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我們資訊處政處長法治局國局長 預算中心陳主任還有我們國會圖書館軍副館長"},{"start":2095.199,"end":2114.74,"text":"中南部中心邱主任 邱主任歡迎那個天高黃地遠回來開會我們都非常的歡迎那還有我們的議政博物館許館長人事處黃處長 主計處許處長謝謝大家那我們先讀上一次的會議議事錄"},{"start":2117.17,"end":2145.619,"text":"立法院第130屆經費集合委員會第二次會議議事錄時間114年7月18日星期五中午12時10分至12時55分地點本院群閑樓101會議室出席委員謝一鳳委員等7人請教委員林倩琦委員等2人列席人員周秘書長萬來等14人主席張祺凱委員依報告事項依宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定"},{"start":2147.179,"end":2173.378,"text":"二本院一百一四年度預算執行情形報告截至一百一四年六月止決定准與被查宣讀完畢我們再補充介紹葛如今葛委員主席在這裡請問有沒有錯誤跟遺漏的地方如果沒有的話就是意思錄確定"},{"start":2189.402,"end":2206.454,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好以下緊就立法院114年度截至7月份止預算執行情形報告本院為國家最高立法機關為持續推展任務各項經費收支均依實際需要按相關規定核實辦理"},{"start":2206.914,"end":2218.68,"text":"以有效支援委員議案審查工作有關114年度截至7月份止預算執行情形請詳附表1 概況表附表2 明細表緊究稅入類 經費類項目重點內容說明如後"},{"start":2222.011,"end":2246.599,"text":"一 稅入累114年度稅入累预算共编列1044万9千元截至7月份止累计分配数912万9千元累计实收数967万6千元包括罚款及赔偿收入21万1千元财产收入840万6千元及其他收入105万9千元"},{"start":2248.9,"end":2275.701,"text":"二经费类114年度经费类及区分一般行政委员文证业务等9个业务计划共编列预算36亿9614万元截至7月份止累计分配数21亿3435万7千元累计实质数19亿8636万2000元执行率93.07%主要区分下列三大项目"},{"start":2276.802,"end":2291.987,"text":"1.委員問政專項經費本項目包括委員稅費及公費、公費助理、國會交流事務、委員會館、問政相關業務及黨團補助等6個工作計畫項目共編列委員問政及選民服務等相關經費14億7393萬2千元"},{"start":2296.55,"end":2316.603,"text":"截至7月份只累计分配数9亿2271万3千元累计实质数8亿6304万8千元执行率93.53%主要包括委员税工费及选民服务费公费助理筹金及加班费等人事费7亿7570万8千元"},{"start":2319.065,"end":2347.503,"text":"委員就是住宿會館水電通訊費團體保險 辦公事務費交通費及國會交流等業務費7944萬元黨團補助費790萬元二 議事行政支援經費本項目包括一般行政 議事業務 立法諮詢業務國會圖書業務 公報業務及地域未經等六個工作企劃項目共編列議事行政支援及職工人員維持等相關經費"},{"start":2348.924,"end":2378.264,"text":"20亿210亿万元截至7月份止累计分配数12亿814万4千元累计实质数11亿2302万7千元执行率92.95%主要包括职工信奉保险及退休主金等人事费8亿5084万9千元运区水电通讯费资讯服务费办公房设及公务车辆养护国会频道委托转播等业务费"},{"start":2380.525,"end":2396.957,"text":"2亿4831万6千元图书资料库购置等设备费2281万8千元退休职工三节慰问金及年节特别照护金等强补助费104万4千元三 一般建筑及设备经费"},{"start":2398.052,"end":2421.608,"text":"本项目包括营建工程、交通及运输设备及其他设备等三个工作计划项目,共编列2亿119万8千元,包括本院委员出售款整修、周边环境空间安全优化、委员工用车辆汰换、各项咨询应用系统开发及软硬体设备购置、汰换数位影印储存资料库及数位印刷机等案。"},{"start":2422.429,"end":2443.824,"text":"截至7月份指累计分配数350万元累计实质数28万7千元执行率8.20%主要系本院一场三楼与请愿接待室会议麦克风扩录音系统新增设备采购案等案依契约未达付款条件致影响预算执行进度"},{"start":2444.705,"end":2466.611,"text":"三 結與以上系本院 114 年度截至 7 月份止止預算執行情形均依業務實際需要及規定程序本准檢原則 核實檢討辦理整體預算執行尚稱正常僅重點內容 二要報告 敬請指教謝謝好 請問在場的委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2467.987,"end":2484.151,"text":"那沒有意見的話就是我們決定立法院114年度截止7月份那執行預算的執行情形報告準一被查好那再請問現場現場的委員有沒有臨時動議沒有臨時動議喔"},{"start":2505.563,"end":2514.026,"text":"不是啦我是怕說到時候會被人挑剔沒說我們開回去這樣 嚇一跳對啊 問個議題啊好 那個七開委員那個什麼 你中心大樓那個電梯當時用得好多這樣現在借電梯等到用得過年了"},{"start":2529.935,"end":2545.601,"text":"總務處處長回答主席 各位委員好感謝關心我們的電梯的進度我們中興大樓電梯在7月底已經正式的開工一部電梯預計70個工作天我們會做三部所以預計是在明年3月前會完成完工"},{"start":2546.481,"end":2570.013,"text":"因為我們都是利用夜間施工大部分都是晚上六點之後做到半夜一兩點我們每天都會督辦到半夜所以目前有一點超前我們也目標就是希望能想辦法提前所以目前都有在整個計劃的期程當中如果施工的過程造成各位的困擾我們也很抱歉我們會加速來辦理 謝謝"},{"start":2572.415,"end":2596.005,"text":"各位也一併讓我們到總務處一併回答我想機會難得也想順便請教一下電梯更換現在是電梯的本體換控制系統沒換還是會整套換因為其實電梯的等候時間從我們技術的角度來看它有一點排程上的問題會讓每個人要下去或上去就會按很多台"},{"start":2596.905,"end":2619.679,"text":"它也不知道狀態它都停有時候很常打開都沒有人這其實就是電梯效率的問題想好奇是換的話系統會不會一起換就是那個按鈕或那個排塵的系統謝謝好 謝謝委員的指教那這部電梯因為是屬於全部都換那因為幾年前大概白話文叫拉皮那這次是連所有的基建軌道車廂"},{"start":2622.361,"end":2641.119,"text":"控制系統全部換到最新甚至我們的系統都是超前部署到更新的規格在現行法令上還超前所以我們未來會有聯網然後安全的一些通知的系統所以在這個控制的系統我們也都會請廠商依照現地的需要我們會做最優化的處理謝謝"},{"start":2644.161,"end":2655.897,"text":"好 謝謝處長處長我也跟你提一個就是說我們其實我們都住會館那我們利用會館的時間相當的多那如果你在九月份開始你要搬到那個"},{"start":2657.321,"end":2680.962,"text":"台北會館的時候那這麼多委員一起住進來那如果是假凍我看你那個停車場顯然是不足那有沒有什麼變通的方法是不是可以在這裡報告那如果你還沒有想出這個變通的方式的話我希望就兩個禮拜內你要趕快把這個報告那個拿出來好 來 回答"},{"start":2682.891,"end":2700.944,"text":"謝謝委員因為這個會館我們兩邊就是一次做一棟預計我們在九月可能在中旬左右開始可以讓各位委員陸續搬遷目前我們大概進入最後的收尾了我們也正在辦完驗收要求改善的階段"},{"start":2701.944,"end":2726.345,"text":"委員剛剛提到說停車的空間確實大安會館受限於在那個巷內停車空間周邊的紅線停車空間的不足那之前委員有指教說在旁邊可以利用一些可以暫停的一些空間規劃我們有跟建築師反映那他有提供一些配套的意見但因為這涉及說先讓我們完成這一個階段的驗收那涉及這個計畫的變更的部分我們會納入來辦理謝謝委員"},{"start":2729.616,"end":2743.61,"text":"處長 我想你這個要同時並行你要把這個計畫同時在進行當中你到時候假凍的時候大家都是六七點那同時就是這麼多的委員出門的話你是不是會有麻煩"},{"start":2744.451,"end":2771.24,"text":"我告訴你 絕對一定會被罵死因為你同時本來是本來是分住兩個不同的地方現在大家住在同一個地方你這個人數變增加了那你如果沒有一套比較好的方式我是覺得這樣子非常的不恰當況且我覺得我們立法院是集體的私能為什麼那種那麼舊的房子我們還要重新再"},{"start":2771.98,"end":2799.281,"text":"再整形一次 再拉皮一次再重新裝潢一次但是我們日本人都沒有人這樣實在是很糟糕我覺得這個當然這個問題現在講是多講了不過我是覺得說以及有新的一個建物我們也希望就是說可以落實服務我們這些委員你要另外的方式出來你不要等說真正的建築師整個驗收完成了以後你再提另外一套計畫"},{"start":2800.242,"end":2816.002,"text":"你要充分的溝通充分的溝通你是史上最會溝通的總務處長對啊拜託你好不好那請問在現場還有哪位委員有其他的意見那如果沒有的話我們今天開會就到這裡散會"}]}},{"id":"16872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16872","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd33e79f5a66a95259fb5d1c89e14031b5a4a8e3640dc7cc2038ce9a61653180355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-15T11:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：(一)本院交通委員會報告併案審查行政院函請審議、委員沈伯洋等17人、委員葛如鈞等21人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員黃捷等17人、委員林宜瑾等18人、委員陳素月等24人、委員林俊憲等16人、委員羅美玲等21人、委員吳思瑤等17人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員邱若華等17人、委員許智傑等24人、委員李坤城等22人分別擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」、委員蔡其昌等18人、委員陳冠廷等16人、委員李昆澤等30人、委員黃秀芳等21人分別擬具「資通安全管理法部分條文修正草案」、委員李柏毅等18人擬具「資通安全管理法第二條及第十一條條文修正草案」及委員郭昱晴等19人擬具「資通安全管理法第六條、第七條及第十條之一條文修正草案」案。(二)本院委員洪孟楷等18人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」，請審議案。(三)本院委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「資通安全管理法修正草案」，請審議案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-15T10:30:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-15T12:02:00+08:00","duration":5464,"影片長度":"01:31:04","委員發言時間":"10:30:56 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並有兩個"},{"start":2122.714,"end":2147.333,"text":"在委員會提出的修正動議及機關先行提出的建議條文均請各位參考現在開始進行協商那第三條本日有新增修建意見一案請議事人員宣讀本日新增修正修正意見一"},{"start":2148.956,"end":2175.435,"text":"提案人委員黃珊珊第三條的修正內容為第六款第六款修正後文字內容為特定非公務機關子關鍵基礎設施提供者供應事業或特定財團法人及受政府控制之事業團體或機構第七款修正後文字為關鍵基礎"},{"start":2177.576,"end":2198.955,"text":"設施指實體或虛擬資產系統或網路其功能一旦停止運作或效能降低對國家安全社會公共利益國民生活或經濟活動有重大影響之餘經行政院定期檢視並公告之領域第八款修正後文字內容為關鍵基礎"},{"start":2201.574,"end":2229.242,"text":"設施提供者此為運貨提供關鍵基礎設施全部或一部經中央目的事業主管機關指定並報行政院核定者徵訂第十款以及第十一款文件內容為時受政府控制之事業團體或機構此全序部依公務人員退休資遣撫恤法第七十七條第一項第二款第三目及第四目公告之事業團體或機構"},{"start":2231.782,"end":2253.412,"text":"據資通安全重要性並經中央目的事業主管機關指定者第十一款危害國家資通安全產品此經主管機關認定對國家資通安全具有直接或間接造成危害風險影響政府運作或社會安定之資通系統服務或產品宣讀完畢"},{"start":2255.9,"end":2263.269,"text":"謝謝那個剛剛志恩所說各黨團都有溝通過那現在還有修正動議是不是請那個黃珊珊委員先來"},{"start":2267.678,"end":2288.007,"text":"謝謝召委我想這個案子對立法院來說應該是非常重要在這個研會的時間我們希望在研會期間就能夠讓這個案子通過那主要是在4月24號召委已經排審了那中間經過了非常多次然後每次院會都說要協商一直等到現在那當然謝謝召委今天在座協商那"},{"start":2288.707,"end":2312.216,"text":"內容剛剛提出來的部分就很清楚的就是書發部跟民眾黨團這邊也都溝通過所以這個文字我們的修正動議跟機關建議的文字基本上是大同小異應該沒有什麼太大的差別主要是把受政府控制的事業團體跟機構依照所謂全序部的相關辦法相關規定裡面的機構事業或團體這個也是應該要納入的"},{"start":2314.657,"end":2338.508,"text":"那另外一個就是針對危害國家資通安全的產品除了機構跟人之外其實還有產品的部分我們也希望納到資通法裡面所以這兩塊說法部應該都沒有意見了所以我想這個內容我們希望按照我們今天的修正動議跟機關建議條文相同的地方我們認為說是希望能夠今天就能夠通過然後送出去謝謝好 博焱委員"},{"start":2344.937,"end":2371.62,"text":"因為我剛好有稍微對過一下文字但是可能姐姐請事務發布再確認一下看起來文字跟這一個機關現在進行的條文應該是完全一模一樣的那應該沒什麼問題因為最主要我記得那時候要保留第10跟第11的時候是因為10本來有這一個轉投資等等的那一個把它拿掉了然後第11的時候那一個定期的那一個公佈的那一個現在把它拿掉了所以我想說是不是再確認一下如果沒有問題的話這樣聽起來好像雙方是有高度共識"},{"start":2372.441,"end":2394.086,"text":"我這邊還有一個小問題就是說書法部可以稍微回答一下這我不堅持就是說因為第11款本來有這一個定期要公告等等之類的那現在把這個拿掉那拿掉之後這一款其實就變得有點其實它放不一定要放在這一個法規的層級但是如果要放在這邊也沒有什麼不妥但是就確認一下就可以了謝謝OK那是不是請書法部"},{"start":2395.519,"end":2420.393,"text":"跟趙偉跟兩位有人報告所以我們剛才對了一下文字大概只有一個字小小的差異但是我們覺得無傷大雅就是第六條的最後面的第六款的部分特定廢物 公務機關指的是特定參加人之後民政黨團的建議是即受政府控制是事業團體或機構那我們的原來超入的文字是或但是我們覺得兩個都可以所以應該沒有差別這樣子對"},{"start":2423.715,"end":2440.146,"text":"只有一個他禍跟幾道法律效果都一樣就是兩個都會包括在內都要包括在內所以應該是沒有問題那至於剛才這個省委員所垂詢的有關於這個危害自動公關安全產品的"},{"start":2441.246,"end":2461.73,"text":"是不是他要有一個情資分享或相對的這樣的一個措施讓各機關能夠知道什麼是危害職工安全產品這個我們在後面的11條有授權辦法來訂定所以我們在這定義的條文的部分我們就不處理這樣跟委員做報告所以蘇華部的意思是照黃珊珊可以的好"},{"start":2476.609,"end":2491.642,"text":"或是貨比較廣的話那我們應該是採取書發部這樣子大家都可以拿進來急的話就可能好像有一點怪怪的那我們就以書發部的文字吧以書發部的為主好那第三條就照書發部的修正動議通過"},{"start":2494.925,"end":2523.582,"text":"第三條照協商條文通過OK那再來第十條第十條柏養跟珊珊有沒有什麼意見蘇華部那就可以沒問題蘇華部這個有跟這個國民黨團也溝通過有溝通過好第十條那就照協商條文通過那再來第十一條有沒有意見"},{"start":2525.956,"end":2555.502,"text":"沒有第11條沒有意見因為最主要當時在這個委員會的時候有提到說希望能夠犯罪修法理由那現在看起來應該也有犯罪修法理由的一個提示應該就沒什麼問題OK 那就好 照書畫部是 謝謝少偉書畫部有什麼意見嗎沒有沒有好那就第11條照協商條文通過"},{"start":2559.151,"end":2585.358,"text":"再來第25條第25條有沒有意見25條就是當初有提到說第三項部分的原來的受調查者要更明確一點那我們就按照委員提示改成當事人跟過關系人那把範圍限定下來這個也跟國民黨團的委員報告過了好OK那第25條就照寫上條文通過好現在再介紹那個葛如君委員"},{"start":2589.298,"end":2601.475,"text":"好那現在第32條第32條大家有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":2609.011,"end":2624.512,"text":"那個葛禄君委員看一下現在32條看有沒有意見這個是把我們前面加的那個反人團體加進來而已所以演練集合是之前沒有的嗎沒有意見那個沒有意見 葛禄君委員32條沒有意見"},{"start":2632.133,"end":2649.828,"text":"好 謝謝主席那第32條的部分也感謝速發部參採本席的版本那入主管機關得委託其他公務機關法人或團體去辦理這個自動安全整體防護演練集合"},{"start":2650.709,"end":2679.768,"text":"那國際交流合作以及自動安全事務本席要希望能夠再次強調就是自動安全的防護其實很怕自己說自己做得很好政府部門左手雞和右手說自己沒有問題只有納入外部的專業意見才能徹底檢視公務機關的自動安全防護是否足夠那在本席就再次感謝速發部參採本席的修法版本謝謝"},{"start":2681.509,"end":2691.833,"text":"OK那沒有意見好OK那第32條就照寫上條文通過好好"},{"start":2708.769,"end":2710.71,"text":"我們立法院黨團協商結論要補充"},{"start":2735.862,"end":2749.649,"text":"謝謝主席那我稍微比較晚到有一個原因也是我想速發部也了解今天早上10點鐘在這個中研院召開了算是台灣年度的資安盛會"},{"start":2751.13,"end":2775.329,"text":"那我想今天這個算是我們台灣很重要的資安算是我自己把它稱作資安日為什麼因為有一個資安盛會我們又有資通安全法的審理但是還是很不好意思這個時間形成上所以主席是不是能夠讓我稍微說明一下我們在第三條條文這裡的一些想法跟意見如果還有機會last minute再稍微做一點調整或參採的話也許我們還可以再做一些討論"},{"start":2779.833,"end":2802.036,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想這個第三條的部分本條有關法的這個本法的用詞定義最主要是針對第一項第九款的特定財團法人也就是本法的適用範圍到底涵蓋哪些財團法人這是這一次修法的關鍵條文那按照正常的程序"},{"start":2802.797,"end":2826.316,"text":"部會進行修法之前我們其實是希望能夠部會要來完成影響性的評估也就是說條文修改了如果納入了新的或者未來可能有個空間有任何人可以點菜點餐就把任何一個外部的機關就納入這個條文來做管控的話那其實應該是要非常謹慎的"},{"start":2827.637,"end":2850.43,"text":"不過本席辦公室有數次向抒發部來索取這個所謂影響性的評估修法以後這個第三條新增納管的財產法人清單到底有哪些會被納入進來但是得到的答覆卻次次不同我們當然理解各個不同的黨團其實都有各自的立場跟意見但是立場意見"},{"start":2851.511,"end":2876.788,"text":"如果纳入进去了那到底有谁会受到影响谁在未来可能会被一只手指头就把它纳入进来那以速发部六月份提供给我们的政府直接或间接控制的财团法人列表为例当时表列当中像是公平交易委员会的财团法人多层次传销保护基金会交易部的财团法人中华民国私立学校"},{"start":2881.431,"end":2906.523,"text":"管理委員會還有金管會的財團法人中華民國會計研究發展基金會以及衛福部的財團法人歐巴尼紀念基金會等等在訴發部前兩天所提供的列表當中又不見了那到底是訴發部沒有精確的掌握本法修法以後所新增納管的主管機關還是這份財團法人列表本來就初一十五的經常性的在變動"},{"start":2907.603,"end":2934.697,"text":"距離這個速發部六月提供的資料還不到兩個月的時間結果新舊資料又有差異直通安全的管理範圍如果真的是初一十五變來變去的話那到底各個機關各個單位又要如何來因應呢可能會無所適從就會變成我們一開始的擔憂是什麼我們這個修法如果通過了任何一個人或任何一個機關或任何一個部會拿一個清單來點一點"},{"start":2937.009,"end":2958.382,"text":"說一說手指頭指一下這個機關就變成了資通安全法的手可以伸進去的範圍當然我們是以保護跟安全為主體但是在這個過程當中可能有很多的資料調查資安的調查資訊的交付等等那這個手如果伸進去"},{"start":2961.121,"end":2983.311,"text":"這個單位沒有辦法有相關的這個機制準備甚至是這些單位是不應該有這樣子的一個繁複流程的那我們初一十五這樣子改變真的好嗎可能會令這些未來可能會又被新增納管的財團法人事業機構無所適從那如果財團法人法"},{"start":2984.051,"end":2999.28,"text":"的納管範圍是屬於經常性變動的狀態本席認為應該是審慎評估是否新增資通安全管理法第3條第9款亦或是回歸到現行法以預算法來界定適用範圍還是比較妥當"},{"start":3002.56,"end":3027.469,"text":"再者還是要來表達一下因為以速發部前兩天所提供的最新納管列表來說現行條文以下是會納管165個財團法人那預計第三條第九款修法以後將減少納管25個財團法人新增納管6個財團法人總共剩下146個財團法人但是好像減少了對吧但是檢視條文的內容並沒有"},{"start":3030.53,"end":3058.997,"text":"賦予主管機關或目的事業主管機關排除的法源依據那這比用一個手指頭點菜更糟啊變成是另外一隻手指頭再點一點有一些就可以排除了到底這個法源依據在哪裡這個清單是不是有誰說了算難道我們這樣修法過了以後這根手指頭就掌握在特定的機關部會手上嗎"},{"start":3060.077,"end":3085.512,"text":"那最令本席擔憂的是目前速發部提出新增納管的六個財團法人是依據對各部會進行問卷調查以後金管會正面回覆認為這六個財團法人有必要納入資通安全管理法當中並不是修法以後只新增這六個財團法人在這裡也分享給主席也分享給我們其他的黨團的同仁"},{"start":3087.557,"end":3110.988,"text":"這個清單 就是第三條的這個清單在未來有可能會變來變去新增 想增就增 想刪就刪那迄今我們一直詢問書發部到底具體會被這一次修法影響的財團法人的名單確定下來的有誰如果今天按照書發部的建議版本通過"},{"start":3112.355,"end":3136.749,"text":"或者是按照誰如果我們這個版本沒有很細緻的去處理或者其他黨團我們如果有一些地方沒有很明確的設定好變成是空白授權的話就真的很危險那我們也覺得速發部原始的建議版本確實是有點不完備那當然這個我們還是要稍微來回覆去看一下"},{"start":3137.429,"end":3156.625,"text":"那本席要再次强调自动安全法的管理的售纳管的范围绝对不可以初一十五天天在改变如果有例外比如说新增的财团法人就是他是刚成立的那当然新增进来没有问题依据他的合理的条件可是如果已经存在甚至存在已久的"},{"start":3157.225,"end":3181.748,"text":"可以由一個人或者一個特定的單位去點菜點餐那這其實是非常非常危險的對於大家的資訊安全所謂的安全還有分安心嘛那所以這個我們會有點擔憂到底有哪些財團法人會被納管進來建議還是回歸到現行法等到速發部和相關部會徹底搞清楚納管名單以後"},{"start":3183.058,"end":3200.547,"text":"我們是不是再來確認第三條這是為什麼我這個從這個資安的年度盛會這個一路這個快馬加鞭那趕過來我就是希望還是要來表達一下對第三條真的要非常的謹慎非常謹慎"},{"start":3202.808,"end":3222.133,"text":"另外第三條第一項的第十款是本次在協商當中新增的在委員會審查的時候其實我們是沒有放入條文當中其實也比較沒有經過委員會的討論我想影響性的評估就要非常仔細審慎了"},{"start":3223.593,"end":3243.546,"text":"那我们是因为自己非常关心所以我们求慎重有向抒发部来确认依据这个第三条第一项第十款的写法是说公务人员退休之前抚恤法第77条第一项第二款第三目以及第四目公告的事业团体或机构"},{"start":3245.327,"end":3258.283,"text":"經過中央目的事業主管機關指定者這個就叫做那一隻手指頭用文字來描述那一隻手指頭而且那一隻手指頭是誰的手指頭呢叫做中央目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3259.725,"end":3288.12,"text":"所以中央目的事業主管機關的意思還不是只是速發部還不是只是速產署是全部的中央的政府只要有任何的目的事業主管機關都可以增加指定那到底有哪些事業哪些團體機構會被資通安全管理法納管我們是到現在沒有辦法得到任何具體的明確的因為如果我們這真的是按照這個寫法"},{"start":3290.307,"end":3297.737,"text":"去用公務人員退休之前撫恤法第七條第一項第二款第三目及第四目的這個範圍只要是"},{"start":3301.754,"end":3323.399,"text":"這樣子的範圍列出來的並經中央目的事業主管機關指定者那就是點菜就是點餐有人來抗議了說我不想要被這個處理那就打個電話處理一下或者聯絡一下手指頭再指一下劃掉是不是就變成不被指定者了"},{"start":3324.279,"end":3344.545,"text":"所以我想依據速發部所提供的清單其實我們現在就非常擔憂因為裡面已經有很多地方政府所投資經營或管轄的事業團體或機構會被納入資通安全管理法當中但我們理解資通安全是要來幫忙防護的但是如果一旦"},{"start":3345.871,"end":3363.869,"text":"這一隻手被利用了被利用作為資料的搜查調查系統的這個搜查調查其實很多資訊自由的部分就會被暴露個人隱私的部分可能就會被暴露任何的電腦系統手機"},{"start":3366.092,"end":3378.554,"text":"都有可能因為自動安全法被沒收裡面有多少的Excel有多少的Document有多少的檔案就有可能被沒入被解釋"},{"start":3379.878,"end":3401.913,"text":"这一点我们也还是要表达忧心当中已经有被纳入的是台北市政府投资的续产运销公司花卉产销公司 渔业运销公司台中市政府投资的渔市场公司肉品市场公司 果菜运销公司桃园市政府投资的渔市场公司"},{"start":3402.794,"end":3426.724,"text":"其實也不分藍綠啊還有高雄市政府苗栗縣政府榆林縣政府彰化縣政府等等地方所經營的公司或投資的公司這些公司真的有需要納入資通安全法來管理嗎範圍又在哪裡是不是任何一個理由說啊你們這個同仁有誤觸這個釣魚的這個信件我們要來做一點資安稽查調查"},{"start":3428.675,"end":3447.427,"text":"手是不是就可以伸進去這其實就有可能會引發中央與地方政府權責上的紛爭這些問題早在審查會裡面就有很多的委員提出那速發部其實是沒有積極的針對我們的疑慮加以釐清那反而又增加了這個所謂的第十款"},{"start":3448.207,"end":3467.279,"text":"所以我想這樣子的這個擔憂那我想可能還是要這個希望如果我們這個疑慮已經在這個先前的調整當中已經完全適宜了那是不是或者是這個疑慮其實也還沒有消解這根手指頭還在"},{"start":3468.98,"end":3482.399,"text":"是不是還有機會請主席讓事務發布簡要的做個說明可以嗎謝謝國務卿委員那個他剛才本來是同歸但是他有一個意見事務發布是不是說明一下"},{"start":3485.034,"end":3503.406,"text":"謝謝昭偉跟各位報告我們先第9款開始第9款我們首先先跟各位抱歉因為我們在盤點的過程中的確各個裁判法人他們主管機關前後來的資料是有不一致的情形所以我們有經過重新的整理"},{"start":3504.066,"end":3524.025,"text":"最後各位剛才提到的那是的確是最後目前盤點到數字現行的是165個修法後納管的是146會減少25個增加6個那6個都是金管貴的這6個是之前我們大概就跟各位報告過都是非常重要的包括聯合徵信公司這個"},{"start":3525.947,"end":3553.403,"text":"期貨交易人保護中心保險事業發展中心汽車交通事故特別補償基金住宅地震保險基金以及保險安定基金這些都是具有全國性而且它雖然政府捐助在50%以下但是他們所掌握的資料都有相當的職工安全的重要性我們要跟委員報告就是說我們現在第9款的部分採取院所提出來的條文"},{"start":3553.983,"end":3577.098,"text":"並不是要增加主管機關權限而是預算法之後財團法人法又做過修正所以我們完全是按照財團法人法第二條第三條以及這個相關的規定來做意思是說他不是主管機關不管是行政院或書發部可以任意改動的他完全要按照法律的構成要件來法律構成要件沒有的那他就沒有辦法"},{"start":3577.938,"end":3598.433,"text":"完全是因為因應財團法人修正我們並沒有打算要增加主管機關的權限但是我們也附帶跟委員報告一下就是說委員提到就是說如果按照現行的條文我們在行政機關部分也可以接受但是我們有徵詢過執政黨團跟民眾黨團的意見他們都比較贊成說按照新的財團法人法的構成要件來辦理"},{"start":3599.854,"end":3622.317,"text":"這是第一個跟委員報告的第十款的部分跟委員報告這是當初在委員會討論的時候民眾黨團認為說除了現行財團法人之外有某些受政府控制的事業團體或機構他讓他如果具有相當的自通安全的重要性的話恐怕還是必須要有一個方法可以納管"},{"start":3623.237,"end":3651.099,"text":"所以我們在跟民眾黨團這個委員這個報告之後溝通之後也覺得說如果他有當然就是剛剛委員有提到有很多實際上在自動安全上面沒有重要性的其實是不應該放進來的所以我們就按照例如跟這個CI的例子是很一樣的就由目的事業主管機關來決定他在自動安全上面有沒有重要性如果有重要性的話"},{"start":3653.421,"end":3680.899,"text":"就納管進來所以這個條文我們大概經過民眾黨團給我們的意見之後我們認為民眾黨團修正案我們在實務上面是具有可行性的而且在自動安全的防護上面也有必要性所以我們採納這樣的意見當然就是說我們也懇請就是說自動安全法真的是非常非常重要的一個法律那攸關我們國家自動安全我們覺得說三黨大概都已經有朝野大概都有相當的共識"},{"start":3681.719,"end":3704.799,"text":"在可控的範圍之內可控的範圍之內我們會建議說是不是可以採納各黨的意見所以我們今天才提出這建議的條文大概都有跟三兩行報告過我們行政機關也可以接受而且實務執行上面坦白跟委員報告我們做自動防護其實資源是非常有限的委員是行家知道我們一定會把"},{"start":3706.681,"end":3735.681,"text":"自動安全的資源放在最有效的部分我們站在行政機關立場絕對不會任意的擴張到自動安全防護的範圍之外一定是在自動安全有重要性的狀況下才來做所以基本上就是我們說財政法人法部分我們是按照財政法人法的規定來修正但是回到現行的條文我們也可以接受第十款部分民眾委員給我們的指教我們覺得在實務上面具有一定的重要性而且它有主管機關作為控管的"},{"start":3736.041,"end":3747.726,"text":"控管範圍那在我們自動安全的資源上面重點的投入我們覺得在實務上面也應該是可以辦得到的所以在這樣的情況下我們覺得可以接受這樣的修正條文那懇請委員來支持"},{"start":3754.233,"end":3781.872,"text":"謝謝主席我想也謝謝次長我可不可以再稍微做個回應謝謝謝謝主席精簡重點我想次長您剛剛講的話我們都有全國直播也都有記錄我們其實非常擔憂的就是所謂的目的事業主管機關是不是真的可以自主控制我們已經在非常多的質詢裡面看到了昨天"},{"start":3783.596,"end":3786.406,"text":"連獨立機關中選會都可以說不得已"},{"start":3787.501,"end":3812.302,"text":"特定挑选特定的日期那其他的主管机关又如何说像您刚刚说的相信我们不会怎么怎么做所以我们还是觉得因为现在看起来这个刚刚第一项第十款其实是有绑定到公务人员退休抚恤法第七条第一项第二款跟第四目第三目跟第四目这是可以指定的"},{"start":3813.042,"end":3828.974,"text":"這個指定就是可以加進來或是刪除而且這隻手是賦予了主管機關而且沒有任何的制衡機制它也不需要先知會比如說我們現在在這裡協商我們相信速發部因為我們有這樣子的共識我們有經歷這樣的過程速發部有足夠的專業來認定這個我們也理解"},{"start":3833.897,"end":3862.688,"text":"可是也沒有任何一個程序我就確認一下這個跟主席接連我就確認剛剛你們講的這個指定的這件事目的事業主管機關指定有沒有需要經過速發部的確認有沒有任何一個制衡的機制這一點現在的法律上是沒有的法律是要保護人民的法律是要保護群眾的法律不是說我訂了以後請人民相信我們我們會好好做就好了"},{"start":3864.283,"end":3876.639,"text":"那這樣我們也不用討論這些法啦你們就不用問啦我們就相信你啊 你們就自己去做就好啦這一點是不是可以請抒發部再做個回應就是說這個有沒有一個制衡機制在裡面 謝謝先那個黃珊珊委員"},{"start":3878.749,"end":3899.017,"text":"我想格魯居委員講的這個東西主要還是要把程序都搞清楚嘛所以這是全責的問題所以主管機關應該要把說明清楚因為黨團在討論這件事情的時候其實速發部也有說明他們將來你們還是要做相關的施行細則或者是相關認定的標準跟機制這個部分是不是一次說清楚"},{"start":3899.537,"end":3928.307,"text":"我覺得這個他的疑慮也是大家的疑慮的話我覺得不應該在我們保留出去之前沒有產生共鳴我覺得還是要講清楚說明白那個可能書畫部剛你提到的就是說葛珠京委員講到的是手指頭就可以指定那你講的是財團法人法第二條第二項跟第三項等就是說他有法定那是不是就這個部分說明清楚"},{"start":3929.48,"end":3945.759,"text":"第一個就是第9款的部分的確我們是按照財產法人法的要件來的第10款的部分就剛才葛委員說目的世界主管機關是不是愛指定什麼就指定什麼其實我們是不反對說就讓我們速發部來做過濾我們會在試驗室的訂就他指定之後要報來我們這邊同意這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":3955.424,"end":3969.385,"text":"或者是說我們其實在這邊加文字就可以如果因為這是民眾黨團也有提案要黃委員這邊同意就經中央物業水管機關指定並經主管機關同意者這樣我是不是OK的"},{"start":3973.206,"end":3993.143,"text":"好 謝謝市長的回應因為我想 我還是同步一下我想大家都很清楚這個近期的一些不管是民眾安全還是資訊安全有非常多的不管是人民或公僕他可能電腦系統 手機系統 檔案"},{"start":3996.486,"end":4008.651,"text":"數位檔案它會隨時被各種理由搜查甚至被解釋那這個我想這個我想主席可能也很清楚未來不管什麼政黨都有很多未來的縣市長"},{"start":4010.134,"end":4036.446,"text":"那我覺得我們剛剛講的是第十款第十款呢其實就是它綁定的是公務人員退休之前撫恤法第七十七條第一項第二款第三目跟第四目在這兩個條目裡面寫的就是說會被資通安全法第十款影響的這隻手可以伸進來的這個第十款會影響到的"},{"start":4037.708,"end":4065.398,"text":"事業團體或機構事業團體或機構是只要在這個工人員撫恤法的這個裡面去主管事業目的事業主管機關指定就可以那我剛剛已經念了很多台北市府的啦台中市府的啦桃園市府的啦還有高雄高雄市府的苗栗雲林彰化所以這些底下只要有投資經營或管轄"},{"start":4066.997,"end":4090.334,"text":"或管轄喔而且不是只是事業喔還有團體喔還有機構喔只要一隻手指就可以增加或刪減沒有任何人可以制衡它那現在次長很正面啦我們也都有直播也都有組織稿紀錄是說要用細則來處理我覺得我謝謝訴發部願意承擔這個責任因為我覺得至少我們現在治安法的對口"},{"start":4091.676,"end":4113.835,"text":"主管機關就是速發部如果你們沒有一個這樣子的一個機制去制衡的話那任何一個目的事業主管機關都有一隻手指頭那還得了啊所以我自己個人還是覺得這個第三就這個部分我還是傾向保留那等到細則有個方向出來"},{"start":4114.716,"end":4138.875,"text":"否則我覺得這樣子我們等於是開了一個空白支票給一堆手指頭有可能因為一點點的我們有聽到這個資安事件你們有人點了一個釣魚的email我們覺得你們這裡的資安不夠好伸進去我覺得你們的用戶名單用戶名冊誰的用戶名冊肉品市場果菜運銷"},{"start":4141.183,"end":4169.241,"text":"這個你們的檔案有沒有被入侵我們要查你們的電腦查你們的人員的手機確保是安全的這個是我們擔憂的啦那這個真的不是政治攻防喔這個是保衛資訊自由保衛人身安全保衛數位的權益 謝謝謝謝 我是這樣建議啦就是大家參考看看剛那個葛禄君委員講到的就是說細則要出來"},{"start":4170.051,"end":4198.733,"text":"那可能會比較久那我這樣建議就是說你那個剛講的寫在說明欄裡面要把它寫清楚就是說葛如君委員覺得這個有疑慮的在說明欄把它寫清楚那就是包括你們要訂定在細則裡面就把它寫在我們這個說明欄裡面那就是說原來照我們原條文通過那是後面說明欄把葛如君委員這個問題全部都把它寫在說明欄裡面"},{"start":4200.1,"end":4226.597,"text":"這樣好不好我們其實我們承諾說我們訴法部會負起這個責任來那就是重要目的事的主管居然指定的那要經過我們這邊統一那這我們會可以在這個適應細則來定那我們這個就如委員所講的這個是這個全國民眾都公開直播可以看到我們做這樣承諾我們也願意在立法說明裡面把它說清楚"},{"start":4228.165,"end":4249.377,"text":"好 就是那邊把它寫清楚好 謝謝也還是很感謝正面回應但我講一個具體的狀態好不好就是說我們要了很多次這個到底誰被第三條影響要了很多次都不一樣名單都不一樣這是第一個第二個是假設現在是有這個指手指的這個狀態進來"},{"start":4251.238,"end":4275.843,"text":"中央目的主管事業目的這個主管機關進來點了我舉個例子我們點一個比如說台北市政府的這個漁產運銷股份有限公司說有資安疑慮我們要調查可是因為這是台北市政府可能有投資或管轄的台北市政府認為我想黃珍珊委員也當過這個縣市的這個副市長嘛"},{"start":4276.994,"end":4281.745,"text":"那如果縣市政府覺得有疑義 有摯愛"},{"start":4283.373,"end":4307.023,"text":"那只能跟抒發部說抒發部你可不可以不要手伸進來這沒問題你們不要亂扣帽子或者我這裡還有高雄市政府我唸給主席聽高雄銀行股份有限公司高雄果菜運銷股份有限公司高雄肉品運銷股份有限公司岡山漁市場股份有限公司港督汽車客運股份公司"},{"start":4308.809,"end":4334.67,"text":"這些啊 隨便就可以指定喔隨便都可以 我還可以繼續唸喔我還可以繼續唸喔我還可以繼續唸台南喔 台南麻豆漁市場股份有限公司新營漁市場股份有限公司嘉里漁市場股份有限公司南營農產國際行銷股份有限公司這些是全部只要有一個資安異議所有的數位資料就可以進來調查"},{"start":4336.775,"end":4361.812,"text":"那你說那縣市政府或未來的縣市政府如果有異議那現在大家都在聽嘛這些單位的人也會覺得說那以後我覺得我沒問題啊我們自己內部有資安管控啊我們已經處理完了抒發部或主管機關覺得不行我要進去那怎麼辦這個漢格如果有漢格的話"},{"start":4362.895,"end":4375.274,"text":"抒發布局對喔 這個要來處理喔而且那個盧前委員等一下那個珊珊委員再講那個抒發布他要改那個你說的疑慮等一下那個黃珊珊委員有意見讓他先講"},{"start":4379.169,"end":4406.573,"text":"剛剛聽完就是說相同地方政府真的滿多這種東西的所以它的主管機關應該還是地方政府是不是在地方政府跟蘇發富的權限中間要有一個什麼機制這個機制是讓主管機關也可以你說真的說那天肉品市場跟漁市場到底這個資安有什麼疑慮的確好像有一點小不是那麼嚴重的國安問題但是可能還是要尊重一下地方政府的主管機關的意見"},{"start":4407.213,"end":4428.573,"text":"那是不是在處罰部這邊可以用什麼樣的機制說在類似地方政府的主管的相關的部分能夠有一些尊重地方政府的機制中央的部分也是我們立法的主要原因因為太多就是花外之地然後不受管控所以我們民眾黨提案的原則原則當時是希望針對中央主管的相關機關"},{"start":4429.714,"end":4450.015,"text":"但是我說地方政府像這種根本不會影響到太多的國家安全的部分我覺得其實是可以尊重地方政府的職權是不是在這上面你可以寫一些地方主管機關有意見的部分你們才能夠插手也就是說國務局委員一直說那隻手指頭不應該都只有一個人一個地方"},{"start":4450.615,"end":4479.462,"text":"那這個我覺得我們蠻同意的地方政府畢竟他是民選政府所以他應該有他自己的一些管轄而且地方政府說實在碰到中央的重大的資安危險我覺得也沒有那麼多所以是不是可以在這中間找到一個平衡點那這樣我覺得這樣可能是可以達到但中央的機關民眾黨還是希望都能夠納入管理不要再聽主管機關因為主管機關只要說不行反而就不行的話這不是我們立法的原因但是地方政府的部分我們是不是可以找到一個平衡點謝謝"},{"start":4480.595,"end":4505.27,"text":"OK 那個葛如君委員跟黃珊珊委員講的有道理啦那但是那個書畫部要怎麼樣修改然後來就是他們的疑慮來解除是不是跟謝昭偉就容許我們現在就把文字寫出來給各位看那地方政府的部分要經過地方政府條文跟說明欄位都要我們就條文不動就按照這個民眾黨團的"},{"start":4507.951,"end":4524.928,"text":"說明欄位沒有法律效力你條文要因應但是當然條文可以精簡但是說明欄位完整一點條文還是要有我們寫出來包括涉及地方的權限可能要遵循地方政府的意見如果召委同意的話給我們一點點時間我們趕快寫"},{"start":5227.522,"end":5246.187,"text":"剛剛協商的結論第3條第10款說政府控制這事業大大大那個都跟原來一樣那到最後呢最後再加入就是並經主管機關核定者"},{"start":5247.663,"end":5262.993,"text":"然後受地方政府控制者應經地方主管機關同意後主管機關時的核定那就是盧軍委員剛提到的這個地方政府的疑慮我們就在這裡明文把它規定這樣好不好"},{"start":5264.045,"end":5285.74,"text":"好 那第三條就照協商條文通過好 那個第11條的部分我可不可以因為也是牽涉到地方政府我是不是可以簡要的表達一下簡要好不好謝謝其實第11條就是因為有危害國家自動安全產品的可以做清查但是這裡面的範圍"},{"start":5288.422,"end":5302.559,"text":"對 我們找到了這個所謂的縣市政府的這些委外營運場所或自行或委外的場所光台北市就有200多個地方高雄可能也很多那我們不反對要去做這樣的清查為了我們國家安全跟自動安全"},{"start":5306.463,"end":5321.648,"text":"但是光台北市230個委外營運場所光一個台北小巨蛋就包含在裡面有多少螢幕 喇叭還有很多的設備還有很多老人中心養護中心 運動中心全部涵蓋在內我們不是說不能清查"},{"start":5322.088,"end":5345.63,"text":"而是說中央修一個法如果地方要去清查這些人力的成本你也不能找人去亂查你也不能裡面的人自己去隨便查那這樣有查跟沒查也一樣嘛這顯然也不是這個目的所以本席是不是可以建議速發部能不能有一個比如說資源的挹注或者是如有需要可以提出"},{"start":5347.432,"end":5360.979,"text":"讓這個中央來做一些協助否則到時候要清查可是他沒有人力 沒有資源也沒有知識或這個相關的資訊去清查反而又會造成這個所謂的執行上的困難啦"},{"start":5361.579,"end":5380.212,"text":"好那這個我們也是在幫不分政黨的這個不是政治攻防這個真的是在協助我們在地方自治上未來有這麼多的縣市長還有這麼多光台北市一個200多個場館那一個小巨蛋有多少個設備要清查人力時間還有資源謝謝好那蘇化部"},{"start":5385.663,"end":5411.068,"text":"這個法是將來是本部是主管機關了就是如果各機關有需要資源不管資源還支援這個本來就是由我們統籌來調度那我們非常贊成各位的意見就是說我們可不可以在說明欄去說主管機關應提供必要的這個支援或支援或協助可以嗎因為這個就不是法條的問題了這樣子"},{"start":5420.193,"end":5445.118,"text":"好了 執行的部分當然就不列入法內嘛那就在說明欄上說清楚就好沒人在支援跟支援說要什麼我理解啦 理解剛剛第三條是因為有侵害權益啦我覺得這個入法條比較重要這個是怕做不好那我覺得看用什麼方式是用附帶決議比較好還是用說明欄的方式這個大家表達一點意見好不好 謝謝"},{"start":5446.909,"end":5464.204,"text":"那就說明欄把它訴說清楚我們就在說明欄的2原訂定本條最後那如果有需要主管機關應提供必要的支援與協助這樣好不好我們可以把它寫出來好"},{"start":5467.404,"end":5490.575,"text":"現在我們宣布協商結論協商通過條文第3條第10條第11條第25條及第32條如附件其餘均照審查會審查結果通過條次引述條文部分文字及原影條次授權醫事人員整理"},{"start":5492.549,"end":5497.034,"text":"這樣OK好好大家沒有意見那我們今天會議到此結束謝謝"}]}},{"id":"163543","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163543","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6f2eb6d3f9953f83918cf3659852ed2502cb3399e5ac538313fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"15:52:03 - 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通訊軟體啦以及這個虛擬貨幣我們在這個數位的網路平台上面現在我們已經要求這四大的平台Meta、IG、Google還有YouTube再加上Trade五個平台Trade在九月份也會要求它落地管理實名制這樣會有助於我們對一些九月份是下個月嗎"},{"start":260.902,"end":288.631,"text":"對其他都有了全面4個都有了就是TRADE這個部分會在9月份要求他也要照我們新的打炸心法裡面所規定要在這裡落地實名制定在的時間請TRADE要在9月份的時候也要強制執行制他必須接受我們的管制那麼另外就是虛擬貨幣這個我們現在當然他的成效比較不明顯因為他到底是一個很新興的一個取代一個貨幣的一個行為但是接著我們這個金管會會從"},{"start":290.651,"end":304.972,"text":"貨幣發行幣商服務幣商的這個管理讓他成為一個公會讓他納入我們公會的管理之後納入公會的管理從根源來管理 是否這個解讀正確嗎納入公會的管理"},{"start":306.182,"end":324.491,"text":"從根本來解決我們會他成為一個工會讓他在裡面第一個是要自律 第二我們用法律上來管理再請這個彭主任來做說明我想剛有關那個虛擬資產的先跟委員說明一下我們那個專法在6月27號已經送進行政院在審議中現在已經在加緊審議中"},{"start":325.732,"end":349.117,"text":"在我們去年11月30號通過了這個登記制以後呢可以行者這部分是我們第一步的管理剛剛院長有提到就是說我們組工會的部分他們我們把就現在所有的VASP就是虛擬資產業者的工會現在已經開始運作了像比如最近呢我們在5月的時候請問你們這樣的方案要什麼樣什麼時間可以承行因為民眾苦不堪言"},{"start":350.017,"end":376.353,"text":"其實我們現在的你們有方法給予肯定但是你要告訴我們答案你們一定有你們的KPI你什麼時候公會他可以成行我們政府可以管控去年已經成立已經開始運作像比如說在跟委員報告我們今天5月就看到現金交易的問題我們就直接把現金禁掉所以我們在這一部分我們把這個就做得很有效納管這是其中一個措施"},{"start":377.054,"end":387.248,"text":"接下來比如說我們對於所有虛擬資產業者的管控我們從原來最高的26到現在的話我們大概只剩下14家因為對不合規的我們全部把它淘汰掉"},{"start":388.919,"end":411.677,"text":"院長您聽到你的單位主管說是非常有效的管控但是本席告訴你我們在坊間聽到的不一樣的一個方向所以本席剛剛所說的虛擬貨幣我們的幣商交易以及網路平台通訊軟體這三不管地帶你們必須好好的去整合因此我要告訴你"},{"start":412.557,"end":422.843,"text":"鎖法合法的業者納入工會但是我們還有一些非常不鎖法的在網路世界 怎麼辦呢 你是政府啊當然要加強這個部分當然要加強這個部分當然要加強 怎麼加強呢當然要加強 怎麼加強呢我們民眾苦不堪言"},{"start":428.41,"end":446.535,"text":"已經在做 你好好去經濟好不好也把時間點給我們好不好接下來我要告訴你因為在這個國家政策研究基金會裡頭給你的一個民調也就是在政府打詐司法跟青年方面的44.8%的民眾是認為我們對於打擊詐騙是表示不滿的"},{"start":451.616,"end":478.399,"text":"那其中還有一個更重要的因子也就是50到69歲的族群他是感受最深在這樣的情況之下本席要請教要請教院長就是打詐的成效那這個案件跟金額他是雙雙惡化所以民眾會恐慌那所以本席要請教的就是說那打詐呢 詐團他有恃無恐"},{"start":479.039,"end":507.49,"text":"那你主謀銷完法外 金流跟跨境的鏈結你沒有去把它破解那當然民眾是沒有辦法求償所以你們不斷的在宣導說所謂的市詐 賭詐 房詐 主詐 以及懲詐但到目前為止 似乎它的成效是不足以去壓制這些犯罪者的行為所以在這邊本席要特別要告訴你一點也就是你跨部會"},{"start":508.51,"end":520.717,"text":"跨部會本來你們從打造辦公室然後改制為指揮中心從去年的8月27號你的指揮中心但是你跨部會的整合你滿意嗎院長你滿意嗎"},{"start":523.479,"end":545.505,"text":"他們逐步在推動是各種的事務逐步的在推動我們已經一年了人員的部分我們會適度的加強人員部分要適度加強表示你也不滿意嘛提到剛剛法治化的問題也是我們現在在想的方式如何提升它的效率這是一年指揮中心正式成立一年之後院長你告訴我們的"},{"start":546.445,"end":562.346,"text":"我們也民眾是苦不堪言的情況之下我們希望政府有方法能夠保護民眾所以本席具體建議跨部會的協調是失靈的因為金管會 NCC 警政 移民 外交它各自為政嘛"},{"start":562.907,"end":582.056,"text":"他沒有共享資源沒有共享資訊所以他當然沒有辦法有一個美好的成果一個成效出來所以本席要特別請教未來在整個跨部會的一個戰核資源裡頭你要怎麼做我覺得本席希望聽到這個部分請說明"},{"start":583.567,"end":591.254,"text":"我們現在打造指揮中心有新的指揮官他全力的在做這些內部的管控問題那麼我們的165專線將來會做更多的"},{"start":595.12,"end":623.325,"text":"平行的整合如果我們有一天這個165跟打炸這個把它法制化之後會更進一步符合剛剛委員所說的165法制化什麼時候要法制化我們就朝這個方向什麼時候請教 請教院長那剛剛我已經指示內政部盡快就近期的對這些人員的一些鼓勵方面近期擬定一個方法出來那麼把它法制化的過程現在也提出一個方式我們正在審議中正在考慮當中"},{"start":624.005,"end":638.274,"text":"正在考慮跟審議當中 你要盡快要盡快 你有沒有你的指標預計在什麼時候可以成行我已經指示內政部 請內政部盡快來提出一個方案內政部有時間點嗎可以告訴我們民眾嗎"},{"start":640.221,"end":656.437,"text":"我們不能讓這個空窗期這麼長啊不會 我知道大家都非常的殷切期盼所以我這個會請內政部儘速完成儘速完成所以現在沒有辦法時間告訴我們法制化必須要有一個過程所以你也把這個繳成"},{"start":658.218,"end":685.669,"text":"可以同步進行的 同步進行盡快告訴我們盡快讓民眾可以安心我們拭目以待同時我要給院長說明的打仗司法的時候包括了科技偵查當時我們不分藍綠白一起好好的幫助這個國家能夠讓人民安心所以甚至在整個科技偵查裡頭大家努力的協商終於也放在刑事訴訟法裡頭的專章裡頭"},{"start":687.33,"end":702.773,"text":"甚至本席所提案的我們的洗錢防治法15條之一之二也就是事先將這些你沒有理由的在蒐集這些帳號那你就要出動了我們用法讓執行者有所依歸有能夠有成效"},{"start":703.474,"end":719.884,"text":"這個是大家努力的能夠希望將這個成軍讓民眾可以安心可以打擊這些詐騙這是大家一起努力的我們一起努力通過這個打詐司法的時候這個狀況稍微有一點穩住沒有這樣急需的變化 變壞"},{"start":720.805,"end":749.605,"text":"院長你講這個就是你真的要加油因為打詐司法之前跟之後我告訴你我們被詐的數字金額是增加的所以你好好的去檢討這一塊接下來本席要告訴你也就是這個假釋的詐欺犯他能夠假釋出來詐騙了300萬他也約與你政府只苛扣了這個7200萬要賺錢的找我這可以嗎"},{"start":751.662,"end":779.154,"text":"請教這可以嗎這剛剛說這可以嗎已經移送雲林地檢數了這可以嗎在8月10幾號已經移送這個案子已經移送雲林當然這個行為絕對不可取行為不可取而且我們要杜絕就是要對這個案子速查速辦對他已經移送院長你這樣就對了速查速辦不可以這樣子囂張啊他已經移送了還可以如此的囂張因為你政府絕對不行"},{"start":780.095,"end":803.875,"text":"挑釁我們民眾 這不行的臺灣是一個溫暖的國家是一個安定的國家不容許如此 恕神恕敗 是不是再接下來假冒公務人員我們不斷的也要宣導但是剛才本席說到的50到69歲的人是對於打仗他不安心的"},{"start":804.932,"end":829.72,"text":"感受最深所以因此也有詐騙的他現在已經是高度的組織化了高度的組織化所以他鎖定什麼高年齡層高年齡層所以政府對於我們這樣子的高年齡層你有什麼方案比如說本席提出的你的電信異常偵測還有你的家屬通知這個都必須在第一時間我們至少還可以防堵"},{"start":830.629,"end":854.836,"text":"院長對於高年齡層這麼受害你認為我們有什麼經濟方案我們對於青年退休的族群以及一些特定的族群我們都把它當作一個最容易受到詐騙的退休的族群我們把它當作一個最容易受到詐騙集團去引誘的一些對象所以我們用"},{"start":856.007,"end":870.246,"text":"科技的方式來分析把這些族群找出來之後我們現在已經是用至少用一些簡訊通知告訴他們有一些詐騙的行為要他們能夠知道這個現境你不要輕易的進入同時也對這些"},{"start":871.167,"end":885.917,"text":"行為的這個潛在的被害人我們透過AI的方式 科技的方式把他們找出來給他們施予更多的視乍的教育的都有這麼多的方式但是你的成效是不髒的這表示我們的方法還有精進的"},{"start":887.118,"end":906.298,"text":"這個空間絕對是所以本席具體建議您在下個會期請提出具體的防詐騙的政策目標明確的告知各部會你們的行政你們的行動分工到底要怎麼分工必須要明確讓"},{"start":908.4,"end":924.756,"text":"民眾對於我們檢警調以及我們的政府他是有信任的而且本家要求必須對於我們長者的宣導必須要擴大你能夠做得到嗎好的 我們會提出一套完整的方式我請內政部來主辦跟法務部來協辦好 謝謝謝謝楊承英委員資訊謝謝卓院長備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":365,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（15時52分）謝謝院會主席，楊瓊瓔發言，首先邀請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長好。根據官方打詐儀表板統計，我們在114年7月份查獲詐團228團、1,826人，比6月份少了4團、少了125人，但我們認為成效是有限的；查扣不法所得的部分是四億多，將近五億，當然比6月份少了一點點，少了一成左右。所以我們認為，到目前為止，我們的攔阻金額雖然有到13億，但跟全國詐騙財損的部分85億以上相較還是差距很大。從打詐儀表板上面，我們來看歷史，112年是89億、3萬7,823件；113年是502億元，案件是12萬2,805件；今（114）年1月到7月份總共有10萬5,311件，金額是565億，換句話說，今年上半年就比去年一整年的金額還更多。在這樣的情況之下，縱使行政院相關單位告訴我們是計算方式不一樣，但這是政府公告的打詐儀表板。","所以本席要再請教，7月份裡頭我們看到，到底是為什麼會有這樣的一個社會現象產生？7月份涉及網路媒體詐騙的，我們當然也努力下架了很多，但是詐騙的內容仍舊在各平臺裡頭層出不窮。換句話說，顯示政府在行動方面還有很大的討論空間，也就是還未能有效地去壓制這一些犯罪。虛擬貨幣的幣商交易、網路平臺跟通訊軟體仍舊是三不管地帶，這三方如果未能有效管理，那麼當然我們打詐國家隊的成績是得不到民眾的信任。","本席首先提出這樣的背景給你我要請教，打詐國家隊運作了將近一年，為什麼詐騙案件和金額不減反增？跨境詐騙方面，外交和司法的合作我們又有什麼精進的方案？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們剛剛說所謂統計數字的不同，是從去年8月之前和8月之後，依照它的發生狀況，我們採取的態樣不同，以前是以一個犯罪行為人一個案件來處理，後來改變為一個犯罪行為人騙了十個人就會有十個案件，以這樣的方式來處理，所以數量會有所改變、有所不同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是本席要跟卓院長分享，即便是一件，或者是把一件拆成十件，這些數字實際上會讓民眾對於詐騙非常恐慌……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這只是我們內控上面的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們討論這個數字是沒有意義的，我們要聽到方案以及您的精進！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我剛剛有提到，這是我們內控上一個考核的機制。剛剛您有說到網路平臺、通訊軟體以及虛擬貨幣，在數位網路平臺方面，現在我們已經要求四大平臺──Meta、IG、Google還有YouTube，再加上Threads，總共五個平臺，Threads在9月份也會要求它落地管理、實名制，這樣會有助於我們對這些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：9月份是下個月嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，其他都有了，前面四個都有了，就是Threads這個部分會在9月份要求它也要照我們打詐新法所規定的，要在這裡落地、實名制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，deadline的時間請Threads在9月份的時候也要強制執行之。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，它必須接受我們的管制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請繼續說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：另外就是虛擬貨幣，這個我們現在……當然，它的成效比較不明顯，因為它畢竟是一個很新興的取代貨幣的行為，但是接下來，我們的金管會會從貨幣發行幣商、服務幣商的管理，讓它成為一個公會，將它納入我們公會的管理，之後我們會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：納入公會的管理是不是從根源來管理？本席這個解讀正確嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：納入公會的管理，從根本來解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會為它成立一個公會，讓它在裡面，第一個是要自律，第二，我們用法律來管理。再請彭主委來說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請做說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，有關虛擬資產的部分，先跟委員說明一下，我們的專法在6月27日已經送進行政院，現在已經在加緊審議中。其次，我們去年11月30日通過登記制以後，會課以刑責，這部分是我們第一步的管理。","剛剛院長提到組公會的部分，現在所有VASP、虛擬資產業者的公會已經開始運作了，比如說最近，我們在5月就禁止他們用現金交易……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你們這樣的方案要什麼時間才可以成形？因為民眾苦不堪言。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在已經在做了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們有方法，本席要給予肯定，但是你要告訴我們答案，你們一定有你們的KPI啊！什麼時候公會才可以成形啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：公會已經成形了，已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們政府才可以管控啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：去年已經成立，已經開始運作了。再跟委員報告，比如說我們今年5月就看到一個現金交易的問題，就直接把現金禁掉了，所以我們對這個部分就做了很有效的納管。這是其中一個措施，接下來比如說我們對於所有虛擬資產業者的管控，從原來最高的26家，到現在大概只剩下14家，因為對於不合規的，我們全部把它淘汰掉了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，您聽到你的單位主管說是非常有效的管控，但是本席要告訴你，我們在坊間聽到的是不一樣的方向。本席剛剛所說的虛擬貨幣，幣商交易以及網路平臺、通訊軟體這個三不管地帶，你們必須要好好地去整合。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們現在對這些比較……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因此我要告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在將守法、合法的業者納入公會，但是還有一些非常不守法的，在網路世界、數位……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那要怎麼辦呢？你是政府啊！怎麼管控呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們當然要加強這個部分，這樣才能把他們導入正軌。……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：說要加強，怎麼加強呢？我們民眾苦不堪言耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們好好去精進好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也把時間點給我們好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我要告訴你，國家政策研究基金會有一個民調，指出在政府打詐、司法和清廉方面，有44.8%的民眾對於打擊詐騙是不滿的，其中還有一個更重要的因子，也就是50到69歲的族群感受最深。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教院長打詐的成效，因為案件和金額雙雙惡化，令民眾感到恐慌，所以本席要請教的就是打詐，但是詐團有恃無恐，主謀逍遙法外，金流跟跨境的鏈結，你沒有去把它破解，當然民眾是求償無門，沒有辦法求償。所以你們不斷的在宣導所謂的識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐以及懲詐，但是到目前為止，似乎它的成效是不足以去壓制這些犯罪者的行為。所以在這邊，本席要特別告訴你一點，也就是跨部會，本來你們從打詐辦公室，然後改制為指揮中心，從去年8月27日改制為指揮中心，但是跨部會的整合，你滿意嗎？院長，你滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們逐步在推動各種的事務，那麼人員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：逐步在推動？我們已經一年了！"],["卓院長榮泰：人員的部分，我們會適度的加強。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人員部分要適度加強，表示你也不滿意嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛也一直提到法制化的問題，也是我們現在在想的方式，如何提升它的效率。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是指揮中心正式成立一年之後，院長告訴我們的，在民眾苦不堪言的情況之下，我們希望政府有方法能夠保護民眾，所以本席具體建議，跨部會的協調是失靈的，因為金管會、NCC、警政、移民、外交各自為政，沒有共享資源、沒有共享資訊，所以它當然沒有辦法有一個美好的成果、有一個成效出來，所以本席要特別請教，未來在整個跨部會的整合資源裡頭，你要怎麼做？本席希望聽到這個部分，請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們打詐指揮中心有新的指揮官，他全力的在做這些內部的管控問題，那麼我們165專線將來會做更多平行的整合，如果我們有一天把165跟打詐指揮中心法制化之後，會更進一步符合剛剛委員所說的，現在我們是朝……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：165法制化，什麼時候要法制化？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就朝這個方向在進行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候？請教院長，165法制化。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我已經指示內政部儘快對於這些人員的鼓勵方面，近期擬定一個方法出來，把它法制化的過程，現在也提出一個方式，我們正在審議中，正在考慮當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：正在考慮跟審議當中，你要儘快啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要儘快，你有沒有相關指標，預計在什麼時候可以成形？"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經指示內政部，請內政部儘快提出一個方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：內政部有時間點嗎？可以告訴我們民眾嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然可以儘快……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不能讓這個空窗期這麼長啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，我知道大家都非常殷切期盼，所以我會請內政部儘速完成，最快的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：儘速完成，所以現在還沒有辦法把時間告訴我們？"],["卓院長榮泰：法制化必須要有一個過程。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這個過程可以同步進行的，儘快告訴我們，儘快讓民眾可以安心，我們拭目以待。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望它在今年這個年度裡面能夠有所進展。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，同時我要給院長說明的是，制定打詐四法的時候，包括了科技偵查，當時我們不分藍、綠、白，一起好好的幫助這個國家，能夠讓人民安心，甚至在整個科技偵查裡頭，大家努力的協商，終於也放在刑事訴訟法的專章裡頭，甚至本席所提案的洗錢防制法第十五條之一、第十五條之二，也就是對於這些沒有理由在收集的這些帳號，你就要出動了，我們用法讓執行者有所依歸，能夠有成效，這個是大家努力的，希望這個能夠成軍，讓民眾可以安心，可以打擊這些詐騙，這是大家一起努力的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員有沒有覺得大院和我們這樣一起努力通過這個打詐四法之後，這個狀況稍微有一點穩住，沒有這樣急遽的變壞，我們希望能夠把它往下降。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你講這個就是你真的要加油，因為打詐四法制定之前跟之後，我告訴你，我們被詐的數字、金額是增加的，所以你好好的去檢討這一塊。","接下來本席要告訴你，也就是這個假釋的詐欺犯，他詐騙了300萬，還能夠被假釋出來，他還揶揄你政府只課扣了7,200元，還說要賺錢的找他，這可以嗎？請教，這可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這剛剛說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經移送雲林地檢署了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在八月十幾號已經移送，這個案子已經移送雲林地檢署，當然這個行為絕對不可取，而且我們要杜絕，就是要對這個案子速查速辦，他已經移送了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！院長，你這樣就對了！速查速辦，不可以這樣子囂張啊！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：他已經移送了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你這樣就對了，速查速辦，不可以這樣囂張，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！他已經移送了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還可以如此的囂張，揶揄我們政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對不行！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：挑釁我們民眾，這是不行的，臺灣是一個溫暖的國家，是一個安定的國家，不容許如此，所以速審速辦，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，針對假冒公務人員一事，我們也要不斷宣導，就像剛剛本席說的，50到69歲的人，他對於打詐是最不安心、感受最深的，詐騙集團現在已經是高度組織化，所以他鎖定什麼？鎖定高年齡層，請問政府對於我們這些高年齡層的長者，有什麼方案？例如本席提出的，電信異常偵測，還有家屬通知，這些都必須在第一時間做到，至少還可以防堵。院長，對於高年齡層受害，你認為我們有什麼精進方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：對於青年、退休族群，以及一些特定族群，我們都把他當作一個最容易受到詐騙的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：高齡，本席跟你討論的是高齡的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是退休的族群，我們把他當作是最容易受到詐騙集團引誘的一些對象，所以我們用科技的方式來分析，把這些族群找出來之後，現在至少已經用一些簡訊通知、告訴他們一些詐騙的行為，讓他們知道這些是陷阱，不要輕易進入，同時也對這些行為的潛在被害人，透過AI方式、科技方式把他們找出來，施予他們更多識詐的、教育的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都有這麼多方式，但是你的成效是不彰的，這表示我們的方法還有精進的空間……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：絕對是，所以本席具體建議，請你在下個會期提出具體防詐騙的政策目標，明確說明跨部會行動分工，讓民眾對於檢、警、調及我們的政府是有信任的，而且本席還要求對於我們長者的宣導必須要擴大，你能夠做得到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們會提出一套完整的方式，我請內政部來主辦，法務部來協辦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員質詢，也謝謝卓院長備詢。","報告院會，非常感謝黃健豪委員、劉書彬委員以及林月琴委員在下午的專案報告會議一直陪同我們參與。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（16時7分）","繼續開會（16時18分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163542","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163542","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6a8409dc6e507b41718cf3659852ed2502cb3399e5ac5383139aef444138061ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:43:52 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通訊軟體啦以及這個虛擬貨幣我們在這個數位的網路平台上面現在我們已經要求這四大的平台Meta、IG、Google還有YouTube再加上Trade五個平台Trade在九月份也會要求它落地管理實名制這樣會有助於我們對於九月份是下個月嗎"},{"start":262.916,"end":290.644,"text":"對其他都有了 全面四個都有了就是Trade這個部分會在九月份要求他也要照我們新的打炸心法裡面所規定要在這裡落地實名制定在的時間請Trade要在九月份的時候也要強制執行制他必須接受我們的管制那麼另外就是虛擬貨幣這個我們現在當然他的成效比較不明顯因為他到底是一個很新興的一個取代一個貨幣的一個行為但是接著我們這個金管會會從"},{"start":292.663,"end":306.969,"text":"貨幣發行幣商服務幣商的這個管理讓他成為一個公會讓他納入我們公會的管理之後納入公會的管理從根源來管理 是否這個解讀正確嗎納入公會的管理"},{"start":308.172,"end":326.464,"text":"從根本來解決我們為他成為一個工會 讓他在裡面第一個是要自律 第二我們用法律上來管理再請這個彭主席來做說明我想剛剛有關那個虛擬資產的先跟委員說明一下我們那個專法在6月27號已經送進 現在在審議中現在已經在加緊審議中"},{"start":327.725,"end":351.13,"text":"在我們去年11月30號通過了這個登記制以後呢可以行者這部分是我們第一步的管理剛剛院長有提到就是說我們組工會的部分他們我們把就現在所謂的VASP就是虛擬資產業者的工會現在已經開始運作了像比如最近呢我們在5月的時候請問你們這樣的方案要什麼樣什麼時間可以承行因為民眾苦不堪言"},{"start":352.03,"end":378.349,"text":"其實我們現在的你們有方法給予肯定但是你要告訴我們答案你們一定有你們的KPI你什麼時候公會他可以成行我們政府可以管控去年已經成立已經開始運作像比如說在跟委員報告我們今天5月就看到現金交易的問題我們就直接把現金禁掉所以我們在這一部分我們把這個就做得很有效納管這是其中一個措施"},{"start":379.05,"end":389.265,"text":"接下來比如說我們對於所有虛擬資產業者的管控我們從原來最高的26到現在的話我們大概只剩下14家因為對不合規的我們全部把它淘汰掉"},{"start":390.916,"end":413.682,"text":"院長您聽到你的單位主管說是非常有效的管控但是本席告訴你我們在坊間聽到的不一樣的一個方向所以本席剛剛所說的虛擬貨幣我們的幣商交易以及網路平台通訊軟體這三不管地帶你們必須好好的去整合所以因此我要告訴你"},{"start":414.322,"end":424.429,"text":"對 守法合法的業者納入工會但是我們還有一些非常不守法的在網路世界數位率所以我們還要加強這個部分當然要加強這個部分當然要加強 怎麼加強呢我民眾苦不堪言"},{"start":430.407,"end":448.565,"text":"已經在做 你好好去經濟好不好也把時間點給我們好不好接下來我要告訴你因為在這個國家政策研究基金會裡頭給你的一個民調也就是在政府打詐司法跟青年方面的44.8%的民眾是認為我們對於打擊詐騙是表示不滿的"},{"start":453.81,"end":480.393,"text":"其中還有一個更重要的因子也就是50到69歲的族群他是感受最深在這樣的情況之下本席要請教院長就是打詐的成效這個案件跟金額他是雙雙惡化所以民眾會恐慌所以本席要請教的就是說那打詐 詐團他有恃無恐"},{"start":481.053,"end":509.504,"text":"那你主謀消耗法外金流跟跨境的鏈結你沒有去把它破解那當然民眾是沒有辦法求償所以你們不斷的在宣導說所謂的市詐 賭詐 房詐 主詐 以及懲詐但到目前為止似乎它的成效是不足以去壓制這些犯罪者的行為所以在這邊本席要特別要告訴你一點也就是你跨部會"},{"start":510.524,"end":522.891,"text":"跨部會本來你們從打造辦公室然後改制為指揮中心從去年的8月27號你的指揮中心但是你跨部會的整合你滿意嗎院長你滿意嗎"},{"start":525.492,"end":547.599,"text":"他們逐步在推動是各種的事務逐步的在推動我們已經一年了人員的部分我們會適度的加強人員部分要適度加強表示你也不滿意嘛提到剛剛法制化的問題也是我們現在在想的方式如果提升它的效率這是一年指揮中心正式成立一年之後院長你告訴我們的"},{"start":548.459,"end":564.36,"text":"我們也民眾是苦不堪言的情況之下我們希望政府有方法能夠保護民眾所以本席具體建議跨部會的協調是失靈的因為金管會 NCC 警政 移民 外交它各自為政嘛"},{"start":564.921,"end":584.115,"text":"他沒有共享資源沒有共享資訊所以他當然沒有辦法有一個美好的成果一個成效出來所以本席要特別請教未來在整個跨部會的一個綻合資源裡頭你要怎麼做我覺得本席希望聽到這個部分請說明"},{"start":585.58,"end":593.895,"text":"我們現在打造指揮中心有新的指揮官他全力的在做這些內部的管控問題那麼我們的165專線將來會做更多的"},{"start":597.113,"end":625.339,"text":"平行的整合如果我們有一天這個165跟打炸這個把它法制化之後會更進一步符合剛剛委員所說的165法制化什麼時候要法制化我們就朝這個方向什麼時候請教院長那剛剛已經指示內政部盡快就近期的對這些人員的一些鼓勵方面近期擬定一個方法出來那麼把它法制化的過程現在也提出一個方式我們正在審議中正在考慮當中"},{"start":625.998,"end":640.286,"text":"正在考慮跟審議當中 你要盡快要盡快 你有沒有你的指標預計在什麼時候可以成行我已經指示內政部 請內政部盡快來提出一個方案內政部有時間點嗎可以告訴我們民眾嗎"},{"start":642.234,"end":658.572,"text":"我們不能讓這個空窗期這麼長啊不會 我知道大家都非常的殷切期盼所以我這個會請內政部儘速完成儘速完成所以現在沒有辦法時間告訴我們法治化必須要有一個過程所以你也把這個繳成"},{"start":660.214,"end":687.685,"text":"可以同步進行的 同步進行儘快告訴我們 儘快讓民眾可以安心我們拭目以待同時我要給院長說明的 打仗司法的時候包括了科技偵查當時我們不分藍綠白一起好好的幫助這個國家能夠讓人民安心所以甚至在整個科技偵查裡頭大家努力的協商終於也放在刑事訴訟法裡頭的專章裡頭"},{"start":689.326,"end":704.751,"text":"甚至本席所提案的我們的洗錢防治法15條之一之二也就是事先將這些你沒有理由的在收集這些帳號那你就要出動了我們用法讓執行者有所依歸有能夠有成效"},{"start":705.491,"end":721.881,"text":"這個是大家努力的能夠希望將這個成軍讓民眾可以安心可以打擊這些詐騙這是大家一起努力的我們一起努力通過這個打詐司法的時候這個狀況稍微有一點穩住沒有這樣急需的變化變壞"},{"start":722.802,"end":751.602,"text":"院長你講這個就是你真的要加油因為打詐司法之前跟之後我告訴你我們被詐的數字金額是增加的所以你好好的去檢討這一塊接下來本席要告訴你也就是這個假釋的詐欺犯他能夠假釋出來詐騙了300萬他也約與你政府只苛扣了這個7200萬要賺錢的找我這可以嗎"},{"start":753.656,"end":781.151,"text":"請教這可以嗎這剛剛說這可以嗎已經移送雲林地檢數了這可以嗎在8月10幾號已經移送這個案子已經移送雲林當然這個行為絕對不可取而且我們要杜絕就是要對這個案子速查速辦對他已經移送院長你這樣就對了速查速辦不可以這樣子囂張啊他已經移送還可以如此的囂張因為你政府絕對不行"},{"start":782.092,"end":805.872,"text":"挑釁我們民眾 這不行的臺灣是一個溫暖的國家是一個安定的國家不容許如此 恕神恕敗 是不是再接下來假冒公務人員我們不斷的也要宣導但是剛才本席說到的50到69歲的人是對於打仗他不安心的"},{"start":806.926,"end":831.73,"text":"感受最深所以因此也有詐騙的他現在已經是高度的組織化了高度的組織化所以他鎖定什麼高年齡層高年齡層所以政府對於我們這樣子的高年齡層你有什麼方案比如說本席提出的你的電信異常偵測還有你的家屬通知這個都必須在第一時間我們至少還可以防堵"},{"start":832.625,"end":856.84,"text":"院長對於高年齡層這麼受害你認為我們有什麼經濟方案我們對於青年退休的族群以及一些特定的族群我們都把它當作一個最容易受到詐騙的退休就是退休的族群我們把它當作一個最容易受到詐騙集團去引誘的一些對象所以我們用"},{"start":858.021,"end":872.25,"text":"科技的方式來分析把這些族群找出來之後我們現在已經是用至少用一些簡訊通知告訴他們有一些詐騙的行為要他們能夠知道這個陷阱你不要輕易的進入同時也對這些"},{"start":873.17,"end":887.917,"text":"行為的這個潛在的被害人我們透過AI的方式 科技的方式把他們找出來給他們施予更多的視乍的教育的都有這麼多的方式但是你的成效是不髒的這表示我們的方法還有精進的"},{"start":889.117,"end":908.292,"text":"這個空間絕對是所以本席具體建議您在下個會期請提出具體的防詐騙的政策目標明確的告知各部會你們的行政你們的行動分工到底要怎麼分工必須要明確讓"},{"start":910.393,"end":927.348,"text":"民眾對於我們檢警調以及我們的政府他是有信任的而且本期要求必須對於我們長者的宣導必須要擴大你能夠做得到嗎好的我們會提出一套完整的方式我請內政部來主辦跟法務部來協辦好謝謝謝謝楊承英委員資訊謝謝卓院長備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":365,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（15時52分）謝謝院會主席，楊瓊瓔發言，首先邀請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長好。根據官方打詐儀表板統計，我們在114年7月份查獲詐團228團、1,826人，比6月份少了4團、少了125人，但我們認為成效是有限的；查扣不法所得的部分是四億多，將近五億，當然比6月份少了一點點，少了一成左右。所以我們認為，到目前為止，我們的攔阻金額雖然有到13億，但跟全國詐騙財損的部分85億以上相較還是差距很大。從打詐儀表板上面，我們來看歷史，112年是89億、3萬7,823件；113年是502億元，案件是12萬2,805件；今（114）年1月到7月份總共有10萬5,311件，金額是565億，換句話說，今年上半年就比去年一整年的金額還更多。在這樣的情況之下，縱使行政院相關單位告訴我們是計算方式不一樣，但這是政府公告的打詐儀表板。","所以本席要再請教，7月份裡頭我們看到，到底是為什麼會有這樣的一個社會現象產生？7月份涉及網路媒體詐騙的，我們當然也努力下架了很多，但是詐騙的內容仍舊在各平臺裡頭層出不窮。換句話說，顯示政府在行動方面還有很大的討論空間，也就是還未能有效地去壓制這一些犯罪。虛擬貨幣的幣商交易、網路平臺跟通訊軟體仍舊是三不管地帶，這三方如果未能有效管理，那麼當然我們打詐國家隊的成績是得不到民眾的信任。","本席首先提出這樣的背景給你我要請教，打詐國家隊運作了將近一年，為什麼詐騙案件和金額不減反增？跨境詐騙方面，外交和司法的合作我們又有什麼精進的方案？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們剛剛說所謂統計數字的不同，是從去年8月之前和8月之後，依照它的發生狀況，我們採取的態樣不同，以前是以一個犯罪行為人一個案件來處理，後來改變為一個犯罪行為人騙了十個人就會有十個案件，以這樣的方式來處理，所以數量會有所改變、有所不同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是本席要跟卓院長分享，即便是一件，或者是把一件拆成十件，這些數字實際上會讓民眾對於詐騙非常恐慌……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這只是我們內控上面的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們討論這個數字是沒有意義的，我們要聽到方案以及您的精進！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我剛剛有提到，這是我們內控上一個考核的機制。剛剛您有說到網路平臺、通訊軟體以及虛擬貨幣，在數位網路平臺方面，現在我們已經要求四大平臺──Meta、IG、Google還有YouTube，再加上Threads，總共五個平臺，Threads在9月份也會要求它落地管理、實名制，這樣會有助於我們對這些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：9月份是下個月嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，其他都有了，前面四個都有了，就是Threads這個部分會在9月份要求它也要照我們打詐新法所規定的，要在這裡落地、實名制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，deadline的時間請Threads在9月份的時候也要強制執行之。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，它必須接受我們的管制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請繼續說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：另外就是虛擬貨幣，這個我們現在……當然，它的成效比較不明顯，因為它畢竟是一個很新興的取代貨幣的行為，但是接下來，我們的金管會會從貨幣發行幣商、服務幣商的管理，讓它成為一個公會，將它納入我們公會的管理，之後我們會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：納入公會的管理是不是從根源來管理？本席這個解讀正確嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：什麼？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：納入公會的管理，從根本來解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會為它成立一個公會，讓它在裡面，第一個是要自律，第二，我們用法律來管理。再請彭主委來說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請做說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，有關虛擬資產的部分，先跟委員說明一下，我們的專法在6月27日已經送進行政院，現在已經在加緊審議中。其次，我們去年11月30日通過登記制以後，會課以刑責，這部分是我們第一步的管理。","剛剛院長提到組公會的部分，現在所有VASP、虛擬資產業者的公會已經開始運作了，比如說最近，我們在5月就禁止他們用現金交易……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你們這樣的方案要什麼時間才可以成形？因為民眾苦不堪言。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在已經在做了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們有方法，本席要給予肯定，但是你要告訴我們答案，你們一定有你們的KPI啊！什麼時候公會才可以成形啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：公會已經成形了，已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們政府才可以管控啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：去年已經成立，已經開始運作了。再跟委員報告，比如說我們今年5月就看到一個現金交易的問題，就直接把現金禁掉了，所以我們對這個部分就做了很有效的納管。這是其中一個措施，接下來比如說我們對於所有虛擬資產業者的管控，從原來最高的26家，到現在大概只剩下14家，因為對於不合規的，我們全部把它淘汰掉了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，您聽到你的單位主管說是非常有效的管控，但是本席要告訴你，我們在坊間聽到的是不一樣的方向。本席剛剛所說的虛擬貨幣，幣商交易以及網路平臺、通訊軟體這個三不管地帶，你們必須要好好地去整合。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們現在對這些比較……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因此我要告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在將守法、合法的業者納入公會，但是還有一些非常不守法的，在網路世界、數位……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那要怎麼辦呢？你是政府啊！怎麼管控呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們當然要加強這個部分，這樣才能把他們導入正軌。……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：說要加強，怎麼加強呢？我們民眾苦不堪言耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們好好去精進好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也把時間點給我們好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我要告訴你，國家政策研究基金會有一個民調，指出在政府打詐、司法和清廉方面，有44.8%的民眾對於打擊詐騙是不滿的，其中還有一個更重要的因子，也就是50到69歲的族群感受最深。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教院長打詐的成效，因為案件和金額雙雙惡化，令民眾感到恐慌，所以本席要請教的就是打詐，但是詐團有恃無恐，主謀逍遙法外，金流跟跨境的鏈結，你沒有去把它破解，當然民眾是求償無門，沒有辦法求償。所以你們不斷的在宣導所謂的識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐以及懲詐，但是到目前為止，似乎它的成效是不足以去壓制這些犯罪者的行為。所以在這邊，本席要特別告訴你一點，也就是跨部會，本來你們從打詐辦公室，然後改制為指揮中心，從去年8月27日改制為指揮中心，但是跨部會的整合，你滿意嗎？院長，你滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他們逐步在推動各種的事務，那麼人員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：逐步在推動？我們已經一年了！"],["卓院長榮泰：人員的部分，我們會適度的加強。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人員部分要適度加強，表示你也不滿意嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛也一直提到法制化的問題，也是我們現在在想的方式，如何提升它的效率。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是指揮中心正式成立一年之後，院長告訴我們的，在民眾苦不堪言的情況之下，我們希望政府有方法能夠保護民眾，所以本席具體建議，跨部會的協調是失靈的，因為金管會、NCC、警政、移民、外交各自為政，沒有共享資源、沒有共享資訊，所以它當然沒有辦法有一個美好的成果、有一個成效出來，所以本席要特別請教，未來在整個跨部會的整合資源裡頭，你要怎麼做？本席希望聽到這個部分，請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們打詐指揮中心有新的指揮官，他全力的在做這些內部的管控問題，那麼我們165專線將來會做更多平行的整合，如果我們有一天把165跟打詐指揮中心法制化之後，會更進一步符合剛剛委員所說的，現在我們是朝……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：165法制化，什麼時候要法制化？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就朝這個方向在進行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候？請教院長，165法制化。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我已經指示內政部儘快對於這些人員的鼓勵方面，近期擬定一個方法出來，把它法制化的過程，現在也提出一個方式，我們正在審議中，正在考慮當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：正在考慮跟審議當中，你要儘快啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要儘快，你有沒有相關指標，預計在什麼時候可以成形？"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經指示內政部，請內政部儘快提出一個方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：內政部有時間點嗎？可以告訴我們民眾嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然可以儘快……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們不能讓這個空窗期這麼長啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，我知道大家都非常殷切期盼，所以我會請內政部儘速完成，最快的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：儘速完成，所以現在還沒有辦法把時間告訴我們？"],["卓院長榮泰：法制化必須要有一個過程。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這個過程可以同步進行的，儘快告訴我們，儘快讓民眾可以安心，我們拭目以待。"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望它在今年這個年度裡面能夠有所進展。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，同時我要給院長說明的是，制定打詐四法的時候，包括了科技偵查，當時我們不分藍、綠、白，一起好好的幫助這個國家，能夠讓人民安心，甚至在整個科技偵查裡頭，大家努力的協商，終於也放在刑事訴訟法的專章裡頭，甚至本席所提案的洗錢防制法第十五條之一、第十五條之二，也就是對於這些沒有理由在收集的這些帳號，你就要出動了，我們用法讓執行者有所依歸，能夠有成效，這個是大家努力的，希望這個能夠成軍，讓民眾可以安心，可以打擊這些詐騙，這是大家一起努力的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員有沒有覺得大院和我們這樣一起努力通過這個打詐四法之後，這個狀況稍微有一點穩住，沒有這樣急遽的變壞，我們希望能夠把它往下降。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你講這個就是你真的要加油，因為打詐四法制定之前跟之後，我告訴你，我們被詐的數字、金額是增加的，所以你好好的去檢討這一塊。","接下來本席要告訴你，也就是這個假釋的詐欺犯，他詐騙了300萬，還能夠被假釋出來，他還揶揄你政府只課扣了7,200元，還說要賺錢的找他，這可以嗎？請教，這可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這剛剛說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經移送雲林地檢署了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：在八月十幾號已經移送，這個案子已經移送雲林地檢署，當然這個行為絕對不可取，而且我們要杜絕，就是要對這個案子速查速辦，他已經移送了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！院長，你這樣就對了！速查速辦，不可以這樣子囂張啊！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：他已經移送了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你這樣就對了，速查速辦，不可以這樣囂張，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！他已經移送了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還可以如此的囂張，揶揄我們政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對不行！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：挑釁我們民眾，這是不行的，臺灣是一個溫暖的國家，是一個安定的國家，不容許如此，所以速審速辦，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員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流通性也有有了穩定幣之後等於是說他們能夠連價值儲存的功能都具備價值甚至不會因為市場的波動而去縮水它又變成了新時代的一個洗錢的工具"},{"start":101.963,"end":122.997,"text":"我講這麼多的原因是因為在穩定幣雖然是號稱有基於去中心化的技術但是它的發行卻是基於高度中心化的這些發行商所以從這些發行商來去做技術上的凍結特定地址的資產的權利是有的比如說美國司法部就曾經成功的要求泰達公司凍結這個泰達幣"},{"start":126.169,"end":146.842,"text":"我們在未發生之前我們先做防範它的效用會更大我想請教院長我們是不是也可以和泰達這些主要的穩定幣發行商直接建立快速的緊急聯繫跟凍結機制在黃金時間裡面例如說24小時內請求這些發行商對這些涉詐的錢包進行預防性的凍結然後之後再補足司法程序"},{"start":148.604,"end":169.413,"text":"是跟委員報告一下啊當然最近有關穩定幣的這樣的一個那個討論非常的多那當然剛剛委員有提到就是說我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面呢也有這一塊剛剛委員提到說我們可不可以透過特定的穩定幣商去做這樣的合作我想那個層面蠻多的因為"},{"start":170.313,"end":189.394,"text":"特別是剛剛提到這家其實在國際上面它有它很大的特色它是一個受監管比較低度的一個美國穩定幣發行商它比如現在的潮流是希望能夠接受高度的監管泰達它也想說可不可以在有些境內接受高度的監管境外它還是維持這樣這個東西我們"},{"start":191.796,"end":210.703,"text":"當然就以犯罪增防的角度的話任何有助於這個當然可以做但是我們現在未來會有自己的穩定幣的發行還有就是說還有怎麼樣跟國際上面的這些已經發行的穩定幣做合作我想這部分可能是我們未來會按照不同的屬性來進行這樣一個討論跟合作"},{"start":215.992,"end":239.879,"text":"我只是把這個問題先提出來先做好準備因為過去美國的司法部有成功的案例比如說有潛力的話就可以去遵循潛力特別是在我們能夠努力的方向之一我們先做好防堵未來才可以做有效的去打擊犯罪接下來可能要請教院長跟法務部麻煩請法務部長備詢"},{"start":249.238,"end":262.096,"text":"部長我們想請教一下最近這幾年任何一年都沒關係因為這個榨汽罪疏於的受刑人兩年內的再犯率你覺得大概是多少"},{"start":263.321,"end":275.954,"text":"這部分我目前沒有數據我會後再提供我們有這個數據因為我們從法國部那邊提出來我想說你的概念上面有沒有大概是三分之一還是五分之一還是四分之一其實是23.2%這個數字那我為什麼講這個數字"},{"start":280.698,"end":298.508,"text":"是因為我們如果做統計的話我們做案件來去審理的話我們會看到每年都是數以萬計那個數字是很大的但是如果我們以人追案的話我們找這些有高度的再犯率的有前科的那我們可以發覺到這些人是反覆犯案"},{"start":300.08,"end":310.451,"text":"一年內的再犯比例是16.7%這都是法務部的這些記錄所以說他們重新返回犯罪的速度是極快的所以監禁的嚇阻效果為什麼沒有"},{"start":312.035,"end":339.79,"text":"這個犯罪持續案它變成是治安上面的一個頑疾所以高度再犯率它凸顯出現在的矯正教化還有出獄之後的這個追蹤體系是不是對詐欺犯沒有產生有效的嚇阻作用所以現在打詐的政策不斷的經濟但是預防再犯我認為這個是可以解決的因為我們擁有他的過去的犯罪的記錄我們知道他過去犯罪的手法我們有他的資料之後甚至我們可以查出他背後的犯罪集團"},{"start":340.51,"end":356.962,"text":"所以我們可以在源頭管理環節上面來去阻止這樣子的犯罪所以說我們要切入這個再犯率的核心怎麼樣去降低這樣子的再犯率所以這個是一個很重要的一個數據這個統計上面我想部長可不可以跟我們講一下未來你的這個經濟方案"},{"start":359.805,"end":378.622,"text":"我想目前的大部分的這些的詐欺犯他在整個判決確定的一個刑度大部分都集中在一年或者是到這個是車手部分如果說單純的人頭賬戶這邊都是一年以下居多"},{"start":380.023,"end":402.473,"text":"我想這個有它社會的一個原因我想會參加詐團一定是一個觀念偏差尤其是金錢觀的一個觀念的偏差我想在整個一個預防面的如果說有到監獄裡面我想這部分我想我們再加強再做一個教化另外在我也關心的"},{"start":402.873,"end":429.567,"text":"这个再犯率的问题事实上我们那个诈欺危害防治条例对这种在我们怕有这种所以在一个长期比较诈骗人多的这一种的刑度比较高的这一种我们这个在假释这部分我们新的法律是规定是三分之二出犯哦出犯三分之二那另外累犯的话是四分之三如果三犯的话就没有假释的这种的优惠"},{"start":430.367,"end":443.174,"text":"那我想執行刑期的一個長團與活並不代表就是說一個教化的一個成功那我想我們這個委員關心的這預防再犯這個教化這部分我們再跟矯正署我們再來做一個經濟"},{"start":444.876,"end":466.312,"text":"賀祖利然後剛才部長說會提供給我們這些統計數字我想說有這個詐騙前科犯加上這個再犯我們這些多一點數字出來之後有數字我們才可以做一個數字的政策導向政策工具才可以進去那另外委員關心的就是為什麼再犯因為再犯的話我想會再檢討那個言語對我們先從"},{"start":467.473,"end":484.879,"text":"因為我現在手上沒有炸雞犯的有前科的犯罪這幾年的波動我們知道這個之後我們就大概知道說可能我們可以專注在已經有犯罪紀錄所以包含這一個全國的炸雞犯的資料庫或者是高風險的資料庫我們有沒有建制"},{"start":485.996,"end":506.415,"text":"這部分我們再來了解有沒有考慮堅持一下我為什麼這麼講的原因是因為你知道現在我們來思考一下就是說這應該有吧有 這個可以估計出來我要講這句話的原因是說全國的這個詐欺犯的資料庫我為什麼講這件事情包含我們現在ATM有限額包含我們這個高度的銀行監管"},{"start":507.496,"end":522.393,"text":"這種高度的銀行監管其實國內外許多媒體都在對台灣的這個銀行體制有做出一些 也頗有微詞啊比方說他們說對居留者的移民對銀行與保險公司的過度監管"},{"start":522.893,"end":550.948,"text":"那開設台灣銀行帳戶非常困難即使有配偶也往往需要經過漫長還有這個繁瑣的流程為什麼會這樣因為我們要防堵詐欺為什麼要防堵詐欺來影響一般民眾呢這就是我們的癥結點就是說怎麼樣針對這些已經有犯罪前科的已經是再犯 三犯那這些人都還持續的沒有辦法來去嚇阻他們第一個是沒辦法嚇阻第二個是沒辦法教化"},{"start":551.368,"end":576.004,"text":"那我們接下來的做法是什麼這個部分我想部長能夠給我們一個更好的一個說明的方式執行完畢的這些的受刑人這個就是進入到更生人的這個身份那這部分受保護管束或者是假設處於受保護管束的以及更生這部分我們再來努力再從那個柔性司法這邊我們再努力來協助他互歸社會那我想一個會介紹的可能是"},{"start":576.864,"end":604.208,"text":"金錢官的一個偏差或者是因為迫於他的沒有收入或者家庭的一個貧困等等那我想會檢討這個檢視他的原因因為我們在在剿證署裡面我相信也有一些的社公司心理師我想如果說對有些再犯或者出犯的再見之刑我們會試圖去了解他的為什麼要犯罪的原因我想這個在一個刑案的過程之後他會更容易去"},{"start":605.569,"end":617.366,"text":"去把它表達出來好 我們一起找方法好不好部長好 謝謝就是我們提出一個對岸來那我們有數據那我們就可以來去看數據有沒有變化那院長我們接下來就是來討論這一次的打炸的數據"},{"start":619.026,"end":643.824,"text":"這次的數據剛才其實院長都有提到有一些數據的調整的原因是因為警政署從113年9月起他將刑案發生的計算方式由一案一發生改為受理報案被害人一發生數所以說我剛剛看到專報上面有用圖表畫了一個回歸線他說詐騙案件是長期每月減350件"},{"start":646.444,"end":661.676,"text":"數字下降當然是好事但是如果只看下降趨勢沒有做比較或者是沒有對照組就沒有辦法去排除其他的原因那我們看到只有13年8月到14年7月但是如果說我們之前的數據都在的話只是因為"},{"start":662.725,"end":685.872,"text":"方式不同我們還是可以做一些跟過去的對照因為打炸這個東西不可能一年就見效它必須要有一個數據作為一個佐證那來去告訴我們說比方說你說季節性的波動那這樣的統計解讀在科學上和政策上站不站得住腳那我們要的是政策效果政策效果把它做了之後那數據上面有沒有反應出來所以這不是單一的趨勢線"},{"start":687.762,"end":714.556,"text":"院長 行政院手上一定會有一個完整的歷史數據跟區域數據我們就可以用更嚴謹的方法例如用雙重差異的分析比較政策前後不同地區的變化差異當我們排除外部因素之後我們就可以知道我們的政策工具有沒有真正發揮作用所以如果未來我們下次報告提供分析的時候我希望這個時長再長一點因為3月跟4月 4月跟5月5月跟6月的比較我剛剛看到很多委員在做比較"},{"start":715.817,"end":742.752,"text":"對我來說這個統計上面的意義或者是政策上面實施之後有沒有顯著的差別我認為這沒有辦法做出有效的分辨所以在數據上面變化的這個趨勢我還是希望說未來行政院上面可以給我們一個更完整的數據這樣我們才知道說我們的政策到底有沒有用比方說剛才其實有很多委員都提到這個第17條得檢刑的這個要件"},{"start":745.853,"end":772.087,"text":"這個東西到底是有沒有辦法嚇阻這個炸雞飯剛才有很多的討論說之後司法院跟法務部討論之後很快的可能會有調整等等沒有關係我們都是希望有調整但是有調整之後會不會有更好的效果我們就要用數據來去佐證我想這些都是今天講的目的接下來想要討論一下用智慧化的管理來去降低"},{"start":774.529,"end":786.623,"text":"炸機阻斷上次打炸中心的執密有提到調降ATM的限額沒關係 我們打炸中心的代表都可以"},{"start":788.615,"end":810.436,"text":"有提到說調降這個限額是為了阻斷詐騙的金流這個決心我們是絕對去支持的但是一個好的政策就如同我剛剛說到的不要因為防堵犯罪來去犧牲守法民眾的日常便利現在的做法是不是無形中反而造成那些守法的民眾的不便"},{"start":812.745,"end":828.412,"text":"我們並不是要求無上限或者是特別調高而是要回歸正常限制的措施應該是例外而不是作為常態所以說比方說你會精準的風險管控你又導入用戶行為的模式那執行的識別異常的提臉"},{"start":829.292,"end":853.988,"text":"那如果說用戶的行為平常一個月才領一萬的今天突然要領十萬那我們要自動或者是就來調整他的這個提領的上限而不是說一概的全面的把提領的上限來去做調整我想請教一下像這樣子偵測用戶長期嚴重不符合的高風險停款行為即時自動的提領上限在技術上可不可行"},{"start":855.671,"end":879.528,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下有關前陣子很多銀行他不是把全面停掉他對他的宿存客戶就是數位開戶的宿存客戶就是其實他是比較特別如果前陣子委員有注意到的話就對於所謂用我們自然能憑證去單憑自然能憑證去開戶的時候因為這很明顯的他比一般的賬戶這個詐騙的機率高了將近有八九倍這樣對"},{"start":881.309,"end":905.305,"text":"就各種不同的開戶數所以他們先啟動一個風險控管機制那我馬上也跟銀行講說你不可以用去風險的經驗所以你要開始找到一個平衡以後逐步開放像剛才講的他們在九月的時候就會逐步按照這個方式來做因為突然發現說大家大量使用這樣的這個方式進行詐騙所以我們必須他們就啟動他們自發性的風險管理機制來進行那我們也"},{"start":906.827,"end":930.425,"text":"跟銀行提醒說不可以全面這樣來做他們也開始會按照這來做我要提醒這件事情的原因是因為剛才我也提到了現在台灣已經走向世界那我們的產業也是走向國際化那有越來越多旅台的其他國籍的人士商務人士那台灣遇到的商務問題通常就是在銀行上面的問題那我們不能為了綁賭放罪來犧牲這些民眾的權益謝謝委員這問題"},{"start":947.347,"end":947.367,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（17時39分）你好，我們請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長好。院長，我們看今天的報告裡面有提到各種詐騙形式，其中投資詐騙也是一個主要的原因。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：那投資詐騙會得逞，我認為除了詐騙集團使用各種詐騙方式之外，其實源自於我們不了解投資的標的，特別是剛才很多委員都提到的虛擬貨幣也好，或者是穩定幣，也就是說，現在金融防堵有一個重要的點，就是我們在國內大概是有辦法做有效的防堵，但是在境外的合作、具體的方式，可能我們還是需要透過各種外交的手段努力去進行，但是現在的跨境洗錢，過去可能是用虛擬貨幣，像是比特幣等等來進行，但是現在穩定幣也成為主流的虛擬貨幣，甚至在美國也被納入它的天才法案裡面。虛擬貨幣具備高度的流通性以及高度的隱蔽性，所以隱蔽性也有，流通性也有，有了穩定幣之後，等於是他們連價值儲存的功能也都具備了，甚至價值不會因為市場的波動而去縮水，它又變成新時代的一個洗錢工具。我講這麼多的原因，是因為穩定幣雖然號稱有基於去中心化的技術，但是它的發行卻是基於高度中心化的發行商，所以從這些發行商來去做技術上的凍結特定地址的資產權利是有的，譬如說，美國司法部就曾經成功要求泰達公司凍結泰達幣，所以在未發生之前，我們先做防範，它的效用會更大。