安探索國安機密然後你只要預算不過就是你不關心災區"},{"start":484.026,"end":493.493,"text":"現在一個月了今天跟你講是說我都很客氣的講因為我剛看了這一份報告就跟7月21號你們的新聞稿就是幾乎一樣"},{"start":495.256,"end":514.623,"text":"甚至你新聞稿上面我都不好意思講你新聞稿上面寫是說你們出動53台的基地台基地行動車結果現在最高峰那你今天報告寫什麼43台你連這個數字你都對不上沒有那是最高峰時期曾經出動那後來因為那你今天的這個"},{"start":517.199,"end":529.146,"text":"我都不好意思吐槽你你今天的報告就是單日最高43台對那是高峰時期那你的新聞稿你的7月21號新聞稿上面寫53台那是連時站台的數目字不一樣連這個都可以凹就對了沒有主委是"},{"start":538.419,"end":554.333,"text":"新聞稿的內容跟今天的報告今天的報告已經比新聞稿7月21晚了兩個禮拜出來照理講今天的報告會比新聞台 7月21號新聞稿更加的嚴謹但我講數字的部分以及這裡面80% 90%都是複製貼上"},{"start":557.987,"end":572.897,"text":"我們要看的不是今天你只是來鎮定宣導我們要看到是你到底怎麼樣因應這次7月6號這個風災之後然後來給未來更多中南部以及我們全台灣可能各地都有發生這樣通訊的狀況"},{"start":574.398,"end":597.648,"text":"NCC有提出比較超前的方向未來可能因應到這種狀況基地台有沒有辦法運作或者甚至你講就是說電感如果說真的因為這樣子倒塌而我們怎麼樣有一個SOP當倒塌幾根或是範圍涵蓋多少或者是有多少人受影響的時候三大業者可以啟動漫遊服務這是一個SOP這是一個客專數字"},{"start":599.484,"end":626.197,"text":"這樣子就不用說未來在因為一開始的時候媒體沒有報導或是一開始的時候大家只想著說怎麼樣下去擺拍我們看到照片誰卡誰的頭誰卡誰的臉不是啊 災民的生活才是真真正正最需要的啊那只有你今天告訴我們說都還在研議中漫遊服務什麼都還在研議中然後現在只是一直在爭是說一直在情樂"},{"start":628.339,"end":630.343,"text":"我們會細心檢討 謝謝委員所以我最後請教一下抱歉 稍微一分鐘的時間"},{"start":636.684,"end":658.593,"text":"NCC委員名單我想本席也一直在關心7月31號我也看了因為去年的731就是當時四位委員到期日所以整整一年了直到今年的731行政院才真的千呼萬喚使出來把名單送出來名單看秀出來有沒有送到立法院我們現在還不確定"},{"start":659.944,"end":688.773,"text":"但是上面馬上被人家抓包是說五月的時候其實就已經有確定這個名單了所以過去這兩個月的時間壓著請教代理主委知情嗎因為這份權責不在NCC這邊這邊我並不清楚所以過去我也問過你一樣問題行政院長有沒有找你溝通找你詢問過NCC的業務有沒有停擺或說NCC能不能現在不過半的委員能不能運作也都沒有跟你諮詢過"},{"start":690.241,"end":717.142,"text":"有問過 但是提名部分沒有講什麼事情沒有講委員提名部分沒有提那委員他的進度是什麼那個時候問過你 問你的時候然後你有沒有跟他回應是說那你有沒有試著請教一下說那長官權責在你那你的委員提名人選進度是什麼我沒有循序來反映過然後咧反映結果咧已讀不回"},{"start":718.974,"end":745.369,"text":"直到7月31號這部分我沒有立場回應所以你也不知道那個名單嘛你也是跟我們大家都一樣都是看到行政院7月31號的時候你才知道說原來有四位委員是那你也是看到那一天送出來的名單之後才知道說原來五月的時候這四位委員已經徵詢了我想我的了解程度大概跟委員一樣情何以堪啊"},{"start":748.154,"end":773.167,"text":"但是主委本期還是最後一句話忠告大家人在公門好休息我們都一樣是要為中華民國國民做事為台灣2350萬人做事再為一天就要把一天的責任給做好災民的痛苦以及NCC所有業務不是說用這種話術或是說配合現在執政黨帶風向就可以帶過"},{"start":774.465,"end":790.475,"text":"NCC一開始跟我們講iPhone可能沒有辦法上市Switch可能沒有辦法上市如今一一都被打臉那過去一整年四位NCC委員都選缺的情況下你到底要講是說是留下你們這三位"},{"start":791.343,"end":810.043,"text":"很認真還是根本NCC只要三位就夠根本包括那個攝影器殘是因為我們在去年7月31號以前有修改的這個這個你們有講過了但是你們在一開始的時候就已經一直一而再再而三地一直在說謊講說這樣子有可能iPhone跟Switch就沒有辦法上市這也是之後你們才講出來的謊說實在話"},{"start":817.85,"end":844.629,"text":"主委是最後請教你的所謂的漫遊的這個機制什麼時候可以送出來什麼時候可以讓國人知道確定未來當發生任何情況的話可以啟動所謂的漫遊機制剛才包括因為這塊涉及到相關部會我會儘快因為明天就會開會明天開會對最快什麼時候因為這一次的災民到底用不用得到啦我這樣講還是你想要拖過這一次"},{"start":846.219,"end":873.138,"text":"有可能用 但是要看這個相關部會如果說要用的話 你萬事莫如舊火 你就應該要盡速的訂立各業者有什麼樣的一個因應拿出來甚至我剛剛講的受災超過多少人 用戶影響多少人的時候 就可以啟動漫遊機制委員講的這個SOP就是我們開會的重點之一那什麼時候可以訂出來我們看明天開會的結果我們盡快"},{"start":876.789,"end":893.608,"text":"不要讓我們這一次的災民用不到不要讓大家覺得說你們是在虛隱故事不要讓大家覺得你們只是在應付了事我們是最起碼要為建立未來通案的一些SOP謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":361,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時37分）謝謝主席，麻煩請NCC代理主委。"],["主席：NCC陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：代理主委好。主要還是丹娜絲風災到現在快1個月了，目前有很多委員都關心，那我想確認一下3家電信系統業者基地台受損跟修復的狀況，目前恢復的比例到多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：以涵蓋來看的話，大概都恢復到災前的90%以上。"],["洪委員孟楷：90%以上？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是這是在什麼時間點？因為已經1個月的時間了，而且陸陸續續都有豪大雨的產生。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，大概是第二週以後，就是在台電復電以後大概很快就恢復了，然後豪雨又造成部分的一些災損。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是在這一次的過程裡面，外界一直質疑NCC督促的速度以及大家掌握通訊的速度，甚至在第一個禮拜其實總統就已經有下鄉勘災了，在第一個禮拜總統就已經有跟民進黨籍的委員到臺南去勘災，在那個時候其實大家都一直有反映通訊還沒有完全恢復，那我想知道NCC到底是在什麼時間點才找三大電信業者來溝通？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，其實我們在颱風發布海警的時候大概就已經進駐災防中心，業者也要設立一些應變小組，所以那時候其實就有在協作、在互動，其實同步都要掌握，我們的數據大概都跟業者來同步處理，所以應該是說在發布海警之後就已經在掌握了。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，NCC是我們一個官方的主要機關，關於你們對外發布新聞稿或是處置的作為方式，請教NCC在颱風過後是什麼時候才發布第一則正式的新聞稿？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我印象中好像是七月十幾號。"],["洪委員孟楷：你在官網上面是七月十幾號嗎？要不要再確認一下？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：總共有兩次，我知道有一個是21號。"],["洪委員孟楷：7月21號嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：關於你們的最新公告，我看NCC的官網只有7月21號所謂的最新消息，而且本席剛剛稍微對了一下今天的最新消息跟今天NCC專案報告的內容，幾乎是大同小異啊！你7月21號才寫出來的最新消息，那跟今天提出來的數字其實也是一樣，就是複製、貼上。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，誠如我剛剛講的，在第二週台電復電之後，復原的速度大概就是90%以上，都已經是飽和階段，後續都是一些比較緩慢的優化。"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，本席剛剛一直聆聽我們很多中南部委員的發言，如果真的飽和的話，今天中南部的委員不會那麼生氣，而且那麼的要求NCC做後續的處理。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對……"],["洪委員孟楷：這一次讓外界看到以後就覺得NCC身為中央主管機關，尤其是對三大電信業者你應該要掌握，如果連一個中度颱風來到臺灣，就可以把我們所有的資訊、通訊全部都摧毀，在兩個禮拜之後才看到主管機關發布一個新聞稿，這樣的動作跟這樣的速度沒有辦法符合國人的期待。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實我們在發布海警之後是每個小時都有掌握最新的進度，在這段期間因為都是請業者先去救災，所以這一部分的新聞稿會比較晚。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，說實在的，如果就如你剛剛講的，這樣就不會有災民在總統到現場的時候去告御狀，跟總統說沒有通訊，然後讓總統還要回復他說：郭國文委員的手機可以啊！如果真的如同您剛剛所講的話，那就不會有民進黨的委員開記者會講：電信業者的責任在哪裡？政府機關的監督機制在哪裡？甚至媒體報導說綠委都評這是零分的救災。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這是因為我們第一週主要的市電都是台電那邊還沒有恢復，所以造成有些業者的站臺……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在是要推給台電，現在主要的責任是在台電？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：客觀而言，確實是扮演很大的角色，因為另外兩家的基地臺有很多都是在民間房子那邊蓋的，它的電源是靠台電的。還有另外一個就是在電桿倒掉之後，它的後傳網路光纖是掛在電桿上，電桿倒掉了兩千多根，如果加上雲嘉南是三千多根，那一塊也要等電桿恢復之後才能夠比較完整的恢復。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我覺得非常的遺憾，今天到我們交通委員會來做專案報告，可是都還在互推皮球。主委，我再請教一下，上禮拜你們有提到台灣大跟遠傳在下週三前可以啟動漫遊服務，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是我們要啟動這個協調機制，因為在電信法時期是禁止漫遊的，電信管理法有一個介接災防法的空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我現在要確認一下，到底在下週三前能不能啟動漫遊服務？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果純技術的話是可以，但是會有一些細節需要討論，我剛剛大概有跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：在風災以後已經過了快1個月，然後你上禮拜給我們看到，媒體報導直接下標：「豪雨重創中南部通訊，NCC：台灣大、遠傳下週三前啟動漫遊服務」，結果你現在告訴我們還要再討論、還要再協商！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，在這段期間……"],["洪委員孟楷：其實本席想要問的是有沒有一個SOP？就是在未來因應什麼樣的情況我們可以啟動漫遊機制，而不用像現在一樣，1個月都過去了，還在那邊召集協商、討論細節？如果第一次發生天災而沒有辦法及時跟上，那是天災的問題，但我們沒有辦法利用這一次的天災而記取教訓來訂立下次的SOP，那以後就是人禍欸！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，跟委員報告兩個部分，第一個部分，在兩週以前，大概因為業者用臨時站臺方式來恢復涵蓋，然後持續靠行動車跟旁邊的基地臺調整天線角度來優化，那在這段期間災區其實是有訊號的。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你可不可以直接回答問題？所以到底所謂的台灣大跟遠傳下週三前啟動漫遊服務是確定了還是研議中？