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謝謝主席各位官員各位我們三黨的同仁我想今天主要台灣民眾黨召集這些這個議案第一個我要強調沒有政治性沒有任何有政治意味所以我希望今天針對這個主題我們大家非常冷靜的來探討我們大家都知道詐騙橫行越打越詐"},{"start":1777.659,"end":1797.751,"text":"立法院該給的預算也給了該幫忙修的華也修了可是看到台中一家五口這種詐騙、手害走上結路讓台灣人民看在眼裡痛在心裡"},{"start":1798.823,"end":1822.646,"text":"所以台灣世界都認為我們是詐騙之島都說實在的台灣民眾黨非常不服氣這個不但是贏效國際難道民進黨九年來的執政要用這種無動於衷的態度就不要負責任嗎"},{"start":1823.769,"end":1845.844,"text":"所以不用來國會報告來說明清楚嗎這是我們主要提案的一個宗旨台灣民眾黨提這些只要求行政院長到立法院來報告這些專案報告真的 我很納悶有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":1848.991,"end":1871.34,"text":"所以本黨認為行政院長不能迴避責任打詐要提升到國安的層次才是一個真正的政策行政院長要親自去督導把這個打詐的工作做得更落實我一再強調預算該給的給了"},{"start":1874.384,"end":1885.453,"text":"修連法令配合我們也修的可是為什麼會越打越炸這是一個台灣之痛所以我還是要呼籲行政院"},{"start":1886.67,"end":1915.521,"text":"尊重憲華體制尊重國會盡快到國會來做專案報告把問題找出來如何國會來支持行政院長大迫大力的把這個打詐的事情做得更落實這是台灣民眾黨提這個案最主要的目的所以以上跟各位來做報告跟說明"},{"start":1916.978,"end":1941.499,"text":"好謝謝林國成委員那不曉得在場其他的委員誰要先發言好我們現在請民主進步黨黨團陳佩玉陳委員好謝謝主席那也謝謝民眾黨團提案的說明關於打炸的難題這件事情或者是全台灣人共同被打炸這件事情感到生活的困擾我們完全認同林委員所說的這確實是全國人民的困擾"},{"start":1942.159,"end":1961.274,"text":"但是我要說在您剛剛說的修法後的到位或者是相關預算的到位確實可以看到行政院其實有非常積極在推進我想您剛剛所說的這些指控說好像都沒有推進喔都沒有作為這個部分我覺得還是要予以澄清但是我們尊重林委員在這邊的提案那所以針對這個打炸"},{"start":1963.135,"end":1977.903,"text":"要積極的有所作為行政院必須要用法規範的工具用預算用政策去讓人民有感這件事情我們完全認同我們也希望可以阻絕掉更多的打仗但是我有一個疑問還是想要提出來跟大家討論第一個目前為止"},{"start":1981.265,"end":2001.696,"text":"幾次的民眾黨團的提案都是希望行政院長到立法院來進行專案報告可是我們想問的是如果回到立法院的組織規範裡面來看其實我們有委員會可以做很多的事情我想跟大家報告現在我手上整理出的資料第十一屆光是我們這一屆開始就有七次"},{"start":2004.497,"end":2028.151,"text":"的專案報告在委員會裡頭都是跟打炸有關我要再一次強調專案報告都跟打炸有關目前就有了七次甚至還有了一次的考察是吳宗憲召委在司法法制所排的也就是說在每一個委員會裡面只要跟打炸議題有關的不管是財政"},{"start":2028.951,"end":2045.701,"text":"交通司法内政每一个委员会的委员或者是召委都可以表达关心然后邀请各个部会就各个部会该做的事情做的好的做不好的出席专案报告并被质询"},{"start":2047.122,"end":2067.723,"text":"然后让立法委员把自己所收集到的民意所感受到基层人民的困境反映给各个部会这件事情在我们这一届当中不管那个赵伟是在野党的委员是执政党的委员从来没有人松懈我想跟大家说113年3月25号财政委员会罗委员"},{"start":2068.624,"end":2085.26,"text":"再来13年6月财政委员会郭委员郭国文委员再来13年10月交通鲁明哲委员司法吴宗宪委员司法吴宗宪内政张宏禄司法吴宗宪司法吴宗宪也就是说所有有相关的这些专案报告"},{"start":2085.78,"end":2107.538,"text":"应该很充分可以让所有关心这个议题的委员表达关心反映民意确认行政院的进度这个是关于打诈的部分回应您今天的主题所以我要说在这件事情上行政院不是没有进度不是没有动作接下来看到底让院长第一时间"},{"start":2108.786,"end":2123.104,"text":"好像不用经过委员会就直接来做院会报告这件事情真的合理吗我们来看一到现在到目前为止我们是第11届第三会期在目前为止第11届光是我手上就有这么多"},{"start":2123.945,"end":2147.302,"text":"都是由在野黨要求院長必須直接到院會來進行專案報告如果我剛剛說的委員會有發聲功能不管是在委員會裡面的質詢或者是在各個委員的辦公室所開的協調會各個委員辦公室所舉行的公聽會座談會裡面其實都已經可以反映了我不知道為什麼還要跳過委員會要叫院長直接來做一個專案報告我還念給林委員聽"},{"start":2149.944,"end":2154.166,"text":"光是就這一屆的這個會期就好我要強調是第三會期國民黨團就有一次國民黨團民眾黨團各式各樣的主題都要直接叫院長到立法院院會裡面來做專案報告那我想問林委員你把委員會的功能放在哪裡難道你是想要架空委員會嗎或是你是想要否認否定"},{"start":2176.018,"end":2194.459,"text":"我剛剛所舉的這些例子委員會裡面所開的專案報告委員會裡面所安排的考察都沒有意義都沒有功能都沒有辦法發揮實質監督的功能跟效用了嗎如果是這樣你要否認委員會那是不是以後都到院會來解決難道這就是你們的企圖心嗎甚至我也要提出"},{"start":2195.26,"end":2197.903,"text":"幾次民眾黨團所主辦召開的協商裡面甚至認為黨團的協商如果沒有辦法有共識我們沒有辦法同意你們甚至還覺得可以直接叫院會表決不用經過院長協商這是另外一個荒謬的地方所以我要再次跟您回覆"},{"start":2211.917,"end":2220.962,"text":"不管是在主題上您所說的我認為我們的委員會在這一屆每一個在野黨的委員執政黨的委員都努力的發揮自己的功能安排相關專報安排相關考察讓相關部會我要講喔是相關部會不管是你認為的司法院法務部內政部內政部警政署移民署訴發部勞動部大家通通都被立法院叫來沒有人躲得掉"},{"start":2237.712,"end":2249.971,"text":"還有專報這件事情請院長到院會來做專報想要架空委員會這件事情甚至我要說會不會今天的黨團協商沒有共識等到禮拜五你們馬上又要送院會處理相關議程甚至不願經過院長協商"},{"start":2253.576,"end":2260.024,"text":"上一次上個禮拜五在院長協商室就是發生這樣的事情民眾黨團積極的主張你們認為黨團協商後就可以直接處理不用經過院長協商所以主席我要在這裡我要鄭重的提出抗議同時我也提出要求我們希望盤點"},{"start":2270.217,"end":2290.232,"text":"目前为止所有民众党团国民党团要求的院长专报在还没有进行处理之前是不是可以请韩国瑜院长一并讨论主持到底要院长到院会来做几次专题报告针对哪些主题不然如果按照你们这个排法所有委员会是不是就不用运作了"},{"start":2290.512,"end":2305.777,"text":"通通叫院長來做院會專題報告就好了所以我也要要求韓國瑜院長要公開的進行回應到底對於行政院院長到立法院來做專題報告這件事情在野黨團到底希望針對哪些主題合併起來討論或者是綜合成幾次我認為這樣對於議題的推進才有實質的幫助以上謝謝主席"},{"start":2316.926,"end":2337.048,"text":"好謝謝陳佩瑜委員陳佩瑜委員代表民主進步黨表達實質內容的意見我想大家都聽到了我也沒有其他的意見那不過跟協商有關相關議事規則的處理那也特別利用這個機會跟大家報告一下第一個"},{"start":2338.169,"end":2356.105,"text":"民主進步黨黨團希望要求韓國瑜院長協商那就請民主進步黨黨團對韓國瑜院長發出通知跟請求這個不是我可以越主帶跑的事情那第二個立法院的議事規則相關的議事規則跟議事成立非常的清楚"},{"start":2357.168,"end":2382.438,"text":"委員會協商結束了以後本來就可以依照議事規則來處理從蘇嘉全院長那個時候開始奠定到今天規矩都沒有改變提到上個禮拜五我簡單提上個禮拜五我們所表決的第一案有關於台灣民眾黨黨團要求通過一個組決議要求中央政府把苛扣地方政府的一般補助款發還的那個組決議也沒有經過韓國瑜的協商"},{"start":2386.64,"end":2413.423,"text":"沒有經過韓國瑜的協商但我們在負責召集黨團黨團協商經過了以後本來就可以按照議事規則來處理那這件事情我們已經跟院長以及秘書長這邊再三確認過了那相關的議事成立非常的多那我想就院長跟秘書長全線成績的部分再由院長跟秘書長他們自己來加以回覆就好了"},{"start":2414.344,"end":2437.326,"text":"第三個部分就是說委員會裡面所進行的報告跟院會所進行的報告這兩個層次完全不同的報告我相信這對立法院裡面議事的運作有基本認識的人應該都不會產生這樣子的混淆那我想我就議事的部分先說明到這個地方"},{"start":2438.171,"end":2444.092,"text":"那我們第一輪是接下來中衛國民黨黨團的代表我們請王委員發言好 謝謝主席還有我們各黨派代表以及今天出席的官員今天主要是針對對於新世代打炸策略行動綱理2.0的執行的成效希望由我們行政院長到立法院來做專案報告"},{"start":2467.438,"end":2484.516,"text":"我想就是有关于诈骗其实是台湾人民普通的痛尤其最近几个社会事件其实让很多人心里感触都很深虽然我们在预算的部分以今年来讲我们今年打仗预算74亿"},{"start":2486.218,"end":2511.577,"text":"然後我們在去年的時候呢打架新的司法也已經上路可是從實際的數字上來看剛才林國成委員也有在說明那現在這個不管是打架的件數還有打架的金額其實都是在飆升的狀態那我們自己身為區域立委幾乎呢三不五時就是一直有相關的陳情"},{"start":2513.118,"end":2529.09,"text":"而且呢 針對就是報案了以後也沒有用 石沉大海那最近還在台中發生了一家五口因為被詐騙 然後一家五口輕生這個其實很多人都看了非常非常不忍覺得台灣為什麼詐騙如此的猖獗"},{"start":2532.478,"end":2553.841,"text":"所以我覺得就是行政院長在此時此刻尤其今年上半年這樣我們整個的被詐騙金額又創下新高大家可能沒有辦法想像就是一個月大概被詐騙金額將近百億之多所以"},{"start":2555.163,"end":2573.379,"text":"讓院長來做立法院報告其實也可以讓院長來說明就是我們的預算怎麼執行那麼在打造新司法上路之後是不是還有些摯愛難行的地方我們在相關的修法的部分是不是應該在於補強我覺得這都是很理所當然而且是國人普遍關心的"},{"start":2579.784,"end":2605.93,"text":"但是我剛才有點遺憾就說民進黨團一方面他不否認現在打仗是就是詐騙是全台灣人民的痛而且民怨極深可是另外一方面又混淆了這個焦點就是說好像讓院長來立法院做專案報告就是架空委員會"},{"start":2607.638,"end":2626.37,"text":"我不懂這到底是什麼樣的邏輯死亡我們過去立法院邀請行政院做院長做專案報告這個完全不是這次才空前的啊所以如果行政院長來"},{"start":2628.596,"end":2648.612,"text":"來立法院來做專案報告就是架空委員會的話那如果我也可以用邏輯死亡的方式去回應民進黨團難道你們要弱化我們大會的功能嗎弱化院會的功能嗎所以我覺得今天我們能不能回歸舊事論事來談這件事情"},{"start":2650.914,"end":2654.857,"text":"我們打架重不重要我們詐騙嚴不嚴重除非民進黨談說沒有現在我們這個執行好棒棒我們詐騙的金額降低了我們詐騙的件數也都減少了執行起來都很好為什麼還要來做專案報告如果你們也承認也不能否認現在的詐騙就是猖獗啊那我請問一下為什麼要百般阻撓"},{"start":2679.572,"end":2690.564,"text":"卓榮泰院長來立法院做報告我不曉得啦就說一直在阻撓到底是卓榮泰院長到底是有多怕多不敢來立法院來做報告"},{"start":2692.369,"end":2707.8,"text":"因為在之前包含我們今天非常關心的我們今天的關稅稅率今天正式的上路那之前不是我們也針對台美的貿易關稅上路希望卓院長能夠來做報告民進黨團也要擋"},{"start":2713.025,"end":2735.547,"text":"這麼重要的事情也要擋 詐騙也要擋也不能來做報告然後連民進黨委員郭國文自己提案在最近南部縣市這麼嚴重的水災災後重建也希望行政院來做專案報告"},{"start":2736.748,"end":2751.58,"text":"結果呢又在莫名其妙的壓力之下非常神奇的自己又撤案了所以我不瞭解啦那個卓院長是到底有多麼要羞於見人不敢到立法院來做報告我不懂欸"},{"start":2754.673,"end":2778.362,"text":"我們水災的災後重建不重要嗎這個不應該來做報告嗎為什麼自己的委員而且是台南的區域委員還一再救災也很辛苦啦然後提案還不敢趕快測案好那我們今天貿易關稅這麼重要的事情也不敢來做報告然後我們今天講到詐騙"},{"start":2780.103,"end":2783.806,"text":"也不敢也不願意來做報告我真不懂啊我真不懂啊那我們我們這個難道我們院長"},{"start":2790.046,"end":2796.37,"text":"很羞於來跟立法委員來做說明嗎這麼羞於見人嗎所以我特別要講就是說確實我們現在在立法院裡面有好幾個案子確實都希望院長來做專案報告可是我剛才上述所講的請問哪一個不應該跟人民報告呢哪一項不應該跟人民報告呢"},{"start":2817.797,"end":2820.598,"text":"人民想要聽一下院長來做報告這麼困難嗎還要你們這個民進黨團用各種怪裡怪氣的理由嗎所以在這邊我表達國民黨團的立場第一個我們也認為詐騙極為嚴重已經嚴重到現在不是詐騙根本已經到磨柴害命了到磨柴害命其實我剛剛講的一家五口這樣的"},{"start":2844.662,"end":2860.33,"text":"那個自殺死亡後來也有好多好多也是因為被詐騙之後然後就身亡的真的讓大家非常痛心已經到謀財害命的程度那第二點基於人民所關心的事情立法委員本於職責本來就應該有權利"},{"start":2864.824,"end":2887.329,"text":"而且行政院也有這樣的義務到立法院來做專案報告所以我們在今天的協商國民黨團表達兩個立場第一個我們認為詐騙確實非常嚴重第二個我們也認為行政院長卓榮泰院長應該率相關的部會的首長到立法院來做專案報告以上謝謝"},{"start":2890.163,"end":2910.119,"text":"謝謝王航輝委員我們第一輪依照台灣民眾黨、民主進步黨、中國國民黨三個黨團的代表都已經完成了第一輪的發言我們在進行第二輪發言之前是不是先讓行政院表示一下他們的看法行政院表示看法,我們再繼續讓黨團進行第二輪的發言"},{"start":2912.461,"end":2933.253,"text":"好我們現在是不是先請行政院代表是要有哪一位發言副秘書長嗎因為今天的主題就是針對打詐的事情希望邀請卓榮泰院長率相關的部會首長來立法院報告行政院的立場是第一個願不願意來第二個在時間上面你們怎麼配合會比較好來有請副秘書長"},{"start":2936.533,"end":2947.587,"text":"跟各位報告那本次的協商議題是請本院院長率同相關部會的首長就新世代打擊詐欺的策略行動綱領2.0的執行成效那進行專案報告並備詢"},{"start":2952.313,"end":2966.799,"text":"那我們考量說以往在總質詢或者總預算的詢答或者委員會開會的時候那其實委員都會監督行政團隊打詐的相關事宜所以我們建議是可以原這種例用這種方式來辦理"},{"start":2969.91,"end":2980.604,"text":"謝謝不好意思,我跟行政院的副秘書長報告一下我相信不管是您本人,或是卓榮泰院長本人應該都很清楚因為會總諮詢預算的諮詢"},{"start":2984.91,"end":3002.142,"text":"除了從諮詢跟預算的諮詢之外邀請行政院長就一個特定的主題來立法院進行專案報告這個是本院行之有年一直都在進行的事情所以我只想要再度確認一下因為我不要"},{"start":3002.902,"end":3021.483,"text":"造成任何的誤會也就是行政院的立場是針對打炸的這樣一個專題行政院院長左鴻燙他認為沒有必要來進行專案報告有問題等到審預算的時候再來問就好了請問行政院的立場是這樣子嗎"},{"start":3024.917,"end":3034.554,"text":"各位報告我們的立場是說在以往各個場合裡面的時候呢針對這個議題的話呢都有相同的關切所以我們建議可以原這種方式來處理謝謝"},{"start":3036.806,"end":3059.025,"text":"OK 那我想大家聽得很清楚啦就是一言以蔽之行政院院長卓榮瀚他基本上是認為就打詐的這個議題他認為其他的機會再問他就好了邀請他到本院來進行專案報告並備諮詢那行政院採取的是一個否定的立場這個我想三個黨團的代表"},{"start":3060.386,"end":3088.302,"text":"我這樣子歸納行政院所講的話應該不會來造成一些誤會因為我們現在三個黨團也好行政院也好意見顯然不一致今天協商顯然不會有任何的共識我徵詢一下各個黨團你們希望進行第二輪的發言還是我們就把這個協商既然大家立場也都蠻清楚的沒有共識就把它結束掉"},{"start":3089.332,"end":3102.198,"text":"大家是希望繼續講話呢 還是要進行第二輪發言OK嘛 還沒有公示以前我這裡等一下等一下 林國成委員請你把麥克風切掉那個不好意思 我有在主持啦"},{"start":3104.331,"end":3125.169,"text":"因為我基本上還是尊重各個黨團的意見因為我相信這個主題大家要繼續在這邊繼續講下去再講兩個小時也絕對不成問題由於本日的協商沒有辦法取得共識我們後續就依照立法院職權行使法相關的規定送院會處理今天的協商到此結束 謝謝"},{"start":3135.279,"end":3141.49,"text":"這兩回事嘛最高權力機構是行政院長委員會規定委員會什麼都不懂"}]}},{"id":"163433","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163433","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b956ce8216afb379c970dc6911ab88c3aa976a05b665ea94a3dd6b1f49ba06ce335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:43:22 - 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謝謝主席 請那個劉書偉劉書偉"},{"start":15.489,"end":35.738,"text":"對 我先請教一個 今天中午正式就會生效 台美的部分先雖然我們現在是暫時性的 中午生效20%的部分先生效 其實其他國家也都是這樣因為我們現在談的叫做暫時性的關稅 表示接下來還會繼續談"},{"start":37.799,"end":45.184,"text":"什麼時候會有最後筆定的一個時間這個是談判代表跟這個院在談但是我有被徵詢一些議題所以我很確定他還在進行中希望還在談判當中當然我們希望後面還會再講"},{"start":57.611,"end":73.338,"text":"今天因為中午就開始生效了所以相關的因應措施跟準備其實也都一定要啟動了啦因為這個一旦生效馬上就直接會有相關的影響就會產生那我先確定一下因為早上最早的消息知道就是"},{"start":74.799,"end":93.977,"text":"半導體的部分當然關稅是百分之百但是他也有提到如果你有去投資的計畫或即將投資的話那就零啦就是零那台積電這樣看來是零嘛因為台積電已經在美國做投資對沒錯所以台積電目前看起來其實是會是零的部分嘛這對台灣來說當然是一個好的消息對因為他的比重比較大"},{"start":95.057,"end":112.007,"text":"那這個台積電因為我們看了有幾個廠都在進行 未來也在投資但是還有其他的部分因為台灣跟美國我們畢竟還是前十大的貿易國那從去年來看的話台美之間的貿易順差"},{"start":114.608,"end":138.227,"text":"還是前六大 第六大所以其實這個問題顯然我們必須跟美國也做一個好的處理我想川普也會要求跟台灣進行處理那我們看我們周邊的其實像南韓 像日本他們大概都已經初步談定了那裡面大概形式上一個是投資像南韓是投資美國3500億美金那像日本是投資5500億美金"},{"start":143.231,"end":157.782,"text":"那台灣是不是也會朝這個方向在進行如果就川普這兩天的訊息出來的話這個我不清楚但是就我來看我們的GDP的種子是低於南韓的那"},{"start":162.057,"end":189.252,"text":"這個如果用GDP比重來看投資的話理論上台灣的投資應該還是不可能比高過這些國家啦對如果照這樣來看以日本台灣南韓來看的話其實我們已經也盡了相當大的一個努力了在整個平衡整個貿易的逆差的部分做了相當大的一個努力那所以接下來如果台灣有更多的一些投資範圍其實看來很多不管是從包括"},{"start":190.467,"end":202.565,"text":"汽車甚至半導體慢慢抵定了之後包括汽車甚至於投資不管是天然氣或投資其他的部分的話那有機會經過這樣的方式的話讓台灣的關稅有機會再降低嗎主委怎麼看"},{"start":203.615,"end":225.577,"text":"我是認為很有機會的原因是第一個我們台灣代表處其實大家準備的非常充分那第二個事情是這些團隊也蠻優秀的所以我認為應該會有很好的結果那如果按照日美跟韓美之間的看法的話他們是會先降到一個中間暫時性關稅再往下"},{"start":227.239,"end":249.272,"text":"那我們看起來我們的路徑也在接近也正在一個中間路徑所以台灣的趨勢也是照這樣從32到20再20有可能再往下降也許降到類似15日韓越南都是這樣的路徑對那如果是15的話至少在日本跟南韓之間的話但大家的就站這個比較一樣的一個基礎點上面去競爭對台灣的衝擊相對上就會比較小"},{"start":252.914,"end":259.48,"text":"所以我們大概是朝這個目標在努力那諸位看起來是樂觀的朝樂觀的方向在看我們是這樣我們準備的時候風險角度不能樂觀我們就有版本但是談判結果我們是朝樂觀方向看"},{"start":268.248,"end":294.805,"text":"好 也一定要朝這個方向去做努力啦這也必然是那另外當然有些擔憂的是息產地的問題啦其實像包括像印尼、越南等等其實都有息產地這個台灣也必須要做萬全的一些準備啦因為一旦被認定為你是在息產地的話那這個大概就會被又被拉高起來這個部分我想政府應該都做了萬全的準備這個經濟部已經做了做了一些措施嘛然後進行比較大的管控"},{"start":296.667,"end":320.802,"text":"所以我了解經濟部是好我也希望國發會持續的關注這樣啦因為畢竟它影響到國家整體的未來的競爭力那國發會站在整個更更高的一個高度上面其實要去不斷去控管跟注意這樣的一個事項那其實台美這六年來其實增加了十倍啦其實確實增長的速度相當快那所以這個也大概也是我們要去面臨的問題啦一年將近接近700億"},{"start":323.865,"end":346.423,"text":"700億這樣的一個這個貿易的順差我們順差他們是逆差所以這個也是台灣一定要去面對的問題所以我想這個也希望後續的談判結果能夠跟一方面是對台灣的產業的衝擊降到最低那一方面也希望台美的關係更加的穩固我想這是同樣努力的一個目標"},{"start":347.698,"end":369.272,"text":"主委應該是朝這樣的看法吧是的我們向努力那另外是我想問一下那接下來其實我們談判即將抵定了那我們現在處理的大概是用930億的方式來做那剛剛其實主委提到這個原先最早的規劃就用930億那如果以現在這樣狀況下"},{"start":370.753,"end":392.472,"text":"會再增加嗎?就是對於整個產業的支持跟照顧跟協助部分會再做一些增加嗎?以現在來看,因為當時是以現在來看應該這個是會滾動式調整那現在來看在我們經濟能力上這個應該是可以先往前走應該是推動應該是夠了但是還要看後面的變動"},{"start":394.134,"end":408.887,"text":"現在暫定用930億來推啦但是後面隨時在做滾動式檢討但如果隨時有需要的時候我們隨時可以再來做追加的部分尤其我們有很大的金額是在支持他出貨的成本"},{"start":410.05,"end":434.964,"text":"那因為他需要被支持 那那個出貨量越大 我們的支持金額就會往上拉嘛這個隨著談判的結果出來之後 越來越清楚的出來之後那當然就會有更明確的一些那個 就是現在這個這樣子做 這樣子來列但是將來談判結果更明確的出來之後 我們當然就有更明確的一些做法那當然還不足 還不夠的部分"},{"start":435.604,"end":458.497,"text":"政府也持續我們會再來調整我想政府挺企業這件事情是沒有問題的這個是絕對沒有問題而且政府挺農漁民這件事情也是沒有問題這是絕對的所以我想這樣的態度至少讓國人放心就是說我們努力的談到最好的結果但是談完之後如果任何受到影響的產業那政府也絕對會挺相關的產業跟農漁民到底這裡面除了這個產業農業經濟的產業以外還有就是這個穩定就業的部分"},{"start":465.361,"end":481.469,"text":"對 這個都要持續來進行這也是政府的主要目的那我再問那裡面我看到報告裡面就是政府還是會維持在今年GDP成長3%這樣的一個目標嘛是不是對 現在是很有信心啦很有信心啦應該沒有太大問題因為上半年看起來狀況是相當的不錯啦"},{"start":482.99,"end":506.024,"text":"對 然後下半年主要有兩個支柱會產生一個是手機的拉貨槽第二個是那個AI那個這個GP300的新Model的儲貨這兩塊都會帶動那我們希望國發會跟各部會密切的注意那我們來看一下燈號的部分其實是到5月、6月其實已經進入到了綠燈所以在景氣上面 主委擔憂嗎 這樣的狀況"},{"start":507.705,"end":534.123,"text":"現在景氣狀況是進入我們稱為穩定期綠燈是穩定期那我們是審慎的去規劃後面所以我們才會有擴大內需希望來推動擴大內需來把下半年如果有什麼比較大的變化的話可以所以下半年的景氣狀況主委怎麼看待下半年景氣其實是一個值得關注就是我們還是很謹慎去觀察"},{"start":535.58,"end":556.401,"text":"那趨勢上呢就國發會的你們的評估跟判斷呢因為你們的評估判斷會影響到怎麼樣去投入這些相關的資源趨勢上應該會跟去年接近啦就是說會比上半年差但跟去年接近就是說等於是成長力道相較於去年大概會在1.1%或是1.多的一個狀況"},{"start":559.923,"end":580.894,"text":"好 我們希望整個密切注意這樣一個狀況好不好也請國防會持續的在這裡所以會相較下半年 去年下半年有微幅成長就沒有那麼大幅度的我們現在這個是已經是大概應該是全世界最好的上半年對 但是下半年部分還是要請持續的關注這樣一個狀況好 謝謝主委 辛苦了好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時43分）好，謝謝主席。請劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我先請教一個問題，今天中午就會正式生效嘛！臺美的部分，雖然我們現在是暫時性的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，暫時關稅會生效。"],["賴委員瑞隆：中午生效嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，中午生效。"],["賴委員瑞隆：20%的部分先生效了嘛！包括其他國家也都是這樣。因為我們現在談的叫做暫時性關稅，表示接下來還會繼續談，什麼時候會有最後底定的時間？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是談判代表跟院在談啦！但是我們有被徵詢一些議題，所以我很確定他們還在進行中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就還在談判當中啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然我們希望後面還會再降啦！但是因為今天中午就開始生效了，所以相關的因應措施跟準備，其實也都一定要啟動了啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為這一旦生效，馬上就直接有相關的影響會產生。我先確定一下，因為早上最早的消息是半導體的部分，當然關稅是100%，但是他也有提到，如果你有去投資的計畫或即將投資的話，那就是「零」啦！台積電這樣看來是零，因為台積電已經在美國做投資嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以台積電目前看起來其實會是零的部分嘛！這對於臺灣來說，當然是一個好的消息。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為它的比重比較大。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為我們看了台積電有幾個廠都在進行，包括未來在投資的，但是還有其他的部分，因為臺灣跟美國，我們畢竟還是前十大的貿易國，從去年來看的話，臺美之間的貿易順差，還是第六大啦！所以其實這個問題，顯然我們也必須跟美國做一個好的處理，我想川普也會要求跟臺灣這邊做處理。我們看我們周邊的國家，像南韓、日本，他們大概都已經初步談定了啦！裡面大概形式上，一個是投資，像南韓是投資美國3,500億美金，像日本是投資5,500億美金，臺灣是不是也會朝這個方向在進行？如果就川普這兩天釋放出來的訊息的話。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我不清楚，但是就我來看，我們的GDP總值是低於南韓的。如果用GDP比重來看投資的話，理論上臺灣的投資應該還是不可能高過這些國家啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，如果以日本、臺灣、南韓來看的話，其實我們也已經盡了相當大的努力了，在平衡整個貿易逆差的部分做了相當的努力。所以接下來如果臺灣有更多的投資方案，其實看來很多，從汽車、半導體慢慢底定了之後，甚至投資，不管是天然氣或其他的部分，經過這樣的方式，有機會讓臺灣的關稅再降低嗎？主委怎麼看？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認為很有機會的原因是：第一個，我們談判代表處，其實大家準備得非常充分啦！第二個，這些團隊也滿優秀的，所以我認為應該會有很好的結果。如果按照日美跟韓美之間的看法的話，他們是會先降到一個中間的暫時性關稅再往下，看起來我們的路徑也正在一個中間的暫時性關稅。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以臺灣的趨勢也是照這樣，從32%到20%，20%有可能再往下降，也許降到類似15%這樣，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：日、韓、越南都是這樣的路徑。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，如果是15%的話，至少在日本跟南韓之間的話，大家就站在比較一樣的基礎點上競爭啦！這樣對臺灣的衝擊相對上就會比較小一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們大概還是朝這個目標在努力，主委看起來是樂觀啦！朝樂觀的方向在看。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們是這樣啦！我們準備的時候，以風險的角度不能樂觀啦！我們就要有版本。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對於談判的結果，我們是朝樂觀方向看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，也一定要朝這個方向去做努力啦！這是必然的。另外，當然有些擔憂的是洗產地的問題，其實包括像印尼、越南等等，都有洗產地的問題，這個臺灣也必須要做一些萬全的準備啦！因為一旦被認定為是在洗產地的話，關稅大概就會又被拉高起來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：針對這個部分，我想政府應該都做了萬全的準備。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個經濟部已經做了一些措施嘛！有進行比較大的管控，所以就我了解經濟部是這樣做的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我也希望國發會持續的關注，因為畢竟它影響到未來國家整體的競爭力，國發會站在更高的高度上面，其實要不斷去控管跟注意這樣的一個事項啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：臺美貿易順差這6年來增加了10倍啦！確實增長的速度相當快，所以這大概也是我們要去面臨的問題，一年將近700億的貿易順差，我們是順差，他們是逆差，所以這也是臺灣一定要去面對的問題啦！我希望後續的談判結果能夠跟……一方面是對臺灣的產業衝擊降到最低，另一方面也希望臺美的關係更加的穩固啦！我想這是同樣要努力的目標。主委應該也是朝這樣的看法吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們希望一起努力啦！另外，我想請教一下，接下來我們談判即將底定了，我們現在大概是用930億的方式來做，剛剛其實主委也提到這個原先最早的規劃就是用930億，如果以現在這樣的狀況，會再增加嗎？就是對於整個產業的支持、照顧跟協助的部分，會再做一些增加嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以現在來看，應該會是滾動式調整啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在來看在我們的經濟能力，應該是可以先往前走，推動應該是夠的，但是還是要看後續的變動。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，現在暫定用930億來推，後面隨時再做滾動式的檢討，但如果有需要，隨時可以再做追加的部分，然後給予……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，尤其我們有很大的金額是在支持它的出貨成本，因為它需要被支持，出貨量越大，支持的金額就會往上拉。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個隨著談判的結果越來越清楚之後，當然就會更明確一些，就是現在是這樣子做、這樣子列，但是將來談判結果更明確之後，就有更明確的一些做法。當然還不足、還不夠的部分，政府也會持續……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會再來調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：政府挺企業這件事情是沒有問題的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是絕對沒有問題的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：而且政府挺農、漁民這件事情也是沒有問題的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是絕對的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣的態度至少讓國人放心啦！就是我們努力地談到最好的結果，但是談完之後，如果有任何產業受到影響，政府也絕對會挺相關的產業跟農、漁民到底。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這裡面除了農業經濟的產業以外，還有穩定就業的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個都要持續進行，這也是政府的主要目的。我看到報告裡面，政府今年還是會維持GDP成長3%的目標，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，現在是很有信心啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：很有信心嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該沒太大的問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為上半年看起來狀況是相當的不錯。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，然後下半年主要有兩個支柱會產生，一個是手機的拉貨潮，第二個是AI，GB300新model的出貨，這兩塊都會帶動。"],["賴委員瑞隆：希望國發會跟各部會密切的注意。我們來看一下燈號的部分，到5月、6月其實已經進入綠燈，所以在景氣上面這樣的狀況，主委擔憂嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在景氣的狀況是進入穩定期，綠燈是穩定期，我們是審慎地去規劃後面，所以才會希望來推動擴大內需，如果下半年有什麼比較大的變化，可以把……"],["賴委員瑞隆：下半年的景氣狀況，主委怎麼看待？怎麼預估？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：下半年景氣其實是值得關注的，我們還是會很謹慎去觀察，應該……"],["賴委員瑞隆：趨勢上呢？就國發會的評估跟判斷呢？因為你們的評估判斷會影響到怎麼樣投入這些相關的資源。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：趨勢上應該會跟去年接近，就是會比上半年差，但跟去年接近，也就是成長力道相較於去年，大概會在1或一點多。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望密切注意這整個狀況，好不好？也請國發會持續關注。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以相較於去年下半年有微幅成長，但就是沒有那麼大的幅度，我們現在大概已經是全世界最好的上半年。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是下半年的部分還是請持續地關注這樣子的狀況。謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我大概第一個主要是我們上半年已經到6.67了這個我知道在報告裡面有的所以我只要一句話就是今天基本上主委願意代表政府你們還是會今年的經濟成長率全力保三嗎"},{"start":61.212,"end":83.964,"text":"會會會 因為下半年還有Apple的那種手機拉貨槽還有那個NVIDIA的GB300的拉貨槽所以覺得還有百分之三以上還是有希望好 今天在美國公布半導體稅率因為它的附加條件只要在美國有投資或者你承諾投資都可以豁免的百分之百"},{"start":85.065,"end":99.679,"text":"那立刻在股市也做了反映台積電大漲像鴻海大漲因為台積電跟鴻海在美國都有投資可是就如同剛才很多委員所說的我們看下一頁"},{"start":100.78,"end":107.845,"text":"有很多的大廠其實都沒有在美國投資到目前為止所以譬如說聯發科、瑞玉、華邦電、矽創當然還是不止這些公司而已所以對於這些台廠的影響百分之百的稅率事實上是不可承受之重"},{"start":123.556,"end":124.998,"text":"所以他必然出現一個趨勢也就是迫使台灣的這些半導體相關的廠商他必須到美國去投資不然他就沒有辦法豁免那百分之百嘛那這就會出現一個我們過去也非常擔心的"},{"start":144.11,"end":147.555,"text":"台積電到了美國我們說它變成美積電但是事實上在今年初川普上來之後就有一個趨勢我們現在是沉篡沉重的一起到美國去考察"},{"start":159.634,"end":161.915,"text":"所以當時就會非常擔心台積電過去還不夠整個足科恐怕都要搬過去因為確實我們來看確實很多的廠商陸陸續續比如廣達、合碩、仁寶、偉創、音業達等等都陸陸續續的從去年底開始就有設廠的計畫或者是設研發中心的計畫而且這樣的趨勢會是一直持續"},{"start":189.204,"end":205.263,"text":"所以作為國發會主委來說對於未來我們的高科技電子產業特別半導體的部分主委你擔不擔心不只台積電要過去整個竹科也會搬過去"},{"start":206.858,"end":234.894,"text":"對我們來看第一個廠商只要是跟流台灣的那這個做全球佈局這個倒不一定就是一定壞事我們比較擔心的是像當年很多中小企業是整個把台灣關掉搬走的我們會比較在意這一種但是以目前這個趨勢來看我想您大概業界也會聽到很多的企業都有在講到美國生產的成本是比較高的"},{"start":236.034,"end":257.489,"text":"所以大家都是針對美國市場去做移動不是針對他全球的市場做移動第二個業者也會開始在做全球其他市場的佈局所以第二個事情我們在開始擴大的內需的方案裡面我們像AI新四大建設就會發展更多的新技術然後擴大國內市場的需求"},{"start":258.61,"end":261.573,"text":"所以就半導體產業來說半導體產業來說國內的市場還是非常小我們已經佔了全球的四分之一那台積電更多將近七成之多那當然我們有我們的優勢"},{"start":275.325,"end":280.047,"text":"所以台積電其實百分之百對他來說他就是有優勢但是並不是所有的相關的產業鏈的產業他都有同樣的優勢所以我覺得這一點是我們必須非常非常小心的也就是不要變成整個竹科或者南科我們好不容易幾十年來的心血"},{"start":296.792,"end":301.173,"text":"因為這一次美國對半導體產業科百分之百的關稅把我們的根都已經把它剷除了這點我希望在我們整個的未來的因應裡面一定要把這個考慮進去另外第三個問題其實主委剛上任的時候曾經對核電其實你並不排斥但是整個的政府的氛圍使得你們必須改口"},{"start":326.042,"end":339.91,"text":"823就有一個核三研議的公投當然我們會全力的來推動所以我想請問主委作為一個專業系你剛講你來自業界也跟業界有很好的互動我相信從業界來講沒有人會認為說核三不應該研議"},{"start":344.092,"end":364.51,"text":"所以您同不同意如果核酸可以做演绎的话对于现在尤其我们高科技产业对于我们AI产业现在面对的新的美国贸易战的变局对于我们业者来降低成本跟留台湾是有帮助的"},{"start":365.994,"end":373.258,"text":"我現在看到產業比較找我討論的比較是他需要更多的綠電來因應他的R100或R150"},{"start":375.592,"end":399.206,"text":"那看起來台灣對綠電的缺需是比較高的目前的狀態所以確實核酸原液應該有幫助吧就永續的部分我們會我們事實上會我們大部分都是在協助多元綠能的發展包括在這個地熱的發展甚至我們也協助訂的氫能源政策"},{"start":400.046,"end":410.572,"text":"大概會我們希望能夠盡快的去滿足尤其是半導體業者對於綠電的需求那非常的急迫所以我們大部分現在我知道你還在迴避這個話題但是呢就台灣的這個這個能源的永續經營產業的永續經營其實台灣真的走在一個實質路口我覺得我還是會鼓勵我們的尤其來自業界的向主委還是能夠本於你的專業願意說真話"},{"start":431.205,"end":434.732,"text":"不然的話你對產業來講根本就是雙重還不甚至三重的打擊好 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主席謝謝好 有請教育部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長好今天有一份報告是在講教師人力要怎麼補足的問題確實現在這個問題是非常嚴重我們就看代理教師就好了這是媒體的報導然後是各縣市預估"},{"start":35.413,"end":41.718,"text":"但也就是可能缺額的狀況像新北市預估大概有2672位桃園1642位台北1400位苗栗也有1177位情況應該是非常的嚴重"},{"start":50.626,"end":70.411,"text":"那我想問一下部長我不知道你有沒有掌握這個狀況因為你只要稍微去跟學校了解一下你就知道以前是在招比如在招代理教師的時候一招二招大部分都是有教師證的去應徵嘛然後到三招之後可能可以開放沒有教師證的現在可能在"},{"start":71.611,"end":86.355,"text":"這樣的情況可能是可能一招二招就沒有叫施政人都去應徵而且還可能都應徵不到所以這是其實是一個蠻嚴重的問題我覺得是一個蠻嚴重的問題一定要提出對策就像之前大家也在講國軍的邊線筆"},{"start":88.416,"end":107.058,"text":"有很大的落差所以立法院就有通過一個幫國軍加薪的方案那現在國軍在招募人才方面就有比較順利 相對比較順利所以我覺得不能讓這個情況持續惡化下去好 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站在教育的立場"},{"start":260.351,"end":283.698,"text":"當然是可以去檢舉譬如說有的老師可能情緒有問題啊或者是他也許真的是某方面如何如何檢舉你們會產生校事會議調查但現在是老師動不動就被檢舉而且那個檢舉是不太需要有人事實地務的一個主觀的評論就可以檢舉譬如說我覺得你今天部長講話特別的兇馬上就要成立校事會來調查"},{"start":285.579,"end":308.442,"text":"我覺得部長看起來行為很乖張很囂張你就要被調查可是你可能沒有啊這個人的主觀意識啊一句話就可以把你送校士會議校士會議大概要好幾個月然後老師在這段時間遭受極大壓力所以現在橫河老師因為這樣的狀況就有的時候他們就會跟學弟妹講說我建議你就不要來當老師了"},{"start":309.463,"end":327.146,"text":"所以你可以看台北市教育局啊在他們接受媒體訪問怎麼講他說現在也不是說什麼原額不原額的問題啊現在是有很多具備資格的人他都不想要投入這個產業啊所以第一個是你要想辦法我建議你啦我真的建議部長"},{"start":328.067,"end":346.486,"text":"因為您之前也是國教出身的嘛只是後來去高教嘛那也許有脫離一段時間環境變化很大去跟老師座談一下真正實地去問他們為什麼你們現在覺得你們學弟妹不願意來然後你們覺得在這個工作上面是有哪些挫折"},{"start":347.327,"end":373.823,"text":"真的去認真了解然後對證效果像我剛舉那個校事會議坦白說我就認為給他們很大的壓力了其實我們校事會議這個確實怎麼樣去落實讓他分流初步的審查分流而不要動不動全部都到校事會議裡邊那你要提出辦法來處理嘛因為現在我講的是現狀嘛現狀就是這樣啊那老師因為很怕無緣無故被檢舉所以什麼事情都採的比較保守的態度啊"},{"start":375.524,"end":395.914,"text":"那這其實最後受害的還是學生啊因為老師就會變得我多做多錯嘛會有這種心理壓力嘛所以在制度上你要做改善好不好不然我是不是建議你跟老師聊一聊好不好去了解一下他們狀況然後在環境上的改變謝謝委員你會做嗎可以沒有問題那什麼時候要做"},{"start":397.101,"end":421.523,"text":"隨時可以做隨時是什麼時候嘛每次我們在這邊好像都在跟你講了然後你講了你每次都說你建議的不錯八月底之前我下次再來問你問你跟老師們聊怎麼樣然後制度上怎麼改善第二個待遇啦因為剛剛舉軍人的例子嘛待遇啦像我其實碰到蠻多老師跟我反映導師費行政費這兩件事情導師費現在一個月三千塊對不對"},{"start":423.069,"end":428.981,"text":"其實已經很久沒有調了啦還有另外一個是行政費行政費按照值級最低組長是4500塊"},{"start":431.304,"end":459.309,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請教育部我覺得統一編預算來補助因為以前講到這個你們都會去扯說那是地方政府啊要負責啊裁員如何如何我覺得如果一體式全國一體適用的話其實可以由教育部來編預算來做補助因為這已經第一個很久沒有條了而且剛剛我有聽到其他委員講那個行政大逃亡我也很關心這個議題行政大逃亡很多行政職不願意兼行政就是覺得兼的好像也沒有"},{"start":460.336,"end":480.209,"text":"付出非常多可是能夠得到的收穫甚至我講的也不見得一定是錢尊重也都沒有我覺得尊重也都沒有所以這導師費行政費這兩個可不可以八月底以後我也來跟你請教一下能不能也訂定一個你覺得合理的因為你很久沒有很久沒有調了嗎可以嗎"},{"start":482.901,"end":508.123,"text":"我想說我們事實上也都一直有在規劃研議規劃那種8月底來問你那也跟人事總署也做了一些適度的一些懷疑謝謝部長 謝謝你有在規劃那我們要如果趕快規劃跟老師講啊大家才會更多誘因嘛得到尊重 然後待遇才會投入這個教學的環境嘛可以嗎好不好 盡快啦也是8月以後來問你啦還有再來問 跟你請教一個問題喔"},{"start":509.344,"end":530.966,"text":"我有發現那個學我沒有一個教育部有一個學產基金嘛對吧是一個學產基金那在去年底的時候忽然間訂了一個修訂了那個保管的規則啊增訂說本基金為了增加收益可以購買政府公債國庫債上市公司股票跟其他短期票券不知道為什麼會做這樣的改變"},{"start":533.39,"end":561.417,"text":"我想我們這一個學產基金因為當然希望說如果它能夠透過這一個好的一個投資一個健康的一個投資能夠增加一些經費純粹是為了增加收益是不是這個收益事實上是有一定的一個比例是反映在支持許多這個弱勢學生或者許多的獎助學金或者等等的一些補助當然這個基金如果可以有獲利然後可以反映我們都支持"},{"start":561.957,"end":573.608,"text":"是忽然做出這樣的因為這個基金就有了解是三百多年三百多年歷史耶這從清朝時代就有了委員會裡面他們對教育部的一個建議那我跟您請教一下因為我"},{"start":575.666,"end":604.846,"text":"我有兩個建議啦第一個學衍基金說要去投資上智慧公司或公債什麼但是他並沒有揭露他到底要他到底是投資哪些項目我覺得事實應該要揭露啦因為這個基金其實蠻重要他是早期很多先人把房產捐出來然後成立一個基金然後給親台的學生然後弱勢家庭讓他們可以支持他們的教育所以這個基金非常重要我覺得應該也是要受到一定的監督所以第一個你們如果未來投資什麼"},{"start":605.626,"end":624.329,"text":"希望可以比照像勞動基金啊什麼來做一個適當揭露是我們每年都會在八月八月底之前會公佈因為它以前都是不動產是那不動產因為它的價值比較沒有那麼感謝委員提醒啦我想所有的投資一定是要健康合法對這一個有序的這第一個第二個是"},{"start":625.663,"end":651.261,"text":"因為大家知道現在關稅的問題所以賴總統在五月份他的就職一週年他說台灣可能會成立主權基金那成立主權基金其實坦白講台灣成立主權基金的條件和中東那些國家不一樣因為中東那些國家是出口天然氣、石油、有外匯多賺的錢成立主權基金然後再做海外的投資所以投資的項目都是高風險、高報酬的"},{"start":652.702,"end":677.006,"text":"那我們現在台灣我不知道要用什麼錢來成立主權基金是要舉債還是怎麼樣那如果你是舉債又去投資高風險高報酬的一些項目的話那當然風險大家那雖然承擔風險比例就高那我是為什麼這跟教育部有關呢因為我看到勞動部他是這樣講的他說如果政府有成立主權基金然後主權基金又要發行債券來籌措的話勞動基金是可以購買"},{"start":679.967,"end":695.674,"text":"坦白說我是覺得這蠻奇怪因為勞動基金應該就是要保障勞工的權益啦那個基金應該是這樣請問一下我們這個學產基金我們規模300多億對不對每年收益8億嘛300多億嘛到時候學產基金會不會跟勞動不一樣就是說把這個錢去挹注到我們政府發行的主權基金裡面會嗎"},{"start":704.892,"end":711.454,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前並沒有這樣一個規劃沒有規劃因為過去也從來沒有投資過所以你們去年底改變的做法啊所以才問你啊確實上個禮拜這個內部有在討論討論投資主權基金沒有有一點點錢可以用來在國內國內的這些"},{"start":726.377,"end":745.668,"text":"上市貴公司能夠來看投資那初步呢我們其實有一些但是還沒有定案因為我總覺得你所有的投資一定要是有一個更專業的一些會議上來形成那當然內部也跟我們報告他們有一個其實也很"},{"start":746.468,"end":774.035,"text":"平穩的一個想像就是國內的14家公股銀行然後找前5家3年內績效最好的就定存看怎麼樣用比定存的一個好的一個利率能夠希望能夠增加我想這個基本上到目前因為所有的委員會也等於投資的這個委員會也還沒有形成也內部僅此一再一個所以到時候會成立一個投資委員會"},{"start":774.835,"end":796.995,"text":"我是建議而不是你一定要成立啊不然你找一些投資門外漢來這邊投資我們只是小額的一個投資沒有很小額喔300多億沒有沒有我們最多大概就是幾千萬拿幾千萬出來投而已啦是不是OK最好是這樣啦我們目前大概的規劃大概就是這樣而已所以我們並沒有這個大致項OK好好謝謝謝謝葉原"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":997,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時29分）請教育部長。主席，謝謝。"],["主席：有請教育部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。今天你有一份報告是在講教師人力要怎麼補足的問題，確實現在這個問題是非常嚴重，我們就看代理教師好了，這是媒體的報導，各縣市預估代理教師可能缺額的狀況，像新北市預估大概有2,672位，桃園1,642位，臺北1,400位，苗栗也有1,177位，情況應該是非常嚴重，我不知道部長有沒有掌握這個狀況，因為你只要稍微去跟學校了解一下就知道，比如以前在招代理教師的時候，一招、二招大部分都是有教師證的人去應徵，三招之後可能可以開放給沒有教師證的人，但現在的情況，可能一招、二招都是沒有教師證的人去應徵，而且還可能都招聘不到人，這其實是一個蠻嚴重的問題，我覺得是蠻嚴重的問題，一定要提出對策。像之前大家也提到國軍編現比有很大落差，所以立法院就通過一個幫國軍加薪的方案，現在國軍在招募人才方面就相對比較順利，所以我覺得不能讓這個情況持續惡化下去，請問代理教師部分，你有特別了解要用什麼方式來解決嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上以去年來講，像新北市我們有看到一些缺額，然後我們就是跟張局長保持熱線在聯繫，國教署也每個禮拜都跟教育局處保持聯繫，等於我們除了有這一個能夠提供一些想要擔任教學工作的老師一個媒合平臺以外，地方縣市大概通常會在8月底之前、開學之前都會一次一次的招聘……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你沒有回答我的問題，我現在是把現象跟你說明，然後問你要怎麼解決，這是結構性的問題，不是說你有跟哪一個縣市聯繫的問題，你要去解決結構性問題，就像我剛剛舉國軍的例子，如果是待遇或其他問題，我們要對症下藥，讓環境變好，我現在講的是結構性問題，不是講說你有跟……"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意委員所提的。"],["葉委員元之：對，我沒有說你跟……第一個，我個人認為這個問題很嚴重，但剛剛初步聽你的回答，你並沒有直指問題核心來回答……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實在政策上，教育部從111年就訂有一個辦法……"],["葉委員元之：111年？我現在講的是……"],["鄭部長英耀：111學年度開始，我們就……為什麼會有很多代課、代理老師缺額？現在各縣市開始大量報正式教師缺額出來、開始招考，是因為我們在地方的獎補助方面，要求教師員額控留比率不能超過8%，這也造成這幾年臺灣各縣市政府就會把名額開出來，當然我們也可以理解因為少子化問題，當然各縣市……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你這樣講還是沒有講到問題的核心，現在的問題是代理教師缺額，是沒有人要來應徵，而不是說你開幾個員額出來的問題，我覺得大家要面對問題，今天我也不是來責備你，但我覺得教育的問題要處理、環境要改善。我這邊就直接講兩個建議，第一個建議，建議部長自己去學校跟老師座談，了解現在的教學環境是怎麼樣，比如有一些老師動不動就被檢舉，我覺得如果老師有問題，站在家長、站在教育的立場，當然可以檢舉，比如有的老師可能情緒有問題，或者他也許真的某方面如何如何，一旦檢舉，你們就會召開校事會議調查，但現在是老師動不動就被檢舉，而且那個檢舉是不太需要有人事時地物，一個主觀的評論就可以檢舉，比如我覺得部長今天講話特別兇，馬上就要成立校事會議調查；我覺得部長看起來行為很乖張、很囂張，你就要被調查，可是你可能沒有，這個是個人的主觀意識，一句話就可以把你送校事會議，校事會議大概要延續好幾個月，老師在這段時間就會遭受極大壓力，所以現在很多老師因為這樣的狀況，就會建議學弟妹們不要來當老師，你可以看臺北市教育局在接受媒體訪問時是怎麼講的？他說現在也不是什麼員額不員額的問題，現在是很多具備資格的人都不想投入這個產業。所以第一個，你要想辦法，我真的建議部長，因為你之前也是國教出身，只是後來轉去高教，也許已經脫離一段時間，環境變化很大，但是去跟老師座談一下，真正實地去問他們為什麼現在的學弟妹們都不願意來，然後問他們覺得在這個工作上有哪些挫折等等，真的去認真了解，然後對症下藥，像我剛剛舉的那個校事會議，坦白說，我就認為給他們很大的壓力……"],["鄭部長英耀：確實我們校事會議要怎麼落實，讓它初步的審查能夠分流，不要動不動全部都到校事會議，我想……"],["葉委員元之：那你要提出辦法解決，因為我講的是現狀，現狀就是這樣，老師因為很怕無緣無故被檢舉，所以什麼事情都採取比較保守的態度，最後受害的其實還是學生，因為老師就覺得多做多錯，會有這樣的心理壓力，所以制度上你要改善，好不好？部長，我建議你真的要跟老師聊一聊，了解他們的狀況，然後在環境上有所改變。"],["鄭部長英耀：好的，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["葉委員元之：你會做嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，沒有問題。"],["葉委員元之：那什麼時候要做？"],["鄭部長英耀：我隨時可以做。"],["葉委員元之：隨時是什麼時候嘛？好像每次我們在這邊跟你講了，然後你每次都說建議不錯，之後……"],["鄭部長英耀：8月底之前。"],["葉委員元之：8月底之前？好，那我下次再問你，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["葉委員元之：問你跟老師們聊得怎麼樣，制度上怎麼改善？"],["鄭部長英耀：OK。"],["葉委員元之：第二個，待遇問題。剛剛也舉了軍人的例子，其實我碰到滿多老師跟我反映導師費、行政費這兩件事情，導師費現在一個月3,000塊，對不對？其實已經很久沒有調整了，另外一個是行政費，行政費按照職級，最低的組長是4,500塊，這個部分是不是可以請教育部統一編列預算來補助？以前講到這個部分，你們都會扯說那是地方政府要負責、財源如何如何，我覺得如果全國一體適用，就可以由教育部編預算補助，因為這已經很久沒有調整，而且剛剛我也聽到其他委員提到所謂的行政大逃亡，我也很關心這個議題，很多老師不願意兼行政職，就是覺得兼任要付出非常多，可是能夠得到的收穫，我講的也不見得一定是錢，有些可能連尊重都沒有，所以導師費、行政費這兩個部分，8月底後我也一併跟你請教，能不能訂定一個你覺得合理的費用？因為也很久沒有調了，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上這部分一直都有在規劃、研議……"],["葉委員元之：規劃？那我們8月底再來問你？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟人事總處也做了一些適度的反映。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝部長，謝謝你有在規劃，那要趕快規劃，要跟老師講，這樣才會有更多誘因；得到尊重，然後也有待遇，他們才會投入這個教學環境，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：好不好？儘快啦！也是8月以後再請問你。還有再跟你請教一個問題，就是教育部有一個學產基金，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：學產基金在去年底的時候，忽然修訂了保管規則，增訂該基金為了增加收益，可以購買政府公債、國庫券、上市公司股票跟其他短期票券，請問部長，為什麼會做這樣的改變？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們這個學產基金，當然是希望透過好的投資、健康的投資，能夠增加一些經費……"],["葉委員元之：純粹是為了增加收益，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個收益事實上是有一定比例反映在支持許多弱勢學生，或者許多獎助學金等等一些……"],["葉委員元之：當然啊！這個基金如果有獲利，當然可以反映在支持弱勢的部分，這些我們都支持，只是忽然做出這樣的決定，因為據我了解，這個基金已經有三百多年歷史，是從清朝時代就有了。"],["鄭部長英耀：是委員會對教育部的建議啦！"],["葉委員元之：好，這樣我有兩點建議，第一，學產基金要投資上市櫃公司或公債什麼的，但並沒有揭露它到底投資哪些項目，我覺得應該適時揭露，因為這個基金蠻重要的，它是早期很多先人把房產捐出來所成立的基金，然後支持清寒學生、弱勢家庭學生的教育，所以這個基金非常重要，我覺得應該要有一定的監督，所以第一個，未來如果投資什麼，希望可以比照勞動基金等，做一個適當揭露。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們每年都會在8月底之前公布。"],["葉委員元之：因為以前都是不動產，不動產的價值比較沒有那麼……"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員提醒，我想所有的投資一定都是要健康、合法、有序的。"],["葉委員元之：對，這第一個。第二個，大家知道因為關稅問題，所以賴總統在5月份就職一週年時提到，臺灣可能會成立主權基金。坦白講，臺灣成立主權基金的條件和中東那些國家不一樣，因為中東那些國家是出口天然氣、石油，有外匯，多賺的錢就成立主權基金，然後再做海外的投資，所以投資的項目都是高風險、高報酬的。現在我就不知道臺灣要用什麼錢來成立主權基金了，是要舉債還是怎麼樣？如果你是舉債去投資高風險、高報酬的一些項目的話，納稅人承擔的風險比例就高，這個為什麼跟教育部有關呢？因為我看到勞動部是這樣講的，它說如果政府有成立主權基金，主權基金又要以發行債券來籌措的話，勞動基金是可以購買的，但坦白說我是覺得這個還滿奇怪的，因為勞動基金應該就是要保障勞工的權益，那個基金應該是這樣。請問一下，學產基金的規模有三百多億，對不對？每年的收益是8億，總共是三百多億嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：有三百三十多億。"],["葉委員元之：到時候學產基金會不會跟勞動部一樣，就是把這個錢挹注到政府發行的主權基金裡面，會嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們目前並沒有這樣一個規劃。"],["葉委員元之：沒有規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為過去也從來沒有投資過，所以我們內部……"],["葉委員元之：你們去年底改變了作法，所以才要問你啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：對，但上個禮拜內部確實有在討論。"],["葉委員元之：是討論投資主權基金嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，有一點點錢可以用來投資國內的這些上市櫃公司，初步……我們其實是有一些，但是也還沒有定案，因為我總覺得所有的投資一定要在更專業的一些會議上形成。當然也要跟委員報告，他們其實也有一個很平穩的想像，就是國內14家的公股銀行，然後找前5家3年內績效最好的就定存……看怎麼樣得到比定存還要好的利率，希望能夠增加，我想這個基本上到目前，因為所有的委員會……等於投資的這個委員會也還沒有形成，內部也僅止於在討論當中。"],["葉委員元之：所以你到時候會成立一個投資委員會？"],["鄭部長英耀：我是建議而不是只是……"],["葉委員元之：你一定要成立呀！不然你找一些投資門外漢來這邊投資？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為目前是考慮到我們只是小額的投資……"],["葉委員元之：沒有很小額喔！有三百多億。"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我們最多大概就是幾千萬，或者……"],["葉委員元之：拿幾千萬出來投而已，是不是？OK，最好是這樣啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前的規劃大概就是這樣而已，並沒有大志向。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b9f2e22cff923f5a69789cec5dbd9ef0650d6523476f0740309b8b8693ecf6548c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"13:04:22 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謝謝主席 有請部長請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":17.096,"end":32.625,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了從早上站到現在真的辛苦了我今天問的第一個問題其實叫失慌已經很多人問過了但是我有幾個數字幾個現場的現象然後也跟非常多老師討論我想要反映給部長左邊這張圖部長可能以為是"},{"start":33.826,"end":50.523,"text":"很可愛的梗圖而已但是我要跟部長說很無奈這個是在教育現場學校為了徵老師連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師才有可能吸睛才有可能被關注才有可能在網路上有流量讓更多除背中的老師看見來這裡應徵"},{"start":53.125,"end":67.93,"text":"右邊這張圖呢是幾年前親子天下寫的文章說如果可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師而那一年建中發生什麼事情資訊教師找不到但是當時在爭這個資訊教師的時候他還刮胡要兼任圖書館主任"},{"start":69.551,"end":84.186,"text":"那後來到PTT上去發文等到招了13招部長13招才找到人我沒有要講個案部長我再一次強調我沒有要講個案大家都看到教師荒的問題我只是舉其中兩個例子下一張"},{"start":85.748,"end":102.166,"text":"那這個新聞截圖呢其實教育部一直都告訴我們你們有相關這些數字剛剛那個羅廷偉委員在問的時候部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分我都聽進去了我們來看一下如果部長用你的邏輯來看現在的數字有問題還是教育部的理解有落差"},{"start":103.047,"end":123.276,"text":"教育部告訴我們新教師六成任教職多元配套確保教學人力這是教育部的新聞稿可是我們看到幾個問題第一個如果按照這個邏輯每一年所取得教師證的人你們認為會有六成甚至越來越提升進入教育現場那我們就要問三成多那四成到哪裡去了"},{"start":124.256,"end":152.535,"text":"為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論第二個"},{"start":156.058,"end":175.698,"text":"師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常的低的如果按照這個邏輯大家都不來當老師所以當然就出現教師荒而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒現在連正式教師也出現教師荒我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字而且今天已經來到八月多了"},{"start":176.138,"end":189.186,"text":"各個縣市開圈應徵報到的狀況你可能也大略有所掌握我必須要說這些數字可能都很驚人教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道我等一下想請部長一起回答下一張"},{"start":191.158,"end":205.637,"text":"我想要講的是一定有一些原因導致於大家不想當正式老師也不想當代理老師到底教育部這幾年的解決方案如同部長你說的你沒有解決方案可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":206.118,"end":222.937,"text":"我們來看這個數字這個數字是你們給我的部長我們辦公室跟你們所知我跟部長討論一下最左邊這一張呢是依照教育部的統計資料國小教師的總人數越來越多當然是有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變正式老師可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題中間這張投影片紅色的字"},{"start":227.102,"end":229.503,"text":"從110學年度5594人到112學年度8999人這些紅色的數字是所謂的無證代理教室"},{"start":240.68,"end":263.577,"text":"部長無證這件事情我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業無證的老師沒有熱情搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證九任的老師還要有熱情還要有專業可是在現在教師荒的情況之下很多縣市很多學校不得不打開門十招二十招三十招拜託"},{"start":264.358,"end":287.996,"text":"只要有人願意進學校教書就算沒有證他大學畢業他就可以進來而部長110 112上升了將近60%欸我們的家長如果看到這個數字他會問部長我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔你們要怎麼保證教學品質你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益我認為所有家長都會焦慮"},{"start":290.043,"end":310.043,"text":"這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道但是我們這個是透過公開的公文所知不找這個數字我真的很害怕我們都是來自教育基層我們都在基層待過所以我們一定可以想見無證的狀況跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境但這個困境我們教育部的因應對策是什麼"},{"start":311.404,"end":333.305,"text":"這也是真的讓我很擔心的吳政 我剛剛講吳政我就不再多說了吳政的狀況我相信部長應該知道我們辦公室試著跟非常非常非常多地方教師跟學會跟工會也跟家長討論部長我想要提出一些可能的解方因為今天早上到目前為止有非常多人都跟你講了他們遇到的困境他們從地方收集到的意見"},{"start":334.486,"end":349.425,"text":"有一件事情其實教育部從108課綱上路到現在六七年了一直在逃避面對的問題但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你教育部要不要修園而法"},{"start":350.717,"end":357.166,"text":"原額法有機會動教育現場的困境才能解決因為部長他是一個基生誕誕生期的問題我解釋給您聽如果我今天在教育現場因為108課綱所有的高中老師他額外備課的那些時間你們都沒有算原額給他"},{"start":368.101,"end":388.828,"text":"幫忙cover行政的時間也沒有算時數給他所以現場的老師不僅行政增量他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他所以所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試額外108多出來那些課程都算入他的時數可是你們沒有多人給他所以每一個老師的超時你們怎麼解決400塊500塊終點費解決"},{"start":392.984,"end":399.908,"text":"不是錢的問題部長每一個人都有自己的生活而老師現在幾乎超超超超時上班6點8點9點10點"},{"start":402.188,"end":422.449,"text":"只要有熱情有愛對孩子有負責任心的老師都會願意留下來但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛還有心留在現場的老師所有的老師都告訴我們你源而法跟著108課綱的改變沒有做出改變才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因我知道源而法一動就會動到錢"},{"start":426.155,"end":454.337,"text":"去年才化法又通過了很多錢會到地方去部長我拜託你我要跟你說很多這些錢是地方政府必須要去負擔的教育部要拿出你的肩膀拿出你的勇氣告訴這些執政縣市首長你花在教育端的錢如同剛羅廷偉委員說的不能信你就不能信不能站你就不能站不能逃你就不能逃所以未來各個執政縣市要不要去面對跟你教育部"},{"start":454.758,"end":463.199,"text":"坐下來討論原額法我認為是要的這件事情才能根本的解決現場教師荒的問題"},{"start":464.702,"end":489.487,"text":"行政再怎麼減量各部會還是發公文給學校行政再怎麼減量家長還是半夜打電話給老師行政再怎麼減量孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸更不要講現場還有太多不適應的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師所以如果我們可以讓現場工作人他們合理的減低他們的工作量透過增加員額這件事情真的才能根本的解決"},{"start":490.547,"end":502.339,"text":"第二個 回過頭來教師的薪資調整這件事情我認為一定很多人跟你講過了 部長但是我知道教育部經費有限署長你讓我先講完再跟部長報告好不好"},{"start":504.751,"end":529.6,"text":"我們非常負責任想要提出解方因為指責大家都會可是如果你真心我們辦公室是真的真心想要跟教育部站在一起跟老師們站在一起跟家長站在一起繼而跟學生站在一起所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔最後是教育部要來承擔回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議"},{"start":530.941,"end":540.042,"text":"從校長到主任到現場老師到代理代課老師甚至連特教助理員大家都是因為錢的問題可是現在面對"},{"start":541.778,"end":563.273,"text":"各式各樣社會環境變動經濟因素變動的關係都導致於薪資這件事情真的不是誘因啦部長好 再來落實行政減量這個很多人都講過我就不再講提升教師支持系統有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們家庭教育出了問題所有很多不該不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師"},{"start":564.654,"end":587.155,"text":"孩子們的困境也要找老師家長不會教小孩也要找老師我要談的是整個行政系統的支援真的需要部長您大迫大力有非常多人一定給過您建言如何引進新的思維如何找一兩所關鍵學校開始試辦所謂大迫大力"},{"start":587.936,"end":605.195,"text":"我認為這是大家對部長您的期待所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方其實最重要還是回到原額這件事情所以我要提醒財化法下去之後現在你們已經在編預算了我不確定你們編的預算是有財化法新版還是沒有財化法新版"},{"start":605.876,"end":630.576,"text":"可是我們都知道很多地方的老師的薪水要地方來支付很多地方教育的支出要地方政府來支付我不確定教育部有沒有開始在事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論如果有請拜託把我這些談的事情做下來跟地方政府好好說哪些該中央出的哪些該地方負責的哪些該地方去監督的哪些該中央政府有法規的我認為"},{"start":632.097,"end":640.555,"text":"所有的推脫最後受害的是小孩是家長是老師所以我們辦公室很負責任提出解放拜託部長好嗎"},{"start":642.396,"end":661.425,"text":"謝謝委員的這個不但是發現問題理解問題而且還有一些具體的一些建議我想都非常有價值我們教育部一定會把這些來跟地方看特別剛才提到的顏額就是我們現在的一個小學的顏額大概1.65偏鄉我們是給2.0國中是這個2.2偏鄉是給3.0"},{"start":668.248,"end":681.277,"text":"那這樣是不是能夠支撐到我們現在的大家對教育包括人才培育包括整個社會的一個變遷上所面臨的挑戰包含薪水等等的我想它是一個整體結構上我想我們會認真地很嚴肅地來跟"},{"start":685.28,"end":702.98,"text":"地方來一起來共同來思考看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量謝謝部長 原額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極做下來邀請教育部跟人總 組總一起討論因為這件事情是國家根本的問題如果原額不解決我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來"},{"start":703.841,"end":724.571,"text":"接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾我相信很多委員問過我就不再贅述但是我想要提醒教育部的整個系統裡面有沒有人去理解到社會溝通基層溝通非常的重要到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題到底從中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情中間的落差是什麼"},{"start":725.131,"end":750.082,"text":"所以我們都看到你們的說明但我想我就不再贅述這件事情要拜託部長到底我們在跟地方政府溝通出了什麼問題好嗎所以我們就從最近的一個政策來看我等一下來談體育部未來運動部的事情這個是一個關於署長的專訪體育署署長的專訪談到所謂的運動部9月9號掛牌倒數大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放"},{"start":752.844,"end":780.345,"text":"這邊體育署署長在受訪的時候說我們未來要跟國教署合作希望未來一個禮拜裡面從兩天三天四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課那這個事情當然就引起很多爭議我們就不再贅述可是我要講的是這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策的轉型的人問我說這個是跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎我想要請部長"},{"start":780.927,"end":781.357,"text":"回應一下"},{"start":782.953,"end":809.889,"text":"一個純粹基本上的精神就是說希望說我們的學生小朋友國中小學生不是每天上課排的滿滿的應該讓他們有一些比如說第七節第一年級有一次的有一天的時間讓他們能夠運動社團或者到操場去跑然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的那這個部分呢"},{"start":813.195,"end":834.536,"text":"國教署還編了擔心等於說事實上這些本來他們學校都有排政客那我們希望能不能轉化為一個比較運動休閒有益於青少年小朋友的身心健康本來他是一個好事那而且教育部國教署也編有一些如果你社團的話你要推動幾多不一樣的"},{"start":835.417,"end":851.482,"text":"這個社團是對學生是有價值的但是可能學校這個部分沒有這方面專長的老師他還可以給一些聘兼任的老師來指導社團或者體育各方面的運動的活動我想他的這個想法是"},{"start":853.223,"end":868.589,"text":"好的而且我們是鼓勵地方也跟22個縣市教育局處所長都談過是剛開始是用這個鼓勵的我們總是要學的東西不可能老師全部教完教滿塞滿我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的一個"},{"start":872.591,"end":882.183,"text":"部長你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來主席你也歡迎你一起看這張投影片的最下面兩句我沒有框起來但是我們的署長是怎麼說的為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢最後這兩句說"},{"start":890.936,"end":909.924,"text":"我們的學校專任運動教練考核在國小那一塊把成績歸零要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動運動推動到時候不只是我們的體育班三點之後如果大家都去參與運動那體育班就沒有存在的必要了學生可以回歸正常的班級上課每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練"},{"start":912.345,"end":923.271,"text":"意思就是說看起來是國教署的事情可是最後拉到體育署甚至拉到未來的運動部對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情我們怎麼能夠不擔心部長"},{"start":924.485,"end":950.544,"text":"是這段話 但是我剛剛非常尊重部長我讓部長您把剛剛第七集的事情好好地講完了全國人民也都聽見了但是我要講的是我非常非常非常我用了三個非常擔心現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況幫忙莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工"},{"start":951.872,"end":972.132,"text":"他會出現一個多大的落差我們來看下一張頭影片體育班的存在說在某些地方有需要我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區縣市開始做如果可以成功轉型就讓他轉型我真的不懂部長我從小是經濟狀況極差極差極差的小孩"},{"start":976.601,"end":985.127,"text":"而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯"},{"start":986.894,"end":1005.531,"text":"我們還是用過去黨國時代用衛福社福的想法在看待體育班請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義而目前為止我不知道這個鍋誰要背是你們教育部未來要背還是運動部要背如果都沒有人要背那我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間就只是為了幫國家奪牌"},{"start":1011.816,"end":1036.506,"text":"過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們不是只有專家學者在告訴你們連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型不要再消耗選手了可是在幾次的公開體育署長的受訪裡面我不確定署長們跟部長您報告但是我看到痛心就是這樣剛剛在教師荒的部分我覺得我非常的平和可是講到這個體育班我真的要問我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩"},{"start":1040.427,"end":1059.906,"text":"而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做那你把我們偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩他就該死嗎他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢找球衣 找球鞋然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做客服所以他們就留在隊上面為學校奪牌 為縣市奪牌未來為全國奪牌"},{"start":1063.39,"end":1085.294,"text":"部長我當面跟您討論體育班的事情討論過非常非常多次講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候會不會九月運動部成立之後有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚情況下被犧牲了跟委員報告我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的"},{"start":1088.922,"end":1106.504,"text":"我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班他只有打球運動事實上我們希望他在學科的學習在整個身心的發展是一個更正常的更全面性的為什麼今天運動部的成立我覺得他是非常有價值的"},{"start":1107.785,"end":1121.336,"text":"等一下部長我跟你說我完全認同你剛剛講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說非常重要二 全國人民真的都非常期待運動部 我跟你一樣但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題我要講的是"},{"start":1125.72,"end":1150.498,"text":"部長我要拜託你一定要密切的跟體育署現在未來要升格成運動部剩下不到一個月的時間了這中間的討論到底哪一些歸你們教育部在未來未來哪一些歸運動部而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙我們大人看起來叫做縫隙在資源不足社區環境不足的小孩面前那叫地獄"},{"start":1152.315,"end":1179.775,"text":"我必須要用這麼嚴正的話因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過十年我要再講一次我們大人我們有資源站在台北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙對於每天在社區在原生家庭裡面被教練逼著走的那些奪牌那些小孩來說那個縫隙叫地獄部長所以我只是要告訴您在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題才會導致於我們看下一張投影片現在我們手上拿到的運動部的規劃是長這樣"},{"start":1182.536,"end":1200.267,"text":"競技運動司部長第八項學校體育班制度跟學校專任運動教練政策是規劃法規研修及督導他被放在競技運動司欸有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段這些小孩繼續被當工具人繼續犧牲"},{"start":1203.359,"end":1218.564,"text":"然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野"},{"start":1220.265,"end":1234.661,"text":"什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說原來我被犧牲了就如陳潔倩說她是到日本去念書她才知道簡齊生說她到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的"},{"start":1237.171,"end":1263.564,"text":"而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎"},{"start":1266.24,"end":1278.837,"text":"他一旦一直被框在競技運動私底下我們就不可能走出奪牌思維工具人思維這是很現實的因為業務分工一下去他就是長成像這樣對不對 部長"},{"start":1281.428,"end":1300.806,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們運動部的一個成立事實上就是希望全民健康運動成為一種生活的態度然後確保全國人的一個健康那我們看到運動部其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會就是我們看到史丹佛大學去年的奧運他一個"},{"start":1301.687,"end":1330.999,"text":"史丹佛大學的一個這個名校有學生拿了三十幾塊的金銀銅牌這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數精英的一個運動人才培育我們希望把pool做大讓全民都運動全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡邊所有的不管是官員或者我民意代表有很多人的運動也非常好但是他們沒有選擇往運動那個方向我們總是希望"},{"start":1331.559,"end":1352.101,"text":"大家是健康的但是我們未來的為國家能夠爭取榮耀的已經不是那一個體育班而已他可能是有更多的人我想委員剛才所非常熱心這個關切的我們一定會來深切的來檢討看怎麼樣讓他在未來的一個體育署"},{"start":1353.202,"end":1367.455,"text":"體育組改為運動部的時候能夠真正的能夠照我們的一個理想能夠來逐步來實現謝謝部長那個未及答覆的麻煩就書面答覆陳培委員還沒有有拜託再給我一下下拜託"},{"start":1368.456,"end":1368.836,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這是我們應該做的"},{"start":1392.099,"end":1394.16,"text":"我們之前在台中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後我們要求教育部要做不適任人員清查制度的破口"},{"start":1413.545,"end":1430.399,"text":"我們要求你們去做這個事情結果回覆出來的一次一次回覆目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任可是如果沒有去查這些人都還在教育現場但非常可怕的是目前還有台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣沒有回覆"},{"start":1431.563,"end":1454.235,"text":"這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良"},{"start":1457.837,"end":1479.358,"text":"第二个定期公告教育部所属跟各县市高中以下学校不适任人员查询的状况还有部长我刚跟你说的迟迟不回的台中市新竹县新竹市南投县云林县请你们继续追踪这些资料可以再跟我们办公室索取好吗好谢谢谢谢主席谢谢陈培宇委员的质询官员请回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":968,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時4分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長辛苦了，從早上站到現在，真的辛苦了。我今天要問的第一個問題是關於教師荒，其實已經很多人問過了，但是我有幾個數字、幾個現場的現象，也跟非常多的老師討論，我想要反映給部長。左邊這張圖，部長可能以為是很可愛的梗圖而已，但我要跟部長說，很無奈！這個是在教育現場，學校為了徵老師，連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師，才有可能吸睛、才有可能被關注、才有可能在網路上有流量，讓更多儲備中的老師看見之後來這裡應徵。右邊這張圖是幾年前親子天下寫的文章，「如果可以去護國神山，誰要當代理教師？」而那一年建中發生什麼事情？找不到資訊教師，但是當時在徵資訊教師的時候，他們還括弧要兼任圖書館主任，後來到PTT上去發文，等到招了13招……部長，13招才找到人；我沒有要講個案，部長，我再次強調，我沒有要講個案，大家都看到教師荒的問題，我只是舉其中兩個例子。","看下一張簡報的新聞截圖，其實教育部一直都告訴我們，你們有相關的這些數字，剛剛羅廷瑋委員在問的時候，部長甚至還談到後端師資培育的部分，我都聽進去了，我們來看一下，如果用部長你的邏輯來看，現在的數字有問題，還是教育部的理解有落差？教育部告訴我們，新教師六成任教職，多元配套確保教學人力，這是教育部的新聞稿，可是我們看到幾個問題，第一個，如果按照這個邏輯，每一年取得教師證的人，你們認為會有六成，甚至越來越提升，進入到教育現場，那我們就要問，三成多跟四成到哪裡去了？為什麼不進教育現場？教育現場發生什麼問題，讓這些修了教育學程、拿了證，甚至可能是本科、本系、本專任學校，所謂師大、彰師大這些學校的人都不願意去當老師？我認為這真的是我們要一起面對的，我不認為是只有教育部的問題，我認為所有立法委員、所有區域立委，聽到民意的都要一起面對，關心教育的人都要一起面對。所以我很想問，到底找不到老師是為什麼？我們辦公室自己做了研究，等一下跟部長討論。","第二個，師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常低的，如果按照這個邏輯，大家都不來當老師，當然就出現教師荒，而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒，現在連正式教師也出現教師荒，我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字，而且今天已經來到8月多了，各個縣市開缺應徵報到的狀況，你可能也大略有所掌握，我必須要說，這些數字可能都很驚人，教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道？我等一下想要請部長一起回答。","下一張簡報，我想要講的是，一定有一些原因導致大家不想當正式老師，也不想當代理老師，到底教育部這幾年的解決方案，如同部長說的，你們有解決方案，可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情？我們來看這個數字，部長，這個數字是你們給我的，我們辦公室跟你們索資。我跟部長討論一下，最左邊這一張是依照教育部的統計資料，國小教師的總人數越來越多，當然是因為有很多正式老師從代理代課老師上岸變成正式老師，可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題，中間這張投影片上紅色的字，從110學年度5,594人到112學年度8,999人，這些紅色數字是所謂的無證代理教師。部長，關於無證這件事情，我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業、無證的老師沒有熱情，搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證、久任的老師還要有熱情，還要有專業，可是在現在教師荒的情況之下，很多縣市、很多學校不得不打開門，10招、20招、30招。拜託，只要有人願意進學校教書，就算沒有證，他大學畢業就可以進來。部長，110年到112年上升了將近百分之六十，家長如果看到這個數字，他會問：部長，我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔？你們要怎麼保證教學品質？你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益？我認為所有家長都會焦慮，這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道，但我們是透過公開的公文索資。部長，這個數字我真的很害怕，我們都是來自教育基層，我們都在基層待過，所以我們一定可以想見無證跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境，對於這個困境，教育部的因應對策是什麼？這也真的是讓我很擔心的。","我剛剛講無證，我就不再多說了，無證的狀況，我相信部長應該知道。我們辦公室試著跟非常非常多的地方教師、學會、工會及家長討論，部長，我想要提出一些可能的解方，因為今天早上到目前為止，有非常多人都跟你講他們遇到的困境，他們從地方收集到的意見，有一件事情其實是教育部從108課綱上路到現在六、七年了，一直在逃避面對的問題，但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你，教育部要不要修員額法，員額法有機會動，教育現場的困境才能解決。部長，因為它是一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，我解釋給您聽。如果我今天在教育現場，因為108課綱所有的高中老師額外備課的時間，你們都沒有算員額給他，他要幫忙cover行政的時間，也沒有算時數給他，現場的老師不僅行政增量，他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他，所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試108課綱額外多出來的課程，都算入他的時數，可是你們沒有多給他人，請問每一個老師的超時，你們怎麼解決？四百塊、五百塊鐘點費解決，不是錢的問題，部長。每一個人都有自己的生活，而老師現在幾乎超時上班到六點、八點、九點、十點，只要有熱情、有愛、對孩子有責任心的老師都會願意留下來，但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛、還有心留在現場的老師。所有的老師都告訴我們，員額法沒有跟著108課綱的改變而做出改變，才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因。我知道員額法一動就會動到錢，去年財劃法又通過了，很多錢會到地方去，部長，我拜託你，我要跟你說，這些錢很多是地方政府必須要去負擔的，教育部要拿出你的肩膀、拿出你的勇氣，告訴這些執政縣市首長，你花在教育端的錢，如同剛剛羅廷瑋委員說的不能省就是不能省，不能偷你就是不能偷，所以未來各個執政縣市要不要跟你教育部坐下來討論員額法？我認為是要的，這件事情才能根本解決現場教師荒的問題。行政再怎麼減量，各部會還是發公文給學校；行政再怎麼減量，家長還是半夜打電話給老師；行政再怎麼減量，孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸，更不要講現場還有太多不適任的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師。所以如果我們可以合理的減低現場工作人員的工作量，透過增加員額才能真的根本解決。","第二個，回過頭來談教師薪資調整這件事情，我認為一定很多人跟你講過了，部長，但是我知道教育部經費有限。署長，你讓我先講完，再跟部長報告，好不好？我們非常負責任的想要提出解方，因為指責大家都會，可是如果你真心，我們辦公室是真心想要跟教育部站在一起、跟老師們站在一起、跟家長站在一起，繼而跟學生站在一起，所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔，最後是教育部要來承擔。回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情，我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議，從校長到主任、到現場老師、到代理、代課老師，甚至連特教助理員，大家都是因為錢的問題，現在面對各式各樣社會環境變動、經濟因素變動的關係，都導致薪資真的不是誘因，部長。","再來，落實行政減量，這個很多人都講過，我就不再講。提升教師支持系統，有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們，家庭教育出了問題，很多不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師，孩子們的困境要找老師，家長不會教小孩也要找老師，我要談的是整個行政系統的支援，真的需要部長您大破大立。有非常多人一定給過您建言，如何引進新的思維，如何找一、兩所關鍵學校開始試辦，所謂大破大立，我認為這是大家對部長您的期待，所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方，其實最重要的還是回到員額這件事情。我要提醒，財劃法下去之後，現在你們已經在編預算了，我不確定你們編的預算是有財劃法新版還是沒有財劃法新版，可是我們都知道，很多地方老師的薪水要地方來支付，很多地方的教育支出要地方政府來支付，我不確定教育部有沒有開始就事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論，如果有，拜託把我談的這些事情，坐下來跟地方政府好好說，哪些是該中央出的、哪些是該地方負責的、哪些該地方去監督的、哪些該中央政府有法規的，我認為所有的推託，最後受害的是小孩、是家長、是老師，所以我們辦公室很負責任的提出解方，拜託部長！好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的意見，這不但是發現問題、理解問題，而且還有一些具體的建議，我想都非常有價值，我們教育部一定會把這些意見來跟地方談，特別剛才提到的員額，其實我們現在一個小學的員額大概1.65，偏鄉我們是給2.0，國中是2.2，偏鄉是給3.0，這樣是不是能夠支撐到大家對教育包括人才培育，包括整個社會的變遷所面臨的挑戰，包含薪水等等的，我想它是一個整體結構，我們會認真地、很嚴肅地跟地方一起來共同思考，看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量給老師……"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長，員額法的部分我們辦公室很願意積極邀請教育部跟人總、主總一起討論，因為這件事情是國家根本的問題，如果員額不解決，我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來。","接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾，我相信很多委員問過，我就不再贅述，但是我想要提醒教育部整個系統裡面有沒有人理解到社會溝通、基層溝通非常的重要，到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題？到底中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情，中間的落差是什麼？我們都看到你們的說明，我就不再贅述，這件事情要拜託部長去了解到底我們在跟地方政府溝通時出了什麼問題，好嗎？我們就從最近的一個政策來看，我等一下要談未來運動部的事情，這是一個關於體育署署長的專訪，談到運動部9月9號掛牌倒數，大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放，體育署署長在受訪的時候說，我們未來要跟國教署合作，希望未來一個禮拜裡面，從兩天、三天、四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課，這個事情當然就引起很多爭議，我們就不再贅述。可是我要講的是，這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策轉型的人問我說，這跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎？我想要請部長回應一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：一個純粹、基本上的精神就是希望我們的國中、小學生，不是每天上課，排得滿滿的，應該讓他們比如第七節低年級有一些時間讓他們能夠運動、參加社團，或者到操場去跑，然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天，不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的。這個部分事實上本來學校都有排正課，那我們希望能轉化為一個比較運動、休閒、有益於青少年、小朋友身心健康的活動，本來是一件好事，而且教育部、國教署也編有一些……如果學校要推動許多不一樣的社團，對學生是有價值的，但是可能學校在這部分沒有這方面專長的老師，還可以有經費聘兼任老師來指導社團或體育各方面的運動、活動。我想他的想法是好的，而且我們是鼓勵地方，也跟22個縣市教育局處首長都談過，剛開始是用鼓勵的，我們要學的東西，老師總是不可能全部教完、教滿、塞滿，我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的學習……"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來，主席，也歡迎你一起看。這張投影片最下面兩句，我沒有框起來，但是我們的署長是怎麼說的？為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢？最後這兩句說，我們的學校專任運動教練的考核在國小那一塊，把成績歸零，要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動、運動推動，到時候不只是我們的體育班，三點之後如果大家都去參與運動，那體育班就沒有存在的必要了，學生可以回歸正常的班級上課，每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練。意思就是看起來是國教署的事情，可是最後拉到體育署，甚至拉到未來的運動部。對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情，我們怎麼能夠不擔心？部長！是這一段話。但是我剛剛非常尊重部長，我讓部長把剛剛第七節的事情好好的講完了，全國人民也都聽見了，但是我要講的是，我非常、非常、非常擔心，我用了三個非常擔心，現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況，莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋，而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工，它會出現一個多大的落差？體育班的存在，說在某些地方有需要，我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區、縣市開始做，如果可以成功轉型，就讓它轉型。我真的不懂，部長，我從小是經濟狀況極差、極差、極差的小孩，而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力，他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩。請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯？我們還是用過去黨國時代，用衛福、社福的想法在看待體育班，請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義？而目前為止，我不知道這個鍋誰要背？是你們教育部未來要背，還是運動部要背？如果都沒有人要背，我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間，就只是為了幫國家奪牌，過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們，不是只有專家學者在告訴你們，連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型，不要再消耗選手了。可是在幾次體育署長公開的受訪裡面，我不確定署長有沒有跟部長您報告，但是我看到痛心就是這樣。","剛剛在談教師荒的部分，我覺得我非常的平和，可是講到這個體育班，我真的要問，我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩？而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做，那麼偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩，他就該死嗎？他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎？就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢、找球衣、找球鞋，然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做課輔，所以他們就留在隊上面，為學校奪牌、為縣市奪牌，未來為全國奪牌？部長，我當面跟您討論體育班的事情，討論過非常、非常多次，講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩，但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候，會不會9月運動部成立之後，有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚的情況下被犧牲了？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的，我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班，他只有打球、運動，事實上我們希望他在學科的學習、在整個身心的發展，是一個更正常的、更全面性的。為什麼今天運動部的成立，我覺得它是非常有價值的，我們光看到……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，部長，我跟你說，我完全認同你講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說，非常重要；二，全國人民真的都非常期待運動部，我跟你一樣。但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題，我要講的是，部長，我要拜託，你一定要密切的跟體育署討論，未來要升格成運動部，剩下不到一個月的時間了，這中間的討論，未來到底哪一些歸你們教育部？未來哪一些歸運動部？而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙，我們大人看起來叫做縫隙，在資源不足、社區環境不足的小孩面前，那叫地獄，我必須要用這麼嚴正的話，因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過10年。我要再講一次，我們這些有資源站在臺北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙，對於每天在社區、在原生家庭裡面，對被教練逼著走、逼著奪牌的那些小孩來說，那個縫隙叫地獄。部長，我只是要告訴您，在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題，才會導致於這樣的狀況，現在我們手上拿到運動部的規劃是長這樣，競技運動司，第八項「學校體育班制度與學校專任運動教練政策之規劃、法規研修及督導」，它被放在競技運動司，有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段？這些小孩繼續被當工具人、繼續犧牲，然後在這個過程當中，他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了，因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益。我再說一次，從小在那個環境、威權體制下長大的選手，他什麼時候開了視野、什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界，他才知道原來他被犧牲了，就如陳傑憲說他是到日本去念書，他才知道；簡奇陞說他到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候，在跟外國同學聊天，才發現抽血是不對的。而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的，您說是縫隙，我說是地獄，在這當中被犧牲。第六點「全國運動會、學生綜合型運動賽事與學生運動聯賽之規劃、執行及輔導」，這些聯賽都跟體育班有關、都跟選手有關。第二項「各級優秀競技運動教練與選手之選拔、四級培育之規劃、執行輔導及考核。」通通都在競技運動司。部長，你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心、害怕、焦慮了嗎？它一旦一直被框在競技運動司底下，我們就不可能走出奪牌思維、工具人思維，這是很現實的，因為業務分工一下去，它就是長成像這樣，對不對？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想跟委員報告，運動部的成立事實上就是希望全民健康，運動成為一種生活的態度，然後確保國人的健康。我們看到運動部，其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會，就是我們看到史丹佛大學在去年的奧運，史丹佛大學這個名校的學生拿了三十幾塊金、銀、銅牌，這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數菁英運動人才培育，我們希望把pool做大，讓全民都運動，全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡面，不管是官員或者民意代表，有很多人的運動也非常好，但是他們沒有選擇往運動那一個方向，我們總是希望大家是健康的，但是未來能夠為國家爭取榮耀的，已經不是那一個體育班而已，可能是有更多的人。我想委員剛才所非常熱心關切的，我們一定會深切的檢討，看怎麼樣在未來體育署改為運動部的時候，能夠真正的照我們的理想逐步來實現。"],["主席：謝謝部長，未及答復的部分，麻煩就書面答復，陳培瑜委員還有沒有……"],["陳委員培瑜：有，拜託再給我一下下，拜託，一下下。"],["主席：是不是時間麻煩注意一下？還有其他委員，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我掌握。最後我要講的是，未來運動部的新任部長要不要為現在所有政策跟這些會議最後的結論背書？我其實非常的擔心，所以我要拜託部長，在運動部跟教育部的銜接工作，拜託、拜託，要走得更寬廣。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，這是我們應該做的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我還有時間嗎？最後一題好了，有關性侵那一題。葉委員，拜託！"],["主席：我們請委員將問題簡要提出，然後請部會書面答詢，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我的問題會簡要提出。在臺中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後，我們要求教育部要處理不適任人員清查制度的破口，我們要求你們去做這個事情，結果回復出來的，一次、一次回復，目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任，可是如果沒有去查，這些人都還在教育現場，但非常可怕的是，目前還有臺中市、新竹縣、新竹市、南投縣、雲林縣沒有回復，這個很可怕，我剛剛已經先說了，有查才被發現，更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情。7月15日我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會，這件事情可以怎麼做，很開心教育部給了我們非常積極的回復，可以做系統跟後臺查詢的改良，這個事情我們會繼續追查，我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良。第二個，定期公告教育部所屬跟各縣市高中以下學校不適任人員查詢的狀況。還有，部長，我剛剛跟你說的，遲遲不回的臺中市、新竹縣、新竹市、南投縣、雲林縣，請你們繼續追蹤，這些資料可以再跟我們辦公室索取好嗎？好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請高金素梅委員質詢。高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163429","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163429","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b982b1dd00ef9d0af8789cec5dbd9ef0650d6523476f074030d83dd2eb1f7004fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:33:00 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部長我打斷您因為我們已經算過了啦他請假第一輪可以是這個不是請假就是這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一加一啦所以可能四個月之後如果有申訴假設有申訴的話又再二加一加一啦所以一共可能有八個月啊那我們張耀次長萬一真的高升去當部長了那接下來我們很可能會有人事的異動我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備嘛"},{"start":315.501,"end":328.888,"text":"我們當然會對人事可能的一個異動我們當然會有一些內部的一些討論好 所以我想不要讓這個單一的次長的工作太繁重可能也會讓底下的部署感到困擾那我們想接下來還是要來請教一個比較專業的議題"},{"start":331.869,"end":346.617,"text":"就是這個AI課程的聯盟TICA那113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所對此本席要予以肯定但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊就是說現在開放5300個名額實際修課的人合計2465人修課但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人各課程介於190人到368人之間事實上只有4到6成"},{"start":360.685,"end":364.437,"text":"請問部長 教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因"},{"start":365.506,"end":391.157,"text":"我想這個首先就這個來講我要非常感謝我們葉次長當時在AI內閣裡面他快速的整合清大台大成大為主的這些大學的這個AI的教授很快速的透過網路上的我想謝謝部長這個我們都知道我是要問您啊現在已經有問題發生了我也很感謝葉次長在這個企劃上跟委員報告人員不能讓我多說一點"},{"start":395.319,"end":398.363,"text":"說一些新聞上沒有講過您沒有講過的我說新聞上沒講過的簡單來講我們當時這一個五門課快速的在去年九月開了五門課有將近兩千五百人休課那當然第一"},{"start":411.101,"end":435.333,"text":"第一學期的時候許多的課在網路上包括學生的休課等等的確實有一些學生並沒有通過通過率才只有1322位大概就56到57%不好意思部長我真的要打斷您您在浪費我的時間啊我現在要講的是第二學期的事你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期第二學期的"},{"start":436.073,"end":463.482,"text":"所謂的既有的25所學校裡面高達48%將近一半選客人數呈現衰退你們到底有沒有掌握更委員報告甚至我要繼續講我甚至要講台師大為例六門課程裡面有五門的修課人數是零然後最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的兩間學校全部是零人你現在在跟我講什麼第一學期沒有"},{"start":464.262,"end":483.413,"text":"我要問的是學生為什麼越來越選越少我們在進步中第二學期開始我們就收了有四千幾乎快double的學生休克四千四百位然後通過有三千三百位現在我數字都整理給你了"},{"start":484.173,"end":495.997,"text":"就開始在下降開始在下降有沒有去了解原因是不是太難還是什麼原因為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的"},{"start":499.878,"end":505.739,"text":"但是也有可能的原因像台師大的AI的老師他們也慢慢在豐富所以他們可能就自己開課我們本來這個網路上希望能夠用整合這個大學好的一個資源能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師那如果學校已經有的他當然學生就近實體的上課方便所以部長我想我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫"},{"start":528.965,"end":556.586,"text":"那現在持續的擴增他現在請假我們也先理解他但是呢現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰休克人數在下降既有的25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的台師大是零人完課您知道嗎那您的理由是說台師大已經有自己的AI課程了那我們要抬卡做什麼呢是不是開始造成學校額外的重複行政的困擾他是不是有補助有沒有補助補助完了零人休克這樣可以嗎"},{"start":559.793,"end":573.076,"text":"我們就希望台城新郊的能量老師的能量能夠與陸新山全國的所有的大學生研究生他們能夠也能夠受惠新學期8月要展開啦那也希望部長趕快不管您是優雅從容還是怎麼樣努力到最後我們還是希望台卡的課程要持續優化好不好"},{"start":582.958,"end":597.995,"text":"那接下來啦我想我們還是要來關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的這個台師大女卒抽血案的事件那來請教部長和國客會的書副主委和衛福部的劉師長請代理主席讓書副主委跟劉師長就備巡台"},{"start":599.495,"end":625.853,"text":"請相關部會首長那我借用一點時間那首先呢剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候有提到抽查的狀況結果我們教育部其實並沒有仔細的講啊我們這裡取得的這個教育部的IRB的這個所謂的查核的狀況我們這個案子啊其實是3到7年的時間111年就有抽查到國立台灣師範大學"},{"start":628.135,"end":638.005,"text":"當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何"},{"start":639.386,"end":667.123,"text":"為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說實地抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛"},{"start":667.563,"end":687.807,"text":"那而且這個抽查學校變成不定期查核學校那接下來有沒有這個查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整我想這個可能要檢討那另外請教一下兩位教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點請教一下副主委跟部長知曉的時間點是什麼這個案子這個案子我們是去年113年11月28"},{"start":695.385,"end":712.667,"text":"我想部長這邊我想11月28號陳培於委員揭發此事報導得知那我念一下這個媒體學生的這個刊出的這個說法啦我想這個細節我真的看了非常難過我就不多念了"},{"start":713.388,"end":722.38,"text":"但我想在這樣的一個文字內容下我們完全都可以理解那它還有這個抽血暈眩的狀況我自己抽血也是會暈眩我非常理解這個非常恐怖也非常可怕那個無助的一個狀態而且甚至是可能會產生危險"},{"start":731.852,"end":748.273,"text":"請問在這種情況下所謂的研究受試者同時也是私生關係的學生他能夠向誰來求助他到底能用什麼樣的救濟管道來救濟我想請教部長啊他這個受到這樣的一個困難他想要尋求救濟他可以找誰"},{"start":749.494,"end":758.557,"text":"我想這個完全是在這個抽血的過程裡邊我們的醫護人員的一個訓練必須要再加強部長 我講的是結構性的醫護人員可能是外部請來的我可以直接告訴您答案啦我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道教育部給我們的答覆是說這個學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人"},{"start":776.226,"end":801.097,"text":"您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎我想就學生可以當下就這個表達堅定的立場他是不是改天再抽或者等他舒服的等於說延一段時間再抽在當天來講因為以他當時在抽的時候他事實上人是非常不舒服的這個情況下我想他是可以在整個研究計畫裡邊部長我想您可能還是沒有了解到整件事情的嚴重性"},{"start":802.217,"end":815.465,"text":"這些學生到底是不是真的知情同意是不是有可能在校園裡面權利關係不對等的情況之下不是說我今天不想抽可不可以明天抽就沒事了"},{"start":816.892,"end":838.505,"text":"他有可能一直都不想抽啊所以我想要問的我想要講的就是計劃主持人絕對可能不是一個合適的救助管道所以本席認為啊此案之所以今年累月的累積到最後要求助我們的立法委員來處理就是沒有一個隱密的獨立的通暢的救濟管道"},{"start":839.065,"end":860.166,"text":"沒有一個單一的申訴窗口所以本席在這裡要具體要求教育部必須要針對主管的IRB審查的人體研究計畫設立永久的單一申訴窗口同時啊這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部的網站也必須載明在知情同意書上請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事"},{"start":862.088,"end":875.986,"text":"我想這一個我們當然教育部責務龐大但是我更希望學校也能夠建立一個內積內控包括學生在反應的一個單一窗口因為譬如說類似研發處他就可以做譬如說這個學生本來他就可以決定他退出研究的一個地方"},{"start":881.152,"end":891.777,"text":"是研究計畫主持人他是利益關係人學校本身是不是利益關係人有沒有可能所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關我們一定會感謝委員的建議我們會來設好很好那就當場允諾學校也應該要建立大家一起努力我們都同意教育部"},{"start":905.143,"end":910.745,"text":"我們希望把這個更健全的一個體制建立謝謝部長我們今天時間有限還有幾個點我還是希望來提出首先我們在做這個相關的審查的時候我們在審查這個內容IRB的內容的時候我們的這個IRB的審查"},{"start":929.864,"end":950.257,"text":"我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查了以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了"},{"start":950.717,"end":968.997,"text":"那還好但是如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫他很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行但是也有可能不會所以我想請教也希望呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長在這裡本席希望具體要求能不能共同研議"},{"start":969.838,"end":984.68,"text":"未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查剛剛有提到抽血次數的問題也可能是因為兩個分案"},{"start":985.601,"end":996.91,"text":"送到不同的地方審查學校這裡覺得這裡只抽一次醫院這裡也覺得這裡只抽一次可是事實上在同一批人一天可能就變成抽兩次他如果沒有共同審查的話很可能會重放了其實應該要嚴格審查的專案這個部分能不能就此進行研議三個月內因為有跨部會啦"},{"start":1007.478,"end":1026.773,"text":"以書面答覆本席謝謝委員提醒事實上我們教育部國科會跟衛務部也已經就這一個部分在做內部的這些溝通我們也希望能夠建立一個更精進的一個這樣一個審查的一個機制確保能夠維護這一個學生或者所有的受試者的一個權益我想這一次的事件"},{"start":1027.83,"end":1044.463,"text":"其實是我們每一個人都要一起來努力去捍衛學生的權益當然我們也理解整個事件還有一些部分在進行調查當中但是我想我們的人權啊我們的學生的學習的權益啊真的非常的重要當他在校園裡面可能因為弱勢"},{"start":1047.205,"end":1062.795,"text":"他的意見不受重視甚至可能有利益關係利害關係導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來這個真的是我們每一位在這裡的人我們都應該要一起來關注我們希望這個事件能夠有非常好的檢討來改進謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝市長謝謝部長 請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時33分）謝謝代理主席。有請教育部鄭英耀部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長早。上週我們在議程安排的時候就有聽到風聲說，今天可能是部長的重要考試，萬一考不過，有沒有可能就被卓內閣放進二一名單？想請教一下部長，這個說法是不是屬實？我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您？想不想再繼續跟我們一起協作？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心我的去留。不過，我想假設性的問題，基本上我不方便回答。但是就政務官來講，我個人認為，政務官的進退要優雅、要雍容，這是我一路走來的堅持，我也不曉得委員會不會希望我留下來。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想如果不只是優雅從容，還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話，當然是希望您留下來。"],["鄭部長英耀：這是無庸置疑。"],["葛委員如鈞：也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題，也不要把時間花在只是勾選哪一間學校要停止交流，如果是這樣的話，我們當然希望您留下來！但是我想，不管你是不是留下來，優雅從容之餘，也應該努力到最後一天，來捍衛學生的權益，也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要加強的。"],["鄭部長英耀：這當然是肯定的。"],["葛委員如鈞：首先要請教一下部長，有關無限期休假的事件，除了您本身的去留，其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的事，就是葉丙成次長迄今請假天數已經達到72天，社群平台還有網友做一個計時器在計算他請假的天數。原本教育部有3位次長，分工非常地明確，但是我們稍微計算一下在葉次長請假期間，當中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次長在處理所有的公務，也就是您在這個圖上面看到葉次長請假，朱次長還沒到位之前，有32天的時間只有一位次長處理所有的事，部長，您知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我當然知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以請問部長，32天算很長啦！您認為長期少一個次長的情況下，會不會影響到相關政策的推行？"],["鄭部長英耀：我非常感謝教育部的團隊，當然在人事異動，還有接任的時間會有一些時間差，這個期間教育部的……"],["葛委員如鈞：會不會影響？有沒有影響？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上我們都希望所有政務跟政策都能夠順暢的推動。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以過去的這32天，對於事務上有沒有影響？會不會影響？我還是要肯定張廖次長一個人扛起來32天，當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由，32天有沒有影響到政策的推行？會不會影響？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上我們保持對可能的影響降到最低。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，部長，如果您希望次長趕快銷假上班，您就要明確地表達；如果您覺得影響可以降到最低，我們是不是一位常次就好啦？可以減少納稅人的錢、不必要的支出，否則我想這樣分工的狀態，現在兩位次長，那我又要替朱次長抱不平啦！萬一之後我們的運動部成立了，次長說不定有一些人事的異動調整，會不會又出現一位次長要扛下所有的任務？接下來的這些狀況，想請教部長，未來有可能面臨的這個情況，你有沒有預先規劃？之前可能是意外，之後有沒有預先規劃？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，因為葉次長被指控洩漏、違反性平的個資，我們當然希望性平專案調查小組趕快把結果調查出來，但是因為性平小組認為必須還有很多要的求證，才會延長時間……"],["葛委員如鈞：是，部長，我打斷你，因為我們已經算過了，就這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一、加一，所以可能四個月，之後假設有申訴的話，又再二加一、加一，所以一共可能有8個月。萬一張廖次長真的高升去當部長了，接下來很可能會有人事異動，我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備？"],["鄭部長英耀：對人事可能的異動，我們當然會有一些內部的討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想不要讓單一的次長工作太繁重，可能也會讓底下的部屬感到困擾。接下來還是要請教一個比較專業的議題，就是AI學程聯盟（TAICA）113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所，對此本席要予以肯定。但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊，就是現在開放5,300個名額，實際修課的人合計2,465人，但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人，各課程介於190人到368人之間，事實上只有四到六成。請問部長，教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因？"],["鄭部長英耀：首先就這一個來講，我要非常感謝我們葉次長，當時在AI內閣裡面，他快速地整合清大、臺大、成大為主的AI教授，很快速地透過網路上的……我想一年後……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，這個我們都知道，我是要問您現在已經有問題發生，我也很感謝葉次長在這個計畫上……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，能不能讓我多說一點？"],["葛委員如鈞：說一些新聞上沒有講過、您沒有講過的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我說新聞上沒講過的，簡單來講，我們當時快速地在去年9月開了五門課，有將近2,500人修課，當然，第一學期許多課在網路上，包括學生的修課等等，確實有一些學生並沒有通過，通過率只有1,322位大概等於56%到57%……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，部長，我真的要打斷您，您在浪費我的時間。我現在要講的是第二學期的事，你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期……"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，我只是……"],["葛委員如鈞：第二學期既有的25所學校裡面，高達48%將近一半選課人數呈現衰退，你們到底有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長英耀：已經提升，跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：甚至我要繼續講，以臺師大為例，六門課程裡面有五門修課人數是零，最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的，兩間學校全部是零人，你現在跟我講什麼第一學期！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，跟委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：我要問的是學生為什麼越選越少？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在進步中……"],["葛委員如鈞：為什麼退選的人越來越多，你跟我說葉丙成老師好棒。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在進步中，第二學期開始我們就收4,400位幾乎快double的學生修課，通過有3,300位。"],["葛委員如鈞：我現在數字都整理給你了，就開始在下降，有沒有去了解原因？"],["鄭部長英耀：本來這門課就希望說……"],["葛委員如鈞：是不是太難，還是什麼原因？為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然我不排斥有部分的學校可能太難，但是也有可能的原因，像臺師大的AI老師也慢慢在豐富，所以他們可能就自己開課。本來我們希望透過網路整合大學好的資源，能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師，如果學校已經有的，當然學生就近實體上課比較方便……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以部長，我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫，現在持續地擴增，他現在請假，我們也先理解他，但是現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰，修課人數在下降，既有25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的，臺師大是零人完課，您知道嗎？您的理由是說臺師大已經有自己的AI課程，那我們要TAICA做什麼呢？是不是開始造成學校額外重複的行政困擾？它有沒有補助？補助完了，零人修課，這樣可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們就希望臺、成、清、交老師的能量能夠雨露均霑，讓全國所有的大學生也能夠受惠。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想新學期8月1號展開，也希望部長趕快，不管您是優雅、從容，還是怎麼樣，努力到最後，我們還是希望TAICA課程要持續優化，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來，我們還是要關注一下令人震驚跟心痛的臺師大女足抽血案事件，請教部長、國科會蘇副主委和衛福部劉司長，請代理主席讓蘇副主委跟劉司長就備詢臺。"],["主席：請相關部會首長就備詢臺。"],["葛委員如鈞：我借用一點時間，首先，剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候，有提到抽查的狀況，結果教育部其實並沒有仔細的講。我們這裡取得教育部IRB所謂的查核狀況，這個案子其實是3到7年的時間，111年就有抽查到國立臺灣師範大學，當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣？如果當時有用心抽查，我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題，請教111年抽查的情況如何？為什麼會讓這個案子還留下來？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體學校IRB運作機制跟相關執行的狀況，針對個案異常的狀況，有些時候真的必須要實地抽查才會……"],["葛委員如鈞：我幫你整理啦！就是有抽查，但這個案子沒有抽查到，我想這還是要檢討一下，這個抽查變成逐具形式，而且抽查學校變成不定期查核學校，接下來查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整？我想這個可能要檢討。另外也請教兩位，教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點，請教副主委跟部長，這個案子知曉的時間點是何時？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：這個案子我們是113年11月28日。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我想11月28號陳培瑜委員揭發此事，報導得知，我唸一下媒體刊出學生的說法，細節我真的看得非常難過，就不多唸了。在這樣的文字內容下，我們都完全可以理解，他還有抽血暈眩的狀況，我自己抽血也是會暈眩，我非常理解這樣一個無助的狀態，非常恐怖，也非常可怕，甚至可能會產生危險。請問在這種情況下，所謂的研究受試者，同時也是師生關係的學生，他能夠向誰求助，到底能用什麼管道來救濟？我想請教部長，遇到這樣的困難想要尋求救濟，他可以找誰？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在抽血的過程裡面，醫護人員的訓練必須要再加強，也就是說學生……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我講的是結構性的，醫護人員可能是外部請來的，我可以直接告訴您答案啦，我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道？教育部給的答復是學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人，您覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想學生當下可以表達堅定的立場，是不是改天再抽，或者等他舒服的時候，等於延一段時間再抽？因為以他當時在抽的時候，事實上人是非常不舒服的，這個情況下，他是可以在整個研究計畫裡面……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我想您可能還是沒有了解整件事情的嚴重性，這些學生到底是不是真的知情、同意？是不是有可能在校園裡面權力關係不對等的情況之下？不是說今天不想抽，可不可以明天抽就沒事了，他有可能一直都不想抽啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：就IRB在研議這個倫理……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想要講的就是，計畫主持人絕對有可能不是一個合適的救助管道，本席認為此案之所以經年累月地累積，到最後要求助我們立法委員來處理，就是沒有一個隱密、獨立、通暢的救濟管道，沒有單一的申訴窗口。所以本席在這裡具體要求，教育部必須要針對主管IRB審查的人體研究計畫，設立永久的單一申訴窗口，同時這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部網站，也必須載明在知情同意書上，請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這一個我們教育部當然責無旁貸，但我更希望學校也能夠建立內稽內控，包括學生反應的一個單一窗口，譬如類似研發處就可以做……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，部長，我還是要讓您知道……"],["鄭部長英耀：譬如說這個學生本來就可以決定退出這些研究計畫……"],["葛委員如鈞：這些專案往上是研究計畫主持人，他是利益關係人，學校本身是不是利益關係人？有沒有可能……"],["鄭部長英耀：學校整個就校長來講，他……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關……"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部沒有問題，我們一定會……感謝委員的建議，我們會來設。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，那就當場允諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：但我們更希望學校也應該要建立……"],["葛委員如鈞：大家一起努力，我們都同意。"],["鄭部長英耀：對，從學校到教育部，我們希望建立更健全的體制，更能保護學生所有的受教權。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長，今天時間有限，我還有幾點希望提出。首先，在做相關審查的時候，審查IRB的內容，我們發現其實簡易型審查是主要的，而且我們檢查以後發現組成IRB的人，樣態五花八門，IRB的組成成員有法師、有里長、有常見的行政人員，如果普通的簡易案件直接就通過了，那還好，但如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫，很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行，但是也有可能不會。所以本席希望具體要求，也呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長，能不能共同研議未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫，應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查？","剛剛提到抽血次數的問題，也可能是因為兩個分案送到不同的地方審查，學校覺得這裡只抽1次，醫院也覺得這裡只抽1次，可是事實上同一批人一天可能就變成抽2次，如果沒有共同審查的話，很可能會縱放其實應該要嚴格審查的專案。能不能就此部分進行研議，因為有跨部會，3個月內以書面答復本席？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，事實上我們教育部、國科會跟衛福部也已經就這部分在做內部溝通，也希望能夠建立更精進的審查機制，確保能夠維護學生或者所有受試者的權益。"],["葛委員如鈞：這次的事件其實是每個人都要一起來努力，去捍衛學生的權益，當然我們也理解整個事件還有部分在調查中，但是我想我們的人權、學生的學習權益真的非常重要。當他們在校園裡面可能因為弱勢，意見不受重視，甚至可能有利益關係、利害關係，導致他們的聲音沒有辦法傳出來，這是我們在這裡的每一位都應該要一起來關注，希望這個事件能夠非常好地檢討改進。謝謝部長、謝謝司長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長，請回座。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：接下來有請劉書彬委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b9890499e4406ae510789cec5dbd9ef0650d6523476f07403042d906fa9f5dffe95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:42:59 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運動部9月9號要掛牌當初我們在實驗組織法的之後"},{"start":30.519,"end":58.719,"text":"運動部組織法第二條本部長理下列事項其中有一個是運動文化之一的收集保存在線展示及推廣這個是運動部在組織法裡面的法定職場事項今天拜讀的教育部所送來的關於運動部成立籌備的情況以及後續的推畫裡面有一部一屬三中心部裡面有六個師請問有關於運動文化之一的收集保存在線展示及推廣是哪一個部門的選擇"},{"start":60.581,"end":80.897,"text":"保護委員未來應該會是在產業與科技室在哪裡產業及科技室產業及科技室來把你們今天的書面報告拿出來看到第二頁產業及科技室你們今天在產業及科技室裡面執掌的事項半個字都沒有提啊"},{"start":87.418,"end":114.616,"text":"這部分我們目前的確在規劃上面我們先短中長期那已經有一個出版出來我們可以提供給委辦那短期部分我們現在在做文物整個的盤點那中期的部分就是要去做一個像一些像我們現在台史博我這樣說好了啦當初喔在審運動部組織法的時候針對於有關國家體育博物館的部分你們有一些想法"},{"start":115.902,"end":142.19,"text":"然後說先不要成立啦未來以後我們會再研議嘛我們就持續的等嘛今天從你們今天交給教委委員會的書面報告當中就整個組織架構裡面我完全看不到到底是這個部裡面的哪一個署哪一個中心甚至是哪一個司要主責這樣子的事項我今天這件事情提出來正式的質詢只是希望記得"},{"start":143.89,"end":164.805,"text":"當初運動部組織法的時候在審議的過程當中因為你們委員做了一些讓步委員做讓步並不代表這些事情不用做當初承諾的事項要記在心裡面當初承諾的事項要記在心裡面要好好的去做我不希望以後再看到的狀況是今天針對運動部"},{"start":168.007,"end":185.567,"text":"我們成立了以後接下來各司的職長上面竟然在運動部組織法裡面有法定職長事項結果在這份書面報告裡面一個字啊都沒有提因為到時候如果要就責的話到底誰要負啊這個責任啊必須要清楚可以嗎好來"},{"start":188.786,"end":209.875,"text":"不要講空的啦現在誰要當部長還不是很清楚啦我只是現在藉由這個質詢的機會提醒你們啦不要講空的啦當初我們在審運動部組織法的時候有一些委員說要設國家級的運動技藝博物館事實上我從很多球員那邊所得到的澄清我是贊成的"},{"start":210.717,"end":235.205,"text":"我是贊成的但是當初因為你們反對嘛你們希望給你們一些空間嘛你們會好好的去做嘛所以我們就一直等嘛今天提這樣的質詢我再強調一次善意的提醒答應的事就要做到到時候沒有做到就要有人負責包括有關於法國他們一樣有國家體育博物館"},{"start":238.134,"end":261.579,"text":"很多學者也站出來講運動部缺的不是預算缺乏的是保存機制跟推動計畫你們現在這幾年基本上全部都是在搞什麼數位典藏然後每年大概編了從運發基金大概每年編兩千萬下去做這樣子的事情希望運動部正式成立以後這件事情要認真把它當做一件事來做可以嗎"},{"start":262.566,"end":277.38,"text":"幫委員會的會喔 好來 接下來請教育部部長跟國歌會副主委我之前啊 我非常重視的一件事啊我們的高中生學習歷程"},{"start":279.819,"end":308.674,"text":"裡面內容虛偽不實結果被學校撤銷入局資格一個學生在學習的過程當中當然不可以造假基本正確的觀念從學生時代就要建立但是是不是要下這麼重的手社會上面有很多不同的聲音我相信部長也聽到了但這不是我今天要講的重點我今天要講的重點是我不知道我們國家的教育怎麼了"},{"start":309.693,"end":329.896,"text":"我也不知道我們國家的學術圈到底怎麼了我自己是從學界出來的在中央研究院裡面我們針對有關於學術的倫理也好學術的基本的要求也好事情應該是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣向來都是很清楚"},{"start":331.092,"end":357.2,"text":"但是我發現這個政府讓我們不知道怎麼教育我們的下一代一個高中生學習歷程不實被五個學校撤銷錄取資格結果一個大教授自己的學歷造假自己的學歷造假現在出任英國公使現在出任英國公使這在學界已經成為最諷刺"},{"start":361.107,"end":385.781,"text":"但絕對不好笑的笑話最諷刺但絕對不好笑的笑話當初這件事情有人檢舉的時候從教育部到科技部一路護航一路護航我之前有帶你們看過了2011年這件事情開始的時候還把它變更審議處理的原則"},{"start":388.036,"end":406.252,"text":"說不包括身份資料物證或其他類似的顯然錯誤我已經看不懂了你有沒有去念過法學院自己不知道沒有念過法學院寫畢業的我拿到的是法學院的博士學位這個叫顯然錯誤喔這個叫顯然造假這個叫顯然造假這叫顯然造假"},{"start":411.909,"end":419.514,"text":"我再說三次我在國會也這樣講我面對學界的朋友也這樣子講過去這段時間我們這個國家我們這個政府我們這些大人們怎麼樣對在學習當中的高中生砍到見骨砍到見骨但是呢"},{"start":437.877,"end":458.653,"text":"對於抱對大腿抱對民進黨大腿公然造假的學者卻是呵護被制啊呵護被制啊當他變更標準甚至出現了什麼狀況來繼續往下看當初科技部他的學文事件"},{"start":459.844,"end":473.627,"text":"法律專業學門一自覺要停權到你們學倫大會上面翻盤主導的就是民進黨的御用律師陳鵬光也是台堂的董事接了台電的這樣的標案拿了這麼多的標案"},{"start":485.185,"end":500.237,"text":"然後台電的董事 也就是江雅琪的學輪案件她參與審議我上一次在這邊問這件事情的時候國歌會說整個情況不是很瞭解要回去做瞭解"},{"start":501.72,"end":529.692,"text":"這種事情不應該發生顯然意見的 顯然意見的根本應該要迴避 結果沒有迴避這還不是我說的這還不是我說的當初你們都跟我承諾要徹查結果呢 我請你們徹查 徹查回來教育部回給我的公文國科會回給我的公文 全部公文編密件保密20年全部編密件 保密20年我現在問題來了"},{"start":531.209,"end":552.751,"text":"我如果把你們回給我編為密件的公文我曾經作為中研院的研究員來自於學界我看了快要吐血的公文我把它公開我會不會違反洩密罪部長我會違反洩密罪嗎國科會的副主委我會違反洩密罪嗎"},{"start":554.707,"end":575.737,"text":"保密20年 這為什麼要保密20年不敢讓社會公平不敢讓社會大眾知道不敢讓大家知道這個民進黨政府關關相護誇張到什麼程度連最基本的學術倫理要求直接叮爆垃圾桶啊台灣學術之恥啊台灣學術之恥啊政治人物啊 你如果要關關相護社會觀感不佳"},{"start":584.803,"end":609.039,"text":"這種腐敗的風氣 蔓延到學界啊這就是學術倫理標準的崩壞 徹底的崩壞以後我們要怎麼樣告訴我們的學生啊最高學歷啊 欽猜瞎瞎的沒關係啦教育部不會管啊 國科會也不會管啊自己從什麼學院拿到博士學位的忘記了也沒有關係啊 即使記得"},{"start":610.732,"end":623.119,"text":"閉上眼睛瞎寫也沒有關係啊因為民進黨政府所主導的教育部跟國科會已經向全台灣的學術界宣告這都沒關係啦是這樣嗎來 請教部長"},{"start":630.677,"end":654.939,"text":"跟委員報告 他之所以會列為密件是因為我們提供給委員的資料有涉及到一些什麼東西這一個他的一個教授的一些沒有啊 我跟部長報告我看完了 我看不到任何國家機密我看不到任何個人隱私我唯一看到的只有什麼叫做官官相護啊"},{"start":658.13,"end":674.024,"text":"跟委員報告,當事人這一個我們在110年的時候接到了科技部的一個調查請問我們查詢他的教師資格審查的時候他的這個案子確實有經過我們的相關的會議在討論說他登載的這樣的一個學位論文的疑義的案子我們確實有進行討論跟審議討論出來就沒有關係嘛,對不對?"