我想請教院長，我們是不是也可以和泰達這些主要的穩定幣發行商直接建立快速的緊急聯繫跟凍結機制，在黃金時間裡面，例如說24小時內，請求這些發行商對於這些涉詐的錢包進行預防性的凍結，然後之後再補足司法程序？"],["卓院長榮泰：請主委回答。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，當然，最近有關穩定幣的討論非常多，剛剛委員也有提到我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面也有這一塊，剛剛委員提到，我們可不可以透過特定的穩定幣商去做這樣的合作，我想那個層面滿多的，特別是剛剛提到的這家，其實它在國際上面有很大的特色，它是一個受監管比較低度的美國穩定幣發行商，比如說，現在的潮流是希望能夠接受高度的監管，泰達也在想，可不可以在有些境內接受高度的監管，境外它還是維持這樣？這個東西我們以犯罪偵防的角度，任何有助於這個的當然可以做，但是我們未來會發行自己的穩定幣，還有就是怎麼樣跟國際上面已經發行的穩定幣來做合作，我想這部分可能是我們未來會按照不同的屬性來進行這樣的討論跟合作。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，我只是把這個問題先提出來，先做好準備，因為過去美國司法部有成功的案例，等於是有前例的話，就可以去遵循前例，至少這是我們能夠努力的方向之一，即我們先做好防堵，未來才可以有效的打擊犯罪。","接下來可能要請教院長跟法務部。"],["主席：麻煩請法務部長備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我們想請教一下，最近這幾年，任何一年都沒關係，因為詐欺罪出獄的受刑人兩年內的再犯率，你覺得大概是多少？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分目前我沒有數據，我會後再提供。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我們有這個數據，因為是從法務部那邊提出來的，我只是想問你的概念上面有沒有大概是三分之一？還是五分之一？還是四分之一？其實是23.2%這個數字，我為什麼講這個數字？因為我們如果做統計的話，我們做案件審理的話，我們會發現到每年都是數以萬計，那個數字是很大的，但是如果我們以人追案的話，我們找這些有高度再犯率的、有前科的，我們可以發覺到這些人是反覆犯案，一年內的再犯比例是16.7%，這都是法務部的紀錄。所以說他們重新返回犯罪的速度是極快的，所以監禁的嚇阻效果為什麼沒有？這個犯罪持續案件變成是治安上面的一個頑疾，所以高度再犯率凸顯出現在的矯正教化，還有出獄之後的追蹤體系，是不是對詐欺犯沒有產生有效的嚇阻作用？現在打詐政策不斷的精進，但是預防再犯，我認為這個是可以解決的，因為我們擁有他過去的犯罪紀錄，我們知道他過去犯罪的手法，我們有他的資料之後，甚至我們可以查出他背後的犯罪集團，所以我們可以在源頭管理環節上面來阻止這樣子的犯罪，所以說我們要切入這個再犯率的核心，怎麼樣去降低這樣子的再犯率，所以這是一個很重要的數據，這個統計上面，部長可不可以跟我們講一下未來你的精進方案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前大部分詐欺犯判決確定的刑度幾乎都集中在1年，這個是車手的部分，如果是單純的人頭帳戶都是1年以下居多，我想這個有它社會的原因，而會參加詐團一定是觀念偏差，尤其是金錢觀念的偏差。我想在整個預防面，如果有到監獄裡面，這部分我們會再加強教化。","另外，委員也關心的再犯率問題，事實上詐欺犯罪危害防制條例對於長期詐騙、刑度比較高的，在假釋這部分，新的法律規定初犯是三分之二，累犯的話是四分之三，如果三犯就沒有假釋的優惠。我想執行刑期長短與否並不代表教化的成功，至於委員關心的預防再犯教化這部分，我們再跟矯正署做一個精進。"],["陳委員冠廷：嚇阻力，然後剛才部長說會提供給我們這些統計數字。我想詐騙前科犯加上再犯，我們有多一點的數字出來之後，有數字我們才可以做一個數字的政策導向，政策工具才可以進去。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。另外委員關心的就是再犯，再犯的話，我想會再檢討那個原因。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為現在我手上沒有有前科的詐欺犯犯罪這幾年的波動情形，我們知道這個之後，就大概會知道可能我們可以專注在已經有犯罪紀錄，所以包含全國詐欺犯資料庫，或者是高風險的資料庫，我們有沒有建置？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來了解。"],["陳委員冠廷：有沒有考慮建置一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：我為什麼這麼講的原因是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個整個行政資料應該可以去勾稽出來。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們思考一下，就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：這應該有。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，這個可以勾稽出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個分析是基本上……"],["陳委員冠廷：我為什麼講全國詐欺犯資料庫這件事情？包含現在ATM有限額、包含我們高度的銀行監管，這種高度的銀行監管，其實國內外很多媒體都對臺灣的銀行體制頗有微詞，比方他們說對居留者、移民、對銀行與保險公司的過度監管，開設臺灣銀行帳戶非常困難，即使有配偶也往往需要經過漫長和繁瑣的流程，為什麼會這樣？因為我們要防堵詐欺，為什麼防堵詐欺要影響一般民眾呢？這就是我們的癥結點，就是怎麼樣針對那些已經有犯罪前科、已經是再犯、三犯，這些人還持續，沒有辦法嚇阻他們，第一個是沒辦法嚇阻，第二個是沒辦法教化，那我們接下來的作法是什麼？這個部分我希望部長能夠給我們一個更好的說明方式。"],["鄭部長銘謙：執刑完畢的這些受刑人是不是就進入到更生人的身分，這部分受保護管束或者是假釋出獄受保護管束的以及更生人這部分，我們再來努力從柔性司法這邊，我們再努力來協助他復歸社會。我想會去詐騙，可能是金錢觀的偏差，或者是因為迫於沒有收入，或者家庭貧困等等，我們會檢討、檢視它的原因，因為在矯正署裡面，我們相信也有一些社工師、心理師，對於再犯或者初犯的在監執刑，我們會試圖去了解他為什麼要犯罪的原因，我想在一個刑案的過程之後，他會更容易去把它表達出來。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，我們一起找方法，好不好？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是提出一個對案，我們有數據，我們就可以去看數據有沒有變化。","院長，我們接下來就是討論這一次打詐的數據，有關這次的數據，其實剛才院長都有提到有一些數據調整的原因，是因為警政署從113年9月起將刑案發生的計算方式由「一案一發生」改為「受理報案被害人一發生數」。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我剛剛看到專報上有用圖表畫了一個迴歸線，它說詐騙案件是長期以每月減少350件趨勢緩步下降，數字下降當然是好事，但是如果只看下降趨勢沒有做比較或是沒有對照組，就沒有辦法去排除其他的原因，我們只有看到113年8月到114年7月，但是如果我們之前的數據都在的話，只是因為方式不同，我們還是可以做一些跟過去的對照，因為打詐這個東西不可能一年就見效，它必須要有一個數據佐證來告訴我們，比方你說季節性的波動，這樣的統計解讀在科學上和政策上站不站得住腳？我們要的是政策效果，政策效果把它做了之後，數據上面有沒有反應出來？所以這不是單一的趨勢線。院長，行政院手上一定會有一個完整的歷史數據跟區域數據，我們就可以用更嚴謹的方法，例如用雙重差異的分析，比較政策前後不同地區的變化差異，在我們排除外部因素之後，就可以知道我們的政策工具有沒有真正發揮作用。所以如果未來我們下次報告提供分析的時候，我希望這個時長再長一點，因為3月跟4月、4月跟5月、5月跟6月的比較，我剛剛看到很多委員在做比較，其實對我來說，這個統計上面的意義，或是政策上實施之後有沒有顯著的差別，我認為這沒有辦法做出有效的分辨，所以在數據上變化的趨勢，我還是希望未來行政院可以給我們一個更完整的數據，這樣我們才知道我們的政策到底有沒有用。比方說剛才有很多委員都提到第四十七條得減刑的要件，這個減刑到底有沒有辦法嚇阻詐欺犯？剛才有很多的討論，說司法院跟法務部討論之後，可能很快地會有調整等等，那沒有關係，我們都是希望有調整，但是有調整之後會不會有更好的效果？我們就要有數據去佐證，我想這些都是今天講的目的。","接下來想要討論一下用智慧化的管理去降低詐欺阻斷，上次打詐中心的執秘有提到調降ATM的限額。沒關係，打詐中心的代表都可以。有提到這個調降限額是為了阻斷詐騙的金流，這個決心我們是絕對支持的，這是一個好的政策，就如同我剛剛說到的，不要因為防堵犯罪去犧牲守法民眾的日常便利，現在的作法是不是無形中反而造成那些守法民眾的不便？我們並不是要求無上限或特別調高，而是要回歸正常，限制的措施應該是例外而不是作為常態。比方說，你會清楚地風險管控、導入用戶行為的模式、執行識別異常的提領，如果用戶的行為平常一個月才領一萬，今天突然要領10萬，那我們要自動或就來調整他提領的上限，而不是一概的、全面的把提領上限去做調整。我想請教一下，像這樣偵測用戶長期嚴重不符合的高風險提款行為，即時自動地提領上限，在技術上可不可行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，有關前一陣子很多銀行不是把它全面停掉，是對它的數存客戶，就是數位開戶的數存客戶，其實它是比較特別，如果前一陣子委員有注意到的話，對於所謂用自然人憑證，單憑自然人憑證去開戶的時候，因為這很明顯的它比一般帳戶的詐騙機率高了將近有8、9倍，就各種不同的開戶數，所以他們先啟動一個風險控管機制，我馬上也跟銀行講說：你不可以用去風險的經營，所以你要開始找到一個平衡，以後逐步開放。像剛才講的，他們在9月的時候就會按照這個方式來做，因為突然發現大量使用這個方式進行詐騙，他們就啟動自發性的風險管理機制來進行，我們也跟銀行提醒說，不可以全面這樣來做，他們應該不會按照這樣來做。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝，我要提醒這件事情的原因是因為剛才我也提到了，現在臺灣已經走向世界，我們的產業也是走向國際化，也越來越多旅臺的其他國籍的商務人士，在臺灣遇到的商務問題，通常就是在銀行上面的問題，我們不能為了防堵犯罪來犧牲這些民眾的權益。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員對這個問題非常深入地了解，我是要求一開始用重一點的方式沒有問題，可能給大家造成一些不便，我們慢慢地調整到大家能夠適應，但是也不會傷害到一般人在交易上的自由為原則。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，非常感謝卓院長以及相關部會首長列席答詢。","現在作以下決定：一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復的部分予以書面答復。二、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，8月19號（星期二）上午9點繼續開會，進行「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢。","再一次感謝劉書彬委員、林楚茵委員，一起參與今天的專案報告，也再次謝謝卓院長及各部會首長。現在休息。","休息（17時55分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163539","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163539","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de612a98a0937bfb7ea18cf3659852ed2503eea2082bcc3166db210e5aacf32087b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"17:23:06 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Play平台上每個月"},{"start":259.741,"end":274.933,"text":"下載的流量有61萬件來講那麼我就請問部長你覺得這個使用量高嗎我們需要我們當然希望更高那我們也需要做一些宣傳這個我想我們可以再繼續努力"},{"start":275.835,"end":297.235,"text":"現在就是說很多民眾下載之後他們很熱心通報所以我們通報的案件有現在到溫佈縣至少超過25萬件然後裡面有發現14萬件以上是詐騙廣告所以讓我們能夠去下架這14萬多件的詐騙廣告所以雖然說參與的下載不多但是"},{"start":297.815,"end":307.066,"text":"這些民眾的熱情通報確實讓我們下架很多詐騙廣告但是我們會繼續努力讓更多人能夠去利用這樣的一個APP來協助政府打詐"},{"start":307.881,"end":328.183,"text":"坦白說本席是因為要質詢所以才去做了功課然後我才下載知道的人可以說是非常的少但是既然五月份到現在我們就已經上架但是使用量卻非常低其實它有一個功能是很好用的我們乾脆就藉由今天現在這個質詢的機會來告訴大家"},{"start":330.285,"end":350.998,"text":"就是當你發現任何一個平台上面有任何一個廣告任何一個社群你覺得有問題你只要複製貼上就可以通報而且在通報的過程中他會告訴你現在通報的狀況比如說本席現在看到放在最上面的一個是"},{"start":352.278,"end":375.015,"text":"蔡鴻圖的粉絲專頁還有國泰清控董事長他的粉絲專頁被通報了但是呢我點進去看之後他其實還在跟本人確認中所以這個也就是剛剛委員們槌尋這味道的就是說這是不是放進去之後到底能不能獲得證實"},{"start":377.708,"end":382.366,"text":"我看到的這個是我點進去看了8月15號就通報了"},{"start":384.079,"end":408.464,"text":"那8月15號也就是今天嘛那早上通報了之後那麼到了下午之後有沒有任何新的進展不知道但是也許現在我們諮詢的傳播出去了本人會趕快來確認這是不是真的那我覺得這樣的一個通報系統他是結合了跟平台的合作跟金管會跟財政部跟所有的社群"},{"start":409.244,"end":431.387,"text":"包括在我們的打炸相關的部會當中他都有做一個連結大家會知道這個資訊我覺得是一件好事但問題現在就在這裡宣傳不夠民眾不知道那麼就形同虛設到底我們要如何增強宣傳我們大家也知道巧婦難為無米之炊啦現在"},{"start":432.448,"end":461.031,"text":"數位部到底有沒有打算要做宣傳當然本席也可以幫忙找出數據包括之前數位部因為宣傳費用這個通院刪減60%然後宣傳提案又刪了50%所以你們到底還剩下多少的宣傳那這個部分到底有沒有安排宣傳還是你就是把它上架在Google的App Store跟這個Apple的App Store然後其他你就沒有再管它"},{"start":462.345,"end":482.285,"text":"委員其實講到一個重點就是因為經費被大刪的結果我們現在所有經費都拿去發展因為這個APL包括我們要發展AI的技術去做這個掃描所以的確在宣傳經費上是幾乎沒有但是我想以後我們會在有限資源之下我們會盡量去做宣傳"},{"start":484.423,"end":510.836,"text":"這個基本上 院長我覺得這個通報系統我自己下載了之後我覺得有它的必要存在性但是剛剛前面的委員也在質詢就是是不是讓平台擁有太多的下架權力但是這個就是這樣當初我們在自訂有關於打炸專法的時候求的是快 求的是效率求的是第一時間的阻斷"},{"start":512.335,"end":532.993,"text":"但是現在呢又過來變成是有人來跟你澄清說哎呀我是正宮結果我的真正的粉絲被阻擋了是不是平台把我屬於我本人真正的認證的粉絲團反而被下架了我要上傳我的東西的時候反而我被阻攔了"},{"start":533.473,"end":545.805,"text":"所以在快速跟正確性之間到底有沒有一個平衡包括剛剛我講的這個通報的平台有沒有bug還是說其實在這個中間真的缺少了一個守門員"},{"start":548.323,"end":569.458,"text":"剛剛從委員那個案例當中就知道他確實有經過一段時間的查和審查那審查的過程當中本人也應該積極的來配合告訴大家說我這個是名符其實的那這個就會安全了那如果他真的是碰到一個假的他大概不敢出面我們就會把他做下一步的處置"},{"start":570.419,"end":593.802,"text":"那這個也是當初速發部在設計這個通報平台當中花了很長時間一直在我們內部的會議一直在反覆的使用我們非常謹慎一定要他能夠達到真實這個目的才出來的談了很多次我發覺都不如今天委員在這裡講的這一次所以您今天應該我們可以請委員當我們的代言人"},{"start":594.795,"end":617.609,"text":"我是真的覺得這個東西五月底上線到現在知道的人太少然後再來就是驗證的速度是不是夠快尤其是像粉絲團或者是Instagram或者是其他這個所謂的社群平台上面的這種所謂個人的粉絲團需要驗證確實需要花一點時間能不能有更多快速的綠色通道那這個就請"},{"start":618.53,"end":633.675,"text":"行政院這裡跟數位部這裡來做一個跟平台更快速的溝通那麼至於如果是所謂我們講的這種廣告式的詐騙那麼他一見就可以立刻把他拉下來那麼這個當然就可以有比較快的效率"},{"start":635.502,"end":661.205,"text":"報告委員的確沒錯這個整個過程中也就是說尤其特別講的是Meta因為被我們要求結果產生更強硬的自律的措施這裡面包括社群守則的確是有需要精進的空間所以剛剛講的很多間的下架是它內部自律的結果那我想我們會再跟Meta再去溝通它的確這個所謂的社群守則在判斷這個所謂的詐騙廣告的時候"},{"start":662.997,"end":676.043,"text":"需要更精準這個我們會繼續再跟Meta努力但是很多下架並不是我們數碼部通知的就是他們自律用社群守則去下架這個需要再精進這個我們再會去跟Meta再來討論"},{"start":677.213,"end":699.475,"text":"好那麼接下來呢我要看下一張就是剛剛提到的兩個重點第一個是手段多樣那麼如何讓民眾更知道多樣的手段那麼通報的方式當然要多元再來當然就是有關於虛擬貨幣現在是不是虛擬的服務商虛擬貨幣的服務商成為洗錢的這樣的一個管道當你一旦"},{"start":700.015,"end":728.125,"text":"放進了虛擬貨幣的平台之後可能就真的再也來無影去無蹤因為我們都知道這個所謂在網路上面一旦錢洗出去之後要追都追不回來只能用事後的方式來補強除了我知道其實今天早上已經有非常多的委員在詢問有關於就是我們的虛擬資產的法律到底什麼時候可以真的送到立法院因為我們已經過了預告期了"},{"start":729.005,"end":749.386,"text":"那現在大家非常要知道的是行政院在這個部分在金管會在這個部分裡面到底怎麼樣來看這個把關的部分是跟委員說明一下我們在那個這個虛擬資產服務法草案我們在列為27號送進行政院而且很快的行政院那個劉靜清是政委已經做過審查"},{"start":750.987,"end":770.252,"text":"持續在審查中因為這個條文是一個全新的而且非常複雜比如這裡面還有涉及到現在全世界都在關注的穩定幣這部分大家都非常的關注我們在送出來之前也已經開過超過20場的公聽會其實也整合了蠻多的意見我想這個應該會盡速來在行政院討論完畢然後送到行政院來"},{"start":770.731,"end":794.207,"text":"好因為其實現在缺的就是一個法源我當然知道就是現在許多我們的相關的這個虛擬的貨幣的服務商喔他們其實是很配合的不論他們有沒有在台灣落地他們都很願意配合相關的單位來進行打詐的協助但是有沒有法源是非常的重要如果說今天明明知道這個賬戶有問題"},{"start":795.908,"end":810.986,"text":"但是沒有法源可以立即來做阻斷那麼我們只能變成事後後續來把錢追回來但是放上了網路一切斷鏈之後前後追查不到那麼很難錢會追回來"},{"start":811.807,"end":826.36,"text":"所以對於所謂的很快到底要有多快速度上面院長有沒有一個想法跟宣示因為我們都知道虛擬資產的服務商他們多數是跟銀行端確實是有建立一定的聯絡的管道"},{"start":826.88,"end":847.376,"text":"但是如果說今天我們在法規上能夠更健全當我們知道這一筆錢送進了虛擬資產服務平台的時候他就是有憑有據不是來路不明甚至於就是客戶自己的自有的資金那麼可以提供這樣的所謂的KYC的時候"},{"start":847.836,"end":875.903,"text":"那麼當然我們就可以更杜絕所謂剛剛我前面提到的透過這樣的一個虛擬資產虛擬幣把錢洗出去所以法的重要性是來自於不只對於這些服務商提供他們一定的法源的監控是他們跟這些金融機構之間彼此的連結也有一個法源的根據我對於台灣的金融機構在我們金管會的金融監督底下他們包括今年"},{"start":877.063,"end":898.044,"text":"前幾個月這個所謂警示帳戶都慢慢逐漸在減少因為對於金融機構來講他們的警示帳戶超過一定的比例他們會收到金管會相關的這個詢問甚至於懲處所以他們是非常非常仔細跟小心的可是聯絡到所以我們的"},{"start":899.285,"end":925.353,"text":"虛擬幣的服務提供商的時候可能中間就會有一個斷鏈的bug這個也是現在詐騙集團找到可以鑽漏洞的巧門所以我才會認為這個法規必須要加緊腳步剛剛主委說六月底已經呈報到院六月底呈報到院我認為如果內容完整而且非常的充實可用為了趕快我們在下會期是不是可以把它送出來"},{"start":931.888,"end":932.733,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（17時23分）謝謝主席。主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["林委員楚茵：請數位部黃部長。"],["主席：請數位部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：院長辛苦了。今天早上我在這裡聆聽您報告時我就注意到，首先我必須講，只要有任何一件詐騙案存在，人民就不會滿意。對於詐騙，我想詐騙集團其實就是要從人民或受害者身上拿到最多的金錢與利益，所以會絞盡腦汁。這對整個行政團隊來講，確實是非常、非常大的嚴格考驗跟挑戰。","今天我們針對新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效請您跟相關部會來做報告，也一整天了。我必須講，行動綱領2.0是在去年11月底，也就是11月28日才開始，說實在的，根本還沒滿一年。如果用月來推算，到現在大概就是滿八個月而已。在現在這個時間點，所有防詐的各相關部會首長都坐在這裡，是不是現在馬上就必須來做檢討？這點本席是存疑的。坦白說，這時候並不是立法院的會議期間，但因為民眾黨提案延會，也提案要來做報告，我們當然也就予以尊重，但是到底有多少民眾黨的委員在現場？目前有一位，其他的民眾黨委員呢？早上黨主席還去車隊掃街了！所以我認為、我希望真正關心這個議題的人就不要作秀，真的好好的、認真來關心這個題目，我們一起來解決民眾的問題。","首先開始之前，本席先來唸一個最新的報導，上面提到的就是「道高一尺、魔高一丈！打詐2.0繼續加把勁」。根據行政院的官員表示，今年詐騙集團有兩種改變，第一個是詐騙的金額沒有變少，一樣喔，但是案件數變多了，可見詐騙集團很狡猾，他們的做案動作越來越多。剛剛前面也有委員一直提到，就是當打詐的樣態越來越多的時候，我們到底要如何讓人民知道？第二個，等一下我也會就教金管會的彭主委，就是現在的洗錢流程變短了，過去可能要有五個步驟、要超過三個金融機構以上，但現在通常就是二個步驟，一下子經過一個金融機構就洗到了加密貨幣，然後來無影去無蹤。我想先就第一個改變，也就是詐騙樣態變多了的部分提問，本席想請問部長，你的手機裡面有沒有下載一個打詐通報平臺系統？部長，你有下載這個平臺系統嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：委員講的是我們自己有一個網路詐騙通報查詢網……"],["林委員楚茵：有一個app，部長，你有下載嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，當然有。"],["林委員楚茵：有下載，其實剛剛前面葛如鈞委員在問的就是這個，包括通報的系統到底怎麼樣操作，其實本席有下載，但是你知道這個通報系統有多少人知道、有多少人在使用嗎？我們來看下一張，這個通報系統從5月15號上線到現在，截至8月11號有1萬9,522位民眾下載，有3,838人使用這個app來做案件的通報，但是如果以Google Play平臺上每個月下載的流量有61萬件來講，請問部長，你覺得這個使用量高嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們當然希望更高，我們也需要多做一些宣傳，這個我想我們可以再繼續努力。現在就是很多民眾下載了之後，他們很熱心通報，所以我們通報的案件到目前至少超過25萬件，然後發現裡面有14萬件以上是詐騙廣告，讓我們能夠去下架這十四萬多件的詐騙廣告。所以雖然說參與、下載的人不多，但是這些民眾的熱情通報，確實讓我們下架很多詐騙廣告，不過我們會繼續努力，讓更多人能夠去利用這樣的app來協助政府打詐。"],["林委員楚茵：坦白說，本席是因為要質詢，所以才去做了功課，然後我才下載，知道的人可以說是非常的少，你們5月份就已經上架，但是使用量卻非常低，其實它有一個功能是很好用的，我們乾脆就藉由今天現在這個質詢的機會來告訴大家，就是當你發現任何一個平臺上面有任何一個廣告、任何一個社群，你覺得有問題的話，你只要複製貼上就可以通報，而且在通報的過程中，它會告訴你現在通報的狀況。比如說，本席現在看到在最上面的一個是蔡宏圖的粉絲專頁，就是國泰金控董事長的粉絲專頁被通報了，但是我點進去看之後發現現在的狀況其實還在跟本人確認中，所以這也就是剛剛委員們垂詢時問到的，也就是這個放進去之後到底能不能獲得證實？我看到的這個，我點進去看是8月15日就通報的，8月15號也就是今天，早上通報了之後，到了下午有沒有任何新的進展不知道，但是也許現在我們質詢了、傳播出去了，他本人會趕快來確認這是不是真的，我覺得這樣的通報系統它是結合了跟平臺的合作，跟金管會、財政部及所有的社群，包括打詐相關部會都有做一個連結，大家會知道這個資訊，我覺得這是一件好事，但現在問題就在這裡，宣傳不夠、民眾不知道，那麼就形同虛設，到底我們要如何增強宣傳？我們當然也知道巧婦難為無米之炊啦，現在數位部到底有沒有打算要做宣傳？當然本席也可以幫忙找出數據，包括之前數位部因為宣傳費用被通案刪減60%，然後宣傳提案又刪了50%，你們到底還剩下多少的宣傳費？這個部分到底有沒有安排宣傳？還是你就是把它上架在Google的App Store跟Apple的App Store，然後其他的就沒有在管了？"],["黃部長彥男：委員其實講到一個重點，就是因為經費被大刪的結果，我們現在所有的經費都拿去發展，因為這個app也包括我們要發展AI的技術去做掃描，所以的確在宣傳經費上是幾乎沒有，但是我想以後我們會在有限的資源之下儘量去做宣傳。"],["林委員楚茵：好。院長，基本上，這個通報系統，我自己下載了之後是覺得有它的必要存在性，但是剛剛前面的委員質詢時也提到，是不是讓平臺擁有太多的下架權利？但是這個就是這樣，當初我們在制定有關於打詐專法的時候，求的是快、求的是效率、求的是第一時間的阻斷……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員楚茵：但是現在又變成是有人來向你陳情說：哎呀，我是正宮，結果我的粉絲被阻擋了，是不是平臺把屬於我本人真正認證的粉絲團反而被下架了，我要上傳東西的時候反而被阻攔了？所以在快速跟正確性之間，到底有沒有一個平衡？包括剛剛我講的這個通報平臺有沒有bug？還是說其實在這個中間真的缺少了一個守門員？"],["卓院長榮泰：從委員剛剛那個案例當中就知道，它確實有經過一段時間的查核、審查，在審查的過程當中，本人也應該積極來配合告訴大家我這個是名符其實的，這個就會安全了。如果真的是碰到一個假的，大概也不敢出面，我們就會做下一步的處置。這個也是當初數發部在設計這個通報平臺時花了很長的時間，在我們內部的會議一直在反覆的使用，我們非常謹慎，一定要能夠達到真實這個目的才出來，談了很多次，我發覺都不如今天委員在這裡講的這一次，所以我們應該可以請委員當我們的代言人。"],["林委員楚茵：我是真的覺得這個東西5月底上線到現在，知道的人太少，再來就是驗證的速度是不是夠快？尤其是像粉絲團、Instagram或者是其他所謂社群平臺上面的個人粉絲團，因為驗證確實需要花一點時間，能不能有更多快速的綠色通道，就請行政院跟數位部去跟平臺做更快速的溝通。","至於如果是所謂我們講的這種廣告式的詐騙，那麼它一鍵就可以立刻把它拉下來，當然就可以有比較快的效率。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，的確沒錯，在這整個過程中，尤其特別講的是Meta，因為被我們要求，結果它產生更強硬的自律措施，這裡面包括社群守則的確是有需要精進的空間，所以剛剛講到很多件的下架，事實上是它內部自律的結果，我想我們會再跟Meta去做溝通，的確這個所謂的社群守則在判斷所謂詐騙廣告的時候需要更精準，我們跟Meta會再去努力，但是很多的下架並不是我們數發部通知的，而是他們自律的用社群守則去下架的，這個需要再精進，我們跟Meta會再去做討論。"],["林委員楚茵：好，接下來我們來看下一張，就是剛剛提到的兩個重點，第一個是手段多樣，如何讓民眾知道更多樣的手段，通報的方式當然要多元。再來當然就是有關於虛擬貨幣，現在是不是虛擬貨幣的服務商成為洗錢的一個管道？當你一旦放進了虛擬貨幣的平臺之後，可能就真的再也來無影去無蹤，因為我們都知道，在網路上面一旦錢洗出去之後，要追都追不回來，只能用事後的方式來補強。","主委，我知道其實今天早上已經有非常多委員在詢問，我們虛擬資產的法律到底什麼時候可以真的送到立法院，因為已經過了預告期了。現在大家非常想要知道的是，行政院在這個部分、金管會在這個部分，到底怎麼樣來看把關的部分？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。跟委員說明一下，虛擬資產服務法草案我們在6月27號送進行政院，而且很快的行政院劉鏡清政委已經持續在審查中，因為這個法案是全新的而且非常複雜，比如這裡面還有涉及到現在全世界都在關注的穩定幣，這一部分大家都非常關注。我們在送出來之前也已經開了超過20場的公聽會，也整合了滿多的意見，我想這個法案應該會儘速在行政院討論完畢，然後送到立法院來。"],["林委員楚茵：好，因為現在缺的就是法源。我當然知道，現在許多相關的虛擬貨幣服務商其實是很配合的，不論他們有沒有在臺灣落地，他們都很願意配合來協助相關單位打詐，但是有沒有法源非常的重要。如果今天明明知道這個帳戶有問題，但是沒有法源可以立即來做阻斷，我們只能變成事後後續來把錢追回來。但是放上了網路一切斷鏈之後，前後追查不到，那就很難把錢追回來。所以，對於所謂的「很快」到底有多快，速度上面院長有沒有一個想法跟宣示？","我們都知道，虛擬資產服務商他們多數跟銀行端確實有建立一定的聯絡管道，但是如果今天我們在法規上能夠更健全，當我們知道這一筆錢送進了虛擬資產服務平臺的時候，他是有憑有據，不是來路不明，甚至於是客戶自己的自有資金，可以提供所謂的KYC的時候，當然我們就可以更杜絕，如剛剛我前面提到的，透過這樣的虛擬資產、虛擬幣把錢洗出去。所以，法的重要性是來自於，不只為政府對這些服務商的監控提供一定的法源，更是他們跟金融機構之間彼此的連結也有一個法源根據。","臺灣的金融機構在我們金管會的金融監督底下，他們在今年前幾個月所謂的警示帳戶都慢慢逐漸在減少，因為對於金融機構來講，他們的警示帳戶超過一定的比例，他們會收到金管會相關的詢問甚至於懲處，所以他們是非常非常仔細跟小心的。可是連結到我們所謂的虛擬貨幣服務提供商的時候，可能中間就會有一個斷鏈的bug，這個也是現在詐騙集團找到可以鑽漏洞的巧門，所以我才會認為這個法規必須要加緊腳步。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛主委說6月底已經呈報到院了……"],["彭主任委員金隆：6月底就送件了。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：6月底呈報到院，我認為如果內容完整，而且非常的充實可用，為了趕快，我們在下會期是不是可以把它送出來，但是一定要起到可以管制的作用，我們會要求這個目的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝，下會期喔。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員當我們的代言人。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，接下來最後一位登記的是陳冠廷委員。我們非常感謝台灣民眾黨團唯一的，從下午坐到現在的劉書彬委員，從頭到尾，非常感謝。","我們請陳冠廷委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163538","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163538","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6fd0aa30ccd14467818cf3659852ed2503eea2082bcc3166d3717ab8172553e855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"17:06:47 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还有直接就被集团给fire掉了"},{"start":168.903,"end":183.62,"text":"有人是多年的家庭生活的記錄跟祖父母合照的照片就因為帳號被停權下架消失人生的閱歷回憶全部消失而罹患了憂鬱症"},{"start":184.801,"end":206.048,"text":"有非常多複雜的狀態所以我想要請教院長本席正式的在此將這份陳情書交給您這裡面有受害者的名稱停權日期停權造成的影響等等能不能您接下來我們就折成速發布來處理此事可以嗎我在數年前也曾經被下架過"},{"start":207.628,"end":219.093,"text":"這經過一個程序就把它回復過來您是院長不是 數年前報告委員但是這確實是擾民我們是不是先接下這個陳情書 願意嗎院長可以吧好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":243.991,"end":262.809,"text":"我想真的也謝謝院長接下這幾千位裡面只是一部分的這個陳情書啊那真的是要責成速發部來正視此事我想部長您應該希望能夠盡速給這些受害者您也受害過一個交代不要讓他們繼續承受這些壓力對嗎"},{"start":265.45,"end":285.155,"text":"待會會有時間給書發部部長說明院長你應該願意幫忙對吧我們認為我們在打擊各種不法的過程當中也是要善盡到保護一般的合法國人好的這裡面其實真的不是只是平台的責任我們來看一下"},{"start":286.095,"end":309.17,"text":"很多人都是因為政府機關的錯誤通知才慘遭下架很多人正常的經營粉專就被這些平台告知因為政府有速發部有刑事局有可能是金管會的要求去下架當平台業者收到通知以後如果不進行處理可能就會被處罰"},{"start":310.091,"end":328.628,"text":"只好全部下架全部封鎖但有很多正牌的粉專正牌的帳號就被錯殺造成正版被下架結果咧爆版活得好好的還像雨後春筍一樣冒出來院長您可以看一下左邊左上角本來是一個KOL"},{"start":329.048,"end":356.496,"text":"他的賬號被下架以後左下角搜尋同樣的KOL名字立刻跑出一堆假的這不是在助長詐騙集團嗎在右邊也是另外一個用粉專在營業推廣知識的平台就來陳情抱怨因為被打詐被下架立刻跑出一堆假的平台假冒他們的身份去騙錢啊所以我想請院長啊"},{"start":357.116,"end":382.646,"text":"真的要了解 如果我們打詐真的有這種錯殺由政府發出通知錯殺的情況這就是在幫助詐騙集團 院長同意嗎我們會盡量的避免但是同時這個內容的審查跟雙方之間 民眾跟平台之間有可能是他們內部的商業行為這個倒不是一概而論 全部都這樣不是一概而論 但是政府要負政府的責任 同意嗎好"},{"start":383.946,"end":400.293,"text":"我們來看一下政府其實有責任這些都是非常明確的速發部可以封鎖把服務搶起來然後我們的內政部刑事局可以說不能看台灣人不能看"},{"start":401.213,"end":426.106,"text":"還有完全沒有證據就說人家有詐欺的嫌疑整個帳號被停權沒有證據哪個單位哪個情況完全不知道請問院長當民眾因為政府單位錯誤通報被下架以後民眾應該要如何申訴我們期待平台有一個申訴的管道政府需不需要因為政府有通知"},{"start":427.17,"end":430.316,"text":"政府如果可以的話我們也可以做一些這樣的協助"},{"start":432.85,"end":456.405,"text":"提供一些管道來幫忙那現在管道待會我們會提到啦那誰要對這個錯誤負責有沒有賠償的機制很多粉專就是他們的營業的方法啊就是一個粉專就是一個公司啊第一個當然是要求公部門能夠嚴格的要求自己那如果出現了這樣的錯誤我們第一個協助民眾儘快恢復如果有不得恢復的事情那可能會是衍生其他"},{"start":457.666,"end":473.767,"text":"民事的等等問題 我覺得這個法律問題謝謝院長說要趕快協助 那我們來看一下其實現在的狀況就是速發部完全沒有管道來協助民眾其實這裡我們看一下這個通報網的流程"},{"start":474.928,"end":488.884,"text":"裡面呢有審核機關結果呢完全沒有任何一個機制去審核這些審核機關去監督這些監督機關我想問一下速發部長民眾去請速發部下架有單一窗口嗎"},{"start":490.297,"end":505.977,"text":"我們有網路詐騙通報查詢網我說的是帳號被停權的一般受害的百姓我們有申訴管道如果有申訴管道有效的話還會有這麼多人要陳情 三千多人要成立自救會嗎"},{"start":508.18,"end":534.845,"text":"我們這些很多不是我們去那個因為像Meta它有一個叫社群守則那這個社群守則很多是它根據內部的自律的機制去做處理並不是我們謝謝部長我已經都秀給部長看了你們的部會名稱都在這裡院長如果只要有錯下架你們都說是平台的責任那我讓平台來當速發部部長好不好不能這樣子我們先講沒有關係部長"},{"start":537.225,"end":554.424,"text":"我相信速發部很想把事情做好我們現在是一起把事情做好我們來看一下這張圖啦我直接就問嘛中間的審核機關可以決定名單通報平台去下架這個部分沒問題啊這張圖是你們自己的圖喔"},{"start":555.949,"end":577.337,"text":"那請問這個審核機關啊有沒有平衡的機制有沒有人可以二次把關這個審核機關有沒有誘因去提高他的辨識率不要亂下架什麼機制我們告訴我我們現在就是在精進這個機制那我剛講就是說很多比如像這牽涉到健康衛福"},{"start":577.717,"end":604.108,"text":"那就衛福部來審查我們沒辦法做第二次審查交通的話就交通部來審查或者是各個部會他負責審查自己內部的內容就說像詐騙廣告是要給目的事業主管機關所以院長今天我要透過這個渠道來讓您知道這個各個目的事業主管機關的認定是沒有任何人可以制衡沒有任何人可以檢查"},{"start":604.528,"end":630.803,"text":"我們今天完全不知道任何一個部會今天提供了多少清單有多少人被下架哪些是錯誤的我們有這樣的機制嗎如果你要再加一個機制下去那整個下架流程變更長我們現在希望是24小時下架你要再去重新審查所以就是求快剛剛那三千個人的權益都可以損失嗎三千人不見不見的都是我們要求下架這是他的社群守則"},{"start":631.483,"end":656.705,"text":"那有沒有是你們的啊我再秀一次有沒有是你們的嗎所以我想你們事實上我們都很清楚啦正確率其實是不夠的啦我只是不想在這裡大家都是同行我想要一個具體的建議機關不可以獨斷獨行做出侵害民眾的權益我們要有double check的機制不然某個機關心情好多殺一點"},{"start":657.185,"end":682.122,"text":"心情不好 多錯一點 有什麼關係有沒有平衡的方法有打架儀表板 可不可以也有下架儀表板讓大家可以知道發生什麼事在儀表板旁邊可以有申訴院長可不可以責成速發部把這件事情做好我先講一句話我說我幾年前也被下架過那時候並沒有這個通報的平台但是那個下架就是它內部的管理"},{"start":683.383,"end":708.92,"text":"今天所有的下架都歸於這個平台我沒有全部歸於但是這個機制不完美部長也承認了我們來也請委員來提供我們有沒有更好的方式來一個安全的機制我剛剛提出了有打詐儀標板可不可以有下架儀標板我們現在民眾沒有人知道誰是被錯下架誰是自己真的做了壞事沒有任何證據院長我們希望責成可以嗎"},{"start":710.006,"end":735.444,"text":"我們第一個要求我們事先在審核的時候各部會依照他的部會業務要嚴格的來審核即時優化嚴格處理不好意思我時間有限了還有一個很重要的問題我們剛剛討論的是平台我們現在討論連整個網站跟服務都有可能被封鎖了我們看到速發部有說哇很成功啊攔阻了幾萬件幾十萬件啊但是結果咧發生什麼事情啊"},{"start":736.224,"end":758.115,"text":"DNSRPC是鎖掉整個平台跟網域啊Google可以直接被認定詐騙封網啊我們Telegram可以直接被搶啊我們連這個Azure的雲端平台的服務全部包括超商企業全部連到這裡被封鎖啊沒辦法解鎖院長知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":758.775,"end":787.383,"text":"因为公文系统也是用这个平台在建设的所以公文发不出去所以我想要问的就是啊我们没有一个机制去做但是呢部长之前有说了给平台跟服务也有救济管道请问部长救济管道在哪里我们刚刚就委员建议就说我们当然以后会在我们的这个网大通报层加一个链接不过现在遇到这种状况的时候直接联络我们苏华部的窗口我们都会去处理"},{"start":787.976,"end":816.213,"text":"但是另外一點就是說其實這些平台他們也有申訴的管道所以事實上可以從那個地方申訴也是可以所以申訴的管道不是一個部長您是速發部部長平台是平台如果您再這樣做我們請平台來做速發部好了啦我想我們不要這樣我們先繼續我想請問院長機關動用防詐條例第42條可以用DLS RPZ直接認定就封鎖不用經過審核為什麼"},{"start":818.114,"end":833.574,"text":"你可以看一下各目的事業主管機關喔您底下的所有部會只要他認為有問題直接就可以全部封掉剛剛全部的都是因為這一條院長為什麼可以這樣啊"},{"start":837.082,"end":863.738,"text":"是不是可以檢討一下可不可以檢討一下這個流程跟機制有沒有濫用的問題濫用法條的問題可以嗎這個認定如果是依法來認定應該沒有司法上的問題但依法這個法它是合不合理那就是另外一個討論我們是給空間跟條件但是執行上拜託好好的處理那一定要嚴謹的去認定如果是 沒錯 嚴謹嘛緊急案件我們理解可是沒有制衡跟濫用這個我們絕對是不可以的"},{"start":864.238,"end":882.807,"text":"我想有很多的錯誤判斷沒有把關就會造成什麼降分我想網路人權也是人權數位人權也是人權美國自由之家在網路自由度的報告2022年跟2023年都下降你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":884.52,"end":910.555,"text":"我想院長不清楚啦我直接給你看2022年降分因為你們封鎖了因為你們屏蔽了2023年你們刑事案件裡面直接對網站刑事屏蔽沒有做任何的監督機制跟監察機制啊所以我們想要講的就是不透明沒有監察機制就有錯殺亂殺我想啊我們作為民主國家"},{"start":911.94,"end":938.243,"text":"一個數位的帳號也是一個數位的人啊數位人權也是人權啊數位民主也是民主啊數位資訊的自由也是自由啊如果沒有審查的機制沒有嚴格執行的做法就會影響到我們的數位人權院長可不可以在一個月內對保障數位人權提出報告我請訴發部"},{"start":939.677,"end":951.063,"text":"請述研究一個合理的救濟的管道跟機制好 謝謝葛如君委員的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（17時7分）謝謝院長，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長好。我國的詐騙問題很嚴重，您今天應該已經有更深刻的認識，詐欺案件的發生數和財損的金額可以說是逐年升高，想必您今天就是最好了解的機會。為了讓政府有充足的武器跟工具去應對日益嚴重的詐騙案件，我們透過法律去賦予行政機關空間以及條件，作為在必要的時候，採取必要行動的依據，沒想到如今卻變成了行政單位有可能去侵害到人權以及數位人權的手段。","過去其實發生過不少次錯誤下架的事件，譬如，有一些平臺在去年大量的下架正牌財經網紅的粉專，遭到大家的批評，在兩週之前，又再次發生數千人的帳號被停權下架，裡面有醫師、有新聞主播、美妝、旅遊KOL、設計師、心理師還有出版社編輯等各行各業，可以說是百工百業被下架啊！更甚者，在四天前，連我們113位立委之一翁曉玲委員的臉書帳號也被停權，粉專藍勾勾也被下架。這些被平臺下架封鎖的一般民眾非常痛苦，成立了超過三千人的自救會，本席手上有他們的陳情書，這裡面有五百多個人的個資以及心聲，五百多人只是一小部分，三千人的自救會也只是一小部分，他們有些人失去了工作，有些人的工作本來就是管理這些粉專，老闆的帳號被封，連員工的也一起被封，粉專立刻不見，而認定他們失職，還有直接就被集團給fire掉了。有人則是多年的家庭生活紀錄、跟祖父母合照的照片，就因為帳號被停權下架消失，人生的閱歷、回憶全部消失，而罹患了憂鬱症，有非常多複雜的狀態。所以我想要請教院長，本席正式在此將這份陳情書交給您，這裡面有受害者的名稱、停權日期、停權造成的影響等等，能不能接下來您就責成數發部來處理此事，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：葛委員，我在數年前也曾經被下架過，但經過一個程序就把它回復過來，我覺得……"],["葛委員如鈞：您是院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，是數年前。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，那個……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是這確實是擾民。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們是不是先接下這個陳情書，願意嗎？院長，可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。我真的也謝謝院長接下這幾千位裡面只是一部分的陳情書，真的是要責成數發部來正視此事，部長，您也受害過，您應該希望能夠儘速給這些受害者一個交代，不要讓他們繼續承受這些壓力，對嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：先跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：待會會有時間給數發部部長說明。院長，你應該願意幫忙，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我認為我們在打擊各種不法的過程當中也要善盡保護一般合法的國人。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯，謝謝院長。這裡面其實真的不是只有平臺的責任，我們來看一下，很多人都是因為政府機關的錯誤通知才慘遭下架，很多人正常的經營粉專，就被這些平臺告知，因為政府有數發部、有刑事局，有可能是金管會的要求去下架，當平臺業者收到通知以後，如果不進行處理可能就會被處罰，只好全部下架、全部封鎖，但有很多正牌的粉專、正牌的帳號就被錯殺，造成正版被下架，結果盜版活得好好的，還像雨後春筍一樣冒出來。","院長，您可以看一下簡報左上角，他本來是一個KOL，他的帳號被下架以後，再看左下角，搜尋同樣的KOL名字就立刻跑出一堆假的，這不是在助長詐騙集團嗎？在簡報右邊也是另外一個用粉專在營業推廣知識的平臺，他就來陳情抱怨，因為被打詐而下架，立刻跑出一堆假的平臺，假冒他們的身分去騙錢。我想請院長真的要了解，如果我們打詐真的有這種由政府發出通知而錯殺的情況，這就是在幫助詐騙集團，院長同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會儘量避免，但同時這個內容的審查跟民眾與平臺雙方之間也有可能是他們內部的商業行為，這個倒不是一概而論，全部都這樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：不是一概而論……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會注意。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是政府要負政府的責任，同意吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們會注意。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們來看一下，政府其實有責任，這些都是非常明確的，數發部可以封鎖把服務搶起來，然後內政部刑事局可以說臺灣人不能看，還有完全沒有證據就說人家有詐欺的嫌疑，整個帳號被停權卻沒有證據，哪個單位、哪個情況完全不知道。請問院長，當民眾因為政府單位錯誤通報被下架以後，民眾應該要如何申訴？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們期待平臺……"],["葛委員如鈞：這些單位。"],["卓院長榮泰：平臺有一個申訴的管道，但如果……"],["葛委員如鈞：政府需不需要？因為政府有通知嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：政府如果可以的話，我們也可以做一些這樣的協助……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯！"],["卓院長榮泰：或是提供一些管道來幫忙。"],["葛委員如鈞：管道待會我們會提到，誰要對這個錯誤負責？有沒有賠償的機制？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果真的是……"],["葛委員如鈞：很多粉專就是他們營業的方法啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們第一個當然是……"],["葛委員如鈞：一個粉專就是一個公司啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個當然是要求公部門能夠嚴格的要求自己，但如果出現了這樣的錯誤，我們第一個是協助民眾儘快恢復，如果有不得恢復的事情，那可能會衍生其他民事等等的問題，我覺得那就是個法律問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長說要趕快協助。其實現在的狀況就是數發部完全沒有管道來協助民眾，我們看一下通報網的流程，裡面有審核機關，結果完全沒有任何一個機制去審核這些審核機關、去監督這些監督機關。我想問一下數發部部長，民眾去請數發部下架有單一窗口嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有網路詐騙通報查詢網……"],["葛委員如鈞：是，我說的是帳號被停權的一般受害的百姓。"],["黃部長彥男：有，我們有申訴管道，另外……"],["葛委員如鈞：什麼樣的申訴管道？如果申訴管道有效的話，還會有這麼多人要陳情？三千多人要成立自救會嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，很多不是我們去……像Meta有一個社群守則，這個社群守則很多是他們根據內部的自律機制去處理，並不是我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長，我已經都show給部長看了，你們的部會名稱都在這裡。院長，如果只要有錯下架，你們都說是平臺的責任，那我讓平臺來當數發部部長，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員……"],["葛委員如鈞：不能這樣子，我們先講，沒有關係，部長，我相信數發部很想把事情做好，我們現在一起把事情做好。我們來看一下這張圖，我直接就問，中間的審核機關可以決定名單，通報平臺去下架，這個部分沒問題，這張圖是你們自己的圖，請問這個審核機關有沒有平衡的機制？有沒有人可以二次把關？這個審核機關有沒有誘因去提高它的辨識率，不要亂下架？是什麼機制，告訴我。"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在就是在精進這個機制，我剛才講的就是，比如像很多牽涉到健康、衛福，那就由衛福部來審查，我們沒辦法做第二次審查。"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛，所以……"],["黃部長彥男：交通的話，就由交通部來審查，或者是各個部會負責審查自己內部的內容，像詐騙廣告是要給目的事業主管機關……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，知道了，由各機關嘛！所以院長，今天我要透過這個渠道來讓您知道，各個目的事業主管機關的認定是沒有任何人可以制衡、沒有任何人可以檢查，我們完全不知道任何一個部會今天提供了多少清單，有多少人被下架，哪些是錯誤的，我們有這樣的機制嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，如果你要再加一個機制下去，那整個下架流程會變更長，我們現在希望是24小時下架，如果你要再去重新審查……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以就是求快，剛剛那三千人的權益都可以損失嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：三千人不見得都是我們要求下架，這是他們的社群守則……"],["葛委員如鈞：那有沒有是你們的啊？我再show一次，有沒有你們的嘛？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，那只有……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想你們……事實上我們都很清楚，正確率其實是不夠的啦！我只是不想在這裡……大家都是同行，我想要提出一個具體的建議，機關不可以獨斷獨行，做出侵害民眾的權益，我們要有double check的機制，不然某個機關心情好就多殺一點，心情不好就多錯一點，有什麼關係？有沒有平衡的方法？有打詐儀錶板，可不可以也有下架儀錶板？讓大家可以知道發生什麼事，在儀錶板旁邊可以有申訴，院長可不可以責成數發部把這件事情做好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我先講一句話，我幾年前也被下架過，那時候並沒有這個通報的平臺，那個下架就是他們的內部管理，所以今天所有的下架都歸於這個平臺……"],["葛委員如鈞：我沒有全部歸於這個平臺，但是這個機制不完美，部長也承認了。"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員提供我們看看有沒有更好的方式，一個安全的機制……"],["葛委員如鈞：有，我剛剛提出了，有打詐儀錶板，可不可以有下架儀錶板？現在民眾沒有人知道誰是被錯下架，誰是自己真的做了壞事，沒有任何證據。院長，我們希望責成，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個要求，我們事先在審核的時候，各部會依照他的部會業務要嚴格的來審核……"],["葛委員如鈞：機制優化，嚴格處理。不好意思，我時間有限，還有一個很重要的問題，我們剛剛討論的是平臺，我們現在討論的是連整個網站跟服務都有可能被封鎖，我們看到數發部有說：很成功，攔阻了幾萬件、幾十萬件。但是結果發生什麼事？DNS RPZ是鎖掉整個平臺跟網域，Google可以直接被認定詐騙將其封網；Telegram可以直接被牆；連Azure這個雲端平臺的服務，包括超商、企業連到這裡的全部被封鎖，沒辦法解鎖。院長知道為什麼嗎？因為公文系統也是用這個平臺在建設的，所以公文發不出去。我想要問的就是，我們沒有一個機制去做，但是部長之前有說了，給平臺服務也有救濟管道，請問部長，救濟管道在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛委員建議的就是，我們以後會在網路通報系統加一個鏈結，不過現在遇到這種狀況時直接聯絡我們數發部的窗口，我們都會去處理。另外一點，其實這些平臺也有申訴管道，所以從平臺申訴也可以，這也是一個申訴管道。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，您是數發部部長，平臺是平臺，如果您再這樣做，那我們請平臺來做數發部好了！我想我們不要這樣，我們先繼續。","請問院長，機關依照防詐條例第四十二條可以用DNS RPZ直接認定封鎖，不用經過審核，為什麼？您可以看一下，各目的事業主管機關、您底下的所有部會，只要認為有問題就可以直接全部封掉！剛剛全部的問題都是因為這一條，院長，為什麼可以這樣？是不是可以檢討一下？可不可以檢討一下這個流程跟機制，有沒有濫用的問題、濫用法條的問題，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個認定如果是依法認定，應該沒有適法上的問題；但依法的這個法是不是合理？那就是另外一個……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們給空間跟條件，但在執行上拜託要好好處理……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要嚴謹去認定。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯，嚴謹！緊急案件我們理解，可是沒有制衡跟濫用，這個我們認為絕對不可以！很多錯誤跟判斷若沒有把關，就會造成什麼問題？降分！網路人權也是人權，數位人權也是人權。根據美國自由之家對網路自由度的報告來看，我們在2022年跟2023年都下降，你知道為什麼嗎？我想院長不清楚，所以我直接給你看。2022年降分是因為你們封鎖了、因為你們屏蔽了；2023年你們在刑事案件裡直接對網站實施屏蔽，沒有任何的監督機制與監察機制。所以我們想要講的是，不透明、沒有監察機制，就有錯殺、亂殺。我們作為民主國家，一個數位帳號也是一個數位的人，數位人權也是人權，數位民主也是民主，數位資訊自由也是自由！如果沒有審查機制，沒有嚴格執行的作法，就會影響到我們的數位人權！院長，可不可以在一個月內對保障數位人權提出報告？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請數發部儘速研究一個合理的救濟管道與機制，過程中也請委員提供高見。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請林楚茵委員質詢，陳冠廷委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163537","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163537","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6862bd2f79e3675f418cf3659852ed2503eea2082bcc3166d56161e727e47ac5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"16:50:44 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再把它往下降我們現在思索更多的方式現在幾乎是呈現一個比較水平的狀態我們現在在思索是如何把它往下降所以第一個不讓它往上升"},{"start":218.263,"end":228.865,"text":"初期達到這樣的要求所以我們幾項速度在我們設定是達標的但這些達標不代表我們有多少成效是我們現在下一個階段就是希望把它往下降"},{"start":229.818,"end":251.452,"text":"所以我們現在目前先控管數字不要往上飆升用的方法就是剛剛我們所說的市詐賭詐房詐主詐以及懲詐這幾項內容他也達標了那我們還用科技引入找出這個潛在的被害人等等的方式而且我們知道年輕人跟"},{"start":252.566,"end":271.884,"text":"退休的比較高齡的朋友們他們容易在某些季節裡面變成受害的對象我們也鎖定這些關鍵的時刻院長我們不斷在宣導我們不斷在把這些訊息讓我們周邊的人知道可是為什麼"},{"start":274.093,"end":297.911,"text":"重點在哪裡是因為對方就是詐騙的人他的手法日新月異但是我們都是由各個單位然後固定一個禮拜開一次會如果必要的時候才由政委召集會議你知道政委召集幾次會議了嗎"},{"start":300.202,"end":311.262,"text":"林明清政委是經常召集很多次會議我沒有辦法算出他幾次會議還有他跟司法院也在做溝通其實政委召集會議就四次那雖然我們"},{"start":313.39,"end":330.256,"text":"每個禮拜每個月我們這些小組打造辦公室指揮中心都會開會可是我們被負責的部分就是只有報告而已而且我們沒有一個主責單位"},{"start":332.657,"end":360.913,"text":"在抓出到底別人怎麼在利用心理因素然後日新月異的詐騙手法我們沒有一個單位主要在監控這些訊息你知道這個詐騙集團他是每天他覺得你有辦法突破我我就有辦法突破你"},{"start":364.562,"end":373.931,"text":"可是重點是人家是一個集團每天就是在思考這些詐騙的手法但是我們有沒有這樣的主責單位每天在跟他鬥法沒有"},{"start":384.69,"end":410.178,"text":"我們都只是有了這些訊息被詐騙了收集這些資料變成樣板然後我們再從這些樣板思考這些方式去針對它去防堵它但是人家已經又換了一個手法了現在的問題是在這裡所以你看喔我們的資料我把它特別調出來"},{"start":411.345,"end":433.31,"text":"我們被詐騙的被害人其實24歲到39歲他是最高峰的他是最高峰的然後第二順位是誰40歲到59歲然後再來是12歲到23歲你知道光24歲到39歲他最被詐騙的人數就52140人"},{"start":440.011,"end":445.434,"text":"然後40歲到59歲被詐騙的是38,792人12歲到23歲是24,424人我們有沒有去分析為什麼24歲到39歲被詐騙的人是最多的"},{"start":460.543,"end":489.554,"text":"我們如果沒有從這個族群去做分析我們沒有辦法了解為什麼我們的被詐騙人數一直居高不下再來我們從詐騙被害人的這些資料收集他的教育程度其實高中職是最高峰的是第一名的總共占了六萬四千兩百五十二位"},{"start":490.629,"end":511.167,"text":"大專是第二是佔了44943為什麼我們有沒有去了解為什麼在教育程度當中被詐騙的第一名教育程度是高中職然後第二名是大專院校"},{"start":512.662,"end":533.052,"text":"如果我們沒有把這些細節把它區分出來我們就不知道問題會出在哪裡所以你看我們的數字2024年2024年被損失的金額總共整年度是1332億250萬2547元"},{"start":540.626,"end":567.079,"text":"到了目前2025年截至到7月底為止是565億5680萬5000元你看我們不斷的在宣導其實我們走到哪裡都在宣導我們都跟大家講拜託天上沒掉下來的禮物從簡訊跟你說恭喜你中獎了可是"},{"start":570.677,"end":584.191,"text":"一開始他們用簡單說恭喜你中獎可是現在他們的手法已經改變了他們居然可以了解到你都在哪一個網站買東西"},{"start":587.133,"end":608.248,"text":"而且都知道說你可能在哪一個時段哪一個時間你密集在哪一個網站買東西然後突然之間傳了一個訊息給你說我告訴你因為你在哪裡哪一個網站買東西但是我們都刷了"},{"start":609.815,"end":638.532,"text":"那你會不會很懷疑 不會啊因為他講的資訊很正確啊我確實在哪一個時間 哪一個時段我有在哪一個網站買東西所以他就打電話去問說 欸 你說我多刷了 你要退還給我就中了我的經驗 我都用貨到付款絕不給他賬號"},{"start":640.37,"end":662.025,"text":"但是我們現在手機LiPayApplePay非常的方便非常的方便根本就不會想到用貨到付款除非我們開始宣導拜託大家貨到付款可以這樣宣導嗎"},{"start":663.677,"end":687.901,"text":"不一定每個人都適用對啊不一定每個人都適用嘛所以我一直在講為什麼我們這個族群24到39歲族群是最多的因為這個族群用LiPay Apple Pay非常多最方便還有第二名是40到59歲因為這個年齡層也是"},{"start":693.717,"end":709.018,"text":"第三12歲到23歲剛好這三個年齡層所以我說院長你應該責成他們去做分析要把這些問題點找出來我們才有防炸的一個利基點"},{"start":710.382,"end":738.989,"text":"還有為什麼明明我們常在講我們不斷宣導希望大家不要受騙那應該我們受教育的程度如果越高的話我們認為應該比較不會受騙但是為什麼不一定為什麼我們要不要找出原因我們現在常常在活動當中跟阿公阿嬤去宣導可是如果依照這個數字"},{"start":741.139,"end":761.742,"text":"應該被宣導的阿公阿嬤很重要可是在24歲到39歲也很重要所以我在講的是我們要對症下藥要怎麼對症下藥如果我們沒有把這些數字很清楚的做分析那我們很難對症下藥啊"},{"start":763.739,"end":782.515,"text":"我相信內政部 警政署 打詐中心他們都有做各種不同的分析今天我們呈現出來的是從案件來做分析這個年齡的分析 族群的分析應該都是一個基礎上的分析我可以請他們應該有做這個分析的資料我們跟委員一起來研究"},{"start":783.134,"end":801.786,"text":"院長不是只有分析就是他們有分析啊所以我才拿得到這些資料啊就是他們有所謂族群這個哪一個年齡層最多然後那個次多的是誰就是因為他們有這個所以我拿得到資料重點是為什麼"},{"start":803.54,"end":822.083,"text":"為什麼我們要去把這些案例做一個比對是不是這些人因為用iPad、iPad比較多用Apple Pay的比較多或做什麼樣的一個直接用手機支付的比較多網路購物的比較多我覺得我們去做這個分析"},{"start":823.221,"end":838.26,"text":"所以院長 因為這些資料一定是他們有把它分析出來有這個基礎我只是拜託他們有沒有把所有的案例再做比對為什麼"},{"start":839.721,"end":868.522,"text":"應該我們要的是這些比較潛在的資料那麼我們才能對於這些族群去做一些宣導甚至一些防堵甚至有一些要求我們一定要有這樣的一個數字所以院長這是我的想法非常好我們不想要拜託你 必要是朝這個方向因為我們在地方實在是接受太多的訊息了"},{"start":869.73,"end":882.933,"text":"所以拜託院長可能要折成我們這些相關單位來做這個部分那剩只有幾秒鐘的時間我跟院長報告一下要拜託一下我的板子呢"},{"start":886.943,"end":913.234,"text":"我要拜託我們的這個院長因為我板子沒拿下來就是說院長有兩個部分拜託就是我們家戶這個防水閘板的部分家戶防水閘板申請趕快做專案的核准凱米有 我們丹納斯沒有大家都期待第二個就是農民勞工的紓困貸款"},{"start":916.036,"end":927.967,"text":"這個會有一個及時語這個及時語很重要這兩個部分拜託院長給我們一個最快速的一個回應我們盡量納入特別條例特別預算當中來好 謝謝陳廷飛委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（16時50分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好，辛苦了，謝謝你。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長這幾天、這段時間除了要忙著我們臺南的風災、雨災，還有很多縣市的狀況，你辛苦了，但打詐也是很重要的議題。我知道從我們民進黨執政以來，甚至是賴總統上任以來，其實我們對於打詐的議題是非常關注的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後從賴總統開始，我們也一路從2024年有了打詐五法，也有打詐新四法，但是我們也重新建立所謂的打詐儀錶板，讓大家可以看得到到底我們現在被詐騙的數字有多少，所以很多人就說，感覺好像我們的數字越來越多，可是賴總統說：不是，是因為我們要求所有各單位、各部會要據實呈現所有人員或是人民被詐騙的數字。所以這可以讓人感受到我們沒有掩飾、也沒有掩蓋所有的狀況，讓大家可以很清楚了解。原本我們是期待大家看到這些數字會很驚慌、會很擔憂，可是我們看了之後，反而有一度數字可能有稍微往下降，但之後又往上了。","我們也看到了最近的幾個案例，臺中一家五口命案，死者說：「我們全家都被詐騙了，沒有錢，走上了絕路」；還有看到汐止老夫妻輕生，因為被詐騙了250萬，這些都是眼睜睜讓我們看到的數字跟這些社會案件的發生。我要問院長，在我們的打詐五法、打詐新四法之後，然後我們也看到了打詐儀錶板，整個數字從113年8月一路下來，到了114年1月、2月，好像有往下降了，可是還是再往上飆升，對於我們看到的這些數字，院長，你有什麼感受？"],["卓院長榮泰：比較低的月份，它有它的因素，就是每年大概在那個時候是比較低的，往年都是這樣子。我們現在是每個禮拜，剛剛說過了，在我們的政務會議中，林明昕政委都會把這個數字向政委們說明，我們就有一直在掌握，不論如何不讓它再往上升，一定先把它壓平，再把它往下降。我們現在有在思索更多的方式，而且現在幾乎是呈現一個比較水平的狀態，我們現在在思索的是如何把它往下降，所以第一個是不讓它往上升，這個我們粗淺有達到這樣的要求，所以有幾項的數字在我們的設定上是達標的，但這些達標不代表我們有多少的成效，現在我們下一個階段的目標就是希望把它往下降。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們目前是先控管，讓數字不要往上飆升？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，使用的方法就是剛剛我們所說的識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐以及懲詐這幾項內容，它也達標了，我們還用科技引入，找出潛在的被害人等等的方式，而且我們知道年輕人跟已經退休、比較高齡的朋友們容易在某些季節裡面變成受害的對象，我們也鎖定這些關鍵的時刻。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，我們不斷在宣導，我們不斷讓我們周邊的人知道這些訊息，可是為什麼？重點在哪裡？就是對方也就是詐騙者的手法日新月異。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是我們都是由各個單位固定一個禮拜開一次會，如果必要的時候才由政委召集會議，你知道政委召集幾次會議了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：林明昕政委召集了很多次會議，我沒有辦法算出是幾次會議，還有他跟司法院也在做溝通。"],["陳委員亭妃：我跟院長報告，其實政委召集的會議就是4次，雖然我們這些小組、打詐辦公室、指揮中心每個禮拜、每個月都會開會，可是所負責的部分就是只有報告而已，而且我們沒有一個主責單位在抓出別人到底怎麼利用心理因素然後想出日新月異的詐騙手法，我們沒有一個單位是主要在監控這些訊息。你知道嗎？詐騙集團是每天在想，他覺得你有辦法突破我，我就有辦法突破你，仙拚仙！重點是人家是一個集團，每天就是在思考這些詐騙的手法，在想要怎麼樣從別人的手裡騙錢，可以騙多少算多少，但是我們有沒有這樣的主責單位每天在跟他鬥法？沒有！我們都只是有這些訊息，有人被詐騙了，蒐集這些資料變成樣板，然後我們再從這些樣板思考一些方式去針對他們進行防堵，但是人家已經又換了一個手法，現在的問題是在這裡。","你看我們的資料，我有特別調出來，我們被詐騙的被害人其實以24歲到39歲為最高峰；然後第二順位是誰？就是40歲到59歲；再來是12歲到23歲。你知道嗎？光是24歲到39歲被詐騙的人數就有5萬2,140人；然後40歲到59歲被詐騙的是3萬8,792人；12歲到23歲是2萬4,424人。我們有沒有去分析為什麼24歲到39歲被詐騙的人是最多的？我們如果沒有就這個族群去做分析，我們就沒有辦法了解為什麼我們被詐騙的人數一直居高不下。","再來，我們從詐騙被害人的這些資料分析他的教育程度，其實高中職是最高峰的，是第一名的，總共有6萬4,252位；大專是第二，有4萬4,943人。為什麼會這樣？我們有沒有去了解為什麼被詐騙者居第一名的教育程度是高中職，然後第二名是大專院校？如果我們沒有把這些細節區分出來，我們就不知道問題是出在哪裡。","你看我們的數字，在2024年損失金額整年度總共是1,332億250萬2,547元；在2025年截至7月底是565億5,680萬5,000元。你看我們不斷的在宣導，其實我們走到哪裡都在宣導，我們都跟大家講：拜託，天上沒掉下來的禮物！從簡訊跟你說「恭喜你中獎了」，那是騙人的。","可是一開始他們簡單說「恭喜你中獎」，可是現在他們的手法已經改變了，他們居然可以了解到你都在哪一個網站買東西，而且都知道你可能在哪一個時段、哪一個時間、密集在哪一個網站買東西，然後突然之間傳了一個訊息給你：因為你在哪裡、哪一個網站買東西，但是他們多刷了。那你會不會很懷疑？不會，因為他講的資訊很正確，你確實在哪一個時間、哪一個時段、有在哪一個網站買東西。所以就會有人打電話去問：你說我多刷了，你要退還給我。就中了！"],["卓院長榮泰：依我的經驗，我都用貨到付款，絕不會給他帳號。"],["陳委員亭妃：但是我們現在手機LINE Pay、Apple Pay非常的方便。"],["卓院長榮泰：太簡單、太輕易了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對不對？非常的方便，根本就不會想到用貨到付款，除非我們開始宣導：拜託大家貨到付款。可以這樣宣導嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定每個人都適用。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊，不一定每個人都適用嘛。所以我一直在講，為什麼24到39歲這個族群是最多的？因為這個族群用LINE Pay、Apple Pay非常多，最方便；還有第二名是40到59歲，因為這一個年齡層也是；第三名是12歲到23歲，剛好這三個年齡層。所以我說院長應該責成他們去做分析，要把這些問題點找出來，我們才有防詐的一個立基點。","還有，明明我們不斷宣導、希望大家不要受騙，因此受教育程度如果越高的話，我們認為應該比較不會受騙……"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定。"],["陳委員亭妃：不一定嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：為什麼？我們要不要找出原因？我們現在常常在活動當中跟阿公阿嬤宣導，可是如果依照這個數字，應該被宣導的……阿公阿嬤很重要，可是24歲到39歲也很重要。","所以我在講的是，我們要對症下藥，要怎麼對症下藥？如果我們沒有把這些數字很清楚地做分析，那我們很難對症下藥啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我相信內政部警政署打詐中心都有做各種不同的分析，包含今天我們呈現出來的這種依案件做分析，另外年齡的分析、族群的分析應該都是一個基礎上的分析，我可以請他們將這些分析資料跟委員一起來研究。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，不是只有分析，就是他們有分析，所以我才拿得到這些資料，他們有針對所謂的族群，包含哪一個年齡層最多、次多的是誰，就是因為他們有這個分析，所以我拿得到資料。","重點是為什麼！要知道為什麼，我們要去把這些案例做比對，是不是因為這些人用LINE Pay的比較多、用Apple Pay的比較多，或是用手機支付的比較多、網路購物的比較多，我覺得我們要去做這個分析。院長，這些資料一定是他們有把它分析出來……"],["卓院長榮泰：基礎上都有這些資料。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，有這個基礎，我只是拜託他們要把所有的案例再做比對，關於為什麼！我們要的應該是這些比較潛在的資料，那麼我們才能對於這些族群去做一些宣導，甚至一些防堵、甚至有一些要求，我們一定要有這樣的一個數字，院長，這是我的想法，所以要拜託你……"],["卓院長榮泰：非常好，必定是朝這個方向……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們在地方實在是接受太多的訊息了，所以拜託院長可能要責成這些相關單位來做這個部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["陳委員亭妃：剩下只有幾秒鐘的時間，我跟院長報告，要拜託一下院長，有兩個部分，就是我們家戶防水閘板的部分，申請的家戶防水閘板要趕快做專案的核准，凱米有，但我們丹娜絲沒有，大家都很期待。第二個就是農民、勞工的紓困貸款，這個會有一個及時雨，這個及時雨很重要，這兩個部分拜託院長給我們一個最快速的回應，拜託！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們儘量納入特別條例、特別預算當中來一併處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員質詢、謝謝卓院長備詢。","報告院會，現在在我們議場二樓旁聽的是來自香港之友會、莒光文化服務中心兩個團體，熱情掌聲、熱情歡迎。","接下來請葛如鈞委員質詢，林楚茵委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6e8bef66b3380eb7318cf3659852ed2501e4857ed62c58545ec6d484a9071cdc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"16:34:45 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謝謝韓院長 我們現在請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21.309,"end":37.634,"text":"黃委員好院長好 院長我想一整天我想我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員謝謝委員從早上到現在非常多大家從各個角度來關心我們這個台灣的詐騙委員一定可以給我更多更好的建議我相信應該可以 來"},{"start":38.914,"end":64.151,"text":"一開始我想先放一下新聞當然這個新聞片段的這個標題為什麼要特別提這個我想院長也看過這些新聞但是我跟院長報告這個只是兵山一角為什麼因為我的支持者我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭他沒有上新聞他就是因為被詐騙家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力他選擇結束自己的生命那這個當然沒有上新聞那他一定會在"},{"start":64.833,"end":82.932,"text":"政府的統計數據裡面它是一個聲明它只是一個數字所以今天院長在這邊我們在這邊質詢在這邊討論詐騙問題我們談了很多數字但是我今天一開始要放這些新聞讓院長知道說我們希望要怎麼樣去解決台灣的詐騙問題最核心的是我們把每一個詐騙案"},{"start":84.113,"end":105.238,"text":"它背後代表的是很多的家庭它代表的可能是每一個人的生計把它放在心裡面去面對這些事情我想我們才有辦法去用同理心去了解受害者的心情因為我想過去在整個司法體系裡面在整個大環境裡面大家認為詐騙好像是小罪 是輕罪從它的量刑 從它的判決"},{"start":106.178,"end":123.979,"text":"看起來過去是這樣子那當然陸陸續續包含說發生這種詐團去虐求這種詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高有這麼多人選擇這樣的方式解除自己生命所以導致說國人現在非常注重詐騙的這個問題所以我要拜託的是說一開始我們討論這是你的前提是要把詐騙它視為"},{"start":125.561,"end":151.655,"text":"非常嚴重甚至是國安等級的問題來面對這樣子我想院長幫我們行政團隊我們社會各界大家才能夠認真的去考慮這件事情好不好 院長沒錯 我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安而且可能影響到動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的這個層面來看它確實是一個高層次的治安甚至已經進入到一個國安的要求裡面去了"},{"start":152.095,"end":171.884,"text":"我想這個詐騙制動搖國本我們從今年不談去年或前年因為院長你們不斷強調統計數字不一樣那我們就以新的統計方式來看待我想從詐騙的財損來看每個月這麼多錢被騙走平均一天大概兩億到三億我想整個台灣社會有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走"},{"start":172.904,"end":191.591,"text":"那真正的確實我也沒有否認說大家很辛苦有去查扣有查扣沒錯但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額我想不成比例啊詐騙集團現在基本上是等於台灣最賺錢的行業但是我們在追溯在查扣的比例裡面我們真的效果不好啊"},{"start":192.071,"end":207.737,"text":"那效果不好到什麼程度包含說今天所有委員都放了那支影片我本來也想放但是沒關係我節省時間我們看到那個影片那個廖什麼廖先生我問他叫什麼名字他在他的這個社群上面"},{"start":208.496,"end":227.591,"text":"各地都傳這影片那這個廖先生他敢這樣做就表示說他認為詐騙是輕罪對他來講確實他很快就假釋出來了他把這個錢繳一繳他就出來了然後繼續上網去講說啊沒關係想要賺錢的什麼叫做尻的什麼叫做水的這些專業術語"},{"start":228.692,"end":248.449,"text":"我等會都要上網查一下但是對他們來講對這個社群來講好像是一個天生的與生俱來他就知道怎麼做的事情所以比方說這個事情這個詐騙問題已經深入到很多的年輕族群很多不汙真人的人他認為反正不管我是真的去做詐騙我去做什麼做尻的我去做水的"},{"start":249.089,"end":277.101,"text":"我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的騙過這個司法系統我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的走進法院裡面可能連監獄都不用進去因為他可能半年就出來了半年就出來之後裡面還有一些是什麼勞務役他根本連進去都不用進去他根本不受任何影響我們看真正的這個數據我們看那個詐我們看下一頁刑度統計真正的刑度統計你可以看到說有罪人數確實你們在報告裡面提到"},{"start":278.052,"end":303.469,"text":"我們在懲詐的部分今年抓了詐團2025團查獲15912人這個是我們第一線的檢警調非常辛苦的把這些人抓到了那抓到之後院長你看一下這個數據啊我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了這個數據有罪的人每個月每年像一萬多人兩萬人這樣子抓但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%0.3%0.4%"},{"start":309.124,"end":321.971,"text":"六個月以下的20%一年以上三年以下的50%那還有拘役的所以我們花了這麼多社會資源這麼多社會成本剪剪掉這麼認真這麼多宣導抓到了"},{"start":322.864,"end":351.821,"text":"但收進法院判決出來即便我們修法了我要講為什麼特別提今年度因為去年通過打詐條例所以我們本來期待的我們第一時間期待就是說為什麼要修打詐條例當初修打詐條例包含修新法339條之四都是因為說過去看到這樣的數據覺得這麼多人犯罪我抓到了我們希望他至少判刑他的這量刑能夠重一點能夠懲戒比較稍微效果但是從去年修完法到今年為止"},{"start":352.81,"end":381.173,"text":"你看這個數據它的比例並沒有明顯的改變欸六個月以下還是佔兩成多一年以上 一年以上 三年以下的也是要佔五成真的被判到三年以上我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪要判到三年以上的一樣只佔百分之零點多而已不佔百分之一喔到底問題出在哪裡到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題還是整個法界 我們整個政府機關對於詐騙沒有把他視為重罪才有導致這個結果我們嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明"},{"start":382.618,"end":406.004,"text":"這部分這份統計數字的話因為我們那個詐偽條例的提高刑度是在去年一一三年八月才開始實行那案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間那我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的一個案件這個是在舊法時期就是最多是用那個刑法三三九之四的那個刑度那目前的話我們的確是有我們"},{"start":407.064,"end":427.215,"text":"认为这个技能新法的成立而且这个诈团的期限一定要再压制所以我们有要求检查要具体修行那具体修行我们台高检署也有定一个球形的一个标准给检查做参考那我们要增加那个积压率让这些诈团的这些手模这些以及用握力板的条款"},{"start":427.891,"end":454.928,"text":"來做一個遏止這些詐團的棄業我想這部分的效果會一段時間就會很明顯的看出來那我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員有說料性攔截側面這個是警方已經移送給Unity監視我想Unity會火速的來處理這個案件來以正視聽因為這一種的話有涉及有可能會涉及到刑法153條的善或他能犯罪"},{"start":455.488,"end":474.571,"text":"犯罪的這一種 緩衛秩序罪的這些的問題那我想這個的確是此風不可漲這個真是一個假釋中的一個這個怎麼可以去散貨委員部長 這個個案喔那我想這部份這個個案當然要處理啦這個個案當然要處理但是我們今天見為之助嘛今天他敢這樣做"},{"start":475.828,"end":487.118,"text":"他可以光明正大的那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了我也是在社群上看到他發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張但我相信這樣子的心態這樣子的"},{"start":488.13,"end":512.953,"text":"這個社群它這樣子的組織它不是唯一一個一定前面很多人做過類似的事情不斷的回溯不斷的再來一遍又一遍包含說前面也有問的我們這種判所謂的詐欺犯罪這些輕罪的人他們的債範率到底多少多少人被抓了被判了半年之後我出來然後我繼續投入同樣的產業繼續再做一樣事情這部分的數據到底我們法務部有沒有掌握"},{"start":513.776,"end":539.99,"text":"這部分我們有委員有需要的話我們可以提供給你們做一個參考那我想這個這個輕判的這個大家社會認為輕判我相信在一個假以時日我想這個整個效果會顯示出來因為我跟委員報告其實以前我們繳證署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了那個毒品的這邊一直降從五成降到四成"},{"start":540.751,"end":562.793,"text":"現在榨漆是一直在增加那個比例所以現在新收人犯新收最多的就是榨漆犯所以我想這個效果我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果但是我們在等這個時間因為總是要一個審判的期間這樣才會看出它具體的成果這種數字是屬於"},{"start":564.034,"end":579.552,"text":"那個還沒有確定的一個我們希望這個數字能夠盡快呈現因為我提到了去年八月到現在快一年了那當然這個數字案件辦董事要有一定的心法要加快啦這個我是希望說行政的立場也好或是從司法立場也好或從我們多數民的立場"},{"start":581.253,"end":608.06,"text":"這個騙就是事實嘛我錢一直被騙走我每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走如果我們把它視為常態的一般像以前這樣我要這樣強調為什麼一開始我要講這個案例就是因為我們過去當然你把它視為說這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情那當然我們就按照流程來處理但今天我想詐騙的問題是動搖國本動搖民間的資產這個真的是我們常常講以前常常講長富於民啊沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙耶一直被騙耶"},{"start":609.04,"end":623.488,"text":"那這部分當然希望說這些去做詐騙的人就算他是車手車手被視為說是整個詐騙的產業裡面最底層的但是如果沒有這些車手詐騙也沒辦法成因為你每次都講我們也抓不到手謀啊"},{"start":626.83,"end":654.058,"text":"總是要把他手腳砍斷這個跟委員報告我想我們努力現在破獲了今年來就破獲2200多個炸團有 我看到報告上面有這個數據不是只有單純一個數據這個炸團整個一個非常大就一個炸團的話就可以壓50幾個人所以我想我們的努力我想如果委員有在注意我們檢警調的這些的懲罰的績效我想你就很有印象"},{"start":654.258,"end":683.213,"text":"好 部長謝謝再來談一下方法論的部分當然過去我也非常關注詐騙包含因為這是我自己的支持者親身經歷過所以我再提近代域立法院包含提了電信管理法這個二類電信詐騙我們要處理因為二類電信過去也是很多人透過二類電信這個法律的修正也走了一年才終於在基點終於刪讀那後續現在正在執行那當然執行成效好不好也需要等待時間出來那二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理我們的所謂的預付卡"},{"start":684.393,"end":695.264,"text":"傳統名稱移工卡 外勞卡這部分兩百多萬一路在外面 辦兩百多萬張但說真的 我國的所謂不管合法的 非法的移工大約就一百萬左右"},{"start":696.24,"end":717.376,"text":"就像你把桃園外島全部抓進去一百萬左右但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張那到底多的卡去哪裡了我們到底現在查到什麼程度在給我的數據裡面目前只有查了一百六十五萬筆那我就很好奇啊電信是有心靈資料的我們如果總外籍人士只有一百萬左右而已我有兩百多萬張卡"},{"start":718.783,"end":729.28,"text":"它不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起吧同一個人取下兩張卡有沒有在一起吧這不是應該很好查試為什麼要查了這麼久然後還有這麼多卡查不出來"},{"start":730.387,"end":754.517,"text":"跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底3家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來"},{"start":755.197,"end":776.117,"text":"那另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務"},{"start":777.881,"end":800.089,"text":"能夠阻止的不管是電信詐騙也好網絡詐騙也好金融詐騙也好我手上就有了資料就是你們能夠確實掌握到資料至少先把這個先斷掉嘛那其他的他用新的手法來騙用新的手法來鑽漏洞我們才有餘力去追查但是你現在是至少要先把手上能夠擁有的先處理完如果連手上擁有的本來我提到的心靈資料"},{"start":801.149,"end":823.704,"text":"一個人匹配他有兩張卡這兩張卡在不同地方出現他就擺明不同的人在使用這個應該就可以直接禁掉了不需要等那麼多時間對 這邊我們最後清查完畢就是他如果已經出境那卡還在國內就要給他停掉另外委員關心的此卡的數量部分我們也已經在納管就是說外國人大概只以一門為原則本國人是兩門"},{"start":824.693,"end":841.52,"text":"那如果说超过两门他要加强的KYC的一些封控也要求业主来做到这一点那我们未来除了在我们KYC指引之外我们现在在政委的打炸的修法里头我们打算修入就是打炸条例14条那边去"},{"start":842.11,"end":856.4,"text":"好主委謝謝喔院長接下來還有一個剛剛你提到說其實我們真的銀行很辛苦第一線警察很辛苦所以我們常去阻詐是用人工去阻詐行員說你不可以轉警察就說你不能轉他就硬要轉然後把他轉出去發現自己被騙了"},{"start":857.639,"end":886.804,"text":"我能參考新加坡啊因為你剛提的沒錯詐騙是全球問題就連法律大家認為最嚴格的新加坡他們詐騙也非常嚴重所以他們今年提了一個法案Protection from Scams Bill的一個法案做什麼事情他就是從被害者的角度去出發今天我們是用柔性勸導的我們台灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉啦那如果堅持要轉他還是能轉嘛新加坡他們的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式他認為有疑慮的他就發出限制令"},{"start":888.579,"end":912.648,"text":"這個帳戶不能把這個錢轉進去大筆的不能轉但是要保留你的生活費你有對詐騙的疑慮警察來介入 司法機關來介入把相關的錢保護起來雖然是圈存 凍存 凍結起來但是你的生活費你要繳學費你要繳房貸 你要繳日常的生活費一樣可以繼續支出這樣的方向有沒有可能在我們中華民國政府裡面來試用"},{"start":914.397,"end":925.052,"text":"因為我們到底是一個教育自由高度自由的國家跟社會我想要這樣做以保護被害人的身份是值得考量但是一定要取得社會的共識應該把這個議題讓大家來討論好謝謝黃建豪委員資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（16時34分）謝謝韓院長。我一樣請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好。我想一整天了，我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：從早上到現在，大家從各個角度來關心臺灣的詐騙問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一定可以給我更多、更好的建議。"],["黃委員健豪：我也相信應該可以。一開始，我先放一下新聞片段的標題，為什麼要特別提這個？我想院長看過這些新聞，但是我要跟院長報告，這個只是冰山一角，為什麼？因為我的支持者、我的選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭，雖然沒有上新聞，他就是因為被詐騙，家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力，他選擇結束自己的生命。這個當然沒有上新聞，但一定會在政府的統計數據裡面。他是一個生命，卻只是一個數字，所以今天我們在這邊質詢院長、討論詐騙問題，談了很多數字，但我今天一開始放這些新聞是要讓院長知道，怎麼樣去解決臺灣的詐騙問題，最核心的是每一個詐騙案背後代表的是很多家庭，代表的可能是每一個人的生計，把他放在心裡去面對這些事情，我們才有辦法用同理心了解受害者的心情。","過去在整個司法體系裡面、在整個大環境裡面，大家認為詐騙好像是小罪、輕罪，從它的量刑、從它的判決看起來，過去是這樣子，當然陸陸續續發生包含詐團虐囚、詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高，有這麼多人選擇以這樣的方式結束自己生命，導致國人現在非常注重詐騙這個問題。所以我要拜託，一開始我們討論這件事情的前提是要把詐騙視為非常嚴重、甚至是國安等級的問題來面對，這樣包含院長、行政團隊及社會各界，大家才能夠認真去考慮這件事情，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安，而且從可能影響、動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的層面來看，它確實是一個高層次的治安、甚至已經進入到國安的要求裡面。"],["黃委員健豪：詐騙真的動搖國本！我從今年，不談去年或前年，因為院長不斷強調統計數字不一樣，我們就以新的統計方式來看待。從詐騙的財損來看，每個月有這麼多錢被騙走，平均一天大概兩億到三億，整個臺灣社會竟有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走。我也沒有否認大家很辛苦，雖然有查扣沒錯，但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額不成比例。詐騙集團現在基本上是臺灣最賺錢的行業，但是我們追溯、查扣比例的效果真的不好，效果不好到什麼程度？","今天所有委員都放了那支影片，我本來也想放，但是沒關係，節省時間。我們看到那個影片有一位廖先生，我忘記他叫什麼名字了，他在他的社群上發影片，而各地都傳在這個影片，這個廖先生敢這樣做，就表示他認為詐騙是輕罪。對他來講，確實很快就假釋出來了，他把錢繳一繳就出來了，繼續上網說：沒關係，想要賺錢的、什麼叫做尻的、什麼叫做水的，這些專業術語連我都要上網查一下，但是對他們來講、對這個社群來講，好像是天生的、與生俱來就知道要怎麼做的事情。比方這個事情顯現詐騙問題已經深入到很多年輕族群、很多不務正業的人，他認為反正不管是不是真的去做詐騙，或是做尻的、做水的，能夠輕輕鬆鬆地騙過司法系統，能夠輕輕鬆鬆地走進法院裡面，可能連監獄都不用進去，因為他可能半年就出來了，半年出來之後，裡面還有一些是勞務役，他連進去都不用進去，根本不受任何影響。","更何況我們從真正的數據、真正的刑度統計可以看到有罪人數，你在報告裡面確實提到懲詐的部分，今年抓了詐團2,025團，查獲1萬5,912人，這是第一線的檢警調非常辛苦地把這些人抓到了，但抓到之後，院長看一下這個數據，我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了。這個數據顯示有罪的人每年有一萬多人、兩萬人這樣子抓，但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5%、0.3%、0.4%；六個月以下的20%；一年以上三年以下的50%；還有拘役的。所以我們花了這麼多社會資源、這麼多社會成本，檢警調這麼認真、這麼多宣導，抓到了，但送進法院判決出來，即便我們修法了，我為什麼特別提今年度？因為去年通過打詐條例，所以我們本來第一時間期待的，為什麼要修打詐條例？當初修打詐條例，包含修刑法第三百三十九條之四，都是因為過去看到這樣的數據，覺得這麼多人犯罪，我們抓到了，希望至少他的量刑能夠重一點，能夠讓懲戒稍微有效果，但是從去年修完法到今年為止，你看這個數據，它的比例並沒有明顯的改變耶！六個月以下還是占兩成多；一年以上三年以下的也是一樣占五成；真的被判到三年以上，我們打詐條例希望懲戒的所謂重罪，要判到三年以上的，一樣只占百分之零點多而已，不到1%喔！到底問題出在哪裡？到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹？還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題？還是整個法界、我們整個政府機關沒有把詐騙視為重罪，才導致這個結果？"],["卓院長榮泰：嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分統計數字，因為我們詐危條例提高刑度是在去年113年8月才開始施行，而案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間，我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的案件，這個是在舊法時期，最多是用刑法第三百三十九條之四的刑度。目前我們的確認為既然新法成立，而且對於詐團的氣焰一定要再壓制，所以我們有要求檢察官要具體求刑，並且我們臺高檢署也有訂求刑的標準給檢察官做參考，我們要增加羈押率，讓詐團的這些首謀……以及用窩裡反條款來遏止這些詐團的氣焰，我想這部分的效果一段時間後就會很明顯地看出來。","我再跟委員做一個補充，剛才委員說廖姓男子這個案件，警方已經移送給雲林地檢署，我想雲林地檢署會火速來處理，以正視聽，因為他有可能會涉及刑法第一百五十三條「煽惑他人犯罪」這種妨害秩序罪的問題。我想的確是此風不可長，假釋中的……怎麼可以去散播，這部分檢調會處理。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，這個個案當然要處理，但是我們今天見微知著，今天他敢這樣做，他可以光明正大的，那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了，我也是在社群上看到，才發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張。但我相信這樣子的心態、這樣子的社群、這樣子的組織，他不是唯一一個，一定前面很多人做過類似的事情，不斷地回溯，不斷再來一遍又一遍。包含前面也有委員問，這種判詐欺犯罪、這些輕罪的，他們的再犯率到底多少？多少人被抓了，被判了半年之後出來，然後又繼續投入同樣的產業，繼續在做一樣的事情？這部分的數據我們法務部到底有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分委員有需要，我們可以提供給你做參考，我想大家、社會認為輕判，但我相信假以時日，整個效果會顯現出來。我跟委員報告，其實以前我們矯正署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多，但現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了，毒品的一直降，從五成降到四成，而現在詐欺比例是一直增加，因此現在新收人犯、新收最多的就是詐欺犯。所以我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果，但是我們再等這個時間，因為總是要一個審判的期間，這樣才會看出它具體的成果，因此這個數字是屬於還沒有確定的數據。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我們希望這數字能夠儘快呈現，因為我前面提到，去年8月到現在快1年了啦！當然這個數字……"],["鄭部長銘謙：依新法辦案總是要有一定的時程……"],["黃委員健豪：要加快啦，我希望從行政的立場也好，或是從司法立場也好，或從我們多數民眾的立場，「騙」就是事實嘛，我錢一直被騙走，每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走，如果我們把它視為常態，像以前這樣……我還是要強調為什麼一開始要講這個案例？就是因為我們過去……當然你把它視為這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情，我們就按照流程來處理，但今天詐騙的問題是動搖國本、動搖民間的資產，我們以前常常講「藏富於民」，我沒想到民間有這麼多資金可以被騙，一直被騙耶！我們當然希望這些去做詐騙的人，就算他是車手，車手被視為是整個詐騙產業鏈裡面最底層的，但是如果沒有這些車手，詐騙也沒辦法成功，因為講真的你們也抓不到首謀啊，但總是要把他的手腳砍斷嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其實我們也很努力，以破獲案件來講，今年以來就破獲兩千兩百多個詐騙……"],["黃委員健豪：有，我看到這個報告上面有。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個數據不是只有單純的一個數據，整個詐團非常大，一個詐團就可以押五十幾個人，對於我們的努力，如果委員有在注意檢、警、調的懲詐績效，我相信你會很有印象。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。再來還是要討論方法論的部分，當然過去我也非常關注詐騙，因為這是我的支持者親身經歷過，所以我進來立法院之後包含提了電信管理法，針對二類電信詐騙我們要處理，因為過去也有很多人是透過二類電信，這個法令的修正也走了一年，才在今年終於三讀，現在正在執行，當然執行成效好或不好也需要等待時間出來。","二類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理？所謂的預付卡，傳統名稱移工卡、外勞卡這部分有兩百多萬張，移工在外面辦了兩百多萬張，但說真的，我國不管合法、非法的移工，大約就100萬左右，就算你把逃逸外勞全部抓進去，總數就是100萬左右，但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張，到底多的卡去哪裡了？現在到底查到什麼程度？在給我的數據裡面，目前只有查了165萬筆，那我就很好奇，電信是有信令資料的，如果總外籍人士只有100萬左右而已，但目前卻有兩百多萬張卡，那不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起嗎？同一個人名下的兩張卡有沒有在一起，這不是應該很好查的事情，為什麼查了這麼久，還有這麼多卡查不出來？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這部分我們是預計在8月底對於三家的兩百三十幾萬張全部都清查完畢，之所以會有時間的限制，是因為當初有些查的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業，在這邊也要謝謝刑事警察局及入出入出境管理局、移民署跟我們的合作，這一塊到8月底都會清查出來。另外，委員也關切這部分其實到現在為止已經停發25.6萬張，拒絕申辦14.6萬張，所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢，另外……"],["黃委員健豪：我今天提這個問題就是希望像我一開始所講的，我們整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務，能夠阻止的，不管是電信詐騙也好、網路詐騙也好、金融詐騙也好，就你們手上舊有的資料，就是你們能夠確實掌握到的資料，至少先把這個斷掉嘛，至於其他用新的手法來騙、用新的手法來鑽漏洞，我們才有餘力去追查，但是你現在至少要把手上能夠擁有的先處理完，如果連手上能擁有的都無法處理，像剛剛我提到的信令資料，一個人匹配他有兩張卡，這兩張卡在不同地方出現，那就擺明是不同一個人在使用，這個應該就可以直接禁掉，不需要等那麼多時間啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，這邊我們就會清查完畢，就是他如果已經出境，而卡還在國內的，我們就會給他停掉。","另外，委員關心的持卡數量的部分，我們也已經在納管，就是外國人只以一門為原則，本國人是兩門，如果超過兩門，就要加強KYC的一些風控，也要求業者做到這一點。未來除了在KYC的執行之外，目前在政委的打詐修法裡頭，我們打算修到打詐條例第十四條那邊去。"],["黃委員健豪：主委謝謝。院長，剛剛你提到銀行行員很辛苦，第一線警察很辛苦，也就是我們的阻詐常常是用人工去阻詐，行員說你不可以轉，警察說你不能轉，但他就硬要轉，然後轉出去之後發現自己被騙了。","我們可以參考新加坡，你剛剛說得沒錯，詐騙是全球問題，就連大家認為法律最嚴格的新加坡，他們的詐騙也非常嚴重，所以他們今年提了一個法案叫做Protection From Scams Bill，這是做什麼事情？就是從被害者的角度出發，今天我們是用柔性勸導，臺灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉，他如果堅持要轉，他還是能轉。新加坡的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式，他認為有疑慮的，他就發出限制令，這個帳戶不能把錢轉進去，大筆的不能轉，但是他保留你的生活費，你有對詐騙的疑慮，警察來介入、司法機關來介入，把相關的錢保護起來，算是圈存凍結起來，但是你的生活費、你要繳學費、你要繳房貸、你要繳日常的生活費，一樣可以繼續支出，這樣的方向有沒有可能在中華民國政府裡面來適用？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們到底還是一個交易自由、高度自由的國家跟社會，我想若要這樣做，基於保護被害人的身分，這是值得考量的，但是一定要取得社會的共識，應該把這個議題讓大家來討論。"],["黃委員健豪：好，院長謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請陳亭妃委員質詢，葛如鈞委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163535","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163535","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6ab9e6c9d88ab9c2118cf3659852ed2501e4857ed62c58545fc99ef46c3be2bc15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"16:18:25 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的青少年免於網路詐騙的傷害所以今天就要在這邊跟院長一起來討論"},{"start":84.842,"end":100.045,"text":"來自市政府界那也長期只在關心兒少那在我們整個來看的話未成年跟青少年詐騙事實上是不太一樣的那在受害的案件當中12到17事實上是受害類型以詐欺最多"},{"start":100.565,"end":128.64,"text":"的確在加害這一塊有犯罪這一塊也是涉入的詐欺案件當中有3124人10年當中涉嫌詐騙的少年已經事實上是暴增到4倍從民間的調查也顯示將近有4成的少年曾經遭遇過網路詐騙的陷阱也就是他變成是被害剛剛前面講的是加害"},{"start":129.127,"end":155.709,"text":"那其中有兩成真的事實上是金錢的一些損失甚至個資外洩那有三成呢是選擇隱忍不報那院長麻煩可不可以邀那個衛福部的部長麻煩衛福部準備選院長我今天要特別強調的是少年的詐騙議題不只是治安問題事實上是一個社福議題"},{"start":156.553,"end":179.84,"text":"所以在今天來院會要針對這個質詢之前我先問第一線的社工從他那邊收集到一些相關資料為什麼青少年他們會走偏除了家庭的教養因素以外很大的問題事實上是還是在經濟壓力這一塊那這些少年不只是要養活自己他還要養活的可能是他的弟弟妹妹之類的"},{"start":181.533,"end":205.69,"text":"在學歷低沒有專業技術的狀況下詐騙工作往往會成為他們一個最快能夠賺到錢的選擇所以簡報上的文字各位可以看一下也就是說這是真實的他們的一個反應也就是家裡呢只剩下爸爸工作那要養他還養弟弟妹妹還有一些支出甚至阿公阿嬤都要靠這個爸爸的收入養"},{"start":206.209,"end":233.858,"text":"甚至他才15歲他根本沒辦法找到工作可是他負擔家裡經濟的時候怎麼辦呢就會是讓這些孩子呢落入到風險裡邊那在左邊來看的話我們的脆弱家庭的個案管理平台目前有8.9萬的少年事實上是脆弱家庭的那其中呢12到18歲佔了四分之一那就意味著有可能他們會暴露在詐騙的引誘風險當中所以想問部長這邊"},{"start":236.167,"end":258.923,"text":"在目前涉及到詐欺犯罪的少年當中有多少人是同時具有社會福利身份的我想那個比例我們再查一下至於所以部長我是不是可以建議就是說相關部會是不是應該要把這個數據跨部會串聯如果"},{"start":260.014,"end":285.955,"text":"有詐騙的一個加害者甚至受害者那他的身份事實上是社會服務是比較能掌握所以我覺得未來事實上這個數據要串聯那針對這些少年個案後續的追蹤跟再犯比例是多少有掌握嗎我相信如果沒有比對的話事實上是很難掌握甚至有沒有針對這些個案做分析研擬相關的措施來避免他們再度落入到風險裡面"},{"start":286.796,"end":315.767,"text":"我覺得衛福部可能要針對這一塊能夠著一些力院長少年接觸到詐騙集團不論是受害還是被利用成共犯他們的路徑都跟成人不一樣他們事實上是一步一步的因為接觸到網路所以是透過朋友的TRADE跟IG跟私訊甚至是限動這些一個一個拉到聊天群組裡邊最後被捲入違法銷售跟詐騙的一個"},{"start":316.647,"end":341.379,"text":"整個的供應鏈裡邊這兩張圖事上是社工提供給我的少年的一個社群的訊息內容大把鈔票 黑盤讀品在柬埔寨你可以過奢侈的生活 奢華的生活我相信這些訊息很難被定義廣告而受到限制所以院長可以麻煩我們的韓院長可以麻煩我要邀請我們的訴發部麻煩請訴發部備詢"},{"start":346.277,"end":374.283,"text":"我相信警政單位非常清楚少年進入到詐騙產業鏈的管道跟方法所以蘇發部的黃部長這邊想問因為一線型的網際網路內容管理基本規範那天去考察的時候也有問過你其中的虛實應對原則網路世界真的能有效管理這個訊息嗎部長看一下我們剛剛左邊的這張圖裡面它這個叫做類廣告"},{"start":376.038,"end":386.617,"text":"它是在IG耶那這算是可是你們對應的法規是要有拖播廣告拖播廣告就是要有人拖播可是這上面的圖是來自IG"},{"start":387.182,"end":411.011,"text":"那就不會變成是你們可以去阻擔所以我不知道我們的速發部怎麼去應對報告委員的確目前我們是對廣告就是說這個是廣告平台對廣告的那個刊登者或者是拖播者去做比如說實名制是可是這要怎麼做處理呢因為他根本就是我們就只能講他類廣告他不需要拖播他自己就放在IG裡面"},{"start":411.531,"end":430.584,"text":"放在限動裡面就可以讓青少年一步一步的落入到陷阱裡面了目前並不在我們關心但這個原因也是因為他這個如果是個人的這個所謂的帳號他的接觸就是他的群組的人所以部長這邊是不是應該也要去考慮我們在考慮但是這個確實那謝謝黃部長再麻煩接下來我們的內政部 部長麻煩請內政部備詢"},{"start":438.471,"end":457.513,"text":"在實體世界裡面這次我問了全台的雙北彰化嘉義花蓮縣市的社工他們都反映不只是宮廟事實上幫派組織也在吸收少年提供照顧歸屬感和跟經濟來源所以想問內政部全台社工都知道這些青少年在哪裡"},{"start":458.581,"end":479.233,"text":"那對於我覺得要組織黑幫跟詐騙集團來吸收少年為下線人頭的時候有哪些積極的策略部長這邊是非常謝謝林委員關心尤其是來自脆弱家庭的部分那其實我們警政署呢在查查這些有關於青少年犯罪尤其是牽涉到詐騙的時候呢大概"},{"start":479.833,"end":494.35,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概百分之六十呢是淪為車手跟車手頭那百分之二十左右呢是自願性的人頭賬戶也就是剛剛林委員所說的因為他可能缺錢或者是因為他對金錢的觀念比較沒有那麼的成熟"},{"start":495.071,"end":515.918,"text":"那現在就是要如何來防止這個部分我們也提出來可能要跨部會譬如說請勞動部要能夠做青少年的就業跟職業的管道那抒發部也要下架這種違法打工的訊息還有請法務部要加強公布高額的賠償案例還有教育部也要透過教育系統來告知家長"},{"start":516.818,"end":533.456,"text":"那最近因為開學在即內政部跟教育部其實共同寫了一封信給家長請他們留意一下就是他們的學生或是孩子要注意一下詐騙上的訊息我們把那個相關的案例寫在信件裡面後面再麻煩部長再把這些相關策略再提供給我們"},{"start":535.442,"end":555.001,"text":"院長第一線社工跟我講說我們雖然賺不過非法的那個就是非法詐騙可是每一個青少年並不想鋌而走險去做這些事情可是對生活有壓力的是不是我們可以給他一個更好選擇在這邊真的還是要感謝這一個多月來我們的勞動部長跟衛福部部長"},{"start":556.089,"end":573.625,"text":"跟我們全台的少年服務團體一起已經在做討論了我覺得要給他們正常工作而不是落入到詐騙所以最後我們大概有幾個共識也就是少年就業政策不能夠用大人的角度來思考應該要知道他們跟成人不同那第二個弱勢的孩子要有專門的方案不是用"},{"start":574.105,"end":599.37,"text":"成人的方案和KPI硬塞在他們身上不過真正要做這些事情要跨部會所以院長你的角色就非常的重要因為現在已經事實上是衛福部跟勞動部已經要開始要去啟動可是事實上還是有法務部還是有教育部因為今天青少年還是在就學的階段可是處罰的少年他們要工作所以院長這邊是不是"},{"start":600.03,"end":611.304,"text":"可以承諾說可不可以在行政院的層級由我們的院長再主動再長期列管這個弱勢境遇未成年少年的就業的一些議題能夠讓部會能夠動起來"},{"start":615.814,"end":635.119,"text":"單就就業的部分我想勞動部一定會做比較多的研究那我們在行政院裡面的這個社會福利的會議當中我們可以把它納出一個議題怎麼來協助這些因為有社福身份的這些青少年們可是如果中離生的話很多事實上是會是在衛福部"},{"start":635.439,"end":657.715,"text":"可是在校生的話會是在教育部可是犯法的少年事實上是在法務部那就拜託我們的院長我們都會把他集齊一起來討論共同的問題謝謝院長也很感謝因為我覺得真的要大家一起來院長我自己事實上是來自社福界的背景可是不是只有少年事實上我們社福團體也常常是變成是詐騙"},{"start":660.037,"end":688.653,"text":"集團的一個對象所以為什麼只要打開社福網站社福團體的網站都會提到說你要提醒捐款小心詐騙這些字眼為什麼因為社福團體被詐騙集團利用到怕了公益竟然變成了一個詐騙的包裝所以詐騙集團就假借要申請補助生活津貼文化資源的一些名義然後在LINE群組跟社群平台大量播放假訊息"},{"start":689.313,"end":712.627,"text":"所以又使民眾交出個資然後辦理貸款甚至被盜刷這些狀況不只是傷害到民眾也對我們公益團體事實上是有一個重創甚至捐款人就不再捐款所以想問一下衛福部這邊有沒有面對詐騙集團利用公益跟攝服民意行騙的時候政府在防範攔截跟追查的策略上有沒有可以讓他們協助他們來做自保的動作"},{"start":713.032,"end":735.44,"text":"好 報告委員內政部其實已經因為存在於社會各種詐騙的手法所以我們提出了新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領其中對於社府遭詐騙方面是先凍結賬戶這個由金管會再處理為了避免非營利社府團體被利用"},{"start":736.78,"end":753.37,"text":"被詐騙利用的確需要有相關的管理跟風險資安的風險控管來加強先導這個部分有兩個法一個是內政部的一個社團法人方面內政部來管財團法人社府團體這個由社家屬"},{"start":754.23,"end":772.291,"text":"我想部長是不是可以告訴我們的社福團體來做一些提醒因為今年來社福團體真的深受困擾都來我這邊做求助所以有時候會讓社福團體事實上感受到很大壓力因為為什麼"},{"start":772.911,"end":799.211,"text":"有時候會影響到他們賬戶就直接被凍結所以他們就發不出薪水來給社工甚至就沒有辦法繼續他們要做的一些服務那就想問我們的劉世芳部長這邊就請問一下政府要如何去防範公益團體賬戶被我們的詐騙集團利用又如何要避免凍結賬戶的時候真正的公益資金不要讓它能夠凍結之後它沒辦法去運作"},{"start":800.785,"end":829.102,"text":"這個比較不容易第一個就是我們要確定說他這個帳戶是不是已經被詐騙集團拿去變成詐騙別人的一個帳戶那如果沒有經過後面的檢警調查查的話要解凍確實會比較困難一點但是我們還會再提醒就是說這些帳戶的擁有人也就是公益團體他是不是有看到這樣子的一個很莫名其妙的連結的時候趕快打165專線會告訴你說這是一個不法的連結不要一下子就"},{"start":829.722,"end":853.202,"text":"弄進去裡面然後被盜取我們社福團體的個資部長可不可以去研擬一下事實上之前我們有透過內政部的警政署真的有成功幫社福團體處理過這樣子我覺得是不是可以讓更多人受惠我也很感謝你們我們來辦說明會讓他們知道然後呢沒有辦法否則就會讓很多服務對象是沒辦法受到"},{"start":853.502,"end":876.441,"text":"是因為跟委員報告其實我們也會擔心說他透過這樣單一的一個公益團體的帳戶有時候會有其他的連帶的帳戶也會被圈存就是怕他可能是潛在的被詐騙戶所以這是警政署比較多超前部署的狀態但是也會有很多人覺得說這樣不太好不太方便"},{"start":876.941,"end":900.451,"text":"那但是我們雖然主詐了可是他們使用的人覺得說我又沒被詐騙你幹嘛把我的帳戶凍結所以我們來說明一下我想跟委員一起來努力因為很多社福團體他常年是非常正派在經營也在照顧大眾的是不是我們有可能建立一套社福團體的白名單讓他能夠安全的去運作同時未來我們在審查的過程當中要嚴謹的來審查各方來的訊息"},{"start":903.172,"end":925.277,"text":"再者萬一有誤觸到這個警視的帳戶的時候應該有一套機制讓他能夠尋正常機制迅速的能夠來解除這樣會不會造成比較少的問題因為我覺得您帶領的團隊的確在我們社福界真的給我們很多協助雖然我們提到少年就業馬上就有啟動所以今天最後還是希望行政院可不可以納入社福的視角在研擬"},{"start":952.868,"end":953.309,"text":"好 謝謝林月琪"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（16時18分）主席，麻煩請我們的院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：院長午安。