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部長您風災過後您到我高雄的重災區山區南馬俠桃園茂林走過嗎"},{"start":36.21,"end":61.581,"text":"到目前还没有还没有但您跟我你没有到我高雄的重灾区那您到高雄这边可能问过全国老百姓大概印象最深刻的就是您跟我们中小企业组的座谈发声的邀请我们中小企业组投资这个美国4000亿的举例以云之后呢经济部呢花了两天的时间说明"},{"start":62.401,"end":88.707,"text":"那我為什麼提到重災區呢我本席非常的不滿我看到您通篇的報告您說您去了嘉義去了台南這還是你們的訪視訪問團喔有到台北有到嘉義市這個台南嘉義就沒有到我高雄的重災區您知道高雄的重災區呀這三區發生了什麼事情呢來這個新聞"},{"start":92.353,"end":111.262,"text":"颱風過後喝山泉水喝到沒命高雄風災山人懶類比取往這個類比取啊死亡率45%到75%所以說呢也就是說你對於山區重災區之後道路中斷水跟電完全沒有斷水斷電"},{"start":113.398,"end":138.661,"text":"電你們從以前到現在都有講到電韌性花了將近4000到5000多億來做電網韌性所以到山區啊大概台電也都知道我趕快要布建這個微電網都已經有這個政策的預算而這將近5000億的電韌性是誰給的不是你不本不給的是行政院重視行政院給的錢那水韌性呢"},{"start":140.202,"end":155.185,"text":"部長 這個我完全沒有看到經濟部部本部你水電的任性你是主責機關欸是經濟部對於水電任性你是規劃欸但你們沒有喔"},{"start":155.645,"end":182.504,"text":"這不是台水跟台電的工作而且包括這個台水本身它最主要的工作是什麼它只做漏 它只做防漏然後呢 這個汰換水管那汰換水管的錢到現在它都得借錢你們喔 這了不起啦齁在王美花部長這邊啊 捐取了八十億分四年給一年二十億都不夠二十億放在我高雄都不夠"},{"start":183.993,"end":208.214,"text":"所以呢在這個水韌性當中你看我們福倫社都還會趕快的去捐這個災區喔仿山鄉屏東兩部淨水器一部淨水器重達2到3公斤輕輕的而且也不用電大概花台幣10萬塊那他送兩部可以一部可以過濾20萬公升的飲用水"},{"start":210.512,"end":239.825,"text":"我的水公司包括經濟部本部你們完全沒想到喔這是趕快用一個淨水器讓大家在這個趕快的只要任何的水下去就過濾了 也沒有裡面最基礎的淨水錠也沒有這個過膜酸鉀錠至少也給災區通通沒有所以部長你怎麼看這件事情報告委員 您所指摘的部分"},{"start":240.436,"end":252.162,"text":"是我們水利署要跟地方政府共同去處理的事情不是只有我們自來水公司那水公司有所謂這個水韌性的這件事情在規劃嗎"},{"start":257.533,"end":284.264,"text":"那我是不是請自來水公司跟你報告一下你讓水公司來回答我我政府的水韌性部長你有沒有搞錯啊一個電網的韌性都要5400億行政院院長當做當做這個政績在宣傳5400億的電網韌性你現在說一個水韌性所以要謙虛一點沒錯就沒想到就說沒想到這樣的危機你要重視"},{"start":285.524,"end":314.025,"text":"部長你不認為水韌性這件事情你應該要一定要這是新的東西 就算你沒有 你說你感到抱歉那我覺得這個確實是這風災當中讓我們忽略了這樣的一個議題所以你要報部本部你讓一個水公司 水公司都不夠給我站在這邊 給我講水韌性水公司是誰來 你敢講水韌性的東西喔 那我就要問你囉來 來 水公司你要講嗎我不回答水公司 我最挺水公司了啦我覺得你們可憐啦"},{"start":315.373,"end":331.162,"text":"哪有到現在執行政府的最主要的預算太舊換新的這個水管竟然還在用借錢部長不重視行政院根本也不知道我們的苦楚講任性吧 誰任性"},{"start":335.719,"end":351.641,"text":"謝謝委員 委員對台水公司確實非常非常的協助也幫忙非常多那我想剛剛委員所指的部分這一次因為是一個颱風的部分我想我知道委員最主要是說當這些比較偏遠山區的部分的"},{"start":352.282,"end":375.279,"text":"大宇跟高所的部分也希望台水这边也能尽量的赶快来看有没有一些过滤的一些快滤的过滤桶也许可能我们做的还不够那委员这样的指正我们未来会有如果想办法把这个移动的过滤桶赶快去来解决让民众当下能赶快解决至于这个供水的任性的部分我想经济部其实也积极在做做什么来你说"},{"start":376.059,"end":394.535,"text":"我想我們當然就是一個開發水源跟一個水源的一個區域的調度的部分這個會來做那當然沒有錯大概總預算要多少那整個時候執行完電網韌性5400億的電網韌性5400億是有執行有執行業務也有清楚的執行期限的來您說看看"},{"start":395.856,"end":415.07,"text":"委員當然是高度非常夠 這個整個供水的韌性確實是一個涵蓋非常廣我真的覺得你真的很有擔當你要來回答本席水熱性的東西 部長你放在後面至少水利署要來講話 水利署沒有來也不講話 部長你不講話 部長"},{"start":417.091,"end":443.983,"text":"我真的覺得齁這個一個領導人從哪裡可以看出這個領導人的特質跟能力從危機當中看出一個領導人的危機跟能力如果本席點出的這種的韌性也是有平時的水韌性喔有平時時期的水韌性你怎麼做你在危機時候的水韌性怎麼做城鄉之泉的分布來副總那個您下去吧"},{"start":446.345,"end":474.431,"text":"部長我再給你一個機會你認得水韌性要怎麼說 怎麼做呢有電網韌性 水韌性要怎麼說呢跟委員抱歉喔水的部分我不是專家所以我沒有辦法回應你的問題沒有辦法回應喔你要不要做什麼改進我們會 我回去會要求水利署一起來重視委員所指責的這個問題什麼時候提出這個水韌性的這樣的方案是什麼時候"},{"start":476.305,"end":503.067,"text":"我們一個禮拜好了一個禮拜喔好你不要只聽那個副總副總我真的覺得你很棒你真的很有承擔但是我覺得你的成績不夠成平時後該有怎麼樣的包括你們太舊換新的水管這件事情都應該趕快的列入這個任性裡面甚至你的任性你的電網任性要不要解決你公司的債務讓你永續經營這都可以考慮喔"},{"start":504.728,"end":531.479,"text":"包括你們對於高廢水 高耗水的部分你什麼開源跟節流嘛 這都是不是要納入 積極的去導入包括災後的時候的這個水韌性當中這部分不應該講的 一個禮拜做得出來 我覺得很奇怪然後這個東西是你要跟行政院來做來跟你的主計處 跟行政院院長這邊是要做溝通的"},{"start":532.917,"end":554.119,"text":"部長我認為我再講一次危機的時候才可以看出一個領導人的一個特質跟能力是不是擔任是不是適合做決策者是不是適合來做我真認為您自己在這個內閣當中的角色其實你應該是要自己重新評估而不是變成"},{"start":555.66,"end":580.565,"text":"是希望你不要再拉垮左內閣的整個的民調也最重要的是對於我們災民讓災民有感是一個有溫度有靠山的政府好以上謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝等一下那個蕭副總那個一個禮拜是只有那個高雄還是全台灣的評估只有高雄是不是"},{"start":584.827,"end":608.309,"text":"我非常感謝主席延續我的議題 這樣的程序問題主席我是不是請你裁示 我覺得一個禮拜做不出來因為是包括整個全台灣的水韌性 比照台電韌性的問題所以請主席是不是 我認為我願意給他多一點時間至少三個禮拜到一個月 一個禮拜是不可能做出來連彰化等等 他是要去做盤點"},{"start":610.325,"end":639.084,"text":"这个不是只有针对灾区也是整个做盘点林委员你要求的是全台湾的水韧性的计划而不是高雄的水韧性计划那请经济部回去再评估再提出相关全台湾的水韧性的计划那是不是我请主席是不是参考一下一个月内提出来全台的水韧性的这个方案那郭部长是不是能够一个月内全台湾的"},{"start":641.325,"end":643.506,"text":"好那就一個月提出全臺灣的水韌性的相關計畫現在請陳廷飛委員做詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時34分）有請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，風災過後，您到我們高雄的重災區、山區──那瑪夏、桃源、茂林等三區走過嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：到目前還沒有。"],["林委員岱樺：還沒有。您沒有到我們高雄的重災區，但是您到高雄這邊可能問過全國老百姓，大概印象最深刻的就是您跟中小企業主的座談，發生了邀請中小企業投資美國4,000億的舉例疑雲，之後經濟部花了兩天的時間說明。我為什麼提到重災區呢？本席非常地不滿，因為我看到了您通篇的報告，您說您去了嘉義，去了臺南，這還是你們的訪問團，有到嘉義市、臺南，就沒有到我們高雄的重災區。","您知道高雄的重災區、山區發生了什麼事情呢？新聞報導的標題：「颱風過後『喝山泉水』喝到沒命！高雄風災3人染類鼻疽亡」，類鼻疽的死亡率高達45%到75%。也就是說，山區、重災區在災後道路中斷，水跟電完全沒有，也就是斷水斷電。從以前到現在，你們都有講到電韌性，花了四千到五千多億做電網韌性，所以大概台電也都知道要趕快到山區布建微電網，都已經有這個政策及預算，而這五千多億的電韌性預算是誰給的？不是你們部本部給的，是行政院因為重視而給的錢。","那水韌性呢？部長，我完全沒有看到經濟部部本部，經濟部是水、電韌性的主責機關，負責規劃，但你們沒有，這不是台水和台電的工作。而且台水本身最主要的工作是什麼？它只做防漏、汰換水管，但台水汰換水管的錢到現在都得借錢支應。你們了不起，在王美花前部長任內爭取了80億分4年給，一年20億，20億放在我們高雄都不夠！所以在水韌性當中，你看，扶輪社都還會趕快到災區的屏東枋山鄉捐贈2部淨水器，一部淨水器只有2到3公斤，輕輕的，而且也不用電，大概花臺幣10萬塊。扶輪社送2部淨水器，一部可以過濾20萬公升的飲用水，但是水公司、包括經濟部部本部完全沒想到是不是趕快提供淨水器，任何水下去就過濾了，你們也沒有！連裡面最基礎的淨水錠也沒有，至少也要給災區過錳酸鉀錠，統統沒有！所以部長，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您所指摘的部分是我們水利署要跟地方政府共同去處理的事情，不是只有自來水公司……"],["林委員岱樺：水利署？"],["郭部長智輝：不是我們自來水公司自己做過的。"],["林委員岱樺：不是自來水公司，那水公司有針對水韌性這件事情在規劃嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請自來水公司跟您報告一下？"],["林委員岱樺：你讓水公司來回答我政府的水韌性？部長，你有沒有搞錯啊？一個電網的韌性都要5,400億，行政院院長當作政績在宣傳5,400億的電網韌性，你現在說一個水韌性……所以，要謙虛一點，沒想到就說沒想到，這樣的危機你要重視！部長，你不認為水韌性這件事情應該要、一定要……這是新的東西，就算你沒有，你說你感到抱歉，覺得這個確實是風災當中你們忽略了這樣的議題，所以要到部本部。你讓一個水公司回答，水公司都不夠站在這邊跟我講水韌性！","水公司是誰來？你敢講水韌性的東西喔？那我就要問你了。來，水公司，你要講嗎？我不為難水公司，我最挺水公司了，我覺得你們可憐啊！哪有到現在執行政府最主要的預算，結果水管汰舊換新的經費竟然還在用借錢！部長不重視，行政院根本也不知道你們的苦處。講水韌性吧！"],["蕭副總經理淑貞：謝謝委員。委員對台水公司確實非常、非常地協助，也幫忙非常多。剛剛委員所指的部分、這次颱風的部分，最主要是當這些比較偏遠山區在大雨及高所的部分，希望台水也能儘量地趕快看看能不能有一些過濾的快濾過濾桶，也許可能我們做得還不夠，對於委員這樣的指正，我們未來會想辦法把移動過濾桶的問題趕快解決，讓民眾當下能趕快解決問題。至於供水韌性的部分，我想經濟部其實也積極在做……"],["林委員岱樺：做什麼？來，你說！"],["蕭副總經理淑貞：就是開發水源及水源的區域調度，這個會來做，當然沒有錯……"],["林委員岱樺：大概總預算要多少？什麼時候時候執行完？5,400億的電網韌性是有執行業務、也有清楚的執行期限的。來，您說看看。"],["蕭副總經理淑貞：委員的高度當然非常夠，整個供水的韌性確實是一個涵蓋非常廣……"],["林委員岱樺：副總經理，我覺得你真的很有擔當，你要來回答本席水韌性的東西，部長站在後面，至少水利署要來講話，水利署沒有來，也不講話，部長也不講話。","部長，我真的覺得從哪裡可以看出一個領導人的特質跟能力？從危機當中可以看出一個領導人的危機處理跟能力。本席點出的韌性，有平時執行的水韌性怎麼做，也有在危機時候的水韌性要怎麼做，還有城鄉之間的分布。副總，您下去吧。部長，我再給你一個機會，你認為水韌性要怎麼做呢？有電網韌性，水韌性要怎麼做呢？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員抱歉，水的部分我不是專家，所以我沒有辦法回應你的問題。"],["林委員岱樺：沒有辦法回應喔？"],["郭部長智輝：嗯。"],["林委員岱樺：那你要不要做什麼改進？要不要做什麼檢討？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去會要求水利署一起來重視委員所指責的問題。"],["林委員岱樺：什麼時候提出水韌性的方案？什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一個禮拜好了。"],["林委員岱樺：一個禮拜？好。你不要只聽副總。副總，我真的覺得你很棒，你真的很有承擔，但是我覺得你的層級不夠。承平時候該有怎麼樣的做法，包括水管汰舊換新這件事情，都應該趕快列入這樣的韌性裡面，甚至電網韌性那些要不要解決公司的債務、讓你永續經營，這些都可以考慮。包括你們對於高廢水、高耗水的部分要怎麼開源跟節流，這些都要納入、積極地去導入，還有包括災後的水韌性等等，這些都應該是部本部要講的，一個禮拜做得出來，我也覺得很奇怪。然後這個東西是你要跟行政院、主計總處、行政院院長做溝通的。","部長，我再講一次，危機的時候才可以看出一個領導人的特質跟能力，以及是不是適合做決策者。我真的認為您對於自己在這個內閣當中的角色，其實應該自己重新評估，而不是變成……希望你不要再拉垮卓內閣整個的民調，最重要的是讓災民有感，成為有溫度、有靠山的政府。以上，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","蕭副總，等一下，一個禮拜是只有高雄，還是全臺灣的評估？"],["郭部長智輝：高雄。"],["主席：只有高雄，是不是？"],["林委員岱樺：我補充一下，不好意思，這不是質詢。我非常感謝主席延續我的議題。主席，我是不是請你裁示，我覺得一個禮拜做不出來，因為是包括整個全臺灣的水韌性，比照台電韌性的問題，所以我願意多給他一點時間，至少三個禮拜到一個月。一個禮拜是不可能做出來的，連彰化等等，他們要先去做盤點欵！這不是只有針對災區，而是整個做盤點。謝謝主席。"],["主席：林委員，你要求的是全臺灣的水韌性計畫，而不是高雄的水韌性計畫？"],["林委員岱樺：對，是的。"],["主席：請經濟部回去再評估，再提出相關全臺灣的水韌性計畫。"],["林委員岱樺：請主席參考一下，是不是一個月內提出來全臺的水韌性方案？"],["主席：郭部長，是不是能夠在1個月內提出全臺灣的？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去跟水利署討論。1個月、1個月。"],["主席：好。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝主席。"],["主席：那就1個月提出全臺灣的水韌性相關計畫。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站"},{"start":350.1,"end":374.517,"text":"以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一年疫情都會受到我們這個"},{"start":376.438,"end":394.719,"text":"全國同胞的這個嚴格檢定然後特別是災區的這個鄉親們那我想要先請教一下次長這次的這個防護你們好像比較偏重在這個失眠粉塵的這個部分那除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎"},{"start":399.71,"end":415.476,"text":"跟委員報告 除了那個N95口罩 我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套 還有防護衣你們還有一個 太空包你們還提供了太空包我們是裝在防護包裡面"},{"start":418.007,"end":438.645,"text":"所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂啦都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空"},{"start":440.216,"end":460.045,"text":"太空包裝的是那個裝你們去裝那些拆下來的拆下來的石棉瓦拆下來的石棉瓦是放在放在太空包好那沒有錯那沒有錯好那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來"},{"start":462.045,"end":474.955,"text":"好 那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果嘛那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎"},{"start":478.632,"end":501.574,"text":"跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南水官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎"},{"start":507.81,"end":530.503,"text":"基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個聯型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有"},{"start":532.12,"end":554.777,"text":"鬍子嗎 會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍 有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢 如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了"},{"start":556.656,"end":572.865,"text":"是 它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是比較一般性的測試啦對 所以有鬍子是有幫助的"},{"start":573.405,"end":595.692,"text":"因為空間 空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們今天在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些飛機我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的"},{"start":596.212,"end":621.186,"text":"那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄"},{"start":625.017,"end":644.721,"text":"如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把他洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答"},{"start":647.682,"end":665.779,"text":"那你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維那當地呢又停水停電洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是"},{"start":669.022,"end":694.195,"text":"那這邊我們來看一張這張圖在失眠放大之後失眠瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右"},{"start":694.855,"end":707.13,"text":"但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝"},{"start":708.274,"end":735.585,"text":"但是呢 中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好 到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看 別人等到死那沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片"},{"start":737.242,"end":761.755,"text":"石棉瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嗎要稍微隔離一下也都沒有啊然後呢我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包"},{"start":762.85,"end":776.996,"text":"太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉瓦的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗"},{"start":778.317,"end":798.985,"text":"好 然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後就 然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊好 所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是 這反而是很不好的"},{"start":800.205,"end":822.411,"text":"那我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外呢附近的人也會遭受到暴露嘛特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的這個研究跟宣導嘛那還有包括你們那個勞動部這個重建中心的這些同仁"},{"start":823.371,"end":845.109,"text":"難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣子的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測有沒有"},{"start":848.021,"end":868.184,"text":"有做嗎目前是跟那個我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所是準備開始要進行的所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了"},{"start":872.347,"end":893.24,"text":"8月6號我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場沒關係反正你們已經啟動不管來不來得及總是比沒有好那這次的這個實面暴露高風險的事件有這個專業SENS的單位他們一定會去做研究然後把相關作業的勞工名單清澈都建立起來"},{"start":893.74,"end":907.113,"text":"就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊"},{"start":910.874,"end":935.277,"text":"各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊去追蹤我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊"},{"start":936.98,"end":943.918,"text":"那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有名車我們也有好就要好好的追蹤好"},{"start":946.202,"end":968.264,"text":"我們再看簡報6的部分右邊是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的石棉瓦的暫時放置為了避免石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來專業程度就立判高下"},{"start":969.545,"end":997.511,"text":"他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說我的形容叫做我不認為這個叫做有以身作則啦反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的"},{"start":998.331,"end":1010.14,"text":"跌倒 踩踏 切割 穿刺 滑倒 高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效"},{"start":1012.282,"end":1036.861,"text":"報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求"},{"start":1037.641,"end":1056.048,"text":"指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的"},{"start":1057.989,"end":1081.854,"text":"業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的"},{"start":1082.734,"end":1103.932,"text":"相應的處理從業中心是請國內的相關營造業者以一環計及的方式用公辦的方式去做相應的協助那在相關的處理當做過程裡面包括鷹架的搭設各方面都會都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理那至於剛才我們所講的數據的部分我們會後再來做統整"},{"start":1105.489,"end":1126.367,"text":"好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速再問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要"},{"start":1128.369,"end":1154.609,"text":"這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多"},{"start":1156.546,"end":1171.659,"text":"這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有 我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊 台東有去嗎"},{"start":1178.922,"end":1203.252,"text":"就沒有嗎我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能可能那種就是高價墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧"},{"start":1206.138,"end":1227.518,"text":"好那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠"},{"start":1230.919,"end":1240.715,"text":"我覺得跟在地災民這個感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意那不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業"},{"start":1242.582,"end":1267.929,"text":"要用心認真相信民眾就會有感那提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視"},{"start":1269.114,"end":1277.86,"text":"好 謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它Reit得更清楚謝謝我們的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整一點好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時18分）謝謝主席，我先會議詢問一下，你可以先請坐。"],["主席：是。"],["陳委員瑩：最近其實立法院加減都有一些同仁做聽力測驗，發現聽力有一些受損，聽力受損並不是在於聲音大小聲聽不見，倒不是這樣，而是對於高頻或低頻等特定頻率的聲音會聽不清楚，是聽得到聲音，但聽不清楚，當然這與長期處於噪音或者很大聲的環境有關係，所以我在這邊要替大家爭取健康的權益，畢竟我們衛環委員會是掌管監督勞動部、衛福部跟環境部，重點是勞工可以申請職災，如果真的是因為工作環境的關係聽力受損，鑑定之後，可以申請職災，但是現場大部分是公務人員，還有我們這種公職人員，我們是沒有這種待遇的。雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了分貝測試儀器，但是我也不是很確定我們在質詢時的這個角度，是不是會看那邊還是看哪邊，而且即使那個數字超標，也不會嗶、不會叫，所以講話的人就不會控制音量。我要說的是，一個人大概10分鐘連續處於70分貝以上的環境，就會覺得心情很煩躁，常常心情煩躁，可能未來憂鬱症、躁鬱症等都會跑出來。再者，有些立委真的聲音很大，常常超過80分貝，這個真的會對聽力直接造成損害，我不是開玩笑，所以我真的建議，大家年紀也有了，要去做聽力測驗，特別是有關音頻高頻、低頻部分，到底聽不聽得到，大家真的要去檢查一下，我想身為衛環委員會委員，我們沒有辦法要求委員在每一次質詢時，音量都要控制在70分貝以下，但是我們有音控，音控坐在那邊，看得到那個分貝的數字嗎？你如果看不到，那我們可能要跟總務處講一下，看要怎麼讓你隨時掌控這個數據，因為你們坐在這邊是一整天連續幾個小時，我這樣講有沒有道理？對啊！在座各位都是公務人員，你們不能申請職災賠償，我先把醜話講在前頭，我剛剛查了一下法規，只有意外死亡有，所以針對這個部分，我想我們是衛環委員會，最起碼應該要以身作則，第一個，這個測分貝儀器的擺放位置，是不是能夠讓大家看的很清楚，特別是在講話的人？最好超標的時候，它會嗶、會叫，提醒一定要小聲一點，因為除了很大聲以外，講話時間也不會控制，還要看心情，你管了一下搞不好又吵起來，會大聲更久。我真的觀察很久，也忍耐很久了，我覺得為了大家聽力的健康，請我們衛環委員會以身作則，擔任主席、擔任召委的人對於我們質詢環境的音量可以有所掌控，我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議，謝謝。主席，你有要回應一下嗎？"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員剛剛語重心長給大家的提示，但因為剛好召委不在，我會把您的意見充分反映給他參考，那我們……"],["陳委員瑩：跟次長一樣，主席可以裁示。"],["主席：不過剛剛建議如果它的音量或者是CO2的濃度超過一定的標準，而且是損害到健康的話，我們可以洽請秘書處，反映是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道，我們所處的環境裡面應該要做哪一些處理。"],["陳委員瑩：主席跟我就在這裡具體建議，這個部分一定要改善跟控管，謝謝。","主席，麻煩請勞動部次長。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長明仁：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：次長好。這次丹娜絲颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情，很多臺南沿海地區鄉親們的屋頂都被吹走了，其實看了也是讓人家覺得很揪心、很同情。我知道你們勞動部也成立了4個災後防護服務站以及宣導團，部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場關心，也致贈了一些宣導品，本席也給予勞動部的同仁肯定。但是災後防護不是兒戲，我們要用很嚴肅的態度面對它，因為一言一行都會受到全國同胞的嚴格檢定，特別是災區的鄉親們。我想要先請教一下次長，這次的防護你們好像比較偏重在石綿粉塵的部分，除了N95口罩以外，你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，除了N95口罩，我們還有護目鏡，還有防護手套，還有防護衣。"],["陳委員瑩：你們還有一個太空包，你們還提供了太空包。"],["林署長毓堂：對，我們是裝在太空包裡……不是，我們是裝在防護包裡面。"],["陳委員瑩：防護包？"],["林署長毓堂：對，防護包。"],["陳委員瑩：好，所以你不叫太空包，那個叫防護包是嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：裝石綿的是太空袋，我們俗稱稱為太空袋，那個是袋子。"],["陳委員瑩：太空袋？所以我講太空袋、太空包、防護包，你們都聽得懂啦？"],["林署長毓堂：聽得懂。"],["陳委員瑩：都是一樣的東西？"],["林署長毓堂：不一樣。"],["陳委員瑩：不一樣？"],["林署長毓堂：防護包是給個人的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那個叫什麼？太空……"],["陳次長明仁：防護包裝的是……"],["陳委員瑩：你們去裝那些拆下來的……"],["陳次長明仁：太空包裝的是拆下來的石綿瓦。"],["林署長毓堂：拆下來的石綿瓦。"],["陳委員瑩：拆下來的石綿瓦是放在？"],["陳次長明仁：太空包。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那沒有錯、沒有錯。那我剛剛一開始就沒有講錯啊！對啊！那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來？次長，我們再看一下，N95口罩其實要能夠密合才有防護的效果，那你們的輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，在我們的宣導品裡面是有，如果說影片的話，我們在職安署的官網上也有佩戴N95口罩的示範影片。"],["陳委員瑩：好。因為我知道部長也有去示範，請問一下，部長鬍子這麼濃密，戴N95口罩是戴得牢嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：基本上跟委員報告，N95我們買的是3M的，基本上佩戴的話，它還是符合一般人的臉型。"],["陳委員瑩：所以部長算一般人嗎？我會提這個，我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題，因為很多人他們會留鬍子，有的是上面八字鬍，有的是下面落腮鬍，落腮鬍應該是面積更大，你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候，在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理？因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢，如果沒有問題，你就跟我說沒有問題就好了。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，它是後面有一個束緊帶，基本上戴上去的話，我們測試來講，就是你在呼吸的時候，不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來，基本上它就是有一個比較一般性的測試啦！"],["陳委員瑩：所以有鬍子是有幫助的，因為空氣可能會比較多？但是現在我們在討論石綿，所以我現在提出的這個是很嚴肅的問題，畢竟要處理這些石綿的廢棄物，我們都需要用到N95的口罩，所以要戴牢是很重要的。如果真的有隔離石綿，石綿纖維就會吸附在口罩的罩體上，所以民眾取下來的時候，會不會沾在手上，然後再間接進入人體，有沒有這樣的可能性？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，石綿的危害主要是吸入，所以這個口罩如果他當天使用完的話，我們是建議要拋棄。如果手上有接觸到的話，現在我們的衛教宣導裡面也是希望要洗手，把它洗乾淨。"],["陳委員瑩：好。因為我現在講的每個環節，其實民眾都有可能會吸入這些纖維，所以我提到的，我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題實質的回答。你們應該提供實務上有用的資訊，例如身體皮膚、衣服上也有可能都有石綿纖維，當地又停水、停電，洗澡是不方便的，如何有效地解決石綿暴露的問題，你們應該要更專業才是。","我們來看這張圖，在石綿瓦放大之後，它就是無數根的鋼針，看起來很恐怖，這些石綿纖維被吸入我們人體之後，這些鋼針就會刺入肺泡，然後造成慢性發炎，潛伏期大概是15年到35年左右，但通常等到確診的時候，差不多都是晚期，必死無疑了啦！你再看一下這張照片，我們看一下，勞動部的人全副武裝，但是中間的民眾毫無防護，你們不是要去宣導嗎？這種場景很奇怪啊！到底這樣子的輔導防護，你們覺得有達到效果嗎？你們穿給別人看，別人沒穿也沒關係？我們接下來看這張照片，石綿瓦堆積的場地有人戴口罩，有人沒有戴，底下還有一支大鐵錘，表示這是破碎用的工具，難道不是應該拉起封鎖線稍微隔離一下嗎？也都沒有啊！","然後我另外再講一下剛剛講的太空包，太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石綿瓦的廢棄物，因為體積的關係，太空包就這麼大而已，你必須要先擊碎，去毀損這些石綿瓦，讓它變小一點之後，然後再放進去。這個擊碎的過程，你就會造成石綿瓦纖維溢散，所以這個是你們未來要去檢討思考的，每個人都在那邊敲敲打打，這個反而是很不好的。我想這樣子的作業環境，除了勞工很危險之外，附近的人也會遭受到暴露，特別是你們安研所的人，都是專門在負責勞工安全衛生的研究跟宣導，還有包括你們勞動部重建中心的這些同仁，難道都沒有具備這些常識嗎？這些防護的常識應該是他們要最清楚，比其他人更清楚才是啊！結果是做這樣子的示範。","我還想問一下，你們勞動部安研所有沒有去做石綿濃度的檢測？有沒有？有做嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，目前我們內部已經跟研究所談好了，外界也在關心這一次現場的暴露情形，所以我們研究所準備開始要進行了。"],["陳委員瑩：所以現在才準備開始進行？那前面敲敲打打去收的，那個都來不及了？對，可以了……"],["林署長毓堂：8月6號，我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場，以及在採樣……"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，反正你們已經啟動，不管來不來得及，總是比沒有好。這一次石綿暴露高風險的事件，有專業sense的單位一定會去做研究，然後把相關作業的勞工名單清冊都建立起來，萬一將來有人得到間皮細胞癌的時候，才可以得到應有的補償，你才有得追蹤嘛！所以我想要請教一下，我們剛剛看了幾張照片，這些人有沒有造冊？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們跟衛福部也討論過了，如果是涉及到營造業者的話，他未來會把名單送給我們，我們會到勞保局去追蹤……"],["陳委員瑩：我講的不是這些營造業者，是這些穿制服的，他們不是你們的人嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：穿……"],["陳委員瑩：等一下，看前面幾張照片，我是說這些穿背心的人。"],["林署長毓堂：對，那是我們的輔導員。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊，他們有沒有造冊……"],["林署長毓堂：有，我們也有名冊。"],["陳委員瑩：好，要好好的追蹤。我們再看簡報6的部分，右邊是環境部彭部長在風災後去到現場，後面有暫時放置受損的石綿瓦，為了避免石綿瓦的纖維逸散，所以他們先用帆布整個蓋起來，這個專業程度就高下立判，他們就沒有用太空包，所以這張照片比較起來，環境部就是「勝」！看起來比較專業。","關於你們這一次，我的形容是……我不認為這個叫做有以身作則，你們這次去輔導好像比較偏重在石綿，像其他的如跌倒、踩踏、切割、穿刺、滑倒、高架作業墜落，都沒有看到災後防護，我想請教一下次長，你們有沒有統計這一次服務及輔導的成效？"],["陳次長明仁：報告委員，謝謝委員苦民所苦，有關於石綿瓦這部分，環境部第一時間在臺南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場，但是相應的拆除工作，在一開始的現場，因為大概有3萬棟左右的房屋屋頂掀開受損，所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋帆布。下面的石綿會有一些問題，所以勞動部洪部長第一時間就要求職安署副署長下去前進指揮所，設了4個服務站及相關的輔導團，先備置了一些物資，讓大家能夠緊急使用。但是實際上，石綿拆除真的是一個專業的工作，這部分未來應該……目前我們跟環保署大家都在處理當中，應該由專業業者處理，至於相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些石綿軌跡的，我們都會把他造冊追蹤一些後續該注意的部分。","至於其他的部分，當然主要會是在剛開始的時候，疫情期間是在最早的時候，在屋頂爬上爬下，可能會有一些墜落的問題，所以後來屋頂相關的相應處理，重建中心是採移緩濟急的方式，用工班的方式去請國內相關的營造業者做相應的協助。在相關的處理過程裡面，包括鷹架的搭設各方面都有跟相關的從業人員做一些說明和處理。","至於剛剛委員所講關於數據的部分，我們會後再來統整給委員。"],["陳委員瑩：好，再麻煩你們把成果數據給我們辦公室。","另外我快速再問一下，因為我也覺得滿疑惑，難道只有臺南有防護站？但是雲林、嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有，是不是？是因為沒有防護的必要？"],["陳次長明仁：因為石綿是早期的產品，洪部長有指示研究所的危評組要去做石綿濃度的處理，這是第一件事情……"],["陳委員瑩：我這邊應該……"],["陳次長明仁：第二個部分是有關……"],["陳委員瑩：不好意思，災後防護不會只有石綿，我前面講石綿，我後面有講跌倒、踩踏、滑倒等等，很多這種高架作業墜落的災後防護。"],["陳次長明仁：我們在相應的措施上會再來注意……"],["陳委員瑩：所以目前是雲林、嘉義、高雄都沒有嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：都有。"],["陳委員瑩：都有？"],["陳次長明仁：我們有些是透過鄉公所或者是……"],["陳委員瑩：你們有去臺東嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：臺中？"],["陳委員瑩：臺東，臺東有去嗎？沒有嘛？我才去了一個學校，其棒球場的牛棚屋頂整個被吹破，它到時候可能也會有高架墜落作業的問題，也是會有啊！我是提醒你們要稍微注意評估一下啦！將來如果再有類似的風災，勞動部會比照這一次，就是再去現場提供災後防護的輔導嗎？未來都會吧？"],["陳次長明仁：會。"],["陳委員瑩：好，以前沒有看過你們有這樣的服務，雖然是災後過了好一段時間才去，但還是要給你們肯定，我希望未來這個期程可能要加速。","最後我再提醒勞動部，我們要去輔導民眾，除了專業要足夠外，我覺得要跟在地災民感同身受，並設身處地的去服務，這個也是要很注意，不是我們穿著背心就代表專業，要用心認真，相信民眾就會有感，提供服務的人員一定要有訓練，同時還要有專業，才可以提供更好的服務，不要只是去送東西，沒有考慮到民眾會不會用到、可以用多久，我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到……人家會反感啦，所以我在這邊提醒這些細節，要請你們要重視。"],["陳次長明仁：好，謝謝委員，有關相關細節的部分，我們會把它弄得更清楚，謝謝委員的指點，我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：本日會議詢答全部結束，委員盧縣一、楊曜、陳冠廷、徐欣瑩、何欣純所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請問：","去年底就服法46條修法通過，明訂雇主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作，被看護者凡是年齡滿80歲以上，或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者，得免經醫療機構之專業評估。","因此，勞動部預告3項法規修正：「雇主聘僱外國人許可及管理辦法」、「藍領審查標準」、「轉換雇主準則」。請說明：3項修正法規將如何使制度再精進？"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","壹、護理執業率創5年新低，衛福部如何精進政策工具？","問題：近日媒體報導，護理人員執業率創5年新低，為了留住護理人力，衛福部去年提出夜班獎勵金、試辦三班護病比等政策，又立法院調查報告指出，年資3個月以上護理離職率逾9成，護理執業率也未增，檢視衛福部最新統計，護理人員總執業率從2021年的63.44%一路下滑至今年6月的62.4%，創下近5年新低，顯示衛福部雖提出政策工具，盼留住護理人力，但至今護理師執業率仍未止跌回升，請教衛福部，如何精進政策工具，避免護理師執業率持續下滑？再者，即便護理師仍於醫療院所服務，但部分卻轉往基層醫療院所執業，為此，衛福部如何協助地區醫院以上層級醫院留住護理人力，避免因護理人力不足，導致無法開病床，造成急診壅塞狀況遲遲無法改善？又先前衛福部曾提出，要與考選部研議，提升護理師國家考試通過率，目前辦理情形為何？","貳、為因應八十歲免評聘看護移工勞動部與衛福部提出六大配套措施，如何確保重症家庭優先之餘也兼顧看護品質？","問題：針對就業服務法第46條修正條文，新增開放被看護者年齡滿80歲以上或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者，得免經醫療機構之專業評估，騁僱外籍家庭看護工。相關子法於日前上路，估計將增加10萬健康亞健康長者申請，恐衝擊重症家庭更難找人或留人，因此，勞動部提出六大配套措施如下：一、推動輕重分流重症優先，二、擴大重症多元免評資格，三、重症家庭國內承接最優先，四、協調來源國增加量能確保品質，五、補足第一線執行人力，六、擴編預算支持看護家庭等，就上述措施來請教勞動部，在措施三中，針對重症家庭開放可跨業別承接移工，移工只需在核發聘僱許可前，完成補充訓練20小時即可轉任，對此，勞動部有無再次審核機制來確保重症家庭的看護品質？再者，在移工需求大增的情形下，勞動部表示已努力與4個移工來源國（印尼、泰國、越南、菲律賓）協商增加量能與確保培訓品質，預計增加量能為何？以及如何確保培訓品質？是否有計畫派人至移工來源國實地會勘確保移工訓練品質？最後，申請移工流程繁瑣，是否能為重症家庭開辦一站式服務？","參、勞動部是否研議修法增加特休天數以利降低勞工總工時？","問題：今年五月初，立院三讀通過《紀念日及節日實施條例》，勞動節改為全國放假，國定假日新增4天（小年夜、9/28、10/25、12/25），同一時間，有勞團呼籲勞動部應提出《勞動基準法》修正草案，增加勞工特休假天數，以日本為例，年資滿半年有10天特休；韓國，年資滿一年，有15天特休，反觀我國不論是起始特休天數，或是滿一年特休天數，與日韓各國相比，勞工特休權益皆差於日韓二國，請教勞動部，是否認為有調整的必要？是否會召集專家小組會議凝聚修法共識？預計何時提出勞動基準法的修正草案？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","主旨：關於就業服務法修正後外籍家庭看護工聘僱制度改革及配套措施之質詢","一、修法後外籍看護工申請流程簡化問題","就業服務法第46條修正後，新增開放被看護者年齡滿80歲以上或70歲至79歲患有癌症二期以上者，得免經醫療機構之專業評估聘僱外籍家庭看護工。然而，申請流程仍按照現行SOP，未見實質簡化。請說明：","1.關於國內招募流程之檢討：","(1)目前80歲以上申請者仍須在「臺灣就業通」刊登7天進行國內招募，鑒於國內24小時住家看護人力嚴重短缺，媒合率極低，此7天等待期是否流於形式，延誤急需照護家庭之需求？","(2)貴部是否考慮將「國內招募」與「申請外勞許可」改為同步進行，而非互為前提？預計何時可實施？","(3)針對符合資格之申請案，是否可直接啟動雙軌程序，以縮短申請時間？","2.關於跨部會整合之強化：","(1)目前申請流程分散於衛福部長照中心與勞動部系統，民眾須於兩個部會間往返申請。貴部是否規劃建立跨部會單一窗口？","(2)是否可整合至各縣市長照中心，由單一窗口受理，系統後台自動進行資格審核與國內推介？具體規劃為何？","(3)在推動數位治理政策下，如何改善目前兩部會各行其是的現況？","3.關於重症家庭權益保障：","(1)貴部推估新法上路後將有約10萬人申請，目前申請情形如何？後續評估申請數量何時可能達到高峰？","(2)雖新增188名行政人力，若申請暴增，是否有應變方案？例如臨時增援、數位化加速處理？","(3)如何確保不會壓縮重症家庭的申請權益？是否有監測機制避免外籍看護「棄重擇輕」現象？","(4)針對仲介公司利用「80歲免評」進行廣告搶案，貴部如何監管仲介市場，避免商業炒作？","二、移工失聯後遞補等待期問題","現行規定雇主所聘僱之外籍移工逃逸後，須等待1個月後才可再申請外籍移工（原3個月已改為1個月），此規定變相懲罰雇主，罔顧被照顧者亟需照護之權益。請說明：","1.關於等待期正當性之檢討：","(1)移工失聯時，雇主和被照顧者實為受害者。若雇主合法聘僱、無可歸責事由，為何須承擔1個月等待期？","(2)此規定是否將移工管理風險不當轉嫁給失能家庭？貴部對此有何看法？","2.關於照護空窗期之配套：","(1)1個月空窗期內，被照顧者之照護需求如何滿足？","(2)衛福部雖提供長照2.0或喘息服務，但現有長照量能是否足以「立即」且「充足」地填補24小時照護缺口？請提供具體數據說明。","(3)是否有評估過空窗期對重症家庭造成的實際影響？","3.關於法規修正建議：","(1)貴部是否考慮修正《就業服務法》第58條，針對家庭看護工實施「零等待期」？","(2)只要雇主完成法定通報（確認失聯並通報主管機關），是否可立即允許其申請遞補？","(3)若暫不修法，是否有其他行政措施可縮短等待期？","三、合意轉換雇主申請延宕問題","外籍移工若不願待在原雇主處，想換新雇主，雇主仍需等待主管機關公文核定才可再申請外籍移工，此時間通常要1個月以上。請說明：","1.關於行政程序簡化：","(1)當勞資雙方已簽署「合意解約證明」並經地方政府驗證，原雇主照護缺口事實已成立，為何不能憑此協議事實立即申請遞補？","(2)為何須等待勞動部核發「廢止聘僱許可函」之公文旅行？系統為何不能即時連動？","(3)在數位化政府的政策下，此種公文往返是否有改善空間？","2.關於遞補資格限制：","(1)為何原雇主的遞補權利，要與原移工是否在1個月內找到新工作掛鉤？此規定之法理依據為何？","(2)既然已經合意解約，雇主應有權尋找新人力，此項限制是否不合理？","(3)貴部是否考慮取消此項不合理限制？","3.關於系統優化建議：","(1)是否可修改行政規則，只要雇主提交經地方主管機關驗證的合意解約證明，系統即時認定名額出缺，立即開放遞補資格？","(2)預計何時可完成相關系統優化？","(3)在系統優化前，是否有過渡性措施加速處理？","請貴部就上述問題提供詳細說明，並提出具體可行的改革方案，以保障失能家庭之照護權益，實現政府簡政便民之目標。請貴部於二週內提供書面回覆。"],["委員徐欣瑩書面質詢：","針對「80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量表」政策實施後，衍生「外籍看護棄重擇輕」及「長照與外籍看護申請流程未有效整合」等問題，恐衝擊重症家庭照護權益及加重行政負擔，本席要求勞動部與衛生福利部具體檢討並提出改進方案。","問題一：外籍看護「棄重擇輕」現象與重症家庭的照護危機","這項新政策放寬了80歲以上長者的聘僱門檻，預計將大幅增加市場對外籍看護的需求。然而，這也意外地導致了市場供需的結構性失衡。當外籍看護面對更多選擇時，他們傾向於選擇工作強度較低、照顧對象身體狀況較佳的家庭，導致所謂的「棄重擇輕」現象。","這對真正需要高強度、專業照護的重症家庭（如癌症末期、長期臥床者）造成了嚴峻挑戰。他們不僅面臨更長的媒合等待期，還可能因看護工頻繁流動而難以維持穩定的照護品質。儘管政府推出了「輕重分流、重症優先」的配套措施，但實際執行上仍有改善空間。","待改進之處","1.實質強化仲介機構的監督與激勵機制：政府應從源頭著手，修正現行的跨國人力仲介評鑑規範。除了增加協助重症家庭的評鑑項目外，更應建立具體的獎懲制度。例如，對於成功媒合重症家庭並維持長期穩定服務的仲介，可提供實質的補助或評鑑加分。反之，若有仲介機構因「棄重擇輕」而拒絕或怠慢重症案件，應有明確的罰則與公開的懲處紀錄，以有效引導仲介行為。","2.提升外籍看護的專業能力與承接誘因：現行僅20小時的補充訓練，對於複雜的重症照護需求顯然不足。政府應與移工來源國協商，強化外籍看護來台前的專業培訓，特別是針對管路照護、復健輔助、急救應變等技能。同時，可研議為承接重症案件的外籍看護提供額外的薪資補貼或獎金，並優化其工作條件與支持系統，從而提高其承接重症照護的意願，從根本上解決「棄重擇輕」的問題。","問題二：長照與外籍看護申請流程未能有效整合","目前，長照2.0服務與外籍看護申請分屬衛生福利部與勞動部管轄，導致行政流程「多頭馬車」，使得家庭在面臨照顧困境時，必須耗費大量時間與精力。以一個家庭同時需要長照服務（如輔具）與聘僱外籍看護為例，他們必須分別聯繫長照管理中心進行評估，並向醫療機構申請相關證明。","這種行政流程的割裂，不僅加重了家屬的行政負擔，也阻礙了兩種制度資源的有效連結。儘管政府不斷強調要將兩者結合，但在本質上，長照服務被視為「福利」，而外籍看護則屬於「自費聘僱」，這種觀念上的區隔使得制度整合難度極高，也讓家屬難以獲得真正「一站式」的綜合性照護方案。","待改進之處","1.建立「單一窗口」與「整合性評估」機制：政府應以「便民」為核心，從制度設計上徹底整合兩種服務。應由地方長期照顧管理中心作為唯一的服務窗口，提供「一站式」服務。透過單一的評估表單，照顧管理專員可以全面評估家庭的照顧需求、身體失能狀況及環境條件，並據此同時提出長照服務與外籍看護的建議方案，大幅減少家屬的重複奔波。","2.強化長照體系對外籍看護家庭的服務功能：應將聘僱外籍看護的家庭視為長照體系的一環，而非獨立於外的存在。除了放寬他們使用長照喘息、日間照顧服務的限制外，政府應強化長照管理中心的功能，使其不僅提供評估，更能主動提供諮詢與轉介服務。同時，應建立全國性線上資訊平台，整合長照服務與外籍看護的申請流程與即時資訊，讓家庭能更有效率地管理與運用資源。"],["委員何欣純書面質詢：","外籍移工是我國社會發展及經濟活動中，不可或缺的夥伴。尤其台中市，為全國移工人數第二高之城市，有超過十萬名的移工朋友，對我國產業發展及社福體系之穩定至關重要。有鑑於去（2024）年底立法院三讀修正《就業服務法》第46條，開放80歲以上長者免經巴氏量表即可聘僱外籍看護工，恐影響重症照顧需求之家庭，特向勞動部、衛生福利部及相關單位提出質詢","一、我國移工政策應立基於總體勞動力需求","查我國現正面臨產業、農業、社福等全面性的勞動力短缺，根據國發會推估，我國於2028年將終結人口紅利，2030年面臨約40萬人的勞動力缺口。可預期的是，我國對於外籍移工之倚賴將日益加深。因此，任何關於移工申請程序、名額與資格之調整，皆應立基於詳實之大數據盤點與總體市場評估，方能穩定勞動供需，兼顧各方權益。","在人口結構面上，據內政部統計我國2024年總生育率僅0.87%，遠低於已開發國家平均之2%。此外，國人初婚年齡逐年上升，至2023年男性約32.9歲、女性為31歲。各項指標顯示，少子化、高齡化已成為我國不可逆的人口趨勢。政策制定需精準預測未來十年、二十年的勞動人口缺口規模，並區分出不同年齡層、不同教育背景的勞動力供給變化。","其次，在產業結構面上，面對少子化及全球經貿環境改變之雙重夾擊，勞動部應結合國家經濟發展藍圖，分析未來哪些產業是成長引擎，需要何種技能組合的勞動力。同時，也需評估哪些傳統產業面臨轉型壓力，其勞動力需求將如何演變。以中部地區為例，作為全球精密機械與工具機產業重鎮，中部共有5個科學園區及47個產業園區，2023年產值達6兆元，佔全國15%。面對少子化趨勢下未來勞動力不足的困境，勞動部允宜主動會同各主管機關盤點全國及各區域勞動力需求，以製造業、農業、社福三大面向，進行全面的數據盤點與政策體檢，據以提出穩定、可長可久的移工政策。","二、80歲免巴氏量表造成排擠效應？重症家庭受影響，衛服部、勞動部如何協助？","我國因應高齡化及少子化挑戰，引進外籍家庭看護，其政策初衷乃為優先協助失能、重症之家庭，分擔其沉重之照護壓力。然去（2024）年底立法院三讀修正《就業服務法》第46條，新增80歲以上長者免經巴氏量表即可聘僱外籍看護工。此一修法雖立意良善，意在便民，卻因未周全考量整體勞動市場供需，而產生「避重擇輕」之排擠效應，致使原先最需要被照顧的重症家庭，反成最大受害者。","勞動部評估，就業服務法第46條新制通過後，現有80歲以上人口約91萬人，扣除已入住長照機構（4.6萬人）、使用長照2.0（26.9萬人）及聘僱外籍看護工（6.5萬人）後，剩餘53萬人即符合聘僱資格。此外，還須加上70至79歲罹患二期以上癌症者12.5萬人，勞動部推估將增加10萬名家庭看護工需求。","因應就業服務法第46條新制之可能衝擊，衛生福利部於今日檢送本委員會書面報告指出，達長照需要等級2級以上被照顧者，若外籍看護有未到任、請假返鄉、轉換雇主、期滿離境或行蹤不明等情形，即視為未聘外看狀態，可使用長照交通接送、喘息服務與照顧及專業服務等各項資源。","衛福部所提之配套措施，雖立意良善，但未能解市場供需失衡之困境。當務之急，是重症家庭連「第一位」外籍看護都可能聘僱不到，或面臨看護頻繁要求轉換至較輕鬆的案家，導致照護空窗期不斷。此一困境的根源，正在於政策僅著眼於資格放寬（需求端），卻未同步規劃看護工的總量引進、來源國開發及分級媒合機制（供給端），導致市場供需嚴重失衡。"],["主席：現在作以下決議：第一、報告及詢答完畢。第二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","上午議程到此結束，現在休息。下午2點在本會議室繼續審查病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案等5案，現在休息。","休息（12時40分）","繼續開會（14時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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所以這個部分就會去看原則上我們是希望以失能者的需求滿足為主那不急於其他的家人"},{"start":173.397,"end":200.18,"text":"所以話又講回來就是說對私人者的照顧可能我們的這個日常照顧的範圍我們可以擴大一些去做一些處理對不對在認定上勞動部是覺得這是延伸也沒有多大問題但是我們有分得很細節你自己講的第一個外國人受聘僱於從事本法第四六條第一項第九款規定之工作其工作內容如下"},{"start":201.263,"end":216.043,"text":"第一個 家庭幫庸工作在家庭從事房舍清理 食物分條家庭成員起居照料或其他與家事服務有相關嘛這個是家庭幫庸工作的範圍定酬嘛 對不對好 那第二個"},{"start":216.864,"end":246.001,"text":"就看護囉 那看護又分做機構看護跟家庭看護喔對 他的前提照顧對象就正如市長所講的都是失能者嘛 對不對好 那問題來了啊46條46條修正之後我們的外籍看護工照顧對象就沒有所謂失能者就沒有全部focus在一個失能者的在那個前提了嘛 對不對那這樣顯然只有修那一條 這條要不要修"},{"start":247.583,"end":258.845,"text":"那一條修了 現在要執行的這一條大家不修那人民要如何去看待你的法律的明確性然後要如何去遵守你的就業法所有的條文"},{"start":260.808,"end":281.098,"text":"怎麼去看待46條我們的理解因為46條增加不叫做你們理解你可能要很正確的說明他還是對照顧的對象寫到被看護者四個字所以基本上面只是被看護者的資格條件做一些相應的處理所以我們基本上面還是不會認為這個會外溢到非被看護者的範圍"},{"start":286.969,"end":310.309,"text":"市長你應該了解我講的意思 但是你打呼我這樣是不對的喔今天是一個不是私人的對象他提出這個外籍看護的申請 外籍移工的申請嘛 對不對那我的前提就不是私人者 我已經提出申請了那我只是超過80歲那你必須依照46條修正完之後 你必須要接受我的申請嘛"},{"start":311.837,"end":319.178,"text":"那跟你在第四條針對看護的定義實際工作內容就已經衝突跟違背了啊"},{"start":320.324,"end":345.743,"text":"因為46條那邊大院的修法是把它寫成80歲以上或者是70歲癌症二期以上都把它等同於被看護者所以我們從被看護者的角度上來看依照大院的法律我們就是只能做這樣一個相應的這個法律是立法院通過沒有錯啦但是立法院通過大院通過的80歲以上他只是寫80歲以上對不對因為他寫80歲以上被看護者"},{"start":347.045,"end":349.57,"text":"他有寫80歲以上被看護者免憑巴士量表怎麼認定他是80歲以上的看護者"},{"start":358.72,"end":381.077,"text":"那個條文讀起來會這樣所以有一些NGO團體或專家學者也在指教說這樣子是不是彼此之間會有一些衝突因為80歲以上其實事實上就是衝突啊事實上就是衝突啊但是對我們行政機關依法行政的角度上來看我們還是會盡量在法律許可的範圍裡面把它做一個相應的降低它的衝擊和安排"},{"start":382.526,"end":402.635,"text":"你來 市長你先等一下我請市長 長照市的市長你現在在詳讀是不是還是在看手機在研究法規是針對我們剛剛討論這事情的法規嗎市長你作證喔等一下手機打開不是你就"},{"start":406.196,"end":435.316,"text":"長期照顧長期照顧的對象可不可以簡單說明一下在你小管的長期照顧服務法的定義我們的長服務法裡面規範的就是預期他未來或者是現在就是整個達到半年六個月以上的一個需要協助他生活無法自理身體心理就是六個月以上自己沒有辦法自理嘛需要他能來協助照顧嘛對不對"},{"start":436.297,"end":443.934,"text":"這是很清楚嘛你們對康祿的定義在你們的長照體系他的工作內容照顧的對象"},{"start":445.625,"end":473.471,"text":"應該是這麼說這個看護的字整個源起是從就業服務法這邊來的那所以在常服法裡面對於有一條的名詞定義裡面就是有把這個所謂的這個看護也引進進來所以你們這邊有一個叫做第三條的第八項個人看護者只以個人身份受雇"},{"start":475.11,"end":502.538,"text":"與失能者家庭從事看護工作嘛 對不對所以就很清楚了嘛這個是從引舊輔法的一些文字過來的所以我要表達就是說不管你在長照輔法的第3條不管你在這個就業輔法第4條到大院在修正後的第46條照例講都不應該違背你們定義的看護的工作看護的對象啊"},{"start":507.059,"end":508.494,"text":"阿現在有沒有違背請答覆我"},{"start":511.967,"end":539.593,"text":"因為我們一直在擔心嘛就是會排擠到真正你必須要照顧到的重度的的這些失能者嘛 對不對就誠如次長所講的一百多萬個這些身心障礙者的對象嘛是廣大的這個我們擴大的長照體系包含外籍看護我們都納入在其中嘛所以我們就是要針對身心障礙者除此之外還有六個月以上身心自己無法治理的對象"},{"start":541.277,"end":558.926,"text":"都很清楚嘛我相信兩個法律基本上都在談論這個事情嘛開宗民義內容實際執行都是這個樣子嘛但以一個就有法4、6條去修那段話之後全部通通辯解了啊全部通通衝突了啊"},{"start":559.781,"end":585.433,"text":"所以勞動部當時在46條修法的時候其實我們是希望再更多的討論那是不是有一些其他相對的可以更緩和然後能夠兼顧各方的意見的版本但是遺憾的到最後通過的版本還是目前的狀況我現在只是要提醒你喔我是要提醒你我沒有要求你去釋憲啦照理講你是應該勞動部要發動去釋憲你不去釋憲你會出什麼問題連衛護部你都會遭遇到問題"},{"start":589.861,"end":617.462,"text":"如果80歲以上 免80量表然後是一個身心都非常健康的長輩他都可以來申請外籍看護工那我是80歲以上的一個長輩我身心健康 我能不能申請長照2.0你要不要跟我平 你為什麼可以跟我平"},{"start":620.646,"end":635.582,"text":"我申請外國對象免評我臺灣 我自己申請臺灣的造福源你要給我評什麼蛤 你要給我評不會過啊對吧 啊你這位副法 請外籍公務員你不用給我評 會過啊"},{"start":639.758,"end":647.221,"text":"我告訴大家有意思嗎 一個政府一個體制的內政勞動部你針對外政勞動部 也是你照顧台灣的政治照顧的對手一個有效部 照顧是專門主觀長照2.0 也是要照顧身體心理超過6個月以上無法治理的這些對象嘛 對不對 我們都很清楚"},{"start":660.836,"end":686.897,"text":"就是陳儒次長 我是FOX次長回答王委員最後那段話這麼廣大 龐大的一個照護體系當然就是包含本級的照護員包含外級看護工嘛但是為什麼這兩個照顧對象認定審查需求不盡相同這個不叫分流這叫亂流"},{"start":692.699,"end":715.179,"text":"對不對 為什麼就你逼我 我今天是一個健康的80歲以上長者我要來申請台灣的長照2.0 不行你不可以做對不對 但是我可以去申請外籍看護工這其實你再問一問我就不提去做了啦 但我不知道"},{"start":722.282,"end":735.131,"text":"在執行上一定就會有很大的衝突矛盾跟政府會有這種兩條線的在處理我們真正的要照顧到了長照的需求者的對象那現在去擴大"},{"start":735.791,"end":758.419,"text":"免評的他可能就是健康也要健康的這些對象除此之外這是另外一件事情嘛對不對但是我們真的很擔心我們真的很擔心真正需要被照顧的身體心理長期無法治理的對象反而出了問題嘛然後也因為台灣是講人權的國家所以這個剛剛很多委員的比喻我就不再贅述了嘛"},{"start":759.532,"end":780.322,"text":"這是另外一個城市問題喔但是我想以法律的明確性以法律的定義以看護的這個實際上的工作內容你們兩部是不是要不要坐下來好好討論不能說大院通過的法律之前有大院通過的法律是自愛難行啊"},{"start":781.53,"end":806.821,"text":"沒有執行的啊謝謝委員的指教 委員的意見我們都非常的認同但是因為現階段而言所以我們才必須要花七個月的時間跟衛福部大家充分的在見面去做處理在有限的時間底下我們先盡量不要讓重症家庭的需求受到排擠那至於其他的部分我們跟衛福部這部分在未來長照3.0其實他們跟"},{"start":807.461,"end":828.252,"text":"我們在很多的界面上剛才呂次也有特別提到在很多界面上我們有過一些相應的處理包括這些中間家庭的空窗期長照的機制和資源也都可以進來我們會持續去做相應的處理至於剛才委員講的法律結構的問題容我們再來思考看未來該怎麼去做相應的處理"},{"start":828.692,"end":848.279,"text":"好啦 一個月可以吧 一個月可以應該不用一個月了 這個講就已經這麼清楚了 一個禮拜內一個禮拜內 你是不是 針對我提出的問題啦你要看怎麼去做應應 還有一些相關的一些調整還是該有一些必須要的作為"},{"start":849.599,"end":872.932,"text":"然後提供給委員會做參考啦好不好是 關委員是不是給我們一個月啦因為部長不在嘛我答應他一個禮拜我也不知我沒有辦法掌握部長這個禮拜完整的行程他就不在你就可以答應了他在就不用你答應啊你這很奇怪你講回答我這話也怪怪的我都一直順著你的講法一直講下來兩個星期啦 兩個星期啦OK啦 好 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":847,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時3分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["劉委員建國：我接續剛剛王委員垂詢次長，次長最後回答的一段話，你說臺灣有將近一百多萬個身心障礙者的家庭，從小英的2.0到賴總統即將要進入的3.0，也包含外籍看護工作為臺灣整體長期照顧體系的一環，就包羅在這一塊跟這一塊，可能文字上有些落差啦，基本上意思應該是這樣，所以應該開宗明義就說臺灣長期被照顧的對象，基本上外籍看護工也是在這一個範疇裡面非常需要的一個長期照顧人力，沒有錯吧？剛剛在部長沒有離開之前，部長因為一件事情，但我私底下有跟次長、照護司司長討論「看護」這兩個字的定義是什麼，就以勞動部看待看護、解釋看護，用最簡單的方式去定義，看護的工作內容是什麼？"],["陳次長明仁：就是協助失能者相關的日常照顧。"],["劉委員建國：協助失能者相關的日常照顧，所以有「失能者」三個字？對，那如果看護工沒有以失能者為正常的照顧對象，有沒有違法？"],["陳次長明仁：理論上是不行的，所以以前最早的時候，看護工去幫忙其他同住家人洗衣服、煮飯，我們認為都是逾越了他的工作範圍。"],["劉委員建國：對，他幫忙洗衣、煮飯的對象……"],["陳次長明仁：應該限於失能者。"],["劉委員建國：限於失能者，不是，次長你這樣解釋又怪怪的，也就是說看護工照理講不管他照顧的對象是誰，他都不應該去做洗衣煮飯的事情嘛，應該是這麼解釋才對嘛，還是可以？"],["陳次長明仁：因為他講日常生活照護，因為失能者有些可能是獨居的，有些可能……所以這個部分就會看情況，原則上，我們是希望以失能者的需求滿足為主，不及於其他的家人。"],["劉委員建國：所以話又講回來，就是說可能對失能者日常照顧的範圍可以擴大一些去做處理，對不對？在認定上，勞動部覺得這是延伸，也沒有多大問題，但是我們分得很細，你自己講的，第一、外國人受聘僱於從事本法第四十六條第一項第九款規定之工作，其工作內容如下：一、家庭幫傭工作，在家庭從事房舍清理、食物烹調、家庭成員起居照料或其他與家事服務，這個是家庭幫傭工作的範圍，第二個就是看護了，那看護又分為機構看護跟家庭看護，他的照顧對象誠如司長所講的都是失能者，對不對？好，那問題來了，第四十六條修正之後，外籍看護工照顧的對象就沒有所謂的失能者了，就沒有全部focus在失能者這樣的一個前提了，對不對？那這樣只有修那一條，這條要不要修？那一條修了，現在要執行了，這一條到現在不修，那人民要如何去看待你的法律明確性？然後要如何去遵守就業法所有的條文？怎麼去看待？"],["陳次長明仁：我們對第四十六條的理解，因為第四十六條……"],["劉委員建國：這不叫做你們的理解，你可能要很正確的說明。"],["陳次長明仁：增加的那一項對照顧的對象還是寫「被看護者」四個字，所以基本上只是針對被看護者的資格、條件做一些相應的處理，所以我們還是不會認為這個擴處會外溢到非被看護者的範圍。"],["劉委員建國：次長，你應該了解我講的意思，你這樣答復我是不對的喔！"],["陳次長明仁：我知道。"],["劉委員建國：今天如果不是一個失能者，他提出外籍移工的申請，他的前提就不是失能者，他只是超過80歲，第四十六條修正之後，你必須要接受他的申請，那跟你在第四條針對看護的定義、實際工作內容就已經衝突跟牴觸了啊！"],["陳次長明仁：因為第四十六條大院的修法是把它寫成80歲以上，或者是70歲、癌症二期以上，把這類人等同於被看護者，所以我們從被看護者的角度上來看，依照大院的法律，我們就是只能做這樣相應的處理。"],["劉委員建國：這個法律是立法院通過的沒有錯啦，但是立法院通過的80歲以上，只是寫80歲以上，對不對？"],["陳次長明仁：寫80歲以上被看護者。"],["劉委員建國：他有寫80歲以上被看護者。"],["陳次長明仁：只是說免評巴氏量表，醫療機構……"],["劉委員建國：免評巴氏量表怎麼認定他是80歲以上的看護者？"],["陳次長明仁：那個條文讀起來會這樣，所以有一些NGO團體或專家學者也在指教，說這樣是不是彼此之間會有一些衝突，因為80歲以上其實……"],["劉委員建國：事實上就是衝突啊！"],["陳次長明仁：但是從我們行政機關依法行政的角度上來看，我們還是會儘量在法律許可的範圍裡面，做一個相應的降低衝擊的安排。"],["劉委員建國：次長，你再等一下，我請長照司的司長，你現在在詳讀是不是？還是在看手機？在研究法規，是針對我們剛剛在討論的事情的法規嗎？是喔，次長，你作證喔，等一下手機打開不是，你就……","長期照顧的對象，你可不可以簡單說明一下？在你轄管的長期照顧服務法的定義。"],["祝司長健芳：是，我們的長服法裡面規範的就是預期他未來或現在整個達到六個月以上生活無法自理、失能，需要協助的一個狀態。"],["劉委員建國：身體、心理長達六個月以上自己沒有辦法自理，需要他人來協助照顧，對不對？"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["劉委員建國：這很清楚嘛，你們對看護的定義，在你們的長照體系中他的工作內容、照顧的對象如何？"],["祝司長健芳：應該這麼說，「看護」這個名詞的源起是從就業服務法這邊來的，所以在長服法裡有一條的名詞定義裡面，就有把所謂的「看護」納進來。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以你們這邊第三條第八項，個人看護者只以個人身分受僱，於失能者家庭從事看護工作，對不對？"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以就很清楚了嘛。"],["祝司長健芳：對，這是從就服法的文字過來的。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛，我要表達的就是，不管是長照服務法的第三條，或者就業服務法第四條，到立法院修正後的第四十六條，照理講都不應該違背你們定義的看護的工作、看護的對象啊！現在有沒有違背？請答復我。因為我們一直擔心會排擠到真正必須要照顧的這些重度失能者，對不對？誠如次長所講的，一百多萬個身心障礙者的對象，所以我們擴大長照體系，包含外籍看護都納入其中，就是要針對身心障礙者，除此之外，還有6個月以上身心無法自理的對象，都很清楚嘛！我相信兩個法律基本上都在談論這個事情，開宗明義的內容、實際執行都是這個樣子，但一個就業服務法第四十六條修了那段話之後，全部通通變節了，全部通通衝突了啊！"],["陳次長明仁：所以勞動部當時在第四十六條修法的時候，其實我們是希望有再更多的討論，是不是有一個讓其他相對的部分可以更緩和，也能夠兼顧各方意見的版本，但是遺憾的，到最後通過的版本還是目前的狀況……"],["劉委員建國：我現在只是要提醒你，我沒有要求你去釋憲，照理講勞動部應該發動釋憲，你不去釋憲，會出什麼問題呢？可能連衛福部都會遭遇問題，如果80歲以上免巴氏量表，然後一個身心都非常健康的長輩都可以來申請外籍看護工，那麼我是80歲以上長輩，身心健康，能不能來申請長照2.0？你要不要給我評？你為什麼可以給我評？我申請外國對象免評，申請臺灣本國的照服員，你要給我評什麼？蛤？"],["呂次長建德：但他不會通過啊！"],["劉委員建國：對啊！你會給我評不通過，但是現在就業服務法申請外籍看護工，你不用評就可以通過啊！我這樣講，大家聽得懂意思嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：我知道。"],["劉委員建國：一個政府裡的體制，一個是勞動部，針對外籍看護工，是要照顧臺灣長期需要照顧的對象；一個是衛福部照護司，專門主管長照2.0，也是要照顧身體心理超過6個月以上無法自理的長者，對不對？這我們都很清楚，我就focus在次長回答王委員最後的那段話，這麼廣大、龐大的照服體系，當然就是包含本籍照服員和外籍看護工，但為什麼這兩個照顧的對象認定、審查需求不盡相同？這個不叫分流，這個叫亂流，對不對？為什麼？就你逼我，今天我是一個健康的80歲以上長者，我要申請臺灣的長照2.0，結果是不行，認為我又沒有怎麼樣，對不對？但是我可以去申請外籍看護工！其實好幾次委員會我都有提起這個問題，如果你們沒辦法解決，那麼在執行上一定會有很大的衝突、矛盾跟……怎麼政府會有這樣兩條線在處理我們真正要照顧的有長照需求的對象？現在要擴大免評的，他可能是健康、亞健康的這些對象，這是另外一件事情，對不對？但我們真的很擔心真正需要被照顧的、身體心理長期無法自理的對象，反而出了問題，然後也因為臺灣是講人權的國家，所以剛剛很多委員的比喻我就不再贅述，這又是另外一個層次的問題，但是我想以法律的明確性、以法律的定義、以看護的實際工作內容來看，你們兩部是不是、要不要坐下來好好討論，不能推說這是大院通過的法律，之前大院通過的法律也有窒礙難行而沒有執行的啊！"],["陳次長明仁：謝謝委員的指教，委員的意見我們都非常認同，但是因應現階段而言，所以我們才必須花7個月的時間跟衛福部再充分見面討論、處理，在有限的時間下，我們先儘量不要讓重症家庭的需求受到排擠，至於我們跟衛福部的這一部分，未來在長照3.0，其實剛才呂次也有特別提到，兩部在很多介面上都有一些相應的處理，包括這些重症家庭的空窗期，長照機制和資源也都可以進來，我們會持續去做相應的處理。至於剛才委員講的那個法律結構的問題，容我們再來思考，看看未來該怎麼去做相應的處理。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！一個月可以吧？應該不用一個月，這個已經講這麼清楚了，一個禮拜內，是不是針對我提出的問題，你們要怎麼因應，還有一些相關的調整、作為，提供相關資料給委員會參考，好不好？"],["陳次長明仁：報告委員，是不是給我們一個月？因為部長不在，如果我答應一個禮拜，但我沒有辦法掌握部長這個禮拜完整的行程……"],["劉委員建國：他不在，你就可以答應了啊！他在，就不用你答應啊！你很奇怪，回答我的這個話怪怪的！我都是順著你的講法一直講下來的，好，兩個星期，好不好？OK啦！謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["陳次長明仁：好，我們再跟衛福部討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的發言，謝謝次長的回應。","下一位請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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是不是請經濟部郭部長郭部長"},{"start":29.162,"end":34.037,"text":"今天是中小企業怎麼去協助度過多重的危機"},{"start":35.407,"end":64.734,"text":"包括當然是天災也包括整體國際大環境的變化跟挑戰包括大概我認為有三大挑戰中小企業大部分都是傳統產業比較多傳統產業集中也都中南部比較多所以又受到風災然後又遇到國際大環境經濟形勢的變化包括這個美國關稅的問題現在還是沒有最終的這個答案那"},{"start":65.726,"end":86.221,"text":"牽涉到包括這個鋼鋁我們這個232條款裡面鋼鋁是50%對不對有用鋼鋁塑造影響的產業包括這個工具機包括螺絲扣件等等對不對所以美國的關稅是一個整體經營環境的挑戰之一之二就是我們匯率問題我們升值的幅度高於日韓中"},{"start":89.246,"end":109.091,"text":"對匯率是支柱必較 匯率的敏感度 傳統產業的敏感度相對的避險也比較不足 避險能力也比較不足也沒有專業的人力去做避險的工作所以他們對匯率的敏感度很強第三個 中國的惡性的競爭"},{"start":111.69,"end":139.279,"text":"中國不管是從過去的面板到石化到自行車等等都是用同樣模式用國家資本介入去取得你的這個市占率甚至牽連到成熟製程還好我們新興製程還保持一定的優勢成熟製程他們再過幾年他們市占率就是不到50%的這種情況包括傳統產業包括這個高科技產業成熟製程他都用同樣的模式"},{"start":140.481,"end":164.23,"text":"去取得它的供应链取得这个影响力整个产业链的影响力所以我们传统产业面临到这三种国际环境的变化中国的工市 汇率 然后关税然后加上热金天灾中小企业是不是我认为这二十几年来最艰苦的阶段部长你同意吗"},{"start":165.977,"end":191.972,"text":"確實如委員指教的部分確實現在的中小企業需要經濟部大力的協作跟輔助這不是一般就是小感冒或者是不舒服頭痛而已我覺得是一個非常重大的疾病或者是一個重大的挑戰如果沒有處理好會危及到產業的生存"},{"start":193.789,"end":221.687,"text":"所以我們必須要嚴肅的面對這個挑戰一項一項來拆解那當然天災部分我們有這個資料重建條例來處理但是匯率這個匯率我們可以匯率跟關稅可超支在我嗎報告委員我個人認為就我過去的經驗來看匯率是可以在某一個部分某一個狀況之下可超支在幾"},{"start":223.019,"end":242.84,"text":"就是我们用政策可以去做调控规律我们是可以处理关税是非可控的关税是非可控的超市在他但是现在我们坦白讲我们已经知道暂定的关税是20加N所以就这样的一个情况之下我们先面对这个最坏的状况我们在谈只有更好不会更差"},{"start":243.976,"end":269.207,"text":"所以就20加恩的时候现在经济部就就20加恩这样的情况之下我们如何协助这一些中小企业他们能够面对这样的一个困境所以我们第一个先解决汇率的问题所以汇率你觉得到哪一种汇率水准才是符合业界的期待我们现在的汇率我们大概中小企业他们比较担心的是日本跟韩国"},{"start":270.296,"end":298.157,"text":"所以我們的匯率不是只有自己盯美國而是要去考慮到整個動態環境您也是央行理事對不對我是央行理事對啊你們在這個相關的匯率討論的時候也可以跟這個楊總裁建議我有我會跟那個中央銀行的總裁我們會來討論怎麼樣子讓到未來其實我跟委員報告我們所了解的這是關稅的部分"},{"start":299.664,"end":326.925,"text":"應該會在未來三個月裡面談完談完就是有一個最終的一個關稅稅率最終的對 但是呢這個會影響的波廊是比較好的結果大概六個月所以我們現在也在討論什麼樣子讓台灣的匯率從現在一直到農曆年前可以是穩定的不會vibration太大的這樣子的話我們台灣的企業韌性是非常的強目前的匯率可以嗎"},{"start":327.967,"end":339.895,"text":"你覺得維持在目前的匯率水準現在30.23所以現在的匯率應該是業者來講說是不是到31到32一般來講就過去6年過去6年的平均值是31"},{"start":348.467,"end":373.09,"text":"所以應該如果回到過去六年平均的這個水平會比較好那又回到您所說的這是可操之在我的是可操之在央行的相關的匯率政策所以你做央行我們不能操縱匯率你可以做紅官調控不是操縱紅官調控操縱跟紅官調控是不一樣謝謝委員的指教這個部分"},{"start":374.904,"end":397.513,"text":"因為您說是31是比較合理我們來努力我們往最棒的狀況去調整這個市場裡面我們比較怕的是禿鷹跟預期心理因為我們在上半年我們其實粗糙蠻多的所以這個會有人預期說那你這樣的這個要換台幣就會升值那大家如果說讓那個"},{"start":400.558,"end":428.888,"text":"大家都短暫的 怕它崩掉所以我剛綜合一下關稅在六個月之內三個月之內會有一個最終的稅率出來然後我們希望在未來六個月我們的匯率維持一定的水準維持有競爭力的水準這個關一定可以過我們目標是到31就是過去六年的平均稅率這是我們最棒的狀況好 那另外一個中國的這個"},{"start":432.194,"end":450.1,"text":"他們的這個競爭中國用所有的方式用在石化用這個面板等等對這個相關螺絲擴建也是如此過去螺絲擴建台灣不用說什麼螺絲擴建過去是全球第三名"},{"start":453.119,"end":467.29,"text":"那現在東南亞也追上來了那中國又用那種搶佔你低價 國家資本介入搶佔你市佔率的方式 讓你的獲利減少 讓你的成本增加加上我們國際環境的變化所以我們對傳統產業"},{"start":470.367,"end":479.639,"text":"有沒有在政策上強烈的支持讓他們成本能夠降低讓他們在國際市場上有更多的市場機會或者維持相當的競爭力"},{"start":482.338,"end":499.684,"text":"我觉得对金属扣件要有一个专章要有一个专章然后金属扣件因为每个产业面对的问题不尽相同所以专章就是既然对金属扣件我们有很多具体的很具体的做法让这些产业能够度过这三重的挑战跟危机"},{"start":500.732,"end":525.339,"text":"報告委員我們都有方法包括在國內我們如果幫助國內的廠商降低它的成本利用AI的這個操作第二個透過EXCO能夠太舊換新它的設備然後節能減碳第三個我幫它統籌材料幫它能夠降低成本這個已經上路了嗎還是在規劃上路上路上路"},{"start":526.119,"end":553.949,"text":"然後在美國在美國的市場我們在搜尋美國強的這個通路然後協助國內的廠商可以進入那個通路我覺得是這樣子就是面對中國的這個競爭惡性競爭不管是先進製程不管是成熟製程或是傳統產業我們能不能比如說成熟製程部分禁止國內的半導體跟中國投片"},{"start":556.383,"end":582.447,"text":"你要跟國內投片不要跟中國 不用中芯國際那些禁止或者你要限制它投片的比例同樣的我們的這個公共工程是不是可以禁止使用這個中國製的相關的擴建產品零件公共工程禁止使用中國的商品這個我們做得到擴大到所有產業呢一樣"},{"start":583.737,"end":599.714,"text":"所以我們就是禁止中國人我們要用本國的本國的不能進來啦現在的規定就是不能進來啦中國的中國的喔那西山地呢西山地抓到太刀抓到太刀抓到喔第一遍60萬"},{"start":603.496,"end":618.566,"text":"第二邊三百萬 第三邊就吊銷執照就說那些要流離台灣啦我們都公共工程 或是大型企業那些工廠都用台灣借 台灣奔透的金屬擴建嘛一定要你要防範這些稀產地 為中國進來"},{"start":622.428,"end":644.641,"text":"这个我们为什么会在这一次的这个特别是在海防跟国防上面编列1500亿就是禁止他能够走私起产地那这样我就稍微稍微比较放心另外就是成熟市城能不能限制他去跟这个中国以中国国家资本为主的这些扶植起来的这个半导体的成熟市城去投片"},{"start":644.861,"end":669.495,"text":"我們現在還是這樣 我跟委員報告在改變那個consumer的產品是沒有意義的啦你必須要去做teleman不過它市貸率已經超過50%了我們那個市貸率小的東西就不好賣賺錢嘛我們要去做會賺錢的生意啦什麼叫會賺錢的生意賺錢就是先進製程啦 成熟製程就拚不贏他現在是怎樣 我舉個數字給你聽成熟製程我們照樣可以teleman"},{"start":671.923,"end":689.609,"text":"美国三分之二的科技厂商有跟中国投片三分之二但是整个投片的比率占12%而已他在美国他在中国投片然后看的是中国的市场"},{"start":690.95,"end":701.46,"text":"他看的是中國的市場不會影響到外部的市場我們看的是中國以外的市場因為中國的市場 不賺錢嘛所以政府要補助他"},{"start":703.513,"end":727.906,"text":"境外博主委他内卷的很厉害其实中国的而且现在中国这两年去年跟今年增加的四十几个Fab其实都没有竞争力的他内部竞争很厉害是他们中国国内的事情但是他内部竞争也会影响到这个外部的环境你放心我是很担心未来我们这个成熟市场就像现在的石化过去的这个面板"},{"start":728.746,"end":744.708,"text":"受到中国的红色供应链的侵袭因为半导体的变半导体的更新技术的更新两年就是一个世代那对这成熟制程也是一样它那里面"},{"start":745.549,"end":765.514,"text":"能夠賺錢的部分其實很少所以您認為說我們的半導體成熟製程在未來一段時間還是能維持一定的優勢我們當然有競爭優勢因為特別是在特別是20奈米以下的14 12 17這四個製程裡面中國沒有辦法做到有辦法做到 但是良率非常低"},{"start":766.374,"end":795.024,"text":"但是台湾这个地方做很好的是台积电但台积电现在所有的人都shift到5 3 2 1.8所以他可以让出这个我刚才讲的10 24 17这四个阶段的这个制程比如说给他的兄弟公司世界先进或者其他的华邦汪洪这个我们就可以那如果28奈米的呢28奈米的呢28奈米的可以放弃啦没弹的啊"},{"start":798.095,"end":821.033,"text":"但是國內也有很多生產啊沒有啦我們要做那個會斷的我們不能做那個就不會斷的生意所以這個說來話長但是因為實業限制我一向都很損失的這個我可以跟委員私底下報告因為這方面是這方面真的是我的專業啦好 改天再跟你請教沒有沒有 不敢謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":844,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時2分）謝謝主席，是不是請經濟部郭部長？"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長好，部長辛苦了。今天是針對中小企業怎麼樣去協助以渡過多重危機，當然包括天災，也包括整體國際大環境的變化跟挑戰，大概我認為有三大挑戰，中小企業大部分都是傳統產業比較多，集中在中南部的也比較多。受到風災，又遇到國際大環境經濟情勢的變化，包括美國關稅的問題現在還是沒有最終的答案。牽涉到包括鋼鋁，這個232條款裡面，鋼鋁是50%，對不對？有關鋼鋁受到影響的產業，包括工具機、螺絲扣件等等。所以美國的關稅是整體經營環境的挑戰之一，之二就是匯率的問題，我們升值的幅度高於日韓中，而對匯率錙銖必較，是傳統產業敏感度非常……相對地避險能力比較不足，也沒有專業人力去做避險的工作，所以他們對於匯率的敏感度很強。","第三個，中國的惡性競爭，中國不管是從過去的面板、石化到自行車等等都是用同樣的模式，用國家資本介入去取得市占率，甚至侵入到成熟製程，還好我們的先進製程還保持一定的優勢，成熟製程他們再過幾年的市占率就到50%了，這種情況包括傳統產業、高科技產業的成熟製程，他都用同樣的模式去取得他的供應鏈、取得整個產業鏈的影響力。","所以我們傳統產業面臨到這三種國際環境的變化，中國的攻勢，匯率、關稅，加上最近的天災，中小企業是不是……我認為這二十幾年來最艱苦的階段，部長同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：如委員指教的部分，確實現在的中小企業需要經濟部大力地協作跟輔助。"],["邱委員志偉：這不是一般的小感冒或者不舒服、頭痛而已，我覺得是非常重大的一個疾病，或者是一個重大的挑戰，如果沒有處理好會危及到產業的生存，所以我們必須要嚴肅面對這個挑戰，一項一項拆解。當然天災的部分我們有災害重建條例來處理，但是匯率以及關稅可操之在我嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我個人認為，就我過去的經驗來看，匯率是可以在某一個部分、某一個狀況之下……"],["邱委員志偉：操之在己，就是我們用政策可以去做調控。"],["郭部長智輝：匯率我們是可以處理。"],["邱委員志偉：關稅是非可控的。"],["郭部長智輝：關稅是非可控的。"],["邱委員志偉：操之在他。"],["郭部長智輝：但是現在，坦白講，我們已經知道暫定的關稅是20%+N，所以就這樣的一個情況之下，我們先面對這個最壞的狀況嘛！我們再談只有更好，不會更差。現在經濟部就20%+N的情況之下，我們如何協助這些中小企業能夠面對這樣的一個困境嘛！所以我們第一個先解決匯率的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：所以匯率，你覺得到哪一種匯率水準才是符合業界的期待？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在的匯率，大概中小企業比較擔心的是日本跟韓國，所以我們的匯率不是只有自己盯美國，而是要考慮到整個動態環境。"],["邱委員志偉：你也是央行理事，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我是央行理事。"],["邱委員志偉：對，你們在相關的匯率討論時……"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：也可以跟楊總裁建議。"],["郭部長智輝：我有，我會跟中央銀行總裁，我們會來討論，怎麼樣讓……未來，我跟委員報告，我們所了解的，關稅部分應該會在未來3個月裡面談完。"],["邱委員志偉：談完就是有一個最終的關稅稅率。"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是這個會影響的波……"],["邱委員志偉：是比較好的結果……"],["郭部長智輝：大概6個月，所以我們現在也在討論，怎麼樣讓臺灣的匯率，從現在一直到農曆年前可以是穩定的，不會vibration太大，這樣子的話，我們臺灣的企業韌性是非常地強……"],["邱委員志偉：目前的匯率可以嗎？你覺得維持在目前的匯率水準……"],["郭部長智輝：現在30.23嘛！所以現在的匯率應該是，就業者來講，他們還勉強可以接受。"],["邱委員志偉：是不是到31、32？"],["郭部長智輝：一般來講，就是去6年的平均值是31。"],["邱委員志偉：如果回到過去6年平均的水平……"],["郭部長智輝：那就太棒了。"],["邱委員志偉：會比較好。那又回到您所說的，這個是可操之在我的，是可操之在央行相關的匯率政策，所以你作為央行理事，你……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能操縱匯率，報告委員……"],["邱委員志偉：不是操縱匯率，你可以做宏觀調控，不是操縱，宏觀調控，操縱跟宏觀調控是不一樣的。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教，這個部分我們來……"],["邱委員志偉：因為您說31是比較合理、最棒的狀況嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們來努力、我們來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：我們往最棒的狀況去調整。"],["郭部長智輝：這個市場裡面，我們比較怕的是禿鷹跟預期心理。因為在上半年我們其實出超滿多的，所以會有人預期說那你這樣要換，臺幣就會升值。大家如果讓那個……大家都囤在那邊……怕會崩掉。"],["邱委員志偉：是啦……"],["郭部長智輝：所以要讓一些流出去……"],["邱委員志偉：我綜合一下，關稅在3個月之內會有一個最終的稅率出來，然後希望在未來6個月，我們的匯率維持一定水準。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們這個關一定可以過。"],["邱委員志偉：維持有競爭力的水準。"],["郭部長智輝：這個關一定可以過。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們目標是不是到31，就是過去6年的平均稅率，這是我們最棒的狀況嘛！好，那另外一個是中國的競爭，中國將所有的方式，用在石化、面板等等，對螺絲扣件也是如此，過去臺灣螺絲扣件是全球第三名，中國、德國，再來就是臺灣，現在東南亞也追上來了，中國又用低價搶占，用國家資本介入，搶占市占率的方式，讓你的獲利減少、成本增加，加上國際環境的變化，所以我是想說，我們對傳統產業有沒有政策上的強力支持，讓他們的成本能夠降低，讓他們在國際市場上有更多的機會，或者維持相當的競爭力？我覺得對金屬扣件要有一個專章。"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：因為每個產業面對的問題不盡相同，所以專章就是針對金屬扣件，我們有很多具體、detail的作法，讓這些產業能夠度過這三重的挑戰跟危機。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都有方法，包括在國內，我們如何幫助國內的廠商降低他們的成本，利用AI的操作。第二個，透過ESCO，能夠汰舊換新它的設備，然後節能減碳。第三個，我幫他們統籌材料，讓他們能夠降低成本。"],["邱委員志偉：這個已經上路了嗎？還是正在規劃？"],["郭部長智輝：上路了，然後美國的市場，我們在搜尋美國強的通路，協助國內廠商可以進入那個通路。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得面對中國的惡性競爭，不管是成熟製程或者傳統產業，我們能不能比如說成熟製程部分禁止國內的半導體跟中國投片？你要跟國內廠商投片，不要跟中國的，不要跟中芯國際啦，那些禁止！或者你要限制它投片的比例。同樣的，我們的公共工程是不是可以禁止使用中國製的相關扣件產品、零件？"],["郭部長智輝：公共工程禁止使用中國的商品，這個我們做得到。"],["邱委員志偉：擴大到所有產業呢？"],["郭部長智輝：一樣，我們就是禁止中國的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我們要用本國的。"],["郭部長智輝：他們不能進來啦，現在的規定就是不能進來了。"],["邱委員志偉：中國的？"],["郭部長智輝：中國的。"],["邱委員志偉：如果它洗產地呢？"],["郭部長智輝：洗產地抓到就殺頭。"],["邱委員志偉：殺頭？"],["郭部長智輝：抓到第一次罰60萬，第二次罰300萬，第三次就吊銷執照。"],["邱委員志偉：供應鏈要留在臺灣啦，不管是公共工程，還是這些大型企業的工程都用臺灣製的，臺灣本土的金屬扣件。"],["郭部長智輝：一定要。"],["邱委員志偉：你要防範這些洗產地的從中國進來。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們為什麼會在這一次，特別在海防跟國防上面編列1,500億，就是禁止它走私、洗產地。"],["邱委員志偉：了解，這樣我就比較放心了。另外，成熟製程的部分，能不能限制它去跟中國以國家資本為主扶植起來的半導體成熟製程投片？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還是這樣，我跟委員報告，你跟它拚consumer產品是沒有意義的，你必須要去做tailor-made。"],["邱委員志偉：不過它的市占率已經超過50%了欸！"],["郭部長智輝：不、不、不，那個市占率對便宜的東西沒用，不能賺錢嘛，我們要去做能賺錢的生意，什麼才是能賺錢的生意？"],["邱委員志偉：能賺錢的就是先進製程，成熟製程就拚不贏它嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：現在是這樣，我舉一個數字說給你聽。"],["郭部長智輝：成熟製程我們照樣可以tailor-made。"],["邱委員志偉：我舉一個數字說給你聽，美國三分之二的科技廠商有跟中國投片，但是整個投片的比率占12%而已，它那個量有限制。"],["郭部長智輝：它在中國投片，它看的是中國的市場，不會影響到外部的市場，我們看的是中國以外的市場，因為中國的市場不賺錢，所以他們政府要補助他們，它內捲的很厲害，而且中國這兩年，去年跟今年增加的四十幾個fab，其實都沒有競爭力。"],["邱委員志偉：他們內部競爭很厲害，這是他們中國國內的事情，但是它內部競爭也會影響到外部的環境。"],["郭部長智輝：不會，你放心啦！成熟製程……"],["邱委員志偉：我是很擔心未來我們的成熟製程就像現在的石化、過去的面板，受到中國紅色供應鏈的侵襲。"],["郭部長智輝：因為半導體技術的更新，兩年就是一個世代，對成熟製程也是一樣，它那裡面能夠賺錢的部分其實很少。"],["邱委員志偉：所以您認為我們半導體的成熟製程，在未來一段時間還是能維持一定的優勢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有競爭的優勢，特別是20奈米以下，14、12、10、7這四個製程，中國有辦法做，但是它良率非常低。臺灣這個地方做很好的是台積電，但台積電現在所有的人都shift到5、3、2、1.8，所以它可以讓出我剛才講的12、14、10、7這四個階段的製程，譬如說給它的兄弟公司──世界先進，或者其他的，華邦、旺宏，這個我們都可以……"],["邱委員志偉：如果是28奈米呢？"],["郭部長智輝：28奈米可以放棄，不會賺錢，做那個做什麼，我們要做能賺錢的。"],["邱委員志偉：但是國內也有很多生產啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啦！我們要做能賺錢的，我們不能做不賺錢的生意。"],["邱委員志偉：這個說來話長啦！但是因為有時間限制，我一向都很準時。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我可以跟委員私底下報告。"],["邱委員志偉：我們私底下再討論。"],["郭部長智輝：因為這方面真的是我的專業啦！"],["邱委員志偉：好，改天再跟你請教。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，沒有，不敢！謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員張嘉郡、何欣純、陳超明所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","李坤城","賴士葆","蔡易餘","邱志偉","張嘉郡","何欣純","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長就「協助中小企業災後復原辦理情況」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147302_00001"}}},{"id":"163585","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163585","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3feaef107a98f0c9fd39770ff88fe6a3495992f4538fe6f2817c1cbb294e2f359c42b40381f6ac9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:45:46 - 12:02:50","影片長度":"00:17:04","會議時間":"2025-08-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：（上午）\n邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午1時30分）\n繼續審查\n一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-08-20","start_time":"2025-08-20T11:45:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-20T12:02:50+08:00","duration":1024,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.16159375,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.709093750000001,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.77659375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.67034375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.872843750000001,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.30659375,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.83721875,"end":24.887843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.887843750000002,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.02284375,"end":25.039718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.039718750000002,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":26.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.07284375,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.17409375,"end":29.190968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.190968750000003,"end":29.511593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.511593750000003,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.59596875,"end":29.612843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.13596875,"end":77.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.36909375,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.57346875000002,"end":177.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.04534375,"end":234.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.34034375000002,"end":244.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.25846875000002,"end":253.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.96596875000003,"end":294.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.31409375000004,"end":294.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.75284375,"end":294.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.85409375,"end":306.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.10534375000003,"end":307.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.08409375,"end":372.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.96846875,"end":411.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.71346875,"end":486.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.97409375,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.62159375000005,"end":506.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.98971875,"end":511.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.52909375,"end":519.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.47284375,"end":580.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.5815937500001,"end":584.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.83409375,"end":634.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.4465937500001,"end":676.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.7553437500001,"end":656.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.12784375,"end":678.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.3047187500001,"end":717.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.85221875,"end":711.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.58971875,"end":729.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.0265937500001,"end":754.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.01846875,"end":834.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.61346875,"end":921.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.4665937500001,"end":857.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.53409375,"end":857.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":920.4609687500001,"end":928.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":921.6928437500001,"end":921.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":928.6453437500002,"end":933.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":934.06221875,"end":937.0828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":937.43721875,"end":942.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":943.1240937500002,"end":987.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":987.31971875,"end":1011.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1012.0078437500001,"end":1020.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1020.81659375,"end":1021.4240937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":1.829,"text":"謝謝那就麻煩次長來 有請次長"},{"start":29.17,"end":44.817,"text":"王委員生日快樂謝謝因為今天這個很重要的題目透過這個就業服務法46條的修正以後引發出剛剛像我們師父委員所提到的核心問題"},{"start":46.157,"end":74.069,"text":"這個是大家一直面對那也透過這次的問題的呈現大家如果有機會來把相關的問題處理到一個釐清以後怎麼來做因應所以我覺得很佩服大家各位委員還有在所有官員在應對這個問題的時候所做的努力那我們也期待能夠在大家用心的處理之下能夠有機會來慢慢的脫離這個困境"},{"start":75.169,"end":100.866,"text":"那這邊我還是有幾個需要跟市長還有跟部裡面一起來討論的地方就是中正家庭的衝擊跟配套措施因為畢竟來講中正家庭所受到衝擊還是影響是比較立即而且是明顯那我們當初在修法的時候也擔心80歲做一個切割是不是會跟目前大家討論的這些困境"},{"start":101.546,"end":124.202,"text":"會有直接的關聯那我相信這個是可以看到的一些狀況那貴部也提了六個配套措施那我們就逐一的來看一下其中的兩三個裡面目前在實際的狀況上是怎麼處理的包括針對於這個國內承接的順位的最優先這也是一個配套"},{"start":124.762,"end":145.655,"text":"那另外針對於協調移工來源國能夠確保那個量能跟品質這個是大家非常關心的部分還有如何補足第一線為了因應這個修法導致這個人力的需求那他們的工作量或者是面對這些問題的時候如何能夠讓他們有效的來"},{"start":146.896,"end":172.768,"text":"面對這樣的困境那最後是不是除了剛剛所提到的擴編預算支持看護家庭包括從衛護部那邊也提供傳避服務這次也看到編列了11.8億針對這部分來做加強這個今天就利用這個機會來跟部裡面就教跟次長來就教一下第一個部分就是重症家庭國內承接順位的最優先"},{"start":173.388,"end":188.715,"text":"那我們可以從這個畫面上看到當一個重症案有這個需求的時候他有兩個可能性來取得招募的許可國外引進的部分我們等一下再談我們先看國內的承接"},{"start":189.455,"end":205.867,"text":"目前在處理上就是會把它變成一個最優先的承接順序而且是在14天裡面如果已經有目前在台灣的這些移工他被釋放出來的話他可以在14天裡面就來承接"},{"start":207.047,"end":233.461,"text":"當然這個14天很有可能他在媒合的時候發現這個對象不是他願意的所以他也可以有選擇權假設說他在這個7天的選擇權裡面後來沒有媒合成功這個14天要怎麼算這個未來在執行上可能不同的縣市或者是中央這邊有沒有一個一定的處理模式避免到時候每一個縣市覺得說我這個14天就是從一開始就是14天"},{"start":234.501,"end":254.506,"text":"另外有現實是說我因為媒合7天不成功我用從第7天開始算14天這個未來避免諮詢上的困難或者是諮詢上的差異性這部分可能要等一下請次長說明一下還有這個媒合率要怎麼確保因為輕症 只有時間多這個是人性"},{"start":255.166,"end":271.355,"text":"如果是我們的話我們也會做這些選擇那我們怎麼能夠從這個國內承接的媒合率裡面去掌握到未來如果是真的媒合率很低的話那很顯然這個部分需要再做政策上的檢討或者是一些執行上的參考"},{"start":271.875,"end":292.773,"text":"那另外就是說如果我們要開放中心家庭可以跨業比的這個承接的話那如何能夠完成這個補充訓練那當然這個過程裡面其實職聘中心的量能就非常非常的重要目前我們的職聘的中心量能有辦法來應付或者是面對這個國內承接這樣的困境或者是問題嗎次長請"},{"start":295.075,"end":317.795,"text":"首先跟委員報告非常謝謝委員的關心就是有關於重症家庭國內承接優先這個部分那一般的國內承接大概都沒有原來都是按隨案來辦理但是我們這一次特別針對重症家庭預定了一個優先所以他會依照輕重分流的角度來理解所以"},{"start":318.315,"end":332.445,"text":"一旦有國內承接的狀況有移工要在國內承接我們優先來處理重症家庭的一個媒合那這媒合大概我們就會在14天裡面來相應的做處理那剛才委員所提到技術面的問題我們會來注意"},{"start":333.926,"end":355.405,"text":"那第二個部分當然就是國內媒合部分還是必須要雇主跟移工雙方面都能夠互相同意和理解才會有媒合成功那這部分我們會盡力的來做相應的媒合所以媒合的頻率和次數我們會來加強然後第二個部分就有關於職聘中心也好相關的救福站的媒合的部分也好我們會來"},{"start":357.387,"end":372.289,"text":"提升相關的人力來多做一些事情所以包括我們後面所講的相關的人力的部分包括衛務部那邊的照管中心包括勞動部這邊相應的人力以至於到未來在外管的部分的那個"},{"start":374.07,"end":401.782,"text":"簽證的部分還有未來引進之後我們地方的勞動的相應的人員有去看探視或看訪的相應的部分相關的人力我們通通在後面會去估算出來也做了一些相應的編配大概188人左右所以委員的建議我們有充分的注意到當然最終還是會取決於勞僱雙方面的一個合議那在這部分裡面我們會盡量來"},{"start":402.962,"end":411.011,"text":"協助大家去做完整的相應的界階盡量讓重症家庭在這一波的狀況裡面衝擊降到最低"},{"start":411.738,"end":440.791,"text":"好那針對14天的起算跟時效的這個過程的計算可能部裡面還是要先確認好謝謝那再過來就是有關於如果是重症案進入到招募許可的過程裡面是國外引進這個移工來協助幫忙做照顧的話那因為我們知道一個移工要進到台灣他需要有三個單位的審查包括在簽證的部分是外交部"},{"start":441.471,"end":466.922,"text":"那第二部分就是聘僱許可是勞動部就是貴部那拘留證是移民署所以這個是一個當然剛剛會提到為什麼我們需要仲介來協助有他一定的這個道理跟他的這個冗長的過程所以這部分想要確認就是在外館優先處理的部分有沒有跟外交部有過相關的協商或者是請他們來幫忙"},{"start":468.343,"end":485.452,"text":"那另外我們也知道這個工作資格其實很多種那我們目前討論的這個照顧的部分是其中的一種所以這個會不會有其他的行政措施導致變成這個簽證競合的現象所以這部分可能也要麻煩持續跟外交部這邊來做處理"},{"start":486.676,"end":510.513,"text":"那另外就是如果如果說依照我們現在從國外引進這個框框裡面的第三項要修正仲介評鑑的要點來引導仲介機構優先處理仲正這是一個很好的方向至少我們讓仲正的這個機構知道他們必須要針對仲正當作一個優先處理的一個對象那請問"},{"start":511.634,"end":535.308,"text":"要怎麼修正所謂的修正是往哪個方向修正還有目前修正的時程那完備了嗎跟委員報告就有關於從國外引進端第一個部分是我們跟四個來源國在相關的會議或者是溝通上都有促請他們在這一方面多於配合他們也都有答應"},{"start":535.968,"end":561.985,"text":"那當然這個具體的人數會涉及到當地進來之前包括語文包括相關照護技術的一個培訓的量所以還在處理當中但是來源國大概都有表達願意配合的部分那第二部分是有關於簽證的部分我們在外館那一邊也預見可能會有一些數量的增加那這些數量的增加會增加外館同仁的負荷所以我們也"},{"start":563.025,"end":580.149,"text":"提供了相應的人力的補助給外交部在外管的部分可以去做相應的處理那在處理面向當然就盡量讓重症家庭能夠不會比現在的引進的時程拖延至少要維持住目前的狀況能夠提早是更好"},{"start":580.649,"end":609.969,"text":"那第三個部分是在國內的部分國內的部分我們其實在家庭看護工我們是有一站式的服務在這一邊移民署的居留簽證會在那個時候就已經相應的做處理所以這部分大概請委員放心那至於大家也提到說仲介的部仲介是不是會有欺重責輕或者是其他相應的事情所以我們在仲介這部分我們會透過仲介的評鑑來做相應的要求案處理"},{"start":610.689,"end":631.717,"text":"我們的仲介業的制度當然分成不同的等級那不同的等級有些一定年限是要退場的那有些他是可以有一些獎勵或者是後續免貧的機制我們在這裡面會去要求仲介業者在這中間服務重症家庭的狀況要達到一定的要求那相應的細節我們現在在規劃當中我們會盡快來處理"},{"start":634.518,"end":659.349,"text":"是 所以如果這方面的評鑑要點有修正到一個程度可不可以提供給委員會或是我們的辦公室來做參考好 謝謝那再過來就是有關於補足第一線人力這個也是一個重要的配套那我們剛剛也聽次長知道說有關於這個駐外這個使館的簽證的僱員會增加10名包括印尼有6名 越南3名 菲律賓1名"},{"start":660.369,"end":676.902,"text":"當然可能還要才需要的話事實再來做調整那其他的包括各縣市的長照管理中心還有這個事務中心分別增加一共原有是188名那另外我們也注意到為了要提升地方的審查的這個諮詢"},{"start":678.363,"end":693.151,"text":"他設立了一個叫做查查諮詢督導員這個督導員目前是有為了這個法新增了補助地方政府90名這樣的人力我們也知道這樣的人力其實是很辛苦因為他要到現場去確認去了解"},{"start":696.233,"end":717.291,"text":"我們進來這個勞工他在工作性質有沒有偏離他當初要看護的這個需求那如果違規的話當然就需要做後續的處理那我們擔心的就是如果真的擴增到這麼多的申請案的話那我們這樣的人力到時候假設因應不足的話還有沒有其他的配套措施"},{"start":718.011,"end":738.003,"text":"這一部分跟委員報告相應的部分因為剛才其實也很多委員關切這10萬或者是多少人那我們目前觀察的趨勢是這個案子基本上第一週跟第二週大概第二週會比第一週成長了兩倍那未來整個的趨勢大概一定會跟目前的中正家庭會受到一些影響"},{"start":738.903,"end":754.574,"text":"那未來這有關於相關的配套措施我們都在隨時觀察相應的數據在滾動檢討當中人不夠我們就會盡量去提供更衝突的人力錢不夠我們就會盡量在預算方面再去做相應的處理這邊請委員放心"},{"start":755.434,"end":782.717,"text":"是的我相信如果是有這個預算需求的話應該所有委員都會努力的來促成那再過來就是有兩個建議事項也請部理次長這邊參考一下因為我們剛剛也聽到蘇文委員非常擔心我們從這個報表裡面可以看得出來在114年的6月2號重現的就是身心障礙者如果依照他的這個整體的身心障礙者來看有123萬"},{"start":784.418,"end":809.31,"text":"那如果把這個急重度跟重度加進來也有34萬左右這個未來其實都是很潛在需要接受照顧的這一群那我們現在初估是10萬嘛那當然跟衛護部這邊也有很密切的合作如何能夠讓這個身心障礙者能夠得到大家共同的支持之下讓他們的這個生活家庭的這些負擔可以有效的減輕"},{"start":810.41,"end":832.537,"text":"所以根據未來這樣的需求也希望兩個部會能夠持續的密切合作針對於不管是長照3.0以後帶來這些影響幫忙還有針對這個就業服務法修正以後帶來的衝擊影響都能夠持續的來做相關的這些討論還有互相的合作"},{"start":833.197,"end":852.34,"text":"那另外就是有關於其實大家很擔心這些重症的家庭他們為了要讓這些服務人力可以到位那他需要包括相關的這個移工的這個就業安定費的這個部分"},{"start":852.941,"end":876.156,"text":"那有沒有機會請部長再跟請部長再跟大家討論看看能不能停徵就重症家庭申請移工的就業安定會這方面的這些帶來的衝擊這種費用我想如果能夠針對重症家庭提供相關這樣的這個服務內容的話對這些家庭來講應該是有"},{"start":878.077,"end":896.463,"text":"很感心因為他要照顧這個重症的家人已經非常非常的辛苦了如果能夠有這樣的這個處置的話相信對他們是有很大的一個安心感最後就是希望能夠老公部所提出的這些跨部會協商方案都能夠要落實那也希望"},{"start":897.083,"end":913.416,"text":"我們知道今天在討論重症那其他都是剛剛部長也提到就是用一般的處理方式所以未來針對這個這麼越來越多元的需求量能越來越大的需求之下怎麼來一併的評估因應的這些需要性"},{"start":914.056,"end":942.683,"text":"那最後也真的是希望能夠投入資源給重症家庭有十足的幫助那這部分再麻煩市長跟委員報告第一個部分就是有關於國內的生醫障礙者超過100萬那我們其實在高齡化的社會已經來臨所以我們對很多失能的長者或生醫障礙的朋友其實是需要做更多的照顧其實國內整體的政策會從長照2.0走到長照3.0這部分是我們國內整體照顧的主力"},{"start":943.243,"end":961.307,"text":"那有一部分會是在進入到家庭裡面是由外刊的部分來做相應的處理那這邊有剛才包括王委員林委員很多委員有指教結構性的問題我們會跟衛福部再來做仔細的盤點參考日本的經驗來做對接這第一個部分要跟委員報告"},{"start":961.887,"end":982.069,"text":"然後第二部分是有關於就業安定費的部分就業安定費當時的理解是為了讓使用者付費然後能夠避免影響到國內的勞動條件所以就業安定費收來的就業安定基金才會用在促進國民就業提升勞工福祉還有跨國勞動力事務管理這幾個主要的面向"},{"start":982.629,"end":1009.836,"text":"那以那個低收或中低收這些經濟弱勢的家庭目前都是免收就業安定費的大概我們估計相關統計大概有1.2萬那至於說未來因應這樣一個修法的趨勢還有未來就業安定費整體的檢討我們會跟整體的制度面再來一起做相應的做一些細部的討論那這邊委員的意見我們會把它納入討論的內容和參考謝謝委員"},{"start":1012.037,"end":1020.454,"text":"好非常感謝次長的這個部分給我們的回應那也謝謝主席讓我能夠充分的發言感謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時45分）感謝，謝謝召委跟大家的祝福。"],["主席：王委員可以許願不計時間，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。就麻煩次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["陳次長明仁：王委員生日快樂。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。今天這個題目很重要，透過就業服務法第四十六條的修正以後，引發剛剛像林淑芬委員所提到的核心問題，這是大家一直要面對的，也透過這次問題的呈現，大家越有機會把相關的問題釐清以後怎麼因應，所以我很佩服大家，各位委員還有所有官員在應對這個問題的時候所做的努力，我們也期待在大家用心地處理之下，能夠有機會慢慢地脫離這個困境。","這邊我還是有幾個需要跟次長還有部內一起討論的地方，就是重症家庭的衝擊跟配套措施，畢竟重症家庭所受到的衝擊、影響還是比較立即而且明顯的。我們當初在修法的時候也擔心以80歲切割，是不是會跟目前大家討論的這些困境有直接的關聯？我相信這是可以看到的狀況。貴部也提了六個配套措施，我們就逐一來看一下其中的兩、三個，目前在實際的狀況上是怎麼處理的，包括針對國內承接順位列最優先，這也是一個配套；另外，針對協調移工來源國能夠確保量能跟品質，這是大家非常關心的部分，還有如何補足第一線人力，為了因應這個修法導致人力的需求，他們的工作量或面對這些問題的時候，如何能夠讓他們有效地面對這樣的困境；最後是不是除了剛剛所提到的擴編預算支持看護家庭，包括衛福部也提供喘息服務，這次也看到編列了11.8億，針對這部分來加強。","今天就利用這個機會跟部裡面、跟次長就教一下，第一個部分，重症家庭國內承接順位列最優先，我們可以從畫面上看到，當一個重症案有這個需求的時候，他有兩個可能性取得招募許可，國外引進的部分我們等一下再談，我們先看國內的承接。目前在處理上會把它變成一個最優先的承接順序，而且在14天裡面如果目前在臺灣的移工已經有被釋放出來的話，他可以在14天裡面承接。當然這14天很有可能在媒合的時候，他發現這個對象不是他願意的，所以他也可以有選擇權。假設他在7天的選擇權裡面，後來沒有媒合成功，這個14天要怎麼算？未來在執行上可能不同縣市或中央有沒有一定的處理模式？避免到時候每個縣市覺得我的14天是從一開始就是14天；另外有縣市說：我因為媒合7天不成功，就從第7天開始算14天。未來避免執行上的困難或執行上的差異性，這部分等一下要請次長說明一下。","還有媒合率要怎麼確保？因為選擇輕症還有自由時間多的，這個是人性啦！如果是我們的話也會做這些選擇，那我們怎麼能夠從國內承接的媒合率去掌握？未來如果真的媒合率很低的話，很顯然這個部分需要再做政策上的檢討或是一些執行上的參考；另外，如果我們要開放重症家庭跨業別承接的話，如何能夠完成補充訓練？當然這個過程裡面，其實直聘中心的量能就非常非常的重要，目前直聘中心的量能有辦法應付或面對國內承接這樣的困境等問題嗎？次長。"],["陳次長明仁：首先跟委員報告，非常謝謝委員的關心，有關重症家庭國內承接優先的部分，一般國內承接大概都沒有……原來都是隨案辦理，但是我們這次特別針對重症家庭預定的優先，所以他會依照輕重分流的角度來理解，一旦有移工要在國內承接的狀況，我們優先處理重症家庭的媒合，這個媒合大概就會在14天裡面相應處理，剛才委員提到技術面的問題，我們會注意。","第二個部分，當然國內媒合的部分還是必須要雇主跟移工雙方面都能夠互相同意和理解，才會有辦法媒合成功，這部分我們會盡力地做相應的媒合，媒合的頻率和次數我們會加強。","第三個部分，關於直聘中心也好，相關就服站的媒合部分也好，我們會提升相關的人力多做一些事情，包括我們後面所講的相關人力的部分，包括衛福部的照管中心，包括勞動部相應的人力，以及未來在外館的簽證部分，還有未來引進之後，地方上探視或看訪的勞動人員，這些相關的人力，我們通通會在後面估算出來，也做了一些相應的編配，大概188人左右，所以委員的建議我們有充分地注意到。當然最終還是會取決於勞雇雙方的合意，這部分我們會儘可能協助大家做完整、相應地介接，儘量能讓重症家庭在這一波的衝擊降到最低。"],["王委員正旭：好。針對14天的起算跟時效過程的計算，可能部裡面還是要先確認。"],["陳次長明仁：我們會注意。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。再來就是有關於重症案進入招募許可的過程，如果自國外引進移工來協助幫忙照顧的話，我們知道移工要進到臺灣需要有3個單位的審查，包括簽證的部分是外交部，聘僱許可是勞動部就是貴部，居留證是移民署，這就是剛剛提到為什麼我們需要仲介來協助，有它一定的道理跟冗長的過程。所以這部分想要確認，在外館優先處理的部分，有沒有跟外交部做過相關的協商，或者是請他們來幫忙？另外，我們也知道工作資格其實有很多種，目前討論的照顧部分是其中一種，這會不會有其他的行政措施，導致簽證競合的現象？所以這部分可能也要麻煩持續跟外交部處理。","如果說我們現在從國外引進，要修正仲介評鑑的要點，引導仲介機構優先處理重症家庭需求，這是一個很好的方向，至少讓處理重症的機構知道，他們必須要把重症當作優先處理的對象。請問要怎麼修正，往那個方向修正？還有目前修正的時程完備了嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，關於從國外引進端，第一個部分是我們跟4個來源國在相關的會議或者是溝通上，都有促請他們在這一方面多配合，他們也都有答應，當然具體的人數會涉及到從當地進來之前，包括語文、相關照護技術培訓的量能，所以還在處理當中，但是來源國大概都有表達願意配合。第二個有關於簽證的部分，我們在外館也預見可能會有一些數量增加，這些數量會增加外館同仁的負荷，所以我們提供相應的人力輔助給外交部，讓外館可以做相應的處理；在處理面向，當然儘量讓重症家庭能夠不會比現在的引進時程拖延，至少要維持住目前的狀況，能夠提早是更好。第三個在國內的部分，我們其實在家庭看護工有一站式的服務，移民署的居留簽證會在那個時候就已經做相應的處理，所以這部分請委員放心。","至於大家提到仲介是不是會有棄重擇輕或者是其他相應的事情，所以在仲介這部分，我們會透過仲介評鑑來做相應的要求和處理。仲介的制度分成不同等級，有些是一定年限要退場，有些是有一些獎勵或者是後續免評的機制，我們會要求仲介業者在服務重症家庭時的狀況要達到一定的要求，現正在規劃相應的細節，我們會儘快處理。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以如果這方面的評鑑要點有修正到一個程度時，可不可以提供給委員會或是我們的辦公室做參考？"],["陳次長明仁：好的。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。再來就是有關於補足第一線人力，這也是一個重要的配套，我們剛剛聽次長說，有關駐外使館的簽證雇員會增加10名，包括印尼有6名，越南3名、菲律賓1名，當然可能還是要依需求再來適時調整。其他包括各縣市的長照管理中心及事務中心，分別增加員額一共是188名。而且我們注意到為了提升地方的審查諮詢，設立了查察諮詢督導員，目前為了這個修法，新增補助地方政府90名的人力。我們知道這些人力其實很辛苦，因為他要到現場去確認、了解引進來的勞工，工作性質有沒有偏離當初要看護的需求？如果有違規的話，當然就需要做後續的處理。我們擔心的就是如果真的擴增到這麼多申請案的話，假設到時候人力因應不足，還有沒有其他的配套措施？"],["陳次長明仁：這一部分跟委員報告，關於相應的部分，剛才其實也有很多委員關切10萬或者是多少人，我們目前觀察的趨勢是，這個案子基本上第一週跟第二週相比，大概第二週會比第一週成長2倍。未來整個的趨勢，大概目前的重症家庭會受到一些影響，未來相關的配套措施，我們都在隨時觀察相應的數據滾動檢討，人不夠，我們就會儘量提供更充足的人力；錢不夠，我們就會儘量在預算方面再去做相應的處理，請委員放心。"],["王委員正旭：好，是的，我相信如果有這個預算需求的話，應該所有委員都會努力促成。","再來有兩個建議事項，也請次長參考一下，因為我們剛剛也聽到淑芬委員非常擔心，從這份114年6月2日的報表可以看出來，整體的身心障礙者有123萬人，如果把急重度跟重度加進來，也有34萬左右，這些其實都是未來潛在需要接受照顧的一群，而現在初估是10萬。當然跟衛福部很密切的合作，如何讓身心障礙者能夠得到大家共同支持，讓他們的生活、家庭負擔可以有效的減輕，所以根據未來這樣的需求，也希望兩個部會能夠持續地密切合作，不管是針對長照3.0以後帶來的影響，還是針對就業服務法修正以後帶來的衝擊，都能夠持續做相關討論，還有互相合作。","其實大家很擔心這些重症的家庭，為了要讓這些服務人力可以到位，他需要繳交相關的移工就業安定費，有沒有機會請部長再跟大家討論看看，能不能停徵重症家庭申請移工的就業安定費？這方面帶來的衝擊，我想如果能夠針對重症家庭提供相關服務內容的話，這些家庭應該會很感心啦，因為他要照顧重症的家人已經非常非常辛苦了，如果能夠有這樣的處置，相信對他們是很大的安心感。","最後就是希望勞動部所提出的跨部會協商方案都能夠落實。我們知道今天在討論重症，其他部分剛剛部長也提到是用一般的處理方式，所以針對未來越來越多元、量能越來越大的需求，怎麼來一併評估、因應這些需要。最後真的是希望能夠投入資源給重症家庭，有實質的幫助，這部分再麻煩次長。"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，第一個部分，就是有關於國內的身心障礙者超過100萬，高齡化社會已經來臨，所以對於很多失能的長者或身心障礙的朋友，需要做更多的照顧。其實國內整體的政策會從長照2.0走到長照3.0，這部分是我們國內整體照顧的主力，有一部分會進入家庭裡面，是由外看來做相應的處理。剛才包括王委員、林委員，很多委員指教結構性的問題，我們會再跟衛福部仔細地盤點，參考日本的經驗對接，這是第一個部分要跟委員報告。","第二部分是有關於就業安定費的部分，當時對就業安定費的理解是為了讓使用者付費，避免影響到國內的勞動條件，所以就業安定費收來成立的就業安定基金才會用在促進國民就業、提升勞工福祉還有跨國勞動力事務管理這幾個主要的面向，目前低收或中低收這些經濟弱勢的家庭都是免收就業安定費的，根據相關統計大概有1.2萬，至於未來因應這樣一個修法的趨勢，還有未來就業安定費整體的檢討，我們會從整體的制度面再來一起做相應的細部討論，委員的意見我們會納入討論的內容和參考，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：好，非常感謝次長的回應，也謝謝主席讓我能夠充分的發言，感謝！"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝次長，祝王委員生日快樂！心想事成！身體健康！福如東海，壽比南山！把你的生日祝福分享給大家，讓大家都快樂。","接下來請鄭委員正鈐、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","現在輪到本席發言，請王正旭委員代理主席。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：請劉建國召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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40%但是汇率如果不稳定"},{"start":226.556,"end":237.603,"text":"他是100%所以我们现在早是重点上面就短期里面我们希望在关税你就暂时用20加n的这样的一个条件"},{"start":238.618,"end":262.942,"text":"去努力那是我减少那个汇率的变数减少汇率的变数不就你在说是开始很多抽象的形象因为对他们来说竞争条件没有改变除了日韩比我们好其他我们主要竞争国家如果是在一些传统产业可能像泰国 越南竞争改变不大因为他们的关税顶多比我们少个一趴"},{"start":263.902,"end":285.688,"text":"不然就是一樣像印度是還多我們5%所以競爭不變的情況之下匯率就是的漲跟跌就是直接的硬傷所以這個是確實有這樣的一個狀況但是產業現在還有的面對的一個課題就是說因為台灣的產業的佈局過去就是走全世界了"},{"start":286.668,"end":301.521,"text":"過去台灣產業 我們台灣人就做到這種事已經都在全世界佈局了所以台灣產業在全世界佈局的時候他一樣會有面對說每一個國家跟美國的狀況不同然後影響他接下來的佈局"},{"start":302.222,"end":322.474,"text":"所以我現在是說部長那你有再進一步的跟產業聊說好那如果現在台灣的20加N那跟東南亞甚至全世界的國家那這一些產業他們未來會改變他們的佈局模式嗎是 報告委員我們大概有三個措施第一個就是給金融支持"},{"start":323.342,"end":342.836,"text":"金融你可能要贷款贷款往后延这个我们做金融师第二个升级转型升级转型第一个我们增加它的升级的条件利用AI应用帮助它在制造的时候升级第二个利用节能减碳降低它的操作成本"},{"start":343.816,"end":364.472,"text":"第三个帮助他供购一些这个是在国内他们的升级但是最重要是开拓市场开拓美国以外的市场包括我们如何在印度如何在中东如何在东南亚把这个新的市场开拓出来那这个我们也编了"},{"start":365.593,"end":379.88,"text":"這個比較大的這個開拓市長的費用所以總統有特別指示總統跟院長在這一期我們在115年就是說今後的這個所有的費用裡面這個加很大錢加很大然後這個"},{"start":381.936,"end":399.228,"text":"讓我們在開拓市場上面能夠更大的發揮就是台灣的在地產業開拓市場美國以外的市場那部長那你判斷會不會有產業他們因為關稅的這個變數存在讓他考慮他要到美國設廠"},{"start":400.868,"end":428.529,"text":"考慮直接因為他可能原本就有在美國就已經有有公司了現在他進一步的在美國乾脆直接用部分的產業鏈在美國那以後要銷售美國的就直接直接在美國會不會有這樣的公司存在報告委員現在這個有兩個方向第一個就是說我們經濟部本來就有在為這個國內的廠商拓展海外所以我們在去年設了捷克的這個貿易投資貿易中心對"},{"start":429.229,"end":456.929,"text":"然后我们在今年的4月在福冈日本福冈这个月上个礼拜我们在Dallas也设了这个美国投资贸易中心这个贸易中心就是帮助我们国内厂商先进入到这个市场所以我们会在自由贸易港区里面设置这个所谓的仓储跟配送的这个服务让它减少因为我们可以帮它并贵各方面部长这个厂商是有的哦"},{"start":457.469,"end":484.286,"text":"我相信你這樣講我們鼓勵過去台灣在做鋼鋁的他們因為美國跟他們科很重的稅嘛所以事實上有一些鋼鐵公司他們早就在美國設廠了沒錯 我們會買通路我會鼓勵廠商他們去經營通路我們就協助他找到美國的通路商然後我們請他們能夠M&A去好 部長"},{"start":485.339,"end":510.62,"text":"台灣的民間的這個生命力很強所以他們知道在美國的關稅之下他們要做什麼產業的佈局這個我們對民間投資有信心那我們也知道說台灣國內的部分我們協助他們拓展國內市場但是我覺得經濟部現在有一件事是你們要協助我們接下來在跟美國的談判的一個團隊我們要做什麼事就是說如果台灣"},{"start":511.801,"end":526.091,"text":"未來美國會不會要求類似日本 類似韓國要求台灣也是要投資美國這一段很有可能會發生 不能排除可以預期 對不對好 既然這件事是可以預期的"},{"start":526.892,"end":551.67,"text":"那現在台灣要投資美國的原本他們的計畫有投資美國的事實上經濟部現在應該要先把它先做一個數字的統計起來這些統計的數字咧都是未來我們一旦台灣是需要面對美國川普開出條件的時候這些都是我們的籌碼所以我覺得這件事經濟部可以開始去著手"},{"start":552.29,"end":577.421,"text":"雖然現在還沒有看到條件 但是你怎麼開始去判證啊這就是我們國家的理論 如何在這一次跟川普的談判也許跟川普的談判 因為剛剛講了還有中國因素這個時間我們沒辦法預測 有可能會比想像的還要久一點的時間那我們就有這個時間先把台灣投資美國這件事情 先把這個事理念出來"},{"start":578.041,"end":600.218,"text":"這些壽禮越漂亮的話基本上我們如果期待這些禮藏都被他花好熱愛這些都是我們最好的籌碼民間都是台灣所有的台灣人都是我們談判的一個最好的的一個一個背光啊是不是 部長這個委員講得非常正確啦齁這個我們都在進行中好 那要繼續努力啦是 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時52分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請郭部長？"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，從8月1號20%的關稅以來，我想現在所有產業觀望的居多，大家也都還在期待我們對外宣示的暫時性關稅最後的談判結果。部長，如果你來判斷的話，這個暫時性關稅跟美國繼續談判，這段時間差不多會多久？"],["郭部長智輝：以我們所收集的情報，臺灣的關稅應該跟美國要與中國談的關稅有一些關聯性存在。"],["蔡委員易餘：美國跟中國還沒有談完嘛，所以跟中國當然是一個很重要的節點，那你的意思是我們會受到中國的干擾？"],["郭部長智輝：我們倒是認為現在的20%關稅，往下走是我們的目標啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦，大家都是這樣期待，繼續要往下走嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：但是美國希望對中國課比較高的稅，然後會用臺灣來做一個衡量的基準，也有這麼樣的一個說法。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以部長你這樣說……"],["郭部長智輝：有一些學者也做這樣的討論。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以臺灣真正的關稅定案有可能在美國跟中國談完，有可能會變？"],["郭部長智輝：我有訪談了很多的業者，也訪談了很多的智庫，他們都建議臺灣不要這麼快就敲定，當然如果一開始就能夠敲定到我們理想的關稅，譬如我們現在都希望，就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：仿照日本、韓國。"],["郭部長智輝：日本、韓國，有天花板……"],["蔡委員易餘：不要疊加，走向15%。"],["郭部長智輝：對，不要疊加，15%……"],["蔡委員易餘：我們有同等的……"],["郭部長智輝：對，如果我們現在談可以一下子談到這個點，我覺得這個是我們大家樂見的，但如果不是這樣的情形，很多智庫的評斷認為，可能美國跟中國談定了以後，我們會比較好談。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，這是談判策略的運用，所以部長，你會這樣做判斷，基本上，我認為這個可能性是有的，所以你剛剛這樣講的，基本上我是接受會有這樣的可能，但是這個結果就會變成，我剛剛說產業在觀望，這個觀望期間就會變得更久。"],["郭部長智輝：我們在產業觀望的這一段期間裡面，我們都做出幾個solution、做出幾個方式，希望幫助產業能夠度過這一陣子比較尷尬的期間，我訪談了非常多的公協會，也訪談很多的廠商，他們倒是對關稅20%+N這個命題……當然是很重要，但是他們更重要的是匯率的問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：匯率啦！"],["郭部長智輝：因為他說美國大概占了50%、30%、40%，但是匯率如果不穩定，這個影響是100%，所以我們短期裡面，我們希望在關稅的部分就暫時用20%+N這樣的條件去努力，但是我們減少匯率的變數。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你這樣說確實是很多廠商的心聲，因為對他們來說，競爭條件沒有改變，除了日、韓比我們好，其他我們主要競爭國家，如果是在一些傳統產業，可能像泰國、越南，競爭改變不大，因為他們的關稅頂多比我們少個1%，不然就是一樣，像印度還多我們5%，所以競爭不變的情況之下，匯率漲跟跌就是直接的硬傷，所以這個是確實有這樣的狀況。","但是產業現在面對的一個課題，就是因為臺灣產業的布局，過去就是走全世界了，過去我們臺灣人很會做生意了，就已經都在全世界布局了，所以臺灣產業在全世界布局的時候，他一樣面對每一個國家跟美國的狀況不同，影響他接下來的布局，所以我現在的意思是，部長，那你有再進一步的跟產業聊，如果現在臺灣的20%+N，跟東南亞，甚至全世界的國家，這一些產業，他們未來會改變他們的布局模式嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們大概有三個措施，第一個就是給金融支持，你可能要貸款或是貸款往後延，我們提供金融支持。第二個升級轉型，升級轉型第一個，我們增加他升級的條件，利用AI應用幫助他在製造的時候升級，第二個利用節能減碳降低他的操作成本，第三個是幫助他共構一些……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，這個是在國內的升級嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：對，國內。但是最重要的是開拓市場，開拓美國以外的市場，包括我們如何在印度、如何在中東、如何在東南亞把新的市場開拓出來，這個我們也編了比較大的開拓市場的費用，總統有特別指示，總統跟院長在這一期，我們在115年，也就是今後所有的費用裡面把錢加很大，讓我們在開拓市場上面能有更大的發揮。"],["蔡委員易餘：OK，就是臺灣在地產業開拓美國以外的市場。