},{"start":685.194,"end":712.367,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告 他當時在深等教授在北科大深等教授的時候因為審查意見就有指出來這樣的一個疑義所以他當時深等教授的資格是沒有通過的那後來經過我們開 就是說110年4月27號開完會之後審議這樣的情形也提醒當事人以後要確實登載這樣子的一個為什麼要提醒當事人以後要登載正確"},{"start":713.647,"end":741.878,"text":"我現在登載不如正確又怎麼樣我現在登載不正確你們教育部說沒有關係啊國科會也說沒有關係啊大家都說沒有關係啊委員他在審查教師資格的時候有反映在他的教授身上對沒有錯你講得很好啊反映出來的結果就是我們的教育部加上國科會告訴整個台灣社會這根本不重要沒有關係"},{"start":743.513,"end":768.204,"text":"不是嗎報告委員他在北科大升等教授的時候是沒有通過的是因為確實裡頭意見有這樣子的一個呈現那後來他的教師資格的履歷表經過就是說我們現在掌握到的他後來有如實的登載所以在海洋所以是知過能改就好了嘛對不對報告委員因為他已經確實反映在他的教師資格審定的部分來 請國科會你們給我的密件說"},{"start":773.391,"end":795.91,"text":"那個大會民進黨的那個御用律師去幫他主導法律學門、專業學門說違反學術倫理去學倫大會一手幫他主導方案的這個沒有違反利益迴避相關的規範那就很奇怪賴清德提名的大法官這是賴清德提名的"},{"start":796.943,"end":818.717,"text":"不是別人提名的賴清德提名的大法官詹正榮在同意權行使的審查會上就擺明的很清楚第一個他們當初根本不知道這件事當初根本不知道這件事代表什麼意思代表的是連自我揭露都沒做到連基本的自我揭露都沒有做到進一步請教他他說這當然應該要迴避"},{"start":820.957,"end":847.905,"text":"這當然應該要迴避啊但是你們國科會很厲害你們回給我的密件當中說這個不用迴避沒有關係啊所以現在這個是國科會告訴全台灣所有的學者這是OK的嗎?這是國科會的標準嗎?報告委員這個案子我們依照程序進行學乳檢定會的是是是是你們非常會搞程序啦這個體制啊被你們玩得如火純青啊"},{"start":850.046,"end":871.767,"text":"你們很會玩體制很會玩程序啊程序考完最後產出的結果叫做謝謝指教茶無不法這就是我痛心的地方啊為了一個人台灣的學術界基本的倫理要求全部丟到垃圾桶裡面去"},{"start":874.057,"end":899.923,"text":"賴清德政府要包庇這樣的一個人送到英國當公使我老實說啦丟的是全台灣的臉賴清德拉不下這個臉面硬要派他去當駐英國的公使丟的是全台灣人的臉但是我本來期待學術人還有一點最起碼的學術良心教授還有最起碼的一點學者的良知"},{"start":901.366,"end":924.953,"text":"結果搞到今天啦 教育部也好 國科會也好報告委員 我們有跑程序程序出來一切合法 謝謝指教具體的內容列為密件 保密20年委員你不要公開 你一公開可能就觸犯了中華民國刑法洩漏國防以外的機密罪我們的政府是在玩這種遊戲"},{"start":931.766,"end":960.277,"text":"我們的政府是在玩這種遊戲我已經不期待現在的教育部我也不期待現在的國科會能夠進一步去做什麼自我糾正的事情我只要留下歷史的記錄在中華民國的學術史上留下歷史的記錄在中華民國的教育史上留下歷史的記錄未來的學子就拿姜雅琪當作例子嘛有什麼關係"},{"start":962.571,"end":986.793,"text":"我沒有拿到學院的法學博士又如何我照寫 前例在前面了這沒關係啦我找我自己擔任董事公司 收我公司錢的律師來參與我的學倫大會幫我方案 也沒有關係因為我們的國科會已經宣布標準了這種情況完全不需要迴避"},{"start":988.897,"end":998.883,"text":"連一開始在審查的過程當中連自我揭露都沒有做到也沒有關係我第一次質詢的時候我已經質疑了"},{"start":1000.721,"end":1020.256,"text":"學倫的這種事情高度的學術專業倫理找一個律師來當學倫大會的評選委員我對你們當初的科技部是怎麼挑選的我已經下巴都快要掉下來我已經下巴都快要掉下來而且還是去找了一個收錢的律師這是什麼標準"},{"start":1021.892,"end":1032.96,"text":"然後呢自我沒有揭露呼嚕呼嚕出了這種整個學術界大家沒辦法接受的結論到今天繼續關關相護丟臉丟臉非常的丟臉非常非常的丟臉"},{"start":1045.39,"end":1052.233,"text":"今天在中華民國的教育史上在中華民國的學術史上寫下這恥辱的一頁歷史會記得謝謝黃國昌委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1062,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時42分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長、國科會副主委。"],["主席：有請部長、副主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。運動部9月9號要掛牌，當初我們在審組織法的時候，運動部組織法第二條「本部掌理下列事項」其中有一個是「運動文化記憶之蒐藏、保存、再現、展示及推廣」，這個是運動部在組織法裡面的法定職掌事項。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：今天拜讀教育部送來關於運動部成立籌備的情況以及後續的規劃，裡面有1部、1署、3中心，部裡面有6個司，請問有關運動文化記憶的蒐藏、保存、再現、展示及推廣是哪一個部門的權責？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，未來應該會是在產業與科技司。"],["黃委員國昌：在哪裡？"],["鄭署長世忠：產業及科技司。"],["黃委員國昌：把你們今天的書面報告拿出來看到第2頁，你們今天在「產業及科技司」裡面寫的職掌事項是半個字都沒有提。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們目前的確在規劃上面……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要規劃多久？"],["鄭署長世忠：短、中、長期已經有一個初版出來，我們可以提供給委員辦公室，短期的部分，我們現在在做整個文物的盤點，中期的部分就是要做像現在臺史博……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，當初在審運動部組織法的時候，針對有關國家體育博物館的部分你們有一些想法，然後說先不要成立，未來會再研議，然後……"],["鄭署長世忠：是這個方向沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：我就持續地等，從你們今天交給教文委員會的書面報告當中，就整個組織架構裡面，我完全看不到到底是這個部裡面的哪一個署、哪一個中心，甚至是哪一個司要主責這樣的事項。我把這件事情提出來正式質詢，只是希望記得當初運動部組織法在審議的過程當中，因為你們委員做了一些讓步，委員讓步並不代表這件事情不用做。當初承諾的事項要記在心裡面，要好好地去做，我不希望以後看到的狀況是，今天運動部成立以後，接下來各司在職掌上……運動部組織法裡的法定職掌事項結果在這份書面報告裡面竟然一個字都沒有提，到時候如果要究責的話，到底是誰要負這個責任必須清楚，可以嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們會往這個方向去進行。"],["黃委員國昌：不要講空的啦！現在是誰要當部長還不是很清楚啦！我只是現在藉由這個質詢的機會提醒你們，不要講空的啦！當初我們在審運動部組織法的時候，有一些委員說要設國家級的運動記憶博物館，事實上我從很多球員那邊所得到的陳情，我是贊成的。但是當初因為你們反對，你們希望給你們一些空間，你們會好好地去做，所以我們就一直等。今天提這樣的質詢，我再強調一次，這是善意的提醒，答應的事就要做到，到時候沒有做到就要有人負責。包括法國，他們一樣有國家體育博物館，很多學者也站出來講，運動部缺的不是預算，缺乏的是保存機制跟推動計畫，你們現在這幾年全部都是在搞什麼數位典藏，然後每年從運發基金大概編2,000萬下去做這樣子的事情，希望運動部正式成立以後，要把這件事情認真地當成一件事來做，可以嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，會的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，接下來請教育部部長跟國科會副主委。我之前非常重視一件事，我們高中生學習歷程裡面的內容虛偽不實，結果被學校撤銷錄取資格，一個學生在學習的過程當中，當然不可以造假，基本正確的觀念從學生時代就要建立，但是是不是要下這麼重的手，社會上面有很多不同的聲音，相信部長也聽到了，但這不是我今天要講的重點。","我今天要講的重點是，我不知道我們國家的教育怎麼了，我也不知道我們國家的學術圈到底怎麼了，我自己是從學界出來的，在中央研究院裡面，我們針對學術的倫理也好，學術的基本要求也好，事情應該是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣，向來都是很清楚的。但是我發現這個政府讓我們不知道怎麼教育我們的下一代，一個高中生學習歷程不實，被5個學校撤銷錄取資格，結果一個大教授自己的學歷造假，現在出任英國公使，這在學界已經成為最諷刺但絕對不好笑的笑話。","當初這件事情被人檢舉的時候，從教育部到科技部一路護航，我之前有帶你們看過了，2011年這件事情開始的時候還變更審議處理的原則，說是「不包括身分資料誤繕或其他類此之顯然錯誤」。我已經看不懂了，你有沒有去唸過法學院自己不知道？沒有唸過法學院卻寫畢業拿到的是法學院的博士學位，這個叫顯然錯誤噢？這個叫顯然造假！這個叫顯然造假！這個叫顯然造假！我再說3次，我在國會也這樣講，我面對學界的朋友也這樣講。","過去這段時間，我們這個國家、我們這個政府、我們這些大人們怎麼樣對在學習當中的高中生砍到見骨，但是對於抱對民進黨大腿、公然造假的學者卻是呵護備至，呵護備至！幫他變更標準，甚至出現什麼狀況？","繼續往下看。當初科技部對於他的學倫事件（他自稱為法律專業學門博士）一致決要停權，到學倫大會上面卻翻盤，主導的就是民進黨的御用律師陳鵬光，他接了台電這麼多標案，對於台電董事江雅綺的學倫案件，也參與審議。我上一次在這邊問這件事情的時候，國科會說，整個情況不是很了解，要回去做了解，這種事情不應該發生，顯然易見的，根本應該要迴避，結果沒有迴避。這還不是我說的、這還不是我說的。當初你們都跟我承諾要徹查，我請你們徹查，結果徹查回來，教育部回給我的公文、國科會回給我的公文，全部公文編密件，保密20年，全部編密件，保密20年。","我現在問題來了，你們回給我編為密件的公文，我曾經作為中研院的研究員，來自於學界，我看了快要吐血的公文，我如果把它公開，我會不會違反洩密罪？部長，我會違反洩密罪嗎？國科會副主委，我會違反洩密罪嗎？保密20年，這為什麼要保密20年？不敢讓社會公評、不敢讓社會大眾知道、不敢讓大家知道這個民進黨政府官官相護誇張到什麼程度！連最基本的學術倫理要求，都直接丟到垃圾桶，這是臺灣學術之恥、臺灣學術之恥！政治人物如果要官官相護，社會觀感不佳，這種腐敗的風氣蔓延到學界，這就是學術倫理標準的崩壞，徹底的崩壞！以後我們要怎麼樣告訴我們的學生？最高學歷隨便寫寫沒有關係，教育部不會管，國科會也不會管，自己從什麼學院拿到博士學位的，忘記了也沒有關係，即使記得，閉上眼睛瞎寫也沒有關係，因為民進黨政府所主導的教育部及國科會已經向全臺灣的學術界宣告，這都沒有關係，是這樣嗎？請教部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，它之所以會列為密件是因為我們提供給委員的資料有涉及到審查……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼東西？"],["鄭部長英耀：教授評鑑的審查……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我跟部長報告，我看完了，我看不到任何國家機密、我看不到任何個人隱私，我唯一看到的只有什麼叫做官官相護！"],["廖司長高賢：跟委員報告，我們在110年的時候接到了科技部的一個調查，請我們查詢他的教師資格審查，他的這個案子確實有經過我們的相關會議在討論，就他登載的學位有疑義的案子，我們確實有進行討論及審議……"],["黃委員國昌：討論出來就沒有關係，對不對？"],["廖司長高賢：沒有，跟委員報告，他當時在北科大升等教授的時候，因為審查意見就有指出來這樣的疑義，所以他當時升等教授的資格是沒有通過的，後來我們110年4月27日開完會之後，審議這樣的情形，也提醒當事人以後要確實登載學……"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼要提醒當事人以後要登載正確？他現在登載不正確又怎麼樣，他現在登載不正確，教育部說沒有關係，國科會也說沒有關係，大家都說沒有關係啊！"],["廖司長高賢：委員，在審查他教師資格的時候，有反映在他的教授升等……"],["黃委員國昌：對，沒有錯，你講得很好，反映出來的結果就是教育部加上國科會告訴整個臺灣社會，這根本不重要、沒有關係，不是嗎？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，他在北科大升等教授的時候是沒有通過的，是因為確實裡頭的意見有這樣的呈現，後來他的教師資格的履歷表，我們現在掌握到的，他有如實登載，所以在海洋大學……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是知過能改就好了，對不對？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，因為這已經確實反映在他的教師資格審定的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：請國科會。你們給我的密件說民進黨的那個御用律師去學倫大會（說他自稱為法律專業學門博士違反學術倫理事件）一手主導幫他翻案沒有違反利益迴避相關規範。那就很奇怪！賴清德提名的大法官詹鎮榮（這是賴清德提名的，不是別人提名的）在同意權行使的審查會上就表明得很清楚，第一個、他們當初根本不知道這件事。當初根本不知道這件事代表什麼意思？代表的是連自我揭露都沒做到，連基本的自我揭露都沒有做到。進一步請教他，他說這當然應該要迴避。這當然應該要迴避，但是國科會很厲害，你們回給我的密件當中說這個不用迴避，沒有關係。所以現在這個是國科會告訴全臺灣所有的學者這是OK的嗎？這是國科會的標準嗎？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：報告委員，這個案子我們依照程序進行學倫審議會的程序……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，你們非常會搞程序，這個體制被你們玩得爐火純青！你們很會玩體制、很會玩程序，程序跑完，最後產出的結果叫做謝謝指教，查無不法。這就是我痛心的地方！為了一個人，臺灣的學術界把基本的倫理要求全部丟到垃圾桶裡面去！賴清德政府要包庇這樣的一個人，送到英國當公使，我老實說，丟的是全臺灣的臉，賴清德拉不下這個臉面，硬要派他去當駐英國的公使，丟的是全臺灣人的臉！但是我本來期待學術人還有一點最起碼的學術良心，教授還有最起碼的一點學者良知，結果搞到今天，教育部也好，國科會也好，說報告委員，我們有跑程序，程序出來一切合法，謝謝指教，具體的內容列為密件，保密20年，委員，你不要公開，你一公開可能就觸犯了中華民國刑法洩漏國防以外的機密罪。","我們的政府是在玩這種遊戲、我們的政府是在玩這種遊戲，我已經不期待現在的教育部、我也不期待現在的國科會能夠進一步去做什麼自我糾正的事情，我只要留下歷史的紀錄，在中華民國的學術史上留下歷史的紀錄，在中華民國的教育史上留下歷史的紀錄。未來的學子就拿江雅綺當作例子，說有什麼關係，沒有拿到法學院的法學博士又如何？照寫，前例在前面了，這沒有關係，我找收我公司（我自己擔任董事）錢的律師來參與我的學倫大會幫我翻案也沒有關係，因為國科會已經宣布標準了，這種情況完全不需要迴避，連一開始在審查的過程當中，自我揭露都沒有做到也沒有關係。","我第一次質詢的時候已經質疑，學倫的這種事情是高度的學術專業倫理，你們找一個律師來當學倫大會的評選委員，對於當初科技部是怎麼挑選的，我已經下巴都快要掉下來、我已經下巴都快要掉下來！而且還是去找了一個收錢的律師，這是什麼標準？然後自我揭露也沒有，呼嚕呼嚕出了這種整個學術界大家沒辦法接受的結論，到今天繼續官官相護，丟臉、丟臉，非常的丟臉，非常、非常的丟臉！今天在中華民國的教育史上、在中華民國的學術史上寫下這恥辱的一頁，歷史會記得。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員質詢，官員如果有要回復可以書面繼續答復，官員請回座。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另外有高金素梅委員、徐欣瑩委員提出書面質詢。","今天會議所作的決定如下：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b9db35e4ab15de3c35789cec5dbd9ef065f0ed19537023bd203cbf50dea0cea1405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:59:50 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委員的關心我們持續進行在下一週我們會找幾個縣市先行諮詢但是之前跟委員講"},{"start":207.099,"end":234.079,"text":"下一周之前跟委員報告的是有幾個議題它因為受財化法的影響比較深財化法的方向現在還沒有很明確所以我們先用諮詢不要耽誤時間所以確定的時候全縣市召開決策的會議所以現在先啟動諮詢第二點剛剛委員問到項目第一個是收費第二個是人第三個是偏鄉大概是這幾個課題還需要持續當然中間每一項都會涉及到財源的配置謝謝"},{"start":235.1,"end":244.149,"text":"才化法跟裁員的配置這我都可以尊重我們後續滾動是修正嘛但是就像我說的先行做溝通可是3月20到現在你下禮拜才要溝通是嗎"},{"start":246.929,"end":266.035,"text":"中間持續有只有剛剛講的三個議題溝通那因為當時4月14號答應委員之後受財化法的影響蠻深的但是我們也覺得不能再等可是財化法沒有很明確的話在溝通上地方政府也不知道我們要採取什麼樣的一個策略但是我們想有些還是可以先溝通譬如說我們先以50%為一個對象"},{"start":267.836,"end":287.731,"text":"好先溝通我們滾動式調整那第二個偏遠地區學校教育發展條例那我想當初為了這個立法的目的是想要解決偏鄉環境交通不利解決失之不穩的問題那解決學生學習經費不足的問題但是立法至今超過7年各界對於成效"},{"start":288.892,"end":301.483,"text":"有很多的反思討論還是日益的增加我想所以昨天才召開公聽會又聽取意見教育部也曾說要送版本進來但是到現在都沒有部長你在忙什麼"},{"start":303.049,"end":326.234,"text":"我想跟委員報告他確實是地方在這個營養午餐法的這個設立他還有許多不一樣的一些意見所以偏鄉條例這裡邊我想我們確實是在希望能夠在跟地方因為營養午餐還是在提供地方的這些小學生嘛地方如果有許多的差距"},{"start":326.894,"end":346.889,"text":"的一些意見因為地方各方面的一個條件事實上是不一樣以目前來講有的有的這個縣市他營養午餐是縣市裡面就前額免費那有的地方他是希望政府可以多更多的一些支持所以我們會希望有更多的一些建立共識不然"},{"start":347.489,"end":376.272,"text":"在這裡邊法令下去的時候事實上地方大概也會有許多的一些不同的意見但過程讓我們知道一下你們在忙什麼要不然我們真的對於現在這樣子我們是非常非常的擔憂因為包含其實我也很清楚營養午餐裡面公辦的營養午餐它的廚房所有廚工所有營養我知道那個都需要後續的整合去協調所以民辦民營的這個部分就會希望有一些我想這個各個學校"},{"start":377.092,"end":396.257,"text":"各個地方縣市政府真的樣態不太一樣我想委員也充分理解我們現在就希望能夠建立一個大家至少能夠有一定的共識這個法案提出來也許至少大家就能夠來支持大概做這樣一個補充那你有沒有什麼期程表什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":398.405,"end":414.977,"text":"昨天在開會的時候本部市長張廖次長有回應基本上有兩個因素我們還在一起整合評估第一個因素才化法我也知道第二個因素八月份我們會召開一個全國性的會議這兩個會議跟那個因素處理了之後會具體跟委員做說明"},{"start":416.377,"end":434.817,"text":"部長那另外想跟你請問喔之前我有跟你就教校園目前依法禁用基改食品但台美關稅現在還在談面對國際貿易的壓力教育部如何堅守校園零基改這樣的底線喔與經濟部外交部是否有跨部會的協調機制這個部分"},{"start":436.004,"end":459.711,"text":"您要不要表達一下基改食品會不會進到校園我們目前的態度還是一樣的對所有的這些我們以在地食材提供我們這些小學生有一個更好的一個更新鮮健康的一個食材我想那是我們到目前的一個立場都沒有改變我想八月份主改傳聞不斷"},{"start":461.351,"end":467.847,"text":"部長 你也是被執政黨的立委點名要下台的人選之一我想部長有沒有信心要留任"},{"start":469.637,"end":497.602,"text":"還是你覺得外界對你有些誤會要不要透過這個機會這個場合跟大家說明一下謝謝委員關心我的氣流但是我一直覺得政務官至少從我個人來講這個進退要優雅要雍容就像我剛才也有主席提我說也許說明委員希望我留下來但是我想很多的因素那不是我能夠假設性的問題我想我在這邊我就不方便回答部長這樣子八個字"},{"start":499.031,"end":514.285,"text":"盡力而為 問心無愧啦那其他的政策執行面我不談喔但是我要跟你還是算是要鼓勵啦因為光是部長願意一同來支持夜光天使延伸事辦在台中"},{"start":515.649,"end":531.123,"text":"由台中先行來示範我就要給部長肯定那肯定部長願意給弱勢的學童能夠有一個翻身的機會多一些資源陪伴你沒有放棄這些弱勢的學童我想在這裡我還是要給你加油好嗎"},{"start":533.952,"end":549.833,"text":"但是另外我要跟你請教的一個問題我們教師能力到底是階段性的短缺還是結構性的崩壞照不到老師已經不是偶發的現象是現在逐漸成為常態過去我們就多認為缺老師"},{"start":551.255,"end":573.311,"text":"有可能是因為偏鄉或冷門的科目但是現在就連過去認為相對穩定的學科跟地區也都出現缺額補不滿報道率偏低部長教育部似乎是已經全面的掌握各個學校教師在職人力的實際缺額狀況有沒有建立一套依據學段學科"},{"start":574.231,"end":595.679,"text":"進行系統性的盤點人力資料的一個機制另外針對五年可預見的退休潮中央是不是已經有統籌規劃或者是有前瞻的佈局降低人力斷層的一個風險我想教育部在這幾年提出的值錢增益增量"},{"start":596.581,"end":612.476,"text":"培育擴大公費施培多元聘用方向我們都支持可是目前我是覺得這個方向沒有問題但是效果沒有到位啊到底我們現在的狀況是怎麼樣有沒有去做滾動式檢討根據"},{"start":615.579,"end":638.171,"text":"親子天下報導2022到2024全台教師增開缺超過1.5萬人占全體教師的10%卻有高達57.5的檢定合格人員不進入教職現在的情況是拿了證照卻不想當老師這樣的人越來越多那些師培生以及教職指教師"},{"start":639.927,"end":645.503,"text":"給我們的建議來看教育現場最大的痛點還是行政業務太多這我也有跟你講過"},{"start":647.677,"end":669.908,"text":"光老師他要處理的事情多如流氓我們要怎麼幫他增加終點費增加他的相關的權益教學的時間被壓縮升遷制度僵化長期職涯缺乏吸引力待遇有待提升整體就是不具吸引力部長我講了這麼多你到底有沒有針對這些問題去做全國性的調查"},{"start":671.793,"end":691.085,"text":"現在這三年來各縣市的教師正式只要他開出正式的缺以今年為例不管高中、國中、國小都超過入許率都超過90%以上也就是說我們事實上看到不足而只有少數大概以國中大概6%多"},{"start":693.03,"end":720.135,"text":"國小大概8%多那高中大概這個8點多%不到9%這裡邊反映了一個現象就是說各縣市他只要開出正式的名額大部分都招到了他們所需要的老師所以我們事實上有差距我也不敢否認就是說我們確實有少數的學校偏鄉的可能譬如說去年來講有某一個縣市"},{"start":721.135,"end":735.913,"text":"他希望招了十幾位的英文的老師報名有四十幾位可是經過教授們的這些這個所謂的委員的審查錄取是從缺"},{"start":737.543,"end":754.598,"text":"所以我當時也問了這個地方的教育局處長說那你這樣既然你缺了那麼多然後老師教授們都認為他不夠Qualify那這時候你的代理英文還是要有人上那這時候怎麼辦他說那我們還是從這裡邊的"},{"start":757.646,"end":781.28,"text":"來找代理老師這我要講的嘛所以我說數據上我們兩個有差距但是你不能否認還是有一些問題是那現在我就要講的學校正式的編制能力長期不足嘛仰賴的代理教師年年支撐課務嘛根據教師們的反應如今在學校教書的喔越來越困難也因此不少新進教師在報導不久後選擇離職啊這你有掌握嗎"},{"start":782.521,"end":806.177,"text":"我想有一些這個年輕人有更好的一個工作機會當然變動我們當然希望他不要有比教師更好的工作機會留財 惜財 愛財我們怎麼樣培育我們未來的主人翁我們一直在朝那個方向努力代理教師每年更換現在教學與行政工作"},{"start":807.455,"end":827.6,"text":"非常難以穩定的銜接這也是現在偏鄉地區更為嚴重師資缺額常常一缺再缺就是好幾個學期學校只能勉強靠遠距教學或者是跨校兼課來支撐這樣子最大的受害者是誰是孩子啊所以部長我剛剛提到這些問題教育部是不是有整體性的掌握"},{"start":829.397,"end":851.564,"text":"公文報告我們事實上這個從國教署第一線現場各地方的一些這個待遇老師其實你應該都知道啦我知道你知道啦但是問題是你知道但是不知道怎麼解決這就是問題我們沒有不知道怎麼解決但是解決是確實需要一些時間譬如說我們看到的小學老師偏鄉老師"},{"start":852.904,"end":869.733,"text":"你今天一個師培進來大學四年再加上教育學分要五年甚至六年才會有後端的這些合格老師他參加國家考試包括地方還有開學我們這裡邊也希望課程裡邊去做一些怎麼樣的改善"},{"start":870.233,"end":886.508,"text":"讓學生能夠他的教育學分能夠在畢業學分數裡面他就可以預修而且能夠成為一個他的同時能夠大學畢業的一個學分的一個承認我們事實上做了許多的改變包含偏鄉"},{"start":887.509,"end":905.557,"text":"一些代理代課的老師他怎麼樣讓他能夠有教育學分因為偏鄉他不可能白天出來上課當然我們就開始結合但是時間有限啦我們現在focus在這個行政減量了行政減量講了十幾年了啦感謝委員提醒其實蔡英文前總統"},{"start":906.417,"end":924.647,"text":"潘文忠前部長歷任國教署長到縣市政府首長都公開表態要支持行政減量但是基層老師反映行政工作不減反增全教總2023年調查超過六成老師認為行政負擔沉重而且教學時間被大幅壓縮最後還是我們的孩子受害"},{"start":925.507,"end":940.252,"text":"所以到底有沒有什麼辦法能夠再更有效的把這個行政減量我知道你有改進公委員報告如果以現在的我們所謂的許多的考核跟評鑑的那個項目大概至少都減少一半到三分之二"},{"start":941.172,"end":961.101,"text":"所以到底是你的感受跟老師的感受不一樣也跟委員報告當教育部在減量的時候事實上地方因為來自於家長更高的期待他們也在不知不覺又在增加嘛所以教育部在減量地方在增加來造成我們第一線上老師有許多的一些就我們來努力但是不能把所有的東西都"},{"start":966.664,"end":994.534,"text":"加在教育部我們真的有在努力我想可以讓署長來直接講許多的評鑑我剛剛才給你肯定啦你後面的國教署長有在做事我知道啦你有沒有減量有可是我現在要講的是說就像你說的嘛家長的期待地方縣市首長的期待可能增加一些行政的你們要去幫忙協助溝通去做一個整體的控管我覺得這部分你也要保護老師啊"},{"start":995.194,"end":1013.325,"text":"因為保護老師才會保護學生啊包含校事會 我剛才也有幾位委員在關心我們也在檢討好啦 我最後30秒問一個問題啦教育部 對不起 運動部啦我們要成立了啦 9月9號要掛牌到底可不可以運動部設置在台中你們現在還沒講啊可不可以"},{"start":1020.247,"end":1046.75,"text":"台中南來北往多麼方便高雄這些民意代表他們也可能要到台北很遠台中不是很好嗎報告委員我想很多縣市都對我們運動部的位置會蠻多的期待不過光是您看就我現在體育署我自己本身每天跑立法院跟行政院我的同仁每天這樣跑說實在所以你是覺得在立法院旁邊最好就對了事實上越近越好真的是這樣子"},{"start":1047.551,"end":1067.948,"text":"同仁其實每天都要跑我上次跆拳道的時候發生世大運的事情我支持你當部長喔包委員我們沒有被徵詢謝謝謝謝委員可不可以台中多考慮一下包委員這部分我們目前應該會在台北行政院到底有沒有在台北喔但是我們會在未來還要再重新再行政院核定了沒啦行政院核定了沒"},{"start":1069.789,"end":1091.216,"text":"呃目前是應該應該是核定了應該應該是在哪裡在目前在我們本本屬的體育大樓本部在這邊然後那個體育署直接轉體育部然後我們的全民運輸以及產業科技師都會在六張梨站旁邊的一個冠德和平大樓哦你說冠德培大樓對啊你的"},{"start":1092.376,"end":1110.222,"text":"體育署的運動部本身會在現在體育署所在地體育大樓哦好那未來會再尋找一塊地來重新來蓋一個整合的一個運動部但是應該很多年之後了好好好有有消息就好了啦那沒關係我們持續在爭取其他的在台中啊好謝謝謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢官員請回座接下來有請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時41分）謝謝召委，有請部長、體育署署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。臺師大這個風暴擴大，新聞也不斷地爆料出來，像跆拳道的校友也自爆自己抽過血，很多相關的關鍵我們都非常關切，今天所有的委員都非常關心此類案件後續的追蹤，但是也有幾個問題想另外就教。體育有很多地方需要我們幫忙協助的，請問一下，臺灣雙職籃合併，現在確定破局，署長有掌握嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們有沒有後續的追蹤？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我跟兩邊的負責的人都有見面，也有在瞭解他們的狀況，不過兩個聯盟，說實在他們的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：差距會很大嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：不小，他們在經營的理念上面差距不小。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我認為還是要多收集一些相關的資料，你也應該要跟產業人士多溝通，我們也有很多的大前輩，在籃球界是不是有辦法繼續去磨合？我要分享的是網路有一些相關的文字，我們也可以去查詢，其中有分享日本整合成功的關鍵因素。政府跟FIBA介入形成改革的壓力，FIBA當時是直接對於日本籃協實施禁賽的處分，迫使JBA必須要放棄舊有的模式接受改革，我相信當時政府一定也會給予相關的資源，讓整併不僅是體育的問題，更上升到國家層面，還有國家是怎麼樣的期待。未來體育部要成立，關於能不能合併職籃，這個部分是很多球迷的期待，我希望你們要有更大的魄力，如果過程會痛，但是結果是甜美的，我想你應該要繼續努力。署長，你覺得呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，你剛剛說的沒有錯，FIBA的部分的確針對每個地區、每個國家的籃球職業聯盟都有他的做法及規範，這部分我會跟籃協再來研究看看，可以怎麼樣來協助這兩個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對嘛！去研究一下，甚至是就教於前面的狀況，是不是有一些例子可循，或者是能夠找一些外部資源幫忙協助，這部分我希望你能夠再更加積極。","部長，我想再請教幾個問題，營養午餐法什麼時候可以送立法院審查？3月20日說要持續跟地方政府溝通，目前的狀況如何？最棘手、最分歧的有哪些？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員說明一下，委員關心的部分我們持續在進行，下一週我們會找幾個縣市先行諮詢，但是之前……"],["羅委員廷瑋：先行諮詢？3月20日到現在了？"],["彭署長富源：對，之前跟委員講是下一週。之前跟委員報告的是有幾個議題，因為受財劃法的影響比較深，財劃法的方向現在還沒有很明確，所以我們先用諮詢，不要耽誤時間，一旦確定的時候全縣市會召開決策的會議，所以現在先啟動諮詢。第二點，剛剛委員問到項目，第一個是收費，第二個是人，第三個是偏鄉，大概是這幾個課題還需要持續，當然中間每一項都會涉及到財源的配置，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：財劃法跟財源的配置，我都可以尊重，後續滾動式修正嘛，但是就像我說的先行溝通，3月20日到現在，你下禮拜才要溝通，是嗎？3月20日就說要溝通。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，中間有持續就剛剛講的3個議題溝通，當時4月14日答應委員之後，因為受財劃法的影響蠻深的，我們也覺得不能再等，可是財劃法沒有很明確的話，在溝通上，地方政府也不知道我們要採取什麼樣的策略，但是我們想有些還是可以先溝通，譬如說我們先以50%為對象。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，先溝通嘛，我們滾動式調整。第二個，偏遠地區學校教育發展條例，當初立法目的是想要解決偏鄉環境交通不利、師資不穩、學生學習經費不足的問題，但是立法至今超過7年，各界對於成效有很多的反思，討論日益增加，所以昨天召開公聽會聽取意見，教育部也曾說要送版本進來，但是到現在都沒有。部長，你在忙什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，營養午餐法的設立，地方確實還有許多不一樣的意見，所以偏鄉條例這邊，我們是希望能夠再跟地方……因為營養午餐是提供地方的小學生，地方的意見如果有許多差距，因為事實上，地方各方面條件是不一樣的，以目前來講，有的縣市營養午餐是全額免費，有的地方是希望政府給予更多的支持，所以我們會希望建立更多的共識，不然法令下去的時候，地方大概也會有許多不同的意見。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但過程讓我們知道一下你們在忙什麼，要不然現在這樣子，我們是非常非常地擔憂。"],["鄭部長英耀：其實委員也很清楚，營養午餐裡邊，公辦營養午餐的廚房、所有廚工、所有營養師都是政府出嘛。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，都需要後續的整合、協調。"],["鄭部長英耀：所以民辦民營的部分，就會希望有一些……各個學校、各個地方縣市政府真的樣態不太一樣，我想委員也充分理解，我們現在希望大家至少能夠有一定的共識，這個法案提出來，也許大家就能夠支持，大概做這樣的補充說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你有沒有什麼期程表，什麼時候可以送進來？"],["彭署長富源：報告委員，昨天開會的時候，本部張廖次長有回應，基本上有2個因素，我們還在一起整合評估。第一個因素是財劃法，委員也知道；第二個因素，8月份我們會召開一個全國性的會議，這兩個會議跟因素處理了之後，會具體跟委員做說明，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，另外想請問，之前我有跟你就教，校園目前依法禁用基改食品，但臺美關稅現在還在談，面對國際貿易的壓力，教育部如何堅守校園零基改的底線？與經濟部、外交部是否有跨部會的協調機制？這個部分您要不要表達一下，基改食品會不會進到校園？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前的態度還是一樣，提供小學生更好、更新鮮、健康的在地食材，到目前我們的立場都沒有改變。"],["羅委員廷瑋：8月份組改傳聞不斷，部長，你也是被執政黨立委點名要下台的人選之一，部長有沒有信心留任？還是你覺得外界對你有一些誤會，要不要透過這個機會、這個場合跟大家說明一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心我的去留，但是我一直覺得政務官，至少我個人來講，進退要優雅、要雍容……"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。"],["鄭部長英耀：就像我剛才也有，主席也提……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長……"],["鄭部長英耀：我說也許說不定委員希望我留下來，但是很多因素不是我能夠的。假設性的問題，我想在這邊就不方便回答。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，這樣子啦，八個字：「盡力而為，問心無愧」，其他的政策執行面我不談，但我要鼓勵你，因為光是部長願意一同支持夜光天使延伸試辦在臺中，由臺中先行試辦，我就要給部長肯定，肯定部長願意給弱勢學童有一個翻身的機會，多一些陪伴資源，你沒有放棄這些弱勢的學童，在這裡我還是要給你加油，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是另外我要跟你請教一個問題，教師人力到底是階段性的短缺，還是結構性的崩壞？招不到老師已經不是偶發的現象，而是逐漸成為常態，過去我們多認為缺老師有可能是因為偏鄉或冷門的科目，但是現在就連過去認為相對穩定的學科跟地區，也都出現缺額補不滿、報到率偏低，部長，教育部是不是已經全面掌握各個學校教師在職人力的實際缺額狀況，有沒有建立一套依據學段、學科，進行系統性盤點人力資料的機制？另外，針對5年可預見的退休潮，中央是不是已經有統籌規劃或者是有前瞻的布局，降低人力斷層的風險？教育部在這幾年提出的職前增量培育、擴大公費師培、多元聘用，方向我們都支持，目前我是覺得這個方向沒有問題，但是效果沒有到位，到底現在的狀況是怎麼樣，有沒有做滾動式檢討？","根據親子天下報導，2022到2024年全臺教師開缺超過1.5萬人，占全體教師的10%，卻有高達57.5%的檢定合格人員不進入教職，現在的情況是拿了證照卻不想當老師，這樣的人越來越多，依那些師培生以及教職教師給我們的建議來看，教育現場最大的痛點還是行政業務太多，這我也有跟你講過，老師要處理的事情多如牛毛，我們要怎麼幫他增加鐘點費，增加相關的權益？教學的時間被壓縮，升遷制度僵化，長期職涯缺乏吸引力，待遇有待提升，整體就是不具吸引力嘛，部長，我講了這麼多，你到底有沒有針對這些問題去做全國性的調查？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這3年來各縣市的教師甄試，只要開出正式缺，以今年為例，不管高中、國中、國小的錄取率都超過90%以上，也就是事實上看到不足額只有少數，大概國中6%多，國小大概8%多，高中大概8%多，不到9%，這裡邊反映了一個現象，就是各縣市只要開出正式的名額，大部分都招到他們所需要的老師。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們數字上有差距？"],["鄭部長英耀：我也不敢否認就是說，我們確實有少數學校偏鄉的可能，譬如說，去年有某一個縣市希望招十幾位英文老師，報名有四十幾位，可是經過教授們即所謂的委員審查後，錄取是從缺，我當時也問了這個地方的教育局處長，既然缺了那麼多，然後老師、教授們都認為他不夠qualified，但英文還是要有人上課，這時候的代理怎麼辦？他說我們還是從這裡邊來找代理老師。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我要講的嘛，數據上我們兩個有差距，但是你不能否認還是有一些問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在我要講的是，學校正式的編制人力長期不足，仰賴代理教師年年支撐課務，根據教師們的反映，如今在學校教書越來越困難，也因此不少新進教師在報到不久後選擇離職，這你有掌握嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想有些年輕人如果有更好的工作機會，當然變動、改變他的……是比較有可能的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們當然希望他們不要有比教師更好的工作機會，留才、惜才、愛才，不然怎麼培育未來的主人翁？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，教育部也跟委員報告，我們一直朝那一個方向努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：代理教師每年更換，現在教學與行政工作非常難以穩定地銜接，偏鄉地區更為嚴重，師資缺額常常一缺再缺就是好幾個學期，學校只能勉強靠遠距教學，或者是跨校兼課來支撐，這樣子最大的受害者是誰？是孩子。部長，所以我剛剛提到的這些問題，教育部是不是有整體性的掌握？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上從國教署第一線現場，各地方的代理老師……"],["羅委員廷瑋：其實你應該都知道。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們都知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道你知道啦！但是問題是，你知道，但是不知道怎麼解決，這就是問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們沒有不知道怎麼解決，但是解決確實需要一些時間，譬如說，我們看到的小學老師、偏鄉老師，今天一個師培進來，大學4年，再加上教育學分要5年，甚至6年，才會有後端的這些合格老師，他參加國家考試，包括地方還要有開缺，我們也希望從課程裡面去做一些改善，讓學生的教育學分能夠在畢業學分數裡面就可以預修，而且同時能夠獲得大學畢業抵免學分的承認，我們事實上做了許多的改變，包含偏鄉一些代理、代課的老師，怎麼樣讓他能夠有教育學分？因為偏鄉，他不可能白天出來上課，我們就開始結合線上的學習……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，但是時間有限，我們現在focus在行政減量，講十幾年了！"],["鄭部長英耀：關於行政減量，感謝委員提醒，其實我想……"],["羅委員廷瑋：蔡英文前總統、潘文忠前部長、歷任國教署長到縣市政府首長都公開表態要支持行政減量，但是基層老師反映行政工作不減反增，全教總2023年調查，超過六成老師認為行政負擔沉重，而且教學時間被大幅壓縮，最後還是我們的孩子受害。所以到底有沒有什麼辦法能夠更有效地把行政減量？我知道你有改進……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，以現在我們許多的考核跟評鑑的項目，至少都減少了一半到三分之二，就是說這些指標……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你的感受跟老師的感受不一樣。"],["鄭部長英耀：也跟委員報告，當教育部在減量的時候，事實上地方因為來自於家長更高的期待，他們也在不知不覺再增加……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，所以你不能說只有你減……"],["鄭部長英耀：教育部在減量，地方在增加，就造成第一線老師許多的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：整體的教學環境、整體的老師，該怎麼樣幫他大幅度的減少？這個我覺得教育部還要再多調查。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個我們來努力，但是不能把所有的東西都加在教育部身上，我們真的有在努力，我想可以讓署長來直接講，許多評鑑的項目……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛才有給你肯定，你後面的國教署長有在做事，我知道啦！你有沒有減量，有！可是我現在要講的是，就像你說的，家長的期待、地方縣市首長的期待，可能增加了一些行政的，你們要去幫忙、協助溝通，去做一個整體的控管。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們願意來努力，感謝委員提醒。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我覺得這部分你也要保護老師，因為保護老師才會保護學生。"],["鄭部長英耀：包含校事會議，剛才也有幾位委員在關心，我們也在檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好啦！最後30秒我問一個問題，我們要成立運動部了，9月9日要掛牌，到底運動部可不可以設置在臺中？你們現在還沒講啊！可不可以？臺中南來北往多麼方便，高雄這些民意代表要到臺北也很遠，臺中不是很好嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，很多縣市都對運動部的位置會有滿多的期待，不過光是就我現在體育署每天跑立法院跟行政院，我的同仁每天這樣跑，說實在如果離開臺北地區……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你是覺得在立法院旁邊最好就對了？"],["鄭署長世忠：事實上離越近越好，真的是這樣子，我們的同仁其實每天都要跑。"],["羅委員廷瑋：上次世大運發生跆拳道事件的時候，我支持你當部長喔！"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我沒有被徵詢，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可不可以臺中多考慮一下？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們目前應該會在臺北。"],["羅委員廷瑋：在臺北喔？"],["鄭署長世忠：但是我們未來還會重新再找更大的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：行政院核定了沒？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前應該是核定了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：核定了？在哪裡？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前在本署的體育大樓，本部在這邊，然後……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以就體育署直接轉體育部？"],["鄭署長世忠：然後我們的全民署以及產業及科技司都會在六張犁站旁邊的冠德和平大樓。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你說會在冠德和平大樓？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你的體育署的……"],["鄭署長世忠：運動部本身會在現在體育署所在地──體育大樓，未來會再尋找一塊地重新來蓋一個整合的運動部，但那應該是很多年之後了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，有消息就好了，沒關係，我們再持續爭取其他的在臺中。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請廖先翔委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b931d966f648fad7b770dc6911ab88c3aae4ff6bd0191219aef952555c339954dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:41:23 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謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":24.842,"end":35.795,"text":"主委那因為川普昨天又公布了針對半導體所謂100%然後有在美國設廠就不再豁免的概念但是這個大概"},{"start":37.277,"end":59.15,"text":"還不是很明確因為川普這樣的宣示但是相對比較明確的是8月7號已經上路的這個暫時性關稅那台灣就是20%所以我們看起來就是說對美國逆差的國家包括台灣是美國第六大逆差的第六差國家所以台灣在跟美國談判"},{"start":60.451,"end":64.135,"text":"當然可能要面對相對比較大的壓力他會希望台灣要釋出我們一些產品的進口的關稅的下降或者是其他的方式但是這個20%來確實有很多國人在"},{"start":78.807,"end":92.588,"text":"在比較就是跟日本跟韓國那跟日本台灣跟日本呢產品的事實上互補性比較高一點所以我們跟日本相對來說同樣在出口美國的我們的競爭競爭比較少比較少"},{"start":94.631,"end":121.665,"text":"但是相對的韓國就比較多了所以我想要請教的就是主委就是說韓國過去跟美國因為有FTA有自由貿易協定所以他們在於FTA的一個架構之下韓國跟美國之間有超過95%的商品是零關稅95%的商品那是過去的時代但是川普看起來他的這個對等關稅"},{"start":123.226,"end":150.651,"text":"他是推翻了過去的自由貿易協定嘛是這樣的沒有錯嘛那自然推翻了過去的自由貿易協定那台灣跟韓國過去在競爭上因為韓國有FTA台灣跟美國還沒有簽署了BTA或者是FTA那是不是台灣跟韓國之間過去應該就有所謂稅率的劣勢我們的廠商在出口美國的這一塊"},{"start":151.851,"end":174.382,"text":"就非科技產品式的非科技產品嘛在WTO的豁免清單裡面的話大家是條件沒有差異很大WTO這個架構之下大家是一樣的嘛但是在這個豁免清單在科技產品類以外的我們的確在稅率上面我們是因為它有FTA的優勢"},{"start":175.714,"end":186.865,"text":"它有FTA的優勢所以可能台灣過去有一些產品在銷售美國的時候我們可能也會有課3% 5%幾%對不對那現在好現在又比較起來在對等關稅下韓國是15%那台灣是20%"},{"start":196.513,"end":217.888,"text":"我們差了這5%但是如果再把之前FTA的因素來做一個稍微扣掉多少事實上差的%數也許沒有那麼多甚至也許在過去可能台灣跟韓國我們被課5%以上的那會不會因為15%跟20%的差距反而減少了跟韓國的競爭的關稅的劣勢"},{"start":227.103,"end":254.906,"text":"目前我的認知是沒有啦沒有這樣的狀況目前是沒有為什麼呢因為它是增增加增的加增在那個既有稅率下加增所以我們現在的20%就在既有的稅率上加增再加增好那這一次我要問的第二個問題因為今天日本日本就忽然出了一個新聞說日本方面也去說哇原來他們的15%"},{"start":256.801,"end":279.679,"text":"是指以前低於15%的以前低於15%的就是以15%來計算那如果高於在以前他的商品是高於15%的那就不是15%還是用之前的一個關稅這是日本今天有這樣的一個訊息出來所以他們認為說這樣的話並不是所有商品都退到15%"},{"start":281.932,"end":296.705,"text":"那未來我們台灣的談判也是這樣的一個邏輯嗎我相信我們現在台灣團隊是很聰明的啦他如果有看到日本這個訊息應該會納進來做談判的討論因為這個訊息跑出來嘛因為日本已經發現說這個15%並不是所有商品一律15%他是指說過去是20%的雖然已經談到15%可是還是一樣用20%來計算"},{"start":310.895,"end":326.806,"text":"因為這時候很多是美國單方面因為他們主導談判所以他們很多決策是他們在做在做決策但是在談判的時候剛剛講到的就是說這部分我們台灣應該也要注意對我覺得這應該我們會注意到"},{"start":330.456,"end":355.846,"text":"還是我們已經注意到了因為我們注意到是歐盟的部分因為歐盟已經有寫出來那有協議但是歐盟的協議是怎樣日本當時好像沒有協議歐盟是全部都是15%他是說原稅率高於15%的就不再加徵那原稅率低於15%的課15%那跟日本有點一樣因為他是加徵稅率的加徵"},{"start":357.932,"end":384.873,"text":"所以原稅這樣我還是不懂你剛說我們台灣如果原稅率是5%原稅率5%那在對等關稅之下是加徵對變25%是這樣嗎台灣目前是這樣但是等到談判的結果像歐盟這樣的寫法就變成是說舉個例子歐盟的做法就會我們20%然後原稅率是5%的話他就會直接寫出來是20%"},{"start":386.673,"end":411.587,"text":"歐盟是這樣歐盟是這樣做他就是原稅率如果是5%原稅率如果低於15%的就以15%算就以15%算他沒有加徵OK他沒有加徵那原稅如果高於15%的呢就以原稅率就以原稅率這是歐盟的那就跟日本一樣啦對日本也是這樣類似這樣所以日本可能他們原本期待都是15%結果後來發現他們跟歐盟也一樣"},{"start":414.349,"end":428.074,"text":"如果原稅率高於15%的他們一樣是被課原稅因為這個有像在232裡面對銅這些銅鐵這種有50%的稅嘛那是232的規範232又是另外232啊就不在這15%就不在這他們的15%的那個稅率的規範就會在50%來課證嘛所以這跟我的理解又不一樣所以232不是累加的"},{"start":444.678,"end":464.53,"text":"232就是說如果232的稅率已經定在那邊了就繼續走232對繼續走232所以不管不管20不管有沒有這個20存在他們就是繼續走232包括這次的晶片就會就會也就不在這個範圍晶片就是另外嘛對不對所以我們大概有74%點幾的產品像是在232的範圍對我們的產品在232很多對"},{"start":474.366,"end":483.432,"text":"嗯 主委應該我的時間不多啦可是我覺得我們這樣的一個對話我還是很多概念我沒辦法釐清所以我覺得國人會更亂"},{"start":485.004,"end":508.604,"text":"那當然現在還在談判的一個階段中我是覺得說我們整個談判的過程就是要把所有對我們不利以及我們有利的因素都整理好那以及現在因為現在歐盟跟日本現在也發現說有很多狀況好像跟他們談判的時候的預期是不一樣的那這些東西如果我們這個戰爭性關稅我們還在進行接下來的談判我覺得這些東西我們有機會都要跟美國說得好"},{"start":514.056,"end":530.195,"text":"好不好 盡量朝向讓它是簡單然後大家是知道的好的我們會轉好如果是說好單純是用232那232我們現在在談判也在一併談嘛那到底未來不要再累加 累加就比較可怕"},{"start":531.338,"end":555.112,"text":"這我們不知道啦我們希望你們好好談但是整個狀況如果談出了一個有一個結論之後要跟國人報告可能就要把這一些我剛設想的有很多到底是怎麼累加或者是高於原本高於20%的部分或是高於多少的部分那以後是要怎麼計算我剛剛都要給國人一次的說明清楚好不好好的好的我會轉達謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們就"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1121,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時41分）謝謝召委，是不是有請劉主委？"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，因為川普昨天又公布了針對半導體產業關稅100%，但不適用於在美國設廠的公司，這樣豁免的概念。這大概還不是很明確，但川普有這樣的宣示，但是相對比較明確的是8月7號已經上路的暫時性關稅，臺灣就是20%。看起來對美國逆差的國家，包括臺灣是美國第六大逆差國，所以臺灣在跟美國談判，當然可能要面對相對比較大的壓力。他會希望臺灣要釋出一些產品進口關稅下降或者是其他的方式，但是這20%確實有很多國人在跟日本、韓國做比較。臺灣跟日本產品的互補性比較高一點，所以我們跟日本相對來說，同樣在出口美國的國家來說，我們的競爭……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：競爭比較少。"],["蔡委員易餘：比較少。但是相對的，韓國就比較多了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我想要請教主委的是，韓國過去跟美國有FTA，有自由貿易協定，所以他們在FTA的架構之下，韓國跟美國之間有超過95%的商品是零關稅。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：95%的商品零關稅，那是過去的時代。但是看起來川普的對等關稅是推翻了過去的自由貿易協定，是這樣沒有錯嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：推翻了過去的自由貿易協定，臺灣跟韓國過去在競爭上，因為韓國有FTA，臺灣跟美國還沒有簽署BTA或者是FTA，那是不是臺灣跟韓國之間，我們的廠商在出口美國的這塊過去應該就有稅率的劣勢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就非科技產品來說，是這樣沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：非科技產品嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，在WTO的豁免清單裡面，大家條件沒有差異很大。"],["蔡委員易餘：在WTO的這個架構之下，大家是一樣的嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是這個豁免清單中，科技產品類以外的，我們的確在稅率上面是比較劣勢，因為他有FTA的優勢。"],["蔡委員易餘：他有FTA的優勢嘛！所以可能臺灣過去有一些產品銷售美國的時候，我們可能有課3%、5%等等，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在比較起來，在對等關稅下，韓國是15%，臺灣是20%，差了5%，但是如果再把之前FTA的因素稍微扣掉一點，事實上差的%數也許沒有那麼多。過去臺灣跟韓國相比，我們可能被課5%以上，現在會不會因為15%跟20%的差距反而減少了跟韓國競爭之關稅的劣勢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我的認知是沒有！"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有這樣的狀況？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，目前是沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：為什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為它是加徵的。"],["蔡委員易餘：加徵？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，在既有稅率下加徵。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我們現在的20%是在既有的稅率上再加徵？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：這就是我要問的第二個問題。今天日本忽然出了一個新聞說，原來他們的15%是指以前商品低於15%的就是以15%來計算；如果以前他的商品是高於15%的，那就不是15%，還是用之前的關稅計算。日本今天有這樣的訊息出來，所以他們認為說……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，依據之前的邏輯是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以他們認為並不是所有的商品都退到15%，未來我們臺灣的談判也是這樣的邏輯嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我相信我們現在臺灣團隊是很聰明的，他如果有看到日本這個訊息，應該會納進來做談判的討論！"],["蔡委員易餘：因為這個訊息出來，日本已經發現說，這個15%並不是所有商品一律15%。而是指過去是20%的，雖然已經談到15%，可是還是一樣用20%來計算。因為這很多是美國單方面……因為他們主導談判，所以很多決策都是他們在做，但是在談判的時候，剛剛講到的這個部分，我們臺灣應該也要注意啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我覺得這個應該我們會注意到。"],["蔡委員易餘：還是我們已經注意到了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們注意到是歐盟的部分，因為歐盟已經有寫出來，有協議，但是……"],["蔡委員易餘：歐盟的協議是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：日本當時好像沒有協議。"],["蔡委員易餘：歐盟是全部都是15%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他是說原稅率高於15%的就不再加徵，原稅率低於15%的課15%，跟日本有點類似！因為他是加徵稅率的。"],["蔡委員易餘：加徵？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣我還是不懂！你剛剛說我們臺灣如果原稅率是5%，在對等關稅之下加徵就變25%，是這樣嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有、沒有。臺灣目前是這樣，但是等到談判的結果……像歐盟這樣的寫法就變成是說……舉個例子，歐盟的作法是，如果關稅是20%，然後原稅率5%的話，他就會直接寫出來是20%。"],["蔡委員易餘：歐盟是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：歐盟是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：他就是原稅率如果是5%……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：原稅率如果低於15%的就以15%算，沒有加徵。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果原稅率高於15%的呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就以原稅率算。"],["蔡委員易餘：就以原稅率……這是歐盟的，那就跟日本一樣啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，類似這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以日本可能原本期待都是15%，結果後來發現他們跟歐盟也一樣，如果原稅率高於15%的，他們一樣是被課原稅率。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個像在232條款裡面對銅、鐵這種有50%的稅，那是232條款的規範。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，232條款是另外232條款啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就不在他們15%稅率的規範內，就會在50%來課徵嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：這跟我的理解又不一樣，所以232條款不是累加的？就是說，如果232條款的稅率已經定在那邊了，就繼續走232條款？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：繼續走232條款，所以不管有沒有這個20%存在，他們就是繼續走232條款？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，包括這次的晶片也就不在這個範圍內。"],["蔡委員易餘：晶片就是另外，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們大概有百分之七十四點幾的產品項是在232條款的範圍。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們的產品在232條款有很多。主委，我的時間不多，雖然我們這樣的對話，但還是有很多概念我沒辦法釐清，所以我覺得國人會更亂。","當然，現在還在談判的階段中，我覺得我們整個談判的過程，就是要把所有對我們不利，以及我們有利的因素都整理好。現在歐盟跟日本也發現，有很多狀況好像跟他們談判的時候的預期是不一樣的！如果我們設個暫時性關稅，我們還在進行接下來的談判，我覺得這些東西我們有機會都要跟美國把它談好，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：盡量朝向讓它是簡單的，然後大家是知道的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我們會轉達。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果單純是用232條款，那現在在談判時232條款我們也在一併談，希望未來不要再累加，累加就會比較可怕。這我們不知道！我們希望你們好好談，但是整個狀況如果談出一個結論之後，要跟國人報告可能就要把我剛才設想的那些，像到底是怎麼累加，或者是原本高於20%的部分或是高於多少的部分以後是要怎麼計算，我覺得這些都要向國人一次說明清楚，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我會轉達。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們就等最後關稅談判結束之後請院長來跟立法院報告，也跟國人報告。","登記發言委員除不在場外其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員林岱樺、張嘉郡、張啓楷所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分請相關單位於一週內書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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請問一下現在如果直接問你 在董事會裡面川普要求台積電多投資兩千億美金那不曉得你的態度 以及台積電的態度會是怎樣我還是要看台積電的分析啦那這種投資一定要分析嘛那分析利弊 分析所有的一切嘛那我等待他的分析啦但是會不會討論我"},{"start":89.975,"end":112.901,"text":"我也至少應該沒有在議題內目前所以下週董事會不會討論到台積電要不要去增加投資這個議題我們沒辦法去會不會有臨時的議題但是至少目前我們沒有要至少目前是沒有昨天提出來那如果台積電還是要看台積電有沒有要有沒有把他納入議題來討論"},{"start":114.586,"end":132.456,"text":"因為你也是董事之一嘛而且你又是官方的代表你應該不是被動對你也是有一些主動權所以才請教你的態度不會我沒辦法在董事會跟他們講說聽到媒體川普有這樣講你要不要這樣做那如果按照主委這樣講法還是要由經營團隊來對他經營的現況的狀態提出評估"},{"start":139.52,"end":161.641,"text":"至於他要不要take這樣的想法也是經營團隊做出我們看到魏哲嘉董事長他講的最新的說法是說台積電目前就是投資1650億美金目前還是以這個態度那您是說下週沒有這個議題但是不知道會不會忽然間有臨時提案這目前您掌握的狀況這個是"},{"start":164.144,"end":169.652,"text":"謝謝那另外一個就是我早上有看到你發言你說即便是232川普的關稅加到100%你覺得也沒問題因為台灣很有競爭力我沒有說一定沒有問題但是對我們的衝擊相較別的國家來看目前我們的衝擊是"},{"start":180.686,"end":204.015,"text":"還算是 他是因為別的國家半導體也要100%的狀況 他也是100%對 大家都是100%的狀況 多數沒有在美國設置就是同樣條件情況之下你認為我們有競爭力嗎所以不會 是從競爭的角度我早上的說法是我們在這個業界我們是領先的國家我知道 我知道 這我還沒有問問題的但是我的問題是說你現在是用競爭的角度在談這個事但問題是你今天可能會產生兩個問題嘛第一個 如果"},{"start":211.058,"end":234.775,"text":"232關稅是100%半導體是100%的話那還是會壓縮到台積電的獲利啊還是會啊因為到時候品牌商有可能會叫台積電來分擔這個關稅所產生的成本嘛這是第一個問題嘛第二個問題是那產業他有沒有可能因為不想要付這100%他就直接就移到美國去這也是有可能那如果移過去的話會影響到國內的就業嘛"},{"start":236.596,"end":266.082,"text":"其實還有第三個問題啦 第三個問題就是那這個232其實它影響的不是只有半導體產業它還有影響其他電子業那其他的電子業是不是如你所講的在全球都是這麼有都是那麼樂觀啦所以不曉得這個主委你是怎麼看待這個事情針對台積電的部分喔 因為台積電在美國十幾年前就設廠了在奧拉岡州那亞利桑那的第一廠也也都蓋好了嘛 所以它"},{"start":266.702,"end":288.243,"text":"已經符合川普零關稅的條件所以今天台積電我剛剛聽其他委員的分享是股價的大漲因為它本身更具競爭力因為台積電關稅是零那當然台灣有一些已經在美國有工廠的那你這次這個過程看起來都有受惠"},{"start":289.564,"end":310.538,"text":"那另外對於其他廠商我想我今天早上也說明很多次我們其實都做過座談會我們當然那時候的關稅沒有到那麼高只是大家在談關稅的時候只要是齊頭式的大家競爭對手也是拉那麼高的話他們認為就競爭的角度我們就所以諸位對不起我們時間有限所以你認為說這個232關稅就算"},{"start":313.76,"end":339.715,"text":"再高其實對台積電或是其他廠商來說是有利的你的結論是這樣委員你這個結論是不對的因為你剛剛講說因為他們在那個美國已經有廠啦所以這不會影響它嘛我講的是叫相較喔我知道當你都在100%的時候相較其他的地方但是我剛剛提的是它有沒有可能它有沒有可能就更增加投資嘛等一下我沒有講完就是說它有沒有可能會因為它"},{"start":340.695,"end":347.785,"text":"產業就直接移過去不想被抽太多然後甚至壓縮利潤嘛我剛剛講的是這個嘛你沒有回答嘛對我最後問一個問題你的台積電"},{"start":350.891,"end":370.738,"text":"因為那個工程最近有發生有工程師就竊取二奈米的機密資料那昨天大家在討論說是日本這個廠商日本廠商有一個合作的廠商是他們的晶片國家隊所以我不知道說我們現在在政府包括主委您同時是國會主委您也本身也是台積電的官方董事"},{"start":371.718,"end":380.612,"text":"你對於日本有公司然後利用這種方式可能疑似得到我們的二代名的機密資料你的態度是什麼"},{"start":383.033,"end":408.297,"text":"我的態度是很清楚的第一個我們我第一個時間其實我有這個去通知這個台積電請他說明因為我們希望能夠從此把門關起來其實遇到問題解決問題比較重要那我們先把這個問題要解決掉把門關好那台積電看起來已經做好了新的各種因為這是他主動偵測那現在他主要是"},{"start":411.658,"end":427.198,"text":"主要的原因他们也在解决那就政府而言检调出去之后国科会也进来依据国安法的部分都进来了那相关权责单位也进来了那整个背后的犯案动机可能要经过检调调查的结果了"},{"start":427.358,"end":443.092,"text":"我們現在可能很難影射說就是哪一家公司啦那看當事人的犯案動機經過偵查之後應該會有個明朗的結果所以你現在的態度就是說先只有就是先防避不要再讓這個事情再繼續然後第二個是說檢調介入那政府現在面對"},{"start":444.173,"end":462.189,"text":"可能日本的公司他現在疑似竊取了我們機密那這件事情政府的態度是什麼我不是說針對台積電政府的態度很清楚這是一個國安的問題所以我們會引用國安法來處理但是因為你的意思是說因為國安法是針對我們內部嘛我現在是說政府對外因為這是日本的公司啊你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":463.052,"end":480.828,"text":"我的態度很清楚你不要講說對台積電的態度或者是說對犯案我的態度剛才也講得很清楚我們必須偵查清楚這個當事人犯案的背後的動機他背後是不是一定是日本人其實我們現在是一個議程因為這是國與國的事情我們必須把事情查得很清楚"},{"start":481.368,"end":497.255,"text":"然後再來做對 查清楚那現在因為人都已經在都在剪掉的掌握上了他應該可以查清楚對 查清楚之後如果是牽涉到國慾國你才會有一個比較強硬的態度出來是不是應該會依據事實來做決定啦好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1060,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時32分）請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。主委，您其實有兩種身分，一個是國發會主委，你也是台積電官方的股東，所以問到台積電這個問題的話，我覺得你的角色是比較尷尬，一方面要配合政府政策，另外一方面要兼顧企業的獲利。所以我想問一下官方董事，有關於大家關注台積電議題的一些態度。第一個是，昨天傳出川普希望台積電去增加投資3,000億美金，最新的說法又變2,000億，你的了解是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的了解，目前台積電沒有討論過這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：台積電是沒有，但川普有期望嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是他的個人期望。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，你早上有這樣講。下周就有台積電董事會，您會去開嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我會去。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，現在如果直接在董事會裡面問你：川普要求台積電多投資2,000億美金，不曉得你的態度以及台積電的態度會是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我還是要看台積電的分析！"],["葉委員元之：您就是董事啊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：投資一定要分析，分析利弊、分析所有的一切，我等待他的分析。但是會不會討論，至少目前應該沒有在議題內。"],["葉委員元之：所以下周董事會，不會討論到台積電要不要去增加投資這個議題？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒辦法保證會不會有臨時的議題，但是至少目前是沒有，他昨天提出來嘛，還是要看台積電有沒有把它納入議題來討論。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，因為你是董事之一，而且你又是官方的代表……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是董事啊……"],["葉委員元之：你應該不是被動，你也是有一些主動權，所以才來請教你的態度。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不會，我沒辦法在董事會跟他們講：從媒體上聽到川普有這樣講，你要不要這樣做？那是不合規定的，還是要由經營團隊對經營的現況狀態提出評估。至於他要不要take這樣的想法，也是經營團隊做出決定……"],["葉委員元之：魏哲家董事長最新的說法是台積電目前投資1,650億美金……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：所以目前還是以這個態度啦！您說下周董事會沒有這個議題，但是不知道會不會忽然間有臨時提案，這是目前您掌握的狀況……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個是公司決定。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。","另外，我早上有看到你說，即便是232條款川普關稅加到100%，你覺得也沒問題，因為臺灣很有競爭力……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有說一定沒有問題！但是對我們的衝擊，相較別的國家來看，目前我們的衝擊還算是比較好的。"],["葉委員元之：那是因為別的國家半導體也要100%的狀況……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也是100%，然後多數沒有在美國設廠的……"],["葉委員元之：就是同樣條件情況之下，你認為我們有競爭力，是從競爭的角度，可是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我早上的說法是，我們在業界是領先的國家……"],["葉委員元之：我知道、我知道，對，我還沒問這問題！我的問題是說，你現在是用競爭的角度談這件事，問題是今天可能會產生兩個問題，第一個，如果232條款半導體關稅是100%的話，還是會壓縮到台積電的獲利，還是會啊！因為到時候品牌商有可能會叫台積電來分擔關稅所產生的成本，這是第一個問題。","第二個問題是，產業有沒有可能因為不想要付這100%，就直接就移到美國去？這也是有可能，如果移過去的話，會影響到國內的就業。","其實還有第三個問題，232條款影響的不是只有半導體產業，還有影響其他電子業，其他電子業是不是如您所講的在全球都是那麼樂觀？不曉得主委是怎麼看待這個事情？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：針對台積電的部分，因為台積電十幾年前就在美國奧勒岡州設廠，亞利桑那的第一廠也都蓋好了，已經符合川普零關稅的條件，我剛剛聽其他委員分享今天台積電股價是大漲，因為台積電關稅是零，他本身會更具競爭力。當然臺灣有一些企業已經在美國有設工廠的，由這次的過程看起來都有受惠！","另外，對於其他廠商，我今天早上也說明很多次，其實都做過座談會，當然那時候的關稅沒有到麼高，大家在談關稅是說只要是齊頭式的，如果競爭對手也是拉麼高的話，他們認為就競爭的角度，我們就有競爭力……"],["葉委員元之：主委對不起，因為時間有限。所以你認為232條款關稅就算再高，其實對台積電或是其他廠商來說是有利的？你的結論是這樣……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，你這個結論是不對的。"],["葉委員元之：因為你剛剛講說，他們在美國已經有廠，所以這不會受到影響。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我講的是相較哦！"],["葉委員元之：我知道、我知道。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：當你都在100%的時候，相較其他的地方，不是說100%就一定沒有……"],["葉委員元之：但我剛剛提的是他有沒有可能就更增加投資，造成國內……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是對台積電是沒有的……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，我沒有講完，他有沒有可能會因為產業不想被抽太多，直接移過去，甚至壓縮利潤，我剛剛講的是這個，但你沒有回答。","我最後再問一個問題，台積電最近有發生工程師竊取2奈米機密資料，昨天大家在討論有一個合作的日本廠商，是他們的晶片國家隊，所以我不知道現在賴政府，包括主委，您同時是國科會主委，本身也是台積電的官方董事，你對於日本有公司利用這種方式，可能疑似得到2奈米的機密資料，你的態度是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的態度是很清楚的，我第一個時間其實有通知台積電，請他們說明，因為我們希望能夠從此把門關起來。其實遇到問題，解決問題比較重要，先把這個問題解決掉，把門關好。台積電看起來已經做好了各種……因為這是他主動偵測，現在主要的問題，他們也在解決。就政府而言，檢調出動之後，國科會也進來，依據國安法的部分都進來了，相關權責單位也進來了，整個背後的犯案動機可能要經過檢調調查才知結果，我們現在可能很難影射說就是哪一家公司，要看當事人的犯案動機，經過偵查之後，應該會有個明朗的結果。"],["葉委員元之：所以你現在的態度就是先防弊，然後不要再讓這件事情再繼續發生；第二個是檢調介入。政府現在面對可能日本的公司疑似竊取了我們的機密，這件事情政府的態度是什麼？我不是針對台積電……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：政府的態度很清楚，這是一個國安的問題，所以我們會引用國安法來處理。"],["葉委員元之：你的意思是說……因為國安法是針對我們內部嘛，我現在是說政府對外，因為這是日本的公司，你們態度是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的態度很清楚……"],["葉委員元之：你不要講說對台積電態度，或者是說對犯案……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的態度剛才也講得很清楚，我們必須偵查清楚這個當事人犯案背後的動機，他背後是不是一定是日本人？其實我們現在是臆測。"],["葉委員元之：不知道？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是國與國的事情，我們必須把事情查得很清楚，然後再來……"],["葉委員元之：等查清楚……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在因為人都已經在檢調的掌握了，應該可以查清楚。"],["葉委員元之：等查清楚之後，如果是牽涉到國與國，你才會有一個比較強硬的態度出來，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該會依據事實來做決定啦！"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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兩週之前我們在問的這一些案子裡面 這個周老師涉及的案子裡面到現在這一些寫意的樣本 寫用在哪裡沒有人告訴我們耶甚至學生的名單都對不起來耶"},{"start":132.646,"end":149.762,"text":"這些事情難道不嚴重嗎為什麼到現在都沒有一個人給社會一個交代我們做研究是可以這樣做的嗎這些事情不是都要按部就班的嗎甚至申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作都是做研究最基本最基本要做的事情"},{"start":150.613,"end":179.488,"text":"是 謝謝委員我們在7月21號組成跨部會專案小組之後就分三個層面來清查第一個是全面的清查成州兩位老師那針對有特別總共幾案目前國科會跟相關部體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案涉及到從他任教以來民國九十年的案子那裡頭針對有特別同學或者是檢舉人特別有檢舉的"},{"start":180.188,"end":196.557,"text":"只有14案嗎14案的部分我們是實地查訪可是剛剛有報告的全面清查的部分我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8號之前把他們的清查結果報教育部所以這個部分是有同步在進行的"},{"start":197.017,"end":220.209,"text":"好那這個拜託我剛剛講的第一個這些案子裡面到底血用在哪裡啊怎麼會到現在叫學生抽血然後這些血沒有用在應該要核實的這個計畫裡面這件事情拜託一定要優先處理好嗎另外就是IRB這個我特別把當時台師大的倫理委員倫理審查委員會裡面的會議記錄找出來因為我覺得太荒謬了"},{"start":225.373,"end":234.781,"text":"一片空白會議記錄是一片空白然後呢這個主席然後所有出席的委員有沒有意見沒有意見全數通過我光是看到這個RB的審查過程我覺得不可思議可以長這樣嗎"},{"start":244.286,"end":268.666,"text":"我不知道是真的流於形式還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況就算他們送假的資料都還是有很多預防的機會才對啊因為我必須要說其實這個研究案我有看到有另外一個子計畫裡面有納入一家其他一個大學的醫學中心然後這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候認為教授收案只屬學生"},{"start":269.727,"end":295.736,"text":"不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意所以他們提出了質疑最後他們怎麼做他們把這個案子撤掉了也就是說有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB在審查過程他們有發現問題然後他們選擇撤案因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的結果台師大過了所以我覺得台師大IRB中心"},{"start":296.736,"end":301.501,"text":"是不是應該出來面對出來檢討這件事情非常嚴重"},{"start":306.834,"end":332.236,"text":"報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制"},{"start":332.796,"end":335.777,"text":"好 當然你們剛剛也說該開罰你們也開罰了該送刑事責任的你們也送了有一些造假的有一些違法的部分你們都已經在處理了但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習我最怕的是這件事情他們覺得不需要送但明明涉及很多未成年"},{"start":354.324,"end":361.573,"text":"甚至是學生甚至他們長期以來在全市的文化裡面長期慣性的把學生當成試驗的對象"},{"start":364.52,"end":386.482,"text":"這是我最擔心的所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖這樣更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位它要實際進到實質審查的功能這個拜託這個是教育部現在最重要最重要的責任不要讓國際上覺得哇台灣在做研究我們的高校環境是如此的糟糕"},{"start":388.124,"end":403.08,"text":"連這種基本的把關都做不到然後最後我本來要提一個臨時提案但是礙於時間我直接講就是我跟體育署也討論過了就是在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育這件事情因為我也很擔心說在"},{"start":404.101,"end":411.828,"text":"體育界裡面長期有一些基本的這種對於權勢的不認知或者是他們對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深導致於說他們把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去覺得說鐵血教育是對的覺得說我就是老師學生體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從絕對不是這樣嘛"},{"start":426.5,"end":446.052,"text":"所以這種文化一定要改善那也希望可以徹底的淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為所以我也希望在這邊具體建議教育部體育署接下來所有該上這種反霸凌教育的對象教練然後所有的體育環境裡面的作為師長的都應該要有這樣的認識好嗎好 這個拜託你們 謝謝好 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我們請鄭部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":18.956,"end":35.097,"text":"委員好來部長好辛苦了那我還是要先請教一下我們的這一個次長葉秉成今天早上你有接受記者的訪問你說啦葉秉成受調查請假達72天說這也是你的痛那我先請教一下這一個"},{"start":36.718,"end":64.547,"text":"部長這個信憑委員會是在5月21號成立這個專案的審查小組那葉市長在5月26號請假接受調查那現在已經延就是說兩個月到期之後有再延一個月那我想請教一下部長就是說這段時間那到底我們的這一個這個專案審查小組有開過幾次會了總共六次總共開過六次那是那個時間你再給我好嗎"},{"start":68.758,"end":84.398,"text":"那現在就是說會再延到8月22號,那8月22號算是Daylight嘛對不對?是那Daylight就是8月22號之前一定會有個結果出來是那請教一下那個部長,您說這是您的痛,那為什麼這個是您的痛勒?"},{"start":88.902,"end":118.04,"text":"我想一切當然民主法治的社會就是按照法令嘛所以我們當然希望能夠把它查清楚那只是從一個政務上的推動我當然會希望本來這個案情就是要依法來但是如果能夠有一些時效上能夠我想社會大眾也一直關心嘛但是回到源頭就是說因為調查小組跟調查性評委員會他們確實需要有許多東西許多的情節必須要更"},{"start":118.86,"end":141.887,"text":"更年輕然後造成社會上的一些一些胡同或者甚至一些不諒解這其實就是對我來講是一個蠻大的壓力因為這個是社會矚目要牽涉到市長那我也當然知道說教育部有要做一些迴避但是我自己認為當然一切依法進行按照程序來但是我也認為超過兩個月的時間太久了"},{"start":145.267,"end":159.499,"text":"太久了因為這件事情事發的時候不論是部長或是說院長都認為說這件事情要盡快調查出來那我不知道說這個過程是哪一端這個問題是怎麼樣那但是我個人認為這個"},{"start":161.901,"end":175.047,"text":"兩個月的時間甚至現在要到三個月的時間這其實對教育部的形象來講是一個傷害我覺得說部長這邊大概你要考量一下因為我也看到這一個當事人他也說這個在7月22號"},{"start":177.408,"end":202.786,"text":"要延期的時候他是最後一個他才知道他打電話去問他才知道的那他說這個教育部延期調查他自己完全被蒙在鼓裡他說這個痛他也很痛我是希望說這個部長能夠用同理心來對待這件事情你覺得很痛當事人也覺得很痛那我覺得在程序上面不曉得出了什麼樣的問題讓當事人會有這種感受"},{"start":205.797,"end":225.933,"text":"是 其實我對學生是相當不捨我覺得我們沒有好好的協助他走出來或者學校在處理過程在行政上還有許多可以精進的我想這都應該要來改善那這裡邊會後來又原來是上個月"},{"start":229.532,"end":250.162,"text":"28號就要有一個希望能夠有一個結果的同時事實上是姓評委員認為還有很多地方需要擬清包含當事人的一個約談而不是只是這個提供書面資料所以我想我們這個部分就尊重姓評委員他們也希望"},{"start":250.942,"end":278.024,"text":"專案這個調查小組能夠有更細緻的一些調查也希望能夠真正的對每一個當事人利害關係人都能夠有一個我覺得就是調查調查是一件事情但是你要去接觸這一個當事人這個受害人後續也很重要我覺得這一塊你們要去做好是那時間到我最後再問一下我們9月9號這個體育部要掛牌"},{"start":279.042,"end":291.548,"text":"是不是 那掛牌的地點在哪裡台大 台大體育館那我們以後的辦公室在哪裡以後的辦公室是在那一個"},{"start":295.375,"end":310.842,"text":"我們本部會在現在的體育大樓全民運動署跟產業科技師會在六張梨站旁邊有一個辦公大樓在那邊租用但是掛牌是在台大掛牌的儀式在台大"},{"start":311.782,"end":326.487,"text":"好 OK 那這個也預祝啦這個我也不知道部長是誰啦預祝掛牌順利那我剛才講的那個受害者當事人如何去接觸我覺得那是在程序之外我們就要不跟他去做的事情啦好 謝謝謝謝委員提醒 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汰舊換新等等那我覺得這些都是很正面的方向但是我必須要強調一件事情"},{"start":54.181,"end":68.708,"text":"那這次我們除了颱風之外然後接下來的水患那對台灣的這個農業影響非常大特別是對嘉義也是那再加上關稅未來的挑戰就是說農工上面整個嘉義縣都會遇到"},{"start":69.488,"end":84.648,"text":"算是前所未有的挑戰那你是我們國家的總規劃師包含這個國發會也是他是要做跨部會的協調我想請教當農民同時其實不只是農民有些農民他同時也是有一跟產業是有相關的農產業"},{"start":86.07,"end":98.627,"text":"他同時面對天災跟外銷訂單的衝擊我們現有的這個援助機制譬如說天然災害的救助還有關稅因應的這些貸款在程序上面是不是有整合的空間來去減輕這個農民奔波的負擔"},{"start":101.946,"end":121.147,"text":"特別我要強調是在災後重建最關鍵的天然災害的低利貸款那我們第一線的農民其實遇到一些實際的困難比方說辦法要在15天內附上金額固定的估價單可是災後的廠商雖然他們很想要趕快去做相關的升級但是這麼"},{"start":122.233,"end":149.638,"text":"找不到這些物料的價格在波動然後短的時間內要拿到這樣子的一張準確的估價單確實是有它的難度在我想這中間的落差國發會是不是可以發揮它的協調的專長來去協助一個可以解決地方的好政策因為如果執行上面的一些小瓶頸那讓人民感覺到不便那就很可惜了不知道主委對這邊有沒有什麼初步的想法"},{"start":150.058,"end":176.822,"text":"委員這個訊息非常重要可以看到您也很關心這個民眾那我這邊會去找那個負責的那個陳金德政委我會來跟他探討是不是能夠簡化程序那盡快的讓人民不要這樣跑農民這樣跑來跑去我們盡快可以怎麼樣能夠讓他們簡化這些程序讓他可以盡快得到他應該得到的協助"},{"start":178.603,"end":195.16,"text":"謝謝主委 我們盡快齁 趕快協調一下因為程序的這個簡化對我們這些農民朋友他們現在一方面又要擔心可能下週下下週會不會又有西南棄爐然後又擔心說那如果上面的這些程序沒有完備那怎麼辦 會不會因此"},{"start":196,"end":213.446,"text":"所以這個部分我還是希望主委趕快去來協調其實過去我們有相關的經驗莫拉克風災的時候那個時候的政府就有把這個高度的彈性展現出來所以我相信因時制宜的制度把它變成一個未來的一個處置的方式我也會建議大家看看因為現在在台南的前進指揮所是銅鑿廠商"},{"start":216.307,"end":242.94,"text":"對屋頂有三個價格讓民眾去選他就不要再去買車因為民眾自己去找很困難對就做好媒合的角色那大家就估價單也很簡易的就是你是哪一個也不要讓物價波動你就是三種價格什麼樣的服務就是把它全商統籌買所以我想說也許這個機制我也會請那個陳政委思考是不是把它放到那我再強調一次就是即時紓困上面那個主委謝謝你剛才的回應行政上面的彈性"},{"start":243.84,"end":262.661,"text":"那這個放寬這個申請訂金的時程壓力這些我還是一定要在這邊跟你反映那除此之外莫拉克的經驗是這樣子他這個放寬災損證明的認定那個時候的主管軍官允許因為事實困難沒有辦法取得官方所在證明的農民可以檢據照片"},{"start":263.542,"end":289.352,"text":"化製廠處理單據等等的替代型文件就是這個彈性過去是有的那另外一方面就是他們有延長申請這個救助的這個期限那其實上次農業部部長來我們這個嘉義看災的時候已經有談過也確實已經延遲過一次但是我想加上西南氣流的這一次在上週到上週為止都是那下週可能又有"},{"start":290.092,"end":304.774,"text":"那這樣子的狀況之下我是希望說這種延長救助的申請期限未來就我們在反應之前就可以先納入考量因為這是連續連續受災我們過去整個7月變成說整個7月都是在"},{"start":305.515,"end":330.203,"text":"救災然後接下來就是在辦理這些災害的救助這是非常對於農民朋友來講是很大的負擔所以我還是在強調這個行政的簡化這個是一定要做的那也謝謝你剛才的回應那特別講到15天內附上這個金額固定的估價但這個是很多人反映的這個麻煩主委務必跟政委回去好好的演講"},{"start":334.503,"end":359.199,"text":"好 謝謝最後再補充一點我看到關稅上面的這幾天的變化因為他是起起伏伏我知道說今天這個半導體來講對我國來講那其實是一個算是比較好一點的訊息有些地方是得到豁免但是我還是要強調說我國除了科技業之外還有其他的工業農業那怎麼樣能夠規劃其他產業能夠"},{"start":363.622,"end":391.499,"text":"一同的往前走均衡台灣裡面很大的一部分就是不是獨厚一個產業怎麼樣把這些經濟上面的果實來分享給其他因為現在我們嘉義雲林台南高雄屏東很多農民他沒有享受到這個高科技產業的果實但是已經遇到這種天然的災害所以在稅率稅賦上面我們怎麼樣去做好的一個分擔讓急需受到幫助急需受到援助的這些災民農民朋友們"},{"start":392.459,"end":403.429,"text":"這是整個國家的發展藍圖這個地方我還是希望這個國發會可以來好好思考一下怎麼樣把均衡把利益均衡這樣子好 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全面清查所以您有要求全面清查所以體育署發文回應我說不用全面清查您不知道"},{"start":214.545,"end":242.507,"text":"等一下 那個我們 委員部長所以您不知道體育署發函給我說只要清查陳舟兩位教授涉及血液樣本的其他都不用清查而且還拿出你們的會議結論說是因為那個跨部會的會議因為跨部會有衛福部在嘛所以體育署你要不要解釋一下為什麼運科資源那個部分只要清查血液樣本 周陳兩位教授的血液樣本的計畫"},{"start":243.168,"end":267.026,"text":"包委員我想這個是我們在跟委辦溝通之間我們大概認知上有一個落差啦我們全部都有清查不是只有學藝樣本的不是只有學藝樣本等一下那你給我的公文是在是在呼嚨我嗎我們以為委辦的這部分的是根據7月21是指陳中慶那你要不要先告訴我你給我的本辦的公文你看過嗎"},{"start":268.927,"end":294.292,"text":"呃有看過那你裡面是怎麼說運科資源計畫不用清查的包委員我們是全面清查但是針對不是你有清查的話三天之內把東西給我喔沒問題因為你上次已經在我問就是舉重選手的時候當場說謊然後我去跟你索資好久好久都不給最後的資料證明你說謊我們沒有說謊這件事情我先不追究"},{"start":297.193,"end":313.078,"text":"那我追究的這件事情你給我的運科支援計畫你公文要我現在拿給你還是我們現在給大家看你的公文要不要我幫你念一下我們在回覆委辦的部分我們對要需要回覆給委辦的這個認知上我們的確是有落差我們不要講文字遊戲我們看公文你現在講的我已經不相信你了"},{"start":317.159,"end":333.763,"text":"我念一下 你給我的公文說運科資源競技運動訓練署服務性質以競技選手和運動團隊為服務對象主要的目的是提升選手的訓練品質運動表現不作為學術研究對象主要的目的是提升選手的訓練品質運動表現"},{"start":336.044,"end":347.058,"text":"不涉及學術發表或發展新醫療技術屬於運動訓練而非人體研究所以最後就說這個東西不屬於人體研究法"},{"start":348.393,"end":374.393,"text":"我就是問你這個計畫是不是屬於人體研究法你跟我說他不涉及研究是服務選手也沒有出版我不管你有沒有清查我懷疑你現在講的事情是真的你給我的功能是這樣而且拿部長的跨部會我看到那個會議記錄完全沒有討論到你也沒有提出來說運科計畫也沒有問衛福部就是說到底這是不是適用人體研究法"},{"start":374.693,"end":385.279,"text":"你給我的公文就說這個不是研究沒有出版所以不是人體研究法規範範圍那我今天有四個證據說它根本就是人體研究第一個你們運科資源計畫的簡報你們自己的給所有要申請人辦的簡報的PPT"},{"start":396.946,"end":424.371,"text":"比較科技部教育部高教師教育部體育署告訴大家這裡比較好申請因為國科會那裡體育老師比較難申請到下面就寫適合申請研究訓練導向效果應用實務升等評鑑還告訴大家這個可以把教學成果跟個人升等請問體育領域的教師誰要升等就是老師大學教授升等不就是等於"},{"start":424.531,"end":440.083,"text":"你鼓勵他用他的學生來做這些體育研究嗎這第一個這就講是研究跟你給我的公文不符合好這位陳中慶現在鼎鼎大名就申請你們的東西你們跟我們說他沒有做戳板"},{"start":440.943,"end":450.209,"text":"剛剛你回答柯之恩教授怎麼回答的你說是這個運科計畫沒有在做出版是陳教授自己拿去發表違背運科計畫的宗旨我要講你又當場是說錯還是說謊"},{"start":456.393,"end":461.434,"text":"人家給你們的計畫裡面一開始最後一點本計畫的結果並透過投稿參加國際相關研討會發表國際期間發表這是給你們的預期這個我都寫過的這種研究計畫預期成果欸109年得到你們45萬欸體育署早就知道他有發表剛剛跟柯之恩說是陳教授個人違反你們這個計畫你剛剛不是跟柯之恩說謊要不然就是你就是沒有能力知道你們體育署內部的狀況嗎"},{"start":485.999,"end":515.179,"text":"好 等一下你先聽我講完計畫名稱來看你給我的公文說這不是研究各位在座有很多當過研究生拿過博士學位你也是博士學位這裡面的確部分計畫是進行賽後技術分析下面這個介入對青少年跆拳道好 周教授這邊又有一個強化訓練女足選手這個因為不是血液你也不清查下面這個介入少棒選手介入"},{"start":516.801,"end":526.077,"text":"衛福部人體計畫相關的法介入就是針對人體的身心理就是這是在下一個下一頁喔"},{"start":527.395,"end":539.384,"text":"下一頁這個為什麼下一頁不出來下一頁下一頁陳中慶就是這位他給你們的計畫書有分組實驗實驗組對照組有人要做一個離心組的什麼肌肉訓練然後有研究假設而且是在會影響選手生理對肌肉傷害的效果這麼明確有分組實驗這不就是實驗法比較組對照組看"},{"start":556.176,"end":579.278,"text":"傷害運動表現受傷的情況的差異這個不是人體實驗好 這是第四個證據來 衛福部可不可以過來一下衛福部您是司長嘛這個人體研究法是你們管請問你有介入有分組實驗會影響選手生理表現的是否不適用人體研究法"},{"start":581.795,"end":595.709,"text":"就目前看到有介入分組實驗然後還有再去講的是那個影響的那些因子的話他是做人體研究所以就適用人體研究法嗎好那你請回國科會"},{"start":597.842,"end":618.449,"text":"國科會副主委你應該很熟喔這些計畫可不可以不接受可不可以不受人體研究法規範不申請IRB跟REC審查絕對不行嘛國科會所有人都知道嘛這個法已經通過十幾年了所以這一類型的您聽到了一定要有IRB一定要有REC對不對"},{"start":620.089,"end":632.297,"text":"那部長我簡單問您我想您一定很知道作為高教出身這種介入可不可以不經倫理審查就執行不行那我再往下一頁我要告訴大家為什麼這個運科計畫全面清查很重要不是只有血液有問題我們再繼續看下一頁這個是你們的運動計畫的申請的"},{"start":649.332,"end":664.534,"text":"表裡面的授冊對象跟我們國科會不一樣耶都知道是誰耶訪寮高中女子排球隊好 我們往下看台師大女足也有不是血液的 是其他的 肌肉的國小棒球隊女高中女籃"},{"start":666.099,"end":689.273,"text":"這是未成年選手而且他們都是我們的體育學生他申請的時候就綁定受試者這完全沒有監督機制你們的訪評是沒有效果的針對未成年衛福部就知道是特別脆弱的就是說是一定要絕對要送IRB的然後我們都還沒有提到裡面的權勢關係是計畫主持人跟教練很好嗎這個全部都是據說可能很有問題的居然"},{"start":695.276,"end":720.654,"text":"你不清查 你剛剛說有清查 三天之內請你送給我下一頁我要講的事情是你們的審查委員開的會前面就說不是不知道IRB耶110年討論到有關IRB或REC雖不強制要求計劃申請 但必要取得這個是比較久以前署長說這跟你無關112年署長 是你當署長吧"},{"start":722.853,"end":727.635,"text":"臨時動議提案有關本計劃申請需IRB案委員要求要討論委員都知道這跟IRB有關結果決議是什麼應申請本計劃IRB非強制規定但未符合未來趨勢法都通過了還有未來趨勢請本計劃主持人先行與體育署溝通未來慢慢推行"},{"start":746.644,"end":765.777,"text":"萬萬推行為什麼這件事要跟體育署溝通要求送審要不要送IRB要跟體育署溝通溝通到現在直到出事了告訴我有清查是體育署內長期反彈擔心一清查就沒有人過得了關嗎在下一頁所以我今天就三個要求第一個"},{"start":767.296,"end":781.514,"text":"申請的時候就綁定受試者這些運動選手是否有強迫受試情形大量未成年參與是否應該取得監護人同意這一整塊教育部下面的體育署"},{"start":782.395,"end":802.164,"text":"公文都還跟我跟妳現在講的不一樣公文跟我說這不符合人理現在妳告訴我妳有清查我要相信妳的公文還是相信妳現在講的話要求專案小組全面清查過往及現在執行的運科支援計畫那兩位周誠還有很多非協議的運科支援計畫還有其他的小學生的下一頁"},{"start":804.912,"end":822.777,"text":"第二點教育部要跟衛福部合作院科資源計畫下面都是運動選手學生你的審查機制跟流程而且我要講的事情我們跟你要報告因為依照你這個教育部運動發展基金會的給錢要點第17條運動報告成果要上網沒有一個上網我們跟你要拿不出半個報告給我我們國科會哪個不是都要上網的"},{"start":832.119,"end":848.967,"text":"那如果早點上網這兩位的周成兩位也有申請他的這個事情不就早就更早能夠報出來嗎所以這個第二點要求第三點教育部請監督體育署體育署居然給我們這種公文剛剛部長都說這個當然是是說是"},{"start":851.528,"end":876.851,"text":"人體研究法他居然可以獨排眾議也不用詢問衛福部會議也不提出來就自己跟我說這個沒有研究這個沒有出版剛剛講的他們內部都知道我真的覺得到現在還有誠心人跟我們說他們沒有辦法站出來這涉及到選手的評估建立第三方公正之運動選手受試者保護中心"},{"start":878.072,"end":887.158,"text":"回來講 我要先講 我認為運科這個部分它真的宗旨很好也的確的協助不少選手但是不代表可以是法外之地傷害選手不考慮他們在教練跟主持人的權勢合作下沒有說不的權利所以請教育部監督體育署衛福部"},{"start":902.869,"end":916.834,"text":"這三項一個月內處理並向本席書名報告為什麼是一個月不要告訴我說運動部要成立了還有一個月距離運動部9月9號成立前今天8月8號剛好有一個月"},{"start":917.774,"end":935.195,"text":"你們體育署出的樓子人家國科會亡羊補牢 你亡羊還不補牢是不是在遮蔽 是不是在包庇你那個院科資源計畫的管理人剛剛告訴大家說 喔 這裡喔 來申請就是你 請問您是哪個大學出來的署長"},{"start":936.311,"end":960.428,"text":"包委員我是國立體育大學那他也是國立體育大學我不知道為什麼他到現在都沒出來吹哨我也覺得很奇怪他們心知肚明會議中還討論了IRB還說慢慢跟體育署你不用跟我講了上次你在台上說謊我還沒有跟你追究後來要了兩三禮拜都不給所資然後把責任推給別人那今天部長我要的是部長"},{"start":961.289,"end":966.241,"text":"部長一個月內可以處理並向本席書面報告嗎在提部成立前教育部要把這個這個破的洞好好的補給才能對大家交代"},{"start":971.698,"end":990.687,"text":"可以跟委員補充報告我們現在運科的所有的研究現在是全面停止執行我們一定要全面的來停止執行可是他給我的公文要不要我等一下給部長一份談論我想委員剛才的這個停止執行三項我們非常清楚我一定會來"},{"start":993.988,"end":1018.151,"text":"部長最嚴重的事情是因為有博士的在教育部下的這些計畫都沒有要求強制做IRB剛剛師大在這裡那個是做了IRB通過之後執行出問題對不對沒有遵守申請所以他連申請都沒有申請耶衛福部聽到能接受嗎這麼多未成年申請的時候就知道是未成年的體育選手"},{"start":1019.452,"end":1043.36,"text":"這我想我們來改善這都是脆弱族群因為IRB一個很重要的因素是當事人一定要同意不是改善了這個嚴重很大人家審查委員都說應該要了結果結論居然是說請他們跟體育署慢慢好好討論我不知道體育署內部是出了什麼問題可以這樣子做那就一個月內處理跟本席書面報告好嗎可以謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時7分）謝謝召委，有請鄭部長，國科會蘇副主委，還有衛福部劉司長。"],["主席：三位官員請備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：等一下，我的投影片是不是有點問題？下一頁，好。","部長午安。7月15號我參與召開的記者會，揭露師大女足案強迫抽血、強迫實驗卻被輕放的體育亂象，半個多月來到現在，有關校園霸凌的部分，師大已經重新完成校園霸凌的審議，研究倫理的部分，你們現在是有教育部主持的跨部會專案小組決議清查中。因為此案涉及教育部、國科會跟衛福部，所以我現在要跟幾位釐清一下研究倫理的部分。","我們來看一下，陳忠慶跟周台英涉及的案件有三種：第一個是國科會的計畫；第二個是體育署補助的運科支援計畫；第三個是其他自提的或產學計畫。我們可以看到，第一個跟第三個都有處理了。第一個國科會的計畫，今天我們看到，他針對所有的體育相關的計畫全面清查，614個案子涉及人體的有293件，他們優先處理陳、周兩人，30件裡面抽血的有28件。所以，就我來看，國科會是有在亡羊補牢全面清查，可是現在我有疑問的是，第三個也處理了，第二部分體育署的運科支援計畫，只有處理涉及血液樣本的計畫，這是目前我們看到的情況。","我也要講一下，我詢問體育署，7月21號我發函要求體育署，全面清查所有運科支援計畫是不是有違反人體研究法，可是，這邊放的這個文是體育署回復的，7月29號體育署回復我說，因為7月21號跨部會會議的指示，所以只有清查運科下面運用血液樣本的，就是這兩位教授下面運用血液樣本的，所以體育署是拿教育部跨部會的結果不理會立委的要求。這件事情，部長，您知情嗎？國科會全面清查體育相關的所有計畫六百多案，部長，您知道嗎？體育署拿你們那天跨部會的會議說，不需要全面清查，只要清查周、陳兩位用的血液樣本的研究。部長，您知情嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，當時我在世界大學運動會，我在德國的時候，我已經馬上……"],["范委員雲：好，您知情還是不知情？"],["鄭部長英耀：聽到師大女足案這一個，我當下就已經要求運科中心，所有有關人體實驗的相關研究全面停止、全面清查，那這一個剛才委員……"],["范委員雲：您有要求全面清查？所以體育署發文回應我說不用全面清查，您不知道？"],["廖司長高賢：報告……"],["范委員雲：等一下，我先問部長。所以您不知道體育署發函給我說，只要清查陳、周兩位教授涉及血液樣本的，其他都不用清查，而且還拿出你們的會議結論，說是因為那個跨部會的會議，因為跨部會有衛福部在。所以，體育署要不要解釋一下，為什麼運科支援那個部分只要清查血液樣本，周、陳兩位教授的血液樣本的計畫？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想這是我們在跟委辦溝通之間，我們大概認知上有落差。我們全部都有清查，不是只有血液樣本的，我們全部清查了……"],["范委員雲：不是只有血液樣本？等一下……"],["鄭署長世忠：但是回復給委辦的，我們以為只要給血液的。"],["范委員雲：那你給我的公文，是在糊弄我嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：不是，我們以為委辦的這部分，根據7月21日是指陳忠慶以及周台英教練的。"],["范委員雲：那你要不要先告訴我，你給本辦的公文，你看過嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：有，有看過。"],["范委員雲：那你裡面是怎麼說運科支援計畫不用清查的？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們是全面清查，但是針對回復給委員的部分是陳忠慶跟周……"],["范委員雲：不是，你有清查的話，三天之內把東西給我。"],["鄭署長世忠：沒問題。"],["范委員雲：因為你上次已經在我問舉重選手的時候當場說謊，然後我去跟你索資，好久好久都不給，最後的資料證明你說謊。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們沒有說謊，是認知上有落差。"],["范委員雲：那件事情我先不追究，那我追究的這件事情，你給我的運科支援計畫，你的公文要我現在拿給你，還是我們現在給大家看？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，就是我們的意思是說……"],["范委員雲：你的公文要不要我幫你唸一下？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們在回復委辦的部分，我們對需要回復給委辦的這個認知上，我們的確是有落差，但是我們的確有全面清查了……"],["范委員雲：我們不要玩文字遊戲，我們看公文，你現在講的我已經不相信你了。","我唸一下，你給我的公文說，運科支援競技運動訓練屬服務性質，以競技選手和運動團隊為服務對象，主要目的是提升選手的訓練品質與運動表現，不作為學術研究用途。主要的目的是提升選手的訓練品質與運動表現，不涉及學術發表或發展新醫療技術，屬於運動訓練服務而非「人體研究」，所以最後就是說，這個東西不屬於人體研究法。","我就是問你，這個計畫是不是屬於人體研究法？你跟我說他不涉及研究，是服務選手，也沒有出版。我不管你有沒有清查，我懷疑你現在講的事情是真的。你給我的公文是這樣，而且拿部長的跨部會會議，我看了那個會議紀錄完全沒有討論到，你也沒有把運科計畫提出來，也沒有問衛福部到底這是不是適用人體研究法。你給我的公文就說這個不是研究，沒有出版，所以不是人體研究法的規範範圍。","我今天有四個證據，說他根本就是人體研究。第一個，你們運科支援計畫的簡報，你們自己給所有要申請的人辦的簡報的PPT，比較科技部、教育部高教司以及教育部體育署的研究計畫，告訴大家這裡比較好申請，因為國科會那裡，體育老師比較難申請到。下面就寫適合申請的是研究或訓練導向；成果應用則是實務升等評鑑；還告訴大家，這個可以把教學成果跟個人升等途徑相結合。請問，體育領域的教師誰要升等？就是大學教授。升等不就是等於鼓勵他用他的學生來做這些體育研究嗎？這是第一個，這個就講是研究了，跟你給我的公文不符合。這位陳忠慶現在鼎鼎大名，就申請你們的東西，你們跟我們說：他沒有做出版。剛剛你怎麼回答柯志恩教授的，你說：運科計畫沒有在做出版，是陳教授自己拿去發表，違背運科計畫的宗旨。我要講你又當場，是說錯？還是說謊？人家給你們的計畫裡面一開始在最後一點「本計畫的結果，並透過投稿參加國際相關研討會發表或國際期刊發表」，這是給你們的預期，我都寫過這種研究計畫預期成果，109年得到你們補助45萬，體育署早就知道他有發表，剛剛跟柯志恩說是陳教授個人違反你們這個計畫，你剛剛不是跟柯志恩說謊，要不然就是你沒有能力知道體育署內部的狀況嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員……"],["范委員雲：等一下，你先聽我講完。來看計畫名稱，你給我的公文說這不是研究，在座各位有很多當過研究生、拿過博士學位，你也是博士學位，這裡面的確部分計畫是進行賽後技術分析；下面一個介入對青少年跆拳道；周教授這邊又有一個強化訓練女足選手，因為不是血液，你也不清查；下面少棒選手之介入，衛福部人體研究法就是針對相關人體生、心理的介入；下一個陳忠慶給你們的計畫書有分組實驗組、對照組，要做離心阻力的肌肉訓練、有研究假設，而且是會影響選手生理對肌肉傷害的效果，這麼明確有分組實驗，這不就是實驗法採比較組、對照組看運動表現受傷情況的差異，這個不是人體實驗？這是第四個證據。","衛福部可不可以過來一下？衛福部，您是司長，人體研究法是你們管，請問你有介入、有分組實驗、會影響選手生理表現的計畫，是否不適用人體研究法？"],["劉司長越萍：就目前看到有介入、分組實驗，還有再去講影響的那些因子的話，他是做人體研究。"],["范委員雲：所以適用人體研究法嘛，好，你請回。","國科會副主委，你應該很熟，這些計畫可不可以不接受、不受人體研究法規範、不申請IRB跟REC審查？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：報告委員，不行。"],["范委員雲：絕對不行嘛！國科會所有人都知道，這個法已經通過十幾年了。所以這一類型的，您聽到了一定要有IRB、一定要有REC。","部長，我簡單問您，我想您一定知道，作為高教出身，這種介入可不可以不經倫理審查就執行？"],["鄭部長英耀：不行。"],["范委員雲：我要告訴大家，為什麼這個運科計畫全面清查很重要，不是只有血液有問題，這個是你們運動計畫申請表裡面的受測對象跟國科會不一樣，都知道是誰，枋寮高中女子排球隊，還有臺師大女足也有不是血液的，是其他肌肉的，另外國小棒球隊、高中女籃是未成年選手，而且他們都是我們的體育學生，他申請的時候就綁定受試者，這完全沒有監督機制，針對未成年你們的訪評是沒有效果的，衛福部就知道特別脆弱的對象是絕對要送IRB的，然後我們都還沒有提到裡面的權勢關係是計畫主持人跟教練很好嗎？這個全部都是可能很有問題的，居然你不清查，你剛剛說有清查，3天之內請你送給我。","我要講的事情是你們審查委員開的會，不是不知道IRB，110年討論到「有關IRB或REC審查，雖不強制要求計畫申請，但必要取得」這個是比較久以前，署長說這跟你無關；112年是你當署長吧？臨時動議提案有關本計畫申請須IRB一案，委員要求要討論，委員都知道這跟IRB有關，結果決議是什麼？「因申請本計畫IRB非強制規定，但為符合未來趨勢」，法都通過了還有未來趨勢，「請本計畫主持人先行與體育署溝通，未來慢慢推行」為什麼這件事要跟體育署溝通？要不要送IRB要跟體育署溝通，溝通到現在直到出事了告訴我有清查，是體育署內部長期反彈，擔心一清查就沒有人過得了關嗎？所以今天我就3個要求：第一點，申請的時候就綁定受試者，這些運動選手是否有強迫受試情形？大量未成年參與，是否應該取得監護人同意？這一整塊教育部下的體育署，公文現在都還跟我、跟你講的不一樣，公文跟我說這不符合人體研究，現在你告訴我，你有清查。我要相信你的公文，還是相信你現在講的話？要求專案小組全面清查過往及現在執行的運科支援計畫，兩位周、陳及很多非血液的運科支援計畫，還有其他小學生的。第二點，教育部要跟衛福部合作，研議運科支援計畫的審查機制跟流程，這都是運動選手的學生，而且我要講的是我們跟你要報告，因為依照教育部運動發展基金補助運動科學支援競技運動作業要點第十七條，運動報告成果要上網公告，沒有一個上網，我們跟你要，拿不出半個報告給我，國科會哪個不要上網的，如果早點上網，周、陳兩位也有申請，這個事情不就更早能夠報出來嗎？所以第二點要求。第三點，教育部請監督體育署，體育署居然給我們這種公文，剛剛部長都說這當然適用人體研究法，他居然可以獨排眾議，也不用詢問衛福部、會議也不提出來，就自己跟我說這個沒有研究用途、這個沒有出版。剛剛講的他們內部都知道，我真的覺得到現在還有陳情人跟我們說他們沒有辦法站出來，這涉及到選手評估建立第三方公正之運動選手受試者保護中心。","我要先講，我認為運科支援計畫宗旨真的很好，也的確協助不少選手，但是不代表可以是法外之地傷害選手，不考慮他們在教練跟主持人的權勢合作下沒有說不的權利。所以請教育部監督體育署，偕同衛福部將這三項要求一個月內處理，並向本席書面報告。為什麼是一個月？不要告訴我說運動部要成立了，距離運動部9月9號成立前，今天8月8號剛好有一個月。你們體育署出的簍子，人家國科會亡羊補牢，你亡羊還不補牢，是不是在遮蔽？是不是在包庇？運科支援計畫管理人剛剛告訴大家說來申請，就是你，請問署長，您是哪個大學出來的？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我是國立體育大學。"],["范委員雲：他也是國立體育大學，我不知道為什麼他到現在都沒出來吹哨？我也覺得很奇怪，他們心知肚明。會議中還討論了IRB，還說慢慢跟體育署……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，那位主持人是臺師大的教授……"],["范委員雲：你不用跟我講了，上次你在臺上說謊，我還沒有跟你追究，後來要了兩、三個禮拜不給索資，把責任推給別人。我要部長，一個月內可以處理，並向本席書面報告嗎？在體育部成立前，教育部要把這個破洞好好地補齊，才能對大家交代啦。"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，跟委員也補充報告，我們現在運科所有的研究是全面停止執行，我們一定要全面來……"],["范委員雲：停止執行，可是他給我的公文，要不要我等一下給部長一份看看？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想委員剛剛提醒3項，我們非常清楚……"],["范委員雲：有沒有清查？"],["鄭部長英耀：我一定會在一個月……"],["范委員雲：部長，最嚴重的事情是因為有博士在教育部下的這些計畫，都沒有要求強制做IRB，剛剛師大在這裡，那個是做了IRB通過之後執行出問題，對不對？沒有遵守申請。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：這個甚至連申請都沒有申請，衛福部聽到能接受嗎？這麼多未成年，申請的時候就知道是未成年的體育選手。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，所以我們來改善。"],["范委員雲：這些都是脆弱族群。"],["鄭部長英耀：因為IRB一個很重要的精神是當事人一定要同意。"],["范委員雲：部長，不是改善，這個嚴重很大，審查委員都說應該要了，結果結論居然是說請他們跟體育署慢慢、好好討論。我不知道體育署內部是出了什麼問題？可以這樣做。就1個月內處理，並提供給本席書面報告，好嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["范委員雲：謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的質詢，官員請回座。","現在先處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案，共計1案，請宣讀臨時提案。","為因應人工智慧科技快速發展，提升我國青少年AI素養與應用能力，請政府積極推動高中生AI工具普及與教學，作為我國培育未來AI應用人才之關鍵基礎，並朝向打造台灣為「全球最會使用AI的國家」之政策目標努力。","請教育部會同國家科學及技術委員會、數位發展部及其他相關機關，於三個月內，完成「高中階段AI教育推動成效評估」、「學校數位落差影響評估」以及於年底前完成「AI素養學習指引」，並將相關內容公開發布，以作為後續政策調整與資源配置依據。","另請教育部研議建立常設性推動小組，負責規劃高中階段AI工具與教學資源的長期推動機制，持續提升AI教育內容之實務應用性、與時俱進性，並確保偏鄉與資源不足學校之可近性，以落實教育公平，強化青少年之數位韌性與未來競爭力。","提案人：羅廷瑋　　葛如鈞　　葉元之　　萬美玲　　劉書彬"],["主席：好，謝謝。請問提案委員或各位委員有無補充說明或意見？（無）好。","請問部長有無補充說明？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提案。我想在3個月內，有關「高中階段AI教育推動成效評估」跟「學校數位落差影響評估」，我們可以在時限內完成。另外，針對「AI素養學習指引」，是不是能夠給予一個比較寬裕的時間，在年底前完成？就是這三項內容的公布，是不是讓我們在「AI素養學習指引」加6個字「於年底前完成」？做這樣一個補充。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。我想如果委員沒有問題的話，我們就照修正意見通過。各提案如果有委員補簽，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄。","接著繼續質詢，請李坤城委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163418","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b95dea13419290b097789cec5dbd9ef065e4ff6bd0191219aea64db3ebae0f41b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:53:40 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有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":20.882,"end":44.885,"text":"好部長辛苦了我們今天是要來討論這個中小學的教室人力不足的一個問題那最近我的辦公室其實接到很多很多的陳情喔可以應該嚴格上有上百件都是跟校事會議有關那這一位呢是今天特別早上在我的臉書上留言的一位代理教師喔"},{"start":45.365,"end":65.195,"text":"那他因為被家長濫訴那不僅是要出席這個刑事的訴訟那同時呢還有這個校事會議那目前呢他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果其實身心俱疲他還要準備可能自己本身的教學的教材等等那我想這個過程當中其實他們"},{"start":67.296,"end":86.991,"text":"除了前線的這些教師在跟我反應之外我覺得已經是達到了有求救這樣子的一個訊號那我想校師會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的一個權益那要保障這個校園當中的一些秩序但是呢我們現在看到也許"},{"start":88.973,"end":105.635,"text":"過程或者是制度上的不夠清楚跟不夠公正也引起了在校園尤其是在教學端的寒蟬效應我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看怎麼樣能夠來往比較好的方向去解決"},{"start":107.113,"end":120.976,"text":"好 那我想這個部分我們可以看到這個是從新聞的資料上面顯示那整體的一個案件是每一年都在增加但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%但沒有具體事證的高達36%但還有更在進行當中的也高達了61%點多那我想這個教學意見的不同 親師的溝通有落差"},{"start":134.259,"end":151.103,"text":"甚至只要一點點小小的事情只要有人申訴他可能就馬上會啟動所謂的這個校式會議那初步來講其實他是沒有所謂的分流的一個處理那甚至有老師直接在跟我們反應他說是不是因為這樣人心惶惶我其實就不敢再"},{"start":154.324,"end":177.779,"text":"我的這個整個教學的過程當中我不敢創新不敢嘗試甚至還有老師跟我們說難道我在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎我想請教一下這個教育部我們有沒有可能在校事會議當中可以先初步的建立審查的機制那分不同的類型採取不同的分析的處理"},{"start":180.435,"end":206.624,"text":"跟委員報告他本來就是以學校就有一個先初步的一個審查但是因為學校確實因為整個這樣一個氛圍就讓學校變成所有的不管輕重或者是實與否就都先進入就直接進入到校事調查我想這也是我們這一年來校事會議裡邊我們這一年來收集到很多第一線上的不管校長老師"},{"start":207.904,"end":208.785,"text":"所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議馬上就進入調查"},{"start":238.784,"end":263.735,"text":"也就是說部長我們已經意識到就是學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題我們都已經我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都在反映第一線老師曾經反映過給我們的那我也會提出我的一些建議喔好再來很多的這個調查的案件當中其實老師沒有被完整的告知到底他自己被指控的內容是什麼"},{"start":264.295,"end":291.136,"text":"那甚至有人是到了現場才發現說我只有一個小時能夠月卷同時在一個小時當中有時候他的資料他被調查的這些資料是去識別化甚至高達上百頁一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了怎麼能夠看完這些所謂的這些被指控的一些內容那我們是不是能夠要求這個調查報告應該要完整的告知這個當事人才能夠保障"},{"start":292.698,"end":306.056,"text":"讓就是被申訴的這些老師他有一個答辯的準備或者是說他有閱覽的一個權利這個部分我們是不是可以來嚴理增訂這樣子的一個部分提供給其他在學校第一現場的人"},{"start":307.312,"end":321.177,"text":"我想這是應該的因為任何一個民主法這個社會裡面我們本來就不希望延緩任何一個這個好等於說他沒有犯錯你不應該要所以目前我們是沒有這樣子的一個機制對不對適當的這個等於說他的權益應該要受維護我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來在整個流程裡面我剛才跟委員講了"},{"start":330.02,"end":345.863,"text":"因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡面看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個"},{"start":346.243,"end":375.402,"text":"那我們得到了這個部長的這個算是正面的一個回應了那接下來我想要問一下就是很多的學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的那有很多人跟我們反映說這個學校的這個調查的委員是校長指定甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員那有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長來做審查甚至還有人他是教"},{"start":376.703,"end":393.875,"text":"國文的但是他卻要被地理老師來做審查您覺得這樣子合理嗎是不是可以有所謂的這個地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位我們來進行所謂的抽籤選任建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制這個您同意嗎"},{"start":398.312,"end":412.861,"text":"確實我們也發現有一些本來我們希望利益良善希望不要放縱也不要冤枉所以有一個更客觀的社會學者專家團體教育部也有這樣的一個事前委員的真人培訓"},{"start":416.884,"end":430.935,"text":"調查委員的庫爾是由地方縣市教育局他上網去篩選三到五倍的人選然後把這個人選名單再交給這個學校學校校長來挑三個"},{"start":432.116,"end":448.305,"text":"我想這個不可否認的其實在教學現場我們碰到的這些來跟我們申訴的這些老師他所看到的這些問題包含就是這些調查的委員形成一條龍的作業變成他們沒有任何的"},{"start":449.225,"end":476.362,"text":"所謂的利益的迴避的問題那等於就是說一直同樣的都是這一群人甚至他們也有一些是完全沒有所謂的法證訓練的然後甚至也沒有在學校擔任過教職經驗他也被納入在這個所謂的調查的委員當中喔那我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面包含這個調查委員的資格那麼我想有很多的爭議喔"},{"start":477.162,"end":501.471,"text":"不管是校事會議當中我們看到像是性評也好 霸凌也好學校有很多的部分在處理校事會議變成是球員兼裁判那這個部分其實也難免就會流於讓很多的老師會覺得我自己今天要進入到校事會議要被調查的過程當中他感覺是被凌遲的這個您同意嗎"},{"start":502.401,"end":523.35,"text":"我想確實有一些案例我們也包含我個人也有一些老師直接把這個像我這個反應或者說投訴我們其實對一直在希望說這個制度裡面一定要看怎麼樣來修改一個真正無妄誤種誤種的這樣的一個讓不好的老師我們什麼時候可以修改"},{"start":524.644,"end":543.14,"text":"剛剛我們講的這幾條什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的一個幫助跟支持因為他們其實有的還是非常的有教學熱忱我們一直不斷的在講說不管是任何國中小現在的教師的缺額人力的不足的確也形成最大的一個問題其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益"},{"start":546.598,"end":563.175,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想年底之前我們一定會有一個比較希望能夠更好的一個這個方向來修訂也就是說這個它真的是造成已經造成第一線上的一些老師的工作世氣跟教協上的干擾"},{"start":563.615,"end":578.357,"text":"我們直接講到老師在被調查的期間他我剛剛說了他可能還要備課他有的人還要兼任所謂的這個行政上的一個處理其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大就像我剛剛"},{"start":579.258,"end":606.288,"text":"第一頁就看到這位代理老師他的留言還有他有所謂的聘期不續還有資格取消等等這樣子的問題但是他在被調查的這些期間他沒有任何的心理上的一個支持他甚至是孤立無援的你要他怎麼樣在教學現場繼續走下去我想請問一下部長有沒有考慮可以建立讓老師有一個"},{"start":607.048,"end":626.639,"text":"教師支持的系統不管是法律上的協助心理上的輔導行政上的一個資源我覺得如果老師最後他真的能夠證明他自己的清白甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的一個機制不要讓他們默默的去承受所謂的這些莫須有的罪名"},{"start":627.119,"end":631.083,"text":"如果剛剛就像我們剛剛講的成案只有2.6%剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的我想老師的部分他真的會被嚴重的打擊他在教學現場的一個熱情這個部分我們是不是可以也有這樣子的一個支持系統實質上來支持他們這應該不用等到年底這應該馬上就可以"},{"start":649.1,"end":663.348,"text":"我想這不用我想因為我們現在心理輔導的知識系統本來就可以有六次但是我剛才也有委員關心我們可以到提供到八次這是沒有問題那法例的一個顧問禮兵我們也來跟地方這個教育"},{"start":665.19,"end":688.292,"text":"這個教育基礎來看怎麼樣來協助學校在真正進入到一些法律的一些諮詢跟一些協助我想今天因為是今天其實因為時間非常的有限喔那我再次強調校事會議它不是法庭它應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題能夠我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰啦"},{"start":689.713,"end":709.338,"text":"也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心對學校的一個信任那我想親師之間的一個溝通那也是非常非常的重要那我最後呼籲幾點我們就往這個方向來做好不好我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級的制度"},{"start":709.858,"end":738.881,"text":"那是不是要提高提高所謂的啟動校事會議的門檻適度的提高不要一點點的小小的事情就讓老師真的陷入到其中他真的會身心俱疲第二點就是我們怎麼樣保障就是被校事會議調查的這些老師們他們知情跟答辯的權利再來第三點是怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的一個制度我想這個也是由第三方要非常的公正才能夠"},{"start":739.902,"end":763.71,"text":"讓老師能夠獲得這個清白或者是他要自證我想這個才是有幫助的那再來第四點我們是怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議的單位第五點設立教師支持跟法律援助的體系我想這一點我們第五點可以馬上就做我們讓整個所有的制度可以更明確程序可以更公平那對老師來講我們想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來是要讓老師可以教"},{"start":768.271,"end":793.987,"text":"他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方我想這個部長您應該要同意吧謝謝委員的這個意見我想都是非常寶貴這些東西我相信對未來的這個校室會議的一個處理一定有非常高的一個價值好 我們給更多的老師更多的支持因為最後還是因為學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分好嗎是好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":797.423,"end":804.179,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員官員請回座待會我們在范雲委員結束質詢之後我們進行臨時提案的處理"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時53分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長備詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長辛苦了。我們今天要來討論中小學教師人力不足的問題，最近我的辦公室接到很多的陳情，嚴格上應該有上百件都是跟校事會議有關。簡報上的這一位是今天早上特別在我臉書上留言的代理教師，他因為被家長濫訴，不僅要出席刑事訴訟，同時還有校事會議，目前他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果的，其實身心俱疲，但他還要準備本身的教學教材等等。","在這個過程當中，除了前線的這些教師在跟我反映之外，我覺得已經達到了求救的訊號，我想校事會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的權益，要維護校園當中的一些秩序，但是我們現在看到，也許是過程或者是制度上不夠清楚跟不夠公正，也在校園，尤其是在教學端引起了寒蟬效應，我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看，要怎麼樣能夠往比較好的方向去解決。我想這個部分我們可以看到，這個新聞上的資料顯示，整體的案件是每一年都在增加，但是最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%，沒有具體事證的高達36%，還在進行當中的也高達了百分之六十一點多。教學意見的不同、親師的溝通有落差，甚至一點點小小的事情，只要有人申訴，它可能就馬上會啟動校事會議，初步來講，其實它是沒有分流處理的，甚至有老師直接跟我們反映，他說是不是因為這樣使得人心惶惶，他在整個教學過程當中就不敢創新、不敢嘗試，甚至還有老師跟我們說，難道他在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎？我想請教一下教育部，你們有沒有可能在校事會議當中先建立初步的審查機制，分不同的類型，採取不同的分級處理？請教部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，本來學校就有一個初步的審查，但是確實是因為這樣的氛圍，讓學校變成不管輕重或者事實如何，所有案子就都直接進入到校事調查，我想這也是我們這一年來在校事會議裡面蒐集到很多第一線的，不管是校長、老師，還有許多家長的反映。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議，馬上就進入調查不合理對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，因為現在所有的審查，包含校事會議，都是委託校外這些專業的人士，本來是希望能夠秉持更公開的態度，但是對學校、校長、老師來講，他會認為他們有這些專業沒有錯，但對學校裡面真正的運作可能並沒有辦法掌握地那麼精準。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，也就是說，部長你們已經意識到學校第一線的老師跟我們反映的這些問題，你們都已經……"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們現在希望能夠蒐集更豐富的資料，必要的時候我們去做一些調整。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我今天所有的內容跟問題其實都是第一線的老師曾經反映給我們的，我也會提出我的一些建議。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來，很多的調查案件當中，其實老師沒有被完整的告知他被指控的內容到底是什麼，甚至有人是到了現場才發現他只有一個小時能夠閱卷，同時這一個小時當中，有時候他被調查的這些資料是去識別化的，甚至高達上百頁，一個小時怎麼能夠吸收得了，怎麼能夠看完這些被指控的內容，所以我們是不是能夠要求調查報告應該要完整的告知當事人？才能夠保障被申訴的這些老師，讓他有答辯的準備，或者是讓他有閱覽的權利，這個部分你們是不是可以來研擬、增訂，提供給其他在學校第一現場的人？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這是應該的，因為任何一個民主法治的社會本來就不希望冤枉任何一個人，等於說他沒有犯錯，你不應該……"],["郭委員昱晴：是，目前我們是沒有這樣子的機制，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：等於說他的權益應該要受維護，我想這個部分我們來看怎麼樣在整個流程裡面改善，誠如我剛才跟委員講的，因為我們現在沒有落實初步的審查，變成很多東西直接進到校事會議，也把學校、中小學搞到人仰馬翻，我想這個我們一定要從流程裡面來看怎麼樣建立一個共識，有一個更好的分流機制。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們得到了部長算是正面的一個回應了。接下來我想要問一下，很多學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的？有很多人跟我們反映，學校的調查委員是校長指定，甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員，有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長審查，甚至還有人是教國文的，但是他卻要被地理老師審查，您覺得這樣子合理嗎？是不是可以由地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位來進行抽籤選任，建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制，這個您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：確實我們發現有一些情況，本來我們立意良善，希望不要放縱，也不要冤枉，所以才有一個更客觀的社會、學者專家團體，教育部也有這樣的一個事前的委員增能培訓，所以這個調查委員的pool是由地方縣市政府教育局上網去篩選3到5倍的人選，然後把這個人選名單再交給學校，由學校校長來挑3個或者5個人。"],["郭委員昱晴：不可否認的，其實在教學現場我們碰到來跟我們申訴的這些老師，他所看到的問題包含這些調查委員形成一條龍作業，變成他們沒有任何的利益迴避問題，等於說一直都是同樣的這群人，甚至他們有一些人是完全沒有法政訓練的，也有沒有在學校擔任過教職的經驗，但也被納入調查委員當中，我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面，包含調查委員的資格來著手。那麼我想也有很多的爭議，不管是校事會議當中我們看到的，像是性平也好，霸凌也好，學校在處理校事會議時，有很多的部分變成是球員兼裁判，這個部分其實也難免會流於讓很多的老師覺得他今天要進入到校事會議被調查的過程當中，他是被凌遲的，這個您同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想確實有一些案例，包含也有一些老師直接向我反映或者投訴，我們其實一直希望這個制度毋枉毋縱，看怎麼樣來修改，讓不好的老師……"],["郭委員昱晴：你們什麼時候可以修改？剛剛我們講的這幾條，什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的幫助跟支持？因為他們其實有的還是非常有教學熱誠。我們一直不斷地在講說不管是任何國中小，現在教師的缺額、人力的不足，的確也形成最大的一個問題，其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我想年底之前我們一定會往更好的方向來修訂。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，年底之前。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個真的是已經造成對第一線的一些老師工作士氣跟教學上的干擾。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，老師在被調查的期間，我剛剛也說了，他可能還要備課，有的人還要兼任行政上的業務，其實他的身心壓力是非常非常之大，就像剛剛簡報第1頁我們就看到這位代理老師的留言，還有他有聘期不續、資格被取消等等問題，但是他在被調查期間，沒有任何心理上的支持，他甚至是孤立無援的，你要他怎麼在教學現場繼續走下去？我想請問一下部長，有沒有考慮建立一個教師支持的系統，不管是法律上的協助、心理上的輔導、行政上的資源？我覺得如果老師最後真的能夠證明他自己的清白，甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的機制，不要讓他們默默地去承受這些莫須有的罪名，就像我們剛剛講的，成案只有2.6%，剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的，我想老師在教學現場的熱情真的會被嚴重打擊，這個部分我們是不是也可以有這樣子的一個支持系統，實質上來支持他們？這個應該不用等到年底，應該馬上就可以做了吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想這不用等，因為我們現在心理輔導的支持系統本來就可以有6次，剛才也有委員關心，我們可以提供到8次，這是沒有問題的。法律的顧問裡邊，我們也來跟地方教育局處討論看怎麼樣來協助，學校真正進入到一些法律的諮詢跟協助，應該要建立這樣的機制。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天因為時間非常有限，我再次強調，校事會議不是法庭，他應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題。我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰，也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間，讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心以及對學校的信任。我想親師之間的溝通也是非常非常的重要。","我最後呼籲幾點，我們就往這個方向來做，好不好？我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級制度，是不是要適度地提高啟動校事會議的門檻，不要一點點小小的事情，就讓老師真的陷入到其中，他真的會身心俱疲。第二點，我們怎麼樣保障被校事會議調查的這些老師們，他們的知情跟答辯的權利。再來第三點，怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的制度，我想這個也是要由第三方非常的公正，才能夠讓老師獲得清白，或者是他要自證，我想這才是有幫助的。再來第四點，我們要怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議單位。第五點，設立教師支持跟法律援助體系。我想這一點，亦即第五點我們可以馬上就做，讓整個制度可以更明確，程序可以更公平。對老師來講，我想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來，是要讓老師可以教，他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方，我想這個部長您應該要同意吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的意見，我想都是非常寶貴，這些東西我相信對未來校事會議的處理，一定有非常高的價值。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們給更多老師更多的支持，因為最後學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員，官員請回座。","待會在范雲委員結束質詢之後，我們進行臨時提案的處理。同時也因為接近用餐時間，如果有血糖或者是其他的原因，有必要的個人可以私下用餐。