事實上科技產品跟網路改變了我們的生活，的確，現在詐騙已經是全球各國都面對到的問題，臺灣沒有更嚴重，事實上也跟國際一樣，像日、韓的人數跟金額也都跟我們差不多。可是我很肯定的是，行政團隊一步一步地、很紮實地在推進，把打詐這樣的政策提升到2.0版，從根本的政策去著手，我今天從報告也看到有非常多的績效在。當然我在這邊也要提醒一點，是什麼呢？也就是聯合國在整理各國詐騙經驗的時候，它特別強調我們要關注的是社會中特別弱勢的族群，像在聯合國的線上兒童跟青少年安全的計畫裡面就特別提到，要保護弱勢的青少年免於網路詐騙的傷害，所以今天就要在這邊跟院長一起來討論，因為我自己來自社福界，也長期一直在關心兒少。","我們整個來看的話，未成年人與青少年的詐騙事實上是不太一樣的，在受害的案件當中，12歲到17歲事實上受害類型以詐欺最多，的確在加害這一塊、犯罪這一塊也是，涉入詐欺案件當中的有3,124人，10年當中涉嫌詐騙的少年事實上已經暴增到4倍。民間的調查也顯示，將近有四成的少年曾經遭遇過網路詐騙陷阱，也就是他變成是被害，剛剛前面講的是加害，其中有二成真的蒙受金錢損失，甚至個資外洩，有三成是選擇隱忍不報。","院長，麻煩，可不可以邀衛福部部長？"],["主席：麻煩衛福部備詢。"],["林委員月琴：院長，我今天要特別強調的是少年詐騙的議題不只是治安問題，事實上是一個社福議題，所以在今天要來院會針對這個質詢之前，我先問第一線的社工，從他那邊蒐集到一些相關資料，為什麼青少年會走偏？除了家庭的教養因素以外，很大的問題還是在經濟壓力這一塊，這些少年不只是要養活自己，他還要養活的可能是他的弟弟妹妹之類的，在學歷低、沒有專業技術的狀況下，詐騙工作往往會成為他們最快能夠賺到錢的一個選擇。","簡報上的文字，各位可以看一下，這是他們的真實反映，有的家裡只剩下爸爸在工作，要養他，還要養弟弟妹妹，還有一些支出，甚至阿公阿嬤都要靠這個爸爸的收入養；甚至有的才15歲，他根本沒辦法找到工作，可是他要負擔家裡的經濟，這個時候怎麼辦呢？就會讓這些孩子落入到風險裡面。","就左邊來看的話，我們的脆弱家庭個案管理平臺目前有8.9萬個少年事實上是脆弱家庭，其中12歲到18歲占了四分之一，那就意味著有可能他們會暴露在詐騙的引誘風險當中。所以想問部長，在目前涉及到詐欺犯罪的少年當中，有多少人是同時具有社會福利身分的？"],["邱部長泰源：那個比例我們再查一下，至於……"],["林委員月琴：部長，我是不是可以建議，相關部會是不是應該要把這個數據跨部會串聯？如果有詐騙的加害者，甚至受害者，他的身分事實上是衛福部比較能掌握，所以我覺得未來這些數據要串聯。針對這些少年個案後續的追蹤及再犯比例是多少有掌握嗎？我相信如果沒有比對的話，事實上是很難掌握，甚至有沒有針對這些個案做分析，研擬相關措施，來避免他們再度落入到風險裡面？我覺得衛福部可能要針對這一塊著一些力。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員月琴：院長，少年接觸到詐騙集團，不論是受害還是被利用成共犯，他們的路徑都跟成人不一樣，他們事實上是一步一步的，因為接觸到網路，透過朋友的Threads、IG及私訊，甚至是限動這些，一個一個拉到聊天群組裡面，最後被捲入違法銷售與詐騙的整個供應鏈裡面。","這兩張圖事實上是社工提供給我的一個少年的社群訊息內容，大把鈔票、K盤毒品，在柬埔寨，你可以過奢侈的生活、奢華的生活，我相信這些訊息很難被定義為廣告而受到限制。","韓院長，麻煩，我要邀請數發部。"],["主席：麻煩請數發部備詢。"],["林委員月琴：我相信警政單位非常清楚少年進入到詐騙產業鏈的管道及方法，所以我想問數發部的黃部長，依現行的網際網路內容管理基本規範，那天去考察的時候我也有問過你，其中的虛實對應原則，網路世界真的能有效管理這個訊息嗎？部長看一下左邊這張圖裡面，這個叫做類廣告，它是在IG，可是你們法規對應的是要有託播廣告，託播廣告就是要有人託播，可是這上面的圖是來自IG，那就變成不會是你們可以去阻斷的，所以不知道數發部怎麼去應對？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，的確目前我們是廣告平臺對廣告的刊登者或者是託播者去做實名制。"],["林委員月琴：是，可是這要怎麼做處理呢？因為我們只能講它是類廣告，他不需要託播，他自己就放在IG裡面、放在限動裡面，就可以讓青少年一步一步的落入到陷阱裡了。"],["黃部長彥男：這目前並不在我們管理當中，當然這個原因也是因為，如果是個人的帳號，他接觸的就是他群組的人，並不屬於公眾。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長這邊是不是應該也要去考慮？"],["黃部長彥男：我們在考慮，但是這個確實……"],["林委員月琴：謝謝黃部長。接下來麻煩內政部部長。"],["主席：請內政部備詢。"],["林委員月琴：在實體世界裡面，這次我問了全臺包含雙北、彰化、嘉義、花蓮縣市的社工，他們都反映不只是宮廟，幫派組織也在吸收少年，提供照顧、歸屬感跟經濟來源。所以想問內政部，全臺社工都知道這些青少年在哪裡，對於黑幫組織跟詐騙集團要吸收少年作為下線人頭的時候，請問部長有哪些積極的策略？"],["劉部長世芳：是，非常謝謝林委員關心，尤其是來自脆弱家庭的部分，其實我們警政署在查察這些有關於青少年犯罪，尤其是牽涉到詐騙的時候，跟委員報告一下，大概百分之六十是淪為車手跟車手頭，百分之二十左右是自願性的人頭帳戶，也就是剛剛林委員所說的，他可能因為缺錢或者是因為他對金錢的觀念比較沒有那麼成熟。現在針對如何來防止這個部分，我們也提出來可能要跨部會，譬如說，請勞動部要能夠提供青少年的就業跟職業的管道，數發部也要下架這種違法打工的訊息，還有請法務部要加強公布高額的賠償案例，還有教育部也要透過教育系統來告知家長。最近因為開學在即，內政部跟教育部其實共同寫了一封信給家長，請他們留意一下他們的學生或是孩子，要注意詐騙上的訊息，我們把相關的案例寫在信件裡面。"],["林委員月琴：麻煩部長再把這些相關策略提供給我們。","院長，第一線社工跟我講，我們雖然賺不過非法詐騙，可是每一個青少年並不是想鋌而走險去做這些事情，當他們生活有壓力的時候，是不是我們可以給他一個更好的選擇？在這邊真的還是要感謝，這一個多月來，我們的勞動部長跟衛福部部長跟我們全臺的少年服務團體已經一起在做討論了，我覺得要給他們正常工作，而不是落入到詐騙，所以最後我們大概有幾個共識，也就是少年就業政策不能夠用大人的角度來思考，應該要知道他們跟成人不同；第二個，弱勢的孩子要有專門的方案，不是用成人的方案和KPI硬塞在他們身上。不過真正要做這件事情要跨部會，所以院長你的角色就非常重要，現在衛福部跟勞動部已經開始要去啟動，可是還有法務部、還有教育部，因為青少年還是在就學的階段，而觸法的少年他們要工作，所以院長是不是可以承諾，可不可以在行政院的層級，由院長主動長期列管弱勢境遇未成年少年就業的一些議題，能夠讓部會動起來？"],["卓院長榮泰：單就就業的部分，我想勞動部一定會做比較多的研究，我們在行政院裡面社會福利的會議當中可以把它納入一個議題，怎麼來協助這些有社福身分的青少年們。"],["林委員月琴：如果是中離生的話，很多會是在衛福部，在校生的話會是在教育部，可是犯法的少年是在法務部，那這部分就拜託我們的院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都會集中一起來討論這些共同的問題。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝院長，非常感謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的建議。"],["林委員月琴：因為我覺得真的要大家一起來。院長，我自己是來自社福界的背景，可是不是只有少年，事實上我們社福團體也常常變成詐騙集團的對象，這就是為什麼只要打開社福團體的網站都會提醒「捐款小心詐騙」這些字眼，因為社福團體被詐騙集團利用到怕了，公益竟然變成了詐騙的包裝，詐騙集團就假借要申請補助、生活津貼或文件辦理的一些名義，然後在LINE群組、各社群平臺大量播放假訊息，誘使民眾交出個資，然後辦理貸款，甚至被盜刷。這些狀況不只是傷害到民眾，也對我們公益團體造成重創，甚至導致捐款人不再捐款。所以想請問衛福部，當面對詐騙集團利用公益和社福名義行騙的時候，政府在防範、攔截跟追查的策略上，有沒有可以協助他們來自保？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為社會存在各種詐騙的手法，所以我們提出了新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領，其中對於社福遭詐騙方面，我們是先凍結帳戶，這個是由金管會在處理。為了避免非營利社福團體被詐騙利用，的確需要有相關的管理跟資安的風險控管來加強宣導，這個部分有兩個法，社團法人方面是由內政部來管，財團法人社福團體方面則由社家署來管，這個都有相關的辦法來管理。"],["林委員月琴：對，部長是不是可以對社福團體做一些提醒？"],["邱部長泰源：會，我們加強宣導。"],["林委員月琴：今天不好意思，我的時間也有限。因為今年社福團體真的是深受困擾，都來我這邊求助，事實上有時候這會讓社福團體感受到很大的壓力，為什麼？因為有時候會影響到他們的帳戶就直接被凍結，導致他們發不出薪水給社工，甚至沒有辦法繼續他們要做的一些服務。所以想請問劉世芳部長，政府要如何去防範公益團體的帳戶被詐騙集團利用？又如何避免凍結帳戶的時候，不要讓真正的公益團體沒辦法去運作資金？"],["劉部長世芳：這個比較不容易，第一個，我們要確定這個帳戶是不是已經被詐騙集團拿去變成詐騙別人的帳戶，如果沒有經過後面的檢警調查的話，要解凍確實會比較困難一點。但是我們還是會再提醒這些帳戶的擁有人，也就是公益團體，當他看到一些很莫名其妙的連結的時候，要趕快打165專線，他會告訴你說，這是一個不法的連結，不要一下子就進去裡面，導致社福團體的個資被盜取。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長可不可以去研擬一下？事實上之前我們有透過內政部警政署，真的有成功幫社福團體處理過這樣的狀況，我覺得是不是可以讓更多人受惠？我也很感謝你們……"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們來辦說明會，讓他們知道要怎麼處理。"],["林委員月琴：對，讓他們知道，否則就會讓很多服務對象是沒辦法受到服務的。"],["劉部長世芳：是，跟委員報告，其實我們也會擔心他透過這樣單一的公益團體的帳戶，有時候會有其他連帶的帳戶也會被圈存，就是怕他可能是潛在的被詐騙戶，這是警政署比較多超前部署的狀態，但是也會有很多人覺得這樣不太好、不太方便，我們雖然阻詐了，可是使用的人會覺得，我又沒被詐騙，你幹嘛把我的帳戶凍結？所以我們來說明一下。"],["林委員月琴：所以我還是要感謝部長在去年度給我們的協助……"],["卓院長榮泰：我想我們跟委員一起來努力啦！因為很多社福團體是長年非常正派在經營，也在照顧大眾，是不是有可能我們建立一套社福團體的白名單，讓他能夠安全地去運作？同時，未來我們在審查的過程當中，要嚴謹地來審查各方來的訊息。再者，萬一有誤觸到警示帳戶的時候，應該有一套機制，讓他能夠循正常機制來迅速解除，這樣會不會造成比較少的問題？"],["林委員月琴：謝謝院長，因為我覺得你帶領的團隊的確給我們社福界很多協助，像我們提到少年就業，馬上就有啟動。所以今天最後還是希望行政院可以納入社福的視角，在研擬政策的時候，一樣要去考慮到設一些弱勢群體的風險跟需求，因為社工最知道這些少年們所面對的問題，可能要請你這邊能夠多著力，還有我剛剛提的，就是在你的院的會議裡面，能夠針對青少年的就業多著力，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會要求各機關都要善加透過社工來了解真正的環境跟對象，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員質詢，謝謝卓院長和相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請黃健豪委員質詢，陳亭妃委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書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我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":14.332,"end":32.088,"text":"林委員好院長好 辛苦了今天早上也聽到院長在講就是說你也認為說國人也不一定會滿意打詐的進度派給政府多一點時間這是左院長早上的反應其實我在民間也有聽到"},{"start":33.169,"end":56.193,"text":"大家對於說這個打詐雖然政府有在努力在做但是還是有一些疑慮就民間的一些反應我來跟部長請教一下第一個 為什麼打詐會越來越多呢第二個 被騙的人為什麼都被判那麼輕呢第三個 被詐騙的錢能不能追回來大概這三項能不能請院長先簡短的答覆一下"},{"start":57.244,"end":85.518,"text":"因為對詐騙集團來講第一個他有利可圖他後面一定是一個幫派一個組織所以是大規模的在從事另外手法不斷的翻新再來就跟境外的合作經常把他的基地台等等可是我們有打詐釋法了耶為什麼會對境外的部分我們還要跨境的合作雖然有一些合作但是我想速度跟這個數目上遠遠不及這個才是越來"},{"start":86.238,"end":102.508,"text":"打詐的這個集團越來越猖狂的一個原因那怎麼辦我們法令也給行政院也送來立法院也通過了所以我們說的我們希望從市詐開始讓人民知道說什麼是有陷阱的什麼是你不應該加入的用這個方式來阻絕源頭"},{"start":103.989,"end":117.506,"text":"再來就是把從市帳 房帳 主帳 整帳各方面一路的下來如果只是用抓的 抓不是抓的抓當然是最後端了啦我先請教一下這一個院長"},{"start":118.867,"end":143.257,"text":"第一個就是有關165 165很辛苦早上也有同仁有問過就是說165現在有50名的工作人員然後平均每一天要接到1200通到1500通的電話請教一下院長在它法制化之前能不能優化補它的人力讓最前線的我們同仁不用這麼的辛苦"},{"start":144.396,"end":167.847,"text":"謝謝李委員關心第一線工作人員確實值得需要鼓勵我多次去到165中心看他們在接電話第一個要非常有耐心第一個要非常極致的反映出對方來的詢問問題能夠給他解答第三個要能夠告訴他後續應該有些什麼救濟的行為對一個專業訓練來看是非常非常現在是50門50個嗎47"},{"start":171.128,"end":187.114,"text":"47人力夠不夠我想以這個現在的量來講的他們都很辛苦還是會按照從哪邊調過來的寶一調過來的還希望他增加外語的人力短時間之人力能不能增加"},{"start":188.996,"end":213.625,"text":"人力當然是可以增加但是我想李委員可能會希望我們能夠在科技上面譬如說我們要導入AI的系統或者導入這個圈存電子化或者是系統性的上限而不是像以前好像街市化一通一通填寫這樣子這樣可以減輕第一線同仁的負擔等於優化對 優化這個優化在科技面上面我們已經開始補充人力跟優化這個能不能做到"},{"start":214.485,"end":238.47,"text":"當然沒有問題 但是還有一個就是讓它法制化那有沒有一個期程 短期間我們先補充人力先優化然後長時間法制化同時我們從7月開始的時候也會提供這個獎金按照他們的這個程度提供2000到1萬元預計短期要補到多少人你們認為現在他們輪調是沒有太大問題但是今天太辛苦了"},{"start":239.09,"end":253.843,"text":"我願意再來提醒說因為每一次接電話都耗盡很多的心神而且心理的壓力也會很大所以今天早上委員在提醒的時候就是說要給他們做一些心理諮商的協助跟支持這一點我們已經馬上交辦了沒有問題"},{"start":254.883,"end":280.079,"text":"我也認為院長這邊能力我覺得短時間在增加這47名可以說是精英他們這樣子每天24小時也不斷電在服務我認為說第一個當然就是身心雙方我們要稍微注意一下第二個就是說能夠增加能力就增加能力讓他們不至於這麼的疲憊好不好謝謝委員關心我請內政部就短期的這個委員所講的短期的部分你一定一個計畫我們來進行核定"},{"start":282.02,"end":300.353,"text":"那再請教一下這個院長高齡詐騙的問題因為我們現在進入高齡化了那部長可以先請問進入這個高齡化了那大家也知道說現在高齡化的長者他們可能現在有錢也有錢但是這也容易成為詐騙集團他所覬覦的對象"},{"start":301.494,"end":319.67,"text":"其實在日本他們其實有在去年有公告一個保護國民免受詐騙的綜合對策他其實有針對這個是高齡化的比如說推動跟金融機構合作針對長期未使用ATM轉帳功能的高齡客戶然後就是限制他的金額或是說銀髮族家用電話安裝防騷擾的裝備或是說我們能不能"},{"start":328.277,"end":351.552,"text":"讓長者在領錢的時候稍微增加他的不方便性因為我知道說在這個比如說在保單這方面就是說他們有設計就是說那你如果是長者要來解約這個保單然後他們就問說那為什麼要解約甚至有多一個人就是說你必須要家裡的其他的人知道這件事情而且同意"},{"start":352.612,"end":376.225,"text":"這個長者才能去把這個保單做這個解約的這個過程那我就想說我們對於高齡的長者這部分能不能多一些關懷然後多一些在這個法令上面給予他們協助因為其實在今年4月的時候我就跟林志傑教授一起來談到說有關於高齡財務風險管理不足的這部分那這部分這個彭主委你要先回應一下嗎"},{"start":377.918,"end":402.55,"text":"跟委員說明一下有關高齡跟他講說我們對於保單有解約金的這些註記的部分因為牽涉到法律我們已經請幾家公司他們已經開始跟客戶在做這個示範了在做這個我想就是高齡者他要解約必須要其他家人通知就是你要如果是要解除這個的話要通知這個就跟我們那個比如說我們的那個土地啊房屋要過戶那個是一樣的"},{"start":403.41,"end":425.038,"text":"那另外剛才講說對於ATM異常的部分我們已經納入全面的管控就是假設這個很久沒有領那我說有沒有特別針對長者因為我是在講說高齡化這部分高齡的風險其實我們對高齡化的這一部分一些的保護我們就是我們不是歧視但是我們需要多一些關心跟照顧這個就是我們現在正在做的"},{"start":428.679,"end":448.072,"text":"這樣有在做嗎 有你的方案是什麼 我怎麼不知道就剛才講 因為早上也有人問有關ATM管控的部分細節我不方便在這邊說但是我們已經針對各種異常的現象做一個全盤式的我覺得像日本那種我剛提到這個你們可以做一些參考就是說讓高齡者"},{"start":449.022,"end":467.173,"text":"他們要在做這個不管是提款或是說解約這方面的話多增加一些他的家人能夠關心他這也是我們現在在鼓勵他們往這個方向來走那我再請教一下院長早上結果這個同仁有問到"},{"start":468.667,"end":497.244,"text":"有一個是自稱是詐騙集團的車手然後他假釋之後他高調分享他的詐騙還說自己的判決書可以當履歷表早上有播這個影片我聽政部長也說好像要去抓還是劉部長這個其實網路上都找得到他的編號 他的名字他司法判決書都找得到我不曉得說現在掌握的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":498.574,"end":509.085,"text":"報告委員我來補充一下好嗎這位姓廖現在已經被移送到雲林地檢署現在今天嗎13號然後他在8月9號的時候已經有將這個影片下架"},{"start":515.792,"end":530.366,"text":"所以現在在民眾流傳的部分應該不是是其他的部分這個在流傳的部分就之前拍的就對了他現在你說他現在已經對 那這位廖姓詐欺嫌犯的我是覺得囂張因為他總共被移送28次"},{"start":532.177,"end":558.95,"text":"這個就是問題為什麼可以移送到28次然後他繼續出來就是我要凸顯一下這幾個問題第一個對年輕人來講他覺得詐騙不是丟臉的事情他可以甚至拿來炫耀第二個就剛才我提到的判得很輕因為他投資報酬率很高所以我們要修法我們防詐條例要修法包括禁車條款可能要放到裡面會比較好第三個就是說詐騙的金額高但是和解的金額很低"},{"start":560.063,"end":585.652,"text":"合解性很低啊然後輕易就能夠假釋啊那就是法令上不足的問題啊對 所以我們詐欺犯罪危害條例一定要修那現在其實在貴院的內政委員會其實也是在修法的這個研議當中那還包含這個法務部啊早上我也聽到這一個同仁有在提到啊現在就是說這一個你只要願意去跟受害者和解"},{"start":586.701,"end":604.995,"text":"那和解的金額不是你詐騙的金額是你我自己拿到了這個金額那結果就用這個金額去做和解了也都行得通我們這部分是不是我們盡快來做這個修法那不然這樣子的話那對於這些詐騙集團來講代價太低了所以受害者來講請恨以堪"},{"start":606.021,"end":624.483,"text":"我了解的部分是法務部已經跟司法院他們在研議當中看怎麼樣從法治上面來解決這方面的問題法務部已經提出修正草案 限定送行政院在審查中了那要徹底解決這個問題因為我們覺得這個是很不合理"},{"start":625.897,"end":649.648,"text":"這個非常的不合理因為當初立法的時候本來就是採全部的損害而說但是後來實際運作司法院的法院的作業他是採個人報酬說後來他是有不同有少數的採全部的損害說這個就是我相信很多立委也都有提案那現在就是我們等院版等院版看何時送來立法院院版就代表這個行政院的一個態度"},{"start":652.308,"end":679.386,"text":"他這部分在審查現在也在開審查會議請司法院來表示意見我想進訴的時候完畢就送立法院來審議我覺得這個太誇張了光從早上大家在談的這個例子就凸顯了好幾個問題就大家覺得說你詐騙那幹部長你提到說他被抓了26次那26次就出來那為什麼大家會覺得說我回到我之前所講的為什麼現在都判得那麼輕"},{"start":682.858,"end":697.937,"text":"我們檢察官起訴的時候起訴的第一個起訴可能量刑就不重那第二個到法官那邊判決也不重判決法官跟委員報告那這部分的確是有量刑的的確是都大部分集中在一年到兩年之間那是外界判決最低的啊"},{"start":699.034,"end":714.748,"text":"現在我們有一個具體球型50條 炸白條50條具體球型我們在高檢測有一個球型的標準給檢考做一個參考我想他們可以來因為現在剛開始在做而已我想大概一定時間效果會出來"},{"start":715.484,"end":733.709,"text":"跟委員報告因為很多類似這樣的一個法律的修法法都必須跟司法院進行討論那我們也發現到當中無論是行度或者是速度以及他這個修法的過程的程序都有問題所以我已經拉高到由雙方的秘書長來進行交涉希望能夠把這個時程"},{"start":735.789,"end":753.656,"text":"趕快一點現在就是大概去年是這個時候這個打炸專法通過了現在一年那其實就是說包含兩位部長院長都有提到說我們相關的法令這一年之後的確有許多要去做修改的譬如說第一個加重我們的犯罪的刑罰第二個呢"},{"start":754.557,"end":768.558,"text":"強化犯罪的被害的補償第三個呢 研議犯罪禁車的管制我覺得說這個一年這樣子下來之後大家發現說有這一些不足的地方我們也希望說行政院趕快來補這個漏洞好不好"},{"start":769.295,"end":792.052,"text":"好的 我們會請司法院一起配合我們會盡快來處理好 那這個你剛才提到這個市詐的部分我跟院長提供一個數字就是說現在在青少年的部分就是在19歲以下我們這個市詐欺的嫌疑犯人數每年都增加從111 112到113每年都增加然後這個車手"},{"start":797.67,"end":826.54,"text":"擔任這個車手是在12歲到17歲這個佔車手的比例高達六成就是說年輕人現在就是被抓起來當作車手裡面的大概有六成是屬於青少年的這是一個非常嚴重的問題這部分怎麼去做處理院長少年事件的處理我們跟司法院也在進行溝通當中還有教育部我覺得教育部也要來做處理就是說"},{"start":827.369,"end":855.321,"text":"第一個大家覺得說車手第一個就是量刑青現在很多詐騙集團也是找年輕人去當車手然後量刑青很容易就被假釋所以都是當年輕人用車手所以財委部長你講提到說被抓了二十幾次然後就出來這麼高調的拍影片這是一個問題我們在年輕人12歲到17歲裡面車手的嫌疑犯裡面竟然有六成"},{"start":856.092,"end":879.887,"text":"都是年輕人然後有關主詐的這部分來 主詐 張款的這一個流項面現在就是說我們對於警示金融帳戶剩餘款項的返還這方面的速度我們是不是可以再加快一點"},{"start":882.079,"end":897.05,"text":"各個案子他有不同的情節太陽所以他沒有辦法定出一個一定的標準我們現在平均大概是多少時間這個現在很難講一個平均的數字有的會幾日有的會比較長的時間"},{"start":902.215,"end":918.744,"text":"請金管會來研議這個警示金融帳戶剩餘款項的返還的進進作為我時間有限 最後再請教一下這個應該是跟信息有關的就是說有關於清查非國籍預付卡手機門號的情況"},{"start":923.887,"end":950.125,"text":"目前來看 這個是五零價到現在為止 這應該是多到幾年級為止大概清查 財清查兩百五萬 財清查一萬多這個我請院長要去確定一下是 因為他們是說今年八月應該是今年年底以後會去檢查一天百多萬我們請院長來講"},{"start":953.018,"end":953.42,"text":"好 謝謝李坤貞委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（15時35分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：院長好，辛苦了。今天早上有聽到院長在講，你也認為國人也不一定會滿意打詐的進度，盼給政府多一點時間，這是卓院長早上的反應。其實我在民間也有聽到，大家對於這個打詐，雖然政府有努力在做，但還是有一些疑慮，這是民間的一些反應，我來跟院長請教一下，第一個，為什麼打詐會越來越多呢？第二個，詐騙的人為什麼都被判那麼輕呢？第三個，被詐騙的錢能不能追回來？大概就這三項，能不能請院長先簡短的答復一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為對詐騙集團來講，第一個，它有利可圖，後面一定是一個幫派、一個組織，所以是大規模的在從事；另外，詐騙手法不斷的翻新；再來，是跟境外的合作，經常把他們的基地臺等等……"],["李委員坤城：可是我們有打詐新四法了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，但對境外……"],["李委員坤城：為什麼還是會被判這麼輕？"],["卓院長榮泰：對境外的部分，我們還要跨境的合作，雖然有一些合作，但是我想在速度跟數目上還遠遠不及，這才是詐騙集團越來越猖狂的一個原因。"],["李委員坤城：那怎麼辦呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是……"],["李委員坤城：行政院將法令送來立法院也通過啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望從識詐開始讓人民知道什麼是有陷阱的、什麼是你不應該加入的，用這個方式來阻絕源頭；再來，把從識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐及懲詐各方面一路下來，如果只是用抓的，抓不甚抓。"],["李委員坤城：「抓」當然是最後端了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員坤城：我先請教一下院長，第一個就是有關165專線，很辛苦！早上也有同仁問過，就是現在165專線有50名的工作人員，平均每一天要接1,200到1,500通的電話。請教一下院長，在法制化之前，能不能優化來補他們的人力，讓我們最前線的同仁不用這麼的辛苦？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝李委員關心……"],["李委員坤城：長期來講就是法制化嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝李委員關心第一線工作人員，確實值得鼓勵，我多次去到165中心，看他們在接電話，第一個，要非常有耐心；第二個，要非常急智的針對對方詢問的問題給予回應，能夠給他解答；第三個，要能夠告訴他後續有哪一些救濟的行為。對一個專業訓練來看，是非常、非常的……"],["李委員坤城：現在是50人嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是47人。"],["李委員坤城：47人，人力夠不夠？"],["劉部長世芳：我想以現在的量能來講，他們都很辛苦啦！還是會按照三班來輪調。"],["李委員坤城：他們是從哪邊調過來的？"],["劉部長世芳：保一。"],["李委員坤城：保一調過來的？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員坤城：那短期間……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們去的時候，還希望它增加外語的人力跟語言能力。"],["李委員坤城：這人力在短時間能不能增加？"],["劉部長世芳：人力當然是可以增加，但是我想李委員可能會希望我們能夠在科技上面，譬如我們要導入AI的系統、導入圈存電子化，或者是系統性的上線，而不是像以前好像接市話一通、一通填寫，這樣可以減輕第一線同仁的負擔。"],["李委員坤城：等於優化啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對，優化。在科技面的優化，我們已經開始實施了。"],["李委員坤城：在補充人力跟優化，這能不能做到？"],["劉部長世芳：當然沒有問題，但是還有一個就是讓它法制化。"],["李委員坤城：對，法制化，有沒有一個期程？在短期間你們先補充人力及優化，然後長時間法制化。"],["劉部長世芳：是，同時我們從7月開始也會提供這個獎金，按照他們的程度提供2,000元到1萬元的鼓勵方式。"],["李委員坤城：你們預計短期要補到多少人可以先cover這個部分？"],["劉部長世芳：現在他們輪調是沒有太大問題，但是今天……"],["李委員坤城：太辛苦了。"],["劉部長世芳：對，委員一再提醒，因為每一次接電話都耗盡很多的心神……"],["李委員坤城：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：而且心裡的壓力也會很大，所以今天早上委員在提醒的時候，就是要給他們做一些心理諮商的協助跟支持，這一點我們已經馬上交辦了，沒有問題。"],["李委員坤城：院長，我覺得這邊的人力在短時間內要再增加，這47名可以說是菁英啦！他們這樣子每天24小時不斷電在服務，我認為第一個當然就是身心狀況，我們要稍微注意一下；第二個就是能夠增加人力，讓他們不至於這麼疲憊啦！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員關心，我請內政部就委員所講的短期部分擬定一個計畫，我們來進行核定。"],["李委員坤城：好。再請教一下院長關於高齡詐騙的問題，因為我們現在進入高齡化了，大家也知道現在高齡化社會的長者，他們可能有錢也有閒，但也容易成為詐騙集團覬覦的對象。日本在去年有公告一個保護國民免受詐騙綜合對策，其中有針對高齡化的部分，比如推動跟金融機構合作，針對長期未使用ATM轉帳功能的高齡客戶，限制他的金額，或是銀髮族家用電話安裝防騷擾的裝備，或是我們能不能讓長者……這部分跟金管會有關，讓長者在領錢的時候稍微增加他的不方便性。比如在保單這方面，就是他們有設定如果是長者要來解約保單，會問為什麼要解約，甚至需要多一個人，就是必須要家裡其他的人知道這件事情而且同意，長者才能把保單做解約。我們對於高齡的長者，在這部分能不能多一些關懷？多一些在法令上面的協助？","在今年4月的時候，我跟林志潔教授就談到有關於高齡財務風險管理不足的部分，這部分彭主委要先回應一下嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，跟委員說明一下，有關剛才提到對於高齡者的保單有解約金註記的部分，因為牽涉到法律，我們已經請幾家公司開始跟客戶做試辦，我想……"],["李委員坤城：就是高齡者要解約必須要通知其他家人。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是如果要解除這個的話要通知，跟土地、房屋要過戶是一樣的。另外剛才提到對於ATM異常的部分，我們已經全面納入管控，假設他很久沒有領……"],["李委員坤城：對，那有沒有特別針對長者？因為我是在說高齡化這部分，高齡的風險。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們對高齡化這一部分的保護，就是……"],["李委員坤城：我們不是歧視，但是需要多一些關心跟照顧。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是、是、是，會、會、會，這個就是我們現在正在做的。"],["李委員坤城：現在有在做嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["李委員坤城：你的方案是什麼？我怎麼不知道？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是剛剛講的，因為早上也有委員問，就是有關ATM的管控部分，細節我不方便在這邊說，但是我們已經針對各種異常的現象做全盤的……"],["李委員坤城：像我剛才提到的日本，你們可以做參考啦！就是讓高齡者不管在提款或是解約這方面，多增加一些……讓他的家人能夠關心的這件事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這也是我們現在在鼓勵他們往這個方向來走。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。我再請教一下院長，早上就有同仁問到，有一個自稱是詐騙集團的車手，他假釋之後高調分享他的詐騙，還說自己的判決書可以當履歷表，早上有播這個影片，我聽鄭部長還是劉部長也說這個好像要去抓，其實網路上都找得到他的編號、他的名字啦！他的司法判決書都找得到，不曉得現在掌握的情況怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我來補充一下好嗎？"],["李委員坤城：好。"],["劉部長世芳：這一位姓廖，現在已經被移送到雲林地檢署。"],["李委員坤城：現在，今天嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：13日。他在8月9日已經將這個影片下架，所以現在民眾在流傳的應該不是這個，是其他在流傳的部分啦！"],["李委員坤城：就是之前拍的就對了啦！你說他現在已經在……"],["劉部長世芳：對，我是覺得這位廖姓詐欺嫌犯很囂張啦！因為他總共被移送28次。"],["李委員坤城：這個就是問題！為什麼可以移送到28次，然後他還繼續出來？我要凸顯一下這幾個問題，第一個，對年輕人來講，他覺得詐騙不是丟臉的事情，甚至可以拿來炫耀！第二個，就是剛才有提到判得很輕，因為投資報酬率很高啊！"],["劉部長世芳：所以防詐條例要修法，包括禁奢條款可能也要放到裡面會比較好。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！第三個就是詐騙的金額高，但是和解的金額很低，然後輕易就能夠假釋，這都是法令不足的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：對，所以我們詐欺犯罪危害防制條例一定要修，現在貴院的內政委員會其實也是在修法的研議當中。"],["李委員坤城：還包含法務部，早上我也聽到同仁提到，現在就是只要願意去跟受害者和解，那和解的金額不是詐騙金額，是我自己拿到的金額，結果就用這個金額去和解了，也都行得通耶！這部分是不是我們儘快來修法？不然這樣對於這些詐騙集團來講代價太低了，對受害者來講情何以堪啊？"],["劉部長世芳：我了解的是法務部已經跟司法院在研議當中，看怎麼樣從法制上來解決這方面的問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，法務部已經提出修正草案，現在已經送行政院在審查中了，要徹底解決這個問題，因為我們覺得這很不合理，因為當初立法的時候本來就是採全部損害額說，但是後來司法院的法院作業實際運作，是採個人報酬說，後來又有不同，有少數採全部損害說。"],["李委員坤城：這個我相信很多立委都有提案，現在就是等院版，看何時送來立法院，院版就代表行政院的態度。"],["劉部長世芳：還有司法院。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分現在也在開審查會議，也請了司法院來表示意見，我想儘速審查完畢，就送立法院來審議。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得這個太誇張了，光從早上大家在談的這個例子就凸顯了好幾個問題，剛剛部長也提到他被抓了26次，26次又出來，我回到我之前所講的，為什麼現在都判得那麼輕？我們檢察官起訴的時候，第一個，起訴可能量刑就不重，第二個，到法官那邊判得也不重。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我跟委員報告，這部分的量刑的確大部分是集中在一年到兩年之間，但是外界反應不好。"],["李委員坤城：那都最低的啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在我們有一個具體求刑，第五十條，詐防條例第五十條，具體求刑，我們在高檢署有一個求刑標準給檢方做參考，我想他們可以來……因為現在剛開始在做而已，到一定的時間我想效果會出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，因為很多類似這樣的法律修正，都必須跟司法院進行討論，我們也發現當中無論是刑度或速度及修法的程序都有問題，所以我已經拉高到由雙方的秘書長來進行交涉，希望能夠把這個時程縮短一點。"],["李委員坤城：大概去年也是這個時候打詐專法通過了，現在一年了，包含兩位部長、院長都有提到相關的法令在一年之後的確有許多要去做修改的，譬如第一、加重犯罪的刑罰，第二、強化犯罪的被害補償，第三、研議犯罪的禁奢管制，我覺得一年下來之後，大家發現有這一些不足的地方，我們也希望行政院趕快來補這個漏洞，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們會請司法院一起配合，儘快來處理。"],["李委員坤城：好。你剛才提到識詐的部分，我跟院長提供一個數字，現在在青少年的部分，就是在19歲以下涉詐欺的嫌疑犯人數每年都增加，從111、112到113年每一年都增加，然後12歲到17歲的嫌犯擔任車手的比率高達六成，就是說年輕人現在當車手的，其中大概有六成是屬於青少年，這是一個非常嚴重的問題，那這部分怎麼去處理？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：少年事件的處理，我們跟司法院也在進行溝通當中。"],["李委員坤城：那還有教育部，我覺得教育部也要來處理。第一個，大家覺得車手量刑輕，現在很多詐騙集團也是找年輕人去當車手，因為量刑輕，然後很容易就被假釋，所以都是找年輕人當車手，所以才會有部長講的被抓了二十幾次，然後就出來，這麼高調的拍影片，這是一個問題，在車手嫌疑犯裡面，竟然有六成都是12歲到17歲的年輕人。","有關阻詐部分，贓款流向方面，現在對於警示金融帳戶剩餘款項的返還，這方面我們的速度是不是可以再加快一點？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為各個案子有不同的情節態樣，所以沒有辦法訂出一定的標準。"],["李委員坤城：那我們現在平均呢？平均大概是多少時間？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在很難講一個平均的數字，有的是幾日，有的會是幾週。"],["李委員坤城：也是要請金管會……"],["卓院長榮泰：有的會是幾日就可以，有的大概會要比較長的時間。"],["李委員坤城：要請金管會研議警示金融帳戶剩餘款項返還的精進作為。","我時間有限，最後再請教，這個應該是跟NCC有關的，就是有關於清查非國籍預付卡手機門號的情況，到去年底為止有兩百二十幾萬，大概才清查了一萬多，我請院長要去追一下這個進度。"],["卓院長榮泰：所謂的黑莓卡以及其離境之後的管理，我們正在加強。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！因為他們是說，應該是今年年底會全部清查，這有兩百多萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["李委員坤城：請院長抓一下進度。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在會限制其門號取得的數量，個人的。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來楊瓊瓔委員質詢完畢之後，我們會休息10分鐘，休息完畢請林月琴委員準備。","我們接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de68d95b7e5bda7242018cf3659852ed25088e117da0b2e7151581072cc072802035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"15:19:30 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韓院長 我們有請我們的卓院長以及內政部的部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢院長好 兩位長官好我不知道你今天的報告這個是哪一位的幕僚幫你寫的"},{"start":36.434,"end":51.233,"text":"這個報告叫做睜眼說瞎話你知道吧你看到第四頁我也截了一段你們寫了說損失金額每月減少五億元但是從今年的二月"},{"start":52.474,"end":76.185,"text":"3月4月一路攀升一路攀升你怎麼好小意思講說每月減少5億這是睜眼說瞎話我們也要你回答你先不要回答不要急那麼我們來看按照這個來推估不是推估事實上是如此一年我們的被詐騙的金額高達1000億高達1000億是多我為了這個事情開過兩次公聽會"},{"start":79.417,"end":102.055,"text":"我幾乎我的辦公室啊幾乎每個禮拜一定有好幾件被炸的有老師 退休的老師有退休的公務員來一邊講一邊哭啊哎呀我這個開公聽會的時候找那個當事人來他講講就哭起來了七十幾歲他的所有的積蓄一千萬都沒了"},{"start":102.964,"end":130.627,"text":"都不去啊然後呢 那時候我找了內政部的警政署相關的長官來那個長官非常的認真跟他說這個 報告這個老師你這個錢大概要不回來了欸 多殘酷啊我們找長官來欸警政署長官來就告訴他沒有希望 為什麼平均如果真的能破 不一定能破能破大概一年拿回來多少 十把"},{"start":132.079,"end":142.528,"text":"拿回來這是最樂觀的最樂觀的就是一年能夠破案因為他立案就要一個月到三個月的時間然後再開始調查什麼之類的"},{"start":145.061,"end":167.646,"text":"真的 台灣很可憐的啦我們的打詐金額 預算越變越多打詐指揮中心 人員也都給你們愛人給你們 愛錢給你們結果我們的結果是這樣就是我每一次人家跟我講的時候我心裡都好難過 我說我能做什麼我跟立法委能做什麼好了 最近又看到一個 也是要跟我們澄清"},{"start":169.682,"end":194.446,"text":"錢沒有很多 可是我心裡也很痛他說 通知他 你電費少交了請你補49塊錢 台幣49點進去 49 進去以後就進去了好了 扣款扣多少 3萬8這是千真萬確的事實我的鄉民服務案 如果你要我都可以給你看"},{"start":196.052,"end":221.587,"text":"怎麼會這個樣子他叫我說我少交了四十幾塊錢結果一扣扣三萬八這就是詐騙集團這就是我們各自全部都洩露院長你知道嗎台灣的我們所有的人包括你我在內包括韓院長包括所有的部委首長"},{"start":222.935,"end":248.232,"text":"每一個人的個資通通在網上可以被交易總共多少錢你知道嗎全台灣2300萬人金額多少錢2300萬人的個資賣5000塊美金賣5000塊美金這是我們目前的狀況目前的狀況是這個樣子我們裡面有寫到院長 院長"},{"start":249.693,"end":269.431,"text":"你們今天說這本報告多少賭多少我們也不要在這裡口舌我當然我知道你回答很多你也不滿意 這個態度對這個態度對 可是我們希望要進取預計 針對問題我們來看比較客觀給你打分數 check GPT他幫你打分數"},{"start":274.049,"end":300.389,"text":"落實性給你5分25分裡面給5分等於100分的話就是給多少?給20分而已可衡量性10分而已創新性15分 條理完整作文比賽 你們25分得滿分 你看到你這切的GPT對你不錯說你很好作文 你很好作文但是你看"},{"start":301.209,"end":315.014,"text":"報告委員 我不會以60分為滿意我要更高 我們要努力我不會以60分為滿意 我要更高我要更高 不會以60分為滿意希望我們一起努力"},{"start":317.47,"end":341.443,"text":"好 這個兩位長官你們真的我是在第一線的我第一線的明帶這種案子實在太多了幾乎每個禮拜都有有時候這個禮拜多一點有時候這個禮拜少一點幾乎都有 心裡很痛啊因為來的幾乎都是退休的幾乎都是退休的他說 有的參加投資投資 現在投資最多啊"},{"start":342.908,"end":367.047,"text":"都跟這件事情有關係 洩露個資來我們來看喔我們那個書發部的長官也可以一起來齁這是審計部的報告 請看這個page審計部的報告我們打詐是不是應該有一個統一的窗口你現在看喔書發部編113年編了網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":373.519,"end":379.322,"text":"通報查詢網這幾個APP系統開發跟維護維運的預算1350萬114年平台維運5800多萬"},{"start":389.462,"end":406.793,"text":"我們165大家都知道啊 打電話詐騙了165打165165這個警政署這邊編了110萬可是呢 舉報的功能反詐騙平台編了1210萬老實講 這兩個是重組的報告委員 你聽不聽得懂不要急 不要急喔 不要急喔部長是說這數據有誤5月15號 蘇華部的正式上線結果通報只有7筆你知道嗎 4000筆"},{"start":416.957,"end":423.409,"text":"四千筆 絕對不值 我就查了這個是審計部的報告審計部的報告"},{"start":426.92,"end":450.598,"text":"我以上的資料都是審計部的審計部跟你查的 這很有公信力的什麼都不知 你不能夠以你的那種感覺來 我就請教院長 索巴部的黃部長先不要讓你講話來 院長你這個能不能整合一下能不能整合一下 你不要 這兩個都一樣啊有什麼不一樣 重複的啊重複啊 我預算裡面 所以你這個錢這樣子亂花一通"},{"start":451.243,"end":453.385,"text":"我們今年才上線 審計部應該沒有最新的資料"},{"start":474.545,"end":482.815,"text":"審計部的資料就114年這是我家進來的113年是審計部的資料114年是我的那審計部就是審計部的重點所以這兩個應該要結合我就告訴你這一點審計部的報告"},{"start":488.608,"end":505.972,"text":"報告委員我們現在下架的數目超過3萬就是說下架的數目所以這個數字是有嚴重錯誤他原來一上去5月15號我現在跟你講5月15號我不是講現在我跟你講5月15號5月15號我要跟你強調現在老實講老百姓習慣165老百姓習慣165"},{"start":509.982,"end":518.349,"text":"所以我覺得這次是稽開的我們蘇華部的黃部長請你回去我們再請衛福部的長官時間請暫停一下請衛福部備詢邱部長內政部的劉部長要可以先請回"},{"start":542.676,"end":568.432,"text":"今天啦 我特別講一個東西啊資料外洩 我們有民安 有網暗網 有社群通訊軟體然後呢 馬街醫院2002年的 今年的3月 他的資料外洩那時候我就去問給你們喔給你們喔 給衛福部喔 立法委員 賴司法辦公室去問給你"},{"start":569.656,"end":597.31,"text":"你們給我回答的是什麼你們給我回答的是說這是暗網 這不是暗網 這是明網這是明網 這不是暗網 OK然後今天最新的 今天剛出來的台灣阿比侯頭頸外科醫學會各自全部結論那個院長啊 你知道吧我們每一個人 很多人"},{"start":598.922,"end":622.381,"text":"以我為例 我就常常接到這個電話 也不是電話 簡訊簡訊就告訴我什麼地方可以投資你要投資嗎 什麼投資平台 加入什麼社 什麼投資社好了 那我就想 他怎麼有我的電話他怎麼有我的電話 我隨便一問 每一個人都有類似這樣的遭遇"},{"start":623.342,"end":646.789,"text":"我們的個資洩漏的非常的嚴重所以今天來講的話可以這麼講我今天要打砸怎麼樣防止個資的外洩是非常重要的我剛才一開始我就講了我們五千塊美金可以把台灣所有每一個人的個資都拿到這個是昨天晚上我看到的資料那個邱部長"},{"start":649.494,"end":664.472,"text":"這個B喉外科醫學會這裡面就是每一個大醫生他的姓名他的電話他的住址通在裡面請部長回答 說明一下好 包委"},{"start":665.625,"end":693.9,"text":"從今年3月我們開始發現醫院有相關的資安的一個資料的一個外線以後我們衛福部的資訊是馬上就召集我們所有的關鍵就是也就是急重症的醫院就是那個關鍵的醫院大概有二三十家我們就馬上來整個資安的一個部的一個檢視然後給他們一個SOP那除了這樣以後所以他們以後就"},{"start":694.639,"end":719.451,"text":"不會再發生這種情況那另外因為這樣的SOP台灣的醫院有幾百家所以也後來比較小型的醫院也希望他們也能夠有這樣的一個SOP所以我們也都布置下去了今天是鎖定衛福部鎖管的好多醫院都各自外洩的不會不會現在都已經我們都已經有給他們SOP新光也有啊對不對沒有我現在問你喔"},{"start":721.101,"end":739.248,"text":"那醫學會來講會比較因為醫學會還沒有列管到我們的這個好像醫療機構一樣他只是會員的資料不是病人的資料所以這個部分我們會來瞭解你對於現在醫院的治安有沒有做一些輔導"},{"start":742.257,"end":770.96,"text":"對醫院的治安我們有進行輔導當然我們從三月以後就我們已經給非常嚴格的用最高規格的來對三十家這種大型的醫院我們已經給他最嚴格的治安的指導然後接下來又把這個SOP做法給所有的醫院去遵照因為有些醫院沒辦法有那麼多資源來建造來建構這樣的一個治安網你要指導怎麼樣去"},{"start":771.929,"end":794.483,"text":"我有一句話 我們對醫院 對銀行 對電信公司 對護證所我們都展開這樣的 因為掌握了這個趨勢了各自的保護 針對這幾個機關你們要不要要求醫院設資安長這樣的一個做法 我想各個醫院都一定有資安的一個體系 一個主任銀行有資安長 但是醫院沒有"},{"start":799.625,"end":822.483,"text":"我們公立的各部會以及我們機關我們都設有資安長醫院沒有資安長如果沒有的話我們會請他能夠補上因為資安長確實在保護個資上面是需要的一定有資訊室主任但是資安長他的一個設立跟定位我們趕快來研議看看能不能配合整個政府的組織來一同步那個蘇華部的長官可以再一起來"},{"start":827.116,"end":853.104,"text":"這個最後一小題麻煩再請速發部備選那個邱部長可以請回謝謝我們都知道現在的詐騙變成是跨國性的那麼連結國際打擊假帳號我們跟Meta或者Google Line合作阻斷詐騙的廣告具體的規範跟KPI有沒有來 請教"},{"start":853.826,"end":872.323,"text":"自從炸房條例通過之後我們是定期密集的跟這四大平台網路廣告平台商有開會後來我們要求兩個基本要做到一個就是實名制一個就是他們收到所謂的下架的公文要在24小時內廣告下架這個他們"},{"start":873.905,"end":888.639,"text":"我們就執行一段時間以後發現Meta沒有做到所以我們已經罰過他兩次1600萬什麼時候可以全部做到我們現在就邀請現在就要全部做到但是現在沒有全部做到現在我們就是定期在查驗什麼時候可以"},{"start":891.201,"end":916.624,"text":"他們只要沒有做到我們馬上開罰所以現在我們還在檢查所以目前是這樣子現在其實對於那個詐騙的廣告其實可以RPG不是可以封嗎RPG是那種一頁式網站一頁式網站就是說如果是那種一頁式網站我們如果查到的話我們會進行所謂RPG把它遮蔽但是對LINE 對FACEBOOK"},{"start":917.262,"end":930.296,"text":"對Google這種公司你不可能把它全部遮蔽所以你只能要求它下架某些有問題的廣告所以對這次公司我們做法是用發文去要求它下降有問題的網頁有問題的廣告這是我們目前的目的好 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送你一個什麼東西引誘你你進來之後慢慢很多人在旁邊圍攻你讓你以為這個群"},{"start":304.456,"end":325.494,"text":"這個環境裡面是大家都在投資這個正常的行為結果只有你一個是被害人其他都是假的嘛對不對好所以我在這個情境之下我想要請教部長或者是我們速發部就是說在這種情境之下假如我們最常用的我覺得以前最常用的辦案技巧就是"},{"start":326.837,"end":344.207,"text":"有一點叫做這個叫釣魚就是說我事實上跳進去我就是要我就是要破獲這樣的一個集團但是我進去後比如我進入這樣一個line的一個群組後我有辦法因為在這個群組裡面然後把他們後面整批人揪出來嗎依現在的科技我們做得到嗎"},{"start":347.402,"end":367.56,"text":"謝謝那個委員我想我們現在檢警調對這一種的包括電信網路的一個擦漆像這一種的在網路上我們有那個警察巡我們有巡邏我們有那個各大系統就負責是看來一個社群網站社群的一個軟體媒體我們都有在做一個巡邏都沒有分工"},{"start":368.36,"end":382.213,"text":"有巡邏但是我們如果已經巡邏到我們已經進入了好我們先看到一個假的臉書的一個訊息讓我們接觸到然後他就跟我們開始我們跟他對話對話完他叫我們加入進入這個LINE的一個群組"},{"start":383.214,"end":409.822,"text":"好 我都進去了 那我抓得到他嗎我想這個每個個案都不同啦其實從這個網路上我們可以試著去抓得到我也知道這個成功率不是那麼大 這很辛苦我們這部分最好是用即時的一個下架我想這部分整個一個速發部這部分會跟社群軟體的一個公司他們業者再做一個下架的通知部長 下架是一塊事實上我也就是要問速發部啦"},{"start":410.822,"end":434.884,"text":"那既然就是有這樣的一個群組那既然這個群組他一定有一個他的末端那這個末端的人我們沒辦法掌握嗎報告委員通常做法是這樣我們最好是希望在源頭就在他在廣告登出來的時候這個詐騙廣告我們就能夠發現把它下架所以不要讓民眾進入這個詐騙廣告再進入私人群組因為一旦進入私人群組要抓就比較困難"},{"start":435.504,"end":460.044,"text":"所以在源頭我們用AI用網路詐騙通報查詢網去發現詐騙廣告目前我們用這種方式已經使得投資詐騙廣告下降了九成九也就是說過去一個月七萬八千多件現在剩下七百多件OK 但是速發部我想我要跟部長說的就是說你請他下架但是民眾是覺得說既然有源頭為什麼抓不到"},{"start":461.61,"end":479.803,"text":"跟委員報告他有下單啊 他有去買廣告啊我想這個是全方位的委員關心的這是一個查緝的一個方向那我想很多的切入口我們包括洗錢的那一部分譬如說因為我們現在臺灣檢署 各地檢署我們現在也跟那個金融機構金融去簽MOU"},{"start":480.583,"end":507.59,"text":"那這個1000MOU就是從那個可疑賬戶的資金往來去勾結用大數據AI的去分析去勾結出來所以我們最近有謝文給我今天有這個機會講就譬如說台北地球有一個展金專案也就是一個郵局提供的這個可疑賬戶而破獲了一個一個非常龐大的一個一個詐團那這個被害人高達5000多個那這個破獲的這個被騙金的高達150幾億那這個壓了50幾個人"},{"start":510.191,"end":524.005,"text":"那所以這一件就有一個非常的棒的另外台中地檢也有透過那個土地營養提供的可依帳戶的這些來勾結出來的用帳戶來抓來勾結這件事很重要這個是MOU的對 部長因為我時間有限我有設定幾個問題啦所以我沒辦法給你我們就知道說從"},{"start":529.649,"end":553.815,"text":"這個社群媒體來揪出詐團這是一個方式第二個就是說因為事實上今天好多委員都有去講到我們訂了這個詐欺犯罪的一個防治條例47條你只要繳交犯罪所得的話你可以減薪執行那過去就變得說很多法院他們在認定上他們認為繳交犯罪所得是以他的報酬"},{"start":555.535,"end":583.622,"text":"那我舉一個例子 我現在就舉一個例子假如有詐騙集團騙了對我騙了一千萬我被詐騙集團騙了一千萬那車手勒就是我拿 但是我被騙一千萬是好幾次其中一個車手其中一個車手從我這裡經手了一百萬我一百萬給他那這個車手跟詐團拿到了十萬塊"},{"start":585.129,"end":602.125,"text":"我想請教部長 部長這讓你回答那這一個車手他是要繳交10萬塊100萬還是1000萬他就可以試用47條所以這個是非常不合理所以這次那個最高法院那個刑事大法院他是採用個人的報酬說就10萬塊"},{"start":603.445,"end":622.535,"text":"事實上他被騙的金額那個被害人被騙的說明就是一千萬甚至一億所以我們認為是要以被害人的損害而說交出的部長我看起來最高法院大法庭還是這樣過去的法官他就用十萬塊少數幾個他用少數的他就用十萬塊這個大法庭是把他拉到了一百萬"},{"start":623.576,"end":644.506,"text":"就是以這個車手他經手的大法庭是少數說是個人報酬說個人報酬是10萬塊有的法官是會用100萬有的法官會用100萬就是以這個車手實際處理的所以我們最近有提出修法我們認為還是要站在被害人的觀點他的損失是1000萬"},{"start":645.926,"end":656.196,"text":"他的損失是1000萬所以他應該要負責這一千萬來換取他的減刑但是我覺得這個就是會卡在說這個車手到底實際上支出了什麼"},{"start":659.106,"end":683.478,"text":"車手實際獲得什麼所以我在講這個就是說我們要站在被害人的觀點去思考這件事情所以我在舉很多個案很多個案的一個產生因為我遇到了很多來跟我說曾經他遇到詐騙警察我請他去警察提告他也去提告了他就是真的去警局提告了過了兩個月後他接到一個不起訴書"},{"start":685.336,"end":702.788,"text":"人非常的沮喪說我被詐騙那我去提告去提告誰去提告那個假帳號的提供人結果後來是不起訴書我把這個不起訴書列出列出來了他不起訴的原因是什麼他說因為你告這個詐騙這個帳號的提供人他這個帳號騙了好幾個人前面的人已經告了"},{"start":713.335,"end":731.236,"text":"前面的人 前面被害者已經告了你在後面告前面那部分已經告了也判完了所以你跟他是一個行為他是同一個提供賬號的行為所以你後面去告你就變成拿到不起訴書部長你覺得這件事合理嗎"},{"start":733.12,"end":754.754,"text":"這是洗錢方式吧他那個提供的那個165提供的那個現在是提供那個是在21條吧應該是在洗錢法21條的一個事情最近一個修法就是要提供三次最早的時候現在修法就是要因為現在其實沒有修法之前因為地檢署可能大部分檢察官就是認為他這個是"},{"start":757.716,"end":782.448,"text":"沒辦法證明他直接的故意所以會不起訴書書員檢察官是跟他說因為是同一行為啦因為他就一個提供賬號行為嘛然後有十個人受騙嘛那前面的部分因為九個人有去提告已經判完了他也已經在關了所以你是後面去告的人你是後面去告的人所以你這個已經被前面已經判完了你後面去告他就給你一個不起訴書那這件事影響到了什麼"},{"start":783.348,"end":803.126,"text":"這件事還有後續因為我就跟他說好沒關係那你至少要告民事對那個民事是有184的那個你至少要告民事就侵權行為嘛至少民事你要取得對他的一個債權憑證未來你還是可以把追索回來嘛結果他就去適用了詐欺犯罪第54條第54條說如果你因為詐欺你請求損害賠償的時候你可以暫免繳償判費"},{"start":808.13,"end":835.429,"text":"結果法院呢 這個法院的一個民事裁定說 抱歉 因為你之前那一份是不起訴書所以你不是用免繳裁判費 部長你會覺得這樣聽聽就 哇 這很不準怎麼會這樣 一個被詐騙的被害人 他去尋求他的司法救濟的時候 層層受阻啦很不準所以部長 報告委員 行政院實在不應該對個案的"},{"start":837.868,"end":864.202,"text":"起訴不起訴或判決來多加揣測的意見但是我是希望這樣的意見能夠讓司法院能夠理解怎麼樣幫助行政院來完成打詐行為司法院應該要我這個因為我都各自都把它蓋住了但是這個不是只有這一個個案是這樣的狀況的情況之下法院的統一的做法會採取這樣所以我們今天我覺得我們在這裡我們除了去"},{"start":865.623,"end":879.317,"text":"講說現在台灣打詐的問題很嚴重我覺得這樣是不夠的因為我們這裡代表立法院你們是行政機關我們應該要立更多法律出來對這個打詐有實際的一個效果"},{"start":880.422,"end":906.487,"text":"這是我們的責任我現在再講一個例子以被害人來出發的話我們看現在有很多破獲的說包括第三方支付他可能涉及幫打詐洗錢最近破獲好多那也因為從第三方支付抓到金流了也知道詐騙集團的部分人是誰了抓到這些部分人了那行政機關 法務部有告知這些被害人"},{"start":907.347,"end":924.756,"text":"告訴任何一個人說你的這個案件我抓到源頭了有告訴他們嗎沒有這就是我覺得我們做的不好的地方應該要告訴他們因為他們之後還有來民事求償的這個權利我們至少這一塊既然他都跟我們來提出"},{"start":945.899,"end":947.46,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員的質詢 謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":108,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（15時3分）謝謝院長，我們有請卓院長及法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長及法務部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長好。院長，因為今天的專報是針對打擊詐騙，是要來探討打詐行動綱領2.0的執行成效，事實上，我們也都看到了詐騙的相關數據，尤其是投資詐騙大概占現在所有詐欺犯罪的65%強，而且臺灣2025年有一份民調顯示，有超過72%的人表示自己曾遭遇過詐騙，當然每一個人是否會被詐騙可能要看他所遇到的不同情境，但是大家都很擔心自己遭受詐騙，確實，最近因為詐騙導致他可能一輩子的積蓄被騙走，造成他在之後沒辦法維持生計，甚至有很多我們很不想看到的一些新聞事件就因此而發生了。所以打詐這件事情，我覺得對我們整個行政團隊來說，一定是一個很重要的任務，所以我相信院長、部長跟在場我們每一位行政團隊長官，甚至到最基層的員警，大家都很認真的在打詐，這個我都相信。但是在這麼認真打詐的時候，為什麼我們還是沒辦法真正有效的遏止詐騙呢？院長，我想聽聽看，這段時間以來，我們的努力跟我們遇到的瓶頸是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先第一個，每個禮拜行政院政務委員會議的時候，林明昕政委都會就那一週，整個詐騙案件的案件數跟金額來做分析跟比較，並報告給所有的政務委員了解，我們在那邊共同討論。這也印證剛剛委員所說的，大家實在是很用心在這塊上面。","但是打詐這件事情是，當我們有新的方式出現，詐騙集團也會推陳出新、手段翻新，他們的方式也一直在改變，不僅應用數位化科技，而且透過境外的方式，用不同的年輕族群去從事一些比較低階的詐騙車手的工作，讓我們實在是在整個圍堵網上產生了相當大的工作能量。","這個都是詐騙集團一直發生的，從他們鎖定各種不同的特定族群，透過語言等各種方式各方面來加以引誘，所以我們要找出這些潛在的被害人加以分析，提前告訴他們。我們從識詐、防詐、堵詐、阻詐以及到懲詐各方面，都分別有很多的工作在做，這是我們現在在做的，當然有所不及，而且我們要大力的趕上。","現在法務部也透過打詐四法，再透過跟司法院合作，要對新四法當中尚有不及之處再予以加強，包括刑度，包括整個刑罰的態樣等等，還有包括成、少共犯等等都把他集合在一起，這個是我們目前在努力的。我知道，努力的方向還不夠深遠，但是我們都把方向給找出來了。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。所以院長，就像我說的，剛剛聽你講這一段，就如同我講的，我相信行政院非常努力，一定要把打詐這一塊做出成效給國人看。但是看起來就是這些詐騙集團有利可圖，所以他們窮盡一切方法，甚至說他們只要人在國外，然後他們把他們的一些IP都移到國外去，會導致我們在追查犯罪的時候會產生很多斷點，這件事情就很麻煩。","我們現在看到的就是說，我們還是在，過去我們打詐可能都比較站在加害人的角度，就是要詐騙的人，我覺得我們有時候要轉一下。轉一下就是說我們要回到被害人，到底被害人為什麼被詐騙？從第一步，第一步是什麼？就是他怎麼接觸到詐騙的人。現在看起來，詐騙的人最常用的就是透過社群媒體，包括我們的臉書，包括IG、Threads，甚至後來就把他們引誘到一個LINE的群組裡面，這個群組裡面全部都是在騙他的，他自己不知道，結果他就陷入了一個被詐騙，然後投資詐騙往往越投資越多……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且他的方式，以前是直接叫你投資，現在可能是……"],["蔡委員易餘：他直接誘使你投資，甚至他早期還給你一點毛頭小利。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在可能是先送你一個東西，送你一本書，送你一個什麼來引誘你，你進來之後，慢慢很多人在旁邊圍攻你，讓你以為這個群組、這個環境裡面大家都在投資是正常的行為，結果只有你一個是被害人，其他都是假的。"],["蔡委員易餘：其他都是假的嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。所以在這個情境之下，我想要請教部長或是我們數發部，在這種情境之下，假如我們最常用的，以前我們最常用的一個辦案技巧就是俗稱的「釣魚」，我們辦案人員跳進去事實上就是要破獲這樣的犯罪集團。但是我進去後，比如我進入這樣一個LINE的群組後，我有辦法因為在這個群組裡面，然後把他們後面整批人揪出來嗎？依現在的科技，我們做得到嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。我們現在檢警調對這一種的，包括像電信網路詐欺這一種的，在網路上我們有警察在巡邏，我們也有各大系統在負責看哪一個社群網站（社群媒體），我們都有分工在進行巡邏……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，有巡邏，但是我們如果已經巡邏到了，我們已經進入了。好，我們現在看到一個假的臉書的訊息，讓我們接觸到，然後我們就開始跟他對話，對話完他叫我們加入（進入）一個LINE的群組。好，我都進去了，那我抓得到他嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想每個個案都不同啦！有些我們其實從這個網路線索可以試著去抓抓看，我也知道這個成功率不是那麼大，這很辛苦。我們這部分最好是用即時下架的方式，我想整個數發部對於這部分會跟社群軟體公司、業者再做一個下架的通知。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，下架是一塊，事實上我也就是要問數發部，既然就是有這樣一個群組，既然這個群組一定有一個它的末端，那這個末端的人，我們沒辦法掌握嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，通常我們的作法是這樣，我們希望最好是在源頭，就是在廣告一登出來的時候，我們就能夠發現這個詐騙廣告，把它下架，不要讓民眾進入這個詐騙廣告，再進入私人群組，因為一旦進入私人群組，要抓就比較困難，所以在源頭，我們用AI、用網路詐騙通報查詢網去發現這個詐騙廣告，目前我們用這種方式已經使得投資詐騙廣告下降了九成九，也就是說，過去一個月七萬八千多件，現在剩下七百多件。"],["蔡委員易餘：OK。但是數發部……我要跟部長說的是，你請他下架，但是民眾是覺得，既然有源頭，為什麼抓不到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["蔡委員易餘：他有下單啊，他有去買廣告啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這是全方位的，委員所關心的是一個查緝的方向。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想有很多的切入口，包括洗錢那一部分，譬如說，以臺高檢署、各地檢署來說，我們現在跟金融機構簽MOU，簽MOU就是從可疑帳戶的資金往來去勾稽、用大數據、AI去分析、去勾稽出來，所以我們最近有……謝謝委員今天給我這個機會來說明，譬如說，臺北地檢有一個斬金專案，也就是一個郵局提供的可疑帳戶而破獲了一個非常龐大的詐團，被害人高達五千多個，破獲的被騙金額高達一百五十幾億，押了五十幾個人，所以這一件有非常棒的成果。另外，臺中地檢也有透過土地銀行提供的可疑帳戶而勾稽出來的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，用帳戶來抓、來勾稽這件事很重要。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是MOU的……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，部長，因為我的時間有限，我有設定幾個問題，所以我沒辦法再讓你說明。我們都知道從社群媒體來揪出詐團是一個方式；第二個，事實上今天好多委員都有講到，我們訂了詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條，你只要繳交犯罪所得的話可以減輕其刑。過去就變成說很多法院在認定上，他們認為繳交犯罪所得是以他的報酬，我舉一個例子，我現在就舉一個例子，假如有詐騙集團對我騙了1,000萬，我被詐騙集團騙了1,000萬，但是我被騙的1,000萬是分好幾次，其中一個車手從我這裡經手了100萬，我把100萬給他，這個車手跟詐團拿到了10萬塊，我想請教部長，部長，這讓你回答，這個車手是要繳交10萬塊、100萬還是1,000萬，他就可以適用第四十七條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這個是非常不合理，這次最高法院刑事大法庭是採個人報酬說，就是10萬塊，事實上，他被騙的金額，被害人被騙的說不定是1,000萬，甚至1億，所以我們認為是要以被害人的損害額說……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我看起來最高法院大法庭他是這樣，過去的法官就是用10萬塊。"],["鄭部長銘謙：少數幾個……"],["蔡委員易餘：少數的他是用10萬塊，這個大法庭是把它拉到100萬，就是以這個車手他經手的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：大法庭是少數說，是個人報酬說。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，個人報酬是10萬塊，有的法官是會用100萬。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對、對、對。"],["蔡委員易餘：有的法官會用100萬，就是以這個車手實際處處理的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們最近……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我們最近有提出修法，我們認為還是要站在被害人的觀點。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：他的損失是1,000萬，所以他應該要負責這1,000萬來換取他的減刑，但是我覺得這就是會卡在這個車手到底實際上支出了什麼。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為是從共犯理論……"],["蔡委員易餘：車手實際獲得什麼？所以我在講這個就是說，我們要站在被害人的觀點去思考這件事情。我再舉例，很多個案的產生，因為我遇到很多人來跟我說、跟我陳情說他遇到詐騙集團，我請他去警察局提告，他也去提告，他真的去警局提告了，過了2個月他接到一個不起訴書，他非常的沮喪、很鬱悶，說他被詐騙，他去提告了，去提告誰？去提告那個假帳號的提供人，結果後來是收到不起訴書，我把這個不起訴書列出來了。不起訴的原因是什麼？它說，因為你告這個詐騙帳號的提供人，但這個帳號騙了好幾個人，前面的被害者已經告了，你在後面告，前面那部分已經告了、也判完了，所以你跟他是一個行為，是同一個提供帳號的行為，所以後面去告的就變成拿到不起訴書。部長，你覺得這件事合理嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是洗錢防制法，165提供的，那個是在第二十一條吧！"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該是在洗錢防制法第二十一條的一個事情，最近一個修法就是要提供三次……最早的時候，現在修法就是要……其實在沒有修法之前，因為地檢署大部分檢察官認為這個是沒辦法證明直接的故意，所以會不起訴處分，如果起訴的話……"],["蔡委員易餘：檢察官跟他說因為是同一行為，因為就是一個提供帳號的行為，然後有10個人受騙，前面的部分因為9個人有去提告，已經判完了，他也已經在關了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是一個提供……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，你是後面去告的人，但這個在前面已經判完了，你在後面去告，於是就給一個不起訴書。這件事影響到了什麼？這件事還有後續，因為我跟他說，沒關係，那至少要去告民事。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，民事是有民法第一百八十四條的侵權行為……"],["蔡委員易餘：你至少要告民事，就是侵權行為嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：侵權行為損害賠償嘛！"],["蔡委員易餘：告了民事，要取得對他的一個債權憑證，未來還是可以追索回來嘛！結果他就去適用了詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條，第五十四條說如果因為詐欺請求損害賠償的時候，可以暫免繳裁判費，結果法院的民事裁定說，不好意思，因為之前那一份是不起訴書，所以不適用免繳裁判費。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你會覺得聽到這樣很鬱卒嗎？怎麼會這樣？一個被詐騙的被害人去尋求司法救濟的時候，層層受阻，很鬱卒！所以部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行政院實在不應該對個案的起訴、不起訴或判決多加揣測的意見……"],["蔡委員易餘：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我是希望這樣的意見能夠讓司法院能夠理解，怎麼樣幫助行政院來完成打詐行為，司法院應該要再推一把。"],["蔡委員易餘：院長，相關個資我都把它蓋住了，但是這不是只有這一個個案，而是這樣狀況的情況之下，法院的統一作法會採取這樣，所以今天我們在這裡除了說現在臺灣詐騙的問題很嚴重，我覺得這樣是不夠的，因為我們這裡代表立法院，你們是行政機關，我們應該要立更多法律出來對打詐有實際的一個效果，這是我們的責任！","我現在再講一個例子，以被害人出發的話，我們看現在有很多破獲的，包括第三方支付，它可能涉及幫詐騙洗錢，最近破獲了好多，因為從第三方支付抓到金流了，也知道詐騙集團部分的人是誰，抓到這些人了，行政機關、法務部有告知這些被害人、告訴任何一個人，相關案件已經抓到源頭了，有告訴他們嗎？沒有！這就是我覺得我們做得不好的地方，應該要告訴他們，因為他們之後還有民事求償的權利，至少在這一塊，既然他都已經提告了，之後我們就有義務要把後續偵辦狀況讓被害人知道，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：在程序制度上還有所不足，我們會深刻檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯，我覺得不管是立法，還是怎樣，我們都應該把它做得更好，以被害人為出發點來做的話，才有辦法真正遏止詐騙，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請賴士葆委員質詢，李坤城委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163530","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6212c1b927a403d8818cf3659852ed25088e117da0b2e71516e64d1a1634640805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"14:46:31 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我請卓院長還有內政部部長NCC代理主委好 謝謝庶發部部長金管會主委法務部部長王護衛 我們一次是三位為主一次三位 好那就先請院長和內政部部長以及法務部部長好 謝謝請卓院長內政部法務部備詢"},{"start":44.984,"end":52.61,"text":"黃委員好時間要暫停一下我想請問一下針對現在政府反詐騙的成績您滿意嗎"},{"start":65.509,"end":87.658,"text":"早上也有相當多的委員詢問過這樣我始終的答案是我知道我跟國人一樣都不會滿意現在的任何成績但是我希望大家給我們第一線的工作人員多一點的鼓勵多一點的時間我們內政部長您認為在內政部的工作打照有收到成效嗎您滿意嗎"},{"start":89.5,"end":114.062,"text":"報告 報告委員 從來沒有滿意過因為打炸本來就是有很多不同的面向 大家一起合作所以成效仍然不髒我們第一線的同仁確實很努力 非常的努力在處理打炸有成效嗎我認為成效不是太好 不夠好來 我請教我們法務部部長您對法務部打炸的成效 您滿意嗎"},{"start":115.923,"end":141.224,"text":"我想我們可以再更有努力的一個空間那我想我們檢察官也跟各個機關來做一個合作好 所以成效仍然不夠好對 那個我們有很多的非常好的一個案例那我想對一個兆團這其實也建立一個很好的一個我來請院長和部長其實我剛才點名的幾位部長首長也請你們看一下"},{"start":142.265,"end":171.565,"text":"行政院一直把打詐作為一個主要的施政的目標但是這幾年行政院變成伏詐王也就是從蔡英文政府時代那個時候從成立所謂的跨部會中心的打詐中心一直到2022年又成立了打詐國家隊2023年蔡政府又成立了行政院的打詐辦公室"},{"start":172.285,"end":190.27,"text":"可是我們打詐的金額跟數量逐年升高並沒有隨著這些打詐中心打詐辦公室而有所改善而這兩年我們打詐就是被詐騙的金額更是節節升高"},{"start":191.01,"end":207.566,"text":"以今年一到七月份我們半年被詐騙的金額達到555億元比去年的502年已經超越了而這個是我們行政院又成立新世代打擊詐騙詐欺行動綱領的2.0所以"},{"start":212.35,"end":232.206,"text":"我們現在每一個首長都說要打詐 預算也編了但是如果我們看被詐騙的數字 尤其金額事實上是越來越讓人觸目驚心所以行政院變成伏詐王 而不是打詐王"},{"start":233.027,"end":250.335,"text":"那我另外請教在今年我們編列了預算2025年中央政府就是當時因為要打炸所以呢這個有關於打炸的預算由前一年的2024年13億元增加到73億元"},{"start":252.576,"end":270.481,"text":"增加的數量不算少是倍數5.6倍之多那我想請問一下這麼多的預算的金額其中還是網路課金運用的經濟計劃所以我剛才為什麼去特別去點名像數法部NCC"},{"start":272.126,"end":286.173,"text":"請問一下我們的預算用到哪裡去了為什麼我們編列這麼多的預算給行政院說實在我在司法法治委員會發布說要打仗要編預算我們一毛錢都不敢刪全部給"},{"start":287.506,"end":313.142,"text":"但是我們打炸的成績剛才看到鴨鴨屋所以我想請問一下這樣子的一個成績所以我剛才請教各位你們滿意嗎如果你們滿意的話我覺得所有的老百姓欲哭無淚你們在報告裡面也講到打炸有幾個是炸這個是主要是內政部的工作"},{"start":314.002,"end":333.674,"text":"賭詐NCC防詐速發部阻詐金管會懲詐懲戒詐騙法務部所以院長最近也講到行政院要內閣改組如果以現在詐騙這種成績這幾個部會誰應該要下台部長請說一下"},{"start":341.189,"end":357.647,"text":"謝謝委員打炸當然是國家重要的施政方向但是各部會不是單一做打炸這件工作我當然會要求各位首長專注在打炸這個事情上提出一個更讓國人理解跟接受的成績"},{"start":358.388,"end":372.987,"text":"但是部會的工作包羅萬象我會用綜合性的考量來看看對整個團隊對政府的施政對人民有沒有提出我們政府的施政終究會有一些目標跟KPI值"},{"start":374.048,"end":403.423,"text":"那麼有些是財經財經做的好不好那就要看了看我們的經濟成長率看我們的失業率看我們的消費物價是不是有通貨膨脹這都是有數字可以去做一個參考剛才講到這幾個部會沒有錯我也同意他的工作不是完全是在打擊詐騙可是當現在的打詐的工作已經確實做到所有的國人都有感"},{"start":403.763,"end":425.652,"text":"那種有感是什麼有感的憤怒啊有感的憤怒現在已經到了摩才害命的地步我們最近發生的台中豐原一家五口都我們很難過自殺死亡為了詐騙我們也有看到內湖母女一對母女也為了詐騙"},{"start":427.233,"end":434.989,"text":"而這個輕生所以當我們看到這麼多的社會事件而我們去看到打炸的成績所以"},{"start":436.172,"end":456.85,"text":"院長你覺得這幾個部會打詐的成績我不認為你會滿意如果你滿意的話那就代表你們是整個政府的集體麻木所以我想請問未來在內閣改組裡面打詐不力會不會成為內閣改組的一個檢討的其中的一個環節"},{"start":457.967,"end":481.59,"text":"我早上的報告跟剛剛我們都說過我們不會以現在做的成績做任何的滿意但是我們如果跟去年8月跟今年相比我們在案件數有降低了22%財產損失有降低了37%這當然還是有相當高的金額但至少趨勢有在緩緩下降我們給我們的法律依據法律手段更多的這個意思還要給你們時間"},{"start":482.671,"end":486.754,"text":"我希望大家給我們更多一點時間我們把現在的機制讓它更完善更強大依照現在所列舉的各種機制來做好各種工作這就是你不了解為什麼你們現在的整個內閣的民調滿意度這麼低"},{"start":501.565,"end":529.511,"text":"其實老說所有的相關的這些政府施政打詐是民運最高的其中之一同不同意同意好那另外院長跟您請教一下我們再來看下一頁今天在網路上有一個公文因為現在詐騙太多了我要跟院長來求證一下網路上有一個公文就是總統府函文給行政院"},{"start":532.002,"end":553.664,"text":"這個檢証本府公共事務室會診就是今年7月份民眾關注的重要議題其中一個就是要檢討今年7月26號罷免投票結果檢討罷免失敗的原因而且提供後續的施政建議院長 這個公文是真的還是假的因為我不曉得是不是詐騙"},{"start":554.987,"end":580.92,"text":"我沒有看過這個公文但是如果文藝看起來他是反映民眾關注重要議題像這樣反映民眾關注議題的文會有相當多這只是很多當中的一件而已當民眾有提出這個時候希望行政院來檢討就會轉到這裡來這只是過程當中所以你就會檢討所以院長我看我想你看到這個公文的時候你會被皮皮剉因為第一個"},{"start":582.06,"end":610.112,"text":"在整個大罷免當時總統賴清德主席講說這是公民團體的運動但是後來我們看到民進黨中央有很多的發文民進黨直接拿公文要求配合大罷免這個是我們第一次看到來自於總統府提到大罷免所以請問一下這種公文到底是總統的韓文還是黨中央的韓文"},{"start":610.652,"end":637.486,"text":"報告委員他並不是要我們配合大罷免的任何行動他是民眾來要求我們做這樣的檢討但是我認為行政院重要的工作不在檢討罷免的成敗與否行政院檢討是罷免也好或是8月23的公投也好這個投票的秩序是不是順利這個公文裡面有說檢討罷免失敗原因承認大罷免大失敗所以您承認大罷免大失敗嗎"},{"start":638.274,"end":665.177,"text":"我們只希望不管是罷免或是公投讓罷免跟公投的投票行為能夠順利這個是行政院的工作中選會跟行政院的工作至於他的結果如何不在我們檢討的範圍另外院長我請教在726之後總統府已經要求你們要去檢討失敗的原因而且提供後續的政績那麼如果823也大罷免繼續大失敗您會因此請辭下台嗎"},{"start":666.906,"end":673.569,"text":"我們不會去檢討罷免失敗的原因只要罷免的投票順利不順利這才是行政院會檢討的地方希望他能夠順利那麼一個正式工作者隨時對國人負責"},{"start":688.937,"end":717.743,"text":"这是应该有的态度我刚才特别讲其实你的打仗大失败你们的打仗大失败绝对也是这次大罢免大失败的原因但是其中因为检讨有关于大罢免失败的原因我也要问因为这两天你们行政院传出终于要普发现金一万元因为之前行政院说我们立法院通过的普发现金一万元是违宪"},{"start":718.783,"end":736.568,"text":"然後又說呢這個呢根本是政府沒有錢那甚至有民進黨立委還說這是配合中共的窮台政策把我們立法院通過的普巴現金一萬元講的不值一文"},{"start":737.708,"end":756.722,"text":"那可是現在呢行政院也提出要撲發現金一萬元那我請問一下之前你們對於立法院所通過撲發現金一萬元的種種的污衊和抨擊這是不是一個詐騙這不是污衊我們是表達行政的立場我們要舉借這是事實"},{"start":757.783,"end":776.869,"text":"這次的2350億以上的普發現金其中部分要舉借債務來支應這是事實當時沒有經過徵詢行政院而增加大幅的支出違反了憲法跟預算法的精神這也是事實所以你們現在你們來發就沒有違憲你們來發就沒有財務的問題這個說得通嗎我們是舉債"},{"start":785.097,"end":813.426,"text":"然後我要跟院長說你們因為政治上的鬥爭一直在延遲整個的我們因應美國貿易戰特別條例我們的特別條例在7月15號就在立法院三讀通過8月1號總統府就公告如果你們不這樣折騰來折騰去一直在東搞西搞現在又搞一個特別條例"},{"start":814.659,"end":822.485,"text":"搞來特別條例接下來呢就要送特別預算對不對是這時辰有沒有延當"},{"start":823.649,"end":845.259,"text":"我們在特別條例通過的時候我們這時候談判正到最後的關頭我們也很希望在談判底定的時候是不是對特別條例內容要再做有所調整所以保留了一點彈性即使到現在為止談判的最後決定還沒有出現20%是暫時性關稅所以你自己都發現你站不住腳"},{"start":845.799,"end":867.319,"text":"因為你們自己說這是暫時性好如果20%暫時性你現在即便通過來的特別條例更不要說你們還沒有告訴我們有多少市場要開放還有美國多少的產品過來關稅要降低甚至是零關稅我們通通不知道一樣啊瞎子摸象啊一樣子啊摸石頭過河啊"},{"start":868.04,"end":876.999,"text":"那在這個狀況之下你們一直遲延 延遲又把特別條例送過來我再審你特別預算所以啊 院長"},{"start":878.379,"end":905.701,"text":"我老實說你們是不是多此一舉啊不是 8月1號行政院行政效率之低下就來自8月1號20%的特別的暫時性關稅才宣布出來8月7號開始執行那我們為了說暫時性關稅能夠延續多久還保留一個彈性所以我們在預算特別條例的修正案當中提出了第二期200億的保留我們有做這樣的彈性運用 請委員支持"},{"start":906.67,"end":926.48,"text":"我們其實有關於產業資源的部分我們都會支持所以我們當時第一時間你們從880億提高到930億我們都說無條件支持你們只是為了一個普巴現金因為這樣卡卡卡我有講過蘇貞昌院長當時普巴現金當時112年2月21號特別條例三讀然後當天總統府就公佈"},{"start":935.544,"end":957.195,"text":"即使如此特別預算搞了一個月才過來才三讀通過在那個時候特別條例經總統府公告然後特別預算也到一個月才通過但是那時候蘇貞昌院長算是他是有效率的所以我要在這邊講就是因為你們花了"},{"start":973.032,"end":974.333,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":39,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（14時46分）主席，我請卓院長還有內政部部長、NCC代理主委。"],["主席：陳主委，好，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：數發部部長、金管會主委、法務部部長。"],["主席：王鴻薇委員，我們一次是三位為主。"],["王委員鴻薇：一次三位？好，那就先請院長和內政部部長以及法務部部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請卓院長及內政部、法務部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長好。時間要暫停一下，我現在是請兩位部長就位。"],["主席：好，時間暫停。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，我想請問一下。針對現在政府反詐騙的成績，您滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：早上也有相當多的委員詢問過這樣的問題，我的答案始終是，我知道我跟國人一樣，都不會滿意現在的任何成績，但是我希望大家給我們第一線的工作人員多一點鼓勵、多一點時間，我們相信可以把它做好。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我想請問一下內政部長，您認為在內政部的工作，打詐有收到成效嗎？您滿意嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，從來沒有滿意過，因為打詐本來就有很多不同的面向，大家要一起合作，但是我們第一線的同仁確實很……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以成效仍然不彰？"],["劉部長世芳：我們第一線的同仁確實很努力，非常的努力在處理打詐。"],["王委員鴻薇：有成效嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我認為成效不是太好，仍然有很多精進的空間……"],["王委員鴻薇：還不夠好？好，我請教法務部部長，您對法務部打詐的成效滿意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們可以有更努力的空間，檢察官也跟各個機關來合作，我們全力以赴。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以成效仍然不夠好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有很多非常好的案例，我想對詐團也建立了一個很好的……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我請院長和部長，其實我剛才點名那幾位部長、首長也請你們看一下，行政院一直把打詐作為一個主要的施政目標，但是這幾年，行政院變成扶詐王，從蔡英文政府時代，那個時候成立所謂的跨部會打詐中心，一直到2022年又成立了打詐國家隊，2023年蔡政府又成立了行政院的打詐辦公室，可是我們打詐的金額跟數量逐年升高，並沒有隨著這些打詐中心、打詐辦公室而有所改善，而這兩年我們打詐（被詐騙的金額）更是節節升高，以今年1到7月份，我們半年被詐騙的金額達到555億元，已經超越了去年的502億，所以行政院又成立新世代打擊詐欺行動綱領2.0。現在每一個首長來都說要打詐，預算也編了，但如果去看被詐騙的數字，尤其是金額，卻越來越讓人觸目驚心，行政院也變成扶詐王，而非打詐王！","另外，今年（2025年）在編列預算時，中央政府因為要打詐，所以有關於打詐的預算，由前一年（2024年）的13億增加到73億，增加的數量不少，達到5.6倍之多。我想請問，這麼多的預算金額，包括網路科技運用精進計畫在內，預算用到哪裡去了？所以我剛才特別點名數發部、NCC。請問預算用到哪裡去了？為什麼行政院會編列這麼多預算？法務部在司法及法制委員會說要打詐、要編預算，我們一毛錢都不敢刪，全部給，但是打詐的成績卻鴉鴉烏！這樣的成績我請教各位，你們滿意嗎？如果你們滿意的話，那麼所有的老百姓會欲哭無淚！你們在報告裡面講到，打詐分幾個部分：識詐，主要是內政部的工作；堵詐，NCC；防詐，數發部；阻詐，金管會；懲詐、懲戒詐騙，法務部。最近有講到行政院要內閣改組，以現在的詐騙成績來看，這幾個部會中誰應該要下臺？請院長說一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。打詐當然是國家重要的施政方向，但各部會不是單一只做打詐這件工作！我當然會要求各位首長專注在打詐這件事上，並提出國人能理解及接受的成績。部會的工作包羅萬象，所以我會用綜合性考量來看對整個團隊、對政府的施政、對人民有沒有提出更好的政策。"],["王委員鴻薇：政府施政終究有目標跟KPI值，有些是財經，財經做得好不好，要看經濟成長率、看失業率、看消費物價是不是有通貨膨脹，這些都有數字可以做參考。至於剛才講到的這幾個部會，沒有錯，我同意其工作並非完全在打擊詐騙，可是現在的打詐工作已經確實做到讓所有國人有感，那種有感是什麼？有感的憤怒！有感的憤怒！甚至已經到了謀財害命的地步！","最近臺中豐原發生一家五口因詐騙而自殺死亡案件，讓人很難過！我們也看到內湖一對母女為了詐騙輕生！當我們看到這麼多的社會事件，再看看打詐的成績……院長，你覺得這幾個部會打詐的成績……我不認為你會滿意，如果你滿意，就代表你們整個政府集體麻木。所以我想請問，未來內閣改組時，打詐不力會不會成為內閣改組檢討的其中一個環節？"],["卓院長榮泰：我早上報告過，剛剛我也說過，我們不會滿意現在的成績！但如果拿去年8月跟今年相比，案件數降低了22%，財產損失降低了37%，雖然金額還是相當高，但至少趨勢有在緩緩下降。當然，給我們的法律手段更多了……"],["王委員鴻薇：意思是還要給你們時間？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望大家能給我們更多時間……"],["王委員鴻薇：還要給時間？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們讓現在的機制更完善、更強大，依照現在所列舉的各種機制來做好各種工作。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，所以你不了解為什麼你們內閣的滿意度民調會這麼低！老實說，所有相關的政府施政，打詐是民怨最高的其中之一啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們瞭解、我們瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。另外，我要跟院長請教一下，我們再來看下一頁，今天在網路上有一個公文，因為現在詐騙太多了，我要跟院長來求證一下，網路上有一個公文是總統府函文給行政院，主旨是「檢送本府公共事務室彙整本（114）年7份民眾關注重要議題」，其中一個就是要檢討今年7月26號罷免投票結果，檢討罷免失敗的原因，而且提供後續的施政建議。院長，這個公文是真的還是假的？因為我不曉得這是不是詐騙。"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，我沒有看過這個公文，但是從文意看起來，這是反映民眾關注重要議題，像這樣反映民眾關注議題的文會有相當多，這只是很多當中的一件而已。"],["王委員鴻薇：很多？好。"],["卓院長榮泰：當民眾提出希望行政院來檢討的時候，就會轉到這裡來，這只是過程當中……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你就會檢討？院長，我想你看到這個公文的時候，你會不會「咇咇掣」？因為第一個，對於整個大罷免，當時賴清德總統、賴清德主席講說這是公民團體的運動，但是後來我們看到民進黨中央有很多發文，民進黨直接拿公文要求配合大罷免，而這個是我們第一次看到來自於總統府提到大罷免的文，所以請問一下，這種公文到底是總統的函文還是黨中央的函文？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，他並不是要我們配合大罷免的任何行動，而是民眾來要求我們做這樣的檢討，但是我認為行政院重要的工作不在檢討罷免的成敗與否，行政院檢討的是罷免也好，或是8月23號的公投也好，這個投票的秩序是不是順利，這個才是我們在檢討的。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，請教一下，這個公文裡面有提到檢討罷免失敗原因，承認大罷免大失敗，所以您承認大罷免大失敗嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只希望不管是罷免或是公投，讓罷免跟公投的投票行為能夠順利，這個是行政院的工作，是中選會跟行政院的工作，至於結果如何，不在我們檢討的範圍。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，我要請教院長，在726之後，總統府已經要求你們要去檢討失敗的原因，而且提供後續施政參考，如果823的大罷免也繼續大失敗，您會因此請辭下臺嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，我沒聽到。"],["王委員鴻薇：823繼續大罷免大失敗，您會因此請辭下臺嗎？總統府已經要你們去檢討726的失敗原因了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不會去檢討罷免失敗的原因，對於罷免的投票順利不順利，這才是行政院會檢討的地方，希望它能夠順利，一個政治工作者隨時對國人負責，這是應該有的態度。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，我剛才特別講，其實你們的打詐大失敗絕對也是這一次大罷免大失敗的原因，但是其中因為檢討有關於大罷免大失敗的原因，我要問，這兩天你們行政院傳出終於要普發現金1萬元，因為之前行政院說立法院通過的普發現金1萬元是違憲，然後又說政府根本就沒有錢了，甚至有民進黨立委還說這是配合中共的窮臺政策，講了一大堆，把我們立法院通過的普發現金1萬元講的不值一文，可是現在行政院也提出要普發現金1萬元，那麼我請問一下，之前你們對於立法院通過普發現金1萬元的種種污衊和抨擊，這是不是一個詐騙？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是污衊，我們是表達行政院的立場，我們要舉借，這是事實，這次2,350億以上的普發現金，其中有部分要舉借債務來支應，這是事實，當時沒有經過徵詢行政院而增加大幅的支出，違反了憲法跟預算法的精神，這也是事實，但我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在你們來發就沒有違憲，你們來發就沒有財務的問題？這說得通嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有財務的問題，我們舉債……"],["王委員鴻薇：這說得通嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是舉債。"],["王委員鴻薇：然後我要跟院長說，你們因為政治上的鬥爭，一直在延遲整個因應美國貿易戰特別條例，我們的特別條例於7月15號在立法院三讀通過，8月1號總統府就公告了，如果你們不這樣折騰來折騰去的一直在東搞西搞，現在又搞一個特別條例，搞了特別條例之後，接下來就要送特別預算，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個時程有沒有延宕？"],["卓院長榮泰：在特別條例通過的時候，那時候我們的談判正到最後的關頭，我們也很希望在談判底定的時候，是不是對特別條例的內容要再有所調整，所以保留了一點彈性，即使到現在為止，談判的最後決定還沒有出現，20%是暫時性關稅……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你自己都發現站不住腳了，因為你們自己說這是暫時性的，好，如果20%是暫時性關稅，現在即便通過特別條例，更不要說，你們還沒有告訴我們有多少市場要開放，還有美國多少的產品過來關稅要降低，甚至是零關稅，我們統統不知道！一樣啊，瞎子摸象；一樣啊，摸著石頭過河，在這個狀況之下，你們一直遲延、延遲，又把特別條例送過來……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，因為8月1號……"],["王委員鴻薇：我再審你的特別預算，所以院長，老實說你們是不是多此一舉啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，8月1號……"],["王委員鴻薇：行政院行政效率之低下，就來自這個！"],["卓院長榮泰：8月1號20%的暫時性關稅才宣布出來，8月7號開始執行，我們為了暫時性關稅能夠延續多久還保留一個彈性，所以我們在特別條例修正案當中提出了第二期200億的保留，我們有做這樣的彈性運用，請委員支持。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實有關於產業支援的部分，我們都會支持……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就在產業裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們當時第一時間，你們從880億提高到930億，我們都說無條件支持，你們只是為了一個普發現金，因為這樣卡、卡、卡！我有講過，蘇貞昌院長當時的普發現金，在112年2月21號特別條例三讀通過，然後當天總統府就公布，但即使如此，特別預算搞了一個月才送過來三讀通過，在那個時候喔，特別條例經總統府公告了，然後特別預算也到一個月後才通過，那時候蘇貞昌院長算是有效率的，所以我要在這邊講，就是因為你們花了太多時間在做這種政治性的鬥爭，然後現在因此而延宕，所以行政院要負絕大多數的責任，而且這根本是一個詐騙政府的表現！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員有所誤會，並非如此，我們會再解釋。