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：研議中。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以研議好？等到颱風過後、水退了、通訊恢復了，這件事情船過水無痕？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，這個機制是通案的，可以在未來來適用。"],["洪委員孟楷：我期待要訂立一個SOP，本席本來是要提出這個問題，但是我現在聽到的是在研議中，都還在討論，已經過了快1個月的時間了！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，因為這涉及跨部會。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天來到交通委員會，結果你準備的回答還是這個樣子。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為先前是以救災為主，當時是以行動車跟基地臺來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，不要再情勒了好不好？我們每一個人都關心救災，每個人都關心災情，這次北部的災情相對比較不嚴重，但是我們看到南部的災情也一樣感到痛心，你們不能今天對所有問題都準備不足，甚至回答說現在還在研議中，只說「我們都關心救災」這一句話就可以把它推掉嗎？該是誰的責任就是誰的責任，不是每一次都是來情勒。我覺得民進黨政府現在最大的問題，就是所有事情只要面對到你沒有辦法回答的時候就用情勒，像是我們關心國防，但只要多問一點，你就說是探索國安機密，然後只要預算不過，就說我們不關心災區。現在一個月了，今天跟你講，我都很客氣地講，因為我剛剛看了，這一份報告就跟你們7月21號的新聞稿幾乎一樣，甚至新聞稿上面，我都不好意思講，你們的新聞稿上面是寫說你們出動53臺的行動基地臺車……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：最高峰。"],["洪委員孟楷：最高峰，那你今天的報告寫什麼？43臺，連這個數字你都對不上！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，那是最高峰時期曾經出動，後來因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：來、來、來、來，你今天的報告，我都不好意思吐槽你，你今天的報告就是寫單日最高43臺。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，那是高峰時期。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們7月21號的新聞稿上面寫53臺。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那是臨時站臺的數目字，不一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：連這個都可以拗就對了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，新聞稿的內容跟今天的報告，今天的報告已經比721的新聞稿晚兩個禮拜出來，照理講今天的報告會比7月21號的新聞稿更加嚴謹，但我講數字的部分以及這裡面80%、90%都是複製貼上，我們要看到的不是今天你只是來政令宣導，我們要看到的是你到底要怎麼樣因應，這次7月6號風災之後，未來中南部以及全臺灣可能各地都會發生這樣的通訊狀況，我們希望NCC能夠提出比較超前的方向，未來因應這種狀況，基地臺有沒有辦法運作，或者甚至像你講的電桿真的因為這樣而倒塌，是不是能夠有一個SOP，當倒塌幾根或是範圍涵蓋多少，或是有多少人受影響的時候，三大業者可以啟動漫遊服務？這是一個SOP、這是一個客觀數字，這樣未來就不用……因為一開始的時候媒體沒有報導，或是一開始的時候，大家只想著怎麼樣去擺拍，我們看到照片，誰卡誰的頭、誰卡誰的臉，不是啊！災民的生活復原才是真真正正最需要的啊。結果你今天告訴我們說都還在研議中，漫遊服務什麼都還在研議中，然後現在只是一直在爭、一直在情勒。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會虛心檢討，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：抱歉，召委，再給我1分鐘的時間。主委，我最後請教一下，NCC的委員名單本席也一直在關心，7月31號，我也看了，因為去年的731就是當時四位委員的到期日，已經整整一年了，直到今年的731，行政院才千呼萬喚始出來，真的把名單show出來，有沒有送到立法院，我們現在還不確定，但是馬上被人家抓包說5月的時候其實就已經有確定這個名單了，所以過去這兩個月的時間壓著，請教代理主委知情嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分權責不在NCC這邊，這邊我並不清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去我也問過你一樣的問題嘛，行政院長有沒有找你溝通、找你詢問過NCC的業務有沒有停擺，或是NCC現在不過半的委員能不能運作，也都沒有跟你諮詢過？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有問過，但是提名的部分沒有講。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼事情沒有講？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員提名部分沒有提。"],["洪委員孟楷：委員的部分，他的進度是什麼？那時問你的時候，你有沒有跟他回應、有沒有試著請教一下說：長官，權責在你，你的委員提名人選進度是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們有循著行政體系來反映過。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後呢？反映結果呢？已讀不回，直到7月31號？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分我沒有立場回應。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你也不知道那個名單嘛，你也是跟我們大家都一樣，都是看到行政院7月31號公布，你才知道原來有四位委員？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：你也是看到那一天送出來的名單之後，才知道原來5月的時候已經徵詢這四位委員了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我想我的了解程度大概跟委員一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：情何以堪啊！代理主委，本席還是最後一句話忠告，人在公門好修行，我們都一樣，是要為中華民國國民做事、為臺灣2,350萬人做事，在位一天就要把一天的責任給做好，災民的痛苦以及NCC所有業務，不是說用這種話術或是說配合現在執政黨帶風向就可以帶過，NCC一開始跟我們講iPhone可能沒有辦法上市、Switch可能沒有辦法上市，如今都一一被打臉。過去一整年，四位NCC委員都懸缺的情況下，你到底要講說是留下你們這三位，很認真，還是根本NCC只要三位就夠？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，有關射頻器材的部分，是因為我們在去年7月31號以前有修改子法的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個你們有講過了，但是你們在一開始的時候就已經一而再、再而三地一直在說謊，說這樣有可能iPhone跟Switch都沒有辦法上市，這也是之後你們才講出來的謊，說實在話。","主委，最後請教，你的所謂的漫遊機制什麼時候可以送出來？什麼時候可以讓國人知道、確定未來發生什麼樣的情況可以啟動所謂的漫遊機制？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，因為這塊涉及到相關部會，我會儘快，因為我們明天就會開會，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：明天開會？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：最快什麼時候？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：這一次的災民到底用不用得到？還是你想要拖過這一次？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有可能用得到，但是要看相關部會的……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果要用的話，萬事莫如救火急，你就應該要儘速訂立，各業者有什麼樣的因應，拿出來，甚至像我剛剛講的，受災超過多少人、影響多少用戶的時候，就可以啟動漫遊機制。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，委員講的SOP就是我們開會的重點之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那什麼時候可以訂出來？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：看明天開會的結果，我們儘快。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要讓這一次的災民用不到，不要讓大家覺得你們是在虛應故事，不要讓大家覺得你們只是在應付了事，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報告委員，沒有，我們最起碼要建立未來通案的一些SOP。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","特別跟陳主委建議，因為現在在技術上沒有問題，但是法規部分確實有待商討，但不要忘了，洪委員在乎的就是受災老百姓的通訊權利，救災跟救命是完全一樣。所以我要拜託主委，你已經答應今天要開會，現在就是認證的問題，漫遊技術沒有問題，就是法規認證的問題，所以應該要針對這個問題，其實你在這段代理時間的表現，是針對問題來解決問題，我個人認為你較沒有什麼政治性的決策，還算是蠻稱職的代理主委，所以我要拜託，洪委員建議的這些事項還有所有委員的建議，要儘快，刻不容緩，趕快，漫遊技術沒有問題，是法規的問題，要如何去做，就尋求行政院來跨部會協調，這個問題應該很快就可以解決，因為每一位委員在乎的是這個，好不好？主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["主席：接下來請陳素月委員質詢，陳素月委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘。","現在請陳素月委員質詢，"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163337","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163337","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50b05676ee8d468901614178be66146618360071112dbfb7f3dea26643c0888b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:23:52 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有8台有衛星的8台有衛星的啦那就是一般的行動訊號車啦"},{"start":213.305,"end":236.526,"text":"但是台客大跟遠傳就沒有了啊?遠傳也有各10台衛星的有幾台?有幾台?各10台,3加30台拍到災區呢?最高峰時期他們遠傳全部拍進去,台客大也全部拍進去,後來遠傳燒掉一台那個是衛星的行動車嗎?"