因為今天的議題我想非常相對的很嚴肅，我們希望會場儘可能的保持對委員跟官員的尊重，如果有用餐的狀況的話，我們可能就儘量私下或者整個音量或狀態請麻煩控制一下。","我們接下來有請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b96423054a2671aa1270dc6911ab88c3aae4ff6bd0191219ae2bd5e2a57c2ce5635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:50:31 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主委那現在我們要談到15%的話你認為我們有什麼空間籌碼跟他談"},{"start":196.169,"end":214.739,"text":"主要還是跟委員報告因為我沒有參與到這個談判我說請你的評估因為你是國發會你可以橫跨各部會整合調整各部會的資源來幫助度過這個關稅問題啊所以我才問你你又整合了這事情這麼久了四月份到現在"},{"start":215.74,"end":220.662,"text":"八月了 要八月了這個時間裡面各部會整合一下相對應的要應對的有沒有戰略性的建議的合作的這個價值在那邊還是說我們各部會有什麼相關的這些可以支援可以來對我們產業的幫忙不要讓我們產業受到這麼大的衝擊應該有嘛"},{"start":236.249,"end":254.902,"text":"沒有 這次是一個比較重大的 所以都在院這邊在整合啦那我們都扮演 我們的角色是資源的角色 而且我們分工在中長期的規劃啦那我們就專注在中長期的規劃 因為短期我們資源在各部會那各位 中長期的規劃裡面 有沒有看到我們台灣要做哪些讓步"},{"start":262.744,"end":278.594,"text":"我從中長期來看我們是看到要去轉型要重新佈局企業需要去轉型所以我們編列了一些計畫舉個例子我們AI十大建設裡面就有很大的一塊協助企業進行AI轉型把產品你希望國內的需要的市場能夠再擴大"},{"start":284.698,"end":311.003,"text":"國內來供應就夠了還有國內趕快要走到AI我知道AI這個是我們下一波必須要做的事情所以這是我們已經計畫要執行的部分不只這樣還有開拓新市場像現在工具機有一個很大的新市場在印度那還有一塊也不算小的市場在土耳其那我們也要協助他們往多元化的去發展市場所以這個我們"},{"start":311.923,"end":324.602,"text":"我們台灣是出口導向的國家那人口是很重要的我們台灣多少人口2350萬人口對美國多少人口印度多少人口大陸多少人口這就是很需要的一個問題對不對是的"},{"start":327.125,"end":348.583,"text":"就是我們出口的導向的問題就在這邊這都是國發會你要先為以籌謀看到這些問題要做了準備功夫所以我才會問你說你有準備我們有什麼地方的讓步提到說4000億美金的投資這是我們最大的讓步嗎還是我們可以承受更多承受到哪個程度你有評估過嗎這個是我們有專業的專業評估過嗎國發應該要知道的"},{"start":354.96,"end":375.705,"text":"我們就是扮演資源的角色啦是啊 所以問你我們的資源夠承擔這個未來要讓步的地方嗎投資的地方我相信我們的前線談判的團隊應該有做好前線談判也是一個團隊一個團隊包括你們啊你們提供給他資源啊我的承受度可以到哪裡對不對 我的資源可以到哪裡"},{"start":380.546,"end":402.444,"text":"四千億還是只能到三千億這你沒有提供給他他是有談判籌碼跟底線對不對你沒有底線你怎麼談呢我們的籌碼不會我想不會只有那當然所以我要你評估嘛你今天只能做評估的角色告訴我們讓國人稍微有個底啊對不對因為我沒有參與我沒辦法評估我知道你今天講很多遍了好"},{"start":403.41,"end":426.842,"text":"我要請問這個籌碼跟這個能力的部分主委你沒辦法評估我相信在一個團隊裡面都要提供這些資料給我們談判的人他們才有辦法進一步去談來來回回因為現在沒有簽約啊美國完全看我們的表現啊這個表現就是你們要去談啊才能表現到他滿意嘛所以主委剛剛有提到啦"},{"start":432.659,"end":443.485,"text":"因為我們現在是出國導向的國家那現在我們看到經濟景氣你一直說經濟景氣不錯沒有錯啦在二月份的時候我們還是紅燈到現在四月份的話已經變成綠燈那你看看這個關稅的情形下來的話我們會不會變成藍燈啊"},{"start":452.728,"end":477.043,"text":"你有沒有看到?這個你就要評估囉這個我們是有評估啦我們是看兩個東西這個是落後指標啦我們領先指標來看的話是有下滑的現象那當然這裡面會因為充滿了不定性嘛那最後還是要看談判的結果會影響到如果失誤判的話就會反彈了因為在不定的過程中"},{"start":478.504,"end":498.917,"text":"我們如果從整體出口來看會變高的原因是因為因為從現在你看我們的圖表已經知道了啦從2月份一直下滑到現在啦就GDP的評估我們大概估計在1到1.5還會再下降嗎你估到會再下降它是會有成長但是不會到6點多整個經濟的成長率"},{"start":501.539,"end":509.441,"text":"我看這個3%是太過於樂觀了下半年會比較趨緩所以根據我們中經院在7月17號公布我們經濟預測也有做出同樣的評估尤其是我們的關稅戰已經影響到國際體系整個經貿的一個模式尤其世界各國針對關稅的成本的上升也可能引起全球的通貨膨脹所以 主委"},{"start":531.247,"end":548.314,"text":"這個整個經濟的成長率的你們可能會下修嗎經濟成長率我們原來預估是用3.1預估的那因為我們上半年到6.67那你剛剛講說會下修一點多了那個下修是下半年的部分所以全年我們還是維持在3.1"},{"start":551.995,"end":571.314,"text":"現在已經要下半年了對下半年有可能到1到我剛講到1到1.5之間所以上半年6.67兩個加起來的話我們現在還是在很有信心在3以上但我們還是在所有的政策都在力保3.1的目標不變"},{"start":572.665,"end":577.767,"text":"是 諸位我們現在看到我們的關稅雖然從32%降到這個20%是有階段性的一個成果但是我們最主要跟我們有競爭的國家它的 我們還是比他們高在這種情形之下我們應該要整合各個部會的資源來對於整個我們關稅會受到衝擊的一些優勢的地方來做一個調整那譬如說像剛剛講的這個晶片"},{"start":602.076,"end":607.341,"text":"台積電在美國了在美國所以他可能豁免了那其他國家呢聯電呢還是立積電呢他們如果沒有去美國投資的他們會不會受到很大衝擊這方面你都要去協助他們更加的有這個競爭力整個狀況你都要去了解 好不好那讓我們的整個經濟不衝擊的地方可以"},{"start":625.677,"end":641.036,"text":"讓他們更得到一些保障或者是說在我們整體的這個貿易受到挫折的時候這個低迷的狀況我們可以度過這個難關好的好的這都一定要不是台積電而已我們很多在研發這個高制程的一個研發單位他們都會面臨這個問題對"},{"start":644.34,"end":658.067,"text":"我們這次也有預算去協助他們他們又不去投資不是每個都要投資我們不能逼企業出走台積電已經被你們逼走了我希望後面的不要被逼走我們怎麼樣協助他們度過這個難關好不好我們一定會協助企業度過難關的謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請王鴻薇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時50分）謝謝主席。請劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：呂委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，我延伸剛剛的問題。在這次的特別條例裡面，我們是用32%關稅來做這個特別條例，但現在關稅已經降到20%了，所以應該是足夠來應付這次關稅的問題，對不對？雖然232條款可能會影響到其他產業，這點我們另當別論，事情已經發生了，剛剛主委也特別提到，如果有受到232條例影響的產業，產業自己也會去談，我剛剛聽得很清楚，是不是這樣子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：剛才是提到半導體產業，這個100%的關稅由誰負責？每一家公司都會跟他的客戶……"],["呂委員玉玲：會受影響的產業不只是半導體，不只是晶片啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我剛剛是在回答……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是有去投資的，豁免關稅是一定會豁免的啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我剛剛講的是這一段，大家會去談，怎麼來分攤或者是由誰來付……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，還沒發生，其實這些問題、很多問題都要問經濟部，經濟部不來，只好叫你來了。那我們就聊聊吧！主委，目前美國對我們的關稅，川普已經宣布說是20%了，賴總統第一時間也開了記者會說，這是暫時性的稅率，請問主委，這個暫時性要多久啊？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不是那麼清楚要多久，但是至少我知道我們還在談判當中……"],["呂委員玉玲：依你的判斷評估呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我很難去臆測啦！因為很多事情不掌握在我們手上。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛也有聽到你講關稅是川普他們單方面的宣布而已，並沒有實質跟哪些國家有白紙黑字的簽約，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前來講的話，我們看到的訊息是這樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：是這樣子的話，所以就要看表現……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是都有講好……"],["呂委員玉玲：你剛才講說要看表現，就像現在已經宣布了日本跟韓國他們的關稅是15%，日本、韓國是我們主要競爭的國家，對不對？他們這個15%還有附帶條件，要投資5,000億、3,500億，是不是？你剛剛說你不承認這個4,000億的問題，但是一直喊，從2,000億美金、3,000億美金，已經喊到4,000億美金，投資這些金額，還不知道川普願不願意給我們降低關稅，所以我們的目標是不是儘量努力，最起碼就是要降低到跟日本、韓國一樣？我們在競爭力上才有個持平的點？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我想大家都會朝這個方向努力。"],["呂委員玉玲：有15%我們就已經很高興了啦！對不對？主委，如果我們談到15%的話，你認為我們有什麼空間籌碼跟他談？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要還是跟委員報告，因為我沒有參與到這個談判，這些細節我都不知道……"],["呂委員玉玲：我說請你評估，因為你是國發會，你可以橫跨各部會，整合、調整各部會的資源來幫助大家度過這個關稅的問題啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我才問你，你有整合了，這事情這麼久了，4月份到現在8月了，要8月了，這段時間你沒有把各部會整合一下，相對應要應對的、有沒有戰略性的建議、合作的價值在那邊？還是說我們各部會有什麼相關的資源可以來幫忙我們的產業，不要讓我們產業受到這麼大的衝擊？應該有嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，這次是一個比較重大的，所以都在院這邊整合，我們的角色就是支援的角色，而且我們的分工是在中長期的規劃，所以我們就專注在中長期的規劃，因為短期的……資源在各部會，所以它是由各部會去彙整到院……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，主委，在中長期的規劃裡面，有沒有看到我們臺灣要做哪些讓步？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我從中長期來看，我們是看到要去轉型啦，要重新布局，企業需要去轉型，所以我們編列了一些計畫，舉個例子，我們AI十大建設裡面就有很大的一塊是協助企業進行AI轉型，把產品AI化……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，這個你早上有報告，我聽過了，你希望國內需要的市場能夠再擴大，國內來供應就夠了，還有國內要趕快走到AI……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不只……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道AI是我們下一波必須要做的事情……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，但……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這個是我們已經計畫要執行的部分……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不只這樣，還有開拓新市場，像現在工具機在印度有一個很大的新市場，還有一塊也不算小的市場在土耳其，我們也要協助他們多元化的去發展市場。"],["呂委員玉玲：對啊！我們臺灣是出口導向的國家，人口是很重要的，我們臺灣有多少人口？2,350萬人口。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：美國有多少人口？印度有多少人口？大陸有多少人口？這就是很需要的問題，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是我們出口導向的問題，就在這邊，這都是國發會你要未雨綢繆先看到這些問題，要做的準備功夫。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我才會問你，你有準備我們什麼地方要讓步？這4,000億美金的投資是我們最大的讓步嗎？還是我們可以承受更多？承受到哪個程度，你有評估過嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們有專業的團隊在……"],["呂委員玉玲：專業？評估過嗎？國發會應該要知道的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們就是扮演支援的角色啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：是啊！所以我問你我們的資源夠承擔未來要讓步的地方嗎？投資的地方。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我相信我們前線談判的團隊應該有做好評估跟準備……"],["呂委員玉玲：前線談判也是一個團隊，一個團隊包括你們啊！你們提供他資源，告知你的承受度可以到哪裡，對不對？我的支援可以到哪裡？是4,000億？還是只能到3,000億，這你們要提供給他，他才有談判的籌碼跟底線，對不對？你沒有底線，你要怎麼談呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的籌碼我想不會只有投資的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：那當然！所以我要你評估嘛！你今天只能做評估的角色，告訴我們，讓國人稍微有個底，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我沒有參與，我沒辦法評估。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，你已經講很多遍了。關於籌碼跟能力的部分，主委你沒辦法評估，但我相信在一個團隊裡面，你都要提供這些資料給我們談判的人，他們才有辦法進一步去談，來來回回，因為現在沒有簽約，美國完全看我們的表現啊！這個表現就是你們要去談，表現到讓他滿意嘛！所以主委剛剛有提到，因為我們是出口導向的國家，現在我們看到經濟景氣，你一直說經濟景氣不錯，沒有錯啦！在2月份的時候，我們還是紅燈，到現在8月份的話，已經變成……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在是綠燈。"],["呂委員玉玲：那你看看這個關稅下來的話，我們會不會變成藍燈？你有沒有看到？這個你就要評估了！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們是有評估！我們是看兩個東西，這個是落後指標，我們從領先指標來看的話，是有下滑的現象，當然這裡面會……因為充滿了不定性，最後還是要看談判的結果，會影響到……"],["呂委員玉玲：如果是15%的話，就會反彈了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為它還會變動，因為在不定的過程中，我們如果從整體出口來看，會變高的原因是因為……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在你看我們的圖表也知道了，從2月份一直下滑到現在。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就GDP的評估，我們大概估計在1到1.5……"],["呂委員玉玲：還會再下降嘛？你也估到會再下降？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它是會有成長，但是不會到六點多，大概是1到1.5……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以整個經濟的成長率，我看這個3%是太過於樂觀了，太過於樂觀了……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：下半年會比較趨緩！"],["呂委員玉玲：根據中經院在7月17號公布，經濟預測也有做出同樣的評估，尤其是關稅戰已經影響到整個國際經貿體系的模式，世界各國也針對關稅成本的上升，也可能引起全球的通貨膨脹，所以主委，你們可能會下修經濟成長率嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於經濟成長率，我們原來預估是用3.1去預估的，因為我們上半年到6.67。"],["呂委員玉玲：你剛才說會下修，一點多了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個下修是下半年的部分，所以全年我們還會……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在不是下半年了嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：全年我們還是維持在3.1。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在已經要下半年啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，下半年有可能到……我剛剛講到1到1.5之間。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，所以……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以上半年6.67，兩個加起來的話，我們現在還是很有信心在3%以上，且我們所有的政策都在力保3.1%的目標不變。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，雖然現在看到我們的關稅從32%降到20%，是有階段性的成果，但是最主要跟我們有競爭的國家，我們還是比他們高，在這種情形之下，我們應該要整合各個部會的資源，對於整個會受到關稅衝擊的一些優勢的地方來做調整。譬如說剛才講的晶片，像台積電在美國設廠，所以它可能豁免了，那其他公司呢？聯電呢？還是力積電呢？他們如果沒有去美國投資的，會不會受到很大的衝擊？這方面你都要去協助他們，讓他們更加的有競爭力，整個狀況你都要去了解，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["呂委員玉玲：讓我們整個經濟被衝擊的地方可以得到一些保障，或者是在我們整體貿易受到挫折而低迷時可以度過難關。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["呂委員玉玲：這都一樣，不是台積電而已，我們還有很多高製程的研發單位，他們都會面臨這個問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們這次也有預算去協助他們……"],["呂委員玉玲：他們如果不去投資，不是每個都要投資，我們不能逼企業出走！台積電已經被你們逼走了，我希望後面的不要被逼走，我們怎麼樣協助他們度過這個難關，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們一定會協助企業度過難關，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請王鴻薇委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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廠按照川普的說法或者是有計畫要設廠的都會得到豁免對,我的意思是說那台積電在台灣的廠也同時有獲得豁免嗎?"},{"start":113.224,"end":129.554,"text":"那是一起的那是對進口的關稅的部分那這個部分其實佔台積電進口的大概只有1%那我就確定啦就是說就是在台灣的在美國的都獲得豁免就對了那再請教一下那因為晶片"},{"start":130.731,"end":154.522,"text":"通常會組裝到這個成品出來再送到美國去那這部分組裝的用台積電的晶片組裝的這些下游的產品有獲得豁免嗎他目前是針對晶片的部分那組裝到成品去的並沒有還沒有在他的公告範圍內還沒有嗎那請教一下那個主委"},{"start":156.063,"end":181.14,"text":"這個台積電它這個晶圓設計部分在我們半導體的產業鏈裡面是屬於中斷的嘛中油部分那上游包含這個IC設計那中油我剛才講的就是有晶圓製造那下游這一個封裝測試那我就是要請教一下那主委啦就是說現在的除了台積電的晶片因為在美國設廠有獲得這個豁免但是呢包含它的上游中游下游"},{"start":182.02,"end":209.683,"text":"這些產業那是不是還現在還在談判當中還受到這一個美國的這個232條款的影響還沒有確定他這次川普是講到chip跟semiconductors那正常的情況下是他在他們的正式announcement會針對這些字眼定義含哪些會公告出來他現在還沒有確定那等他的公告就會明顯就會清楚他指的是什麼"},{"start":210.923,"end":234.214,"text":"所以目前就是我講的這些上中油的這些產業都還在這個二三二條款的影響的範圍裡面就對了還沒有確定哪時候會知道也還不知道因為它自己先公告嘛是它的公告那之後美國的商務部會公告嘛那目前他們的關稅勒"},{"start":237.243,"end":260.913,"text":"關稅 我們現在您是指哪一部分的關稅就是說這些半頭體的產品的關稅目前這個部分就像他一樣他會等正式的公告他現在是announcement嘛要等到他政府的正式通知他有一個生效期然後還有他含的他的chips跟這個semi cup那所以就是說上游中游下游的這些產品都還沒有確定就對了要看公告對不對"},{"start":262.293,"end":282.847,"text":"那我再請教一下,其實我們的自通訊顯卡伺服器,這些在美國出口的,出口到美國的這些產品,佔這個百分之大概78左右啦那這些產品,對台灣的廠商來講非常重要,那現在的關稅也還沒有確定嗎?還沒有確定,那目前這些產品還在豁免清單內"},{"start":285.189,"end":292.565,"text":"但是他會不會在232這個現在還沒有確定對還沒有確定那我們現在是把這些跟我們現在對等關稅一起來談嗎"},{"start":294.519,"end":312.154,"text":"我不清楚有沒有一起談因為我沒有參與談可是我看行政院是有講要一起談抱歉我可能沒有注意到這個這很重要我也不知道這個我的印象就是說因為現在8月7號好像等下12點了對等關稅20%就生效了那我們認為說我們的談判團隊說這個是屬於暫時性的關稅接下來會跟232條款受到影響的這些我們資通訊的產品會一起來談應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":324.176,"end":342.182,"text":"如果是這樣的話會對產業比較有利啦不是不是啦你不是團隊的一部分嗎怎麼變成是我在跟你講然後你再回答我說如果這樣談的話這個會比較有利就是行政院給我們的訊息是這樣子啦是暫時性的關稅會跟232條款受到影響的這些產業"},{"start":345.363,"end":358.093,"text":"綁在一起談希望說能夠一起談 談出更好的關稅沒錯 我是在表達這樣談是對產業會比較好可是你剛才給我的回應我覺得你好像不知道說兩個是綁在一起談的這個問題就很重"},{"start":362.797,"end":378.114,"text":"因為這個在比較高的層級談啊不是啊 那就算比較高的層級談這個我也不是談判代表但是我看行政院的相關的資訊我也知道說目前是綁在一起談的啊這主委你這樣的回應讓我有點意外耶我想"},{"start":382.921,"end":411.092,"text":"但是我們現在最主要是因為主要是明天會有一個記者會他應該會說明那最後我再請教一下好了因為現在日本跟韓國都對美國有投資日本投資了這個5500億美國投資了這個3500億那我就請問一下那接下來的這個232的條款我們有辦法取得比談判有取得比日本或是韓國更好的一個稅率嗎"},{"start":412.987,"end":419.802,"text":"因為還沒有投資這麼多了我認為應該是我們現在是中間稅率到20嘛那"},{"start":422.202,"end":449.876,"text":"只會往下降不論是泰國、越南、日韓的談法都會往下降所以應該至少會到跟日韓一樣吧至少我認為啦那我也還是跟你抱歉我沒有參與我知道啦那就是說你認為說這個按照這個外國的這個談判或是日韓的談判最後都往下降了你認為最後我們也會關稅也會往下降目前的暫時性稅率看起來"},{"start":450.856,"end":469.226,"text":"也沒有比對手來講是好啦好那最後再請教這幾個國家來講是好的我再請教最後再請教主委齁我目前這一個齁安全任性這個特別條例啦齁這個其中是930億是用在這個支持台灣的出口供應鏈齁那750億是用在工業180億是用在農業齁"},{"start":471.887,"end":497.949,"text":"但是這是在關稅還沒確定之前你們的這個特別條例是這樣子安排的那我想請教一下主委因為現在20%的暫時金關稅還在談然後232條款你也還沒有確定那就國發外地產來講這個930億有沒有必要再擴充有沒有必要再增加這個規模預算因為這樣看起來它沒有特別用在我們的這個資通訊產業這邊"},{"start":500.696,"end":522.149,"text":"目前這個是針對所有的產業對啊那如果是我來看的話我比較主張的是我們用滾動式來調整看它的變動不是 因為這裡面它現在已經滾到關稅都出來了我就說就國發會議上有沒有必要在930C再增加因為我看來它沒有特別針對會受到70%外銷到美國這些資通訊產品的這些影響"},{"start":528.284,"end":552.876,"text":"這個其實是很難做一個評估但是當然你就這種協助性的東西當然是越多越好但是還要考慮到國家的財政嘛當然啦我是說你們有沒有去我們可以依據這個執行的狀態來做一個就是20%確定之後有沒有要再做調整那這個調整呢是原來的條例裡面因為現在是條例過了預算那預算它這個930億你們還可以再做調整"},{"start":555.518,"end":566.055,"text":"然後呢是這樣在原來通過條例裡面做調整呢還是要送一個新的條例出來然後把這個受到關稅影響的這些預算我們再增加目前行政院做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":569.097,"end":590.045,"text":"因為行政院做法目前是因為這個當時是考慮到不舉債狀態那另外第二個事情是當時是32%評估對 現在已經20%了所以目前來看的話理論上應該是還足以支撐你認為還足以支撐但是我們232也還沒有確定232對台灣那些資通訊產品影響很大如果232有影響到台灣的資通訊"},{"start":597.898,"end":612.535,"text":"那這個金額我認為是需要再增加的但是那個是一個很假設的前提下可是你們沒有去設想好幾個模組嗎?這個情況一、情況二、情況三到底是怎麼樣嗎?"},{"start":614.097,"end":642.836,"text":"這個是有的喔因為我們在8月1號的會議裡面院長有指示就是說我們要重新再評估各種現在新的版本那各部會都在進行中都會彙整到那所以會再提出新的特別條例出來嗎還是就原來的預算裡面再做調整我現在是問這個方向如果有動應該只有金額的部分那就看各部會提出來的有沒有改變就是在通過了條例的下面那預算再做調整就對了"},{"start":644.532,"end":662.947,"text":"因為這個東西這個還是在行政院做最後的拍板不是你是國發會國發會也是很重要的這個可能您可能因為我們這次把這個層級拉得很高拉得很高以後呢那相關的部會就會參與到那裡面去就有那個比較高的層級不含國發會這個這麼高的層級不含國發會就對了"},{"start":666.804,"end":694.133,"text":"因為國會本身沒有資源去做但是當然你是你類似一個幕僚的一個單位對對對那我們在分工上面我們負責中長期的部分就是在這是短期因為中長期是由我們來負責所以在中長期部分我們有規劃了雙金字塔的一個我知道這個其實我都有看過相關資料短期沒辦法一定影響到中長期的我是希望說這個"},{"start":695.834,"end":710.242,"text":"等一下12點28%證實性關稅就生效了那接下來還有232條款這個行政院要先做好準備啦好不好是的是的好謝謝主委好謝謝好謝謝現在先做宣告我們中午不休息延長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":813,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時38分）謝謝主席。請劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。今天早上4點半，美國的川普總統開了一個記者會，他就說要對半導體開徵100%的關稅，除非在美國有設廠，不然就是要課100%的關稅。因為台積電在美國有設廠，所以好像大家就認為台積電已經獲得豁免了，主委也認為是利多。看今天的股票，到目前為止漲了五百多點，然後台積電也漲了大概有50塊左右。我想請問一下主委，台積電有真正確定獲得豁免嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個是川普今天的announcement，並沒有美國政府的正式公告，我的了解都是會以正式公告為準！但是如果就川普的說詞的話，台積電其實是豁免的，因為台積電其實十幾年前就在奧勒岡設廠。"],["李委員坤城：台積電現在有在美國設廠，他就說有要設廠或是說承諾有要設廠都可以獲得豁免。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，台積電的一廠也蓋好了，已經在測試中。"],["李委員坤城：這是指在美國設廠的部分，但台積電在臺灣有更多廠。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，更多。"],["李委員坤城：有獲得豁免嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要是因為他在美國有設廠，按照川普的說法，或者是有計畫要設廠的都會得到豁免。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說，台積電在臺灣的廠也同時獲得豁免？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是一起的，因為這是對進口關稅的部分。"],["李委員坤城：有確定吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分其實大概只有占台積電進口的1%。"],["李委員坤城：我是要確定，在臺灣的、在美國的都獲得豁免就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對！"],["李委員坤城：好。再請教一下，晶片通常會組裝到成品出來再送到美國去，這些用台積電晶片組裝的下游產品有獲得豁免嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是針對晶片的部分，組裝為成品的還沒有在公告範圍內。"],["李委員坤城：還沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["李委員坤城：再請教一下主委，台積電的晶圓設計在我們半導體產業鏈裡面是屬於中段、中游部分，上游包含IC設計，中游就是我剛才講的晶圓製造，下游有封裝測試。我要請教一下主委，現在除了台積電的晶片因為在美國設廠有獲得豁免，但是包含他的上游、中游、下游這些產業是不是目前還在談判當中，還沒有確定是否受到美國232條款的影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這次川普是講到CHIPS跟SEMICONDUCTORS，正常的情況下，他們正式的announcement會針對這些字眼定義、含有哪些會公告出來。"],["李委員坤城：那現在還沒有確定？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，等他公告之後，就會清楚他指的是什麼。"],["李委員坤城：目前我講的這些上、中游產業都還在232條款的影響範圍裡面就對了，還沒有確定？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以還要再看一下。"],["李委員坤城：哪時候會知道也還不知道？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為是他自己先公告，這是他的公告，之後美國的商務部會公告……"],["李委員坤城：目前他們的關稅呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：您是指哪一部分的關稅？"],["李委員坤城：就是這些半導體產品的關稅。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前這個部分一樣要等正式的公告，現在是他的announcement，要等到政府的正式通知，這會有一個生效期，還有這裡的CHIPS跟SEMICONDUCTORS包含什麼。"],["李委員坤城：所以這些上游、中游、下游的產品都還沒有確定就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：要看公告的正確資料。"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下，其實我們的資通訊、顯卡、伺服器產品出口到美國占78%左右，這些產品對臺灣的廠商來講非常重要，現在的關稅也還沒有確定？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還沒有確定。目前這些產品還在豁免清單內，但是它會不會在232？這個現在還沒有確定。"],["李委員坤城：對，還沒有確定。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：要等他……"],["李委員坤城：我們現在是把這些跟我們的對等關稅一起談嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不清楚有沒有一起談，因為我沒有參與談判。"],["李委員坤城：可是我看行政院有講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：要一起談，是嗎？抱歉，我可能沒有注意到這部分。"],["李委員坤城：這很重要，怎麼會不知道呢！我的印象是，現在8月7號，好像等一下12點對等關稅20%就生效了。我們的談判團隊說這個是屬於暫時性的關稅，接下來會跟我們這些受到232條款影響的資通訊產品一起來談，應該是這樣子吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果是這樣的話，會對產業比較有利。"],["李委員坤城：不是！你不是團隊的一部分嗎？怎麼變成我在跟你講，然後你再回答我說，如果這樣談的話會比較有利！因為行政院給我們的訊息是這樣子，暫時性的關稅會跟232條款受到影響的這些產業綁在一起談，希望能夠一起談、談出更好的關稅嘛。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，我是在表達，這樣談對產業會比較好。"],["李委員坤城：可是你剛才給我的回應，讓我覺得你好像不知道兩個是綁在一起談的，這個問題就很嚴重。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這在比較高的層級談，所以……"],["李委員坤城：不是，就算是比較高的層級談，我也不是談判代表，但是我看行政院的相關資訊也知道目前是綁在一起談，主委這樣的回應讓我有點意外！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：最主要是後天會有記者會，他應該會說明。"],["李委員坤城：最後我再請教一下，現在日本跟韓國都對美國有投資，日本投資了5,500億、韓國投資了3,500億。我請問一下，在接下來的232條款及談判上，我們有辦法取得比日本或是韓國更好的稅率嗎？因為他們已經投資這麼多了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在是中間稅率到20%，我認為只會往下降，不論是按照泰國、越南、日、韓的談法都會往下降，所以應該至少會跟日韓一樣吧，我認為啦。"],["李委員坤城：你認為？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我也還是跟你抱歉，我沒有參與談判，所以我沒辦法……"],["李委員坤城：我知道。你認為按照外國的談判或是日韓的談判最後都往下降了，因此最後我們的關稅也會往下降？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們目前的暫時性稅率看起來比對手好，以這幾個國家來講是好的。"],["李委員坤城：我最後再請教主委，目前這個安全韌性特別條例其中的930億是用在支持臺灣的出口供應鏈，750億是用在工業、180億是用在農業，在關稅還沒確定之前你們的特別條例是這樣子安排。我想請教一下主委，因為現在20%的暫時性關稅還在談，然後232條款也還沒有確定，就國發會的立場來講，這個930億有沒有必要再擴充、有沒有必要再增加預算規模？因為這樣看起來，它沒有特別用在資通訊產業。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前這個是針對所有的產業，如果是我來看的話，我比較主張用滾動式調整看它的變動。"],["李委員坤城：不是，現在已經滾到關稅都出來了，我的意思是說，就國發會的立場，有沒有必要在930億以外再增加？就我看來，它沒有特別針對這些70%外銷到美國的資通訊產品的影響。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個其實很難做一個評估，不過這種協助性的東西當然是越多越好，但是還要考慮到國家的財政。"],["李委員坤城：當然，所以你們有沒有去估……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們可以依據這個執行的狀態來做滾動式調整。"],["李委員坤城：就是20%確定之後有沒有要再做調整？這個調整是在原來的條例裡面？因為現在是條例過了，而還有預算，這個930億的預算你們還可以再做調整，這樣是在原來通過的條例裡面做調整？還是要送一個新的條例出來，然後把受到關稅影響的這些預算再增加？目前行政院的作法是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這個當時是考慮到不舉債狀態，另外第二個事情是，當時各部會是依32%評估出來的……"],["李委員坤城：對，現在已經20%了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以目前來看，理論上應該是還足以支撐。"],["李委員坤城：你認為還足以支撐？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是實際……"],["李委員坤城：但是232也還沒確定。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是因為很多……"],["李委員坤城：232對臺灣的一些資通訊產品影響很大。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果232有影響到臺灣的資通訊，這個金額我認為需要再增加，但這是在一個很假設的前提下。"],["李委員坤城：可是你們沒有設想好幾個模組嗎？例如情況一、情況二、情況三到底是怎麼樣嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是有的。因為在8月1號的會議裡面，院長有指示我們要重新再評估現在各種新的版本，所以各部會都在進行中、都會彙整到……"],["李委員坤城：所以會再提出新的特別條例？還是在原來的預算裡面再做調整？我現在是問這個方向。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果有動，應該只有金額的部分，那就看各部會提出來的有沒有改變。"],["李委員坤城：就是在通過的條例下面，預算再做調整就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這部分還是在行政院做最後的拍板。"],["李委員坤城：不是，你是國發會耶，國發會也是很重要！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這部分您可能有誤會，因為我們這次把層級拉得很高。拉得很高以後，相關的部會就會參與其中，就由那個比較高的層級做決定。"],["李委員坤城：這麼高的層級不含國發會就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為國發會本身沒有資源去做。"],["李委員坤城：當然，你類似一個幕僚單位。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對！所以在分工上面，我們負責中長期的部分，這是短期因應方案，那中長期是由我們來負責，所以在中長期部分，我們規劃了雙金字塔的一個……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，其實我都有看過相關資料，你短期沒辦法因應，一定會影響到中長期啊！等一下12點，20%暫時性關稅就生效了，接下來還有232條款，行政院要先做好準備，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在先作宣告：我們中午不休息，延長開會時間，在王鴻薇委員質詢結束後，休息10分鐘。","現在請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請教育部部長請部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":17.067,"end":40.597,"text":"最近我們教育界特別是大學校園醜聞百出令民眾都非常的擔憂那我想請教這個海科大爆發了說台積電因為有提供給我們海科大特教生的公讀金的機會結果現在爆發出海科大特教中心的蔡主任他要求我們特教系的學生"},{"start":42.264,"end":61.769,"text":"打工的這個工讀金要回捐一萬元要學生打工然後特教中心來收回扣這個事件爆發我看教育部也已經有注意到了我想要請問這個我們教育部目前打算怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":64.039,"end":80.127,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經組這個專案小組去調查了我們會組專案小組已經組專案小組去調查是這一個案件我們一定要好好的來關切因為他是還是特教生"},{"start":81.327,"end":98.573,"text":"還在特教中心那如果確實是要求學生回捐收回扣這個錢是誰拿走了是回到系上還是教授私人使用還是作為什麼使用這個目前我們有了解嗎你們組專案小組錢拿去哪裡了因為報告還在清查當中"},{"start":104.697,"end":133.118,"text":"還在清查清查是指你有很多案要了解他總體的流向我現在只問一個問題錢拿去哪裡了我們只是要判斷到底這樣學校還沒回你們對這不用判斷吧錢拿去哪裡了校方到現在又答不出來嗎錢誰拿走了調查小組的資料還沒有回來這個都太慢了這個很簡單的一個事實釐清嘛你這個我不是要你一個完整的報告這個錢誰拿走了拿去哪裡"},{"start":134.824,"end":155.733,"text":"因為如果是確實挪用的話挪用侵佔這跟台師大那個案件類似這有刑法的問題喔這不是學校校內行政處理而已喔所以請你們務必了解好不好然後再來張師大的輔資系接連的爆發性平案件"},{"start":157.092,"end":169.938,"text":"現在目前已知的總共是四案第一案這個黃姓教授已經調查成立就性侵案成立再來第二案有一個張姓教授也是"},{"start":171.672,"end":193.862,"text":"張師大前副校長他是性騷案件也調查成立但是因為他是在校外因為學生畢業校友所以呢這個是在縣府來調查但是也成立了另外兩個案件同樣都是姓王的兩個教授兩個案件也是性騷案現在是在調查當中是不是是"},{"start":195.359,"end":214.859,"text":"那因為這些案子接連的發生所以有學生陸續開始出面來揭露所以他極有可能是在同一個時期當中所爆發的集體的失對聲權利不對等關係下的"},{"start":215.66,"end":229.423,"text":"性平案件 極有可能是這樣我們還在了解當中對不對但是我要請教的是因為這個張姓這個前副校長他的案件你們知不知道他是畢業的校友是什麼時候投訴的在113年去年9月就申訴了什麼時候調查成立"},{"start":242.932,"end":262.922,"text":"今年六月調查成立今年七月這個前副校長就馬上閃退申請退休那在這個案件發生之後才開始有其他的學生出來然後也才有後續兩個王姓教授的性騷案件開始在調查"},{"start":264.588,"end":289.819,"text":"也就是說其實從這個校友第一次投訴去年九月到現在其實將近一年的時間了我希望教育部也可以去思考協助張師大一起來討論在這一年的過程當中我們有沒有可能提早來去發現倘若它是一個集體性的"},{"start":292.028,"end":300.866,"text":"教授在同一個系上在同一個系上對於學生有性騷同時還有性侵案件"},{"start":301.994,"end":324.645,"text":"我們有長達一年的時間我們有沒有可能提早發現那張師大在案發之後就前兩天發一個公開的聲明讓我覺得台師大跟張師大是不是有一個師大GBT這個聲明都很像他說呢因為這個調查的過程當中這個細上都不知情"},{"start":326.175,"end":339.682,"text":"因為呢 性平案件在校方調查校外案件在縣府調查所以張氏大新府系竟然說過程當中他們都不知情啊調查成立他們才知情部長你覺得合理嗎呃 無法想像要等到調查成立 系上才會知情部長你也覺得無法想像嗎所以這樣的聲明我認為這就在包庇啊"},{"start":356.283,"end":372.737,"text":"一年的時間他們都不知情按照法規啊你有性侵案件在調查當中其實就可以開教評會不是嗎有沒有可能他在調查當中就可以來停聘了嘛對不對 按照法規是可以的所以系上不可能在調查過程當中不知情嘛系上 系方應該是要保護學生怎麼會屢屢的"},{"start":383.326,"end":395.389,"text":"怎麼會屢屢的都沒有辦法保護學生然後呢都卸責都說我們不知情要是我們可以更早知情我們就會好好保護學生好熟悉的話真的是這樣嗎是不知情還是包庇呢所以教育部現在也說對張師大你們也會來來進行調查嗎過程當中有沒有行政疏失是我希望不要輕輕放下"},{"start":413.629,"end":442.796,"text":"我們一定會有一個專業小組把它調查清楚在這調查過程當中這一年當中 系上完全不知情嗎 知情到什麼程度為什麼過程當中沒有主動來協助學生你說停聘 它有法規的要求我們都可以理解但是法規也有給我們工具可以停聘的不停聘"},{"start":443.912,"end":446.69,"text":"可以就算不停聘主動給學生提出"},{"start":448.25,"end":473.325,"text":"輔導的資源一年的時間都沒有做部長你也很難想像我也覺得很失望所以趕快來亡羊補牢當事人就馬上應該要先趕快來亡羊補牢好不好那現在我認為這個第一我們校方應該要提供一個單一的申訴機制不應該是再去網路上面去搜尋哪個學生今天說了什麼明天說了什麼"},{"start":474.806,"end":490.933,"text":"過去一年為什麼學生沒有主動向系上來投訴很有可能這個裡面已經有信任的問題了來一個單一的申訴機制第二個一定要來提供輔導的資源好不好好那最後呢這個台師大的案件"},{"start":493.851,"end":513.111,"text":"大家都很關心那我今天想要釐清兩件事第一個因為我們世代IRB的陳教授今天有來現場嘛7月22的時候出席未還委員會立法院的這個公聽會他有指出三件事就是當時世代的IRB在審查的時候有三件事當時這個計畫主持人"},{"start":515.333,"end":533.818,"text":"是隱密沒有揭露的第一個這個研究的對象當時計畫主持人來說明的時候沒有說是私生關係第二個當時來說明的時候也沒有提到這就是台師大女足隊所以不知道或當時IRB委員會不知道這是學生第三個當時來審查的時候是在計畫裡面是說會請有執照而且有經驗的人進行抽血"},{"start":539.62,"end":551.227,"text":"好 所以這三件事情當時是隱匿沒有揭露也就是說其實當時在計劃送審的時候這 部長這可以說是用造假的資料來審查是不是這麼說我想至少他提供的資料審查委員既然可以不知道這是學生不知道這是女組隊隱匿就是造假嘛好 那我們現在確認這個事實嘛"},{"start":568.427,"end":590.362,"text":"當時計畫主持人用造假的資料來送審我們依照現行法規可以怎麼處置報告委員這個分兩個部分它違反人體研究法的部分我們已經裁發了對我們教育部裁發了那第二個部分如果真的有涉及到造假或者是研究經費的一個流向的問題我們也移送檢調在申辦當中了"},{"start":592.039,"end":608.771,"text":"好 那這個 因為目前校方有開教評會是針對周太英教授 教練來處置所以已經解聘了那關於這個計畫主持人陳中慶教授有沒有開教評會"},{"start":611.943,"end":629.119,"text":"報告委員 學校有召開過教評會但是部裡頭在這邊也是認為說他們沒有就整個違反人體研究的部分想與究責所以我們在七月份的時候有退回學校請他們兩週內重審完畢之後再把結果報到部裡頭來"},{"start":630.06,"end":646.894,"text":"所以這個是幾號之前?台師大目前也正在開教評會當中正在開教評會按照教師法22條解聘或不續聘的條件包含了行為違反相關法規經查證屬實這個要召開教評會這個計畫違反人體研究法有沒有屬實?"},{"start":655.325,"end":680.761,"text":"報委員他確實違反了人體研究法當時IRB來送繩的時候使用了造假的資料目前已知有沒有屬實這個部分我們都確認說屬實這兩點都是已知屬實的雖然我們教育部這個IRB調查小組最終的這個結果還沒出來但這兩點都已知屬實所以按照教師法這個接下來的教評會我希望能夠公允的"},{"start":686.276,"end":693.44,"text":"來處置那教育部要來關心後續這教評會是校方開的嘛但我們要來關心後續不能夠以制度來去掩蓋"},{"start":703.027,"end":716.18,"text":"行為的疏失IRB的程序要檢討但是按照我們現行的我們有教師法我們有教評會程序你都已知違法的事件"},{"start":717.54,"end":738.124,"text":"這個IRB的後續的處置跟這一個教師是否適任就是兩件事情所以我希望教育部後續要持續的來關注希望讓我們國人對於台灣的高教可以重拾信心部長可不可以一定好 謝謝部長謝謝吳佩儀委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我請教育部部長。"],["主席：請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。最近我們教育界，特別是大學校園醜聞百出，令民眾都非常擔憂，我想請教有關海科大的部分，因為台積電有提供給海科大特教生申請工讀金的機會，結果現在爆發出海科大特教中心的蔡主任，他要求特教系學生打工的工讀金要回捐1萬元，要學生打工，然後特教中心來收回扣，這個事件爆發，我看教育部也已經有注意到了，我想要請問教育部目前打算怎麼樣來處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們已經組專案小組去調查了。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們會組專案小組？"],["鄭部長英耀：已經組專案小組去調查。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，這個案件你們一定要好好地來關切，因為他是特教生，還在特教中心，如果確實是要求學生回捐，收回扣，這個錢是誰拿走了？是回到系上還是教授私人使用，還是作為什麼使用，這個目前你們有了解嗎？你們組專案小組調查，錢拿去哪裡了？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員報告，還在清查當中。"],["吳委員沛憶：還在清查？清查是指你有很多案要了解總體的流向，但我現在只問一個問題，錢拿去哪裡了？"],["吳司長林輝：我們只是要判斷到底這樣收的……"],["吳委員沛憶：學校還沒回你們？"],["吳司長林輝：對，還在……"],["吳委員沛憶：這不用判斷吧！錢拿去哪裡了，校方到現在都答不出來嗎？錢誰拿走了？"],["吳司長林輝：調查小組的資料還沒有回來。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個都太慢了，這是很簡單的一個事實釐清嘛，我不是要你一個完整的報告，這個錢誰拿走了、拿去哪裡？因為如果確實是挪用的話，挪用、侵占，這跟臺師大的那個案件類似，這有刑法的問題，這不是學校校內行政處理而已，所以請你們務必了解，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：再來是彰師大的輔諮系接連爆發性平案件，目前已知的總共是4案，第一案，這個黃姓教授已經調查成立，性侵案成立；再來第二案，有一個張姓教授也是彰師大前副校長，他是性騷案件也調查成立，但是因為這個案件是在校外，因為學生畢業了，已經是校友，所以這是縣府在調查，但是也成立了；另外兩個案件，同樣都是姓王的兩個教授，兩個案件也是性騷案，現在是在調查當中，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為這些案子接連發生，就有學生陸續開始出面來揭露，所以極有可能是在同一個時期當中所爆發的集體師對生權力不對等關係下的性平案件，極有可能是這樣，我們還在了解當中，對不對？但是我要請教的是，因為這個張姓前副校長的案件，你們知不知道這個畢業的校友是什麼時候投訴的？"],["鄭部長英耀：在113年。"],["吳委員沛憶：去年9月就申訴了，什麼時候調查成立？今年6月調查成立。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：今年7月前副校長就馬上閃退、申請退休。在這個案件發生之後才開始有其他學生出來，也才有後續兩個王姓教授的性騷案件開始調查。也就是說，從校友第一次投訴，去年9月到現在其實將近一年的時間了，我希望教育部也可以去思考，協助彰師大一起來討論。在這一年的過程當中，我們有沒有可能提早發現？倘若它是一個集體性的，教授在同一個系上對學生有性騷，同時還有性侵案件，長達一年的時間，我們有沒有可能提早發現？彰師大在案發之後，前兩天有發一個公開的聲明，讓我覺得臺師大跟彰師大是不是有一個師大GPT？這個聲明都很像，他說調查的過程當中，系上都不知情，因為性平案件在校方調查，校外案件在縣府調查，所以彰師大輔諮系竟然說過程當中他們都不知情，調查成立才知情。部長，你覺得合理嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：無法想像。"],["吳委員沛憶：要等到調查成立，系上才會知情？部長，你也覺得無法想像嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：對於這樣的聲明，我認為就是在包庇啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["吳委員沛憶：一年的時間，他們都不知情？按照法規，若有性侵案件，在調查當中其實就可以開教評會，不是嗎？有沒有可能他在調查當中就可以停聘了，對不對？按照法規是可以的。"],["鄭部長英耀：依法令來講……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以系上不可能在調查過程當中不知情嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：系方應該是要保護學生……"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上要先停職。"],["吳委員沛憶：怎麼會屢屢的都沒有辦法保護學生？然後都卸責說他們不知情，要是他們可以更早知情就會好好保護學生。好熟悉的話，真的是這樣嗎？是不知情還是包庇呢？教育部現在也說對彰師大會進行調查，看過程當中有沒有行政疏失。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：我希望不要輕輕放下。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們一定會有一個專案小組將其調查清楚。"],["吳委員沛憶：在調查過程的這一年當中，系上完全不知情嗎？知情到什麼程度？為什麼過程當中沒有主動協助學生？你說停聘，這有法規的要求，我們都可以理解，但是法規也有給我們工具，可以停聘的不停聘，就算不停聘，也應主動給學生提出輔導的資源，但一年的時間都沒有做。部長，你也很難想像，我也覺得很失望，所以趕快來亡羊補牢……"],["鄭部長英耀：當事人就馬上應該要……"],["吳委員沛憶：趕快來亡羊補牢，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：現在我認為，第一個，校方應該要提供一個單一的申訴機制，不應該再去網路上面搜尋哪個學生今天說了什麼、明天說了什麼，過去一年為什麼學生沒有主動向系上投訴？很有可能已經有信任的問題了，因此要有一個單一的申訴機制。第二個，一定要提供輔導的資源，好不好？","最後，臺師大的案件大家都很關心，但我今天想要釐清兩件事，第一個，因為師大IRB的陳教授今天有來現場，7月22日的時候出席立法院衛環委員會的公聽會，他有指出三件事，就是當時師大IRB在審查的時候，有三件事是計畫主持人隱匿沒有揭露的：第一個，關於研究的對象，當時計畫主持人說明時沒有說是師生關係；第二個，當時說明時也沒有提到這就是臺師大女足隊，所以不知道，因為當時IRB委員會不知道這是學生；第三個，當時來審查的時候，在計畫裡面是說會請有執照且有經驗的人進行抽血。這三件事情當時是隱匿沒有揭露，也就是說，其實在計畫送審的時候，部長，這可以說是用造假的資料來審查，是不是這麼說？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想至少他提供的訊息……"],["吳委員沛憶：審查委員竟然可以不知道這是學生、不知道這是女足隊？隱匿就是造假嘛！我們現在來確認這個事實，當時計畫主持人用造假的資料送審，我們依照現行法規可以怎麼處置？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，這分兩個部分，違反人體研究法的部分我們已經裁罰了……"],["吳委員沛憶：這衛福部已經裁罰了？"],["廖司長高賢：對，教育部裁罰了。第二個部分，如果真的有涉及到造假或者是研究經費的流向問題，我們也移送檢調在偵辦當中了。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，因為目前校方有開教評會，是針對周台英教練做處置，所以已經解聘。至於計畫主持人陳忠慶教授，有沒有開教評會？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，學校有召開過教評會，但部裡頭在這邊也認為他們沒有就整個違反人體研究的部分詳予究責，所以我們在7月份的時候有退回學校，請他們兩週內重審完畢之後再把結果報到部裡頭。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以是幾號之前？"],["廖司長高賢：臺師大目前也正在開教評會當中。"],["吳委員沛憶：正在開教評會，按照教師法第二十二條，解聘或不續聘的條件包含了行為違反相關法規，經查證屬實，要召開教評會。這個計畫違反人體研究法，有沒有屬實？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，他確實違反了人體研究法……"],["吳委員沛憶：當時IRB送審的時候使用了造假的資料，目前已知有沒有屬實？"],["廖司長高賢：這個部分我們都確認是屬實……"],["吳委員沛憶：這兩點都是已知屬實的，雖然教育部IRB調查小組的最終結果還沒出來，但這兩點都已知屬實，所以按照教師法，接下來的教評會，我希望能夠公允的處置。而教育部要關心後續，教評會是校方開的，但你們要關心後續，不能夠以制度來掩蓋行為的疏失，IRB的程序要檢討，但是按照現行的，我們有教師法、有教評會程序，都已知違法的事件，IRB的後續處置跟這個教師是否適任，這是兩件事情，我希望教育部後續要持續關注，希望讓國人對於臺灣的高教可以重拾信心，部長，可不可以？"],["鄭部長英耀：一定。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，官員請回座。","接下來休息5分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時48分）","繼續開會（11時53分）"],["主席：會議繼續進行。","接下來有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b9df5fb249f7d7490c70dc6911ab88c3aa0394dc758d122e3143052525fe23673a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:26:01 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連台積電都沒有"},{"start":286.198,"end":311.918,"text":"台積電的活力毛利只有50幾%而已他還沒有100%啊你給他扣100%的關稅他活不下去啊我還是要講喔因為多數廠商還是以FoB為主你現在記不懂要講啊買方在付錢台積電當時希西威也跟我講過如果今天有關稅他會要他的客戶來負擔誰關稅都客戶付美國人付美國人付你可以去問希西威他自己講的我只是轉述這個話"},{"start":313.319,"end":314.92,"text":"台積電的毛利只有五成多五十幾趴很厲害了他也沒有一百趴他今天是因為在美國設廠"},{"start":330.831,"end":339.316,"text":"所以他後面料呢 大力多 很好 大家鼓掌他還在美國設廠 可是300多家相關的Supply Chain他沒有都要扣100%你不要忘了他剛剛有文提到的CHIP跟其他的Semi-conductor的相關的產業的產品當然 細項沒有出來 但是基本上要炒在蛋啦"},{"start":354.625,"end":359.57,"text":"沒有一個產業賺錢他100%的啦你說跟其他世界其他國家比大家也都沒有100%啦我活不下來啊 我活不下來啊 在這裡啊除非我在美國能夠轉移給別人報我付美國報我付嗎?川普報我付100%的關稅嗎?"},{"start":375.898,"end":380.742,"text":"這個都要去寫 阿如果是美國的話 阿美國就沒意義阿川普就這麼費工川普弄了半天結果他來付100% 奇怪這個邏輯 主委阿 這個阿這個你不要張口來講就這樣 謊話連篇怎麼會說美國幫你付 哪裡有美國幫你付美國幫你付這個錢 奇怪我只是就我的專業分析喔 我來自產業我來自產業 我來自產業"},{"start":404.358,"end":411.184,"text":"我來自學界我跟廠商都有溝通過我跟廠商也有溝通過很多廠商都說我學生咧不用說這樣啦你講整包我跟你講主委就是論事我一直跟你強調你都不回答的問題我是說下去美國市場的沒有問題"},{"start":430.077,"end":456.485,"text":"他沒有人力去的呢?怎麼辦?100%水庫你剛剛跟我講說川普要付啊你川普在那邊課啊?我沒有講川普要付你說FOB啊?FOB齁?你剛剛講FOB啊?業界過去都會經過協商因為每一家公司的巴根泡不一樣所以他會經過協商第二種我們有短期的因應方案去協助廠商降低成本"},{"start":457.245,"end":461.307,"text":"那我們這個預算 那對手因為也是漲100%我現在告訴你 你不要講對手你現在系統壓降 你看歐陵隧道我沒有系統壓降 只是我把事實做分析我會跟你講事實假如我是這個相關企業的老闆 我賺不到100%"},{"start":484.93,"end":497.655,"text":"我還要想跟他競爭你的假設這100%都要台灣的企業付的前提下講這件事情當然是台灣企業付不然的話川普是課這個稅是課薪資沒有因為你來自學界我來自產業我可以告訴你產業絕對會去協商協商稅 這樣美國會付喔這樣川普都沒有課啊川普都沒有收關稅了川普現在多plot"},{"start":510.694,"end":518.873,"text":"說多麼驕傲的說我扣關稅已經扣了一千多億美金如果都是美國人的包袱他為什麼講這話"},{"start":520.823,"end":548.504,"text":"他為什麼要講這個話對不對 來這個我看下一頁我請教一個 今天其實更重要的主題在這裡主權基金你是主管單位 對吧主權基金我不是主管單位是喔 怎麼不是 你Google一下國安會是主管單位喔我們只是只是現在在評估負責評估而已那你什麼時候可以把草案送到行政院我們現在正在訪談"},{"start":550.75,"end":575.968,"text":"幾個主要的國家的主權基金因為他這裡面非常的複雜我們必須很慎重的處理大概給我們時間表什麼時候可以送到行政院我們的我們目前的看法就是我們寧願做很好的準備而不是有時間表那我們現在正在排到幾個國家去拜訪請教他們他們的做法是什麼因為他必須第一今年底有沒有辦法可能出來草案出來有沒有可能今年底"},{"start":576.918,"end":603.031,"text":"我們還要一層一層的上報這個看看這樣的準備夠不夠但是我跟您報告很重要的就是他如何能夠被監管的情況下又有自由的外界高度質疑非常大外界高度質疑你這個主權基金為什麼原來民進黨政府是反對的突然同意了因為主要都是要投資美國送過去美國那裡好最後一點我要跟你講一個東西川普講的"},{"start":604.738,"end":630.999,"text":"那是我們美國的錢啦日本對美國5500億所以我給他15%歐盟6000億南韓3500億美金那是美國的錢就很像職棒簽約的簽約金那是他的money結果我們為了拚面子我們為了跟韓國日本一樣拚5%我們每年賣到美國只有1160億"},{"start":635.565,"end":644.769,"text":"很多了省5%省60億美金為了省60億美金外面外傳要給4千億美金所以台灣他要台灣這個對美投資4千億美金這是extra的喔這是extra不算在這裡面的喔你怎麼講這個數據我不知道從哪裡來的所以我沒辦法抗議媒體對講4千億換5%變成15%那怎麼樣變15%"},{"start":664.178,"end":666.463,"text":"我是覺得20%就認了不要審這個東西我沒辦法對未經證實的數據來做comment這個 各位這個我再跟你強調喔"},{"start":677.045,"end":701.999,"text":"我再跟你強調如果你剛剛講是對的說我們都有辦法轉嫁的話川普不必課這個稅啦所以我剛剛講企業一定會去商量不是這樣子啦我剛剛用的是商量我就跟你強調這個日本五千五百億歐盟六千億南韓三千五百億川普說那是美國的錢那是my money"},{"start":702.935,"end":711.559,"text":"美國的錢是美國的錢所以不管台灣投資多少都是他拿走的我們為了就拼這個我覺得0月20%就20%嘛其實20%的衝擊很大啦你現在來講什麼大利多我聽一聽我們說什麼利多那是在美國市場的"},{"start":725.543,"end":742.219,"text":"一個這個晶片廠也好半導體廠也好是利多但是沒有受得人以及對我們下一代的就業機會是很大的傷害我要跟你講到這一天謝謝謝謝韋恩有些地方可能也許彼此有誤解我下次再跟您報告謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時26分）謝謝主席。有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，川普總統說要對晶片課百分之百的關稅，你說對臺灣是大利多，我就覺得很奇怪喔！課100%的關稅，成本增加100%，晶片廠才賺到100%，對不對？你說今天股票漲，不要忘了台積電漲了55塊，台積電漲1塊錢，我們的加權指數漲8.61，所以基本上主要是台積電以及你剛剛提到中美晶有在美國設廠的那一些工廠，他們的股票漲，其他的股票不漲啊！都跌啊！你仔細看一下，怎麼會整個是大利多呢？我都不知道大利多從何講起？怎麼會有一個大利多？大利多是指他有在美國設廠，當然是零關稅，當然是大利多，對台積電當然是大利多；其他沒有設廠的呢？請問我們半導體總共有幾家，你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我講的是利多，利多主要是因為我們主要的產值在……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！我的時間有限，你不用講……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是有限的，是在這些廠商嘛，其他的廠商，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：對，就是有在美國設廠，當然是利多，因為零關稅，別人是100%，當然是利多，可是那一些沒有去的廠商呢？你告訴我，現在有幾家的半導體廠商在國內，你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：國內現在……"],["賴委員士葆：半導體廠商有幾家？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：半導體廠商的話，我沒有細數過。"],["賴委員士葆：大概、roughly？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：roughly應該有10家以上。"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！全部半導體產業跟半導體有關係的，你怎麼都沒有講？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟半導體有關係的那就太多了。"],["賴委員士葆：對！supply 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chain，整個供應鏈加起來307家，就業人口31.7萬人。主委，我是替你煩惱，這三、四百家都可以去美國設廠嗎？都有這個條件嗎？它都像台積電資本這麼雄厚，可以到處設廠，難道每一家都可以嗎？這些沒有去的人課100%！他賺的有超過100%嗎？我2塊錢賣4塊錢、賣5塊錢，這麼厲害，有賺100%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我有報告過我們有兩個方案，一個是短期方案，一個是中長期方案。"],["賴委員士葆：是！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：短期方案是應急的，我們編列930億以上的金額來做這件事，我們是……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣還是不夠啦！主委，我更關心的是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個部分，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：來，請聽我講完。就業人口三十幾萬，因為這是2023年的資料，現在應該是三十幾萬了，我最擔心的是我替我們的下一代擔心，你知道嗎？台積電去設廠，馬上少掉幾萬的工程師就業機會，美國有去多少，你告訴我？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，這是一個錯誤的訊息。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼錯誤訊息？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電在國內的設廠更多，所以台積電現在招募的員工一年超過8億，它並沒有讓工作消失……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要跟我雞同鴨講，不要只有講台積電，我講的是其他整個產業。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個，這100%不是只有對臺灣徵100%，對全世界每一個競爭對手都是付一樣的錢。"],["賴委員士葆：所以怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就跟計程車一起漲價一樣，會造成……"],["賴委員士葆：不是啊，對我來講，我管其他人，我賺不到100%啊，我現在去那裡要加100%啊，除非我去美國設廠！我沒有去美國設廠，我就加100%，我沒辦法活啊！問題在這裡。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在主要是跟競爭者打到的，我們現在正在評估，像GlobalFoundries在美國有廠等等，我們去了解它，我們現在正在了解它，但它絕對……"],["賴委員士葆：主委啊，我關心的我再強調一遍，我們下一代優秀工程師的就業機會，因為都要去美國才0%，對不對？你100%，我賺得到100%嗎？那麼厲害，打死我也不信，你現在隨便講一家國內的廠商，它的獲利100%以上，你告訴我哪一家？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以委員……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我哪一家，連台積電都沒有，台積電的獲利、毛利只有百分之五十幾而已，它也沒有100%，你給它課100%的關稅……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員這一點……"],["賴委員士葆：它活不下去啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我還是要講，因為多數廠商還是以FOB為主……"],["賴委員士葆：你現在雞同鴨講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是買方在付錢，當時台積電C.C. Wei也跟我講過，如果今天有關稅，它會要它的客戶來負擔，它不會……"],["賴委員士葆：所以關稅都客戶付、美國人付？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你可以去問C.C. Wei，這他自己講的，我只是轉述這個話，廠商跟我講的話。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，你要這樣子鴕鳥……我再強調一遍……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我要跟委員報告，我們最近端出AI新十大建設，我們認為我們的未來在AI。"],["賴委員士葆：台積電的毛利只有五成多，很厲害了，它也沒有100%！它今天是因為在美國設廠，所以它豁免掉了，這是大利多，很好，大家鼓掌。可是三百多家相關的supply chain沒有，都要扣100%！你不要忘了剛剛有委員提到了，chips跟其他的semiconductors的相關產業的產品，當然細項沒有出來，但是基本上要「剉咧等」，沒有一個產業賺100%的！你雞同鴨講，你說跟其他世界、其他國家比100%……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大家也都沒有100%，全世界沒有100%啦！"],["賴委員士葆：問題我活不下來！在這裡啊！除非我這100%能夠轉移，給別人幫我付，美國幫我付嗎？川普幫我付這100%關稅嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個都要去協商。"],["賴委員士葆：如果是美國的話，川普哪需要這麼費工？川普弄了半天，結果它來付100%？真奇怪！這個邏輯……主委啊，你不要張口來講就謊話連篇，怎麼會說美國幫你付，哪裡有美國幫你付？美國幫你付這個錢？真奇怪！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我只是就我的專業分析，我來自產業……"],["賴委員士葆：我也就我的專業跟你講，你是錯的！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我來自產業。"],["賴委員士葆：我來自學界。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，跟產學向來有距離的。"],["賴委員士葆：我不會比你差，不要這樣子！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第一個事情是我跟廠商都有溝通過。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟廠商也有溝通過，很多廠商的老闆是我學生。不用說這樣啦，你講一大堆？我跟你講，主委，就事論事，我一直跟你強調，但你都不回答我的問題！我是說現在去美國設廠的沒有問題；但沒有去的、沒有能力去的怎麼辦？100%誰付？你剛剛跟我講說川普要付，那川普就不用課了啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有講川普要付。"],["賴委員士葆：你說FOB啊！對不對？你講FOB啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：FOB都是買方在付，這個都要業界……"],["賴委員士葆：業界，美國……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：過去都是經過協商，因為每一家公司的bargain power不一樣，所以它會經過協商。第二個，我們有短期的因應方案去協助廠商降低成本，我們這個預算也會端出來。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣你也沒辦法100%！100%的關稅是要怎麼活？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對手因為也是漲100%……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在告訴你……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大家都必須找出答案。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講對手，你現在雞同鴨講！你看看，「黑龍繞桌」。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有雞同鴨講，只是我把事實做……"],["賴委員士葆：我要跟你講，我也跟你講事實。假如我是相關企業的老闆，我賺不到100%！它把我課100%，我都沒辦法活，我還要想跟它競爭，根本賣不掉啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你的假設是這100%都要臺灣的企業付的前提下講這件事情。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是臺灣企業，不然川普課這個稅是課心酸的喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為您來自學界，我來自產業，我可以告訴你產業絕對會去協商，因為過去並沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：叫美國付喔？川普都不用課了啊，川普都沒有收關稅了。川普現在多proud、多麼驕傲地說我課關稅已經課了一千多億美金！如果都是美國人幫它付，他為什麼講這種話？對不對？我請教一個，今天其實更重要的主題在這裡。主權基金你是主管單位對吧？主權基金。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不是主管單位。"],["賴委員士葆：是喔，怎麼不是？你google一下，國發會是主管單位喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們只是現在在評估，負責評估而已。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你什麼時候可以把草案送到行政院？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在正在訪談幾個主要國家的主權基金，因為這裡面非常複雜，我們必須很慎重地處理。"],["賴委員士葆：大概、給我們時間表，什麼時候可以送到行政院？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們目前的看法就是我們寧願做很好的準備，而不是有時間表。我們現在正在排到幾個國家去拜訪，請教他們的作法是什麼，因為它必須，第一個……"],["賴委員士葆：草案有沒有可能在今年底出來？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們還要一層一層地上報，看看這樣的準備夠不夠。但是我跟您報告，很重要的就是它如何能夠被監管的情況下又有自由的……"],["賴委員士葆：外界高度質疑你這個主權基金，為什麼？原來民進黨政府是反對的，突然同意了，因為主要都是要投資美國，送過去美國那裡。最後一點我要跟你講一個東西，川普講的，那是我們美國的錢啊，日本對美國5,500億，所以我給它15%；歐盟6,000億；南韓3,500億美金，那是美國的錢，就很像職棒簽約的簽約金，那是它的money結果我們為了拚面子，我們為了要跟韓國、日本一樣便宜5%，我們每一年賣到美國只有1,160億，很多了，省5%，省60億美金。為了省60億美金，外傳要給4,000億美金。它要臺灣對美投資4,000億美金，這是extra的喔！不算在你這裡面的，你怎麼講？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個數據我不知道從哪裡來的，所以我沒辦法comment。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體一堆講4,000億換5%，變成15%，怎麼樣變15%？我是覺得20%就認了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒辦法對於……"],["賴委員士葆：不要省這個東西，因為……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒辦法對未經證實的數據來做comment，抱歉。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，我再跟你強調，如果你剛剛講的是對的，都有辦法轉嫁的話，川普就不必課這個稅啦！都是美國人在付錢，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我剛才講企業一定會去商量。"],["賴委員士葆：不是這樣子啦，隨便講講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我剛剛用的是商量。"],["賴委員士葆：我再跟你強調，日本5,500億、歐盟6,000億、南韓3,500億，川普說那是美國的錢、那是my money，美國的錢，是美國的錢，所以不管臺灣投資多少都是它拿走的，我們為了拼這個，我覺得寧願20%，就20%吧！其實20%衝擊很大啦，你現在來講什麼大利多，我光聽就暈了，什麼利多？對那一些在美國設廠的晶片廠也好、半導體廠也好，是利多；但是沒有設的人以及對我們下一代的就業機會是很大的傷害！我要跟你強調這一點，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，有些地方也許彼此有誤解，我下次再跟您報告，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請李坤城委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳超明","邱志偉","賴士葆","李坤城","呂玉玲","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","廖先翔","葉元之","蔡易餘","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":437,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就「美國對等關稅底定後，我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈\n局新規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147101_00010"}}},{"id":"163413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b94f33fef75dca07df789cec5dbd9ef0650394dc758d122e310754f09c682f03845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:20:23 - 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有請部長請鄭部長 貝子荀 謝謝國教署長 市議司長委員好麻煩署長 市長也準備 謝謝"},{"start":21.463,"end":36.231,"text":"今天委員會有一個主題叫做關心全國中小學教師人力不足的問題那恰巧趙偉在昨天也有排了一場偏鄉教育條例修法的公聽會"},{"start":37.711,"end":56.763,"text":"那在這個當中呢有很多的委員有提出修法版本那我個人也有修法版本其中呢有一個部分是被討論的就是關於第七條跟第八條那這個第七條第八條我想先請教一下部長您有沒有聽過專聘教師"},{"start":61.755,"end":84.505,"text":"由地方來考試的一個代理老師我跟部長說明一下在偏鄉教育條例有出現一個名詞叫專聘教師那什麼叫專聘教師呢就是由教育主管機關他辦的聯合甄選出來的代理教師叫專聘教師就不會出現代理兩個字"},{"start":85.726,"end":104.674,"text":"那他是專門為我們偏鄉來設計他比一般代理教師多一點點薪水而且他可以無限的長期續聘所以這個叫做專聘教師可是部長您知不知道將近八年來 就是推動七年多來"},{"start":106.11,"end":126.747,"text":"全國只有哪裡有專聘教師呢澎湖縣只有澎湖縣有那為什麼會這樣可能是當時法條的一個疏漏啦因為他特別提到呢要由縣市政府來辦理聯合甄選結果呢只有澎湖縣有在辦"},{"start":127.808,"end":145.515,"text":"大部分的縣市都是用學校自辦所以就產生了這個問題因此我們就想要修法因為我們總是希望這一條的美意就是要讓這些代理教師我們希望他精進我們希望他從無證變有證"},{"start":147.856,"end":167.251,"text":"但是他也不是不想有證啊因為他地處偏遠他要去進修要花很長的地理時間而且呢也要花自己的錢可是我們偏鄉教育條例的美意是說全額補助這些專聘教師服務滿三年四學期可以全額補助進修師北"},{"start":168.872,"end":187.787,"text":"所以這個美意就沒有被用到因此呢我們就想要修第七條嘛我們想要放寬專聘教師的資格讓學校自辦的也可以嘛可是呢昨天呢出現一個插曲我們的教育行政機關的研究員呢他可能沒有搞清楚他認為呢修這個啊"},{"start":190.789,"end":217.898,"text":"是要來降低偏鄉的師資的數值他說這是走回頭路他說我們的教育沒有未來這樣怎麼辦所以呢我們只是提醒說其實第七條第八條他必須要來修的原因是因為就是要解決教師偏鄉教師的問題所以呢很好這個本來就是教育部既有的政策因為在你們的業報上也有提到"},{"start":219.018,"end":239.845,"text":"擴大開設各類學士後教育學分班對準偏遠地區需求這邊的解方有像114學年度有合訂這個班別有10個師培在做10個班那每班招收45名所以這個部分是有的"},{"start":240.385,"end":262.776,"text":"但是我要請部長看一下這邊有一個就是成績通知書在網路上熱烈討論為什麼被熱烈討論呢因為學生的成績這位是被取第74名他的成績是高於正取生的錄取標準"},{"start":263.715,"end":282.675,"text":"他的書審資料還有他的計劃書他的成績都是高於正取的這個錄取標準可是他的結果是被取74名那為什麼會產生這樣的問題因為我們可以回頭過來看我們當然可以理解"},{"start":283.536,"end":297.102,"text":"他的一個美意是說我們開這個班就是希望在偏遠地區已經待課很多年的老師可以趕快回來所以他的錄取一他是以服務年資為優先"},{"start":298.823,"end":316.756,"text":"所以你只要服務年資高的,大概你就算書審成績比人家不好,他可能也都可以錄取但是我們看到這時間失陪大學,只有屏東大學呢,他是把書審面試,他有做加權計分"},{"start":318.237,"end":337.672,"text":"其他的九所呢就是幾乎年資高就可以錄取那這樣子讓很多人就會討論什麼呢那要我們送計畫書書面資料是為了走辛酸的嗎還是走一個表面的流程的嗎所以呢這個部分我相信我們看到"},{"start":338.513,"end":354.454,"text":"有這麼多的人來報名表示我們還是很有希望的很多的老師還是願意去取得證照去透過這樣的師培去偏鄉教書那我們只是希望說這個部分能夠去稍微做檢討"},{"start":355.695,"end":369.992,"text":"那另外呢 這個代理教師我們看到這個前兩年的數據出來他的離職率是高達57%而且呢 大多都是在3到5年內他就會離開 就會夭折"},{"start":372.675,"end":399.827,"text":"所以這個偏鄉學士後的學分班我覺得就是為了要協助這一群在偏鄉教學的主力讓他無證變有證所以這個部分我除了說我們應該教育部是不是來檢討帶大家來檢討之外那是不是去掌握我們偏鄉學士後這些學分班進修的資格人數那個部長請您來說明一下"},{"start":402.032,"end":415.182,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒確實如果只是按照年資我想應該有一個更像剛才舉例的屏東大學還加上一個這個書審對 加權幾分相對是比較適當的或者說應該以書審的成績為優先然後在書審成績相同的時候排序考慮年資進來我想這當然有許多的這個辦法標準我想我們內部再來"},{"start":431.214,"end":446.564,"text":"這個討論演繹那另外也跟委員報告我們我進來以後也希望這一個這一個施施培醫師裡面他們也開始在改變許多考慮如委員所說的偏鄉的老師帶老師他要白天或者晚上來"},{"start":447.904,"end":475.809,"text":"這個師培單位大學裡面去進修教育學問那是不可能的所以我們現在開始折騰許多的理論性的課程是用線上來學習讓偏鄉的老師代理老師他在他自己的學校裡他不需要下山出來到市區去接受教育那有一些實作的在安排在寒暑假類似這樣的一個課程上的一個設計我想我們都願意來做許多的一些努力希望能夠留住"},{"start":476.369,"end":492.851,"text":"也同時能夠讓偏鄉老師能夠有一個更好的教學品質謝謝部長我們最主要是看到教育部提出這個政策之後偏鄉學士候學分班從它的一個報名的情形來看我們感覺到是很樂觀很振奮的"},{"start":494.873,"end":517.91,"text":"表示我們的偏鄉還是有人願意投入所以呢我們很珍惜這一塊的人所以特別希望教育部在這次招生結束後能夠去關心調查一下各校招生的錄取狀況跟他的數據那我辦公室也很想了解那也希望說我們要網羅住這一些還有熱情投入的老師們那做一個"},{"start":518.73,"end":546.389,"text":"新進的座談會廣納偏鄉這些第一線老師的意見那作為未來的政策的一個改善的一個依據好嗎那另外我在你們的夜報也看到另外一個解方就是有提到說會提供一個就是原語文領域本土語文原住民語文專長班招收25名那事實上這個也是有上新聞因為很多人關心為什麼因為"},{"start":548.63,"end":567.41,"text":"他好不容易讀完了取證了但是沒有縣市開缺也是讀心酸的啦那像台東大學他們也是覺得很對孩子很不好意思那在這個部分呢其實我來了解的就是"},{"start":568.431,"end":591.562,"text":"其實是縣市政府不太理解 也不太喜歡開學因為像這種原住民 他叫作族語教師啦就是正式的老師 也不是代理教師 也不是族語專長教師他就是語文老師 正式的老師那問題是說 他現在他讀了四年 取得師培的這些學分"},{"start":592.242,"end":614.999,"text":"然後呢他要一年要考過高級族語認證一年內等於他花了五年取證結果呢沒有縣市政府開缺然後呢地方呢又希望說希望他們有第二專長尤其是國中所以他又要回頭去修第二專長然後呢好不容易花了幾年修完了又不確定有沒有人願意開缺"},{"start":616.835,"end":636.943,"text":"所以這種缺其實對地方政府來講我知道教育部國教署都有去開過協調但是他們不知道這種缺因為他上不滿所以很多學校我們當然理解我們最終的目標就是希望學校的這些正式的一般教師他具備足語的能力"},{"start":637.883,"end":659.347,"text":"這是我們最高的目標那但是呢我們發現當他只有單一這樣的主語的一個教師的時候其實對學校來講他不太容易去開這個缺所以呢這個部分我也是在提醒說是不是再去做一個更完善的規劃希望這個部分要再了解來 部長"},{"start":660.616,"end":673.981,"text":"謝謝委員指教 確實今年取得主語認證的資格有七位國教署也非常努力你們協調之後終於有一個學校開圈 大王國中目前也開了兩個圈 我想詳細的請博士長補充說明"},{"start":681.203,"end":685.065,"text":"好 謝謝 署長請簡單用10秒跟您報告那今年經過協調本來都沒有開圈至少有兩個縣市有開圈那我想說它可能有合併那個技術還不是很成熟的問題所以它的結束可能在找合併的主辦學校或是整個縣市的簡章中的分類這些技術面的問題有今年的經驗之後明年應該會更好好 謝謝"},{"start":704.412,"end":727.655,"text":"所以這個政策面技術面希望能夠規劃好那我還有一個問題就是你們的解方三就是促進在職教師留任有一個叫做資商輔導支持系統那因為我的時間也到我就快速講就是教育部有這個教師資商輔導支持中心那我不曉得是說你們有沒有掌握到目前上路之後的使用率"},{"start":728.195,"end":749.685,"text":"但是我們卻因為近幾年爛速的風氣校事會議造成很多的老師他們感受到壓力很大所以呢有很多老師他很希望來使用那這個支持中心他是在做媒合心理師那有一些老師是覺得說一年六次不夠用啦希望能夠增加"},{"start":750.585,"end":770.372,"text":"那我是覺得說增加到一次兩次變成七次八次都沒有關係但是至少要讓教師感受到教育部是支持的那不曉得部長對這個意見我想這個謝謝委員提醒我們確實國教署這邊我們樂觀其成我們也會支持那至於地方的部分我們會跟地方來溝通協調"},{"start":772.774,"end":779.14,"text":"謝謝 那主席再給我一分鐘不好意思 我想要請教一下那個因為談到輔導諮商我想要請問那個張師大的一個輔導諮商所的一個問題那我簡單講因為談到這個輔導諮商我想不論是柴師大或張師大他們都是失陪體系所以讓我們覺得非常嚴重"},{"start":794.136,"end":820.428,"text":"第二個他們都是用學術做網子然後呢都有權威性而且是長期的問題那現在爆開來所以呢對我們來講這個教育部可能要去很審慎的來救一些部分重新去做檢討怎麼會讓一個輔導諮商的助人工作者有的變加害者有的變被害者我覺得這個是很諷刺的一個事情那現在因為有的是在"},{"start":821.428,"end":844.173,"text":"在校生有的是已經畢業生所以呢有的是用性騷防治法處理有的是用性平法處理但是呢像這個性騷我們看到它其實是一種權勢性騷可是彰化縣政府就只有裁罰三萬元所以這個部分我覺得有很多要討論然後在我們的性平法"},{"start":844.793,"end":859.951,"text":"跟這個性騷防治法中間的空窗漏洞我們如何讓每一個人都能夠被接住我想這個部分呢也是我們要去討論的齁那我現在是要救教育部的部分就是因為張師大呢"},{"start":861.653,"end":887.039,"text":"他可能在回應的方面沒有很積極他的態度是很消極所以導致呢學生還成立自救的一個救濟平台然後在這個救濟平台當中呢很多的me too就我也是我也是就發現了越來越多的老師所以這是一個長期的一個問題所以呢我們就是特別希望說教育部要主動的還是要介入監督那包括像這個"},{"start":887.819,"end":915.388,"text":"很多的事情發生之後最好的方法就是退休啊我就回家啦我可以避免遇到很多的問題那這個部分我們教育部要怎麼去設計老師的倫理規範然後呢包括這一些記錄性評的記錄那他的一個升等的聘任審查的機制那怎麼樣提供學校的一個支持系統怎麼去要求學校我想這個都要全面的來討論那我們也希望能夠得到一個報告部長可以嗎"},{"start":918.313,"end":920.159,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員質詢 官員請回座我們接下來在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時20分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還有國教署長、師藝司長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["主席：麻煩署長、司長也準備，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。今天委員會有一個主題叫作關心全國中小學教師人力不足的問題，恰巧召委在昨天也有排了一場偏鄉教育條例修法的公聽會，在這當中有很多委員提出修法版本，我個人也有修法版本，其中有一個部分是被討論的，就是關於第七條及第八條，就第七條及第八條，我想先請教一下部長，您有沒有聽過專聘教師？"],["鄭部長英耀：由地方來考試聘任的代理老師。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我跟部長說明一下，在偏鄉教育條例有出現一個名詞叫專聘教師，什麼叫專聘教師呢？就是由教育主管機關所辦的聯合徵選出來的代理教師叫專聘教師，不會出現「代理」兩個字，是專門為偏鄉設計，比一般代理教師多一點點薪水，而且可以無限長期續聘，所以這叫作專聘教師。可是部長您知不知道將近八年來，就是推動七年多來，全國只有哪裡有專聘教師呢？澎湖縣，只有澎湖縣有，為什麼會這樣？可能是當時法條的一個疏漏，因為它特別提到要由縣市政府辦理聯合徵選，結果只有澎湖縣有辦，大部分的縣市都是用學校自辦，所以就產生了這個問題，因此我們就想要修法，因為我們總是希望這條的美意就是要讓這些代理教師，我們希望他精進，我們希望他從無證變有證，但是他也不是不想有證啊！因為他地處偏遠，他去進修要花很長的地理時間，而且也要花自己的錢。可是偏鄉教育條例的美意是說全額補助這些專聘教師，服務滿三年四學期可以全額補助進修師培，所以這個美意就沒有被用到，因此我們就想要修第七條，放寬專聘教師的資格，讓學校自辦的也可以嘛！","可是昨天出現一個插曲，我們教育行政機關的研究員他可能沒有搞清楚，他認為修這個是要降低偏鄉師資的素質，他說這是走回頭路，說我們的教育沒有未來，這樣怎麼辦？所以我們只是提醒，其實第七條、第八條必須要修的原因是因為要解決偏鄉教師的問題，所以很好，這個本來就是教育部既有的政策，因為在你們的業報上也有提到「擴大開設各類學士後教育學分班，對準偏遠地區需求」，這邊的解方像114學年度有核定班別，有10個師培班，每班招收45名，所以這個部分是有的。","但是我要請部長看一下，這邊有一個成績通知書在網路上熱烈討論，為什麼被熱烈討論呢？因為學生的成績，這位是備取第74名，他的成績是高於正取生的錄取標準，他的書審資料還有他的計畫書、成績都是高於正取的錄取標準，可是結果他是備取74名，為什麼會產生這樣的問題？我們可以回頭來看，我們當然可以理解它的美意是，開這個班就是希望在偏遠地區已經代課很多年的老師可以趕快回來，所以他的錄取是以服務年資為優先，所以你只要服務年資高就算書審成績比人家不好，可能也都可以錄取。但是我們看到這10間師培大學，只有屏東大學是有把書審、面試做加權計分，其他的9所學校幾乎是年資高就可以錄取，這樣讓很多人就會討論什麼呢？那要他們送計畫書、書面資料是為了走辛酸的嗎？還是走一個表面流程嗎？所以這個部分，我相信我們看到有這麼多的人報名表示還是很有希望的，很多老師還是願意取得證照，透過這樣的師培去偏鄉教書，那我們只是希望這個部分能夠稍微做檢討。","另外，我們看到代理教師前兩年的數據，離職率高達57%，而且大多都是在3到5年內就會離開、就會夭折，所以偏鄉學士後學分班我覺得就是為了要協助這一群在偏鄉教學的主力，讓他無證變有證，所以這個部分教育部除了應該帶大家來檢討之外，是不是也要掌握偏鄉學士後學分班進修的資格人數？部長，請您來說明一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實如果只是按照年資，我想應該有一個……像剛才舉例的屏東大學還加上書審……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，加權計分。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這相對是比較適當的，或者說應該以書審成績為優先，然後在書審成績相同的時候排序，考慮年資進來，我想這當然有許多的辦法、標準，我們內部再來討論研議。另外也跟委員報告，我進來以後，師資培育司也開始改變許多，考慮如委員所說的，偏鄉的老師、代理老師白天或者晚上要去師培單位、大學進修教育學分，那是不可能的，所以我們現在開始責成許多理論性課程採用線上學習，讓偏鄉的老師、代理老師在他自己的學校裡，不需要下山到市區去接受教育，有一些實作再安排在寒暑假，類似這樣的課程設計，我想我們都願意來做許多的努力，希望能夠留住，同時也讓偏鄉老師能夠有更好的教學品質、更專業，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長，我們最主要是看到教育部提出這個政策之後，偏鄉學士後學分班從它的報名情形來看，我們感覺到很樂觀、很振奮，表示偏鄉還是有人願意投入，所以我們很珍惜這一塊的人，特別希望教育部在這次招生結束後，能夠去關心、調查一下各校招生的錄取狀況及數據，我辦公室也很想了解，希望我們要網羅住這些還有熱情投入的老師們，召開精進座談會，廣納偏鄉這些第一線老師的意見，作為未來政策改善的依據，好嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：另外，我在你們的業報也看到另外一個解方，就是提到會提供一個「語文領域本土語文─原住民語文專長班」，招收25名，事實上這個也是有上新聞，因為很多人關心，為什麼？因為他好不容易讀完了、取證了，但是沒有縣市開缺，也是讀心酸的，像臺東大學他們也是覺得對孩子很不好意思，在這個部分我了解的就是，其實是縣市政府不太理解，也不太喜歡開缺，因為像這種是叫做族語教師，就是正式的老師，也不是代理教師，也不是族語專長教師，他就是語文老師，是正式的老師。現在問題是，他讀了4年，取得師培的這些學分，然後他要在1年內考過高級族語認證，等於他花了5年取證，結果卻沒有縣市政府開缺，地方又希望他們有第二專長，尤其是國中，所以他又要回頭去修第二專長，好不容易花了幾年修完了，又不確定有沒有人願意開缺，所以這種缺其實對地方政府來講……我知道教育部國教署都有去開過協調會，但是他們不知道這種缺……因為他上不滿，所以很多學校……我們當然理解，我們最終的目標就是希望學校這些正式的一般教師具備族語的能力，這是我們最高的目標，但我們發現，當只有單一這樣的族語教師，其實對於學校來講不太容易去開這個缺，因此這個部分我也要再提醒是不是再去做一個更完善的規劃，希望這個部分要再了解，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員指教，確實今年取得族語教師認證資格的有7位，國教署也非常努力，因為我們本來這個師資的比例……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有，你們協調之後，終於有一個學校開缺：大王國中。"],["鄭部長英耀：目前開了兩個缺，我想詳細的部分是不是請彭署長補充說明？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，署長請。"],["彭署長富源：簡單用10秒跟您報告，今年經過協調，本來都沒有開缺，現在至少有兩個縣市有開缺，我想它可能在合聘部分的技術面還不是很成熟，所以結束可能再找合聘的主辦學校，或是整個縣市的簡章中的分類，這些技術面的問題，有今年的經驗之後，明年應該會更好。謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。所以這部分在政策面、技術面希望能夠規劃好。","我還有一個問題，就是你們的解方三，促進在職教師留任有一個叫做諮商輔導支持系統，因為我的時間也到了，我就快速講，就是教育部有這個教師諮商輔導支持中心，我不曉得你們有沒有掌握到上路之後的使用率，但是因為近幾年濫訴的風氣，校事會議造成很多老師感受到壓力很大，所以有很多老師很希望來使用，這個支持中心是在做媒合心理師，有一些老師是覺得一年6次不夠用，希望能夠增加，我是覺得增加1次、2次，變成7次、8次都沒有關係，但是至少要讓教師感受到教育部是支持的，不曉得部長對於這個部分的意見？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，國教署這邊我們樂觀其成，我們也會支持，至於地方的部分，我們會跟地方來溝通協調。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。主席，再給我1分鐘，不好意思。","因為談到輔導諮商，我想要請問有關彰師大輔導諮商所的一個問題，我簡單講，因為談到輔導諮商，我想不論是臺師大或彰師大都是師培體系，所以讓我們覺得非常嚴重；第二個，他們都是用學術做幌子，都有權威性，而且是長期的問題，現在爆出來。所以對我們來講，教育部可能要很審慎地就一些部分重新去做檢討，怎麼會讓一個輔導諮商的助人工作者，有的變加害者、有的變被害者，我覺得這是很諷刺的事情，現在因為有的是在校生，有的已經是畢業生，所以有的是用性騷擾防治法處理，有的是用性平法處理，但是像這樣的性騷，我們看到這其實是一種權勢性騷，可是彰化縣政府就只有裁罰3萬元，所以這個部分我覺得有很多要討論的。另外，在性平法跟性騷擾防治法中間的空窗、漏洞，我們如何讓每一個人都能夠被接住？我想這個部分也是我們要去討論的。","我現在是要就教育部的部分，因為彰師大可能在回應方面沒有很積極，它的態度是很消極，導致學生還成立自救的救濟平臺，在這個救濟平臺當中就有很多的「#MeToo」說我也是、我也是，就發現了越來越多的老師，所以這是一個長期的問題。因此我們特別希望教育部要主動介入監督，包括很多事情發生之後，最好的方法就是退休，我就回家了，我可以避免遇到很多問題，這個部分教育部要怎麼去設計老師的倫理規範？包括這些紀錄，像是性平的紀錄，還有他的升等聘任審查機制，以及怎麼樣提供學校的支持系統、怎麼去要求學校？我想這都要全面來討論，我們也希望能夠得到一個報告，部長，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，官員請回座。我們接下來在吳沛憶委員之後休息5分鐘。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b9158b7b656f9f68a170dc6911ab88c3aa0394dc758d122e31340600c8c0d0f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:12:04 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第二个是半导体相关的像晶圆这些"},{"start":111.707,"end":129.941,"text":"我認為應該,這個我們還在查證,那理論上應該是在Semi-conduct如果只有CHIPS,那當然比較簡單,對不對中美金然後聯電,那麼都是,不管是先進製程或成熟製程中美金不是CHIPS,它是WAFER的但是因為它也在,它就算有,它也在美國都有設廠"},{"start":131.343,"end":150.804,"text":"所以股票市場的反應解讀就是我們針對這些CHIPS部分我們獲得關稅的豁免零關稅其他國家要100%關稅所以今天股市才大漲600在某些產品上台積電相關的成熟製程跟先進資產那如果半導體的話你怎麼解讀"},{"start":153.117,"end":168.727,"text":"半導體的解讀,我想這個還是要去,這可能要看一下美方的定義因為一般來講它會有一個定義在後面因為它還沒有正式公告,這是它的預公告它的正式公告會針對Semiconductor它會有註解"},{"start":175.251,"end":187.723,"text":"然後它是大概是100%大概是100%對不對對所以這個我們後續觀察也是很重要對於這次這個國會有沒有談判代表"},{"start":189.997,"end":213.672,"text":"國會的成員有沒有參與所以現在暫時限制關稅20%那當然日本跟韓國也經過暫時限制關稅然後最後再降到15%越南也是你要搭配投資搭配開放市場大概用這種方式所以才從20%降到15%那你看一下"},{"start":214.492,"end":243.772,"text":"這個日本跟韓國的這個整體的GDP跟我們對美國的貿易利差來看日本GDP是台灣的大概五倍那韓國也大概是台灣的兩倍沒有錯嘛那雖然我們對美國的貿易順差大概739億日本對美貿易順差685韓國660差距也不大但因為我們GDP的規模分別是日本的五分之一韓國的二分之一"},{"start":244.612,"end":251.919,"text":"那如果用台灣跟日本韓國的經驗來看韓國要投資5500億然後韓國要3500億之前我們有行政部門官員說4000億他已經有澄清過了不管是用國家的預算去購買或者是我們開放國內市場等等我認為"},{"start":269.554,"end":279.573,"text":"我們降到15%的機會是蠻大的而且我們開放或者是採購的金額啊應當不至於比照美國比照日本跟韓國因為你從GDP的水平來看"},{"start":281.411,"end":310.319,"text":"跟人口數來看韓國人口是台灣的兩倍對 也是2.2倍人口是台灣的五倍對所以整體的影響經濟規模不一樣所以你用同樣的標準去看這個我用常識來判斷應當是不屬於有那麼高的金額我的看法跟委員接近那我們唯一就是說我們的出口金額跟逆差是稍微不那麼高多了也沒有多很多跟日本韓國也沒有增加很多大概多了"},{"start":311.68,"end":336.761,"text":"50億左右當然這個我們希望說盡快最終的這個會不會簽協議就是說台美之間針對關稅會有最終的協議因為美國跟日本是沒有白紙黑字協議是沒有白紙黑字所以沒有白紙黑字會造成說它的有效性的問題或者執行性的問題"},{"start":338.424,"end":366.473,"text":"沒錯 因為他有之前川普有說過嘛他會看你的執行表現嘛對 因為他是一個動態的所以沒有白紙黑字白紙黑字是一個正式的協議它有在有效的執行的這個期程或者在執行的這個程序嘛但你沒有白紙黑字不管是日本或者是南韓到目前談的最終的稅率都沒有白紙黑字嘛那台灣是不是也是如此呢這個我就不清楚了"},{"start":368.386,"end":378.937,"text":"我想韓日都是這樣子我們大概也是這樣子所以會造成說未來執行面我們還值得去觀察因為沒有白紙黑字做一個基礎"},{"start":381.581,"end":398.437,"text":"那另外這個當然不管是匯率啦或者是關稅的不確定性啦這扣建產業是相當的這個辛苦台灣以前是扣建產業全球第三大全三大的生產基地特別是在這個我的選區在岡山這個陸竹"},{"start":401.539,"end":415.414,"text":"所以是一個全球最大的螺絲生產機率之一我最近聽到很多扣薪業者跟我很多抱怨就是說第一個匯率的影響第二個關稅的影響對他們這個不僅沒有辦法賺錢而且還虧損虧損到沒有辦法繼續經營下去"},{"start":420.902,"end":447.952,"text":"也逼得也許要外移這種情況我們對國化合會有很大的期待要協調各部會能夠比照我們大概三年前在疫情的時候對扣接應的協助包括貸款的展延或者是新增的融資貸款協助產業周轉資金面很大的問題"},{"start":449.414,"end":451.53,"text":"他沒有銷售就沒有收入嘛"},{"start":453.155,"end":479.786,"text":"所以這部分我期待是不是國會能夠見急旅急能夠針對這些跨部會的這需要協助的部分能夠來國會來召集會議不管是經管會或者經濟部這個我們來努力看看那我想也表達一下我想委員應該也看到我們總統跟院長很在意這個產業多次帶著經濟部去跟業者溝通那經濟部長"},{"start":480.886,"end":494.077,"text":"日前也才跟業者又有座談那我們會找經濟部來看看他們有沒有什麼樣的需求就像如果是貨款等等重點是座談之後要拿出具體的做法讓產業能夠繼續穩定繼續成長"},{"start":498.4,"end":507.85,"text":"後面的做法就是要由國發會來統籌這個座談的結論然後去執行提出可行的規劃跟方案去執行我們去了解我們來努力看看"},{"start":513.638,"end":537.048,"text":"所以包括有專業雜誌啊 他有很多的政策建言他去針對台灣目前十大產值 可能會萎縮最大的十大產值的產業啊包括這個傳統製造業 他產值要萎縮大概2500億衝擊大概兩萬家的廠商 而且這兩萬家的廠商都是中小企業 都集中在中南部 對不對"},{"start":539.324,"end":560.346,"text":"這種需要政府相關的作為來協助的部分包括涵蓋四大的策略十一項作為這些作為這些期待都是業界座談所提出來的訴求我期待這部分是不是可以請國發會能夠針對這些企業界所提出來的訴求提出這相對應的方案"},{"start":561.086,"end":577.518,"text":"來整合各部會提出相對應的方案讓業界能夠安心因為經濟部已經提出來了在分工上面因為這個地方是分在經濟部我們在中長期的所以我們是協助轉型的部分我們會一起來做"},{"start":578.999,"end":607.023,"text":"那委員有這個要求我就來找經濟部談一下因為我一直期待說國安會應該是財經小內閣來整合相關的財經部門應該是國安會的這個執掌嘛因為你們在宏觀調控的能力嘛那你經濟部也許不能指揮財政部但是你國安會可以站在這個宏觀經濟宏觀調控的角度來看去可以協調相關部會我是覺得應該國安會要扮演更積極的功能"},{"start":608.41,"end":634.992,"text":"我們來論一下 因為這個有一個分工那我們會來按照委員的指示我們來論剛剛有委員提到就是說台積電的技術外洩當然技術外洩我們當然很慎重來看這個關於先進製程的我們的這個幾米當然是非常重要特別是2奈米當然這個是很專業的那畢竟這個技術外洩這是一個事實沒有錯嘛"},{"start":636.246,"end":651.607,"text":"是一个事实然后他的外泄的对象也是一个确定嘛是的那台日我不是期待台日半导体能够合作能够合作那如果是这样子的话变成一个恶性竞争的关系啊"},{"start":652.663,"end":673.089,"text":"會不會讓台日過去半導體的合作方向會造成一些影響甚至對台積電這個2奈米的製程的競爭力會不會或者後續的營收會不會有相關的衝擊我想台積電這個公司有這個責任向董事會做個說明"},{"start":674.866,"end":702.268,"text":"我們在下一次董事會他們會針對整個案情進行說明因為目前還在查證調查中那目前從我的角度來看他檢調進來了然後國科會進來了那已經在整個安全性是止血了那現在是要把他的動機跟目的那這些人的背後的動機跟目的是來自於誰那目前必須查清楚才能確定"},{"start":703.109,"end":731.011,"text":"那我們也不能說現在就去就會把他指向是哪一個哪一個國家哪一個我們會讓檢調跟國會我想這個國安會或者諸位你也持續關注後續的這個處理情形另外這個先進製程我比較不擔心就加上有今天記者會他所說的承諾他們所說的承諾但我比較相對關心相對擔心的是成熟製程說實在大概在中國大概他"},{"start":731.832,"end":756.762,"text":"可以掌握百分之五成的這個成熟製程的市場所以台灣也有很多成熟製程的這個廠商 對不對那成熟製程我看這個百分之百的關稅豁免呃 剋制百分之百的關稅是針對中國是劍指中國 我認為啦劍指中國是什麼 成熟製程這成熟製程它佔百分之五十趴的這個市佔率"},{"start":758.038,"end":785.817,"text":"因為這個中國的城中市也沒有在美國設廠戶你要輸美國你就課百分之百台灣有些城中市的人有有些沒有對台灣城中市的人也會造成影響我想城中市政府也請國安會先去做一些了解今天早上就有因為要來這裡所以我已經傳訊息給到工協會我們希望他們再評估看看"},{"start":786.597,"end":806.67,"text":"因為我的從直覺來看Global Fungi會占到一些優勢那如果誰跟他有一點客戶衝突的話那他這個評估我們希望他盡快評估出來那其他的部分的話我們也請他們評估因為在第一次的討論裡面大家是認為只要大家都一樣長一樣的話影響力就沒有那麼大"},{"start":807.35,"end":824.422,"text":"委員在扣減業也有聽到如果大家都50%的時候我們扣減業就還算比較擔心反而是匯率的問題對不對所以我們現在正在收集這個部分好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時12分）謝謝主席，有請劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：主委早安、主委辛苦了。今天台股早上大漲600點，最主要的利多因素是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要是這次晶片的關稅對我們比較有利。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼會比較有利？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們幾個主要的大廠，像台積電、中美晶在美國都有設廠；有些像聯電等，在美國也都有相關的合作。再來這個部分是全球一致的稅率，就像我們之前是零關稅一樣的概念。"],["邱委員志偉：對，所以我們是零關稅？其他國家沒有設廠的，或者沒有設廠計畫的，就課100%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對！"],["邱委員志偉：我看了一下它的原文，這是針對CHIPS，100%的稅率；CHIPS跟SEMICONDUCTORS、晶片跟半導體，對不對？但半導體中，裸晶片還是半導體的相關產品是不是也包括，它也沒有說明清楚。您從這張的文字、它的原文來看，是「CHIPS」還有「SEMICONDUCTORS」。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它有提到「SEMICONDUCTORS」，所以就可以解釋得比較寬一點。"],["邱委員志偉：只要IT終端產品裡面有包括半導體、有包括晶片，這些算不算呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：CHIPS是明確的定義；第二個則是半導體相關的像晶圓等等，這個我們還在查證，理論上應該是包含在SEMICONDUCTORS。"],["邱委員志偉：如果只有CHIPS，當然比較簡單，中美晶然後聯電都是，不管是先進製程或成熟製程……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：中美晶不是CHIPS，它是Wafer的，就算它不是，它在美國也都有設廠。"],["邱委員志偉：所以解讀股票市場的反應，針對這些CHIPS的部分，我們獲得關稅的豁免、零關稅，其他國家則是要100%的關稅，所以今天股市才大漲600點？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：在某些產品上，台積電相關的，成熟製程跟先進製程……"],["邱委員志偉：如果是半導體的話，你怎麼解讀呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於半導體的解讀，我想這可能要看一下美方的定義，因為一般來講，會有一個定義在後面，因為它還沒有正式公告，這是它的預公告。"],["邱委員志偉：是他參加一個記者會所做的一個口頭說明！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它的正式公告中針對SEMICONDUCTORS，會有註解，然後那個註解會讓我們更清楚。"],["邱委員志偉：它大概是100%，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我們後續的觀察也是很重要。請問這次國發會有沒有成員擔任談判代表？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們沒有參與，而是由院跟談判辦公室……。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在是暫時性關稅20%，當然日本跟韓國也經過暫時性關稅，最後再降到15%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：越南也是。"],["邱委員志偉：這還要搭配投資、搭配開放市場，大概是用這兩種方式，所以才從20%降到15%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：就日本跟韓國整體的GDP，跟我們對美國的貿易逆差來看，日本GDP大概是臺灣的5倍；韓國大概是臺灣的兩倍多。雖然我們對美國的貿易順差大概是739億；日本對美貿易順差685億；韓國660億，現在差距也不大，但因為我們GDP的規模分別是日本的五分之一、韓國的二分之一，如果用日本、韓國的經驗來看，日本要投資5,500億；韓國是3,500億，之前我們有行政部門官員說要4,000億，但是後來他已經澄清過了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，那個是澄清過的。"],["邱委員志偉：不管是用國家的預算去購買或者是我們開放國內市場等等，我認為我們降到15%的機會是滿大的，而且我們的開放或者是採購的金額，應當不至於比照日本跟韓國，因為從GDP的水平來看，還有從人口數來看，韓國的人口數是臺灣的兩倍……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，2.2倍。"],["邱委員志偉：日本的人口數是臺灣的5倍。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以理論上……"],["邱委員志偉：整體的影響會因經濟規模而不一樣，所以用同樣的標準去看，我用常識來判斷，應當是不至於有那麼高的金額。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的看法跟委員接近，唯一就是我們的出口金額跟逆差是稍微不那麼高啦！"],["邱委員志偉：多了一點，但也沒有多很多，跟日本、韓國相較也沒有增加很多，大概多了50億左右。","再來是會不會簽協議？就是臺美之間針對關稅會不會有最終的協議？因為美國跟日本是沒有簽白紙黑字的協議。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有白紙黑字會造成它的有效性的問題或者執行性的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，因為川普有說過，他還會看你的執行表現。"],["邱委員志偉：對，所以它是一個動態的，白紙黑字是一個正式的協議，是有所謂有效的日期、要執行的期程或者要執行的程序。但若沒有白紙黑字，不管是日本或者是南韓，到目前談的最終稅率都沒有白紙黑字，那臺灣是不是也是如此呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我就不清楚了。"],["邱委員志偉：若韓日都是這樣子，我們大概也是這樣子，所以未來在執行面上，還是值得去觀察，因為是以沒有白紙黑字作為一個基礎。","另外，當然不管是匯率或者是關稅的不確定性，扣件產業是相當辛苦的。臺灣以前是扣件產業全球前三大生產基地，特別是在我的選區岡山、路竹，是全球最大的螺絲生產基地之一。我最近聽到很多扣件業者跟我有很多的抱怨，第一個，匯率的影響；第二個，關稅的影響，他們不僅沒有辦法賺錢，而且還虧損到沒有辦法繼續經營下去，甚至逼得也許要外移。對於這種情況，我們對國發會有很大的期待，你們要協調各部會，希望能夠比照大概3年前疫情時對扣件業者的協助，包括貸款的展延、薪資的融資貸款、協助產業周轉，因為資金面會有很大的問題，沒有銷售就沒有收入嘛！所以這部分我期待國發會能夠劍及履及，針對這些跨部會需要協助的部分，由國發會來召集會議，包括金管會或者經濟部。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們來努力看看。我想也表達一下，委員應該也看到總統跟院長很在意這個產業，多次帶著經濟部去跟業者溝通，經濟部長日前也才跟業者又有座談。我們會找經濟部來看看他們有沒有什麼樣的需求，就像是貨款等等，我們來協商。"],["邱委員志偉：重點是座談之後要拿出具體作法，讓產業能夠繼續穩定、繼續成長。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員志偉：後面的作法，就要由國發會統籌座談的結論，提出可行的規劃跟方案去執行，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們去瞭解，我們來努力看看。"],["邱委員志偉：包括專業雜誌有很多政策建言，針對臺灣目前可能會萎縮最大的十大產值的產業，包括傳統製造業產值萎縮大概2,500億，衝擊大概2萬家廠商，而且這2萬家廠商都是中小企業，都集中在中南部，對不對？這種需要政府相關作為來協助的部分，包括涵蓋四大策略、十一項作為，這些作為、這些期待都是業界座談所提出來的訴求，我期待這個部分是不是可以請國發會能夠針對企業界所提出來的訴求，整合各部會提出相對應的方案，讓業界能夠安心？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為經濟部已經提出來了，在分工上面，因為這個地方是分在經濟部，而我們在中長期，所以我們是協助轉型的部分，我們會一起來做。委員有這個要求，我就找經濟部談一下。"],["邱委員志偉：我一直期待國發會應該是財經小內閣，整合相關的財經部門應該是國發會的執掌，因為你們有宏觀調控的能力。經濟部也許不能指揮財政部，但是國發會可以站在宏觀經濟、宏觀調控的角度來看，可以協調相關部會，我是覺得國發會應該要扮演更積極的功能。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們來努力看看，因為這有一個分工，我們會按照委員的指示來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：剛有委員提到台積電的技術外洩，我們當然要很慎重來看，關於先進製程的機密當然是非常重要，特別是2奈米，這個是很專業的。畢竟技術外洩是一個事實，沒有錯嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的、是的。"],["邱委員志偉：這是一個事實，然後外洩的對象也是確定的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：我們是期待臺日半導體能夠合作，但如果是這樣子的話，就變成一種惡性競爭的關係。會不會讓臺日過去半導體合作的方向造成一些影響？甚至對台積電2奈米製程的競爭力或者後續營收會不會有相關的衝擊？我想台積電公司有責任向董事會做個說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：在下一次董事會他們會針對整個案情進行說明。目前還在查證、調查中，從我的角度來看，檢調進來了、國科會進來了，在整個安全性上已經止血了，現在是要把他的動機跟目的找出來。這些人背後的動機跟目的是來自於誰？目前必須查清楚才能確定，我們也不能現在就把它指向是哪一個國家、哪一個……"],["邱委員志偉：最後一個問題就是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會讓檢調跟國會來做一個決定。"],["邱委員志偉：好，那個部分，請國發會或者主委也持續關注後續的處理情形。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的、是的。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，先進製程我比較不擔心，又加上有今天記者會政府所說的承諾，但我相對比較擔心的是成熟製程。目前中國大概可以掌握五成的成熟製程市場，臺灣也有很多成熟製程的廠商，對不對？我認為課徵百分之百關稅是針對中國、劍指中國，但劍指中國的什麼？成熟製程，成熟製程占50%的市占率，因為中國的成熟製程也沒有在美國設廠，你要輸美國，就課百分之百；臺灣有些成熟製程有，有些沒有，對臺灣成熟製程也會造成影響，對成熟製程的部分，也請國發會先去做瞭解，看看要怎麼樣對成熟製程規定……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有的、有的。今天早上因為我要來這裡，所以我已經傳訊息給工協會，我們希望他們再評估看看。從直覺來看，GlobalFoundries會占到一些優勢，如果誰跟他有客戶衝突的話，我們希望這個評估他儘快評估出來，對其他的部分，我們也請他們評估，因為在第一次的討論裡面，大家是認為只要大家都漲一樣的話，影響力就沒有那麼大。我想委員在扣件業也有聽到，如果大家都50%的時候，我們扣件業就還算……比較擔心的反而是匯率的問題，所以我們現在正在蒐集這個部分。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","陳超明","邱志偉","賴士葆","李坤城","呂玉玲","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","廖先翔","葉元之","蔡易餘","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":437,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就「美國對等關稅底定後，我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈\n局新規劃」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147101_00010"}}},{"id":"163411","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b9f5542e70be304d21789cec5dbd9ef0650394dc758d122e313c4597e45d0cb6bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:05:17 - 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先有請曾耀部長跟彭副原署長請鄭部長 彭署長 貝子荀 謝謝部長好"},{"start":21.121,"end":38.657,"text":"首先先詢問您一下就是上一次的質詢本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題當時本席是提到說偏鄉的主任或這個後任校長他如果介紹到教育局去那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉的這個學校"},{"start":41.42,"end":56.213,"text":"所以就不能採計年資那這部分部長有答應說要研議按照這個比例來發放九任獎金那國教署也有跟本席說大約七月底前會定案那現在八月了不曉得研議員如何"},{"start":57.014,"end":84.07,"text":"那另外就是說本席上次來不及提到的就是目前9月的年資沒有採計育嬰留庭的年資那如果因為育嬰留庭而暫時沒有辦法去工作那年資就不予計算那這樣規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子所以也不利於現在我們少子化要鼓勵生育的這個政策所以請問部長"},{"start":85.872,"end":100.327,"text":"上述的規定會不會與這個性別平等工作法的所謂的促進工作平等的這個措施有相抵觸那這個在本次討論的修正的會議中有討論嗎那有什麼決議部長"},{"start":105.108,"end":125.658,"text":"謝謝委員 我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在原學校我們其實已經通過試 他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年 因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶 這個是"},{"start":127.919,"end":141.654,"text":"肯定他是可以採計的那另外一個剛才委員也感謝委員提醒我們事實上是按比例校長的借調在後用的是借調按比例給那至於剛才委員非常非常好"},{"start":144.317,"end":165.949,"text":"我想這是非常健康的一個一個主張我覺得我們應該來朝這個來支持的一個方向來因為確實我們現在希望有更多的這一些年輕老師他們也能夠有擁有一個小孩然後有一個家庭這個應該要被鼓勵好好那你會研議往這個支持的方向好謝謝部長"},{"start":169.792,"end":174.276,"text":"主席 我再請一下體育署正署長 台師大吳校長還有國科會書副主委 還有衛福部劉司長"},{"start":185.353,"end":201.498,"text":"好 謝謝我接下來還是要關心就是說我們全台灣民眾現在關心的這個台師大抽血案的問題那這個事件現在無論是教育部 國科會或者衛福部都在持續的調查當中那包含教育部"},{"start":203.819,"end":230.888,"text":"這個禮拜跟台大還有台師大還有北師大這個查核這個IRB那還有就是國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈那並且要研議更具體的所謂的學術倫理守則等等那這部分本席要請相關單位務必要嚴查嚴辦那不只是給當事的同學跟社會大眾一個交代"},{"start":231.328,"end":251.695,"text":"那更是要透過重新檢討這個學術研究倫理然後教育現場的權力結構等面向來重整這個台灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣那更重要的是說我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生那針對這次的事件本席首先想要討論是說"},{"start":253.175,"end":280.026,"text":"主持人或者受委託招募的受試者的人與受試者權利不對等的這個問題通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者的權利不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會就是IRB擋下來但這一次的研究主持人跟受試者的管理者"},{"start":280.726,"end":287.29,"text":"沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突所以審查會沒有及時去察覺到這種所謂的失聲權利不對等的狀態那我就想關心說那當研究計畫者有所隱瞞那IRB怎麼如何察覺到還是說要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處"},{"start":301.377,"end":309.726,"text":"那IRB要如何避免流於行事或者缺乏實質的審查這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會這邊來做回答"},{"start":314.053,"end":332.425,"text":"我想就教育部這一個部分是我想我們應該大學裡面大學都要加強宣導學生接受老師或是參與老師任何的研究他認為他不想參與他隨時可以終止這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的一個精神受試者的權益要優先被保障"},{"start":332.905,"end":347.092,"text":"那第二個就在大學端裡面加強內控內積裡面做不定期的這樣一個對研究涉及到IRB的這一個相關的研究裡面能夠有一個定期跟不定期的一個抽減我想"},{"start":348.735,"end":367.727,"text":"怎麼樣一個加強這個查核然後來確保我們所有的學生跟碩士者的一個權益我想對那所以剛我的問題是說那如果說當研究計畫者他有所隱瞞的時候那這樣整個整個機制怎麼樣去化解病人都一定要事情發生了才會知道"},{"start":372.708,"end":385.364,"text":"法當中就是有規定IRV就要定期的去查核他所督管的案子所以他有所隱瞞也會透過查核去了解然後只要一有異常狀況他可以IRV可以命這個計畫終止執行好"},{"start":389.088,"end":405.796,"text":"那在此我想要討論的就是說當人體實驗的受試者是學生那要求受他們抽血的人正是老師啊或者是教授那這樣子光是這個實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮啊"},{"start":406.816,"end":425.783,"text":"那台大研究倫理委員會的臨床實驗研究計畫的審查重點當中他有針對這種權力不對等的關係下面的人體實驗就有明確的規範不過台師大的IRB的案件受理的管理程序跟"},{"start":426.983,"end":452.544,"text":"知情同意與審查的程序就都沒有提到這一點那本席理解是說例如像我們這次這個女足精英學生球員這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練跟隊員的上對下的關係因為最精英的這批學生球員他可能就是這個教練所訓練管理的"},{"start":453.044,"end":470.74,"text":"那或者研究者就是學生系上的教授那既然如此相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎那所以要請教教部未來這種權力不對等的這種實驗和研究那你怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化"},{"start":473.032,"end":500.95,"text":"我想這一個剛才包含我們這一個施大吳校長他也特別提到說學校裡邊怎麼樣去加強這個老師在研究倫理上的一些這一個教育訓練等一個真人我想這當然是一個那另外一個就是還是要必須要有一個不定期跟定期的一個查核機制那我覺得很重要的就是說我們對學生這一個部分我們還是要加強宣導"},{"start":502.751,"end":524.043,"text":"讓學生了解他的權益他可以自己保護那另外如果老師嚴重的違規這個本來校教評會都有一個處理機制我想這就是校教評會的一個處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的一個行為教育部的一個力量當然就一定會介入"},{"start":525.003,"end":541.798,"text":"好 那接著本席有注意到就是說教科部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核作業要點那用這個查核人體研究的倫理審查委員會的運作情形那台師大在2022年"},{"start":543.559,"end":571.977,"text":"有通過教育部的不定期的查核那2023年的常規性的查核那台師大也在合格的名單中喔那合格的期限到2027年那但據這個受害了台師大的學生的描述教練可能是長期來用類似的手法在從事研究那教育部在這個不定期的查核跟常規性的查核裡面怎麼就沒有發現台師大的這個研究倫理"},{"start":572.917,"end":581.327,"text":"審查文會可能有失靈的狀況那製作部在到底在查核上發揮的實質的功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題啊 部長"},{"start":584.008,"end":612.634,"text":"你查核過程都OK呢對 報告委員我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRV運作的機制那確實台師大在這件事情上面也有出現了一些異常的狀況為時所以我們在5月19號本部的IRV的一個決議裡頭就是停止從7月1號開始停止台師大受理新案的審查這個是我們對於台師大整個IRV的一個監控機制"},{"start":613.974,"end":636.232,"text":"是另外這個受試者的保護當然是學術研究一個很重要的一環那本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關衛福部那衛福部他有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會即受試者保護查核基準作業準則這個內容有受試者保護的規範那他的這個"},{"start":641.716,"end":669.084,"text":"他的那個規範的完善可說是重中之重而且他第四章就專門寫研究對象就是所謂受試者的保護的嚴謹性那明確寫出說這個評估受試者的招募內容方式流程的適當性等等可是我們再看回到教育部教育部的一個人體研究倫理審查文會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略"},{"start":670.444,"end":692.792,"text":"簡單的三四頁然後細緻度跟衛福部的差很多那基本上也沒有提到說受試者的保護所以教育部我們可不可以考慮真的來重新檢視你這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核基準把它寫得詳細一點或者說加強受試者保護這一塊"},{"start":694.793,"end":719.68,"text":"或者說教育部你認為在這一塊要如何經濟強化這個教育部在查核的力度那衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助啦是 謝謝委員提醒我想這我們會來改進好 就是以衛福部的這種查核的方式來作為主要的參考人家衛福部這個非常的詳盡好 那我想這件事當然也反映了就是體育生"},{"start":721.221,"end":735.658,"text":"學業升學 甚至參賽的資格我想常常會被教練掌控因為學生怕不能上場比賽得不到學分 或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲我想這也是關鍵"},{"start":737.62,"end":761.777,"text":"我小時候為了是田徑隊喔那所以我很清楚能理解就是說教練要訓練競技的運動他必須要建立權威不然什麼要聽他的可是這個威信是要利他幫助孩子有更好的發展是利他的態度而不是拿來當自己的好處滿足自己的私慾那所以本席有看到這個運動部的報告"},{"start":764.179,"end":780.87,"text":"有特別提到說體育班的轉型當中我們就是要檢討現行體育班跟專任教練運動教練的相關法規那這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼那體育班我想長期以來就是"},{"start":781.73,"end":798.94,"text":"相對是軍事化的管理啦就是比較威權的管理那教練說了算的這種思維那該如何革新那怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績啊或者初賽資格這種事情再次發生署長"},{"start":799.54,"end":825.198,"text":"報告委員其實在您的簡報上面就有提到我們在整個體育班轉型的這個六年的過程當中對專任教練的一些要求考核都有一些變更希望我們至少從國小開始做起我們就是希望把它社區化社團化而不是以多排的思維為主那當然我們有一批比較資深的教練他的觀念可能因為我們這幾年才把兒少的這個部分"},{"start":825.818,"end":844.072,"text":"把他放進我們的教練的考證的這個課程當中那也因為這樣所以我們現在有在立法院的支持下我們現在有所謂的六年要換證那換證的過程那就必須要有真人所以資深的教練我們就會透過真人的部分再給予他一個重新的一個教育希望他們就像委員講的以立他為基礎進行"},{"start":845.533,"end":862.217,"text":"那最後就是說我有看到教育部跟未來的運動部對學校體育這個部分已經做出分工那目前其實已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎已經開過應該有七八次的會議由戰略次長來主持討論蠻細的"},{"start":864.378,"end":888.298,"text":"我是想提醒初期應該會比較相對混亂一點那某些業務也很難區分誰要負責那當然我們不希望在這個業務轉移要分工的這個時候看到互踢皮球的狀態那應該可以做到啦包委我們其實會建立目前這個默契就是運動部成立之後兩個部會會有一個學校體育的一個溝通平台來做這個協調好 謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":896.879,"end":898.605,"text":"謝謝 臨警召委質詢 歡迎請回座 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":535,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請鄭英耀部長跟彭富源署長。"],["主席：好，請鄭部長、彭署長備詢，謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長，首先要先詢問您一下，在上一次質詢時本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題，當時本席提到偏鄉的主任或候用校長如果借調到教育局去，因為沒有實際在偏鄉學校服務，所以就不能採計年資，這部分部長有答應要研議按照比例來發放久任獎金，國教署也有跟本席說大約7月底前會定案，那現在已經8月了，不曉得研議得如何。另外，本席上次來不及提到，就是目前久任的年資沒有採計育嬰留停的年資，如果因為育嬰留停而暫時沒有辦法去工作，那年資就不予計算，這樣的規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子，也不利於現在我們因為少子化而要鼓勵生育的政策，請問部長，上述的規定會不會與性別平等工作法中所謂的促進工作平等這個措施相牴觸？在本次的修正會議中有討論這個部分嗎？最後有做什麼決議？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，感謝委員提出這個久任獎金的問題，因為外界一直認為一定要留在原學校，我們其實已經通過可以跨縣市、跨校採計，因為他可能在那個學校教了6年，接著他已經補上正式的老師，所以他並沒有代理……"],["林委員宜瑾：他又去別的學校。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個是肯定可以採計的。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["鄭部長英耀：另外，也感謝委員的提醒，事實上，我們是按比例，校長在候用的是借調，就是按比例給。至於剛才委員提出一個非常好的問題，就是育嬰留停，我想這是一個非常健康的主張，我覺得我們應該朝支持的方向來做，因為我們現在確實希望有更多的年輕老師也能夠擁有一個小孩，然後有一個家庭，這個應該要被鼓勵，我想我們朝支持的方向來努力。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，你們會研議往支持的方向，好，謝謝部長。我再請一下體育署鄭署長、臺師大吳校長、國科會蘇副主委還有衛福部劉司長，謝謝。我接下來還是要關心一個問題，就是我們全臺灣民眾現在所關心的這個臺師大抽血案，針對這個事件，現在無論是教育部、國科會或者衛福部，都在持續的調查當中，包含教育部在這個禮拜跟臺大、臺師大還有北市大查核IRB，還有國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈，並且要研議更具體的學術倫理守則等等，本席請相關單位對這部分務必要嚴查、嚴辦，不只給身為當事人的同學跟社會大眾一個交代，更是要透過重新檢討學術研究倫理還有教育現場的權力結構等面向，來重整臺灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣，更重要的就是我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生。針對這次的事件，本席首先想要討論一個問題，就是主持人或者受委託招募受試者的人與受試者權力不對等，因為通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者之間權力不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會，也就是IRB擋下來，但這一次的研究主持人與受試者的管理者沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突，所以審查會沒有及時察覺到這種所謂的師生權力不對等的狀態，我想關心的是，當研究計畫者有所隱瞞，IRB如何察覺到，還是要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處？IRB要如何避免流於形式或者缺乏實質的審查？這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會來做回答。"],["鄭部長英耀：就教育部的部分，大學裡面都要加強宣導，學生接受老師或者參與老師任何的研究，當他不想參與的時候，他隨時可以終止，這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的精神，受試者的權益要優先被保障。第二個，在大學端加強內控內稽，對涉及到IRB的相關研究進行定期和不定期的抽檢，如何加強查核，以確保所有學生及受試者的權益。"],["林委員宜瑾：我的問題是，當研究計畫者有所隱瞞的時候，整個機制怎麼樣去化解，變成都一定要事情發生了才會知道。"],["廖司長高賢：……當中就有規定IRB要定期去查核它所督管的案子。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以當他有所隱瞞，也會通過查核去瞭解？"],["廖司長高賢：對，只要一有異常狀況，IRB可以命這個計畫終止執行。"],["林委員宜瑾：在此我想要討論的是，當人體實驗的受試者是學生，要求受他們抽血的人正是老師或者是教授，光是實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮，臺大研究倫理委員會的臨床試驗研究計畫審查重點當中，針對這種權力不對等關係下的人體實驗就有明確規範，不過臺師大IRB案件受理的管理程序、知情同意與審查程序，就都沒有提到這一點。本席的理解是，例如，像這次的女足菁英學生球員，這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練和隊員的上對下關係，因為最菁英的這批學生球員，他可能就是這個教練所訓練、管理的，或者研究者就是學生系上的教授，既然如此，相關的倫理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎？所以要請教教育部，未來這種權力不對等的實驗和研究，怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化？"],["鄭部長英耀：剛才包含我們師大的吳校長，他也特別提到學校怎麼樣去加強老師在研究倫理上教育訓練的增能，這當然是一個，另外還是必須要有一個不定期與定期的查核機制，我覺得很重要的是，對於學生的部分我們還是要加強宣導，讓學生瞭解他的權益，這樣他就可以自我保護。另外，若老師有嚴重違規之情事，本來校教評會都有一個處理機制，但是校教評會的處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的行為，教育部的力量當然也就一定會介入。"],["林委員宜瑾：接著本席也有注意到，教育部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會查核作業要點，用於查核人體研究倫理審查委員會的運作情形，臺師大在2022年有通過教育部的不定期查核，2023年的常規性查核，臺師大也在合格的名單中，合格期限到2027年。但據受害的臺師大學生描述，教練可能是長期以來都用類似的手法在從事研究，教育部在不定期查核及常規性查核裡面，怎麼沒有發現臺師大的研究倫理審查委員會可能有失靈的狀況，教育部在查核上發揮的實質功能是不是失靈了或者出現了什麼問題？部長，它的查核過程都是OK的。"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRB運作的機制，臺師大在這件事情上面確實也有出現了一些異常的狀況、違失，所以5月19日本部IRB就決議從7月1日開始停止臺師大受理新案的審查，這個是我們對於臺師大整個IRB的監控機制。"],["林委員宜瑾：另外，受試者保護當然是學術研究很重要的一環，本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關是衛福部，衛福部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會暨受試者保護查核基準作業準則，這個內容有受試者保護的規範，規範的完善可說是重中之重，而且第四章專門針對研究對象，也就是所謂受試者保護的嚴謹性，明確寫出評估受試者的招募內容、方式、流程的適當性等等。可是我們再回到教育部，教育部的人體研究倫理審查委員會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略，只有簡單的3、4頁，細緻度也與衛福部的規範差很多，基本上也沒有提到受試者的保護，所以教育部可不可以考慮真的重新檢視這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的查核基準，把它寫得詳細一點或者加強受試者保護這一塊？教育部認為在這一塊要如何精進，以強化教育部查核的力度，衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助，部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，這個我們會來改進。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，以衛福部的查核方式作為主要參考，衛福部規範的非常詳盡。這件事當然也反映體育生的學業升學，甚至是參賽資格常常會被教練掌控，因為學生怕不能上場比賽、得不到學分或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲，我想這也是關鍵，我小時候也是田徑隊，所以我很清楚也能理解，教練要訓練競技運動，他必須要建立權威，不然誰要聽他的，可是這個威信是要利他，幫助孩子有更好的發展，是利他的態度，而不是拿來當自己的好處，滿足自己的私慾。本席看到運動部的報告有特別提到，體育班的轉型當中就是要檢討現行體育班與專任教練、運動教練的相關法規，這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼？體育班長期以來相對是軍事化管理，比較威權的管理，教練說了算的這種思維該如何革新，怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績或出賽資格的這種事情再次發生？