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員質詢，賴士葆委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","羅智強","劉書彬","王義川","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","張智倫","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","蔡易餘","賴士葆","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","黃健豪","陳亭妃","葛如鈞","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002","1147101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147101_00004"}}},{"id":"163529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6938d26562e2196a218cf3659852ed2506c36b61e133957a207496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"14:30:21 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有請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢部委員好"},{"start":28.193,"end":44.7,"text":"我想從最近大家一直在關心所謂的這個詐騙的這樣子的一個議題風源一家五口的一個悲劇我想這個不是只有台灣其實詐騙這樣子的一個全世界都在關注的議題其實在歐美也是一樣的"},{"start":45.7,"end":63.997,"text":"那根據統計27%的受害者他們在接觸詐騙的同時其實在第一個小時內受騙的人其實也非常非常之多那另外呢關於投資以及交友詐騙這個長時期的被養套殺就是取得所謂的被害人的一個信任"},{"start":64.577,"end":83.596,"text":"那到巨額的一個金錢被騙那我想這一年平均下來整個所有的犯罪所得是高達將近這個還是2022年的統計高達700億以上那我想這一連串我們看到詐騙的一個問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的一個議題"},{"start":84.637,"end":99.674,"text":"那當然去年我們的行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了這個新打炸四法那我們從這個內容當中可以看到從市炸、堵炸、防炸跟阻炸以及我們的城炸這五個部分的面向"},{"start":100.794,"end":119.74,"text":"當然我們也看到最近其實我們也有很多就是破貨的一些案件當然也交出了一些成績單但我想做的永遠不夠根據今年的7月光是打炸儀表板當中數據顯示我就以一個地區來做這樣子的一個例子說明包含台中"},{"start":120.8,"end":142.321,"text":"光是詐騙集團被破獲的數量是高居全國第一那另外呢他的這個詐騙集團被破獲的高達有50團432個人落網那受理的這個詐騙的案件呢也是高居第二那整個整個所有的這個詐騙的案件數是高達2245件"},{"start":144.663,"end":165.763,"text":"那造成的財損光是7月份就已經高達了有11億多那我不曉得為什麼很多的詐騙集團是選擇在中部那也有許多的這個查獲的數量其實在台中也是最多的但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多"},{"start":166.539,"end":178.272,"text":"而下降他所被詐騙的這樣子的一個金額跟財損這個是兩相矛盾的一個現象我們有沒有分析過這個背後的原因大概會是什麼"},{"start":180.888,"end":197.833,"text":"委員我先報告一下您提到說台中市最多那其實有我們警政署的資料大概六都裡面第一個人口多第二個交通便利還有就是說他在包括網路或者是其他的通訊都非常的好而且因為他在大樓裡面或是在園區裡面"},{"start":199.153,"end":224.614,"text":"隱密性反而高你在偏鄉來得好所以被查獲到的次數就是您看到的統計資料就比較多我想這個是我們警政署的同仁在統計的時候所得到的一個統計的結果所以我想我們也會特別留意在都會地區如何可以把這個打詐可以把這個詐騙集團可以來處理的一個最重要的一個關鍵部長也點出了我等一下要接下來要詢問的"},{"start":225.871,"end":247.525,"text":"這個是媒體的報導我想已經不止一次的報導包含台中的七級高級商辦因為它的管制嚴格但反而成為博弈炸團的工作基地這個其實也是都經過媒體多次的報導連同這樣子的報導當中其實我們可以看到"},{"start":248.005,"end":270.332,"text":"這些所謂的這個高級商辦豪宅地區那原本他的管制其實就是嚴格但是也很容易淪為所謂的詐騙集團他們的工作基地那就如同剛剛部長所說的因為隱秘性高但是呢就是他的所有人就是房屋的所有人他不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好"},{"start":271.141,"end":287.19,"text":"其實在短期租賃容易讓他們比方說他們可以用比較高於行情的一些租金可能月付押金的一個方式他就可以租下這個豪宅那因為豪宅跟豪宅之間鄰居啊其實他們的互動時間相對的是減少的對"},{"start":288.09,"end":312.775,"text":"所以其實他們的管理可能就產生了這樣子的一個漏洞那在這樣子的一個漏洞當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候他們是即刻就可以逃離現場這個也讓我們的警方其實也是長期來是難以追查這是原因之一第二個我剛剛講因為詐騙集團他們通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃他們是直接買下合法的掩護"},{"start":313.675,"end":332.756,"text":"或者所謂的直接買下合法掩護因為他把它當成一個長期作案的一個基地那基於他的產權其實是合法的那相對來講他的管委會或者他的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行所謂的通報相對的來講也保護這些所謂的詐騙集團的總部的一個安全"},{"start":333.457,"end":349.208,"text":"這個也變成是我們在看到像七夕這樣所謂的高風險的一個社區租賃或者是購置的一個行為我們針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效而且管理的一個機制來彌補這樣子的一個漏洞"},{"start":349.841,"end":369.69,"text":"報告委我們了解這樣的狀況你所提到的非常的正確也就是說有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式他並不是用真名然後再來就是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間大家都互不相認識除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪這樣子的部分這地方的政府警察才會去處理"},{"start":370.37,"end":389.515,"text":"所以我們現在中央跟地方的部分就要來協助就是如果發現它有異常也就譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高或是用電量非常高的話我們會用這樣的方式來查找有可能潛在的加害的這個集團那這個都要長時間的監控才有可能達到這樣的目的"},{"start":389.955,"end":407.33,"text":"所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在做手進行其實我們都會有留意但是最最最佳的方式還是說會透過譬如說有人來檢舉那我們會更快因為如果詐騙集團假設他們都是比較年輕的或是說看起來很像是犯罪幫派"},{"start":408.53,"end":423.939,"text":"這樣的話警方才會特別留意但是如果他打扮得很時髦很登對或者看不出來的話人家以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶所以還是要透過檢舉的方式比較好那如果說郭委員有這方面的資訊的話您給我們馬上就來處理"},{"start":424.879,"end":446.289,"text":"我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案那我們也擔心其實因為豪宅也不是只有台中有其實各地都有豪宅但是類似像這樣子的一個所謂的這個犯罪的模式我們也擔心它其實已經會變成是全台灣各地的豪宅型或複合型的這些所謂的社區它會形成一個巨大的一個社區防線的破口"},{"start":447.41,"end":462.43,"text":"我想這樣子的一個模式有可能會複製到全台灣各地那我想很多的豪宅其實他們追求所謂的這個高隱私就我剛剛講的鄰居其實不互相往來那就會變成零監督的一個環境再加上有時候是租期短"},{"start":463.451,"end":478.128,"text":"豬集團就更難掌握他到底是第幾手的轉租所以這個人的流動讓很多的成豬人的動態其實根本沒有人知道所以其實這個也是我們非常擔心的一個部分那另外就是"},{"start":478.148,"end":500.809,"text":"就是在詐騙集團就是利用這些所謂的這些漏洞那北中南各地他們在用所謂的VPN或者是多跳節點這些所謂的科技的一個手段就會讓我們的警方其實更難掌握那這也是我們真的一直不斷的我們在想這個上有政策正在下有對策其實他們也不斷的在翻新他們所謂的這個詐騙的一些手法啦"},{"start":501.149,"end":527.841,"text":"那我們很擔心這不是一個單一的個案而是全台灣目前持續在擴散當中的一個狀況那我想如果再加上這個屋主他自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員如果他又是詐騙集團成員利用自家的豪宅來進行所謂的犯罪其實管委會跟物業管理我們應該要怎麼樣來從外圍來做控管這個我們有想過嗎"},{"start":528.601,"end":551.898,"text":"是 我想我們可以從不一定是警政系統啦譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會就是如果有出入人口複雜或者是很奇怪這整個月都沒有人進出可是用電量又非常的高然後每天都叫便當這表示說他們可能在裡面從事的是詐騙的行為那這個還是一樣如果管委會不願意提供給我們這個資訊因為管委會他是要保護用戶"},{"start":552.839,"end":574.204,"text":"他自己本身的一個隱秘性他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話會比較難一點但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看好像譬如說今天早上有多位委員有提到有一位在抖音上面在炫耀說他賺了300萬然後他只要賠7000多塊然後就可以不被收押禁建"},{"start":575.024,"end":598.243,"text":"事實上我們也在提供資訊的時候我們的刑事警察非常的認真院長有交代其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片要下架而且我們在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位姓廖的疑似嫌疑犯查緝盜案函請雲林地檢署來偵辦"},{"start":599.204,"end":621.853,"text":"是就是說警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話我們會很快不管是從網路或是其他實體實體的這個查緝到案的部分呢動作都會非常的快好那接下來我想要請問的就是所謂的這個跨部會的治安協作的部分了我想這個不是單一只有這個警政署或者是我們的內政部那還包含"},{"start":623.102,"end":651.662,"text":"移民署或者是甚至我們的這個抒發部的部分那我想這個跨部會的一個協作那不管是我們的這個公寓大廈管理條例當中我們是不是也要做有一些灰色地帶的一個修正來防堵這一類的所謂的這個詐騙的這個事件那另外還有包含就是我們這個對外籍人士的車手他們短期來台的動態其實掌握不足這個其實也會成為這個詐騙當中的另外一個我們"},{"start":652.322,"end":677.572,"text":"其實可以去關注的一個地方那另外呢就是所謂的這個高隱密性的所謂的機房的這個網路流量的分析其實這也是警政署這個地方或者書發部這個部分我們可能也要是要加強喔那我想呢在我們的這個詐騙集團其實他比較常利用剛剛我們講到的是豪宅去收受所謂的這個大筆的現金讓金流的部分其實掌握其實是"},{"start":679.153,"end":704.529,"text":"有時候它的金流是掌握的是更加的一個困難那我在這裡我想請教一下這個關於金管會的部分那金管會是不是我們請金管會那金管會是不是能夠將這個豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防治法的一個監控網那這個部分我們有這樣子的一個措施怎麼樣來盯這一類的漏洞"},{"start":705.009,"end":714.926,"text":"世保委員 如果它這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到這個金流如果它大額資金的流動本來就在我們洗錢房子的納管範圍之內"},{"start":716.604,"end":745.243,"text":"那另外再是科技的部分我想就是我剛剛提到這個豪宅內當中的這些機房其實它要去偵查的難度其實是比較高的那犯罪集團它常常會利用所謂的這個VPN這個多跳節點的一個隱密的一個網路的一個流量那書發部在這個部分有沒有透過類似的科技上的一個手段能夠協助發現及早發現類似這樣子一個高密隱密性的一個機房"},{"start":746.619,"end":759.764,"text":"報告委員 這個的確是個問題那偵測的方式剛剛講就從流量或者是甚至於可以偵測就是網路流量還有用電量那甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測"},{"start":761.008,"end":780.159,"text":"這個我們都有在持續關注但不過現在最大問題是第一個就是說尤其是他們當連上VPN到國外以後他們常常是真正發送那些大量的訊息或者這種詐騙的訊息是從國外發送回來所以國內出去的流量不大可是到國外就大量進來所以說有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定"},{"start":781.159,"end":808.699,"text":"另外一點就是說就算我們有懷疑還是需要有法規的依據去進去查驗所以我想在這裡面我講的技術上還是有點挑戰那在實行上的確需要跟各部會合作你說技術上其實目前還是需要有挑戰就是剛剛講就是說第一個就是說它的流量因為現在正好很多有方法嗎我們有找到一些方法嗎或者是我們可以複製國外他們怎麼樣來"},{"start":809.929,"end":832.158,"text":"因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去說真正的犯罪的server是在國外所以大量的流量是從國外進來這個都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的所以這個是當然我們可以跟ISP業者或者ISP業者合作看看能不能把這種流量把它找出來不過"},{"start":833.741,"end":857.421,"text":"是有機會可以去解決不過這目前還是有些挑戰就是好 這些挑戰我們什麼時候可以盡快的我們再回去研究一下但是我就覺得這個會有挑戰這委員的想法很好但是我想這個我們再回去再去分析也跟委員報告剛剛委員提到的這個流量部分其實在原來我們警方在處理這個"},{"start":859.442,"end":886.876,"text":"攔截違反著作權的信號OTTV那一塊已經處理過炸團也有這種情況但是炸團他本身進一步的把流量分散所以現在比較不容易處理但是這個機制警方其實一直持續有在掌握有跟電信公司在掌握當中我想打炸這個工作其實真的是從上到下我們每一個人其實都要特別去"},{"start":887.512,"end":906.783,"text":"去關注最後其實我還想要再強調一點我想許多的受害者應該是說被詐騙的這些受害者他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群比方說像老人家我想這個部分其實他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後可能"},{"start":907.703,"end":929.9,"text":"苦於不敢開口那也不敢去報警然後他們礙於顏面的關係但最後其實我們看到有許多就因此走上絕路那我想這些數字上遠遠高於資料的一個顯示那納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福的部分來填補這些社會的安全網的一個裂縫也是我們當務之急這個部分就是"},{"start":943.689,"end":944.49,"text":"好 謝謝各位請回答資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（14時30分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：院長午安。最近大家一直在關心詐騙的議題，關於豐原一家五口的悲劇，我想不是只有臺灣，詐騙是全世界都在關注的議題，其實在歐美也是一樣。根據統計，27%的受害者在接觸詐騙的同時，在第一個小時內受騙的人也非常多；另外，關於投資以及交友詐騙，這是長時期被養套殺，就是取得被害人的信任到巨額的金錢被騙，一年平均下來，這個還是2022年的統計，整個犯罪所得高達700億以上！","這一連串我們看到的詐騙問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的議題，去年行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了新打詐四法，我們從內容當中可以看到包含識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐以及懲詐這5個面向。我們看到最近其實也有破獲一些案件，當然也交出了一些成績單，但我想做的永遠不夠！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：光是根據今年7月打詐儀錶板當中的數據顯示，我就以一個地區來做例子說明，臺中的詐騙集團被破獲數量高居全國第一，被破獲的詐騙集團高達50團、432個人落網；受理的詐騙案件也是高居第二，所有的詐騙案件數高達2,245件；光是7月份造成的財損就已經高達了十一億多。我不曉得為什麼很多詐騙集團選擇在中部，關於查獲的數量，其實在臺中也是最多的，但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多，而造成被詐騙的金額跟財損下降，這個是兩相矛盾的現象，你們有沒有分析過背後的原因大概會是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我先報告一下，您提到臺中市最多，其實依我們警政署的資料，大概在六都裡面，第一個人口多、第二個交通便利，還有包括網路或者是其他通訊都非常好，而且因為在大樓裡面或是園區裡面的隱密性反而高，比在偏鄉來得好，所以被查獲到的次數就如同您看到的統計資料是比較多，這個是我們警政署同仁在統計時所得到的統計結果，所以我們也會特別留意，並把如何在都會地區處理詐騙集團作為最重要的一個關鍵。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長也點出了我接下來要詢問的，這個是媒體的報導，我想已經不只一次的報導，包含臺中的七期高級商辦，因為它的管制嚴格，反而成為博弈詐團的工作基地，其實這也都經過媒體多次的報導。在這樣子的報導當中我們可以看到，這些所謂的高級商辦、豪宅地區原本就管制嚴格，但是也很容易淪為詐騙集團的工作基地，就如同剛剛部長所說的，因為隱密性高，但是房屋的所有人，不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好，其實短期租賃容易讓他們……比方說他們可以用高於行情的一些租金，可能以月付押金的方式就可以租下這個豪宅，因為豪宅跟豪宅之間，其實鄰居的互動時間相對是減少的，所以他們的管理可能就產生了漏洞，當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候，他們就可以即刻逃離現場，這也是讓我們警方長期以來難以追查的原因之一。","第二個，我剛剛講到，因為詐騙集團通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃，他們是直接買下合法的掩護，因為他把它當成一個長期作案的基地，基於它的產權是合法的，相對來講，它的管委會或者它的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行通報，相對的來講，也保護了這些詐騙集團總部的安全，這個也變成我們看到像七期這樣高風險社區的租賃或者是購置行為，針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效管理的機制，以彌補這樣子的漏洞？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們了解這樣的狀況，你所提到的非常的正確，有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式，他並不是用真名，再來是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間，大家都互相不認識，除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪行為，這樣地方政府、警察才會去處理，所以現在中央跟地方就要來協助，如果發現它有異常，譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高，或是用電量非常高的話，我們會用這樣的方式來查找可能潛在的加害集團，這個都要長時間的監控，才有可能達到這樣的目的。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在著手進行了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：其實我們都會留意，但是最佳的方式還是透過，譬如說有人來檢舉，那我們會更快，假設詐騙集團都是比較年輕的，或是看起來很像是犯罪幫派，這樣警方才會特別留意。但是如果他打扮得很時髦、很登對或者看不出來的話，人家會以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶，所以還是要透過檢舉的方式會比較好，如果郭委員有這方面的資訊的話，您給我們，我們馬上就來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案，我們也擔心，因為豪宅也不是只有臺中有，其實各地都有豪宅。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是類似像這樣子的一個犯罪模式，我們也擔心它會讓全臺灣各地豪宅型或複合型的社區，形成一個巨大社區防線的破口，我想這樣子的模式有可能會複製到全臺灣各地，很多豪宅其實追求所謂的高隱私，就我剛剛講的，鄰居其實不互相往來，就會變成零監督的環境，再加上有時候租期短，租期短就更難掌握它到底是第幾手的轉租，所以人的流動，讓很多承租人的動態其實根本沒有人知道，這也是我們非常擔心的部分。","另外，詐騙集團就是利用這些漏洞，他們在北、中、南各地用VPN或者是多跳節點這些科技的手段，就會讓我們的警方更難掌握，這也是我們真的一直不斷的……我們說上有政策，下有對策，其實他們也不斷地在翻新他們的一些詐騙手法，我們很擔心這不是單一個案，而是目前持續在全臺灣擴散當中的狀況，如果再加上這個屋主自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員，如果他又是詐騙集團的成員，利用自家的豪宅來進行犯罪，那管委會跟物業管理應該要怎麼樣從外圍來做控管，這個我們有想過嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們可以從……不一定是警政系統，譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會，就是如果有出入人口複雜，或者是很奇怪，這整個月都沒有人進出，可是用電量又非常的高，然後每天都叫便當，這表示他們可能在裡面從事詐騙行為，這個還是一樣，如果管委會不願意提供給我們資訊，因為管委會要保護用戶的隱密性，他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話，會比較難一點，但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看，譬如說今天早上有多位委員提到，有一位在抖音上面炫耀說他賺了300萬，但他只要賠七千多塊，就可以不被收押禁見。事實上，在提供資訊的時候，刑事警察非常地認真，院長有交代，其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片下架，而且在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位廖姓的疑似嫌疑犯查緝到案，函請雲林地檢署偵辦。也就是警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話，我們會很快，不管是從網路或是其他實體查緝到案的部分，動作都會非常地快。"],["郭委員昱晴：接下來我想要請問的是關於跨部會的治安協作部分，我想這個不是單一只有警政署或者內政部，還包含移民署或者甚至是數發部，我想跨部會的協作部分，公寓大廈管理條例當中是不是也要做一些灰色地帶的修正？以防堵這一類的詐騙事件。另外，還包含對外籍人士車手短期來臺的動態掌握不足，這個其實也會成為詐騙當中另外一個我們可以去關注的地方。此外，高隱密性機房的網路流量分析，這是警政署或者數發部可能也要加強的。","我想詐騙集團比較常利用剛剛我們講到的豪宅去收受大筆的現金，讓金流的掌握其實有時候是更加困難，我在這裡想請教一下關於金管會的部分，金管會是不是能夠將豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防制法的監控網？這個部分你們有這樣子的措施來盯這一類的漏洞嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，如果這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款，那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到金流，如果它有大額資金的流動，本來就在洗錢防制的納管範圍之內。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外在科技的部分，就是我剛剛提到的，豪宅當中的這些機房，其實要去偵查的難度是比較高的，犯罪集團常常會利用所謂的VPN多跳節點的隱密網路流量，數發部在這個部分有沒有透過科技上的手段能夠協助及早發現類似這樣子的高隱密性機房？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個的確是個問題，但偵測的方式就如剛剛講的，可以偵測網路流量及用電量，甚至還有人說可以用電磁波去偵測，這個我們都有在持續關注，不過現在最大的問題是，當他們連上VPN到國外以後，常常真正發送那些大量訊息或者詐騙訊息是從國外發送回來的，所以國內出去的流量不大，可是到國外就大量進來，因此這有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定。另外，就算我們有懷疑，但還是需要有法規的依據才能進去查驗，所以在這裡面，我想技術上還是有點挑戰，在執行上的確需要跟各部會合作。"],["郭委員昱晴：你說技術上目前還是需要……"],["黃部長彥男：有挑戰，如剛剛講的，就是它的流量，因為現在這種……"],["郭委員昱晴：有方法嗎？你們有找到一些方法嗎？或者可以複製國外怎麼樣來……"],["黃部長彥男：因為他們現在都是用VPN連到國外去，所以真正犯罪的server是在國外，因此大量的流量是從國外進來，都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的，當然我們可以跟ISP業者合作，看看能不能把這種流量找出來，是有機會可以解決，不過目前還是有些挑戰。"],["郭委員昱晴：這些挑戰什麼時候可以儘快完成？"],["黃部長彥男：我們再回去研究一下，但是我覺得這個會有挑戰，委員的想法很好，但我想這個我們再回去分析。"],["卓院長榮泰：請陳主委補充。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到的流量部分，其實原來警方在處理攔截違反著作權的訊號，OTT 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辛苦了我是今天早上最後一位質詢今天要請教院長的事有關於我們打詐行動綱領2.0的執行成效首先還是要跟院長拜託因為大家知道現在全台灣詐騙案件的數量跟金額還是很高每一個被詐騙的家庭跟受害者常常會遭到家破人亡或者是被詐騙了以後"},{"start":66.557,"end":91.309,"text":"這個心神不寧 寢食難安或是甚至有這樣子後遺症就是被恐懼下的後遺症所造成的影響所以這邊還是要拜託院長大家一起來努力讓打詐更有成效讓詐騙的金額逐漸減少那今天我提供一些資料給院長跟院長報告從111年的7月核定了打詐綱領以後到了112年提到"},{"start":93.712,"end":103.941,"text":"我們有了打炸綱領1.5以及到這次的2.0版本我們看到我們的預算我們行政院的預算從112年的1.28億到現在112跟113年的"},{"start":112.558,"end":129.698,"text":"15億以及到現在114年到115年我們整個的經費已經高達了33億所以基本上我們是有給希望是有給行政院足夠的打炸的經費那已經從上一次的1.5到2.0已經增加了兩倍的經費"},{"start":130.799,"end":156.99,"text":"可是我們看到政府投入打詐的金額越高可是民眾被詐騙的金額也越高我們看到就是你們這次今天專案報告的資料也顯示從去年113年的8月到114年的7月其實也剛好滿週年警方共受理了19萬8千多件的詐欺案民眾的財損已經達到了一千"},{"start":160.174,"end":167.888,"text":"194億左右的這樣的金額等於國人一年的被詐騙的金額已經超過了千億所以本席要這邊跟"},{"start":169.523,"end":189.282,"text":"院長報告其實這個金額是有意義的代表現在詐騙的展值已經數字上實際數字上已經超過千億所以變成這樣的金額我們一定要好好來努力來把它給下降那人民對於政府打詐的民調來顯示我相信普遍的人民也是認為這個詐騙的越來越嚴重"},{"start":191.724,"end":212.361,"text":"而且問題有逐漸的惡化所以我要來請教也要跟院長報告本席認為打詐應該有六個字應該要來做才能有效的來降低詐騙就是應該要嚴查 嚴辦以及重罰院長您支持我這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":214.778,"end":221.873,"text":"我覺得對於這個猖獗的犯罪的行為公權力一定要張揚出來才能夠保障人民的安全所以"},{"start":223.124,"end":249.733,"text":"嚴查嚴辦這當然是要的重罰的部分我們要經過修法來讓他的整個罰則跟他所受到的傷害以及財產的損失要成相當的比例好謝謝謝謝院長可是首先我要先跟您報告有關於審計部所提出來的資料審計部裡面有提到似乎法官在過去的量刑有過輕導致車手繳回不罰所得後就輕輕放下"},{"start":250.313,"end":270.551,"text":"根據審計部的報告我不知道院長有沒有看過從108年到113年截至到113年8月底法院依照刑法第339條之四加重詐欺罪科處的刑期大多是在3年以下處3年以上的刑期只有1%所以"},{"start":273.733,"end":294.378,"text":"這樣子我覺得會讓人民尤其省紀部這邊也特別提到說會不會有認為法院侵犯的一個狀況其實就我跟很多在民間一起努力在打詐的一些好朋友來他們所反映給我的他們說基本上很多詐騙的人他們詐騙完以後"},{"start":295.765,"end":319.763,"text":"他們不是判的是三年以上他們判三年以上不到1%他們很多都是判六個月以下然後都在服勞動服務他們怎麼做勞動服務他們就是在法院外面在掃地所以我這邊是不是可以請院長可以幫我做一個統計資料到底詐騙的人他們所過去"},{"start":320.323,"end":344.822,"text":"所判的刑責到底是不是像審計部說的都是輕判或甚至有些都是判六個月以下都是在做勞動服務的這個資料是不是可以提供本席來做參考據統計出來的數字跟太陽確實是如此所以我們經過層層的修法包括打炸釋法我們也希望做第一個加重它的罰則那未來我們覺得還不足我們還要啟動新的修法程序請部長答覆"},{"start":347.045,"end":360.08,"text":"簡單說明 做一個補充那的確那個是不是判得太輕剛才委員有提到說大部分都判六個月以下在法院外面在掃地做勞動分務其實這個要跟委員報告 事實上那個"},{"start":360.78,"end":377.771,"text":"因為絕大部分的那個網路電信詐欺的絕大部分案件都是車手跟尤其是人頭的一個提供人頭賬戶當然這個刑度是低但是我們要處罰就是詐團那部分那現在我們有做一個這個的確是有要回應的話其實我們有一個"},{"start":378.311,"end":405.882,"text":"要求我們依照詐偽條第50條來做一個要求檢查機關具體求刑那抬高檢署他也有提供一個具體求刑的一個標準你說的是刑事案件妥適量刑刑法嗎剛剛其他委員有提出來的對不對這個就是我們有做現有的這樣處理那剛才院長有提到就是要修法因為我們認為高額詐欺還要再加強另外我們跟司法因為這就是法官判的"},{"start":406.542,"end":428.5,"text":"那所以我們跟司法院我們也就跟他做一個協調就是說我們提出我們的一個良心的一個標準給司法院做一個調整良心的一個參考所以審計部提出來報告認為說判刑有稍微過輕事實上應該是有這樣的情形希望說未來還是可以提供本席這樣的資料到底詐騙犯他們所判刑的大概"},{"start":429.241,"end":457.635,"text":"大多數的比例是判多久其實還是要提供這樣的資料可以嗎第二個就是因為省紀部提出這樣的資訊說判刑過低所以再犯比例是相當的高我問了很多基層在查詐欺的警員跟我分享他說每次抓到詐欺犯都是同一批人都是同樣的人我請教院長跟部長你認為這些詐騙犯的再犯比例有多高"},{"start":458.651,"end":476.83,"text":"這部分我們再做一個數據再一個我收到的資料我想說整個是辦案不立這個沒有我們現在辦案那個我收到的資料那個再犯比例其實超過八成那這個詳細的數字我要想請部長你好好來統計一下所以我希望說"},{"start":478.65,"end":504.175,"text":"剛剛我們有提到所以我說在量刑的部分一定要是不是有需要重罰所以我們的刑事案件這個妥適量刑罰這個部分我也希望說是不是可以盡速來提供立法的一個動作好 這次我們再來提供另外其實跟我們做一個補充其實現在那個假釋緩刑的假釋那一部分我們就是在詐謀條例出犯我們就到刑期要執行三分之二才會假釋但是我們這三萬的話就不假釋了"},{"start":506.82,"end":522.054,"text":"好 OK 那我們進下一個我們看一個剛剛很多委員給院長看的影片我們簡單快速看一下300萬是什麼意思就是這台有一個財損局到我口袋中的500萬他只幫你扣7213元我跟各位講為什麼因為錢花完了你這樣可能扣到又不多啊"},{"start":534.77,"end":540.801,"text":"像我們這種人如果你今天不和解不賠錢給受愛人的話假設就是賠那麼好過通常都會關到九成"},{"start":548.766,"end":576.652,"text":"好謝謝謝謝好謝謝院長跟部長那我相信你們剛剛已經看過這影片看過我多次了那我的問題跟其他委員的問題可能不太一樣這裡面提到了很多的元素第一個是被害人的財損的金額是300萬那其實剛剛這裡面我覺得他這個影片是有設計過的就是低於這個嚴重財閥的500萬之內那到底被害者的損失金額多少錢這個"},{"start":578.766,"end":589.829,"text":"沒有一個準確的一個金額可是他裡面提到了幾個重點就是說他裡面的教學影片要求車手或是詐騙集團把詐騙的金額給花掉花到"},{"start":590.896,"end":618.866,"text":"他最後能查到的金流只有七千兩百一十三萬這就認定是他的這個犯罪所得第二個重點他為了要尋求保釋所以他就是跟法官請求說那法官如果我把除了我自己的犯罪所得以外我再多繳一點錢給這些被害人是否就可以申請假釋或檢除其刑那我想要請教針對這樣子的重點部長跟院長你們要如何來回應這些詐騙"},{"start":620.346,"end":640.043,"text":"詐騙的車手已經在網路上宣傳教這些其他可能未來潛在的車手這樣的行為我覺得這是非常嚴重的一個問題我認為這個影片真的是很糟糕他那個車手詐騙金額就是剛才文友提到就是規避那個詐偽條例43條的高額詐欺的徒刑"},{"start":640.643,"end":666.763,"text":"那現在但是他如果說第三百萬還是回到刑法339條就是加重詐欺那是一年以上七年以下那這部分這個我們在位其實這個三百萬也是金額蠻高我們會就具體的修行那另外車手把錢花掉剩下7213這就剛才委員幾位委員有提到就是說刑事大法庭裡面提採證的說法就是個人的報酬說而不是整個被害人損害說"},{"start":667.563,"end":694.583,"text":"那這部分我們有做一個修法的修正草案還有那個500萬的規避的等等那個我們另外再做修法的一個所以我還要請教另外那個和解什麼假釋那一陣子剛才有跟委員報告過了詐偽條例出犯你一定要到三分之二才有辦法合乎假釋的門檻不一定要給他假釋另外那個有累犯的話他委員關心有累犯這部分我們要達四分之三如果第三次犯的話我們就"},{"start":695.504,"end":717.719,"text":"就完全沒有假釋的機會了所以我們其實既然我們在審核這些兆頭的話我們還是說嚴加審核那這部分我想這個影片這個是一個教學影片就像部長講的一件事跟委員報告我們剛剛看到影片我跟部長在研究如果我們現在是我們已經可以將它落地的四大平台"},{"start":718.579,"end":743.672,"text":"Meta、IG、Google、YouTube乃至Trade我們都可以要求它可是剛剛看的是TikTok就是無法落地不讓我們管理所以這個平台絕對是有它的問題如果是其他平台我們馬上就可以有著力點可以出去了其實院長跟部長可以去坊間查問一下大概車手所拿到的報酬大概是犯罪所得的百分之多少絕對不會像他們講的這麼低"},{"start":744.973,"end":772.841,"text":"其實有時候車手他嘴巴講的是這麼低未來他可能還會跟詐騙集團使用虛擬貨幣的方式來去交錢的這樣的問題所以我們才說還有很多相關的法令要來實施比如說虛擬貨幣專法等等的也希望院長跟部長來加強一下再來我要講的特別實踐的關係我特別要講的就是有關於我們現在第一線很辛苦的不管是警察同仁在抓車手或抓詐騙集團的部分"},{"start":773.641,"end":790.832,"text":"其實或是在做監聽等等這樣的工作其實都非常的辛苦那其實現在其實內政部已經有提出一個防制詐欺犯罪有功人員檢舉獎勵辦法等等這樣的問題其實是可以讓我們第一線的執行人員在遇到這麼危險的這些狀態的時候"},{"start":792.233,"end":819.033,"text":"是有一個講仇的機制那我現在聽說這個草案還在行政院核准當中那是不是應該要快速來趕快來通過讓我們基層的警察同仁或是在執勤的人員有一個更強力的這個獎勵方式讓他們來執勤是 因為我知道內政部有提出這樣一個草案出來那我也是看到這樣的內容我覺得讓他更精進所以我今天在早上報告的時候"},{"start":819.713,"end":847.276,"text":"我一直強調對這些第一線的工作夥伴給予更多的感謝跟鼓勵我想我的用意也在這裡那我們會加速 我請內政部說明是 委員我們除了法治化以外其實我們七月開始的時候呢已經有這些獎勵金的核發原則啦那按照比例現在大概是發給兩千到一萬元左右所以就要拜託部長把這個草案的內容跟你現在實際有發放的金額做一個對比這已經匯整各部會的意見目前正在審議中 跟委員報告"},{"start":848.432,"end":866.266,"text":"最後我還是要拜託其實在詐騙體團他們有一個手法很單純他們都會設立一個群組像剛剛我們院長講的他們會設立一個群組不管是用LINE FB的群組他們會設立一個聊天群當車手被抓的時候他們就會把這個車手在這個聊天群裡面剔除掉"},{"start":866.866,"end":896.386,"text":"那所以很重要的一個機制就是我們是不是可以溯源到我們這些的平台業者都在國外很多在國外的業者他們願不願意提供給我們相關他們的聊天紀錄等等這些資料那我就我了解的是他們在取得的部分是有困難的請問是這樣嗎所以我要問院長跟部長的是我們跨國的合作的進度到底是如何以及我們相關的很多的我們跟這些平台業者我們到底拿不拿到這些他們的聊天紀錄等等這樣的資料是不是有遇到相關的一個"},{"start":897.466,"end":914.694,"text":"困難等等這些問題那我們有沒有一些明確的時間表讓我們可以跟這些平台業者來做一個很好的溝通是不是可以請部長院長來是 鮑委員是這樣子我們在去年一整年當中還陸續到包括日本去尋求包括LINE或者是Meta這些他們"},{"start":915.214,"end":939.551,"text":"是不是有拿不到資料的問題做決策的人告訴我們說如果台灣要實施這個實名制要落地的時候他們能不能夠做到所以目前為止我們按照這樣子的程度跟數位部一起來努力慢慢再做到了希望用實名制的方式來落實這是第一點然後第二個就是有關那個網路廣告平台的部分也是一樣你必須要落實你沒有落實的話用很快的速度的話"},{"start":953.956,"end":955.141,"text":"好 謝謝張志倫委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2239,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（12時41分）謝謝韓院長。各位委員、各位官員，大家午安，大家辛苦了！有請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：卓院長好，辛苦了！我是今天早上最後一位質詢的。今天要請教院長有關打詐行動綱領2.0的執行成效，首先還是要跟院長拜託，因為大家知道現在全臺灣詐騙案件的數量跟金額還是很高，每一個被詐騙的家庭跟受害者常常家破人亡，或者被詐騙了以後，心神不寧、寢食難安，甚至有後遺症，就是恐懼下產生後遺症造成影響，所以還是要拜託院長，大家一起來努力，讓打詐更有成效，讓詐騙金額逐漸減少。","今天我提供一些資料給院長，跟院長報告，從111年7月核定打詐綱領以後，到112年我們有了打詐綱領1.5，以及到這次的2.0版本，我們看到行政院的預算從112年的1.28億到112跟113年的15億，以及現在的114年到115年，整個經費已經高達33億。基本上，我們希望給行政院足夠的打詐經費，從上一次的1.5到2.0，已經增加了兩倍的經費。可是我們看到政府投入打詐的金額越高，民眾被詐騙的金額也越高，今天專案報告的資料也顯示，從去（113）年8月到114年7月，其實也剛好滿周年，警方共受理了十九萬八千多件詐欺案，民眾的財損已經達到了1,194億左右，等於國人一年被詐騙的金額已經超過了千億。","本席要在這邊跟院長報告，其實這個金額是有意義的，代表現在詐騙產值的實際數字已經超過千億，我們一定要好好努力把這樣的金額下降。據人民對於政府打詐的民調顯示，我相信人民普遍也認為詐騙越來越嚴重而且問題逐漸惡化，所以我要來請教，也要跟院長報告。本席認為打詐有六個字應該要做，才能有效降低詐騙，就是應該要「嚴查」、「嚴辦」以及「重罰」，院長支持我這樣的說法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得對於猖獗的犯罪行為，公權力一定要張揚出來，才能夠保障人民的安全，所以嚴查、嚴辦當然是要的。至於重罰的部分，我們要經過修法讓整個罰則、所受到的傷害以及財產損失要成相當的比例。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長。可是首先我要跟您報告有關於審計部所提出來的資料，審計部的報告裡面提到，法官過去的量刑似乎有過輕的狀況，導致車手繳回不法所得後就輕輕放下。根據審計部的報告，我不知道院長有沒有看過，從108年截至113年8月底，法院依照刑法第三百三十九條之四加重詐欺罪科處的刑期大多是在三年以下，科處三年以上刑期的只有1%，尤其審計部在這邊也特別提到這樣子會不會讓人民認為法院有輕判的狀況。就很多在民間一起努力打詐的好朋友所反映給我的，他們說基本上很多詐騙的人詐騙完以後，並不是被判三年以上，判三年以上的不到1%，他們很多都是判六個月以下，然後都在服勞動服務，他們怎麼做勞動服務呢？他們就是在法院外面掃地，所以我是不是可以請院長幫我做一份統計資料，看看詐騙的人過去所判的刑責到底是不是像審計部說的都是輕判，或甚至有些都是判六個月以下、都是在做勞動服務？這份資料是不是可以提供給本席參考？"],["卓院長榮泰：據統計出來的數字跟態樣確實是如此，所以我們經過層層的修法，包括打詐四法，我們也希望第一個加重它的罰則，未來我們覺得還不足，我們還要啟動新的修法程序，我請部長答復。"],["張委員智倫：請簡單說明，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我來補充說明，關於是不是判得太輕，剛才委員有提到大部分都判六個月以下……"],["張委員智倫：對啊，在法院外面掃地做勞動服務嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要跟委員報告，事實上，因為絕大部分的網路電信詐欺案件都是透過車手及提供人頭帳戶，當然這個刑度是低，但是我們要處罰的是詐團那一部分。如果要回應的話，其實我們有一個要求，也就是依據詐危條例第五十條來要求檢察機關具體求刑，臺高檢署也有提供具體求刑的標準，另外……"],["張委員智倫：你說的是刑事案件妥適量刑法嗎？剛剛其他委員有提出來了對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是我們有做現有的處理，剛才院長有提到要修法，因為我們認為高額詐欺還要再加強。另外我們也有跟司法院協調，因為這就是法官判的，所以我們也跟司法院協調，就是由我們提出量刑標準供司法院做為調整量刑的參考。"],["張委員智倫：審計部提出來的報告認為判刑稍微過輕，事實上應該是有這樣的情形，希望未來還是可以提供給本席這樣的資料，到底詐騙犯所判刑的大多數比率是判多久，還是要提供這樣的資料可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，這個我們再提供。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，就是因為審計部提出這樣的資訊說判刑過低，所以再犯比率相當高，我問了很多基層在查詐欺的警員，他們跟我分享，他說每次抓到詐欺犯都是同一批人、都是同樣的人，我請教院長跟部長，你認為這些詐騙犯的再犯比率有多高？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再做一個數據和資料……"],["張委員智倫：我收到的資料……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是針對辦案不力的部分，這個沒有！我們現在辦案的部分也有詐團……"],["張委員智倫：再犯比率其實超過八成，詳細的數字我想請部長好好統計一下。剛剛我們有提到在量刑的部分是不是有需要重罰？所以我也希望刑事案件妥適量刑法是不是可以儘速立法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來提供。另外做一個補充，其實現在針對假釋的部分，我們根據詐危條例，初犯刑期要執行三分之二才會假釋，沒有執行三分之二就不假釋了。"],["張委員智倫：OK，現在我們來看一個剛剛很多委員給院長看的影片，我們簡單快速看一下。","（播放影片）"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長跟部長。我相信你們應該看過這個影片很多次了，我的問題跟其他委員的問題可能不太一樣，這裡面提到了很多的元素：第一個是被害人的財損金額是300萬，其實我覺得這個影片是有設計過的，就是低於嚴重裁罰的500萬之內，到底被害者的損失金額是多少錢，這沒有一個準確的金額，可是這教學影片裡面提到了幾個重點，首先，它要求車手或是詐騙集團把詐騙的錢花掉，花到最後能查到的金額只有7,213塊，這就是被認定的犯罪所得。","第二個重點，為了要尋求保釋，所以他就跟法官請求說：如果把除了我自己的犯罪所得以外，我再多繳一點錢給這些被害人，是否就可以聲請假釋或減除其刑？我想要請教，針對這樣的重點，部長跟院長要如何來回應這些詐騙集團已經在網路上宣傳、教導這些未來可能、潛在的車手這樣的行為？我覺得這是一個非常嚴重的問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為這個影片真的很糟糕，裡面的車手詐騙金額就是剛才委員提到的，就是要規避詐危條例第四十三條高額詐欺的徒刑；現在如果是低於300萬還是會回到刑法第三百三十九條，就是加重詐欺，那是處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑；就詐危的部分，其實詐騙金額300萬也是滿高的，我們會就具體來求刑。","另外，車手把錢花掉剩下7,213塊的部分，剛才有幾位委員提到，刑事大法庭採用的說法，認為這是個人的報酬說，而不是整個被害人損害說，這部分我們有做一個修法的修正草案；還有，關於500萬的規避等等，這部分我們會另外做一個修法……"],["張委員智倫：所以我要請教……"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外什麼和解、假釋等等的，剛才有跟委員報告過了，依詐危條例，若是初犯，一定要到三分之二才有辦法合乎假釋的門檻，而且也不一定要給他假釋。再來，若有累犯的話，就是委員關心的，這部分則是要達到四分之三；如果第三次犯的話，就完全沒有假釋的機會了，所以其實是這樣的，我們在審核這些詐團……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們還是會嚴加審核，而這是一個教學影片……"],["張委員智倫：對，就像部長講的，我們希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：幾件事情跟委員報告，剛剛看到的那個影片，我也跟部長在研究，如果是現在我們已經可以將它落地的四大平臺，即Meta、IG、Google以及YouTube，乃至於Threads，我們都可以要求它，而剛剛看的是TikTok，就無法落地，不讓我們管理，所以這個平臺絕對有它的問題，如果是其他平臺，我們馬上就有著力點可以出去了。"],["張委員智倫：對，其實院長跟部長可以去坊間查問一下，車手所拿到的報酬大概是犯罪所得的百分之多少，絕對不會像他們講的這麼低，有時候車手嘴巴講的這麼低，但未來還是有可能跟詐騙集團以使用虛擬貨幣的方式來交錢，還有這樣的問題存在，所以我們才說還有很多相關的法令要來實施，比如說虛擬貨幣專法等等，也希望院長跟部長來加強一下。","時間的關係，我要特別講的是，現在第一線的人員很辛苦，不管是警察同仁在抓車手或抓詐騙集團的部分，或是後面在做監聽等等這樣的工作的人員都非常辛苦，現在內政部已經提出一個防制詐欺犯罪有功人員檢舉獎勵辦法等等，其實是可以讓我們第一線執勤人員在遇到危險狀態的時候，是有一個獎酬的機制，我聽說這個草案還在行政院核准當中，是不是應該要趕快來通過，讓我們基層的警察同仁或是在執勤的人員，有一個更強力的獎勵方式，讓他們來執勤？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我知道內政部有提出這樣一個草案出來，看到這樣的內容後，我覺得應讓它更精進，所以今天早上報告的時候我一直強調，對於這些第一線的工作夥伴應給予更多的感謝跟鼓勵，我想我的用意也在這裡，我們會加速，接著我請內政部說明。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我們除了法制化以外，其實我們從7月開始已經有這些獎勵金的核發原則，按照比例，現在大概是發給2,000到1萬元。"],["張委員智倫：好，拜託部長把這個草案的內容跟你現在實際有發放的金額做一個對比，讓我們知道這個草案……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這已經彙整各部會的意見，目前正在審議中。"],["張委員智倫：好。最後我還是要拜託，其實詐騙集團他們有一個很單純的手法，就像剛剛院長講的，他們會設立一個群組，不管是用LINE、FB的群組，他們會設立一個聊天群，當車手被抓的時候，他們就會把這個車手從這個聊天群裡面剔除掉。所以有一個很重要的機制，就是我們是不是可以溯源到這些平臺業者？有很多業者都是在國外，他們願不願意提供我們這些相關的聊天紀錄等資料？就我的了解，要向他們取得這些部分是有困難的，請問是這樣嗎？所以我要問院長跟部長，我們跨國合作的進度到底是如何？還有我們跟這些平臺業者到底拿不拿得到這些聊天紀錄等資料，是不是有遇到相關的困難等問題？我們有沒有一個明確的時間表讓我們可以跟這些平臺業者來做一個很好的溝通？部長、院長，是不是有拿不到資料的問題？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在去年一整年當中陸續到日本去請LINE、Meta這些平臺能夠做決策的人告訴我們，如果臺灣要實施這個實名制，要落地的時候，他們能不能夠做到。到目前為止，我們按照這樣子的時程跟數位部一起來努力，有慢慢在做到了，希望用實名制的方式來落實，這是第一點。第二個，有關網路廣告平臺的部分也是一樣，你必須要落實，如果你沒有用很快的速度來落實的話，這些東西詐騙集團一下子就解決了，就沒辦法處理。"],["張委員智倫：你們有沒有一個時程表？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在開始做了。"],["劉部長世芳：其實在剛剛的報告裡面就有了，我們再把詳細的資料送給委員參考。"],["卓院長榮泰：會更廣泛、更有效地來做，已經在做了。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長、部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，我們上午會議進行到此為止，下午2點30分繼續開會。再一次呼籲各黨團能夠敦促所有委員在下午儘量多多參與專案報告，也再一次謝謝臺中選區的黃健豪委員從早上一直陪到現在參與專案報告會議，非常感謝。","我們現在休息，下午2點半繼續開會，謝謝。","休息（12時57分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":[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張志倫委員請準備主席 在場委員先進列席的政務機關上官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長 法務部金管會備詢"},{"start":36.443,"end":60.291,"text":"總委員好院長好 部長好 主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁"},{"start":63.102,"end":89.038,"text":"抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容好 香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A 騙子太多還是B 傻子太多院長你覺得呢"},{"start":91.124,"end":107.155,"text":"我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗"},{"start":109.905,"end":126.674,"text":"那個犯罪的類型很多應該不限於這兩種吧不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼"},{"start":130.632,"end":155.669,"text":"直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷要偷鈔票偷金銀珠寶還要囂張還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤而且以前要到你身上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個"},{"start":156.403,"end":168.306,"text":"最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館"},{"start":170,"end":191.547,"text":"是 當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好 那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週才會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果調查檢報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢"},{"start":192.642,"end":213.311,"text":"第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該瞭解那調查局辦了結果裁罰30萬速發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因民眾什麼感覺"},{"start":214.668,"end":234.66,"text":"不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡"},{"start":235.731,"end":257.301,"text":"那滑環呢?以地方開放支付來講是多少?五萬到五百萬啊相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼?院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺?因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分?後面這個部分"},{"start":258.121,"end":259.702,"text":"像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰 是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定"},{"start":277.442,"end":305.105,"text":"這一定要判決 一定要判決 占卜確定院長 了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢 很多民眾的抱怨哎呀 胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十歲 要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先 後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢"},{"start":306.075,"end":333.673,"text":"行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是呢我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC"},{"start":334.253,"end":352.609,"text":"甚至呢 你是電子支付業者 這是金管會管的也要KYC KYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理 大概要很難用人頭辦 為什麼因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字 以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個"},{"start":353.63,"end":381.826,"text":"為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭啊就會叫他用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶"},{"start":382.964,"end":411.352,"text":"沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修法來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請"},{"start":414.92,"end":441.458,"text":"時間暫停 老闆請院長 因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管 法務部要罰但是法要修 修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的"},{"start":443.541,"end":467.874,"text":"沒有 很多部會一起處管但是主責是內政部有內政部 法務部 還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部哪個部要趕快提出 炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案"},{"start":469.115,"end":498.198,"text":"報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第8條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好 那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是住發部管的第三方支付我們現在納管的 是的好 那我們來看一下"},{"start":499.143,"end":518.143,"text":"當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒"},{"start":519.5,"end":538.027,"text":"因此怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心"},{"start":538.752,"end":567.537,"text":"那我要告訴院長 問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構 網路廣告平台第三方住業者 電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所得秘密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說 我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被什麼 被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有"},{"start":568.26,"end":591.606,"text":"公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張"},{"start":593.373,"end":619.707,"text":"公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案165專線"},{"start":622.742,"end":640.118,"text":"部長 劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好 院長要不要支持他們"},{"start":641.144,"end":662.243,"text":"我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個"},{"start":667.404,"end":694.796,"text":"條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對"},{"start":696.072,"end":707.032,"text":"要抱持這一橫嗎報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明新政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他"},{"start":708.171,"end":726.131,"text":"第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化"},{"start":727.489,"end":755.754,"text":"但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行的共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局的已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的 我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好 院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前"},{"start":756.618,"end":776.413,"text":"完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握"},{"start":777.653,"end":798.905,"text":"我們會就內容來討論我們來研擬我是因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全學部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院"},{"start":799.645,"end":824.682,"text":"根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂俗稱國民法官法"},{"start":825.262,"end":854.254,"text":"他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了"},{"start":854.864,"end":878.304,"text":"有關於競速推動對不起 上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員 這個建議很寶貴 謝謝好"},{"start":881.259,"end":903.455,"text":"最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速"},{"start":909.161,"end":926.515,"text":"推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法制化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併真相院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的言語我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長謝謝宗嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝主委長相關部會首長的備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2173,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時25分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、法務部、金管會備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、部長好、主委好。今天上午許多委員的質詢都關切國人最痛恨的打詐，這也是今天院長的專報，就這麼巧，在前幾天有一個「2025年亞洲詐騙報告」，當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區，院長，你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁？猜猜看。"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，我倒沒有看到這個內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁，但是臺灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙，所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕，因為很多人都有類似的經驗，結果中國的網路也不遑多讓，他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A.騙子太多，還是B.傻子太多？院長，你覺得呢？我想這是網路上以一種笑謔的方式來進行，但是我們嚴肅來看待。請教法務部鄭部長，就您的經驗，你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人疏於防範他的財物，還是因為贓物容易脫手變現，引發了竊盜？"],["鄭部長銘謙：犯罪的類型很多，應該也不限於這兩種。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不限於這兩種，但是有人說，鼓勵竊盜是因為贓物很好脫手，如果贓物賣不掉，他偷了也沒用。請教彭主委，你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼？直接提示啦！因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付，虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣，以前你偷要偷鈔票、偷金銀珠寶，還要銷贓、還要變現，現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤，而且以前要到你身旁才能扒，現在不用，你直接在網路上按個鍵，在網路上就交易了，這就是詐騙的原因。最近我們看到幾件事情，第一個，臺灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的公會，彭主委，這是不是一個正面的訊息？雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，任何一個公會它有自律，當然會比沒有公會好很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外也要請部長看一下，上週財委會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的臨櫃阻詐跟他們與警方配合辦案的情況，結果調查局的簡報說，假三支可以詐騙很多錢。我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢，第三方支付洗錢高達50億，結果裁罰30萬，民眾說太輕了。院長，你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺，洗錢洗那麼多，那個案子部長應該了解，那是調查局辦的，結果數發部裁罰30萬，院長，你覺得是什麼原因呢？民眾有什麼感覺呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：不成比例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，不成比例，但是往往我們忽略一點，因為我們目前看到的洗錢防制法，不管是第八條還是第十三條，它都是行政罰，都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者，在它的刑事司法審理之前，行政機關先祭出的罰鍰。以第三方支付來講，罰鍰是多少？5萬到500萬啊！相較洗錢的金額當然是不成比例，為什麼？院長，我要跟您說明，我們在宣傳打詐的時候為什麼民眾還是有這樣的錯覺？因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政罰鍰，事實上最重要的是哪一個部分？是後面這個部分，是洗錢防制法第二條、第十九條跟第二十條，第十九條針對犯罪所得、第二十條針對無合理來源，可以處三年以上十年以下，或者六個月以上五年以下有期徒刑，部長，是不是這樣子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：像這樣一個刑罰的處罰，是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一定要判決才能夠確定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以院長了解原因了沒有？我聽了很多委員的質詢、很多民眾的抱怨，都說判太輕了，為什麼認為判太輕？洗錢50億才罰50萬。其實這是一個誤解，因為行政裁罰先，後面的司法審理、刑罰在後，但是目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠？院長，你的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：刑度應該調整合理，而且它的判決時間也應該速審速決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於司法院的判決，我們尊重也期待，但儘管如此，行政院還是可以有所作為。舉例來講，我曾經問過彭主委類似的問題，其實詐團都利用人頭去開戶，但是現在的銀行、金融機構，不管你是證券戶要開交割戶，到銀行要KYC，銀行本身自然人開戶也要KYC，甚至你是電子支付業者，這是金管會管的，也要KYC，KYC就是認識你的客戶，只要你臨櫃辦理，大概很難用人頭辦，為什麼？因為有一個叫財金資訊公司的，如果你拿人頭來辦，他只要一查，你這個名字以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個，為什麼行動電話不同？因為詐團用人頭，就會叫他用同一支行動電話，比較好控制，因此跟原來那個人頭留存的電話號碼就不一樣了，就抓到了。但是目前第三方支付業者跟虛幣交易所沒有被這樣要求，在開戶的時候，沒有辦法透過財金資訊公司去自行查核，因為財金資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶，比如說告訴鍾佳濱，我發一個OTP給你，你是不是來開戶？他沒有這個查核，院長了解了嗎？所以可不可以請彭主委說明，為什麼你認為財金資訊公司沒有辦法對於三支跟虛幣交易所進行這樣的照會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是這一次打詐專法在檢討、修法的時候，比如說我們有一個同業照會機制，這很重要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為他不同業，所以我們這次也提出了修法建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，同業照會，那要誰來修法？請劉世芳部長跟黃彥男部長，因為這就是他們的業務了。時間暫停。"],["主席：麻煩請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長，因為打詐非常繁瑣，希望透過您來聽我們質詢，了解到各部會的合作很重要。剛剛金管會要管，法務部要罰，但是法要修，修哪一個法？修詐欺犯罪危害防制條例，這個是哪個部會主管的？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，是很多部會一起主管，要看……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是主責的是內政部。"],["劉部長世芳：有內政部、法務部還有金管會，都有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會提出要修法，請問院長，您覺得哪個部會要趕快提出來？哪個部會要趕快提出詐防條例的修法？要修改第八條啊！要把其中的「金融機構及提供虛擬資產服務之事業或人員」也納入照會的機制，是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實詐防條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會討論，即現在的立法院內政委員會，而您所提到的第八條，如果要增刪下去的話，我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，為什麼請黃部長來？因為剛剛講到，目前洗錢最多的就是假冒第三方支付業者的，黃部長，是不是？第三方支付是不是數發部管的？"],["黃部長彥男：對，第三方支付現在是我們納管的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。那我們來看一下，當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄、無法追回，我們有很多的動作要做，政府有在執行防詐措施，但是在第一線，不管是數發部在監看網路網頁的人，還是內政部警政署的第一線員警，他們往往要公文的層層決行，因此怕錯過時效。以基層來講，如果沒有獎勵，他幹嘛做那麼多的事情？另外，公務人員執行這些，請問數發部黃部長，有沒有遇過同仁跟你說，當他們要執行這些業務的時候，也擔心被業者提告，有沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：難免會有這樣的擔心。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我要告訴院長問題出在哪裡，詐防條例第三十八條規定，當我們要協助打詐的時候，這些金融機構、網路廣告平臺業者、第三方支付業者、電商業者可以有一個免責條款，免除它業務上應守的秘密，它來配合檢警調偵辦，會有一個免責條款，所以業者可以說：我提供給警方辦，我不用擔心被客戶告，因為有這個免責條款。但是公務員沒有，公務員沒有類似的設計。以數發部來講，它主管的業務當中，因為是管網路，如果它配合辦案，萬一被這些平臺業者告，公務員會受不了。院長要不要支持我們透過修法，也讓公務員有這個機制，讓他可以配合檢警調進行詐騙的防詐、堵詐以及相關的偵辦作為？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一向主張公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利跟自己業務的時候，要用積極的方向來做，如果他願意積極來做一些事情，我們再課以他重責，顯然是不宜的，所以如何朝這個方向來做，我們從這裡做合理的調整，我覺得是好的辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就請指示行政院要有相關的免責保障。其次，目前防制詐騙，基層員警很重要，其中有一個叫做165專線。劉部長，這是一個任務編組，還是一個常態編制？"],["劉部長世芳：現在是一個任務編組。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，這些人的記功、嘉獎及各種敘獎都要回到原機關辦理，所以我們希望行政院協助這些辦案有功人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵，好不好？院長要不要支持他們？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請內政部整合出來……"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：到底這個要怎麼樣來處理，對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵，我們願意朝這個方向即刻來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝院長的肯定。我們今天看這個表很多次了，行政院認為打詐有成，趨勢是往下，沒有錯，我們看到這條紅線是詐騙金額，條塊則是詐騙的案件量。我們注意到在114年2月非常有效、急速下降，那個時候是因為社群網路平臺實施了廣告實名制，這也是因為法令通過之後，數發部動手了，詐團受到阻礙，但是他馬上又找到對策，所以案件又上升了。雖然長期看趨勢是下滑，但是有高有低，就看我們有沒有持續提出有效的防詐作為。院長，你說對不對？要不要持之以恆嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：有關這個圖表，每一週行政院政務委員的政務會議，林明昕政委每個禮拜都會提出一個數字，我只要求他：第一個、不能往上升，這要努力。再來，平緩往下降……"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解，您剛剛說了很多次，我的意思是不能只靠一招一式，因為詐團的手法千變萬化，要持之以恆，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以持之以恆要怎麼辦？現在刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防制中心，要推動組織法制化，但是要推動組織法制化在行政院要先形成共識，取得相關主管機關的同意。請問劉部長，內政部刑事警察局的這個中心是不是已經得到行政院內部的同意了？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我們在討論的過程當中，包括行政院政務委員也覺得把165法制化是一個非常可行的方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法制化之後，行政院還要送到考試院，院長是不是可以承諾9月底之前完成兩院的會銜，把這個法制化工作完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我要跟內政部好好談。法制化的功用是在提升整體的效率跟對所有第一線工作同仁在工作上的尊重，如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標，我才願意這樣考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以9月底前有沒有把握？因為你們……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會就內容來討論。"],["劉部長世芳：我們來研擬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，因為已經到院長辦公室了、到行政院了，我們希望後續能夠……我昨天也問過考試院、銓敘部，他們也是全力支持，但是為什麼我會這樣詢問呢？我們看一下，因為刑事警察局過去有37個內部單位，有時候被質疑機關龐雜需要整併，因此我也提醒內政部跟行政院，根據中央行政機關組織基準法第十條，任務性已經完成或政策改變，或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者，要予以整併，所以當新設詐防中心的同時，也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能，請一併做出檢討，好不好？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重視 感謝內部而言我們從政策上來強化法制面而言我們希望能夠有所不足的地方我們再透過更強大的修法院長你沒有回答本席的問題所以我們從政策 組織 法律各法制各方面都在進行院長你還是沒有回答本席的問題是過去這幾個月國人普遍印象裡面認為說政府在幹嘛"},{"start":136.806,"end":161.161,"text":"行政院還是在做行政院在做行政院是但是國人普遍印象裡面從不管是政論節目新聞媒體以及相關各部會下鄉去做宣講宣講是講國人認為說政府在做什麼宣講是跟預算相關的話題在行政院的範圍裡面我們跟國人來做說明說實在話院長"},{"start":162.622,"end":180.263,"text":"本席在經歷過7月26號再一次的選舉我想我應該是很有資格在這邊講這個話從上到下其實全國國人可能都認為今年三分之二時間政府從上到下帶頭都在搞罷免沒有真真正正的在做其他"},{"start":180.856,"end":208.01,"text":"真的國人關心的 我常說絕大部分的部委首長人民最希望看到的是拚經濟 拚民生 拚打詐但絕對不是拚政治絕大部分的部委首長都在努力自己的工作所以新聞畫面 你看一下七個人在七月因為詐騙而喪命權力大罷免的政府何時才能權力打詐當媒體用這樣的一個標語的時候其實我們是心痛的"},{"start":208.683,"end":217.372,"text":"我身為在野黨的委員我一樣非常心痛因為代表連媒體都認為是說現在這個政府完全沒有在針對民眾想要了解的問題來解決"},{"start":218.749,"end":240.774,"text":"我們每個月都有打砸的時機當然這不能再...你看你又要回來講數字了不是剛剛王玉川委員才跟你哭口婆心講說不要再講數字你說我們從來沒有做你現在又要拿數字來救援不是 是委員說我們都沒有在做我說我有在做做得不夠多不夠好非常好來 院長如果說你真的要講數字我們來講數字什麼樣的數字在你心目中你有沒有一個概念現在一天有多少國人被詐騙從"},{"start":243.756,"end":262.238,"text":"去年到現在我們每天減少的案件大概有350件打在儀表板上面昨天統計有多少的詐騙案件今天昨天我是沒有看我們每天下降的數字從這個禮拜一到禮拜四今天禮拜五還沒有統計出來這個禮拜一到禮拜四有多少的金額被詐騙"},{"start":263.561,"end":285.975,"text":"我只能跟你說這一年以來我們每天統計下降的數字每天有350件如果說你真的說念茲在這的話其實我覺得說這些數字應該都會在你心目中每天想著怎麼樣來降低一點一滴而不是到目前為止還是只能拿這本報告來救援禮拜一到禮拜四本席剛看了一下總共有11億2000萬被詐騙"},{"start":289.696,"end":318.57,"text":"四天裡面就有十一億兩千萬被詐騙的金額算不算高因為我們一年現在每個現在降到七月份是有八十一億來院長這個比例上就你的報告我們來討論其實本期今天很希望是很持平的因為我們都是要一起面對詐騙打擊詐騙人人有責來我們來看一下數字本期也跟你就數字討論數字因為這很客觀跟科學來看一下"},{"start":319.372,"end":344.303,"text":"這是您的報告對不對詐騙案件你上面畫了一個紅線是逐年下降的概念逐月下降的概念對不對院長有沒有發現有一個盲點從今年的3月到現在的7月其實它沒有下降它其實是完全有一個持平的概念來我們上一張"},{"start":347,"end":372.692,"text":"上一張你看如果說從去年因為你一直強調說去年8月才開始有改變這個登記的方式所以說8月以前你們先不記好本席也同意來我們先看一下就說那8月到今年的7月快一年的時間每個月的數字可你真的看過去這5個月從3月到7月他是一個成水平等於是說15000件每個月有超過差不多15000件他沒有繼續往下"},{"start":376.121,"end":389.897,"text":"我們就講是說這類似選舉有所謂基本盤啊難道我們詐騙也有詐騙基本盤嗎國人一個月有一萬五千多件可能會被詐騙那過去這五個月發生了什麼問題委員我兩句話第一個對這個數字政府從來沒有滿意過"},{"start":393.583,"end":422.059,"text":"我也不滿意你也不滿意沒有所以我要找的是問題啊他每個月都有每個月的因素因為你看院長我可以請教一下說這個問題在哪裡這五個月都有每個月有一萬五千件每個月我們都有分析過二月份特別低因為是過年期間我現在在問三月到七月七月份會比較高因為進入到暑假期間我現在在問三月到七月特別對青少年的事情沒有針對本協會有啊七月會比較高因為是暑假期間院長七月有比較高嗎對"},{"start":424.244,"end":446.102,"text":"七月沒有下降 七月有比六月高嗎七月沒有下降 因為它是暑假期間 是吧所以院長 本席現在在跟你討論的是說我們現在國內有一個所謂詐騙基本盤就是一個月有一萬五千件 已經持續了五個月有沒有注意到這個數字 所以我們逐月在分析如果把它下降是 那我們剛剛有說過 所以本席才會問是說在這五個月裡面沒有下降的問題點在哪裡"},{"start":447.603,"end":469.977,"text":"我們說有些案件它是遞延會發生六個月才會發生但這個是一直遞延下來我也覺得一直維持我首先要求的是不能往上升再來維持平衡之後就往下降我們再看下一個金額來我們再看金額的數字院長本席希望能夠跟你好好就事論事就事情討論事情來看一下這個詐騙的金額"},{"start":472.622,"end":485.175,"text":"你的報告也是畫一條紅線往下代表是說這個逐年往下嘛 對不對逐月往下嘛 但實際上是這樣子嗎實際上是這個樣子嗎我們看一下過去這五個月我們看一下過去這五個月嘛來 你看一下過去這五個月"},{"start":493.064,"end":517.265,"text":"過去這五個月從二月你剛講的農曆因為第一農曆二月天數比較少第二農曆過年放假比較多所以二月比較低但從三月一直到七月他其實呈現一個逐步往上的數字二月不是天數比較少是大團在休息放連假嘛但是三月到七月是不是一個逐步往上"},{"start":518.72,"end":531.825,"text":"是 我的要求是不能往上升一定要先壓制所以現在往上升了你的要求看起來是破功啦是不是跟委員報告就是我們要看從去年跟今年的那個重新的一個狀態比較那個也是急速的一個下降嘛院長 院長"},{"start":539.745,"end":566.561,"text":"圖形有所不同但是我不爭執這個事情我現在都是拿你今天的報告來跟你救教我今天都拿你今天的報告不是要美化數字數字是科學數字是理性數字是務實但重點是本身現在看到數字就是有問題你不能拿數字之後然後你給我一個圖表畫一條橫線往下你就以為催眠國人說現在是往下不對啊每個月有八十幾億"},{"start":568.243,"end":592.019,"text":"五月八十五億 六月八十九億 七月八十六億八十幾億的詐騙金額在被詐騙 平均一天兩億到三億也是經過我們就是打詐團隊的一個努力像以去年的話八月到十二月都是一半多月嘛那你現在就是不理性不科學的做法嗎但是我想這個都是一長期來看 這是下降趨勢就是我們打詐有一些的"},{"start":592.159,"end":595.265,"text":"部長你還要跟我扯趨勢是不是你還要跟我扯趨勢嗎這個是什麼趨勢三歲小孩都看得懂趨勢你跟我扯趨勢"},{"start":603.985,"end":629.825,"text":"我們從去年比較上它是下降的那現在足月有高高低低我們不滿意我們在這裡的對話我們這裡的對話不要讓外界覺得說您不滿意我滿意絕對不是我們都不滿意大家都不滿意所以我們會努力往下降所以民眾的民怨才會那麼高所以民眾才會希望大家好好的做實事做真事做對的事情而不是浪費時間浪費精力在搞其他的政治來 部長"},{"start":631.083,"end":659.933,"text":"剛剛我也聽到黃珊珊委員有詢問到因為我們認為是說詐騙竟然每一個都是每一個都是一個血淋淋的案例但是我們也看到今年1月到6月這刑事警察局給本席的資料已經財損561億如果看這個趨勢下去很有可能今年會破千億院長有什麼方法可以處理"},{"start":662.176,"end":686.613,"text":"剛剛我在報告裡面都把基本上的方法講了那這些方法只會越來越精進該橫向聯繫 該跨境合作該加強它的懲詐的效果跟司法院的互相的來就法制面來強化等等我們都會做這個都已經在進行當中來處理法制面的問題我先請教喔因為剛剛黃珊珊委員有提到一個案例這是四天前的一個新聞"},{"start":687.413,"end":700.05,"text":"我要不要跟那個詐騙三百萬被抓車手假釋還高調拍片說沒有想賠我們看一下內容因為剛剛聽起來是院長跟部長沒有看到這一個影片對不對"},{"start":701.229,"end":725.372,"text":"我剛才請部長要把這個影片找出來到底這個人是誰是真是假來如何處理他說錢已經被他花光了法院只跟他強制扣了有7000多塊但是他花光了300萬他本來不打算賠錢認為錢關出來之後可以繼續花但是因為爭取假釋所以說他才要去和解院長如果說到最後台灣變成是笑評不笑唱"},{"start":726.653,"end":749.511,"text":"如果說台灣社會變成是這種詐騙集團車手可以這樣子高調用社群媒體平台還這樣子肆無忌憚的把他的犯罪過程跟犯罪狀況拋在網路上你可以允許可以認同嗎所以我們現在才來講是說是不是能夠針對修法騙多少 欠多少 罰多少"},{"start":750.43,"end":771.352,"text":"他騙了三千三百多萬結果到時候他只被強制扣押七千多塊可能是因為他三百多萬全部都已經花光了所以他名下沒有這些財產我們一般的民間借款借了多少錢可能你都要還多少錢欠款都要還款但沒想到詐騙居然就可以騙多少錢不用還他應該騙的金額院長"},{"start":773.732,"end":784.719,"text":"有沒有修法空間我們要啟動修法 請部長說明這部分在委員關心就是詐偽條例43條裡面我們有就高額的一個詐欺那以現在的來講的話500萬元是"},{"start":787.043,"end":816.083,"text":"三到十年一億也是五到十二現在我們要再多一個級距我們想要是在中間如果一千萬的話就五到十二一億以上就七億以上我想這個高的渣期的這部分的確是要遏止一定要嚴加的嚴辦那這部分我們那個修正查明先再行政再審查中什麼時候可以出來我們這盡快因為這部分還邀司法院來做一個討論我們希望能夠盡快能夠達成一個公示能夠把這個法案送到立法院來審議"},{"start":818.066,"end":832.881,"text":"院長剛剛部長回答的是針對詐騙那另外嫌犯但是本席剛有提到另外一部分是針對他騙的錢因為你現在很多的案件其實你被騙的金額到時候你也是拿不回來這個是我們關心的是在詐偽條46跟47條"},{"start":837.526,"end":862.246,"text":"他那部分現在以刑事大法庭來講的話他是採報酬縮報酬縮所以說他三千七千塊只拿了一筆這是很不公平那我想我們當初的立法本來就是要全部以被害人的被交付的被害金而縮但是現在我們現在有修法有修正草案在4647條這部分仿照德國立法例我們"},{"start":863.207,"end":883.794,"text":"什麼時候可以出來我們現在是也是草案現在同時因為我自己修了好幾條8月14號那個對那個我們六位六位送過去那最近密集的在做一個開會做一個最近就在開會所以什麼來院長還是強調嘛你不能全部都是積在行政院你什麼時候可以來到立法院我們共同討論"},{"start":884.878,"end":896.785,"text":"因為這個還要跟司法院做討論我記得8月10幾號已經開過一次會了那開過會有具體結論我們就把它法治法完整 送交大院院長 三個月內有沒有辦法"},{"start":898.598,"end":922.959,"text":"現在是8月底了嘛我們9月10月會期下個會期一定提出來好不好下個會期是到12月一定提出來讓他可以大院有審議我們希望是在你總諮詢的時候總諮詢結束之後我們就可以來處理一定提出來讓大院有審議的時間好 院長其實本期還有很多的問題還有很多的意見尤其是針對我們現在所謂的這個融資公司專法"},{"start":924.394,"end":936.497,"text":"不能說融資公司因為其實大家看到很多的新聞案件融資公司也是現在有可能變成是詐騙集團的一環不要說讓劣幣驅逐良幣如果說合法的融資公司但是非法的很多的融資公司他們有受到法律管理的時候很有可能會被犯罪回酬我們看到之前被逼死的那些民修很大部分也都是給融資公司來被控告的我們會自己把他們的責任讓他們拿來"},{"start":979.849,"end":981.13,"text":"好 謝謝侯孟凱文的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2028,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時8分）主席謝謝。麻煩請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長好。院長，上任一年多以來，國人一直希望政府是做實事、做真事、做對的事，而詐騙是沒有任何一個人可以接受的。我剛剛聽到好幾位委員向你質詢及就教後，發覺你也開始改口願意稱這些數字其實是沒有太大意義……"],["卓院長榮泰：我在報告裡面就講過了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，因為每一個數字，即便你說從去年到今年有減少，但對於被害者來講，每一個案件就是百分之百的詐騙……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯、沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：每一個案件就是沒有辦法拿回來被騙的錢，而更重要的是態度問題，本席第一線長期跟我們所有的警務同仁以及相關人員在一起，本席非常肯定我們第一線的員警同仁，大家對於打擊詐騙的辛苦、辛勞。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是有沒有讓全國國人看到現在的政府帶頭從上到下在拼打詐？院長，你自己怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會……","洪委員孟楷；你有讓國人感受到我們全國所有的部會首長，大家都真真正正放心思在拼打擊詐騙嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：外表態樣上來看，我們對這些打詐的相關人員，我們予以鼓勵、重視、感謝；內部而言，我們從政策上來強化；法制面而言，我們希望有所不足的地方，我們再透過更強大的修法……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你沒有回答本席的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們從政策、組織、法律、法制等各方面都在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你還是沒有回答本席的問題，過去這幾個月，國人普遍印象裡面認為政府在幹嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院還是在做行政院該做的事。"],["洪委員孟楷：行政院在做行政院的事，但是國人普遍印象裡面，從不管是政論節目、新聞媒體以及相關各部會下鄉去做宣講……"],["卓院長榮泰：宣講是講……"],["洪委員孟楷：國人認為政府在做什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：宣講是跟預算相關的話題，在行政院的範圍裡面，我們跟國人來做說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，院長，本席在經歷過7月26號再一次的選舉，我想我應該是很有資格在這邊講這個話，從上到下，其實全國國人可能都認為今年三分之二的時間，政府從上到下帶頭都在搞罷免，沒有真真正正地在做其他國人真的關心的，我常說……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕大部分的部會首長都……"],["洪委員孟楷：人民最希望看到的是拚經濟、拚民生、拚打詐，但絕對不是拚政治。"],["卓院長榮泰：絕大部分的部會首長都在努力自己的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以新聞畫面，你看一下，7個人在7月因為詐騙而喪命，全力大罷免的政府何時才能全力打詐？當媒體用這樣一個標語的時候，其實我們是心痛的。我身為在野黨的委員，我一樣非常心痛，因為代表連媒體都認為現在這個政府完全沒有在針對民眾想要了解的問題來解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們每個月都有打詐的實績，當然這不能……"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，你又要回來講數字了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛王義川委員才跟你苦口婆心講說不要再講數字……"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我們從來沒有做。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在又要拿數字來救援？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，是委員說我們都沒有在做，我說我有在做，做得不夠多、不夠好是事實。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，來，院長，如果你真的要講數字，我們來講數字，什麼樣的數字，在你心目中你有沒有概念？現在一天有多少國人被詐騙？"],["卓院長榮泰：從去年到現在，我們每天減少的案件大概有350件。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天、昨天在打詐儀表板上面，昨天統計有多少的詐騙案件？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天、昨天我是沒有看，我們每天下降的數字……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個禮拜從禮拜一到禮拜四，今天禮拜五還沒有統計出來，這個禮拜一到禮拜四，有多少金額被詐騙？"],["卓院長榮泰：我只能跟你說，這一年以來，我們每天統計下降的數字，每天有350件。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，如果你真的念茲在茲的話，其實我覺得這些數字應該都會在你心目中，每天想著怎麼樣來降低一點一滴，而不是到目前為止，還是只能拿這本報告來救援。禮拜一到禮拜四，本席剛剛看了一下，總共有11億2,000萬被詐騙，4天裡面就有11億2,000萬被詐騙的金額，算不算高？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們一年……現在降到7月份是有81億，這個比例上我是覺得……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，就你的報告我們來討論，其實本席今天很希望是很持平的，因為我們都是要一起面對詐騙、打擊詐騙，人人有責。來，我們來看一下數字，本席也跟你就數字討論數字，因為這很客觀跟科學。來，看一下，這是您的報告，對不對？詐騙案件你上面畫了一個紅線，是逐年下降的概念、逐月下降的概念，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，有沒有發現有一個盲點？從今年的3月到現在的7月，其實它沒有下降，它其實完全是一個持平的概念。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：上一張你看，如果說從去年，因為你一直強調說去年8月才開始有改變登記的方式……"],["卓院長榮泰：統計的方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以8月以前你們先不計，好，本席也同意。來，我們先看一下，8月到今年的7月，快一年的時間每個月的數字，可是你真的看過去這5個月，從3月到7月它是呈水平，等於是每個月有差不多1萬5,000件，它沒有繼續往下，我們就講，這類似選舉有所謂的基本盤，難道詐騙也有詐騙基本盤嗎？國人一個月有一萬五千多件可能會被詐騙，過去這5個月發生了什麼問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我講兩句話，政府對這個數字從來沒有滿意過；第二個……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我現在……我不滿意，你也不滿意沒有錯，但我要找的是問題啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，第二個是，它每個月都有每個月的因素，譬如你看……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我可不可以請教一下這個問題在哪裡？這5個月以來，每個月有1萬5,000件。"],["卓院長榮泰：每個月我們都有分析，2月就特別低，因為是過年期間……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在問的是3月到7月。"],["卓院長榮泰：7月會比較高，因為進入到暑假期間。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在問的是3月到7月，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們特別對青少年的事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您沒有針對本席的問題回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：有啊！7月會比較高，因為是暑假期間。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，7月有比較高嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，7月……"],["洪委員孟楷：7月有比6月高嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：7月沒有下降，因為它是暑假期間。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，院長，本席現在在跟你討論的是，我們現在國內有一個所謂的詐騙基本盤，就是一個月有1萬5,000件，已經持續了5個月，有沒有注意到這個數字？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是逐月在分析，看要如何把它下降……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以本席才會問，在這5個月裡面沒有下降的問題點在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：有些案件是遞延6個月發生，這個是一直遞延下來的，我也覺得一直維持……我首先要求的是不能往上升，再來維持平衡之後就要往下降。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我們再看下一個金額。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓我們按部就班地來。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，我們再看金額的數字。院長，本席希望可以好好跟你就事論事，就事情討論事情。來看一下這個詐騙的金額，你的報告也是畫了一條紅線往下，代表這是逐年往下，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：從131億到81億。"],["洪委員孟楷：逐月往下嘛！但實際上是這個樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是逐月往下，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：實際上是這個樣子嗎？我們看一下過去這5個月。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然中間有高高低低啊！它一樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們看一下過去這5個月嘛！來，你看一下過去這5個月。過去這5個月從2月，就像你剛剛講的，因為農曆……2月天數比較少，第二，農曆過年放假比較多，所以2月比較低，但從3月一直到7月，它其實是呈現逐步往上的數字。"],["卓院長榮泰：2月不是天數比較少而是詐團在休息。"],["洪委員孟楷：放連假嘛！但3月到7月是不是逐步往上？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，但我的要求是不能往上升，一定要先……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在往上升了，所以你的要求看起來是破功了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是可以跟委員報告？就是我們要看從去年跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長……我現在在請教院長。部長，除非你想篡位，否則的話先讓我請院長回答好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是一個急速的下降。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長、院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：圖形有所不同，但我不爭執這個事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在都是拿你今天的報告在跟你就教，我拿的都是你今天的報告，我不是要美化數字，數字是科學、數字是理性、數字是務實，但重點是本席現在看到的數字就是有問題，你不能拿出數字之後，然後給我一個圖表，畫一條橫線往下就以為可以催眠國人現在是往下，不對啊！每個月有八十幾億，5月是85億、6月是89億、7月是86億，有八十幾億的金額在被詐騙，平均一天是2億到3億。"],["鄭部長銘謙：經過我們打詐團隊的努力，像去年8月到12月都是一百多億嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：結果你現在一直在跟我吵，你不覺得這樣就是不理性、不科學的作法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在都是八十幾億，當然我們不滿意，但我想這個以長期來看就是有下降趨勢，代表我們打詐有看到一些成果……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你還要跟我扯趨勢是不是，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我認為我們還是不能滿足這樣的數字。"],["洪委員孟楷：你還要跟我扯趨勢嗎？這個是什麼趨勢？3歲小孩都看得懂的趨勢，你跟我扯趨勢！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟去年的比較上，它是下降的，現在逐月是高高低低，我們不滿意。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長、院長，看來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在這裡的對話不要讓外界覺得您不滿意、我滿意，絕對不是，我們都不滿意。"],["洪委員孟楷：大家都不滿意。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們會努力往下降。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以民眾的民怨才會那麼高，所以民眾才會希望大家好好地做實事、做真事、做對的事情，而不是浪費時間、浪費精力在搞其他的政治。部長，剛剛我有聽到黃珊珊委員有詢問到，因為我們認為每一個詐騙都是一個血淋淋的案例，但是我們也看到刑事警察局給本席的資料，今年1月到6月已經財損561億。如果看這個趨勢繼續下去，很有可能今年會破千億。院長，有什麼方法可以處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛在報告裡面都把基本上的方法講了，這些方法只會愈來愈精進，該橫向聯繫、該跨境合作、該加強懲詐的效果、跟司法院互相就法制面來強化等等，我們都會做，這個都已經在進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們就法制面來處理法制面的問題。我先請教，因為剛剛黃珊珊委員也有提到一個案例，這是四天前的一個新聞……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我要不要跟委員說明……"],["洪委員孟楷：詐騙300萬被抓，車手假釋還高調拍片，說沒有想賠。我們看一下內容，因為剛剛聽起來是院長和部長沒有看到這個影片，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛也請部長要把這個影片找出來，看到底這個人是誰、是真是假、如何處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，他說錢已經被他花光了，法院只跟他強制扣留七千多塊，但是他花光了300萬，他本來不打算賠錢，認為錢關出來之後可以繼續花，但是因為要爭取假釋，所以他才要去和解。院長，如果到最後臺灣變成是笑貧不笑娼，如果臺灣社會變成是這種詐騙集團的車手可以這樣高調，用社群媒體平臺，還這樣肆無忌憚地把他的犯罪過程及犯罪狀況po在網路上，你可以允許、可以認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不允許、不認同，我們會處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們還要再查證……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們現在才來講是不是能夠針對騙多少、欠多少、罰多少修法？他騙了三百多萬，結果到最後他只被強制扣押七千多塊，可能是因為他三百多萬全部都已經花光了，所以他名下沒有這些財產。我們一般的民間借款，借了多少錢，可能都要還多少錢，欠款都要還款，但沒想到詐騙集團可以騙多少錢，卻不用還他騙的金額。院長，有沒有修法的空間？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要啟動修法，請部長說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員關心的這個部分是在詐危條例第四十三條裡面，我們有就高額詐欺，以現在的來講的話，五百萬元是三到十年，一億元是五到十二年，現在我們要再多一個級距，我們是想要在中間增加，如果一千萬的話，就五到十二年，一億以上就七年以上。我想高額詐欺這個部分的確是要遏止，一定要嚴辦。現在這個修正草案在行政院審查中，這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘快，因為這個部分還要跟司法院來做一個討論，我們希望能夠儘快達成共識，把這個法案送到立法院來審議。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，剛剛部長回答的是針對詐騙嫌犯，但是本席剛剛有提到另外一部分，是針對他騙的錢，因為現在很多案件其實被騙的金額到最後也是拿不回來，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分跟委員報告，委員關心的是在詐危條例第四十六條和第四十七條，以現在刑事大法庭來講的話，他是採報酬說，所以他騙300萬，才扣押七千塊，這是很不公平，我想我們當初的立法本來就是要以被害人交付的被害金額說，我們現在有修正草案，在第四十六條、第四十七條，這個部分仿照德國立法例，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在是……"],["洪委員孟楷：也是草案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是同時，因為我們這個修了好幾條……"],["卓院長榮泰：8月14日有開會……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們6月送過去，最近密集地在開會、做審……"],["卓院長榮泰：最近就在開會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：密集開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，還是強調，你不能全部都積在行政院，你什麼時候可以來到立法院，我們共同討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這個還要跟司法院做討論……"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：但我記得8月十幾日已經開過一次會了，開過會，如果有具體結論，我們就把它法制化完成，送交大院。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，3個月內有沒有辦法？現在是8月底了，9月、10月……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，下個會期一定提出來，好不好？一定提出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：下個會期是到12月。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定提出來讓大院有審議……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們希望是在總質詢結束之後，我們就可以來處理，所以才會定出3個月。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們一定提出來，讓大院有審議的時間。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，其實本席還有很多的問題、還有很多的意見，尤其是針對我們現在所謂的融資公司專法，因為大家看到很多新聞案件，融資公司現在也是有可能變成詐騙集團的一環，不要讓劣幣驅逐良幣。如果是合法的融資公司可以持續經營，但是很多非法的融資公司，它沒有受到法的管理的時候，很有可能就變成犯罪溫床。我們看到之前被逼死的那些民眾，很大部分也都是有融資公司在背後的影子。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會立法，把它加入納管。"],["洪委員孟楷：會立法納管？"],["卓院長榮泰：往這個方向，已經在努力了。"],["洪委員孟楷：金管會講的不是這樣子。院長，這是你的態度問題，本席還會再追這個議題，本席以及很多委員，不分藍綠、不分朝野都希望這個真的應該要納管，唯有納管……"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要這樣做。"],["洪委員孟楷：才能夠真真正正把良幣保留，把劣幣去除，而不是像現在的狀況，亂象橫生。