部長，你判斷會不會有產業因為關稅的變數存在，讓他們考慮到美國設廠？因為他可能原本在美國就已經有公司了，現在他乾脆進一步讓部分產業鏈在美國，以後要銷售美國的就直接在美國設廠，會不會有這樣的公司存在？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在有兩個方向。第一個，我們經濟部本來就有為國內的廠商拓展海外，所以我們在去年設了捷克的投資貿易中心，然後我們在今年4月在日本福岡，這個月上個禮拜我們在Dallas設了美國投資貿易中心，貿易中心就是幫助我們國內廠商先進入到這個市場，所以我們會在自由貿易港區裡面設置所謂的倉儲跟配送服務，讓他減少……因為我們可以幫他併櫃，各方面……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這個廠商是有的喔！剛剛你這樣講，我們鼓勵……"],["郭部長智輝：現在就是對於要去美國生產的……"],["蔡委員易餘：過去臺灣在做鋼鋁的，因為美國跟他們課很重的稅嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以事實上有一些鋼鐵公司早就在美國設廠了。"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯，我們會買通路，也鼓勵廠商去經營通路。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["郭部長智輝：我們協助他們找到美國的通路商，然後我們請他們能夠M&A去……"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，臺灣民間的生命力很強，所以他們知道在美國的關稅之下要做什麼產業的布局，這個我們對民間投資有信心。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們也知道，臺灣國內的部分，我們協助他們拓展國內市場，但我覺得經濟部現在有一件事是你們要協助我們接下來跟美國談判的團隊。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們要做什麼事？就是未來美國會不會要求，類似日本、類似韓國，要求臺灣也要投資美國？這一段很有可能會發生，不能排除嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：可以預期。"],["蔡委員易餘：既然這件事是可以預期的，那現在臺灣要投資美國的，原本他們的計畫有投資美國的，事實上經濟部現在應該要先把它做一個統計數字，這些統計的數字，未來一旦臺灣是需要面對美國川普開出條件的時候，這些都是我們的籌碼。所以我覺得這件事經濟部可以開始著手，雖然現在還沒有看到條件，但是你們要開始去盤整。我們國內的力量如何在這一次跟川普的談判……也許跟川普的談判，因為剛剛講了還有中國的因素，這個時間我們沒辦法預測，有可能會比想像的還要久一點的時間。那我們就有這個時間先把臺灣投資美國的這件事情，先把這個數字抓出來，這個數字越漂亮的話，基本上我們如果期待這20%要再把它喊下來，這些都是我們最好的籌碼，民間、所有臺灣人都是我們談判上最好的background，是不是？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員講的非常正確，這個我們都在進行中。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那要繼續努力，加油！"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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國退民進的事情就原來講這個國營企業民營化是世界的潮流全球化的潮流是這樣子的民營化怎麼樣把國家的企業特別是貫穿國家"},{"start":193.021,"end":205.676,"text":"中國大陸也好啦 蘇聯也好啦等等共產國家都是國營失業國營失業變成民營化造就一波的整個國家的一個經濟的火力出來了那現在呢 現在又倒回去了"},{"start":206.812,"end":233.485,"text":"所以你剛講一句很有意思你說這個美國是跟中國大陸跑一樣中國也是目前有一點這個味道變成是民退國進就國家的原來補貼的變成一個要投資的這個我就在請教你了台積電可不可以跟他說NO如果這樣66億美金的補貼我不要了我不要了你這樣子這樣"},{"start":235.936,"end":258.129,"text":"硬來的我不要了可以不可以這個我想我要去請教台積電我不能夠帶台積電台積電政府有股份我們國發基金股份有6%之多對 但是我們只有一席董事我們只有一席董事但是你知道台積電現在有幾席董事"},{"start":259.215,"end":275.228,"text":"有幾席的董事 台積電現在就是一般的這個名股大概是五席嘛對 有幾席的董事 你知道嗎 其他大概是獨立董事他獨立董事有人講六席 有人講七席啊除了林全之外 其他都是外籍人士"},{"start":276.286,"end":293.3,"text":"其他都是美國人跟英國人就基本上是美國人所以我會擔心的一點是那這樣一來的話美國川普可能不是只有說我持股而已喔我要一起懂事請問台積電有沒有人力所弄"},{"start":294.495,"end":315.915,"text":"我同意委員的這個推論他有到那個股份一定可以選擇一個董事那他選擇董事就會去干預這個公司的所有的運作那他補助的時候是沒有辦法干預對那只有他進入董事會才會去干預這個我想委員的指教是非常正確的"},{"start":317.509,"end":346.411,"text":"但是在台灣台積電這個案例我想委員所擔心我們也很擔心不過他如果要這樣的話要經過我們投審會美國要經過投審會請問台積電去美國投資1000億有沒有經過投審會現在經過沒有 到現在為止他現在還沒有錢還沒有嘛 到現在還沒有嘛所以等於說美國好 那你講到一個重點喔說美國川普他如果要硬來"},{"start":349.258,"end":350.785,"text":"印象 要經過我們同意當然是脫審會啊"},{"start":353.69,"end":379.73,"text":"要經過我們同意嘛 對不對要經過我們同意嘛所以 跟我們好好談一談啦這老實講 這也是一個好的一個機會啦齁但是 我還是要講原來晶片法案不是這樣子啦美國晶片法案沒有這一條啊沒有這個option啦說我可以印來的 突然咧怎麼權力這麼大 一下子說要印來印上 幹嘛用這樣"},{"start":381.696,"end":391.981,"text":"就是你以前企業界老闆是政府給你補貼補貼二十億新台幣然後突然說我要轉成持股你敢同意 請問你如果郭董事長你敢同意"},{"start":393.558,"end":417.279,"text":"同意他 我們當然同意是要看他進入以後對我們有沒有什麼當然有干預 怎麼沒有呢如果沒有加分效果的話 我們當然不會同意什麼叫沒有加分 現在好啦 因為我時間時間差不多到了 不用講扯太久 我是跟你講如此一來 他有機會 因為他66億美金不算少數他的資本額多少台積電資本額"},{"start":421.341,"end":438.653,"text":"資本額大概2500億左右66億美金就是有一不少錢那他一來的話可能會相當大的一個比重就跟英特爾一樣取得英特爾的所以他來的話就變成是"},{"start":439.534,"end":466.861,"text":"所以倒貼了台積電變美積電啊這沒什麼錯啊 就變這個樣子啦那你搖頭 你要不要解釋一下報告委員 我想66億我們要看啊它在市場裡面可以買到我們多少的股權所以這個不是說66億跟我的資產來衡量嘛所以這個我想都可以談如果它硬要加入我們的股份嘛那當然還是可以談"},{"start":469.256,"end":479.329,"text":"我給你一個數字了外資佔有台積電73%了市值大概一兆美金左右了所以66億除以它大概"},{"start":487.415,"end":498.159,"text":"6.6%是很大的雪隆以台積電這麼股權這麼分散的一個公司來講是相當高的比例了相當高的比例所以他取得一些東西不困難"},{"start":499.389,"end":518.604,"text":"馬上進來了所以變成是以後變國運事業了以後在川普看上的半導體的重要的chip晶片的廠就是變成美國的國運事業了變這個樣子不過我想報告委員我想我們要看他這個投資是策略投資還是財務投資啊"},{"start":521.62,"end":536.293,"text":"當然是策略投資啊那個商務部長講清楚了他的目標他講得很好聽他說讓美國人納稅人的錢他能夠得到一些報酬這個話這個四平八穩可是問題是你事先沒有這樣講"},{"start":537.734,"end":561.253,"text":"事先沒有這樣講啦事先就是他的金邊法案就是給錢就給錢補助你就補助你但是美國是一個法治的國家啦那我想我們跟他第二的條件就像委員所指教的就是沒有這個條件當然我們可以拒絕可以拒絕啦好 那來投審會啊他如果真的要變成這個台積電的股東要經過我們的投審會就這個意思嘛好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":563.854,"end":568.686,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時42分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。今天外面討論比較多的是，美國政府商業部長盧特尼克特別提到，有考慮用晶片法案裡面補貼的金額換股權，他們原來取得英特爾10%股權，10%非常多，變成最大的股東，我看了一些相關資料，這個消息出來之後，英特爾的股價是下跌的。今天一樣有消息出來說，川普政府對台積電補助66億美金，準備要變成股東，結果造成股市也是下跌的，你要不要……雖然我知道你已經講了啦！不過你說這是假設性什麼之類的，你要不要從經濟部長的角度，你也是業界出身的，你怎麼看政府給企業的補助變成持股，這對企業會造成什麼影響？"],["郭部長智輝：這個有點像中國過去企業民進國退的時段到最近國進民退，大概都有這樣的痕跡在啦！我們看政府對企業的補助，美國剛開始是反對中國這樣的模式嘛，但是他覺得中國這個模式可能不會讓企業倒，所以他現在就是，我既然要補助你，我要一點股份，我要股份就可以扮演股東的角色。所以我想這個business 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所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工 看護工來每個人都要重新適應 重新教導 重新學習然後大家都住不穩定 因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊 要賺錢比較多錢啦"},{"start":208.184,"end":234.549,"text":"這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要"},{"start":235.635,"end":251.661,"text":"跳板啦 康護工其實也很多長工把康護工申請當跳板來了以後 不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠 賺多點 休息多點 比較足足的所以在這種狀況 我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主 長照康護工的僱主"},{"start":264.724,"end":270.218,"text":"即便有看護工但是也經常遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦啊"},{"start":272.732,"end":294.058,"text":"這些是大問題 這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎 不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重 那要怎麼辦"},{"start":297.455,"end":324.552,"text":"跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言署裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們執聘的執聘的資源包括我們執聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化"},{"start":325.072,"end":343.662,"text":"職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少"},{"start":344.602,"end":366.241,"text":"那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭看護工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上"},{"start":367.509,"end":369.13,"text":"他只顧著玩家解約馬上引進到工廠去生產線上"},{"start":378.191,"end":399.32,"text":"這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工"},{"start":400.06,"end":406.864,"text":"所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像"},{"start":408.069,"end":434.747,"text":"你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就他就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的"},{"start":436.788,"end":456.52,"text":"愛愛妹妹 模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭 重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛 就沒辦法"},{"start":458.661,"end":484.124,"text":"外服部也沒愛沒辦法的難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康護工來了又走來了又走很多啊我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進引進要穿進去引進進來可是呢沒有源源不絕的康護工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線"},{"start":485.846,"end":495.695,"text":"這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康護外籍康護早就是長照的主要的人手和人力"},{"start":497.365,"end":517.883,"text":"這不是替代 這都補充 台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了市康護工不然你去找長照機構 或者是請本國籍 全部都請不上去在這種狀況 我們手段用清了嗎 我現在要告訴你說"},{"start":519.397,"end":543.166,"text":"我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說"},{"start":547.216,"end":570.189,"text":"我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差 忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段"},{"start":573.05,"end":578.186,"text":"的確在一些國家他比方說在這過程裡面他會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會"},{"start":580.752,"end":602.165,"text":"讓這些看護工訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度"},{"start":603.326,"end":622.193,"text":"特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號"},{"start":623.453,"end":641.426,"text":"一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有"},{"start":642.651,"end":664.349,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會 也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工 成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施 包括文化適應形象管理 語言訓練 技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面 移工"},{"start":666.69,"end":691.351,"text":"特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留"},{"start":692.452,"end":712.432,"text":"我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意"},{"start":714.171,"end":741.697,"text":"參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術能力相關的制度所以他設計讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習減和包括語言的學習跟減和但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來"},{"start":743.223,"end":766.61,"text":"家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件真的比廠工還要賣得賣都很賣這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主"},{"start":767.469,"end":786.104,"text":"啊因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他們 完結啊你跟你的老闆完結 腰疤炒 每天炒才讓你雇主動不動 你早上對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了"},{"start":787.816,"end":805.362,"text":"委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色"},{"start":805.982,"end":833.58,"text":"那当然这里面可能他会需要有语言的学习或者是一些技能的学习那在这中间我们怎么透过公部门的资源来去协助这些语言的学习或技术技能上面的学习让这件事也就是说需要跟长照的体系来结合可是呢在家庭我们现在的长照制度外籍移工的看护就是到个别家庭里面没有什么主管啦我讲的不是主管"},{"start":834.502,"end":852.248,"text":"我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個"},{"start":856.79,"end":872.406,"text":"長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員稱呼剛剛黃部長剛說我們我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我如果委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年"},{"start":879.133,"end":886.058,"text":"我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊租過來啊在這裡我們有兩年的訓練後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過後他最主要在我們機構啊因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係"},{"start":905.313,"end":911.778,"text":"機構就適用勞基法啦對啦 我如果委員報告我們現在也在鼓勵啊我們現在在那個一年幾萬家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後 後半他就可以來進入我們這個也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡 進入哪裡啦進入機構啊"},{"start":921.633,"end":927.956,"text":"我們現在講的是說 每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工 要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年 我跟你講喔 那股票不會喝在手啦他連續幾天都要賺啦 因為沒前途沒未來我們這個喔 如果訓練成中階勞動力 他的薪資變到3萬喔我有到2萬8啦 那個是要轉換料啦"},{"start":953.137,"end":977.327,"text":"你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦 我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬 可是事實上務實面 實務面2萬有人嗎現在2萬2現在都2、3萬 2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎"},{"start":980.615,"end":999.594,"text":"沒有啦 委員長 根據勞動經濟學 這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題 為什麼逃跑 為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時 一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息 不讓他休息"},{"start":1000.575,"end":1029.887,"text":"然後呢 勞動條件這麼差 薪水不要說兩萬啦 雇主給你三萬人家看他同鄉去工地 還有加班的一個月 五萬六萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在我們也的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後"},{"start":1030.507,"end":1054.025,"text":"那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦想為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦"},{"start":1055.171,"end":1061.014,"text":"短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫一年多少錢 有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的"},{"start":1084.348,"end":1109.321,"text":"這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢來你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反應被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候5月喔執行率是101%"},{"start":1113.457,"end":1132.297,"text":"現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把它追加補"},{"start":1132.517,"end":1160.791,"text":"我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢 長照多少錢我們現在目前"},{"start":1161.912,"end":1167.138,"text":"我們這個部分 其實跟勞動部我們密切配合啦總共加起來是6億8千6百兩邊加起來6億啊我們本部我們一邊3.4 勞動部也幫我們3.4啊這樣總共6億就夠賺"},{"start":1180.632,"end":1199.863,"text":"6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不 不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系 阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉"},{"start":1201.204,"end":1216.135,"text":"現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦沒有沒有 擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛"},{"start":1226.755,"end":1245.955,"text":"到8億喔 加起來是14億喔那個是普通人也在用的 不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦那個擴大喘息服務就是家庭照顧者嘛 還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛"},{"start":1248.638,"end":1274.989,"text":"短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一那要讓希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎"},{"start":1276.249,"end":1295.534,"text":"你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去"},{"start":1296.414,"end":1312.185,"text":"而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的"},{"start":1313.206,"end":1327.319,"text":"其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力"},{"start":1328.288,"end":1345.157,"text":"然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍看護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的"},{"start":1346.467,"end":1363.558,"text":"類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你都在打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策"},{"start":1365.094,"end":1385.7,"text":"跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個"},{"start":1386.46,"end":1412.225,"text":"第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是"},{"start":1412.925,"end":1439.767,"text":"阿你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照還有這個喘息服務這是不夠的跟文說我的意思不是只有短照我剛才講到如果今天一個照顧的技術人力的話他就可以進到國家的社福的體系裡面國家的社福體系裡面的資源會比他一定只能從僱主尤其是這些一般的僱主來出會來得更加的豐富國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業的機會是多少啦"},{"start":1441.879,"end":1458.946,"text":"整個長照失能體系 國家都退位照服員 你去問照服員的待遇看有問題嗎現在已經到將近上千億了啦我們當然知道"},{"start":1469.664,"end":1492.816,"text":"現在是趙服員你去問每個失能的家庭配到的時數是多少遠遠少於需求啦這個就是我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的"},{"start":1494.117,"end":1516.92,"text":"你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說他的確是一個相對市場機制"},{"start":1518.021,"end":1530.635,"text":"可是今天在長照的資源面不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬的硬生生的把他從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制"},{"start":1533.358,"end":1555.7,"text":"但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到 吃得到"},{"start":1557.422,"end":1567.573,"text":"實惠而不是口惠是這樣子 希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西"},{"start":1572.719,"end":1576.301,"text":"還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你跟女兒一起也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把她移工當成永遠不絕永遠有啦"},{"start":1591.249,"end":1602.572,"text":"沒糖好什麼好所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化 超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時19分）好，我們是不是請洪部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天很多委員好像撿到槍一樣，馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工，大家也知道這是一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎？然後大家講得好像移工都源源不絕，移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎？移工的市場全世界都在搶工，我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就有缺10萬個工更重要的事情要討論，比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就立即缺10萬個工更重要的事情要討論。我們的確看到了一些現象，這些現象包括整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上，整個國家的移工政策、制度全部都掌握在……大家習慣都是找仲介啦，仲介這一環對移工的生態、產業，還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大，所以所有的案件，雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介，也不是透過政府，所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多，比你政府還更全面性的影響，在雇主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色。","現在來了，有這種新聞媒體上的報導，有一個重症家屬透過仲介公司請看護工，看護工到雇主有需求的家中服務以後不適應，然後仲介也沒有協調解決，最後解除契約返國，但是重症者的家庭就面臨照顧的空窗期，也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工，可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊、無人願意接案且無適合人選為由消極應對，都跟他們講找不到人、沒有人要照顧這種。事實就是這樣，重症看護的家庭沒有人要接，雇主在這種狀況裡面真的是欲哭無淚、求助無門。現在還有很多的移工來臺灣做了幾天以後，他說我不適應、想要換新雇主。但是現在很多雇主也是這樣子，看護工做沒幾天就說要轉換雇主，你如果不讓他轉換就吵架，如果吵架不讓他走，他就偷跑，所以你也只能同意他轉換雇主，然後不同的仲介再引進不同的移工、看護工來，每一個人都要重新適應、重新教導、重新學習，然後大家都待不久，因為很多移工到臺灣，他辛苦所為何來？就是為了賺更多錢啦！做看護工大家都知道，廠工如果有加班，薪水甚至是雙倍的，而且廠工的勞動條件是依照勞基法有保障，工時短，再怎麼加班都比看護工還要短，然後有休假，薪水又高，看護工大家都想要當跳板，其實也有很多廠工把申請看護工當跳板，來了以後不合，轉換雇主就要轉到工廠，賺的比較多、休息比較多、比較自主。所以我們真正的現實是這種狀況，有很多長照看護工的雇主即便有看護工，但是也經常遇到這種衝突，怎麼辦？部長，這才是大問題，這種問題現在你以為是重症與輕症相互排擠而已嗎？相互搶工而已嗎？不是！是家庭看護工與廠工的雇主在相互搶工，這個問題更嚴重，那要怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，剛剛委員講的現象我們的確都有看到，尤其在修法之後，有些現象其實有更嚴重的狀況，這些事情我們也都看到了。現在包括發展署，我們也希望對於剛剛講的直聘的資源，包括直聘中心，接下來都能夠將功能再做一些強化。"],["林委員淑芬：直聘也一樣啊！直聘就是少了剝削那一環、少了仲介那一環，可是基本結構是，家庭看護工沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法，家庭看護工的薪水比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少。作為一個移工，他就是要賺比較多，但是能夠給付給家庭看護工的薪水不及於廠工，所以如果廠工的雇主，特別是在COVID-19那段期間，仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭看護工，仲介都教他怎樣跟雇主吵架、解約，然後解約以後、同意轉換雇主以後，馬上把他引進到工廠的生產線上，這種狀況、這種結構怎麼處理啊？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確這個結構的根源其實是來自……現在這些相對應的照顧制度裡面，變成是有很多一般家庭看護工的雇主，尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好，可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工，所以這些雇主跟這個移工、看護工之間變成是一個好像你多一點，我就少一點的問題。這是為什麼勞動部一直希望引入更多的長照資源，因為如果沒有辦法透過政府引入更多的長照資源，它就會變成相互……好像你多一點，我就會少一點的結構，不管是從看護工的角度或者是從雇主的角度來說，都會非常非常辛苦，所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談，希望有更多長照資源導入的原因。"],["林委員淑芬：我聽你這樣講，其實講得曖曖昧昧、模模糊糊，大家在講弱弱相殘，因為每一個移工都是弱勢，他到臺灣來所為何事？就是要賺多一點回去照顧他的家庭嘛！每一個看護工的雇主、身障的家庭、重症的家庭，他就是弱勢當中的弱勢。你說國家要承擔起長照責任，政府就是不要、就是沒辦法，衛福部也不要，也是沒辦法，難道我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎？所以我今天要講我們現實的層面，看護工來了又走，來了又走，很多啊！我們的移工政策一直著重在引進、引進，帶進來、引進來，可是沒有源源不絕的看護工，引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線，這個問題永遠都沒有解決。在這種狀況裡面，我們的外籍看護早就是長照的主要人手和人力，這不是替代，這都是補充，臺灣人都不想做，然後弱勢家庭也只請得起看護工，不然你去住長照機構或者是請本國籍的，那根本都請不起，在這種狀況我們手段用罄了嗎？我現在要告訴你一個狀況就是，照顧是不是一項專業？照顧需不需要專業？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：不同失能家庭的照顧有不同的需求，失智者需要的可能是引導、耐心及陪伴；中風患者需要的是物理復健及技巧；末期病患可能是需要臨終照顧，所以這都是有專業的。在這種狀況裡面，我現在要講的就是，我們國家還有沒有手段和方法？領的薪水比工廠更少，然後工時、勞動條件還更差，但是仍然有誘因給外籍看護工，讓他們覺得暫時領比較少、條件比較差，忍耐一下，未來會比較好，你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段？"],["洪部長申翰：的確在一些國家，比方說，在這過程裡面，它會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習機會，讓這一些看護工……"],["林委員淑芬：訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬、長工時，我現在不是要講這個，我現在要跟你講的就是，以日本為例，他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的，他們去開發特定技能簽證制度，針對特定行業的人力補充和需求，以餐飲業為例，他們外食領域的技能簽證分成兩種，一個是特定技能一號，一個是特定技能二號，一號跟二號的差別就是，他可以攜眷，可以讓他的配偶、子女都跟著到日本長住，然後之後可以取得永久居留權，你知道嗎？特定技能一號就沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：委員講的是日本的制度。"],["林委員淑芬：在這種狀況裡面引進特定的簽證制度，不但提供就業機會，而且要當員工一樣的對待外籍移工，成為他們職涯上的引導者，透過政府的各種支援措施，包括文化適應、形象管理、語言訓練、技能提升等。移工在這種狀況裡面，特別是外籍看護移工如果在臺灣的話，他就不是短期的、填充的、補充缺口的人力，而是我們要當他是可以培育、可以發展的人才。我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會，未來也有可能是全家攜家帶眷永久居留，要把這種移工當成是未來可能人才的概念，帶到我們的長照體系裡面來，把他訓練成為長照體系專業可用的、可長可久的人力和人才，這樣是不是一種誘因？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們非常願意參考日本的經驗，委員剛才在講的事情就是日本的技術人力相關制度，它設計讓這個技術能力，包括有技能的學習與檢核，包括語言的學習與檢核，但確實它這一套制度也涉及到他是在海外的時候、在母國的時候就進行這些工作。我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意往這個方向思考跟規劃的。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要跟你講的意思是，這是結構性的因素，因為大家來，家庭看護工的待遇、薪水、工時、勞動條件等真的比廠工還要差，都非常差。這個結構因素注定了很多人申請來當家庭看護工之後，不久就要當跳板轉換到我們的工廠裡面。我們知道臺灣現在不允許自由轉換雇主，因為不允許自由轉換雇主，所以仲介都教他們吵架，他跟他的雇主吵架、早晚吵架、每天吵架，吵到雇主受不了，他偷跑對雇主也沒有好處，所以不如同意讓他轉換雇主，現在現場的衝突就是這樣子，這麼嚴重了。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，再讓我補充。我們是非常非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論、來思考，比方如果是有照顧專長的外籍技術人力的話，是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面，擔任一些相對應的角色？當然，這裡面可能他會需要語言的學習或者是一些技能的學習，在這中間我們怎麼透過公部門的資源去協助這些語言的學習或技能上面的學習？也就是說，需要跟長照的體系來結合……"],["林委員淑芬：你講的是擔任主管的職務和角色，可是在家庭裡面，以我們現在的長照制度，外籍移工的看護就是到個別家庭裡面，沒有什麼主管啦。"],["洪部長申翰：我講的不是主管，我講的不是主管，我講的是……"],["林委員淑芬：次長要講。"],["洪部長申翰：我講的是技術人力，因為現在留的時間比較久的話，其實有機會可以轉成技術人力。"],["林委員淑芬：因為照顧一個失能的人平均要7年到10年。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我講的是，如果他可以成為有技能、有照顧專業的技術人力的時候，我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些接合的點，讓這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色、有位子，我們很願意來嘗試這個方向。"],["林委員淑芬：對呀，所以次長，你來講講你的想法和做法，你覺得可行性是怎麼樣？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，誠如剛剛洪部長說的，現在兩部會來全力推動。我也跟委員報告，其實我們現在已經有兩個機制，一個是去年在輔英科技大學就有一班從越南那邊招過來的，在這裡接受兩年的訓練之後，他可以在臺灣待兩個3年，如果都沒有問題，勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力的資格，他如果通過之後，最主要是在我們機構服務，因為說實在的，我們本勞……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在講家庭看護工的困境，你不要講到機構去。"],["呂次長建德：沒關係……"],["林委員淑芬：機構就適用勞基法了啊。"],["呂次長建德：我跟委員報告，我們現在也在鼓勵，現在有二十幾萬的家庭看護，對不對？我們也可以來訓練，訓練以後，他就可以進入我們的中階勞動力……"],["林委員淑芬：你說的訓練，進入哪裡？進入哪裡啦！"],["呂次長建德：進入機構啊！我跟委員報告……"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在講的是，每一個家庭看護工如果持續成為家庭看護工，譬如要7年到10年。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員淑芬：這7年到10年，我跟你說，氣喘的人沒辦法忍得住咳嗽，他進來沒幾天就想走了啦，因為沒前途、沒未來、薪水低……"],["呂次長建德：沒有，委員，這些人如果能訓練成中階勞動力，他的薪資會變到2萬8。"],["林委員淑芬：那個是……"],["呂次長建德：有辦法到2萬8啦。"],["林委員淑芬：那是要轉換完。對，2萬8就是現在的現況，你們現況要求薪水多少？2萬啦！不是啦，我在講家庭看護工。"],["洪部長申翰：家庭看護工最低是2萬。"],["林委員淑芬：2萬，可是事實上務實面、實務面，2萬有人嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：現在大概給2萬2、2萬3。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼2萬2？現在都兩、三萬，兩、三萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎？"],["呂次長建德：委員，當然是這樣子，根據勞動經濟學，這跟單位生產力也有關係啊。"],["林委員淑芬：我跟你說，這是結構上的問題。為什麼逃跑？為什麼待不住？因為家庭看護工一天24小時、一年365天，你還可以加班費給他，不讓他休息。然後勞動條件這麼差，薪水不要說2萬，就算雇主給3萬，他們看到同鄉去工廠工作還有加班，一個月領5萬、6萬，這樣要不要吵架？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象，所以現在我們的確很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是，假設他現在是外籍的看護工，他的薪資確實比較低，如果他可以成為中階的技術工，接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面，有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的一員，成為長照體系一員的時候，他可以擁有的國家協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純的情況不一樣……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在不要空中畫大餅……"],["洪部長申翰：不是……"],["林委員淑芬：我問你們，為什麼講你空中畫大餅？你們國家的資源更多會進來，那你短照經費今年就編不夠了。短照經費不是缺了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們補上了。"],["林委員淑芬：你們國家資源給外籍看護工有兩種，一個是勞動部的就安基金移撥出來的短照經費，一個是衛福部納入的喘息計畫，一年多少錢？夠嗎？未來增加80歲以上免巴氏量表要增加多少人？你的經費有相對應地編列了嗎？不要講新增加的……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這在8月已經完成編列了，已經完成……"],["林委員淑芬：你編列多少錢？來，你編列多少錢？因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反映，被通知短照服務的經費不足，而在113年執行率是173%，114年（今年）到5月的時候，5月喔，執行率是101%。現在短照經費全部沒了，然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，上禮拜已經召開就業安定管理會……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦。"],["洪部長申翰：我們補上了……因為原本的確我們有低估，所以我們把差額、包括明年的部分把它追加補上。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你的是，這麼結構性的問題，你說引進國家資源，叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的，然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力，那麼他可以用國家更多資源。國家是有多少資源？國家資源不夠，就長照那84小時，多少錢？長照多少錢？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，目前在這個部分我們跟勞動部密切配合，總共加起來是六億八千六百……"],["林委員淑芬：不要講總共加起來，你們長照……"],["呂次長建德：兩邊加起來6億啊，我們本部是編3.4億，勞動部也幫忙編3.4億……"],["林委員淑芬：這樣總共6億叫做……"],["呂次長建德：對，我們share啊。"],["林委員淑芬：6億給二十幾萬的家庭看護移工用……"],["呂次長建德：沒有，不是這樣，我們這是擴大喘息服務，我們這是擴大的喔，委員，這要澄清，這是第一點。"],["林委員淑芬：喘息就是給長照體系……"],["呂次長建德：我們現在是擴大喘息……"],["林委員淑芬：我們說的是移工納入長照適用喘息。"],["呂次長建德：對啊。"],["林委員淑芬：所以移工用到的又更少囉。"],["呂次長建德：不是，現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務。"],["洪部長申翰：短照、長照都可以用。"],["呂次長建德：對，都可以。"],["林委員淑芬：短照服務過去編兩億多，現在又追加嘛。"],["呂次長建德：但是我委員報告，我們那邊是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息，這個我必須要說……"],["林委員淑芬：你們加起來六、七億，也是很少的啦。"],["呂次長建德：沒有，擴大喘息是6億，但是勞動部就業安定基金現在又編5億嘛，總數到8億了，所以兩個加起來是14億，我跟委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：你的6億是普通人也在用的，不是只有外籍移工專用的嘛……"],["呂次長建德：對啦，那個擴大喘息就是家庭照……"],["林委員淑芬：外籍移工是用多少啦？"],["呂次長建德：沒有，那個擴大喘息服務就是我們家庭照顧者，還有外看。"],["林委員淑芬：短照服務是……"],["呂次長建德：短照是外看。"],["林委員淑芬：是外看專用的嘛。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["洪部長申翰：短照是外籍看護，當時是因為七修一，希望能夠讓外籍看護可以有週休，所以我們規劃了短照。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，所以總的來講，以前是一年預算才3億，今年來講，我剛剛講的，113年執行率是173%，今年到5月就101%了，你們才發現不足，所以你們才要追加到五、六億嘛。本來是3億，現在是6億，可能五、六億，可是這夠嗎？你剛剛講說……我一直跟你講，這個結構上的問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭雇主跟移工之間很多的摩擦，那個摩擦的目的是為了不能自由轉換雇主而去製造衝突，讓他可以轉換出去，這種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等，來自於勞動條件上的特別惡劣。在沒有辦法解決薪資結構、也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣狀況下，你有沒有透過其他的制度，比如像日本的制度設計了未來允許攜眷來日本永久居留，用類似這種制度來留住看護的人力，然後居留下來，讓他可以忍受一時的難處，看到未來他可以永久居留，而有一個誘因，因為這個誘因只存在於外籍看護工，而廠工可能門檻更高，我們應該設計類似這樣的機制。否則你在這裡打高空，說叫國家扛起長照責任、失能照顧責任，但國家不願意，一直退位，然後仰賴仲介，讓仲介控制著市場和政策。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我們其實現在也正在檢討技術人力的制度，而技術人力制度的檢討也是正在參考日本的做法，所以我們近期包括發展署也不斷地在跟日本交流，就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法，因為日本的某些作法真的是值得我們參考的，這是第一個。第二個，的確在制度上面，如果他成為中階的技術人力之後，比方他回去的年限就可以拿掉，所以技術人力是可以長期留下來的。"],["林委員淑芬：是。"],["洪部長申翰：所以為什麼我剛才跟委員說，我們很希望怎麼樣來協助藍領的移工，他可以更順暢地轉成技術人力，然後在這個部分，他可能會有相對應的權利保障，甚至資源。"],["林委員淑芬：配套更多？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛講的資源就只有你們的短照，還有喘息服務，這是不夠的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我的意思不是只有短照，我剛才說如果他今天一個照顧的技術人力的話，他就可以進到國家的社福體系裡面，國家社福體系的資源會比他只能從一定雇主，尤其是會比一般雇主來得更加豐富。"],["林委員淑芬：國家的體系裡面能夠提供的就業機會是多少啦？整個長照失能體系，國家都退位……"],["呂次長建德：沒有退位啦！我們的照服員從2萬5,000塊增加到現在10萬了。"],["林委員淑芬：你去問照服員的待遇看有沒有穩定。"],["呂次長建德：現在也增加到4萬，馬英九的時候2萬5,000塊，我們現在4萬啊！"],["林委員淑芬：應該這樣說，馬英九時代一年長照的經費50億，現在已經將近上千億了，我們當然知道。"],["呂次長建德：對啊！所以民進黨政府現在很負責任嘛。"],["林委員淑芬：現在你去問照服員，每一個失能家庭配到的時數是多少？遠遠少於需求，我們知道蔡英文總統任內把它上升到八百多億；賴總統任內上升到九百多億。"],["呂次長建德：對、對。"],["林委員淑芬：可是你要知道整個失能照顧的體系，不是上千億就足夠的，也還是都不夠嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你剛才講到結構的困境，我們都是同意的，所以要解這個結構的困境，勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入，才能夠緩解包括你剛才講弱弱相殘的狀況，所以資源包括制度上面，因為今天在移工聘僱體系裡面，坦白說它的確是一個相對市場機制，可是今天在長照的資源面……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有、沒有，不是市場機制，你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策，硬生生地把它從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的。"],["洪部長申翰：是，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：這個不是市場機制。"],["洪部長申翰：是，但是需要一些國家的資源，才能夠去緩解剛才在講的那個結構的困境，這就是為什麼我們跟衛福部包括呂次長一直在談，我們希望未來在這裡面能夠有所突破，就是透過技術人力，能不能成為技術人力或是讓技術人力的相關配套更健全，這部分我們也在參考日本的制度。"],["林委員淑芬：誘因要看得到、吃得到，要實惠而不是口惠，是這樣子，希望你們回去再想一想，先這樣子。我最後再講一句，不是在這裡說有10萬人增加資格了，是不是馬上缺工10萬人，不是討論這個東西，還有比馬上缺多少工更重要的事，永遠都在缺，因為勞動上不公平、不平等的結構如果存在的話，讓你再10萬人來也是這個問題，都是這個問題，還有不要把移工當成源源不絕，永遠有啦！沒辦法那麼好，所以我們真的要好好思考我們的勞動力政策，未來少子化、超高齡化，臺灣的問題也是全世界的問題，真的很嚴重。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回。","接下來請王正旭委員，今天是王正旭委員的聖誕千秋，我們恭祝他生日快樂。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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當然對於這個我們的這個台灣的這些要買車的人當然是一個好消息但是對於台灣的這些這個"},{"start":127.438,"end":155.498,"text":"这个零件车子零件的业者或整车业者当然会受到影响那有没有想到说会受到什么样的影响呢就国产汽车来讲我们大概就是如果进口车那关税是零或者是这个比较低的这个关税的时候那么会影响到台湾的可能就是汽车零组件还有在台湾制造的这个汽车嘛这个部分我们大概都有跟业者还继续在"},{"start":156.775,"end":169.719,"text":"在共同努力啦就是說沒有沒有一個比較具體我問兩個比較具體的就好了就是說這個國產車自治率的一個條件然後呢還有這個國內無產制國內沒有產的這個零組件進口的關稅這個兩項這個兩項有沒有去做討論我們都有討論"},{"start":176.661,"end":197.109,"text":"那有没有一个比较具体的我们现在是这样子就是我们的建议台湾的强项其实应该是在电子零组件上面所以我们其实都有建议这些在台湾有厂的这些所谓外籍的这个公司包括日本的包括韩国的那我们就建议他们能够是不是能够生产电动车"},{"start":198.169,"end":220.28,"text":"生产电动车因为电动车其实不是日本跟韩国这些公司的主力但是他的客户会要求电动车所以我们建议他是不是让在台湾的厂可以生产他全球的这个他们品牌的电动车那他们是有在考虑但是他们必须要跟他的母厂母公司来协商啦"},{"start":220.62,"end":233.911,"text":"我想這個我們從這個今年的大概是7月吧7月的時候討論出來一個方向但是關稅有可能在譬如說9月10月就會決定了"},{"start":235.166,"end":258.2,"text":"所以你要轉型坐電動車那是一個比較long term的一個轉型的目標那我剛才講一個就是說我們有很多是屬於零組件進口就是零組件是台灣當然坐車但是有一些關鍵零組件還是從國外進口那這方面的話關稅有要調降嗎就是不然你台灣的國產車幾乎沒有什麼競爭力"},{"start":261.55,"end":268.284,"text":"我們國產車的部分我想這個國內我們可能會鼓勵太舊換新"},{"start":270.473,"end":296.377,"text":"因為台灣的這個超過20年的車有200萬台所以我們鼓勵他因為基於這個節能減碳所以我們也希望他能夠換一些這個耗能比較輕的車由國內的這些廠商他們來生產所以大概200萬台車可以在這幾年裡面讓他去轉型不是啊 那你怎麼害羞煥心你有什麼政策上面的誘因啊"},{"start":297.455,"end":299.41,"text":"我們這個可能會調降這個貨物稅"},{"start":300.899,"end":328.726,"text":"那你要問財政部這個不是只有你說我們意思就是說我跟這個委員你們有跟財政部有討論過了嗎我們當然是業者的意願確定了我們才會做這個財政部的溝通那有跟財政部先溝通過這個貨物稅的問題嗎這個部分在我們所謂的這個討論的過程裡面都有提過了那財政部的財政部的這個財政部啦因為我自己在財委會財政部只要跟他講說要降稅他就跟你拼命"},{"start":330.657,"end":358.158,"text":"不过这个我想我们会基于国人的企业发展的这样的一个过程我想财政部应该会支持好那我再请问一下一个是这个法规的问题就是说现在我们的这个车子我们是采用这一个欧洲的这个检验的一个标准那如果说美国车子进来的话那怎么去做这一个标准的一个做一个调整他还是要通过我们的车车中心的检验"},{"start":358.975,"end":382.216,"text":"對啊 但是規格不一樣啊 它是一個是美國的 一個是我們是採用歐洲的啊 是不一樣的啊可以做correlation什麼意思可以做一些這個規格上面的一個比照現在有在處理這一塊嗎現在還沒有看到沒有 但是美國車是有可能有需求我們就會來一定會有這個需求啊 因為接下來就是美國車會進來啦"},{"start":383.476,"end":403.176,"text":"但是我跟委員報告就是我們所了解就是數量款式都會增加市場上面大概你講的是美國牌的品牌的大車但我們所了解的有很多美國車會進來的倒是這個所謂日系韓系在美國製造的車"},{"start":404.577,"end":420.56,"text":"那規格是一樣的嗎規格應該是一樣是一樣嗎是用台灣現在的這個這個歐洲的這個檢驗的規格嗎是嗎署長是嗎署長這個這個我想我們認為應該是啦沒有我一樣署長這個這個署長比較這個可能不是太嚴重的問題沒有我問一下署長那署長是嗎"},{"start":429.658,"end":458.638,"text":"因為美國車以前就都已經有進來的 並不是這次開放才進來的那以前數量不多嘛那現在數量如果一下增加的話如果說需要進行一些法規的調適的話可能我們還要再跟交通部這邊再討論一下所以也都還沒有進行就對了這個你們可能也要開始要做進行因為我覺得這個是大概是在兩三個月大概就會確定的事情那我最後再問一下部長就是說因為如果"},{"start":459.298,"end":482.492,"text":"你開放這個美國車關稅是零的話那其他的其他的歐洲的車他會不會比照要求要辦理我們跟美國的談判就台灣跟美國之間的關稅關係對啊那他就說那美國車就降了那基於這一個這一個比如說WTO的精神這個不能獨厚美國他其他車也要降其他這個歐洲進口車也要降會不會"},{"start":485.475,"end":511.474,"text":"理論上這個應該會有這樣的一個要求啦對啊但是我們的原則現在還是只跟美國談是啊 那我是說因為現在美國當然是跟美國談那我是說會不會有其他的這個歐洲的那邊的車子也會有要求也會有相同的這個一些要求啊據WTO他們可能會要求但是我們現在那我們有做什麼樣的因應嗎我們還要再評論啦對啊 這個都是近這兩個月會發生的事情耶"},{"start":511.914,"end":527.695,"text":"对但是因为我们现在在看就是看这个未来的变化因为这一系数变跟美国谈现在还没有谈定那其他的国家跟美国很多还是没有谈定所以没有谈定的过程里面这个变数太多了"},{"start":528.235,"end":555.109,"text":"所以我們現在先針對美國這個先造成的影響以後其他的部分是穩定的可是你們要去預想啊就是說我剛才講那幾個那應該都是要去預想就是說好像關稅就是有可能是零那如果關稅零的話那對台灣的這個國產車業者會造成怎麼樣的影響那我剛才講的就是說那有一些比較關鍵的一些一些領主線要進來那這個關稅是不是要做調整那或是說這一個你剛才講的你希望說鼓勵"},{"start":555.689,"end":583.646,"text":"台湾的这个车子能够车主能够太旧换新然后除了这个货物税上面给予一些减免之外还有什么要去做的然后不然的话对于台湾的这些这个国产吃的这些厂商来讲做零件的厂商来讲会受到很大影响接下来就是会变成失业的人口了这个不是就是一连串会延续发生的吗是 谢谢委员知道我们都会依据国际食物跟规定来办理"},{"start":585.347,"end":607.458,"text":"我的意思是說 雖然談判在進行當中但是因為現在已經快八月底了我覺得大概在兩個月大概會確定也不可能一直懸在那邊沒辦法確定但是汽車關稅的談判一定是其中一個沒有辦法把我們的關稅談好的其中一個蠻重要的因素在所以這個東西搞不好已經談好了也不一定"},{"start":609.12,"end":634.358,"text":"這個對業者來講當然是希望說能夠買到便宜的車但是卡在那邊不上不下你如果早點決定了其實業者跟這個買車的人他們都有一個盤算在那邊現在對業者來講其實最擔心就是你懸而不決一直卡在那邊其實對業者來講才是一個最大的一個心理或是經濟上面的一個負擔謝謝是 謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請賴世保委員做詢答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":656,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時32分）謝謝主席，請部長，也請產發署的邱署長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。請教一下部長還有署長，我要問有關汽車關稅的問題，部長知道現在我們臺北港大概有3萬輛進口車在那邊，就是因為關稅的問題，消費者會想等關稅確定之後是不是有便宜的進口車可以買，所以業者當然也賣不出去。我想請教一下，目前我們的進口車關稅是17.5%，那在談判的過程當中，汽車關稅是一個非常重要的談判議題，我想請教一下部長，目前有關汽車關稅這一塊到底有沒有一些比較具體的進程？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為關稅的談判現在還在進行中。"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：是暫定的。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以進口車的關稅目前還沒有確定。"],["李委員坤城：但是會朝向要調降來做為談判的一個方向嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：美國一定會要求我們往下降。"],["李委員坤城：對呀。"],["郭部長智輝：但是降到什麼樣的程度？現在就是我們談判團隊跟美國還在繼續協商。"],["李委員坤城：所以有沒有可能降到零？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我不清楚，因為我不是談判團隊。"],["李委員坤城：您也是業者出身的，你也知道就美國來講，他想而且有機會就會把關稅降到零，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：這是一個參考值。"],["李委員坤城：如果降到零的話，有沒有想到對我們產業的影響？因為降到零就是一個最差的情況了，假設降到零的話，當然對於臺灣這些要買車的人是一個好消息，但是對於臺灣這些車子零件的業者或整車的業者當然會受到影響，有沒有想到會受到什麼樣的影響？就國產汽車來講。"],["郭部長智輝：如果進口車的關稅是零或者是比較低的時候，可能會影響到臺灣的汽車零組件還有在臺灣製造的汽車，這個部分我們大概都有跟業者……還繼續在共同努力……"],["李委員坤城：有沒有一個比較具體的？我問兩個比較具體的就好了，針對國產車自製率的條件還有國內無產製零組件的進口關稅，這兩項有沒有做討論？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都有討論。"],["李委員坤城：那有沒有一個比較具體的？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是這樣子，依我們的建議，臺灣的強項其實應該是在電子零組件上面，所以我們其實都有建議這些在臺灣有廠的外籍公司，包括日本的、包括韓國的，我們建議他們是不是能夠生產電動車，因為電動車其實不是日本跟韓國這些公司的主力，但是他的客戶會要求電動車，所以我們建議他是不是讓在臺灣的廠可以生產他們全球品牌的電動車，他們是有在考慮，但是他們必須要跟母廠、母公司來協商，我們大概今年7月的時候討論出來一個方向。"],["李委員坤城：但是關稅有可能在9月、10月就會決定了，所以你要轉型做電動車，那是一個比較long term的轉型目標。我剛才講的是，我們有很多屬於零組件進口，臺灣當然做車，但是有一些關鍵零組件還是從國外進口，那這方面的關稅有要調降嗎？不然臺灣的國產車幾乎沒有什麼競爭力。"],["郭部長智輝：關於國產車的部分，國內我們可能會鼓勵汰舊換新，因為臺灣超過20年的車有200萬臺，基於節能減碳，所以我們鼓勵、也希望能夠換一些耗能比較輕的車，由國內的這些廠商來生產，所以大概200萬臺車可以在這幾年裡面去轉型。"],["李委員坤城：不是，那你怎麼汰舊換新，有什麼政策上面的誘因？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可能會調降貨物稅。"],["李委員坤城：那你要問財政部，這個不是只有你經濟部說……"],["郭部長智輝：我們的意思就是說，我跟委員報告……"],["李委員坤城：你們有跟財政部討論過了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，當然是業者的意願確定了，我們才會跟財政部做溝通。"],["李委員坤城：那有跟財政部先溝通過貨物稅的問題嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分在我們的討論過程裡面都有提過。"],["李委員坤城：那財政部的……"],["郭部長智輝：他們目前還在……"],["李委員坤城：因為我在自己在財委會，只要跟財政部講說要降稅，他就跟你拼命！"],["郭部長智輝：不過這部分基於國人的企業發展過程，我想財政部應該會支持。"],["李委員坤城：我再請問一下法規的問題，現在我們的車子是採用歐洲的檢驗標準，如果美國車子進來的話，怎麼去做標準的調整？"],["郭部長智輝：它還是要通過我們車測中心的檢驗。"],["李委員坤城：對，但是規格不一樣，一個是美國的，我們是採用歐洲的，是不一樣的。"],["郭部長智輝：可以做correlation。"],["李委員坤城：什麼意思？"],["郭部長智輝：可以做一些規格上面的比照。"],["李委員坤城：現在有在處理這一塊嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在還沒有看到這部分。"],["李委員坤城：沒有？但是美國車有可能……"],["郭部長智輝：有需求我們就會處理。"],["李委員坤城：一定會有這個需求，因為接下來美國車就會進來了。"],["郭部長智輝：但是我跟委員報告，依我們所了解市場上面……"],["李委員坤城：數量、款式都會增加。"],["郭部長智輝：你講的是美國品牌的大車，但我們所了解的，有很多美國車會進來的倒是所謂日系、韓系在美國製造的車。"],["李委員坤城：那規格是一樣的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：規格應該是一樣。"],["李委員坤城：是一樣嗎？是用臺灣現在的歐洲檢驗規格嗎？署長，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為應該是……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我要署長……"],["郭部長智輝：我們要確認，這個當然要確認。"],["李委員坤城：這個署長比較……"],["郭部長智輝：不過這個可能不是太嚴重的問題。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我問一下署長，署長，是嗎？"],["邱署長求慧：報告委員，因為美國車以前就都已經有進來了，並不是這次開放才進來，所以它本來就是有一定的程序。"],["李委員坤城：當然，以前的數量不多嘛？"],["邱署長求慧：對。"],["李委員坤城：現在數量如果一下增加的話呢？"],["邱署長求慧：如果需要進行一些法規調適的話，可能我們還要再跟交通部這邊討論一下。"],["李委員坤城：所以也都還沒有進行就對了？"],["邱署長求慧：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個你們可能也開始要進行，因為我覺得這個大概是再兩、三個月就會確定的事情。","我最後再問一下部長，如果開放美國車關稅是零的話，那其他的、歐洲的車會不會要求比照辦理？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟美國的談判是就臺灣跟美國之間的關稅關係。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！他就說美國車都降了，比如說基於WTO的精神，不能獨厚美國，其他車也要降、其他歐洲進口車也要降，會不會？"],["郭部長智輝：理論上應該會有這樣的要求……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們的原則現在還是只跟美國談。"],["李委員坤城：是啊，現在當然是跟美國談，我說會不會有其他歐洲的車子也會有相同的要求？"],["郭部長智輝：基於WTO他們可能會要求啦！但是我們現在……"],["李委員坤城：我們有什麼樣的因應嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還要再評論啦……"],["李委員坤城：這個都是近兩個月會發生的事情耶！"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是我們現在在看未來的變化，因為一夕數變，現在跟美國還沒有談定嘛！很多其他國家跟美國都還是沒有談定，沒有談定的過程裡面變數太多了，所以現在先針對美國造成的影響，其他的部分是穩定的……"],["李委員坤城：可是你們要去預想啊！我剛才講那幾個應該都要去預想，像關稅就有可能是零，如果關稅為零的話，對於臺灣國產車業者會造成什麼樣的影響，我剛才講的，有一些比較關鍵的零組件要進來，關稅是不是要調整？或者你剛才講的，希望鼓勵臺灣車主能夠汰舊換新，除了貨物稅上面給予一些減免之外，還有什麼要去做的？不然對於臺灣國產車的廠商、做零件的廠商來講，會受到很大的影響啊！接下來就會變成失業的人口啦！這不就是一連串會延續發生的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導，我們都會依據國際實務跟規定來辦理。"],["李委員坤城：好啦，我的意思是雖然談判在進行當中，但是因為現在已經快8月底了嘛！我覺得大概再兩個月會確定，也不可能一直懸在那邊沒辦法確定，但是汽車關稅的談判一定是我們沒有辦法把關稅談好其中一個蠻重要的因素啦！這個東西搞不好已經談好了也不一定，對業者來講，當然希望能夠買到便宜的車，但是卡在那邊不上不下，你如果早點決定，其實業者跟買車的人他們都在盤算，現在對業者來講，最擔心的是懸而不決、一直卡在那邊，這對業者來講才是最大的心理或是經濟上面的負擔啦！謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請賴士葆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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现在谢谢主席了请部长郭部长"},{"start":11.277,"end":39.933,"text":"也請一下這個產業運輸管理局一起來 裴統統部長我先請教一個問題其實大林埔遷村我一直在關心一直在關心這樣的一個進度那其實從2016年就在追包括每次總諮詢那2018年蘇院長核定經費之後那到現在又已經2025年了又過了六七年了那我想問一下部長明年有沒有編列經費來做這些工作"},{"start":42.821,"end":58.207,"text":"已經編列了 有編列了齁我得到的訊息是大概編了60億的經費 這個正確嗎是 是啦齁那裡面60億大概做在公共設施跟公有地的一個購地經費嗎包括跟台塘跟交通部港務局的經費嗎"},{"start":60.148,"end":88.691,"text":"部長是嗎這些採購經費是所以這也等於是一個很跟也讓當地的鄉親們了解確實經濟部是動起來了因為已經編第一筆經費60億然後即將來作為收購這個公共設施的建設跟公共土地的購地經費那我希望這個部分能夠加快來進行了好不好請部長經濟部的部分一定是會加快進行那還有其他哪個部分"},{"start":89.588,"end":104.798,"text":"地方政府好我請部長也加速跟地方政府的溝通了好不好市府的 因為這個是由經濟部主辦委託給市政府辦理但是畢竟主辦方是經濟部啦所以我還是要請部長跟副局長這邊要盯緊好不好這個"},{"start":107.319,"end":126.718,"text":"因為從2016年談到現在都已經這個快10年了那從蘇院長核定到現在也快7年了其實這個速度要加快要不然當地鄉親都一直覺得說到底簽不簽到底是簽真的簽假的好不好部長應該是簽真的吧我去 我跟你一樣我去公聽會嘛"},{"start":127.932,"end":148.469,"text":"我能夠了解所以我們大埔村的鄉民的村民的意願所以我們會努力來達成部長其實去也聽到很多心聲很多人擔憂的是到底簽不簽速度能不能快一點幾乎都是這樣的一個那要簽速度要快一點所以"},{"start":149.029,"end":177.42,"text":"經濟部的部分沒有問題了我們是全力以赴好不好那就請如果你談到市府部分就請經濟部也協助了好不好請市府那邊也加速了那再來我來問一下丹寧堡前村裡面有涉及到環評跟都計的程序嘛那都預計在明年的包括11月12月陸續來完成那這個其實也可以快啦我舉以前國企的例子國企環評可以拖了13年那真的是很沒有效率啦一件事"},{"start":178.4,"end":206.331,"text":"部長企業家出身不管環評過或不過最糟糕的就是拖了13年不敢做決定這是最糟的決定那我也希望千春的環評跟都計我希望因為有些涉及到環境部有些涉及到內政部也請經濟部因為竟然是主責機關啊能不能也協調溝通一下加快加快它的程序那你這個東西加快了後面的程序就整個會加快能不能盡量趕在明年的上半年來完成環評跟都計的程序"},{"start":206.591,"end":230.311,"text":"我們會朝這個目標來努力好不好我希望朝這個目標好不好因為還有整整一年的時間那其實環評如果多做一些溝通多做一些說明的話那競速協助是有可能加快的包括都計好不好那我們希望明年上半年把這些完成讓鄉親們早點感受到這個速度好不好感受到這個整個整體的速度好不好"},{"start":230.971,"end":253.287,"text":"好那另外還有包括甚至園區的核定設置我們都希望這些都配合能夠整個加快好那再來我們前幾天大概包括次長何次長跟林副市長也有對外說明了在明年的第二季要來啟動大概4到6月要來啟動協議架構程序部長這個確定了嗎"},{"start":257.293,"end":276.349,"text":"確定這個確定了所以明年的4月到6月要來啟動協議架構那我們希望這個協議架構的程序是能夠順利而且是快速的至少我也希望經濟部跟市府那邊把相關的整個配套措施把它做好讓"},{"start":277.47,"end":287.675,"text":"人民很快的能夠在4月份開始就能夠完成這個協議架構的程序一坪換一坪包括住商區的土地一坪換一坪包括"},{"start":288.485,"end":316.659,"text":"農業區的土地換到高坪特定區甚至於有限住法領現金的話那包括公保地的協議架構等等我們希望這些趕快來完成協議架構程序之後那後面還有甚至於完成之後還有很多要抽籤配利等等很多作業要做所以我們希望4到6月能夠完成這樣的一個協議架構程序部長這個應該可以在4到6月把它完成所以明年的上半年應該可以把"},{"start":317.34,"end":319.425,"text":"多數的協議架構把它做完成"},{"start":321.048,"end":345.653,"text":"明年上半年明年上半年就在六月把所有的這些協議架構完成那當然有些不願意協議架構那當然下一步再來想辦法但是至少把有意願願意協議架構願意一坪換一坪願意領取現金願意換土地的我們盡速把它完成那讓他們可以正式的感受到這個遷村的程序啟動那協議架構完了之後那2027年"},{"start":347.633,"end":371.688,"text":"照我們的規劃應該是2027年正式來啟動正式的遷村是吧 部長是的 在2027年正式啟動所以等於是2026年的上半年完成了協議架構那在下半年會把其他土地的問題做一個初步的解決之後2027年就正式來啟動遷村那2029年來完成遷村這是經濟部目前的目標的方向嗎 是吧"},{"start":373.122,"end":392.999,"text":"目前暫定是這樣暫定這樣我希望大家來努力啦對因為這個真的拖很久了啦真的拖很久了我認為也不宜再拖了啦那協議加購完正式來啟動千春那也正式來這個完成千春我們希望2029年是一個大家"},{"start":393.899,"end":422.806,"text":"黃衣襪身處的觀念啦 就是說大家都是開開心 那我也希望在這個過程中也跟部長反應 就是說有任何只要當地市區的居民的一些權益 我也希望多多給予照顧沒有人會希望離開自己的長期居住的家園啦 但是因為那邊的空屋 八百隻煙囪的包圍 因為當年政府沒有作為那也為了國家國土的配置更有利 我也希望這件事情經濟部門能夠善待當地的居民 就是說"},{"start":423.326,"end":442.664,"text":"能夠給的盡量給啦就當然法律上可以給的空間因為我還是要再次強調沒有人願意簽的啦如果不是因為環境不好如果不是因為各方面的因素沒有人願意簽那在簽的過程中我也相信未來這件事情是可以創造出一個多贏的空間對國家是好對人民是好對整個產業也是好的"},{"start":442.904,"end":462.503,"text":"那我希望我們朝著多營的空間來進行我也相信未來政府跟整個會在這邊獲得了更大的一個整體上更大的一個效益所以在這樣狀況下的時候就盡量能夠善待市區的人民當然如果說是其他的這個寄附在這邊或其他外來的這當然就"},{"start":463.804,"end":487.338,"text":"還好我覺得應該是可以的但是如果真正市區在那邊從小在那邊長大或者他們兩代三代都在這個地方的話那不要讓他們將來有一天離開了大林埔的時候流離失所甚至於他們條件是很苛刻的甚至於對他們來說將來是對政府有怨言的那我覺得這個是將來是會造成反對更多的後遺症我也希望部長在這個處理過程中給予更寬的條件"},{"start":489.919,"end":519.462,"text":"善待市居的居民真正住在这边的居民我认为其实符合公平争议也是让整件事情能够圆满一个关键因素是的谢谢委员指导我想我们会在法的框架之内我们全力以赴谢谢部长我想企业家出身的应该更能够感同身受我也相信能够创造多赢的空间多赢是很重要的让人民赢让国家赢让整个产业都赢大家都赢这件事情一定是做得到也需要花一点心力"},{"start":519.882,"end":543.31,"text":"那最后一点时间我再请教一下这一次的风灾之后山区有很多土石的坍塌等等那个很多的包括青枢的安全的这一块我也希望部长更加的重视了好不好特别是在更山区里面的它很多的土石坍塌你看这个桥这个是在纳马下的一个桥那几乎是每次豪大雨几乎是"},{"start":544.17,"end":565.941,"text":"土石落到了幾乎是跟橋面但交通部也要蓋新的橋了但是表示這邊的嚴重性我也希望經濟部跟交通部各部會通力來合作把山上的很多的土石盡量能夠疏進下來能夠讓那個地方的淤積不要這麼嚴重因為每次都這麼嚴重的時候其實每次只要好大的颱風來就會造成重大影響 好吧這請部長再加速"},{"start":566.821,"end":581.718,"text":"馬上來 好不好加速重視啦 好不好加速重視那最後一個是原鄉這一次的部分因為很多的自來水好大雨中它自來水受到很多的影響那當然也有謝謝水利署啦也有給予支持了那我也希望除了地方的經費"},{"start":582.859,"end":603.118,"text":"中央有給了地方不足的部分中央能夠持續來支持啦中央持續來支持就對於三個原鄉的部分那我知道水利署其實是有這樣的法令可以來提供的啦那個錢都並不會太多但是對原鄉的原住民使用自來水就很重要我也希望部長來支持好不好"},{"start":603.775,"end":619.347,"text":"是我們能夠做得到的我們都會做 我知道這個這個部分框架之內我們一定會建立我有問過水利署基本上是有條件只是有部長的承諾是大家會更加的放心我們大家來努力 好那另外中長期的部分現在因為工程會有已經"},{"start":620.127,"end":640.704,"text":"復建的工程經費 甚至我們這次也通過了特別條例那特別條例裡面也會匡列很多經費進來我也希望未來的時候包括部長 包括署裡面也把這些經費匡進來好不好 給原鄉的三個原鄉區裡面能夠至少有基本的自來水使用啦這樣的匡進來的話才能夠加速它的一個施作 好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":646.772,"end":648.359,"text":"谢谢我们现在请"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時21分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也請一下產業園區管理局一起陪同。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我先請教一個問題，有關大林蒲遷村，我一直在關心這個進度，其實我從2016年就在追，包括每次的總質詢，2018年蘇院長核定經費之後，到現在已經2025年，又過了六、七年了，我想問一下部長，明年有沒有編列經費來做這些工作？"],["郭部長智輝：已經編列了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有編列了，我得到的訊息是大概編了60億的經費，這個正確嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：60億大概用在公共設施跟公有地的購地經費，包括台糖及交通部港務局的經費嘛，部長，是嘛，這些採購經費？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是。所以這也讓當地的鄉親們了解確實經濟部動起來了，因為已經編第一筆經費60億，作為即將收購公共設施建設及公用土地的購地經費，我希望這個部分部長能夠加快來進行，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的部分一定是會加快進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：還有其他哪個部分？"],["郭部長智輝：地方政府。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我請部長也加速跟地方政府的溝通，好不好？市府的速度……因為這是由經濟部主辦，委託給市政府辦理，但畢竟主辦方是經濟部，所以我還是要請部長跟副局長這邊要盯緊，因為從2016年談到現在都已經快十年了，從蘇院長核定到現在也快七年了，這個速度要加快，要不然當地鄉親都一直覺得到底遷不遷、到底是遷真的還是遷假的，部長，應該是遷真的吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我跟你一樣，我有去公聽會，我能夠了解大林蒲村民的意願啦，所以我們會努力來達成。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長其實去也聽到很多心聲，很多人擔憂的是到底遷不遷、速度能不能快一點，幾乎都是這樣的擔憂，要遷村速度要快一點，所以……"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的部分沒有問題啦，我們是全力以赴。"],["賴委員瑞隆：既然你談到市府部分，就請經濟部也協助，請市府那邊也加速啦，好不好？","再來，我來問一下，大林蒲遷村案有涉及到環評跟都計的程序，都預計在明年的11月、12月陸續完成，這個其實也可以快，我舉以前國7的例子，國7環評可以拖13年，那真的是很沒有效率，部長是企業家出身，不管環評過或不過，最糟糕的就是拖了13年不敢做決定，這是最糟的決定，我也希望遷村的環評跟都計，因為有些涉及到環境部、有些涉及到內政部，經濟部既然是主責機關，能不能也協調溝通一下加快程序，這個部分加快了，後面的程序就會整個加快，能不能儘量趕在明年上半年來完成環評跟都計的程序？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會朝這個目標來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望朝這個目標啦，好不好？因為還有整整一年的時間，其實環評如果多做一些溝通、多做一些說明，並儘速協助，是有可能加快的，包括都計，我們希望明年上半年把這些完成，讓鄉親們早點感受到整體的速度，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外還有包括園區的核定設置，我們都希望這些都配合整個加快。","再來，前幾天包括何次長跟林副市長也有對外說明了，在明年的第二季，大概是4到6月要來啟動協議價購程序，部長，這個確定了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：確定。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，這個確定了，所以明年的4月到6月要來啟動協議價購，我們希望這個協議價購的程序是能夠順利而且是快速的，我也希望經濟部跟市府那邊把相關的整個配套措施做好，讓人民很快地在4月份開始就能夠完成這個協議價購的程序，包括住商區的土地一坪換一坪，包括農業區的土地換到高坪特定區，甚至於有些如果要領現金的，包括公保地協議價購等等，我們希望這些趕快來完成協議價購程序之後，後面還有要抽籤、配地等等，很多作業要做，所以我們希望4到6月能夠完成這樣一個協議價購程序，部長，這個應該可以在4到6月把它完成，所以明年的上半年應該可以把多數的協議價購完成嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：明年上半年，就在6月把所有這些協議價購完成，當然有些不願意協議價購的，下一步再來想辦法，但是至少把有意願願意協議價購、願意一坪換一坪、願意領取現金、願意換土地的，我們儘速把它完成，讓他們可以正式感受到遷村的程序啟動。協議價購完了之後，照我們的規劃，應該是2027年來啟動正式的遷村，是吧？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在2027年正式啟動遷村，所以等於是2026年的上半年完成協議價購，在下半年會把其他土地的問題做一個初步的解決之後，2027年就正式來啟動遷村，2029年完成遷村，這是經濟部目前的目標方向，是吧？"],["郭部長智輝：目前暫定是這樣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：暫定這樣，我希望……"],["郭部長智輝：大家來努力啦！可以儘快的部分我們就儘快處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，因為真的拖很久了啦，真的拖很久，我認為也不宜再拖了啦。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：協議價購完正式來啟動遷村，也正式完成遷村，我們希望2029年能夠讓大家都歡喜換新家，讓大家都能夠開開心心。在這個過程中，我也跟部長反映，只要跟當地世居居民有關的任何權益問題，我也希望多多給予照顧，沒有人會希望離開自己長期居住的家園，但是那邊的空污、800隻煙囪的包圍，因為當年政府沒有作為，也為了國家國土的配置更有力，我也希望對於這件事情，經濟部能夠善待當地的居民，就是說能夠給的儘量給，法令上可以給的空間就儘量給。我還是要再次強調，沒有人願意遷啦，如果不是因為環境不好，如果不是因為各方面的因素，沒有人願意遷，而在遷的過程中，我也相信未來這件事情是可以創造出一個多贏的空間，對國家是好，對人民是好，對整個產業也是好的，我希望我們朝著多贏的空間來進行，我也相信未來政府會在這邊獲得整體上更大的效益，所以在這樣的狀況下儘量善待世居的人民，當然如果說是其他寄戶在這邊的或其他外來的，這當然就還好，這部分我覺得應該可以，但是如果是真正世居、從小在這邊長大，或者他們兩代、三代都在這個地方的話，不要讓他們將來有一天離開了大林蒲的時候流離失所，甚至讓他們的條件變得苛刻，或甚至讓他們將來對政府有怨言，我覺得反而將來是會造成更多的後遺症，我也希望部長在這個處理過程中給予更寬的條件，善待世居的居民、真正住在這邊的居民，我認為這其實是符合公平正義，也是讓整件事情能夠圓滿的一個關鍵因素，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，謝謝委員指導，我想我們會在法的框架之內全力以赴。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長，我想企業家出身的你應該更能夠感同身受，我也相信能夠創造多贏的空間，多贏是很重要的，讓人民贏、讓國家贏、讓整個產業都贏，大家都贏這件事情一定是做得到，也需要花一點心力。","最後一點時間，我再請教一下，這一次的風災之後，山區有很多的土石坍塌等等，所以包括清疏、安全的這一塊，我也希望部長更加重視，好不好？特別是在更山區裡面有很多的土石坍塌，你看這個橋，這是在那瑪夏的一個橋，每次豪大雨土石幾乎都落到跟橋面一樣高，當然交通部已經要蓋新的橋了，但也表示這邊的嚴重性。我也希望經濟部跟交通部等各部會通力合作，能夠儘量把山上很多的土石疏濬下來，讓那個地方的淤積不要這麼嚴重，當每次都這麼嚴重的時候，其實每次只要豪大雨或颱風來就會造成重大影響，好不好？這請部長再加速。"],["郭部長智輝：我們馬上來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：加速重視，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一個，關於這一次原鄉的部分，豪大雨之後自來水受到很多的影響，當然謝謝水利署也有給予支持了，我希望除了中央有給地方經費之外，地方不足的部分中央能夠持續來支持，就是對於3個原鄉的部分。我知道水利署其實有這樣的法令可以來提供，那個錢並不會太多，但是對於原鄉的原住民使用自來水就很重要，我也希望部長來支持，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們能夠做得到的我們都會做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我知道，這個部分水利署……"],["郭部長智輝：在法的框架之內我們一定會全力以赴。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我有問過水利署，基本上是有條件，只是有部長的承諾，大家會更加放心。"],["郭部長智輝：我們來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，中長期的部分現在因為工程會已經有復建的工程經費，甚至我們這次也通過了特別條例，特別條例裡面也會匡列很多經費進來，我也希望未來也把這些經費匡進來，包括部長、包括署裡面，好不好？讓3個原鄉區至少有基本的自來水使用，這樣匡進來的話才能夠加速施作，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長！"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請張嘉郡委員詢答，張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","現在請陳超明委員詢答，陳超明委員、陳超明委員不在。","現在請李坤城委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我想要請郭部長請郭部長大衛好部長好"},{"start":27.585,"end":54.034,"text":"不管去或留都要對在你身為部長任內所有的做一個你自己的評比你認為你有協助經濟部協助我們中小企業不只在這次風災有什麼樣子的轉變你是不是跟國人報告一下"},{"start":55.012,"end":70.897,"text":"報告委員我想我的去留這個不是我自己可以決定的那我只要在位的一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我是一天當作兩天在使用兩天當作一天在使用"},{"start":73.594,"end":98.059,"text":"這個我每天要主持三四場會議那也要到市場去到這個工協會去聽聽業者的這個聲音現在我最大的工作兩項工作第一項就是災區救災那因為災區救災這個一刻都不能緩不能緩所以對我們來講這個"},{"start":101.331,"end":110.723,"text":"如果早一天快一點讓這個災區的受災戶恢復到這個平日的這個生活這個是我們最重要的工作經濟部"},{"start":112.409,"end":133.504,"text":"除了這個幫助這個受災戶之外整建他的這個屋舍之外我們對那個實際從事商業活動的或者實際從事工業製造活動的我們都希望他能夠快速恢復運作所以在他們有任何因為每一家的需求不會一樣"},{"start":134.673,"end":150.404,"text":"每一家的需求不會一樣所以我們就是總的來講我們有各種的這個協助措施也有各種的補助措施這個是我現在救災的工作所以我們救災工作除了這個中氣署以外"},{"start":151.104,"end":178.497,"text":"我們包括能源署包括水利署都全都投入特別是水利署因為水利署我們為了要救災我們把水利署目前在這個嘉義台南的工班全部把它移到這個救災的這個工作上面當然也包括趙偉寧的這個故鄉彰化也是一樣只要我們一直優先去處理啦因為"},{"start":179.724,"end":189.674,"text":"他們如果不停下來來協助做救災現在市場上找不到有人可以來處理這麼大量的救災工作"},{"start":190.532,"end":218.523,"text":"所以我想这一次的这个我们配合前进办公室在统筹这整个的这个灾区的这个工作的分配我想我们也要这个感谢水利署过去他们的这些工班愿意来帮忙甚至于我跟委员报告我们所接受的责任区里面属于中低收入户的"},{"start":219.704,"end":245.444,"text":"都是由我們的經濟部所屬的機構來承接他們是不用付錢我們現在經濟部也在考慮做一件工作我認為中低收入戶的小孩子也應該要有這個教育成長的機會雖然我們國家國民教育一直到國中但是我認為我要讓他這個"},{"start":248.049,"end":263.798,"text":"不会受到这个家庭的影响也不会受到这个灾情的影响怎么样协助他那你怎么协助他我们现在就是给他们找厂商来然后就是给他们食物捐助就是给他们磕座椅"},{"start":264.927,"end":286.41,"text":"給他們這個書包來補助他們對中小對中低收入戶中低收入戶是我們政府的認證但是除了中低收入戶以外在很多不符合中低收入戶標準的我希望經濟部也能夠一併的照顧他們可以嗎"},{"start":287.031,"end":307.906,"text":"当然那个是我们除了政府应该做的事情以外我是说经济部在处理过去的这个过程里面我们发现还是有一群比较需要我们紧急给他这个辅助的救助的这一些部分那因为在等到政府有一定的程序"},{"start":308.626,"end":326.834,"text":"那他可能还不积极所以我们现在就是食物捐助很多包括我们这次经济部大概有900多件的电器家电商品也有这个请具我们大概第一个时间几千套的请具都是先进去了这个就是我们经济部"},{"start":327.794,"end":350.515,"text":"我们的中小企业署我们产发署的署长他们发挥这个人力集力的这个爱心我们都是请我们的厂商来协办大家也非常乐意这个在这个所谓的CSR企业的这个CS上面我们就跟他讲我们也鼓励他要人力集力这个点我想我们经济部正努力在做这些事情"},{"start":351.158,"end":371.935,"text":"好 就关税的问题受影响的中小企业你说要带他们 协助他们去美国去设 有吗报告委员 我们是说他有意愿去美国的我们协助他快速出海落地"},{"start":373.476,"end":389.097,"text":"因為過去經濟部沒有做這些事情的話他們都必須要單打獨鬥但是我認為單打獨鬥太可憐了因為到美國你隨便蓋一個廠都要四年到五年但是如果由政府把他們整合"},{"start":390.04,"end":414.102,"text":"所以只是協助有意願去的嘛是不是對並不是要求他們要去後美投資有沒有沒有要求我們只是說明當你們有意願到美國去投資或到海外去投資的廠商那麼政府經濟部站在這個協助的這個角色我們會幫他快速的出海落地"},{"start":415.049,"end":432.082,"text":"好那現在因為這一次的關稅的問題那造成了我們不管是中部也好其實全台很多出口的產業都有無薪假的問題那現在"},{"start":435.236,"end":455.688,"text":"越來越高了那我們怎麼樣解決兩個部分大部分的廠商他們會休無薪假是因為他們不敢報價為什麼不敢報價我們所了解的程度就是匯率他沒有辦法掌握所以第一個我們先穩匯先讓匯率就是遠匯遠期匯率跟這個"},{"start":460.431,"end":487.022,"text":"这个我们在协助他我们也跟银行都谈了他我们有一个商品叫做这个选择权加上远期汇率我想这部分委员是专家我们把它做成一个商品请这银行让小企业微型企业他可以快速买到这个商品就可以稳定他的报价这样会增加他拿单子的机会第二个"},{"start":487.702,"end":507.549,"text":"第二个如果他真正必须要休假的时候那么当然劳动部会给他们一些支持但是经济部我们建议这一些厂商可以来经济部的试炼线我们在AI的试炼线我们希望他可以学习下一个阶段的技术"},{"start":508.289,"end":520.646,"text":"那么可以操作AI的应用在这个设备上面这样会增加它非常高的function我想这个是目前经济部可以努力的这个方向"},{"start":524.073,"end":549.718,"text":"就是除了提供金融支持以外我們就是協助匯率避險然後提升它的競爭能力好 剛才其實業務委員問到現在美國的商業部長有在講要投資他們不只要投資英特爾也要投資台積電我問你那投資台積電要不要經過我們台灣的投審會"},{"start":552.403,"end":554.058,"text":"要看他投資多少了"},{"start":554.707,"end":582.992,"text":"要不要經過如果當初也有傳出說我們聯電要投資英特爾嘛對不對那投資聯電去投資英特爾要不要經過投審會就是你經濟部管的啊你不能夠在以你民間企業來身為經濟部長你不能夠在以說他們不是你的公司所有公司涉及台灣的晶片的相關的"},{"start":583.672,"end":609.167,"text":"這樣子的關鍵的時候都是經濟部要主管的不管是台積電美國要不要投資台積電他們如果來申請我們就會了解是不是他們要申請啦他們要申請對於美國要投資台積電或者是聯電要去投資英特爾等對於台灣有重要關鍵的"},{"start":611.127,"end":620.972,"text":"我們都應該要一併的做審理嘛對不對要保護台灣的關鍵技術嘛是不是不然未來怎麼樣讓台灣的經濟能夠繼續的穩定成長嘛是不是"},{"start":629.457,"end":645.668,"text":"那這也就是我們現在對台灣的電力以及相關的我們中小企業重建的這樣子的工作我們希望經濟部都能夠一併共同的審視好不好好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時10分）好，謝謝主席，我想要請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：召委好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長好。不管去或留，你自己都要對你在部長任內所有的表現做一個評比，你認為你有協助經濟部、有協助我們中小企業嗎？不只是在這次風災，你有什麼樣的轉變，你是不是跟國人報告一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我的去留不是我自己可以決定的，我只要在位一天，我就是全力以赴，我之前也講過，我是把一天當作兩天在用，我每天要主持三、四場會議，也要到市場、公協會去聽聽業者的聲音。現在我最大的工作有兩項，第一項就是災區救災，因為災區救災是刻不容緩，所以對我們來講，如何早一天、快一點讓災區的受災戶恢復到平日的生活，這個是我們最重要的工作，經濟部除了幫助受災戶整建他的屋舍之外，對於實際從事商業活動或實際從事工業製造活動的人，我們都希望他能夠快速恢復運作，因為每一家的需求不會一樣，所以總的來講，我們有各種協助措施，也有各種補助措施，這個是我現在要做的救災工作，我們的救災工作除了中企署以外，包括能源署、包括水利署都全力投入，特別是水利署，我們為了要救災，我們把水利署目前在嘉義、臺南的工班全部移到救災的工作上面，當然也包括召委的故鄉──彰化，我們一直優先去處理，因為他們如果不來協助救災，現在市場上找不到有人可以來處理這麼大量的救災工作，所以我想這一次我們配合前進辦公室所統籌整個災區工作的分配，我想我們也要感謝水利署的工班願意來幫忙。我跟委員報告，在我們所接受的責任區裡面屬於中低收入戶的，都是由我們經濟部所屬的機構來承接，他們不用付錢，現在我們經濟部也在考慮做一件工作，我認為中低收入戶的小孩子也應該要有接受教育、成長的機會，雖然我們國家的國民教育是一直到國中，但是我認為要讓他們不會受到家庭的影響，也不會受到災情的影響。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要怎麼樣協助他？你是怎麼協助他？"],["郭部長智輝：現在就是找廠商捐助食物給他們，還有給他們課桌椅、給他們書包並補助他們，對中低收入戶……"],["謝委員衣鳯：中低收入戶是要經我們政府認證，但是除了中低收入戶以外，有很多人不符合中低收入戶的標準，我希望經濟部也能夠一併的照顧他們，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：當然，除了政府應該做的事情以外，經濟部在過去處理的過程裡面發現還是有一群比較需要我們緊急扶助、救助的人，因為如果要等政府，政府有一定的程序，可能會緩不濟急。現在我們就是食物捐助很多，這一次經濟部大概有九百多件電器、家電商品，也有寢具，我們在第一時間先送幾千套的寢具過去，就是我們經濟部中小企業署、產發署的署長發揮人溺己溺的愛心請廠商來協辦，大家也非常樂意，就是基於所謂的CSR即企業社會責任，我們就跟他們講，也鼓勵他們要人溺己溺，我們經濟部正在努力做這些事情。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。就關稅的問題，對於受影響的中小企業，你說要協助他們去美國設廠，有嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們是說如果他有意願去美國，我們就協助他快速出海落地，因為在過去經濟部沒有做這些事情，他們都必須要單打獨鬥，但是我認為單打獨鬥太可憐了，因為到美國隨便蓋一個廠都要4年到5年，但是如果由政府把他們整合……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以只是協助有意願去的廠商嘛！是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有要求他們赴美投資？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有要求，我們只是說明，對於有意願到美國去投資或到海外去投資的廠商，經濟部會扮演協助的角色，我們會幫他快速的出海落地。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，這一次因為關稅造成很大的影響，不管是中部或其他地方，其實全臺很多出口的產業都有無薪假的問題，現在越來越多了，我們怎麼樣解決？"],["郭部長智輝：這個問題有兩個部分，大部分的廠商會休無薪假是因為他們不敢報價，那為什麼不敢報價？據我們所了解，就是因為他沒有辦法掌握匯率，所以第一個我們先穩匯，先讓遠期匯率跟……我們在協助他，我們也都跟銀行談了，我們有一個商品叫做選擇權，加上遠期匯率，我想對這個部分委員是專家，我們把它做成一個商品，請銀行讓小企業、微型企業可以快速買到這個商品，這樣就可以穩定他的報價，這樣會增加他拿單子的機會。第二個，如果真的必須要休假的時候，當然勞動部會給他們一些支持，但是我們經濟部建議這些廠商可以來經濟部的試煉線，就是我們在AI的試煉線，我們希望他可以學習下一個階段的技術，可以把AI應用在設備上面，這樣就會增加非常多的function，我想這個是目前經濟部可以努力的方向，就是除了提供金融支持以外，我們去協助匯率避險，然後提升他的競爭能力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，剛才其實也有委員問到，現在美國的商業部長有在講要投資，他們不只要投資英特爾，也要投資台積電，我問你，投資台積電要不要經過我們臺灣的投審會？你有沒有看？"],["郭部長智輝：要看他投資多少。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要不要經過？當初也有傳出說我們的聯電要投資英特爾，對不對？那聯電去投資英特爾要不要經過投審會？這是你經濟部管的，你是從民間企業來擔任經濟部長，你不能夠再說他們不是你的公司，所有臺灣涉及晶片生產相關關鍵技術的公司都是經濟部所主管的，包括台積電，美國是不是要投資台積電？"],["郭部長智輝：他們如果來申請，我們就會了解。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：他們要申請。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於美國要投資台積電或者是聯電要去投資英特爾等，對於臺灣有重要關鍵影響的，我們都應該要一併做審理嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是，投審會會來關注這個議題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要保護臺灣的關鍵技術嘛，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不然未來怎麼樣讓臺灣的經濟能夠繼續穩定成長，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於臺灣的電力以及我們中小企業相關的重建工作，我們希望經濟部都能夠一併共同審視，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：現在請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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个很基本的原因但是造成这样的一个灾害那个原因真的是要去加强"},{"start":460.851,"end":484.168,"text":"那這樣的一個經費是不多當然這個經濟部要做的事情也還真多光這個中小企業你們也提出了這些這個災禍復原的這些措施當然都不足當然有的尤其企業發生這些狀況間接受害的其實還包含勞工"},{"start":486.606,"end":512.398,"text":"這些企業的勞工當然這個災後復健條例裡面沒有包含這個部分了怎麼樣去這個都是需要去解決的問題好這個光電板能源署包括當然這個光電板因為這個為了加速所以也沒有做過期也都不用做環評"},{"start":514.488,"end":538.468,"text":"所以这个部分都是能源署在去继续在进行这个光电的你看这个一个台风造成这么大的一个光电板的一个损害然后造成了这些这些2800公吨15万片"},{"start":540.173,"end":567.011,"text":"這個等於相當於五年五年台灣的廢棄的數量所以這個跟能源政策都有關係都有關係所以這個部分這個能源政策台電經濟部怎麼樣去因為這樣的造成台灣雖然已經走到這個地步該試檢討"},{"start":570.592,"end":592.403,"text":"該是好好檢討的時刻了所以這個部分是一個因為時間的關係這個我也不是這個專業了但是從這個數字數量來看的話我過去我也跟部長提了好幾次我是沒有要跟你要數字了一定要去評估經濟部"},{"start":597.524,"end":613.528,"text":"對於風電 光電 還是這個反正是綠電的部分投入了多少經費這個都是人民的納稅錢產生電了之後台電用比較高的這個經費去買這個電 綠電"},{"start":620.183,"end":631.647,"text":"跟核能的電又有差距這個就是要整體的該是好好的評估而且透過相關的目前的實際的狀況然後長遠的才能夠長遠"},{"start":636.941,"end":653.281,"text":"才能够长远的为台湾的经济的发展这个是一个我提过很多次了但是真的是要该是好好评估的一个时候好不好是谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時59分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：辛苦了。7月6號的中度颱風，只是中度而已，臺灣歷經颱風是每年都有，有中度也有強度很強的，還有比這個更強的，從7月6號到現在，真的是夠久了。我們看到經濟部的報告裡面提到了這個中度颱風，造成電線桿倒塌3萬5,000支以上，不曉得在過去的紀錄裡面，這次電線桿倒塌的數量是不是最多的一次？台電有了解嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是最多的一次。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，莫拉克颱風也是在中南部，就是所謂的八八風災，它也是中度颱風，不曉得你們有沒有去了解，到底是什麼原因，怎麼會倒塌這麼嚴重？台電有沒有去了解？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這次的颱風會這麼嚴重，主要就是這個颱風走向不一樣，過去的颱風大概都是由東往西，這一次的丹娜絲颱風是由南到北，在一進入到嘉南平原以後，風就轉進去了，因為它太空曠了，所以轉進去以後，我們第一面的電線桿就全倒了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，因為我過去在臺灣省政府服務20年，在中央服務10年，然後我又是花蓮人，沒有錯，很多颱風都是從花蓮、臺東這樣上來，我剛舉的莫拉克颱風，它就不是從花蓮、臺東過去，而是從西部，不管怎麼樣都會先經過屏東，都是從南往北，基本上是這樣，所以都是要去評估的。","當然除了這個之外，回去也請部長轉達給水利署，水利署負責的部分，災情也是很嚴重，所以這次的特別條例裡面也有針對水利設施等等來做處理，這裡面我一直在判斷，我只能用「判斷」，當然也可以讓水利署去了解，就是民間的房子一直在進水，那就是排水的問題，對不對？排水當然有很多種狀況，然後又有光電的問題，因為大家不種田了，排水設施就放在那邊，然後是不是那些光電剩下的器材在新設的時候就阻塞了水溝或排水設施？這都有可能，所以要請水利署、水利單位，也可以會同農田水利會，他們在清理的時候，是不是有清理到這些？因為這個跟能源署也有關係，到時候能源署在核定相關光電的時候，就要特別去要求，我們要整體的去做處理，而不是自己做自己的。不然的話，怎麼會因為颱風，然後加上後面的豪雨，其實也不是像豪雨那樣，就是下雨了，我們就稱豪雨好了，就讓這些房子室內一直積水，那就是排水設施的問題，這有水利署的，也有農業部農田水利署的灌排，有兩種，所以這個部分都是需要共同透過清理的時候去做了解，到底是什麼原因造成這些狀況，這個是我的建議。","我剛剛提到莫拉克颱風是8月8號發生的，行政院很快的在12天就提出了莫拉克颱風災後重建特別條例，12天就送到立法院，當然這不是你主責的，但是相關的部會應該要協調主責的機關來提出，因為這次速度真的是太慢了，7月6號的丹娜絲颱風加上接下來的豪雨，在國民黨團一直要求、一直要求下才完成這個特別條例。","所以在這樣一個情形之下，整個是600億，當然行政院本來沒有編那麼多，有五百多億，後來立法院協商之後，通過的是600億，經濟部編列了187.41億，當然預算案屆時還要審，在這樣的情形之下，所以我剛才講到，像上次審預算的時候，我們都會想要了解這些，所以剛剛提的這些，包括橫向的聯繫，包括怎麼澈底去了解原因，除了颱風是一個很基本的原因外，但是造成這樣一個災害，我想原因的部分真的要去加強。","雖然這樣的經費是不多，當然經濟部要做的事情也還真多，光是中小企業，你們也提出了災後復原的這些措施，當然都不足，尤其企業發生這些狀況了，間接受害的其實還包含這些企業的勞工，而災後復建條例裡面並沒有包含這個部分，所以該怎麼樣去處理，都是需要去解決的問題。","再來是光電板，這與能源署有關，當初為了要加速，過去也都不用做環評，所以這個部分都是能源署……繼續進行光電的相關工作，你看一個颱風造成這麼大的光電板的損害，有2,800公噸、15萬片，相當於臺灣5年的廢棄數量，這個跟能源政策都有關係，所以能源政策的部分，台電、經濟部怎麼樣去研擬，臺灣現在已經走到這個地步，該是好好檢討的時刻。","因為時間的關係，我也不是這方面的專業，但是從這個數字、數量來看的話，過去我也跟部長提了好幾次，我是沒有跟你要數字，但你們一定要去評估，經濟部對於風電、光電還有其他，綠電的部分，你們投入了多少經費，這個都是人民的納稅錢；產生電了之後，台電用比較高的經費去買這些綠電，這跟核能的電價又有差距，這個該是要好好來做整體評估，包括透過目前實際的狀況，如此才能夠讓臺灣的經濟發展長遠，這個我提過很多次了，但真的，該是好好評估的一個時刻了，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席（鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員代）：現在請召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","賴瑞隆","李坤城","賴士葆","蔡易餘","邱志偉","張嘉郡","何欣純","陳超明"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長就「協助中小企業災後復原辦理情況」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147302_00001"}}},{"id":"163577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3feaef107a98f0c9bab0581aa0e7ca54495992f4538fe6f26d8aada7af21e617e70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:54:56 - 11:05:33","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2025-08-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：（上午）\n邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午1時30分）\n繼續審查\n一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-08-20","start_time":"2025-08-20T10:54:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-20T11:05:33+08:00","duration":637,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.856593750000002,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.657843750000001,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.37784375,"end":22.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.05284375,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.66284375,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.38471875,"end":99.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.04909375000001,"end":106.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.12409375,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.84534375000001,"end":109.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.54971875000001,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.78596875000001,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.76409375,"end":164.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.16346875000002,"end":151.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.50409375,"end":160.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.54534375,"end":165.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.89534375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.62846875000002,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.79096875000002,"end":197.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.14346875,"end":198.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.26159375,"end":198.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.27846875,"end":198.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.31221875,"end":199.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.58534375000002,"end":243.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.15846875000003,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.55409375000002,"end":217.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.66346875000002,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.02034375000002,"end":230.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":233.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.42034375000003,"end":236.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.79034375,"end":244.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.06034375000002,"end":295.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.19409375,"end":253.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.86409375,"end":258.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.71471875000003,"end":269.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.30784375,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.86034375,"end":282.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.56471875,"end":284.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.17034375000003,"end":374.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.66784375000003,"end":299.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.74346875000003,"end":301.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.95346875,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.98721875,"end":307.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.24034375,"end":307.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.11346875000004,"end":337.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.74159375000005,"end":340.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.53596875,"end":360.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.09284375000004,"end":360.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.04096875000005,"end":368.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.90909375,"end":389.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.84846875000005,"end":385.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.78909375,"end":387.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.01659375,"end":394.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.19284375,"end":421.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.33221875000004,"end":422.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.90159375,"end":437.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.71971875,"end":426.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.37284375,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.59971875,"end":487.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.45596875,"end":439.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.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我們先請紅部長請部長"},{"start":21.56,"end":42.594,"text":"黃委員好 部長好 部長這個就業服務法第46條那現在開始上路80歲以上長者聘用外籍看護就是免巴氏量表那當然就是說我們也會擔心就是說一些重症的家庭會聘僱這個外籍看護可能會有一些困難"},{"start":43.234,"end":58.755,"text":"那我也看到就是說勞動部這邊有做一些就是對於這個重症的家庭有一些配套措施那我是不是可以再請部長針對這一部分因為有一些民眾會擔心那我是不是可以先請部長簡單做一個說明"},{"start":60.694,"end":75.562,"text":"好那我還是跟大家說明就是其實對於可能這個這個修法是要修法後那可能會對於重症家庭的衝擊我想勞動部跟衛福部我們很積極的做了一些相關的配套那其中包括"},{"start":76.122,"end":98.831,"text":"那我想我們現在規劃了一個這個輕重分流重症我們優先來做審查希望能盡量降低他來申請或能夠聘僱到這個外籍看護的時間的這樣子的機制那第二個呢我們也很積極的來跟來源的母國來協商是不是能夠增加這個外籍看護進引進的數量第三個我們其實也編列了這個"},{"start":100.211,"end":113.284,"text":"相關的預算跟增加的人力就是希望針對未來的量能提高的時候我們能夠足以因應所以你們的人力都已經編足了我們都已經編了那目前有已經上路之後有遇到什麼樣的狀況嗎"},{"start":115.13,"end":131.176,"text":"其實的確因為上路到現在大概兩個多禮拜兩個多禮拜的時間那第一個禮拜的申請的數字比較少那第二個禮拜申請的數字就是第一個禮拜的兩倍可是未來的趨勢會如何還有一點時間來觀察那我想"},{"start":131.856,"end":158.881,"text":"我們部裡面的同仁包括衛福部的同仁我們還是現在是很積極的來盡量的趕快來協助尤其是重症家庭的申請的量所以重症的家庭的確比方說他們在求財的登記上面他只要一天所以他有一些比較相對快速通關的機制這也希望能夠讓重症的家庭能夠更加的方便但是的確我們還是會有擔心就是說如果未來的量增加的時候會不會影響或會不會排息"},{"start":160.221,"end":185.668,"text":"對 或者是現在有一些在聘僱外籍看護的長者那他們的確現在也收到可能看護會來反映說是不是有接下來在上路後他們有點會想轉出等等的這個這樣子的資訊我們也陸陸續續從各地有收到這樣的訊息那我想我們還是會做整體的狀況來因應那我們希望尤其是對重症的家庭能夠給最多的支持"},{"start":185.848,"end":197.258,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長 因為我最主要是讓部長能夠充分的做一個說明因為地方還是會有一些疑慮那謝謝部長 接下來我們請那個呂次長來呂次 謝謝"},{"start":205.669,"end":225.124,"text":"市長好 市長原本我今天是想要問邱部長的就是前幾天我們看到有關公費生就是衛福部原本有一個重點培育的公費醫師的計畫好像今年已經要停辦"},{"start":226.445,"end":255.61,"text":"那目前就是有幾所學校已經跳出來就是說像中山中興然後還有清大他們原本就是因為這個重點特別培育的公費醫師制度計畫然後設一個這個後醫學系那因為這個計畫停止之後變成說他們沒有這個公費生的就沒辦法再繼續招公費生那我記得我在上個月有針對這一部分有"},{"start":257.151,"end":271.698,"text":"質詢這個部長就是說因為地方有一個疑慮就是說如果這個重點科別培育的公費醫師制度計畫如果停止之後可能偏鄉未來可能偏鄉找不到醫生"},{"start":272.858,"end":292.282,"text":"因為我們現在這個重點科別就是針對這個可能婦科兒科集中南韓這樣的一個專科醫師去做培育那我們也看到就是說現在很多偏鄉的這個醫師以彰化為例我一直在彰化這個西南角的幾個鄉鎮這個醫師"},{"start":296.303,"end":320.87,"text":"有的可能是一家診所兩家診所醫師都已經七八十歲了那有的就是靠衛生所的醫師來支撐地方的這樣的一個醫療那我要再次的提醒就是說未來我們這個重點科別培育的公費醫師制度計畫如果取消之後也許在十年後偏鄉可能就找不到醫生因為我們看到現在"},{"start":323.371,"end":349.905,"text":"這個兒科這個兒醫的這個主任都還要值班了台大這個兒醫的主任都還要值班了甚至我們彰化彰基的這個兒科的主任也都要值班了那像這樣子兒科的醫師都快找不到了也招不滿了那未來如果我們政府不再用這個制度來做這樣子公費醫生的這個培育的話"},{"start":350.805,"end":372.682,"text":"我真的很擔心十年後可能偏鄉真的找不到醫師因為醫師他可能要集中在都會區偏鄉誰要去彰化不是那種在高山或深山的地方只是交通比較不方便只是距離都市比較偏遠一點"},{"start":374.969,"end":398.38,"text":"未來三區的話沒有公費醫師沒有這樣子一個公費醫師的話那偏鄉誰要去我是不是可以簡單請這個呂次雖然你不是負責這一部分的那我也還是請你先回應一下非常感謝秀芳委員對於我們這個議題的關心我想確實就是我們當時要辦這個公費這一個培育計畫其實確實有考慮到偏鄉的需求"},{"start":398.9,"end":419.428,"text":"那我跟委員報告我們想我們現在目前都還在廣納各方的這個意見委員剛剛所說的這個確實你剛說集中南韓還有這一個偏向部分這個確實也是我們也是部長非常非常關心的議題那我們會來就相關的一個情形其實跟委員報告我們會來做這個相關的通盤檢討來做審慎的評估是好"},{"start":423.713,"end":438.787,"text":"現在是這三所學校就是我講的因為因應你們這個計畫然後去設的這個這個這個後一系就是因為變成這個我們這個計畫結束之後這三所後一系的這個部分就沒有公費生了嘛"},{"start":439.508,"end":452.154,"text":"那當然就是說衛福部跟教育部這邊有去做一個協調那還是有一些困難點所以我希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分應該要再去好好的做思考我記得在2017年當時邱部長跟這個林靜儀次長他們當時還在當這個委員的時候"},{"start":460.138,"end":480.18,"text":"那也有特别针对这个公费医师有做一些这个呈请那你看经过这样子几年之后你反而要将这个公费医师我们应该是要让这些公费医师这个制度更完善然后这个所有的这个福利或者是所有的资源应该要更好"},{"start":481.061,"end":502.023,"text":"讓這些公費醫師不會因為這個綁了十年之後十年到他就要趕快離開這個地方應該讓他的資源或者是他能夠更多讓他覺得說我在這邊可以好好的發揮那整個薪資也還不錯讓他願意留在這邊我覺得應該要朝著這個方向去"},{"start":502.603,"end":531.502,"text":"去進行而不是說我乾脆就把這個公費醫師把它取消掉我覺得這個未來會是一個很嚴重的一個問題我們這個急重男孩兒科這些都已經快找不到醫生了那你又把這個公費重點培育的這些科別的醫師又把它取消掉我覺得這個是未來一個非常大的一個問題那我也希望這個呂氏今天回去之後應該要再跟部長應該再好好的去做一個討論"},{"start":532.582,"end":547.388,"text":"是不是公費醫師的這個部分重點培育的這個計畫應該還要再繼續好的OK好OK我會把那個委員剛剛您的那個這個意見趕快跟部長報告部長也會做一個最好的一個衡量跟判斷好不好"},{"start":547.768,"end":567.085,"text":"好因為我們都希望這個偏鄉的醫療跟都市的醫療大家都應該是相等的當然當然而不是說偏鄉的醫療會是不一樣的因為當然我們這個也是衛福部一直希望就是說能夠讓這個偏鄉的醫療大家都是"},{"start":568.306,"end":585.495,"text":"都相同的接受的這個醫療資源都是相同的那你如果未來這樣子的話可能偏鄉找不到醫生或者是資源變少那到時候會是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以我們現在發現問題之後我們也希望衛福部針對這一部分要趕快去做一個"},{"start":586.616,"end":596.703,"text":"我要非常感謝那個委員長期以來對這個議題的關心特別是對彰化還有特別委員說的西南這邊的鄉鎮這個是針對全台灣的部分我也知道西南這邊有比較不足這個部分我想我們會來審慎研議"},{"start":604.428,"end":624.987,"text":"這個不是只有針對彰化彰化其實還不像一些比較原鄉的那個部分原鄉的那個部分可能會更嚴重所以我現在提的就是偏鄉還有我們比較艱困的科別原本你這個計畫就是針對這樣子的一個需求那如果你今天把它取消掉的話我覺得"},{"start":625.888,"end":632.619,"text":"了解 我覺得這個真的是要好好去思考一下 好不好好 謝謝 感謝秀芳委員的關心謝謝 也謝謝主席謝謝市長 謝謝黃委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時55分）謝謝主席，我們先請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，就業服務法第四十六條現在開始上路，八十歲以上長者聘用外籍看護免巴氏量表，當然我們也會擔心一些重症家庭聘僱外籍看護可能會有一些困難。我也看到勞動部對於重症家庭有做一些配套措施，針對這一部分，因為有一些民眾會擔心，我是不是可以先再請部長簡單說明？"],["洪部長申翰：好，我還是跟大家說明，對於就業服務法第四十六條修法後可能會對重症家庭造成的衝擊，勞動部跟衛福部很積極地做了一些相關的配套，我們現在規劃了輕重分流，重症我們優先審查，希望儘量降低來申請或能夠聘僱到外籍看護的時間這樣子的機制。第二個，我們也很積極地跟來源母國協商，是不是能夠增加外籍看護的引進數量。第三個，我們也編列了相關的預算跟增加人力，就是希望未來量能如果提高的時候，我們能夠足以因應。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們的人力都已經編足了？"],["洪部長申翰：我們都已經編了。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，目前上路之後有遇到什麼樣的狀況嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：上路到現在大概兩個多禮拜的時間，第一個禮拜申請的數字比較少，第二個禮拜申請的數字是第一個禮拜的兩倍，可是未來的趨勢會如何還要有一點時間來觀察。我想我們部裡面的同仁，包括衛福部的同仁，現在是很積極地儘量趕快協助，尤其是重症家庭申請的量，重症家庭的確他們在求才的登記上面只要一天，所以有一些比較相對快速通關的機制，這也希望能夠讓重症家庭更加方便。但的確我們還是會擔心，如果未來量增加的時候，會不會影響或會不會排擠……"],["黃委員秀芳：會不會受到排擠。"],["洪部長申翰：對，或者是現在有一些聘僱外籍看護的長者，他們的確也收到看護會來反映，說接下來在上路後他們有點想轉出等等的資訊，我們也陸陸續續從各地有收到這樣的訊息。我想我們還是會就整體的狀況來因應，我們希望尤其對重症家庭能夠給予最多的支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：OK，好，謝謝部長，我最主要是讓部長能夠充分的說明，因為地方還是會有一些疑慮，謝謝部長。","接下來我們請呂次長。"],["主席：請呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長好。次長，原本我今天是想要問邱部長的，前幾天我們看到有關公費生……就是衛福部原本有一個重點培育公費醫師的計畫，好像今年要停辦。目前有幾所學校已經跳出來，像中山、中興及清大，他們原本就是因為重點科別培育公費醫師制度計畫而設一個後醫學系……"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：但因為這個計畫停止之後，變成他們就沒辦法再繼續招公費生了。"],["呂次長建德：了解，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：我記得我在上個月有針對這部分質詢部長，因為地方有一個疑慮，就是如果重點科別培育公費醫師制度計畫停止之後，未來可能偏鄉會找不到醫生。由於現在這個重點科別可能是針對婦科、兒科、急重難罕的專科醫師培育，我們也看到現在很多偏鄉的醫師，以彰化為例，我一直以彰化西南角的幾個鄉鎮為例，有的可能是一家診所、兩家診所，醫師都已經七、八十歲了，有的就是靠衛生所的醫師支撐地方的醫療。我要再次提醒，未來重點科別培育的公費醫師制度計畫如果取消之後，也許10年後偏鄉就找不到醫生，因為我們看到現在兒醫的主任都還要值班，臺大兒醫的主任都還要值班，甚至我們彰化彰基兒科的主任也都要值班，像這樣子兒科的醫師都快找不到了，也招不滿了，未來如果我們政府不再用制度做公費醫生的培育的話，我真的很擔心10年後可能偏鄉真的找不到醫師，因為醫師可能集中在都會區，那偏鄉誰要去？彰化不是那一種在高山或深山的地方，就只是交通比較不方便，只是距離都市比較偏遠一點，未來山區沒有公費醫師，那偏鄉誰要去？我是不是可以簡單請呂次……雖然你不是負責這一部分的，我也還是請你先回應一下。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝秀芳委員對於這個議題的關心，我想確實我們當時要辦公費培育計畫有考慮到偏鄉的需求，我跟委員報告，我們現在都還在廣納各方的意見，委員剛剛所說的確實……你剛剛說急重難罕還有偏鄉的部分，確實也是部長非常非常關心的議題，我們會就相關的情形……其實跟委員報告，我們會來做相關的通盤檢討以及審慎的評估。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，現在是這3所學校，就是我講的，因應你們這個計畫然後去設後醫系，結果這個計畫結束之後，這3所後醫系的部分就沒有公費生了。當然衛福部跟教育部有協調……"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：還是有一些困難點，所以我希望衛福部針對這一部分應該要再去好好地思考。"],["呂次長建德：了解。"],["黃委員秀芳：我記得在2017年，當時邱部長跟林靜儀次長還在當委員的時候，也有特別針對公費醫師做一些陳情，你看這樣子經過幾年之後，你反而要將公費醫師……我們應該是要讓這些公費醫師的制度更完善，然後所有的福利或者是所有的資源應該要更好，讓這些公費醫師不會因為綁了10年之後，10年到了他就要趕快離開這個地方，應該讓他的資源更多，讓他覺得我在這邊可以好好發揮，整個薪資也還不錯，讓他願意留在這邊。我覺得應該要朝這個方向去進行，而不是說乾脆就把公費醫師取消掉。我覺得這個未來會是一個很嚴重的問題，急重難罕、兒科這些都已經快找不到醫生了，你又把公費重點培育這些科別的醫師取消掉，我覺得未來會是一個非常大的問題。我也希望呂次今天回去之後應該要再跟部長好好地討論……"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["黃委員秀芳：是不是公費醫師重點培育的計畫應該還要再繼續？"],["呂次長建德：好的，OK，好，我會把委員剛剛的意見趕快跟部長報告，我想部長也會做最好的衡量跟判斷，好不好？"],["黃委員秀芳：好，因為我們都希望偏鄉的醫療跟都市的醫療是相等的……"],["呂次長建德：當然、當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：而不是說偏鄉的醫療會是不一樣的，當然衛福部也是一直希望能夠讓偏鄉的醫療……大家都是相同的，接受的醫療資源都是相同的。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果未來這樣子的話，可能偏鄉找不到醫生，這是資源變少，到時候會是一個非常嚴重的問題。我們現在發現問題之後，也希望衛福部針對這一部分要趕快去做。"],["呂次長建德：當然，我要非常感謝委員長期以來對這個議題的關心，特別是對彰化還有委員特別說的西南地區的鄉鎮……"],["黃委員秀芳：這個是針對全臺灣的部分。"],["呂次長建德：我自己也是彰化的小孩，我也知道西南這邊真的比較不足，這個部分我想我們會審慎研議。"],["黃委員秀芳：這個不是只有針對彰化，彰化其實還不像一些比較原鄉，原鄉的部分可能會更嚴重。我現在提的就是偏鄉還有比較艱困的科別，原本你這個計畫就是針對這樣子的需求，如果今天你把它取消掉的話，我覺得這個真的是要好好去思考一下，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝秀芳委員的關心，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：也謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝次長、謝謝黃委員。我們現在休息。