署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實在你的簡報上面就有提到在體育班轉型的6年過程當中，對專任教練的要求、考核都有一些變更，希望至少從國小開始做起，我們希望把它社區化、社團化，而不是以奪牌的思維為主。當然，我們有一批比較資深的教練，因為我們這幾年才把兒少的部分放進教練考證的課程當中，也因為這樣，所以我們在立法院的支持下，現在有所謂的6年要換證，換證的過程就必須要有增能，所以我們就會透過增能的部分，再給予資深教練一個重新的教育，就像委員講的，希望他們以利他為基礎來進行。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後，我有看到教育部和未來的運動部對學校體育部分已經做出分工，目前已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前已經開過7、8次會議，由張廖次長主持，也討論滿細的。"],["林委員宜瑾：我想提醒初期應該會相對混亂一點，某些業務也很難區分誰要負責，當然，我們不希望在業務轉移、分工的時候看到互踢皮球的狀態，應該可以做到吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們其實會建立……目前整個默契就是運動部成立之後，兩個部會會有一個學校體育的溝通平臺來做協調。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝署長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。","接下來有請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163410","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163410","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b9df84c616805cffe570dc6911ab88c3aa0394dc758d122e314dbbcf117f4815fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:54:51 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它只有國會會可以來做那產業園區就比較多元了"},{"start":125.996,"end":148.707,"text":"那科學園區在國科會的考慮點是說因為它科學園區做出來以後,也要有人願意進駐嗎?我相信很多事情都有變通的方式可以那只要我們來協商一下,不然這樣後來所以我們壓力很大,已經宣布出去了,大家都在期待之中"},{"start":149.887,"end":174.309,"text":"好不好我們不要講困難我們要講如何解決困難的問題因為我們當初我們在整個桃竹苗大西湖計畫並沒有指明這塊地只有在這個區嘛你再講一下我就聽不太清楚我們當時抱怨的桃竹苗大西湖計畫是有說到要在這裡做在這個區做但是並沒有講是這塊地或是哪一塊地也沒講時間點"},{"start":176.05,"end":197.541,"text":"那所以國客會的想法就是說他的地要一塊一塊的有人買他租他才會慢慢的租出去他要確定有那他才會考慮來做那第二個他們過去他們現在的做法因為他們都會因為這個要經過都更會很久尤其那裡是農業保護地那他們大部分都會找現成的地來進行"},{"start":200.402,"end":207.545,"text":"所以這是我們第一次協調的結果沒關係啦,我們再來想想看我們再來想想看,我們選一天,好我就討論好我就解決這個問題,這樣好不好?好,我拜託再來,我要跟你請教因為關於232條款,晶片跟我們的電子產業的一個計畫那現在關稅調到100%"},{"start":230.479,"end":252.459,"text":"原則上現在我要問行政院到底知道川普的要求是什麼行政院說這個企業的投資不清楚不清楚說你們去問那個投資的公司台積電他最清楚你剛好是台積電的董事我第一個問題要跟你請教"},{"start":254.221,"end":273.015,"text":"台積電已經在美國投資1650億美金現在川普在說的是再追加3000億美金還是追加2000億美金這是追加還是包含了1650億說得清楚我們可以了解台積電的問題對美國導致所引起的一個對台灣的影響"},{"start":278.927,"end":302.995,"text":"這個部分台積電已經回應了台積電已經回應了嘛他的回應就代表公司的回應嘛你也知道當初台積電是沒有回應的董事是不會去不能亂講嘛要靠發言人來講嘛那發言人他們的發言回來我想他們之前已經很清楚表達就是用到目前為止"},{"start":304.215,"end":325.231,"text":"你是怎麼樣,你台積電的董事是台灣的代表在那邊,連你都不懂,你們在說我們要怎麼相信?我懂的就是1650億嗎?多少?就1650億公告的數字你意思,我是立法委,我不是經濟部長,經濟部長說這個市場要給你修理,到底是多少錢要投資多少?到現在還不懂,你們如何去談判?"},{"start":333.029,"end":355.305,"text":"阿你是國安會主委捏你是台灣最重要經濟的一個操盤手捏阿你不知道我看齁整個台灣政府都很...委員我知道就是一千六百五十億阿這個是...這是的確...好啦好啦你做官啊怎麼這麼說所以我永遠不相信這個政府這是經過董事會...連這樣就不敢說出來到...經過董事會也是經過公司公告的嘛我這個我這個說嘛給台灣人會不會知道嘛"},{"start":359.883,"end":374.45,"text":"那這是的確啦 目前我知道只有到這啦因為因為因為是講出來怕傷到臺灣的心還是怎麼樣這個實在是誠意很大這個沒有好什麼隱瞞的這沒什麼好隱瞞的我真的覺得沒有好隱瞞的"},{"start":376.491,"end":396.615,"text":"這裡面現在又有一個說出來台積電要跟英特爾要結合在一起那你當初回答我一句話柴油跟汽油不能合併但是可能會提示這種要求英特爾占51%台積電占49%這個情形你也不知道再上一次你國化會主委不知道這個政府就亂套了"},{"start":404.4,"end":420.195,"text":"委員是這樣我們在上一次的時候呢很早就傳出來那時候傳出來呢事實上是一些投資界的人傳的聲音那這個台積電也有去查證那所以這個部分我們並沒有被討論過了"},{"start":422.616,"end":449.646,"text":"現在有出來在這個方針再出來喔但是我們不能因為媒體的任何風聲都希望你們給我氣魄給我擔當而已問完你們都不知道我不知道國安會關稅的談判根本是太重要太重要影響各種企業跟我們經濟政策的做什麼都要你們都說不知道我這個政府是當時我才不知道你們在談什麼你們在談變什麼所以是由我們副院長在討論啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊"},{"start":451.867,"end":477.35,"text":"不是,這是因為很重要的事情我相信說你有兩年人蓋過問題簾,這樣你都不知道,疑問三不足這政府要怎麼叫他們取信於民現在時間已經是坦白關鍵的時刻了我跟你報告的是事實事實你說我不知道,我也沒辦法真的啦,這真的是事實啦沒有,這個事情是媒體等的包括你有"},{"start":478.843,"end":503.732,"text":"至少在我們沒有討論過啦好啦好啦我相信你啦我希望沒有啦再來今天你回答了一個問題那現在232的條款裡面你說台灣的競爭力很強不用擔心我們232條款100%不用擔心台灣很安全你要學習"},{"start":506.244,"end":513.335,"text":"其實大家最環繞的就是232條款電子產品我們的晶片"},{"start":514.867,"end":536.225,"text":"量子件那一些你如果說不用煩惱我現在想起來所有都說對等關稅還不是最重要台灣的主要產業是在232條款裡面你說不重要我不曉得你信心從哪裡來委員我是針對晶片的部分針對晶片的部分回答啦"},{"start":537.216,"end":543.4,"text":"那晶片的部分的確我們最主要的晶片廠商的確他在美國有設廠第二個不是我們100%是全球都100%"},{"start":567.316,"end":592.658,"text":"你相信川普的野心那些嗎?川普的野心是要全部掌控那個晶片的美國要做老大他能指揮一切只有戰略方式他就能滿足 我覺得我怎麼演什麼幻想我都不曉得我講的是說到2029年這三個場因為當時大家你應該就了解2029年川普卸任了沒有都有評估過這三個場"},{"start":593.539,"end":597.5,"text":"針對當時大家在評估的時候我想各個業界都有評估過了那個量真的沒有很大我們只是想告訴大家台積電主要投資都在台灣"},{"start":613.864,"end":628.155,"text":"我剛才跟你說主要的投資在台灣他的資料現在這幾個廠蓋完了他不蓋因為台灣的電力不夠他不敢蓋我們要承認一些事實這是他們內部的消息給我們的"},{"start":629.372,"end":648.437,"text":"所以說要往外蓋啊往外蓋美國的所有投資4600億對台灣有沒有幫忙委員我們都有跟台積電定期在會議對於所有的新廠需要的電力有些話你們不敢講包括道路我們都有在每個月都有在談他也已經了解台灣的電力不夠你們要相信這一點不要對台灣人只講好聽的話"},{"start":657.659,"end":685.771,"text":"我不會這樣喔,這的確我們在開會裡面我們對每一個廠的需求我們都在滿足啦所以到目前為止,台積電的計畫並沒有改變我是不怎麼樂觀,你們現在都說得好聽一點好,再來一個問題,你是台積電的董事二耐米台積電洩漏到日本去,只有一天的新聞星期三,今天星期四,所有新聞都沒有在"},{"start":687.157,"end":703.159,"text":"這很夭壽我看起來他是從台積電離開到日本公司上任叫做一家叫做TL他是半導體商設備第三名他來切起這個機制到日本"},{"start":704.663,"end":718.773,"text":"那個晶片的團隊叫做REPITAS他是國家隊喔日本的國家隊做到那一邊說7月18號2奈米他們已經試做成功啊"},{"start":719.754,"end":744.4,"text":"你們每天在說台灣的肥大很多現在日本的間諜也不少我看台灣已經千山百棟載人去了我很奇怪如果是你台積電的董事你應該關心台積電這個事情怎麼今天連報紙的新聞都沒有還是日本人很會做公共的關係還是台灣政府開始在引入他這一塊"},{"start":746.363,"end":767.776,"text":"你告訴我 2奈米已經被拖出去 台灣政府都沒有出聲是因為日本到日本不敢出聲還是怎麼樣委員我先跟你報告他當時成立的時候是購買 就是選用IBM2奈米技術"},{"start":768.963,"end":792.733,"text":"那是IBM的兩奈米技術是賣給它的那第二個它的製程跟我們的製程是不一樣的我們是一個產品頭片可能就是一萬片五千片它其實廠產能只有五千片我們大部分都是五萬片以上那它為什麼只有五千片它是走客製化它可以每一片都不一樣是採用HIT-Touch之前的技術"},{"start":793.453,"end":813.158,"text":"你說日本團隊是怎樣因為我跟這些人也算熟悉你怎麼很相信日本人講的話每一片不一樣除了做軍用他不會想擴展他的聲譽為什麼他要來拖起我們的二耐民你們都說好聽話"},{"start":815.331,"end":827.234,"text":"除了一天在罵對岸的 連日本這樣情形 連屁都不敢晃連講一聲中話都沒有 新聞整個封鎖起來我覺得我們這國家永遠就是三重的標準在我說日本美國會很恐怖捏 他要你什麼就是絕對要你捏"},{"start":838.017,"end":853.923,"text":"這個我有要求台積電要做進行檢討然後這個來做一定的管控那目前他的偵測技術至少這個是他主動偵測出來那台積電這個部分還是很強的二賴米被拿過去"},{"start":855.043,"end":873.383,"text":"你台灣的競爭地位日本也是很會很強的我們的燃料要很多從那邊來的設備從那邊來的他慢慢走轉的話就載你台灣您就很樂觀的看法這個生意是誰該送你競爭的呢有一個很難的您不要以為他們就對你好"},{"start":874.927,"end":886.276,"text":"有一個很難的是它做出2奈米它的良率能不能穩定在最高的良率那個是我其實我跟你說ASML的荷蘭那一家公司還沒有美國通用公司還有那個TEL三家半導體設備的廠商他們不會改進啊"},{"start":899.212,"end":924.044,"text":"其實有人看到就知道歐美甲在想什麼我跟你講做設備的他一定會了解我怎樣去改進到最好這些資料過去了你們還在替他掩護我不知道我們的心態是什麼啊覺得政府很奇怪連鄂賴銘的技術外卸是去了你們只有看鮑達福的設備那一關難過你們每次拿它都沒關係"},{"start":930.353,"end":946.844,"text":"你們都沒有緊張的心理我們國科會都很認真的來參與調查不夠認真啦我看今天的報紙都沒有寫我這很莫名其妙要是中國大陸大概要炒上一個月啊現在那在執政黨的都不敢講話我沒有看到一個人問真的真的"},{"start":957.905,"end":971.523,"text":"奇怪 你等一下問啦你在我後面啦 邱志偉你問一下為什麼鄂耐敏的機師已經外流到日本了台灣都沒有發生只有一天的新聞第二天的新聞全部紅手"},{"start":972.284,"end":989.98,"text":"奇怪不奇怪委員你可以這樣看一個投手至少要五種三種以上的球路他看了一種拿書看就可以投職棒嗎其實沒有那麼簡單不是書看了就會而且他只看到一部分因為台積電是切割很多段這是事實台積電的保護就是這樣做的"},{"start":997.355,"end":1002.256,"text":"因為這樣你們又替人家講話你為什麼說他的製程他不一定會學會日本比台灣人還笨嗎你們敗為偶像的國家呢怎麼會比我們笨所以你們這個就是這樣阿拜台灣其實給你們這台都沒贏謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時54分）主席，首先邀請國發會劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委早。身體有沒有比較好？有沒有壓力很大？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，謝謝，我上禮拜管子拔掉了！"],["陳委員超明：我第一項要跟你拜託，拜託很久了，一直沒時間跟你見面，就是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，我們苗栗縣是十分積極，目前苗栗縣政府的用地評估已接近尾聲，現在就是要跟中央機關尋求協助，但是當初是你們提送的，行政院核定，目前苗栗縣政府有三塊的產業用地，後龍的產業園區沒有問題，它的主管機關就是經濟部。頭份交流道在頭份科學園區裡面，它是經過都市計畫變更，應該也沒有問題，現在比較大的問題就是在竹南科第二期的科學園區裡面，那是非都市計畫，這裡面我們一直跟國科會聯絡，但它不願意來當主管機關，我在這裡要特別請劉主委再幫我們協調一次，看是國科會要認還是你國發會要認，還是由苗栗縣政府來認、來擔任開發的主管機關，不然現在停滯在那邊，到底要怎樣來決定這些？而且這些計畫對苗栗縣的繁榮發展跟進步是非常非常重要的關鍵，我特別跟你拜託，請你再出面一次，看是否能說成。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實我出面過一次，我再想想看，因為這個……"],["陳委員超明：你都想很久，我想說你當時……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為科學園區只有國科會可以來做，產業園區就比較多元了，有關科學園區，國科會的考慮點是說，因為科學園區做出來以後也要有人願意進駐……"],["陳委員超明：我相信很多事情都可以有變通的方式，只要我們來協商一下，不然這樣耗下去我們的壓力很大，已經宣布出去了，大家都在期待之中，好不好？我們不要講困難，我們要講如何解決困難的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為當初我們在整個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫並沒有指名這塊地，只有在這個區。"],["陳委員超明：你再說一下，我聽不太清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們當時報院的桃竹苗大矽谷計畫是有提到要在這裡做、在這個區域做，但是並沒有講是這塊地或是哪一塊地，也沒講時間點，所以國科會的想法就是它的地要一塊一塊有人買，它才會租出去，它要確定有才會考慮來做。第二個，他們現在的作法，他們大部分都會找現成的地來進行，因為這個要經過都更會很久，尤其那裡是農業保護地，這是我們第一次協調的結果。"],["陳委員超明：我怎麼越聽越小聲？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒關係啦，我們再來想看看。"],["陳委員超明：我們再來想看看，我們選一天好好來討論、好好來解決這個問題，這樣好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：我拜託一下。再來，我要跟你請教，關於232條款、晶片跟我們的電子產業計畫，原則上關稅調到100%，現在我問行政院到底知不知道川普的要求是什麼？行政院說，這是企業的投資不清楚，要去問投資的公司──台積電最清楚，你剛好是台積電的董事，我第一個問題要跟你請教，台積電已經在美國投資1,650億美金，現在川普說的是再追加3,000億美金，還是追加2,000億美金？這是追加還是包含1,650億？要講清楚，我們才會了解台積電在美國投資所引發對臺灣的影響。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分台積電已經回應了。"],["陳委員超明：你做董事應該要了解，說話要實在一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電已經回應了嘛！它的回應就代表公司的回應，你也知道董事是……"],["陳委員超明：台積電沒有回應。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：董事不會、也不能亂講，要靠發言人來講，至於發言人的發言，我想他們之前已經很清楚表達，就是他們到目前為止是1,650億。"],["陳委員超明：你們不能說到底是怎麼樣，台積電的董事是臺灣的代表，連你都不知道，那你們說的我們要怎麼相信？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我知道的就是1,650億。"],["陳委員超明：多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就是1,650億，公告的數字。"],["陳委員超明：我是立法委員，我不是經濟部長。經濟部長說這個事情被人家修理，到底要投資多少錢？到現在還不知道！你是國發會主委，你是臺灣最重要的一個經濟操盤手，連你不知道，我看整個臺灣政府都很……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我知道的就是1,650億啊！這個是的確……"],["陳委員超明：好啦！好啦！你當官的人這樣說，所以我永遠不相信這個政府。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是經過董事會……"],["陳委員超明：連這樣都不敢說出來，到底有沒有氣魄和擔當？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也是經過公司公告的嘛！"],["陳委員超明：多少就說嘛！讓臺灣的人可以知道嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是的確，目前我知道只有到這，因為……"],["陳委員超明：你們是怕講出來傷到臺灣人的心，還是怎麼樣？這實在很令人存疑，這個沒有什麼好隱瞞的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這沒什麼好隱瞞的。"],["陳委員超明：我真的覺得沒有什麼好隱瞞的。現在又有一個說法出來，台積電要跟Intel結合在一起，你當初回答我一句話─柴油和汽油不能合併，但是可能會提出這種要求，Intel占51%，台積電占49%，這個情形你也不知道？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：在上一次……"],["陳委員超明：你是國發會主委，你不知道的話這個政府就亂套了！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有、沒有，委員，是這樣的。在上一次很早就傳出來，那時候事實上是一些投資界的人傳的聲音。台積電也有去查證，所以這個部分我們並沒有討論過。"],["陳委員超明：現在這個風聲又再出來，他們要要求。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那是風聲，但是我們不能因為媒體的任何風聲就討論。"],["陳委員超明：希望你們要有氣魄、要有擔當，不能「問你們，你們都說不知道」！國發會跟關稅的談判是太重要、太重要了，影響各種企業跟我們的經濟政策走向，結果你們都說不知道？這個政府是何時才能讓我們知道你們談了什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這很重要，所以……"],["陳委員超明：你們在談判什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以是由我們副院長在帶領。"],["陳委員超明：碰到美國，你們就都軟了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是，因為這是很重要的事情，所以我們要……"],["陳委員超明：我相信你們有能力可以解決問題，結果連這樣你們都不知道？一問三不知！這個政府要怎樣取信於民？到現在已經是攤牌的關鍵時刻了！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我跟你報告的是事實，但你說我不知道，我也沒辦法了！真的，這真的是事實啦！這個事情是媒體登的。"],["陳委員超明：萬一有呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少我們沒有討論過。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！我相信你，我希望沒有。","再來，今天你回答了一個問題，現在232條款裡面，你說臺灣的競爭力很強，不用擔心，對於232條款的100%，我們不用擔心，臺灣很安全！你要小心。其實大家最煩惱的就是232條款！因為包括電子產品、晶片、零組件那一些，如果你說不用煩惱，我現在想想，所有人都說對等關稅還不是最重要，臺灣的主要產業是在232條款裡面，結果你說不重要？我不曉得你的信心從哪裡來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我是針對晶片的部分，是針對晶片的部分回答。晶片的部分，我們最主要的晶片廠商的確在美國有設廠。"],["陳委員超明：好，你們都說不重要……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個，不是我們100%，而是全球都100%，所以大家都一樣。"],["陳委員超明：我知道全球都有，你在做，人家也在追。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大家都一樣。"],["陳委員超明：如果是1,650億美金，加3,000億美金，總共投資4,600億美金……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不知道這個數字怎麼來的。"],["陳委員超明：你說美國的產量才占全球的6%，你想川普的野心有那麼小嗎？川普的野心是要全部掌控晶片，美國要做老大！他要能指揮一切，只占6%，他就能滿足嗎？我覺得這個話……你怎麼換算的，我都不曉得。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我講的是到2029年這三個廠，你應該很了解，當時大家……"],["陳委員超明：2029川普卸任了沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：都有評估過這三個廠。"],["陳委員超明：你們是等著他卸任再來看情形，還是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有、沒有……"],["陳委員超明：現在就馬馬虎虎答應，大家再來拚，是不是？用時間來拚是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員不能這樣講，因為這是針對當時大家在評估的時候，我想各個業界都有評估過，那個量真的沒有很大。"],["陳委員超明：其實大家……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們只是想告訴大家，台積電的主要投資都在臺灣，所有的關鍵技術都在臺灣。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，你說主要的投資在臺灣，根據他們的資料，現在這幾個廠蓋完了就不蓋，因為臺灣的電力不夠，他不敢蓋啦！我們要承認一些事實啊！這是他們內部給我們的消息啦！所以只有往外蓋，往外蓋對美國投資4,600億對臺灣有沒有幫忙？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們都有跟台積電定期在會議，對於所有新廠需要的電力跟水……"],["陳委員超明：有些話你們不敢講。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：包括道路，我們每個月都有在談。"],["陳委員超明：現在這些廠蓋完，就不會在臺灣蓋新的廠了，他們也已經了解臺灣的電力不夠，你們要相信這一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電目前對臺灣的設廠並沒有改變。"],["陳委員超明：不要對臺灣人只講好聽的話。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不會這樣的，的確我們在開會時，我們對每一個廠的需求都有在滿足，所以到目前為止，台積電的計畫並沒有改變，這我很肯定。"],["陳委員超明：我是不怎麼樂觀，你們現在都說好聽話。","再來一個問題，你是台積電的董事，台積電被洩漏2奈米技術到日本，只有星期三一天的新聞，今天是星期四，所有新聞都沒有了，這真「夭壽」！我看起來，他是從台積電離開到日本一家叫做TEL的公司上任，它是半導體設備供應商第三名。竊取了這個技術到日本那個晶片團隊叫做Rapidus，它是日本的國家隊，他們在7月18號2奈米已經試作成功了。你們每天在說臺灣的匪諜很多，現在日本的間諜也不少，我看臺灣已經千瘡百孔隨便人家了。我也覺得很奇怪，如果你是台積電的董事，你應該關心台積電，這個事情怎麼連今天的報紙新聞都沒有？是日本人很會做公共關係？還是臺灣政府在掩護這一塊？你跟我說。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：2奈米已經被偷出去了，臺灣政府都沒發聲嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，先講一下……"],["陳委員超明：是因為流到日本不敢出聲，還是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我先跟你報告，Rapidus當時成立的時候是選用IBM 2奈米技術，那是IBM的2奈米技術去賣給它的。第二，它的製程跟我們的製程是不一樣的，我們是一個產品投片可能就是一萬片、五千片，它的廠產能其實只有五千片，我們大部分都是五萬片以上。它為什麼只有五千片？因為它是走客製化，可以每一片都不一樣，是採用Hitachi之前的技術。"],["陳委員超明：你說Rapidus日本團隊是怎樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我跟這些人也算熟悉，其實這個部分……"],["陳委員超明：你怎麼很相信日本人講的話？每一片不一樣，除了做軍用，他不會想擴展他的生意嗎？為什麼要來偷取我們的2奈米？你們都說好聽話，一天到晚在罵對岸，對於日本這樣的情形，你們連屁都不敢放！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實這個動機……"],["陳委員超明：連講一聲重話都沒有，新聞整個封鎖起來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：動機檢調正在調查。"],["陳委員超明：我覺得我們這個國家永遠都是雙重標準。有時候日本、美國很恐怖，他要你的什麼就是絕對要。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我有要求台積電要進行檢討，做一定的管控。目前它的偵測技術，至少這個是它主動偵測出來的，台積電這個部分還是很強的。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，2奈米被拿過去，臺灣的競爭地位，日本也是會很強的，我們的原料很多是那邊來的，設備也是從那邊來，他慢慢茁壯的話就會宰臺灣了！你還很樂觀在看待！這個生意是世界性在競爭的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有一個很難的……"],["陳委員超明：你不要以為他們對你好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不，有一個很難的就是做出2奈米，但能不能穩定在很高的良率，其實其他競爭對手像Intel做出來了、Samsung也做出來了……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，他是跟荷蘭ASML合作，沒有美國通用公司，還有TEL，三家半導體設備的廠商不會改進嗎？技術厲害的人看一下就知道「眉角」在哪裡了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可是Samsung這些公司也是在他們協助下做……"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，做設備的一定會了解要怎樣去改進做到最好，這些資料過去了，你們還在替它掩護，我真不知道你們的心態到底是什麼？這個政府很奇怪，連2奈米的技術都外洩出去了，你們就只有看報導……設備那一關難過，你們不替他們緊張嗎？你們都沒有緊張的心理！但以後誰打贏了就是誰的天下！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們國科會都很認真的來參與調查，包括檢調也都在認真的調查。"],["陳委員超明：不夠認真啦！我看今天的報紙都沒有寫，這很莫名其妙！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在大家都很清楚了，就是有12年……"],["陳委員超明：要是發生在中國大陸，大概要吵上1個月啊！現在執政黨的人都不敢講話，我沒有看到任何一個人提問，真的很奇怪！邱志偉委員待會在我後面發言，你問一下，為什麼2奈米技術已經外流到日本了，臺灣都沒有發聲？只有第一天有新聞，第二天的新聞就全部封鎖，這是奇怪還是不奇怪？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員你可以這樣看，一個投手至少要有5種、3種以上的球路，他拿書學了一種就可以投職棒嗎？其實沒有那麼簡單啦！不是書看了就會，而且他只看到一部分，因為台積電是將其切割成很多段……"],["陳委員超明：你都替他們講話！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是事實！台積電的保護措施就是這樣做的，所以它按照……"],["陳委員超明：他們都這樣了，你們還替他們講話！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：一個產品的製程都將近好幾個月……"],["陳委員超明：你為什麼說它的製程，日本不一定可以學會？日本比臺灣人還笨嗎？這是你們拜為偶像的國家，怎麼會比我們笨！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在正在調查。"],["陳委員超明：你們就是這樣，以後臺灣的技術在你們這一代都會因此而消失了，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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那我想我們就先邀請體育署署長 謝謝請體育署署長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":9.346,"end":33.64,"text":"好 因為前面大家都已經問了非常多台師大的這個抽血案的事情所以我今天的部分我想我這部分就不講太多但我有一個很好奇的點就是說過去其實我們有非常多的家長都一直在關心說因為我們這幾年已經有層出不窮的這個運動領域狼教練的事件所以家長都一直很期待就是說是不是可以公佈"},{"start":34.901,"end":55.251,"text":"那但是過去都告訴我們說因為個資法不能公佈啊可是在這一次的周台英教練的這個事件竹協卻是完全全民公佈欸你可以看到那個署長可以看到右手邊齁這個竹協公佈一樣是涉嫌兒少性侵案齁他都是三個字三個圈圈"},{"start":56.84,"end":64.214,"text":"可是為什麼周台英教練卻可以全民露出呢這一點我很納悶欸 可不可以說明一下包圍員 那這部分呢 當然"},{"start":65.233,"end":94.494,"text":"我个人认为这是足球协会本身自己的决定那它是它跟教练之间的一个事情但是我们今天问体育署体育署都是因为各自的关系啊对就我们公部门来讲我们比较严谨我们是希望在未来国体法第31条能够来征修来赋予法源的依据我们不是不愿意这样做但是我们未来会把这件事情把它放进下一期的国体法国体法的修法好那据我所知8月15号就会开会也就是下礼拜就会开会了所以我们"},{"start":95.094,"end":117.492,"text":"下個禮拜應該是就我所知8月15號就要開會了所以我們的目標都是要促成修法,對嗎?是好,所以這樣未來有這個法源的話應該是所有的協會有相關的事務涉及到兒少,我們都可以公佈嗎?因為其實你現在放三個圈圈圈,對家長來說是非常恐慌耶是我並不曉得我小孩是不是遇到這個教練耶知道,沒有錯"},{"start":118.693,"end":134.082,"text":"對 那我們之前問體育署體育署都會跟我們講說請家長去找合格教練可是這完全是文不對題啦所以我只是想問在現行的狀態之下在還沒有辦法全民公佈的狀況之下到底家長還可以怎麼做呢"},{"start":134.83,"end":162.255,"text":"報告委員我們其實意思是要在宣傳推廣說希望家長們還是可以到我們的體育署的網站去做查詢合格的教練的名單就是他知道他今天如果要找這個教練其實把他的名字輸進去來查詢我理解啦我的意思是說現在萬一就是他在合格教練沒有找到他的教練的時候又看到三個圈圈圈的時候那他就會非常的緊張嗎那他到底可以去哪裡來協助這些家長我建議如果找不到就不要找這個教練"},{"start":163.823,"end":180.496,"text":"我的問題是他的小孩已經了嘛已經就是在沒有在合格教練的名單上面了嘛對 那我說我們現在還可以怎麼樣協助家長嗎在現行我們各自法這些整整整整都還沒有辦法通過的時候我們可不可以難道露出一個性不行嗎跟主協討論露出一個性不行嗎"},{"start":181.738,"end":202.22,"text":"包委我們有就是主要也是我們法治這邊有建議我們還是這部分還是沒有辦法在現階段來完成這件事情但我們的確往這個方向那我們加速好不好是那我們加速好不好好不要因為這樣子一直持續下去我想在場如果是家長的話看到這三個圈都會非常的害怕是好不好好那再來就是說接下來就是要"},{"start":203.721,"end":227.492,"text":"問這個有關於我們這個有關運動部的事情因為我想這個總統的八大政見就一直不停的在強調我們要全民運動產業化以及競技運動全民化那我看了一下我們的預算其實是規模已經超越日本了我們基本上是都差不多70億可是我們的人口數是差了6倍"},{"start":228.192,"end":241.684,"text":"等於是說我們拿到每一個人人均分配的體育預算是相對來說是高的那我不曉得說我們這麼高的預算這個預算的分配是怎麼樣我們應該要得到一個很不錯的資源吧幫委員"},{"start":243.717,"end":264.267,"text":"可不可以簡單回應一下我想我國的體育的經費跟日本有一個很大的不同就是日本他們在民間的給予運動產業或是運動的協會選手的支持度遠比我國還要高很多那這部分也就是為什麼我國在公務預算以及基金這部分預算要稍微拉得比較高一點"},{"start":265.453,"end":289.622,"text":"這樣就最大的差別在這裡民間的力量可是問題是現在看起來你說他給協會的支持度比較高那我們現在我是說整個預算規模來說我們其實差不多362億換算成台幣大概就是70億左右我們給協會的資源其實大部分用在選手的培訓本身還有出國比賽所以我們給選手的支持度的確在全世界來講應該是蠻前面的才對"},{"start":290.79,"end":317.64,"text":"對所以我想知道是說到底是如果70億的這個資源下去之後我們的成果會越來越好嗎包委您指的是哪部分的成果對我現在具體來說就是說它是因為你剛剛講了嘛362億他們給協會資源很多可是我們是給選手的資源很多嘛那未來當我們運動部要成立我們的預算也會越來越多那表示我們給協會的資源也會越來越多嗎是這樣子嗎"},{"start":318.74,"end":329.806,"text":"並沒有 我們接下來主要的主軸主力會在全民運動這一塊全民運動這一塊以及公建計畫這一塊的執行好 那我想簡單聽起來就是說我們應該會有公建計畫大部分應該就是在場館的建置嘛是對吧好 那我想問一下喔因為其實剛剛講全民運動一定要產業化競技對我來說啦是全民運動一定要產業化競技運動才能全民化對因為沒有產業怎麼可能推動全民嘛"},{"start":348.195,"end":369.659,"text":"所以我想問一下因為我看你們的報告就有說你們會做一些不管是賽事聯賽讓這個活動看起來更娛樂化然後更這個有可看性啊等等那我想問的是我們現在本來就有一些比賽的播報但是種類相對有限那未來是會提升更多的場次還是說我們會提升更多的種類就是比賽的種類這樣子"},{"start":373.3,"end":397.811,"text":"報告委員 其實我們現在的確有一些復案那朱董我剛剛也回答其他委員的就是我們會在9月9號成立之後由部長以及新的全民運動署的署長來做更細部的規劃那我們現在講說我們期待因為這部分我們同仁完全沒有做過那我們是希望先把我們的所謂的社區的俱樂部先去做一個明確的定義"},{"start":398.531,"end":427.5,"text":"我們其實在過去這幾個月我們在做腦力計當然想說我們到底我們可以補助的對象是哪些比方說我們可以比照文化部它非常的寬鬆我們現階段教育部體育署的規定是非常的嚴格也有牽涉到圖利的問題我們希望在業務部分在社區聯賽等等俱樂部的支持讓它點火讓它發展起來這個業務就要有相對應的法規去做修改才行所以這部分會在9月到12月之間來"},{"start":428.36,"end":447.303,"text":"做蠻快速的一個處理所以你說這個要播報的種類其實是牽涉於法規我們現在不夠我們現在太過僵化嘛對不對聽起來是這樣那我接下來想要再請教一下因為我講今天能夠讓大家都看這個比賽其實還有一個非常重要的點是有沒有精彩嘛對不對"},{"start":447.944,"end":461.289,"text":"還有播報有沒有很有趣嘛對不對那我知道你們現在在這個計畫裡面是有提到說你們會跟傳播人才去做一個合作那接下來我想再請教那我們在賽事的精彩度上面是不是也要有所提升那是不是可以跟我們的協會幫"},{"start":463.09,"end":485.229,"text":"那一起來輔導他們舉辦更多的賽事例如可能像是Super 100到300等等的比較屬於也沒那麼高階但是他可以吸引可能不管是提供我們國內的選手參賽或者是可以吸引東南亞的選手可以來參賽就可以提升提升我們的一個可看性這件事情是可以跟單項協會一起來協助他們嗎因為透過這件事情也才能夠去解決這個裁員的問題嘛"},{"start":486.69,"end":497.801,"text":"報告委員其實這部分我在去年的時候也希望能夠大力來支持習慣來做這件事情不過因為礙於我們的基金的負擔實在是非常的沉重因為我們的運發基金他不只是賽事的部分"},{"start":498.243,"end":523.869,"text":"人才培育的部分也是一個重點可是我們的運財目前的收入還沒有辦法每年這樣足以來支持我們要做這麼多的事情所以我們才希望說有一些基金能夠迴遍到公務但是這部分目前主計總署當然還在做審查當中那這部分我們也在努力然後像現在的直嵐像霹靂他們就有在往東南亞來擴張這是很好的一個例子那我們希望協會能夠來往這個方向來進行"},{"start":526.71,"end":548.777,"text":"但是我現在講的其實是協助我們接下來未來會有運產中心嗎?他是不是也可以來做這樣一個協助的工作?運產中心我會賦予他我個人目前對他的期許是在社區基層的部分能夠去做點火的一個效益出來那我們希望輔導的是基層的賽事公司或是教練個人工作室讓教練就業機會及基層的產業能夠發展起來"},{"start":551.365,"end":571.513,"text":"對但是我想因為你今天人才起來之後一定要有比賽嘛一定要有一些比賽嘛所以我們像俱樂部像社區的俱樂部我們可以賦予他社區的聯賽的這個舉辦所以我們可以補助他那但是我們現在沒辦法這樣直接補助因為他不是公家單位所以變成要用招標採購那我們希望未來法規可以來做修法來做鬆綁"},{"start":572.073,"end":593.48,"text":"好所以這件事情也是回到法規的部分那最後一個部分我也想要再請教就是說因為你今天要有不管是社區也好你要有比賽你就要有場地好你要有場地那我們遷足計畫在113年到現在呢去年是增加了18個案例可是到現在也總共也只有26個場地那我想要知道因為在我們的計畫裡面也有提到說我們會有"},{"start":595,"end":609.428,"text":"場館的設施的建立嘛那我想知道明年未來我們的規劃是怎麼樣可以因為過去都告訴我們說縣市不願意啊大家都不來申請啊那我們未來增加了我們繼續往這個方向推進的時候我們如何解決我們過去的這些遇到的問題"},{"start":610.576,"end":635.228,"text":"我們大概分幾個層級第一個是在國家級國際級的賽事的部分我們現在有幾個不錯的選項比方說像退場的但是我們剛講是社區俱樂部啊對啊社區的部分我們也是希望還是一樣積極來我們在盤點希望各縣市能夠把一些土地能夠挪出來但是因為之前就說他們沒有意願啊所以這樣子對這是我們困難的地方我們其實有經費但是縣市政府他不願意來申請"},{"start":635.928,"end":645.875,"text":"那我們要如何解決呢?不然這樣子這件事情就會留在口號階段我們目前想到的是用評比的方式來進行給縣市政府的首長壓力所以你覺得這樣子是有效的嗎?試試看"},{"start":653.174,"end":682.013,"text":"好 没关系这个部分我们会后再约时间来仔细谈我认为除了还有这个部分除了迁徒计划要建设场馆之外还有现在学校的场地之前我有看到部长跟署长都有说跟各个县市政府有在谈要来校园开放的部分但是我想我们最近也看到一些相关的政策引发了基层的反弹那我是认为如果我们要做一些实际使用到学校场地的部分当然一个可能透过企业认养是一个方式但是在跟学校的方式在学校"},{"start":683.854,"end":708.942,"text":"基層的意見呢我們應該要做一些相關的座談來收集了解他們現場可能遇到的問題不然我覺得我們只有叫人家開放可是我們都一直沒有去回應他們現場可能就是會有圍管的問題啊經費從哪裡來等等的我覺得這個都不需要去做一個更謹慎的討論這樣才能夠讓大家的政策美意啦可以被接受到好不好我們最近其實有找幾個縣市的局處所長的一些城辦的人員來做討論"},{"start":710.643,"end":735.464,"text":"那他們有幾個縣市甚至有幾個學校也都表達希望針對我們未來的政策有意願來做一個試辦看看那當然我們先做溝通溝通完來選擇有意願的他們先執行那我們再來全面擴大所以會先有一個試辦計畫我們先收集意見做幾個試辦計畫之後我們再來執行就是要先聽聽看基層的聲音回饋對 就是校園活化的部分嘛對不對好 那這樣子我就希望說到時候我們可以有一個不錯的"},{"start":736.545,"end":759.908,"text":"追蹤以及檢討那接下來就是體育班的部分我快速的問一下因為我剛剛有聽到就是說我們現在是用一個六年期的轉型計畫所以我想知道什麼時候我們會有一個比較明確的因為這會影響到就是現在國小體育班的老師他們未來的出路大概什麼時候會有一個比較詳細的計畫呢好 報告委員這個問題能不能容許您九月再問新任可以 沒有問題謝謝"},{"start":761.601,"end":776.753,"text":"好的那接下來我想還是簡單這個我想現在是可以來處理的就是我關於黃金計畫的部分就是我們的黃金計畫目前是針對於這個奪牌備戰洛杉磯奧運為目標有一個黃金計畫3.0"},{"start":778.434,"end":805.646,"text":"那現在是有分一到六級但是根據我收到的最新的消息就是我們第六級原本是針對18歲以下或者是特殊狀況下得以延長到19歲的青年優秀選手來去做一個培養但是目前原本我們希望可以收到30到150人可是現在只有35個人顯然參與意願低落以及機制吸引力不足的確讓我們造成這個人數不如預期的一個狀況"},{"start":807.694,"end":836.183,"text":"那我自己詳細的去了解之後呢我發現我也認為就是我們的計劃目標跟年齡族群不符合因為我們黃金計劃原本就是要奪牌嘛對不對可是你第六級的選手都還是累積積分或是成長的階段其實是很難在短時間累積一個國際化的成果那同時呢我們這個培育時間又非常長變數非常非常的高那路統一的資源考核跟追蹤架構可能也會導致我們的效率評估模糊與資源錯置的問題"},{"start":837.663,"end":857.777,"text":"那同时刚刚还有讲就是我们的诱因跟这个制度的设计不足这个基层的培训跟经费也可能产生互斥加上基层对于评选与升级的机制也不清楚容易产生信任的问题那最后呢现行的制度其实并没有办法建构一个完整选手的发展路径"},{"start":858.698,"end":885.316,"text":"因为黄金计划着重的是短期的表现可是长期的人才培养应该要有另外一套制度好像是LTDA的模型下的分离训练阶段管理系统逐步的来建构接班梯队就例如我们可以把它想像是一个三角形独排选手黄金计划应该是在对顶尖的那一个部分那我们最底层有一个潜优培训计划我们中间是不是也可以有一个计划可能类似就是一个青年优秀选手培育计划呢"},{"start":886.057,"end":893.217,"text":"像這樣子的方式讓我們基層的選手可以得到更好的一個支持啦是不是可以"},{"start":893.766,"end":923.189,"text":"我簡單的說明一下就是在這第六集的環境計畫第六集以及我們的潛優當中其實的確有一些相互重疊還有一些一些gap在中間在裡面我們這請國訓中心跟我們的經濟組再來做一些檢討不過未來我們的確有一些新的想法比方說我們這一次的網球四大運的成績讓我們看到說我們未來可能不要把環境計畫是潛優給所有個人的選手而我們可以把它製造一個網球學校的這樣一個概念"},{"start":924.349,"end":946.199,"text":"讓國家隊跟這個網球學校來合作我們所有的選手青年選手回國的時候統一來這邊因為我們會聘請國際非常優秀的教練來這裡也提供他住宿那讓他們隨時可以進來那不是國訓喔那這樣子的方式可以降低他們資源的浪費他們也不用到處去找各個國際的教練所以這部分也是我們在想一些創新的做法"},{"start":946.519,"end":966.815,"text":"但是我認為啦就是說我們現在其實就有一個千里馬孕科選才計畫嘛我們是不是可以把這個青年優秀選手培育計畫是做一個適度的結合嘛因為你本來就是在培養在從千里馬去找出小的嘛年紀小的我們發現他可能有機會那有機會我們就應該讓他有個青年梯隊在中間的地方讓他一層一層的接上去委員你講的沒有錯所以這部分我們會去做強化當然就是對他的支持特別他要轉職到公開頂尖或者是職業的部分那的確是需要更多的一個資源下去好"},{"start":976.542,"end":999.74,"text":"那所以我聽起來就是說我們現在應該是支持我們有一個這樣子接班梯隊的計畫 對嗎讓接下來還沒有得到奪牌水準的從第六級分離出來更明確的我們是要來培養他未來可以奪牌但不是現在 要去瞄準2028的奧運那接下來我想要再爭取一點點時間一點點時間就是說 那我們的一些我們是不是可以在這件事情上面呢建構一個長期的追蹤資料庫"},{"start":1002.322,"end":1019.261,"text":"像是他的身體素質、技術評量、國際潛力比對等等的我們提供更好的資源來協助他們包含還有經費的部分鮑委員這部分我們會來努力看看這部分我贊同贊同是不是好謝謝那我就期待我們接下來這個我可以什麼時候來追蹤相關的進度呢"},{"start":1021.349,"end":1035.205,"text":"國訓中心嗎?因為這跟國訓中心嘛我們的競技組好了競技組是不是我們跟競技組來追蹤相關的進度那我們大概什麼時候可以來追蹤一下呢因為我知道黃金計畫現在已經火熱熱的在進行嘛對不對是"},{"start":1037.408,"end":1053.851,"text":"對,所以我們大概什麼時候可以把第六集分離出來,產生一個新的規劃呢?包圍我們這部分,包圍我們現在還是在做,還是在討論啦,我想因為運動部會是一個很重要的一個轉折。對,說明還是等9月9號之後是嗎?或許會比較有明確的規劃,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝張雅玲委員諮詢。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時47分）謝謝主席，我想先邀請體育署署長，謝謝。"],["主席：請體育署署長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：因為前面大家都已經問了非常多關於臺師大抽血案的事情，所以這部分我就不講太多。但我有一個很好奇的點，過去其實有非常多家長都一直在關心，因為這幾年已經有層出不窮運動領域狼教練的事件，所以家長都一直很期待是不是可以公布，但是過去都告訴我們因為個資法所以不能公布，可是這一次周台英教練的事件，足協卻是完全全名公布，署長你可以看到右手邊足協公布的內容，一樣是涉嫌兒少性侵案，它都是用三個圈圈取代，可是為什麼周台英教練卻可以全名露出呢？這一點我很納悶，可不可以說明一下？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，關於這部分，我個人認為這是足球協會本身的決定，那是它跟教練之間的事情……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們之前問體育署，體育署都說是因為個資的關係啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：就公部門來講，我們比較嚴謹，我們是希望未來國體法第三十一條能夠增修，藉此賦予法源的依據，我們不是不願意這樣做，未來我們會把這件事情放進下一期國體法的修法當中。"],["張委員雅琳：好，據我所知8月15號就會開會，也就是下禮拜就會開會了，所以我們的目標都是要促成修法對嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：未來有這個法源的話，應該是所有協會有相關事務涉及到兒少都可以公布，其實你現在放三個圈圈，對家長來說是非常恐慌的，因為他並不曉得他的小孩是不是遇到這個教練。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：我們之前問體育署，體育署都會跟我們說請家長去找合格教練，這完全是文不對題！我只是想問在現行還沒有辦法全民公布的狀況之下，到底家長還可以怎麼做呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實我們一直這樣在宣傳、推廣，就是希望家長還是可以到體育署網站去查詢合格教練的名單，他今天如果要去找這個教練，其實可以把他的名字輸進去查詢。"],["張委員雅琳：我理解，但我的意思是說，萬一在他沒有找到合格教練的情況下，又看到三個圈圈的時候，他就會非常緊張，到底可以去哪裡協助這些家長？"],["鄭署長世忠：我建議如果找不到，就不要找這個教練。"],["張委員雅琳：我的問題是他的小孩已經在沒有合格教練的名單上面了嘛，那我們還可以怎麼樣協助家長嗎？在現行個資法及其他都還沒有辦法通過的時候，我們可不可以有其他做法，難道露出一個姓不行嗎？跟足協討論露出一個姓不行嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，主要也是我們法制單位建議，目前還是沒有辦法在現階段完成這件事情，但我們的確往這個方向……"],["張委員雅琳：那我們加速好不好？不要這樣子一直持續下去，我想在場如果是家長的話，看到這三個圈圈都會非常害怕，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來要問有關於運動部的事情，總統的八大政見一直不停的強調我們要全民運動產業化以及競技運動全民化，我看了一下我們的預算規模其實已經超越日本，我們基本上差不多是70億，可是我們的人口數是差了6倍，等於我們每一個人人均分配的體育預算相對來說是高的，我不曉得這麼高的預算，預算的分配是怎麼樣？我們應該要得到很不錯的資源吧！可不可以簡單回應一下。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我國的體育經費跟日本有一個很大的不同，日本民間給予運動產業或是運動協會選手的支持度遠比我國高很多，這也就是為什麼我國在公務預算以及基金預算要稍微拉得比較高一點，最大的差別在這裡，民間的力量……"],["張委員雅琳：你說他們給協會的支持度比較高，但是以我們整個預算規模來說其實是差不多，362億日幣換算成臺幣大概70億左右，將近70億耶！"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們給協會的資源大部分用在選手的培訓以及出國比賽，所以我們給選手的支持度的確在全世界來講應該是蠻前面的才對。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要知道的是，如果70億的資源下去之後，我們的成果會越來越好嗎？具體來說……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，您指的是哪一部分的成果？"],["張委員雅琳：我現在具體來說，因為你剛剛講了362億，他們給協會的資源很多，可是我們是給選手的資源很多。未來因為運動部要成立，我們的預算也會越來越多，這表示我們給協會的資源也會越來越多嗎？是這樣子嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，並沒有，我們接下來的主力會在全民運動這一塊以及工建計畫這一塊的執行。"],["張委員雅琳：好，簡單聽起來公建計畫應該大部分是場館的建置對吧？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，剛剛講到全民運動產業化，對我來說，全民運動一定要產業化，競技運動才能全民化，因為沒有產業，怎麼可能推動全民？我看你的報告就有提到你們會做一些聯賽讓活動看起來更娛樂化、更有可看性等等，我想問的是，現在本來就有一些比賽的播報，但是種類相對有限，未來是會提升更多的場次，還是會提升更多比賽的種類？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們現在的確有一些腹案，我剛剛也有回答其他委員，運動部在9月9號成立之後，會由部長以及新任的全民運動署署長做更細部的規劃，我們現在講說我們期待……因為這部分我們同仁完全沒有做過，我們是希望先把所謂的社區俱樂部做一個明確的定義，其實過去這幾個月我們在做腦力激盪，我們在想到底我們可以補助的對象是哪些。比方說我們會比照文化部，它非常的寬鬆，而現階段教育部體育署的規定是非常的嚴格，因為怕牽涉到圖利的問題，我們希望在業務的部分、在社區聯賽等等，對於俱樂部的支持，讓它點火、讓它發展起來，這個業務就要有相對應的法規去做修改才行，所以這部分會在9月到12月之間來做蠻快速的處理。"],["張委員雅琳：所以你說播報的種類其實受限於法規，我們現在太過僵化對不對？聽起來是這樣。"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：我接下來也想要再請教一下，今天能夠讓大家都看這個比賽，其實還有一個非常重要的點是有沒有精彩，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：還有播報有沒有很有趣，對不對？我知道你們現在這個計畫裡面是有提到你們會跟傳播人才合作。接下來我想要再請教，在賽事的精彩度上面是不是也要有所提升？是不是可以跟協會一起輔導他們舉辦更多的賽事？例如像是Super 100到300等等比較屬於沒那麼高階的，但是它可以吸引我們國內的選手參賽，或者是可以吸引東南亞的選手來參賽，就可以提升可看性，這件事情是可以跟單項協會一起協助他們嗎？因為透過這件事情也才能夠解決財源的問題。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實這部分我在去年的時候也希望能夠大力支持協會來做這件事情，不過礙於基金的負擔實在是非常沉重，因為我們的運發基金不只是賽事的部分，還有人才培育的部分也是一個重點。可是我們運彩目前的收入還沒有辦法足以支持我們每年要做這麼多的事情，所以我們才希望有一些基金能夠回編到公務，但是這部分目前主計總處當然還在做審查當中，這部分我們也在努力，像現在職籃P. LEAGUE+他們就有往東南亞擴張，這是很好的例子，我們也希望協會能夠往這個方向進行。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我現在講的其實是協助，我們接下來會有運產中心，它是不是也可以來做這樣的協助？"],["鄭署長世忠：關於運動產業發展中心，我個人目前對它的期許是在社區基層的部分能夠去做點火的效益出來，我們希望輔導的是基層的賽事、公司或是教練個人工作室，讓教練就業機會以及基層的產業能夠發展起來。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想人才起來之後，一定要有比賽。"],["鄭署長世忠：對，沒有錯。"],["張委員雅琳：一定要有一些比賽。"],["鄭署長世忠：所以像社區的俱樂部，我們可以賦予它社區聯賽的舉辦，我們可以補助它，但是我們現在沒有辦法這樣直接補助，因為它不是公家單位，所以變成要招標、採購，我們希望未來法規可以修法、鬆綁。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以這件事情也是回到法規的部分。最後一個部分我也想要再請教，今天不管是社區也好，要有比賽就要有場地，我們的「千足計畫」從113年到現在，去年是增加了18個案例，可是到現在總共也只有26個場地，因為在我們的計畫裡面也有提到會有場館設施的建立，我想知道明年的規劃是怎麼樣？因為過去都告訴我們縣市不願意，大家都不來申請，未來我們繼續往這個方向推進的時候，我們如何解決過去遇到的這些問題？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們大概分幾個層級，第一個是在國家級、國際級賽事的部分，我們現在有幾個不錯的選項，比方說像退場的首府大學……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們剛講的是社區俱樂部。"],["鄭署長世忠：社區的部分，我們還是一樣積極，我們再盤點，希望各縣市能夠把一些土地挪出來。"],["張委員雅琳：但是之前他們就說沒有意願了，所以這樣還不是一樣……"],["鄭署長世忠：這就是我們困難的地方。"],["張委員雅琳：對啊！"],["鄭署長世忠：我們其實有經費，但是縣市政府不願意來申請。"],["張委員雅琳：那我們要如何解決呢？不然，這件事情就會留在口號階段耶！"],["鄭署長世忠：我想這部分，我們目前想到的是用評比的方式來進行，給縣市政府首長壓力。"],["張委員雅琳：所以你覺得這樣子是有效的嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：試試看。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係。這個部分我們會後再約時間仔細談，我認為除了「千足計畫」要建設場館之外，還有現在學校的場地，之前我有看到部長跟署長都有說跟各個縣市政府有在談校園開放的部分。但是我們最近也看到一些相關政策引發基層反彈，我是認為如果我們要做一些實際使用學校場地的部分，可能透過企業認養是一個方式，但是對於基層的意見，我們應該要做一些相關的座談，蒐集了解他們現場可能遇到的問題，不然我覺得我們只有叫人家開放，可是我們一直都沒有去回應現場可能會有維管的問題、經費從哪裡來等等，我覺得這個都必須要去做一個更謹慎的討論，這樣才能夠讓政策美意可以被接受。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們最近其實有找幾個縣市的局處首長、一些承辦人員來討論，有幾個縣市，甚至有幾個學校也都表達希望針對我們未來的政策，有意願試辦看看，當然我們先溝通，溝通完選擇有意願的先執行，我們再全面擴大。"],["張委員雅琳：所以會先有一個試辦計畫，我們先蒐集意見做幾個試辦計畫之後再執行。"],["鄭署長世忠：就是要先聽聽看基層的聲音、回饋。"],["張委員雅琳：對，就是校園活化的部分，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這樣子我就希望到時候我們可以有一個不錯的追蹤以及檢討。","接下來就是體育班的部分，我快速的問一下，因為我剛剛有聽到，就是我們現在是用一個六年期的轉型計畫，所以我想要知道什麼時候我們會有一個比較明確的計畫，因為這會影響到現在國小體育班老師未來的出路，大概什麼時候會有一個比較詳細的計畫呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個問題能不能等9月再問新任的部長？"],["張委員雅琳：可以，沒有問題。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：好，接下來，我想現在可以來處理的是有關於黃金計畫的部分，我們的黃金計畫目前是以奪牌、備戰洛杉磯奧運為目標，有一個黃金計畫3.0，現在是有分一到六級，但是根據我收到的最新消息，第六級原本是針對18歲以下或者是在特殊狀況下得以延長到19歲的青年優秀選手來加以培養，原本我們希望可以收到30到150人，可是現在只有35個人，顯然參與意願低落，而且機制的吸引力不足，的確造成人數不如預期的狀況。我自己在詳細去了解之後發現我們的計畫目標跟年齡、族群不符合，因為我們這個黃金計畫原本就是要奪牌，可是第六級的選手都還是在累積積分或是成長的階段，其實是很難在短時間累積一個國際化的成果，同時，我們這個培育時間又非常長，變數非常非常的多，納入統一的資源考核和追蹤架構可能也會導致我們有效率評估模糊與資源錯置的問題。剛剛還有講到，就是我們的誘因跟制度的設計不足，基層的培訓跟經費也可能產生互斥，加上基層對於評選與升級的機制也不清楚，容易產生信任的問題。最後，現行的制度其實並沒有辦法建構一個完整的選手發展路徑，因為黃金計畫著重的是短期的表現，可是長期的人才培養應該要有另外一套制度，像是LTDA模型下的分齡訓練階段管理系統，逐步的來建構接班梯隊，我們可以把它想像成一個三角形，奪牌選手黃金計畫應該是在最頂尖的那一個部分，那我們最底層有一個潛優培訓計畫，我們中間是不是也可以有一個計畫，可能類似一個青年優秀選手培育計畫呢？就是像這樣子的方式，讓我們基層的選手可以得到更好的支持，是不是可以？"],["鄭署長世忠：我簡單說明一下，就是在這個黃金計畫第六級及我們的潛優當中其實的確有一些相互重疊，還有一些gap在裡面，我們請國訓中心跟我們的競技組再來做一些檢討，不過未來我們的確有一些新的想法，比方說，這一次世大運中的網球成績讓我們看到，我們未來可能不要把黃金計畫的潛優給所有個人的選手，而我們可以製造一個網球學校這樣的概念，讓國家隊跟網球學校來合作，在我們所有的青年選手回國的時候統一來這邊，因為我們會聘請國際非常優秀的教練來這裡，也提供他們住宿，讓他們隨時可以進來，這並不是國訓，這樣子的方式可以降低他們資源的浪費，他們也不用到處去找各個國際的教練，所以這部分我們也有在想一些創新的作法。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我認為我們現在其實就有一個千里馬運科選才計畫，我們是不是可以和這個青年優秀選手培育計畫去做一個適度的結合，因為你本來就是從千里馬裡面去找出年紀小的，我們發現他可能有機會，既然有機會，我們就應該要有一個青年梯隊在中間的地方，讓他一層一層的接上去。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員，你講的沒有錯，所以這部分我們會去做強化，當然就是對他的支持，特別他要轉職到公開、頂尖或者是職業的部分，那的確是需要更多的資源投下去。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以我聽起來就是你應該是支持我們有一個這樣子的接班梯隊計畫，讓這些還沒有達到奪牌水準的選手從第六級分離出來，更明確的是我們要來培養他未來可以奪牌，但不是現在，是要瞄準2028的奧運。","接下來我想要再爭取一點點時間，就是我們是不是可以在這件事情上面建構一個長期的追蹤資料庫？像他的身體素質、技術評量、國際潛力比對等等，我們提供更好的資源來協助他們，包含經費的部分。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們會來努力看看，這部分我贊同。"],["張委員雅琳：你贊同是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝，那我就期待，我可以什麼時候來追蹤相關的進度呢？這跟國訓中心有關嘛！"],["鄭署長世忠：我想是我們的競技組。"],["張委員雅琳：競技組是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：我們就跟競技組來追蹤相關的進度。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：那我們大概什麼時候可以來追蹤一下呢？因為我知道黃金計畫現在已經在火熱的進行，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們大概什麼時候可以把第六級分離出來並產生一個新的規劃呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們現在還在討論，我想因為運動部會是一個很重要的轉折，所以這部分……"],["張委員雅琳：所以還是等9月9號之後，是嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：或許會比較有明確的規劃，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請林宜瑾召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163408","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163408","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b94fd78471ce8c7e5170dc6911ab88c3aa02881fab7f5768fba11b46a314bfa5925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:43:53 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謝謝主席我想要請劉主委主委"},{"start":13.362,"end":38.461,"text":"我想請教一下就是現在美國已經宣布了課徵百分之百的關稅對半導體晶片那其實我們知道很多的產品晶片不一定是它直接銷售它都是放在各項的產品裡面那未來就這些商品會不會"},{"start":39.622,"end":62.474,"text":"受到波及那如果受到波及的話剛才你說了可能我們的補貼或者是協助產業的預算可能要超過930億那你預估未來有可能是多少我們還要再投入多少來協助產業"},{"start":64.5,"end":82.682,"text":"其實我們這個是我們只是做一些準備就是我剛剛提到的我們是樂觀但是我們在做備援方案的時候我們要有不同的劇本這個是我們的準備項目之一至於會不會發生"},{"start":84.929,"end":107.912,"text":"我們很難去一起但是如果它真的發生會有很巨大的影響會有很巨大的影響那這個還是要看這個實際狀況所以如果含晶片的產品那美國沒有在這一次的就是232的裡面把它豁免的話對於這個整體的產業會有很大的影響是不是"},{"start":108.533,"end":123.162,"text":"那產業現在如果沒有辦法留在台灣你看到我們現在在台灣目前的關稅是20%日韓是15%會不會這些廠商他們會移轉到日韓去做相關的生產這個是不會的現在的20% 15%都不含這些產品這些產品是在豁免清單"},{"start":133.948,"end":143.488,"text":"那它如果會發生它只有一個可能它放進了232來做規範但是一旦是232的規範那就大家都會一樣"},{"start":144.403,"end":169.718,"text":"所以如果放在232裡面日韓的也是一樣的都一樣所以都不會受到相關的那第二個事情也跟委員報告因為台灣這種屬於這個部分的大廠幾乎都在墨西哥跟美國在佈局中那其實大家都有做很好的準備"},{"start":170.888,"end":192.606,"text":"是在美國跟墨西哥現在是在達拉斯在墨西哥都是那我們也知道美墨之間的各種的協議裡面都沒有觸及到這個USDNA的部分所以呢事實上在墨西哥還是受USDNA的保障在那即使到達拉斯也是"},{"start":193.487,"end":204.106,"text":"也是在美國境內那所以如果他按照這次晶片的方式來做的話我們這幾個大廠大概因為都在美國境內也有投資所以影響就會比較小"},{"start":204.912,"end":228.281,"text":"好 那現在美國要求就是不管是要求也好 暗示也好就是希望台積電能夠多投資那但是我不是以你就公司利益的角度來看這件事我是就國家未來經濟發展的角度來看這件事情未來我們怎麼樣子"},{"start":230.342,"end":257.115,"text":"讓台積電的優勢能夠留在台灣因為我們知道目前不管是AI產業以及其他相關你們規劃的發展都是在這樣子相關的基礎之下你怎麼樣子協助台積電讓最關鍵的技術留在台灣能夠讓下一個世代的這樣子的一個產業發展不會受到影響"},{"start":257.975,"end":287.305,"text":"你有什麼樣子的策略委員您問這個題目是非常非常重要的一個題目所以我們第一個我們兩件事情第一個我們在審核的時候我們對於關鍵技術最新技術我們不會讓它優先出去以台積電現在往1.4奈米的方向在走的時候它的廠目前的規劃都在台灣所以現在2奈米也在台灣其他地方也還沒有"},{"start":287.905,"end":306.276,"text":"所以關鍵技術我們是守得住的第二個部分它的研發有一萬多人那幾乎百分之九十幾以上都在這裡除了製程的部分以外都在台灣那關鍵的領導團隊也在台灣總部也在台灣所以基本上是絕對守得住的"},{"start":307.349,"end":321.806,"text":"那投資來講的話目前台灣的再建工程正在進行建設的廠也是最多的遠遠超過六個廠遠遠超過在海外的部分所以這一點我們是很有信心的"},{"start":322.574,"end":344.449,"text":"好那你要有信心可是問題是現在昨天就新聞就是做很大嘛就是東京的威力科創它對於我們台積電的2奈米的金屬可能在某一些製程上面都是獨家的製程嘛"},{"start":344.929,"end":356.443,"text":"可能它的光容積的那個光阻塗布啊或者是它的電晶體製成的溶顆等等這都是這個台積電兩奈米的這樣關鍵製成那問題是未來怎麼樣子"},{"start":361.229,"end":378.159,"text":"如果台積電跟東京的威力科創它進行訴訟會不會影響到目前我們在日本的投資呢會不會這個跟在日本投資是我認為是沒有關聯性的"},{"start":378.979,"end":401.178,"text":"那你講的是一般來講很多企業在進行輸送中還是會進行交易因為這是兩件事一個是針對兩個部門的事情那日本的確在特殊化學等領域是全球領先的地位那其實半導體產業本來就是很多第一合在一起的我們是製造第一"},{"start":401.758,"end":420.119,"text":"他在化特用化學是第一那當然還有像ASMO的光刻機是第一那美國有很多的第一是兜起來的本來就是兜起來的那我們從國家的產業韌性這也是我們之前有報告過我們會強化兩塊的發展一個就是特用化學的發展一個是設備的發展"},{"start":421.34,"end":435.85,"text":"所以我們台灣的特用化學有辦法遵應嗎我們想要往這裡進行突破那特用化學目前有一些我們分大廠小廠大廠大部分都比較目前是偏向後段製程的化學那以走純度為第一"},{"start":436.63,"end":459.839,"text":"那現在有一些小廠已經開始在太空化學進行發展因為這些人都有一定的關鍵技術所以我們也一直在往這個方向來輔導那另外在設備部分我們也希望提高我們的自治率我們的目標是希望在八成以上所以我們一直在往這裡發展讓我們的整個韌性的提升會比較完整第二個一個帶動產業的發展跟更多的經濟的發展"},{"start":463.612,"end":491.226,"text":"那這一次的就是說關於他的那個機密被竊的這樣事件會不會影響到整個兩奈米的佈局會不會應該不會兩奈米的佈局目前只有在台灣不會有到日本目前他也沒有兩奈米的佈局他之前是在七奈米六奈米左右那個範圍內那是二廠但二廠現在是延後了"},{"start":492.046,"end":503.691,"text":"那整個兩奈米佈局目前只有在台灣在高雄那下一個世代預計應該會在也是在台灣在中部跟南部各一目前都在規劃中了"},{"start":505.814,"end":526.741,"text":"好那最後我想要請問你就是說我們還有傳產的出口這個部分我們剛才講的都是半導體以及科技業的相關的產品出口那傳產的出口呢那對於傳產的出口我們知道現在對美的這個部分影響很大那怎麼樣子協助廠商"},{"start":528.906,"end":549.124,"text":"我們協助廠商就是我們編列的短期因應方案就是在出口的協助包括他的保險他的運輸等等我們與協助之外那我們也協助他進行研發的改造讓他的這個讓過去比較比價格的可以進到比"},{"start":549.915,"end":576.267,"text":"比那個技術的部分那中長期的部分我們也在AI時代建設有一個產業AI化裡面兩個重點一個重點就是三個重點第一個重點就是產品的AI化讓它的跟這個競爭會提升另外就是在它的運作流程供應鏈上還有在銷售上面都是透過AI化來協助他們來做所以我們才會有一個"},{"start":577.768,"end":595.796,"text":"AI運用百萬家的計畫出來希望讓大家透過AI的方式發展那我們也會給予適度的協助在經費這些方面讓他們再轉型在中長期的部分那也就是為什麼我們在中部推動那個推動這個智慧精密新核心的原因在這裡"},{"start":596.556,"end":614.485,"text":"我們希望政府可以持續的推動整個AI的轉型然後協助這些傳產企業能夠讓他們的產品在國際上更具競爭力才不會受到現在這一波的關稅以及匯率的影響 好不好好的 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時43分）謝謝主席。我想要請劉主委。"],["主席：主委。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委早。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝召委。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請教一下，現在美國已經宣布對半導體晶片課徵100%的關稅，其實我們知道很多晶片不一定是直接銷售，都是放在各項產品裡面，未來這些商品會不會受到波及？如果受到波及，剛才你說了我們補貼或者協助產業的預算可能要超過930億，你預估未來有可能是多少？我們還要再投入多少來協助產業？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們只是做一些準備，就是我剛剛提到的，我們樂觀，但在做備援方案的時候，我們要有不同的劇本，這是我們的準備項目之一。至於會不會發生，我們很難預期，如果真的發生會有很巨大的影響，所以還是要看實際狀況。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果美國沒有在這一次的232條款裡面，把含晶片的產品豁免，對於整體產業會有很大的影響，是不是？臺灣目前的關稅是20%，日韓是15%，產業如果沒有辦法留在臺灣，這些廠商會不會移轉到日韓生產？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是不會的，現在的20%、15%都不含這些產品，這些產品是在豁免清單，如果會發生只有一個可能，就是放進232條款規範，一旦適用232條款的規範，大家就會都一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果放在232條款裡面，日韓也是一樣的，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：都一樣，就像這次晶片都一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以都不會受到相關的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也跟委員報告第二件事情，因為臺灣屬於這個部分的大廠幾乎都在墨西哥跟美國布局中，其實大家都有做很好的準備。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是在美國跟墨西哥？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，現在在達拉斯、墨西哥都是。我們也知道美墨之間的各種協議裡面都沒有觸及到USMCA的部分，事實上墨西哥還是受USMCA的保障，即使到達拉斯，也是在美國境內。如果它按照這次晶片的方式來做，我們這幾個大廠因為都有在美國境內投資，所以影響就會比較小。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在美國不管是要求也好、暗示也好，就是希望台積電能夠多投資，我不是要你就公司利益的角度來看這件事，而是就國家未來經濟發展的角度來看這件事，未來我們怎麼樣讓台積電的優勢能夠留在臺灣？因為我們知道目前不管是AI產業以及其他相關你們規劃的未來發展，都是在這樣的基礎之下，你怎麼樣協助台積電，把最關鍵的技術留在臺灣，能夠讓下一個世代的產業發展不會受到影響？你有什麼樣的策略？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員問的這個題目是非常、非常重要的一個題目，有兩件事情，第一、我們在審核的時候，對於關鍵技術、最新技術，不會讓它優先出去。台積電現在往1.4奈米的方向在走，它的廠目前規劃都設在臺灣，現在2奈米也在臺灣，其他地方也還沒有，所以關鍵技術我們是守得住的。第二、它的研發有一萬多人，幾乎百分之九十幾以上都在這裡，除了製程的部分以外，都在臺灣，關鍵的領導團隊也在臺灣，總部也在臺灣，所以基本上是絕對守得住的。投資來講的話，目前臺灣的再建工程正在進行，建設的廠也是最多的，有六個廠，遠遠超過在海外的部分，這一點我們是很有信心的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：雖然你有信心，可問題是昨天新聞報很大，東京的威力科創疑竊台積電2奈米的技術，可能在某一些製程上都是獨家的製程，可能是光刻機的光阻塗佈或者是電晶體製程的蝕刻等等，這些都是台積電2奈米的關鍵製程。問題是未來如果台積電跟東京的威力科創進行訴訟，會不會影響到目前我們在日本的投資呢？會不會？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認為這個跟在日本投資是沒有關聯性的，您講的是一般來講，很多企業在進行訴訟中還是會進行交易，因為這是兩件事，一個是針對兩個部門的事情，日本的確在特用化學等領域是全球領先的地位，其實半導體產業本來就是很多第一合在一起的，我們是製造第一，它在特用化學是第一，當然還有像ASML的光刻機是第一，美國也有很多的第一，本來就是兜起來的。我們從國家的產業韌性來發展，這也是我們之前有報告過，我們會強化兩塊的發展，一個就是特用化學的發展，一個是設備的發展……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以我們臺灣的特用化學有辦法支應嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們想要往這裡進行突破，特用化學目前我們分大廠、小廠，大廠大部分目前都比較偏向後段製程的化學，以走純度為第一考量，現在有一些小廠已經開始在特用化學領域進行發展，因為這些人都有一定的關鍵技術，所以我們也一直在往這個方向來輔導，另外在設備部分，我們也希望提高自製率，我們的目標是希望在八成以上，所以我們一直在往這裡發展，整體的韌性提升會比較完整。第二個，也可以帶動產業及更多的經濟發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這一次關於機密被竊的事件，會不會影響到整個2奈米的布局？會不會？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該不會，2奈米的布局目前只有在臺灣會有，日本目前也沒有2奈米的布局，它之前是7奈米、6奈米那個範圍內，那是二廠，但二廠現在是延後了，整個2奈米布局目前只有在臺灣、在高雄，下一個世代預計應該也是在臺灣，在中部跟南部各一，目前都在規劃中了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，最後我想要請問你，我們還有傳產出口這個部分，我們剛才講的都是半導體以及科技業的相關產品出口，傳產的出口呢？對於傳產的出口，我們知道現在對美這部分影響很大，怎麼樣協助廠商？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們協助廠商的部分就是編列短期的因應方案，針對出口，包括它的保險、運輸等等，我們予以協助之外，我們也協助它進行研發的改造，讓過去比價格的可以進到比技術的部分。中長期的部分，我們在AI十大建設有一個產業AI化，裡面有三個重點，第一個重點就是產品的AI化，會讓它的競爭提升，另外就是在它的運作流程、供應鏈，還有在銷售上面都透過AI化來協助他們，所以我們才會有一個AI應用百萬家的計畫出來，希望讓大家透過AI的方式發展，我們也會給予適度的協助，在經費這些方面讓他們再轉型，這是中長期的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這也就是為什麼我們在中部推動智慧精密新核心的原因。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們希望政府可以持續推動整個AI的轉型，然後協助這些傳產企業，能夠讓他們的產品在國際上更具競爭力，才不會受到現在這一波的關稅以及匯率的影響，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：謝謝。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：現在請張嘉郡委員做詢答，張嘉郡委員不在、張嘉郡委員不在。","現在請陳超明委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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請教育部政部長以及國科會書副主委請部長副主委備諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":17.523,"end":38.472,"text":"委員好部長好部長我這邊要先就人工智慧學成聯盟這個問題來就教部長本期一直都很關心教育部新開設的人工智慧學成聯盟從休課人數學校發放獎勵金給有選休課的學生到選課學生退選"},{"start":40.013,"end":58.107,"text":"本席都有强调我们应该要因材施教也希望说教育部这边要积极规划不同程度的课程给不同程度的学生来选课但从整个新闻的报道这个结果呢本席觉得非常遗憾关于休闭学生只有四到六成这个状况部长您的看法呢"},{"start":59.554,"end":81.826,"text":"我跟你們報告,本來我們這個TICA這個人工智慧大學聯盟本來就是在彌補我們現有大學裡面,譬如說在AI的人才比較多集中在台城清教那還有很多的學生,很多年輕的學子,他們也希望能夠學AI但是學校本身可沒有開這個課,然後也沒有辦法去修課"},{"start":82.566,"end":104.971,"text":"所以才有希望又部長我知道您當初我們教育部開設這個學城聯盟的利益是良善的是好的我們也都是支持的但是我現在有從您的這樣子還沒有讓你講完但是我覺得從您的回答來看您並不覺得說這個四到六成這個狀況這個有什麼不好有什麼需要改善那我現在請教您人工智慧學城聯盟還會不會繼續下去"},{"start":107.165,"end":113.59,"text":"我想這個是有價值的應該因為線上學習本來就沒有說每一個人要學但是多一個資源請問授課的方式我們會不會調整我們會不會去增加不同的難易程度的課程來提供學生做選擇我跟委員報告我們確實這一個團隊感謝這個清大這個台大這一個台城清教所組的這個教師團隊他們也在思考規劃不同的一些這一個程度的這些的課程"},{"start":135.486,"end":156.926,"text":"所以會做調整就對了是 我們跟委員報告第二學期事實上已經double由原來2400多將近5000人休課而且通過率也有7乘5表示說學生來自不同的剛開始很多的學校的學生可能不一定知道有這個資源慢慢它隨著擴散越來越多受益"},{"start":158.271,"end":179.798,"text":"部長這邊我還是要強調說本席是支持的這個人工智慧學成聯盟的利益是良善的也受到業者很高度的期待所以我們是希望說藉由這樣的課程我們來增加相關科技人才來培育及養成但是我們課程如果出現需要調整的地方培養科技人才的方向沒有錯但是我們必須要有適合學生的課程來提供給他們來選然後"},{"start":182.159,"end":203.365,"text":"可以一直休息下去而不是選課之後馬上退掉那本席過去有提醒你們的相關的問題顯然教育部你們也沒有很重視所以我會希望說教育部你們檢討改進之後呢我們有持續下去這樣的課程提供給學生來做選課來學習我相信說只要有改善本席相信說大家都會支持的"},{"start":204.025,"end":230.46,"text":"那另外這邊我想請教國科會就是目前我們這兩天的新聞台積電報出二奈米製程移遭這個外洩這個事件這個是已經進入司法調查的程序那這一次的這個機密外洩的事件呢台積電這邊有沒有跟國會這邊來分享阿里又分享他們經驗就是說如何防止機密外洩的事件擴及其他國安產業也提醒其他相關的產業要做好保密的工作"},{"start":231.345,"end":256.063,"text":"是謝謝委員這個部分這個案子其實是台積電本身在例行性的檢查裡面發現有異常然後主動通報這個法務部高檢署那國科會針對國家核心關鍵技術的部分其實跟法務部有協作的機制就是說將來這個機制在技術上面涉及到各部會的核心關鍵技術的部分該怎麼樣來處理其實我們已經有協作的機制以上報告"},{"start":256.363,"end":273.452,"text":"好 謝謝這次的事件其實引起軒然大波因為這個二奈米的製程是屬於國家核心關鍵的技術那針對這次的外線案也希望說當作一個教材讓業界來參考希望可以更全面的防堵相關的犯罪來守護我國的核心關鍵技術"},{"start":274.913,"end":292.64,"text":"那接下來呢我想請教關於從剛才的每個委員都非常關心的台式大女足抽血案的這個後續那國客會這邊有表示說會嚴以加重違反學術倫理的處罰那這邊想請教國客會以目前的規範是停止涉案人一"},{"start":293.32,"end":311.541,"text":"一年到十年不能申請國科會的計畫那未來你們所謂的加重要如何加重是將地板跟天花板同學拉高還是會做出向前追溯追討補助款的處罰那目前針對台師大女竹這個案子國科會有沒有考慮說會追討之前精準運動計畫這個補助款"},{"start":313.143,"end":327.079,"text":"是 這幾個方向我們都有在研議在進行所以會將來加重的部分包含停權追回相關的研究經費或者是對於執行的機構它的管理費的減除我們都有會進行"},{"start":328.16,"end":344.488,"text":"所以會追溯追討之前的相關的計劃的補助那同時這個加重處罰的部分就是這樣本來是一年到十年不能再申請這個部分可能就會拉大距離可能是往後延十五年或二十年都可能你們在研議中最小處分"},{"start":346.409,"end":351.313,"text":"謝謝副主委這邊其實我要要求國科會這邊針對這個有人體試驗的這個計畫應該要進行盤點以及要重新檢視相關的規範我們要全面杜絕相關的事件在發生的可能性那第二個部分就是相關的研究計畫不管是受試者還是失策者"},{"start":366.006,"end":389.745,"text":"應該要充分的都是知情的同意的並且也充分了解自身的權益這一點我很要求就是說一定要落實做到以避免像類似的事件再發生是好謝謝副主委那這邊我想請教教育部本週呢我們將針對這個台式大典主案涉案的29件涉抽血的這個案子入校查核那我想知道一下現在目前的進度是什麼"},{"start":390.892,"end":413.168,"text":"跟委員報告目前有三個學校需要查核那已經完成了其中台師大的查核接下來台大跟北市大我們都會再繼續陸續進行查核好那針對國科會有90件涉採血樣本的計畫我們未來會如何查核以及有什麼相關違規處罰的機制呢教育部這邊是不是也可以一併說明"},{"start":414.489,"end":430.171,"text":"報告委員在我們的跨部會的專案小組當中國科會也把這97案交由教育部跟衛福部分別依照我們的權責要進行後續的查處那如果確實有違反IRB的部分我們也會依法來究責"},{"start":431.272,"end":452.062,"text":"所以已經很正式的把這些該查核的部分都很嚴謹的已經在陸續的進行當中這邊我要強調一下這次的談事大的女主案不僅牽涉到研究倫理學術倫理霸凌其實也再次的揭露了學生對老師教練以及運動員當中這個階級的部分很嚴重的權力不對等的狀況那其實也坐實了我們對學生權益的不重視"},{"start":459.705,"end":466.337,"text":"部長您對這個事件整個的狀況您到現在您有什麼樣的說法跟想法持平日我是非常的沉痛這超乎我的想像"},{"start":472.827,"end":489.044,"text":"所以很多事情是沒有說出來不見得它是不存在的那這次的事件爆發之後其實我的辦公室也接受到了類似就是教授為了自身的研究將必修學分握在手上要求學生代替老師去發放這個問卷做調查"},{"start":490.526,"end":513.272,"text":"如果學生他不知道做呢可能就是沒有辦法畢業的這樣的陳情喔那我這邊很憂心的是說如果這種狀況是常態那我們到底要怎麼樣改善我也希望教育部你們可以開始著手去了解相關的狀況讓我們的孩子不會成為某些無良教授的這個下手的目標這個部分部長你可以承諾嗎是可以齁我想這一定要做的"},{"start":513.922,"end":527.209,"text":"好 謝謝那書副主委你先請回部長接下來剛剛提到這個部分我接下來要跟您請教就是關於霸凌的部分那教育部這份資料從112年到114年到現在校案通報的霸凌件數從112年的3256件到114年的113年就暴增到4178件"},{"start":539.855,"end":546.878,"text":"平均是一個月就有348件的這個通報案件那在114年1到6月上半年就高達2631件平均是一個月就有438件那這個通報的數字顯示說包含不管是生對生或是失對生的霸凌當然教育部的說法都是說因為通報數不等於成案數是因為現在大家比較有自我的意識對這個霸凌的防治啊這個重視所以才會有這麼多的通報的案件"},{"start":568.726,"end":596.503,"text":"但是我這邊憂心的是說我們的教育場域不該成為霸凌的溫床我們如何加強防治讓學生甚至不管什麼年齡都可以清楚的了解到自己的權益及做到自我保護像台師大女儲案海洋科大特教生案都是這個師對生嚴重權力不對等的霸凌相繼被揭發那部長您覺得您應該要如何加強才能減少霸凌案一直發生"},{"start":601.001,"end":625.715,"text":"我想我們確實在許多的這個霸凌的這個防治的一個層面裡面的這一個從程序從法令從層面上我們的考慮應該都可以再更精進那我想我們會再有一個專業的團隊更細緻的來研議看怎麼樣來改善因為確實我們有許多的校園友善包含老師的班級經營的真人包含"},{"start":628.817,"end":649.452,"text":"怎麼樣去有一個SEL這個從家長社區到學校一起變成一個學校友善校園的一個提供不是只是學校而已就把整個系統從社區裡面的能量也都能夠拉進來那我想這一個怎麼樣讓它能夠更細緻更到位我想這我們會認真來這個檢討來精進"},{"start":652.975,"end":665.931,"text":"更細緻更到位你們會再繼續來研議那有沒有預設大概什麼期程什麼時候會有相關的一些比較具體的做法出來您給自己多少時間"},{"start":667.099,"end":691.474,"text":"事實上包含我們現在包含譬如說我們學校的空間怎麼樣去提供有一個更能夠有趣能夠讓學生能夠遊戲而不是只是學生只是都抱著3C手機等等的我們其實就前面但是也許是不是委員讓我們有一段時間把它更想清楚我想年底之前給委員一個更完整的一個報告說明"},{"start":692.355,"end":704.842,"text":"好 那就請你們這邊演繹相關出來之後呢那給一份報告給我辦公室那接下來我再請教關於張氏的輔資爆出性騷的這個案件部長 張氏大的輔資系培養了很多優秀的心理師"},{"start":711.125,"end":719.854,"text":"那殭屍的輔資也是中部職業心理師他們回去拿真人一個上課程一個系所所以這個事件爆發出來之後其實很震撼輔導跟諮商界那這就像剛才本席所說的我們對學生的權益不重視"},{"start":727.381,"end":748.736,"text":"那張師大的事件發生之後呢退休的這個涉案教授在府之間是非常有重量的一個教師那相關的從業人員都應該上過這位教授的課甚至讀過他的書我想說部長事件的發生是可以引導我們正確的方向前進但是我們必須要及時修正那張師傅"},{"start":750.897,"end":762.082,"text":"培育出來的心理師平常他們就是在做療癒心理治療的工作可是他自己卻自身遭受到這樣子不可磨滅的傷害所以我會希望說教育部你們這邊針對諮商圈的連署發出來的要求要做出回應"},{"start":767.284,"end":788.082,"text":"他們的要求是希望說因為現在張士大的這個事件呢校方是說一個退休一個報解聘兩個在調查中但是其實對整個輔助圈他們的意思就是說整個事件已經都成立了校方卻讓這個教授退休這讓他們很不能接受而且他們是要求要公開決議結果"},{"start":789.924,"end":801.588,"text":"所以這邊我也希望說教育部你們本身對這件事情你們要有所回應而且要緊盯張師大後續的相關的處理那這個部分呢我們教育部現在你們如何來協助我們會為這一個成立專案小組在實際的到這一個張師大去了解整個這個情形因為以張師大當時報上來的確實他校教評會"},{"start":816.531,"end":842.081,"text":"是沒有構成這個解聘停聘嘛等於說做成這樣的一個決議嘛然後這個彰化縣政府也大概就是等於說這針對這個情節這個做成決議是才罰三萬塊那我想來自於這一個整個的調查裡兵當時的這一個這一個張士大報來到教育部因為他沒有涉及到"},{"start":842.621,"end":871,"text":"到這個解聘這個停聘的一個階段所以教育部才本以這個法令上這個同意他回函同意他退休那如果從這個事件來看還有許多的疑慮這個需要去釐清的我想我們教育部會進一步來來瞭解來繼續講謝謝部長有表達了你們的立場跟你們的態度但是對這個諮商圈的這個連署他這個做回應的這個部分我也希望說您這邊一定要督促"},{"start":872.681,"end":898.393,"text":"所做的這個要求包括公開決議的結果以及後續的這些相關的處理喔最後我要求這個事件的發生一定會衝擊到在校學生所以本期希望說教育部這邊可以督促張士大對在校學生進行相關的心理輔導來降低學生這個衝擊以及他們的焦慮這個部分希望你們可以盡快好那再來呢我再借主席一點時間喔"},{"start":899.634,"end":911.492,"text":"最後我要關心就是關於運動部的成立運動部將在下個月9號正式成立我想請教一下部長或是署長你們認為說運動部成立之後首要目標是什麼"},{"start":914.461,"end":933.889,"text":"報告委員我想基於總統的所謂一個大的一個體育政策是競技運動全民化那也這也是我們成立全新運動部一個最重要的一個亮點主軸所以在未來在全民運動這一塊的社區的運動的推廣方面會是我們所要的一個準備工作社區運動的推廣"},{"start":935.149,"end":943.332,"text":"其實大家在運動部的期待都很深希望說運動部成立之後可以更全面的來推動全民運動可以守護運動員以及更落實運動員的權益但是這邊本席要提出幾點最近一次的運動部諮詢小組會議都有提到說應該建立教練管理培訓的這個機制"},{"start":953.655,"end":957.579,"text":"那這次台式大女竹這個事件裡面對於教練事任檢討的這個聲音我想不論是未來誰擔任運動部的部長都應該很積極來建立相關的程序並且要很嚴格的落實那第二個部分呢運動部有研擬就是國小體育班要轉型"},{"start":973.174,"end":992.484,"text":"但是本席這邊接受到很多孩子正在體育班就讀的家長都非常的憂心也認為說你們都沒有事先做好溝通那本席建議說國小體育班轉型這個配套我們應該要去加強輔導及宣導來降低教練家長以及學生的焦慮這個部分我希望你們可以盡快著手"},{"start":993.044,"end":1021.043,"text":"我這邊不好意思我先做一個澄清所謂的體育班轉型其實我們是給他六年的時間所以請大家也不用太過於憂心我們配套會把它做好的好那關於第三個部分是關於競技運動全民化的目標裡面裡面有提到說社區運動俱樂部的推動那很多鄉親非常的關心就是所謂的社區運動俱樂部的相關規定及配套那我要想請教像太極拳社團土風舞排舞社團這到底符不符合"},{"start":1021.323,"end":1050.437,"text":"民眾他們都很關心所以這個部分呢該如何溝通該如何去宣導跟輔導我希望說我們這邊已經有一個相關的辦法出來報告委員這其實應該是說在九月份部長跟全民署的署長到任之後呢我們會在年底之前因為我們所有的經費是明年開始嘛那在這個期間我們其實會把他說的機制業務的需求與相對應的法規的修改都會在這個期間來進行那事實上我們現在已經有一些"},{"start":1051.317,"end":1060.681,"text":"有一些案子 有一些副案但是還是要等新的署長跟部長到任之後才能真正來實施好 那就是相關的辦法你們在研擬中那第四個就是最後的部分運動員的自我權益的意識應該向下衍生本期希望運動部會把這個運動員權益列入運動員課程或是講習"},{"start":1073.007,"end":1101.616,"text":"要從根本來建立自我保護的這個權利的意識來防止說運動界這個傳統的陋習這個部分我覺得非常重要我們讓運動員知道在怎樣的一個程度下是要自我保護要啟動這樣的機制那最後我也希望說運動部部長的人選可以盡快公佈因為這個很多的建議很多的聲音都希望是很切實可以傳達到運動部部長這邊不要讓國人覺得說運動部的成立只是跌床架屋謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":1102.5,"end":1103.482,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢 官員請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時29分）謝謝主席，請教育部鄭部長以及國科會蘇副主委。"],["主席：請部長、副主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長好。我這邊要先就人工智慧學程聯盟這個問題來就教部長，本席一直都很關心教育部新開設的人工智慧學程聯盟，從修課人數、學校發放獎勵金給有選修課的學生，到選課學生退選，本席都有強調我們應該要應材施教，也希望教育部要積極規劃不同程度的課程給不同程度的學生來選課。但根據新聞的報導，這個結果本席覺得非常遺憾，關於修畢學生只有四到六成這個狀況，部長，您的看法呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，本來這個人工智慧大學聯盟（TAICA）就是在彌補我們現有大學裡，譬如說AI的人才比較都集中在臺、成、清、交，還有很多的學生、很多年輕的學子也希望能夠學AI，但是學校本身可能沒有開這個課，然後也沒有辦法去修課，所以才希望……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，我知道當初教育部開設這個學程聯盟的立意是良善、是好的，我們也都是支持的，雖然我還沒有讓你講完，但是我覺得從您的回答來看，你並不覺得這個四到六成的狀況有什麼不好、有什麼需要改善……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想第一學期……"],["陳委員秀寳：那我現在請教您，人工智慧學程聯盟還會不會繼續下去？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個是有價值的，應該……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以會持續？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為線上學習本來就沒有要求每一個人要學，但是多一個資源。"],["陳委員秀寳：那麼請問授課的方式會不會調整，或是我們會不會去增加不同的難易程度的課程來提供學生做選擇？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，感謝臺、成、清、交所組的這個教師團隊，他們也在思考規劃不同程度的課程。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以會做調整就對了？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，跟委員報告，第二學期事實上人數已經double，由原來的兩千四百多人變成將近5,000人修課，而且通過率有七成五，表示剛開始很多學校的學生可能不一定知道有這個資源，慢慢隨著消息的擴散，有越來越多人受益。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，我還是要強調本席是支持的，這個人工智慧學程聯盟的立意是良善的，也受到業者很高度的期待，我們是希望藉由這樣的課程來增加相關科技人才的培育及養成，但是課程如果出現需要調整的地方，培養科技人才的方向沒有錯，而我們必須要有適合學生的課程提供給他們來選，然後可以一直修習下去，而不是選課之後馬上退掉。本席過去有提醒你們相關的問題，顯然教育部也沒有很重視，所以會希望教育部檢討改進之後持續提供這樣的課程給學生來選課、來學習，只要有改善，本席相信大家都會支持的。","另外我想請教國科會，這兩天新聞報導指出台積電爆出2奈米製程疑遭外洩的事件，已經進入司法調查的程序。這一次這個機密外洩的事件，台積電有沒有跟國科會分享他們的經驗，就是如何防止機密外洩的事件擴及其他國安產業，也提醒其他相關的產業要做好保密的工作？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是，謝謝委員，這個案子其實是台積電本身在例行性的檢查裡面發現有異常，然後主動通報法務部高檢署。國科會針對國家核心關鍵技術的部分其實跟法務部有協作的機制，就是將來在技術上面涉及到各部會核心關鍵技術的部分該怎麼樣來處理，其實我們已經有協作的機制，以上報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。這次的事件其實引起軒然大波，因為2奈米的製程是屬於國家核心關鍵的技術，這次的外洩案也希望當作一個教材讓業界來參考，希望可以更全面防堵相關的犯罪，守護我國的核心關鍵技術。","接下來我想請教關於剛才每個委員也都非常關心的臺師大女足抽血案的後續，國科會有表示會研擬加重違反學術倫理的處罰，想請教國科會，目前的規範是停止涉案人1年到10年不能申請國科會的計畫，未來你們所謂的加重是要如何加重？是將地板跟天花板同時拉高，還是會做出向前追溯、追討補助款的處罰？目前針對臺師大女足這個案子，國科會有沒有考慮會追討之前精準運動計畫這個補助款？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是，這幾個方向我們都有在研議在進行，所以將來加重的部分包含停權、追回相關的研究經費，或者是對於執行機構管理費的減除，我們都有進行。"],["陳委員秀寳：會追溯、追討之前相關計畫的補助，同時加重處罰，本來是1年到10年不能申請的這個部分可能就會拉大距離？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：可能是往後延，15年或20年都可能，你們在研議中嘛？"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是，或是提升最小處分的標準。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝副主委，其實我要要求，國科會針對有人體試驗的計畫應該要進行盤點，以及要重新檢視相關的規範，我們要全面杜絕相關事件再發生的可能性。第二個部分，相關的研究計畫，不管是受試者還是施測者，都應該是充分知情、同意的，並且也充分了解自身的權益，這一點我要求一定要落實、做到，以避免類似的事件再發生。"],["蘇副主任委員振綱：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝副主委。","再來，我想請教教育部，本週我們將針對臺師大女足案涉案的29件抽血案子入校查核，我想知道目前的進度是什麼？"],["廖司長高賢：跟委員報告，目前有3個學校需要查核，已經完成了其中臺師大的查核，接下來臺大跟北市大，我們都會陸續進行查核。"],["陳委員秀寳：針對國科會有97件涉採血樣本的計畫，你們未來會如何查核，以及有什麼相關違規處罰的機制？教育部是不是也可以一併說明？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，在我們跨部會的專案小組當中，國科會也把這97案交由教育部跟衛福部，分別依照我們的權責進行後續的查處，如果確實有違反IRB的部分，我們也會依法來究責。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以今天已經很正式的把這些該查核的部分都很嚴謹的陸續在進行當中。"],["廖司長高賢：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。我還是要強調一下，這次臺師大女足案不僅牽涉到研究倫理、學術倫理、霸凌，其實也再次揭露了學生對老師、教練，以及運動員在階級的部分有很嚴重權力不對等的狀況，也坐實了我們對學生權益的不重視。部長，對這整個事件的狀況，到現在您有什麼樣的說法跟想法？"],["鄭部長英耀：持平而論，我是非常的沉痛，這超乎我的想像。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以很多事情沒有說出來，不見得它是不存在的。這次的事件爆發之後，其實我的辦公室也接到了類似教授為了自身的研究，將必修學分握在手上，要求學生代替老師去發放問卷做調查，如果學生不照做，可能就沒有辦法畢業這樣的陳情。我很憂心的是，如果這種狀況是常態，那我們到底要怎麼改善？我也希望教育部可以開始著手去了解相關的狀況，讓我們的孩子不會成為某些無良教授下手的目標。這個部分，部長可以承諾嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：可以嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這是一定要做的。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。蘇副主委，你先請回。","部長，因為剛剛提到這個部分，我接下來要跟您請教關於霸凌的部分。教育部這份資料是從112年統計到114年，到現在校安通報的霸凌件數，112年是3,256件，113年就暴增到4,178件，平均一個月就有348件的通報案件，在114年1到6月，光上半年就高達2,631件，平均一個月就有438件。這個通報的數字顯示包含不管是生對生或是師對生的霸凌，當然教育部的說法都是通報數不等於成案數，因為現在大家比較有自我意識，加上對霸凌防制的重視，所以才會有這麼多的通報案件。但是我憂心的是，我們的教育場域不該成為霸凌的溫床，我們該如何加強防制，讓學生，甚至不管什麼年齡的人，都可以清楚的了解自己的權益及做到自我保護？像臺師大女足案、海洋科大特教生案，都是師對生嚴重權利不對等的霸凌相繼被揭發，部長覺得你應該要如何加強，才能減少霸凌案一直發生？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想在許多霸凌防制的層面，從程序、從法令、從層面上，我們的考慮應該都可以再更精進，我們會再有一個專業的團隊更細緻的來研議，看怎麼樣來改善。因為確實我們有許多的校園友善，包含老師的班級經營的增能，包含怎麼樣去有一個SEL，從家長、社區到學校一起變成一個系統，友善校園的提供不只是學校而已，而是要整個系統，把社區的能量也都拉進來。至於怎麼樣能夠讓它更細緻、更到位？我們會認真來檢討、來精進。"],["陳委員秀寳：更細緻、更到位，你們會再繼續來研議，那有沒有預設大概什麼期程、什麼時候會有比較具體的作法出來？您給自己多少時間？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上現在包含學校的空間怎麼樣規劃、如何提供一個更有趣、能夠讓學生遊戲的環境，而不是學生都只抱著3C、手機等等，我們其實是更全面的規劃。所以委員是不是能給我們一段時間把它更想清楚？我想年底之前給委員一個更完整的報告說明。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，那就請你們相關的研議出來之後，提供一份報告給我的辦公室。","接下來我再請教，關於彰師輔諮爆出性騷的案件，部長，彰師大輔諮系培養了很多優秀的心理師，彰師輔諮也是中部執業心理師回訓、增能、上課的系所，所以這個事件爆發出來之後，其實很震撼輔導跟諮商界，這就像剛才本席所說的，我們對學生的權益不重視。彰師大的事件發生之後，退休的涉案教授在輔諮界是非常有重量的教師，相關的從業人員都應該上過這位教授的課，甚至讀過他的書。部長，我想說的是，事件的發生是可以引導我們往正確的方向前進，但是我們必須要及時修正。彰師輔諮培育出來的心理師，平常他們就是在做療癒、心理治療的工作，可是他自身卻遭受到這樣子不可抹滅的傷害，所以我希望教育部針對諮商圈連署發出來的要求要做出回應。他們的要求是，因為現在彰師大的事件，校方是說一個退休、一個報解聘、兩個在調查中，但是其實輔諮圈的意思是，整個事件已經都成立了，校方卻讓這個教授退休，這讓他們很不能接受，而且他們是要求要公開決議結果。所以我也希望教育部對這件事情要有所回應，而且要緊盯彰師大後續相關的處理。這個部分，教育部現在是如何來協助？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會成立專案小組，實際到彰師大去了解整個情形。因為以彰師大當時報上來的，確實，校教評會是沒有構成解聘、停聘的要件，等於說作成這樣一個決議，然後彰化縣政府針對這個情節所作成的決議是裁罰3萬塊。我想來自於整個的調查裡，當時彰師大報來教育部時，因為他沒有涉及到解聘、停聘的階段，所以教育部才本於法令回函同意他退休。但如果從這個事件來看，還有許多疑慮需要去釐清的話，教育部會進一步來了解、來積極調查。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長有表達了你們的立場跟你們的態度，但是對諮商圈連署做回應的部分，我也希望您這邊一定要督促他們所做的這個要求，包括公開決議的結果以及後續相關的處理。","最後我還要要求，這個事件的發生一定會衝擊到在校學生，所以本席希望教育部可以督促彰師大對在校學生進行相關的心理輔導，來降低學生的衝擊以及他們的焦慮，這個部分希望你們可以儘快。","主席，我再借一點時間。最後，我要關心運動部的成立，運動部將在下個月9日正式成立，我想請教部長或署長，你們認為運動部成立之後，首要目標是什麼？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，總統的體育政策是競技運動全民化，這也是我們成立全新運動部最重要的亮點主軸，所以未來在全民運動這一塊，社區運動的推廣會是我們首要的準備工作。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實大家對運動部的期待都很深，也希望運動部成立之後，可以更全面的來推動全民運動，也可以守護運動員以及更落實運動員的權益。本席要提出幾點，最近一次的運動部諮詢小組會議都有提到，應該建立教練管理、培訓的機制。在這次臺師大女足事件裡面，對於教練適任檢討的聲音，我想未來不論是誰擔任運動部部長，都應該很積極來建立相關的程序，並且要很嚴格的落實。","第二個部分，運動部有研擬國小體育班要轉型，但是本席接收到很多孩子正在體育班就讀的家長都非常憂心，也認為你們都沒有事先做好溝通。本席建議對於國小體育班轉型相關配套，應該要加強輔導以及宣導，以降低教練、家長以及學生的焦慮，這個部分我希望你們可以儘快著手。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，不好意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請大家注意"},{"start":36.06,"end":58.1,"text":"主委今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢像真正的癥結是什麼川普要的就是美國生產嘛對不對那相對之下我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重"},{"start":59.653,"end":75.82,"text":"他不只課這個關稅100%喔他有個計畫嘛 對不對他說你如果要我美國投資 對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都偷走了"},{"start":77.368,"end":105.817,"text":"那這樣會不會導致 會不會導致台灣的半導體 現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔 上中下游在這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況嗎很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔 我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產"},{"start":107.037,"end":134.632,"text":"那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看"},{"start":135.492,"end":154.365,"text":"這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球佈局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球佈局兩種他如果把台灣關掉"},{"start":159.128,"end":176.821,"text":"過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉"},{"start":178.603,"end":195.397,"text":"這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對"},{"start":196.918,"end":221.903,"text":"所以它一定是有訂單它才會往前移動那第二個事情是它在資金的佈局上面很明顯它在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯它的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者它的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔"},{"start":222.803,"end":237.951,"text":"因為你是個企業你現在一定要想嘛我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要到在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的這個外移我們知道事實"},{"start":239.131,"end":255.636,"text":"這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有買家如果沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了"},{"start":256.056,"end":265.728,"text":"那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置才能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了你應該比我了解我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦"},{"start":273.958,"end":299.378,"text":"開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量"},{"start":300.517,"end":321.695,"text":"你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大"},{"start":322.805,"end":351.529,"text":"兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650元1650元是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?"},{"start":353.048,"end":378.654,"text":"內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650"},{"start":381.447,"end":409.427,"text":"我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有所有的企業都是照這個走那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的投資"},{"start":410.188,"end":436.121,"text":"投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣來來來你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來"},{"start":437.482,"end":459.39,"text":"現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?所以要問公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%"},{"start":461.656,"end":489.781,"text":"表示51%還是英特爾主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救英特爾嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到英特爾就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長多智慧講說去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上了好多媒體"},{"start":490.501,"end":510.538,"text":"有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時"},{"start":512.725,"end":526.39,"text":"我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到"},{"start":529.551,"end":546.021,"text":"中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一"},{"start":554.265,"end":583.516,"text":"減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來要這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊"},{"start":585.981,"end":610.482,"text":"這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自由貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒進來"},{"start":611.957,"end":636.17,"text":"沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOQUA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢喔從大陸賺的錢喔而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對"},{"start":637.386,"end":659.904,"text":"那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻影響他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備,做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人們要看你是要突破嘛"},{"start":660.484,"end":681.89,"text":"我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦"},{"start":682.59,"end":706.802,"text":"現在當然不能欺負啦 重點是自己要自立自強 你自己這條路要趕快去開出來先是審計部的決算報告喔這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個 你要回答審計部喔後來 最後問一個很重要的題這幾天 光電板 山也光電板 海也光電板 製縫池也光電板 農地也是光電板"},{"start":708.254,"end":735.274,"text":"引起了全民的抗議 現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了 甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深 我來看一下審計部怎麼講新潔部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的 你本來訂一個目標嘛 對不對訂一個目標嘛 結果審計部現在審理出來的"},{"start":737.349,"end":744.1,"text":"跳票一再再跳票特別是在魚電工生這一塊魚電工生就是下面養魚上面有光電板"},{"start":746.384,"end":771.313,"text":"你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少您提到這個漁電工生我們現在在我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是"},{"start":772.713,"end":792.037,"text":"養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年"},{"start":800.879,"end":828.558,"text":"得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色主委我現在跟你講的是那我們逐步希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民"},{"start":831.079,"end":851.079,"text":"一個是不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了"},{"start":852.66,"end":873.174,"text":"電才來 甚至是 於此的電嚴重的缺乏少了非常多現在兩個目標 第一個你看喔 這些都是你訂的目標喔113年跟115年你訂的目標的達成率啊不到一半 到了115年 這個是省紀部最新的結算報告大家看一下 達成率只有多少"},{"start":874.195,"end":896.298,"text":"你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%欸你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一欸連七成都不到欸所以主委檢討兩個事情 主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會還是中間出了什麼問題"},{"start":897.932,"end":912.047,"text":"你大概一個月好不好一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省然後講你 你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉就說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了然後打成立查這些因為是訂的目標不是我們訂的"},{"start":913.71,"end":929.728,"text":"這是漁業署定的目標啦那我們來溝通吧漁業署容易不提上去嘛那我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成"},{"start":931.149,"end":944.554,"text":"不到三成這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你我找他們給你一個報告我們一起弄一下那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了"},{"start":945.886,"end":959.757,"text":"違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請"},{"start":973.646,"end":974.868,"text":"我們謝一鳳召委來質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時27分）多謝主席，請主委。"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：請主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，今天臺灣時間的凌晨4點，川普公布要對我們的晶片跟半導體課稅100%，我剛剛看了你的答詢，這個真正的癥結是什麼？川普要的就是美國生產嘛，對不對？相對之下，我們現在要解決的問題是不是因為它課了這麼高的關稅，我們的半導體會不會外移就非常嚴重。它不只是課這個關稅100%，它還有一個計畫，對不對？說是如果到美國投資，或是你有投資計畫，那就是0嘛！這個現在在拔河，美國川普都出招了，他也跟你講得那麼清楚，我要你的半導體，他之前是說你把我的晶片都偷走了，這樣會不會導致臺灣的半導體上、中、下游整組被搬過去，而不是只有台積電過去？像這段時間你應該知道那整個狀況吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我報告……"],["張委員啓楷：相關的業者都過去了嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["張委員啓楷：會不會因為今天的這個100%，導致我們半導體的產業更加速外移到美國去？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這應該不是外移，我們過去外移的情形是，很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到別的地方去生產，現在這個不是外移而是全球布局，就是它的根在臺灣。我們以建設來看，現在台積電一廠做完在蓋二廠，但是台積電現在在高雄、嘉義這些地方都在建廠，包括臺中也要再建新廠，其實台積電在臺灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資。","像您是專家就很清楚，在3個廠區的時候大家就在看，這大概可以占台積電多少產能，那個時候大家估計都在百分之六點多，事實上以台積電外銷美國來看，現在是在1%上下，其實都沒有那麼多，它不是外移，是全球布局的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：主委講的喔！你認為「外移」這個詞可以變成是全球布局……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是兩種，它如果把臺灣的關掉……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有完全衝突，不過，主委……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它如果把臺灣的關掉過去就是外移，就跟移民一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有關掉是個問號，但是這個是重要的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是台積電所有的先進製程都在臺灣。"],["張委員啓楷：投資金額是有限的，對不對？就是有排擠，例如它本來要在臺灣投資1,000億，後來因為美國這個高關稅，只好有一半到那邊去，所以在臺灣的投資當然就減少了，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個您是專家，一定更清楚，每個企業在進行投資的時候，一定會看到它手上的資金流量，還有看它的布局，您對企業比較了解，一定很清楚，沒有一個企業會花1,000億去蓋一個廠擺在那裡，卻沒有人買，對不對？所以它一定是有訂單，才會往前移動。","第二個事情是它在資金的布局上面很明顯，它在臺灣在建廠非常多，遠比在美國多很多，那就很明顯，它的資金投資在這邊，台積電的資金流量一定是控制得非常嚴謹的。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委，我們用兩個非常具體的指標，第一個、有沒有本來要在臺灣的投資或者產能現在要到美國去？這是馬上看得到的，因為它是一個企業，現在一定要想，要在臺灣生產，還是要在美國生產，在臺灣可能要100%，在美國是0%，這個我們就不用爭辯，未來很快就可以看得到，有沒有影響到臺灣的投資，或者某些產業的外移，我們照事實……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，其實這有一個證明點，就是美國的產能有沒有人包下來，在美國做的有沒有買家，如果沒有的話，就會吻合你剛才講的，但是如果有，那就是另外一個看法了，我現在的了解是它是確定要有訂單，才會生產，目前是這樣的狀況，所以它不會有空置產能……"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委，我有兩個非常具體的要求，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了……"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對，針對我們剛剛的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個你應該比我了解。"],["張委員啓楷：就我們剛剛的討論，我要求兩個東西，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：就是你要開始去推估，經過這個100%的衝擊之後，不管是外移或者是全球布局，我要兩個東西，第一個、在投資臺灣的金額有沒有減少？或者有哪些家數到美國去投資，影響到臺灣？把這兩個做個整理，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，這個我們……"],["張委員啓楷：金額及投資的家數……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是可能要……"],["張委員啓楷：這個都很明顯，很快就看得到了，好不好？你們做個統計。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個要訪談，我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商，因為這個有滿大的量。"],["張委員啓楷：對，你先訪談幾個比較有代表性的。好，再來，我們講更具體的，你是台積電的公股董事……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["張委員啓楷：台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰，一個是投資金額，川普一直在加碼，今天最新的，他講的不是3,000億，是2,000億，當然也有可能再跳回去3,000億，不過，這個金額都很大，2,000億是增加多少？目前是1,650億……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：1,650億是台積電發言人很確定回應的數字。"],["張委員啓楷：如果照川普講的，至少要增加350億美金，350億美金是多少？1兆耶！中央政府總預算的三分之一耶！這筆錢是本來要投資在臺灣的，會不會到美國去？這個是一個考量點，對不對？你是公股董事，據你的了解，現在到美國投資的到底是多少，你們內部有沒有評估過？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前投資就是1,650億，沒有錯，那是在我們……"],["張委員啓楷：川普現在是在喊價嗎？還是已經有很具體跟你們要求？還沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主，你也知道，董事大概就沒辦法講太多，但是就我的了解，目前還是在1,650億。"],["張委員啓楷：站在公股董事的立場，代表國家去，你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎？還是留在1,650億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的看法是看生意、訂單有沒有，所有的企業都是照這個走……"],["張委員啓楷：有訂單，可以賺到錢，就去了，要加。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個是我們看下來，在高雄6個廠的計畫沒有變、嘉義廠的計畫沒有變，尤其是嘉義的投資，你應該知道不只2個廠，對不對？再加上臺南……"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對，我很關心，所以嘉義和高雄，在國內的投資不能減少、不能變。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：和臺中，而且您可以看到，目前最先進的都在臺灣，所以它不會改變。那我們現在最要守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委，所以我們跟全民承諾，在對美國加大投資的同時，臺灣一定要顧到，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛講的這些廠、8個廠……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們要顧到的就是……"],["張委員啓楷：投資不能少，只能增加。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：最新的技術一定在臺灣……"],["張委員啓楷：好，你剛剛講新的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：臺灣的產能……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在講的就是我要講的第二個危機，就是核心技術。現在川普和美國要求的是什麼？不是只有增加金額，他要求我們要入股Intel，對不對？要去買多少？49%，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這個是新聞……"],["張委員啓楷：所以要問公股董事，問台積電的公股董事，你們內部有沒有討論過，如果要對Intel做這麼大的投資，49%，49%表示有51%還是Intel主導……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個、為什麼要去？美國為什麼要做這個要求？要去救Intel，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，跟你報告一下，上次我就有回應到Intel，結果就造成美國的股價下滑了，所以我想我們可以私下聊聊，但是我不建議我們在檯面上談。"],["張委員啓楷：不公開討論，我們不用像經濟部長郭智輝講去入股救他們是不可能的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：雖然上次沒有影響到臺灣，但是影響到美國股價，上了好多媒體……"],["張委員啓楷：有內部評估，可是我們還不公開……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以……"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們私底下再來問。","我接下來問兩個很重要的事情，這個都是你主管的重要事情。我們現在面臨的是美國關稅一直在拉高，主委，可是你有沒有發現，在民進黨政府抗中保臺的同時，我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑。我給你看，這個是審計部及很多單位的統計，最近這5年度（民國109年度到113年度）我國出口到中國大陸早收產品的出口值介於149億美元到252億美元，最近這兩年（民國111年度到113年度）都呈現負成長，少了多少？一個是減了18.76%，一個是減了23%，我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一。","現在更恐怖的是什麼？我們本來這筆錢就從美國去賺，我們去年從美國賺了739億，對不對？可是現在危機來了，因為高關稅衝擊，川普的意思就是我們賺了他們的錢，他們要拿回去，所以美國那邊會不會減少？這是一個危機。更重要的，現在國家要做的，我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些區域經濟協定，對不對？我們看一下，這個是審計部最新的決算報告，國發會應該有接到，它說政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿關係的拓展，要去爭取出口產業對外貿易立足點的平等，你看人家國與國之間很多都是零關稅、自由貿易，對不對？我們要洽簽加入區域經濟整合協定已經十幾年了，現在已經提出申請的包括CPTPP，超過2年，可是到現在還沒有加入，有沒有發現？所以現在從大陸ECFA賺的少了那麼多錢，從大陸賺的錢一年少了四分之一，而且在抗中保臺之下，越來越少；從美國賺的錢，現在川普出手，可能會降下來；現在我們要跟東協、跟其他國家申請加入國際的、關貿的協定，到現在都進不去啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為中國的反對，我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對，如果中國不反對，我認為我們的機會都很大。"],["張委員啓楷：中國一定反對嘛！中國對臺灣的打壓是無時無刻都在，所以我們要突破，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：您講對了，它一直在打壓我們，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，對，面對別人的打壓，我們要突破嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們自己也要做好準備、做好防衛。"],["張委員啓楷：對，主委，所以做什麼準備？而且要突破，人民也是要看我們突破。我剛剛講的這三個點都很重要，對不對？從中國大陸賺的，在抗中保臺之下，收入減少了，從美國賺的，看起來本來是高的，可是可能會往下掉，因為川普出手了，接下來對於經濟貿易這一塊，我們要加入的國際組織現在都是停擺的，所以是不是這一塊要趕快再去突破，要多加強？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會繼續努力，而且我們不會向打壓我們的人屈服。"],["張委員啓楷：對，當然不能屈服，重點是自己要自立自強，我們自己的這條路要趕快去開出來……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們一定會努力。"],["張委員啓楷：現在是審計部的決算報告要求國發會也要做改正的，你要面對這個，你要回答審計部。","再來，我問一個很重要的題，這幾天山也光電板、海也光電板、滯洪池也光電板、農地也是光電板，引起全民的抗議，現在光電板「淹跤目」了，而且這次颱風一來，破損的、壞掉的堆置，甚至有些都已經堆到農地上面去了，民怨非常的深。我們來看一下審計部怎麼講，審計部最近提了一個報告，說政府的太陽能光電，這也是你管的，你們本來訂了一個目標，對不對？審計部現在整理出來，結果是一再跳票，特別是在漁電共生這一塊，漁電共生就是下面養魚，上面有光電板，主委，你知道嗎？你們訂的目標到現在達成率是多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：您提到漁電共生，我們也看到這次在嘉義有廠商是放在它的儲存櫃跟屋頂上的一個新模式，這個新的模式讓它度過了五天斷電的時間。臺南也有廠商，就是養魚業者自己做新型漁電共生，他們覺得效果很好，所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣，即養魚業者覺得比較好的模式，我們希望推廣給業者，達到合作。另外，我們也在協調農業部，過去漁電共生必須要養魚的部分，可以讓農業青年得到免費的魚塭來養魚，達到三贏的角色，我們希望逐步來改善。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我現在跟你講的是經過……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至於防颱的強化，我們也會找經濟部來協商，看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分強化。再來，現在所有的光電要設置一定要經過溝通才能送案，針對溝通的部分，我們現在也做了比較大的改善，就是我們會分兩個區，一個區是在地居民，另一個不是在地居民，這樣的話，可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼，這些都做過才能來申請。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我們要一起努力。不過現在有兩個最大的問題，這個都是國發會，也是我們國家訂下的目標，第一個是漁電共生的發電量，第二個就是不能夠漁電共生，結果魚死了，電才來，甚至是魚死了，電嚴重的缺乏，少了非常多！現在有兩個目標：第一個、你看這都是你們訂的目標，113年跟115年你們訂的目標達成率不到一半。到了115年，這是審計部最新的決算報告，大家看一下，達成率只有多少？你本來115年底要達成的是4,428MW，到目前為止，只達成了22.52%，你訂的標準只達成了大概五分之一、連七成都不到，所以請主委檢討兩件事，你的目標是不是訂得太過好高騖遠，還是中間出了什麼問題？大概一個月，好不好？給你一個月檢討一下，為什麼達成率這麼低？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：老實講，你也是要回應審計部，審計部對於你的目標，我不要說是打臉，但落差真的太大了。當初怎麼會訂了，然後達成率差這麼多？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是漁業署訂的目標，我們來溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：你們經管，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們來溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：農業部漁業署提上去，然後你們訂了這個目標。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒關係，我們溝通，給委員一個說明，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：政府、國發會訂這個目標，漁業署訂這個目標，達成率竟然不到七成、發電量不到三成，這是多嚴重的一件事情。第二個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我找他們給你一個報告，我們也……"],["張委員啓楷：把它列為報告好好檢討，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：一個月內給我一份報告。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：反正這個你也要回給審計部。另外，很多魚都死掉了，違反了漁電共生的原則，這也是非常嚴重的，我問過農業部長，審計部這次也講有七成都沒有達成魚的養殖，也併同一個月內檢討，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請謝衣鳯召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝召委 我們有請部長請部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":18.394,"end":34.409,"text":"好 部長我首先想先問你一句話因為剛才我看到你在答詢的時候特別提到那個葉秉成次長所涉的事件的時候我看你整個情緒變得非常的激動那甚至好像還要一度哽咽你說這也是我心中的痛是什麼樣的痛 可以陳述一下嗎"},{"start":40.336,"end":50.788,"text":"我想這個案子在調查過程因為他確實我們在依法尊重這個調查那當然各方的權益怎麼去維護從我一個學教育的一個這一個"},{"start":54.482,"end":69.395,"text":"背景出生我當然非常在意學生的一個受教權學生的權益應該被維護當然也期待也期待大學端一定要對學生的所有的權益上的一個受損能夠能夠可以"},{"start":72.018,"end":94.752,"text":"協助能夠給予支持或者給予看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善但是我也必須要講我們是一個民主法治的國家我們很多時候我們是依照法令法治來行使來做許多的行政的一些這個改善或者處理或者調查但是我也看到"},{"start":95.774,"end":123.732,"text":"社會大眾對這個案子事實上當然他們有殷切的期待部長重點是簡短好嗎我重點的講法就是說因為我們太多不了解整個事件的一個過程然後造成了很多社會的不必要的一些一些緊張或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入我覺得這一個部分我其實是讓我造成一個非常難過的一件事情謝謝"},{"start":124.713,"end":139.14,"text":"部長雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點不過聽起來好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見但是不論如何我們尊重調查但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是我認為"},{"start":141.881,"end":163.437,"text":"調查當然要仔細、要詳實但是速度也不可以拖我覺得這個拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害這邊提一下回到今天我正式的質詢的議題我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒其實這兩個都存在那本席其實在四月份的時候我就已經針對了我們現在國內面臨教師荒的問題我跟部長提出了質詢"},{"start":167.72,"end":170.383,"text":"那但是幾個月過去了我們看到了這個問題不但沒有解決看起來還更加嚴重連本席選區內的某一個國中公告了三輪要甄選不管國文數學地理等等相關的科目這個叫做沒有人來報名無人報名"},{"start":184.679,"end":192.525,"text":"學校真的是非常的焦慮但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題我相信部長應該知道這個狀況因為新聞也爆得沸沸揚揚那我們來看幾個數字因為剛才部長在做報告的時候你有提到說現在我們的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的一個趨勢但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處所以根據我們教育部自己的統計我們從83年到112年"},{"start":213.281,"end":237.377,"text":"總共是有22萬6194人 領有教師的資格證但是我們實際任教率多少 只有66.99%大概有三分之一超過7萬人 並沒有正式進入教職所以我們就一直在講 過去說失陪失陪我們要花很多的資源 精神 力氣 來去做教師的培育跟培養但是呢"},{"start":237.677,"end":264.368,"text":"陪兒無法用這件事情我想這是非常嚴重的一種浪費所以我們一直要來討論那到底為什麼教師慌為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到那本席知道啦當然部長也有提到我們共同知道的因素包括少子化啦包括各縣市的資源啦經費啦等等啦還有教育現場的尊重啦困擾啦這些問題部長你都知道嗎你只要回答我你都知道嗎"},{"start":267.009,"end":284.104,"text":"都知道嘛而且你知道一定很長一段時間了嘛包括站在你身後的署長他更知道嘛那你想想看喔這些問題我們都知道但為什麼久久的不能解決我們應該要去看一下不能解決的原因在哪裡啊因為我們已經把問題都找出來了可是針對問題我們束手無策"},{"start":286.406,"end":312.606,"text":"是發生什麼事了呢 對不對好 您剛又說到說我們現在有針對各縣市啊如果釋出了正式圓額圈我們納入獎補助啊等等的有 教育部有在做我們想辦法在做 可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決嘛那這個影響是影響什麼影響我們花這麼多的精力 經費培養出來的教師這麼專業 卻沒有辦法進入到教職我們影響的是代理 代課教師因為各項的保障跟我們教學的環境不夠好"},{"start":313.627,"end":333.204,"text":"他縱使他可以教堂他不願意留在這個地方最後影響的是什麼影響就是孩子的受教權所以今天我們在這裡提這樣的問題重新再提出來那包括剛剛我們所講的各縣市可能在預算上面有限經費這個不足那或者是說教育現場的環境沒有被改善所以呢教師荒"},{"start":334.085,"end":363.016,"text":"那教師換完以後呢我們要用代理教師可是代理教師呢即便過去這幾年當中啊其實本席一直在提說我們代理教師啊不管他的薪資要更合理化我們的聘期要整年度啊包括本席的這個桃園市我們也是其實縣市第一個第一個做到我們的這個全年制聘期的那現在當然我們全國都這樣做可是看起來還是不夠的所以呢部長你簡單的回答一下問題都知道了我們也想解決但是一直未果"},{"start":363.556,"end":386.543,"text":"這件事情怎麼處理我想跟委員報告感謝委員關心這個交易因為以我們今年所開的全國所開的區來看我們國中就是真的沒有招滿115個就佔6%也就是說100個裡面有6%部長不好意思我把您打斷一下數字上面我們"},{"start":386.903,"end":405.397,"text":"不要在這裡再討論了因為數字你有我也有少數的學校裡邊我想我們都跟地方縣市教育局處裡邊都有保持這個密切的一個溝通聯繫然後怎麼樣剛才署長也特別提到周周都會有跟這個地方政府能夠維持聯繫部長不好意思我想我繼續"},{"start":406.918,"end":423.109,"text":"我知道您等一下還要再繼續提出來就是說我們教育部做了很多但今天我們要面對的是說我們很關心我們也很協助教育部也很認真同仁大家都很努力但這個問題沒有辦法解決這是一個事實所以我想幾個點我今天只簡單的提幾個點因為這個問題很複雜第一個我覺得在校園裡面行政減量這件事情要做到"},{"start":430.354,"end":454.246,"text":"行政減量的工作第二個未來教師的待遇這個部分我們要看看怎麼樣去把它提升第三個部分呢就是在教育現場上面現在我們老師有的時候真的會很灰心有時候會覺得不如規矩怎麼樣給他們尊重怎麼樣在他們跟親師溝通之間我們給予協助這三件事情我想會後兩周給我一個報告好不好"},{"start":455.026,"end":469.1,"text":"可以嗎謝謝委員我想這些都是非常好的建議也是我們在努力那我們就是這個兩周給我一個報告那接下來我想一樣是部長但是我也請一下我們台師大的校長好不好"},{"start":473.567,"end":494.597,"text":"是我們的吳校長不好意思要麻煩你先準備一下我們還是提到這一次其實我們剛剛很多委員都有提到我們這次台師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子我想震驚各界"},{"start":498.479,"end":520.968,"text":"台十一大女足這個案子其實嚴格算起來還沒有落幕我們其實又發生了這個台北海洋科技大學這個特教上面又有這個涉嫌把台積電的這個公讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具那甚至於好像有這個要把這個公讀費回捐等等的事項其實我不禁在想"},{"start":521.508,"end":542.791,"text":"到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了那麼這一些些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內教育部可能不能用大學自治就認為說這個責任教育部都沒有那我相信部長在這件事情發生之後應該不會這樣想可是我們看到教育部除了在過去"},{"start":543.592,"end":561.1,"text":"一直尊重大學自治之外那很多事情發生以後事後的調查懲處啊可是呢我覺得藉由這個事件我們應該來思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色以今天來說很多細節我不再談因為媒體報導過很多今天我們委員也講了很多了但是呢我們看到剛剛國科會也有提到嘛"},{"start":565.822,"end":571.525,"text":"不過會發生這件事情一知道以後他也很積極趕快下去查查出來以後發現確定違法而且事件嚴重教育部後來下去了解以後也發現這個事件也非常嚴重我們都說它嚴重可是 欸 怪了咧我們整個相關的計畫是有審查的機制的是有審核機制的但為何"},{"start":586.974,"end":611.173,"text":"审核的时候是一套样本执行的时候又是一套样本而我们只能审核计划的出席给予补助但是执行的过程之中我们没有一个监督的机制然后发生事情之后我觉得在这件事情的处理上面其实是有一点荒腔走板了部长我想你一样简单台师大这个事件你觉得严不严重"},{"start":612.264,"end":614.527,"text":"當然嚴重好 當然嚴重那我們來看到既然是當然嚴重那為何以這個台師大兩次我們兩次這個教評會的決議落差會這麼大這都在調查嘛那剛才那個也有委員在問"},{"start":628.867,"end":642.253,"text":"前前後後也調查了半年那何以我們在這個台師大霸凌防治委員會的建議是予以解聘兩年內不得聘任可是呢不到這個幾個月的時間兩個月的時間我們的教評會的決議跟第二次的教評會決議針對部長口中以及國科會調查的口中這麼嚴重的案件但是呢我們決議的懲處卻是天壤之別"},{"start":653.098,"end":680.618,"text":"这是一个非常严重的一个问题那不晓得这个我想这一题我询问一下台师大的校长吴校长好不好吴校长我想先请教您一下您身为台师大的校长我们台师大其实又是培育我们教育人才最高的殿堂发生了这样子全国震惊跟瞩目的案件一路以来半年的时间过去了您现在的心情是怎么样"},{"start":682.246,"end":691.013,"text":"我現在心情非常非常的沉重那也覺得我們對我們學生的照顧我們沒有照顧好"},{"start":692.745,"end":718.99,"text":"絕對對學生的照顧沒有照顧好那你對於這個就是我們學校在做這一些研究案的這個監督過程還有學生這樣的受害還有家長的感受跟整個教育上你還有沒有什麼話要說我想在這件事情一個很重要的一個基本根源是我們教練跟球員這個權力結構的不對等"},{"start":722.043,"end":744.909,"text":"以至於很多的事情我想球員沒有直接反映到學校來如果反映到學校來我想我們一定會好好的處理但是因為這個整個潛力結構的關係所以事後我們也檢討我們在這個溝通的管道一定要再加強我們在協務處也成立一個單一的管道"},{"start":745.569,"end":766.143,"text":"校長我對您這樣的心情上面我能理解但我對您的說法其實我不太能接受如果你只是把它列為是這個教練跟學員之間的權利不對等甚至有一點暗指說一直以來都是這樣或者是有一些漏息等等而把它訴諸在是說過程當中學生沒有來反應所以你要加強溝通我覺得太輕忽這個案子了"},{"start":773.328,"end":788.311,"text":"我們要知道這個案子從我們申請計畫開始起有層層把關的審核那學校難道沒有任何的監督的這個責任在裡面嗎一點都沒有嗎有有有當然有嘛所以你不是只是片面等待"},{"start":788.812,"end":808.361,"text":"學生來跟你說我剛才講說這個原因之一原因之二我想我們老師們在做研究的研究倫理的素養研究倫理的教育這個我們一定要再加強那當然我們倫理審查機制也有很多的地方我想我們要再進一步的做改善"},{"start":809.535,"end":838.266,"text":"那一個很重要當然就是說我們在查核上我們要更加的加強在這個研究好 那校長我想也直接請教您這也是我剛剛請教部長的那部長當然等一下要補充回答也可以何以這麼嚴重的案子我們現在發現它的這個結果是這麼嚴重那我們在六月的這個教評會的決議跟這個七月份這個教評會的決議何以落差如此之大"},{"start":840.244,"end":863.233,"text":"因為我本身不是教評委員會的委員主席是我們副校長所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大因為裡面討論的情形我也不在裡面有不同的一些看法"},{"start":865.454,"end":882.42,"text":"我們在7月25日解聘四年不得聘任裡面他提到是說他們委員有在看了一些錄影帶聽了一些證據難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎"},{"start":884.02,"end":899.145,"text":"這是有新的證據嗎 據本席了解沒有新的證據啊這個是他們在7月25號他們指出來的那之前好 那您可以先休息一下那部長 據你了解為什麼兩次這個落差如此之大"},{"start":901.584,"end":929.053,"text":"我想我不排斥校內裡邊對周老師長期的一些貢獻當然這但是民主法治的社會你既然身為一個教評委的委員你應該要就事論事就證據來給予這一個對老師的苛責我想台師大當時的霸凌委員會裡邊調查出兩年的這個解聘兩年不能這一個從事教職"},{"start":929.973,"end":944.404,"text":"這一個我相信學生原來對這一個是接受的但是到校教評會裡邊似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處看起來部長您講的這個是大家都知道的過程了啦"},{"start":944.824,"end":948.127,"text":"好 我來講一下我想我們相關的計畫包括我們國科會其實它是會去審查每一個學校每一個單位所提出來的計畫然後這個合撥的補助但是學校在執行上面我想每一個學校都一樣應該有監督的角色而不是放任這個計畫自行進行"},{"start":966.641,"end":994.344,"text":"那教育部呢教育部扮演的角色在這個案子當中我是沒有看到不過我們看到亡羊補牢教育部在報告當中說你跟國科會衛福部體育署都會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的一個機制出來嘛對不對那其實部長我要跟你提啊你現在成立一個跨部會的這個抽查機制事實上你就有審查機制了嘛也有監督機制所以呢空有機制不去做那是沒有用的我們只是在這邊說的多但做的少"},{"start":995.905,"end":1009.502,"text":"这一点不是在斥责或是怒骂任何人而是我们检讨的问题就发现奇怪我们怎么就是机制都有但我们都没做所以我想请教你一下你这个联合抽查机制这个机制你现在跨部会成立起来了吗"},{"start":1010.612,"end":1030.768,"text":"成立了成立了那你有沒有預計一年當中定期不定期怎麼樣去一個抽查我想我們現在跨部會主要就針對這個事件裡面有現有的許多的規範審查希望能夠有改善的空間當然包含這個事件的本身還有哪些我們沒有擬親的一些的責任因為"},{"start":1031.648,"end":1035.932,"text":"PIE這個陳教授跟COPIE周老師還有其他的一些計畫我們希望能夠全盤的釐清那當然也感謝委員提醒我們因為這個事件確實我必須要承認過去在大學裡面當然它有來自於IRB的審查在事前的審查那校內比較少"},{"start":1054.83,"end":1066.855,"text":"因為過去人類經驗控比較是從行政財務上去做檢視比較少針對老師的研究裡面去做這一個不定期的一個偷測部長來 因為我的時間也到了我想我最後一句話去叮您這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓是"},{"start":1073.317,"end":1102.658,"text":"那我們不希望看到這麼痛的教訓之後我們再有類似的事情發生那就是完全完全不可原諒了所以呢就有這一次那你不管是之後在事前的審查市中間的這個這個這個督查然後監督以及你現在事後你要所有要做的事情我覺得落實這件事很重要那我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號還是各唱各的調那該定期開會的該定期稽查的我們一定要落實做到可以嗎"},{"start":1103.058,"end":1106.469,"text":"是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時10分）謝謝召委，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：好。