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢，張智倫委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}},{"id":"163525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6462838dfeb59ad6c18cf3659852ed250fb52be572812adaf29602ffc9a9b6cbf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:53:01 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我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21.994,"end":50.671,"text":"黃委員好好 卓院長好剛剛這個聽了很多委員的質詢相關的訊息統計資料當然跟包括法務部部長大家對這些統計資料的調查的方式時間點你們有一些要做說明但是我是覺得這樣這些統計的數字包括這些曲線的上上下下在人民的角度"},{"start":51.872,"end":79.566,"text":"我覺得有感報告裡面有講過一萬件、兩萬件、幾百件這個數字對任何一個個人用詐騙的那個人看到這個數字有感第二個呢這個打詐的這個儀表板在很多公共政策在跟人民宣傳的時候都有這個儀表板"},{"start":81.683,"end":108.654,"text":"這儀表板 我也常常接到朋友說你這蟲蟲 詐騙這麼多 這麼久還有一個辦公室 也是在詐騙我們說 沒有啊 這詐騙有在改進 有在進步你看那個數字怎麼樣 可是這有時候人民聽不下去我覺得這個困境要想辦法突破這個困境要想辦法突破 譬如說剛才有人說到酒駕"},{"start":110.336,"end":139.302,"text":"用酒駕 現在量有減可是也有酒駕也有酒駕致死啦所以我跟這個院長交流一個概念跟院長報告的時候你說我們現在這個詐騙有五大類型這樣聽起來很危險的是說我們知道有這五大類型你們按照AI去分析 包括卡電回一次他講的這個內容第六個正在形成中"},{"start":140.888,"end":165.715,"text":"我們花很多時間在處理這五個可是對詐騙集團的人來說你這五個我都知道你中華民國政府知道這五個我當然不會再用這五個我會形成第六個 形成第七個所以這一塊我是請卓院長跟打詐辦公室或相關的同仁"},{"start":166.738,"end":171.243,"text":"這一部分可能要再精進就是說正在形成中的詐騙形態"},{"start":173.526,"end":197.917,"text":"要提早啊能夠因應 委員所說的是我剛剛說的假投資假交友假網購假買家騙賣家還有假檢警這五大這五大只是他受理案件60%都是這五大 財損90%都是這五大其他當然還有很多各種形態都有那在達渣儀表板上面就會有很辛苦把他"},{"start":199.057,"end":211.345,"text":"內容都把它太陽化出來我們不會放掉其他小的我意思是說20年前可能就沒有什麼詐騙這個事情以前可能有什麼金光黨這種的 我們了解金光黨現在這10年 假設我這個詐騙這個事情這個技術 方法一直變數位平台的發展它一直變 它一直變的時候要醞釀一兩年 吃一兩天就變了"},{"start":225.482,"end":243.958,"text":"啊 原來這種的也是詐騙就被我們的政府啊收錄到詐騙的形態然後我們就開始去研究怎麼樣防止然後怎麼告訴大家說這種的叫做詐騙我的意思是說 想這個東西我們要做在前面"},{"start":245.663,"end":273.146,"text":"用方法論來想這件事情如果要想在前面阿是不是世界各國阿世界各國也有很多詐騙的嘛那世界各國有沒有正在形成中的這種詐騙型態台灣現在沒有可是我們總是有專業的人員阿齁全世界你們有在交流 交流之後想說喔 這次有可能是台灣的發生提早阿 把這件事講給他看"},{"start":274.784,"end":284.353,"text":"你提早把這個事情提早防範在前面不然我覺得我們的政府現在都在做已經發生的事情然後我們在"},{"start":285.083,"end":312.711,"text":"在處理啦我們還有一個就是預警中斷他的詐騙所以我們剛剛我報告中有提到一個尋找這個潛在的被害人而且我們已經通報了兩萬五千件就是把你可能受騙的人還不是很大眾化的一個行為但是我們認為你這個身份特殊或是你的環境特殊等等還有你可能現在在某一種平台上面你有一些接觸把他找出來提醒他不要涉入到這個詐騙那專長我請問你"},{"start":314.586,"end":343.624,"text":"潛在被害者你可以跟大家講有哪些類型因為這個潛在被害人通報有兩萬五千件還要從裡面再去分析我現在就是要提醒卓院長農化民國政府如果給社會說潛在被害人是這幾類詐騙集團就聽到了詐騙集團就聽到了嘛因為你說詐騙集團就聽到了你網路上說人家就看到說喔這些人被注意到了喔轉個方向啊"},{"start":345.126,"end":370.521,"text":"至少我們保護了兩萬五千人的安全所以我是說為什麼會為什麼就是說我們在這件事情上民眾也會繼續用詐騙當然很多官第一官有跟他們一談有時候是一個陷阱什麼一大堆有的沒的這一塊我覺得要用比較好的跟世界交流一下看人們新型態的詐騙不要再讓他進來台灣這個大家互相勉勵好 第二個"},{"start":375.317,"end":399.843,"text":"薪錢啦最近有人在分析這個台灣在這個跟詐騙有關的三件事情一個叫人力輸出人力輸出就是說他去外面去別的國家去做詐騙不管他去了騙台灣人 騙中國人 騙什麼人人力輸出第二種叫做金錢轉運第三種叫做幫派轉型"},{"start":404.548,"end":426.733,"text":"因為以後要偷錢就要靠幫派嘛好 中這個金錢的轉運啊就是施政啊這件事情我們到底要怎麼處理 我要跟院長講一個實際的案例啊有位朋友啊 朋友就他送他家人去洗錢 現在被抓起來了就整個忙他們的家人 說你們怎麼做這個什麼詐騙的 這樣對不對騙這麼多人 害這麼多人 這樣對不對"},{"start":434.565,"end":454.176,"text":"那家人回答說 沒有啦 他是在洗錢 他不是在詐騙然後整場的人喔 他說喔 那不一樣喔洗錢跟詐騙不一樣喔所以你家人沒有在做詐騙 沒有 我家人是在做洗錢聽起來洗錢比較高級啦詐騙聽起來比較高喔"},{"start":459.315,"end":475.844,"text":"我為什麼提這件事情就是說 他詐騙來的錢總是要把他洗乾淨啦洗錢的這件事情是台灣 到底我們政府是怎麼處理你總是要在這裡 假設有一個人他去用詐騙10萬塊匯過去 匯進某一個戶頭那個戶頭也是東方民國的戶頭嘛這錢之後再去用洗出來 不管叫車手去捏出來還是以網路轉轉的轉出去"},{"start":488.581,"end":503.667,"text":"防不勝防 要洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗 洗"},{"start":505.552,"end":525.066,"text":"洗錢怎麼防治然後我們現在到底做了什麼樣的努力啊因為洗錢會是詐騙過程中蠻重要的一環洗錢這條路可以動的可能詐騙的錢啊在這一關也許可以擋住蠻多的所以打詐釋法當中就有一個就是洗錢防治法"},{"start":525.928,"end":551.957,"text":"目前的措施跟委員報告最主要那個洗錢委員提到那個案例說我們怕你洗錢那就是提供人頭帳戶都用洗錢防治法來取數的因為它那個洗錢防治法21條跟22條一個是收集這些人人頭帳戶或人頭的帳號另外22條就是賣就是提供的這種的人頭帳戶"},{"start":553.417,"end":571.024,"text":"所以如果說這一種提供人頭帳戶帳號的這一種行為的話就是適用洗錢方針法22條來處罰你說的這些都很小條的啦我給你提供一個郵局的篷子郵局的篷子我交出去你給我三千錢錢就由你去寫嘛"},{"start":575.905,"end":596.805,"text":"這個應該很快 他就發言說這個虎頭納奇怪五年沒在進出香港 現在十萬又出去五萬這個我覺得現有的金融體系這個事情我判斷應該有守住啦而且現在因為很多人沒有去整台啊出去下去你的錢就洗來洗去嘛"},{"start":597.423,"end":620.428,"text":"所以我們有第一線很努力我們的金融機構的人員我們常常看電視說什麼阿伯去到那裡 阿姨去到那裡跟他們說你不一定是在詐騙的那個我們都有看到但是其實應該是蠻多人已經不得不接觸的人他就在網路手機按一按電腦按一按錢就出去後來他才驚覺他跟我們朋友說的時候才驚覺說那就是詐騙啊我覺得這個事情是人民 現在人民不是說"},{"start":626.601,"end":653.992,"text":"這政府總是要想一個辦法 不然那個董事人啦可能董事給他騙啦 或是為了貪啦什麼到處十萬一百年一萬回來啦 何況到時候沒啦我抱怨抱怨啦 說現在還弄二十萬喔限期三天啊 如果沒齁 這機會就沒了這種我們都聽很多 但是這種金額數字不大可是現在很多人是 他是透過網路的錢就出去了 他也還救不回來這樣"},{"start":655.27,"end":673.088,"text":"報告委員 這個是可疑帳戶人家請主委說明我知道他在一定的時間內重複的使用固定的金額或是在不同的地區短時間內不同地區一直的使用我們都有列入這個可疑帳戶詳細再請主委說明報告委員 就是有關帳戶的管理"},{"start":675.39,"end":702.745,"text":"如果已經確實有被害人就是現在給我警示帳戶就會全面凍結那再來就是如果可疑帳戶的話他們透過通報的話他會就採取必要性因為他還沒有犯罪行為但他會去做一些管制那如果他覺得可疑他會通報警察他可以把這個事情把這個帳戶作為一個警示主委你剛剛講前面有一個叫被害人對 要有被害人去報案問題就自己家嘛"},{"start":703.985,"end":727.05,"text":"他就被害了,他就去擁擠了人民的問題就是奇怪的,我們家的四大人他平常是叫郵局去供來,或是供來五萬、十萬的每個年輕人嘛,年三、四年,他現在要給五萬、十萬你郵局也給他放棄?你郵局也給他放棄?這有你三、五、六、七、八年來都去郵局了,怎麼會給他放棄?"},{"start":733.297,"end":755.556,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關這部份 陳同剛才委員講我們正在做一些現在不方便在這邊說那我可以再跟委員做私底下的報告這個確實有些銀行已經跟法務部在合作做這些事情但是我是說這個細節的部份我們已經在進行中很好 我今天就是要聽這句"},{"start":757.096,"end":772.491,"text":"因為我感覺聽卓院長的報告,裡面有些到居心靡遺這對詐騙集團來說這叫保典啊你通過美國政府說,嘿,我就知道這裡嘛詐騙集團,他可以做詐騙集團,他的頭腦叫我們沒什麼工"},{"start":775.936,"end":799.019,"text":"如果我們主委告訴我們有些事情是已經在做那已經在做沒說出來防範在前面當詐騙集團決定要往那條路走的時候發現被我們堵住了其實包括委員我們是全方位做很多事情但我們不會對外說明這個很好最後我還是建議卓院長跟我們的團隊"},{"start":800.885,"end":827.47,"text":"這些統計的金額、數量、統計的圖表不要再糾結在這些事情這是一段時間我們對於工作人員的一個檢查的報告我剛剛有說過這個數字不代表任何的成果就是說這些數字上上下下可能有一個突發事件就忽然間就跳起來"},{"start":828.101,"end":832.025,"text":"有些我們很努力就降下去可是不代表說這個"},{"start":833.752,"end":858.737,"text":"但是我們必須對這些內部做一些考核要用這個來做考核但對外絕不承認它是一個什麼樣的成本就是說 院長不要糾結說因為這麼多議員的問嘛我們說你怕幾分啦到底有在做嗎 有進步嗎 有改善嗎這些數字啊 內部參考啊就也不用特別去說哎呦 我們這詐騙金額已經成功"},{"start":863.482,"end":879.038,"text":"已經多少金額減少多少人被害這些事情對被詐騙的人跟被詐騙的家庭來說這些數字對他沒有意義對他有意義的是兩件事"},{"start":884.844,"end":909.953,"text":"第一他沒有希望叫他同樣的人再去做PAN所以他會問政府說所以我的案子在這裡醫療還會去做PAN政府到底做了什麼事情剛才我們彭主委說的這些事情現在正在做這個就是努力去做把這個事情做好真的不要再計較這個圖表上的那些數字"},{"start":910.473,"end":920.997,"text":"跟KPI 以免啊搞到最後 大家都在做這些表面功夫啦這件事情 把這個院長提醒一下好 謝謝謝謝 王一川委員執行謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1975,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（11時53分）謝謝院長。我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員義川：卓院長好。剛剛聽了很多委員的質詢，相關訊息、統計資料，包括法務部部長對這些統計資料的調查方式和時間點，當然有一些要做說明。但我是覺得這樣，這些統計數字，包括這些曲線的上上下下，在人民的角度是無感的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這在報告裡面有講過。"],["王委員義川：就是1萬件、2萬件、幾百億，這個數字對任何一個個人、被詐騙的那個人而言，他看到這個數字是無感的。","第二個是，在跟人民宣傳的很多公共政策當中都有打詐儀錶板，關於這個儀錶板，我也常常接到朋友反映說，弄了這些東西，詐騙還是那麼多，而且弄了這麼久，還有一個辦公室，還是在詐騙啊！我說：沒有啊！打詐已經有在進步了，你看那個數字就知道。可是這樣講有時人民聽不進去。所以我覺得這個困境要想辦法突破。譬如說剛剛有人講到酒駕，你說現在酒駕的量有減少，但還是有酒駕，也還有酒駕致死。","所以我跟院長交流一個概念，剛才院長報告的時候，你說現在詐騙有5大類型，這樣聽起來很危險的是說，我們知道有這5大類型，你們按照AI去分析，包括打電話進來的說話內容，然後第6個正在形成中，我們花很多時間在處理這5個，可是對詐騙集團的人來說，我都知道中華民國政府知道這5個了，當然不會再用這5個啊！我會再形成第6個、形成第7個。所以我請卓院長跟打詐辦公室或相關同仁，就這部分可能要再精進，要能夠提早因應正在形成中的詐騙型態。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所說的這些，就是我剛剛說的假投資、假交友、假網購、假買家騙賣家，還有假檢警這5大，這5大是受理案件的60%、財損90%，其他當然還有很多，各種型態都有，在打詐儀錶板上面就會很辛苦地把內容態樣化，我們不會放掉其他小的。"],["王委員義川：我知道，我的意思是20年前可能沒有詐騙這種事情，以前可能有金光黨什麼的，現在這10年有詐騙這件事情，技術、方法一直變。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為數位平台的發展。"],["王委員義川：他一直變的時候，可能要醞釀1、2年，很多人被騙了，才發現原來這種也是詐騙，就被我們政府收錄到詐騙的型態……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員義川：然後我們就開始研究怎麼樣防止、怎麼告訴大家說這種叫做詐騙，我意思是像這種東西要做在前面，我用方法論來想這件事情，如果要想在前面，是不是世界各國也有很多詐騙？世界各國有沒有正在形成中的詐騙型態，而臺灣現在沒有，可是我們總是有專業人員，全世界你們都有交流，交流之後想說這種詐騙有可能會在臺灣發生，就提早把這件事情說破，或是在前面提早防範，不然我覺得政府現在都是做已經發生的事情，然後來處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還有一個就是預警，中斷他的詐騙，所以我剛剛報告中有提到尋找潛在的被害人，而且我們已經通報了2萬5,000件，就是把可能受騙的人，還不是很大眾化的行為，但是我們認為他身分特殊或是環境特殊等等，還有他可能在某一種平台上有一些接觸，把他找出來，提醒不要涉入詐騙陷阱。"],["王委員義川：卓院長，我請問你，可以跟大家講潛在被害人有哪些類型嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為潛在被害人通報有2萬5,000件，從裡面再去分析。"],["王委員義川：好，我現在就是要提醒卓院長，中華民國政府如果跟社會說潛在被害人是這幾類，詐騙集團一聽到，因為你說詐騙集團會聽到啊，網路上說了就看到了，這些人被注意到了，他就轉個方向啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：至少我們保護了2萬5,000人的安全。"],["王委員義川：所以我說為什麼在這件事情上，民眾還是會被詐騙，當然很多關啦，第一關，有可能他貪，有時候是一個陷阱，什麼有的沒的一大堆，這一塊我覺得要跟世界比較好地交流一下，看人家新型態的詐騙，不要再讓它進來臺灣，大家互相勉勵。"],["卓院長榮泰：一起努力，好。"],["王委員義川：第二個，洗錢，最近有人在分析臺灣跟詐騙有關的3件事情：一種叫人力輸出，就是說他被帶去別的國家做詐騙，不管去了之後，騙臺灣人、騙中國人，騙什麼人；第二種叫做金錢轉運；第三種叫做幫派轉型，因為到最後要討錢就要靠幫派。中間這個金錢的轉運就是洗錢，這件事情我們到底要怎麼處理？我跟院長說一個實際的案例，有個朋友，算是朋友他們家的人去洗錢，現在被抓走了，整群在問他們家人：你老公怎麼在做這個什麼詐騙的，這樣對嗎？騙那麼多人，害那麼多人，這樣對嗎？他家人回答：沒有啦，他是在洗錢，他不是在詐騙。然後整場的人都說那不一樣，洗錢跟詐騙不一樣，所以你家人沒有在做詐騙？他家人回答：沒有，我家人是在做洗錢。聽起來洗錢比較高級，詐騙聽起來比較可惡，我為什麼提這件事情？就是他詐騙來的錢總是要把它洗乾淨，洗錢這件事情在臺灣，到底我們政府現在是怎麼處理？你總是要處理這些錢，我假設有一個人被詐騙10萬塊，匯過去了，匯進某一個戶頭，那個戶頭也是中華民國的戶頭嗎，這個錢之後又被洗出來，不管是叫車手領出來，還是網路轉一轉就轉出去了，防不勝防啊！又經過洗錢，洗一洗，洗完了、洗乾淨了，乾淨之後，有可能這些錢回來之後，他買豪宅、買豪車什麼一大堆的，洗錢這件事情，卓院長跟大家講一下，我們現在處理洗錢是怎麼做？洗錢怎麼防制？我們現在到底做了什麼樣的努力？因為洗錢會是詐騙過程中滿重要的一環，洗錢這件事如果可以擋的，可能詐騙的錢在這一關也許可以擋住滿多的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以打詐四法當中，有一個就是洗錢防制法，目前的措施請部長說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，最主要洗錢的部分，委員剛剛提到那個案例，說他兒子在洗錢的那個案例，那就是提供人頭帳戶都是用洗錢防制法來起訴的，因為洗錢防制法是第二十一條跟第二十二條，一個是蒐集這些人頭帳戶或人頭帳號，另外第二十二條就是賣、提供這種人頭帳戶，所以如果是提供人頭帳戶、帳號的這一種行為的話，就是適用洗錢防制法第二十二條來處罰。"],["王委員義川：你說的這些都是很小條的啦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，另外還有一個……"],["王委員義川：譬如我再提供一個郵局的簿子，假設我交出去，你給我3,000，錢就隨便你去洗，這個錢隨便你去那邊轉來轉去，可是這個應該郵局很快就會發現這個戶頭怎麼這麼奇怪，5年沒有進出，突然進來10萬又出去5萬，這個我覺得現有的金融體系，這個事情我判斷應該有守住，而且現在因為很多人沒有去櫃檯了，手機按一按，錢就轉來轉去了，所以我們第一線的金融機構人員很努力，我們常常看電視報導什麼阿婆、歐吉桑去到那邊，金融人員去阻擋他，叫他們不要領，說這個是詐騙，那些報導我們都有看到，但是其實應該是有滿多根本就沒有接觸到人，他就在網路上手機按一按、電腦按一按，錢就轉出去了，後來他才驚覺，他跟他朋友說的時候才驚覺那個就是詐騙啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個可疑……"],["王委員義川：我覺得這個事情，現在人民認為政府總是要想一個辦法，沒錯！那個當事人可能當時被騙，或者是為了貪啦，什麼投資10萬，一個禮拜領1萬回來，好康逗相報啦！我告訴這一個、告訴那一個，說現在再投入20萬，限期3天，如果沒有，這機會就沒了。這種我們都聽很多，但是這種金額數字不大，可是現在很多人是透過網路，錢就出去了，他也救不回來。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個是可疑帳戶，我等一下請主委說明，我知道他在一定時間內重複的使用、固定的金額，或是在短時間內不同地區一直使用，我們都有列入可疑帳戶。詳細狀況再請主委說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，報告委員，有關帳戶的管理，如果今天已經確實有被害人現在是警示帳戶，會全面凍結，再來，如果是可疑帳戶的話，他們透過通報，他就會採取必要行為，因為他還沒有犯罪行為，但他會去做一些管制，如果他覺得可疑，他會通報警察，他可以把這個帳戶作為一個警示。"],["王委員義川：主委，你剛剛講的，前面有一個叫被害人啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，要有被害人去報案。"],["王委員義川：問題就出在這裡嘛！他就被害了，他錢被弄走了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員義川：人民會問一件事情，他們覺得奇怪，家裡的長輩平常和郵局的往來，也沒有在往來5萬、10萬的，每次去領也領個3,000、2,000而已，他現在要轉5萬、10萬，郵局也讓他轉走，這些歐吉桑、歐巴桑都是去郵局領錢，怎麼會被轉出去呢？如果是這樣被轉出去，他就應該報案，報案之後，你們再幫他處理，這樣聽起來好像不太通啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關這部分，誠如剛才委員講的，我們正在做一些……現在不方便在這邊說，我可以私底下再跟委員報告，確實有些銀行已經跟法務部合作做這些事情，細節的部分，我們已經在進行中。"],["王委員義川：很好！我今天就是要聽這句話，剛剛我們聽卓院長的報告，裡面寫得鉅細靡遺，這對詐騙集團來說叫做寶典，讓他們知道中華民國政府已經知道這些，詐騙集團之所以可以當詐騙集團，頭腦可能跟我們不太一樣。如果像主委剛剛說的，有些事情現在已經在做了，但沒有說出來，防範在前，所以當詐騙集團決定要往那條路走的時候，發現被我們堵住了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們是全方位做很多事情，但我們不會對外說明。"],["王委員義川：OK，這很好。最後我還是要建議卓院長跟我們的團隊，不要再糾結在這些統計金額、數量、圖表上，不要再糾結在這些事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一段時間我們對於工作人員的檢查報告，我剛剛有說過，這個數字不代表任何成果。"],["王委員義川：因為這些數字會上上下下，可能一個突發事件，數字就忽然跳上來，有可能我們很努力就降下去，可是不代表這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們內部必須做一些考核，用這個來考核，但對外絕不承認它是一個什麼樣的成果。"],["王委員義川：對啦！就是院長不用糾結這個，很多委員會問你要打幾分？到底有在做嗎？有進步嗎？有改善嗎？這些數字內部參考……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員義川：也不用特別去說：唉唷！針對詐騙已經成功攔阻幾件、已經是多少金額、減少多少人被害。對被詐騙的人和被詐騙的家庭來說，這些數字對他沒有意義。"],["卓院長榮泰：了解，我有重複強調這個部分。"],["王委員義川：對他有意義的是兩件事；第一，被騙的錢可以討回來；第二，不希望有人再像他一樣被騙了。所以他會問政府，既然我的案子已經發生了，那以後會不會有別人再被騙？政府到底做了什麼事情？剛才彭主委也說了，很多事情現在正在做，就是我們努力去做，把事情做好，但真的不要再計較圖表上的那些數字跟KPI，以免搞到最後大家都在做表面功夫。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員義川：這些事情跟院長提醒，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長和相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢，鍾佳濱委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}},{"id":"163524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6a52088846c136c9518cf3659852ed250fb168977f54a35c27e9217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請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":34.858,"end":57.227,"text":"劉委員好 院長好那本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題還造成的財損的部分來請教於您再來我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候就宣告了打詐原理那您去年就任就已經通過了打詐的新的四法"},{"start":57.927,"end":75.44,"text":"那也後來有2.0的版本也出現了但是呢我們可以看到到上個月的財損還是到85.4億那麼下一頁我們可以看到的是這個每天都還超過了2億的這樣的一個財損那這個是最重要的在本黨的一個"},{"start":78.029,"end":100.502,"text":"診斷當中發現到最重要的成效有限是因為民眾對政府的誠信充滿了不信任施政就有過度的包裝跟話術的問題我們現在就繼續往下看行政院你自己本身的打詐架構當中有了市詐 堵詐 防詐 阻詐跟懲詐的部分當然最重要的是市詐請問您"},{"start":102.443,"end":107.219,"text":"院長這四五個步驟裡面哪一個是最重要的是不是市長"},{"start":108.137,"end":136.267,"text":"每一個環節都重要有源頭到下游 全部都重要有市詐就會降低案件的發生好 我覺得是從第一步來講沒錯 第一步你說的市詐非常重要所以我們就必須要了解市詐的重點是什麼包括你的打詐成果包括你常常說要強調源頭管理那我們現在看到市詐竟然是預防於先我們看到基本內容當中詐騙本身有幾個部分第一個部分就是"},{"start":137.047,"end":159.439,"text":"誇大的謊言製造第二個部分是設計騙局第三個是導致財損這是非常重要的情況那我們就繼續來看那就用這樣的架構我們就來看看民進黨本身你卓院長的這個政策幫他們看到好多項包括的是在看到的是在財化法當中造成的非常多的一個民怨還包括在"},{"start":160.299,"end":178.712,"text":"重視到光電呢但是卻造成台南的這個光電爐炸案這郭齋清的這個非法的掩埋等等還有包括21的這個非法獲利那我們再往下一頁看到的是特別是在現在進入到非核家園強調的達成了但是20%的要再生能源"},{"start":179.612,"end":202.712,"text":"那又看到的是但是實際上在現在只有16%的再生能源部分還造成了很多的影響企業的配電我們再繼續往下看看到的是在這次的颱風當中有出現到了這麼多的光電海溫 新溫光電廠當中12天之內都還沒有再清洗我們繼續再往下看的時候他都已經清理完畢在集中在一個站置場上"},{"start":203.995,"end":225.789,"text":"對但是還是沒有處理完備好這部分我們繼續往下看這一部分呢民進黨的話術這邊就呈現到在20242025我們再看看這次的颱風當中呢也強調說風光發電瞬間的這個風速呢是非常高到15.2%等等的但事實上這些的剛才說那兩個在台南跟嘉義的光電呢通通都是屬於"},{"start":227.011,"end":234.405,"text":"在清理的部分包括之前用實驗性的都要花到3到5億這部分然後還要造成的環境的汙染"},{"start":235.526,"end":263.971,"text":"大家可以看到的是剛才所說的部分可以看到是一個誇大的說很好很好光電很好這真的有它的好處但是被誇大了看到這部分造成了災損的部分我們看往下的這部分好那繼續再想到在再生能源的部分行政院長主任院長你在當初有呈到說在2024的時候2024的時候這個新聞當中你說的再生能源的這個成本一定會降下來那"},{"start":264.711,"end":282.941,"text":"這一部分我們可以看到是根本就經不起在風災上面的檢驗根本還沒有準備好那測試當中呢還沒有準備好發電都已經有虧損的這個情況出現了報告委員風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話實驗性質的設備吧可能要調整一下"},{"start":287.472,"end":305.226,"text":"不需要我現在就說事實上我們看到就是我剛剛特別是指剛剛那兩個那兩個的養魚重電的場合所以沒有問題好那我們繼續往下看以現在台電我們看到的發電成本的數據來看在最近的台電的網站當中所呈現的這個數據當中呢平均的"},{"start":306.787,"end":333.421,"text":"發電購電成本是3.19但是再生能源還是到5.6我覺得是特別是針對到外部的購電的成本這些部分好那我們知道的是請問鄭敬請問卓院長一個問題再生能源的成本是需要考量的沒有錯可是重要我們知道核電的成本這部分你看到的是請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎CPT請出現核核端的基金有累積相當對"},{"start":335.131,"end":352.473,"text":"有放進去嘛 對不對所以他現在的價格已經是像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的是不是才一點多塊錢而且他已經加入到這個計價當中把唯一後端的處理基金放進去除了處理之外 他呈現的安全上的考量"},{"start":352.833,"end":377.627,"text":"是我們要優先考量所以我們是說有核安有核廢的處理還有全民的高度共識是我們對現在傳統能源的看法以及我們對新式能源願意來接觸的一個態度沒有錯你這樣講再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情但是我們現在繼續看到但是在目前的部分我們看到的是剛才就出現到在撥補台電1000億的招商的這個情況之下"},{"start":378.807,"end":407.987,"text":"你自己說的調整電價呢恐釀成呢就是三個一千億之後呢就會調整電價會讓人物價的上漲但是這民眾看起來就是怎麼樣就是你在恐嚇民眾這一部分因為在野黨的部分沒有刪就是把它刪除掉了再說你們刪除了不去做撥補了之後那會有上漲電價還會有造成物價上漲其實就像剛才我說的整個大片的過程當中就是"},{"start":408.907,"end":435.928,"text":"就是一個誇大的一個說法之後然後事實上面不是造成這樣然後最後造成了災損當然我們很清楚的知道我們今天我用這個方式教訓大家講的是卓榮泰政府所做的示威是一個當然是一個政府但是他最重要的是他所做的行為其實跟詐騙集團的思想法是很相近的我覺得剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單一般人都會懂因為他就是一個邏輯"},{"start":437.148,"end":452.601,"text":"我們敢讓台電的財務狀況比較健全我在電價審議委員會裡面的討論他就會認為台電可以抑制但如果不是的話電價委員會有他的考量我現在讓你看看下一頁的地方我們看到到2019年2019年"},{"start":456.003,"end":480.77,"text":"對 說109年 2020年的時候蔡總統在說了2050、2025年的時候再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會他要把台灣打造成亞洲的綠能發展中心那這個地方是他2020年說的那我們繼續往下看我們現在風電的增加量"},{"start":482.349,"end":506.327,"text":"經濟部統治 我們風電的增加量那個時候到現在是世界第一位但我們不是以此自滿我們要做更多安全的能源分布所以您就講到 就算是這樣子也只要部分可是其他的工作機會產值這些部分通通一直講到再生能力 現在只講到風電再生能力有非常多種所以我們繼續講就是你是誇大不實的這部分就跟詐騙警察所做的很相近第二部分我們在看到的是"},{"start":507.248,"end":533.535,"text":"上個月本席在活客會的這個質詢當中呈現到說要他呈現做科學園區的用水用電包括是再生能源是不是能夠供應到台灣的科學園區的需求結果拿到三頁的這樣的內容事實上就看出來的是對於再生能源的供應他沒有說得清楚更重要的是在下一個部分看到的是在科學園區的部分我們看到這張圖是非常重要的"},{"start":534.415,"end":547.749,"text":"可以看到在生能源發展這邊呈現出來的是支持資料在2025年的時候是330億度左右這部分好那我們可以看到是台積電它本身在台灣就要用到250億度電"},{"start":550.202,"end":551.982,"text":"所以我們要增加開發更多的再生能源"},{"start":579.162,"end":588.935,"text":"是沒錯但是我跟你講現在謝謝院長但是我們繼續往下看同樣的可能又是在騙局的製造了我們看看這張圖當中呈現出來的"},{"start":590.896,"end":614.019,"text":"我可以為了事實上面呈現出來是說在現在的電網問題在上面不生產出來但是你要把輸電輸到廠商那邊去啊可是在我可能網站當中呈現出來是所有的網路的潰線的部分呢再生能源網站呢再生能源的電網最多到203年2032年之後才能達成7年之後所以現在在這能源是"},{"start":615.24,"end":618.842,"text":"所以我們要求拜託給台電多一點支持就是讓他增加電網的韌性時間暫停"},{"start":638.035,"end":652.303,"text":"委員 容許我提醒一下我們今天根據職宣刑事法第17條邀請行政院率委員來報告題目是打詐策略那個 院長我們有考慮過這個問題我說明一下因為本身"},{"start":653.737,"end":681.414,"text":"行政院就是一個非常重要的一個能夠讓人家信任而且能夠說你在政策部分所以這部分如果本身卓院長行政院的部分他本身就是一個製造謊言 製造誇大言辭甚至還造成人民財損他本身不是最大的一個製造中心嗎我想就尊重容我提醒你 如果說你針對能源問題我們立法院大家形成共識再請卓院長來報告能源問題"},{"start":682.395,"end":690.665,"text":"我觉得这样子比较名符相识好那我可以很快吗能源我觉得这个名符不是我们很多过去"},{"start":691.144,"end":716.662,"text":"有可能雞飛塵世如果特別提醒你我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的今天主題打炸七列策略好不好謝謝請繼續謝謝韓院長才是好那是我尊重那個院長的這樣的但是我這邊部分有一個很快的就會帶過去好不好那這地方我們看到是剛才再生能源的部分有包括的是有再生能源但是我們可以看到的是再生能源因為往"},{"start":717.483,"end":736.381,"text":"往潰線的部分的一個差異性所以他沒辦法供給那最重要是剛才的部分大家就知道再生能源當中中午的9點到下午的2點當中就是非常多的一個潰線的部分非常多的再生能源但是這部分台電就是要不費給到發電業者去了"},{"start":737.102,"end":756.469,"text":"台電負責半夜月整這就是那其他部分在晚上的跟凌晨的時候呢就是會補上的這邊有火力去就是造成的台電虧損最重要的原因那我再必須從企業部分去講的是在於企業部分看到他還是要要複合他國外去做出口的時候他必須要有再生能源憑證那我們繼續往下看"},{"start":757.009,"end":770.335,"text":"可是再生能源憑證他必須要能夠這個電力呢是能夠真的有用的目前台灣的再生能源的憑證當中因為會線真的沒辦法到達所以他只能在台灣用但是最像台積電其他的"},{"start":772.04,"end":795.635,"text":"廠商他輸出國外的有外銷的部分他就沒辦法達到國際間的再生能源憑證那就會出現到非常大的問題就是說台灣現在的再生能源的環境並沒有去撐他的對他的這個在國際間的出口是有幫助的他沒辦法達到廠商的需求這部分更重要的還有一個部分再生能源剛才已經說了是"},{"start":796.716,"end":823.186,"text":"屬於一般的我們它的再生能源可是現在最重要的在於說再生能源如果到二再生能源它的量的話其實越受制於地形當地環境的差異性更重要的現在是要有所謂的非碳的全時的24小時7天能夠用的這樣子的一個能源在它才能夠因應國際間的需求但是這部分也是由聯合國跟國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的這樣一個部分"},{"start":823.706,"end":844.785,"text":"我們繼續再往下看在這個情況之前的國科會也提到了在廠商的外移這邊我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的台積電的外移到我們方向雖然涉及到了關稅的問題雖然關稅的問題可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實大家往下看到這個部分在全球的分布當中台積電要去"},{"start":846.431,"end":867.914,"text":"德國了德國他德國完整的跟他講可以的我們可以百分之百的供應到再生能源但日本的部分呢在熊本那但是他是用九州的這個整個電網裡面供應他也是再生能源也是沒有問題的然後在亞利桑那當中呢這個整個州這部分核能"},{"start":869.075,"end":888.221,"text":"因為供給他在積載電力之後他的再生能源也是可以的那最重要的是要跟大家講的是當芬蘭呢這個是大家知道北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家他現在更是全世界第二大的這個核電生產國那降低了75%的一個建價成本這部分也是供參考"},{"start":889.401,"end":908.767,"text":"當然這部分我們的銀長佐的現在代表進到芬蘭去了這部分可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民的這個共樂的時候可以講到說這部分他在一個核電這麼高的地方事實上是要去了解到的那最重要講到這邊的部分是要跟大家跟院長你要做一個資訊"},{"start":910.467,"end":937.913,"text":"因為您行政院民進黨的這個政府當中呢就是為了政策選票在說謊誇大不實的然後找出錯誤的一個政策出現導致的國家的財損還會繼續台電的擴大那企業就不敢出走包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子因為剛才所說的台積台灣並沒有辦法提供的這樣足夠的再生能源如果又沒有所謂的非碳的電力而且24小時7天的去這樣做是不行的"},{"start":938.473,"end":958.422,"text":"所以在剛才的這部分詐騙的一個行為當中就是誇大不實事實上跟相反然後還包括是後面這部分那當然就說人民就會覺得您就是民進黨政府可能就是一個非常大的一個詐騙期的也就是因為這樣的情況之下他沒有辦法去得到信念包括剛才的"},{"start":960.336,"end":985.823,"text":"胡志強我也說了當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策的上面大大增這個效果那我們繼續看到的是目前台灣最大的民怨是什麼是對等關稅能源問題跟詐騙跟詐騙的問題那因為缺乏政府人民缺乏對政府的信任只想優點的這個謊言而且忽視財產這個事實那老實講就是一個詐騙這種情形那這個地方怎麼去改變呢"},{"start":986.943,"end":1011.514,"text":"打詐最重要在這裡就是希望是說包括的是希望在這邊我們繼續往下看的是希望能夠誠實的拿去處理對不起委員你剛剛的這一席講話不僅違反院長的才識也完全沒有邏輯我實在沒有辦法理解好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了 劉書斌委員謝謝好 謝謝你的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1928,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時25分）主席好，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：劉委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：院長好。本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題，還有造成財損的部分來請教您。我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候，就宣告了打詐元年，您去年就任就已經通過了「打詐新4法」嘛！後來2.0的版本也出現了，但是我們可以看到，到上個月的財損還是有85.4億；下一頁，我們可以看到每天都還是超過了2億的財損，最重要的在本黨的一個診斷當中，發現到打詐成效有限是因為民眾對政府誠信充滿了不信任，施政有過度包裝跟話術的問題。行政院自己本身的打詐組織架構當中，有識詐、堵詐、防詐、阻詐跟懲詐的部分，當然最重要的是識詐，請問院長這5個步驟裡面，哪一個是最重要的？是不是識詐？"],["卓院長榮泰：每一個環節都重要，由源頭到下游全部都重要，有識詐就會降低案件的發生，有懲詐才會有……"],["劉委員書彬：我知道，從第一步來講沒錯，第一部您說到識詐非常重要，所以我們就必須要來了解識詐的重點是什麼？包括打詐成果及你強調的源頭管理。我們現在看到識詐竟然預防於先，在識詐的基本內容當中，詐騙本身有幾個部分：第一個部分是誇大的謊言製造、第二個部分是設計騙局、第三個是導致財損，這是非常重要的情況。我們就用這樣的架構來看看民進黨本身及卓院長的相關政策，這當中看到很多項，包括在財劃法當中造成非常多的民怨，還包括雖重視光電，但是卻造成臺南的光電爐渣案，也就是郭再欽的非法掩埋，而非法獲利21億等等。","下一頁，特別看到的是現在進入到非核家園，執政黨強調2025年一定達成，但還要20%的再生能源。實際上，現在只有16%的再生能源，還造成了很多企業配電的影響。再繼續往下看，在這次的颱風當中，在新塭光電場有這麼多毀損的光電板，颱風後的12天都還沒有清理完。繼續再往下看……"],["卓院長榮泰：它都已經清理完畢，已經集中在一個暫置場。"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是它沒有處理完備。繼續往下看，在民進黨的話術呈現在2025年的這次颱風當中，強調風光發電瞬時最大值是非常高的，有到15.2%等等。但事實上，剛才提到的在臺南跟嘉義兩個光電場受損的光電板，在清理的預算部分，包括之前他們實驗性的都要花到3到5億不等，還造成環境污染。剛才所提的部分，大家可以看到是一個誇大的說法：很好、很好，光電很好。再生能源有它的好處，但是被誇大了，這部分造成很多的災損。我們往下看，在再生能源的部分，行政院卓榮泰院長你在當初在2024的這個新聞當中，就說再生能源的成本一定會降下來，這部分我們可以看到根本就禁不起在風災上面的檢驗，根本還沒有準備好。測試當中還沒有準備好發電，都已經有虧損的情況出現了……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，風災檢驗不堪一擊這句話，可能要調整一下……"],["劉委員書彬：實驗性質的設備吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：可能要調整一下。"],["劉委員書彬：不需要，事實上我們看到就是我特別指剛剛那兩個養魚種電的場合，所以沒有問題。我們繼續往下看。以現在台電的發電成本數據來看，在最近的台電網站所呈現的數據當中，平均的發電購電成本是3.19，但是再生能源還是到5.6，而且特別是針對外部的購電成本這些部分。請問卓院長一個問題，再生能源的成本是需要考量沒有錯，可是重要的是核電成本這部分，請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：核後端的基金有相當累積。"],["劉委員書彬：有放進去嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["劉委員書彬：所以它現在的價格已經像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的，是不是才一點多塊錢？而且它已經加入了這個計價當中，把後端處理基金放進去，這部分是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，除了處理之外，它呈現的有關安全上的部分是我們要優先考量的，所以有核安、有核廢的處理，還有全民的高度共識，是我們現在對傳統能源的看法以及對新式能源願意接觸的一個態度。"],["劉委員書彬：好，沒有錯，你這樣講，再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情，但是我們現在繼續看剛才就出現的，在撥補台電1,000億遭刪的情況之下，院長，你自己說調整電價恐釀成……就是刪了1,000億之後會調整電價而釀成物價上漲，但是民眾看起來是怎麼樣？就是你在恐嚇民眾！因為在野黨對這部分把它刪除掉了，再來你們因刪除了、不做撥補之後，電價會上漲而造成物價上漲。就像剛才我說的，整個詐騙的過程當中，就是在一個誇大的說法之後而事實上不是這樣，最後造成了災損。當然，我們很清楚的知道，今天我用這個方式要跟大家講的是，卓榮泰政府所做的事……當然是一個政府，但是最重要的是他所做的行為，其實跟詐騙集團的手法是很相近的。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單，一般人都會懂，因為它就是一個邏輯。我們讓台電的財務狀況比較健全，在電價審議委員會裡面的討論，就會認為台電可以抑制，但如果不是的話，電價委員會有它的考量……"],["劉委員書彬：好，沒問題，我現在讓你看下一頁，2020年蔡總統說2025年再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額、1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會，把臺灣打造成「亞洲綠能發展中心」，這是他2020年說的，我們繼續往下看……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們現在風電的增加量，經經濟部統計那個時候到現在是世界第一位，但我們不是以此自滿，我們要做更多安全的能源分布。"],["劉委員書彬：就算是這樣子，也只要部分，可是其他的工作機會、產值等等通通……而且再生能源，你剛才只講到風電，再生能源有非常多種，所以你誇大不實的這部分，就跟詐騙集團所做的很相近。","第二部分，上個月本席在國科會的質詢當中，要他呈現科學園區的用水用電，包括再生能源是不是能夠供應臺灣科學園區的需求，結果拿到3頁這樣的內容，事實上看出來對於再生能源的供應，他沒辦法說清楚。更重要的是在下一個部分，看到的是在科學園區的部分，我們看到這張圖是非常重要的，可以看到再生能源發展在這邊呈現出來的事實資料，在2025年的時候是330億度左右，我們可以看到台積電本身在臺灣就要用到250億度電，如果在科學園區的話，事實上要更多了，而且目前只供應到25%的部分。如果到2030年的話再生能源是400億度，但台積電就要450億度，本身就不能供給台積電的需求，這地方就呈現了再生能源不足。卓院長，你知道再生能源不足，對廠商會有什麼樣的影響，尤其是外銷導向的？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們要開發更多的再生能源。"],["劉委員書彬：是，沒錯，但是我跟你講，同樣的可能又是在製造騙局了，我們看看這張圖呈現出來的是，現在的電網部分，再生能源生產不出來，但是你要把電輸到廠商那邊去，可是在國科會的網站呈現出來的是再生能源的電網要到2032年之後才能達成，7年之後，所以現在再生能源，對廠商而言是很大的問題，沒辦法達成的，饋線在科學園區的供應上是有問題的。還有很多事情沒說，我們繼續往下看。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們拜託給台電多一點支持，就是要增加電網的韌性。"],["劉委員書彬：但是現在就是不足，最重要的是，我現在看到再生能源的問題還包括下面這裡，可以看到的是……"],["主席：時間暫停，劉委員，容許我提醒一下，我們今天根據立法院職權行使法第十七條，邀請行政院院長率閣員來報告，題目是打詐策略。"],["劉委員書彬：院長，我們有考慮過這個問題，我說明一下，因為行政院就是一個非常重要的、要能夠讓人家信任，而且在政策部分要能夠說明的機關。"],["主席：我知道。"],["劉委員書彬：所以如果行政院、卓院長本身就在製造謊言，誇大其辭，甚至還造成人民財損，他本身不就是最大的一個詐騙中心嗎？我想就尊重……"],["主席：容我提醒你，如果你針對能源問題，我們立法院大家形成共識，再請卓院長來報告能源問題，我覺得這樣子比較名實相符。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我可以很快嗎？"],["主席：今天我們的題目是打詐，全部問到能源，我覺得這是名實不符，過去可能有很多積非成是，容我特別提醒你，我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的主題打詐策略，好不好？謝謝，請繼續。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝韓院長裁示。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我尊重院長的裁示，但是我這部分很快的就會帶過去，好不好？這裡我們看到再生能源的部分，再生能源因為饋線網路的差異性，它沒辦法供給，最重要的是，大家都知道上午9點到下午2點當中，就是非常多的再生能源呈現出來，但是這個部分，台電就是要付費給發電業者，其他在晚上跟凌晨的時候，就是會補上火力發電，這就是造成台電虧損最重要的原因。我必須要從企業的部分去講，企業出口到國外的時候，必須要有再生能源憑證，可是再生能源憑證必須要這個電力是真正有用的，目前的再生能源憑證，因為饋線真的沒辦法到達，所以它只能在臺灣用，所以像台積電，輸出國外的、外銷的廠商就沒辦法拿到符合國際標準的再生能源憑證，那就會出現非常大的問題。臺灣現在的再生能源環境並沒有辦法去支撐廠商出口國際，沒辦法達到廠商的需求。更重要的還有一點，我剛才已經說了，再生能源是屬於一般的我們看到的再生能源，可是再生能源的量因為受制於地形，當地環境的差異性，更重要的是我們現在是要有所謂的非碳的、全時的、24小時、7天能夠用的能源，它可能要因應國際間的需求，但是這部分也是由聯合國、國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的。在這個情況下，之前的國科會也提到了廠商的外移，我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的，台積電的外移雖然涉及關稅問題，可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實，在全球的分布當中，台積電要去德國了，德國完整的跟它講，可以的，我們可以百分之百的供應再生能源；日本的部分在熊本，它用九州的電網供應再生能源，也是沒有問題的；然後在亞利桑那當中，整個州這部分，核能因為供給它基載電力之後，它的再生能源也是可以的。最重要的是要跟大家講，大家知道芬蘭在北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家，他現在更是全世界第二大核電生產國，降低了75%電價成本，這部分也供參考。當然這一部分，林昶佐代表已經到芬蘭去了，可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民共樂的時候可以講到，他在核電方面這麼高的一個地方，事實上是要去了解的。","最重要的，講到這邊是要給大家、院長一項資訊，因為您行政院、民進黨的這個政府當中，就是為了政策選票在說謊並誇大不實，導致錯誤政策出現，導致了國家財損還會繼續、台電方面的擴大，那企業就必然出走。包括我剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子，因為剛才所說的，臺灣並沒有辦法提供足夠的再生能源，如果又沒有所謂非碳的電力，而且24時、7天這樣……是不行的。所以在剛才的這部分，詐騙行為當中，就是誇大不實，事實上是相反，還包括後面這個部分，當然人民就會覺得民進黨政府可能就是非常大的一個詐騙集團，也就是因為在這樣的情況之下，他沒有辦法去得到……包括剛才羅智強委員也說了，當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策上面，就沒有辦法達成這個效果。","我們繼續看到，目前臺灣最大的民怨是什麼？是對等關稅、能源問題跟詐騙的問題，因為人民缺乏對政府的信任，「只講優點的謊言」，而且忽視財損的事實，那老實講就是「詐騙」的這種情形。這個地方怎麼樣去改變呢？打詐最重要的是在這裡，希望能夠誠實地去處理……"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，委員，你剛剛的這一席講話，不僅違反院長的裁示，也完全沒有邏輯，我實在沒有辦法理解。謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝，辛苦了，劉書彬委員，謝謝你的質詢。也謝謝卓院長、相關首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘。10分鐘之後，我們請王義川委員準備質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時42分）","繼續開會（11時52分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101",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汐止老夫婦輕生"},{"start":403.1,"end":430.798,"text":"台北市內湖區一對母女被騙一千兩百萬在家輕生情侶慘遭被騙走七百多萬雙雙輕生基隆曲姓女子被騙走畢生積蓄五百五十一萬輕生死亡院長還需要我繼續說下去嗎我知道案件確實很多那這個表格我只強調一點因為2024年我們統計數字改變所以會增加很多案件"},{"start":431.738,"end":454.007,"text":"我告訴你這個是事實因為你就知道我通常會突襲你我表格要放上去我現在還在講案件數字我待會再告訴你我也聽到前面你們答詢的回答你有什麼話要對這些受害者家屬說受害者說他們在天之靈說"},{"start":456.288,"end":477.438,"text":"請問他們要打幾分啊我們當然非常不捨但我們覺得政府應該更有所作為全球犯罪行為在台灣我們不能置外於全球這個犯罪行為之外院長 我告訴你零分 零分 零分好了 剛剛院長跟我講不能只看個案所以數字拿給你看這數字我不一一念啦"},{"start":478.885,"end":500.428,"text":"如果按照這個內政部警政署的打詐儀表版我只能用觸目驚心來形容當然我也聽到剛剛部長的解釋統計方法不同統計方法不同但是數字總是正確 總是真的吧不是假消息吧數字是正確那我告訴你我也聽到剛剛部長跟院長你們回答的數字"},{"start":502.398,"end":530.764,"text":"很抱歉 我也不客氣的說讓人民來看看他相信是法務部的數字還是警政署打詐於表白的數字哪個數字更接近我剛剛前面講的這一群因為政府打詐沒有做到好結果被詐騙集團詐騙到走投無路舉家輕生你問問他們他們相信這個數字還是相信法務部你的數字"},{"start":532.284,"end":559.118,"text":"人民的感受是什麼而且重點 這打造儀標板你們有講說下半年統計嘛對不對 去年 是嗎所以回溯以前的東西嘛 是不是不是回溯 它是用計算方式本來是以犯罪者 炸船來算它算一個案件現在是以受害者來算可能有十個 可能有三十個案件無論如何 我告訴院長跟部長"},{"start":561.807,"end":589.981,"text":"當然賴總統上任才一年多了其實說真的這打仗問題我們已經關心很久了民進黨是執政九年了九年了要嘛今天賴清德總統沒做好要嘛蔡英文總統沒做好但不管哪個總統沒做好都是民進黨政府沒做好這一點我希望能夠記在心上那我要問一下我們政府真的百分之百用心在打擊詐騙嗎"},{"start":592.233,"end":613.773,"text":"我們很積極在做這個事情我告訴你 也許你很積極那有一個人跟委員報告你要不要讓我講事實上我們是全方位的在做一個處理在一個 全面的在打砸我跟你在時髮法治委會譬如說台北地檢署最近不是有一件那個斬金專案我的質詢時間有效不是刻意要打斷我沒有否定"},{"start":614.173,"end":641.408,"text":"我沒有否定今天第一線人員的努力啊我剛剛有否定嗎我沒有否定啊讓我問問題好不好可以嗎 讓我問問題我沒有否定 你不用急著defend啊真的不用急 我也沒有否定辦案人員的辛勞我們都知道 我也肯定啊我要問的只有一個人不是你 也不是卓院長我要問的是賴清德總統"},{"start":644.291,"end":660.241,"text":"當這些枉死的人期待政府交出詐騙成績單過去一年多賴總統忙什麼你告訴我忙三件事情大罷免大罷免大罷免我跟你講院長聽我講完你再評論"},{"start":665.199,"end":686.849,"text":"如果他用大罷免十分之一的心思好好打仗也許往死的幽魂可以少一些我要謝謝台灣人民用25比0敲醒執政者敲醒賴總統謝謝他們 我要 院長你跟總統都要謝謝台灣人民"},{"start":687.791,"end":716.369,"text":"為什麼是25比0 你知道嗎我走在路上 每天站在路上早上五點多出門 晚上十一二點回家民眾心心念念 盼望的是政府好好打仗不要搞大鬥爭25比0就是提醒我們的政府把所有的心思 百分之百的心思放來好好打仗 放來做關稅的應變放來去治理國政啦"},{"start":717.028,"end":745.511,"text":"我只要一句話去年520之前總統只告訴我強化治安發展經濟是兩項最重要的工作他沒有做其他的交代說到心沒到心不在焉我不敢講說百分之百不在焉但他的心起碼被框了百分之九十在大罷免上並沒有這樣子的你說沒有讓民眾判斷沒有關係因為這個是不可能跟你達成共識我知道"},{"start":746.991,"end":773.963,"text":"我為什麼在質詢要講馬總統防治酒駕的故事啊當酒駕肇事歷史新高的包袱交到馬總統手上的時候他是用什麼心思在降酒駕肇事啊八年任內降幅60%每個月每個月每個月的丁我拜託 我真的拜託院長 也許總統做不到 拜託你做到"},{"start":776.448,"end":793.841,"text":"本來是一件不可能完成的任務你知道嗎但是一個有心的總統就可以做到那我告訴你 我也不客氣的說今天 民進黨九年打詐不利還創造另外一個慘不忍睹的成績單你知道是什麼嗎秀出來沒有 有啊 告訴你衛福部六月公布"},{"start":804.972,"end":827.338,"text":"2024年國人十大死因蓄意自我傷害也就是自殺在14年後重回十大主因十大死因排名第十專家說跟詐騙有關因為很多人人生無望選擇輕生那我告訴你啊"},{"start":829.094,"end":855.565,"text":"這個自殺防制我要再講一個馬總統莫忘世上苦人多親自督導的故事台灣自殺人數在民國在2006年陳水扁執政的時候是達到高峰的4406人歷史新高也一直在國人十大死因當中馬總統上任後積極推動自殺防制工作在他的任內有效降低死亡人數"},{"start":857.164,"end":885.174,"text":"2010年自殺終於退出國人十大死因我在當總統府副秘書長那年比2006年少了700人我要講的事情其實一個很簡單的事情總統的用心院長的用心部長的用心你們多一份用心"},{"start":886.578,"end":910.572,"text":"就少一個家庭破碎你們多一個用心就少一個詐騙去傷害無辜的老百姓至少一件事我相信院長你一定可以跟我達成共識啦現在詐騙真的是國恥沒錯吧是不是啊這也是全球性的犯罪沒錯啊"},{"start":911.482,"end":923.931,"text":"我們台灣真的是國際也很多在講台灣的詐欺不只台灣 全球性都有這樣的工作院長 拜託 放在心上謝謝你我們要努力 我們會努力謝謝委員好 謝謝羅志強委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 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謝謝院長那有請卓院長 謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好好 卓院長早安我想我就藉著這個剛黃珊珊委員提到的165來 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所以我想在針對相關議題進行討論實質政策 我們可以做什麼之前我可不可以拜託部長跟院長我們如何協助165這些現場的工作同仁可以有更好的身心健康支援謝謝委員的關心 我想我們165的第一線的同仁基本上是警政署的保醫總隊那我們現在已經增加到47人"},{"start":278.138,"end":298.287,"text":"這些分三班都非常的辛苦在工作那院長也多次到現場去慰問而且我們採取的是多國的語言包括我們要協助移工或是其他的外國人都包含在內所以我們現在要除了人力增強以外還要增加了就是有關技術面的部分比如說我們把圈存的通報電子化"},{"start":298.767,"end":322.459,"text":"从今年年初的时候已经开始了就是说把它改为由系统的线上作业不需要再用纸本的传真那另外一个呢就是接通率的目前为止已经提升到86.6%那再来就是我们要建置一个新的系统这个新的系统就是刚刚院长有跟各位报告的就是我们想要导入这个AI的人工智慧的技术那重建原有165的系统功能"},{"start":323.459,"end":348.591,"text":"這個就是為了服務165的近線電話裡面能夠馬上得到警政署的協助另外一個也非常謝謝陳委員的關心有關在第一線處理反詐或者是說接聽電話的同仁他們的身心健康我想我們本來就有關注到這一點我們會來持續加強如果有必要的話我們還是會請專業的心理諮商師來介入希望他們能夠保持在職場上面一個健康的狀態"},{"start":349.671,"end":377.269,"text":"對 因為我真的看了這個片子我重複看了兩遍我真的很心疼他們因為做案那邊真的壓力閃打而且可能打進來電話那個人錢其實已經匯款出去了因為現在有非常多詐騙其實是線上匯款不見得是尤其是剛剛院長有講到我們有第一線的銀行人員在阻詐這件事情確實已經受到成效可是其實更多的是數位科技甚至當我們好人端這邊在運用AI不要忘了壞人也在運用AI所以其實有90%是透過線上"},{"start":378.409,"end":392.995,"text":"這件事情所以真的要拜託部長跟院長我想就身心健康這件事情也好技術層面的也好或者是多國語言這些他們現場所增加的服務我們在後端給予他們更多的支持好不好謝謝部長跟謝謝院長那我們接下來看一下謝謝"},{"start":394.437,"end":418.454,"text":"下一張這個數據會說話其實剛剛兩位委員都提到相關數字我要先提醒大家如果我們看111跟112跟113其實數字是又上升又下來那一定這個數字背後代表一些趨勢那趨勢的原因到底是什麼我認為原因非常的複雜多元大概沒有辦法用單一的原因來看可是我要談的是這個是確實全世界的人民在面對的現實"},{"start":419.835,"end":438.292,"text":"如果願意關心國際新聞就知道其實美國這幾年從疫情開始非常多而且針對不同國家不同語言的詐騙也非常非常多那如果我們回到台灣我比較關心的是兒少的部分從詐騙來看兒少怎麼說呢在投影片的左手邊矯正學校的數字"},{"start":440.814,"end":468.593,"text":"29.3%都是跟詐騙有關右手邊是少關所所收容的學生也都跟詐騙有關數字最高也就是說不管是少角校或是部長請回不好意思不管是少角校或是少關所其實都是跟詐騙有關的學生收容最多那關於學生犯罪的部分我認為可以分幾個部分一個是事前預防第二個是行為的處遇第三是後續追蹤我們來看下一張"},{"start":470.606,"end":489.952,"text":"好這一張呢是我們看到少事法我們知道目前針對事前預防的部分我知道現在我們要增加少年前科三年內沒有在因為故意觸犯刑法或法律而受保護處分或刑之宣告者這個門檻我知道我們要調整對不對部長"},{"start":490.757,"end":509.285,"text":"是 這個一定是要做三級的預防這41哨角效裡面的一些很非常重要的一個機制那我想這可以預防也可以在哨角現在可以要做好然後以後就出效的時候能夠跟社會作為現在再一個就學就會可以做一個比較好的一個處理"},{"start":509.625,"end":524.954,"text":"部長你覺得我們做這個修法真的有可以幫助少年詐欺犯罪的預防嗎怎麼說因為我認為詐欺這件事情它的背後因素真的非常非常多容我先往後說第一個我知道其實行政院在今年"},{"start":526.214,"end":551.694,"text":"新政院3月的時候核定了一筆經費是4年內我們要投入76億關於預防兒童及少年犯罪方案14到17年我覺得這件事情非常非常重要為什麼要從修法開始談起因為少年青少年現在儼然成為各式犯罪集團非常重要的工具人因為孩子有這個豁免的條款所以導致於這些黑道這些詐騙集團的大人"},{"start":552.194,"end":576.445,"text":"他們直覺想到可以利用青少年那我知道我們相關的規劃是希望可以從初級預防二級預防到後續孩子們回歸社會回歸家庭回歸社區的時候有一個好的路可以選擇可是我看到相關的困境是當孩子們在面對自己可能變成詐騙集團或是走進去之後發現好像真的有利可圖有甜頭"},{"start":577.205,"end":606.876,"text":"比起他去打工比起他做正常的工作好像容易得多我認為我看見的是孩子們生活的困境他可能是因為家庭的需求家裡面沒有錢急需用錢或者是個人消費慾望的需求他可能很羨慕同學有新的手機新的球鞋對 部長不要懷疑新的球鞋可能五六千塊孩子們很想要或者是情感的需求例如說詐騙集團這些大人真的很會接觸小孩的情緒種種種種的困難其實都不是我們處在光明面的大人"},{"start":607.441,"end":624.615,"text":"可以看得見可以接得住的所以我才會問說我們如何在未來14到1776億防止青少年犯罪這一塊我們加入一個這個部分我剛講的如何接住這些孩子原生社區原生家庭在學校的需求跟困境讓他們有"},{"start":625.476,"end":654.077,"text":"提早理解更多假設我真的加入了詐團假設我真的成為其中犯罪的一份子或是我被關進去之後我在掃腳效我在掃關鎖會發生什麼樣的事情我出來還會面對什麼樣的困境剛剛黃珊珊委員播的那個影片大家只有看見快樂的一面可是壞人都是這樣啊他騙你吃蘋果之前他跟你說蘋果很好吃可是他沒有告訴你你吃了毒蘋果你會發生什麼事情我認為我們要讓孩子及早知道這些事情雖然看起來是"},{"start":654.938,"end":681.017,"text":"有點像恐嚇但我們轉換一個語法轉換一個說法讓孩子知道你犯了錯你犯了罪我們不會因為你是少年就不告訴你可能會有的後果我想拜託法務部在後續114到117年這個四年防治計畫當中如何加入這個部分也就是在三級預防的前兩級初級預防跟二級預防我們提早加入這個觀念給小孩我想聽一下部長您的回應"},{"start":682.178,"end":701.947,"text":"謝謝 的確委員對這個問題很深入了解當然提到的宣導面已經讓小朋友讓學生 兒童 少年聽清楚這個絕對不能夠去吃毒蘋果這個是不要被詐團所利用當車手 當搜捕手甚至提供一些個資的我想這部分我們會全力來做一個"},{"start":703.117,"end":725.057,"text":"一個做一個宣導那我想這邊我們跟主管機關來做一個合作主管機關一定還有教育部教育部還有衛福部內政部勞動部還有法務部這幾個部會那以法務部來講的話我們重要是在少小校跟少關所那也是在學校的這一部分那因為在一個成長在少年這部分"},{"start":725.297,"end":744.257,"text":"我也清楚這個少女私人主流我們法務部是沒辦法去碰這個區塊的我知道 但是我們有更多初級預防跟二級預防嘛這個本來就是跨部會需要一起努力的好不好 我就提出我們的觀察跟問題因為確實少角校跟少關所這幾年也確實被詐騙的孩子們充滿了這個"},{"start":746.639,"end":769.982,"text":"所以你们其实也会很辛苦那我们来看到假设他们真的发生了这些行为然后被放进少教校跟少关所目前我们看到你们相关的辅导的内容我看到有弟子归影片生命重塑灵性生命我知道因为孩子们进来的时间或长或短你们可以发生影响力的时间也或长或短有非常多的变数但我要说我认为相关的课程真的必须要与时俱进"},{"start":770.462,"end":784.238,"text":"到底弟子規我知道我們上次去考察的時候你們跟我說弟子規的老師是有證照的老師但是部長我真心要說弟子規真的是我們這個世代的孩子他們聽得下去的嘛與其叫他們弟子規不如"},{"start":785.719,"end":814.181,"text":"黃珊珊委員剛剛那個影片更有效他們看完之後你們好好的告訴他們你在前面做了這個壞事看似光鮮亮麗但陰暗面黑暗的那一面孩子你們必須承受什麼我認為這個事情搞不好更實際也就是說相關的矯正課程在做行為處遇的階段我認為我們要更加與時俱進更靠近他們不要忘了他們在被放進哨角跟哨關之前他們可是每天拿著手機看短影片"},{"start":814.902,"end":817.279,"text":"的小孩你突然讓他回到這個"},{"start":819.212,"end":845.642,"text":"我們上一個時代在看的弟子規我覺得有嚴重的落差他們根本在裡面就是把眼睛閉起來把耳朵關起來這個要拜託部長所以我認為教化如果要把這麼多課程安排放進來我們的教化人力就要調整輔導人力就要調整可是現在現行我知道國教署有在協助你們但我認為人力是不夠的其實你們自己也非常清楚所以在這個而且這些小孩說實話如果他們在一般校園裡面他們會被放"},{"start":845.942,"end":863.222,"text":"放在所谓二级跟三级的辅导回到学辅法的角度他是属于二级辅导跟三级辅导的对象而二级辅导跟三级辅导他急需要高度的专业去同理他支持他接纳他他才有可能跟我们大人站在一起说好我试试看"},{"start":863.742,"end":883.235,"text":"我來改邪歸正我來努力看看而這個部分可能也是你們現在缺乏的人力我時間有限我是不是就先把問題提出到這裡拜託部長把相關的意見帶回去不管是少角校少關所我們在初級二級三級每一個階段我們都需要足夠多的專業人力來協助這些已經走上"},{"start":884.639,"end":901.657,"text":"不好的路的孩子他們回過頭來他們想要回頭的時候我們大人接得住好不好拜託部長報告委員我曾經要求教育法務部對於經過這些少年處遇的少年犯結束了這個行為處遇之後他進到社會他的再犯率有多高"},{"start":902.372,"end":927.712,"text":"研究一下跟原來我們這些矯正或是關乎的這個制度跟內容是不是相關是不是我們必須從這裡改善來讓他們回去社會之後降低他們的再犯率這個是值得我們研究的我今天只是要他們去做好 謝謝院長所以我很謝謝你們收到我的訊息我對於孩子們的關心希望他們還來得及在成年之前回頭試案要拜託我們大人一起努力 好嗎謝謝院長好 謝謝陳培鈺委員資訊謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":935.595,"end":936.1,"text":"現在在議場二樓旁聽來自"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1830,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時54分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：卓院長，早安。我想我就接著剛剛黃珊珊委員提到的「165」這個部分，請看這一張，這是內政部警政署的「165打詐儀錶板」，我必須要說，這個資訊其實對於非常多人想要認識詐騙是真的很有幫助，現在我的截圖上所顯現的數字是詐騙案件受理數，也就是每一個當天有收到報案的電話，我說的是有收到報案。然後當時我們阻止了多少的金額？其實相關的數字都非常非常清楚，我想我要鼓勵這個部分，因為剛剛院長在做業務報告的時候有提到，然後在回答傅崐萁委員的詢答時也有說，我們必須要持續給予現場工作人員鼓勵這件事情，因為詐騙的科技、詐騙的新法，說實話是日新月異。而且從古至今，不管是童話故事、民間真實的生活，其實壞人走得都比好人還要快，這個現實是我們目前在做打詐業務最大的困境。所以要拜託行政院，繼續支持這個打詐儀錶板的工作，我認為這個非常重要。","下一張，我覺得這個也很棒，就是最新的詐騙案例，然後有非常非常多的故事，甚至還有語音播放。這一次為了要做這個打詐專報跟院長您的對話，我自己很認真看了這個網站，看了很多，我覺得這件事情，我們還有沒有機會透過數位影音化？因為說實話，大家現在每天回到家滑手機，可能沒有力氣看這麼多文字。我不確定像這樣的文字內容，或者是原來這麼多奇奇怪怪的詐騙案例，我們可以怎麼樣讓更多國人看見，讓更多國人知道。","我先跟部長和院長分享一個案例，這個「另一種注目」是一個電視公司拍的專輯，大概有30分鐘。他們說這個記者在這裡面連續拍了48個小時，他們紀錄了165接線人員的辛勞跟他們所面對的困境。我想我必須要幫他們拜託部長跟院長，有沒有可能，我自己從這個片子裡面發現，後來也上網查了一些困境。一個是他們其實在第一線每天平均要接超過1,500通電話，這是有接進來的，然後在這個電話當中他們不只是告訴當事人說：「你真的被騙囉，你真的被騙了。」他們還得去說服當事人說：「沒有啦！他真的是騙你的。」我覺得我光是看那個螢光幕前的故事，我都覺得心累。這個30分鐘的紀錄片裡面還拍到，長官為了照顧他們的身心健康，還有放了一些例如夾娃娃機，然後現場如何讓他們的工作狀態是舒適的。可是說實話，在接到這麼多詐騙電話的過程當中，我認為他們不僅心累，身體也勞累，但我們有沒有機會再增加現場的服務量能？這是第一個。","第二個，我知道內政部其實長期有在關心員警的身心健康，這個非常重要。但我也很想跟部長您討論，我認為在165專線第一線接電話的這些同仁，他們的身心健康所需要的服務可能跟第一線員警的狀態是不一樣的。例如這裡面有好幾個工作人員講的話令我非常印象深刻，其中有一個人說，他下班騎摩托車回家的時候都覺得自己有幻聽，一直聽到電話聲。我也可以想見，如果我每天在那邊排班要8到10個小時，電話一進來我就要立刻按，平均一通電話可能20分鐘，我要勸那個人，甚至我要教那個人怎麼報案，甚至樓上還有負責比較高科技處理的人還要下來應對現場接到的那些狀況。也就是說，他們在現場接到的狀況是已經看得懂的詐騙，還有看不懂的詐騙，還有打電話進來的人的身心疲勞這件事情，其實讓所有的工作人員非常非常辛苦。所以我想，在針對相關議題進行討論實質政策我們可以做什麼之前，我可不可以拜託部長跟院長，我們如何協助165這些現場的工作同仁，可以有更好的身心健康支援？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心。我想我們165第一線的同仁基本上是警政署的保一總隊，我們現在已經增加到47人，這些人員分三班都非常辛苦的在工作。院長也多次到現場去慰問。而且我們採取的是多國語言，包括我們要協助移工或是其他的外國人也都包含在內。我們現在除了人力要增強以外，還要增加有關技術面的部分。譬如說，我們把圈存的通報電子化，從今年年初的時候已經開始了，就是說把它改為由系統的線上作業，不需要再用紙本的傳真。","另外一個就是接通率，目前為止已經提升到86.6%。再來就是我們要建置一個新的系統，這個新的系統就是剛剛院長有跟各位委員報告的，就是我們想要導入AI人工智慧的技術，重建原有165的系統功能，這個就是為了服務這些165的進線電話裡面，能夠馬上得到警政署的協助。","另外一個也非常謝謝陳委員的關心，有關在第一線處理反詐或是接聽電話同仁的身心健康。我們本來就有關注到這一點，我們會來持續加強，如果有必要的話，我們還會請專業的心理諮商師來介入，希望他們能夠在職場上保持一個健康的狀態。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，因為我真的看了這個片子，我重複看了兩遍，我真的很心疼他們。因為坐在那邊真的壓力山大，而且可能打電話進來的那個人的錢其實已經匯款出去了，因為現在有非常多詐騙其實是線上匯款，尤其是剛剛院長有講到，我們有第一線的銀行人員在阻詐，確實已經收到成效，可是其實更多的是數位科技，甚至當我們好人端這邊在運用AI，不要忘了壞人也在運用AI，所以其實有90%是透過線上，所以真的要拜託部長跟院長，我想就身心健康這件事情也好，技術層面也好，或者是多國語言，這些他們現場所增加的服務，我們在後端給予他們更多的支持好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長、謝謝院長。我們接下來看下一張，這個數據會說話，其實剛剛兩位委員都提到相關數字，我要先提醒大家，如果我們看111年跟112年跟113年，其實數字是又上升又下來，這個數字背後一定代表一些趨勢，那趨勢的原因到底是什麼？我認為原因非常的複雜、多元，大概沒有辦法用單一的原因來看，可是我要談的是，這確實是全世界的人民在面對的現實，如果願意關心國際新聞就知道，其實美國這幾年從疫情開始就非常多，而且針對不同國家、不同語言的詐騙也非常非常多，如果我們回到臺灣，我比較關心的是兒少的部分，從詐騙來看兒少，怎麼說呢？請看投影片左手邊矯正學校的數字，有29.3%都是跟詐騙有關，右手邊是少觀所所收容的學生，數字最高的也都跟詐騙有關，也就是說，不管是少矯校或是……部長請回，不好意思。不管是少矯校或是少觀所，其實都是跟詐騙有關的學生收容最多。關於學生犯罪的部分，我認為可以分幾個部分，一個是事前預防，第二個是行為的處遇，第三是後續追蹤。","我們來看下一張，這一張是我們看到少事法的修法，目前針對事前預防的部分，我知道現在我們要增加少年前科三年內沒有再因為故意觸犯刑罰法律而受保護處分或刑之宣告者，這個門檻我知道我們要調整，對不對？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這個一定是要做三級的預防，這是屬於少矯校裡面非常重要的一個機制，我想這可以預防，也可以在少年矯正學校做好，以後出校的時候能夠跟社會做銜接，再就學、就業，可以做一個比較好的處理，避免再犯。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，你覺得我們做了這個修法，真的可以幫助少年詐欺犯罪的預防嗎？怎麼說？因為我認為詐欺這件事情的背後因素真的非常非常多，容我先往後說，第一個，我知道行政院在今年3月的時候核定了一筆經費，是四年內我們要投入76億，關於預防兒童及少年犯罪方案（114到117年），我覺得這件事情非常非常重要，為什麼要從修法開始談起？因為少年、青少年現在儼然成為各式犯罪集團非常重要的工具人，因為孩子有這個豁免的條款，所以導致於這些黑道、這些詐騙集團的大人，他們直覺想到可以利用青少年。我知道我們相關的規劃是希望可以從初級預防、二級預防到後續孩子們回歸社會、回歸家庭、回歸社區的時候，有一個好的路可以選擇，可是我看到相關的困境是，當孩子們在面對自己可能變成詐騙集團，或是走進去之後發現好像真的有利可圖、有甜頭，比起他去打工、比起他做正常的工作好像容易得多，我認為我看見的是孩子們生活的困境，他可能是因為家庭的需求，家裡面沒有錢、急需用錢，或者是個人消費慾望的需求，他可能很羨慕同學有新的手機、新的球鞋。部長不要懷疑，新的球鞋可能五、六千塊，孩子們很想要，或者是情感的需求，例如說，詐騙集團這些大人真的很會接住小孩的情緒，種種的困難其實都不是我們處在光明面的大人可以看得見、可以接得住的，所以我才會問說，我們如何在未來114年到117年的76億防止青少年犯罪這一塊，我們加入一個這個部分，就是我剛剛講的，如何接住這些孩子原生社區、原生家庭、在學校的需求跟困境，讓他們提早理解更多，假設我真的加入詐團，假設我真的成為其中犯罪的一分子，或是我被關進去之後，我在少矯校、我在少觀所會發生什麼樣的事情，我出來還會面對什麼樣的困境？剛剛黃珊珊委員播的那個影片，大家只有看見快樂的一面，可是壞人都是這樣啊！他騙你吃蘋果之前，他跟你說蘋果很好吃，可是他沒有告訴你，你吃了毒蘋果你會發生什麼事情，我認為我們要讓孩子及早知道這些事情，雖然看起來有點像恐嚇，但我們轉換一個語法、轉換一個說法，讓孩子知道他犯了錯、犯了罪，我們不會因為他是少年就不告訴他可能會有的後果。我想拜託法務部在後續114到117年這個4年防制計畫當中如何加入這個部分，也就是在三級預防的前兩級──初級預防跟二級預防，我們提早加入這個觀念給小孩，我想聽一下部長您的回應。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。委員對這個問題很深入了解，當然提到宣導面，一定要讓小朋友、讓學生、兒童、少年清楚知道絕對不能夠去吃毒蘋果，不要被詐團所利用當車手、當收簿手，甚至提供一些個資，我想這部分我們會全力宣導，我們也會跟主管機關合作。"],["陳委員培瑜：主管機關一定還有教育部對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：教育部，還有衛福部、內政部、勞動部，當然還有法務部，這幾個部會，以法務部來講，重要是在少矯校跟少觀所，以及學校這部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為懲詐少年這部分，委員也清楚對於少年事件處理法，我們法務部是沒辦法碰這個區塊的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道、我知道，但是我們有更多初級預防跟二級預防。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個本來就是需要跨部會一起努力的，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我就提出我們的觀察跟問題，因為少矯校跟少觀所這幾年也確實被詐騙的孩子們充滿了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確是詐欺的最多。"],["陳委員培瑜：都是詐欺的部分，所以你們也會很辛苦。我們來看，假設他們真的發生了這些行為，然後被放進少矯校跟少觀所，目前我們看到你們相關的輔導內容，我看到有弟子規影片、生命重塑、靈性生命，我知道因為孩子們進來的時間或長或短，你們可以發生影響力的時間也或長或短，有非常多的變數，但我要說，我認為相關的課程真的必須要與時俱進，到底弟子規……我知道我們上次去考察的時候，你們跟我說弟子規的老師是有證照的老師，但是，部長，我真心要說，弟子規真的是我們這個世代的孩子他們聽得下去的嗎？與其教他們弟子規，搞不好我們黃珊珊委員剛剛那個影片更有效，他們看完之後，你們好好地告訴他們，在前面做了這個壞事看似光鮮亮麗，但陰暗面、黑暗的那一面，孩子們必須承受什麼！我認為這個事情搞不好更實際。也就是說，相關的矯正課程在做行為處遇的階段，我認為我們要更加與時俱進、更靠近他們，不要忘了他們在被放進少矯校跟少觀所之前，他們可是每天拿著手機看短影片的小孩，你突然讓他回到我們上一個時代在看的弟子規，我覺得有嚴重的落差，他們根本在裡面就是把眼睛閉起來、把耳朵關起來，這個要拜託部長。","所以我認為，如果要把這麼多課程安排放進來，我們的教化人力就要調整、輔導人力就要調整，可是現行我知道國教署有在協助你們，但我認為人力是不夠的，其實你們自己也非常清楚。而且說實話，這些小孩如果在一般校園裡面，他們會被放在所謂二級跟三級的輔導，回到學輔法的角度，他們是屬於二級輔導跟三級輔導的對象，而二級輔導跟三級輔導是極需要高度的專業去同理他、支持他、接納他，他才有可能跟我們大人站在一起說：好，我試試看！我來改邪歸正！我來努力看看！而這個部分可能也是你們現在缺乏的人力。我時間有限，我是不是就先把問題提出到這裡，拜託部長把相關的意見帶回去，不管是少矯校、少觀所，我們在初級、二級、三級，每一個階段我們都需要足夠多的專業人力來協助這些已經走上不好的路的孩子，他們回過頭來，他們想要回頭的時候，我們大人接得住，好不好？拜託部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，這部分我們回去……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我曾經要求法務部，對於經過這些少年處遇的少年犯，結束處遇之後進到社會，他的再犯率有多高？研究一下跟原來這些矯正或是觀護制度、內容是不是相關，是不是我們必須從這裡改善，讓他們回去社會之後降低他們再犯率？這個是值得我們研究的，我曾經指示他們去做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝院長。所以我很謝謝你們收到我的訊息，我對於孩子們的關心，希望他們還來得及在成年之前回頭是岸，要拜託我們大人一起努力，好嗎？謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽來自屏東縣旅居臺北的鄉親團，各位好朋友，我們掌聲熱烈歡迎。謝謝。","接下來請羅智強委員質詢，劉書彬委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}},{"id":"163521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163521","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de6c4643f889672f07418cf3659852ed250fb168977f54a35c2f0509819ccb48bc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:38:02 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何影子"},{"start":183.703,"end":204.726,"text":"院長這叫做打架打一半啦對修法的方向是應該是明確而且可以進行是什麼時候要送來這個立法一直這麼清楚這個司法院完全不聯絡院長我再告訴你更可笑的當天6月21號內政部排審法案的時候法務部把他的草案拿出來司法院的代表告訴我們他第一次看到"},{"start":206.561,"end":230.263,"text":"你們事先不聯絡了嗎你們在立這個法之前沒有告訴司法院你們的態度嗎這部分是在行政院的委員會討論這是在行政院審查中一定會請司法院來表示意見院長我現在說的是一個行政院一個法務部如果我們的法案不跟司法院討論你再送過來就白搭所以現在行政院審查中有請司法院來表示意見嗎你做的事情你都做了我知道可是我們司法院不理你啦"},{"start":232.158,"end":257.259,"text":"國務院長 你要不要去協調一下司法院跟行政院是不是不聯絡這件事情呢我們這個有修法 我們是修法的方向我們要參考德國的立法例來做一個處理我要問院長報告委員 我們包括這個保護被害人我要說的是 行政院跟司法院要不要聯絡要不要溝通再來修 立法院再幫你通過 然後司法院照樣不判"},{"start":258.407,"end":277.515,"text":"我都還沒講完保護被害人以及陳少共犯幾個案子當中你要不要跟司法院溝通我說我們這個都會積極跟司法院在判當中會積極跟司法院溝通就不會發生這種事我給你個時間現在是8月5號下個會期開議前你可以把法案審過來嗎審查完之後我們就會送到司法院要什麼時候送到立法院來"},{"start":284.89,"end":298.898,"text":"審查他必須 打詐要打真的啦 今天這個專報完了之後你法院還是這樣子辦 你撐什麼詐下個會期送過來可以嗎 當然是要打真的 你我都可能受害我們旁邊的記者都可能受害 下個會期可以送來吧"},{"start":299.656,"end":313.18,"text":"我們現在已經在 九月份可以送來吧九月份 下個會期我覺得應該是 一定可以送來院長這很重要你的懲詐就在這裡面我現在給你看的影片喔時間暫定我要放影片 前一頁我現在要給院長看影片喔 謝謝二十六個備案"},{"start":330.435,"end":336.883,"text":"他是一個車手他交保了他出來教人家怎麼詐騙他在假釋"},{"start":345.323,"end":352.07,"text":"他說拿著他的判決書去在騙集團又會百分之百被錄取真的假的你看你這個判決書這麼多"},{"start":380.188,"end":399.462,"text":"好 請切掉院長 這是詐騙犯詐騙犯這麼囂張出來之後在假釋期間還可以拍這種影片然後告訴大家說他的判決書就是他的履歷表這在台灣 看到這個人也很年輕現在台灣的年輕人可能認為詐騙集團很光榮啊"},{"start":401.781,"end":417.006,"text":"現在才是這個問題我想這個是很可惡的一個行為很可怕很可惡這個假釋犯你查出來好不好這個沒要求具體這個個案查出來有沒有這樣的事情這個個案查出來這個在假釋的人請部長把這個個案要找出來這樣的行為如果還放在社會上讓他犯罪不應該這個先處理吧我們未來針對被害人的保護以及"},{"start":431.972,"end":454.052,"text":"具體的酋刑乃至於考慮到未來這些人的禁舍令我們都是在修法的概念當中趕快進來吧我們趕快幫你修法不要再等了吧一年了成效如果只有這樣的話還有這麼一個影片的話我是覺得成效真的很不好下一個接下來是這是第一個今天大家都在談數字大家就看一下"},{"start":455.773,"end":478.264,"text":"這個數字剛剛部長一直說這是統計方法的問題我同意統計方法有問題不過這叫做之前都在當遮羞布遮羞布掀開之後所有的金額出來就不一樣這個原來統計數字是以警方做初步調查之後才裁的一個數字現在是一個報案的一個數字我同意本來就應該這樣"},{"start":481.745,"end":502.924,"text":"之前就是在那邊遮羞吃案所以這個不能講說遮羞吃案這個反正就是我的意思是說之前就是故意不報現在就是按照被害人說的算不是這樣的接下來院長你看到這個數字還是觸目驚心第一個你們的數字我不知道我這個是我們從打債儀表板8月份的統計數字2024年到502億12.2萬件現在2025年1到7月就566億"},{"start":508.849,"end":527.61,"text":"你剛剛說的下降我同意可能他逐步在下降但是統計起來還是很可怕而且我跟委員報告因為整個一個詐團的一個詐欺的形態的一個改變以前是電話詐欺所以那個金額比較現在的件數其實是有在下降的件數小這也是一個投資的一個詐欺所以他那個數額會比較高"},{"start":529.911,"end":556.101,"text":"所以不要再自有感覺良好它是在增加所以我現在在跟院長說我們要有數字概念沒有錯我同意大家努力的用距離8月的數字這裡是新年7月下降的幅度當然緩慢但趨勢是有的我們會再努力你如果做這麼多事還沒有下降真的是"},{"start":557.401,"end":558.182,"text":"請尊重一下執勳的委員好嗎"},{"start":571.135,"end":592.137,"text":"所以这个数字我希望看到的是它逐步的下降不管任何统计方式都不应该有这么大的偏差最严重的是诈骗里面投资诈骗占了多数投资诈骗我看到你们报告是说占了所有诈骗里面23%财产占了64%也就是说金额很高件数不见得最多"},{"start":593.078,"end":615.283,"text":"但是投資詐騙裡面很多都是所謂的六個月才發現九成五三十天之內一半數所以意思就是說養套殺的狀況很嚴重養套殺是因為他對金融不了解或者是他對現在的金融商品不清楚很容易受到所謂的社群很容易受到所謂的廣告他就受到的影響"},{"start":616.363,"end":631.393,"text":"所以這個剛剛講了很多的社區軟體要管理第二個我們現在有一大的最大的問題是虛擬資產虛擬資產是金管會的管轄虛擬資產在113年度審計部的總決算的審核報告針對所謂的虛擬資產的管理其實院長虛擬資產你知道現在的進度到哪裡了嗎"},{"start":645.417,"end":663.602,"text":"我們要用工會來管理所以虛擬資產它有一個專法也一樣送進去行政院了請問什麼時候要送來立法院是我們6月27號送進院院裡面由政務委員已經開始在審查已經開過會議院長你可以去催啊 快一點啊"},{"start":664.842,"end":689.72,"text":"為什麼大家都不知道在台灣買哪些業者是合法的搞不清楚狀況每天都被人家騙可以趕快讓專法進來讓所有願意在台灣落地合法的業者能夠盡快的讓他們納入管理讓所有的民眾知道我要去哪裡買虛擬資產不是現在到處被人家亂騙一通啊"},{"start":692.369,"end":717.676,"text":"金管會六月就進來了所以院長下個會期送來吧快吧快馬加鞭案子都在我就在等院長講了在你桌上你就趕快和啊只要趕快送到你桌上你來吹啊現在已經在那個審查中了他們都送了啦就是你們行政院我不知道啦動作慢半拍還是怎樣打詐是所有你的施政裡面我認為最急要的"},{"start":718.51,"end":734.975,"text":"而且都有法案只是還沒有送到院長桌上接下來是剛剛講的打詐成效神器部院長你覺得我們接下來還可以改善什麼打詐的成效神器部其實有講過你覺得現在還可以改善的是哪些"},{"start":736.212,"end":749.669,"text":"我覺得還是要從剛剛委員有提到懲詐後端就被害人的保護這方面應該再加強是第二個我剛才說審計部他其實說過了他說其實最嚴重的是我們165人力不穩定"},{"start":750.134,"end":767.166,"text":"第二個沒有建立打炸成效的量化指標現在好像建立了第三個是165的量能不足去每年仍然有將近5萬通電話就被漏接了所以院長165可能是一個需要改進的地方"},{"start":767.745,"end":796.851,"text":"那我會跟內政部跟165專線來檢討是 人力不足漏接電話造成了後端沒有辦法懲詐我們用AI的方式來盡量能不能技術的導入這個可能要快再接下來一個是院長剛剛也看到大家都說了我們發生台中豐原的五口的命案不管他們的原因是什麼他最嚴重的是他們求助我們走投無路 家破人亡"},{"start":798.158,"end":827.635,"text":"這是台灣人最深切的悲哀為什麼他們沒有辦法得到幫助找不到人協助甚至好走上絕路我想這個是一個很嚴重的另外一個就是他們碰到了更嚴重的是剛剛講你剛講地震拿房子去抵押炸團還幫他介紹金主去貸款在借永無止盡的借今天另外一個問題叫做融資公司"},{"start":828.7,"end":845.526,"text":"融資公司已經成為詐騙集團的共犯甚至有一些當鋪有一些相關的人他都變成跟詐騙集團說你們來借他錢繼續被我騙然後因為你是善良的第三人你借他錢你沒事啊"},{"start":846.641,"end":872.262,"text":"所以現在的融資公司一樣經管會我們在立法院也提了融資公司專法然後監察院在114年的4月就告訴大家監察院認為說現在公股銀行融資給這些所謂的民營的註定公司是有問題的第二個是 接下去是行政院應該要有專法院長 這件事情你知道嗎"},{"start":873.1,"end":902.94,"text":"是 我們也在往這個方向在做經管會一直努力 也時常跟我做說明現在經管會只管大不管小啦當然 主委很幫忙已經納入經保法我們是逐步納管啦接下來主委我還是要講院長這件事情可能也是跟打詐有關如果融資公司我要先講馬來西亞在7月份通過了他們的轉法馬來西亞針對非銀行的借貸業者全部納入管理而且有監管條例"},{"start":903.76,"end":924.949,"text":"這是臺灣可以學習可以接近的可以嗎要納入你的打詐的長期的目標我們不僅跨境打擊合作我們也希望吸取更多的國際好的經驗最後我覺得政府的資訊公開是人民比較不會受到詐騙的重要的關鍵包括一萬塊包括這些資訊都要完整的揭露好嗎"},{"start":928.629,"end":932.723,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝黃珊珊委員之間謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1678,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時38分）謝謝主席，我請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長早。我想今天打詐專報，其實國人都非常的關心，尤其我認為詐騙正在傷害臺灣，您同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一個全球性的犯罪行為，臺灣在這個工作上面還要持續的……"],["黃委員珊珊：還要更加油。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長上任之後有所謂的打詐2.0政策，從識詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐，您剛剛說了很多數字，我想剛剛大家也都看到了數字，現在的問題在於懲詐。一年前，院長記得嗎？我們在立法院通過了打詐專法，這個專法通過了整整一年，這一年來您覺得成效怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在識詐跟防詐、阻詐方面有相當的成效……"],["黃委員珊珊：前面做很多，懲詐呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是懲詐可能還需要在刑事訴訟法……"],["黃委員珊珊：懲詐的部分，院長知道刑事法庭跟法務部還有我們立法院，甚至跟行政院的立場完全不一樣，我們通過的專法被司法院打臉，院長知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得爭點在於如何能夠把犯罪的金額取回，以及對被害人如何加強……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個比較有趣，院長，我們去年7月通過了打詐專法，經過一年到今年的1月份，最高法院開了所謂的刑事大法庭解釋我們當時為什麼立這個法，立這個法的目的是什麼，所以我們立法意旨講得很清楚，如果自白或自首，並繳回犯罪所得就可以減刑。但法院認為繳回的犯罪所得是他得到的酬勞，所以一個車手繳回三千塊、五千塊就可以減刑了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不成比例！"],["黃委員珊珊：今天這條法條已經被最高法院大法庭解釋成這樣，打臉行政院，打臉法務部，打臉立法院！法務部長，今年5月我問你，你說你會修法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：有。"],["黃委員珊珊：立法院的委員都已經提案了，法務部雖然有草案卻不敢拿出來，院長，你知道為什麼嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼不敢拿出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：法案現在還在……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為還在行政院審查！院長，法案送到你桌上了沒？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為還要請司法院來一起討論……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要問院長。院長，你看到了沒？要修法，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部裡面送出來的草案，通常程序上要經過政委來……"],["黃委員珊珊：他5月21日說要修法，且一個月之後就修了；6月21日內政委員會已經排了，他也拿出草案了，但到今天8月15日，仍不見任何影子，院長，這叫打詐打一半！"],["卓院長榮泰：修法的方向應該是明確且可以進行的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，什麼時候要送來？立法意旨這麼清楚，你們卻完全不聯絡司法院？院長，我再告訴你更可笑的。6月21日當天內政部排審法案時，法務拿出草案，司法院代表告訴我們這是他第一次看到！你們事先不聯絡嗎？你們在立這個法之前沒有告訴司法院你們的態度嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是在行政院……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二，修草案前有沒有跟他們討論過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在行政院審查中，一定會請司法院表示意見……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我現在要說的是，一個行政院、一個法務部，如果法案不跟司法院討論，即使你再送過來也是白搭！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在行政院正在審查中，有請司法院代表表達意見……"],["黃委員珊珊：你該做的事你都做了，我知道，可是司法院不理你！你要不要去協調一下？院長，你要不要就司法院跟行政院不聯絡這件事情協調一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就這次修法，我們就修法的方向會參酌德國的立法例來做處理……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我在問院長！主席，我要問院長！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，包括保護被害人以及……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要說的是，行政院跟司法院要不要聯絡？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：要不要溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：包括保護被害人的修法以及成效……"],["黃委員珊珊：這次你再修，立法院再幫你通過，然後司法院照樣不判？"],["卓院長榮泰：我都還沒講完！保護被害人以及成效部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，你回答我，你要不要跟司法院溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們都會積極跟司法院溝通……"],["黃委員珊珊：會積極跟司法院溝通就不會發生這種事！我給你一個時間，現在是8月15日……"],["卓院長榮泰：草案在今年6月已經送到行政院審查，審查完會送司法院……"],["黃委員珊珊：你什麼時候送到立法院？"],["卓院長榮泰：審查必須經過政委……"],["黃委員珊珊：打詐要打真的！今天的專報完了之後，法院還是這樣判，你懲什麼詐？下個會期送過來可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：打詐當然要打真的，你我都可能受害，我們旁邊的親人都可能受害……"],["黃委員珊珊：下個會期可以送來吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在已經在行政院審查……"],["黃委員珊珊：9月份可以送來吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：9月份？下個會期一定可以送來。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這很重要，懲詐就在這裡面！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們也贊成委員的想法，這的確很重要，所以我們的草案不是只針對個人的報酬跟被害人的損害……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在要給院長看影片。","（播放影片）"],["黃委員珊珊：這是一個車手，他交保了，結果居然出來教人家怎麼詐騙。他還在假釋中，他說拿著判決書去詐騙集團一定會百分之百被錄取。院長，這是詐騙犯，一個詐騙犯居然這麼囂張！交保出來還在假釋期間，居然拍這種影片？然後告訴大家他的判決書就是他的履歷表，這在臺灣！這個人很年輕，現在臺灣的年輕人可能認為加入詐騙集團很光榮，這才是問題！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是很可惡的行為！"],["黃委員珊珊：很可怕！"],["鄭部長銘謙：很可惡！"],["黃委員珊珊：你把這個假釋犯查出來好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們要求具體求刑……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個個案去查出來有沒有這樣的事情！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們希望輕判的這個部分能夠做一個改善。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這個個案查出來，把這個在假釋的人查出來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛已經請部長要把這個個案找出來，這樣的行為如果還放在社會上讓他犯案是不應該。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個先處理吧！懲詐要懲真的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：未來針對被害人的保護以及具體的求刑，乃至於考慮到未來對這些人的禁奢令，我們都是在修法的概念當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：趕快送進來吧！我們趕快幫你修吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：都有這個方向。"],["黃委員珊珊：不要再等了，一年了，成效如果只有這樣，而且還有這麼一個影片的話，我是覺得成效真的很不好啦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，這是第一個。接下來，今天大家都在談數字，那就來看一下，這個數字剛剛部長一直說這是統計方法的問題，我同意，統計方法有問題，不過這叫做之前都在當遮羞布……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個沒有遮羞布……"],["黃委員珊珊：遮羞修布掀開之後，所有的金額出來就不一樣了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個統計我要說明一下，原本的統計數字是以警方做初步調查之後才……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道，所以我同意……"],["鄭部長銘謙：才出來的數字，現在是報案的數字，……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，本來就應該這樣！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是沒有查證過的數字，所以才會有落差。"],["黃委員珊珊：本來就應該這樣！之前就是在那邊遮羞、吃案！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不能講說遮羞、吃案，這個反正就是還在調查釐清嘛！"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是說，之前就是故意不報嘛，現在就是按照被害人說的算……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是啊！沒有這種講法啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是這樣的啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來，院長，你看這個數字還是令人怵目驚心，第一個，你們的數字我不知道，而這個是打詐儀錶板8月份的統計數字，2024年到502億、12.2萬件，而2025年1到7月就有566億耶，你剛剛說的下降，我同意，可能是逐步在下降，但是統計起來還是很可怕。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且我要跟委員報告，因為整個詐團的詐欺型態有了改變，以前是電話詐欺，所以那個金額比較小，現在的件數其實是有在下降的……"],["黃委員珊珊：件數小、數字大。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這也是投資的詐欺，所以那個數額會比較高，這個我們都知道……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以不要再自我感覺良好，它是在增加的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實這個件數是一直有在減少，所以單看詐騙數額也不能夠窺全貌，所以我們檢視被害人跟被害件數是有下降的一個趨勢啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我現在再跟院長說，我們要有數字概念沒有錯，我同意大家努力的……"],["卓院長榮泰：簡單的說，那個是去年8月的數字，這裡是今年7月的數字，下降的幅度當然緩慢，但趨勢是有的，我們會再努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果做了這麼多事還沒有下降，真的是不應該！"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且我要跟委員報告，說實在的，我們打詐是全方面的，我們也是有跟……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你為什麼要一直搶我的話呢？我還沒有問問題耶！請尊重一下質詢的委員，好嗎？","所以這個數字我希望看到的是它逐步下降，不管任何統計方式都不應該有這麼大的偏差。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，趨勢是如此。"],["黃委員珊珊：最嚴重的是在詐騙裡面，投資詐騙占了多數，我看到你們的報告提到，投資詐騙占了所有詐騙案件的23%，財損占了64%，也就是說金額很高，件數不見得最多，但是投資詐騙裡面很多都是所謂6個月才發現，有九成五，30天之內是半數。意思就是養套殺的狀況很嚴重，養套殺是因為他對金融不了解，或者是他對現在的金融商品不清楚，很容易受到所謂的社群、很容易受到所謂廣告的影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以剛剛講了很多的社群軟體要管理。第二個，我們現在最大的問題是虛擬資產，虛擬資產是金管會的管轄，113年度審計部的總決算審核報告針對所謂虛擬資產的管理，院長，針對虛擬資產，你知道現在的進度到哪裡了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請金管會答復。"],["黃委員珊珊：不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：是由公會來管理。"],["黃委員珊珊：用公會來管理，所以虛擬資產有一個專法，也一樣送進行政院了，請問什麼時候要送來立法院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我們6月27號送進院裡面，政務委員已經開始審查，已經開過會了。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，你該去催啊，要快一點！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，一定催。"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼大家都不知道在臺灣有哪些業者是合法的，搞不清楚狀況，每天在那裡被人家騙！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們在網頁上都有公布現在所有的合法業者。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，可以趕快讓專法進來，讓所有願意在臺灣落地合法的業者能夠儘快的被納入管理……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，這是我們的方向。"],["黃委員珊珊：讓所有的民眾知道要去哪裡買虛擬資產，不是現在這樣到處被人家亂騙一通啦。院長，金管會6月就送進來了，所以院長，下個會期送來吧！快吧！快馬加鞭！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，沒有問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：案子都在，我就在等院長講了，在你桌上你就趕快核啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：儘快！"],["黃委員珊珊：要趕快送到你桌上，你要催啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，儘快把它審查完。"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在已經在審查中了。"],["黃委員珊珊：他們都送了啦，就是你們行政院，我不知道啦，動作慢半拍還是怎樣，打詐……"],["卓院長榮泰：政委還在審查中。"],["黃委員珊珊：打詐在你所有的施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院長"},{"start":431.772,"end":459.435,"text":"報告委員我剛剛的數字已經有說明了本席案件下降了百分之二十二今天下降了百分之三十七點五是不是下降我們一步一步來討論我知道這個數字不代表一種承認謝謝你啦你在這裡願會向全民告訴說我們的詐騙案有下降那我們就慢慢來看您剛剛也特別提醒大家要去看那個打詐疑標板好我們繼續來台灣為什麼一直被國際點名"},{"start":462.24,"end":489.185,"text":"詐騙王國跟洗錢中心台灣善良的寶島曾幾何時會成為國際的詐騙王國跟洗錢中心請您看清楚下一頁聯合國點名台灣是詐騙洗錢中心院長這都是今年"},{"start":490.459,"end":509.35,"text":"聯合國的報告4月22號發布的所以打詐釋法中洗錢防治法我們會盡力的把它發揮它的效應 要的工具國會都支持要的經費國會也支持來下一頁來113年打詐行動綱領去年13.9億今年73.5億一次增加5.6倍"},{"start":520.811,"end":529.419,"text":"院長增加了這麼多錢我們來看一看成果再來2020到2024從2023年2024年從新政府上台從原本2020年詐騙金額42億到去年的487億"},{"start":548.308,"end":562.283,"text":"到今年上半年就481現在是確確實實聯合國的報告啊台灣是全世界第一名的詐騙王國院長這個數字有點諷刺"},{"start":568.769,"end":575.977,"text":"院長看一下去年齁2024年跟2020年2020年42億2024年487億遭詐騙金額今年1到6月480億這是不是歷史的偶然齁我們看下一頁"},{"start":587.706,"end":602.357,"text":"統計方式不一樣那這個是跟委員報告 這個是統計方式資料來源就是剛剛要跟本席解釋本席沒有請你發言 本席沒有請你發言委員 我講一句本席在跟你討論統計方式不一樣沒有關係 因為剛剛院長的報告本席聽得很清楚 請我們看答詐飲料版"},{"start":611.909,"end":623.416,"text":"打造業老闆顯示出來而且這是歷史的偶然看一下今年1月到6月份竟然是888888件這數字怎麼會這麼偶然打造業老闆公佈的上半年的詐騙金額就481億院長再過來看審計部審計部的資料"},{"start":644.892,"end":655.557,"text":"不要再講什麼資料又錯誤審計部看到沒有112年89億113年487億審計部資料有錯誤嗎不是審計部錯誤是統計的方式不一樣你可以講糾正檢察院 糾正審計部他的數字寫錯了再過來"},{"start":674.946,"end":702.62,"text":"青少年犯案增加 集中在詐欺院長我們的下一代也淪落至此再過來現在車手 車手看那個成長的幅度現在孩子們當車手比跑福菲恩塔賺的還多福菲恩塔是靠自己的勞力努力的去打拚"},{"start":706.146,"end":732.845,"text":"詐騙車手卻是用這種方式來賺錢就是我們的孩子趨之若鶩的工作行列這個是不是我可以來說明一下不需要 本席請你你可以到委員會去好好說明院長 我們今天是在跟院長探討資料都不是本席的都是正式公告的再看一下為什麼滿意度會下降這麼多一個行政團隊應該整體來看"},{"start":735.092,"end":762.38,"text":"為什麼有這些問題說使用的這些相關的人是不是有足夠的能力來處理這些問題院長 本席今天是語重心長本席很客氣希望院長能夠解決問題今天國會議員在這裡懇切地呼喊請院長拿出辦法來讓台灣不要成為詐騙之島"},{"start":764.773,"end":788.4,"text":"國民黨團 立法院都用全力來支持但是辦法要拿出來能力要拿出來再來我們希望我們執政者要把心思放在人民身上停止其他的政治動作院長可以嗎 可以嗎"},{"start":789.076,"end":816.192,"text":"行政院一直對於推動業務列為我們優先唯一重要的方向本期是希望共勉之啦好不好本期希望是請院長共勉之把心思放在人民身上不要放在政治身上來下一頁藍白三預算這個事情其實各部會首長都說明的很清楚了請行政院各部會的官員不要再把這種"},{"start":817.409,"end":841.207,"text":"欺騙社會的行為不要再講了再講 拜託不要再說了不要再說就好一句話 不要再說了增加預算因為有新的新增業務那我們會配合嘛 就講嘛可以辦追加嘛你下禮拜不是要送進來了嗎我們已經在今年已經辦了已經增加在裡面了昨天議會不是通過了下禮拜要送進來啦"},{"start":842.458,"end":867.692,"text":"對不對 是我們會很良善的來看待只要院方有需要行政院方有需要也符合人民的需求我們會給予支持嘛一句話 就是剛剛說每個部位的增加不要再講這個沒業的事情不要再說了 好不好每個部位有增加是因為他已經列了新增業務昨天啊 這個行政院會通過普發一萬塊這是真的跟院長來共勉之"},{"start":870.171,"end":886.418,"text":"我們面對美國這麼強大的經濟的壓力各國先進的國家都在擴大內需普發現金謝謝院長從善如流我想收到立法院來我們會在時程上盡量與你配合"},{"start":888.367,"end":909.888,"text":"我期待整個任性的特別條例能夠緊迫的通過我們會依據編約預算我們會整體來一起討論好不好謝謝委員長當然院長會來 卓院長會再來報告我們也就謝謝了那我想這個蘇花安也正式來核定了讓"},{"start":912.82,"end":930.41,"text":"華東人有安全回家的路也謝謝院長您核定了我想擴大內需是很重要的當外在經濟有危機的時候內部我們要全面來提升所以在這裡請院長本席還會再就教華東快的部分台灣島就這麼小華東快環島路要盡快來做"},{"start":933.212,"end":939.675,"text":"本席會全力的支持也全力的配合好不好 謝謝院長我們再做分析好 謝謝謝謝副官紀委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長 貝巡謝謝接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1609,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時22分）主席，請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：傅委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：院長好。在今天為了打詐到本院做報告之後，下禮拜二針對一般性補助款也要請卓院長到立法院做相關的說明。我想今天很重要的就是，臺灣現在面臨兩岸的不和平還有對美關稅的問題，讓人民惶惶不安，畢竟臺灣85%的產業都是以外銷為主，此時此刻，臺灣人心必須要安定。詐騙集團橫行已經行之多年，立法院不斷的配合行政院給予必要的工具跟立法，國會都是全面支持配合，但是到現在為止，114年8月了，請問卓院長，你剛剛報告完畢，到底我們打詐有沒有成效？行政院卓院長身為閣揆，你滿不滿意？現在打詐有沒有成效？政府機關滿不滿意？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我覺得沒有國人會滿意現在的打詐工作，但是我剛剛說過，這一群工作同仁還是值得鼓勵。"],["傅委員崐萁：國人不滿意的話，那院長滿不滿意？"],["卓院長榮泰：我自己要求我們從政策上多給予更多的支持，我們也給這些工作同仁更多的鼓勵，我們從數字下降來看是有進展的。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒關係，院長不回答，我們就來看一下「詐騙逼死一家五口，敲醒政府警鐘」，詐騙集團逼死臺中一家五口，政府如何重視還是有曾經關心過詐騙案嗎？「北市內湖雙屍，母女遭詐騙輕生」為了謀財，不惜害命；再來，累積600個詐騙案嫌犯被遣送大陸，這個真的是臺灣之光，是嗎？臺灣的詐騙已經橫行到全世界，在海外設機房，在臺灣訓練好之後到海外去行騙全世界，不只騙臺灣人，也騙全世界的人，全世界只要有華人的地方，就是他們下手的目標，然後這個被押解到大陸去，如果沒有被判死刑，大概一輩子也出不來。","接著，詐團橫跨北中南，警察攻堅又逮獲25人，院長可以看一下，再過來，現在不是詐團而已，還囚禁被害人，然後凌虐致死，這是自由時報登的；臺灣多處驚見浮屍，詐團黑吃黑，殺人滅口；再來，短短兩週，臺灣三地又看到3具浮屍。