},{"start":238.394,"end":248.22,"text":"衛星的行動車這個是數碼簿有補助衛星的行動車數碼簿有補助給電競公司來購買補助衛星跟衛星的通訊費通訊車其實我們發現債券是源源不足如果像這麼大運氣同時"},{"start":260.683,"end":286.847,"text":"因為行動訊號之後 它的範圍比較小啦有效範圍比較小啦所以你頂多在部落跟部落中間 你大概就不通了啦然後後來啊 恢復通訊最快的大概是中國電信了我們才了解到 因為中國電信基礎設施做得比較早先天性也比較強啦所以它的線路都在那裡嘛都地下纜線啦 比較普遍"},{"start":288.288,"end":304.079,"text":"那其他兩家就不行啦 中華電信那個 那台客大跟遠傳啊 差不多都 日本人都掛在電話條啦電話條如果倒了齁 電話就不通了啦台客大跟遠傳就不通了啦我不曉得 當時他們拿到這個執照齁我了解是沒有強制性 但是他們的一個責任應該是要強化一些基礎建設法 是不是這樣子我繼續回答一下"},{"start":316.936,"end":345.064,"text":"對 有要求他們做 比方說偏鄉建設多少基站 那些都有要求那這次檢驗起來根本沒有他們當初的那個偏鄉的義務大概都有達成都沒有達成 全部都遭頂位調你不用幫他們講話啦是公法部分啦 公法部分沒有特別要求公法部分當然是要點啦 重點啦而且喔 我們那個也沒有要求到他抗災的係數啦所以我在那個記者會我都有提出來啦"},{"start":346.723,"end":374.494,"text":"因為這基礎建設差太多了其實三家電線應該都賺錢吧主委 都大賺錢啦大賺錢這幾個社會你應該做到要回饋的啊我不是在廣告啊 但是我的門號我已經轉到中華電線了我感覺差太多了 這緊急時候你要用啊所以最早全面恢復通訊的大概就是中華電線了那我們希望啊"},{"start":375.427,"end":390.221,"text":"其他兩家要趕快追上來因為這個有市場競爭的問題啊人家做得到啊 你做不到那你在市場怎麼競爭平常我們不會感受得到啦你碰一下電視你講過喔 三間都說他二位都二位對不對三間都說他台灣第一名啦"},{"start":393.387,"end":404.338,"text":"真正的災難來檢驗就發現這個基本設施差很多所以我現在在記者會上我也請恩欣欣 蘇華部這邊協助可以再繼續補助他們買衛星的行動基地台"},{"start":410.029,"end":437.937,"text":"後面有這樣的計畫嗎跟我們報告在今年下半年的第五期前瞻我們已經規劃三家會各增加三台再各增加三台對然後再來就是說它原來的沒有衛星的車子因為剛剛我有說過我們今年並沒有新的衛星但是我們會先把架子裝好那不管再來有新的one wave衛星或其他的衛星都能夠快速的裝到這些車子上面去一台衛星行動車大概多少錢"},{"start":440.778,"end":466.278,"text":"車子全部大概要1100萬到1500萬那衛星的部分大概要300萬左右那我們補助多少我們補助49%一半嘛 業者負擔一半嘛這個應該 你要以整個整理台灣來計算這個數量喔 我想你整個台灣才10幾台你怎麼算 你現在補助10台嘛你要不要再補助3台"},{"start":468.447,"end":493.298,"text":"對這個速度是遠遠不夠但是因為我手上預算就這麼多另外另外我也要求啦希望說他們現在要再後重修嘛應該提高他們基地台的抗災能力啦什麼抗災能力例如你要抵擋到15級風啦15級風啦不斷電系統可以至少撐72小時"},{"start":495.512,"end":523.271,"text":"你要有一個數字化的一個管控來 陳主委是的 當然在我們的那個神經辦法空氣型機器台抗風級數15級這個已經在法規已經在實施當中但是更早以前的部分是當時還沒有這個規範所以我現在要求要把它納入法規裡面要求我們業者要做到因為15級風你大概幾十年才會遇到一次"},{"start":524.778,"end":534.173,"text":"這個已經非常高的一個標準了再來就是它不斷電的系統還有就是跟一些光藍的 地下染性的這個地下化"},{"start":535.862,"end":564.107,"text":"還有一些重要的節點這個我也跟交通部工種談過啦因為當然不是所有的地方都可以地下化因為淹水的地方就不可以了不然你淹水就淹到路邊了但是比較不淹水的地方就是阻幹線應該要走過去所有的省道就是工種罐的道路上 台17 台19那個大概雲嘉嵐都有啦 整條山的要先走啦那未來我們就提到啦國家"},{"start":565.642,"end":590.371,"text":"這個數位安全韌性其實我們剛剛幾個委員也有關心到就所謂災難的漫遊啦這個我覺得我們相關業者大家要談一下啦我們現在國內還不能不同電信公司之間的漫遊是不是這樣對 商業漫遊 運動站是不行的是不行嘛 就是說今天三間都壞了 那又沒話講"},{"start":592.945,"end":619.315,"text":"如果還有一家還可以用那其他就可以過來漫遊有沒有這樣的一個考量有這個空間就是災防法可以借接文電信管理法第22條可以處理這個部分細節部分我想也請我們相關單位大家再來研商另外一個就是所謂的公共安全和應變的通訊系統這個在美國英國在國外最近都開始建制了"},{"start":621.294,"end":646.052,"text":"尤其我們在台灣 我們台灣目前的今天在台灣辦公室有來我們台灣目前的警政 消防 醫療 還有地方政府都演播同樣的通訊系統 你知道嗎是不是這樣對 他們都用專用電信 都自己的裝飾 對所以這個要整合啦這個要整合啦 因為你如果是在救災 你像這次災難"},{"start":648.376,"end":676.492,"text":"整體救難部隊進來他有各式各樣不同的系統有警政 有消防 有醫療還有電影廠會自己派來的結果他們的通信都完全不同的系統要找人調度 這個會有問題所以還有目前的這些系統雖然第一個他們系統都不同第二個 他們的系統都是依賴商用網路"},{"start":677.742,"end":698.117,"text":"金融署都是走電信公司的所以他如果集體來斷訊,我們這裡救生會都會不規範沒有自己獨立一個所謂的公共安全的一個通訊系統所以美國現在韓國,韓國也是一個有安全意識的國家"},{"start":699.246,"end":717.026,"text":"有危機意識的國家 香港沒有建立自己的PVDR的系統我們台灣沒有 就所謂的公共安全跟救難應變系統這個我也希望相關單位 大家應該盡速來處理啦大家 過去沒有做到啦 那我們現在竟然要做國家安全任性你現在不可以在那裡擱落還有啦"},{"start":720.746,"end":743.702,"text":"蘇華部的預算我知道你今天比較困難啦蘇華部有一塊那個 蔣補助會啦總預算被刪了35億8嘛被刪了快40%啦那這裡面很多就是數位任性蔣補助會被刪了8億多啦就是數位任性和資訊安全啦後面的工作都需要這些預算啦"},{"start":745.06,"end":770.698,"text":"我們也希望這個在野政黨大家可以以這次的災情來做一個檢驗考量這個是國家所需要的增強安全韌性的基礎建設這個不只是暫時天災來的時候就可以發現沒有這些東西我們其實基礎建設有很大一個落差有南北的落差也有城鄉的落差"},{"start":772.506,"end":779.837,"text":"我們希望我們相關單位大家來謝謝委員幫我們說明好我們就謝謝相關單位謝謝三位謝謝主席謝謝林靜憲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時23分）感謝主席，本席邀請NCC陳主委，還有數發部闕次長。"],["主席：陳主委、數位部闕政次。"],["林委員俊憲：闕政次，還有中華電信簡董事長。"],["主席：中華電信簡董事長。","還沒有質詢以前，特別跟大會報告，陳素月委員質詢完畢後，我們休息10分鐘。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主席。3位好，臺南在7月6號晚上颱風衝上來，那是禮拜天晚上，到7月7號禮拜一早上，我想一夜之間同時造成的災難，恐怕是臺灣大概有史以來最嚴重的。我稍微統計一下數字，市話的固網斷了一萬二千多戶，行動基地臺壞了快要1,300座，基地臺都壞掉了，網路受影響的大概有11萬6,000戶，有線電視斷訊大概三萬八千多戶。","我在7月7日當天早上就到災區去了，進去以後沿線看到電線桿倒了一片，電線桿大概倒了一千六百多支，所以很多路都不通，我繞路繞半天。繞路的時候我需要什麼？我就需要用Google Maps，因為都是鄉間小路，結果發現完全沒有訊號。好不容易到達了災區，才發現停電、停水、沒有訊號、沒有有線電視，等於是資訊孤島，這種狀況最嚴重的地方持續了七、八天。","當然，水、電及電訊復原的時間不大一樣，災民怎麼辦？第一個，他們沒辦法生活，因為沒水、沒電，也不知道外面發生什麼事；他們的家人要關心他們，電話也打不通，鄉下都住著老人及幼童，出外工作的子女想打電話回家卻打不通，老人想打電話出去也打不通；要不然看一下電視看看外面的世界怎麼了，有線電視又斷了，又沒有電視可看了，那種恐慌，我想就算是戰爭都不一定會造成這種慘狀，所以這也可以檢驗我們國家基礎建設的韌性。","我們今天要來討論電信、通訊的問題。我在上上禮拜跟郭國文委員召開一場記者會，我們大概檢討一下、做了幾個結論。因為現在斷訊了，要趕快恢復訊號，所以三大電信公司──中華電信、台哥大及遠傳就開始派一些行動車去。當然，到災區數量最多的是中華電信，中華電信好像派了3臺衛星行動車？"],["簡董事長志誠：總共派了17臺，8臺有衛星的。"],["林委員俊憲：8臺有衛星的，剩下的就是一般的行動訊號車。但是台哥大及遠傳就沒有，他們都派了幾臺？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：遠傳也有各10臺衛星。"],["林委員俊憲：有衛星的有幾臺？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：各10臺，3家30臺……"],["闕次長河鳴：3家28臺。"],["林委員俊憲：派到災區耶？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：最高峰時期，遠傳全部派進去，台哥大也全部派進去，後來遠傳燒掉1臺。"],["林委員俊憲：那個是衛星的行動車嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["林委員俊憲：衛星的行動車，數發部有補助嘛，有沒有？"],["闕次長河鳴：對，行動車是數發部補助的。"],["林委員俊憲：衛星的行動車，數發部有補助給電信公司購買嘛？"],["闕次長河鳴：補助衛星、衛星的通訊費，還有車子。"],["林委員俊憲：通訊車嘛？"],["闕次長河鳴：嗯。"],["林委員俊憲：其實我們發現在災區是遠遠不足，如果像這麼大面積，因為行動訊號車的有效範圍比較小，所以頂多在部落跟部落中間大概就不通了。","後來恢復通訊最快的大概是中華電信，我們才瞭解到因為中華電信基礎設施做得比較早，先天性也比較強，所以線路都走地下的，地下纜線比較普遍。其他兩家就不行了，台哥大及遠傳在我們那邊差不多都是把線路掛在電線桿上，電線桿如果倒了，電話就不通了，台哥大和遠傳就不通了。我不曉得當時他們拿到這個執照……就我瞭解是沒有強制性的，但是他們的責任應該要強化基礎建設，是不是這樣子？NCC回答一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，有要求他們做比方偏鄉要建設多少基站，那些都有要求。"],["林委員俊憲：這次檢驗起來，根本沒有。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他們當初的偏鄉義務大概都有達成。"],["林委員俊憲：都沒有達成，全部都走電線桿，你不用幫他們講話啦。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這是工法的部分，工法的部分沒有特別要求。"],["林委員俊憲：工法的部分當然是要點、重點。而且也沒有要求它抗災的係數，我在那個記者會都有提出來，基礎建設差太多了。主委，其實3家電信公司都賺錢吧？都賺大錢吧？他們賺大錢，基於社會責任，就應該要回饋。我不是在廣告，但是我的手機門號已經轉到中華電信，我覺得差太多了，這是緊急的時候要用的。所以最早全面恢復通訊的大概就是中華電信，我們希望其他兩家趕快追上，這是市場競爭的問題，人家做得到，你做不到，你在市場怎麼競爭？平常我們不會感受到，電視廣告的時候，3家電信業者都說他們多厲害、多厲害，對不對？3家業者都說他們是臺灣第一名，但是真正遇到災難來檢驗，就發現基礎設施差很多。所以我在記者會上也請NCC、數發部協助，可以再繼續補助他們買衛星的行動基地臺，後面有這樣的計畫嘛？"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，在今年下半年第5期前瞻計畫中，我們已經規劃3家會各增加3臺。"],["林委員俊憲：各增加3臺嘛？"],["闕次長河鳴：對。再來，原來沒有衛星的車子，剛剛我有說過，我們今年並沒有新的衛星，但是我們會先把架子裝好，不管再來有新的OneWeb衛星或其他的衛星，都能夠快速地裝到這些車子上面。"],["林委員俊憲：1臺衛星行動車大概多少錢？"],["闕次長河鳴：車子全部大概要1,100萬到1,500萬，衛星的部分大概要300萬左右。"],["林委員俊憲：你們補助多少？"],["闕次長河鳴：我們補助49%。"],["林委員俊憲：一半嘛，業者負擔一半。"],["闕次長河鳴：對。"],["林委員俊憲：你應該以整體臺灣來計算，以這個數量來看，整個臺灣才十幾臺，這樣算起來，你們現在補助10臺，後面再補助3臺……"],["闕次長河鳴：對，這個速度是遠遠不夠，但是因為我們手上的預算就這麼多……"],["林委員俊憲：好。另外，我也要求，他們現在要災後重修，應該提高他們基地臺的抗災能力。所謂的抗災能力，例如要能夠抵擋15級風，不斷電系統至少可以撐72小時，你們要有一個數字化的管控。請陳主委回答。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，根據我們的審議辦法，控制型基地臺抗風級數15級已經是法規規定，在實施當中，但是更早以前的部分，當時還沒有這個規範。"],["林委員俊憲：所以我現在要求要納入法規裡面，並要求業者要做到，因為15級風大概幾十年才會遇到一次，這個已經是非常高的標準了。","再來就是不斷電系統，還有就是光纜、纜線的地下化，以及重要的節點。我也跟交通部公總談過，當然不是所有的地方都可以地下化，會淹水的地方就不可以，不然淹水以後反而更嚴重，但是比較不容易淹水的地方，主幹線應該要走過去所謂的省道，就是公總主管的道路，譬如臺17、臺19，那個大概雲嘉南都有了，是整條線，要先做。","提到國家數位安全韌性，剛剛幾位委員也有關心到所謂災難的漫遊，我覺得相關業者大家要談一下。