部長，我首先想先問你一句話，因為剛才我看你在答詢的時候，特別提到葉丙成次長所涉的事件的時候，我看你整個情緒變得非常地激動，甚至於好像還一度哽咽，你說：這也是我心中的痛。是什麼樣的痛？可以陳述一下嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這一個案子在調查過程，我們當然依法尊重調查，至於各方的權益怎麼去維護？從我是學教育的背景出身，我當然非常在意學生的受教權，學生的權益應該被維護，也期待大學端一定要對學生所有權益上的受損能夠給以協助、能夠給予支持或者看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善。但是我也必須要講，我們是一個民主法治的國家，很多的時候，我們是依照法令、法制來行使，來做許多的行政改善、處理或者調查，但是我也看到社會大眾對這個案子，當然他們有殷切的期待……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，重點是什麼？簡短好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我的重點就是因為我們太多不了解整個事件的過程，然後造成了很多社會不必要的緊張，或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入，我覺得這一個部分，其實是讓我非常難過的一件事情。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝部長，雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點，不過聽起來，好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解，聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見，但是不論如何，我們尊重調查。但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是，我認為調查當然要仔細、要詳實，但是速度也不可以拖，我覺得拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害，這邊提一下。","回到今天我正式質詢的議題，我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒，其實這兩個都存在，本席其實在4月份的時候，我就已經針對現在我們國內面臨教師荒的問題，我跟部長提出了質詢，但是幾個月過去了，我們看到這個問題不但沒有解決，看起來還更加嚴重，連本席選區內的某一個國中，公告了三輪要甄選，不管國文、數學、地理等等，相關的科目，這個叫做沒有人來報名、無人報名，學校真的是非常的焦慮，但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題，我相信部長應該知道這個狀況，因為新聞也報得沸沸揚揚。我們來看幾個數字，因為剛才部長在報告的時候，你有提到現在的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的趨勢，但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處。所以根據教育部自己的統計，我們從86年到112年，總共是有22萬6,194人領有教師資格證，但是實際任教率多少？只有66.99%，大概有三分之一、超過7萬人並沒有正式進入教職。所以我們就一直在講，過去說師培、師培，我們要花很多的資源、精神、力氣去做教師的培育跟培養，但是我想培而無法用這件事情是非常嚴重的一種浪費，所以我們一直要討論到底為什麼教師荒、為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到？本席知道，當然部長也有提到，我們共同知道的這個因素，包括少子化，包括各縣市的資源、經費等等，還有教育現場的尊重、困擾，這些問題，部長你都知道嗎？你只要回答我，你都知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：知道。"],["萬委員美玲：都知道嘛！而且你也一定知道很長一段時間了，包括站在你身後的署長，他更知道。那你想想看，這些問題我們都知道，但為什麼久久不能解決？我們應該探討一下，不能解決的原因在哪裡？因為我們已經把問題都找出來了，可是針對問題卻束手無策，是發生什麼事了呢？對不對？你剛剛又說現在針對各縣市，如果有釋出正式員額缺，我們會納入獎補助等等。有！教育部有在做，你們有想辦法在做，可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決問題，那這個的影響是什麼？影響的是我們花這麼多的精力、經費培養出來這麼專業的教師，卻沒有辦法進入到教職；影響的是代理、代課教師，因為各項保障跟教學環境不夠好，縱使他可以教得很好，也不願意留在這個地方；最後影響的是什麼？影響的是孩子的受教權。所以今天在這裡我們重新再提出這樣的問題，包括剛剛我們講的，各縣市可能預算有限、經費不足，或者教育現場的環境沒有被改善，所以造成教師荒；教師荒以後，我們用代理教師因應，可是代理教師的部分，即便過去這幾年中，本席一直提出改善代理教師制度，不管是薪資更合理化，聘期要整年度，包括本席的桃園市也是第一個做到全年制聘期的縣市，當然現在全國都這樣做，可是看起來還是不夠。所以請部長簡單回答一下，現在問題都知道了，我們也想解決，但是一直未果，這件事情要怎麼處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心教育問題，以今年全國所開的缺來看，國中是真的沒有招滿125個，比率是6%，也就是說，100個裡面有6個，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，不好意思，我打斷一下，就數字部分，我們不要在這裡再討論，數字你有我也有……"],["鄭部長英耀：少數的學校，我們跟地方縣市教育局處都有保持密切的溝通、聯繫，剛才署長也特別提到，週週都會跟地方政府維持聯繫……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，不好意思，我想我繼續請教，我知道你等一下還會繼續再說明教育部事實上做了很多，但今天我們要面對的是，我們很關心、很協助，教育部也很認真，同仁大家都很努力，但問題沒有辦法解決是一個事實。這個問題很複雜，我今天就簡單提出幾點建議：第一點，校園裡行政減量的這件事情要做到。第二點，未來要如何提升教師的待遇。第三個，現在的教育現場，有時候老師會覺得很灰心、不如歸去，要如何給予他們尊重、如何在親師溝通之間給予協助？這三件事情在會後、兩週內給我一個報告，好不好？書面就好，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，我想這些都是非常好的建議，也是我們在努力的。"],["萬委員美玲：那就兩週內給我一個報告。","接下來一樣想請教部長，但也請一下臺師大的吳校長。不好意思，要麻煩吳校長先準備一下。其實剛剛很多委員也有提到，就是臺師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子，震驚各界，臺師大女足這個案子嚴格算起來其實還沒有落幕，接著又發生了臺北海洋科技大學在特教部分涉嫌把台積電工讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具，甚至好像有要把工讀費回捐等等的事項，我不禁在想，到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了？到底發生什麼事了？這一些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內，教育部可能不能用大學自治為藉口，認為教育部都沒有責任，我相信部長在這件事情發生之後，應該也不會這樣想，可是我們看到教育部過去除了一直表示尊重大學自治之外，很多事後的調查、懲處，教育部扮演了什麼角色？我覺得藉由這次事件，我們應該思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色？很多細節我就不再談，因為媒體報導過很多，今天我們委員也講了很多，而國科會剛剛也有提到，國科會在知道這個事情之後，很積極的下去查，查出來以後發現確定違法，而且事態嚴重；教育部後來下去了解，也發現這個事件非常嚴重，大家都知道它很嚴重，可是很奇怪，整個相關計畫是有審查機制的，為何審核時是一套樣本，執行時又是一套樣本？而且你們只能在審核計畫的初期給予補助，在執行的過程中，卻沒有任何監督機制，然後事情發生之後，哇！我覺得在這件事情的處理上，其實是有一點荒腔走板。部長，請你一樣簡答，臺師大的這個事件，你覺得嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然嚴重。"],["萬委員美玲：好，當然嚴重，既然當然嚴重，為何臺師大兩次教評會的決議落差會這麼大？一樣都是調查，剛才也有委員詢問，前前後後調查了半年，何以臺師大霸凌防制委員會的建議是予以解聘、兩年內不得聘任，可是不到兩個月的時間，教評會的決議跟第二次教評會決議，針對部長口中及國科會調查所說的這麼嚴重的案件，決議的懲處卻是天壤之別？這是一個非常嚴重的問題。","這一題我詢問一下臺師大吳校長。吳校長，先請教你，身為臺師大校長，臺師大又是培育教育人才最高的殿堂，發生了這樣一個全國震驚跟矚目的案件，一路以來，半年時間過去了，你現在的心情怎麼樣？"],["吳校長正己：我現在的心情非常非常沉重，也覺得對我們學生的照顧是沒有照顧好。"],["萬委員美玲：覺得對學生的照顧沒有照顧好？"],["吳校長正己：是。"],["萬委員美玲：對於學校在做這一些研究案的監督過程，還有學生的受害、家長的感受，以及在整個教育上，你還有沒有什麼話要說？"],["吳校長正己：我想這件事情一個很重要的基本根源是教練跟球員權力結構的不對等，以至於很多事情球員沒有直接跟學校反映，如果有反映到學校，我們一定會好好處理，因為攸關整個權力結構的關係，事後我們也檢討這部分的溝通管道一定要再加強，所以我們在學務處也成立了一個單一管道。"],["萬委員美玲：校長，我對你這樣的心情能理解，但我對你的說法其實不太能接受，如果只是把它列為教練跟學員之間的權力不對等，甚至有一點暗指一直以來都是這樣，或者是有一些陋習等等，而把它訴諸在過程當中學生沒有來反映，所以你要加強溝通，我覺得就太輕忽這個案子了。我們要知道，這個案子從申請計畫開始，有層層把關的審核，學校難道沒有任何監督的責任嗎？一點都沒有嗎？"],["吳校長正己：有，有，有。"],["萬委員美玲：當然有嘛！所以你不是只是片面等待學生來跟你說啊！"],["吳校長正己：我剛才講的是原因之一，原因之二，老師們做研究的研究倫理素養、研究倫理教育，這個也一定要再加強，當然，我們的倫理審查機制也有很多要再進一步改善的地方，一個很重要的點當然就是我們在查核上要更加的加強，在這個研究……"],["萬委員美玲：好，校長，我就直接請教你，這也是我剛剛請教部長的，當然部長等一下要補充回答也可以。我們發現這個案子是這麼嚴重，而6月份教評會的決議和7月份教評會的決議，何以落差會如此之大？"],["吳校長正己：因為我本身不是教評委員會委員，主席是我們副校長，那……"],["萬委員美玲：所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大？"],["吳校長正己：因為討論時我並不在裡面，不過會中是有不同的一些看法，我們在7月25日決議解聘，且4年不得聘任，裡面提到委員有再看了一些錄影帶、聽了一些證據……"],["萬委員美玲：難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎？這是有新的證據嗎？據本席了解，沒有新的證據啊！"],["吳校長正己：這個是在7月25號他們指出來的。"],["萬委員美玲：好，校長，您可以先休息一下。部長，據你了解，為什麼兩次的落差如此之大？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我不排斥周老師對校內長期的一些貢獻，但這是民主法治的社會，你既然身為一個教評會的委員，你應該要就事論事、就證據來給予這一個對老師的課責。我想臺師大當時的霸凌委員會調查後的懲處是2年不得從事教職，我相信學生原來對這一個決定是接受的，但是到校教評會裡面看起來似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，你講的這個是大家都知道的過程啦！我來講一下，我想我們相關的計畫，包括國科會，其實它會去審查每一個學校、每一個單位所提出來的計畫以及核撥的補助，但是學校在執行上面，我想每一個學校都一樣，應該有監督的角色，而不是放任這個計畫自行進行。至於教育部所扮演的角色，在這個案子當中我是沒有看到，不過我們看到亡羊補牢，教育部也在報告當中說，你跟國科會、衛福部、體育署會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的機制，部長，你現在成立一個跨部會的抽查機制，但事實上你就有審查機制，也有監督機制，所以空有機制不去做是沒有用的，我們只是在那邊說得多，但做得少，這一點不是在斥責或是怒罵任何人，而是我們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昨天就知道就收到那個這個行政院的那個議程 昨天就發出去了所以這個 我常常在當公務員的時候也會收到行政院的那個會議通知好 這個不管怎麼樣 越早特別預算越早通過好時間的關係"},{"start":365.468,"end":392.699,"text":"這個半導體關稅打百分之一百當然是說在那邊設產後承諾的但是從過去從川普總統就任到現在他常常改變了常常變了所以我們要因應的事是很多了我們時間的關係我在你的報告裡面特別提到"},{"start":394.003,"end":416.893,"text":"中橫台灣這個部分針對東部提到的是漫活城鄉東部漫活城鄉這是一個很好的方向重點是在於我們的交通我們的交通我們的交通"},{"start":420.685,"end":443.854,"text":"0403地震到現在已經一年多了一年多了0403到現在為止我不斷在這裡質詢在交通委員會也質詢過最近一次724號質詢交通部長宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫"},{"start":445.25,"end":468.198,"text":"他這個只有從德 主要的是從德到河仁這一段1.6公里而已結果一年多了都還沒有核定現在案子還在目前是行事院交付給現在交付到我們這裡那跟委員報告我們現在有些部會已經有回覆了但是還有一些部會我們還在"},{"start":469.218,"end":498.068,"text":"的催促他們盡快恢復那我們等下回去我也會盡量跟部會的首長討論一下我們把這個盡快能夠在最短的時間送到院裡面去一定要協調要請主委協調這個現在是工程委員會還沒有答覆對答覆了之後你們還要開會嗎原則上都會要開一次會所以這個部分我的建議會議通知先發"},{"start":500.597,"end":517.709,"text":"會議通知先發好的 好的這樣的話就他就會急著送來啦好 好不好這個部分因為我們如果去對比北迴鐵路啊北迴鐵路我剛剛講1.6公里那個河壬到崇德這北迴鐵路79.2公里大橋22座16座的隧道啊對不對"},{"start":531.4,"end":558.675,"text":"1973年10月因為羅拉颱風重創東部交通當時的省主席謝東敏提議當時的行政院院長兩個月就核定了所以這個部分當然跟現在不一樣但是也不能1.6公里的河仁到崇德要花一年多的時間這個效率也太那個 所以這跟"},{"start":559.71,"end":573.587,"text":"花東的交通有很大的關係這個部分就請諸委這個會議通知就先發然後這個還沒有送來就是公共工程委會當然馬上就會送給你好不好好的謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":352,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時17分）主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好，辛苦了。今天要談關稅，根據國發會提出的報告，美國川普總統4月2日依國際緊急經濟權力法，自今年4月5日起對所有國家加徵10%對等關稅。在這幾個月的過程當中，對臺灣產業有什麼樣的影響嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：產業其實一開始會感到惶恐，後來大家就利用8月1號之前的空檔加速出貨，所以很多產業都有出貨潮，當然有一部分比較弱勢的產業還是辛苦地在面對，像工具機這些，所以剛好是一個兩面的狀態，一組是非常好地出貨，也造成我們上半年的出口增加了非常多，有將近25%，但是還有一些產業非常辛苦，經濟部也很積極地在跟他們溝通並提供協助。有些產業像鋼鐵、鋁都加了50%，一開始大家覺得衝擊很大，後來經濟部去訪談下來，大家反而更在意的是匯率，而不是那個50%，因為全世界都是50%，當它的對手也是50%的時候，它的競爭並沒有改變，所以等於是多種樣貌產生在產業裡面。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。現在是32%降至20%，雖然我們稱之為暫時性稅率，但是因為還要繼續談，我們說是要繼續談，到底這個「暫時性」是多久？不知道嘛，對不對？就是看談的狀況嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分是一個需要繼續加油的地方。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看當初提出這個特別條例的時候是930億，當然一開始是八百多億，我們質詢時是希望能夠提高，所以送來的是930億。當初這個930億對產業的支持方案是以32%來規劃的，還是以20%來規劃的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：當時是以32%來規劃的。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：半導體關稅達100%那個部分，當然是以在那邊設廠或承諾的……但是從過去川普總統就任到現在，他常常在改變，所以我們要因應的也真的是很多。在你的報告裡面特別提到「均衡臺灣」，針對東部你提到的是「慢活城鄉」，這是一個很好的方向，重點是在於我們的交通。0403地震到現在已經一年多了，到現在為止我不斷在這裡質詢，在交通委員會也質詢過，最近一次是在7月24號質詢交通部部長宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫，它這個主要是崇德到和仁這一段，1.6公里而已。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：結果一年多了都還沒有核定，現在案子目前是行政院交付給國發會。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在是交付到我們這裡，跟委員報告，現在有些部會已經回復了，但是有些部會我們還在催促他們儘快回復，等一下回去我也會儘量跟部會首長討論一下，儘快在最短的時間送到院裡面去。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：一定要協調，請主委協調，現在是公共工程委員會還沒有答復嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：答復之後你們還要開會嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：原則上都要開一次會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！所以這個部分，我的建議是，會議通知先發。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這樣的話，它就會急著送來了，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，沒問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為這個部分，我們如果去對比北迴鐵路，我剛剛講了和仁到崇德是1.6公里，這個北迴鐵路是79.2公里，大橋有22座、16座隧道，對不對？1973年10月因為娜拉颱風重創東部交通，當時的省主席謝東閔提議，當時的行政院院長2個月就核定了，這個部分當然跟現在不一樣，但是1.6公里從和仁到崇德也不能花一年多的時間，這個效率也太那個了，這跟花東的交通有很大的關係，這個部分就請主委先發會議通知。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還沒有送來的就是公共工程委員會，到了它馬上就會送給你了，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["鄭天財Sra 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的時候我在想說我們國發會我們政府這邊會不會有一些什麼樣子的一個表態還是說直接還是把它推給企業就是說這企業的一個行為"},{"start":180.584,"end":199.506,"text":"倒不是要推給企業我們一向是支持台積電的決策因為我是董事我可能講錯什麼會造成股市的變動所以我們一般來講從公司治理是由發言人來發言我們不會對單一公司進行發言"},{"start":200.487,"end":220.404,"text":"那我只是如果從國安會來看今天早上的內容那今天早上的內容他其實又調整到兩千億那第二個事情是主要是他公布出來的是對台積電比較有利就是等於是台積電已經在美國設廠那他就沒有關稅反而其他的競爭者會產生關稅的問題"},{"start":222.446,"end":243.082,"text":"理解那台積電其實在美國有成熟製程在奧羅岡在有很早就去了然後再加上有先進製程其實目前來講是對他比較利多了我在看目前的狀態我剛才提到這個狀態就是說除了國八基金其實是台積電最重要的實質股東之外的那另外一部分就是說因為台積電對台灣確實影響大"},{"start":245.123,"end":272.882,"text":"目前承諾1650億美元的時候大概有5兆台幣的一個狀態那我在想說去投資基本上國際全球佈局都是好事啦只是我們也會擔心就是說再多350如果再多350億那就再多1兆台幣的狀態的時候那投資美國跟投資台灣對於我們的一個資本投資一定會有點不太一樣所以我們也希望說政府在這樣子的一個事情當中說也許會有一個態度出來"},{"start":273.582,"end":294.054,"text":"那讓台積電也許會變成有一個比較好的一個依靠因為有一個最新的新聞因為一大早媒體有報導就是魏哲嘉又急飛美國去那不曉得是什麼事情那我在想說因為就是目前因為整個對等關係還沒有抵定然後很多的企業其實都很擔心都很著急"},{"start":294.774,"end":314.5,"text":"所以就會有些不安的一些情緒在所以我想說政府這邊的態度其實會有一點點重要對安定民心的一個狀態我就肯定是重要的啦那我在想說在這邊的時候我再特別再問一個跟台積電有關的就是這幾天因為台積電的金船的先進製程二奈米製程洩密案"},{"start":315.36,"end":335.973,"text":"就是有工程師偷拍照要給日本的這家公司的時候當然就是台積電他的PIP做得很好這點確實是要肯定他的一個機密資訊的保護做得很好可是我在想說為什麼就是在台積電其實他們在這個"},{"start":337.794,"end":351.129,"text":"PIP的部分其實本來就一直都有說很好的教訓可是還是會有工程師或者高階工程師他們去做這樣的事情我不曉得我們國安這邊政府這邊有沒有特別去關注過這個事情"},{"start":353.368,"end":370.588,"text":"這個部分國科會因為他主掌我們關鍵機密技術的部分所以這個在國安法上面會有我們就有做了一些保護那這個案子現在也是檢調在協助調查"},{"start":372.65,"end":391.951,"text":"那所以呢相關的因應的團隊都出現了那就我的了解它並不是全部的資訊第二個事情是很多事情不是看一個paper就會了譬如說不可能你讀一個怎麼投棒球你就可以去打直棒它中間還有很多那台積電事實上"},{"start":393.223,"end":410.346,"text":"就我了解喔他是把他的機密是切一段一段一段一段的所以呢拿到一段沒辦法知道其他的部分其實也很難去所以說就是因為這樣子所以我覺得有工程師他們去冒這個險冒這個國安的一個險的時候我們就覺得很特殊"},{"start":411.663,"end":431.333,"text":"這個在過去很多的企業有喔那我覺得這個案子會給很多人清楚的知道新的國安法會有12年的徒刑我想會讓很多的工程師開始比較謹慎了否則的話過去好多公司都發生過這種類似的然後有跑到其他國家去的都存在"},{"start":431.493,"end":441.492,"text":"而且除了最高12年的一個刑責之外還有1億的一個法源那這個就讓我想這次利用這次應該會讓很多人都看到了"},{"start":443.044,"end":465.433,"text":"好謝謝主委那我這邊再問一個就是有關聯合再生能源這個部分因為就是去年的時候主委有特別提到說已經針對國發基金針對聯合再生啟動那個退場機制的一個狀態可是到目前為止的時候已經快要一年了那8月27號去年的8月27號已經快要一年了請問到目前的時候進度如何"},{"start":467.193,"end":492.441,"text":"這個我可以說明一下因為我們當時這個部分是參與私募那私募如果像我現在是規範私募在公司賺錢的時候我就要時間到就要轉成一般股那一般股就可以在股市買賣那這個當時因為他不賺錢所以就一直留在私募這個部分那私募的話就要整個批量線下交易那他要打折"},{"start":492.961,"end":521.619,"text":"所以我講的狀態就是2018年的時候那時候國發基金要用私募普通股的方式進場的時候因為坦白說那個時候聯合再生的那個表現其實就不是特別的好而且整個國際的一個大環境對於這個光電業的部分的時候其實也不是那麼看好所以我們當時為什麼國發基金會用私募普通股的方式進去我比較關心這決策的一個過程那我們也希望從這過程當中的時候得到一些"},{"start":522.679,"end":551.119,"text":"教訓就是我們在做這樣子的一個投資的一個決策過程當中的時候會不會有一些更好的一個機制更透明的一個機制在當時因為它本身就是就是發行私募那第二次增資我們就是普通股那普通股其實我們有在傾那私募要找買家是比較辛苦一點那的確我們目前的進度是不好的那第二個原因是我們在委員會核定的價格"},{"start":551.799,"end":577.264,"text":"也比較高不符合一般私募的要求那因為我們是獨立性的委員會那國發基金請委員弄的核定以後我們就是依據這個價格進行找買主那我們是有委託兩次其實都非常辛苦那我們現在是這樣子任何的特別股跟私募都要經過我先看過來核定那我得看到特別股的條件"},{"start":578.665,"end":591.656,"text":"那我們我們比以前還謹慎第二個部分我們也開始我也要求所有的我們都檢核一遍就是說只要能夠吻合轉換的我們就一律都轉換那這樣的話就可以在公開市場進行來來來拋售"},{"start":595.616,"end":617.155,"text":"謝謝主委因為你今天報告當中有特別提到了就是那個在整個新動能的部分有提到提升投資動能那裡面提到了一個那個均衡台灣的一個六大區域產業生活圈的部分那因為之前在賴總統24年選舉之前的時候特別提到桃竹苗大細股計畫這部分那我也非常的關注"},{"start":617.836,"end":636.695,"text":"那我想說因為這東西我想說國發會這邊肯定有些管考的一個計畫那我在想說這個桃園大細股計畫的時候後續的進度如何然後會不會這四年當中都還是只是留於一個口號的狀態所以我比較關注的是它的一個具體的一個進度"},{"start":638.357,"end":655.603,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這次我們除了這個我們六大區域裡面的桃竹苗大溪谷是第一個死刑案例那我們其實做了兩件事還做了區域治理什麼區域治理就是說我們當時邀請過桃園市長新竹縣長新竹市長"},{"start":660.745,"end":683.894,"text":"苗栗縣長一起到我們國發會來那我們跟他們說明整個計畫因為這裡面含中央跟地方要一起搭配尤其地方要搭配的是比較屬於生態系的部分包括住宅也好 商場也好中央還有學校 有醫院等等我們就大家一起"},{"start":685.074,"end":710.093,"text":"把這個計畫做一個商討以後我們建了一個平台是由我們的副主委跟他們的副市長跟縣長大家進行溝通所以就會產生就是說像中央的交通建設我們會做地方的他們要進行規劃那就大家在這個平台上一起在談討所以新竹市也會有新竹市政府當時代理市長也有來那他們也會依據這個部分開始往下規劃"},{"start":711.834,"end":732.582,"text":"我們這個平台是他有遇到困難我們會來探討好 謝謝主委那我在想這個部分是我們希望說能夠有具體的進度然後主委把它落實下來然後盡速把它落實下來再盡快看怎麼樣大家可以從中央跟地方之間大家來落實桃園大氣谷好 謝謝主委主委平安 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請鄭天才委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時5分）謝謝主席，我想請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：鄭委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委平安。非常感謝今天主席的安排，針對「美國對等關稅底定後，我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈局新規劃」，坦白說，因為目前我們的對等關稅還沒有底定，不過我們也從主委今天的報告當中看到了一些新的內容，包括你講的「新產業、新動能、新佈局」這部分。","我再請教一個部分，因為目前在整個對等關稅當中都會碰到幾個狀態，包括投資金額的承諾部分，那我想問，比方說不管臺灣這邊到時候被迫或者是主動要去投資多少的金額，企業的投資金額裡面，算不算在這個承諾的金額裡頭？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我並沒有參與談判，但從日本來看，日本的是含企業投資。"],["鄭委員正鈐：日本是含企業，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它有一部分的那個……像孫正義的投資，媒體……"],["鄭委員正鈐：不過因為之前AIT曾經出來講，就是企業的投資部分可能不算在這裡頭，你知道這個訊息嗎？之前鏡週刊本來有一個新聞公布出來，後來很快下架，你有注意到這個訊息嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有注意到這個訊息，但是我有看到日本相關的訊息。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以日本他們是企業投資，政府鼓勵企業投資，也包含在這個承諾金額裡頭？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：5,500億裡頭？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：看整個國家的投資嘛！"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，這個部分我想特別問的狀態就是，台積電是我們去美國投資當中很重要的一個部分，剛剛很多委員也都提到，護國神山的動向是動見觀瞻，因為我們國發基金其實也是目前台積電最主要的實質股東，大概占6.38%股份，其實非常多，所以我們肯定對台積電這邊也會有一些影響力。今天早上川普說了，他再度點名，你剛才也提到，第二次點名，就是說台積電要去投2,000億。而8月5號的時候，台積電是直接表示他們要投1,650億，這當中有350億差距，我在想我們國發會、政府這邊會不會有一些什麼樣的表態，還是直接把它推給企業，就說這是企業的一個行為？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：倒不是要推給企業，我們一向是支持台積電的決策。因為我是董事，我可能講錯什麼會造成股市的變動，所以我們一般來講，從公司治理是由發言人來發言，我們不會對單一公司進行發言。如果從國發會來看，今天早上的內容，他其實又調整到2,000億。第二個事情，主要是他公布出來的是對台積電比較有利的，就等於是台積電已經在美國設廠，那它就沒有關稅，反而其他的競爭者會產生關稅的問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電其實在美國有成熟製程，在奧勒岡，很早就去了，然後再加上有先進製程，其實目前來講是對它比較利多，我在看目前的狀態……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我剛剛特別提到這個狀態就是，除了國發基金其實是台積電最重要的實質股東之外，另外一部分，因為台積電對臺灣確實影響很大，目前承諾1,650億美元，大概有5兆臺幣。那我在想說去投資，基本上國際、全球布局都是好事，只是我們也會擔心，如果再多350億，那就是再多1兆臺幣，那投資美國跟投資臺灣，對於我們的資本投資一定會有點不太一樣，所以我們也希望政府在這樣的過程當中能有一個態度出來，讓台積電有一個比較好的依靠，因為有一則最新的新聞就是今天一大早媒體報導魏哲家急飛美國，不曉得是什麼事情。因為目前整個對等關稅還沒有底定，很多企業都很擔心、很著急，就會有一些不安的情緒，所以政府的態度對安定民心肯定是重要的。","在此特別問一個和台積電有關的問題，這幾天台積電驚傳2奈米先進製程洩密案，有工程師偷拍照片要給日本的Rapidus這家公司，當然，台積電的PIP（機密資訊保護）做得很好，這點確實要予以肯定，可是我在想，為什麼他們的PIP一直都做得那麼好，還是會有工程師或者高階工程師要去做這樣的事情？請問政府這邊有沒有特別去關注這個事情？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分因為國科會執掌我們的關鍵機密技術，所以這在國安法上面有做一些保護。這個案子現在檢調在協助調查，所以相關的因應團隊都出現了，就我的瞭解，它並不是全部的資訊。第二，很多事情不是看一個paper就會了，譬如說不可能讀一篇怎麼投棒球的文章，就可以去打職棒，它中間還有很多。就我瞭解，台積電是把他們的機密切成一段、一段、一段的，所以拿到其中一段，並沒有辦法知道其他的部分……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也很難去……"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是因為這樣，所以有工程師願意冒國安方面的險，我們就覺得很特殊。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個過去很多企業也有喔！我覺得這個案子會讓很多人清楚地知道，根據新的國安法，會有12年的徒刑，這會讓很多工程師開始比較謹慎，否則過去好多公司都發生過類似的事情，也有跑到其他國家去的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：而且除了最高12年的刑責之外，還有1億的罰鍰。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：透過這次的事情，應該會讓很多人都看到。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝主委。","我再問一件事情，就是有關聯合再生能源的部分，去年主委有特別提到國發基金已經針對聯合再生啟動退場機制，可是從去年8月27日到現在已經快要1年了，請問目前進度如何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我可以說明一下，因為這個部分我們當時是參與私募，像我現在是規範，私募在公司賺錢的時候，時間到了就要轉成一般股，一般股就可以在股市買賣，這個當時因為它不賺錢，所以就一直留在私募這個部分，私募的話就要整個批量線下交易，它要打折……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我講的狀態就是，2018年國發基金要用私募普通股進場的時候，坦白說，當時聯合再生的表現其實就不是特別的好，而且整個國際大環境對於光電業的部分其實也不是那麼看好，所以國發基金當時為什麼會用私募普通股的方式進去？我比較關心的是這個決策的過程，也希望從這個過程當中得到一些教訓，就是我們在做這樣一個投資的決策過程當中，會不會有一些更好、更透明的機制？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：當時因為它本身就是發行私募，第二次增資我們就是普通股，普通股其實我們有在清了，私募要找買家是比較辛苦一點，的確我們目前的進度是不好的，第二個原因是我們在委員會核定的價格也比較高，不符合一般私募的要求。因為我們是獨立性的委員會，國發基金請委員核定以後，我們就依據這個價格去找買主，我們是有委託兩次，其實都非常辛苦。我們現在是這樣，任何特別股和私募都要經過我先看過再核定，我必須看到特別股的條件，我們比以前還謹慎。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：第二個部分是我們也開始、我也要求所有的……我們都檢核一遍，就是只要能夠吻合轉換的，我們就一律都轉換，這樣就可以在公開市場進行拋售。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝主委，因為你今天在報告「新動能」的部分特別提到「提升投資動能」，內容包括政府將落實「均衡臺灣」理念，打造六大區域產業及生活圈。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為賴總統在2024年選舉時有特別提到桃竹苗大矽谷計畫，這部分我也非常關注，這個東西國發會肯定有一些管考的計畫，不曉得這個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的後續進度如何？會不會這4年當中都只是流於口號？也就是說，我比較關注的是它的具體進度。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，這次在六大區域裡面，桃竹苗大矽谷是第一個試行的案例，我們其實做了兩件事情，還做了區域治理，什麼是區域治理？就是我們當時邀請桃園市長、新竹縣長、新竹市長和苗栗縣長一起到國發會來，跟他們說明整個計畫，因為這裡面中央和地方要一起搭配，地方要搭配的比較是屬於生態系的部分，包括住宅、商場，中央還有學校、醫院等等，我們大家一起把這個計畫做一個商討以後，建了一個平臺，由我們的副主委和他們的副縣市長，大家進行溝通，所以就會產生像中央的交通建設我們會做，地方的則是由他們進行規劃，大家在這個平臺上一起探討。當時新竹市的代理市長也有來，他們也會依據這個部分開始往下規劃。這個平臺是他有遇到困難的時候，我們就會來探討。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝主委，這個部分我們希望能有具體的進度，然後儘速把它落實下來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們也很樂意，大家儘快看怎麼樣從中央和地方之間落實桃竹苗大矽谷計畫。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝主委，主委平安，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員好部長好在葉秉成次長的這件事情上面他因為在五月中有請假請問一下在這個調查委員會教育部總共開了幾次到現在"},{"start":32.759,"end":47.875,"text":"要查委員會就是開會開了幾次跟委員報告因為這一個我們這一個當這一個選投訴的時候我們在5月2323號的時候就教育部的一個性評委員會就成立然後就召開確認"},{"start":49.757,"end":70.073,"text":"講次數我現在重點是在次數就這個案子5月235月23因為業次長他是在4月的時候嘛那5月23就成立了這個教育的而且有開會嗎有開會開會第一次開會然後專案小組在5月26號就正式成立所以業次長也因為專案小組成立因為"},{"start":71.074,"end":80.262,"text":"確立要調查成立的專案小組然後這委員會很快的委請了這些這個領域的這個學術專家那最近的那一次結果是什麼這一個對不起因為整個還是在專案小組的一個調查裡邊我想我們尊重調查小組的一個會議在還調查期間我事實上我也在討論有關業比 業資上應該你知道應該知道幾次會議對吧"},{"start":98.201,"end":112.576,"text":"幾次會議對不起我沒有辦法回答委員也許我事後可以幾次會議當然是可以因為報紙上都有講出來在7月28號的時候其實都已經有召開一次會議那是另外那是初步的一個大會的一個會議但是大會會議對專案小組的一個調查仍有一些"},{"start":117.621,"end":134.582,"text":"這一個希望在年輕了所以才會再延長那我要跟委員報告因為涉及到我們葉市長的這個職務跟身分的關係教育部包含我所有的教育部的代表我們全部都是迴避了所以我們基本上我們是不曉得這個整個後來的一個"},{"start":137.185,"end":150.392,"text":"因為記得你們還是主責的部分啦當然說這該開幾次會議應該要了解如果到目前我聽的資料除了8月23號到7月28號之後看起來就只有兩次期初跟7月28號就只有開兩次會那目前說到8月20號我們現在要講的是這件事情跟跟我們的教師的士氣是會有相關的因為如果在"},{"start":162.776,"end":182.829,"text":"兩個七十二天的時間之內只開頭第一次跟第二次會議之後越來預計8月22號再開個最後結案會議而且是在大罷免之前所以在第二次的罷免之前的時候那這樣子變成說產生一個效果是半小不半大這都對我們的基層的老師的士氣可能很大的影響我們就先到這邊為止我要跟委員報告外面有許多的猜測這都是不真實的"},{"start":188.089,"end":205.48,"text":"因為就我個人來講我希望有關陳儒剛才主席也特別關注到我們總是希望這個事情到底是怎麼樣越早結束越好但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面因為涉及到當事人我們希望配合當事人還有許多相關利害關係人"},{"start":206.22,"end":211.744,"text":"在第一個月我原來希望一個月就結束但是後來專案小組在整個查證的資料過程裡面他們認為必須要到兩個月好那我們就等待希望是到時候給全國教師的一個印象是休育部是應該辦大也要辦小而且合理的辦"},{"start":229.356,"end":239.161,"text":"我想這我們一定會遵照法令上來做的這也是 質評論這也是我的痛我必須要講 我希望他趕快 請住不好意思 麻煩讓委員講完我們現在回到的是今天的一個主持那因為我本身是個大學教師所以也特別正視到對教師這部分的內容我們看一下"},{"start":253.843,"end":267.247,"text":"在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來說111年到114年的當中呢國高中的這個老師的缺額已經有改善了但是我想要問的是說在113年剛剛過去的這個113年一般的國中小學的師生比是多少2.0一般的是兩個"},{"start":290.421,"end":304.572,"text":"好那我請問一下齁那在這個情況之下那台北市的我說的師生比齁就在於說那一個學一個老師到底照顧多少的學生尤其在台北市像另外再找一個一個高雄市來講的話有沒有這下的數據有嗎"},{"start":307.944,"end":328.095,"text":"因為從教師團體所得到的訊息台北市的部分是缺二事實上是他的學生或是新北市的人數是非常多的是 跟委員報告按照原來編制的標準一個班大概不能超過29人小學國中是30人就台北實際的狀況每一個班會不一樣有些班級可能18人有些可能到滿29人那這個數字我們後續會給您大概先下班前我們把台北市問一下"},{"start":334.919,"end":356.369,"text":"那委員剛才講的那個台北市個別的因素我們也有注意到我們也會一起來處理 謝謝好 謝謝那另外我們看到今年已經現在已經到一百一十四學年度了吧那我們看到的是從你們報告當中得知到國小的是八點八五那國中是六點二五高中是六趴那你們是標準是說達到八趴是大概是合理的情況那像這樣的情況之下目前連開學還不到一個月請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理法"},{"start":360.425,"end":376.237,"text":"跟委員報告這不是這個代理代課這個控制在8%以下它這是今年的中小學教師的增試那不足額大概有8.8%比如說以國中的6.25%大概就是有125個人因為它總共這一個"},{"start":385.263,"end":392.068,"text":"部主委我跟您報告一下在我們的報告第二頁有寫到像小學為例他要考3108人那麼他考了大概2833人所以他有815人大概有8.85錄取率"},{"start":403.862,"end":431.861,"text":"這個是開學出來的比例所以他這個不是代理律不是代理老師現在委員這個都是正式老師好 是正式老師那事實上還是有缺額吧因為我現在都在看下面這張可以知道以今年在6月17號所看到的台北市的 不過你教育部剛剛部長有說這部分他們有特別的一些因素存在的不過因為一般的這個代理教師這部分他還是有相當一個比例尤其是在偏遠學校嘛 對吧"},{"start":433.144,"end":438.802,"text":"是那偏遠的學校現在帶領教師的這個比例是多少跟委員報告台北"},{"start":440.014,"end":461.98,"text":"教師這一個叫做脫北的這一個名詞我現在問的是我剛才有說特殊的因素我知道但是這部分不一樣因為早期台北市因為當然他的生活機能部長請你尊重我剛才講的這個事情我知道因為我看到報紙有說特別針對偏遠教師的目前的代理教師的比例是多少"},{"start":462.878,"end":480.449,"text":"台北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的我不是說台北市 我說全國的跟委員報告一下如果講代理率的話台灣的偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%A班地區大概15%代理率對 所以這個地方的話那現在馬上要開選 那怎麼個處理法"},{"start":484.184,"end":500.336,"text":"有一些具體的這個技術面的事情跟您報告一下第一點我們會周周控管來協助地方政府第二點正式老師那個缺額在前面七月底以前他們考過之後會放到代理這邊所以我們現在從現在開始在考代理老師我們會周周來協助22縣市"},{"start":502.157,"end":510.579,"text":"好 希望我們的尤其是偏向學校的老師他們在現場能夠真的是幫助到我們的學生不然的話這是已經要開學沒辦法處理的那我們繼續往下看喔包括你們的報告當中也呈現到說之前還沒看到你們報告之前我們知道在儲備教師這部分有的是目前有逾7萬人不過因為你們後來已經昨天的報告當中最新呈現出來說如果以活躍的這個儲備教師來看的話呢是有2萬7千人"},{"start":531.243,"end":548.136,"text":"那應徵率五年內是八成那報考是八成就再去做這個徵試的部分三年內報考是七成五可是為什麼你越來越近的時間內反而是他的去報考徵試的部分是人數少的而且我們再看看旁邊的這邊大家也看到遠見雜誌的這個內容當中就算是擔任正式教師之後呢他"},{"start":552.399,"end":560.384,"text":"他的這個比例從69.1下滑到57.5呢他繼續要留下來這部分他甚至不願意要進入到教室這些部分而且呢這些部分呢就會造成的是因為老師出去之後後來導致代理教室就越來越進去到裡面去那請問部長是說您知道說為什麼放棄這個教室正式教室他會放棄這樣的一個教室嗎"},{"start":578.357,"end":602.304,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們這些年來在世代交替退休的人數是多的那再加上少子化所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留的比例來聘待老師可是我也跟委員報告我們這三年來為什麼會各縣市開始把這一個正式的確有出來是因為我們一一年政策做了一些"},{"start":603.784,"end":618.957,"text":"要求在配合一般補助一般地方的補助款裡邊我們把各地方的教師的這個專任營養的控管比例納入我們獎補助的一個指標所以各縣市就開始把"},{"start":619.977,"end":641.025,"text":"這個部分我都知道 但是我先跟秀一下這個資料齁這個昨天在偏遠教師的這邊呈現出來有民間團體呈現出來 大家看一下這個資料齁全職的外送員他的薪資在平常狀況之下的時候是大概4萬到8萬高的話還可以到8萬到這個地方正式的教師如果新進的部分啦他事實上是3萬2到3萬5那國小的這個部分的新進教師呢是到達大概碩士的大概4萬如果你就這個地方來看的話"},{"start":649.188,"end":662.078,"text":"教師他如果獲得到一個不是很好的待遇的情況之下包括沒有尊重的話這就是一個原因這部分那第二個我們再看一下的時候是有一個地方的教師團體跟我們的反應的時候是呈現出來是目前在高級中等以下學校教師的解併跟不續併跟停併跟諮詢辦法當中很清楚的呈現到說如果是因為在校園裡面有"},{"start":674.248,"end":680.313,"text":"出現到說有疑似到被害對這個學生部分有對這個學習權、受教權或身體自主權等等的這個人格氾濫權有影響的時候呢就進入到校事會議而校事會議重要是要在包括連媒體報導的部分都呈現出來就是他就進到調查的這個而且調查的內容的過程非常繁瑣這個情況之下"},{"start":695.026,"end":702.408,"text":"請問校長 請問部長齁 一個校育的團體 教育的這個機構裡面用的是直接進入到所謂的用調查的方式 而不是回歸到教育的本質因為部長你之前也是大學的校長 教授等等的這個部分的話 你面對這種情況之下 尤其這是一個辦法是在屬於行政命令的部分 對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現而且是很多的教師團體 全教總都出現這個意見的 你們有什麼看法"},{"start":723.302,"end":750.805,"text":"各位報告校士法大概校士的規定是在教師法下的一個授權那從去年開始實施確實在這一年裡邊我們也發現了不少的問題那當然我們國教署也在收集這些問題簡單來講我們目前的學校學生或者老師師生的一些行為上的一個這個糾正或者這個懲處他本來是學校有"},{"start":751.96,"end":776.489,"text":"教評會過去都是在教評會現在多了一個校事會校事會那校事會裡面就會涉及到這一個解聘這一個停聘不續聘等等的這些很複雜的問題就是說我們包含學生的一些衝突等等的一個處理所以我們現在就在想因為進入到校事會議目前都是法令規範都是校外的學者專家或者領域專家來針對學校的視線來做這一個調查"},{"start":781.371,"end":802.648,"text":"那學校裡面會造成一些困擾就是說因為他們可能有專業但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚了解所以我們現在在研議收集全國的一個資料希望是不是能夠至少教師的代表家長的代表他了解這個學校實際的運作然後再加上"},{"start":803.368,"end":827.585,"text":"這個一半以上的這些校外委員 學者專家 領域專家來共同來比較有一個好的一個討論能夠希望不要造成這個被冤枉但是如果真的不良老師我們當然希望他退場但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的教育所以我想簡單一句是說你們事實上在定期在做檢討事實上準備在做了那大概是多久時間呢"},{"start":828.866,"end":856.567,"text":"大概是不是有大概在今年的大概十月左右年底之前我想我們會有一個訂入出來年底之前是好 謝謝好 那這個部分我剛才也提到說這個是不是沒有那兩個東西其實最重要的這個辛酸當你教師沒辦法去得到一個認同原來是一個置業的事情而不是一個職業卻當中這個效果其實是很遺憾的然後另外的部分我們再去往下看簡單的部分我還是必須要提供一個議題這在於說"},{"start":862.903,"end":881.038,"text":"這個部分在於因為在前幾個禮拜之前出現到一個問題是在於說你們的一個師特別針對在偏鄉的尤其在自然教師這部分的時候尤其在STEM的這個情況那他提出來的部分就是說對於這個專業教師呢"},{"start":883.32,"end":888.042,"text":"因為這個少那這邊部分引進到所謂高中教師的有這個相關的辦法所以說針對這些老師在自然科學的部分讓用免休職前學分跟免考試跟免實習的狀況的這個條件來讓大家支援可是這個支援的部分是在國小的部分那這邊部分國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應因為大家要知道"},{"start":908.97,"end":935.09,"text":"這個如果是有專技的這些部分的他是在高中沒有問題可是你們卻是用這個高中的這個辦法來去引用到國小的這樣的師資的自然科學的部分其實教也是對於學對教師是非常大的一個一個一個一個貶義啊因為老師他必須修了很多的這個學分包括是怎麼樣去對待學生怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的沒有如果沒有這些部分的話那直接到國小的時候他可能會造成這一種隔閡那請問部長您的看法"},{"start":938.952,"end":954.591,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會事實上我們的想法是因為現在高職類科特別在高職類科有許多的理工的這些專業的科目學科的專業的科目找不到老師"},{"start":955.552,"end":977.802,"text":"那我們就希望說有許多大學退場的或者大學的一些科技大學的老師他退學校可能退場但是他非常優秀他能夠轉任到高職或者產業都在R&D裡邊或者他在對產業他都是有Master degree以上的他們有願意轉任因為以我們現在來講業師"},{"start":980.123,"end":983.926,"text":"他本來就沒有任何專業的事但是我們這裡邊還有6年的這個工作的機會有一些條件的限制他能夠真正的專業能夠滿足又能夠有產業豐富的經驗能夠協助我們高職我想訊息上有一些報導上有一些落差他涉及包括還有小學的部分如果只是在高職這部分我們優先要考量的是高中職的老師"},{"start":1010.203,"end":1031.838,"text":"在STEM的這個領域裡邊的老師的這個來源所以你指中的高職就對了是吧我目前是鎖定在高中好 如果這樣子的話就沒問題我們再做一個澄清 謝謝那這一部分配合在我們的一個有一些選服的部分我就簡單的詢問一下在這部分對於在私校的這個學雜費的部分那這部分因為它有大概"},{"start":1032.698,"end":1041.704,"text":"十幾年這個都沒有漲價了那你們對這部分有沒有在思效的部分因為思效的還是有多的是自己的一個學費所收入那你們這部分有沒有什麼看法放寬他的一個"},{"start":1045.975,"end":1071.197,"text":"主席大概就一分鐘多就結束了謝謝報告委員我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算要來協助學校他來申請特別預算的部分相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費不調漲學雜費但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營"},{"start":1072.615,"end":1084.048,"text":"所以還是有可能的 是不是就是說用救愛部對學校的這種補助款的方式去抑制他們的經營是好 張主任高中的部分的學費是我們來協助但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定"},{"start":1085.578,"end":1098.23,"text":"OK 好 謝謝市長的一個部分好 那我目前的好 那就是現在做了一個這樣子一個說明就謝謝 謝謝這個支部 交易部的這個相關的主事部長還有 那好 謝謝主席給我這麼多時間 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（9時51分）有請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：部長好。葉丙成次長的這件事情，因為他在5月中請假，請問在這個調查委員會，教育部到現在總共開了幾次？"],["鄭部長英耀：調查委員會……"],["劉委員書彬：就是開會開了幾次？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，當這個學生投訴的時候，教育部在5月23日成立性平委員會，然後就召開確認，成立以後……"],["劉委員書彬：講次數，我現在重點是在次數。"],["鄭部長英耀：就這個案子，5月23日，因為葉次長是在4月的時候，5月23日就成立了教育部的……"],["劉委員書彬：最近有開會嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：有開會。"],["劉委員書彬：第幾次？"],["鄭部長英耀：第一次開會，專案小組在5月26日就正式成立，所以葉次長也因為專案小組成立確立要調查，委員會很快地委請了這個領域的學者專家……"],["劉委員書彬：最近的那一次結果是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，因為整個還在專案小組的調查流程，我們尊重調查小組的會議，還在調查期間，事實上，我也在討論有關葉次長……"],["劉委員書彬：可是幾次會議你知道嗎？你應該知道幾次會議，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起我沒有辦法回答委員，也許我事後可以回復幾次會議，這當然是可以……"],["劉委員書彬：因為報紙上都已經講出來，在7月28日的時候其實已經有召開一次會議了。"],["鄭部長英耀：那是另外、初步的一個大會會議，但是大會會議對專案小組的調查仍有一些希望再釐清，所以才會再延長。我要跟委員報告，因為涉及到葉次長的職務跟身分關係，教育部包含我、所有的教育部代表，我們全部都迴避了，所以基本上我們不曉得整個後來的……"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是因為你們還是主責，當然該開幾次會議應該要了解，到目前我聽得的資料，除了5月23日到7月28日之後，看起來就只有2次，期初跟7月28日，就只有開2次會，接著是8月22日要開。","我現在要講的是，這件事情會跟教師的士氣相關，因為如果在72天之內，只開第一次跟第二次會議，未來預計8月22日再開個最後結案會議，而且是在第二次的大罷免之前，這樣子會產生一個效果是「辦小不辦大」，這對基層老師的士氣可能有很大的影響，我們就先講到這邊為止。"],["鄭部長英耀：我要跟委員報告，外面有許多的猜測，這都是不真實的，就我個人來講，誠如剛才主席也特別關注到，我們總是希望了解這個事情到底是怎麼樣，越早結束越好，但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面，因為涉及到當事人，希望配合當事人，還有許多相關利害關係人的資證……"],["劉委員書彬：沒有，我想重點在於……我們先到此為止……因為你們的時間，在之後的幾個禮拜能不能達到這個效果……"],["鄭部長英耀：在第一個月，我原來希望一個月就結束，但是後來專案小組在整個查證資料過程，他們認為必須要到兩個月……"],["劉委員書彬：好，那我們就等待，希望到時候給全國的教師印象是……"],["鄭部長英耀：那兩個月以後，大會又決議……"],["劉委員書彬：教育部是應該辦大也要辦小……"],["鄭部長英耀：對調查小組的……"],["劉委員書彬：合理的辦！"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們一定會遵照法令來做的，持平而論這也是我的痛。"],["劉委員書彬：今天的主旨是……謝謝教育部部長，部長，請你停止，尊重我的質詢、我的時間。"],["鄭部長英耀：這我必須要講，我希望他趕快……"],["主席：部長，不好意思，麻煩讓委員講完，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，不好意思。"],["劉委員書彬：我們現在回到今天的主旨，因為我本身是個大學教師，所以也特別針對教師這部分的內容，我們看一下，在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來111年到114年國高中的老師缺額已經有改善，但是我想要問的是，在剛剛過去的這113年，一班的國中小學的師生比是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：小學是2.0。"],["劉委員書彬：2.0？一班就是兩個……"],["鄭部長英耀：一般師生是1.65，偏鄉是2.0，然後一般國中是2.2，但是偏鄉在六班以下我們是給3為原則。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那我請問一下，在這個情況之下，我說的師生比就在於一個老師到底照顧多少的學生，尤其在臺北市，另外再找高雄市來講，有現在的數據嗎？因為從教師團體所得到的訊息，臺北市是缺額，事實上它的學生或新北市的學生數是非常多的。"],["彭署長富源：是，跟委員報告，按照員額編制的標準，小學一個班大概不能超過29人，國中是30人，就臺北實際的狀況，每一個班會不一樣，有些班級可能18人，有些可能到滿29人，這個數字我們後續會給您，大概今天下班前，我們問一下臺北市。"],["劉委員書彬：好，就這樣。"],["彭署長富源：委員剛才講的那個臺北市個別的因素，我們也有注意到，我們也會一起來處理。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。另外，我們看到今年已經到114學年度了，從你的報告當中得知未足額錄取佔開缺比率國小是8.85%，國中是6.25%，高中是6%，那你們的標準說達到8%是合理的情況，在這樣的情況之下，距離開學還不到一個月，請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這不是代理、代課控制在8%以下，這是今年中小學教師的甄試，不足額大概有8.8%，比如國中的6.25%，大概就是有125個人，因為它總共……"],["彭署長富源：跟您報告一下，在我們的報告第二頁有寫到，以小學為例，開缺3,108人，結果錄取了2,833人，所以未足額錄取佔開缺比率大概有8.85%的錄取率。"],["劉委員書彬：這是開缺出來的比率，好，那這部分……"],["彭署長富源：所以這不是代理率，不是代理老師，委員，這些都是正式老師。"],["劉委員書彬：好，是正式老師，那事實上還是有缺額，因為我們現在看下面這張可以知道，以今年6月17號所看到的，臺北市的，剛剛部長有說這部分他們有一些特別的因素存在，不過，因為一般的代理教師還是有相當的比例，尤其是在偏遠學校，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["劉委員書彬：那偏遠學校現在的代理教師比例是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，臺北教師「脫北」的名詞……"],["劉委員書彬：我現在問的是……我知道你剛才有說特殊因素，但是這部分不要……"],["鄭部長英耀：因為早期臺北市的生活機能……"],["劉委員書彬：部長，請你尊重我的……我剛才講這個事情我知道，因為我看到報紙有說了，但是我想請問偏遠學校目前代理教師的比例是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：臺北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的。"],["劉委員書彬：我不是說臺北市，我是說全國的。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告一下，如果講代理率的話，臺灣偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%，一般地區代理率大概15%。"],["劉委員書彬：對，現在馬上要開學了，那怎麼處理？"],["彭署長富源：有一些具體的技術面的事情跟您報告一下：第一點，我們會週週控管來協助地方政府，第二點，正式老師的缺額在7月底以前他們考過之後，會放到代理這邊，所以我們從現在開始在考代理老師，我們會週週來協助22縣市。"],["劉委員書彬：好，希望尤其是偏鄉學校的老師在現場能夠真的幫助到我們的學生，不然的話，已經要開學了，還沒辦法處理","我們繼續往下看，你們的報告也呈現出……還沒看到你們報告之前，我們知道在儲備教師這部分目前有逾7萬人，不過，你們昨天的報告最新呈現出來的是，如果以活躍的儲備教師來看的話，有2萬7,000人，應徵率5年內是八成，報考是八成，就是去做甄試的部分，3年內的報考率是七成五，可是為什麼越近的時間內，報考、甄試的人數是少的？我們再看看旁邊的這篇遠見雜誌的報導當中，就算是擔任正式教師之後，繼續要留下來的比例從69.1滑到57.5，他甚至不願意要進入教職，因為老師出缺之後，代理教師考上，又導致代理教師出缺，請問部長，您知道為什麼正式教師會放棄教職嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，其實我們這些年來在世代交替，退休的人數是多的，再加上少子化，所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留比例來聘代理老師。可是我也跟委員報告，這三年來為什麼各縣市會開始把正式缺額提出來？是因為我們111年在政策上做了一些要求，再配合一般地方的補助款，我們把各地方專任教師員額的控管比例納入我們獎補助的指標，所以各縣市就開始把比較多的正式教師缺放出來。"],["劉委員書彬：這個部分我都知道，但是我先秀一下這個資料，民間團體呈現出來的偏遠教師的狀況，全職外送員的薪資在平常狀況之下大概是四萬到八萬，高的話還可以到八萬，但正式教師如果是新進的，事實上是三萬二到三萬五，國小的新進教師，碩士大概是四萬。就這個地方來看，當教師獲得不是很好的待遇，包括沒有尊重的話，這就是一個離職原因。第二個，我們再看一下，有一個地方的教師團體跟我們反映，目前在高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法當中很清楚的呈現，如果教師在校園裡面出現對學生學習權、身體自主權、人格發展權有影響的時候，就進入到校事會議。而校事會議的重要在，包括連媒體報導都呈現出來，就是進到調查的階段，而且調查的內容、過程非常繁瑣，在這個情況之下，請問部長，一個教育團體、機構直接用調查的方式，而不是回歸到教育的本質……部長，您之前也是大學的校長、教授，您面對這種情況，尤其這是一個辦法，是屬於行政命令的部分，對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現，而且是很多的教師團體、全教總都出現了這個意見，你們什麼看法？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，校事的規定是在教師法下的一個授權，從去年開始實施，確實在這一年裡我們也發現了不少的問題，當然我們國教署也在蒐集這些問題。簡單來講，目前學生或老師的一些行為上的糾正或懲處，本來學校有教評會，過去都是在教評會，現在多了一個校事會，那校事會會涉及解聘、停聘、不續聘等等很複雜的問題，包含學生的一些衝突等等的處理。所以我們現在就在想，因為進入到校事會議，目前的法令規範都是由校外的學者專家或領域專家針對學校的事件來做調查，這在學校裡面會造成一些困擾，就是因為他們可能有專業，但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚、了解。所以我們現在在研議、蒐集全國的資料，希望至少教師的代表、家長的代表能夠了解學校的實際的運作，再加上一半以上的校外委員、學者、專家、領域專家來共同有好的討論，希望不要造成被冤枉。如果真的是不良老師，我們當然希望他退場，但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的……"],["劉委員書彬：所以我想簡單一句是，事實上你們定期做檢討，準備在做了？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們現在正在……"],["劉委員書彬：大概是多久時間呢？大概在今年的10月左右？什麼時間？可以訂出一個時間嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：年底前，我想我們會訂定出來。"],["劉委員書彬：年底之前？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。這個部分我剛才也提到這不是累，那兩個東西其實最重要的，這個辛酸，當你教師沒辦法去得到認同與尊重，是一個志業的事情，而不是一個職業，卻造成這個效果，其實很遺憾的。另外我還是必須要提供一個議題，前幾個禮拜之前出現一個問題是在於你們的一個司，特別針對在偏鄉尤其在自然教師、在STEM的情況提出疑問，對於專業教師少引進高中教師的相關辦法……針對自然科學部分的老師，用免修職前學分、免考試跟免實習的條件讓大家來支援，可是這個支援是在國中、國小的部分，國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應？因為大家要知道，如果是有專技部分的，它是在高中沒有問題，可是你們卻是用高中的辦法引用到國小自然科學師資的部分，其實對於教師也是非常大的貶抑，因為老師必須修了很多的學分，包括怎麼樣去對待學生、怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的，如果沒有這些部分，這些到國小時可能會造成一種隔閡，請問部長您的看法。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會。事實上，我們的想法是因為現在特別在高職類科，有許多理工的專業科目、學科的專業科目找不到老師，我們就希望有許多大學退場的或者一些科技大學的老師，可能學校退場，但是他非常優秀，他能夠轉任到高職；或者產業在R&D；或者他在產業有Master's 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Fungi比較大的代工也部分在美國那但是他是以8吋廠為主所以我們還在這個還要看他相對的競爭值我們現在"},{"start":172.957,"end":188.317,"text":"今天早上我其实发了一些讯息给到相关的协会我们希望尽快的请他们帮我们收集出来那这个影响应该是非常小因为Global Foundry对跟台厂之间没有那么强的竞争我觉得因为今天川普已经在"},{"start":189.477,"end":204.245,"text":"这个台湾时间凌晨四点半做了这样的一个宣布就是说半导体要开征百分之百的关税除非你是在美国设厂我想他今天会讲出这个大概也差不多是这个方向了对还有承诺在美国设厂"},{"start":204.485,"end":229.608,"text":"对 就是说在美国设厂可能就排除在这之外那我必须说是不是因为这个样子所以其实在昨天川普他有说了一个所谓台积电要再投资3000亿美元那当然台积电本身已经有说了他们目前还是维持在1650亿美元这样的一个标准"},{"start":230.407,"end":245.553,"text":"那是不是会因为川普今天早上四点半所做的这个百分之百关税的一个问题而造成台积电在整个投资的一个范围会扩大会不会是这个样子"},{"start":246.289,"end":260.418,"text":"這個我們還是要尊重台積電的看法那但是我的經驗是這樣子這個沒有訂單他也不會去有訂單他才會去這是他必須對他的股東負責因為他是一個上市公司"},{"start":261.238,"end":289.811,"text":"所以呢台積電應該會衡量這些因素可是競爭力啊如果說他把這樣子投資他說的如果在美國市場可以排除在百分之百關稅的一個部分嘛會不會是在這樣的一個競爭力的條件之下而讓台積電有所轉移其實大家擔心的是這個狀況我的瞭解台積電輸美的比例非常低啦因為他大概在1%出頭而已啦那所以沒有那麼大的"},{"start":291.398,"end":317.826,"text":"它大部分都出到了组装厂去所以主委你这个才是关键因为现在台积电是一个我们台湾的护国神山大家所担心的是说会不会因为这样的一个变动关税的调整而让台积电在经营的层面当中有所改变可是如果依照主委所说的其实它本身"},{"start":318.939,"end":344.379,"text":"它鎖在這個區塊影響是很少的目前是這樣的對啊 目前嘛可是跟著半導體開徵百分之百關稅的這個部分會不會有所變動大家擔心的是這個目前影響很少可是未來因為川普對半導體開徵百分之百關稅之後"},{"start":345.834,"end":364.8,"text":"然後在競爭力的條件會有沒有可能有轉移他現在因為他台積電其實有一個8吋廠在阿勒岡州加上先進製程所以他應該比他的競爭對手更佔優勢目前的狀態反而是他的優勢比較高"},{"start":366.792,"end":392.439,"text":"所以我覺得主委我們應該不是在於三千億兩千億一千六百五十億而是你要把我們目前對於產業別的分析告訴民眾我覺得重點兩千億三千億一千六百五十億我覺得這是一個數字可是這個數字會影響人民的信心畢竟台積電是護國神山"},{"start":395.121,"end":406.739,"text":"但是如果依照主委所说的依照目前台积电它的整个经营方式它其实在美国这个区块是竞争力跟各方面是影响比较少"},{"start":407.754,"end":424.541,"text":"如果是這樣的話 那當然他就不會思考我要去投注三千億美元我要去投注多少的一個增加資本額的一個部分所以我覺得應該把這個我們在整個產業的一個投資狀況跟發展狀況還有分佈狀況跟民眾說清楚否則你糾結在這個數字 人民會搞不清楚"},{"start":433.24,"end":456.047,"text":"好像說在這一波的一個關稅當中是不是連我們護國神山都要過去其實不是不是的對嘛 其實不是目前應該只有差不多6%對嘛 其實不是嘛所以如果6%跟大家腦袋裡面所想是不是哇 三千億美元多少美元過去那台灣怎麼辦所以是不是的"},{"start":456.747,"end":479.896,"text":"我覺得我們要去講的是我們目前在針對產業當然投不投資是台積電本身他們在整個商業經營的一個範疇當中他們的思考可是我們政府是可以我們整個半導體發展的區塊我們來做分析目前就是6%"},{"start":481.349,"end":509.037,"text":"產能的部分這個產能講的是2029年的產能對 產能的部分但2029年不是現在現在它輸美的部分只有在1%上下那這個影響非常小的那未來產能擴大之後因為主要有一些組裝廠也會在墨西哥跟德州那大概是這樣的一個狀態所以目前就是一person目前 對那在整個"},{"start":510.623,"end":531.974,"text":"所有的區塊做調整之後這個所謂未來的投資1650億美元增加之後我們所有看到的2029年可能影響到6%對 可是它這整個還很久因為2029年是第三場的量產2028年是四產"},{"start":534.649,"end":555.048,"text":"所以依照主委所分析的基本上它的整个影响的程度其实没有我们想象的那么多那么大范围那么广因为它是全球布局的一个概念台积业还是一个企业它还是以企业经营为核心因为它还要对股东负责"},{"start":556.298,"end":583.424,"text":"他的資金來源是從他的股東來的那他在股市上市公司他必須要很謹慎而且很負責的去面對所以主委我覺得你今天這個講法才能真正的讓台灣人民安心否則一直我們講的護國神山然後不斷的訊息來的是說他的投資在美國投資會增加是不是我們所有的主要的"},{"start":584.864,"end":601.494,"text":"主要的部分都會往美國來移但並不是嘛對 它其實現在有八個廠要建設或是未建設在台灣那遠比美國多很多啦所以我覺得我們要把這個最關鍵的講出來然後主委我要再問一下"},{"start":604.936,"end":624.412,"text":"這一波在美國關稅的部分其實對台南兩個部分影響最多就是蝴蝶蘭跟台灣貂這兩個是在我們所有的產業其實市占率台南是最多的所以在這個部分到底我們要怎麼做"},{"start":626.37,"end":650.448,"text":"這個部分我們有一個短期因應方案由農業部主政提出來就是我們在我們編列的900多億來協助產業跟農業那這個是在我們短期協助的方向那中長期的部分當然我們還是會慢慢的去分散市場但短期的應急我們現在是用資金來協助業者度過當前的問題"},{"start":651.857,"end":658.408,"text":"尤其今天早上行政院院長有提到一個叫投資台灣三大方案的2.0版"},{"start":660.182,"end":689.251,"text":"他要引資1.2兆這個部分裡面有一個叫貸款額度要新增貸款額度來讓企業能夠增加他的一個投資量跟他的穩定性主委這個很重要每一次都是我們有方案但是銀行端的配合度並沒有那麼好所以如果我們真的要讓他百分之百達到效果銀行端的部分你們要去溝通好"},{"start":690.171,"end":715.326,"text":"否則真正想用的用不到他們為了要讓你們看美化數字然後去拜託那個那個可能不需要貸款的人去貸然後真正需要貸的 貸不到我覺得這個部分是每次只要我們有這個投資方案我們得到基層的這些企業最大的反應所以我在這裡提醒一下我們的主委"},{"start":715.806,"end":724.96,"text":"我們反映給那個經管會跟對這個部分你們既然要跨部會這個都跨部會你們跨部會在處理的時候這是很重要的謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":248,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時53分）謝謝召委，是不是請主委？"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：今天川普總統在臺灣凌晨4點半發布了這個消息，大家原本以為是下個禮拜，可是他提早把這樣的聲音丟出來。這個聲音丟出來之後，主委，你認為對於臺灣的半導體產業有什麼影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：臺灣半導體產業大部分的晶片是輸到組裝廠去，大部分不在美國，只有少部分。目前我們看到去年是74億美金，74億美金如果扣掉台積電，再把中美晶在美國也有廠扣下來的話，應該不到60億美金，在接近60億美金的數字，占我們出口的總額應該是1.12%。"],["陳委員亭妃：1.12%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你認為它的衝擊力呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們大概可以用60億美金來看它的衝擊，可是事實上並沒有那麼高，原因我解釋一下，就是除了我們剛剛講的在美國有廠的廠商之外，現在還有人是跟Intel合作，也是可以跟Intel談合作，另外很明顯有建廠跟併購兩種，有些企業也可以進行併購而快速地進去，只要有承諾就可以，沒有實現就要再退這段期間的關稅。所以大的廠應該會有一些布局跟動作，跟我們「根留臺灣，布局全球」的政策是一樣，我們會支持它。另外，我們在德州也正在努力幫大家爭取零州稅的機會，目前至少州長對我們是很支持的，這些都開始在布局。","我們之前跟廠商開會的時候，大部分的廠商都說：第一個，他們其實可全球布局；第二個，那時多數廠商表達只要競爭對手也是課一樣的稅，他們的競爭力就還是一樣的，所以他們認為只要是一樣，就沒有很大的差異。現在我們在評估的是GlobalFoundries，GlobalFoundries比較大的代工有一部分在美國，但它是以8吋廠為主，這個部分還要看它相對的競爭者。今天早上我發了一些訊息給相關的協會，請他們儘快幫我們蒐集這個部分的資料，這個影響應該是非常小，GlobalFoundries跟臺廠之間沒有那麼強的競爭，因為我們大部分是以12吋廠為主。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為川普今天已經在臺灣時間凌晨4點半做了這樣的宣布，就是半導體要開徵100%的關稅，除非是在美國設廠，我想他今天會講出這個，大概也差不多是這個方向了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，還有承諾在美國設廠。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，就是在美國設廠，可能就排除在這之外。是不是因為這個樣子，所以昨天川普說台積電要再投資3,000億美元？當然台積電已經說目前還是維持在1,650億美元的標準，但是不是會因為川普今天早上4點半所宣布的這一個100%關稅的問題，而造成台積電在整個投資的範圍擴大，會不會是這個樣子？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分還是要尊重台積電的看法，但是我的經驗是這樣子，沒有訂單它也不會去，有訂單它才會去。它必須對股東負責，因為它是一個上市公司，所以台積電應該會衡量這些因素來作決定。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是競爭力啊！如果它這樣子投資，在美國設廠可以排除100%關稅，會不會在這樣的競爭力條件之下，而讓台積電有所轉移？其實大家擔心的是這個狀況。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的瞭解是台積電輸美的比例非常低，大概在1%出頭而已，所以沒有那麼大的……大部分都出貨到組裝廠去，所以……"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，你說的這個才是關鍵，因為現在台積電是臺灣的護國神山，大家所擔心的是會不會因為這樣的變動、關稅的調整，而讓台積電在經營的層面當中有所改變，可是如果依照主委所說的，其實它本身所在這個區塊影響是很少的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是這樣的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！目前嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是跟著半導體開徵100%關稅的這個部分會不會有所變動？大家擔心的是這個。目前影響很少，可是未來因為川普對半導體開徵100%關稅之後，在競爭力的條件下，有沒有可能轉移？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電有一個8吋廠在奧勒岡州，再加上先進製程，所以應該比它的競爭對手更占優勢，目前的狀態反而是它的優勢比較高。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，我們應該不是在於3,000億、2,000億、1,650億，而是你要把我們目前對於產業別的分析告訴民眾。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得重點是，2,000億、3,000億、1,650億，這只是一個數字，可是這個數字會影響人民的信心，畢竟台積電是護國神山，但是如果如主委所說的，依照目前台積電的整個經營方式，其實它在美國這個區塊，競爭力跟各方面是影響比較少，如果是這樣的話，那當然它就不會思考說我要去投注3,000億美元、我要去投注多少增加資本額的部分。所以我覺得，應該把我們在整個產業的投資、發展狀況還有分布狀況跟民眾說清楚，否則你糾結在這個數字，人民會搞不清楚，好像說在這一波關稅當中，是不是連我們護國神山都要過去？其實不是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛！其實不是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前應該只有差不多6%。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，其實不是嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：嗯。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以如果6%跟大家腦袋裡面所想的是不是……哇！3,000億美元、多少美元過去，那臺灣怎麼辦？不是的。我覺得我們要去講的是，我們目前針對產業，當然投不投資是台積電本身在整個商業經營的範疇當中他們的思考，可是政府是可以就整個半導體發展的區塊來做分析，目前就是6%嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：產能的部分，可是……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，產能的部分嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個產能講的是2029年的產能。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，產能的部分。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：2029年，不是現在喔！"],["陳委員亭妃：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在它輸美的部分只有在1%上下，這個影響非常小。未來產能擴大之後，因為主要有一些組裝廠也會在墨西哥跟德州，大概是這樣的一個狀態。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以目前就是1%，目前嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：在所有的區塊做調整之後，這個所謂未來的投資，1,650億美元增加之後，我們所有看到的，2029年可能影響到6%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，可是這整個還要很久，因為2029年是第三廠的量產，2028年是四廠。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以依照主委所分析的，基本上它整個影響的程度其實沒有我們想像的那麼多、那麼大、範圍那麼廣，因為它是全球布局的一個概念。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電還是一個企業，它還是以企業經營為核心，因為它還要對股東負責，它的資金來源是從股東來的，股市上市公司必須要很謹慎而且很負責地去面對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以主委，我覺得你今天這個講法才能真正讓臺灣人民安心，否則一直……我們講的護國神山，然後不斷地有訊息說它在美國投資會增加，是不是我們所有主要的部分都會往美國移，並不是嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，其實現在它有8個廠要建設或者是未建設的在臺灣。"],["陳委員亭妃：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：遠比美國多了很多。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我覺得我們要把這個最關鍵的講出來。然後主委，我要再問一下，這一波在美國關稅的部分，其實對臺灣、對臺南，有兩個部分影響最多，就是蝴蝶蘭跟臺灣鯛。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：嗯。"],["陳委員亭妃：這兩個在我們所有的產業，其實市占率上臺南是最多的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以在這個部分，到底我們要怎麼做？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分我們有一個短期因應方案，由農業部主政提出來，就是在我們編列的九百多億來協助產業跟農業，這個是我們短期協助的方向。中長期的部分，當然我們還是會慢慢地分散市場，但短期的應急我們現在是用資金來協助業者渡過當前的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：尤其今天早上行政院院長提到一個叫「投資臺灣三大方案2.0」，他要引資1.2兆，這部分裡面有一個叫貸款額度，要新增貸款額度，讓企業能夠增加它的投資量跟穩定性。主委，這個很重要喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：每一次都是我們有方案，但銀行端的配合度並沒那麼好。所以如果我們真的要讓它百分之百達到效果，銀行端的部分你們要去溝通好，否則真正想用的用不到，他們為了要讓你們看美化數字，去拜託可能不需要貸款的人去貸，然後真正需要貸的貸不到。我覺得這部分是每一次只要有這個投資方案，我們得到基層這些企業的最大反映，所以我在這裡提醒一下主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們反映給金管會跟經濟部。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，你們既然要跨部會，這個都是跨部會，你們跨部會在處理的時候，這是很重要的，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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今天中午正式就會生效 台美的部分雖然我們現在是暫時性的 中午生效20%的部分先生效 其實其他國家也都是這樣因為我們現在談的叫做暫時性的關稅 表示接下來還會繼續談"},{"start":23.434,"end":38.127,"text":"什麼時候會有最後筆定的一個時間這個是談判代表跟院在談但是我有被徵詢一些議題所以我很確定他還在進行中還在談判當中當然我們希望後面還會再講但是"},{"start":43.231,"end":58.974,"text":"今天因為中午就開始生效了所以相關的因應措施跟準備其實也都一定要啟動了啦因為這個一旦生效馬上就直接會有相關的影響就會產生那我先確定一下因為早上最早的消息知道就是"},{"start":60.415,"end":79.608,"text":"半導體的部分當然關稅是百分之百但是他也有提到如果你有去投資的計畫或即將投資的話那就零就是零那台積電這樣看來是零因為台積電已經在美國做投資所以台積電目前看起來其實是會是零的部分這對台灣來說當然是一個好的消息對因為他的比重比較大"},{"start":81.269,"end":97.621,"text":"那這個台積電因為我們看了有幾個廠都在進行 未來也在投資但是還有其他的部分因為台灣跟美國我們畢竟還是前十大的貿易國那從去年來看的話台美之間的貿易順差"},{"start":100.223,"end":122.434,"text":"還是前六大 第六大所以其實這個問題顯然我們必須跟美國也做一個好的處理我想川普也會要求跟台灣進行處理那我們看我們周邊的其實像南韓 像日本他們大概都已經初步談定了那裡面大概形式上一個是投資像南韓是投資美國3500億美金那像日本是投資5500億美金"},{"start":128.857,"end":143.412,"text":"那台灣是不是也會朝這個方向在進行如果就川普這兩天的訊息出來的話這個我不清楚但是就我來看我們的GDP的種子是低於南韓的那"},{"start":147.688,"end":174.859,"text":"這個如果用GDP比重來看投資的話理論上台灣的投資應該還是不可能比高過這些國家啦對 如果照這樣來看以日本台灣南韓來看的話其實我們已經也盡了相當大的一個努力了在整個平衡整個貿易的逆差的部分做了相當大的一個努力那所以接下來如果台灣有更多的一些投資範疇看來很多不管是從包括"},{"start":176.079,"end":188.194,"text":"汽車甚至半導體慢慢抵定了之後包括汽車甚至於投資不管是天然氣或投資其他的部分的話那有機會經過這樣的方式的話讓台灣的關稅有機會再降低嗎主委怎麼看"},{"start":189.229,"end":211.191,"text":"我是認為很有機會的原因是第一個我們台灣代表處其實大家準備得非常充分那第二個事情是這些團隊也蠻優秀的所以我認為應該會有很好的結果那如果按照日美跟韓美之間的看法的話他們是會先降到一個中間暫時性關稅再往下"},{"start":212.853,"end":234.386,"text":"那我們看起來我們的路徑也在接近也正在一個中間路徑所以台灣的趨勢也是照這樣從32到20再20有可能再往下降也許降到類似15日韓越南都是這樣的路徑對那如果是15的話至少在日本跟南韓之間的話但大家的就站這個比較一樣的一個基礎點上面去競爭對台灣的衝擊相對上就會比較小"},{"start":238.548,"end":245.637,"text":"所以我們大概是朝這個目標在努力那諸位看起來是樂觀的朝樂觀的方向在看待我們是這樣我們準備的時候風險角度不能樂觀我們就要有版本但是談判結果我們是朝樂觀方向看"},{"start":253.866,"end":280.419,"text":"好 也一定要朝這個方向去做努力啦這也必然是那另外當然有些擔憂的是息產地的問題啦其實像包括像印尼、越南等等其實都有息產地這個台灣也必須要做萬全的一些準備啦因為一旦被認定為你是在息產地的話那這個大概就會被又被拉高起來這個部分我想政府應該都做了萬全的準備這個經濟部已經做了做了一些措施嘛然後進行比較大的管控"},{"start":282.281,"end":306.437,"text":"所以我了解經濟部是好我也希望國發會持續的關注這樣因為畢竟它影響到國家整體的未來的競爭力那國發會站在整個更更高的一個高度上面其實要去不斷去控管跟注意這樣的一個事項那其實台美這6年來其實增加了10倍啦其實確實增長的速度相當快那所以這個也大概也是我們要去面臨的問題啦一年將近接近700億"},{"start":309.479,"end":332.034,"text":"700億這樣的一個這個貿易的順差我們順差他們是逆差所以這個也是台灣一定要去面對的問題所以我想這個也希望後續的談判結果能夠跟一方面是對台灣的產業的衝擊降到最低那一方面也希望台美的關係更加的穩固我想這是同樣努力的一個目標"},{"start":333.312,"end":354.859,"text":"主委應該是朝這樣的看法吧是的好我們向你鼓勵那另外是我想問一下那接下來其實我們談判即將底定了那我們現在處理的大概是用930億的方式來做那剛剛其實主委提到這個原先最早的規劃就用930億那如果以現在這樣狀況下"},{"start":356.379,"end":378.101,"text":"會再增加嗎?就是對於整個產業的支持跟照顧跟協助部分會再做一些增加嗎?以現在來看,因為當時是以現在來看應該這個是會滾動式調整那現在來看在我們經濟能力上這個應該是可以先往前走應該是推動應該是夠了但是還要看後面的變動"},{"start":379.763,"end":394.493,"text":"現在暫定用930億來推啦但是後面隨時在做滾動式的檢討但如果隨時有需要的時候我們隨時可以再來做追加的部分然後給予尤其我們有很大的金額是在支持它出貨的成本"},{"start":395.673,"end":420.595,"text":"那因為他需要被支持 那那個出貨量越大 我們的支持金額就會往上拉嘛這個隨著談判的結果出來之後 越來越清楚的出來之後那當然就會有更明確的一些那個 就是現在這樣子做 這樣子來列但是將來談判結果更明確的出來之後 我們當然就有更明確的一些做法那當然還不足 還不夠的部分"},{"start":421.235,"end":444.291,"text":"政府也持續我們會再來調整我想政府挺企業這件事情是沒有問題的這個是絕對沒有問題而且政府挺農漁民這件事情也是沒有問題這是絕對的所以我想這樣的態度至少讓國人放心就是說我們努力的談到最好的結果但是談完之後如果有任何受到影響的產業那政府也絕對會挺相關的產業跟農漁民到底這裡面除了這個產業農業經濟的產業以外還有就是這個穩定就業的部分"},{"start":450.995,"end":464.862,"text":"對 這個都要持續來進行這也是政府的主要目的那我再問那裡面我看到報告裡面就是政府還是會維持在今年GDP成長3%這樣的一個目標嗎是不是對 現在是很有信心的應該沒有太大問題因為上半年看起來狀況是相當的不錯啦"},{"start":468.604,"end":491.636,"text":"對 然後下半年主要有兩個支柱會產生一個是手機的拉貨槽第二個是那個AI那個這個GP300的新model的出貨這兩塊都會帶動那我們希望國發會跟各部會密切的注意那我們來看一下燈號的部分其實是到五月六月其實已經進入到了綠燈所以在景氣上面 主委擔憂嗎 這樣的狀況"},{"start":493.597,"end":519.734,"text":"現在景氣狀況是進入我們稱為穩定期綠燈是穩定期那我們是審慎的去規劃後面所以我們才會有擴大內需希望來推動擴大內需來把下半年如果有什麼比較大的變化的話可以所以下半年的景氣狀況主委怎麼看待下半年景氣其實是一個值得關注就是我們還是很謹慎去觀察"},{"start":521.212,"end":543.878,"text":"那趨勢上呢就國發會的你們的評估跟判斷呢因為你們評估判斷會影響到怎麼樣去用投入這些相關的資源趨勢上應該會跟去年接近啦就是說會比上半年差但跟去年接近就是說呃等於是成長力道相較於去年大概會在1 1或1 1在或是一點多的一個狀況"},{"start":545.555,"end":566.514,"text":"好 我們希望整個密切注意這樣一個狀況好不好也請國防會持續的在關注所以會相較下半年 去年下半年有微幅成長就沒有那麼大幅度的我們現在這個是已經是大概應該是全世界最好的上半年對 但是下半年部分還是要請持續的關注這樣一個狀況好 謝謝主委 辛苦了謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時43分）好，謝謝主席。請劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我先請教一個問題，今天中午就會正式生效嘛！臺美的部分，雖然我們現在是暫時性的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，暫時關稅會生效。"],["賴委員瑞隆：中午生效嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，中午生效。"],["賴委員瑞隆：20%的部分先生效了嘛！包括其他國家也都是這樣。因為我們現在談的叫做暫時性關稅，表示接下來還會繼續談，什麼時候會有最後底定的時間？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是談判代表跟院在談啦！但是我們有被徵詢一些議題，所以我很確定他們還在進行中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就還在談判當中啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然我們希望後面還會再降啦！但是因為今天中午就開始生效了，所以相關的因應措施跟準備，其實也都一定要啟動了啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為這一旦生效，馬上就直接有相關的影響會產生。我先確定一下，因為早上最早的消息是半導體的部分，當然關稅是100%，但是他也有提到，如果你有去投資的計畫或即將投資的話，那就是「零」啦！台積電這樣看來是零，因為台積電已經在美國做投資嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以台積電目前看起來其實會是零的部分嘛！這對於臺灣來說，當然是一個好的消息。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為它的比重比較大。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為我們看了台積電有幾個廠都在進行，包括未來在投資的，但是還有其他的部分，因為臺灣跟美國，我們畢竟還是前十大的貿易國，從去年來看的話，臺美之間的貿易順差，還是第六大啦！所以其實這個問題，顯然我們也必須跟美國做一個好的處理，我想川普也會要求跟臺灣這邊做處理。我們看我們周邊的國家，像南韓、日本，他們大概都已經初步談定了啦！裡面大概形式上，一個是投資，像南韓是投資美國3,500億美金，像日本是投資5,500億美金，臺灣是不是也會朝這個方向在進行？如果就川普這兩天釋放出來的訊息的話。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我不清楚，但是就我來看，我們的GDP總值是低於南韓的。如果用GDP比重來看投資的話，理論上臺灣的投資應該還是不可能高過這些國家啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，如果以日本、臺灣、南韓來看的話，其實我們也已經盡了相當大的努力了，在平衡整個貿易逆差的部分做了相當的努力。所以接下來如果臺灣有更多的投資方案，其實看來很多，從汽車、半導體慢慢底定了之後，甚至投資，不管是天然氣或其他的部分，經過這樣的方式，有機會讓臺灣的關稅再降低嗎？主委怎麼看？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認為很有機會的原因是：第一個，我們談判代表處，其實大家準備得非常充分啦！第二個，這些團隊也滿優秀的，所以我認為應該會有很好的結果。如果按照日美跟韓美之間的看法的話，他們是會先降到一個中間的暫時性關稅再往下，看起來我們的路徑也正在一個中間的暫時性關稅。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以臺灣的趨勢也是照這樣，從32%到20%，20%有可能再往下降，也許降到類似15%這樣，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：日、韓、越南都是這樣的路徑。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，如果是15%的話，至少在日本跟南韓之間的話，大家就站在比較一樣的基礎點上競爭啦！這樣對臺灣的衝擊相對上就會比較小一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們大概還是朝這個目標在努力，主委看起來是樂觀啦！朝樂觀的方向在看。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們是這樣啦！我們準備的時候，以風險的角度不能樂觀啦！我們就要有版本。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對於談判的結果，我們是朝樂觀方向看。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，也一定要朝這個方向去做努力啦！這是必然的。另外，當然有些擔憂的是洗產地的問題，其實包括像印尼、越南等等，都有洗產地的問題，這個臺灣也必須要做一些萬全的準備啦！因為一旦被認定為是在洗產地的話，關稅大概就會又被拉高起來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：針對這個部分，我想政府應該都做了萬全的準備。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個經濟部已經做了一些措施嘛！有進行比較大的管控，所以就我了解經濟部是這樣做的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我也希望國發會持續的關注，因為畢竟它影響到未來國家整體的競爭力，國發會站在更高的高度上面，其實要不斷去控管跟注意這樣的一個事項啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：臺美貿易順差這6年來增加了10倍啦！確實增長的速度相當快，所以這大概也是我們要去面臨的問題，一年將近700億的貿易順差，我們是順差，他們是逆差，所以這也是臺灣一定要去面對的問題啦！我希望後續的談判結果能夠跟……一方面是對臺灣的產業衝擊降到最低，另一方面也希望臺美的關係更加的穩固啦！我想這是同樣要努力的目標。主委應該也是朝這樣的看法吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們希望一起努力啦！另外，我想請教一下，接下來我們談判即將底定了，我們現在大概是用930億的方式來做，剛剛其實主委也提到這個原先最早的規劃就是用930億，如果以現在這樣的狀況，會再增加嗎？就是對於整個產業的支持、照顧跟協助的部分，會再做一些增加嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以現在來看，應該會是滾動式調整啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在來看在我們的經濟能力，應該是可以先往前走，推動應該是夠的，但是還是要看後續的變動。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，現在暫定用930億來推，後面隨時再做滾動式的檢討，但如果有需要，隨時可以再做追加的部分，然後給予……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，尤其我們有很大的金額是在支持它的出貨成本，因為它需要被支持，出貨量越大，支持的金額就會往上拉。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個隨著談判的結果越來越清楚之後，當然就會更明確一些，就是現在是這樣子做、這樣子列，但是將來談判結果更明確之後，就有更明確的一些做法。當然還不足、還不夠的部分，政府也會持續……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會再來調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：政府挺企業這件事情是沒有問題的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個是絕對沒有問題的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：而且政府挺農、漁民這件事情也是沒有問題的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是絕對的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣的態度至少讓國人放心啦！就是我們努力地談到最好的結果，但是談完之後，如果有任何產業受到影響，政府也絕對會挺相關的產業跟農、漁民到底。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這裡面除了農業經濟的產業以外，還有穩定就業的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個都要持續進行，這也是政府的主要目的。我看到報告裡面，政府今年還是會維持GDP成長3%的目標，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，現在是很有信心啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：很有信心嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該沒太大的問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為上半年看起來狀況是相當的不錯。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，然後下半年主要有兩個支柱會產生，一個是手機的拉貨潮，第二個是AI，GB300新model的出貨，這兩塊都會帶動。"],["賴委員瑞隆：希望國發會跟各部會密切的注意。我們來看一下燈號的部分，到5月、6月其實已經進入綠燈，所以在景氣上面這樣的狀況，主委擔憂嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：現在景氣的狀況是進入穩定期，綠燈是穩定期，我們是審慎地去規劃後面，所以才會希望來推動擴大內需，如果下半年有什麼比較大的變化，可以把……"],["賴委員瑞隆：下半年的景氣狀況，主委怎麼看待？怎麼預估？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：下半年景氣其實是值得關注的，我們還是會很謹慎去觀察，應該……"],["賴委員瑞隆：趨勢上呢？就國發會的評估跟判斷呢？因為你們的評估判斷會影響到怎麼樣投入這些相關的資源。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：趨勢上應該會跟去年接近，就是會比上半年差，但跟去年接近，也就是成長力道相較於去年，大概會在1或一點多。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望密切注意這整個狀況，好不好？也請國發會持續關注。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以相較於去年下半年有微幅成長，但就是沒有那麼大的幅度，我們現在大概已經是全世界最好的上半年。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是下半年的部分還是請持續地關注這樣子的狀況。謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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到底還有沒有繼續再談 繼續談的空間在哪裡包括川普在今天的清晨 台灣的時間清晨講到要對半導體開徵100%的關稅 除非在美設廠這一句是很重要 很多的媒體只有講前面一段 就是要對半導體開徵100%"},{"start":159.051,"end":178.055,"text":"但是在美設廠這一件事情是很重要所以這個如果整個語句完整來看的話對於台積電的影響是什麼台積電看起來應該是沒有影響因為台積電未來是要在美國設廠但是對於台灣其他的半導體的業者來說"},{"start":180.379,"end":194.365,"text":"可能會有影響那會不會加劇他們往美國去投資的這個方向你們的評估報告裡頭有沒有包含這個部分主委我讓你說明一下這個部分其實現在台"},{"start":195.846,"end":212.404,"text":"它是設廠跟承諾設廠那我們現在有幾種設廠方式以台積電是直接去建廠像中美金是併購透過併購在德州另外我們也看到聯電跟Intel有一些合作案"},{"start":213.505,"end":241.161,"text":"我的經驗他也可以透過這個合作的方式來取得關稅的界面對 去合作那剩下的部分要有承諾那承諾的部分就看大家但是我們之前曾經跟這些廠商做過一次座談他們認為台灣的競爭力是夠強的那如果今天大家都在一樣的關稅基礎下以現在來看是大家都在100億的情況下其實大家的競爭是一致的"},{"start":241.972,"end":257.417,"text":"所以你認為台灣的競爭力是夠強所以不用擔心這個所謂現在的半導體開徵100%對我認為第一名如果都擔心第二名就會害怕好主委但是我想要更進一步請教根據美國的這個貿易擴張法第232條這個"},{"start":262.299,"end":286.097,"text":"你雖然現在講說我們的半導體業者其實是不用擔心但是其他跟這個所謂的美國國安或者是產業安全有相關的這一些產業甚至或者是有裝有晶片的產品未來是不是都有可能被課到稅所以這個有可能包含筆電伺服器手機網通設備網路通訊設備跟家電等等"},{"start":289.179,"end":302.872,"text":"這一些有沒有可能會在232條的這個限制之下未來他有可能被課到高的這個關稅那就這個部分政府有什麼因應的措施或者是你們有什麼研判這個部分的確"},{"start":305.615,"end":330.055,"text":"這幾個現在是列在232還沒有公告所以我們現在做了兩個方案一個是短期短期緊急的時候只能像進急診室一樣我們是應急的方案我目前是編列了951的特別預算希望能夠通過但是我個人的看法如果這個再加劇到含晶片之終端設備的話那我們可能要擴大我們的特別預算"},{"start":331.275,"end":353.046,"text":"所以你說擴大特別預算是擴大我們的這個產業韌性的這個條例的預算嗎那第二個部分是中長期的部分中長期的部分就是當產業面臨這個就要開始進行佈局的轉型那我們現在國家政策本來就希望例如台灣這個佈局全球那我們也會協助廠商盡量去做全球的佈局去分散它的風險或者是降低它的風險"},{"start":353.946,"end":381.896,"text":"那我們現在也有一個完整的計畫在已經準備好了那我們可以有實時公告我們已經送抱怨了所以在短期、中期、長期我們目前是有因應的做法那但是會不會這個會不會有影響呢還是要影響有多少還是要看最後的公告那它現在是沒有公告因為它這裡面牽扯兩件事情這幾個產品是在豁免清單就在WTO豁免清單裡面"},{"start":382.876,"end":410.705,"text":"那在232裡面他會怎麼因應這還是一個所以這個還是很大的不確定性所以那你們有沒有設定一個底線當然我知道在談判的過程裡頭很多的底線是不能現在對外說那你們有沒有設定一個什麼樣的底線或者是說找這一些廠商這一些業者來大家共同討論一下聽一下他們的心聲他們在現在面臨到這樣未來有可能被課稅或者是說"},{"start":411.465,"end":428.727,"text":"整體現在的這個關稅的衝擊狀態之下政府有沒有充分的了解掌握廠商的心聲甚至我們有沒有設下一個什麼樣的底線是在跟美方在做談判的時候雙方其實是可以"},{"start":429.764,"end":458.62,"text":"是的有的我們有抓住至少對於我們自己廠商的保護那個底線有沒有抓住有的那大部分以SERVER來講大部分的廠商都是比較大型的那我們可以看到在上半年我們面對到墨西哥我們成長了200%多那因為主要是大家的SERVER廠現在放在墨西哥那主要是USDNA那可以得到保障那第二個部分是我的了解大家現在開始往達拉斯開始在進行佈局"},{"start":459.72,"end":478.439,"text":"那因為這樣的關係經濟部也去談了那目前在談什麼呢 談希望能夠讓台商在達拉斯德州的布局裡面得以免週稅那目前是得到州長的回應那眾議院也有通過 現在是等他的參議院 州參議院通過"},{"start":479.219,"end":504.974,"text":"所以這些我們都積極在協助大家往這條路走那中小型的企業目前他們的想法是因為它規模比較小那去的話是不是能變成一個整合型的公司就產業控股公司過去那這樣的話本來這種小公司要單獨去面對政府會很麻煩那合併成一家公司公司變成部門的話就比較容易或是集團那所以呢我們也修訂了這個企業併購法"},{"start":506.495,"end":522.91,"text":"讓這些廠商在併購的過程中沒有成本增加在五年的寬限期本來是併購會要繳稅那現在併購沒有繳稅所以他們可以進行合併然後到海外發展因為他需要比較大的資本所以這些我們都有做好規劃跟業者都溝通過"},{"start":523.462,"end":535.414,"text":"主委我再問一個小問題那至於藥品呢生技產業有沒有列入你們的保護清單裡頭現在藥品要被課到未來有可能會被課到250%的稅那生技生技的這個這個生技的產業"},{"start":539.137,"end":554.468,"text":"有沒有列入你們的所謂的保護清單裡頭就生技的部分因為我們剛剛一直談的大概都是跟半導體有關生技產業的部分呢我們的短中期跟我剛才談的我們免週稅這些都是沒有產業的限制的"},{"start":554.968,"end":583.654,"text":"都是沒有產業限制的我們是所有的產業都要保護啦所以我們所有的產業都把它納入那至於未來可能會被課高關稅的部分其實你的保護力道或者是你的輔導力道應該是要再更加強而且我們已經有一個清單以您提的這個製藥業來講有哪些在美國有佈局的我們現在清單都在手上那有一些沒有的它的外銷比重比例這個經濟部也都整理出來了好"},{"start":584.634,"end":609.148,"text":"那目前都在手上好主委因為我的時間已經到我也不要耽誤大家太多時間但是我想國發會在對於整個在關稅的談判的這個過程裡面所有的追蹤管考跟對於國內產業經濟的衝擊我想還是一直要不斷的滾動性的去修正喔所以你們今天來的這一份報告其實不叫關稅抵定之後的報告因為現在關稅還沒抵定"},{"start":610.649,"end":628.962,"text":"真的抵定之後的衝擊包括內容實質的內容是什麼到時候真的可能還是需要國發會再來到立法院裡頭再做更進一步詳盡的報告因為那個時候其實談判如果都確實結束之後就沒有什麼保密的條款在裡頭了其實國發會更應該開誠布公的讓"},{"start":632.124,"end":650.281,"text":"國內的業者也好或者是國內的整體的產業都要很清楚的知道政府到底能夠為我們做一些什麼事情能夠保護我們的產業到什麼樣的程度或者是能夠協助台灣的產業到什麼樣的程度我覺得那個部分可能要請國發會都要隨時密切的掌控好不好好的好 謝謝現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢問"},{"start":662.434,"end":662.935,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請那個劉書偉劉書偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":130,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時32分）謝謝主席，請一下國發會主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：邱委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委早。主委，您今天準備的報告內容，我不曉得你有沒有看一下它的題目是什麼，今天主席排定的議程題目是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：談的是經濟未來的景氣狀況。"],["邱委員議瑩：你看到的是後面，我看的是前面，它的主軸是美國對等關稅底定之後。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前還沒有底定。"],["邱委員議瑩：是嘛，所以你這份報告內容寫的是底定之後，對於臺灣未來的景氣跟全球布局的規劃，對不對？你剛剛一直在講，剛剛楊瓊瓔委員一直問你，你一直講關稅還沒有談定，確實關稅是還沒有談定，所以在關稅還沒有談定之前，你今天報告內容的國內整個局勢，跟關稅底定之後的報告內容會有什麼差異？我讓你補充說明一下，因為現在這個題目設定是在關稅底定之後的發展跟規劃，跟關稅還沒有談定之前會有什麼差別？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我認為底定之後，所有的景氣跟數字會更好。"],["邱委員議瑩：你認為關稅底定之後，景氣跟數字會更好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：你為什麼會有這樣的信心？主委，我想要談一下，因為大家都對於臺灣的關稅能夠降到多少有非常高的期待，從4月份美國總統講32%，一直到上個禮拜的20%，但是日、韓是15%，所以有很多在野黨的委員，或者是有很多人士就來批評說臺灣談的成績並不好，但是我們現在告訴大家，這個是暫時性的，很多人認為這個是臺灣搪塞的、政府搪塞的語言，所以它到底是不是暫時性？到底還有沒有繼續再談？繼續談的空間在哪裡？包括川普在今天的清晨、臺灣時間的清晨講到要對半導體開徵100%的關稅，除非在美設廠，這一句是很重要的，很多媒體只有講前面一段，就是要對半導體開徵100%，但是在美設廠這一件事情是很重要的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還有承諾設廠。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以如果整個語句完整來看的話，對於台積電的影響是什麼？看起來台積電應該是沒有影響。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前是沒有影響。"],["邱委員議瑩：因為台積電未來是要在美國設廠。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：已經設廠了。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是對於臺灣其他的半導體業者來說，可能會有影響，那會不會加劇他們往美國去投資的這個方向？你們的評估報告裡頭有沒有包含這個部分？主委，我讓你說明一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於這個部分，其實他是說設廠跟承諾設廠，我們現在有幾種設廠方式，台積電是直接去建廠，像中美晶是透過併購、在德州，另外我們也看到聯電跟Intel有一些合作案，我的經驗是他也可以透過合作的方式來……"],["邱委員議瑩：取得關稅的減免。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，去合作。剩下的部分要有承諾，承諾的部分就看大家，但是我們之前曾經跟這些廠商做過一次座談，他們認為臺灣的競爭力是夠強的，如果今天大家都在一樣的關稅基礎下，以現在來看是大家都在100%的情況下，其實大家的競爭是一致的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你認為臺灣的競爭力是夠強，所以不用擔心現在所謂的半導體開徵100%？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我認為第一名如果都擔心，第二名就會害怕。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。主委，我想要更進一步請教，根據美國的貿易擴張法第232條，您雖然現在說我們的半導體業者其實是不用擔心，但是其他跟所謂的美國國安，或者是產業安全有相關的這些產業，甚至是裝有晶片的產品，未來是不是都有可能被課到稅？所以這個有可能包含筆電、伺服器、手機、網通設備、網路通訊設備跟家電等等，這些有沒有可能會在232條的限制之下，未來有可能被課到高的關稅？就這個部分，政府有什麼因應的措施，或者是你們有什麼研判？它的衝擊為何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：關於這個部分，的確這幾個現在是列在232，還沒有公告，所以我們現在做了兩個方案，一個是短期、緊急的時候，只能像進急診室一樣，是應急的方案，我們目前編列了950億的特別預算，希望能夠通過。但是我個人的看法是，如果這個再加劇到含晶片之終端設備的話，那我們可能要擴大我們的特別預算；第二個部分是……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你說擴大特別預算是擴大我們產業韌性這個條例的預算嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。第二個部分是中長期的部分，中長期的部分就是，當產業面臨這個就要開始進行布局的轉型，我們現在的國家政策本來就是希望立足臺灣、布局全球，我們也會協助廠商儘量去做全球布局來分散它的風險，或者是降低它的風險，我們現在也有一個完整的計畫已經準備好了，我們隨時可以公告，我們已經報院了，所以在短期、中期，長期，我們目前是有因應的作法，但是這個會不會有影響、影響有多少，還是要看最後的公告，它現在是沒有公告。因為這裡面牽扯到兩件事情，這幾個產品是在豁免清單，就是在WTO豁免清單裡面，在232裡面，它會怎麼因應？這還是一個要觀察的地方。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以這個還是很大的不確定性？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：那你們有沒有設定一個底線？當然我知道在談判的過程裡頭，很多的底線是不能現在對外說，那你們有沒有設定一個什麼樣的底線？或者是說找這些廠商、業者，大家共同討論一下，聽一下他們的心聲，他們現在面臨到未來有可能被課稅，或者是說現在整體關稅衝擊的狀態之下，政府有沒有充分的了解、掌握廠商的心聲？甚至我們有沒有設下一個什麼樣的底線，是在跟美方在做談判的時候，雙方其實是可以……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的、有的。"],["邱委員議瑩：至少對於我們自己廠商的保護，那個我們底線有沒有抓住？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有的，以Server來講，大部分的廠商都是比較大型的，我們可以看到在上半年，我們面對到墨西哥，我們成長了百分之兩百多，因為主要是大家的Server廠現在放在墨西哥，主要是可以透過USMCA得到保障。第二個部分以我的了解，大家現在開始往達拉斯在進行布局，因為這樣的關係，經濟部也去談了，目前在談什麼呢？談希望能夠讓臺商在德州達拉斯的布局裡得以免州稅。目前是得到州長的回應，眾議院也有通過，還要等他們的參議院、州參議院通過，所以這些我們都積極在協助大家往這條路走。","有關中小型的企業，目前他們的想法是因為他們規模比較小，去的話是不是能變成一個整合型的公司，以產業控股公司的形式過去，本來這種小公司要單獨去面對政府會很麻煩，倘若合併成一家公司，公司變成部門或是集團的話，就比較容易。所以我們也修訂了企業併購法，讓這些廠商在併購的過程中，沒有增加成本，在5年的寬限期內，本來併購要繳稅，現在併購不用繳稅，所以他們可以進行合併後，再到海外發展。因為他們需要比較大的資本，所以這些我們都有做好規劃，跟業者都有溝通過。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，我再問一個小問題，至於藥品呢？生技產業有沒有列入你們的保護清單裡？未來藥品有可能會被課到250%的關稅，生技的產業有沒有列入你們所謂的保護清單裡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我了解……"],["邱委員議瑩：就生技的部分，因為我們剛剛一直談的大概都是跟半導體有關嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：生技產業的部分呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的短、中期跟我剛才談的免州稅，這些都是沒有產業的限制，我們是所有的產業都要保護啦！"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們有把我們所有的產業都納入？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們也……"],["邱委員議瑩：至於我們未來可能會被課高關稅的部分，其實你們的保護力道或者輔導力道，應該是要再更加強。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們已經有一個清單，就以您提的這個製藥業來講，哪些在美國有布局的，現在清單都在我們手上啦！有些沒有的，它的外銷比重，經濟部也都有整理出來了，目前都在手上。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。主委，因為我的時間已經到了，我也不要耽誤大家太多時間，但是我想國發會對於整個關稅的談判過程，所有的追蹤管考跟對於國內產業經濟的衝擊，還是要一直不斷地滾動式修正。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們今天的這一份報告，其實不叫關稅底定之後的報告。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["邱委員議瑩：因為現在關稅還沒底定，真的底定之後的衝擊，包括實質的內容是什麼，到時候可能還是需要國發會再到立法院來做更進一步詳盡的報告，因為那個時候談判如果都確實結束之後，就沒有什麼保密的條款在裡頭了。其實國發會更應該開誠布公讓國內的業者也好，或者是國內整體的產業都要很清楚的知道，政府到底能夠為我們做一些什麼事情？能夠保護我們的產業到什麼樣的程度？或者是能夠協助臺灣的產業到什麼樣的程度？我覺得那個部分要請國發會隨時密切的掌控，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":9.768,"end":34.757,"text":"我还是针对台师大的女足的部分就教育部长因为这件事情目前处理告一段落但是我想有关后续的检讨的机制还有如何避免它发生我想我们还是必须要做一个厘清那我想这件事情在去年11月就已经爆发但是教育部跟国科会的积极处理的态度我们先来看一下那部长你知不知道国科会什么时候成立专案小组的"},{"start":36.428,"end":56.862,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上這件事情發生在11月28日被揭露我知道 你知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組國科剛剛已經有報過過我現在只要指名 這個時候就看出因為這裡面牽涉到兩個我們中央部會一個是國科會 一個是教育部我要跟委員報告 國科會在11月 隔天11月29號就馬上發文要台灣事態兩個禮拜內就要把這一個做掉"},{"start":62.426,"end":81.821,"text":"但是我懂啊所以说呢你看韩寝世大他们也算是快成立专案小组是12月23号没错吧国科会动作不算是太慢可惜的是我们这半年以后呢国科会跟台世大都在公文往返那我想教育部在半年里面做什么国科会做了教育部做什么"},{"start":83.49,"end":104.869,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上在12月16號就發文給教育這個針對台師大因為國會科會所責成的台師大的調查我們就因為教育這個師大把這個調查給教育部我們也責成他有許多的這個疑點還要再進一步查清在12月16號我們就已經好我們來看一下1月2號的時候台師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部"},{"start":109.733,"end":127.628,"text":"并且确定它是有违反人体的研究的法规那去年的时候呢国科会马上就可以专案小组并开了三次的会议我刚刚看到了副组委报告教育部是到今年5月19号才成立的这个专案会议没错吧跟委员报告晚了七个月"},{"start":128.228,"end":132.809,"text":"沒有 我們在3月6號事實上就召開第一次的好 那顯然為什麼到我們現在才鬧得沸沸揚揚就是這兩個部會所做的這些狀況沒有辦法滿足這些受害學生的需求否則這件事情如果早有處理就不會鬧到全國皆知那我現在想了解因為你前天的新聞就告訴我們說教育部目前有到三個學校"},{"start":152.335,"end":171.107,"text":"台大台市大北市大三个学校里面因为我们有IRB可以做这样一个申请的审核的部分有全国有13个嘛对不对你们为什么前天才去看这三个地方不是应该更早吗这事情发生已经这么久了七个月时间为什么前天才去看这三个学校"},{"start":171.98,"end":192.569,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上因為有很多在調查委員在大學也認教也是本身是大學教授出身所以所有的這個程序裡面我們都是依法而且快速的處理我知道啦部長我現在是說我們要來檢討但是我是說你前天才去然後新聞發布我們總覺得這個動作是有點太慢了"},{"start":193.389,"end":202.078,"text":"針對學校的許多的東西對好那我就來看嘛因為根據我們的法規上面教育部是對於這個輪審會是絕對具有監督跟輔導的一個角色因為這是根據我們的一個要點你必須要對於這個部分我想請過去這麼多年來教育部有對於創校這個13個輪審會裡面有任何的抽查或"},{"start":214.991,"end":216.552,"text":"跟柯委員報告在從109年到113年當中我們都有近期對 或者是有幾次"},{"start":233.622,"end":260.743,"text":"所以這13個學校做了這個抽查有幾次基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查每一年都進入抽查我們每一年我們109年開始對於這些13所學校不定期抽查但是我們都有抽查過一輪這些相關的資料我們可以會後提供給你們好 我現在想要了解我要想了解你們到底是說因為你現在都有法規在那顯然是這個法規上面跟執行層面上出現了一個很大的落差不好意思我是不是可以請我們的陳學志主委"},{"start":261.724,"end":263.926,"text":"虽然我们过去在这个幽默心理学上"},{"start":293.745,"end":316.34,"text":"我們在審查的時候看到他提出來資料裡面並沒有一天抽三次血只有一天抽一次血然後那個實際的時候我們去問的時候很多學生也是說都是只有一天抽一次血只有他沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽所以這個案子事先也都有送給那個校外的醫生來做審查"},{"start":317.02,"end":335.243,"text":"所以说你们经过校外医生你们认为这个案子就是他们所呈报上去不是一天三次是一天一次而且医生认为这个是符合我们一般的健康一般的规准所以你们才会允许所以当他这个学生爆料说一天三次的时候而且不止一个学生的时候你们轮审会的态度会是什么"},{"start":336.223,"end":351.09,"text":"報告委員我們有去追查而且我會去把原來資料調出來而且我們發現在精準運動科學的時候並沒有發現因為會議事人員抽血因為主持人都有把護士的證照抽血時間跟匯款的紀錄"},{"start":352.17,"end":369.507,"text":"我觉得这个咨询上是有一些的落差特别你刚刚说你只看到一次这个学生确实三次这就是我等一下要特别问到部长的就是我们现在虽然有建立这样一个机制但是呢不管是我们的IRB或是REC完全是在落实跟申请等等之间到底是出现在什么样的问题所以说呢"},{"start":370.228,"end":389.586,"text":"那个轮审会一次然后也觉得符合这个医生所说的可是到最后结果却是老师执行计划的申请人竟然是做的跟他们送这个计划的时候是有一些执行上的落差我这样说没有错吧那这部分未来教育部该怎么办来陈老师你可以回座这个那教育部你该怎么办对这样的问题"},{"start":390.486,"end":412.171,"text":"謝謝委員關心 確實我們在過去在這個RARB裡面從大學端裡面他比較少建立有內控內積的這樣一個機制然後另外包含這個學生在接受或者這個受試者在接受一些相關的學術研究的時候我們也比較少有建立一個這樣一個譬如說"},{"start":414.491,"end":441.368,"text":"这个部长这是我们今天执行这个最主要的目的因为我们都有这个法规我们都有这个单位在这个地方可是要是不是爆发出台师大这件事情的话没人想到包括我们自己的学生在做这样子有关于论文的时候他都要经过这样的申请那基本上面又没有牵涉到这个血液的这个部分所以大家就是用这个方法来了稍微看看就让他通过然后发现执行层面是有一些问题我现在接下来请体育署长也要一起上来因为呢"},{"start":442.088,"end":463.224,"text":"基本上面除了国客会这个报告之外呢这个我们的周教授跟我们这个陈忠庆教授呢他有申请的运发基金里面的150万也是来做这个裁写这样的部分申请到你们运发基金因为这跟国客会是不一样申请的单位不一样所以当然审查单位不一样那我想请问一下你认为郑署长你也在大学教书"},{"start":463.644,"end":482.206,"text":"你认为这件案子里面有没有违反这个受试者愿意抽血因为他也有采血啊而且第一时间我还是要强调镇署长你还帮他们洗地你告诉我说抽血不等于采血但是呢而且你们告诉我们说这个部分IRB这个部分呢对你们这个领域当中是未来的趋势结果呢你看看"},{"start":482.907,"end":485.829,"text":"在這個報告當中明明這個所謂的抽血這樣的一件事情還有送請IRB的這樣審核機制也有啊他也有條列在那邊他要申請經費耶那怎麼可能沒有呢體育署在面對這件狀況怎麼說"},{"start":498.88,"end":513.746,"text":"報告委員我想這個是周台英老師跟陳宗敬老師他本身就違反了我們一開始的運科資源計畫的精神我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果來應用在選手的"},{"start":515.106,"end":523.13,"text":"你這邊有提過運動訓練服務不是人體研究對不對所以他不能夠拿來做研究所以他本身違反了這個規定所以這又是一個問題嘛你們讓他有150萬的錢用你們的運發基金然後呢他的執行你們現在都告訴我說他違反那這中間落差到怎麼樣我們所有的東西都配備我們所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初跟你們申請跟你們發的錢完全不一樣那未來該怎麼辦嘛"},{"start":542.1,"end":556.86,"text":"這個部分我們還是會強調因為包委員說實在大部分的我們這個計畫裡面的所有的運科資源參與的老師都知道其實真的不能拿去做發表它也不是研究所以真的是陳仲慶本身個人的一個違規行為"},{"start":558.112,"end":579.086,"text":"所以未来的部分我们现在最大包括我们这个部分都是事情发生完之后我们再回去追溯我们显然没有一个特别的机制可以来做这样的一个预防其实我们现在请国家运科中心来研理一个我们的运科检测的流程以及计划审查流程我们会来请一跟卫福部一起来讨论"},{"start":581.588,"end":608.305,"text":"對 所以你要全面清查陳宗慶老師 周太英老師所申請的所有這個計畫的補助的公編然後呢 最重要我在乎的就是有沒有取得受試者的同意書而且經過他們的簽署而不是被脅迫我覺得這個部分才是才是很大的一個重點啊所以我真的覺得體育署應該演繹怎麼樣強制送審這個IRB你們目前為止還是不是一個必要的條件但是未來不要告訴我只是一個趨勢這都是一樣因為畢竟用到你們的錢"},{"start":609.325,"end":618.649,"text":"這還是非常重要的這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題最後問一個那個體育部你剛好在這個地方你有被徵詢運動部的部長的這個部分嗎沒有"},{"start":622.83,"end":642.209,"text":"目前没有是吧?没有。目前没有。好,那目前筹备的状况如何?给我一分钟就好。目前筹备状况如何?报告委员,目前我们将在原体育大楼设置运动部门,部分的部门像在全民署以及产业科技师以及资讯处会到,我们就将离站附近的灌达。"},{"start":642.349,"end":649.555,"text":"沒有啦我只是說你現在人力是從130個我們現在人是有總共427個對但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期喔從130變成429而且你分兩年合計而且目前來說你們的規模已經提升到210"},{"start":658.441,"end":685.292,"text":"但是呢据说你们的招聘目前为止不如这个预期这个人力的承揽各方面的部分我还是强调而且最终变成一个运动部里面有非常多非常多像是我们以前跟特别提到的这个执行的层面像运动产业条例非常多的职棒的运动员也非常希望在提升为运动部完之后能够对于他们所关切的包括企业联下包括这个台皮篮球队没有替有过半没有替选手来劳保这个问题"},{"start":685.652,"end":692.558,"text":"我希望在成立这样的部会当中你可以继续执行而且确实的执行这才是成立运动部最大的一个目标"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":99,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時21分）謝謝召委。是不是先請教育部鄭部長？"],["主席：請鄭部長備質詢。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。我針對臺師大女足問題就教部長。目前這件事已經處理告一段落，但後續的檢討機制及如何避免它發生，我想我們還是必須釐清。","這件事在去年11月爆發，就教育部跟國科會的處理態度我們來看一下。部長，你知不知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這件事發生在11月28日……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，所以我問你知不知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組？國科會剛剛已經報過，我現在只是……因為這件事牽涉到兩個中央部會，一個是國科會，一個是教育部……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，國科會在隔天，即11月29日就馬上發文臺灣師大，要求兩個禮拜內做調查……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯，我懂。國科會函請師大，所以他們動作也算快，並於12月23日成立專案小組，沒錯吧？動作不算太慢，可惜的是這半年裡國科會跟臺師大都在做公文往返！但教育部在這半年裡做了什麼？國科會做了，但教育部做了什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上我們在12月16日就針對臺師大……因為國科會責成臺師大調查，而之後師大把調查結果給教育部，我們認為當中有許多疑點要再進一步查清，故責成師大……12月16日我們就已經啟動……"],["柯委員志恩：我們來看一下。1月2日時，臺師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部，確定違反人體研究法規。我剛剛看了副主委的報告，知道去年國科會就成立專案小組，並開了三次會議，但教育部到今年5月19日才召開專案會議，沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["柯委員志恩：晚了七個月！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有！事實上我們在3月6日就召開了第一次大專校院研究倫理……"],["柯委員志恩：為什麼到現在還鬧得沸沸揚揚？顯然這兩個部會所做的沒有辦法滿足受害學生的需求！這件事如果早有處理，就不會鬧到全國皆知。我現在想了解，前天的新聞提及教育部到三所學校，臺大、臺師大及北市大三所學校，因為可以做IRB申請審核的學校全國有十三個，對不對？你們為什麼前天才去看這三所學校？不是應該更早嗎？事情已經發生這麼久了，七個月時間，為什麼到前天才去看這三所學校？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為有很多問題仍在調查，委員在大學任教，本身是大學教授出身，理當知道這點。而且所有程序我們都依法快速在處理……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，所以現在我們要做檢討，而且你前天才去，新聞也才發布，讓我們覺得動作有點太慢了。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們今天是針對學校的許多東西……"],["柯委員志恩：根據法規規定，教育部對於倫審會具有監督跟輔導之責，根據要點，教育部必須對這部分……過去這麼多年來，教育部對於這十三個倫審會有做任何的抽查嗎？我們先排除臺師大這個案子，請問你們有做任何抽查跟輔導嗎？有發現任何不符合IRB規定的事項嗎？你們有做過嗎？有做過這樣的動作嗎？有幾次？過去十年有幾次？"],["廖司長高賢：跟柯委員報告，從109年到113年當中，我們都有定期或不定期……"],["柯委員志恩：有幾次？對這13個學校做抽查，有幾次？"],["廖司長高賢：基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查。"],["柯委員志恩：每一年都進行抽查？"],["廖司長高賢：我們從109年開始對這13所學校不定期抽查，但是我們都有抽查過一輪，這些相關資料，我們可以會後提供給委員。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我想要了解你們到底是如何，因為現在都有法規在，但顯然是法規和執行層面出現一個很大的落差。不好意思，我是不是可以請陳學志主委？雖然過去我們在幽默心理學上曾……陳主委是非常具有經驗的。"],["主席：請陳學志主委。"],["柯委員志恩：我很想了解一下，因為這是全國矚目的點，臺師大倫審會為什麼對於……看到女足每一個人所陳述的真是血淚斑斑，一天有三次，為什麼臺師大可以讓這樣的案子通過呢？你們的倫審會為什麼看到這樣一個計畫申請可以讓它通過呢？"],["陳主任委員學志：報告委員，我們在審查的時候看到提出來的資料，裡面並沒有一天抽三次血，只有一天抽一次血，實際我們去問的時候，很多學生也說都是一天只有抽一次血，只有在沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽，所以這個案子事先也都有送給校外的醫生審查。"],["柯委員志恩：所以經過校外醫生，你們認為這個案子他們所呈報上去的不是一天三次，而是一天一次，而且醫生認為這個是符合我們一般的健康、一般的標準，所以你們才會允許？當學生爆料說一天三次，而且不止一個學生這樣說的時候，你們倫審會的態度是什麼？"],["陳主任委員學志：報告委員，我們有去追查，而且會把原來資料調出來，我們發現在精準運動科學的時候，並沒有發現非醫事人員抽血，因為主持人都有把護士的證照、抽血時間跟匯款人紀錄都有拿出來。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這個資訊上是有一些落差，特別你剛剛說你只看到一次，但是學生卻說是三次，這就是我等一下要特別問部長的。我們現在雖然有建立這樣一個機制，但是不管是IRB或REC，在落實跟申請等等之間到底是出現什麼樣的問題？倫審會認為是一次，也覺得符合醫生所說的，可是到最後的結果卻是老師、執行計畫的申請人做的竟然跟他們送的計畫有一些執行上的落差，我這樣說沒有錯吧？這部分未來教育部該怎麼辦？陳老師，你可以回座。教育部，你該怎麼辦？對這樣的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。確實我們過去在IRB裡面，在大學端比較少建立內控、內稽這樣一個機制，包含學生在接受或者受試者在接受一些相關學術研究的時候，我們也比較少建立這樣一個……"],["柯委員志恩：是，部長，這就是我們今天質詢最主要的目的，因為我們都有這個法規、我們都有相關單位，可是要不是爆發出臺師大這件事情的話，沒有人想到，包括我們自己的學生在做這樣子的論文的時候，要經過這樣的申請，基本上因為沒有牽涉到血液的部分，所以大家就是計畫來了，稍微看一下就讓它通過，然後發現執行層面是有一些問題。","我現在接下來要請體育署長也一起上來，基本上除了國科會這個報告之外，周教授跟陳忠慶教授申請運發基金裡面的150萬也是要採血，他們申請到運發基金，這跟國科會的不一樣，申請單位不一樣，當然審查單位就不一樣。","我想請問一下，鄭署長你也在大學教書，你認為這件案子裡面有沒有違反受試者意願進行抽血？因為它也有採血，而且第一時間，我還是要強調，鄭署長，你還幫他們洗地，你告訴我抽血不等於採血，而且你們告訴我們IRB在你們這個領域當中是未來的趨勢，結果你看看，在這個報告當中，明明所謂抽血這樣一件事情，還有送請IRB的審核機制也有啊！它也有條列出來，它要申請經費，那怎麼可能沒有呢？體育署面對這些狀況怎麼說？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想這個是周台英老師跟陳忠慶老師本身就違反了我們一開始的運科支援計畫的精神，我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果應用在選手的強化表現，但不能夠做……"],["柯委員志恩：你這邊有提過運動訓練服務，不是人體研究，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：對！所以他不能夠拿來做研究。"],["柯委員志恩：所以是他違法對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：他本身違反了這個規定。"],["柯委員志恩：所以這又是一個問題嘛！你們讓他有150萬的錢，是用你們的運發基金，對於他的執行，你們現在都告訴我說他違反，這中間的落差到底是怎麼樣？我們所有的東西都有配套，所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方，可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初向你們申請、跟你們發的錢完全不一樣，那未來該怎麼辦？"],["鄭署長世忠：這個部分我們還是會強調……報告委員，說實在的，大部分我們這個計畫裡面的所有運科支援，參與的老師都知道真的不能拿去發表，它也不是研究，所以真的是陳忠慶本身個人的一個違規行為。"],["柯委員志恩：所以未來……包括這個部分，都是事情發生完之後，我們再回去追溯，我們顯然沒有一個特別的機制可以做相關的預防。"],["鄭署長世忠：是有的，報告委員，我們現在請國家運科中心研擬一個運科檢測的流程以及計畫審查流程，我們會……"],["柯委員志恩：好，一個月之內是不是可以……"],["鄭署長世忠：跟衛福部一起討論。"],["柯委員志恩：對，所以你要全面清查陳忠慶老師、周台英老師申請的所有計畫補助，然後最重要我在乎的是有沒有取得受試者的同意書。"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有錯。"],["柯委員志恩：而且經過他們的同意簽署，而不是被脅迫的，我覺得這個部分才是很大的一個重點。