從2020年到2023年，大概警政署很懼怕人民看這些資料，2023年以後，本席跟警政署要，但他們不做這個資料，也不提供了，以前在民國60年、70年的時候，臺灣民風有多麼善良，有1件浮屍案，全國查，抓到為止，我們現在一年幾百件的浮屍案，院長，本席再請教一次，您對現在整個政府體系打詐的成果滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為我跟國人一樣，都不會滿意現在呈現出來的成果，但是委員剛剛說的那些治安問題，確實是問題，但它跟打詐之間有沒有百分之百直接的關聯，這個值得我們再去分析，但是我願意面對治安的問題，我們從這個方向來做自我的檢討。"],["傅委員崐萁：治安也是行政院的問題，打詐也是行政院的問題，這個數字讓院長了解，就是難辭其咎，必須睜大眼睛，好好來研究要怎麼解決。","為什麼我們臺灣的詐騙如此猖獗？臺灣只有6%的人沒有被詐騙過，臺灣為什麼成為詐騙之島？這都是媒體的報導。剛剛院長在報告有提到，希望立法院能夠全力支持、配合，去年打詐四法，我們是不是配合了行政院、配合了法務部，打詐新四法也通過了，我們完全配合法務部、配合行政院、配合警政署，所有需要的工具、所有司法情治單位需要的立法，立法院通過以後，卻越打越詐，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我剛剛的數字已經有說明了，案件下降了22%，金額下降了37.5%。"],["傅委員崐萁：是不是下降，我們一步一步來討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道這個數字不代表總……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席也謝謝你，你在院會這裡告訴全民說我們的詐騙案有下降，那我們就慢慢來看，您剛剛也特別提醒大家要去看打詐儀表板。好，我們繼續來看，臺灣為什麼一直被國際點名是詐騙王國跟洗錢中心？臺灣是善良的寶島，曾幾何時會變成為國際的詐騙王國跟洗錢中心？請您看清楚，聯合國點名臺灣是詐騙洗錢中心，院長，這都是今年聯合國於4月22號發布的報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以打詐四法中，我們會盡力發揮洗錢防制法的效率。"],["傅委員崐萁：要的工具，國會都支持；要的經費，國會也支持。113年（去年）打詐行動綱領預算數是13.9億，今年是73.5億，一次增加5.6倍，院長，增加了這麼多錢，我們來看一看成果。2020到2024年，2024年新政府上臺，詐騙金額從2020年的42億到去年的487億，今年上半年就有480億，現在是確確實實聯合國的報告，臺灣是全世界第一名的詐騙王國。院長，這個數字有點諷刺，院長看一下2024年（去年）跟2020年，遭詐騙金額在2020年是42億、2024年是487億，今年1到6月是480億，這是不是歷史的偶然？"],["卓院長榮泰：統計方式不一樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個是統計方式……"],["傅委員崐萁：資料來源……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是165……"],["傅委員崐萁：就是剛剛……"],["鄭部長銘謙：統計的方式不一樣……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要跟本席解釋，本席沒有請你說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員不能夠就這樣的數據來呈現說這個是詐騙越來越嚴重。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，本席沒有請你發言。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我講一句。"],["傅委員崐萁：院長，本席再跟你討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：統計方式不一樣。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，因為剛剛院長的報告本席聽得很清楚，我們看打詐儀錶板所顯示出來的，這是不是歷史的偶然？看一下今年1月到6月份，竟然是8萬8,888件，這數字怎麼會這麼偶然？這是打詐儀錶板公布的，上半年的詐騙金額就有480億。院長，再過來看審計部的資料，不要再講什麼資料又錯誤，看到沒有？112年是89億，113年是487億，審計部資料也錯誤嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是審計部錯誤……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長請回，本席沒有請你發言。"],["卓院長榮泰：是統計的方式不一樣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於一個統計的，因為審計部是用……"],["傅委員崐萁：你可以講……"],["鄭部長銘謙：打詐儀錶板的那個……"],["傅委員崐萁：糾正監察院、糾正審計部，它的數字寫錯了。再來，青少年犯案增加，集中在詐欺，院長，我們的下一代也淪落至此，現在車手……看它成長的幅度，現在孩子們當車手比跑foodpanda賺的還多，跑foodpanda是靠自己的勞力努力去打拼，詐騙車手卻是用這種方式來賺錢，是我們的孩子趨之若鶩的工作行列。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是不是我可以來說明一下？"],["傅委員崐萁：不需要，你可以到委員會去好好說明。院長，我們今天是在跟院長探討，資料都不是本席的，都是正式公告的。為什麼滿意度會下降這麼多？一個行政團隊應該整體來看為什麼有這些問題，這些相關的人是不是有足夠的能力來處理這些問題？院長，本席今天是語重心長，本席很客氣，希望院長能夠解決問題，今天國會議員在這裡懇切的呼喊，請院長拿出辦法來讓臺灣不要成為詐騙之島，國民黨黨團、立法院都願意全力支持，但是辦法要拿出來、能力要拿出來。","再來，我們希望執政者要把心思放在人民身上，停止其他的政治動作。院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院一直將推動業務列為我們優先且唯一重要的方向。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席希望共勉之，好不好？本席希望請院長共勉之。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：把心思放在人民身上，不要放在政治身上。","再來，藍白刪預算的這個事情，其實各部會首長都說明得很清楚了，請行政院各部會的官員對於這種欺騙社會的行為，不要再講了，再講就難看了，不要再講了！不要再講了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，一句話……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再講了。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為有新增業務，所以增加預算。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們會配合嘛，就講嘛！可以辦追加嘛，你們下禮拜不是要送進來了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年已經增加在裡面了……"],["傅委員崐萁：院長，昨天院會不是通過了？下禮拜要送進來了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們會很良善的來看待，只要行政院方有需要，也符合人民的需求，我們會給予支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：一句話，就是剛剛說……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再講這個沒有的事情，不要再說了，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，每個有增加的部會是因為他們已經列了新增業務。"],["傅委員崐萁：昨天行政院院會通過普發1萬塊，這真的跟院長來共勉之，我們面對美國這麼強大的經濟壓力，各國先進國家都在擴大內需、普發現金，謝謝院長從善如流送到立法院來，我們會在時程上儘量予以配合。"],["卓院長榮泰：期待整個韌性的特別條例能夠儘速通過。"],["傅委員崐萁：我知道還有一些軍購嘛！我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會依據來編列預算。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們整體來一起討論，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持。"],["傅委員崐萁：當然卓院長會再來報告，我們也就謝謝了。","我想蘇花安也正式核定了，讓花東人有安全回家的路，也謝謝院長已經核定了，我想擴大內需是很重要的，當外在經濟有危機的時候，我們內部就要全面來提升，所以在這裡請院長，本席還會再就教花東快的部分，臺灣島就這麼小，花東快、環島高速公路要儘快來做，本席會全力的支持，也全力的配合，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再做分析，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝傅崐萁委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來請黃珊珊委員質詢，陳培瑜委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}},{"id":"163519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de61f91d0728b50fb8f18cf3659852ed250d8dd2c4aa117be4cbbf63eac285b690c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:50:52 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王育民委員請準備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1488,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時41分）感謝大家不分黨派，我們快馬加鞭，今天完成了丹娜絲及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別條例，這裡面有非常多各黨各派、也包括台灣民眾黨對災民的關懷跟我們的堅持。今天通過的三讀條文有台灣民眾黨提出的四大堅持跟重點：第一個，加碼補助；第二個，加速重建；第三個，避免非法移用，要專款專用，所以我們訂了黃偉哲條款；第四，要求要公開透明、國會監督。","在加碼補助這個區塊，我們明定：第一個，要排除一個門牌只有一戶，因為這次受災的很多民眾一個門牌裡面可能有好幾戶。另外，補助的標準除了現有的規定之外，我們要求每一戶再增加，只要是淹水超過50公分的，一戶增加2萬塊，中低收入戶跟低收入戶增加3萬塊錢。第二個，加速重建，明確要求在明年底之前要完成所有的重建，只有在電力、通訊還有水力的部分延後一年，到後年要完成。第三個，訂定黃偉哲條款是因為審計部明確提出，發現臺南市用於地下道的清淤預算竟然非法挪用了九千多萬，所以我們明定一定要專款專用，這是中央補助給地方救災、復建、整個復原重建的錢，一定要依照目的跟項目，不能夠有任何非法的挪用。第四個，我們要求公開透明、國會監督，中央部會在兩個月內要提出整個重建計畫，且中央部會要把每一季的執行狀況送到立法院來備查，而且要設置資訊網站專區，每個月公開。","我們希望今天是復原重建的開始，我們關懷所有的災民，有600億的特別預算，透過我們的四大堅持跟重點，請加速復原重建，讓災民早日安居樂業，回到以前的生活，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員發言。","接下來請王美惠委員發言，王育敏委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":49,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-25","speakers":["韓國瑜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-15"],"gazette_id":"1147101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第25次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147101_00001"}}},{"id":"16871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16871","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a60933e79f5a66a952595e5a7d9476abbdb3a4a8e3640dc7cc204dfb4fda4df4d8355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第3會期第25次會議（事由：一、行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢（8月15日）。二、行政院院長提出「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢（8月19日）。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-15T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-15T17:56:00+08:00","duration":33915,"影片長度":"09:25:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 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2 3 41 2 3 41 2 3 41 2 3 41 2 3 4喂 目前者聲音沒有變到正常是不是"},{"start":409.901,"end":411.582,"text":"123412341234正常啊 好 先這樣 好不好"},{"start":1767.898,"end":1780.908,"text":"報告院會現在我們開始進行開會請秘書長報告出席人數報告院會出席委員49人已足法定人數我們現在開會報告院會依照協商結論今天報告事項處理完畢之後"},{"start":1782.549,"end":1808.668,"text":"先進行處理丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例草案一案並於處理完畢之後我們再請行政院卓院長及相關部會首長依原定議程列席報告並備諮詢今天院會後續就依照協商結論來進行現在進行報告事項請米莎宣讀第三會期第24次會議議事錄"},{"start":1810.649,"end":1830.045,"text":"宣讀立法院第十一屆第三會期第二十四次會議議事錄時間中華民國一百十四年八月八日上午九十至九十二十四分時時至十一時四十七分八月十二日上午九十至十二時十一分下午二十三十分至五十四十九分地點本院議場"},{"start":1831.286,"end":1856.164,"text":"出席委員陳委員招致等一百十三年內席官員行政院院長卓榮泰主席院長韓國瑜報告事項第一案宣讀扁院第十一屆第三會席第二三次會議議事錄決定確定第二四至八十四十六至三百五十案均決定交互相關委員會審查處理或交互相關委員會第三案決定"},{"start":1857.509,"end":1868.482,"text":"禁貨毒與相關提案併案協商第九至十三案決定併案禁貨毒與院長召集協商第十五案決定定期舉行會議邀請審計長列席報告審核經過並備諮詢"},{"start":1873.328,"end":1892.855,"text":"第三百五十一案 為考試院秘書長涵送考試院一百一十五年度施政計畫第三百五十二案至三百五十五案為內政委員會等所提出報告案執行事項 本院委員執行部門一見討論事項第一至三案均決議通過"},{"start":1894.395,"end":1920.421,"text":"行政院長提出丹納斯臺翁及728豪宇災後護援重建專案報告並答覆質詢決定一 將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院請就位答覆部分予以書面答覆二 已提出的書面質詢尚未登載公報則一律補刊其他事項一"},{"start":1922.522,"end":1941.02,"text":"114年8月8日朝野黨團協商結論一件民進黨黨團提議變更議程一頁不予通過宣讀完畢動議會針對第三會期第24次會議的議事錄並沒有委員或黨團提出錯誤及遺漏之處我們現在做一下決定第三會期第24次會議議事錄確定請宣讀第二案"},{"start":1943.032,"end":1970.954,"text":"第二案 總統資委選紀部審計長陳瑞銘任期於一百十四年十月一日屆滿自依據憲法第一百零四條規定提名陳瑞銘繼續任選紀部審計長資勤同意案前衆委員會間交全院委員會審查 宣言完畢前院會有異議 面議通過下案第三案 本院委員黃建豪等二十二人離去海關進口稅責不分稅責修正策案前衆委員會間交財政委員會審查 宣言完畢"},{"start":1971.79,"end":1973.792,"text":"無異議通過下案無異議通過下案無異議通過下案"},{"start":1990.089,"end":2018.056,"text":"第六案 本院委員劉許廷的十七人離聚文化創意產業發展法第十條追議條務修正草案柴旭永會兼交交務及文化委員會審查 宣告完畢第七案 本院委員林月琴的二十四人離聚少年事件處理法第八十三條追議條務修正草案柴旭永會兼交司法及法制部委員會審查 宣告完畢第八案 本院委員徐小新的十六人離聚人工智慧基本法草案柴旭永會兼交交務及文化交通兩委員會審查 宣告完畢"},{"start":2018.755,"end":2048.46,"text":"報告議員會報告事項第八案現有國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商請問議員會有異面議本案禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商下議案第九案本院委員賴世寶的二十七任理據豁稅條例第十二條居五條維修正常案財修委員會見交財政委員會審查宣傳完畢報告議員會報告事項第九案現有國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商請問議員會有異面議本案禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商下議案"},{"start":2049.059,"end":2073.58,"text":"第十案 本院委員王玉敏等16人離去 家庭暴力防治法部門條文修正草案陳修永會監教社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩委員會審查 宣言為併第十案 本院委員鄭烈才等18人離去 社會救助法部門條文修正草案陳修永會監教社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 宣言為併第十案 本院委員高清素美等19人離去 原住民族文化"},{"start":2074.341,"end":2088.626,"text":"原住民族委員會組織法第3條 第4條及第6條之一條維修正常案前衆委員會兼交司法及法制內涉兩委員會審查 宣告完畢委員會報告事項第13案現有國民黨團體禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商請委員會有異議沒有異議本案禁服二讀與相關提案並案協商 下議案"},{"start":2104.178,"end":2131.651,"text":"第十四案 本院委員王美惠等17人離聚擔當四颱風及7.28豪雨災後復原重建特別條例草案財修委員會見 擬請院會議黨團協商結論進一步二讀與相關提案平安協商宣讀完畢第十五案 本院委員蔡宇等32人離聚擔當四颱風及7.28豪雨災後復原重建特別條例草案財修委員會見 擬請院會議黨團協商結論進一步二讀與相關提案平安協商宣讀完畢"},{"start":2132.711,"end":2154.723,"text":"第十六案 本院委員邱盈盈的二十三人理據擔當四颱風及七二八後雨災後復原重建特別調理草案陳秀園會見 擬請院會議黨團協商結論進覆二讀與相關提案平安協商宣讀完畢第十七案 本院委員賴慧媛的二十三人理據擔當四颱風災後重建特別調理草案陳秀園會見 擬請院會議黨團協商結論進覆二讀與相關提案平安協商宣讀完畢"},{"start":2160.006,"end":2179.582,"text":"第十八案 本院委員吳麗華等21人擬聚擔當司臺峰及728候與災後復員重建特別條例草案陳修揚會見內政委員會議黨團協商結論進覆二讀與相關提案並且寫上 宣讀完畢第十九案 本院委員吳麗華等21人擬聚行政區劃程序法草案陳修揚會見將內政委員會審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":2182.845,"end":2189.451,"text":"第二十一案委員會函送《台灣與澳門避免航空企業雙重課稅協議》一百十四年第二季季雙門延程效報告陳秀永會借交內政委員會處理宣布完畢"},{"start":2203.965,"end":2226.943,"text":"第二十二案 前紀委韓總公告中華民國一百十四年丹納斯颱風風災災區範圍為坦丹市 併自一百十四年七月五日生效陳修緣會見交內政委員會 宣讀完畢第二十三案 前紀委韓總公告中華民國一百十四年丹納斯颱風風災災區範圍新增嘉義縣嘉義市及高雄市部分 併自一百十四年七月五日生效陳修緣會見交內政委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2230.786,"end":2253.159,"text":"第二十四案 行政院函誦台英提升貿易夥伴關係之數位貿易能源與淨零排放及投資三項領域協議英文本 英文本及中英文陳修永會兼交經濟 外交及國防兩委員會宣讀完畢報應會本案 臺灣民眾黨團體改交審查本案交經濟 外交及國防兩委員會審查 下一案"},{"start":2253.717,"end":2282.686,"text":"第25案 行政院行為修正一所得基本稅額條例第八條第一項鎖定營利事業所得基本稅額之徵收率並自一百十四年度生效財政委員會兼交財政委員會宣布完畢第26案 行政院行為修正行政院處規程部分條文及行政院編制表財政委員會兼交司法計劃財政委員會宣布完畢第27案 行政院函送總統府軍人權益申訴實現處理辦法財政委員會兼交司法計劃財政委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":2283.752,"end":2284.713,"text":"無異通過下頁無異通過下頁無異通過下頁"},{"start":2311.068,"end":2336.369,"text":"第30案 行政運航維修生入海空軍刑法第54條 定項第3款 利用以確認檢驗判定檢出毒病品項及濃度值 並自114年7月12日生效 裁修委員會監交司法及法治外交及國防兩委員會 宣讀完畢第31案 海洋委員會和中華民國臺灣政府與索馬利蘭共和國政府海巡合作協定影本 裁修委員會監交內政外交及國防兩委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2336.809,"end":2361.788,"text":"包園會第31案由臺灣民眾黨團體改交審查本案交內政 外交及國防兩委員會審查下議案第33案海洋委員會寒松海洋保育法海洋庇護區申請案件收費標準陳修緣會兼交內政委員會宣讀完畢無異通過下議案第33案海洋委員會寒松海洋庇護區劃定辦法陳修緣會兼交內政委員會宣讀完畢無異通過下議案"},{"start":2362.188,"end":2378.198,"text":"第34案 海洋委員會橫送海洋庇護區之核心區從事科學研究監測或調查活動統一辦法 全球委員會建交內政委員會宣讀完畢第35案 海洋委員會橫送海洋保育法順行細則 全球委員會建交內政委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2379.699,"end":2393.955,"text":"第36案海洋委員會函送海洋保育獎及課程實施辦法陳修委員會結交內政委員會宣布完畢第37案海洋委員會函送劃定海洋庇護區之核心區損失補償辦法陳修委員會結交內政委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":2397.139,"end":2415.129,"text":"第38案 海洋委員會含送海洋保育審議會設置辦法 全球委員會建交內政委員會 宣布完畢第39案 海洋委員會含送海洋保護區以外海洋其他有效保育措施之區域認定辦法 全球委員會建交內政委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":2416.67,"end":2440.006,"text":"第一次選案 海洋務委員會含送《公告海洋保育法》第28條第三項之書面告知格式 產修委員會結交內政委員會 宣讀完畢第一次選案 海洋務委員會含送《海洋保育觀察員資格取得及管理辦法》產修委員會結交內政委員會 宣讀完畢第一次選案 海洋務委員會含送《海洋庇護區之緩衝區及永續利用區內申請許可辦法》"},{"start":2443.989,"end":2457.383,"text":"第四十三案 海洋委員會橫送海洋生物資源調查及保育措施執行辦法第四十四案 海洋委員會橫送海洋動物培育或野方執行人員教育訓練證書費收費標準"},{"start":2462.668,"end":2485.197,"text":"第四十五案 海洋委員會函送取締或舉辦違反《海洋保育法案》兼獎勵辦法陳修委員會兼交內政委員會宣傳完畢第四十六案 海洋委員會農業部函送《海洋生物服務域措施辦理原則及實施辦法》陳修委員會兼交內政經濟良委委員會宣傳完畢第四十七案 農業部海運修正政府"},{"start":2485.797,"end":2502.033,"text":"部門執行權照護管理規則第六條之一及第八條條文財修委員會建交經濟委員會宣讀完畢第四十八案金融監督管理委員會海外修正公開發行公司財務報告及營運情形公告宣佈特殊使用範圍辦法第三條條文"},{"start":2505.956,"end":2524.566,"text":"第四十九案金融監督管理委員會海外修正住宅地震防線危險分散機制實施辦法部分條文財修委員會建交財政委員會宣布完畢第五十案金融監督管理委員會海外修正金融消費者保護法第四條第二項授權規定財修委員會建交財政委員會宣布完畢"},{"start":2525.606,"end":2545.8,"text":"第五十一案 財政部喊維修生財政部國有財政署編支票 財修委員會兼交司法及法制財政兩委員會 宣讀完畢第五十二案 教育部喊維修生教保服務人員條例順行細則第九條及第十二條條文 財修委員會兼交教育及文化委員會 宣讀完畢第五十三案 教育部民主"},{"start":2546.38,"end":2572.072,"text":"原住民族委員會 海外修正各位其中的一項學校及幼兒園原住民族與獅子培育及併養辦法陳修委員會兼交教育及文化內政兩委委員會宣讀完畢第五十四案文化部橫送國家鐵道博物館儲備署門票收費標準陳修委員會兼交教育及文化委員會宣讀完畢第五十五案文化部海外修正文化創意產業發展法第十條正義檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法"},{"start":2576.715,"end":2590.508,"text":"第56案 文化部韓文修正古蹟修復及暫利用辦法第11條條文第57案 文化部韓文修正水下文化資產保護區化石及管理辦法第25條16條文第56案 文化部韓文修正水下文化資產保護區化石及管理辦法第25條16條文"},{"start":2597.054,"end":2615.899,"text":"第五十八案 交通部內政部海外修正違反道路交通管理事件統一採訪基準及處理細則第二條附表並自114年6月30日實行財修委員會兼交交通內政兩委委員會宣讀完畢第五十九案 交通部內政部海外修正道路交通標誌標先號設置規則第170條條文財修委員會兼交交通內政兩委委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2620.74,"end":2623.141,"text":"無異議通過下言無異議通過下言"},{"start":2641.872,"end":2654.36,"text":"第六宣案 考試院行政院行為公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法明確修正委公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法並修正條文裁處院會見交司法及法制度委員會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2655.501,"end":2678.61,"text":"第六十三案 考試院行政院行為修正 各警官適用議事人員人事條例主義藍標 陳修緣會建交司法及法政務委員會 宣傳完畢第六十四案 考試院行政院行為114年5月15日修正 各警官學校聘護人員離職及與辦法 第三條條完整實行日期定自114年7月1日實行 陳修緣會建交司法及法政務委員會 宣傳完畢"},{"start":2680.091,"end":2703.437,"text":"第69案 環境木炭為廢止水中生化需要量檢測方法 NIEAW-510.55B 全區委員會兼交社會福利及外向環境委員會 宣布完畢第66案 環境木炭送排放管道中總氮金化合物等自動檢測方法 新生物業粒子化專層法 NIEA-723.77B 全區委員會兼交社會福利及外向環境委員會 宣布完畢"},{"start":2704.597,"end":2722.183,"text":"第67 環境部海外廢止排放管道中總氮氫化合物等自動檢測方法心酸火液粒子化專測法NI1A723.76B全球運用會建交社會福利及核心環境運用會巡弋委員第68 環境部反送水中生化血氧量檢測方法"},{"start":2722.763,"end":2745.41,"text":"NIAW510.56B 財修委員會 接交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣讀完畢第69案 環境部海維修生乾淨時回收清除處理費費率 財修委員會 接交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣讀完畢第70案 環境部海維修生容器回收清除處理費費率 公告事項 立下副表財修委員會 接交社會福利及衛生環境委員會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2747.711,"end":2767.689,"text":"第七宣案 環境部卡維修生物品或其包裝容器及其應付回收清除處理責任之業者範圍公告事項第六項 第六項主義及第一項表一 第二項表二陳修援會建交社會福利及衛生環境委員會宣讀完畢委員通過報議會第七十二案至五百四十案"},{"start":2769.393,"end":2796.292,"text":"會請依序宣讀其中第七十二、八三至八十八、九十、九十一、一百三、一百三十二、一百三十四、一百四十九、一百五十六、一百七七、兩百一十九、兩百二十五、兩百三十二、四百五十七、四百七三、四百八十一、四百八十六、五百二十九案台灣民眾黨黨團提議改交審查宣讀之後以上提案均改交相關委員會審查"},{"start":2798.847,"end":2825.214,"text":"區議案均照程序委員會意見通過請委員會有異議沒有異議我們就開始宣讀宣讀之後通過請宣讀第七二案是第166案內政部第167案原住民組委員會第168案是第214案海洋委員會第215案國防部第216案是第233案財政部第234案是第273案金總監督管理委員會第274案是第276案行政院主席總署"},{"start":2825.974,"end":2854.833,"text":"第二屆7案 指第287案 教育部第288案 指第311案 核能安全委員會第312案 指第322案 國家科學及技術委員會第323案 指第324案 中央研究院第325案 指第432案 交通部第43案 指第451案 行政院公共工程委員會第452案 指第456案 司法院第457案 指第458案 監察院第459案 考試院第460案 指第470案 立法院秘書長"},{"start":2855.834,"end":2875.18,"text":"第四期一案 集體四期二案 權序部第四期三案 集體四八九案 房屋部第四九零案 集體四九一案 股市管第四九二案 集體四九三案 財政部第四九四案 集體四九七案 金融監督管理委員會第四九八案 集體五一五案 文化部第五一六案 集體五二六案 數位發展部"},{"start":2875.62,"end":2901.221,"text":"第五案 經案 追締五三五案 衛生福利部第五三六案 國家發展委員會第五三 經案 追締五四零案 國立故宮博物院判為一百十四年度中央政府總運算中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第五期特別運算等運算決議分別檢訟相關報告宣讀完畢委員會第五百四十一案 以下一併宣讀宣讀後準語被查 請宣讀"},{"start":2901.98,"end":2902.96,"text":"好 謝謝報議員會現在我們開始進行討論事項"},{"start":2930.68,"end":2954.466,"text":"丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例草案行政院韓情審議及本院國民黨團、臺灣民眾黨團、陳庭飛委員等、林靜憲委員等分別提案經第三會期第二四次會議的決定,併案盡附二讀"},{"start":2956.086,"end":2983.045,"text":"並請本席負責召集協商王美惠委員等蔡易瑜委員等邱益穎委員等賴慧園委員等伍麗華委員等分別提案經第三會期第25次會議決定盡附二讀與相關提案並按協商官員會本案現已完成協商請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":2985.802,"end":3003.403,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論時間114年8月13日星期三下午23時12分至7時21分地點立法院紅樓302會議室協商主題甘納斯颱風及728豪雨災禍復原重建特別條例草案案協商結論一"},{"start":3004.904,"end":3030.591,"text":"寫上通過名稱第一條至第八條及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第九條第十條均含立法說明如附件一二 通過附帶決議實項如附件二三 院會不再新收附帶決議四 各黨團委員提案及修正動議均列入公報紀錄含台灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條委員陳廷輝等17人提案第五至第九條"},{"start":3031.531,"end":3059.87,"text":"委員武麗華等21人提案第6條第7條等5 本案於8月15日星期五院會上午報告事項必進行處理處理必在請行政院院長及相關部會所長依原定議程於同日列席報告備詢6 各黨團同意本案於同日完成三讀並不提出附議條次引述條文部分文字及原引條次授權議事人員處理"},{"start":3061.471,"end":3089.628,"text":"本案三讀後發言由臺灣民眾黨黨團推派一人民進黨黨團推派二人國民黨黨團推派二人輪流交叉發言順序授權一事處理協商主持人韓國瑜江啟臣協商代表傅坤祺王鴻維羅志強鄭天才柯建民吳思耀陳培宜黃國昌張其凱陳昭芝宣讀完畢請問院會對以上協商結論有無異議沒有異議我們就"},{"start":3091.038,"end":3116.833,"text":"本案就主條討論時 進行協商結論進行處理丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例草案 請宣讀名稱照協商條文通過 請宣讀名稱丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例 宣讀完畢照協商名稱通過 請宣讀第一條"},{"start":3117.697,"end":3145.552,"text":"第一條 為安全有效迅速推動丹納斯颱風及飢餓爆紅雨至災後復原重建工作及災民救助落實專管專用並強化監督特制定本條例本條例為規定者以災害防救法及其他相關法律之規定辦理但其他法律規定較本條例更有利於災後復原及災民重建者適用最有利之法律宣讀完畢趙協商條文通過 請宣讀第二條"},{"start":3146.325,"end":3157.226,"text":"第二條本條例鎖定災區為因丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後之受創地區其範圍有行政院公告之宣讀完畢照協商條文通過請宣讀第三條"},{"start":3157.915,"end":3176.233,"text":"第三條本條例最主管機關為行政院公共工程委員會本條例最中央主行機關為中央各目的事業主管機關地方主行機關為直轄市政府縣市政府及鄉鎮市直轄市三地原住民區公所宣讀完畢照協商條文通過請宣讀第四條"},{"start":3177.113,"end":3192.685,"text":"第四條本條第一範理是災區復原重建項目主項一 農業設施一 農路林道及農業運輸設施二 溫室網市 倉促 畜舍 禽舍 化製廠堆肥廠 資產市及農機具市三 農作物"},{"start":3194.546,"end":3213.004,"text":"補職與種苗等設施及設備四 農業機具及設備五 漁港漁船及養殖設施二 電力系統一 編電所及特高壓以上輸電線路二 配電網防災任性三 路單及公共照明設施四 緊急備用電力系統移動式電源"},{"start":3213.524,"end":3227.681,"text":"自發自用電源及儲能等微電網設施三 電信系統及有線廣播電視系統一 公眾電信網路二 行動通信基地台車三 衛星通信邊緣設施四 有線廣播電視系統"},{"start":3229.923,"end":3250.298,"text":"4.自然水瓦斯基燃氣設施1.自然水及檢疫自然水設備2.瓦斯基燃氣管線3.家園及公共設施1.災損住宅拆除修繕補助及促進補貼2.公共建築學校及政府機關構設施3.文化資產與原住民族文化健康戰支緊急搶修及修復"},{"start":3251.278,"end":3260.803,"text":"六 水利設施一 河川排水上升下游系統實施理農田水利觀看系統海岸防護設施疏進清淤及土方清淤處理二"},{"start":3263.686,"end":3284.984,"text":"雨污水下水道及道路排水三 三部地整治及土石流防治四 淨流分擔出流管制及在地滯洪措施五 縣市管河川排水設施災後復原重建工程及跨越中央管河川排水平井段橋樑改建七 道路及交通一 道路橋樑及隧道"},{"start":3285.584,"end":3300.151,"text":"二 道路邊坡防護及護岸工程三 交通耗質標誌與護欄等附屬工程及設施八 環境衛生復原一 災後廢棄物清理 環保設施修復及環境復原二 災後疾病防治"},{"start":3301.051,"end":3318.37,"text":"九 社會復原及產業促進一 災害救助心理輔導及社會支持二 振興地方產業及企業災後跌利貸款等復原措施三 文化觀光旅遊振興四 農業聽人災害現金救助及跌利貸款利息補貼等復原措施"},{"start":3319.051,"end":3346.958,"text":"五 商家援助生產設備代換及產業設施復原十 其他經各中央執行機關認定有復原重建必要之項目辦理前項復原重建項目發給津貼補助救助慰問金 工資及其他給予職資的條件基準金額應解副文件等會認為通貨委辦事項及其他相關事項之辦法由各中央執行機關定之宣讀完畢照協商條文通過 請宣讀第五條"},{"start":3347.642,"end":3370.658,"text":"第五條 本條例所需經費上限為新台幣600億元 則順行事變化擬定相關計畫分期編列特別預算及預算編制與執行不受預算法第23條 第62條及第63條規定之限制前項所需經費來源 等以營用以前年度稅計剩餘或舉借債務之印及每年度舉借債務之額度"},{"start":3371.098,"end":3383.906,"text":"不受國共債務法第五條第七項規定之限制中央政府總預算及特別預算與本條例實行期限之舉下的度和計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算數"},{"start":3386.368,"end":3406.721,"text":"及特別預算稅出總額度合計數之15%本條例實行期間中央政府所舉借的一年雙公共債務未償餘額預算數應依公共債務法第五條第一項規定辦理地方執行機關辦理本條例及災害防救法規定事項所需經費中央政府得核實"},{"start":3407.661,"end":3436.318,"text":"給予補助中央執行機關並得同意受補助之地方政府以代收代付方式執行為因應各項災需救災及復原重建工作之緊急需要中央執行機關得報監監政院統一後於第一項特別宣案未完成法定程序前先行支付起義部分並送立法院備查中央政府補助地方執行機關之經費地方執行機關因依補助之目的及項目之用不得已作他用"},{"start":3436.838,"end":3458.828,"text":"宣讀完畢第六條本條例鎖定災區不再依災害防救法第51條規定公告之災區範圍者及復原重建準有該法有關災區之規定宣讀完畢第七條依本條例規定自各執行機關領取之津貼補助救助慰問金"},{"start":3459.548,"end":3475.114,"text":"公資及其他給予免貸所得稅依本條例規定資格執行機關領取之津貼補助救出慰問金公資及其他給予不得作為抵銷扣押公單保護強制執行之標的宣讀為畢在寫上條文通過請宣讀第八條"},{"start":3476.021,"end":3496.995,"text":"第八條 依本條例編列預算之中央各部會應於本條例實行後兩個月內提出災後復原重建計畫本條例編列預算之中央各部會應將預算之工作計畫實施內容概述及預計實施進度按計送立法院被查 宣讀完畢照宣傳條文通過 請宣讀第九條"},{"start":3498.14,"end":3524.088,"text":"第九條主管機關應設置資訊網站專區提供並與搜尋得以理解之完整資訊主動按月定期公開本條例下列執行進度其內容一第二條鎖定災區之公告二第四條第二項由各中央執行機關訂定執辦法三前條鎖定之內容第十條宣讀完畢在寫上條文通過請宣讀第十條"},{"start":3525.12,"end":3547.121,"text":"第十條本條例及其特別預算施行期間自公佈日施行至中華民國一百十五年十二月三十一日至但第四條第一項第二款第三款及第六款施行至中華民國一百十六年十二月三十一日至本條例及其特別預算施行期間屆滿得經立法院同意延長之宣讀完畢照協商條文通過"},{"start":3548.427,"end":3552.396,"text":"報告院會全案已經經過二讀我們現在依照協商結論繼續進行三讀請宣讀經過二讀這條文"},{"start":3559.454,"end":3588.2,"text":"丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例第一條為安全有效迅速推動丹納斯颱風及728豪雨之災後復原重建工作及災民救助落實專款專用並強化監督特制定本條例本條例為規定者依災害防救法及其他相關法律時規定辦理但其他法律規定較本條例更有利於災後復原及災民重建者適用最有利之法律"},{"start":3588.96,"end":3606.565,"text":"第二條本條例鎖定災區為因丹奧斯颱風及728豪雨災後這受創地區其範圍由行政院公告之第三條本條例之主管機關為行政院公共工程委員會本條例之中央執行機關為中央各目的事業主管機關"},{"start":3607.365,"end":3633.49,"text":"地方執行機關為直轄市政府縣市政府及鄉鎮市直轄市山地原住民區公所第四條本條例辦理之災區復原重建項目如下一 農業設施一 農路領導及農業運輸設施二 溫室網市倉促 畜舍 勤舍化石廠 堆肥廠 資材市及農機具市三 農作物補職與種苗等設施及設備四 農業機具及設備"},{"start":3637.421,"end":3655.457,"text":"五 漁港漁船及養殖設施二 電力系統一 變電所及特高壓以上輸電線路二 配電網防災潤性三 路燈及公共照明設施四 緊急備用電力系統 移動式電源自發自用電源及儲能等為電網設施"},{"start":3656.978,"end":3681.358,"text":"三 電信系統及有線廣播電視系統一 公眾電信網路二 行動通信基地台車三 衛星通信備援設施四 有線廣播電視系統四 自然水瓦斯級燃氣設施一 自然水及簡易自然水設備二 瓦斯級燃氣管線五 家園及公共設施一 災損住宅拆除修繕補助及租金補貼"},{"start":3682.319,"end":3705.291,"text":"二 公共建築學校及政府機關共設施三 文化資產與原住民族文化健康戰爭緊急搶修及修復六 河川設施因河川排水上中下游系統式治理農田水利灌溉系統和防護設施疏去 淨域及土方清運處理五 二"},{"start":3706.486,"end":3729.353,"text":"與污水下水道及道路排水三山坡地層及土石流放置四淨流分擔出流管制及在地滯洪措施五縣市管河川排水設施災後復原重慶工程及跨越中央管河川排水平行段橋樑改建七道路及橋通一道路橋樑及隧道二"},{"start":3730.253,"end":3757.045,"text":"道路邊坡防護及護岸工程三 交通耗質標誌與護欄等附屬工程及設施八 環境衛生復原以災後廢棄物清理環保設施修復及環境復原二 災後疾病防治九 社會復原及產業促進以災害救助心理輔導及社會支持二 振興地方產業及企業災後地利貸款等復原措施三 文化觀光旅遊振興"},{"start":3758.085,"end":3785.128,"text":"四 農業聽訊災害現金救助及滴滴貸款利息補貼等復原措施五 商家援助生產設備汰換及產業設施復原十 其他經個中央執行機關認定有復原重建必要項目辦理前項復原重建項目發給津貼補助救助慰問金 工資及其他給予職資的條件 基準金額應解封文件等委任委託或委辦事項及其他相關事項執辦法"},{"start":3786.149,"end":3809.464,"text":"由各中央执行机关定制第五条本条例所需经费上限为新台币600亿元得适形式变化拟定相关计划分期编列特别预算其预算编制于执行不受预算法第23条第62条及第63条规定之限制前项所需经费来源得以已用以前年度税计生予或取借債务之应"},{"start":3810.044,"end":3821.05,"text":"其每年度舉借債務者額度不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定之限制中央政府總預算及特別預算與本條例稅刑期間之舉債額度和計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額度和計數之15%"},{"start":3831.276,"end":3847.749,"text":"本條例實行期間中央政府所舉借之一年上公共債務未償餘額預算數因依公共債務法第五條第一項規定辦理地方執行機關辦理本條例及災害防救法規定事項所需經費中央政府得何時給予補助"},{"start":3848.269,"end":3876.206,"text":"中央執行機關並得同意受補助之地方政府以代收代付方式執行為因應各項災區救災及復原重建工作者緊急需要中央執行機關得報信協助院同意後與定向特別預算案未完成法定程序前先行支付其一部分並送立法院備查中央政府補助地方執行機關之清費地方執行機關因依補助之目的及項目之用不得已作他用"},{"start":3877.714,"end":3906.653,"text":"第六條本條例鎖定災區不在依災害防救法第51條規定公告之災區範圍者其復原重建準用該法有關災區之規定第七條本條例規定資格執行機關領取執經貼補助救助慰問金工資及其他給予免納所得稅依本條例規定資格執行機關領取執經貼補助救助慰問金工資及其他給予不得作為抵銷扣押供單保或強制執行之標的"},{"start":3907.794,"end":3927.302,"text":"第八條依本條例編列預算之中央各部會應於本條例實行後兩個月內提出災害復原重建計畫本條例編列預算之中央各部會應將預算之工作計畫實行實施內容概述及預計實施進度按計送立法院備查"},{"start":3929.13,"end":3948.036,"text":"第九條 主管機關應設置資訊網站專區提供便於搜尋得以理解之完整資訊主動按閱定期公開本條例下列執行進度及內容一 第二條鎖定債區之公告二 第四條第二項由各中央執行機關訂定之辦法"},{"start":3948.716,"end":3978.164,"text":"三 前條鎖定之內容第十條本條例及其特別預算實行期間自公佈日實行至中華民國一百十五年十二月三十一日至但第四條 第一項第二款第三款及第六款實行至中華民國一百十六年十二月三十一日至本條例及其特別預算實行期間屆滿得經立法院同意延長之宣讀完畢歡迎各位 我們三讀條文已經宣讀完畢請問院會有無文字修正"},{"start":3979.912,"end":4006.672,"text":"沒有文字修正好我們現在做以下決議丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例制定通過歡迎會本條例例條次及條文中之條次授權議事人員調整我們繼續處理朝野協商通過之附帶決議共十項請議事人員一併宣讀附帶決議之內容"},{"start":4010.336,"end":4039.016,"text":"通過附帶決議實項一 為營運花蓮馬灘岩塞湖的重大問題請行政院督導行政院工程委員會農業部經濟部及花蓮縣政府嚴提減災監測疏散和工程方案二 災害重建應以人為本以恢復原有生活秩序為原則主管機關應協助災區地方政府篩選合格修繕合作廠商與專機人員清單建立修繕"},{"start":4040.487,"end":4056.257,"text":"銘合平台協助銘合在民修善事宜災區重建工程簽訂合約廠商需僱用人員時優先僱用災區事業者及優先僱用者政府應給予獎勵相關辦法由中央主管機關定制"},{"start":4058.086,"end":4074.731,"text":"因災害造成之光電設施毀損有嚴重污染環境之餘者主管機關應限其命業者移除藉其為移除者得依法處罰三 針對淹水50公分以下住屋請經濟部水利署邀請地方政府研議納入"},{"start":4075.791,"end":4103.702,"text":"予以救助四行政院以本特別條例之適用範圍內因疑病涵蓋楊柳颱風襲台所造成之災區得依本條例規定支應五考量楊柳颱風直接衝擊台東原準用丹納斯颱風及728海嶼災禍復原重建特別條例以利盡速復原六盤點原住民地區此次風災期間配合政務撤離族人依其處境給予"},{"start":4105.956,"end":4127.829,"text":"從優從素之專案急難救助7政府進而補助修繕對象除中低收入戶以外應納入經地方政府列冊之關懷戶完成災後復原重建8針對災損住宅建築物之拆除修繕與重建補助應考量落實經濟困難"},{"start":4130.701,"end":4146.721,"text":"請行政院研議提高補助金額以加速災禍復原重建久行政院與本特別條例之適用範圍應一併納入揚柳颱風襲台之災區依本條例規定之意以保障災區民眾生命財產之權益時"},{"start":4149.123,"end":4176.485,"text":"針對因水災致住戶淹水之救助不受門牌一戶計算淹水達50公分以上者除依水災災害救助總列及標準第7條發放救助外依本條例每戶發給新台幣2萬元具低收入戶或中低收入戶資格者每戶發給新台幣3萬元行政院承諾遵守本附帶決議宣讀完畢"},{"start":4184.008,"end":4203.05,"text":"報告委員會我們依照協商結論均照案通過現在我們要進行完成立法程序後之發言依照協商結論由各黨團推派代表發言首先請張祺凱委員發言王美惠委員請準備"},{"start":4216.331,"end":4217.142,"text":"不介意的那些"},{"start":4225.626,"end":4252.689,"text":"感謝大家不分黨派我們快馬加鞭今天完成了丹納斯跟728好以後的復原重建特別條例這裡面有非常多的各黨各派也包括台灣民眾黨對我們災民的關懷跟我們的堅持今天通過的三讀條文有台灣民眾黨提出的四大堅持跟重點第一個是"},{"start":4253.67,"end":4274.195,"text":"加碼補助第二個加速重建第三個避免非法移用要專款專用所以我們訂了防偽責條款第四要求要公開透明國會監督在加碼補助的這個區塊我們在明文裡面明定了第一個"},{"start":4275.055,"end":4298.484,"text":"要排除一個門牌只有一戶因為這是受災的很多民眾一個門牌裡面可能有好幾戶另外補助的這個標準從現有的規定之外我們要求每一戶再增加只要是淹水超過50公分的一戶增加2萬塊中低收入戶跟低收入戶增加3萬塊錢另外加速重建"},{"start":4299.164,"end":4313.413,"text":"明確要求在明年底之前要完成所有的重建只有在電力跟通信還有水利這部分延後一年到後年要完成另外防偽責條款是因為審計部明確提出說"},{"start":4315.034,"end":4329.042,"text":"發現台南市在用這個地下道的這個青葉預算竟然非法挪用了九千多萬所以我們明定一定要專款專用我們中央不是給地方這是要救災的復建的這個整個復原重建的錢"},{"start":4330.123,"end":4349.755,"text":"一定要依照目的跟項目不能夠有任何非法的挪用另外我們要求公開透明國會監督中央部會在兩個月內要提出整個重建的計畫然後中央部會把你每一季執行的狀況要送到立法院來被查而且要設置資訊的網站專期每個月公開"},{"start":4370.99,"end":4374.332,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員發言接下來請王美惠委員發言王育民委員請準備"},{"start":4383.012,"end":4383.675,"text":"大家来 大家来"},{"start":4395.614,"end":4419.583,"text":"謝謝感謝我們所有的電視機朋友我們的鄉親家庭大家看到今天在這個宴會裡面今天為了這個風災的條款經過三度也在這個禮拜三經過院長的條約協商之後我今天來完成尤其剛才"},{"start":4420.723,"end":4439.558,"text":"我聽到院長說三道通過的時候想到我們七位那兩個在下的心我相信無論哪一套都為了百姓來撇平來請主以神"},{"start":4440.399,"end":4448.607,"text":"所以說在這個過程當中我們在海的錢是560億提供到680億在這個橋的學生裡面我們有很多人都覺得說"},{"start":4456.474,"end":4479.149,"text":"不需要做不夠的但是在這個過程當中我們可以提出草野學生來賓加強高昂的陷阱來賓我覺得很久很久沒有看到我們這次這麼協和 這麼努力這麼有效率的來通過這個案件"},{"start":4484.772,"end":4502.723,"text":"雖然天災無情也不夠我們的團結有愛所以在這個規定當中我們可以早日來訪戰這個災害因為在這個災害發生的當中非常地困苦非常地難過所以在今天的三十不是你我會開心是災民"},{"start":4514.312,"end":4525.91,"text":"可以有更好的保障以上謝謝王美惠委員的發言接下來我們請王育民委員發言賴惠元委員請準備"},{"start":4534.827,"end":4549.507,"text":"院長各位委員大家好很高興今天我們有關於丹納斯颱風災後重建條例順利三讀通過國民黨黨團在第一時間我們率先提出了整個災後重建條例"},{"start":4550.027,"end":4570.345,"text":"也積極的召集協商更感謝韓院長禮拜三召集協商當中大家迅速的有了共識今天順利完成三讀在這當中國民黨堅持重塑的原則就是救災重建一定要盡速的完成"},{"start":4570.945,"end":4591.873,"text":"有太多的災民無論是嘉義台南的民眾他們還住在這個帆布遮蓋的房屋當中下大雨下一個颱風來他們都非常的焦慮無比所以我們要求所有的重建單位在重建的過程當中一定要秉持重塑的原則盡快完成"},{"start":4592.493,"end":4611.315,"text":"第二點我們也給予了最高的預算在我們的這個條例當中我們把560億提高到600億的重建預算就是希望讓我們所有受災的災民農民還有這一些企業他們都可以得到應該有的補助"},{"start":4613.337,"end":4632.472,"text":"所以我們也希望之後行政院提出的相關預算都必須秉持從寬的原則因為國會已經給了你們最高的預算第三點加速整個雲嘉南地區的防災韌性體系的一個建置跟打造包括從電力"},{"start":4634.213,"end":4655.098,"text":"水利還有通訊這一次的預算也通通都給了相關的預算可以讓政府機關來執行我們希望透過這樣的一個條例我們可以打造更堅韌的防災體系我們可以讓災區的所有的災民盡快回到正常的生活我們一起努力加油謝謝"},{"start":4660.381,"end":4683.667,"text":"謝謝王育民委員的發言接下來我們請賴慧媛委員請發言院長各位同仁大家早上七月八號大納斯風災跟七月二十八號豪雨的重創台南還有嘉義我想"},{"start":4684.867,"end":4714.527,"text":"在這兩個區域裡頭有很多的農作物還有基礎的設施我們的家園我們的產業都受到很嚴重的一個衝擊今天立法院三讀通過丹納斯颱風跟728豪雨災後復原重建的特別條例我們也謝謝將特別預算由本來行政院版的560億提升到現金的600億對災區我的故鄉而言這是一個非常重要的及時的一個支持"},{"start":4715.367,"end":4740.578,"text":"我在這裡我希望我也謝謝因為這一個條例不僅就是增加大了一個軍會的規模況且它攘跨了項目更大那也讓地方政府在執行災後的一個重建更具有彈性同時也規劃了在整體我們施行期間的各種中長期還有"},{"start":4743.018,"end":4762.215,"text":"演成的一個基礎建設不管是電力還是電信還是水利我們也謝謝可以延長到116年的12月31號為災後的韌線建設一流的沖煮了一個時間那也謝謝各位黨團支持附帶的一個結議對淹水50公分以上的住戶"},{"start":4763.416,"end":4784.133,"text":"不再是以一個門牌號為限制並且加碼救助金一般的住戶是兩萬塊低收入跟中低收入是每戶三萬塊這個對弱勢的家庭來講是非常重要的也是救災更貼切的實際的一個需要再一次感謝大家整個過程裡頭其實在"},{"start":4785.034,"end":4806.687,"text":"很多的一個協助我們謝謝社會大眾那我們為中低收入戶爭取了現金的加碼我們希望重建之路不再孤單謝謝賴會員委員發言接下來請登記最後一位第五號張家俊委員請發言"},{"start":4818.527,"end":4846.005,"text":"院長各位同仁早安風雨無情人間有愛今天立法院完成丹納斯颱風及728豪雨重建的特別條例三讀特別感謝韓院長的主持與協商促使朝野合作將多項的核心條文與補強措施納入也證明了朝野的團結合作"},{"start":4846.765,"end":4863.053,"text":"能夠產生非常大的力量這段時間我們看到無數家園被摧毀生活陷入混亂與不安我們知道那一份傷痛與焦慮只有親歷過的人才明白有多沉重我們心中惦記的"},{"start":4864.133,"end":4880.646,"text":"是努力恢復家園的鄉親們特別條例的通過不只是一份法案更是給予他們實質的幫助與重建的希望在原有的條文基礎上我們更進一步的爭取更多的加碼與補強把經費上限從560億提高到600億讓"},{"start":4886.71,"end":4909.865,"text":"所有的資源能夠更加及時的投入我們也支持淹水救助淹水50公分以上者每付多加發2萬元低收入戶或中低收入戶加發至3萬元50公分以下者也應該嚴議給予補助此外我們也要求重建必須優先聘用"},{"start":4910.846,"end":4930.747,"text":"災區的失業者參與復建的工資也必須納入免稅與免扣押的範圍內同時我們也要求中央部會必須每季向立法院報告重建的經費與使用的情況重建之路或許漫長但我們相信只要我們共同努力就能渡過難關"},{"start":4933.189,"end":4942.582,"text":"重建特別條例是我們給予災區的實質幫助與承諾我們會持續監督讓大家早日重回安穩的生活"},{"start":4948.426,"end":4968.727,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員的發言報議會我們討論事項已經處理完畢現在我們休息六分鐘休息之後十點整準時開會請行政院卓院長專案報告並備質詢請行政院院長以及相關部會首長一起列席我們先來休息"},{"start":5601.019,"end":5610.951,"text":"發言會我們現在繼續開會我們進行行政院左院長所提出新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效專案報告並備質詢我們現在請左院長進行報告"},{"start":5633.032,"end":5660.808,"text":"韓院長 江副院長各位委員先進我知道今天在這裡報告的這個事項關於打擊詐欺的工作國人一定不會滿意現在工作的進度但是我要利用報告的時間為一群一直努力在工作的工作同仁"},{"start":5661.803,"end":5682.701,"text":"他們也許是檢警調的同仁也許是銀行的臨櫃人員也許是超商的服務人員也許是散佈在各個社區裡面的相關人員這一段期間以來確實全心全力的投入了整個打炸的工作"},{"start":5684.704,"end":5710.135,"text":"我雖然不敢期待這個報告讓所有的國人滿意但我誠懇的希望給予這一群工作的朋友們 夥伴們多一點的努力我也要求給我們多一點的時間我們會把該做的事情做得更多 做得更好我們期待一步一步的"},{"start":5711.428,"end":5739.12,"text":"把這個全球性共同的犯罪行為當各國都使出了渾身解數在面對犯罪集團的時候台灣在這個工作上我們願意努力地達到我們所設定的目標以及今天我要向大家報告的是把這一群默默工作的夥伴們"},{"start":5740.359,"end":5756.955,"text":"在這段時間的工作的成果我不敢說成績 工作的成果向大院以及國人做一些綜合性的整理面對這種新型態的詐欺犯罪的趨勢"},{"start":5758.666,"end":5781.405,"text":"行政院今年也提出了打炸綱領的2.0我們從策略 從法制跟組織三方面分別來做各種的措施尤其是重點在於從上游的源頭的防治到下游的溯源查緝"},{"start":5783.12,"end":5807.62,"text":"我們更重要的是在精準宣傳以及保護被害人有了新的措施跟方法我們利用人工智慧分析被詐欺受害人他主要的這些族群他的背景跟他的特徵包含他可能是學生他可能是"},{"start":5809.065,"end":5834.732,"text":"退休的人員也可能是某些特定行業的從業人員在過去七個月來發送了五千萬則的政府專屬的短碼簡訊來提醒來告警各位讓大家能夠了解到當你身處在這種新型犯罪時代當中如何提高警覺"},{"start":5836.138,"end":5864.18,"text":"同時我們跟全國一萬三千家的便利商店跟十六萬名金融機構第一線的服務人員通力合作共同推動市詐 賭詐 房詐跟主詐各種的工作今年的一到七月我們就攔阻了八十三億六千四百多元的可能犯罪金額"},{"start":5865.41,"end":5890.881,"text":"也協助警方逮捕了數百名的車手因此我要再一次利用今天在大院報告的機會向全國共同參與這項打詐工作的便利商店店長 店員銀行 信用合作社 農漁會櫃檯人員以及檢警調同仁再致上最高的感謝"},{"start":5892.338,"end":5917.204,"text":"在中央跟地方政府通力合作底下以相關產業公司協力合作我們每個月受理詐欺案件的數量從去年的19000件一直到今年的7月下降到15000件下降的幅度是22.5%那麼"},{"start":5922.159,"end":5945.919,"text":"財損的金額也從131億下降到81億下降的幅度是37.7%到底有哪些詐騙的行為是我們現在主力打擊的對象一個就是假投資第二個是假交友投資"},{"start":5947.25,"end":5974.679,"text":"第三個是假網購第四個是假買家騙賣家第五個是假檢警這五項犯罪形態已經佔受理案件的60%而且財損金額光這五項加起來就達到90%因此這五大類型是政府主要打擊詐欺的目標"},{"start":5976.926,"end":5999.369,"text":"根據我們的統計民眾從遭到詐欺到報案的期間各種樣態有它的時間差我們以假投資詐欺為例將近有95%的受害者要在六個月內六個月他才會發覺自己受騙"},{"start":6000.339,"end":6028.629,"text":"因為一開始可能用各種的話術甜言蜜語投資等等的假象我們到六個月才知道平均來講才知道自己受騙因此相關的打詐的作為要在半年之後才能呈現出它打擊犯罪的一些成效另外假投資詐騙在2024年8月的高峰期每個月有175件"},{"start":6031.121,"end":6050.466,"text":"到今年的7月已經降到86件同期間詐騙的金額是最高峰期2024年的8月是2.8億到今年的7月降到1.3億這都有明顯的下降"},{"start":6051.365,"end":6076.54,"text":"也就是我們實施的打炸綱領2.0以及所有的工作夥伴共同努力我們確實得到了一些看得到的數字的改變但打炸是一個長期的抗戰詐騙手法日新月異千變萬化所以打炸工作我們也會與時俱進不斷的翻新另外我們在五個"},{"start":6078.668,"end":6099.967,"text":"打诈的行为上分别有不同的做法第一个是试诈认识诈骗这个试诈我们从受害人背景的分析我们从他的分年龄分群众分族群来强化宣导今年的一到七月触及了"},{"start":6103.245,"end":6123.814,"text":"9872萬人次同時加強我們在金融機構 行員 超商 電源的試炸能力就是我們這麼多的人次我們給他進行了解讓他了解何謂炸棄的行為這也幫助了主動發現來通報遠景共同攔阻的成效"},{"start":6124.844,"end":6150.666,"text":"第二個賭詐怎麼樣防堵詐騙政府已經跟LINE這個數位平台合作我們已經下架了7.3萬個涉及可能是涉及詐欺的異常帳號7.3萬並持續與網路通訊平台跟社交平台合作主動偵測下架這些可能涉詐的帳號這個工作會持續進行"},{"start":6153.632,"end":6178.292,"text":"第三個是防詐 防止詐騙我們現在大家最常用的Meta、IG、Google以及YouTube這個四大平台我們在新的打詐事法經大院審議通過之後我們利用這個手上的法律工具我們強力地要求它已經要求他們將廣告的實名制一一落實 落地化"},{"start":6179.557,"end":6204.589,"text":"目前新興起來的Trade也在九月份會納入管理因此這些個打詐平台都會在新的法律當中我們有效地來防治我們不僅要求它廣告要實名制甚至要求它在詐騙廣告發現之後要在我們給它的通知期限內必定要下架"},{"start":6205.683,"end":6234.377,"text":"他一定要履行這樣的義務跟責任並且在每個年底要發佈一個透明度的報告讓所有的國人來對這幾個平台我們來對它加以個人以及公眾的評斷什麼樣的平台對社會盡了它的社會責任值得我們信賴值得我們支持我們有大院通過的新市法就讓我們手上有這樣的工具也因此"},{"start":6235.197,"end":6250.545,"text":"对于Meta在过去这段时间它违反了一些实名制的做法我们已经对Meta开罚1600万而且它也照我们未来以后的相关规定一一的落实跟执行"},{"start":6251.994,"end":6269.032,"text":"第四點 在阻詐 就怎麼樣阻止詐騙上政府已經建立了一套疑似詐騙境內金融帳戶的預警機制透過這個所謂的鷹眼系統可以阻止民眾將資金匯往第一個可疑的帳戶"},{"start":6270.752,"end":6298.671,"text":"銀行端會幫大家做這樣的控管所以針對詐騙集團的勾結我們也有新的做法現在詐騙集團勾結到一些不守法不孝的律師或是地政士來騙取一些房地產所以我們也推動了地政作業的新制度會增加一些銀行或是不動產處理方面交易上的一些麻煩這是真的"},{"start":6300.216,"end":6322.766,"text":"但我們都要相信我們也要感謝這些麻煩帶來的麻煩是一時可能保障的權利是永遠希望能夠在這些新的制度底下為國人守護大家辛辛苦苦自己得來的自己的財產讓他沒有受到安全的威脅"},{"start":6324.11,"end":6329.873,"text":"因此在大家另外關心的所謂虛擬貨幣跟洗錢我們也輔導業者要強化關於風險預警的聯防作業在2024年的8月我們涉及詐騙在虛擬資產的金額有30億元左右"},{"start":6344.591,"end":6361.413,"text":"到了今年的7月稍稍下降到26億因為這個到底是一個新興的詐騙手法我們還在做全面的防堵未來我們隨著對這些虛擬貨幣的服務的幣商加強管理之後"},{"start":6362.366,"end":6374.561,"text":"我們有能力可以把這個數字再往更合理的進步去做更多的努力希望大家大院也能可以在制度上法制上相關的支持"},{"start":6375.603,"end":6400.411,"text":"最後一點是懲詐如何能夠懲罰這些詐騙集團截到今年7月檢警調已經查獲了詐騙集團2025團人員超15000人左右查扣的不法所得犯罪也達到了40億元也深化了跨境合作我們在執行跨境合作跟國外跨境合作的打擊犯罪方面一共有1271件"},{"start":6403.922,"end":6425.242,"text":"除了以上這幾項之外我們充分運用科技手法來分析滾動的檢討而且面對外籍人士政府針對外籍旅客來台我們已經在各機場提供了各種外語的宣導提醒旅客第一個不要以身試法第二個要謹記的"},{"start":6426.463,"end":6443.89,"text":"有一些行為應該要提高警覺同時對於外籍的移工除了我們在國際的平台上加強宣導之外我們也會配合外籍移工來自各種不同的國家我們用他的母語來宣導一些世詐的宣導"},{"start":6445.014,"end":6468.047,"text":"我們會廣泛的來做這些工作讓來的人是守法的在這裡幫助我們的家庭幫助我們的產業我們也協助他 保護他基本他的經濟的安全所以在這些個過程上面強化源頭管理完成建置網路詐騙通訊查報網也是我們在"},{"start":6469.83,"end":6495.025,"text":"一年多來所做的一個相當大的一個進展所以每個月民眾會通報三萬則以上的可疑的詐騙的訊息給這個源頭上面的這個查報網另外我們在打詐儀表板165專線每天會把所有的行為太陽分析之後一一列舉"},{"start":6496.386,"end":6520.672,"text":"國人如果進去看就會知道哪些行為我們沒有想到的它確實是一個詐騙的行為用這樣的教育的方式讓國人知道不要深陷這種陷阱裡面這個是打詐儀表版在過去一年多以來我們持續要求有相當好的進展我們也希望國人多多的充分的利用這個打詐儀表版"},{"start":6521.912,"end":6549.718,"text":"此外我們利用科技的分析我們還有一項工作就是尋找潛在的被害人剛剛說過也許是學生 退休的而且可能比較有閒錢的這些朋友們我們把這些潛在的被害人找出來我們預警的告知他要面臨各種陷阱詐騙的時候提高警覺那這個對象我們已經通報了兩萬五千件"},{"start":6550.908,"end":6576.252,"text":"所以主要的形態有相當多有族群不同有時間差的對案件的了解不同而且打炸綱領2.0各項精進的作為我看到了是這些數字的表現但是我仍然知道這種數字不代表成果但是我至少看到了這一群工作夥伴的努力"},{"start":6577.406,"end":6598.963,"text":"我也知道如果是政府的策略不夠完整不夠全面不夠積極那我們會積極的全力的改進但是這一群默默工作的同仁們一定要得到社會給他們更多的努力跟支持他們才會持續的在他們的崗位上"},{"start":6600.286,"end":6622.111,"text":"檢警調的崗位上銀行員的崗位上超商這些服務人員的崗位上以及所有社區裡面的崗位上繼續陪著幫著每一個國人來防止詐騙集團的橫行所以今天我做以上的報告我知道我們的路還很遠因為"},{"start":6623.916,"end":6645.317,"text":"詐騙集團一直一直地冒出來新興的手法一直一直地出現但是只要我們有這一群工作同仁存在政府能夠積極地提出一些策略跟措施大院能夠適時地給予各種在法治面上的支持台灣向詐騙集團全力打擊"},{"start":6647.526,"end":6671.861,"text":"將這個全球共通的犯罪行為在台灣把它降到最低的這個目標我們有能力跟信心我們一定要達到謝謝大家好 謝謝卓院長的報告報言會我們現在開始進行委員質詢每位委員詢答時間不得超過15分鐘"},{"start":6673.932,"end":6682.982,"text":"輪到質詢委員如果不在場我們視為放棄首先請富坤齊委員質詢黃珊珊委員請準備"},{"start":6709.144,"end":6729.663,"text":"主席請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢副院長好院長好從今天的打造到"},{"start":6731.547,"end":6758.777,"text":"立法院本院來做報告之後下禮拜二就是一般性補助款也要請卓院長到立法院來做相關的說明我想今天很重要的就是台灣現在面臨兩岸的不和平還有對美關稅的問題讓人民洪洪不安因為畢竟台灣85%的產業都是以外銷為主"},{"start":6760.612,"end":6788.348,"text":"那此時此刻台灣人心必須要安定那詐騙集團的橫行已經行之多年立法院不斷的配合行政院給予必要的這些工具跟立法國會都是全面的來支持配合但是到現在為止114年8月"},{"start":6791.407,"end":6814.851,"text":"請問卓院長你剛剛報告完畢到底我們打炸有沒有成效行政院卓院長你身為閣僱你滿不滿意現在打炸有沒有成效政府機關滿不滿意我覺得沒有國人會滿意現在的打炸工作"},{"start":6816.038,"end":6842.757,"text":"但是我剛剛說過這一群工作的同仁還是值得鼓勵國人不滿意的話那院長滿不滿意我自己要求我們從政策上多給予更多的支持我們也給這些工作同仁更多的鼓勵我們從數字的下降來看是有進展的院長不回答我們就來看一下詐騙逼死一家五口啊敲醒政府的警鐘"},{"start":6845.898,"end":6870.991,"text":"詐騙集團逼死台中一家五口政府如何重視還是有曾經關心過詐騙案嗎來 下一頁內湖雙屍母女遭詐騙輕生為了謀財不惜害命這個來累積一六百個詐騙案嫌犯"},{"start":6874.4,"end":6902.077,"text":"被遣送大陸被遣送大陸這個真的是台灣之光是嗎台灣的詐騙已經橫行到全世界然後呢在海外設機房在台灣訓練好之後到海外去行騙全世界不只騙台灣人騙全世界的人只要全世界有華人的地方就是他們下手的目標"},{"start":6903.356,"end":6930.907,"text":"然後這個被押解到大陸去啊這個沒有被判死刑啊大概一輩子也出不來來 下一頁這個炸團啊這個警察空間又逮捕25人炸團橫跨北中南運動員可以看一下嗎 再過來現在不是炸團而已還囚禁被害人然後凌虐致死"},{"start":6932.834,"end":6960.082,"text":"自由時報等等 再來台灣多數金箭浮屍 浮屍炸團黑吃黑 殺人滅口 再來短短兩週 台灣三地有看到三具浮屍 再來從2020年到2023年 因為2023年以後"},{"start":6962.947,"end":6988.543,"text":"大概警政署已經很懼怕人民在看這些資料2023年以後本席跟警政署要他們不做這個資料也不提供了以前在民國60年 70年那個時候台灣民風有多麼善良有一件服侍案全國查抓到為止"},{"start":6992.008,"end":7007.086,"text":"我們現在一年幾百件的腐蝕案幾百件的腐蝕案院長 本席再請教一次您對現在整個政府體系打詐的成果 您滿意嗎"},{"start":7008.855,"end":7037.413,"text":"我認為我跟國人一樣都不會滿意現在呈現出來的成果但是委員剛剛說的那些治安的問題確實是問題它跟打詐之間有沒有百分之百直接的關聯這個值得我們再去分析但是我願意面對治安的問題我們從這個方向來做自我的檢討治安也是行政院的問題打詐也是行政院的問題這個數字讓院長了解就是難辭其咎"},{"start":7039.141,"end":7061.067,"text":"必須睜大眼睛好好來研究怎麼解決來為什麼我們台灣的詐騙如此的猖獗台灣只有6%的人沒有被詐騙過台灣為什麼成為詐騙之島這都媒體的報導再來"},{"start":7069.025,"end":7097.026,"text":"剛剛院長在報告有提到希望立法院能夠全力支持來配合去年打詐釋法我們是不是配合了行政院 配合了法務部打詐新釋法也通過了但是我們完全配合法務部"},{"start":7098.069,"end":7117.487,"text":"配合行政院配合警政署所有需要的工具所有司法勤制單位需要的立法立法院通過以後越打越炸越打越炸 院長"},{"start":7119.724,"end":7147.521,"text":"報告委員我剛剛的數字已經有說明了本席案件下降了百分之二十二今天下降了百分之三十七點五是不是下降我們一步一步來討論我知道這個數字不代表一種成果謝謝你啦你在這裡願會向全民告訴說我們的詐騙案有下降那我們就慢慢來看您剛剛也特別提醒大家要去看那個打詐儀錶板好 我們繼續來台灣為什麼一直被國際點名"},{"start":7150.193,"end":7177.175,"text":"詐騙王國跟洗錢中心台灣善良的寶島曾幾何時會成為國際的詐騙王國跟洗錢中心請您看清楚下一頁聯合國點名台灣是詐騙洗錢中心院長這都是今年"},{"start":7178.431,"end":7196.081,"text":"聯合國的報告4月22號發布的所以打詐釋法中洗錢防治法我們會盡力的把它發揮它的效力 要的工具國會都支持要的經費國會 國會也支持來 下一頁來113年打詐行動綱領去年13.9億今年73.5億一次增加5.6倍"},{"start":7208.78,"end":7217.343,"text":"院長增加了這麼多錢我們來看一看成果再來2020到2024從2023年2024年從新政府上台從原本2020年詐騙金額42億到去年的487億"},{"start":7236.26,"end":7254.935,"text":"到今年上半年就481億現在是確確實實聯合國的報告台灣是全世界第一名的詐騙王國院長這個數字有點諷刺院長看一下去年2024年跟2020年"},{"start":7262.748,"end":7264.35,"text":"2020年42億2024年487億遭詐騙金額今年1到6月480億這是不是歷史的偶然 看下一頁"},{"start":7275.656,"end":7290.32,"text":"統計方式不一樣那這個是跟委員報告 這個是統計方式資料來源就是剛剛要跟本席解釋本席沒有請你發言 本席沒有請你發言委員 我講一句本席在跟你討論統計方式不一樣沒有關係 因為剛剛院長的報告本席聽得很清楚 請我們看打詐飲料版"},{"start":7299.861,"end":7311.387,"text":"打造業老闆顯示出來而且這是歷史的偶然看一下今年1月到6月份竟然是888888件這數字怎麼會這麼偶然打造業老闆公佈的上半年的詐騙金額就481億院長再過來看審計部審計部的資料"},{"start":7332.844,"end":7343.349,"text":"不要再講什麼資料又錯誤審計部看到沒有112年89億113年487億審計部資料有錯誤嗎不是審計部錯誤是統計的方式不一樣你可以講糾正檢察院 糾正審計部他的數字寫錯了再過來"},{"start":7363.118,"end":7390.572,"text":"7兆年犯案增加集中在詐欺院長我們的下一代也淪落至此再過來現在車手 車手看那個成長的幅度現在孩子們當車手比跑福菲恩塔賺的還多福菲恩塔是靠自己的勞力努力的去打拚"},{"start":7394.097,"end":7419.989,"text":"詐騙車手卻是用這種方式來賺錢就是我們的孩子趨之若鶩的工作行列這個是不是我可以來說明一下不需要 本席請你你可以到委員會去好好說明院長 我們今天是在跟院長探討資料都不是本席的都是正式公告的再看一下為什麼滿意度會下降這麼多一個行政團隊應該整體來看"},{"start":7423.044,"end":7450.357,"text":"為什麼有這些問題說使用的這些相關的人是不是有足夠的能力來處理這些問題院長 本席今天是語重心長本席很客氣希望院長能夠解決問題今天國會議員在這裡懇切地呼喊請院長拿出辦法來讓台灣不要成為詐騙之島"},{"start":7452.725,"end":7474.712,"text":"國民黨團 立法院都用全力來支持但是辦法要拿出來 能力要拿出來再來 我們希望我們執政者要把心思放在人民身上停止其他的政治動作 院長可以嗎"},{"start":7477.028,"end":7504.147,"text":"行政院一直對於推動業務列為我們優先唯一重要的方向本期是希望共勉之啦好不好本期希望是請院長共勉之把心思放在人民身上不要放在政治身上下一頁藍白三預算這個事情其實各部會首長都說明得很清楚了請行政院各部會的官員不要再把這種"},{"start":7505.359,"end":7529.166,"text":"欺騙社會的行為不要再講再講 拜託不要再說了不要再說就好一句話 不要再說了增加預算因為有新的新增業務我們會配合嘛 就講嘛可以辦追加嘛你下禮拜不是要送進來了嗎我們在今年已經辦了已經增加在裡面了昨天不是通過了下禮拜要送進來啦"},{"start":7530.427,"end":7555.656,"text":"對不對 是我們會很良善的來看待只要院方有需要行政院方有需要也符合人民的需求我們會給予支持嘛一句話 就是剛剛說不要再講這個沒業的事情不要再講了 好不好每個部位有增加是因為他已經列了新增業務昨天啊這個行政院會通過普發一萬塊這是真的跟院長來共勉之"},{"start":7558.143,"end":7574.387,"text":"我們面對美國這麼強大的經濟的壓力各國 先進的國家都在擴大內需 普發現金謝謝院長從善如流我想送到立法院來我們會在時程上盡量與你配合"},{"start":7576.339,"end":7597.833,"text":"我期待整個任性的特別條例能夠緊迫的通過我們會依據編列預算我們會整體來一起討論好不好謝謝委員長當然院長會來 卓院長會再來報告我們也就謝謝了那我想這個蘇花安也正式來核定了讓"},{"start":7600.492,"end":7616.144,"text":"花東人有安全回家的路也謝謝院長您核定了我想擴大內需是很重要的當外在經濟有危機的時候內部我們要全面來提升所以在這裡請院長本席還會再就教花東塊的部分台灣島就這麼小"},{"start":7617.806,"end":7629.234,"text":"華東快 環島路要盡快來做本席為全力的支持 也全力的配合好不好 謝謝院長好 謝謝謝謝副國務卿委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請黃珊珊委員質詢陳培宇委員請準備"},{"start":7650.163,"end":7652.844,"text":"謝謝主席我請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢黃委員好院長早我想今天打詐專報其實國人都非常的關心尤其是我認為詐騙正在傷害臺灣您同意嗎"},{"start":7673.832,"end":7686.745,"text":"這是一個全球性的犯罪行為台灣在這個工作上面我們還要持續的加強還要更加油院長上任之後有所謂的打詐惡典禮的政策從市詐 堵詐 阻詐 懲詐"},{"start":7689.147,"end":7706.994,"text":"那您剛剛說了很多數字我想剛剛大家也都看到了數字現在的問題在於成詐一年前院長記得嗎我們在這裡在立法院通過了打詐專法這個專法通過了整整一年這一年來您覺得成效怎麼樣"},{"start":7708.49,"end":7729.517,"text":"我們在市詐跟防詐阻詐方面前面做很多懲詐但是懲詐可能還需要在刑事訴訟法懲詐的部分院長知道刑事法庭跟我們法務部還有我們立法院甚至跟行政院的立場完全不一樣我們通過的專法被司法院打臉院長知道嗎"},{"start":7731.508,"end":7744.024,"text":"我覺得針點在於如何把犯罪的金額能夠取回以及對被害人如何加強我們去年七月通過了打詐專法經過一年到今年的一月份"},{"start":7745.572,"end":7768.616,"text":"最高法院開一個所謂的刑事大法去解釋我們當時為什麼立這個法立這個法的目的是什麼所以我們的立法意旨講得很清楚要如果你自白或自首繳回你的犯罪所得的話你可以減刑但是法院用所謂的繳回犯罪所得是他得到的酬勞所以一個車手繳回三千塊五千塊他就減刑了"},{"start":7769.056,"end":7784.956,"text":"今天這個法條已經被最高法院大法庭解釋成就是這樣了所以打臉行政院打臉法務部打臉立法院法務部長去年今年五月我問你你說你會修法有"},{"start":7785.646,"end":7803.2,"text":"法案立法院委員都已經提了案了法務部的草案有不敢拿出來院長你知道為什麼這個跟委員報告不敢拿出來為什麼這個法案現在在那個還在行政院審查所以院長在你桌上了沒因為還要再請司法院來一起來做一個討論我要問院長院長你看到了沒"},{"start":7808.53,"end":7822.786,"text":"他要修法你知道嗎部裡面送出來草案通常程序上還有經過政委他一個月之後就修了我們6月21號立政委員會已經排了他也拿出他的草案了但到今天8月15號沒有任何影子"},{"start":7826.472,"end":7844.712,"text":"這對修法的方向應該是明確而且可以進行是什麼時候要送來這個立法一直這麼清楚這個司法院完全不聯絡院長我再告訴你更可笑的當天6月21號內政部排審法案的時候法務部把他的草案拿出來司法院的代表告訴我們他第一次看到"},{"start":7846.527,"end":7870.229,"text":"你們事先不聯絡了嗎你們在立這個法之前沒有告訴司法院你們的態度嗎第二個要說草案的有沒有跟他討論過呢這是在行政審查中一定會請司法院來表示意見院長我現在說的是一個行政院一個法務部如果我們的法案不跟司法院討論你再送過來就白搭所以現在行政審查中有請司法院來表示意見嗎你做的事情你都做了我知道可是我們司法院不理你啦"},{"start":7872.144,"end":7897.245,"text":"國務院長 你要不要去協調一下司法院跟行政院是不是不聯絡這件事情呢我們這個有修法 我們是修法的方向我們就採用德國的立法例來做一個修理我要問院長報告委員 我們包括這個保護被害人以及我要說的是 行政院跟司法院要不要聯絡當然 我們說除了包括這個保護被害人的修法再來修 立法院再幫你通過然後司法院照樣不判"},{"start":7898.37,"end":7917.498,"text":"我都還沒講完保護被害人以及承受共犯幾個案子當中你要不要跟司法院溝通我說我們這個都會積極跟司法院在談判當中會積極跟司法院溝通就不會發生這種事我給你個時間現在是8月5號下個會期開議前你可以把法案審查來嗎審查完之後我們就會送到司法院你要什麼時候送到立法院來"},{"start":7924.856,"end":7938.861,"text":"審查他必須經過 打詐要打真的啦今天這個專報完了之後你法院還是這樣子辦 你撐什麼詐下個會席送過來可以嗎 當然是要打真的你我都可能受害我們旁邊的親人都可能受害 下個會席可以送來吧"},{"start":7939.639,"end":7959.444,"text":"我們現在已經在 九月份可以送來吧九月份 下個會期我覺得應該是 一定可以送來 院長這很重要你的懲詐就在這裡面我現在給你看一個影片 這個的確是很重要所以我們那個草案不是只有這個個人的一個報仇說跟被害的損害的我現在要給院長看影片喔 謝謝26個被害"},{"start":7969.497,"end":7976.869,"text":"他是一個車手他交保了他出來教人家怎麼詐騙他在假釋"},{"start":7985.306,"end":7991.888,"text":"他說拿著他的判決書去詐騙集團一定會百分之百被錄取真的假的你看你這個判決書這麼多"},{"start":8020.84,"end":8039.331,"text":"好 請切掉院長 這是詐騙犯詐騙犯這麼囂張出來之後在假釋期間還可以拍這種影片然後告訴大家說他的判決書就是他的履歷表這在台灣 看到這個人也很年輕現在台灣的年輕人可能認為詐騙集團很光榮啊"},{"start":8041.744,"end":8055.95,"text":"現在才是這個問題我想這個是很可惡的一個行為很可怕很可惡這個假釋犯你查出來好不好這個個案查出來有沒有這樣的事情部長這個個案查出來這個在假釋的人查出來把這個個案要找出來這樣的行為如果還放在社會上讓他犯罪不應該這個先處理吧我們未來針對被害人的保護以及"},{"start":8071.938,"end":8094.017,"text":"具體的酋刑乃至於考慮到未來這些人的禁舍令我們都是在修法的概念當中趕快進來吧我們趕快幫你修吧不要再等了吧一年了成效如果只有這樣的話還有這麼一個影片的話我是覺得成效真的很不好下一個接下來是這是第一個今天大家都在談數字大家就看一下"},{"start":8095.759,"end":8108.725,"text":"這個數字剛剛部長一直說這是統計方法的問題我同意統計方法有問題不過這叫做之前都在當遮羞布遮羞布掀開之後所有的金額出來就不一樣這個原來統計數字是以警方做初步調查之後才排了一個數字現在是一個報案的一個數字本來就應該這樣"},{"start":8121.731,"end":8142.107,"text":"之前就是在那邊遮羞吃案所以這個不能講說是遮羞吃案這個反正就是在那邊我等於是說之前就是故意不報現在就是按照被害人說的算不是這樣的接下來院長你看到這個數字還是觸目驚心第一個你們的數字我不知道我這個是我們從打債儀表板8月份的統計數字2024年到502億 12.2萬件現在2025年1到7月就566億"},{"start":8148.832,"end":8167.593,"text":"你剛剛說的下降我同意可能它逐步在下降但是統計起來還是很可怕而且我跟委員報告因為整個一個兆團的一個兆區的形態的一個改變以前是電化兆區所以那個金額比較少現在的建樹其實是有在下降的建樹小 數字大這也是一個投資的一個兆區所以它那個數額會比較高"},{"start":8169.894,"end":8196.064,"text":"所以不要再自我感覺良好他是在增加所以大家看那個詐騙的數額也不能夠虧錢冒所以我們重視這個被害人跟被害的件數是有下降的一個趨勢來簡單的說這裡就是去年8月的數字這裡是今年7月下降的幅度當然緩慢但趨勢是有的我們會再努力你如果做這麼多事還沒有下降真的是"},{"start":8197.364,"end":8198.325,"text":"請尊重一下執勳的委員好嗎"},{"start":8211.121,"end":8232.1,"text":"所以这个数字我希望看到的是它逐步的下降不管任何统计方式都不应该有这么大的偏差最严重的是诈骗里面投资诈骗占了多数投资诈骗我看到你们报告是说占了所有诈骗里面23%财存占了64%也就是说金额很高件数不见得最多"},{"start":8233.061,"end":8255.266,"text":"但是投資詐騙裡面很多都是所謂的六個月才發現九成五三十天之內一半數所以意思就是說養套殺的狀況很嚴重養套殺是因為他對金融不了解或者是他對現在的金融商品不清楚很容易受到所謂的社群很容易受到所謂的廣告他就受到的影響"},{"start":8256.346,"end":8271.374,"text":"所以這個剛剛講了很多的社群軟體要管理第二個我們現在有一大的最大的問題是虛擬資產虛擬資產是金管會的管轄虛擬資產在113年度審計部的總決算的審核報告針對所謂的虛擬資產的管理其實院長 虛擬資產你知道現在的進度到哪裡了嗎"},{"start":8285.403,"end":8303.568,"text":"我們要用工會來管理所以虛擬資產它有一個專法也一樣送進去行政院了請問什麼時候要送來立法院是我們6月27號送進院院裡面由政務委員已經開始在審查已經開過會議院長你可以去催啊 快一點啊"},{"start":8304.808,"end":8329.511,"text":"為什麼大家都不知道在台灣買哪些業者是合法的搞不清楚狀況每天都被人家騙可以趕快讓專法進來讓所有願意在台灣落地合法的業者能夠盡快的讓他們納入管理讓所有的民眾知道我要去哪裡買虛擬資產不是現在到處被人家亂騙一通"},{"start":8332.335,"end":8357.645,"text":"金管會六月就進來了所以院長下個會期送來吧快吧 快嘛 加鞭案子都在 我就在等院長講了在你桌上你就趕快合啊只要趕快送到你桌上你來吹啊現在已經在那個審查中了他們都送了啦就是你們行政院我不知道啦動作慢半拍還是怎樣打詐是所有你的施政裡面我認為最急要的"},{"start":8358.496,"end":8374.977,"text":"而且都有法案只是還沒有送到院長桌上接下來是剛剛講的打詐成效神蹟部院長你覺得我們接下來還可以改善什麼打詐的成效神蹟部其實有講過耶你覺得現在還可以改善的是哪些"},{"start":8376.198,"end":8389.641,"text":"我覺得還是要從剛剛委員所提到懲詐後端就被害人的保護這方面應該再加強第二個我剛才說審計部他其實說過了他說其實最嚴重的是我們165人力不穩定"},{"start":8390.097,"end":8407.121,"text":"第二個沒有建立打炸成效的量化指標現在好像建立了第三個是165的量能不足去每年仍然有將近五萬通電話就被漏接了所以院長165可能是一個需要改進的地方"},{"start":8407.728,"end":8436.846,"text":"那我會跟內政部跟165專線來檢討是不是要擴充 是 人力不足漏接電話 造成了後端沒有辦法懲詐我們用AI的方式來盡量能不能技術的導入這個可能要快再接下來一個是 院長剛剛也看到大家都說了我們發生台中豐原的五口的命案不管他們的原因是什麼他最嚴重的是他們求助我們走投無路 家破人亡"},{"start":8438.121,"end":8467.612,"text":"這是台灣人最深切的悲哀為什麼他們沒有辦法得到幫助找不到人協助甚至走上絕路我想這個是一個很嚴重的另外一個就是他們碰到了更嚴重的是剛剛講你剛剛講地震拿房子去抵押炸團還幫他介紹金主去貸款在借永無止盡的借今天另外一個問題叫做融資公司"},{"start":8468.686,"end":8485.512,"text":"融資公司已經成為詐騙集團的共犯甚至有一些當鋪有一些相關的人他都變成跟詐騙集團說你們來借他錢繼續被我騙然後因為你是善良的第三人你借他錢你沒事啊"},{"start":8486.624,"end":8512.245,"text":"所以現在的融資公司一樣經管會我們在立法院也提了融資公司專法然後監察院在114年的4月就告訴大家監察院認為說現在公股銀行融資給這些所謂的民營的租賃公司是有問題的第二個是 接下去是行政院應該要有專法院長 這件事情你知道嗎"},{"start":8513.206,"end":8542.926,"text":"我們也在往這個方向在做經管會一直努力也時常跟我做說明現在經管會只管大不管小啦當然主委很幫忙已經納入經保法我們是逐步納管啦接下來主委我還是要講院長這件事情可能也是跟打詐有關如果融資公司我要先講馬來西亞在7月份通過了他們的轉法馬來西亞針對非銀行的借貸業者全部納入管理而且有監管條例"},{"start":8543.746,"end":8564.933,"text":"這是台灣可以學習 可以接近的可以嗎 院長至少要納入你的打詐的長期的目標我們不僅跨境打擊合作我們也希望吸取更多的國際好的經驗最後 我覺得政府的資訊公開是人民比較不會受到詐騙的重要的關鍵包括一萬塊 包括這些資訊都要完整的揭露好嗎"},{"start":8568.612,"end":8592.352,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會首長備詢 謝謝卓院長喝口水吧 我在等你喝水好 謝謝接下來我們請陳培餘委員質詢 羅志強委員請準備"},{"start":8599.448,"end":8617.053,"text":"好 謝謝院長那有請卓院長 謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢陳委員好好 卓院長早安我想我就藉著這個剛剛黃珊珊委員提到的165來 第一張"},{"start":8619.945,"end":8637.276,"text":"這個是內政部警政署的165打詐儀表版我必須要說這個資訊其實對於非常多人想要認識詐騙真的很有幫助現在我的截圖上所顯現的數字是詐騙案件受理數也就是每一個當天有收到報案的電話"},{"start":8638.016,"end":8656.332,"text":"我說的是有收到報案然後呢當時我們組織了多少的金額其實相關的數字非常非常清楚我想我要鼓勵這個部分因為剛剛院長您在做業務報告的時候也說在回答富坤啟文的時候你也說我們必須要持續給予現場的工作人員鼓勵這件事情"},{"start":8656.912,"end":8680.31,"text":"因為詐騙的科技詐騙的心法說實話是日新月異而且從古至今不管是童話故事民間真實的生活其實壞人走的都比好人還要快我想這個現實是我們目前在做打詐業務最大的困境所以要拜託行政院繼續支持這個打詐儀表版的工作我認為這個非常重要下一張"},{"start":8681.857,"end":8700.404,"text":"我覺得這個也很棒最新詐騙案例然後有非常非常多的故事甚至還有語音播放這一次為了要做這個打詐專報的跟院長您的對話我自己很認真看了這個網站看了很多我覺得這件事情我們還有沒有機會透過數位影音化"},{"start":8701.084,"end":8719.726,"text":"因為說實話大家現在每天回到家滑手機可能沒有力氣看這麼多文字我不確定像這樣的文字內容或者是原來這麼多奇奇怪怪的詐騙案例我們可以怎麼樣讓更多國人看見跟更多國人知道我先跟部長分享一個案例院長對不起來下一張"},{"start":8722.46,"end":8729.951,"text":"這個是另一種注目這個是一個電視公司他們拍的專輯大概有30分鐘這裡面他們說記者在這裡面48小時連續拍48個小時他們記錄了165"},{"start":8737.222,"end":8752.413,"text":"接線人員的辛勞跟他們所面對的困境我想我必須要幫他們拜託部長跟院長有沒有可能我自己發現從這個片子裡面後來也上網查了一些困境一個是他們其實在第一線每天平均要接超過1500通電話這個是有接進來的"},{"start":8754.875,"end":8780.772,"text":"然後呢 這個電話當中他們不是只是告訴當事人說你真的被騙囉 你真的被騙了他們還得去說服當事人說沒有啦 他真的是騙你的我覺得我光是看那個螢光幕前的故事我都覺得心累這個30分鐘的紀錄片裡面呢他還拍到說長官還為了照顧他們的身心健康還有放了一些例如說夾娃娃機啦然後現場如何讓他們的工作狀態是舒適的可是說實話"},{"start":8781.893,"end":8805.302,"text":"在接到這麼多詐騙電話的過程當中我認為心累身體勞累但我們有沒有機會再增加現場的服務量能這是第一個第二個我知道內政部其實長期有在關心遠景身心健康這個非常重要但我也很想跟部長您討論我認為165的這個第一線接電話這些同仁他們的身心健康所需要的服務可能跟第一線遠景"},{"start":8806.542,"end":8828.549,"text":"的狀態是不一樣的例如說這裡面好幾個工作人員講到的話我非常印象深刻其中有一個人說他騎摩托車回家下班的時候他都覺得他有幻聽一直聽到電話聲那我也可以想見如果我每天在那邊排班要8到10個小時電話一進來我就要立刻按平均一通電話可能20分鐘我要勸那個人甚至我要教那個人怎麼報案甚至樓上還有"},{"start":8829.489,"end":8850.198,"text":"負責比較高科技處理的人還要下來對現場街道那些狀況也就是說他們在現場街道的狀況是已經看得懂的詐騙還有看不懂的詐騙還有打電話進來的人的身心疲勞這件事情其實讓所有工作人員非常非常辛苦所以我想在針對相關議題進行討論實質政策我們可以做什麼之前"},{"start":8850.638,"end":8865.833,"text":"我可不可以拜託部長跟院長我們如何協助165這些現場的工作同仁可以有更好的身心健康支援謝謝委員的關心我想我們的165的第一線的同仁基本上是警政署的保醫總隊那我們現在已經增加到47人"},{"start":8868.141,"end":8888.252,"text":"這些分三班都非常的辛苦在工作院長也多次到現場去慰問而且我們採取的是多國的語言包括我們要協助移工或是其他的外國人也都包含在內所以我們現在要除了人力增強以外還要增加了就是有關技術面的部分譬如說我們把圈存的通報電子化"},{"start":8888.972,"end":8912.462,"text":"從今年年初的時候已經開始了就是說把它改為由系統的線上作業不需要再用紙本的傳真另外一個就是接通率的目前為止已經提升到86.6%再來就是我們要建置一個新的系統這個新的系統就是剛剛院長有跟各位委員報告的就是我們想要導入AI的人工智慧的技術重建原有165的系統功能"},{"start":8913.442,"end":8938.574,"text":"這個就是為了服務165的近線電話裡面能夠馬上得到警政署的協助另外一個也非常謝謝陳委員的關心有關在第一線處理反詐或者是說接聽電話的同仁他們的身心健康我想我們本來就有關注到這一點我們會來持續加強如果有必要的話我們還是會請專業的心理諮商師來介入希望他們能夠保持在職場上面一個健康的狀態"},{"start":8939.654,"end":8958.668,"text":"對 因為我真的看了這個片子我重複看了兩遍我真的很心疼他們因為作案那邊真的壓力山大而且可能打進來電話那個人錢其實已經匯款出去了因為現在有非常多詐騙其實是線上匯款不見得是尤其是剛剛院長有講到我們有第一線的銀行人員在阻詐這件事情確實已經受到成效"},{"start":8959.068,"end":8982.995,"text":"可是其實更多的是數位科技甚至當我們好人端這邊在運用AI不要忘了壞人也在運用AI所以其實有90%是透過線上這件事情所以真的要拜託部長跟院長我想就身心健康這件事情也好技術層面也好或者是多國語言這些他們現場所增加的服務我們在後端給予他們更多的支持好不好謝謝部長跟謝謝院長那我們接下來看一下謝謝"},{"start":8984.44,"end":9008.414,"text":"下一張這個數據會說話其實剛剛兩位委員都提到相關數字我要先提醒大家如果我們看111跟112跟113其實數字是又上升又下來那一定這個數字背後代表一些趨勢那趨勢的原因到底是什麼我認為原因非常的複雜多元大概沒有辦法用單一的原因來看可是我要談的是這個是確實全世界的人民在面對的現實"},{"start":9009.815,"end":9028.295,"text":"如果願意關心國際新聞就知道其實美國這幾年從疫情開始非常多而且針對不同國家不同語言的詐騙也非常非常多那如果我們回到台灣我比較關心的是兒少的部分從詐騙來看兒少怎麼說呢在投影片的左手邊矯正學校的數字"},{"start":9030.817,"end":9058.596,"text":"29.3%都是跟詐騙有關右手邊是少關所所收容的學生也都跟詐騙有關數字最高也就是說不管是少角校或是部長請回不好意思不管是少角校或是少關所其實都是跟詐騙有關的學生收容最多那關於學生犯罪的部分我認為可以分幾個部分一個是事前預防第二個是行為的處遇第三是後續追蹤我們來看下一張"},{"start":9060.606,"end":9079.752,"text":"好 這一張是我們看到少事法我們知道目前針對事前預防的部分我知道現在我們要增加少年前科三年內沒有在因為故意觸犯刑法或法律而受保護處分或刑之宣告者這個門檻我知道我們要調整對不對 部長"},{"start":9080.74,"end":9099.428,"text":"是這個一定是要做三級的預防這是屬於邵教校裡面的一些的非常重要的一個機制那我想這可以預防也可以在邵教校現在可以要做好然後以後就出校的時候能夠跟社會做現在再一個就學就會可以做一個比較好的一個處理"},{"start":9099.628,"end":9114.934,"text":"部長你覺得我們做這個修法真的有可以幫助少年詐欺犯罪的預防嗎怎麼說因為我認為詐欺這件事情它的背後因素真的非常非常多容我先往後說第一個我知道其實行政院在今年"},{"start":9116.194,"end":9141.673,"text":"新政院3月的時候合訂了一筆經費是4年內我們要投入76億關於預防兒童及少年犯罪方案14到17年我覺得這件事情非常非常重要為什麼要從修法開始談起因為少年青少年現在儼然成為各式犯罪集團非常重要的工具人因為孩子有這個豁免的條款所以導致於這些黑道這些詐騙集團的大人"},{"start":9142.193,"end":9166.448,"text":"他們直覺想到可以利用青少年那我知道我們相關的規劃是希望可以從初級預防二級預防到後續孩子們回歸社會回歸家庭回歸社區的時候有一個好的路可以選擇可是我看到相關的困境是當孩子們在面對自己可能變成詐騙集團或是走進去之後發現好像真的有利可圖有甜頭"},{"start":9167.188,"end":9196.859,"text":"比起他去打工比起他做正常的工作好像容易得多我認為我看見的是孩子們生活的困境他可能是因為家庭的需求家裡面沒有錢 急需用錢或者是個人消費慾望的需求他可能很羨慕同學有新的手機 新的球鞋對 部長不要懷疑新的球鞋可能五六千塊孩子們很想要或者是情感的需求例如說詐騙集團這些大人真的很會接觸小孩的情緒種種的困難其實都不是我們處在光明面的大人"},{"start":9197.421,"end":9214.598,"text":"可以看得見可以接得住的所以我才會問說我們如何在未來一一四到一一七七十六億防止青少年犯罪這一塊我們加入一個這個部分我剛講的如何接住這些孩子原生社區原生家庭在學校的需求跟困境讓他們有"},{"start":9215.459,"end":9244.044,"text":"提早理解更多假設我真的加入了詐團假設我真的成為其中犯罪的一份子或是我被關進去之後我在掃腳效我在掃關鎖我會發生什麼樣的事情我出來還會面對什麼樣的困境剛剛黃珊珊委員播的那個影片大家只有看見快樂的一面可是壞人都是這樣啊他騙你吃蘋果之前他跟你說蘋果很好吃可是他沒有告訴你你吃了毒蘋果你會發生什麼事情我認為我們要讓孩子及早知道這些事情雖然看起來是"},{"start":9244.924,"end":9271.001,"text":"有點像恐嚇但我們轉換一個語法轉換一個說法讓孩子知道你犯了錯你犯了罪我們不會因為你是少年就不告訴你可能會有的後果我想拜託法務部在後續114到117年這個四年防治計畫當中如何加入這個部分也就是在三級預防的前兩級初級預防跟二級預防我們提早加入這個觀念給小孩我想聽一下部長您的回應"},{"start":9272.161,"end":9291.947,"text":"謝謝 的確委員對這個問題很深入了解當然提到宣導面已經讓小朋友讓學生 兒童 少年聽清楚這個絕對不能夠去吃毒蘋果這個是不要被詐團所利用當車手 當搜捕手甚至提供一些的個資的我想這部分我們會全力來做一個"},{"start":9293.1,"end":9315.037,"text":"一個做一個宣導那我想這邊我們跟主管機關來做一個合作主管機關一定還有教育部教育部還有衛福部內政部勞動部還有法務部這幾個部會那以法務部來講的話我們重要是在少教校跟少關所那在學校的這一部分那因為在一個成長在少年這部分"},{"start":9315.277,"end":9338.696,"text":"我也清楚這個少女私人處理我們法務部是沒辦法去碰這個區塊的我知道但是我們有更多初級預防跟二級預防這個本來就是跨部會需要一起努力的好不好我就提出我們的觀察跟問題因為確實少角校跟少關所這幾年也確實被詐騙的孩子們充滿了這個詐欺的部分所以你們其實也會很辛苦那我們來看到"},{"start":9339.156,"end":9365.506,"text":"假設他們真的發生了這些行為然後被放進少角校跟少關所目前我們看到你們相關的輔導的內容我看到有弟子規影片生命重塑靈性生命我知道因為孩子們進來的時間或長或短你們可以發生影響力的時間也或長或短有非常多的變數但我要說我認為相關的課程真的必須要與時俱進到底弟子規我知道我們上次去考察的時候你們跟我說弟子規的老師是有證照的老師"},{"start":9366.926,"end":9388.184,"text":"但是部長我真心要說地址規真的是我們這個世代的孩子他們聽得下去的嘛與其叫他們地址規不如搞不好黃珊珊委員剛剛那個影片更有效他們看完之後你們好好的告訴他們你在前面做的這個壞事看似光鮮亮麗但陰暗面 黑暗的那一面孩子你們必須承受什麼"},{"start":9389.024,"end":9407.25,"text":"我認為這個事情搞不好更實際也就是說相關的矯正課程在做行為處遇的階段我認為我們要更加與時俱進更靠近他們不要忘了他們在被放進哨角跟哨官之前他們可是每天拿著手機看短影片的小孩你突然讓他回到這個"},{"start":9409.195,"end":9435.622,"text":"我們上一個時代在看的弟子規我覺得有嚴重的落差他們根本在裡面就是把眼睛閉起來把耳朵關起來這個要拜託部長所以我認為教化如果要把這麼多課程安排放進來我們的教化人力就要調整輔導人力就要調整可是現在現行我知道國教署有在協助你們但我認為人力是不夠的其實你們自己也非常清楚所以在這個而且這些小孩說實話如果他們在一般校園裡面他們會被放"},{"start":9435.942,"end":9453.199,"text":"放在所謂二級跟三級的輔導回到學輔法的角度他是屬於二級輔導跟三級輔導的對象而二級輔導跟三級輔導他急需要高度的專業去同理他 支持他 接納他他才有可能跟我們大人站在一起說好 我試試看"},{"start":9453.739,"end":9473.212,"text":"我來改邪歸正我來努力看看而這個部分可能也是你們現在缺乏的人力我時間有限我是不是就先把問題提出到這裡拜託部長把相關的意見帶回去不管是少角校 少關所我們在初級 二級 三級每一個階段我們都需要足夠多的專業人力來協助這些已經走上"},{"start":9474.622,"end":9491.649,"text":"不好的路的孩子他們回過頭來他們想要回頭的時候我們大人接得住好不好拜託部長報告委員我曾經要求教育法務部對於經過這些少年處遇的少年犯結束了這個行為處遇之後他進到社會他的再犯率有多高"},{"start":9492.372,"end":9521.055,"text":"研究一下跟原來我們這些矯正或是關乎的這個制度跟內容是不是相關是不是我們必須從這裡改善來讓他們回去社會之後降低他們的再犯率這個是值得我們研究的我今天只是要他們去做好 謝謝院長所以我很謝謝你們收到我的訊息我對於孩子們的關心希望他們還來得及在成年之前回頭試案要拜託我們大人一起努力 好嗎謝謝院長好 謝謝陳培育委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":9525.775,"end":9554.252,"text":"現在在議場二樓旁聽來自屏東縣旅居台北的鄉親團各位好朋友我們掌聲這裡歡迎好 謝謝我們接下來請羅志強委員質詢劉書斌委員請準備主席有請院長"},{"start":9555.336,"end":9580.688,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢副委員好院長好在正式進入主題之前我想先說一個減一加二的小故事我在總統府擔任副秘書長期間大概每個月一到兩次"},{"start":9582.011,"end":9609.61,"text":"都會陪馬英九總統聽取警政署長的治安報告這也是馬總統八年執政幾乎每個月都一定會做的事情每一次治安報告馬總統一定會要警政署長報告一個統計數字就是酒駕肇事致死的統計數字我每次都看著他對著署長講還有辦法再降嗎"},{"start":9611.684,"end":9638.129,"text":"到底這個酒駕照試致死的人數要用什麼方法把它減少呢這個月又增加的原因是什麼就這樣子一直陪著他聽這個治安簡報日復一日重複一模一樣的場景可是有一天馬總統在跟警政署長聽報告的時候他突然嘆了一口氣說他說署長你知道嗎"},{"start":9641.009,"end":9667.007,"text":"這個數字每降個一就代表拯救了兩個家庭的幸福我其實聽了這句話的時候非常感動那時候馬總統可能沒有注意到每降一救的不只是那個可能被害的被害者的家庭他其實也是救了肇事者的家庭一個酒駕肇事致死毀掉是兩個家庭"},{"start":9668.8,"end":9694.109,"text":"那麼馬總統這麼執著在這件事情上有沒有功效呢我分享給院長事實上根據交通部大安會的統計酒駕肇事致死的人數最高峰是2008年陳水扁總統他那時候高峰是一年948人到馬總統2016年卸任的時候下降到399人減少549人"},{"start":9698.311,"end":9720.889,"text":"降幅超過將近60%代表這一連串的反酒駕的措施拯救了549條生命也就是將近1000個家庭這一加二的體貼就跟韓院長曾經說過莫忘世上苦人多其實是同一個心情"},{"start":9722.264,"end":9748.138,"text":"我現在就要進入主題了我想請教院長你對民進黨執政九年打詐成績你打幾分拜託委員不要讓我自己打這樣的分數我剛已經說過了數字不代表任何一個蠻力的程度我知道院長的原則都不會自己打自己分數但是我告訴你這一題如果你去問陳歐破的話他會跟你講一百分"},{"start":9749.657,"end":9774.299,"text":"畢竟陳歐珀住處搜索到一個關鍵筆記本裡面標注曾經收受IMB這個吸金高達83億多的詐騙案主嫌曾耀峰800萬元他可能很滿意我們民進黨執政9年的打詐的成績所以這一題如果是由陳歐珀由詐團來打分數我想應該可以拿到100分"},{"start":9775.404,"end":9795.897,"text":"那我再問如果這個問題拿去問2022年台版柬埔寨案當中被詐欺集團集體拘禁關押虐待的61個被害者請問院長你覺得他們會打幾分絕對是非常不好的分數"},{"start":9799.09,"end":9821.822,"text":"那我問你好如果是問其中那三位被虐待死亡的38歲的黃姓男子拘禁12天因為被毆打凝月受不了跳樓身亡45歲黃姓婦人被毆打凝月因為肝硬化腹腔積水腫脹發炎出血24天休克死亡"},{"start":9822.591,"end":9849.118,"text":"死亡前還跟他同樣被拘禁的受虐人跟他講說拜託你出去跟我的兒子講媽媽對不起你媽媽沒有辦法陪你到最後了患慢性病的57歲零性男子被拘禁虐待腿部受傷延誤治療腿部潰爛非常痛哀嚎結果被未讀噤聲最後心肌梗塞死亡"},{"start":9851.814,"end":9880.11,"text":"詐團殘暴到令人髮指你認同吧我們都非常痛恨這樣的行為我們也覺得應該有大的利益到能夠來阻止重複發生繼續來打擊這個犯罪那你覺得對這些被活活虐死的黃姓男子 黃姓婦人 林姓男子他們會對政府打詐打幾分我告訴你啦0分 答對了0分啦0分啦"},{"start":9881.673,"end":9905.732,"text":"那我再問你喔 上個月喔我用一句話 就是這些個案我都承認 都是事實但討論的時候 我們還是要給很多夥伴們我從來不會否認 也否定我們今天打炸前線的我們的同仁的努力但我要提醒你是 莫忘世上苦人多甚至莫忘世上冤魂多"},{"start":9907.535,"end":9921.227,"text":"上個月台中市風源被發現一家五口沉屍屋內屋主妻子大女兒二女兒小兒子全部倒臥房內死亡多日你知道他是怎麼死亡的嗎"},{"start":9924.503,"end":9948.457,"text":"這新聞很大喔我想部長知道吧這件事那個台中地刑偵辦中那個主嫌也受壓偵辦善盡家財 搗欠五百萬因為遇到投資詐騙 舉家被活活逼死那又請問他們要打幾分呢積蓄權沒了 因為陷投資詐騙損失兩百五十萬 汐止老夫婦輕生"},{"start":9951.087,"end":9978.782,"text":"台北市內湖區一對母女被騙一千兩百萬在家輕生情侶慘遭被騙走七百多萬雙雙輕生基隆曲姓女子被騙走畢生積蓄五百五十一萬輕生死亡院長還需要我繼續說下去嗎我知道案件確實很多那這個表格我只強調一點因為2024年我們統計數字改變所以會增加很多案件"},{"start":9979.724,"end":10001.996,"text":"我告訴你這個是事實因為你就知道我通常會突襲你這個事實我只要提醒說因為統計的方式改變我現在還在講案件數字我再告訴你我也聽到前面你的答詢的回答你有什麼話要對這些受害者家屬說受害者說他們在天之靈說"},{"start":10004.277,"end":10025.207,"text":"請問他們要打幾分我們當然非常不捨但我們覺得政府應該更有所作為全球犯罪行為在台灣我們不能置外於全球這個犯罪行為之外院長 我告訴你零分 零分 零分好了 剛剛院長跟我講不能只看個案所以我數字拿給你看這數字我不一一念"},{"start":10026.872,"end":10048.415,"text":"如果按照這個內政部警政署的打詐儀表版我只能用觸目驚心來形容當然我也聽到剛剛部長的解釋統計方法不同統計方法不同但是數字總是正確 總是真的吧不是假消息吧數字是正確那我告訴你我也聽到剛剛部長跟院長你們回答的數字"},{"start":10050.384,"end":10078.433,"text":"很抱歉 我也不客氣的說讓人民來看看他相信是法務部的數字還是警政署打詐以表擺的數字哪個數字更接近我剛剛前面講的這一群因為政府打詐沒有做到好結果被詐騙集團詐騙到走投無路 舉家輕生你問問他們他們相信這個數字還是相信法務部你的數字"},{"start":10080.27,"end":10107.085,"text":"人民的感受是什麼而且重點 這打造儀標板你們有講說下半年統計對不對 去年 是嗎所以回溯以前的東西 是不是不是回溯 它是用計算方式本來是以犯罪者 炸船來算它算一個案件現在是以受害者來算可能有十個 可能有三十個案件無論如何 我告訴院長跟部長"},{"start":10109.796,"end":10137.968,"text":"當然 賴總統上任才一年多了其實說真的 