現在國內還不能進行不同電信公司之間的漫遊，是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，商業漫遊原則上是不行的。"],["林委員俊憲：是不行嘛。也就是說，如果今天3家都壞了，那沒話講，如果有1家還可以用，其他的就可以過來漫遊，有沒有這樣的考量？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有這個空間，就是災防法可以介接電信管理法第二十二條，可以處理。"],["林委員俊憲：細節部分也請相關單位大家再來研商。另外一個就是公共安全和應變的通訊系統，美國、英國等等國外最近都開始建置了，尤其我們在臺灣……今天災防辦公室有來，我們臺灣目前的警政、消防、醫療及地方政府都使用不同的通訊系統，你們知道嗎？是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，他們都用專用電信，都是自己專屬的。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這個要整合，因為如果要救災，像這次災難，整體救難部隊進來，他們有各式各樣不同的系統，有警政、消防、醫療，還有地方政府自己派來的人，結果他們的通訊都是完全不同的系統，要找人、調度會有問題。還有，像目前的這些系統，第一個是他們的系統都不同，第二個是他們的系統都依賴商用網路，他們那時候也是都走電信公司的，所以如果基地臺斷訊，我們這些救災系統就整個壞掉，沒有一個自己獨立的公共安全通訊系統。像韓國是一個有安全意識的國家、有危機意識的國家，韓國也有建立自己的PPDR系統，就是所謂的公共安全與救難應變系統，可是我們臺灣沒有，所以我希望相關單位要儘速來處理，大家過去沒有做到，那我們現在既然要做國家安全韌性，你對這個部分就要考慮進來。還有，我知道數發部的預算今年比較困難，數發部有一些獎補助費，總預算被刪了35億8，被刪了快40%，這裡面有很多就是數位韌性，獎補助費被刪了八億多，就是數位韌性跟資訊安全，你們後面的工作都需要這些預算，那我們也希望在野政黨大家可以以這次的災情來做一個檢驗、考量，這個是國家為了增強安全韌性所需要做的基礎建設，這個不只是暫時的，在天災來的時候，我們就可以發現沒有這些東西，其實我們的基礎建設有很大的落差，有南北的落差，也有城鄉的落差，所以我們希望相關單位大家……來，請次長。"],["闕次長河鳴：謝謝委員幫我們說明。"],["林委員俊憲：好，我們就謝謝相關單位，謝謝3位，謝謝主席。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的質詢。","現在請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163336","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163336","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d50dae7f22f6362acc3614178be66146618360071112dbfb7f3739ca4563886b2115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:07:49 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我們先請NCC跟蘇花部好 陳代主委 還有我們邱政次委員好市長好 主委好其實剛才 我想我們好幾位同事都提到這件事情 就是網路任性的事大家都是就事論事 這個當然我們要盡快去改善"},{"start":33.868,"end":58.932,"text":"但是你若想到我們高雄桃園掉下去那一輛車子它從道路坍塌到掉下去高深谷然後整家人就一輛車子載個五個人全部都掉下去但是你看後面的錄影帶後面錄影帶它爸爸"},{"start":61.105,"end":87.272,"text":"還不知道怎麼爬到上面去還到道路上去求救求救之後他又下去救他的妻子 孩子然後這五個人兩個死 三個失蹤就都不見了你想到他從山谷跑到 爬到道路上去被"},{"start":88.499,"end":112.33,"text":"求救然後被錄影帶遭到你去想像那個情景我想每個人都有帶電話啦如果當時他可以電話有通如果當時他可以直接打電話到派出所求救如果派出所接到這個求救就可以盡快去救他也許這五個人命還在"},{"start":119.349,"end":125.494,"text":"你去想到這個問題你會覺得很難過那到底我們能夠做什麼昨天我也到災區去那跟其邁市長我們也到災區去那看看災民的狀況然後我們也送物資去幫助他們"},{"start":143.356,"end":172.628,"text":"你可以想像就是說他們在山裡面在颱風暴雨的時候他們是多麼的無助所以我想這個事情是刻不容緩而不是在等待那當然剛才大家也提到了幾個可以解決的方案不管是衛星的備援不管是網路的漫遊等等的有很多的方案那我也看到我們的"},{"start":174.683,"end":194.227,"text":"蘇發部也做過那個7月10號剛做一個颱風的一個演練7月4號做演練7月6號颱風來了車子掉下去了人跑上來求救但是卻只能無語問昌天你們想一想其實這個真的是你想到那一家五口"},{"start":203.314,"end":223.053,"text":"生命全部都不見了你就會覺得說它不是一件事情它不是我們現在在談的一件事情它是攸關的人命而且不只這五個人有多少人在山上需要緊急的搶救那麼的無助通訊不通"},{"start":227.341,"end":253.626,"text":"其實我真的是講了實在是很難過啦不過就是說我再強調一下剛剛我聽有不知道是次長還是主委講說這個漫遊我們還要溝通漫遊有商業機制那當然是他的正常時間的機制但是如果是這種救災時刻你說有哪一家電信公司會反對嗎還需要那麼久嗎"},{"start":255.885,"end":257.107,"text":"那個中華電信請"},{"start":272.74,"end":296.56,"text":"有的議題技術上是可行如果政策要做我們會配合但是我必須有一些提醒就是說我舉一個例本來三條高速公路三個交流道如果萬一有兩個交流道壞掉現在把要上兩個交流道的車通通調到另外一個好的交流道要避免一個問題就是也把"},{"start":297.301,"end":307.103,"text":"好多交通道會塞爆結果就變成三條高速公路全部不同的一個風險啦好 這個風險可能要特別考慮高速公路三條三條就是因為有很多的車輛在山區 在颱風在生命垂危之刻沒那麼多人會把這條高速公路塞爆啦"},{"start":325.697,"end":340.652,"text":"我們是在救急救難救那些少數的真的是痛苦的災民所以那個時候我跟你講不會塞爆盡快 盡速 馬上處理啦我不相信這個有這麼困難我相信中華電信一定願意的嘛 對不對"},{"start":341.843,"end":365.873,"text":"金董事長願意嗎技術上可行 我們會來研究怎麼來通比較不具有風險性的通我們會協助這個相關單位來進行商業機制那個都是小事啦商業機制不是考慮的重點那個主委跟社長有聽到商業機制不是考慮的重點"},{"start":368.294,"end":376.618,"text":"所以這個東西其實漫遊的災死的應變漫遊就應該首先就進入了其他的當然衛星啦 你的那個行動車啦這個當然有很多的救援的機制 但是漫遊最快而且坦白講這個要謝謝中華電信事實上我們也知道在越郊區中華電信其實是部件的比較好啦"},{"start":398.493,"end":425.526,"text":"當然其他的電信公司我們可以要求的可以拜託的可以多設的這我們再去努力但是就是說中華電信的確在山區 北緣地區是通訊最好的我昨天上山其實就有兩次我自己帶來兩次電話一支是中華電信 一支是另外一支電信公司那我平常就是兩支會交錯用我用那個我用了另外一家電信公司就真的是斷訊了"},{"start":429.246,"end":450.172,"text":"那還好我有帶兩隻我開另外一次中華電線的用WIFI碼接上那你想在山中的需要急難救助的或者是那輛車我相信那輛車他平常都是在山下啦所以他不見得每個人都用中華電線的如果他有"},{"start":452.853,"end":467.315,"text":"手機其他家電信公司如果中華電信當時漫遊可以接通我相信他可能不用從山谷一直爬爬到山上馬路上去求救他就直接打個電話我們現在在山谷可不可以儘快來救我們"},{"start":468.089,"end":482.676,"text":"是跟我們報告目前這個國際規範打緊急的求救電話是不會漫遊就直接的通如果當地只有某A公司的訊號通B公司C公司都不通即便他任務是B公司C公司他一樣打110 119都會通"},{"start":485.31,"end":504.404,"text":"所以他 我不知道他那個狀況啦 我們也不是怪說這個因為沒有通 而他們死亡當然有很多 災死有很多不同的狀況 我們很難去估計啦但是我們多一個生機 就會多一個救命啦"},{"start":507.458,"end":530.94,"text":"也許他也不知道啊或者是他打那個拍手的電話那個狀況都很多啦打拍手的電話他不會通嘛所以我們想盡各種可能也就是說其實我在這邊最簡單的要求中華電信辛苦一點就在時間就可以馬上接通漫遊"},{"start":532.403,"end":546.693,"text":"然後我們NCC跟我們的書畫部這個就是我們數位人性可以即刻可以做的還要再研究那麼久嗎我們看那個報導通常會甚至於7月31才延伸風災區域啟動漫遊服務的可行性"},{"start":548.039,"end":564.188,"text":"跟我們報告是這樣子的我們的作用法電信法實際其實是禁止商業漫遊的那電信管理法之後有留一個空間藉階災防法29條所以但是都沒有操練過那我們會進行趕快開會來看這機制怎麼處理剛剛簡董有提到說其實還有這個"},{"start":569.051,"end":583.756,"text":"技術上一定沒問題但是要有一點點時間包括緊急電話跟接通還有通訊監察這一塊都不是說一天兩天可以整理好你知道我們現在山上還在下雨嗎是你知道我們高雄市桃園區現在山上還在下雨嗎還要那麼久嗎拜託你啦好技術上的問題"},{"start":594.218,"end":601.942,"text":"法規上的問題 我相信你們都比我更嚴重關於愛是人民的需求的問題 救命的問題 要快甚至你們今天說 我不知道可以怎樣 你們今天說說看 搞不好這個開完 後面就可以直接漫遊了 我不知道可不可以有可能我打電話的人就聯絡得到了 現在還有人在山上"},{"start":620.319,"end":646.926,"text":"好不好是不是盡快現在馬上可以把漫遊接通就趕快接通可以嗎我們盡快努力但是如果當地如果說有A公司訊號打緊急電話應該都不會是問題那一般的那個聯通號這個漫遊的部分對他不只是緊急電話嘛他在上面心慌"},{"start":648.305,"end":677.435,"text":"他沒有外面的資訊他家人在山下想跟他聯絡說到底這一個親人還在不在你知道那種心情嗎你就接通就當他可以聯絡啊我再跟你講一個那個八八風災那個時候我聽了真的很難過八八風災的時候小林村你知道嗎小林村裡面有一對父子在通電話他爸爸在山上"},{"start":678.715,"end":702.576,"text":"他孩子在山下他們通電話當中跟他跳進去爸爸說一句嗨啊人就不見了小林村上面那個叫做縣渡山縣渡山從1600公尺瞬間崩塌到剩下600公尺1000公尺的土石整個下去把整個小林村都淹沒他爸爸這樣跟他講電話"},{"start":704.312,"end":733.109,"text":"那只是在家裡你再去看事後那整片全部都變成一個平地整個所有的土石流下去淹沒成平地所有的房子全部都看不到了你知道那種狀況嗎所以我拜託你們就是說人機吉利及人力吉利啦這個事情我認為不是那麼困難盡快完成好不好好 我會努力拜託你們好不好"},{"start":734.366,"end":745.143,"text":"那個都可以嗎 中華電信也OK吧我相信中華電信 因為他只是 他一定願意啦只是說我們盡快把這個程序問題 技術問題把它處理好"},{"start":746.658,"end":772.029,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們會來協助NC但是我要特別提醒這個風險要經過驗證啦因為如果我剛才講的情況發生連那個好的也會當掉結果全區都沒有那個區就沒有所以這一部分要特別再仔細考慮一下你其實你這樣講我實在是有意見你這個考量我接受啊但是現在我講的喇嘛俠"},{"start":773.715,"end":782.08,"text":"桃園 這兩區最嚴重 這兩區上面都沒有多少人很多已經下來了 我們底下有收容所山上還有人沒有下來的你說像台南七股跟嘉義布袋在這個陣營的時候 其實人沒有那麼多你趕緊陣營這兩區才能通你不說我們高雄 你先給南馬車到桃園區先給我們兩區"},{"start":804.854,"end":821.989,"text":"那那個台南旗鼓跟嘉義布袋這兩個你先這樣就好我不是叫你全部都不是全台灣都漫遊啦就是說這個地方最緊急的地方你們可不可以我不知道你們的技術可不可以開放這個局部就可以先讓他漫遊可以成功的"},{"start":822.889,"end":850.548,"text":"對 所以我也要報告 這個真的要經過驗證我舉個例子啦 同樣在那個區 它中華電信是40%的服務量我們的設計會到120% 差不多是可以吃50%多現在另外兩家 假設我們另外兩家當了就變100%的人 都會從那個交流道上來那個交流道就會用塞 因為所有人只有那個地方能上我送給你聽好不好 因為我們藍麻社跟桃園"},{"start":853.211,"end":865.373,"text":"40%用中華電線的?