所以我真的覺得體育署應該研議怎麼樣強制送審IRB，目前為止這還不是一個必要的條件，但是未來……不要告訴我只是一個趨勢。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們會跟衛福部討論這件事。"],["柯委員志恩：這都一樣，因為畢竟用到你們的錢，這還是非常重要的，這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題。最後問一個，體育部……你剛好在這個地方……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，是運動部。"],["柯委員志恩：你有被徵詢接任運動部部長嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告，沒有！"],["柯委員志恩：目前沒有，是不是？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有。"],["柯委員志恩：目前沒有！好，目前籌備的狀況如何？給我1分鐘就好，目前籌備狀況如何？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前我們將在原體育大樓設置運動部，部分部門，像全民署、產業科技司以及資訊處會到六張犁站附近的冠德、和平大樓。"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒有，我只是說現在的人力是從130個……"],["鄭署長世忠：我們現在總共有427個……"],["柯委員志恩：對，但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期，從130變成429，而且分兩年合計，目前來說你們的規模已經提升到200億，但是到目前為止招聘並不如預期，包括人力承攬各方面。我還是強調，最重要是變成一個運動部，裡面有非常多、非常多，像我們以前特別提到的執行層面，像運動產業發展條例，非常多職棒的運動員也非常希望在提升為運動部之後，能夠對於他們所關切的，包括企業聯賽、包括台啤籃球隊有過半選手沒有加入勞保這個問題，我希望在成立這個部會當中，你可以繼續執行，而且確實的執行，這才是成立運動部最大的一個目標，對不對？"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員提醒。"],["柯委員志恩：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，質詢官員請回座。"],["主席（劉委員書彬代）：現在請葛如鈞委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-18","speakers":["葛如鈞","柯志恩","劉書彬","萬美玲","陳秀寳","張雅琳","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","郭昱晴","范雲","李坤城","黃捷","羅廷瑋","廖先翔","陳培瑜","葉元之","黃國昌","高金素梅","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":3,"meetingDate":["2025-08-07"],"gazette_id":"1147202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備\n質詢；二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之\n人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理\n之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢；三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政\n院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147202_00002"}}},{"id":"163397","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163397","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ce960b47cc6398b96586edd40dd901ed70dc6911ab88c3aa4cae28f5d81933a33111ea93ed5935be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:17:44 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請教"},{"start":50.441,"end":75.703,"text":"有部分企業是在這個名單裡面但是如果他進行承諾然後確實過去投資他就可以 也可以豁免那我們當然要看企業的佈局企業的佈局對 但是我們主要的出口最主要的出口是台積電那台積電已經豁免了那提供晶圓的中美晶中美晶併購了德州廠他有德州廠生產"},{"start":76.664,"end":100.275,"text":"那像聯電我們第二大的聯電其實跟Intel合作也許他們也可以透過跟Intel的合作來解決這一部分因為我銷售的部分大概只有佔1.12%的出口值因為大部分都是銷到那個組裝廠去做組裝是 所以換句話說照剛剛主委你的說明也就是台積電是豁免的對"},{"start":101.394,"end":126.79,"text":"他已經承諾在那邊投資已經在 已經投資了好 那麼 對所以本席要請教因為我們半導體跟伺服器的IC產品對於我們出口美國的貿易比是佔的非常的大很高影響也非常的大所以我們政府在評估的時候我們要怎麼樣去應對去協助整個產業的一個說明請做說明"},{"start":128.451,"end":143.288,"text":"這個部分其實在四月份的時候我們就有多次的會議跟業者進行座談如果以半導體為例的話也當時他們大廠是認為說他們可以調節全球的佈局來因應"},{"start":144.289,"end":162.381,"text":"那第二個是有些廠商是只有在台灣的他是認為台灣的半導體的競爭力是相當強的如果所有的對手都是一樣的稅率那大家是起跑線一樣舉個例子如果大家都是100%那我對手是100%中國100%我們也是100%的話他們就認為"},{"start":165.709,"end":188.91,"text":"我們的競爭力是夠強的那如果照主委這麼說要跟別人的起跑線是一樣的但是這似乎是不太可能完美的都一樣所以我們政府還是要有所應對的方案讓我們的產業它能夠有所依歸跟它的軌道到底要怎麼走所以本席要來請教"},{"start":190.191,"end":194.253,"text":"美國總統川普在他5日的時候接受CNBC的電訪當中他聲稱台積電會花3000億美元在亞利桑那多來投資設廠但是依照媒體的報導台積電已經回應說目前的投資計畫就是1650億美元"},{"start":213.303,"end":241.725,"text":"這個1650億美元就是為董事長在今年的3月4號的時候在白宮原本的650億再加碼1000億所以目前有協議的是1650億那當然昨天經濟部長呢 郭部長稱這個3000億是假消息雖然他事後經濟部也提出了說明說是語意 沒有說明清楚但是本席要請教您身為台積電的董事"},{"start":242.986,"end":264.201,"text":"那麼川普號稱的要加碼到3000億美元這件事情是不是真的在你們的董事會內部有沒有做討論這個是沒有討論喔但我有跟委員報告一下他今天早上在宣布半導體關稅的時候他又提到是2000億又提到2000億對 他又講到2000億是"},{"start":264.929,"end":276.945,"text":"那他這個2000應該是第二我如果沒記錯是第二次談了那所以呢但是台積電目前的回應從我們要以公司回應為主台積電回應還是在1650億"},{"start":279.127,"end":298.914,"text":"那主委那這個產業難怪產業非常的緊張因為高度的不確定性由原先說的3000億到早上的2000億那您又是台積電的董事我可以解讀您剛才所做的回答是說目前台積電還是以1650億為投資額那麼至於其他的還沒有做討論是不是可以這麼解讀"},{"start":306.618,"end":318.875,"text":"這個都是以公司的回應為主嘛因為這是私人企業嘛那他已經回應了他就是回應1650億那剛才你所說因為你是董事嘛所以目前董事會沒有在討論這個事項"},{"start":322.611,"end":326.437,"text":"呃對我們因為從上一次到現在我們是還沒有在討論好所以本期要請教因為政府告訴我們民眾台美的談判還沒有結束還在談但是因為媒體說目前呢"},{"start":337.732,"end":357.404,"text":"這個白宮也說是1650億但是早上又稱2000億川普先生自己說的在這樣的情況之下本席要請教台積電因為你是董事台積電在未來以及近期不會再發生加碼投資的事件產生是不是如此"},{"start":358.684,"end":379.255,"text":"我沒辦法預測的原因是這樣我們在董事會主要是經營者在做董事長跟CEO在經營那董事會只是對重大決策進行的同意或者是不同意那當然它是一個群體的結果也不是個人的結果群體的一個結果所以因為你身為董事所以本期要請教"},{"start":381.212,"end":392.009,"text":"未來會不會因為隨台美關稅談判的過程因為談判的相關又要出現台積電加碼的投資"},{"start":394.864,"end":419.865,"text":"我不知道會不會但是我的看法所有的企業在發展的過程中一定是看生意訂單他不會去放一筆錢在那邊沒有訂單那所有的企業都是有訂單他就會有考慮沒有訂單他就不會有考慮應該是以訂單為核心對 現在我們是以你國防會主委的身分在討論這個國家政策因為現在還在談總統有告訴我們"},{"start":423.676,"end":431.744,"text":"總統也告訴我們還在談還不是結束所以在這樣的情況之下本席才請教你因為談判的相關會不會要求台積電再加碼的這個說法當然你剛剛告訴我你沒有辦法確定告訴我們這也就是我再次強調產業的不確定感跟不安定感"},{"start":446.138,"end":462.705,"text":"那所以本席之所以這麼關注呢因為台積電是我們很重要的系統那也因為台美談判的高度這個不透明性所以我們看到日韓他們在談判的過程當中他適度的揭露訊息給國民而且日韓也已經談好了關稅對等的這個15%也比台灣低"},{"start":469.668,"end":497.671,"text":"那我們看到這樣的情況包括日韓的協議當中也包括了這個半導體跟藥品等相關的產業的待遇也不會比其他國家差但是我們看到我們到目前為止國民產業還是不殺傻我們還是不知道到底是怎麼樣就像剛剛主委你所回答的我還是不確定所以本事要請教政府到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾"},{"start":498.712,"end":519.284,"text":"可以告訴民眾到底我們的樣態是怎麼樣這個因為我沒有參與關稅談判那我只知道還在談所以我個人是蠻肯定的因為已經從32往下降了我個人期待當然是我們會從20再往下降所以"},{"start":521.496,"end":544.194,"text":"就像您所說的 您也不清楚 民眾更不清楚那各司本職 但是您是國防會的主委所有國家的重大政策決策 您是非常重要的角色接下來本席要請教 您也是企業界出身那我們知道不確定感對產業的衝擊是非常的大"},{"start":545.154,"end":571.94,"text":"更何況我們對於對等關稅半導體關稅美豬牛農產品市場是不是要開放投資美國的金額都沒有一個方向一個確定感那麼外媒更有報導美方的談判代表正在像擠檸檬一樣壓榨台灣正在這麼做美國想要台灣全面的開放市場我希望不是如此請問"},{"start":574.861,"end":600.101,"text":"請問會是如此嗎應該這樣講現在外面的新聞都是沒有參與談判的人在講的啦那我太太以前就是做WTO談判的就我了解這些都是機密都不可能因為談判是見光死所以沒有人我想商業談判也是一樣的沒有人會把底線跟想法拿出來當然談判有必要的秘密但是也要適度的讓民眾來了解跟安心對不對"},{"start":603.274,"end":627.506,"text":"那我想放心的部分是台灣的中長期轉型我們往AI為主那像譬如說以台中的工具機它應該是產品的AI高質化那供應鏈的AI化生產的AI化 降低成本這些可能是一個更重要的事因為不管關稅怎麼變動企業的轉型都要做所以呢我們現在就是有一個AI關稅怎麼變動都是針對於我們產業非常關鍵"},{"start":632.589,"end":639.434,"text":"是非常關鍵不要把它不當一回事這是非常關鍵的所以本席要再來請教因為我們面臨到關稅的這個重大問題那麼我們現在普發現金普發現金的本席要請教7月11號三讀通過了那麼預計在這個條例裡頭總統也公告是在10月底要普發現金所以本席要請教現在也有說要排富的"},{"start":662.609,"end":670.075,"text":"既然不服役什麼時候要做那麼本席要請教不服役我們什麼時候要做這個總統公告了嘛那整個決策當然還是在預言那"},{"start":682.547,"end":700.962,"text":"因為我並沒有參與到這一段所以又有媒體說要排富那麼行政院到底規劃怎麼樣再也推動產業的一個協助普範現金對於我們整個緩解物價高的壓力是非常的重要所以以前"},{"start":701.442,"end":703.464,"text":"以前蔡英文總統的時候也曾經發過振興券發過現金馬英九總統時候也發過消費券那現在我們既然法案已經通過總統也公告了本市要請教就您國防會的立場你同意普發現金一萬塊嗎我的立場是這樣我們第一次發消費券的時候是經濟"},{"start":723.784,"end":744.836,"text":"在馬英九時代的確景氣很差的時候當時也是從國安會來initial這個事情的但那時候是景氣非常非常差那後面所產生的三倍捐跟五倍捐是因為我們財政盈餘很多那利用財政盈餘給的那我們現在的狀況是我們上半年6.7%以上的GDP成長率我們的經濟狀況是好的"},{"start":747.578,"end":753.323,"text":"那現在是有財政剩餘的部分剛好我們就要拿來用來協助大家渡過關稅難但這筆錢如果拿來協助關稅的議題讓經濟能夠更好可能我認為會普發來得更好因為過去看起來的效果並沒有振興經濟的效果"},{"start":768.355,"end":771.498,"text":"提供更好的就業機會來得好所以如果依照主委你的說法你是不贊同普發我沒有不贊同是說我講的是排序因為蘇貞昌排序的部分我們應該是想以振興經濟協助產業度過關稅難關幫助國防安全為優先"},{"start":788.892,"end":791.915,"text":"所以蘇貞昌院長曾經說普範現金是全民共享經濟成長的一個果實陳建仁院長也說他可以鼓勵消費振興台灣內需的產業我們希望苦民所苦剛剛我們談到的也就是怎麼樣產業振興從880億到本期一直強調"},{"start":809.149,"end":832.923,"text":"絕對不夠到930億我也跟郭部長一直在討論現在我們又希望能夠好好的來協助我們的產業尤其在中部地區工具機手工具機機械零組件扣件等木工機等自行車業都在中部地區當然主委你也關心這些產業所以在你一桌內要提出如何協助我們產業的這個數字我們拭目以待"},{"start":836.605,"end":856.923,"text":"好好的来协助我们的产业我也补充一下您刚刚讲对了我们工具机这些产业都需要帮忙原因是我们有两个指数一个是生产指数来看未来的生产的状态的确它是比之前期是低的但是消费的部分的指数是往上拉的那往上拉的代表民间消费力道是够强的"},{"start":857.983,"end":861.224,"text":"所以這筆錢要看哪?對 你下鄉去看一看啦物價高的一個壓力 已經讓人民喘不過氣來了普插現金一萬元 刺激國內的產業的經濟輪動讓人民好生活 苦民所苦啦 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":62,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（9時17分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。邀請主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委你好。主委，首先要請教，美國的川普總統今天早上宣布，將對所有進入美國的晶片和半導體課徵100%的關稅稅率，但不適用於承諾在美國生產的公司，所以要請教，臺灣的半導體跟相關的產業到底有沒有包含在川普口中的課100%關稅的範圍內？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有部分企業是在這個名單裡面，但是如果他要進行承諾，然後確實過去投資，他就可以豁免，當然這要看企業的布局。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：企業的布局？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，但是我們最主要的出口者是台積電，台積電已經豁免了，提供晶圓的中美晶併購了德州廠，他有在德州廠生產，像我們第二大的聯電，聯電其實跟英特爾有合作，也許他們也可以透過跟英特爾的合作來解決這一部分，因為我們銷美的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以換句話說……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大概只有占1.12%的出口值，因為大部分都是銷到組裝廠去做組裝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，所以換句話說，照剛剛主委的說明，也就是台積電是豁免的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他已經承諾在那邊投資？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：已經投資了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，因為我們半導體跟伺服器的IC產品對於我們出口美國的貿易比占得非常的大，很高，影響也非常大，所以政府在評估的時候要怎麼樣去應對、去協助整個產業？請做說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分其實在4月份的時候，我們就有多次的會議跟業者進行座談。如果以半導體為例的話，當時他們大廠是認為說，他們可以調節全球的布局來因應。第二個，有些廠商是只有在臺灣的，他是認為臺灣半導體的競爭力是相當強的，如果所有的對手都是一樣的稅率，大家的起跑線一樣。舉個例子，如果大家都是100%，對手是100%，中國100%，我們也是100%的話，他們就認為，我們的競爭力是夠強的，因為跟其他人是一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那如果照主委這麼說，跟別人的起跑線是一樣的，但是這似乎是不太可能完美的都一樣，所以我們政府還是要有所應對的方案，讓我們的產業能夠有所依歸，知道它的軌道到底要怎麼走。所以本席要來請教，美國總統川普在5日的時候接受CNBC的電訪當中，他聲稱台積電會花3,000億美元在亞利桑那州投資設廠，但是依照媒體的報導，台積電已經回應目前的投資計畫就是1,650億美元，這個1,650億美元就是魏董事長在今年3月4號的時候在白宮宣布的，由原本的650億再加碼1,000億，所以目前有協議的是1,650億。當然昨天經濟部郭部長稱這個3,000億是假消息，雖然事後經濟部也提出說明，說是語意沒有說明清楚。但是本席要請教，您身為台積電的董事之一，川普號稱的要加碼到3,000億美元，這件事情是不是真的？在你們的董事會內部有沒有做討論？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個沒有討論，但我也跟委員報告一下，他今天早上在宣布半導體關稅的時候又提到是2,000億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：又提到2,000億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，他有講到2000億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個2,000億，我如果沒記錯，是第二次談了。但是我們要以公司的回應為主，台積電目前的回應還是在1,650億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，那難怪產業非常的緊張，因為高度的不確定性，由原先說的3,000億到早上的2,000億。那您又是台積電的董事，我可以解讀您剛才的回答是說，目前台積電還是以1,650億為投資額，至於其他的還沒有做討論，是不是可以這麼解讀？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個都是以公司的回應為主，因為這是私人企業，它已經回應了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，它就是回應1,650億。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你是董事嘛，那依剛才你所說，目前董事會沒有在討論這個事項？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為從上一次到現在，我們是沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還沒有再討論？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有再討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。所以本席要請教，因為政府告訴我們民眾說臺美的談判還沒有結束，還在談，但是也有媒體說，目前白宮也說是1,650億，但是早上又稱是2,000億，川普先生自己說的。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，因為你是台積電董事，台積電在未來以及近期，不會再發生加碼投資的事件產生，是不是如此？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒辦法預測的原因是，主要是經營者，也就是董事長跟CEO在經營，我們董事會只是對重大決策進行同意或者是不同意嘛，當然它是一個群體的結果，也不是個人的結果。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：群體的一個結果，因為你身為董事……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那企業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，未來會不會隨著臺美關稅談判的過程，因為談判的相關，又要出現台積電加碼投資？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不知道會不會，但是我的看法是，所有的企業在發展過程中，一定是看生意訂單，它不會去放一筆錢在那邊沒有訂單，所有的企業都是有訂單，它就會有考慮，沒有訂單，它就不會有考慮，應該是以訂單為核心，因為它要對股東負責嘛。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，現在我們是以你國發會主委的身分在討論國家政策，因為現在還在談，總統也告訴我們還在談，還不是結束……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，就我瞭解……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以在這樣的情況之下，本席才要請教你，因為談判的相關，會不會要求台積電再加碼的這個說法。當然，你剛剛告訴我，你沒有辦法確定告訴我們，這也就是我再次強調產業的不確定感跟不安定感。本席之所以這麼關注，是因為台積電是我們很重要的矽盾，也因為臺美談判的高度不透明性。我們看到日、韓他們在談判的過程當中適度的揭露訊息給國民，而且日、韓已經談好的對等關稅稅率15%也比臺灣低，我們看到這樣的情況，而且日、韓的協議當中，包括半導體跟藥品等相關產業的待遇，也不會比其他國家差。但是我們看到，到目前為止，我們的民眾、產業還是「霧煞煞」，我們還是不知道到底是怎麼樣。就誠如剛剛主委你所回答的，我還是有不確定感。所以本席要請教，政府到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾，到底我們的樣態是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我沒有參與關稅的談判，我只知道還在談，所以我個人是蠻肯定的，因為已經從32%往下降，當然，我個人期待我們會從20%再往下降。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，就誠如您所說的，您也不清楚，民眾更不清楚。大家各司本職，但是您是國發會的主委，所有國家的重大政策、決策，您是非常重要的角色。接下來本席要請教，主委你也是企業界出身，我們知道，不確定感對於產業的衝擊非常的大，更何況我們對於對等關稅、半導體關稅、美豬牛農產品市場是不是要開放、投資美國的金額都沒有方向、確定感。那麼更有外媒報導，美方的談判代表正在像擠檸檬一樣壓榨臺灣，正在這麼做，美國想要臺灣全面的開放市場，我希望不是如此，但請問會是如此嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該這樣講，現在外面的新聞都是沒有參與談判的人在講的，我太太以前就是做WTO談判的，就我了解，這些都是機密，因為談判是見光死，我想商業談判也是一樣的，沒有人會把底線跟想法拿出來，在雙方都保密的情況下，一堆沒有參加的人在放話……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，談判有必要的秘密，但是也要適度地讓民眾了解跟安心，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我想放心的部分是，臺灣的中長期轉型我們往AI為主，譬如臺中的工具機，應該是產品的AI高值化、供應鏈的AI化、生產的AI化以降低成本，這些可能是更重要的事。因為不管關稅怎麼變動，企業的轉型都要做，所以我們現在是透過AI來協助轉型……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，關稅怎麼變動對於我們的產業是非常關鍵的，是非常關鍵，不要不把它當一回事，這是非常關鍵的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，委員，我們兩件事都要做啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要再來請教，因為我們面臨到關稅這個重大問題，我們現在要普發現金，普發現金一案7月11號三讀通過了，預計在這個條例裡頭……總統也公告是在10月底要普發現金，所以本席要請教，現在又有說要排富的，既然不覆議，什麼時候要做？本席要請教的是，不覆議，我們什麼時候要做？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個總統公告了，整個決策當然還是在院，因為我並沒有參與到這一段……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：又有媒體說要排富，那麼行政院到底規劃怎麼樣？在野推動的產業協助，普發現金對於我們緩解整個物價高漲的壓力是非常重要的，以前蔡英文總統的時候也曾經發過振興券、發過現金，馬英九總統的時候也發過消費券，現在既然法案已經通過，總統也公告了，本席要請教，就您國發會的立場，你同意普發現金1萬塊嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我的立場是這樣，我們第一次發消費券的時候是在馬英九時代，的確景氣很差的時候，當時也是國發會來initial這個事情的，但那時候是景氣非常非常差。後面所產生的三倍券跟五倍券是因為我們財政盈餘很多，是利用財政盈餘給的，而我們現在的狀況是，我們上半年GDP成長率是6.7%以上，我們的經濟狀況是好的，現在是有財政剩餘的部分，剛好我們就要拿來、用來協助大家度過關稅難關。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，稅收1.87……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們希望能度過關稅難關。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1.87兆。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，但這筆錢如果拿來協助關稅的議題，讓經濟能夠更好，我認為可能會比普發來得更好，因為過去看起來的效果並沒有比振興經濟效果、提供更好的就業機會來得好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以如果依照主委的說法，你是不贊同普發？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有不贊同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有不贊成？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我講的是排序。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好，因為蘇貞昌……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：排序的部分，我們應該是先以振興經濟、協助產業度過關稅難關、幫助國防安全為優先。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，蘇貞昌院長曾經說，普發現金是全民共享經濟成長的果實；陳建仁院長也說，它可以鼓勵消費，振興臺灣內需產業，我們希望能夠苦民所苦。剛剛我們談到的，也就是怎麼樣產業振興，從880億（本席一直強調絕對不夠）到930億，我也跟郭部長一直在討論，現在我們希望能夠好好的來協助我們的產業，尤其在中部地區，工具機、手工具、機械零組件、扣件、木工機、自行車業等都在中部地區，當然主委你也關心這些產業。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以請你在一週內提出如何協助我們產業的這個數字，我們拭目以待，好好的來協助我們的產業。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我也補充一下，您剛剛講對了，我們工具機這些產業都需要幫忙，原因是我們有兩個指數，一個是生產指數來看未來的生產狀態，的確它是比前期低的，但是消費部分的指數是往上拉的，往上拉代表民間消費力道是夠強的，所以這筆錢要用在哪裡？它應該用到產業，絕對比用到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你下鄉去看一看啦！物價高的壓力已經讓人民喘不過氣了，普發現金1萬元，刺激國內產業的經濟輪動，讓人民好生活，苦民所苦，好不好？謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請邱議瑩委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":500,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-19","speakers":["謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":447.284,"end":449.497,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":711.34,"end":712.582,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":802.483,"end":803.828,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1550.776,"end":1551.042,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1603.773,"end":1604.382,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1802.709,"end":1819.994,"text":"現在報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人已租法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期經濟委員會第18次全體委員會議事錄時間114年7月21日星期一9時至13時39分地點紅樓101會議室"},{"start":1825.576,"end":1848.623,"text":"出席委員 邱毅英等14人 列席委員 林俊憲等3人列席人員 經濟部部長郭志輝 農業部部長陳俊濟內政部政務次長董建宏 交通部政務次長陳彥博等主席謝昭及文一鳳 包志向 以宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二 邀請經濟部部長 農業部部長 內政部首長及交通部首長就丹娜斯颱風及0708豪雨災損及回復情形進行報告並被質詢"},{"start":1851.804,"end":1876.518,"text":"经济部部长郭志辉及农业部部长陈俊济报告后委员纠英等16人提出质询经由农业部部长陈俊济等及其答复决定1.登记发言委员除不在场者外区域均已发言完毕讯答结束2.委员吕逸林、陈冠廷及徐新颖所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报3.书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位于一周内书面答复并复制本会上会宣读完毕"},{"start":1879.5,"end":1893.232,"text":"好現在繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就美國對等關稅抵定後我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈局新規劃進行報告並被質詢宣讀完畢請國家發展委員會劉靜清主委進行報告"},{"start":1912.455,"end":1935.935,"text":"謝謝主席 各位先進 大家早今天承蒙委員會邀請本席就美國對等關稅抵定後我國經濟未來之景氣情況及全球佈局新規劃進行報告本會僅就業管部分提出說明 敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":1937.577,"end":1952.695,"text":"首先我大概簡單的介紹一下我們大概關稅的進程那川普在4月份的時候呢提出了32%之後經過了一番努力目前台灣是降到20%這個部分呢"},{"start":1956.099,"end":1970.597,"text":"是一次暫時性的關稅因為我們還在積極的爭取更有利更合理的稅率那美國政府也表達了意願願意跟台灣繼續進行談判的意願所以整個過程還在進行中那"},{"start":1971.758,"end":2000.34,"text":"另外這個部分目前初步的部分涵蓋了我們大約在25%的出口項目那大部分主要的出口項目是另有兩個因素在規範一個是豁免條款裡面的項目包括以科技類為主那另外是列入了232那部分豁免條款項目也列到了232的規定那232條款是以國家安全為主"},{"start":2002.121,"end":2020.274,"text":"為理由那開始進行的一個關稅的調整那至今年的3月已經對了鋼鐵鋁汽車零組件同等加徵關稅那這個部分加徵下來以後呢因為多數國家都得到一致性的稅率所以呢站在同一個"},{"start":2022.45,"end":2029.967,"text":"競爭點目前並沒有特別明顯的經濟的影響還沒有很還沒有展現出來那另外就是"},{"start":2031.758,"end":2058.904,"text":"川普總統在今天早上也宣布了對半導體加徵100%進口稅那因為台灣最主要的出口者是台積電台積電因為有美國社廠的關係得以豁免那我們有些廠商像中美晶在德州透過併購取得工廠也沒有受到影響那我們也有廠商現在是跟英特爾正在合作也可以透過一些美國廠商合作廠商出口"},{"start":2059.505,"end":2067.142,"text":"那部分會受影響部分不受影響但受影響者呢多半我們訪談下來多半來講因為他的主要競爭者"},{"start":2068.646,"end":2094.681,"text":"都是一樣被課徵百分之百的關稅所以台灣目前在全球領先的地位上我想領先者跟競爭者如果是站在同一個起保險上的話領先者還會繼續領先是我們目前初步的看法但是我們也會繼續觀察而且我們會提出短期跟長期的協助稍後我會做進行簡易的說明"},{"start":2095.661,"end":2114.007,"text":"我們先就今天上半年的整個經濟狀況做一個說明我們上半年的經濟成長率達到6.74是表現非常優異主要是受惠於AI還有高速運算等科技的發展因素"},{"start":2114.941,"end":2142.839,"text":"受惠於這部分所以帶動了整個的拉貨潮讓我們上半年的出口到去年從同期增加了將近26%那加上這個我們因為產業比較繁榮所以整個建廠擴充產能等等的因素帶動上半年的資本形成大幅擴增了10.4%那展彎下半年"},{"start":2144.451,"end":2158.587,"text":"因為有上半年拉貨潮加上一些不確定性的因素我們認為下半年還是要謹慎至於觀察它的進度然後這個事實的調整所以我們"},{"start":2159.568,"end":2173.475,"text":"是比較謹慎看下半年那下半年那但是全年的部分呢我們認為還是可以達到3.1%以上的經濟成長這也是吻合我們原來最早國家發展計畫裡面3%的標準那有兩個比較大的"},{"start":2178.892,"end":2205.369,"text":"動能在下半年會產生 因為傳統手機出貨潮從9月新級出來以後就是傳統的拉貨潮 第二個部分是AI Server是我們現在出口的主力 這個部分有新的機型 像GP300預計的出貨是在下半年所以這兩個會有一個比較大的拉動那讓我們在這個下半年還是可以看到一些好的機會那"},{"start":2207.233,"end":2223.742,"text":"那這個第二個部分是我們談到就是短期如何協助這個我國關稅出口供應鏈支持方案我們希望透過短期的協助然後讓整個經濟也可以持續穩定在3%以上所以我們也規劃了這個"},{"start":2227.56,"end":2255.969,"text":"這個4月份我們就針對整個工業農業提出了包括支持農業工業支持產業的部分加上安定就業等等定了九大面向20項措施總經費930億這個部分是希望呢協助企業在關稅面臨關稅議題的時候能夠這個因應應急的部分來短期協助他們來降低成本那解決資金上的困難"},{"start":2257.249,"end":2283.033,"text":"那這個是一個短期方案那接著我們會有一個中長期就是進入擴大內需的部分那我們支持產業希望讓給工業農業金融支持之外我們也輔導他們在技術升級設備太舊換新高質化的發展跟差異化產品的研發等等我們都給予比較多的資助另外是安定就業我們也提撥了"},{"start":2283.713,"end":2298.388,"text":"相當的金額來讓大家有一個安定的生活那另外為了中長期的發展我們國家必須要有三件事產生第一個叫做新產業第二個是新動能第三個是新布局我們利用三個大的主軸我們要調整我們的經濟結構"},{"start":2300.97,"end":2318.601,"text":"讓我們的未來的經濟風險降得比較低那我們希望透過新的產業佈局帶動更多的高新就業機會讓我們的國家繼續發展所以在新的產業上面我們可以看到這幾年的動能全球的動能跟未來"},{"start":2319.962,"end":2328.746,"text":"的發展都是以AI為核心為此我們國發會規劃了AI十大建設為核心然後搭配新來的產業積極的往新產業去發展"},{"start":2332.386,"end":2349.692,"text":"透過新產業發展讓更多的高薪就業機會產生也協助國內讓我們國內的經濟發展可以找到永續的動能這個動能也會帶動更多的高薪就業機會讓青年人有更好的美好未來"},{"start":2351.032,"end":2371,"text":"這個部分我們有三個比較大的重點希望透過三大重點讓台灣落實成為智慧科技島而且是成為全球AI影響力的中心第一個是智慧應用的部分我們智慧應用部分有三大主軸第一大主軸就是要協助企業透過AI翻轉未來"},{"start":2372.02,"end":2395.378,"text":"那我們這個部分呢就希望百工百業導入智慧應用因為AI是台灣的核心能力那產品的AI化產業作業流程的AI化供應鏈的AI化銷售的AI化進行精準行銷都可以有效協助企業在佈局跟跟銷售上進行足夠的翻轉第二個部分是我們要拉動新的產業我們的軟體產業有待提升"},{"start":2398.38,"end":2414.875,"text":"在美国的话呢,暖力产业大概占10%以上的GDP比重,我们现在在一点多,所以台湾还有一个很大的进步空间,所以我们希望透过与大厂合作,以大带小的方式推动新的暖力产业发展。"},{"start":2416.016,"end":2435.955,"text":"另外我們希望在AI的世界給人民一個AI的未來所以我們也會推動全民智慧生活圈讓大家生活在一個智慧的健康醫療環境智慧的交通環境智慧的零售環境智慧的家庭環境等等讓大家可以有一個更好的生活進入一個AI的世界"},{"start":2436.696,"end":2456.131,"text":"那另外我們為此呢也要保障國家未來的復國成山所以我們也會建立三個新的關鍵技術發展第一個關鍵技術發展是矽光子技術矽光子是在整個AI世界裡面寬頻領域裡面最重要的一點它除了有晶片封裝為核心那也會帶動"},{"start":2458.432,"end":2481.227,"text":"這個整個光通訊的部分的發展所以它有機會形成一個新的光產業所以我們積極推動這個部分那目前在台灣在矽光子領域已經領先全球了矽光子將會在2027年進入一個不明的時代所以我們可預期未來台灣在這個領域會有另外一片天"},{"start":2482.088,"end":2491.536,"text":"那另外在量子電腦我們也開始積極投入我們希望在未來的量子世界裡面我們不落於人那台灣目前在量子密碼上面也有相當"},{"start":2493.812,"end":2516.542,"text":"傲人的成績所以我們希望將來在通訊運算應用都能夠積極的發展那另外一個是我們也希望在未來的世界少子化的世界跟AI的世界裡面機器人無人載具是非常重要的所以我們也會積極的發展這個機器人供應鏈的關鍵技術成為全球的供應鏈核心那這個部分我們也在"},{"start":2518.264,"end":2539.84,"text":"台南我們也設了機器人園區有兩個還有研發基地另外我們其實無人載具的部分嘉義也設立了無人機專區等等我想我們在這些地方的推動會讓我們進入一個更進化的世界為此我們也奠定了數位計盤數位計盤裡面最重要的一項就是要讓台灣處處有AI就業機會"},{"start":2543.262,"end":2562.327,"text":"處處有高新就業機會所以我們把我們的六大區域均衡發展帶進了這個AI的規劃裡面以台中來講我們會規劃智慧精密型核心利用既有的精密機械為核心帶動AI的發展讓我們進入AI的產品世界讓整個產品的高質化產生"},{"start":2563.939,"end":2578.499,"text":"那我們也帶動了AI的農業我們希望透過在農業大縣也有好的結果在桃竹苗跟大南方大南方是嘉義、台南、高雄到屏東加上我們的桃竹苗這幾個地方都是我們南北雙矽谷"},{"start":2579.62,"end":2604.79,"text":"也是會帶動更多的機會那在北部地區我們首都圈核心的部分以基隆來講我們發展之外海洋專區改造基隆港這些都會帶動更多的機會讓整個AI鋪陳到我們的全島的各個角落讓大家都有機會那第二個部分我們是強化我們的算力第三個部分我們培養人才"},{"start":2605.45,"end":2625.319,"text":"我們預計要培養百萬人才我們最近有一個新的計劃短期內的40萬人才出發部也提出來了那另外在法令的部分我們會進行鬆綁希望當這個產業來帶動所有的發展那另外在新動能的部分我們在打造六大區域產業發展的時候我們加了十大生活圈"},{"start":2626.179,"end":2641.75,"text":"不但是產業的發展要帶動生活的發展所以整個生活相關的從教育到生活到百貨零售一直到我們的居住、社宅然後包括到交通到文化建設"},{"start":2643.131,"end":2653.076,"text":"燈花高壓 限定的廢棄物處理 到水電我們全部都規劃完成會整個一體性的帶動這個新的動能我們希望透過擴大內需來讓未來更好另外我們會強化觀光我們在觀光部分也會擴大預算"},{"start":2658.838,"end":2675.895,"text":"然後讓整個台灣在觀光產業的內需也會快速的拉動同時我們也希望透過提供長照3.0以及婚姻宅青年宅的等等的加入活絡民間讓大家生活變得比較更安定"},{"start":2676.576,"end":2705.675,"text":"那另外在新的布局部分我們積極的推動立足台灣布局全球很明顯全球化是一個大的未來那怎麼樣能夠透過全球布局分散風險也是非常重要的誠如我之前報告過在全球進口市場就是全球的國家開始去買東西的話美國只佔20%另外80%的市場也值得我們去攻略所以我們會積極的也往這個地方協助大家發展"},{"start":2706.616,"end":2721.292,"text":"那我們希望整個企業都能做到跟流台灣然後全球佈局那我們在相對的融資跟支持我們都會去強化那也會透過境外觀念的政策協助台商在"},{"start":2722.614,"end":2737.009,"text":"他要去發展的地方取得比較好的關稅跟優惠讓整個發展能夠更加的平順讓整個布局可以發展的比較好那很明顯我們台灣現在正在做二次的供應鏈布局轉型"},{"start":2737.89,"end":2752.37,"text":"那第一次的布局轉型我們是往這個中國走那中國走的部分目前一直在減少一直在減少一直在移出那目前看起來我們逐步移出去的部分我們的整個產業的出口"},{"start":2753.852,"end":2767.007,"text":"美國應該在今年會超越中國變成最大的地方那其實是東南亞所以很明顯台灣的佈局已經逐步慢慢在大幅的改變那我們希望幫助大家做好他的新佈局"},{"start":2769.222,"end":2783.476,"text":"以上就是我們對於美國關稅對全球經貿成長與產業鏈佈局的整個看法那我們認為只要落實到我們現在的短期政策跟中長期政策然後大家"},{"start":2784.497,"end":2808.088,"text":"一起來努力的話我想我們在全球的布局裡面應該還是會保有相當的競爭力跟韌性也會讓我們經濟持續的成長讓人民在更好的生活中享受他該有的AI生活跟幸福的生活以上為我的報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在先確定議事錄請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2810.947,"end":2828.832,"text":"好 沒有 那議事錄確定 現在進行詢答委員質詢前原例作以下宣告 每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘 必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘 上午10點30分截止發言登記首先先請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請主委"},{"start":2840.811,"end":2841.591,"text":"首先要請教美國川普總統他今天早上宣布將對所有進入美國的芯片和半導體課徵100%的關稅稅率"},{"start":2865.342,"end":2878.43,"text":"但不適用於承諾在美國生產的公司所以要請教台灣的半導體跟相關的產業到底有沒有在川普口中的課100%的關稅 請教"},{"start":2882.265,"end":2907.516,"text":"有部分企業是在這個名單裡面但是如果他進行承諾然後確實過去投資他就可以獲免那我們當然要看企業的佈局企業的佈局但是我們主要的出口最主要的出口是台積電那台積電已經獲免了那提供晶圓的中美晶中美晶併購了德州廠他有德州廠生產"},{"start":2908.616,"end":2930.256,"text":"像聯電我們第二大的聯電其實跟英特爾合作也許他們也可以透過跟英特爾的合作來解決這一部分因為我銷煤的部分大概只有佔1.12%的出口值因為大部分都是銷到組裝廠去做組裝所以換句話說照剛剛主委你的說明也就是台積電是豁免的對"},{"start":2933.22,"end":2958.619,"text":"他已經承諾在那邊投資已經在 已經投資了好 那麼 對所以本席要請教因為我們半導體跟伺服器的IC產品對於我們出口美國的貿易比是佔的非常的大 很高影響也非常的大所以我們政府在評估的時候我們要怎麼樣去應對去協助整個產業的一個說明請做說明"},{"start":2960.28,"end":2975.12,"text":"這個部分其實在4月份的時候我們就有多次的會議跟業者進行座談如果以半導體為例的話也當時他們大廠是認為說他們可以調節全球的佈局來因應"},{"start":2976.121,"end":2994.172,"text":"那第二個是有些廠商是只有在台灣的他是認為台灣的半導體的競爭力是相當強的如果所有的對手都是一樣的稅率那大家是起跑線一樣舉個例子如果大家都是100%那我對手是100%中國100%我們也是100%的話他們就認為"},{"start":2997.535,"end":3020.736,"text":"我們的競爭力是夠強的那如果照主委這麼說要跟別人的起跑線是一樣的但是這似乎是不太可能完美的都一樣所以我們政府還是要有所應對的方案讓我們的產業它能夠有所依歸跟它的軌道到底要怎麼走所以本席要來請教"},{"start":3022.898,"end":3029.244,"text":"這個美國總統川普在他5日的時候接受CNBC的電訪當中他聲稱台積電會花3000億美元在亞利桑那多來投資設廠但是依照媒體的報導台積電"},{"start":3038.993,"end":3044.48,"text":"已經回應說目前的投資計畫就是1650億美元這個1650億美元就是魏董事長在今年的3月10號的時候在白宮原本的650億再加碼1000億所以目前有協議的是1650億"},{"start":3057.555,"end":3083.974,"text":"那當然昨天經濟部長呢 郭部長稱這個3000億是假消息雖然他事後經濟部也提出了說明說是語意 沒有說明清楚但是本席要請教您身為台積電的董事之一那麼川普號稱的要加碼到3000億美元這件事情是不是真的在你們的董事會內部有沒有做討論"},{"start":3085.746,"end":3108.755,"text":"這個是沒有討論,但我有跟委員報告一下,他今天早上在宣布半導體關稅的時候,他又提到是兩千億又提到兩千億?對,他又講到兩千億,那他這個兩千億應該是第二次,我如果沒記錯是第二次談了那所以呢,但是台積電目前的回應,從我們要以公司回應為主,台積電回應還是在1650億"},{"start":3110.953,"end":3130.858,"text":"那主委那這個產業難怪產業非常的緊張因為高度的不確定性由原先說的3000億到早上的2000億那您又是台積電的董事我可以解讀您剛才所做的回答是說目前台積電還是以1650億為投資額那麼至於其他的還沒有做討論是不是可以這麼解讀"},{"start":3138.44,"end":3150.685,"text":"這個都是以公司的回應為主嘛因為這是私人企業嘛那他已經回應了他就是回應1650億那剛才你所說因為你是董事嘛所以目前董事會沒有在討論這個事項"},{"start":3154.436,"end":3158.237,"text":"呃對我們因為從上一次到現在我們是還沒有在討論好所以本期要請教因為政府告訴我們民眾台美的談判還沒有結束還在談但是因為媒體說目前呢"},{"start":3169.561,"end":3189.227,"text":"這個白宮也說是1650億但是早上又稱2000億川普先生自己說的在這樣的情況之下本席要請教台積電因為你是董事台積電在未來以及近期不會再發生加碼投資的事件產生是不是如此"},{"start":3190.507,"end":3211.299,"text":"我沒辦法預測的原因是這樣我們在董事會主要是經營者在做董事長跟CEO在經營那董事會只是對重大決策進行的同意或者是不同意那當然它是一個群體的結果也不是個人的結果群體的一個結果所以因為你身為董事所以本期要請教"},{"start":3213.038,"end":3223.83,"text":"未來會不會因為隨台美關稅談判的過程因為談判的相關又要出現台積電加碼的投資"},{"start":3226.69,"end":3254.348,"text":"我不知道会不会但是我的看法所有的企业在发展的过程中一定是看生意订单他不会去放一笔钱在那边没有订单那所有的企业都是有订单他就会有考虑没有订单他就不会有考虑应该是以订单为核心对现在我们是以你国防会主委的身份在讨论这个国家政策因为现在还在谈总统也告诉我们"},{"start":3255.322,"end":3260.946,"text":"總統也告訴我們還在談還不是結束所以在這樣的情況之下本席才請教你因為談判的相關會不會要求台積電再加碼的這個說法當然你剛剛告訴我你沒有辦法確定告訴我們這也就是我再次強調產業的不確定感跟不安定感那所以本席之所以這麼關注呢因為台積電是我們很重要的戲盾"},{"start":3284.522,"end":3294.529,"text":"那也因為台美談判的高度這個不透明性所以我們看到日韓他們在談判的過程當中他適度的揭露訊息給國民而且日韓也已經談好了關稅對等的這個15%也比台灣低"},{"start":3301.494,"end":3329.501,"text":"那我們看到這樣的情況包括日韓的協議當中也包括了這個半導體跟藥品等相關的產業的待遇也不會比其他國家差但是我們看到我們到目前為止國民產業還是不殺傻我們還是不知道到底是怎麼樣就像剛剛主委你所回答的我還是不確定感所以本期要請教政府到底什麼時候可以告訴民眾"},{"start":3330.521,"end":3350.933,"text":"可以告訴民眾到底我們的樣態是怎麼樣這個因為我沒有參與關稅談判那我只知道還在談所以我個人是蠻肯定的因為已經從32往下降了我個人期待當然是我們會從20再往下降對"},{"start":3353.325,"end":3376.02,"text":"就像您所說的 您也不清楚 民眾更不清楚那各司本職 但是您是國防會的主委所有國家的重大政策決策 您是非常重要的角色接下來本席要請教 除了您也是企業界出身那我們知道不確定感對產業的衝擊是非常的大"},{"start":3376.98,"end":3403.766,"text":"更何況我們對於對等關稅半導體關稅美豬牛農產品市場是不是要開放投資美國的金額都沒有一個方向一個確定感那麼外媒更有報導美方的談判代表正在像擠檸檬一樣壓榨台灣正在這麼做美國想要台灣全面的開放市場我希望不是如此請問"},{"start":3406.687,"end":3431.719,"text":"請問會是如此嗎應該這樣講現在外面的新聞都是沒有參與談判的人在講的那我太太以前就是做WTO談判的就我了解這些都是機密都不可能因為談判是見光死所以沒有人我想商業談判也是一樣的沒有人會把底線跟想法拿出來當然談判有必要的秘密但是也要適度的讓民眾來了解跟安心對不對"},{"start":3435.7,"end":3459.332,"text":"我想放心的部分是台灣的中長期轉型我們往AI為主那像譬如說以台中的工具機它應該是產品的AI高質化那供應鏈的AI化生產的AI化降低成本這些可能是一個更重要的事因為不管關稅怎麼變動企業的轉型都要做所以我們現在就是有一個AI對 關稅怎麼變動都是針對於我們產業非常關鍵"},{"start":3464.415,"end":3471.26,"text":"是非常關鍵不要把它不當一回事這是非常關鍵的所以本席要再來請教因為我們面臨到關稅的這個重大問題那麼我們現在普發現金普發現金普發現金本席要請教7月11號三讀通過了那麼預計在這個條例裡頭總統也公告是在10月底要普發現金所以本席要請教現在也有說要排附的"},{"start":3494.435,"end":3501.898,"text":"既然不服役 什麼時候要做那麼本席要請教不服役 我們什麼時候要做這個總統公告了嘛那整個決策當然還是在預言那"},{"start":3514.373,"end":3532.788,"text":"因為我並沒有參與到這一段所以又有媒體說要排富那麼行政院到底規劃怎麼樣再也推動產業的一個協助普範現金對於我們整個緩解物價高的壓力是非常的重要所以以前"},{"start":3533.268,"end":3535.288,"text":"以前蔡英文總統的時候也曾經發過振興券發過現金馬英九總統時候也發過消費券那現在我們既然法案已經通過總統也公告了本市要請教就您國防會的立場你同意普發現金一萬塊嗎我的立場是這樣我們第一次發消費券的時候是經濟"},{"start":3555.613,"end":3576.668,"text":"在馬英九時代的確景氣很差的時候當時也是從國安會來initial這個事情的但那時候是景氣非常非常差那後面所產生的三倍捐贈跟五倍捐贈是因為我們財政盈餘很多那利用財政盈餘給的那我們現在的狀況是我們上半年6.7%以上的GDP成長率我們的經濟狀況是好的"},{"start":3579.41,"end":3586.955,"text":"那現在是有財政剩餘的部分剛好我們就要拿來用來協助大家渡過關稅難題我們希望渡過關稅 但這筆錢如果拿來協助關稅的議題讓經濟能夠更好可能我認為會普發來得更好因為過去看起來的效果並沒有振興經濟的效果"},{"start":3600.184,"end":3608.53,"text":"提供更好的就業機會來得好所以如果依照主委你的說法你是不贊同普發我沒有不贊同是說我講的是排序因為蘇貞昌排序的部分我們應該是想以正行經濟協助產業度過關稅難關幫助國防安全為優先"},{"start":3620.718,"end":3623.741,"text":"所以蘇貞昌院長曾經說普範現金是全民共享經濟成長的一個果實陳建仁院長也說他可以鼓勵消費振興台灣內需的產業我們希望苦民所苦剛剛我們談到的也就是怎麼樣產業振興從880億到本期一直強調"},{"start":3640.975,"end":3664.953,"text":"絕對不夠到930億我也跟郭部長一直在討論現在我們又希望能夠好好的來協助我們的產業尤其在中部地區工具機、手工具機機械零組件、扣件等木工機等自行車業都在中部地區當然主委你也關心這些產業所以在你一桌內要提出如何協助我們產業的這個數字我們拭目以待"},{"start":3668.436,"end":3688.068,"text":"好好的來協助委員我也補充一下您剛剛講對了我們工具機這些產業都需要幫忙原因是我們有兩個指數一個是生產指數來看未來的生產的狀態的確它是比較比之前期是低的但是消費的部分的指數是往上拉的那往上拉的代表民間消費力道是夠強的"},{"start":3689.429,"end":3694.932,"text":"所以這筆錢要不要再拿?對 你下鄉去看一看啦物價高的一個壓力已經讓人民喘不過氣來了普殺現金一萬元刺激國內的產業的經濟輪動讓人民好生活苦民所苦啦好不好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請邱毅英委員做尋答"},{"start":3722.682,"end":3725.784,"text":"我想您今天準備的報告的內容我不曉得您有沒有看了一下他的題目是什麼我們今天來"},{"start":3747.765,"end":3755.972,"text":"主席排定的議程的題目是什麼你知道嗎談的是未來經濟未來的經濟狀況你看到是後面我看的是前面"},{"start":3757.366,"end":3785.531,"text":"他的主軸是美國對等關稅抵定之後目前還沒有抵定是嗎好所以你這一份報告內容寫的是抵定之後對於台灣的未來景氣跟全球佈局的規劃對不對那現在你剛剛一直在講剛剛楊卓英委員一直問您你一直講關稅還沒有談定確實關稅是還沒有談定所以在關稅還沒有談定之前您今天的報告的內容"},{"start":3787.092,"end":3808.943,"text":"會跟國內的整個局勢跟關稅抵定之後的報告內容會有什麼差異我讓您補充說明一下因為你現在這個題目設定是在關稅抵定之後的發展跟規劃關稅還沒有談定之前會有什麼差別我認為抵定之後呢所有的景氣跟數字會更好"},{"start":3809.773,"end":3827.188,"text":"你認為關稅抵定之後景氣跟數字會更好對的你為什麼會有這樣的信心這個主委我想要談一下因為大家都對於台灣的關稅能夠降到多少其實有非常高的期待從4月份講到美國這個總統講32一直到上個禮拜的20"},{"start":3832.313,"end":3841.161,"text":"但是日韓是15所以有很多在野黨的委員啊或者是有很多人士就來批評說那台灣談的成績並不好但是我們現在告訴大家這個是暫時性的很多人認為說這個是台灣棠色的政府棠色的語言"},{"start":3850.189,"end":3872.463,"text":"所以他到底是不是暫時性到底還有沒有繼續再談繼續談的空間在哪裡包括川普在今天的清晨台灣的時間清晨講到要對半導體開徵100%的關稅除非在美設廠這一句是很重要很多的媒體只有講前面前面一段就是要對半導體開徵100%但是在美設廠這一件事情是很重要"},{"start":3878.687,"end":3892.734,"text":"所以這個如果整個語句完整來看的話對於台積電的影響是什麼台積電看起來應該是沒有影響因為台積電未來是要在美國設廠但是對於台灣其他的半導體的業者來說"},{"start":3895.051,"end":3909.038,"text":"可能會有影響那會不會加劇他們往美國去投資的這個方向你們的評估報告裡頭有沒有包含這個部分主委我讓你說明一下這個部分其實現在台"},{"start":3910.519,"end":3927.091,"text":"它是設廠跟承諾設廠那我們現在有幾種設廠方式以台積電是直接去建廠像中美金是併購透過併購在德州另外我們也看到聯電跟Intel有一些合作案"},{"start":3928.192,"end":3955.84,"text":"我的經驗他也可以透過這個合作的方式來取得關稅的結面對去合作那剩下的部分要有承諾了那承諾的部分就看大家但是我們之前曾經跟這些廠商做過一次座談他們認為台灣的競爭力是夠強的那如果今天大家都在一樣的關稅基礎下以現在來看是大家都在100億的情況下其實大家的競爭是一致的"},{"start":3956.604,"end":3972.094,"text":"所以你認為台灣的競爭力是夠強所以不用擔心這個所謂現在的半導體開徵100%對我認為第一名如果都擔心第二名就會害怕主委但是我想要更進一步請教根據美國的這個貿易擴張法第232條這個"},{"start":3976.997,"end":4000.773,"text":"你雖然現在講說我們的半導體業者其實是不用擔心但是其他跟這個所謂的美國國安或者是產業安全有相關的這一些產業甚至或者是有裝有晶片的產品未來是不是都有可能被課到稅所以這個有可能包含筆電伺服器手機網通設備網路通訊設備跟家電等等"},{"start":4003.855,"end":4017.548,"text":"這一些有沒有可能會在232條的這個限制之下未來他有可能被課到高的這個關稅那就這個部分政府有什麼因應的措施或者是你們有什麼研判這個部分的確"},{"start":4020.291,"end":4044.731,"text":"這幾個現在是列在232還沒有公告所以我們現在做了兩個方案一個是短期短期緊急的時候只能像進急診室一樣我們是應急的方案我目前是編列了951的特別預算希望能夠通過但是我個人的看法如果這個再加劇到含晶片之終端設備的話那我們可能要擴大我們的特別預算"},{"start":4045.611,"end":4067.724,"text":"所以你說擴大特別預算是擴大我們的這個產業韌性的這個條例的預算嗎那第二個部分是中長期的部分中長期的部分就是當產業面臨這個就要開始進行佈局的轉型那我們現在國家政策本來就希望立足台灣這個佈局全球那我們也會協助廠商盡量去做全球的佈局去分散他的風險或者是降低他的風險"},{"start":4068.624,"end":4096.588,"text":"那我們現在也有一個完整的計畫在已經準備好了那我們可以有實時公告我們已經送抱怨了所以在短期、中期、長期我們目前是有因應的做法那但是會不會這個會不會有影響呢還是要影響有多少還是要看最後的公告那它現在是沒有公告因為它這裡面牽扯兩件事情這幾個產品是在豁免清單就在WTO豁免清單裡面"},{"start":4097.569,"end":4125.375,"text":"那在232裡面他會怎麼因應這還是一個所以這個還是很大的不確定性所以那你們有沒有設定一個底線當然我知道在談判的過程裡頭很多的底線是不能現在對外說那你們有沒有設定一個什麼樣的底線或者是說找這一些廠商這一些業者來大家共同討論一下聽一下他們的心聲他們在現在面臨到這樣未來有可能被課稅或者是說"},{"start":4126.135,"end":4143.399,"text":"整體現在的這個關稅的衝擊狀態之下政府有沒有充分的了解掌握廠商的心聲甚至我們有沒有設下一個什麼樣的底線是在跟美方在做談判的時候雙方其實是可以"},{"start":4144.437,"end":4173.074,"text":"是的有的我們有抓住至少對於我們自己廠商的保護那個底線有沒有抓住有的那大部分以SERVER來講大部分的廠商都是比較大型的那我們可以看到在上半年我們面對到墨西哥我們成長了200%多那因為主要是大家的SERVER廠現在放在墨西哥那主要是USDNA那可以得到保障那第二個部分是我的瞭解大家現在開始往達拉斯開始在進行佈局"},{"start":4174.395,"end":4193.132,"text":"那因為這樣的關係經濟部也去談了那目前在談什麼呢 談希望能夠讓台商在達拉斯德州的布局裡面得以免週稅那目前是得到州長的回應那眾議院也有通過 要等他的參議院 州參議院通過"},{"start":4193.892,"end":4218.788,"text":"所以這些我們都積極在協助大家往這條路走那中小型的企業目前他們的想法是因為它規模比較小那去的話是不是能變成一個整合型的公司就產業控股公司過去那這樣的話本來這種小公司要單獨去面對政府會很麻煩那合併成一家公司公司變成部門的話就比較容易或是集團那所以呢我們也修訂了這個企業併購法"},{"start":4221.19,"end":4237.588,"text":"讓這些廠商在併購的過程中沒有成本增加在五年的寬險期本來是併購會要繳稅那現在併購沒有繳稅所以他們可以進行合併然後到海外發展因為他需要比較大的資本所以這些我們都有做好規劃跟業者都溝通過"},{"start":4238.154,"end":4244.442,"text":"主委我再問一個小問題那至於藥品呢生技產業有沒有列入你們的保護清單裡頭現在藥品要被課到未來有可能會被課到250%的稅那生技的這個生技的產業"},{"start":4253.813,"end":4269.144,"text":"有沒有列入你們的所謂的保護清單裡頭就生技的部分因為我們剛剛一直談的大概都是跟半導體有關嘛生技產業的部分呢我們的短中期跟我剛才談的我們免收稅這些都是沒有產業的限制的"},{"start":4269.644,"end":4289.313,"text":"都是沒有產業限制的我們是所有的產業都要保護啦所以我們所有的產業都把它納入那至於未來可能會被課高關稅的部分其實你的保護力道或者是你的輔導力道應該是要再更加強嗎而且我們已經有一個清單以您提的這個製藥業來講有哪些在美國有佈局的我們現在清單都在手上那有一些沒有的它的外銷比重比例這個經濟部也都整理出來了好"},{"start":4299.358,"end":4323.839,"text":"那目前都在手上所以因為我的時間已經到我也不要耽誤大家太多時間但是我想國發會在對於整個在關稅的談判的這個過程裡面所有的追蹤管考跟對於國內產業經濟的衝擊我想還是一直要不斷的滾動性的去修正所以你們今天來的這一份報告其實不叫關稅抵定之後的報告因為現在關稅還沒抵定"},{"start":4325.34,"end":4343.655,"text":"真的抵定之後的衝擊包括內容實質的內容是什麼到時候真的可能還是需要國發會再來到立法院裡頭再做更進一步詳盡的報告因為那個時候其實談判如果都確實結束之後就沒有什麼保密的條款在裡頭了其實國發會更應該開誠布公的讓"},{"start":4346.817,"end":4365.034,"text":"國內的業者也好或者是國內的整體的產業都要很清楚的知道政府到底能夠為我們做一些什麼事情能夠保護我們的產業到什麼樣的程度或者是能夠協助台灣的產業到什麼樣的程度我覺得那個部分可能要請國發會都要隨時密切的掌控好不好好的好 謝謝現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢問"},{"start":4377.107,"end":4377.628,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請那個劉書偉劉書偉"},{"start":4387.451,"end":4407.704,"text":"對 我先請教一個 今天中午正式就會生效 台美的部分先雖然我們現在是暫時性的 中午生效20%的部分先生效 其實其他國家也都是這樣因為我們現在談的叫做暫時性的關稅 表示接下來還會繼續談"},{"start":4409.765,"end":4424.336,"text":"什麼時候會有最後筆定的一個時間這個是談判代表跟這個院在談但是我有被徵詢一些議題所以我很確定他還在進行中還在談判當中當然我們希望後面還會再講但是"},{"start":4429.58,"end":4445.322,"text":"今天因為中午就開始生效了所以相關的因應措施跟準備其實也都一定要啟動了因為這個一旦生效馬上就直接會有相關的影響就會產生那我先確定一下因為早上最早的消息知道就是"},{"start":4446.763,"end":4465.939,"text":"半導體的部分當然關稅是百分之百但是他也有提到如果你有去投資的計畫或即將投資的話那就零就是零那台積電這樣看來是零因為台積電已經在美國做投資所以台積電目前看起來其實是會是零的部分這對台灣來說當然是一個好的消息對因為他的比重比較大"},{"start":4467.019,"end":4483.992,"text":"那這個台積電因為我們看了有幾個廠都在進行 未來也在投資但是還有其他的部分因為台灣跟美國我們畢竟還是前十大的貿易國那從去年來看的話台美之間的貿易順差"},{"start":4486.574,"end":4502.166,"text":"還是前六大 第六大所以其實這個問題顯然我們必須跟美國也做一個好的處理我想川普也會要求跟台灣進行處理那我們看我們周邊的其實像南韓 像日本他們大概都已經初步談定了那裡面大概"},{"start":4505.888,"end":4528.783,"text":"形式上一個是投資像南韓是投資美國3500億美金那像日本是投資5500億美金那台灣是不是也會朝這個方向在進行如果就川普這兩天的訊息出來的話這個我不清楚但是就我來看我們的GDP的總值是低於南韓的那"},{"start":4534.02,"end":4561.218,"text":"這個如果用GDP比重來看投資的話理論上台灣的投資應該還是不可能比高過這些國家啦對如果照這樣來看以日本台灣南韓來看的話其實我們已經也盡了相當大的一個努力了在整個平衡整個貿易的逆差的部分做了相當大的一個努力那所以接下來如果台灣有更多的一些投資方案其實看來很多不管是從包括"},{"start":4562.429,"end":4574.53,"text":"汽車甚至半導體慢慢抵定了之後包括汽車甚至於投資不管是天然氣或投資其他的部分的話那有機會經過這樣的方式的話讓台灣的關稅有機會再降低嗎主委怎麼看"},{"start":4575.578,"end":4597.524,"text":"我是認為很有機會的原因是第一個我們台灣代表處其實大家準備的非常充分那第二個事情是這些團隊也蠻優秀的所以我認為應該會有很好的結果那如果按照日美跟韓美之間的看法的話他們是會先降到一個中間暫時性關稅再往下"},{"start":4599.204,"end":4620.712,"text":"那我們看起來我們的路徑也在接近也正在一個中間路徑所以台灣的趨勢也是照這樣從32到20再20有可能再往下降也許降到類似15日韓越南都是這樣的路徑對那如果是15的話至少在日本跟南韓之間的話但大家的就站這個比較一樣的一個基礎點上面去競爭對台灣的衝擊相對上就會比較小"},{"start":4624.913,"end":4639.931,"text":"所以我們大概還是朝這個目標在努力那主委看起來是樂觀的朝樂觀的方向在看的我們是這樣我們準備的時候風險角度不能樂觀我們就要有版本但是談判結果我們是朝樂觀方向看"},{"start":4640.492,"end":4666.767,"text":"也一定要朝這個方向去做努力這也必然是另外當然有些擔憂的是息產地的問題其實像包括像印尼、越南等等其實都有息產地這個台灣也必須要做萬全的一些準備因為一旦被認定為你是在息產地的話那這個大概就會被又被拉高起來這個部分我想政府應該都做了萬全的準備這個經濟部已經做了一些措施然後進行比較大的管控"},{"start":4668.612,"end":4692.758,"text":"所以我了解經濟部是我也希望國發會持續的關注這樣啦因為畢竟它影響到國家整體的未來的競爭力那國發會站在整個更更高的一個高度上面其實要去不斷去控管跟注意這樣的一個事項那其實台美這六年來其實增加了十倍啦其實確實增長的速度相當快那所以這個大概也是我們要去面臨的問題啦一年將近接近700億700億"},{"start":4695.818,"end":4718.366,"text":"這樣的一個這個貿易的順差我們順差他們是逆差所以這個也是台灣一定要去面對的問題所以我想這個也希望後續的談判結果能夠跟一方面是對台灣的產業的衝擊降到最低那一方面也希望台美的關係更加的穩固我想這是同樣努力的一個目標"},{"start":4719.66,"end":4741.211,"text":"主委應該是朝這樣的看法吧是的好我們希望努力那另外是我想問一下那接下來其實我們談判即將底定了那我們現在處理的大概是用930億的方式來做那剛剛其實主委也提到這個原先最早的規劃就用930億那如果以現在這樣狀況下"},{"start":4742.732,"end":4764.432,"text":"會再增加嗎?就是對於整個產業的支持跟照顧跟協助部分會再做一些增加嗎?以現在來看因為當時是以現在來看應該這個是會滾動式調整那現在來看在我們經濟能力上這個應該是可以先往前走應該是推動應該是夠但是還要看後面的變動"},{"start":4766.093,"end":4780.841,"text":"現在暫定用930億來推啦但是後面隨時在做滾動式的檢討但如果隨時有需要的時候我們隨時可以再來做追加的部分然後給予尤其我們有很大的金額是在支持它出貨的成本"},{"start":4781.661,"end":4806.924,"text":"那因為他需要被支持 那那個出貨量越大 我們的支持金額就會往上拉這個隨著談判的結果出來之後 越來越清楚的出來之後那當然就會有更明確的一些 就是現在這樣子做 這樣子來列但是將來談判結果更明確的出來之後 我們當然就有更明確的一些做法那當然還不足 還不夠的部分"},{"start":4807.584,"end":4828.94,"text":"政府也持續我們會再來調整我想政府挺企業這件事情是沒有問題的這個是絕對沒有問題而且政府挺農漁民這件事情也是沒有問題這是絕對的所以我想這樣的態度至少讓國人放心就是說我們努力的談到最好的結果但是談完之後如果任何受到影響的產業那政府也絕對會挺相關的產業跟農漁民到底這裡面除了這個產業農業經濟的產業以外還有就是這個穩定就業的部分"},{"start":4837.326,"end":4860.481,"text":"對 這個都要持續來進行 這也是政府的主要目的那我再問 那裡面我看到報告裡面 就是政府還是會維持在今年GDP成長3%這樣的一個目標嘛 是不是對 現在是很有信心啦 應該沒有太大問題因為上半年看起來狀況是相當的不錯啦對 然後下半年主要有兩個支柱會產生啦 一個是手機的拉貨潮 第二個是那個"},{"start":4861.441,"end":4877.967,"text":"AI那個這個GP300的新model的儲貨這兩塊都會帶動那我們希望國發會跟各部會密切的注意那我們來看一下燈號的部分其實是到5月6月其實已經進入到了綠燈所以在景氣上面主委擔憂嗎這樣的狀況"},{"start":4879.668,"end":4906.085,"text":"現在景氣狀況是進入我們稱為穩定期綠燈是穩定期那我們是審慎的去規劃後面所以我們才會有擴大內需希望來推動擴大內需來把下半年如果有什麼比較大的變化的話可以所以下半年的景氣狀況主委怎麼看待下半年景氣其實是一個值得關注就是我們還是很謹慎去觀察"},{"start":4907.543,"end":4928.364,"text":"那趨勢上呢就國發會的你們的評估跟判斷呢因為你們的評估判斷會影響到怎麼樣去投入這些相關的資源趨勢上應該會跟去年接近啦就是說會比上半年差但跟去年接近就是說等於是成長力道相較於去年大概會在1.1%或是1.多的一個狀況"},{"start":4931.886,"end":4954.819,"text":"好 我們希望整個密切注意這樣一個狀況好不好也請國防會持續的在這所以會相較下半年 去年下半年有微幅成長就沒有那麼大幅度的我們現在這個是已經是大概應該是全世界最好的上半年對 但是下半年部分還是要請持續的關注這樣一個狀況好 謝謝主委 辛苦了好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢答"},{"start":4967.182,"end":4968.502,"text":"我們是請主委今天川普總統在"},{"start":4982.489,"end":4999.735,"text":"我們臺灣凌晨四點半的部分發布了這個消息其實大家原本以為是下個禮拜可是他提早把這樣的聲音丟出來那這個聲音丟出來之後主委你認為對於我們臺灣的半導體產業有什麼影響"},{"start":5005.883,"end":5018.054,"text":"台灣半導體產業大部分的晶片是輸到組裝廠去大部分不在美國 只有少部分那目前原來我們看到去年是74億美金"},{"start":5019.775,"end":5049.069,"text":"那44億美金如果扣掉台積電再把中美經營在美國也有扣下來的話大概應該會在60不到61美金接近61美金的數字在我們出口的總額應該是百分之應該是1.12啦1.12 對那所以你認為它的衝擊力呢它的衝擊力大概就是以我們可以用61美金來看它的衝擊可是事實上並沒有那麼高的原因我解釋一下就是說"},{"start":5050.292,"end":5065.147,"text":"除了我們剛剛講在美國有廠的廠商之外我們現在還有人是跟Intel合作嘛他也可以跟Intel談合作那另外很明顯我們有建廠跟併購兩種有些企業也可以進行併購快速的進去只要有承諾就可以嘛"},{"start":5065.567,"end":5086.265,"text":"那有實現就沒有實現就要再退這段期間的關稅所以呢大的廠應該會有一些佈局跟動作那我跟我們佈局台灣跟台灣佈局全球一樣嘛那這個政策是一樣我們會支持他那另外我們在德州也幫也正在努力想幫大家拿到的爭取這個我們正在爭取這個"},{"start":5087.226,"end":5111.954,"text":"零週稅的機會目前至少州長是對我們很支持所以這些都開始在佈局那另外一次我們之前跟廠商開會的時候大部分廠商都說他們其實第一個可全球佈局第二個事情只要那個時候多數廠商的表達是說只要他的競爭對手也是課一樣的稅的話"},{"start":5113.194,"end":5128.529,"text":"他們的競爭力是一樣的還是一樣的所以他們認為如果只要是一樣它就沒有很大的差異那現在我們在評估的是Global FungiGlobal Fungi比較大的代工它有一部分在美國那但是它是以8吋廠為主所以我們還在這個還要看它相對的競爭值我們現在"},{"start":5132.871,"end":5136.415,"text":"今天早上我其實發了一些訊息給到相關的協會我們希望盡快的請他們幫我們蒐集出來這個影響應該是非常小因為Global Funding跟台廠之間沒有那麼強的競爭我覺得因為今天川普已經在"},{"start":5150.57,"end":5163.639,"text":"這個臺灣時間凌晨四點半做了這樣的一個宣布就是說半導體要開徵百分之百的關稅除非你是在美國設廠我想他今天會講出這個大概也差不多是這個方向了對還有承諾在美國設廠"},{"start":5164.88,"end":5186.34,"text":"對就是說在美國設廠可能就排除在這之外那我必須說是不是因為這個樣子所以其實在昨天川普他有說了一個所謂台積電要再投資3000億美元那當然台積電本身已經有說了他們目前還是維持在1650億美元這樣的一個標準"},{"start":5190.322,"end":5205.484,"text":"那是不是会因为川普今天早上四点半所做的这个百分之百关税的一个问题而造成台积电在整个投资的一个范围会扩大会不会是这个样子"},{"start":5206.207,"end":5220.335,"text":"這個我們還是要尊重台積電的看法那但是我的經驗是這樣子這個沒有訂單他也不會去有訂單他才會去這是他必須對他的股東負責因為他是一個上市公司"},{"start":5221.155,"end":5249.726,"text":"所以呢台積電應該會衡量這些因素可是競爭力啊如果說他把這樣子投資他說的如果在美國市場可以排除在百分之百關稅的一個部分嘛會不會是在這樣的一個競爭力的條件之下而讓台積電有所轉移其實大家擔心的是這個狀況我的瞭解台積電輸美的比例非常低啦因為他大概在1%出頭而已啦那所以沒有那麼大的"},{"start":5251.317,"end":5257.265,"text":"他大部分都出到組裝廠去所以主委你這個才是關鍵因為現在台積電是一個我們台灣的護國勝散"},{"start":5262.116,"end":5282.282,"text":"大家所担心的是说会不会因为这样的一个变动关税的调整而让台积电在经营的层面当中有所改变可是如果依照主委所说的其实它本身它所在这个区块影响是很少的"},{"start":5283.271,"end":5310.752,"text":"目前是這樣的對啊目前嘛可是跟著半導體開徵百分之百關稅的這個部分會不會有所變動大家擔心的是這個目前影響很少可是未來因為川普對半導體開徵百分之百關稅之後然後再競爭力的條件會有沒有可能有轉移"},{"start":5312.797,"end":5324.735,"text":"因為台積電其實有一個8吋廠在阿勒岡州加上現進製程所以他應該比他的競爭對手更佔優勢目前的狀態反而是他的優勢比較高"},{"start":5326.707,"end":5352.349,"text":"所以我覺得主委我們應該不是在於三千億兩千億一千六百五十億而是你要把我們目前對於產業別的分析告訴民眾我覺得重點兩千億三千億一千六百五十億我覺得這是一個數字可是這個數字會影響人民的信心畢竟台積電是護國神山"},{"start":5355.032,"end":5366.642,"text":"但是如果依照主委所说的依照目前台积电它的整个经营方式它其实在美国这个区块是竞争力跟各方面是影响比较少"},{"start":5367.668,"end":5392.155,"text":"如果是這樣的話 那當然他就不會思考我要去投注三千億美元我要去投注多少的一個增加資本額的一個部分所以我覺得應該把這個我們在整個產業的一個投資狀況跟發展狀況還有分布狀況跟民眾說清楚否則你糾結在這個數字人民會搞不清楚"},{"start":5393.154,"end":5415.962,"text":"好像說在這一波的一個關稅當中是不是連我們護國神山都要過去其實不是不是的對嘛其實不是目前應該只有差不多6%對嘛其實不是嘛所以如果6%跟大家腦袋裡面所想是不是哇3000億美元多少美元過去那台灣怎麼辦所以是不是的"},{"start":5416.662,"end":5439.818,"text":"我覺得我們要去講的是我們目前在針對產業當然投不投資是台積電本身他們在整個商業經營的一個範疇當中他們的思考可是我們政府是可以我們整個半導體發展的區塊我們來做分析目前就是6%"},{"start":5441.264,"end":5468.931,"text":"產能的部分對產能的部分這個產能講的是2029年的產能對產能的部分但2029年不是現在對現在它輸美的部分只有在1%上下那這個影響非常小的那未來產能擴大之後因為主要有一些組裝廠也會在墨西哥跟德州那大概大概是這樣的一個狀態所以目前就是一person目前對那在整個"},{"start":5470.541,"end":5491.908,"text":"所有的區塊做調整之後這個所謂未來的投資1650億美元增加之後我們所有看到的2029年可能影響到6%對 可是它這整個還很久因為2029年是第三場的量產2028年是四產"},{"start":5494.564,"end":5514.942,"text":"所以依照主委所分析的基本上它的整个影响的程度其实没有我们想象的那么多那么大范围那么广因为它是全球布局的一个概念台积业还是一个企业它还是以企业经营为核心因为它还要对股东负责"},{"start":5516.215,"end":5543.357,"text":"他的资金来源是从他的股东来的那他在股市上的公司他必须要很谨慎而且很负责的去面对所以主委我觉得你今天这个讲法才能真正的让台湾人民安心否则一直我们讲的护国神山然后不断的讯息来的是说他的投资在美国投资会增加是不是我们所有的主要的"},{"start":5544.759,"end":5561.394,"text":"主要的部分都會往美國來移但並不是嘛對 它其實現在有它有八個廠在要建設或是未建設在台灣那遠比美國多很多啦所以我覺得我們要把這個最關鍵的講出來然後那個主委我要再問一下"},{"start":5564.833,"end":5584.324,"text":"這一波在美國關稅的部分其實對台南兩個部分影響最多就是蝴蝶蘭跟台灣貂這兩個是在我們所有的產業其實市占率台南是最多的是的所以在這個部分到底我們要怎麼做"},{"start":5586.285,"end":5610.323,"text":"這個部分我們有一個短期因應方案由農業部主政提出來就是我們在我們編列的900多億來協助產業跟農業那這個是在我們短期協助的方向那中長期的部分當然我們還是會慢慢的去分散市場但短期的應急我們現在是用資金來協助業者度過當前的問題"},{"start":5611.775,"end":5618.334,"text":"尤其今天早上行政院院長有提到一個叫投資台灣三大方案的2.0版"},{"start":5620.097,"end":5649.166,"text":"他要引資1.2兆這個部分裡面有一個叫貸款額度要新增貸款額度來讓企業能夠增加他的一個投資量跟他的穩定性主委這個很重要每一次都是我們有方案但是銀行端的配合度並沒有那麼好所以如果我們真的要讓他百分之百達到效果銀行端的部分你們要去溝通好"},{"start":5650.086,"end":5675.243,"text":"否則真正想用的用不到他們為了要讓你們看美化數字然後去拜託那個那個可能不需要貸款的人去貸然後真正需要貸的 貸不到我覺得這個部分是每次只要我們有這個投資方案我們得到基層的這些企業最大的反應所以我在這裡提醒一下我們的主委"},{"start":5675.603,"end":5686.653,"text":"好 我們反映給那個經管會跟經濟部對 這個部分你們既然要跨部會這個都跨部會你們跨部會再處理的時候這是很重要的謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝現在請鄭正前委員做詢答"},{"start":5703.869,"end":5705.452,"text":"謝主席 我想請一下國發會的劉主委劉主委"},{"start":5713.414,"end":5741.502,"text":"鄭委員早主委平安非常感謝今天那個主席安排美國對冷關稅抵定後我國經濟未來的景氣情況及全球佈局的新規劃那坦白說因為目前我們的對冷關稅還沒有抵定還沒有抵定那我在想說不過我們也從這個主委今天的報告當中看到了有一些新的內容包括說你講的新產業新動能跟新佈局這部分"},{"start":5742.462,"end":5763.283,"text":"我是想說先再請教一個部分就是說因為目前在整個對冷關稅當中的時候都會碰到幾個狀態就是包括投資金額的一個承諾的一個部分那我想問比方說不管台灣這邊到時候被迫或者是主動要去投資多少的金額企業的投資金額裡面算不算在這個承諾的金額裡頭"},{"start":5765.665,"end":5793.919,"text":"我并没有参与谈判但是从日本来看日本的是韩企业投资日本是韩企业对不对对他有抗一部分的那个像孙正义的投资不因为之前AIT他曾经出来讲就说企业的投资的部分可能不算在这个里头你知道这个讯息吗之前那个靖州他本来有一个新闻公布出来之后然后后来很快下架"},{"start":5794.847,"end":5810.185,"text":"你有注意到這個訊息嗎我沒有注意到這個訊息但是我有看到那個日本相關的訊息了所以日本他們是企業投資政府鼓勵企業投資也包含在這個承諾金額裡頭它是靠整個國家的投資嘛"},{"start":5813.228,"end":5832.36,"text":"OK好那這個部分我想特別問的狀態就是因為台積電就是我們去美國投資當很重要的一個部分那剛很多委員都提到因為護國神山的一個動向洞見觀瞻那因為我們國發基金其實也是目前台積電就是"},{"start":5833.18,"end":5848.503,"text":"大概最主要的實質的股東大概佔6.38%的股份其實非常的多所以我們肯定對台積金這邊也會有一些影響力那比方說今天早上川普說他就再度點名你剛才也提到第二次的點名"},{"start":5849.003,"end":5869.506,"text":"就說台積電要去投2000億那8月5號的時候台積電是直接只表示說他們要投1650億當中有350億的一個差距的時候我在想說我們國發會我們政府這邊會不會有一些什麼樣子的一個表態還是說直接還是把它推給企業就是說這企業的一個行為"},{"start":5871.229,"end":5889.851,"text":"倒不是要推給企業我們一向是支持台積電的決策因為我是董事我可能講錯什麼會造成股市的變動所以我們一般來講從公司治理是由發言人來發言我們不會對單一公司進行發言"},{"start":5891.152,"end":5911.07,"text":"那我只是如果從國安會來看今天早上的內容那今天早上的內容他其實又調整到兩千億那第二個事情是主要是他公布出來的是對台積電比較有利就是等於是台積電已經在美國設廠那他就沒有關稅反而其他的競爭者會產生關稅的問題"},{"start":5913.112,"end":5933.749,"text":"理解那台積電其實在美國有成熟製程在奧羅岡在有很早就去了然後再加上有先進製程其實目前來講是對他比較利多了我在看目前的狀態我剛才提到這個狀態就是說除了國八基金其實是台積電最重要的實質股東之外的那另外一部分就是說因為台積電對台灣確實影響大"},{"start":5935.771,"end":5959.426,"text":"目前承諾1650億美元的時候大概有5兆台幣的一個狀態那我在想說去投資基本上國際全球佈局都是好事啦只是我們也會擔心就是說再多350如果再多350億那就再多1兆台幣的狀態的時候那投資美國跟投資台灣對於我們的一個資本投資一定會有點不太一樣所以我們也希望說"},{"start":5960.426,"end":5982.808,"text":"政府在這樣子的一個事情當中說也許會有一個態度出來那讓台積電也許會變成有一個比較好的一個依靠因為有一個最新的新聞因為一大早媒體有報導就是魏哲嘉又急飛美國去那不曉得是什麼事情那我在想說因為就是目前因為整個對等關係還沒有抵定然後很多的企業其實都很"},{"start":5983.708,"end":6005.186,"text":"擔心都很著急所以就會有些不安的一些情緒在所以我想說政府這邊的態度其實會有一點點重要對安定民心的一個狀態我就肯定是重要的啦那我在想說在這邊的時候我在特別再問一個跟台積電有關的就是這幾天因為台積電的金船的先進製程二奈米製程洩密案"},{"start":6006.006,"end":6026.638,"text":"就是有工程師偷拍照要給日本的這家公司的時候當然就是台積電他的PIP做得很好這點確實是要肯定他的一個機密資訊的保護做得很好可是我在想說為什麼就是在台積電其實他們在這個"},{"start":6028.459,"end":6041.804,"text":"PIP的部分其實本來就一直都有說很好的教訓可是還是會有工程師或者高階工程師他們去做這樣的事情我不曉得我們國安這邊政府這邊有沒有特別去關注過這個事情"},{"start":6044.033,"end":6061.253,"text":"這個部分國科會因為他主掌我們關鍵機密技術的部分所以這個在國安法上面會有我們就有做了一些保護那這個案子現在也是檢調在協助調查"},{"start":6063.315,"end":6082.616,"text":"那所以呢相關的因應的團隊都出現了那就我的了解它並不是全部的資訊第二個事情是很多事情不是看一個paper就會了譬如說不可能你讀一個怎麼投棒球你就可以去打直棒它中間還有很多那台積電事實上"},{"start":6083.891,"end":6101.001,"text":"就我了解喔他是把他的機密是切一段一段一段一段的所以呢拿到一段沒辦法知道其他的部分其實也很難去所以說就是因為這樣子所以我覺得有工程師他們去冒這個險冒這個國安的一個險的時候我們就覺得很特殊"},{"start":6102.328,"end":6119.799,"text":"這個在過去很多的企業有喔,那我覺得這個案子會給很多人清楚的知道新的國安法會有12年的徒刑,我想會讓很多的工程師開始比較謹慎了,否則的話過去好多公司都發生過這種類似的,然後有跑到"},{"start":6120.539,"end":6132.098,"text":"其他國家去的都存在而且除了最高12年的一個刑責之外還有1億的一個法院那這個就讓我想這次利用這次應該會讓很多人都看到了"},{"start":6134.013,"end":6156.11,"text":"謝謝主委那我這邊再問一個就是有關於聯合再生能源這個部分因為就是去年的時候主委有特別提到說已經針對國發基金針對聯合再生啟動那個退場機制的一個狀態可是到目前為止的時候已經快要一年了那去年的8月27號已經快要一年了請問到目前的時候進度如何"},{"start":6157.859,"end":6183.107,"text":"這個我可以說明一下因為我們當時這個部分是參與私募那私募如果像我現在是規範私募在公司賺錢的時候我就要時間到就要轉成一般股那一般股就可以在股市買賣那這個當時因為他不賺錢所以就一直留在私募這個部分那私募的話就要整個批量線下交易那他要打折"},{"start":6183.607,"end":6212.263,"text":"所以我講的狀態就是2018年的時候那時候國發基金要用私募普通股的方式進場的時候因為坦白說那個時候聯合再生的那個表現其實就不是特別的好而且整個國際的一個大環境對於這個光電業的部分的時候其實也不是那麼看好所以我們當時為什麼國發基金會用私募普通股的方式進去我比較關心這決策的一個過程那我們也希望從這過程當中的時候得到一些"},{"start":6213.345,"end":6221.531,"text":"教訓就是我們在做這樣子的一個投資的一個決策過程當中的時候會不會有一些更好的一個機制更透明的一個機制在"},{"start":6224.402,"end":6245.189,"text":"當時因為它本身就是發行私募那第二次增資我們就是普通股那普通股其實我們有在傾那私募要找買家是比較辛苦一點那的確我們目前的進度是不好的那第二個原因是我們在委員會核定的價格也比較高不符合一般私募的要求"},{"start":6246.829,"end":6267.928,"text":"那因為我們是獨立性的委員會那國發基金請委員弄的合訂以後我們就是依據這個價格進行找買主那我們是有委託兩次其實都非常辛苦那我們現在是這樣子任何的特別股跟私募都要經過我先看過來合訂那我得看到特別股的條件"},{"start":6269.309,"end":6282.316,"text":"那我們我們比以前還謹慎第二個部分我們也開始我也要求所有的我們都檢核一遍然後就是說只要能夠吻合轉換的我們就一律都轉換那這樣的話就可以在公開市場進行來來來拋售"},{"start":6286.281,"end":6313.256,"text":"謝謝主委因為今天報告當中有特別提到了就是那個在整個新動能的部分有提到提升投資動能那裡面提到了一個那個均衡台灣的一個六大區域產業生活圈的部分那因為之前在賴總統24年選舉之前的時候特別提到桃竹苗大細股計畫這部分那我也非常的關注那我想說因為這東西我想說國發會這邊肯定有些管考的一個計畫"},{"start":6314.096,"end":6327.371,"text":"那我在想說這個桃園大細股計畫的時候後續的進度如何然後會不會這四年當中都還是只是留於一個口號的狀態所以我比較關注的是它的一個具體的一個進度"},{"start":6329.733,"end":6346.078,"text":"跟委員報告我們這次我們除了這個我們六大區域裡面的桃竹苗大溪谷是第一個死刑案例那我們其實做了兩件事還做了區域治理什麼區域治理就是說我們當時邀請過桃園市長新竹縣長新竹市長"},{"start":6351.4,"end":6374.579,"text":"苗栗縣長一起到我們國發會來那我們跟他們說明整個計畫因為這裡面含中央跟地方要一起搭配那尤其地方要搭配的是比較屬於生態系的部分包括住宅也好 商場也好那中央還有學校 有醫院等等那我們就大家一起"},{"start":6375.74,"end":6400.762,"text":"把這個計畫做一個商討以後我們建了一個平台是由我們的副主委跟他們的副市長跟縣長大家進行溝通所以就會產生就是說像中央的交通建設我們會做地方的他們要進行規劃那就大家在這個平台上一起在談討所以新竹市也會有新竹市政府當時代理市長也有來那他們也會依據這個部分開始往下規劃"},{"start":6402.483,"end":6423.228,"text":"我們這個平台是他有遇到困難我們會來探討好 謝謝主委那我在想這個部分是我們希望說能夠有具體一個進度然後主委把它落實下來然後盡速把它落實下來再盡快看怎麼樣大家可以從中央跟地方之間大家來落實套住那大旗鼓好 謝謝主委主委平安 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請鄭天才委員做詢問"},{"start":6445.143,"end":6460.479,"text":"主席有請主委劉主委好主委好好辛苦了好今天談這個關稅這個以國發會的今天的報告"},{"start":6467.603,"end":6482.649,"text":"這個美國川普總統4月2號依國際緊急經濟潛力法至今年的4月5號對所有國家加徵10%對等關稅在這樣的一個這幾個月的過程當中對台灣"},{"start":6489.696,"end":6506.98,"text":"有什麼樣的影響嗎?對產業產業其實一開始是惶恐那後來大家就會利用8月1號的空檔就是加速出貨所以很多產業就大部分都在出貨潮"},{"start":6509.361,"end":6526.39,"text":"那當然有一部分比較弱勢的產業還是辛苦的在度過了像工具機這些的所以剛好是一個兩面的狀態一組是非常好的出貨那也造成我們上半年的出口增加了非常多將近25%"},{"start":6528.931,"end":6551.927,"text":"那這個但是還有一些產業是非常辛苦那經濟部也很積極的跟他們溝通在協助那有些產業有些產業是像鋼鐵鋁都加了50%那這個一開始大家覺得衝擊很大後來經濟部去訪談下來大家反而更在意的是匯率不是在於那50%因為全世界都是50%它的對手也是50%的時候它的競爭並沒有改變所以等於是多種樣貌在產生在產業裡面"},{"start":6562.421,"end":6585.627,"text":"這個那現在就是說這個32%降至20%我們雖然是稱為暫時性稅率但是因為要繼續談你說要繼續談那到底這個暫時性是多久不知道吧對不對就看談的狀況所以這個部分是一個"},{"start":6588.362,"end":6610.796,"text":"需要繼續去加油的地方是的那我們看這個當初啊這個提出這個特別條例的時候930億當然一開始是800多億了後面諮詢希望能夠提高送來的是930億所以當初這個930億對產業的這個支持方案"},{"start":6617.658,"end":6643.835,"text":"當初是以32%來規劃的還是20%來規劃的當時是以32%來規劃的所以基本上這個經費目前應該是因應但是我們因為這個部分當時是依據財政的能力但是我們當然希望力度越大越好我記得當時很多委員都希望再增加"},{"start":6645.276,"end":6670.971,"text":"事實上沒有錯所以反而可以更加更強力的支持產業度過難關好這個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例在8月1號已經公佈施行了這個特別預算還是要送來立法院你的了解行政院什麼時候會送來"},{"start":6673.764,"end":6691.475,"text":"我們昨天有討論那還是院會做決定我不在我們秘密處女院最後決定是何時送這個要請主委去建議院長我的建議是"},{"start":6692.642,"end":6717.18,"text":"越快送來是越好好的就因為還要審議嘛立法院還要審議是的是的啊所以知道立法院審議的過程也不確定對不對要從是這個委員會而且還是跨委員會的嘛對不對然後還送到院會之前還有什麼朝野協商啊所以相關的部分這個應該是說話"},{"start":6721.048,"end":6742.091,"text":"還是要早一點送來萬一不得已的時候還有其他途徑嘛這個特別條例本來就有一個因應的途徑或者是再用最佳預算什麼之類的都可以反正當初這個你早一點核定因為現在已經"},{"start":6743.815,"end":6760.097,"text":"雖然是叫30信啦事實上已經20%了嘛對不對現在啊中午嘛中午今天中午之後嘛對對啊所以他一定有影響啦所以這個部分這個請主委介意行政院店長趕快"},{"start":6762.792,"end":6790.606,"text":"所以今天早上宴會沒有列這個我在這裡我沒有參加宴會不是有沒有列提子昨天就知道就說到這個行政院的議程昨天就發出去了所以這個我常常在當公務員的時候也會收到行政院的那個會議通知好這個不管怎麼樣夜早特別預算夜早通過"},{"start":6791.886,"end":6794.167,"text":"時間的關係,半導體關稅達100%當然是說在那邊設產或承諾的但是從過去,從川普總統就任到現在,他常常改變"},{"start":6816.707,"end":6846.324,"text":"常常变了所以还是我们要因应的甚至是很多了好我们时间的关系我在这个你的报告里面特别提到中衡台湾这个部分针对东部提到的是漫活城乡东部漫活城乡这是一个很好的方向动点是在于我们的交通我们的交通"},{"start":6849.69,"end":6877.266,"text":"我們的交通0403地震到現在已經一年多了一年多了0403到現在為止我不斷在這裡質詢在交通委員會也質詢過最近一次724號質詢交通部長宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫"},{"start":6878.646,"end":6901.634,"text":"他這個只有從德 主要的是從德到河仁這一段1.6公里而已結果一年多了都還沒有核定現在案子還在目前是行政院交付給國發會現在交付到我們這裡那跟委員報告我們現在有些部會已經有回覆了但是還有一些部會我們還在"},{"start":6902.994,"end":6931.767,"text":"催促他们尽快恢复那我们等下回去我也会尽量跟部会的首长讨论一下我们把这个尽快能够在最短的时间送到院里面去一定要协调要请主委协调这个现在是公共工程委员会还没有答复对答复了之后你们还要开会吗原则上都会要开一次会对啊所以这个部分我的建议会议通知先发"},{"start":6933.993,"end":6951.183,"text":"會議通知先發好的好的這樣的話就他就會急著送來了好好不好好這個部分因為我們如果去對比北迴鐵路北迴鐵路我剛剛講1.6公里那個河壬到崇德這北迴鐵路79.2公里大橋22座16座的隧道對不對"},{"start":6964.793,"end":6992.058,"text":"1973年10月因為挪拉颱風重篡東部交通當時的省主席謝東敏提議當時的行政院院長兩個月就核定了所以這個部分當然跟現在不一樣但是也不能1.6公里的河輪到崇德要花一年多的時間這個效率也太那個 所以這跟"},{"start":6993.126,"end":7008.271,"text":"花東的交通有很大的關係這個部分就請諸委這個會議通知就先發然後這個還沒有送來就是公共工程委會當然他馬上就會送給你 好不好好的 謝謝好 謝謝現在請張奇凱委員做詢答"},{"start":7039.588,"end":7039.829,"text":"好 委員長"},{"start":7052.031,"end":7074.056,"text":"主委,今天台灣的時間早上凌晨四點,川普公布對我們晶片跟半導體100%我剛剛看了你的答詢,像真正的癥結是什麼?川普要的就是美國生產嘛,對不對?那相對之下,我們現在要解決的問題,是不是因為他課了這麼高的一個關稅,我們的半導體會不會外移非常嚴重?"},{"start":7075.626,"end":7091.796,"text":"他不只課這個關稅100%他有個計畫嘛 對不對他說你如果要我美國投資 對不對還是說你有投資計畫我就是領嘛那這個像在拔河啊川普都出招了他也跟你講得那麼清楚啊我要你的半導體他之前說你把我的晶片都拖走了"},{"start":7093.34,"end":7121.79,"text":"那這樣會不會導致 會不會導致台灣的半導體 現在是全州都去喔不是只有台電去喔 上中下游像這段時間你應該有知道那個整個狀況吧很多相關的業者都過去了嘛會不會因為今天的這個100%導致我們的半導體的產業更加速的外移到美國去這應該不是外移喔 我們過去有外移的情形是很多中小型的企業把這邊關掉到了別的地方去生產"},{"start":7123.01,"end":7150.599,"text":"那現在這個不是萬一是全球佈局就是他跟在台灣我們來看建設來看現在台積電一廠做完再蓋二廠但是台積電現在在高雄在嘉義這些地方都在建廠包括台中也要再建新廠其實這邊的建台積電在台灣的投資遠超過在美國的投資如果像您是專家就很清楚在三個廠去的時候大家就在看"},{"start":7151.48,"end":7170.337,"text":"這個大概產能可以佔台積電多少那時候大家估計都在6%多那事實上台積電以外銷美國來看現在在1%上下其實都沒有那麼多它不是外移它是全球布局的部分他認為外移這個字可以變成是全球布局兩種他如果把台灣關掉"},{"start":7175.101,"end":7192.762,"text":"過去就是外移就跟移民一樣有些會不會關掉關掉了有沒有關掉是個問號但是台積電所有的先進製程都在台灣那投資金額是有限的嘛對不對就是有排擠嘛例如說本來要在台灣要投資一千億嘛那因為我美國這個高關稅我只要有一半到那邊去那台灣投資當然就減少囉"},{"start":7194.563,"end":7211.371,"text":"這個您是專家一定更清楚每個企業在進行投資的時候一定會看到他的他手上的資金流量來然後看他的佈局那您對企業比較了解一定很清楚沒有一個企業會去蓋一個廠擺在那裡花一千億然後沒有人買對不對"},{"start":7212.891,"end":7237.879,"text":"所以他一定是有訂單他才會往前移動那第二個事情是他在資金的佈局上面很明顯他在台灣在建廠非常多遠比美國多很多那就很明顯他的資金的投資在這邊那台積電的資金流量一定是控制的非常嚴謹的我們做兩個非常具體的指標嘛第一個有沒有因為本來要在台灣的這個投資或者他的產能現在到美國去這是馬上看得到的喔"},{"start":7238.779,"end":7266.277,"text":"因為你是個企業你現在一定要想我在台灣生產然後在美國生產美國這邊要在台灣可能要100%那到那邊是零沒有這個我們就不用爭辯這個就未來很快就可以看得到有沒有影響到台灣的投資或者某些產業的外移委員其實這有一個證明點這個證明點就是說美國的產能有沒有人包下來美國做的有沒有人有沒有買家如果沒有"},{"start":7267.017,"end":7283.467,"text":"沒有的話就會吻合你剛才講的但如果有那就另外一個看法了那我現在的瞭解是說他是確定要有訂單他才會生產目前是這樣的狀況所以他不會有空置產能你只要看產能利用率就很清楚了我們剛剛這樣討論我要求兩個東西好不好就是未來辦"},{"start":7289.931,"end":7315.336,"text":"開始要你要去推估就是經過這百分之百這個衝擊完之後不管是外移或者是全球布局要兩個東西第一個在投資台灣的這個金額有沒有減少或是有哪些加速到美國去投資影響到台灣把這兩個做個整理好不好金額跟投資額的加速這個都很明顯很快就看得到了好不好因為這個要訪談我們大概只能訪談主要代表廠商啦因為這個蠻大的量"},{"start":7316.487,"end":7337.657,"text":"你先反彈幾個比較有代表性的好那我們更具體的你是我們國家這個公股董事台積電的公股董事嘛台積電現在面臨兩個很重要的挑戰一個是投資金額川普一直在加碼一直在加碼今天最新的他講的不是三千億喔兩千億當然也有可能再跳回去三千億不過這金額都很大"},{"start":7338.798,"end":7367.501,"text":"兩千億是增加多少?目前是1650是台積電發言人很確定的在回應數字那如果照川普講的至少要增加350億的美金350億美金是多少?一條耶中央政府總預算的三分之一耶那這筆錢是本來要投資在台灣的會不會到美國去?這個是一個考量點對不對那你的了解你是公股公股的這個董事你對於現在到底到美國投資到底是多少?"},{"start":7369.021,"end":7394.646,"text":"內部你們有沒有評估過投資就是1650目前所以雖然川普現在是喊價嗎還是已經很具體已經有跟你們要求還沒有我想這個民間的事情當然是以台積電發言人為主你也知道董事大概就沒辦法講太多但是就我的了解目前還是在1650站在公股董事的這個代表國家去你比較支持再繼續加碼嗎還是留在1650"},{"start":7397.419,"end":7425.34,"text":"我的看法是這樣子看生意了你的訂單有沒有那這個所有的企業都是照這個走啦有訂單可以賺到錢就去那第二個是我們看下來在高雄六個廠的計畫沒有變然後這個其實嘉義的廠的計畫沒有變尤其嘉義的投資其實你應該知道不只兩個廠對不對那再加上台南跟台中所以他的"},{"start":7426.161,"end":7452.094,"text":"投資量能而且您可以看到目前最先進的都在臺灣所以他不會改變那我們現在最守住的就是最先進的製程一定在臺灣所以主委我們跟全民承諾在對美國加大投資的同時臺灣一定要顧到對不對你剛講這些廠我們要顧到就是不能少只能增加最新的技術一定在臺灣你剛講新的你現在講到第二個就是我要講的第二個危機理工核心技術來"},{"start":7453.454,"end":7475.393,"text":"現在川普跟美國要求的是什麼?不是只有生價金了啦他要求Intel我們要合股對不對?要去買多少?變成49%對不對?對,這個是新聞喔所以要問公股董事啊我們台積電的公股董事啊你們內部有沒有討論過如果要去要去跟Intel做這麼大的一個投資49%欸19%"},{"start":7477.628,"end":7505.754,"text":"表示51%還是intel主導嘛為什麼要去美國為什麼要做這個要求要去救intel嘛對不對我上次國元跟你報告一下上次我就有回應到intel就造成美國的股市股價就下滑了所以我想我是不建議我們可以私下聊聊但是我不建議我們在不公開討論我們不用像經濟部長郭志輝講說合併去入股合併救他們雖然上次沒有影響到台灣但是影響到美國股價上到好多媒體"},{"start":7506.474,"end":7526.512,"text":"有內部評估可是我們還不公開啦OK好那就我們私底下再來問好來我接下來問兩個很重要的這個事情這都是你主管的重要的那個我們現在啊面臨的是美國的關稅一直在拉高可是主委你沒有發現在民進黨政府在抗中保台的同時"},{"start":7528.697,"end":7542.363,"text":"我們從中國大陸賺的錢一直在快速的下滑我可以看這個是審計部跟很多這個統計最近這五年民國109年到110年度我國出口到"},{"start":7545.524,"end":7553.608,"text":"中國大陸早說的產品出口值介於149億美元到259億美元光是最近這兩年民國110年到113年度呈現負成長少了多少18.76%一個是減了23%我們從大陸那邊賺的錢減少了將近四分之一"},{"start":7570.237,"end":7599.489,"text":"減少了四分之一那現在更恐怖的是什麼我們本來這筆錢就從美國去賺嘛我們去年從美國賺了739億對不對可是現在危機來了因為這個刀關稅衝擊川普的意思就是你賺了我的錢我要拿回來啦所以美國那邊會不會減少這是一個危機更重要的現在還要走我們不是一直在強調要去加入一些七一的經濟對不對我們看一下這個是審計部最新的決算報告他說我們政府啊"},{"start":7601.95,"end":7626.538,"text":"這個國發會應該有接到啦這是審計部的結算報告政府最近這幾年積極在推動國際經貿的這個拓展要去爭取出國產業的對外貿易的立足點的平等你看人家國與國之間都是很多都是零關稅自有貿易對不對我們已經要簽訂加入七億整合協定已經十幾年了可是現在申請加入包括CPTPP兩年到現在還沒有進來"},{"start":7627.93,"end":7652.137,"text":"沒有發現所以相對你大陸那邊ECOPA的你現在少了那麼多錢一年少了四分之一的錢從大陸賺的錢而且越來越在抗中保台越來越少結果從美國賺的錢美國現在川普出手可能會降下來你現在跟東協跟其他國家你要申請這個國際的這個冠帽的到現在進不去啊因為中國的反對我們現在這幾個全部都是中國反對"},{"start":7653.359,"end":7675.877,"text":"那如果中國不反對,我認為我們的機會都很大啦中國一定反對嘛,中國對台灣的打壓是無時不刻的你講對了,他一直在打壓我們所以呢,我們自己也要有做好準備、做好防衛啦所以注意這上面準備,而且要突破啊,人民要看你是要突破嘛"},{"start":7676.457,"end":7697.863,"text":"我剛剛講這三個點都很重要對不對中國大陸抗中保台之下收入減少了美國看起來本來是高的可是可能會往下掉因為川普出手了接下來你跟這個經濟貿易這一塊你要加入的這個國際組織現在都是停所以是不是這一塊要趕快再一突破要多加強我們會繼續努力啦但是我們不會再像打壓我們的人屈服啦"},{"start":7698.563,"end":7722.771,"text":"現在當然不能欺負啦 重點是自己要自立自強 你自己這條路要趕快去開出來現在是審計部的決算報告喔 這是要求國發會也要做改正的喔你要面對這個 你要回答審計部喔後來 最後問一個很重要的題 這幾天光電板 山也光電板 海也光電板 製縫池也光電板 農地也是光電板"},{"start":7724.244,"end":7751.446,"text":"引起了全民的抗議,現在光電板已經卡住了而且這次颱風一來破損的壞掉了,甚至有些都已經堆到這個農地上面去了民怨非常的深,我來看一下審計部怎麼講新界部他們最近提了一個報告說政府的太陽能這個光電啊這也是你管的,你本來訂一個目標嘛,對不對?訂一個目標嘛,結果審計部現在審理出來的"},{"start":7753.322,"end":7760.07,"text":"跳票 魚塞在跳票特別是在魚墊共生這一塊魚墊共生就是下面養魚上面有光電板"},{"start":7762.358,"end":7781.453,"text":"你們訂的木片到現在達成率是多少?您提到這個漁電工生我們也看到這次在家也有廠商他其實是放在他的儲存櫃跟屋頂上一個新的模式這個新的模式讓他度過了五天這個斷電的時間"},{"start":7784.275,"end":7808.547,"text":"那其實我們在台南也有廠商他們就是漁電業者這個養魚業者自己做的新型漁電工生他們自己覺得效果很好所以我們現在在試著搭配這些一起來推廣他們覺得就是養魚業者覺得比較好的模式我們希望推廣給業者達到合作另外我們也在協調我們也在協調農業部就是說過去漁電工生如果是"},{"start":7812.409,"end":7837.791,"text":"他必須要養魚的部分可以免費給到農業青年得到免費的餘溫來養魚然後達到一個三贏的角色我現在跟你講的是我們經過希望來改善那至於他的那個房台的強化我們我想我們也會找經濟部來協商看看經濟部可不可以在這個部分做一個強化那再來我們現在所有的這個光電要設置一定要經過溝通"},{"start":7839.472,"end":7867.052,"text":"才能送案那這個溝通的部分我們現在也做了比較大的改善就是說我們分兩個區一個區是在地居民一個不是在地居民那這樣的話我們可以分清楚在地人的聲音是什麼那這些都做過才申請我們要一起努力不過現在兩個最大的問題這個都是你國發會也是我們國家定下的目標一個是發電量嘛餘電共生的發電量第二個就是魚不能夠餘電共生結果魚死了"},{"start":7868.633,"end":7889.147,"text":"電才來,甚至是於此的電嚴重的缺乏,少了非常多現在兩個目標,第一個你看,這都是你定的目標,113年跟115年你定的目標的達成率,不到一半,到了115年,這個是審計部最新的結算報告大家看一下達成率只有多少"},{"start":7890.168,"end":7912.268,"text":"你本來要達成的115年底的達成率是4428MW到目前為止只達成了22.52%你整個標準只達成了大概五分之一耶 連七成都不到耶所以主委 檢討兩個事情 主委你的目標是不是定的太高誤會 還是中間出了什麼問題"},{"start":7913.902,"end":7925.419,"text":"你大概一個月好不好 一個月檢討一下為什麼打成立省 老實講你也是要回應給省紀部的啦清潔波對應你的目標我不要用打臉 就是說這個落差真的太大了當初準備訂了 然後打成立差這麼多"},{"start":7929.683,"end":7945.701,"text":"這是漁業署定的目標漁業署經你們管我們來溝通漁業署農業部提上去你們定了這個目標我們跟委員一個說我們政府國發會定這個目標漁業署定這個目標竟然達成力不到七成發電量不到七成"},{"start":7947.122,"end":7960.527,"text":"不到三成 這是多嚴重的一個事情那第二個我給你 我找他們給你一個報告那一個月內給我一份報告這個你也要回給那個審計部嘛那另外就是很多魚都死掉了"},{"start":7961.858,"end":7976.428,"text":"違反了漁電共生的原則好不好這個也是非常嚴重的這個我是問過農業部長然後省紀部這次也講也是有七成都沒有達成這個魚的養殖也並同一個月檢討好不好好謝謝好我們現在接下來請我們謝一鳳召委來質詢"},{"start":8001.325,"end":8004.338,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請劉主委主委"},{"start":8014.335,"end":8039.431,"text":"我想請教一下就是現在美國已經宣布了課徵百分之百的關稅對半導體晶片那其實我們知道很多的產品晶片不一定是它直接銷售它都是放在各項的產品裡面那未來就這些商品會不會"},{"start":8040.592,"end":8063.461,"text":"受到波及那如果受到波及的話剛才你說了可能我們的補貼或者是協助產業的預算可能要超過930億那你預估未來有可能是多少我們還要再投入多少來協助產業"},{"start":8065.473,"end":8083.66,"text":"其實我們這個是我們只是做一些準備就是我剛剛提到的我們是樂觀但是我們在做備援方案的時候我們要有不同的劇本這個是我們的準備項目之一至於會不會發生"},{"start":8085.919,"end":8108.874,"text":"我們很難去預期但是如果它真的發生會有很巨大的影響會有很巨大的影響那這個還是要看這個實際狀況所以如果含晶片的產品那美國沒有在這一次的就是232的裡面把它豁免的話對於這個整體的產業會有很大的影響是不是"},{"start":8109.514,"end":8124.138,"text":"那產業現在如果沒有辦法留在台灣你看到我們現在在台灣目前的關稅是20%日韓是15%會不會這些廠商他們會移轉到日韓去做相關的生意這個是不會的現在的20% 15%都不含這些產品這些產品是在豁免清單"},{"start":8134.921,"end":8144.461,"text":"那它如果會發生它只有一個可能它放進了232來做規範但是一旦是232的規範那就大家都會一樣"},{"start":8145.396,"end":8170.691,"text":"所以如果放在232裡面日韓的也是一樣的都一樣所以都不會受到相關的那第二個事情也跟委員報告因為台灣這種屬於這個部分的大廠幾乎都在墨西哥跟美國在佈局中那其實大家都有做很好的準備"},{"start":8171.86,"end":8201.309,"text":"是在美國跟墨西哥對現在是在達拉斯在墨西哥都是那我們也知道美墨之間的各種的協議裡面都沒有觸及到這個USDNA的部分所以呢事實上在墨西哥還是受USDNA的保障在那即使到達拉斯也是也是在美國境內那所以如果他按照這次晶片的方式來做的話我們這幾個大廠大概因為都在"},{"start":8201.989,"end":8229.255,"text":"美國境內也有投資所以影響就會比較小好那現在美國要求就是不管是要求也好暗示也好就是希望台積電能夠多投資那但是我不是以你就公司利益的角度來看這件事我是就國家未來經濟發展的角度來看這件事情未來我們怎麼樣子"},{"start":8231.315,"end":8258.108,"text":"讓台積電的優勢能夠留在台灣因為我們知道目前不管是AI產業以及其他相關你們規劃的發展都是在這樣子相關的基礎之下你怎麼樣子協助台積電讓最關鍵的技術留在台灣能夠讓下一個世代的這樣子的一個產業發展不會受到影響"},{"start":8258.948,"end":8288.284,"text":"你有什麼樣子的策略委員您問這個題目是非常非常重要的一個題目所以我們第一個我們兩件事情第一個我們在審核的時候我們對於關鍵技術最新技術我們不會讓它優先出去以台積電現在往1.4奈米的方向在走的時候它的廠目前的規劃都在台灣所以現在2奈米也在台灣其他地方也還沒有"},{"start":8288.884,"end":8307.252,"text":"所以關鍵技術我們是守得住的第二個部分它的研發有一萬多人那幾乎百分之九十幾以上都在這裡除了製程的部分以外都在台灣那關鍵的領導團隊也在台灣總部也在台灣所以基本上是絕對守得住的"},{"start":8308.339,"end":8322.779,"text":"那投資來講的話目前台灣的再建工程正在進行建設的廠也是最多的遠遠超過六個廠遠遠超過在海外的部分所以這一點我們是很有信心的"},{"start":8323.547,"end":8345.448,"text":"好那你要有信心可是问题是现在昨天就新闻就是做很大嘛就是东京的威力科创他对于我们台积电的2奈米的金属可能在某一些制程上面都是独家的制程嘛"},{"start":8345.908,"end":8372.681,"text":"可能它的光容機的那個光阻塗布啊或者是它的電晶體製成的溶科等等這都是這個台積電兩奈米的這樣關鍵製成那問題是未來怎麼樣子如果台積電跟東京的威力科創它進行訴訟會不會影響到目前我們在日本的投資呢"},{"start":8373.741,"end":8402.131,"text":"會不會這個跟在日本同時是我認為是沒有關聯性的那你講的是一般來講很多企業在進行輸送中還是會進行交易因為這是兩件事一個是針對兩個部門的事情那日本的確在特用化學等領域是全球領先的地位那其實半導體產業本來就是很多第一合在一起的我們是製造第一"},{"start":8402.731,"end":8421.096,"text":"他在化特用化學是第一那當然還有像ASMO的光刻機是第一那美國有很多的第一是兜起來的本來就是兜起來的那我們從國家的產業論性這也是我們之前有報告過我們會強化兩塊的發展一個就是特用化學的發展一個是設備的發展"},{"start":8422.316,"end":8436.839,"text":"所以我們台灣的特用化學我們想要往這裡進行突破那特用化學目前有一些我們分大廠小廠大廠大部分都比較目前是偏向後段製程的化學以走純度為第一"},{"start":8437.6,"end":8460.81,"text":"那現在有一些小廠已經開始在太空化學進行發展因為這些人都有一定的關鍵技術所以我們也一直在往這個方向來輔導那另外在設備部分我們也希望提高我們的自治率我們的目標是希望在八成以上所以我們一直在往這裡發展讓我們的整個韌性的提升會比較完整第二個一個帶動產業的發展跟更多的經濟的發展"},{"start":8464.605,"end":8492.192,"text":"那這一次的就是說關於他的那個機密被竊的這樣事件會不會影響到整個兩奈米的佈局會不會應該不會兩奈米的佈局目前只有在台灣不會有到日本目前他也沒有兩奈米的佈局他之前是在七奈米六奈米左右點那個範圍內那是二廠但二廠現在是延後了"},{"start":8493.012,"end":8504.662,"text":"那整個兩奈米佈局目前只有在台灣在高雄那下一個世代呢預計應該會在也是在台灣在中部跟南部各一目前都在規劃中了"},{"start":8506.789,"end":8528.475,"text":"好那最後我想要請問你就是說我們還有傳產的出口這個部分我們剛才講的都是半導體以及科技業的相關的產品出口那傳產的出口呢那對於傳產的出口我們知道現在對美的這個部分影響很大那怎麼樣子協助廠商"},{"start":8529.898,"end":8550.114,"text":"我們協助廠商就是我們編列的短期因應方案就是在出口的協助包括他的保險他的運輸等等我們與協助之外那我們也協助他進行研發的改造讓他的這個讓過去比較比價格的可以進到比"},{"start":8550.885,"end":8577.239,"text":"比那個技術的部分那中長期的部分我們也在AI十大建設有一個產業AI化裡面兩個重點一個重點就是三個重點第一個重點就是產品的AI化讓它的跟這個競爭會提升另外就是在它的運作流程供應鏈上還有在銷售上面都是透過AI化來協助他們來做所以我們才會有一個"},{"start":8578.74,"end":8596.772,"text":"AI運用百萬家的計畫出來希望讓大家透過AI的方式發展那我們也會給予適度的協助在經費這些方面讓他們再轉型在中長期的部分那也就是為什麼我們在中部推動那個推動這個智慧精密新核心的原因在這裡"},{"start":8597.54,"end":8615.48,"text":"我們希望政府可以持續的推動整個AI的轉型然後協助這些傳產企業能夠讓他們的產品在國際上更具競爭力才不會受到現在這一波的關稅以及匯率的影響 好不好好的 謝謝"},{"start":8634.984,"end":8644.066,"text":"現在請張家俊委員做詢答 張家俊委員不在 張家俊委員不在現在請陳昌明委員做詢答主席 現在首先有請國會我們劉志偉"},{"start":8665.516,"end":8687.385,"text":"陳委員早 劉主委早 身體有沒有比較好 有沒有壓力很大有沒有壓力很大 我討一討 拜託你拜託很久了 他就沒時間跟你記名這是桃子苗大矽谷計畫 還有苗栗縣石石溫的基金目前苗栗縣政府的用地評估已接近尾聲"},{"start":8688.926,"end":8713.779,"text":"現在就是來中央機關要協助但是當時是行政院核定你們提送的那目前苗栗縣政府有三塊的產業用地後龍的產業園區沒有問題它的主管機關就是經濟部那投入交流報那個投入科學園區裡面它是經過都市計畫變更應該也沒有問題"},{"start":8717.517,"end":8729.842,"text":"現在最大的問題就是在自然科第二期的科學研修裡面,那是非都市計畫,這裡面我們一直跟國科會一直聯絡,他不願意來當主管使館。我在這裡,我要特別請我們的劉子維,你再來幫我們協調一次。"},{"start":8741.687,"end":8762.515,"text":"協調一次的話,是看國科會要認,還是你國化會要認,還是由苗栗縣政府來認來當為主管機關的開發,不然現在到底要怎樣來決定這些而且這些計畫對苗栗縣的繁榮、發展跟進步是非常非常重要關鍵"},{"start":8764.127,"end":8774.958,"text":"我特別拜託你出面一遍 看你講的什麼其實我出面一遍過 我想看看 再想看看因為這個你都想得很久 我想說你怎麼因為這個科學園區 它只有國會會可以來做那產業園區就比較多元了"},{"start":8784.648,"end":8807.361,"text":"那科學園區在國科會的考慮點是說因為它科學園區做出來以後也要有人願意進駐嗎?我相信很多事情都有變通的方式可以那只要我們來協商一下,不然這樣後天所以我們要安排很大,已經宣布出去了,大家都在期待之中"},{"start":8808.522,"end":8832.933,"text":"好不好我們不要講困難我們要講如何解決困難的問題因為我們當初我們在整個桃竹苗大西湖計畫並沒有指明這塊地只有在這個區嘛你再講一下我聽不太清楚我們當時抱怨的桃竹苗大西湖計畫是有說到要在這裡做在這個區做但是並沒有講是這塊地或是哪一塊地也沒講時間點"},{"start":8834.693,"end":8856.193,"text":"那所以國科會的想法就是說他的地要一塊一塊的有人買他租他才會慢慢的租出去他要確定有那他才會考慮來做那第二個他們過去他們現在的做法因為他們都會因為這個要經過都更會很久尤其那裡是農業保護地那他們大部分都會找現成的地來進行"},{"start":8859.056,"end":8865.859,"text":"所以這是我們第一次協調的結果沒關係啦,我們再來想想看好,我們再來想想看,我們選一天好,我來討論好,我來解決這個問題,這樣好不好好,我拜託再來,我要跟你請教因為關於232條款晶片跟我們的電子的產業的一個計畫那現在關稅調到100%"},{"start":8888.871,"end":8911.096,"text":"原則上現在我要問行政院到底知道川普的要求是什麼?行政院說這個企業的投資不清楚不清楚說你們去問那個投資的公司台積電他最清楚你剛好是台積電的董事我第一個問題要跟你請教"},{"start":8912.856,"end":8931.646,"text":"台積電已經在美國投資1650億美金現在川普在說的是再追加3000億美金還是追加2000億美金這個是追加還是包含了1650億說得清楚我們可以了解台積電的問題台積電又導致所引起的一個對台灣的影響"},{"start":8937.582,"end":8953.871,"text":"這個部分台積電已經回應了台積電已經回應了嘛他的回應就代表公司的回應嘛你也知道當初台積電是沒有回應董事是不會去不能亂講靠發言人來講那發言人他們的發言回來"},{"start":8958.433,"end":8968.905,"text":"我想他們之前已經很清楚表達就是用他們到目前為止是1650億你台積電的董事是台灣的代表在那邊連你都不懂你們在說我們要怎麼相信我懂的就是1650億嘛"},{"start":8974.298,"end":8985.811,"text":"多少?就1650億公告的數字你意思,我是立法委,我不是經濟部長經濟部長說這個施政要給你修例到底是多少錢,要多少多少現在還不知道你們如何去談判"},{"start":8991.784,"end":9010.6,"text":"你是國安會主委,你是台灣最重要經濟的一個操盤手你不知道,我看整個台灣政府都很...委員我知道的就是1650億,這是的確...好啦好啦,你做官的人說,所以我永遠不相信這個政府連這樣就不敢說出來,到底是不是...經過董事會也是經過公司公告的嘛多少多少說嘛,讓台灣人會知道嘛"},{"start":9018.659,"end":9033.093,"text":"這是的確啦 目前我知道只有到這啦因為因為因為是講出來怕傷到臺灣的心還是怎麼樣這個實在是誠意很大這個沒有好什麼隱瞞的這沒什麼好隱瞞的我真的覺得沒有好隱瞞的"},{"start":9035.134,"end":9055.247,"text":"這裡面現在又有一個說出來台積電要跟英特爾要結合在一起那你當初回答我一句話柴油跟汽油不能合併但是可能會提示這種要求英特爾占51%台積電占49%這個情形你也不知道再上一次你國化會主委不知道這個政府就亂套了"},{"start":9063.035,"end":9078.829,"text":"委員是這樣我們在上一次的時候呢很早就傳出來那時候傳出來呢事實上是一些投資界的人傳的聲音那這個台積電也有去查證那所以這個部分我們並沒有被討論過了"},{"start":9081.251,"end":9086.614,"text":"現在有出來在這個方式在出來喔但是我們不能因為媒體的任何風聲"},{"start":9110.51,"end":9135.984,"text":"不是,這是因為很重要的事情我正是說你有兩年人蓋過問題簾,這樣你都不知道,疑問三不足這政府要怎麼叫我取信於民到現在時間已經是坦白關鍵的時刻了我跟你報告的是事實事實你說我不知道,我也沒辦法真的啦,這真的是事實啦沒有,這個事情是媒體登的包括你有"},{"start":9137.478,"end":9162.372,"text":"至少在我們沒有討論過啦好啦好啦我相信你啦我希望沒有啦再來今天你回答了一個問題那現在232的條款裡面你說台灣的競爭力很強不用擔心我們232條款100%不用擔心台灣很安全你要學習"},{"start":9164.879,"end":9171.967,"text":"其實大家最環繞的就是232條款電子產品我們的晶片"},{"start":9173.499,"end":9194.849,"text":"量子件那一些,你如果說不用煩惱,我現在想起來,所有都說對等關稅還不是最重要台灣的主要產業是在232條款裡面,你說不重要,我不曉得你信心從哪裡來委員我是針對晶片的部分,針對晶片的部分回答啦"},{"start":9195.848,"end":9215.841,"text":"那晶片的部分的確我們最主要的晶片廠商的確他在美國有設廠第二個不是我們100%是全球都100%我知道全球都有你覺得在做人家也在追大家都一樣你還講了說投資如果是1650億美金加3000億美金共同導致4600億美金你說他美國的產量才佔全球的6%"},{"start":9225.988,"end":9250.879,"text":"你相信川普的野心那些嗎?川普的野心是要全部掌控那個清偏的美國要做老大他能指揮一切只有戰略方式他就能滿足我怎麼演什麼幻想我都不曉得我講的是說到2029年這三個場因為當時大家你應該就了解2029年川普卸任了沒有?"},{"start":9252.179,"end":9256.143,"text":"針對當時大家在評估的時候我想各個業界都有評估過了那個量真的沒有很大我們只是想告訴大家台積電主要投資都在台灣"},{"start":9272.499,"end":9286.808,"text":"我告訴你主要的投資在台灣他的資料現在這幾個廠蓋完了他不蓋因為台灣的電力不夠他不敢蓋我們要承認一些事實這是他們內部的消息給我們的"},{"start":9288.007,"end":9307.073,"text":"所以說要往外蓋啊往外蓋美國的所有投資4600億對台灣有沒有幫忙委員我們都有跟台積電定期在會議對於所有的新廠需要的電力有些話你們不敢講包括道路我們都有在每個月都有在談他也已經了解台灣的電力不夠你們要相信這一點不要對台灣人只講好聽的話"},{"start":9316.291,"end":9344.423,"text":"我不會這樣喔,這的確我們在開會裡面我們對每一個廠的需求我們都在滿足啦所以到目前為止,台積電的計畫並沒有改變我是不怎麼樂觀,你們現在在共同說好聽話好,再來一個問題,你是台積電的董事二耐米台積電洩漏到日本去,只有一天的新聞星期三,今天星期四,所有新聞都沒有在"},{"start":9345.812,"end":9361.786,"text":"這很夭壽我看起來他是從台積電離開到日本公司上任叫做一家叫做TA他是半導體廠設備第三名他來切起這個機制到日本"},{"start":9363.298,"end":9377.416,"text":"那個晶片的團隊叫做REPITAS他是國家隊喔日本的國家隊做到那一邊說7月18號2奈米他們已經試做成功啊"},{"start":9378.391,"end":9402.914,"text":"你們每天都在說台灣的肥大很多現在日本的間諜也不少我看台灣已經千倉百棟載人去了我很奇怪如果是你台積電的董事你應該關心台積電這個事情怎麼今天連報紙的新聞都沒有還是日本人很會做公共的關係還是台灣政府開始在引入他這一塊"},{"start":9404.997,"end":9426.431,"text":"你跟我說 2奈米已經被拖出去 台灣政府都沒有出聲是因為日本到日本不敢出聲還是怎麼樣委員我先跟你報告他當時成立的時候是購買 就是選用IBM2奈米技術"},{"start":9427.598,"end":9451.365,"text":"那是IBM的兩奈米技術是賣給它的那第二個它的製程跟我們的製程是不一樣的我們是一個產品頭片可能就是一萬片五千片它其實廠產能只有五千片我們大部分都是五萬片以上那它為什麼只有五千片它是走客製化它可以每一片都不一樣是採用HITOUCH之前的技術"},{"start":9452.105,"end":9471.79,"text":"你說日本團隊是怎樣因為我跟這些人也算熟悉你怎麼很相信日本人講的話每一片不一樣除了做軍用他不會想擴展他的聲譽為什麼他要來拖起我們的二耐民你們都說好聽話"},{"start":9473.967,"end":9486.738,"text":"除了一天在罵對岸的連中國 日本這樣的情形連屁都不敢晃連講醫生說話都沒有 新聞整個封鎖起來我感覺得國家永遠就是三重的標準在我說日本美國也很恐怖捏他要你什麼就是絕對要你捏"},{"start":9496.672,"end":9519.88,"text":"這個我有要求台積電要做什麼進行檢討然後這個來做一定的管控那目前他的偵測技術至少這個是他主動偵測出來那台積電這個部分還是很強的啦二奈米被拿過去啊你台灣的競爭地位日本也是會很強的我們的燃料要很多從那邊來的設備從那邊來的"},{"start":9522.381,"end":9532.034,"text":"他慢慢走轉的話就載你臺灣您就很樂觀的看我這個生意是誰該想你競爭的呢有一個很難的您不要以為他們就對你好"},{"start":9533.567,"end":9554.239,"text":"有一個很難的是他做出2奈米他的良率能不能穩定在最高的良率那個是我其實我告訴你ASML的荷蘭那一家公司還沒有美國通用公司還有那個TEL三家半導體設備的廠商他們不會改進啊"},{"start":9557.864,"end":9582.276,"text":"其實給人家看了就知道我媽媽到底在想什麼我跟你講做設備的他一定會了解我怎樣去改進到最好這些資料過去了你們還在替他掩護我不知道我們的心態是什麼啊覺得政府很奇怪連鄂賴銘的技術外泄出去了你們只有看鮑達福的設備那一關難過你們每次拿它都沒關係"},{"start":9588.988,"end":9605.516,"text":"你們都沒有緊張的心理我們國科會都很認真的來參與調查不夠認真啊我看今天的報紙都沒有寫現在大家都很清楚了要是中國大陸大概要炒上一個月啊現在那在執政黨的都不敢講話我沒有看到一個人問真的真的"},{"start":9615.959,"end":9630.178,"text":"我很奇怪 你等一下問啦你在我後面啦 邱志偉你問一下為什麼鄂耐敏的機師已經外流到日本了台灣都沒有發聲只有一天的新聞第二天的新聞全部紅手"},{"start":9630.919,"end":9648.897,"text":"奇怪不奇怪委員你可以這樣看一個投手至少要五種三種以上的球路他看了一種拿書看就可以投職棒嗎其實沒有那麼簡單不是書看了就會而且他只看到一部分因為台積電是切割很多段你都聽他們講話這是事實台積電的保護就是這樣做的"},{"start":9655.987,"end":9661.629,"text":"因為這樣你們又替人家講話你為什麼說他的製程他不一定會學會日本比台灣人還笨嘛你們敗為偶像的國家什麼會比我們笨所以你們這個就是這樣阿拜台灣其實給你們這台都沒用謝謝"},{"start":9695.603,"end":9706.693,"text":"現在請邱志偉委員做詢答謝謝主席 請這個劉主委劉主委"},{"start":9717.631,"end":9723.861,"text":"今天台股早上大漲600點最主要的利多因素是什麼"},{"start":9724.942,"end":9751.915,"text":"主要是這次的晶片的這個關稅對我們比較有利為什麼會比較有利因為我們幾個大主要的像台積電中美晶在美國都有廠那我們也有些像聯電在美國都有合作那再來這個部分是全球一致的稅率就像我們是零關稅所以我們是零關稅其他國家沒有設廠的或者沒有設廠計畫的就可以百%對看一下它的原文"},{"start":9753.629,"end":9778.849,"text":"它是針對chip大概100%的這個稅率chip跟semiconductor晶片跟半導體對不對所以半導體你是這個裸晶片還是相關於半導體的相關的產品它也沒有說明清楚您從這張文字來看它的原文來看"},{"start":9779.773,"end":9799.75,"text":"它是chips還有semiconductors對 它有semiconductors那個的話就可以解釋的比較寬一點只要你那個IT中央產品裡面有包括這個半導體有包括晶片這些算不算它chips是明確的定義第二個是半導體相關的像晶圓這些"},{"start":9803.342,"end":9821.585,"text":"我認為應該這個我們還在查證那理論上應該是在Semi-conduct如果只有CHIPS那當然比較簡單對不對中美金然後聯電那麼都是不管是先進製程或成熟製程中美金不是CHIPS它是Wafer的但是因為它也在它就算有它也在美國都有設廠"},{"start":9822.981,"end":9842.754,"text":"所以股票市場的反應解讀就是我們針對這些CHIPS部分我們獲得關稅的豁免 零關稅其他國家要100%關稅所以今天股市才大漲600在某些產品上 台積電相關的成熟製程跟先進製程都有那如果半導體的話你怎麼解讀呢"},{"start":9844.755,"end":9864.482,"text":"半導體的解讀我想這個還是要去這可能要看一下美方的定義因為一般來講它會有一個定義在後面因為它還沒有正式公告這是它的預公告它的正式公告參加記者會所做的一個口頭說明它的正式公告會針對Semiconductor它會有註解"},{"start":9866.903,"end":9879.38,"text":"然後他大概是100%大概是100%對不對對所以這個我們後續觀察也是很重要對這次這個國會有沒有談判代表"},{"start":9881.652,"end":9905.334,"text":"國會的成員有沒有參與所以現在是暫時限制關稅20%那當然日本跟韓國也經過暫時限制關稅然後最後再降到15%越南也是你要搭配投資搭配開放市場大概用這種方式所以才從20%降到15%那你看一下"},{"start":9906.134,"end":9935.414,"text":"這個日本跟韓國的整體的GDP跟我們對美國的貿易利差來看日本GDP是台灣的大概五倍對那韓國也大概是台灣的兩倍兩倍多雖然我們對美國的貿易順差大概739億日本對美貿易順差685韓國660差距也不大但因為我們GDP的規模分別是日本的五分之一韓國的二分之一"},{"start":9936.254,"end":9959.304,"text":"那如果用台灣跟日本韓國的經驗來看韓國要投資五千五百億然後韓國要三千五百億之前我們有行政部門官員說四千億他已經有澄清過了那個是澄清過的不管是用國家的預算去購買或者是我們開放國內市場等等我認為"},{"start":9961.192,"end":9970.233,"text":"我們降到15%的機會是蠻大的而且我們開放或者是採購的金額啊應當不至於比照美國比照日本跟韓國因為你從GDP的水平來看"},{"start":9973.066,"end":10001.955,"text":"跟人口數來看韓國人口是台灣的兩倍對 也是2.2倍2.2倍是台灣的五倍對所以整體的影響經濟規模不一樣所以你用同樣的標準去看這個我用傳適能來判斷應當是不至於有那麼高的金額我的看法跟委員接近那我們唯一就是說我們的出口金額跟逆差是稍微不那麼高多了也沒有多很多跟日本韓國也沒有增加很多大概多了"},{"start":10003.325,"end":10028.396,"text":"50億左右當然這個我們希望說盡快最終的這個會不會簽協議就是說台美之間針對關稅會有最終的協議因為美國跟日本是沒有白紙黑字協議是沒有白紙黑字所以沒有白紙黑字會造成說它的有效性的問題或者執行性的問題"},{"start":10030.083,"end":10058.134,"text":"沒錯 因為他有之前川普有說過他會看你的執行表現對 因為他是一個動態的所以沒有白紙黑字白紙黑字是一個正式的協議它有在有效的執行的期程或者在執行的程序但你沒有白紙黑字不管是日本或者是南韓到目前談的最終的稅率都沒有白紙黑字那台灣是不是也是如此呢這個我就不清楚了"},{"start":10059.844,"end":10070.573,"text":"我想韓日都是這樣子我們大概也是這樣子所以會造成說未來執行面我們還值得去觀察因為沒有白紙黑字做一個基礎"},{"start":10073.36,"end":10090.31,"text":"另外,不管是匯率或者是關稅的不確定性,扣建產業是相當的辛苦。台灣以前是扣建產業全球第三大生產基地,特別是在我的選區在岡山入竹。"},{"start":10093.174,"end":10107.052,"text":"所以是一個全球最大的螺絲生產基地之一我最近聽到很多扣薪業者跟我很多抱怨就是說第一個匯率的影響第二個關稅的影響對他們這個不僅沒有辦法賺錢而且還虧損虧損到沒有辦法繼續經營下去"},{"start":10112.56,"end":10139.587,"text":"也逼得也許要外移這種情況我們對國化合會有很大的期待要協調各部會能夠比照我們大概三年前在疫情的時候對扣接應的協助包括貸款的展延或者是新增的融資貸款協助產業周轉資金面很大的問題"},{"start":10141.073,"end":10143.168,"text":"他沒有銷售就沒有收入嘛"},{"start":10144.813,"end":10170.541,"text":"所以這部分我期待是不是國會能夠見急旅急能夠針對這些跨部會的需要協助的部分能夠來國會來召集會議不管是經管會或者經濟部這個我們來努力看看我想也表達一下我想委員應該也看到我們總統跟院長很在意這個產業多次帶著經濟部去跟業者溝通經濟部長"},{"start":10172.521,"end":10185.732,"text":"日前也才跟業者又有座談那我們會找經濟部來看看他們有沒有什麼樣的需求就像如果是貨款等等重點是座談之後要拿出具體的做法讓產業能夠繼續穩定繼續成長"},{"start":10190.035,"end":10204.149,"text":"後面的做法就是要由國發會來統籌這個座談的結論然後去執行提出可行的規劃跟方案去執行嘛是不是這樣我們去瞭解我們來努力看看"},{"start":10205.276,"end":10228.686,"text":"所以包括有專業雜誌他有很多的政策建言他去針對台灣目前十大產值可能會萎縮最大的十大產值的產業包括這個傳統製造業他產值要萎縮大概2500億衝擊大概兩萬家的廠商而且這兩萬家的廠商都是中小企業都集中在中南部 對不對"},{"start":10230.982,"end":10251.976,"text":"這種需要政府相關的作為來協助的部分包括涵蓋四大的策略十一項作為這些作為 這些期待都是業界座談所提出來的訴求我期待這部分是不是可以請國發會能夠針對這些企業界所提出來的訴求提出這相對應的方案"},{"start":10252.74,"end":10269.957,"text":"來整合可不可以提出相對應的方案讓業界能夠安心因為經濟部已經提出來了在分工上面因為這個地方是分在經濟部我們在中長期的所以我們是協助轉型的部分我們會一起來做"},{"start":10270.638,"end":10298.662,"text":"那委員有這個要求我就來找經濟部談一下因為我一直期待說國會應該是財經小內閣來整合相關的財經部門應該是國會的這個執掌嘛因為你們在宏觀調控的能力嘛那你經濟部也許不能指揮財政部但是你國會可以站在這個宏觀經濟宏觀調控的角度來看去可以協調相關部會我是覺得應該國會要扮演更積極的功能"},{"start":10300.066,"end":10325.471,"text":"我們來努力一下 因為這個有一個分工那我們會來按照委員的指示我們來努力剛剛有委員提到就是說台積電的技術外洩當然技術外洩我們當然很慎重來看這個關於先進製程的我們的這個機密當然是非常重要特別是二奈米當然這個是很專業的那畢竟這個技術外洩這是一個事實沒有錯嘛"},{"start":10327.884,"end":10340.668,"text":"是一個事實然後它的外洩的對象也是一個確定是的那台日我們是期待台日半導體能夠合作如果是這樣子的話變成一個惡性競爭的關係"},{"start":10344.299,"end":10364.728,"text":"會不會讓台日過去半導體的合作方向會造成一些影響甚至對台積電這個二奈米製程的競爭力會不會或者後續的營收會不會有相關的衝擊我想台積電這個公司有這個責任向董事會做個說明"},{"start":10366.504,"end":10393.906,"text":"我們在下一次董事會他們會針對整個案情進行說明因為目前還在查證調查中那目前從我的角度來看他檢調進來了然後國科會進來了那已經在整個安全性是止血了那現在是要把他的動機跟目的那這些人的背後的動機跟目的是來自於誰那目前必須查清楚才能確定"},{"start":10394.767,"end":10422.649,"text":"那我們也不能說現在就去就會把他指向是哪一個哪一個國家哪一個那個最後一個問題就是說我們會讓檢調跟好那個問題我想這個國安會或者諸位你也持續關注後續的這個處理情形另外這個先進製程我比較不擔心就加上有今天記者會他所說的承諾他們所說的承諾但我比較相對關心相對擔心的是成熟製程說實在大概在中國大概他"},{"start":10423.49,"end":10448.415,"text":"可以掌握百分之五成的這個成熟製程的市場所以台灣也有很多成熟製程的這個廠商對不對那成熟製程我看這個百分之百的關稅豁免呃 課金百分之百的關稅是針對中國是劍指中國我認為啦劍指中國什麼成熟製程這成熟製程它佔百分之五十趴的這個市佔率"},{"start":10449.676,"end":10477.458,"text":"因為這個中國的陳同志也沒有在美國設想過你要輸美國 你就扣百分之百台灣有些陳同志人有有些沒有對台灣陳同志人也會造成影響我想陳同志也請國安會先去做了解今天早上就有因為要來這裡所以我已經傳訊息給到工協會我們希望他們再評估看看"},{"start":10478.238,"end":10498.306,"text":"因為我的從直覺來看Global Fungi會占到一些優勢那如果誰跟他有一點客戶衝突的話那他這個評估我們希望他盡快評估出來那其他的部分的話我們也請他們評估因為在第一次的討論裡面大家是認為只要大家都一樣長一樣的話影響力就沒有那麼大"},{"start":10498.986,"end":10516.573,"text":"委員在扣減業也有聽到如果大家都50%的時候我們扣減業就還算比較擔心反而是匯率的問題對不對所以我們現在正在收集這個部分好 謝謝現在請賴世寶委員做詢答"},{"start":10535.182,"end":10539.138,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請國務會的劉竹偉劉竹偉"},{"start":10547.514,"end":10568.187,"text":"主委你說這個川普總統說要對晶片課百分之百的關稅你說對台灣是大利多這就我覺得很奇怪課100%的關稅成本增加100%咧晶片廠跟他們就100%對不對你說今天股票漲不要忘了台積電漲了55塊"},{"start":10576.206,"end":10590.937,"text":"台積電漲一塊錢我們的加錢指數漲8.61所以基本上主要是台積電以及其他你剛剛提到中美金有在美國設廠的那些的工廠他們股票漲"},{"start":10592.287,"end":10600.995,"text":"其他的股票不漲啊 就跌啊你要仔細看一下啊怎麼會整個是大利多呢我怎麼知道大利多從何講起啊怎麼會一個大利多大利多是說他有在美國設廠當然是零關稅當然是大利多對台積電當然是大利多其他沒有設廠的呢請問你啊 你知不知道我們半導體總共有幾家你知道嗎"},{"start":10616.906,"end":10637.815,"text":"我講的是利多那利多主要是因為我們主要的產值在是有限的是在這些廠商就是有在美國設廠當然是利多不是零關稅別人是100%當然是利多可是那些沒有去的廠商你告訴我現在有幾家的半導體廠商在國內你知道嗎國內現在半導體廠商有幾家半導體廠商的話"},{"start":10644.437,"end":10663.874,"text":"我沒有細數過了大概大概應該有10家以上吧不是啦全部半導體產業跟半導體有關係的跟半導體有關係的那就太多了Supply chain都在裡面啊就太多了三四百家啦就業人口多少你知道嗎"},{"start":10665.308,"end":10678.637,"text":"三十幾萬啦 三四十萬的就業人口啊2023年的資料半導體相關的產業 包括Supply Chain跟供應鏈加起來 307家就業人口31.7萬人主委啊 我是替你煩惱啊"},{"start":10686.814,"end":10690.256,"text":"這三四百家都可以去美國設廠嗎都有這個條件嗎他都像台積電這麼資本這麼雄厚我到處設廠每一家都可以嗎啊這些沒有去的人一百趴勒"},{"start":10700.743,"end":10703.224,"text":"他賺了超過一百趴嗎?我兩塊錢賣四塊錢賣五塊錢他厲害我有報告過我們有兩個方案一個是短期方案一個是中長期方案短期方案是應急的我們編列930億以上的金額來做這件事那我們這個主委我更關心的是什麼?你聽我講完啦"},{"start":10725.959,"end":10751.989,"text":"就業人口三十幾萬因為這是2023年的資料現在應該是三十幾萬我最擔心是我替我們下一代擔心你知道嗎這個台積電機設廠馬上少掉幾萬人的這個工程師的就業機會美國去多少委員你這是一個錯誤的訊息台積電在國內的設廠更多所以台積電現在招募的員工一年超過八千"},{"start":10752.509,"end":10769.808,"text":"他並沒有讓工作消失你不要跟我計程車講我不要講台積電我講其他產業不是只有對台灣增100%是對全世界每一個競爭對手都是付一樣的錢所以怎麼樣就跟計程車一起漲價一樣不是啊對我來講我們我管其他人我賺不到100%我現在去哪裡要加100%除非我去美國市場"},{"start":10774.193,"end":10802.294,"text":"我沒有去美國市場我就加一百趴我懂我啊我們現在我們在這裡啊現在主要是跟競爭者打道的我們現在正在評估像Global Boundary在美國有廠等等我們去了解他我們現在正在了解他但他絕對對啊我關心的我再強調一遍我們下一代的優秀的工程師的就業機會因為都要去美國才零趴啊對不對你一百趴大家都一百趴我趴了一趴趴他厲害"},{"start":10803.775,"end":10807.936,"text":"你現在隨便講一家國內的廠商他的獲利100%以上你告訴我哪一家你告訴我哪一家連台積電都沒有台積電的獲利毛利只有50幾%而已他還沒有100%啊你給他扣100%的關稅他活不下去啊我還是要講喔因為多數廠商還是以FOB為主買方在付錢"},{"start":10827.782,"end":10844.354,"text":"台積電當時希西威也跟我講過如果今天有關稅他會要他的客戶來負擔誰關稅都客戶付美國人付你可以去問希西威他自己講的我只是轉述這個話你要這樣子投了我再強調一遍我再強調一遍台積電的毛利只有5成多50幾%很厲害了他也沒有100%"},{"start":10857.103,"end":10862.848,"text":"它今天是因為在美國設廠所以它後面料呢 大力多 很好大家鼓掌 它也在美國設廠可是300多家相關的Supply Chain它沒有都要扣100%你不要忘了它剛剛有委員提到了CHIP跟其他的Semi-conductor的相關的產業的產品當然 細項沒有出來但是基本上要炒蛋啦"},{"start":10883.644,"end":10888.088,"text":"沒有一個產業賺一百%的啦你說跟其他世界其他國家比大家也都沒有一百%啦我活不下來啊 我活不下來啊在這裡啊除非我這美盤能夠轉移給別人報我付美國報我付嗎川普報我付這一百%的關稅嗎"},{"start":10904.413,"end":10909.257,"text":"這個都要去寫 阿如果是美國的話阿美國就不用他阿川普就這麼費工川普弄了半天結果他來付100%跟他去賣這個邏輯 主委阿這個阿這個你不要張口來講就這樣 謊話連篇怎麼會說美國幫你付 哪裡有美國幫你付美國幫你付這個錢 跟他去賣我只是就我的專業分析喔我也就我的專業分析 我來自產業啦我來自產業 我來自產業"},{"start":10932.854,"end":10939.079,"text":"我來自學界我跟廠商都有溝通過我跟廠商有溝通過很多廠商的老闆說我學生咧不用說這樣啦你講整包我跟你講除非就事論事我一直跟你強調你都不回答的問題我是說現在去美國市場的沒有問題"},{"start":10957.233,"end":10985,"text":"他沒有去的人 他沒有人力去的人怎麼辦100%水庫你剛剛跟我講說川普要付啊你川普在那邊靠啊我沒有講川普要付你說FOB啊FOB齁 他們都是買方要付這個都 業界齁過去都會經過協商因為每一家公司的巴跟泡不一樣所以他會經過協商第二種 我們有短期的因應方案去協助廠商降低成本"},{"start":10985.76,"end":10990.103,"text":"那對手因為也是漲100%我現在告訴你你不要講對手你現在系統壓降你看歐陵隧道我沒有系統壓降只是我把事實做分析我也跟你講事實假如我是這個相關企業的老闆我賺不到100%"},{"start":11013.336,"end":11026.161,"text":"你都假設這100%都要台灣的企業付的前提下講這件事情因為你來自學界我來自產業我可以告訴你產業絕對會去協商協商過去他並沒有這樣美國的富豪 按照川普的民客啊川普都沒有收關稅了川普現在多plot"},{"start":11039.211,"end":11047.356,"text":"說多麼驕傲的說我扣關稅已經扣了一千多億美金如果都是美國人的包袱他為什麼講這話"},{"start":11049.625,"end":11074.905,"text":"那為什麼要講這個話對不對 來這個我看下一頁我請教一個 今天其實更重要的主題在這裡主權基金你是主管單位對吧主權基金我不是主管單位是喔 怎麼不是 你Google一下國安會是主管單位喔我們只是只是現在在評估負責評估而已那你什麼時候可以把草案送到行政院"},{"start":11075.95,"end":11104.466,"text":"我們現在正在訪談幾個主要的國家的主權基金因為它這裡面非常的複雜我們必須很慎重的處理大概給我們時間表什麼時候可以送到行政院我們的我們目前的看法就是我們寧願做很好的準備而不是有時間表那我們現在正在排到幾個國家去拜訪請教他們他們的做法是什麼因為他必須今年底有沒有可能出來草案出來有沒有可能今年底"},{"start":11105.416,"end":11131.529,"text":"我們還要一層一層的上報這個看看這樣的準備夠不夠但是我跟您報告很重要的就是他如何能夠被監管的情況下又有自由的外界高度質疑非常大外界高度質疑你這個主權基金為什麼原來民進黨政府是反對的突然同意了因為主要都是要投資美國送過去美國那裡好最後一點我要跟你講一個東西川普講的"},{"start":11133.254,"end":11161.194,"text":"那是我們美國的錢啦日本對美國5500億所以我給他15%歐盟6000億南韓3500億美金那是美國的錢就很像職棒簽約的簽約金那是他的money結果我們為了拚面子我們為了跟韓國日本一樣拚5%我們每年賣到美國只有1160億"},{"start":11164.063,"end":11173.288,"text":"很多了省5%省60億美金為了省60億美金外面外傳要給4千億美金所以台灣他要台灣這個對美投資4千億美金這是extra的喔這是extra不算在這裡面的喔你怎麼講這個數據我不知道從哪裡來的所以我沒辦法comment媒體都在講4千億換5%變成15%那怎麼樣變15%"},{"start":11192.694,"end":11196.017,"text":"我是覺得20%就亂了不要審這個東西我沒辦法對未經證實的數據來做comment這個主委這個我再跟你強調喔"},{"start":11205.56,"end":11230.521,"text":"我再跟你強調如果你剛剛講是對的說我們都有辦法轉嫁的話川普不必課這個稅啦所以我剛才講企業一定會去商量不是這樣子啦我剛剛用的是商量我就跟你強調這個日本五千五百億歐盟六千億南韓三千五百億川普說那是美國的錢那是my money"},{"start":11231.431,"end":11233.632,"text":"美國的錢是美國的錢所以不管台灣投資多少都是他拿走的我們為了就拼這個我覺得0月20%就20%吧其實20%衝擊很大啦你現在來講什麼大利多我來聽聽我們說的那些在美國市場的"},{"start":11254.059,"end":11272.488,"text":"一個這個晶片廠也好半導體廠也好是利多但是沒有受得人以及對我們下一代的就業機會是很大的傷害我跟你講到這一天謝謝謝謝委員有些地方可能也許彼此有誤解我下次再跟您報告謝謝好謝謝現在請李昆城委員做詢答"},{"start":11288.401,"end":11289.849,"text":"謝謝主席 那請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":11299.134,"end":11320.681,"text":"委員長主委好今天早上四點半美國川普總統開了一個記者會他就說要對半導體開徵百分之百的關稅除非在美國有設廠不然就是要課百分之百的關稅因為台積電在美國有設廠所以好像大家就認為說台積電已經獲得豁免了"},{"start":11322.762,"end":11336.555,"text":"那主委也認為是利多那看今天的股票這個也到目前為止漲了500多點台積電也漲了大概有50塊左右啦那我是想請問一下主委台積電有真正確定獲得豁免嗎"},{"start":11339.039,"end":11358.603,"text":"因為這個是川普今天的announcement並沒有美國政府的正式公告那我的瞭解都是會以正式公告為準但是如果就川普的說辭的話台積電其實是豁免的因為台積電其實十幾年前就在台積電現在有在美國設廠那他就說要設廠或是承諾要設廠都可以獲得豁免"},{"start":11363.504,"end":11386.539,"text":"那台積電一廠也蓋好了嗎?