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時18分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。","接下來請林淑芬委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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都來問勞動部為什麼勞動部補助零日工級"},{"start":149.605,"end":151.929,"text":"很多人來問我們這個問題但是這個標讓很多人在讀起來的時候都來問我們說為什麼所以我們才要說勞動部沒有補助臨時工級因為當天真的很多人來問我們這個問題所以我才要講這是第一點"},{"start":164.967,"end":186.829,"text":"那第二點剛剛委員在問到開口契約的問題的時候的確我們後來在去年底做了開口契約的部長我想先請問第一個問題我剛說是不是這個沒宣的費用和經費和使用都是有不本不統籌是吧那我想要先再問一下那當初這個是誰當初是不本不統籌對那是誰簽准同意這個開口合約的方式針對這個案子"},{"start":190.305,"end":217.193,"text":"我想我還是必須說就是針對當初的這個開口契約的使用那我們其實在去年年底我們就做出了檢討部長你先回答我嘛當初這個這個導演他相關的案子他的開口合約和這樣子的媒體採購 媒宣採購的部分是誰同意使用這個開口合約方式我現在手上可能沒有這個資料你沒有但你知道嗎我現在手上沒有這個資料那你們知道嗎你們有去調查嗎"},{"start":218.547,"end":233.917,"text":"有嗎我跟委員說明現在這些相關的救安基金的案子你先不要用說在檢調那裡因為看起來你們也搞不清楚狀況我只是想問說因為剛剛部長也有說你們有這個要做懲處啊或是內部要去做檢調那到底是誰你們知道嗎"},{"start":235.098,"end":254.718,"text":"不知道的話怎麼懲處 怎麼去做我們做了檢討了檢討你是叫制度面嘛我們對於接下來開口契約的使用方式包括適用的範圍我們做出了檢討我們認為比方說像是一些影片我們就認為不太適合再放在這個政策宣導的開口契約裡面"},{"start":255.879,"end":278.59,"text":"除了影片之外的沒選咧還是有很多開口紀約嗎除了影片我們認為一些影片包括一些活動的辦理不適合放在開口紀約部長因為你還是沒有回答我問題好我再問下一題我等一下再回來問你這一題純粹看補助的成效其實也非常的糟糕在2022年的時候拍攝勞動節主題影片製作阿仿洗衣店他單支影片補助是1069就是1069萬按讚數僅488"},{"start":284.153,"end":304.772,"text":"那2023年呢 這個羅導演又接續接了勞動節的主題影片紙紮片補助971萬元 按讚數是1761那2024年呢 又補助了 又拍攝了第三支影片勞動萬歲搬家片 花了831萬 按讚數只有202個"},{"start":308.695,"end":320.593,"text":"那平均一個站最便宜是6000塊最貴4.1萬我想這樣的成果是民眾百姓是看不下去的是沒辦法看下去這也是為什麼我們要去"},{"start":321.67,"end":344.058,"text":"看緊荷包所以包含部長這個羅導演在臉書說他拍攝超過1500隻廣告客戶來自全球世界各地是純粹的商業廣告導演許多的作品在好像各地都有獲獎那我想要問請問為什麼拍出的成果這麼糟糕那只有幾種可能嗎第一個"},{"start":344.918,"end":362.085,"text":"拍攝的成品有問題商業案他所謂號稱優秀的導演那面對公部門的標案是不是隨便亂做這是第一個可能第二可能勞動部在驗收的時候放水成品有瑕疵卻不知道第三個可能是成品好可能很優秀但勞動部拿到成品後卻不積極宣傳"},{"start":363.866,"end":386.363,"text":"那我想不管是哪一種都是讓人沒有辦法接受的所以部長我想問到底是哪一個單位負責驗收然後驗收報告可不可以提供給本席跟委員會成效這麼差成效這麼差你可以看到成效這麼糟糕這麼糟糕的成效為什麼可以連續三年拿到標案跟委員說明"},{"start":387.335,"end":409.529,"text":"第一個這個成效有點難只看一個單一的平台上面這些按讚數單一平台嗎那如果所有平台加起來多少我先跟委員說明這三支這三支影片都有獲得4A的創意獎其中一支甚至還入圍這個坎城創意獎我想這入圍這些獎項跟得這個獎都不是容易的事情這三支影片"},{"start":409.949,"end":427.055,"text":"所以你覺得是重點是在於宣傳還是是我要跟委員說的是說第一個這並不是三支很糟糕的影片不是像委員剛才口中說很糟糕的影片我說成效啊他得到很多的獎項那其實他的品質也是好的"},{"start":427.526,"end":455.091,"text":"那就成效或者是點閱數來說的話也不能只是看單一一個平台也包括他脫波的次數都包括在這裡面所以我要跟文說明說當然這個這位導演他在廣告界有他素有聲譽的地方來部長我跟你說第一個我剛有說成果很差有三種可能我也不是完全就是說這個得獎還是怎麼樣的成效"},{"start":455.791,"end":481.887,"text":"我是問說他的這個宣傳的成果是很差的不然你當初你拍這個片不是重點就是要宣傳嗎好那成果差我剛有說三種可能一個成品有問題會不會是優秀導演他做出來成品沒問題那你說成品沒問題成品沒問題那是不是你驗收的時候是怎麼驗收的是不是有放水還是說成品很優秀你沒有好好的經營沒有好好的宣傳所以我的問題是部長是哪一個單位驗收"},{"start":482.307,"end":507.56,"text":"那驗收的報告包含你剛剛說的不只是網路的成果還有包含脫波這些相關的成效我想問說驗收報告可不可以提供給本席跟委員會我想我們其實之前在我們包括審計的一些報告我們其實都有提供給都有提供給立法院的然後再來剛剛說為什麼連續三年度還可以拿到開口契約然後我想就我所知因為當時不是我主政"},{"start":508.8,"end":527.765,"text":"就我所知是因為這位導演第一個他真的在廣告界裡面素有聲譽而且他的拍攝的成果的品質都做到很多的好評就我知道是這樣所以因為這樣子那所以只要說他素有聲譽他來拍就可以輕鬆得標是這樣子嗎我不知道"},{"start":528.525,"end":557.055,"text":"那所以我想要問的就是我不知道什麼輕不輕鬆但是就我知道之所以他拿到所以部長我想請問一下他的確是業界非常非常知名而且他的工作的成果也很好的這個部長我還是想要回到剛剛講的那到底是誰簽合的你們到底部內知不知道然後當初你們簽的剛剛前面委員也有講到他本來應該要履約的是35部影片兩場記者會但是最後呢只有一部影片一場記者會"},{"start":557.995,"end":581.287,"text":"那這個部分到底是誰驗收所以第一個問題 各位說明其實現在有點誤會35市那個市並不是指一市就是一部影片不是這個意思你可以看很多的開口卻並不是市代表的是一個計價單位那是多少一個計價單位大概是19萬多吧大概19萬4千多等一下部長那我還是你回到我的問題喔"},{"start":582.847,"end":598.637,"text":"這個細節我剛才不是問你說一試多少我是要問說那是誰驗收的因為你剛才說35部影片那不是35部影片35試那我想請問到底是誰驗收所以你認為他得到這些金額他目前繳交的成果是完全合理的跟委員說明我們正是"},{"start":599.957,"end":623.438,"text":"那為什麼你剛剛又要說你們有回去要懲處相關的在前面的委員在問的時候我跟廖委員說明我是說你剛才問我說這個導演這個導演他真的在業界是素有聲譽的那他拍出來的這三支影片的確也得獎很多這是事實他的確得獎很多但是這個開口契約在執行面的做法我們認為我到部裡面以後"},{"start":624.406,"end":652.64,"text":"我認為是可以有更好的執行的方式的那請問是誰去簽的是誰核准這個開口契約那你什麼時候可以給本席辦公室跟委員會我們可能回去來看一下相關的資料但是我要說的事情是說我們其實已經把相關的開口契約停下來檢討了所以我再進來問一下請問部長現在還有其他的沒選是用開口契約的嗎今年是沒有了沒有了你剛剛是說年初還有你是先暫停"},{"start":653.9,"end":676.175,"text":"我去年底去年底在114年的開口契約的標案我就把它給廢標停下來到現在都還是停的我們都停下來檢討了所以這個部分現在都不會再用開口契約嗎不是我講的不是未來不會是我們在檢討在美宣上面還需要嗎讓我說明我們認為在開口契約的使用上面"},{"start":677.156,"end":692.598,"text":"未來可能不適合再把影片或者是活動放到因為影片跟活動其實他比較沒有一個公定的價格所以可能會造成大家比較多在理解上面或者是包括在驗收上面比較就像審計部說的那樣"},{"start":693.8,"end":711.193,"text":"所以這是為什麼我們做出檢討以後我們就把標案給停下來那我們未來接下來就算要用開口契約也會把這幾個項目從開口契約的範圍拿出來我認為這樣子的情況是非常的有疑義的這中間到底有沒有圖利問題是不是應該要請部長請政風移送檢調進行刑事調查"},{"start":712.654,"end":734.963,"text":"跟文說明現在這個我們在救安基金的支用的問題上面其實檢調都一直是有立案在調查所以有包含這個案子嗎是也有全部的資料全部都有配合檢調調查是好那到時候再把剛剛我們我剛剛本席提的就是說到底是誰核准這些開口契約用這種沒沒宣的費用的方式到時候給本席和委員會辦個報告好不好我們回去"},{"start":735.063,"end":759.506,"text":"再看一下相關的事再來就是這個開口契約使用我們是徹底的檢討中的再來再問一下接下來是針對我們今天的主題巴士量表針對這個部分當初勞動部一直在修法前到現在都說會有10萬的人申請會衝擊重症家庭那我想要請問一下部長第一週到底是申請的多少人那到8月17日截止到底有多少人申請"},{"start":760.667,"end":776.767,"text":"我們現在看到的數據 第一週確實是比較少那第二週就是第一週的兩倍 比較少是多少應該是四百多 四百多四五百 四五百 四百多 四五百然後第二週是 以前就是第一週的兩倍那我想要請 所以到八月十七為止總共是多少現在是1450左右 1450"},{"start":779.19,"end":805.518,"text":"那所以兩週下來大約1450一個月大約是可能不到3000件2800件2900件左右那我會說現在啦我會說目前這樣推估我當然知道接下來你很難預估未來的狀況我們現在比較難急下去預估未來一定他的趨勢的走向那我想要請教一下因為確實這個趨勢在12週來說是上升的那80歲以上跟70歲以上的這個癌症患者"},{"start":806.218,"end":809.934,"text":"就是可以符合申請條件的目前有申請並通過的又是幾件"},{"start":812.626,"end":836.207,"text":"時間點都還沒有辦法 他現在都還在求財登記的階段他現在是在求財接濟 後面才會取得這個求財的證明那後面才是招募許可所以部長其實我想要講的事情是其實今天的報告你完全沒有提到這些相關的數字喔今天你們提供的報告只有在質詢的時候你才把剛剛的數字講出來所以我希望這個部分應該是要用"},{"start":837.128,"end":860.303,"text":"科學務實理性的方式去看數字的變化而不是一直喊這種狼來了喔有10萬多人過去立法就是用這種政治性的語言我覺得現在既然政策要上路了我們就是務實的面對所以第一週你說400多人第二週是1000人所以總共目前為止17號其實17號是1450人喔那我想要講的事情是其實在實務上喔"},{"start":861.738,"end":884.44,"text":"目前也有人說地方上就是說你有資格申請但是在申請程序上你剛說前面先7天登記嘛在這個國內的求財7天先求財7天沒有然後才會去進一步的審查對不對然後在審查上面審查會上面審查員這個是這個民眾地方民眾的反應就是說也有可能會有技術性的阻擋不會"},{"start":885.501,"end":903.135,"text":"不會所以就是只要過了就會重開我跟委員說明其實對於輕症的來說就是按照過去過去怎麼做現在就怎麼做輕症的部分我們做的是把重症做優先可是我們不會去阻擋也不會去卡輕症的好那我想要說的是包含台南的就業服務工會的這個理事長"},{"start":903.996,"end":918.942,"text":"他是有提到在報道上面有提到他就說假設第一年這個其實只有申請他說以目前他們的推估這是業界的推估不是我的推估他說以目前這樣看起來前面的這些數字第一年可能申請的就是2萬到3萬人"},{"start":920.563,"end":940.699,"text":"那本席是想問說那具體而言這部分補得足嗎然後再來是因為本來年初通過這個法案你有大概7個月的準備期嗎那這個部分你們究竟成果如何因為你擔心是來源不足或是移工看護的量能不足那你也多了7個月的時間我想請問你補得上這個"},{"start":942.185,"end":968.076,"text":"目前的進度是怎麼樣跟文說明在去年底通過然後1月20號總統公告後我們馬上就找四個移工的來源國在商議要增加這個引進的量我們馬上就跟他們討論了部長我不是要問你過程我想問結果就是說成果是什麼因為當初一通過你說需要給勞動部時間去消化嘛"},{"start":968.536,"end":995.475,"text":"那我只是想問說因為你看我們8月1號上路目前為止是1450好那我們假設預估啦假設預估用所謂業界的標準來看假設一年是兩到三萬人那想要請問這個部分勞動部準備的怎麼樣過去七個月成果如何然後未來是不是可以就是這個來源訓練因為你剛剛有說其實你剛剛部長也有說到目前的來源國他可能是也有也有足夠的量可是你也要兼顧訓練的品質嘛對不對"},{"start":998.077,"end":1021.174,"text":"所以看起來我都不敢用足夠這兩個字但我們會盡量的跟他協商增加所以沒有換言之其實重點問題到底在哪是不是訓練的量能是嗎我跟委員說明其實這七個月左右的時間我們做了幾件事情第一個剛才跟來源母國來協商增加第二個我們也建立了輕重分流重症優先的"},{"start":1023.481,"end":1040.283,"text":"這個機制審查流程這跟很謝謝衛福部一起協助第三個我把讓委員讓我說我們也擴編了預算包括擴編了人力來補充包括這個照管中心他可能所需要的人力包括我們自己需要審案件的人力"},{"start":1041.044,"end":1066.255,"text":"所以經費跟人力我們也增加了這都是7個月左右的時間我們的配套包括這些人力也還要訓練喔這些增加的人力都還要訓練這就是在這7個月裡面我們在進行的事情部長好那我在這裡說謝謝感謝勞動部的所有同仁這個大家辛苦了那也感謝大家因為其實這個是一個在民間是一個德政但是我還是想要問我們務實的討論嘛我剛剛說了那個就業服務"},{"start":1070.036,"end":1098.118,"text":"那個同業工會這個台南理事長今天報導寫他說如果以目前的量來看預計可能是2萬到3萬人一年那我就只是剛剛一個簡單的問題就是說面對這樣的狀況假設是2到3萬的需求量請問現在勞動部過去7個月你剛剛做的那些可能都是方法或者是你有做了哪些努力我只是想問說那你成果是怎麼樣你目前估計起來這2萬到3萬人你有沒有辦法消化"},{"start":1099.906,"end":1127.161,"text":"我想我們還是要真的還是要努力啦請問有沒有相關的數字給本席啊就是說你過去7個月你剛剛說你做了這麼多的努力好那我想要請問那你這7個月你有多了多少的移工看護因為這基本上是供需問題嘛不是移工看護不是從不是這7個月移工看護是要到8月1號才開始進來所以那你預估你過去的努力可以增加有沒有辦法消化我剛剛意思也是這樣就是說你未來"},{"start":1128.752,"end":1156.894,"text":"我剛剛再次講他們預估的數據打這是一年兩到三萬人多這個需求的申請那想要請問勞動部請就我的問題就是說你過去七個月的準備你認為接下來這一年你有沒有辦法提供這樣子的量我們會全力以赴啦我們相關的準備我們會全力以赴 部長有沒有預估的數字 不能就是只有講全力以赴我一直想要表達就是說數據在這裡那你大概 有沒有辦法 跟委員說明包括我們照"},{"start":1158.515,"end":1175.286,"text":"像我們有補助衛福部的這個照管中心的一些人力包括我們部裡面審查的人力其實這些人力補助的多跟少我們也一直在密切的看那就是看這個案源的量增加多少"},{"start":1176.147,"end":1202.562,"text":"按援的量增加多少大家現在的確有各種預估有些人預估比較高一點有些人比較預估低一點但從勞動部的角度我們應該要把狀況設想的比較如果人比較多我們可以因應的話那就相對有比較好的條件來去面對人比較少的狀況我覺得是這樣就是說勞動部應該要做好所謂的高預估中預估然後可能低預估那你就是剛剛你說的勞動部要"},{"start":1204.584,"end":1224.717,"text":"這個嚴謹的面對嘛所以假設是高預估那你究竟現在的量能可以符合是什麼到底是可以符合你的低預估呢還是中預估還是你高預估現在做不到那我們就要去想那怎麼解決嘛我要跟委員說明的確我們現在在收到的一些案子包括來城前案子裡面也包括比方說會有一些他的看護的僱主他在表達說"},{"start":1226.259,"end":1244.275,"text":"因為這個修法之後所以部長不好意思我是覺得我們不要一直用這種個案式的就要有人來反映這個有人來反映那個我其實想要表達就是這樣那實況是我剛剛一直問你究竟你的量能的數據究竟你量能的數據可不可以符合我們會盡力"},{"start":1247.008,"end":1269.211,"text":"好部長因為時間我知道我也過很久可是我還是想要告訴大家其實可以看到我剛問的問題是勞動部是沒有具體的數據我知道勞動部的大家都很辛苦但是我是希望說一樣務實理性面對所以剛剛說的都是數字現在已經上路了8月17號1450人申請好那究竟一年推估大約多少我剛也說了"},{"start":1270.312,"end":1291.851,"text":"這個業界說可能是一年兩到三萬那究竟勞動部假設兩到三萬好了是中推估好那你可不可以符合你目前過去七個月所做的努力你剛講了你做了很多的努力好我們都沒有要抹殺但是究竟你可不可以補上一年兩三萬的這個缺口我們會盡力全力以赴這是我其實本席重要的問題我們會盡力全力以赴但我們不能夠把話講得太滿"},{"start":1293.352,"end":1318.217,"text":"我沒有要你講太滿我們也是務實理性嘛我剛剛就說了低推估中推估高推估那你究竟目前為止你過去7個月的努力你究竟是可以做到低推估中推估還是高推估部長你剛剛都沒有回答我你只有回答我全力以赴我知道大家都很辛苦但委員說明我沒有辦法把話講得太滿那因為這裡面的確還有不確定性那沒有部長那你可不可以告訴我你不能講太滿那你可不可以告訴我你的低推估中推估高推估你可以滿足的是什麼"},{"start":1319.057,"end":1339.927,"text":"其實我剛剛一直要問的是這個這是我為什麼要講剛剛的例子因為你要講滿足這個滿足這個話要這是這個不容易我說數量我說數量我說為什麼不容易讓我說明為什麼不容易因為其實現在是有很多的這些聘僱看護的長者他確實現在遇到看護會跟他說我真的想轉出了"},{"start":1341.772,"end":1364.938,"text":"真的表達他想轉出或者是他要求增加薪資這個事情其實對於很多聘僱的家庭來說對他來講也是一個新的情境的衝擊部長所以剛剛我提到的就是你的供應也是修法以後產生的狀況你過去7個月準備供應來源有沒有辦法補上就可以彌補你剛剛說的狀況因為如果你的供應來源是足夠的他可能就沒有這個所謂的狀況發生"},{"start":1367.658,"end":1387.623,"text":"但是這確實還是有母國的因素他不全然控制在我們手上好謝謝今天在場很多官員我相信剛剛我的問題應該是蠻單純的就是說這個供應究竟足不足夠那我希望的是部長請大家一起共同務實理性面對現在既然有數字了那究竟數字預估多少以及你可不可以趕上請"},{"start":1388.863,"end":1410.637,"text":"那個貴部可以提供本席報告好不好針對我剛剛的問題因為你剛剛沒有辦法回答我好那我希望可以提供給本席跟委員會你們究竟可以提在這一年過去七個月準備接接下來一年可能會遇到的量能你究竟準備了多少好這個我覺得是比較務實的我們把我們準備的量能可以好不好說明好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝廖委員還有部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":481,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時31分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長早。部長，今天主要兩個大題，第一題，我想要先針對就安基金。就安基金被披露2022年到2024年之間，補助電視劇「零日攻擊」導演的羅景壬團隊，獲得就安基金2,872萬元的補助。我要先講前幾天有這個新聞出來說勞動部好像是問A答B，你說你們沒有補助「零日攻擊」，但是其實他們在講的就是補助這個團隊，這個部分還是用開口契約發包。所以要請部長注意，我剛剛有講過，我們不是針對補助「零日攻擊」這個影集，而是針對就安基金補助羅導演拍勞動部影片的部分，在程序上提出很嚴正的質疑。開口契約就臺北市政府訂定的採購注意事項解釋，是適用於契約所列的履約期間數量不定，由機關依實際需要隨時通知廠商履約的採購。我相信不管是中央或地方，這個大概都是類似的概念和規定，所以換句話說，這是一個可以依照政府機關自身需求做出彈性的採購，但是對於得標廠商而言，它是不用列出相關計畫內容或者成效目標的空白支票，最終也可能導致行政機關勞動部驗收的時候無法核驗的情況，我想這也都是審計部年度報告及就安基金專門審計報告一而再、再而三點出來的內容，包含之前有提到「敬！前進的光」相關音樂會濫用的部分。所以我想要請問一下部長，媒體宣傳的經費跟使用方式是不是由部本部統籌？"],["洪部長申翰：先跟廖委員說明，第一個，我並不是問A答B，就像委員看到當天媒體的下標，就像左邊這個標，因為很多人讀到媒體這個標題的時候都來問勞動部，說為什麼勞動部補助「零日攻擊」？很多人來問我們這個問題……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是它的標題寫得很清楚，「零日攻擊」導演還有……"],["洪部長申翰：但是這個標題讓很多人讀起來的時候，都來問我們說為什麼勞動部補助「零日攻擊」，所以我們才要說勞動部沒有補助「零日攻擊」，因為當天真的有很多人來問我們這個問題，所以我才要講清楚，這是第一點。第二點，剛剛委員問到開口契約問題的時候，的確我們在去年底做了開口契約的檢討……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想先請問第一個問題，我剛剛說媒宣的經費和使用方式是不是由部本部統籌？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我再問一下，當初這個是誰……"],["洪部長申翰：當初是部本部統籌。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，針對這個案子，是誰簽准同意這個開口合約的方式？"],["洪部長申翰：我還是必須說針對當初開口契約的使用，其實我們在去年年底就做出了檢討……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你先回答我當初這個導演相關的案子，他的開口合約和媒宣採購的部分是誰同意使用這個開口契約的？"],["洪部長申翰：我手上沒有這些資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：你沒有，但你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我現在手上沒有這些資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你們知道嗎？你們有去調查嗎？有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，現在這些就安基金相關的案子的確……"],["廖委員偉翔：你先不要說在檢調那裡，看起來你們也搞不清楚狀況，我只是想要問……因為剛剛部長也有說你們要懲處或是內部要檢討，那到底是誰你們知道嗎？不知道的話，怎麼懲處、怎麼去做？"],["洪部長申翰：我們做了檢討了。"],["廖委員偉翔：檢討是制度面，沒有針對這件事……"],["洪部長申翰：我們對於接下來開口契約的使用方式，包括適用的範圍做出了檢討，比方像一些影片，我們就認為不太適合再放在政策宣導的開口契約裡面。"],["廖委員偉翔：除了影片之外的媒宣呢？還是有很多開口契約嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為一些影片包括一些活動的辦理，不適合放在開口契約……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，因為你還是沒有回答我的問題，我再問下一題，我等一下再回來問你這一題。純粹看補助的成效其實也非常糟糕，在2022年的時候，拍攝勞動節主題影片，製作「阿紡洗衣店」，單支影片補助1,069萬，按讚數僅488。2023年羅導演又接續接了勞動節的主題影片「紙紮篇」，補助971萬元，按讚數是1,761。2024年又補助拍攝第三支影片「勞動萬歲─搬家篇」，花了831萬，按讚數只有202個，平均一個讚最便宜的是6,000塊，最貴是4.1萬，我想這樣的成果百姓是沒辦法看下去的，這也就是為什麼我們要看緊荷包。包含羅導演在臉書說他拍攝超過1,500支廣告，客戶來自全球世界各地，是純粹的商業廣告導演，許多作品好像在各地都有獲獎。既然如此，我想問為什麼拍出的成果這麼糟糕？只有幾種可能：第一個，拍攝的成品有問題，號稱商業案的優秀導演，面對公部門的標案，是不是隨便亂做？這是第一個可能。第二個可能是勞動部在驗收的時候放水，成品有瑕疵卻不知道。第三個是成品可能很優秀，但勞動部拿到成品後卻不積極宣傳。我想不管是哪一種都是讓人沒有辦法接受的，所以我想問部長到底是哪一個單位負責驗收？驗收報告可不可以提供給本席及委員會？你可以看到成效這麼糟糕，這麼糟糕的成效為什麼可以連續三年拿到標案？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，成效有點難只看單一平臺上的按讚數……"],["廖委員偉翔：單一平臺嗎？如果所有平臺加起來是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：我先跟委員說明，這三支影片都有獲得4A的創意獎，其中一支甚至還入圍坎城創意獎，我想入圍這些獎項和得獎都不是容易的事情。這三支影片……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你覺得重點在於宣傳還是……"],["洪部長申翰：我要跟委員說明，第一個，這並不是三支很糟糕的影片，不是像委員剛才口中所說很糟糕的影片……"],["廖委員偉翔：我說成效啊！"],["洪部長申翰：它得到很多獎項，其實它的品質也是好的，就成效……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛說有三種可能嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：就成效或者點閱數來說的話，也不能只是看單一一個平臺，其實託播的次數也包括在這裡面，所以我要跟委員說明，當然這位導演在廣告界有他素有聲譽的地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，第一個，我剛剛有說成果很差有三種可能，我也不是完全說得獎還是怎麼樣的成效，我是問他宣傳的成果是很差的，當初拍這個片的重點不就是要宣傳嗎？成果差我剛剛說有三種可能，一個是成品有問題，會不會是優秀導演他做出來的成品有問題？你說成品沒問題，如果成品沒問題，那你驗收的時候是怎麼驗收的？是不是有放水？還是說成品很優秀，你沒有好好的宣傳？所以我的問題是，究竟是哪個單位驗收的？關於驗收的報告，包含你剛剛說的不只是網路的成果，還有包含託播相關的成效，我想問驗收報告可不可以提供給本席及委員會？"],["洪部長申翰：之前包括審計的一些報告，其實我們都有提供給立法院了。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，剛剛提到為什麼連續三年度還可以拿到開口契約？"],["洪部長申翰：雖然當時不是我主政，但就我所知是因為這位導演他真的在廣告界裡面素有聲譽，而且他拍攝成果的品質都獲得很多好評，就我知道是這樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，還是請你回答我的問題，因為這樣子，所以只要素有聲譽他來拍就可以輕鬆得標，是這樣子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我不知道什麼輕不輕鬆，但是就我所知，他之所以拿到這個標案，原因是因為他的確在業界非常非常知名，而且他的工作成果也是很好的……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我還是想要回到剛剛講的，那到底是誰簽核的？你們部內到底知不知道？至於當初你們簽的契約，剛剛前面委員也有講到，他本來應該要履約的是三十五部影片、兩場記者會，但最後卻只有一部影片、一場記者會，這個部分到底是誰驗收？所以第一個問題……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實現在有點誤會，針對三十五式的「式」，並不是一式就是一部影片，不是這個意思，你可以看很多的開口契約……"],["廖委員偉翔：那是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：「式」代表的是一個計價單位……"],["廖委員偉翔：那是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：一個計價單位大概是十九萬四千多。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你還是回到我的問題，關於這些細節，我剛才不是問你一式多少，我是要問……"],["洪部長申翰：因為你剛才說三十五部影片，其實並不是三十五部影片……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，是三十五式，那我想要請問到底是誰驗收的？所以你認為他得到這些金額，他目前繳交的成果是完全合理的？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們正式在整體的……"],["廖委員偉翔：為什麼你剛剛說你們回去要懲處相關人員？當前面委員在問的時候。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟廖委員說明，你剛才問我這個導演，這個導演在業界真的是素有聲譽，他拍出來的這三支影片的確也得獎很多，這是事實，他的確得獎很多。但是這個開口契約在執行面的作法，我到部裡面以後，我認為可以有更好的執行方式……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問是誰核准這個開口契約？"],["洪部長申翰：現在我手邊沒有這個資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：你什麼時候可以給本席辦公室跟委員會？"],["洪部長申翰：我們回去之後可能要看一下相關的資料，但是我要說的事情是，我們其實已經把相關的開口契約停下來檢討了。"],["廖委員偉翔：我的時間有限，所以我再進一步問一下，請問部長，現在還有其他媒宣是用開口契約的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：今年沒有了。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有了？你剛剛是說年初還有，但是你們先暫停，請問有多少？"],["洪部長申翰：去年底針對114年開口契約的標案，我就把它廢標停下來，到現在都還是停的，我們都停下來檢討了。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這個部分現在都不會再用開口契約了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我講的不是未來不會，而是我們在檢討……"],["廖委員偉翔：在媒宣上面還需要嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，請讓我說明，我們認為在開口契約的使用上面，未來可能不適合再把影片或者是活動放到裡面，因為影片跟活動比較沒有一個公定的價格，所以可能會造成大家在理解上面或者是驗收上面會像審計部說的那樣，這就是為什麼我們做出檢討以後，就把標案給停下來。接下來就算要用開口契約，也會把這幾個項目從開口契約的範圍拿出來……"],["廖委員偉翔：我認為這次這樣的情況是非常有疑慮的，這中間到底有沒有圖利問題，部長是不是應該要請政風移送檢調進行刑事調查？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在我們在就安基金支用的問題上面，其實檢調都一直有立案在調查，而且全力配合。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以也包含這個案子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：也有，全部的資料都有配合檢調調查？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。到時候再把剛剛本席提的，就是到底是誰核准這些開口契約用這種媒宣費用的方式，給本席和委員會報告，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我們回去再看一下相關的資料。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就是……"],["洪部長申翰：但是這個開口契約的使用，我們是澈底地檢討中的。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，接下來是針對今天的主題巴氏量表，當初勞動部在修法前一直到現在都說會有10萬人申請、衝擊重症家庭，我想要請問一下，第一週到底申請了多少人？到8月17日為止，到底有多少人申請？"],["洪部長申翰：從我們現在看到的數據，第一週確實是比較少，第二週就是第一週的兩倍……"],["廖委員偉翔：「比較少」是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是四百多……"],["廖委員偉翔：四百多？"],["洪部長申翰：四、五百。"],["廖委員偉翔：四百多？"],["洪部長申翰：四、五百。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那第二週是……"],["洪部長申翰：第二週是1,000，就是第一週的兩倍。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以到8月17日為止，總共是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：現在是1,450左右。"],["廖委員偉翔：1,450。所以兩週下來大約1,450，一個月可能不到3,000件，大約2,800件、2,900件左右……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：我是說現在，我是說目前這樣推估……"],["洪部長申翰：委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：我當然知道接下來你很難預估未來的狀況，但你先聽我講……"],["洪部長申翰：對，委員，我們現在比較難去預估未來趨勢的走向會不會像之前……"],["廖委員偉翔：那我想要請教一下……"],["洪部長申翰：因為確實這個趨勢在第二週來說是上升的。"],["廖委員偉翔：80歲以上或70歲以上的癌症患者可以符合申請條件，目前有申請並通過的又是幾件？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，時間點都還沒有辦法確定，現在都還在求才登記的階段，後面才會取得求才的證明，接下來才是招募許可及聘僱許可。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想要講的事情是，其實今天你們提供的報告完全沒有提到這些相關的數字，我在質詢的時候，你才把剛剛的數字講出來……"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們就讓委員知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我希望這個部分應該用科學、務實、理性的方式去看數字的變化，而不是一直喊狼來了、有十萬多人等等，過去立法時就是用這種政治性的語言，我覺得現在既然政策要上路了，我們就務實地面對。你說第一週有四百多人，第二週是1,000人，截至8月17日為止是1,450人。我想要講的事情是，其實在實務上，目前地方上也有人說雖然有資格申請，但是在申請程序上，你剛剛說前面先7天登記，在國內的……"],["洪部長申翰：求才7天。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，先求才7天，招募不到人，才會去進一步地審查，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後在審查會上面審查員……這個是地方民眾的反映，就是也有可能會有技術性的阻擋……"],["洪部長申翰：不會！"],["廖委員偉翔：不會？"],["洪部長申翰：不會。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以只要過了就會從寬？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，其實對輕症的來說，就是按照過去怎麼做，現在就怎麼做，這是輕症的部分。我們做的是把重症優先，可是我們不會去阻擋、也不會去卡輕症的。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我想要說的是，報導提到臺南就業服務商業同業公會理事長表示，以目前他們業界的推估（不是我的推估）看起來，第一年可能申請的是2萬到3萬人，本席想問，具體而言，這部分補得足嗎？再來，本來年初通過這個法案，你有大概7個月的準備期，就這個部分，究竟你們的成果如何？因為你擔心來源不足或是移工看護的量能不足，你多了7個月的時間，我想請問，目前的進度是怎麼樣？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，自去年底通過、1月20日總統公告後，我們馬上就找4個移工的來源國商議要增加引進的量，我們馬上就跟他們討論了。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我不是要問你過程，我想問結果，成果是什麼？因為當初一通過，你說需要給勞動部時間去消化嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我只是想問，你看，8月1日上路，目前為止是1,450件，用業界的標準來看，假設預估一年是2到3萬人，想要請問就這個部分勞動部準備得怎麼樣？過去7個月的成果如何？未來是不是可以，就是這個來源訓練……其實剛剛部長也有說到，目前的來源國可能有足夠的量，可是也要兼顧訓練的品質，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以看起來……"],["洪部長申翰：我都不敢用「足夠」這兩個字，但我們會儘量跟它協商增加。"],["廖委員偉翔：換言之，其實重點問題到底在哪？是不是訓練的量能，是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實這7個月左右的時間我們做了幾件事情：第一個，跟來源母國協商增加；第二個，我們也建立了輕重分流、重症優先的機制、審查流程，很謝謝衛福部一起協助……"],["廖委員偉翔：是……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，讓我說完。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["洪部長申翰：第三個，我們也擴編了預算、擴編了人力，來補充照管中心可能所需要的人力、我們自己需要審案件的人力，所以經費及人力我們也增加了，這都是7個月左右的時間……我們的配套包括這些人力也還要訓練，這些增加的人力都還要訓練，這就是在這7個月裡面我們在進行的事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我在這裡說：謝謝，感謝勞動部的所有同仁，大家辛苦了，也感謝大家，這在民間是一個德政。但是我還是想要務實地討論，我剛剛說了，報導寫到臺南就業服務同業公會理事長表示，如果以目前的量來看，預計可能是一年2萬到3萬人。我只問一個簡單的問題，面對這樣的狀況，假設是2到3萬人的需求量，勞動部過去7個月做的那些方法或者做了哪些努力，我只是想問，你的成果是怎麼樣？目前估計起來，這2萬到3萬人你有沒有辦法消化？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們還是要努力，因為……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問有沒有相關的數字給本席？過去7個月，你剛剛說你做了這麼多的努力，我想要請問，這7個月有多了多少的移工看護？因為基本上這是供需問題嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：移工看護不是這7個月，移工看護是要到8月1日才開始進來。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你預估你過去的努力有沒有辦法消化？我剛剛的意思也是這樣，就是我剛剛再次講了，他們預估的數據是一年2到3萬人的申請需求，想要請問勞動部，以你們過去7個月的準備，你認為接下來這一年有沒有辦法提供這樣子的量能？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會全力以赴，我們相關的準備……我們會全力以赴。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，有沒有預估的數字？不能只有講「全力以赴」，我一直想要表達的就是數據在這裡，你大概有什麼辦法……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，像我們有補助衛福部照管中心的人力、包括我們部裡面審查的人力，其實這些人力補助的多跟少，我們也一直在密切地看案源的量增加多少……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，剛剛說的大概是這樣子，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：大家現在的確有各種預估，有些人預估比較高一點，有些人預估比較低一點，但從勞動部的角度，我們應該要把狀況設想成，如果人比較多，我們可以因應的話，那就相對有比較好的條件去面對人比較少的狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得是這樣，勞動部應該做好高預估、中預估、低預估，就像剛剛你說的，勞動部要嚴謹地面對……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以假設是高預估，究竟現在的量能到底可以符合你的低預估、中預估，還是現在高預估做不到，我們就要去想怎麼解決嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我要跟委員說明，的確我們現在收到的一些案子，包括來陳情的案子，比方會有一些看護的雇主代表表示，因為修法之後，所以有些看護……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，不好意思，我覺得我們不要用這種個案式的，有人來反映這個、有人來反映那個，我其實想要表達的就是量……"],["洪部長申翰：因為這是實況啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：實況就是我剛剛一直問你究竟你量能的數據……"],["洪部長申翰：這是實況，我在講的是實況。"],["廖委員偉翔：究竟你量能的數據可不可以符合嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我們會盡力。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，因為時間的關係，我知道我超過很久了，可是我還是想要告訴大家，可以看到針對我剛剛問的問題，勞動部沒有具體的數據。我知道勞動部大家都很辛苦，但是我希望務實、理性面對，所以剛剛說的都是數字，現在已經上路了，截至8月17日有1,450人申請，究竟一年推估大約多少？我剛剛也說了，業界說可能一年2到3萬，假設2到3萬好了，是中推估，以勞動部過去7個月所做的努力，你剛剛講了，你做了很多的努力，我們都沒有要抹煞，但是究竟可不可以補上一年2、3萬的缺口……"],["洪部長申翰：我們會盡力、全力以赴。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是本席重要的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會盡力、全力以赴……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是部長不能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請請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":36.482,"end":54.138,"text":"委員好 部長今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多會講同理心跟人機幾機 人力幾力今天看起來是比較氣定神閒這段時間在傳你的去留賴總統或者是左院長沒有跟你聊到這個事情"},{"start":56.584,"end":85.848,"text":"我的去留我想這個不是我可以決定如果我可以決定我就會跟您報告那第二個我在這個什麼時候去留我想來是偶然來是偶然去是必然所以我在在位的每一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我一天當作兩天在在努力所以我每天做的工作的時間其實超過八個小時"},{"start":87.649,"end":108.95,"text":"希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部的這個部長那老實講事實上在去年的6月13號那時候我就諮詢過你了那時候你在討論說你會不會是誤闖從你的小白兔可是那時候你的民調是很高啊你剛從企業來的時候我要提醒你說那時候王美花還任期了1431天希望你可以多做一點不過更重要的不是短跟"},{"start":110.188,"end":123.785,"text":"常的問題啦 是人民知道你要做什麼事情所以你如果再留下來下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你你下禮拜留下來當經濟部長你有沒有什麼事情很想做的你覺得你現在很急著要把它完成的"},{"start":129.684,"end":146.531,"text":"我們現在經濟部最重要的工作最重要的工作有兩項第一項就是在災區救災的事情第二項就是協助這個談判小組談關稅的問題還有你答應的事情 把它做完 來"},{"start":148.666,"end":170.945,"text":"你上次在這邊質詢 打詢的時候 還有你去看了一些地方 你做了一些引漏包括 你跟我說自己的新聞 製膨紙上面那個損壞的光電板的時候 你有做了一個承諾嘛你說你有把握 這個一定要清除完畢啊所以報告委員 我們你所指責的那個部分 我們都已經從水裡面把它清到上面 滷上來了"},{"start":172.71,"end":193.144,"text":"但是對就是說因為他的這個受災的這個情形還蠻嚴重的我想大家都清楚但是大家都關心他在水上是不是會造成大家水源的擔心所以我們第一優先我在講七月把它清除完他的意思就是說從水裡面把它移到路上"},{"start":194.125,"end":208.895,"text":"那我們也用最快的速度坦白講那個如果說讓廠商自己去做大概要兩個月但是我們考慮到委員的這個關心所以我們是在七天裡面就把它完成那個是我整個水利署"},{"start":210.305,"end":239.563,"text":"完全投入然后把我们水利署的公班然后来帮助他们来清除的大家都很清楚嘛就是风灾是不是一个某个区域产生了而且很大量的这个要处理事实上厂商他已经没有办法靠自己独自的能力去完成这个修复的事情所以也谢谢委员的这个关心所以我们也就是说请我们水利署的公班"},{"start":240.928,"end":269.295,"text":"甚至於這一次包括嘉義的救災都是一樣我們現在已經協調出我們整個都協調出來把那個嘉義台南高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來全部進入救災全部進入救災當然彰化也有我想這個召委這我們彰化也是一樣在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班"},{"start":270.666,"end":291.977,"text":"全部先停一下子公共工程然後所有的公班都進入災區搶救這個災民這個做法我想我們也是跟委員一樣我們都是人力極力自己感受到那個情境我想委員我們在災區也碰過好幾次我搭高鐵我們也碰了好幾次"},{"start":293.098,"end":319.824,"text":"我們都可以了解在那個時期要靠我們的受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的所以政府的態度政府的態度就是用政府的力量但是政府的工程可以稍微緩一下緩一個月緩兩個月沒有關係但是受災區我們希望受災區所有的災民能夠早一日回到平日的這樣的一個生活這一點我想"},{"start":320.984,"end":347.882,"text":"委員在關心 我想委員也很會認同我們這樣的做法最近這幾個禮拜的農曆大家有看嗎包括形象看起來都有改變了啦大家有肯定 不過我要提醒你現在人民期待不是只有從這個自動池把它繞上來人民現在期待 本來就是說你所謂的清除碗應該就放回去整個回收處理廠嘛 對不對那現在 現在碰到兩個問題部長我要跟你講 兩個非常嚴重的問題第一 有些光電板"},{"start":350.072,"end":363.631,"text":"撈上來之後放到你經濟部台廠的土地上面去了另外一個問題等一下我跟你講這個是吹哨者來檢取讓你到了當地去拍的我給你看 左下角這個左下角這張圖"},{"start":365.404,"end":387.899,"text":"你這個光電的浮板跟這個光電板放下來這在廢氣屋處理法上面是明明確確規定喔你要一個不透水的那個那個像環布啊那個鋪面要有嘛對不對你看那個都沒做啦所以這個有汙染要可能要你要把它做好了好不好然後又 抱歉抱歉我還沒說完那像右邊這些你看那個土這樣挖起來"},{"start":388.86,"end":413.772,"text":"你一些那個重型機器裡面去 那個油都漏下來所以整個污染要把它處理好 要處理得好誰啦第一 本來我都提前一年這個是 他現在應該是回到回收處理廠去處理 這專業的那沒有的話 他應該也要把它做好整個那個不要被污染 這是一個第二個 現在就是 環境部部長最近看了幾次"},{"start":415.454,"end":443.431,"text":"去看了幾次 他發現有些製紡紙 你們管的嘛這光電板是你們管的 光電是你們管的他現在放在什麼地方 不是放到台塘土地喔你看你那個製紡紙旁邊的那個道路提案就開始把它碎掉了把那個浮板就碎掉了 結果那個塑膠那個顆粒就滿天飛 滿天飄這邊你也在碎 台塘也在碎 農地受到影響然後環境部長去看那邊的農地跟道路又受到影響"},{"start":445.154,"end":472.005,"text":"這個你去規範一下吧 避免這個農地的污染好不好是 謝謝委員好 委員要講事情 我要跟您討論一下前陣子引起很大討論的這個河山場那個木林經費那個事情你後來有沒有檢討 有沒有發現出了什麼問題 為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你我是是這個樣子 我想委員你也很清楚我來當這個部長之前我是大學的教授"},{"start":473.288,"end":476.373,"text":"我是社會科學的研究者我想你也很清楚"},{"start":477.503,"end":503.143,"text":"你也写过论文我们在做民调的时候通常有一些变数关系为了要确实的去了解消费者的意愿的时候我们会把一些变数拿掉我只是说敦青牧林会是其中的一个变数但是我想因为当初他们在讲说我们整个我们恒春的乡亲有77%的人是支持的"},{"start":503.715,"end":529.17,"text":"但是我做一个科学研究者我想我们会对这样的一个命题的解读会提出说我们是不是要再研究一下真正的了解我对这个这个敦青木林废啊我认为这个是没有问题的我们台电到每一个地方去都有敦青木林废嘛我相信我我相信我们恒春的这些这些怎么讲我的"},{"start":530.231,"end":542.129,"text":"同鄉的這個...你也變成同人了我變成同人 但是我不可能...你講其他講的情色必要的話可能都要道歉因為你會不會講太快我不是道歉我這個大家的看法不太一樣"},{"start":543.328,"end":561.082,"text":"我只是就一個他的民調的上部上那個問題我在就教於這個委員但是他把我歪樓到別的地方去說我我說我們的這個屏東的這個城村的鄉民是喜歡這個東西這個是完全是"},{"start":562.793,"end":579.172,"text":"您認為這個合理嗎委員你也是社會科學的支持者吧其實民眾為什麼會罵你會那麼抗議其實你那個講法你忽略一個非常重要河山場旁邊附近的居民那四個鄉鎮他們為什麼希望河山可以嚴厲"},{"start":581.038,"end":609.191,"text":"一個跟台電的員工對 你聽我講對台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係因為你的員工台電的員工在河山場把他經營得非常好他們不只蹲進木林喔他們安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅啊所以那個居民才會覺得安全啊所以他們肯定 聽我講他們希望河山可以營利他們肯定台電這段時間的付出你知道嗎"},{"start":610.267,"end":620.065,"text":"河山厂的厂长 副厂长他们都在那边买房子结婚生子他们很多人退休都是在那边生活"},{"start":621.141,"end":648.123,"text":"他們跟居民已經融為一體了這個才是真正為什麼附近的居民希望河山可以繼續原理因為他們經歷的是安全嘛所以他們才會接受你一直在講說什麼慕尼基金那一塊你就傷了他們的心你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻我同意委員你的說法委員我同意您的說法只是說如果說我們在做這個社會科學的討論的時候"},{"start":649.892,"end":675.627,"text":"我們可以做一次測試啊可以做一次測試來做一次民調我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論不是說對這個敦俊慕林會這件事情在做討論所以那個命題不一樣結果會不一樣我想這個委員你應該可以支持我的說法要不然台電的員工他也覺得心寒或覺得說沒有被重視"},{"start":676.047,"end":700.553,"text":"他們這麼付出你經濟部長一定肯定沒有沒有沒有也要肯定河山產生不經濟力對我們經濟發展的貢獻你要考慮我們屏東人的心情喔為什麼我們屏東的人要來忍受核電廠在我屏東由這個全國的人來決定屏東人要接受這個河山的研議呢為什麼合一合二合四不研議呢保定"},{"start":701.073,"end":720.898,"text":"河山廠很安全啊 國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念你去看民調啊 否定不只是河山廠附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山廠營利你整體的民調裡面河山廠支持連個屏東人支持河山廠比例還是比較高的"},{"start":721.838,"end":746.391,"text":"你要去看民調 你不要自己以為說你現在要推動賴總統不要核酸 或者總統不要核酸欸 你就汙名化核酸連你的好朋友黃承信都講了 不要汙名化核冷核酸廠是安全的好 另外我要問你一個 你看報告委員 報告委員核酸廠是不是安全 必須要由專家來決定而不是靠民調來決定安全這個命題 絕對不能夠是用民調來決定對嘛 這個是裡面"},{"start":748.092,"end":776.875,"text":"安全必須要由專家來決定的事情你講這個就沒專家了 我跟你講我這個是非常專業的這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的這次的河山公投有提到說要投那個安全嗎安全是必要的在河管法修正的時候裡面就清楚要經過安全檢查確定以後他才可以研議這次我們要投的是要不要研議他是個必要的要不要研議總統已經講得非常的清楚"},{"start":778.287,"end":793.195,"text":"兩個必須三個原則只要符合兩個必須三個原則他就可以研議所以我就不知道說這個公投的命題而且特別為我屏東的這個核電廠去做一個公投那為什麼不一起談核一核二"},{"start":793.675,"end":814.014,"text":"何氏呢他也是在谈核电的原意如果说今天是一个确实的命题那么他应该讨论的是核电要不要原意而不是说核酸要不要原意在这个命题我的个人的观点跟我小代表的我的这个知识告诉我"},{"start":814.895,"end":843.475,"text":"正確的事情我們都支持所以您剛剛在講說那如果沒有安全那安全是大家共事 OK那我們到底要討論什麼挑問請的那麼清清楚楚沒有安全什麼可能 可能延誼啊對不對而且柏定你的問題我回答你我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員為什麼當初訂的這個是河山延誼沒有其他河山因為去年的河山剛剛大體檢過嘛它是最安全的嘛"},{"start":844.71,"end":873.387,"text":"所以我們才從核三做起啊所以我們也 保定你核三年曆823過了之後你就可以進一步去討論核二或者是核四廠要不要體檢嘛你先跨出一個最安全的核三它最新嘛 對不對統新而且它去年你花了那麼多錢它剛大稅休完它又是最安全的保定 現在喔現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察我們也確認它是安全的它的那個十四除人潮"},{"start":874.622,"end":902.445,"text":"就是這個燃料棒用完之後出來它又可以用四年喔目前最安全的就是核酸嘛所以先從核酸做起嘛我想不能夠救我來 你看一下核廢料問題來 保定化加特的核廢料核廢料 上一張你一直在講這個三原則安全 全世界在用核電的那麼多國家哪一個國家不認為安全要不然他怎麼敢用"},{"start":903.379,"end":919.869,"text":"核廢料的處理核廢料美國有問題嗎美國的AID處長還跟你講不只是技術設備連核廢料他都可以幫忙處理全世界現在核廢料有任何地方有問題嗎現在台灣的核一廠 核二廠 核三廠核廢料現在可能"},{"start":924.517,"end":952.139,"text":"它在核一核二都在這個這個它廠區裡面啊對嘛全世界也是這樣嘛全世界有哪一個人跟你哪一個國家跟你講說它核廢料有問題沒有啊沒有沒有沒有沒有啊那個委員我跟您報告日本日本的這個地形跟我們是差不多的日本有很多已經停的這個核電廠到現在都沒有重啟"},{"start":953.857,"end":981.631,"text":"那你認為他為什麼沒有重啟我想還是一樣我們要由專家來考慮他的安全問題嘛你知不知道民進黨昨天做了一個做了一個發文被那個日本打臉嗎就是你剛講的那個日本的記者是打臉你民進黨啊昨天竟然說核電重啟不是國際歧視他引用的就是你剛講引用日本結果一部分的媒體馬上出來打臉他他講了這段話我講給你聽"},{"start":983.595,"end":1012.241,"text":"他說你民進黨怎麼可以講說我們日本什麼自賀二號機敦賀二號機這些重啟有困難日本的電器新聞直接打臉他說沒有啊 什麼自賀二號機地震前跟後 日本的科學的評估都是一致根本沒有問題 更重要的日本政府已經提出了2025年的他們能源基本計畫裡面明定第一個 他們要拖碳 就是減碳"},{"start":1013.356,"end":1022.59,"text":"第二個為了電力的需求所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能這個核能現在是日本的能源主軸"},{"start":1024.264,"end":1051.257,"text":"日本昨天打臉了民進黨結果你今天臉都臭了又被打了沒有 報告委員我們在討論的你就是很容易把他shift到別的地方去啊但是因為你講的跟昨天民進黨一樣人家很清楚跟你講日本 你要講日本啊日本就是他們認為安全啊來 我給你看來 保定來看下一張保定 日本目前保定 你這樣講我們日本總有歸宿歸宿還沒有恢復嘛你這樣實在很好啊來來來 保定你看來來來 保定看"},{"start":1053.157,"end":1075.131,"text":"日本目前有33座核電的基礎到2024年11月他有7座電廠的13個反應爐本來是3個有6座對不對日本現在已經有恢復了7座電廠13座反應爐在運轉了他們的目標是後面這個更重要他們一直在增加2023年要恢復到20"},{"start":1077.625,"end":1087.17,"text":"所以日本不是你講的不然日本人很重視安全啊啊你一講說日本沒有恢復所以日本人家出來抗議我沒有講說日本沒有恢復那委員你又再斷章取義囉"},{"start":1088.885,"end":1109.373,"text":"又在斷章取義我沒有講這句話我是講說日本也有沒有還沒恢復的這個電廠他說扛聖的問題就是安全的問題嘛是啊你也是同意是安全的問題啊是不是這樣但是我的意思是說安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛"},{"start":1110.353,"end":1139.491,"text":"安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛對不對譬如說我們如果有一台車這台車載40噸啊大家也認為說40噸還可以開啊問題是不是我們兩個掛電說它可以開就可以開嘛一定要電機技師所有的這個專家來決定說它可以開對啊所以要你們所以這個問題就是不是用公投就可以來決定說它是不是要重啟啊這個安全的責任政府就要負啊"},{"start":1140.529,"end":1153.181,"text":"所以 安全不是這次公投的題目你要投的是要不要研議那政府本來在核管法在這次公投的條文裡面就是我們在講過了 總統也講過非常清楚前世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候會重啟核電你都要說40年有沒有研究美國啊"},{"start":1165.011,"end":1168.018,"text":"美國現在有94座的核電機組其中89座都是超過40年"},{"start":1174.216,"end":1191.127,"text":"40年當然是安全的啦所以所以剛剛人家講的日本有些人超過40年他經過安全測試之後 確定安全他就用了嘛美國也是一樣嘛所以來來 我跟你講我也是在講抱歉 可能要快一點那個等一下民進黨立委說我站太多時間我今天給你很多時間講法"},{"start":1204.396,"end":1232.152,"text":"我剛才在講 保定我們的台電是很優秀的我們合一廠 合二廠 合三廠在國際評比我們的車都保養得很好都是名列前茅 對自己有信心而且我們機器跟技術都是美國來的安全的問題一定要專家講保定你想要對自己這麼沒有信心我剛才在講 黃岑欣說你們不要汙染核電安全的問題一定要專家鑑定安全的問題一定要專家鑑定不能靠民眾大家的意識來決定他是不是可以做"},{"start":1232.572,"end":1255.109,"text":"你這樣是完全不尊重民意 不然你怎麼這樣說民意是 民意的部分我們一定尊重對啊 你剛才說不是友好人來學沒有安全的事情為什麼要公投 這是一個全民意志的展現嘛就你在講三條件的共識嘛你當然要尊重民意啦 好啦我知道我時間再拖下去不行了那個主席都已經 大家看完我告訴你 馬上823就要公投了 大後天啦"},{"start":1256.61,"end":1282.955,"text":"我們現在結議文跟提案文裡面都清楚講它是一個便宜的店穩定的店 乾淨的店我也很希望就是說823如果通過了這個門檻之後你本來就依法要做嘛希望你如果留下來好好去推動整個河山廠可是我告訴你河山廠是最新的去年底剛剛提醒過請好好去做事讓河山廠可以趕快研立 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時28分）先請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多，會講同理心跟「人飢己飢，人溺己溺」了，今天看起來是比較氣定神閒。這段時間在傳你的去留，賴總統或卓院長有沒有跟你聊到這件事情？"],["郭部長智輝：我的去留不是我可以決定的，如果我可以決定，我就會跟您報告。第二個，我什麼時候去留？我想來是偶然，去是必然，所以我在位的每一天，我就是全力以赴。我之前也講過，我一天當成兩天在努力，所以我每天工作時間超過8個小時。"],["張委員啓楷：很好，希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部部長。老實講，在去年6月13日我就質詢過你了，那時候在討論你會不會是誤闖叢林的小白兔，可是那時候你的民調很高，你剛從企業來的時候，我還提醒你說，王美花的任期是1,431天，希望你可以多做一點。不過最重要的不是短或長的問題，而是人民知道你要做什麼事情。所以你如果再留下來，下個禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你，如果你留下來當經濟部長，有沒有什麼事情是你很想做的，是你現在很急著想要把它完成的？你剛剛在講災後的復原跟重建嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在經濟部最重要的工作有兩項，第一項就是在災區救災的事情，第二項就是協助談判小組談關稅的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，還有你答應的事情要把它做完，你上次在這邊答詢的時候，你去看的一些地方，也做了一些允諾，包括嘉義新塭的滯洪池上面損壞的光電板，你有做了一個承諾，你說你有把握7月底清除完畢，現在……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你所指責的那個部分，我們都已經把它從水裡面清到路上來了，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：這樣不夠啦！"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為它的受災情形還滿嚴重的，我想大家都清楚，但是大家都擔心它在水上是不是會造成水源的污染，所以我們第一優先，我在講7月把它清除完畢，意思就是從水裡面把它移到路上。我們也用最快的速度，坦白講，如果讓廠商自己去做，大概要兩個月，但是我們考慮到委員的關心，所以我們是在7天內把它完成，那個是整個水利署完全投入，甚至水利署的工班還去幫他們清除，大家都很清楚，風災不是只是某個區域產生大量的廢棄物要處理，事實上廠商已經沒有辦法靠自己獨自的能力去完成修復的事情。也謝謝委員的關心，所以我們請水利署的工班，甚至這一次包括嘉義的救災，都是一樣，我們現在已經整個都協調出來，讓嘉義、臺南、高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來，全部進入救災，當然彰化也有，彰化也是一樣，在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班，全部的公共工程都先停下了，所有的工班都進入災區搶救災民。這個作法，我們也是跟委員一樣，我們都是人溺己溺，自己感受到那個情境。委員，我們在災區也碰過好幾次，我搭高鐵，我們也碰了好幾次，我們都可以了解在那個moment、在那個時期，要靠受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的，所以政府的態度就是用政府的力量，政府的工程可以稍微緩一下，緩一個月、緩兩個月沒有關係，但是我們希望受災區所有的災民都能夠早日回到平日的生活。這一點，既然委員在關心，我想委員也會認同我們這樣的作法。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，最近你這一、兩個禮拜的努力，我們都有看到，包括形象看起來都有改變，大家有肯定。不過我要提醒你，人民期待的不是只有從滯洪池把它撈上來，人民現在期待的是，本來以為你所謂的清除完，應該就是整個放回去回收處理廠，對不對？但現在碰到兩個問題，部長，我要跟你講，有兩個非常嚴重的問題，第一個，有些光電板撈上來之後，放到經濟部所屬台糖的土地上面去了，另外一個問題我等一下再跟你講。這個是吹哨者來檢舉的，是他們到當地去拍的，部長，你看左下角這張圖，這些光電板放下來後，這在廢棄物處理法上有明明確確的規定，你要用一個不透水帆布覆蓋，那個鋪面要有嘛，對不對？你看那個都沒做，這會有污染，你要把它做好。像右邊這些，你看那個土這樣挖起來，一些重型機具到裡面去，油都漏下來了，所以整個污染要把它處理好。此外，我要再提醒部長，它現在應該是回到回收處理廠去做專業的處理，既使沒有，也應該要做好阻隔，讓它不要被污染，這是一個。","第二個，環境部部長先去看了幾次，光電板是你們管的，現在不是放在台糖土地，而是直接放在滯洪池旁邊的道路、堤岸就開始把浮板碎掉了，結果塑膠顆粒就滿天飛、滿天飄，這邊在碎，台糖也在碎，農地受到影響，然後環境部長去看，發現那邊的農地跟道路都受到影響，這個你去規範一下，避免農地污染，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，還有一件事情，我要跟你討論一下。前陣子引起很大討論的核三廠睦鄰經費，你後來有沒有檢討、有沒有發現出了什麼問題？為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你？"],["郭部長智輝：我想委員也很清楚，我來當部長之前是大學教授，我是社會科學的研究者。我想你也很清楚，你也寫過論文，我們在做民調的時候通常有一些變數關係，為了要確實了解消費者的意願，會把一些變數拿掉。我只是說敦親睦鄰費是其中的一個變數，因為當初他們說恆春的鄉親有77%的人是支持的，但是我作為一個科學研究者，我們對這樣的命題解讀會提出是不是要再研究一下、真正的了解。我認為敦親睦鄰費是沒有問題的，台電到每一個地方都有敦親睦鄰費，我相信這些我恆春的同鄉……"],["張委員啓楷：你也是屏東人。"],["郭部長智輝：我是屏東人，但是我不可能……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你跟鄉親要講清楚，必要的話，可能都得道歉，因為你會不會講太快？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，不是道歉，大家的看法不太一樣，我只是就一個民調的問題就教於委員，但是他把我歪樓到別的地方說，我說屏東恆春的鄉民喜歡敦親睦鄰費，這個是完全……你認為這個合理嗎？委員，你也是社會科學的支持者吧？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，民眾為什麼會罵你、會抗議？其實你那個講法忽略一個非常重要的，核三廠附近四個鄉鎮的居民為什麼希望核三可以延役？跟台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係，因為台電員工把核三廠經營得非常好，他們不只敦親睦鄰，它的安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅，所以居民才會覺得安全，所以他們是肯定。"],["郭部長智輝：因為……"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我講，他們希望核三可以延役，是肯定台電這段時間的付出。你知道嗎？核三廠的廠長、副廠長都在那邊買房子、結婚生子，他們很多人退休都是繼續在那邊生活，他們跟居民已經融為一體了，這個才是附近居民真正希望核三可以繼續延役的原因，因為他們經歷的是安全，所以才會接受。你卻一直在說睦鄰基金那一塊，就傷了他們的心，你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出，還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻？核三廠對整個經濟成長……"],["郭部長智輝：我同意委員的說法，只是如果我們在做社會科學討論的時候，可以做一次測試、做一次民調，我只是就……"],["張委員啓楷：你把更重要的變數拿掉了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論，不是對敦親睦鄰費這一件事情討論，所以那個命題不一樣，結果會不一樣，我想委員應該可以支持我的說法吧？"],["張委員啓楷：我現在是提醒你，你要肯定台電的員工，否則他們會覺得心寒或沒有被重視。他們這麼付出，經濟部長要肯定台電員工的付出，也要肯定核三廠跟附近居民對於經濟發展的貢獻。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有！你要考慮屏東人的心情，為什麼屏東人要忍受核電廠設在屏東？為什麼由全國的人來決定，屏東人要接受核三延役呢？為什麼核一、核二、核四不延役呢？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，核三廠很安全，是國際模範生。為什麼你會有個概念……你去看民調啊！"],["郭部長智輝：您的意思就是核四是不安全的。"],["張委員啓楷：不只是核三廠附近四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求核三要延役，整體民調也顯示，屏東人支持核三廠的比例還是比較高的，你要去看民調。你不要自己以為要推動賴總統不要核三或者卓榮泰不要核三，就污名化核三，連你的好朋友黃仁勳都講了，不要污名化核能。核三廠是安全的！另外，我要問你，你剛剛講的那個變數……"],["郭部長智輝：核三廠是不是安全必須要由專家來決定，而不是靠民調來決定，安全這個命題絕對不能夠用民調來決定。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：安全是必須要由專家來決定的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：你說這個就不專業了，我跟你講。"],["郭部長智輝：我提這個是非常專業的。"],["張委員啓楷：這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的，這次核三公投有提到要投安全嗎？安全是必要的，在核管法修正的時候就清楚規定，要經過安全檢查確定以後，才可以延役，這次我們要投的是要不要延役。它是必要的……"],["郭部長智輝：有關要不要延役，總統已經講得非常的清楚，有兩個必須、三個原則，只要符合兩個必須、三個原則就可以延役，所以我就不知道這個公投的命題……而且特別為屏東的核電廠公投，為什麼不一起談核一、核二、核四呢？這也是在談核電的延役。如果今天是一個確實的命題，那麼應該討論的是核電要不要延役，而不是核三要不要延役。對這個命題，我個人的觀點跟我的知識告訴我，正確的事情我們都支持，所以您剛剛說安全，安全是大家共識，OK！那我們到底要討論什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：這是政府的責任！條文寫得清清楚楚，沒有安全怎麼可能延役，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，那……"],["張委員啓楷：我回答部長的問題，我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員，為什麼當初訂的是核三延役，沒有其他的？因為去年核三剛剛大體檢過，它是最安全的，所以我們才從核三做起。823核三延役公投過了之後，你就可以進一步討論核二或者核四廠要不要體檢，你先跨出一個最安全的。核三最新，對不對？最新而且去年花了那麼多錢、剛大歲修完，它又是最安全的。部長，現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察，我們也確認它是安全的，它的濕式儲能槽在核燃料棒用完之後取出來，又可以用4年，目前最安全的就是核三，所以先從核三做起。"],["郭部長智輝：我想不能夠就某一個……"],["張委員啓楷：你看一下核廢料問題，我跟你討論核廢料。你一直在講三原則──安全，全世界那麼多國家在用核電，哪一個國家不認為安全，要不然怎麼敢用？核廢料的處理，美國有問題嗎？美國AIT處長還跟你講，不只是技術、設備，連核廢料，他都可以幫忙處理。全世界現在有任何地方的核廢料有問題嗎？我問你，現在臺灣核一廠、核二廠、核三廠的核廢料放在哪裡？"],["郭部長智輝：核一、核二都在廠區裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！全世界也是這樣，全世界有哪一個國家跟你說他的核廢料有問題？沒有啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有、沒有、沒有！日本的地形跟我們是差不多的，日本有很多已經停止運轉的核電廠到現在都沒有重啟，您認為為什麼沒有重啟？我想還是一樣，我們要由專家來考慮它的安全問題，是不是？"],["張委員啓楷：你知道民進黨昨天發了一個文被日本打臉嗎？就是你剛剛講的，日本記者也是打臉你。昨天民進黨竟然說核電重啟不是國際趨勢，引用的就是你剛剛講的日本，結果日本的媒體馬上出來打臉。他講了這段話，我講給你聽，他說民進黨怎麼可以說日本志賀2號機、敦賀2號機等重啟有困難？日本電氣新聞直接打臉，他說沒有啊！志賀2號機地震前跟後，日本的科學評估都是一致的，根本沒有問題。更重要的，日本政府已經提出的2025年能源基本計畫裡面明定，第一個，他們要脫碳，就是減碳；第二個，為了電力的需求，所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能。核能現在是日本的能源主軸，日本昨天打臉了民進黨，結果你今天臉又湊回來又被打了……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，部長，我跟你說，來，我給你看一下……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們在討論的，你就是很容易把它shift到別的地方去，是不是？"],["張委員啓楷：就是因為你講的跟昨天的民進黨一樣……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有啊，沒有、沒有、沒有，不一樣……"],["張委員啓楷：人家很清楚的跟你講，日本……"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才在講的……"],["張委員啓楷：他講日本，日本就是他們認為安全啊。部長，我給你看下一張。"],["郭部長智輝：不能這樣講，委員，你這樣……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，日本目前……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你這樣講，日本總共有幾座，有幾座還沒恢復嘛，你這邊寫得很好啊……"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，部長你看。日本目前有33座核電機組，到2024年11月共有7個電廠13座反應爐在運轉，像我們本來是3個核電廠有6座反應爐，對不對？日本現在已經恢復運轉的有7個電廠13座反應爐，後面這個更重要，他們還一直在增加耶，日本政府的目標是2030年核能占比要恢復到20%。所以日本不是你講的，日本人很重視安全啊，你一直講說日本沒有恢復，所以人家日本出來抗議，打臉民進黨就是打臉你啊。"],["郭部長智輝：不、不、不、不，我沒有講說日本沒有恢復，委員，你又在斷章取義了喔。又在斷章取義，我沒有講這句話。我是講說日本也有還沒有恢復的電廠，他所concern的問題就是安全的問題嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，他會每一個，就跟我們每個電廠……"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！你也同意是安全的問題，不是這樣嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：對，但是人家檢討過以後就安全了。"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是說，安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛，安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛，對不對？譬如說我們有一輛車，這輛車開了40年了，大家也認為開了40年還可以再繼續開，問題是，不是我們兩個決定說它可以開就可以開嘛，一定要包括電機技師等，所有的專家來決定說它可以開。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，所以要你們在核管法……"],["郭部長智輝：對啊。所以這個問題……"],["張委員啓楷：這個公投裡面就是明定……"],["郭部長智輝：不是用公投就可以來決定，它是不是要重啟。"],["張委員啓楷：我們核安會跟台電都要去檢驗，確定它是安全的嘛。這個安全的責任政府就要負啊，所以安全不是這次公投的題目……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們……"],["張委員啓楷：公投的題目是要不要延役，那政府本來在核管法，在這次公投的條文裡面，你就是有責任要注意到他的安全……"],["郭部長智輝：我們之前講過了，總統也講得非常清楚兩個必須、三個原則……"],["張委員啓楷：全世界，部長，我跟你講一下，全世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候重啟核電？","來，部長，我給你看一下，你剛才說用40年後還能不能延用，美國現在有94座的核電機組，其中89座都是超過40年的，40年當然是安全的，所以剛剛你在講的日本，有些也是超過40年，他經過安全測試之後，確定安全他就用了，美國也是一樣。所以，部長，你說。"],["郭部長智輝：我可以說嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，可能要快一點，等一下民進黨立委說我占用太多時間。"],["郭部長智輝：委員，委員，譬如說……"],["張委員啓楷：我已經給你很多時間講了。"],["郭部長智輝：有一輛美國車開了40年，就算你開的美國車跟我開的美國車是同樣的品牌，但是開車的是不一樣的人，你覺得40年後，那輛車的condition是都一樣的嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，我剛才就跟你說了，部長，我們的台電是很優秀的。我們的核一廠、核二廠、核三廠在國際上的評比，我們的車都保養得很好耶，都是名列前茅，你要對自己有信心。而且我們的機器……"],["郭部長智輝：這個不能自己講啦！安全的問題……"],["張委員啓楷：我們的機器跟技術都是美國來的。"],["郭部長智輝：安全的問題一定要專家講啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你為什麼對自己這麼沒有信心？我剛才說的，黃仁勳說你們不要污染核電……"],["郭部長智輝：不是信心的問題，安全的問題一定要專家鑑定……"],["張委員啓楷：你還一直在污名化，怎麼對自己沒有信心？"],["郭部長智輝：安全的問題一定要專家鑑定……"],["張委員啓楷：你是經濟部長……"],["郭部長智輝：不能靠民眾大家的意志來決定他是不是可以做。"],["張委員啓楷：欸，你這樣是完全不尊重民意耶，部長，你怎麼可以這樣講？"],["郭部長智輝：民意的部分我們一定尊重，但是我的意思……"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你剛才還說不是由他們來決定。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，安全的事情……"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼要公投？這是全民意志的展現嘛，就你們在講三條件的共識嘛，你當然要尊重民意啦！","好啦，我知道我的時間再拖下去不行了，主席都已經在我看了。","部長，馬上823大後天就要公投了，我們現在決議文跟提案文裡面都清楚地講，核電是便宜的電、穩定的電、乾淨的電，我也很希望就是823如果通過了這個門檻之後，你本來就依法要做嘛，你如果留下來，希望你好好去推動整個核三廠，就像我剛才說的……"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的立場就是依法行事。"],["張委員啓楷：核三廠是最新的，去年底剛剛體檢過，請好好去落實讓核三廠可以趕快延役。謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席：現在請鄭天財委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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蘇委員請好我今天生理有夠慢的謝謝主席那我們請部長蘇委員早部長辛苦了齁"},{"start":26.8,"end":53.876,"text":"來 我三個問題第一個就是我們這個就會附法46條就是這個外籍看護的問題這個原有是怎麼來早上陳慶威 陳昭志委員都有提那我跟大家報告這個是2024年選總統的時候活有餘提出來的證件那這個這一個案子的起草人是誰就是我"},{"start":56.419,"end":60.166,"text":"為什麼那個時候會停因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾"},{"start":61.499,"end":85.358,"text":"非常非常痛苦,因為廠長就是為了開個巴士輛票,包括我,廠長都要拜託,經常糾紛,我說覺得這不是必要,那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾,也有衝突過,甚至有動手的,所以那個時候就提出來,提出來之後大家都很贊成,"},{"start":87.54,"end":114.625,"text":"那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過"},{"start":115.669,"end":131.169,"text":"是不是 我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後可能不要我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦 這個是人性啦"},{"start":132.202,"end":154.397,"text":"我們我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方囉"},{"start":157.324,"end":180.043,"text":"實際上鄉村很需要人但是他就跟你說 他們也有一個協會他就說你家長得不舒服 院長對他不好等等他可以轉 真的是可以轉 他也轉成了所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利外籍的看護也好 外籍勞工也好他要申請轉換"},{"start":182.114,"end":193.846,"text":"這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法以後才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由啦"},{"start":199.594,"end":220.611,"text":"第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的來看負來apply你才可以開始排隊我們沒有加 這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的這是原本就有的 這不是增加的"},{"start":220.891,"end":241.293,"text":"我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來申請對不對 你預估啦就是健康的 亞健康的我跟你說 我說"},{"start":242.779,"end":270.998,"text":"好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個啊你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛"},{"start":272.805,"end":295.178,"text":"製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛 對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少"},{"start":297.27,"end":318.911,"text":"也沒有公司 目前是兩萬塊以上多少 兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔 太少了啦我跟妳報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲 那個孫子那個外籍的看護我都覺得表現得很好我是給他基本工資的"},{"start":320.066,"end":335.48,"text":"我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位可能請他四小時七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得對不對我對你知不知道"},{"start":340.29,"end":367.375,"text":"對 但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以我要跟你報告就是說委員這些外籍的看護19萬多 20萬多 21萬多這些人來台灣我感覺我們要把他們聽清楚啦當然我們要把他們聽明明啦當然你有搞好安定會你又搞什麼讓他們管吃管住你給他2萬塊"},{"start":369.193,"end":382.326,"text":"我也覺得很少 因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊 但是日本 韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護 外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛 是不是這樣 部長你知不知道"},{"start":386.121,"end":398.848,"text":"他們的價格 他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對 他們給到差不多4萬1啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶 搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎"},{"start":408.328,"end":435.748,"text":"的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少每個月是兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎"},{"start":437.659,"end":463.947,"text":"那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛才講的這整體的這個我想外籍康護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說"},{"start":464.927,"end":487.555,"text":"其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶對 畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上"},{"start":492.819,"end":511.973,"text":"那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告"},{"start":513.243,"end":533.537,"text":"我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,還有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,還有很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。"},{"start":534.969,"end":543.899,"text":"所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率滿高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是"},{"start":547.28,"end":570.615,"text":"請不上欠人只不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的"},{"start":571.115,"end":587.522,"text":"但這裡面確實也要思考到台灣母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些"},{"start":588.382,"end":612.252,"text":"那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的這器重 可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標 不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想的很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣"},{"start":613.112,"end":641.387,"text":"我們要把這個可能的挑戰再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的照護員能夠充足啦但是我們本國照護員要求是"},{"start":642.307,"end":671.256,"text":"越來越高他也很會挑案子他也很會挑所以本國的照顧人員也很會挑他們的大夫很高他現在剩下點錢的事務都不錯我們衛務部我們次長在那邊他們現在一直在調高也希望我們這邊能充裕 對不對所以我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人老的照顧比較老的自己可以接受是最好"},{"start":672.216,"end":689.785,"text":"國務理事長請國外 你就要去跟他們拚所以這是你們的套路你們的任務 你們的MISSION所以你要拯救人 我們絕對支持要拯救一百多個 八百多個 我都要支持絕對要支持到底 這樣好不好謝謝委員支持好 謝謝蘇星文的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時19分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員早。"],["蘇委員清泉：早，部長辛苦了。我有三個問題，第一個是有關就業服務法第四十六條，就是外籍看護的問題，這個緣由是怎麼來的，早上陳菁徽、陳昭姿委員都有提，我跟大家報告，這個是2024年選總統的時候，侯友宜提出來的政見。這一個案子的起草案人是誰？就是我，為什麼那個時候會提呢？因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾，非常非常痛苦，常常就是為了開個巴氏量表，包括我，常常都被拜託，常常有糾紛，有時候會覺得有這個必要嗎？造成很多臨床醫師的困擾，也有衝突過，甚至有動手的，所以那個時候就提出來，提出來後大家都很贊成，在去年年底就通過了，現在這個案子也已經公告實施了。這個法我覺得是OK的。第二個問題是，這些外籍的看護來臺灣之後，他們會挑軟的，重症的他不願意去顧，我們會怕這個嘛！是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：委員不要說挑軟的啦！其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對比較容易，然後……我覺得不要說挑軟的啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦！這個是人性啦！我講一個，我們醫界的公費生，包括醫師、藥師，這些人在服務的時候，他們被派到偏遠地區服務第二階段的，譬如去到部立恆春醫院，他們去了半年，甚至一年，他們就可以申請轉換地方。實際上恆春很需要人，但是他就跟你說，他們也有一個協會，他就說在那裡住得不舒服、院長對他不好等等，所以他可以轉，真的可以轉，他也轉成了，所以他們能轉換是他們的權利啦啊！外籍看護也好，外籍勞工也好，他要申請轉換，這個是他們本來就有的權利，不是這個修法之後才有的，所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是，換雇主不是修這個法以後才可以換雇主，本來他就可以換，所以這不是理由啦！","第三，修法過了之後，你們的門檻也加了很多，譬如要先上網登記，一個禮拜之後沒有本國看護來apply，你才可以開始排隊……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們沒有加，這不是增加的門檻，這是原本就有的。"],["蘇委員清泉：原本就有？"],["洪部長申翰：這是原本就有的，這不是增加的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我在上次也有跟你質詢過，你們擔心80歲以上就可以直接申請外籍看護，你們怕說會有10萬人來apply，對不對？你的預估啦！"],["洪部長申翰：就是健康的、亞健康的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有跟你說，好手好腳的人無緣無故要請一個外籍看護來陪他，他是瘋了嗎？那不便宜耶！不便宜耶！現在大家也不是很好過。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，但是真的有這樣的案例啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：幾個？到現在才一千多個，我們再看半年會有多少人，我可以跟你保證。最後我要跟你報告的就是，外籍的勞工來臺灣做營建業或其他行業的現有七、八十萬人嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：製造業，就是整體的外籍移工加起來是這個數字。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資，對不對？所以他們一個月可以領到3萬塊，如果再加班就有3萬、4萬了，所以那部分他們的收入還不錯，但是外籍看護的薪水多少？也沒有工時……"],["洪部長申翰：目前是兩萬塊以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：多少？一、兩萬？"],["洪部長申翰：兩萬塊或兩萬出頭。"],["蘇委員清泉：兩萬初而已，太少了啦！我跟你報告，我爸爸、媽媽都有請外籍看護，當時九十幾歲，我都覺得外籍看護的表現很好，我給他基本工資將近3萬塊，所以他很高興，這就是大家互相，所以他照顧得很認真，我如果請臺灣的看護顧24小時，一個月可能7萬塊都找不到人，對不對？部長，你知不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是委員，你要考慮一下，可能要更多面向的……"],["蘇委員清泉：所以我要跟你報告的就是，這些十九萬多、二十萬多、二十一萬多的外籍看護來到臺灣，我覺得我們要疼惜人家。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們對人家要「疼命命」。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：你有繳交就業安定費還管吃、管住，你給他2萬塊，我也覺得很少，因為日本就給4萬塊，韓國也給4萬塊，但是查一下日本、韓國，他們沒有在分什麼外籍看護、外籍勞工，他們好像打死都是一個價，是不是這樣？部長，你知不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：他們薪資的價格的確是比我們高，尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，他們給到差不多四萬一。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：比我們多，所以我們搶不贏人家，所以你會覺得現在外籍看護一個月薪水太低嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：的確，很多來源母國也跟我們反映，希望能夠把外籍看護薪資的下限再提高，很多來源母國也跟我們反映有這個期待。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以現在請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右，就業安定費繳多少？3,000塊？"],["洪部長申翰：每個月是2,000。"],["蘇委員清泉：2,000，那一般勞工也是2,000嗎？那就是二萬二，然後管吃管住，加起來差不多三萬多？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢免繳的也不少啦，經濟弱勢免繳的有1.2萬。但是就像委員剛才講的，整體的外籍看護制度，當然我們也持續在觀察，包括部裡面也在討論怎麼精進。就像我剛才說，其實來源母國也一直有跟我反映，希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升。但的確這裡面我們也在思考，比方現在會有蠻多可能是比較弱勢的家庭，他如果要請或者是他的經濟收入比較沒有那麼好，可能沒有像委員這樣啦，委員，你畢竟……"],["蘇委員清泉：我是自強戶。"],["洪部長申翰：對、對、對，畢竟像你的經濟水平，我們都跟不上……"],["蘇委員清泉：不、不，我是剛脫貧……"],["洪部長申翰：也會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好，但他們也是需要外籍看護，所以我們是綜合評估考慮，可是的確我們會持續滾動思考這些事情。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這要跟國際競爭啦，來源國就是這幾個國家，但是我跟你報告，菲律賓人口1億，在外面不管是看護或者勞工有一千多萬人；印尼有三億三的人口，也有很多人在外面；印度14億人口，在外面當外籍勞工的有將近4,000萬人，所以那是很龐大的來源。我有查了一下，像印尼那邊現在失業率蠻高，他們要出來的人還不少，所以應該不會請不到人，只不過是我們的薪水對外籍看護沒有競爭力才請不到人，會不會？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我們其實從1月開始以後就跟我們的來源母國在協商，希望他們引進的數量可以再提高，所以增加引進的供給量這件事情是我們一直在做的。但這裡面確實也要思考到來源母國的一些……因為你要進來做外籍看護有一定的訓練能量，我們也不希望影響到品質，這個我們一直在做。但就像委員說的，的確我們在臺灣請外籍看護的薪資跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些，我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的棄重擇輕，可是我要跟委員說明，我們並不是把棄重擇輕當成是目標，不是！而是我們作為一個行政部門，可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊將它思考進來，然後為可能的衝擊做因應的準備，所以我們沒有辦法想得很樂觀，認為人一定會很少還是怎樣，我們要把可能的挑戰再多想一些。如果我有條件，對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現來因應的時候，如果人數比較少的話，我也相對比較有充裕的條件。作為行政部門不能只想簡單的，我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況，這是我們的責任。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們當然希望本國的照服員能夠充足，但是我們對本國照服員的要求越來越高。他們其實也很會挑case，本國照服人員待遇很高，但也很會挑案，他們現在以小時計算，給付都不錯，衛福部次長在那邊，他們現在一直在調高，也希望我們這邊能充裕，對不對？所以我們臺灣可以自己照顧老人，老的照顧更老的，自己可以接起來是最好啦，如果萬不得已請國外的，你就要去跟人家拚，這是你們的工作、你們的任務、你們的mission，所以你要增加人，我們絕對支持啦，要增加一百多個、一百八十個等等，我們都支持，絕對支持到底，這樣好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言，謝謝洪部長的答詢。","下一位請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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請郭部長"},{"start":19.878,"end":33.322,"text":"部長 災情非常慘重 下去南部10趟這不是重點 重點要解決問題那首先 本席要先請教部長就是在7月6號當那是颱風過境跟7月28號的豪大雨"},{"start":36.883,"end":57.811,"text":"我們台電的電線桿將近有3500支被吹倒了所以台電人員非常的辛苦我們非常的不捨但是在7月15號在嘉義的役族發生了搶修的公安意外最後他是被電擊而離世了所以在這一點我們來討論一下這個質案的問題"},{"start":60.872,"end":84.149,"text":"那最重要的時候他們一定是電線都在地上那他們要上去的時候一定是安全措施都要完備才會升上去做修復在修復過程中怎麼修復的話台電的員工一定會注意到個人本身的安全但是有一個非常重要的就是有沒有斷電"},{"start":88.189,"end":99.345,"text":"他會觸電就已經壞那個整個電線桿倒塌都沒有電了為什麼會觸電所以你們整個職安公安的這個報告出來了沒有他是觸電"},{"start":101.466,"end":125.224,"text":"所以你們修好的時候一定要通報通報你們之後你們才可以把它通電送電是不是這樣子那所以也發生了一件事情嘉義那邊的那個豬舍裡面也是他還沒修好那個電線在地上還在這個淹水地方的電線在地上你們送電了整個豬都被電死了所以你們公安是怎麼做的"},{"start":127.51,"end":146.269,"text":"這個SOP是很重要的從2022年到現在就有15位我們台電員工因為這個問題而離世我們非常不捨這個一再的檢討你們報告出來檢討就要把這個公安做好來為什麼沒有做到請副總說"},{"start":148.84,"end":175.623,"text":"是 剛剛委員其實有提到其實所有的公安 其實所有的事故都就會檢討那很多確實都是沒有按照標準程序我一直在強調不管是部長下南部幾趟或者你們一再的檢討檢討要有結果啊你們所有的公安職安的SOP的過程怎麼做的 都要通報啊都要有安全的措施設置才會升上去的啊"},{"start":176.748,"end":201.665,"text":"所以為什麼會被電擊你在修理的時候就是沒有電嘛修好通報你才可以送電嘛跟委員報告因為修復的電廠其實台電有可能是沒電但是附近有可能有一些自備的發電機他有可能會逆送電所以我們在SOP裡面才要求所有的員工在做這個現場的修復的時候必須要先減電我不是要責難你們我是不捨離世的員工好不好所以"},{"start":205.188,"end":212.859,"text":"這次的檢討一定要把這SOP在我們教育訓練裡面一定要完備所有怎麼樣通報 斷電 送電這是最關鍵的問題 好嗎好 接下來我想請教"},{"start":219.096,"end":244.268,"text":"不涨的还是台风的问题也是因为丹纳斯的状况在我们的太阳能板这是台风的强风跟豪雨的关系屋顶 农地 余温这整个太阳能板在全台被吹垮的大概有14.5万片的太阳能板受损总重量有2800公吨"},{"start":245.268,"end":270.067,"text":"在發生在嘉義跟台南卓院長特別講說在8月19號環境部在8月19號整理出來那部長院長都有講到說在8月16號有講說要好好的來檢討評估一下這整個太陽能板的這個整個規範那我們有在檢討嗎檢討什麼時候會出來是報告委員我們都有在檢討檢討什麼時候出來"},{"start":276.823,"end":277.366,"text":"所有的應該是"},{"start":279.417,"end":306.597,"text":"我是不是請那個能源署跟你報那我主要要提的就是說自社會被吹垮這麼多就是因為我們這個整個耐震 耐風的這個耐風的這個能力這個結構都是用計時來做決定各區域去做決定的沒有統一的標準那是不是未來要統一的標準還是說有統一的規範不要說全部推給這個計時工會啊"},{"start":308.138,"end":331.555,"text":"是不是是 報告委員我想這一部分我們跟環境部這個彭部長都有在進行討論我們要進行一次全國的總體檢就像您剛剛所指定的我們在總體檢中我們就要跟人家講一下加固怎麼樣固定這個有時候搖晃的或者是太細的或太要加粗的這個固定的部分有在做總體檢嗎我們現在會"},{"start":334.057,"end":359.672,"text":"開始 因為這個要跨部門要快 颱風發生的時間就在夏天當然要快快點總體檢好不好謝謝委員這些都要做好評估要安全那接下來想問的就是說因為說我們在上個禮拜三有三讀通過說當然是颱風跟728豪雨災後的復原重建的特別條例那有講到強韌電網的問題"},{"start":362.173,"end":390.159,"text":"那我請問強振電網就是地下化嗎地下化的話現在也要評估全台地下化的狀況有在評估嗎這報告會出來嗎這個我是不是請台電跟你回答是副總在111年的時候我記得我們在做召委的時候特別有編了強振電網5645億給你們10年的計畫現在做到現在有4年的成效如何我們其實有針對主要比較迫切的地區已經都大概都做好了"},{"start":391.129,"end":410.723,"text":"那現在全國的電地下化的情形呢委員所指的5600多位當時是主要是針對比較大的電壓輸電等級的部分那最近其實包括院長提到的昨天院長提到的其實是針對這次災情比較屬於配電的電壓的部分所以他就必須我們台電現在目前在做一個全面的評估"},{"start":411.499,"end":431.419,"text":"那因為要地下化它必須要有一些條件啦因為淹水的地區你們怕潮濕啦還有電路的問題啦還有管線的問題這都有好 那我就直接請教一下比如說我的選區龍潭這是特別的龍心路到楊桐路這邊它就高壓電塔這整條路為什麼我們要趕快把這個電路"},{"start":432.36,"end":452.781,"text":"電路來穩定 強韌電網就是因為我們龍刻山崎在這邊還有我們的桃竹苗大溪谷在這邊所以用電量會非常非常大所以我們大概將近這個5公里的這個道路上我們將近有8至10支的高壓電塔但是我們整個路線上我們希望做電纜地下因為那個地方算是空曠空曠的話"},{"start":454.803,"end":473.753,"text":"風的阻力 耐風力 又是個問題所以可以做電纜地下 為什麼不做電纜地下你們說只做 只做有些地方做電纜地下有些時候還高壓電塔 為什麼這問題我問了工程師 他說是管線滿線這附近是很空曠的地方 管線滿線管線滿線 還是可以協調 相關單位從不叫來"},{"start":478.015,"end":499.48,"text":"在我們最近這幾年來我們處理的過程都可以看到對不對管線有150公分啊你有台電有自來水要在最上面台電的話還有你們要占管線所以你們還有很多空管所以我就可以直接處理不要說一下一推就是電纜地下不可以一定要電一定要做高壓電塔好不好"},{"start":500.2,"end":527.625,"text":"是 我剛才講到重點了其實我地下化其實設備還是要出來啦所以還是要地方的配合我們地方都在配合是你們台電一推推得遠遠的就沒辦法管線滿線沒有滿線的問題啦台電不會推啦這個線路我們會再去檢討看看所以把相關單位找來我們管線的話都有150公分這麼寬怎麼安排中華電信天然氣或者自來水管"},{"start":528.386,"end":531.204,"text":"通通都可以大家配置 可以讓道啊"},{"start":532.659,"end":561.352,"text":"可以讓到啊可以調整路管線這個都一定要注意到就是說常常會被挖台電的管線會被挖壞掉為什麼被挖壞掉他道路施工都會挖到你的台電都是台電被挖到所以這個你都要把監討進去好不好道路施工其實要先套會所以很多工程的話大家一起解決不要把德政推掉好不好接下來我想問一下就是部長"},{"start":564.071,"end":588.46,"text":"因為對等關稅從32%降到20%在20%當中的話最重要的就是日本跟韓國他們是15%而且沒有疊加我們是疊加的所以我們的競爭力相對的我們的產業受到衝擊非常非常大所以我們也特別調力要來協助補助我們的產業那現在有一個產業叫工具機的產業"},{"start":590.501,"end":608.188,"text":"部長你了解嗎 工具機的競爭對象就是韓國跟日本我們原來的話我們都是出口大部分都是出口大陸後來的話美國變成我們第二個出口的地方但是現在因為關稅的競爭我們又被美國來放棄未來我們工具機這個產業的話 何去何從"},{"start":610.589,"end":627.244,"text":"要往哪裡去為他們避開這些風險我們要如何幫他們佈局全球呢首先跟委員報告如果是地區就是做出口的部分除了美國以外那未來市場比較大的包括印度包括歐洲包括東南亞"},{"start":628.425,"end":651.085,"text":"这些都是美国以外会成长的地区我们会协助这些厂商加强在对这几个地区的拓展这是第一个在出口国家的部分的转换第二个我们会强化工具机对市场选择的时候对客户的选择我们会协助他做所谓telemed"},{"start":651.721,"end":675.132,"text":"不要去做一般的这个一般的是consumer的这个产品要做这个所谓特制化的产品也就是要量身特制因为日本跟韩国大部分他们的厂商都是透过大贸易商商社去洽接这些生意商社跟大贸易公司他们有一高的成本所以他们不会去"},{"start":675.712,"end":693.322,"text":"接这个所谓的特制化客制化的这个商品这个是另外一个所谓做商品选择客户的原则我们会帮助他先做这两个第三个我们会在制造成本上面协助他来降低他的成本我知道你都给这个产业给他们贷款是"},{"start":693.522,"end":718.34,"text":"贷款还是回归到成本的问题现在我们桃园经过我们经发局的统计我们的制造业对美国出口的大概有75亿的美元厂商就有6800家从业人员将近28万现在发生什么他们要坐视修山在我的选区里面隆泽科技公司他就已经决定了坐视修山修三天了这怎么办"},{"start":719.261,"end":748.346,"text":"眼前的問題要先解決啊你現在講的都是未來的整個程序佈局全球避開風險但是眼前的問題請部長你們來關心好不好龍澤科技現在我剛剛跟你們講的這數據6800家28萬的從業人員何去何從我去拜訪他們一下他們的就業他們的工作他們的薪資這才是最重要的我去拜訪他們一下了解他們的困難在哪裡眼前最重要的做事修善"},{"start":748.806,"end":749.408,"text":"是 這個我會來處理好 謝謝部長是 謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":386,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時15分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，災情非常慘重，下去南部10趟這不是重點，重點要解決問題。首先本席要先請教部長，在7月6號丹娜絲颱風過境跟7月28號的豪大雨，我們台電的電線桿將近有3,500支被吹倒了，所以台電人員非常地辛苦，我們非常地不捨。但是在7月15號，在嘉義的義竹發生搶修的工安意外，最後他是被電擊而離世了，所以在這一點我們來討論一下職安的問題。","那時一定是電線桿倒了，電線都在地上，那他們要上去的時候，一定是安全措施都要完備，才可以升上去做修復。在修復過程中該怎麼修復，台電員工一定會注意到個人本身的安全，但是有一個非常重要的就是有沒有斷電，他會觸電就已經……整個電線桿倒塌都沒有電了，為什麼會觸電？所以你們整個職安、工安的報告出來了沒有？他是觸電，你們修好的時候一定要通報，通報之後你們才可以把它通電、送電，是不是這樣子？所以也發生了一件事情，嘉義那邊的豬舍裡面也是一樣，都還沒修好，還在淹水的地方，電線也在地上，你們送電了，整個豬都被電死了，所以你們工安是怎麼做的？這個SOP是很重要的，從2022年到現在，就有15位我們台電員工因為這個問題而離世，我們非常不捨，一再的檢討，你們報告出來檢討就要把工安做好，為什麼沒有做到？請副總說。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：剛才委員其實有提到，所有的工安、所有的事故都會檢討，很多確實都是沒有按照標準程序……"],["呂委員玉玲：我一直在強調，不管部長下南部幾趟，或者你們一再的檢討，檢討要有結果，你們所有的工安、職安SOP的過程，怎麼做的都要通報啊！都要有安全的措施設置才會升上去的。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：確實。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以為什麼會被電擊？你在修理的時候就是沒有電嘛！修好通報你才可以送電嘛！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：跟委員報告，因為修復的電廠，其實台電有可能是沒電，但是附近有可能有一些自備的發電機，它有可能會逆送電，所以我們在SOP裡面才要求所有的員工在做現場的修復，必須要先檢電……"],["呂委員玉玲：副總，我不是要責難你們，我是不捨離世的員工，好不好？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：我們同樣的心情。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以這次的檢討，一定要把這個SOP在我們教育訓練裡面完備，所有怎麼樣通報、斷電、送電，這是最關鍵的問題，好嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來我想請教部長的還是颱風的問題，也是因為丹娜絲的狀況，我們的太陽能板因為颱風的強風跟豪雨的關係，屋頂、農地、魚塭的太陽能板在全臺被摧垮的，大概有14.5萬片的太陽能板受損，總重量有2,800公噸，發生在嘉義跟臺南。卓院長特別說環境部在8月19號有整理出來，部長、院長在8月16號都有講說要好好地來檢討評估一下整個太陽能板的規範，那你們有在檢討嗎？檢討什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都有在檢討。"],["呂委員玉玲：檢討什麼時候出來？"],["郭部長智輝：所有的應該是……我是不是請能源署跟你報告？"],["呂委員玉玲：好。我主要要提的就是說，這次會被摧垮這麼多，就是因為我們整個耐震、耐風的能力、結構，都是技師來做決定，各區域去做決定的，沒有統一的標準，那是不是未來要有統一的標準，還是有統一的規範，不要全部推給技師工會，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一部分，我們跟環境部彭部長都有在進行討論，我們要進行一次全國的總體檢，就像您剛才所質詢的，我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：在總體檢中，我們就要更加怎麼去加固、怎麼樣固定，有搖晃的或者是太細的或是要加粗的，這些固定的部分有在做總體檢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在會開始，因為這個是跨部門……"],["呂委員玉玲：要快，颱風發生的時間就在夏天。"],["郭部長智輝：是，當然。"],["呂委員玉玲：要快，快點總體檢好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：這些都要做好評估，要安全。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來想問的是，因為我們在上個禮拜三有三讀通過丹娜絲颱風跟七二八豪雨災後的復原重建特別條例，那有講到強韌電網的問題，強韌電網就是地下化嘛！地下化的話，現在也要評估全臺地下化的狀況，有在評估嗎？這個報告會出來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我是不是請台電跟你回答。"],["呂委員玉玲：是，副總，在111年的時候，我記得我在做召委的時候，特別有編列強韌電網5,645億給你們，是10年的計畫，做到現在有4年了，成效如何？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：我們其實有針對主要比較迫切的地區，已經大概都做好了。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在全國電纜地下化的情形呢？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：委員所指的五千六百多億，當時主要是針對比較大的電壓輸電等級的部分，最近包括卓院長提到的，其實是針對這次災情，比較屬於配電電壓的部分，所以它就必須……我們台電目前在做一個全面的評估，因為要地下化必須要有一些條件，淹水的地區……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們怕潮溼，還有電路的問題，還有管線的問題，這都有。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，設備布置的問題，所以我們會……"],["呂委員玉玲：那我就直接請教一下，比如我的選區龍潭，這次特別是龍興路到楊頭路這邊，它都是高壓電塔，這整條路……為什麼我們要趕快把這個電路來穩定、強韌電網，就是因為我們龍科三期在這邊，還有我們的桃竹苗大矽谷也在這邊，所以用電量會非常非常大，大概將近5公里的道路上，我們有8支到10支的高壓電塔，但是我們整個路線上，我們希望做電纜地下，因為這個地方算是空曠，空曠的話，風的阻力、耐風力又是個問題，所以可以做電纜地下，為什麼不做電纜地下？你們說有些地方做電纜地下，有些還是高壓電塔，為什麼有這種問題？我問了工程師，他說是管線滿線，可是這附近是很空曠的地方，管線滿線還是可以協調，相關單位全部叫來……最近這幾年來，我們處理的過程都可以看到，對不對？管線有150公分，台電、自來水要在最上面，台電的話……還有你們要占管線，你們還有很多空管，所以我覺得可以直接處理，不要說一下就推出去，就說電纜地下不可以，一定要做高壓電塔，好不好？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，委員剛才講到重點，其實地下化設備還是要出來，所以還是要地方的配合，還有它……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們地方都在配合，是你們台電一推推得遠遠的，都沒辦法，還說管線滿線，沒有滿線的問題啦！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：台電不會推，這個線路我們會再去檢討看看，看現場才知道……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以把相關單位找來，我們管線都有150公分這麼寬，怎麼安排中華電信、天然氣或者自來水管，通通都可以讓大家配置，可以讓道啊！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：可以讓道啊！會調整管線……"],["蔡副總經理志孟：委員，我們會再去評估一下。"],["呂委員玉玲：這個都一定要注意到，常常台電的管線會被挖壞掉，為什麼被挖壞掉？道路施工都會挖到你的台電，都是台電被挖到，所以這個你都要把它檢討進去，好不好？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，道路施工其實要先套繪。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以很多工程的話，大家一起解決，不要把責任推掉，好不好？好。接下來，我想問一下部長，因為對等關稅從32%降到20%，這20%當中，最重要的是日本跟韓國是15%，而且沒有疊加，我們是疊加的，所以我們的競爭力變成相對弱勢，讓我們的產業受到的衝擊非常非常大，所以我們也制訂了特別條例，要來協助、補助我們的產業。現在有一個產業叫工具機產業，部長了解嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：工具機的競爭對象就是韓國跟日本，我們原來大部分都是出口到大陸，後來美國變成我們第二個出口國，但是現在因為關稅的競爭，我們又被美國放棄，未來我們的工具機產業該何去何從、要往哪裡去？他們該如何避開這些風險、我們要如何幫他們布局全球？"],["郭部長智輝：首先跟委員報告，如果是地區，就是做出口的部分，除了美國以外，未來市場比較大的包括印度、包括歐洲、包括東南亞，這些都是美國以外會成長的地區，我們會協助廠商加強對這幾個地區的拓展，這是第一個在出口國家轉換的部分。第二個，我們會強化工具機在市場選擇時對客戶的選擇，我們會協助他做所謂tailor-made，不要去做一般consumer的產品，要做特製化的，也就是要量身特製，因為日本跟韓國大部分的廠商都是透過大貿易商、商社去洽接生意，商社跟大貿易公司礙於高成本，所以他們不會去接客製化的商品，這個是另外一個所謂做商品選擇客戶的原則，我們會幫助他先做這兩個。第三個，我們會在製造成本上來協助他降低成本……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我知道，你都給這些產業貸款，但貸款還是要回歸到成本的問題。經過經發局的統計，現在桃園的製造業對美國出口的大概有75億美元，廠商就有6,800家，從業人員將近28萬，現在發生什麼事呢？他們要做四休三，在我的選區裡面，瀧澤科技公司就已經決定要做四休三，這怎麼辦？眼前的問題要先解決啊！你現在講的都是未來的程序，要布局全球、避開風險，但是請部長先關心眼前的問題好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，眼前的問題……"],["呂委員玉玲：瀧澤科技，我剛剛跟你講的數據，6,800家、28萬的從業人員，他們要何去何從？"],["郭部長智輝：我去拜訪他們一下。"],["呂委員玉玲：他們的就業、他們的工作、他們的薪資，這才最重要的，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我去拜訪他們，了解他們的困難在哪裡。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，請部長去解決問題，眼前最重要的就是做四休三的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我會來處理。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請張啓楷委員做詢答。張啓楷委員質詢完，我們休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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10:19:24","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2025-08-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：（上午）\n邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午1時30分）\n繼續審查\n一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-08-20","start_time":"2025-08-20T10:08:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-20T10:19:24+08:00","duration":675,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":25,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-25"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.341593750000001,"end":11.387843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.539093750000003,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.51346875,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.80409375,"end":20.972843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.74471875,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.45846875,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.96909375,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.53721875000001,"end":85.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.90784375000001,"end":88.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.42221875,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.09409375000001,"end":111.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.55346875000001,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.85159375,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.42409375,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.16034375,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.24471875,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.37534375,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.02909375000002,"end":163.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.71409375000002,"end":165.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.94596875000002,"end":168.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.57034375,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.51096875000002,"end":168.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.86909375000002,"end":172.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.74221875,"end":182.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.53409375,"end":184.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.59284375000001,"end":195.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.47721875000002,"end":204.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.30721875,"end":203.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.75846875000002,"end":204.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.82596875000002,"end":205.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.24784375000002,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.90596875,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.11471875,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.98221875000002,"end":231.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.64034375000003,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.77659375000002,"end":253.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.72971875000002,"end":256.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.66159375,"end":266.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.36596875000004,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.21284375,"end":267.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.75284375,"end":281.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.92159375,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.55659375,"end":283.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.22284375000004,"end":284.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.29034375000003,"end":296.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.62596875,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.76096875,"end":296.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.89596875,"end":296.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.91284375000004,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.92971875,"end":301.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.04284375000003,"end":304.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.72909375,"end":312.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.14096875,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.49096875000004,"end":337.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.49346875000003,"end":338.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.76284375,"end":339.08346875},{"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全力以赴那什麼時候會達到高峰還是只能被動的等企業一間一間的來報才會知道"},{"start":86.27,"end":109.721,"text":"第一個跟委員說明農部這幾個月來一直以來我們都做很多評估包括持續的跟工會產業還有相關的學者都在保持大家動態性的這個掌握跟這個彼此之間的互相的提醒所以我們的確我們也有我們有進行相關的評估有沒有一個數值"},{"start":113.251,"end":139.324,"text":"我們部裡面的評估比較不是一份報告或一個數字我們部裡面的是持續性比方說我每個禮拜都會跟相關的學者跟企業包括跟這些產業的專家跟工會來update他們的訊息包括受衝擊的訊息來做動態評估滾動式動態評估的掌握我每個禮拜都必須做這件事情我們的分數也是每個禮拜都要把地方上面產業受衝擊的狀況"},{"start":141.505,"end":167.318,"text":"都要匯報到部裡面都要匯報給我看我每個禮拜都要掌握這些事情那這個我還是要叮嚀就是說這個部分我認為未來會更嚴重我希望勞動部能夠確實掌握這樣的一個狀況那另外這些進入減班休息的企業有多少實質申請實際申請到我們僱傭安定基金的補貼金額是多少你說減班休息的企業嗎目前"},{"start":171.906,"end":194.758,"text":"好目前減班休息是要滿30天才能夠申請所以雇用安定措施的七成是從8月1號開始所以我們相關的數字等一下我們再回覆給委員好你等一下再給我啦因為時間有限我還是我會問這個我是希望你能夠確實掌握數據不要說等我們再問你們一問三不知好不好那另外"},{"start":195.638,"end":218.966,"text":"在這些受檢班休息的 影響了3934人裡面有多少勞工參加充電再出發訓練的計畫 有沒有比較少比較少 因為他有準備要做因為他參與充電再出發他有些時候他需要時間包括地點上面要吻合所以這也是為什麼我們現在認為對於勞工的經濟生活的支持我們現在會以"},{"start":221.186,"end":243.111,"text":"這個公安訂措施為主所以這也是為什麼我們把五成拉高到七成的原因所以以公安訂措施為主以充電再出發或我們在講的再充電為輔現在就是說這些是這個停班減班的問題那因為我也看到就是說有可能企業當他關門了我們就沒有聯繫了"},{"start":244.312,"end":256.311,"text":"現在這個問題我突然就是注意到這個問題我們現在目前應該這個部分沒有去做追蹤跟協助有沒有如果就把他企業倒閉了他的員工怎麼辦"},{"start":257.997,"end":278.286,"text":"我們都會去做追蹤甚至我們是主動聯繫然後呢有沒有去做剛剛我講的就是訓練再出發我們會入場做輔導的我希望你們能因為我這樣講就是我們現在應該勞動部要優先來保障我們本國的勞工在這種情況下勞動部有沒有討論過暫緩產業移工的輸入"},{"start":282.488,"end":295.64,"text":"有沒有討論過這個問題跟委員說明的確現在我們在產業上面我們會看到有部分的產業他是會有這個勞工就會衝擊的這樣子的風險可是也還是會有蠻多產業他處於缺工狀態"},{"start":296.721,"end":323.427,"text":"所以我們已經看到現在產業缺工狀況他會有不太一樣的情況我只是提醒你對不太均勻的狀況當然我們現在產業缺工狀況還是有但是我們更要保護我們本國的勞工啦我的論點在這裡還是希望說不能說一昧的就只是我們一直讓這個外國的勞工進來移工進來讓那我們本土的勞工沒有照顧到這個部分部長一定要多注意"},{"start":323.867,"end":339.415,"text":"勞動部所有的政策有也包括跨國勞動力的政策都會以保障本國的就業權利為優先所以如果我們現在貿然的但我們現在貿然的把移工進入都停下來這對缺工產業的影響會很大好那"},{"start":341.592,"end":365.566,"text":"這個我們除了這個保障最低工資之外還有沒有其他協助都沒有了嗎 目前是沒有7成 你剛剛講7成嘛7成不是最低工資是企業一定要付給勞工的那我們補貼的是針對他原本的薪資跟他減班休息後的薪資 這會有個薪資差額這薪資差額的7成是由我們來補貼"},{"start":366.687,"end":392.52,"text":"剩下來的三成他也可以申請充電再出發現在是可以併領的那我再問下一個問題就是說這個救安基金濫用的問題就是因為許民村跟謝宜龍勞動部都有做精簡的檢討報告但是呢過去的可能發生的弊案你們不能視而不見那羅景任團隊拿到勞動部的案子原本開口契約寫得清清楚楚"},{"start":393.34,"end":403.105,"text":"羅景任應該交付35支影片兩場公關活動還有廣播拖播網路拖播結果十記只交了一支影片一場記者會卻要核銷1069萬那這件事呢我們審計部也在報告裡面直接點名了難以驗核履約的結果"},{"start":412.782,"end":431.981,"text":"那昨天院長也公開在院會公開講要徹查羅景任的案子那既然院長都已經下令了我就要請問部長勞動部你們目前的作為會是什麼好 我先跟委員說明媒體現在寫到的39次他並不是39支影片的意思"},{"start":433.283,"end":454.217,"text":"對不起 35市 我說錯35市 它並不是35支影片的意思市是一個計價的單位它不是一市就是一支影片 並不是這個意思所以這部分有點誤會但第二 可是我們確實在去年底救安基金的這個大家關注以後那我們也對相關的支用都做了檢討"},{"start":455.478,"end":477.712,"text":"我們的確認為在救安基金在執行面那個開口契約在執行面上面我自己認為是可以有更好的做法的所以也因為有更好的做法所以我們在去年底就把114年的沒宣的開口契約停下來檢討了接下來我們也會依照審計部給我們的指示來進行檢討有多少在案子裡你們勞動部列管"},{"start":481.934,"end":486.08,"text":"就是在之前你來之前然後你停下的這些案子有多少在列管"},{"start":487.659,"end":517.114,"text":"停下來就停下來 到目前這個開口契約 還沒有申請的還有嗎我跟委員說明 這個開口契約的標案停下來之後到現在都還是停的我們都還在檢討中 這個案子我認為當然媒體這樣寫我不一定是最對的我也希望說這個案子發生了我認為我們部裡面的態度還是要有就是說驗收是誰簽名誰放行責任人員要不要要把他交代清楚希望把這個案子"},{"start":518.284,"end":545.345,"text":"給外界一個完整的說明可以嗎跟文說明我想對於救安基金的改革我們在1月發布以後現在都在落實執行中這個部分我問過你很多次我也相信你會去做這件事情剛剛我講的事情就希望部長做到好不好因為我還有兩個問題因為時間不太夠就是說去年12月31日立法院通過三讀修正的就業服務法在1月20號總統也公布實施了"},{"start":545.885,"end":564.346,"text":"那立法的過程裡行政機關有權表達意見提出修正甚至有說立委支持反對但一旦國會完成三讀的時候就是人民透過代議的制度的最終決定那我看到你們的報告裡面你們在法律通過之後還繼續用會衝擊有隱憂的理由"},{"start":566.048,"end":579.627,"text":"去質疑甚至阻礙這個政策的落實我要講的就是說既然這個法案已經通過了我們當然要把衝擊做到最小這是我們的責任是部裡面的責任是對不對但碰到什麼問題我們也很願意跟你來協助來處理這樣可以嗎好"},{"start":581.75,"end":607.73,"text":"我們在立法去年底通過後從1月開始總統1月20號公布之後我們就馬上著手相關的配套包括增加來源國的供引進的數量也包括這個輕重分流重症優先甚至我們也編列了經費跟預算就是希望減少衝擊所以我們並沒有代付我們責任勞動部就好好做事情把事情衝擊做到最佳如果真的碰到"},{"start":608.53,"end":633.459,"text":"什麼問題需要立法院這邊來協助我們當然也會願意一起來解決我們的同仁日以繼夜在準備這個這個修法上路以後的希望降低衝擊的這件事情我認為我們同仁真的很辛苦在準備這些工作上面最後一個問題就是勞基法第54條去年7月31日修正公布公布了那允許勞僱雙方協商後延後這個強制退休年齡"},{"start":634.239,"end":661.526,"text":"以鼓勵中高年齡勞工繼續留在職場那現在已經過了一年多了我請問部長全國各企業執行的情況如何企業的比例如何那延後退休的勞工數有多少現在這個部分的話我們還沒有正式的統計我們會再進一步那你你多久可以給我資料我們再回去的話再整理一下看能不能有資料給多久多久一個月內好嗎"},{"start":663.707,"end":673.474,"text":"15天 好不好是因為這已經放那麼久了好 謝謝部長好 謝謝蔡政委員的發言謝謝洪部長的答詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":379,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時8分）主席好，請部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員早。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。還是銜接剛剛王育敏委員提到的，因為美國的對等關稅我們是20%加N的因素，我們看到最新的統計，減班休息的人數，從4月1日到8月18日短短四個月，從1,989人暴增到3,934人，幾乎翻倍！而且有91%集中在製造業，減班休息的公司或工廠也從123家增加到191家，成長55%，其中因為美國關稅政策受衝擊的高達73家、2,388人，顯示這波關稅的衝擊是結構性的產業衝擊，而且只是剛開始。我要問的是照這樣的趨勢下去，勞動部有沒有做過評估？我剛剛有聽到你們嚴陣以待、全力以赴，那什麼時候會達到高峰，還是只能被動的等企業一間一間來報才會知道？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個跟委員說明，勞動部這幾個月一直以來都做很多評估，包括持續的跟工會、產業，還有相關學者，都保持動態性的掌握，以及彼此之間互相提醒，所以我們的確有進行相關的評估……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有一個數值？"],["洪部長申翰：我們部裡面的評估比較不是一份報告或一個數字，我們部裡面的是持續性，比方我每個禮拜都會跟相關的學者和企業，包括跟這些產業的專家、工會，update他們的訊息，包括受衝擊的訊息，做滾動式動態評估的掌握。我每個禮拜都必須做這件事情，我們的分署也是每個禮拜都要把地方上面產業受衝擊的狀況彙報到部裡面，都要彙報給我看，我每個禮拜都要掌握這些事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我還是要叮嚀，這個部分我認為未來會更嚴重，我希望勞動部能夠確實掌握這樣的狀況。","另外，這些進入減班休息的企業有多少實際申請到僱用安定措施的補貼？金額是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：你說減班休息的企業嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：目前減班休息是要滿30天才能夠申請，因為僱用安定措施的期程是從8月1日開始，所以相關的數字等一下我們再回復給委員，好不好？"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，你等一下再給我，因為時間也有限。我會問這個是希望你能夠確實掌握數據，不要等我們在問的時候，你們一問三不知，好不好？","另外，在這些受減班休息影響的3,934人裡面，有多少勞工參加充電再出發訓練計畫？有沒有在做？"],["洪部長申翰：比較少，因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：比較少，你們有沒有準備要做？"],["洪部長申翰：因為他參與「充電再出發」需要時間，包括地點上面要吻合，所以為什麼對於勞工的經濟生活支持，我們現在會以僱用安定措施為主，這也是為什麼我們把五成拉高到七成的原因，所以以僱用安定措施為主，以「充電再出發」或我們在講的再充電為輔。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，有關現在停班、減班的問題，我也看到有可能當企業關門了，你們就沒有聯繫了。現在我突然注意到這個問題，你們目前針對這個部分應該沒有去追蹤及協助，有沒有？如果企業倒閉了，他的員工怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：我們都會去追蹤，甚至我們是主動聯繫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：然後呢？有沒有去做剛剛我講的訓練再出發？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會入場輔導……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講，現在勞動部應該要優先保障本國的勞工，在這種情況下，勞動部有沒有討論過暫緩產業移工的輸入，有沒有討論過這個問題？