對還有60%有可能用其他的?是這60%我會說現在很多收容已經下來了可能下來了一半對所以我假設存超過50%的人所以你跟齊東漫遊沒問題,真的沒問題啦是是是那個金董"},{"start":881.127,"end":907.515,"text":"趙偉這個建議是刻不容緩的事技巧性的問題私底下去跟他報告能開就開 因為救命比什麼都還好當然當然當然另外方向也可以 有一些其他的方向啦你針對這個要趕快去跟他報告盡快處理啦 我認為不會塞爆你放心啦很多人已經下山了啦還有少數人留在上面啦"},{"start":908.235,"end":929.824,"text":"最怕就是汙破偏紅蓮葉雨,人又在裡面,又坐著獨居老人或是故意的所以說最怕那種比較特殊的狀況其實沒那麼多,我幫你補正沒問題啦只要你速度快,這些篩報我認為坦白講我用我的客觀的了解現實的狀況我認為沒有問題,不會篩報啦盡快啦好不好"},{"start":934.465,"end":949.797,"text":"好 那我們希望趕快明天就會開會好明天就會開會其實我是希望你們回合趕快就開會了然後趕快處理了不要再等到明天了 好不好好 拜託真的是拜託你們好 謝謝喜智傑"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":233,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（10時7分）謝謝主席，我們先請NCC跟數發部。"],["主席：請陳代主委還有闕政次。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：次長好、主委好。其實剛才我們好幾位同事都提到網路韌性的事，大家都是就事論事，當然我們要儘快去改善，但是想到我們高雄桃源掉下去的那一輛車子，因為道路坍塌掉下深谷，一輛車子載著整家人五個人，全部都掉下去，但是你看後面的錄影帶，那個爸爸不知道怎麼爬到路上去的，還到道路上去求救，求救之後，他又下去救他的妻子、孩子，然後這五個人二死、三失蹤，就都不見了。你想想看他從山谷爬到道路上求救，被攝影機照到，你去想像那個情景，我想每個人都有帶電話，如果當時他可以直接打電話到派出所求救，派出所接到求救電話就可以儘快去救他，也許這五個人還在，你去想想這個問題，你會覺得很難過。那到底我們能夠做什麼？昨天我也跟陳其邁市長到災區去看看災民的狀況，同時送物資去幫助他們，你可以想像他們在山裡面、在颱風暴雨的時候，他們是多麼的無助，所以我想這個事情是刻不容緩，而不是再等待。當然剛才大家也提到了幾個可以解決的方案，不管是衛星的備援、不管是網路的漫遊等等，有很多的方案，我也看到數發部在7月4號剛做過一個颱風的演練，結果7月6號颱風來了，車子掉下去了，人跑上來求救卻只能無語問蒼天，你們想一想，其實這真的是……你想到那一家五口全部都不見了，你就會覺得它不是一件事情，它不是我們現在在談的一件事情，它攸關人命，而且不只這五個人，有多少人在山上需要緊急搶救，卻那麼的無助，通訊不通。其實我講了實在是很難過，不過就是我再強調一下，剛剛我聽到不知道是次長還是主委說，漫遊還要溝通，漫遊有商業機制，當然是它正常時間的機制，但是如果是這種救災時刻，你說有哪一家電信公司會反對？還需要那麼久嗎？請中華電信說明。"],["簡董事長志誠：委員，漫遊的議題技術上是可行的，如果政策要做，我們會配合，但是我必須有一些提醒，我舉一個例子，本來三條高速公路、三個交流道，萬一有兩個交流道壞掉，現在把要上兩個交流道的車通通調到另外一個好的交流道，要避免一個問題，就是會把好的交流道塞爆，結果就變成三條高速公路全部不通的風險，這個風險可能要特別考慮。"],["許委員智傑：這個我告訴你怎麼解決，高速公路三條、三個交流道，是因為有很多的車輛，但是在山區、在颱風期間、在生命垂危之刻，沒那麼多人會把高速公路塞爆啦！我們是在救急、救難、救那些少數真的很痛苦的災民，那個時候我跟你講不會塞爆，請儘快馬上處理啦！我不相信這個有這麼困難，我相信中華電信一定願意的，對不對？簡董事長願意嗎？"],["簡董事長志誠：技術上可行，我們會來研究怎麼來通，比較不具有風險性的通。"],["許委員智傑：OK。"],["簡董事長志誠：我們會協助相關單位來進行。"],["許委員智傑：我想商業機制那個都是小事啦。"],["簡董事長志誠：對，商業機制不是考慮的重點。"],["許委員智傑：是的，主委跟次長都有聽到？商業機制不是考慮的重點，所以其實災時的應變，漫遊首先就應該進入了，其他的衛星、行動車，當然有很多的救援的機器，但是漫遊最快，而且坦白講這個要謝謝中華電信，事實上，我們也知道越是郊區，中華電信其實是布建得比較好的，當然其他電信公司，我們可以要求的、可以拜託的、可以多設的，我們再去努力，但是就是中華電信的確在山區、偏遠地區是通訊最好的，我昨天上山自己帶了2支電話，一支是中華電信，一支是另外一支電信公司，我平常2支會交錯用，我用另外一家電信公司，就真的斷訊了，還好我有帶2支，我開另外一支中華電線的用Wi-Fi把它接上。你想在山中需要急難救助的，或者是那一輛車，我相信那輛車，平常都是在山下，所以不見得每一個人都用中華電信，如果他有手機，其他家電信公司，如果中華電信當時漫遊可以接通，我相信他可能不用從山谷一直爬到山上馬路去求救，他就直接打個電話說：我們現在在山谷，可不可以儘快來救我們？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，跟委員報告，目前國際規範打緊急的求救電話是不用漫遊就直接通，如果當地只有某A公司的訊號通，B公司、C公司都不通，即便用戶是B公司、C公司，他打110、119一樣都會通。"],["許委員智傑：我不知道他那個狀況，我們也不是怪這個因為沒有通而他們死亡，當然災時有很多不同的狀況我們很難去估計，但是多一個生機就會多救一命。也許他也不知道，或者是他打派出所的電話，我不知道，那個狀況都很多，打派出所的電話又不會通嘛！所以我們想盡各種可能，其實我在這邊最簡單的要求，中華電信辛苦一點，在救災時間就可以馬上接通漫遊，然後NCC跟數發部，這個就是我們數位韌性即刻可以做的，還要再研究那麼久嗎？我看那個報導，通傳會甚至於7月31日才研商風災區域啟動漫遊服務的可行性。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，是這樣子的，我們的作用法，電信法其實是禁止商業漫遊的，那電信管理法有留一個空間，介接災防法第二十九條，但是都沒有操練過，我們近期會趕快開會來看這個機制怎麼處理。剛剛簡董提到，技術上一定沒問題，但是要有一點點時間，包括緊急電話的，剛剛接通的……還有通訊監察這一塊都不是一天、兩天可以做得到。"],["許委員智傑：你知道現在我們山上還在下雨嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["許委員智傑：你知道我們高雄市桃源區現在山上還在下雨嗎？還要那麼久嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那……"],["許委員智傑：拜託你們！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好。"],["許委員智傑：技術上的問題、法規上的問題，我相信你們都比我專業，我們要的是，人民需求的問題、救命的問題，要快！我不知道能不能這樣，甚至你們今天說一說以後，搞不好這個開完了後面就可以直接漫遊，我不知道可不可以？有可能山上的人就聯絡得到了。現在還有人在山上，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會努力。"],["許委員智傑：是不是儘快？現在馬上可以把漫遊接通就趕快接通，可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們儘快努力，但是當地，如果有A公司的訊號，打緊急電話應該都不會是問題，那一般的聯通，這個漫遊的部分，我們……"],["許委員智傑：它不只是緊急電話，他在上面心慌、他沒有外面的資訊，他家人在山下想跟他聯絡，想說到底這個親人還在不在，你知道那種心情嗎？你就接通，就讓他可以聯絡啊！","我再跟你講一個，八八風災那個時候，我聽了真的很難過，八八風災的時候，小林村，你知道嗎？小林村裡面有一對父子在通電話，他爸爸在山上，他孩子在山下，他們通電話當中，只有聽到爸爸說一句：糟了！人就不見了。小林村上面那個叫做獻肚山，獻肚山從1,600公尺瞬間崩塌到剩下600公尺，1,000公尺的土石整個下去把整個小林村都淹了。他爸爸在跟他講電話，他只是在家裡，你事後再去看，那整片全部都變成一個平地，整個土石流下去，淹沒成平地，所有的房子都看不到了，你知道那種狀況嗎？所以我拜託你們，人飢己飢，人溺己溺，這個事情我認為不是那麼困難，儘快完成，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們會努力。"],["許委員智傑：拜託你們，好不好？都可以嗎？中華電信也OK吧！好，對不對？我相信，中華電信他一定願意啦！只是我們儘快把這個程序問題、技術問題處理好。"],["簡董事長志誠：是，跟委員報告，我們會來協助分析，但是我要再特別提醒這個風險要經過驗證，因為如果我剛才講的情況發生，連那個好的也會當掉，結果全區都沒有、那個區就沒有，所以這一部分要特別再仔細考慮一下。"],["許委員智傑：其實你這樣講，我實在是有意見，你這個考量我接受，但是現在我說的那瑪夏、桃源這兩區最嚴重，這兩區上面沒住多少人，很多已經下來了，我們底下有收容所，但山上還有人沒有下來。你說像臺南七股跟嘉義布袋，就是緊急的時候其實人沒那麼多，你趕快讓緊急的這兩區先通，比如我們高雄，你先讓那瑪夏跟桃源兩區漫遊，臺南七股跟嘉義布袋這兩區你先這樣就好。我不是叫你全部、不是全臺灣都漫遊，就是最緊急的這個地方，我不知道你們的技術可不可以開放局部、先讓它漫遊可以成功？"],["簡董事長志誠：對，所以委員，我跟你報告，這個真的要經過驗證。我舉個例，一樣在那個區，在中華電信是40%的服務量，我們的設計會到120%，差不多是可以吃五十%多。現在另外兩家，假設另外兩家當了，就變100%的人都會從那個交流道上來，那個交流道就會壅塞，因為所有人只有那個地方能上網。"],["許委員智傑：我算給你聽，好嗎？以那瑪夏跟桃源，40%用中華電信的，對吧？"],["簡董事長志誠：對。"],["許委員智傑：還有60%可能用其他的。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["許委員智傑：這60%，我跟你說，現在很多收容的人已經下來了，可能下來的有一半。"],["簡董事長志誠：對。"],["許委員智傑：我假設，剩下差不多50%的人。"],["簡董事長志誠：所以跟委員報告，要算到……"],["許委員智傑：你給它啟動漫遊沒問題，真的沒問題啦！"],["簡董事長志誠：是、是、是，好。"],["主席：簡董，召委這個建議是刻不容緩的事。"],["許委員智傑：對，真的沒問題啦！"],["主席：技巧性的問題，私底下去跟他報告。"],["簡董事長志誠：了解。"],["主席：能開就開。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["主席：因為救命比什麼都還要好……法令……"],["簡董事長志誠：當然、當然，而另外的方式也可以……"],["主席：好不好……"],["簡董事長志誠：有一些其他的方式。"],["主席：針對這個你要趕快去跟他報告。"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：儘快處理。"],["主席：好不好？"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：我認為不會塞爆，你放心。"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：很多人已經下山了，還有少數人留在上面。"],["簡董事長志誠：是。"],["許委員智傑：最怕的就是屋破偏逢連夜雨，人還在裡面，有一個獨居老人還是幾個或怎麼樣，最怕那種比較特殊的狀況。其實沒那麼多，我跟你保證沒問題，只要你速度快，這些塞爆，坦白講，就我客觀了解現實的狀況，我認為沒有問題，不會塞爆啦！"],["簡董事長志誠：好。"],["許委員智傑：儘快，好不好？那我們希望趕快，趕快看到成果。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們明天就會開會。"],["許委員智傑：明天就會開會喔？其實我是希望你們會後趕快就開會，然後趕快處理，不要再等到明天了，好不好？好，拜託，真的是拜託你們。