這打仗問題我們已經關心很久了民進黨是執政九年了 九年了要嘛今天賴清德總統沒做好要嘛蔡英文總統沒做好但不管哪個總統沒做好都是民進黨政府沒做好這一點我希望能夠記在心上那我要問一下我們政府真的百分之百用心在打擊詐騙嗎"},{"start":10140.219,"end":10161.759,"text":"我們很積極在做這個事情我告訴你 也許你很積極但有一個人跟委員報告你要不要讓我講事實上我們是全方位的在做一個處理在一個 全面的在打砸我跟你在時髮法治委會譬如說台北地檢署最近不是有一件那個斬金專案我的質詢時間有效不是刻意要打斷我沒有否定"},{"start":10162.159,"end":10189.414,"text":"我沒有否定今天第一線人員的努力啊我剛剛有否定嗎我沒有否定啊讓我問問題好不好可以嗎 讓我問問題我沒有否定 你不用急著defend啊真的不用急 我也沒有否定辦案人員的辛勞我們都知道 我也肯定啊我要問的只有一個人不是你 也不是卓院長我要問的是賴清德總統"},{"start":10192.277,"end":10210.829,"text":"當這些枉死的人期待政府交出詐騙成績單過去一年多賴總統忙什麼你告訴我忙三件事情大罷免大罷免大罷免我跟你講院長聽我講完你再評論"},{"start":10213.186,"end":10231.817,"text":"如果他用大罷免十分之一的心思好好打仗也許往死的幽魂可以少一些我要謝謝台灣人民用25比0敲醒執政者敲醒賴總統謝謝他們 院長你跟總統都要謝謝台灣人民"},{"start":10235.778,"end":10249.373,"text":"為什麼是25比0 你知道嗎我走在路上 每天站在路上早上五點多出門 晚上十一二點回家民眾心心念念 盼望的是政府好好打仗不要搞大鬥爭"},{"start":10252.779,"end":10275.234,"text":"25比0就是提醒我們的政府把所有的心思百分之百的心思放來好好打仗放來做關稅的應變放來去治理國政啦委員會只要一句話去年520之前總統只告訴我強化治安發展經濟是兩項最重要的工作他沒有做其他的交代說到心沒到"},{"start":10277.735,"end":10298.451,"text":"心不在焉我不敢講說百分之百不在焉但他的心起碼被框了百分之九十在大罷免上並沒有這樣子的你說沒有讓民眾判斷沒有關係因為我這個是不可能跟你達成共識我知道我為什麼在質詢要講馬總統防治酒駕的故事"},{"start":10300.695,"end":10329.956,"text":"當酒駕肇事歷史新高的包袱交到馬總統手上的時候他是用什麼心思在降酒駕肇事啊八年任內降幅60%每個月每個月每個月的丁我拜託 我真的拜託院長也許總統做不到 拜託你做到這本來是一件不可能完成的任務 你知道嗎但是一個有心的總統就可以做到"},{"start":10331.035,"end":10341.984,"text":"那我告訴你 我也不客氣的說今天 民進黨九年打詐不利還創造另外一個慘不忍睹的成績單你知道是什麼嗎秀出來沒啊 有啊 告訴你衛福部六月公布2024年國人十大死因"},{"start":10356.434,"end":10385.309,"text":"蓄意自我傷害也就是自殺在14年後重回十大死因排名第十專家說跟詐騙有關因為很多人人生無望選擇輕生那我告訴你這個自殺防治我要再講一個把總統莫忘世上苦人多親自讀導的故事台灣自殺人數在民國"},{"start":10387.642,"end":10415.028,"text":"在2006年陳水扁執政的時候是達到高峰的4406人歷史新高也一直在國人十大死因當中馬總統上任後積極推動自殺防治工作在他的任內有效降低死亡人數2010年自殺終於退出國人十大死因我在當總統府副秘書長那一年比2006年少了700人"},{"start":10417.918,"end":10446.31,"text":"我要講的事情其實一個很簡單的事情總統的用心院長的用心部長的用心你們多一份用心就少一個家庭破碎你們多一個用心就少一個詐騙去傷害無辜的老百姓"},{"start":10448.288,"end":10472.233,"text":"至少一件事我相信院長你一定可以跟我達成共識啦現在詐騙真的是國恥沒錯吧是不是啊這也是全球性的犯罪沒錯啊我們台灣真的是國際也很多在講台灣的詐欺啊不只台灣全球性都有這樣的共識院長拜託放在心上謝謝你我們要努力我們會努力謝謝委員好謝謝羅志強委員的質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝"},{"start":10486.445,"end":10512.259,"text":"我們接下來請劉書斌委員質詢之後我們會休息十分鐘休息完畢以後請王逸川委員請準備現在請劉書斌委員請質詢主席好 請左院長麻煩再請左院長備詢"},{"start":10522.828,"end":10545.196,"text":"劉委員好 院長好本席今天就行政院的打詐政策跟民進黨政府的誠信問題還造成的財損的部分來請教於您再我們看一下民進黨在109年的時候就宣告了打詐元年您去年就任就已經通過了打詐的新的四法"},{"start":10545.896,"end":10563.407,"text":"那也後來有2.0的版本也出現了但是我們可以看到到上個月的財損還是到85.4億那麼下一頁我們可以看到的是這個每天都還超過了2億的這樣的一個財損那這個是最重要的在本黨的一個"},{"start":10566.018,"end":10588.952,"text":"診斷當中發現到最重要的成效有限是因為民眾對政府的誠信充滿了不信任施政就有過度的包裝跟話術的問題我們現在就繼續往下看行政院你自己本身的打炸架構當中有了市炸 堵炸 防炸 阻炸跟懲炸的部分當然最重要的是市炸請問您"},{"start":10590.433,"end":10595.182,"text":"院長這四五個步驟裡面哪一個是最重要的是不是市長"},{"start":10596.107,"end":10624.254,"text":"每一個環節都重要有源頭到下游全部都重要有市詐就會降低案件的發生好 我覺得是從第一步來講沒錯 第一步你說的市詐非常重要所以我們就必須要了解市詐的重點是什麼包括你的打詐成果包括你常常說要強調源頭管理那我們現在看到市詐竟然是預防於先我看到基本內容當中詐騙本身有幾個部分第一個部分就是"},{"start":10625.014,"end":10647.408,"text":"誇大的謊言製造第二個部分是設計騙局第三個是導致財損這是非常重要的情況我們就繼續來看就用這樣的架構我們就來看看民進黨本身你卓院長的這個政策幫他們看到好多項包括的是在看到的是在財化法當中造成的非常多的一個民怨還包括在"},{"start":10648.268,"end":10666.679,"text":"重視到光電但是卻造成台南的這個光電爐炸案這郭蔡清的這個非法的掩埋等等還有包括21的這個非法獲利那我們再往下一頁看到的是特別是在現在進入到非核家園強調的達成了但是20%的要再生能源"},{"start":10667.579,"end":10690.679,"text":"那又看到的是但是實際上在現在19 16%的再生能源部分還造成了很多的影響企業的配電我們再往下看看到的是在這次的颱風當中有出現到了這麼多的光電 海溫 新溫光電廠當中12天之內都還沒有再清洗我們繼續再往下看的時候他都已經清理完畢在集中在一個站置場上"},{"start":10691.964,"end":10713.75,"text":"對但是還是沒有處理完備好這部分我們繼續往下看這一部分民進黨的話術這邊就呈現到在2024 2025我們再看看這次的颱風當中呢也強調說風光發電瞬間的這個風速呢是非常高到15.2%等等的但事實上這些的剛才說那兩個在台南跟嘉義的光電呢通通都是屬於"},{"start":10714.99,"end":10722.357,"text":"在心理的部分包括之前用實驗性的都要花到3到5億這部分然後還要造成的環境的汙染"},{"start":10723.513,"end":10751.977,"text":"大家可以看到的是剛才所說的部分可以看到是一個誇大的說很好很好光電很好這真的有它的好處但是被誇大了看到這部分造成了災損的部分我們看往下的這部分好那繼續再想到在再生能源的部分行政院長主任院長你在當初有呈到說在2024的時候2024的時候這個新聞當中你說的再生能源的這個成本一定會降下來那"},{"start":10752.677,"end":10770.912,"text":"這一部分我們可以看到是根本就經不起在風災上面的檢驗根本還沒有準備好那測試當中呢還沒有準備好發電都已經有虧損的這個情況出現了報告委員風災檢驗不堪一級這句話實驗性質的設備吧可能要調整一下"},{"start":10775.441,"end":10793.195,"text":"不需要我現在就說事實上我們看到就是我剛剛特別是指剛剛那兩個那兩個的養魚重電的場合所以沒有問題好那我們繼續往下看以現在台電我們看到的發電成本的數據來看在最近的台電的網站當中所呈現的這個數據當中呢平均的"},{"start":10794.756,"end":10821.387,"text":"發電購電成本是3.19但是再生能源還是到5.6我覺得是特別是針對到外部的購電的成本這些部分好那我們知道的是請問卓院長一個問題再生能源的成本是需要考量的沒有錯可是重要我們知道核電的成本這部分你看到的是請問您知道核電是唯一的後端處理基金都已經計入電價的能源嗎CPT請出現核核端的基金有累積相當"},{"start":10823.12,"end":10840.428,"text":"有放進去嘛 對不對所以他現在的價格已經是像剛才那張圖上呈現出來的是不是才一點多塊錢而且他已經加入到了這個計價當中把唯一後端的處理基金放進去除了處理之外他呈現的安全上的考量"},{"start":10840.808,"end":10865.594,"text":"是我們要優先考量所以我們是說有核安有核廢的處理還有全民的高度共識是我們對現在傳統能源的看法以及我們對新式能源願意來接觸的一個態度沒有錯你這樣講再把你的政策宣示一下是好事情但是我們現在繼續看到但是在目前的部分我們看到的是剛才就出現到在撥補台電1000億的招商的情況之下"},{"start":10866.414,"end":10895.954,"text":"院長你自己說的調整電價呢恐釀成呢就是刪了1000億之後呢就會調整電價 會釀成物價的上漲但是這民眾看起來就是怎麼樣就是您在恐嚇民眾這一部分因為在野黨的部分沒有刪就是把它刪除掉了再說你們刪除了不去做撥補了之後那會有漲漲電價還會有造成物價上漲其實就像剛才我說的整個詐騙的過程當中就是"},{"start":10896.874,"end":10923.88,"text":"就是一個誇大的一個說法之後然後事實上面不是造成這樣最後造成的災損當然我們很清楚的知道我們今天我用這個方式教訓大家講的是卓榮泰政府所做的事為是一個當然是一個政府但是他最重要的是他所做的行為其實跟詐騙集團的思想法是很相近的 我覺得剛剛那句話的邏輯應該是很簡單一般人都會懂因為他就是一個邏輯"},{"start":10925.117,"end":10940.568,"text":"我們敢讓台電的財務狀況比較健全我在電價審議委員會裡面的討論他就會認為台電可以抑制那如果不是的話電價委員會有他的考量我現在讓你看看下一頁的地方我們看到到2019年2019年"},{"start":10943.971,"end":10968.765,"text":"109年2020年的時候蔡總統在說了2050、2025年的時候再生能源可以創造1兆的投資額1.2兆的產值跟2萬個工作機會他把台灣打造成亞洲的綠能發展中心那這個地方是他2020年說的那我們繼續往下看我們現在風電的增加量"},{"start":10970.318,"end":10994.296,"text":"經濟不統治 我們風電的增加量那個時候到現在是世界第一位但我們不是以此自滿我們要做更多安全的能源分布就算是這樣子也只要部分可是其他的工作機會產值這些部分通通也只講再生能力 現在只講到風電再生能力有非常多種所以我們去想想就是你是誇大不實的這部分就跟詐騙其他所做的很相近第二部分我們在看到的是"},{"start":10995.217,"end":11021.517,"text":"上個月在本席在佛科會的這個質詢當中呈現到說要他呈現做科學園區的用水用電包括是再生能源是不是能夠供應到台灣的科學園區的需求結果拿到三頁的這樣的內容事實上就看出來的是對於再生能源的供應他沒有說得清楚更重要的是在下一個部分看到的是在科學園區的部分我們看到這張圖是非常重要的"},{"start":11022.378,"end":11035.778,"text":"可以看到在生能源發展這邊呈現出來的是支持資料在2025年的時候是330億度左右這部分我們可以看到是台積電它本身在台灣就要用到250億度電"},{"start":11038.771,"end":11066.078,"text":"350億度電但是如果在科學園區的話呢他事實上要更多了而且目前只能到達25%的部分如果到2030年的話再生能源是400億度台積電就450度本身就不能供給到台積電的需求這地方就呈現了再生能源不足董院長你知道再生能源不足對廠商會發生什麼樣尤其是我們是外銷導向的所以我們要增加開發更多的再生能源"},{"start":11067.128,"end":11080.606,"text":"是沒錯但是我跟你講現在謝謝院長但是我們繼續往下看同樣的可能又是在騙局的一個製造了我們看看這張圖當中呈現出來的我看為了事實上面呈現出來是說"},{"start":11082.328,"end":11101.982,"text":"現在的電網部分你再生能源不生產出來但是你要把輸電輸到廠商那邊去啊可是在柏科威的網站當中呈現出來的是所有的網路的潰線的部分呢再生能源網站呢再生能源的電網最多到203年2032年之後才能達成7年之後所以現在再生能源是"},{"start":11103.223,"end":11106.826,"text":"所以我們要求拜託給台電多一點支持就是讓他增加電網的韌性時間暫停"},{"start":11126.005,"end":11140.286,"text":"委員 容許我提醒一下我們今天根據職權新司法第17條邀請行政院率委員來報告題目是打詐策略那個 院長我們有考慮過這個問題我說明一下因為本身"},{"start":11141.727,"end":11169.406,"text":"行政院就是一個非常重要的一個能夠讓人家信任而且能夠說你在政策部分所以這部分如果本身卓院長行政院的部分他本身就是一個製造謊言製造誇大言詞甚至還造成人民財損他本身不是最大的一個最大中心嗎我想就尊重容我提醒你如果說你針對能源問題我們立法院大家形成共識再請卓院長來報告能源問題"},{"start":11170.367,"end":11178.634,"text":"我覺得這樣子比較民俘相識好我可以很快嗎能源我覺得這個民俘不是我們很多過去"},{"start":11179.11,"end":11204.632,"text":"有可能雞飛塵世我特別提醒你我希望你還是能夠回到我們請卓院長來的今天主題打炸七列策略好不好謝謝請繼續謝謝韓院長才是好那是我尊重那個院長的這樣的但是我這邊部分有一個很快的就會帶過去好不好那這地方我們看到是剛才再生能源的部分有包括的是有再生能源但是我們看到的是再生能源因為往"},{"start":11205.453,"end":11224.35,"text":"往潰線的部分的一個差異性所以他沒辦法供給那最重要是剛才的部分大家知道再生能源當中中午的9點到下午的2點當中就是非常多的一個潰線的非常多的再生能源沉澱出來但是這部分台電就是要付費給到發電業者去了"},{"start":11227.172,"end":11246.204,"text":"那其他部分在晚上的跟凌晨的時候呢就是會補上的這邊有火力去就是造成的台電虧損最重要的原因那我再必須從企業部分去講的是在於企業部分看到他還是要要複合他國外去做出口的時候他必須要有再生能源憑證那我們繼續往下看可是再生能源憑證他必須要"},{"start":11247.185,"end":11258.324,"text":"能夠這個電力呢是能夠真正有用的目前台灣的再生能源的憑證當中因為匯線真的沒辦法到達所以他只能在台灣用但是最像台積電其他的"},{"start":11260.007,"end":11283.6,"text":"廠商他輸出國外的有外銷的部分他就沒辦法達到國際間的再生能源憑證那就會出現到非常大的問題就是說台灣現在的再生能源的環境並沒有去撐他的對他的在國際間的出口是有幫助的他沒辦法達到廠商的需求這部分更重要的還有一個部分再生能源剛才已經說了是"},{"start":11284.7,"end":11312.577,"text":"屬於一般的我們它的再生能源可是現在就最重要的在於說再生能源如果到二再生能源它的量的話其實越受制於地形當地環境的差異性更重要的現在是要有所謂的非碳的全時的24小時7天能夠用的這樣子的一個能源在它才能夠應用國際間的這個需求但是這部分也是由聯合國跟國際能源總署跟產業客戶所達成的這樣一個部分我們繼續再往下看"},{"start":11313.377,"end":11332.777,"text":"在這個情況下之前的國科會也提到了在廠商的外移這邊我們看到台積電的外移是非常重要的台積電的外移我們發現雖然涉及到關稅的問題可是更重要的是台積電沒說的事實大家往下看到這個部分在全球的分佈當中台積電要去"},{"start":11334.397,"end":11355.872,"text":"德國了德國他德國完整的跟他講可以的我們可以百分之百的供應到再生能源但日本的部分呢在熊本那但是他是用九州的這個整個電網裡面供應他也是再生能源也是沒有問題的然後在亞利桑那當中呢這個整個州這部分核能"},{"start":11357.057,"end":11376.488,"text":"因為供給他在基載電力之後他的再生能源也是可以的那最重要的是要跟大家講的是當芬蘭呢這個是大家知道北歐是非常重要的一個重視環保的國家他現在更是全世界第二大的這個核電生產國那降低75%的一個建價成本這部分也是供參考"},{"start":11377.368,"end":11396.741,"text":"當然這部分我們的銀長佐的現在代表已經到芬蘭去了這部分可是他在那邊如果有機會跟全民的這個共樂的時候可以講到說這部分他在一個核電這麼高的地方事實上是要去了解到的那最重要講到這邊的部分是要跟大家跟院長你要做一個資訊"},{"start":11398.422,"end":11425.9,"text":"因為行政院民進黨的政府當中就是為了政策選票在誇大不實的然後找出錯誤的一個政策出現導致了國家的財損還會繼續台電的擴大企業就不斷出走包括剛才說的台積電是一個非常典型的例子因為剛才所說的台灣並沒有辦法提供足夠的再生能源如果又沒有所謂的非碳的電力而且24小時7天的去站狀是不行的"},{"start":11426.46,"end":11446.392,"text":"所以在剛才的這部分詐騙的一個行為當中就是誇大不實事實上是相反然後還包括是後面這部分那當然就說人民就會覺得您就是民進黨政府可能就是一個非常大的詐騙期也就是因為這樣的情況之下他沒有辦法去得到信念包括剛才的"},{"start":11448.405,"end":11473.81,"text":"羅志強我也說了當你的心思沒有完全在你的政策的上面大大增這個效果那我們繼續看到的是目前台灣最大的民怨是什麼是對等關稅 能源問題跟詐騙跟詐騙的問題那因為缺乏政府人民缺乏對政府的信任只想優點的這個謊言而且忽視財產這個事實那老實講就是一個詐騙這種情形那這個地方怎麼去改變呢"},{"start":11474.93,"end":11503.693,"text":"打仗最重要在這裡就是希望是說包括的是希望在這邊我們繼續往下看的是希望能夠誠實的來去處理對不起委員你剛剛的這一席講話不僅違反院長的才勢也完全沒有邏輯我實在沒有辦法理解好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了 劉書斌委員 謝謝好 謝謝你的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關首長的備詢 謝謝好 辛苦你 謝謝"},{"start":11510.1,"end":11517.007,"text":"抱怨会我们现在休息十分钟十分钟之后我们请王逸川委员准备咨询现在休息"},{"start":12132.633,"end":12149.159,"text":"現在我們繼續開會接下來請王逸川委員質詢 侯孟楷委員請準備謝謝院長 我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":12159.981,"end":12188.644,"text":"黃委員好好 卓院長好剛剛這個聽了很多委員的質詢相關的訊息統計資料當然跟包括法務部部長大家對這些統計資料的調查的方式時間點你們有一些要做說明但是我是覺得這樣這些統計的數字包括這些曲線的上上下下在人民的角度"},{"start":12189.841,"end":12217.558,"text":"我覺得有感報告裡面有講過一萬件、兩萬件、幾百件這個數字對任何一個個人他用詐騙的那個人看到這個數字有感第二個呢這個打詐的這個儀表板這個在很多公共政策在跟人民宣傳的時候都有這個儀表板"},{"start":12219.672,"end":12246.901,"text":"這儀表板 我也常常接到朋友說你這蟲蟲 詐騙這麼多 用這麼久還有一個辦公室 也是在詐騙我們說 沒有啊 這詐騙有在改進 有在進步你看那個數字怎麼樣 可是這有時候人民聽不下去我覺得這個困境要想辦法突破這個困境要想辦法突破 譬如說剛才有人說到酒駕"},{"start":12248.322,"end":12277.268,"text":"你問酒駕現在量有減可是也有酒駕也有酒駕致死啦所以我跟這個院長交流一個概念跟院長報告的時候你說我們現在這個詐騙有五大類型這樣聽起來很危險的是說我們知道有這五大類型你們按照AI去分析包括卡丁他講的這個內容第六個正在行程中"},{"start":12278.855,"end":12303.702,"text":"我們花很多時間在處理這五個可是對詐騙集團的人來說你這五個我都知道你中華民國政府知道這五個我當然不會再用這五個我會形成第六個 形成第七個所以這一塊我是請卓院長跟打詐辦公室或相關的同仁"},{"start":12304.707,"end":12312.387,"text":"這一部分可能要再精進就是說正在形成中的詐騙型態要提早啊"},{"start":12313.021,"end":12342.316,"text":"能夠因應委員所說的是我剛剛說的假投資假交友假網購假買家騙賣家還有假檢警這五大這五大只是他受理案件60%都是這五大財損90%都是這五大其他當然還有很多各種型態都有那在達渣儀表板上面就會有很辛苦把他內容都把他太陽化出來我們不會放掉其他小的我以為說20年前"},{"start":12343.432,"end":12361.37,"text":"可能沒有什麼詐騙的事情以前可能有什麼金光檔這種的 我們了解金光檔現在這十年 假設我這個詐騙這件事這個技術 方法一直變數位平台的發展它一直變 它一直變的時候要醞釀一兩年 吃一兩天就變了"},{"start":12363.468,"end":12382.886,"text":"啊 原來這種的也是詐騙就被我們的政府啊收錄到詐騙的形態然後我們就開始去研究怎麼樣防止然後怎麼告訴大家說這種的叫做詐騙我的意思是說 想這個東西我們要做在前面好 那我"},{"start":12383.652,"end":12411.132,"text":"用方法論來想這件事情如果要想在前面是不是世界各國啊世界各國也有很多詐騙的嘛那世界各國有沒有正在形成中的這種詐騙型態台灣現在沒有可是我們總是有專業的人員啊全世界你們有在交流 交流之後想說這次有可能是台灣的發生提早把這件事說出來"},{"start":12412.751,"end":12422.337,"text":"你提早把這個事情提早防範在前面不然我覺得我們的政府現在都在做已經發生的事情然後我們在"},{"start":12423.069,"end":12450.68,"text":"在處理啦我們還有一個就是預警中斷他的詐騙所以我們剛剛我報告中有提到一個尋找這個潛在的被害人而且我們已經通報了兩萬五千件就是把你可能受騙的人還不是很大眾化的一個行為但是我們認為你這個身份特殊或是你的環境特殊等等還有你可能現在在某一種平台上面你有一些接觸把他找出來提醒他不要涉入到這個詐騙那專長我請問你"},{"start":12452.555,"end":12481.613,"text":"潛在被害人你可以跟大家講有哪些類型因為這個潛在被害人通報有兩萬五千件還要從裡面再去分析我現在就是要提醒卓院長文化民國政府如果給社會說潛在被害人是這幾類詐騙集團就聽到了詐騙集團就聽到了嘛因為你說詐騙集團就聽到了你網路上說人就看到說這些人被注意到了喔我就轉個方向啊"},{"start":12483.115,"end":12508.495,"text":"至少我們保護了兩萬五千人的安全所以我是說為什麼會為什麼就是說我們在這件事情上民眾也會繼續用詐騙當然很多官第一官有跟他們一攤有時候是一個陷阱什麼一大堆有的沒的這一塊我覺得要用比較好的跟世界交流一下看人們新型態的詐騙不要再讓他進來台灣這個大家互相勉勵好第二個"},{"start":12515.921,"end":12538.204,"text":"最近有人在分析這個台灣在這個跟詐騙有關的三件事情一個叫人力輸出人力輸出就是說他去外國去做詐騙不管他去了騙台灣人 騙中國人 騙什麼人人力輸出第二種叫做金錢轉運第三種叫做幫派轉型"},{"start":12542.554,"end":12566.84,"text":"因為他還要偷錢 要靠幫派嘛好 中間的金錢的轉運啊 就是洗錢啊這件事情我們到底要怎麼處理 我要跟院長講一個實際的案例啊有位朋友啊 朋友就他送他家人去洗錢 現在被抓起來了他就整個人問他們的家人說 你們怎麼做這些什麼詐騙的 這樣對不對騙了很多人 害了很多人 這樣對不對"},{"start":12572.711,"end":12591.801,"text":"家人回答說 沒有啦 他是在洗錢 他不是在詐騙然後整場的人 他說那不一樣 洗錢跟詐騙不一樣所以你家人沒有在做詐騙 沒有 我家人是在做洗錢聽起來洗錢比較高級詐騙聽起來比較好"},{"start":12597.301,"end":12607.899,"text":"我為什麼提這件事情就是說他詐騙來的錢總是要把他洗乾淨洗錢的這件事情是台灣到底我們政府是怎麼處理"},{"start":12610.765,"end":12636.601,"text":"你總是要在這裡擠假設有一個人他去用詐騙10萬塊飛過去或是進某一個戶頭那個戶頭也是中華民國的戶頭嘛這擠了再去用洗出來不管叫車手去捏出來還是網路轉轉的轉出去防不勝防他擠又洗洗洗洗洗洗洗洗洗了 清了清了以後可能這擠回來以後我就買豪宅買豪車什麼一大堆嘛"},{"start":12637.21,"end":12663.042,"text":"洗錢這件事情 昨天跟大家講一下我們現在在處理洗錢是怎麼用洗錢怎麼防治然後我們現在到底做了什麼樣的努力因為洗錢會是詐騙過程中蠻重要的一環洗錢這條路可以動的可能詐騙的錢在這一關也許可以擋住蠻多的所以打詐釋法當中就有一個就是洗錢防治法"},{"start":12663.897,"end":12686.432,"text":"目前的措施 請部長來說跟委員報告 最主要那個洗錢委員剛才提到那個案例說我們怕你洗錢的那就是提供人頭帳戶都用洗錢防治法來起訴的因為它那個洗錢防治法是21條跟22條一個是收集這些人人頭帳戶 人頭的帳號另外22條就是賣就是提供的這種人頭帳戶"},{"start":12691.391,"end":12707.97,"text":"所以如果說這一種提供人頭帳戶帳號的這一種的行為的話就是適用洗錢房治法22條來處罰你說的這些都很小條的啦我給你提供一個郵局的樸案郵局的樸案我交出去如果說我交出去你讓我殺青錢就由你去寫嘛"},{"start":12713.875,"end":12734.511,"text":"這個應該很快 他就發言說這個虎頭納奇怪五年沒進出香港 現在十萬又出去五萬這個我覺得現有的金融體系這個事情我判斷應該有守住啦而且現在因為很多人沒有去整台了出去下去 去業績的洗來洗去"},{"start":12735.37,"end":12758.919,"text":"所以我們有第一線很努力我們的金融機構的人員我們常常看電視說什麼阿伯去到那裡 阿姨去到那裡跟他們說你不一定是在詐騙的那個我們都有看到但是其實應該是蠻多人已經不得不接觸的人他就在網路手機按一按電腦按一按錢就出去後來他才驚覺他跟我們朋友說的時候才驚覺說那就是詐騙啊我覺得這個事情是人民現在人民不是說"},{"start":12764.588,"end":12791.984,"text":"這政府總是要想一個辦法不然那個董事人啦可能董事給他騙或是為了貪啦什麼賭注十萬一百年一萬回來啦何況到時候沒有啦我抱怨抱怨啦 說現在還賺二十萬喔限期三天啊 如果沒有齁這機會就沒了這種我們都聽很多但是這種金額數字不大可是現在很多人是他是透過網路的錢就出去了他也還救不回來這樣"},{"start":12793.257,"end":12811.092,"text":"報告委員這個是可疑帳戶請主委說明我知道他在一定的時間內重複的使用固定的金額或是在不同的地區短時間內不同地區一直的使用我們都有列入這個可疑帳戶詳細再請主委說明報告委員就是有關帳戶的管理"},{"start":12813.365,"end":12840.714,"text":"如果現在確實有被害人就是現在給我警示帳戶就會全面凍結那再來就是如果可疑帳戶的話他們透過通報的話他會就採取必要性因為他還沒有犯罪行為但他會去做一些管制那如果他覺得可疑他會通報警察他可以把這個事情把這個帳戶做為一個警示主委你剛剛講前面有一個叫被害人對 要有被害人去報案問題就自己家嘛"},{"start":12841.954,"end":12861.398,"text":"他就被害了,他就一直在那邊擁擠人民的問題一件事啦,就是說奇怪咧,我們家的四大人他平常是叫郵局來供來,不然供來五萬、十萬的,每天清涼嘛,三清、兩清涼他現在要給他當五萬、十萬,你們郵局也給他當去你們郵局也給他當去,這歐里桑、歐巴桑,娘子也都去郵局了,怎麼還給他當去"},{"start":12871.284,"end":12893.545,"text":"跟委員報告一下報案報案我幫你處理有關這部分就陳總剛才委員講我們正在做一些現在不方便在這邊說那我可以再跟委員做私底下的報告這個確實有有些銀行已經跟法務部在合作做這些事情但是我是說這個細節的部分我們已經在進行中很好我今天就是要聽這句"},{"start":12895.063,"end":12905.916,"text":"因為我感覺聽卓院長的報告 裡面有些人想繼續謎語這對詐騙集團來說這叫保點你對美國政府說 我就知道了詐騙集團 他可以做詐騙集團 他的頭腦叫我們沒什麼工"},{"start":12913.919,"end":12936.991,"text":"如果我們主委告訴我們有些事情是已經在做那已經在做沒說出來防範在前面當詐騙集團決定要往那條路走的時候發現被我們堵住了其實包括委員我們是全方位做很多事情但我們不會對外說明這個很好最後我還是建議卓院長跟我們的團隊"},{"start":12938.855,"end":12965.476,"text":"這些統計的金額、數量、統計的圖表不要再糾結在這些事情這是一段時間我們對於工作人員的一個檢查的報告我剛剛有說過這個數字不代表任何的成果就是說這些數字上上下下可能有一個突發事件就忽然間就跳起來"},{"start":12966.087,"end":12970.013,"text":"有些我們很努力就降下去可是不代表說這個"},{"start":12971.738,"end":12996.4,"text":"但是我們必須對這些內部做一些考核要用這個來做考核但對外絕不承認它是一個什麼樣的程度對 就是說 院長不要糾結說價值 因為價值委員會問嘛問說你怕幾分啊 什麼到底有在做嗎 有進步嗎 有改善嗎這些數字啊 內部參考啊就也不用特別去說 哎喲 我們這詐騙金額已經成功"},{"start":13001.447,"end":13017.018,"text":"已經多少金額 減少多少人被害這些事情對被詐騙的人跟被詐騙的家庭來說這些數字對他沒有意義對他有意義的是兩件事"},{"start":13022.83,"end":13047.923,"text":"但是他沒有希望叫他同樣的人再去做PAN所以他會問政府說所以我的案子就在這裡醫療敢不可以再去做PAN政府到底做什麼事情剛才我們彭主委說的這些事情現在正在做這個就是努力去做把這個事情做好真的不要再計較這個圖表上的那些數字"},{"start":13048.463,"end":13061.722,"text":"跟KPI 以免啊搞到最後大家都在做這些表面功夫啦這件事情 把這個院長提醒一下好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王一川委員執行謝謝卓院長 三關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":13073.356,"end":13099.521,"text":"好 接下來我們請侯孟凱委員質詢鍾嘉斌委員請準備主席謝謝麻煩請莊特院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":13110.015,"end":13125.968,"text":"院長好院長上任一年多以來國人一直希望是政府是做實事做真事做對的事打擊詐騙是沒有任何一個人可以接受的我剛聽到好幾位委員跟您這邊質詢以及救教之後發覺"},{"start":13127.298,"end":13156.321,"text":"你也開始改口願意稱說我們的這些數字其實是沒有太大的一個意義我在報告裡面就講過了因為每一個數字即便你講是說從去年到今年有減少但是對於被害者來講每一個案件就是百分之百的詐騙每一個案件就是沒有辦法拿回來而更重要是態度問題本席第一線長期跟我們所有的警務同仁以及相關人員在一起"},{"start":13156.781,"end":13182.857,"text":"本席非常肯定我們地縣的員警同仁大家對於打擊詐騙的一個辛苦辛勞謝謝但是有沒有讓全國國人看到說現在的政府帶頭從上到下在拼打詐院長你自己怎麼看我們為什麼你有讓國人感受到說我們全國所有的部會首長大家都真真正正放心思在拼打擊詐騙嗎"},{"start":13184.673,"end":13212.374,"text":"外表太陽上來看我們對這些打詐的相關人員我們予以鼓勵 重視 感謝內部而言我們從政策上來強化法制面而言我們希望能夠有所不足的地方我們再透過更強大的修法院院長你沒有回答本席的問題所以我們從政策 組織 法律各法制各方面都在進行院長你還是沒有回答本席的問題是過去這幾個月國人普遍印象裡面認為說政府在幹嘛"},{"start":13214.775,"end":13239.12,"text":"行政院還是在做行政院在做行政院的事但是國人普遍印象裡面從不管是政論節目新聞媒體以及相關各部會下鄉去做宣講宣講是講國人認為說政府在做什麼宣講是跟預算相關的話題在行政院的範圍裡面我們跟國人來做說明說實在話 院長"},{"start":13240.592,"end":13258.233,"text":"本席在經歷過7月26號再一次的選舉我想我應該是很有資格在這邊講這個話從上到下其實全國國人可能都認為今年三分之二時間政府從上到下帶頭都在搞罷免沒有真真正正的在做其他"},{"start":13258.826,"end":13285.985,"text":"真的國人關心的我常說絕大部分的部委首長人民最希望看到的是拚經濟 拚民生 拚打詐但絕對不是拚政治絕大部分的部委首長都在努力自己的工作所以新聞畫面 你看一下七個人在七月因為詐騙而喪命權力大罷免的政府何時才能權力打詐當媒體用這樣的一個標語的時候其實我們是心痛的"},{"start":13286.653,"end":13295.346,"text":"我身為在野黨的委員我一樣非常心痛因為代表連媒體都認為是說現在這個政府完全沒有在針對民眾想要了解的問題來解決"},{"start":13296.718,"end":13318.763,"text":"我們每個月都有打砸的時機你看你又要回來講數字了剛剛王玉川委員才跟你哭口婆心講說不要再講數字你現在又要拿數字來救援是委員說我們都沒有在做我說我有在做做得不夠多不夠好非常好來 院長如果說你真的要講數字我們來講數字什麼樣的數字在你心目中你有沒有一個概念現在一天有多少國人被詐騙"},{"start":13321.725,"end":13340.194,"text":"去年到現在我們每天減少的案件大概有350件今天 昨天打在儀表板上面昨天統計有多少的詐騙案件今天昨天我是沒有看我們每天下降的數字從這個禮拜一到禮拜四今天禮拜五還沒有統計出來這個禮拜一到禮拜四有多少的金額被詐騙"},{"start":13341.53,"end":13363.945,"text":"我只能跟你說這一年以來我們每天統計下降的數字每天有350件如果說你真的說念茲在這的話其實我覺得說這些數字應該都會在你心目中每天想著怎麼樣來降低一點一滴而不是到目前為止還是只能拿這本報告來救援禮拜一到禮拜四本期剛看了一下總共有11億2000萬被詐騙"},{"start":13367.665,"end":13396.534,"text":"四天裡面就有十一億兩千萬被詐騙的金額算不算高因為我們一年現在每個現在降到七月份是有八十一億來院長這個比例上就你的報告我們來討論其實本期今天很希望是很持平的因為我們都是要一起面對詐騙打擊詐騙人人有責來我們來看一下數字本期也跟你就數字討論數字因為這很客觀跟科學來看一下"},{"start":13397.322,"end":13422.272,"text":"這是您的報告對不對詐騙案件你上面畫了一個紅線是逐年下降的概念逐月下降的概念對不對院長有沒有發現有一個盲點從今年的3月到現在的7月其實它沒有下降它其實是完全有一個持平的概念來我們上一張"},{"start":13424.966,"end":13450.658,"text":"上一張你看如果說從去年因為你一直強調說去年8月才開始有改變這個登記的方式所以說8月以前你們先不記好本席也同意來我們先看一下就說那8月到今年的7月快一年的時間每個月的數字可你真的看過去這5個月從3月到7月他是一個成水平等於是說15000件每個月有超過差不多15000件他沒有繼續往下"},{"start":13454.087,"end":13467.853,"text":"我們就講是說這類似選舉有所謂基本盤難道我們詐騙也有詐騙基本盤嗎國人一個月有一萬五千多件可能會被詐騙那過去這五個月發生了什麼問題委員我兩句話第一個對這個數字政府從來沒有滿意過"},{"start":13471.552,"end":13500.028,"text":"我也不滿意你也不滿意沒有錯但我要找的是問題啊他每個月都有每個月的因素比如你看院長我可不可以請教一下說這個問題在哪裡這五個月都有每個月有一萬五千件每個月我們都有分析過二月份特別低因為是過年期間我現在在問三月到七月七月份會比較高因為進入到暑假期間我現在在問三月到七月特別對青少年的事情沒有針對本學會有啊七月會比較高因為是暑假期間院長七月有比較高嗎對"},{"start":13502.213,"end":13524.058,"text":"七月沒有下降 七月有比六月高嗎七月沒有下降 因為它是暑假期間是嘛 所以院長本席現在在跟你討論的是說我們現在國內有一個所謂詐騙基本盤就是一個月有一萬五千件已經持續了五個月有沒有注意到這個數字不是 我們逐月在分析如果把它下降是 那我們剛剛有說過所以本席才會問是說在這五個月裡面沒有下降的問題點在哪裡"},{"start":13525.578,"end":13547.949,"text":"我們說有些案件它是遞延會發生六個月才會發生但這個是一直遞延下來我也覺得一直維持我首先要求的是不能往上升再來維持平衡之後就往下降我們再看下一個金額我們再看金額的數字院長本席希望能夠跟你好好就事論事就事情討論事情來看一下這個詐騙的金額"},{"start":13550.591,"end":13563.135,"text":"你的報告也是畫一條紅線往下代表是說這個逐年往下嘛 對不對逐月往下嘛 但實際上是這樣子嗎實際上是這個樣子嗎我們看一下過去這五個月我們看一下過去這五個月嘛來 你看一下過去這五個月"},{"start":13571.033,"end":13595.222,"text":"過去這五個月從二月你剛講的農曆因為第一農曆二月天數比較少第二農曆過年放假比較多所以二月比較低但從三月一直到七月它其實呈現一個逐步往上的數字二月不是天數比較少是大團在休息放連假嘛但是三月到七月是不是一個逐步往上"},{"start":13596.704,"end":13612.541,"text":"是 我的要求是不能往上升所以現在往上升了你的要求看起來是破功啦院長我現在再請教院長不然部長 除非你想創外否則的話我先請教院長來回答好不好院長院長"},{"start":13617.715,"end":13644.527,"text":"圖形有所不同但是我不爭執這個事情我現在都是拿你今天的報告來跟你救教我今天都拿你今天的報告我不是要美化數字數字是科學 數字是理性 數字是務實但重點是本身現在看到的數字就是有問題你不能拿數字之後然後你給我一個圖表畫一條橫線往下你就以為催眠國人說現在是往下不對啊每個月有八十幾億"},{"start":13646.352,"end":13669.97,"text":"五月八十五億 六月八十九億 七月八十六億八十幾億的詐騙金額在被詐騙 平均一天兩億到三億也是經過我們就是打造團隊的一個努力像一去年八月到十二月都是一半多月嘛那你現在就是不理性不科學的做法嗎但是我想這個都是一長期來看就是下降趨勢 就是我們打造有一些的"},{"start":13670.35,"end":13675.414,"text":"一些看到一個成果部長你還要跟我扯趨勢是不是你還要跟我扯趨勢嗎這個是什麼趨勢三歲小孩都看得懂趨勢你跟我扯趨勢"},{"start":13681.954,"end":13707.794,"text":"我們從去年比較上他是下降的那現在足月有高高低低我們不滿意我們在這裡的對話我們這裡的對話不要讓外界覺得說您不滿意我滿意絕對不是我們都不滿意大家都不滿意所以我們會努力往下降所以民眾的民怨才會那麼高所以民眾才會希望大家好好的做實事做真事做對的事情而不是浪費時間浪費精力在搞其他的政治來 部長"},{"start":13709.052,"end":13737.882,"text":"剛剛我也聽到黃珊珊委員有詢問到因為我們認為是說詐騙竟然每一個都是每一個都是一個血淋淋的案例但是我們也看到今年1月到6月這刑事警察局給本席的資料已經財損561億如果看這個趨勢下去很有可能今年會破千億院長有什麼方法可以處理"},{"start":13740.145,"end":13764.586,"text":"剛剛我在報告裡面都把基本上的方法講了那這些方法只會越來越精進該橫向聯繫 該跨境合作該加強它的懲詐的效果跟司法院的互相的來就法制面來強化等等我們都會做這個都已經在進行當中就法制面來處理法制面的問題我先請教喔因為剛剛黃珊珊委員有提到一個案例這是四天前的一個新聞"},{"start":13765.382,"end":13789.579,"text":"我要不要跟那個詐騙300萬被抓車手假釋還高調拍片說沒有想賠我們看一下內容因為剛剛聽起來是院長跟部長沒有看到這一個影片嘛對不對我剛剛已經請部長要把這個影片找出來到底這個人是誰是真是假來如何處理他說錢已經被他花光了法院只跟他強制扣了有7000多塊"},{"start":13790.714,"end":13817.333,"text":"但是他花光了300萬他本來不打算賠錢認為錢關出來之後可以繼續花但是因為爭取假釋所以說他才要去和解院長如果說到最後台灣變成是笑評不笑唱如果說台灣社會變成是這種詐騙集團車手可以這樣子高調用社群媒體平台還這樣子肆無忌憚的把他的犯罪過程跟犯罪狀況PO在網路上你可以允許可以認同嗎"},{"start":13819.416,"end":13838.461,"text":"所以我們現在才來講是說是不是能夠針對修法騙多少 欠多少 罰多少他騙了三百多萬結果到時候他只被強制扣押七千多塊可能是因為他三百多萬全部都已經花光了所以他名下沒有這些財產"},{"start":13840.094,"end":13863.874,"text":"我們一般的民間借款 借了多少錢可能你都要還多少錢欠款都要還款但沒想到詐騙局就可以騙多少錢不用還他應該騙的金額院長 有沒有修法空間我們要啟動修法 請部長說明這部分在委員關心就是詐偽條例43條裡面我們有就高額的一個詐欺那以現在的來講的話 500萬元是"},{"start":13865.009,"end":13894.038,"text":"三到十年一億也是五到十二現在我們要再多一個級距我們想要是在中間如果一千萬的話就五到十二一億以上就七年以上我想這個高的渣期的這部分的確是要遏止一定要嚴加的研辦那這部分我們修正查明先再行政再審查中什麼時候可以出來我們這盡快因為這部分還邀司法院來做一個討論我們希望能夠盡快能夠達成一個公示能夠把這個法案送到立法院來審議"},{"start":13896.052,"end":13912.732,"text":"院長剛剛部長回答的是針對詐騙那另外嫌犯但是本席剛有提到另外一部分是針對他騙的錢因為你現在很多的案件其實你被騙的金額到最後你也是拿不回來有 這份公文包括這個是我們關心的是在詐偽條46跟47條"},{"start":13915.495,"end":13940.215,"text":"他那部分現在以刑事大法庭來講的話他是採報酬縮報酬縮所以說他三千七千塊只拿了一筆這是很不公平那我想我們當初的立法本來就是要全部以被害人的被交付的被害金而縮但是現在我們現在有修法有修正草案在4647條這部分仿照德國立法例我們"},{"start":13941.176,"end":13961.776,"text":"什麼時候可以出來我們現在是也是草案現在同時因為我自己修了好幾條8月14號那個對那個我們六位六位送過去那最近密集的在做一個開會做一個最近就在開會所以什麼來院長還是強調嘛你不能全部都是積在行政院你什麼時候可以來到立法院我們共同討論"},{"start":13962.848,"end":13974.76,"text":"因為這個還要跟司法院做討論我記得8月10幾號已經開過一次會了開過會有具體結論我們就把它法治法完整送交大院院長三個月內有沒有辦法"},{"start":13976.567,"end":14001.25,"text":"現在是8月底了嘛我們9月10月會期下個會期一定提出來好不好下個會期是到12月一定提出來讓他可以大院有審議我們希望是在你總諮詢的時候總諮詢結束之後我們就可以來處理一定提出來讓大院有審議的時間好 院長其實本期還有很多的問題還有很多的意見尤其是針對我們現在所謂的這個融資公司專法"},{"start":14002.363,"end":14014.131,"text":"不能說融資公司因為其實大家看到很多的新聞案件融資公司也是現在有可能變成是詐騙集團的一環不要說讓劣幣驅逐良幣如果說合法的融資公司它可以持續的經營但是非法的很多的融資公司它沒有受到法律管理的時候很有可能會被犯罪回酬我們看到之前被逼死的那些民眾很大部分也都是有資金的居然被公佈在那裡我們會自己把他們的責任讓他們納入"},{"start":14057.801,"end":14060.241,"text":"好 謝謝侯孟凱文的資訊謝謝主任長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":14072.452,"end":14098.461,"text":"好 接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢張志倫委員請準備好 主席 在場委員先進列席的政府基幹事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長法務部金管會備詢"},{"start":14110.419,"end":14134.27,"text":"總委員好委員長好 部長好 主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁"},{"start":14137.098,"end":14163.011,"text":"抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A 騙子太多還是B 傻子太多院長你覺得呢"},{"start":14165.12,"end":14185.933,"text":"我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗那個犯罪的類型很多應該也不限於這兩種吧"},{"start":14186.738,"end":14200.67,"text":"不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼"},{"start":14204.608,"end":14215.319,"text":"直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷 要偷鈔票 偷金銀珠寶還要囂張 還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤"},{"start":14220.202,"end":14242.282,"text":"而且以前要到你山上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館"},{"start":14243.973,"end":14265.523,"text":"是 當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好 那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週財委會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果第二條簡報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢"},{"start":14266.618,"end":14287.667,"text":"第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該了解嗎那調查去辦了結果裁罰30萬 訴發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因呢民眾什麼感覺呢"},{"start":14288.644,"end":14308.656,"text":"不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡"},{"start":14309.707,"end":14331.277,"text":"那滑環呢以地方開放支付來講是多少五萬到五百萬相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分後面這個部分"},{"start":14332.097,"end":14333.678,"text":"像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰是不是要等到法院審理完成的確定"},{"start":14351.418,"end":14379.065,"text":"這一定要判決 一定要判決 占卜確定院長 了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢 很多民眾的抱怨哎呀 胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十也要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢"},{"start":14380.051,"end":14407.65,"text":"行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC"},{"start":14408.25,"end":14426.588,"text":"甚至你是電子支付業者 這是金管會管的也要KYC KYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理 大概要很難用人頭辦為什麼 因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個"},{"start":14427.626,"end":14455.86,"text":"為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭就叫用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶"},{"start":14456.94,"end":14485.348,"text":"沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請"},{"start":14488.896,"end":14515.434,"text":"時間暫停 老闆請院長 因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管 法務部要罰但是法要修 修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的"},{"start":14517.517,"end":14541.847,"text":"沒有 很多部會一起除怪但是主責是內政部有內政部 法務部 還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部要趕快提出 炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案"},{"start":14543.088,"end":14572.162,"text":"報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第八條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好 那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是出發部管的第三方支付是我們現在那管理部會好 那我們來看一下"},{"start":14573.123,"end":14593.685,"text":"當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒因此"},{"start":14594.505,"end":14612.02,"text":"要錯過怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外呢公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有如果我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心"},{"start":14612.728,"end":14641.528,"text":"那我要告訴院長問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構網路廣告平台第三方事務業者 電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所的祕密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有"},{"start":14642.233,"end":14665.59,"text":"公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張"},{"start":14667.369,"end":14693.688,"text":"公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案"},{"start":14695.407,"end":14714.108,"text":"一路專線部長 劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好 院長要不要支持他們"},{"start":14715.3,"end":14736.179,"text":"我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個"},{"start":14741.399,"end":14768.78,"text":"條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上又找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對"},{"start":14770.046,"end":14781.005,"text":"要靠持之以恆啊報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明星政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他"},{"start":14782.148,"end":14800.745,"text":"第一個不能往上升 這要努力了解 您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化"},{"start":14801.465,"end":14829.736,"text":"但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行成共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的 我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好 院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前"},{"start":14830.612,"end":14850.394,"text":"完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握"},{"start":14851.275,"end":14872.881,"text":"我們會就內容來討論我們來演你我是要因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全序部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院"},{"start":14873.621,"end":14898.661,"text":"根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的 謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂的俗稱國民法官法"},{"start":14899.241,"end":14928.23,"text":"他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了"},{"start":14928.837,"end":14952.297,"text":"有關於進速推動 對不起 上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法 考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員 這個建議很寶貴 謝謝好"},{"start":14955.235,"end":14977.429,"text":"最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速"},{"start":14983.137,"end":14998.668,"text":"推動警政署行政警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法治化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併增進現象院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的研議我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長"},{"start":15004.821,"end":15027.274,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢包括因為我們最後一位今天中午以前是張志倫委員即將質詢我們謝謝台中選區的黃建豪委員從早上陪專案報告到現在再次致謝那接下來張志倫委員結束質詢之後我們會進行午休現在請張志倫委員請質詢"},{"start":15035.046,"end":15052.563,"text":"好 謝謝韓院長各位委員 各位官員 大家午安大家辛苦了有請卓榮泰院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢三位委員好好"},{"start":15053.908,"end":15080.849,"text":"卓院長好 辛苦了我是今天早上最後一位質詢今天要請教院長的事有關於我們打詐行動綱領2.0的執行成效首先還是要跟院長拜託因為大家知道現在全台灣詐騙案件的數量跟金額還是很高每一個被詐騙的家庭跟受害者常常會遭到家破人亡或者是被詐騙了以後"},{"start":15082.55,"end":15107.281,"text":"這個心神不寧 寢食難安或是甚至有這樣子後遺症就是被恐懼下的後遺症所造成的影響所以這邊還是要拜託院長大家一起來努力讓打詐更有成效讓詐騙的金額逐漸減少那今天我提供一些資料給院長跟院長報告從111年的7月核定了打詐綱領以後到了112年提到"},{"start":15109.684,"end":15119.974,"text":"我們有了打炸綱領1.5以及到這次的2.0版本我們看到我們的預算我們行政院的預算從112年的1.28億到現在112跟113年的"},{"start":15128.531,"end":15145.671,"text":"15億以及到現在114年到115年我們整個的經費已經高達了33億所以基本上我們是有給希望是有給行政院足夠的打炸的經費那已經從上一次的1.5到2.0已經增加了兩倍的經費"},{"start":15146.792,"end":15172.984,"text":"可是我們看到政府投入打詐的金額越高可是民眾被詐騙的金額也越高我們看到就是你們這次今天專案報告的資料也顯示從去年113年的8月到114年的7月其實也剛好滿週年警方共受理了19萬8千多件的詐欺案民眾的財損已經達到了一千"},{"start":15174.164,"end":15183.857,"text":"一千一百九十四億左右的這樣的金額等於國人一年的被詐騙的金額已經超過了千億所以本席要這邊跟"},{"start":15185.516,"end":15205.255,"text":"院長報告其實這個金額是有意義的代表現在詐騙的展值已經數字上實際數字上已經超過千億所以變成這樣的金額我們一定要好好來努力來把它給下降那人民對於政府打詐的民調來顯示我相信普遍的人民也是認為這個詐騙的越來越嚴重"},{"start":15207.697,"end":15228.337,"text":"而且問題有逐漸的惡化所以我要來請教也要跟院長報告本席認為打詐應該有六個字應該要來做才能有效的來降低詐騙就是應該要嚴查 嚴辦以及重罰院長你支持我這樣的說法嗎"},{"start":15230.771,"end":15237.848,"text":"我覺得對於這個猖獗的犯罪的行為公權力一定要張揚出來才能夠保障人民的安全所以"},{"start":15239.097,"end":15265.706,"text":"嚴查嚴辦這當然是要的重罰的部分我們要經過修法來讓他的整個罰則跟他所受到的傷害以及財產的損失要成相當的比例好 謝謝謝謝院長可是首先我要先跟您報告有關於審計部所提出來的資料審計部裡面有提到似乎法官在過去的量刑有過輕導致車手繳回不罰所得後就輕輕放下"},{"start":15266.286,"end":15286.524,"text":"根據審計部的報告我不知道院長有沒有看過從108年到113年截至到113年8月底法院依照刑法第339條之四加重詐欺罪科處的刑期大多是在三年以下處三年以上的刑期只有1%所以"},{"start":15289.706,"end":15310.36,"text":"這樣子我覺得會讓人民尤其省紀部這邊也特別提到說會不會有認為法院侵犯的一個狀況其實就我跟很多在民間一起努力在打詐的一些好朋友他們所反映給我的他們說基本上很多詐騙的人他們詐騙完以後"},{"start":15311.738,"end":15340.863,"text":"他們不是判的是三年以上他們判三年以上不到1%他們很多都是判六個月以下然後都在服勞動服務他們怎麼做勞動服務他們就是在法院外面在掃地所以我這邊是不是可以請院長可以幫我做一個統計資料到底詐騙的人他們所過去所判的刑責到底是不是像審計部說的都是輕判"},{"start":15341.283,"end":15360.73,"text":"或甚至有些都是判六個月以下都是在做勞動服務的這個資料是不是可以提供本席來做參考據統計出來的數字跟太陽確實是如此所以我們經過層層的修法包括打炸釋法我們也希望說第一個加重它的罰則未來我們覺得還不足我們還要啟動新的修法程序請部長答覆"},{"start":15361.991,"end":15376.046,"text":"這部分做一個補充的確那個是不是判得太輕剛才委員提到說大部分都判六個月以下在法院外面在掃地做勞動服務其實這個要跟委員報告事實上那個"},{"start":15376.767,"end":15393.736,"text":"因為絕大部分的那個網路電信詐欺的絕大部分案件都是車手跟尤其是人頭的一個提供人頭賬戶當然這個刑度是低但是我們要處罰就是詐團那一部分那現在我們有做一個這個的確是有要回應的話其實我們有一個"},{"start":15394.278,"end":15421.855,"text":"要求我們依照詐偽條第50條來做一個要求檢查機關具體求刑那抬高檢署他也有提供一個具體求刑的一個標準你說的是刑事案件妥適量刑刑法嗎剛剛其他委員有提出來的對不對這個就是我們有做現有的這樣處理那剛才院長有提到就是要修法因為我們認為高額詐欺還要再加強另外我們也更司法因為這就是法官判的"},{"start":15422.655,"end":15444.478,"text":"所以我們跟司法院我們也就跟他做一個協調就是說我們提出我們的一個良心的標準給司法院做一個調整良心的一個參考所以省紀部提出來報告認為說判刑有稍微過輕事實上應該是有這樣的情形希望說未來還是可以提供本席這樣的資料到底詐騙犯他們所判刑的大概"},{"start":15445.219,"end":15473.608,"text":"大多數的比例是判多久還是要提供這樣的資料可以嗎第二個就是因為省紀部提出這樣的資訊說判刑過低所以再犯比例是相當的高我問了很多基層在查詐欺的警員跟我分享他說每次抓到詐欺犯都是同一批人都是同樣的人我請教院長跟部長你認為這些詐騙犯的再犯比例有多高"},{"start":15474.624,"end":15492.806,"text":"這部分我們再做一個數據再一個我收到的資料我想說整個是辦案不立這個沒有我們現在辦案那個我收到的資料那個再犯比例其實超過八成這個詳細的數字我要請部長你好好來統計一下所以我希望說"},{"start":15494.622,"end":15520.79,"text":"剛剛我們有提到所以我說在量刑的部分一定要是不是有需要重罰所以我們的刑事案件這個妥適量刑罰這個部分我也希望說是不是可以盡速來提供立法的一個動作這部分我們再來提供另外其實跟我們做一個補充其實現在那個假釋緩刑了假釋那部分我們就是在詐謀條例出犯我們就到刑期要執行三問之二才會假釋謝謝部長我們要三問的話就不假釋了"},{"start":15522.793,"end":15536,"text":"好 OK 那我們進下一個我們看一個剛剛很多委員給院長看的影片我們簡單快速看一下300萬是什麼意思就是這台有一個財損局到我頭上的300萬他只幫你扣7213元我跟你講為什麼因為錢花完你這樣可能扣到又不多"},{"start":15550.76,"end":15556.763,"text":"像我們這種有沒有如果你今天不和解不賠錢給受愛人的話假設就是賠那麼好過通常都會關到九成"},{"start":15564.738,"end":15592.661,"text":"好 謝謝院長跟部長我相信你們剛剛已經看過這影片看過我多次了我的問題跟其他委員的問題可能不太一樣這裡面提到了很多的元素第一個是被害人的財損的金額是300萬其實剛剛這裡面我覺得他這個影片是有設計過的就是低於嚴重財閥的500萬之內到底被害者的損失金額多少錢"},{"start":15594.738,"end":15605.793,"text":"沒有一個準確的一個金額可是它裡面提到了幾個重點就是說它裡面的教學影片要求車手或是詐騙集團把詐騙的金額給花掉花到"},{"start":15606.869,"end":15634.839,"text":"他最後能查到的金流只有七千兩百一十三萬這就認定是他的犯罪所得第二個重點他為了要尋求保釋所以他就是跟法官請求說那法官如果我除了我自己的犯罪所得以外我再多繳一點錢給這些被害人是否就可以申請假釋或檢除其刑那我想要請教針對這樣子的重點部長跟院長你們要如何來回應這些詐騙"},{"start":15636.339,"end":15656.033,"text":"詐騙的車手已經在網路上宣傳教這些其他可能未來潛在的車手這樣的行為我覺得這是非常嚴重的一個問題我認為這個影片我真的是很糟糕他那個車手詐騙進入就是剛才我有提到就是規避那個詐偽條例43條的高額詐欺的徒刑"},{"start":15656.893,"end":15680.023,"text":"現在但是他如果說第三百萬還是回到刑法339條就是加重詐欺那是一年以上七年以下這部分我們在位其實三百萬也是金額蠻高我們會做具體的酬刑另外車手把錢花掉剩下7213這就剛才委員 局委委員有提到就是說刑事大法庭裡面採證的說法就是個人的報酬說"},{"start":15681.143,"end":15701.738,"text":"而不是整個被害人損害說那這部分我們有做一個修法的修正草案還有那個五百萬的規避的等等那個我們另外再做修法的一個所以我還要請教另外那個和解什麼假釋那一頓剛才有公務員報告過了詐偽條例出犯你一定要到三分之二才有辦法合乎假釋的門檻不一定要給他假釋"},{"start":15702.398,"end":15727.272,"text":"另外有雷犯的話 委員關係有雷犯這部分我們要達四分之三如果第三次犯的話我們就完全沒有假釋的機會了所以我們起死氣之案我們在審核這些詐騙的話我們還是說嚴加審核那這部分我想這個影片這個是一個教學影片就像部長講的一件事跟委員報告我們剛剛看到影片"},{"start":15728.433,"end":15750.145,"text":"部長在研究如果我們現在是我們已經可以將他落地的四大平台Meta、IG、Google、YouTube乃至Trade我們都可以要求他剛剛看的是TikTok就是無法落地不讓我們管理所以這個平台是絕對是有他的問題如果是其他平台我們馬上就可以有著力點可以出去了"},{"start":15751.005,"end":15775.739,"text":"其實院長跟部長可以去坊間查問一下大概車手所拿到的報酬大概是犯罪所得的百分之多少絕對不會像他們講的這麼低其實有時候車手他嘴巴講的是這麼低未來他可能還會跟詐騙集團使用虛擬貨幣的方式來去交錢的這樣的問題所以我們才說還有很多相關的法令要來實施比如說虛擬貨幣專法等等的也希望院長跟部長來加強一下"},{"start":15776.9,"end":15793.14,"text":"那再來我要講的特別時間的關係我特別要講的就是有關於我們現在第一線很辛苦的不管是警察同仁在抓車手或抓詐騙集團的部分其實或是在做監聽等等這樣的工作其實都非常的辛苦"},{"start":15793.761,"end":15813.048,"text":"其實現在其實內政部已經有提出一個防制詐欺犯罪有功人員檢舉獎勵辦法等等這樣的問題其實是可以讓我們第一線的執行人員在遇到這麼危險的這些狀態的時候是有一個講仇的機制我現在聽說這個草案還在行政院核准當中"},{"start":15813.988,"end":15834.985,"text":"那是不是應該要快速來趕快來通過讓我們基層的警察同仁或是在執勤的人員有一個更強力的這個獎勵方式讓他們來執勤是 因為我知道內政部有提出這樣一個草案出來那我也是看到這樣的內容我覺得讓他更精進所以我今天在早上報告的時候"},{"start":15835.686,"end":15863.24,"text":"我一直強調對這些第一線的工作夥伴給予更多的感謝跟鼓勵我想我的用意也在這裡那我們會加速我請內政部說明委員我們除了法治化以外其實我們7月開始的時候已經有這些獎勵金的核發原則按照比例現在大概是發給2000到1萬元所以就要拜託部長把這個草案的內容跟你現在實際有發放的金額做一個對比這已經會整個部會的意見目前正在審議中跟委員報告"},{"start":15863.865,"end":15882.239,"text":"好 最後我還是要拜託其實在詐騙體團他們有一個手法很單純他們都是會設立一個群組像剛剛我們院長講的他們會設立一個群組不管是用LINE FB的群組他們會設立一個聊天群當車手被抓的時候他們就會把這個車手在這個聊天群裡面剔除掉"},{"start":15882.999,"end":15912.359,"text":"所以很重要的一個機制就是我們是不是可以溯源到我們這些的平台業者很多在國外的業者他們願不願意提供給我們相關他們的聊天紀錄等等這些資料就我了解的是他們在取得的部分是有困難的請問是這樣嗎所以我要問院長跟部長的是我們跨國的合作的進度到底是如何以及我們相關的很多的我們跟這些平台業者我們到底拿不拿到這些他們的聊天紀錄等等這樣的資料是不是有遇到相關的一個"},{"start":15913.439,"end":15930.664,"text":"困難等等這些問題那我們有沒有一些明確的時間表讓我們可以跟這些平台業者來做一個很好的溝通是不是可以請部長院長來是 鮑委員是這樣子我們在去年一整年當中還陸續到包括日本去尋求包括LINE或者是Meta這些他們"},{"start":15931.184,"end":15955.513,"text":"是不是有拿不到資料的問題做決策的人告訴我們說如果台灣要實施這個實名制要落地的時候他們能不能夠做到所以目前為止我們按照這樣子的程度跟數位部一起來努力慢慢再做到了希望用實名制的方式來落實這是第一點然後第二個就是有關那個網路廣告平台的部分也是一樣你必須要落實你沒有落實的話用很快的速度的話"},{"start":15969.903,"end":15982.834,"text":"好 謝謝張志倫委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝歡迎各位 我們上午會議進行到此為止下午兩點三十分繼續開會再次呼籲各黨團能夠下午敦促"},{"start":15984.625,"end":15996.906,"text":"所有的委員盡量多多參與專案報告再一次謝謝台中選區的黃敬航委員從早一直陪到現在參與專案會議非常感謝我們現在進行休息下午兩點半繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":21569.321,"end":21590.303,"text":"歡迎會員 我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請郭育秦委員質詢王宏威委員請準備謝謝主席 有請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21606.176,"end":21622.682,"text":"我想從最近大家一直在關心所謂的這個詐騙的這樣子的一個議題風源一家五口的一個悲劇我想這個不是只有台灣其實詐騙這樣子的一個全世界都在關注的議題其實在歐美也是一樣的"},{"start":21623.682,"end":21641.985,"text":"那根據統計27%的受害者他們在接觸詐騙的同時其實在第一個小時內受騙的人其實也非常非常之多那另外呢關於投資以及交友詐騙這個長時期的被養套殺就是取得所謂的被害人的一個信任"},{"start":21642.786,"end":21661.579,"text":"到巨額的一個金錢被騙我想這一年平均下來整個所有的犯罪所得是高達將近這個還是2022年的統計高達700億以上我想這一連串我們看到詐騙的一個問題都是長時間大家普遍關注的一個議題"},{"start":21663.441,"end":21675.901,"text":"當然去年我們的行政院跟立法院其實也合作通過了新打炸四法我們從內容當中可以看到從市炸 堵炸 防炸跟阻炸以及我們的城炸"},{"start":21676.651,"end":21704.184,"text":"這五個部分的面向當然我們也看到最近其實我們也有很多就是破獲的一些案件當然也交出了一些成績單但我想做得永遠不夠根據今年的7月光是打詐飆板當中數據顯示我就以一個地區來做這樣子的一個例子說明包含台中光是詐騙集團被破獲的數量是高居全國第一"},{"start":21704.844,"end":21720.322,"text":"那另外呢他的這個詐騙集團被破獲的高達有50團432個人落網那受理的這個詐騙的案件呢也是高居第二那整個所有的這個詐騙的案件數是高達2245件"},{"start":21722.644,"end":21743.747,"text":"那造成的財損光是7月份就已經高達了有11億多那我不曉得為什麼很多的詐騙集團是選擇在中部那也有許多的這個查獲的數量其實在台中也是最多的但並沒有因為被查獲的數量增多"},{"start":21744.505,"end":21756.241,"text":"而下降他所被詐騙的這樣子的一個金額跟財損這個是兩相矛盾的一個現象我們有沒有分析過這個背後的原因大概會是什麼"},{"start":21758.874,"end":21775.802,"text":"委員我先報告一下您提到說台中市最多那其實有我們警政署的資料大概六都裡面第一個人口多第二個交通便利還有就是說他在包括網路或者是其他的通訊都非常的好而且因為他在大樓裡面或是在園區裡面"},{"start":21777.143,"end":21802.603,"text":"隱密性反而高比在偏鄉來得好所以被查獲到的次數就是您看到的統計資料就比較多我想這個是我們警政署的同仁在統計的時候所得到的一個統計的結果所以我想我們也會特別留意在都會地區如何可以把這個詐騙集團可以來處理的一個最重要的一個關鍵部長也點出了我等一下要接下來要詢問的"},{"start":21803.857,"end":21825.514,"text":"這個是媒體的報導我想已經不止一次的一個報導包含台中的七級高級商辦因為它的管制嚴格但反而成為博弈炸團的工作基地這個其實也是都經過媒體多次的報導也連同這樣子的一個報導當中其實我們可以看到"},{"start":21825.994,"end":21848.312,"text":"這些所謂的這個高級商辦豪宅地區那原本他的管制其實就是嚴格但是也很容易淪為所謂的詐騙集團他們的工作基地那就如同剛剛部長所說的因為隱密性高但是呢就是他的所有人就是房屋的所有人他不管是短期租賃也好或者是他自己持有也好"},{"start":21849.107,"end":21865.175,"text":"其實在短期租賃容易讓他們比方說他們可以用比較高於行情的一些租金可能月付押金的一個方式他就可以租下這個豪宅那因為豪宅跟豪宅之間鄰居啊其實他們的互動時期相對的是減少的"},{"start":21866.075,"end":21890.741,"text":"所以其實他們的管理可能就產生了這樣子的一個漏洞那在這樣子的一個漏洞當他們聽到一些風吹草動的時候他們是即刻就可以逃離現場這個也讓我們的警方其實也是長期來是難以追查這是原因之一第二個我剛剛講因為詐騙集團他們通常有時候不是只有用短期租賃他們是直接買下合法的掩護"},{"start":21891.661,"end":21910.706,"text":"或者所謂的直接買下合法掩護因為他把它當成一個長期作案的一個基地那基於他的產權其實是合法的那相對來講他的管委會或者他的保全其實並沒有明確的被法律授權去進行所謂的通報相對的來講也保護這些所謂的詐騙集團的總部的一個安全"},{"start":21911.446,"end":21927.197,"text":"這個也變成是我們在看到像七夕這樣所謂的高風險的一個社區租賃或者是購置的一個行為我們針對這個部分有沒有一套可以更加有效而且管理的一個機制來彌補這樣子的一個漏洞"},{"start":21927.828,"end":21947.92,"text":"報告委我們了解這樣的狀況您所提到的非常的正確也就是說有的時候他還會用人頭戶的方式他並不是用真名然後再來就是豪宅跟豪宅或者是房間跟房間之間大家都互不相認識除非說他出入或者是有一些其他的犯罪這樣子的部分這地方的政府警察才會去處理"},{"start":21948.36,"end":21967.524,"text":"所以我們現在中央跟地方的部分就要來協助就是如果發現它有異常也就譬如說它在電腦網路上面突然跳增非常的高或是用電量非常高的話我們會用這樣的方式來查找有可能潛在的加害的這個集團那這個都要長時間的監控才有可能達到這樣的目的"},{"start":21967.924,"end":21987.977,"text":"所以現在這些長時間的監控已經開始在著手進行其實我們都會有留意但是最最最佳的方式還是說會透過譬如說有人來檢舉那我們會更快因為如果詐騙集團假設他們都是比較年輕的或是說看起來很像是犯罪幫派這樣的話警方才會特別留意"},{"start":21988.397,"end":22015.629,"text":"但是如果他打扮得很時髦很登對或者看不出來的話人家以為他就是豪宅裡面的住戶所以還是要透過檢舉的方式比較好如果說郭委員有這方面的資訊的話您給我們馬上就來處理我想這個七期的模式應該絕非是個案我們也擔心其實因為豪宅也不是只有台中有其實各地都有豪宅但是類似像這樣子的一個所謂的犯罪的模式我們也擔心它其實已經會變成是"},{"start":22017.45,"end":22040.395,"text":"全台灣各地的豪宅型或複合型的這些所謂的社區它會形成一個巨大的一個社區防線的破口我想這樣子的一個模式有可能會複製到全台灣各地那我想很多的豪宅其實他們追求所謂的這個高隱私就我剛剛講的鄰居其實不互相往來那就會變成零監督的一個環境再加上有時候是租期短"},{"start":22041.435,"end":22068.585,"text":"豬集團就更難掌握他到底是第幾手的轉租所以這個人的流動讓很多的成豬人的動態其實根本沒有人知道所以其實這個也是我們非常擔心的一個部分那另外就是在詐騙集團就是利用這些所謂的這些漏洞那北中南各地他們在用所謂的VPN或者是多跳節點這些所謂的科技的一個手段就會讓我們的警方其實更難掌握"},{"start":22069.446,"end":22085.668,"text":"這也是我們真的一直不斷的我們在想這個上有政策正在下有對策其實他們也不斷的在翻新他們所謂的詐騙的一些手法我們很擔心這不是一個單一的個案而是全台灣是目前持續在擴散當中的一個狀況"},{"start":22086.869,"end":22105.826,"text":"那我想如果再加上這個屋主他自己本身就是詐騙集團的成員如果他又是詐騙集團成員利用自家的豪宅來進行所謂的犯罪其實管委會跟物業管理我們應該要怎麼樣來從外圍來做控管這個我們有想過嗎"},{"start":22106.807,"end":22129.87,"text":"我想我們可以從不一定是警政系統啦譬如說民政系統或者是大樓管委會就是如果有出入人口複雜或者是很奇怪這整個月都沒有人進出可是用電量又非常的高然後每天都叫便當這表示說他們可能在裡面從事的是詐騙的行為那這個呢還是一樣如果管委會不願意提供給我們這個資訊因為管委會他是要保護用戶"},{"start":22130.831,"end":22152.179,"text":"他自己本身的一個隱秘性他如果沒辦法提供我們這些資訊的話會比較難一點但是我們還會從其他的管道來試看看好像譬如說今天早上有多位委員有提到有一位在抖音上面在炫耀說他賺了300萬然後他只要賠7000多塊然後就可以不被收押禁建"},{"start":22153.019,"end":22176.21,"text":"事實上我們也在提供資訊的時候我們的刑事警察非常的認真院長有交代其實我們在8月9號的時候已經通報抖音把這個影片要下架而且我們在8月13號中午的時候已經將這位姓廖的疑似嫌疑犯查緝盜案函請雲林地檢署來偵辦"},{"start":22177.17,"end":22199.84,"text":"也就是說警方如果有任何這方面的資訊提供給我們的話我們會很快不管是從網路或是其他實體的查緝到案的部分動作都會非常的快接下來我想要請問的就是所謂的跨部會的治安協作的部分我想這個不是單一只有警政署或者是我們的內政部還包含"},{"start":22201.089,"end":22229.649,"text":"移民署或者是甚至我們的這個抒發部的部分那我想這個跨部會的一個協作那不管是我們的這個公寓大廈管理條例當中我們是不是也要做有一些灰色地帶的一個修正來防堵這一類的所謂的這個詐騙的這個事件那另外還有包含就是我們這個對外籍人士的車手他們短期來台的動態其實掌握不足這個其實也會成為這個詐騙當中的另外一個我們"},{"start":22230.329,"end":22255.538,"text":"其實可以去關注的一個地方那另外就是所謂的這個高隱密性的所謂的機房的這個網路流量的分析其實這也是警政署這個地方或者書發部這個部分我們可能也要是要加強那我想在我們的這個詐騙集團其實他比較常利用剛剛我們講到的是豪宅去收受所謂的這個大筆的現金讓金流的部分其實掌握其實是"},{"start":22257.139,"end":22282.498,"text":"有時候它的金流掌握是更加的困難我在這裡我想請教一下關於金管會的部分金管會是不是我們請金管會金管會是不是能夠將豪宅當中異常的現金流納入洗錢防治法的一個監控網這個部分我們有這樣子的一個措施怎麼樣來盯這一類的漏洞"},{"start":22282.998,"end":22292.493,"text":"世保委員如果它這個豪宅是有涉及到貸款那我們當然是完全能夠掌握到這個金流如果它大額資金的流動本來就在我們洗錢房子的納管範圍之內"},{"start":22294.714,"end":22323.232,"text":"另外在科技的部分我想就是我剛剛提到豪宅內當中的這些機房其實它要去偵查的難度其實是比較高的那犯罪集團它常常會利用所謂的這個VPN這個多跳節點的一個隱密的一個網路的流量那書發部在這個部分有沒有透過類似的科技上的一個手段能夠協助發現及早發現類似這樣子一個高密隱密性的一個機房"},{"start":22324.605,"end":22337.73,"text":"報告委員 這個的確是個問題那偵測的方式剛剛講就從流量或者是甚至於可以偵測就是網路流量還有用電量那甚至還有人說可以用電視播去偵測"},{"start":22338.995,"end":22360.449,"text":"這個我們都有在持續關注但不過現在最大問題是第一個就是說尤其是他們當連上VPN到國外以後他們常常是真正發送那些大量的訊息或者這種詐騙的訊息是從國外發送回來所以國內出去的流量不大可是到國外就大量進來所以說有時候在技術上比較困難鎖定另外一點就是說就算我們"},{"start":22361.75,"end":22386.666,"text":"有懷疑還是需要有法規的依據去進去查驗所以我想在這裡面我講技術上還是有點挑戰那在實行上的確需要跟各部位合作你說技術上其實目前還是需要有挑戰就是剛剛講就是說第一個就是說它的流量因為現在這種有方法嗎我們有找到一些方法嗎或者是我們可以複製國外他們怎麼樣來"},{"start":22387.915,"end":22410.144,"text":"因為他們現在都是用VPN引到國外去說真正的犯罪的server是在國外所以大量的流量是從國外進來這個都不見得是從公寓裡面出去的所以這個是當然我們可以跟ISP業者或者ISP業者合作看看能不能把這種流量把它找出來不過"},{"start":22411.727,"end":22435.375,"text":"是有機會可以去解決不過這目前還是有些挑戰就是好 這些挑戰我們什麼時候可以盡快的我們再回去研究一下但是我會覺得這個會有挑戰這委員的想法很好但是我想這個我們再回去再去分析請陳書偉好跟委員報告是剛剛委員提到的這個流量部分其實在原來我們警方在處理這個"},{"start":22437.416,"end":22464.842,"text":"攔截違反著作權的信號OTTV那一塊已經處理過炸團也有這種情況但是炸團它本身進一步的把流量分散所以現在比較不容易處理但是這個機制警方其實一直持續有在掌握有跟電信公司在掌握當中好 我想打炸這個工作其實真的是從上到下我們每一個人其實都要特別去"},{"start":22465.498,"end":22484.777,"text":"去關注最後其實我還想要再強調一點我想許多的受害者應該是說被詐騙的這些受害者他們其實都是社會支持系統比較薄弱的一些族群比方說像老人家我想這個部分其實他們失去了畢生的積蓄之後可能"},{"start":22485.658,"end":22507.893,"text":"苦於不敢開口那也不敢去報警然後他們礙於顏面的關係但最後其實我們看到有許多就因此走上絕路那我想這些數字上遠遠高於資料的一個顯示那納入公共衛生或者是在我們的社福的部分來填補這些社會的安全網的一個裂縫也是我們當務之急這個部分就是"},{"start":22521.653,"end":22522.574,"text":"謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":22535.757,"end":22548.801,"text":"卓院長喝口水吧你每次喝完水我才會呼叫下一位好 謝謝接下來我們請王宏威委員質詢蔡易瑜委員請準備好 主席我請卓院長還有內政部部長NCC"},{"start":22563.243,"end":22583.204,"text":"代理主委 處發部部長 經管會主委 法務部部長王會員 我們一次是三位為主那就先請院長和內政部部長以及法務部部長好 謝謝 請卓院長 內政部 法務部備詢"},{"start":22592.813,"end":22611.391,"text":"王委員好院長好時間要暫停一下我現在是請兩位部長就位好時間暫停好院長我想請問一下針對現在政府反詐騙的成績您滿意嗎"},{"start":22613.459,"end":22635.628,"text":"早上也有相當多的委員詢問過這樣我始終的答案是我知道我跟國人一樣都不會滿意現在的任何成績但是我希望大家給我們第一線的工作人員多一點的鼓勵多一點的時間我想請問一下我們內政部長您認為在內政部的工作打照有收到成效嗎您滿意嗎"},{"start":22637.469,"end":22661.978,"text":"報告 報告委員從來沒有滿意過因為打炸本來就是有很多不同的面向大家一起合作但是我們第一線的同仁確實很我們第一線的同仁確實很努力非常的努力在處理打炸有成效嗎我認為成效不是太好但是我們仍然有很多接近的空間我請教我們法務部部長您對法務部打炸的成效您滿意嗎"},{"start":22663.893,"end":22689.189,"text":"我想我們可以再更有努力的一個空間那我想我們檢察官也跟各個機關來做一個合作好 所以成效仍然不夠好對 那個我們有很多的非常好的一個案例那我想對一個詐團這其實也建立一個很好的一個我來請院長和部長其實我剛才點名的幾位部長首長也請你們看一下"},{"start":22690.242,"end":22719.522,"text":"行政院一直把打詐作為一個主要的施政的目標但是這幾年行政院變成伏詐王也就是從蔡英文政府時代那個時候從成立所謂的跨部會中心的打詐中心一直到2022年又成立了打詐國家隊2023年蔡政府又成立了行政院的打詐辦公室"},{"start":22720.242,"end":22742.714,"text":"可是我們打詐的金額跟數量逐年升高並沒有隨著這些打詐中心打詐辦公室而有所改善而這兩年我們打詐就是被詐騙的金額更是節節升高以今年1到7月份我們半年被詐騙的金額達到555億元"},{"start":22746.536,"end":22766.686,"text":"比去年的502年已经超越了而这个是我们行政院又成立新世代打击诈骗诈欺行动纲领的2.0所以我们现在每一个首长来都说要打仗预算也编了"},{"start":22767.446,"end":22785.411,"text":"但是如我們看他的被詐騙的數字尤其金額事實上是越來越讓人觸目驚心所以行政院變成伏詐王而不是打詐王我另外請教在今年我們編列了預算2025年"},{"start":22787.412,"end":22807.874,"text":"中央政府就是當時因為要打炸所以這個有關於打炸的預算由前一年的2024年13億元增加到73億元增加的數量不算少是倍數5.6倍之多我想請問一下"},{"start":22809.095,"end":22834.128,"text":"這麼多的預算的金額其中還是網路課金運用的經濟計畫所以我剛才為什麼去特別去點名像數法部NCC請問一下我們的預算用到哪裡去了為什麼我們編列這麼多的預算給行政院說實在我在司法法治委員會法部說要打仗要編預算我們一毛錢都不敢刪全部給"},{"start":22835.475,"end":22861.093,"text":"但是我們打炸的成績剛才看到鴨鴨屋所以我想請問一下這樣子的一個成績所以我剛才請教各位你們滿意嗎如果你們滿意的話我覺得所有的老百姓欲哭無淚好你們在報告裡面也講到打炸有幾個試炸這個是主要是內政部的工作"},{"start":22861.954,"end":22881.646,"text":"賭詐NCC防詐速發部阻詐金管會懲詐懲戒詐騙法務部所以院長最近也講到行政院要內閣改組如果以現在詐騙這種成績這幾個部會誰應該要下台部長請說一下"},{"start":22889.137,"end":22905.592,"text":"謝謝委員打炸當然是國家重要的施政方向但是各部會不是單一做打炸這件工作我當然會要求各位首長專注在打炸這個事情上提出一個更讓國人理解跟接受的成績"},{"start":22906.332,"end":22920.937,"text":"但是部會的工作包羅萬象我會用綜合性的考量來看看對整個團隊對政府的施政對人民有沒有提出更好的政策我們政府的施政終究會有一些目標跟KPI值"},{"start":22922.017,"end":22951.378,"text":"那麼有些是財經財經做得好不好那就要看了看我們的經濟成長率看我們的失業率看我們的消費物價是不是有通貨膨脹這都是有數字可以去做一個參考剛才講到這幾個部會沒有錯我也同意他的工作不是完全是在打擊詐騙可是當現在的打詐的工作已經確實做到所有的國人都有感"},{"start":22951.738,"end":22973.623,"text":"那種有感是什麼 有感的憤怒啊 有感的憤怒現在已經到了摩才害命的地步我們最近發生的台中豐原一家五口我們很難過 自殺死亡 為了詐騙我們也有看到內湖母女 一對母女也為了詐騙"},{"start":22975.183,"end":22982.958,"text":"而這個輕生所以當我們看到這麼多的社會事件而我們去看到打炸的成績所以"},{"start":22984.124,"end":23004.799,"text":"院長你覺得這幾個部會打詐的成績我不認為你會滿意如果你滿意的話那就代表你們是整個政府的集體麻木所以我想請問未來在內閣改組裡面打詐不力會不會成為內閣改組的一個檢討的其中的一個環節"},{"start":23005.936,"end":23029.543,"text":"我早上的報告跟剛剛我們都說過我們不會以現在做的成績做任何的滿意但是我們如果跟去年8月跟今年相比我們在案件數有降低了22%財產損失有降低了37%這當然還是有相當高的金額但至少趨勢有在緩緩下降我們給我們的法律依據法律手段更多的所以這個意思還要給你們時間"},{"start":23030.643,"end":23034.566,"text":"我希望大家給我們更多一點時間還要給時間我們把現在的機制讓它更完善更強大依照現在所列舉的各種機制來做好各種工作這就是你不了解為什麼你們現在的整個內閣的民調滿意度這麼低"},{"start":23049.537,"end":23077.476,"text":"其实老说所有的相关的这些政府施政打诈是民运最高的其中之一我们了解同意好另外院长跟您请教一下我们再来看下一页今天在网络上有一个公文因为现在诈骗太多了我要跟院长来求证一下网络上有一个公文就是总统府函文给行政院"},{"start":23079.952,"end":23101.634,"text":"這個檢証本府公共事務室會診就是今年7月份民眾關注的重要議題其中一個就是要檢討今年7月26號罷免投票結果檢討罷免失敗的原因而且提供後續的施政建議院長 這個公文是真的還是假的因為我不曉得是不是詐騙"},{"start":23102.657,"end":23128.871,"text":"而且我沒有看過這個公文但是如果文藝看起來他是反映民眾關注重要議題像這樣反映民眾關注議題的文會有相當多這只是很多當中的一件而已當民眾有提出這個時候希望行政院來檢討就會轉到這裡來這只是過程當中所以你就會檢討所以院長我看我想你看到這個公文的時候你會被皮皮剉因為第一個"},{"start":23130.032,"end":23158.082,"text":"在整個大罷免當時總統賴清德主席講說這是公民團體的運動但是後來我們看到民進黨中央有很多的發文民進黨直接拿公文要求配合大罷免這個是我們第一次看到來自於總統府提到大罷免所以請問一下這種公文到底是總統的韓文還是黨中央的韓文"},{"start":23158.622,"end":23185.455,"text":"報告委員 他並不是要我們配合大罷免的任何行動他是民眾來要求我們做這樣的檢討但是我認為行政院重要的工作不在檢討罷免的成敗與否行政院檢討是罷免也好或是8月23的公投也好這個投票的秩序是不是順利這個才是我們該檢討的這個公文裡面有說檢討罷免失敗原因承認大罷免大失敗所以您承認大罷免大失敗嗎"},{"start":23186.235,"end":23213.126,"text":"我們只希望不管是罷免或是公投讓罷免跟公投的投票行為能夠順利這個是行政院的工作中選會跟行政院的工作至於他的結果如何不在我們檢討的範圍另外院長我請教在726之後總統府已經要求你們要去檢討失敗的原因而且提供後續的政績那麼如果823也大罷免繼續大失敗您會因此請辭下台嗎"},{"start":23214.875,"end":23221.678,"text":"我們不會去檢討罷免失敗的原因只要罷免的投票順利不順利這才是行政院會檢討的地方希望他能夠順利那麼一個政治工作者隨時"},{"start":23235.944,"end":23258.78,"text":"對國人負責這是應該有的態度院長 我剛才特別講其實你的打詐大失敗你們的打詐大失敗絕對也是這次大罷免大失敗的原因但是其中因為檢討有關於大罷免失敗的原因我也要問因為這兩天你們行政院傳出終於要普罷現金一萬元"},{"start":23259.941,"end":23284.546,"text":"因為之前行政院說我們立法院通過的普發現金一萬元是違憲然後又說呢這個呢根本是政府沒有錢那甚至有民進黨立委還說這是配合中共的窮台政策把我們立法院通過的普發現金一萬元講的不值一文"},{"start":23285.666,"end":23304.672,"text":"那可是現在呢行政院也提出要普罷現金一萬元那我請問一下之前你們對於立法院所通過普罷現金一萬元的種種的污蔑和抨擊這是不是一個詐騙這不是污蔑我們是表達行政的立場我們要舉借這是事實"},{"start":23305.752,"end":23324.838,"text":"這次的2350億以上的普發現金其中部分要舉借債務來支應這是事實當時沒有經過徵詢行政院而增加大幅的支出違反了憲法跟預算法的精神這也是事實所以你們現在你們來發就沒有違憲你們來發就沒有財務的問題這個說得通嗎我們是舉債"},{"start":23333.066,"end":23361.358,"text":"然後我要跟院長說你們因為政治上的鬥爭一直在延遲整個的我們因應美國貿易戰特別條例我們的特別條例在7月15號就在立法院三讀通過8月1號總統府就公告如果你們不這樣折騰來折騰去一直在東搞西搞現在又搞一個特別條例"},{"start":23362.628,"end":23370.454,"text":"搞來特別條例接下來就要送特別預算了對不對是這時辰有沒有延當"},{"start":23371.598,"end":23393.232,"text":"我們在特別條例通過的時候我們這時候談判正到最後的關頭我們也很希望在談判底定的時候是不是對特別條例內容要再做有所調整所以保留了一點彈性即使到現在為止談判的最後決定還沒有出現20%是暫時性關稅所以你自己都發現你站不住腳"},{"start":23393.772,"end":23414.647,"text":"因為你們自己說這是暫時性如果百分之二是暫時性你現在即便通過來的特別條例更不要說你們還沒有告訴我們有多少市場要開放還有美國多少的產品過來關稅要降低甚至是零關稅我們通通不知道一樣蝦子摸象一樣摸石頭過河"},{"start":23415.989,"end":23424.968,"text":"那在這個狀況之下你們一直遲延延遲又把特別條例送過來我再審你特別預算所以啊 院長"},{"start":23426.328,"end":23453.633,"text":"我老實說你們是不是多此一舉啊不是8月1號行政院行政效率之低下就來自8月1號20%的特別的暫時性關稅才宣布出來8月7號開始執行那我們為了說暫時性關稅能夠延續多久還保留一個彈性所以我們在預算特別條例的修正案當中提出的第二期200億的保留我們有做這樣的彈性運用請委員支持"},{"start":23454.639,"end":23474.429,"text":"我們其實有關於產業資源的部分我們都會支持所以我們當時第一時間你們從880億提高到930億我們都說無條件支持你們只是為了一個普巴現金因為這樣卡卡卡我有講過蘇貞昌院長當時普巴現金當時112年2月21號特別條例三讀然後當天總統府就公佈"},{"start":23483.513,"end":23505.168,"text":"即使如此特別預算搞了一個月才過來才三讀通過在那個時候特別條例經總統府公告然後特別預算也到一個月才通過但是那時候蘇貞昌院長算是他是有效率的所以我要在這邊講就是因為你們花了"},{"start":23521.002,"end":23523.383,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長貝勛 謝謝"},{"start":23541.727,"end":23551.93,"text":"院長喝水喝完水我就會好謝謝我們接下來請蔡宇委員質詢賴思寶委員請準備謝謝院長那我們是不是有請卓院長以及我們法務部部長麻煩再請卓院長法務部備詢"},{"start":23577.913,"end":23582.516,"text":"院長好因為今天的專報是針對打擊詐騙我們針對打詐2.0執行的成效事實上我們也都看到了詐騙尤其是在投資詐騙"},{"start":23597.205,"end":23622.299,"text":"大概是現在說這個詐欺犯罪裡面佔了65%強而且台灣的2025有一份民調說有超過72%的人他們表示他們都遭遇過詐騙當然每一個人是否會被詐騙當然又看他每一個人會遇到不同的情境但是大家都很擔心自己遭受詐騙那以及確實"},{"start":23623.84,"end":23637.018,"text":"最近因為詐騙然後他可能一輩子的積蓄被騙走造成他沒辦法在之後維持生計甚至有很多我們看到我們很不想看到的一些新聞的一個事件就因此而發生"},{"start":23637.659,"end":23666.431,"text":"所以這個打炸這件事我覺得在我們整個行政團隊來說一定是一個很重要的任務所以我相信院長部長在場每一位我們每一位行政團隊的長官甚至到最基層的員警大家都很認真在打炸這個我都相信但是在這麼認真打炸的時候為什麼我們還是沒辦法真正有效的遏止打炸呢"},{"start":23667.403,"end":23683.308,"text":"院長我想聽聽看大概這段時間我們的努力來跟我們遇到的一些瓶頸是什麼首先第一個就是每個禮拜行政院政務委員的會議林明星政委都會就那一週整個詐騙案件的案件數跟金額"},{"start":23684.517,"end":23698.092,"text":"來做分析跟比較來報告給所有的政務委員了解我們在那邊共同討論這也印證剛剛委員所說的大家實在是很用心在這一塊上面但是打炸的事情是當我們有新的方式出現"},{"start":23699.84,"end":23721.978,"text":"詐騙集團也是吹塵出心手段翻新他們的方式也一直在改變而且利用數位化的科技而且用境外的方式而且用不同的年輕族群去從事一些比較低階的詐騙的車手工作讓我們實在是在這個整個唯獨網上產生了相當大工作的能量"},{"start":23722.658,"end":23748.05,"text":"這個都是詐騙集團一直發生的從他們鎖定各種不同的特定族群來施以這種從語言方式各方面來加以引誘所以我們要找出潛在的這些被害人加以分析提前告訴他們所以我們從市詐 房詐 城詐 賭詐一直到城詐各方面都分別了很多的工作在做這是我們現在在做的當然有所不及而且我們要大力的趕上"},{"start":23748.61,"end":23770.664,"text":"那現在法務部也透過打詐釋法再透過跟司法院要將新釋法當中尚有不及之處再把它加強包括刑度包括整個刑法的太陽等等還有包括陳紹共犯等等都把它結合在一起這個是我們目前在努力的我知道努力的方向還不夠深遠但是我們都把方向給找出來"},{"start":23771.704,"end":23799.497,"text":"所以院長就像我講的剛聽你這一段就如同我講的我相信行政院非常努力一定要把打詐這一塊做出成效給國人看但是看起來就是這些詐騙集團他們有利可圖所以他們就窮盡一些方法甚至說他們只要人在國外然後他們把他們的一些IP都移到國外去會造成我們很多在追查犯罪的時候會產生斷點這件事情就很麻煩"},{"start":23800.584,"end":23817.022,"text":"所以我們現在看到的就是說我們還是在過去我們打詐可能都比較站在加害人就是要詐騙的人我覺得我們有時候要轉一下轉著就說我們要回到被害人到底被害人為什麼被詐騙"},{"start":23818.696,"end":23839.993,"text":"所以從第一步 第一步是什麼就是他怎麼接觸到詐騙的人那現在看起來詐騙的人最常用的就是透過社群媒體包括我們的臉書包括IG啦 翠啦甚至後來就把他們引誘到一個LINE的一個群組裡面結果這個群組裡面全部都是在騙他的他自己不知道"},{"start":23840.934,"end":23860.906,"text":"他就陷入了一個被詐騙然後投資詐騙往往越投資越多而且他的方式以前是直接叫你投資他直接誘使你投資甚至他早期還跟你一點矛頭小弟現在可能是先送你一個東西送你一本書 送你一個什麼讓你引誘你你進來之後慢慢很多人在旁邊圍攻你讓你以為這個群"},{"start":23862.427,"end":23883.469,"text":"這個環境裡面是大家都在投資這個正常的行為結果只有你一個是被害人其他都是假的所以我在這個情境之下我想要請教部長或者是我們速發部就是說在這種情境之下假如我們最常用的我覺得以前最常用的一個辦案技巧就是"},{"start":23884.807,"end":23902.173,"text":"有一點叫做這個叫釣魚就是說我事實上跳進去我就是要我就是要破獲這樣的一個集團但是我進去後比如我進入這樣一個LINE的一個群組後我有辦法因為在這個群組裡面然後把他們後面整批人揪出來嗎依現在的科技我們做得到嗎"},{"start":23905.371,"end":23925.529,"text":"謝謝那個委員我想我們現在檢警調對這一種的包括電信網路的一個擦漆像這一種的在網路上我們有那個警察巡我們有巡邏我們有那個各大系統就負責是看來一個社群網站社群的一個軟體媒體我們都有在做一個巡邏都沒有分工"},{"start":23926.329,"end":23940.183,"text":"有巡邏但是我們如果已經巡邏到我們已經進入了好我們先看到一個假的臉書的一個訊息讓我們接觸到然後他就跟我們開始我們跟他對話對話完他叫我們加入進入這個LINE的一個群組"},{"start":23941.324,"end":23967.655,"text":"我都進去了 那我抓得到他嗎我想這個每個個案都不同其實從這個網路上我們可以試著去抓得到我也知道這個成功率不是那麼大這很辛苦我們這部分最好是用即時的一個下架我想這部分整個一個速發部這部分會跟社群軟體的一個公司他們業者再做一個下架的通知部長 下架是一塊事實上我也就是要問速發部"},{"start":23968.815,"end":23992.856,"text":"那既然就是有這樣的一個群組那既然這個群組他一定有一個他的末端那這個末端的人我們沒辦法掌握嗎報告委員通常做法是這樣我們最好是希望在源頭就在他在廣告登出來的時候這個詐騙廣告我們就能夠發現把它下架所以不要讓民眾進入這個詐騙廣告再進入私人群組因為一旦進入私人群組要抓就比較困難"},{"start":23993.476,"end":24018.013,"text":"所以在源頭我們用AI用網路詐騙通報查詢網去發現詐騙廣告目前我們用這種方式已經使得投資詐騙廣告下降了九成九也就是說過去一個月七萬八千多件現在剩下七百多件OK 但是速發部我想我要跟部長說的就是說你請他下架但是民眾是覺得說既然有源頭為什麼抓不到"},{"start":24019.58,"end":24041.998,"text":"跟委員報告 他有下單啊 他有去買廣告啊我想這個是全方位的 委員關心的這是一個查緝的一個方向那我想很多的切入口 包括我們洗錢的那一部分譬如說我們現在臺灣檢署 各地檢署我們現在也跟那個金融機構金融去簽MOU那這個簽MOU就是從那個可疑帳戶的資金往來"},{"start":24042.718,"end":24066.894,"text":"去勾肌用大數據AI的分析去勾肌出來所以我們最近有謝文給我今天這個機會講就譬如說台北地球有一個斬金專案也就是一個郵局提供的這個可疑帳戶而破獲了一個非常龐大的一個詐團那這個被害人高達五千多個那這個被騙金高達一百五十幾億那這個壓了五十幾個人"},{"start":24068.315,"end":24081.972,"text":"所以這一件就有一個非常的棒的另外台中地檢也有透過土地營養提供的可依帳戶的這些來勾結出來的用帳戶來抓來勾結這件事很重要這個是MOU的對 部長因為我時間有限我有設定幾個問題所以我沒辦法給你我們就知道說從"},{"start":24087.618,"end":24111.784,"text":"這個社群媒體來揪出詐團這是一個方式第二個就是說因為事實上今天好多委員都有去講到我們訂了這個詐欺犯罪的一個防治條例47條你只要繳交犯罪所得的話你可以減薪執行那過去就變得說很多法院他們在認定上他們認為繳交犯罪所得是以他的報酬"},{"start":24113.504,"end":24141.604,"text":"那我舉一個例子啦 我現在就舉一個例子假如有詐騙集團騙了對我騙了一千萬我被詐騙集團騙了一千萬那車手勒就是我拿 但是我被騙一千萬是好幾次其中一個車手其中一個車手從我這裡經手了一百萬我一百萬給他那這個車手跟詐團拿到了十萬塊"},{"start":24143.098,"end":24160.084,"text":"我想請教部長部長這讓你回答那這一個車手他是要繳交10萬塊100萬還是1000萬他就可以試用47條所以這個是非常不合理所以這次那個最高法院那個刑事大法院他是採用個人的報酬說就10萬塊"},{"start":24161.414,"end":24180.504,"text":"事實上他被騙的金額那個被害人被騙的說明就是一千萬甚至是一億所以我們認為是要以被害人的損害而說交出的部長我看起來最高法院大法庭還是這樣過去的法官他就用十萬塊少數幾個他是用少數的他是用十萬塊這個大法庭是把他拉到了一百萬"},{"start":24181.545,"end":24202.695,"text":"就是以這個車手他經手的大法庭是少數說是個人報酬說個人報酬是十萬塊有的法官是會用一百萬有的法官會用一百萬就是以這個車手實際處理的所以我們最近有提出修法我們認為還是要站在被害人的觀點他的損失是一千萬"},{"start":24203.916,"end":24214.171,"text":"他的損失是1000萬所以他應該要負責這1000萬來換取他的減刑但是我覺得這個就是會卡在說這個車手到底實際上支出了什麼"},{"start":24217.075,"end":24241.447,"text":"車手實際獲得什麼所以我在講這個就是說我們要站在被害人的觀點去思考這件事情所以我在舉很多個案很多個案的一個產生因為我遇到了很多來跟我說曾經他遇到詐騙警察我請他去警察提告他也去提告了他就是真的去警局提告了過了兩個月後他接到一個不起訴書"},{"start":24243.305,"end":24260.738,"text":"人非常的沮喪說我被詐騙我去提告去提告誰去提告那個假帳號的提供人結果後來是不起訴書我把這個不起訴書列出列出來了他不起訴的原因是什麼他說因為你告這個詐騙這個帳號的提供人他這個帳號騙了好幾個人前面的人已經告了"},{"start":24271.304,"end":24289.198,"text":"前面的人 前面被害者已經告了你在後面告前面那部分已經告了也判完了所以你跟他是一個行為他是同一個提供帳號的行為所以你後面去告你就變成拿到不起訴書部長你覺得這件事合理嗎"},{"start":24291.089,"end":24312.59,"text":"這是洗錢方式吧他那個提供的那個165提供的那個現在是提供那個是在21條吧應該是在洗錢法21條的一個事情最近一個修法就是要提供三次最早的時候現在修法就是要因為現在其實沒有修法之前因為地檢署可能大部分檢察官就是認為他這個是"},{"start":24315.692,"end":24340.418,"text":"沒辦法證明他直接的故意所以會不起訴書書員如果其實檢察官檢察官是跟他說因為是同一行為啦因為他就一個提供賬號行為嘛然後有十個人受騙嘛那前面的部分因為九個人有去提告已經判完了他也已經在關了所以你是後面去告的人你是後面去告的人所以你這個已經被前面已經判完了你後面去告他就給你一個不起訴書那這件事影響到了什麼"},{"start":24341.318,"end":24361.095,"text":"這件事還有後續因為我就跟他說好 沒關係你至少要告民事對 那個民事是有184的你至少要告民事就侵權行為嘛你至少民事你要取得對他的一個債權憑證未來你還是可以把追索回來嘛結果他就去適用了詐欺犯罪第54條第54條說如果你因為詐欺你請求損害賠償的時候你可以暫免繳償判費"},{"start":24366.099,"end":24393.402,"text":"結果法院呢 這個法院的一個民事裁定說 抱歉 因為你之前那一份是不起訴書所以你不是用免繳裁判費 部長你會覺得這樣聽聽就 哇 這很不準怎麼會這樣 一個被詐騙的被害人 他去尋求他的司法救濟的時候 層層受阻啦很不準所以部長 報告委員 行政院實在不應該對個案的"},{"start":24395.838,"end":24418.451,"text":"起訴不起訴或判決來多加揣測的意見但是我是希望這樣的意見能夠讓司法院能夠理解怎麼樣幫助行政院來完成打詐行為司法院應該要再退一把手因為我各自都把它蓋住了但是這個不是只有這一個個案是這樣的狀況的情況之下法院的統一的做法會採取這樣"},{"start":24419.952,"end":24437.287,"text":"所以我們今天我覺得我們在這裡我們除了去講說現在台灣打詐的問題很嚴重我覺得這樣是不夠的因為我們這裡代表立法院你們是行政機關我們應該要立更多法律出來對這個打詐有實際的一個效果"},{"start":24438.391,"end":24464.456,"text":"這是我們的責任我現在再講一個例子以被害人來出發的話我們看現在有很多破獲的說包括第三方支付他可能涉及幫打詐洗錢最近破獲好多那也因為從第三方支付抓到金流了也知道詐騙集團的部分人是誰了抓到這些部分人了那行政機關法務部有告知這些被害人"},{"start":24465.316,"end":24482.725,"text":"告訴任何一個人說你的這個案件我抓到源頭了有告訴他們嗎沒有這就是我覺得我們做的不好的地方應該要告訴他們因為他們之後還有來民事求償的這個權利我們至少這一塊既然他都跟我們來提出"},{"start":24503.877,"end":24505.439,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員的質詢 謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":24523.384,"end":24540.011,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請賴世寶委員執行 李昆成委員請準備謝謝主席 韓院長 我們有請我們的卓院長以及內政部的部長麻煩請卓院長內政部備詢"},{"start":24552.369,"end":24579.183,"text":"代委好院長好 兩位長官好我不知道你今天的報告這個是哪一位的幕僚幫你寫的這個報告叫做睜眼說瞎話 你知道吧你看到第四頁我也接了一段你們寫了說損失金額每月減少五億元但是從今年的二月"},{"start":24580.423,"end":24605.232,"text":"3月4月一路攀升一路攀升你怎麼好小意思講說每月減少5億這是睜眼說瞎話我們也要你回答你先不要回答不要急那麼我們來看按照這個來推估不是推估事實上是如此一年我們的被詐騙的金額高達1000億高達1000億是多我為了這個事情開過兩次公聽會"},{"start":24607.369,"end":24630.002,"text":"我幾乎我的辦公室啊幾乎每個禮拜一定有好幾件被炸的有老師 退休的老師有退休的公務員來一邊講一邊哭啊哎呀我這個開公聽會的時候找那個當事人來他講講就哭起來了七十幾歲他的所有的積蓄一千萬都沒了"},{"start":24630.933,"end":24657.825,"text":"都不去啊然後呢 那時候我找了內政部的警政署相關的長官來那個長官非常的認真跟他說這個報告這個老師你這個錢大概要不回來了欸 多殘酷啊我們找長官來欸警政署長官來就告訴他沒有希望 為什麼平均如果真的能破 不一定能破能破大概一年拿回來多少 10%"},{"start":24660.029,"end":24670.488,"text":"拿回來這是最樂觀的最樂觀的就是一年能夠破案因為他立案就要一個月到三個月的時間然後再開始調查什麼之類的"},{"start":24673.013,"end":24695.598,"text":"真的 台灣很可憐的啦我們的打詐金額 預算越變越多打詐指揮中心 人員也都給你們愛人給你們 愛錢給你們結果我們的結果是這樣就是每一次人家跟我講的時候我心裡都好難過 我說我能做什麼我跟立法委能做什麼好了 最近又看到一個 也是要跟我們澄清"},{"start":24697.635,"end":24722.39,"text":"錢沒有很多 可是我心裡也很痛他說 通知他 你電費少交了請你補49塊錢 台幣49他就點進去 49 進去以後就進去了好了 扣款扣多少 38000這是千真萬確的事實我的鄉民服務案 如果你要我都可以給你看"},{"start":24724.004,"end":24749.546,"text":"怎麼會這個樣子他叫我說我少交了四十幾塊錢結果一扣扣三萬八這就是詐騙集團這就是我們各自全部都洩露院長你知道嗎台灣的我們所有的人包括你我在內包括韓院長包括所有的部委首長"},{"start":24750.871,"end":24775.118,"text":"每一個人的個資通通在網上可以被交易總共多少錢你知道嗎全台灣2300萬人金額多少錢2300萬人的個資賣5000塊美金賣5000塊美金這是我們目前的狀況目前的狀況是這個樣子我們裡面有寫到院長"},{"start":24777.645,"end":24800.166,"text":"你們今天說的這本報告多少賭多少賭我們也不要在這裡口舌啦我當然我知道你回答很多你也不滿意 這個態度對可是我們希望要見其理及啦針對問題 我們來看比較客觀給你打分數 check GPT他幫你打分數啦"},{"start":24802.001,"end":24828.499,"text":"落實性給你5分啦25分裡面給5分啦等於100分的話就是給多少?