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確現在在產業上面，我們會看到有部分的產業有勞工就業衝擊的風險，可是也還是有滿多產業處於缺工狀態，所以我們的確看到現在產業缺工狀況有不太一樣的情況、不太均勻的狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個你要去評估。我只是提醒你，當然我們現在還是有產業缺工的狀況，但是我們更要保護我們本國的勞工，我的論點在這裡，還是希望不能一味地一直讓外國的移工進來，沒有照顧到我們本土的勞工，這個部分部長一定要多注意。"],["洪部長申翰：勞動部所有的政策，也包括跨國勞動力的政策，都會以保障本國的就業權利為優先，但是如果我們現在貿然地把移工進入都停下來，對缺工產業的影響會很大。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！我們要先保住工作。我們除了保障最低工資之外，還有沒有其他協助？都沒有了，目前是沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：保障？"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛講七成。"],["洪部長申翰：不是，最低工資是企業一定要付給勞工的，我們補貼的是針對他原本的薪資跟他減班休息後的薪資，這會有個薪資差額，這薪資差額的七成是由我們來補貼，剩下來的三成，他也可以申請充電再出發，現在是可以併領的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我再問下一個問題，就是有關就安基金濫用的問題，對於許銘春跟謝宜容勞動部都有做精簡的檢討報告，但是對過去可能發生的弊案你們不能視而不見。羅景壬團隊拿到勞動部的案子，原本開口契約寫得清清楚楚，羅景壬應該交付35支影片、2場公關活動，還有廣播託播、網路託播，結果實際只交了1支影片、1場記者會，卻要核銷1,069萬。這件事審計部也在報告裡面直接點名指出「難以驗核履約結果」，昨天院長在院會也公開講要徹查羅景壬的案子。既然院長都已經下令了，我就要請問部長，勞動部目前的作為會是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我先跟委員說明，媒體現在寫到的「35式」，它並不是35支影片的意思，「式」是一個計價的單位，不是1式就是1支影片，並不是這個意思，所以這部分有點誤會。第二個，在去年底大家關注就安基金以後，我們也對相關的支用都做了檢討，我自己認為開口契約在執行面上是可以有更好的作法的。也因為有更好的作法，所以我們在去年底就把114年媒宣的開口契約停下來檢討了，接下來我們也會依照審計部給我們的指示進行檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，目前你們勞動部有列管多少的案子？就是在你來之前，然後你停下來，這些案子有多少在列管？"],["洪部長申翰：停下來就是停下來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我所謂的列管是指，還沒申請的，還有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，這個開口契約的標案停下來之後，到現在都還是停的，我們都還在檢討中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個案子當然媒體這樣寫不一定是對的，但這個案子發生了，我認為部裡面的態度還是要有，驗收是誰簽名、誰放行，責任點要把它交代清楚。希望針對這個案子給外界一個完整的說明可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，對於就安基金的改革，我們在1月發布以後，現在都在落實執行中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我問過你很多次，我也相信你會去做這件事情，剛剛我講的事情就希望部長做到，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我還有兩個問題，時間不太夠。去年12月31日立法院三讀通過就業服務法的修正，在1月20號總統也公布實施了，立法的過程裡行政機關有權表達意見，提出修正，甚至於對立委的提案表達支持或反對，但一旦國會完成三讀的時候，就是人民透過代議制度的最終決定。我看到你們的報告裡面表示，你們在法律通過之後還繼續用會衝擊、有隱憂的理由去質疑，甚至阻礙這個政策的落實。我要講的就是，既然這個法案已經通過了，你們當然要把衝擊降到最小，這是你們的責任，是部裡面的責任。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然，碰到什麼問題，我們也很願意協助你來處理，這樣可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：在去年底立法通過，總統1月20號公布之後，從1月開始我們就馬上著手相關的配套，包括增加來源國引進的數量，也包括輕重分流、重症優先，甚至我們也編列了經費跟預算，就是希望減少衝擊，所以我們並沒有怠忽我們的責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！既然立法院已經通過了，希望勞動部就好好做事情，把受的衝擊降到最小，如果真的碰到什麼問題需要立法院協助，我們當然也願意一起來解決。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們的同仁日以繼夜在準備這個修法上路以後希望降低衝擊這件事情，我認為我們同仁在準備這些工作上面真的很辛苦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後一個問題，勞基法第五十四條去年7月31日修正公布了，允許勞僱雙方協商後延後強制退休年齡，以鼓勵中高年齡勞工繼續留在職場。現在已經過了一年多了，我請問部長，全國企業執行的情況如何？企業的比例如何？延後退休的勞工數有多少？"],["黃司長維琛：現在這個部分我們還沒有正式的統計，我們會再進一步了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你多久可以給我資料？"],["黃司長維琛：我們回去的話再整理一下，看能不能有資料給委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：多久？"],["黃司長維琛：一個月內好嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：15天啦！好不好？"],["黃司長維琛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這已經放那麼久了嘛！好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的發言，謝謝洪部長的答詢。","下一位請蘇清泉委員發言，先預告一下，待會等蘇清泉委員發言以後，接著是廖偉翔委員發言，等廖偉翔委員質詢完畢以後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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非常好这也就是我们现在一直变化非常的大所以刚刚又有一则外媒的讯息出来外媒讯息说美国也有意要入股台积电来换取补助"},{"start":140.556,"end":164.251,"text":"換取補助雖然我們現在看到的是媒體上面在說的所以剛剛部長你的說法本心非常認同一旦有這樣的情勢我相信不管是民間公司或者是我們政府部門尤其我們國防會更是台積電的董事有一席也是股東之一我們更應當要去了解因為這延伸了我們整個產業"},{"start":165.512,"end":190.251,"text":"那所以我也希望這個變化非常的大那第一時間第一訊息就必須要有因應對策跟方案好那接下來本席要繼續來跟你討論的就是今天的主題我們組成了7月28號組成了災後復健服務團給了這個馬上辦的中心那產業競爭力中心原管局這個聯輔基金會來協助"},{"start":193.733,"end":220.692,"text":"災後包括稅金的申報那要怎麼樣申請復工的貸款舊的貸款要怎麼樣去展延開立了企業受災的這些證明工作那還有你們包括了要生財的這個器具毀損金元是這個金還1萬元那設備的部分修繕是以20萬元首先我也要肯定經濟部因為本期一直在跟你們討論"},{"start":221.973,"end":250.271,"text":"這一旦有困難發生的時候我們整合所有的力量作為一站式的服務的方式那現在在做的就是這個一站式的服務的方式跟本席之前跟你討論的內容你們做到了但是本席要請教到目前為止中小企業受災害的受損的情況究竟是如何我們協助的情況有沒有一個評估的一個規模"},{"start":251.332,"end":278.268,"text":"尤其在我台中地區這一次除了南部以外那我台中地區的狀況到底是如何請做說明報告委員我想我們現在目前就是按受災區我們都去透過這個組織去了解那受災戶一方面我們也有馬上辦服務中心受災戶他可以直接跟我們聯絡但是我們認為有的受災戶可能不太了解我們有這個馬上辦中心"},{"start":279.788,"end":298.357,"text":"一定要廣為去宣傳主動出擊所以我們在這個所謂南部我們也有一個服務團在那個地方總之受災戶的情況我們都應該有高度的掌握所以目前我們這個受災的狀況你們評估到底"},{"start":302.719,"end":331.054,"text":"是怎麼因為台中的狀況可能比較平穩一點就是相對於相對於其他的地方那我們還是要注意比較平穩那南部我們不會說因為它比較平穩我們就沒有照我們是全體一體的大家都是國家有共識要全面的關心所以我們服務的態度都是一樣所以請教到目前為止這一次的受災情況大概損失會多少你們的評估它的規模跟範圍大概是多少因為已經過了一個多月了"},{"start":334.158,"end":358.793,"text":"我們現在還是先去搶救先搶救為第一那如果趙部長你這樣的回答就是目前我們還沒有辦法去整體的預估到底受損會有多少受損會有多少到目前我們都跟前進指揮所受損的加速有多少受損的經濟規模有多少"},{"start":360.374,"end":381.403,"text":"這個都還要盤點還沒盤點出來因為太大那個災害太大了所以我們現在報告委員像比如說我們經濟部譬如說我們一般的受災戶我們有分幾個區是屬於我們經濟部在負責的那我們有三個區大概我們分到的受災戶大概600戶"},{"start":382.932,"end":404.747,"text":"六百戶 大家分工合作包括住家的但是我們經濟部我們因為有水利署我們有水利署在做公共工程的廠商我們都把它公共工程停止然後全力來搶救部長 因為我們的災到現在要將近兩個月的時間"},{"start":406.428,"end":419.489,"text":"所以我们应该好好去评估到底我们受损的加数有多少我们受损的经济规模有多少加数是知道的加数多少呢加数都知道的我是说这个住宅的话"},{"start":420.447,"end":436.385,"text":"我們負責的三個區加起來大概是600戶那不只啊還有其他人負責其他的就是有其他的部門在負責所以你們要統籌本席要求的就是說我們碰到困難大家團結一致沒錯要去統計行政部門必須要未雨綢繆先知"},{"start":438.087,"end":453.603,"text":"你要必须去盘点我到底受损的加数有多少我受损的经济规模有多少我要怎么样准备去协助我们这些受损的人员没有错委员所指导的这一部分我们前进办公室都有掌握"},{"start":454.484,"end":470.48,"text":"前进办公室都有掌握那我们是就我们分配到的责任区我们非常的清楚你也把你前进办公室的资料给本席谢谢部长我们继续来讨论当然是台风跟豪雨的这个灾情那台电的员工真的好辛苦一下子"},{"start":471.061,"end":487.236,"text":"就像你說的 規模那麼大 倒了數千支的電線桿大家忙了搶災 我們要給予他們最高的敬意跟肯定但是我一再強調你必須 主管機關單位必須要去做好人力的調配"},{"start":488.377,"end":515.831,"text":"人力的一個調配跟災情的評估災情的評估剛剛我們已經討論過你會給本席那就是人力的調配你到底要怎麼樣去協助他們要怎麼樣協助他們我覺得這個才是真正非常根本我們討論到這個問題的根源你會怎麼樣去調配這個人力讓他們可以做得來是 報告委員我想這個電力的部分是非常專業的部分"},{"start":516.849,"end":534.839,"text":"所以我們也不是說一般的人就可以去承接這樣的工作所以我們第一個就是我們台電有每一個區他在台灣分成好幾個區作業區那麼自己的區如果沒有辦法解決的話我們從其他的區調人進來協作"},{"start":536.139,"end":554.855,"text":"協助他們人力調配對 人力的調配就是由整個台電公司總部在做調配好 這個是本席要求的幾次一定要好好去調配讓我們台電最基層的員工可以好好的來工作最後一個議題本席跟你討論也就是產業協助200億我們要等嗎"},{"start":558.191,"end":584.033,"text":"我們要等嗎你的評估標準在哪裡本期在第一時間告訴你們關稅的問題不夠錢你們趕快編你們編了880億我說不夠光我台中用的不夠你再增加了50億930億我要請教現在給我們的答案累加關稅上去20%再加累加關稅那您也跟我們的行政院長到了我們的台中來幾個議題"},{"start":586.795,"end":609.168,"text":"幾個議題第一個本席強調為什麼200億是告訴我們如果產業需要難道你們都沒有評估嗎當場的所有的理事長都告訴你們他笑不出來他也說他希望能夠怎麼樣簡化程序讓他們在急救的當時可以不倒下去"},{"start":609.968,"end":621.934,"text":"這個是政府非常關鍵的時刻所以我非常的納悶我本期喊了那麼久你們終於也在這一次增加的條例從5450億加到5900億當中450億裡頭有200億你們要作為我們這個傳統產業的支持的200億但是你告訴我們兩個字叫做預留行政院長告訴我說如果你們需要你可以改啊"},{"start":638.171,"end":666.012,"text":"部長 你是行政部門行政部門應該是要最了解我們的產業要怎麼樣協助我們的產業政策性的一個指揮才能夠讓民眾讓我們的產業安心嘛所以本期要請教你的200億你們的評估到底是在什麼的情況之下你才會啟動因為我們現在的傳統產業坦白講這一次關稅最大的受害者就是我們的傳產"},{"start":667.193,"end":683.802,"text":"就是我們的傳產那政府沒有理由不協助他們對不對所以在這樣情況之下你也來自產業你最清楚所以本席覺得非常納悶到底是在什麼樣的評估什麼樣的條件下你會啟動這兩百億來救援我們的傳統產業請說明兩百億都是在所謂的電網韌性的強化"},{"start":691.089,"end":706.25,"text":"不是啦不是啦不是啦那另外啦那另外啦你的加強產業支持是200億電信任網又另外一條啦本身跟你講的是產業支持200億的不是任性支持的啦對不對不是任網的啦"},{"start":708.232,"end":723.411,"text":"產業支持部長你累了嗎產業支持你辛苦了我知道你現在在質詢的我都清楚謝謝我們這個200億就是說當有需要產業我們在支持產業的時候不足的我們就200億再上"},{"start":724.532,"end":749.586,"text":"請教什麼叫不足 我現在已經不足我現在已經不敢接單我現在已經廠房不敢續約我一個月要繞過了十萬 繞過了八萬甚至有上千萬的這樣子還不夠嗎而且鄭麗君副院長回來她說美國的談判告訴我們它可能你現在暫時性總統告訴我們的是會延到十月"},{"start":750.646,"end":766.134,"text":"那現在的暫時性拖一個月會影響我們船長多大拖兩個月會影響多大你有評估嗎我們這些都有評估在那有評估那什麼條件你只告訴我們需要我現在正式告訴你我們非常需要"},{"start":766.974,"end":780.064,"text":"可以啟動嗎報告委員我們都一直在做可以啟動嗎我們也都跟產業一直在做對呀可以啟動嗎你都一直了解產業謝謝但是可以啟動嗎這200億可以講預留兩個字我沒有辦法接受我們現在已經用你們因為貴大會還沒有通過這個這個"},{"start":790.044,"end":806.041,"text":"这个预算嘛部长你们送来的200亿产业针对产业你就是写预留在你们送来的文字条例里头我们现在已经用其他的钱在支援在支持现在的这个厂商的需求了"},{"start":806.141,"end":821.806,"text":"部長你來自產業你了解當天他們也說工學會他們也拜託你院長也指示說在各個各個的產業別你必須要好好個別去做了解啟動了嗎我們已經在451已經在8月7號已經受理了"},{"start":825.956,"end":842.67,"text":"那是另外一回事嘛所以本席要請教你也就是當天院長說我們工學會十幾個理事長都在那裡希望能夠由您經濟部去指揮跟他們個別產業座談了解他們的需求對 我們都一直在做"},{"start":842.91,"end":856.918,"text":"你們開始啟動了沒有你把表格給我好不好時間給我我一起來努力好不好你把表格給我我們一起來努力一起來座談好不好一起來座談好不好是你把表格給我你們要怎麼樣跟他們聯絡要怎麼樣談這時間我們一起來努力請把你們的時間表給本席好可以喔那我再一次結論我希望你們送來的5900億里頭"},{"start":871.787,"end":893.585,"text":"有一笔两百亿专门支持中小产业的这两百亿不要预留不要预留因为我们产业的确现在就需要我请你好好地去深思协助我们的产业谢谢委员知道好 谢谢我们现在请吕玉玲委员做询答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時）謝謝召委。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好，這一段時間辛苦了。我們來討論關於美國商務部長盧特尼克在19日表示，為了美國國家的安全，必須在美國本土生產製造晶片，不能讓99%的高階晶片都在臺灣製造；他也強調拜登政府當時免費贈給英特爾、贈給台積電等這些晶片公司，美國川普希望把這些錢轉換成股權。請教部長，目前我們掌控的情況到底是如何？在臺美談判當中有沒有討論到這一件事情，還是讓台積電自己去處理呢？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我也是剛收到這樣的訊息，所以我們現在還在看。我們談判小組應該之前也沒有收到這個訊息……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：之前沒有收到。"],["郭部長智輝：我想大家可能都是從新聞上面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為新聞報導，我們在19日的時候看到這個訊息，所以部長你的說法是到目前為止，你也是剛剛看到這個新聞？"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以我們大概會跟台積電了解一下，因為畢竟台積電是民間的公司，不是國營企業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["郭部長智輝：我可能也要跟國發會討論，因為國發會是它的股東……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們大概會全面地來了解，到底美國商務部長講要入股的意思，背後的含義是什麼？我們還有待一些時間的討論跟評估。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，非常好。現在變化非常地大，剛剛又有一則外媒訊息出來，外媒訊息說美國也有意要入股台積電來「換取補助」，雖然我們現在看到的是媒體說的。所以剛剛部長的說法，本席非常認同，一旦有這樣的情勢，我相信不管是民間公司或者是政府部門，尤其國發會更是台積電的一席董事，也是股東之一，我們更應當要去了解，因為這延伸了整個產業。變化非常大，我也希望第一時間就必須要有因應對策跟方案。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。接下來，本席要繼續跟你討論今天的主題，7月28日我們組成了災後復建服務團，有馬上辦服務中心、產業競爭力中心、園管局、聯輔基金會，來協助災後包括稅金申報、申請復工貸款、舊貸款展延、開立企業受災證明的工作，還包括了生財器具毀損的金援1萬元，設備修繕20萬元。","首先，我要肯定經濟部，因為本席一再跟你們討論，一旦有困難發生的時候，我們要整合所有的力量，作一站式服務的方式，現在做的就是一站式的服務方式，本席之前與你討論的內容，你們做到了。但是本席要請教，到目前為止，中小企業受災害的受損情況究竟是如何？有沒有評估協助情況的規模？尤其是臺中地區，這一次除了南部以外，臺中地區的狀況到底是如何？請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們目前就是按受災區，透過組織去了解，一方面我們也有馬上辦服務中心，受災戶可以直接跟我們聯絡，但我們認為有的受災戶可能不太了解我們有這個馬上辦中心，所以我們也主動出擊……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，要廣為宣傳，主動出擊。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們在南部也有一個服務團，總之，受災戶的情況，我們應該都有高度掌握，高度的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前受災的狀況，你們評估到底是如何？"],["郭部長智輝：相對於其他地方，臺中的狀況可能比較平穩一點……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但還是要注意，那南部呢？"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們不會因為它比較平穩，就沒有照顧……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對、對，要全面。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是全體一體的，大家都是國家……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有共識，要全面的關心。"],["郭部長智輝：的廠商，所以我們服務的態度都是一樣的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，到目前為止，這一次的受災情況，大概損失會多少？根據你們的評估，受災規模跟範圍大概是多少？因為已經過了一個多月了。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還是先搶救，搶救為第一……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果照部長這樣的回答，就表示目前還沒有辦法整體預估到底受損會有多少，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：到目前受損多少，我們都是受前進指揮所指揮……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：受損的家數有多少？受損的經濟規模有多少？"],["郭部長智輝：這個都還要盤點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還沒盤點出來？加油！"],["郭部長智輝：因為太大了，災情太大了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，加油，太大了！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，以經濟部為例，對於一般受災戶，有分幾個區是屬於經濟部負責的，我們負責的有三個區，分到的受災戶大概600戶……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：600戶，大家分工合作？"],["郭部長智輝：包括工業區、住家，但是經濟部因為有水利署，水利署在做公共工程的廠商……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全面啟動。"],["郭部長智輝：我們讓他們把公共工程先停止，大家全力來搶救。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全面啟動，謝謝。部長，風災到現在將近兩個月時間了，我們應該好好評估到底受損的家數有多少、受損的經濟規模有多少？"],["郭部長智輝：家數是知道的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：家數多少呢？"],["郭部長智輝：家數都知道，以住宅來說，我們負責的三個區加起來大概600戶……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不只啦！還有其他人負責的。"],["郭部長智輝：其他的就有其他部門在負責。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！所以你們要統籌。本席要求的是，碰到困難，大家應該團結一致……"],["郭部長智輝：沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要去統計，行政部門必須未雨綢繆，要先知，你必須盤點到底我們受損的家數有多少、受損的經濟規模有多少，然後要準備如何去協助這些受損的人員……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，委員所指導的這一部分，前進辦公室都有掌握，經濟部則是就我們所分配到的責任區，非常清楚……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那你也把前進辦公室的資料提供給本席，謝謝。","部長，我們繼續來討論丹娜絲颱風跟豪雨的災情，台電員工真的好辛苦，就像你說的，規模那麼大，一下子倒了數千支電線桿，大家都忙著搶災，我們要給予他們最高的敬意和肯定，但是我也一再強調，主管機關、單位必須要做好人力調配和災情評估；災情評估部分剛剛我們已經討論過，你會提供資料給本席，但在人力調配上，你們到底要怎麼去協助他們？我覺得這才是我們討論這個問題的真正根源，你們會怎麼去調配人力，讓他們可以做得來？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想電力是非常專業的部分，並不是一般的人就可以去承接這樣的工作，所以第一個，台電在臺灣有分成好幾個作業區，如果自己的區沒有辦法解決，我們會從其他區調人進來協作……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，協助他們人力調配。"],["郭部長智輝：人力調配的部分，就由台電公司總部在做調配。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個本席要求好幾次了，一定要好好調配，讓台電最基層的員工可以好好的工作。"],["郭部長智輝：當然，當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題本席跟你討論，也就是產業協助的200億，我們要等嗎？我們要等嗎？你的評估標準在哪裡？本席在第一時間就告訴你們有關因應關稅的問題錢不夠，你們要趕快編列，你們編了880億，我說不夠，光光我臺中用的都不夠，所以你再增加50億，變成930億，我要請教，現在政府給我們的答案是關稅20%再加疊加關稅，你和行政院長也曾到我們臺中來，有幾個議題，第一，為什麼是告訴我們200億是如果產業有需要？難道你們都沒有評估嗎？當天所有理事長都告訴你們，他們笑不出來，也希望能夠簡化程序，讓他們在急救的當時可以不倒下去，這是政府非常關鍵的時刻，所以我非常納悶，本席喊了那麼久，你們終於在這一次的條例中把5,450億增加到5,900億，其中450億中的200億是要作為傳統產業的支持，但是你還告訴我們兩個字，叫做「預留」，行政院長告訴我說如果你們需要，可以改，部長，你們是行政部門，行政部門應該最了解我們的產業，要如何協助我們的產業，政策上要有一個指揮，這樣才能讓民眾、讓產業安心，所以本席要請教，你的200億會是在什麼樣的評估下，才會啟動？坦白講，這一次關稅最大受害者就是傳產，政府沒有理由不協助他們，對不對？在這樣的情況之下，你來自產業，你最清楚，所以本席覺得非常納悶，到底要在什麼樣的評估、什麼樣的條件下，你們會啟動這200億來救援我們的傳統產業？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，200億都是在所謂的電網韌性的強化啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是啦！不是啦！"],["郭部長智輝：電網韌性……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是啦！那是另外啦！在加強產業支持部分是200億，電網韌性那是另外一條啦！"],["郭部長智輝：預留產業支持……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席跟你講的是產業支持的200億，不是韌性支持的啦！"],["郭部長智輝：預留產業支持這一題，對不對？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是電網的啦！是產業支持。"],["郭部長智輝：對，OK，因應關稅談判，預留產業支持……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你累了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是產業支持，你辛苦了！"],["郭部長智輝：我知道，你現在在質詢的，我都清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：這200億，就是當有需要我們支持產業的時候，不足時，我們就200億再上。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，什麼叫不足？現在就已經不足、不敢接單、廠房不敢續約，一個月要賠好幾十萬、好幾百萬，甚至上千萬，這樣還不夠嗎？鄭麗君副院長回來時，告訴我們和美國的談判結果可能是暫時性，總統也告訴我們會延到10月，現在這個暫時性拖一個月影響我們傳產有多大、拖兩個月影響有多大，你們有評估嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這些我們都有評估。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有評估，那要什麼條件？你只告訴我們需要時，那我現在正式告訴你，我們非常需要，可以啟動嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都一直在做……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以啟動嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們也一直跟產業座談，了解產業，但是我們現在已經……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！可以啟動嗎？這200億可以啟動嗎？「預留」這兩個字，我們沒有辦法接受！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在已經用……因為貴院還沒有通過預算，我們現在已經用其他的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你們送來的條例，有關產業支持的200億，文字裡頭就寫了「預留」兩字。"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在已經用其他的錢在支援、支持現在廠商的需求了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你來自產業，你也了解，當天他們公協會拜託你，院長也指示在各個產業別部分，你們必須好好個別去了解，啟動了嗎？開始跟他們座談了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在的450億在8月7號已經受理了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那是另外一回事嘛！本席要請教你，當天公協會十幾個理事長都在那裡，院長也說希望由經濟部指揮，跟個別產業座談，了解他們的需求……"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們都一直在做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們開始啟動了沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們早就啟動了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你把表格給我，好不好？直接給我，我一起來努力，好不好？你把表格給我，我們一起努力，一起來座談，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們跟各工會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一起來座談，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：臺中我都已經下去最起碼10次了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把表格給我，看你們要如何跟他們聯絡、討論座談的時間，我們一起來努力，請把你們的時間表給本席。"],["郭部長智輝：我想這是可以的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，可以。我再一次結論，我希望你們送來的5,900億裡頭，有一筆200億是專門支持中小產業的，這200億不要預留、不要預留，因為我們產業的確現在就需要，我請你好好地去深思，協助我們產業。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請洪部長好 請洪部長王委員好"},{"start":16.345,"end":40.592,"text":"部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法"},{"start":41.232,"end":58.687,"text":"從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委"},{"start":59.528,"end":84.762,"text":"我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把八四亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導"},{"start":87.043,"end":103.009,"text":"背離事實巴士亮表的修法 在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎 都沒有嘛還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實"},{"start":104.269,"end":121.225,"text":"有快速出委員會嗎 你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴斯亮表拿出來嗎我把巴斯亮表我特別為什麼講巴斯亮表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎"},{"start":122.286,"end":146.756,"text":"現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你覺得都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後 這是當時發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍"},{"start":148.538,"end":167.568,"text":"你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長"},{"start":169.141,"end":195.85,"text":"我是勞動部部長 韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢 完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長 是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程 你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉 完全背離事實第二個我要講 當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要簡正辨明"},{"start":196.85,"end":222.091,"text":"事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對"},{"start":226.075,"end":237.893,"text":"那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看"},{"start":240.596,"end":259.122,"text":"現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都器重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對"},{"start":260.302,"end":275.536,"text":"坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多"},{"start":277.356,"end":303.327,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對 數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛 那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實"},{"start":304.227,"end":331.906,"text":"我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的"},{"start":336.369,"end":351.68,"text":"當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500"},{"start":352.981,"end":379.928,"text":"那這件事情呢現在再一次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以嚥和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的"},{"start":382.449,"end":404.274,"text":"相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理"},{"start":404.834,"end":427.496,"text":"我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用的問題檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金致用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查"},{"start":428.177,"end":455.709,"text":"那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公務預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些"},{"start":456.869,"end":469.612,"text":"那這部分我們就在落實第二個是沒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們在我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年我說去年底"},{"start":470.982,"end":486.393,"text":"沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了 零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口企業的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分"},{"start":487.153,"end":512.572,"text":"我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情"},{"start":512.912,"end":528.171,"text":"好 我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對 明年的公務預算裡面"},{"start":531.416,"end":550.001,"text":"這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發案署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了"},{"start":550.714,"end":566.86,"text":"就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出對因為因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點這個部分我真的覺得救安基金的濫用有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的屬在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來"},{"start":570.081,"end":596.923,"text":"我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的喔我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人喔那他們有的很慘他可能他"},{"start":597.964,"end":613.244,"text":"減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半"},{"start":614.373,"end":629.604,"text":"現在提高到七成 很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦"},{"start":630.585,"end":655.785,"text":"這個都是衝擊所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億"},{"start":657.006,"end":678.488,"text":"你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩"},{"start":679.389,"end":699.707,"text":"所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領"},{"start":700.327,"end":725.325,"text":"因為以前不能併零 以前你只能二選一現在可以併零 甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發 你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是 有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子 他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你推薦 我們可以補到他"},{"start":726.266,"end":751.462,"text":"我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波"},{"start":752.122,"end":776.977,"text":"如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列"},{"start":778.453,"end":794.407,"text":"促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編"},{"start":795.647,"end":817.455,"text":"這個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的"},{"start":820.196,"end":839.277,"text":"不是不是這個意思不是這個意思我們可以確認細節你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊對勞工部支持我們是嚴正以待"},{"start":841.599,"end":867.48,"text":"政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會要把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":284,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時53分）謝謝主席。我們有請洪部長。"],["主席：好，請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長在7月25日11點44分上班時間發文，你把巴氏量表的修法舉例為它是一個快速出委員會，好像過水式這樣的修法。我就要請教你，請問巴氏量表當時在委員會的審查，審查的時間多久，為什麼你的認定，它是一個過水式的修法？從什麼時候開始修法？"],["洪部長申翰：我想跟委員說明，其實做這個巴氏量表的舉例，主要在講的是當初有機會在韓院長的朝野協商，我們可以有更多的機會坐下來……"],["王委員育敏：我就問你，它是不是一個快速出委員會的修法？如果不是，請你道歉，當時我是召委，我的排法並沒有快速出委員會，在委員會討論了兩次，還辦了黨團的協商，之後委員會也還辦了公聽會，你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思？如果不是，一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠、說謊嗎？如果這不是你要表達的目的，你為什麼把巴氏量表的修法通通寫進去了？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["王委員育敏：我反對你這樣子誤導、背離事實，巴氏量表的修法，在座委員都在，當時有快速出委員會嗎？是用表決出委員會嗎？都沒有嘛！還有經過朝野協商……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我當初的表達……"],["王委員育敏：所以這一件事情錯了就是錯了，我覺得承認錯誤就好，這完全是背離事實！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，可以讓我說明嗎？"],["王委員育敏：有快速出委員會嗎？你先告訴我，不符合事實嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例，在我的文字裡面……"],["王委員育敏：你就不應該把巴氏量表拿出來。"],["洪部長申翰：我為什麼要特別講巴氏量表的原因，是因為它跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有當過立法委員嗎？現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商啊，委員會自己的協商也算。"],["洪部長申翰：其實當初韓院長是有排的，我們是準備了法案，原本要到朝野協商上面，跟委員好好針對這個案子可能可以的作法討論……"],["王委員育敏：你那個都是事後的狡辯之詞。"],["洪部長申翰：這不是事後，這是當時發生的事情。"],["王委員育敏：你的臉書文，我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍，你把巴氏量表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法，這個本席是絕對的抗議跟反對，它背離事實、背離委員會好好的審查這一個事實，你應該要道歉，你根本就是說謊，背離事實，而且當時你不是勞動部部長。"],["洪部長申翰：我是勞動部部長，韓院長的協商，我是勞動部部長。"],["王委員育敏：我們委員會審查的時候，你不是勞動部部長。"],["洪部長申翰：對，可是我在講的是韓院長協商的時候，當時跳過，我們覺得很遺憾。"],["王委員育敏：你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢？完全背離事實嘛，你當時又不是部長，是何佩珊在當部長，你也沒有參與審查的過程，你還好意思把整個結果寫出來，掛在臉書上面？結果現在就是被打臉，完全背離事實。第二個，我要講，當時這一個巴氏量表修法就是要簡政便民，事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單，就是簡政便民，因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲，就是如此而已，但是勞動部放大了那個衝擊，你說有10萬人、一下子會湧進10萬人，影響非常巨大。我就問你，你剛剛報告到目前為止，8月17日登記申請的是1,400人，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：你當時的巨大衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的，你試圖要告訴全國民眾這是一個錯誤的修法、這是一個錯誤的政策，你當時的立場就是這樣，事後來看，現在已經上路了，而且你們跟衛福部也有討論重症優先的原則，請問它真的衝擊有那麼大嗎？有爆量嗎？有所有的人都棄重就輕嗎？我覺得作為一個政務官，秉於專業跟事實，這是你最好的解方，但是你如果為了反對而反對，坦白講，最後就是自打臉而已，媒體下的標就是「跌破眼鏡」嘛！你們當時宣稱的10萬，結果第一個月是如何？如果你當時宣稱是這樣，應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶，可能至少是幾萬吧，結果沒有，是一千多。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍……"],["王委員育敏：是多少的兩倍？"],["洪部長申翰：是第一個星期的兩倍。"],["王委員育敏：對，數字是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：所以它的成長趨勢是看得到的。"],["王委員育敏：我知道嘛！母數是多少嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：但是接下來我跟……"],["王委員育敏：不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意講，好像不想承認錯誤，還想要去放大，說是兩倍的成長，那個都沒有意義，事實就是事實。我說過了，80歲以上開放免巴氏量表，它的初心只有一個，它是要簡政便民，它不在於是侯友宜的政策、不在於是賴清德的政策，而是民意之所向，因為現在的程序就是很繁複，僅此而已。你當然可以有你的立場反對，但不用去誇大數字，刻意要來貶抑這個政策本身立意良善的部分，我就提醒到此為止。","接下來有一個很重要的議題，這個是媒體很關心的，當時大家在討論就安基金濫用的問題，事實上這個之前有揭露過，其中你們做那個影片的部分，金額真的高得嚇人，一支影片可以高達上千萬，但是點讚數不到500。這件事情現在再次被掀出來討論，大家就看到審計部認為難以驗核履約的結果，連審計部都不敢背書。部長說要檢討，請問你的檢討，到目前為止懲處了哪些人？哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易過關的？另外，你的檢討要不要移送檢調？之前討論霸凌案，你是來處理霸凌案的，相關的人等還有當時涉案的都已經移送檢調，他現在也被起訴，而這一個案子涉及2,800萬，這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的，覺得你這樣的核銷是有問題的，那麼請問你要不要移送檢調？你說要檢討，你要不要移送檢調，比照之前霸凌案的處理方式？"],["洪部長申翰：好的，我跟委員說明，第一個，的確針對就安基金支用這個問題，檢調已經有立案在調查……"],["王委員育敏：有包括這個部分嗎？2,800萬？"],["洪部長申翰：就是這整個部分。"],["王委員育敏：你們提供的有包含2,800萬的部分？"],["洪部長申翰：也不只是這部分……"],["王委員育敏：都有？"],["洪部長申翰：也不只是，就是整個就安基金支用的問題，檢調現在已經有立案調查。"],["王委員育敏：所以全面包含這部分都會一併調查？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查，這是第一個。第二個，就像你的投影片上面寫到，其實這幾個東西我們都在改革，比方下面那個「常態性的行政支出，應回歸公務預算」，我們已經跟行政院爭取。我們認為其實它應該是用公務預算支用，而不應該用就安基金來支用。我們已經跟行政院爭取，所以在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些，我們在落實。第三個，媒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分，我們也檢討了開口合約的適用範圍，所以去年底媒宣在開口合約上面的標案，我就把它給停下來檢討了……"],["王委員育敏：都沒有了？0件了？"],["洪部長申翰：所以現在我們部裡面沒有政策媒宣的開口契約了。"],["王委員育敏：不會再拍這種影片，然後用開口合約？"],["洪部長申翰：我們未來會把影片的部分，當然未來還會使用開口契約，因為各個部會跟地方政府，其實大家很多還是使用開口契約，可是我們認為在開口契約的使用裡面，未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動拿出開口契約的適用範圍，這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討。所以委員現在提的，其實我們對於包括就安基金的使用，包括開口契約的檢討，這都是正在落實中的事情。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求務必落實。","另外一個是勞發署的水電費被爆出來還有九成是由就安基金支出，這個是事實嗎？這是媒體報導的。"],["洪部長申翰：有關這個部分，我們應該是在明年的預算……"],["王委員育敏：因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了。"],["洪部長申翰：對，明年的公務預算裡面……"],["王委員育敏：你還涵蓋了九成。"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在勞發署的水電是一比九，我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例，但是因為我們發展署的業務裡面，其實有滿大部分是在執行基金的業務……"],["王委員育敏：所以你明年還是九成用就安基金支付？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，不是九成，是降低了。"],["王委員育敏：幾成？"],["洪部長申翰：署應該是四比六了。"],["王委員育敏：就是降低到六成還是由就安基金支出？"],["洪部長申翰：對，因為這是跟主計討論，我們來盤點發展署的業務裡面，有多少是在辦就安基金的業務……"],["王委員育敏：好，我真的覺得就安基金的濫用，有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的署在濫用，覺得這邊很好用，是個金庫，結果很多錢該編的不編，編到這邊來。","我要提醒部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊，事實上，你的就安基金就應該要用在刀口上，現在已經開始無薪假的這一些勞工真的是非常的辛苦！到目前為止已經有4,000人，這個是有通報的，我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來，已通報的就已經有4,000人。他們有的很慘，減班休息、無薪假之後，他有可能只領到基本工資2萬8,590，他少掉的這些薪資，你們現在的僱用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半、薪資差額的一半……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，現在提高到七成。"],["王委員育敏：提高到七成，很好！但是你可以想像，一個人原來的收入如果是月薪5萬塊，他要養家，然後因為這樣的減班休息少了，請問他的房貸、他的車貸，還有孩子的學貸，怎麼辦？這個都是衝擊！所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資補貼，差額補貼到七成之外，有沒有給他一些新的貸款措施？像9月要開學了，很多家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了，像這一些被衝擊到的勞工家庭，他的家庭支出如果短時間沒有辦法因應，我就問你，你的就安基金相關編定的預算，還有行政院的150億，有沒有給予勞工額外的彈性，讓他可以來無息貸款？"],["洪部長申翰：無息貸款的部分確實現在沒有在這裡面，我們現在比較著重的事情、覺得比較重要的事情是如果他減班休息，我希望儘量還是把他留在職場上，因為如果他掉出職場失業的話，後面會更麻煩。所以基本上我們的資源現在比較集中在先撐住遇到減班休息的勞工的經濟安全部分，這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面，把原本僱用安定措施薪資差額的五成補貼拉高到七成……"],["王委員育敏：很好！這個我贊成。"],["洪部長申翰：甚至我們還有「充電再出發」，其實可以併領，以前是不能併領，以前只能二選一，現在可以併領，甚至可以到他原本的薪資水準。"],["王委員育敏：但是你那個「充電再出發」的金額都是小的。我要告訴你的是有些家庭原本就有負債，或者是有些貸款要支付，他可能會因為這樣子需要一筆資金來運用。你講的那個是對他月薪單一部分的補貼，也不是百分之百，所以我現在希望你回去……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以補到他……"],["王委員育敏：我現在希望你回去思考，這一波的關稅衝擊，因為我們現在比日韓高出10%，連知名的上櫃公司如果都撐不住，我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住，所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在是七成之外，我希望你們去研議，有沒有可能再額外給勞工可以無息貸款，讓他至少撐過這一波再說……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來……"],["王委員育敏：如果他有需求，不要讓他們去借地下錢莊、不要讓他們去借高利貸，不要因為這一次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更雪上加霜，這一個部分可不可以回去再研議？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以針對整體對勞工的支持，再來綜合性地思考及盤點。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們去思考，你們現在115年就業安定基金的編列，我希望你們再調整，你們是要減列促進國民就業的部分，怎麼還會減列呢？現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大，你們這個部分怎麼反而是下降？我現在知道的訊息是你們這個部分是下降的、是減少的，反而是減少的，我希望你回去好好檢討你們就安基金115年度要編列的數額。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加及減少的原因，我們可以再去確認。但的確有一個部分，就像剛才說的，我們其實也把過去大家認為是在就安基金的支出，但我們認為應該要用公務預算的，我們也跟行政院爭取，希望可以用公務預算……"],["王委員育敏：當然，挪出去之後，你的錢更多，你就更應該放在促進國民就業，還是你這個9.38億都是原來不應該編在這裡的……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，不是這個意思、不是這個意思……"],["王委員育敏：好，那你就澈底檢討……"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以確認細節。"],["王委員育敏：你就澈底檢討，好不好？我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的，因為我們是20%加N，所以這個部分我希望勞動部責無旁貸……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，對於關稅的衝擊、對勞工的支持，我們是嚴陣以待。"],["王委員育敏：部長，政治的部分你碰少一點，你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面，我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長應該做到位的，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：對於關稅的衝擊，勞動部是嚴陣以待、全力戒備……"],["王委員育敏：好，就這樣。"],["洪部長申翰：我們也不會做樂觀的設想……"],["王委員育敏：現在沒有樂觀的本錢了，20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們不會做樂觀的設想，我們會把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來做為我們準備的設想。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們希望給勞工最大的支撐及支持……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的發言，也謝謝洪部長的答詢。","下一位請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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我們請部長部長"},{"start":23.513,"end":37.826,"text":"台南是重災區所以我待會問的問題是非常直接的也拜託部長要看怎麼處理因為我們已經問了很多輪了昨天我也跟卓院長"},{"start":39.248,"end":53.982,"text":"懇求拜托就是我们在所有石棉瓦的处理那当然石棉瓦的处理家户跟我们的畜牧场现在都有处理畜牧场是由农业部来做补助"},{"start":55.526,"end":80.866,"text":"但是我們目前廠房的屋頂石棉瓦廢棄物的清理目前完全沒有看到我們經濟部有任何的作為那當然昨天卓院長有說要用我們的特別條例裡面的環境清理這個區塊來協助可是我們擔心他的預算會不夠"},{"start":82.199,"end":89.427,"text":"我們這樣清一清弄一弄我問了我們台南市環保局他說會有五萬噸很嚇人"},{"start":93.7,"end":120.539,"text":"那問題是我們如果沒有分門別類由各個單位組織單位去做協助的話我相信我們特別預算這筆錢一定不夠部長是不是可以請命一下我們廠房的屋頂石棉襪還有廢棄物我們的中小企業署是不是可以來協助做一些補貼讓他們有感"},{"start":123.226,"end":136.945,"text":"因為到目前為止我們看了經濟部所有協助中小企業災後復原的部分其實我們琢磨的並沒有很多所以這個區塊我們可不可以加強一下部長"},{"start":137.734,"end":166.023,"text":"是 报告委员我想经济部在这个受灾区的协助措施我们大概分成三个部分第一个部分是对民众的部分也就是说他的家的这个部分淹水的救助金我们大概每户就会给到最高四万块钱那么中低收入户每户会到五万块钱然后第二个是对制造业制造业里面包括园区内跟园区外的厂商"},{"start":167.023,"end":190.352,"text":"我们补助它生产设备在场域复原每家最高20万补助节能设备每一个案补助20到40个%那么每家最高到500万集团到1500万那补助动力设备每kW补助700到5000元每家最高500万连营业额1亿元以上者补助1500万"},{"start":191.912,"end":211.295,"text":"那麼對災害復工的貸款我們對公告災區的業者提供利息的補貼最高是50萬元那麼貸款的金額我現在在爭取在爭取應該會得到這個同意也就是說第一年是免息"},{"start":212.507,"end":231.552,"text":"部長我知道你們有做但是我的重點不是在這一塊我知道你們有做你們對於家戶的淹水是由你們來支出的我知道我們經濟部隊中小企業我們也有20萬的設備補助我們也知道"},{"start":232.552,"end":250.951,"text":"然後針對一些節能的部分有協助我們也知道可是你知道現在中小企業在我們災區大家最痛的是哪一塊就是屋頂石棉花跟廢棄物的清理在這一區區塊你們沒有幫助到"},{"start":252.412,"end":279.675,"text":"畜牧場他們有農業部喔他們都有做一些協助的方式可是我們在中小企業這一塊經濟部是沒有的所以我剛剛才會跟你請命在這個區塊可不可以增加院長有說要用特別條例裡面的特別預算可是我看我們目前台南市的量光10棉瓦"},{"start":280.953,"end":307.88,"text":"这些数字就没有办法支撑了所以是不是我们经济部可以在这个区块来帮忙一下来协助一下报告委员我想清理的部分我们所协调的公班他们都愿意帮忙都愿意帮忙不是是这些实名网我要怎么来做清理不是公班的问题是我要我今天清理出来之后"},{"start":308.38,"end":325.328,"text":"我太空包一堆一堆因為石棉瓦它是有毒的物質它不能隨便丟所以我們不要造成二次傷害所以在石棉瓦的部分一堆一堆的太空包我們要怎麼幫它來清理這些"},{"start":326.856,"end":355.611,"text":"报告委员我们会马上跟前进指挥所就委员所关注的这个命题快速讨论希望能够得到一个快速解决因为这个必须要跟地方政府来共同协作所以我们会把这个放在最优先讨论的命题台南市政府因为我来自台南我知道的是台南市政府我们问过他没有量能而且没有经费这才是重点"},{"start":357.199,"end":379.057,"text":"那你的经费在哪里你根本没有补助这些中小企业这些厂房他们可以去处理这些失眠法的费用这非常恐怖这预算非常恐怖不是你补助20万他的设备我就用这个照片给你看那整间密密冒冒"},{"start":380.66,"end":395.618,"text":"大家自己都一心都自己要顧好自己大家都知道可是你這個石棉碗因為它不能亂丟它不能造成二次傷害所以我覺得我們一定要把這個命題"},{"start":397.08,"end":422.89,"text":"把它當成一個重點所以部長這個是不是可以拜託一下我馬上處理我們會從官認定不是從官認定你們根本沒有補助啊我們會把它在其他的項目裡面拜託一下這個很重要否則它就一堆一堆在那裡啊我們會馬上處理請求環保局說環保局說沒有啊你們中小企業沒補助啊"},{"start":423.786,"end":449.689,"text":"我們會馬上處理好 再麻煩然後第二個就是我們在任性特別條例裡面有一個叫強化電力系統我要問這個強化電力系統它所代表的是什麼大家知道我在7月7號看了那麼多2000多支的電感在台南市整個倒成一片"},{"start":451.516,"end":478.316,"text":"我已經說了要拜託我們經濟部要盡快提出如何電能地下化如何加強我們的韌性那請問這個強化電力系統有包含這個區塊嗎有嗎我可不可以請台電公司跟您報告沒問題我大概就簡單的跟委員報告主要有兩塊一個就是主幹線的地下化我們在"},{"start":479.931,"end":501.186,"text":"有嗎有包括這個部分嗎我說在我們任性特別條例這個200億的部分要強化電力系統的這個區塊有嗎那個200億裡面有包括產業園區的也有包括一般的我們講的現在既有的道路的那個改遷地下化的也有這個加強我們整個電網維護的所以這有200億那我想這一定不夠"},{"start":506.189,"end":531.802,"text":"所以我們每年在我們經濟部到底我們要怎麼再編列預算去做加強所以我已經說我昨天在行政院在做質詢的時候我就說了如果有誰擋這個預算請他來摘去看倒了兩千多隻的電感光台南市這個是一定要做因為對於極端氣候沒有人可以保證"},{"start":533.547,"end":540.877,"text":"哪一天一個丹納斯颱風它是青苔而已就把台南搞成這個狀態"},{"start":542.915,"end":564.421,"text":"沒有人敢預估這種極端氣候的狀態所以強化電力系統這個一定要過也一定要做我們再拜託台電盡快把這200億到底你要做在哪幾個產業園區然後要做在哪幾個主幹道我強調我們要從主幹道先做"},{"start":566.159,"end":585.206,"text":"主幹道你主幹道再牽引進來這一次我們所有都是在主幹道所以為什麼花的時間要那麼長主幹道要接進來再接近家戶是 巴偉我們那個分年跟這個相關做的地區我們都會把它列出來"},{"start":585.697,"end":609.796,"text":"拜託 我要這個計畫我要這個計畫拜託送到我辦公室然後再來就是剛剛部長有說的你們有在協調我們銀行端是不是在利息的部分或是用我們補貼的部分來做處理部長我們的利益都非常好可是"},{"start":610.874,"end":634.628,"text":"在銀行的部分當然你要補貼他很開心啊可是光在所謂的災後復工的貸款他們就有很多的問題了他們會提出很多的門檻去把所有的工廠做一個束縛這個一定你們不知道"},{"start":635.886,"end":661.668,"text":"所以我認為你們的單一窗口一定要出來單一窗口一定要出來你叫所有的企業自己去找銀行端是不是我們有單一窗口來 部長是 報告委員 我們是有單一窗口而且我們的行動服務網現在是早上在家裡區公所"},{"start":662.509,"end":680.674,"text":"然後下午到各個災區去訪視解決這個受災戶他們的問題然後我們就是單一窗口我們的馬上辦中心就是單一窗口那你們的單一窗口可以跟銀行端溝通嗎可以如果銀行端用了很多的條件來束縛的話我們就是協調我們會馬上協調處理"},{"start":682.594,"end":693.522,"text":"可以嗎 可以那我是不是請署長當天在我們開座談會的時候經濟委員會下去開座談會的時候那三家廠商已經都溝通好了嗎我請署長回答"},{"start":698.4,"end":718.158,"text":"跟委員說明那三家廠商那個麻豆區這一家因為是新增的貸款所以我們現在在協調當中江津區的這家公司是旧貸的展延所以我們也跟他既有的這個行庫也全力在協調目前都進展而且旧貸展延我們把這個他的需要的受災證明也開出來了"},{"start":718.874,"end":746.956,"text":"所以这个都全力在协调那另外雪甲区这些厂商因为它是属于大企业所以我们也把这个适用大企业的规范跟它告知所以这个我们入案的我们包含在这个从这个行动办公室行动服务团成立以来所有入案包含是直接打进我们马上办服务中心所有的案件我们全部都有入案在处理有 有入案我觉得要把这样的一个单一窗口宣传出去否则每一次我们"},{"start":747.717,"end":768.225,"text":"通過的預算或通過的專案都是在銀行端做了一個組閣的動作所以這個很重要再來部長我再請教一下因為我們現在經濟部除了有中小企業的協助加護淹水的協助其實還有一個叫水利署的治水預算對不對"},{"start":769.125,"end":793.68,"text":"我想 我要拜託部長現在我們要利用災後特別條例來協助進行地方治水工程但是辦法還沒出來好 辦法還沒出來 這個要快我想8月2號當天台南市光安南區就淹了一整天我在地方我浸水浸了幾天而且雨就流下白水我把整個"},{"start":795.88,"end":823.586,"text":"從頭到尾涉水去了解問題出在哪裡所以這裡有四個關鍵瓶頸如果這個四個關鍵瓶頸突破了那麼六塊寮排水我們花了那麼多錢好幾十億的部分才有效他哪一個六塊寮排水的上游要做分流規劃設計因為他從安定下來這次我們的安定是我們8月2號全台南"},{"start":824.506,"end":845.573,"text":"所有我們的雨量最多的區所以安定整個水壓到我們六塊樓排水所以如果他沒有做分流我相信未來都會面臨這個狀態第二個就是中游的新順橋改建他必須要在把北安路三段745巷口的側溝改建計畫一併納入還有要留書"},{"start":850.114,"end":877.091,"text":"抽水平台的位置才能解決三天之外一屆古柏樓的抽水需求還有第三個是重劃區他旁邊剛有一個重劃區滯洪池要加大增加容水量第四個就是六塊樓排水的下游要設置抽水站這整個所有的瓶頸如果完全提出他們現在台南市政府在做設計規劃要拜託部長要拜託水利署這邊"},{"start":878.172,"end":894.48,"text":"要把它抽出來因為這可能要10億以上可是花了10億才能把我們3、4、10億的六塊鳥排水真正凸顯它的滯洪效率所以這個部分再拜託部長是 我們會馬上辦理好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時45分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，臺南是重災區，所以我待會問的問題是非常直接的，也拜託部長看要怎麼處理？因為我們已經問了很多輪了，昨天我也跟卓院長懇求拜託，就是關於石綿瓦處理的部分，現在家戶跟畜牧場都有處理，畜牧場是由農業部來補助，但是目前廠房屋頂石綿瓦、廢棄物的清理，完全沒有看到經濟部有任何作為。昨天卓院長有說要用特別條例裡面的環境清理這個區塊來協助，可是我們擔心它的預算會不夠。我們這樣清一清、弄一弄，我問了臺南市環保局說會有5萬噸，很嚇人耶！問題是如果沒有分門別類由各個主責單位協助的話，我相信特別預算這筆錢一定不夠。","部長，是不是可以請命一下？廠房的屋頂石綿瓦還有廢棄物，中小及新創企業署是不是可以協助補貼，讓他們有感？因為到目前為止，經濟部在協助中小企業災後復原的部分，其實著墨並不多，所以這個區塊可不可以加強一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，經濟部在受災區的協助措施大概分成三個部分：第一個是對民眾的部分，也就是「家」的部分，淹水救助金每戶最高大概會給到4萬元，中低收入戶每戶會給到5萬元；第二個是針對製造業的部分，製造業包括園區內跟園區外的廠商，我們補助生產設備在場域復原，每家最高20萬元；補助節能設備，每一個案子補助20%到40%，每家最高到500萬元，集團到1,500萬元；補助動力設備，每kW補助700元到5,000元，每家最高500萬元，年營業額1億元以上補助1,500萬元；災害復工貸款對公告災區的業者提供利息補貼，最高是50萬元，貸款的金額我現在在爭取，應該會得到同意，也就是第一年是免息，然後對服務業……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我知道你們有做，但是我的重點不是在這一塊。對於家戶的淹水是由你們來支出的，我知道；經濟部對中小企業有20萬元的設備補助，我們也知道；針對節能的部分有協助，我們也知道。可是現在中小企業在災區，大家最痛的是哪一塊？就是屋頂石綿瓦跟廢棄物的清理，在這一個區塊你們沒有幫助到。針對畜牧場，農業部都有一些協助的方式，可是在中小企業這一塊，經濟部是沒有的！所以我剛剛才會跟你請命，在這個區塊可不可以增加？院長有說要用特別條例裡面的特別預算，可是我看目前臺南市的量，光是石綿瓦，這些數字就沒有辦法支撐了！經濟部是不是可以在這個區塊幫忙一下、協助一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，關於清理的部分，我們所協調的工班都願意幫忙。"],["陳委員亭妃：不是！是這些石綿瓦要怎麼清理？不是工班的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：今天清理出來之後，裝在太空包一堆一堆的，因為石綿瓦是有毒的物質，不能隨便丟，我們不要造成二次傷害，所以在石綿瓦的部分，一堆一堆的太空包，我們要怎麼幫他清理？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會馬上跟前進指揮所就委員所關注的這個命題進行快速討論，希望能夠得到快速的解決，因為這個部分必須要跟地方政府共同協作，所以我們會放在最優先討論的命題。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，因為我來自臺南，我知道也問過臺南市政府，它沒有量能而且也沒有經費，這才是重點。你的經費在哪裡？你根本沒有補助這些中小企業、這些廠房處理石綿瓦的費用，這非常恐怖！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們可以……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個預算非常恐怖！不是補助他的設備20萬元……我就用這個照片給你看，整間「糜糜卯卯」，自己要塗牛糞了，大家都知道。可是因為石綿瓦不能亂丟，不能再造成二次傷害，所以我覺得一定要把這個命題當成一個重點。部長，這個部分是不是可以拜託一下？"],["郭部長智輝：我馬上處理，我們會從寬認定，認定在我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是從寬認定，你們根本沒有補助啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會把它列在其他的項目裡面。"],["陳委員亭妃：拜託一下，這個很重要。"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個我們……"],["陳委員亭妃：否則就一堆一堆在那裡。"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對，我們會馬上處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後請求環保局，環保局卻說中小企業沒補助啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們會馬上處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，再麻煩。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：第二個就是在韌性特別條例裡面有一個強化電力系統，這個強化電力系統所代表的是什麼？我在7月7日看到了兩千多支的電桿在臺南市倒成一片！我已經說過，要拜託經濟部儘快提出電纜如何地下化？如何加強韌性？請問強化電力系統有包含這個區塊嗎？有嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可不可以請台電公司跟您報告？"],["陳委員亭妃：沒問題。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：我大概簡單跟委員報告，主要有兩塊，一個就是主幹線的地下化，我們在這個……"],["陳委員亭妃：有嗎？有包括這個部分嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：有，我們會……"],["陳委員亭妃：我是說在韌性特別條例這個200億的部分，要強化電力系統的這個區塊，有嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：200億裡面有包括產業園區的，也有包括一般我們所講的既有道路改遷地下化的，也有加強整個電網維護的，它有分三大塊。"],["陳委員亭妃：有，所以這有200億？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我想這一定不夠，所以經濟部每年到底要怎麼編列預算做加強？我昨天在質詢的時候就說了，如果有誰擋這個預算，請他來災區看看，光是臺南市就倒了兩千多支的電桿！這個是一定要做的，因為對於極端氣候，沒有人可以保證哪一天……一個丹娜絲颱風，它是輕颱而已，就把臺南搞成這個狀態，沒有人敢預估這種極端氣候的狀態，所以強化電力系統這個一定要過，也一定要做。我們拜託台電儘快就這200億，考量到底要做在哪幾個產業園區？要做在哪幾個主幹道？我強調要從主幹道先做，從主幹道再牽引進來，這一次全部都是在主幹道，這就是為什麼花的時間要那麼長，主幹道要接進來，再接近家戶。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，報告委員，我們會列出分年跟相關施作地區。"],["陳委員亭妃：拜託，我要這一個計畫，拜託送到我辦公室。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後再來就是剛剛部長說的，你們有在協調銀行端對於利息的部分是不是用補貼的方式做處理？部長，你們的立意都非常好，在銀行的部分，當然你要補貼，它很開心，可是光是在所謂的災後復工貸款就有很多問題了，他們會提出很多的門檻，束縛所有的工廠，這個你們一定不知道，所以我認為你們的單一窗口一定要出來，你叫所有的企業自己去找銀行端，銀行不會理它啦！部長，是不是有單一窗口？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們有單一窗口，而且現在我們的行動服務網早上是在佳里區公所，下午到各個災區去訪視，解決受災戶的問題。我們的馬上辦中心就是單一窗口。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們的單一窗口可以跟銀行端溝通嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果銀行端用了很多的條件來束縛的話？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會馬上協調處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：可以啊。"],["陳委員亭妃：是不是請署長回答，當天經濟委員會開座談會的時候，那3家廠商已經都溝通好了嗎？來，請署長。"],["郭部長智輝：我請署長回答。"],["李署長冠志：跟委員說明，3家廠商中的麻豆區這一家，因為是新增的貸款，所以我們現在協調當中；將軍區這家公司是舊貸的展延，我們也跟它既有的行庫在全力協調，目前都有進展，而且舊貸展延，我們把它需要的受災證明也開出來了，所以這些都在全力協調；另外，學甲區這些廠商，因為是屬於大企業，所以我們也告知他們適用大企業的規範。我們入案的，包含從行動辦公室行動服務團成立以來，所有入案包含直接打進馬上辦服務中心的所有案件，我們全部都有入案處理，會一件一件地去協調。"],["陳委員亭妃：有入案。我覺得要把這樣的單一窗口宣傳出去，否則每一次我們通過的預算或專案，都是在銀行端做了阻隔的動作，所以這個很重要。","部長，我再請教一下，因為現在經濟部除了有中小企業的協助，家戶淹水的協助，其實還有一個叫水利署的治水預算，對不對？我想我要拜託部長，現在我們要利用災後特別條例來協助進行地方治水工程，但是辦法還沒出來，這個要快。8月2日當天，臺南市光是安南區就淹了一整天，我在地方上浸水浸整天的，而且為了六塊寮排水，我從頭到尾涉水去了解問題出在哪裡，所以這裡有4個關鍵瓶頸，如果這個4個關鍵瓶頸突破了，我們花了那麼多錢，好幾十億的六塊寮排水才有效。","六塊寮排水的上游要做分流規劃設計，因為它從安定下來，這次安定是8月2日全臺南雨量最多的區，安定整個水壓到六塊寮排水，所以如果沒有做分流，我相信未來都會面臨這個狀況。第二個就是中游的新順橋改建，必須要把北安路三段745巷口的側溝改建計畫一併納入，還有要留出抽水平台的位置，才能解決三塊厝舊部落的抽水需求。還有第三個是重劃區，旁邊剛好是一個重劃區，滯洪池要加大，增加容水量。第四個就是六塊寮排水的下游要設置抽水站。這整個所有的瓶頸如果完全提出，臺南市政府現在做設計規劃，要拜託部長，要拜託水利署這邊，要把它抽出來，因為這可能要10億以上，可是花了10億，才能讓3、40億的六塊寮排水真正凸顯出它的滯洪效率，這個部分再拜託部長。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會馬上辦理。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在我們請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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才向大家報告說其實當初在三讀前其實有當時有一個原本是韓院長要這個要來召集的草野協商我們是帶著這樣子的方案準備到現場結果草野協商跳過了"},{"start":189.952,"end":214.278,"text":"八四兩表的輿論很多所以你發了這篇文我們事後再來看看他輿論的這個流量是不是在你發文的時候多不過在這邊也稍微提醒你也稍微提醒你如果你8月23號以前還要發文的話可以利用下班時間這樣子爭議比較少那再來這也是其他人呢有在意的你看一下現在你還在中常委的名單上面不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":215.078,"end":228.479,"text":"因為第二個任務他就是希望您建立一個友善健全的職場這是卓院長給您的任務向委員報告在我到勞動部工作以後基本上我從來就在沒有去開過中場會"},{"start":230.382,"end":251.688,"text":"就是針對跟黨執 就跟黨執有關的執行就再也沒有 那我們看看我們看看別人這個蘇志芬之前在擔任續產會董座以後就立刻請辭中常委我不太懂如果你不以身作則來以身示範要怎麼樣帶領勞動部的全體員工做到行政中立"},{"start":252.421,"end":276.69,"text":"總之我是跟委員說明說在去年的應該是11月底我到勞動部以後我就沒有再去做任何跟黨職有關這個權力上面的行使包括會議我想我們都沒有去出席了沒關係因為一般人民對於請辭或者是長期請假的看法大家還是覺得有一個落差"},{"start":278.946,"end":306.978,"text":"但如果你想做這樣子的選擇那就做這樣子的選擇這個是全台灣非常多球迷很關心我們上次也做了很多討論今年5月我們就說您會來協助他們做團體協約的簽訂那我想問一下到現在已經8月了不知道進度如何呢因為後來您也很友善的發文給我說會去拜會職棒公會然後把一些妹妹都跟球員公會來做分享"},{"start":309.471,"end":331.545,"text":"跟我也報告之前新的理事長就任的時候我們都有去出席那也代表老東部跟理事長有 這個上次都講過了你們有去記者會我們也跟工會有提到就是說如果有需要開始談團體協商的時候可以跟我們聯繫我們有專家可以協助那有可能因為他們現在事務比較繁忙那我們會再主動再來跟他們溝通"},{"start":332.446,"end":345.511,"text":"好所以你近期內大概多久以內會主動跟他們接洽因為現在許多球員他們在意的是這個洪部長一定也很關心啦明年1月我們又有新的經典賽嘛但是他們對於明年這個出場的賽事出場費齁這個談定的"},{"start":350.374,"end":363.693,"text":"價錢已經是非常非常久以前的行情了大概三四年前的行情那現在球員們他們也很在意勞資關係小組啊肖像權的保障啊等等的那我們會期待您也可以運用您的影響力"},{"start":365.315,"end":388.452,"text":"我們其實部裡面一直很鼓勵這個工會跟企業來簽訂團體協約那如果有機會的話我想我可以再請再發文一次甚至不是發文我覺得更主動的直接聯繫只要任何幫得上忙的地方我們都願意來盡量去促成工會跟企業來簽團體協約我們會盡我們所有可以做的努力"},{"start":388.832,"end":412.2,"text":"因為明年1月也是許多球迷關心的賽事所以同步他們也關心這樣子的議題我們期待可以看到部長有一些協助的地方再來這個是上次也跟部長問過的勞動部開放橋外畢業生留台工作那在旅宿業的申請人數上次我跟您質詢的時候僅有一人申請也想知道現在是幾人了"},{"start":415.366,"end":435.455,"text":"還是一人 好像是我們也比較了勞動部跟交通部觀光署推出的一個觀光旅遊業以及旅遊業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習的要點當時喔不到半年申請人數突破千人我現在跟您更新一下你當時一人現在一人人家現在是1500件申請"},{"start":438.917,"end":453.293,"text":"那另外我也有聽說勞動部跟交通部有想要再開放第二個產業這個您知道是哪一個產業嗎你講的第二個產業對 除了旅宿業以外第二個產業他們想再開放實習要點"},{"start":461.38,"end":482.69,"text":"我想這還在評估中所以你們其實有開會嗎也不是 我們其實包括我們其實也有跟交通部在討論比方說大家針對實習的問題的一些如果有涉及勞動權益的部分我們跟交通部會有再交換意見我獲得的資訊是貨運業貨運業 你有知道這樣子的事嗎交通部有跟你討論嗎委員的資訊可能要再確認就是"},{"start":490.376,"end":517.272,"text":"沒有還沒有好但缺工的確是一個事實我們只是希望跟你討論是不是有更健全更完整配套的實習生來補來彌補這個缺工我們來比較一下這個左邊是您勞動部的移工留才久用方案開放對象這個你很熟了在台工作滿6年以上或是取得我國副學士以上學位的僑外生右邊是現在交通部可能有找你一起討論的實習要點來看"},{"start":519.753,"end":547.341,"text":"他們來台許可期間不能超過他自己就讀學程的二分之一就最多一半比如說他這個在當國的學程是四年他在台灣兩年申請一次違憲那現在做個兩三年交通部剛剛他們就希望他可以繼續留在台灣擔任技術人力這個跟你們原本的移工留才久用方案似乎原則差距非常的大"},{"start":548.226,"end":572.941,"text":"跟委員說明因為實習的部分的確跟這個因為移工留才久用是針對技術人力的部分那技術人力是工作那實習的確跟工作的性質還是不太一樣的所以有點難直接拿來這樣類比但我們的確不裡面現在我們針對整體的跨國勞動力的政策我們都希望能夠擴大這個技術人力的"},{"start":573.962,"end":594.355,"text":"流用 因為現在產業上面其實對於技術人力是很欠缺 就是剛剛委員說到說我們其實對產業的各種職缺的調查裡面很清楚看到大家對技術人力的缺乏所以我們現在一些政策的規劃也希望讓未來的跨國勞動力的部分能夠更"},{"start":596.124,"end":615.057,"text":"往技術能力的方向來走來去供應給我們的產業產業的發展的需求但我也是站在您的立場因為您是要關心本勞嘛短期內當然這些方案有可能可以舒緩缺口可是長期它也可能會壓低我們本勞的溢價能力讓這個"},{"start":616.818,"end":644.57,"text":"有一個惡性循環所以我們在跨國勞動力的政策的開放裡面其實我們也很多次表達我們有幾個最重要的原則第一個不希望影響本勞的就業機會甚至我們還希望是不是能夠有機會透過跨國勞動力的政策來拉高本土勞工的勞動條件甚至薪資我這邊這都是我們其實希望設定的政策的目標"},{"start":645.33,"end":659.546,"text":"我這邊提供您一些其他國家的做法看您下次是否跨部門的會議的時候可以拿出來講我們當然你講到實習跟他實際在這邊做事情不太一樣如果我們讓實習要變得有意義的"},{"start":660.287,"end":686.609,"text":"比如說日本之前他也想利用實習的研修生制度來彌補勞工的缺口但因為沒有保障最後他們有去做調整比如說透過合法的中階技術人力制度來要求通過一定的證照或者是要達到日檢日檢日文的檢定還有專門性的技術考試合格等等的才可以讓這些實習生繼續留下來當作技術人力"},{"start":686.909,"end":709.529,"text":"跟委員說明他們在講的實習生他們其實指的是那個工作實習我們現在講實習生比較是從學校出發的實習其實是有點不同但是我們的確這樣的想法還是可以把它加入的確我們其實現在在很多技術人力的政策上面我們的確是在參考也參考日本的政策所以剛剛在講到是說他們的研修生或者是現在的育成"},{"start":711.397,"end":736.957,"text":"遇城就牢的做法其實都是我們現在在做政策規劃的時候我們其實有在參考的案例就國家的案例這一個我們以後會再後續跟您追走剛剛大家已經聽到您回答從現在8月1號開始申請是1450人嗎就是免84量表加上70到79歲的癌症二期以上"},{"start":737.957,"end":766.505,"text":"8月17號等下會有非常多委員問所以我這邊不多做琢磨可是我會希望我們是不是今年年底就這個計畫運行了半年左右可以去提交一個政策實行的檢討報告因為可能到了年底或者是半年我們這邊所有的委員我也會想要知道你真正申請的件數是多少你輕症跟重症如何分流那你怎麼輕症重症的比例等等那是不是要做一個政策檢討"},{"start":767.245,"end":781.233,"text":"沒有問題 我們一定 這個是我們願意提供好 最後有一個小的問題因為最近我們收到行政院來提追加預算那勞動部每年都會固定編列一個是表揚全國模範勞工選拔然後會辦在勞動節5月1號 穩定在500萬的規模比如說111年526 536 531等等每一年大概就在這個範圍的上下"},{"start":792.239,"end":814.884,"text":"那這個預算我們去年就通過啦並且你今年5月1號也辦完活動雖然辦活動那天很尷尬超過5000位的勞工走上街頭抗議賴政府 抗議洪部長可是這個活動就辦完了但是現在送進來的追加預算又有228萬裡面又寫到說你要去辦模範勞工的選拔跟表揚我想問是為什麼呢我圈起來在中間的下面"},{"start":821.728,"end":838.257,"text":"跟委員報告這裡面不是說特別是追加我們另外還有這個獎補助還有包括一些對我們勞工的每一個模範勞工的我們有一個獎勵金還有一個補助他到補助全國性工會去辦理五一表達會"},{"start":839.458,"end":860.812,"text":"等於說不是我們 光我們自己辦全國性的公會他辦模範勞工表揚我們有適度的去補助因為是全國性的公會你是說今年5月1號辦完了之後你還要再補助其他的表揚嗎對 就因為我們全台灣這個全國性的公會有10個左右然後他們辦表揚大會的時候我們有助於補助一些金額"},{"start":862.089,"end":879.488,"text":"那之前好幾年我看了好幾年的預算為什麼沒有這樣子追加表這個每年都有這個補助每年都有好那我會再跟您要這個追加228萬的完整支出規劃用書面報告送過來好嗎謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時39分）謝謝主席，還有謝謝官員，我們請洪部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。這次蠻多委員關心這議題，因為內閣據說8月25日會改組，所以也想請教洪部長，未來還有機會可以在這邊繼續質詢你嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：政務官的去留不是我自己能決定的，是長官決定的，所以我沒有辦法回答你這個問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個是當時您上任的時候，卓院長給您的三個任務，我剛剛當然聽了很多您跟陳昭姿委員的質詢，在這邊我也想問，您剛才有說您發這篇文章有它的正當性，還有您在意的事情。不過當然外界有認為你在726大罷免的前夕，似乎是行政不太中立，並且逾越了勞動部部長的本分。當初卓院長找您來，也是希望您做全民的部長，如果你覺得整個都沒毛病的話，請問你後來有補請假的原因是什麼呢？因為在一般勞工的認定中，補請假大部分是小朋友健康有點問題要趕快去學校接，或者是自身的家庭問題等等，這是很急迫的狀況。因為發了一篇文章，所以之後才補請假的原因是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當天沒有說補請假，我還是要再重申一次，其實當天我這個發文在表達的事情，是因為當時大家都很關心免巴氏量表的問題，我們在當初要表決前，其實那場朝野協商，我覺得我們帶了相對可以減緩可能會對重症帶來衝擊的那個方案，希望到這個協商現場跟朝野的委員討論，也許我們有一些更好的方法，一樣可以滿足一些長者的需求。對可以減少可能衝擊的方法，我們其實帶著這樣的一個方案。"],["陳委員菁徽：但這個距離當時三讀或是協商，其實這個時間點過滿久的，你身為一個行政中立的部長，我不知道你認為這個時機點合不合適？"],["洪部長申翰：為什麼我在這個時機點會這樣講的原因，是因為當時在這個修法要生效前，有一段大概有兩個禮拜的時間，因為陸陸續續在媒體上有報導有一些長者、重症長者遇到看護工可能不想要待而想要轉出的報導，那一段時間裡，媒體及社群上這樣的聲音很多。所以當時我才向大家報告說，其實當初在三讀前，原本是韓院長要來召集朝野協商，我們是帶著這樣的方案準備到現場，結果朝野協商跳過了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係。意思是當時對於巴氏量表的輿論很多，所以你發了這篇文，我們事後再來看看這輿論的流量是不是有你發文的時候多。不過在這邊也稍微提醒你……"],["洪部長申翰：當時很多人來跟我們陳情這個問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：也稍微提醒您，如果你8月23日以前還要發文的話，可以利用下班時間，這樣子爭議比較少。","再來，這也是其他人在意的，你看一下，現在你還在中常委的名單上面，不會覺得很奇怪嗎？因為第二個任務，就是希望你建立一個友善、健全的職場，這是卓院長給您的任務。"],["洪部長申翰：向委員報告，在我到勞動部工作以後，基本上我再也沒有去開過中常會了，跟黨職有關的執行就再也沒有……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們看看別人，蘇治芬之前在擔任畜產會董座以後，立刻請辭中常委，我不太懂如果你不以身作則、以身示範，要怎麼樣帶領勞動部的全體員工做到行政中立？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，在去年應該是11月底，我到勞動部以後，就沒有再去做任何跟黨職有關的權利上面的行使，包括會議，我都沒有去出席了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好啊，沒關係。因為一般人民對於請辭或者是長期請假的看法還是覺得有落差，但如果你想做這樣的選擇，那就做這樣的選擇。","接下來是全臺灣非常多球迷很關心的議題，我們上次也做了很多討論。今年5月我們就說，您會協助他們做團體協約的簽訂，那麼我想問一下，到現在已經8月了，不知道進度如何呢？因為後來你也很友善地發文給我，說會去拜會職棒工會，把一些「眉眉角角」都跟球員工會來做分享。"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，之前新任理事長就任的時候，我們都有去出席，也代表勞動部……"],["陳委員菁徽：這個上次都講過了，你們有去記者會。"],["王司長厚偉：我們也跟工會提到，如果有需要開始團體協商的時候，可以跟我們聯繫，我們有專家可以協助，也可能因為他們現在事務比較繁忙，我們會再主動跟他們溝通。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，所以你近期大概多久以內會主動跟他們接洽？因為現在很多球員在意的是，這個洪部長一定也很關心，明年1月會有新的經典賽，但是明年賽事出場費談定的價錢已經是非常、非常久以前大概是三、四年前的行情，現在球員很在意勞資關係小組、肖像權保障等等的問題，我們會期待您也可以運用您的影響力……"],["洪部長申翰：我們部裡面其實一直很鼓勵工會跟企業簽訂團體協約，如果有機會的話，我想我可以再請勞動關係司……"],["陳委員菁徽：再發文一次？"],["洪部長申翰：甚至不是發文啦，我覺得可以更主動地直接聯繫。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["洪部長申翰：只要有任何幫得上忙的地方，我們都願意儘量促成工會跟企業簽訂團體協約，我們會盡我們所有可以做的努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為明年1月的經典賽也是許多球迷關心的賽事，所以他們也會同步關心這樣的議題，我們期待可以看到部長有一些協助的地方。","接下來是上次也跟部長問過的勞動部開放僑外畢業生留臺工作，有關旅宿業的申請人數，上次我跟您質詢的時候僅有1人申請，請問現在幾人了？"],["洪部長申翰：現在還是1人。"],["陳委員菁徽：還是1人？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，上次我們也比較勞動部和交通部觀光署推出的「觀光旅館業及旅館業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點」，當時他們的申請人數不到半年就突破千人，我現在跟您更新一下，你當時1人，現在還是1人，人家現在有1,500件申請。另外我也有聽說勞動部跟交通部有想要開放第二個產業，您知道是哪一個產業嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：第二個產業？"],["陳委員菁徽：對，除了旅宿業以外的第二個產業，他們想開放實習要點。"],["洪部長申翰：這個還在評估中。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們其實也有開會嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：不是，我們其實也有跟交通部在討論，比方說大家針對這次實習的問題，如果有涉及勞動權益的部分，我們有跟交通部在交換意見。"],["陳委員菁徽：我獲得的資訊是貨運業，你知道這樣的事情嗎？交通部有跟你討論嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：嗯……委員的資訊可能要再確認，就是……"],["陳委員菁徽：還沒有？好。但缺工的確是一個事實，我們只是希望跟你討論是不是有更健全、更完整配套的實習生來彌補這個缺工。","現在來比較一下，PPT左邊的是勞動部的移工留才久用方案，開放對象你很熟，包括在臺工作滿6年以上的移工，或是取得我國副學士以上學位的僑外生；右邊的是現在交通部可能有找你一起討論的實習要點，他們來臺實習的許可期間不能超過自己就讀外國大專院校學制的二分之一，就是最多一半，比如說他在該國的學制是4年，可以來臺灣實習2年，申請次數以一次為限。現在住個兩、三年，交通部觀光署就希望他們可以繼續留在臺灣擔任技術人力，這跟你們原本移工留才久用方案的原則似乎差距非常大。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為實習的部分的確跟這個……因為移工留才久用方案是針對技術人力的部分，技術人力是工作，實習的性質的確跟工作還是不太一樣，所以有點難以直接這樣拿來類比。但我們部裡面現在針對整體跨國勞動力的政策，的確都是希望能夠擴大技術人力的留用，因為現在產業上面其實對於技術人力是很欠缺的，就是剛才委員說到的，在我們對產業各種職缺的調查裡面，可以很清楚地看到大家對技術人力的缺乏。所以我們現在一些政策的規劃也是希望讓未來的跨國勞動力能夠更往技術人力的方向來走，以供應我們產業發展的需求。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也是站在您的立場，因為您是要關心本勞嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：短期內這些方案當然有可能可以舒緩缺工的問題，可是長期也可能會壓低本勞的議價能力，變成惡性循環。"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們在跨國勞動力政策開放裡面，其實有多次表達幾個最重要的原則，第一是不希望影響本勞的就業機會，而且我們還希望是不是能夠有機會透過這個跨國勞動力的政策，來拉高本土勞工的勞動條件甚至薪資，其實這都是我們希望設定的政策目標。"],["陳委員菁徽：我提供您一些其他國家的做法，看您下次參加跨部門會議的時候是不是可以拿出來講。當然，您講到實習跟他實際在這邊做事不太一樣，如果我們要讓實習變得有意義，比如說日本之前也常利用實習的研修生制度來彌補勞工的缺口，但是因為沒有保障，最後他們也做了調整，比如說透過合法的中階技術人力制度來要求通過一定的證照，或者是要達到日文檢定、專門性技術考試合格等等，才可以讓這些實習生留下來做為技術人力。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，他們講的實習生其實是指工作的實習，而我們講的實習生比較是從學校出發的實習，這是有點不同的，但我們的確……"],["陳委員菁徽：這樣子的想法還是可以把它加入啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在在很多技術人力的政策上面，的確有在參考日本的做法，所以剛剛講到的是，以他們的研修生或者是現在育成就勞的做法，其實都是我們現在在做政策規劃的時候有在參考的國家的案例。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這個部分我們後續會再追蹤。","剛剛已經聽到您回答8月1號開始申請，現在是1,450人嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：就是免巴氏量表加上70到79歲的癌症二期以上，到8月17號是……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，等一下會有非常多委員詢問，所以我這邊就不多著墨，可是我會希望今年年底，也就是這個計畫運作半年左右，是不是可以提交一個政策執行的檢討報告？因為可能到了年底或者是過了半年，我們這邊所有的委員也會想要知道真正申請的件數是多少、輕症和重症如何分流，以及輕症、重症的比例等等，這些是不是應該做個政策檢討？好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有問題，這個我們願意提供。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後有一個小的問題，因為最近我們收到行政院提的追加預算，勞動部每年都會固定編列一個全國模範勞工選拔暨表揚的預算，並且在5月1號勞動節辦理該項活動，預算穩定在500萬元左右的規模，比如說111年526萬元、112年536萬元、113年531萬元等等，每年大概都在這個範圍上下，這個預算我們去年就通過了，而且你們今年5月1號也辦完活動了，雖然辦活動那天很尷尬，有超過5,000位勞工走上街頭，抗議賴政府、抗議洪部長，可是這個活動就辦完了。但是現在送進來的追加預算又有228萬元，而且又寫到你們要去辦模範勞工的選拔和表揚，我想問這是為什麼呢？"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，這裡面並不是特別指追加，我們另外還有獎補助，也包括一些對模範勞工的獎勵金，同時補助全國性工會去辦理五一表揚大會，等於說這不光是我們自己辦的，全國性工會辦理模範勞工表揚，我們有適度的補助，因為這是全國性的工會。"],["陳委員菁徽：你是說今年5月1日辦完了之後，你還要再補助其他的表揚嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：對，因為我們全臺灣全國性的工會有十個左右，然後他們辦表揚大會的時候，我們有補助一些金額讓他們表揚。"],["陳委員菁徽：之前好幾年，我看了好幾年的預算，為什麼沒有這樣子追加表揚？"],["王司長厚偉：這個每一年都有，這個補助每年都有。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我會再跟您要追加228萬的完整支出規劃，用書面報告送過來好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言，也謝謝洪部長的答詢。","下一位請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿"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部長您風災過後您到我高雄的重災區山區南馬俠桃園茂林走過"},{"start":37.183,"end":62.554,"text":"到目前还没有还没有但您跟我你没有到我高雄的重灾区那您到高雄这边可能问过全国老百姓大概印象最深刻的就是您跟我们中小企业组的座谈发声的邀请我们中小企业组投资这个美国4000亿的举例以云之后呢经济部呢花了两天的时间说明"},{"start":63.374,"end":89.694,"text":"那我為什麼提到重災區呢我本席非常的不滿我看到您通篇的報告您說您去了嘉義去了台南這還是你們的訪視團訪問團喔有到台北有到嘉義市這個台南嘉義就沒有到我高雄的重災區您知道高雄的重災區呀這三區發生了什麼事情呢來這個新聞"},{"start":93.326,"end":112.253,"text":"颱風過後 喝山泉水 喝到沒命 高雄風災 山人懶 類比取往這個類比取啊 死亡率45%到75%所以說呢 也就是說 你對於山區 重災區之後道路中斷水跟電完全沒有 斷水斷電"},{"start":114.391,"end":139.631,"text":"電你們從以前到現在都有講到電韌性花了將近4000到5000多億來做電網韌性所以到山區啊大概台電也都知道我趕快要布建這個微電網都已經有這個政策的預算而這將近5000億的電韌性是誰給的不是你不本不給的是行政院重視行政院給的錢那水韌性呢"},{"start":141.175,"end":155.828,"text":"部長這個我完全沒有看到經濟部部本部你水電的任性你是主責機關欸是經濟部對於水電任性你是規劃但你們沒有"},{"start":156.628,"end":183.475,"text":"這不是台水跟台浚的工作而且包括這個台水本身他最主要的工作是什麼他只做漏 他只做防漏然後呢這個汰換水管那汰換水管的錢到現在他都得借錢你們喔 這了不起啦齁在王美花部長這邊啊 捐取了80億分4年給1年20億都不夠20億放在我高雄都不夠"},{"start":184.986,"end":209.184,"text":"所以呢在這個水韌性當中你看我們福倫社都還會趕快的去捐這個災區喔仿山鄉屏東兩部淨水器一部淨水器重達2到3公斤輕輕的而且也不用電大概花台幣10萬塊那他送兩部可以一部可以過濾20萬公升的飲用水"},{"start":211.482,"end":240.801,"text":"我的水公司包括經濟部 部本部你們完全沒想到喔這是趕快用一個淨水器讓大家在這個趕快的只要任何的水下去就過濾了 也沒有裡面最基礎的淨水錠也沒有這個過膜酸鉀錠至少也給災區通通沒有所以部長你怎麼看這件事情報告委員 您所指摘的部分"},{"start":241.405,"end":253.973,"text":"是我們水利署要跟地方政府共同去處理的事情不是只有我們自來水公司那水公司有所謂這個水韌性的這件事情在規劃嗎"},{"start":258.523,"end":285.254,"text":"那我是不是請自來水公司跟你報告一下你讓水公司來回答我我政府的水韌性部長你有沒有搞錯啊一個電網的韌性都要5400億行政院院長當做當做這個政績在宣傳5400億的電網韌性你現在說一個水韌性所以要謙虛一點沒錯就沒想到就說沒想到這樣的違紀你要重視"},{"start":286.514,"end":315.012,"text":"部長你不認為水韌性這件事情你應該要一定要這是新的東西 就算你沒有 你說你感到抱歉那我覺得這個確實是這風災當中讓我們忽略了這樣的一個議題所以你要報部本部你讓一個水公司 水公司都不夠給我站在這邊 給我講水韌性水公司是誰來 你敢講水韌性的東西喔 那我就要問你囉來 來 水公司你要講嗎我不回答水公司 我最挺水公司了啦我覺得你們可憐啦"},{"start":316.345,"end":332.152,"text":"哪有到現在執行政府的最主要的預算太舊換新的這個水管竟然還在用借錢部長不重視行政院根本也不知道我們的苦楚講任性吧 誰任性"},{"start":336.708,"end":352.615,"text":"謝謝委員 委員對台水公司確實非常非常的協助也幫忙非常多 那我想剛剛委員所指的部分這一次因為是一個颱風的部分 我想我知道委員最主要是說當這些比較偏遠山區的部分的"},{"start":353.255,"end":365.642,"text":"大禹跟高佐的部分也希望台水這邊也能盡量的趕快來看有沒有一些過濾的一些快濾的過濾桶也許可能我們做的還不夠那委員這樣的指證我們未來會有如果想辦法把那個移動的過濾桶趕快去來解決讓民眾當下能趕快解決至於這個供水的韌性的部分我想經濟部其實也積極在做做什麼"},{"start":377.029,"end":395.528,"text":"我想我們當然就是一個開發水源跟一個水源的一個區域的調度的部分這個會來做當然沒有錯大概總預算要多少那整個時候執行完電網韌性5400億的電網韌性5400億是有執行有執行業務也有清楚的執行期限的來您說看看"},{"start":396.829,"end":416.043,"text":"委員當然是高度非常夠 這個整個供水的韌性確實是一個涵蓋非常廣我真的覺得你真的很有擔當你要來回答本席水熱性的東西 部長你放在後面至少水利署要來講話 水利署沒有來也不講話 部長你不講話 部長"},{"start":418.064,"end":444.973,"text":"我真的覺得齁這個一個領導人齁從哪裡可以看出這個領導人的特質跟能力從危機當中看出一個領導人的危機跟能力如果本席點出的這種的韌性也是有平時的水韌性喔也有平時時期的水韌性你怎麼做你在危機時候的水韌性怎麼做城鄉之泉的分布來副總那個您下去吧"},{"start":447.315,"end":475.424,"text":"部長我再給你一個機會你認得水韌性要怎麼說怎麼做呢有電網韌性水韌性要怎麼說呢跟委員抱歉喔水的部分我不是專家所以我沒有辦法回應你的問題沒有辦法回應喔你要不要做什麼改進我們會回去會要求水利署一起來重視委員所指責的這個問題什麼時候提出這個水韌性的這樣的方案是什麼時候"},{"start":477.278,"end":504.051,"text":"我們一個禮拜好了一個禮拜喔好你不要只聽 只聽那個副總喔副總我真的覺得你很棒你真的很有承擔但是我覺得你的成績不夠承評時候該有怎麼樣的包括你們太舊歡欣的水管這件事情都應該趕快的列入這個任性裡面甚至你的任性 你的電網任性要不要解決你公司的債務這樣你永續經營 這都可以考慮喔"},{"start":505.692,"end":532.46,"text":"包括你們對於高廢水 高耗水的部分你什麼開源跟節流嘛 這都是不是要納入 積極的去導入包括災後的時候的這個水韌性當中這部分不應該講的 一個禮拜做得出來 我覺得很奇怪然後這個東西是你要跟行政院來做來跟你的主計處 跟行政院院長這邊是要做溝通的"},{"start":533.907,"end":555.089,"text":"部長我認為我再講一次危機的時候才可以看出一個領導人的一個特質跟能力是不是擔任是不是適合做決策者是不是適合來做我真認為您自己在這個內閣當中的角色其實你應該是要自己重新評估而不是變成"},{"start":556.65,"end":576.923,"text":"是希望你不要再拉垮左內閣的整個的民調也最重要的是對於我們災民讓災民有感是一個有溫度有靠山的政府好以上謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝等一下那個蕭副總那個一個禮拜是只有那個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時34分）有請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，風災過後，您到我們高雄的重災區、山區──那瑪夏、桃源、茂林等三區走過嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：到目前還沒有。"],["林委員岱樺：還沒有。您沒有到我們高雄的重災區，但是您到高雄這邊可能問過全國老百姓，大概印象最深刻的就是您跟中小企業主的座談，發生了邀請中小企業投資美國4,000億的舉例疑雲，之後經濟部花了兩天的時間說明。我為什麼提到重災區呢？本席非常地不滿，因為我看到了您通篇的報告，您說您去了嘉義，去了臺南，這還是你們的訪問團，有到嘉義市、臺南，就沒有到我們高雄的重災區。","您知道高雄的重災區、山區發生了什麼事情呢？新聞報導的標題：「颱風過後『喝山泉水』喝到沒命！高雄風災3人染類鼻疽亡」，類鼻疽的死亡率高達45%到75%。也就是說，山區、重災區在災後道路中斷，水跟電完全沒有，也就是斷水斷電。從以前到現在，你們都有講到電韌性，花了四千到五千多億做電網韌性，所以大概台電也都知道要趕快到山區布建微電網，都已經有這個政策及預算，而這五千多億的電韌性預算是誰給的？不是你們部本部給的，是行政院因為重視而給的錢。","那水韌性呢？部長，我完全沒有看到經濟部部本部，經濟部是水、電韌性的主責機關，負責規劃，但你們沒有，這不是台水和台電的工作。而且台水本身最主要的工作是什麼？它只做防漏、汰換水管，但台水汰換水管的錢到現在都得借錢支應。你們了不起，在王美花前部長任內爭取了80億分4年給，一年20億，20億放在我們高雄都不夠！所以在水韌性當中，你看，扶輪社都還會趕快到災區的屏東枋山鄉捐贈2部淨水器，一部淨水器只有2到3公斤，輕輕的，而且也不用電，大概花臺幣10萬塊。扶輪社送2部淨水器，一部可以過濾20萬公升的飲用水，但是水公司、包括經濟部部本部完全沒想到是不是趕快提供淨水器，任何水下去就過濾了，你們也沒有！連裡面最基礎的淨水錠也沒有，至少也要給災區過錳酸鉀錠，統統沒有！所以部長，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您所指摘的部分是我們水利署要跟地方政府共同去處理的事情，不是只有自來水公司……"],["林委員岱樺：水利署？"],["郭部長智輝：不是我們自來水公司自己做過的。"],["林委員岱樺：不是自來水公司，那水公司有針對水韌性這件事情在規劃嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請自來水公司跟您報告一下？"],["林委員岱樺：你讓水公司來回答我政府的水韌性？部長，你有沒有搞錯啊？一個電網的韌性都要5,400億，行政院院長當作政績在宣傳5,400億的電網韌性，你現在說一個水韌性……所以，要謙虛一點，沒想到就說沒想到，這樣的危機你要重視！部長，你不認為水韌性這件事情應該要、一定要……這是新的東西，就算你沒有，你說你感到抱歉，覺得這個確實是風災當中你們忽略了這樣的議題，所以要到部本部。你讓一個水公司回答，水公司都不夠站在這邊跟我講水韌性！","水公司是誰來？你敢講水韌性的東西喔？那我就要問你了。來，水公司，你要講嗎？我不為難水公司，我最挺水公司了，我覺得你們可憐啊！哪有到現在執行政府最主要的預算，結果水管汰舊換新的經費竟然還在用借錢！部長不重視，行政院根本也不知道你們的苦處。講水韌性吧！"],["蕭副總經理淑貞：謝謝委員。委員對台水公司確實非常、非常地協助，也幫忙非常多。剛剛委員所指的部分、這次颱風的部分，最主要是當這些比較偏遠山區在大雨及高所的部分，希望台水也能儘量地趕快看看能不能有一些過濾的快濾過濾桶，也許可能我們做得還不夠，對於委員這樣的指正，我們未來會想辦法把移動過濾桶的問題趕快解決，讓民眾當下能趕快解決問題。至於供水韌性的部分，我想經濟部其實也積極在做……"],["林委員岱樺：做什麼？來，你說！"],["蕭副總經理淑貞：就是開發水源及水源的區域調度，這個會來做，當然沒有錯……"],["林委員岱樺：大概總預算要多少？什麼時候時候執行完？5,400億的電網韌性是有執行業務、也有清楚的執行期限的。來，您說看看。"],["蕭副總經理淑貞：委員的高度當然非常夠，整個供水的韌性確實是一個涵蓋非常廣……"],["林委員岱樺：副總經理，我覺得你真的很有擔當，你要來回答本席水韌性的東西，部長站在後面，至少水利署要來講話，水利署沒有來，也不講話，部長也不講話。","部長，我真的覺得從哪裡可以看出一個領導人的特質跟能力？從危機當中可以看出一個領導人的危機處理跟能力。本席點出的韌性，有平時執行的水韌性怎麼做，也有在危機時候的水韌性要怎麼做，還有城鄉之間的分布。副總，您下去吧。部長，我再給你一個機會，你認為水韌性要怎麼做呢？有電網韌性，水韌性要怎麼做呢？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員抱歉，水的部分我不是專家，所以我沒有辦法回應你的問題。"],["林委員岱樺：沒有辦法回應喔？"],["郭部長智輝：嗯。"],["林委員岱樺：那你要不要做什麼改進？要不要做什麼檢討？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去會要求水利署一起來重視委員所指責的問題。"],["林委員岱樺：什麼時候提出水韌性的方案？什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一個禮拜好了。"],["林委員岱樺：一個禮拜？好。你不要只聽副總。副總，我真的覺得你很棒，你真的很有承擔，但是我覺得你的層級不夠。承平時候該有怎麼樣的做法，包括水管汰舊換新這件事情，都應該趕快列入這樣的韌性裡面，甚至電網韌性那些要不要解決公司的債務、讓你永續經營，這些都可以考慮。包括你們對於高廢水、高耗水的部分要怎麼開源跟節流，這些都要納入、積極地去導入，還有包括災後的水韌性等等，這些都應該是部本部要講的，一個禮拜做得出來，我也覺得很奇怪。然後這個東西是你要跟行政院、主計總處、行政院院長做溝通的。","部長，我再講一次，危機的時候才可以看出一個領導人的特質跟能力，以及是不是適合做決策者。我真的認為您對於自己在這個內閣當中的角色，其實應該自己重新評估，而不是變成……希望你不要再拉垮卓內閣整個的民調，最重要的是讓災民有感，成為有溫度、有靠山的政府。以上，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","蕭副總，等一下，一個禮拜是只有高雄，還是全臺灣的評估？"],["郭部長智輝：高雄。"],["主席：只有高雄，是不是？"],["林委員岱樺：我補充一下，不好意思，這不是質詢。我非常感謝主席延續我的議題。主席，我是不是請你裁示，我覺得一個禮拜做不出來，因為是包括整個全臺灣的水韌性，比照台電韌性的問題，所以我願意多給他一點時間，至少三個禮拜到一個月。一個禮拜是不可能做出來的，連彰化等等，他們要先去做盤點欵！這不是只有針對災區，而是整個做盤點。謝謝主席。"],["主席：林委員，你要求的是全臺灣的水韌性計畫，而不是高雄的水韌性計畫？"],["林委員岱樺：對，是的。"],["主席：請經濟部回去再評估，再提出相關全臺灣的水韌性計畫。"],["林委員岱樺：請主席參考一下，是不是一個月內提出來全臺的水韌性方案？"],["主席：郭部長，是不是能夠在1個月內提出全臺灣的？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去跟水利署討論。1個月、1個月。"],["主席：好。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝主席。"],["主席：那就1個月提出全臺灣的水韌性相關計畫。","現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法"},{"start":29.356,"end":50.961,"text":"恐怕就将打乱包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顾规划新法大概开放80岁以上或70岁以上罹患癌症第二期的长辈不用经过专业评估就可以直接聘雇我们的外籍看护这样一来增加了53万有评估资格者评估移工资格者"},{"start":51.465,"end":72.398,"text":"那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是"},{"start":75.207,"end":103.379,"text":"剛剛趙志偉講的說政府在恐嚇事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的因為總盟大概60幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選"},{"start":104.369,"end":112.472,"text":"而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的"},{"start":113.106,"end":137.108,"text":"所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工移工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的"},{"start":138.171,"end":153.167,"text":"避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部 勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦7天可以獲得招募的許可函"},{"start":153.735,"end":177.889,"text":"如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎"},{"start":179.697,"end":202.618,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工"},{"start":203.599,"end":222.582,"text":"那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情"},{"start":223.383,"end":239.475,"text":"所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天"},{"start":240.596,"end":268.036,"text":"那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在懲辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量在減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分"},{"start":268.696,"end":295.997,"text":"這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後"},{"start":296.522,"end":306.564,"text":"才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說"},{"start":308.567,"end":326.688,"text":"沒有沒有多少人申請嘛量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍"},{"start":327.549,"end":346.067,"text":"那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是"},{"start":347.366,"end":362.564,"text":"避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情對但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任"},{"start":362.864,"end":387.244,"text":"在過去多元免評的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者強人的時程所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症人僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者"},{"start":388.044,"end":411.393,"text":"雇主的求財招募的時間 申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在委員你的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以"},{"start":411.772,"end":437.854,"text":"可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是"},{"start":438.735,"end":456.78,"text":"原本的原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個這就是很難2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰"},{"start":457.76,"end":481.943,"text":"疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓需照顧家庭的雇主急著跳腳對此勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法"},{"start":482.563,"end":502.341,"text":"民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群"},{"start":502.941,"end":523.619,"text":"媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例"},{"start":525.641,"end":547.221,"text":"我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少"},{"start":547.421,"end":563.584,"text":"好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎"},{"start":564.925,"end":587.863,"text":"對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那"},{"start":590.645,"end":608.703,"text":"這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標"},{"start":610.284,"end":627.199,"text":"器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任"},{"start":627.779,"end":642.304,"text":"所以我們也不能把他想的好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題這樣可能也會出問題所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點可為嚴峻狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求"},{"start":644.105,"end":672.761,"text":"既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重勞動部去提升 提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工因為照顧技術不好在入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日當然有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的"},{"start":674.302,"end":693.491,"text":"時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉換也可以解決那個缺工的問題我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後它就必須被送回去被送回國家"},{"start":693.971,"end":717.067,"text":"我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化那尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻"},{"start":718.451,"end":745.824,"text":"是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這個大院通過這個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪聖翰 洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟我們報告我們主要就幾個部分"},{"start":746.624,"end":767.786,"text":"就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下"},{"start":768.906,"end":790.663,"text":"衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是 報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要"},{"start":791.423,"end":819.703,"text":"那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把"},{"start":821.354,"end":836.772,"text":"移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来"},{"start":837.633,"end":855.124,"text":"來跟同仁來嚴寧就是剛剛委員剛剛所說的這部分確實啦因為整個這一個我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康復工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是"},{"start":856.164,"end":882.797,"text":"既然這次把80歲的巴士兩表廢除所以我們有沒有考慮因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上巴士兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣巴士兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭"},{"start":883.317,"end":912.658,"text":"那CMS不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎包委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個怕是兩不一樣有點像就是資格考博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像就是那個博士班口試啊這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是有民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係好OK非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好謝謝林耀勳委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時23分）主席，麻煩請洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。去年底我們就通過了就業服務法第四十六條修法，恐怕將打亂重度需求者跟失智症者的照顧規劃。新法開放80歲以上，或70歲以上罹患癌症第二期的長輩，不用經過專業評估，就可以直接聘僱外籍看護，這樣一來，增加了53萬聘僱移工資格者，預估將近有10萬人要提出申請。特別是這些申請人，多數都是比較好照顧的長輩，將會把真正有需求的重症者排擠到後邊，所以本席非常擔心未來移工將更難請，薪資飆高，有錢也找不到人。我想這不是只有我們擔心，剛剛昭姿委員所講的，政府在恐嚇，事實上民間團體也提出來，7月28日社福總盟跟很多相關的……因為總盟大概六十幾個團體，他們跟本席共同召開記者會，呼籲希望落實我們的重症優先，會中台灣失智症協會還表示，失智症患者的家庭從來都沒有選擇移工，而是沒有挑選移工的條件，他們根本沒有任何選擇權，他們是被挑選的，所以我們很擔心的是，未來重症家庭將更難請到移工，或者是因為代價昂貴而請不起移工。","第一個，移工本來就是國跟國的競爭，我們本來就很難競爭得過日、韓兩個國家，還有產業跟產業之間的競爭，今天看護工要去跟其他產業競爭本來已經很困難，更何況現在還有所謂的避重就輕，也就是重症的病患真的會很難找到人。所以想問勞動部，勞動部提出的六大配套當中，重症者最快1天內能夠完成國內推介，7天可以獲得招募的許可函，如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序。可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制，同時對雇主跟移工伸手招攬，所以重症者家庭可能招募不到人。我不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省這21天有效嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確不管是在修法的期間，或修法通過，我們其實最擔心的就是對重症家庭的影響。的確尤其是近期這個法生效上路之後，我們陸陸續續也接到一些陳情，這些重症家庭要聘僱移工的時候，或他已經聘僱的移工，在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變，或對於是否要留下來，移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法，這樣子陳情的案件，我們也陸陸續續聽到不少。包括網路上面，有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息，但是其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情。","剛剛講到我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益，所以我們在這一次的配套裡面，我特別希望讓重症家庭，包括他的行政審查都能夠比較優先，像過去一般其實在求才階段可能要7天，如果是拿到重症資格的話，求才可能1天，我們都儘量縮短他們可能相對應的程序，或者是我們在承辦案件的時候，讓重症家庭可以優先，就是希望儘量再減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到行政上面的一些阻礙，或者是一些行政、時間上面的成本，這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分。"],["林委員月琴：部長，這個可能短期有效，一個月後可能就很難達到重症優先的效果，勞動部怎麼看這件事情？為什麼我們這樣講？現在是因為還沒有這麼多80歲以上的老人家家庭知道這件事情。我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多，可是後端越來越多人知道之後，這個效果可能半年後才會看到衝擊量進來，預估10萬，所以現在有很多人說不會啊，也一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來……像我們昭姿委員說沒有多少人申請，量很低，可是我們擔心的是半年後怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：其實因為現在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚，就像我剛剛跟委員報告、跟媒體報告的，的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多，可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週申請的人數多2倍，未來第三週、第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢。這個部分可能還要更多的數據比較，才能觀察到趨勢。但我們只能盡我們所能協助重症的家庭，就像我剛剛在報告也說過，我們也自己清楚，可能還是很難完全避免對重症家庭的影響，我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門所能，盡力優先服務重症家庭，這是我們所能做的事情，但能做的事情我們就儘量做，至少這是我們行政部門的責任。"],["林委員月琴：在過去多元免評的方案條件裡面，有一項條件是使用長照6個月後，就取得我們移工聘僱的資格，這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者搶人的時程。在訂這個政策的時候，除了縮短重症雇主的求才招募申請時間，另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者雇主求才招募的時間、申請的時間，把兩邊的距離再度能夠拉長一點？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你的問題是要把多元免評的時間再縮短嗎？"],["林委員月琴：也就是說，我覺得要把兩邊的時間距離拉長，否則你現在80歲大概7天的時間，雖然重症的時間是可以短一點就申請得到，我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長，是不是就可以讓重症的還是有優先順位？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在事實上輕症還是維持原本的，就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的，因為如果我們要特別把他的程序拉長的話，可能也會造成輕症的申請者可能也會有抱怨。所以，我們基本上，現在就是維持輕症的申請者原本的機制，但我們做的事情是讓重症優先，我們的確現在不是去選擇把輕症的程序給拉長，因為這個……"],["林委員月琴：部長，這就是很難的部分，2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的移工搶人大戰，疫情限制了移工入境，導致我們缺工頻傳，部分看護工看準廠工較優渥的勞動條件，以騷擾雇主或是怠工方式來逼迫雇主，藉由三方合意方式轉為廠工，讓須照護家庭的雇主急得跳腳。對此，勞動部那時候去修正了一個辦法，明定移工跨業轉換的話要以同類別為優先，也就是說，家庭看護工如果14日內沒有雇主承接的話，才可以轉換到其他業別。所以想問勞動部，我們聘僱新制上路的一個問題，早在今年初就已經傳遍了整個移工社群，媒體甚至還報導，今年7月移工1955專線被打到爆，重症家庭聘僱移工醞釀跳槽。所以請問，今年7月到現在，1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加？還有社福類的移工轉換，雇主的諮詢電話有多少的比例？"],["洪部長申翰：我想一直以來，其實我們1955專線來詢問移工相關的事項有比較多，的確這幾個月來，詢問80歲以上免巴氏量表申請的程序等等相關的問題也增加不少，不過，詳細的數字，我可能要跟我們部裡面的業務單位去確認一下，才知道到底多了多少。"],["林委員月琴：好，那是不是會後再給我數據？部長，我再續問，新制上路至今，我們的社福類移工申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量，跟前幾個月比是不是有增加？就像你剛剛講的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，就是我剛才說大概1,450左右這個數字，等於是在修法後，因為修法而新取得資格有來申請的人，包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的……就80歲以上的長者及70歲到79歲癌症二期的病患，這兩個加起來就是這個數字。我們看到這個數字確實有一些增加的趨勢，但是後續真的還需要一點時間，我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定必然會增加。其實從勞動部的角度，我們也不希望這個數字增加，因為我們在提醒「棄重擇輕」這件事情，其實是一個提醒，並不是我們的政策目標。"],["林委員月琴：是。"],["洪部長申翰：「棄重擇輕」並不是我們的政策目標，或者要增加大量的人來申請，這不是我們的政策目標，可是勞動部作為行政部門，要為可能會有增加的人數準備，尤其是如果真的增加很多的話，我們必須準備，這是一個行政部門該有的責任，我們也不能把它想得好像很樂觀或者是「啊！都沒問題。」這樣可能也會出問題，所以我們必須把情境設想可能比較嚴峻一點，為嚴峻的狀況準備，如果真的沒有來這麼多人的話，我想我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求。"],["林委員月琴：部長，國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重，勞動部何不去提升？提升什麼呢？因為本席獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換雇主的移工，因為照顧技術不好，在入境半年內就被雇主解約了，移工在解約之後，比較不容易轉換，近日有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題。有沒有考慮提升他們的照顧技術，活化在安置中心等待的時間去做這件事情，讓移工能夠順利轉換，也可以解決缺工的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：接下來我們近期也會針對我們的轉換中心強化它的功能，就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢，不要有很多可能合約到期以後，他就必須被送回去、被送回國家，我們更希望他能夠被優先承接。第二個，剛才委員提到關於我們學習的課程，接下來也會強化，尤其包括語言的部分，或者是照顧技巧的部分，這都是我們想強化的方向。"],["林委員月琴：好。再麻煩我們衛福部的次長，我想這項政策按理說不應該是勞動部的事，請教衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻？"],["呂次長建德：是，非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心。在大院通過第四十六條以後，本部跟勞動部一直維持非常、非常密切的聯繫，經過卓院長的指示，我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的會議，洪申翰部長對我們有非常、非常多的指導。