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑召委。","現在請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163335","vid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麻煩我們請NCC我們陳大理主委好 陳主委"},{"start":17.646,"end":35.28,"text":"好 主委好 原則上在這個新聞媒體自由這一塊我們是非常 原則上我們是非常尊重言論自由的嘛 對不對所以說我們對於這個相當的媒體的一些製作 只要沒有太違背事實的情況下我們都原則上不會干預嘛 原則上是這樣子嘛"},{"start":36.001,"end":56.882,"text":"但是在做任何的評論之前應該都是基於客觀的事實然後才有評論那當然評論的部分就是尊重言論自由但是前端的客觀的事實如果在相關的報導在前端的客觀的事實有刻意扭曲或者是不實的一些消息的話那原則上我們的在通常會的立場會是怎麼樣"},{"start":59.054,"end":83.464,"text":"陳議員剛剛所提到的這部分是我們是尊重業者的編輯自由言論自由但是如果說有民眾陳情申訴的話我們會調出他們的節目帶來看然後確定是有這疑慮的話我們會請業者來陳述意見那如果涉及違反事實查證的部分也會請他業者提他們自己的輪委會來開會討論"},{"start":86.525,"end":99.497,"text":"然後這個數據業者層次意見跟他假設有輪廓會的開完會議的資料給NCC之後我們會再研議然後提我們的節目廣告諮詢委員會然後再會上我們的委員會來處理反正我們就有一個檢討的機制在對"},{"start":104.241,"end":109.605,"text":"我想這個不知道的這個主委在我們可能726之前那還是民調可以發布的時候其實在針對各個罷免案的時候大概只有一家電視台有針對個別的選區去做民調的發布原則上我記得只有一家不知道的主委有沒有看過"},{"start":123.736,"end":135.391,"text":"這部分我們沒有特別留意但是因為這部分是我們有告訴業者這邊的要相關的中選會相關的選舉報名法那是必須要遵守的"},{"start":136.018,"end":159.404,"text":"因為那一家電視台他在發布的一個民調的結果跟選後這個實際的開票的結果有非常大的一個落差那這個就可能牽扯到他在因為民調是一個客觀的一個數據嘛那所以我才剛剛才請教主委在如果說電視台提供一個客觀的基本的事實如果事實有出入的情況下那我們相關的檢討的機制那當然不代表說"},{"start":161.545,"end":170.693,"text":"他選前兩個禮拜前做的民調跟選舉結果有落差那一定是假的有三種可能嘛第一種可能就是可能民調在設計上面他可能本來就有一點問題導致了民意的普查出現了落差"},{"start":176.658,"end":181.982,"text":"那第二個就是民調做完了之後到選舉這段時間國內的政治的情勢發生很大的變化導致那個時候的民調的參考跟現在那個選舉的結果沒有辦法吻合那第三種情況那當然就是他們蓄意在民調上面去做一些操弄然後可能來"},{"start":195.653,"end":212.496,"text":"散佈一些不是那麼準確的一個民調然後可能企圖有一些政治的一個目的來影響選舉的一個結果那我本人擔心的就是第三項那一些媒體自由他假借了這個言論自由的一個方式但是他如果說引述的是一些"},{"start":213.513,"end":226.942,"text":"不是事實的一些數據 企圖來做一些政治上面的影響我覺得這已經違反到了新聞自由的一個範疇了 他已經有藉由這個新聞媒體自由的這個權力來影響我們國內的政治的一個情況了那針對這樣的情況我不曉得主委有辦法去調查這樣的情況說他們當初所做的民調到底是他們捏造出來的還是說他們有實際上去委託民調公司去做出來的一個結果我們有辦法去做這樣的一個"},{"start":244.054,"end":261.428,"text":"就是去確認他所報導的一個基本的客觀事實到底有沒有那個事實存在好 謝謝委員剛剛跟委員報告的那因為我們是尊重性的自由所人絕對不會有事前審查然後是事後事後如果一般民眾有檢舉有申訴的話我們會請會啟動這個程序這個機制的請業者來就都陳情意見請業者來意見陳述"},{"start":269.634,"end":276.236,"text":"那如果是涉及到違反事實查證的部分如果是新聞台會請他們提他們的新聞的委員會來開會來討論結果之後或許才會進到我們的第三個步驟進入NCC的節目廣告諮詢委員會議再來是最後一個步驟NCC的委員會議來處理"},{"start":288.837,"end":308.859,"text":"好 那後續我再提供一些資料我就不針對他們評論的部分去做任何的一個檢舉就是剛剛陳儒剛剛講的這屬於可能言論自由的範疇我非常的尊重但是他們引述的資料這部分我就有高度的一個懷疑他到底是不是他們捏造或者是真的有去做相關的民調我在會後再請主委你們再做後續的一些會後調查"},{"start":309.56,"end":337.625,"text":"那另外一個就是開票啦這個台灣看開票這個每一家電視台落差都很大啦那甚至有一些電視台開票的結果開一開還會倒退嚕我想說其實我們能夠理解啦就是電視台有每個電視台他想要獲取的一個受眾他也有競爭的一個壓力他必須要可能要有一些符合他觀眾期待一些開票的結果但是倒退嚕這個東西實在是太扯了啦那個得票出來會倒退嚕那這部分"},{"start":338.366,"end":339.802,"text":"主委應該也略有所聞吧"},{"start":341.188,"end":370.147,"text":"是的跟委員報告每次開票每次選舉我們大概會前就選舉前都會跟電視業者來跟傳播業者來行政指導說你們的開票結果要符合三個條件第一個要有事實依據第二個要有所本你的報票你的體系來源是自己報的還是怎麼樣的第三個是可供查證那我們事後發現一些異樣的時候有一些電視台每次都"},{"start":370.727,"end":387.739,"text":"都會有這個報的比其他人快然後到最後倒退入的這種情況我們有沒有曾經有沒有曾經去含詢過或詢問過他的一些報票的一些可能流程是怎麼樣或者是去問一些工作人員到底有沒有長官的收益啊還是怎麼樣的情況怎麼會發現這樣子一個每次的常態性的慣犯的落差"},{"start":391.403,"end":403.329,"text":"是跟委員報告有過往也確實發生過我們也根據剛剛跟委員報告三個原則有所本可供查證我們請業者來說明為什麼您的票數您統計的票數跟後來為什麼會有這種"},{"start":407.111,"end":422.997,"text":"特別的情況那他們都會有一個告訴我們他情況是可能是他們自己報票體系的一些作業上的一些的結果造成的那最終他們大概都會說他們最終會從他們自己的報票系統"},{"start":424.324,"end":440.39,"text":"所以起到他們那個中選會的報票系統我們也不好幾次的不次的提醒他們這一部分一定要注意那我們除了提醒之外我們有沒有任何的一個主管機關可以做的作為希望我們電視台提供正確的資訊給我們所有的一個這個收聽收看電視節目的觀眾"},{"start":442.442,"end":469.177,"text":"這一部分開票這一塊其實我們跟中選會有密切合作我們也曾經把相關的案件也移給中選會來做處理那他們中選會依據他們的這個好像是一把零幾條意圖意圖叭叭叭這個造成這個選舉結果獲得那個投票結果有請他們來處理那先前中選會有告訴我們說如果電視台的開票作業開票數不符合40名這一塊目前"},{"start":469.577,"end":495.295,"text":"那中選會的一些相關的法律 目前是目前還沒有相關的法治我們NCC這部分就是我們NCC一定是希望所有的電視媒體提供正確的一個資訊給民眾嘛那開票是一個很明確的一個不會有不一樣的情況嘛那倒退路很明確的就是有一些異樣在裡面嘛我們將來怎麼樣有一些實質的作為讓這些異樣盡量的減少出現或者是在特定的一個頻道業者"},{"start":496.976,"end":509.907,"text":"可能常出現這樣的情況我們不要說他去提供假訊息至少他不是假訊息的情況下他在內部作業很明確的可能就會有一些錯誤的地方才會有這樣的情況那是不是請這些電子產業的怎麼樣來檢討他們內部的作業舒適怎麼每次都會有這樣的情況"},{"start":515.498,"end":542.962,"text":"是 那只要有民眾申訴或陳情我們都會找他們來 叫他們來表達意見那我們也會同案性的在每次選舉前也會找他們來開會來跟他行政指導說哪些過往發生過的一樣的情況不要發生我希望還是有一課則 這個電視節目才會因為我們不適合略到他們的言論自由我們只是要求希望他提供正確的客觀資訊我想這是每個電視台最基本的一個責任那如果說他們沒有辦法做到的話"},{"start":543.502,"end":547.255,"text":"我也希望主管機關要有你們的擔當以行政相關的一些懲處要給這些業者"},{"start":548.843,"end":574.751,"text":"是 我們會依法來依規定來 法規來辦理好 另外回到今天的這個主題我簡單請教一下就好了我們目前因為就是災害來我們就是在其實也是在它是一個災害但是同時也可以來檢視一下我們過去這段時間來做一些這個網路任性的一些檢討對不對那我們目前依靠低軌衛星或是說衛星通訊所能夠做的最大量的這個頻寬"},{"start":578.172,"end":597.867,"text":"大概是多大這部分大概說一部分更清楚那地軌衛星的頻寬一定比中軌高軌或者同步衛星要好那但是因為目前在台灣的這個相關在災情期間如果統一統假設統一在某個地方來使用的話那它的那會使用的一些分散的效果會造成使用頻寬會稍微縮一點一點"},{"start":599.428,"end":612.423,"text":"所以現在很明確就是實際的數字我們不知道但是目前就災區的範圍來看其實我們國內的一個衛星通訊的一個能量甚至連現在災區的所需要的一個頻寬可能都還負荷不了"},{"start":617.559,"end":640.015,"text":"第一軌衛星它的規格是目前我們配備的規格是Download是100然後Upload是40那這一次在災區28台通通都出動的情況下我們量測出來的數據是Download是60然後Upload大概是20"},{"start":640.936,"end":642.838,"text":"所以實際上去分享給每一個民眾的話原則上你們會限流嘛對不對"},{"start":647.731,"end":674.727,"text":"沒有,因為衛星它是把一個大區域當成一個我知道每一個使用者你們就誰先用誰先占了就占了這樣子就是目前看起來我們現在使用量是在現在這個數目是OK的可是如果當你的車子或者是衛星接收器增加到數千個的時候有可能沒辦法分攤到這麼大量因為我們跟衛星"},{"start":675.167,"end":690.145,"text":"我只想提醒就是我們國家過去投資了這麼多資源在網路任性上面結果現在目前就是到了一個檢驗的一個階段的時候那我相信相對於台北或者是人口密集區這次災區它可能受影響的用戶數相對起來是較少的在全國這個全體的比例來看是較少的"},{"start":693.689,"end":704.935,"text":"但是我們現在投入那麼大的量能下來之後卻連這樣子的一個傳輸能力都沒有辦法可能符合大家的需求那就希望大家再繼續努力啦好不好 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（9時43分）謝謝主席，麻煩請NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：主委好。原則上在新聞媒體自由這一塊，我們是非常尊重言論自由的嘛，對不對？所以我們對於相關媒體的一些製作，只要沒有太違背事實的情況下，我們原則上都不會干預，原則上是這樣子嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["廖委員先翔：但是在做任何的評論之前，應該都是基於客觀的事實，然後才有評論，當然評論的部分就尊重言論自由，但是前端客觀事實的部分，如果在相關的報導上，前端的客觀事實有刻意扭曲，或者是出現一些不實消息的話，原則上，站在通傳會的立場會是怎麼樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：誠如委員剛剛所提到的，這一部分我們是尊重業者的編輯自由、言論自由，但是如果有民眾陳情、申訴的話，我們會調出他們的節目帶來看，確定有疑慮的話，我們會請業者來陳述意見。如果涉及違反事實查證的部分，也會請業者提到他們自己的倫委會來開會討論，然後這個數據，業者陳述意見之後，假設有倫委會開完會議的資料給NCC，我們會再研議，提到我們的節目廣告諮詢委員會議，在委員會議上處理。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，反正你們有一個檢討的機制在嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["廖委員先翔：在726之前民調還是可以發布的時候，針對各個罷免案，大概只有1家電視臺有就個別的選區做民調的發布，原則上我記得只有1家，不知道主委有沒有看過？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分我沒有特別留意，但是我們有告訴業者，中選會相關的選舉罷免法是必須要遵守的。"],["廖委員先翔：因為那家電視臺所發布的民調結果跟選後實際的開票結果有非常大的落差，這個就可能牽扯到它在……因為民調就是一個客觀的數據，所以我剛剛才請教主委，如果電視臺提供「客觀的基本事實」與事實有出入的情況下，相關的檢討機制是什麼？當然，這不代表選前兩個禮拜做的民調跟選舉結果有落差，那一定是假的，有3種可能：第一種可能是民調在設計上面本來就有一點問題，導致民意的普查出現了落差；第二個就是從民調做完到選舉結束這段時間，國內的政治情勢發生很大的變化，導致那個時候的參考民調跟選舉結果沒有辦法吻合；第三種情況當然就是他們蓄意在民調上面做操弄，散布不是那麼準確的民調，有一些政治的目的，企圖影響選舉的結果。我本人擔心的就是第三種，就是媒體假借言論自由的方式，但引述不是事實的數據，企圖做政治上面的影響，我覺得這已經超出新聞自由的範疇，是藉由媒體自由的權利來影響國內的政治情況。針對這樣的情況，主委有辦法去調查他們當初所做的民調到底是捏造出來的，還是實際上委託民調公司做出來的結果？你們有沒有辦法確認他們所報導的基本客觀事實到底有沒有那個事實存在？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。