已經在測試中嗎?好,那這個是指說在美國設廠的部分那台積電在台灣更多廠啊對,更多那有獲得豁免嗎?主要是因為它在美國有設廠按照川普的說法或者是有計畫要設廠的都會得到豁免對,我的意思是說那台積電在台灣的廠也同時有獲得豁免嗎?"},{"start":11390.441,"end":11418.429,"text":"那是一起的 一起的那些它是對進口的關稅的部分好 有確定齁那這個部分其實佔台積電進口的大概只有1%啦好 那我就確定啦就是說就是在台灣的在美國的都獲得豁免就對了對對對好 那再請教一下齁那因為晶片通常會組裝到這個成品出來再送到美國去那這部分組裝的用台積電的晶片組裝的這些下游的產品有獲得豁免嗎"},{"start":11419.929,"end":11429.002,"text":"他目前是針對晶片的部分那組裝到成品去的並沒有還沒有在他的公告範圍內還沒有嗎好那請教一下那個主委因為"},{"start":11433.284,"end":11459.274,"text":"這個台積電它這個晶圓設計部分在我們半導體的產業鏈裡面是屬於中斷的嘛中油部分那上游包含這個IC設計那中油我剛才講的就是有晶圓製造那下游這一個封裝設施那我就是要請教一下那主委啦就是說現在的除了台積電的晶片因為在美國設廠有獲得這個豁免但是呢包含它的上游中游下游這些產業"},{"start":11460.154,"end":11486.888,"text":"那是不是還現在還在談判當中還受到這一個美國的這個232條款的影響還沒有確定他這次川普是講到chip跟semiconductors那正常的情況下是他在他們的正式announcement會針對這些字眼定義含哪些會公告出來那現在還沒有確定對那等他的公告就會明顯就會清楚他指的是什麼"},{"start":11487.868,"end":11511.451,"text":"那所以目前就是我講的這些上中油的這些產業都還在這個232條款的影響的範圍裡面就對了還沒有確定哪時候會知道也還不知道因為它自己先公告嘛是它的公告那之後美國的商務部會公告嘛那目前他們的關稅勒"},{"start":11514.461,"end":11538.391,"text":"關稅 我們現在您是指哪一部分的關稅就是說這些半頭體的產品的關稅目前這個部分就像他一樣他會等正式的公告他現在是announcement嘛要等到他政府的正式通知他有一個生效期然後還有他含的他的chips跟這個semi cup那所以就是說上游中游下游的這些產品都還沒有確定就對了要看公告的正確性"},{"start":11539.511,"end":11559.973,"text":"那我再請教一下 其實我們的自通訊顯卡伺服器這些在美國出口的 出口到美國的這些產品佔這個百分之大概78左右啦那這些產品對台灣的廠商來講非常重要那現在的關稅也還沒有確定嗎還沒有確定 那目前這些產品還在豁免清單內"},{"start":11562.415,"end":11569.809,"text":"但是他會不會在232這個現在還沒有確定還沒有確定那我們現在是把這些跟我們現在對等關稅一起來談嗎"},{"start":11571.734,"end":11589.377,"text":"我不清楚有沒有一起談因為我沒有參與談可是我看行政院是有講要一起談抱歉我可能沒有注意到這個這很重要我也不知道這個我的印象就是說因為現在8月7號好像等下12點了對等關稅20%就生效了那我們認為說我們的談判團隊說這個是屬於暫時性的關稅接下來會跟232條款受到影響的這些我們資通訊的產品會一起來談應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":11601.412,"end":11619.4,"text":"如果是這樣的話會對產業比較有利啦不是不是啊你不是團隊的一部分嗎怎麼變成是我在跟你講然後你再回答我說如果這樣談的話這個會比較有利就是行政院給我們的訊息是這樣子啊是暫時性的關稅會跟232條款受到影響的這些產業"},{"start":11622.581,"end":11635.312,"text":"綁在一起談希望說能夠一起談 談出更好的關稅沒錯 我是在表達這樣談是對產業會比較好可是你剛才給我的回應我覺得你好像不知道說兩個是綁在一起談的這個問題就很重"},{"start":11640.035,"end":11655.285,"text":"因為這個在比較高的層級談啊不是啊 那就算比較高的層級談這個我也不是談判代表但是我看行政院的相關的資訊我也知道說目前是綁在一起談的啊這主委你這樣的回應讓我有點意外耶我想"},{"start":11660.14,"end":11688.31,"text":"但是我們現在最主要是因為主要是明天會有一個記者會他應該會說明那最後我再請教一下好了因為現在日本跟韓國都對美國有投資日本投資了這個5500億美國投資了這個3500億那我就請問一下那接下來的這個232的條款我們有辦法取得比談判有取得比日本或是韓國更好的一個稅率嗎"},{"start":11690.063,"end":11695.617,"text":"因為還沒有投資這麼多了我認為應該是我們現在是中間稅率到20那"},{"start":11699.42,"end":11727.097,"text":"只會往下降按照不論是泰國、越南、日韓的談法都會往下降所以應該至少會到跟日韓一樣吧至少我認為了那我也還是跟你抱歉我沒有參與我知道啦那就是說你認為說這個按照這個外國的這個談判或是日韓的談判最後都往下降了你認為最後我們也會關稅也會往下降我目前的暫時性稅率看起來"},{"start":11728.078,"end":11746.447,"text":"也沒有比對手來講是好啦比這幾個國家來講是好的我再請教 最後再請教主委齁我目前這一個齁 安全任性這個特別條例啦齁這個其中是930億是用在這個支持台灣的出口供應鏈那750億是用在工業 180億是用在農業"},{"start":11749.108,"end":11774.915,"text":"但是這是在關稅還沒確定之前你們的這個特別條例是這樣子安排的那我想請教一下主委因為現在20%的暫時金關稅還在談然後232條款你也還沒有確定那就國發會立場來講這個930億有沒有必要再擴充有沒有必要再增加這個規模預算因為這樣看起來它沒有特別用在我們的這個資通訊產業這邊"},{"start":11777.912,"end":11802.949,"text":"目前這個是針對所有的產業對啊那如果是我來看的話我比較主張的是我們用滾動式來調整看它的變動不是因為這裡面它現在已經滾到關稅都出來了我就說就國發貨幣上有沒有必要在930C再增加因為我看來它沒有特別針對會受到70%外銷到美國這些自通訊產品的這些影響"},{"start":11805.503,"end":11830.115,"text":"這個其實是很難做一個評估但是當然你就這種協助性的東西當然是越多越好但是還要考慮到國家的財政嘛當然啦我是說你們有沒有去我們可以依據這個執行的狀態來做一個就是20%確定之後有沒有要再做調整那這個調整呢是原來的條例裡面因為現在是條例過了預算那預算它這個930億你們還可以再做調整"},{"start":11832.737,"end":11843.293,"text":"然後呢是這樣在原來通過條例裡面做調整呢還是要送一個新的條例出來然後把這個受到關稅影響的這些預算我們再增加目前行政院做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":11846.372,"end":11867.267,"text":"因為行政院做法目前是因為這個當時是考慮到不舉債狀態那另外第二個事情是當時是32%評估現在已經20%了所以目前來看的話理論上應該是還足以支撐理論上還足以支撐但是我們232也還沒有確定232對台灣那些資通訊產品影響很大如果232如果有影響到台灣的資通訊"},{"start":11875.117,"end":11889.754,"text":"那這個金額我認為是需要再增加的但是那個是一個很假設的前提下那可是你們沒有去設想好幾個模組嗎?這個情況一、情況二、情況三到底是怎麼樣嗎?"},{"start":11891.315,"end":11920.275,"text":"這個是有的喔因為我們在8月1號的會議裡面院長有指示就是說我們要重新再評估各種現在新的版本那各部會都在進行中啦都會彙整到那所以會再提出新的特別條例出來嗎還是就原來的預算裡面再做調整我現在是問這個方向啦如果有動應該只有金額的部分那就看各部會提出來的有沒有改變就是在通過了條例的下面那預算再做調整就對了"},{"start":11921.751,"end":11940.162,"text":"因為這個東西 這個還是在行政院做最後的拍板不是 你是國發會國發會也是很重要的這個可能您可能因為我們這次把這個層級拉得很高拉得很高以後呢那相關的部會就會參與到那裡面去就有那個比較高的層級不含國發會這個這麼高的層級不含國發會就對了"},{"start":11944.039,"end":11971.36,"text":"因為國會本身沒有資源去做那當然你是你類似一個幕僚的一個單位對對對對啊所以那我們在分工上面我們負責中長期的部分就是在這是短期因為那中長期是由我們來負責所以在中長期部分我們有規劃了雙金字塔的一個我知道這個其實我都有看過相關資料短期沒辦法一定影響到中長期的那我是希望說這個"},{"start":11973.061,"end":11992.566,"text":"等一下12點28%的正式性關稅就生效了那接下來還有232條款這個行政院要先做好準備啊好不好 是的 是的好 謝謝主委好 謝謝好 謝謝現在先做宣告我們中午不休息 延長開會時間王洪威委員質詢結束休息10分鐘現在請呂毓林委員做詢答"},{"start":12004.457,"end":12008.14,"text":"謝謝主席 請劉主委劉主委我延伸剛剛的問題在我們這次的特別條例裡面我們是用32%關稅相對的關稅的32%來做這個特別條例所以現在關稅已經降到20%了所以應該是足夠來應付這次的關稅的問題"},{"start":12034.241,"end":12041.085,"text":"對不對雖然說有232條例的這個其他產業會影響的話我們是另當別論事情發生了我們剛剛主委也特別提到說232條例如果有影響的產業產業自己也會去談我剛才聽得很清楚是不是這樣子我剛才講的是說剛才是提到半導體產業那這個百分之百的關稅由誰負責"},{"start":12060.285,"end":12063.586,"text":"會影響到產業 不只是半導體 不只是晶片啦可是有去投資的 豁免關稅是一定會豁免的啦大家會去談 怎麼來分攤 還沒發生其實這些問題 很多問題都要問經濟部啦經濟部不來 只好叫你來了那我們就聊聊吧"},{"start":12080.373,"end":12095.12,"text":"那主委目前川普對我們這個關稅已經宣布說是20%了那賴總統第一時間也開了記者會說這是暫時性的稅率請問主委這個暫時性要多久啊我不是那麼清楚要多久但是我至少我知道以你的判斷評估呢我很難去預測啦因為"},{"start":12110.624,"end":12124.992,"text":"很多事情不掌握在我們手上是主委我剛剛也有聽到你講說這個關稅就是川普他們單方面的宣布而已並沒有實質跟哪些國家有白紙黑紙的簽約是不是"},{"start":12126.074,"end":12139.2,"text":"這個是目前來講的話我們看到的訊息是這樣是這樣子的話那所以就要看表現你剛才講說要看表現那表現的話就像現在已經宣布了日本跟韓國他們的關稅是15%日本韓國是我們主要競爭的國家對不對"},{"start":12145.615,"end":12173.924,"text":"他們這個15%還有附帶條件要投資5000億、3500億嘛 是不是那現在我們外面尼克拉斯州你不承認這個4000億的問題但是已經一直喊從2000億美金、3000億美金已經喊到4000億美金還不知道川普願不願意投資這些金額就可以給我們降低所以我們的目標是不是盡量努力就是要降低到跟日本、韓國一樣 最起碼"},{"start":12175.273,"end":12188.424,"text":"才是我們在競爭力上有個持平的點我想大家都會朝這個方向在努力有15%我們就已經很高興了對不對那現在 主委那現在我們現在談到15%的話你認為我們有什麼空間籌碼跟他談"},{"start":12194.105,"end":12212.692,"text":"主要還是跟委員報告因為我沒有參與到這個談判我說請你的評估因為你是國發會你可以橫跨各部會整合調整各部會的資源來幫助度過這個關稅問題啊所以我才問你你又整合了這事情這麼久了四月份到現在"},{"start":12213.692,"end":12230.299,"text":"八月了 要八月了這個時間裡面各部會整合一下相對應的要應對的有沒有戰略性的建議的合作的這個價值在那邊還是說我們各部會有什麼相關的這些可以支援可以來對我們產業的幫忙不要讓我們產業受到這麼大的衝擊你應該有嘛"},{"start":12234.201,"end":12254.12,"text":"沒有 這次是一個比較重大的 所以都在院這邊在整合啦那我們都扮演 我們的角色是資源的角色 而且我們分工在中長期的規劃啦那我們就專注在中長期的規劃 因為短期我們資源在各部會那各位 中長期的規劃裡面 有沒有看到我們台灣要做哪些讓步"},{"start":12259.655,"end":12276.549,"text":"我從中長期來看我們是看到要去轉型啦要重新佈局啦那企業需要去轉型所以我們編列了一些計畫舉個例子我們AI十大建設裡面就有很大的一塊協助企業進行AI轉型把產品你希望國內的需要的市場能夠再擴大"},{"start":12282.633,"end":12308.498,"text":"國內來供應就夠了還有國內趕快要走到AI我知道AI這個是我們下一波必須要做的事情所以這個我們已經計畫要執行的部分不只這樣還有開拓新市場像現在工具機有一個很大的新市場在印度那還有一塊也不算小的市場在土耳其那我們也要協助他們往多元化的去發展市場所以這個我們"},{"start":12309.878,"end":12322.774,"text":"我們台灣是出口導向的國家那人口是很重要的我們台灣多少人口2350萬人口對美國多少人口印度多少人口大都多少人口這就是很需要的一個問題對不對是的"},{"start":12325.057,"end":12346.536,"text":"就是我們出口的導向的問題就在這邊這都是國發會你要先未已從某看到這些問題要做了準備功夫所以我才會問你說你有準備我們有什麼地方的讓步提到說4000億美金的投資這是我們最大的讓步嗎還是我們可以承受更多承受到哪個程度你有評估過嗎這個是我們有專業的專業評估過嗎國發應該要知道的"},{"start":12352.912,"end":12373.66,"text":"我們就是扮演資源的角色啦是啊 所以問你我們的資源夠承擔這個未來要讓步的地方嗎投資的地方我相信我們的前線談判的團隊應該有做好前線談判也是一個團隊一個團隊包括你們啊你們提供給他資源啊我的承受度可以到哪裡對不對 我的資源可以到哪裡"},{"start":12378.499,"end":12400.241,"text":"四千億還是只能到三千億這你沒有提供給他他是有談判籌碼跟底線對不對你沒有底線你怎麼談呢我們的籌碼不會我想不會只有那當然所以我要你評估嘛你今天只能做評估的角色告訴我們讓國人稍微有個底啊對不對因為我沒有參與我沒辦法評估我知道你今天講很多遍了好"},{"start":12401.363,"end":12429.059,"text":"我要請問這個籌碼跟這個能力部分主委你沒辦法評估我相信在一個團隊裡面都要提供這些資料給我們談判的人他們才有辦法進一步去談來來回回因為現在沒有簽約啊美國完全看我們的表現啊這個表現就是你們要去談啊才能表現到他滿意嘛所以主委剛剛有提到啦"},{"start":12430.615,"end":12441.461,"text":"因為我們現在是出國導向的國家那現在我們看到經濟景氣你一直說經濟景氣不錯沒有錯啦在二月份的時候我們還是紅燈到現在四月份的話已經變成綠燈那你看看這個關稅的情形下來的話我們會不會變成藍燈啊"},{"start":12450.64,"end":12462.462,"text":"你有沒有看到這個你就要評估囉我們這個我們是有評估啦我們是看兩個東西齁這個是落後指標啦我們領先指標來看的話是有下滑的現象"},{"start":12463.393,"end":12484.131,"text":"那當然這裡面會因為充滿了不定性嘛那最後還是要看談判的結果會影響到如果15%的話就會反彈了因為在不定的過程中我們如果從整體出口來看會變高的原因是因為從現在你看我們的圖表已經知道了啦從2月份一直下滑到現在啦"},{"start":12484.511,"end":12503.001,"text":"就GDP的評估我們大概估計在1到1.5還會再下降嗎你估到會再下降它是會有成長但是不會到6點多整個經濟的成長率我看這個3%是太過於樂觀了下半年會比較趨緩所以根據我們中經院在7月17號公布我們經濟預測"},{"start":12511.266,"end":12532.422,"text":"也有做出同样的这个评估尤其是我们的这关税战已经影响到国际这个体系整个经贸的一个模式尤其世界各国针对这个关税的成本的上升也可能引起全球的通货膨胀所以诸位这个整个经济的成长率的你们可能会下修吗"},{"start":12533.723,"end":12546.269,"text":"經濟成長率我們原來預估是用3.1預估的那因為我們上半年到6.67那你剛才講說會下修一點多了那個下修是下半年的部分所以全年我們還是維持在3.1"},{"start":12549.95,"end":12569.605,"text":"現在已經要下半年了對下半年有可能到1到我剛講到1到1.5之間所以上半年6.67兩個加起來的話我們現在還是在很有信心在3以上但我們還是在所有的政策都在力保3.1的目標不變"},{"start":12570.598,"end":12575.46,"text":"是 諸位我們現在看到我們的關稅雖然從32%降到這個20%是有階段性的一個成果但是我們最主要跟我們有競爭的國家它的 我們還是比他們高在這種情形之下我們應該要整合各個部會的資源來對於整個我們關稅會受到衝擊的一些優勢的地方來做一個調整那譬如說像剛剛講的這個晶片"},{"start":12600.011,"end":12605.296,"text":"台積電在美國了在美國所以他可能豁免了那其他國家呢聯電呢還是立積電呢他們如果沒有去美國投資的他們會不會受到很大衝擊這方面你都要去協助他們更加的有這個競爭力整個狀況你都要去了解 好不好那讓我們的整個經濟不衝擊的地方可以"},{"start":12623.612,"end":12638.991,"text":"讓他們更得到一些保障或者是說在我們整體的這個貿易受到挫折的時候這個低迷的狀況我們可以度過這個難關這都一樣不是台積電而已我們很多在研發這個高製程的一個研發單位他們都會面臨這個問題"},{"start":12642.295,"end":12656.006,"text":"我們這次也有預算去協助他們他們又不去投資不是每個都要投資我們不能逼企業出走台積電已經被你們逼走了我希望後面的不要被逼走我們怎麼樣協助他們度過這個難關好不好我們一定會協助企業度過難關的謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請王鴻薇委員做詢答"},{"start":12674.448,"end":12676.431,"text":"好謝謝主席請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":12685.889,"end":12709.264,"text":"主委辛苦了主委剛才呂一林委員有問您就是我們今年的經濟成長率能不能保三因為在你們的報告裡面因為當時半導體的稅率還沒有公布那現在美國對國外的半導體稅率公布所以基本上你們還是維持你們報告裡面今年經濟成長率能夠保三嗎"},{"start":12711.607,"end":12726.063,"text":"是的我大概第一個主要是我們上半年已經到6.67了這個我知道在報告裡面有的所以我只要一句話就是今天基本上主委願意代表政府你們還是會今年的經濟成長率全力保三嗎"},{"start":12730.127,"end":12752.887,"text":"會 因為下半年還有Apple的那種手機拉貨槽還有NVIDIA的GB300的拉貨槽所以覺得還有百分之三以上還是有希望今天在美國公布半導體稅率因為它的附加條件只要在美國有投資或者你承諾投資都可以豁免的百分之百"},{"start":12753.988,"end":12768.624,"text":"那立刻在股市也做了反映台積電大漲像鴻海大漲像因為台積電跟鴻海在美國都有投資可是就如同剛才很多委員所說的我們看下一頁"},{"start":12769.705,"end":12776.411,"text":"有很多的大廠其實都沒有在美國投資到目前為止所以譬如說聯發科、瑞玉、華邦電、矽創當然還是不止這些公司而已所以對於這些台廠的影響100%的稅率事實上是不可承受之重"},{"start":12792.526,"end":12800.074,"text":"所以他必然出現一個趨勢也就是迫使台灣的這些半導體相關的廠商他必須到美國去投資不然他就沒有辦法豁免那百分之百嘛那這就會出現一個我們過去也非常擔心的"},{"start":12813.035,"end":12816.477,"text":"台積電到了美國我們說他變成美積電但是事實上在今年初川普上來之後就有一個趨勢我們現在是沉篡沉重的好一起到美國去考察"},{"start":12828.564,"end":12831.427,"text":"所以當時就會非常擔心台積電過去還不夠整個竹科恐怕都要搬過去因為確實我們來看確實很多的廠商陸陸續續比如廣達、和碩、仁寶、微創"},{"start":12844.62,"end":12866.967,"text":"英業達等等都陸陸續續的從去年底開始就有設廠的計畫或者是設研發中心的計畫而且這樣的趨勢會是一直持續所以作為國發會主委來說對於未來我們的高科技電子產業特別半導體的部分"},{"start":12868.123,"end":12874.171,"text":"主委 你擔不擔心不只台積電要過去整個竹科也會搬過去"},{"start":12875.643,"end":12903.981,"text":"对我们来看第一个厂商只要是跟流台湾的做全球布局这个倒不一定就是一定坏事我们比较担心的是像当年很多中小企业是整个把台湾关掉搬走的我们会比较在意这一种但是以目前这个趋势来看我想您大概业界也会听到很多的企业都有在讲到美国生产的成本是比较高的"},{"start":12904.961,"end":12926.414,"text":"所以大家都是針對美國市場去做移動不是針對他全球的市場做移動第二個業者也會開始在做全球其他市場的佈局所以第二個事情我們在開始擴大的內需的方案裡面我們像AI新十大建設就會發展更多的新技術然後擴大國內市場的需求"},{"start":12927.535,"end":12930.757,"text":"所以就半導體產業來說半導體產業來說國內的市場還是非常小我們已經佔了全球的四分之一那台積電更多將近七成之多那當然我們有我們的優勢"},{"start":12944.247,"end":12967.555,"text":"所以台積電其實百分之百對他來說他就是有優勢但是並不是所有的相關的產業鏈的產業他都有同樣的優勢所以我覺得這一點是我們必須非常非常小心的也就是不要變成整個竹科或者南科我們好不容易幾十年來的心血因為這一次美國對半導體產業科百分之百的關稅"},{"start":12970.616,"end":12974.138,"text":"把我們的根都已經把它剷除了這點我希望在我們整個的未來的因應裡面一定要把這個考慮進去另外第三個問題其實主委剛上任的時候曾經對核電其實你並不排斥但是整個的政府的氛圍使得你們必須改口"},{"start":12994.967,"end":13008.912,"text":"823就有一個核酸研議的公投當然我們會全力的來推動所以我想請問主委作為一個專業性你剛講你來自業界也跟業界有很好的互動我相信從業界來講沒有人會認為說核酸不應該研議"},{"start":13013.014,"end":13033.435,"text":"所以您同不同意如果核酸可以做演绎的话对于现在尤其我们高科技产业对于我们AI产业现在面对的新的美国贸易战的变局对于我们业者来降低成本跟留台湾是有帮助的"},{"start":13034.918,"end":13042.172,"text":"我現在看到產業比較找我討論的比較是他需要更多的綠電來因應他的R100或R150"},{"start":13044.517,"end":13068.111,"text":"那看起來台灣對綠電的缺需是比較高的目前的狀態所以確實核酸原液應該有幫助吧就永續的部分我們會我們事實上會我們大部分都是在協助多元綠能的發展包括在這個地熱的發展甚至我們也協助訂的氫能源政策"},{"start":13068.971,"end":13079.497,"text":"大概會我們希望能夠盡快的去滿足尤其是半導體業者對於綠電的需求那非常的急迫所以我們大部分現在我知道你還在迴避這個話題但是呢就台灣的這個這個能源的永續經營產業的永續經營其實台灣真的走在一個實質路口我覺得我還是會鼓勵我們的尤其來自業界的向主委還是能夠本於你的專業願意說真話"},{"start":13098.387,"end":13098.587,"text":"現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":13132.852,"end":13132.892,"text":"好,好。"},{"start":13158.235,"end":13183.582,"text":"三文治跟三文治"},{"start":13197.41,"end":13199.171,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":13221.774,"end":13232.441,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":13247.642,"end":13253.605,"text":"一切都是靠你為你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你獻給你"},{"start":13284.728,"end":13285.348,"text":"一絲桃花 一條花"},{"start":13316.184,"end":13322.634,"text":"我吃了"},{"start":13342.366,"end":13345.05,"text":"說真的,這個十大節,這是我最大的經驗。"},{"start":13372.651,"end":13381.754,"text":"要找情侶他有說他要皺眉所以他剛才出來跟我說他還好吧他對我對我很好"},{"start":13411.608,"end":13411.628,"text":"嗯?"},{"start":13442.193,"end":13452.415,"text":"嘖嘖"},{"start":13461.465,"end":13461.485,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":13482.97,"end":13499.057,"text":"所以想說我帶船給你我想說這麼近我就趕快帶船起來所以有帶船給你船船不保證因為我們船船不保證老公你那個船船有測量嗎沒有沒有那你不要測因為我覺得訊息不太好"},{"start":13524.076,"end":13524.537,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":13531.977,"end":13534.418,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳"},{"start":13552.308,"end":13553.69,"text":"這邊找了 找不一定找得到"},{"start":13577.952,"end":13578.453,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":13584.957,"end":13588.418,"text":"可以喔可以喔可以喔可以喔"},{"start":13616.794,"end":13621.918,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":13668.181,"end":13668.922,"text":"這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。"},{"start":13712.615,"end":13722.322,"text":"开始开会现在请黄国昌委员做询答黄国昌委员不在现在请陈冠廷委员做询答"},{"start":13737.113,"end":13739.661,"text":"你好 我們請主委六處委"},{"start":13747.416,"end":13775.154,"text":"陳偉豪主委好今天我看到我們的這個專案報告裡面那有特別提到說在農業的地方你們在第三頁有提到說農業提出包含知識產業安利就業等等的九大面向等等措施那其中的知識產業的部分有提到農業金融的支持那還有包含工業產業等等設備汰換啊 汰舊換新等等那我覺得這些都是很正面的方向但是我必須要強調一件事情"},{"start":13775.854,"end":13800.006,"text":"那這次我們除了颱風之外然後接下來的水患那對台灣的這個農業影響非常大特別是對嘉義也是那再加上關稅未來的挑戰就是說農工上面整個嘉義縣都會遇到算是前所未有的挑戰那你是我們國家的總規劃師包含這個國發會也是他是要做跨部會的協調我想請教"},{"start":13801.527,"end":13820.296,"text":"當農民同時其實不只是農民有些農民他同時也是有一跟產業是有相關的農產業他同時面對天災跟外銷訂單的衝擊我們現有的這個援助機制譬如說天然災害的救助還有關稅因應的這些貸款在程序上面是不是有整合的空間來去減輕這個農民奔波的負擔"},{"start":13823.638,"end":13842.846,"text":"特別我要強調是在災後重建最關鍵的天然災害的低利貸款那我們第一線的農民其實遇到一些實際的困難比方說辦法要在15天內附上金額固定的估價單可是災後的廠商雖然他們很想要趕快去做相關的升級但是這麼"},{"start":13843.922,"end":13871.327,"text":"找不到這些物料的價格在波動然後短的時間內要拿到這樣子的一張準確的估價單確實是有它的難度在我想這中間的落差國發會是不是可以發揮它的協調的專長來去協助一個可以解決地方的好政策因為如果執行上面的一些小瓶頸那讓人民感覺到不便那就很可惜了不知道主委對這邊有沒有什麼初步的想法"},{"start":13871.747,"end":13898.511,"text":"委員這個訊息非常重要可以看到您也很關心這個民眾那我這邊會去找那個負責的那個陳金德政委我會來跟他探討是不是能夠簡化程序那盡快的讓人民不要這樣跑農民這樣跑來跑去我們盡快可以怎麼樣能夠讓他們簡化一些程序讓他可以盡快得到他應該得到的協助"},{"start":13900.272,"end":13916.85,"text":"謝謝主委 我們盡快齁 趕快協調一下因為程序的這個簡化對我們這些農民朋友他們現在一方面又要擔心可能下週下下週會不會又有西南棄爐然後又擔心說那如果上面的這些程序沒有完備那怎麼辦 會不會因此"},{"start":13917.69,"end":13935.135,"text":"所以這個部分我還是希望主委趕快去來協調其實過去我們有相關的經驗莫拉克風災的時候那個時候的政府就有把這個高度的彈性展現出來所以我相信因時制宜的制度把它變成一個未來的一個處置的方式我也會建議大家看看因為現在在台南的潛行指揮所是銅鑿廠商"},{"start":13937.996,"end":13964.692,"text":"對屋頂有三個價格讓民眾去選他就不要再去買菜了因為民眾自己去找很困難對就做好媒合的角色那大家就估價單也很簡易的就是你是哪一個也不要讓物價波動你就是三種價格什麼樣的服務就是把它確認下去所以我想說也許這個機制我也會請那個陳政委思考是不是把它放到加以來即時紓困上面那個主委謝謝你剛才的回應行政上面的彈性"},{"start":13965.532,"end":13984.353,"text":"那這個放寬這個申請訂金的時程壓力這些我還是一定要在這邊跟你反映那除此之外莫拉克的經驗是這樣子他這個放寬災損證明的認定那個時候的主管軍官允許因為事實困難沒有辦法取得官方所在證明的農民可以檢據照片"},{"start":13985.214,"end":14011.044,"text":"化智場處理單據等等的替代型文件就是這個彈性過去是有的那另外一方面就是他們有延長申請這個救助的這個期限那其實上次農業部部長來我們這個嘉義勘災的時候已經有談過也確實已經延遲過一次但是我想加上西南氣流的這一次在上週到上週為止都是那下週可能又有"},{"start":14011.784,"end":14026.467,"text":"那這樣子的狀況之下我是希望說這種延長救助的申請期限未來就我們在反應之前就可以先納入考量因為這是連續連續受災我們過去整個7月變成說整個7月都是在"},{"start":14027.208,"end":14052.635,"text":"救災然後接下來就是在辦理這些災害的救助甚至非常對於農民朋友來講是很大的負擔所以我還是在強調這個行政的簡化這個是一定要做的那也謝謝你剛才的回應那特別講到15天內附上這個金額固定的估價但這個是很多人反映的這個麻煩主委務必跟政委回去好好的演上好的"},{"start":14056.198,"end":14080.732,"text":"好 謝謝最後再補充一點這個我看到關稅上面的這幾天的變化因為它是起起伏伏我們我知道說今天這個半導體來講對我國來講那其實是一個算是比較好一點的訊息有些地方是得到豁免但是我還是要強調說我國除了科技業之外還有其他的工業農業那怎麼樣能夠規劃其他產業能夠"},{"start":14085.314,"end":14113.172,"text":"一同的往前走均衡台灣裡面很大的一部分就是不是獨厚一個產業怎麼樣把這些經濟上面的股市來分享給其他因為現在我們嘉義雲林台南高雄屏東很多農民他沒有享受到這個高科技產業的股市但是已經遇到這種天然的災害所以在稅率稅賦上面我們怎麼樣去做好的一個分擔讓急需受到幫助急需受到援助的這些災民農民朋友們"},{"start":14114.152,"end":14139.125,"text":"這是整個國家的發展藍圖這個地方我還是希望這一個國發會可以來好好思考一下怎麼樣把均衡把利益均衡這樣子好謝謝委員好現在請廖先祥委員做詢答好謝謝主席一樣麻煩請我們主委劉主委"},{"start":14148.258,"end":14162.38,"text":"主委午安就是美國在川普總統上任之後那就對於國際貿易的秩序有一個新的一個做法那我想先請問主委一個大方向的一個問題你認為這樣子無論是川普總統"},{"start":14164.162,"end":14188.747,"text":"請一些貿易對美國來說貿易逆差的國家來增加關稅或者是要擴大美國投資的這樣子的一件事情對於美國的這個經濟來看長遠來看對美國的經濟是好的還是不好的您認為這個是一個很難答的題目因為他有利有弊有利有弊就長遠來看"},{"start":14191.78,"end":14216.949,"text":"長遠來看如果用很長遠的角度來看對美國應該是好的可是在短期的衝擊會不會影響到長遠是一個值得觀察的可是我的疑問是說一個國家這樣子的貿然的去改變國際的貿易秩序然後對於廠商有這麼多不穩定的一個投資因素在裡面"},{"start":14217.55,"end":14220.022,"text":"那對於他的國家的經濟您認為這樣對他的國家經濟長期來說還是好的"},{"start":14222.532,"end":14249.418,"text":"現在即使在我們觀察美國的即使美國的經濟學者的看法也是會有兩極化就會有兩個面向那所以它還是一個因為有點顛覆很多過去的看法跟學術理論所以它變成一個是要必須要被觀察的其實商業行為尤其是大型的投資案其實大部分的人都是求一個穩定其實很多人在關稅例上面他其實都會認為說關稅幾%對他來說"},{"start":14252.379,"end":14277.982,"text":"他不是那麼的在乎只要是能夠接受範圍內但是就是要穩定不要早上一個政策晚上一個政策因此我認為在美國川普總統就任之後每天都有新的一個貿易政策跟貿易的規矩出來會影響很多不只是台灣中華民國而是全世界各個國家對於美國的一個投資他可能會抱持一個光榮的態度"},{"start":14278.742,"end":14305.627,"text":"他可能會對於在美國的投資他會放完腳步所以我都認為這樣子的一個不穩定性長期而言我會認為說對美國的經濟它長遠影響可能短期間內可以看到可能還要求一些企業去做投資短期內可能會有一些數字上會比較好看但是因為長期的不穩定性我相信對美國的經濟長期而言或許我認為是會不好的那在不好的情況下"},{"start":14307.878,"end":14320.564,"text":"就是在美國這麼樣的一個貿易不穩定的情況下那身為我們國發會的一個角色你會認為我們台灣的中華民國的企業持續的擴大對美國的投資嗎"},{"start":14324.18,"end":14347.341,"text":"如果您記得在2017、17、18的時候大家也是跟現在生活有點接近那時候我們每天都在跟我們的廠商在探討怎麼樣去面對未來跟解決那時候我自己學到一件事情就是你自己的競爭力在什麼程度會決定你會做什麼事情"},{"start":14348.121,"end":14365.47,"text":"當你很薄弱的時候是一種做法你很強壯是一個做法所以我在思考就是說未來的變局其實我相信也不是只有這一次我們也不知道什麼時候還有再來的變局就像我們剛才總統說的暫時金融關稅我相信川普現在的關稅對全世界每個國家來說"},{"start":14366.39,"end":14390.66,"text":"都是暫時性的我相信只要一個他不開心他就會挑啊都是挑戰所以我們反而怎麼去讓自己的企業變強還有我們的體質變好所以我們才會端出AI新時代建設希望透過這樣的一個機會不但是提升我們的體質第二個轉變我們的行業特性增加軟體的部分那也讓關鍵技術再增加"},{"start":14392.1,"end":14416.085,"text":"那我們希望透過這樣的方式讓整個台灣有一個比較大的體質改變當然就現階段而言美國確實還是我們全球最大的經濟體那也是我們許多自動汽產業現在應該躍升為第一大的一個出超國了這是一個出口貿易的國家了短期內我們確實是不能沒有中斷跟美國的交易但是我認為站在國家的發展長遠來看其實"},{"start":14417.905,"end":14441.864,"text":"你說川普這樣的很多行為很多人對他是非常憤怒但是其實站在川普的角度看如果說我們換到我們每一個人換到川普這個位置來看其實他也是站在自己的角度可能在為了自己的國家在爭取貿易上面更多的有利的一個條件每一個人的角度來看你要美國要拿的多那其他國家要拿的少美國更有利一點的條件那其他國家就去"},{"start":14442.544,"end":14458.564,"text":"你也是我覺得每個條件不一樣那每一個國家都是在為了自己的產業在做最好的政策的規劃那在這樣子的方向我覺得在未來啦你們國家在發展上面你們未來人會持續用以美國為最大的比如說你們未來在輔導一些"},{"start":14461.327,"end":14475.279,"text":"產業創立或是輔導產業在做國際貿易的時候你們一樣會把美國當作一個最大的攔子嗎還是你們會記取這一次的經驗你們會認為說全球貿易應該是一個分散化的一個一個分散化的一個"},{"start":14476.52,"end":14497.067,"text":"的態度來讓產業能夠分散風險我的主張一向是多元佈局因為在全球的進口的總額就每個國家進口的金額加總美國大概占18%左右大概還有82%的進口市場就是市在別的地方對我們來講是出口市場"},{"start":14498.507,"end":14521.063,"text":"所以我比較主張的是我們要多元步其實這個就是最近我們國家常常講的韌性其實貿易也必須要有韌性所以在未來或許說在過去一段時間因為政治的關係或什麼的關係我們過度的依賴美國但是我們現在也知道說每個國家都是以自己國家的利益為最大的利益在調整自己的政策那我覺得在國家發展委員會的立場那未來也希望主委可以秉持你剛剛所說的"},{"start":14522.484,"end":14536.456,"text":"就是一個分散化的一個概念全球平均的佈局跟投資讓我們的產業在國際的貿易上面更有韌性好不好 主委所以以上 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝現在請葉元之委員做詢答請主委 謝謝劉主委"},{"start":14557.957,"end":14584.908,"text":"主委您其實是有兩種身份一個您是國防局主委你也是台積電的官方的股東所以問到台積電這個問題的話我覺得你的角色是比較尷尬一方面你要配合政府政策另外一方面你要兼顧到企業的獲利所以我想問一下這個官方董事有關於台積電一些大家關注議題的一些態度第一個是昨天傳出來說川普希望台積電去增加投資3000億美金那最新的說法又變2000億對不對"},{"start":14586.269,"end":14601.254,"text":"那你的了解是怎樣我們的了解目前台積電沒有討論過這些事情台積電沒有啦那川普有期望嘛那是他的個人期望個人期望我知道你早有這樣講但因為下週就有台積電董事會你會去開嗎"},{"start":14603.619,"end":14626.778,"text":"我會去你會去 請問一下現在如果直接問你 在董事會裡面川普要求台積電多投資兩千億美金那不曉得你的態度 以及台積電的態度會是怎樣我還是要看台積電的分析啦那這種投資一定要分析嘛那分析利弊 分析所有的一切嘛那我等待他的分析啦但是會不會討論我也"},{"start":14630.081,"end":14652.442,"text":"至少應該沒有在議題內目前所以下週董事會不會討論到台積電要不要去增加投資這個議題我們沒辦法去會不會有臨時的議題但是至少目前我們沒有要至少目前是沒有昨天提出來那如果台積電還是要看台積電有沒有把他納入議題來討論"},{"start":14654.108,"end":14671.98,"text":"因為你也是董事之一嘛而且你又是官方的代表你應該不是被動對你也是有一些主動權所以才來請教你的態度我沒辦法在董事會跟他們講說聽到媒體川普有這樣講你要不要這樣做那如果按照主委這樣講法還是要由經營團隊來對他經營的現況的狀態提出評估"},{"start":14679.025,"end":14701.146,"text":"至於他要不要take這樣的想法也是經營團隊做出我們看到魏哲嘉董事長他講的最新的說法是說台積電目前就是投資1650億美金所以目前還是以這個態度那您是說下週沒有這個議題但是不知道會不會忽然間有臨時提案這目前您掌握的狀況這個是"},{"start":14703.649,"end":14709.156,"text":"謝謝那另外一個就是我早上有看到你發言你說即便是232川普的關稅加到100%你覺得也沒問題因為台灣沒有禁交利我沒有說一定沒有問題但是對我們的衝擊相較別的國家來看目前我們的衝擊是"},{"start":14720.189,"end":14743.518,"text":"還算是那是因為別的國家半導體也要100%的狀況他也是100%然後大家都是100%的狀況多數沒有在美國設置就是同樣條件情況之下你認為我們有競爭力所以不會是從競爭的角度我早上的說法是我們在這個業界我們是領先的國家我知道我還沒有問問題但是我的問題是說你現在是用競爭的角度在談這個事但問題是你今天可能會產生兩個問題第一個如果"},{"start":14749.782,"end":14750.204,"text":"232關稅是100%半導體是100%的話"},{"start":14752.677,"end":14780.689,"text":"那還是會壓縮到台積電的獲利啊還是會啊因為到時候品牌商有可能會叫台積電來分擔這個關稅所產生的成本嘛這是第一個問題嘛第二個問題是那產業他有沒有可能因為不想要付這100%他就直接就移到美國去這也是有可能那如果移過去的話會影響到國內的就業嘛其實還有第三個問題啦第三個問題就是那這個232其實他影響的不是只有半導體產業"},{"start":14781.829,"end":14805.604,"text":"他還有影響其他電子業那其他的電子業是不是如你所講的在全球都是這麼有都是那麼樂觀所以不曉得這個主委你是怎麼看待這個事情針對台積電的部分因為台積電在美國十幾年前就設廠了在奧拉岡州那亞利桑那的第一廠也也都蓋好了所以他"},{"start":14806.224,"end":14827.962,"text":"已經符合川普零關稅的條件所以今天台積電我剛剛聽其他委員的分享是股價的大漲因為它本身更具競爭力因為台積電關稅是零那當然台灣有一些已經在美國有工廠的那你這次這個過程看起來都有受惠啦"},{"start":14829.086,"end":14850.036,"text":"那另外對於其他廠商我想我今天早上也說明很多次我們其實都做過座談會我們當然那時候的關稅沒有到那麼高只是大家在談關稅是說只要是齊頭式的大家競爭對手也是拉那麼高的話他們認為就競爭的角度我們就所以主委對不起我們時間有限所以你認為說這個232關稅就算"},{"start":14853.277,"end":14879.236,"text":"再高其實對台積電或是其他廠商來說是有利的你的結論是這樣委員你這個結論是不對的因為你剛剛講說因為他們在那個美國已經有廠啦所以這不會影響它嘛我講的是叫相較喔我知道我知道當你都在100%的時候相較其他的地方但是我剛剛提的是它有沒有可能它有沒有可能就更增加投資嘛但是對台積電是沒有等一下我沒有講完喔就是說它有沒有可能會因為它"},{"start":14880.217,"end":14887.289,"text":"產業就直接移過去然後不想被抽太多然後甚至壓縮利潤嘛我剛剛講的是這個嘛你沒有回答嘛對我最後問一個問題你的台積電"},{"start":14890.396,"end":14910.241,"text":"因為那個工程最近有發生有工程師就竊取二奈米的機密資料那昨天大家在討論說是日本這個廠商日本廠商有一個合作的廠商是他們的晶片國家隊所以我不知道說我們現在政府包括主委您同時是國會主委您也本身也是台積電的官方董事"},{"start":14911.221,"end":14920.14,"text":"你對於日本有公司然後利用這種方式可能疑似得到我們的二代名的機密資料你的態度是什麼"},{"start":14922.558,"end":14947.803,"text":"我的態度是很清楚的第一個我們我第一個時間其實我有這個去通知這個台積電請他說明因為我們希望能夠從此把門關起來其實遇到問題解決問題比較重要那我們先把這個問題要解決掉把門關好那台積電看起來已經做好了新的各種的因為這是他主動偵測那現在他主要是"},{"start":14951.164,"end":14966.703,"text":"主要的原因他们也在解决那就政府而言检调出去之后国客会也进来依据国安法的部分都进来了那相关权责单位也进来了那整个背后的犯案动机可能要经过检调调查的结果了"},{"start":14966.883,"end":14982.617,"text":"我們現在可能很難影射說就是哪一家公司那看當事人的犯案動機經過偵查之後應該會有一個明朗的結果所以你現在的態度就是說先只有就是先防避不要再讓這個事情再繼續然後第二個是說減掉介入那政府現在面對"},{"start":14983.678,"end":15001.692,"text":"可能日本的公司他現在疑似竊取了我們機密那這件事情政府的態度是什麼我不是說針對台積電政府的態度很清楚這是一個國安的問題所以我們會引用國安法來處理但是因為你的意思是說因為國安法是針對我們內部嘛我現在是說政府對外因為這是日本的公司啊你們態度是什麼"},{"start":15002.574,"end":15020.354,"text":"我的態度很清楚你不要講說對台積電的態度或者是說對犯案我的態度剛才也講得很清楚我們必須偵查清楚這個當事人犯案的背後的動機他背後是不是一定是日本人其實我們現在是一個議程因為這是國與國的事情我們必須把事情查得很清楚"},{"start":15020.874,"end":15036.763,"text":"然後再來做決定那現在因為人都已經在都在剪掉的掌握上了他應該可以查清楚查清楚之後如果是牽涉到國與國你才會有一個比較強硬的態度出來是不是應該會依據事實來做決定啦好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":15047.691,"end":15065.144,"text":"我們現在請蔡易餘委員詢答好 謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":15075.848,"end":15086.805,"text":"主委那因為川普昨天又公布了針對半導體所謂100%然後有在美國設廠就不再豁免的概念但是這個大概"},{"start":15088.284,"end":15110.097,"text":"還不是很明確因為川普這樣的宣示但是相對比較明確的是8月7號已經上路的這個暫時性關稅那台灣就是20%所以我們看起來就是說對美國逆差的國家包括台灣是美國第六大逆差的第六差國家所以台灣在跟美國談判"},{"start":15111.458,"end":15124.61,"text":"當然可能要面對相對比較大的壓力他會希望台灣要釋出我們一些產品的進口的關稅的下降或者是其他的方式但是這個20%來確實有很多國人在"},{"start":15129.794,"end":15143.582,"text":"再比較就是跟日本跟韓國那跟日本台灣跟日本呢產品的事實上互補性比較高一點所以我們跟日本相對來說同樣在出口美國的我們的競爭競爭比較少比較少"},{"start":15145.623,"end":15172.669,"text":"但是相對的韓國就比較多了是的所以我想要請教的就是主委就是說韓國過去跟美國因為有FTA有自由貿易協定所以他們在於FTA的一個架構之下韓國跟美國之間有超過95%的商品是零關稅沒錯95%的商品那是過去的時代但是川普看起來他的這個對等關稅"},{"start":15174.229,"end":15201.658,"text":"他是推翻了過去的自由貿易協定是這樣的沒有錯那自然推翻了過去的自由貿易協定那台灣跟韓國過去在競爭上因為韓國有FTA台灣跟美國還沒有簽署了BTA或者是FTA那是不是台灣跟韓國之間過去應該就有所謂稅率的劣勢我們的廠商在出口美國的這一塊"},{"start":15202.858,"end":15225.913,"text":"就非科技產品式的非科技產品嘛在WTO的豁免清單裡面的話大家是條件沒有差異很大WTO這個架構之下大家是一樣的嘛但是在這個豁免清單在科技產品類以外的我們的確在稅率上面我們是因為它有FTA的優勢"},{"start":15226.721,"end":15241.327,"text":"它有FTA的優勢所以可能台灣過去有一些產品在在銷售美國的時候我們可能也會有課3% 5%幾%對不對那現在好現在又比較起來在對等關稅下韓國是15%那台灣是20%"},{"start":15247.52,"end":15268.895,"text":"我們差了這5%但是如果再把之前FTA的因素來做一個稍微扣掉多少事實上差的%數也許沒有那麼多甚至也許在過去可能台灣跟韓國我們被課5%以上的那會不會因為15%跟20%的差距反而減少了跟韓國的競爭的關稅的劣勢"},{"start":15278.11,"end":15305.908,"text":"目前我的認知是沒有啦沒有這樣的狀況目前是沒有為什麼呢因為它是增增加增的加增在那個既有稅率下加增所以我們現在的20%就在既有的稅率上加增再加增好那這一次我要問的第二個問題因為今天日本日本就忽然出了一個新聞說日本方面也去說哇原來他們的15%"},{"start":15307.788,"end":15330.653,"text":"是指以前低於15%的以前低於15%的就是以15%來計算那如果高於在以前他的商品是高於15%的那就不是15%還是用之前的一個關稅這是日本今天有這樣的一個訊息出來所以他們認為說這樣的話並不是所有商品都退到15%"},{"start":15332.939,"end":15347.705,"text":"那未來我們台灣的談判也是這樣的邏輯嗎我相信我們現在台灣團隊是很聰明的啦他如果有看到日本這個訊息應該會納進來做談判的討論因為這個訊息跑出來嘛因為日本已經發現說這個15%並不是所有商品一律15%他是指說過去是20%的雖然已經談到15%可是還是一樣用20%來計算"},{"start":15361.902,"end":15377.813,"text":"因為這時候很多是美國單方面因為他們主導談判嘛所以他們很多決策是他們在做在做決策但是在談判的時候剛剛講到的就是說這個部分我們台灣應該也要注意啊對我覺得這個應該我們會注意到"},{"start":15381.463,"end":15406.83,"text":"還是我們已經注意到了因為我們注意到是歐盟的部分因為歐盟已經有寫出來那有協議但是歐盟的協議是怎樣日本當時好像沒有協議歐盟是全部都是15%他是說原稅率高於15%的就不再加徵那原稅率低於15%的課15%那跟日本有點一樣因為他是加徵稅率的加徵"},{"start":15408.939,"end":15435.874,"text":"所以原稅這樣我還是不懂你剛剛說我們台灣如果原稅率是5%原稅率5%那在對等關稅之下是加徵台幣25是這樣嗎台灣目前是這樣但是等到談判的結果像歐盟這樣的寫法就變成是說舉個例子歐盟的做法就會我們20%然後原稅率是5%的話他就會直接寫出來是20%"},{"start":15437.675,"end":15462.274,"text":"歐盟是這樣歐盟是這樣做他就是原稅率如果是5%原稅率如果低於15%的就以15%算就以15%算他沒有加徵OK他沒有加徵那原稅如果高於15%的呢就以原稅率就以原稅率這是歐盟的那就跟日本一樣啦對日本也是這樣類似這樣所以日本可能他們原本期待都是15%結果後來發現他們跟歐盟也一樣"},{"start":15465.356,"end":15479.061,"text":"如果原稅率高於15%的他們一樣是被課原稅因為這個有像在232裡面對銅這些銅鐵這種有50%的稅嘛那是232的規範232又是另外232啊就不在這15%就不在這他們的15%的那個稅率的規範就會在50%來課證所以這跟我的理解又不一樣所以232不是累加的"},{"start":15495.685,"end":15519.442,"text":"232就是說如果232的稅率已經定在那邊了就繼續走232對繼續走232所以不管不管20不管有沒有這個20存在他們就是繼續走232包括這次的晶片就會就會也就不在這個範圍晶片就是另外嘛對不對所以我們我們大概有74%點幾的產品向是在232的範圍對我們的商品在232很多對"},{"start":15525.373,"end":15534.444,"text":"嗯 諸位應該我的時間不多啦可是我覺得我們這樣的一個對話我還是很多概念我沒辦法釐清所以我覺得國冷會更亂"},{"start":15535.991,"end":15559.577,"text":"那當然現在還在談判的一個階段中我是覺得說我們整個談判的過程就是要把所有對我們不利以及我們有利的因素都整理好那以及現在因為現在歐盟跟日本現在也發現說有很多狀況好像跟他們談判的時候的預期是不一樣的那這些東西如果我們這個戰爭性關稅我們還在進行接下來的談判我覺得這些東西我們有機會都要跟美國說得好"},{"start":15565.043,"end":15581.178,"text":"好不好 盡量朝向讓它是簡單 然後大家是知道的好的 我們會轉如果是說好 單純是用232那232我們現在在談判也在一併談嘛那到底未來不要再累加 累加就比較可怕"},{"start":15582.345,"end":15606.081,"text":"這我們不知道啦我們希望你們好好談但是整個狀況如果談出了一個有一個結論之後要跟國人報告可能就要把這一些我剛設想的有很多到底是怎麼累加或者是高於原本高於20%的部分或是高於多少的部分那以後是要怎麼計算我剛剛都要給國人一次的說明清楚好不好好的好的我會轉達謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":15608.462,"end":15633.431,"text":"好謝謝我們就等最後關稅談判結束之後就是請院長來跟立法院報告也跟國人報告在這裡好那發言登記發言委員出不在場外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林黛樺張家俊張啟凱所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":15634.992,"end":15643.596,"text":"书面质询及未答复部分请相关单位于周内书面答复并复制本会本日议程处理完毕现在散会"}]}},{"id":"16853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16853","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dd5c812cc40ec4487ad9f551ce5fa921f6b3d2f3de1678a212d56576c8b5eb01b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部部長列席就「全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策」進行專題報告並備質詢。\n二、邀請教育部部長、國家科學及技術委員會、衛生福利部列席就「如何強化研究計畫之人體研究倫理把關機制，以保障人權，捍衛科研價值，並避免類似台師大女足抽血違反研究倫理之案件再次發生」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n三、邀請教育部部長、行政院人事行政總處及行政院主計總處列席就「9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃」進行專題報告並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-07T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-07T14:02:00+08:00","duration":19905,"影片長度":"05:31:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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一 繼續審查委員柯之恩等22人拟據運動產業發展條例第24條及第26條條文修正草案案等9案二 審查行政院行情審議運動產業發展條例第13條第26條及第26條之2條文修正草案案等24案"},{"start":1858.067,"end":1885.372,"text":"決議一對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料後會及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以順便答覆二 運動產業發展條例相關修正草案全部審查完略不需交由黨團協商並按理據審查報告提請院會討論院會討論時有可召集委員如今補充說明審查結果如下一 第十三條 第二十六條及第二十六條之二均照行政院提案通過"},{"start":1886.232,"end":1909.9,"text":"二 第八條 趙委員 蔡其昌等17人提案通過三 第二條 第四條 第24條及第三三條均不予以修正 維持現行條文通過附帶決議兩項三 在不影響條文文憶前提下文字調適標點符號為統一體例授權議事人員修改 未以採納條文授權議事人員確認 宣讀完畢好"},{"start":1914.946,"end":1939.127,"text":"在場委員現在未達議決人數三人所以我們議事錄暫不確定那我們今天的議程是第一邀請教育部部長列席就全國中小學教師人力不足現況與具體因應對策進行專題報告並備質詢第二邀請教育部部長國家科學及技術委員會"},{"start":1940.468,"end":1952.074,"text":"衛生福利部列席就如何強化研究計畫之人體研究倫理把關機制以保障人權捍衛科研價值"},{"start":1953.975,"end":1972.49,"text":"並避免類似台師大女卒抽血違反研究倫理之案件再次發生進行專題報告並被質詢第三邀請交易部部長行政院人事行政總處以及行政院主計處列席就"},{"start":1973.551,"end":1993.527,"text":"9月9日運動部成立籌備情形與後續推動規劃進行專題報告並備質詢我們首先介紹在場委員柯志恩委員讓我們其次介紹與會官員教育部部長鄭義耀部長"},{"start":1996.468,"end":2021.111,"text":"那我們也非常感謝教育部有多位同仁長官這個機關同仁一起來列席參加有包括但不限於國民及學前教育署署長彭署長彭復原署長教育部體育署署長鄭士忠鄭署長教育部青年發展署署長陳雪益陳署長"},{"start":2022.711,"end":2047.026,"text":"那我們也有國立台灣師範大學校長吳政吉吳校長國立台灣師範大學研究倫理審查委員會主任委員陳學志國家科學及技術委員會副主任委員蘇政剛蘇副主委法務部參事汪南君參事汪參事謝謝"},{"start":2049.069,"end":2064.12,"text":"衛福部醫事司司長劉月平劉司長謝謝衛福部科技發展組高級研究員黃景堂黃研究員謝謝財產法人醫院評鑒暨醫療品質測定會副執行長許惠淑謝謝財產法人醫院評鑒暨醫療品質測定會專案管理師陳佩玉謝謝"},{"start":2077.731,"end":2097.556,"text":"那我們有行政院人事行政總處主編人力處處長邱怡章邱處長謝謝行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員張正輝張專委謝謝那我們現在先請教育部鄭英耀政部長進行報告報告時間8分鐘"},{"start":2113.393,"end":2128.683,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早今天本人應邀列席貴委員會會議報告全國中小學教師供需現況與具體因應策略如何強化研究計畫"},{"start":2130.066,"end":2159.5,"text":"人體研究倫理把關機制保障人權捍衛科研價值以及9月9號運動部即將成立籌備的情形以及後續推動規劃並得聆聽各位委員著見深感榮幸承蒙各位長期對教育事務的關心敬請繼續給予指證與支持以下僅就以上三案進行說明一在全國中小學教師人力不足現況以具體因應策略方面"},{"start":2160.66,"end":2175.565,"text":"本部依我國施肢培育數量規劃方案原定施肢供需指標並參採退休數少子女化及政策推動等影響因素滾動檢視施肢供需情形"},{"start":2176.385,"end":2198.793,"text":"第二經觀察一年疫情前後教師增市開缺總數有增長之現象系授師生筆法規原額政策及地方政府新興區與發展等因素影響所致以數據分析取得教師證書者於當年度擔任教職之比例約有六成取得"},{"start":2199.753,"end":2219.186,"text":"教師證後餘三年內報考校增人數約有七成五在五年內報考也有八成顯示新取證的老師仍有穩定投入教職的一個趨勢第三本部透過職權培育增量公費培育擴增偏鄉及"},{"start":2222.099,"end":2240.769,"text":"需加強培育類科學士或學文班規劃彈性聘用等機制吸納具業界或高教經驗者投入教職預估115年2月將可聘任專技教師教學資源教師以及17年期也可增加935名中小學師資投入職場同時調高實習"},{"start":2247.292,"end":2258.237,"text":"獎助金放寬職前教育學分得納入畢業學分才任及調升公會待遇來吸引優秀學生投入第四"},{"start":2259.673,"end":2285.501,"text":"另外在改善教職環境部分積極落實行政減量建立教師諮商輔導支持體系及持續調整薪資待遇促進教師留任以透過完備兼任代課代理教師工作權益推動全國代理教師完整聘期的一致性增訂合格代理教師採記職前年資的規定以提升代理教師的福利"},{"start":2286.533,"end":2313.867,"text":"另外有關如何增強研究計畫的這一個人體研究倫理把關機制首先在保障研究對象權益本部以人體研究法第18條規定定有教育部人體研究倫理審查委員會查核作業要點以及不定期追蹤查核作業要點並跨部會設置大專校園研究倫理組織及運作指導委員會審議相關事項"},{"start":2316.69,"end":2342.998,"text":"其次本部在113年11月接獲台師大計畫設有違法訊息及要求校方調查經校方調查報告確認違法後本部於114年3月及5月分別召開決議裁判主持人及共同主持人各50萬元的罰款這是法令上規範對PI跟COPI最高的一個罰款"},{"start":2344.919,"end":2360.35,"text":"並禁止一年內申請政府研究補助台式大滑110萬元滑款從114年7月1日起暫停受理新案人體研究之審查三"},{"start":2361.801,"end":2383.615,"text":"關於霸凌案的部分本部於1月4年7月18日召開審議會認定周師行為拿解聘要件並請台師大司法處分校方已重新決議解聘並禁聘4年令本部以設有單一窗口提供歷年女足隊員申訴檢舉輔導及法律諮詢"},{"start":2388.41,"end":2402.976,"text":"第四,本部已組成跨部會專案小組,清查陳詩與周詩協議樣本研究,將查核台師大、北師大、台大IRB運作,並以督導台師大。"},{"start":2404.059,"end":2428.737,"text":"拟足事件及協助學生處理、送省費用拟足協議撤銷周師教練證後續將折憂學校辦理官模訓練並延續將IRB列入學校內基及跨部會聯合查核強化查核的頻率第三,有關9月9日運動部成立的籌備情形跟後續推動規劃部分"},{"start":2430.874,"end":2447.127,"text":"首先為落實總統政見以運動壯大台灣之願景成立運動部在現有的競技運動發展基礎下重視全民運動投入的嶄新思維將競技運動全民化、全民化、社區化及產業化"},{"start":2448.228,"end":2464.419,"text":"推動新的政策運動政策以組織創新思想翻轉全新推進為主軸秉持提倡全民運動風氣強化選手培育及權益保障推動運動產業發展推展國際運動事務並強化試運運動等各大精神開啟台灣運動文化的新篇章"},{"start":2473.396,"end":2487.955,"text":"其次運動部組織架構規劃一部一署三中心下設全民運動署令增設國家運動產業發展中心與國家運動訓練中心國家運動科學中心共同合作"},{"start":2489.198,"end":2515.757,"text":"其次本部依行政院諮詢小組及籌備小組會議建議就業務及政策規劃推動方向及籌備作業歸納多項重要議題如競技運動全民化全民運動產業化及加強運動外交等研擬推動方案籌備事項將如期完成令學校體育分工延遲涉及一般體育教學由本部辦理"},{"start":2516.437,"end":2517.622,"text":"運動專業部分則由運動部辦理"},{"start":2521.516,"end":2549.23,"text":"最後 運動部組織相關法案經行政院自9月9日施行與當日分別辦理運動部及全民運動署結牌部長及署長部達典禮讓台灣的運動邁向新的里程碑最後 本部將不斷優化多元失智培育制度持續督導研究倫理機關及台師大落實改進強化制度與防範風險並如期如質完成運動部的成立"},{"start":2551.604,"end":2558.764,"text":"引領台灣運動發展開創嶄新篇章謝謝主席謝謝所有的委員敬請指導謝謝"},{"start":2561.82,"end":2584.015,"text":"好 謝謝部長的報告說明那我們現在在場人數已達三人我們先確定上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好 沒有那我們就議事錄確定那我們現在回來接下來請國家科學及技術委員會蘇副主委進行報告報告時間四分鐘"},{"start":2591.755,"end":2619.912,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好成大院教育及文化委員會安排有關研究計畫之人體研究倫理把關機制等議題專案專題報告以下僅就本會調查處理現況及未來改進作為進行報告敬請各位委員會與指導首先本會補助涉案計畫處理過程及進度研究計畫如涉及人體試驗均因應人體研究法辦理"},{"start":2620.532,"end":2636.807,"text":"本會也針對補助專題研究計畫及學術倫理案件定有相關處置規定涉案計畫也就是建構新世代精準女性足球運動生心理傷害及表現的智慧感測與衡建平台這支計畫"},{"start":2638.028,"end":2654.241,"text":"為四年期的計劃以核定執行期程為112年至114年共三年核定總經費約2700萬元其中台師大執行部分為520萬元本會專案小組截至6月已召開三次會議"},{"start":2655.442,"end":2682.531,"text":"期間請台師大說明包含受試者及費用迴繳情形相關執行人員以台師大女足隊為研究對象之其他計畫以及其輪省會運作管理機制等專案小組已確認本案違反研究倫理但因調查未盡詳時故續於7月17日再函請台灣師範大學於一個月內進行完整調查"},{"start":2684.272,"end":2711.474,"text":"並啟動學術倫理調查程序其次我們與教育部以及相關部會組成跨部會的專案小組共同查處相關的案件專案小組截至目前為止已召開三次會議全面清查陳中慶、周台英兩人執行血液樣本運用之研究計畫由教育部及衛福部依全責立案調查並安排實地的查核"},{"start":2713.066,"end":2730.499,"text":"本會體育學領域清查結果也送兩部續查如有違法情勢將進行裁罰第三 全面清查及初步發現近四年本會補助資體育學領域計畫共614件其中涉及學藝樣本者共97件屬台師大致計畫共105件其中23件涉及學藝樣本佔所有涉及學藝樣本計畫約24%"},{"start":2741.587,"end":2764.634,"text":"本會以優先清查陳中慶教授及周台英教練兩人歷年計劃初步發現1.經比對陳述案件期間除陳教授執行之精準運科專案計劃因上有其他計劃同時進行抽材血液樣本的量與頻率及跨計劃跨部會執行期間交諜上帶進一步仔細調查"},{"start":2765.874,"end":2793.529,"text":"檢察署也已主動偵辦本會也已清查是否有受試者費用繳回等不當運用情形將主動移送檢調本會補助計畫以同儕審查機制辦理研究人員受試人員等相關利益迴避倫理意識主動揭露資訊等均有待強化最後在改定作為方面本會將積極回應各界對學術研究環境的期待持續推動學術倫理健全發展"},{"start":2794.81,"end":2808.865,"text":"將參考相關的文獻及意見增訂研究人員專業倫理守則及精進學術倫理相關規定提高罰則並強化違反研究倫理太陽適用之處理法據持續優化審查機制"},{"start":2811.652,"end":2835.64,"text":"從重視論文數量轉向關注實質影響與社會貢獻積極營造更具價值與信賴的科研環境以上報告懇請委員指導敬祝各位委員身體健康順遂疲幹謝謝謝謝書副主委的報告那我們接下來請衛生福利部劉司長進行報告報告時間三分鐘"},{"start":2841.468,"end":2860.981,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生大家好今天大院第十一屆第三會期教育文化委員會召開了全體委員會議本部列席報告深感榮幸之就如何強化研究計畫之人體研究倫理把關機制提出專案報告敬請各位委員不吝賜"},{"start":2862.842,"end":2875.639,"text":"指教考量人體研究的範圍廣泛基於醫療法所列的人體試驗及人體生物資料庫研究以訂立相關規範為了保障人體研究對象的權益本部在"},{"start":2877.045,"end":2904.886,"text":"一百年十二月二十八日公布了人體研究法明定了研究計畫的審查研究對象權益的保障研究計畫的管理相關的規範針對此次國立台灣師範大學陳姓教授執行之建構新世代精準女性足球運動生理心理傷害及表現的智慧感測橫見平台違反人體研究法的規定以致研究學生"},{"start":2905.766,"end":2925.251,"text":"受傷害 本部將持續辦理下列事項一 有關人體研究計畫涉及抽血之疑義將召開討論的會議邀集設有審查會之中用事業目的事業主管機關及相關單位 含班補充的含釋二"},{"start":2925.771,"end":2949.725,"text":"考量研究案件的類型廣泛各中央事業目的主管機關亦得依其業務性質定定查核基準維修研究倫理等共同性的議題本部你成立專案小組並以本部查核作業規範為基礎協助教育部檢視其現行監督管理審查機制是否完備並提供修正意見於教育部"},{"start":2951.366,"end":2976.1,"text":"3.檢視現行的行政指導並修正研究用人體檢體採集使用注意事項人體研究倫理政策指引人體研究法的立法精神是在保障人體研究的研究對象的權益現行的法尊已在應告之事項且不得以強制利誘或不正當方式為之為了保障研究對象以及倫理規範的落實將協助中央"},{"start":2978.942,"end":2987.991,"text":"實現目的主管機關強化監理機制本部城大院各委員的指導及監督在此呈至謝程並期各委員予以繼續支持好 謝謝劉市長口頭報告"},{"start":2997.219,"end":3015.993,"text":"其他機關的相關書面資料請隱蔽參閱讓我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢八分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘列席委員質詢時間為四分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午十點三十分"},{"start":3016.693,"end":3038.162,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員范雲質詢結束後即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位柯志恩委員質詢好謝謝召委我們是不是先請我們的教育部政部長"},{"start":3047.527,"end":3047.547,"text":"請鄭部長備諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":3057.278,"end":3082.688,"text":"部长好我还是针对台师大的女足的部分就教育部长因为这件事情现在目前处理告一段落但是我想有关后续的检讨的机制还有如何避免它发生我想我们还是必须要做一个厘清那我想这件事情在去年11月就已经爆发但是教育部跟国科会的积极处理的态度我们先来看一下那部长你知不知道国科会什么时候成立专案小组的"},{"start":3084.503,"end":3109.48,"text":"跟我們報告 事實上這件事情發生在11月28日被揭露你知道國科會什麼時候成立專案小組 國科剛剛已經有報過過我現在只要指名 這個時候就看出 因為這裡面牽涉到兩個我們中央部會一個是國科會 一個是教育部 國科會在11月 隔天11月29號就馬上發文要台灣世大兩個禮拜內就要把這一個做掉"},{"start":3110.481,"end":3129.873,"text":"但是我懂啊所以说呢你看韩寝世大他们也算是快成立专案小组是12月23号没错吧国科会动作不算是太慢可惜的是我们这半年以后呢国科会跟台世大都在公文往返那我想教育部在半年里面做什么国科会做了教育部做什么"},{"start":3131.564,"end":3157.226,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上在12月16號就發文給教育這個針對台師大因為國會科會所責成的台師大的調查我們就因為教育這個師大把這個調查給教育部我們也責成他有許多的這個疑點還要再進一步查清在12月16號我們就已經好我們來看一下1月2號的時候台師大將倫理調查報告送給教育部"},{"start":3157.786,"end":3175.683,"text":"并且确定它是有违反人体的研究的法规那去年的时候呢国科会马上就可以专案小组并开了三次的会议我刚刚看到了副组委报告最后不是到今年5月19号才成立的这个专案会议没错吧跟委员报告晚了七个月"},{"start":3176.303,"end":3182.106,"text":"沒有 我們在3月6號事實上就召開第一次的好 那顯然為什麼到我們現在才鬧得沸沸揚揚就是這兩個部會所做的這些狀況沒有辦法滿足這些受害學生的需求否則這件事情如果早有處理就不會鬧到全國皆知那我現在想了解因為你前天的新聞就告訴我們說教育部目前有到三個學校台大 台市大 北市大三個學校裡面 因為我們"},{"start":3204.119,"end":3219.177,"text":"有IRB可以做这样一个申请的审核的部分全国有13个嘛对不对你们为什么前天才去看这三个地方不是应该更早吗这事情发生已经这么久了七个月时间为什么前天才去看这三个学校"},{"start":3220.055,"end":3240.644,"text":"跟委員報告我們事實上因為有很多在調查委員在大學也任教也是本身是大學教授出身所以所有的這個程序裡面我們都是依法而且快速的處理我知道啦部長我現在是說我們要來檢討但是我是說你前天才去然後新聞發布我們總覺得這個動作是有點太慢了"},{"start":3241.464,"end":3250.146,"text":"針對學校的許多的東西對好那我就來看嘛因為根據我們的法規上面教育部是對於這個輪審會是絕對具有監督跟輔導的一個角色因為這是根據我們的一個要點你必須要對於這個部分我想請過去這麼多年來教育部有對於創校這個13個輪審會裡面有任何的抽查或"},{"start":3263.209,"end":3282.288,"text":"排除台世大這個案子外,有任何抽查跟輔導,有發現任何不符合IRB的這個部分嗎?你們有做過嗎?有做過這樣的動作嗎?有幾次?過去十年有幾次?跟柯偉文報告,在從109年到113年當中,我們都有近期或者是不近期有幾次?對,這13個學校做了這個抽查有幾次?"},{"start":3285.971,"end":3308.836,"text":"基本上每一間學校都有進行抽查每一年都進入抽查我們每一年我們一百零九年開始對於這些十三所學校不定期抽查但是我們都有抽查過一輪這些相關的資料我們可以會後提供好我現在想要了解我要想了解你們到底是說因為你現在都有法規在那顯然是這個法規上面跟執行層面上出現了一個很大的落差不好意思我是不是可以請我們的陳學志主委"},{"start":3309.796,"end":3311.817,"text":"虽然我们过去在这个幽默心理学上"},{"start":3341.817,"end":3364.391,"text":"我們在審查的時候看到他提出來資料裡面並沒有一天抽三次血只有一天抽一次血然後那個實際的時候我們去問的時候很多學生也是說都是只有一天抽一次血只有他沒有辦法抽足的時候才會再補抽所以這個案子事先也都有送給那個校外的醫生來做審查"},{"start":3365.071,"end":3383.278,"text":"所以说你们经过校外医生你们认为这个案子就是他们所呈报上去不是一天三次是一天一次而且医生认为这个是符合我们一般的健康一般的规准所以你们才会允许所以当他这个学生爆料说一天三次的时候而且不止一个学生的时候你们轮审会的态度会是什么"},{"start":3384.298,"end":3399.165,"text":"報告委員我們有去追查而且我會去把原來資料調出來而且我們發現在精準運動科學的時候並沒有發現因為會議是人員抽血因為主持人都有把護士的證照抽血時間跟匯款的紀錄"},{"start":3400.245,"end":3417.559,"text":"我觉得这个咨询上是有一些的落差特别你刚刚说你只看到一次这个学生确实三次这就是我等一下要特别问到部长的就是我们现在虽然有建立这样一个机制但是呢不管是我们的IRB或是REC完全是在落实跟申请等等之间到底是出现在什么样的问题所以说呢"},{"start":3418.3,"end":3437.663,"text":"那个轮审会一次然后也觉得符合这个医生所说的可是到最后结果却是老师执行计划的申请人竟然是做的跟他们送这个计划的时候是有一些执行上的落差我这样说没有错吧那这部分未来教育部该怎么办来陈老师你可以回座这个那教育部你该怎么办对这样的问题"},{"start":3438.223,"end":3438.243,"text":"市長"},{"start":3462.543,"end":3489.443,"text":"这个部长这是我们今天执行这个最主要的目的因为我们都有这个法规我们都有这个单位在这个地方可是要是不是爆发出台师大这件事情的话没人想到包括我们自己的学生在做这样子有关于论文的时候他都要经过这样的申请那基本上面因为没有牵涉到这个血液的这个部分所以大家就是用这个方法来了稍微看看就让他通过然后发现执行层面是有一些问题我现在接下来请企业署长也要一起上来因为呢"},{"start":3490.163,"end":3511.278,"text":"基本上面除了国客会这个报告之外呢这个我们的周教授跟我们这个陈宗庆教授呢他有申请的运发基金里面的150万也是来做这个裁写这样的部分申请到你们运发基金因为这跟国客会是不一样申请单位不一样所以当然审查单位不一样那我想请问一下你认为这署长你也在大学教书"},{"start":3511.718,"end":3530.278,"text":"你认为这件案子里面有没有违反这个受试者愿意抽血因为他也有采血而且第一时间我还是要强调镇署长你还帮他们洗地你告诉我说抽血不等于采血但是呢而且你们告诉我们说这个部分IRB这个部分呢对你们这个领域当中是未来的趋势结果呢你看看"},{"start":3530.959,"end":3533.361,"text":"在這個報告當中明明這個所謂的抽血這樣的一件事情還有送請IRB的這樣審核機制也有啊他也有條列在那邊他要申請經費耶那怎麼可能沒有呢體育署在面對這件狀況怎麼說"},{"start":3546.932,"end":3561.818,"text":"報告委員我想這個是周台英老師跟陳宗敬老師他本身就違反了我們一開始的運科資源計畫的精神我們的計畫是用現有的研究成果來應用在選手的"},{"start":3562.858,"end":3587.211,"text":"你這邊有提過運動訓練服務不是人體研究對不對所以他不能夠拿來做研究所以他本身違反了這個規定所以這又是一個問題嘛他你們讓他有150萬的錢用你們的運發基金然後呢他的執行你們現在都告訴我說他違反那這中間落差到怎麼樣我們所有的東西都配備我們所有的審查機制都已經擺在那個地方可是你發現所有執行的東西跟當初跟你們申請跟你們發的錢完全不一樣那未來該怎麼辦嘛"},{"start":3590.172,"end":3604.913,"text":"這個部分我們還是會強調因為包委員說實在大部分的我們這個計畫裡面的所有的運科資源參與的老師都知道其實真的不能拿去做發表它也不是研究所以真的是陳仲慶本身個人的一個違規行為"},{"start":3606.204,"end":3627.441,"text":"所以未来的部分我们现在因为我们现在最大包括我们这个部分都是事情发生完之后我们再回去如果追溯我们显然没有一个特别的一个机制可以来做这样的一个预防其实我们现在请国家运科中心这边来研理一个我们的运科检测的一个流程以及计划审查流程我们会来请一跟卫福部一起来讨论"},{"start":3629.683,"end":3642.265,"text":"對 所以你要全面清查陳宗慶老師 周太宜老師所申請的所有這個計畫的補助的公編然後呢 最重要我在乎的就是有沒有取得受試者的同意書而且經過他們的簽署而不是被脅迫我覺得這個部分才是才是很大的一個重點啊所以我真的覺得體育署應該演繹怎麼樣強制送審這個IRB你們目前為止還是不是一個必要的條件但是未來不要告訴我只是一個趨勢這都是一樣因為畢竟用到你們的錢"},{"start":3657.389,"end":3666.742,"text":"這還是非常重要的這件事情引發出太多太多執行層面的問題最後問一個那個體育部你剛好在這個地方你有被徵詢運動部的部長的這個部分嗎沒有"},{"start":3670.902,"end":3690.281,"text":"目前没有是吧?没有。目前没有。好,那目前筹备状况如何?给我一分钟就好。目前筹备状况如何?报告委员,目前我们将在原体育大楼设置运动部门,部分的部门像在全民署以及产业科技师以及资讯处会到,我们就将离站附近的贯通。"},{"start":3690.421,"end":3697.608,"text":"沒有啦我只是說你現在人力是從130個我們現在人是有總共427個對但是據說你們現在招聘並不如預期喔從130變成429而且你分兩年合計而且目前來說你們的規模已經提升到210"},{"start":3706.516,"end":3733.363,"text":"但是呢据说你们的招聘目前为止不如这个预期这个人力的承揽各方面的部分我还是强调而且最重要变成一个运动部里面有非常多非常多像是我们以前更特别提到的这个执行的层面像运动产业条例非常多的职棒的运动员也非常希望在提升为运动部完之后能够对于他们所关切的包括企业联下包括这个台皮篮球队没有替有过半没有替选手来劳保这个问题"},{"start":3733.703,"end":3747.211,"text":"我希望在成立这样的部会当中呢你可以继续执行而且确实的执行这才是这个成立运动部最大的一个目标嘛对不对谢谢委员提醒OK好谢谢好谢谢柯志恩委员咨询官员请回座"},{"start":3761.511,"end":3763.873,"text":"現在請葛如軍委員進行詢答好 謝謝代理主席 有請教育部鄭英耀部長請部長"},{"start":3789.195,"end":3811.146,"text":"委員好部長早上週我們在議程安排的時候就有風聲聽到說今天可能是部長的重要考試萬一考不過有沒有可能就被左內閣放進二一名單想請教一下部長這個說法是不是屬實我們有沒有機會繼續再看到您想不想再繼續來跟我們一起協作"},{"start":3812.346,"end":3837.196,"text":"謝謝委員關心我的去留不過我想這個假設性的問題基本上我其實不方便回答但是就政務官來講我個人認為政務官的進退要優雅要雍容這是我一直一路走來的堅持那說不定委員我也不曉得委員會不會想希望我留下來"},{"start":3839.551,"end":3862.35,"text":"我想這個如果不只是優雅從容啊還要能夠努力的捍衛學生權益的話當然是希望您留下來這個是無庸置疑也不要只是把時間花在政治的議題啊也不要把時間花在只是在勾選哪一間學校要停止交流如果是這樣的話我們當然希望您留下來但是我想不管你是不是留下來"},{"start":3863.23,"end":3879.888,"text":"優雅從容之餘也應該努力到最後一天來捍衛學生的權益也要檢討我們在過去有沒有哪些事情還需要能夠來加強的那我們首先要來請教一下部長這個無限期休假的事件除了您本身的去留其實近期教育界有另外一個議論紛紛的事"},{"start":3881.269,"end":3907.221,"text":"其实就是我们的叶秉成次长迄今请假天数已经达到72天社群平台还有网友在计算做了一个计时器就是他请假的天数原本我们教育部有三位次长分工非常的明确但是我们稍微计算了一下其实在叶次长请假的期间当中有32天教育部居然只剩下一位次长"},{"start":3907.921,"end":3912.128,"text":"在處理所有的公務啊也就是您在這個圖上面看到的這個公務啊在葉市長請假朱市長還沒到位之前有32天的時間只有一位市長處理所有的事部長您知道嗎"},{"start":3924.039,"end":3938.699,"text":"我當然知道那所以請問部長嘛您認為長期32天算很長啦少一個次長的情況下有沒有影響到會不會影響到相關政策的推行我想我非常感謝我們教育部的一個團隊"},{"start":3940.021,"end":3962.578,"text":"當然在人事異動還有許多接任的時間它當然有一些時間差那這一個期間我們會不會影響?有沒有影響?我想我們基本上都希望它在所有的政務跟政策的推動它都能夠順暢的在推動中所以過去的這32天對於事務上有沒有影響?"},{"start":3964.211,"end":3982.139,"text":"會不會影響一位次長我真的還是要肯定啦張耀次長這一個人扛起來三十二天那當然葉次長請假有他的原因跟理由三十二天有沒有去影響到政策的推行會不會影響基本上我們保持讓他對可能的影響降到最低"},{"start":3983.05,"end":4001.061,"text":"我想這個部長真的是如果您希望次長趕快消價上班您就要明確的表達那如果您覺得說影響可以降到最低那我們是不是一位次長一位長賜就好啦可以減少納稅人的錢不用必要的支出"},{"start":4001.801,"end":4030.249,"text":"否則我想這樣子的一個分工的狀態現在兩位次長我又要替朱次長來抱不平了那甚至萬一這個之後我們的運動部成立了我們次長說不定這個有一些人事的異動調整會不會又出現了一位次長扛下所有的任務我想這個接下來的這些狀況想請教一下次長未來有可能面臨的這個情況你有沒有預先規劃之前可能是意外之後有沒有預先規劃"},{"start":4031.65,"end":4052.764,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在在業次長被這個指控這個洩漏違反了這個姓平的這個個資那姓平的調查小組專案調查小組我們當然希望他趕快把結果調查出來但是因為姓平小組他認為必須要還有很多的求證"},{"start":4053.584,"end":4079.764,"text":"是 部長我打斷您因為我們已經算過了啦他請假第一輪可以是這個不是請假就是這個事件的調查可以兩個月再加一加一啦所以可能四個月之後如果有申訴假設有申訴的話又再二加一加一啦所以一共可能有八個月啊那我們招藥次長萬一真的高升去當部長了那接下來我們很可能會有人事的異動我是要問您有沒有對這個未來的可能性做準備嘛"},{"start":4080.484,"end":4093.902,"text":"我們當然會對人事可能的一個異動我們當然會有一些內部的一些討論好 所以我想不要讓這個單一的次長的工作太繁重可能也會讓底下的部署感到困擾那我們想接下來還是要來請教一個比較專業的議題"},{"start":4096.866,"end":4111.617,"text":"就是這個AI課程的聯盟TICA那113年第二學期的參與學校從25所增加到55所對此本席要予以肯定但是近來我們有掌握到一些資訊就是說現在開放5300個名額實際修課的人合計2465人修課但是能夠修完課程並取得學分的人各課程介於190人到368人之間事實上只有4到6成"},{"start":4125.687,"end":4129.411,"text":"請問部長教育部有沒有好好去了解學生沒有完成課程的原因"},{"start":4130.489,"end":4159.118,"text":"我想這個首先就這個來講我要非常感謝我們葉次長當時在AI內閣裡面他快速的整合清大台大成大為主的這些大學的這個AI的教授很快速的透過網路上的我想謝謝部長這個我們都知道我是要問您啊現在已經有問題發生了我也很感謝葉次長在這個計畫上嘛跟委員報告的人不能讓我多說一點"},{"start":4160.299,"end":4163.523,"text":"說一些新聞上沒有講過您沒有講過的我說新聞上沒講過的簡單來講我們當時這一個五門課快速的在去年九月開了五門課有將近兩千五百人休課那當然第一"},{"start":4176.101,"end":4200.336,"text":"第一學期的時候許多的課在網路上包括學生的休課等等的確實有一些學生並沒有通過通過率才只有1322位大概就56到57%不好意思部長我真的要打斷您您在浪費我的時間啊我現在要講的是第二學期的事你現在還在跟我回顧第一學期第二學期的"},{"start":4201.056,"end":4228.465,"text":"所謂的既有的25所學校裡面高達48%將近一半選客人數呈現衰退你們到底有沒有掌握甚至我要繼續講我甚至要講台師大為例六門課程裡面有五門的修課人數是零然後最後通過的人全部是掛蛋的兩間學校全部是零人你現在在跟我講什麼第一學期沒有"},{"start":4229.245,"end":4236.569,"text":"我要問的是學生為什麼越來越選越少我們在進步中第二學期開始我們就收了有4000幾乎快double的學生休克4400位然後通過有3300位現在我數字都整理給你了"},{"start":4249.176,"end":4260.98,"text":"就開始在下降 有沒有去了解原因是不是太難 還是什麼原因為什麼有這麼多既有的學校都是下降的"},{"start":4264.861,"end":4271.226,"text":"但是也有可能的原因像台師大的AI的老師他們也慢慢在豐富所以他們可能就自己開課我們本來這個網路上希望能夠用整合這個大學好的一個資源能夠去彌補許多學校可能沒有AI的專任老師那如果學校已經有的他當然學生就近實體的上課方便所以部長我想我很肯定葉次長當時提出這個計畫"},{"start":4293.945,"end":4321.59,"text":"那現在持續的擴增他現在請假我們也先理解他但是呢現在這個計畫又面臨到新的挑戰休克人數在下降既有的25所學校裡面還有人掛蛋的台師大是零人完課您知道嗎那您的理由是說台師大已經有自己的AI課程了那我們要抬卡做什麼呢是不是開始造成學校額外的重複行政的困擾他是不是有補助有沒有補助補助完了零人休克這樣可以嗎"},{"start":4324.795,"end":4337.621,"text":"我們就希望台城新郊的能量老師的能量能夠與陸心簪全國的所有的大學生研究生他們能夠也能夠受惠新學期8月1號展開啦那也希望部長齁趕快不管您是優雅從容還是怎麼樣努力到最後我們還是希望"},{"start":4345.205,"end":4362.982,"text":"抬卡的课程要持续优化好不好那接下来啦我想我们还是要来关注一下令人震惊跟心痛的这个台师大女卒抽血案的事件那来请教部长和国客会的苏副主委和卫福部的刘师长请代理主席让苏副主委跟刘师长就备巡台"},{"start":4364.495,"end":4390.753,"text":"請相關部會首長那我借用一點時間那首先呢剛剛柯志恩委員在質詢的時候有提到抽查的狀況結果我們教育部其實並沒有仔細的講啊我們這裡取得的這個教育部的IRB的這個所謂的查核的狀況我們這個案子啊其實是3到7年的時間111年就有抽查到國立台灣師範大學"},{"start":4393.135,"end":4403.005,"text":"當時抽查的狀況怎麼樣如果當時有用心抽查我們很有可能提前發現這個案件的問題請教一下110年抽查的情況如何"},{"start":4404.386,"end":4432.106,"text":"為什麼會讓這個案子還留在還留下來報告委員我們抽查的項目主要是針對他們整體的學校的IRB的運作機制跟相關的一些那個執行的狀況那針對個案的異常的狀況有些時候真的必須要到就是說抽查才會來我幫您整理啦就是有抽查但這個案子沒有抽查到啦那我想這還是要檢討一下那變成這個抽查變成圖據形式嘛"},{"start":4432.546,"end":4452.814,"text":"那而且這個抽查學校變成不定期查核學校那接下來有沒有這個查核的頻率、頻次、內容、深度是不是要做調整我想這個可能要檢討那另外請教一下兩位教育部與國科會對於這個案件知曉的時間點請教一下副主委跟部長知曉的時間點是什麼這個案子這個案子我們是去年1113年11月28"},{"start":4460.385,"end":4477.631,"text":"我想部長這邊我想11月28號陳培於委員揭發此事報導得知那我念一下這個媒體學生的這個刊出的這個說法我想這個細節我真的看了非常難過我就不多念了"},{"start":4478.391,"end":4485.46,"text":"但我想在這樣的一個文字內容下我們完全都可以理解他還有這個抽血暈眩的狀況我自己抽血也是會暈眩我非常理解這個非常恐怖也非常可怕那個無助的一個狀態而且甚至是可能會產生危險"},{"start":4496.835,"end":4513.256,"text":"請問在這種情況下所謂的研究受試者同時也是私生關係的學生他能夠向誰來求助他到底能用什麼樣的救濟管道來救濟我想請教部長啊他這個受到這樣的一個困難他想要尋求救濟他可以找誰"},{"start":4514.497,"end":4523.52,"text":"我想這個完全是在這個抽血的過程裡邊我們的醫護人員的一個訓練必須要再加強部長 我講的是結構性的醫護人員可能是外部請來的我可以直接告訴您答案啦我們詢問學生要找什麼救濟管道教育部給我們的答覆是說這個學生可以聯繫研究計畫的主持人"},{"start":4541.206,"end":4566.1,"text":"你覺得這樣可以解決問題嗎我想就學生可以當下就這個表達堅定的立場他是不是改天再抽或者等他舒服的等於說演一段時間再抽在當天來講因為以他當時在抽的時候他事實上人是非常不舒服的這個情況下我想他是可以在整個研究計畫裡邊部長我想您可能還是沒有了解到整件事情的嚴重性"},{"start":4567.22,"end":4580.468,"text":"這些學生到底是不是真的知情同意是不是有可能在校園裡面權利關係不對等的情況之下不是說我今天不想抽可不可以明天抽就沒事了"},{"start":4581.874,"end":4603.488,"text":"他有可能一直都不想抽啊所以我想要問的我想要講的就是計畫主持人絕對可能不是一個合適的救助管道所以本席認為啊此案之所以今年累月的累積到最後要求助我們的立法委員來處理就是沒有一個隱密的獨立的通暢的救濟管道"},{"start":4604.048,"end":4625.169,"text":"沒有一個單一的申訴窗口所以本席在這裡要具體要求教育部必須要針對主管的IRB審查的人體研究計畫設立永久的單一申訴窗口同時啊這個申訴窗口必須登載在教育部的網站也必須載明在知情同意書上請問部長能不能當場承諾這件事"},{"start":4627.071,"end":4644.834,"text":"我想這一個我們當然教育部責務龐大但是我更希望學校也能夠建立一個內機內控包括學生在反應的一個單一窗口因為譬如說類似研發處他就可以做譬如說這個學生本來他就可以決定他退出研究的一個地方"},{"start":4646.135,"end":4663.343,"text":"是研究計畫主持人他是利益關係人學校本身是不是利益關係人有沒有可能學校整個就校長來講所以我想教育部作為最高主導機關教育部沒有問題我們一定會感謝委員的建議我們會來設好很好那就當場允諾學校也應該要建立大家一起努力我們都同意教育部"},{"start":4670.126,"end":4675.727,"text":"我們希望把這個更健全的一個體制建立謝謝部長我們今天時間有限還有幾個點我還是希望來提出首先我們在做相關的審查的時候我們在審查這個內容IRB的內容的時候我們的這個IRB的審查"},{"start":4694.847,"end":4714.98,"text":"我們有發現其實檢疫型的審查是主要的那我們去檢查以後發現IRB的組成人的這個樣態五花八門這個IRB的組成成員有法師有里長有常見的行政人員那如果普通的檢疫案件直接就通過了"},{"start":4715.7,"end":4733.98,"text":"那還好但是如果是有比較高風險的人體研究計畫他很可能會送到醫院這裡來進行但是也有可能不會所以我想請教也希望呼籲教育部長和衛福部的司長在這裡本席希望具體要求能不能共同研議"},{"start":4734.841,"end":4748.621,"text":"未來採用一般程序審查的人體試驗研究計畫應該要由學校的IRB和醫療院所的IRB來共同審查剛剛有提到抽血次數的問題也可能是因為兩個分案"},{"start":4750.604,"end":4761.911,"text":"送到不同的地方審查學校這裡覺得這裡只抽一次醫院這裡也覺得這裡只抽一次可是事實上在同一批人一天可能就變成抽兩次他如果沒有共同審查的話很可能會重放了其實應該要嚴格審查的專案這個部分能不能就此進行研議三個月內因為有跨部會啦"},{"start":4772.458,"end":4791.776,"text":"以書面答覆本席謝謝委員提醒事實上我們教育部國科會跟衛務部也已經就這一個部分在做內部的這些溝通我們也希望能夠建立一個更精進的一個這樣一個審查的一個機制確保能夠維護這一個學生或者所有的受試者的一個權益我想這一次的事件"},{"start":4792.833,"end":4803.327,"text":"其實是我們每一個人都要一起來努力去捍衛學生的權益當然我們也理解整個事件還有一些部分在進行調查當中但是我想我們的人權我們的學生的學習的權益真的非常重要"},{"start":4807.793,"end":4807.993,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝市長謝謝部長 請回座"},{"start":4853.43,"end":4855.55,"text":"接下來有請劉書斌委員進行質詢有請教育部政部長請政部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長好"},{"start":4878.567,"end":4887.333,"text":"在葉秉成次長的這件事情上面他因為在五月中有請假請問一下在這個調查委員會教育部總共開了幾次到現在調查委員會就是開會開了幾次跟委員報告因為這一個我們這一個當這一個選投訴的時候我們在五月二十三二十三號的時候就教育部的一個姓平委員會就成立然後就召開確認"},{"start":4907.146,"end":4927.12,"text":"講次數我現在重點是在次數就這個案子5月235月23因為業次長他是在4月的時候嘛那5月23就成立了這個而且有開會嗎有開會開會第一次開會然後專案小組在5月26號就正式成立所以業次長也因為專案小組成立因為"},{"start":4928.121,"end":4937.009,"text":"確立要調查成立的專案小組然後這委員會很快的委請了這些這個領域的這個學術專家那最近的那一次結果是什麼這一個對不起因為整個還是在專案小組的一個調查裡邊我想我們尊重調查小組的一個會議在還調查期間我事實上我也在討論有關業比 業資長應該你知道應該知道幾次會議對吧"},{"start":4955.229,"end":4976.682,"text":"幾次會議對不起我沒有辦法回答委員也許我事後可以幾次會議當然是可以因為報紙上都有講出來在7月28號的時候其實都已經有召開一次會議了那是另外那是初步的一個大會的一個會議但是大會會議對專案小組的一個調查仍有一些這個希望在年輕了所以才會再延長那我要跟委員報告"},{"start":4979.584,"end":4991.298,"text":"因為涉及到我們業次長的這個職務跟身分的關係教育部包含我所有的教育部的代表我們全部都是迴避的所以我們基本上我們是不曉得這個整個後來的一個事實"},{"start":4994.381,"end":5017.909,"text":"記得因為是你們還是主責的部分啦當然說這該開幾次會議應該要了解如果到目前我聽的資料除了8月23號到7月28號之後看起來就只有兩次期中期初跟這個7月28號就只有開兩次會那目前說到8月20號我們現在要講的是這件事情的跟跟我們的教師的這個士氣是會有相關的因為如果在"},{"start":5019.284,"end":5020.765,"text":"我要跟委員報告 外面有許多的猜測 這都是不真實的"},{"start":5045.117,"end":5062.528,"text":"因為就我個人來講我希望有關陳儒剛才主席也特別關注到我們總是希望這個事情到底是怎麼樣越早結束越好但是專案小組在整個查證的過程裡面因為涉及到當事人我們希望配合當事人還有許多相關利害關係人"},{"start":5063.268,"end":5068.432,"text":"所以在第一個月我原來希望一個月就結束但是後來專案小組在整個查證的資料過程裡面他們認為必須要到兩個月那兩個月以後大會又決定對調查小組的"},{"start":5086.404,"end":5094.912,"text":"我想這我們一定會遵照法令上來做的這也是直評論這也是我的痛我必須要講我希望他趕快延遲我的時間麻煩讓委員講完我們現在回到的是今天的一個主持因為我本身是一個大學教師所以也特別正視到對教師這部分的內容我們看一下"},{"start":5110.891,"end":5134.525,"text":"在你們的報告當中已經呈現出來說111年到114年的當中呢國高中的這個老師的缺額已經有改善了但是我想要問的是說在113年剛剛過去的這個113年一般的國中小學的師生比是多少2.0一般的是兩個1.65"},{"start":5139.229,"end":5162.435,"text":"然後這一個一般的國中是2.2但是偏鄉在六萬以下我們是給三個元好那我請問一下齁那在這個情況之下那台北市的我說的師生比齁就在於說那一個學一個老師到底照顧多少的學生尤其在台北市像另外再找一個一個高雄市來講的話有沒有這下的數據有嗎"},{"start":5164.994,"end":5180.824,"text":"因為從教師團體所得到的訊息台北市的部分是缺額事實上是他的學生或是新北市的人數是非常多的是跟委員報告按照原來編制的標準一個班大概不能超過29人小學國中是30人就台北實際的狀況每一個班會不一樣有些班級可能18人有些可能到滿29人那這個數字我們後續會給您大概先下班前我們把台北市問一下"},{"start":5191.95,"end":5204.294,"text":"那委員剛才講的那個台北市個別的因素我們也有注意到我們也會一起來處理 謝謝好 謝謝那另外我們看到今年已經現在已經到114學年度了嘛那我們看到的是從你們報告當中得知到國小的是8.85那國中是6.25 高中是6%那你們是標準是說達到8%是大概是合理的情況那像這樣的情況之下目前連開學還不到一個月請問這個缺額怎麼樣處理法"},{"start":5217.472,"end":5233.286,"text":"跟委員報告這不是這個代理代課這個控制在8%以下它這是今年的中小學教師的增試那不足額大概有8.8%比如說以國中的6.25%大概就是有125個人因為它總共這一個"},{"start":5242.31,"end":5257.402,"text":"部主委我跟您報告一下在我們的報告第二頁有寫到像小學為例他要考3108人那麼他考了大概2833人所以他有815人大概有8.85入取率不足"},{"start":5260.909,"end":5288.908,"text":"這是開學出來的比例所以他這個不是代理律不是代理老師現在委員這個都是正式老師好 是正式老師那事實上還是有缺有吧因為我們現在都在看下面這張可以知道以今年在6月17號所看到的台北市的 不過你教育部剛剛部長有說這部分他們有特別的一些因素存在的不過因為一般的這個代理教師這部分他還是有相當一個比例尤其是在偏遠學校嘛 對吧"},{"start":5290.209,"end":5295.832,"text":"是那偏遠的學校現在的代理教師的這個比例是多少跟委員報告台北"},{"start":5297.062,"end":5319.028,"text":"教師這一個叫做脫北的這一個名詞我現在問的是 我知道你剛才有說特殊的藝術我知道但是這部分不要因為早期台北市因為當然他的生活機能部長請你尊重我剛才講的這個事情我知道因為我看到報紙有說有但是我想說特別針對偏遠教師的目前的代理教師的比例是多少"},{"start":5319.929,"end":5337.5,"text":"台北市基本上是沒有偏遠地區的我不是說台北市 我說全國的如果講代理率的話台灣的偏鄉地區代理率大概達到25%A班地區大概15%代理率對 所以這個地方的話那現在馬上要開選 那怎麼個處理法"},{"start":5341.229,"end":5357.375,"text":"有一些具體的這個技術面的事情跟您報告一下第一點我們會周周控管來協助地方政府第二點正式老師那個缺額在前面七月底以前他們考過之後會放到代理這邊所以我們現在從現在開始在考代理老師我們會周周來協助22縣市"},{"start":5359.198,"end":5367.622,"text":"好希望我們的尤其是偏向學校的老師他們在現場能夠真的是幫助到我們的學生不然的話這是已經要開學沒辦法處理的那我們繼續往下看包括你們的報告當中也呈現到說之前還沒看到你們報告之前我們知道在儲備教師這部分有的是目前有逾7萬人不過因為你們後來已經昨天報告當中最新呈現出來說如果以活躍的這個儲備教師來看的話呢是有2萬7千人"},{"start":5388.291,"end":5405.183,"text":"那應徵率五年內是八成報考是八成就在去做這個徵試的部分三年內報考是七成五可是為什麼你越來越近的時間內反而是他的去報考徵試的部分是人數少的而且我們再看看旁邊的這邊大家也看到遠見雜誌的這個內容當中就算是擔任正式教師之後呢他"},{"start":5409.446,"end":5417.431,"text":"他的這個比例從69.1下滑到57.5呢他繼續要留學下來這部分他甚至不願意要進入到教室這些部分而且呢這些部分呢就會造成的是因為老師出去之後後來導致代理教室就越來越進去到裡面去那請問部長是說您知道說為什麼放棄這個教室正式教室他會放棄這樣的一個教室嗎"},{"start":5435.385,"end":5459.352,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們這些年來在世代交替退休的人數是多的那再加上少子化所以各縣市基本上有比較多的控留的比例來聘待老師可是我也跟委員報告我們這三年來為什麼會各縣市開始把這一個正式的確有出來是因為我們一一年政策做了一些"},{"start":5460.832,"end":5476.002,"text":"要求在配合一般補助一般地方的補助款裡面我們把各地方的教師的這一個專任營養的控管比例納入我們講補助的一個指標所以各縣市就開始把"},{"start":5477.122,"end":5498.069,"text":"這個部分我都知道 但是我先跟秀一下這個資料齁這個昨天在偏遠教師的這邊呈現出來有民間團體呈現出來 大家看一下這個資料齁全職的外送員他的薪資在平常狀況之下的時候是大概4萬到8萬高的話還可以到8萬到這個地方正式的教師如果新進的部分啦他事實上是3萬2到3萬5那國小的這個部分的新進教師呢是到達大概碩士的大概4萬如果你就這個地方來看的話"},{"start":5506.232,"end":5519.044,"text":"教師他如果獲得到一個不是很好的待遇的情況之下包括沒有尊重的話這就是一個原因這部分那第二個我們再看一下的時候是有一個地方的教師團體跟我們的反應的時候是呈現出來是目前在高級中等以下學校教師的解併跟不續併跟停併跟知情辦法當中很清楚的呈現到說如果是因為在校園裡面有"},{"start":5531.015,"end":5536.659,"text":"有出現到說有疑似到被害對這個學生部分有對這個學習權、受教育權或身體自主權等等的這個人格氾濫權有影響的時候呢就進入到校事會議而校事會議重要之下在包括連媒體報導的部分都呈現出來就是他就進到調查的這個而且調查的內容的過程非常繁瑣這個情況之下請問校長 請問部長齁"},{"start":5554.412,"end":5574.801,"text":"一個教育的團體教育的這個機構裡面用的是直接進入到所謂的用調查的方式而不是回歸到教育的本質因為部長你之前也是大學的校長教授等等的這部分的話你面對這種情況之下尤其這是一個辦法是在屬於行政命令的部分對這個部分有這樣的意見呈現而且是很多教師團體全教總都出現這個意見的你們有什麼看法"},{"start":5580.37,"end":5604.467,"text":"各位報告校士法大概校士的規定是在教師法下的一個授權那從去年開始實施確實在這一年裡邊我們也發現了不少的問題那當然我們國教署也在收集這些問題簡單來講我們目前的學校學生或者老師師生的一些行為上的一個這個糾正或者這個懲處他本來是學校有"},{"start":5609.008,"end":5633.557,"text":"教評會過去都是在教評會現在多了一個校事會校事會那校事會裡面就會涉及到這一個解聘這一個停聘不續聘等等的這些很複雜的問題就是說我們包含學生的一些衝突等等的一個處理所以我們現在就在想因為進入到校事會議目前都是法令規範都是校外的學者專家或者領域專家來針對學校的事件來做這一個調查"},{"start":5638.419,"end":5659.699,"text":"那學校裡面會造成一些困擾就是說因為他們可能有專業但是對學校的現況並不是那麼清楚了解所以我們現在在研議收集全國的一個資料希望是不是能夠至少教師的代表家長的代表他了解這個學校實際的運作然後再加上"},{"start":5660.419,"end":5684.63,"text":"這個一半以上的這些校外委員 學者專家 領域專家來共同來比較有一個好的一個討論能夠希望不要造成這個被冤枉但是如果真的不良老師 我們當然希望他退場但是也不希望因為這樣造成校長的所以我想簡單一句是說你們事實上在定期在做檢討事實上準備在做了那大概是多久時間呢"},{"start":5685.911,"end":5713.601,"text":"大概是不是有大概在今年的大概十月左右年底之前我想我們會有一個訂定出來年底之前是好 謝謝好 那這個部分我剛才也提到說這個是不是沒有那兩個東西其實最重要的這個辛酸當你教師沒辦法去得到一個認同原來是一個置業的事情而不是一個職業卻當中這個效果其實是很遺憾的然後另外的部分我們再去往下看簡單的部分我還是必須要提供一個議題這在於說"},{"start":5719.953,"end":5738.091,"text":"這個部分在於因為在前幾個禮拜之前出現到一個問題是在於說你們的一個師特別針對在偏鄉的就是在自然教師這部分的時候尤其在STEM的這個情況那他提出來的部分就是說對於這個專業教師呢"},{"start":5740.353,"end":5745.234,"text":"因為這個少那這邊部分引進到所謂高中教師的有這個相關的辦法所以說針對這些老師在自然科學的部分讓用免休職前學分跟免考試跟免實習的狀況的這個條件來讓大家支援可是這個支援的部分是在國小的部分那這邊部分國教署這邊有沒有什麼回應因為大家要知道"},{"start":5766.018,"end":5792.138,"text":"這個如果是有專技的這些部分的他是在高中沒有問題可是你們卻是用這個高中的這個辦法來去引用到國小的這樣的師資的自然科學的部分其實教也是對於學對教師是非常大的一個一個一個一個貶義啊因為老師他必須修了很多的這個學分包括是怎麼樣去對待學生怎麼樣心理的輔導等等的沒有如果沒有這些部分的話那直接到國小的時候他可能會造成這一種隔閡那請問部長您的看法"},{"start":5795.999,"end":5811.639,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員讓我有補充說明的機會事實上我們的想法是因為現在高職類科特別在高職類科有許多的理工的這些專業的科目學科的專業的科目找不到老師"},{"start":5812.6,"end":5834.852,"text":"那我們就希望說有許多大學退場的或者大學的一些科技大學的老師他退學校可能退場但是他非常優秀他能夠轉任到高職或者產業都在R&D裡邊或者他在對產業他都是有master degree以上的他們有願意轉任因為以我們現在來講業師"},{"start":5837.173,"end":5842.477,"text":"他本來就沒有任何專業的但是我們這裡邊還有六年的這個工作的機會有一些條件的限制他能夠真正的專業能夠滿足又能夠有產業豐富的經驗能夠協助我們高職我想訊息上有一些報導上有一些落差他涉及的包括還有小學的部分如果只是在高職這部分我們優先要考量是高中職的老師"},{"start":5867.253,"end":5879.186,"text":"在STEM的這個領域裡邊的老師的這個來源我們目前是鎖定在高中的我們現在做一個澄清 謝謝那這一部分配合在我們的有一些選服的部分我就簡單的詢問一下在這部分對於在私校的這個學雜費的部分那這部分因為它有大概"},{"start":5889.737,"end":5898.765,"text":"十幾年這個都沒有漲價了那你們對這部分有沒有在思效的部分因為思效的還是有多的是自己的一個學費所收入那你們這部分有沒有什麼看法放寬他的一個"},{"start":5903.023,"end":5928.229,"text":"主席大概就一分鐘多就結束了謝謝報告委員我們現在針對學雜費其實有一定的機制針對114年到116年其實有編列特別預算要來協助學校他來申請特別預算的部分相關的學校就要承諾在114學年度到116學年度不要去調漲學雜費不調漲學雜費但是我們會用特別預算來挹注學校的校務經營"},{"start":5929.662,"end":5941.099,"text":"所以還是有可能的 是不是就是說在用救愛部對學校的一種補助款的方式去抑制他們的經營是好 張主他中的部分的學費是我們來協助但是雜費是由各主管機關來訂定"},{"start":5942.966,"end":5945.889,"text":"謝謝市長的部分現在做了一個說明謝謝教育部的相關主席謝謝主席給我這麼多時間 謝謝"},{"start":5961.006,"end":5988.464,"text":"謝謝劉書斌委員部長官員請回座我想在這邊可能要跟官員部長還有出席的官員溝通待會麻煩可不可以協助我們三件事第一尊重麻煩尊重我們的每一位立委不分黨派第二請聽麻煩各位是教育的單位請聽是很重要的拜託完整的理解我們每一位委員所提出的問題第三"},{"start":5990.485,"end":6011.047,"text":"反請直接回應委員的問題如果你有完整傾聽我相信可以直接回應到問題那也可以讓我們的委員更明確的了解您對這個問題的回覆好嗎那也讓社會大眾可以更清楚的理解到我們現在社會需要改進大家一起努力的地方謝謝那我們接下來有請萬美玲委員質詢"},{"start":6018.404,"end":6020.606,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 我們有請部長請部長備質詢 謝謝好 部長我首先想先問你一句話因為剛才我看到你在答詢的時候特別提到那個葉秉成次長所涉的事件的時候我看你整個情緒變得非常的激動那甚至好像還要一度哽咽你說這也是我心中的痛是什麼樣的痛 可以陳述一下嗎"},{"start":6050.373,"end":6060.805,"text":"我想這個案子在調查過程因為他確實我們他依法尊重這個調查那當然各方的權益怎麼去維護從我一個學教育的一個這一個"},{"start":6064.5,"end":6079.441,"text":"背景出生我當然非常在意學生的一個受教權學生的權益應該被維護當然也期待也期待大學端一定要對學生的所有的權益上的一個受損能夠能夠可以"},{"start":6082.055,"end":6104.771,"text":"協助能夠給予支持或者給予看怎麼樣從行政裡面去做改善但是我也必須要講我們是一個民主法治的國家我們很多時候我們是依照法令法治來行使來做許多的行政的一些這個改善或者處理或者調查但是我也看到"},{"start":6105.808,"end":6133.749,"text":"社會大眾對這個案子事實上當然他們有殷切的期待部長重點是簡短我重點的講法就是說因為我們太多不了解整個事件的一個過程然後造成了很多社會的不必要的一些一些緊張或者一些能量或者一些資源的投入我覺得這一個部分我其實是讓我造成一個非常難過的一件事情謝謝"},{"start":6134.73,"end":6149.155,"text":"部長雖然我聽完以後還是沒有辦法充分感受到你到底難過跟心痛那個點不過聽起來好像是你覺得外界對這整件事情有一些誤解聽起來好像你心裡有一個定見但是不論如何我們尊重調查但是本席在這裡針對這個案子要講的是我認為"},{"start":6151.896,"end":6173.476,"text":"調查當然要仔細、要詳實但是速度也不可以拖我覺得這個拖久了對我們的社會、對我們的教育其實都是一個很大的傷害這邊提一下回到今天我正式的質詢的議題我們今天提到教師荒跟代理教師荒其實這兩個都存在那本席其實在四月份的時候我就已經針對了我們現在國內面臨教師荒的問題有跟部長提出了質詢"},{"start":6177.74,"end":6180.402,"text":"那但是幾個月過去了我們看到了這個問題不但沒有解決看起來還更加嚴重連本席選區內的某一個國中公告了三輪要甄選不管國文數學地理等等相關的科目這個叫做沒有人來報名無人報名"},{"start":6194.713,"end":6202.215,"text":"學校真的是非常的焦慮但是好像也沒辦法解決這個問題我相信部長應該知道這個狀況因為新聞也爆得沸沸揚揚那我們來看幾個數字因為剛才部長在做報告的時候你有提到說現在我們的教師其實還算是穩定投入教職的一個趨勢但這個趨勢看起來還沒有辦法解決教育上面的難處所以根據我們教育部自己的統計"},{"start":6220.6,"end":6223.724,"text":"我們從83年到112年 總共是有22萬6194人 領有教師的資格證但是我們實際任教率多少 只有66.99%那大概有三分之一超過7萬人 並沒有正式進入教職"},{"start":6238.422,"end":6263.997,"text":"那所以我們就一直在講過去說失陪失陪失陪我們要花很多的資源精神力氣來去做教師的培育跟培養但是呢培而無法用這件事情我想這是非常嚴重的一種浪費所以我們一直要來討論那到底為什麼教師慌為什麼現在連代理教師都招不到那本席知道啦當然部長也有提到我們共同知道的這個因素"},{"start":6264.437,"end":6271.922,"text":"包括少子化啦 包括各縣市的資源啦 經費啦 等等啦還有教育現場的尊重啦 困擾啦這些問題喔 部長你都知道嗎你只要回答我 你都知道嗎都知道嗎 而且你知道一定很長一段時間了嘛包括站在你身後的署長 他更知道嘛那你想想看喔 這些問題我們都知道"},{"start":6286.653,"end":6308.722,"text":"但為什麼久久都不能解決我們應該要去看一下不能解決的原因在哪裡啊因為我們已經把問題都找出來了可是針對問題我們束手無策是發生什麼事了呢對不對好 您剛剛又說到說我們現在有針對各縣市啊如果釋出了正式圓圈我們納入獎補助啊等等的有 教育部有在做我們想辦法在做可是看起來還是沒有辦法解決嘛"},{"start":6309.722,"end":6326.767,"text":"那這個影響是影響什麼影響我們花這麼多的精力經費培養出來的教師這麼專業卻沒有辦法進入到教職我們影響的是代理代課教師因為各項的保障跟我們教學的環境不夠好他縱使他可以教成功他不願意留在這個地方最後影響的是什麼"},{"start":6327.227,"end":6343.379,"text":"影响就是孩子的受教权所以今天我们在这里提这样的问题重新再提出来包括刚刚我们所讲的各县市可能在预算上面有限经费不足或者是说教育现场的环境没有被改善所以教师黄"},{"start":6344.119,"end":6373.03,"text":"那教室換完以後呢我們要用代理教師可是代理教師呢即便過去這幾年當中啊其實本席一直在提說我們代理教師啊不管他的薪資要更合理化我們的聘期要整年度啊包括本席的這個桃園市我們也是其實縣市第一個第一個做到我們的這個全年制聘期的那現在當然我們全國都這樣做可是看起來還是不夠的所以呢部長你簡單的回答一下問題都知道了我們也想解決但是一直未果"},{"start":6373.59,"end":6396.586,"text":"這件事情怎麼處理我想跟委員報告感謝委員關心這個交易那真的是因為以我們今年所開的全國所開的區來看我們國中就是真的沒有招滿125個就佔6%也就是說100個裡面有6%部長不好意思我把您打斷一下就是數字上面我們"},{"start":6396.886,"end":6415.414,"text":"不要在這裡再討論了因為數字你有我也有少數的學校裡邊我想我們都跟地方縣市教育局處裡邊都有保持這個密切的一個溝通聯繫然後怎麼樣剛才署長也特別提到周周都會有跟這個地方政府能夠維持聯繫部長不好意思我想我繼續"},{"start":6416.935,"end":6433.123,"text":"我知道您等一下還要再繼續提出來就是說我們教育部做了很多但今天我們要面對的是說我們很關心我們也很協助教育部也很認真同仁大家都很努力但這個問題沒有辦法解決這是一個事實所以我想幾個點我今天只簡單的提幾個點因為這個問題很複雜第一個我覺得在校園裡面行政減量這件事情要做到"},{"start":6440.386,"end":6464.26,"text":"行政減量的工作第二個未來教師的待遇這個部分我們要看看怎麼樣去把它提升第三個部分呢就是在教育現場上面現在我們老師有的時候真的會很灰心有時候會很覺得不如規矩怎麼樣給他們尊重怎麼樣在他們跟親師溝通之間我們給予協助這三件事情我想會後兩周給我一個報告好不好"},{"start":6465.06,"end":6479.538,"text":"可以嗎謝謝委員我想這些都是非常好的建議也是我們在努力那我們就是這個兩周給我一個報告那接下來我想一樣是部長但是我也請一下我們台師大的校長好不好"},{"start":6483.604,"end":6488.065,"text":"是我們的吳校長不好意思要麻煩你先準備一下我們還是提到這一次其實我們剛剛很多委員都有提到我們這次台師大女足學生被集體抽血換學分進行研究的這個案子我想震驚各界"},{"start":6508.51,"end":6532.744,"text":"台11大女足這個案子其實嚴格算起來還沒有落幕我們其實又發生了這個台北海洋科技大學這個特教上面又有這個涉嫌把台積電的這個公讀名額作為控制特教生的一個工具那甚至於好像有這個要把這個公讀費回捐等等的事項其實我不禁在想到底我們大學的校園發生什麼事了"},{"start":6534.105,"end":6552.825,"text":"到底發生什麼事了那麼這一些些離譜的事件發生在大學校園內教育部可能不能用大學自治就認為說這個責任教育部都沒有那我相信部長在這件事情發生之後應該不會這樣想可是我們看到教育部除了在過去"},{"start":6553.646,"end":6571.134,"text":"一直尊重大學自治之外那很多事情發生以後事後的調查懲處啊可是呢我覺得藉由這個事件我們應該來思考看看教育部到底還可以扮演什麼更積極的角色以今天來說很多細節我不再談因為媒體報導過很多今天我們委員也講了很多了但是呢我們看到剛剛國科會也有提到嘛"},{"start":6575.856,"end":6581.56,"text":"不過會發生這件事情一知道以後他也很積極趕快下去查查出來以後發現確定違法而且事件嚴重教育部後來下去了解以後也發現這個事件也非常嚴重我們都說他嚴重可是 欸 怪了咧我們整個相關的計畫是有審查的機制的是有審核機制的但為何"},{"start":6597.009,"end":6621.19,"text":"审核的时候是一套样本执行的时候又是一套样本而我们只能审核计划的出席给予补助但是执行的过程之中我们没有一个监督的机制然后发生事情之后我觉得在这件事情的处理上面其实是有一点荒腔走板的部长我想你一样简单台师大这个事件你觉得严不严重"},{"start":6622.538,"end":6627.244,"text":"當然嚴重好 當然嚴重那我們來看到既然是當然嚴重那為何以這個台師大兩次我們兩次這個教評會的決議啊落差會這麼大這都在調查嘛那剛才那個也有委員在問"},{"start":6638.878,"end":6652.289,"text":"前前後後也調查了半年啊那何以啊我們在這個台師大霸凌防治委員會的建議是予以解聘兩年內不得聘任喔可是呢不到這個幾個月的時間兩個月的時間我們在教評會的決議跟第二次的教評會決議針對部長口中以及國科會調查的口中這麼嚴重的案件但是呢我們決議的懲處卻是天壤之別"},{"start":6663.118,"end":6690.635,"text":"这是一个非常严重的一个问题那不晓得这个我想这一题我询问一下台师大的校长吴校长好不好吴校长我想先请教您一下您身为台师大的校长我们台师大其实又是培育我们教育人才最高的殿堂发生了这样子全国震惊跟瞩目的案件一路以来半年的时间过去了您现在的心情是怎么样"},{"start":6692.27,"end":6701.049,"text":"我現在心情非常非常的沉重那也覺得我們對我們學生的照顧我們沒有照顧好"},{"start":6703.002,"end":6729.014,"text":"絕對對學生的照顧沒有照顧好那你對於這個就是我們學校在做這一些研究案的這個監督過程還有學生這樣的受害還有家長的感受跟整個教育上你還有沒有什麼話要說我想在這件事情一個很重要的一個基本根源是我們教練跟球員這個權力結構的不對等"},{"start":6732.055,"end":6754.955,"text":"以至於很多的事情我想球員沒有直接反映到學校來如果反映到學校來我想我們一定會好好的處理但是因為這個整個潛力結構的關係所以事後我們也檢討我們在這個溝通的管道一定要再加強我們在協會處也成立一個單一的管道"},{"start":6755.595,"end":6776.167,"text":"校長我對您這樣的心情上面我能理解但我對您的說法其實我不太能接受如果你只是把它列為是這個教練跟學員之間的權利不對等甚至有一點暗指說一直以來都是這樣或者是有一些漏息等等而把它訴諸在是說過程當中學生沒有來反應所以你要加強溝通我覺得太輕忽這個案子了"},{"start":6783.351,"end":6787.976,"text":"我們要知道這個案子從我們申請計畫開始起有層層把關的審核那學校難道沒有任何的監督的這個這個責任在裡面嗎一點都沒有嗎有有有當然有嘛所以你不是只是片面等待"},{"start":6798.849,"end":6818.398,"text":"學生來跟你說我剛才講說這個原因之一那原因之二我想我們老師們在做研究的研究倫理的素養研究倫理的教育這個我們一定要再加強那當然我們倫理審查機制也有很多的地方我想我們要再進一步的做改善"},{"start":6819.569,"end":6848.3,"text":"那一個很重要當然就是說我們在查核上我們要加更加的加強在這個研究好那校長我想也直接請教您這也是我剛剛請教部長的那部長當然等一下要補充回答也可以何以這麼嚴重的案子我們現在發現他的這個結果是這麼嚴重那我們在6月的這個教評會的決議跟7月份這個教評會的決議何以落差如此之大"},{"start":6850.261,"end":6873.246,"text":"因為我本身不是教評委員會的委員主席是我們副校長所以校長至今不了解為何落差這麼大因為裡面討論的情形我也不在裡面有不同的一些看法"},{"start":6875.486,"end":6898.566,"text":"我們在7月25日那個解聘四年不得聘任裡面他提到是說他們委員有在看了一些錄影帶聽了一些證據難道之前沒有看錄影帶嗎這是有新的證據嗎據本席了解沒有新的證據啊這個是他們在7月25號他們指出來的"},{"start":6903.471,"end":6909.178,"text":"您可以先休息一下部長 據你了解 為什麼兩次落差如此之大"},{"start":6911.618,"end":6939.087,"text":"我想我不排斥校內裡邊對周老師長期的一些貢獻當然但是民主法治的社會你既然身為一個教評會的委員你應該要就事論事就證據來給予這一個對老師的苛責我想台師大當時的霸凌委員會裡邊調查出兩年的解聘兩年不能從事教職"},{"start":6940.007,"end":6954.438,"text":"這一個我相信學生原來對這一個是接受的但是到校教評會裡邊似乎就輕輕放下給周老師的一些懲處看起來部長您講的這個是大家都知道的過程了啦"},{"start":6954.878,"end":6975.655,"text":"好 我来讲一下我想我们相关的计划包括我们国科会其实它是会去审查每一个学校每一个单位所提出来的计划然后这个合拨的补助但是学校在执行上面我想每一个学校都一样应该有监督的角色而不是放任这个计划自行进行"},{"start":6976.676,"end":7004.358,"text":"那教育部呢教育部扮演的角色在這個案子當中我是沒有看到不過我們看到亡羊補牢教育部在報告當中說你跟國科會衛福部體育署都會成立一個跨部會聯合抽查的一個機制出來嘛對不對那其實部長我要跟你提啊你現在成立一個跨部會的這個抽查機制事實上你就有審查機制了嘛也有監督機制所以呢空有機制不去做那是沒有用的我們只是在這邊說的多但做的少"},{"start":7005.919,"end":7019.536,"text":"这一点不是在斥责或是怒骂任何人而是我们检讨的问题就发现奇怪我们怎么就是机制都有但我们都没做所以我想请教你一下你这个联合抽查机制这个机制你现在跨部会成立起来了吗"},{"start":7020.649,"end":7040.807,"text":"成立了成立了那你有沒有預計一年當中定期不定期怎麼樣去一個抽查我想我們現在跨部會主要就針對這個事件裡面有現有的許多的規範審查希望能夠有改善的空間當然包含這個事件的本身還有哪些我們沒有擬親的一些的責任因為"},{"start":7041.688,"end":7045.971,"text":"PIE這個陳教授跟COPIE周老師還有其他的一些計畫我們希望能夠全盤的釐清那當然也感謝委員提醒我們因為這個視線確實我必須要承認過去在大學裡面當然它有來自於IRB的審查在事前的審查那校內比較少"},{"start":7064.864,"end":7082.351,"text":"因為過去人類經驗控比較是從行政財務上去去做檢視比較少針對老師的研究裡面去做這一個不定期的一個好部長來因為我的時間也到了我想我最後一句話去叮您了這一次這個教訓是非常痛的一個教訓是"},{"start":7083.351,"end":7112.695,"text":"那我們不希望看到這麼痛的教訓之後我們再有類似的事情發生那就是完全完全不可原諒了所以呢就由這一次那你不管是之後在事前的審查市中間的這個這個這個督查然後監督以及你現在事後你要所有要做的事情我覺得落實這件事很重要那我們也希望跨部會的小組成立起來後不要只有口號還是各唱各的調那該定期開會的該定期稽查的我們一定要落實做到可以嗎"},{"start":7114.757,"end":7122.684,"text":"是好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝萬美玲委員質詢官員請回座接下來有請陳秀寶委員質詢謝主席請教育部政部長以及國科會書副主委請部長副主委備質詢謝謝"},{"start":7143.666,"end":7164.618,"text":"委員好部長好部長我這邊要先就人工智慧學成聯盟這個問題來就教部長本期一直都很關心教育部新開設的人工智慧學成聯盟從休克人數學校發放獎勵金給有選休克的學生到選克學生退選"},{"start":7166.159,"end":7184.25,"text":"本席都有强调我们应该要因材施教也希望说教育部这边要积极规划不同程度的课程给不同程度的学生来选课但从整个新闻的报道这个结果呢本席觉得非常遗憾关于休闭学生只有四到六成这个状况部长您的看法呢"},{"start":7185.697,"end":7209.859,"text":"我跟我們報告本來我們這個TICA這個人工智慧大學聯盟本來就是在彌補我們現有大學裡面譬如說在AI的人才比較多集中在台城清教那還有很多的學生很多年輕的學子他們也希望能夠學AI但是學校本身可沒有開這個課然後也沒有辦法去修課所以才會希望又部長"},{"start":7210.539,"end":7231.15,"text":"我知道您當初我們教育部開設這個學成聯盟的利益是良善的是好的我們也都是支持的但是我現在有從您的這樣子還沒有讓你講完但是我覺得從您的回答來看您並不覺得說這個四到六成這個狀況這個有什麼不好有什麼需要改善那我現在請教您人工智慧學成聯盟還會不會繼續下去"},{"start":7233.308,"end":7245.39,"text":"我想這個是有價值的應該因為線上學習本來就沒有說每一個人要學但是多一個資源請問授課的方式我們會不會調整我們會不會去增加不同的難易程度的課程來提供學生做選擇我跟委員報告我們確實這一個團隊感謝這個清大這個台大這一個台城清教所組的這個教師團隊他們也在思考規劃不同的一些這一個程度的這些的課程"},{"start":7261.613,"end":7283.073,"text":"所以會做調整就對了是 我們跟委員報告第二學期事實上已經double由原來2400多將近5000人休課而且通過率也有7乘5表示說學生來自不同的剛開始很多的學校的學生可能不一定知道有這個資源慢慢它隨著擴散越來越多受益"},{"start":7284.414,"end":7305.939,"text":"部長這邊我還是要強調說本席是支持的這個人工智慧學成聯盟的利益是良善的也受到業者很高度的期待所以我們是希望說藉由這樣的課程我們來增加相關科技人才的培育及養成但是我們課程如果出現需要調整的地方培養科技人才的方向沒有錯但是我們必須要有適合學生的課程來提供給他們來選然後"},{"start":7308.3,"end":7329.508,"text":"可以一直休息下去而不是選課之後馬上退掉那本席過去有提醒你們的相關的問題顯然教育部你們也沒有很重視所以我希望說教育部你們檢討改進之後呢我們有持續下去這樣的課程提供給學生來做選課來學習我相信說只要有改善本席相信說大家都會支持的"},{"start":7330.168,"end":7356.601,"text":"那另外這邊我想請教國科會就是目前我們這兩天的新聞台積電報出二賴米製程移招外洩這個事件這個是已經進入司法調查的程序那這一次的這個機密外洩的事件呢台積電這邊有沒有跟國會這邊來分享阿里又分享他們經驗就是說如何防止機密外洩的事件擴及其他國安產業也提醒其他相關的產業要做好保密的工作"},{"start":7357.501,"end":7382.186,"text":"是謝謝委員這個部分這個案子其實是台積電本身在例行性的檢查裡面發現有異常然後主動通報這個法務部高檢署那國科會針對國家核心關鍵技術的部分其實跟法務部有協作的機制就是說將來這個機制在技術上面涉及到各部會的核心關鍵技術的部分該怎麼樣來處理其實我們已經有協作的機制以上報告"},{"start":7382.506,"end":7399.592,"text":"好 謝謝這次的事件其實引起軒然大波因為這個二奈米的製程是屬於國家核心關鍵的技術那針對這次的外線案也希望說當作一個教材讓業界來參考希望可以更全面的防堵相關的犯罪來守護我國的核心關鍵技術"},{"start":7401.053,"end":7418.8,"text":"那接下來呢我想請教關於從剛才的每個委員都非常關心的台式大女竹抽血案的這個後續那國客會這邊有表示說會嚴以加重違反學術倫理的處罰那這邊想請教國客會以目前的規範是停止涉案人一"},{"start":7419.46,"end":7437.686,"text":"一年到十年不能申請國客會的計畫那未來你們所謂的加重要如何加重是將地板跟天花板同時拉高還是會做出向前追溯追討補助款的處罰那目前針對台師大女竹這個案子國客會有沒有考慮說會追討之前精準運動計畫這個補助款"},{"start":7439.286,"end":7453.243,"text":"是 這幾個方向我們都有在研議在進行所以會將來加重的部分包含停權追回相關的研究經費或者是對於執行的機構它的管理費的減除我們都有會進行"},{"start":7454.304,"end":7470.637,"text":"所以會追溯追討之前的相關的計畫的補助那同時這個加重處罰的部分就是這樣本來是一年到十年不能再申請這個部分可能就會拉大距離可能是往後延十五年或二十年都可能你們在研議中最小處分"},{"start":7472.558,"end":7477.361,"text":"謝謝副主委這邊其實我要要求國科會這邊針對這個有人體試驗的這個計畫應該要進行盤點以及要重新檢視相關的規範我們要全面杜絕相關的事件在發生的可能性那第二個部分就是相關的研究計畫不管是受試者還是失策者"},{"start":7492.149,"end":7515.888,"text":"應該要充分的都是知情的同意的並且也充分了解自身的權益這一點我很要求就是說一定要落實做到以避免像類似的事件再發生是好謝謝副主委那這邊我想請教教育部本週呢我們將針對這個台式大典主案涉案的29件涉抽血的這個案子入校查核那我想知道一下現在目前的進度是什麼"},{"start":7517.035,"end":7539.351,"text":"跟委員報告目前有三個學校需要查核那已經完成了其中台師大的查核接下來台大跟北市大我們都會再繼續陸續進行查核好那針對國科會有90件涉採血樣本的計畫我們未來會如何查核以及有什麼相關違規處罰的機制呢教育部這邊是不是也可以一併說明"},{"start":7540.632,"end":7556.314,"text":"報告委員在我們的跨部會的專案小組當中國科會也把這97案交由教育部跟衛福部分別依照我們的權責要進行後續的查處那如果確實有違反IRB的部分我們也會依法來究責"},{"start":7557.415,"end":7578.963,"text":"所以已經很正式的把這些該查核的部分都很嚴謹的已經在陸續的進行當中這邊我要強調一下這次的談事大的女主案不僅牽涉到研究倫理學術倫理霸凌其實也再次的揭露了學生對老師教練以及運動員當中這個階級的部分很嚴重的權力不對等的狀況那其實也坐實了我們對學生權益的不重視"},{"start":7585.845,"end":7592.608,"text":"部長您對這個事件 整個的狀況您到現在 您有什麼樣的說法跟想法市評院我是非常的沉痛這超乎我的想像"},{"start":7598.971,"end":7615.183,"text":"所以很多事情是沒有說出來不見得它是不存在的那這次的事件爆發之後其實我的辦公室也接受到了類似就是教授為了自身的研究將必修學分握在手上要求學生代替老師去發放這個問卷做調查"},{"start":7616.604,"end":7636.403,"text":"如果學生他不知道做呢可能就是沒有辦法畢業的這樣的陳情喔那我這邊很憂心的是說如果這種狀況是常態那我們到底要怎麼樣改善我也希望教育部你們可以開始著手去了解相關的狀況讓我們的孩子不會成為某些無良教授的這個下手的目標這個部分部長你可以承諾嗎是"},{"start":7638.364,"end":7653.352,"text":"我想這一定要做的好 謝謝那書副主委你先請回部長接下來剛剛提到這個部分我接下來要跟您請教的就是關於霸凌的部分那教育部這份資料從112年到114年到現在校案通報的霸凌件數從112年的3256件到114年的113年就暴增到4178件"},{"start":7665.998,"end":7675.681,"text":"平均是一個月就有348件的這個通報案件那在114年1到6月上半年就高達2631件平均是一個月就有438件那這個通報的數字顯示說包含不管是生對生"},{"start":7682.443,"end":7708.263,"text":"或是失對生的霸凌當然教育部的說法都是說因為通報書不等於成案書是因為現在大家比較有自我的意識對這個霸凌的防治這個重視所以才會有這麼多的通報的案件但是我這邊憂心的是說我們的教育場域不該成為霸凌的溫床我們如何加強防治讓學生甚至不管什麼年齡都可以清楚的了解到自己的權益及做到自我保護"},{"start":7709.504,"end":7722.629,"text":"像台師大女竹案 海洋科大特教生案都是這個師對生嚴重權力不對等的霸凌相繼被揭發那部長您覺得您應該要如何加強才能減少霸凌案一直發生"},{"start":7727.148,"end":7751.857,"text":"我想我們確實在許多的這個霸凌的這個防治的一個層面裡邊的這一個從程序從法令從層面上我們的考慮應該都可以再更精進那我想我們會再有一個專業的團隊更細緻的來研議看怎麼樣來改善因為確實我們有許多的校園友善包含老師的班級經營的真人包含"},{"start":7754.958,"end":7775.593,"text":"怎麼樣去有一個SELO的一個從家長社區到學校一起變成一個學校友善校園的一個提供不是只是學校而已就把整個系統從社區裡面的能量也都能夠拉進來那我想這一個怎麼樣讓它能夠更細緻更到位我想這我們會認真來這個檢討來精進"},{"start":7779.116,"end":7792.071,"text":"更細緻更到位你們會再繼續來研議那有沒有預設大概什麼期程什麼時候會有相關的一些比較具體的做法出來您給自己多少時間"},{"start":7793.243,"end":7817.001,"text":"事實上包含我們現在包含 譬如說我們學校的空間怎麼樣去提供有一個更能夠有趣 能夠讓學生能夠遊戲而不是只是學生只是都抱著3C手機等等的 我們其實就前面但是也許是不是委員讓我們有一段時間把它更想清楚我想年底之前給委員一個更完整的報告說明"},{"start":7818.502,"end":7830.486,"text":"好 那就請你們這邊演繹相關出來之後呢那給一份報告給我辦公室那接下來我再請教關於張氏的輔資爆出性騷的這個案件部長 張氏大的輔資系培養了很多優秀的心理師"},{"start":7837.268,"end":7845.998,"text":"那張師的輔資也是中部職業心理師他們回去呢 真能一個上課的一個系所所以這個事件爆發出來之後其實很震撼輔導跟諮商界喔那這就像剛才本席所說的我們對學生的權益不重視"},{"start":7853.527,"end":7874.88,"text":"那張師大的事件發生之後呢退休的這個施安教授在府之間是非常有重量的一個教師那相關的從業人員都應該上過這位教授的課甚至讀過他的書我想說部長事件的發生是可以引導我們正確的方向前進但是我們必須要及時修正那張師傅"},{"start":7877.041,"end":7888.225,"text":"輔資培育出來的心理師平常他們就是在做療癒心理治療的工作可是他自己卻自身遭受到這樣子不可磨滅的傷害所以我會希望說教育部你們這邊針對諮商圈的連署發出來的要求要做出回應"},{"start":7893.427,"end":7914.223,"text":"他們的要求是希望說因為現在張士大的這個事件呢校方是說一個退休一個報解聘兩個在調查中但是其實對整個輔助圈他們的意思就是說整個事件已經都成立了校方卻讓這個教授退休這讓他們很不能接受而且他們是要求要公開決議結果"},{"start":7916.064,"end":7927.253,"text":"所以這邊我也希望說教育部你們本身對這件事情你們要有所回應而且要緊盯殭屍大廈後續的相關的處理那這個部分呢我們教育部現在你們如何來協助"},{"start":7929.511,"end":7948.064,"text":"我們會為這個成立專案小組在實際的到這個張師大去了解整個這個情形因為以張師大當時報上來的確實他校教評會是沒有構成這個解聘停聘嘛等於說做成這樣的一個決議嘛然後"},{"start":7950.019,"end":7956.964,"text":"這個彰化縣政府也大概就是等於說這個針對這個情節這個做成結議是裁罰三萬塊那我想來自於這個整個的調查裡兵當時的這個這個張氏她報來到教育部因為她沒有涉及到"},{"start":7968.772,"end":7997.151,"text":"到這個解聘這個停聘的一個階段所以教育部才本以這個法令上這個同意他回函同意他退休那如果從這個事件來看還有許多的疑慮這個需要去擬清了我想我們教育部會進一步來來了解來進行調查謝謝部長有表達了你們的立場跟你們的態度但是對這個諮商圈的這個連署他這個做回應的這個部分我也希望說您這邊一定要督促"},{"start":7998.832,"end":8024.46,"text":"所做的這個要求包括公開決議的結果以及後續的這些相關的處理最後我還要求這個事件的發生一定會衝擊到在校學生所以本席希望說教育部這邊可以督促張士大對在校學生進行相關的心理輔導來降低學生這個衝擊以及他們的焦慮這個部分希望你們可以盡快好那再來呢我再借主席一點時間"},{"start":8025.78,"end":8037.633,"text":"最後我要關心就是關於運動部的成立運動部將在下個月9號正式成立我想請教一下部長或是署長你們認為說運動部成立之後首要目標是什麼"},{"start":8040.605,"end":8060.048,"text":"報告委員我想基於總統的所謂一個大的一個體育政策是競技運動全民化這也是我們成立全新運動部一個最重要的一個亮點主軸所以在未來在全民運動這一塊的社區的運動的推廣方面會是我們所要的一個準備工作社區運動的推廣"},{"start":8061.289,"end":8082.684,"text":"其實大家在運動部的期待都很深希望說運動部成立之後可以更全面的來推動全民運動可以守護運動員以及更落實運動員的權益那在這邊本席要提出幾點最近一次的運動部諮詢小組會議都有提到說應該建立教練管理培訓的這個機制那這一次台式大女竹這個事件裡面對於教練事任檢討的這個聲音"},{"start":8086.587,"end":8105.759,"text":"不論是未來誰擔任運動部的部長都應該很積極來建立相關的程序並且要很嚴格的落實喔那第二個部分呢運動部有研擬就是國小體育班要轉型但是本席這邊接受到很多孩子正在體育班就讀的家長都非常的憂心喔也認為說你們都沒有事先做好溝通那本席建議說國小體育班轉型這個配套我們應該要去加強輔導及宣導來降低教練"},{"start":8114.824,"end":8128.68,"text":"家長以及學生的焦慮這個部分我希望你們可以盡快著手我這邊不好意思我先做一個澄清所謂的體育班轉型其實我們是給他六年的時間所以請大家也不用太過於憂心我們配套會把它做好的"},{"start":8129.841,"end":8152.07,"text":"那關於第三個部分是關於競技運動全民化的目標裡面裡面有提到說社區運動俱樂部的推動那很多鄉親非常的關心就是所謂的社區運動俱樂部的相關規定及配套那我要想請教像太極拳社團土風舞排舞社團這到底符不符合民眾他們都很關心所以這個部分該如何溝通該如何去宣導跟輔導我希望說我們這邊已經有一個相關的辦法出來"},{"start":8156.294,"end":8176.561,"text":"報告委員這其實應該是說在九月份部長跟全民署的署長到任之後我們會在年底之前因為我們所有的經費是明年開始那在這個期間我們其實會把他說的機制業務的需求與相對應的法規的修改都會在這個期間來進行那事實上我們現在已經有一些"},{"start":8177.461,"end":8190.135,"text":"有一些案子 有一些副案但是還是要等新的署長跟部長到任之後才能真正來實施好 那就是相關的辦法你們在研擬中謝謝那第四個就是最後的部分運動員的自我權益的意識應該向下衍生本期希望運動部會把這個運動員權益列入運動員課程或是講習"},{"start":8199.145,"end":8227.042,"text":"要從根本來建立自我保護的這個權利的意識來防止說運動界這個傳統的陋習這個部分我覺得非常重要我們讓運動員知道在怎樣的一個程度下是要自我保護要啟動這樣的機制那最後我也希望說運動部部長的人選可以盡快公佈因為這個很多的建議很多的聲音都希望是很切實可以傳達到運動部部長這邊不要讓國人覺得說運動部的成立只是跌床架屋謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":8228.626,"end":8233.571,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢官員請回座接下來有請張雅玲委員質詢謝主席那我想我們就先邀請體育署署長謝謝請體育署署長備質詢謝謝"},{"start":8246.856,"end":8270.912,"text":"因為前面大家都已經問了非常多台師大的抽血案的事情所以我今天的部分我想我這部分就不講太多但我有一個很好奇的點就是說過去其實我們有非常多的家長都一直在關心說因為我們這幾年已經有層出不窮的運動領域狼教練的事件所以家長都一直很期待就是說是不是可以公佈"},{"start":8272.173,"end":8292.528,"text":"那但是過去都告訴我們說因為個資法不能公佈啊可是在這一次的周台英教練的這個事件竹協卻是完全全民公佈欸你可以看到那個署長可以看到右手邊齁這個竹協公佈一樣是涉嫌兒少性侵案齁他都是三個字三個圈圈"},{"start":8294.11,"end":8301.481,"text":"可是為什麼周台英教練卻可以全民露出呢這一點我很納悶欸可不可以說明一下包圍員那這部分呢當然"},{"start":8302.5,"end":8326.929,"text":"我個人認為這是足球協會本身自己的決定那它是它跟教練之間的一個事情但是我們今天問體育署體育署都是因為各自的關係啊對就我們公部門來講我們比較嚴謹我們是希望在未來國體法第31條能夠來增修來賦予法源的依據我們不是不願意這樣做但是我們未來會把這件事情把它放進下一期的國體法的修法"},{"start":8328.029,"end":8354.75,"text":"好 那據我所知8月15號就會開會也就是下禮拜就會開會了所以我們下個禮拜應該是就我所知8月15號就要開會了所以我們的目標都是要促成修法 對嗎是好 所以這樣未來有這個法源的話應該是所有的協會有相關的事務涉及到兒少我們都可以公佈嗎因為其實你現在放三個圈圈圈對家長來說是非常恐慌耶是我並不曉得我小孩是不是遇到這個教練耶沒有錯"},{"start":8355.971,"end":8360.516,"text":"對 那我們之前問體育署體育署都會跟我們講說請家長去找合格教練可是這完全是聞不對題啦所以我只是想問在現行的狀態之下在還沒有辦法全民公佈的狀況之下到底家長還可以怎麼做呢"},{"start":8372.099,"end":8399.527,"text":"報告委員我們其實意思是要在宣傳推廣說希望家長們還是可以到我們的體育署的網站去做查詢合格的教練的名單就是他知道他今天如果要找這個教練其實把他的名字輸進去來查詢我理解啦我的意思是說現在萬一就是他在合格教練沒有找到他的教練的時候又看到三個圈圈圈的時候那他就會非常的緊張嗎他到底可以去哪裡來協助這些家長我建議如果找不到就不要找這個教練"},{"start":8401.272,"end":8417.786,"text":"我的問題是他的小孩已經了嘛已經就是在沒有在合格教練的名單上面了嘛對 那我說我們現在還可以怎麼樣協助家長嗎在現行我們各自法這些整整整整都還沒有辦法通過的時候我們可不可以難道露出一個性不行嗎跟主協討論露出一個性不行嗎"},{"start":8418.987,"end":8439.493,"text":"包委我們有就是主要也是我們法治這邊有建議我們還是這部分還是沒有辦法在現階段來完成這件事情但我們的確往這個方向那我們加速好不好是那我們加速好不好好不要因為這樣子一直持續下去我想在場如果是家長的話看到這三個圈都會非常的害怕是好不好好那再來就是說接下來就是要"},{"start":8440.994,"end":8464.77,"text":"問這個有關於我們這個有關運動部的事情因為我想這個總統的八大政見就一直不停的在強調我們要全民運動產業化以及競技運動全民化那我看了一下我們的預算其實是規模已經超越日本了我們基本上是都差不多70億可是我們的人口數是差了6倍"},{"start":8465.45,"end":8478.935,"text":"等於是說我們拿到每一個人人均分配的體育預算是相對來說是高的那我不曉得說我們這麼高的預算這個預算的分配是怎麼樣我們應該要得到一個很不錯的資源吧幫委員"},{"start":8480.987,"end":8501.549,"text":"可不可以簡單回應一下我想我國的體育的經費跟日本有一個很大的不同就是日本他們在民間的給予運動產業或是運動的協會選手的支持度遠比我國還要高很多那這部分也就是為什麼我國在公務預算以及基金這部分預算要稍微拉得比較高一點"},{"start":8502.723,"end":8526.894,"text":"這樣就最大的差別在這裡民間的力量可是問題是現在看起來你說他給協會的支持度比較高那我們現在我是說整個預算規模來說我們其實差不多362億換算成台幣大概就是70億左右我們給協會的資源其實大部分用在選手的培訓本身還有出國比賽所以我們給選手的支持度的確在全世界來講應該是蠻前面的才對"},{"start":8528.059,"end":8554.906,"text":"對,所以我想知道的是說,到底是如果70億的資源下去之後,我們的成果會越來越好嗎?包委您指的是哪部分的成果?對,我現在具體來說就是說,因為你剛剛講了嘛,362億他們給協會資源很多,可是我們是給選手的資源很多嘛,那未來當我們運動部要成立,我們的預算也會越來越多,那表示我們給協會的資源也會越來越多嗎?是這樣子嗎?"