我們主要就幾個部分，大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的衝擊，所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症……"],["林委員月琴：次長，我現在看你們開的課程，事實上有些是線上課程，可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差，所以移工去上課，如果是實體課程的話，當然意味著雇主在這段時間沒有人照顧，需要長照服務支援。所以請問一下，衛福部有什麼樣的對應作為？"],["呂次長建德：是。報告委員，最主要如果移工要來上課的話，其實基本上還要經過聘僱主他們家庭的同意。我也必須要承認，一般來說，雇主通常對於准假的部分，可能還是比較會有他們自己本身需要的考量。當然，我們還是會加強宣導，因為移工來上課，其實對於整個照顧的品質，基本上還是有幫助，所以我們還是會跟聘僱的家庭多宣導。"],["林委員月琴：最後，我希望是不是可以考慮……因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年，從衰弱到離世的時間點大概10年，所以請教衛福部，我覺得在整個長期照顧方式的選項裡，是不是應該把移工的照顧跟住宿型機構整合起來？不是只有衰弱到中度後面就交由家庭解決，你的看法如何？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我覺得這個確實是一個不錯的方向，我也會跟同仁研擬委員剛剛所說的這部分。確實啦！因為我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路，我想對於怎麼樣把家庭看護工也視為我們未來的潛在人力，我想這個……"],["林委員月琴：再進一步請教，既然這次把80歲以上聘僱外看的巴氏量表廢除，你們有沒有考慮……因為在2021年身心障礙鑑定與需求評估（ICF）曾經做過一次改革，老人照顧的需求評估為何不改革？整個用你們的長照需求做評估機制。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，基本上巴氏量表跟我們現在所謂CMS，我必須要說還是有點不太一樣啦！巴氏量表其實大概就是「你要不要聘僱外籍家庭看護工？」CMS……"],["林委員月琴：不能用整個CMS評估嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這兩個還是不一樣，我打個比方，這個巴氏量表有點像是資格考，博士班的資格考，可是CMS有點像是博士班口試啊！"],["林委員月琴：民間團體已經有這樣的……"],["呂次長建德：這兩個還是不一樣，一個是資格，一個是……"],["林委員月琴：對，民間團體已經開始有提出這樣的想法。"],["呂次長建德：是，我了解啦！"],["林委員月琴：所以你們評估看看，再把評估報告給我。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["林委員月琴：因為時間關係，謝謝部長及次長。"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言，也謝謝相關部長的答詢。","下一位請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 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我們從這個四月份開始就不斷地跟業者在討論希望說面臨到這個關稅這樣的一個進口的這種衝擊那麼國內的這些車廠應該如何來因應"},{"start":288.457,"end":309.744,"text":"那我們都有討論 不斷地在討論 不斷地在溝通我們希望能夠找到一條適合他們在台灣發展的這樣的一個方向那因為這個是沒有 還沒有一個確定每一家廠商 因為他們很多都是外系日系的 韓系的"},{"start":310.684,"end":328.437,"text":"對目前所謂的國產車其實全部都是外國的品牌他們在台灣這邊做組裝即使做組裝這個部分對整個台灣的一個汽車產業還是有一些貢獻不管在就業的部分或者是說在一些相關技術的一個升級上面來說都還是很重要的"},{"start":328.777,"end":352.062,"text":"所以本席希望說我們經濟部在考量整個汽車產業當中的時候對於國產車的部分跟進口車的部分雖然目前前七個月所有的汽車產業全部都倒可是對於國產車的部分的時候我們希望經濟部這邊基於整個產業扶持的狀態的時候能夠有更具體的方案提出來是 報告委員我們現在盡量來跟他們討論"},{"start":353.902,"end":377.547,"text":"希望他们能够发展台湾的优势产业在车辆上面选择这个车的这个车的这个怎么讲比如说电动车这样的这一款是不是在台湾制造对他们来讲是比较有利的他因为是国际品牌所以他虽然没有发展电动车是他的主力"},{"start":378.667,"end":403.708,"text":"那他可能都是以油電車為主力但是我們建議他是不是可以把全世界他需要生產電動車可以在台灣來生產市部長這樣子的一個產業穩定方案或者說你這邊提到一個建議產業發展方向大概什麼時候可以提出來我們都一直在討論我們都一直在討論但是我想可不可以盡快給我一個時間因為我想說他們這樣導成一片的時候他們需要有一些"},{"start":405.91,"end":433.332,"text":"我們的方法我們一直要跟尊重這個企業產業我們是協助他但是我們不能夠我們對這些產業我們關心的程度跟委員是一樣理解部長我在想說針對這個部分因為國產車的這個部分因為它牽涉到太多家庭了30到50萬30萬到50萬的一個家庭都受到國產汽車這樣子的影響所以我們希望經濟部這邊能夠扮演更好的一個角色好不好"},{"start":433.632,"end":451.668,"text":"是然後對於國產車的一個扶持的部分一定要有更具體的一個操作的方式那之後請部長這邊也隨時給本席一些相關的一些經濟部這邊新的一個方向跟政策有什麼樣進度就隨時跟本辦公室這邊做一個回報好不好好的"},{"start":452.674,"end":475.928,"text":"好 那麼接下來因為8月23號的時候有一個公投案就是河山研議的公投啦那我在想說想先請教一下部長這邊就是說如果那個公投通過了之後假設說這次通過像之前一樣就是2018年以核養綠公投一樣通過了之後的時候我們經濟部作為能源主管機關的時候可不可以承諾會繼續往下走"},{"start":478.462,"end":490.206,"text":"報告委員我想這個核酸研疫公投的部分因為我們基本上的態度 安全安全是不能夠用公投來決定的我想對我們來講這個"},{"start":493.237,"end":510.819,"text":"核電我想總統有指示的非常的清楚兩個必須三個原則我們經濟部就是follow兩個必須三個原則這樣的一個方向理解喔 因為我在想說目前都是用這樣的方向在走因為我想說公投畢竟是一個很重要的一個"},{"start":512.56,"end":539.969,"text":"社會共識的一個狀態那我這邊我想請教當然理解這個部分我們完全理解這個狀態可是目前全球對於整個核電研議的部分其實各個地方都在做我相信美國這方面的技術應該比我們更好然後部長跟美國關係也很好我再相信對於這樣的一個核能安全的部分我沒辦法掌握到最新的一個狀態我這邊想特別另外問一個狀態是因為有一個核三廠的一個"},{"start":540.849,"end":560.571,"text":"管理阶层的一个经理他之前有特别提到说我们在前几年曾经做过一个河山研疫的一个评估然后确实也都觉得说河山要研疫20年在安全上是没有问题的那当时是因为政策的部分所以没有提出来请问部长知不知道这件事情是不是确定有这样的一件事"},{"start":562.639,"end":584.296,"text":"對傳聞我們想我個人是對傳聞沒有具體的這個文件對傳聞是不予置評這個其實不是傳聞所以說我想說請部長這邊特別去了解一下因為他講得非常非常的具體報告委員我想那我是不是請台電來跟您報告一下可以"},{"start":586.004,"end":607.946,"text":"包委員那個因為核電廠當時在在評估內部在評估的時候其實是都還在發電的階段所以跟現在整個已經廚藝下來之後要再去做評估其實就第二個必須裡面我們必須還要再重做一次那結果怎麼樣才能夠才知道所以說之前確實有一個這樣子在還沒有"},{"start":608.601,"end":629.044,"text":"就是停止運轉之前確實有一個這樣的研議的一個評估嗎只是內部初步的評估而已不是說那個非常正式的OK 理解所以有一個內部初步的評估然後確定覺得當時初步評估覺得20年是可以的那現在因為已經年度跟那個其實不是委員講的啦那個只是說當時有一個初步的評估而已"},{"start":629.324,"end":658.03,"text":"OK 那我想因為公投事實上就是一個整個社會民意的一個展現那我希望說行政部門對於整個公投的一個結果能夠給予最大一個尊重主委院長是說他尊重這個公投的結果那我們也希望就是經濟部這邊對於整個公投結果能夠給予最大一個尊重因為其實坦白說目前很多坊間都擔心就是公投過了之後也許就像2018年以和洋綠公投過了一樣"},{"start":658.77,"end":674.389,"text":"政府一樣不去運作公投會變得沒有意義我們希望每一次的公投都是非常有意義有價值的好不好 部長是 報告委員我想經濟部是執行單位經濟部立場就是依法行政所以這個"},{"start":677.432,"end":693.662,"text":"政策如果只是重啟那麼台電公司就會針對這個核電廠進行安全總體檢結構設備組件的這個受其管理設備太舊換新然後補正補強的評估那提出重啟計畫送國際"},{"start":695.843,"end":710.793,"text":"同儕審視那麼以及監管單位和安會的審查那麼一審查意見來改善通過理解那麼我們希望整個行政部門對整個公投的結果能夠給予最高度的一個尊重跟落實去執行以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":129,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時22分）謝謝主席，我想請一下郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天主席安排了一個災後復原的會議，我今天特別針對臺灣的一個產業，他們也碰到一個大災難。我們看一下汽車產業，今年上半年，六大車廠的情況慘不忍睹，包括裕隆、中華車、三陽、和泰車，裕日車還有汎德永業，他們上半年的狀態都嚴重虧損，六大車廠全部都一面倒。我在想，在這一面倒的當中，我們看到中華車跟裕日車衰退都超過三成，這真的是產業上的一個大災難。我想請問一下部長，對於這樣的狀態，經濟部是不是有掌握產業下滑的原因跟影響是在什麼地方？可不可以請部長簡單回答？"],["郭部長智輝：我可不可以請署長說明，他在這方面比較了解。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["邱署長求慧：報告委員，因為這次的關稅談判導致了一些消費者們的觀望，他們期待關稅是不是有進一步降低的可能，這等於是買氣下降造成……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以你覺得是關稅的問題，是大環境的問題，對不對？"],["邱署長求慧：是的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這個狀態當中，我們看到這整個狀態，其實整個1月到7月全部都大幅衰退，而且不分進口車、不分國產車，全部都衰退。我們回到簡報上一頁，在這樣的情況之下，我要特別幫國內國產車的產業請命，他們在碰到這樣的一個大海嘯過程當中，經濟部有沒有什麼具體的方式，有沒有一個具體的政策或方案，針對國產車的部分給予適當的協助跟扶持？"],["邱署長求慧：回報委員，因為我們上次談到這個產業支持方案，最先的意思是希望能夠針對銷美這樣的影響來做產業支持，現在我們可以把這個產業支持方案擴大解釋為，假設我們將來談判完了以後有擴大市場，對內銷的部分如果有造成衝擊，我們也可以適用產業支持方案，所以在這種情況之下，我們也希望能夠爭取將汽車產業列入產業支持方案受衝擊產業的協助範疇。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。關於產業支持方案的部分，坦白說，關稅的問題之前全部的重點都是放在出口的產業，這可以理解，因為是美國掀起這一次對等關稅的戰爭，可是對於整個國內的產業來說，汽車產業就是馬上被槍打到、馬上躺平，在這樣的情況之下，不只是進口車受影響，國內製造的汽車、國產車也受到大量的影響，而國產車的重要性，因為它牽涉到三十多萬人到50萬人的家庭當中的影響，而且它的產業鏈是很複雜、很多的，臺灣有很多汽車零配件的廠商也是國際級的，因此不管是車前的部分或者是車後市場的部分都非常的重要，所以針對國產車這個部分，本席希望經濟部這邊除了產發署，我們希望有更具體的部分，給他們更大的幫助，因為當我們看到整個六大車廠全部都一面倒的時候，我們覺得這個問題非常非常的嚴重，它勢必會影響到整個臺灣現有的汽車產業，也包括所有汽車零組件的部分，所以在這邊請部長、署長，針對這個部分可不可以有進一步的說明？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們從4月份開始就不斷的跟業者在討論，面臨到關稅這樣的進口衝擊，國內這些車廠應該如何來因應？我們都有討論，不斷的在討論，不斷的在溝通，我們希望能夠找到一個適合他們在臺灣發展的方向，因為這還沒有一個確定，每一家廠商……因為他們很多都是外系，比方說日系的、韓系的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，目前所謂的國產車，其實全部都是外國的品牌，他們在臺灣這邊做組裝，其實做組裝這個部分對整個臺灣的汽車產業還是有一些貢獻。"],["郭部長智輝：當然。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不管在就業的部分，或者是在一些相關技術的升級上面來說，都還是很重要的，所以本席希望我們經濟部在考量整個汽車產業的時候，對於國產車跟進口車的部分，雖然目前前七個月，所有的汽車產業全部都倒，可是對於國產車的部分，我們希望經濟部這邊基於整個產業扶持的部分，能夠有更具體的方案提出來。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在儘量來跟他們討論，希望他們能夠發展臺灣的優勢產業。在車輛上面，選擇車的……這個怎麼講？譬如說電動車這一款，是不是在臺灣製造對他們來講是比較有利的？因為它是國際品牌，所以它雖然沒有發展電動車是它的主力，可能都是以油電車為主力，但是我們建議它，是不是把全世界需要生產電動車的可以在臺灣來生產。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，這樣子的一個產業穩定方案，或者說你這邊提到的產業發展方向，大概什麼時候可以提出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都一直在討論，但是我想委員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可不可以儘快給我一個時間？因為我想他們這樣倒成一片的時候，他們需要有一些……"],["郭部長智輝：我們的方法，我們一直要尊重企業、產業，我們是協助他，但是我們不能夠……對於這些產業，我們關心的程度跟委員是一樣的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，針對這個部分，因為國產車這個部分牽涉到太多家庭了，30萬到50萬的家庭都受到國產汽車這樣子的影響，所以我們希望經濟部這邊能夠扮演更好的角色，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：然後對於國產車的扶持部分，一定要有更具體的操作方式。"],["郭部長智輝：我們都聽他們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：之後請部長也隨時給本席一些經濟部相關新的方向跟政策，有什麼樣的進度就隨時跟本辦公室這邊做一個回報，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來，因為8月23號有一個公投案叫做核三延役的公投，我想先請教一下部長，如果公投通過了之後，假設這次公投像之前一樣，就是2018年以核養綠公投一樣通過了之後，我們經濟部作為能源主管機關，可不可以承諾會繼續往下走？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，關於核三延役公投的部分，我們基本上的態度是，安全是不能夠用公投來決定的。對我們來講，關於核電，我想總統指示得非常清楚：兩個必須、三個原則。我們經濟部就是follow「兩個必須、三個原則」這樣的一個方向來努力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。目前都是用這樣的方向在做，我想公投畢竟是一個很重要的共識、社會共識的狀態，我這邊想要請教……"],["郭部長智輝：但是安全絕對不能用公投。"],["鄭委員正鈐：當然、當然，理解，這個部分我們完全理解，可是目前全球對於整個核電延役的部分，其實各個地方都在做，我相信美國這方面的技術應該比我們更好，然後部長跟美國的關係也很好，我相信對於這樣一個核能安全的部分，我們應該能夠掌握到最新的狀態。","我這邊想特別另外問一個狀態，因為有一個核三廠管理階層的經理之前有特別提到，我們在前幾年曾經做過一個核三延役的評估，確實也都覺得核三要延役20年，在安全上是沒有問題的，當時是因為政策的部分所以沒有提出來，請問部長知不知道這件事情？是不是確定有這樣一件事？"],["郭部長智輝：對傳聞，我個人對傳聞，沒有具體的文件，我對傳聞是不予置評。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個其實不是傳聞，所以我想請部長這邊特別去了解一下，因為他講得非常非常的具體。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是不是請台電來跟你報告一下？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員，因為核電廠當時內部在評估的時候，其實都還在發電的階段，所以跟現在整個已經除役下來之後要再去做評估，其實就第二個必須裡面，我們必須還要再重做一次，結果怎麼樣才能夠知道，會再跟各位做報告。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以說之前確實有一個這樣子……在還沒有停止運轉之前，確實有一個這樣的延役評估？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：只是內部初步的評估而已，不是說非常正式的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK、理解，所以有一個內部初步的評估，然後當時初步評估覺得20年是可以的，現在因為已經……"],["蔡副總經理志孟：年度跟那個……其實不是委員講的，只是說當時有一個初步的評估而已。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。我想公投事實上就是整個社會民意的展現，我希望行政部門對於整個公投的結果能夠給予最大的尊重，卓院長是說他尊重公投的結果，我們也希望經濟部這邊對於整個公投的結果能夠給予最大的尊重。其實坦白說，目前很多坊間都擔心公投過了之後，也許就像2018年以核養綠公投過了一樣，政府一樣不去運作，那公投會變得沒有意義，我們希望每一次的公投都是非常有意義、有價值的，好不好？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想經濟部是執行單位，經濟部的立場就是依法行政，所以這個政策如果指示重啟，那麼台電公司就會針對這個核電廠進行安全總體檢、結構設備組件的壽期管理、設備汰舊換新、補正補強的評估，提出重啟計畫送國際同儕審視，以及監管單位核安會的審查，依審查意見來改善通過。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。我們希望整個行政部門對整個公投的結果能夠給予最高度的尊重跟落實去執行。以上，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們接著請林岱樺委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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簽名啊三黨都簽名啊"},{"start":251.269,"end":274.375,"text":"不是像你說的那個樣子就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方"},{"start":274.775,"end":283.797,"text":"你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停 聲音時間請暫停"},{"start":305.97,"end":322.688,"text":"主委會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委會絕對不是綜藝版本"},{"start":326.4,"end":347.446,"text":"好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長"},{"start":348.246,"end":366.359,"text":"可惜啦 部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你 身為部長少講政治 多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長"},{"start":367.844,"end":391.145,"text":"我当时想表达的事情是想要争取能够让更多的行政机构可以好好的讨论政策跟法案的机会我其实在表达的是这件事情所以当时没有办法在超越协商里面好好表达我觉得对于最后的结果让我觉得这是比较可惜的地方我是作为一个行政首长希望能够争取"},{"start":391.986,"end":413.335,"text":"有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴士量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天就要塌下來一樣"},{"start":414.215,"end":434.466,"text":"那現在是這樣嗎 請問到8月1號到現在為止用免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少 天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是 就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右"},{"start":440.689,"end":461.866,"text":"那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事"},{"start":461.886,"end":486.83,"text":"委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個"},{"start":489.124,"end":512.627,"text":"我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員"},{"start":513.327,"end":534.732,"text":"為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入"},{"start":541.604,"end":560.867,"text":"不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情"},{"start":561.631,"end":588.173,"text":"反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種搶外籍這個看護人增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":588.874,"end":615.186,"text":"你在學育健保養 我就給你這麼多移工 好 你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍 害怕的氛圍委員我要跟你說 我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分"},{"start":616.008,"end":636.932,"text":"我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量"},{"start":637.392,"end":659.43,"text":"引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的 是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟京都政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量"},{"start":663.475,"end":674.829,"text":"去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情"},{"start":676.1,"end":698.767,"text":"你們現在提出的六套配套措施老師說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它 準備它"},{"start":699.947,"end":712.932,"text":"三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊"},{"start":721.499,"end":748.881,"text":"我們就一直在醞釀那個法查的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員"},{"start":749.502,"end":754.083,"text":"是爭議性的法案 好嗎就面對它 處理它 好好對待它好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":98,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時10分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早，久違了！去年年底我們立法院三讀通過了就業服務法的修法，通過80歲以上及70到79歲罹患二期以上癌症者不需經巴氏量表的評估就可以聘僱外籍看護，當時勞動部說外籍看護來源不足，恐會造成排擠，導致重症家庭請不到人以及長照體系崩壞。請問部長，既然這個修法的影響這麼大，你們也覺得窒礙難行，為什麼行政院不提覆議呢？你們有提覆議嗎？你們有提覆議嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個案子沒有提覆議。"],["陳委員昭姿：你沒有提覆議？這麼窒礙難行，你們卻沒有提覆議，可見你們心裡知道巴氏量表的確造成很多人的困擾，而且整個民意趨向是如此，所以你們沒有提覆議，是這樣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，第一個，當時修法通過之後，我們就有做過判斷，我們願意進行配套準備，用配套準備來盡力降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長，因為前後經過兩位部長，大家都說這個非常窒礙難行，我想說如果窒礙難行，你們就提覆議嘛，覆議是你們常規在做的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：我們的確認為它會有一些衝擊，對於這些衝擊，勞動部願意規劃配套去盡力降低這些衝擊。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。部長，726大罷免的前一天你發了一篇文，指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案，包括就服法80歲免巴氏量表的修法，你說這是爭議法案喔！你說這些法案有一套操作模式，快速、過水似的出委員會，跳過韓院長主持的朝野協商，限制表決前的逐條發言，甚至在表決前才拿出最高機密版本。我認為你的說法很多不是事實，我要一一破解跟拆除。","部長，您說委員會過水、跳過協商，我們來看一下就服法免巴氏量表的修法過程，總共開了1次公聽會及3天委員會的審查，再加上召委召開的黨團協商，立法院職權行使法可沒有說協商一定要韓院長主持喔，這樣還不算充分討論嗎？光是為了一條修法就討論了三次的委員會……"],["洪部長申翰：委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道其他的像再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例，三、四十條都討論也不過三天而已。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我講得很清楚，其實原本這個案子在立法院是有排韓院長主持的朝野協商的，但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了。我們原本想要帶著一個，我們覺得可能更能夠執行或是衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我只是告訴你，協商沒有……"],["洪部長申翰：當時我們做了這個準備，結果這場協商就被跳過，後來就直接表決了，我覺得這個程序的過程，會讓我們覺得好像少了一些……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你要為你的發言負責任嘛，部長，部長……"],["洪部長申翰：少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會，我講的是這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：你只講在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言，但是事實上發言人數向來都是韓院長帶領三團黨團協商所得的共識，民進黨三長都有在協商結論上簽名，你看柯建銘，我現在也是幹事長，我都見證這件事，你也當過幹事長，如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話，這個協商根本是破局的。所以你說在野黨，都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言，我只要告訴你，這個簽名是三黨都簽名的，不是像你說的那個樣子。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，針對就服法第四十六條修法本身，我自己很清楚，我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案，想要到朝野協商裡面來表達，跟委員好好坐下來談，可是當時這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你們也沒覆議，還有還有，請給我時間。"],["洪部長申翰：也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會，這是我覺得遺憾的地方。"],["陳委員昭姿：你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本，你也當過幹部，難道柯總召沒有教你立法院的議事運作嗎？看一下柯總召怎麼講的。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你聽到了喔？柯總召說，表決前那一剎那拿出來的才是最後的版本。其實每個黨都有所謂的最高機密版本，大家都有，只是說最後那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大，只是一些微調啦。所以我要說可惜啦，部長，可惜你那個726的催票文沒有什麼效果，所以我勸你，身為部長，少講政治、多談政策，否則這個禮拜六的大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，讓我說明一下，作為一個行政首長，我當時想表達的事情是想要爭取能夠讓更多的行政機構可以好好討論政策跟法案的機會……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長、部長，OK了，因為……"],["洪部長申翰：我其實在表達的是這件事情。所以當時沒有辦法在朝野協商裡面好好表達，我覺得對於最後的結果，讓我覺得會是比較可惜的地方……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，請尊重我質詢的時間。"],["洪部長申翰：作為一個行政首長，我是希望能夠爭取有好好討論政策的機會……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我們的主題……"],["洪部長申翰：我的初衷是這個。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我們的主題是有媒體報導，勞動部把免除巴氏量表評估之後，新申請外籍看護的人數列為最高機密，所以讓人質疑，你當時一直喊說會造成搶工，會造成長照體系的崩壞，好像修法一通過，天就要塌下來一樣，那現在是這樣嗎？請問8月1號到現在為止，用免評巴氏量表申請外籍看護的人數有多少？你說有多少？天有塌下來嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：到8月17號最新的數據，目前因為修法新取得資格，並且有來申請的大概是1,450左右，但是我們的確看到，第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍，第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍，意思是到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走，坦白說還需要一段時間觀察。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們當然希望沒有什麼衝擊，但是人民不能接受的是，你不要用恐嚇的方式來回應你不想做的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我並沒有用恐嚇的方式，我們做的事情是……"],["陳委員昭姿：你恐嚇大家會排擠啊，說會請不到人啊！"],["洪部長申翰：是為可能會出現的衝擊做因應的準備。委員，我們不是恐嚇……"],["陳委員昭姿：前幾天……"],["洪部長申翰：我們這六個月很努力在做的事情是，為可能會發生的衝擊去做足……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，部長，請尊重我的時間，部長，部長……"],["洪部長申翰：衝擊準備的因應工作，這是我們在做的，我們不是在恐嚇，我們並沒有恐嚇。"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，他占用我太多時間了。","部長，我前幾天看到新聞提到，針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情，勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國，目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商，是希望優先從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1,000名進來。看到這裡我就有疑問，勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人力，為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢？沒有列入這個部分，為什麼你不列入外籍看護呢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實當時討論印度移工的時候，社會普遍比較能夠有共識接受的是，印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個我知道，那為什麼……"],["洪部長申翰：那這個是……"],["陳委員昭姿：法通過了你不做，你說有困難，然後談判的時候又不把他納入。"],["洪部長申翰：不是談判不納入，委員，你誤會了。當時在討論引進印度移工的時候，包括來立法院報告，當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明，印度移工如果進來的話，會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先引進的場域，這是當時就跟立法院說明得很清楚的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，反正去年就三讀通過了，如果真的想因應你們所擔心的衝擊，那你應該想辦法增加來源，不只是印度，還有其他的來源國，而不是在立法之後，去刻意營造整個社會在搶外籍看護的狀況。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，增加來源國的量能，增加來源國供給引進的量能，這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分……"],["陳委員昭姿：我覺得你在學習健保總額耶……"],["洪部長申翰：蛤？"],["陳委員昭姿：你在學習健保總額，我就給你這麼多的移工，好，你們自己去搶，然後創造社會這種害怕的氛圍。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我要跟你說，我們在這六個月時間，花了很多力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商，希望他們增加引進的數量……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，總之……"],["洪部長申翰：我們在這四個月不斷地跟四個來源國協商這件事情，就是希望增加引進的供給量……"],["陳委員昭姿：我希望你……"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治操作或攻擊的籌碼，這是對長者的照護……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具，我們是很努力的在針對衝擊進行配套的準備……"],["陳委員昭姿：我為什麼這樣說呢？"],["洪部長申翰：這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的，我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面，多麼努力的在這件事情上，包括增加引進的量……"],["陳委員昭姿：請等一下！引進1,000名勞工不是今年初談的，是去年談的，去年何佩珊部長就開始談了。開放巴氏量表的修法已經討論一整年了，你們有相當充分的時間準備，所以去年底法案通過之後，你們就應該跟印度政府協商，但你完全沒有把看護工這部分納在裡面……"],["洪部長申翰：我們在法案通過以後，就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是去年談的，不是今年才談的……"],["洪部長申翰：今年……"],["陳委員昭姿：有充分的時間，已經有充分的時間……"],["洪部長申翰：去年底12月31號三讀通過以後，我們馬上在1月的時候就開始跟來源國接洽，希望能夠增加引進供給的量，這是我們在做的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我跟你說，你們現在提出的六大配套措施，老實說我必須給予肯定，這些作法當然跟隨時間流逝會有所改變，但是該肯定的我會給你肯定。但是我希望未來，各個行政部門首長都一樣，不要存著僥倖的心態，不要存著國會要改組、我可以翻案的心態。好好面對立法院三讀通過的法條，好好地面對它，準備它，去應對民意……"],["洪部長申翰：在12月底三讀通過後，我們馬上就開始準備，從1月開始，不管是在配套，不管是輕重的分流，也包括供給量，我們就開始準備……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要概括承受，勞動部去年就開始談了，何部長就開始跟印度政府談了。"],["洪部長申翰：但是是12月底才三讀通過啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：我們一直在醞釀那個法條的過程當中，你們就當作……就通過以後也不做，你到我辦公室來，也是告訴我說這個窒礙難行，很有困難。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我到你的辦公室是告訴你，我們會進行哪些配套，當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件，我都還留著。我再告訴你，我們做輕重症分流，包括來源國的增量，這都是重要的配套之一。"],["陳委員昭姿：請你不要再說……"],["洪部長申翰：我到你辦公室的時候，都很清楚地告訴委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：請你不要再說通過這個法案是爭議性的法案，好嗎？就面對它、處理它，好好對待它。謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員的發言，也謝謝部長的答詢，也祝昭姿委員喉嚨可以早日康復。","下一位，我們請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":220,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-25","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","陳瑩","盧縣一","楊曜","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","何欣純"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2025-08-20"],"gazette_id":"1147502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量\n表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、繼續審查 (一）委員王\n育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(二）委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人\n自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九\n條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案【逐條\n討論】","agenda_id":"1147502_00002"}}},{"id":"163563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3feaef107a98f0c94d57274d0c66bec70ed9bbdce0c549622d759ce15701171e6a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:11:18 - 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报告员我想人逆己逆我多次到灾区去跟着总统或者院长我们多次去跟着他们去访视这整个灾区我大概应该有"},{"start":102.618,"end":121.503,"text":"這一個多月以來應該有15次以上到災區去訪視我們看了這一次的這個災情確實是非常非常的嚴重所以我一直請我們經濟部的同仁在我們的責任範圍裡面要用最快的速度"},{"start":122.819,"end":135.656,"text":"然后去帮忙把这个灾区能够复建起来比如说我们现在前进办公室成立以后经济部对于这个复建的部分"},{"start":136.806,"end":157.919,"text":"我們的這個水利署跟台水公司我們負責的責任區我們都是最快的速度大家都用同理心來協助處理我們面對的這個問題好 部長來先讓您講到這裡你講到災後復健的部分那我就先來跟您討論一下災後復健的部分"},{"start":158.994,"end":185.307,"text":"當然今天主席排定的議程是討論中小企業不過因為在這一次的丹納斯風災跟728的豪雨其實在高雄的地區受災最嚴重是在山區這些就是我們您所謂的災後復建這是路斷掉了橋斷掉了那經濟部水利署或者是說公路總局花了非常多的時間而且非常快速的"},{"start":186.645,"end":206.665,"text":"幾天幾夜都沒有睡覺在搶救這些道路但是相對來講其實你也可以看到這是很脆弱的一環那講到補償你講中小企業的補償我就是要跟您討論山區這一次受災嚴重但是山區沒有中小企業"},{"start":208.038,"end":227.591,"text":"山区的观光受到了非常大的影响山区的比如说我们的这些小吃部这些零售业者这个农产加工品等等他们其实都受到了相当大的影响但是目前这样看起来并不符合在我们所谓的中小企业的这一些补助里头"},{"start":228.615,"end":257.296,"text":"那這些要怎麼辦你們未來在經濟部跟跨部會比如說跟這個觀光署或者是跟其他的單位有沒有這樣的跨部會的災後的這些補救的措施或者是說要等到我們的這個特別預算通過之後才能來做這一方面我們院長有指示就是說不用等到這個特別預算過後才來處理這個救災的事情"},{"start":258.462,"end":271.394,"text":"我們會用我們現在有的這個預算範圍裡面趕快先去做因為救災最重要所以在您剛所提的這個地區我們是有這個服務業的協助措施的"},{"start":272.096,"end":301.956,"text":"他是属于服务业的一部分我们大概分成服务业服务业你协助他什么哪一方面比如说他是店家他是店家我们就是援助他每一家我们会先给他一万块钱然后协助他做铁卷门招牌摊牌展示架你只要是在受灾地区的全部都可以吗他没有税籍登记没有什么登记的你只要是在灾后地区的全部都可以摊饭我们会把它列为摊饭"},{"start":303.417,"end":321.186,"text":"好那有這些有開始做了嗎現在是開始做已經開始在盤點了是不是應該是在盤點而已吧應該我還沒有聽到有任何已經開始受到我們是盤點透過當地的管理機構先盤點但是我們現在把比較嚴重的地方處理"},{"start":322.346,"end":350.044,"text":"我知道部长当然你要先去处理很多的中小企业因为很多的我们的这个台湾的中小企业占了八成那就业人口其实非常多也是在这些中小企业里头包括嘉义台南其实很多的中小企业受损当然你们要去做这些事情那我现在要跟您谈的是在高雄的这些山区的相对剥夺感是比较大的那他们除了道路受损以外其实电力的中断电力的脆弱"},{"start":351.426,"end":366.745,"text":"我想这个也是您应该要非常重视是 报告委员在未来我们会结合电力的部分我们会优先因为这三区负电比较慢所以我们会先把发电机送过去"},{"start":368.157,"end":386.055,"text":"所以未來就是只要有風災就是設置發電機馬上就到這個發電機就會前置作業先到發電機或者是儲能櫃等等我們都會先做這個其實在去年山陀兒的時候曾文森董事長在這邊也特別也提過我也同樣質詢過這個問題也同樣提過這件事情"},{"start":389.418,"end":411.827,"text":"但是很顯然的這一次應該也沒有因應到也沒有去想到說這個風災會這麼嚴重這個水災會這麼嚴重但是我比較想要再談的就是說我們所謂的電網韌性計畫我覺得台灣的整體電網其實是相對脆弱一個颱風來去年這個是在高雄"},{"start":414.019,"end":434.263,"text":"電線桿倒一排今年是在嘉義跟台南整個電線桿倒一排超過一個禮拜以上的停電所有的台電工程人員不眠不休的搶救甚至還造成人命的傷亡但是這個電網電纜地下化的這個政策我們從三年前開始就說要花5645億去做電網韌性計畫"},{"start":438.624,"end":453.098,"text":"那到底開始做了沒 做了哪些那你們要優先去盤點你們現在說要去盤點一些優先的地區這些優先的地區包括哪些地方是要做優先的地區有沒有去做這一方面的盤點"},{"start":454.429,"end":483.036,"text":"現在開始在做這一方面現在才開始要做現在具體的因為當初您剛才所指導的這個五千多億的這個是全國的是全國的他分十年做嘛這過去提出來的五千多億沒有分十年你們這不是分十年的計畫嗎我們現在要縮短現在要縮短我們沒有辦法等到十年是所以我們現在把它縮短到這個總統的指示到2028年2028年所以三年內要完成對"},{"start":484.389,"end":512.032,"text":"三年內要完成台電有這樣的量能或者是說台電有足夠的足夠的經費可以來做這件事情嗎就我們大家來努力我當然希望你們能夠努力啦但能不能給我一個比較確切比如說你們現在盤點出來哪些地方會是優先報告委員我們可以把這個盤點表跟時程表送送給您好"},{"start":512.711,"end":520.011,"text":"那預算呢台電還有錢嗎5645億你如果分成三年的話一年要將近"},{"start":521.601,"end":547.093,"text":"一千五百 一千六百億台電有錢嗎要編列啦要來編列這個預算不是編列而已啦保電池你現在不只是編列而已不是你編列這個預算你台電就沒錢了你反而也不可以撥補一千億給你你台電怎麼有錢 還要繼續做這個我們現在先把這個所謂太陽能光電太陽能光電的地區然後先支援附近的這個鄉鎮"},{"start":550.914,"end":574.242,"text":"這個是我們一個新的智慧電網因為台電太陽能光電的這個跟我講的電纜地下化是有相關的嗎跟電纜地下化沒有相關對啊我現在是跟你講電纜地下化但是我們要讓大家有電可以用所以我們就是光電第二天太陽出來以後它就能夠產生電所以我們就會把它接到那個變電所然後來供給他們的用電這樣"},{"start":575.782,"end":601.168,"text":"部長我覺得台電其實應該要整體再去做更快速的這些盤點到底你的哪一些區域是優先的是工業區要優先呢還是臨海的這些比較容易受到損害的要做優先呢有一個很重要的例子當初蘇貞昌院長在做平和公路的電纜地下化的時候被罵到臭頭"},{"start":602.435,"end":625.917,"text":"被罵到臭頭但是現在你看經歷了過去年跟今年平和公路一帶沒有任何停電所以被罵不是壞事你們要能夠耐得住撐得住這個壓力做對的事情堅持做對的事情要能夠撐得住這個壓力那當然我們要給台電最多最多的"},{"start":626.949,"end":656.078,"text":"支持跟協助啊 沒電的時候大家都會一直說台電怎麼那麼快可是真的台電需要經費的時候大家又不肯給又說什麼台電很有錢啊台電不需要這個經費啦我覺得這個是沒道理的所以部長我期待就是說台電當然要加緊腳步去做電纜地下化的整體這些電網韌性的政策要趕快加緊腳步去做那對於預算的爭取其實台電也要據理力爭"},{"start":657.025,"end":658.05,"text":"好不好好好謝謝謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":67,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時11分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。我想經歷過丹娜絲颱風跟七二八的豪雨，對您來講心情上應該是像洗三溫暖，這應該也是您有史以來第一次有這樣的機會實際進入到災區去勘災，了解到天災對於整體環境所受到的影響，您個人有什麼看法？您剛剛的報告其實就是數據上面政府現在應該要補助多少、補助多少，但是我想您在經濟部的這個位置上面，其實看到在這樣的風災災後，政府有很多的重建工作要做，不只是現在的這些paperwork，您覺得現行臺灣整體在面對到這樣子的一個巨大天災的時候，經濟部有什麼可以再多做一些的，或者是我們現在整體的建設上有什麼不足的？部長，我想聽一下你的看法。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想人溺己溺，我多次跟著總統或者院長去訪視災區，我這一個多月以來到災區訪視應該有15次以上，我們看了這一次的災情，確實是非常非常的嚴重，所以我一直請經濟部的同仁在我們的責任範圍裡面，要用最快的速度去幫忙把災區復建起來。比如我們現在前進辦公室成立以後，經濟部對於復建的部分，水利署跟台水公司對於我們負責的責任區，都是以最快的速度在處理，大家都用同理心來協助處理我們面對的問題。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，部長先讓您講到這裡，你講到災後復建，那我就先來跟您討論一下災後復建的部分。當然今天主席排定的議程是討論中小企業，不過因為這一次的丹娜絲風災跟七二八的豪雨，高雄地區受災最嚴重的其實是在山區。簡報上的這些就是您所謂的災後復建，這是路斷掉了，橋斷掉了，經濟部水利署或者是公路總局花了非常多的時間，而且也非常快速的進行搶救，幾天幾夜都沒有睡覺在搶救這些道路，但是相對來講，其實你也可以看到，這是很脆弱的一環。","再來，你講到中小企業的補償，我就是要跟您討論，山區這一次受災嚴重，山區沒有中小企業，但是山區的觀光受到了非常大的影響，比如說這些小吃部、零售業者、農產加工品等等，他們其實都受到了相當大的影響，但是目前這樣看起來並不符合在所謂中小企業的這一些補助裡頭，那這些要怎麼辦？未來你們經濟部在跨部會的部分，比如跟觀光署或者是跟其他的單位有沒有災後的補救措施？或者是要等到特別預算通過之後才能來做這一方面？"],["郭部長智輝：院長有指示，不用等到特別預算通過後才來處理　救災的事情，我們會就我們現有的預算範圍內趕快先去做，因為救災最重要，所以在您剛才所提的這個地區，我們是有服務業的協助措施，它是屬於服務業的一部分，我們大概分成……"],["邱委員議瑩：協助什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：服務業跟……"],["邱委員議瑩：服務業你協助它什麼？哪一些方面？"],["郭部長智輝：譬如說他是店家，我們就援助他們，每一家我們會先給他們1萬塊錢，協助他們做鐵捲門、招牌、展示架……"],["邱委員議瑩：那他們沒有稅籍登記，只要是在受災地區的全部都可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：他們沒有稅籍登記、沒有什麼登記的，只要是災後地區的全部都可以？"],["郭部長智輝：攤販，我們會把他們列為攤販。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，那這一些有開始做了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在開始做。"],["邱委員議瑩：已經開始在盤點了，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們都……"],["邱委員議瑩：應該是在盤點而已吧？我還沒有聽到任何已經開始受到……"],["郭部長智輝：我們透過當地的管理機構先盤點，但是我們現在先把比較嚴重的地方做處理，接著我們就……"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我知道，當然你要先去處理很多中小企業，因為我們臺灣的中小企業占了八成，就業人口其實有非常多是在這些中小企業裡頭，包括嘉義、臺南有很多的中小企業受損，你們當然要去做這些事情。我現在要跟您談的是，在高雄山區的相對剝奪感是比較大的，他們除了道路受損以外，其實電力的中斷、電力的脆弱，我想這也是您應該要非常重視的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，未來我們會優先結合電力的部分，因為山區復電比較慢……"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們會先把發電機送過去。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以未來只要有風災……"],["郭部長智輝：就設置發電機，馬上就到……"],["邱委員議瑩：發電機的前置作業先到，但是……"],["郭部長智輝：發電機或者是儲能櫃等等，我們都會先去做。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實在去年山陀兒的時候，曾文生董事長在這邊也特別提過，我也同樣質詢過這個問題，也同樣提過這件事情，但是很顯然的，這一次應該沒有因應到，也沒有想到風災會這麼嚴重，水災會這麼嚴重，而我比較想要談的是電網韌性計畫，我覺得臺灣的整體電網其實相對脆弱，一個颱風來，去年在高雄電線桿倒一排，今年是在嘉義跟臺南，整個電線桿倒一排，超過一個禮拜以上的停電，所有台電工程人員不眠不休的搶救，甚至還造成人命的傷亡。關於電纜地下化的政策，從3年前就開始說要花5,645億去做電網韌性計畫，那到底開始做了沒？做了哪些？你們說要先去盤點一些優先的地區，這些優先的地區包括哪些？哪些地方叫做優先的地區？有沒有去做這一方面的盤點？"],["郭部長智輝：現在開始在做這一方面……"],["邱委員議瑩：現在才開始要做啊？"],["郭部長智輝：現在具體的……因為您剛才所指導的這個五千多億是全國的。"],["邱委員議瑩：是，他們分10年做，過去提出來的五千多億不是10年的計畫嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在要縮短，我們沒有辦法等到10年。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們現在依據總統的指示，把它縮短到2028年。"],["邱委員議瑩：2028年？所以3年內要完成？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：3年內要完成，台電有這樣的量能，或者台電有足夠的經費來做這件事情嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大家來努力。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我現在是這樣說，我當然希望你們能夠努力，但能不能給我一個比較確切的，譬如說你們現在盤點出來，哪些地方會是優先？這是可以說的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們可以把盤點表跟時程表送給你。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，那預算呢？台電還有錢嗎？5,645億如果分成3年的話，1年要將近1,600億，台電有錢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：要編列，要來編列這個預算，我們先把……"],["邱委員議瑩：不是編列而已，部長，現在不是只有編列而已……"],["郭部長智輝：不是……"],["邱委員議瑩：你編列這個預算，台電本來就沒錢了，立法院也不要撥補1,000億給你，台電怎麼會有錢可以繼續做這個？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在先把所謂太陽能光電的地區，先支援附近的鄉鎮，這是我們新的智慧電網，因為台電……"],["邱委員議瑩：太陽能光電跟我講的電纜地下化有相關喔？"],["郭部長智輝：跟電纜地下化沒有相關。"],["邱委員議瑩：對啊，我現在是跟你講電纜地下化。"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們要讓大家有電可以用，所以我們的光電是在第二天太陽出來以後就能夠產生電，我們會把它接到變電所，然後供給他們用電。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我覺得台電其實應該要整體再去做更快速的盤點，到底哪一些區域是優先的？是工業區要優先呢？還是臨海比較容易受到損害的要優先？有一個很重要的例子，當初蘇貞昌院長在做屏鵝公路的電纜地下化時被罵到臭頭，但是現在你看經歷了去年跟今年，屏鵝公路一帶沒有任何停電。所以被罵不是壞事，你們要能夠耐得住、撐得住壓力，堅持做對的事情要能夠撐得住壓力，當然我們要給台電最多最多的支持跟協助，沒電的時候大家都會一直說：台電怎麼不趕快來？可是台電真的需要經費時，大家又不肯給，又說台電很有錢，台電不需要這個經費，我覺得這是沒道理的。所以部長，我期待的是，台電當然要加緊腳步去做電纜地下化的整體電網韌性政策，要趕快加緊腳步去做。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：對於預算的爭取，其實台電也要據理力爭，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在請鄭正鈐委員詢答。","在鄭委員詢答前，我們先確定議事錄。請問各位同仁，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤？（無）沒有，議事錄確定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":54,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-20","speakers":["謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","林岱樺","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":990.748,"end":991.171,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1166.742,"end":1167.145,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1847.458,"end":1848.062,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":2018.192,"end":2025.764,"text":"好 各位請就座好 初期委員已足法定人數 現在開會請議事人員先讀上次會議議事錄請"},{"start":2033.993,"end":2051.412,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期交通委員會第十九次全體委員會議議事錄 時間一百一四年八月四日星期一上午九十二分至 下午一十四八分 地點本院紅樓二零一會議室 主席為洪孟凱等十四人 列席為李坤晨等八人 列席關於社會發展部政務次長"},{"start":2052.052,"end":2078.451,"text":"圈和民等 主席林昭及委員國城 報告四項 宣讀上次會議議事錄 決定議事錄確定 邀請數位發展部部長等進行專題報告並備諮詢 本日會議由數位發展部政務次長圈和民等報告後 既有委員李昆哲等二十人提出質詢 均經數位發展部政務次長圈和民及相關人員分別予以答覆 決定一 報告及詢討完畢 二 委員何新淳等二人所提"},{"start":2079.211,"end":2104.628,"text":"書面諮詢均列入紀錄 並刊登公報 三委員諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分 請稅務發展部及相關機關盡速與書面答覆 散會宣讀完畢好 謝謝現在介紹在場委員我們林倩琦委員好那官員就不要了"},{"start":2107.304,"end":2122.095,"text":"好 現在我們來介紹列席官員我們交通部政務次長陳彥博次長公共運輸監理師師長胡迪取師長綜合規劃師我們張垂龍市長陸珍道安師副市長廖鎮元市長華智處處長謝鴻達處長"},{"start":2135.185,"end":2161.55,"text":"公路局局長林福山局長高速公路局程文瑞局長鐵道局檢派政工程師林嘉宜國道台鐵公司副總經理賴新榮環境部大氣體師記政李承陽內政部警政署交通組組長黃文哲"},{"start":2164.884,"end":2187.371,"text":"國土署管理署組長蔡益強衛福部醫事師專門委員郭威中華務部參事廖江憲專門委員邱離芬行政宿眾懲戒廳法官陳彥霖"},{"start":2192.99,"end":2199.414,"text":"國際標準 經濟部標準局 繼政陳榮富國營事業管理師 副市長劉啟孝勞動部勞動保險師 莊委黃晴雀農業部農業輔導師 繼政王東良前事部退伍師 莊委朱美英"},{"start":2221.198,"end":2233.907,"text":"國防部資源管理處科長楊詩平教育部國民教育署協安組莊委洪貞薇財政部國庫署檢任機合楊博翔金融監理師管理保險局莊委王齊華"},{"start":2250.735,"end":2279.609,"text":"個人資料保護組科長曾傑行政院主計處公務預算處莊委王淺凱好 以上接下來本日會議安排道路交通管理處罰條例及公路罰以及停車場罰等修正草案審查"},{"start":2281.513,"end":2308.173,"text":"本日會議議程依序依6月11日以及5月12日經交通委員會會議完成詢答程序因此接下來進行逐條審查為就以本次會議新排提案由委員提案說明請林倩琦委員說明"},{"start":2322.322,"end":2338.676,"text":"主席 府會同仁本期今天提出道路交通管理處處罰條例第21條的修正草案主要是因為依據交通部的統計在2023年因少年無照駕駛所導致的死傷人數"},{"start":2339.457,"end":2367.462,"text":"高達六千四百八十五人那麼其中死亡的人數佔了一百八十八人佔該年度少年交通死亡總乘數的這個七成那這顯示無照駕駛也是少年用路安全很重要很嚴重的一個致命風險之一那另外呢在這五年來六十五歲以上的高齡者的無照駕駛情形也有逐年增加那麼二零二三年呢因為無照駕駛所造成的交通死亡比例已經達到了百分之十五"},{"start":2368.462,"end":2393.357,"text":"可見無照駕駛的風險不是只有限於少年群體那麼高齡者同樣是屬於高風險族群那麼現行的這個規定對於無照駕駛的處罰金額是六千元到兩萬四千的這個額度那似乎沒有辦法發揮這個嚇阻的效果因此本席建議將罰還金額提高到九千"},{"start":2394.378,"end":2419.815,"text":"至三萬六的這個區間並同步調整累犯罰則以及汽車所有人連帶責任之處罰藉此能夠提升全面的制度效能那麼這個修法的核心目標就是要有效遏止無照駕駛的行為減少重大交通事故的發生保護全體用路人的生命安全那麼以上的說明敬請大家支持謝謝"},{"start":2421.311,"end":2441.793,"text":"好 謝謝我們林倩琦委員的提案說明現在本日會議議程序道路交通管理處罰條例以及公路滑停車長滑等所有的修正草案"},{"start":2443.294,"end":2469.389,"text":"請先一併先讀條文在主條進行協商如有修正動議以協商到該條文的時候再行先讀現在請先讀但特別跟各位委員做說明報告我也要拜託我們主管機關這些條文希望有關單位對於"},{"start":2470.77,"end":2480.961,"text":"個人對於這些的意見或者綜合的看法這個等一下請主管機關也一併針對問題針對問題這樣逐條審查會較為迅速跟準確所以這個我要拜託出席的各單位要有一個結論跟看法"},{"start":2494.514,"end":2509.879,"text":"這個宣讀大約時間是50分鐘50分鐘所以也請各位委員50分鐘一定要來逐條審查現在請我們議事人員宣讀所有條文"},{"start":2512.694,"end":2533.664,"text":"大陸交通管理處罰條第五十四案條文對照表 主宣讀各題案條文之修正刪除或增訂文字 取均同線性條文 為徐巧心等提案第七條之一 第一項第三款前段 在第三十一條的後面 增訂第四項等文字 第五款修正"},{"start":2535.615,"end":2550.247,"text":"第15款修正為第55條第一項第一款第二款第4款不依順行自方向或並排臨時停車或第5款委員邱政軍等提案第12條第一項的續文中斷"},{"start":2554.872,"end":2570.132,"text":"修正為新台幣一萬兩千元以上三萬六千元以下罰款第二項自第四項修正為前項第一款中屬未依公路法規定取得安全審驗合格證明及第二款第九款之車輛並沒"},{"start":2571.594,"end":2587.472,"text":"入資第三款第四款資牌照扣繳資第五款資第七款資牌照吊銷資第一項第四款第六款及第八款資汽車當場一致保管並通知汽車所有人限期領回資汽車未領用有效牌照懸掛他車號牌"},{"start":2589.835,"end":2603.53,"text":"或為懸掛號牌與道路停車者依第一項規定處罰汽車並當場一致保管及扣腳旗牌照委員吳佩義等提案第14條"},{"start":2605.332,"end":2622.65,"text":"刪除第一項 維吾爾先祥等提案第十六條第一項第二款將中斷排氣管等文字予以刪除然後增訂第七款文字內容為棄裝置未符合主管機關認證之非原廠排氣管第二項 默劇"},{"start":2624.973,"end":2638.592,"text":"在噪音器物並應沒入的後面徵訂第七款是非原廠排氣管認證規定由交通部會同有關機關訂定之委員劉許廷等提案第16條"},{"start":2640.194,"end":2658.102,"text":"在第一項的第一款聚首 增訂排氣管以外等文字 第二項的前段至第五款的後面做修正 修正為並因命 其他所有人於三十日內以自給之費用參加臨時檢驗"},{"start":2661.927,"end":2684.927,"text":"委員顏寬恆等23人提案第16條在第一項的續文罰款修正為3600元以下罰款第二項的中段修正為第6款除以最高額處罰外因則令其定期檢驗或增加檢驗次數委員留許提等提案新增"},{"start":2687.611,"end":2694.986,"text":"第16條之一 排氣管之一 動步一規定申報登記者處汽車所有人新台幣1800元以上3600元以下罰還"},{"start":2698.792,"end":2720.022,"text":"汽車有前項情形則並應命 汽車所有人於15日內以自己之費用參加臨時檢驗必要時得於期限戒制前3日內經汽車所有人之申請延長15日但以一次為限 汽車不依前項鎖定期限參加臨時檢驗者處 汽車所有人新台幣1800元以上"},{"start":2723.204,"end":2736.064,"text":"以下發還 與其15日以上者並調扣其牌照自檢驗合格後發還 與其兩個月以上者註銷其牌照 經檢驗不合格這汽車於15日內仍未修復並申請"},{"start":2738.668,"end":2754.088,"text":"或復驗人不合格者調扣起牌照委員修正金等提案第21條在第一項的續文罰還修正為一萬兩千元以上三萬六千"},{"start":2755.409,"end":2770.145,"text":"以下罰款第三 第三項的默劇罰款修正為新台幣兩萬四千元罰款為林思銘等十八人提案第二十一條第一項的續文罰款修正為三萬元以上六萬元以下罰款第二項的手續"},{"start":2771.526,"end":2791.734,"text":"以及中斷罰緩修正為於一年內違反前項規定罰緩修正為新臺幣4萬元罰緩第三項的莫具罰緩修正為3萬元罰緩第六項的第六項的中斷"},{"start":2793.806,"end":2814.565,"text":"在罰還後面修正為並吊扣其汽車牌照三個月 兩年內違反兩次者吊扣其汽車牌照六個月 兩年內違反三次以上者吊扣其汽車牌照一年在第七項的莫具徵訂14歲以上未成年之人需與"},{"start":2816.006,"end":2840.14,"text":"其法定代理人或經負人一同參加道路交通安全講習4小時為林月琴等提案第21條立項的序文默劇作修正為並當場一致保管該汽車第6項修正為汽車駕駛人有立項第1款至第5款是前行之一吊扣該汽車牌照一個月並於一致保管該汽車時扣繳其牌照但汽車所有人已盡"},{"start":2841.854,"end":2870.733,"text":"以善盡查證駕駛人駕駛執照資格之注意或縱加以相當注意而人不免發生違規者不在此限政定第八項汽機車駕駛人有第一項第一款至第五款之情形之一年滿十八歲之同車乘客處新台幣三千元以上一萬兩千元以下罰還但年滿七十歲心智障礙或汽車運輸業之乘客不在此限委員魯明澤等提案第二十一條第一項的續運罰還"},{"start":2872.054,"end":2883.787,"text":"修正為一萬兩千元以上四萬八千元以下罰款第二項的後段如照是治人的後面徵定受傷等文字"},{"start":2885.82,"end":2899.065,"text":"委員陳俊宜等提案第二十一條第一項續文罰緩以及墨具修正為六千元以上三萬六千元以下罰緩並當場一致保管該汽車第二項中斷修正為依第一項鎖定罰緩最高而處罰自並當場一致保管該汽車第二項"},{"start":2909.709,"end":2920.319,"text":"第六項在吊扣騎汽車方面依序修正處罰依序修正為三個月六個月一年"},{"start":2923.352,"end":2944.926,"text":"為羅資強等提案第21條 第一項的續文罰款修正為一萬兩千元以上三萬六千元以下罰款第二項罰款以及默劇修正為儲新台幣三萬元以上十萬元以下罰款並沒入該汽車 第三項的默劇罰款修正為新台幣三萬六千元以下罰款 第二項的中段修正"},{"start":2945.606,"end":2957.554,"text":"委員除一第一項規定處罰房外並沒入該汽車委員陳慶威等提案第二十一條同委員盧明澤等提案委員黃敬豪等提案第二十一條"},{"start":2959.622,"end":2981.333,"text":"增訂第一項並將現有第一款自第五款第九款一列為第一款自第六款增訂自第一項續文為汽車駕駛人有下列情形之一者處五新台幣六萬元以上二十萬元以下罰還並當場禁止其駕駛及目錄該駕駛之車輛第六款"},{"start":2984.872,"end":3010.76,"text":"第六款修正為其他為依駕駛執照之執照條件規定駕車 現有第一項續文及第六款至第八款一列 增訂為第二項續文及第一款至第三款 現有第二項至第七項 第一為第三項至第八項 第一後第五項的前段修正為第一項第六款等文字"},{"start":3013.686,"end":3029.089,"text":"第1後的第7項修正為汽車所有人允許第1項第1款至第5款自違規駕駛人駕駛其汽車者因依第1項規定處罰但其已散盡查證駕駛人駕駛執照資格之注意或重加以"},{"start":3029.75,"end":3052.772,"text":"相當注意 而仍不免發生違規則不在此限 委員李昆城等提案第21條 第一項的續穩罰款修正為一萬兩千元以上三萬六千元以下罰款 第三項的莫具罰款修正為兩萬四千元罰款 委員邱若驊等提案第21條 第一項的續穩罰款修正為四萬八千元以下罰款"},{"start":3055.922,"end":3071.888,"text":"委王逸川等提案第二十一條 第三項的默劇 罰緩修正為加罰新台幣兩萬四千元 罰緩維尼斯敏等二十一人 提案第二十一條 第一項的訊 罰緩做修正以及默劇"},{"start":3073.32,"end":3100.858,"text":"做徵定 罰緩修正為6萬元以上10萬元以下罰緩莫具徵定且3年內不得考領駕駛執照 第二項修正為汽車駕駛人違反前項規定兩次以上者處新臺幣6萬元罰緩並當場禁止其駕駛 並應即次累罰 如照示自人重傷或死亡因陌入該汽車終身不得考領駕駛執照 第三項的莫具罰緩修正為加罰新臺幣6萬元罰緩並應"},{"start":3104.119,"end":3105.269,"text":"計次 雷發"},{"start":3106.946,"end":3135.076,"text":"第六項的中斷修正違並調扣其汽車牌照四個月兩年內違反兩次者調扣其汽車牌照八個月 兩年內違反三次以上者調扣其汽車牌照十二個月 第七項的莫具徵定十四歲以上未成年之人需與其法定代理人或監護人一同參加道路交通安全講習"},{"start":3136.48,"end":3149.973,"text":"4小時為油耗等提案第21條 第一項的蓄穩緩緩及墨具均與修正為12000元以上 48000元以下緩緩並當場一致保管該汽車 六項中段修正為48000元緩緩並當場一致保管該汽車 第三項的墨具緩緩修正為24000元緩緩"},{"start":3169.772,"end":3194.83,"text":"為吳祺銘等提案第21條 第一項的續運中斷後作修正 為一萬兩千元以上三萬六千元以下罰還 並當場禁止其駕駛其情節重大者的扣留該車輛 並已請住管機關沒入資 第二項的中斷後作修正 三萬六千元罰還並當場禁止其駕駛 如肇事致人重傷或死亡的沒入該汽車外 應加強"},{"start":3195.911,"end":3215.872,"text":"責任追究並得令其參加交通安全在教育課程及接受交通心理評估 增訂第8項文字內容為65歲以上高齡者首次違反 第一項第一款規定者交通主管機關應通知其法定代理人或子系寫清並得令其參與高齡駕駛人交通安全講習課程交通主管機關得訂定的"},{"start":3217.954,"end":3240.447,"text":"訂定定期審查查核及輔導高齡無照駕駛人之管理措施為您遷期等提案第二十一條第一項的續緩緩修正為九千九千元以上三萬六千元以下緩緩第二項的中斷緩緩修正為三萬六千元緩緩第三項的莫具緩緩修正為一萬八千元緩緩第二項的中斷"},{"start":3242.997,"end":3257.923,"text":"調扣方面做修正為2個月6個月1年 委員王宏威等提案第21條定向的續用罰款做修正為6萬元以上10萬元以下罰款莫居徵定且3年內不得考考令"},{"start":3259.224,"end":3279.439,"text":"駕駛執照第二項修正為汽車駕駛違反前項規定兩次以上者處新台幣兩萬四千元罰完並當場禁止其駕駛並應計次累罰如造事致重傷或死亡應沒入該汽車終身不得考領駕駛執照第三項的莫具徵定並應計次累罰第六項的中斷"},{"start":3281.02,"end":3303.244,"text":"修正為並調扣其汽車牌照4個月5年內違反3次以上者調扣其汽車牌照12個月第7項的莫具徵定14歲以上未成年之人需與其法定代理人或經負人一同參加道路交通安全講習4小時委員柯志恩等提案第21條第1項續緩罰緩修正為12000元以上36000元以下罰緩第2項中斷罰緩修正為3萬元以上"},{"start":3310.57,"end":3338.716,"text":"10萬元以下罰還 第三項的默拒罰還修正為3萬6千元 罰還第6項的中斷修正為並調扣其汽車牌照6個月5年內違反兩次者 得沒入該汽車為耐熱容等提案第21條 第一項的續允罰還修正為1萬2千元以上4萬8千元以下罰還 第二項罰還以及默拒均與修正為4萬8千元罰還 而默拒修正為如肇事致人重傷或死亡 沒入該汽車"},{"start":3339.756,"end":3362.249,"text":"委員羅明財等提案第二十一條第一項的序文罰緩修正為一萬八千元以上七萬兩千元以下罰緩墨具徵訂且三年內不得考領駕駛執照第二項的罰緩修正為七萬兩千元罰緩墨具修正為一末路該汽車終身不得考領駕駛執照第三項的墨具徵訂必應計次累罰第六項的中斷"},{"start":3364.671,"end":3392.032,"text":"關於吊扣部分依序修正為3個月6個月12個月第7項的墨具增訂14歲以上未成年之人需與其法定代理人或監護人一同參加道路交通安全獎刑4小時為紅夢凱等提案第21條第1項的續文划環修正為12000元以上36000元以下划環墨具修正為並當場一致保管該汽車第2項的中短"},{"start":3395.53,"end":3419.988,"text":"中斷後修正為儲新台幣三萬六千元罰還並當場一致保管該汽車如肇事致人重傷或死亡因沒入該汽車並終身不得考領駕駛執照 第三項的默劇修正為所處罰還最高額加倍處罰之第六項的中斷 關於雕刻的部分修正為三個月六個月一年"},{"start":3423.142,"end":3443.579,"text":"為樓庭委等提案第二十一條 第一項的續用罰緩以及墨具均勻修正為儲新台幣一萬兩千元以上三萬六千元以下罰緩並當場一致保管該車輛 第二項的中段罰緩修正為三萬六千元罰緩 第三項的墨具罰緩修正為最高額加倍處罰次 第六項的中段徵訂"},{"start":3446.441,"end":3462.647,"text":"處最高額最高額等文字 調扣的部分依序修正為三個月六個月一年委員張宏祿等提案第二十一條 地下的蓄穩滑環做修正為一萬兩千元以"},{"start":3464.229,"end":3490.098,"text":"一萬兩千元以上 三萬六千元以下罰款墨具徵訂並一致保管該汽車等文字 第六項的中斷修正違並調扣其汽車牌照三個月三年內違反 兩次者調扣其汽車牌照六個月五年內違反 三次以上者調扣其汽車十二個月委員蔡啟昌等提案第二十"},{"start":3492.441,"end":3510.269,"text":"第二十一條 第一項蓄穩滑緩墨以及墨具均與修正為一萬元以上三萬六千元以下罰完並當場一致 保管該汽車 第二項中斷修正為三萬六千元罰完並當場一致 保管該汽車 現行第六項修正為第六項及第七項"},{"start":3511.63,"end":3539.597,"text":"文字內容為違反第一項第一款至第五款至情形之一於一致保管該汽車時扣繳其牌照並吊扣該汽車牌照三個月五年內違反兩次者吊扣該汽車牌照六個月五年內違反三次以上者吊扣該汽車牌照一年 汽車所有人允許第一項第一款至第五款至違規駕駛人駕駛其汽車者並依第一項規定處罰處罰緩 政定第九項文字內容為汽車所有人以"},{"start":3540.197,"end":3562.177,"text":"散進查證 駕駛人駕駛執照資格是注意或重加以相當注意而能不免發生違規者 機車所有人不受本條之處罰委員林俊憲等提案第二十一條除第一項的訊號為此 現行六千元以上外 其餘修正均同委員蔡啟昌等提案之修正內容"},{"start":3567.03,"end":3581.93,"text":"法環後段後段修正後文字為36,000元以下法環並當場一致保管該汽車委員層數月等提案第21條第1項的續用法環以及莫具均與修正為6,000元以上3萬"},{"start":3582.971,"end":3599.941,"text":"六千元以下罰還並當場一致保管該汽車 第二項中斷修正為依第一項鎖定罰還最高而處罰之並當場一致保管該汽車 若汽車駕駛人年滿十八歲 公路主管機關的公佈其姓名照片及違法事實 第二項修正為汽車駕駛人 駕駛"},{"start":3603.303,"end":3623.91,"text":"有第一項第一款 自第五款情形之一者調扣其駕駛 則其車牌照三個月並於一致保管該汽車時 扣繳其牌照五年內違反兩次者調扣其汽車牌照六個月五年內 違反三次以上者調扣其汽車牌照一年 但其車所有人已散盡 查證駕駛人駕駛執照資格之注意或重加以"},{"start":3624.77,"end":3643.129,"text":"相當注意而能不免發生違規則不在此限 增訂第八項文字內容為汽車駕駛人有第一項第一款字 第五款情形之一者年滿十八歲之同車乘客處新台幣三千米以上一萬兩千元以下方案但年滿七十歲新字障礙或汽車運輸業之乘客不在此限"},{"start":3644.21,"end":3656.543,"text":"委王一川等提案第二十一條 第三項的默劇 罰緩修正為加罰新台幣八萬元 罰緩委林生明等提案第二十一條之一 第一項的續文 罰緩可預修正"},{"start":3658.363,"end":3687.33,"text":"為八萬元以上十二萬元以下罰還 莫具徵定且三年內不得考考領駕駛執照 第二項修正為汽車駕駛人違反前項規定兩次以上者 處新臺幣十萬元罰還並當場禁止其駕駛並應計次累罰 如照示致人重傷或死亡因沒入該汽車終身不得考領駕駛執照 第三項的莫具罰還修正為加罰加罰新臺幣八萬元罰還並應計次累罰 六項修正為違反第一項"},{"start":3687.99,"end":3706.239,"text":"警行並調扣該汽車牌照十個月 兩年內違反兩次者 調扣該汽車牌照八個月 兩年內違反三次以上者 調扣該汽車牌照十二個月 第二項的中斷將現行或重加以相當之注意而等文字欲刪除"},{"start":3707.95,"end":3733.262,"text":"委員拆棄艙等提案第二十一條之一 第一項的序文默劇修正為並當場一致保管該汽車 第二項的中段修正為並當場一致保管該汽車 第五項的前段以及默劇修正為於一致保管該汽車時扣繳期牌照並調扣該汽車牌照三個月 默劇修正為扣該汽車牌照一年 委員林俊憲等提案第二十一條之一 同委員拆棄艙等"},{"start":3734.583,"end":3738.594,"text":"提案 文成序月等提案第二十一條之一"},{"start":3739.741,"end":3766.833,"text":"第一項的序文默劇修正為並當場一致保管該汽車 第二項中斷修正為並當場一致保管該汽車 若汽車駕駛人年滿十八歲 公路主管機關得公布其姓名照片及違法事實 六項修正為違反第一項情形並調扣該汽車牌照三個月並於一致保管該汽車時扣腳期牌照 牌照五年內違反兩次者調扣該汽車牌照六個月 五年內違反三次以上者調扣該汽車牌照一年"},{"start":3768.71,"end":3777.563,"text":"委員寬恒等提案第二十七條將現行的第二項以及第三項均與三處委員林德甫等提案第三十條第一項的第二款"},{"start":3778.837,"end":3802.886,"text":"在貨物的後面徵訂物品等文字然後徵訂第四項文字內容為第一項第二款載運貨物物品散落於車道無法及時清除時應急通知該管機關協助處理自其所需費用由機車駕駛人或機車所有人負擔散落物由該管機關主動協助處理者一同"},{"start":3803.726,"end":3822.741,"text":"委員廖欣祥等提案第33條第二項的默劇徵定汽車行駛於高速公路因本項行為至第一項行車速度超過規定之最高速限1.2倍內不予處罰委員蔡奇昌等提案第35條第6項修正為汽車駕駛人駕車發生交通事故涉犯刑法第185條之三第1項"},{"start":3826.806,"end":3855.275,"text":"第一款或第二款等罪嫌疑拒絕接受或發生事故無法實施第一項第一款測試檢定者司法警察官或司法警察的報請檢察官核發鑑定許可書將其強制依由受委託醫療或檢驗機構對其實施血液檢體採樣及酒精濃度測試檢定以下簡稱血液測試檢定有相當理由認為情況及迫使司法警"},{"start":3856.355,"end":3881.585,"text":"司法司法警察官或司法警察得將其先行已由醫療或檢驗機構實施血液測試檢定 必應於實施後24小時內呈報蓋管檢察官許可檢察官認為不應許可者應於3日內撤銷之數受血液測試檢定者得於受血液 測試檢定後室內申請蓋管法院撤銷之 增訂第13項文字內容為第6項血液"},{"start":3885.347,"end":3909.907,"text":"測試檢定結果之收集處理或利用因依個人資料保護法相關規定辦理並僅得作為執法利用有關血液採集測試檢定保存銷毀安全維護等措施等程序方法數量期限及其他相關事項辦法由內政部會商衛生福利部法務部及交通部定制委任得福等提案第35條第9項的聚首徵訂"},{"start":3913.086,"end":3927.248,"text":"增訂文字為本條例以中華民國某年某月某日修正公布條文施行之日起在後段的部分也增訂文字文字內容為或於十年內第三次違反第一項或第四項規定且未臨有駕駛"},{"start":3928.79,"end":3955.149,"text":"執照駕車駕駛執照經調銷註銷或調扣期間駕車委員邱若驊等提案第35條第一項的續文中斷 罰還的部分修正為18萬元以下罰還 台灣民眾黨黨團提案第35條第6項修正為汽車駕駛人肇事拒絕接受肇事無法實施第一項第一款測試之檢定者交通勤務警察的報請檢察官核發建立許可書將其強制依由委託醫療或檢驗機構對其實施協議"},{"start":3958.251,"end":3972.359,"text":"酒精濃度制裁樣劑測試檢定有相當理由認為情況及迫使交通勤務警察得將其先行已由受委託醫療或檢驗機構實施學藝酒精濃度制裁樣劑測試檢定並應於實施後二十四小時內呈報蓋管檢察官許可"},{"start":3980.078,"end":4007,"text":"檢察官認為不應准許者因爲三日內撤銷至受血液酒精濃度之採樣及測試檢定者等於受採樣及測試檢定後失內申請該管法院撤銷之增添第13項文字內容為第6項血液酒精濃度之採樣及測試檢定之檢體保存銷毀監督集合等相關事項的辦法由交通部會同法務部及內政部定之"},{"start":4013.826,"end":4041.232,"text":"委員王美惠等提案第35條第1項的續文中段罰款修正為2萬元以上9萬5千元以下罰款後面修正為3萬5千元以上12萬5千元以下罰款第8項的後段罰款修正為1萬元以上2萬元以下罰款 委員黃靜豪等提案第35條第1項的續文後段修正為並沒入該汽機車及吊銷其駕駛執照並不得再考慮"},{"start":4042.712,"end":4062.638,"text":"第二項 現行第三項修正為第二項並將後段修正為公路主管機關得公佈其姓名照片及違法事實現行第四項修正為第三項並將續文後段修正為並沒入該汽機車及吊銷其駕駛執照並不得再領考現行第五項修正為第四項並將中段以及後段修正"},{"start":4064.775,"end":4077.464,"text":"在中段的部分修正為違反第三項後段修正為公路主管機關的公佈其姓名照片及違法事實現行第六項修正為第五項 現行第七項修正為第六項並將後段並調扣該汽機車"},{"start":4081.482,"end":4110.202,"text":"排照兩年於一致保管該汽機車時 扣腳期 排照等文字均予以刪除 現行第八項修正為第七項 刪除第九項現行第十項修正為第八項並將中斷並將中斷後修正為違反第一項至第四項規定之一者依其駕駛車輛分別依第一項至第四項所處罰完加罰二分之一現行第十一項以及第十二項合併修正為第九項"},{"start":4111.303,"end":4139.617,"text":"文字內容為汽機車駕駛人有第一項字 第四項字情形之異 同時違反刑事法律者經裁判確定可以罰金低於第九十二條第四項鎖定 最低罰還基準 規定者應依本條例裁決繳納不足最低罰還這部分 為王惠美等提案第三十五條之二 第一項的中斷修正為濁淨損害和五倍以下"},{"start":4141.127,"end":4163.413,"text":"委員黃敬豪等提案第35條 則第1項的前短作修正 駕駛汽車有違反第35條第1項至第4項之情形委員閻寬恒等提案第43條在第4項的中段徵定有第1項第5款之行為者 應於吊扣期滿後折令其定期檢驗或增加檢驗次數等文字"},{"start":4164.799,"end":4182.738,"text":"委員寬恒等提案第44條第二項的默劇徵訂彈書文字內容為彈執行任務之消防車救護車警備車工程救險車毒性化學物質災害事故應變車等緊急救援車不在此限委員王逸川等提案第44條第1項第4項"},{"start":4185.481,"end":4209.033,"text":"修正為 汽車駕駛人如有前二項情形 因而肇事 致人受傷 受普通傷害者處新台幣一萬八千元以上 三萬六千元以下罰還 致人重傷或死亡者處新台幣三萬六千元罰還 駕駛人 受傷者調扣其駕駛執照一年 致人重傷或死亡者調扣其駕駛執照 終身不得考慮文言寬恒等提案第四十五條第二項的後段"},{"start":4210.474,"end":4235.112,"text":"罰緩修正為新臺幣三千六百元以上三萬元以下罰緩 第三項的中段做修正為新臺幣一萬元以上十二萬元以下罰緩 目據徵訂及該車輛駕駛牌照等文字為林郡縣等提案第四十五條第二項的後段修正新臺幣六千元以上三萬元以下罰緩並吊銷駕駛執照及吊扣該車輛牌照六個月"},{"start":4238.755,"end":4255.769,"text":"第三項的中短修正為一萬元以上十萬元以下罰款 默劇徵訂及吊銷該汽車駕駛牌照等文字為劉許廷等提案第五十六條第二項的默劇 罰款修正為新台幣一千八百元以上三千元以下罰款"},{"start":4257.659,"end":4281.585,"text":"委員魯明哲等提案第56條第二項的默劇緩緩修正為6000元委員林月琴等提案第56條第6項的默劇徵定但通學區不是用之等文字委員蔡其昌等提案第65條在第一項的續文中段修正為高等行政高等行政法院地方行政訴訟庭"},{"start":4283.14,"end":4309.126,"text":"三除 三除現行的第二項 委員蔡啟昌等提案第六十七條 第一項的前段徵定未領有駕駛執照駕駛執照經吊銷註銷或吊扣期間駕車肇事致人重傷或死亡者或等文字 第八項的中段修正為肇事致人受傷者 委員林俊憲等提案第六十七條同委員蔡啟昌等提案"},{"start":4310.066,"end":4332.763,"text":"委員黃靜好 等提案第六七條 第一項刪除前段 第三項後段 第四項後段 第五項後段等文字 第二項刪除前段第三十五條 第三項前段 第四項前段等文字 以及後段 汽車駕駛人駕駛營業大客車製墨具之全部文字"},{"start":4334.175,"end":4362.909,"text":"第五項的默劇修正為應規定完成酒駕防治教育或酒飲治療委員王一川等提案第六七條第一項的中段有增訂文字在第五項的後段後面增訂第四十四條第四項後段等文字第二項的中段刪除第四十四條第四項等文字臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第六七條增訂第十項"},{"start":4364.864,"end":4379.793,"text":"汽車駕駛違反本條例規定駕駛執照與吊銷註銷或吊扣及禁止考領駕駛執照期間內不得持外國政府地區所發資駕駛執照證或國際駕駛執照駕車及換領駕駛執照"},{"start":4386.394,"end":4411.605,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案另一案第六十七條第一項刪除前段第三十五條第一項第三項後段 第四項後段 第五項後段等文字 第四項的單書作修正為 但有第六十七條第六十七條之一所定情形 除違反第三十五條第三項前段 第四項前段 第五項前段則外不在此限 第八項的後段"},{"start":4414.554,"end":4440.852,"text":"有徵訂文字在除有第一項或第四項的後面徵訂第三屬五條等文字委員羅志強等提案第七十二條第二項的後段修正為新台幣三千六百元以上七千兩百元以下防環並則令改正禁止其行使徵訂第三項文字內容為前項電動輔助自行車及微型電動二輪車擅自徵檢並跟電子控制裝置或原有規格者經檢測或"},{"start":4442.333,"end":4465.574,"text":"刑事審驗超出本條例第69條第一項第一款第二目至第三目規定另一本條例第12條處罰之臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第78條徵定第一項的第五款文字內容為五文消防車救護車警備車工程救險車毒性化學物質災害事故應變車之警號不立即"},{"start":4466.295,"end":4492.467,"text":"避讓為魯明哲等提案第80條第一項的序文默劇修正為處新臺幣4800元罰還臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第84條前段以及中段做修正前段修正為牽系動物在道路奔走中段修正為處視主或行為人"},{"start":4494.625,"end":4515.347,"text":"委員蔡啟昌等提案第85條 資三第一項的前段在第四項等文字的後面 增訂第二十一條第一項第二項第二十一條之一第一項第二項等文字 委員林俊憲等提案第85條 資三以及委員陳樹悅等提案第85條"},{"start":4517.29,"end":4522.696,"text":"慈善君同委員蔡熙昌等人提案委員蔡熙昌等提案第87條第87條"},{"start":4526.038,"end":4554.922,"text":"中段作修正為高等行政法院地方行政訴訟訴訟品為委員林俊憲等提案第九十二條 增訂第二項文字內容為車輛至車窗擋風玻璃連貼隔熱紙其透光率由交通部令定資 為廖新祥等提案第九十二條 增訂第二項文字內容為車輛行駛 車道至法婚 除經主管機關評估 卻有需要並續名理由 上網公告"},{"start":4557.182,"end":4579.856,"text":"不得限制機車行駛 臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第92條 增訂第10項文字內容為 第一項有關汽車設備變更規定 其中有關更換非原形式排氣管 應使用經環境部噪音管子認證 且能對應該汽車行駛之排氣管"},{"start":4581.348,"end":4609.727,"text":"委員王思堅等提案第九十二條第一項的默劇徵訂並因每年至少召開一次修正會議邀集相關民間團體專家學者代表參與等文字委員蔡熙昌等提案徵訂第九十二條之二計策駕駛人肢體隔禍體能變化有不合規定合格基準之情形應將駕駛執照繳回當地公路監理機關重新辦理駕駛執照資格審查"},{"start":4611.568,"end":4633.96,"text":"公路主管機關未查核 汽車駕駛人患有視覺功能障礙失智症癲癇或其他足以影響汽車駕駛之體格或體能變化情形得恰請下列機關提供相關資料受請求機關有配合提供之義務一 衛生福利部主管身心障礙證明資料二 勞動部主管"},{"start":4634.84,"end":4660.618,"text":"勞工保險 勞工職業災害保險之失能給付資料 三 農業部主管農民健康保險身心障礙給付 農民職業災害保險身心障礙給付資料 四 群術部主管公教人員保險失能給付資料 五 國防部主管軍人保險身心障礙給付資料 工路主管機關經查和前項所列機關提供之相關資料任七特駕駛人有第一項所定"},{"start":4661.118,"end":4677.126,"text":"情形者應通知該駕駛人限期重新辦理駕駛執照資格審查經通知辦理藉其人為辦理駕駛執照資格審查則由公路監理機關進行註銷其駕駛執照公路主管機關一第二項規定所取得之資料應盡"},{"start":4678.567,"end":4707.334,"text":"善良管理人之注意義務 確實辦理資訊 安全集合作業其保有處理及利用 並因依個人資料保護法則規定辦理 第二項提供資料之收集處理利用 提供項目程序及其他相關事項之辦法由交通部會商相關主管機關定之 委員林思敏等提案第九十二條之二 除第三項的中斷定為於一個月內外其餘均同委員蔡啟昌等人提案"},{"start":4709.178,"end":4724.696,"text":"接續宣讀公路法十一案條文對照表除宣讀個體案條文只修正或鎮定文字其餘均衡性行條文為林郡縣等提案第二十七條第一項的默劇"},{"start":4726.017,"end":4747.11,"text":"修正為公路養護修建及安全管理費徵訂第二項以及第三項文字內容為使用燃料車輛之徵收費率不得超過燃料進口或出廠價格25%非使用燃料車輛之徵收費率由交通部會商財政部另訂之謝謝"},{"start":4749.891,"end":4774.283,"text":"現行第二項 第一為第四項並將據所修正為公路養護修建及安全管理費為林郡縣等提案第28條第二款的墨具將汽車燃料使用費修正為公路養護修建及安全管理費為陳冠廷等提案第32條徵政第二項及第三項文字內容為前項行道樹花木"},{"start":4775.383,"end":4792.224,"text":"栽植工程以原生樹種為主並應納入公眾參與機制原生樹種自選擇建議由中央農業主管機關公告自委員徐富奎等提案第32條第一項的中斷在力求美化的後面增訂並"},{"start":4793.425,"end":4811.91,"text":"注重水土保持等文字增訂第二項文字內容為前向行道樹花木種子應以原生種為優先維尼奧心祥等提案第32條第一項的中段在地球美化的後面增訂並應整合水土保持及災害防治設計並維護公路周邊之實在設施"},{"start":4815.271,"end":4830.84,"text":"促進行車安全與生態韌性等文字增訂第二項文字內容為前向行道樹及花木子種植因應原生種為優先並應定期檢視其生長狀況與根系穩固性確保公路安全與設施完整"},{"start":4832.802,"end":4850.818,"text":"委員陳冠廷等提案第33條第一項的前段將應遵循以人為本理念等文字修正為應落實軌跡驗證符合通行車種並遵循以人為本理念"},{"start":4851.899,"end":4866.434,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第39條之一第二項的手續在個人牌照的後面徵定與通用計程車牌照等文字維碼文均等提案同臺灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":4870.118,"end":4896.198,"text":"委員 邱若驊等提案第39條之一第二項在第二項的牌照之發放後面徵訂與通用計程車牌照等文字委員 何欣淳等提案第46條第二項的前段公路主管機關後面徵訂應急主動告知受害者本人或其配偶親屬得應期檢據警察機關相關證明文件之申請"},{"start":4897.98,"end":4923.138,"text":"委員何新泉等提案第60條之一第二項的中段將以書面通知等文字修正為將因送達之文書交由物資機構以雙掛號發送以為送達等文字委員王逸川等提案第65條第三項的中段在責任保險的後面增訂第三項"},{"start":4924.858,"end":4928.074,"text":"第三人責任保險以及後面中斷"},{"start":4930.966,"end":4956.831,"text":"責任保險的後面也是增電第三人責任保險為林郡縣等提案第72條增電第4項至第8項文字內容為管線機構或其他工程主管機關構使用公路用地設置管線或人手孔蓋於設置或維修後應與修復並確實回停與臨街路面齊平平整度標準以3公尺直規"},{"start":4959.473,"end":4978.234,"text":"檢測單點高低差不得超過正負0.6公分其抗滑值基準由交通部領領執違反者應於限期內改善借其未改善者處新台幣3萬元以上15萬元以下罰完並限期改善借其人未改善者按次處罰之公路主管機關有養父必要時"},{"start":4980.476,"end":4998.932,"text":"得要求管線機構或其他工程組組辦機關構將部分人手孔蓋下地但管線機構或其他工程組辦機關構有救災或特殊需求者得免於下地特殊需求之範圍由交通部 會商 直轄司 縣市政府及相關管線"},{"start":5000.813,"end":5014.284,"text":"機構定資管線機構或其他工程主管機關構設置自管線或其他設施如因設置或管理有缺失致人民生命身體或財產受損害者或經主管機關巡視 巡查發現設置範圍內路面回復不確實或有致人"},{"start":5017.046,"end":5042.271,"text":"人體損傷之餘因於限期內改善 借其未改善者處新台幣3萬元以上 15萬元以下罰款並限期改善 借其人未改善者按次處罰 傾向管線或其他設施設置範圍系以管線或其他設施與公路用地內施工所挖掘之範圍內 違反第一項第三項至第六項規定致使發生重大災害處新台幣"},{"start":5043.751,"end":5057.583,"text":"15萬元以上150萬元以下罰還先行第4項 第1為第9項為寧君縣等提案第75條將前段汽車燃料使用費修正為公路養護修建及安全管理費"},{"start":5059.659,"end":5077.904,"text":"接續宣讀停車場法四案條文對照表主宣讀各提案條文指修正或增訂文字區域均衡線型條文為林郡縣等提案第四條第一項的第三款前段將汽車燃料使用費修正為公路養父修建及安全管理費"},{"start":5080.461,"end":5097.24,"text":"委員6先想等提案第32條第一項的中段或停放者的後面增訂或電動汽車與電動汽車充電專用停車位未有充電事實等文字第二項的後段"},{"start":5098.041,"end":5113.455,"text":"充電專用停車位者徵訂電動汽車與電動汽車充電專用停車位未有充電事實等文字為洪孟楷等提案第32條除第二項的後段徵訂逗號或"},{"start":5120.08,"end":5140.229,"text":"等文字外 其餘均同委員廖先祥等提案為台灣民眾黨黨團提案第38條在前段標示設施的後面增訂第27條之一電動汽車充電專用停車位設置比例與充電設備設置等文字宣讀完畢好"},{"start":5149.113,"end":5173.791,"text":"我們主條所有提案委員的條文都宣讀完畢那現在在座委員我們來確定上次會議議事錄大家有沒有意見好那沒有意見我們的議事錄就確定好那現在我們就來進行主條討論"},{"start":5226.633,"end":5250.496,"text":"好 因為好 跟各位委員做說明報告因為本來今天我們在逐條審查條文所以臨時因為本會委員臨時提臨時的提案現在請我們議事人員宣讀臨時提案的要旨"},{"start":5267.446,"end":5267.987,"text":"臨時提案一"},{"start":5270.194,"end":5296.126,"text":"鑒於機車為我國最大中旅次運具近年地方政府雖遵照交通部指引逐步開放機車免兩段市左轉及部分車道取消進行機車然道路交通安全規則第99條第一項認為地方政府設置道路標誌主要依據該法案早已不合時宜無法自應龐大機車交通量能且憲法第22條及第23條明文"},{"start":5299.368,"end":5327.348,"text":"人民路權應受保障政府應符合最小侵害原則施政聖經中央韓式地方的開放機車行駛不分道路子內側車道原要求交通部重新審視訂定道路交通安全規則第99條第1項除系統性評估有期進行機車及兩段式左轉必要性外應與刪除無適用情境條文避免交通主管機關因"},{"start":5328.308,"end":5355.198,"text":"作為限縮機車行駛權益之依據保障機車用路人權益及安全提案人委員廖先祥等臨時提案二有鑒於平溪區為我國重要國際觀光景區天燈文化活動結合平溪鐵路已成為我國觀光代表一項之一違憲刑鐵路法第57條第二項及第70條第一項對於鐵路運行安全"},{"start":5355.818,"end":5383.384,"text":"雖有嚴格規範卻在實務上與地方觀光需求產生衝突阻礙天燈活動之推廣影響地方觀光產業發展與國際形象原要求交通部鐵道局兩週內提出鐵路法第57條第二項修正草案正列觀光文化活動之專案許可規範受交通部審議以兼顧鐵路運輸安全與地方觀光文化永續發展並建立天燈施放與"},{"start":5384.524,"end":5413.351,"text":"鐵路安全並行之制度性解方提案人委員廖先祥等宣布完畢我們提案臨時提案有兩個議案那請提案人要不要補充說明好不要補充說明來我們那個主管機關我們沒有意見好那我們提案的第一案沒有意見我們就是提案通過來接下來第二案要不要提案提案說明先想"},{"start":5414.437,"end":5441.763,"text":"好不用來主管 新管也沒有意見好也沒有意見那我們提案的第一案跟第二案我們就通過好接下來我們就是道交條例裡面的逐條來審查首先七之一條我們提案委員習曉新委員等23位"},{"start":5445.204,"end":5449.377,"text":"還有另外七支一條有修正動議請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":5453.021,"end":5481.053,"text":"修正動議一提案人委員徐巧欣的針對委員徐巧欣等提案做修正第七條之一B項的第三款在第31條的後面增訂第四項以及修正第12款至第17款依照現行條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":5482.694,"end":5488.261,"text":"好那個修正提案修正人來紀委員請說明"},{"start":5490.513,"end":5515.965,"text":"謝謝主席這次修正主要有幾個原因第一個是因為先前有修過相關的法條所以說在很多條文上面有異動這一次修正動議我就必須要把相關的法條的異動也做相關的修正所以在大概我們可以看到12條到17條的條目上面主要都是來自這個原因"},{"start":5517.686,"end":5535.914,"text":"特別講一下我們把原本我修的這個可能交通部會特別需要了解就是說在交通部的處理意見裡面第二點的部分我們也順應交通部的處理意見把第55條第一款的部分先把它刪除了"},{"start":5537.494,"end":5564.683,"text":"這一款其他的重點在於說道路交通標誌前臨時停車的話遮蔽這個標示但是很多的民眾在這個對話過程當中認為這樣子是有很多解釋空間的所以要避免可能比如說交通道號誌的定義包含管制道路交通警告禁止指示或者是一些文字圖案繪製的標牌那被遮蔽的話是比較危險的"},{"start":5565.663,"end":5589.242,"text":"所以我想交通部的意見我們是完全能夠接受但是在另外一條的部分我們要保留31原本的在第7條之1的第3項裡面納入31條第4項這一款主要是汽車駕駛人對於6歲那個徐委員拜託一下因為我們針對你7之1條"},{"start":5591.084,"end":5595.086,"text":"因為我們出條的時候就不要跳到31條這不是31條這不是31條這是第7條之一的第三項裡面這不是31條這一款是汽車駕駛人對於6歲以下或需要特別看護的兒童單獨留置車內者出駕駛人新台幣3000元的發還這個在民眾檢舉範圍之內我認為非常重要"},{"start":5620.402,"end":5644.108,"text":"那交通部的這個處理意見裡面他認為呢單獨留置六歲以下或是特別需要看護的兒童呢屬於比較緊急的狀況應該要先撥打110道場處理就可以排除危害員警道場處理亦可以對車輛所有人進行舉發而不需要就是用民眾這個檢舉的方式但是呢我們從新聞上可以看到我舉個例子"},{"start":5645.108,"end":5673.718,"text":"2025年的5月17號獨留1歲的嬰兒在車內30分鐘內呢就差一點悶死了所以呢他這個媽媽就說我只是帶小孩去看一下幾分鐘而已那就造成這樣子的狀況那打110當然是必要的但是呢你今天即使是打了110那警察到案的到現場的時間那是多少這不是我們可以控制的範圍以及如果留置嬰兒那在"},{"start":5676.459,"end":5693.364,"text":"這個氣溫比較高的情況那這個我在提案說明那邊有寫那繁瑣在車內會加大中暑或體溫過高導致於致命的風險發生那現行的7條之一並沒有將31條第4項的這個部分納入讓民眾像公路"},{"start":5696.645,"end":5720.096,"text":"主管或警察機關檢舉所以我們是針對檢舉的部分認為如果有看到孩子被反鎖在車內的話那民眾在這個部分是可以做檢舉然後後續會有裁罰那新台幣3000元的罰還那也希望用這個方式呢提醒父母或是駕駛人那把孩子留在車內這件事情是不對的"},{"start":5722.057,"end":5743.962,"text":"所以不只是打110然後等員警到現場舉發而是一般的民眾他在這樣子的一個檢舉範圍之內也可以做舉發所以我們希望在維持兒童安全的部分能夠透過檢舉的方式儲價10人新台幣3000元罰款因此保留 以上謝謝好 謝謝齊小新委員李崑澤委員"},{"start":5748.254,"end":5772.201,"text":"謝謝昭偉針對盜交7條之一就是有關於針對6歲以下兒童留置車內的開放檢舉這個概念上是良善的我比較想問的說針對幼童留在車內是需要立即處理甚至是需要立即破窗來救出幼童"},{"start":5772.921,"end":5801.367,"text":"那這個部分警政署等一下黃文哲組長來說明一下我們相關執行的這樣的一個實際的狀況以及開罰單的這樣的一個程序我們在報警處理的時候也是否就是也會有做開單的這樣的一個動作那這個警政署必須清楚說明一下實際的狀況再來讓大家來做處理以上"},{"start":5801.983,"end":5821.063,"text":"好那個請警政署我們黃組長來過去你們處理這類型的那個經過跟大概案件次數跟各位委員來做說明是主席各位委員大家早那警政署這邊做一個報告"},{"start":5822.344,"end":5841.745,"text":"那一般我們接貨到有幼童被在車內被鎖在車內的時候因為各警察機關他轄區的地域狀況不同所以他到達的時間就如同剛剛我們徐委員所提的到達的時間是不一定那但是我們到達之後我們沒有辦法"},{"start":5844.147,"end":5868.543,"text":"開門進去的時候我們就會利用破窗器把這個車窗會把它擊破然後迅速把幼童救出這個把兒童救出來是我們第一項第一個原則這個是我們最重要的一個部分那一般父母親他不會故意有這樣一個行為所以對於這個部分我們會跟他舉報的狀況應該是比較少這個部分我先在這邊做一個補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":5870.06,"end":5892.235,"text":"比較少大概案件以一年度來看有多少案件讓各位委員這個危險性確實是有的但是你的案件多不多可能就會牽涉到修華裡面的需求性所以你大概能不能有一個初步的數據讓各位委員去做參佐在這邊再做一個補充報告"},{"start":5893.576,"end":5900.025,"text":"因為目前這邊沒有一個統計的數據能不能容會後再跟各位委員做一個報告"},{"start":5901.836,"end":5908.34,"text":"現在請胡市長來這裡來做說明我們針對31條獨立兒童與車內的取締件數113年的話是17件112年是26件111年是16件所以件數不多也都有持續在進行"},{"start":5927.71,"end":5941.622,"text":"你看你這個數據看起來各位委員做參考它是好像有逐年增加的趨勢沒有 減少 減少因為我是從後面念完那你們對於它的修正動議你們有什麼看法 來"},{"start":5945.802,"end":5967.796,"text":"跟委員報告我們是跟委員報告就是如同剛剛包括警政單位還有包括那個李委員有特別提到就是這個因為毒瘤兒童於那個車上還是屬於比較緊急的狀態那是應該是要馬上報警處理的所以我們是建議這個部分不列為舉發的項目因為舉發的是"},{"start":5972.075,"end":5979.898,"text":"檢舉的項目那檢舉的時程是因為會遠大於那個立即處理的那個時效習委員"},{"start":5987.516,"end":6007.036,"text":"這個也謝謝李昆澤委員能夠先詢問警政署的狀況 釐清那其實通常這個警察有時候很忙或者是說這個轄區的關係那到現場的時候有兩種情況第一種情況就是立即救出這個孩子也代表說這孩子可能在車子裡面待得比較久"},{"start":6007.642,"end":6029.887,"text":"但第二種情況是獨留小朋友在車子裡面但是呢實際上面對方呢已經開走了所以也沒有辦法被開單那當然對方也會說他自己不是故意的可是呢我們沒有辦法確認每一個就是父母或者是行為人不見得是父母行為人將"},{"start":6031.087,"end":6049.922,"text":"孩子放在車內繁瑣的這個情況他是故意與否這個並不是你詢問他他當然會說不是啊誰想要被開單呢那但是呢獨留小朋友在車子裡面我剛提過了2025年5月17號的新聞大概30分鐘左右"},{"start":6050.402,"end":6078.461,"text":"那民眾有看到了想要舉發但是對於我們現行條文來說確實只能打110請檢查來之後才有可能去做舉發但是我們為了要再次的降低這樣子的一個可能性那我覺得民眾如果有看到小朋友被反鎖在車內的這個情況除了打110然後請檢查來處理之外那檢舉的部分我也希望能夠提供民眾"},{"start":6080.882,"end":6109.942,"text":"在這個條目上面我們寫的罰還也並不高3000元所以它是比較類似於一個警惕性的作用並不是要對於這個行為人去重罰但是我們的重點在於當民眾有看到小朋友被反鎖在車內的情況他是有權對此進行舉發的這才是我們希望的用意是一種警惕也希望能夠降低類似的事件再次的發生以上"},{"start":6111.362,"end":6133.512,"text":"好 那主管機關那個胡那個來 林局長幫忙一下針對這個就是說薛委員所提的這個第三款的修訂那除了剛剛這個昆哲委員所提到的部分那我也跟各位報告第一個部分就是說違反大陸交通管理事件的一個處理有這個現場舉發然後處理那有這個進行舉發"},{"start":6138.294,"end":6165.715,"text":"那民眾檢舉的部分是屬於進行舉發那進行舉發的部分那民眾檢舉的過程是第一個如果剛剛想就是說許委員所提到的那個情境第一個部分幼童在裡面這個是屬於立即要去做處理的部分那打電話立即報警做處理這個並不屬於這個民眾檢舉這是民眾這個叫這個即時的部分那如果是用民眾檢舉的部分的話就變成說民眾拍照"},{"start":6166.335,"end":6182.368,"text":"攝影然後到警察機關的網站去把這樣子的東西登錄到這個裡面去那這個一來一回如果待會可以請這個黃組長做一個說明目前民眾檢舉到警察機關看到這個案子的一個處理基本上是有他的這個時間差這是第一點"},{"start":6184.389,"end":6207.483,"text":"那這個第二點的部分確實就是說把它列為民眾檢舉事後來做一個處理對於這個就是說父母可能有一些有警惕的作用但是條文訂成民眾檢舉的話對民眾來講可能也會造成有一些誤解原來是要立刻打電話這個報警做處理的部分那訂為民眾檢舉的部分的話可能"},{"start":6208.463,"end":6227.519,"text":"這個我就拍照起來我再去做處理可能也會有這樣子的部分所以是比較建議就是說對於這個幼童在車子裡面甚至在家庭裡面都不能獨留都要去保護的這個部分這個東西是屬於有時效性要去做處理的一個課題"},{"start":6228.92,"end":6258.09,"text":"那所以才建議就是說這個列入民眾檢舉的這個部分原則上是擋不到立即這個救援的一個部分那另外一個反面的一個部分的話就是說會不會在實務上會造成另外一種說我檢舉那就會變成這個沒有去做立即這個可以打電話這樣子的一個這個動作我想說這個條文可能要再思考一下以上好 那個廖先生 廖委員"},{"start":6259.864,"end":6286.825,"text":"我個人是認為交通部的說法是比較牽強一點這個民眾檢舉跟就是不衝突就是我們報警跟我們後續採證應該是兩個行為應該是可以有優先順序一件事情ABC只是說在我當然是個人原則支持納入但是我覺得應該有例外條件就是現在電動車比較普及這個我們擔心的是這個小朋友在"},{"start":6288.066,"end":6315.846,"text":"車內因為沒有空調或怎樣的可能發生生命的危險但是目前現在很多的車輛現在的油車它是不可以怠速的這是違規的 本來就不行如果說是電動車的話它其實現在是有一些寵物模式或者是維持恆溫模式的這樣的模式是現在車輛具備的功能我會建議這種具有溫度有控制恆溫系統的車輛是能夠排除的這是我個人的建議 以上"},{"start":6316.326,"end":6335.14,"text":"好 謝謝因為我跟各位報告因為我們條文很多那看起來似乎主管機關跟我們提案委員他的認知其實我要提醒我們主管機關不要忘了我們一千兩百塊以下以下是不可以兼及"},{"start":6336.141,"end":6359.467,"text":"但是不要忘了1200塊這個罰則是超過1200塊是可以的所以你們在說服讓委員了解是不是比較建議就是符合現有的法規它基本上它是可以檢舉那我們提案委員是要把它明確化它可以檢舉一"},{"start":6361.124,"end":6378.701,"text":"可以先是作用 二 也提醒作用所以這個部分確實是有差距是不是我們這個七之一條我們就先暫時保留我們再進行溝通這個後面的條文才有辦法繼續下去"},{"start":6379.944,"end":6387.251,"text":"這樣好不好我們先停然後等一下再做充分溝通以後用如何解決坤澤這樣好不好這樣我們現在就暫時暫時先不要那個好 那進行第12條"},{"start":6397.461,"end":6411.756,"text":"第12條是邱振興委員等21位提案來這個那個邱委員有來嗎沒有的話我們來那個魯明哲委員"},{"start":6415.284,"end":6439.999,"text":"謝謝主席我先詢問一下我們交通部因為偽變造車牌我們交通委員會大概在去年底今年初就已經交通委員會通過然後在今年的5月9號院會也三讀通過而且罰則可能比邱委員提的不太高最高的偽變造到7萬2那你們到底實施沒有"},{"start":6440.859,"end":6464.622,"text":"你們上路沒有第一個就是我們已經立院三讀的法案針對這條你上路沒有那第二個我想請教說如果我們之前修的都還沒上路現在再補修這個部分是我不太清楚耶是否定我們這個5月9號三讀通過的再重新來一遍還是說準備要上路了那現在這一條"},{"start":6466.443,"end":6482.49,"text":"這要等到上路之後實質之後研究我們再來能不能需要再重新修這個部分是不是要等他上路之後再來研究不然現在法令修完了還沒上路現在要補修這個會有麻煩的"},{"start":6483.717,"end":6497.835,"text":"好那個那個魯明哲委員講這些希望主管金灣這裡講清楚這樣我們委員在審議算啦好該停下來就停下來因為這個已經5月9號我們本院已經三讀通過了你們現在的情形到底怎麼樣來請說明"},{"start":6500.499,"end":6518.223,"text":"跟委員報告那個針對5月5月9號這次三讀通過的版本其實都已經把委員的意見大概都有那容納進去了那對於那個實行日期我們現在也抱怨即將就會會抱怨核定後我們就會去實施已經準備要實施"},{"start":6523.277,"end":6549.691,"text":"跟各位報告一下因為這個處罰條例的修正條文是自行自棄在最後一條裡面有規定是要報行政院這個核電那所以這一個就是說上一次修正通過的版本那部裡面包括那個系統修正還有這個違規裁罰基準的這個修正還包括因為裡面上次修正條文有很多車輛要一致保管的太陽所以警政署那邊也需要時間去做第一線援警的這個教育訓練"},{"start":6550.271,"end":6562.612,"text":"那目前這些相關施行準備作業大概都差不多我們現在已經報院那等院裡面核定這個施行時間就可以這個實施的所以是準備這個實施的好 那個局長"},{"start":6564.519,"end":6588.189,"text":"這個案子是上會期盧明德召委通過的所以他印象會比較深刻也就是說本來現在修的就是他通過的東西所以你們要把他講清楚審查委員才會去了解那原則性現在是有時空差的問題我們5月9號已經他在當召委的時候就把這個案子已經出去了"},{"start":6589.349,"end":6608.815,"text":"所以這個部分就是有執行差的問題所以你們認為說既然這個修的現在修的跟已經修過的都大同小異就不以修正你們的立場是不是這樣但是你要講清楚委員才了解啊好我再補一句好不好"},{"start":6609.335,"end":6628.65,"text":"那你們跟我們說一下好不好因為從我們去年這邊交通委員在開始提案討論非常熱烈那到今年初然後到五月整個院也三讀通過了那你們現在到現在六七八現在已經三個多月了那你原本"},{"start":6629.631,"end":6643.903,"text":"在有一個說法是7月15號要上路實施當時說時間不夠那現在能不能說一下你們預計到底這個民眾關注的偽變造車牌這個星球的法則你們預計什麼時候可以上路"},{"start":6645.904,"end":6670.482,"text":"好來請說明我想我跟委員說明一下剛才局長大概已經有補充說因為所有的一個按照那個程序最後要來訂定一個實施的日期那這個實施的日期我們也了解這個立法院的相關的委員也很關切整個社會也很關切所以我們會盡速協調行政院盡速核定以後我們立即來實施我們盡速"},{"start":6671.102,"end":6690.673,"text":"因為那個有一個程序要完備所以我會把技術這個程序給完備好 陳正次原則性是這樣啦因為現在修跟已修的5月9號修過的大同小異的嘛對啦所以人家魯昭吉人他在一律這個是在幫你們處理事情因為你們雖然後面有寫"},{"start":6691.673,"end":6717.342,"text":"但是是不太明確所以原則性我們這一條就是尊重你們已經現在修跟以前修的都一樣所以就不予修正是不是這樣那你時效我們魯昭級人所關心的就是說時效的問題盡快去處理這樣就連接起來了好不好那我們各位委員我們這一件就不予修正"},{"start":6717.902,"end":6744.713,"text":"因為我5月9號修正過的條文跟這個都一樣華澤跟各方面都一樣那是不是容許本席就跟委員徵詢一下我們這個就不予修正好不好好那進行第14條也就是吳佩奕委員等18位所提的第14條來這裡沒有人說明那就請主管機關來請主管機關說明"},{"start":6749.252,"end":6772.389,"text":"吳佩玉委員他主要是刪除那個隨車攜帶行照的規定那因為行照仍然是汽機車上路行駛的重要憑證而且現在包括校車幼童專用車救護車等都還是要定期換發行照所以我們是建議維持現行的規定以免造成誤解"},{"start":6774.83,"end":6800.331,"text":"好 各位委員有沒有補充的或者我們就尊重主管機關的不予修正好不好好 那我們就尊重主管機關不予修正來 進行第16條廖先祥委員 劉希婷委員所提出的還有顏匡衡等所提出來的第16條的修正來 請誰 先祥"},{"start":6801.152,"end":6830.107,"text":"好 謝謝因為昨天交通部有來溝通只是說溝通完之後還沒有我還沒有收到明確的回覆我的問題就是我們在地本條文的各項違規事項之前遇到的失誤的問題是我們的噪音車只有警方就只有在行駛的時候警方才能夠取締這是前線同仁跟我講的那在移動的時候當然遠景區追逐的時候這本來就不是我們鼓勵的取締行為我們本來就希望警察去做一些比較危險的追逐行為"},{"start":6831.507,"end":6857.424,"text":"而現在如果說這個在路邊停放的車輛如果說有明顯改裝車輛是噪音車的話前線員警是跟我說沒罵取締所以我修法的精神是希望說停放在公有場域的機車如果說他要違反噪音管制規則那個沒有認證的排氣管的話那是讓警方可以取締的那我現在就確認說我們交通部跟警政署確認的情況到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":6857.944,"end":6877.967,"text":"那如果說因為交通部昨天是跟我說應該是可以取締的那如果說這條是可以取締的話那是不是所有16條裡面的各項也都是在禁止狀況可以取締的一併請交通部一併說明 謝謝好 那個劉希廷委員謝謝主席這個我們提的是有關於噪音車的罰則加重"},{"start":6878.968,"end":6908.348,"text":"我們大概有三個概念第一個叫罰則加重這個交通部來溝通基本上是同意第二個是說因為你改裝排氣管等等你本來就要驗車驗車的費用應該由車主自行負擔你這種東西由公家來做本來就不合理這件事情交通部原則上也同意這兩件事有共識但第三件事情是有關於時間的部分也就是說我們的修法的邏輯是16條裡面做了一下調整然後特別把噪音車這一段拉成16條之一因為我們覺得說各項"},{"start":6909.408,"end":6934.202,"text":"改裝裡面其實影響社會大眾然後社會觀感跟大家最在乎就是噪音車嘛所以我覺得噪音車應該要有特別條款來做處理所以換言之我們提16條之一是因為噪音車的驗車你如果按照17條還是維持30天的話那不是放任它繼續製造噪音嗎所以我們就把它修正成為15天啦換言之就是15天之內你必須要復驗完成否則扣牌嘛"},{"start":6934.702,"end":6961.324,"text":"我是覺得既然大家宣示說要打擊噪音車你這個強度本來就要拉高不只是罰則的提高而是要求他立刻去驗 立刻改善如果不改善就要讓他扣牌你用這樣的方式來處理才有辦法徹底壓制噪音車的一個狀況所以我還是希望說我們可以做一下溝通如果可以的話不要為得不足既然要修就讓他一步到位讓他強度增加希望是用16條修正加上16條之一增訂的方式來做處理以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":6962.864,"end":6991.249,"text":"好 那個胡市長這個16條跟因為16條跟16條之一我們就一併處理好不好16條跟16條之一一併處理因為它連貫性比較強那胡市長來 請你說明因為看起來好像是有部分你們也贊成你們也贊成來修來 包庄委因為這個比較牽涉到食物的部分是不是有公務局來跟委員做一個報告"},{"start":6992.769,"end":7007.539,"text":"第一點的部分的話我先跟各位報告就是說確實這個汽機車改裝排氣管製造噪音的部分這個是交通部跟環境部還有各縣市地方政府現在這個最積極防治的一個這一個對象"},{"start":7008.519,"end":7025.911,"text":"那所以針對這一個就是範圍比較大的這個機車的部分那應該是去年嘛去年我們跟這個環境部大家兩個部會共同這一個合作一個是從源頭就是實施這個非原廠排氣管的認證的這個制度"},{"start":7027.492,"end":7051.013,"text":"那下游端的部分就是交通部修正道安規則把它列入這個應這個辦理變更登記的項目然後來跟現行16款裡面的第一款各項異動不辦理變更登記把它這個扣在一起那第二點我跟各位我們報告目前這個就是說環境部認證的這個排氣管總共有456款"},{"start":7052.114,"end":7071.978,"text":"那這個完成這個變更登記的有將近5.5萬輛車那第三點的部分就是針對委員所提案的一個這部分第一個剛剛廖委員先生所提到的部分就是說那這個如果說沒有這個使用非原廠的這個排氣管"},{"start":7072.378,"end":7098.988,"text":"那在靜態的時候可不可以來做一個這個舉發那我跟委員報告一下如果說車輛行駛當中的話那基本上用16條跟這個噪音管制法都可以來做處理那如果說是靜態的部分的話就回到第一款如果說他有變這個改變非原廠的這個排氣管那原則上他沒有來變更登記因為如果來變更登記就要"},{"start":7099.608,"end":7118.744,"text":"使用這個環境部認證的排氣管他才能完成變更登記那如果說他沒有完成這個非使用這個原廠這個非經認證的排氣管的話他就沒辦法這個完成認證那就是就沒有就沒有辦法來辦理變更登記那就是屬於第一款"},{"start":7119.764,"end":7142.83,"text":"這個各項異動登記不依規定來辦理這個東西就是剛剛廖先生委員所提到的部分在停在路邊基本上只要可以確認違規行為就可以來做一個舉發做處罰這是第一點報告那第二點這個報告的部分包括這個劉學廷委員所提到的部分就是說對於這樣子的行為應該要來加重划緩的一個部分所以"},{"start":7144.631,"end":7173.19,"text":"這邊在這個部裡面建議在修正的部分的話就是屬因為現行16款第一項各項異動裡面包括很多項的這個行為特別把這一項如果是屬於非形式這個原形式的排氣管不依規定申報異動登記者就按照前項最高法前項最高法是1800加倍就變成3600那基本上也這個處理到委員提案這個相關的一個部分"},{"start":7173.65,"end":7191.177,"text":"那另外這個那另外有委員提到就是說這種違規他的檢驗應該自己來付所以這次的條文修正建議修正條文裡面也就是說除了按照最高額加倍處罰並責令檢驗之外那公共監視器官得收取檢驗費用就是這個檢驗費用我們會來這個讓他來做一個致付"},{"start":7195.879,"end":7217.757,"text":"那另外一個部分剛剛就是劉學齡委員所提到的部分那個實施的這個就是期間或等等的部分那基本上這個實施臨時因為這種東西是屬於這個實施臨時檢驗的部分我們公路監視機關可以來指定日期他基本上跟一般的我們車輛定期檢驗前後一個月完成檢驗的規定是不太一樣"},{"start":7218.237,"end":7237.871,"text":"那剛剛委員所提的這些相關包括這個檢驗次數後程的部分基本上就是屬於這個檔案規則裡面臨時檢驗的那個部分那後面這個相關的部分我們這個也必要我們來檢討修正這個檔案規則那所以 希娜剛剛廖委員跟這個劉委員所提到的"},{"start":7238.671,"end":7267.261,"text":"這個包括這個就是言委員所提到的這個三個版本的修正條文的部分的話部裡面是有在中整有一個建議修正的部分大概就是說針對第二項的部分來做一個增訂就是前項第一款屬非原形式排氣管不依規定申報異動登記者就按照前項罰款1800元最高就加倍來處罰就是3600然後責令檢驗然後來索取檢驗的一個這個費用那以上這個建議修正條文"},{"start":7267.781,"end":7283.116,"text":"各位委員他們的修正也把我們委員提案的部分把它納進來所以在這裡大家可以看一下修正的那兩位提案委員"},{"start":7283.897,"end":7306.44,"text":"跟各位委員看有沒有什麼意見他是部分修正說部分修正他們是建議這樣修正對那提案委員看有沒有對我們把那個大家手上應該有大本的其實在大本的那個第一欄我們就是整併都放在裡面了有沒關係剛剛市長講的局長講的抱歉局長講的我想就是請警政署同仁有來嗎"},{"start":7307.569,"end":7329.53,"text":"交通組就是剛剛黃組長組長沒錯嘛就是那我可不可以就是一個附帶決議下去就是靜態的部分那就是在同仁的這個教育訓練請警政署去宣導在靜態的車輛那裡都是我們的取締的可以一條文來取締那另外一個我您等一下可以再補充啦就是現在機車已經上路了嘛"},{"start":7329.85,"end":7337.702,"text":"那汽車你們現在跟環境部討論的進度怎麼樣就是汽車排氣管改裝的認證那可能等一下是不是能夠補充說明一下謝謝"},{"start":7343.138,"end":7365.885,"text":"謝謝我覺得16條你照修訂通行通過沒有問題啦因為他就是加重罰則嘛然後加上這個公路監禮機關收據檢驗費用嘛這就講有達成共識的部分但我還是覺得既然要嚴打噪音車你就不能讓他30日你講說修改規則你連三途通過的法律要處理那個偽造車牌到現在都還沒弄出來對不對你要修訂規則不知道大家等多久"},{"start":7366.545,"end":7389.771,"text":"我是覺得噪音車的噪音污染是對整個台灣社會是有立即性的衝擊如果我們要修法我們就是要回應社會大眾的期待所以我是覺得16條之一我們在內容上可以精簡嘛因為你前面罰還的部分跟這個收取檢驗費用部分已經在16條已經寫了嘛我們16條之一來做一個簡單的修正東西但我就是要把噪音車就15日之內你要處理完嘛"},{"start":7390.271,"end":7406.996,"text":"你如果不處理完就要扣牌我是覺得你這樣修那個強度才會出來啦好不好所以16條我們照我建議是我們就照修正通過那16條我們保留一下我們這樣修正我們商量一下好不好好 這樣好不好那個林局長跟胡司長你們都大概研究一下啦他們這個劉委員跟廖委員講的他原則性原則性我們的這個16條可以修正通過"},{"start":7416.359,"end":7439.294,"text":"16條可以修正通過那16條之一因為那個劉委員是希望說較為明確啦是不是再來研究一下我們等一下先把16條16條通過修正通過那16條之一我們先保留一下再來做溝通完了以後我們再來處理這樣好不好好那各位委員我們就16條"},{"start":7441.936,"end":7460.449,"text":"16條先修正通過那16條之一我們稍等溝通以後再來處理這樣好不好好那我們就16條OK您講的沒有問題啦剛剛我講的部分就下附帶決議文字給他們擬就好了好那個那個廖委員希望他來擬一個那個附帶決議那你們來擬你們擬就好把它連貫起來這樣好不好然後汽車各位補充一下"},{"start":7466.593,"end":7489.213,"text":"汽車的部分我跟委員報告一下汽車的部分的話我們有跟環境部在做討論那因為這個東西牽扯到那個源頭排氣管認證制度的這個部分我們也知道說汽車排氣管相對這一個汽車排氣管是比較複雜這一個部分環境部在評估原則上只要環境部那邊的認證制度出來"},{"start":7489.853,"end":7507.94,"text":"我們下游的這個 好啦你們再繼續追啦好不好再繼續追 好不好謝謝 好不好那我們就做好那我們就做16條修正通過16條之一在進行溝通之後再行處理這樣好不好各位委員這樣好不好好那我們就進行21條"},{"start":7515.872,"end":7539.889,"text":"21條也有很多委員就是邱振興委員 林世明委員 林業群委員魯明哲委員 陳俊宇委員 羅志強委員這個蠻多修的陳敬威 黃建豪 李崑辰 邱若驊 羅廷維張宏祿 游皓 蔡其昌 林俊憲 陳樹葉 吳祺銘"},{"start":7543.511,"end":7568.584,"text":"林倩琦 王宏威 柯智恩賴瑞榮 羅明才 洪孟楷 王逸川等修正的案件那現在請黃建豪委員 再來昆澤委員再來我們那個葉秦委員 好不好還有接下來我們昆澤委員 欸那個昆城委員"},{"start":7571.553,"end":7596.985,"text":"好謝謝主席我想這一條21條主要是針對這個無照駕駛的部分那我想跟各位分享說因為其實之前我們諮詢也有提到過去我們針對酒駕的部分是有加重刑期加重是一個懲罰所以酒駕的酒駕致死的數字在實際上來講是有陸續加強雖然還是嚴重但至少他從最高的這個300多那降到現在250幾一年的致死率到去年為止那大概這樣那個無照駕駛的"},{"start":7598.106,"end":7619.033,"text":"無照價值在之前是有修法把這個法環提高提高了但提高之後其實它的無照價值至此的比例還是很高大概也是維持在600到700左右的數字它沒有特別的下降所以我今天想要處理我們今天提我今天提這個法案想要處理還是屬於無照價值的部分我們希望說"},{"start":7620.473,"end":7647.272,"text":"因為在包含無照駕駛的這個樣態裡面很多還是重複他今天被抓無照駕駛他隔天換一台車他照樣無照駕駛所以我把這個放一個新的定義就是說還是希望除了提高罰款之外在沒入車輛這部分比照我們之前提的像這個改裝車牌懸掛甲車牌等等的方式我覺得還是要處理車輛本身處理車輛本身它才有實際上的嚇阻作用不然你罰他錢"},{"start":7649.045,"end":7663.179,"text":"罰完之後他隔天或隔一周他繼續做同樣的事情那這樣造成用路人的危險所以說我提出這樣的修法以上 謝謝好 我們李坤哲委員好 謝謝昭偉有關於道教第21條其實也包含21條之一"},{"start":7666.041,"end":7685.354,"text":"那這個部分當然是針對無照駕駛的罰則來進行相關的一個調整那現在無照駕駛的情況非常嚴重那我看這個交通部的統計2024年的無照駕駛他的人次高達28萬"},{"start":7688.815,"end":7713.301,"text":"5500人次這非常可怕的一個數據就代表我們的交通秩序安全受到無照駕駛的這樣的一個狀況其實衝擊非常的嚴重針對無照駕駛嚴重的狀況也誠如剛才黃建豪委員所言其實是已經到一個非常嚴重的程度交通部必須要有更積極的作為"},{"start":7714.261,"end":7729.319,"text":"其實我針對條文的內容很多委員都有提案我是認為要尊重委員之間的一個討論結果交通部我認為必須針對目前的這種無照駕駛的人次高達285,500人次這樣嚴重的狀況"},{"start":7735.606,"end":7750.878,"text":"應該是要有更因應的作為它其實是不同類型的無照駕駛狀況它有兩種最主要就是說未領有駕照無照還有一種是駕照被吊銷無照"},{"start":7752.499,"end":7776.37,"text":"目前都必須要有因應的辦法除了提高罰則之外交通部到底在目前處理無照駕駛針對未領有駕照或駕照被吊銷你們相關的政策的處理方式到底是目前執行的狀況是如何如果有因應有執行為什麼狀況會越來越嚴重交通部等一下說明一下好 請林惠琴委員"},{"start":7780.965,"end":7807.972,"text":"好我看近五年來這樣的數據大概無照駕駛大概增幅高達22%那如同交通部的自己的研究也做出來是說大概一個交通事故死亡的話大概要1600萬的成本受傷事實上是118萬的一個成本如果換算出來的話大概無照駕駛每年更將近近千億"},{"start":7808.832,"end":7827.433,"text":"的一個社會成本那而且加上這些數據呢事實上也遠高於我們的酒駕的案件的死亡人數跟受傷人數所以看起來無招架死傷對道路交通安全的危害風險非常高而且不亞於我們的酒駕可是相對於酒駕過去已經很多的相關的"},{"start":7828.294,"end":7842.819,"text":"不管是罰則也好一些相關措施都相對事實上是嚴格的所以這次我的版本大家主要有幾個三項就是當場一致保管該汽車既然它是無照駕駛為什麼還允許它持續還是在能夠使用車"},{"start":7843.419,"end":7865.632,"text":"所以只要攔檢後就應該事實上把他的車當場一致保管該汽車的一個規定希望能夠有效來做克制他的違規第二個是我們的吊扣牌照並當場繳交為什麼要去扣繳這個先行法規對於車主本身的無照駕駛的一個車輛的情形"},{"start":7866.232,"end":7891.855,"text":"沒有扣吊扣牌照的一個處罰所以為了減少無照駕駛取得車輛的來源應該強化汽車所有人善盡車輛的管理責任所以在這邊我也參考了酒駕吊扣牌照的一些規定增訂了無照駕駛應該吊扣該汽車的牌照一個月還有能夠有一致保管是我們的扣腳牌照的罰則"},{"start":7892.936,"end":7911.625,"text":"另外一個更期待的是在這邊我們希望能夠列入因為我剛剛看交通部的版本並沒有去做這樣的考量就是同車乘客的一個處罰因為為了建立無照駕駛管理的一個他律機制要求乘客也能夠共同負起防制的一個責任在"},{"start":7912.145,"end":7932.265,"text":"那同樣接近我們的酒駕同車的乘客的一個處罰規定應該針對汽機車駕駛人有第一項第一款到第五款的情形的時候年滿18歲的同車乘客的罰款的一些規定而且我要提醒交通部的是為什麼特別我要去提這個因為過往以"},{"start":7932.725,"end":7954.935,"text":"只要是機車在後座死傷必竟事實上是比前座還要嚴重那如果在這樣狀況底下如果他就是無照駕駛的話對後邊一起搭乘的話他的傷亡更加劇所以這要去考慮以上好謝謝我們林業群現在請李崑城委員"},{"start":7959.427,"end":7980.587,"text":"謝謝主席那本席也有提案那這個第21條這個許多委員提案那表示說大家都非常的關心這個無照駕駛的這部分那我看交通部的版本其實在法則上面已經有提高了然後另外一個就是說有關於這一個這個吊銷駕照然後還有一致保管汽車 汽機車這也有"},{"start":7981.087,"end":8007.406,"text":"然後還有有關於汽車所有人他的責任其實我也相當認同林月琴委員所提到的說除了汽車所有人的責任之外同車人的責任我認為他也必須有附有提醒的或是說注意的義務在我也希望說在修法的時候能夠同樣也把這一條納進去考量因為我們總是希望說"},{"start":8008.606,"end":8030.012,"text":"在無照駕駛的這部分的話這一個你同車的人你如果知道說你這個開車的人是沒有這個駕照的話那是不是要能夠提醒他那所以也要賦予相關的一個責任以上說明好謝謝李昆城委員現在陳樹葉委員好接下來我們那個"},{"start":8034.223,"end":8054.05,"text":"謝謝主席那今天委員會就是針對這第21條就是主要就是無照駕駛的這個法則進行討論那我們知道我們從這個數據上看近幾年來有關這個無照駕駛的案件數可以說是居高不下不管是這個造勢的這個件數或者是"},{"start":8055.27,"end":8072.786,"text":"造勢致人死傷的這個件數都是遠遠高於酒駕的這個件數那也可以說引起了社會大眾的一個恐慌因為這樣子的一個無照駕駛事實上跟酒駕一樣然後就是造成這個社會大眾很大的一個危害的一個威脅"},{"start":8073.687,"end":8089.928,"text":"所以那今天本席針對這一個修正案也提出了幾個部分主要就是將這個罰款的部分的上限提高那另外一個部分就是說比照這個無照駕駛的一個法則就是對於針對同車乘客"},{"start":8091.71,"end":8111.946,"text":"好的一個法則那另外就是對於累犯無照駕駛這個累犯來予以公佈這個照片姓名照片因為在酒駕的部分我們在2022年針對酒駕的累犯我們有這樣子的一個法則就是公佈姓名照片"},{"start":8112.506,"end":8126.59,"text":"那從2022年修法通過後實施至今確實也是有收到這個嚇阻的一個作用所以本席在這邊是建議做這樣子的一個修正 謝謝好 謝謝我們陳樹葉委員現在林倩琦委員謝謝主席那當然這個21條是大家提案的這個數量非常的多那大概就是針對第一個重點就是罰則的那個金額提高"},{"start":8141.533,"end":8149.016,"text":"那第二個部分是大概提供了一些方式來減低這個無照駕駛的一個衝擊那我這邊有一個問題是針對這個江路這邊依據所有委員的一個罰則可能算出來的一個區間那針對機車跟汽車有不同的一個罰款"},{"start":8163.723,"end":8181.387,"text":"我想請教一下這個機車跟汽車你們從一萬八千到三千這個是機車部分然後汽車從三萬六千到六萬以下其他還有一些附加的一個條件我想請教一下這個部分是怎麼樣算出來的"},{"start":8181.787,"end":8198.366,"text":"那每個人提的那個金額都不太一樣嘛那你們最終取得這樣一個最大公約數的算出來的這個依據是什麼可不可以請介石回應我這個部分一下 謝謝好 那個稍等一下再說明好不好 倩琪"},{"start":8199.767,"end":8218.637,"text":"讓我們各位提案委員充分把意見反映出來了以後我們再來做回答等一下市長回答一下你們計算了很多版本最後的划款怎麼定調這個說明一下現在請我們王逸川委員發言"},{"start":8219.998,"end":8241.778,"text":"好 謝謝召委 各位委員 各位交通部相關的同仁我的提案邏輯是這樣就是現在路上無照駕駛有兩種一種他本來就無照一種是因為他酒駕後來變成無照本來就無照這是一件事情酒駕以後他已經都被吊扣 被吊銷"},{"start":8243.188,"end":8266.635,"text":"他覺得這件事情對他來說一點都不重要他繼續開繼續開反正你也不一定攔得到他這種事情現在路上很多就他已經朋友都知道他酒駕然後都知道他罰了很多錢可是你又看到他在開車那你問他說你怎麼在開車他說反正也不會被抓到抓到就罰錢"},{"start":8268.505,"end":8290.756,"text":"抓到就罰錢所以很多委員今天的提案我是建議這樣來就是不管罰重罰輕這件事情就是最後的結果就是請交通部跟警政署針對這種他明明就是酒駕他已經根本不會有駕照了他還在開車 有恃無恐反正你第二次再被抓到抓到就是再罰錢"},{"start":8292.39,"end":8309.682,"text":"第三次他繼續開反正他就一次付十幾萬再開車那我的了解他們最痛的是他的車被扣因為這些人手上都很多兩三百萬的車你一次給他扣個幾年他就會很緊張但是你如果都不去處理這些事情"},{"start":8310.92,"end":8330.332,"text":"到最後他反正今天被抓明天繼續開所以這個裡面不管大家加重到什麼程度我沒有特別的意見但是最後就請警政署跟交通部務必在這件事情上看怎麼提出更好的方法不能讓這些酒駕被吊銷駕照的人在路上又如此的囂張好 謝謝"},{"start":8331.892,"end":8345.068,"text":"好 謝謝我們王玉昌委員因為各位提案委員都已經補充說明了看起來各位委員提出來20幾位的連署算起來我們113人可能都針對這個問題"},{"start":8348.132,"end":8361.753,"text":"所以我在看我們主管機關這裡修正動議也算滿多的我看因為這個資料我看了以後各委員提出來的重點他們都把它綜合起來了綜合起來"},{"start":8363.596,"end":8393.09,"text":"所以這個他們也修正蠻多的請各位委員也參考一下他們修正過後的所有的版本就請大家看再參考一下等一下這一條處理完了以後那個主管機關回應以後做決定以後我們就休息五分鐘讓大家方便一下就休息五分鐘跟各位委員報告一下好 那現在請主管機關回答"},{"start":8395.14,"end":8414.971,"text":"報告召委還有各位委員因為就是說委員相中應該有20幾個委員有提20幾個版本針對21條的部分那剛剛委員所隨行一些相關的課題我大概中整分幾類來做一個說明包括這個崑哲委員所提到就是說確實這一個無照駕駛"},{"start":8415.831,"end":8442.509,"text":"的這個案件數這個每一年大概是28萬到30萬但是我也跟各位報告一下這個所謂廣泛的無照駕駛其實就是現行這個21條裡面第一款到這個第五款的行為就是剛剛講的原本就沒有從來沒有零有駕駛執照這一個違規上路那另外一個部分就是說被吊銷被註銷被吊扣那違規上路這個就是一到五款裡面各種這一個無照駕駛"},{"start":8445.951,"end":8464.136,"text":"的一個部分那這個無照駕駛裡面基本上大概大概一分啦就是有老中青三代這個未滿18歲的部分然後高齡65歲以上的部分那另外還有一群就是大概就是這個18歲以上有這個駕駛資格然後到64歲的部分"},{"start":8467.237,"end":8491.856,"text":"然後車種的部分也有機車跟這個汽車那無照駕駛的車種部分的話基本上大概這個機車無照駕駛大概佔了這個六成然後這個我剛剛講的這個老中青三代的部分的話那其實這個就是說未滿這個18歲跟高齡的部分大概各佔大概是10%10點多的一個部分"},{"start":8492.176,"end":8520.258,"text":"那重要的部分大概就是剛剛有提到有一些這一個就是說上下班就是說已經在工作或等等部分沒有這個駕駛執照沒有去考領或者是說駕照被吊扣吊銷的一個部分有這樣子的情況那回過頭來就是說整個這一個房子的部分我也跟各位委員報告這個無照駕駛的部分的話在交通部本身這個到案的這個策略上面還有包括院長每個就是每一季"},{"start":8520.978,"end":8535.054,"text":"這個召開的這個中央道安防治這個匯報上面都把它列為重點事項在做處理那這些相關的部分我剛剛講不管分老中興三代還有分機車跟汽車都有不同的一個策略在做一個處理"},{"start":8535.635,"end":8557.334,"text":"那回過頭來今天這個就是說20幾個委員提案的版本那這個我也跟召委還有各位報告確實針對這樣子的課題交通部有報兩次這個修正條文到院裡面去那第一次報上去的部分院裡面是講說這個東西應該要再擴大應該再做深入的檢討所以"},{"start":8558.675,"end":8578.848,"text":"我們現在提出來的這個建議綜合各委員的一個版本的話基本上是我們第二次現在在院裡面這個待審查的一個這個內容那這個版本的部分的話基本上是交通部有兩次會議邀請這個司法院秘書處法務部還有內政部警務署還有各交通主管機關去討論出來的一個這個內容"},{"start":8581.229,"end":8597.302,"text":"那第三個 第三大部分的話我大概跟委員這一個報告剛剛我大概先回覆剛剛江千祺委員所提到說這個汽機車滑反如何算出來的部分因為我剛剛有跟各位委員報告基本上就是說車種的部分是有"},{"start":8599.163,"end":8622.388,"text":"車種的違規性基本上跟他的造成安全的一個違規性還是有差機車通常造成的部分是自己本身的傷亡但是汽車的部分的話通常造成的是別人的傷亡但是沒有駕照就是不能上路不管是基於什麼樣的原因所以大概中整個委員的版本還有這些壘犯等等的這個部分"},{"start":8622.788,"end":8647.768,"text":"大概就是剛剛委員有這個罰款如果計算出來基本上也必須要看這樣子的違規行為他所造成的傷害還有另外一個部分相同這些的部分在處罰條例其他各條款的部分他先請的罰款是什麼樣的一個這一個狀況大概是依據這樣幾個原則的部分才去切分出來就是說"},{"start":8649.449,"end":8676.184,"text":"機車跟汽車有不同的裁判區間然後另外一個部分的話因為第21條第一項裡面分10款行為大家可以看到第一項第一款到第五款的部分大概是屬於這個違規就是說無照駕駛的部分但是6789跟這個到6到9的部分基本上是屬於其他沒有學就是學習駕駛證那些是一個比較其他"},{"start":8676.844,"end":8702.623,"text":"不像第一款到這個第五款的部分所以在我們提出來的版本裡面把它切成三個類別機車 汽車還有其他的部分然後按照現行的一個裁罰基準還有這個橫評其他這個條款的一個部分來做一個處理那剛剛王一川委員提到就是說有一些這個酒駕在這個就是無照駕駛的部分"},{"start":8703.463,"end":8731.349,"text":"在上一次112年6月30號這個在修正21條的部分當時魯明哲委員就有特別提案也就是現行條文針對如果說是酒駕被吊扣吊銷駕駛到你們在上路的話按照這個21條的條文再這個加重這個1萬2那現行如果按照我們再提出來的再修正條文的話基本上就是說第一次這個處罰第二次就按照最高額來做這個處罰"},{"start":8732.529,"end":8752.118,"text":"然後我舉個例子比如說像汽車無照駕駛第二次就是這一個前面6萬然後第二次就是12萬第三次以上再加每次加1萬2上去就是跟35條一樣這個滑反沒有上限那如果說是屬於這個35條的部分的話就是1萬2再加1萬2變成加這一個2萬4然後滑反也是一樣這一個"},{"start":8756.941,"end":8781.061,"text":"這一個無上限那另外一個部分這一次也特別針對剛剛大家講的部分無照駕駛像這一個青少年部分車子從哪邊來這個就是一個很重要的課題所以在這次裡面就是說針對非這個駕駛人的這個汽車所有人一樣也是按照第一項第二項就是出犯最高法然後第二次那個最高法然後也是罰款沒有上限希望從這邊來這個"},{"start":8783.443,"end":8812.258,"text":"這個二指啦那剛剛這個蘇菲委員有提到就是說那個同車乘客跟公佈照片的部分這個部分我是建議第一個部分因為這個酒駕的時候你同車乘客是很容易判斷出來因為有酒氣這些相關的部分但是這個無照駕駛它是一個身份認證的那個部分有些東西就是說同車乘客那個部分出來的話因為你問的話大家都是說我沒有"},{"start":8813.298,"end":8836.54,"text":"去問他說你有沒有駕照或者是說他們我就覺得說這個實務上可能在執法上面有一點困難所以我們才想說這個部分是不是因為如果按照大家討論之後這個加重處罰的這個條文來實施之後再來關起這一個成效那另外一個部分的話就是說公佈照片的部分就是我剛剛講的部分因為有老中青這一個三代"},{"start":8837.08,"end":8854.082,"text":"那這個三儲條的部分是累犯三次才公佈照片我們是也是建議說這個數量確實是比較大一點是不是說大家修正完這個滑緩車輛的這個處罰汽車所有人的處罰完之後再來這個看看這些相關的成效再來做個評估以上"},{"start":8854.782,"end":8876.848,"text":"好 謝謝林局長來 各位委員我特別跟各位委員報告一下因為21條也是提高無照駕駛的華澤然後21條之一也是所以21條蔡其昌委員 陳樹業委員王逸川委員 林詩敏委員的提案"},{"start":8877.708,"end":8900.753,"text":"我請教我們各委員既然提高無照駕駛的划款都一致是否我們21條跟21條就一併21條之一我們就一併把它處理掉因為都是划者那這個部分我在看"},{"start":8902.082,"end":8929.729,"text":"交通部都參著我們各委員都提出來的這個罰則當然提案罰則不一但是主管機關這裡都參照我們的意見去把它提高的是不是剛才經過主管機關他們的說明所有的修正的部分也都呈現在書面上拜託各位委員"},{"start":8930.749,"end":8951.778,"text":"是不是因為他都參著我們各委員提案的主要的內容了去修正提高這些罰則是不是就依照主管機關第21條修正來通過21條之一也是再修正通過這樣好不好"},{"start":8953.539,"end":8978.234,"text":"好那我們21條就修正再修正通過21條之一也是再修正通過這樣各位有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就是通過再修正通過來接下來21條27條休息文中抱歉我講而已來好休息文中休息文中拜託拜託"},{"start":8994.075,"end":8996.857,"text":"你是56"},{"start":8998.278,"end":9006.261,"text":"還是寫進去比較好吧 這樣有亮點交通部這樣也有成績啊15天得展延一次啦 只要他來申請"},{"start":9024.928,"end":9042.873,"text":"中間應該會一直下去頂多休息20分鐘吃便當反正原則現在3點以前我們要把3個法律因為這個沒有爭議這個沒有爭議這個是在幫助主管機關有時候我們的意見給他嘛意思是說其實要檢討對啊 我當然 我照應說我不能讓他30天才檢驗嘛"},{"start":9051.076,"end":9061.506,"text":"我當然就是要寫 讓他比較時間比較短這樣長度才會出來我已經喬解了我都會善用你的休息時間"},{"start":9071.892,"end":9076.456,"text":"你如果要把展顏拿掉我也覺得OK啦 我也覺得OK啦越嚴格越好 我的主張是這樣"},{"start":9103.135,"end":9119.363,"text":"要調扣嗎要調扣啊 你實際上沒有寫的也可以啦 但是你是給他一個月的時間嘛那我就是縮短嘛 你不OK我就調扣了"},{"start":9124.104,"end":9145.213,"text":"對"},{"start":9147.174,"end":9160.043,"text":"我沒有講隔天就吊過啦你老一位嘛我意思是說你一位噪音車的部分有十五天啦意思是這樣啦"},{"start":9161.224,"end":9169.27,"text":"我剛有聽說十五天就會將來有這個經驗如果說十五天沒來經驗的話那你四五天沒來超過一個月我就會將來有這個經驗"},{"start":9177.197,"end":9178.679,"text":"對啦 就15加15啦對啦 噪音車要縮短"},{"start":9198.616,"end":9200.078,"text":"我覺得時間有多短就好了"},{"start":9219.215,"end":9235.791,"text":"你要寫在16裡面是嗎好啊 精神有在我OK文字上通順 你們好用就好好啊好啊好啊16條嗎他要把16條直接併在16條裡面 我說OK啊反正就是照應車要特案組"},{"start":9245.259,"end":9263.972,"text":"我覺得對我來講 發燒一直只有扣牌 發完就沒用他都改管就沒有再管他發不給你再罵他所以只要吊扣把他吊扣的壓力怎麼樣去這跟CD企劃須提超跑是一樣概念的他就是短時間的 我覺得爽一點目前都幾千塊 還滿...