誠如剛剛跟委員報告的，因為我們尊重新聞自由，所以絕對不會有事前審查，事後如果有一般民眾檢舉、申訴的話，我們會啟動這個程序、機制，請業者就陳情意見進行意見陳述，其中涉及違反事實查證的部分，如果是新聞臺或其他媒體，就由他們的新聞倫委會開會討論，有結果之後，後續才會進到我們的第三個步驟，也就是進入NCC節目廣告諮詢委員會議，再來是最後一個步驟，就是由NCC委員會議來處理。"],["廖委員先翔：好，後續我再提供一些資料，我就不針對他們評論的部分去做任何檢舉，誠如剛剛講的，這屬於言論自由的範疇，我非常地尊重，但是他們引述的資料部分，我就有高度的懷疑，到底是不是他們捏造的，或是真的有去做相關的民調？再請主委做後續的會後調查。","另外一個是開票，在臺灣看開票，每一家電視臺的落差都很大，甚至有一些電視臺開票的結果開一開還會「倒退嚕」。其實我們能夠理解每個電視臺都有想要獲取的受眾，也有競爭的壓力，可能要有一些符合觀眾期待的開票結果，但是「倒退嚕」這個東西實在是太扯了，得票數還會「倒退嚕」？這部分主委應該也略有所聞吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的。跟委員報告，每次開票、每次選舉，我們在選舉前都會跟傳播業者進行行政指導，要求他們的開票結果要符合3個條件：第一個，要有事實依據；第二個，要有所本，報票、體系來源是自己報的，還是怎麼樣的；第三個是可供查證。"],["廖委員先翔：你們事後發現一些異樣的時候，譬如有一些電視臺每次都會出現報得比其他人快、到最後「倒退嚕」的情況，你們有沒有曾經去函詢過或詢問過他們報票的可能流程是怎麼樣，或者去問工作人員到底有沒有長官的授意，還是怎麼樣的情況，怎麼會每次都發生這種常態性的慣性落差？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，有，過往確實發生過，我們也根據剛剛跟委員報告的3個原則，包括是否有所本、可供查證等等，請業者來說明為什麼他們統計的票數跟後來的結果之間會有特別的情況，他們都會告訴我們可能是他們自己報票體系作業上的結果造成的，最終他們大概都會從自己的報票系統switch到中選會的報票系統。我們也好幾次、不次地提醒他們這部分一定要注意。"],["廖委員先翔：你們除了提醒之外，有沒有任何主管機關可以做的作為，希望電視臺提供正確的資訊給所有收看電視節目的觀眾？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：開票這一塊其實我們跟中選會有密集合作，我們也曾經把相關的案件移給中選會處理，中選會依據選罷法好像是第一百零幾條意圖……造成選舉結果或投票結果等等，這部分有請他們來處理。先前中選會也告訴我們，有關電視臺開票作業的開票數不符合事實這一塊，目前中選會相關的法令還沒有相關的罰則。"],["廖委員先翔：那NCC這部分呢？NCC一定希望所有的電視媒體提供正確的資訊給民眾，開票是很明確的，不會有不一樣的情況，而「倒退嚕」很明確地就是有一些異樣在裡面，我們將來怎麼樣有實質的作為，讓這些異樣儘量減少出現，或是特定的頻道業者可能常出現這樣的情況，我們不要說它提供假訊息，至少它不是假訊息的情況下，其內部作業很明確地就是有一些錯誤的地方，才會有這樣的情況，是不是請這些電視臺業者怎麼樣檢討他們內部的作業疏失，不然怎麼每次都會有這樣的情況？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，只要有民眾申訴或陳情，我們都會叫業者來表達意見，也會通案性地在每次選舉前找他們來開會，跟他們行政指導，要求哪些過往發生過的情況不要再發生。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我希望還是要有一些課責，電視節目才會……因為你們不涉他們的言論自由，只是要求他們提供客觀正確的資訊而已，我想這是每個電視臺最基本的責任，如果他們沒有辦法做到的話，我也希望主管機關要有擔當，給予這些業者相關的行政懲處。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，我們會依規定、依法規來辦理。"],["廖委員先翔：好。另外，回到今天的主題，簡單請教一下就好了，它是一個災害，但是同時也可以檢視、檢討過去這段時間的網路韌性，對不對？我們目前依靠低軌衛星或衛星通訊所能夠做的最大量頻寬大概是多大？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這部分大概數位部會更清楚。低軌衛星的頻寬一定比中軌、高軌或者同步衛星要好，但是目前臺灣在災情期間，假設統一在某個地方來使用的話，使用的分散效果會造成使用頻寬稍微縮減一下。"],["廖委員先翔：所以現在很明確地就是實際的數字我們不知道……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：知道。"],["廖委員先翔：但是目前就災區的範圍來看，其實以國內衛星通訊的能量，甚至連現在災區所需要的頻寬可能都還負荷不了。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，我們低軌衛星目前配備的規格是，download是100，upload是40，那這次……"],["廖委員先翔：k嘛？"],["闕次長河鳴：Mega。"],["廖委員先翔：Mega，是單一基地臺，我以為是一線平臺。"],["闕次長河鳴：這次在災區28臺統統都出動的情況下，我們量測出來的數據為download是60，upload大概是20。"],["廖委員先翔：所以實際上去share給每個民眾的話……原則上你們會限流，對不對？"],["闕次長河鳴：沒有……"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，不限流？"],["闕次長河鳴：沒有，我們沒有限流，因為衛星是把一個大區域當成一個……"],["廖委員先翔：我知道，以每個使用者來講，誰先用，誰就先占？"],["闕次長河鳴：目前看起來，我們現在使用量在現在這個數目是OK的，可是如果當車子或者是衛星接收器增加到數千個的時候，有可能沒辦法分攤到這麼大的量，因為我們跟衛星這邊……"],["廖委員先翔：好，我只想提醒，我們國家過去投注了那麼多資源在網路韌性上面，結果現在到了檢驗階段的時候，我相信相對於臺北或人口密集區，這次災區可能受影響的用戶數是較少的，占全國、全體的比例來看是較少的，但是我們現在投入那麼大的量能下來之後，卻連這樣的傳輸能力都沒有辦法符合大家的需求，希望大家再繼續努力，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員的質詢。","現在請蔡其昌副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}},{"id":"163334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b46859f6d2502d504037577a403000c1614178be661466180eb9c7937deeb108e3ceebef6e54c8ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:29:48 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請一下蘇阿布 薛市長還有NCC陳大理主委"},{"start":16.987,"end":36.516,"text":"市長跟主委現在極端氣候四面尤其像這樣的一個牆台豪雨的這個衝擊對人民生活影響非常的大那在整個災情期間我想不管是電力的恢復飲食的提供以及電信的暢通是災民"},{"start":37.256,"end":50.127,"text":"最期望能夠迅速能夠政府能夠處理的但是我們看到當那次颱風啊在7月6號登陸之後有1322座的基地台受到損害有2800根的電纜受損那"},{"start":53.63,"end":77.08,"text":"我們看到基地台因為天線的偏移倒塌或者是相關附掛於電感的這些通訊設施因為電線感倒塌受到損害那整個災區的電路大概是在災後的第16天才全部的一個基本的恢復但是在災後的14到24天將近一個月的期間整個通訊的品質"},{"start":82.982,"end":90.909,"text":"還是因為常常頻繁的斷訊網路不穩或者是有線電視停播的這種狀況造成這種通訊孤島的狀況對人民的這個生活衝擊非常的大塑化部跟NCC責任非常的重大"},{"start":102.401,"end":120.402,"text":"我現在請教一下我們現在除了要讓這些基地台重新的建置恢復搶修之外我們主要的處理這種臨時的大量的通訊的斷訊塑化部還有什麼處理的方案嗎 來說明一下"},{"start":123.712,"end":146.626,"text":"報告委員 在這一次的救災蘇發部這邊最主要是調度28台有低軌衛星的行動基地車在災害應變中心總共有106台行動基地台車是由NCC跟蘇發部統籌來調度這裡面因為我們判斷災害的原因有"},{"start":147.426,"end":174.54,"text":"有一半是電一半是網路那所以這時候這30台有低軌衛星還有10台有這個同步衛星的車子變得非常重要市長我們對於這樣一個電訊的恢復主要還是在臨時的處置還是有三大方向的第一個當然是臨時行動臨時基地台的建置但臨時基地台的建置它的覆蓋率還是會有個問題"},{"start":175.68,"end":197.869,"text":"那接下來就是行動集體台車還有衛星通訊車但是我們的行動集體台車跟衛星通訊車數量是明顯的不足啦這是一個很重要的問題在整個災情的期間那如果災民無法在通訊方面保持基本的暢通的話"},{"start":198.669,"end":226.491,"text":"他們對於國家重要的即時資訊氣象資訊還有相關的重要的訊息等等生活的訊息等等都完全無法掌握這對人民的生活憧憬非常的大那我們來看我們的行動基地台車它是可以暫時的恢復相關通訊的重要的功能那行動基地台車中華電信有50輛"},{"start":228.046,"end":246.343,"text":"台客大有32輛那遠傳有24輛那行動機綠台車當然比較適合在電線桿斷裂但是光線仍然通行的這樣的一個狀況下來做使用那衛星通訊車中華電信台客大遠傳各有10輛那"},{"start":248.208,"end":269.444,"text":"更能夠支援整片的這種骨幹網路在癱瘓的一個時刻他們都是有重要的一個功能但是啊數量不夠而且要買這樣的一個行動經濟台車或尤其是衛星通訊車它費用比較高費用比較高來市長你了解的狀況說明一下"},{"start":271.704,"end":295.63,"text":"跟委員報告就是說衛星通信車的部分呢那以我們現在看到的每一個建置費用大概要1150萬到1500萬因為它包含它的車體啦電力設備改裝工程單單這個部分大概就要600萬那你還有5G的基地台設備啦資安設備運輸設備也要大概400到800那低軌衛星的中端設備也大概要150"},{"start":300.931,"end":322.211,"text":"整體的這種建置的費用就大概1,150萬到1,550萬左右那這種相關的我們政府要去督促業者來負起社會責任添夠必要的這些衛星通信車那政府除了這樣的一個督促的"},{"start":323.924,"end":335.652,"text":"這樣的一個責任之外也不能只是消極的等待業者去擔負這樣的社會責任我們政府能不能有積極的一個做法或者是我們會不會去討論我們針對相關的衛星通信車"},{"start":339.534,"end":365.197,"text":"在硬體來給予跟業者合作或者是在軟體的部分來跟他們給予合作不管是車體通信設備這些資安設備等等來說明一下市長我們有什麼規劃嗎跟委員報告第一個就是說我們在第五期的前瞻計畫已經有規劃就是在今年的下半年三家業者各會增加三台那總共九台全新的車子"},{"start":366.218,"end":385.009,"text":"那再來呢剛剛委員的投影片裡面有提到有一些行動基地台車是沒有衛星的大概有106台這裡面有一定的比例是沒有衛星的那我們也會在前瞻計畫補助他先把衛星的支架裝起來那如果我們在救災的時候有"},{"start":385.649,"end":402.127,"text":"有其他的衛星接收器可以調度就可以很快的裝到這些車子上面去這些相關的時程都必須如期如止而且希望能夠盡快的提早完成那相關的我們在這一次的這些通訊設備的恢復過程裡面"},{"start":404.79,"end":425.155,"text":"其實在丹納斯風災期間我們是可以看到中華電信的恢復比較快那遠傳跟台客大是比較慢這也不是說遠傳跟台客大他們相關的這種恢復能力他們的意願不高也不是因為中華電信啊他"},{"start":425.875,"end":454.557,"text":"相關的在一些重要的工友監務它的電力的供應部分因為跟台電的這些配合啊他們也是比較早成立的這種中華電信是比較早的一個電信公司而且是以前具有這種官方的性質所以在電力的供應部分啊他們能夠比較快的一個恢復因為我們知道這種電力中斷啊你有沒有備援電力這個非常重要啊"},{"start":455.017,"end":469.578,"text":"因為多數的機率台雖然配有UPS發電機但是你只能續航幾個小時而已如果主電源沒有恢復發電機供油中斷通訊就立即中斷"},{"start":471.628,"end":495.119,"text":"剛才中華電信在報告的過程裡面他們希望能夠跟台電更加的合作能夠在相關的經濟台的合作能夠數量更多中華電信已經是最多了那遠傳跟台客大我們也必須要來協助不只是台電而且是相關的工友建物我們如何來協調這些開放因為也是在偏鄉相關的這些"},{"start":497.58,"end":513.392,"text":"地區更應該在救渣的這種過程裡面要扮演重要的一個協助的角色來說明一下這個NCC說明一下文說得非常專業這個在公有建物提供成熟來"},{"start":514.193,"end":533.258,"text":"供業者來設置這塊是大概從由院長時期開始持續推動我們上禮拜才進行頒獎這部分我們會加強力道持續來推進那另外也補充那三家電信業者因為體質上不一樣中華電信早期是綜合網路業者所以他有很多的那個中計局還有機房"},{"start":533.658,"end":553.326,"text":"所以它在這個本身的一些站台上的的制高點或者電力的供應上會比另外兩家好另外兩家很多都是民宅部分所以在電力還沒恢復前另外兩家的復原能力會比較稍微慢一點好 