},{"start":8556.006,"end":8567.072,"text":"並沒有 我們接下來主要的主軸主力會在全民運動這一塊全民運動這一塊以及公建計畫這一塊的執行好 那我想簡單聽起來就是說我們應該會有公建計畫大部分應該就是在場館的建置嘛是對吧好 那我想問一下喔因為其實剛剛講全民運動一定要產業化競技對我來說啦是全民運動一定要產業化競技運動才能全民化對因為沒有產業怎麼可能推動全民嘛"},{"start":8585.462,"end":8606.943,"text":"所以我想問一下,因為我看你們的報告就有說你們會做一些不管是賽事、聯賽讓這個活動看起來更娛樂化然後更這個有可看性啊等等那我想問的是我們現在本來就有一些比賽的播報但是種類相對有限那未來是會提升更多的場次還是說我們會提升更多的種類就是比賽的種類這樣子"},{"start":8610.566,"end":8635.078,"text":"報告委員 其實我們現在的確有一些復案那朱董我剛剛也回答其他委員的就是我們會在9月9號成立之後由部長以及新的全民運動署的署長來做更細部的規劃那我們現在講說我們期待因為這部分我們同仁完全沒有做過那我們是希望先把我們的所謂的社區的俱樂部先去做一個明確的定義"},{"start":8635.798,"end":8664.764,"text":"我們其實在過去這幾個月我們在做腦力計當然想說我們到底我們可以補助的對象是哪些比方說我們可以比照文化部他非常的寬鬆我們現階段教育部體育署的規定是非常的嚴格也有牽涉到圖利的問題我們希望在業務部分在社區聯賽等等俱樂部的支持讓他點火讓他發展起來相對應這個業務就要有相對應的法規去做修改才行所以這部分會在9月到12月之間來"},{"start":8665.624,"end":8684.414,"text":"做蠻快速的一個處理所以你說這個要播報的種類其實是牽涉於法規我們現在不夠我們現在太過僵化嘛對不對聽起來是這樣那我接下來也想要再請教一下因為我講今天能夠讓大家都看這個比賽其實還有一個非常重要的點是有沒有精彩嘛對不對"},{"start":8685.214,"end":8698.564,"text":"還有播報有沒有很有趣嘛對不對那我知道你們現在在這個計畫裡面是有提到說你們會跟傳播人才去做一個合作那接下來我想再請教那我們在賽事的精彩度上面是不是也要有所提升那是不是可以跟我們的協會幫"},{"start":8700.345,"end":8722.298,"text":"那一起來輔導他們舉辦更多的賽事例如可能像是Super 100到300等等的比較屬於也沒那麼高階但是他可以吸引可能不管是提供我們國內的選手參賽或者是可以吸引東南亞的選手可以來參賽就可以提升提升我們的一個可看性這件事情是可以跟單項協會一起來協助他們嗎因為透過這件事情也才能夠去解決這個裁員的問題嘛"},{"start":8723.959,"end":8735.09,"text":"報告委員其實這部分我在去年的時候也希望能夠大力來支持習慣來做這件事情不過因為礙於我們的基金的負擔實在是非常的沉重因為我們的運發基金他不只是賽事的部分"},{"start":8735.509,"end":8763.079,"text":"人才培育的部分也是一個重點可是我們的運財目前的收入還沒有辦法每年這樣足以來支持我們要做這麼多的事情所以我們才希望說有一些基金能夠迴遍到公務但是這部分目前主計總署當然還在做審查當中那這部分我們也在努力然後像現在的直嵐像霹靂他們就有在往東南亞來擴張這是很好的一個例子那我們希望協會能夠來往這個方向來進行"},{"start":8763.979,"end":8786.059,"text":"但是我現在講的其實是協助我們接下來未來會有運產中心嗎?他是不是也可以來做這樣一個協助的工作?運產中心我會賦予他我個人目前對他的期許是在社區基層的部分能夠去做點火的一個效益出來那我們希望輔導的是基層的賽事公司或是教練個人工作室讓教練就業機會及基層的產業能夠發展起來"},{"start":8788.635,"end":8808.783,"text":"對但是我想因為你今天人才起來之後一定要有比賽嘛一定要有一些比賽嘛所以我們像俱樂部像社區的俱樂部我們可以賦予他社區的聯賽的這個舉辦所以我們可以補助他那但是我們現在沒辦法這樣直接補助因為他不是公家單位所以變成要用招標採購那我們希望未來法規可以來做修法來做鬆綁"},{"start":8809.363,"end":8830.757,"text":"好所以這件事情也是回到法規的部分那最後一個部分我也想要再請教就是說因為你今天要有不管是社區也好你要有比賽你就要有場地好你要有場地那我們遷足計畫在113年到現在呢去年是增加了18個案例可是到現在也總共也只有26個場地那我想要知道因為在我們的計畫裡面也有提到說我們會有"},{"start":8832.259,"end":8846.72,"text":"場館的設施的建立那我想知道明年未來我們的規劃是怎麼樣可以因為過去都告訴我們說縣市不願意啊大家都不來申請啊那我們未來增加了我們繼續往這個方向推進的時候我們如何解決我們過去的這些遇到的問題"},{"start":8847.845,"end":8872.494,"text":"我們大概分幾個層級第一個是在國家級國際級的賽事的部分我們現在有幾個不錯的選項比方說像退場的但是我們剛講的是社區俱樂部啊對啊社區的部分我們也是希望還是一樣積極來我們在盤點希望各縣市能夠把一些土地能夠挪出來但是之前就說他們沒有意願啊所以這樣子才不是要對這是我們困難的地方我們其實是有經費但是縣市政府他不願意來申請"},{"start":8873.214,"end":8883.143,"text":"那我們要如何解決呢?不然這樣子這件事情就會留在口號階段我們目前想到的是用評比的方式來進行給縣市政府的首長壓力所以你覺得這樣子是有效的嗎?試試看"},{"start":8890.444,"end":8899.01,"text":"好 没关系这个部分我们会后再约时间来仔细谈我认为除了还有这个部分除了迁徒计划要建设场馆之外还有现在学校的场地"},{"start":8921.124,"end":8946.281,"text":"基層的意見呢我們應該要做一些相關的座談來收集了解他們現場可能遇到的問題不然我覺得我們只有叫人家開放可是我們都一直沒有去回應他們現場可能就是會有圍管的問題啊經費從哪裡來等等的我覺得這個都不需要去做一個更謹慎的討論這樣才能夠讓大家的政策美意啦可以被接受到好不好我們最近其實有找幾個縣市的局處所長的一些城辦的人員來做討論"},{"start":8947.922,"end":8972.736,"text":"那他們有幾個縣市甚至有幾個學校也都表達希望針對我們未來的政策有意願來做一個試辦看看那當然我們先做溝通溝通完來選擇有意願的他們先執行那我們再來全面擴大所以我們會先有一個試辦計畫我們先收集意見做幾個試辦計畫之後我們再來執行就是要先聽聽看基層的聲音對 就是校園活化的部分嘛對不對好 那這樣子我就希望說到時候我們可以有一個不錯的"},{"start":8973.817,"end":8997.173,"text":"追蹤以及檢討好那接下來就是體育班的部分我快速的問一下因為我剛剛有聽到就是說我們現在是用一個六年期的轉型計劃所以我想要知道什麼時候我們會有一個比較明確的因為這會影響到就是現在國小體育班的老師他們未來的出路大概什麼時候會有一個比較詳細的計劃呢報告委員這個問題能不能容許您九月再問新任可以沒有問題謝謝"},{"start":8998.871,"end":9014.03,"text":"好的那接下來我想還是簡單這個我想現在是可以來處理的就是我關於黃金計畫的部分就是我們的黃金計畫目前是針對於這個奪牌備戰洛杉磯奧運為目標有一個黃金計畫3.0"},{"start":9015.692,"end":9042.932,"text":"那現在是有分一到六級但是根據我收到的最新的消息就是我們第六級原本是針對18歲以下或者是特殊狀況下得以延長到19歲的青年優秀選手來去做一個培養但是目前原本我們希望可以收到30到150人可是現在只有35個人顯然參與意願低落以及機制吸引力不足的確讓我們造成這個人數不如預期的一個狀況"},{"start":9044.963,"end":9073.443,"text":"那我自己詳細的去了解之後呢我發現我也認為就是我們的計劃目標跟年齡族群不符合因為我們黃金計劃原本就是要奪牌嘛對不對可是你第六級的選手都還是累積積分或是成長的階段其實是很難在短時間累積一個國際化的成果那同時呢我們這個培育時間又非常長變數非常非常的高那路統一的資源考核跟追蹤架構可能也會導致我們的效率評估模糊與資源錯置的問題"},{"start":9074.944,"end":9094.827,"text":"那同時剛剛還有講就是我們的誘因跟這個制度的設計不足這個基層的培訓跟經費也可能產生互斥加上基層對於評選與升級的機制也不清楚容易產生信任的問題那最後呢現行的制度其實並沒有辦法建構一個完整選手的發展路徑"},{"start":9095.968,"end":9122.048,"text":"因為黃金計畫著重的是短期的表現可是長期的人才培養應該要有另外一套制度好像是LTDA的模型下的分靈訓練階段管理系統逐步的來建構接班梯隊就例如我們可以把它想像是一個三角形獨排選手黃金計畫應該是在最頂尖的那一個部分那我們最底層有一個潛優培訓計畫我們中間是不是也可以有一個計畫可能類似就是一個青年優秀選手培育計畫呢"},{"start":9123.329,"end":9130.481,"text":"像這樣子的方式讓我們基層的選手可以得到更好的一個支持啦是不是可以"},{"start":9131.035,"end":9160.459,"text":"我簡單的說明一下就是在這第六集的環境計畫第六集及我們的潛優當中其實的確有一些相互重疊還有一些一些gap在中間在裡面我們這請國訓中心跟我們的經濟組再來做一些檢討不過未來我們的確有一些新的想法比方說我們這一次的網球四大運的成績讓我們看到說我們未來可能不要把環境計畫是潛優給所有個人的選手而我們可以把它製造一個網球學校的這樣一個概念"},{"start":9161.619,"end":9183.469,"text":"讓國家隊跟這個網球學校來合作我們所有的選手青年選手回國的時候統一來這邊因為我們會聘請國際非常優秀的教練來這裡也提供他住宿那讓他們隨時可以進來那不是國訓喔那這樣子的方式可以降低他們資源的浪費他們也不用到處去找各個國際的教練所以這部分也是我們在想一些創新的做法"},{"start":9183.789,"end":9189.934,"text":"但是我認為啦就是說我們現在其實就有一個千里馬認科選才計畫嘛我們是不是可以把這個青年優秀選手培育計畫是做一個適度的結合嘛因為你本來就是在培養在從千里馬去找出小的嘛年紀小的我們發現他可能有機會那有機會我們就應該讓他有個青年梯隊在中間的地方讓他一層一層的接上去委員你講的沒有錯所以這部分我們會去做強化當然就是對他的支持特別他要轉職到公開頂尖或者是職業的部分那的確是需要更多的一個資源下去好"},{"start":9213.812,"end":9237.005,"text":"那所以我聽起來就是說我們現在應該是支持我們有一個這樣子接班梯隊的計畫 對嗎讓接下來還沒有得到奪牌水準的從第六級分離出來更明確的我們是要來培養他未來可以奪牌但不是現在 要去瞄準2028的奧運那接下來我想要再爭取一點點時間一點點時間就是說 那我們的一些我們是不是可以在這件事情上面呢建構一個長期的追蹤資料庫"},{"start":9239.586,"end":9256.534,"text":"像是他的身體素質、技術評量、國際潛力比對等等的我們提供更好的資源來協助他們包含還有經費的部分鮑委員這部分我們會來努力看看這部分我贊同贊同是不是好謝謝那我就期待我們接下來這個我可以什麼時候來追蹤相關的進度呢"},{"start":9258.616,"end":9273.556,"text":"國訓中心嗎?因為這跟國訓中心嘛我們的競技組好了競技組是不是我們跟競技組來追蹤相關的進度那我們大概什麼時候可以來追蹤一下呢因為我知道黃金計畫現在已經火熱熱的在進行嘛對不對是"},{"start":9274.676,"end":9291.684,"text":"對,所以我們大概什麼時候可以把第六集分離出來,產生一個新的規劃呢?包圍我們這部分,包圍我們現在還是在做,還是在討論啦,但是我想因為運動部會是一個很重要的一個轉折。對,說明還是等9月9號之後是嗎?那許會比較有明確的規劃,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝張雅玲委員質詢,歡迎請回座,接下來有請林一錦召委。"},{"start":9305.695,"end":9315.445,"text":"謝主席 先有請曾耀部長跟彭副原署長請鄭部長 彭署長 貝子荀 謝謝部長好"},{"start":9321.428,"end":9338.964,"text":"首先先詢問您一下就是上一次的質詢本席曾經提過偏遠地區學校教師久任獎金的問題當時本席是提到說偏鄉的主任或這個後任校長他如果介紹到教育局去那因為沒有實際服務在偏鄉的這個學校"},{"start":9341.727,"end":9363.52,"text":"所以就不能採計年資那這部分部長有答應說要延誼按照這個比例來發放九任獎金那國教署也有跟本席說大約七月底前會定案那現在八月了不曉得延誼了如何那另外就是說本席上次來不及提到的就是目前九任的年資沒有採計欲因留庭的年資那"},{"start":9368.303,"end":9396.085,"text":"如果因為育嬰留庭而暫時沒有辦法去工作那年資就不予計算那這樣規定恐怕會讓更多的老師們不敢生孩子所以也不利於現在我們少子化要鼓勵生育的這個政策所以請問部長上述的規定會不會與這個性別平等工作法的所謂的促進工作平等的這個措施有相抵觸"},{"start":9396.926,"end":9400.652,"text":"那這個在本次的討論的修正的會議中有討論嗎那有什麼決議部長"},{"start":9405.415,"end":9426.31,"text":"謝謝委員 我想我們九院獎金事實上大概也感謝委員提這個問題因為外界一直認為說一定要留在研學校我們其實已經通過試 他可以跨縣市跨校採集因為那個學校可能他教了六年因為接著他可能已經補上一個正式的老師所以他並沒有帶他又去別的學校這個是"},{"start":9428.231,"end":9445.142,"text":"肯定他是可以採計的那另外一個剛才委員也感謝委員提醒我們事實上是按比例校長的借調在後用的是借調按比例給那至於剛才委員非常非常好的一個意願我想這是非常健康的一個一個主張我覺得我們應該來朝這個來支持的一個方向來因為確實我們現在希望有更多的這一些年輕老師他們也能夠"},{"start":9459.052,"end":9465.838,"text":"擁有一個小孩 然後有一個家庭 這個應該要被鼓勵好 那你會研議 往這個支持的方向好 謝謝部長我再請一下體育署鎮署長 台師大吳校長還有國科會書副主委 還有衛福部劉司長"},{"start":9485.66,"end":9501.841,"text":"好 謝謝我接下來還是要關心就是說我們全台灣民眾現在關心的這個台師大抽血案的問題那這個事件現在無論是教育部 國科會或者衛福部都在持續的調查當中那包含教育部"},{"start":9504.123,"end":9531.19,"text":"這個禮拜跟台大還有台師大還有北師大這個查核這個IRB那還有就是國科會也要釐清這個事件的來龍去脈那並且要研議更具體的所謂的學術倫理守則等等那這部分本席要請相關單位務必要嚴查嚴辦那不只是給當事的同學跟社會大眾一個交代"},{"start":9531.63,"end":9552.001,"text":"那更是要透過重新檢討這個學術研究倫理然後教育現場的權力結構等面向來重整這個台灣整體學術界的威信跟風氣那更重要的是說我們真的要防止類似的事件再次發生那針對這次的事件本席首先想要討論的是說"},{"start":9553.482,"end":9561.058,"text":"主持人或者受委託招募的受試者的人與受試者權利不對等的這個問題"},{"start":9563.001,"end":9587.854,"text":"通常這種涉及主持人跟受試者的權利不對等的研究案會被研究倫理審查委員會就是IRB擋下來但這一次的研究主持人跟受試者的管理者沒有適當揭露這個利害衝突所以審查會沒有及時去察覺到這種所謂的施生權利不對等的狀態"},{"start":9589.335,"end":9612.176,"text":"那我就想關心說那當研究計畫者有所隱瞞那IRB怎麼如何察覺到還是說要等到事件發生之後才會祭出懲處那IRB要如何避免流於行事或者缺乏實質的審查這部分是不是先請部長或者國科會這邊來做回答"},{"start":9614.361,"end":9632.735,"text":"我想就教育部這一個部分是我想我們應該大學裡面大學都要加強宣導學生接受老師或是參與老師任何的研究他認為他不想參與他隨時可以終止這本來也是IRB裡面一個很重要的一個精神受試者的權益要優先被保障"},{"start":9633.215,"end":9647.4,"text":"那第二個就在大學端裡面加強內控內積裡面做不定期的這樣一個對研究涉及到IRB的這一個相關的研究裡面能夠有一個定期跟不定期的一個抽減我想"},{"start":9649.062,"end":9668.032,"text":"怎麼樣一個加強這個查核然後來確保我們所有的學生跟碩士者的一個權益我想對 那所以剛我的問題是說那如果說當研究計畫者他有所隱瞞的時候那這樣整個機制怎麼樣去化解病人都一定要事情發生了才會知道"},{"start":9673.015,"end":9685.671,"text":"法當中就是有規定IRB就要定期的去查核他所督管所以他有所隱瞞也會通過查核去了解然後只要一有異常狀況他可以IRB可以命這個計畫終止執行好"},{"start":9689.395,"end":9706.468,"text":"那在此我想要討論的就是說當人體實驗的受試者是學生那要求受他們抽血的人正是老師啊或者是教授那這樣子光是這個實驗樣本的取得過程就有所謂研究倫理的疑慮啊"},{"start":9707.128,"end":9728.235,"text":"那台大研究倫理委員會的臨床實驗研究計畫的審查重點當中它有針對這種權力不對等的關係下面的人體實驗就有明確的規範不過台師大的IRB的案件受理的管理程序跟知情同意"},{"start":9729.335,"end":9752.854,"text":"與審查的程序就都沒有提到這一點那本席理解是說例如像我們這次這個女足精英學生球員這種相關的運科研究有很大機率是研究者和受試者就是教練跟隊員的上對下的關係因為最精英的這批學生球員他可能就是這個教練所訓練管理的"},{"start":9753.354,"end":9771.047,"text":"那或者研究者就是學生系上的教授那既然如此相關的管理規範不就應該要更加嚴謹嗎那所以要請教教部未來這種權力不對等的這種實驗和研究那你怎麼樣加強研究倫理的強化"},{"start":9773.339,"end":9801.32,"text":"我想這一個剛才包含我們這一個施大吳校長他也特別提到說學校裡邊怎麼樣去加強這個老師在研究倫理上的一些這一個教育訓練等一個真人我想這當然是一個那另外一個就是還是要必須要有一個不定期跟定期的一個查核機制那我覺得很重要的就是說我們對學生這一個部分我們還是要加強宣導"},{"start":9803.061,"end":9824.35,"text":"讓學生了解他的權益他可以自己保護那另外如果老師嚴重的違規這個本來校教評會都有一個處理機制我想這就是校教評會的一個處理機制如果還不足以去糾正老師的一個行為教育部的一個力量當然就一定會介入"},{"start":9825.31,"end":9842.105,"text":"好 那接著本席有注意到就是說教科部有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核作業要點那用這個查核人體研究的倫理審查委員會的運作情形那台師大在2022年"},{"start":9843.866,"end":9872.461,"text":"有通過教育部的不定期的查核那2023年的常規性的查核那台師大也在合格的名單中喔那合格的期限到2027年那但據這個受害了台師大的學生的描述教練可能是長期來用類似的手法在從事研究那教育部在這個不定期的查核跟常規性的查核裡面怎麼就沒有發現台師大的這個研究倫理"},{"start":9873.241,"end":9876.144,"text":"審查文會可能有失靈的狀況那政府到底在查核上發揮的實質的功能是不是失靈了 或者出現了什麼問題啊 部長"},{"start":9884.315,"end":9912.961,"text":"你查核過程都OK對 報告委員我們查核的重點其實是在查核整個學校IRV運作的機制那確實台師大在這件事情上面也有出現了一些異常的狀況為時所以我們在5月19號本部的IRV的一個決議裡頭就是停止從7月1號開始停止台師大受理新案的審查這個是我們對於台師大整個IRV的一個監控機制"},{"start":9914.281,"end":9936.632,"text":"是另外這個受試者的保護當然是學術研究一個很重要的一環那本席看了一下人體研究法的主管機關衛福部那衛福部他有一個人體研究倫理審查委員會即受試者保護查核基準作業準則這個內容有受試者保護的規範那他的這個"},{"start":9942.034,"end":9969.188,"text":"他的那個規範的完善可說是重中之重而且他第四章就專門寫研究對象就是所謂受試者的保護的嚴謹性那明確寫出說這個評估受試者的招募內容方式流程的適當性等等可是我們再看回到教育部教育部的一個人體研究倫理審查文會查核基準使用說明裡面其實就寫得很簡略"},{"start":9970.768,"end":9989.898,"text":"簡單的三四頁然後細緻度跟衛福部的差很多那基本上也沒有提到說受試者的保護所以教育部我們可不可以考慮真的來重新檢視你這一套人體研究倫理審查委員會的這個查核基準把它寫得詳細一點或者說加強受試者保護這一塊那"},{"start":9995.1,"end":10019.987,"text":"或者說教育部你認為在這一塊要如何經濟強化這個教育部在查核的力度那衛福部其實也應該可以給予協助啦是 謝謝委員提醒我想這我們會來改進好 就是以衛福部的這種查核的方式來作為主要的參考人家衛福部這個非常的詳盡好 那我想這件事當然也反映了就是體育生"},{"start":10021.548,"end":10035.966,"text":"學業升學 甚至參賽的資格我想常常會被教練掌控因為學生怕不能上場比賽得不到學分 或者受到委屈也不敢吭聲我想這也是關鍵"},{"start":10037.928,"end":10062.1,"text":"我小時候為了是田徑隊所以我很清楚能理解教練要訓練競技的運動他必須要建立權威不然要聽他的可是這個威信是要利他幫助孩子有更好的發展是利他的態度而不是拿來當自己的好處滿足自己的私慾所以本席有看到運動部的報告"},{"start":10064.481,"end":10081.196,"text":"有特別提到說體育班的轉型當中我們就是要檢討現行體育班跟專任教練運動教練的相關法規那這部分想要具體檢討哪些法規或修改的方向是什麼那體育班我想長期以來就是"},{"start":10082.037,"end":10099.247,"text":"相對是軍事化的管理啦就是比較威權的管理那教練說了算的這種思維那該如何革新那怎麼杜絕影響到學生的學業成績啊或者出賽資格這種事情再次發生署長"},{"start":10099.847,"end":10125.508,"text":"報告委員其實在您的簡報上面就有提到我們在整個體育班轉型的這個六年的過程當中對專任教練的一些要求考核都有一些變更希望我們至少從國小開始做起我們就是希望把它社區化社團化而不是以多排的思維為主那當然我們有一批比較資深的教練他的觀念可能因為我們這幾年才把兒少的這個部分"},{"start":10126.128,"end":10144.375,"text":"把他放進我們的教練的考證的這個課程當中那也因為這樣所以我們現在有在立法院的支持下我們現在有所謂的六年要換證那換證的過程那就必須要有真人所以資深的教練我們就會透過真人的部分再給予他一個重新的一個教育希望他們就像委員講的以立他為基礎進行"},{"start":10145.839,"end":10161.759,"text":"那最後就是說我有看到教育部跟未來的運動部對學校體育的這個部分已經做出分工那目前其實已經有開始在執行分工的任務了嗎已經開過應該有七八次的會議由戰略次長來主持討論蠻細的"},{"start":10164.682,"end":10188.602,"text":"我是想提醒初期應該會比較相對混亂一點那某些業務也很難區分誰要負責那當然我們不希望在這個業務轉移要分工的這個時候看到互踢皮球的狀態那應該可以做到啦包委我們其實會建立目前這個默契就是運動部成立之後兩個部會會有一個學校體育的一個溝通平台來做這個協調好 謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":10197.014,"end":10202.875,"text":"謝謝林警召委質詢 官員請回座 謝謝接下來有請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請部長請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝國教署長 市議司長對 委員好麻煩署長 市長也準備 謝謝"},{"start":10227.675,"end":10242.422,"text":"今天委員會有一個主題叫做關心全國中小學教師人力不足的問題那恰巧趙偉在昨天也有排了一場偏鄉教育條例修法的公聽會"},{"start":10243.922,"end":10262.975,"text":"那在這個當中呢有很多的委員有提出修法版本那我個人也有修法版本其中呢有一個部分是被討論的就是關於第七條跟第八條那這個第七條第八條我想先請教一下部長您有沒有聽過專聘教師"},{"start":10267.967,"end":10290.717,"text":"由地方來考試的一個代理老師我跟部長說明一下在偏鄉教育條例有出現一個名詞叫專聘教師那什麼叫專聘教師呢就是由教育主管機關他辦的聯合甄選出來的代理教師叫專聘教師就不會出現代理兩個字"},{"start":10291.937,"end":10316.525,"text":"那他是專門為我們偏鄉來設計他比一般代理教師多一點點薪水而且他可以無限的長期續聘所以這個叫做專聘教師可是部長您知不知道將近八年來 就是推動七年多來全國只有哪裡有專聘教師呢澎湖縣"},{"start":10318.19,"end":10332.961,"text":"只有澎湖縣有那為什麼會這樣可能是當時法條的一個疏漏啦因為他特別提到呢要由縣市政府來辦理聯合甄選結果呢只有澎湖縣有在辦"},{"start":10334.022,"end":10351.947,"text":"大部分的縣市都是用學校自辦所以就產生了這個問題因此我們就想要修法因為我們總是希望這一條的美意就是要讓這些代理教師我們希望他精進我們希望他從無證變有證"},{"start":10354.068,"end":10373.456,"text":"但是他也不是不想有證啊因為他地處偏遠他要去進修要花很長的地理時間而且呢也要花自己的錢可是我們偏鄉教育條例的美意是說全額補助這些專聘教師服務滿三年四學期可以全額補助進修師北"},{"start":10375.097,"end":10394.675,"text":"所以這個美意就沒有被用到因此呢我們就想要修第七條嘛我們想要放寬專聘教師的資格讓學校自辦的也可以嘛可是呢昨天呢出現一個插曲我們的教育行政機關的研究員呢他可能沒有搞清楚他認為呢修這個啊"},{"start":10396.997,"end":10424.11,"text":"是要來降低偏鄉的師資的數值他說這是走回頭路他說我們的教育沒有未來這樣怎麼辦所以呢我們只是提醒說其實第七條第八條他必須要來修的原因是因為就是要解決教師偏鄉教師的問題所以呢很好這個本來就是教育部既有的政策因為在你們的業報上也有提到"},{"start":10425.21,"end":10443.535,"text":"擴大開設各類學士後教育學分班對準偏遠地區需求這邊的解方有像114學年度有合訂這個班別有10個師培在做10個班那每班招收45名所以這個部分是有的"},{"start":10446.596,"end":10468.984,"text":"但是我要請部長看一下這邊有一個就是成績通知書在網路上熱烈討論為什麼被熱烈討論呢因為學生的成績這位是被取第74名他的成績是高於正取生的錄取標準"},{"start":10469.926,"end":10488.889,"text":"他的書審資料還有他的計劃書他的成績都是高於正取的這個錄取標準可是他的結果是被取74名那為什麼會產生這樣的問題因為我們可以回頭過來看我們當然可以理解"},{"start":10489.75,"end":10503.317,"text":"他的一個美意是說我們開這個班就是希望在偏遠地區已經待課很多年的老師可以趕快回來所以他的錄取一他是以服務年資為優先"},{"start":10505.018,"end":10522.968,"text":"所以你只要服務年資高的大概你就算書審成績比人家不好他可能也都可以錄取但是我們看到這時間失陪大學只有屏東大學呢他是把書審面試他有做加權計分"},{"start":10524.429,"end":10543.884,"text":"其他的九所呢就是幾乎年資高就可以錄取那這樣子讓很多人就會討論什麼呢那要我們送計畫書書面資料是為了走辛酸的嗎還是走一個表面的流程的嗎所以呢這個部分我相信我們看到"},{"start":10544.705,"end":10560.665,"text":"有這麼多的人來報名表示我們還是很有希望的很多的老師還是願意去取得證照去透過這樣的師培去偏鄉教書那我們只是希望說這個部分能夠去稍微做檢討"},{"start":10561.906,"end":10565.632,"text":"那另外呢 這個代理教師我們看到這個前兩年的數據出來他的離職率是高達57%而且呢 大多都是在3到5年內他就會離開 就會夭折"},{"start":10578.89,"end":10606.039,"text":"所以這個偏鄉學士後的學分班我覺得就是為了要協助這一群在偏鄉教學的主力讓他無證變有證所以這個部分我除了說我們應該教育部是不是來檢討帶大家來檢討之外那是不是去掌握我們偏鄉學士後這些學分班進修的資格人數那個部長請您來說明一下"},{"start":10608.243,"end":10621.393,"text":"謝謝委員的一個提醒確實如果只是按照年資我想應該有一個更像剛才舉例的屏東大學還加上一個這個書審對 加權幾分相對是比較適當的或者說應該以書審的成績為優先然後在書審成績相同的時候排序考慮年資進來我想這當然有許多的這個辦法標準我想我們內部再來"},{"start":10637.405,"end":10665.797,"text":"這個討論演繹那另外也跟委員報告我們我進來以後也希望這一個師師培育師裡面他們也開始在改變許多考慮如委員所說的偏鄉的老師代理老師他要白天或者晚上來這個師培單位大學裡面去進修教育學問那是不可能的所以我們現在開始折騰許多的理論性的課程是用線上來學習讓偏鄉的老師代理老師他在"},{"start":10666.457,"end":10687.541,"text":"他自己的學校裡他不需要下山出來到市區去接受教育那有一些實作的在安排在寒暑假類似這樣的一個課程上的一個設計我想我們都願意來做許多的一些努力希望能夠留住也同時能夠讓偏鄉老師能夠有一個更好的一個教學品質"},{"start":10688.621,"end":10713.86,"text":"謝謝部長我們最主要是看到教育部提出這個政策之後偏鄉學士候學分班從他的一個報名的情形來看我們感覺到是很樂觀很振奮的表示我們的偏鄉還是有人願意投入所以呢我們很珍惜這一塊的人所以特別希望教育部在這次招生結束後能夠去關心調查一下各校招生的錄取狀況"},{"start":10714.921,"end":10732.815,"text":"跟他的數據那我辦公室也很想了解那也希望說我們要網羅住這一些還有熱情投入的老師們那做一個精進的座談會廣納偏鄉這些第一線老師的意見那作為未來的政策的一個改善的依據好嗎"},{"start":10734.756,"end":10756.47,"text":"那另外我在你們的夜報也看到另外一個解方就是有提到說會提供一個就是語文領域本土語文原住民語文專長班招收25名那事實上這個也是有上新聞因為很多人關心為什麼因為他好不容易讀完了"},{"start":10757.429,"end":10773.601,"text":"取正了但是沒有縣市開缺也是讀辛酸的啦那像台東大學他們也是覺得很對孩子很不好意思那在這個部分呢其實我來了解的就是"},{"start":10774.622,"end":10797.776,"text":"其實是縣市政府不太理解 也不太喜歡開學因為像這種原住民 他叫作族語教師啦就是正式的老師 也不是代理教師 也不是族語專長教師他就是語文老師 正式的老師那問題是說 他現在他讀了四年 取得師培的這些學分"},{"start":10798.456,"end":10821.202,"text":"然後呢他要一年要考過高級族語認證一年內等於他花了五年取證結果呢沒有縣市政府開缺然後呢地方呢又希望說希望他們有第二專長尤其是國中所以他又要回頭去修第二專長然後呢好不容易花了幾年修完了又不確定有沒有人願意開缺"},{"start":10823.047,"end":10843.149,"text":"所以這種缺其實對地方政府來講我知道教育部 國教署都有去開過協調但是他們不知道這種缺因為他上不滿所以很多學校我們當然理解我們最終的目標就是希望學校的這些正式的一般教師他具備足語的能力"},{"start":10844.089,"end":10865.538,"text":"這是我們最高的目標那但是呢我們發現當他只有單一這樣的主語的一個教師的時候其實對學校來講他不太容易去開這個缺所以呢這個部分我也是在提醒說是不是再去做一個更完善的規劃希望這個部分要再了解來 部長"},{"start":10866.808,"end":10880.404,"text":"謝謝委員指教 確實今年取得主委認證的資格有七位那國教署也非常努力你們協調之後終於有一個學校開圈 大王國中目前也開了兩個圈 我想詳細的請彭主任補充說明"},{"start":10887.592,"end":10904.52,"text":"好 謝謝 署長請簡單用10秒跟您報告那今年經過協調本來都沒有開缺至少有兩個縣市有開缺那我想說它可能有合併那個技術還不是很成熟的問題所以它的結束可能在找合併的主辦學校或是整個縣市的簡章中的分類這些技術面的問題有今年的經驗之後明年應該會更好好 謝謝"},{"start":10910.623,"end":10931.699,"text":"所以這個政策面技術面希望能夠規劃好來那我還有一個問題就是你們的解方三就是促進在職教師留任有一個叫做資商輔導支持系統那因為我的時間也到我就快速講就是教育部有這個教師資商輔導支持中心那我不曉得是說你們有沒有掌握到"},{"start":10932.079,"end":10954.629,"text":"目前上路之後的使用率但是我們卻因為近幾年爛速的風氣校事會議造成很多的老師他們感受到壓力很大所以呢有很多老師他很希望來使用那這個支持中心他是在做媒合心理師那有一些老師是覺得說一年六次不夠用啦"},{"start":10954.969,"end":10976.601,"text":"希望能夠增加那我是覺得說增加到一次兩次變成七次八次都沒有關係但是至少要讓教師感受到教育部是支持的那不曉得部長對這個意見我想這個謝謝委員提醒我們確實國教署這邊我們樂觀其成我們也會支持那至於地方的部分我們會跟地方來溝通協調好"},{"start":10978.982,"end":10985.344,"text":"謝謝 那主席再給我一分鐘不好意思 我想要請教一下那個因為談到輔導諮商我想要請問那個張師大的一個輔導諮商所的一個問題那我簡單講因為談到這個輔導諮商我想不論是柴師大或張師大他們都是失陪體系所以讓我們覺得非常嚴重"},{"start":11000.347,"end":11026.64,"text":"第二個他們都是用學術做網子然後呢都有權威性而且是長期的問題那現在爆開來所以呢對我們來講這個教育部可能要去很審慎的來救一些部分重新去做檢討怎麼會讓一個輔導諮商的助人工作者有的變加害者有的變被害者我覺得這個是很諷刺的一個事情那現在因為有的是在"},{"start":11027.64,"end":11050.396,"text":"在校生有的是已經畢業生所以呢有的是用性騷防治法處理有的是用性平法處理但是呢像這個性騷我們看到他其實是一種權勢性騷可是彰化縣政府就只有裁罰三萬元所以這個部分我覺得有很多要討論然後在我們的性平法"},{"start":11050.996,"end":11066.163,"text":"跟這個性騷防治法中間的空窗漏洞我們如何讓每一個人都能夠被接住我想這個部分呢也是我們要去討論的那我現在是要救教育部的部分就是因為張師大呢"},{"start":11067.864,"end":11084.674,"text":"他可能在回應的方面沒有很積極他的態度是很消極所以導致呢學生還成立自救的一個救濟平台然後在這個救濟平台當中呢很多的me too就我也是我也是就發現了越來越多的老師"},{"start":11085.414,"end":11104.868,"text":"所以這是一個長期的一個問題所以呢我們就是特別希望說教育部要主動的還是要介入監督那包括像這個很多的事情發生之後最好的方法就是退休啊我就回家啦我可以避免遇到很多的問題那這個部分我們教育部要怎麼去設計老師的倫理規範然後呢包括這一些記錄性評的記錄那他的一個升等的聘任審查的機制那怎麼樣提供學校的一個支持系統"},{"start":11114.475,"end":11134.372,"text":"怎麼去要求學校我想這個都要全面的來討論那我們也希望能夠得到一個報告部長可以嗎可以好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員質詢 官員請回座我們接下來在吳佩奕委員之後休息五分鐘我們接下來有請吳佩奕委員進行質詢"},{"start":11148.598,"end":11150.481,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請教育部部長請部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":11160.241,"end":11183.774,"text":"最近我們教育界特別是大學校園醜聞百出令民眾都非常的擔憂那我想請教這個海科大爆發了說台積電因為有提供給我們海科大特教生的公讀金的機會結果現在爆發出海科大特教中心的蔡主任他要求我們特教系的學生"},{"start":11185.438,"end":11204.946,"text":"打工的這個公讀金要回捐一萬元要學生打工然後特教中心來收回扣這個事件爆發我看教育部也已經有注意到了我想要請問這個我們教育部目前打算怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":11207.196,"end":11223.301,"text":"跟委員報告我們已經組這個專案小組去調查了我們會組專案小組已經組專案小組去調查是這一個案件我們一定要好好的來關切因為他是還是特教生"},{"start":11224.501,"end":11241.76,"text":"還在特教中心那如果確實是要求學生回捐收回扣這個錢是誰拿走了是回到系上還是教授私人使用還是作為什麼使用這個目前我們有了解嗎你們組專案小組錢拿去哪裡了各位報告還在清查當中"},{"start":11247.874,"end":11276.292,"text":"還在清查清查是指你有很多案要了解它總體的流向我現在只問一個問題錢拿去哪裡了我們只是要判斷到底這樣說學校還沒回你們對這不用判斷吧錢拿去哪裡了校方到現在都答不出來嗎錢誰拿走了調查小組的資料還沒有回來這個都太慢了這個很簡單的一個事實釐清嘛你這個我不是要你一個完整的報告這個錢誰拿走了拿去哪裡"},{"start":11278.001,"end":11298.907,"text":"因為如果是確實挪用的話挪用侵佔這跟台師大那個案件類似這有刑法的問題喔這不是學校校內行政處理而已喔所以請你們務必了解好不好然後再來張師大的輔資系接連的爆發性平案件"},{"start":11300.266,"end":11313.094,"text":"現在目前已知的總共是四案第一案這個黃姓教授已經調查成立就性侵案成立再來第二案有一個張姓教授也是"},{"start":11314.85,"end":11337.032,"text":"張師大前副校長他是性騷案件也調查成立但是因為他是在校外因為學生畢業校友所以呢這個是在縣府來調查但是也成立了另外兩個案件同樣都是姓王的兩個教授兩個案件也是性騷案現在是在調查當中是不是是"},{"start":11338.516,"end":11353.095,"text":"那因為這些案子接連的發生所以有學生陸續開始出面來揭露所以他極有可能是在同一個時期當中所爆發的集體的"},{"start":11354.336,"end":11372.711,"text":"失對身權利不對等關係下的性平案件極有可能是這樣我們還在了解當中對不對但是我要請教的是因為這個張姓這個前副校長他的案件你們知不知道他是畢業的校友是什麼時候投訴的在113年去年9月就申訴了什麼時候調查成立"},{"start":11386.087,"end":11406.096,"text":"今年六月調查成立今年七月這個前副校長就馬上閃退申請退休那在這個案件發生之後才開始有其他的學生出來然後也才有後續兩個網信教授的性騷案件開始在調查"},{"start":11407.762,"end":11432.97,"text":"也就是說其實從這個校友第一次投訴去年九月到現在其實將近一年的時間了我希望教育部也可以去思考協助張師大一起來討論在這一年的過程當中我們有沒有可能提早來去發現倘若它是一個集體性的"},{"start":11435.185,"end":11444.023,"text":"教授在同一個系上在同一個系上對於學生有性騷同時還有性侵案件"},{"start":11445.151,"end":11467.802,"text":"我們有長達一年的時間我們有沒有可能提早發現那張師大在案發之後就前兩天發一個公開的聲明讓我覺得台師大跟張師大是不是有一個師大GBT這個聲明都很像他說呢因為這個調查的過程當中這個細上都不知情"},{"start":11469.332,"end":11482.859,"text":"因為呢 性平案件在校方調查校外案件在縣府調查所以張士大新府系 竟然說過程當中他們都不知情啊調查成立他們才知情部長你覺得合理嗎呃 無法想像要等到調查成立 系上才會知情部長你也覺得無法想像嗎所以這樣的聲明 我認為這就在包庇啊"},{"start":11499.54,"end":11515.912,"text":"應援的時間他們都不知情按照法規啊你有性侵案件在調查當中其實就可以開教評會不是嗎有沒有可能他在調查當中就可以來停聘了嘛對不對 按照法規是可以的所以系上不可能在調查過程當中不知情嘛系上 系方應該是要保護學生怎麼會屢屢的"},{"start":11526.5,"end":11555.387,"text":"怎麼會屢屢的都沒有辦法保護學生然後呢都卸責都說我們不知情要是我們可以更早知情我們就會好好保護學生好熟悉的話真的是這樣嗎是不知情還是包庇呢所以教育部現在也說對張師大你們也會來來進行調查嗎過程當中有沒有行政疏失是我希望不要輕輕放下"},{"start":11556.803,"end":11585.978,"text":"我們一定會有一個專業小組把它調查清楚在這調查過程當中這一年當中 系上完全不知情嗎 知情到什麼程度為什麼過程當中沒有主動來協助學生你說停聘 它有法規的要求我們都可以理解但是法規也有給我們工具可以停聘的不停聘"},{"start":11587.065,"end":11589.831,"text":"可以就算不停聘主動給學生提出"},{"start":11591.404,"end":11616.502,"text":"輔導的資源一年的時間都沒有做部長你也很難想像我也覺得很失望所以趕快來亡羊補牢當事人就馬上應該要先趕快來亡羊補牢好不好那現在我認為這個第一我們校方應該要提供一個單一的申訴機制不應該是再去網路上面去搜尋哪個學生今天說了什麼明天說了什麼"},{"start":11617.983,"end":11634.09,"text":"過去一年為什麼學生沒有主動向系上來投訴很有可能這個裡面已經有信任的問題了來一個單一的申訴機制第二個一定要來提供輔導的資源好不好好那最後呢這個台師大的案件"},{"start":11637.008,"end":11659.953,"text":"大家都很關心那我今天想要釐清兩件事第一個因為我們世代IRB的陳教授今天也有來現場嘛7月22的時候出席未還委員會立法院的這個公聽會他有指出三件事就是當時世代的IRB在審查的時候有三件事當時這個計畫主持人是隱匿沒有揭露的"},{"start":11660.493,"end":11674.484,"text":"第一個 這個研究的對象 當時計畫主持人說明的時候沒有說是私生關係第二個 當時來說明的時候也沒有提到這就是台師大女足隊所以不知道 或當時IRB委員會不知道這是學生第三個 當時來審查的時候是在計畫裡面是說會請有執照而且有經驗的人進行抽血"},{"start":11682.791,"end":11694.4,"text":"好 所以這三件事情當時是隱匿沒有揭露也就是說其實當時在計劃送繩的時候這 部長這可以說是用造假的資料來審查是不是這麼說我想至少他提供的資料審查委員既然可以不知道這是學生不知道這是女足隊隱匿就是造假嘛好 那我們現在確認這個事實嘛"},{"start":11711.584,"end":11733.539,"text":"當時計畫主持人用造假的資料來送審我們依照現行法規可以怎麼處置報告委員 這個分兩個部分它違反人體研究法的部分我們已經裁罰了對 我們教育部裁罰了那第二個部分如果真的有涉及到造假或者是研究經費的一個流向的問題我們也移送檢調在申辦當中了"},{"start":11735.196,"end":11743.461,"text":"好 那這個 因為目前校方有開教評會是針對周太英教授 教練來處置所以已經解聘那關於這個計畫主持人陳中慶教授有沒有開教評會"},{"start":11755.117,"end":11772.296,"text":"報告委員 學校有召開過教評會但是部裡頭在這邊也是認為說他們沒有就整個違反人體研究的部分想與究責所以我們在七月份的時候有退回學校請他們兩週內重審完畢之後再把結果報到部裡頭來"},{"start":11773.197,"end":11790.469,"text":"所以這個是幾號之前?台師大目前也正在開教評會當中正在開教評會按照教師法22條解聘或不續聘的條件包含了行為違反相關法規經查證屬實這個要召開教評會這個計畫違反人體研究法有沒有屬實?"},{"start":11798.482,"end":11823.855,"text":"報委員他確實違反了人體研究法當時IRB來送繩的時候使用了造假的資料目前已知有沒有屬實這個部分我們都確認說屬實這兩點都是已知屬實的雖然我們教育部這個IRB調查小組最終的這個結果還沒出來但這兩點都已知屬實所以按照教師法這個接下來的教評會我希望能夠公允的"},{"start":11829.433,"end":11836.597,"text":"來處置那教育部要來關心後續這教評會是校方開的嘛但我們要來關心後續不能夠以制度來去掩蓋"},{"start":11846.184,"end":11859.355,"text":"行為的疏失IRB的程序要檢討但是按照我們現行的我們有教師法我們有教評會程序你都已知違法的事件"},{"start":11861.034,"end":11881.28,"text":"這個IRB的後續的處置跟這一個教師是否適任就是兩件事情所以我希望教育部後續要持續的來關注希望讓我們國人對於台灣的高教可以重拾信心部長可不可以一定好 謝謝部長"},{"start":11887.162,"end":11890.566,"text":"謝謝吳佩奕委員 官員請回座我們接下來休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":12198.615,"end":12201.198,"text":"好 謝謝 我們會議繼續進行接下來有請郭育晴委員質詢好 有請部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":12223.083,"end":12247.081,"text":"好部長辛苦了我們今天是要來討論這個中小學的教室人力不足的一個問題那最近我的辦公室其實接到很多很多的陳情喔可以應該嚴格上有上百件都是跟校事會議有關那這一位呢是今天特別早上在我的臉書上留言的一位代理教師喔"},{"start":12247.561,"end":12267.396,"text":"那他因為被家長濫訴那不僅是要出席這個刑事的訴訟那同時呢還有這個校事會議那目前呢他身上還有兩個案子是沒有結果其實身心俱疲他還要準備可能自己本身的教學的教材等等那我想這個過程當中其實他們"},{"start":12269.497,"end":12289.17,"text":"除了前線的這些教師在跟我反映之外我覺得已經是達到了有求救這樣子的一個訊號那我想校師會議原本的好意其實是為了要維護學生的一個權益那要保障這個校園當中的一些秩序但是呢我們現在看到也許"},{"start":12291.171,"end":12307.828,"text":"過程或者是制度上的不夠清楚跟不夠公正也引起了在校園尤其是在教學端的寒蟬效應我想這個問題其實是非常值得我們一起來看怎麼樣能夠來往比較好的方向去解決"},{"start":12309.315,"end":12322.886,"text":"好那我想呢這個部分我們可以看到這個是從新聞的這個資料上面顯示喔那整體的一個案件是每一年都在增加但是呢最後能夠成案的大概只有2.6%但沒有具體事證的高達36%但還有"},{"start":12327.93,"end":12353.136,"text":"更在進行當中的也高達了百分之六十一點多那我想呢這個教學意見的不同親師的溝通有落差甚至呢只要一點點小小的事情只要有人申訴他可能就馬上會啟動所謂的這個校事會議那初步來講其實他是沒有所謂的分流的一個處理啦那甚至有老師直接在跟我們反應喔他說是不是因為這樣人心惶惶我其實就不敢再"},{"start":12356.517,"end":12379.659,"text":"我的這個整個教學的過程當中我不敢創新不敢嘗試甚至還有老師跟我們說難道我在教學的過程當中還要全程錄音自保嗎我想請教一下這個教育部我們有沒有可能在校事會議當中可以先初步的建立審查的機制那分不同的類型採取不同的分級的處理"},{"start":12382.639,"end":12408.826,"text":"跟委員報告他本來就是以學校就有一個先初步的一個審查但是因為學校確實因為整個這樣一個氛圍就讓學校變成所有的不管輕重或者是實與否就都先進入就直接進入到校事調查我想這也是我們這一年來校事會議裡邊我們這一年來收集到很多第一線上的不管校長老師"},{"start":12410.626,"end":12431.938,"text":"所以部長應該也覺得因為這樣一點點小小的爭議馬上就進入調查你也覺得不合理對吧所以我們現在也希望說能夠包含校事會議因為現在所有的審查都是等委託校外的這些專業的本來他是希望能夠秉持一個更公開但是因為對學校校長老師來講他會認為說有這些他們專業沒有錯但是對校"},{"start":12436.34,"end":12446.369,"text":"學校裡邊的真正的運作可能並沒有辦法掌握那麼的精準也就是說部長我們已經意識到就是學校第一線的老師跟我們反應的這些問題我們都已經我想我們現在希望能夠看收集更豐富的資料必要的時候我們去做一些調查"},{"start":12451.254,"end":12470.795,"text":"所有的內容跟問題其實都在反映第一線老師曾經反映過給我們的那我也會提出我的一些建議喔好 再來很多的調查在案件當中其實老師沒有被完整的告知到底他自己被指控的內容是什麼那甚至有人是到了現場才發現說我只有一個小時能夠越卷"},{"start":12471.275,"end":12493.338,"text":"同時在一個小時當中有時候他的資料他被調查的這些資料是去識別化甚至高達上百頁一個小時怎麼能夠吸收的了怎麼能夠看完這些所謂的這些被指控的一些內容那我們是不是能夠要求這個調查報告應該要完整的告知這個當事人才能夠保障"},{"start":12494.9,"end":12508.717,"text":"讓就是被申訴的這些老師他有一個答辯的準備或者是說他有閱覽的一個權利這個部分我們是不是可以來研擬增訂這樣子的一個部分提供給其他在學校第一現場的人"},{"start":12509.514,"end":12523.026,"text":"我想這是應該的因為任何一個民主法這個社會裡面我們本來就不希望延緩任何一個這個等於說他沒有犯錯你不應該要所以目前我們是沒有這樣子的一個機制對不對適當的這個"},{"start":12524.747,"end":12548.142,"text":"等於說他的權益應該要受維護我想這一個部分我們來看怎麼樣來在整個流程裡邊我剛才跟委員講了因為我們現在沒有落實那個初步的審查變成很多東西直接進到校舍也把學校中小學搞到人仰馬翻我想這我們一定要從流程裡邊看怎麼樣來建立一個共識有一個更好的一個分流的一個機制"},{"start":12548.442,"end":12577.601,"text":"那我們得到了這個部長的這個算是正面的一個回應了那接下來我想要問一下就是很多的學校的調查委員到底是怎麼產生的那有很多人跟我們反映說這個學校的這個調查的委員是校長指定甚至他會找自己的指導教授來當委員那有些老師甚至被不懂教學現場的律師或者是退休的校長來做審查甚至還有人他是教"},{"start":12578.902,"end":12596.077,"text":"國文的但是他卻要被地理老師來做審查您覺得這樣子合理嗎是不是可以有所謂的這個地方政府的教育局或者第三方的單位我們來進行所謂的抽籤選任建立利益迴避跟專業的認證機制這個您同意嗎"},{"start":12600.495,"end":12615.064,"text":"確實我們也發現有一些本來我們希望利益良善希望不要放縱也不要冤枉所以有一個更客觀的社會學者專家團體教育部也有這樣的一個事前委員的真人培訓"},{"start":12619.086,"end":12633.139,"text":"調查委員的pool是由地方縣市教育局他上網去篩選三到五倍的人選然後把這個人選名單再交給這個學校學校校長來挑三個"},{"start":12634.3,"end":12650.512,"text":"我想這個不可否認的其實在教學現場我們碰到的這些來跟我們申訴的這些老師他所看到的這些問題包含就是這些調查的委員形成一條龍的作業變成他們沒有任何的"},{"start":12651.412,"end":12669.397,"text":"所謂的利益的迴避的問題那等於就是說一直同樣的都是這一群人甚至他們也有一些是完全沒有所謂的法證訓練的然後甚至也沒有在學校擔任過教職經驗他也被納入在這個所謂的調查的委員當中"},{"start":12671.218,"end":12690.534,"text":"那我想這個部分其實我們應該要從制度面包含這個調查委員的資格那麼我想有很多的爭議喔不管是校事會議當中我們看到像是性評也好 霸凌也好學校有很多的部分在處理校事會議變成是球員兼裁判"},{"start":12691.255,"end":12703.654,"text":"那這個部分其實也難免就會流於讓很多的老師會覺得我自己今天要進入到校事會議要被調查的過程當中他感覺是被凌遲的這個您同意嗎"},{"start":12704.562,"end":12725.554,"text":"我想確實有一些案例我們也包含我個人也有一些老師直接把這個像我這個反應或者說投訴我們其實對一直在希望說這個制度裡面一定要看怎麼樣來修改一個真正無望物中的這樣的一個讓不好的老師我們什麼時候可以修改"},{"start":12726.842,"end":12745.341,"text":"剛剛我們講的這幾條什麼時候可以真的給前線老師一些實質上的一個幫助跟支持因為他們其實有的還是非常的有教學熱忱我們一直不斷的在講說不管是任何國中小現在的教師的缺額人力的不足的確也形成最大的一個問題其實最後影響的還是學生的受教權益"},{"start":12748.799,"end":12765.376,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想年底之前我們一定會有一個比較希望能夠更好的一個這個方向來修訂也就是說這一個它真的是造成已經造成第一線上的一些老師的工作士氣跟教協上的干擾"},{"start":12765.836,"end":12791.116,"text":"我們直接講到老師在被調查的期間我剛剛說了他可能還要備課他有的人還要兼任所謂的行政上的一個處理其實他的身心壓力是非常之大就像我剛剛第一頁就看到這位代理老師他的留言還有他有所謂的聘期不續還有資格取消等等這樣子的問題但是他在被調查的這些期間"},{"start":12795.439,"end":12813.9,"text":"他沒有任何的心理上的一個支持他甚至是孤立無援的你要他怎麼樣在教學現場繼續走下去我想請問一下部長有沒有考慮可以建立讓老師有一個教師支持的系統不管是法律上的協助心理上的輔導"},{"start":12814.801,"end":12840.804,"text":"行政上的一個資源我覺得如果老師最後他真的能夠證明他自己的清白甚至要有一個可以讓他回復的一個機制不要讓他們默默的去承受所謂的這些莫須有的罪名如果剛剛就像我們剛剛講的成案只有2.6%剩下還有百分之三十幾是完全沒有成案的我想老師的部分他真的會被嚴重的打擊他在教學現場的一個熱情"},{"start":12842.525,"end":12850.633,"text":"這個部分我們是不是可以也有這樣子的一個支持系統實質上來支持他們這個應該不用等到年底這應該馬上就可以做了吧我想這不用我想因為我們現在心理輔導的支持系統本來就可以有六次但是剛才也有委員關心我們可以提供到八次這是沒有問題的那法律的一個顧問裡邊我們也來跟地方這個教育"},{"start":12867.387,"end":12890.472,"text":"這個教育基礎來看怎麼樣來協助學校在真正進入到一些法律的一些諮詢跟一些協助我想今天因為是今天其實因為時間非常的有限喔那我再次強調校事會議它不是法庭它應該是要幫助學校去釐清一些問題能夠我想制度其實不是只是在強調處罰啦"},{"start":12891.912,"end":12911.548,"text":"也應該要有一個對話跟修復的空間讓老師能夠找回他們在教學上的熱情跟信心對學校的一個信任那我想親師之間的一個溝通那也是非常非常的重要那我最後呼籲幾點我們就往這個方向來做好不好我想我們應該要建立所謂的分級的制度"},{"start":12912.068,"end":12941.08,"text":"那是不是要提高提高所謂的啟動校事會議的門檻適度的提高不要一點點的小小的事情就讓老師真的陷入到其中他真的會身心俱疲第二點就是我們怎麼樣保障就是被校事會議調查的這些老師們他們知情跟答辯的權利再來第三點是怎麼樣健全調查委員的選任還有培訓的一個制度我想這個也是由第三方要非常的公正才能夠"},{"start":12942.1,"end":12965.913,"text":"讓老師能夠獲得這個清白或者是他要自證我想這個才是有幫助的那再來第四點我們是怎麼樣來推動第三方的審議的單位第五點設立教師支持跟法律援助的體系我想這一點我們第五點可以馬上就做我們讓整個所有的制度可以更明確程序可以更公平那對老師來講我們想學校是要讓老師能夠留下來是要讓老師可以教"},{"start":12970.475,"end":12995.286,"text":"他能夠教甚至他敢教學的地方我想這個部長您應該要同意吧謝謝委員的這個意見我想都是非常寶貴這些東西我相信對未來的這個校式會議的一個處理一定有非常高的一個價值好我們給更多的老師更多的支持因為最後還是因為學生的受教權益才是最重要的一部分好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12999.622,"end":13017.154,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員 官員請回座那待會我們在范雲委員結束質詢之後我們進行臨時提案的處理那同時也因為接近用餐時間不過因為也許我們就如果有血糖或者是其他的原因有必要的可以個人"},{"start":13017.834,"end":13039.594,"text":"进行私下用餐那因为今天的议题我想非常这个相对的很严肃啦我们就希望说这个会场尽可能的保持对委员跟官员的尊重那我们就尽量如果有用餐的状况的话可能私下或者这个这个音量或状态请麻烦控制一下那我们接下来有请范云委员咨询"},{"start":13044.012,"end":13053.845,"text":"謝謝昭偉有請政部長 國科會蘇副主委 還有衛福部是劉司長嗎三月官員請備質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":13059.209,"end":13062.131,"text":"等一下我這個投影片是不是有點問題下一頁部長午安7月15號我參與召開的記者會揭露施大女竹案強迫抽血強迫實驗卻被輕放的體育亂象那半個多月來到現在有關校園霸凌的部分"},{"start":13081.287,"end":13101.619,"text":"師大已經重新完成校園霸凌的審議那研究倫理的部分你們現在是有教育部主持的跨部會專案小組決議清查中那今天因為這個涉及到教育部國科會跟衛福部所以我現在要跟幾位釐清一下研究倫理的部分"},{"start":13103.82,"end":13128.248,"text":"我們來看一下陳中慶跟周太英涉及的案件有三種第一個是國科會計劃第二個是體育署補助的運科支援計劃第三個是其他自提的或產學計劃那我們可以看到第一個跟第三個都有處理第一個國科會的計劃今天給我們看到他針對所有的體育相關的計劃全面清查614個案子體育"},{"start":13132.769,"end":13149.729,"text":"涉及人體的有293件那他們優先處理成州兩人30件裡面抽血28件所以國科會以我來看是有在亡羊補牢全面清查啦可是現在有疑問的是第三個也處理了"},{"start":13150.45,"end":13166.79,"text":"第二個部分體育署的運科資源計劃只有處理涉及血液樣本的計劃那這是目前我們看到的情況那我也要講一下就是7月20我詢問體育署"},{"start":13169.753,"end":13183.043,"text":"我要求7月21號我發函要求體育署全面清查所有運科資源的計畫是不是有違反人體研究法可是呢這邊我弄的這個文是體育署回覆的7月29號體育署回覆我說"},{"start":13185.865,"end":13207.666,"text":"因為7月21號那個跨部會的指示所以只有清查這個運科下面運用血液樣本的就這兩位教授下面運用血液樣本的所以體育署是拿教育部的跨部會的結果不理會立委的要求這件事情部長您知情嗎"},{"start":13209.191,"end":13232.563,"text":"國科會全面清查體育相關的所有的計畫六百多案部長您知道嗎體育署拿你們那天跨部會的會議說不需要全面清查只要清查周成兩位用的血液樣本的研究結果部長您知情嗎跟委員報告當時我在這個世界大學運動會我在這個德國的時候我已經馬上聽到"},{"start":13236.805,"end":13253.493,"text":"這個四大女主案這個我已經當下就要求這個運科中心所有有關人體的實驗相關研究全面停止全面清查所以你有要求全面清查所以體育署發文回應我說不用全面清查您不知道"},{"start":13254.593,"end":13282.54,"text":"等一下 那個我們委員部長所以您不知道體育署發函給我說只要清查陳舟兩位教授涉及血液樣本的其他都不用清查而且還拿出你們的會議 結論說是因為那個跨部會的會議因為跨部會有衛福部在嘛所以體育署你要不要解釋一下為什麼運科資源那個部分只要清查血液樣本 舟陳兩位教授的血液樣本的計畫"},{"start":13283.22,"end":13295.07,"text":"包委員我想這個是我們在跟委辦溝通之間我們大概認知上有一個落差啦我們全部都有清查不是只有學藝樣本的不是只有學藝樣本等一下那你給我的公文是在是在呼嚨我嗎我們以為委辦的這部分的是根據7月21日是指陳中慶那你要不要先告訴我你給我的本辦的公文你看過嗎"},{"start":13308.962,"end":13319.032,"text":"呃有看過那你裡面是怎麼說運科資源計畫不用清查的包委員我們是全面清查但是針對不是你有清查的話三天之內把東西給我喔沒問題"},{"start":13324.738,"end":13342.636,"text":"因為你上次已經在我問就是舉重選手的時候當場說謊然後我去跟你所知好久好久都不給最後的資料證明你說謊那件事情我先不追究那我追究的這件事情你給我的運科資源計畫你公文要我現在拿給你還是我們現在給大家看"},{"start":13343.797,"end":13346.318,"text":"你的公文要不要我幫你念一下我們在回覆委辦的部分我們對要需要回覆給委辦的這個認知上我們的確是有落差我們不要講文字遊戲我們看公文你現在講的我已經不相信你了我念一下你給我的公文說院科資源競技運動訓練屬服"},{"start":13363.782,"end":13387.087,"text":"以競技選手和運動團隊為服務對象主要的目的是提升選手的訓練品質運動表現不作為學術研究對象主要的目的是提升選手的訓練品質運動表現不涉及學術發表或發展新醫療技術屬於運動訓練而非人體研究所以最後就說這個東西不屬於人體研究法"},{"start":13388.447,"end":13414.424,"text":"我就是問你這個計畫是不是屬於人體研究法你跟我說他不涉及研究是服務選手也沒有出版我不管你有沒有清查我懷疑你現在講的事情是真的你給我的功能是這樣而且拿部長的跨部會我看到那個會議紀錄完全沒有討論到你也沒有提出來說運科計畫也沒有問衛福部就是說到底這是不是適用人體研究法"},{"start":13414.744,"end":13425.33,"text":"你給我的公文就說這個不是研究沒有出版所以不是人體研究法規範範圍那我今天有四個證據說它根本就是人體研究第一個你們運科資源計畫的簡報你們自己的給所有要申請人辦的簡報的PPT"},{"start":13436.977,"end":13442.681,"text":"比較科技部教育部高教師教育部體育署告訴大家這裡比較好申請因為國科會那裡體育老師比較難申請到下面就寫適合申請研究訓練導向效果應用實務升等評鑑還告訴大家這個可以把教學成果跟個人升等"},{"start":13458.793,"end":13472.666,"text":"請問體育領域的教師誰要升等就是老師大學教授升等不就是等於鼓勵他用他的學生來做這些體育研究嗎這第一個這就講是研究跟你給我的公文不符合好"},{"start":13473.266,"end":13490.257,"text":"這位陳中慶現在鼎鼎大名就申請你們的東西你們跟我們說他沒有做出版剛剛你回答柯之恩教授怎麼回答的你說是這個運科計畫沒有再做出版是陳教授自己拿去發表違背運科計畫的宗旨我要講你又當場是說錯還是說謊"},{"start":13496.441,"end":13501.483,"text":"人家給你們的計畫裡面一開始最後一點本計畫的結果並透過投稿參加國際相關研討會發表國際期間發表這是給你們的預期這個我都寫過的這種研究計畫預期成果欸109年得到你們45萬欸體育署早就知道他有發表剛剛跟柯之恩說是陳教授個人違反你們這個計畫你剛剛不是跟柯之恩說謊要不然就是你就是沒有能力知道你們體育署內部的狀況嗎"},{"start":13526.05,"end":13555.23,"text":"好 等一下你先聽我講完計畫名稱來看你給我的公文說這不是研究各位在座有很多當過研究生拿過博士學位你也是博士學位這裡面的確部分計畫是進行賽後技術分析下面這個介入對青少年跆拳道好 周教授這邊又有一個強化訓練女足選手這個因為不是血液你也不清查下面這個介入少棒選手介入"},{"start":13556.832,"end":13565.409,"text":"衛福部人體計畫相關的法介入就是針對人體的身心理就是這是在下一個下一頁"},{"start":13567.426,"end":13590.763,"text":"下一頁這個為什麼下一頁不出來下一頁下一頁陳中慶就是這位他給你們的計畫書有分組實驗實驗組對照組有人要做一個離心組的什麼肌肉訓練然後有研究假設而且是在會影響選手生理對肌肉傷害的效果這麼明確有分組實驗這不就是實驗法比較組對照組看"},{"start":13596.226,"end":13619.313,"text":"傷害運動表現受傷的情況的差異這個不是人體實驗好這是第四個證據來衛福部可不可以過來一下衛福部您是司長嘛這個人體研究法是你們管請問你有介入有分組實驗會影響選手生理表現的是否不適用人體研究法"},{"start":13621.849,"end":13635.756,"text":"就目前看到有介入分組實驗然後還有再去講的是那個影響的那些因子的話他是做人體研究所以就適用人體研究法嗎那你請回國科會"},{"start":13637.897,"end":13658.383,"text":"國科會副主委你應該很熟這些計畫可不可以不接受可不可以不受人體研究法規範不申請IRB跟REC審查包委員不行絕對不行嘛國科會所有人都知道嘛這個法已經通過十幾年了所以這一類型的您聽到了一定要有IRB一定要有REC對不對"},{"start":13659.443,"end":13672.613,"text":"好那部長我簡單問您我想您一定很知道作為高教出身這種介入可不可以不經倫理審查就執行不行好不行那我再往下一頁我要告訴大家為什麼這個運科計畫全面清查很重要不是只有血液有問題我們再繼續看下一頁這個是你們的運動計畫的申請的"},{"start":13689.383,"end":13704.571,"text":"表裡面的授冊對象跟我們國科會不一樣欸都知道是誰欸訪寮高中女子排球隊好 我們往下看台師大女足也有不是血液的 是其他的 肌肉的國小棒球隊女高中女籃"},{"start":13706.133,"end":13722.136,"text":"這是未成年選手而且他們都是我們的體育學生他申請的時候就綁定受試者這完全沒有監督機制你們的訪評是沒有效果的針對未成年衛福部就知道是特別脆弱的"},{"start":13722.977,"end":13738.922,"text":"就是說是一定要絕對要送IRB的然後我們都還沒有提到裡面的權勢關係是計畫主持人跟教練很好嗎這個全部都是就是說可能很有問題的居然你不清查你剛剛說有清查三天之內請你送給我下一頁我要講的事情是"},{"start":13743.12,"end":13761.622,"text":"你們的審查委員開的會前面就說不是不知道IRB耶好110年討論到有關IRB或REC雖不強制要求計劃申請但必要取得好這個是比較舊以前署長說這跟你無關好112年署長是你當署長吧"},{"start":13762.887,"end":13767.21,"text":"臨時動議提案有關本計劃申請需IRB案委員要求要討論委員都知道這跟IRB有關結果決議是什麼因申請本計劃IRB非強制規定但未符合未來趨勢法都通過了還有未來趨勢請本計劃主持人先行與體育署溝通未來慢慢推行"},{"start":13786.681,"end":13805.811,"text":"萬萬推行為什麼這件事要跟體育署溝通要求送審要不要送IRB要跟體育署溝通溝通到現在直到出事了告訴我有清查是體育署內長期反彈擔心一清查就沒有人過得了關嗎在下一頁所以我今天就三個要求第一個"},{"start":13807.327,"end":13821.568,"text":"申請的時候就綁定受試者這些運動選手是否有強迫受試情形大量未成年參與是否應該取得監護人同意這一整塊教育部下面的體育署"},{"start":13822.449,"end":13842.223,"text":"公文都還跟我跟妳現在講的不一樣公文跟我說這不符合人理現在妳告訴我妳有清查我要相信妳的公文還是相信妳現在講的話要求專案小組全面清查過往及現在執行的運科支援計畫那兩位周誠還有很多非協議的運科支援計畫還有其他的小學生的下一頁"},{"start":13844.963,"end":13861.949,"text":"第二點教育部要跟衛福部合作院科資源計畫下面都是運動選手學生你的審查機制跟流程而且我要講的事情我們跟你要報告因為依照你這個教育部運動發展基金會的給錢要點第17條運動報告成果要上網沒有一個上網我們跟你要拿不出半個報告給我我們國會哪個不是都要上網的"},{"start":13872.153,"end":13889.013,"text":"那如果早點上網這兩位的周成兩位也有申請他的這個事情不就早就更早能夠報出來嗎所以這個第二點要求第三點教育部請監督體育署體育署居然給我們這種公文剛剛部長都說這個當然是是說是"},{"start":13891.576,"end":13916.881,"text":"人體研究法他居然可以獨排眾議也不用詢問衛福部會議也不提出來就自己跟我說這個沒有研究這個沒有出版剛剛講的他們內部都知道我真的覺得到現在還有澄清人跟我們說他們沒有辦法站出來這涉及到選手的評估建立第三方公正之運動選手受試者保護中心"},{"start":13918.101,"end":13921.584,"text":"回來講 我要先講 我認為運科這個部分它真的宗旨很好 也的確的協助不少選手但是不代表可以是法外之地傷害選手不考慮他們在教練跟主持人的權勢合作下沒有說不的權利所以請教育部監督體育署 衛福部"},{"start":13942.9,"end":13956.865,"text":"這三項一個月內處理並向本席書名報告為什麼是一個月不要告訴我說運動部要成立了還有一個月距離運動部9月9號成立前今天8月8號剛好有一個月"},{"start":13957.805,"end":13975.247,"text":"你們體育署出的樓子人家國科會亡羊補牢 你亡羊還不補牢是不是在遮蔽 是不是在包庇你那個院科資源計畫的管理人剛剛告訴大家說喔 這裡喔 來申請就是你 請問您是哪個大學出來的署長"},{"start":13976.363,"end":14000.479,"text":"包委員我是國立體育大學那他也是國立體育大學我不知道為什麼他到現在都沒出來吹哨我也覺得很奇怪他們心知肚明會議中還討論了IRB還說慢慢跟體育署你不用跟我講了上次你在台上說謊我還沒有跟你追究後來要了兩三禮拜都不給所資然後把責任推給別人那今天部長我要的是部長"},{"start":14001.34,"end":14006.192,"text":"部長一個月內可以處理並向本席書面報告嗎在提部成立前教育部要把這個這個破的洞好好的補給才能對大家交代"},{"start":14011.732,"end":14030.721,"text":"可以跟委員補充報告我們現在運科的所有的研究現在是全面停止執行我們一定要全面的來停止執行可是他給我的公文要不要我等一下給部長一份看看我想委員剛才的這個停止執行三項我們非常清楚我一定會來"},{"start":14034.042,"end":14058.185,"text":"部長最嚴重的事情是因為有博士的在教育部下的這些計畫都沒有要求強制做IRB剛剛師大在這裡那個是做了IRB通過之後執行出問題對不對沒有遵守申請所以連申請都沒有申請衛福部聽到能接受嗎這麼多未成年申請的時候就知道是未成年的體育選手"},{"start":14059.486,"end":14065.71,"text":"這我想我們來改善這都是脆弱族群因為IRB一個很重要的因素是當事人一定要同意不是改善了這個嚴重很大人家審查委員都說應該要了結果結論居然是說請他們跟體育署慢慢好好討論我不知道體育署內部是出了什麼問題可以這樣子做那就一個月內處理跟本席書面報告好嗎可以謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":14089.496,"end":14111.231,"text":"謝謝范雲委員的諮詢 官員請回座那我們現在先處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案共計議案 請宣讀臨時提案為因應人工智慧科技快速發展提升我國青少年AI素養與應用能力請政府積極推動高中生AI"},{"start":14112.13,"end":14129.456,"text":"工技普及語教學作為我國培育未來AI應用人才的關鍵基礎並朝向打造台灣為全球最會使用AI的國家的政策目標努力請教育部會同國家科學及技術委員會數位發展部及其他相關機關於三個月內"},{"start":14131.417,"end":14149.75,"text":"完成高中階段AI教育推動成效評估學校數位落差影響評估以及AI素養學習指引並將相關內容公開發布以作為後續政策調整與資源配置依據另請教育部研議建立常設性推動小組"},{"start":14152.131,"end":14179.417,"text":"負責規劃高中階段AI工具與教學資源的長期推動機制持續提升AI教育內容之實務應用性與實距進性並確保偏鄉與資源不足學校之可進性以落實教育公平強化青少年之數位韌性與未來競爭力提案人葛如君 葉元之 萬美玲 羅廷偉 劉淑冰宣讀完畢"},{"start":14181.121,"end":14185.441,"text":"好 謝謝請問提案委員或各位委員有無補充說明或意見"},{"start":14186.903,"end":14211.462,"text":"好那请问部长有无补充说明谢谢委员这一个的提案我想三个月内在有关这个高中阶段AI的成效评估跟数位落差影响评估我们在实现内可以完成那另外AI素养学习之后这个是不是能够给予一个比较宽裕的时间就在年底前完成"},{"start":14212.522,"end":14235.018,"text":"就是說三項的一個這個內容的公佈是不是讓我們在AI素養學習指引加六個字於年底前完成就這樣一個補充好謝謝部長那我想這個如果委員沒有問題的話我們就照修正意見通過"},{"start":14237.23,"end":14247.259,"text":"那各提案如果有委員補簽 請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄那我們接著繼續質詢有請李昆成委員質詢時間4分鐘謝謝主席 我們請鄭部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14265.219,"end":14281.357,"text":"委員好來部長好辛苦了那我還是要先請教一下我們的這一個次長葉秉成今天早上你有接受記者的訪問你說啦葉秉成受調查請假達72天說這也是你的痛那我先請教一下這一個"},{"start":14284.82,"end":14310.82,"text":"這個姓平委員會是在5月21號成立這個專案的審查小組那葉次長在5月26號請假接受調查那現在已經延就是說兩個月到期之後有再延一個月那我想請教一下部長就是說這段時間那到底我們的這一個這個專案審查小組有開過幾次會了總共六次總共開過六次那是那個時間你再給我好嗎"},{"start":14315.014,"end":14330.658,"text":"那現在就是說會再延到8月22號那8月22號算是Deadline嘛對不對是那Deadline就是8月22號之前一定會有個結果出來是那請教一下那個部長您說這是您的痛那為什麼這個是您的痛勒"},{"start":14335.182,"end":14364.3,"text":"我想一切當然民主法治的社會就是按照法令嘛所以我們當然希望能夠把它查清楚那只是從一個政務上的推動我當然會希望本來這個案情就是要依法來但是如果能夠有一些時效上能夠我想社會大眾也一直關心嘛但是回到源頭就是說因為調查小組跟調查性評委員會他們確實需要有許多東西許多的情節必須要更"},{"start":14365.12,"end":14389.31,"text":"更年輕然後造成社會上的一些一些胡同或者甚至一些不諒解這其實就是對我來講是一個滿大的壓力因為這個是社會矚目要牽涉到市長那我也當然知道說教育部有要做一些迴避但是我自己認為當然一切依法進行按照程序來但是我也認為超過兩個月的時間太久了"},{"start":14391.547,"end":14405.782,"text":"太久了因為這件事情事發的時候不論是部長或是說院長都認為說這件事情要盡快調查出來那我不知道說這個過程是哪一端這個問題是怎麼樣那但是我個人認為這個"},{"start":14408.185,"end":14421.886,"text":"兩個月的時間甚至現在要到三個月的時間這其實對教育部的形象來講是一個傷害我覺得說部長這邊大概也要考量一下因為我也看到這一個當事人他也說這個在7月12號"},{"start":14423.688,"end":14448.903,"text":"要延期的時候他是最後一個他才知道他打電話去問他才知道的那他說這個教育部延期調查他自己完全被蒙在鼓裡他說這個痛他也很痛我是希望說這個部長能夠用同理心來對待這件事情你覺得很痛當事人也覺得很痛那我覺得在程序上面不曉得出了什麼樣的問題讓當事人會有這種感受"},{"start":14452.38,"end":14472.153,"text":"其實我對學生是相當不捨我覺得我們沒有好好的協助他走出來或者學校在處理過程在行政上還有許多可以精進的我想這都應該要來改善那這裡邊會後來又原來是上個月"},{"start":14475.807,"end":14496.447,"text":"28號就要有一個希望能夠有一個結果的同時事實上是姓評委員認為還有很多地方需要擬清包含當事人的一個約談而不是只是這個提供書面資料所以我想我們這個部分就尊重姓評委員他們也希望"},{"start":14498.328,"end":14524.275,"text":"這個調查小組能夠有更細緻的一些調查也希望能夠真正的對每一個當事人利害關係人都能夠有一個我覺得調查是一件事情但是你要去接觸這一個當事人這個受害人後續也很重要我覺得這一塊你們要去做好時間到我最後再問一下我們9月9號這個體育部要掛牌"},{"start":14525.305,"end":14537.822,"text":"是不是 那掛牌的地點在哪裡台大 台大的體育館那我們以後的辦公室在哪裡以後的辦公室是在那一個"},{"start":14541.635,"end":14557.125,"text":"我們本部會在現在的體育大樓全民運動署跟產業科技師會在六張梨站旁邊有一個辦公大樓在那邊租用但是掛牌是在台大掛牌的儀式在台大"},{"start":14558.045,"end":14579.432,"text":"好 OK 那這個也預祝啦這個我也不知道部長是誰啦預祝掛牌順利那我剛才講那一個受害者當事人如何去接觸我覺得那是在程序之外我們教育部剛要去做的事情啦好 謝謝謝謝委員提醒 謝謝謝謝李坤城委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請黃婕委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":14588.49,"end":14588.51,"text":"請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14595.945,"end":14624.152,"text":"好部長好今天時間很短但是這個兩週之前我們發生的高教裡面國際的學術醜聞這件事情我認為有必要追蹤下去因為其實我看到的時候真的非常非常的震驚就是台師大的抽血案這件事情雖然簡同學他要的很簡單他說他要的只是周老師跟台師大的一個道歉那他最後也獲得了這個道歉但是他獲得道歉之後還有很多真相還沒有釐清啊"},{"start":14625.239,"end":14638.275,"text":"接下來釐清真相這件事情我相信是最重要的所以這個腳步我們絕對不能停下來那昨天我看到最新的消息是接下來會有三個學校裡面有14案正在清查是嗎是的那其實就像剛剛范議員講的我今天來這邊也是想問其實不只這14案啊"},{"start":14643.001,"end":14663.435,"text":"你們說這個十四案是因為有收到學生的陳情有人檢舉所以你們介入處理但是其他相關的包括運科資源計畫底下的兩百多個案子包括這個周老師跟這個陳慶忠教授陳忠慶教授底下涉及血液樣本的二十九個案子其實都應該要清查才對啊都應該要清查才對啊為什麼有人檢舉才處理"},{"start":14669.43,"end":14684.002,"text":"我想跟我們報告就是說我們現階段當然這個直接的這個事件的關係我們優先處理但是我們事實上也全面的希望能夠再有一個這一個相關的一些一個檢核"},{"start":14685.243,"end":14688.606,"text":"所以全面清查很重要我再講一次全面清查很重要為什麼呢因為剛剛也有提到有一些明明就很明顯涉及人體試驗法可是你們竟然沒有需要申請IRB這件事情何等嚴重"},{"start":14703.34,"end":14717.434,"text":"那甚至从这个两个周两周之前我们在问的这一些案子里面这个周老师涉及的案子里面到现在这一些协议的样本写用在哪里没有人告诉我们耶甚至学生的名单都对不起来耶"},{"start":14722.253,"end":14739.389,"text":"這些事情難道不嚴重嗎為什麼到現在都沒有一個人給社會一個交代我們做研究是可以這樣做的嗎這些事情不是都要按部就班的嗎甚至申請IRB或是REC這一些倫理工作都是做研究最基本最基本要做的事情"},{"start":14740.22,"end":14769.201,"text":"是 謝謝委員我們在7月21號組成跨部會專案小組之後就分三個層面來清查第一個是全面的清查成州兩位老師是那針對有特別總共幾案目前國科會跟相關部體育署回報給我們的大概有三十幾案涉及到從他任教以來民國九十年的案子那裡頭針對有特別同學或者是檢舉人特別有檢舉的事"},{"start":14769.821,"end":14786.184,"text":"只有14案嗎14案的部分我們是實地查訪可是剛剛有報告的全面清查的部分我們已經請各個學校相關的IRB要在8月8號之前把他們的清查結果報教育部所以這個部分是有同步在進行的"},{"start":14786.624,"end":14809.598,"text":"好那這個拜託我剛剛講的第一個這些案子裡面到底血用在哪裡啊怎麼會到現在叫學生抽血然後這些血沒有用在應該要核實的這個計劃裡面這件事情拜託一定要優先處理好嗎另外就是IRB這個我特別把當時台師大的倫理審查委員會裡面的會議記錄找出來因為我覺得太荒謬了"},{"start":14814.98,"end":14824.407,"text":"一片空白會議記錄是一片空白然後呢這個主席然後所有出席的委員有沒有意見沒有意見全數通過我光是看到這個RB的審查過程我覺得不可思議可以長這樣嗎"},{"start":14833.894,"end":14858.263,"text":"我不知道是真的流於形式還是像你們說的他們有隱匿的情況就算他們送假的資料都還是有很多預防的機會才對啊因為我必須要說其實這個研究案我有看到有另外一個子計畫裡面有納入一家其他一個大學的醫學中心然後這個醫學中心的IRB在審查本案的時候認為教授收案只屬學生"},{"start":14859.343,"end":14887.041,"text":"不知道能不能確保學生的自主同意所以他們提出了質疑最後他們怎麼做他們把這個案子撤掉了也就是說有其他學校針對同一個研究案的IRB在審查過程他們有發現問題然後他們選擇撤案因為他們知道這個在IRB上很可能是不會過的結果台師大過了所以我覺得台師大IRB中心是不是應該出來面對出來檢討"},{"start":14889.584,"end":14891.411,"text":"這件事情非常嚴重"},{"start":14896.442,"end":14921.861,"text":"報告委員確實我們現在除了昨天有專案到台師大去做訪查之外我們也從7月1號開始停止台師大的一個新修理的新案我們要他齊具相關的檢討報告之後我們會再提我們教育部的IRB再好好的檢視一次這部分我們會遵守人體研究法的相關規定來檢視台師大的一個整個IRB的運作機制"},{"start":14922.421,"end":14925.402,"text":"好 當然你們剛剛也說該開罰你們也開罰了該送刑事責任的你們也送了有一些造假的有一些違法的部分你們都已經在處理了但是我很怕這個是體育界裡面的陋習我最怕的是這件事情他們覺得不需要送但明明涉及很多未成年"},{"start":14943.928,"end":14951.84,"text":"甚至是學生甚至他們長期以來在全市的文化裡面長期慣性的把學生當成試驗的對象"},{"start":14954.128,"end":14976.09,"text":"這是我最擔心的所以不要讓IRB變成只是橡皮圖這樣更不能變成是形同虛設的一個單位它要實際進到實質審查的功能這個拜託這個是教育部現在最重要最重要的責任不要讓國際上覺得哇台灣在做研究我們的高校環境是如此的糟糕"},{"start":14977.732,"end":14992.69,"text":"連這種基本的把關都做不到好 然後最後我本來要提一個臨時提案但是礙於時間我直接講就是我跟體育署也討論過了就是在單項協會裡面應該要有反霸凌教育這件事情因為我也很擔心說在"},{"start":14993.711,"end":15001.837,"text":"體育界裡面長期有一些基本的這種對於權勢的不認知或者是他們對於霸凌文化的認識不夠深導致於說他們把這種壓迫的行為一代又一代的傳下去覺得說鐵血教育是對的覺得說我就是老師學生體育的學生對我就只有絕對的服從絕對不是這樣嘛"},{"start":15016.107,"end":15036.322,"text":"所以這種文化一定要改善那也希望可以徹底的淘汰這種權勢的霸凌行為所以我也希望在這邊具體建議教育部體育署接下來所有該上這種反霸凌教育的對象教練然後所有的體育環境裡面的作為師長的都應該要有這樣的認識好嗎好 這個拜託你們 謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員的質詢 官員請回座"},{"start":15046.459,"end":15049.34,"text":"好那我們接下來有請羅廷偉委員質詢好謝謝趙偉有請部長體育署署長好請部長請署長備質詢謝謝"},{"start":15067.52,"end":15089.126,"text":"部長好我想台師大這個風暴擴大那也有新聞在不斷的爆料出來有很多的一些像跆拳道的校友也自曝自己抽血過我想很多的這些相關的關鍵我們都非常關切所以今天所有的委員都非常關心此類案件到底後續的一個追蹤"},{"start":15090.026,"end":15101.182,"text":"但是也有幾個問題想另外就教請問一下我想體育是要很多的地方需要我們再來幫忙協助的先請問一下台灣雙職籃合併現在確定破局"},{"start":15105.066,"end":15119.061,"text":"署長有掌握嗎是的那我想講的是說你們後續有沒有後續的追蹤包委員其實我跟兩邊的負責的人都有一些都有見面又有在了解他們的狀況不過兩個聯盟說實在他們的差距會很大嗎"},{"start":15123.988,"end":15138.881,"text":"不小在經營的理念上面差距不小但我認為是這樣子還是要多收集一些相關的資料那你也應該要多跟產業人士多溝通我想我們也有很多的大前輩在籃球界"},{"start":15139.261,"end":15161.128,"text":"是不是有辦法繼續的去磨合那我要分享是說網路有一些相關的文字我們也可以去做查詢他們有分享到日本整合成功的一個關鍵因素政府跟FIBA介入行程改革的壓力那FIBA他們現在是當時是直接對於日本藍鞋實施競賽的處分"},{"start":15162.808,"end":15188.2,"text":"迫使JBA必須要放棄舊有的模式接受改革那我相信當時政府他們也一定會給予相關的資源讓整併不僅是體育的一個問題更上升到國家還有他們國家是怎麼樣的一個期待我想未來體育部要出來我們這個部分能不能合併攔血那這個 對不起不是攔血 直攔"},{"start":15189.726,"end":15210.478,"text":"這個是很多的球迷期待的我希望說你們要有更大的魄力如果過程會痛但是結果是甜美的我想你應該要繼續努力署長你覺得呢包委員那你剛剛說的沒有錯FIBA的部分的確針對每個地區每個國家的籃球職業聯盟都有一些他的一些做法規範"},{"start":15211.243,"end":15233.374,"text":"那這部分我要跟藍鞋再來研究看看可以怎麼樣來協助這兩個是不是對嘛去研究一下然後甚至是就教於這個前面的一些狀況是不是有一些例子可循啊或者是能夠找一些外部資源幫忙協助這部分我希望你能夠再更加的積極那部長我想再請教幾個問題喔營養午餐法什麼時候可以送立法院審查"},{"start":15235.365,"end":15252.213,"text":"3月20日說要持續跟地方政府溝通目前的狀況如何最棘手最分歧的有哪些跟委員說明一下委員的關心我們持續進行在下一週我們會找幾個縣市先行諮詢但是之前跟委員講"},{"start":15257.168,"end":15284.148,"text":"下一周之前跟委員報告的是有幾個議題它因為受財化法的影響比較深財化法的方向現在還沒有很明確所以我們先用諮詢不要耽誤時間所以確定的時候全縣市召開決策的會議所以現在先啟動諮詢第二點剛剛委員問到項目第一個是收費第二個是人第三個是偏鄉大概是這幾個課題還需要持續當然中間每一項都會涉及到財源的配置謝謝"},{"start":15285.169,"end":15294.218,"text":"才化法跟裁員的配置這我都可以尊重我們後續滾動是修正嘛但是就像我說的先行做溝通可是3月20到現在你下禮拜才要溝通是嗎"},{"start":15296.997,"end":15316.123,"text":"中間持續有只有剛剛講的三個議題溝通那因為當時4月14號答應委員之後受裁劃法的影響蠻深的但是我們也覺得不能再等可是裁劃法沒有很明確的話在溝通上地方政府也不知道我們要採取什麼樣的一個策略但是我們想有些還是可以先溝通譬如說我們先以50%為一個對象"},{"start":15317.904,"end":15337.799,"text":"好先溝通我們滾動式調整那第二個偏遠地區學校教育發展條例那我想當初為了這個立法的目的是想要解決偏鄉環境交通不利解決失智不穩的問題那解決學生學習經費不足的問題但是立法至今超過7年各界對於成效"},{"start":15338.96,"end":15351.551,"text":"有很多的反思討論還是日益的增加我想所以昨天才召開公聽會又聽取意見教育部也曾說要送版本進來但是到現在都沒有部長你在忙什麼"},{"start":15353.117,"end":15376.303,"text":"我想跟委員報告他確實是地方在這個營養午餐法的這個設立他還有許多不一樣的一些意見所以偏鄉條例這裡邊我想我們確實是在希望能夠在跟地方因為營養午餐還是在提供地方的這些小學生嘛地方如果有許多的差距"},{"start":15376.983,"end":15403.152,"text":"的一些意見因為地方各方面的一個條件事實上是不一樣以目前來講有的有的這個縣市他營養午餐室縣市裡面就前額免費那有的地方他是希望政府可以多更多的一些支持所以我們會希望有更多的一些建立共識不然在這裡邊法令下去的時候事實上地方大概也會有許多的一些不同的意見"},{"start":15403.672,"end":15426.32,"text":"但過程讓我們知道一下你們在忙什麼要不然我們真的對於現在這樣子我們是非常非常的擔憂因為包含其實我也很清楚營養午餐裡面公辦的營養午餐它的廚房所有廚工所有營養我知道那個都需要後續的整合去協調所以民辦民營的這個部分就會希望有一些我想這個各個學校"},{"start":15427.16,"end":15446.325,"text":"各個地方縣市政府真的樣態不太一樣我想委員也充分理解我們現在就希望能夠建立一個大家至少能夠有一定的共識這個法案提出來也許至少大家就能夠來支持大概做這樣一個補充那你有沒有什麼期程表什麼時候可以送進來"},{"start":15448.474,"end":15465.048,"text":"昨天在開會的時候本部市長張廖次長有回應基本上有兩個因素我們還在一起整合評估第一個因素才化法我也知道第二個因素八月份我們會召開一個全國性的會議這兩個會議跟那個因素處理了之後會具體跟委員做說明"},{"start":15466.445,"end":15484.879,"text":"部長另外想跟你請問之前我有跟你就教校園目前依法禁用基改食品但台美關稅現在還在談面對國際貿易的壓力教育部如何堅守校園零基改這樣的底線與經濟部外交部是否有跨部會的協調機制這個部分"},{"start":15486.072,"end":15509.78,"text":"您要不要表達一下基改食品會不會進到校園我們目前的態度還是一樣的對所有的這些我們以在地食材提供我們這些小學生有一個更好的一個更新鮮健康的一個食材我想那是我們到目前的一個立場都沒有改變我想八月份主改傳聞不斷"},{"start":15511.42,"end":15517.915,"text":"部長 你也是被執政黨的立委點名要下台的人選之一我想部長有沒有信心要留任"},{"start":15519.705,"end":15547.676,"text":"還是你覺得外界對你有些誤會要不要透過這個機會這個場合跟大家說明一下謝謝委員關心我的氣流但是我一直覺得政務官至少從我個人來講這個進退要優雅要雍容就像我剛才也有主席提我說也許說明委員希望我留下來但是我想很多的因素那不是我能夠假設性的問題我想我在這邊我就不方便回答部長這樣子八個字"},{"start":15549.099,"end":15564.356,"text":"盡力而為 問心無愧啦那其他的政策執行面我不談喔但是我要跟你還是算是要鼓勵啦因為光是部長願意一同來支持夜光天使延伸事辦在台中"},{"start":15565.717,"end":15581.192,"text":"由台中先行來示範我就要給部長肯定那肯定部長願意給弱勢的學童能夠有一個翻身的機會多一些資源陪伴你沒有放棄這些弱勢的學童我想在這裡我還是要給你加油好嗎"},{"start":15584.021,"end":15599.901,"text":"但是另外我要跟你請教的一個問題我們教師能力到底是階段性的短缺還是結構性的崩壞照不到老師已經不是偶發的現象是現在逐漸成為常態過去我們就多認為缺老師"},{"start":15601.323,"end":15615.519,"text":"有可能是因為偏鄉或冷門的科目但是現在就連過去認為相對穩定的學科跟地區也都出現缺額補不滿報道率偏低部長教育部似乎是已經全面的掌握"},{"start":15617.421,"end":15618.702,"text":"教育部在這幾年提出的職前爭域"},{"start":15645.484,"end":15662.564,"text":"增量培育擴大公費施培多元聘用方向我們都支持可是目前我是覺得這個方向沒有問題但是效果沒有到位啊到底我們現在的狀況是怎麼樣有沒有去做滾動式檢討根據"},{"start":15665.647,"end":15688.236,"text":"親子天下報導2022到2024全台教師增開缺超過1.5萬人占全體教師的10%卻有高達57.5的檢定合格人員不進入教職現在的情況是拿了證照卻不想當老師這樣的人越來越多那些師培生以及教職指教師"},{"start":15689.995,"end":15695.572,"text":"給我們的建議來看教育現場最大的痛點還是行政業務太多這我也有跟你講過"},{"start":15697.745,"end":15719.97,"text":"光老師他要處理的事情多如流氓我們要怎麼幫他增加終點費增加他的相關的權益教學的時間被壓縮升遷制度僵化長期職涯缺乏吸引力待遇有待提升整體就是不具吸引力部長我講了這麼多你到底有沒有針對這些問題去做全國性的調查"},{"start":15721.864,"end":15741.152,"text":"現在這三年來各縣市的教師正式只要他開出正式的缺以今年為例不管高中、國中、國小都超過入許率都超過90%以上也就是說我們事實上看到不足而只有少數大概以國中大概6%多"},{"start":15743.095,"end":15769.483,"text":"國小大概8%多那高中大概這個8點多%不到9%這裡邊反映了一個現象就是說各縣市他只要開出正式的名額大部分都招到了他們所需要的老師所以我們事實上有差距我也不敢否認就是說我們確實有少數的學校偏鄉的可能譬如說去年來講有某一個縣市"},{"start":15771.204,"end":15786.001,"text":"他希望招了十幾位的英文的老師報名有四十幾位可是經過教授們的這些這個所謂的委員的審查錄取是從缺"},{"start":15787.611,"end":15804.662,"text":"所以我當時也問了這個地方的教育局處長說那你這樣既然你缺了那麼多然後老師教授們都認為他不夠Qualify那這時候你的代理英文還是要有人上那這時候怎麼辦他說那我們還是從這裡邊的"},{"start":15807.715,"end":15831.329,"text":"來找代理老師這我要講的嘛所以我說數據上我們兩個有差距但是你不能否認還是有一些問題是那現在我就要講的學校正式的編制能力長期不足嘛仰賴的代理教師年年支撐課務嘛根據教師們的反應如今在學校教書的喔越來越困難也因此不少新進教師在報導不久後選擇離職啊這你有掌握嗎"},{"start":15832.589,"end":15856.242,"text":"我想有一些這個年輕人有更好的一個工作機會當然變動我們當然希望他不要有比教師更好的工作機會留財 惜財 愛財我們怎麼樣培育我們未來的主人翁我們一直在朝那個方向努力代理教師每年更換現在教學與行政工作"},{"start":15857.523,"end":15877.668,"text":"非常難以穩定的銜接這也是現在偏鄉地區更為嚴重師資缺額常常一缺再缺就是好幾個學期學校只能勉強靠遠距教學或者是跨校兼課來支撐這樣子最大的受害者是誰是孩子啊所以部長我剛剛提到這些問題教育部是不是有整體性的掌握"},{"start":15879.465,"end":15901.632,"text":"跟我們報告我們事實上這個從國教署第一線現場各地方的一些這個待遇老師其實你應該都知道啦我知道你知道啦但是問題是你知道但是不知道怎麼解決這就是問題我們沒有不知道怎麼解決但是解決是確實需要一些時間譬如說我們看到的小學老師偏鄉老師"},{"start":15902.972,"end":15919.802,"text":"你今天一個師培進來大學四年再加上教育學分要五年甚至六年才會有後端的這些合格老師他參加國家考試包括地方還有開學我們這裡邊也希望課程裡邊去做一些怎麼樣的改善"},{"start":15920.302,"end":15936.576,"text":"讓學生能夠他的教育學分能夠在畢業學分數裡面他就可以預修而且能夠成為一個他的同時能夠大學畢業的一個學分的一個承認我們事實上做了許多的改變包含偏鄉"},{"start":15937.577,"end":15955.625,"text":"一些代理代課的老師他怎麼樣讓他能夠有教育學分因為偏鄉他不可能白天出來上課當然我們就開始結合但是時間有限啦我們現在focus在這個行政減量了行政減量講了十幾年了啦感謝委員提醒其實蔡英文前總統"},{"start":15956.485,"end":15974.715,"text":"潘文忠前部長歷任國教署長到縣市政府首長都公開表態要支持行政減量但是基層老師反映行政工作不減反增全教總2023年調查超過六成老師認為行政負擔沉重而且教學時間被大幅壓縮最後還是我們的孩子受害"},{"start":15975.575,"end":15990.337,"text":"所以到底有沒有什麼辦法能夠再更有效的把這個行政減量我知道你有改進公委員報告如果以現在的我們所謂的許多的考核跟評鑑的那個項目大概至少都減少一半到三分之二"},{"start":15991.238,"end":16011.19,"text":"所以到底是你的感受跟老師的感受不一樣也跟委員報告當教育部在減量的時候事實上地方因為來自於家長更高的期待他們也在不知不覺在增加所以教育部在減量地方在減量來造成我們第一線上老師有許多的一些就我們來努力但是不能把所有的東西都"},{"start":16016.733,"end":16044.602,"text":"加在教育部我們真的有在努力我想可以讓署長來直接講許多的評鑑我剛剛才給你肯定啦你後面的國教署長有在做事我知道啦你有沒有減量有可是我現在要講的是說就像你說的嘛家長的期待地方縣市首長的期待可能增加一些行政的你們要去幫忙協助溝通去做一個整體的控管我覺得這部分你也要保護老師啊"},{"start":16045.262,"end":16063.389,"text":"因為保護老師才會保護學生啊包含校事會 我剛才也有幾位委員在關心我們也在檢討好啦 我最後30秒問一個問題啦教育部 對不起 運動部啦我們要成立了啦 9月9號要掛牌到底可不可以運動部設置在台中你們現在還沒講啊可不可以"},{"start":16070.319,"end":16094.751,"text":"台中南來北往多麼方便高雄這些民意代表他們也可能要到台北很遠台中不是很好嗎報告委員我想很多縣市都對我們運動部的位置會滿多的期待不過光是您看就我現在體育署我自己本身每天跑立法院跟行政院我的同仁每天這樣跑說實在如果離開台北地區所以你是覺得在立法院旁邊最好就對了"},{"start":16095.311,"end":16117.78,"text":"事實上離越近越好 真的是這樣子那我們的同仁其實每天都要跑我上次跆拳道的時候發生世大運的事情我支持你當部長喔包委員我們沒有被徵詢 謝謝 謝謝委員可不可以台中多考慮一下包委員這部分我們目前應該會在台北行政院到底有沒有在台北喔但是我們會在未來還要再重新在行政院合訂了沒啦行政院合訂了沒"},{"start":16119.86,"end":16141.285,"text":"呃目前是應該應該是核定了應該應該是在哪裡在目前在我們本本屬的體育大樓本部在這邊然後那個體育署直接轉體育部然後我們的全民運輸以及產業科技師都會在六張梨站旁邊的一個冠德和平大樓哦你說冠德培大樓對啊你的"},{"start":16142.465,"end":16167.971,"text":"體育署的運動部本身會在現在體育署所在地體育大樓哦好那未來會再尋找一塊地來重新來蓋一個整合的一個運動部但是應該很多年之後了好好好有有消息就好了啦那沒關係我們持續再爭取其他的在台中啊好謝謝謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢官員請回座接下來有請廖先祥委員質詢時間四分鐘"},{"start":16179.342,"end":16202.082,"text":"謝謝主席 我們部長有請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長好您的經歷 您也在新竹縣的光華國小任職過對不對嘉義縣 不好意思 嘉義縣光華國小您在任職的時候 那所學校帶了多少學生 您有印象嗎"},{"start":16203.004,"end":16217.697,"text":"我那一班18位現在全校包含幼稚園24位那你認為大概全校含幼稚園24位這樣子的一個學生的一個數量啦那對於小朋友的成長是好的嗎"},{"start":16220.279,"end":16243.054,"text":"就它這樣的一個最適規模啦我想我們過去在學習的過程也曾經有這麼一句話獨學而無有 孤陋寡聞確實我們現在在考量的不是教育經費的投入的問題而是怎麼樣提供一個更好的太多不好 太少也不好嘛 對不對就是沒有競爭 連打個躲避球都抽不成四個人"},{"start":16243.894,"end":16258.464,"text":"對不對那其實我想過去很長一段時間我們國小在討論偏鄉小學就是學生數不足的小學的時候都是在討論經費問題其實我覺得經費不是問題只要是投資在教育花在我們小朋友身上"},{"start":16259.344,"end":16273.134,"text":"多少其實只要對國家有幫助就好但是現在要思考的是我們現在的小朋友在這樣子的小學校的成長到底對這個小孩子是不是公平的他能不能得到一個好的一個學習或者是社交的一個成長的環境我想這才是應該我們未來在討論偏鄉小學要不要合併的時候一個最主要探討的一個問題我完全認同這一個委員的一個主張"},{"start":16281.94,"end":16291.465,"text":"是 那我想在這樣子過去都在討論經費的問題那可能在地方討論的時候大家會想說啊 是不是我們政府可能要縮減經費啊所以因為可能認為幾個小朋友拿多少交易資源會賣齁可能會有這樣子的一個質疑的聲浪那我想未來"},{"start":16298.989,"end":16311.135,"text":"目前我想我們也可能有提出一些診病的指引給地方政府地方政府可能也有他們自己內部的規定可能多少人數以下就可能有一些診病的方案我想為了避免在診病的過程中被一些家長懷疑說我們是不是要結成教育資源我想我們是不是教育部有辦法另外再提供一些補助的辦法或者是設定一些經費的規定比如說兩所學校要合併我們現在兩所學校可能平均每年有多少的教育資源"},{"start":16328.584,"end":16354.424,"text":"我們承諾我們不會打折甚至我們的教育部還可以再幫忙多一些來鼓勵他們來整併讓兩個小學校的小朋友都有更好的一個教育資源多花一些錢讓原本兩個社會教育環境都不是那麼健全的學生學校的學生把它合併起來讓他們有更好的環境不曉得教育部有沒有朝這樣的方向去討論過我想我們的想法跟這個委員的想法是相接近的簡單來講像"},{"start":16356.485,"end":16373.935,"text":"少子化的過程有一些偏鄉真的譬如說我舉一個例子去年某一個小學他學生就只有那一年級只有一個有啊很多啦結果後來後來這個家長也自己感受到說我的小孩子進去沒有同學對啊沒有人玩啊最起碼沒人玩"},{"start":16374.355,"end":16404.044,"text":"所以我們怎麼樣去確保學校在合併過程我們不是從經費的考量對而是整個一個學習的品質小孩子有一個更好的一個維護他的那我們能不能提出一些鼓勵的方案是我想這我們會跟地方來談有一個更彈性更整合資源的去支持這些新世代的這些小朋友年輕人有一個更好的發展我想這個我們來努力除了地方政府學校整併能夠讓每個小朋友的更好的教育資源提升之外"},{"start":16404.484,"end":16414.631,"text":"我們教育部也提出一些誘因是我想應該部長剛剛的討論過程中你也是認同的嗎是的那後續我想是不是可能就邀請這應該會是國教署的業務嗎是好那後續可能再可能過一段時間我再邀請國教署長到我的辦公室看一下我們的教育部可能"},{"start":16422.977,"end":16440.292,"text":"部長指示能夠怎樣的一個方向出來大家一起來推動好不好那照顧我們每一個偏鄉的一個小朋友在他的學期過程中不要跟都市化的小朋友一樣就是沒有同期的一個成長的一個環境以上部長謝謝麻煩署長謝謝謝謝廖先祥委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":16453.7,"end":16455.601,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長請鄭部長備質詢 謝謝委員好部長辛苦了 從早上站到現在真的辛苦了我今天問的第一個問題其實教師慌 已經很多人問過了但是我有幾個數字 幾個現場的現象然後也跟非常多老師討論 我想要反映給部長左邊這張圖 部長可能以為是"},{"start":16480.774,"end":16495.439,"text":"很可愛的梗圖而已但是我要跟部長說很無奈這個是在教育現場學校為了徵老師連老師自己都要來做梗圖徵老師才有可能吸睛才有可能被關注才有可能在網路上有流量讓更多儲備中的老師看見來這裡應徵"},{"start":16500.061,"end":16514.555,"text":"右邊這張圖呢是幾年前親子天下寫的文章說如果可以去護國神山誰要當代理教師而那一年建中發生什麼事情資訊教師找不到但是當時在爭這個資訊教師的時候他還刮胡要兼任圖書館主任"},{"start":16516.477,"end":16531.112,"text":"那後來到PTT上去發文等到招了13招部長13招才找到人我沒有要講個案部長我再一次強調我沒有要講個案大家都看到教師荒的問題我只是舉其中兩個例子下一張"},{"start":16532.677,"end":16549.094,"text":"那這個新聞截圖呢其實教育部一直都告訴我們你們有相關這些數字剛剛那個羅廷偉委員在問的時候部長甚至還談到後端失資培育的部分我都聽進去了我們來看一下如果部長用你的邏輯來看現在的數字有問題還是教育部的理解有落差"},{"start":16549.975,"end":16570.201,"text":"教育部告訴我們新教師六成任教職多元配套確保教學人力這是教育部的新聞稿可是我們看到幾個問題第一個如果按照這個邏輯每一年所取得教師證的人你們認為會有六成甚至越來越提升進入教育現場那我們就要問三成多那四成到哪裡去了"},{"start":16571.181,"end":16599.387,"text":"為什麼不進教育現場教育現場發生了什麼問題讓這些修了教育學程拿了證甚至可能是本科本系本專任學校所謂師大啦張師大啦這些學校的人都不願意去當老師我認為這個是我們真的要一起面對我不認為是只有教育部的問題我認為所有立法委員所有區域立委聽到民意的都要一起面對關心教育的人都要一起面對所以我很想問到底找不到老師是為什麼當然我們辦公室自己做了研究等一下跟部長討論"},{"start":16600.327,"end":16628.264,"text":"第二個師資儲備轉換為現場教職員的轉換率其實是非常非常的低的如果按照這個邏輯大家都不來當老師所以當然就出現教師荒而且以前是只有代理代課教師荒現在連正式教師也出現教師荒我相信您的幕僚一定有給您數字而且今天已經來到八月多了各個縣市開圈應徵報道的狀況您可能也大略有所掌握"},{"start":16628.684,"end":16652.563,"text":"我必須要說這些數字可能都很驚人教育部目前為止有沒有因應之道我等一下想請部長一起回答下一張我想要講的是一定有一些原因導致於大家不想當正式老師也不想當代理老師到底教育部這幾年的解決方案如同部長你說的你沒有解決方案可是落地之後到底發生了什麼事情"},{"start":16653.063,"end":16668.381,"text":"我們來看這個數字 這個數字是你們給我的喔 部長我們辦公室跟你們所知齁 我跟部長討論一下最左邊這一張呢 是依照教育部的統計資料國小教師的總人數越來越多 當然是有很多正式老師喔從代理代課老師 上岸變正式老師"},{"start":16669.202,"end":16676.445,"text":"可是教育現場一樣出現另外一個問題中間這張投影片紅色的字從110學年度5594人到112學年度8999人這些紅色的數字是所謂的無證代理教室"},{"start":16687.608,"end":16710.505,"text":"部長無證這件事情我並沒有要指控所有無證的老師都不專業無證的老師沒有熱情搞不好這些無證的代理教師比現場有證九任的老師還要有熱情還要有專業可是在現在教師荒的情況之下很多縣市很多學校不得不打開門十招二十招三十招拜託"},{"start":16711.286,"end":16734.919,"text":"只要有人願意進學校教書就算沒有證他大學畢業他就可以進來而部長110 112上升了將近60%欸我們的家長如果看到這個數字他會問部長我的小孩是被沒有證的老師教喔你們要怎麼保證教學品質你們要怎麼保障孩子的受教權益我認為所有家長都會焦慮"},{"start":16736.971,"end":16756.958,"text":"這個數字可能你的幕僚沒有讓你知道但是我們這個是透過公開的公文所知不找這個數字我真的很害怕我們都是來自教育基層我們都在基層待過所以我們一定可以想見無證的狀況跟有證的狀況會發生截然不同的困境但這個困境我們教育部的因應對策是什麼"},{"start":16758.318,"end":16780.233,"text":"這也是真的讓我很擔心的吳政 我剛剛講吳政我就不再多說了吳政的狀況我相信部長應該知道我們辦公室試著跟非常非常非常多地方教師跟學會跟工會也跟家長討論部長我想要提出一些可能的解方因為今天早上到目前為止有非常多人都跟你講了他們遇到的困境他們從地方收集到的意見"},{"start":16781.414,"end":16796.356,"text":"有一件事情其實教育部從108課綱上路到現在六七年了一直在逃避面對的問題但是我認為從潘部長到您一定聽過有現場老師告訴你教育部要不要修園而法"},{"start":16797.665,"end":16805.109,"text":"元額法有機會動教育現場的困境才能解決因為部長他是一個基生誕誕生期的問題我解釋給您聽如果我今天在教育現場因為108課綱所有的高中老師他額外備課的那些時間你們都沒有算元額給他"},{"start":16814.574,"end":16835.771,"text":"他要幫忙cover行政的時間也沒有算時數給他所以現場的老師不僅行政增量他們連教學要備課的時間你們都沒有算給他所以所有的老師在準備那些高中為了應付大學考試額外108多出來那些課程都算入他的時數可是你們沒有多人給他所以每一個老師的超時你們怎麼解決400塊500塊終點費解決"},{"start":16839.912,"end":16845.324,"text":"不是錢的問題部長每一個人都有自己的生活而老師現在幾乎超時上班6點、8點、9點、10點"},{"start":16849.116,"end":16869.37,"text":"只要有熱情有愛對孩子有負責任心的老師都會願意留下來但長期以來耗損的是這些還有愛還有心留在現場的老師所有的老師都告訴我們你源而法跟著108課綱的改變沒有做出改變才是造成現在沒有人敢再走進教育現場最大的原因我知道源而法一動就會動到錢"},{"start":16873.084,"end":16901.25,"text":"去年才化法又通過了很多錢會到地方去部長我拜託你我要跟你說很多這些錢是地方政府必須要去負擔的教育部要拿出你的肩膀拿出你的勇氣告訴這些執政縣市首長你花在教育端的錢如同剛羅廷偉委員說的不能信你就不能信不能走你就不能走不能逃你就不能逃所以未來各個執政縣市要不要去面對跟你教育部"},{"start":16901.69,"end":16910.13,"text":"坐下來討論原額法我認為是要的這件事情才能根本的解決現場教師荒的問題"},{"start":16911.63,"end":16936.438,"text":"行政再怎麼減量各部會還是發公文給學校行政再怎麼減量家長還是半夜打電話給老師行政再怎麼減量孩子的身心狀況在現場還是需要所有老師一起接觸更不要講現場還有太多不適應的老師是在拖垮現場認真的老師所以如果我們可以讓現場工作人他們合理的減低他們的工作量透過增加員額這件事情真的才能根本的解決"},{"start":16937.478,"end":16949.267,"text":"第二個 回過頭來教師的薪資調整這件事情我認為一定很多人跟你講過了 部長但是我知道教育部經費有限署長你讓我先講完再跟部長報告好不好"},{"start":16951.699,"end":16969.082,"text":"我們非常負責任想要提出解放因為指責大家都會可是如果你真心我們辦公室是真的真心想要跟教育部站在一起跟老師們站在一起跟家長站在一起繼而跟學生站在一起所有的困境是我剛剛講的現場的人都要承擔最後是教育部要來承擔"},{"start":16970.003,"end":16986.974,"text":"回來談提升教職員薪資這件事情我們認為現在的教職員薪資確實要好好商議從校長到主任到現場老師到代理代課老師甚至連特教助理員大家都是因為錢的問題可是現在面對"},{"start":16988.706,"end":17014.928,"text":"各式各樣社會環境變動經濟因素變動的關係都導致於薪資這件事情真的不是誘因啦部長好 再來落實行政減量這個很多人都講過我就不再講提升教師支持系統有非常多的老師一直在告訴我們家庭教育出了問題所有很多不該不該歸老師扛的通通怪老師孩子們的困境也要找老師家長不會教小孩也要找老師"},{"start":17016.889,"end":17034.081,"text":"我要談的是整個行政系統的支援真的需要部長您大迫大力有非常多人一定給過您建言如何引進新的思維如何找一兩所關鍵學校開始試辦所謂大迫大力"},{"start":17034.861,"end":17052.121,"text":"我認為這是大家對部長您的期待所以我花了這麼多力氣談解方其實最重要還是回到原額這件事情所以我要提醒財化法下去之後現在你們已經在編預算了我不確定你們編的預算是有財化法新版還是沒有財化法新版"},{"start":17052.822,"end":17077.521,"text":"可是我們都知道很多地方的老師的薪水要地方來支付很多地方教育的支出要地方政府來支付我不確定教育部有沒有開始在事權分立這件事情跟縣市政府討論如果有請拜託把我這些談的事情做下來跟地方政府好好說哪些該中央出的哪些該地方負責的哪些該地方去監督的哪些該中央政府有法規的我認為"},{"start":17079.042,"end":17087.5,"text":"所有的推脫最後受害的是小孩是家長是老師所以我們辦公室很負責任提出解放拜託部長好嗎"},{"start":17089.345,"end":17108.354,"text":"謝謝委員的這個不但是發現問題理解問題而且還有一些具體的一些建議我想都非常有價值我們教育部一定會把這些來跟地方看特別剛才提到的顏額就是我們現在的一個小學的顏額大概1.65偏鄉我們是給2.0國中是這個2.2偏鄉是給3.0"},{"start":17115.177,"end":17128.023,"text":"那這樣是不是能夠支撐到我們現在的大家對教育包括人才培育包括整個社會的一個變遷上所面臨的挑戰包含薪水等等的我想他是一個整體結構上我想我們會認真地很嚴肅地來跟"},{"start":17132.205,"end":17149.92,"text":"地方來一起來共同來思考看怎麼樣能夠形成一個支持的力量謝謝部長 源而法的部分我們辦公室很願意集齊坐下來邀請教育部跟人總 組總一起討論因為這件事情是國家根本的問題如果源而不解決我真的不知道現場還有多少人願意留下來"},{"start":17150.76,"end":17178.677,"text":"接下來我要談教育部最近幾個公共政策造成非常多基層的困擾我相信很多委員問過我就不再贅述但是我想要提醒教育部的整個系統裡面有沒有人去理解到社會溝通基層溝通非常的重要到底發布消息的管道哪裡出了問題到底從中央的美意到了地方變成強迫這件事情中間的落差是什麼所以我們都看到你們的說明喔但我想我就不再贅述這件事情要拜託部長到底我們在跟地方政府溝通出了什麼問題好嗎"},{"start":17179.978,"end":17189.365,"text":"所以我們就從最近的一個政策來看我等一下要來談體育部未來運動部的事情這個是一個關於署長的專訪體育署署長的專訪談到所謂的運動部9月9號掛牌倒數大家最關心的至少是我們辦公室最關心的體育班轉型跟校園開放"},{"start":17199.772,"end":17226.292,"text":"這邊體育署署長在受訪的時候說我們未來要跟國教署合作希望未來一個禮拜裡面從兩天三天四天第七節課可以轉型成運動社團課那這個事情當然就引起很多爭議我們就不再贅述可是我要講的是這個文章看起來讓非常多關心體育班政策的轉型的人問我說這個是跟我們體育班轉型有關係嗎我想要請部長"},{"start":17227.855,"end":17228.285,"text":"回應一下"},{"start":17229.881,"end":17256.819,"text":"一個純粹基本上的精神就是說希望說我們的學生小朋友國中小學生不是每天上課排的滿滿的應該讓他們有一些比如說第七節第一年級有一次的有一天的時間讓他們能夠運動社團或者到操場去跑然後中高年級一個禮拜也許有兩天不要每天把課程塞得滿滿的那這個部分呢"},{"start":17260.12,"end":17281.448,"text":"國教署還編了擔心等於說事實上這些本來他們學校都有排政客那我們希望能不能轉化為一個比較運動休閒有益於青少年小朋友的身心健康本來他是一個好事那而且教育部國教署也編有一些如果你社團的話你要推動幾多不一樣的"},{"start":17282.348,"end":17298.729,"text":"這個社團是對學生是有價值的但是可能學校這個部分沒有這方面專長的老師他還可以給一些聘兼任的老師來指導社團或者體育各方面的運動的活動我想他的這個想法是"},{"start":17300.151,"end":17315.518,"text":"好的而且我們是鼓勵地方也跟22個縣市教育局處所長都談過是剛開始是用這個鼓勵的我們總是要學的東西不可能老師全部教完教滿塞滿我們總要給學生有一個不一樣的一個"},{"start":17319.52,"end":17328.884,"text":"部長你一定不知道我剛剛的擔心從何而來喔主席你也歡迎你一起看喔這張投影片的最下面兩句我沒有框起來但是我們的署長是怎麼說的為什麼會讓人誤會以為這個政策跟你未來運動部要做的體育班轉型掛鉤了呢最後這兩句說"},{"start":17337.884,"end":17356.816,"text":"我們的學校專任運動教練考核在國小那一塊把成績歸零要求這些專任運動教練去做社團推動運動推動到時候不只是我們的體育班三點之後如果大家都去參與運動那體育班就沒有存在的必要了學生可以回歸正常的班級上課每個小孩都可以接觸運動社團跟運動訓練"},{"start":17359.278,"end":17370.218,"text":"意思就是說看起來是國教署的事情可是最後拉到體育署甚至拉到未來的運動部對於體育班的正義轉型這件事情我們怎麼能夠不擔心 部長"},{"start":17371.414,"end":17397.486,"text":"是這段話 但是我剛剛非常尊重部長我讓部長您把剛剛第七集的事情好好地講完了全國人民也都聽見了但是我要講的是我非常非常非常我用了三個非常擔心現在教育部裡面會不會很多幕僚搞不清楚狀況幫忙莫名其妙為未來的運動部背了一個政策的鍋而未來運動部跟教育部在體育班的分工"},{"start":17398.8,"end":17421.92,"text":"他會出現一個多大的落差我們來看下一張頭影片體育班的存在說在某些地方有需要我們試著從六都跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區縣市開始做如果可以成功轉型就讓他轉型我真的不懂不想我從小是經濟狀況極差極差極差的小孩"},{"start":17423.53,"end":17432.068,"text":"而我的小孩現在因為我跟爸爸的努力他們可以算是家庭經濟狀況好的小孩請問家庭經濟狀況如何跟一個孩子要不要去參加體育班產生關聯"},{"start":17433.823,"end":17452.481,"text":"我們還是用過去黨國時代用衛福社福的想法在看待體育班請問他們要怎麼走出奪牌主義而目前為止我不知道這個鍋誰要背是你們教育部未來要背還是運動部要背如果都沒有人要背那我不知道未來這些體育班的小孩還要繼續如何的為國家犧牲他們黃金珍貴的學習學術科目的時間就只是為了幫國家奪牌"},{"start":17458.747,"end":17483.455,"text":"過去已經有很多選手站出來告訴你們不是只有專家學者在告訴你們連陳傑憲都當面跟賴總統說過體育班要轉型不要再消耗選手了可是在幾次的公開體育署長的受訪裡面我不確定署長有沒有跟部長您報告但是我看到痛心就是這樣剛剛在教師荒的部分我覺得我非常的平和可是講到這個體育班我真的要問我們還要繼續犧牲多少小孩"},{"start":17487.356,"end":17494.503,"text":"而現在竟然講出跟家庭經濟狀況比較好的這些社區開始做那你把我們偏鄉家庭經濟狀況不好的小孩他就該死嗎他就該被放在體育班裡面嗎就只是因為體育班的教練會去找錢找球衣 找球鞋然後讓他們放學後有人幫他們做客服所以他們就留在隊上面為學校奪牌 為縣市奪牌未來為全國奪牌"},{"start":17510.339,"end":17532.206,"text":"部長我當面跟您討論體育班的事情討論過非常非常多次講到我都覺得會不會你覺得我很煩但是我們沒有在幫孩子發聲的時候會不會九月運動部成立之後有更多的小孩就在兩個部會沒有講清楚情況下被犧牲了跟委員報告我對體育班的看法跟委員是一致的"},{"start":17535.868,"end":17555.669,"text":"我們不希望我們的小朋友從小學就讀體育班他只有打球運動事實上我們希望他在學科的學習在整個身心的發展是一個更正常的更全面性的為什麼今天運動部的成立我覺得他是非常有價值的等一下部長我跟你說"},{"start":17556.249,"end":17560.792,"text":"我完全認同你剛講的學科學習跟身心發展對於一個想要投身於運動的孩子來說非常重要二全國人民真的都非常期待運動部我自己一樣但我現在要講的不是這個大的命題我要講的是"},{"start":17572.64,"end":17597.426,"text":"部長我要拜託你一定要密切的跟體育署現在未來要升格成運動部剩下不到一個月的時間了這中間的討論到底哪一些歸你們教育部在未來未來哪一些歸運動部而中間現在在實務現場可能產生的縫隙我們大人看起來叫做縫隙在資源不足社區環境不足的小孩面前那叫地獄"},{"start":17599.264,"end":17626.69,"text":"我必須要用這麼嚴正的話因為我在偏鄉陪小孩的時間超過十年我再講一次我們大人我們有資源站在台北講這些話的大人叫做縫隙對於每天在社區在原生家庭裡面被教練逼著走的那些奪牌那些小孩來說那個縫隙叫地獄部長所以我只是要告訴您在相關資訊的銜接上一定出了問題才會導致於我們看下一張投影片現在我們手上拿到的運動部的規劃是長這樣"},{"start":17629.464,"end":17647.192,"text":"競技運動司部長第八項學校體育班制度跟學校專任運動教練政策是規劃法規研修及督導他被放在競技運動司欸有沒有完全是我剛剛講的那一段這些小孩繼續被當工具人繼續犧牲"},{"start":17650.307,"end":17665.492,"text":"然後在這個過程當中他們可能真的不清楚自己什麼權益被犧牲了因為從小沒有人告訴他們原來那個是你的權益我再說一次從小在那個環境威權體制下長大的選手他什麼時候開了視野"},{"start":17667.193,"end":17681.589,"text":"什麼時候有人幫他打開那個眼界他才知道說 喔原來我被犧牲了就如陳傑憲說他是到日本去念書他才知道簡齊生說他到英國還是到國外去遊學的時候在跟外國同學聊天才發現抽血是不對的"},{"start":17683.936,"end":17710.492,"text":"而這樣的現場可能就在我剛剛說的您說是縫隙我說是地獄當中被犧牲第六點全國運動會學生綜合型運動賽事學生運動聯賽之規劃執行之輔導這些聯賽都跟體育班有關都跟選手有關第二項各級優秀競爭運動教練之與選手之選拔四級培育之規劃執行輔導及考核通通都在競技運動室部長你現在知道我為什麼那麼擔心害怕焦慮了嗎"},{"start":17713.097,"end":17726.127,"text":"他一旦一直被框在競技運動私底下我們就不可能走出奪牌思維工具人思維這是很現實的因為業務分工一下去他就是長成像這樣對不對 部長"},{"start":17728.376,"end":17747.735,"text":"我想跟委員報告我們運動部的一個成立事實上就是希望全民健康運動成為一種生活的態度然後確保全國人的一個健康那我們看到運動部其實也讓我看到了另外一個機會就是我們看到史丹佛大學去年的奧運他一個"},{"start":17748.636,"end":17777.927,"text":"史丹佛大學的一個這個名校有學生拿了三十幾塊的金銀銅牌這也是我們看到從過去只是強調少數精英的一個運動人才培育我們希望把pool做大讓全民都運動全民事實上包含我們今天所有在會場裡邊所有的不管是官員或者我民意代表有很多人的運動也非常好但是他們沒有選擇往運動那個方向我們總是希望"},{"start":17778.487,"end":17806.142,"text":"大家是健康的但是我們未來的為國家能夠爭取榮耀的已經不是那一個體育班而已他可能是有更多的人我想委員剛才所非常熱心這個關切的我們一定會來深切的來檢討看怎麼樣讓他在未來的一個體育署體育署改為運動部的時候能夠真正的能夠照我們的一個理想能夠來逐步來實現"},{"start":17807.482,"end":17833.514,"text":"謝謝部長 那個未及答覆的麻煩就書面答覆陳培委員還沒有有 拜託再給我一下下 拜託一下下有時間麻煩注意一下我們還有其他委員最後我要講的是還有未來運動部的新任部長要不要為現在所有政策跟這些會議最後的結論背書我其實非常的擔心所以我要拜託部長在運動部跟教育部的銜接工作拜託 拜託 要走得更寬廣"},{"start":17835.451,"end":17859.97,"text":"謝謝委員提醒 這是我們應該做的我還有時間嗎 最後一題好了性侵那一題 性侵那一題 來 幫我葉委員拜託 性侵那一題請委員麻煩問題簡要提出 然後請部會書面答詢 好不好 謝謝我們之前在台中市棒球體育班大規模性侵之後我們要求教育部要做不適任人員清查制度的破口"},{"start":17860.47,"end":17877.347,"text":"我們要求你們去做這個事情結果回覆出來的一次一次回覆目前確實透過普查查出有35個人是所謂的不適任可是如果沒有去查這些人都還在教育現場但非常可怕的是目前還有台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣沒有回覆"},{"start":17878.491,"end":17903.848,"text":"這個很可怕我剛剛已經實現說了有查才被發現那更何況那些沒有查的會出什麼事情7月15號我們辦公室持續跟教育部人事處開會這件事情可以怎麼做很開心教育部給我們非常積極的回覆說可以做系統跟後台查詢的改良這個事情我們會繼續追查我們希望教育部可以承諾在年底以前完成不適任人員清查監督資訊系統的改良"},{"start":17904.768,"end":17918.639,"text":"第二個定期公告教育部所屬跟各縣市高中以下學校不適任人員查詢的狀況還有部長我剛跟你說的遲遲不回的台中市新竹縣新竹市南投縣雲林縣請你們繼續追蹤這些資料可以再跟我們辦公室索取好嗎好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳培宇委員的質詢官員請回座"},{"start":17928.942,"end":17939.526,"text":"接下來有請高金素美委員質詢高金素美委員高金素美委員不在接下來有請葉元之委員質詢教育部長好主席謝謝好有請教育部長被質詢謝謝"},{"start":17959.281,"end":17975.216,"text":"委員好部長好今天有一份報告是在講教師人力要怎麼補足的問題確實現在這個問題是非常嚴重我們就看代理教師就好了這是媒體的報導然後是各縣市預估"},{"start":17976.317,"end":17982.62,"text":"代價是可能缺額狀況像新北市預估大概有2672位桃園1642位台北1400位苗栗也有1177位情況應該是非常的嚴重"},{"start":17991.53,"end":18011.319,"text":"那我想問一下部長我不知道你有沒有掌握這個狀況因為你只要稍微去跟學校了解一下你就知道以前是在招比如在招代理教師的時候一招二招大部分都是有教師證的去應徵嘛然後到三招之後可能可以開放沒有教師證的現在可能在"},{"start":18012.519,"end":18027.278,"text":"這樣的情況可能是可能一招二招就沒有叫施政人都去應徵而且還可能都應徵不到所以這是其實是一個蠻嚴重的問題我覺得是一個蠻嚴重的問題一定要提出對策就像之前大家也在講國軍的邊線筆"},{"start":18029.321,"end":18047.962,"text":"有很大的落差所以立法院就有通過一個幫國軍加薪的方案那現在國軍在招募人才方面就有比較順利 相對比較順利所以我覺得不能讓這個情況持續惡化下去好 代理教師這個你有特別了解要用什麼方式來解決嗎"},{"start":18050.49,"end":18076.17,"text":"也跟委員報告事實上這樣以去年來講所有的學校以新北市我們看到了一些缺額我事實上是跟張局長是保持這個熱線的在聯繫那國教署也每個禮拜都跟這個教育局處都有在保持聯繫等於我們除了有這一個平台能夠提供有一些老師想要擔任教學工作的"},{"start":18076.91,"end":18096.666,"text":"以一個媒合的一個平台以外那麼地方縣市大概也通常會到八月底之前開學之前大概都會一次一次的去找部長你沒有回答我的問題喔我現在是把現象跟你講問你要怎麼解決這是結構性的問題不是說你有跟哪一個縣市聯繫的問題你要去解決這個結構性問題就像我剛剛舉國軍的例子"},{"start":18101.05,"end":18128.085,"text":"如果說是待遇的問題或其他問題我們要對症下藥讓這個環境可以變好我現在講的是結構性我不會講說你有跟對我沒有說你跟那第一個因為我不知道部長這個我個人是認為這個問題嚴重但剛剛初步聽你的回答你並沒有直指問題核心來做回答跟委員報告我們確實在政策上從1111年國教署我們教育部就有訂了一個辦法"},{"start":18129.645,"end":18153.039,"text":"111我現在講的是111學年度開始我們就因為為什麼會有很多的老師的缺額代理代課老師現在各縣市開始大量的報這個正式的教師的缺額出來開始招考是因為我們在地方的一個獎補助裡面把教師的那個員額裡面的控留不能超過8%"},{"start":18155.41,"end":18183.724,"text":"所以這也造成這幾年我們看到台灣各縣市大概就把名額開出來因為當然我們也可以理解少子化裡邊當然各縣市你這樣講你還是沒有講到問題的核心現在的問題是說代理叫做缺額是沒有人要來應徵不是說你開幾個元額出來的問題我覺得大家要面對問題今天也不是來責備你說這個教育的問題我覺得是要來處理的那環境要改善我這邊就直接講兩個建議"},{"start":18185.285,"end":18200.566,"text":"第一個建議我先建議部長你自己去學校跟一些老師座談了解一下老師現在的教學環境是怎麼樣比如說像有一些老師動不動就被檢舉我覺得如果老師有問題站在家長 站在教育的立場"},{"start":18201.267,"end":18225.077,"text":"當然是可以去檢舉譬如說有的老師可能情緒有問題啊或者是他也許真的是某方面如何如何檢舉你們會產生校事會議調查但現在是老師動不動就被檢舉而且那個檢舉是不太需要有人事實地務的一個主觀的評論就可以檢舉譬如說我覺得你今天部長講話特別的兇馬上就要成立校事會來調查"},{"start":18226.497,"end":18249.327,"text":"我覺得部長看起來行為很乖張很囂張你就要被調查可是你可能沒有啊這個人的主觀意識啊一句話就可以把你送校士會議校士會議大概要好幾個月然後老師在這段時間遭受極大壓力所以現在很多老師因為這樣的狀況就有的時候他們就會跟學弟妹講說我建議你就不要來當老師了"},{"start":18250.367,"end":18268.044,"text":"所以你可以看台北市教育局啊在他們接受媒體訪問怎麼講他說現在也不是說什麼原額不原額的問題啊現在是有很多具備資格的人他都不想要投入這個產業啊所以第一個是你要想辦法我建議你啦我真的建議部長"},{"start":18268.965,"end":18287.394,"text":"因為您之前也是國教出身的嘛是可是後來去高教嘛那也許有脫離一段時間環境變化很大去跟老師座談一下真正實地去問他們為什麼你們現在覺得你們學弟妹不願意來然後你們覺得在這個工作上面是有哪些挫折"},{"start":18288.234,"end":18314.733,"text":"真的去認真了解然後對證效果像我剛舉那個校事會議坦白說我就認為給他們很大的壓力校事會議這個確實怎麼樣去落實讓他分流初步的審查分流而不要動不動全部都到校事會議裡邊那你要提出辦法來處理嘛因為現在我講的是現狀嘛現狀就是這樣啊那老師因為很怕無緣無故被檢舉所以什麼事情都採的比較保守的態度啊"},{"start":18316.433,"end":18336.819,"text":"那這其實最受害的還是學生啊因為老師就會變成我多做多錯嘛會有這種心理壓力嘛所以在制度上你要做改善好不好不然我是不是建議你跟老師聊一聊好不好去了解一下他們狀況然後在環境上的改變謝謝委員你會做嗎可以沒有問題那什麼時候要做"},{"start":18338.025,"end":18362.422,"text":"隨時可以做隨時是什麼時候嘛 每次我們在這邊好像都在跟你講了然後你每次都說你建議的不錯八月底之前我下次再來問你問你跟老師們聊怎麼樣 制度上怎麼改善第二個待遇啦 因為剛剛舉軍人的例子嘛 待遇啦像我其實碰到蠻多 老師跟我反映導師費 行政費 這兩件事情導師費現在一個月三千塊對不對"},{"start":18363.993,"end":18369.905,"text":"其實已經很久沒有調了啦還有另外一個是行政費行政費按照值級最低組長是4500塊"},{"start":18372.208,"end":18400.228,"text":"這個部分是不是可以請教育部我覺得統一編預算啦來補助啊因為以前講到這個你們都會去扯說那是地方政府啊要負責啊裁員如何如何如何我覺得如果一體式全國一體適用的話其實可以由教育部來編預算來做補助因為這已經第一個很久沒有條了而且剛剛我有聽到其他委員講那個行政大逃亡我也很關心這個議題行政大逃亡很多行政職不願意兼行政就是覺得兼的好像也沒有"},{"start":18401.241,"end":18421.114,"text":"付出非常多可是能夠得到的收穫甚至我講的也不見得一定是錢尊重也都沒有我覺得尊重也都沒有所以這導師費行政費這兩個可不可以八月底以後我也來跟你請教一下能不能也訂定一個你覺得合理的因為你很久沒有很久沒有調了嗎可以嗎"},{"start":18423.786,"end":18453.286,"text":"不過我想說我們事實上也都一直有在規劃研議規劃那種八月點問你那我跟人事總署也做了一些適度的一些懷疑謝謝部長謝謝你有在規劃那我們要如果趕快規劃跟老師講啊大家才會更多誘因嘛得到尊重然後待遇才會投入這個教學的環境嘛可以嗎好不好盡快啦也是八月以後來問你啦還有再來問跟你請教一個問題喔我有發現那個學我沒有一個教育部有一個學產基金嘛"},{"start":18455.086,"end":18471.852,"text":"一個血蛋基金那在去年底的時候忽然間訂了一個修訂了那個保管的規則增訂說本基金為了增加收益可以購買政府公債國庫債上市公司股票跟其他短期票券不知道為什麼會做這樣的改變"},{"start":18474.295,"end":18502.324,"text":"我想我們這一個學產基金因為當然希望說如果它能夠透過這一個好的一個投資一個健康的一個投資能夠增加一些經費純粹是為了增加收益是不是這個收益事實上是有一定的一個比例是反映在支持許多這個弱勢學生或者許多的獎助學金或者等等那當然啊當然這個基金如果可以有獲利然後可以反映這個我們都支持"},{"start":18502.844,"end":18514.315,"text":"只是忽然做出這樣的因為這個基金就有了解是三百多年三百多年歷史耶這從清朝時代就有了委員會裡面他們對教育部的一個建議那我跟您請教一下"},{"start":18516.567,"end":18545.928,"text":"我有兩個建議啦第一個學衍基金說要去投資上智慧公司或公債什麼但是他並沒有揭露他到底要他到底是投資哪些項目我覺得事實應該要揭露啦因為這個基金其實蠻重要他是早期很多先人把房產捐出來然後成立一個基金然後給親台的學生然後弱勢家庭讓他們可以支持他們的教育所以這個基金非常重要我覺得應該也是要受到一定的監督所以第一個你們如果未來投資什麼"},{"start":18546.528,"end":18564.974,"text":"希望可以比照像勞動基金啊什麼來做一個適當揭露我們每年都會在八月八月底之前會公佈因為它以前都是不動產是那不動產因為它的價值比較沒有那麼感謝委員提醒啦我想所有的投資一定是要健康合法對這一個有序的這第一個第二個是"},{"start":18566.567,"end":18592.169,"text":"因為大家知道現在關稅的問題所以賴總統在五月份他的就職一週年他說台灣可能會成立主權基金那成立主權基金其實坦白講台灣成立主權基金的條件和中東那些國家不一樣因為中東那些國家是出口天然氣、石油、有外匯多賺的錢成立主權基金然後再做海外的投資所以投資的項目都是高風險、高報酬的"},{"start":18593.61,"end":18617.789,"text":"那我們現在台灣我不知道要用什麼錢來成立主權基金是要舉債還是怎麼樣那如果你是舉債又去投資高風險高報酬的一些項目的話那當然風險大家那雖然承擔風險比例就高那我是為什麼這跟教育部有關呢因為我看到勞動部他是這樣講的他說如果政府有成立主權基金然後主權基金又要發行債券來籌措的話勞動基金是可以購買"},{"start":18620.871,"end":18643.941,"text":"坦白說我是覺得這蠻奇怪的因為勞動基金應該就是要保障勞工的權益啦那個基金應該是這樣請問一下我們這個學產基金我們規模300多億對不對每年收益8億嘛300多億嘛到時候學產基金會不會跟勞動不一樣就是說把這個錢去挹注到我們政府發行的主權基金裡面會嗎"},{"start":18646.056,"end":18652.358,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前並沒有這樣一個規劃因為過去也從來沒有投資過所以你們去年底改變的做法啊所以才問你啊確實上個禮拜這個內部有在討論討論投資主權基金喔沒有有一點點錢可以用來在國內國內的這些"},{"start":18667.282,"end":18689.434,"text":"上市貴公司能夠來看投資那初步呢我們其實有一些 但是還沒有定案因為我總覺得你所有的投資一定要是有一個更專業的一些會議上來形成那當然內部也跟我們報告他們有一個其實也很平穩的一個想像就是"},{"start":18690.374,"end":18714.94,"text":"國內的14家公股銀行然後找前5家3年內績效最好的就定存看怎麼樣用比定存的一個好的一個利率能夠希望能夠增加我想這個基本上到目前因為所有的委員會也等於投資的這個委員會也還沒有形成也內部僅此一再一個所以到時候會成立一個投資委員會"},{"start":18715.76,"end":18734.128,"text":"我是建議而不是你一定要成立啊不然你找一些投資門外漢來這邊投資我們只是小額的一個投資沒有很小額喔300多億沒有沒有我們最多大概就是幾千萬拿幾千萬出來投而已啦是不是OK 最好是這樣啦我們目前大概的規劃大概就是這樣而已所以我們並沒有這個大志向OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":18743.797,"end":18764.085,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 有請教育部部長過客會副主委有請部長副主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":18770.623,"end":18794.258,"text":"兩位好 運動部9月9號要掛牌當初我們在審組織法的時候運動部組織法第二條本部長理下列事項其中有一個是運動文化之一的收集保存在線展實際推廣這個是運動部在組織法裡面的法定職場事項今天拜讀的教育部所送來的關於運動部成立籌備的情況以及後續的推畫"},{"start":18795.615,"end":18817.728,"text":"裡面有一部一屬三中心 部裡面有六個師請問有關於運動文化之一的收集保存在線展示及推廣是哪一個部門的選擇保護委員 未來應該會是在產業與科技師在哪裡產業及科技師產業及科技師 來把你們今天的書面報告拿出來看到第二頁"},{"start":18820.379,"end":18826.93,"text":"產業級科技師你們今天在產業級科技師裡面執掌的事項半個字都沒有提啊"},{"start":18833.391,"end":18860.591,"text":"這部分我們目前的確在規劃上面我們先短中長期那已經有一個出版出來我們可以提供給委辦那短期部分我們現在就做文物整個的盤點那中期的部分就是要去做一個像一些像我們現在台史博我這樣說好了啦當初喔在審運動部組織法的時候針對於有關國家體育博物館的部分你們有一些想法"},{"start":18861.872,"end":18888.18,"text":"然後說先不要成立啦未來以後我們會再研議嘛我們就持續的等嘛今天從你們今天交給教委委員會的書面報告當中就整個組織架構裡面我完全看不到到底是這個部裡面的哪一個署哪一個中心甚至是哪一個司要主責這樣子的事項我今天這件事情提出來正式的質詢只是希望記得"},{"start":18889.88,"end":18912.518,"text":"當初運動部組織法的時候在審議的過程當中因為你們委員做了一些讓步委員做讓步並不代表這些事情不用做當初承諾的事項要記在心裡面當初承諾的事項要記在心裡面要好好的去做我不希望以後再看到的狀況是今天針對運動部"},{"start":18913.999,"end":18933.348,"text":"我們成立了以後接下來各司的職長上面竟然在運動部組織法裡面有法定職長事項結果在這份書面報告裡面一個字啊都沒有提因為到時候如果要就責的話到底誰要負啊這個責任啊必須要清楚可以嗎包委員我們往這個方向好來"},{"start":18934.775,"end":18955.87,"text":"不要講空的啦現在誰要當部長還不是很清楚啦我只是現在藉由這個質詢的機會提醒你們啦不要講空的啦當初我們在審運動部組織法的時候有一些委員說要設國家級的運動技藝博物館事實上我從很多球員那邊所得到的澄清我是贊成的"},{"start":18956.687,"end":18981.174,"text":"我是贊成的但是當初因為你們反對嘛你們希望給你們一些空間嘛你們會好好的去做嘛所以我們就一直等嘛今天提這樣的質詢我再強調一次善意的提醒答應的事就要做到到時候沒有做到就要有人負責包括有關於法國他們一樣有國家體育博物館"},{"start":18984.127,"end":19007.57,"text":"很多學者也站出來講運動部缺的不是預算缺乏的是保存機制跟推動計畫你們現在這幾年基本上全部都是在搞什麼數位典藏然後每年大概編了從運發基金大概每年編兩千萬下去做這樣子的事情希望運動部正式成立以後這件事情要認真把它當做一件事來做可以嗎"},{"start":19008.539,"end":19022.932,"text":"幫委員會的會喔 好來 接下來請教育部部長跟國歌會副主委我之前 我非常重視的一件事我們的高中生學習歷程"},{"start":19025.789,"end":19054.67,"text":"裡面內容虛偽不實結果被學校撤銷入局資格一個學生在學習的過程當中當然不可以造假基本正確的觀念從學生時代就要建立但是是不是要下這麼重的手社會上面有很多不同的聲音我相信部長也聽到了但這不是我今天要講的重點我今天要講的重點是我不知道我們國家的教育怎麼了"},{"start":19055.663,"end":19077.497,"text":"我也不知道我們國家的學術圈到底怎麼了我自己是從學界出來的在中央研究院裡面我們針對有關於學術的倫理也好學術的基本的要求也好事情應該是怎麼樣就是怎麼樣向來都是很清楚但是我發現這個政府"},{"start":19080.064,"end":19104.332,"text":"讓我們不知道怎麼教育我們的下一代一個高中生學習歷程不實被五個學校撤銷入學資格結果一個大教授自己的學歷造假自己的學歷造假現在出任英國公使現在出任英國公使這在學界已經成為最諷刺但絕對不好笑的笑話"},{"start":19110.325,"end":19137.741,"text":"最諷刺但絕對不好笑的笑話當初這件事情有人檢舉的時候從教育部到科技部一路互航一路互航我之前有帶你們看過了2011年這件事情開始的時候還把它變更審議處理的原則說不包括身份資料誤算或其他類似的顯然錯誤"},{"start":19139.164,"end":19163.168,"text":"我已經看不懂了你有沒有去念過法學院自己不知道沒有念過法學院寫畢業的我拿到的是法學院的博士學位這個叫顯然錯誤喔這個叫顯然造假這個叫顯然造假這叫顯然造假我再說三次我在國會也這樣講我面對學界的朋友也這樣子講過去這段時間"},{"start":19166.383,"end":19170.566,"text":"我們這個國家 我們這個政府我們這些大人們怎麼樣對在學習當中的高中生啊砍到箭鼓砍到箭鼓但是呢對於抱對大腿抱對民進黨大腿公然造假的學者卻是呵護被制啊"},{"start":19195.268,"end":19219.879,"text":"當他變更標準甚至出現了什麼狀況來繼續往下看當初科技部他的學倫事件法律專業學門一自覺要停權到你們學倫大會上面翻盤主導的就是民進黨的御用律師陳鵬光也是台堂的董事"},{"start":19222.734,"end":19246.23,"text":"接了台電的這樣的標案拿了這麼多的標案然後呢 台電的董事 也就是江雅琪的學輪案件 他參與審議我上一次在這邊問這件事情的時候啊 國科會說整個情況不是很瞭解要回去做瞭解"},{"start":19247.712,"end":19275.663,"text":"這種事情不應該發生 顯然意見的 顯然意見的根本應該要迴避 結果沒有迴避 這還不是我說的這還不是我說的當初你們都跟我承諾要徹查結果呢 我請你們徹查 徹查回來教育部回給我的公文國科會回給我的公文 全部公文編密件保密20年 全部編密件保密20年 我現在問題來了"},{"start":19277.202,"end":19298.721,"text":"我如果把你們回給我編為密件的公文我曾經作為中研院的研究員來自於學界我看了快要吐血的公文我把它公開我會不會違反洩密罪部長我會違反洩密罪嗎國科會的副主委我會違反洩密罪嗎"},{"start":19300.677,"end":19321.725,"text":"保密20年 這為什麼要保密20年不敢讓社會公平不敢讓社會大眾知道不敢讓大家知道這個民進黨政府關關相護誇張到什麼程度連最基本的學術倫理要求直接叮到垃圾桶啊台灣學術之恥啊台灣學術之恥啊政治人物啊 你如果要關關相護社會觀感不佳"},{"start":19330.776,"end":19355.028,"text":"這種腐敗的風氣 蔓延到學界啊這就是學術倫理標準的崩壞 徹底的崩壞以後我們要怎麼樣告訴我們的學生啊最高學歷啊 欽差啥啥也沒關係啊教育部不會管啊 國科會也不會管啊自己從什麼學院拿到博士學位的忘記了也沒有關係啊 即使記得"},{"start":19356.725,"end":19369.112,"text":"閉上眼睛瞎寫也沒有關係啊因為民進黨政府所主導的教育部跟國科會已經向全台灣的學術界宣告這都沒關係啦是這樣嗎來請教部長"},{"start":19376.667,"end":19400.952,"text":"跟委員報告 它之所以會列為密件是因為我們提供給委員的資料有涉及到一些什麼東西這個他的一個教授的一些沒有啊 我跟部長報告我看完了 我看不到任何國家機密我看不到任何個人隱私我唯一看到的只有什麼叫做官官相護啊"},{"start":19404.119,"end":19426.397,"text":"跟委員報告,當事人這一個我們在110年的時候接到了科技部的一個調查請問我們查詢他的教師資格審查的時候他的這個案子確實有經過我們的相關的會議在討論說他登載的這樣的一個學位論文的疑義的案子我們確實有進行討論跟審議討論出來就沒有關係嘛,對不對"},{"start":19431.181,"end":19458.356,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告他當時在深等教授在北科大深等教授的時候因為審查意見就有指出來這樣的一個疑義所以他當時深等教授的資格是沒有通過的那後來經過我們開就是說110年4月27號開完會之後審議這樣的情形也提醒當事人以後要確實登載這樣子的一個為什麼要提醒當事人以後要登載正確"},{"start":19459.637,"end":19487.866,"text":"我現在登載不正確又怎麼樣我現在登載不正確你們教育部說沒有關係啊國科會也說沒有關係啊大家都說沒有關係啊委員他在審查教師資格的時候有反映在他的教授身上對 沒有錯 你講得很好啊反映出來的結果就是我們的教育部加上國科會告訴整個台灣社會這根本不重要沒有關係"},{"start":19489.505,"end":19514.254,"text":"不是嗎報告委員他在北科大升等教授的時候是沒有通過的是因為確實裡頭意見有這樣子的一個呈現那後來他的教師資格的履歷表經過就是說我們現在掌握到的他後來有如實的登載所以在海洋所以是知過能改就好了嘛對不對報告委員因為他已經確實反映在他的教師資格審定的部分來 請國科會你們給我的密件說"},{"start":19519.364,"end":19541.883,"text":"那個大會民進黨的那個御用律師去幫他主導法律學門、專業學門說違反學術倫理去學倫大會一手幫他主導方案的這個沒有違反利益迴避相關的規範那就很奇怪賴清德提名的大法官這是賴清德提名的"},{"start":19542.912,"end":19564.69,"text":"不是別人提名的賴清德提名的大法官詹正榮在同意權行使的審查會上就擺明的很清楚第一個他們當初根本不知道這件事當初根本不知道這件事代表什麼意思代表的是連自我揭露都沒做到連基本的自我揭露都沒有做到進一步請教他他說這當然應該要迴避"},{"start":19566.95,"end":19594.417,"text":"這當然應該要迴避啊但是你們國科會很厲害你們回給我的密件當中說這個不用迴避沒有關係啊所以現在這個是國科會告訴全台灣所有的學者這是OK的嗎這是國科會的標準嗎報告委員這個案子我們依照程序進行學輪審議會的是是是你們非常會搞程序啦這個體制啊被你們玩得如火純青啊"},{"start":19596.038,"end":19617.74,"text":"你們很會玩體制很會玩程序啊程序考完最後產出的結果叫做謝謝指教茶無不法這就是我痛心的地方啊為了一個人台灣的學術界基本的倫理要求全部丟到垃圾桶裡面去"},{"start":19620.047,"end":19645.913,"text":"賴清德政府要包庇這樣的一個人送到英國當公使我老實說啦丟的是全台灣的臉賴清德拉不下這個臉面硬要派他去當駐英國的公使丟的是全台灣人的臉但是我本來期待學術人還有一點最起碼的學術良心教授還有最起碼的一點學者的良知"},{"start":19647.336,"end":19670.946,"text":"結果搞到今天啦 教育部也好 國科會也好報告委員 我們有跑程序程序出來 一切合法 謝謝指教具體的內容列為密件 保密20年委員你不要公開 你一公開可能就觸犯了中華民國刑法洩漏國防以外的機密罪我們的政府是在玩這種遊戲"},{"start":19677.759,"end":19706.246,"text":"我們的政府是在玩這種遊戲我已經不期待現在的教育部我也不期待現在的國科會能夠進一步去做什麼自我糾正的事情我只要留下歷史的記錄在中華民國的學術史上留下歷史的記錄在中華民國的教育史上留下歷史的記錄未來的學子就拿姜雅琪當作例子嘛有什麼關係"},{"start":19708.564,"end":19732.763,"text":"我沒有拿到學院的法學博士又如何我照寫 前例在前面了這不要緊啦我找我自己擔任董事公司 收我公司錢的律師來參與我的學倫大會幫我方案也沒有關係因為我們的國科會已經宣布標準了這種情況完全不需要迴避"},{"start":19734.867,"end":19741.513,"text":"連一開始在審查的過程當中連自我揭露都沒有做到也沒有關係我第一次質詢的時候我已經質疑了"},{"start":19746.694,"end":19766.223,"text":"學倫的這種事情高度的學術專業倫理找一個律師來當學倫大會的評選委員我對你們當初的科技部是怎麼挑選我已經下巴都快要掉下來我已經下巴都快要掉下來而且還是去找了一個收錢的律師這是什麼標準"},{"start":19767.881,"end":19778.95,"text":"然後呢自我沒有揭露呼嚕呼嚕出了這種整個學術界大家沒辦法接受的結論到今天繼續關關相護丟臉丟臉非常的丟臉非常非常的丟臉"},{"start":19791.38,"end":19800.006,"text":"今天在中華民國的教育史上在中華民國的學術史上寫下這恥辱的一頁歷史會記得謝謝黃國昌委員質詢官員如果有要回覆可以書面繼續答覆官員請回座"},{"start":19823.283,"end":19850.118,"text":"關於今天會議做如下決定我們先說今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢那另外有高金素梅委員徐新穎委員提出書面質詢那我們今天會議所做的決定如下報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":19851.56,"end":19870.688,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程非常辛苦辛苦各位了我們今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位部長辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"16855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16855","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dd5c812cc40ec4487a4a0c126d534bb026b3d2f3de1678a21865c06ac6538d20e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議【秘密會議】（事由：邀請外交部、行政院經貿談判辦公室，為出示「台美對等貿易談判相關文件及資訊處理協議」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-07T08:42:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-07T10:32:00+08:00","duration":6572,"影片長度":"01:49:32","委員發言時間":"08:42:28 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