他原本是要發"},{"start":9268.675,"end":9292.6,"text":"因為那個是驗車嘛 驗車的部分噪音的是要照文法處理那現在是 道館是可以處理扣牌所以他本來是說17條是你接到通知後一個月內要驗車驗完了然後要不然我就扣牌 我把他收的很省錢噪音這個部分我收掉了然後另外就是要開照文法處理因為照音廣告就是在"},{"start":9297.381,"end":9308.104,"text":"就是說15日內這個通知檢驗15日內通知檢驗嘛這個預期15日以上結果掉後這一個月直至處理完為止那這個如果檢驗過後就花完可以啊那預期兩個月就註銷就註銷 OK好 謝謝 謝謝市長"},{"start":9324.808,"end":9326.008,"text":"我反正為了56年"},{"start":9343.753,"end":9343.913,"text":"郭文貴議員"},{"start":9361.411,"end":9361.831,"text":"好 好 好"},{"start":9388.797,"end":9409.991,"text":"對,謝謝"},{"start":9410.631,"end":9410.831,"text":"主席"},{"start":9433.076,"end":9452.489,"text":"要不要我這個"},{"start":9462.372,"end":9473.203,"text":"好各位大家請就座好不好來請就座好現在我們就來審第27條第27條來27條是顏匡恆委員"},{"start":9481.127,"end":9505.904,"text":"提案只有他嘛嚴匡衛委員來這個部分這個部分應該是我們主管機關是認為不以修正啦也就可能其他那各位委員有沒有什麼意見就27條他這個可能在"},{"start":9512.135,"end":9514.522,"text":"來主管機關說明一下為什麼不修正來"},{"start":9516.165,"end":9543.895,"text":"跟委員報告那個也委員他主要是針對說那個刪除第二項跟第三項就是那個就是闖越收費站跟沖撞收費人員的一個規定那個建議把它刪除那可是我們知道現在我們有去問了一下包括經濟部的向水源區還有其他領導地方都可能還有收費站的一個設置所以我們是建議這一條能夠繼續保留"},{"start":9544.455,"end":9571.568,"text":"所以建議不予修正對有那個經濟部的好那各位委員這個我們就尊重這個主管機關就不予修正大家有沒有意見好那我們第27條就不予修正來接下來第30條第30條有林德虎委員提修正來各位那個主管機關來請說明一下"},{"start":9579.227,"end":9594.577,"text":"30條部分是那個林委員建議那個路上散落物的一個處理以及那個費用的負擔那我們也了解了一下就是有像那個公路局的那個省道的散落物他已經可以依照公路法的72條來"},{"start":9597.919,"end":9626.667,"text":"做收費用的一個收取那市區道路的部分那地方政府大概也有環保單位的一個機制在處理就是對有的是用那個廢棄物清理法的部分那另外也有考量到說因為處罰條例是行政法的一個性質那費用的一個收取是屬於行政費用那兩個的那個法理的依據是不太一樣的所以我們是建議說這個是不要修正的以上"},{"start":9627.799,"end":9644.739,"text":"好各位好各位委員這個主管機關認為不宜修正大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們就不宜修正來接下來33條33條我們廖先祥委員要不要補充說明"},{"start":9647.628,"end":9665.139,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在的高速公路原則上都有超車道現在是高速公路大家應該都有看到高速公路一直在宣導最內側車道是超車道但是實際上超車道在速限上面並沒有比一般的車道速限來得放寬就導致說我們現在"},{"start":9666.46,"end":9692.033,"text":"要使用超車道的時候但是我們實際上限制是一樣的有超車道但是它並沒有辦法發揮到超車道的一個功能那因此我建議最內側車道的速限予以提高以達到我們說這個內側車道是超車道的一個法定規範既然要有超車道那速率就要提高那否則你就不要叫它是超車道因為我們現在超車道有規範說我們現在超車道你必須要維持在速限內的最高"},{"start":9692.893,"end":9710.385,"text":"速率去行駛但實務上是不可能的因為你不可能就是我們人體在開車速率一定會有一些這個上下變動嘛這個一定會有一個合理的區間去變動那我們譬如說100公里的一個限速你要他就算我們現在符合法規你在內設車道也只能夠開在100公里你開在99公里就是違規啊你開在98也是違規那你開到101"},{"start":9716.249,"end":9735.525,"text":"是違規雖然說實際上有10公里的寬限值但是實際上如果說也有判例就是打到訴訟如果說誤開然後法院其實是不會撤銷的因為實際上就是違規那因此我會建議說我們高速公路內側車道圍超車道的精神就是速度分流"},{"start":9735.965,"end":9755.675,"text":"那既然要速度分流的話那就是最內側最快那中間就是一般的速率那外側因為有交織的問題所以速率比較低那就是利用這個速限的放寬達到這樣子的一個速度分流的一個目的否則大家實際上現在很多人開高速公路我們都會認為說實際上我們要開要超車的時候我們不是到最內側車道我們常常都是開到最外側車道去超車"},{"start":9762.058,"end":9777.473,"text":"這個是實務上我想高速公路局非常清楚的一個情況那我只是希望說我既然高速公路現在積極的在宣導內車車道為超車道不能夠佔用那維持在最高速度的速率的話那我就希望他予以放寬以上好來請主管機關說明"},{"start":9779.981,"end":9803.615,"text":"那個是高速那個陳局長也跟委員報告高速公路那個速限因為速限的訂定他就是目前大概都已經依據我們當初公路設計的那個設計速率設計速率他其實是一個公路上面行駛的最高安全的一個速度"},{"start":9804.375,"end":9832.489,"text":"所以基本上那個速限差不多已經都跟高速公路設計的最高的安全設計速率一樣了所以他沒辦法再提高1.2因為如果說把那個速限再提高1.2倍其實在行駛上面其實是比較有安全的顧慮不過委員一般來說因為高速公路的速限其實這一個內側中間外側其實大家的不一定說每一個車輛都是用最高速限在行駛所以還是有一些人開得比較慢"},{"start":9833.67,"end":9850.537,"text":"所以內側的車道其實一直都是說是超車道或最高速率行駛的車道委員擔心就是說內側有的人就是用慢速在占用讓大家沒辦法超其實這個部分有在宣導而且有在執法公警局這個執法在113年就是這個慢速車占用這個內側車道有開罰兩萬六千多錢所以我想這個部分內側車道的"},{"start":9858.641,"end":9882.957,"text":"慢輸車佔用其實我們會一直來做相關的處理也跟公警局會加強來執法那因為跟委員報告就是如果要提高1.2倍確實在安全上面會比較有這個疑慮以上報告好 那個這樣啦因為廖委員先想委員提出這個也是一個講快一點啦是一個先進的想法我說實在話"},{"start":9885.11,"end":9908.315,"text":"內車道 圍欄開八站我們限定是60以上可是它明明就這80人家開的 它最高可以開100啊對不對那照常理來講你要變換車道或什麼他剛才看話捨啊所以他提這個案他提 會啦 你開滑沒有錯你抓不到嘛所以他提這個案應該是"},{"start":9910.876,"end":9931.841,"text":"利益良善那以現在的情況你們安全的考量有沒有可能把他提這個案提這個案也要納入交給你們那個交援手他們去研究一下如何去提高其實他提這個案子是未來還是要這樣做的"},{"start":9932.521,"end":9949.308,"text":"未來還是要這樣做有沒有可能就是陳局長這裡你答應他說把這個那個列入這個研究跟那個來考慮我沒有說堅持一定要就是說的內車車道 超車道它都一點都沒有我覺得這個是可以討論的"},{"start":9951.269,"end":9966.659,"text":"我覺得可以類似大型重機上國道一樣就是法定去授權我們高速公路局去做一個放寬那你們在陰地去不管是事辦也好是你們認為這個安全的路段比如說"},{"start":9968.46,"end":9983.147,"text":"上坡路段或者是右彎的路段因為我們有時候設置速率是因為視線的問題左彎的視線會受影響但是右彎的視線比較不會受影響而是你們針對個別的路段去調整看看"},{"start":9983.607,"end":10001.541,"text":"我們有設計速率啦那其實又回到其他的問題就是說有的國家是用85分位的自然流速去當作一個速率定定標準那我們是用設計規範那以前這設計規範是幾十年前的規範呢有沒有符合現在車輛的一個性能我覺得這個也是值得討論但是這個問題已經"},{"start":10003.422,"end":10015.149,"text":"太大了沒有辦法在這邊討論我是建議說你們看你們能不能同意就是授權你們去去做相關的一個放寬那去折一些路段來幫你看看以上"},{"start":10016.383,"end":10036.635,"text":"那個陳局長還有那個政次因為我認為他這個建議不一定說現在要馬上修他提出這個案我個人是支持他這個未來是有這種需要能不能就你們帶回去研究帶回去研究有一個結論跟廖委員先想這裡我們來做一個溝通"},{"start":10039.127,"end":10067.455,"text":"那以現在的情況尊重你們暫時不修訂但是這個案子要把他納入一個研究案可以嗎我們就是有一個研究分析給委員好不好是不是速限能不能再做調整就是說我們做一個分析再跟委員報告這樣子好不好因為原則上其實我們公路上面到底這個速限上面因為他其實都有一些考量的因素那我們做一個分析跟委員報告"},{"start":10068.635,"end":10087.577,"text":"那個政治這樣可以嗎可以啦 我只是要跟要委員說明就是說速限的本身就是定了就是要遵守那遵守它本身就有一定的寬域值在我們的處理細則有去處理那這個條文這樣寫下去會讓人家認為是說速限還有一個空間在這是"},{"start":10089.579,"end":10103.484,"text":"對 那至於說那個速限的本身呢合理與否要不要提高那個我想我們會請公共局來做檢討所以委員提到的速限的檢討是不是可以有到這個1.2倍的這樣的可能性我想我們納在我們的檢討裡頭再去討論"},{"start":10104.824,"end":10123.665,"text":"那個這樣好不好好啦 他們就是用直接個案去調整速限的調整而不是從法令的容許局去調整對啦好不好 這我同意那我的精神就是希望說既然我們高速公路局目前都是在鼓勵宣導內側車道要維持在最高速去巡視的這件事情那我們就希望內側道"},{"start":10125.046,"end":10149.323,"text":"超車道他真的有超車的功能那同時實務上維持在最高速率行駛這件事情是做不到的那我們要怎麼辦法讓我們的駕駛人他是在合法的情況下去行駛超車道以上謝謝好那我們33條就是不以修正不以修正然後要做一些研究報告給廖委員好不好好來現在我們談審查第35條"},{"start":10153.663,"end":10175.3,"text":"好有修正的來先讀修正動議來等一下修正動議練完以後我們再來發研究我們那個建豪誰先舉手的智傑 許智傑 趙薇 建豪這樣好來接下來附帶決議"},{"start":10186.357,"end":10194.149,"text":"修正動議修正動議來修正動議二 提案人委員林國成等針對第35條對照現行條文"},{"start":10200.953,"end":10224.622,"text":"第六項修正為汽機車駕駛人駕車發生交通事故涉犯刑法第185條之三第一項第一款或第二款等罪嫌疑拒絕接受或發生交通事故無法實施第一項第一款測試檢定者司法警察官或司法警察的報請檢察官核發鑑定許可書將其強制遺留受委託醫療或檢驗機構對其實施"},{"start":10230.004,"end":10242.793,"text":"協議檢體採樣及酒精濃度測試檢定 以下簡稱協議測試檢定有相關理由認為情況急迫時 司法警察官或司法警察得將其先行移由醫療或"},{"start":10246.467,"end":10262.953,"text":"檢驗機構實施協議測試檢定並應於實施後二十四小時內呈報該管檢察官許可檢察官認為不應許可者應於三日內撤銷之受協議測試檢定者得於受協議測試檢定後十日內申請該管法院撤銷之"},{"start":10264.741,"end":10278.936,"text":"第九項的聚首予以修正在第一項的前面將汽機車駕駛人有等文字修正為違反兩個文字"},{"start":10280.168,"end":10305.578,"text":"然後徵訂第13項文字內容為第6項協議測試檢定結果之蒐集處理或利用因應個人資料保護法相關規定辦理並僅得作為執法利用有關協議採集測試檢定保存銷毀安全維護措施等程序方法數量期限及其他相關事項的辦法由內政部會同衛生衛生福利部法務部及交通部定之宣讀完畢"},{"start":10307.562,"end":10329.06,"text":"這個是本席提的修正的動議當然這個是尊重我們主管機關的意見來做修正動議那因為第35條這個提案委員還有涵蓋蔡其昌副院長林德虎委員邱若驊委員黃建豪委員"},{"start":10330.222,"end":10341.663,"text":"網美會委員還有台灣民眾黨所以這35條那這個部分是不是現在就請喜智傑召委先發言了"},{"start":10343.028,"end":10370.266,"text":"謝謝召委 謝謝大家我想這裡的最重要的就是說之前就是警察如果要抽血那也有違憲之語所以針對酒駕這個部分呢那我們希望說未來就是改成有檢察官可以裁定那當然這個部分是不是那個交通部 那司法院 法務部是不是有意見 這個第一個方向"},{"start":10371.011,"end":10394.344,"text":"第二個方向就是說其實我們在民間受到很多的反應就是駕駛人跟所有人不是同一人的時候這個調扣到牌照真的是會變成很多所有人會覺得有冤屈這個部分我們也希望做一個修正我們請交通部以及剛才講到相關部會是不是可以發表意見"},{"start":10395.27,"end":10416.802,"text":"好這個稍等一下請那個華務部跟交通部這裡來說明來現在請黃建豪委員好謝謝昭偉我想我的提案的這個內容在修正動議裡面還是沒有放進去不過我先說明一下我覺得我的立場一向都是針對這種重大交通違規一向就是沒收車輛自買併用罰債多錢"},{"start":10419.884,"end":10440.427,"text":"或是在怎麼吊扣或是怎麼這樣子吊銷等等其實我覺得大家可以看到數據上來講不管是酒駕也好 無招駕駛也好我們稍早提到的那個假設牌也好如果只是純粹罰錢或是吊扣所謂駕照或是吊銷牌照這些情況它持續在發生那我們一直想要解決的問題是說到底酒駕為什麼這麼多人還願意停而走險"},{"start":10441.388,"end":10462.402,"text":"有一個原因是因為可能過去針對他沒有致死或是沒有造成死沒有致死的時候他的他的罰則或他的這個處分他沒有受到最嚴厲的這個狀況所以還是很多人會抱持著僥倖的心態上路那我們是希望說在法律上能夠去終止這種僥倖的心態就只要你上路我就處以"},{"start":10464.043,"end":10492.294,"text":"這個不管是罰錢也好還是會把車輛沒收因為現在所有的條文來講都是指說一致保管那過去也都一致保管這件事本身還是一樣的所以我覺得這個相對來講我覺得修法是可以稍微再積極一點不用這麼保守因為我覺得這個酒駕問題一直沒有解決我覺得是我們這個交通部門交通管機關應該要去面對的事情所以我還是希望說能夠把這個所謂沒入車輛的這個條文放進去而不是只是單純的一致保管車輛"},{"start":10492.754,"end":10509.017,"text":"那當然因為焦洛木之前講說會擔心到影響到人民的財產權但是我也覺得說這個生命比財產更重要他們這些人他寧願犧牲別人的生命然後不管這個問題酒駕上路那我覺得還是有必要在法律上去處分他們的財產以上 謝謝"},{"start":10510.85,"end":10523.761,"text":"好 謝謝黃建豪委員來 那個主管機關是不是剛剛我們喜智捷召委所疑問的在法務部的立場有什麼說明 沒有那接下來才陳局長再補充說明 來"},{"start":10526.883,"end":10540.593,"text":"保護部主席各位那目前關於35條第6項跟13項的修正草案目前有三個版本一個是蔡奇章委員一個是民眾黨團"},{"start":10541.994,"end":10571.023,"text":"還有加上剛剛徐志傑委員的臨時動議總共有三個版本那這三個版本的修法的方向大概都是配合憲法法庭宣判的意旨還有替代措施把它給條文化所以這一個方向就落實憲法判決的這個立法目的來講這個我們敬表支持那版本之間只有少部分的條文文字有一點出入大概就是兩個領域第一個就是說"},{"start":10571.823,"end":10590.313,"text":"強制採檢的前提是要是不是要符合有犯罪嫌疑還是說他只要發生交通事故就好了那大概我們參考憲法判決還有刑事訴訟法的這個法制相關的規定我們是建議呢"},{"start":10591.834,"end":10607.702,"text":"強制裁減是一個強制公權力而且是比較強烈的那必須要符合刑法有關酒駕的這個犯罪嫌疑為前提這個比較適當那第二個就是說第一線的執法人員"},{"start":10608.863,"end":10632.516,"text":"那依照刑事訴訟法的規定因為這個已經進入了酒駕犯罪的一個強制裁減證據的收集程序了那依照刑事訴訟法的規定具有這個犯罪偵查權的那還是以司法警察跟司法警察官的身份為以一般的交通警察可能還不太恰當"},{"start":10633.436,"end":10661.539,"text":"那結論來看的話因為憲法判決之後我們也有跟交通部司法院內政部有做過非常多次的這個協商跟研議那最後的這一個版本大概就是如同今天交通部我看他們有提出建議的修正條文所以我想就交通部的建議的這個修正文字我們這個敬表尊重"},{"start":10662.099,"end":10674.114,"text":"那大概我對過這個條文這些條文的內容大概也跟許智傑委員剛才的修正動議應該是是一樣的如果有遺漏這個交通部可以再補充以上說明"},{"start":10675.61,"end":10693.356,"text":"好謝謝我們法務部那個江山市來現在請陳局長主管局官來說明第一個中整這次委員提案的這一個版本的部分大概主要大概有兩個這一個方向"},{"start":10694.176,"end":10722.788,"text":"那第一個方向包括這個菜市場委員還有包括剛剛昭緯所提的這個修正動議的部分那有一塊就是剛剛這個江貞次所提到的就是那個憲法一要判決有針對那個強制這個裁減的那個部分那這個部分相關看委員的一個這個條文的部分的話差異不大那但是建議就依照這個就是昭緯的修正動議的一個這個內容來做處理那陳吳剛剛司法委員所提到部分這個部分之前"},{"start":10723.448,"end":10746.779,"text":"這一個交通部內政部還有法務部還有司法院基本上大家是有一次的一個這個共識那另外一塊的部分的話大概就是這一個加重處罰的部分那加重處罰的部分包括王衛美大概就是加了這一個五千塊那另外一個部分剛剛就是黃建豪委員所提到就是說只要酒駕是不是就直接吊銷駕照跟這一個沒路車輛的部分"},{"start":10747.179,"end":10769.862,"text":"那這個部分我跟我想這個委員對於這個就是說防治酒駕這個提案修正的這個部分這個部分是確實是在防治酒駕上面是有可能會就是說一個很強硬的一個手段那但是這邊我也必須要跟委員報告因為這個就是說"},{"start":10771.703,"end":10798.713,"text":"酒駕違反酒精標準的部分基本上是從0.15開始他那個級距是這個非常的一個多那如果說這個就是說只要酒駕就直接吊銷駕照跟這個末路車輛的那個部分的話可能就是說對於這個大家這個車輛所有或是這個相關財產上面等等的部分可能是比較要慎重去做考量"},{"start":10799.193,"end":10823.536,"text":"那但是這邊我也跟各位委員報告其實就是說以現行這個酒駕的一個處罰規定的話這幾年酒駕的案件數真的是逐年逐年都在降那真的在處罰條例裡面92個條文裡面大概酒駕的一個處罰是屬於最重然後而且講真的是罰款無上限吊扣駕照也吊銷也是這一個"},{"start":10825.257,"end":10844.265,"text":"這一個無期間大概是這樣子的一個內容那另外一個部分的話我特別也報告一下就是說就是說最近這個最高行政法院大概因為這個條例三十五條第七項第九項有一個這個明知跟那個部分的話大概有一些這一個爭議"},{"start":10845.285,"end":10861.73,"text":"那這個部分這次召委這邊有提案就是說這個回到這個原來立法的意思這個汽車所有人這個就是有明知這個駕駛人有這個酒駕的部分的話這個處罰緩"},{"start":10864.071,"end":10882.871,"text":"那但是呢這個第九項的部分就是說你只要這個酒駕的部分不論這個汽機車是屬於你所有與否那基本上就是這個吊扣這個牌照就是說現行的一個規定把它規定的更明確一點那也避免這個就是說這個司法體系跟"},{"start":10883.872,"end":10897.656,"text":"跟行政體系對於條例規定認知不一的一個部分那提案這個第7項跟第9項是有修正的一個必要 以上做一個補充好各位委員因為好來請說明那個"},{"start":10900.532,"end":10920.92,"text":"主席各位委員不好意思司法院補充意見那關於這個剛才法務部有就這個其中一項是認為說是落實111憲判一致的這個見解然後提出修法交通部的建議條文也是如此那我們對這個方向沒有意見那只是說就細部文字的部分"},{"start":10921.44,"end":10944.569,"text":"那其中還有說到涉犯刑法185-3一項一款或第二款等罪嫌疑那在這個適用法律的角度來看建議把等罪刪掉來以服明確因為等罪有可能是表示說除了這個列舉條文之外還有其他罪所以建議是把等罪刪除"},{"start":10947.09,"end":10975.589,"text":"陳法官提出來就是等還有後面還有很多把它明確化啦那這個我們主管軍官有沒有好各位委員有沒有問題好那沒有問題這樣好不好我們35條的部分我看那個針類的部分都採用我們各委員提出來的他的主要的一個一個宗旨所以是不是這樣我們就尊重"},{"start":10976.829,"end":11004.945,"text":"主管機關他的再修正通過的這些這個等罪嫌這個部分等罪嫌就第二款第二款等罪嫌把等罪嫌這個部分把它拿掉等罪啦等罪啦等罪這個特別跟各位委員來做報告可以嗎那個那個林局長"},{"start":11008.716,"end":11030.022,"text":"好 那這個部分就把我我們台灣民眾黨提出來的修正動議是跟主管機關大家來溝通所以就過這些第一個我們尊重華烏布斯華宴還有我們主管機關也認為不要牽涉到這個部分所以我們就再修正通過"},{"start":11030.962,"end":11049.836,"text":"然後委員林國成等三人所提修正動議這樣通過好不好有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就是修正通過來接下來是35條之二35條之二提案委員是建豪"},{"start":11051.705,"end":11072.302,"text":"好你也同意嗎好那這個35條之二是沒有修正本來就原有所以黃建豪跟王美惠所提的這個就主管機關是希望不予修正那大家委員有沒有意見好那沒有意見我們就不予修正那"},{"start":11076.15,"end":11099.467,"text":"好 簽下去就好另外我這個修正動議見好你要不要來簽一下這個我們共同提案就通過這個版本大家修一下吧那個蘇越你也可以來簽你們原提案人還有落華就把我那個修正動議把它大家簽一下就"},{"start":11100.449,"end":11107.688,"text":"就大家都照這個好那我們現在35條之二就是不予修正接下來第43條"},{"start":11109.827,"end":11135.39,"text":"第43條嚴匡衡委員提案主管機關也認為是不予修正請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見我們就尊重交通部的意見不予修正第44條也是我們嚴匡衡委員提出來是訂定緊急排除停讓行人的罰則"},{"start":11136.511,"end":11156.799,"text":"那這個部分主管機關也認為現有罰則但是在這個部分他也建議不予修正請問各位委員不予修正大家有沒有意見這個是44條44條那就也是44條主管機關說明一下來"},{"start":11164.656,"end":11182.093,"text":"那這裡為什麼說那個呢你們不是有修正嗎55頁這是你們有修正啊你們有修正啊是"},{"start":11189.8,"end":11204.855,"text":"對於嚴委員建議執行緊急任務的車輛遇行人可以優先權這個部分我們是考量到行人是屬於弱勢族群所以應該是到行人的規定就是七十八條"},{"start":11206.356,"end":11230.837,"text":"去做處理那另外王議員王一川委員有提到那個那個調扣就是未停讓行人致人傷亡罰則部分那我們是建議改為那個調扣駕駛執照一至二年然後致重傷或死亡吊銷其駕駛執照部分就不要修正維持現行規定"},{"start":11232.708,"end":11256.934,"text":"好 各位委員來這裡更正一下我剛才這裡講44條不予修正然後我更正一下這裡主管機關是有參酌委員提案而來做適度再修正再修正是在這裡面建議依照顏寬文委員跟王益川委員提案"},{"start":11257.754,"end":11285.615,"text":"他原來提案是在別個法條所以把它列到這裡44案這個部分所以我們就依照主管機關修正修正的這些條文大家有沒有意見好那我們這個44條就修正通過好不好來接下來第幾條好接下來我們就45條"},{"start":11288.618,"end":11314.669,"text":"第45條請各位委員參閱他這裡也有修正這裡也有參酌那45條也是顏匡恆委員跟林俊憲委員所提出來的這些版本那這個版本是依照依照是林俊憲委員的版本通過是不是"},{"start":11316.885,"end":11335.18,"text":"嚴匡衡就依照嚴匡衡跟林俊憲委員的版本通過再修正通過再修正通過第45條依照嚴匡衡林俊憲兩位委員的修正通過大家各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11336.101,"end":11354.717,"text":"好沒有意見跟委員這邊是不是在說明一下再補充報告一下基本上就是參佐兩位委員的一個部分那針對45條的部分在這個59月的部分就是說針對這個不理讓這些緊急車輛的一個划反跟相關處再做一個這個調整"},{"start":11356.338,"end":11384.666,"text":"這一個 第一個部分不禮讓的部分的話就是划完這個儲六千元以上三萬元以下並吊銷駕駛執照及吊扣該汽車牌照六個月那最後一項的部分如果說有致人死傷情形的話那處罰再加重一萬元以上十萬元以下划完並吊銷這個駕駛執照及那我們先行你的那個條文裡面請各位是不是建議再加一個字及該汽車牌照就加一個該字"},{"start":11388.404,"end":11403.924,"text":"加一個 該汽車牌照好這裡第45條的部分那個市長你說明一下加在哪邊"},{"start":11406.039,"end":11429.687,"text":"及該就是最後一段他修正的部分也就是並吊銷駕駛執照及該汽車牌照各位委員這裡加一個該也就是該汽車除了吊銷執照以外該汽車牌照該汽車牌照這裡再做修正"},{"start":11430.785,"end":11454.546,"text":"好 來 那個各位委員第45條這個部分大家有沒有意見44條所以 好 那這個沒有意見我們就照修正通過照修正通過來 請那個現在44條那個我們那個廖先生 請問一下就是行人穿越的部分就是有處理就是有號誌入口"},{"start":11457.188,"end":11477.135,"text":"那行人就是有違規的情況那導致汽車有不理讓行人的情況發生這種情況到底會不會對汽車駕駛人做出裁罰或者是以及衍生後續的一些吊鍋牌照等等的一些行為或是發生事故等等的應該有不同階級"},{"start":11479.035,"end":11502.266,"text":"跟我們報告一下如果說有這一個耗制就是說有耗制的一個部分的話那如果說行人違規的部分的話站在法律的一個這個部分的話那個東西就會比較屬於個案判定的部分就是說能注意就必須要注意如果說確實那個行人衝出來是他沒辦法注意的部分的話基本上就排除處罰的一個這個適用啦"},{"start":11502.626,"end":11517.644,"text":"因為先行法令的設計就是說其實假使即使行人違規那你駕駛人要是能夠注意到的部分你還是要去理讓他但是如果說確實的情況是沒有辦法這一個注意也沒辦法反映那個部分的話那基本上大概就不是用這一個條文的規定有過相關的解釋函嗎"},{"start":11523.015,"end":11540.545,"text":"我跟委員報告一下其實這種的部分的話也不僅在這樣子的情況啦其實有一些相關這個事故有沒有有些事故這個行人違規然後然後法官到最後判決就是已經沒辦法注意的那個已經就是沒有行者沒有這些相關的一個部分"},{"start":11542.629,"end":11567.166,"text":"對 我覺得重點是要給警政署我也覺得第一線同仁每個人的判斷的依據都不一那常常他們就是先開了再說那當然你們講的就是就是人體反應未能注意到的部分實務上也都不太會去排除都是直接開下去那我也希望說你們再喊給警政署請同仁在針對法令的部分多一些了解 以上"},{"start":11568.066,"end":11596.204,"text":"好 謝謝我們廖先祥委員那個主管機關也說明能夠提供資料給他的更了解就盡量提供好不好好那我們就回來第56條那56條提案委員這裡有修正動議應該主管機關還是依照我們的牛西廷委員魯明哲委員林業群委員的再修正的動議"},{"start":11599.299,"end":11615.486,"text":"再修正條文那這個部分就請大家參閱一下那是不是請主管機關也說明一下來那個那個還好像西庭委員這裡提出來的很重視的學校好那個陳樹葉委員"},{"start":11618.547,"end":11643.363,"text":"就是等這一個條文確定之後就是林月琼委員有一個附帶決議有有有好 謝謝附帶決議是最後面再來處理最後面再來處理因為臨時的提案修正會在這個審查的時候等一下的附帶決議會等一下全部有附帶決議在一邊處理來說明 來 西庭委員"},{"start":11647.085,"end":11669.436,"text":"好 謝謝主席這56條是針對並排停車加重罰則因為並排停車在各種違規停車的太陽裡面它應該算是影響比較嚴重的特別會影響行人的一些安全所以我想這個不管是我們的修正或者是盧委員的修正林玥琴委員的修正大概都是提高罰則因為我在你們印出來的資料裡面看到是寫"},{"start":11672.397,"end":11693.851,"text":"2400嘛 只有2400然後你們來跟我溝通的是寫1200到2400然後現在到底是怎麼樣我是覺得只要能夠合理的調高大家交通委員會有一個很好的共識這本本席都樂觀其成啦好 但是到底版本到底最後是怎麼樣然後你們有沒有跟其他的提案委員做溝通我希望了解一下狀況因為像盧委員提是比較嚴格是罰6000嘛"},{"start":11695.052,"end":11720.274,"text":"那當然重罰是好事那到底這個中間的這個存Q是怎麼抓的是希望交通部這邊先做一個清楚的說明 謝謝好 那個看那個林局長要說明或胡司長要說明 來針對56條的部分大概提案有兩個類別剛剛這一個牛委員還有這一個盧委員的部分大概是針對並排停車的部分去加重罰款"},{"start":11721.175,"end":11745.618,"text":"那這個就是說林月琴委員的部分的話大概就是原來入口10公尺如果說在沒有其他影響的部分是可以設置相關停車格位的部分林委員是希望說針對通學區那個部分要把它做一個排除那第一類有關於加重罰者的部分我跟委員因為現行罰款的部分的話大概就是並排停車是儲定額是2400元的部分"},{"start":11746.078,"end":11771.886,"text":"那這個委員這邊有提案是不是就是一千八百元到這一個三千元我們是比較建議就是說因為相對於現行的這個兩千四百元的話那一千八百元是降低了其實並排停車的部分大家其實都認為說有關安全的一個部分所以是比較建議就是說仍然維持這一個就是說定額這一個兩千四的一個部分"},{"start":11773.688,"end":11789.348,"text":"那這個盧明澤委員提案是建議說提高到這個6000元的部分那這個部分的話我也跟這個委員報告很多這個並排停車的部分會牽涉到這個就是營業車輛的一個部分"},{"start":11791.07,"end":11814.4,"text":"那這個部分的話目前部裡面是在就是說就有點之前這個就是那個違規停車然後類為檢舉跟據點項目的部分所以現在是用就是說道路的停車環境先把它完成這個優化提供足夠的這些相關林亭路段等等那個部分在做處理所以是比較建議就是說"},{"start":11817.522,"end":11831.713,"text":"從2400提高到這個6000塊這個滑板級距也這個比較大那我們是比較建議說讓這個路邊停車的環境比較更提升之後再來檢討這個滑板是建議維持2400"},{"start":11833.235,"end":11848.604,"text":"這我們溝通一下好不好因為我覺得既然你講嘛他要配合比如說道路環境的各種改善所以我們當初是把它變成有範圍嘛我本來的提案是1800到3000啦那我是覺得他也分種類一種是實在是因為道路狀況很糟糕那當然違規的行為還是要罰"},{"start":11850.225,"end":11877.21,"text":"那另外一種是基本上就沒有功德心嘛基本上就惡行惡狀所以我是覺得既然要討論並排停車你的閥環不往上調其實是不太對啦但是加上一個範圍的限制跟概念是不是比較符合你交通部說我還有一點點我還有一點點這個進退的一些裁量空間所以是不是交通部是不是要考慮一下就上限的部分稍微往上但是我們把Range做出來用1800到3000的方式來處理這樣會不會比較妥適一點是不是我請教一下"},{"start":11878.77,"end":11893.648,"text":"部分我就尊重委員的討論剛才已經有特別提到增加到太太太大的話可能會產生對那如果是到這個三千元的話如果我也沒討論是有公視交互沒有意見"},{"start":11896.964,"end":11920.44,"text":"另外在法令的部分就依照你委員的意見跟交通部你們講的有共識就好另外就是並排停車其實有一些樣態尤其是我們的並排停車沒有去規範車輛實務上我們並排停車為什麼要提高法案就是因為它對於交通的影響是比較巨大的沒有公德心的但是有一些並排停車它的樣態是"},{"start":11921.821,"end":11939.404,"text":"它裡面最外側它不是汽車它是機車但是我是汽車我也是很靠邊我其實不是大家平常想的兩台汽車那種並排違規我覺得在執法面是不是會有一些差異化就是針對交通的影響程度去做差異化的裁罰以上"},{"start":11940.41,"end":11954.822,"text":"好 那這樣好不好因為大概大家都取得一個共識的那委員的疑慮等一下也有一些附帶決議我們一併來處理所以這個案子我們就來修正通過好不好"},{"start":11960.41,"end":11983.922,"text":"就是原來那個並排停車的部分就是儲汽車駕駛人心態幣2400元划算修正成儲汽車駕駛人心態幣1800元以上3000元以下划算這樣好不好好那我們就這個56條劉希廷魯明哲還有林業群的提案就是修正通過來接下來65條"},{"start":11990.955,"end":12003.087,"text":"65條65條的部分因為蔡其昌蔡副院長沒有來然後在這個部分主管機關是建議委員提案的版本來通過那大家有沒有意見"},{"start":12004.048,"end":12027.876,"text":"好沒有意見我們就65條就照委員的修正通過來接下來67條67條是蔡熙昌委員還有林俊憲委員黃建豪委員王逸川委員及民眾黨提案所以在這個部分在這個部分也已經有提這個這個"},{"start":12032.602,"end":12035.363,"text":"好 那個請主管機關來說明一下 來針對各委員的意見我們大概都已經有吸納了是不是就建議那個依照我們建議的版本來好 這樣啦我這一條主要我們台灣民眾黨修的這個版本是因為你聯繫肇事 酒駕肇事然後聯繫撞死人我們是主張他終身不能考肇"},{"start":12062.799,"end":12077.672,"text":"那這種東西我不曉得我們主管機關我們主管機關你在顧慮保護這些連續患的這些人你還要讓他開後門因為我跟他們溝通他只有40 全國只有40個人讓他開這個門"},{"start":12080.434,"end":12102.83,"text":"我是建議你聯繫的這些酒駕造成致死這人家家裡面是很悲哀的怎麼可以再讓他考照所以我滿主張的就是這個部分應該是終身不能考照這個第一也先是台灣對於他這個酒駕造實"},{"start":12106.417,"end":12128.374,"text":"我說實在我們是非常嚴厲的非常嚴厲這比照其他國家我講實在的我們還是親的剝奪他的這個這個這個他考照的權利是大好而已啦所以我還是我還是希望我們主管機關這裡能夠參考委員這個部分也把他"},{"start":12129.58,"end":12159.145,"text":"作為嚴厲的這些懲罰我認為是有必要的所以這67條你們也同意來修正通過這個部分我是不是也請政事跟我們這個林局長還有胡司長這裡能夠這個我們可以代表政府對以酒駕照制食是非常嚴厲的譴責跟處罰所以這個部分請林局長說明一下"},{"start":12161.972,"end":12178.139,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個67條的部分的話這些相關的部分大概是中整前面大家討論完之後有增加調扣調銷這些等等的部分那在67條這邊去中整一個他可以在考照的一個這一個部分"},{"start":12179.099,"end":12203.893,"text":"那剛剛這個召委所提到的一個部分的話大概是牽扯到這個現行這個67條這個第一項跟第四項的一個規定就是說針對這個終身不得考領駕駛執照要不要這個排除曾經因為酒駕而被這個處以這個終身不得考領的一個部分那這個部分的話大概分兩個層面啦"},{"start":12204.953,"end":12231.605,"text":"一個層面就是說如果酒駕你曾經致人重傷或死亡那按照67條的部分就是說12年之後你如果12年期間都沒有相關違規的話是可以再重新申請駕照的一個考驗那另外第四項的部分的話可能中間有一些這個致人輕傷等等的部分但是他不是一次這個終身不得考領是累積起來超過6年而終身不得考領的一個這個部分"},{"start":12232.125,"end":12261.198,"text":"那這個部分剛剛昭緯所提到的部分我們是如果按照這個就是說我們提出來的這個條文再把這個納進來的話是不是建議說第一項的部分在這個就是但有第67條鎖定情形者後面排除就是說這個可以在這個67條之一鎖定期間可以在考照的部分就是排除違反第35條第一項第三項後段第四項後段"},{"start":12261.698,"end":12280.003,"text":"及第五項後段外不再實現這個是屬於這個一次這個不得終身考臨加持執照這個在修正的部分那針對第四項可能就是累積起來超過6年那這個也是屬於終身不得考臨加持執照的部分那第四項我們是建議就是說"},{"start":12282.003,"end":12300.102,"text":"但有67條之一鎖定前行外後面再增加除違反第35條第三項前段第四項前段第五項前段者外不再此限排除這一個67條之一鎖定在一定期間內可以重新申請考驗的一個狀況以上"},{"start":12301.516,"end":12316.628,"text":"好謝謝我們林局長那個特別我們部裡面這裡也提出一個修正啦剛才已經講得很清楚現在就再修出來請各位委員看一下好那"},{"start":12319.549,"end":12340.651,"text":"沒有關係大家看一下也就是六十七條就是本黨以及蔡其昌委員林俊憲委員黃建豪委員王一川委員所提的也是終身不能考照那有其他的幾個修正的這些條文就請各位委員看一下"},{"start":12341.252,"end":12363.52,"text":"因為這樣也可以有嚴厲的制裁其他的部分也有時間的這些緩衝期那這個部分各位委員有沒有意見那沒有意見的話我們就再修正通過好不好依照再修正通過好不好這樣好不好好沒有意見我們就再修正通過來那因為"},{"start":12366.544,"end":12389.752,"text":"16條這個部分剛剛已經協商完畢協商完畢第16條的部分也秀出來一下第16條16條之一啦並到16條來好那個本來原來那個劉希廷委員所提的這個也經過主管機關溝通起來大家看一下來大家看"},{"start":12394.346,"end":12407.731,"text":"好那個這個原來是也有牛西林委員提的一個修正動議啦那還是還是那個宣讀一下好不好先讀一下我們再來做處理請先讀"},{"start":12408.86,"end":12429.984,"text":"修正動議三 提案人委員廖先祥以及劉許廷等委員針對第16條的第二項修正後文字為前項第一款署非原形式排氣管不依規定申報異動登記者按前項罰還最高額加倍處罰之並則令其於15日內檢驗"},{"start":12433.365,"end":12459.293,"text":"公路監理機關得收取檢驗費用於其十五日以上者並調扣其牌照自檢驗合格後發還於其兩個月以上者註銷其牌照第一款至第五款病因則另改正反光值病因撤除第六款除因依最高額處罰外該高因量或發出不合規定因"},{"start":12461.093,"end":12487.19,"text":"應調制喇叭或噪音器物並應沒入宣讀完畢好那個跟各位報告就這剛才已經經過協商然後把16條之一就不以修正然後把裡面的內容增在第16條那16條第二項的部分所以現在秀出來各位委員有沒有意見沒有意見 來"},{"start":12489.682,"end":12517.823,"text":"我問一下因為我們條文是寫第來 再回來一下剛剛第16條我回來第16條第2項對那因為他寫前項第一款前項第一款但是剛剛你們給的附帶決議就是給警政署的那個部分你們寫到你們是用第二款你們到底是要用第一款還是第二款來處理第一款那你們剛剛附帶決議是不是寫錯款了"},{"start":12521.653,"end":12542.382,"text":"互帶決議有沒有就應該一致性我們剛剛都在討論的是一樣的東西對互帶決議那個條款不要寫錯因為你是寫第二款然後他在靜態的時候也是就是行駛雖然說他是靜態但是行駛的時候會危害那照理來說你只要很簡單的寫到第一款就好了是不是有沒有關係沒有關係沒有關"},{"start":12552.372,"end":12554.993,"text":"沒有寫到款式啦 來來來他好像沒有寫到款式啦對啦 他直接那個OK 好好 那不好意思 那我可以看清楚好 那我們現在就做以上的決定第16條我們就修正通過第16條之一"},{"start":12577.082,"end":12587.648,"text":"不以增訂那這樣大家有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就照這樣結議好謝謝接下來接下來我們就審第72條"},{"start":12603.459,"end":12618.412,"text":"好那這個第72條是照羅志強委員修正的版本通過大家有沒有意見你們有修正啊來你們那個請說明有修正說明一下"},{"start":12619.897,"end":12643.823,"text":"羅委員他主要有兩個部分第一個部分是那個第一項是那個第二項的部分是那個擅自變更電動電動輔助自行車及微型那個電動二輪車那個規格的部分他是提高罰款跟禁止其行使那這個部分我們是建議那個同意那個羅委員的意見"},{"start":12644.443,"end":12661.694,"text":"那第二第三項的部分是有有增加那個可以就是違違反的可以依照那個第12條來處罰那這個本來就可以對已經有含釋據做處理的這個不需要對不需要再訂定所以建議第三項刪除"},{"start":12663.43,"end":12682.302,"text":"跟委員報告基本上重點就是說那個加重緩緩的部分我們原則這個贊同委員的提案那委員提案的文字我們足以這個調整一下那第三項的部分就是說這些規格如果超出那個電動這一個就是說那個微型這個二輪車"},{"start":12683.944,"end":12696.202,"text":"時速25公里這些相關限制的話交通部本來就有解釋那個就按照這個汽機車來做處罰所以第三項是不用再增修所以建議按照這個羅志強委員的這個內容再修正這個通過"},{"start":12697.776,"end":12721.683,"text":"好 謝謝交通部來這個案子就罰款的部分就依照我們羅志強委員的通過那其他的其他的部分其他的部分就依照我們交通部裡面的再修正這個條文通過那大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們就這個就修正通過"},{"start":12722.843,"end":12744.271,"text":"接下來是78條78條經過協商溝通以後我們依照台灣民眾黨的版本來通過修正通過大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們就提案修正通過78條的部分接下來是80條"},{"start":12751.918,"end":12774.483,"text":"那個那主管機關這裡是依照魯明哲委員提案修正通過各位大家有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就依照魯明哲委員提案的修正通過那接下來是84條80條接下來我們大家看84條那84條"},{"start":12779.255,"end":12796.803,"text":"是依照還是依照台灣民眾黨提案這個是可能就是經過溝通以後台灣民眾黨提案修正通過大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們84條都依照台灣民眾黨版本通過"},{"start":12798.311,"end":12817.118,"text":"好接下來85條之385條之3有蔡其昌副院長林俊憲委員陳樹葉委員等所提案那這個部分主管機關要不要說明因為溝通以後要來補充說明一下"},{"start":12817.698,"end":12841.49,"text":"這部分重點說明一下因為各個委員的提案修正85條之三的部分都是配合前面他相關提案的版本去做修正那這個那因為前面的一個這個最後通過的一個版本那我們有再做一個這個重整所以建議是不是依照這個蔡啟昌委員林俊憲委員跟陳書惠委員等提案那交通部再修正的建議來通過"},{"start":12843.393,"end":12859.353,"text":"好各位委員這個也經過溝通第85條之3依照3位委員提案修正通過大家有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就修正通過接下來"},{"start":12862.233,"end":12883.467,"text":"好 接下來我們第87條87條也是我們蔡吉昌副院長等所提那現在這裡是修正這個87條的部分也是蔡委員提案修正通過"},{"start":12884.625,"end":12903.752,"text":"是嗎你們沒有修正通過大家有沒有意見那沒有意見我們就蔡七湯委員所提案修正通過現在接下來第92條第92條有林進憲委員廖先祥委員台灣民眾黨"},{"start":12906.293,"end":12928.696,"text":"還有王世堅委員等提案那現在是不是那個先祥有沒有說明來好 謝謝這一條 昨天當然交通部有來溝通那只是交通部有說我們可能採取不予修訂但是會以附帶決議的方式來進行但是我目前為止還沒有看到我們交通部要你的附帶決議的條文內容"},{"start":12930.217,"end":12958.813,"text":"那當然說這一條的精神就是以機車機車平權的立場來看這件事情那過去我們國家對於機車族的一個限制是非常的讓機車族都只能行在外側車道那常常跟外側的公車產生嚴重的交織那近幾年 近幾年雖然說有在推動外二車道都去做一些放寬的限制但是目前為止也都僅止於外二車道而已"},{"start":12959.894,"end":12976.494,"text":"目前為止因為地方政府常常在設立進行機車的時候常常都把我們交通部的道路交通安全規則99條第一項拿出來當作不予開放的理由當然我們交通部"},{"start":12978.396,"end":12996.378,"text":"在做相關答詢的時候或者是答詢過後也都有韓文給地方政府告知第99條第一項的規定並不是給地方政府用來做進行機車的依據但是長期來推動的速度相當緩慢因此我才會想要提這個法令就是希望說地方政府"},{"start":12996.978,"end":13021.299,"text":"因為我們國家不只是交通啦國家在做任何的限制人民行為的時候應該都要有明確的一個規範應該是原則開放例外禁止的情況下才是比較好的一個方式但是目前對於機車族的限制好像都是原則禁止例外開放我是講就是除了外惡的部分那所以說如果說交通部能夠承諾我"},{"start":13022.62,"end":13051.001,"text":"未來的時間能夠積極的督促地方政府針對不合時宜的進行機車的規範去做調整的話那我當然是同意交通部在不動調法條的情況下去推動因為這個有點類似基本法的概念有點類似基本法的概念希望維護機車主的權益交通部你們等一下把這個附帶絕育的部分昨天承諾我的部分拿出來我覺得這個可以再溝通 謝謝"},{"start":13052.133,"end":13069.621,"text":"好來主管局官要不要說明一下委員提到的那個附帶決議的部分因為剛剛一開始就先處理兩個附帶決議那第一個附帶決議就是有關委員提的部分就是說要來檢討這個檔案規則99條的部分做系統性的評估這些相關的一個部分"},{"start":13070.389,"end":13087.837,"text":"對 這個是臨時提案這個是我為了怕我覺得分兩部分一個就是我很明確的指到道路交通安全規則99條第一項的部分我也不寫得太明我原本是希望說直接把那條拿掉就是有關於機車在無標識標線行駛在外二車道這個問題我想要"},{"start":13089.978,"end":13117.441,"text":"直接拿掉但是避免我們溝通的摩擦造成委員會開會可能比較拖時間我就授權我就希望說我們交通部後面調整那當然調整過程中來跟我做一些溝通那另外一部分就是我們來督促地方政府督促地方政府檢討我們進行機車的部分的部分這個應該是昨天副市長來我這邊的時候有提到要附帶局我覺得應該是分兩部分如果說還沒你看是不是能夠等一下這個先跳過等一下趕快擬一擬"},{"start":13120.573,"end":13138.373,"text":"這個這樣好不好這樣好不好那個附帶結議你們寫一下他的理由就是很簡單現在可以暫時不修訂但是附帶結議那個名稱一定要那等一下我們附帶結議才要處理所以現在趕快轉一下給委員看一下如果OK的話那"},{"start":13144.11,"end":13173.59,"text":"好那這樣好不好我做以上這樣處理也就是因為主管機關認為現在就不以修正維持現行條文但是後面的互代結議要看一下好不好這樣好不好各位委員我們就92條不以修正那大家有沒有意見沒有我們就暫時也就是不以修正維持原條文"},{"start":13174.49,"end":13191.068,"text":"好那現在接下來是92條之二那92條之二那92條之二是蔡其昌副院長林思明委員等提案那主管機關是認為依照委員提案來"},{"start":13194.423,"end":13216.634,"text":"我們是建議依照兩個委員的提案那有些文字我們在這個修正就依照我們這個建議在修正的好那這個主管機關是依照兩位委員所提案的本質然後他們用文字修正修正通過那那個你們那邊有修正嗎有喔好"},{"start":13223.645,"end":13252.168,"text":"各位委員 那這個就現在 等一下這個就是依照提案委員的修正通過大家有沒有意見好 沒有意見我們就92條之2修正通過好 那現在我們回來再來處理第7條之1第7條之1也剛剛我們習曉新委員等提案已經有充分說明他的理由"},{"start":13252.808,"end":13262.21,"text":"那也經過溝通那不曉得現在主管機關認為現在是有沒有溝通的結論"},{"start":13271.584,"end":13299.095,"text":"那因為我們這個修法的完整性我在看這個部分你們有沒有可能就把它列入他在乎的這些列入一個研究那事後再來跟我們習委員來做報告所以就暫時不以修正然後你們後面要進行跟他溝通他希望如何去達到這個保護這些的措施可以不可以這樣"},{"start":13300.347,"end":13326.798,"text":"好各位委員這樣有沒有意見好沒有意見我們的第七條之一就不以修正維持現行條文但請主管機關再跟習委員來做充分的溝通這樣好不好好那我們以上哪一個"},{"start":13328.12,"end":13353.113,"text":"好在67條的部分來接那個我們主管機關再來做一個確認來一下67條的部分有沒有秀在螢幕上秀一下這樣比較準確度來上面的文字大家看一下來67條你們修正的部分"},{"start":13358.362,"end":13376.152,"text":"有沒有 有沒有有修改了好 那現在已經有修改了剛剛有幾個字是有出入的現在已經修改回來的就請各位委員再看一下再看一下好就是附帶結議"},{"start":13377.369,"end":13394.904,"text":"好 那現在我們所有道交法條道交法條都已經逐條審查完畢那接下來我們就處理四個互代決議我們請先讀互代決議內容請先讀"},{"start":13405.137,"end":13430.506,"text":"附帶決議依提案人委員徐富奎等鑒於目前中央各部會及地方政府對於通學區之劃設及其定義人為一致考量修法後地方政府實務執行上可能遭遇之困境原請交通部應於本法第56條第6項修正通過後一個月內召集教育部及內政部國土署等相關部會及地方政府針對通學區之劃設及其定義"},{"start":13431.326,"end":13460.372,"text":"延伤统一标准与内容以提升全国法令规范一致性协助地方政府落实执法强化对于儿少同学安全之保障附带决议二提案人委员林国成等我国国人依规定考领考领有之国内驾驶执照现行于吊销吊扣注销及禁止考领驾驶执照期间本不得在持所"},{"start":13461.292,"end":13490.002,"text":"外國駕駛執照換領我國駕駛執照交通部並以一百一三年九月二十日交運至地一一三零零一六一五七號函說明民眾持我國駕照吊銷進考期滿後自應重新接受國內相關駕照管理規定經考驗合格後方予發照為求明確請交通部應與道路交通安全規則明定相關規定以立國人遵守"},{"start":13490.822,"end":13512.869,"text":"附帶決議三 提案人委員廖先祥等並更非原廠行事排氣管車輛不依規定辦理並更登記行駛及停放中車輛現行以可依據道路交通管理處法條例第七條之二進行舉法之鑒於並更非原廠行事排氣管之車輛停放當下"},{"start":13513.949,"end":13531.952,"text":"雖未產生噪音污染但上路後仍會對社會安寧產生危害請警政署加強員警教育訓練加強取締停放中變更非原廠形式排氣管不依規定辦理變更登記之車輛附帶決議事提案人委員廖先祥等"},{"start":13533.598,"end":13559.435,"text":"道路交通安全規則第99條第一項規定系公駕駛人行駛道路之遵循而非道路主管機關或設內車道進行機車之通則依據道路車道安全合理使用人應由各道路主管機關考量道路幾何設計車流特性車種組成及相關管理措施如機車流量左轉專用車道或專用時向"},{"start":13563.137,"end":13590.308,"text":"專用石箱等維護交通安全前提下因地質疑檢討第三車道開放機車行駛及直接左轉原請交通部加強督導各道路主管機關系統性檢討規劃符合行車安全之合理車道配置 避利各類車輛安全行駛宣讀完畢好來請問主管機關戶待結議第一案有沒有意見"},{"start":13593.072,"end":13610.201,"text":"好沒有意見我們第一案的附帶決議就通過來接下來第二案的附帶決議請問主管機關有沒有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就第二案通過第三案請問主管機關有沒有"},{"start":13611.181,"end":13633.588,"text":"意見沒有意見好沒有意見我們第三案的附帶決議就通過接下來第四案的附帶決議請問主管機關有沒有意見沒有意見好沒有意見我們就照附帶決議通過以上有四案的附帶決議我們就全部通過接下來好"},{"start":13637.526,"end":13647.149,"text":"接下來我們就休息20分鐘然後休息20分鐘我們有審查公路滑還有停車場滑 這兩個滑我們休息20分鐘以後繼續要審這兩個滑"},{"start":13660.214,"end":13688.165,"text":"那特別也就是前段我們審查道交條例所有條文都處理完畢那等一下休息20分鐘用餐完了以後審公路罰以及停車場罰至於審這兩個罰跟法案無關的單位可以自行離開跟法案有關的還是要繼續留下來"},{"start":13689.891,"end":13703.095,"text":"這樣各位有沒有意見好 沒有意見沒有意見我們現在請工作人員花便當好不好 花便當我們用餐時間20分鐘12點40分我們繼續神後面兩個華公路華跟停車場華"},{"start":13715.701,"end":13716.781,"text":"好各位各位我先"},{"start":13740.939,"end":13766.981,"text":"各位因為我們早上道交條例審查完畢我們先把有關法令宣讀一下那可以繼續用餐可以繼續用餐好各位我知道我知道我知道那個不要其他"},{"start":13768.001,"end":13786.689,"text":"好我們道路交通管理處罰條例我們修正草案各法案經已分別審查完略分別擬具審查報告提報宴會討論 宴會"},{"start":13795.663,"end":13804.909,"text":"提報宴會討論 宴會討論前不需交由黨團協商宴會討論時經由您召集人由您召集人過程補充說明"},{"start":13827.129,"end":13853.358,"text":"請交通部審查審查結果如有補充立法說明請盡速送交通委員會以便列入審查報告一併呈送立法宴會條文第三條次引述條文部分文字及"},{"start":13855.14,"end":13880.587,"text":"引用條次授權主席及議事人員來整理本次這個部分的條文我們就暫時休息接下來休息以後審逐條審查公路滑以及停車場滑以上做道交條例的宣示謝謝各位現在休息20分鐘"},{"start":15207.574,"end":15224.424,"text":"好 各位大家辛苦了我們現在來審查公路法公路法我們提案委員林俊憲委員第27條結論"},{"start":15230.936,"end":15251.594,"text":"好 那個各位委員來第27條大家有沒有意見因為主管機關這裡要不要補充說明他們是尊重提案委員然後來修正通過大家 那個來胡司長說明一下"},{"start":15252.988,"end":15270.28,"text":"這個部分我們大概是建議就是依林委員的意見來修正那只有名稱的部分我們是建議修成那個公路使用養護安全管理費那這個部分也有跟委員先溝通過有跟委員溝通過那這27條"},{"start":15274.788,"end":15283.263,"text":"27条我们就修正通过大家有没有意见好没有意见我们接下来就进行公路法的第28条"},{"start":15285.273,"end":15307.803,"text":"那28條也是林俊憲委員所提案這個也是跟前面一樣是名稱修正而已這個也是名稱修正也就是林俊憲委員版本然後名稱修正也是修正通過大家有沒有意見沒有意見我們接下來就32條"},{"start":15311.189,"end":15318.815,"text":"32條的部分我們有希納克委員的版本然後有提了一個建議那是不是就建議依照我們的修正版本通過"},{"start":15319.417,"end":15340.205,"text":"好 32條有陳冠廷委員 習滬葵委員 廖先祥委員那請問先祥有沒有說明好 沒有說明因為主管機關已經把三位委員提案的本職跟需求把它納入修正"},{"start":15340.825,"end":15361.751,"text":"那現在是修正通過大家有沒有意見好沒有意見第32條我們就依照委員的修正通過現在進行第33條33條是陳冠廷委員提出的修正案那請問主管機關"},{"start":15362.591,"end":15390.728,"text":"那33條的部分主要是委員的建議已經規定於公路路線設計規範那所以我們建議不用再修正這個條文所以建議不修正好有跟提案委員說明過嗎沒有齁好那這個事後要去那個齁那我們就尊重主管機關公路法的第33條的部分就不以修正大家有沒有意見"},{"start":15392.213,"end":15410.441,"text":"好沒有意見的話我們就接下來就39條之一提案委員有台灣民眾黨還有馬文君委員邱若驊委員提出的修正若驊要不要說明"},{"start":15411.861,"end":15426.69,"text":"不用說明 這個部分主管機關請說明這個部分包括邱委員還有民眾黨團還有馬委員的意見都一樣我們是依照委員的意見修正"},{"start":15427.21,"end":15446.86,"text":"好那主管機關是依照委員提案的意見修正通過大家有沒有意見好沒有意見我們接下來就第46條提案委員是何新淳委員提案好那請主管機關說明"},{"start":15450.799,"end":15471.344,"text":"針對何委員的一個這個提案的部分的話上次在專案報告大概也有跟委員報告就是說公路主管機關應急主動的話是有他的自在困難之處那上次也報告就是說那我們公路監理機關如果知道的話我們也會這個主動來做一個協助所以建議依照委員的這個修正版本再修正就是"},{"start":15471.844,"end":15481.44,"text":"在這個第三項地方就是增加公路主管機關知悉前項受害者本人或其配偶親屬時得主動通知其申請之"},{"start":15483.925,"end":15508.993,"text":"好 那主管機關的說明請問各位委員有沒有意見因為就是依照委員提案再修正通過大家有沒有意見好 沒有意見我們就修正通過接下來是60條之一提案委員也是何新淳委員請主管機關說明"},{"start":15510.579,"end":15536.097,"text":"那這個也是依委員的意見修正就是要將要將送達文書以雙括號發送那這個我們是依委員意見好依照委員提案修正依照委員提案通過依照委員提案通過那接下來是65條提案委員是王逸川委員那請主管機關說明"},{"start":15538.158,"end":15559.372,"text":"那65條的部分是委員要增加第三責任保險那這個部分我們同意委員的意見那不過我們建議增加第四項那這個主要是因為如果我們要查證那個保險資料的時候需要借接的那個訊息所以我們建議加第四項的條文"},{"start":15560.12,"end":15573.728,"text":"好65條我們主管機關是遵照提案委員意見然後修正通過大家有沒有意見好沒有意見好來請說明那什麼單位"},{"start":15578.598,"end":15601.255,"text":"委員好金管會保險局那因為這個委員的立法說明是有提到說要包含那個要增加第三人責任保險部分那因為立法說明有提到包含財務損失那因為現在那個財務損失的部分因為他這畢竟是商業保險那如果把財務損失納進去的話一方面可能跟現行這個旅客責任保險只有包含這個"},{"start":15602.516,"end":15603.597,"text":"你們希望怎麼那個來你們希望怎麼修"},{"start":15633.226,"end":15657.098,"text":"你們提一下看怎麼修不然的話這個就照提案通過不然就是你們如果有提修證那當然就提案通過那兩者是不一樣的如果我是照委員提案就照委員的意思那你們認為哪邊有修法疑慮的情況那你們現在能不能修"},{"start":15661.124,"end":15682.24,"text":"好那你這樣好不好你這樣好不好請你提供那說明欄的部分我們把它加下去那請你提供說明欄的部分那這個案由還是讓他通過但是你們的提案說明把它講更清楚那提出來然後我們列入會議記錄這樣好不好好那我們這一條嘛"},{"start":15687.964,"end":15705.175,"text":"好 65條就依照委員提案修正通過沒有修正吧 有有有好 接下來我們就公路華的第72條提案委員是林俊憲委員 來這個通過了嗎對 那個是65條"},{"start":15716.271,"end":15738.936,"text":"他們有修正那現在72條也是林俊憲委員來請主管機關說明那這個部分我們是支持那個林委員的意見就趙委員的意見修正好這沒有修正嗎好那就好來請說明來是那趙委各位委員那我們經濟部這邊有兩點意見"},{"start":15741.477,"end":15765.484,"text":"第一個是鄰居縣委員增訂第四項是為了保障用路面安全的條文我們支持這個條文但是在這個條文文字裡頭我們是有一個建議就是說針對管線機構在設置或維修回填路面漆片這部分"},{"start":15766.364,"end":15784.034,"text":"因為這個期限我們是建議是說是不是可以增訂一個保固期限內就是由管線單位來負責因為管線單位在施作之後其實它有依照市區道路使用費的收費標準來繳納相關的一個維修的費用"},{"start":15784.854,"end":15802.507,"text":"所以我們具體的建議的條文是在我們第四項的中間這一段就是在確實回填與臨街路面齊平之後增訂一個且於公路機關鎖定道路施工回填後之保固期限內加這幾個文字來做這個路線單位做責任的歸屬"},{"start":15808.411,"end":15837.481,"text":"這是第一個意見另外在說明的部分我們是建議在針對第五項的這個特殊需求免於這個下地的這個範圍這個部分在台電公司這刮糊二的部分說明的第三點的刮糊二台電公司這個配電線路這部分在這個200公尺範圍內之後增訂中央級地方機關交通廠站大型醫院軍事基地"},{"start":15838.001,"end":15859.17,"text":"科學園區 產業園區 國家公園這幾個地點就是屬於這個有特殊需求因為它有維修的一個急迫性所以這幾個地方我們是建議說可以把它列舉進來然後到時候在我們在訂這個特殊需求範圍的時候就可以有一個依據當然這兩個意見是不是請趙偉這邊給我們謝謝"},{"start":15865.239,"end":15873.711,"text":"那個經濟部你們難怪就是慢吞吞我請問一下這個資料送給你們什麼時候送給你們的"},{"start":15875.759,"end":15897.224,"text":"這個資料另外補充一下你不會今天才看到嗎對 然後另外補充一下我們昨天有跟林俊憲委員提案委員跟他溝通林委員基本上是支持我們的建議修正的一個文字以上補充是啦 以後像這種東西你要知道立法院在審議算不是只有提案委員"},{"start":15898.975,"end":15921.838,"text":"還有其他委員在審所以你們這種資料應該要早一點讓立法院知道我們立法院交通委員會這裡搞不好剛剛才收到你們的東西所以當然有美中不足的地方你們要修我們基本上立法院都會尊重你們但是我坦白講我在當主席"},{"start":15922.919,"end":15947.596,"text":"我基本上我是非常重視這些彼此之間互相尊重的態度所以我覺得經濟部是現在就拿出來你要叫我去那個說實在我個人無所謂但是這是立法院在修法交通委員會在修法尊嚴的問題所以我要拜託下不為例不可以這樣"},{"start":15949.177,"end":15972.036,"text":"修華這老早就送給你們了你們有意見要趕快表示意見對不對要跟交通部去溝通說我們這裡有意見你們是不是幫我們修正動議一定要這樣我一向主張我在當主席在審任何東西的時候我非常重視就是彼此之間的尊重"},{"start":15973.274,"end":15997.93,"text":"因為立法院是立法機構並非菜市場這是我一向主張的所以我要建議經濟部不管其他單位以後要特別去注意別的委員會怎麼樣我不曉得我在當主席非常重視這些好不好那來交通部交通部經濟部提出這些來那個交通部有沒有什麼意見來來來來"},{"start":16007.658,"end":16035.088,"text":"跟召委跟各委員報告 基本上剛剛經濟部所提的意見因為以管線單位來講他們的保固是他們跟廠商的契約基本上我們公路主管機關是沒有這樣的規定那剛剛講的說這樣的字眼因為我們昨天才收到這樣的訊息剛剛還跟市長在討論那這個文資要怎麼修正是不是容我們跟經濟部在討論這樣 以上"},{"start":16036.616,"end":16059.246,"text":"好來這個72條部分先行保留因為我還是要拜託各單位真的要重視這些你看看順順的去審條例結果你們就一耽擱那個進行你們進行兩個單位進行協調一下好不好來好75條"},{"start":16061.747,"end":16082.232,"text":"75條也是林俊憲委員所提案那請主管機關說明這個部分我們也是建議修正名稱而已所以就照修正名稱好那主管機關就是遵照提案委員修正沒有修正吧有有"},{"start":16084.215,"end":16097.665,"text":"名稱有修正還是修正通過因為名稱有修正這個75條就修正通過修正通過來你們協調了怎麼樣好你們繼續協調我們要審查其他的法案來我們停車場停車場法來"},{"start":16126.738,"end":16128.488,"text":"好各位委員跟各位委員報告"},{"start":16131.114,"end":16159.773,"text":"我們現在要審查停車場華停車場總共有三個條三個吧總共有三個條文現在我們審第四條停車場華第四條林俊炫委員以及廖宣祥委員提案現在請我們廖委員有沒有說明廖委員"},{"start":16160.914,"end":16173.782,"text":"第四條第四條你會不會好那弄錯了好第四條請儲管機關說明"},{"start":16179.625,"end":16205.757,"text":"好 跟 張委跟各位報告 第四條修正就是汽車燃料使用費就跟剛公路法二十七條一併修正成那個公路使用養護管理安全管理費就配合名稱修正好 以上好 第四條就是按照那個林俊憲委員的提案讓我們稍微做文字的修正名稱的修正再修正通過"},{"start":16206.465,"end":16227.655,"text":"好 那就依照提案委員修正通過來 接下來第32條提案委員是廖先祥委員以及洪孟凱委員等兩位委員提案現在請廖先祥委員說明好 謝謝召委員"},{"start":16228.095,"end":16255.681,"text":"那交通部昨天有來溝通啦那交通部是說就現有的法令就現有的法令如果說電動就是在專用的充電車格沒有依照規定就是細部規定的話那我們目前是確實可以裁罰也可以脫掉那我也不下附帶決議啦就請我們交通部一樣喊個吻給警政署讓警政署知會所有的警察同仁"},{"start":16256.321,"end":16277.713,"text":"那至於第二項因為昨天比較沒有談到第二項的部分就是業者主動通報的話那我想就簡單做個文字修正就好了就是你們可能會認為說未有充電事實可能會跟你們的一些授權主管機關的規範如果說有相抵觸的話會比較麻煩那我就"},{"start":16279.134,"end":16299.482,"text":"建議就是修正成就是如果說電動如果車輛停放未依照這個主管機關定義的辦法未依照主管機關的這個規定停放的話那業者也必須要通報業者必須要通報主管機關跟警察機關這樣才能夠維護充電電動車主的權益以上"},{"start":16308.767,"end":16316.231,"text":"主管機關請說明我們可以同意 我們寫個文字寫個文字 第一項主要 第二項改的"},{"start":16320.37,"end":16332.184,"text":"好這樣好不好因為這個來還是溝通一下把文字稍微修一下那我們現在這32條就先暫擱等一下再回來處理來接下來38條38條是台灣民眾黨所提來主管機關請說明"},{"start":16340.848,"end":16353.924,"text":"好跟召委跟各位人報告就是有關第38條是台灣民眾黨團的提案他提案的重點就是違反第二七條之一的電動汽車充電專用停車位的比例還有充電設備的設置規定"},{"start":16356.727,"end":16381.756,"text":"如果不符合規定兼通知限期改善不改善要裁罰那基本上我們尊重黨團的提案那我們同意修正但有些建議就是針對一第27條之一的第一電動汽車充電專用停車位設置比例與充電設置設備設置的文字修正為一第27條的第一及第二項鎖定的辦法"},{"start":16382.976,"end":16411.392,"text":"主要是我們第27條的第一及第二項鎖定法比較全面規定比較詳細可以提供地方政府主管機關來管理那第二個裁罰的部分我們建議參考公路法第77條對汽車運輸業者違反管理規定之罰則訂定9000元以上9萬元以下的罰還那另外也得按次處罰那必要時得處30日以下的停業處分那以上"},{"start":16418.54,"end":16436.675,"text":"好那這個我們第38條台灣民眾黨所提案那個就修正修正通過齁這個剛才你們所修正的就修正通過來又回來32條來"},{"start":16443.688,"end":16462.211,"text":"32條剛剛廖委員所提到的部分就這樣就是說第一項是維持現行條文然後第二項的部分就是加一個這一個就是說電動汽車與電動汽車充電專用停車位為依規定使用為依規定使用因為"},{"start":16468.243,"end":16474.867,"text":"那就直接就是汽車啦汽車與電動電動這個電動汽車能不能還是修在雲幕一下給委員看一下修在那裡來"},{"start":16505.417,"end":16519.986,"text":"弄完了"},{"start":16526.787,"end":16542.135,"text":"好帥喔 你們的那個汽車要遙遙遙遙遙遙"},{"start":16566.581,"end":16583.392,"text":"好 32條好 有了 有了32條有沒有問題OK嘛好 那就32條就依照秀在這裡修正通過依照廖先祥委員 洪孟愷委員"},{"start":16585.511,"end":16606.94,"text":"那個修正通過好不好可以嗎對 交通部修正通過嘛好那公路滑三條已經逐條停車場滑第四條跟32條跟38條我們逐條討論完畢好 來"},{"start":16621.894,"end":16640.147,"text":"主席不好意思有關於那個38條原先委員提案的部分他是處那個辦法裡面的一個有關於說是專用停車位設置的比例或充電那後來交通部的再修正是說處二七條之一第二項鎖定辦法那因為他那個辦法裡面規範的東西很多那我們通常會要求比較明確"},{"start":16645.071,"end":16664.733,"text":"他現在變成說你只要辦法的任何一個地方全部違反都要處罰所以這個部分還是請交通部他一定要比較鎖定特殊的範圍不要整個辦法裡面只要一違反某一個小條就都要處罰所以這個範圍是不是有點太大所以還請主席跟交通部這邊可以再研究 謝謝來 那個林局長"},{"start":16665.794,"end":16678.13,"text":"林局長他現在剛才所講的就是說要比較明確化啦不要依照這個辦法好像無窮盡而去開滑單所以這個部分要不要要不要怎麼修怎麼修一下38條"},{"start":16680.525,"end":16697.373,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實這個立法例跟這個公路法就是那個授權訂定汽車運輸管理規則一樣那裡面其實你回過頭來看這個27條第二項鎖定的辦法裡面是有很多條規定但是裡面會有涉及到這個限期改善的這個部分這個不多"},{"start":16697.913,"end":16712.126,"text":"然後呢而且這裡面也是跟這個業者有關的部分才能夠通知限期改善因為他後面有一個限期改善的前提在那個地方啦所以我們是認為說這個東西基本上應該不會有問題啦好"},{"start":16713.867,"end":16738.992,"text":"這個部分應該是沒有什麼問題因為為什麼交通部主管機關授權他們去開滑是由他們交通部去認定所以他認定的地方不可能去其他的單位有違反這些因為這個充電器可能跟經濟部或什麼比較有關但是因為他們主管的地方他們不會無限擴張的去沒有標準沒有對象的去開滑"},{"start":16740.012,"end":16759.625,"text":"所以這個部分應該是依照林局長他的說明應該是沒有問題的好 那我們38條還是一樣那我們停車場法3條都已經通過那接下來又來回來72條你們有公路法72條你們好 互代結議怎麼樣再簽了好"},{"start":16774.207,"end":16775.468,"text":"那個負債節你們有沒有看來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":16796.235,"end":16797.016,"text":"路華不是他們簽 路華不簽了嗎"},{"start":16822.728,"end":16846.175,"text":"好來這個附帶結議就請我們議事人員來宣讀一下那個交通部可以嗎那我還是要拜託一下我還是要拜託一下以後各單位以後各單位修法如此重要所以你們要盡快提出來"},{"start":16847.816,"end":16860.469,"text":"委員要幫你們根本都沒有那還好是這個這個邱若驊委員還有柳軒翔委員他是一個非常非常好的委員不然他讓你們叫人簽就簽 為什麼要簽你們應該做的早不做晚不做好來 先讀"},{"start":16869.847,"end":16887.038,"text":"附帶決議五 針對公路法附帶決議各管線單位均有依市區道路使用費收費標準繳納費用作為各道路主管機關作業管道路管理與維護資金費原建議與管線機構"},{"start":16892.802,"end":16901.27,"text":"修復回填與臨接路面棋瓶之保固棋線內由管線單位負責保固棋線後由依線型制度辦理宣讀完畢好來我們公路華的72條"},{"start":16919.043,"end":16946.116,"text":"來局長你們再再度再確定一下我們先讀完了要不要改我聽起來是不太通順你認為可以嗎不然我先不下去就不能改喔我們省條例是非常嚴謹的一個字要改都要先提出來你看一下看一下哪邊要改要講清楚"},{"start":16956.426,"end":16956.566,"text":"可以嗎"},{"start":16979.691,"end":16995.679,"text":"還有另外一個我要特別提醒我們提案委員省自己提案委員都不來有時候會製造很多困難真的要拜託各位委員提案應該要到場來說明到場來處理"},{"start":17007.351,"end":17033.223,"text":"就是那個附帶決議的部分就是說各管線單位現行均有依市區道路使用收費標準繳納費用作為各道路主管機關對業管道路管理與維護之經費原建議與管線機構修復回填與連接路面起品之保固期限內由管線單位負責"},{"start":17036.225,"end":17041.548,"text":"保固期限後則依現行制度持續辦理好來"},{"start":17047.199,"end":17068.077,"text":"好 這裡有急步修改啦也就是管線單位就是加一個線型對不對那另外一個保固期間則依線型制度持續辦理以上是剛剛"},{"start":17069.358,"end":17094.451,"text":"我們議事人員所朗誦的有增加這幾個字增加這幾個字好各位委員對於附帶結議有沒有意見好沒有意見我們公路滑72條依照林進縣委員提案然後修附帶結議通過大家有沒有意見好沒有意見我們72條就怎麼樣"},{"start":17098.735,"end":17112.046,"text":"沒有 好 72條就依照林淨炫提案的通過並還有附帶結議通過 來好好 簡單的文字 哪邊簡單的文字好好"},{"start":17113.089,"end":17132.408,"text":"剛剛有提到65條那個第三責任險的部分那我們已經跟金對就是說明欄說明欄對對對剛請我們跟金管會溝通對對是說明欄的部分好各位委員這個部分我們只是建議先把財務的部分先劃掉只要留損害好"},{"start":17136.17,"end":17154.194,"text":"剛剛這個公路滑第65條修正的這個部分它說明欄這裡有刪減特別跟大會來做報告也就是第三人財務的部分把財務劃掉"},{"start":17157.475,"end":17173.501,"text":"那另外就是在中間運輸業者對於第三人這裡有財務也把他拿掉財務也把他拿掉那另外在第二點的部分最後倒數第四行"},{"start":17174.361,"end":17188.983,"text":"包含財務工作損失及精神賠償這幾個字把它拿掉也就是說明欄這個部分所以特別做更正說明各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":17190.373,"end":17203.283,"text":"好沒有意見的話我們以上就做各項更正以及我們下午所審的公路滑以及停車場滑我們逐條審查完畢好那稍等一下我來做結議的宣示"},{"start":17241.061,"end":17256.13,"text":"好我們協商完成做以下的宣告本日協商結論免予先讀授權議事人員整理作為結議"},{"start":17259.243,"end":17277.177,"text":"針對本次會議做以下決議一 道路交通管理處罰條例公路罰及停車場罰等修正草案各罰案經分別並案審查完略"},{"start":17277.958,"end":17293.474,"text":"分別擬據審查報告 提報宴會討論宴會討論前 均不需交由黨團協商宴會討論時 經由您召集人國層補充說明"},{"start":17296.317,"end":17321.733,"text":"第二 請交通部就審查結果如有補充立法說明請尽速送交通委員會以便列入列語審查報告一併呈送立法院院會第三 條次引述條文部分文字以及"},{"start":17322.834,"end":17341.621,"text":"眼影調次授權主席及議事人員整理本次會議結束謝謝各位官員謝謝各位委員謝謝各位媒體朋友大家辛苦了謝謝大家上會"},{"start":17351.947,"end":17369.982,"text":"來稍等一下怎麼樣怎麼樣他們有修正過了已經修正過來這樣好不好好"},{"start":17381.058,"end":17399.094,"text":"各位委員各位委員因為現在因為邱若驊委員有提出這些說明欄的文字調整那本席剛才已經有報告了也就是對於文字或者調整"},{"start":17399.794,"end":17418.227,"text":"授權主席跟議事人員來做調整如果這裡的文字跟原來先讀的文字只是單字或少部分的這個部分由主席跟議事人員來做適當的調整這樣可以不可以"},{"start":17421.145,"end":17443.582,"text":"說明欄說明欄比較ok說明欄只要主席跟議事人員這裡check沒有脫離這些說明的宗旨那是可以改那是可以改好不好有沒有改改很多幾個字而已是吧好幾個字本席來來來先主管機關看一下來說明欄"},{"start":17450.9,"end":17466.05,"text":"說明欄那幾個文字那個如果按照處罰條例或是公路法後續會請因為是都交通部的法令我們交通部有徵修證要補充那個說明欄的部分我想我們就把它納在我們的說明欄裡頭把它寫進去就好了"},{"start":17468.086,"end":17480.52,"text":"好 這個部分我剛才做我們會議結議的時候第二條已經講得很清楚請交通部就審查結果如有補充立法說明"},{"start":17482.389,"end":17507.887,"text":"請盡速送交交通委員會以便列入審查報告一併呈送立法院院會所以我剛才裁定的第二條就包括這個在內所以請請你那邊修改以後就直接交給交通部交通部轉到我們這裡來我們就會把這個列進去我剛才做裁定第二條就已經說明的很清楚了好不好"},{"start":17508.567,"end":17511.308,"text":"好那我們還是在這上會謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":17529.315,"end":17529.455,"text":"主席"},{"start":17548.302,"end":17578.302,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":17578.383,"end":17578.464,"text":"谢谢"}]}},{"id":"16878","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16878","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbc83a07a3e0006e9d1db55c1e05b5a14c112bf0b47f4e58e3a3a17c44575eb1405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「協助中小企業災後復原辦理情況」進行報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-20T08:33:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-20T12:17:00+08:00","duration":13424,"影片長度":"03:43:44","委員發言時間":"08:33:16 - 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Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":944.421,"end":945.213,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1431.451,"end":1431.814,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1634.841,"end":1646.049,"text":"好請報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員12人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1647.765,"end":1673.164,"text":"立法院第11屆第三會期經濟委員會第19次圈契委員會議事錄 時間114年8月7日星期四9時至12時51分 地點紅樓101會議室出席委員楊瀟英等14人 列席委員賴氏寶準10人 列席人員國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜卿等 主席謝昭吉委員依奉 包事項依先讀上次會議事錄決定確定 而邀請國家發展委員會主任委員就美國對等關稅抵定後"},{"start":1673.584,"end":1701.536,"text":"我國經濟未來之景氣情況及產業全球佈局新規劃進行報告並備諮詢國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜清報告後委員楊瓊英等18人提出諮詢經由國家發展委員會主任委員劉靜清等及其答覆決定一登記發展委員除不在場者外區域均已發言完畢詢答結束二委員林黛樺張家俊及張啟凱所提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面諮詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1704.585,"end":1733.807,"text":"好 現在進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部部長就協助中小企業災後復原辦理情況進行報告並被質詢宣讀完畢請經濟部郭之輝部長報告主席各位委員大家早"},{"start":1734.844,"end":1754.58,"text":"今天承蒙贵委员会的邀请就协助中小企业灾后复原办理情形进行专案报告进行购物委员不吝示教但那是台风于七月上旬侵袭台湾随后728豪雨更造成中南部地区多处灾损"},{"start":1755.541,"end":1776.666,"text":"房屋損毁超过4万户 电线杆倒塌3500只以上电信 通讯 道路等设施中断 许多民众生活陷入困境地方产业营业也遭受冲击行政院与经济部团队于风灾第一时间即投入现场"},{"start":1777.446,"end":1805.315,"text":"日夜搶修受損設施逐步恢復電力與自來水的供應並迅速展開恢復水電供應及清理設施環境等工作7月30日行政院也成立雲嘉南災後復原前進指揮所進一步展開重建復原工作行政院於最短時間內推動災後復原重建特別條例並編列600億元預算其中經濟部"},{"start":1807.308,"end":1826.164,"text":"編列了187.4億元聚焦於強化電網與水利設施的韌性推動治理工程同時提供受災企業與店家援助以及汰換設備補助等多元的援助當然是颱風"},{"start":1827.881,"end":1846.274,"text":"及728豪雨重創雲江南地區經濟部在第一時間啟動緊急應變措施協助受災民眾修復房屋台水台電以全力進入搶修協助恢復供電供水等基本生活需求"},{"start":1847.318,"end":1863.19,"text":"我們推動電費與水費減免措施只要停電超過一個小時停水超過24小時台電和台水都會依比例自動扣減費用民眾不用申請同時也結合產業資源送暖請據業者"},{"start":1865.734,"end":1886.441,"text":"捐贈超過五千件群聚家電業者提供冰箱、洗衣機、冷氣等九百多台並協助太舊換新與維修希望能受災戶家庭在最艱困的時候能有最基本的生活安定"},{"start":1887.843,"end":1911.113,"text":"經濟補儀災後第一時間即啟動馬上辦理中心單一窗口受理受災業者來電諮詢針對融資協助利息補貼以及稅務減免等需求提供立即的協助必要時亦開立受災證明並轉介至相關金融機構"},{"start":1912.574,"end":1938.232,"text":"截至8月18日已提供了321通电话的咨询服务并开立63件企业受灾证明令经济部、产业灾后复建服务团整合马上办服务中心、园管局、产业竞争力中心及联府基金会深入产业园区与企业聚落"},{"start":1939.053,"end":1955.346,"text":"共仿似103家受灾厂商提供厂房修缮积水排除废弃物清运等融资税务协助等快速到会简化程序的一站式服务"},{"start":1956.914,"end":1981.142,"text":"此外,经济部亦参加立法委员及行政院于灾区召开的多场座谈会,并多次访视受灾企业请听业者复原重建的需求,将相关建议纳入后续协处措施,特别是受灾企业对复工的贷款。"},{"start":1982.611,"end":2002.643,"text":"自8月11日起,经济部更加强以行动服务团巡回灾区,每日上午于台南市的嘉里区公所提供咨询服务,下午则巡回七谷、安南等,一直到六甲及夏营等十几个行政区,把服务送到第一线。"},{"start":2003.82,"end":2019.596,"text":"在紡釋的過程中有受災餐飲店家因冷藏設備進水報廢擔心無法營運而影響生計也有小型業者反映屋頂受損至室內機具故障行動服務團隨即協助"},{"start":2021.838,"end":2049.778,"text":"其申请相关补助及机具太旧换新方案使厂商在最短的时间内恢复营业行动服务团将持续扩大巡回服务范围使更多的受灾企业就近获得协助对受灾店家援助的方案我们针对招牌、电卷门、铁卷门、摊台等生财器具的毁损"},{"start":2050.68,"end":2069.606,"text":"每家提供一万元现金援助对象为灾区具税级登记商家及传统市场业势摊商台南市政府自8月11日起已受理267件嘉义市 嘉义县及高雄市亦陆续公告受理"},{"start":2071.072,"end":2096.118,"text":"在受灾店家设备汰换补助方案补助受灾店家购置节能设备比例为购置金额的50%每家最高5万元项目包括一般能效空调冰箱节能标章照明及冷冻柜等对象为灾期据税级登记的商家及传统市场夜市的摊商"},{"start":2097.881,"end":2107.877,"text":"采线上申请将尽数公告受理对于制造业生产设备及场域设施的复原补治专案"},{"start":2108.82,"end":2120.773,"text":"我們針對機器設備修復、調校以及生產場域的設施修繕每家企業最高補助20萬元補助的範圍從寬認定包括機器設備、鐵捲門、屋頂、貨梯等皆可納入補助目前已經受理398件"},{"start":2131.923,"end":2157.599,"text":"对补助节能及动力设备方面针对企业用电100kW以上的企业导入ESCO技术每案最高补助500万元集团最高补助1500万元另对部分受灾制造业者复工过程中购置高效率的空压机、风机以及高效率马达等设备"},{"start":2158.419,"end":2175.24,"text":"每kW补助700至5000元每家最高500万元大型企业可达1500万元截至8月15日共有105家申请补助的金额接近2000万元"},{"start":2176.513,"end":2195.153,"text":"关于灾害复工贷款及利息的补贴方面业者申请中小企业灾害复旧贷款以及企业小投家贷款100万元内保证10成逾100万元保证9.5成利率本来是2.22%"},{"start":2197.555,"end":2223.011,"text":"可以申请利息补贴政府补贴1.72%企业仅需支付0.5%补贴1到3年每家最高可以补贴50万原有的贷款可以展延者政府补贴利息1.685%补贴1至3年每家最高40万元以上受理期限为114年7月5日至115年1月4日"},{"start":2226.345,"end":2252.835,"text":"但是經濟部正加速研擬災後復工貸款補貼全額利息補貼的期間一年每戶最高50萬元以減輕受災中小企業復工的資金壓力災後一個月來經濟部全力投入復原工作透過定點及巡迴服務的多元補助方案"},{"start":2253.955,"end":2268.845,"text":"協助受災企業將持續與縣市政府密切合作傾聽災區需求確保企業盡速回復營運進一步秉持雨天擴大撐傘的精神採取重寬 重塑 重減"},{"start":2270.086,"end":2285.362,"text":"协调金融机构加速贷款审核缩短核贷与送保时程协助业者快速复原以上报告敬请各位委员指正视教并祝各位委员身体健康出事顺利"},{"start":2289.932,"end":2308.946,"text":"谢谢现在进行询答委员咨询前原例作以下宣告每位委员发言时间本会委员六分钟必要时得延长两分钟非本会委员五分钟上午十点三十分截止发言登记首先我们先请邱毅英委员做询答"},{"start":2319.305,"end":2330.159,"text":"謝謝主席我請一下部長郭部長委員長"},{"start":2331.065,"end":2356.887,"text":"部長早部長我想經歷過丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨對您來講應該也是心情像喜三溫暖這應該是您有史以來第一次有這樣的機會實際進入到災區實際去勘災了解到天災對於整體環境所受到的影響您個人有什麼看法"},{"start":2357.688,"end":2386.743,"text":"就你剛剛的報告其實就是很數據上面政府現在應該要補助多少補助多少但是我想您在經濟部的這個位置上面其實看到這樣的一個風災災後政府有很多的重建工作要做其實不是只是現在的這些paperwork您覺得就現行的台灣的整體在面對到這樣子的一個巨大的天災"},{"start":2387.881,"end":2416.173,"text":"的時候你覺得經濟部有什麼可以再多做一些的或者是說我們現在的整體的建設上有什麼不足的是 報告員我想聽一下你的看法我想人逆己逆我多次到災區去這個跟著總統或者院長我們多次去這個跟著他們去訪視這整個災區我大概應該有這一個多月以來應該有15次以上到災區去訪視"},{"start":2418.004,"end":2445.623,"text":"我们看了这一次的这个灾情确实是非常非常的严重所以我一直请我们经济部的同仁在我们的责任范围里面要用最快的速度然后去帮忙把这个灾区能够复建起来比如说我们现在前进办公室成立以后经济部对于这个复建的部分"},{"start":2446.792,"end":2467.91,"text":"我們的這個水利署跟台水公司我們負責的責任區我們都是最快的速度大家都用同理心來協助處理我們面對的這個問題好 部長來先讓您講到這裡你講到災後復健的部分那我就先來跟您討論一下災後復健的部分"},{"start":2468.98,"end":2495.292,"text":"當然今天主席排定的議程是討論中小企業不過因為在這一次的丹納斯風災跟728的豪雨其實在高雄的地區受災最嚴重是在山區這些就是我們您所謂的災後復建這是路斷掉了 橋斷掉了那經濟部水利署或者是說公路總局花了非常多的時間而且非常快速的"},{"start":2496.631,"end":2516.634,"text":"幾天幾夜都沒有睡覺在搶救這些道路但是相對來講其實你也可以看到這是很脆弱的一環那講到補償 你講中小企業的補償我就是要跟您討論山區這一次受災嚴重但是山區沒有中小企業"},{"start":2518.004,"end":2537.162,"text":"山區的觀光受到了非常大的影響山區的比如說我們的這些小吃部啦這些零售業者啦這個農產加工品等等他們其實都受到了相當大的影響但是目前這樣看起來並不符合在我們所謂的中小企業的這一些補助裡頭"},{"start":2538.581,"end":2567.259,"text":"那这些要怎么办你们未来在经济部跟跨部会比如说跟这个观光署或者是跟其他的单位有没有这样的跨部会的灾后的这些补救的措施或者是说要等到我们的这个特别预算通过之后才能来做这一方面我们院长有指示就是说不用等到这个特别预算过后才来处理这个救灾的事情"},{"start":2568.427,"end":2581.357,"text":"我們會用我們現在有的這個預算範圍裡面趕快先去做因為救災最重要所以在您剛所提的這個地區我們是有這個服務業的協助措施的"},{"start":2582.062,"end":2611.922,"text":"它是属于服务业的一部分我们大概分成服务业服务业你协助它什么哪一方面比如说它是店家它是店家我们就是援助它每一家我们会先给它一万块钱然后协助它做铁卷门招牌摊台展示架你只要是在受灾地区的全部都可以吗它没有税级登记没有什么登记的你只要是在灾后地区的全部都可以摊饭我们会把它列为摊饭"},{"start":2613.403,"end":2631.172,"text":"好那有这些有开始做了吗现在是开始做已经开始在盘点了是不是应该是在盘点而已吧应该我还没有听到有任何已经开始是我们是盘点透过当地的管理机构先盘点但是我们现在把比较严重的地方处理"},{"start":2631.972,"end":2660.008,"text":"接著我們就 我知道部長當然你要先去處理很多的中小企業因為很多的我們的這個台灣的中小企業佔了八成嘛那就業人口其實非常多也是在這些中小企業裡頭包括嘉義 台南其實很多的中小企業受損當然你們要去做這些事情那我現在要跟您談的是在高雄的這些山區的相對剝奪感是比較大的那他們除了道路受損以外其實電力的中斷電力的脆弱"},{"start":2660.928,"end":2676.709,"text":"这个我想这个也是您应该要非常重视是 报告委员在未来我们会结合这个电力的部分我们会优先因为这个山区负电比较慢对所以我们会先把发电机送过去"},{"start":2678.123,"end":2696.021,"text":"所以未來就是只要有風災就是設置發電機馬上就到這個發電機就會前置作業先到發電機或者是儲能櫃等等我們都會先去做這個其實在去年山陀兒的時候曾文森董事長在這邊也特別也提過我也同樣質詢過這個問題也同樣提過這件事情"},{"start":2699.384,"end":2721.793,"text":"但是很顯然的這一次應該也沒有因應到也沒有去想到說這個風災會這麼嚴重這個水災會這麼嚴重但是我比較想要再談的就是說我們所謂的電網韌性計畫我覺得台灣的整體電網其實是相對脆弱一個颱風來去年這個是在高雄"},{"start":2723.984,"end":2744.429,"text":"電線桿倒一排今年是在嘉義跟台南整個電線桿倒一排超過一個禮拜以上的停電所有的台電工程人員不眠不休的搶救甚至還造成人命的傷亡但是這個電網電纜地下化的這個政策我們從三年前開始就說要花5645億去做電網韌性計畫"},{"start":2748.59,"end":2763.084,"text":"那到底開始做了沒做了哪些那你們要優先去盤點你們現在說要去盤點一些優先的地區這些優先的地區包括哪些地方是要做優先的地區有沒有去做這一方面的盤點"},{"start":2764.195,"end":2793.522,"text":"现在开始在做这方面现在才开始要做现在具体的因为当初您刚才所指导的这个5000多亿的这个是全国的是全国的他分10年做嘛这过去提出来的5000多亿没有分10年你们这不是分10年的计划吗我们现在要缩短现在要缩短我们没有办法等到10年是所以我们现在把它缩短到这个总统的指示到2028年2028年所以3年内要完成对"},{"start":2794.355,"end":2822.015,"text":"三年內要完成台電有這樣的量能或者是說台電有足夠的足夠的經費可以來做這件事情嗎就我們大家來努力柏定我現在是這樣說我當然希望你們能夠努力啦但能不能給我一個比較確切比如說你們現在盤點出來哪些地方會是優先這會說一步報告委員我們可以把這個盤點表跟時程表送給您好"},{"start":2822.677,"end":2829.965,"text":"那預算呢台電還有錢嗎5645億你如果分成三年的話一年要將近1500 1600億"},{"start":2834.149,"end":2857.488,"text":"台電有錢嗎要編列啦要來編列這個預算不是編列而已啦保電池你現在不只是編列而已不是你編列這個預算你台電就沒錢了你反而也沒要撥補一千億給你你台電怎麼有錢可以繼續做這個我們現在先把這個所謂太陽能光電太陽能光電的地區然後先支援附近的這個鄉鎮這個是我們一個新的智慧電網"},{"start":2863.533,"end":2884.908,"text":"因为台电太阳能光电的这个跟我讲的电缆地下化是有相关的吗跟电缆地下化没有相关对啊我现在是跟你讲电缆地下化的但是我们是要让大家有电可以用所以我们就是光电第二天太阳出来以后它就能够产生电所以我们就会把它接到那个变电所然后来供给他们的用电这样子"},{"start":2885.745,"end":2911.121,"text":"部長我覺得台電其實應該要整體再去做更快速的這些盤點到底你的哪一些區域是優先的是工業區要優先呢還是臨海的這些比較容易受到損害的要做優先呢有一個很重要的例子當初蘇貞昌院長在做平和公路的電纜地下化的時候被罵到臭頭"},{"start":2912.401,"end":2935.883,"text":"被罵到臭頭但是現在你看經歷了過去年跟今年平和公路一帶沒有任何停電所以被罵不是壞事你們要能夠耐得住撐得住這個壓力做對的事情堅持做對的事情要能夠撐得住這個壓力那當然我們要給台電最多最多的"},{"start":2936.914,"end":2966.064,"text":"支持跟協助啊沒電的時候大家都會一直說台電怎麼那麼快來可是真的台電需要經費的時候大家又不肯給啊又說什麼台電很有錢啊台電不需要這個經費啦我覺得這個是沒道理的所以部長我期待就是說台電當然要加緊腳步去做電纜地下化的整體這些電網韌性的政策要趕快加緊腳步去做那對於預算的爭取其實台電也要據理力爭"},{"start":2966.991,"end":2974.478,"text":"好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝那我們現在請鄭正前委員做詢答那在鄭委員詢答前我們先確定那個議事錄那請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤沒有喔那我們就議事錄確定"},{"start":2995.398,"end":3022.626,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下郭部長郭部長委員長部長好今天主席安排了一個災後復原的一個狀態那我今天特別來針對一個台灣一個產業它也碰到一個大災難就是我們看一下就是汽車產業今年上半年六大車廠的情況慘不忍睹"},{"start":3024.787,"end":3044.386,"text":"就是包括裕隆 中華車 三洋 合泰車 裕日車還有範德永業他們整個上半年的一個狀態都嚴重的虧損六大車廠全部都一面倒那我在想說這一面倒當中的時候我們看到中華車跟裕日車"},{"start":3045.326,"end":3071.406,"text":"就是衰退超過三成這真的是一個產業上的一個大災難我想請問一下部長對於這樣的一個狀態的時候那經濟部是不是有掌握產業下滑的原因跟影響是在什麼地方可不可以請部長簡單回答我可不可以請我們署長他這方面比較了解 可以謝謝報告委員那因為這一次的這個關稅的談判"},{"start":3073.789,"end":3081.776,"text":"導致的一些消費者他們的觀望他們是期待說是不是有進一步的可能的關稅降低然後再"},{"start":3083.138,"end":3110.367,"text":"這個等於是買氣下降所以你覺得是關稅的問題是大環境的問題對不對所以在這狀態當中的時候我們看到這整個狀態然後我要特別先看下一頁而且這個狀態的時候其實是整個1到7月全部都大幅的衰退而且不分進口車不分國產車全部都衰退我們回到上一頁在這樣的一個情況之下的時候我要特別幫就是"},{"start":3111.847,"end":3130.118,"text":"國內的國產車的產業特別請命他們在碰到這樣一個大海嘯過程當中的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼具體的一個方式有沒有一個具體的一個政策或者一個方案針對一個國產車的一個部分給他們適當的一個協助跟扶持"},{"start":3131.398,"end":3151.079,"text":"回報委員那因為我們上次談到的這個產業支持方案最先的意思是說希望能夠針對於消美的這樣子的一個影響來做產業支持那現在我們可以把這個產業支持方案把它擴大解釋成為說假設我們將來談判完了以後有擴大市場"},{"start":3153.258,"end":3162.613,"text":"對內銷的部分如果造成衝擊我們也可以適用產業支持方案所以在這種情況之下的話我們也希望能夠爭取將汽車產業列入產業支持方案受衝擊的這個產業的這樣的一個協助的範疇"},{"start":3166.617,"end":3178.49,"text":"OK產業支持方案的部分因為坦白說關稅的問題的時候之前全部的重點都是放在出口的產業那這可以理解因為是美國掀起這一次對等關稅的一個戰爭可是對於整個國內的產業來說的時候汽車產業是一個馬上就是被"},{"start":3186.196,"end":3213.889,"text":"槍打到 馬上被槍打到 馬上躺平那麼在這樣的一個情況之下的時候就是不只是進口車受影響國內的製造的汽車 國產車也受到大量的一個影響那國產車的重要性因為它牽涉到了30多萬人到50萬人家庭當中的一個影響這個部分而且它的產業鏈是很複雜很多的台灣有很多的汽車零配件的廠商也是國際級的"},{"start":3215.49,"end":3233.23,"text":"所以不管是車前的部分或者是車後市場的部分的時候都非常的重要所以針對這個國產車的這個部分的時候呢本期希望經濟部這邊除了產發組這邊的時候我們希望有更具體的一個部分給他們更大的一個幫助因為當我們看到整個"},{"start":3234.551,"end":3252.563,"text":"六大車廠全部都一面倒的時候我們就知道問題非常非常的嚴重它勢必會影響到整個台灣現有的一個汽車產業那也包括所有的汽車零組件的部分所以在這邊可不可以請署長或部長跟署長這邊針對這個部分可不可以有進一步的一個說明"},{"start":3254.331,"end":3282.694,"text":"報告委員 我們從這個4月份開始就不斷地跟業者在討論希望說面臨到這個關稅這樣的一個進口的這種衝擊那麼國內的這些車廠應該如何來因應那我們都有討論 不斷地在討論不斷地在溝通我們希望能夠找到一條適合他們在台灣發展的這樣的一個方向"},{"start":3283.695,"end":3307.216,"text":"那因為這個是沒有 還沒有一個確定每一家廠商 因為他們很多都是外系日系的 韓系的對 目前所謂的國產車器全部都是外國的品牌他們在台灣這邊做組裝即使做組裝這個部分對整個台灣的一個汽車產業還是有一些貢獻不管在就業的部分"},{"start":3308.316,"end":3336.041,"text":"或者是說在一些相關技術的一個升級上面來說都還是很重要的所以本席希望說我們經濟部在考量整個汽車產業當中的時候對於國產車的部分跟進口車的部分雖然目前前七個月所有的汽車產業全部都倒可是對於國產車的部分的時候我們希望經濟部這邊基於整個產業扶持的狀態的時候能夠有更具體的方案提出來是 報告委員我們現在盡量來跟他們討論"},{"start":3337.881,"end":3361.539,"text":"希望他们能够发展台湾的优势产业在车辆上面选择这个车的这个车的这个怎么讲比如说电动车这样的这一款是不是在台湾制造对他们来讲是比较有利的他因为是国际品牌所以他虽然没有发展电动车是他的主力"},{"start":3362.66,"end":3387.688,"text":"那他可能都是以油電車為主力但是我們建議他是不是可以把全世界他需要生產電動車可以在台灣來生產市部長這樣子的一個產業穩定方案或者說你這邊提到一個建議產業發展方向大概什麼時候可以提出來我們都一直在討論我們都一直在討論但是我想可不可以盡快給我一個時間因為我想說他們這樣導成一片的時候他們需要有一些"},{"start":3389.888,"end":3417.302,"text":"我們的方法我們一直要尊重這個企業產業我們是協助它但是我們不能夠我們對這些產業我們關心的程度跟委員是一樣的理解部長 我再想說針對這個部分因為國產車的這個部分因為它牽涉到太多家庭了30萬到50萬的一個家庭都受到國產汽車這樣子的影響所以我們希望經濟部這邊能夠扮演更好的一個角色好不好"},{"start":3417.602,"end":3435.639,"text":"是然後對於整個國產車的一個扶持的部分一定要有更具體的一個操作的方式那之後請部長這邊也隨時給本席一些相關的一些經濟部這邊新的一個方向跟政策有什麼樣進度就隨時跟本辦公室這邊做一個回報好不好好的"},{"start":3436.633,"end":3459.907,"text":"好 那麼接下來因為8月23號的時候有一個公投案就是河山研議的公投啦那我在想說想先請教一下部長這邊就是說如果那個公投通過了之後假設說這次通過像之前一樣就是2018年以核養綠公投一樣通過了之後的時候我們經濟部作為能源主管機關的時候可不可以承諾會繼續往下走"},{"start":3462.438,"end":3474.187,"text":"報告委員我想這個核酸研疫公投的部分因為我們基本上的態度 安全安全是不能夠用公投來決定的我想對我們來講這個"},{"start":3477.213,"end":3494.795,"text":"核電我想總統有指示的非常的清楚兩個必須三個原則我們經濟部就是follow兩個必須三個原則這樣的一個方向理解喔 因為我在想說目前都是用這樣的方向在走因為我想說公投畢竟是一個很重要的一個"},{"start":3496.076,"end":3523.945,"text":"社會共識的一個狀態那我這邊我想請教安全絕對不能用當然理解這個部分我們完全理解這個狀態可是目前全球對於整個核電研議的部分其實各個地方都在做我相信美國這方面的技術應該比我們更好然後部長跟美國關係也很好我再相信對於這樣的一個核能安全的部分我沒辦法掌握到最新的一個狀態我這邊想特別另外問一個狀態是因為有一個核三廠的一個"},{"start":3524.825,"end":3544.54,"text":"管理階層的一個經理他之前有特別提到說我們在前幾年曾經做過一個河山研議的一個評估然後確實也都覺得說河山要研議20年在安全上是沒有問題的那當時是因為政策的部分所以沒有提出來請問部長知不知道這件事情是不是確定有這樣的一件事"},{"start":3546.614,"end":3570.48,"text":"對傳聞我們想我個人是對傳聞沒有具體的這個文件對傳聞是不予置評這個其實不是傳聞所以說我想說請部長這邊特別去了解一下因為他講得非常非常的具體報告委員我想那我是不是請台電來跟您報告一下可以報告委員那個"},{"start":3571.772,"end":3591.932,"text":"因為核電廠當時在評估內部在評估的時候其實是都還在發電的階段所以跟現在整個已經廚藝下來之後要再去做評估其實就第二個必須裡面我們必須還要再重做一次那結果怎麼樣才能夠才知道所以說之前確實有一個這樣子在還沒有"},{"start":3592.577,"end":3613.02,"text":"就是停止運轉之前確實有一個這樣的研議的一個評估嗎只是內部初步的評估而已不是說那個非常正式的OK 理解所以有一個內部初步的評估然後確定覺得當時初步評估覺得20年是可以的那現在因為已經年度跟那個其實不是委員講的啦那個只是說當時有一個初步的評估而已"},{"start":3613.3,"end":3642.023,"text":"OK 那我想因為公投事實上就是一個整個社會民意的一個展現那我希望說行政部門對於整個公投的一個結果能夠給予最大一個尊重主委院長是說他尊重這個公投的結果那我們也希望就是經濟部這邊對於整個公投結果能夠給予最大一個尊重因為其實坦白說目前很多坊間都擔心就是公投過了之後也許就像2018年以和洋綠公投過了一樣"},{"start":3642.423,"end":3659.863,"text":"那政府一樣不去運作那公投會變得沒有意義那我們希望就是每一次的公投都是非常的有意義有價值的好不好 部長是 報告委員我想經濟部是執行單位啦那經濟部立場就是依法行政是依法行政所以這個"},{"start":3661.405,"end":3677.637,"text":"政策如果只是重啟那麼台電公司就會針對這個核電廠進行安全總體檢結構設備組件的這個受其管理設備太舊換新然後補正補強的評估那提出重啟計畫送國際"},{"start":3679.819,"end":3702.973,"text":"同儕 審視那麼以及監管單位和安會的審查那麼一審查意見來改善通過理解那麼我們希望整個行政部門對整個公投的結果能夠給予最高度的一個尊重跟落實去執行以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝我們接著請林黛化委員做詢答"},{"start":3718.482,"end":3737.251,"text":"有請部長郭部長委員好來 部長您風災過後您到我高雄的重災區山區南馬俠桃園茂林走過"},{"start":3739.142,"end":3764.533,"text":"到目前还没有还没有但您跟我你没有到我高雄的重灾区那您到高雄这边可能问过全国老百姓大概印象最深刻的就是您跟我们中小企业组的座谈发生了邀请我们中小企业组投资这个美国4000亿的举例移民之后呢经济部呢花了两天的时间说明"},{"start":3765.353,"end":3792.05,"text":"那我為什麼提到重災區呢我本席非常的不滿我看到您通篇的報告您說您去了嘉義去了台南這還是你們的訪視團訪問團喔有到台北有到嘉義市這個台南嘉義就沒有到我高雄的重災區您知道高雄的重災區呀這三區發生了什麼事情呢來這個新聞"},{"start":3795.289,"end":3814.231,"text":"颱風過後喝山泉水喝到沒命高雄風災山人懶類比取往這個類比取死亡率45%到75%所以說呢也就是說你對於山區重災區之後道路中斷水跟電完全沒有斷水斷電"},{"start":3816.354,"end":3841.616,"text":"電你們從以前到現在都有講到電韌性花了將近4000到5000多億來做電網韌性所以到山區大概台電也都知道我趕快要布建這個微電網都已經有這個政策的預算而這將近5000億的電韌性是誰給的不是你不本不給的是行政院重視行政院給的錢那水韌性呢"},{"start":3843.154,"end":3857.79,"text":"部長 這個我完全沒有看到經濟部部本部你水電的任性你是主責機關耶是經濟部對於水電任性你是規劃但你們沒有"},{"start":3858.611,"end":3885.674,"text":"這不是台水跟台電的工作而且包括這個台水本身它最主要的工作是什麼它只做漏 它只做防漏然後呢 這個汰換水管那汰換水管的錢到現在它都得借錢你們喔 這了不起啦齁在王美花部長這邊啊 捐取了八十億啊分四年給 一年二十億都不夠二十億放在我高雄都不夠啊"},{"start":3886.946,"end":3911.164,"text":"所以在這個水韌性當中 你看我們福倫社都還會趕快的去捐這個災區 仿山鄉屏東兩部進水器 一部進水器重達2到3公斤 輕輕的而且也不用電 大概花台幣10萬塊他送兩部 一部可以過濾20萬公升的飲用水"},{"start":3913.464,"end":3942.786,"text":"我的水公司包括經濟部 部本部你們完全沒想到喔是不是趕快用一個淨水器讓大家在這個趕快的只要任何的水下去就過濾了 也沒有裡面最基礎的淨水錠也沒有這個過膜酸鉀錠至少也給災區 通通沒有所以部長你怎麼看這件事情報告委員 您所指摘的部分"},{"start":3943.388,"end":3959.037,"text":"是我們水利署要跟地方政府共同去處理的事情不是只有自來水公司我們自來水公司自來水公司那水公司有所謂這個水韌性的這件事情在規劃嗎"},{"start":3960.485,"end":3987.216,"text":"那我是不是請自來水公司跟你報告一下你讓水公司來回答我我政府的水韌性部長你有沒有搞錯啊一個電網的韌性都要5400億行政院院長當做當做這個政績在宣傳5400億的電網韌性你現在說一個水韌性所以要謙虛一點沒錯就沒想到就說沒想到這樣的違規你要重視"},{"start":3988.476,"end":4016.972,"text":"部長你不認為水韌性這件事情你應該要一定要這是新的東西 就算你沒有 你說好你感到抱歉那我覺得這個確實是這風災當中讓我們忽略了這樣的一個議題所以你要報部本部你讓一個水公司 水公司都不夠給我站在這邊 給我講水韌性水公司是誰來 你敢講水韌性的東西喔 那我就要問你囉來 來 水公司你要講嗎我不回答水公司 我最挺水公司了啦我覺得你們可憐啦"},{"start":4018.308,"end":4034.114,"text":"哪有到現在執行政府的最主要的預算太舊換新的這個水管竟然還在用借錢部長不重視行政院根本也不知道我們的苦楚講任性吧 誰任性"},{"start":4038.671,"end":4054.577,"text":"謝謝委員 委員對台水公司確實非常非常的協助也幫忙非常多那我想剛剛委員所指的部分這一次因為是一個颱風的部分我想我知道委員最主要是說當這些比較偏遠山區的部分的"},{"start":4055.217,"end":4067.703,"text":"大禹跟高所的部分也希望台水這邊也能盡量的趕快來看有沒有一些過濾的一些快濾的過濾桶也許可能我們做的還不夠那委員這樣的指證我們未來會有如果想辦法把那個移動的過濾桶趕快去來解決讓民眾當下能趕快解決至於這個供水的韌性的部分我想經濟部其實也積極在做做什麼來你說"},{"start":4079.008,"end":4097.49,"text":"我想我們當然就是一個開發水源跟一個水源的一個區域的調度的部分這個會來做那當然沒有錯大概總預算要多少那整個時候執行完電網韌性5400億的電網韌性5400億是有執行有執行業務也有清楚的執行期限的來您說看看"},{"start":4098.811,"end":4117.622,"text":"委員當然是高度非常夠 這個整個供水的韌性確實是一個涵蓋非常廣我真的覺得你真的很有擔當你要來回答本席水凍性的東西 部長你放在後面至少水利署要來講話 水利署沒有來也不講話 部長你不講話 部長"},{"start":4120.043,"end":4146.941,"text":"我真的覺得齁這個一個領導人齁從哪裡可以看出這個領導人的特質跟能力從危機當中看出一個領導人的危機跟能力如果本席點出的這種的韌性也是有平時的水韌性喔也有平時時期的水韌性你怎麼做你在危機時候的水韌性怎麼做城鄉之泉的分布來副總那個您下去吧"},{"start":4149.298,"end":4177.387,"text":"部長我再給你一個機會你認得水韌性要怎麼說 怎麼做呢有電網韌性 水韌性要怎麼說呢跟委員抱歉喔水的部分我不是專家所以我沒有辦法回應你的問題沒有辦法回應喔你要不要做什麼改進我們會 我回去會要求水利署一起來重視委員所指責的這個問題什麼時候提出這個水韌性的這樣的方案是什麼時候"},{"start":4179.261,"end":4206.019,"text":"我們一個禮拜好了一個禮拜喔好你不要只聽那個副總副總我真的覺得你很棒你真的很有承擔但是我覺得你的成績不夠成平時後該有怎麼樣的包括你們太舊換新的水管這件事情都應該趕快的列入這樣的韌性裡面甚至你的韌性你的電網韌性要不要解決你公司的債務讓你永續經營這都可以考慮喔"},{"start":4207.68,"end":4234.437,"text":"包括你們對於高廢水 高耗水的部分你什麼開源跟節流嘛 這都是不是要納入 積極的去導入包括災後的時候的這個水韌性當中這部分不應該講的 一個禮拜做得出來 我覺得很奇怪然後這個東西是你要跟行政院來做來跟你的主計處 跟行政院院長這邊是要做溝通的"},{"start":4235.869,"end":4257.072,"text":"部長我認為我再講一次危機的時候才可以看出一個領導人的一個特質跟能力是不是擔任是不是適合做決策者是不是適合來做我真認為您自己在這個內閣當中的角色其實你應該是要自己重新評估而不是變成"},{"start":4258.633,"end":4283.537,"text":"是希望你不要再拉垮左內閣的整個的民調也最重要的是對於我們災民讓災民有感是一個有溫度有靠山的政府好以上謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝等一下那個蕭副總那個一個禮拜是只有那個高雄還是全台灣的評估只有高雄是不是"},{"start":4287.779,"end":4311.248,"text":"我非常感謝主席延續我的議題 這樣的程序問題主席我是不是請你裁示 我覺得一個禮拜做不出來因為是包括整個全台灣的水韌性 比照台電韌性的問題所以請主席是不是 我認為我願意給他多一點時間至少三個禮拜到一個月 一個禮拜是不可能做出來連彰化等等 他是要做去做盤點"},{"start":4313.509,"end":4339.535,"text":"這個不是只有針對災區 也是整個做盤點林委員你要求的是全臺灣的水韌性的計畫而不是高雄的水韌性計畫那請經濟部回去再評估再提出相關全臺灣的水韌性的計畫那是不是我請主席是不是參考一下一個月內提出來全臺的水韌性的這個方案那郭部長是不是能夠一個月內全臺灣的"},{"start":4348.137,"end":4366.549,"text":"好那就一個月提出全臺灣的水韌性的相關計畫現在請陳婷菲委員做詢答陳婷菲委員謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":4377.022,"end":4393.804,"text":"委員好部長台南是重災區所以我待會問的問題是非常直接的也拜託部長要看怎麼處理因為我們已經問了很多輪了昨天我也跟卓院長"},{"start":4395.205,"end":4417.416,"text":"懇求拜托就是我们在所有石棉瓦的处理那当然石棉瓦的处理家户跟我们的畜牧场现在都有处理畜牧场是由农业部来做补助但是我们目前厂房的屋顶石棉瓦废弃物的清理"},{"start":4418.618,"end":4445.386,"text":"目前完全沒有看到我們經濟部有任何的作為那當然昨天卓院長有說要用我們的特別條例裡面的環境清理這個區塊來協助可是我們擔心他的預算會不夠我們這樣清一清弄一弄我問了我們台南市環保局他說會有五萬噸很嚇人"},{"start":4449.656,"end":4476.222,"text":"那問題是我們如果沒有分門別類由各個單位組織單位去做協助的話我相信我們特別預算這筆錢一定不夠部長是不是可以請命一下我們廠房的屋頂石棉襪還有廢棄物我們的中小企業署是不是可以來協助做一些補貼讓他們有感"},{"start":4479.178,"end":4492.918,"text":"因為到目前為止我們看了經濟部所有協助中小企業災後復原的部分其實我們琢磨的並沒有很多所以這個區塊我們可不可以加強一下部長"},{"start":4493.706,"end":4521.978,"text":"是 报告委员我想经济部在这个受灾区的协助措施我们大概分成三个部分第一个部分是对民众的部分也就是说他的家的这个部分淹水的救助金我们大概每户就会给到最高4万块钱那么中低收入户每户会到5万块钱然后第二个是对制造业制造业里面包括园区内跟园区外的厂商"},{"start":4522.978,"end":4546.33,"text":"我们补助他生产设备在场域复原每家最高20万补助节能设备呢每一个案补助20到40个person那么每家最高到500万集团到1500万那补助动力设备每kW补助700到5000元每家最高500万连营业额1亿元以上者补助1500万"},{"start":4547.887,"end":4567.245,"text":"那麼對災害復工的貸款我們對公告災區的業者提供利息的補貼最高是50萬元那麼貸款的金額我現在在爭取在爭取應該會得到這個同意也就是說第一年是免息"},{"start":4568.463,"end":4587.51,"text":"部長我知道你們有做但是我的重點不是在這一塊我知道你們有做你們對於家戶的淹水是由你們來支出的我知道我們經濟部隊中小企業我們也有20萬的設備補助我們也知道"},{"start":4588.51,"end":4606.903,"text":"然後針對一些節能的部分有協助我們也知道可是你知道現在中小企業在我們災區大家最痛的是哪一塊就是屋頂石棉花跟廢棄物的清理在這一區區塊你們沒有幫助到"},{"start":4608.384,"end":4635.624,"text":"畜牧場他們有農業部他們都有做一些協助的方式可是我們在中小企業這一塊經濟部是沒有的所以我剛剛才會跟你請命在這個區塊可不可以增加院長有說要用特別條例裡面的特別預算可是我看我們目前台南市的量光10棉瓦"},{"start":4636.909,"end":4663.836,"text":"这些数字就没有办法支撑了所以是不是我们经济部可以在这个区块来帮忙一下来协助一下报告委员我想清理的部分我们所协调的公班他们都愿意帮忙都愿意帮忙不是 是这些实名网我要怎么来做清理不是公班的问题是我要我今天清理出来之后"},{"start":4664.356,"end":4681.903,"text":"我太空包一堆一堆因為石棉瓦它是有毒的物質它不能隨便丟所以我們不要造成二次傷害所以在石棉瓦的部分一堆一堆的太空包我們要怎麼幫它來清理這些是"},{"start":4682.828,"end":4711.583,"text":"报告委员我们会马上跟前进指挥所就委员所关注的这个命题快速讨论希望能够得到一个快速解决因为这个必须要跟地方政府来共同协作所以我们会把这个放在最优先讨论的命题台南市政府因为我来自台南我知道的是台南市政府我们问过他没有量能而且没有经费这才是重点"},{"start":4713.154,"end":4735.012,"text":"那你的經費在哪裡你根本沒有補助這些中小企業這些廠房他們可以去處理這些實面化的費用這非常恐怖耶這預算非常恐怖耶不是你補助20萬他的設備我就用這個照片給你看那整間密密冒冒"},{"start":4736.633,"end":4763.671,"text":"大家自己都已經都自己要顧不完大家都知道啦可是你這個石棉瓦因為它不能亂丟它不能造成二次傷害所以我覺得我們一定要把這個命題把它當成一個重點所以部長這個是不是可以拜託一下我馬上處理我們又不會從官認定不是從官認定你們根本沒有補助啊"},{"start":4764.011,"end":4778.765,"text":"不 我们会把它在其他的项目里面把它列到其他项目里面好 拜托一下这个很重要否则它就一堆一堆在那里对 我们会马上处理然后请求环保局说环保局说没有啊你们中小企业没补助是"},{"start":4779.759,"end":4805.63,"text":"我們會馬上處理好 再麻煩然後第二個就是我們在任性特別條例裡面有一個叫強化電力系統我要問這個強化電力系統它所代表的是什麼大家知道我在7月7號看了那麼多2000多支的電感在台南市整個倒成一片"},{"start":4807.492,"end":4834.266,"text":"我已經說了要拜託我們經濟部要盡快提出如何電能地下化如何加強我們的韌性那請問這個強化電力系統有包含這個區塊嗎有嗎我可不可以請台電公司跟您報告沒問題我大概就簡單的跟委員報告主要有兩塊一個就是主幹線的地下化我們在"},{"start":4835.884,"end":4861.327,"text":"有吗有包括这个部分吗我说在我们任性特别条例这个200亿的部分要强化电力系统的这个区块有吗那个200亿里面有包括产业园区的也有包括一般的我们讲的现在既有的道路的这个改迁地下化的也有这个加强我们整个电网维护的所以这有200亿那我想这一定不够"},{"start":4862.148,"end":4887.755,"text":"所以我們每年在我們經濟部到底我們要怎麼再編列預算去做加強所以我已經說我昨天在行政院在做質詢的時候我就說了如果有誰擋這個預算請他來摘去看倒了兩千多隻的電感光台南市這個是一定要做因為對於極端氣候沒有人可以保證"},{"start":4889.52,"end":4896.827,"text":"哪一天一個丹納斯颱風它是青苔而已就把台南搞成這個狀態"},{"start":4898.871,"end":4920.376,"text":"沒有人敢預估這種極端氣候的狀態所以強化電力系統這個一定要過也一定要做我們再拜託台電盡快把這200億到底你要做在哪幾個產業園區然後要做在哪幾個主幹道我強調我們要從主幹道先做"},{"start":4922.114,"end":4941.321,"text":"主干道你主干道再牵引进来这一次我们所有都是在主干道所以为什么花的时间要那么长主干道要接近来再接近家户是 包委员我们那个分年跟这个相关做的地区我们都会把它列出来"},{"start":4941.67,"end":4965.759,"text":"拜託我要這個計畫我要這個計畫拜託送到我辦公室然後再來就是剛剛部長有說的你們有在協調我們銀行端是不是在利息的部分或是用我們補貼的部分來做處理部長我們的利益都非常好可是"},{"start":4966.826,"end":4990.607,"text":"在銀行的部分當然你要補貼他很開心啊可是光在所謂的災後復工的貸款他們就有很多的問題了他們會提出很多的門檻去把所有的工廠做一個束縛這個一定你們不知道"},{"start":4991.678,"end":5017.617,"text":"所以我認為你們的單一窗口一定要出來單一窗口一定要出來你叫所有的企業自己去找銀行端是不是我們有單一窗口來 部長是 報告委員 我們是有單一窗口而且我們的行動服務網現在是早上在家裡區公所"},{"start":5018.482,"end":5038.287,"text":"然后下午到各个灾区去访视解决这个受灾户他们的问题然后我们就是单一窗口我们的马上办中心就是单一窗口那你们的单一窗口可以跟银行端沟通吗可以如果银行端用了很多的条件来束缚的话我们会马上协调处理"},{"start":5038.567,"end":5049.875,"text":"可以嗎可以那我是不是請署長當天在我們開座談會的時候經濟委員會下去開座談會的時候那三家廠商已經都溝通好了嗎來 我們署長來 署長"},{"start":5054.375,"end":5074.134,"text":"跟委員說明那三家廠商那個麻豆區這一家因為是新增的貸款所以我們現在在協調當中江津區的這家公司是旧貸的展延所以我們也跟他既有的這個行庫也全力在協調目前都進展而且旧貸展延我們把這個他的需要的受災證明也開出來了"},{"start":5074.847,"end":5102.692,"text":"所以這個都全力在解掉那另外雪甲區這些廠商因為他是屬於大企業所以我們也把這個適用大企業的規範跟他告知所以這個我們入案的我們包含在這個從這個行動辦公室行動服務團成立以來所有入案包含是直接打進我們馬上辦服務中心所有的案件我們全部都有入案在處理有 有入案我覺得要把這樣的一個單一窗口宣傳出去否則每一次我們"},{"start":5103.672,"end":5124.213,"text":"通過的預算或通過的專案都是在銀行端做了一個組閣的動作所以這個很重要再來部長我再請教一下因為我們現在經濟部除了有中小企業的協助加護淹水的協助其實還有一個叫水利署的治水預算對不對"},{"start":5125.074,"end":5149.655,"text":"我想 我要拜託部長現在我們要利用災後特別條例來協助進行地方治水工程但是辦法還沒出來好 辦法還沒出來這個要快我想8月2號當天台南市光安南區就淹了一整天我在地方我浸水浸了幾天而且有的落地了白水我把整個"},{"start":5151.836,"end":5179.578,"text":"從頭到尾涉水去了解問題出在哪裡所以這裡有四個關鍵瓶頸如果這個四個關鍵瓶頸突破了那麼六塊寮排水我們花了那麼多錢好幾十億的部分才有效他哪一個六塊寮排水的上游要做分流規劃設計因為他從安定下來這次我們的安定是我們8月2號全台南"},{"start":5180.479,"end":5205.044,"text":"所有我們的雨量最多的區所以安定整個水壓到我們六塊樓排水所以如果他沒有做分流我相信未來都會面臨這個狀態第二個就是中游的新順橋改建他必須要在把北安路三段745巷口的側溝改建計畫一併納入還有要留書"},{"start":5206.084,"end":5233.038,"text":"抽水平台的位置才能解決三天之外一屆古堡樓的抽水需求還有第三個是重劃區他旁邊剛有一個重劃區滯洪池要加大增加容水量第四個就是六塊樓排水的下游要設置抽水站這整個所有的瓶頸如果完全提出他們現在台南市政府在做設計規劃要拜託部長要拜託水利署這邊"},{"start":5234.119,"end":5251.708,"text":"要把它抽出來因為這可能要10億以上可是花了10億才能把我們3、4、10億的六塊鳥排水真正凸顯它的滯洪效率所以這個部分再拜託部長是 我們會馬上辦理好 謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝現在我們請楊瓊英委員做詢答"},{"start":5264.73,"end":5276.509,"text":"謝謝召委 楊秋雲發言 邀請部長郭部長委員好"},{"start":5277.454,"end":5299.335,"text":"这段辛苦了那我们来讨论美国商务部长卢特尼克他在19号表示为了美国国家的安全必须在美国本土生产制造晶片那他不能让99%的高阶晶片都在台湾来制造他也强调了拜登政府当时免费的赠给"},{"start":5300.235,"end":5326.76,"text":"英特尔 台积电等这些晶片公司美国川普希望把这些钱转换成股权请教部长目前我们掌控的情况到底是如何在台美的谈判当中有没有讨论到这件事情还是让台积电自己去处理呢请做说明报告委员我也是刚收到这样的一个讯息"},{"start":5327.324,"end":5349.46,"text":"所以我们现在还在看应该这个讯息是我们谈判小组他们之前也没有收到的之前没有收到大家都是可能从新闻上面因为新闻我们在19号的时候看到这个讯息所以部长你的说法是说到目前为止你也是刚刚看到这个新闻"},{"start":5350.1,"end":5363.637,"text":"所以我們大概會來跟這個台積電來了解一下因為畢竟台積電是民間的公司不是國營企業所以我可能也要跟這個國發會來討論因為國發會是他的股東"},{"start":5366.832,"end":5381.557,"text":"是所以我們大概會就全面的來了解到底美國商務部長他講這個要入股的意思背後的含義是什麼是那這個我們還是有待一些時間的討論跟評估"},{"start":5383.197,"end":5397.673,"text":"是 非常好这也就是我们现在一直变化非常的大所以刚刚又有一则外媒的讯息出来外媒讯息说美国也有意要入股台积电来换取补助"},{"start":5398.554,"end":5422.222,"text":"換取補助雖然我們現在看到的是媒體上面在說的所以剛剛部長你的說法本心非常認同一旦有這樣的情勢我相信不管是民間公司或者是我們政府部門尤其我們國防會更是台積電的董事有一席也是股東之一我們更應當要去了解因為這延伸了我們整個產業"},{"start":5423.502,"end":5450.928,"text":"那所以我也希望这个变化非常的大那第一时间第一讯息就必须要有因应对策跟方案好那接下来本席要继续来跟你讨论的就是今天的主题我们组成了7月28号组成了灾后复健服务团给了这个马上办的中心那产业竞争力中心原管局这个联府基金会来协助"},{"start":5451.728,"end":5478.667,"text":"災後包括稅金的申報那要怎麼樣申請復工的貸款舊的貸款要怎麼樣去展延開立了企業受災的這些證明工作那還有你們包括了要生財的這個器具毀損金元是這個金還1萬元那設備的部分修繕是以20萬元首先我也要肯定經濟部因為本席一再跟你們討論"},{"start":5479.948,"end":5508.181,"text":"這一旦有困難發生的時候我們整合所有的力量作為一站式的服務的方式那現在在做的就是這個一站式的服務的方式跟本席之前跟你討論的內容你們做到了但是本席要請教到目前為止中小企業受災害的受損的情況究竟是如何我們協助的情況有沒有一個評估的一個規模"},{"start":5509.301,"end":5536.557,"text":"尤其在我台中地區這一次除了南部以外那我台中地區的狀況到底是如何請做說明報告委員我想我們現在目前就是按受災區我們都去透過這個組織去了解那受災戶一方面我們也有馬上辦服務中心受災戶他可以直接跟我們聯絡但是我們認為有的受災戶可能不太了解我們有這個馬上辦中心是"},{"start":5537.777,"end":5558.464,"text":"一定要管委去宣传主动出击所以我们在南部我们也有一个服务团在那个地方总之受灾户的情况我们都应该有高度的掌握所以目前我们受灾的状况"},{"start":5559.344,"end":5589.024,"text":"你們評估到底是怎麼因為台中的狀況可能比較平穩一點就是相對於相對於其他的地區那我們還是要注意比較平穩那南部我們不會說因為它比較平穩我們就沒有照我們是全體一體的大家都是國家有共識要全面的關心所以我們服務的態度都是一樣所以請教到目前為止這一次的受災情況大概損失會多少你們的評估它的規模跟範圍大概是多少因為已經過了一個多月了"},{"start":5592.146,"end":5616.779,"text":"我们现在还是先去抢救先抢救为第一那如果赵部长你这样的回答就是目前我们还没有办法去整体的预估到底受损会有多少受损会有多少到目前我们都跟前进指挥所受损的加速有多少受损的经济规模有多少"},{"start":5618.123,"end":5639.617,"text":"这个都还要盘点还没盘点出来因为太大那个灾害太大了所以我们现在报告委员像比如说我们经济部比如说我们一般的受灾户我们有分几个区是属于我们经济部在负责的那我们有三个区大概我们分到的受灾户大概600户"},{"start":5640.919,"end":5657.57,"text":"600戶 大家分工合作包括住家的但是我們經濟部我們因為有水利署我們有水利署在做公共工程全面啟動的廠商我們都把它公共工程停止然後全力來搶救部長 因為我們的災到現在要將近兩個月的時間"},{"start":5664.415,"end":5676.359,"text":"所以我們應該好好去評估到底我們受損的加數有多少我們受損的經濟規模有多少加數是知道的加數多少呢加數都知道的我是說這個住宅的話"},{"start":5678.433,"end":5707.153,"text":"我们负责的三个区加起来大概是600户那不止啊还有其他人负责其他的就是有其他的部门在负责所以你们要统筹本席要求的就是说我们碰到困难大家团结一致没错要去统计行政部门必须要未雨绸缪先知你要必须去盘点我到底受损的加数有多少我受损的经济规模有多少我要怎么样准备去协助我们这些受损的人员没有错委员所所"},{"start":5708.394,"end":5728.448,"text":"指导的这一部分我们前进办公室都有掌握前进办公室都有掌握我们是就我们分配到的责任区我们非常清楚你也把你前进办公室的资料给本席谢谢部长我们继续来讨论当然是台风跟豪雨的灾情台电的员工真的好辛苦一下子"},{"start":5729.028,"end":5749.688,"text":"就像你說的規模那麼大 倒了數千支的電線桿大家忙著搶災 我們要給予他們最高的敬意跟肯定但是我一再強調 你必須主管機關單位必須要去做好人力的一個調配人力的一個調配跟災情的評估災情的評估剛剛我們已經討論過 你會給本席"},{"start":5752.851,"end":5773.809,"text":"那就是人力的調配你到底要怎麼樣去協助他們要怎麼樣協助他們我覺得這個才是真正非常根本我們討論到這個問題的根源你會怎麼樣去調配這個人力讓他們可以做得來是 報告委員我想這個電力的部分是非常專業的部分"},{"start":5774.835,"end":5792.805,"text":"所以我們也不是說一般的人就可以去承接這樣的工作所以我們第一個就是我們台電有每一個區它在台灣分成好幾個區作業區那麼自己的區如果沒有辦法解決的話我們從其他的區調人進來協作"},{"start":5794.126,"end":5812.817,"text":"協助他們人力調配對 人力的調配就是由整個台電公司總部在做調配好 