雖然在基地台設置的相關使用管理辦法第14條第15條都有規定公共場域應該優先來控告那管理區管"},{"start":559.229,"end":576.346,"text":"不得沒有正當的理由來拒絕但是其實相關的公交部分都是比較消極因為我們除了地方政府同意也要經過安全的一些檢驗還有警官的一些考量等等其實這種地方政府配合意願都不高"},{"start":577.186,"end":592.942,"text":"這個NCC應該針對這些不管是消防派出所 相關所比較偏向這些地區必須要盡力的來去做協調主動的 積極的來協調這是一個重要的方向那最後時間的關係"},{"start":595.305,"end":611.753,"text":"我來請教一下除了臨時的基地台除了行動基地台車除了衛星通訊車這三個臨時的處置的方式之外那漫遊可不可行"},{"start":613.566,"end":625.776,"text":"國際漫遊可不可行因為中華電信有這個設備跟能力啊當然費用是一個要考慮的問題費用會比較高那費用如何來做處理或是技術的問題有沒有問題來說明一下"},{"start":629.406,"end":639.919,"text":"我們這邊這個問題大概是在平時轉暫時 暫時的這個漫遊部分國內漫遊 國內漫遊基礎上一定都沒問題那社會部也做過了那個POC的試驗"},{"start":643.463,"end":655.349,"text":"對於這個非特殊時期的一些蔓延目前法制上是有這個空間那我上禮拜也跟內政部的部長有聯繫過了我們明天就會找內政部跟數位部來開會來協調延伸這塊機制"},{"start":659.071,"end":675.796,"text":"跟業者來協調政府各部門之間的協調跟業者協調必須在技術可行而且是合理的費用那相關的經費來源是不是我們也來考慮使用普及服務基金這個部分來相關的支援"},{"start":676.996,"end":696.545,"text":"這個在國內漫遊在這樣的一個不管是我們剛才講的臨時的集體台或是行動集體台車或是衛星通訊車之外國內漫遊的方式也是來處理一個臨時通訊緊急應用的一個重要的方向來那個次長你說明一下"},{"start":698.203,"end":699.845,"text":"根據救災還有緊急動員的法律這些漫遊的費用是必須比如說在動員時期電信管理法裡面有規定"},{"start":715.485,"end":739.371,"text":"這些費用衍生的費用必須由國家來負擔那能不能用普及基金來處理的這個我們會回去討論因為普及基金本身是業者的錢那我們也必須回去盤點這個法律就是說在普及基金裡面的條例裡面有沒有能不能處理漫遊那目前在平時的漫遊是用商業機制來處理那救災的時候能不能用"},{"start":741.331,"end":756.501,"text":"行政命令跟政府的錢來處理這個我們會回去研議要盡快的提出相關對應的政策那我在這邊再提醒兩位極端氣候的肆虐這種強台豪雨的侵襲"},{"start":758.323,"end":786.483,"text":"會越來越常見那對於國人生命財產的保障我講過不管是電力飲食還有通訊的一個基本的暢通都是我們政府最重要的基本責任那我們也希望你們盡快的針對相關的行動基地台車衛星通訊車以及臨時基地台的建置的能力以及相關的數量以及相關的漫遊的這個部分"},{"start":787.364,"end":793.248,"text":"政策的一個推動跟執行我們都希望再看到具體的這樣的一個目標跟成績出來好謝謝李坤哲委員的執行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":96,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時29分）謝謝召委。請數發部闕次長，還有NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：請闕次長、陳代理主委。"],["李委員昆澤：次長、主委，現在極端氣候肆虐，尤其強颱、豪雨的衝擊，對人民生活影響非常大。在災情期間，不管是電力的恢復、飲食的提供以及電信的暢通，是災民最希望政府能夠迅速處理的。我們看到丹娜絲颱風在7月6日登陸之後，有1,322座基地台及2,800根電纜受損；也看到基地台因為天線偏移而倒塌，甚至附掛於電線杆的通訊設施因電線桿倒塌受到損害！整個災區的電路，直到災後的第十六天才全部恢復；但從災後的第十四到第二十四天，這將近一個月期間裡，通訊上仍頻繁斷訊，且網路不穩，甚或有線電視停播，以致成為通訊孤島，對人民的生活衝擊非常大，因此數發部與NCC責任非常重大！我請教一下，現在除了重新建置、搶修、恢復基地台外，面對這種臨時的、大量的通訊斷訊，數發部有什麼處理的方案嗎？說明一下。"],["闕次長河鳴：報告委員，針對這次救災，數發部調度了28台低軌衛星行動基地車至災區，而災害應變中心總共有106台行動基地台車，由NCC、數發部統籌調度。我們判斷災害的原因一半是電、一半是網路，所以這30台低軌衛星及10台同步衛星的車子就變得非常重要……"],["李委員昆澤：針對電訊恢復的臨時處置主要有三大方向：第一個是臨時基地台的建設，但臨時基地台的覆蓋率還是有問題，所以接下來就是行動基地台車，還有衛星通訊車。但行動基地台車跟衛星通訊車數量明顯不足，這是一個很重要的問題。在災情期間，若災民在通訊上無法保持基本暢通的話，對於國家重要的即時資訊、氣象資訊、生活訊息及其他相關的重要訊息等等都完全無法掌握，這對人民的生活衝擊會非常大。行動基地台車可以暫時恢復重要通訊功能，目前中華電信有50輛行動基地台車，台哥大32輛，遠傳24輛。行動基地台車比較適合在電線桿斷裂，但是光纖仍然通行的狀況下使用。至於衛星通訊車，中華電信、台哥大、遠傳各有10輛，能在骨幹網路癱瘓時給予支援，皆具有重要功能，但數量不夠！不管是買行動基地台車或衛星通訊車，費用比較高，尤其是衛星通訊車。請次長就所了解的狀況說明一下。"],["闕次長河鳴：跟委員報告，就衛星通訊車來說，目前我們所看到的建置費用大概要1,150萬到1,500萬……"],["李委員昆澤：對，包含車體、電力設備、改裝工程在內，單單這些部分大概就要600萬，而且還要有5G基地台設備、資安設備、運輸設備，這些也要400萬到800萬，至於低軌衛星的終端設備大概要150萬，因此，整體建置費用大概就是1,150萬到1,500萬左右。我認為政府必須督促業者負起社會責任，添購必要的衛星通訊車。政府除了這樣的督促責任之外，也不能只是消極的等待業者去擔負這樣的社會責任，政府能不能有更積極的作法，或者我們會不會去討論針對相關的衛星通訊車，在硬體上給予跟業者合作，或者是在軟體的部分來跟他們合作？不管是車體、通訊設備、資安設備等等，請次長說明一下，我們有什麼規劃嗎？"],["闋次長河鳴：跟委員報告，第一個，我們在第五期的前瞻計畫已經有規劃，就是在今年的下半年，三家業者各會增加3台，總共9台全新的車子。再來，剛剛委員的投影片裡面有提到，有一些行動基地台車是沒有衛星的，大概有106台，這裡面有一定的比例是沒有衛星的，我們也會在前瞻計畫補助它先把衛星的支架裝起來，如果我們在救災的時候，有其他的衛星接收器可以調度，就可以很快地裝到這些車子上面去。"],["李委員昆澤：好，這些相關的時程都必須如期如質，而且希望能夠儘快的提早完成。相關的，我們在這一次這些通訊設備的恢復過程裡面，其實在丹娜絲風災期間，我們可以看到中華電信的恢復比較快，遠傳跟台哥大是比較慢，這也不是說遠傳跟台哥大他們相關的恢復能力或意願不高，也不是！因為中華電信在一些相關重要的公有建物，它的電力供應部分，由於跟台電的配合，他們也是比較早的，因為中華電信是比較早成立的電信公司，而且以前是具有官方的性質，所以在電力的供應部分，他們能夠比較快的恢復。因為我們知道一旦出現電力中斷，你有沒有備援電力其實是非常重要，因為多數的基地台雖然配有UPS、發電機，但是它只能續航幾個小時而已，如果主電源沒有恢復，發電機供油中斷，通訊就會立即中斷。剛才中華電信在報告的過程裡面提到，他們希望能夠跟台電更加的合作，在相關基地台的合作上希望數量能夠更多，中華電信已經是最多了，遠傳跟台哥大，我們也必須要來協助，不只是台電，而且是相關的公有建物，我們如何來協調這些開放，尤其是在偏鄉相關的這些地區，更應該在救災的過程裡面要扮演重要的協助角色。請NCC說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，委員說得非常專業，在公有建物提供場所供業者來設置這一塊，大概從游院長時期就開始持續推動，我們上禮拜才進行頒獎，這部分我們會加強力道，持續來推進。另外也補充報告，三家電信業者因為體質上不一樣，中華電信早期是綜合網路業者，所以它有很多的中繼局及機房，所以它在本身一些站台上的制高點，或者電力的供應上會比另外兩家好，另外兩家很多都是民宅的部分，所以在電力還沒有恢復前，另外兩家的復原能力會比較稍微慢一點。"],["李委員昆澤：雖然在基地台設置的相關使用管理辦法第十四條、第十五條都有規定，公共場域應該優先來共構，管理機關沒有正當的理由不得來拒絕，但是，其實相關的公家部門都比較消極，因為我們除了要地方政府同意，也要經過一些安全的檢驗，還有景觀的考量等等，其實這種事情地方政府配合意願都不高，NCC應該針對這一些，不管是消防、派出所、鄉公所，對於這些比較偏鄉的地區，必須要盡力的去做協調，甚至主動的去積極協調，這是一個重要的方向。","最後，因為時間的關係，我來請教一下，除了臨時的基地台、除了行動基地台車、除了衛星通訊車這三個臨時的處置方式之外，漫遊可不可行？國際漫遊可不可行？因為中華電信有這個設備跟能力啊！當然費用是一個要考慮的問題，費用會比較高，費用如何來做處理？或是技術的問題有沒有問題？來，說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員這個問題大概是在平時轉戰時，戰時的漫遊部分……"],["李委員昆澤：國內漫遊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：技術上一定都沒問題，數位部也做過POC的試驗，至於非特殊時期的一些漫遊，目前法制上是有這個空間，我上禮拜也跟內政部劉部長聯繫過了，我們明天就會找內政部跟數位部來開會，協調、研商這塊機制。"],["李委員昆澤：跟業者來協調，政府各部門之間的協調，跟業者的協調必須是技術可行而且合理的費用，相關的經費來源，是不是我們也能考慮使用普及服務基金的部分來做相關的支援？國內漫遊在這樣的一個，不管是我們剛才講的臨時的基地台，或者是行動基地臺台，或者是衛星通訊車之外，國內漫遊的方式也是用來處理臨時通訊、緊急應用一個重要的方向。次長，你說明一下。"],["闋次長河鳴：跟委員報告，根據救災還有緊急動員的法律，這些漫遊的費用是必須……比如說在動員時期，電信管理法裡面有規定，這些費用、衍生的費用必須由國家來負擔，那能不能用普及基金來處理，這個部分我們會回去討論，因為普及基金本身是業者的錢，我們也必須回去盤點法律，就是說在普及基金的條例裡面能不能處理漫遊？目前在平時的漫遊是用商業機制來處理，救災的時候能不能用行政命令跟政府的錢來處理？這個我們會回去研議。"],["李委員昆澤：要儘快的提出相關對應的政策，我在這邊再提醒兩位，極端氣候的肆虐，這一種強颱豪雨的侵襲會越來越常見，對於國人生命、財產的保障，我講過，不管是電力、飲食，還有通訊的基本暢通，都是我們政府最重要的基本責任，我們也希望你們儘快針對相關的行動基地台車、衛星通訊車，以及臨時基地台的建置能力，以及相關的數量、相關漫遊的部分，在政策的推動和執行上，我們都希望能夠看到具體的目標跟成績出來。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒問題，我們會努力。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員的質詢。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-19","speakers":["林國成","李昆澤","廖先翔","蔡其昌","許智傑","林俊憲","洪孟楷","陳素月","魯明哲","陳雪生","黃健豪","蔡易餘","邱若華","李坤城","謝龍介","翁曉玲","徐富癸","葉元之","張啓楷","陳冠廷","何欣純","游顥"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-08-04"],"gazette_id":"1147001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147001_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、中華電信股份有限公司董事長、行政\n院災害防救辦公室、經濟部及台灣電力股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「丹娜絲風災通訊中\n斷及復原過程與檢討及我國災後通訊搶救機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147001_00011"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}