給20分而已可衡量性10分而已創新性15分條理完整啦作文比賽你們25分得滿分 你看到?你這切的GPT對你不錯欸說你很好作文你很好作文欸但是你看喔"},{"start":24829.184,"end":24842.972,"text":"我告訴委員 我不會以60分為滿意我需要更高 我們要努力我不會以60分為滿意 我要更高我要更高 不會以60分為滿意我希望我們一起努力"},{"start":24845.423,"end":24869.261,"text":"好 這個兩位長官你們真的我是在第一線的我第一線的明帶這種案子實在太多了幾乎每個禮拜都有有時候這個禮拜多一點有時候這個禮拜少一點幾乎都有 心裡很痛啊因為來的幾乎都是退休的幾乎都是退休的他說 有的參加投資投資 現在投資最多"},{"start":24870.86,"end":24894.999,"text":"都跟一件事情有關係 洩露個資來 我們來看我們那個書發部的長官也可以一起來這是審計部的報告 請看這個page審計部的報告我們打詐是不是應該有一個統一的窗口你現在看喔書發部編113年編了網路詐騙通報查詢網"},{"start":24901.454,"end":24907.276,"text":"通報查詢網設計一個APP系統開發跟維護維運的預算1350萬114年平台維運5800多萬"},{"start":24917.415,"end":24934.742,"text":"我們165大家都知道啊 打電話詐騙了165打165165這個警政署這邊編了110萬可是呢 舉報的功能反詐騙平台編了1219萬老實講 這兩個是重組的報告委員你聽不聽得懂 不要急 不要急部長是說這數據有誤5月15號 蘇華部的正式上線結果通報只有幾筆你知道嗎 4000筆"},{"start":24945.391,"end":24951.356,"text":"4000筆 不止 不止 絕對不止我就查了 這個是審計部的報告審計部的報告"},{"start":24954.872,"end":24977.815,"text":"我以上的資料都是審計部的審計部跟你查的 這很有公信力的什麼都不知 你不能夠以你的那種感覺來 我就請教院長 索巴部的黃部長先不要讓你講話來 院長你這個能不能整合一下能不能整合一下 你不要 這兩個都一樣啊有什麼不一樣 重複的重複啊 我預算所以錢這樣子亂花一通"},{"start":24979.176,"end":24981.338,"text":"我們今年才上線 審計部應該沒有最新的資料"},{"start":25002.496,"end":25010.762,"text":"審計部的資料就114年這是我家進來的113年是審計部的資料114年是我的那審計部就是審計部的重點所以這兩個應該要結合我就告訴你這一點審計部的報告"},{"start":25016.581,"end":25033.932,"text":"報告委員我們現在下架的數目超過3萬就是說下架的數目所以這個數字是有嚴重錯誤他原來一上去5月15號我現在跟你講5月15號我不是講現在我跟你講5月15號5月15號我要跟你強調就是現在老實講老百姓習慣165老百姓習慣165"},{"start":25037.934,"end":25046.301,"text":"所以我覺得這次是假的我們蘇華部的黃部長請你回去我們再請衛福部的長官時間請暫停一下請衛福部備詢邱部長內政部的劉部長要可以先請回"},{"start":25070.627,"end":25096.233,"text":"今天啦我特別講一個東西啊資料外洩我們有民安有網暗網有社群通訊軟體然後呢馬街醫院二零二五年的今年的三月他的資料外洩那時候我就去問給你們喔給你們喔給衛福部喔立法委員賴司法辦公室去問給你"},{"start":25097.608,"end":25125.279,"text":"你們給我回答的是什麼你們給我回答的是說這是暗網 這不是暗網 這是明網這是明網 這不是暗網然後今天最新的 今天剛出來的台灣阿鼻喉頭頸外科醫學會各自全部結論院長 你知道吧我們每一個人 很多人"},{"start":25126.874,"end":25150.324,"text":"以我為例 我就常常接到這個電話也不是電話 簡訊簡訊就告訴我什麼地方可以投資你要投資嗎 什麼投資平台加入什麼社 什麼投資社好了 那我就想 他怎麼有我的電話他怎麼有我的電話我隨便一問 每一個人都有類似這樣的遭遇"},{"start":25151.297,"end":25174.737,"text":"我們的個資洩漏的非常的嚴重所以今天來講的話可以這麼講我今天要打砸怎麼樣防止個資的外洩是非常重要的我剛才一開始我就講了我們五千塊美金可以把台灣所有每一個人的個資都拿到這個是昨天晚上我看到的資料那個邱部長"},{"start":25177.446,"end":25192.419,"text":"這個B喉外科醫學會這裡面就是每一個大醫生他的姓名 他的電話 他的住址通在裡面請部長回答一下 說明一下好 包委員"},{"start":25193.594,"end":25221.841,"text":"從今年3月我們開始發現醫院有相關的資安的一個資料的一個外線以後我們衛福部的資訊是馬上就召集我們所有的關鍵就是也就是急重症的醫院就是那個關鍵的醫院大概有二三十家我們就馬上來整個資安的一個部的一個檢視然後給他們一個SOP那除了這樣以後所以他們以後就"},{"start":25222.591,"end":25247.401,"text":"不會再發生這種情況那另外因為這樣的SOP台灣的醫院有幾百家所以也後來比較小型的醫院也希望他們也能夠有這樣的一個SOP所以我們也都布置下去了今天是鎖定衛福部鎖管的好多醫院都各自外洩的不會不會 現在都已經我們都已經有給他們SOP新光也有啊 對不對沒有我現在問你喔"},{"start":25249.033,"end":25264.16,"text":"那醫學會來講會比較因為醫學會還沒有列管到我們的這個好像醫療機構一樣他只是會員的資料不是病人的資料所以這個部分我們會來了解請問你對於現在醫院的治安有沒有做一些輔導"},{"start":25270.146,"end":25298.898,"text":"對醫院的治安我們有進行輔導當然我們從三月以後就我們已經給非常嚴格的用最高規格的來對三十家這種大型的醫院我們已經給他最嚴格的治安的指導然後接下來又把這個SOP做法給所有的醫院去遵照因為有些醫院沒辦法有那麼多資源來建造來建構這樣的一個治安網你要指導怎麼樣去"},{"start":25299.873,"end":25322.442,"text":"我有一句話 我們對醫院 對銀行 對電信公司 對護證所我們都展開這樣的 因為掌握了這個趨勢了各自的保護 針對這幾個機關你們要不要要求醫院設資安長這樣的一個作法 我想各個醫院都一定有資安的一個體系 一個主任銀行有資安長 但是醫院沒有"},{"start":25327.594,"end":25353.987,"text":"我們公立的各部會以及我們機關我們都設有資安長醫院沒有資安長如果沒有的話我們會請他能夠補上因為資安長確實在保護個資上面是需要的一定有資訊室主任但是資安長他的一個設立跟定位我們趕快來研議看看能不能配合整個政府的組織來一同步那個蘇華部的長官可以再一起來"},{"start":25355.326,"end":25381.07,"text":"這個最後一小題麻煩再請速發部備選那個邱部長可以請回謝謝我們都知道現在的詐騙變成是跨國性的那麼連結國際打擊假帳號我們跟Meta或者Google Line合作阻斷詐騙的廣告具體的規範跟KPI有沒有來請教"},{"start":25381.778,"end":25400.279,"text":"自從炸房條例通過之後我們是定期密集的跟這四大平台網路廣告平台商有開會後來我們要求兩個基本要做到一個就是實名制一個就是他們收到所謂的下架的公文要在24小時內廣告下架這個他們"},{"start":25401.857,"end":25416.583,"text":"我們就執行段時間以後發現Meta沒有做到所以我們已經罰過他兩次1600萬什麼時候可以全部做到我們現在就邀請現在就要全部做到但是現在沒有全部做到現在我們就是定期在查驗什麼時候可以"},{"start":25419.145,"end":25444.559,"text":"他們只要沒有做到我們馬上開罰所以現在我們還在檢查所以目前是這樣子現在其實對於詐騙的廣告其實可以RPG不是可以封嗎RPG是一頁式網站一頁式網站就是說如果是一頁式網站我們如果查到的話我們會進行所謂RPG把它遮蔽但是對Facebook"},{"start":25445.014,"end":25465.021,"text":"對Google這種公司你不可能把它全部遮蔽所以你只能要求它下架某些有問題的廣告所以對這次公司我們做法是用發文去要求它下降有問題的網頁 有問題的廣告這是我們目前的目的好 謝謝賴世保委員的資訊謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長貝馨 謝謝"},{"start":25478.066,"end":25500.584,"text":"好 接下來我們請李坤澄委員請質詢楊瓊英委員請準備謝謝主席 我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":25510.305,"end":25528.058,"text":"林委員好院長好 辛苦了今天早上也聽到院長在講就是說你也認為說這個國人也不一定會滿意打炸的進度派你給政府多一點時間這是左院長早上的反應其實我在民間也有聽到"},{"start":25529.159,"end":25552.148,"text":"大家對於說這個打詐雖然政府有在努力在做但是還是有一些疑慮就民間的一些反應我來跟部長來請教一下第一個 為什麼打詐會越來越多呢第二個 被騙的人為什麼都被判那麼輕呢第三個 被詐騙的錢能不能追回來大概這三項能不能請院長先簡短的答覆一下"},{"start":25553.217,"end":25581.49,"text":"因為對詐騙集團來講第一個他有利可圖他後面一定是一個幫派一個組織所以是大規模的在從事另外手法不斷的翻新再來就跟境外的合作經常把他的基地台等等可是我們有打詐釋法了為什麼會派的還是派那麼近對境外的部分我們還要跨境的合作雖然有一些合作但是我想速度跟這個數目上遠遠不及這個才是越來"},{"start":25582.21,"end":25598.481,"text":"打詐的這個集團越來越猖狂的一個原因那怎麼辦我們法令也給行政院也送來立法院也通過了所以我們說的我們希望從市詐開始讓人民知道說什麼是有陷阱的什麼是你不應該加入的用這個方式來阻絕源頭"},{"start":25599.962,"end":25613.479,"text":"再來就是把從市帳 房帳 主帳 整帳各方面一路的下來如果只是用抓的 抓不勝抓抓當然是最後端了啦我先請教一下這一個院長"},{"start":25614.84,"end":25639.233,"text":"第一個就是有關165 165很辛苦早上也有同仁有問過就是說165現在有50名的工作人員然後平均每一天要接到1200通到1500通的電話請教一下院長在它法制化之前能不能優化補它的人力讓我們最前線的我們同仁不用這麼的辛苦"},{"start":25640.369,"end":25663.817,"text":"謝謝李委員關心第一線工作人員確實值得需要鼓勵我多次去到165中心看他們在接電話第一個要非常有耐心第一個要非常極致的反映出對方來的詢問問題能夠給他解答第三個要能夠告訴他後續應該有些什麼救濟的行為對一個專業訓練來看是非常非常現在是50門50個嗎47"},{"start":25667.099,"end":25683.09,"text":"47 人力夠不夠我想以現在的量來講 他們都很辛苦還是會按照 他們是從哪邊調過來的寶一 寶一調過來的我們去的時候還希望他增加外語的人力跟語言能力 短時間這人力能不能增加"},{"start":25684.969,"end":25709.597,"text":"人力當然是可以增加但是我想李委員可能會希望我們能夠在科技上面譬如說我們要導入AI的系統或者導入這個圈存電子化或者是系統性的上限而不是像以前好像街市化一通一通填寫這樣子這樣可以減輕第一線同仁的負擔等於優化對 優化這個優化在科技面上面我們已經開始補充人力跟優化這個能不能做到"},{"start":25710.477,"end":25730.807,"text":"當然沒有問題 但是還有一個就是讓它法制化那有沒有一個期程短期間我們先補充人力先優化長時間法制化同時我們從7月開始的時候也會提供獎金按照他們的程度提供2000到1萬元預計短期要補到多少人你們認為現在他們輪調是沒有太大問題太辛苦了"},{"start":25735.049,"end":25749.816,"text":"委員一再來提醒說因為每一次接電話都耗盡很多的心神而且心理的壓力也會很大所以今天早上委員在提醒的時候就是說要給他們做一些心理諮商的協助跟支持這一點我們已經馬上交辦了沒有問題"},{"start":25750.856,"end":25775.637,"text":"我也認為院長這邊能力我覺得短時間在增加這47名可以說是精英他們這樣子每天24小時也不斷電在服務我認為說第一個當然就是身心雙方我們要稍微注意一下第二個就是說能夠增加能力就增加能力讓他們不至於這麼的疲憊好不好謝謝委員關心我請內政部就短期的委員所講的短期的部分你訂一個計畫我們來進行核定"},{"start":25777.659,"end":25796.309,"text":"好 那再請教一下這個院長高齡詐騙的問題因為我們現在進入高齡化了那部長可以先請問進入這個高齡化了那大家也知道說現在高齡化的長者他們可能現在有錢也有錢但是這也容易成為詐騙集團他所覬覦的對象"},{"start":25797.47,"end":25816.006,"text":"其實在日本他們其實有在去年有公告一個保護國民免受詐騙的綜合對策他其實有針對這個是高齡化的比如說推動跟金融機構合作針對長期未使用ATM轉帳功能的高齡客戶然後就是限制他的金額或是說銀髮族家用電話安裝防騷擾的裝備或是說我們能不能"},{"start":25824.252,"end":25847.521,"text":"讓長者在領錢的時候稍微增加他的不方便性因為我知道說在這個比如說在保單這方面就是說他們有設計就是說那你如果是長者要來解約這個保單然後他們就問說那為什麼要解約甚至有多一個人就是說你必須要家裡的其他的人知道這件事情而且同意"},{"start":25848.581,"end":25872.2,"text":"這個長者才能去把保單做解約的過程我就想說我們對於高齡的長者這部分能不能多一些關懷然後多一些在法令上面給予他們協助因為其實在今年4月的時候我就跟林志傑教授一起來談到說有關於高齡財務風險管理不足的這部分這部分 彭主委你要先回應一下嗎"},{"start":25873.888,"end":25898.543,"text":"跟委員說明一下有關高齡剛才講說我們對於保單有解約金的這些註記的部分因為牽涉到法律我們已經請幾家公司他們已經開始跟客戶在做這個示範了在做這個我想就是高齡者他要解約必須要其他家人通知就是你要如果是要解除這個的話要通知這個就跟我們那個比如說我們的那個土地啊房屋要過戶那個是一樣的"},{"start":25899.383,"end":25921.007,"text":"那另外剛才講說對於ATM異常的部分我們已經納入全面的管控就是假設這個很久沒有領那我說有沒有特別針對長者因為我是在講說高齡化這部分高齡的風險其實我們對高齡化的這一部分一些的保護我們就是我們不是歧視但是我們需要多一些關心跟照顧這個就是我們現在正在做的"},{"start":25924.648,"end":25944.045,"text":"這樣有在做嗎 有你的方案是什麼 我怎麼不知道就剛才講 因為早上也有人問有關ATM管控的部分細節我不方便在這邊說但是我們已經針對各種異常的現象做一個全盤式的我覺得像日本那個我剛提到這個你們可以做一些參考就是說讓高齡者"},{"start":25945.011,"end":25963.166,"text":"他們要在做這個不管是提款或是說解約這方面的話多增加一些他的家人能夠關心他這件事情所以是我們現在在鼓勵他們往這個方向來走好 謝謝那我再請教一下院長早上結果這個同仁有問到"},{"start":25964.64,"end":25993.22,"text":"有一個是自稱是詐騙集團的車手然後他假設之後他高調分享他的詐騙還說自己的判決書可以當履歷表早上有播這個影片我聽政部長也說好像要去抓還是劉部長這個其實網路上都找得到他的編號 他的名字他司法判決書都找得到我不曉得說現在掌握的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":25994.446,"end":26005.057,"text":"報告委員我來補充一下好嗎這位姓廖現在已經被移送到雲林地檢署現在今天嗎13號然後他在8月9號的時候已經有將這個影片下架"},{"start":26011.764,"end":26026.359,"text":"所以現在在民眾流傳的部分應該不是是其他的部分這個在流傳的部分就之前拍的就對了他現在你說他現在已經對 那這位廖姓詐欺嫌犯的我是覺得囂張因為他總共被移送28次"},{"start":26028.15,"end":26054.927,"text":"這個就是問題為什麼可以移送到28次然後他繼續出來就是我要凸顯一下這幾個問題第一個對年輕人來講他覺得詐騙不是丟臉的事情他可以甚至拿來炫耀第二個剛才我提到的判得很輕因為他投資報酬率很高所以我們要修法我們防詐條例要修法包括禁車條款可能要放到裡面會比較好第三個就是說詐騙的金額高但是和解的金額很低"},{"start":26056.035,"end":26081.622,"text":"合解性很低啊然後輕易就能夠假釋啊那就是法令上不足的問題啊對 所以我們詐欺犯罪危害條例一定要修那現在其實在貴院的內政委員會其實也是在修法的這個研議當中那還包含這個法務部啊早上我也聽到這一個同仁有在提到啊現在就是說這一個你只要願意去跟受害者和解"},{"start":26082.674,"end":26101.157,"text":"那和解的金額不是你詐騙的金額啊是你我自己拿到了這個金額啊那結果就用這個金額去做和解了也都行得通耶那我們這部分是不是我們盡快來做這個修法那不然這樣子的話那對於這些詐騙集團來講代價太低了啊那對受害者來講 情何以堪啊"},{"start":26101.994,"end":26120.456,"text":"我了解的部分是法務部已經跟司法院他們在研議當中看怎麼樣從法治上面來解決這方面的問題跟委員報告法務部已經提出修正草案限定送行政院在審查中了那要徹底解決這個問題因為我們是有覺得這個是很不合理"},{"start":26121.87,"end":26145.624,"text":"這個非常的不合理因為當初立法的時候本來就是採全部的損害而說但是後來實際運作司法院的法院的作業他是採個人報酬說後來他是有不同有少數的採全部的損害說這個就是我相信很多立委也都有提案那現在就是我們等院版等院版看何時送來立法院院版就代表這個行政院的一個態度"},{"start":26148.284,"end":26175.402,"text":"他這部分在審查現在也在開審討會議請司法院來表示意見我想儘速的審完畢就送立法院來審議我覺得這個太誇張了光從早上大家在談的這個例子就凸顯了好幾個問題就大家覺得說你詐騙那幹部長你提到說他被抓了26次那26次又出來那為什麼大家會覺得說我回到我之前所講的為什麼現在都判得那麼輕"},{"start":26178.31,"end":26193.569,"text":"不過我們檢察官起訴的時候起訴的第一個起訴可能量刑就不重那結果到法官那邊判決法官跟委員報告那這部分的確是有量刑的的確是都大部分集中在一年到兩年之間那是外界的反應最好"},{"start":26195.006,"end":26210.724,"text":"現在我們有一個一個具體球型50條 炸白條50條具體球型我們在高檢測有一個球型的標準給檢考做一個參考我想他們可以來因為現在剛開始在做而已我想大概一定時間效果會出來"},{"start":26211.457,"end":26229.724,"text":"跟委員報告因為很多類似這樣的一個法律的修法法都必須跟司法院進行討論那我們也發現到當中無論是行度或者是速度以及他這個修法的過程的程序都有問題所以我已經拉高到由雙方的秘書長來進行交涉希望能夠把這個時程"},{"start":26231.765,"end":26249.421,"text":"趕快一點現在就是大概去年是這個時候這個打砸專法通過了現在一年其實就是說包含兩位部長院長都有提到說我們相關的法令這一年之後的確有許多要去做修改的譬如說第一個加重我們的犯罪的刑罰第二個強化"},{"start":26251.242,"end":26264.512,"text":"犯罪的被害的補償第三個研議犯罪禁捨的管制我覺得說一年這樣子下來之後大家發現說有這一些不足的地方我們也希望說行政院趕快來補這個漏洞好不好"},{"start":26265.285,"end":26286.503,"text":"好的 我們會請司法院一起配合我們會盡快來處理好 那這個你剛才提到這個市詐的部分我跟院長提供一個數字就是說現在在青少年的部分就是在19歲以下我們這個市詐欺的嫌疑犯人數每年都增加從111 112到113每年都增加然後這個車手"},{"start":26293.643,"end":26322.518,"text":"擔任這個車手是在12歲到17歲這個佔車手的比例高達六成就是說年輕人現在就是被抓起來當作車手裡面的大概有六成是屬於青少年的這是一個非常嚴重的問題這部分怎麼去做處理院長少年事件的處理我們跟司法院也在進行溝通當中還有教育部我覺得教育部也要來做處理就是說"},{"start":26323.322,"end":26341.09,"text":"第一個大家覺得說車手第一個就是量刑青現在很多詐騙集團也是找年輕人去當車手然後量刑青很容易就被假釋所以都是當年輕人用車手所以才會有部長你講提到說被抓了二十幾次然後就出來"},{"start":26342.043,"end":26360.552,"text":"這麼高調的拍影片這是一個問題我們在年輕人12歲到17歲裡面車手的嫌疑犯裡面竟然有六成都是年輕人然後有關煮炸的這部分"},{"start":26363.137,"end":26387.024,"text":"主帳 張款的這一個流項面現在就是說我們對於警示金融帳戶剩餘款項的返還這方面的速度我們是不是可以再加快一點因為各個案子它有不同的情節太陽所以它沒有辦法訂出一個一定的標準我們現在平均大概是多少時間"},{"start":26388.957,"end":26414.671,"text":"這個現在很難講一個平均的數字這個也是要請金管會有的會幾日就可以出 有的會比較長的時間要請金管會來研議這個警示金融帳戶剩餘款項的返還的進進作為我時間有限 最後再請教一下這個是應該是跟NCC有關的就是說有關於清查非國籍預付卡手機門號的情況"},{"start":26418.804,"end":26446.283,"text":"目前來看這個是比較應該是說到幾年級為止大概清查才清查兩百二十五萬才清查了一萬多這個我請院長要去推一下因為他們是說今年八月應該是今年年底會去清查一千百多萬我們請院長來介紹一下"},{"start":26448.971,"end":26474.563,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝李坤城委員的質詢謝謝主委院長相關部會首長備詢謝謝接下來我們楊瓊英委員質詢完畢之後我們會休息10分鐘休息完畢請林月琴委員準備我們接下來請楊瓊英委員請質詢"},{"start":26484.357,"end":26489.341,"text":"謝謝院會主席楊全雲發言首先來邀請卓院長再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":26501.734,"end":26524.145,"text":"根據官方打炸儀表板的統計我們在114年7月份的時候查獲的炸團有228團 1826人比6月份有少了4團 少了125人但是我們認為成效是有限的查購步伐的部分所得是4億"},{"start":26525.626,"end":26544.411,"text":"多將近5億當然比6月份少了一點點少了一成左右所以我們認為到目前為止我們的攬主金額雖然有到13億但是跟全國詐騙財損的部分85億以上還是差距很大"},{"start":26545.131,"end":26552.556,"text":"尤其我們從打詐儀錶板的上面來看歷史112年是89億 他是37,823件113年是502億 他的案件是122,805件"},{"start":26563.564,"end":26582.506,"text":"那114年今年的1月到7月份呢他總共有10萬件105310件他的金額是565億換句話說今年的上半年就等於是去年在打仗儀表板上面還更多一整年都更多的金額"},{"start":26583.547,"end":26601.595,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下縱使行政院相關單位告訴我們說是計算方式不一樣但是這個是政府公告的打造儀表版所以本席要再請教七月份裡頭我們看到到底是為什麼會有這樣的一個"},{"start":26602.475,"end":26627.533,"text":"社会现象产生7月份涉及网络媒体诈骗的我们当然也努力下架了很多但是诈骗的内容它仍旧在平台里头层出不穷换句话说显示政府你在行动方面我们还有很大的讨论空间也就是还没有有效的可以去压制这些的犯罪虚拟货币"},{"start":26629.079,"end":26645.155,"text":"這一個必傷的一個交易網路平台跟通訊軟體他認就是三不管地帶這三方如果沒有有效的來做管理那麼我們打架國家隊呢當然這個成績是得不到民眾"},{"start":26645.976,"end":26668.012,"text":"的一個信任的所以本席首先提出這樣子的一個背景背景給你也就是請教打詐國家隊的運作了將近一年那麼我們為什麼案件跟金額他是不減反增那麼跨境詐騙外交的跟司法的合作我們有什麼精進的方案請說明"},{"start":26669.344,"end":26687.654,"text":"我們剛剛說所謂統計數字的不同是從去年的8月之前跟8月之後依照它發生我們採取的太陽不同以前是以一個犯罪行為人一個案件來處理後來我們改變是一個犯罪行為人"},{"start":26688.494,"end":26709.395,"text":"騙了十個人就會有十個案件這樣的方式來處理所以數量會有所改變但是本席告訴跟卓院長分享你即使把一件或者是一件拆成十件這些的數字實際上我們民眾對於詐騙非常的恐慌所以我們討論這個數字是沒有意義的我們要聽到方案"},{"start":26709.895,"end":26736.588,"text":"跟聽到您的經濟我有提到說這是我們內控上一個考核的機制那剛剛你有說到網路平台啦通訊軟體啦以及這個虛擬貨幣我們在這個數位的網路平台上面現在我們已經要求這四大的平台Meta、IG、Google還有YouTube現在再加上Trade五個平台Trade在九月份也會要求它落地管理實名制這樣會有助於我們對於九月份是下個月嗎對對"},{"start":26738.812,"end":26766.551,"text":"其他都有了 全面四個都有了就是TRADE這個部分會在九月份要求他也要照我們新的打炸心法裡面所規定要在這裡落地失明 耐耐的時間請TRADE要在九月份的時候也要強制執行制他必須接受我們的管制那麼另外就是虛擬貨幣這個我們現在當然他的成效比較不明顯因為他到底是一個很新興的一個取代一個貨幣的一個行為但是接著我們這個金管會會從"},{"start":26768.569,"end":26782.857,"text":"貨幣發行幣商服務幣商的這個管理讓他成為一個工會讓他納入我們工會的管理之後納入工會的管理從根源來管理 是否這個解讀正確嗎納入工會的管理"},{"start":26784.08,"end":26802.409,"text":"從根本來解決我們會他成為一個工會讓他在裡面第一個是要自律第二我們用法律上來管理再請這個彭主任來做說明施保委我想剛剛有關那個虛擬資產的先跟委員說明一下我們那個專法在6月27號已經送進行政院在審議中現在已經在加緊審議中"},{"start":26803.63,"end":26827.038,"text":"在我們去年11月30號通過了登記制以後可以行者這部分是我們第一步的管理剛剛院長有提到我們組工會的部分我們把現在所謂的VASP就是虛擬資產業者的工會現在已經開始運作了像比如最近我們在5月的時候禁止他們限制交易請問你們這樣的方案要什麼時間可以承行因為民眾苦不堪言"},{"start":26827.918,"end":26854.257,"text":"其實我們現在的你們有方法給予肯定但是你要告訴我們答案你們一定有你們的KPI你什麼時候公會他可以成行我們政府可以管控去年已經成立已經開始運作像比如說在跟委員報告我們今天5月就看到現金交易的問題我們就直接把現金禁掉所以我們在這一部分我們把這個就做了很有效納管這是其中一個措施"},{"start":26854.957,"end":26865.146,"text":"接下來比如說我們對於所有的虛擬資產業者的管控我們從原來最高的26到現在的話我們大概只剩下14家因為對不合規的我們全部把它淘汰掉"},{"start":26866.82,"end":26887.531,"text":"院長您聽到你的單位主管說是非常有效的管控但是本席告訴你我們在坊間聽到的不一樣的一個方向所以本席剛剛所說的虛擬貨幣我們的幣商交易以及網路平台通訊軟體這三不管地帶你們必須要好好的去整"},{"start":26887.871,"end":26900.742,"text":"所以因此我要告訴你對守法合法的業者納入工會但是我們還有一些非常不守法的在網路世界數位率所以我們還要加強這個部分當然要加強這個部分當然要加強 怎麼加強呢"},{"start":26902.216,"end":26924.451,"text":"當然要加強 怎麼加強呢我們民眾苦不堪言你好好去經濟好不好也把時間點給我們好不好接下來我要告訴你因為在國家政策研究基金會裡頭給你的一個民調也就是在政府打詐司法跟青年方面44.8%的民眾是認為我們對於打擊詐騙是表示不滿的"},{"start":26929.714,"end":26955.36,"text":"其中還有一個更重要的因子也就是50到69歲的族群他是感受最深在這樣的情況之下本席要請教院長就是打詐的成效這個案件跟金額他是雙雙惡化所以民眾會恐慌所以本席要請教的就是說那打詐 詐團他有恃無恐"},{"start":26956.94,"end":26985.388,"text":"那你主謀消防法外 金流跟跨境的鏈結你沒有去把它破解那當然民眾是沒有辦法求償所以你們不斷地在宣導說所謂的市詐 賭詐 防詐 主詐 以及懲詐但到目前為止似乎它的成效是不足以去壓制這些犯罪者的行為所以在這邊本席要特別要告訴你一點也就是你跨部會"},{"start":26986.428,"end":26998.778,"text":"跨部會本來你們從打造辦公室然後改制為指揮中心從去年的8月27號你的指揮中心但是你跨部會的整合你滿意嗎院長你滿意嗎"},{"start":27001.38,"end":27023.466,"text":"他們逐步在推動是各種的事務逐步的在推動我們已經一年了人員的部分我們會適度的加強人員部分要適度加強表示你也不滿意提到剛剛法治化的問題也是我們現在在想的方式如何提升它的效率這是一年指揮中心正式成立一年之後院長你告訴我們的"},{"start":27024.366,"end":27040.264,"text":"我們也民眾是苦不堪言的情況之下我們希望政府有方法能夠保護民眾所以本席具體建議跨部會的協調是失靈的因為金管會 NCC 警政 移民 外交它各自為政嘛"},{"start":27040.825,"end":27060.02,"text":"他沒有共享資源沒有共享資訊所以他當然沒有辦法有一個美好的成果一個成效出來所以本席要特別請教未來在整個跨部會的一個綻合資源裡頭你要怎麼做我覺得本席希望聽到這個部分請說明"},{"start":27061.465,"end":27069.849,"text":"我們現在打造指揮中心有新的指揮官他全力的在做這些內部的管控問題那麼我們的165專線將來會做更多的"},{"start":27073.018,"end":27101.243,"text":"平行的整合如果我們有一天這個165跟打炸這個把它法制化之後會更進一步符合剛剛委員所說的165法制化什麼時候要法制化我們就朝這個方向什麼時候請教院長那剛剛我已經指示內政部盡快就近期的對這些人員的一些鼓勵方面近期擬定一個方法出來那麼把它法制化的過程現在也提出一個方式我們正在審議中正在考慮當中"},{"start":27101.906,"end":27116.173,"text":"正在考慮跟審議當中 你要盡快要盡快 你有沒有你的指標預計在什麼時候可以成行我已經指示內政部 請內政部盡快來提出一個方案內政部有時間點嗎可以告訴我們民眾嗎"},{"start":27118.142,"end":27134.352,"text":"我們不能讓這個空窗期這麼長啊不會 我知道大家都非常的殷切期盼所以我這個會請內政部儘速完成儘速完成所以現在沒有辦法時間告訴我們法制化必須要有一個過程所以你也把這個繳成"},{"start":27136.113,"end":27163.59,"text":"可以同步進行的 同步進行儘快告訴我們 儘快讓民眾可以安心我們拭目以待同時我要給院長說明打仗司法的時候包括了科技偵查當時我們不分藍綠白一起好好的幫助這個國家能夠讓人民安心所以甚至在整個科技偵查裡頭大家努力的協商終於也放在刑事訴訟法裡頭的專章裡頭"},{"start":27165.231,"end":27180.661,"text":"甚至本席所提案的我們的洗錢防治法15條之一之二也就是事先將這些你沒有理由的在收集這些帳號那你就要出動了我們用法讓執行者有所依歸有能夠有成效"},{"start":27181.381,"end":27197.802,"text":"這個是大家努力的能夠希望將這個成軍讓民眾可以安心可以打擊這些詐騙這是大家一起努力的我們一起努力通過這個打詐司法之後這個狀況稍微有一點穩住沒有這樣急需的變化變壞"},{"start":27198.703,"end":27227.526,"text":"院長你講這個就是你真的要加油因為打詐司法之前跟之後我告訴你我們被詐的數字金額是增加的所以你好好的去檢討這一塊接下來本席要告訴你也就是這個假釋的詐欺犯他能夠假釋出來詐騙了300萬他也約與你政府只苛扣了這個7200萬要賺錢的找我這可以嗎"},{"start":27229.563,"end":27257.055,"text":"請教這可以嗎這剛剛說這可以嗎已經移送雲林地檢數了這可以嗎在8月10幾號已經移送這個案子已經移送雲林當然這個行為絕對不可取行為不可取而且我們要杜絕就是要對這個案子速查速辦對他已經移送院長你這樣就對了速查速辦不可以這樣子囂張啊他已經移送了還可以如此的囂張揶揄你政府絕對不行"},{"start":27257.995,"end":27281.768,"text":"挑釁我們民眾 這不行的臺灣是一個溫暖的國家是一個安定的國家不容許如此 恕神恕敗 是不是再接下來假冒公務人員我們不斷的也要宣導但是剛才本席說到的50到69歲的人是對於打仗他不安心的"},{"start":27282.83,"end":27307.623,"text":"感受最深所以因此也有詐騙的他現在已經是高度的組織化了高度的組織化所以他鎖定什麼高年齡層所以政府對於我們這樣子的高年齡層你有什麼方案比如說本席提出的你的電信異常偵測還有你的家屬通知這個都必須在第一時間我們至少還可以防堵"},{"start":27308.533,"end":27332.745,"text":"院長對於高年齡層這麼受害你認為我們有什麼經濟方案我們對於青年退休的族群以及一些特定的族群我們都把它當作一個最容易受到詐騙的退休的族群我們把它當作一個最容易受到詐騙集團去引誘的一些對象所以我們用"},{"start":27333.906,"end":27348.154,"text":"科技的方式來分析把這些族群找出來之後我們現在已經是用至少用一些簡訊通知告訴他們有一些詐騙的行為要他們能夠知道這個陷阱你不要輕易的進入同時也對這些"},{"start":27349.074,"end":27363.824,"text":"行為的這個潛在的被害人我們透過AI的方式 科技的方式把他們找出來給他們施予更多的視乍的教育的都有這麼多的方式但是你的成效是不髒的這表示我們的方法還有精進的"},{"start":27365.025,"end":27384.197,"text":"這個空間絕對是所以本席具體建議您在下個會期請提出具體的防詐騙的政策目標明確的告知各部會你們的行政你們的行動分工到底要怎麼分工必須要明確讓"},{"start":27386.298,"end":27402.656,"text":"民眾對於我們檢警調以及我們的政府他是有信任的而且本期要求必須對於我們長者的宣導必須要擴大你能夠做得到嗎好的 我們會提出一套完整的方式我請內政部來主辦跟法務部來協辦好 謝謝謝謝楊承英委員資訊謝謝卓院長備詢"},{"start":27411.687,"end":27421.305,"text":"各位會員 非常感謝我們黃建豪委員 劉淑冰委員以及林月琴委員的下午專案報告一直陪同我們參與現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":28047.803,"end":28071.44,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請林月琴委員質詢黃建豪委員請準備主席麻煩我們的院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":28082.284,"end":28110.907,"text":"林委員好委員好 委員好事實上隨著我們的科技產品跟網路都改變了我們的生活的確現在詐騙已經是全球各國都面對到的問題台灣沒有更嚴重事實上也一樣跟國際一樣像日韓一樣人數跟金額都跟我們差不多可是我很肯定的是行政團隊一步一步的很扎實的在推進把打詐的這樣子的一個提升到2.0版"},{"start":28112.335,"end":28130.824,"text":"那從根本的政策去著手我今天看到報告也看到非常多的一個績效在不過當然我在這邊也要提醒一點什麼呢也就是聯合國在整理各國的這樣子一個詐騙的經驗的時候他特別強調我們要關注社會中的一個特別的弱勢族群"},{"start":28132.105,"end":28144.739,"text":"像在聯合國的線上兒童跟青少年安全的計畫裡邊他就特別提到說要保護弱勢的青少年免於網路詐騙的傷害所以今天就要在這邊跟院長一起來討論"},{"start":28146.841,"end":28162.024,"text":"來自市政府界也長期只在關心兒少在我們整個來看的話未成年跟青少年詐騙事實上是不太一樣的在受害的案件當中12到17事實上是受害類型以詐欺最多"},{"start":28162.564,"end":28190.614,"text":"的確在加害這一塊有犯罪這一塊也是涉入的詐欺案件當中有3124人10年當中涉嫌詐騙的少年已經事實上是暴增到4倍從民間的調查也顯示將近有4成的少年曾經遭遇過網路詐騙的陷阱也就是他變成是被害剛剛前面講的是加害"},{"start":28191.247,"end":28217.688,"text":"其中有兩層真的事實上是金錢的一些損失甚至個資外洩有三層是選擇隱忍不報院長麻煩可不可以要衛福部的部長麻煩衛福部準備選院長我今天要特別強調的是少年的詐騙議題不只是治安問題事實上是一個社福議題"},{"start":28218.53,"end":28241.837,"text":"所以在今天來院會要針對這個質詢之前我先問第一線的社工從他那邊收集到一些相關資料為什麼青少年他們會走偏除了家庭的教養因素以外很大的問題事實上是還是在經濟壓力這一塊那這些少年不只是要養活自己他還要養活的可能是他的弟弟妹妹之類的"},{"start":28243.533,"end":28267.627,"text":"在學歷低沒有專業技術的狀況下詐騙工作往往會成為他們一個最快能夠賺到錢的選擇所以簡報上的文字各位可以看一下也就是說這是真實的他們的一個反應也就是家裡只剩下爸爸工作那要養他還養弟弟妹妹還有一些支出甚至阿公阿嬤都要靠這個爸爸的收入養"},{"start":28268.188,"end":28295.838,"text":"甚至他才15歲他根本沒辦法找到工作可是他負擔家裡經濟的時候怎麼辦呢就會是讓這些孩子呢落入到風險裡面那在左邊來看的話我們的脆弱家庭的個案管理平台目前有8.9萬的少年事實上是脆弱家庭的那其中呢12到18歲佔了四分之一那就意味著有可能他們會暴露在詐騙的引誘風險當中所以想問部長這邊"},{"start":28298.163,"end":28320.923,"text":"在目前涉及到詐欺犯罪的少年當中有多少人是同時具有社會福利身份的我想那個比例我們再查一下那至於所以部長我是不是可以建議就是說相關部會是不是應該要把這個數據跨部會串聯如果"},{"start":28322.014,"end":28347.952,"text":"有詐騙的一個加害者甚至受害者那他的身份事實上是社會服務是比較能掌握所以我覺得未來事實上這個數據要串聯那針對這些少年個案後續的追蹤跟再犯比例是多少有掌握嗎我相信如果沒有比對的話事實上是很難掌握甚至有沒有針對這些個案做分析嚴厲相關的措施來避免他們再度落入到風險裡面"},{"start":28348.792,"end":28377.744,"text":"我覺得衛福部可能要針對這一塊能夠著一些力院長少年接觸到詐騙集團不論是受害還是被利用成共犯他們的路徑都跟成人不一樣他們事實上是一步一步的因為接觸到網路所以是透過朋友的TRADE跟IG跟私訊甚至是限動這些一個一個拉到聊天群組裡面最後被捲入違法銷售跟詐騙的一個"},{"start":28378.644,"end":28403.358,"text":"整個的供應鏈裡邊這兩張圖示上是社工提供給我的少年的一個社群的訊息內容大把鈔票 黑盤讀品在柬埔寨你可以過奢侈的生活 奢華的生活我相信這些訊息很難被定義廣告而受到限制所以院長可以麻煩我們的韓院長可以麻煩我要邀請我們的訴發部麻煩請訴發部備詢"},{"start":28408.254,"end":28436.286,"text":"我相信警政單位非常清楚少年進入到詐騙產業鏈的管道跟方法所以蘇發部的黃部長這邊想問因為依現行的網際網路內容管理基本規範那天去考察的時候也有問過你其中的虛實應對原則網路世界真的能有效管理這個訊息嗎部長看一下我們剛剛左邊的這張圖裡面它這個叫做類廣告"},{"start":28438.015,"end":28448.611,"text":"他是在IG耶那這算是可是你們對應的法規是要有拖播廣告拖播廣告就是要有人拖播可是這上面的圖是來自IG"},{"start":28449.161,"end":28473.011,"text":"那就不會變成是你們可以去阻擔所以我不知道我們的速發部怎麼去應對報告委員的確目前我們是對廣告就是說這個是廣告平台對廣告的刊登者或者是拖播者去做比如說實名制是 可是這要怎麼做處理因為它根本就是我們只能講它類廣告它不需要拖播它自己就放在IG裡面"},{"start":28473.531,"end":28496.223,"text":"放在限動裡面就可以讓青少年一步一步的落入到陷阱裡面了目前並不在我們關心但這個原因也是因為他這個如果是個人的這個所謂的帳號他的接觸就是他的群組的人所以部長這邊是不是應該也要去考慮我們在考慮但是這個確實那謝謝黃部長再麻煩接下來我們的內政部 部長麻煩請內政部備詢"},{"start":28500.467,"end":28519.496,"text":"在實體世界裡面這次我問了全台的雙北彰化嘉義花蓮縣市的社工他們都反映不只是宮廟事實上幫派組織也在吸收少年提供照顧歸屬感和跟經濟來源所以想問內政部全台社工都知道這些青少年在哪裡"},{"start":28520.58,"end":28541.23,"text":"那對我覺得要組織黑幫跟詐騙集團來吸收少年為下線人頭的時候有哪些積極的策略部長這邊是非常謝謝林委員關心尤其是來自脆弱家庭的部分那其實我們警政署在查查這些有關於青少年犯罪尤其是牽涉到詐騙的時候大概"},{"start":28541.81,"end":28556.327,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概百分之六十呢是淪為車手跟車手頭那百分之二十左右呢是自願性的人頭賬戶也就是剛剛林委員所說的因為他可能缺錢或者是因為他對金錢的觀念比較沒有那麼的成熟"},{"start":28557.048,"end":28577.908,"text":"那現在就是要如何來防止這個部分我們也提出來可能要跨部會譬如說請勞動部要能夠做青少年的就業跟職業的管道那抒發部也要下架這種違法打工的訊息還有請法務部要加強公布高額的賠償案例還有教育部也要透過教育系統來告知家長"},{"start":28578.969,"end":28608.195,"text":"最近因為開學在即內政部跟教育部其實共同寫了一封信給家長請他們留意一下就是他們的學生或是孩子要注意一下詐騙上的訊息我們把相關的案例寫在信件裡面後邊再麻煩部長再把這些相關策略再提供給我們院長第一線社工跟我講說我們雖然賺不過非法的那個就是非法詐騙可是每一個青少年並不想鋌而走險去做這些事情"},{"start":28608.871,"end":28620.525,"text":"可是對生活有壓力的是不是我們可以給他一個更好選擇在這邊真的還是要感謝這一個多月來我們的勞動部長跟衛福部部長跟我們全台的少年服務團體一起"},{"start":28621.072,"end":28648.056,"text":"已經在做討論了我覺得要給他們正常工作而不是落入到詐騙所以最後我們大概有幾個共識也就是少年就業政策不能夠用大人的角度來思考應該要知道他們跟成人不同第二個弱勢的孩子要有專門的方案不是用成人的方案和KPI硬塞在他們身上不過真正要做這些事情要跨部會所以院長你的角色就非常的重要因為現在已經事實上是衛福部跟勞動部已經"},{"start":28648.772,"end":28674.713,"text":"要開始要去啟動可是事實上還是有法務部還是有教育部因為今天青少年還是在就學的階段可是處罰的少年他們要工作所以院長這邊是不是可以承諾說可不可以在行政院的層級由我們的院長再主動再長期列管這個弱勢境遇未成年少年的就業的一些議題能夠讓部會能夠動起來"},{"start":28677.811,"end":28699.4,"text":"單就就業的部分我想勞動部一定會做比較多的研究那我們在行政院裡面的這個社會福利的會議當中我們可以把它納出一個議題怎麼來協助這些因為有社福身份的這些青少年們如果中離生的話很多事實上是會是在衛福部可是在校生的話會是在教育部"},{"start":28701.261,"end":28719.702,"text":"犯法的少年事實上是在法務部那就拜託我們的院長我們都會把他擠在一起來討論這些共同的問題謝謝院長也很感謝因為我覺得真的要大家一起來院長我自己事實上是來自社福界的背景可是不是只有少年事實上我們社福團體也常常是變成是詐騙"},{"start":28722.017,"end":28741.063,"text":"集團的一個對象所以為什麼只要打開社福網站社福團體的網站都會提到說你要提醒捐款小心詐騙這些字眼為什麼因為社福團體被詐騙集團利用到怕了公益竟然變成了一個詐騙的包裝所以詐騙集團就假借"},{"start":28741.743,"end":28756.469,"text":"要申請補助生活津貼文化資源的一些民意然後在LINE群組跟社群平台大量播放假訊息所以又使民眾交出個資然後辦理貸款甚至被盜刷這些狀況不只是傷害到民眾"},{"start":28757.025,"end":28774.627,"text":"也對我們公益團體事實上是有一個重創甚至捐款人就不再捐款所以想問一下衛福部這邊有沒有面對詐騙集團利用公益跟攝服民意行騙的時候政府在防範攔截跟追查的策略上有沒有可以讓他們協助他們來做自保的動作"},{"start":28775.011,"end":28797.45,"text":"好 報告委員內政部其實已經因為存在於社會各種詐騙的手法所以我們提出了新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領其中對於社府遭詐騙方面是先凍結賬戶這個由金管會再處理為了避免非營利社府團體被利用"},{"start":28798.411,"end":28815.358,"text":"被詐騙利用的確需要有相關的管理跟風險資安的風險控管來加強先導這個部分有兩個法一個是內政部的一個社團法人方面內政部來管財團法人社府團體這個由社家屬"},{"start":28816.218,"end":28841.333,"text":"我想部長是不是可以告訴我們的社福團體來做一些提醒我們會做加強先導我的時間也有限了因為今年來社福團體真的深受困擾都來我這邊做求助所以有時候會讓社福團體事實上感受到很大壓力因為為什麼有時候會影響到他們賬戶就直接被凍結所以他們就發不出薪水來給社工甚至就沒有辦法"},{"start":28842.113,"end":28861.188,"text":"繼續他們要做的一些服務就想問我們的劉世芳部長這邊就請問一下政府要如何去防範公益團體賬戶被我們的詐騙集團利用又如何要避免凍結賬戶的時候真正的公益資金不要讓它能夠凍結之後它沒辦法去運作"},{"start":28862.765,"end":28891.099,"text":"這個比較不容易第一個就是我們要確定說他這個賬戶是不是已經被詐騙集團拿去變成詐騙別人的一個賬戶那如果沒有經過後面的檢警調查查的話要解凍確實會比較困難一點但是我們還會再提醒就是說這些賬戶的擁有人也就是公益團體他是不是有看到這樣子的一個很莫名其妙的連結的時候趕快打165專線會告訴你說這是一個不法的連結不要一下子就"},{"start":28891.719,"end":28908.092,"text":"弄進去裡面然後被盜取我們社福團體的個資部長可不可以去研擬一下事實上之前我們有透過內政部的警政署真的有成功幫社福團體處理過這樣子我覺得是不是可以讓更多人受惠我也很感謝你們我們來辦說明會讓他們看怎麼處理"},{"start":28911.714,"end":28938.426,"text":"沒有辦法否則就會讓很多服務對象是沒辦法受到服務因為跟委員報告其實我們也會擔心說他透過這樣單一的一個公益團體的賬戶有時候會有其他的連帶的賬戶也會被圈存就是怕他可能是潛在的被詐騙戶所以這是警政署比較多超前部署的狀態但是也會有很多人覺得說這樣不太好不太方便"},{"start":28939.066,"end":28961.85,"text":"但是我們雖然阻詐了可是他們使用的人覺得說我又沒被詐騙你幹嘛把我的帳戶凍結所以我們來說明一下我想跟委員一起來努力因為很多社福團體他常年是非常正派在經營也在照顧大眾的是不是我們有可能建立一套社福團體的白名單讓他能夠安全的去運作同時未來我們在審查的過程當中要嚴謹的來審查各方來的訊息"},{"start":28965.151,"end":28986.561,"text":"再者萬一有誤觸到這個警視的帳戶的時候應該有一套機制讓他能夠尋正常機制迅速的能夠來解除這樣會不會造成比較少的問題因為我覺得您帶領的團隊的確在我們社福界真的給我們很多協助雖然我們提到少年就業馬上就有啟動所以今天最後還是希望行政院可不可以納入社福的視角"},{"start":29014.862,"end":29016.763,"text":"好 謝謝林岳清委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":29028.095,"end":29050.456,"text":"讓院長喝水好 我們接下來請黃建豪委員質詢陳庭飛委員請準備好 謝謝韓院長那我們現在請行政院的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29063.274,"end":29079.599,"text":"黃委員好院長好 院長我想一整天我想我是僅次於幾位官員聽最久的一個委員謝謝委員從早上到現在非常多大家從各個角度來關心我們這個台灣的詐騙委員一定可以給我更多更好的建議我相信應該可以 來"},{"start":29080.859,"end":29103.577,"text":"一開始我想先放一下新聞當然這個新聞片段的這個標題為什麼要特別提這個我想院長你看過這些新聞但是要跟院長報告這個只是兵山一角為什麼因為我的支持者我選區裡面也確實有這樣的家庭他們有上新聞他就是因為被詐騙家裡面受不了這樣的財務壓力他選擇結束自己的生命"},{"start":29104.107,"end":29124.68,"text":"那這個當然沒有上新聞那它一定會在政府的統計數據裡面它是一個聲明它只是一個數字所以今天院長在這邊我們在這邊質詢在這邊討論詐騙問題我們談了很多數字但是我今天一開始要放這些新聞讓院長知道說我們希望要怎麼樣去解決台灣的詐騙問題最核心的是我們把每一個詐騙案"},{"start":29126.061,"end":29147.213,"text":"它背後代表的是很多的家庭它代表的可能是每一個人的生計把它放在心裡面去面對這些事情我想我們才有辦法去用同理心去了解受害者的心情因為我想過去在整個司法體系裡面在整個大環境裡面大家認為詐騙好像是小罪 是輕罪從它的量刑 從它的判決"},{"start":29148.137,"end":29166.163,"text":"看起來過去是這樣子那當然陸陸續續包含說發生這種詐團去虐求這種詐騙集團騙的金額越來越高有這麼多人選擇這樣的方式解除自己生命所以導致說國人現在非常注重詐騙的這個問題所以我要拜託的是說一開始我們討論這是你的前提是要把詐騙它視為"},{"start":29167.523,"end":29193.637,"text":"非常嚴重甚至是國安等級的問題來面對這樣子我想院長幫我們行政團隊我們社會各界大家才能夠認真的去考慮這件事情好不好 院長沒錯 我們現在就把它當作很重要的治安而且可能影響到動搖整個國家經濟跟社會安定的這個層面來看它確實是一個高層次的治安甚至已經進入到一個國安的要求裡面去了"},{"start":29194.057,"end":29213.829,"text":"我想這個詐騙動搖國本我們從今年不談去年或前年因為院長你們不斷強調統計數字不一樣那我們就以新的統計方式來看待我想從詐騙的財損來看每個月這麼多錢被騙走平均一天大概兩億到三億我想整個台灣社會有這麼多錢通報被詐騙集團騙走"},{"start":29214.85,"end":29233.553,"text":"那真正的確實我也沒有否認說大家很辛苦有去查扣有查扣沒錯但是你看查扣的金額跟被詐騙的金額我想不成比例啊詐騙集團現在基本上是等於台灣最賺錢的行業但是我們在追溯在查扣的比例裡面我們真的效果不好啊"},{"start":29234.033,"end":29249.709,"text":"那效果不好到什麼程度包含說今天所有委員都放了那支影片我本來也想放但是沒關係我節省時間我們看到那個影片那個廖什麼廖先生我問他叫什麼名字他在他的這個社群上面"},{"start":29250.43,"end":29269.551,"text":"各地都是傳這個影片這個廖先生他敢這樣做就表示說他認為詐騙是輕罪對他來講確實他很快就假釋出來了他把這個錢繳一繳他就出來了然後繼續上網去講說沒關係想要賺錢的什麼叫做尻的什麼叫做水的這些專業術語"},{"start":29270.652,"end":29287.67,"text":"我等會都要上網查一下但是對他們來講對這個社群來講好像是一個天生的與生俱來他就知道怎麼做的事情所以比方說這個事情這個詐騙問題已經深入到很多的年輕族群很多不屋正宴的人他認為反正不管我是真的去做詐騙"},{"start":29288.451,"end":29312.991,"text":"我去做什麼 做尻的 我去做水的我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的騙過這個司法系統我能夠輕輕鬆鬆的走進法院裡面可能連監獄都不用進去因為他可能半年就出來了半年就出來之後裡面還有一些是什麼勞務役他根本連進去都不用進去他根本不受任何影響更何況我們看真正的這個數據我們看那個詐我們看下一頁 刑度統計"},{"start":29315.029,"end":29340.977,"text":"真正的行動統計你可以看到說有罪人數確實你們在報告裡面提到我們在懲詐的部分今年抓到詐團2025團查獲15912人這個是我們第一線的檢警調非常辛苦的把這些人抓到了但抓到之後院長你看一下這個數據我相信法務部也給你看過很多次了這個數據有罪的人每個月每年像1萬多人2萬人這樣子抓"},{"start":29342.95,"end":29361.618,"text":"但實際上真的被判三年以上的0.5% 0.3% 0.4%六個月以下的20%一年以上三年以下的50%那還有拘役的所以我們花了這麼多社會資源這麼多社會成本簡簡單單這麼認真這麼多宣導抓到了"},{"start":29364.827,"end":29393.784,"text":"但送進法院判決出來即便我們修法了我要講為什麼特別提今年度因為去年通過打詐條例所以我們本來期待的我們第一時間期待就是說為什麼要修打詐條例當初修打詐條例包含修新法339條之四都是因為說過去看到這樣的數據覺得這麼多人犯罪我抓到了我們希望他至少判刑他的這量刑能夠重一點能夠懲戒比較稍微效果但是從去年修完法到今年為止"},{"start":29394.773,"end":29423.123,"text":"你看這個數據它的比例並沒有明顯的改變六個月以下還是佔兩成多一年以上一年以上三年以下的也是要佔五成真的被判到三年以上我們打詐調例希望懲戒的所謂重罪要判到三年以上的一樣只佔百分之零點多而已不佔百分之一喔到底問題出在哪裡到底是我們修法不夠嚴謹還是司法系統判決哪裡出問題還是整個法界我們整個政府機關對於詐騙沒有把他視為重罪才有導致這個結果我嚴查嚴辦的部分請部長說明"},{"start":29424.58,"end":29443.568,"text":"這部分 這份統計數字的話因為我們詐偽條例的提高刑度是在去年113年8月才開始施行案件的偵辦必須要有一定的時間我相信這些數字應該是屬於判決確定的一個案件這個是在舊法時期就是最多是用刑法339之四"},{"start":29444.048,"end":29468.6,"text":"的那個型度那目前的話我們的確是有我們認為這個技能新法的成立而且這個炸團的氣焰一定要再壓制所以我們有要求檢查要具體球型那具體球型我們台高檢署也有定一個球型的一個標準給檢查做參考那我們要增加那個積壓率讓這些炸團的這些手模這些以及用窩裡環的條款"},{"start":29469.853,"end":29489.404,"text":"來做一個鱷子這些兆團的這個棲驗我想這部分的效果會一段時間就會很明顯的看出來那我再跟委員做一個補充剛才委員有說尿性攣子這方面這個是警方已經移送給Unity監視我想Unity監視會火速的來處理這個案件"},{"start":29490.665,"end":29516.518,"text":"來以正式聽因為這一種的話有涉及有可能會涉及到刑法153條的善或他能犯罪犯罪的這一種反悔秩序罪的這些的問題那我想這個的確是此風不可漲這個真是一個假釋中的一個這個怎麼可以去善或來 部長 這個個案喔那我想這部分這個個案當然要處理啦這個個案當然要處理但是我們今天見為之助嘛今天他敢這樣做"},{"start":29517.688,"end":29529.084,"text":"他可以光明正大的那是因為剛好他這個影片我不知道為什麼突然在社群上就爆紅了我也是在社群上看到他發現這個人怎麼那麼囂張但我相信這樣子的心態這樣子的"},{"start":29530.091,"end":29554.879,"text":"這個社區它這樣子的組織它不是唯一一個一定前面很多人做過類似的事情不斷的回溯不斷的再來一遍又一遍包含說前面也有問的我們這種判所謂的詐欺犯罪這些輕罪的人他們的債範率到底多少多少人被抓了被判了半年之後我出來然後我繼續投入同樣的產業繼續再做一樣事情這部分的數據到底我們法務部有沒有掌握"},{"start":29555.741,"end":29581.962,"text":"這部分我們有委員有需要的話我們可以提供給你們做一個參考那我想這個這個輕判的這個大家社會認為輕判我相信在一個假以時日我想這個整個效果會顯示出來因為我跟委員報告其實以前我們繳證署在監的這些受刑人是以毒品最多現在新收的都已經是詐欺最多了那個毒品的這邊一直降從五成降到四成"},{"start":29582.706,"end":29604.758,"text":"現在榨漆是一直在增加那個比例所以現在新收人犯新收最多的就是榨漆犯所以我想這個效果我們新法施行之後已經見到它的效果但是我們在等這個時間因為總是要一個審判的期間這樣才會看出它具體的成果這種數字是屬於"},{"start":29605.979,"end":29621.494,"text":"那個還沒有確定的一個我們希望這個數字能夠盡快呈現因為我提到了去年8月到現在快一年了那當然這個數字案件辦董事要有一定的心法要加快啦這個我是希望說行政的立場也好或是從司法立場也好或從我們多數民的立場"},{"start":29623.215,"end":29650.025,"text":"這個騙就是事實嘛我錢一直被騙走我每個月這麼多民眾的錢被騙走如果我們把它視為常態的一般像以前這樣我要強調為什麼一開始我要講這個案例就是因為我們過去當然你把它視為說這個是整個國家裡面其中一項事情那當然我們就按照流程來處理但今天我想詐騙的問題是動搖國本動搖民間的資產這個真的是我們以前常常講長富於民沒想到民間有這麼多自己給被騙耶一直被騙耶"},{"start":29651.005,"end":29665.429,"text":"那這個部分當然需要說這些去做詐騙的人就算他是車手車手被視為說是整個詐騙的產業裡面最底層的但是如果沒有這些車手詐騙也沒辦法成因為你每次都講我們也抓不到手錨啊"},{"start":29668.79,"end":29696.451,"text":"總是要把他手腳砍斷這個跟委員報告 我想我們努力今年來就破了2200多個炸團有 我看到報告上面有這個數據不是只有單純一個數據這個炸團整個一個非常大一個炸團的話就可以壓50幾個人所以我想我們的努力我想如果委員有在注意我們檢警調的這些的懲罰的績效我想你就很有印象部長 謝謝"},{"start":29697.412,"end":29725.175,"text":"再來談一下方法論的部分當然過去我也非常關注詐騙包含因為這是我自己的支持者親身經歷過所以我在提近代立法院包含提了電信管理法這個惡類電信詐騙我們要處理因為惡類電信過去也是很多人透過惡類電信這個法律的修正也走了一年才終於在基點終於刪讀後續現在正在執行當然執行成效好不好也需要等待時間出來惡類電信接下來還有什麼問題要處理我們的所謂的預付卡"},{"start":29726.336,"end":29737.204,"text":"傳統名稱移工卡 外勞卡這部分兩百多萬一路在外面 辦兩百多萬張但說真的 我國的所謂不管合法的 非法的移工大約就一百萬左右"},{"start":29738.203,"end":29759.318,"text":"就像你把桃園外老全部抓進去一百萬左右但是我們的卡有兩百多萬張那到底多的卡去哪裡了我們到底現在查到什麼程度在給我的數據裡面目前只有查了一百六十五萬筆那我就很好奇啊電信是有心靈資料的我們如果總外籍人士只有一百萬左右而已我有兩百多萬張卡"},{"start":29760.925,"end":29771.245,"text":"不是應該很快可以匹配出來這張卡跟那個人有沒有在一起吧同一個人取下兩張卡有沒有在一起吧這不是應該很好查是因為什麼要查了這麼久然後還有這麼多卡查不出來"},{"start":29772.352,"end":29796.479,"text":"跟委員報告這一部分我們是預計在8月底三家的239萬全部都清查完畢之所以會有時間的限制是因為當初有一些茶的量能專線怕影響白天入出境管理局的作業這邊我們也謝謝新市警察局跟入出境管理局移民署跟我們的合作這一塊到8月底都會清查出來"},{"start":29797.5,"end":29818.082,"text":"另外委員也關切了說這一塊部分其實到現在為止也已經停花了25.6萬拒絕申辦了14.6萬所以8月底以前這些全部都清查完畢我今天提這個就是希望說我們這件事情就一開始我所講的我們希望整個行政系統應該把這件事情視為第一要務"},{"start":29819.844,"end":29842.037,"text":"能夠阻止的不管是電信詐騙也好網絡詐騙也好金融詐騙也好我手上就有了資料就是你們能夠確實掌握到資料至少先把這個先斷掉嘛那其他的他用新的手法來騙用新的手法來鑽漏洞我們才有餘力去追查但是你現在是至少要先把手上能夠擁有的先處理完如果連手上擁有的本來我提到的心靈資料"},{"start":29843.098,"end":29865.647,"text":"一個人匹配他有兩張卡這兩張卡在不同地方出現他就擺明不同的人在使用這個應該就可以直接禁掉了不需要等那麼多時間對 這邊我們最後清查完畢就是他如果已經出境那卡還在國內的就會給他停掉另外委員關心的此卡的數量部分我們也已經在納管就是說外國人大概只一門為原則 本國人是兩門"},{"start":29866.956,"end":29883.485,"text":"如果说超过两门它要加强KYC的一些风控也要求业主来做到这一点我们未来除了在KYC指引之外我们现在在政委的打炸的修法里头我们打算修入打炸条例第14条那边去"},{"start":29884.073,"end":29898.363,"text":"好主委謝謝喔院長接下來還有一個剛剛你提到說其實我們真的銀行很辛苦第一線警察很辛苦所以我們常去阻詐是用人工去阻詐行員說你不可以轉警察就說你不能轉他就硬要轉然後把他轉出去發現自己被騙了"},{"start":29899.602,"end":29928.767,"text":"我能參考新加坡啊因為你剛提的沒錯詐騙是全球問題就連法律大家認為最嚴格的新加坡他們詐騙也非常嚴重所以他們今年提了一個法案Protection from Scams Bill的一個法案做什麼事情他就是從被害者的角度去出發今天我們是用柔性勸導的我們台灣是用柔性勸導說你不要轉啦那如果堅持要轉他還是能轉的新加坡他們的法案我認為是我們國內可以參考的方式他認為有疑慮的他會發出限制令"},{"start":29930.524,"end":29954.61,"text":"這個帳戶不能把這個錢轉進去大筆的不能轉但是要保留你的生活費你有對詐騙的疑慮警察來介入 司法機關來介入把相關的錢保護起來雖然是圈存 凍結起來但是你的生活費你要繳學費你要繳房貸 你要繳日常的生活費一樣可以繼續支出這樣的方向有沒有可能在我們中華民國政府裡面來試用"},{"start":29956.363,"end":29967.414,"text":"因為我們到底是一個教育自由高度自由的國家跟社會我想要這樣做以保護被害人的身份是值得考量但是一定要取得社會的共識應該把這個議題讓大家來討論好 謝謝黃建豪委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":29995.387,"end":30009.561,"text":"好 接下來我們請陳庭飛委員質詢葛如君委員請準備謝謝院長我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":30024.822,"end":30043.801,"text":"主委好 辛苦了 謝謝這幾天我想在這段時間除了我們要忙著我們台南的風災雨災還有很多縣市你辛苦了但是因為打仗也是很重要的議題我知道說從我們"},{"start":30046.804,"end":30065.141,"text":"民進黨執政以來甚至是賴總統上任以來其實我們對於打詐的議題是非常關注的然後在我們賴總統開始我們也一路從2024年我們有打詐五法也有打詐新四法"},{"start":30066.222,"end":30090.867,"text":"但是我們也重新把所謂的打詐儀錶板然後讓大家看得到到底我們現在被詐騙的數字所以很多人就說好像我們感覺我們的數字越來越多可是賴總統說不是是因為我們要求所有各單位各部會要據時呈現所有"},{"start":30093.988,"end":30121.695,"text":"人員或是人民被詐騙的數字所以感受到我們沒有掩飾我們也沒有掩蓋所有的狀況讓大家很清楚了解原本我們是期待大家看到這些數字會很驚慌會很擔憂可是我們看了之後反而在一度可能有稍微往下降"},{"start":30122.535,"end":30143.904,"text":"可是之後又往上我們也看到了最近幾個案例台中一家五口的命案說我們全家都被詐騙了沒有錢走上絕路還有看到這個汐止老夫妻親生因為被詐騙了250萬"},{"start":30147.669,"end":30163.661,"text":"這些都是眼睜睜讓我們看到這些數字跟這些社會案件那我要問院長在我們打詐無法打詐新釋法之後然後我們也看到打詐儀表板"},{"start":30165.205,"end":30188.908,"text":"整個數字從113年8月一路來看到了114年1月2月好像有往下降了可是還是在往上飆升我們看到這些數字院長你有什麼感受比較低的月份它有它的因素就每年大概在那個時候"},{"start":30190.367,"end":30219.24,"text":"是比較低的 往年都這樣子我們現在是每個禮拜 我剛剛說過我們的政務會議林明星政委都會把這個數字向政委們說明我們就一直掌握說 不論如何不讓它再往上升一定先把它壓平再把它往下降我們現在思索更多的方式現在幾乎是呈現一個比較水平的狀態我們現在在思索是如何把它往下降所以第一個不讓它往上升"},{"start":30220.228,"end":30230.808,"text":"初期達到這樣的要求所以我們幾項速度在我們設定是達標的但這些達標不代表我們有多少成效是我們現在下一個階段就是希望把它往下降"},{"start":30231.761,"end":30253.423,"text":"所以我們現在目前先控管數字不要往上飆升用的方法就是剛剛我們所說的市詐賭詐房詐主詐以及懲詐這幾項內容他也達標了那我們還用科技引入找出這個潛在的被害人等等的方式而且我們知道年輕人跟"},{"start":30254.509,"end":30273.85,"text":"退休的比較高齡的朋友們他們容易在某些季節裡面變成受害的對象我們也鎖定這些關鍵的時刻院長 我們不斷在宣導我們不斷在把這些訊息讓我們周邊的人知道可是為什麼"},{"start":30276.038,"end":30299.873,"text":"重點在哪裡是因為對方就是詐騙的人他的手法日新月異但是我們都是由各個單位然後固定一個禮拜開一次會如果必要的時候才由政委召集會議你知道政委召集幾次會議了嗎"},{"start":30302.165,"end":30313.194,"text":"林明清政委是經常召集很多次會議我沒有辦法算出他幾次會議還有他跟司法院也在做溝通其實政委召集會議就四次那雖然我們"},{"start":30315.353,"end":30332.234,"text":"每個禮拜每個月我們這些小組打造辦公室指揮中心都會開會可是我們被負責的部分就是只有報告而已而且我們沒有一個主責單位"},{"start":30334.619,"end":30362.88,"text":"在抓出到底別人怎麼在利用心理因素然後日新月異的詐騙手法我們沒有一個單位主要在監控這些訊息你知道這個詐騙集團他是每天他覺得你有辦法突破我我就有辦法突破你"},{"start":30366.504,"end":30377.914,"text":"可是重點是人家是一個集團每天就是在思考這些詐騙的手法但是我們有沒有這樣的主責單位每天在跟他鬥法 沒有"},{"start":30386.636,"end":30412.146,"text":"我們都只是有了這些訊息被詐騙了收集這些資料變成樣板然後我們再從這些樣板思考這些方式去針對它 去防堵它但是人家已經又換了一個手法了現在的問題是在這裡所以你看我們的資料我把它特別調出來"},{"start":30413.311,"end":30434.909,"text":"我們被詐騙的被害人其實24歲到39歲他是最高峰的他是最高峰的然後第二順位是誰40歲到59歲然後再來是12歲到23歲你知道光24歲到39歲他最被詐騙的人數就52,140人"},{"start":30441.974,"end":30447.557,"text":"然後40歲到59歲被詐騙的是38,792人12歲到23歲是24,424人我們有沒有去分析為什麼24歲到39歲被詐騙的人是最多的"},{"start":30462.509,"end":30491.5,"text":"我們如果沒有從這個族群去做分析我們沒有辦法了解為什麼我們的被詐騙人數一直居高不下再來我們從詐騙被害人的這些資料收集他的教育程度其實高中職是最高峰的是第一名的總共占了六萬四千兩百五十二位"},{"start":30492.591,"end":30513.127,"text":"大專是第二市佔了44,943為什麼我們有沒有去了解為什麼在教育程度當中被詐騙的第一名教育程度是高中職然後第二名是大專院校"},{"start":30514.605,"end":30527.854,"text":"如果我們沒有把這些細節把它區分出來我們就不知道問題會出在哪裡所以你看我們的數字2024年2024年被損失的金額總共整年度是1332億250萬2547元"},{"start":30542.591,"end":30569.129,"text":"到了目前2025年截至到七月底為止是五百六十五億五千六百八十萬五千元你看我們不斷的在宣導其實我們走到哪裡都在宣導我們都跟大家講拜託天上沒掉下來的禮物從簡訊跟你說恭喜你中獎了可是"},{"start":30572.642,"end":30586.142,"text":"一開始他們用簡單說恭喜你中獎可是現在他們的手法已經改變了他們居然可以了解到你都在哪一個網站"},{"start":30587.984,"end":30610.191,"text":"買東西而且都知道說你可能在哪一個時段哪一個時間你密集在哪一個網站買東西然後突然之間傳了一個訊息給你說我告訴你因為你在哪裡哪一個網站買東西但是我們都刷了"},{"start":30611.778,"end":30640.494,"text":"那你會不會很懷疑 不會啊因為他講的資訊很正確啊我確實在哪一個時間 哪一個時段我有在哪一個網站買東西所以他就打電話去問說 你說我多刷了 你要退還給我就中了我的經驗 我都用貨到付款絕不給他賬號"},{"start":30642.335,"end":30663.99,"text":"但是我們現在手機LiPayApple Pay非常的方便太簡單了 太輕易了對不對 非常的方便根本就不會想到用貨到付款除非我們開始宣導拜託大家 貨到付款可以這樣宣導嗎"},{"start":30665.68,"end":30689.88,"text":"不一定每個人都適用對啊不一定每個人都適用嘛所以我一直在講為什麼我們這個族群24到39歲族群是最多的因為這個族群用LiPay Apple Pay非常多最方便還有第二名是40到59歲因為這個年齡層也是"},{"start":30695.68,"end":30719.675,"text":"第三12歲到23歲剛好這三個年齡層所以我說院長你應該責成他們去做分析要把這些問題點找出來我們才有防詐的一個利基點還有為什麼明明我們常在講我們不斷宣導希望大家不要受騙那應該"},{"start":30721.957,"end":30751.298,"text":"我們受教育的程度如果越高的話我們認為應該比較不會受騙但是為什麼不一定為什麼我們要不要找出原因我們現在常常在活動當中跟阿公阿嬤去宣導可是如果依照這個數字應該被宣導的阿公阿嬤很重要可是在24歲到39歲也很重要"},{"start":30752.594,"end":30763.704,"text":"所以我在講的是我們要對症下藥要怎麼對症下藥如果我們沒有把這些數字很清楚的做分析那我們很難對症下藥啊"},{"start":30765.704,"end":30784.481,"text":"我相信內政部 警政署 打詐中心他們都有做各種不同的分析今天我們呈現出來的是從案件來做分析年齡的分析 族群的分析應該都是一個基礎上的分析我可以請他們應該有做這個分析的資料我們跟委員一起來研究"},{"start":30785.097,"end":30803.729,"text":"院長不是只有分析就是他們有分析啊所以我才拿得到這些資料啊就是他們有所謂族群這個哪一個年齡層最多然後那個次多的是誰就是因為他們有這個所以我拿得到資料重點是為什麼"},{"start":30805.502,"end":30824.03,"text":"為什麼我們要去把這些案例做一個比對是不是這些人因為用iPad、iPad比較多用Apple Pay的比較多或做什麼樣的一個直接用手機支付的比較多網路購物的比較多我覺得我們去做這個分析"},{"start":30825.186,"end":30840.242,"text":"所以院長因為這些資料一定是他們有把它分析出來對 有這個基礎我只是拜託他們有沒有把所有的案例再做比對為什麼"},{"start":30841.683,"end":30870.451,"text":"應該我們要的是這些比較潛在的資料那麼我們才能對於這些族群去做一些宣導甚至一些防堵甚至有一些要求我們一定要有這樣的一個數字所以院長這是我的想法非常好我們不想要拜託你 必要是朝這個方向因為我們在地方實在是接受太多的訊息了"},{"start":30871.693,"end":30884.882,"text":"所以拜託院長可能要折成我們這些相關單位來做這個部分那剩只有幾秒鐘的時間我跟院長報告一下要拜託一下我的板子呢"},{"start":30888.905,"end":30915.199,"text":"我要拜託我們的院長因為我板子沒拿下來就是說院長有兩個部分拜託就是我們家戶這個防水閘板的部分家戶防水閘板申請趕快做專案的核准凱米有 我們丹納斯沒有大家都期待第二個就是農民勞工的紓困貸款"},{"start":30918.001,"end":30929.806,"text":"這個會有一個及時語這個及時語很重要這兩個部分拜託院長給我們一個最快速的一個回應我們盡量納入特別條例特別預算當中來好 謝謝陳廷飛委員質詢謝謝卓院長備詢"},{"start":30941.037,"end":30961.976,"text":"報應會現在來自我們議場二樓旁聽的是香港之友會舉光文化福中心兩個團體熱情掌聲熱情歡迎好我們接下來請葛如君委員質詢林楚瑩委員請準備"},{"start":30985.485,"end":30989.403,"text":"好 謝謝院長有請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":31001.869,"end":31018.084,"text":"委員好 院長好我想我國的詐騙問題很嚴重您今天應該已經有更深刻的認識詐欺案件的發生數和採水的金額可以說是逐年升高想必您今天就是最好了解的機會"},{"start":31019.085,"end":31043.548,"text":"那為了讓政府有充足的武器跟工具去應對日益嚴重的詐騙案件我們透過了法律去賦予行政機關空間以及條件作為在必要的時候採取必要行動的依據不過沒想到如今卻變成了行政單位有可能去侵害到人權以及數位人權的手段"},{"start":31044.722,"end":31070.268,"text":"過去其實發生過不少次錯誤下架的事件有一些平台啊比如說在去年大量的下架正牌財經網紅的粉專遭到大家的批評在兩週之前又再次發生數千人的賬號被停權下架裡面有醫師有新聞主播美妝旅遊KOL"},{"start":31071.849,"end":31098.641,"text":"設計師 心理師還有出版社編輯各行各業可以說是百工百業被下架更甚者在四天前連我們113位立委之一翁小林委員的臉書帳號也被停權粉專藍勾勾也被下架這些被平台下架封鎖的一般民眾非常痛苦成立了超過3000人的自救會"},{"start":31099.841,"end":31106.631,"text":"本席手上有他們的陳情書這裡面有五百多個人的個資以及心聲"},{"start":31108.347,"end":31132.302,"text":"500多人啊 這只是一小部分啊3000人的自救會 也只是一小部分啊他們有些人啊 失去了工作有些人啊 他的工作本來就是管理這些粉專老闆的賬號被封啊 連員工的也一起被封粉專立刻不見 而認定他們失職還有直接就被集團給fire掉了"},{"start":31132.862,"end":31147.962,"text":"有人是多年的家庭生活的記錄跟祖父母合照的照片就因為帳號被停權下架消失人生的閱歷回憶全部消失而罹患了憂鬱症"},{"start":31148.763,"end":31170.023,"text":"有非常多複雜的狀態所以我想要請教院長本席正式的在此將這份陳情書交給您這裡面有受害者的名稱 停權日期停權造成的影響等等能不能您接下來我們就折騰速發布來處理此事各位我在數年前也曾經被下架過"},{"start":31171.604,"end":31183.747,"text":"這經過一個程序就把它回復過來您是院長不是 數年前報告委員但是這確實是擾民我們是不是先接下這個陳情書願意嗎 院長可以吧好 謝謝謝謝院長"},{"start":31207.947,"end":31226.768,"text":"我想真的也謝謝院長接下這幾千位裡面只是一部分的這個陳情書啊那真的是要責成速發部來正視此事我想部長您應該希望能夠盡速給這些受害者您也受害過一個交代不要讓他們繼續承受這些壓力對嗎"},{"start":31229.41,"end":31249.137,"text":"待會會有時間給抒發部部長說明院長你應該願意幫忙對吧我們認為我們在打擊各種不法的過程當中也是要善盡到保護一般的合法的國人好的這裡面其實真的不是只是平台的責任我們來看一下"},{"start":31250.057,"end":31273.128,"text":"很多人都是因為政府機關的錯誤通知才慘遭下架很多人正常的經營粉專就被這些平台告知因為政府有速發部有刑事局有可能是金管會的要求去下架當平台業者收到通知以後如果不進行處理可能就會被處罰"},{"start":31274.048,"end":31292.584,"text":"只好全部下架全部封鎖但有很多正牌的粉專正牌的帳號就被錯殺造成正版被下架結果咧爆版活得好好的還像雨後春筍一樣冒出來院長您可以看一下左邊左上角本來是一個KOL"},{"start":31293.024,"end":31320.452,"text":"他的帳號被下架以後左下角搜尋同樣的KOL名字立刻跑出一堆假的這不是在助長詐騙集團嗎在右邊也是另外一個用粉專在營業推廣知識的平台就來陳情抱怨因為被打詐被下架立刻跑出一堆假的平台假冒他們的身份去騙錢啊所以我想請院長啊"},{"start":31321.092,"end":31346.604,"text":"真的要了解如果我們打詐真的有這種錯殺由政府發出通知錯殺的情況這就是在幫助詐騙集團院長同意嗎我們會盡量的避免但是同時這個內容的審查跟雙方之間民眾跟平台之間有可能是他們內部的商業行為這個倒不是一概而論全部都這樣不是一概而論但是政府要負政府的責任同意嗎好"},{"start":31347.925,"end":31364.252,"text":"我們來看一下政府其實有責任這些都是非常明確的速發部可以封鎖把服務搶起來然後我們的內政部刑事局可以說不能看台灣人不能看"},{"start":31365.172,"end":31390.065,"text":"還有完全沒有證據就說人家有詐欺的嫌疑整個帳號被停權沒有證據哪個單位哪個情況完全不知道請問院長當民眾因為政府單位錯誤通報被下架以後民眾應該要如何申訴我們期待平台有一個申訴的管道政府需不需要因為政府有通知"},{"start":31391.127,"end":31394.304,"text":"政府如果可以的話我們也可以做一些這樣的協助"},{"start":31396.809,"end":31420.384,"text":"提供一些管道來幫忙那現在管道待會我們會提到啦那誰要對這個錯誤負責有沒有賠償的機制很多粉專就是他們的營業的方法啊就是一個粉專就是一個公司啊第一個當然是要求公部門能夠嚴格的要求自己那如果出現了這樣的錯誤我們第一個協助民眾儘快恢復如果有不得恢復的事情那可能會是衍生其他"},{"start":31421.644,"end":31437.713,"text":"民事的等等問題 我覺得那個是個法律問題謝謝院長說要趕快協助那我們來看一下其實現在的狀況就是速發部完全沒有管道來協助民眾其實這裡我們看一下這個通報網的流程"},{"start":31438.893,"end":31452.841,"text":"裡面呢有審核機關結果呢完全沒有任何一個機制去審核這些審核機關去監督這些監督機關我想問一下速發部長民眾去請速發部下架有單一窗口嗎"},{"start":31454.276,"end":31470.117,"text":"我們有網路詐騙通報查詢網我說的是帳號被停權的一般受害的百姓我們有申訴管道如果有申訴管道有效的話還會有這麼多人要陳情三千多人要成立自救會嗎報告委員"},{"start":31472.139,"end":31498.944,"text":"我們這些很多不是我們去那個因為像Meta它有一個叫社群守則那這個社群守則很多是它根據內部的自律的機制去做處理並不是我們謝謝部長我已經都秀給部長看了你們的部會名稱都在這裡院長如果只要有錯下架你們都說是平台的責任那我讓平台來當速發部部長好不好不能這樣子我們先講沒有關係部長"},{"start":31501.204,"end":31518.38,"text":"我相信速發部很想把事情做好我們現在是一起把事情做好我們來看一下這張圖啦我直接就問嘛中間的審核機關可以決定名單通報平台去下架這個部分沒問題啊這張圖是你們自己的圖喔"},{"start":31519.485,"end":31541.319,"text":"那請問這個審核機關啊有沒有平衡的機制有沒有人可以二次把關這個審核機關有沒有誘因去提高他的辨識率不要亂下架什麼機制告訴我我們現在就是在精進這個機制那我剛講就是說很多比如像這牽涉到健康衛福"},{"start":31541.687,"end":31568.087,"text":"那就衛福部來審查我們沒辦法做第二次審查交通的話就交通部來審查或者是各個部會他負責審查自己內部的內容就說像詐騙廣告是要給目的事業主管機關所以院長今天我要透過這個渠道來讓您知道這個各個目的事業主管機關的認定是沒有任何人可以制衡沒有任何人可以檢查"},{"start":31568.507,"end":31594.782,"text":"我們今天完全不知道任何一個部會今天提供了多少清單有多少人被下架哪些是錯誤的我們有這樣的機制嗎如果你要再加一個機制下去那整個下架流程變更長我們現在希望是24小時下架你要再去重新審查所以就是求快剛剛那三千個人的權益都可以損失嗎三千人不見不見的都是我們要求下架這是他的社群守則"},{"start":31595.402,"end":31620.664,"text":"那有沒有是你們的啊我再秀一次有沒有是你們的嗎所以我想你們事實上我們都很清楚啦正確率其實是不夠的啦我只是不想在這裡大家都是同行我想要一個具體的建議機關不可以獨斷獨行做出侵害民眾的權益我們要有double check的機制不然某個機關心情好多殺一點"},{"start":31621.144,"end":31646.725,"text":"心情不好多錯一點有什麼關係有沒有平衡的方法有打架儀表板可不可以有下架儀表板讓大家可以知道發生什麼事在儀表板旁邊可以有申訴院長可不可以責成速發部把這件事做好我先講一句話我說我幾年前也被下架過那時候並沒有這個通報的平台但是那個下架就是他內部的管理所以"},{"start":31647.345,"end":31672.882,"text":"今天所有的下架都歸於這個平台我們有全部歸於但是這個機制不完美部長也承認了我們來也請委員來提供我們有沒有更好的方式來一個安全的機制我剛剛提出了有打詐儀標板可不可以有下架儀標板我們現在民眾沒有人知道誰是被錯下架誰是自己真的做了壞事沒有任何證據院長我們希望責成可以嗎"},{"start":31673.965,"end":31699.403,"text":"我們第一個要求我們事先在審核的時候各部會依照他的部會業務要嚴格的來審核即是優化嚴格處理不好意思我時間有限了還有一個很重要的問題我們剛剛討論的是平台我們現在討論連整個網站跟服務都有可能被封鎖了我們看到速發部有說哇很成功啊攔阻了幾萬件幾十萬件啊但是結果發生什麼事情啊"},{"start":31700.183,"end":31722.077,"text":"DNSRPG是鎖掉整個平台跟網域啊Google可以直接被認定詐騙封網啊我們Telegram可以直接被搶啊我們連這個Azure的雲端平台的服務全部包括超商企業全部連到這裡被封鎖啊沒辦法解鎖院長知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":31722.737,"end":31751.102,"text":"因為公文系統也是用這個平台在建設的所以公文發不出去所以我想要問的就是啊我們沒有一個機制去做但是呢部長之前有說了給平台跟服務也有救濟管道請問部長救濟管道在哪裡我們剛剛就委員建議就是說我們當然以後會在我們的這個網路大通報存檔加一個鏈接不過現在遇到這種狀況的時候直接聯絡我們蘇華部的窗口我們都會去處理"},{"start":31751.955,"end":31780.172,"text":"但是另外一點就是說其實這些平台他們也有申訴的管道所以事實上可以從那個地方申訴也是可以所以申訴的管道不是一個您是速發部部長平台是平台如果您再這樣做我們請平台來做速發部好了啦我想我們不要這樣我們先繼續我想請問院長機關動用防詐條例第42條可以用DLS RPZ直接認定就封鎖不用經過審核為什麼"},{"start":31782.133,"end":31798.835,"text":"可以看一下各目的事業主管機關喔您底下的所有部位只要他認為有問題直接就可以全部封掉剛剛全部的都是因為這一條院長為什麼可以這樣啊"},{"start":31801.058,"end":31827.697,"text":"是不是可以檢討一下可不可以檢討一下這個流程跟機制有沒有濫用的問題濫用法條的問題可以嗎這個認定如果是依法來認定應該沒有事法上的問題但依法這個法它是合不合理那就是另外一個討論我們是給空間跟條件但是執行上拜託好好的處理那一定要嚴謹的去認定如果是 沒錯 嚴謹嘛緊急案件我們理解可是沒有制衡跟濫用這個我們絕對是不可以的"},{"start":31828.197,"end":31846.766,"text":"我想有很多的錯誤判斷沒有把關就會造成什麼降分我想網路人權也是人權數位人權也是人權美國自由之家在網路自由度的報告2022年跟2023年都下降你知道為什麼嗎"},{"start":31848.476,"end":31874.537,"text":"我想院長不清楚我直接給你看2022年降分因為你們封鎖了因為你們屏蔽了2023年你們刑事案件裡面直接對網站刑事屏蔽沒有做任何的監督機制跟監察機制所以我們想要講的就是不透明沒有監察機制就有錯殺亂殺我想我們作為民主國家"},{"start":31875.899,"end":31902.186,"text":"一個數位的帳號也是一個數位的人數位人權也是人權數位民主也是民主數位資訊的自由也是自由如果沒有審查的機制沒有嚴格執行的做法就會影響到我們的數位人權院長可不可以在一個月內對保障數位人權提出報告我請訴發部"},{"start":31903.817,"end":31915.916,"text":"請恕研究一個合理的救濟的管道跟機制好 謝謝葛如君委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":31929.619,"end":31951.514,"text":"好 接下來我們請林楚英委員請質詢陳冠廷委員請準備謝謝主席主席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢數位部黃部長數位部備詢"},{"start":31964.72,"end":31984.694,"text":"議員好院長辛苦了其實從今天早上我在這裡聆聽您的報告的時候我就非常注意到首先當然我必須講只要有任何一件詐騙的存在人民就不會滿意但是呢詐騙這個部分我想詐騙集團他其實就是絞盡腦汁要"},{"start":31987.195,"end":32001.267,"text":"從人民或者是受害者的身上拿到最多的金錢上面的利益所以他也會絞盡腦汁那麼對整個行政團隊來講確實是非常非常大的嚴苛考驗跟挑戰"},{"start":32002.108,"end":32022.654,"text":"今天我們針對這個新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0的執行成效請您跟相關的部會來做報告也一整天了那我必須講這個行動的打擊的2.0的綱領是去年11月底也就是11月28號才開始"},{"start":32024.855,"end":32046.625,"text":"那麼說實在的根本都還沒滿一年如果我們用月來推算現在大概就是滿八個月而已其實現在在這個時間點所有防詐的各個相關部會坐在這裡是不是現在馬上就必須要來做檢討其實本席是存疑的因為坦白說立法院在這個時候它並不是會議的期間"},{"start":32047.685,"end":32064.98,"text":"但是因為民眾黨提案要研會民眾黨也提案說要來做這個報告那麼我們當然也就予以尊重但是到底有多少民眾黨的委員在現場目前有一位啦那其他的民眾黨的委員呢有人早上黨署席還去車隊掃街了"},{"start":32066.721,"end":32091.789,"text":"所以我認為我希望真正關心這個議題的就不要作秀真的好好的認真來關心這個題目那麼我們一起來解決民眾的問題首先開始之前本席先來念一個最新的報導上面提到的就是道高一尺 謀高一丈打詐2.0我們真的要加把勁根據行政院的官員說今年的詐騙期短有兩種改變了"},{"start":32094.005,"end":32122.956,"text":"第一個是詐騙的金額沒有變少一樣喔但是案件數變多了可見詐騙集團很狡猾他的作案動作越來越多那麼剛剛前面有委員一直提到的就是打詐的樣態當越來越多的時候我們到底要如何讓人民知道第二個當然等一下我也會就叫金管會的彭主委就是現在的洗錢流程變短了那麼"},{"start":32123.696,"end":32150.771,"text":"過去可能要有五個步驟要有超過三個金融機構以上但現在通常就是兩個步驟一下子經過一個金融機構就洗到了加密貨幣然後來無影去無蹤我想先就第一個就是詐騙的樣態變多本席想請問一下部長手機裡面有沒有下載一個叫做打詐通報平台系統"},{"start":32152.185,"end":32180.813,"text":"部長你有下載這個平台系統嗎委員講的是我們自己有一個網路有一個APP部長你有下載嗎有下載其實剛剛前面葛如君委員在問的就是這個包括這個通報的系統到底怎麼樣的操作其實本席有下載但是你知道這個通報系統有多少人知道有多少人在使用嗎我們來看下一張"},{"start":32182.735,"end":32202.503,"text":"這個通報系統5月15號上線到現在截至8月11號有19522位民眾下載那麼有3300剛好3838人使用這個APP來做案件的通報但是如果以Google Play平台上每個月"},{"start":32203.843,"end":32231.414,"text":"下載的流量有61萬件來講那麼我就請問部長你覺得這個使用量高嗎我們需要我們當然希望更高那我們也需要做一些宣傳這個我想我們可以再繼續努力但現在就是說很多民眾下載之後他們很熱心通報所以我們通報的案件有現在到目前至少有超過25萬件然後裡面有發現14萬件以上是詐騙廣告"},{"start":32233.207,"end":32251.042,"text":"讓我們能夠去下架這14萬多件的詐騙廣告所以雖然說參與的下載人不多但是這些民眾的熱情通報確實讓我們下架很多詐騙廣告但是我們會繼續努力讓更多人能夠去利用這樣的一個APP來協助政府打詐"},{"start":32251.857,"end":32269.108,"text":"坦白說本席是因為要質詢所以才去做了功課然後我才下載知道的人可以說是非常的少但是既然五月份到現在我們就已經上架但是使用量卻非常低其實它有一個功能是很好用的"},{"start":32269.468,"end":32284.433,"text":"我們乾脆就藉由今天現在這個質詢的機會來告訴大家就是當你發現任何一個平台上面有任何一個廣告任何一個社群你覺得有問題你只要複製貼上就可以通報"},{"start":32285.373,"end":32308.852,"text":"而且在通報的過程中他會告訴你現在通報的狀況比如說本席現在看到放在最上面的一個是蔡鴻圖的粉絲專頁還有國泰清控董事長他的粉絲專頁被通報了但是我點進去看之後他其實還在跟本人確認中"},{"start":32310.566,"end":32326.337,"text":"所以這個也就是剛剛委員們垂詢這未到的就是說這是不是放進去之後到底能不能獲得證實我看到的這個是我點進去看了8月15號就通報了"},{"start":32328.055,"end":32352.44,"text":"那8月15號也就是今天嘛那早上通報了之後那麼到了下午之後有沒有任何新的進展不知道但是也許現在我們諮詢的傳播出去了本人會趕快來確認這是不是真的那我覺得這樣的一個通報系統他是結合了跟平台的合作跟金管會跟財政部跟所有的社群"},{"start":32353.22,"end":32375.36,"text":"包括在我們的打炸相關的部會當中他都有做一個連結大家會知道這個資訊我覺得是一件好事但問題現在就在這裡宣傳不夠民眾不知道那麼就形同虛設到底我們要如何增強宣傳我們大家也知道巧婦難為無米之炊啦現在"},{"start":32376.441,"end":32404.987,"text":"數位部到底有沒有打算要做宣傳當然本席也可以幫忙找出數據包括之前數位部因為宣傳費用這個通院刪減60%然後宣傳提案又刪了50%所以你們到底還剩下多少的宣傳那這個部分到底有沒有安排宣傳還是你就是把它上架在Google的App Store跟這個Apple的App Store然後其他你就沒有再管它"},{"start":32406.321,"end":32426.238,"text":"委員其實講到一個重點就是因為經費被大刪的結果我們現在所有經費都拿去發展因為這個APL包括我們要發展AI的技術去做這個掃描所以的確在宣傳經費上是幾乎沒有但是我想以後我們會在有限資源之下我們會盡量去做宣傳"},{"start":32428.401,"end":32454.828,"text":"這個基本上 院長我覺得這個通報系統我自己下載了之後我覺得有它的必要存在性但是剛剛前面的委員也在質詢就是是不是讓平台擁有太多的下架權力但是這個就是這樣當初我們在自訂有關於打炸專法的時候求的是快 求的是效率求的是第一時間的阻斷"},{"start":32456.311,"end":32476.969,"text":"但是現在呢又過來變成是有人來跟你澄清說哎呀我是正宮結果我的真正的粉絲被阻擋了是不是平台把我屬於我本人真正的認證的粉絲團反而被下架了我要上傳我的東西的時候反而我被阻攔了"},{"start":32477.449,"end":32489.781,"text":"所以在快速跟正確性之間到底有沒有一個平衡包括剛剛我講的這個通報的平台有沒有bug還是說其實在這個中間真的缺少了一個守門員"},{"start":32492.298,"end":32513.406,"text":"剛剛從委員那個案例當中就知道他確實有經過一段時間的查和審查那審查的過程當中本人也應該積極的來配合告訴大家說我這個是名符其實的那這個就會安全了那如果他真的是碰到一個假的他大概不敢出面我們就會把他做下一步的處置"},{"start":32514.386,"end":32537.595,"text":"那這個也是當初速發部在設計這個通報平台當中花了很長時間一直在我們內部的會議一直在反覆的使用我們非常謹慎一定要它能夠達到真實這個目的才出來的談了很多次我發覺都不如今天委員在這裡講的這一次所以您今天應該我們可以請委員當我們的代言人"},{"start":32538.772,"end":32561.588,"text":"我是真的覺得這個東西五月底上線到現在知道的人太少然後再來就是驗證的速度是不是夠快尤其是像粉絲團或者是Instagram或者是其他這個所謂的社群平台上面的這種所謂個人的粉絲團需要驗證確實需要花一點時間能不能有更多快速的綠色通道那這個就請"},{"start":32562.509,"end":32577.667,"text":"行政院這裡跟數位部這裡來做一個跟平台更快速的溝通那麼至於如果是所謂我們講的這種廣告式的詐騙那麼他一見就可以立刻把他拉下來那麼這個當然就可以有比較快的效率"},{"start":32579.478,"end":32604.685,"text":"報告委員的確沒錯這個整個過程中也就是說尤其特別講的是Meta因為被我們要求的結果要產生更強硬的自律的措施這裡面包括社群守則的確是有需要精進的空間所以剛剛講的很多間的下架是它內部自律的結果我想我們會再跟Meta再去溝通它的確這個所謂的社群守則在判斷這個所謂的詐騙廣告的時候"},{"start":32606.974,"end":32620.035,"text":"需要更精準這個我們會繼續再跟Meta努力但是很多下架並不是我們數碼部通知的就是他們自律用社群守則去下架這個需要再精進這個我們再會去跟Meta再來討論"},{"start":32621.169,"end":32643.441,"text":"好那麼接下來呢我要看下一張就是剛剛提到的兩個重點第一個是手段多樣那麼如何讓民眾更知道多樣的手段那麼通報的方式當然要多元再來當然就是有關於虛擬貨幣現在是不是虛擬的服務商虛擬貨幣的服務商成為洗錢的這樣的一個管道當你一旦"},{"start":32643.981,"end":32672.121,"text":"放进了虚拟货币的平台之后可能就真的再也来无影去无踪因为我们都知道这个所谓在网路上面一旦钱洗出去之后要追都追不回来只能用事后的方式来补枪除了我知道其实今天早上已经有非常多的委员在询问有关于就是我们的虚拟资产的法律到底什么时候可以真的送到立法院因为我们已经过了预告期了"},{"start":32673.261,"end":32693.366,"text":"現在大家非常要知道的是行政院在這個部分在金管會在這個部分裡面到底怎麼樣來看把關的部分是 跟委員說明一下我們在虛擬資產服務法草案我們在列為27號送進行政院而且很快的行政院劉靜清是政委已經做過審查"},{"start":32694.967,"end":32714.228,"text":"持續在審查中因為這個條文是一個全新的而且非常複雜比如這裡面還有涉及到現在全世界都在關注的穩定幣這部分大家都非常的關注我們在送出來之前也已經開過超過20場的公聽會其實也整合了蠻多的意見我想這個應該會儘速來在行政院討論完畢然後送到行政院來"},{"start":32714.91,"end":32738.183,"text":"因為其實現在缺的就是一個法源我當然知道就是現在許多我們的相關的這個虛擬的貨幣的服務商喔他們其實是很配合的不論他們有沒有在台灣落地他們都很願意配合相關的單位來進行打詐的協助但是有沒有法源是非常的重要如果說今天明明知道這個賬戶有問題"},{"start":32739.884,"end":32754.962,"text":"但是沒有法源可以立即來做阻斷那麼我們只能變成事後後續來把錢追回來但是放上了網路一切斷鏈之後前後追查不到那麼很難錢會追回來"},{"start":32755.783,"end":32770.339,"text":"所以對於所謂的很快到底要有多快速度上面院長有沒有一個想法跟宣示因為我們都知道虛擬資產的服務商他們多數是跟銀行端確實是有建立一定的聯絡的管道"},{"start":32770.839,"end":32791.332,"text":"但是如果說今天我們在法規上能夠更健全當我們知道這一筆錢送進了虛擬資產服務平台的時候它就是有憑有據不是來路不明甚至於就是客戶自己的自有的資金那麼可以提供這樣的所謂的KYC的時候"},{"start":32791.812,"end":32819.879,"text":"那麼當然我們就可以更杜絕所謂剛剛我前面提到的透過這樣的一個虛擬資產虛擬幣把錢洗出去所以法的重要性是來自於不只對於這些服務商提供他們一定的法源的監控是他們跟這些金融機構之間彼此的連結也有一個法源的根據我對於台灣的金融機構在我們金管會的金融監督底下他們包括今年"},{"start":32821.039,"end":32842.02,"text":"前幾個月這個所謂警示賬戶都慢慢逐漸在減少因為對於金融機構來講他們的警示賬戶超過一定的比例他們會收到金管會相關的這個詢問甚至於懲處所以他們是非常非常仔細跟小心的可是聯絡到所以我們的"},{"start":32843.381,"end":32869.329,"text":"虛擬幣的服務提供商的時候可能中間就會有一個斷鏈的bug這個也是現在詐騙集團找到可以鑽漏洞的巧門所以我才會認為這個法規必須要加緊腳步剛剛主委說六月底已經呈報到院六月底呈報到院我認為如果內容完整而且非常的充實可用為了趕快我們在下會期是不是可以把它送出來"},{"start":32875.643,"end":32897.622,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員質詢也謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長貝許瑩 謝謝各位 接下來是最後一位登記的陳冠廷委員我們非常感謝臺灣民眾黨團唯一的從下午專案到現在的劉淑冰委員從頭到尾非常感謝我們請陳冠廷委員請質詢"},{"start":32918.1,"end":32932.596,"text":"你好 我們請院長麻煩請卓院長再次備選陳委員好 院長好"},{"start":32933.666,"end":32961.855,"text":"院長我們看今天的報告裡面有提到各種的詐騙的形式其中投資詐騙它也是一個主要的原因投資詐騙裡面我認為說除了詐騙集團他們的各種的方式之外其實源自於不了解投資的標的物特別是我們剛才很多委員都提到的虛擬貨幣也好或者是穩定幣也就是說我們現在金融的防堵"},{"start":32962.475,"end":32974.863,"text":"它有一個重要的一點就是我們在國內大概是有辦法做有效的防堵但是在境外的合作具體的方式可能我們還是需要透過各種外交的手段努力來去進行"},{"start":32975.765,"end":33004.78,"text":"但是現在跨境洗錢過去可能是用虛擬貨幣像是比特幣來進行但是現在穩定幣也成為主流的虛擬貨幣甚至在美國也被納入它的天才法案裡面虛擬貨幣是具備高度的流通性以及高度的隱蔽性所以隱蔽性也有 流通性也有有了穩定幣之後等於是說他們能夠連價值儲存的功能都具備價值甚至不會因為市場的波動而去縮水它又變成了新時代的一個洗錢的工具"},{"start":33005.939,"end":33026.964,"text":"我講這麼多的原因是因為在穩定幣雖然是號稱有基於去中心化的技術但是它的發行卻是基於高度中心化的這些發行商所以從這些發行商來去做技術上的凍結特定地址的資產的權利是有的譬如說美國司法部就曾經成功的要求泰達公司凍結泰達幣"},{"start":33030.185,"end":33050.818,"text":"我們在未發生之前我們先做防範它的效用會更大我想請教院長我們是不是也可以和泰達這些主要的穩定幣發行商直接建立快速的緊急聯繫跟凍結機制在黃金時間裡面 例如說24小時內請求這些發行商對這些涉詐的錢包進行預防性的凍結然後之後再補足司法程序"},{"start":33053.538,"end":33073.311,"text":"是跟委員報告一下當然最近有關穩定幣的討論非常的多當然剛剛委員有提到我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面也有這一塊剛剛委員提到說我們可不可以透過特定的穩定幣商去做這樣的合作我想那個層面蠻多的"},{"start":33074.292,"end":33093.397,"text":"特別是剛剛提到這家其實在國際上面它有它很大的特色它是一個受監管比較低度的一個美國穩定幣發行商它比如現在的潮流是希望能夠接受高度的監管泰達它也想說可不可以在有些境內接受高度的監管境外它還是維持這樣這個東西我們"},{"start":33095.758,"end":33114.847,"text":"當然就以犯罪增防的角度的話任何有助於這個當然可以做但是我們現在未來會有自己的穩定幣的發行還有就是說還有怎麼樣跟國際上面的這些已經發行的穩定幣做合作我想這部分可能是我們未來會按照不同的屬性來進行這樣一個討論跟合作"},{"start":33120.128,"end":33143.855,"text":"我只是把這個問題先提出來先做好準備因為過去美國的司法部有成功的案例比如說有潛力的話就可以去遵循潛力特別是在我們能夠努力的方向之一我們先做好防堵未來才可以做有效的去打擊犯罪接下來可能要請教院長跟法務部麻煩請法務部長備詢"},{"start":33153.211,"end":33166.072,"text":"部長 我們想請教一下最近這幾年 任何一年都沒關係因為這個詐欺罪 出獄的受刑人兩年內的再犯率你覺得大概是多少"},{"start":33167.297,"end":33179.91,"text":"這部分我沒有目前沒有數據我會後再提供我們有這個數據因為我們從法務部那邊提出來我想說你的概念上面可能有沒有大概是三分之一還是五分之一還是四分之一其實是23.2%這個數字那我為什麼講這個數字"},{"start":33184.674,"end":33202.487,"text":"是因為我們如果做統計的話我們做案件來去審理的話我們會看到每年都是數以萬計那個數字是很大的但是如果我們以人追案的話我們找這些有高度的再犯率的有前科的那我們可以發覺到這些人是反覆犯案"},{"start":33204.056,"end":33214.43,"text":"一年內的再犯比例是16.7%這都是法務部的這些記錄所以說他們重新返回犯罪的速度是極快的所以監禁的嚇阻效果為什麼沒有"},{"start":33216.011,"end":33243.763,"text":"這個犯罪持續案它變成是治安上面的一個頑疾所以高度再犯率它凸顯出現在的矯正教化還有出獄之後的追蹤體系是不是對詐欺犯沒有產生有效的嚇阻作用所以現在打詐的政策不斷的經濟但是預防再犯我認為這個是可以解決的因為我們擁有他的過去的犯罪的記錄我們知道他過去犯罪的手法我們有他的資料之後甚至我們可以查出他背後的犯罪集團"},{"start":33244.483,"end":33261.779,"text":"所以我們可以在源頭管理環節上面來去阻止這樣子的犯罪所以說我們要切入這個再犯率的核心怎麼樣去降低這樣子的再犯率所以這個是一個很重要的一個數據這個統計上面我想部長可不可以跟我們講一下未來你的這個經濟方案"},{"start":33263.78,"end":33291.099,"text":"我想目前的大部分的這些的詐欺犯他在整個判決確定的一個刑度大部分都集中在一年或者是到這個是車手部分如果說單純的那個人頭賬戶這邊都是一年以下居多我想這個有他社會的一個原因我想會參加詐團一定是一個觀念偏差尤其是金錢官的一個"},{"start":33292.019,"end":33306.449,"text":"觀念的一個篇章那我想在整個一個預防面的如果說有道監獄裡面我想這部分我想我們再加強再做一個教化另外在那個我也關心的"},{"start":33306.849,"end":33333.544,"text":"这个再犯率的问题事实上我们那个诈欺危害防治条例对这种在我们怕有这种所以在一个长期比较诈骗人多的这种的刑度比较高的这种我们这个在假释这部分我们新的法律是规定是三分之二出犯了出犯三分之二那另外累犯的话是四分之三如果三犯的话就没有假释的这种的优惠"},{"start":33334.344,"end":33347.153,"text":"那我想執行刑期的一個長團與活並不代表就是說一個教化的一個成功那我想我們這個委員關心的這預防再犯這個教化這部分我們再跟矯正署我們再來做一個經濟"},{"start":33348.849,"end":33370.308,"text":"賀祖利然後剛才部長說會提供給我們這些統計數字我想說有這個詐騙前科犯加上這個再犯我們這些多一點數字出來之後有數字我們才可以做一個數字的政策導向政策工具才可以進去那另外委員關心的就是為什麼再犯因為再犯的話我想會再檢討那個言語對 我們先從"},{"start":33371.449,"end":33388.861,"text":"因為我現在手上沒有炸雞犯的有前科的犯罪這幾年的波動我們知道這個之後我們就大概知道說可能我們可以專注在已經有犯罪紀錄所以包含這一個全國的炸雞犯的資料庫或者是高風險的資料庫我們有沒有建制"},{"start":33389.973,"end":33410.812,"text":"這部分我們再來了解有沒有考慮堅持一下我為什麼這麼講的原因是因為你知道現在我們來思考一下就是說這應該有吧有 這個可以國際出來我要講這句話的原因是說全國的這個詐欺犯的資料庫我為什麼講這件事情包含我們現在ATM有限額包含我們這個高度的銀行監管"},{"start":33411.452,"end":33436.001,"text":"這種高度的銀行監管其實國內外許多媒體都在對台灣的銀行體制有做出一些 頗有微詞比方說他們說對居留者的移民對銀行與保險公司的過度監管開設台灣銀行這樣非常困難即使有配偶也往往需要經過漫長還有繁瑣的流程為什麼會這樣因為我們要防堵詐欺"},{"start":33436.821,"end":33454.945,"text":"為什麼要防堵詐欺來影響一般民眾呢這就是我們的癥結點就是說怎麼樣針對這些已經有犯罪前科的已經是再犯 三犯那這些人都還持續的沒有辦法來去嚇阻他們第一個是沒辦法嚇阻第二個是沒辦法教化"},{"start":33455.345,"end":33479.978,"text":"那我們接下來的做法是什麼這個部分我想部長能夠給我們一個更好的一個說明的方式執行完畢的這些的受刑人這個就是進入到更生人的這個身份那這部分受保護管束或者是假設屬於受保護管束的以及更生這部分我們再來努力再從那個柔性司法這邊我們再努力來協助他互歸社會那我想一個會介紹的可能是"},{"start":33480.838,"end":33505.625,"text":"金錢官的一個偏差或者是因為迫於他的沒有收入或者家庭的一個貧困等等那我想會檢討這個檢視他的原因因為我們在矯正署裡面我相信也有一些的社公司心理師我想如果說對有在犯或者出犯的在監執行我們會試圖去了解他的為什麼要犯罪的原因我想這個在一個刑案的過程"},{"start":33506.305,"end":33521.332,"text":"之後他會更容易去把它表達出來好 我們一起找方法好不好 部長好 謝謝就是我們提出一個對岸來那我們有數據那我們就可以來去看數據有沒有變化院長我們接下來就是來討論這一次的打炸的數據"},{"start":33522.999,"end":33547.795,"text":"這次的數據剛才其實院長都有提到有一些數據的調整的原因是因為警政署從113年9月起他將情案發生的計算方式由一案一發生改為受領報案被害人一發生數所以說我剛剛看到專報上面有用圖表畫了一個回歸線他說詐騙案件是長期每月減350件"},{"start":33550.417,"end":33565.645,"text":"數字下降當然是好事但是如果只看下降趨勢沒有做比較或者是沒有對照組就沒有辦法去排除其他的原因我們看到只有2013年8月到2014年7月但是如果說我們之前的數據都在的話只是因為"},{"start":33566.701,"end":33589.848,"text":"方式不同 我們還是可以做一些跟過去的對照因為打炸這個東西不可能一年就見效它必須要有一個數據作為一個佐證那來去告訴我們說比方說你說季節性的波動那這樣的統計解讀在科學上和政策上站不站得住腳那我們要的是政策效果政策效果把它做了之後那數據上面有沒有反應出來所以這不是單一的趨勢線"},{"start":33591.738,"end":33618.532,"text":"院長 行政院手上一定會有一個完整的歷史數據跟區域數據我們就可以用更嚴謹的方法例如用雙重差異的分析比較政策前後不同地區的變化差異當我們排除外部因素之後我們就可以知道我們的政策工具有沒有真正發揮作用所以如果未來我們下次報告提供分析的時候我希望這個時長再長一點因為3月跟4月 4月跟5月5月跟6月的比較我剛剛看到很多委員在做比較"},{"start":33619.793,"end":33646.728,"text":"對我來說這個統計上面的意義或者是政策上面實施之後有沒有顯著的差別我認為這沒有辦法做出有效的分辨所以在數據上面變化的這個趨勢我還是希望說未來行政院上面可以給我們一個更完整的數據這樣我們才知道說我們的政策到底有沒有用比方說剛才其實有很多委員都提到這個第17條得檢刑的這個要件"},{"start":33649.829,"end":33676.059,"text":"這個東西到底是有沒有辦法嚇阻這個炸雞飯剛才有很多的討論說之後司法院跟法務部討論之後很快的可能會有調整等等沒有關係 我們都是希望有調整但是有調整之後會不會有更好的效果我們就要用數據來去佐證我想這些都是今天講的這個目的接下來想要討論一下用智慧化的管理來去降低"},{"start":33678.508,"end":33690.557,"text":"炸機阻斷上次打炸中心的執密有提到調降ATM的限額沒關係 我們打炸中心的代表都可以"},{"start":33692.591,"end":33714.41,"text":"有提到說調降這個限額是為了阻斷詐騙的金流這個決心我們是絕對去支持的但是一個好的政策就如同我剛剛說到的不要因為防堵犯罪來去犧牲守法民眾的日常便利現在的做法是不是無形中反而造成那些守法的民眾的不便"},{"start":33716.701,"end":33732.408,"text":"我們並不是要求無上限或者是特別調高而是要回歸正常限制的措施應該是例外而不是作為常態所以說比方說你會清楚的風險管控你又導入用戶行為的模式那執行的識別異常的提臉"},{"start":33733.268,"end":33757.964,"text":"那如果說用戶的行為平常一個月才領一萬的今天突然要領十萬那我們要自動或者是就來調整他的這個提領的上限而不是說一概的全面的把提領的上限來去做調整我想請教一下像這樣子偵測用戶長期嚴重不符合的高風險停款行為即時自動的提領上限在技術上可不可行"},{"start":33759.647,"end":33783.499,"text":"這個跟委員報告一下有關前陣子很多銀行他不是把全面停掉他對他的宿存客戶就是數位開戶的宿存客戶就是其實他是比較特別如果前陣子委員有注意到的話就對於所謂用我們自然能憑證去單憑自然能憑證去開戶的時候因為這很明顯的他比一般的賬戶這個詐騙的機率高了將近有八九倍這樣對"},{"start":33785.29,"end":33809.282,"text":"就各種不同的開戶數所以他們先啟動一個風險控管機制那我馬上也跟銀行講說你不可以用去風險的經驗所以你要開始找到一個平衡以後逐步開放像剛才講的他們在九月的時候就會逐步按照這個方式來做因為突然發現說大量使用這樣的這個方式進行詐騙所以我們必須他們就啟動他們自發性的風險管理機制來進行那我們也"},{"start":33810.802,"end":33834.396,"text":"跟銀行提醒說不可以全面這樣來做他們也開始會按照這來做我要提醒這件事情的原因是因為剛才我也提到了現在台灣已經走向世界我們的產業也是走向國際化有越來越多旅台的其他國籍的人士商務人士台灣遇到的商務問題通常就是在銀行上面的問題我們不能為了綁賭放罪來犧牲這些民眾的權益謝謝委員這問題"},{"start":33851.33,"end":33855.094,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員的資訊也謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長"},{"start":33856.829,"end":33880.939,"text":"謝謝報言會 我們本日排定質詢的委員均已經質詢完畢非常感謝卓院長以及相關部會首長的列席答詢先來做以下決定一 將各委員會發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院請就未答覆的部分予以書面答覆二 已提出這書面質詢尚未登載公報者一律補刊"},{"start":33882.113,"end":33890.733,"text":"包園會八月十九號星期二上午九點我們繼續開會進行全額撥付一百一四年度"},{"start":33892.035,"end":33913.307,"text":"對地方政府之一般性補助款及援助民族地區基本設施維持費等相關事宜專案報告並被質詢今天再一次感謝我們劉淑冰委員我們林楚英委員一起參與我們今天的專案報告再一次謝謝卓院長 各部會首長我們現在休息"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}