這個是本席要求了幾次一定要好好去調配讓我們台電最基層的員工可以好好的來工作最後一個議題本席跟你討論也就是產業協助200億我們要等嗎"},{"start":5816.158,"end":5842.019,"text":"我們要等嗎你的評估標準在哪裡本期在第一時間告訴你們關稅的問題不夠錢你們趕快編你們編了880億我說不夠光我台中用的不夠你再增加了50億 930億我要請教現在給我們的答案累加關稅上去20%再加累加關稅那您也跟我們的行政院長到了我們的台中來幾個議題"},{"start":5844.781,"end":5867.157,"text":"幾個議題第一個本席強調為什麼200億是告訴我們如果產業需要難道你們都沒有評估嗎當場的所有的理事長都告訴你們他笑不出來他也說他希望能夠怎麼樣簡化程序讓他們在急救的當時可以不倒下去"},{"start":5867.937,"end":5879.902,"text":"這個是政府非常關鍵的時刻所以我非常的納悶我本期喊了那麼久你們終於也在這一次增加的條例從5450億加到5900億當中450億裡頭有200億你們要作為我們這個傳統產業的支持的200億但是你告訴我們兩個字叫做預留行政院長告訴我說如果你們需要你可以改啊"},{"start":5896.141,"end":5923.999,"text":"部長 您是行政部門行政部門應該是要最了解我們的產業要怎麼樣協助我們的產業政策性的一個指揮才能夠讓民眾讓我們的產業安心所以本席要請教你的200億你們的評估到底是在什麼的情況之下你才會啟動因為我們現在的傳統產業坦白講這一次關稅最大的受害者就是我們的傳產"},{"start":5925.16,"end":5940.585,"text":"就是我們的傳產那政府沒有理由不協助他們對不對所以在這樣情況之下你也來自產業你最清楚所以本席覺得非常納悶到底是在什麼樣的評估什麼樣的條件下你會啟動這兩百億來救援我們的傳統產業請說明兩百億都是在所謂的電網韌性的強化"},{"start":5949.076,"end":5964.217,"text":"不是啦不是啦不是啦那另外啦那另外啦你的加強產業支持是200億電信任網又另外一條啦本席跟你講的是產業支持200億的不是任性支持的啦對不對不是任網的啦"},{"start":5964.597,"end":5981.377,"text":"就OK是那個產業支持預留產業支持部長你累了嗎產業支持你辛苦了我知道你現在在質詢的我都清楚謝謝是我們這個200億就是說當有需要產業我們在支持產業的時候不足的我們就200億再上"},{"start":5982.518,"end":6007.552,"text":"請教什麼叫不足 我現在已經不足我現在已經不敢接單我現在已經廠房不敢續約我一個月要繞過了十萬 繞過了八萬甚至有上千萬的這樣子還不夠嗎而且鄭麗君副院長回來她說美國的談判告訴我們它可能你現在暫時性總統告訴我們的是會延到十月"},{"start":6008.633,"end":6024.121,"text":"那現在的暫時性拖一個月會影響我們船長多大拖兩個月會影響多大你有評估嗎我們這些都有評估在那有評估那什麼條件你只告訴我們需要我現在正式告訴你我們非常需要"},{"start":6024.941,"end":6038.049,"text":"可以啟動嗎報告委員我們都一直在做可以啟動嗎我們也都跟產業一直在做對呀可以啟動嗎也都一直了解產業謝謝但是可以啟動嗎這200億可以講預留兩個字我沒有辦法接受我們現在已經用你們因為貴大會還沒有通過這個"},{"start":6048.031,"end":6063.99,"text":"这个预算嘛部长你们送来的200亿产业针对产业你就是写预留在你们送来的文字条例里头我们现在已经用其他的钱在支援在支持现在的这个厂商的需求了"},{"start":6064.11,"end":6080.29,"text":"部長你來自產業你了解當天他們也說工學會他們也拜託你院長也指示說在各個的產業別你必須要好好個別去做了解啟動了嗎我們在451已經在8月7號已經受理了"},{"start":6083.922,"end":6100.636,"text":"那是另外一回事嘛所以本席要請教你也就是當天院長說我們工學會十幾個理事長都在那裡希望能夠由您經濟部去指揮跟他們個別產業座談了解他們的需求對 我們都一直在做"},{"start":6100.896,"end":6127.13,"text":"你們開始啟動了沒有你把表格給我好不好時間給我我一起來努力好不好你把表格給我我們一起來努力一起來座談好不好一起來座談好不好好是你把表格給我你們要怎麼樣跟他們聯絡要怎麼樣談這時間我們一起來努力請把你們的時間表給本席好可以喔那我再一次結論我希望你們送來的"},{"start":6128.01,"end":6144.76,"text":"五千九百億裡頭有一筆兩百億專門支持中小產業的這兩百億不要預留不要預留因為我們產業的確現在就需要我請你好好地去深思協助我們的產業謝謝委員 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝我們現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答"},{"start":6162.112,"end":6175.005,"text":"謝謝主席 請郭部長郭部長委員好"},{"start":6175.871,"end":6189.326,"text":"部長 災情非常慘重 下去南部10趟這不是重點 重點要解決問題那首先 本席要先請教部長就是在7月6號當那是颱風過境跟7月28號的豪大雨"},{"start":6192.87,"end":6214.228,"text":"我們台電的電線桿將近有3500支被吹倒了所以台電人員非常的辛苦我們非常的不捨但是在7月15號在嘉義的役主發生了搶修的公安意外最後他是被電擊而離世了所以在這一點我們來討論一下這個質案的問題"},{"start":6216.85,"end":6240.12,"text":"那最重要的時候他們一定是電線都在地上那他們要上去的時候一定是安全措施都要完備才會升上去做修復在修復過程中怎麼修復的話台電的員工一定會注意到個人本身的安全但是有一個非常重要的就是有沒有斷電"},{"start":6244.182,"end":6255.336,"text":"他會觸電就已經壞那個整個電線桿倒塌都沒有電了為什麼會觸電所以你們整個職安公安的這個報告出來了沒有他是觸電"},{"start":6257.459,"end":6281.214,"text":"所以你們修好的時候一定要通報通報你們之後你們才可以把它通電送電是不是這樣子那所以也發生了一件事情嘉義那邊的那個豬舍裡面也是他還沒修好那個電線在地上還在這個淹水地方的電線在地上你們送電了整個豬都被電死了所以你們公安是怎麼做的"},{"start":6283.503,"end":6302.242,"text":"這個SOP是很重要的從2022年到現在就有15位我們台電員工因為這個問題而離世我們非常不捨這個一再的檢討你們報告出來檢討就要把這個公安做好來為什麼沒有做到請副總說"},{"start":6304.833,"end":6331.599,"text":"是 剛剛委員其實有提到其實所有的公安 其實所有的事故都會檢討那很多確實都是沒有按照標準程序我一直在強調不管是部長下囊不擠趟或者你們一再的檢討檢討要有結果你們所有的公安職安的SOP的過程怎麼做的 都要通報啊都要有安全的措施設置才會升上去的啊"},{"start":6332.718,"end":6340.448,"text":"所以為什麼會被電擊你在修理的時候就是沒有電嘛修好通報你才可以送電嘛"},{"start":6340.95,"end":6366.482,"text":"跟委員報告因為修復的電廠其實台電有可能是沒電但是附近有可能有一些自備的發電機他有可能會逆送電所以我們在SOP裡面才要求所有的員工在做這個現場的修復的時候必須要先減電我不是要責難你們我是不捨離世的員工好不好所以這次的檢討一定要把這SOP在我們教育訓練裡面一定要完備所有怎麼樣通報斷電送電這是最關鍵的問題好嗎"},{"start":6370.445,"end":6372.502,"text":"好 接下来我想请教"},{"start":6375.083,"end":6398.276,"text":"不涨的还是台风的问题也是因为丹纳斯的状况在我们的太阳能板这是台风的强风跟豪雨的关系屋顶 农地 余温这整个太阳能板在全台被吹垮的大概有14.5万片的太阳能板受损总重量有2800公吨"},{"start":6401.258,"end":6426.045,"text":"在發生在嘉義跟台南卓院長特別講說在8月19號環境部在8月19號整理出來那部長 院長都有講到說在8月16號有講說要好好的來檢討評估一下這整個太陽能板的這個整個規範那我們有在檢討嗎檢討什麼時候會出來是 報告委員我們都有在檢討好 檢討什麼時候出來"},{"start":6432.813,"end":6433.356,"text":"所有的應該是"},{"start":6435.387,"end":6460.986,"text":"我是不是請那個能源署跟你報那我主要要提的就是說自社會被吹垮這麼多就是因為我們這個整個耐震 耐風的這個耐風的這個能力這個結構都是用計時來做決定各區域去做決定的沒有統一的標準那是不是未來要統一的標準還是說有統一的規範不要說全部推給這個計時工會"},{"start":6464.108,"end":6487.548,"text":"是不是是 報告委員我想這一部分我們跟環境部這個彭部長都有在進行討論我們要進行一次全國的總體檢就像您剛剛所指定的我們在總體檢中我們就要更加講一下加固怎麼樣固定這個有時候搖晃的或者是太細的或太要加粗的這個固定的部分有在做總體檢嗎我們現在會"},{"start":6489.95,"end":6516.202,"text":"開始因為這個要因為跨部門要快颱風發生的時間就在夏天當然要快快點總體檢好不好謝謝委員這些都要做好評估要安全那接下來想問的就是說因為說我們在上個禮拜三有三讀通過說當然是颱風跟728豪雨災後的這個復原重建的特別條例那有講到強韌電網的問題"},{"start":6518.163,"end":6546.137,"text":"那我請問強振電網就是地下化嗎地下化的話現在也要評估全台地下化的狀況有在評估嗎這報告會出來嗎這個我是不是請台電跟您回答是副總在111年的時候我記得我們在做召委的時候特別有編了強振電網5645億給你們是10年的計畫現在做到現在有4年的成效如何我們其實有針對主要比較迫切的地區已經都大概都做好了"},{"start":6547.117,"end":6566.719,"text":"那現在全國的地下化的情形呢委員所指的5600多億當時是主要是針對比較大的電壓輸電等級的部分那最近其實包括院長提到的昨天院長提到的其實是針對這次災情比較屬於配電的電壓的部分所以他就必須我們台電現在目前在做一個全面的評估"},{"start":6567.489,"end":6587.409,"text":"那因為要地下化他必須要有一些條件啦因為淹水的地區你們怕潮濕啦還有電路的問題啦還有管線的問題這都有好 那我就直接請教一下比如說我的選區龍潭這是特別的龍心路到楊桐路這邊它就高壓電塔這整條路為什麼我們要趕快把這個電路"},{"start":6588.35,"end":6608.771,"text":"電路來穩定 強韌電網就是因為我們龍柯山崎在這邊還有我們的桃竹苗的大溪谷在這邊所以用電量會非常非常大所以我們大概將近這個5公里的這個道路上我們將近有8隻到10隻的高壓電塔但是我們整個路線上我們希望做電纜地下因為那個地方算是空曠空曠的話"},{"start":6610.793,"end":6629.745,"text":"風的阻力耐風力又是個問題所以可以做電纜地下為什麼不做電纜地下你們說只做有些地方做電纜地下有些時候還高壓電塔為什麼這個問題我問的工程師他說是管線滿線這附近是很空曠的地方管線滿線管線滿線還是可以協調相關單位從不叫來"},{"start":6634.008,"end":6655.488,"text":"在我們最近這幾年來我們處理的過程都可以看到對不對管線有150公分啊你有說台電有自來水要在最上面台電的話還有你們要占管線所以你們還有很多空管所以我說可以直接處理不要說一下一推就說電纜地下不可以一定要做高壓電塔好不好"},{"start":6656.189,"end":6683.615,"text":"是我們剛才講到重點了其實我地下化其實設備還是要出來啦所以還是要地方的配合還有我們地方都在配合是你們台電一推推得遠遠的就沒辦法管線滿線沒有滿線的問題啦台電不會推啦我們那個這個線路我們會再去檢討看看所以把相關單位找來我們管線的話都有150公分這麼寬怎麼安排中華電信天然氣或者自來水管"},{"start":6684.376,"end":6687.194,"text":"通通都可以大家配置 可以讓道啊"},{"start":6688.652,"end":6717.319,"text":"可以讓到啊可以調整路管線這個都一定要注意到就是說常常會被挖台電的管線會被挖壞掉為什麼被挖壞掉它道路施工都會挖到你的台電都是台電被挖到所以這個你都要把監討進去好不好道路施工其實要先套會所以很多工程的話大家一起解決不要把責任推掉好不好接下來我想問一下就是部長"},{"start":6720.038,"end":6745.651,"text":"因为对等关税从32%降到20%在20%当中的话最重要的就是日本跟韩国他们是15%而且没有叠加我们是叠加的所以我们的竞争力相对的我们的产业受到冲击非常非常大所以我们也特别调力要来协助补助我们的产业那现在有一个产业叫工具机的产业"},{"start":6746.471,"end":6764.158,"text":"部長你了解嗎了解工具機的競爭對象就是韓國跟日本是我們原來的話我們都是出口大部分都出口了大陸後來的話美國變成我們的第二個出口的地方但是現在因為關稅的競爭我們又被美國來放棄未來我們工具機這個產業的話何去何從"},{"start":6766.579,"end":6783.234,"text":"要往哪裡去為他們避開這些風險我們要如何幫他們佈局全球呢首先跟委員報告如果是地區就是做出口的部分除了美國以外那未來市場比較大的包括印度包括歐洲包括東南亞"},{"start":6784.395,"end":6806.958,"text":"这些都是美国以外会成长的地区我们会协助这些厂商加强在对这几个地区的拓展这是第一个在出口国家的部分的转换第二个我们会强化工具机对市场选择的时候对客户的选择我们会协助他做所谓telemed"},{"start":6807.711,"end":6831.141,"text":"不要去做一般的这个一般的是consumer的这个产品要做这个所谓特制化的产品也就是要量身特制因为日本跟韩国大部分他们的厂商都是透过大贸易商商社去洽接这些生意商社跟大贸易公司他们有一高的成本所以他们不会去"},{"start":6831.701,"end":6848.874,"text":"接这个所谓的特制化客制化的这个商品这个是另外一个所谓做商品选择客户的原则我们会帮助他先做这两个第三个我们会在制造成本上面协助他来降低我知道你都给这个产业给他们贷款是"},{"start":6849.694,"end":6874.103,"text":"貸款還是回歸到成本的問題現在我們桃園 經過我們經發局的統計我們的製造業對美國出口的大概有75億的美元廠商就有6800家 從業人員將近28萬現在發生什麼 他們要坐視修山了在我的選區裡面 龍澤科技公司他就已經決定了坐視修山 修三天了 這怎麼辦"},{"start":6875.256,"end":6904.338,"text":"眼前的問題要先解決啊你現在講的都是未來的整個程序佈局全球避開風險但是眼前的問題請部長你們來關心好不好龍澤科技現在我剛剛跟你們講的這數據6800家28萬的從業人員何去何從我去拜訪他們一下他們的就業他們的工作他們的薪資這是才最重要的我去拜訪他們一下了解他們的困難在哪裡眼前最重要的做事修善"},{"start":6904.778,"end":6907,"text":"是好不好這個我會來處理好謝謝部長是謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員做詢答張祺凱委員質詢完我們休息"},{"start":6941.969,"end":6970.11,"text":"來先請一下郭部長郭部長委員好部長今天答詢的時候笑容有比較多會講同理心跟人機幾機人力幾力今天看起來是比較氣定神閒這段時間一直在傳你的去留那個賴總統或者是左院長沒有跟你聊到這個事情"},{"start":6972.54,"end":7002.053,"text":"我的去留我想这个不是我可以决定如果我可以决定我就会跟您报告那第二个我在这个什么时候去留我想来是偶然来是偶然去是必然所以我在在位的每一天我就是全力以赴我之前也讲过了我一天当作两天在努力所以我每天做的工作的时间其实超过八个小时"},{"start":7003.622,"end":7024.889,"text":"希望是一個大家會肯定的經濟部的這個部長那老實講事實上在去年的6月13號那時候我就諮詢過你了那時候你在討論說你會不會是誤闖從你的小白兔可是那時候你的民調是很高啊你剛從企業來的時候我要提醒你說那時候王美花還任期了1431天希望你可以多做一點不過更重要的不是短跟"},{"start":7026.421,"end":7039.758,"text":"很長的問題啦是人民知道你要做什麼事情所以你如果再留下來下禮拜我會繼續再質詢到你你下禮拜留下來當經濟部長你有沒有什麼事情很想做的你覺得你現在很急著要把它完成的"},{"start":7041.358,"end":7062.487,"text":"我們在災禍的復原跟重建報告委員我想我們現在經濟部最重要的工作最重要的工作有兩項第一項就是在災區救災的事情第二項就是協助這個談判小組談關稅的問題還有你答應的事情把它做完來"},{"start":7064.639,"end":7078.241,"text":"你上次在這邊質詢 打詢的時候還有你去看了一些地方你做了一些引漏包括你去看我自己的新聞製膨紙上面那個損壞的光電板的時候你有做了一個承諾嘛你說你有包圍這個一定要清除完畢啊"},{"start":7079.045,"end":7096.799,"text":"是 報告委員我們你所指責的那個部分我們都已經從水裡面把它清到上面 滷上來了但是 對 就是說因為它的這個受災的這個情形還滿嚴重的我想大家都清楚"},{"start":7097.62,"end":7124.85,"text":"但是大家都关心它在水上是不是会造成大家水源的担心所以我们第一优先我在讲七月把它清除完之后它的意思就是说从水里面把它移到路上那我们也用最快的速度坦白讲那个如果说让厂商自己去做大概要两个月但是我们考虑到委员的这个关心所以我们是在七天里面就把它完成那个是我整个水利署"},{"start":7126.257,"end":7155.535,"text":"完全投入然后把我们水利署的公班然后借然后来帮助他们来清除的大家都很清楚嘛就是风灾是不是一个某个区域产生的而且很大大量的这个要处理事实上厂商他已经没有办法靠自己独自的能力去完成这个修复的事情所以也谢谢委员的这个关心所以我们也就是说请我们水利署的公班"},{"start":7156.88,"end":7185.265,"text":"甚至於這一次包括嘉義的救災都是一樣我們現在已經協調出我們整個都協調出來把嘉義 台南 高雄的公共工程的工班工作全部停下來全部進入救災全部進入救災當然彰化也有我想這個召委我們彰化也是一樣在處理這幾個地區的公共工程的工班"},{"start":7186.638,"end":7207.932,"text":"全部先停一下子公共工程然後所有的公班都進入災區搶救這個災民這一個做法我想我們也是跟委員一樣我們都是人力極力自己感受到那個情境我想委員我們在災區也碰過好幾次我搭高鐵我們也碰了好幾次"},{"start":7209.073,"end":7235.797,"text":"我們都可以了解在那個時期要靠我們的受災戶自己去解決問題其實是非常難的所以政府的態度政府的態度就是用政府的力量但是政府的工程可以稍微緩一下緩一個月 緩兩個月沒有關係但是受災區我們希望受災區所有的災民能夠早一日回到平日的這樣的一個生活這一點我想"},{"start":7236.957,"end":7263.838,"text":"委員在關心 我想委員也很會認同我們這樣的做法最近這幾兩天這農業大家有看嗎包括形象看起來都有改變了啦大家有肯定 不過我要提醒你現在人民期待不是只有從這個製縫池把它繞上來人民現在期待 本來就是說你所謂的清除碗應該就放回去整個回收處理廠嘛 對不對那現在 現在碰到兩個問題部長我要跟你講 兩個非常嚴重的問題第一 有些光電板"},{"start":7266.028,"end":7279.687,"text":"撈上來之後放到你經濟部的台廠的土地上面去了另外一個問題等一下我跟你講這個是吹哨者來撿取讓你到了當地去拍的我給你看 左下角這個左下角這張圖"},{"start":7281.36,"end":7300.672,"text":"你這光電的浮板跟這光電板放下來這在廢氣屋處理法上面是明明確確規定喔你要一個不透水的環布那個鋪面要有嘛對不對你看那個都沒做啦所以這個有污染你要把它做好了好不好那像右邊這些你看那個土這樣挖起來"},{"start":7304.835,"end":7329.748,"text":"你一些那個重型機器裡面去 那個油都漏下來所以整個污染要把它處理好 要處理得好誰啦第一 本來我都提前一年這個是他現在應該是回到回收處理廠去處理 這專業的那沒有的話他應該也要把它做好整個那個不要被污染 這是一個第二個 現在就是環境部部長最近去看了幾次"},{"start":7331.427,"end":7359.406,"text":"去看了幾次他發現有些製縫池你們管的嘛這光電板是你們管的 光電是你們管的他現在放在什麼地方不是放到台塘土地喔你放在那個製縫池旁邊的那個道路提案就開始把它碎掉了把那個浮板就碎掉了結果那個塑膠那個顆粒就滿天飛 滿天飄這邊你也在碎 台塘也在碎農地受到影響然後環境部長去看那邊的農地跟道路又受到影響"},{"start":7361.127,"end":7387.983,"text":"這個你去規範一下吧避免這個農地的污染好不好是 謝謝委員好 委員要講事情 我要跟您討論一下前陣子引起很大討論的這個河山場那個木林經費那個事情你後來有沒有檢討 有沒有發現出了什麼問題為什麼那時候那麼多人在罵你我是這個樣子 我想委員你也很清楚我來當這個部長之前我是大學的教授"},{"start":7389.244,"end":7392.356,"text":"我是社會科學的研究者我想你也很清楚"},{"start":7393.479,"end":7419.116,"text":"你也寫過論文我們在做民調的時候通常有一些變數關係為了要確實的去了解消費者的意願的時候我們會把一些變數拿掉我只是說敦親牧林會是其中的一個變數但是我想因為當初他們在講說我們整個我們恆春的鄉親有百分之七十七的人是支持的"},{"start":7419.676,"end":7445.124,"text":"但是我做一个科学研究者我想我们会对这样的一个命题的解读会提出说我们是不是要再研究一下真正的了解我对这个敦青木林废我认为这个是没有问题的我们台电到每一个地方去都有敦青木林废我相信我们恒春的这些这些怎么讲我的"},{"start":7446.204,"end":7458.089,"text":"同鄉的這個...你也畢東人我畢東人 但是我不可能...因為鄉親在講情色必要的話可能都要道歉因為你會不會講太快我不是道歉我這個...大家的看法不太一樣"},{"start":7459.304,"end":7477.057,"text":"我只是就一個他的民調的上部那個問題我在就教於這個委員但是他把我歪樓到別的地方去說我說我們的這個屏東的這個城村的鄉民是喜歡這個東京飯這個是完全是"},{"start":7478.769,"end":7495.206,"text":"你認為這個合理嗎委員你也是社會科學的支持者吧其實民眾為什麼會罵你會那麼抗議其實你那個講法你附列一個非常重要河山場旁邊附近的居民那四個鄉鎮他們為什麼希望河山可以研擬"},{"start":7497.011,"end":7525.164,"text":"一個跟台電的員工對 你聽我講對台電員工的付出跟努力有很大的關係因為你的員工台電的員工在河山廠把他經營得非常好他們不只蹲青木林喔他們安全在全世界每次評比都是名列前茅啊所以那個居民才會覺得安全啊所以他們肯定你聽我講他們希望河山可以營利他們就肯定台電這段時間的付出我聽得懂嗎"},{"start":7526.223,"end":7536.021,"text":"河山厂的厂长 副厂长他们都在那边买房子结婚生子他们很多人退休都是在那边生活"},{"start":7537.096,"end":7564.078,"text":"他們跟居民已經融為一體了這個才是真正為什麼附近的居民希望河山可以繼續原理因為他們經歷的是安全嘛所以他們才會接受你是一直在講說什麼慕尼基金那一塊你就傷了他們的心你為什麼不去看台電員工的付出還有這段時間他們對國家的貢獻我同意委員你的說法委員我同意您的說法只是說如果說我們在做這個社會科學的討論的時候"},{"start":7565.865,"end":7591.58,"text":"我們可以做一次測試啊可以做一次測試來做一次民調我只是就民調的部分在跟他討論不是說對這個敦俊慕林會這件事情在做討論所以那個命題不一樣結果會不一樣我想這個委員你應該可以支持我的說法要不然台電的員工他也覺得心寒或覺得說沒有被重視"},{"start":7592.02,"end":7616.526,"text":"他們這麼付出你經濟部長一定肯定台電也要肯定河山產跟附近經濟對我們經濟發展的貢獻你要考慮我們屏東人的心情喔為什麼我們屏東的人要來忍受核電廠在我屏東由這個全國的人來決定屏東人要接受這個河山的研議呢為什麼合一合二合四不研議呢保定"},{"start":7617.026,"end":7636.874,"text":"河山場很安全啊國際模範生為什麼你會有個概念您的意思就是河市是不安全的不只是河山場附近的四個鄉鎮的居民超過七成以上都要求河山要營利你整體的民調裡面河山場支持連個屏東人支持河山場比例還是比較高的"},{"start":7637.834,"end":7662.364,"text":"你要去看民調你不要自己以為說你現在要推動賴總統不要核酸或者總統不要核酸你就汙名化核酸連你的好朋友黃承信都講了不要汙名化核冷核酸廠是安全的好 另外我要問你一個報告委員你剛講那個變數報告委員核酸廠是不是安全必須要由專家來決定而不是靠民調來決定安全這個命題絕對不能夠是用民調來決定對嘛 這個是裡面"},{"start":7664.065,"end":7692.833,"text":"安全必須要由專家來決定的事情你講這個就沒專家了 我跟你講我這個是非常專業的你們今天這個就是現在很多民眾在罵你們的這次的河山公投有提到說要投那個安全嗎安全是必要的在河管法修正的時候裡面就清楚要經過安全檢查確定以後他才可以研議這次我們要投的是要不要研議報告委員他是個必要的要不要研議總統已經講得非常的清楚"},{"start":7694.262,"end":7709.168,"text":"兩個必須 三個原則只要符合兩個必須 三個原則它就可以研議所以我就不知道說這個公投的命題而且特別為我屏東的這個核電廠去做一個公投那為什麼不一起談核一核二"},{"start":7709.648,"end":7730.01,"text":"何氏呢他也是在谈核电的原意如果说今天是一个确实的命题那么他应该讨论的是核电要不要原意而不是说核三要不要原意在这个命题我的个人的观点跟我小代表的我的这个知识告诉我"},{"start":7730.851,"end":7759.428,"text":"正確的事情我們都支持所以您剛剛在講說那如果沒有安全那安全是大家共事OK那我們到底要討論什麼挑問題的那麼清清楚楚沒有安全什麼可能嚴厲對不對而且柏定你的問題我回答你我是民眾黨黨團負責提案說明的委員為什麼當初訂的這個是河山嚴厲沒有其他河山因為去年的河山剛剛大體檢過嘛它是最安全的嘛"},{"start":7760.683,"end":7789.365,"text":"所以我們才從核三做起啊博定你核三研歷823過了之後你就可以進一步去討論核二或者是核四廠要不要體檢嘛你先跨出一個最安全的核三他最新嘛對不對統新而且他去年你花了那麼多錢他剛大稅休完他又是最安全的博定現在喔現在立法院的立法委員正在核三廠在考察我們也確認他是安全的他的那個十四除人潮"},{"start":7790.595,"end":7818.39,"text":"就是這個燃料棒用完之後出來它就可以用四年喔目前最安全的就是核酸嘛所以先從核酸做起嘛我想不能夠救我來 你看一下核廢料問題來 把電話拿出來核廢料上一張你一直在講這個三原則安全全世界在用核電的那麼多國家哪一個國家不認為安全要不然他怎麼敢用"},{"start":7819.332,"end":7838.187,"text":"核廢料的處理核廢料美國有問題嗎美國的AID處長還跟你講不只是技術設備連核廢料他都可以幫忙處理全世界現在核廢料任何地方有問題嗎現在台灣的核一廠 核二廠 核三廠核廢料現在放你的"},{"start":7840.489,"end":7868.098,"text":"它在核一核二都在這個這個它廠區裡面啊對嘛全世界也是這樣嘛全世界有哪一個人跟你哪一個國家跟你講說它核廢料有問題沒有啊沒有沒有沒有沒有啊那個委員我跟您報告日本日本的這個地形跟我們是差不多的日本有很多已經停的這個核電廠到現在都沒有重啟"},{"start":7869.813,"end":7898.154,"text":"那你認為他為什麼沒有重啟我想還是一樣我們要由專家來考慮他的安全問題嘛你知不知道民進黨昨天做了一個做了一個發文被那個日本打臉嗎就是你剛剛講的那個日本的記者是打臉你民進黨昨天竟然說核電重啟不是國際歧視他引用的就是你剛剛講引用日本結果一部分的媒體馬上出來打臉他他講了這段話我講給你聽"},{"start":7899.551,"end":7928.203,"text":"他說你民進黨怎麼可以講說我們日本什麼自賀二號機敦賀二號機這些重啟有困難日本的電器新聞直接打臉他說沒有啊什麼自賀二號機地震前跟後日本的科學的評估都是一致根本沒有問題更重要的日本政府已經提出了2025年的他們能源基本計畫裡面明定第一個他們要拖碳就是減碳"},{"start":7929.312,"end":7938.543,"text":"第二個為了電力的需求所以他們要用最大的限度去活化核能這個核能現在是日本的能源主軸"},{"start":7940.239,"end":7962.268,"text":"日本昨天打臉了民進黨結果你今天臉都衝過來又被打了沒有 報告委員我們在討論的你就是很容易把它Shift到別的地方去就是因為你講的跟昨天民進黨一樣人家很清楚跟你講日本 你剛剛講日本日本就是他們認為安全來 我給你看來 博定來看下一張博定 日本目前博定 你這樣說我們日本總是有歸宿歸宿還沒有恢復你這麼詳情來 博定你看 來 博定看"},{"start":7969.13,"end":7992.027,"text":"日本目前有33座核電的基礎到2024年11月它有7座電廠的13個反應爐本來是3個有6座嘛 對不對日本現在已經有恢復了7座7座電廠13座反應爐在運轉了他們的目標是後面這個更重要他們還一直在增加2023年要恢復到20"},{"start":7993.581,"end":8003.464,"text":"所以日本不是你講的不然日本人很重視安全啊你一講說日本沒有恢復所以日本人家出來抗議我沒有講說日本沒有恢復委員你又再斷章取義了"},{"start":8004.861,"end":8025.329,"text":"又在斷章取義我沒有講這句話我是講說日本也有沒有還沒恢復的這個電廠他說扛聖的問題就是安全的問題嘛是啊你也是同意是安全的問題啊是不是這樣但是我的意思是說安全的問題不能夠用公投來決定嘛"},{"start":8026.309,"end":8055.444,"text":"安全的問題一定要專家決定嘛對不對譬如說我們有這台車這台車載40噸啊大家也認為說40噸還可以開啊問題是不是我們在想說它可以開就可以開嘛一定要電機技師所有的這個專家來決定說它可以開對啊所以要你們但是所以這個問題就是不是用公投就可以來決定說核安會跟台電都要去檢驗它確定是安全的嘛這個安全的責任政府就要負啊"},{"start":8056.502,"end":8069.295,"text":"所以安全不是這次公投的題目所以我們你要投的是要不要研議那政府本來在核管法在這次公投的條文裡面就是我們在講過了總統也講得非常清楚前世界哪一個國家會在不確定是安全的時候會重啟核電來保證我給你看一下你都要說40年有沒有研究美國啊"},{"start":8080.987,"end":8083.973,"text":"美國現在有94座的核電機組其中89座都是超過40年"},{"start":8090.189,"end":8111.724,"text":"40年當然是安全的啦所以所以剛剛人家講的日本有些人超過40年他經過安全測試之後確定安全他就用了嘛美國也是一樣嘛所以來來 保定你講我有事要講嗎抱歉 可能要快一點那個等一下民進黨立委說我站太多時間我今天給你很多時間講法你載美國車啦載40噸啦你載的美國車跟我載的美國車一樣啦但是載的人不一樣啦你覺得40年後那些車的condition是都一樣的嗎"},{"start":8120.349,"end":8148.13,"text":"我剛才在說 保定我們的台電是很優秀的我們合一廠 合二廠 合三廠在國際評比我們的車都保養得很好都是名列前茅你對自己有信心而且我們的機器我們機器跟技術都是美國來的安全的問題一定要專家講保定你想要對自己這麼沒有信心我剛才在說黃梓欣說你們不要汙染核電你還一直在汙名化講對自己沒有信心安全的問題一定要專家你經濟部長不能靠民眾大家的意識來決定他是不是可以做"},{"start":8148.55,"end":8171.065,"text":"你這樣是完全不尊重民意 不然你怎麼這樣說民意是 民意的部分我們一定尊重對啊 你剛才說不是由他們來選沒有安全的事情為什麼要公投 就是這個全民意識的展現嘛就你們講三條件的共識嘛你當然要尊重民意啦好啦 我知道我時間再拖下去不行了那個主席都已經 大家看我我告訴你 馬上823就要公投了 大後天啦"},{"start":8172.566,"end":8198.94,"text":"我們現在結議文跟提案文裡面都清楚講它是一個便宜的店穩定的店 乾淨的店我也很希望就是說823如果通過了這個門檻之後你本來就依法要做嘛希望你如果留下來好好去推動整個河山廠可是我告訴你河山廠是最新的去年底剛剛提醒過請好好去做事讓河山廠可以趕快研立 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8211.374,"end":8228.904,"text":"好,我們來看一張照片。"},{"start":8246.186,"end":8275.179,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8304.491,"end":8305.831,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8313.166,"end":8327,"text":"這張圖片是在2012年10月1日拍攝的"},{"start":8336.15,"end":8340.757,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":8352.633,"end":8377.179,"text":"剪水,因為我們沒有剪水,阿四,他講的全部都是剪水剪水,剪水,剪水,剪水,剪水,剪水"},{"start":8378.255,"end":8380.117,"text":"我這個禮拜五希望下去"},{"start":8397.332,"end":8417.332,"text":"我想我們要先看到表演的狀況對,Escal推的第一年的狀況對,Escal推的第一年的狀況有沒有顯著的效果?沒有程序啊,我們就...我們就看到顯著的效果我們就看到顯著的效果我們就看到顯著的效果我們就看到顯著的效果"},{"start":8424.005,"end":8434.752,"text":"對呀,因為它現在也不見了然後剛剛有一個作者比較教學如果有的話就請教我再跟蔡媽祖問一下好"},{"start":8452.365,"end":8453.907,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8470.42,"end":8495.478,"text":"他們AI技術也做得還不錯他們好像就是ISCO,ISCO他在補貨,你有沒有看過他以前你們在做減碳、做序位所以你的數位變成數碼,減碳跟ISCO"},{"start":8755.737,"end":8783.218,"text":"現在請鄭天才委員做詢答主席有請部長郭部長"},{"start":8791.381,"end":8818.5,"text":"部長好委員好辛苦了這個7月6號7月6號這個中度颱風只是中度而已那台灣歷經這個颱風是每年都有有中度也有強度很強的還有比這個還有"},{"start":8820.958,"end":8845.03,"text":"這個從7月6號到現在真的是夠久了那我們看這個我們經濟部的報告裡面提到這個中度颱風也請台電也上來了電線桿倒塌三萬五千支以上這個不曉得在過去的記錄裡面"},{"start":8849.229,"end":8874.299,"text":"這個電線桿倒塌的數量這一次不是不曉得是不是最多的一次台電有瞭解嗎應該是最多的一次啦好這個莫拉克颱風也是中南部莫拉克也所謂的八八風災也是中度中度颱風所以這個"},{"start":8876.752,"end":8886.547,"text":"不曉得有沒有去到底是什麼原因怎麼會倒塌這麼嚴重這個台電有沒有去了解"},{"start":8887.572,"end":8912.895,"text":"報告委員 這個這一次的颱風會這麼嚴重主要就是它的這個颱風走向不一樣過去的颱風大概都是由東往西這一次的這個丹納斯颱風是由南到北那一進入到嘉南平原以後那個風就轉進去了因為它太空旷了所以轉進去以後因為我們那個電感第一面就全倒那個部長"},{"start":8914.266,"end":8942.512,"text":"因為我是過去在台灣省政府20年了然後在中央服務10年然後我又是花蓮人所以颱風沒有錯很多都是從花蓮台東這樣上來我剛擠的這個莫拉克颱風它就不是從花蓮台東過去的就是從就是從這個西部"},{"start":8944.554,"end":8964.122,"text":"不管怎麼樣都會先經過屏東都是從南而往北基本上是這樣所以這個都是要去評估當然除了這個之外當然這個也回去也請部長轉達給這個水利署"},{"start":8970.288,"end":8998.42,"text":"這個水利署的部分也是很嚴重所以這次的特別條例裡面也有針對水利設施這些那這個這裡面我一直在在判斷我只能用判斷這個當然也可以讓水利署去了解那個房子民間的房子一直"},{"start":9000.202,"end":9026.892,"text":"净水那就是排水的问题嘛对不对排水当然有很多种状况然后又是光电的问题所以这个有时候是光电因为排水大家不种田的排水设施就放在那边然后是不是那些光电的那些剩下的那些器材就"},{"start":9029.516,"end":9053.556,"text":"在深設的時候是不是就阻塞了這些水溝排水設施都有可能所以在這個要請水利署水利單位包括也可以會同這個農田水利會他們在清理的時候是不是有清理到這些了"},{"start":9054.557,"end":9078.317,"text":"这个都是因为这个跟能源署有关系啊到时候能源署在核定相关的光电的时候的就要去特别去要求啊特别去要求我们要整体的去而不是自己做自己的不然的话怎么会这个因为台风然后后面的豪雨嘛对不对"},{"start":9079.195,"end":9105.808,"text":"也不是像豪雨那樣啦就是下雨嘛我們就稱豪雨好了就讓這些房子一直一直積水室內一直積水那就是排水設施的問題有水利署的也有那個農業部這個農協水利署這種灌排兩種嘛所以這個部分都是需要共同的透過這樣的一個"},{"start":9108.034,"end":9135.821,"text":"清理的時候就要去了解到底是什麼原因造成這些這個是我的建議當然我剛提到莫拉克颱風8月8號發生的行政院很快的12天行政院12天就提出了莫拉克颱風的災後重建特別條例12天就送到行政院立法院"},{"start":9137.041,"end":9160.961,"text":"當然這個不是你主責的啦那是相關的部會應該要怎麼樣去協調組織的機關應該要提出因為這個真的是這次太慢啦7月6號的颱風當然是颱風加上接下來的豪雨這個國民黨團他一直要求一直要求才完成這個特別條例"},{"start":9162.034,"end":9186.211,"text":"所以在这样的一个情形之下经济部在整个600亿当然行政业本来没有那么多了500多亿所以后来600亿协商之后通过的是600亿经济部编列了这个187.41亿当然预算书还要审预算案还要审"},{"start":9187.113,"end":9215.854,"text":"在这样的一个情形之下所以我刚才讲上次审议算了说我们都会去就会去想要去了解这些所以刚提的这些怎么样横向的联系原因怎么样去彻底的去了解这个原因这个是一个除了台风是一个很基本的原因但是造成这样的一个灾害那个原因真的是要去加强"},{"start":9216.823,"end":9240.108,"text":"那這樣的一個經費是不多當然這個經濟部要做的事情也還真多光這個中小企業你們也提出了這些這個災禍復原的這些措施當然都不足當然有的尤其企業發生這些狀況間接受害的其實還包含勞工"},{"start":9242.559,"end":9268.37,"text":"這些企業的勞工當然這個在後復健條例裡面沒有包含這個部分了怎麼樣去去那個這個都是需要去解決的問題好這個光電板能源署包括當然這個光電板因為這個為了加速所以也沒有做過期也都不用做環評"},{"start":9270.444,"end":9290.748,"text":"所以这个部分都是能源署在去继续在进行这个光电的你看这个一个台风造成这么大的一个光电板的一个损害然后造成的这些这些2800公吨15万片"},{"start":9296.148,"end":9322.99,"text":"這個等於相當於五年五年台灣的廢棄的數量所以這個跟能源政策都有關係都有關係所以這個部分這個能源政策台電經濟部怎麼樣去因為這樣的造成台灣雖然已經走到這個地步該試檢討"},{"start":9326.569,"end":9348.364,"text":"該是好好檢討的時刻了所以這個部分是一個因為時間的關係我也不是這個專業了但是從這個數字數量來看的話我過去我也跟部長提了好幾次我是沒有要跟你要數字了一定要去評估經濟部"},{"start":9353.497,"end":9370.863,"text":"對於風電 光電 反正是濾電的部分投入了多少經費 這個都是人民的納稅錢產生電了之後 台電用比較高的經費去買這個電 濾電"},{"start":9376.139,"end":9387.635,"text":"跟核能的電又有差距這個就是要整體的該是好好的評估而且透過相關的目前的實際的狀況然後長遠的才能夠長遠"},{"start":9392.894,"end":9409.638,"text":"才能够长远的为台湾的经济的发展这个是一个我提过很多次了但是真的是要该是好好评估的一个时候好不好是谢谢委员"},{"start":9423.913,"end":9450.093,"text":"現在請趙薇來發言好 謝謝主席我想要請郭部長請郭部長趙薇好部長好"},{"start":9451.613,"end":9478.016,"text":"不管去或留都要對在你身為部長任內所有的做一個你自己的評比你認為你有協助經濟部協助我們中小企業不只在這次風災有什麼樣子的轉變你是不是跟國人報告一下"},{"start":9478.971,"end":9494.856,"text":"報告委員 我想我的去留這個不是我自己可以決定的那我只要在位的一天我就是全力以赴我之前也講過了我是一天當作兩天在使用兩天當作一天在使用"},{"start":9497.556,"end":9521.681,"text":"這個我每天要主持三四場會議那也要到市場去到這個工協會去聽聽業者的這個聲音現在我最大的工作兩項工作第一項就是災區救災那因為災區救災這個一刻都不能緩不能緩所以對我們來講這個"},{"start":9525.29,"end":9534.682,"text":"如果早一天快一點讓這個災區的受災戶恢復到這個平日的這個生活這個是我們最重要的工作經濟部"},{"start":9536.368,"end":9557.463,"text":"除了這個幫助這個受災戶之外整建他的這個屋舍之外我們對那個實際從事商業活動的或者實際從事工業製造活動的我們都希望他能夠快速恢復運作所以在他們有任何因為每一家的需求不會一樣"},{"start":9558.615,"end":9574.366,"text":"每一家的需求不會一樣所以我們就是總的來講我們有各種的這個協助措施也有各種的補助措施這個是我現在救災的工作所以我們救災工作除了這個中氣署以外"},{"start":9575.066,"end":9602.439,"text":"我們包括能源署包括水利署都全都投入特別是水利署因為水利署我們為了要救災我們把水利署目前在這個嘉義台南的工班全部把它移到這個救災的這個工作上面當然也包括趙偉寧的這個故鄉彰化也是一樣只要我們一直優先去處理啦因為"},{"start":9603.683,"end":9613.635,"text":"他們如果不停下來來協助做救災現在市場上找不到有人可以來處理這麼大量的救災工作"},{"start":9614.471,"end":9642.142,"text":"所以我想這一次的我們配合前進辦公室在統籌這整個的災區的工作的分配我想我們也要感謝水利署過去他們的這些工班願意來幫忙甚至於我跟委員報告我們所接受的責任區裡面屬於中低收入戶的"},{"start":9643.646,"end":9669.376,"text":"都是由我們的經濟部所屬的機構來承接他們是不用付錢我們現在經濟部也在考慮做一件工作我認為中低收入戶的小孩子也應該要有這個教育成長的機會雖然我們國家國民教育一直到國中但是我認為我要讓他這個"},{"start":9672.011,"end":9694.311,"text":"不會受到這個家庭的影響也不會受到這個災情的影響怎麼樣協助他那你怎麼協助他我們現在就是給他們找廠商來然後就是給他們食物捐助就是給他們課桌椅給他們這個書包來補助他們對中小對中低收入富豪"},{"start":9694.771,"end":9710.469,"text":"中低收入户是我们政府的认证但是除了中低收入户以外在很多不符合中低收入户标准的我希望经济部也能够一并的照顾他们可以吗"},{"start":9710.99,"end":9731.857,"text":"当然那个是我们除了政府应该做的事情以外我是说经济部在处理过去的这个过程里面我们发现还是有一群比较需要我们紧急给他这个辅助的救助的这一些部分那因为在等到政府有一定的程序"},{"start":9732.577,"end":9750.795,"text":"那他可能还不积极所以我们现在就是食物捐助很多包括我们这次经济部大概有900多件的电器家电商品也有这个请具我们大概第一个时间几千套的请具都先进去了这个就是我们经济部"},{"start":9751.756,"end":9774.48,"text":"我们的中小企业署我们传发署的署长他们发挥这个人力集力的这个爱心我们都是请我们的厂商来协办大家也非常乐意这个在这个所谓的CSR企业的这个CS上面我们就跟他讲我们也鼓励他要人力集力这个点我想我们经济部正努力在做这些事情"},{"start":9775.117,"end":9795.877,"text":"好就關稅的問題受影響的中小企業你說要帶他們協助他們去美國去設有嗎報告委員我們是說他有意願去美國的我們協助他快速出海落地"},{"start":9797.435,"end":9813.053,"text":"因为过去经济部没有做这些事情的话他们都必须要单打独斗但是我认为单打独斗太可怜了因为到美国你随便盖一个厂都要四年到五年但是如果由政府把他们整合"},{"start":9813.994,"end":9838.047,"text":"所以只是協助有意願去的嘛是不是對並不是要求他們要去購買投資有沒有沒有要求我們只是說明當你們有意願到美國去投資或到海外去投資的廠商那麼政府經濟部站在這個協助的這個角色我們會幫他快速的出海落地"},{"start":9839.008,"end":9862.067,"text":"好 那現在因為這一次的關稅的問題那造成了我們不管是中部也好 其實全台很多出口的產業都有無薪假的問題那現在越來越高了那我們怎麼樣解決"},{"start":9863.499,"end":9882.529,"text":"两个部分大部分的这个厂商他们会修无薪假是因为他们不敢报价那为什么不敢报价我们所了解的程度就是汇率他没有办法掌握所以第一个我们先稳汇先让那个汇率就是远汇远期汇率跟这个"},{"start":9885.391,"end":9910.984,"text":"我们在协助它我们也跟银行都谈了我们有一个商品叫做选择权加上远期汇率我想这部分委员是专家我们把它做成一个商品请银行让小企业微型企业它可以快速买到这个商品就可以稳定它的报价这样会增加它拿单子的机会第二个"},{"start":9911.644,"end":9931.522,"text":"第二个如果他真正必须要休假的时候那么当然劳动部会给他们一些支持但是经济部我们建议这一些厂商可以来经济部的试炼线我们在AI的试炼线我们希望他可以学习下一个阶段的技术"},{"start":9932.242,"end":9944.605,"text":"那么可以操作AI的应用在这个设备上面这样会增加它非常高的function我想这个是目前经济部可以努力的这个方向"},{"start":9948.035,"end":9973.696,"text":"就是除了提供金融支持以外我們就是協助匯率避險然後提升它的競爭能力好 剛才其實業務委員問到現在美國的商業部長有在講要投資他們不只要投資英特爾也要投資台積電我問你那投資台積電要不要經過我們台灣的投審會"},{"start":9976.365,"end":9978.019,"text":"要看他投資多少了"},{"start":9978.646,"end":10006.911,"text":"要不要經過如果當初也有傳出說我們聯電要投資英特爾對不對那投資聯電去投資英特爾要不要經過投審會就是你經濟部管的你不能夠在以你民間企業來身為經濟部長你不能夠在以說他們不是你的公司所有公司涉及台灣的晶片的相關的"},{"start":10007.611,"end":10033.172,"text":"這樣子的關鍵的時候都是經濟部要主管的不管是台積電美國要不要投資台積電他們如果來申請我們就會了解是不是他們要申請啦他們要申請對於美國要投資台積電或者是聯電要去投資英特爾等對於台灣有重要關鍵的"},{"start":10035.086,"end":10044.913,"text":"我們都應該要一併的做審理嘛對不對要保護台灣的關鍵技術嘛是不是不然未來怎麼樣讓台灣的經濟能夠繼續的穩定成長嘛是不是"},{"start":10053.419,"end":10069.627,"text":"那這也就是我們現在對臺灣的電力以及相關的我們中小企業重建的這樣子的工作我們希望經濟部都能夠一併共同的審視好不好好好 謝謝"},{"start":10087.062,"end":10097.232,"text":"好现在请赖瑞文委员做询答好现在谢谢主席请部长郭部长"},{"start":10101.26,"end":10129.916,"text":"也請一下這個產業運輸管理局一起來 北東部長我先請教一個問題其實大林埔遷村我一直在關心一直在關心這樣的一個進度那其實從2016年就在追包括每次總諮詢那2018年蘇院長核定經費之後那到現在又已經2025年了又過了六七年了那我想問一下部長明年有沒有編列經費來做這些工作"},{"start":10132.803,"end":10148.195,"text":"已經編列了 有編列了齁我得到的訊息是大概編了60億的經費 這個正確嗎是 是啦齁那裡面60億大概做在公共設施跟公有地的一個購地經費嗎包括跟台塘跟交通部港務局的經費嗎"},{"start":10150.134,"end":10178.674,"text":"部長是嗎這些採購經費是所以這也等於是一個很跟也讓當地的鄉親們了解確實經濟部是動起來了因為已經編低一筆經費60億然後即將來作為收購這個公共設施的建設跟公共土地的購地經費那我希望這個部分能夠加快來進行了好不好請部長經濟部的部分一定是會加快進行那還有其他哪個部分"},{"start":10179.554,"end":10194.784,"text":"地方政府好我請部長也加速跟地方政府的溝通好不好市府的 因為這個是由經濟部主辦委託給市政府辦理但是畢竟主辦方是經濟部所以我還是要請部長跟副局長這邊要盯緊好不好這個"},{"start":10197.304,"end":10217.024,"text":"因為從2016年談到現在都已經這個快10年了那從蘇院長核定到現在也快7年了其實這個速度要加快要不然當地鄉親都一直覺得說到底簽不簽到底是簽真的簽假的好不好部長應該是簽真的吧我去 我跟你一樣我去公聽會嘛"},{"start":10217.935,"end":10237.663,"text":"我能夠了解所以我們大埔村的鄉民的村民的意願所以我們會努力來達成部長其實去也聽到很多心聲很多人擔憂的是到底簽不簽速度能不能快一點幾乎都是這樣的一個那要簽速度要快一點"},{"start":10238.283,"end":10266.562,"text":"所以經濟部的部分沒有問題了我們是全力以赴好不好那就請如果你談到市府部分就請經濟部也協助了好不好請市府那邊也加速了那再來我來問一下丹利普前春裡面有涉及到環評跟都計的程序嘛那都預計在明年的包括11月12月陸續來完成那這個其實也可以快啦我舉以前國企的例子國企環評可以拖了13年那真的是很沒有效率啦"},{"start":10268.383,"end":10296.314,"text":"部長企業家出身不管環評過或不過最糟糕的就是拖了13年不敢做決定這是最糟的決定那我也希望千春的環評跟都計我希望因為有些涉及到環境部有些涉及到內政部也請經濟部因為竟然是主責機關啊能不能也協調溝通一下加快加快它的程序那你這個東西加快了後面的程序就整個會加快能不能盡量趕在明年的上半年來完成環評跟都計的程序"},{"start":10296.554,"end":10320.297,"text":"我們會朝這個目標來努力好不好我希望朝這個目標好不好因為還有整整一年的時間那其實環評如果多做一些溝通多做一些說明的話那競速協助是有可能加快的包括都計好不好那我們希望明年上半年把這些完成讓鄉親們早點感受到這個速度好不好感受到這個整個整體的速度好不好"},{"start":10320.957,"end":10343.253,"text":"好那另外還有包括甚至園區的核定設置我們都希望這些都配合能夠整個加快好那再來我們前幾天大概包括次長何次長跟林副市長也有對外說明了在明年的第二季要來啟動大概4到6月要來啟動協議架構程序部長這個確定了嗎"},{"start":10347.276,"end":10366.332,"text":"確定這個確定了所以明年的4月到6月要來啟動協議架構那我們希望這個協議架構的程序是能夠順利而且是快速的至少我也希望經濟部跟市府那邊把相關的整個配套措施把它做好讓"},{"start":10367.453,"end":10377.641,"text":"人民很快的能夠在4月份開始就能夠完成這個協議架構的程序一坪換一坪包括住商區的土地一坪換一坪包括"},{"start":10379.028,"end":10406.633,"text":"農業區土地換到高坪特定區甚至於有些若領現金的話那包括公保地的協議架構等等我們希望這些趕快來完成協議架構程序之後那後面還有甚至於完成之後還有很多要抽籤配利等等很多作業要做所以我們希望4到6月能夠完成這樣的一個協議架構程序部長這個應該可以在4到6月把它完成所以明年的上半年應該可以把"},{"start":10407.313,"end":10435.655,"text":"多數的協議架構把它做完成嘛明年上半年明年上半年就在六月把所有的這些協議架構完成那當然有些不願意協議架構那當然下一步再來想辦法了但是至少把有意願願意協議架構願意一坪換一坪願意領取現金願意換土地的我們盡速把它完成那讓他們可以正式的感受到這個遷村的程序啟動那協議架構完了之後那2027年"},{"start":10437.616,"end":10461.67,"text":"照我們的規劃應該是2027年正式來啟動正式的遷村是吧 部長是的 在2027年正式啟動所以等於是2026年的上半年完成了協議架構那在下半年會把其他土地的問題做一個初步的解決之後2027年就正式來啟動遷村那2029年來完成遷村這是經濟部目前的目標的方向嗎 是吧"},{"start":10463.104,"end":10482.038,"text":"目前暫定是這樣暫定這樣我希望大家來努力啦對因為這個真的拖很久了啦真的拖很久了我認為也不宜再拖了啦那協議加購完正式來啟動千春那也正式來這個完成千春我們希望2029年是一個"},{"start":10483.879,"end":10512.794,"text":"歡迎外星族的觀念就是說大家都是開開心那我也希望在這個過程中也跟部長反應就是說有任何只要當地市區的居民的一些權益我也希望多多給予照顧沒有人會希望離開自己的長期居住的家園但是因為那邊的空屋八百隻煙囪的包圍因為當年政府沒有作為那也為了國家國土的配置更有利我也希望這件事情經濟部門能夠善待當地的居民就是說"},{"start":10513.294,"end":10532.627,"text":"能夠給的盡量給啦就當然法律上可以給的空間因為我還是要再次強調沒有人願意簽的啦如果不是因為環境不好如果不是因為各方面的因素沒有人願意簽那在簽的過程中我也相信未來這件事情是可以創造出一個多贏的空間對國家是好 對人民是好對整個產業也是好的"},{"start":10532.887,"end":10552.489,"text":"那我希望我們朝著多營的空間來進行我也相信未來政府跟整個會在這邊獲得了更大的一個整體上更大的一個效益所以在這樣狀況下的時候就盡量能夠善待市區的人民當然如果說是其他的這個寄附在這邊或其他外來的這當然就"},{"start":10553.79,"end":10579.228,"text":"還好我覺得應該是可以的但是如果真正市區在那邊從小在那邊長大或者他們兩代三代都在這個地方的話那不要讓他們將來有一天離開了大林埔的時候流離失所甚至於他們條件是很苛刻的甚至於對他們來說將來是對政府有怨言的那我覺得這個是將來是會造成反對更多的後遺症我也希望部長在這個處理過程中給予更寬的條件"},{"start":10579.908,"end":10609.428,"text":"善待市居的居民真正住在这边的居民我认为其实符合公平争议也是让整件事情能够圆满一个关键因素好不好是的谢谢委员指导我想我们会在法的框架之内我们全力以赴好谢谢部长我想企业家出身的应该更能够感同身受我也相信能够创造多赢的空间多赢是很重要的让人民赢让国家赢让整个产业都赢大家都赢这件事情一定是做得到也需要花一点心力"},{"start":10609.848,"end":10633.296,"text":"那最后一点时间我再请教一下这一次的风灾之后山区有很多土石的坍塌等等那个很多的包括青枢的安全的这一块我也希望部长更加的重视了好不好特别是在跟山区里面的它很多的土石坍塌你看这个桥这个是在纳马下的一个桥那几乎是每次豪大雨几乎是"},{"start":10634.156,"end":10654.168,"text":"土石落到了幾乎是跟橋面但交通部已經要蓋新的橋了但是表示這邊的嚴重性我也希望經濟部跟交通部各部會通力來合作把山上的很多的土石盡量能夠紓盡下來能夠讓那個地方的淤積不要這麼嚴重因為每次都這麼嚴重的時候其實每次只要好大的颱風來就會造成重大影響"},{"start":10654.648,"end":10671.684,"text":"好不好這請部長再加速好不好加速重視啦那最後一個是原鄉這一次的部分因為很多的自來水好大雨中它自來水受到很多的影響那當然也有謝謝水利署啦也有給予支持的那我也希望除了地方的經費"},{"start":10672.825,"end":10693.121,"text":"中央有給了地方不足的部分中央能夠持續來支持啦中央持續來支持就對於三個原鄉的部分那我知道水利署其實是有這樣的法令可以來提供的啦那個錢都並不會太多但是對原鄉的原住民使用自來水就很重要我也希望部長來支持好不好"},{"start":10693.757,"end":10712.768,"text":"是啊 我們能夠做得到的我們都會做我知道這個部分在法的框架之內我們一定會建立我有問過水利署基本上是有條件只是有部長的承諾是大家會更加的放心我們大家來努力好 那另外中長期的部分現在因為工程會有已經復建的工程經費甚至我們這次也通過了特別條例"},{"start":10713.528,"end":10731.808,"text":"那特別條例裡面也會匡列很多經費進來我也希望未來的時候包括部長 包括署裡面也把這些經費匡進來好不好 給原鄉的三個原鄉區裡面能夠至少有基本的自來水使用啦這樣的匡進來的話才能夠加速它的一個施作 好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":10737.478,"end":10754.201,"text":"謝謝我們現在請張家俊委員做詢答張家俊委員張家俊委員不在現在請陳昌明委員做詢答陳昌明委員陳昌明委員不在現在請李坤成委員做詢答謝謝主席我們請部長"},{"start":10766.529,"end":10767.816,"text":"也請我們這個採訪組的這個邱署長"},{"start":10774.793,"end":10800.83,"text":"委員好部長好辛苦了這個請教一下這個部長還有署長我是問這個有關這個汽車關稅的問題那部長知道說現在在我們這一個台北港大概有三萬輛的這個進口車就只在那邊那就是因為關稅的問題就是說消費者會等想說這個等關稅確定之後是不是有便宜的進口車可以買那所以呢這個業者當然也賣不出去那我想請教一下目前我們的這個進口車的關稅是17.5%"},{"start":10803.692,"end":10815.809,"text":"那這個在談判的過程當中這個汽車關稅是一個非常重要的一個談判的議題那我想請教一下部長目前有關這個汽車關稅這一塊到底有沒有什麼比較具體的一個進程"},{"start":10817.063,"end":10836.255,"text":"報告委員我想因為關稅的談判現在還是在進行中我知道暫定的對所以這個進口的車的這個關稅目前還沒有還沒有確定對但是是會朝向要調降的方向來做談判的一個方向嗎"},{"start":10837.462,"end":10851.876,"text":"美国一定会要求我们往下降但是降到什么样的程度现在就是我们的谈判团队跟美国还在继续协商所以有没有可能降到0这个我不清楚因为我不是谈判团队"},{"start":10853.17,"end":10879.751,"text":"那你也是業者出身的啦那你也知道說這個在舊美國來講他是想有機會就會把關稅降到零嘛對不對這是一個參考詞啦那如果降到零的話有沒有想到說對我們產業的影響因為這個降到零就是一個最差的一個情況了嘛那降到零的話這個當然對於這個我們的這個台灣的這些要買車的人當然是一個好消息但是對於台灣的這些這個"},{"start":10881.397,"end":10909.447,"text":"这个零件车子零件的业者或整车业者当然会受到影响那有没有想到说会受到什么样的影响呢就国产汽车来讲我们大概就是如果进口车那关税是零或者是这个比较低的这个关税的时候那么会影响到台湾的可能就是汽车零组件还有在台湾制造的这个汽车嘛这个部分我们大概都有跟业者还继续在"},{"start":10910.734,"end":10923.678,"text":"在共同努力就是說有一個比較具體我問兩個比較具體的就好了就是說這個國產車自治率的一個條件然後還有這個國內無產制國內沒有產的這個零組件進口的關稅這個兩項這個兩項有沒有去討論我們都有討論"},{"start":10930.62,"end":10951.068,"text":"那有没有一个比较具体的我们现在是这样子就是我们的建议台湾的强项其实应该是在电子零组件上面所以我们其实都有建议这些在台湾有厂的这些所谓外籍的公司包括日本的包括韩国的那我们就建议他们能够是不是能够生产电动车"},{"start":10952.128,"end":10973.98,"text":"生产电动车因为电动车其实不是日本跟韩国这些公司的主力但是他的客户会要求电动车所以我们建议他是不是让在台湾的厂可以生产他全球的他们品牌的电动车他们是有在考虑但是他们必须要跟他的母厂母公司来协商"},{"start":10974.58,"end":10987.535,"text":"我想這個我們從這個今年的大概是7月吧7月的時候討論出來一個方向但是關稅有可能在譬如說9月10月就會決定了"},{"start":10989.125,"end":11013.863,"text":"所以你要轉型坐電動車那是一個比較long term的一個轉型的目標那我剛才講一個就是說我們有很多是屬於零組件進口就是零組件是台灣當然坐車但是有一些關鍵零組件還是從國外進口那這方面的話關稅有要調降嗎就是不然你台灣的國產車幾乎沒有什麼競爭力"},{"start":11015.509,"end":11022.248,"text":"我們國產車的部分我想這個國內我們可能會鼓勵太舊換新"},{"start":11024.432,"end":11050.336,"text":"因為台灣的這個超過20年的車有200萬台所以我們鼓勵他因為基於這個節能減碳所以我們也希望他能夠換一些這個耗能比較輕的車由國內的這些廠商他們來生產所以大概200萬台車可以在這幾年裡面讓他去轉型不是啊 那你怎麼害羞煥心你有什麼政策上面的誘因啊"},{"start":11051.414,"end":11052.825,"text":"我們這個可能會調降這個貨物稅"},{"start":11054.861,"end":11082.888,"text":"那你要問財政部啊這個不是只有你說我們意思就是說我跟那個委員你們有跟財政部有討論過了嗎我們當然是業者的意願確定了我們才會做這個財政部的溝通那有跟財政部先溝通過這個貨物稅的問題嗎這個部分在我們所謂的這個討論的過程裡面都有提過了那財政部的財政部的這一個財政部啦因為我自己在財委會啦財政部只要跟他講說要降稅他就跟你拼命啦"},{"start":11084.616,"end":11112.117,"text":"不过这个我想我们会基于国人的企业发展的这样的一个过程我想财政部应该会支持好那我再请问一下一个是这个法规的问题就是说现在我们的这个车子我们是采用这一个欧洲的这个检验的一个标准那如果说美国车子进来的话那怎么去做这一个标准的一个做一个调整它还是要通过我们的车车中心的检验"},{"start":11112.934,"end":11136.159,"text":"對啊但是規格不一樣啊它是一個是美國的一個是我們是採用歐洲的啊是不一樣的啊可以做correlation什麼意思可以做一些這個這個規格上面的一個比照現在有在處理這一塊嗎現在還沒有看到沒有那但是那但是美國車是有可能有需求我們就會一定會有這個需求啊因為接下來就是美國車會進來啦"},{"start":11137.435,"end":11157.135,"text":"但是我跟委員報告就是我們所了解就是數量款式都會增加市場上面大概你講的是美國牌的品牌的大車但我們所了解的有很多美國車會進來的倒是這個所謂日系韓系在美國製造的車"},{"start":11158.536,"end":11174.521,"text":"那規格是一樣的嗎規格應該是一樣的是一樣嗎是用台灣現在的這個這個歐洲的這個檢驗的規格嗎是嗎署長是嗎署長這個這個我想我們認為應該是啦沒有我一樣署長這個這個署長比較這個可能不是太嚴重的問題沒有我問一下署長那署長是嗎"},{"start":11183.617,"end":11212.597,"text":"因為美國車以前就都已經有進來的 並不是這次開放才進來的那在以前數量不多嘛那現在數量如果一下增加的話如果說需要進行一些法規的調適的話可能我們還要再跟交通部這邊再討論一下所以也都還沒有進行就對了這個你們可能也要開始要做進行因為我覺得這個是大概是在兩三個月大概就會確定的事情那我最後再問一下部長就是說因為如果"},{"start":11213.257,"end":11236.457,"text":"你開放這一個美國車關稅是零的話那其他的其他的歐洲的車他會不會比照要求要辦理我們跟美國的談判就台灣跟美國之間的關稅關係對啊那他就說那美國車就降了那基於這一個這一個比如說WTO的精神這個不能獨厚美國他其他車也要降其他這個歐洲進口車也要降會不會"},{"start":11239.434,"end":11264.255,"text":"理論上這個應該會有這樣的一個要求啦對啊但是我們的原則現在還是只跟美國談是啊 那我是說因為現在美國當然是跟美國談那我是說會不會有其他的這個歐洲的那邊的車子也會有要求也會有相同的這個一些要求啊據WTO他們可能會要求但是我們現在那我們有做什麼樣的因應嗎我們還要再評論啦不是啊 這個都是近這兩個月會發生的事情耶"},{"start":11266.076,"end":11281.674,"text":"但是因为我们现在在看就是看这个未来的变化因为这一系数变跟美国谈的现在还没有谈定那其他的国家跟美国很多还是没有谈定所以没有谈定的过程里面这个变数太多了"},{"start":11282.194,"end":11301.127,"text":"所以我們現在先針對美國這個先造成的影響以後其他的部分是穩定的可是你們要去預想啊就是說我剛才講那幾個那應該都是要去預想就是說好像關稅就是有可能是0那如果關稅0的話那對於台灣的這個國產車業者會造成什麼樣的影響那我剛才講的就是說那有一些比較關鍵的一些"},{"start":11301.827,"end":11327.093,"text":"一些零組件要進來 那這個關稅是不是要做調整那或是說這一個你剛才講的 你希望說鼓勵台灣的這個車子能夠 車主能夠胎舊換新然後除了這個貨物稅上面給予一些減免之外 還有什麼要去做的然後不然的話 對於台灣的這些這個國產車的這些廠商來講做零件的廠商來講 會受到很大影響 接下來就是會變成"},{"start":11328.174,"end":11335.925,"text":"失業的人口這個不是就是一連串會延續發生的嗎是 謝謝委員知道我們都會依據國際實務跟規定來辦理"},{"start":11338.516,"end":11361.414,"text":"好啦我的意思是說這個雖然談判在進行當中但是因為現在已經8月快8月底了我覺得大概在兩個月大概會確定也不可能一直懸在那邊沒辦法確定但是汽車關稅的談判一定是其中一個沒有辦法把我們的關稅談好的一個其中一個蠻重要的一個因素在所以這個東西搞不好已經談好了也不一定"},{"start":11363.075,"end":11390.681,"text":"這個對業者來講當然是希望說能夠買到便宜的車但是卡在那邊不上不下你如果早點決定了其實業者跟這個買車的人他們都有一個盤算在那邊現在對業者來講其實最擔心就是你懸而不決一直卡在那邊其實對業者來講才是一個最大的一個心理或是經濟上面的一個負擔謝謝是 謝謝委員好 謝謝現在請賴世保委員做詢答"},{"start":11399.805,"end":11403.264,"text":"謝謝主席 繼各位先進有請經濟部的郭部長郭部長"},{"start":11411.499,"end":11434.982,"text":"委員好部長你好現在今天我想比較大的外面比較大討論的就是說美國政府你看商業部長盧克尼克特別提到了那麼有考慮有考慮就是仿照說就是這個補貼他對晶片用晶片法案裡面補貼"},{"start":11437.389,"end":11464.828,"text":"這個金額把它換股權所以它原來就已經對英特爾這樣就是取了英特爾1818非常多變成最大股東我看了一下一些相關的資料它在這個消息出來之後英特爾的股價是下跌的那今天一樣今天的消息出來了說這個也是要川普政府要準備要對台積電的補助"},{"start":11467.164,"end":11490.832,"text":"60億美金要把它變成一個股東結果變成是股市也是下跌的你要不要雖然我知道你已經講了不過你說這個假設性什麼之類的台積電假設性你要不要從你一個經濟部長你也是業者出身來怎麼看說政府的補助給企業變成持股對企業什麼影響這個有點像中國的"},{"start":11496.634,"end":11521.021,"text":"過去他的企業民進國退的時段到後來最近的國進民退大概都是有這樣的一個痕跡在我們在看說政府要對企業補助美國剛開始是反對中國這樣的模式"},{"start":11522.52,"end":11541.775,"text":"但是他覺得說中國那個模式可能不會讓這個企業倒所以他現在呢就是說我既然要補助你那我要一點股份我要股份就扮演股東的角色所以我想這個就這個這個business model來看的話這倒是一個我們一個比較新的可以討論的這個部分"},{"start":11543.857,"end":11564.672,"text":"那就台灣來講他可能也有可能我想也有新聞在講說那他對英特爾是這樣的話那麼對台積電的這個補貼是不是也會要求入股對環球晶的補貼是不是也會要求入股這個我想我們還要跟業者討論我不太清楚這個業者的反應會怎麼樣你剛剛提到一個很重要的在過去"},{"start":11567.605,"end":11589.23,"text":"我想你也是企業界老闆而且你這方面來講你應該都是很深入的你講到一個東西叫做民退國進 國退民進的事情就原來講國營企業民營化是世界的潮流全球化的潮流是這樣子的民營化怎麼樣把國家的企業特別是貫穿國家"},{"start":11590.993,"end":11603.648,"text":"中國大陸也好啦 蘇聯也好啦等等共產國家都是國營事業國營事業變成民營化來造就一波的整個國家的一個經濟的火力出來了那現在呢 現在又倒回去了"},{"start":11604.781,"end":11631.435,"text":"所以你剛講的一句很有意思你說這個美國是跟中國大陸跑一樣中國也是目前有一點這個味道變成是民退國進就國家的原來補貼的變成一個要投資的這個我就在請教你了台積電可不可以跟他說NO如果這樣66億美金的補貼我不要了我不要了你這樣子這樣"},{"start":11633.922,"end":11656.101,"text":"硬來的我不要了可以不可以這個我想我要去請教台積電我不能夠帶台積電回答這個問題台積電政府有股份我們的國發基金股份有6%之多對 但是我們只有一席董事我們只有一席董事但是你知道台積電現在有幾席董事"},{"start":11657.185,"end":11673.198,"text":"有幾席的董事台積電現在就是一般的這個名股大概是五席嘛對 有幾席的董事你知道嗎 其他大概是獨立董事他獨立董事有人講六席來 人講七席啊除了林全之外其他都是外籍人士"},{"start":11674.255,"end":11691.293,"text":"其他都是美國人跟英國人就基本上是美國人所以我會擔心的一點是那這樣一來的話美國川普可能不是只有說我持股而已喔我要一起懂事請問台積電有沒有人力所弄"},{"start":11692.464,"end":11713.884,"text":"我同意委員的這個推論他有到那個股份一定可以選擇一個董事那他選擇董事就會去干預這個公司的所有的運作那他補助的時候是沒有辦法干預對那只有他進入董事會才會去干預這個我想委員的指教是非常正確的"},{"start":11715.481,"end":11744.376,"text":"但是在台灣台積電這個案例我想委員所擔心我們也很擔心不過他如果要這樣的話要經過我們投審會美國要經過投審會請問台積電去美國投資1000億有沒有經過投審會現在經過沒有到現在為止經過沒有他現在還沒有錢還沒有嘛到現在還沒有嘛所以等於說美國好那你講到一個重點說美國川普他如果要硬來"},{"start":11745.882,"end":11764.351,"text":"印象要經過我們同意當然是託審會啊要經過我們同意嘛 對不對要經過我們同意嘛所以跟我們好好談一談啦老實講這也是一個好的一個機會啦但是我還是要講"},{"start":11765.592,"end":11789.97,"text":"原來晶片法案不是這樣子啊美國晶片法案沒有這一條啊沒有這個option啊說我可以印來的突然怎麼權力這麼大一下子說要印來印上你以前企業界老闆是政府給你補貼20億新台幣然後突然說我要轉成持股你敢同意 請問你如果郭董事長你敢同意"},{"start":11791.527,"end":11815.232,"text":"同意他 我們當然同意是要看他進入以後對我們有沒有什麼當然有干預 怎麼沒有呢如果沒有加分效果的話我們當然不會同意什麼叫沒有加分現在好了 因為我時間差不多到了我不用扯太久 我是跟你講如此一來 他有機會因為他66億美金不算少數他的資本額多少台積電資本額"},{"start":11819.31,"end":11836.622,"text":"資本額大概2500億左右66億美金就是有一不少錢那它一來的話可能會相當大的一個比重就跟英特爾一樣取得英特爾的所以它來的話就變成是"},{"start":11837.503,"end":11864.833,"text":"所以倒貼了台積電變美積電這沒什麼錯就變這個樣子了那你搖頭你要不要解釋一下你到底報告委員我想六十六億我們要看它在市場裡面可以買到我們多少的股票多少的股權所以這個不是說六十六億跟我的資產來衡量所以這個我想都可以談如果它硬要加入我們的股份那當然還是可以談"},{"start":11867.585,"end":11892.579,"text":"我給你一個數字了外資佔有台積電73%了市值大概一兆美金左右了所以66億除以它大概6.6%6.6%是很大的share以台積電這麼股權這麼分散的一個公司來講是相當高的比例了"},{"start":11894.64,"end":11916.57,"text":"所以他取得一席都是不困難的馬上進來了所以變成是以後變國運事業了以後在川普看上的半導體的重要的chip晶片的廠就是變成美國的國運事業了變這個樣子不過我想報告委員我想我們要看他這個投資是策略投資還是財務投資"},{"start":11919.589,"end":11934.265,"text":"當然是策略投資啊那個商務部長講清楚了他的目標他講得很好聽他說讓美國人納稅人的錢他能夠得到一些報酬這個話是平八穩可是問題是你事先沒有這樣講"},{"start":11935.706,"end":11951.342,"text":"事先沒有這樣講事先就是他的金邊法案就是給錢就給錢補助你就補助你但是美國是一個法治的國家那我想我們跟他第二的條件就像委員所指教的就是沒有這個條件當然我們可以拒絕"},{"start":11952.318,"end":11966.653,"text":"可以拒絕了好那來投審會啊他如果真的變成這個台積電股東要經過我們投審會就這個意思嗎好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢答中午不休息延長開會時間"},{"start":11981.273,"end":11996.858,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請郭部長郭部長委員好部長從8月1號這個20%的這個關稅來我想現在所有的產業光萬的居多"},{"start":12005.171,"end":12032.437,"text":"那大家也都還在期待說我們對外宣示的這個暫時性關稅那到最後的一個談判結果那部長如果你這樣來判斷的話這個暫時性關稅那跟美國繼續談判這段時間差不多會多久以我們所收集的情報對台灣的關稅應該跟美國主要要談跟中國的關稅"},{"start":12034.345,"end":12060.396,"text":"有一些關聯性存在跟中國還沒有談完嘛美國跟中國還沒有談嘛所以跟中國當然是一個很重要的一個節點那台灣跟中國你意思說會受到干擾我們會受到中國的干擾我們倒是認為啦現在的20%關稅再往下走往下走是我們的目標啦"},{"start":12061.431,"end":12089.166,"text":"當然啦 大家都是這樣期待繼續要往下走但是美國希望對中國課的是比較高的稅然後會用台灣來做一個衡量的基準也有這麼樣的一個說法所以部長也這樣說有一些學者也做這樣的討論所以台灣有可能真正的關稅定案要在美國跟中國談完"},{"start":12090.669,"end":12099.434,"text":"有可能 我们认为我也访谈了很多的业者对也访谈了很多的这个智库他们都"},{"start":12100.686,"end":12130.12,"text":"建议说台湾不要这么快就敲定当然如果一开始就能够敲定到我们理想的关税譬如说我们现在大家都希望仿造日本韩国然后没有天花板就是有天花板不要叠加走向15%然后我们有同等的如果我们现在谈可以一下子谈到这个点我觉得这个是我们大家乐见的但是如果"},{"start":12131.513,"end":12154.072,"text":"不是這樣的一個情形的話那很多的自顧的評斷就是認為說美國跟中國談定了以後我們會比較好談對 這是一個談判的一個策略的運用所以部長你會這樣做判斷基本上我認為這個可能性是有的所以你剛剛這樣講的基本上"},{"start":12155.149,"end":12180.525,"text":"我是接受会有这样的一个可能但是这一个的结果就会变成说我刚刚说产业在观望这个观望期间就会变得更久我们在这个产业观望的这段期间里面我们都做出几个solution对做出几个方式希望帮助这个产业能够度过这一阵比较尴尬的期间对"},{"start":12180.905,"end":12205.661,"text":"那我大概访谈了非常多的工协会也访谈很多的厂商他们倒是对关税这个20加N这个命题不是那么当然是很重要但是他们更重要的是汇率的汇率因为他讲说美国大概占他可能50% 30% 40%但是汇率如果不稳定"},{"start":12206.547,"end":12217.575,"text":"他是100%所以我们现在早是重点上面就短期里面我们希望在关税你就暂时用20加n的这样的一个条件"},{"start":12218.601,"end":12245.995,"text":"去努力那是我減少那個匯率的變數-減少匯率的變數-不就你在說是開始很多抽象的形象因為對他們來說競爭條件沒有改變嘛除了日韓比我們好其他我們主要競爭國家如果是在一些傳統產業可能像泰國啦 越南啦競爭改變不大嘛因為他們的關稅頂多比我們少個1%不然就是一樣像印度是還多我們5%"},{"start":12246.815,"end":12265.693,"text":"所以競爭不變的情況之下匯率就是的漲跟跌就是直接的硬傷所以這個是確實有這樣的一個狀況但是產業現在還有的面對的一個課題就是說因為台灣的產業的佈局過去就是走全世界了"},{"start":12266.656,"end":12281.485,"text":"過去臺灣產業我們臺灣人的很高造型力啊已經都在全世界佈局了所以臺灣產業在全世界佈局的時候他一樣會有面對說每一個國家跟美國的狀況不同然後影響他接下來的佈局"},{"start":12282.205,"end":12302.477,"text":"所以我现在是说部长那你有再进一步的跟产业聊说好那如果现在台湾的20加N那跟东南亚甚至全世界的国家那这一些产业他们未来会改变他们的布局模式吗是 报告委员我们大概有三个措施第一个就是给金融支持"},{"start":12303.345,"end":12322.816,"text":"金融你可能要贷款贷款往后延这个我们做金融师第二个升级转型升级转型第一个我们增加它的这个升级的条件利用AI应用帮助它在制造的时候升级第二个利用节能减碳降低它的操作成本"},{"start":12323.817,"end":12344.458,"text":"第三个帮助他供购一些对这个是在国内他们的升级国内国内但是最重要是开拓市场对开拓美国以外的市场包括我们如何在印度如何在中东如何在东南亚把这个新的市场开拓出来那这个我们也编了"},{"start":12345.58,"end":12359.879,"text":"這個比較大的這個開拓市長的費用所以總統有特別指示總統跟院長在這一期我們在115年就是說今後的這個所有的費用裡面這個加很大錢加很大然後這個"},{"start":12361.519,"end":12379.832,"text":"让我们在开拓市场上面能够更大的发挥OK就是台湾的在地产业开拓市场美国以外的市场是那部长那你判断会不会有产业他们因为关税的这一个变数存在让他考虑他要到美国设厂"},{"start":12380.851,"end":12408.512,"text":"考慮直接因為他可能原本就有在美國就已經有公司了現在他進一步的在美國乾脆直接用部分的產業鏈在美國那以後要銷售美國的就直接在美國會不會有這樣的公司存在報告委員現在這個有兩個方向第一個就是說我們經濟部本來就有在為這個國內的廠商拓展海外所以我們在去年設了捷克的這個貿易投資貿易中心對"},{"start":12409.212,"end":12436.892,"text":"然后我们在今年的4月在福冈日本福冈这个月上个礼拜我们在Dallas也设了这个美国投资贸易中心这个贸易中心就是帮助我们国内厂商先进入到这个市场所以我们会在自由贸易港区里面设置这个所谓的仓储跟配送的这个服务让它减少因为我们可以帮它并贵各方面部长这个厂商是有的哦"},{"start":12437.452,"end":12464.269,"text":"我相信你這樣講我們鼓勵過去台灣在做鋼鋁的他們因為美國跟他們科很重的稅嘛所以事實上有一些鋼鐵公司他們早就在美國設廠了沒錯 我們會買通路我會鼓勵廠商他們去經營通路我們是協助他找到美國的通路商然後我們請他們能夠M&A去好 部長"},{"start":12465.322,"end":12490.603,"text":"台灣的民間的這個生命力很強所以他們知道在美國的關稅之下他們要做什麼產業的佈局這個我們對民間投資有信心那我們也知道說台灣國內的部分我們協助他們拓展國內市場但是我覺得經濟部現在有一件事是你們要協助我們接下來在跟美國的談判的一個團隊我們要做什麼事就是說如果台灣"},{"start":12491.804,"end":12506.087,"text":"未來美國會不會要求類似日本 類似韓國要求台灣也是要投資美國這一段很有可能會發生 不能排除可以預期 對不對好 既然這件事是可以預期的"},{"start":12506.874,"end":12531.653,"text":"那現在台灣要投資美國的原本他們的計畫有投資美國的事實上經濟部現在應該要先把它先做一個數字的統計起來這些統計的數字咧都是未來我們一旦台灣是需要面對美國川普開出條件的時候這些都是我們的籌碼所以我覺得這件事經濟部可以開始去著手"},{"start":12532.273,"end":12556.631,"text":"雖然現在還沒有看到條件 但是你怎麼開始去判證啊這就是我們國內的理論 如何在這一次跟川普的談判也許跟川普的談判 因為剛剛講了還有中國因素 這個時間我們沒辦法預測 有可能會比想像的還要久一點的時間那我們就有這個時間 先把台灣投資美國這件事情先從這個理念出來"},{"start":12558.032,"end":12578.797,"text":"這些受理越漂亮的話基本上我們如果期待這些理財都被他花好熱愛這些都是我們最好的籌碼民間都是台灣所有的台灣人都是我們談判的一個最好的一個背景是不是 部長這個委員講得非常正確這個我們都在進行中好 那要繼續努力是 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":12581.428,"end":12608.824,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答謝謝主席是不是請經濟部郭部長郭部長"},{"start":12619.142,"end":12624.028,"text":"今天是中小企業怎麼去協助度過多重的危機"},{"start":12625.407,"end":12654.74,"text":"包括當然是天災也包括整體國際大環境的變化跟挑戰包括大概我認為有三大挑戰中小企業大部分都是傳統產業比較多傳統產業集中也就中南部比較多所以又受到風災然後又遇到國際大環境經濟情勢的變化包括這個美國關稅的問題現在還是沒有最終的這個答案那"},{"start":12655.729,"end":12676.224,"text":"牽涉到包括這個鋼鋁我們這個232條款裡面鋼鋁是50%對不對有用鋼鋁塑造影響的產業包括這個工具機的包括螺絲扣件等等對不對所以美國的關稅是一個整體經營環境的挑戰之一之二就是我們匯率問題我們升值的幅度高於日韓中"},{"start":12679.247,"end":12699.173,"text":"對匯率是支柱必較匯率的敏感度 傳統產業敏感度相對的避險也比較不足避險能力也比較不足也沒有專業的人力去做避險的工作所以他們對匯率的敏感度很強第三個 中國的惡性的競爭"},{"start":12701.673,"end":12729.271,"text":"中國不管是從過去的面板到石化到自行車等等都是用同樣的模式用國家資本介入去取得你的這個市佔率甚至牽連到成熟製程還好我們新興製程還保持一定的優勢成熟製程他們再過幾年他們市佔率就不到50%了這種情況包括傳統產業包括這個高科技產業成熟製程他都用同樣的模式"},{"start":12730.464,"end":12754.224,"text":"去取得它的供应链取得这个影响力整个产业链的影响力所以我们传统产业面临到这三种国际环境的变化中国的公市 汇率 然后关税然后加上热金天灾中小企业是不是我认为这二十几年来最艰苦的阶段部长你同意吗"},{"start":12755.957,"end":12781.932,"text":"確實如委員指教的部分確實現在的中小企業需要經濟部大力的協作跟輔助這不是一般就是小感冒或者是不舒服頭痛而已我覺得是一個非常重大的一個疾病或者是一個重大的挑戰如果沒有處理好會危及到產業的生存"},{"start":12783.772,"end":12811.684,"text":"所以我們必須要嚴肅地面對這個挑戰一項一項來拆解當然天災的部分我們有這個資料重建條例來處理但是匯率這個匯率我們可以匯率跟關稅可超支在我嗎報告委員我個人認為就我過去的經驗來看匯率是可以在某一個部分某一個狀況之下可超支在幾"},{"start":12813.002,"end":12832.815,"text":"就是我们用政策可以去做调控汇率我们是可以处理关税是非可控的关税是非可控的超市在它但是现在我们坦白讲我们已经知道暂定的关税是20加N所以就这样的一个情况之下我们先面对这个最坏的状况我们在谈只有更好不会更差"},{"start":12833.959,"end":12859.21,"text":"所以就20加恩的时候现在经济部就就20加恩这样的情况之下我们如何协助这一些中小企业他们能够面对这样的一个困境所以我们第一个先解决汇率的问题所以汇率你觉得到哪一种汇率水准才是符合业界的期待我们现在的汇率我们大概中小企业他们比较担心的是日本跟韩国"},{"start":12860.279,"end":12888.137,"text":"所以我們的匯率不是只有自己盯美國而是要去考慮到整個動態環境您也是央行理事對不對我是央行理事對啊 你們在這個相關的匯率討論的時候也可以跟這個楊總裁建議我有 我會跟那個中央銀行的總裁我們會來討論怎麼樣子讓到未來其實我跟委員報告我們所了解的這是關稅的部分"},{"start":12889.246,"end":12917.048,"text":"应该会在未来三个月里面谈完谈完就是有一个最终的一个关税税率最终的对 但是呢这个会影响的波廊是比较好的结果大概六个月所以我们现在也在讨论怎么样子让台湾的汇率从现在一直到农历年前可以是稳定的不会vibration太大的这样子的话我们台湾的企业韧性是非常的强从目前的汇率可以吗"},{"start":12917.967,"end":12929.995,"text":"你覺得維持在目前的匯率水準現在30.23所以現在的匯率應該是業者來講說是不是到31到32一般來講就過去6年過去6年的平均值是31"},{"start":12938.447,"end":12963.073,"text":"所以應該如果回到過去6年平均的這個水平會比較好那又回到您所說的這是可操之在我的是可操之在央行的相關的匯率政策所以你做央行我們不能操縱匯率報告委員你可以做一個宏觀調控不是操縱宏觀調控操縱跟宏觀調控是不一樣謝謝委員的指教這個部分"},{"start":12964.884,"end":12987.256,"text":"因為您說是31是比較合理我們來努力我們往最棒的狀況去調整這個市場裡面我們比較怕的是突應跟預期心理因為我們在上半年我們其實出差蠻多的所以這個會有人預期說那你這樣的這個要換你台幣就會升值那大家如果說讓那個"},{"start":12990.56,"end":13018.88,"text":"大家都都短暫的 怕它崩掉所以我剛綜合一下關稅在六個月之內 三個月之內會有一個最終的稅率出來然後我們希望在未來六個月這個我們的匯率維持一定的水準維持有競爭力的水準這個關一定可以過 那我們目標是到三十一就是過去六年的平均稅率這是我們最棒的狀況嘛好 那另外一個中國的這個"},{"start":13022.175,"end":13040.109,"text":"他們的這個競爭中國用所有的方式用在石化用這個面板等等對這個相關螺絲擴建也是如此過去螺絲擴建台灣不用說什麼螺絲擴建過去是全球第三名"},{"start":13045.626,"end":13057.298,"text":"中國又用那種搶占你低價國家資本介入搶占你市占率的方式讓你的獲利減少讓你的成本增加加上我們國際環境的變化所以我們對傳統產業"},{"start":13060.35,"end":13069.642,"text":"有沒有在政策上強烈的支持讓他們成本能夠降低讓他們在國際市場上有更多的市場機會或者維持相當的競爭力"},{"start":13072.318,"end":13089.7,"text":"我觉得对金属扣件要有一个专章要有一个专章然后金属扣件因为每个产业面对的问题不见相同所以专章就是既然对金属扣件我们有很多具体的很具体的做法让这些产业能够度过这三重的挑战跟危机"},{"start":13090.612,"end":13110.813,"text":"报告委员我们都有方法包括在国内我们如果帮助国内的厂商降低它的成本利用AI的这个操作第二个透过Exco能够太旧换新它的设备然后节能减碳第三个我帮它统筹材料"},{"start":13111.474,"end":13126.854,"text":"帮他能够降低成本这个已经上路了吗上路上路上路然后在美国在美国的市场我们在搜寻美国墙的这个通路然后协助国内的厂商可以进入那个通路"},{"start":13127.668,"end":13143.952,"text":"我覺得這樣子就是面對中國的這個競爭惡性競爭不管是成熟製程或者傳統產業我們能不能比如說成熟製程部分禁止國內的半導體跟中國投片"},{"start":13146.365,"end":13172.41,"text":"你要跟國內投片不要跟中國 不用中芯國際那些禁止或者你要限制它投片的比例同樣的我們的這個公共工程是不是可以禁止使用這個中國製的相關的擴建產品零件公共工程禁止使用中國的商品這個我們做得到擴大到所有產業呢一樣"},{"start":13173.737,"end":13185.486,"text":"所以我們就是禁止中國人我們要用本國的本國的不可以進來啦現在的規定就是不可以進來啦中國的中國的喔那食產地呢食產地抓到就抬頭抓到就抬頭抓到喔第一遍60萬啦"},{"start":13193.496,"end":13207.189,"text":"第二邊三百萬 第三邊就吊銷執照就說那些要留在臺灣 不能公共工程或是大型企業那些工廠都用臺灣借 臺灣本土的金屬擴建嘛一定要你要防範這些稀產地 為中國進來"},{"start":13212.693,"end":13234.624,"text":"這個我們為什麼會在這一次的這個特別是在海防跟國防上面編列1500億就是禁止他能夠走私起產地那這樣我就稍微放稍微比較放心另外就是成熟製程能不能限制他去跟這個中國以中國國家資本為主的這些扶植起來的這個半導體的成熟製程去投片"},{"start":13234.864,"end":13259.484,"text":"我们现在还是这样我跟委员报告在改变那个consumer的产品是没有意义的你必须要去做teleman不然它市占率已经超过百分之五十我们那个市占率小的东西就没钱了我们要去做有钱的生意先不做有钱的生意有钱的生意就是先进制程成熟制程就拼不赢了现在是这样我举一个数字给你听成熟制程我们照样可以teleman"},{"start":13260.525,"end":13279.392,"text":"我覺得數字給你聽美國三分之二的科技廠商有跟中國投片三分之二有跟中國投片但是整個投片的比率佔百分之十二而已他在美國 他在中國投片然後看的是中國的市場"},{"start":13280.933,"end":13288.578,"text":"他看的是中國的市場不會影響到外部的市場我們看的是中國以外的市場因為中國的市場不賺錢所以政府要補助他"},{"start":13293.496,"end":13311.313,"text":"境外步骤一样他内卷的很厉害其实中国的而且现在中国这两年去年跟今年增加的四十几个Fab其实都没有竞争力的他内部竞争很厉害是他们中国国内的事情但是他内部竞争也会影响到这个外部的环境对"},{"start":13311.813,"end":13328.209,"text":"你放心啦我是很担心未来啊我们这个成熟市场就像现在的石化过去的这个面板啊受到中国的红色供应链的这个侵袭啊因为半导体的变半导体的更新技术的更新"},{"start":13329.23,"end":13355.513,"text":"两年就是一个世代那对这成熟制程也是一样它那里面能够赚钱的部分其实很少所以您认为说我们的半导体成熟制程在未来一段时间还是维持一定的优势我们当然有竞争优势因为特别是在特别是20奈米以下的14 12 17这四个制程里面中国没有办法做到有办法做到但是量率非常低"},{"start":13356.374,"end":13385.664,"text":"但是台湾呢这个地方做很好的是台积电但台积电现在所有的人都shift到532 1.8所以它可以让出这个我刚才讲的1024 17这四个阶段的这个制程比如说给它的兄弟公司世界先进或者其他的华邦这个我们就可以那如果28奈米的呢28奈米的呢28奈米的可以放弃啦没弹的啊做那样啊"},{"start":13387.837,"end":13410.226,"text":"但是國內也有很多生產啊 國內也有很多生產啊沒有啦我們要做那個會斷的 我們不能做那個就不會斷的生意所以這個說來話長但是因為實業限制 我有一向都很損失的這個我可以跟委員私底下報告因為這方面是 這方面真的是我的專業啦好 改天再跟你請教沒有沒有 不敢謝謝委員"},{"start":13414.892,"end":13443.509,"text":"好 謝謝現在登記發言委員除不在場外其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員張家俊 何新淳 陳超明所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完畢 現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16877","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16877","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c83a07a3e0006e9dca3bf586b49d470b112bf0b47f4e58e3f16985c2b92a04265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：（上午）\n邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部就「就業服務法第46條，80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免巴氏量表上路，對重症家庭的衝擊與配套措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（下午1時30分）\n繼續審查\n一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。\n【逐條討論】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-20T08:31:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-20T17:17:00+08:00","duration":31556,"影片長度":"08:45:56","委員發言時間":"08:31:04 - 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聘僱外籍看護工並經總統於114年"},{"start":1999.956,"end":2020.025,"text":"1月20日公布那依內政部與衛生福利部113年的數統計數據顯示我國80歲以上的人口約有91萬人扣除4.6萬人入住長照機構26.9萬人使用長照2.0那6.5萬人已聘僱外籍看護工那衛生能健康人口約53萬人"},{"start":2022.405,"end":2039.193,"text":"在新法上路後即符合聘僱資格而70到79歲罹患二期以上癌症也約有12.5萬人預估在新法實施後將增加約10萬名的家庭看護工的需求自新法通過以來陸續有重症失能的家庭反應"},{"start":2040.197,"end":2069.073,"text":"可能會遭遇到這個器重則輕的現象而終極重症家庭聘僱移工的權益所以舊福法是6條114年1月20號修正公佈後本部及研擬相關法規命令人力經費以及資訊系統和配套措施那過去6個月期間與衛福部專業醫學會以及利害關係團體等密集討論三項配套執法已經於7月底發布8月1日實施那未有拖延"},{"start":2070.134,"end":2099.654,"text":"新法上路後這些真正需要照顧的重症家庭會變得更不容易找到或留住看護工所以為了降低修法對重症家庭衝擊 勞動部及衛福部在行政程序上面推動六大配套措施來因應包括輕重分流重症優先擴大重症多元免貧資格重症家庭國內承接最優先還有協調移工來源國增加量能確保品質還有補足第一線執行人力及擴編預算支持看護家庭"},{"start":2100.394,"end":2125.525,"text":"不過即便這六大配套措施的實施我們也是能夠只能夠減輕一些影響可能還是沒有辦法完全避免這個終身家庭所受到的衝擊這個問題但勞動部會與衛福部盡力的就行政部門所能來協助終身家庭的照顧權益以上報告敬請各位委員指教並祝主席各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝謝謝黃部長報告"},{"start":2129.506,"end":2152.261,"text":"再過來我們請衛生福利部理事長報告理事長請主席各位委員女士先生大家早安大家好今天大院第11屆第三期未還委員會召開全體委員會議本部"},{"start":2153.447,"end":2181.586,"text":"呈邀列席報告深感榮幸知就就業服務法第46條80歲以上長者聘請外籍看護免八十兩票上路對中正家庭的衝擊與配套措施來提出本部的專題報告敬請參與書面報告那麼以下向各位委員來摺要說明首先針對就服務法第46條修正條文此法於8月1號上路勞動部推估國內將至少增加10萬人申請聘僱外刊"},{"start":2183.287,"end":2201.518,"text":"協同本部共商配套 透過剛剛洪部長也一再重申我們透過輕重分流 重症優先以及聘僱外勘 空窗期使用長照服務等努力以希望來盡力降低修法對於重症家庭之衝擊"},{"start":2203.479,"end":2231.974,"text":"針對有醫療診斷或長照服務使用證明的9類重症案件我們來優先審查原則上以一天內完成本國照服員推介並且審查完畢為目標並且也提供國內長照資源來協助重症家庭度過等待外刊到任期間的照顧空窗期其次本部也積極引導聘僱外刊家庭使用多元長照服務"},{"start":2232.734,"end":2259.975,"text":"如果遇到等待外刊的空窗集也可以使用所有的长照服务为了提升聘雇外刊家庭使用长照服务的竞变性那么本部也责成外刊生成人员转介照管中心来进行相关评估符合长照需要等级二级以上者可以使用长照专业服务交通接送 辅具以及居家无障碍环境改善等等服务还有传席服务"},{"start":2260.851,"end":2274.93,"text":"另外民眾如果有外勘還未到任之前轉換僱主外勘失聯或返鄉等等照顧空窗期也適宏被看護者名下未聘有外勘者也可以申請包括"},{"start":2275.951,"end":2302.049,"text":"照顾服务的所有的长照服务以纾解外勘空窗期间的照顾压力再者自114年9月1号起放宽聘雇外勘家庭在原核定制照顾及专业服务额度下可以使用日间照顾家庭托雇服务促进个案参与一对多的社区照顾服务并且提升被照顾者社会的参与以及互动"},{"start":2303.308,"end":2319.235,"text":"那么我们也针对80岁以上未失能长者或未失能知失智症者我们鼓励我们的长者多使用各类型的据点包括社区照顾光环据点巷弄长照站或者失智社区服务据点以达到"},{"start":2320.738,"end":2340.937,"text":"預防以及延緩失能失智健康老化以及活躍老化的目的最後本部也積極督請各地方政府來扶植各類的社區據點以及各種長照機構的資源建置並且導入智慧科技照顧以減輕長照人員以及家庭主要照顧者的照顧負荷"},{"start":2341.758,"end":2364.696,"text":"提升服務品質並且增加服務的競變性並且也將持續配合勞動部來監測各類申請案件時的時效跟變動情形以上為本部針對本次專題報告所提出的簡要說明再次來感謝各位委員的指教以及監督那麼在此敬日謝辰並期各位委員繼續予以支持 謝謝"},{"start":2366.474,"end":2380.571,"text":"好謝謝理事長的報告那再次確認有關本次會議各項書面紀錄均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答座以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘 內席委員4加1分鐘"},{"start":2384.435,"end":2399.709,"text":"10點30分截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭智委員發言謝謝主席 有請部長洪部長 請洪部長"},{"start":2419.375,"end":2434.169,"text":"陳委員好 部長早 久違了請問去年年底 那我們就通過了這個立法一三讀通過就業服務法的修法 那放寬了80歲及癌症二期以上不要經過這個80量表的評估 可以聘僱外籍看護"},{"start":2435.91,"end":2457.534,"text":"當時勞動部說 外籍看護來源不足 恐會造成排擠還有重症家庭請不到人 長照體系崩壞請問部長 既然這個修法影響這麼大 你們也覺得至愛難行那為什麼庭審院不提復印呢 你們有提復印嗎在這個案子沒有提復印你沒有提復印這麼至愛難行 你沒有提復印"},{"start":2462.165,"end":2470.991,"text":"那可見你們心裡知道嘛就是說80兩百的確造成很多人的困擾而且整個民意是趨向如此嘛所以你們沒有提富裕是這樣嗎"},{"start":2471.894,"end":2495.215,"text":"那個跟陳委員說明第一個當時在修法通過以後我們就判斷那我們是願意來進行配套的準備用配套的準備來盡力的降低可能會造成的衝擊跟影響因為前後經過兩位部長大家都說這個非常至暗難行我想說至暗難行你們就來複譽複譽就是你們也常規做的"},{"start":2497.677,"end":2513.849,"text":"我們的確認為他會有一些衝擊那這些衝擊 勞動部願意來規劃配套來去降盡力的降低這些衝擊我想請教你7月6大罷免前一天你發了一篇文指責在野黨通過許多爭議的法案包括"},{"start":2514.77,"end":2534.675,"text":"救福法80歲免巴士量表的這個法案你說這是爭議法案你說這些法案有一套操作模式快速過水市的初委員會跳過韓院長主持的協商限制表決前逐條的發言表決前才拿出最高機密的版本我認為你的說法"},{"start":2535.655,"end":2564.67,"text":"很多不是事實我要一一來破解跟拆除好 部長您說委員會過水跳過協商我們來看一下這個舊法免巴士量表的修法過程總共開了一次公聽會三天的委員會的審查再加上召委召開的這個黨團協商立法院執行刑事法可沒有說協商一定要函院長主持這樣還不算充分討論嗎光是為了一條修法"},{"start":2565.683,"end":2583.193,"text":"就討論了三次的委員會你知道其他的再生醫療法還有人體生物資料庫條例三四十條都討論也不過三天而已委員我講得很清楚其實原本這個案子在立法院是有派韓院長主持的"},{"start":2584.033,"end":2597.698,"text":"朝野協商的但後來這個朝野協商就被跳過了那我們原本想要帶著一個大家其實我們覺得可能更能夠執行或對衝擊會更小的方案到朝野協商來跟委員來討論當時我們做了這個準備"},{"start":2601.139,"end":2615.089,"text":"結果這一場協商就被跳過後來就直接表決了我覺得這個程序的過程會讓我們覺得好像少了一些像少了一些其實可以找到更好的處理方案的機會我講的是這件事情"},{"start":2631.279,"end":2648.875,"text":"我現在是幹事長我都見證件事你也當過幹事長如果貴黨柯總召不簽名的話這個根本協商是破局的所以你說在野黨都推給在野黨限制表決前的逐條發言我只要告訴你這簽名啊簽名啊三黨都簽名啊"},{"start":2649.255,"end":2672.382,"text":"不是像你說的那個就這個案子本身就把46條修法本身我自己很清楚我們當時是帶著我們覺得更能夠執行或讓衝擊更小的方案想要到朝野協商裡面來表達跟委員好好坐下來談可是當時的這個朝野協商確實是被跳過了也就是失去了這個更能夠好好討論的機會這是我覺得遺憾的地方"},{"start":2672.762,"end":2681.384,"text":"你說表決前才拿出最高機密版本你也當過幹部難道柯總召沒有教你嗎立法院的議事運作看一下柯總召怎麼講的請暫停 聲音時間請暫停"},{"start":2708.361,"end":2720.674,"text":"主委員會絕對不是綜藝版本最後版本是什麼最後版本是在表情那一剎那各黨提出版本才是最後版本嘛那時才是最後啊主委員會絕對不是綜藝版本"},{"start":2724.403,"end":2745.432,"text":"好那我就講部長你聽到了柯總召說表決前那一剎那拿出來的還是最後版本這個其實每個黨他都有所謂的最高機密版本大家都有只是說最後的那個再修正動議的版本其實跟原來不會差很大只是一些微調所以我要說部長"},{"start":2746.232,"end":2764.35,"text":"可惜啦 部長可惜你726的那個催票文沒什麼效果啦所以我勸你 身為部長少講政治 多談政策啦否則這個禮拜六大罷免可能又要再大失敗喔讓我說明一下我作為一個行政首長"},{"start":2765.848,"end":2788.611,"text":"我當時想表達的事情是想要爭取能夠讓更多的行政機構可以好好的討論政策跟法案的機會我其實在表達的是這件事情所以當時沒有辦法在朝野協商裡面好好表達我覺得對於最後的結果讓我覺得這是比較可惜的地方我是作為一個行政首長希望能夠爭取"},{"start":2789.972,"end":2803.838,"text":"有這樣子好好討論政策的機會我的初衷是這個我們的主題是有媒體報導勞動部把這個這個免除這個巴西量把評估就新申請這個外籍看護人數列為最高機密所以讓人家質疑啊你當時一直喊說會造成搶工會造成長照體系的這個崩壞好像修法一通過天秀塌下來一樣"},{"start":2812.202,"end":2832.452,"text":"那現在是這樣嗎 請問到8月1號到現在為止要免憑巴士量表的申請外籍考問人數有多少你說有多少 天有塌下來嗎最新的數據到8月17號目前是 就是說因為修法而新取得資格而有來申請的大概是1450左右"},{"start":2838.675,"end":2859.835,"text":"那但是我們的確看到在第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍第二週的數據是第一週數據的兩倍那這意思是說到底接下來的趨勢會怎麼樣走坦白說還需要一段時間觀察我們當然希望沒什麼衝擊但是人民不能接受的是你不要用恐嚇的方式來做你來回應你不想做的事"},{"start":2859.855,"end":2884.816,"text":"委員我並沒有用恐嚇方式我們做的事情是為可能會的衝擊做因應的準備委員我們不是恐嚇我們我們這6個月很努力在做的事情是為可能會發生的衝擊去做足我們的衝擊準備的因應的工作這是我們做我們不是只是恐嚇我們並沒有恐嚇主席我我他佔用我太多時間了我那個"},{"start":2887.13,"end":2910.604,"text":"我前幾天看到新聞部長有提到說針對外界關注開放印度移工來補充看護移工的事情勞動部說因為印度是新的移工來源國那目前我方跟印度政府在今年初的協商是希望尤其從製造業跟傳統產業開放至少1000名進來那看到這裡我就有疑問勞動部預期要補充很多外籍看護人員"},{"start":2911.324,"end":2932.699,"text":"為什麼年初跟印度政府談判的時候沒有列入考量呢沒有列入這個部分為什麼你不列入這個外籍看護呢跟委員說明確實當時在討論印度移工的時候社會普遍現在比較能夠接比較能夠有共識接受的是印度移工先進到製造業跟這些傳產裡面那為什麼這個是法通過了你不做你說有困難然後談論談判的時候又不把它納入"},{"start":2939.591,"end":2958.854,"text":"不是談判委員你誤會了當時在印度移工引進的時候包括來立法院報告當時很清楚就是跟立法院說明會印度移工如果進來的話會先以製造業或這些傳產作為優先的這個引進的場域當時就是跟立法院說的很清楚的事情"},{"start":2959.617,"end":2986.157,"text":"反正部長去年就三讀通過了如果你真的想像你們擔心的衝擊那你應該想辦法增加來源啊不只是印度還有其他的來源國不是去刻意營造一個在立法之後你去營造整個社會一種強外籍這個抗汙增加來源國的量能增加來源國供給引進的量能這是我們六大配套措施裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":2986.877,"end":3013.172,"text":"你在學育健保養 我就給你這麼多移工 好 你們自己去搶然後創造這個社會這種氛圍 害怕的氛圍委員 我要跟你說我們花在這六個月時間花了很多的力氣跟四個移工來源國去協商希望他們增加引進的數量我們在這四個月不斷的跟四個來源國協商這件事情就是希望增加引進的這供給量這是我們配套措施裡面講得很清楚的部分"},{"start":3013.735,"end":3034.919,"text":"我希望你不要將對長者的照護當作一個政治這個操作或攻擊我完全沒有把它當作政治操作的工具我們是很努力的在針對衝擊來進行配套的準備這樣講對我們的同仁是不公平的我們的同仁在這六個月的時間裡面多麼努力在這件事情上包括增加引進的量"},{"start":3035.379,"end":3057.405,"text":"引進一千名勞工不是今年初談的是去年談的去年何沛山部長就開始談了開放巴士輛票的修法已經討論了一整年了你們有相當充分的時間去做準備所以你們年底通過就應該跟印度政府協商啊你完全沒有把這個看護工納在裡面啊我們通過以後就馬上跟來源國協商增加供給量"},{"start":3061.467,"end":3072.816,"text":"去年底12月31號三讀通過以後我們就馬上在1月的時候就跟來源國開始在接洽希望能夠增加引進的供給的量這是我們在做的事情"},{"start":3073.824,"end":3096.753,"text":"你們現在提出的六套配套措施老實說我必須給予肯定啦這些做法當然就是跟時間會改變但是該肯定我給你肯定但是我希望未來各行政部門首長都一樣不要存著僥倖的心態不要存著說國會要改組我可以翻案的心態就好好面對立法院三讀通過的這個法條好好去面對它 準備它"},{"start":3097.933,"end":3113.499,"text":"三讀通過後在12月底通過後我們馬上就開始準備從1月不管是在配套不管是輕重的這個分流也包括是供給量我們就開始準備但是是12月底才三讀通過啊"},{"start":3119.485,"end":3146.85,"text":"我們就一直在醞釀那個法廠的過程當中你們就當作說就通過以後也不做你到我辦公室來也是告訴我說這個至愛難行委員我到你的辦公室是告訴你我們會進行哪些配套當時到你辦公室提供給你的文件我都還留著我就是告訴我再告訴你我們做輕重分流包括來源國的增量這都是我們的配套重要的配套之一我到你辦公室的時候都很清楚的告訴委員"},{"start":3147.21,"end":3163.246,"text":"法案是爭議性的法案好嗎就面對他處理他好好對待他好謝謝部長好謝謝陳肇事委員的發言也謝謝部長的答詢也祝肇事委員這個喉嚨可以早日康復好下一位我們請林慧琼委員發言林委員請"},{"start":3176.639,"end":3192.422,"text":"主席麻煩我們的洪部長有請洪部長部長早 去年底我們就通過了那個就業服務法第46條修法"},{"start":3192.95,"end":3214.957,"text":"那恐怕就將打亂包括重度需求者跟失智症者的照顧規劃那新法大概開放80歲以上或70歲以上罹患癌症第二期的長輩不用經過專業評估就可以直接聘僱我們的外籍看護這樣一來增加了53萬有聘僱資格者 聘僱移工資格者"},{"start":3215.441,"end":3236.349,"text":"那預估也是將近有10萬的人要提出申請特別是這些申請人多數都是比較好照顧的長輩那將把真正需求的重症者會排擠到後邊所以本席非常擔心未來將是移工更難請薪資飆高有錢也找不到人我想這不是只有我們的擔心也不是說那真的是"},{"start":3239.183,"end":3267.352,"text":"剛剛趙志偉講的說 政府在恐嚇 事實上民間團體也提出來所以7月28日那社福總盟跟很多的相關的 因為總盟大概六十幾個團體那他們跟本席共同召開記者會希望落實呢 在呼籲落實我們的重症優先會中臺灣的失智症協會還表示說失智症患者家庭從來都沒有被移工選"},{"start":3268.342,"end":3282.005,"text":"而是沒有挑選移工的條件那他們根本是沒有選擇任何有選擇權而且他們是被挑選的所以我們很擔心的是未來重症家庭將更難請到移工或者是因為"},{"start":3282.611,"end":3301.09,"text":"代價昂貴而請不起義工義工本來就是第一個國跟國的競爭我們本來就很難競爭得過日韓兩個國家還有產業跟產業之間的競爭今天看護工要去競爭其他跟其他產業競爭本來就一定困難更何況現在還有所謂的"},{"start":3302.165,"end":3317.143,"text":"避重就輕也就是重症的真的事實上會很難找到人所以想問勞動部 勞動部提出的六大配套當中提出來說重症者最快一天內能夠完成國內推薦七天可以獲得招募的許可函"},{"start":3317.731,"end":3341.862,"text":"如此能夠節省13到21天便可進入國外選工的程序可是人力仲介公司早在半年前就已經開始宣傳我們的聘僱新制同時對僱主跟移工來伸手招攬所以重症者家庭勢必是國外便會是可能招募不到人所以我們不知道勞動部對於幫重症節省的這個21天有效嗎"},{"start":3343.69,"end":3366.611,"text":"跟委員說明的確這個修法不管是在修法的期間或修法通過我們其實最擔心的其實就是對重症家庭影響那的確在這尤其是近期就是這個法生效上路之後我們陸陸續續也接到一些澄清就是說這些重症的家庭他要聘僱移工的時候或他已經聘僱的移工"},{"start":3367.572,"end":3386.555,"text":"那在照顧的狀態上面會做出改變或對於是否要留下來有移工開始會有一些不一樣的想法那這樣子的陳情的案件我們也陸陸續續聽到不少那包括網路上面其實大概有些在社群媒體上面也是可以看到這樣的訊息那這都其實這真的都不是我們樂見的事情"},{"start":3387.376,"end":3403.445,"text":"所以剛剛在講到說我們也是思考到重症家庭的權益所以我們在這一次的配套裡面我特別希望讓重症家庭包括他的行政的審查都能夠比較優先包括可能像一般來講過去一般其實在求財階段你可能要求財要七天"},{"start":3404.586,"end":3432.012,"text":"那接下來在這個如果是重症拿到重症的資格的話他在求財可能一天我們都盡量的去縮短這個他們可能相對應的程序或者是我們在承辦案件的時候讓重症家庭可以優先就是希望盡量再減少一些重症家庭在這裡面會遇到的行政上面的可能一些阻礙或者是一些行政上面的時間上面的成本這是我們希望優先來幫助重症家庭的部分"},{"start":3432.692,"end":3459.973,"text":"這個短期有效一個月後可能就很難達到我們的重症優先的效果那勞動部怎麼看這件事為什麼我們這樣講就像現在是因為不是這麼多我們的有80歲以上的老人家庭知道我覺得公民團體在推估初期真的申請的人不會這麼多可是後端越來越多人知道的時候這個效果可能會看半年後"},{"start":3460.515,"end":3470.557,"text":"才會看到那個衝擊量進來所以預估10萬所以現在有很多人講說不會啊現在看起來一直在問勞動部說你們好像進來剛剛講的我們招資委員說"},{"start":3472.563,"end":3490.684,"text":"沒有多少人申請嘛 量很低可是我們擔心的是半年後其實因為現在在趨勢上面還沒有辦法看得很清楚就像我剛才跟委員包括跟媒體報告的的確現在看起來量好像沒有一下暴增很多可是我們的確已經看到第二週比第一週的申請的人數是兩倍"},{"start":3491.525,"end":3510.068,"text":"那未來第三週第四週會是什麼樣的趨勢這部分可能還要更多的數據比較才能觀察到這個趨勢但我們只能盡我們所能的協助重症的家庭就像我想我在剛才在報告上因為說我的確我們也自己心清楚可能還是很難完全就是"},{"start":3511.36,"end":3526.56,"text":"避免對重症家庭的影響這是我們只能盡我們作為一個行政部門的所能盡力的優先盡力的優先服務重症家庭這是我們所能做的事情但能做的事情我們就盡量做至少這是我們行政部門的責任"},{"start":3526.86,"end":3551.237,"text":"在過去多元免貧的方案的條件裡面有一項條件是使用長照六個月後就取得我們的移工聘僱的資格這項條件確實是有效拖延非重症者跟重症者搶人的時程那所以在訂這個政策的時候除了縮短重症僱主的求財招募申請時間另外一邊另一邊為什麼不延長非重症者"},{"start":3552.037,"end":3575.366,"text":"雇主的求財招募的時間 申請的時間把兩邊的距離再度的能夠再拉長一點其實現在對委員的問題是要把時間再縮短嗎也就是說我覺得要把兩邊 否則的話你現在在80歲大概7天的時間 雖然講重症的時間事實上是可以"},{"start":3575.748,"end":3601.83,"text":"可以短一點就申請得到我們是希望如果這兩邊時間可以拉長是不是就可以讓重症的事實上還是有優先的一個考量我們基本上現在是讓輕症的還是維持原本的因為這是原本的就是我們其實也沒有特別要去卡輕症的因為如果我們要特別把它程序拉長的話可能也會造成這邊輕症的申請者他們可能也會有抱怨所以我們基本上現在就是維持輕症的申請者他是"},{"start":3602.731,"end":3620.772,"text":"原本的 原本的但我們做的事情是讓重症優先就是而不是選 我們的確現在沒有不是去選擇說我把輕症的程序給拉長因為這個 部長這就是很難 2021年我們就曾經發生生產業類的那個移工搶人大戰"},{"start":3621.753,"end":3636.184,"text":"疫情限制了移工的入境導致我們的缺工頻傳然後部分看護工看準廠工價優渥的勞動條件以騷擾雇主或是代工方式來逼迫雇主藉由三方合一方式轉為廠工那讓"},{"start":3639.026,"end":3666.32,"text":"需照顾家庭的雇主急着跳脚对此劳动部那时候去修正了一个办法民定移工跨业的话转换的话要以同类别为优先也就是说看护家庭看护工如果14内没有雇主承接的话才可以转换到其他所以想问劳动部我们的聘雇新制上路的时候的一个问题早在今年初就已经传遍了整个移工社群"},{"start":3666.94,"end":3687.618,"text":"媒體甚至還報導說今年7月移工1955的專線被打到爆重症家庭拼顧移工遇難跳槽所以請問今年7月到現在1955諮詢專線的數量到底有沒有增加還有社福類的移工轉換僱主的諮詢電話有多少的比例"},{"start":3689.617,"end":3711.197,"text":"我想一直以來其實我們的1955的這個專線其實但來詢問移工相關的事項就是比較多那的確這幾個月來來詢問這個80歲以上免巴士量表的申請的程序等等的相關的問題的確也是增加不少不過詳細的數字我可能要跟我們部裡面的優單位去確認一下才知道到底多了多少"},{"start":3711.397,"end":3727.562,"text":"好那是不是會後再給我那不然也是再續問就是說新制上路至今我們的社福類移工的申請轉換雇主許可的申請案件量跟前幾個月比是不是有增加是就像你剛剛講的嗎"},{"start":3728.922,"end":3751.857,"text":"對就是我剛才說到就是說我剛才講這個大概1450左右的這個數字其實是等於是在修法後那因為修法而興取的資格有來申請的人包括80歲以上免巴氏量表的80就簡單80歲以上的長者跟70到79歲癌症二期這兩個加起來是這個數字那"},{"start":3754.638,"end":3772.676,"text":"這個數字確實我們看到了一些增加的趨勢但是後續真的還需要一點時間我們也不敢斷言是不是之後一定會必然增加其實從勞動部的角度我們也不希望這個數字增加因為我們在提醒器重則輕這件事情它其實是一個提醒它不是我們的政策目標"},{"start":3774.257,"end":3795.075,"text":"器重責輕並不是我們的政策目標或者我們政策目標是要增加大量的人來申請這不是我們政策目標可是勞動部做一個行政部門要為可能會有增加的人數尤其是如果真的增加很多的話我們必須做準備這是一個行政部門該有的責任所以我們也不能把它想得好像很樂觀或者是都沒問題"},{"start":3796.236,"end":3822.795,"text":"這樣可能也會出問題 所以我們必須把情境想可能比較嚴峻一點 為嚴峻的狀況做準備如果真的沒有人來這麼多的話 那我想我們我們做的準備也比較能夠因應大家的需求部長既然國內我們的缺工日漸嚴重 勞動部去提升 提升什麼因為因為本期獲知部分移工安置中心等待轉換僱主的移工 因為照顧技術不好在"},{"start":3823.175,"end":3842.341,"text":"入境半年內就跟僱主就跟他解約了可是在移工在解約之後比較不容易轉換所以近日大家有很多越南籍移工遇到這樣的問題所以有沒有考慮去提升他們的照顧技術活化在安置中心等待的時間內去做這件事情讓移工能夠順利轉化也可以解決那個缺工的問題"},{"start":3843.021,"end":3870.328,"text":"我想其實我們接下來包括我們近期其實也針對我們的轉換的中心會把它強化它的功能那就是希望讓移工的轉換能夠更順暢不要有很多可能合約到期以後他就必須被送回去被送回國家我們更希望他能夠被優先的承接那第二個該委員說關於我們這個學習的課程我們接下來也會來強化尤其包括語言的部分或者是照顧的技巧的部分我想這都是我們想強化的方向"},{"start":3872.006,"end":3881.042,"text":"再麻煩我們的衛福部的次長我想這項政策 按理說不應該是勞動部的事是不是衛福部在推動移工學習上有什麼貢獻"},{"start":3882.424,"end":3909.82,"text":"是 非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我包委員我們在這一個大院通過這一個46條以後本部跟勞動部一直維持非常非常密切的一個聯繫因為經過左院長的一個指示我們當時馬上就成立一個所謂雙次長的一個會議那洪森漢 洪部長還對我們非常非常有很多的一個指導那跟委員報告我們主要就幾個部分"},{"start":3910.6,"end":3931.762,"text":"就是大家最關心的一個就是對於重症的一個這個衝擊所以我們基本上是輕重分流而且重症可是我現在看你們開的事實上有的是線上課程可是線上課程跟實體課程還是有落差所以移工區上課如果要實體課程的話當然因為僱主在這段時間沒有人照顧需要常照服務資源所以請問一下"},{"start":3932.879,"end":3954.647,"text":"衛福部有什麼樣一個對應的作為是 報告委員其實因為最主要就是這個部分如果說移工他要來上課的話其實基本上還在經過這一個顧主他們的家庭的同意那我也必須要承認就是說一般來說顧主他通常還是會對於這個準價的部分可能會有一些比較他們自己本身的需要"},{"start":3955.407,"end":3984.635,"text":"那當然我們也會這邊還是來加強來宣導因為其實移工他來上其實對於整個照顧的品質基本上還是有幫助所以我們基本上這邊還是會跟這一個病故的家庭來多宣導最後我希望是不是可以考慮因為大概整個照顧歷程平均10年從衰落到離世這個時間點大概10年所以問衛福部說我覺得在長期照顧在整個照顧方式的選項裡面是不是應該把"},{"start":3985.347,"end":4007.164,"text":"移工的照顾跟住宿型机构整合进来不是只有你的衰弱到中度后边呢就是交由家庭来去做解决那你的看法如何我觉得这个确实我们我觉得这是一个不错的方向我也会来跟同仁来言领就是刚刚委员刚刚所说的这部分确实啦因为整个这一个"},{"start":4008.144,"end":4035.121,"text":"我們長照3.0也即將在明年上路那我想這個裡面對於怎麼樣把家庭康護工這個也視為我們未來的一個整個潛在人力我想這個所以進一步再問就是既然這次把80歲的巴士輛把廢除所以我們有沒有考慮就是因為2021年的話身心障礙者需求評估ICF曾經做過一次改革那老人照顧的需求評估為何不做改革"},{"start":4035.541,"end":4056.407,"text":"整個用你的長照需求做評估報告委員其實基本上就是說84兩表跟我們現在所謂CMS基本上還是我必須要說還是有點不太一樣84兩表其實基本上大概就是說你要不要聘僱外籍家庭那CMS可不可以不能用整個那個CMS來做評估嗎報告委員還是兩個還是不一樣我舉個我打個比方這個84兩表有點像就是資格考"},{"start":4057.387,"end":4079.62,"text":"博士班的資格考可是呢你的CMS有點像博士班口試這兩個還是不一樣一個是資格一個是民間團體已經開始有提出這樣子的一個想法所以你們評估看看然後再把評估報告給我因為時間關係非常感謝委員的一個指教謝謝好 謝謝林耀勛委員發言也謝謝相關部長的答詢下一位我們請陳靜雯委員發言"},{"start":4089.072,"end":4092.993,"text":"謝謝主席 還有謝謝官員 我們請洪部長有請洪部長陳委員早 部長早因為這是蠻多委員是關心這樣子的議題因為內閣據說8月25號會改組所以也想請教洪部長未來還有機會可以在這邊繼續質詢你嗎我想就是政務官的去留不是我自己決定的 是是長官決定的所以"},{"start":4119.742,"end":4143.585,"text":"我沒有辦法回答你這個問題這個是當時您上任的時候卓院長給了您三個任務那我剛剛當然聽了很多這個您跟陳肇之委員的質詢在這邊我也想問您剛好講您發這篇文章有它的正當性還有您在意的事情不過當然外界有認為您在726大罷免的前夕"},{"start":4144.045,"end":4172.135,"text":"似乎是行政不太中立並且逾越了勞動部長的本分因為當初卓院長找您來也是希望您做全民的部長那如果你覺得整個都沒毛病的話請問你後來說有補請假的原因是什麼呢因為在一般勞工的認定中補請假大部分是小朋友健康有點問題要趕快去學校接或者是自身的家庭問題等等這是很急迫的狀況"},{"start":4173.115,"end":4176.624,"text":"那因為發了一篇文章所以之後才補請假的原因是什麼"},{"start":4178.922,"end":4205.357,"text":"那個像我們當天沒有說補請假我想我還是要再重申一次其實當天我這個發文的表達在表達的事情就是因為當時大家都很關心這個免巴士量表的問題那我們在當初要表決前其實的那場超級協商其實我們是帶了我覺得我們覺得相對是可以減緩可能會對重症帶來衝擊的那個方案希望到"},{"start":4207.078,"end":4227.671,"text":"這個協商的現場來跟草野的委員來討論也許我們有一些更好的方法一樣可以滿足一些長者的需求但是對可能的衝擊可以減少的方法我們其實是帶著這樣子一個方案但這個距離當時三獨或是協商其實這個時間點是過滿久的啦我不曉得你身為一個行政中立的部長我不知道你認為這個時機點"},{"start":4229.352,"end":4255.404,"text":"合不合適為什麼十幾點我想講的原因是因為當時其實就是在這個修法要生效前有一段大概有兩個禮拜的時間因為陸陸續續在媒體上面有報導有一些長者他重症的長者他遇到這個看護工可能不想要待想要轉走轉出的報導那一段時間裡面在媒體上面在社群媒體上這樣子的聲音很多"},{"start":4256.204,"end":4270.833,"text":"所以當時我才向大家報告說其實當初在三讀前其實有當時有一個原本是韓院長要這個要來召集我們是帶著這樣子的方案準備到現場結果朝野協商跳過了"},{"start":4271.914,"end":4296.234,"text":"八四兩表的輿論很多所以你發了這篇文我們事後再來看看他輿論的流量是不是在你發文的時候多不過在這邊也稍微提醒你也稍微提醒你如果你8月23號以前還要發文的話可以利用下班時間這樣子爭議比較少再來這也是其他人有在意的你看一下現在你還在中常委的名單上面不會覺得很奇怪嗎"},{"start":4297.034,"end":4310.425,"text":"因為第二個任務他就是希望您建立一個友善健全的職場這是卓院長給您的任務向委員報告在我到勞動部工作以後基本上我從來就在沒有去開過中場會"},{"start":4312.347,"end":4333.653,"text":"就是針對跟黨執就跟黨執有關的執行就再也沒有 那我們看看我們看看別人這個蘇志芬之前在擔任續產會董做以後就立刻請辭中常委我不太懂如果你不以身作則來以身示範要怎麼樣帶領勞動部的全體員工做到行政中立"},{"start":4335.403,"end":4358.649,"text":"總之我是跟委員說明說在去年的應該是11月底我到勞動部以後我就沒有再去做任何跟黨職有關權力上面的行使包括會議我想我們都沒有去出席了沒關係因為一般人民對於請辭或者是長期請假的看法大家還是覺得有一個落差"},{"start":4360.911,"end":4388.937,"text":"但如果你想做這樣子的選擇那就做這樣子的選擇這個是全台灣非常多球迷很關心我們上次也做了很多討論今年5月我們就說您會來協助他們做團體協約的簽訂那我想問一下到現在已經8月了不知道進度如何呢因為後來您也很友善的發文給我說會去拜會職棒公會然後把一些妹妹嘎嘎都跟球員公會來做分享"},{"start":4391.433,"end":4413.589,"text":"跟委員報告之前新的理事長就任的時候我們都有去出席那也代表老東部有這個上次都講過了你們有去記者會我們也跟工會有提到就是說如果有需要開始談團體協商的時候可以跟我們聯繫我們有專家可以協助那有可能因為他們現在事務比較繁忙那我們會再主動再來跟他們溝通"},{"start":4414.409,"end":4427.474,"text":"好所以你近期內大概多久以內會主動跟他們接洽因為現在許多球員他們在意的是這個洪部長一定也很關心明年1月我們又有新的經典賽但是他們對於明年這個出場的賽事出場費這個談定的"},{"start":4432.356,"end":4445.641,"text":"價錢已經是非常非常久以前的行情了大概三四年前的行情那現在球員們他們也很在意勞資關係小組啊肖像權的保障啊等等的那我們會期待您也可以運用您的影響力"},{"start":4447.281,"end":4470.392,"text":"我們其實部裡面一直很鼓勵這個工會跟企業來簽訂團體協約那如果有機會的話我想我可以再請再發文一次甚至不是發文我覺得更主動的直接聯繫只要任何幫得上忙的地方我們都願意來盡量去促成工會跟企業來簽團體協約我們會盡我們所有可以做的努力"},{"start":4470.792,"end":4494.16,"text":"因為明年1月也是許多球迷關心的三四所以同步他們也關心這樣子的議題我們期待可以看到部長有一些協助的地方再來這個是上次也跟部長問過的勞動部開放橋外畢業生留台工作在旅宿業的申請人數上次我跟您質詢的時候僅有一人申請也想知道現在是幾人了"},{"start":4497.328,"end":4517.417,"text":"還是藝人 還是藝人好 上次我們也比較了勞動部跟交通部觀光署推出的一個觀光旅遊業以及旅遊業申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習的要點當時喔不到半年申請人數突破千人我現在跟您更新一下你當時藝人現在藝人人家現在是1500件申請"},{"start":4520.879,"end":4534.893,"text":"那另外我也有聽說勞動部跟交通部有想要再開放第二個產業這個您知道是哪一個產業嗎你講的第二個產業對 除了旅宿業以外第二個產業他們想再開放實習要點"},{"start":4543.345,"end":4564.535,"text":"我想這還在評估中所以你們其實也有開會嗎也不是 我們其實也有跟交通部在討論比方說大家針對實習的問題的一些如果有涉及勞動權益的部分我們跟交通部會有再交換意見我獲得的資訊是貨運業貨運業 你有知道這樣子的事嗎交通部有跟你討論嗎委員的資訊可能要再確認"},{"start":4572.338,"end":4599.236,"text":"沒有 還沒有但缺工的確是一個事實我們只是希望跟你討論是不是有更健全更完整配套的實習生來彌補這個缺工我們來比較一下這個左邊是您勞動部的移工留才久用方案開放對象這個你很熟了在台工作滿6年以上或是取得我國副學士以上學位的僑外生右邊是現在交通部可能有找你一起討論的實習要點來看"},{"start":4601.718,"end":4629.284,"text":"他們來台許可期間不能超過他自己就讀學程的二分之一就最多一半比如說他這個在當國的學程是四年他在台灣兩年申請一次違憲那現在做個兩三年交通不公他們就希望他可以繼續留在台灣擔任技術人力這個跟你們原本的移工留才久用方案似乎原則差距非常的大"},{"start":4630.188,"end":4654.895,"text":"跟委員說明因為實習的部分的確跟這個因為移工留才久用是針對技術人力的部分那技術人力是工作那實習的確跟工作的性質還是不太一樣的所以有點難直接拿來這樣類比但我們的確不裡面現在我們針對整體的跨國勞動力的政策我們都希望能夠擴大這個技術人力的"},{"start":4655.925,"end":4676.293,"text":"流用 因為現在產業上面其實對於技術人力是很欠缺的 就是剛剛委員說到說我們其實對產業的各種職缺的調查裡面很清楚看到大家對技術人力的缺乏所以我們現在一些政策的規劃也希望讓未來的跨國勞動力的部分能夠更"},{"start":4678.086,"end":4697.019,"text":"往技術能力的方向來走來去供應給我們的產業產業的發展的需求但我也是站在您的立場因為您是要關心本勞嘛短期內當然這些方案有可能可以舒緩缺口可是長期它也可能會壓低我們本勞的溢價能力讓這個"},{"start":4698.78,"end":4726.536,"text":"有一個惡性循環所以我們在跨國勞動力的政策的開放裡面其實我們也很多次表達我們有幾個最重要的原則第一個不希望影響本勞的就業機會甚至我們還希望是不是能夠有機會透過跨國勞動力的政策來拉高本土勞工的勞動條件甚至薪資我這邊這都是我們其實希望設定的政策的目標"},{"start":4727.296,"end":4741.512,"text":"我這邊提供您一些其他國家的做法看您下次是否跨部門的會議的時候可以拿出來講我們當然你講到實習跟他實際在這邊做事情不太一樣如果我們讓實習要變得有意義的"},{"start":4742.233,"end":4768.554,"text":"比如說日本之前他也想利用實習的研修生制度來彌補勞工的缺口但因為沒有保障最後他們有去做調整比如說透過合法的中階技術人力制度來要求通過一定的證照或者是要達到日檢日檢日文的檢定還有專門性的技術考試合格等等的才可以讓這些實習生繼續留下來當作技術人力"},{"start":4768.854,"end":4791.487,"text":"根本說明他們在講的實習生他們其實指的是那個工作實習我們現在講實習生比較是從學校出發的實習其實是有點不同但是我們的確這樣的想法還是可以把它加入的確我們其實現在在很多技術人力的政策上面我們的確是在參考也參考日本的政策所以剛剛在講到是說他們的研修生或者是現在的育成"},{"start":4793.502,"end":4818.92,"text":"預成就勞的做法其實都是我們現在在做政策規劃的時候我們其實有在參考的案例就國家的案例這個我們以後會再後續跟您追走剛剛大家已經聽到您回答從現在8月1號開始申請是1450人嗎就是免84量表加上70到79歲的癌症二期以上"},{"start":4819.58,"end":4848.447,"text":"等下會有非常多委員問所以我這邊不多做琢磨可是我會希望我們是不是今年年底就這個計劃運行了半年左右可以去提交一個政策實行的檢討報告因為可能到了年底或者是半年我們這邊所有的委員我也會想要知道你真正申請的件數是多少你輕症跟重症如何分流那你怎麼輕症重症的比例等等那是不是要做一個政策檢討"},{"start":4849.207,"end":4863.197,"text":"沒有問題 我們一定 這個是我們願意提供好 最後有一個小的問題因為最近我們收到行政院來提追加預算那勞動部每年都會固定編列一個是表揚全國模範勞工選拔然後會辦在勞動節5月1號 穩定在500萬的規模比如說111年526 536 531等等每一年大概就在這個範圍的上下"},{"start":4874.205,"end":4896.849,"text":"那這個預算我們去年就通過啦並且你今年5月1號也辦完活動雖然辦活動那天很尷尬超過5000位的勞工走上街頭抗議賴政府抗議紅部長可是這個活動就辦完了但是現在送進來的追加預算又有228萬裡面又寫到說你要去辦模範勞工的選拔跟表揚我想問是為什麼呢我圈起來在中間的下面"},{"start":4903.694,"end":4920.23,"text":"跟委員報告這裡面不是說特別是追加我們另外還有這個獎補助還有包括一些對我們勞工的每一個模範勞工的我們有一個獎勵金還有一個補助他到補助全國性工會去辦理五一表達會"},{"start":4921.411,"end":4942.778,"text":"等於說不是我們 光我們自己辦全國慶的公會他辦模範勞工表揚我們有適度的去補助因為是全國慶的公會你是說今年5月1號辦完了之後你還要再補助其他的表揚嗎對 就因為我們全台灣這個全國慶的公會有10個左右然後他們辦表揚大會的時候我們有助於補助一些金額"},{"start":4944.051,"end":4961.919,"text":"那之前好幾年我看了好幾年的預算為什麼沒有這樣子追加表這個每年都有這個補助每年都有好那我會再跟您要這個追加228萬的完整支出規劃用書面報告送過來好嗎謝謝好謝謝陳經理發言也謝謝洪部長的答詢現在我們請王育民發言"},{"start":4979.364,"end":4981.928,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長好 請洪部長王委員好"},{"start":4988.325,"end":5012.609,"text":"部長好部長你在7月25號11點44分上班時間發文那你把巴士量表的修法呢舉例說他是一個快速出委員會好像過水式的這樣的一個修法我就要請教你請問巴士量表當時在委員會的審查審查的時間多久為什麼在你認定他是一個過水式的修法"},{"start":5013.209,"end":5030.687,"text":"從什麼時候開始修法那個我想跟委員說明我其實做這個巴塞陽堡的舉例主要是在講的是其實當初其實有機會其實韓院長朝野協商我就問你他是不是一個快速出委員會的修法如果不是請你道歉當時我是召委"},{"start":5031.528,"end":5056.761,"text":"我的牌法並沒有快速的出委員會在委員會討論了兩次還辦了黨團的協商之後委員會也還辦了公聽會你所謂快速的出委員會是什麼意思如果不是的事情一個部長可以公然在你的臉書上面造謠說謊嗎如果這不是你要表達的目的你為什麼把巴士亮表的修法通通寫進去了我反對你這樣子誤導"},{"start":5059.022,"end":5075.011,"text":"背離事實巴士亮表的修法在座的委員都在當時有快速出委員會嗎是用表決出委員會嗎 都沒有嗎還有經過朝野協商所以這件事情錯了就是錯了我覺得承認錯誤就好這完全是背離事實"},{"start":5076.252,"end":5093.202,"text":"有快速出委員會嗎 你先告訴我跟我說明我當初其實是做了幾個法律案的舉例在我的文字裡面那你就不應該把巴士量表拿出來嗎我特別為什麼講巴士量表的原因是因為他跳過了韓院長要召集的朝野協商你沒有當過立法委員嗎"},{"start":5094.262,"end":5118.729,"text":"現在所有的法案沒有一定要經過韓院長主持的朝野協商委員會自己的協商也算其實當初韓院長是有排的我們是準備了法案原本要到朝野協商上面跟委員好好的來針對這個案子可能可以的做法來討論你這個都是事後的狡辯之詞這不是事後這是當時在就是發生的事情你當時你的臉書文我希望你自己再把它download下來好好看一遍"},{"start":5120.315,"end":5139.548,"text":"你把巴士亮表的修法說為是一個過水式的修法這個本行是絕對的抗議跟反對背離事實背離委員會好好的審查這一個法條的事實你應該要道歉你根本就是說謊背離事實而且當時你不是勞動部部長"},{"start":5141.118,"end":5167.306,"text":"我是勞動部部長 韓院長的協商我是勞動部部長我們委員會審查的時候你不是勞動部部長對 可是我在講的是韓院長的協商的時候那你為什麼要把那一段寫出來呢 完全背離事實嘛你當時又不是部長 是何佩珊在當部長你也沒有參與審查的過程 你還好意思把整個的結果寫出來掛在臉書上面結果現在就是被打臉 完全背離事實第二個我要講 當時這一個巴士量表修法就是要檢證便民"},{"start":5168.826,"end":5194.071,"text":"事實上在野黨的出發點非常簡單就是簡正變民因為有很多民眾有這樣的心聲就是如此而已但是勞動部你們放大了那個衝擊你說有10萬人一下子會湧進10萬人影響非常巨大那我就問你到目前為止你剛剛報告說到目前為止8月17號登記申請的1400人對不對"},{"start":5198.054,"end":5209.852,"text":"那你當時的巨大的衝擊報告在你的臉書所呈現的你試圖要告訴全國民眾說這是一個錯誤的修法這是一個錯誤的政策你當時的立場就是這樣嗎現在事後來看"},{"start":5212.576,"end":5231.122,"text":"現在已經上路了而且你們跟衛福部也有去討論重症優先的原則請問他真的衝擊有那麼大嗎有爆量嗎有所有的人都氣重就輕嗎我覺得作為一個政務官秉於專業跟事實這是你最好的解方但是你如果為了反對而反對"},{"start":5232.302,"end":5247.512,"text":"坦白講最後就是自打臉而已媒體下的標就是跌破眼鏡嘛你們當時啊宣稱的十萬結果第一個月應該是如果你當時宣稱是這樣應該第一個月大家都急著要來搶可能至少是幾萬吧結果沒有是一千多"},{"start":5249.355,"end":5275.327,"text":"跟委員說明我們現在在數據上面的確看到第二個星期是第一個星期的兩倍是多少的兩倍是第一個星期的兩倍對 數字是多少所以它的成長的趨勢是看得到的我知道嘛 那本數是多少啦不要再用那種兩倍的數字刻意好像還不想承認錯誤還要想要去放大說是兩倍的成長那個都沒有意義事實就是事實"},{"start":5276.207,"end":5303.866,"text":"我說過了80歲以上開放的這一個免巴士量表他的初心只有一個是要簡正便民他不在於是侯友宇的政策不在於是賴清德的政策而是民意之所向因為現在的程序就是很繁複僅此而已你當然可以有你的立場反對但不用去誇大數字刻意要來貶抑這個政策他本身利益良善的這個部分我就提醒到此為止接下來一個很重要的議題這個是媒體很關心的"},{"start":5308.348,"end":5323.637,"text":"當時這個大家在討論救安基金濫用的問題事實上這個之前有揭露過其中你們做那個影片的部分真的這個金額高得嚇人一支影片可以高達上千萬但是點讚數不到500"},{"start":5324.958,"end":5353.846,"text":"那這件事情呢現在再次被掀出來討論呢大家就看到說審計部他認為難以以宴和履約的結果連審計部都不敢背書那部長你說要檢討請問你的檢討你到目前為止懲處了哪些人哪些人當時是讓他這樣子可以輕易的過關的另外你的檢討要不要移送檢調之前討論霸凌案你是來處理這個霸凌案的"},{"start":5354.426,"end":5381.437,"text":"相關的人等還有當時這個涉案的都已經移送檢調他現在也被起訴那這一個案子涉及到是2800萬這當中如果有審計部都難以背書的覺得你這樣子的一個核銷是有問題的那請問你要不要移送檢調你說要檢討你要不要移送檢調比照之前的霸凌案的處理我跟委員說明第一個其實的確針對救安基金致用這個問題"},{"start":5383.839,"end":5399.473,"text":"檢調是已經有立案在調查有包括這個部分嗎就是2800萬就是這整個部分你們提供的有包括2800萬也不只是這部分都有也不只是就是整個救安基金之用的問題檢調現在在已經有立案調查所以他全面的包含這部分都會一併調查"},{"start":5400.154,"end":5427.686,"text":"那我們勞動部其實也是全力在配合這些調查這是第一個第二個就像你的投影片上面寫到其實這幾個東西我們都在改革比方說下面那個常態性的行政支出因回歸公務預算我們已經跟行政院爭取過去可能我們認為其實他應該是支用在公用公預算來支用的部分不應該用救援基金來支用的部分我們已經跟行政院來爭取所以這個部分在115年的預算裡面我們已經爭取到了一些"},{"start":5428.846,"end":5441.588,"text":"那這部分我們就再落實第二個是 媒宣的預算或者是媒體宣導的部分我們也檢討了開口合約的適用的範圍所以今年 我說去年底"},{"start":5442.979,"end":5458.37,"text":"沒宣在開口合約上面的標案我就把它給停下來檢討了都沒有了 零件了所以現在我們部裡面是沒有政策沒宣的開口契約的不會再拍這種影片然後用開口合約我們未來會把影片的部分"},{"start":5459.15,"end":5484.552,"text":"我們當然後續未來還會使用開口契約因為各個部會跟地方政府其實大家很多還是使用開口契約可是我們認為在開口契約使用裡面我們覺得未來我們會把影片或者是一些活動給拿出開口契約的適用的範圍這個是我們對於開口契約的檢討所以委員你現在提的其實我們對於包括救安基金的使用包括開口契約的檢討這都是正在落實中的事情"},{"start":5484.892,"end":5502.037,"text":"好 我要求務必落實另外一個勞發署的水電費被報出來說還有九成是由救安基金支出這個是事實嗎這是媒體報的這個是我們因為你剛剛已經說你要回歸公務預算了對 明年的公務預算裡面"},{"start":5503.413,"end":5521.978,"text":"這個因為現在勞發署的嘴電是1比9那我們有跟行政院爭取不應該再是這個比例但因為我們發辦署的業務裡面其實也有蠻大部分是在執行基金的業務所以你明年還是九成不是不是不是九成是降低了幾成應該是數是4比6了"},{"start":5522.711,"end":5538.846,"text":"就是降低到六成還是有救安基金支出因為這是跟主計討論我們來盤點 發完暑的業務裡面有多少是在辦救安基金的業務有一部分是勞動部你們自己所屬的暑在濫用我覺得這邊很好用金庫就是很多錢該編的不編編到這邊來"},{"start":5542.069,"end":5568.88,"text":"我要提醒這個部長的是現在面對關稅的衝擊事實上你的救安基金就應該要用在刀口上這一些現在已經開始無薪假的勞工真的是非常的辛苦到目前為止已經有4000人這個是有通報的我都擔心有一些不見得有通報上來已通報的就已經有4000人那他們有的很慘他可能他"},{"start":5569.96,"end":5585.212,"text":"減班休息無薪假之後有可能只領到基本工資28590那請問他少掉的這些薪資你們現在的雇用安定措施薪資補貼也頂多補貼一半薪資差的一半"},{"start":5585.609,"end":5597.785,"text":"不是 現在提高到七成 提高到七成很好但是你可以想像一個人原來的收入如果他的月薪是五萬塊他要養家然後他因為這樣的減班休息少了請問他的房貸他的車貸還有孩子的學貸怎麼辦這個都是衝擊"},{"start":5603.553,"end":5633.03,"text":"所以我要問你的是你現在除了薪資的補貼你現在差額補貼到七成之外你有沒有給他一些新的貸款的措施像這個九月要開學了很多他家裡有大學生的就是要付學貸了像這一些被衝擊到勞工他的家庭他的家庭支出他如果短時間沒有辦法因應我就問你你的救安基金相關編併的預算還有行政院150億你有沒有給予勞工額外彈性的他可以來無息貸款"},{"start":5634.606,"end":5650.459,"text":"無息貸款的部分其實確實現在沒有在這裡面那我們現在比較著重的事情我們覺得比較重要的事情是如果你減班休息我希望盡量還是把你留在職場上因為如果你調出職場你如果失業的話那後面會更麻煩"},{"start":5651.36,"end":5671.69,"text":"所以我們基本上我們的資源現在先比較集中在先撐住假如你有遇到減班休息的勞工他的經濟安全的部分所以剛剛委員在講到這也是為什麼我們在前兩個禮拜裡面我們其實把原本公安訂措施的五成的補貼薪資差的五成補貼拉高到七成甚至我們還有充電再出發其實可以併領"},{"start":5672.31,"end":5697.325,"text":"因為以前不能併零 以前你只能二選一現在可以併零 甚至可以到你原本的薪資水準但是你那個沖天債出發 你那個金額都是小的我要告訴你的是有些家庭他原本就有負債或者是他有一些貸款要支付他可能會因為這樣子 他需要一筆資金來運用你講的那個是對他單一月薪的部分的補貼他也不是百分之百所以我現在希望你回去 我們可以補到他"},{"start":5698.246,"end":5723.665,"text":"我現在希望你回去思考的這一波的關稅衝擊因為我們現在比日韓高出10%然後連知名的上櫃的公司如果都撐不住我擔心更多中小型的後面也撐不住所以你們除了原來的薪資補貼現在七成之外我希望你們去研議就是有沒有可能再額外給勞工這一個無息的貸款讓他至少撐過這一波再說"},{"start":5723.865,"end":5748.985,"text":"如果他有需求不要讓他們去借地下錢莊不要讓他們去借高利貸不要因為這一次的關稅衝擊造成他財務上面更血上加霜這個部分可不可以回去再研議我們可以來針對整體對勞工的支持綜合性的再來思考我希望你們去思考因為你們的這個115年就業安定基金你們現在的編列我希望你們再調整你們其實是要簡列"},{"start":5750.43,"end":5766.386,"text":"促進國民就業的部分怎麼還會減劣呢現在關稅衝擊的問題這麼大你們怎麼反而是下降我現在知道的訊息是你們是下降的是減少的反而是減少的我希望你回去好好檢討你們救安基金115年度你要編連"},{"start":5766.806,"end":5789.559,"text":"那個跟文說明當然我們回去可以再看一下你現在列出來這幾項增加跟減少我們可以再去確認但的確有一個部分就像剛才說的我們其實也把一些過去大家認為是在救安基金的支出我們認為應該要用公務預算的我們也把它跟行政院爭取希望可以用公務預算所以挪出去之後你的錢更多啊那你就更應該放在這個促進國民救援還是說你這個9.381都是原來不應該編在這裡的不是不是這個意思不是這個意思那我們可以確認細節"},{"start":5795.762,"end":5812.595,"text":"你就徹底檢討好不好我覺得這一波的關稅衝擊真的不要小看現在對傳產的衝擊其實是大的因為我們是20%就是加N了然後所以這個部分我希望勞動部你責無旁貸對於關稅的衝擊 部長你把你更多的心力"},{"start":5813.576,"end":5839.468,"text":"政治的部分你碰少一點你把你更多的心力放在勞工朋友現在最在乎的事情上面我覺得這個就是一個勞動部長你應該做到我們對於關稅的衝擊我們勞動部是嚴正以待全力戒備然後我們也不會做樂觀的樂觀的設想現在沒有樂觀的本錢了20%完全沒有樂觀的本錢我們會把相對嚴峻的狀況拿來作為我們準備的設想好我們希望給勞工最大的支撐跟支持謝謝"},{"start":5840.578,"end":5845.862,"text":"好 謝謝王明文發言 也謝謝洪部長答詢下一位請邱振軍委員發言主席好請部長 我看你要不要喝水不用了好 那請洪部長"},{"start":5866.835,"end":5882.35,"text":"邱委員長部長好還是銜接剛剛我們王一鳴委員提到的因為美國對等關稅我們20加N的因素我們看到這個最新的統計減班休息的人數從4月1號到8月18號短短4個月從1989人暴增到3934人幾乎翻倍"},{"start":5891.559,"end":5899.043,"text":"那而且有91%集中在這個製造業那減班休息的公司或工廠也從123家增加到191家成長55%其中因為美國關稅政策衝擊的高達73家2388人"},{"start":5909.289,"end":5931.19,"text":"那顯示這波關稅的衝擊是結構性的產業衝擊而且只是剛開始我要問的是照這樣的趨勢下去勞動部有沒有做過評估剛剛我剛剛有聽到說你們嚴陣以待 全力以赴那什麼時候會達到高峰還是只能被動的等七月一件一件的來報才會知道"},{"start":5932.226,"end":5956.113,"text":"第一個跟委員說明 農部這幾個月來一直以來我們都做很多評估包括持續的跟工會產業還有相關的學者都在保持大家動態性的這個掌握跟這個彼此之間的互相的提醒所以我們的確我們也有 我們有進行相關的評估有沒有 有沒有一個數值"},{"start":5959.224,"end":5985.294,"text":"我們部裡面的評估比較不是一份報告或一個數字我們部裡面的是持續性比方說我每個禮拜都會跟相關的學者跟企業包括跟這些產業的專家跟工會來update他們的訊息包括受衝擊的訊息來做動態評估滾動式動態評估的掌握我每個禮拜都必須做這件事情我們的分數也是每個禮拜都要把地方上面產業受衝擊的狀況"},{"start":5987.475,"end":6013.63,"text":"都要匯報到部裡面都要匯報給我看我每個禮拜都要掌握這些事情那這個我還是要盯您就是說這個部分我認為未來會更嚴重我希望勞動部能夠確實掌握這樣的一個狀況那另外這些進入減班休息的企業有多少實質申請實際申請到我們僱傭安定基金的補貼金額是多少你說減班休息的企業嗎目前"},{"start":6017.861,"end":6040.73,"text":"好目前減班休息是要滿30天才能夠申請所以雇用安定措施的期程是從8月1號開始所以我們相關的數字等一下我們再回覆給委員好你等一下再給我啦因為時間有限我還是我會問這個我是希望你能夠確實掌握數據不要說等我們再問你們一問三不知好不好那另外"},{"start":6041.61,"end":6064.942,"text":"在這些受檢班休息的 影響了3934人裡面有多少勞工參加充電再出發訓練的計畫 有沒有比較少比較少 因為他有準備要做因為他參與充電再出發他有些時候他需要時間包括地點上面要吻合所以這也是為什麼我們現在認為對於勞工的經濟生活的支持我們現在會以"},{"start":6067.162,"end":6089.067,"text":"這個固定安定措施為主所以這也是為什麼我們把五成拉高到七成的原因所以以固定安定措施為主以充電再出發或我們在講的再充電為輔現在就是說這些是這個停班減班的問題那因為我也看到就是說有可能企業當他關門了我們就沒有聯繫了"},{"start":6090.287,"end":6102.253,"text":"現在這個問題我突然就是注意到這個問題我們現在目前應該這個部分沒有去做追蹤跟協助有沒有如果就把他企業倒閉了他的員工怎麼辦"},{"start":6103.969,"end":6124.241,"text":"我們都會去做追蹤 甚至我們是主動聯繫然後呢有沒有去做剛剛我講的就是訓練再出發我們會入場做輔導的我希望你們能因為我這樣講就是我們現在應該勞動部要優先來保障我們本國的勞工在這種情況下勞動部有沒有討論過暫緩產業移工的輸入有沒有討論過這個問題"},{"start":6130.305,"end":6149.745,"text":"跟委員說明的確現在我們在產業上面我們會看到有部分的產業它是會有勞工就會衝擊的這樣子的風險可是也還是會有蠻多產業它處於缺工狀態所以我們的確看到現在產業缺工狀況它會有不太一樣的情況我只是提醒你不太均勻的狀況"},{"start":6150.786,"end":6175.733,"text":"當然我們現在產業缺工狀況還是有但是我們更要保護我們本國的勞工我的論點在這裡還是希望說不能說一昧的就只是我們一直讓這個外國的勞工進來移工進來讓我們本土的勞工沒有照顧到這個部分部長一定要多注意勞動部所有的政策也包括跨國勞動力的政策都會以保障本國的就業權利為優先"},{"start":6177.173,"end":6181.639,"text":"所以如果我們現在貿然的但是我們現在貿然的把移工進入都停下來這對缺工產業的影響會很大好那"},{"start":6187.545,"end":6211.519,"text":"這個我們除了這個保障最低工資之外還有沒有其他協助 都沒有了嗎 目前是沒有7成 你剛剛講7成嘛7成不是最低工資是企業一定要付給勞工的那我們補貼的是針對他原本的薪資跟他減班休息後的薪資 這會有個薪資差額這薪資差額的7成是由我們來補貼"},{"start":6212.64,"end":6238.493,"text":"剩下來的三成他也可以申請充電再出發現在是可以併領的那我再問下一個問題就是說這個救安基金濫用的問題就是因為許民村跟謝宜龍勞動部都有做精簡的檢討報告但是呢過去的可能發生的弊案你們不能視而不見那羅景任團隊拿到勞動部的案子原本開口契約寫得清清楚楚"},{"start":6239.313,"end":6249.085,"text":"羅景任應該交付35支影片兩場公關活動還有廣播脫波網路脫波結果10記者交了一支影片一場記者會卻要核銷1069萬那這件事呢我們審計部也在報告裡面直接點名了難以驗核履約的結果"},{"start":6258.757,"end":6277.939,"text":"那昨天院長也公開在院會公開講要徹查羅景任的案子那既然院長都已經下令了我就要請問部長勞動部你們目前的作為會是什麼好 我先跟委員說明媒體現在寫到的39次他並不是39支影片的意思"},{"start":6279.256,"end":6300.19,"text":"對不起 35市 我說錯35市 它並不是35支影片的意思市是一個計價的單位它不是一市就是一支影片 並不是這個意思所以這部分有點誤會但第二 可是我們確實在去年底救安基金的這個大家關注以後那我們也對相關的支用都做了檢討"},{"start":6301.451,"end":6327.267,"text":"我們的確認為在救安基金在執行面那個開口契約在執行面上面我自己認為是可以有更好的做法的所以也因為有更好的做法所以我們在去年底就把114年的沒宣的開口契約停下來檢討了接下來我們也會依照審計部給我們的指示來進行檢討目前有多少在案子裡你們勞動部列管"},{"start":6327.907,"end":6332.032,"text":"就是在之前你來之前然後你停下的這些案子有多少在列管"},{"start":6333.632,"end":6363.092,"text":"停下來就停下來 到目前這個開口契約 還有嗎我跟委員說明這個開口契約的標案停下來之後到現在都還是停的我們都還在檢討中 這個案子我認為啦當然媒體這樣寫我不一定是最對的我也希望說這個案子發生了我認為我們部裡面的態度還是要有就是說驗收是誰簽名誰放行責任人員要不要要把他交代清楚希望把這個案子"},{"start":6364.093,"end":6379.952,"text":"對於外界 給外界一個完整的說明可以嗎跟文說明我想對於救安基金的改革我們在1月發布以後現在都在落實執行中這個我問過你很多次我也相信你會去做這件事情剛剛我講的事情就希望部長做到好不好因為我還有兩個問題因為時間不太夠就是說"},{"start":6383.656,"end":6405.085,"text":"去年12月31日立法院通過三讀修正的就業服務法也在1月20號總統也公佈實施了那立法的過程裡行政機關有權表達意見提出修正甚至有說立委支持反對但一旦國會完成三讀的時候就是人民透過代議的制度的最終決定那"},{"start":6406.185,"end":6425.581,"text":"我看到你們的報告裡面你們在法律通過之後還繼續用會衝擊有隱憂的理由去質疑甚至阻礙這個政策的落實我要講的就是說既然這個法案已經通過了我們當然要把衝擊做到最小這是我們的責任是部裡面的責任是對不對但碰到什麼問題我們也很願意跟你來協助來處理這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6427.722,"end":6453.697,"text":"我們在立法去年底通過後從1月開始總統1月20號公佈之後我們就馬上著手相關的配套包括增加來源國的供引進的數量也包括這個輕重分流重症優先甚至我們也編列了經費跟預算就是希望減少衝擊所以我們並沒有代付我們的責任我們勞動部就好好做事情把事情衝擊做到最佳如果真的碰到"},{"start":6454.497,"end":6479.431,"text":"什麼問題需要立法院這邊來協助我們當然也會願意一起來解決我們的同仁日以繼夜在準備這個這個修法上路以後的希望降低衝擊的這件事情我認為我們同仁真的很辛苦在準備這些工作上面最後一個問題就是勞基法第54條去年7月31日修正公布公布了那允許勞僱雙方協商後延後這個強制退休年齡"},{"start":6480.211,"end":6507.478,"text":"以鼓勵中高年齡勞工繼續留在職場那現在已經過了一年多了我請問部長全國各企業執行的情況如何企業的比例如何那延後退休的勞工數有多少現在這個部分的話我們還沒有正式的統計我們會再進一步那你你多久可以給我資料我們再回去的話再整理一下看看能不能有資料給多久多久一個月內好嗎"},{"start":6509.68,"end":6537.946,"text":"15天啦 好不好因為這已經放那麼久了嘛好 謝謝部長好 謝謝蔡政委員的發言謝謝紅部長的答詢 下一位我們請蘇清泉委員發言先預告一下待會等這個蘇清泉委員發言以後接著是廖偉祥委員發言等廖偉祥委員答詢完畢以後休息10分鐘蘇清泉請好 我今天生日有告白"},{"start":6541.276,"end":6548.526,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長部長辛苦了"},{"start":6554.752,"end":6581.819,"text":"來 我三個問題第一個就是我們這個就會附法46條就是這個外籍看護的問題這個原有是怎麼來早上陳慶威 陳昭志委員都有提那我跟大家報告這個是2024年選總統的時候活有餘提出來的證件那這個這一個案子的起草人是誰就是我"},{"start":6584.391,"end":6588.123,"text":"為什麼那個時候會停因為那個時候很多臨床醫師都非常困擾"},{"start":6589.448,"end":6613.618,"text":"非常非常痛苦 因為常常就是為了開個巴士票 亮票 包括我常常都被拜託 每天每天糾紛我說覺得這不是必要 那麼就造成很多臨床醫師的困擾那也有衝突過 甚至有動手的所以那個時候就提出來 提出來就大家都很贊成"},{"start":6615.492,"end":6642.579,"text":"那就在去年年底就通過了嘛現在這個案子已經在公告實施了那第二個問題這個法是我是覺得是OK的啦第二個問題就是說這些外籍的看護人來台灣之後他們會挑軟的重症的沒辦法過"},{"start":6643.621,"end":6659.108,"text":"是不是 我們會怕這個嘛那個委員不要說挑軟的啦他可能就是說其實人性上都會希望能夠去找相對這個比較容易然後我覺得不要說挑軟的啦沒有啦 這個是人性啦"},{"start":6660.154,"end":6683.491,"text":"我講一個我們醫界公會生包括醫師、藥師這些在服務的時候他們派到偏遠地區能夠服務第二階段的他們去了之後譬如說去到部立恆春醫院然後他們去了半年甚至一年他們就可以申請轉換地方了"},{"start":6685.276,"end":6707.995,"text":"實際上鄉村很需要人,但是他就跟你說,他們也有一個協會,他就說他家住得不舒服,院長對他不好等等,他可以轉,真的是可以轉,他也轉成了,所以這個他們能轉是他們的權利,外籍的看護也好,外籍勞工也好,他要申請轉換,"},{"start":6710.067,"end":6721.676,"text":"這個是本來他們就有這個權利的不是這個修法之後才有的所以第二個我要跟大家報告的就是說這個換僱主不是修這個法由才可以換僱主本來他就可以換所以這不是理由"},{"start":6727.563,"end":6742.062,"text":"第三就是你們過了之後你們的門檻也加了很多譬如說要先上網登記一個禮拜之後沒有本國的看護來apply你才可以開始排隊"},{"start":6743.543,"end":6769.238,"text":"我們沒有加 這不是增加的門檻這是原本就有的原本就有這是原本就有的 這不是增加的我在上次也有跟你執行過我說你們擔心說80歲以上可以這樣申請就可以直接申請外籍看護你會怕說會有10萬個人來apply對不對 你預估啦就是健康的 亞健康的我跟你說 我說"},{"start":6770.731,"end":6798.944,"text":"好客好手的人沒台沒錢要請一個外籍客人來陪他那不是笑的那不爽耶那不爽耶現在大家不是在玩好鬼耶委員那是真的有這樣的案例啊才一個幾個一千多個到現在一千多個你再看我們再看半年看多少人我可以跟你保證最後我要跟你報告的就是說外籍的勞工來台灣做營建業做什麼業現在有七八十萬人嘛"},{"start":6800.758,"end":6823.127,"text":"製造業就是整體的這個外籍的移工加起來是這個數字那他們的薪水是比照我們的基本工資嘛 對不對所以他們一戶可以拿到三萬塊如果加一半就三四萬所以他們那一戶他們的收入還不錯但是外籍看護他們的薪水多少"},{"start":6825.222,"end":6838.596,"text":"也沒有公司 目前是兩萬塊以上多少 兩萬塊或兩萬出頭兩萬出而已喔兩萬出喔 太少了啦我跟你報告我爸爸我媽媽都有請外籍九十幾歲 那個孫"},{"start":6840.714,"end":6866.662,"text":"那個外籍的看護我都覺得表演得很好我是給他基本工資的我給他要三萬塊所以很高興這就大家互相嘛他就顧得很認真我如果請台灣的我告訴你請台灣的各位客人請他休息七萬塊就沒得請七萬塊沒得請對不對我對你知不知道"},{"start":6868.243,"end":6883.474,"text":"對 但是委員你要考慮一下可能一些就是可能要更多面向的所以 我要跟你報告就是說我們這些外籍的看護19萬多 20萬多 21萬多這些人來台灣 我覺得我們要聽哨啦當然我們要聽喇喇啦當然你有搞這個安定會 你又搞什麼給他管吃管住 你給他2萬塊"},{"start":6897.146,"end":6910.277,"text":"我也覺得很少 因為日本就給4萬塊啦韓國也給4萬塊 但是日本 韓國給他查他沒有在分什麼外籍看護 外籍勞工啦他們好像都打死都是一個價嘛 是不是這樣 部長你知道嗎"},{"start":6914.09,"end":6926.959,"text":"他們的價格 他們的薪資的價格的確是比我們高尤其他們蠻多是機構在聘請的對 他們給到差不多4萬億啦對所以比我們多所以我們搶 搶不贏人啊所以現在這個外籍的看護一個月薪水你會覺得太貴嗎"},{"start":6936.277,"end":6963.697,"text":"的確這個很多的這個來源母國也跟我們反映希望能夠把這個外籍的看護的薪資的下限能夠再做提高這很多來源母國也跟我們來反映有這個期待所以現在一個請一個外籍看護就是兩萬塊左右然後就安定基金繳多少就安定會繳多少三千塊每個月是兩千兩千那一般勞工也是兩千嗎"},{"start":6965.612,"end":6972.595,"text":"那就2萬2然後管吃管住加起來差不多3萬3萬塊3萬多應該是說其實很多經濟弱勢勉強的也不少1.2萬1.2萬經濟弱勢勉強的有1.2萬那但是就是委員剛剛講的這整體的這個我想"},{"start":6985.639,"end":7011.152,"text":"外籍看護的整個制度當然我們也在持續性的在觀察也包括在部裡面也在討論怎麼經濟就像我剛才說其實來源的母國也一直有跟我們反應希望能夠讓這些外籍看護的薪資再提升但的確這裡面我們也在思考會有蠻多現在比方說他可能是比較弱勢的家庭他如果要請或者是他經濟收入比較沒有那麼好的可能沒有像委員這樣委員你畢竟我是自強戶"},{"start":7012.592,"end":7039.925,"text":"對…畢竟像你的經濟的水平我們都跟不上那是脫貧 剛脫貧那會有一些在經濟條件上可能不一定那麼好他們也是需要這個外籍的看護所以我們是綜合的評估考慮可是的確當然我們會持續的滾動來思考這些事情好 這個是要跟國際競爭那來源國就是這幾個國家但是我跟你報告"},{"start":7041.215,"end":7061.49,"text":"我們菲律賓人口1億,他在外面當勞工,不管是看護或者勞工,他有1000多萬人。印尼3億,差不多3億3的人口,他也很多在外面。印度14億人口,他在外面當外籍勞工的將近4000萬人。"},{"start":7062.921,"end":7071.849,"text":"所以那是很龐大的來源那我有查了一下像印尼那邊他們現在失業率蠻高他們要出來的人還不少所以應該是"},{"start":7075.232,"end":7098.568,"text":"請不上人這不過是我們的行事外資康復沒有競爭力請不到人會不會跟委員說明第一個我們其實從1月開始以後其實就跟我們的來源母國在協商希望他們引進的數量可以再提高所以增加引進的供給量這事情是我們一直在做的這是一直在做的"},{"start":7099.068,"end":7115.477,"text":"但這裡面確實也要思考到來源母國他們一些因為你進來要做外籍看護你有一定的訓練的能量因為這我們也不希望影響到品質所以這個我們一直在做但就像委員說的的確我們在台灣請外籍看護的薪資比方跟日韓比起來可能是差了一些"},{"start":7116.337,"end":7143.058,"text":"那我們比較不希望看到的狀況的確還是之前講的可是我要跟委員說明我們並不是把器重責輕當成是目標不是我們作為一個行政部門可能要把各種可能會發生的衝擊把它思考進來然後為可能的衝擊來做因應的準備所以我們沒有辦法去想得很樂觀說一定人會很少還是怎樣我們要把這個可能的挑戰"},{"start":7144.019,"end":7170.985,"text":"再多想一些多想一些如果我有條件對於比較多的人數進來或者多的需求出現的時候來做因應的時候如果人數比較少的話我也相對比較有充裕的條件我做行政部門不能只想簡單的我們要想比較嚴峻的狀況這是我們的責任我們當然希望我們本國的兆福園能夠充足啦但是我們本國兆福園要求是出來有關嘛"},{"start":7171.505,"end":7179.433,"text":"他也很會挑案子 他也很會計算所以本國的照顧人員也很會計算他們的待遇很高"},{"start":7182.479,"end":7202.963,"text":"現在剩下的食物都不錯,我們衛務部,我們次長在那邊,他們現在一直在調高,也希望我們這邊能充裕嘛,對不對?所以,我們台灣自己可以自己照顧老人,老的照顧比較老的,自己可以接受是最好啦,如果國務理事長請國外的,你就要去跟他們拚嘛,所以這是你們的套路啊。"},{"start":7206.226,"end":7223.592,"text":"你們的任務 你們的MISSION所以你要請教人 我們絕對支持要請教一百多個 八百多個 八百多個我們都要支持絕對要支持到底 這樣好不好好 謝謝委員支持好 謝謝蘇星文的發言謝謝洪部長的答詢下一位請廖偉祥委員發言"},{"start":7236.603,"end":7253.274,"text":"謝謝主席有請洪部長請洪部長廖委員早部長早部長我想要先針對今天主要兩個大題那第一題呢我想要先針對救安基金"},{"start":7254.164,"end":7275.721,"text":"那救安基金被披露啊2022年到2024年之間補助電視劇靈日攻擊導演的羅景仁團隊獲得救安基金2872萬元的補助那我要先講這個前幾天有這個新聞出來的時候勞動部好像是問A答B你說你們沒有補助這個靈日攻擊但是其實他們在講就是說補助這個團隊"},{"start":7277.202,"end":7286.736,"text":"好那這個部分還是用開口契約來發包所以要請部長注意我剛剛講過我們不是說針對補助臨日公集這個隱疾而是針對"},{"start":7288.325,"end":7316.591,"text":"救安基金來補助羅導演拍勞動部影片的部分在程序上提出很嚴正的質疑開口契約就台北市政府訂定的採購注意事項解釋是用於契約所列的履約期間數量不定由機關依實際需要隨時通知廠商履約的採購那我想相信不管是中央或地方這個大概都是類似的概念和規定"},{"start":7317.631,"end":7337.609,"text":"所以換句話說這是一個可以依照政府機關自身的需求做出彈性的採購但是針對於得標廠商而言他是不用列出相關的計劃內容或者成效目標的空白支票那最終也可能導致行政機關勞動部驗收的時候無法核驗的情況"},{"start":7338.47,"end":7357.429,"text":"那我想這也都是審計部年度報告跟救安基金專門審計報告一而再再而三點出來的內容包含之前有提到淨什麼前進的光相關的音樂會濫用的部分所以我想要請問一下部長這個媒體宣傳的經費跟使用方式是不是由部本部統籌是嗎"},{"start":7359.791,"end":7376.648,"text":"先跟廖委員說明第一個我並不是問A打B因為就像委員看到當天的媒體的下標左邊這個標所以因為這個媒體的標題很多人在讀到這個標的時候都來問我們 都來問勞動部為什麼勞動部補助零日工級"},{"start":7377.589,"end":7406.11,"text":"很多人來問我們這個問題但是這個標讓很多人在讀起來的時候都來問我們說為什麼所以我們才要說勞動部沒有補助臨時工級因為當天真的很多人來問我們這個問題所以我才要講這是第一點那第二點剛剛委員在問到開口契約的問題的時候的確我們後來在去年底做了開口契約的部長我想先請問第一個問題我剛說是不是這個煤圈的費用和經費和使用都是有不本不統籌是吧"},{"start":7406.63,"end":7414.709,"text":"那我想要先再問一下那當初這個是誰當初是不同意對那是誰簽准同意這個開口合約的方式針對這個案子"},{"start":7418.274,"end":7445.18,"text":"我想我還是必須說就是針對當初的這個開口契約的使用那我們其實在去年年底我們就做出了檢討部長你先回答我嘛當初這個這個導演他相關的案子他的開口合約和這樣子的媒體採購 媒宣採購的部分是誰同意使用這個開口合約方式我現在手上可能沒有這個資料你沒有但你知道嗎我現在手上沒有這個資料那你們知道嗎你們有去調查嗎"},{"start":7446.533,"end":7461.903,"text":"有嗎我跟委員說明現在這些相關的救安基金的案子你先不要用說在檢調那裡因為看起來你們也搞不清楚狀況我只是想問說因為剛剛部長也有說你們有這個要做懲處啊或是內部要去做檢調那到底是誰你們知道嗎"},{"start":7463.084,"end":7482.669,"text":"不知道的話怎麼懲處怎麼去做我們做了檢討了檢討你是叫制度面嗎我們對於接下來開口契約的使用方式包括適用的範圍我們做出了檢討我們認為比方說像是一些影片我們就認為不太適合再放在這個政策宣導的開口契約裡面"},{"start":7483.869,"end":7506.577,"text":"除了影片之外的沒選呢還是有很多開口契約嗎除了影片我們認為一些影片包括一些活動的辦理不適合放在開口契約部長因為你還是沒有回答我問題好我再問下一題我等一下再回來問你這一題純粹看補助的成效其實也非常的糟糕在2022年的時候拍攝勞動節主題影片製作阿仿洗衣店他單支影片補助是1069就是1069萬按讚數僅488"},{"start":7512.139,"end":7532.758,"text":"那2023年呢 這個羅導演又接續接了勞動節的主題影片紙紮片補助971萬元 按讚數是1761那2024年呢 又補助了 又拍攝了第三支影片勞動萬歲搬家片 花了831萬 按讚數只有202個"},{"start":7536.681,"end":7548.566,"text":"那平均一個站最便宜是6000塊最貴4.1萬我想這樣的成果是民眾百姓是看不下去的是沒辦法看下去這也是為什麼我們要去"},{"start":7549.656,"end":7572.044,"text":"看緊荷包所以包含部長這個羅導演在臉書說他拍攝超過1500支廣告客戶來自全球世界各地是純粹的商業廣告導演許多的作品在好像各地都有獲獎那我想要問請問為什麼拍出的成果這麼糟糕那只有幾種可能嗎第一個"},{"start":7572.904,"end":7590.592,"text":"拍攝的成品有問題商業案他所謂號稱優秀的導演那面對公部門的標案是不是隨便亂做這是第一個可能第二可能勞動部在驗收的時候放水成品有瑕疵卻不知道第三個可能是成品好可能很優秀但勞動部拿到成品後卻不積極宣傳"},{"start":7591.852,"end":7612.78,"text":"那我想不管是哪一種都是讓人沒有辦法接受的所以部長我想問到底是哪一個單位負責驗收然後驗收報告可不可以提供給本席跟委員會成效這麼差成效這麼差你可以看到成效這麼糟糕這麼糟糕的成效為什麼可以連續三年拿到標案"},{"start":7613.5,"end":7637.515,"text":"跟委員說明第一個這個成效有點難只看一個單一的平台上面這些按讚數單一平台嗎那如果所有平台加起來多少我先跟委員說明這三支這三支影片都有獲得4A的創意獎其中一支甚至還入圍這個坎城創意獎我想這入圍這些獎項跟得這個獎都不是容易的事情這三支影片"},{"start":7637.935,"end":7655.044,"text":"所以你覺得是重點是在於宣傳還是是我要跟委員說的是說第一個這並不是三支很糟糕的影片不是像委員剛才口中說很糟糕的影片我說成效啊他得到很多的獎項那其實他的品質也是好的"},{"start":7655.512,"end":7683.083,"text":"那就成效或者是點閱數來說的話也不能只是看單一一個平台也包括他脫波的次數都包括在這裡面所以我要跟文說明說當然這個這位導演他在廣告界有他素有聲譽的地方來部長我跟你說第一個我剛有說成果很差有三種可能我也不是完全就是說這個得獎還是怎麼樣的成效"},{"start":7683.763,"end":7709.87,"text":"我是問說他的這個宣傳的成果是很差的不然你當初你拍這個片不是重點就是要宣傳嗎好那成果差我剛有說三種可能一個成品有問題會不會是優秀導演他做出來成品沒問題那你說成品沒問題成品沒問題那是不是你驗收的時候是怎麼驗收的是不是有放水還是說成品很優秀你沒有好好的經營沒有好好的宣傳所以我的問題是部長是哪一個單位驗收"},{"start":7710.29,"end":7731.358,"text":"那驗收的報告包含你剛剛說的不只是網路的成果還有包含脫波這些相關的成效我想問說驗收報告可不可以提供給本席跟委員會我想我們其實之前在我們包括審計的一些報告我們其實都有提供給立法院的然後再來剛剛說為什麼連續三年度還可以拿到開口契約"},{"start":7732.68,"end":7755.751,"text":"然後我想就我所知因為當時不是我主政好所以我想就我所知是因為這位導演第一個他真的在廣告界裡面素有聲譽而且他的拍攝的成果的品質也都做到很多的好評就我知道是這樣所以因為這樣子那所以只要說他素有聲譽他來拍就可以輕鬆得標是這樣子嗎我不知道"},{"start":7756.511,"end":7785.042,"text":"那所以我想要問的就是我不知道什麼輕不輕鬆但是就我知道之所以他拿到所以部長我想請問一下他的確是業界非常非常知名而且他的工作的成果也很好的這個部長我還是想要回到剛剛講的那到底是誰簽合的你們到底部內知不知道然後當初你們簽的剛剛前面委員也有講到他本來應該要履約的是35部影片兩場記者會但是最後呢只有一部影片一場記者會"},{"start":7785.982,"end":7809.273,"text":"那這個部分到底是誰驗收所以第一個問題 各位說明其實現在有點誤會35市那個市並不是指一市就是一部影片不是這個意思你可以看很多的開口卻並不是市代表的是一個計價單位那是多少一個計價單位大概是19萬多吧大概19萬4千多等一下部長那我還是你回到我的問題喔"},{"start":7810.833,"end":7826.623,"text":"這個細節我剛才不是問你說一試多少我是要問說那是誰驗收的因為你剛才說35部影片那不是35部影片35試那我想要請問到底是誰驗收所以你認為他得到這些金額他目前繳交的成果是完全合理的跟委員說明我們正是"},{"start":7827.963,"end":7851.413,"text":"那為什麼你剛剛又要說你們有回去要懲處相關的在前面的委員在問的時候我跟廖委員說明我是說你剛才問我說這個導演這個導演他真的在業界是素有聲譽的那他拍出來的這三支影片的確也得獎很多這是事實他的確得獎很多但是這個開口契約在執行面的做法我們認為我到部裡面以後"},{"start":7852.389,"end":7880.646,"text":"我認為是可以有更好的執行的方式的那請問是誰去簽的這個是誰核准這個開口契約我現在可能我手邊沒有這個那你什麼時候可以給本席辦公室跟委員會我們可能回去來看一下相關的資料但是我要說的事情是說我們其實已經把相關的開口契約停下來檢討了所以我再進來問一下請問部長現在還有其他的沒選是用開口契約的嗎今年是沒有了沒有了你剛剛是說年初還有你是先暫停"},{"start":7881.887,"end":7904.165,"text":"我去年底去年底在114年的開口契約的標案我就把它給廢標停下來到現在都還是停的我們都停下來檢討了所以這個部分現在都不會再用開口契約不是我講的不是未來不會是我們在檢討在美宣上面還需要嗎讓我說明我們認為在開口契約的使用上面"},{"start":7905.146,"end":7921.069,"text":"未來可能不適合再把影片或者是活動放到因為影片跟活動其實它比較沒有一個公定的價格所以可能會造成大家比較多在理解上面或者是包括在驗收上面比較就像審計部說的那樣"},{"start":7921.79,"end":7939.185,"text":"所以這是為什麼我們做出檢討以後我們就把標案給停下來那我們未來接下來就算要用開口契約也會把這幾個項目從開口契約的範圍拿出來我認為這樣子的情況是非常的有疑義的這中間到底有沒有圖利問題是不是應該要請部長請政風移送檢調進行刑事調查"},{"start":7940.606,"end":7964.925,"text":"跟文說明現在這個我們在救安基金的致用的問題上面其實檢調都一直是有立案在調查所以有包含這個案子嗎也有全部的資料全部都有配合檢調調查是好那到時候再把剛剛我們我剛剛本席提的就是說到底是誰核准這些開口契約用這種沒宣的費用的方式到時候給本席和委員會報告好不好我們回去再看一下相關的事再來就是這個開口契約使用我們是徹底的檢討中的"},{"start":7968.208,"end":7987.491,"text":"再來再問一下接下來是針對我們今天的主題巴士量表針對這個部分當初勞動部一直在修法前到現在都說會有10萬的人申請會衝擊重症家庭那我想要請問一下部長第一週到底是申請的多少人那到8月17節止到底有多少人申請"},{"start":7988.653,"end":8004.473,"text":"我們現在看到的數據 第一週確實是比較少那第二週就是第一週的兩倍 比較少是多少應該是四百多 四百多四五百 四五百 四百多 四五百然後第二週是 以前就是第一週的兩倍那我想要請 所以到8月17為止總共是多少現在是1450左右 1450"},{"start":8007.176,"end":8033.507,"text":"那所以兩週下來大約1450一個月大約是可能不到3000件2800件2900件左右那我會說現在啦我會說目前這樣推估我當然知道接下來你很難預估未來的狀況我們現在比較難急下去預估未來一定他的趨勢的走向那我想要請教一下因為確實這個趨勢在12週來說是上升的那80歲以上跟70歲以上的這個癌症患者"},{"start":8034.187,"end":8037.921,"text":"就是可以符合申請條件的目前有申請並通過的又是幾件"},{"start":8040.613,"end":8064.193,"text":"時間點都還沒有辦法 他現在都還在求財登記的階段他現在是在求財接濟 後面才會取得這個求財的證明那後面才是招募許可所以部長其實我想要講的事情是其實今天的報告你完全沒有提到這些相關的數字喔今天你們提供的報告只有在質詢的時候你才把剛剛的數字講出來所以我希望這個部分應該是要用"},{"start":8065.114,"end":8088.196,"text":"科學務實理性的方式去看數字的變化而不是一直喊這種狼來了10萬多人過去立法就是用這種政治性的語言我覺得現在既然政策要上路了我們就是務實的面對所以第一週你說400多人第二週是1000人所以總共目前為止17號其實17號是1450人那我想要講的事情是其實在實務上"},{"start":8089.724,"end":8112.426,"text":"目前也有人說地方上就是說你有資格申請但是在申請程序上你剛說前面先7天登記在這個國內的求財7天先求財7天沒有然後才會去進一步的審查對不對然後在審查上面審查會上面審查員這個是這個地方民眾的反應就是說也有可能會有技術性的阻擋不會"},{"start":8113.487,"end":8131.125,"text":"不會 所以就是只要過了就會重開我跟委員說明其實對於輕症的來說就是按照過去過去怎麼做現在就怎麼做輕症的部分我們做的是把重症做優先可是我們不會去阻擋也不會去卡輕症的好 那我想要說的是包含台南的就業服務工會的這個理事長"},{"start":8131.986,"end":8146.948,"text":"他是有提到在報道上面有提到他就說假設第一年這個其實只有申請他說以目前他們的推估這是業界的推估不是我的推估他說以目前這樣看起來前面的這些數字第一年可能申請的就是2萬到3萬人"},{"start":8148.55,"end":8168.686,"text":"那本席是想問說那具體而言這部分補得足嗎然後再來是因為本來年初通過這個法案你有大概7個月的準備期嗎那這個部分你們究竟成果如何因為你擔心是來源不足或是移工看護的量能不足那你也多了7個月的時間我想請問你補得上這個"},{"start":8170.154,"end":8186.449,"text":"目前的進度是怎麼樣跟文說明在去年底通過然後1月20號總統公告後我們馬上就找四個移工的來源國在商議要增加這個引進的量我們馬上就跟他們討論了"},{"start":8187.45,"end":8212.549,"text":"部長我不是要問你過程我想問結果就是說成果是什麼因為當初一通過你說需要給勞動部時間去消化嘛那我只是想問說因為你看我們8月1號上路目前為止是1450好那我們假設預估啦假設預估用所謂業界的標準來看假設一年是2到3萬人那想要請問這個部分勞動部準備的怎麼樣過去7個月成果如何"},{"start":8213.089,"end":8231.693,"text":"然後未來是不是可以就是這個來源訓練因為你剛剛有說其實你剛剛部長也有說到目前的來源國他可能是也有足夠的量可是你也要兼顧訓練的品質嘛對不對所以看起來我都不敢用足夠這兩個字但我們會盡量的跟他協商增加"},{"start":8232.193,"end":8249.141,"text":"所以沒有換言之其實重點問題到底在哪是不是訓練的量能是嗎我跟委員說明其實這七個月左右的時間我們做了幾件事情第一個剛才跟來源母國來協商增加第二個我們也建立了輕重分流重症優先的"},{"start":8251.467,"end":8268.27,"text":"這個機制審查流程這跟很謝謝衛福部一起協助第三個我把讓委員讓我說我們也擴編了預算包括擴編了人力來補充包括這個照管中心他可能所需要的人力包括我們自己需要審案件的人力"},{"start":8269.031,"end":8294.241,"text":"所以經費跟人力我們也增加了這都是7個月左右的時間我們的配套包括這些人力也還要訓練喔這些增加的人力都還要訓練這就是在這7個月裡面我們在進行的事情部長好那我在這裡說謝謝感謝勞動部的所有同仁這個大家辛苦了那也感謝大家因為其實這個是一個在民間是一個德政但是我還是想要問我們務實的討論嘛我剛剛說了那個就業服務"},{"start":8298.022,"end":8326.096,"text":"那個同業工會這個台南理事長今天報導寫他說如果以目前的量來看預計可能是2萬到3萬人一年那我就只是剛剛一個簡單的問題就是說面對這樣的狀況假設是2到3萬的需求量請問現在勞動部過去7個月你剛剛做的那些可能都是方法或者是你有做了哪些努力我只是想問說那你成果是怎麼樣你目前估計起來這2萬到3萬人你有沒有辦法消化"},{"start":8327.896,"end":8355.144,"text":"我想我們還是要真的還是要努力啦請問有沒有相關的數字給本席啊就是說你過去7個月你剛剛說你做了這麼多的努力好那我想要請問那你這7個月你有多了多少的移工看護因為這基本上是供需問題嘛不是移工看護不是從不是這7個月移工看護是要到8月1號才開始進來所以那你預估你過去的努力可以增加有沒有辦法消化我剛剛意思也是這樣就是說你未來"},{"start":8356.738,"end":8380.154,"text":"我剛剛再次講他們預估的數據打這是一年兩到三萬人多這個需求的申請那想要請問勞動部請就我的問題就是說你過去七個月的準備你認為接下來這一年你有沒有辦法提供這樣子的量我們會全力以赴啦我們相關的準備我們會全力以赴部長有沒有預估的數字不能就是只有講全力以赴我一直想要表達就是說數據在這裡"},{"start":8386.519,"end":8403.272,"text":"像我們有補助衛福部的這個照管中心的一些人力包括我們部裡面審查的人力其實這些人力補助的多跟少我們也一直在密切的看那就是看這個案源的量增加多少"},{"start":8404.133,"end":8430.549,"text":"按援的量增加多少大家現在的確有各種預估有些人預估比較高一點有些人比較預估低一點但從勞動部的角度我們應該要把狀況設想的比較如果人比較多我們可以因應的話那就相對有比較好的條件來去面對人比較少的狀況我覺得是這樣就是說勞動部應該要做好所謂的高預估中預估然後可能低預估那你就是剛剛你說的勞動部要"},{"start":8431.71,"end":8453.027,"text":"这个严谨的面对嘛所以假设是高预估那你究竟现在的量能可以符合是什么到底是可以符合你的低预估呢还是中预估还是你高预估现在做不到那我们就要去想那怎么解决嘛我要跟委员说明的确我们现在在收到的一些案子包括来城前案子里面也包括比方说会有一些他的看护的雇主他在表达说"},{"start":8454.247,"end":8472.238,"text":"因為這個修法之後所以有些看護部長不好意思我是覺得我們不要一直用這種個案式的就要有人來反映這個有人來反映那個我其實想要表達就是這樣因為這是實況啊那實況是我剛剛一直問你這是實況我在講的是實況究竟你量能的數據可不可以符合嗎我們會盡力"},{"start":8474.994,"end":8497.197,"text":"好部長因為時間我知道我也過很久可是我還是想要告訴大家其實可以看到我剛問的問題是勞動部是沒有具體的數據我知道勞動部的大家都很辛苦但是我是希望說一樣務實理性面對所以剛剛說的都是數字現在已經上路了8月17號1450人申請好那究竟一年推估大約多少我剛也說了"},{"start":8498.298,"end":8519.937,"text":"這個業界說可能是一年兩到三萬那究竟勞動部假設兩到三萬好了是中推估好那你可不可以符合你目前過去七個月所做的努力你剛講了你做了很多的努力好我們都沒有要抹殺但是究竟你可不可以補上一年兩三萬的這個缺口我們會盡力全力以赴這是我其實本席重要的問題我們會盡力全力以赴但是不能夠只說全力以赴啦"},{"start":8521.338,"end":8546.204,"text":"我沒有要你講太滿我們也是務實理性嘛我剛剛就說了低推估中推估高推估那你究竟目前為止你過去7個月的努力你究竟是可以做到低推估中推估還是高推估部長你剛剛都沒有回答我你只有回答我全力以赴我知道大家都很辛苦但委員說明我沒有辦法把話講得太滿那因為這裡面的確還有不確定性那沒有部長那你可不可以告訴我你不能講太滿那你可不可以告訴我你的低推估中推估高推估你可以滿足的是什麼"},{"start":8547.044,"end":8567.917,"text":"其實我剛剛一直要問的是這個這是我為什麼要講剛剛的例子因為你要講滿足滿足這個話要這是這個不容易我說數量我說為什麼不容易讓我說明為什麼不容易因為其實現在是有很多的這些聘僱看護的長者他確實現在遇到看護會跟他說我真的想轉出了"},{"start":8569.761,"end":8592.26,"text":"真的表達他想轉出或者是他要求增加薪資這個事情其實對於很多聘僱的家庭來說對他來講也是一個新的情境的衝擊部長所以剛剛我提到的就是你的供應也是修法以後產生的狀況你過去7個月準備供應來源有沒有辦法補上就可以彌補你剛剛說的狀況因為如果你的供應來源是足夠的他可能就沒有這個所謂的狀況發生"},{"start":8595.642,"end":8615.609,"text":"但是這確實還是有母國的因素他不全然控制在我們手上好謝謝今天在場有很多官員我相信剛剛我的問題應該是蠻單純的就是說這個供應究竟足不足夠那我希望的是部長請大家一起共同務實理性面對現在既然有數字了那究竟數字預估多少以及你可不可以趕上請"},{"start":8616.849,"end":8645.254,"text":"那個櫃部可以提供本席報告好不好針對我剛剛的問題因為你剛剛沒有辦法回答我好那我希望可以提供給本席跟委員會你們究竟可以提在這一年過去七個月準備接下一年可能會遇到的量能你究竟準備了多少這個我覺得是比較務實的我們把我們準備的量能可以好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝廖委員還有部長剛剛主席是有宣布廖委員講完之後休息十分鐘那我看黃雄委員在現場"},{"start":8646.56,"end":8657.293,"text":"然後部長等一下要離開嘛 對不對那是不是要不要好 我們就更正一下 重新宣告黃修昂委員執行完之後 我們再休息好 有請謝謝主席 我們先請洪部長來 請部長"},{"start":8675.556,"end":8696.59,"text":"黃委員好 部長好 部長這個就業服務法第46條那現在開始上路80歲以上長者聘用外籍看護就是免巴氏量表那當然就是說我們也會擔心就是說一些重症的家庭會聘僱這個外籍看護可能會有一些困難"},{"start":8697.23,"end":8712.485,"text":"那我也看到就是說勞動部這邊有做一些就是對於這個重症的家庭有一些配套措施那我是不是可以再請部長針對這一部分因為有一些民眾會擔心那我是不是可以先請部長簡單做一個說明"},{"start":8715.348,"end":8729.565,"text":"那我還是跟大家說明就是其實對於可能這個這個修法是要修法後那可能會對於重症家庭的衝擊我想勞動部跟衛福部我們很積極的做了一些相關的配套那其中包括"},{"start":8730.326,"end":8737.951,"text":"我想我们现在规划了一个轻重分流重症我们优先来做审查希望能尽量降低他来申请"},{"start":8760.086,"end":8785.169,"text":"所以你們人力都已經編足了我們都已經編了那目前有已經上路之後有遇到什麼樣的狀況嗎其實的確因為上路到現在大概兩個多禮拜兩個多禮拜的時間那第一個禮拜的申請的數字比較少那第二個禮拜申請的數字就是第一個禮拜的兩倍可是未來的趨勢會如何還要一點時間來觀察那我想"},{"start":8785.849,"end":8812.874,"text":"我們部裡面的同仁包括衛福部的同仁我們還是現在是很積極的來盡量的趕快來協助尤其是重症家庭的申請的量所以重症的家庭的確比方說他們在求財的登記上面他只要一天所以他有一些比較相對快速通關的機制這也希望能夠讓重症的家庭能夠更加的方便但是的確我們還是會有擔心就是說如果未來的量增加的時候會不會影響或會不會排行"},{"start":8814.214,"end":8839.661,"text":"對 或者是現在有一些在聘僱外籍看護的長者那他們的確現在也收到可能看護會來反映說是不是有接下來在上路後他們有點會想轉出等等的這個這樣子的資訊我們也陸陸續續從各地有收到這樣的訊息那我想我們還是會就整體的狀況來因應那我們希望尤其是對中正的家庭能夠給最多的支持"},{"start":8839.841,"end":8851.255,"text":"OK 好 謝謝部長因為我最主要是讓部長能夠充分的做一個說明因為地方還是會有一些疑慮那謝謝部長接下來我們請那個呂次長來呂次 謝謝"},{"start":8859.662,"end":8879.112,"text":"市長好 市長原本我今天是想要問邱部長的就是前幾天我們看到有關公費生就是衛福部原本有一個重點培育的公費醫師的計畫好像今年已經要停辦"},{"start":8880.433,"end":8909.6,"text":"那目前就是有幾所學校已經跳出來就是說像中山中興然後還有清大他們原本就是因為這個重點特別培育的公費醫師制度計畫然後設一個這個後醫學系那因為這個計畫停止之後變成說他們沒有這個公費生的就沒辦法再繼續招公費生那我記得我在上個月有針對這一部分有"},{"start":8911.141,"end":8925.691,"text":"質詢這個部長就是說因為地方有一個疑慮就是說如果這個重點科別培育的公費醫師制度計畫如果停止之後可能偏鄉未來可能偏鄉找不到醫生"},{"start":8926.852,"end":8946.289,"text":"因為我們現在這個重點科別就是針對這個可能婦科兒科集中南韓這樣的一個專科醫師去做培育那我們也看到就是說現在很多偏鄉的這個醫師以彰化為例我一直在彰化這個西南角的幾個鄉鎮這個醫師"},{"start":8950.293,"end":8968.928,"text":"有的可能是一家診所兩家診所醫師都已經七八十歲了那有的就是靠衛生所的醫師來支撐地方的這樣的一個醫療那我要再次的提醒就是說未來我們這個重點科別培育的公費醫師制度計畫如果取消之後"},{"start":8970.228,"end":8989.994,"text":"也許在十年後偏鄉可能就找不到一生因為我們看到現在這個兒科這個兒醫的這個主任都還要值班了台大這個兒醫的主任都還要值班了甚至我們彰化彰基的這個兒科的主任也都要值班"},{"start":8990.874,"end":9008.621,"text":"那像這樣子兒科的醫師都快找不到了也招不滿了那未來如果我們政府不再用這個制度來做這樣子公費醫生的培育的話我真的很擔心十年後可能偏鄉真的找不到醫師因為"},{"start":9009.761,"end":9026.648,"text":"而醫師他可能要集中在都會區偏鄉誰要去彰化不是那種在高山或深山的地方只是交通比較不方便只是距離都市比較偏遠一點"},{"start":9028.962,"end":9052.37,"text":"未來三區的話沒有公費醫師沒有這樣子一個公費醫師的話那偏鄉誰要去我是不是可以簡單請呂次雖然你不是負責這一部分的那我也還是請你先回應一下非常感謝秀芳委員對於我們這個議題的關心我想確實就是我們當時要辦公費培育計畫其實確實有考慮到偏鄉的需求"},{"start":9052.89,"end":9073.418,"text":"那我跟委員報告我們想我們現在目前都還在廣納各方的這個意見委員剛剛所說的這個確實你剛說集中南韓還有這一個偏向部分這個確實也是我們也是部長非常非常關心的議題那我們會來就相關的一個情形其實跟委員報告我們會來做這個相關的通盤檢討來做審慎的評估是好"},{"start":9077.707,"end":9092.789,"text":"現在是這三所學校就是我講的因為因應你們這個計畫然後去設的這個這個這個後一系結果是因為變成這個我們這個計畫結束之後這三所後一系的這個部分就沒有公費生了嘛"},{"start":9093.51,"end":9106.136,"text":"那當然就是說衛福部跟教育部這邊有去做一個協調那還是有一些困難點所以我希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分應該要再去好好的做思考我記得在2017年當時邱部長跟這個林靜儀次長他們當時還在當這個委員的時候"},{"start":9114.139,"end":9140.785,"text":"那也有特別針對這個公費醫師有做一些懲請你看 經過這樣子幾年之後你反而要將這個公費醫師我們應該是要讓這些公費醫師這個制度更完善然後所有的福利或者是所有的資源應該要更好讓這些公費醫師不會因為綁了10年之後10年到他就要趕快離開這個地方"},{"start":9142.626,"end":9164.317,"text":"應該讓他的資源或者是他能夠更多讓他覺得說我在這邊可以好好的發揮那整個薪資也還不錯讓他願意留在這邊我覺得應該要朝這個方向去進行而不是說我乾脆就把這個公費一失把它取消掉我覺得這個未來會是一個很嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":9165.758,"end":9189.339,"text":"我們這個急重男孩兒科這些都已經快找不到醫生了那你又把這個公費重點培育的這些科別的醫師又把它取消掉我覺得這個是未來一個非常大的一個問題那我也希望這個呂氏今天回去之後應該要再跟部長應該再好好的去做一個討論是不是公費醫師的這個部分重點培育的這個計畫應該還要再繼續"},{"start":9191.121,"end":9208.299,"text":"好的OK好OK我会把那个委员刚刚您的那个这个意见赶快跟部长报告部长也会做一个最好的一个的一个衡量跟判断好不好是好因为我们都希望这个偏乡的医疗跟都市的医疗大家都应该是相等的"},{"start":9208.439,"end":9225.293,"text":"當然當然不是說偏鄉的醫療會是不一樣的因為當然我們這個也是衛福部一直希望就是說能夠讓這個偏鄉的醫療大家都是都相同的接受的這個醫療資源都是相同的"},{"start":9225.773,"end":9239.485,"text":"那如果未來這樣子的話可能偏鄉找不到醫生或者是資源變少那到時候會是一個非常嚴重的一個問題所以我們現在發現問題之後我們也希望衛福部針對這一部分要趕快去做一個"},{"start":9240.606,"end":9250.456,"text":"我要非常感謝那個委員長期以來對這個議題的關心特別是對彰化還有特別委員說的西南這邊的鄉鎮這個是針對全台灣的部分我也知道西南這邊有比較不足這個部分我想我們會來審慎研議對"},{"start":9258.424,"end":9278.903,"text":"這個不是只有針對彰化彰化其實還不像一些有就是比較原鄉的那個部分原鄉的那個部分可能會更嚴重所以我現在提的就是偏鄉還有我們比較艱困的科別原本你這個計畫就是針對這樣子的一個需求那如果你今天把它取消掉的話我覺得"},{"start":9280.565,"end":9287.437,"text":"我覺得這個真的是要好好去思考一下 好不好好 謝謝 感謝秀芳委員的關心謝謝 也謝謝主席好 謝謝次長 謝謝黃委員我們現在休息"},{"start":10088.291,"end":10104.586,"text":"好 我們繼續開會接下來請林書文委來做詢問好 我們是不是請這個洪部長來 請部長林委員好"},{"start":10112.704,"end":10132.515,"text":"今天很多委員好像撿到槍一樣 馬上說到底有沒有缺10萬個移工這個事情會一朝一夕馬上就發生的事情嗎然後大家在講 講的好像是移工都源源不絕移工這個市場真的源源不絕嗎這個移工的市場全世界都在搶工"},{"start":10134.269,"end":10151.983,"text":"我們今天更應該比說是不是馬上就缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論比現在有沒有馬上因為這一個月開放了就馬上立即缺十萬個工更重要的事情要討論的是我們的確看到了有一些現象"},{"start":10152.924,"end":10179.894,"text":"那這一現象包括說整個國家移工的制度都不是掌握在政府手上整個國家的移工政策制度全部都掌握在大家習慣都是找仲介仲介這一環對移工的生態產業還有整個移工的訓練和專業影響非常大所以所有的案件雇主要去找移工也都是找仲介也不是透過這個政府"},{"start":10182.575,"end":10208.485,"text":"所以仲介掌握的資源都比家庭多比你政府還更全面性的影響在僱主和移工之間扮演很重要的角色現在來了有這種新聞媒體上的報導有一個重症家屬逼透過仲介公司請看護工移工到看護工到僱主這個需要需求的這個"},{"start":10209.545,"end":10223.758,"text":"家中服務以後不適應然後仲介也沒有協調解決最後解除契約反國然後但是重症者這個家庭就面臨到了照顧的空窗期"},{"start":10225.134,"end":10253.713,"text":"那也希望仲介可以重新幫忙找移工可是現在仲介卻以重症個案特殊無人願意接案 且無適合人選為由消極應對 都幫人家找沒人沒人要顧這件事這樣 事情就是這樣啊重症看護的家庭沒有人要接那僱主在這種狀況裡面真的是說我到底是欲哭無淚 求助無門啊"},{"start":10255.394,"end":10271.405,"text":"那現在還有很多的移工來台灣做了幾天以後呢他說我不適應想要換新僱主但是現在很多僱主也是這樣子看護工做不到幾天就說要轉換僱主你如果不讓他轉換僱主就完蛋了如果完蛋不讓他做"},{"start":10275.424,"end":10297.033,"text":"他就把你逃走所以你也只能讓他同意他轉換雇主然後不同的仲介再引進不同的這個移工看護工來每個人都要重新適應重新教導重新學習然後大家都住不穩定因為很多移工到台灣來他辛苦所為何來啊要賺錢比較多錢啦"},{"start":10300.161,"end":10326.543,"text":"這樣在康復工大家都知道廠工跟康復工有加班薪水甚至是雙倍而且廠工勞動條件依照勞基法有保障工時短再怎麼加班都比康復工還要短然後有休假然後薪水又高大家都想要"},{"start":10327.614,"end":10346.219,"text":"跳板啦 康復工其實也很多長工把康復工申請當跳板來了以後不可以轉換僱主就要刷去工廠 賺更多 休困更多更多的所以在這種狀況我們真正的現實是這種狀況真的很多僱主 長照康復工的僱主"},{"start":10356.704,"end":10362.01,"text":"即便有看護工但是也經常要遇到這一種衝突怎麼辦"},{"start":10364.733,"end":10386.051,"text":"這就是大問題 這種問題現在你以為是重症跟輕症相互排擠而已嗎相互搶工而已嗎 不是是家庭看護工跟廠工的雇主在相互搶工這個問題更嚴重 那要怎麼辦"},{"start":10389.451,"end":10416.552,"text":"跟委員說沒有的確剛剛在委員在講的現象我們的確都有看到了那尤其這裡在修法之後其實有些現象其實有在更更嚴重的狀況這事情是我們是都看到的那我們提現在接下來包括發言書裡面我們也希望能夠把包括剛剛在講我們職聘的職聘的資源包括我們職聘中心接下來都希望把功能再做一些強化"},{"start":10417.052,"end":10435.642,"text":"職聘也一樣啊職聘也是有少了剝削那一環少了仲介那一環啊可是基本結構是家庭看護工沒有沒有像廠工一樣適用勞基法家庭看護工的薪水就遠比廠工加班的時候遠遠的還要少"},{"start":10436.582,"end":10465.457,"text":"那作為一個移工他就是要賺比較多的家庭康復工能夠給付的薪水就不及於廠工所以如果廠工的雇主特別是在COVID-19那期間連仲介假裝幫你介紹家庭康復工來解約之後同意轉換雇主之後仲介都馬上跟他一樣跟雇主完結 解約馬上送他馬上引進到工廠去"},{"start":10466.556,"end":10491.319,"text":"生產線上這種狀況這種結構怎麼處理跟文說明的確這個結構的根源這個結構的根源其實是來自現在這些相對應的照顧的制度裡面變成是其實有很多一般的家庭看護工的雇主尤其是如果他的經濟條件比較沒那麼好的可是他可能還是必須請外籍看護工"},{"start":10492.04,"end":10498.859,"text":"所以變成是這些僱主跟這個移工看護工之間這個他變成是一個好像"},{"start":10500.049,"end":10524.566,"text":"你多一點我就少一點的問題這是為什麼我們勞動部一直希望需要更多的長照資源來引入因為如果沒有辦法透過政府的長照資源更多的來引入這一個相互就它就變成是一個相互好像你多一點我就會少一點的這個結構那不管是從看護工的角度或者是從這個僱主的角度來說都會非常非常的辛苦所以這是我們一直在跟衛福部談"},{"start":10525.046,"end":10548.339,"text":"希望有更多長照資源導入的原因其實講的愛愛妹妹模模糊糊大家在講弱弱相殘因為每一個移工都是弱勢他到台灣來所為何事啊就要賺這麼多回去照顧他的家庭嘛那每一個看護工的雇主身障的家庭重症的家庭他就是弱勢當中的弱勢你說國家要承擔起長照的責任政府就沒愛就沒辦法"},{"start":10550.66,"end":10571.364,"text":"外服部也沒愛 沒辦法難道這樣子我們就讓他這樣子手段都用完了嗎所以我今天要講說我們現實的層面康務工來了又走 來了又走 很多我們的移工政策都一直著重在說引進 引進要穿進來 引進進來可是沒有遠遠不絕的康務工引進以後逃跑或是轉到工廠生產線"},{"start":10577.845,"end":10599.035,"text":"這問題永遠都沒有解決所以在這種狀況裡面而我們的康復 外籍康復早就是長照的主要的人手和人力這不是替代 這都補充台灣人都沒辦法做然後你弱勢的家庭也只請了起康復工沒有你去打那個"},{"start":10600.708,"end":10609.662,"text":"長照機構或者是請本國籍那全部都請不上去在這種狀況我們手段用清了嗎我現在要告訴你說"},{"start":10611.374,"end":10635.152,"text":"我告訴你一個狀況就是說照顧是不是一個專業照顧需不需要專業是那不同的失能的家庭的照顧有不同的需求失智者需要的可能是引導和耐心和陪伴中風患者需要的是物理復健和技巧末期的病患可能是需要臨終照顧所以這都是有專業的在這種狀況裡面我現在要講的就是說"},{"start":10639.215,"end":10662.168,"text":"我們國家還有沒有手段和方法寧的薪水比工廠更糟然後工時勞動條件更差但是仍然有誘因給外籍康復工讓他們覺得暫時寧更糟條件更差 忍耐一下未來會更好你覺得有沒有可能有這種誘因和手段"},{"start":10665.047,"end":10675.413,"text":"的確在一些國家它比方說在這過程裡面它會提供一些訓練或者是一些學習的機會讓這一些看護中訓練跟學習的機會換來的還是低報酬長工時"},{"start":10680.41,"end":10707.864,"text":"我現在不是要講這個我現在跟你講就是說以日本為例他們知道結構性的缺工如果已經是全面性的結構性的缺工他們去開發特定技能的簽證制度特定技能的簽證制度針對特定行業的對人力的補充和需求以餐飲業為例他們外食類的技能簽證分成兩種"},{"start":10709.105,"end":10733.425,"text":"一個是特定技能一號一個是特定技能二號一號跟二號的差別就是他可以吸菌可以讓你的配偶子女都跟著到日本來常住然後後來取得永久居留權你知道嗎特定技能一號就沒有"},{"start":10734.631,"end":10756.327,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面 引進特定的簽證制度不但提供他就業機會 也而且要當員工一樣對待這外籍移工 成為他們職業上的引導者透過政府各種支援的措施 包括文化適應形象管理 語言訓練 技能提升所以在這種狀況裡面 移工"},{"start":10758.669,"end":10783.331,"text":"特別是外籍看護移工如果在台灣的話他就不是短期的填充的補充缺口的人力而是我們要當他是可以培育可以發展的人才我們這裡提供的不只是就業機會未來有可能是全家攜家待眷永久居留"},{"start":10784.452,"end":10804.403,"text":"我們要把這種移工當成未來可能人才的這個概念帶到我們的長照體系裡面來把它訓練成為長照體系專業可用的可長可久的人力和人才那是不是一種誘因跟我們說我們非常願意"},{"start":10806.151,"end":10833.684,"text":"參考日本的經驗委員剛剛在講的事情就是日本的技術人力相關的制度所以他設計了讓這個技術能力包括有技能的學習 檢核包括語言的學習跟檢核但確實他這一套制度他也涉及到他是在海外的時候在母國的時候就進行這些工作所以我們其實部裡面是非常非常願意來往這個方向來做思考跟規劃的我現在要跟你講的意思是說這是結構性的因素因為大家來"},{"start":10835.202,"end":10858.61,"text":"家庭看護工的待遇 薪水 工時 勞動條件真的比廠工更壞壞都很壞這個結構因素注定了很多人來申請來當家庭看護工之後不久就要當跳板轉換到轉換到我們的工廠裡面而我們知道台灣現在是不允許自由轉換雇主"},{"start":10859.608,"end":10878.223,"text":"因為不允許自由轉換雇主所以仲介都嫁他 完結啊你跟你的老闆完結 腰疤炒 每天炒才把你雇主動不掉你早知道對雇主也沒有好處所以不如同意讓你轉換雇主所以現在現場的衝突就是這樣子這麼嚴重了"},{"start":10879.795,"end":10897.344,"text":"委員我剛才再讓我補充我們是非常非常願意跟衛福部一起來討論來思考比方說如果你是有照顧專長的技術人力就是說外籍的技術人力你有照顧專長的話是不是有機會可以進到我們的長照系統裡面擔任一些相對應的角色"},{"start":10897.964,"end":10925.56,"text":"那當然這裡面可能他會需要有語言的學習或者是一些技能的學習那在這中間我們怎麼透過公務部門的資源來去協助這些語言的學習或技術技能上面的學習讓這件事也就是說需要跟長照的體系來結合可是呢在家庭我們現在的長照制度外籍移工的看護就是到個別家庭裡面沒有什麼主管啦我講的不是主管"},{"start":10926.499,"end":10944.245,"text":"我講的不是主管我講的是技術人力因為你現在留的時間比較久的話其實你有機會可以轉成技術人力照顧一個適能的人平均要7年到10年我講的是如果他可以成為有技能的有照顧專業的技術人力的時候我們怎麼跟衛福部接下來討論在兩個機制之間有一些結合的點讓這個"},{"start":10948.767,"end":10965.177,"text":"長照的人這樣這個照顧專長的人力在長照的體系裡面也有角色有位置我們很願意來嘗試這個方向對啊所以次長你來想想看你的想法和做法你覺得可行性是怎麼樣包委員正如剛剛黃部長剛剛說我們現在會來兩部那個全力推動啦我問一下委員報告其實我們現在已經有兩個機制一個我們在去年"},{"start":10971.101,"end":10978.043,"text":"我們在福音科技大學我們現在就有一班就是從外南那邊接過來在這裡我們受兩年的訓練之後他可以在台灣待兩個三年他如果過他們都沒問題這樣我們勞動部就給他一個中階勞動力中階勞動力他如果通過之後他最主要在我們機構因為我們機構講的是我們溫柔你現在在講家庭看護工的困境你不要講到機構去沒關係"},{"start":10997.289,"end":11003.452,"text":"機構就適用勞基法啦對啦 我如果委員報告我們現在也在考慮啊我們現在在那個那裡規範家庭看護對不對我們也可以訓練訓練後伴他就可以來進入我們這裡也是中階勞動力你還會進入哪裡 進入哪裡啦進入機構啊"},{"start":11013.633,"end":11019.936,"text":"我們現在講的是說 每一個家庭康復工他如果持續成為家庭康復工 要7年到10年譬如說這7年到10年 我跟你講喔 黑股不會淋在手啦他整天都要照啦 因為沒前途沒未來信念成中階勞動力 他的薪資變成3萬喔2萬倍啦 那個是要轉換料啦"},{"start":11045.117,"end":11069.329,"text":"你們現在要求薪水多少2萬啦不是啦 我在講家庭看護工家庭看護工最低是2萬2萬 可是事實上務實面 實務面2萬有人嗎什麼2萬2現在都2、3萬啦 2、3萬可以跟廠工的薪水待遇比嗎"},{"start":11072.59,"end":11091.555,"text":"沒有啦 委員當然是這樣 根據勞動經濟學這跟你單位生產力也有關係啊結構上的問題為什麼逃跑 為什麼待不住因為在家庭看護工一天24小時 一年365天你還可以加班費給他不休息 不讓他休息"},{"start":11092.555,"end":11121.898,"text":"然後勞動條件這麼差 薪水不要說2萬 僱主給你3萬人家看他同鄉去工廠 還有加班的一個月納5萬 6萬這樣要完結嗎也就是因為剛剛你提到的這些現象所以現在的確我們是很願意再去思考一個重要的事情是這一個看起來他假設他現在是外籍的看護工他的薪資確實比較低如果他可以成為中階的技術工以後"},{"start":11122.498,"end":11146.018,"text":"那接下來在一個什麼樣子的條件下面有可能可以成為長照體系裡面的議員成為長照體系議員的時候他所可以擁有的國家的協助跟資源就會跟他現在單純你現在不要空中化大餅來我問你們啦為什麼講你空中化大餅你們國家的資源更多會進來那你短照經費今年就編不夠了啦"},{"start":11147.17,"end":11152.993,"text":"短照經費不是缺了嗎你們國家資源給外籍看護工兩種一個是勞動部的救安基金移撥出來的短照經費一個是衛福部納入的喘息計劃一年多少錢 有夠沒有未來增加80億以上免發數量表要增加多少人你經費有相對應的編列了嗎不要講新增加的"},{"start":11176.345,"end":11192.313,"text":"這在8月已經完成編列了你編列多少錢因為網路上有民眾在7月底的時候反映被通知短照服務的經費不足而在113年執行率是173%在114年的今年到5月的時候執行率是101%"},{"start":11205.454,"end":11224.277,"text":"現在短照經費全部沒了然後長照只剩下長照一年84小時跟委員說明上禮拜已經召開就安定管理會那我們補上了這個因為原本的確我們有低估所以我們把差額包括明年的部分我們把追加補"},{"start":11224.497,"end":11252.733,"text":"我現在問你是說這麼結構性的問題你說引進國家資源叫這些家庭看護工把自己培養成專業的然後技能上納入我們國家的中級技術專業人力的那麼他可以用國家更多資源國家是有多少資源啊國家資源不過就長照那84小時多少錢 長照多少錢我們現在目前"},{"start":11253.894,"end":11258.959,"text":"我們這個部分其實跟勞動部我們密切配合總共加起來是6億8600兩邊加起來6億我們本部我們一邊3.4勞動部也幫我們3.4這樣總共6億就夠了"},{"start":11272.633,"end":11283.221,"text":"6億和20幾萬的家庭康復移工用不不不 不是這樣喔我們這是擴大喘息服務喔我們這是擴大喔喘息就是給長照體系 阿我們講的是移工納入長照適用喘息所以移工用就會更早囉"},{"start":11293.189,"end":11308.138,"text":"現在移工的部分就是勞動部的短照服務啊短照服務的過去變兩頁但是我有一件報告我們那是鼓勵大家先來用我們的擴大喘息啦這個我必須要說你加起來六七頁也是很少的啦擴大喘息是六頁喔但是勞動部救援年金金現在又變五頁嘛"},{"start":11318.755,"end":11340.04,"text":"到八億喔 加起來是14億喔你的六億是普通人也在用的 不是外籍移工專用的嘛外籍移工是用多少啦沒有啦 那個擴大喘息服務就是我們家庭照顧者嘛 還有外刊啊短照服務是外刊專用的嘛"},{"start":11340.62,"end":11366.968,"text":"短照是外籍看護院當時是因為期休一希望能夠讓這個外籍看護可以有收休所以我們規劃了短照以前是一年預算才兩三億嘛三億嘛今年我剛剛講的113年執行率是173%今年到5月101了所以你才發現不足嘛所以你才追加到五六億嘛本來是三億現在是六億可能五六億嘛可是這夠嗎"},{"start":11368.248,"end":11387.534,"text":"你剛剛講說我一直跟你講結構上這個問題會造成聘僱外籍移工的家庭跟這個僱主跟移工之間很多的摩擦那個摩擦的目的是為了自由不能自由轉換僱主而去製造衝突讓他可以轉換出去"},{"start":11388.394,"end":11404.165,"text":"而這一種結構來自於薪資結構的不平等來自於勞動條件上的這個特別惡劣而你沒有辦法解決薪資結構也沒有辦法解決勞動條件的惡劣的狀況下你有沒有透過你的"},{"start":11405.186,"end":11419.322,"text":"其他的制度比如說像日本的這一種制度設計了可能就未來允許西眷來台灣永久居留類似這種狀況留住這一種看護的人力"},{"start":11420.305,"end":11437.137,"text":"然後拘留下來讓他可以忍受一時的難處然後看到未來他可以永久拘留而有一個誘因因為這個誘因只存在外籍康護工而廠工可能是門檻更高的"},{"start":11438.447,"end":11455.535,"text":"類似這樣的機制我們來設計否則你要打高空叫國家扛起長照責任失能照顧責任國家不願意一直退位然後仰賴仲介仲介控制著市場和政策"},{"start":11457.073,"end":11477.702,"text":"跟委員說明第一個我們其實現在也正在檢討我們技術人力的制度而技術人力制度的檢討其實也是正在參考日本的做法所以我們近期包括法案署裡面其實也不斷的在跟日本這邊來做交流其實就是希望能夠參考日本相關的做法因為日本的做法其實某些部分真的是值得我們參考的這是第一個"},{"start":11478.462,"end":11504.21,"text":"第二個的確因為在制度上面如果你可以成為中階的技術人力之後比方說他回去的那個年限就可以打就可以拿掉所以技術人力是可以長期的留下來的是技術人是可以想說為什麼才剛才跟委員在講到說我們很希望怎麼樣來協助我們的移工蘭嶺的移工他可以更順暢的轉成技術人力然後在在這個部分他可能會有相對應的這些權力的保障甚至資源配套更多是"},{"start":11505.15,"end":11531.747,"text":"你刚刚讲的资源就只有你们的短照还有这个传息服务这是不够的跟文说我的意思不是只有短照我刚才讲到如果今天一个照顾的技术人力的话他就可以进到国家的社福的体系里面国家的社福体系里面的资源会比他一定只能从雇主尤其是这些一般的雇主来出会来得更加的丰富国家的体系里面能够提供的就业的机会是多少啦"},{"start":11533.858,"end":11550.922,"text":"整個長照失能體系國家都退位照服務員的待遇看穩定嗎現在已經到將近上千億了我們當然知道"},{"start":11561.661,"end":11584.815,"text":"現在是造福源 你去問每個失能的家庭配到的食素是多少 遠遠少於需求啦這個就是 我們知道蔡英文總統任內把她上升到800多億賴總統任內上升到900多億這看到國家 可是你知道整個失能照顧的體系不是上千億就足夠的"},{"start":11586.096,"end":11608.899,"text":"你剛剛講到的那個結構的困境我們都是同意的所以要解這個結構的困境勢必是需要國家的資源進去導入才能夠緩解這個你剛才講包括弱弱相殘的狀況所以包括制度上面跟我說資源包括制度上面因為今天在移工的聘僱的這個體系裡面移工聘僱體系坦白說它的確是一個相對市場機制"},{"start":11610.02,"end":11622.614,"text":"可是今天在長照的資源沒有 不是市場機制你忘了家庭看護工是我們用政策硬生生的把它從勞基法適用裡面排除掉的這個不是市場機制"},{"start":11625.117,"end":11648.16,"text":"那但是需要一些國家的資源才能夠去緩解剛剛在講的那個結構的困境這個是為什麼我們在跟衛福部一直在在跟包括跟呂次長一直在談我們希望在這裡面能夠未來能夠有所突破那透過的就是透過技術人力能不能成為技術人力或者是讓技術人力相關的配套能夠更健全這部分我們也在參考日本的制度要看得到吃得到要"},{"start":11649.421,"end":11659.551,"text":"實惠而不是口惠是這樣子 希望你們回去再想一想啦先這樣子所以我最後再講一句不是在這裡問說有10萬的人很加資格是不是馬上缺10萬不是討論這個東西"},{"start":11664.716,"end":11677.083,"text":"還有比媽媽最欠六十天更重要的是英文都在欠因為這個勞動上的不公平不平等的結構如果存在的話讓你再習慣來也是這個問題啦都是這個問題啦還有不要把它依供當成永遠不絕永遠有啦"},{"start":11684.968,"end":11706.887,"text":"所以我們真的是要好好思考我們的勞動力政策在未來少子化 超高齡化我們台灣的問題也是全世界的問題真的很嚴重來 接下來請王振興委員今天是王振興委員的聖誕千秋我們祝他生日快樂"},{"start":11712.511,"end":11713.412,"text":"那就麻煩次長來 有請次長"},{"start":11733.149,"end":11748.812,"text":"王委員生日快樂謝謝因為今天這個很重要的題目透過這個就業服務法46條的修正以後引發出剛剛像我們十分委員所提到的核心問題"},{"start":11750.133,"end":11778.042,"text":"這個是大家一直面對那也透過這次的問題的呈現大家如果有機會來把相關的問題處理到一個釐清以後怎麼來做因應所以我覺得很佩服大家各位委員還有在所有官員在應對這個問題的時候所做的努力那我們也期待能夠在大家用心的處理之下能夠有機會來慢慢的脫離這個困境"},{"start":11779.142,"end":11804.845,"text":"那這邊我還是有幾個需要跟次長還有跟部裡面一起來討論的地方就是中正家庭的衝擊跟配套措施因為畢竟來講中正家庭所受到衝擊還是影響是比較立即而且是明顯那我們當初在修法的時候也擔心80歲做一個切割是不是會跟目前大家討論的這些困境"},{"start":11805.525,"end":11828.178,"text":"會有直接的關聯那我相信這個是可以看到的一些狀況那貴部也提了6個配套措施那我們就逐一的來看一下其中的兩三個裡面目前在實際的狀況上是怎麼處理的包括針對於這個國內承接的順位的最優先這也是一個配套"},{"start":11828.738,"end":11849.633,"text":"那另外針對於協調移工來源國能夠確保那個量能跟品質這個是大家非常關心的部分還有如何補足第一線為了因應這個修法導致這個人力的需求那他們的工作量或者是面對這些問題的時候如何能夠讓他們有效的來"},{"start":11850.874,"end":11876.767,"text":"面對這樣的困境 那最後是不是 除了剛剛所提到的擴編預算 支持看護家庭 包括從衛護部那邊也提供轉息服務這次也看到編類的11.8億針對這部分來做加強 這個今天就利用這個機會來跟部裡面就交 跟次長來就交一下第一個部分就是重症家庭國內承接順位的最優先"},{"start":11877.367,"end":11901.83,"text":"那我們可以從這個畫面上看到當一個重症案有這個需求的時候他有兩個可能性來取得招募的許可國外引進的部分我們等一下再談我們先看國內的承接那目前在處理上就是會把它變成一個最優先的承接順序而且是在14天裡面如果已經有"},{"start":11902.651,"end":11918.663,"text":"目前在台灣的這些移工他被釋放出來的話他可以在14天裡面就來承接當然這個14天很有可能他在媒合的時候發現這個對象不是他願意的所以他也可以有選擇權假設說他在這個7天的選擇權裡面後來沒有媒合成功"},{"start":11924.747,"end":11951.375,"text":"這個14天要怎麼算這個未來在執行上可能不同的縣市或者是中央這邊有沒有一個一定的處理模式避免到時候每個縣市覺得說我這個14天就是從一開始就是14天另外有縣市說我因為每隔7天不成功我用從第7天開始算14天這個未來避免執行上的困難或者是執行上的差異性這部分可能要等一下請次長說明一下"},{"start":11951.935,"end":11975.323,"text":"還有這個媒合率要怎麼確保因為輕症只有時間多這個是人性如果是我們的話我們也會做這些選擇那我們怎麼能夠從這個國內承接的媒合率裡面去掌握到未來如果是真的媒合率很低的話那很顯然這個部分需要再做政策上的檢討或者是一些執行上的參考"},{"start":11975.863,"end":11996.73,"text":"那另外就是說如果我們要開放中心家庭跨業比的這個承接的話那如何能夠完成這個補充訓練那當然這個過程裡面其實職聘中心的量能就非常非常的重要目前我們的職聘的中心量能有辦法來應付或者是面對這個國內承接這樣的困境或者是問題嗎次長請"},{"start":11999.051,"end":12021.345,"text":"首先跟委員報告非常謝謝委員的關心有關於重症家庭國內承接優先這個部分那一般的國內承接大概都沒有原來都是按誰按來辦理但是我們這一次特別針對重症家庭預定了一個優先所以他會依照輕重分流的角度來理解"},{"start":12022.305,"end":12045.954,"text":"一旦有國內承接的狀況有移工要在國內承接我們優先來處理重症家庭的一個媒合那這媒合大概我們就會在14天裡面來相應的做處理那剛才委員所提到技術面的問題我們會來注意那第二個部分當然就是國內媒合部分還是必須要僱主跟移工雙方面都能夠互相同意和理解才會有媒合成功"},{"start":12046.454,"end":12073.493,"text":"那這部分我們會盡力的來做相應的媒合所以媒合的頻率和次數我們會來加強然後第二個部分就有關於職聘中心也好相關的救福站的媒合的部分也好我們會來提升相關的人力來多做一些事情所以包括我們後面所講的相關的人力的部分包括衛福部那邊的照管中心包括勞動部這邊相應的人力以至於"},{"start":12074.093,"end":12091.304,"text":"到未來在外管的部分的那個簽證的部分還有未來引進之後我們地方的勞動的相應的人員有去看探視或看訪的相應的部分相關的人力我們通通在後面會去估"},{"start":12091.824,"end":12115.007,"text":"估算出來也做了一些相應的編配大概188人左右所以委員的建議我們有充分的注意到當然最終還是會取決於牢固雙方面的一個合議那在這部分裡面我們會盡量來協助大家去做完整的相應的界階盡量讓重症家庭在這一波的狀況裡面衝擊降到最低"},{"start":12115.714,"end":12144.77,"text":"好那針對14天的起算跟時效的這個過程的計算可能部裡面還是要先確認好謝謝那再過來就是有關於如果是重症案進入到招募許可的過程裡面是國外引進這個移工來協助幫忙做照顧的話那因為我們知道一個移工要進到台灣他需要有三個單位的審查包括在簽證的部分是外交部"},{"start":12145.45,"end":12170.999,"text":"那第二部分就是聘僱許可是勞動部就是貴部那拘留證是移民署所以這個是一個當然剛剛會提到為什麼我們需要仲介來協助有他一定的這個道理跟他的這個冗長的過程所以這部分想要確認就是在外館優先處理的部分有沒有跟外交部有過相關的協商或者是請他們來幫忙"},{"start":12172.319,"end":12189.311,"text":"那另外我們也知道這個工作資格其實很多種那我們目前討論的這個照顧的部分是其中的一種所以這個會不會有其他的行政措施導致變成這個簽證競合的現象所以這部分可能也要麻煩持續跟外交部這邊來做處理"},{"start":12190.649,"end":12214.489,"text":"那另外就是如果如果說依照我們現在從國外引進這個框框裡面的第三項要修正仲介評鑑的要點來引導仲介機構優先處理仲正這是一個很好的方向至少我們讓仲正的這個機構知道他們必須要針對仲正當作一個優先處理的一個對象那請問"},{"start":12215.611,"end":12223.344,"text":"要怎麼修正所謂的修正是往哪個方向修正還有目前修正的時程完備了嗎"},{"start":12224.779,"end":12245.334,"text":"跟委員報告就有關於從國外引進端第一個部分是我們跟四個來源國在相關的會議或者是溝通上都有促請他們在這一方面多於配合他們也都有答應那當然這個具體的人數會涉及到當地進來之前包括語文包括"},{"start":12245.794,"end":12272.823,"text":"相關照護技術的一個培訓的量能所以還在處理當中但是來源國大概都有表達願意配合的部分那第二部分是有關於簽證的部分我們在外館那一邊也預見可能會有一些數量的增加那這些數量的增加會增加外館同仁的負荷所以我們也提供了相應的人力的補助給外交部在外館的部分可以去做相應的處理"},{"start":12273.223,"end":12296.745,"text":"那在處理面向當然就盡量讓重症家庭能夠不會比現在的引進的時程拖延至少要維持住目前的狀況能夠提早是更好那第三個部分是在國內的部分國內的部分我們其實在家庭看護工我們是有一站式的服務在這一邊移民署的居留簽證會在那個時候就已經相應的做處理"},{"start":12297.445,"end":12313.947,"text":"所以這部分大概請委員放心至於大家也提到說仲介的部仲介是不是會有期仲折清或者是其他相應的事情所以我們在仲介這部分我們會透過仲介的評鑑來做相應的要求案處理"},{"start":12314.668,"end":12335.636,"text":"我們的仲介業的制度當然分成不同的等級那不同的等級有些一定年限是要退場的那有些他是可以有一些獎勵或者是後續免聘的機制我們在這裡面會去要求仲介業者在這中間服務重症家庭的狀況要達到一定的要求那相應的細節我們現在在規劃當中我們會盡快來處理"},{"start":12338.497,"end":12358.392,"text":"是所以如果這方面的評鑑要點有修正到一個程度可不可以提供給委員會或是我們的辦公室來做參考好謝謝那再過來就是有關於補足第一線人力這個也是一個重要的配套那我們剛剛也聽次長知道說有關於這個駐外這個使館的簽證的僱員會增加10名"},{"start":12360.733,"end":12379.405,"text":"包括印尼有6名 越南3名 菲律賓1名當然可能還需要的話事實再來做調整其他的包括各縣市的長照管理中心還有事務中心分別增加一共原有的是188名另外我們也注意到為了要提升地方的審查"},{"start":12380.846,"end":12409.851,"text":"的這個諮詢他設立了一個叫做查查諮詢督導員這個督導員目前是有為了這個法新增了補助地方政府90名這樣的人力那我們也知道這樣的人力其實是很辛苦因為他要到現場去確認去了解我們進來這個勞工他在工作性質有沒有偏離他當初要看護的這個需求那如果有違規的話當然就需要做後續的處理"},{"start":12410.271,"end":12433.527,"text":"那我們擔心的就是如果真的擴增到這麼多的申請案的話那我們這樣的人力到時候假設因應不足的話還有沒有其他的配套措施這一部分跟委員報告相應的部分因為剛才其實也很多委員關切這10萬或者是多少人那我們目前觀察的趨勢是這個案子基本上第一週跟第二週大概"},{"start":12434.487,"end":12458.553,"text":"第二週會比第一週成長了兩倍那未來整個的趨勢大概一定會跟目前的中正家庭會受到一些影響那未來這有關於相關的配套措施我們都在隨時觀察相應的數據在滾動檢討當中人不夠我們就會盡量去提供更衝突的人力錢不夠我們就會盡量在預算方面再去做相應的處理這邊請委員放心"},{"start":12459.393,"end":12486.684,"text":"是的我相信如果是有這個預算需求的話應該所有委員都會努力的來促成那再過來就是有兩個建議事項也請部理次長這邊參考一下因為我們剛剛也聽到蘇文委員非常擔心我們從這個報表裡面可以看得出來在114年的6月2號重現的就是身心障礙者如果依照他的這個整體的身心障礙者來看有123萬"},{"start":12488.385,"end":12513.285,"text":"那如果把這個急重度跟重度加進來也有34萬左右這個未來其實都是很潛在需要接受照顧的這一群那我們現在初估是10萬嘛那當然跟衛護部這邊也有很密切的合作如何能夠讓這個身心障礙者能夠得到大家共同的支持之下讓他們的這個生活家庭的這些負擔可以有效的減輕"},{"start":12514.386,"end":12536.513,"text":"所以根據未來這樣的需求也希望兩個部會能夠持續的密切合作針對於不管是長照3.0以後帶來這些影響幫忙還有針對這個就業扶法修正以後帶來的衝擊影響都能夠持續的來做相關的這些討論還有互相的合作"},{"start":12537.173,"end":12556.3,"text":"那另外就是有關於其實大家很擔心這些重症的家庭他們為了要讓這些服務人力可以到位那他需要包括相關的這個移工的這個就業安定費的這個部分"},{"start":12556.92,"end":12575.928,"text":"那有沒有機會請部長再跟請部長再跟大家討論看看能不能停徵就重症家庭申請移工的就業安定會這方面的這些帶來的衝擊這種費用我想如果能夠針對重症家庭提供相關這樣的這個服務內容的話對這些家庭來講應該是有"},{"start":12582.07,"end":12600.436,"text":"很感心因為他要照顧這個重症的家人已經非常非常的辛苦如果能夠有這樣的這個處置的話相信對他們是有很大的一個安心感最後就是希望能夠老公部所提出的這些跨部會協商方案都能夠要落實那也希望"},{"start":12601.056,"end":12617.392,"text":"我們知道今天在討論重症那其他都是剛剛部長也提到就是用一般的處理方式所以未來針對這個這麼越來越多元的需求量能越來越大的需求之下怎麼來一併的評估因應的這些需要性"},{"start":12618.032,"end":12646.659,"text":"那最後也真的是希望能夠投入資源給重症家庭有十足的幫助那這部分再麻煩市長報告第一個部分就是有關於國內的生醫障礙者超過100萬那我們其實在高齡化的社會已經來臨所以我們對很多失能的長者或生醫障礙的朋友其實是需要做更多的照顧其實國內整體的政策會從長照2.0走到長照3.0這部分是我們國內整體照顧的主力"},{"start":12647.219,"end":12665.136,"text":"那有一部分會是在進入到家庭裡面是由外刊的部分來做相應的處理那這邊有剛才包括王委員林委員很多委員有指教結構性的問題我們會跟衛福部再來做仔細的盤點參考日本的經驗來做對接這第一個部分要跟委員報告"},{"start":12665.837,"end":12686.028,"text":"然後第二部分是有關於就業安定費的部分就業安定費當時的理解是為了讓使用者付費然後能夠避免影響到國內的勞動條件所以就業安定費收來的就業安定基金才會用在促進國民就業提升勞工福祉還有跨國勞動力事務管理這幾個主要的面向"},{"start":12686.848,"end":12713.813,"text":"以低收或中低收這些經濟弱勢的家庭目前都是免收就業安定費的大概我們估計相關統計大概有1.2萬至於說未來因應這樣一個修法的趨勢還有未來就業安定費整體的檢討我們會跟整體的制度面再來一起做一些細部的討論那這邊委員的意見我們會把它納入討論的內容和參考謝謝委員"},{"start":12715.993,"end":12724.418,"text":"好非常感謝次長的這個部分給我們的回應那也謝謝主席讓我能夠充分的發言感謝謝謝"},{"start":12728.936,"end":12752.783,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 謝謝次長 再次祝王委員生日快樂欣賞吃成 身體健康 烏如東來 瘦比南山把你的喜宴 把你的生日用分享給大家 給大家都快樂接下來請曾振琴委員 曾振琴委員不在楊瓊瑜委員 楊瓊瑜委員 不在蔡議員 蔡議員 不在"},{"start":12754.844,"end":12762.854,"text":"麻煩劉建國召委發言好 謝謝主席有請次長有請次長"},{"start":12772.133,"end":12795.487,"text":"我來順延次長最後剛剛回答我來順延剛剛這個崔巡次長最後的一段話你最後那段話如果記得清楚應該叫做台灣有將近100多萬個身心障礙者的家庭這個家庭裡面小英的2.0一直到賴總統即將要進度到3.0那也包含"},{"start":12796.167,"end":12812.784,"text":"也包含外籍看護工在做整體的台灣的整個這個長期照顧的體系的一環就包容在這一塊跟這一塊嘛我應該可能文字上有些落差啦那基本上意思應該是這個樣子嘛對不對所以應該講說開宗明義就是說台灣的長期照顧"},{"start":12818.209,"end":12846.438,"text":"被照顧的對象長期被照顧的對象那基本上基本上外籍看護工也就是在這一個範疇裡面非常需要的一個長期照顧的人力嘛沒有錯嘛對不對好那我剛剛在私底下部長沒有離開之前可能部長在因為一件事情啦但我有跟次長也有跟照護士的司長來做一個討論看護這兩個字的定義是什麼"},{"start":12847.935,"end":12872.447,"text":"就以勞動部看待看護 解釋看護用最簡單的方式去定義看護的工作內容是什麼就協助失能者相關的日常照顧協助失能者相關的日常照顧嘛 對不對所以有失能者三個字嘛 對那如果看護工"},{"start":12873.629,"end":12893.353,"text":"沒有針對失燈者去照顧正常的對象 有沒有違法理論上是不行的所以我們以前最早的時候看護工去幫忙其他的家人洗衣服煮飯都是我們認為是愉悅的工作的方法幫他洗衣煮飯 他的對象"},{"start":12898.354,"end":12914.686,"text":"他的對象應該限於失能者限於失能者這樣解釋又怪怪的也就是說看護工照理講不管他照顧對象與否他都不應該去做洗衣煮飯的事情嘛應該是這麼解釋才對嘛還是可以"},{"start":12915.458,"end":12930.085,"text":"因為他講日常生活照護因為我們的失能者有些可能是獨居的有些可能是 所以這個部分就會去看原則上我們是希望以失能者的需求滿足為主那不急於其他的家人"},{"start":12931.381,"end":12958.153,"text":"所以話又講回來就是說對私人者的照顧可能我們的這個日常照顧的範圍我們可以擴大一些去做一些處理對不對在認定上勞動部是覺得這是延伸也沒有多大問題但是我們有分得很細節你自己講的第一個外國人受聘僱於從事本法第46條第9款規定之工作其工作內容如下"},{"start":12959.232,"end":12974.009,"text":"第一個家庭幫庸工作在家庭從事房舍清理食物烹調家庭成員起居照料或其他與家事服務有相關嘛這個是家庭幫庸工作的範圍定酬嘛對不對好那第二個"},{"start":12974.83,"end":13003.982,"text":"就看護囉 那看護又分做機構看護跟家庭看護喔對 他的前提照顧對象就正如市長所講的都是失能者嘛 對不對好 那問題來了啊46條46條修正之後我們的外籍看護工照顧對象就沒有所謂失能者就沒有全部focus在一個失能者的在那個前提了嘛 對不對那這樣顯然只有修那一條 這條要不要修"},{"start":13005.555,"end":13016.815,"text":"那一條修了 現在要執行的這一條當然要不修那人民要如何去看待你的法律的明確性然後要如何去遵守你的就業法所有的條文"},{"start":13018.777,"end":13039.065,"text":"怎麼去看待46條我們的理解因為46條增加不叫做你們理解你可能要很正確的說明他還是對照顧的對象寫到被看護者四個字所以基本上面只是被看護者的資格條件做一些相應的處理所以我們基本上面還是不會認為這個會外溢到非被看護者的範圍"},{"start":13044.938,"end":13068.278,"text":"市長你應該了解我講的意思但是你打呼我這樣是不對的喔今天是一個不是私人者對象他提出這個外籍勧奴的申請外籍移工的申請嘛對不對那我的前提就不是私人者我已經提出申請了那我只是超過80歲那你必須依照46條修正完之後你必須要接受我的申請嘛"},{"start":13069.807,"end":13077.13,"text":"那跟你在第四條針對看護的定義實際工作內容就已經衝突跟違背了啊"},{"start":13078.293,"end":13103.712,"text":"因為46條那邊大院的修法是把它寫成80歲以上或者是70歲癌症二期以上都把它等同於被看護者所以我們從被看護者的角度上來看依照大院的法律我們就是只能做這樣一個相應這個法律是立法院通過沒有錯啦但是立法院通過大院通過的80歲以上它只是寫80歲以上對不對因為它寫80歲以上被看護者"},{"start":13105.011,"end":13128.589,"text":"他有寫80歲以上被看護者他只是說免評84量表怎麼認定他是80歲以上的看護者那個條文讀起來會這樣所以有一些NGO團體或專家學者也在指教說這樣子是不是彼此之間會有一些衝突因為80歲以上其實事實上就是衝突啊事實上就是衝突啊"},{"start":13129.58,"end":13153.462,"text":"但是對我們行政機關依法行政的角度上來看我們還是會盡量在法律許可的範圍裡面把它做一個相應的降低它的衝擊和安排市長你先等一下我請市長 長照市的市長你現在在詳讀是不是還是在看手機在研究法規是針對我們剛剛討論這事情的法規嗎"},{"start":13157.043,"end":13160.61,"text":"是喔 次長你作證喔等一下手機打開不是你就"},{"start":13164.165,"end":13192.244,"text":"長期照顧長期照顧的對象可不可以簡單說明一下在你小管的長期照顧服務法的定義我們的長服務法裡面規範的就是預期他未來或者是現在就是整個達到半年六個月以上的一個需要協助他生活無法自理的失能的一個狀態身體心理就是半個月六個月以上自己沒有辦法自理嘛需要他能來協助照顧嘛對不對"},{"start":13194.266,"end":13201.903,"text":"這是很清楚嘛你們對康祿的定義在你們的長照體系他的工作內容照顧的對象"},{"start":13203.597,"end":13231.443,"text":"應該是這麼說這個看護的字整個源起是從就業服務法這邊來的那所以在常服法裡面對於有一條的名詞定義裡面就是有把這個所謂的這個看護也引進進來所以你們這邊有一個叫做第三條的第八項個人看護者只以個人身份受雇"},{"start":13233.079,"end":13260.53,"text":"與失能者家庭從事看護工作嘛 對不對所以就很清楚了嘛這個是從引舊輔法的一些文字過來的所以我要表達就是說不管你在長照輔法的第三條不管你在這個就業輔法第四條到大院在修正後的第46條照例講都不應該違背你們定義的看護的工作看護的對象啊"},{"start":13265.029,"end":13266.468,"text":"阿現在有沒有違背請答覆我"},{"start":13269.936,"end":13297.563,"text":"因為我們一直在擔心就是會排擠到真正你必須要照顧到的重度的這些失能者 對不對就陳土次長所講的100多萬個這些身心障礙者的對象是我們擴大的長照體系包含外籍看護我們都納入在其中所以我們就是要針對身心障礙者除此之外還有6個月以上身心自己無法治理的對象"},{"start":13299.249,"end":13316.903,"text":"都很清楚嘛我相信兩個法律基本上都在談論這個事情嘛開宗民義內容實際執行都是這個樣子嘛但一個就有法4、6條去修那段話之後全部通通辯解了啊全部通通衝突了啊"},{"start":13317.751,"end":13343.408,"text":"所以勞動部當時在46條修法的時候其實我們是希望再更多的討論那是不是有一些其他相對的可以更緩和然後能夠兼顧各方的意見的版本但是遺憾的到最後通過的版本還是目前的狀況我現在只是要提醒你喔我是要提醒你我沒有要求你去釋憲啦照理講你是應該勞動部要發動去釋憲你不去釋憲你會出什麼問題連衛護部你都會遭遇到問題"},{"start":13347.83,"end":13375.431,"text":"如果80歲以上 免80量表然後是一個身心都非常健康的長輩他都可以來申請外籍看護工那我是80歲以上的一個長輩我身心健康 我能不能申請長照2.0你要不要跟我平 你為什麼可以跟我平"},{"start":13378.615,"end":13393.548,"text":"我申請外國對象免評我臺灣 我自己申請臺灣的造福源你要給我評什麼啊你給我評不會過啊 對不對啊你這位夫妻 請外籍公公你不要給我評 會過啊"},{"start":13397.728,"end":13405.19,"text":"我告訴大家有意思嗎 一個政府一個體制的一個勞動部你針對外籍的香港人 也是你照顧台灣的經濟照顧的對象一個有效部 照護師專門主觀長照2.0 也是要照顧身體心理超過6個月以上無法治理的這些對象嘛 對不對 我們都很清楚"},{"start":13418.806,"end":13444.863,"text":"就是陳儒次長 我是FOX次長回答王委員最後那段話這麼廣大 龐大的一個照護體系當然就是包含本級的照護員包含外級看護工嘛但是為什麼這兩個照顧對象認定審查需求不盡相同這個不叫分流這叫亂流"},{"start":13449.767,"end":13475.107,"text":"對不對 為什麼就你逼我 我今天是一個健康的80歲以上長者我要來申請台灣的長照2.0 不行你不可以做對不對 但是我可以去申請外籍看護工這其實你再問一問我就不提去做了啦 但是我不知道"},{"start":13476.465,"end":13482.937,"text":"你如果沒辦法就這樣在執行上一定就會有很大的衝突 矛盾"},{"start":13484.669,"end":13506.163,"text":"怎麼政府會有這種兩條線的在處理我們真正的要照顧到了長照的需求者的對象那現在去擴大免評的他可能就是健康也要健康的這些對象除此之外這是另外一件事情嘛對不對但是我們真的很擔心我們真的很擔心真正需要被照顧的身體心理長期無法治理的對象"},{"start":13507.043,"end":13526.195,"text":"反而出了問題嘛然後也因為台灣是講人權的國家所以這個剛剛很多委員的比喻我就不再贅述了嘛這是另外一個政治問題喔但是我想以法律的明確性以法律的定義以看護的這個實際上的工作內容"},{"start":13528.144,"end":13538.292,"text":"你們兩部是不是要不要坐下來好好討論不能說大院通過的法律之前有大院通過的法律是自愛難行啊"},{"start":13539.5,"end":13564.793,"text":"沒有執行的啊謝謝委員的指教 委員的意見我們都非常的認同但是因為現階段而言所以我們才必須要花七個月的時間跟衛福部大家充分的在見面去做處理在有限的時間底下我們先盡量不要讓重症家庭的需求受到排擠那至於其他的部分我們跟衛福部這部分在未來長照3.0其實他們跟"},{"start":13565.433,"end":13586.181,"text":"我們在很多的界面上剛才呂次也有特別提到在很多界面上我們有過一些相應的處理包括這些中間家庭的空窗期長照的機制和資源也都可以進來我們會持續去做相應的處理至於剛才委員講的法律結構的問題容我們再來思考看未來該怎麼去做相應的處理"},{"start":13586.661,"end":13606.252,"text":"好了一個月可以吧一個月可以應該不用一個月了這個講就已經這麼清楚了一個禮拜內一個禮拜內你是不是針對我提出的問題你要看怎麼去做應應還有一些相關的一些調整還是該有一些必須要的作為"},{"start":13607.572,"end":13629.344,"text":"然後提供給委員會做參考啦好不好是 關委員是不是給我們一個月啦因為部長不在嘛我答應他一個禮拜我也不知我沒有辦法掌握部長這個禮拜完整的行程他就不在你就可以答應了他在就不用你答應啊你就很奇怪你講回答我之後會怪怪的我都一直順著你的講法一直講下來兩個星期啦兩個星期啦OK啦好 謝謝主席"},{"start":13636.079,"end":13652.015,"text":"好 謝謝劉靜雲委員的發言 謝謝次長的回應 下一位我們請陳穎委員發言稍微就這樣走了嗎"},{"start":13656.974,"end":13672.94,"text":"謝謝主席我先會議詢問一下您可以先請坐是這樣我們最近其實立法院加檢都有一些同仁做聽力測驗的時候其實耳朵聽力有些受損"},{"start":13673.9,"end":13700.559,"text":"那聽力受損呢其實並不是說對於這個聲音大小聲聽不見的不是這樣而是對於這種高頻或低頻好特定這些頻率的這個聲音會聽不清楚聽得到聲音但聽不清楚那當然這個長期有跟在處於這種噪音或者是那種就很大聲的這種環境是有關係的"},{"start":13702.119,"end":13731.432,"text":"那所以我要在這邊也替大家爭取一下我們這個健康的權益因為畢竟我們未還掌管這個監督勞動部衛福部跟環境部那重點是這個勞工申請職災如果真的說因為工作環境的關係聽力受損那鑑定之後我們還可以申請職災但是大部分現場是公務人員還有我們這種公職人員是沒有這種待遇的"},{"start":13732.532,"end":13759.542,"text":"那因為我們雖然立法院總務處幫我們設了那個分貝的那個測試的那個東西但是我覺得我也不是很確定說這個這個角度我們在執行是不是我們會看那邊還是看哪邊但是那個數字他就算超標了也不會逼也不會叫所以講話的人就不會有就不會控制那我要提的是"},{"start":13760.382,"end":13788.248,"text":"在人在70分貝就長期大概10分鐘連續處於這個70分貝以上的這個你會覺得心情很煩躁常常心情煩躁可能這個未來憂鬱症躁鬱症點點點可能都會跑出來再來還有些立委真的聲音很大常常超過80分貝那這個真的就是對聽力會直接造成損害所以這個部分"},{"start":13790.014,"end":13808.385,"text":"你們我不是開玩笑我真的建議大家年紀也有了做聽力測驗特別這個音頻高頻低頻到底聽不聽得到大家真的要去檢查一下那這個部分我想身為這個未還委員會的委員我們沒有辦法去要求就是說那個委員的音量"},{"start":13809.608,"end":13832.902,"text":"在每一次質詢都要控制在這個70分貝以下但是我們有因控啊因控在外面你坐在那邊你看得到那個分貝的數字嗎你如果看不到那我們可能也是要跟總務講一下看看要怎麼樣讓你隨時掌控這個數字因為你們坐在這邊是整天連續幾個小時耶我這樣講有沒有道理"},{"start":13834.628,"end":13863.688,"text":"對啊在座各位都是公務人員你們是不能申請這種職災的賠償我先把醜話講在前頭我剛查了一下法規那個意外死亡有所以這個部分我想起碼這是未還委員會我們應該要以身作則第一個這個側分貝的東西看這個位置是不是能夠讓大家很清楚特別是在講話的人"},{"start":13864.528,"end":13881.408,"text":"那最好超標的時候他會逼會叫提醒說一定要小聲一點因為除了很大聲以外講話時間也不會控制啊還要看心情你管了一下搞不好又吵起來會更大聲更久所以我想我真的"},{"start":13882.789,"end":13908.013,"text":"觀察很久也忍耐很久了我覺得為了大家聽力的健康請我們胃環委員會以身作則那當擔任主席擔任召委的人也可以對於這個我們質詢的環境這個噪音音量可以有所掌控我想做這樣沉痛的呼籲跟建議好謝謝主席你要回應一下嗎"},{"start":13912.058,"end":13925.776,"text":"謝謝陳燕委員剛剛的引重心長給大家的提示因為剛好我們召委不在我會把您的意見充分的反映給他做參考跟次長一樣主席可以做才事"},{"start":13926.457,"end":13953.695,"text":"是 對不過剛剛建議到說如果它的音量或者是CO2的濃度超過到一定的標準而且是損害到健康的話我們可以洽請秘書處可以反映說是不是有其他的機制可以讓現場的人知道我們所處的環境裡面應該要做哪一些我想主席跟我就在這裡具體建議了我們這個部分一定要來做改善跟控管"},{"start":13954.395,"end":13956.777,"text":"好那謝謝那主席我要麻煩請這個我們勞動部次長好請陳次長委員好"},{"start":13964.324,"end":13989.178,"text":"市長好 在這次丹納市颱風造成南部地區發生嚴重的災情很多的台南沿海地區的鄉親們屋頂都被吹走了其實看了也是讓人家覺得很揪心很同情我知道說你們勞動部也成立了四個災後防護服務站"},{"start":13990.066,"end":14014.508,"text":"以及這個宣導團那部長在7月26號的時候也有去現場去關心也制正了一些宣導品那本席也給予這個勞動部的同仁予以肯定但是呢在這個災後防護它不是兒戲我們要用很嚴肅的這個態度來面對它一言一行都會受到我們這個"},{"start":14016.409,"end":14034.685,"text":"全國同胞的嚴格檢定特別是災區的鄉親們我想要先請教一下次長這次的防護你們好像比較偏重在實棉粉塵的部分除了N95口罩以外你們還有提供什麼防護物資嗎"},{"start":14039.682,"end":14053.51,"text":"跟委員報告 除了那個N95口罩 我們還有護目鏡還有防護手套 還有防護衣你們還有一個太空包 我們是裝在防護包裡面"},{"start":14057.99,"end":14078.63,"text":"所以你不叫太空包那個叫防護包是嗎那個是裝實名的是太空袋我們俗稱稱為太空包太空袋那個是袋子所以我講太空袋太空包防護包你們都聽得懂都是一樣的東西不一樣防護包是給個人的好那就是那個叫什麼太空"},{"start":14082.705,"end":14100.021,"text":"你們去裝那些拆下來拆下來石棉瓦是放在太空包那沒有錯那我剛一開始就沒有講錯啊對啊那你幹嘛生出那麼多名詞來"},{"start":14102.028,"end":14114.938,"text":"好 那次長我們再看一下這個N95口罩其實要能夠就是密合才有這個防護的效果那你們去輔導同仁有教導民眾如何佩戴嗎"},{"start":14118.615,"end":14141.54,"text":"跟委員報告因為在我們的這個宣導品裡面是有那如果說影片的話我們在網路上指南索官網上也有這個配戴這個N95口罩的一個示範的影片因為我知道部長也有去示範那請問一下部長鬍子這麼濃密戴N95口罩是戴得老的嗎"},{"start":14147.792,"end":14170.477,"text":"基本上那個跟委員報告N95我們買的是那個3M的基本上這個佩戴的話它是符合一般人的一個臉型所以部長算一般人嗎我提這個我也是很認真的提出這樣的問題因為很多人他們會有"},{"start":14172.106,"end":14194.737,"text":"鬍子嗎 會留鬍子有的是上面八字鬍 有的是下面烙塞鬍烙塞鬍應該是面積更大吧那你們遇到這樣的狀況的時候在宣導上是不是也要做一些特別的處理因為我的疑問是這樣到底戴不戴得牢 如果沒有問題你就跟我說沒有問題就好了"},{"start":14196.621,"end":14212.848,"text":"是 它這個跟尾巴它是有一個後面有一個豎影帶基本上戴上去的話我們測試來講就是你在呼吸的時候不要吸到外面的空氣從旁邊進來基本上它就是有比較一般性的測試所以有鬍子是有幫助的"},{"start":14213.368,"end":14235.675,"text":"因為空間 空氣可能會比較多但是因為我們接下來我們現在在討論失眠啦所以我現在提出這個問題是很嚴肅的問題嘛那畢竟就是說就是說你看處理這個到要處理這個失眠的這些廢棄物我們都需要用到N95的口罩了啊所以戴的勞是很要戴勞是很重要的"},{"start":14236.195,"end":14261.149,"text":"那如果說真的有隔離到失眠失眠纖維它就會吸附在口罩的這個罩體上所以民眾取下來的時候會不會沾在手上然後再間接進入人體有沒有這樣的可能性跟委員報告失眠的危害主要是吸入所以這個口罩如果它當天使用完的話我們是建議要拋棄"},{"start":14264.983,"end":14293.724,"text":"如果手上有接觸到的話那現在的宣導的我們的衛教裡面也是希望要洗手把它洗乾淨因為我現在講的每個環節其實都有可能民眾都會吸入這些纖維所以我提到的我也希望你們能夠針對我的問題來做實質的回答你們應該有提供這個食物上有用的資訊例如說身體皮膚"},{"start":14295.065,"end":14317.71,"text":"衣服上也有可能都有食棉纖維當地又停水停電 洗澡是不方便的如何有效的解決這個食棉暴露的問題我們應該要更專業才是這邊我們來看一張這張圖在食棉放大之後 食棉瓦放大之後它就是無數根的這個鋼針"},{"start":14320.21,"end":14347.098,"text":"看起來很恐怖那這些失眠纖維被吸入我們這個人體之後呢這些鋼針呢就會刺入肺泡然後造成慢性發炎潛伏期大概15年到35年左右但通常等到確診的時候差不多都是晚期必死無疑了那你再看一下這張照片我們看一下這個勞動部的人全副武裝"},{"start":14348.24,"end":14375.568,"text":"但是呢 中間的民眾毫無防護那你們不是要去做宣導嗎那這種場景是很奇怪的啊好 到底說這樣子的這個輔導防護你們覺得有達到效果嗎你們就請給別人看 別人等到死這樣沒關係這個我們再來看接下來這張照片"},{"start":14377.225,"end":14401.725,"text":"石棉瓦 堆積的場地有人戴口罩 有人沒有戴底下還有一支大鐵錘表示呢 就是說這是破碎用的工具嘛那難道不是應該就是說要拉起這個封鎖線嘛要稍微隔離一下啊 也都沒有啊然後呢 我另外我再講一下剛剛講那個太空包"},{"start":14402.816,"end":14416.962,"text":"太空包我認為根本就不適合拿來裝這些石棉的廢棄物因為體積的關係你的太空包就這麼大而已然後你必須要先集穗"},{"start":14418.303,"end":14438.971,"text":"好 然後去毀損這些石棉瓦讓它變小一點之後然後再放進去嘛那這個積碎這個過程你就會造成這個石棉瓦纖維就會易散啊所以這個是你們要未來要去檢討思考的每個人都在那邊敲敲打打這個是 這反而是很不好的"},{"start":14441.371,"end":14462.397,"text":"我想這樣子的這個作業環境除了就是說勞工很危險之外附近的人也會遭受到暴露特別是我要講的是你們安研所的人都是專門在負責這些勞工安全衛生的研究跟宣導還有包括你們勞動部重建中心的這些同仁"},{"start":14463.337,"end":14485.075,"text":"難道這些都沒有具備這些常識嗎好 這些防護的這些常識應該都是他們要最清楚比其他人更清楚才是啊結果是做這樣的示範那我還想問一下就是說你們勞動部的安嚴所有沒有去做失眠濃度的檢測 有沒有"},{"start":14487.987,"end":14508.147,"text":"有做嗎目前是跟那個 我們內部已經跟研究所談好了就是外界在關心說這一次的一個在這個現場的一個暴露情形所以我們研究所已經準備開始要進行了所以現在才準備開始進行前面那個敲敲打打的去搜的那個都來不及了"},{"start":14512.333,"end":14533.203,"text":"8月6號 我們自己的勞檢機構也有派員到現場一起做採樣沒關係 反正你們已經啟動了不管來不來得及 總是比沒有好這一次的實棉暴露高風險的事件有專業SENS的單位 他們一定會去做研究把相關作業的勞工名單清澈 都建立起來"},{"start":14533.703,"end":14547.096,"text":"就是說萬一將來有人得到這個肩皮細胞癌的時候才可以得到應有的補償你才有的追蹤嘛所以我想要請教一下就是說我們剛剛看了幾張照片這些人有沒有造冊"},{"start":14550.842,"end":14575.24,"text":"各位報告我們現在跟那個微服部也討論過了如果是涉及到這個營造業者業者的話他名單未來我們會送給我們我們會到我們的勞保局那邊我講的不是這些營造業者是這些穿制服不是你們的人嗎看前面幾張照片這些穿那個背心的啊"},{"start":14576.963,"end":14583.649,"text":"那是我們的輔導員他們有沒有有 名車我們也有就要好好的追蹤"},{"start":14585.222,"end":14608.491,"text":"好那我們再看那個簡報6的部分這個右邊呢是環境部棚部長在風災後他們受損的這個石棉瓦的暫時放置那為了避免這個石棉瓦的纖維易散所以他們用帆布先整個蓋起來這個專業程度就立判高下啦"},{"start":14609.512,"end":14625.271,"text":"他們就沒有用那個太空包啦所以在這張照片比較起來這個環境部就是勝這看起來比較專業那我想這一次你們這一次就是說"},{"start":14626.252,"end":14650.135,"text":"我的形容叫做 我不認為這個叫做有以身作則反正你們這次去做輔導那除了好像比較偏重在這個失眠以外像其他的跌倒 踩踏 切割 穿刺 滑倒高架作業墜落都沒有看到這個災後防護我想請教一下次長你們有沒有統計這一次的這個服務及輔導的成效"},{"start":14652.065,"end":14676.844,"text":"報委員謝謝委員苦民所苦有關於實免法這部分環境部第一時間在台南跟嘉義都設置了堆置場但是相應的拆除的工作在一開始的現場因為有大概三萬棟左右的房屋屋頂先受損所以大家剛開始的時候是蓋房部然後下面的實免會有一些問題所以勞動部紅部長第一時間就要求"},{"start":14677.624,"end":14695.724,"text":"指安署的副署長下去前進指揮所然後設了四個服務站相關的輔導團先備制了一些物資讓大家緊急的用但是實際上真的實棉拆除是一個專業的工作那這部分未來應該目前我們跟環保署大家在處理當中應該有專業的"},{"start":14697.966,"end":14720.393,"text":"業者來做處理那相關的從業人員中間有接觸到這一些實名軌跡的我們都會把它造冊來追蹤相應的一些後續的注意那至於說其他的部分當然主要會是在剛開始的時候疫情期間是在最早的時候爬上爬下屋頂會不會有一些墜落的問題所以後來相關的屋頂的"},{"start":14722.714,"end":14744.335,"text":"相应的处理重建中心是请国内的相关的营造业者以一环积极的方式用公办的方式去做相应的协助那在相关的处理当做过程里面包括应价的搭设各方面都会都有跟相关的重建人员做一些说明和处理那至于刚才委员所讲的数据的部分我们会后再来做统整给委员"},{"start":14745.455,"end":14766.348,"text":"好那就是你們那個成果數據再麻煩給我們辦公室那另外就是說我快速來問一下我也我覺得蠻疑惑就是說那難道就是說只有這個台南有防護站然後雲林嘉義跟高雄他們都沒有是不是是沒有防護的必要"},{"start":14768.348,"end":14794.574,"text":"這邊因為實棉是早期的產品那洪部長在有指示研究所的唯平主要去做實棉濃度的處理這是第一件事那第二個部分就是說不好意思那個災後防護不會只有實棉我前面講實棉我後面已經開始講到那個啦跌倒踩踏點點點等等的那個很多很多"},{"start":14796.532,"end":14811.943,"text":"這種華島高架作業墜落的這種災後防護了這邊我們在相應的措施上會再來注意所以現在目前雲林嘉義高雄都沒有嗎都有我們都有我們有些是透過你們有去台東嗎台東啊台東有去嗎就沒有嗎"},{"start":14820.529,"end":14843.218,"text":"我才去一個像學校棒球場牛棚屋頂整個吹破那個到時候也是會有可能那種就是高架墜落這種作業的問題也是會有啊我是提醒你們稍微注意評估一下啦那這樣來說如果再有類似的風災勞動部會比照這一次就是說再去現場提供這個災後防護的輔導嗎未來都會吧"},{"start":14846.124,"end":14867.481,"text":"好 那那個就是說因為以前是沒有看過你們有這樣的服務雖然是說災後過了一段好一段時間才去但是就是說還是要給你們肯定啦但我希望這個未來期程可能要就是說要加速要加速那最後我再提醒勞動部就是說我們要去輔導民眾除了說專業要足夠"},{"start":14870.885,"end":14891.957,"text":"我覺得跟在地災民感同身受設身處地的去服務這個也是要很注意不是說我們穿著背心就代表專業要用心認真相信民眾就會有感提供服務的人員一定要有訓練同時還要有專業才可以提供更好的服務"},{"start":14892.717,"end":14917.684,"text":"不要說只是說只是去送東西然後沒有考慮說民眾會不會用到可以用多久我想這樣的服務很快就不會受到就會人家會起反感啦所以我想這個這些細節我在這邊提醒要請你們要重視好謝謝委員有關於相關的細節的部分我們會把它RAID得更清楚謝謝委員的指點我們將來在相關的部分再把它做得更完整好謝謝"},{"start":14924.693,"end":14935.68,"text":"好 謝謝 那本次會議詢討全部結束委員盧憲一 楊耀 陳冠廷 徐欣穎 何清淳所提書面質詢 帝都紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":14937.558,"end":14960.021,"text":"現在做一下決定 第一報告其詢問完畢 第二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求其限責 從其所定那上午議程到此結束 現在休息下午兩點在本會議室繼續審查病人自主權利法部門條文修正草案等五案好 現在休息"},{"start":14969.48,"end":14976.101,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":18733.364,"end":18733.713,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":20002.901,"end":20015.43,"text":"現在開會本日會議議程繼續審查委員分別凝聚病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案等我案現在介紹在場委員及列席官員我們第一位是陳昭之陳委員"},{"start":20018.137,"end":20036.759,"text":"第二位是王正旭王委員初喜官員是我們政務次長呂健德醫事司司長劉月平法規會參事陳信成心理健康師副司長鄭淑欣護理及健康照護師副司長陳清梅"},{"start":20038.668,"end":20063.008,"text":"長照師專門委員王玲玲還有中央健保署專門委員呂之華國健署檢任計政謝沛君還有法務部法治司調部辦事檢察官楊時瑜先做以下說明本委員會先前就以"},{"start":20064.284,"end":20087.11,"text":"已就遍典自主權利法部分條文修正草案等五案進行第一輪的主條審查那保留的條文包括第四條第六條第八條第九條第十條第十二條第十四條還有新增的第十六條之一第十七條那有關本次會議如有順便資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在進行"},{"start":20088.525,"end":20111.086,"text":"現在繼續進行病人自主權利法部門條文修正草原等五案第二輪的保留條文之審查那每條條文先請行政單位來做說明 接續我們就請委員來表示意見我們現在進行保留條文第四條的審查要不要請市長先做說明"},{"start":20111.752,"end":20140.578,"text":"好 謝謝委員第四條的那個不管是王玉敏委員或是劉建國委員這邊補充的第三項的部分因為其實現在的條文裡面關於相關的東西其實已經在執行中所以能夠建請委員們能夠支持維持原條文因為新增的文字其實在實務執行上面它並沒有增加額外的效力可能反而會增加臨床實務的誤解以上"},{"start":20144.81,"end":20150.074,"text":"好委員有沒有要表示意見第4條來請王委員"},{"start":20161.984,"end":20189.306,"text":"對 我想剛剛市長有說明如果用原條文的話好像在執行上也沒有什麼太大的問題不過我們原來是劉少偉這邊也有一個修正動議當初是希望說不要在處理上造成食物的一些重大影響包括說原來的修正條文是病人已經無法明示其意願且成為"},{"start":20192.188,"end":20209.677,"text":"預歷醫療決定者 關係人不得妨礙醫療機構或醫師醫病人預歷醫療決定之作為那這次在修正動醫的部分是希望能夠把相關的調整病人成為預歷醫療決定那在當下"},{"start":20215.18,"end":20226.095,"text":"如果已經失去了意識表示能力或者是意識昏迷或無法清楚表達意願者關係人不得妨礙醫療機構或醫師依據病人預例醫療決定所為之醫療行為"},{"start":20233.787,"end":20258.473,"text":"因為這個實務上有時候真的當一個病人面臨到已經失去意識無法表示能力的當下如果他的家人又基於無法在第一時間接受狀況那希望又改變當初所預定的這些內容的時候的確是真的是造成我們在執行上的"},{"start":20259.333,"end":20278.609,"text":"就是當場 當場的醫療同仁在執行上的一些困境所以才希望說能不能夠盡量的去讓原有的當他在決定AD的時候的精神能夠保留到最後 避免當然我們也了解有時候真的是"},{"start":20279.789,"end":20297.694,"text":"大家擔心的就是會告的人都是在後面他不會在當下對我們的這個現場醫療人員造成衝擊可是醫療人員擔心的是後面如果他因為他們想要改變又沒有接受他的改變的時候"},{"start":20298.294,"end":20321.634,"text":"那會來出現爭議的大部分都是後面的家屬所以才會希望保留原來的這個想法不過如果我們真的能夠要貫徹 貫徹這些當初預列ACP AD的這種精神之下我們也認同說經過修正動議的條文似乎比較能夠讓這樣的"},{"start":20323.636,"end":20338.653,"text":"一直貫徹到他跟預期所想要接受的醫療是一致的以上好 謝謝王委員還有其他委員要表示意見嗎我們這邊有再提一個修正動議不曉得市長有沒有看過"},{"start":20340.748,"end":20360,"text":"不是原的那個草案是我們有在提一個第四條修正動議我們在把這個病人無法民事的這期意願因為之前定義可能比較不清楚並不明確所以我們會擔心有實務上的這個困擾還有誤解所以才在提出這個修正動議"},{"start":20361.081,"end":20382.907,"text":"那文字在第三項差異就應該是這樣就是病人成為預醫療決定但現已失去意識表示能力那意識無分明或無法清楚表達意願者那這個我想很清楚嘛很清楚的在這個認定的患者裡面就成為剛剛王委員所講的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":20384.347,"end":20397.692,"text":"是不是可以認同這個修正案 可以啦 OK好 沒意見了 沒意見 好那第四條我們就照劉委員 王玉民委員 林月琴委員 王振興委員所提的修正動議通過繼續我們來處理第五條請衛務部先做說明"},{"start":20406.855,"end":20423.049,"text":"第五條 對不起 上次有修正通過了對 這一條先保留啦 好不好我們整個處理完之後再來看這一條要怎麼做處理或許 或許還是會有調 剛才陳榮有跟我講如果我們等一下審查的條件有保留的或許在"},{"start":20425.551,"end":20447.41,"text":"這個出委員會的時候協商的時候再提修正東西這也可以還是到最後的時候徵詢蘇昭也都到了這個醫界的非常棒的精英先進那如果覺得這個是可以等一下處理的那我們一輪轉完之後第二輪轉完之後走完之後我們就可以來做處理那請各位先過目第五條的修正其實只是增加那個"},{"start":20448.07,"end":20476.783,"text":"失智症的一個知情權而已啦這個是些許的這樣的一個修正好那我們繼續來處理這個保留條文第六條第六條的部分的話因為新增就是說不管是王育民委員或者是劉建國委員這邊提的版本其實是對於相關的包括了限制行為能力或者是無行為能力的這一段的一個算是"},{"start":20477.923,"end":20499.135,"text":"要做同意的這一段的一些描述我們覺得是說因為現行的新增的文字可能會造成臨床實務上面執行的困擾而且會增加道德風險是不是建請委員能夠就是說是不是能夠支持保留原條文以上好謝謝那請委員有沒有要表示其他意見"},{"start":20521.533,"end":20535.931,"text":"我可以問一下這個有一段是病人為民事反對有關係人行使同意權可以舉一下臨床的例子要怎麼去判斷他為民事反對"},{"start":20536.932,"end":20566.028,"text":"所以才會覺得是說這可能會造成臨床食物上面的困擾然後那臨床食物裡面的話其實有的時候家屬會主張譬如說就是說他可能在還沒生病之前跟我講過類似像這樣子的一個表達所以在舉證上面可能對第一線的臨床食物來說會是個困擾所以我們才會建議是說以第六條的條文是不是能夠維持原本的條文不做修正以下"},{"start":20570.131,"end":20590.805,"text":"好 請王正旭委員記得那個時候大家對於什麼叫民事什麼叫為民事都有一些討論所以我想主席劉兆偉會希望能夠修正把這個部分加進來的確事務上就像市長所擔心的"},{"start":20591.485,"end":20607.5,"text":"如果造成我們如何去定義這個民事為民事又造成徒生困擾所以我也當然尊重主席看可以有什麼其他的這個要再協助的部分不然的話我是蠻"},{"start":20608.861,"end":20632.901,"text":"能夠瞭解這個部裡面師裡面目前是覺得如果在衛民室這邊很難有一個明顯或是完整的說明的話用一個條文是一個適當的選擇以上來 請蘇召維我想這第六條就叫院辦就好了啦寫了一大堆這是在寫什麼"},{"start":20635.367,"end":20636.228,"text":"還有其他委員表示意見嗎"},{"start":20656.759,"end":20679.654,"text":"來 這個容我做一點點說明 好不好這應該沒差到一堆辣碗糕啦我不知道 我不知道是幾堆整個給小小伙伙覺得是一堆辣碗糕這件事應該是這樣啦 那座的保留也是從市長這麼講但市長可能忘記這件事情 也請市長還有法國會看一下你們自己訂的病人自主權利法施行細則第五條"},{"start":20681.209,"end":20709.324,"text":"第五條內容就是寫這樣適應細則第一項也就是本法第六條所定同意應以病人同意為優先病人為民事反對時得以關係人同意為之這個法條我只是把它提高到母法的位階適應細則也不是我們委員定的但你這個東西放在適應細則"},{"start":20711.589,"end":20735.235,"text":"這個法律的一個保留原則跟明確性足夠嗎所以我們才會把這一個怎麼講就是說剛剛幾位委員特別提到病人未明示款對食這個病人未明示款對食的用詞前置也不是這個我自己去擬出來的這是再強調一次這是病人自主權利法適應細則中的第五條"},{"start":20736.808,"end":20762.111,"text":"先把施行細則在這條文上放在這條條是這樣各位可以參考一下主管機關可以說明一下原本放在施行細則第五條你們是應用在臨床的什麼狀況可以舉例說明一下嗎就如同我剛剛舉例的就是說因為很多時候在病人自主權利法在"},{"start":20762.791,"end":20785.857,"text":"如果要執行AD的時候很可能他就沒有醫療委員代理人這些所以有關係的人就會說什麼時候這個家人講了什麼在這樣的情況下面的時候也謝謝委員這邊那個召委這邊的一個提醒其實在實行五年的時候我們七月跟八月都有陸陸續續針對病毒法這邊做了一個算是"},{"start":20788.398,"end":20805.078,"text":"協調會跟溝通說明會的時候在收音的過程當中也有很多的專家也指導我們要做連動的調整這樣可能在執行上面會比較容易也就是說其實透過委員的討論一個就是我們其實在"},{"start":20806.019,"end":20830.99,"text":"病人自主權益法的施行細則搞不好去修正施行細則因為這個討論當中也的確有相關的專家是說這個可能在執行上有問題然後如果誠如昭偉這邊講的是第六條這邊經過委員的討論覺得他的道德風險跟疑慮很重還是質疑度很高的時候其實我們就一併修正我們的施行細則以上"},{"start":20835.366,"end":20856.874,"text":"市長答覆我跟提這個條文的修正是衝突的我沒有針對你的私刑細則是有問題我反而是把你的私刑細則條文拉到法律的位階上來所以相對我是肯定你的私刑細則定這樣是OK只不過放在私刑細則的強度是不夠"},{"start":20859.963,"end":20882.743,"text":"這個很清楚關於為民事概念之定義這也是源自你們為狐狸部醫療機構施行手術及麻醉告知劑取得病人同意指導原則這個在醫療事務界已經行之有能的專業標準具有充分在操作可行性的一個法理基礎所以你們當時會定這個施行細則放在這第五條裡面應該也是這個根據"},{"start":20884.246,"end":20905.604,"text":"對不對 我只是把這個東西拿來放在母法裡面怎麼會讓你答覆我的最後一句話說你們在討論你們適應系的是不是有需要修改的部分這不對吧我沒有去挑戰你們適應系者好 尊重委員 那各位委員還沒有其他意見"},{"start":20908.019,"end":20912.345,"text":"各位能夠瞭解意思吧 信息者第6條 可能大家對照一下應該就知道這個情況 我在表達的這個情況"},{"start":20916.334,"end":20937.206,"text":"謝謝大家這樣的說明如果我們根據施行細則那也認同施行細則執行下來到目前為止並沒有諸外難省的部分的話就根據經驗法則來看的話把這個施行細則能夠更具體的明確化這個島也是一個修正的方向所以"},{"start":20937.946,"end":20959.737,"text":"基於這個原則之下我是會贊同就是劉昭偉他希望能夠把它更明確化列入到這個母法裡面這個我是可以贊同好 謝謝因為剛剛市長特別提到說會有涉及到道路風險那我們如果有這個擔心我們把它提高到這個法律位階"},{"start":20962.158,"end":20973.002,"text":"那就就就就這個道路風險反而是是可以去降低的吧好謝謝那各位沒有其他意見如果沒有我們第6條就照這個所提的版本修正通過繼續審查第8條來請行政機關表示意見第8條的部分的話"},{"start":20986.434,"end":21015.848,"text":"王玉敏委員或劉建國委員的版本的部分的話是就第八條第二項這邊把那個全部或一部改回議院啦然後那我們初步的理由會覺得是說這可能會讓病因不明確不過也尊重委員的討論是看是說到底是我們原本的原條文全部或一部這邊是比較清楚還是製議院會比較清楚然後另外一部分的話因為那個邱志偉委員的修正案的部分的話"},{"start":21017.267,"end":21043.44,"text":"他跟那個具意識能力跟具行為能力基本上面在法律上就是是兩個概念所以我們是建議是說討論的時候是不是能夠就王玉明委員或劉建國委員的版本做進一步的討論以上好謝謝市長接下來請委員針對這個第八條的修正草案沒有其他的意見"},{"start":21057.649,"end":21082.1,"text":"剛剛師長所做的這個說明裡面就是說原本的條文是具完全行為能力之人那現在包括不管是王委員或者是劉委員他們是希望把具完全行為能力之人改為具行為能力之人這樣就可以含括原有的治安人的意思就不需要說具完全行為能力"},{"start":21082.86,"end":21109.687,"text":"如果是 我不曉得法務部 法務院這邊 針對這兩個可不可以再說明一下具完全行為能力跟具行為能力之人的差異性是什麼 如果能夠互相替代的話 一個就是能夠把它簡化那如果說可以更明確的話 那具行為能力之人是不是比具完全行為能力的人更能夠讓法條的完整性可以更完整 以上"},{"start":21113.154,"end":21116.735,"text":"來 請法規會 我們陳參事陳參事在看的時候 我補充說明一下我們這第八條是針對第八條的第二項是把原有條文的全部或一部改為意願為什麼會這個樣子 這個坦白講這是安寧環球醫學會建立的啦"},{"start":21139.958,"end":21152.074,"text":"也就是說AD他不是做一個個別的醫療的一個選項所以就不用再講一部二全部就直接講醫院是這樣這個也有請示過部長因為部長對安寧緩和是強項是這樣"},{"start":21155.919,"end":21184.452,"text":"我這樣補充跟各位說明看各位能夠理解那請陳昭志委員主席我覺得加了意願兩個字會更清楚好就這第一個那第二個剛剛他們問的確實是一開始因為上面有跟原來版本還少了兩個字就是完全第一項就完全具完全行為能力之人然後其他都改成具行為能力之人那我們想請市長解釋一下完全行為跟"},{"start":21187.81,"end":21190.479,"text":"跟如果沒有完全這兩個字有差別嗎"},{"start":21193.734,"end":21219.487,"text":"跟各位報告 我們在法律上有所謂完全行為能力跟限制行為能力他在定這個就是在再敘述這兩個的差別那完全行為能力我們是講18歲以上那14歲到18歲他是限制行為能力的人所以原來的所定的就是說你要有完全行為能力的人才可以做這項事情那有限制行為能力的人"},{"start":21221.004,"end":21236.819,"text":"因為他的意識能力可能還不夠完整所以他們把那個部分排除掉了所以原來條文是希望這個慎重的事情由具備所有完全行為能力的人去做參與這樣子"},{"start":21239.679,"end":21257.073,"text":"好 謝謝 來 有要再補充嗎來 請陳委員再換黃委員我剛剛也覺得比較認同醫院這兩個字那但是我會想問醫事司 你們以前是用一部或全部應該也有發生過一些誤解或是問題有嗎"},{"start":21261.817,"end":21288.615,"text":"之前的那個全部或一部這邊的話是立法通過剛出期啦人家就說全部或一部這到底在指什麼啦其實是指上面的那個等於是類似在解釋的過程當中我不管是在維持生命治療或者是人工營養或者是人體餵養他可以選其中的之一或者是全部都選像這樣的概念是all而不是"},{"start":21289.455,"end":21314.298,"text":"而不是就是說只能夠選擇其中一個類似這樣的概念是在立法初期裡面是確實造成了一些困擾而是大概執行的過程大概到了第三年第四年以後那個Wording就比較不是個問題啦所以在這邊的話就是尊重委員會的討論的結果 以上黃委員完之後再換王委員"},{"start":21315.455,"end":21332.348,"text":"好謝謝我我不是針對這個這個第八條我想請教就是現在我們那個預立醫這個預立醫療的這個醫院簽署的這個醫院好像就是簽署率非常低那我看到那個桃園市"},{"start":21333.289,"end":21347.515,"text":"他有用這個帶狀皰疹接種的這個補助計畫裡面其中一項就是簽署預歷醫療決定書第二劑就免費那這樣子會不會影響到就是說這個我們預歷醫療的這個這個是不是會有影響這個我是覺得說因為兩"},{"start":21359.04,"end":21370.21,"text":"兩個項目是完全沒有關聯的那用帶狀皰疹第二劑免費來成為一個誘因我覺得這樣也是還滿奇怪的我是不是可以請教一下衛福部可不可以做一下回應"},{"start":21371.753,"end":21390.09,"text":"這個我們還在看那個桃園市上路之後的一個長期的效果然後我們只是就桃園市這邊設計的初衷啦他只是希望透過各種政策的結合一起來促進就是說簽署那個去做育立醫療諮商"},{"start":21391.852,"end":21416.186,"text":"就政策推動的角度我們其實是鼓勵地方政府就是發揮創意然後實質效益的部分的話我們還必須再看一下資料以上我是不是可以請教一下就是說如果是因為有的民眾他是想要就是說第二劑可以免費因為這個袋裝炮子一劑也要好幾千塊那會不會因為這樣子"},{"start":21417.847,"end":21439.974,"text":"有一些影響我覺得應該衛福部也要去做一下思考就是說他到底是有這個意願去簽這個育立醫療醫組這個決定書或者是因為他是要接種這個帶狀泡澤免費然後去簽這個決定書我覺得這樣是兩者關聯真的是還蠻奇怪的"},{"start":21441.214,"end":21465.772,"text":"謝謝委員的建議其實我們對這個議題還蠻關注的啦因為用任何的公共衛生政策能夠提升ACP的簽署率其實也是各位委員已經指導我們要去做努力的地方所以這個地方是因為短期我們目前還沒看到一些實際上的數據所以我們這邊我們會會繼續關注然後到時候再來做一個回應以上"},{"start":21468.082,"end":21487.859,"text":"因為我有跟王委員完之後再換陳委員好不好 不好意思謝謝我針對那個醫院的部分我也表達一下意思因為的確當初是用接受或拒絕維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養這全部或一部"},{"start":21488.559,"end":21501.018,"text":"但是在食物我们在执行的时候是可以让病人做一个选定他是要all或者是one of其中可以执行的部分"},{"start":21501.704,"end":21518.063,"text":"那如果我們把他改成醫院的話相對就是說他先表達當他需要的時候他可以有哪一些可以執行的內容所以我我是認同把他改成醫院會比較能夠完整表達我們這一條這個法案要傳遞出來訊息"},{"start":21519.424,"end":21542.911,"text":"不過我會比較好奇就是說我們做這樣的改變的時候我們立法說明是不是要適度的也去讓大家在參考的時候了解一下當初會從這個原來有接受不同的這個全部或一部改成意願這個立法說明當中要把這個精神或者是改變能夠呈現出這個改變的用意這是以上的建議以上好 謝謝 再來請陳清威委員"},{"start":21548.768,"end":21576.137,"text":"這邊想要請問一下法務部的代表就是法律上是分三種無行為能力或是限制行為能力或是完全行為能力我是這個但這邊的版本有一個行為能力之人這樣子多了一種說法不知道法務部會不會認為維持院版那樣子的說法會比較好完全行為能力"},{"start":21578.476,"end":21601.017,"text":"像那個委員報告因為在那個民法上完全行為能力人限制行為能力人那個主要影響到是民事契約的簽訂完全行為能力人就是說在那個一定規定年齡以上之人那民事契約他有這個能力去訂所以訂出來的民事契約會是有效的限制行為能力人通常就是說像一定年齡的未成年"},{"start":21601.818,"end":21629.331,"text":"那他訂的那個民事契約是效率會定有時候需要這個規定是需要完全行為能力人就家長 通常家長然後來同意的話他才能生效這樣無行為能力人通常就是他訂的民事契約會是無效的狀況對 那至於說為什麼會把這個行為能力放在這個這邊討論那就是可能我們還是尊重這個主管機關他們政策上的決定大概報告以上 謝謝"},{"start":21632.335,"end":21638.507,"text":"你聽清楚嗎我有很認真在聽我我我"},{"start":21642.27,"end":21666.643,"text":"因為對不起我跟各位報告一下原本我們有要修第五在修正動議第五條但是上次審查的時候第五條已經通過所以我剛剛剛開始的時候我有跟各位報告說第五條可能我們第二輪走完之後各位如果覺得這個有連動性的條文是不是可以在最後我們再來做處理不然就就要協商的時候再提修正動議然後我跟各位報告在第五條裡面是有這樣的"},{"start":21667.583,"end":21684.579,"text":"一個修正就是第五條的第三項具行為能力之病人經一位醫師診斷符合末期或中間機關公告第十四條第一項第五款疾病史後來我們再增一個第四款第四款就是針對失智的有執行權"},{"start":21688.687,"end":21714.322,"text":"的這個對象如果反之 我們的一個說明裡面是有特別提到病人不具完全行為能力之樣態不具喔 現在講不具也就是說他包括他的能力鮮有不足未經宣告對不起 就是說他不具有這個完全的行為的能力的樣態包含表示能力鮮有不足但未經宣告所以"},{"start":21716.423,"end":21743.418,"text":"我這樣說明可能大家會誤會應該說剛剛法規會陳參事還有這個法務部的一個說明來講就完全的行為能力跟具備這個行為能力基本上它還是有一個差異啦有一個差異我們在第8條裡面去談到的各位可以看這個第二項"},{"start":21746.986,"end":21771.614,"text":"我剛才是要用不具完全行為能力來解釋我覺得我這樣解釋可能大家聽不懂具行為能力之人得為預立醫療決定並得以隨時以書面測為或變更之然後原條是叫做具完全行為能力"},{"start":21774.928,"end":21784.118,"text":"雖然我再把兩句話再念一次大家應該就可以比較能夠理解說好像我們的修正的用這樣的文字基本上是比較確定性"},{"start":21788.407,"end":21804.625,"text":"比較明確來請師長說明我補充一下我們當初在寫的時候完全行為能力因為完全行為能力它有一個算是資格叫做年紀第一個就是年紀第二個就是它的"},{"start":21806.207,"end":21833.641,"text":"那個應該怎麼講就是譬如說認知的狀態我可能是成年人可能我要經過我們講的介護宣告這件事情比較清楚就是說法院要認證說這個在這個狀況下面的時候不太適合執行所以它有兩個條件一個是能力然後一個是年紀所以那時候我們講完全行為能力的時候是這兩個要件都符合"},{"start":21834.401,"end":21852.552,"text":"然後行為能力的話他就是年紀或者是那個那個能力的部分可能就部分是未達到所以在這個地方上面的話就是為什麼會有完全行為能力跟行為能力他代表的意思是不太一樣的然後我簡短的補充以上"},{"start":21855.339,"end":21883.543,"text":"我想市長也盡量說明我這邊如果再一個說明就是說為什麼要特別去強調一個完全具有完全的這個是在民法112年的時候有過這樣的修正啦他後來應該都全部改為具行為能力啦各位可不可以 法規會能不能再查一下還是法務部再查一下所以我們是讓法律的一致性就把這個具完全這完全兩個字拿掉就具行為能力嘛"},{"start":21899.21,"end":21905.872,"text":"而且六七年前在訂病桌的時候那個時候是依照的這個詞彙應該是這樣然後好像現在"},{"start":21911.261,"end":21914.532,"text":"這邊可以查到八字一嗎八字一好像也是一樣的條文一樣的文字"},{"start":21918.826,"end":21948.186,"text":"主席請說我現在了解說當初這個所謂的完全行為能力如果是配合剛剛講到的民法行為能力的用語把這個完全去除去這樣我是可以理解那我同時也把這個剛剛召委想要表達的如何能夠讓完全行為能力在司長剛剛的說明裡面來做一個補充"},{"start":21948.946,"end":21966.662,"text":"意思就是說假設一位他是受到監護或者是因為他的個人行為被剝奪他具有完全行為的法律要件之下可是他還是有他可以表達他對生命自主的一種尊重"},{"start":21967.442,"end":21991.901,"text":"不要因为他可能比如说他在坐牢因为其他因素坐牢就去剥夺到他表达对于生命自主的这种可以表达自己的意思的时候具有行为能力就能够保护他们这方面的权益我听起来意思是这样子我不知道赵伟的意思是不是这样所以意思就是说"},{"start":21993.282,"end":22018.86,"text":"18歲以下可能相對來講他比較少有機會來參與ACP跟AD的整體的決策可是如果他假設他是40歲他本身現在因為有各種因素他某一個方面的法律是被限縮了可是如果他要表達他對生命的自主病毒法是可以給他保障的這樣就不應該去剝奪他的這方面的自主的表達"},{"start":22021.081,"end":22037.052,"text":"我剛所聽到的意思好像是這個樣子在這邊把我的意思再充分的表達謝謝所以意思是我會贊成說具行為能力之人這樣事實上是足夠的好 OK來 請市長 請陳真事"},{"start":22040.403,"end":22054.529,"text":"是 謝謝趙偉那個趙偉剛剛所請我們查那個那個當時修是修年紀就把從20歲降為18那針對行為能力到底是的定義是沒有修的"},{"start":22055.902,"end":22078.585,"text":"這是第一個回答那第二個回答我們原來條文的這個定義是說把這個完全行為能力是把14到18歲這個限制行為能力人跟受監護宣告這個人通通趕快排除掉這個叫完全行為能力人那如果沒有這樣定就可能14到18歲這個有限制行為能力的人"},{"start":22080.276,"end":22088.882,"text":"有可能在解釋上會被認為說他也可以去預定醫療遺囑所以是當時是用比較嚴格的這個標準來定這個定義"},{"start":22092.898,"end":22109.986,"text":"好 那請陳委員我剛剛聽完法規會的解釋我也認為如果說這個14到18醫療機構我怕他會有所混淆他沒有辦法去判斷他是不是具有行為能力之人"},{"start":22110.686,"end":22136.815,"text":"因為民法下修到18歲就是把完全行為能力的標準降低那用年紀來判斷行為能力的程度這一點是沒有改變的那實務上就是用民法的年紀來判斷所以才分成完全限制跟無這三項現在如果我們只有寫一個行為能力我覺得醫療機構在提供這個ACP或是AD的服務會"},{"start":22139.337,"end":22142.221,"text":"會很混淆嘛對不對法規會應該是這個意思吧OK啦這個其實應該講這個醫療委任代理人"},{"start":22155.885,"end":22170.284,"text":"也有改成這個成年且具有行為能力我要怎麼表達對 然後明華是在112年前剛剛有特別跟各位報告明華承認18歲以前未成年已分責"},{"start":22171.225,"end":22192.33,"text":"具行為能力但現在已無此可能性了那所以當時寫醫療委任代理人他是以成年前這個完全的行為能力為限但是現在去把它簡化具有行為能力是沒有問題的啦我這樣解釋不曉得大家聽懂不懂有聽沒有懂喔"},{"start":22202.864,"end":22224.916,"text":"沒關係 不然這條我們先保留啦好不好 因為後面議員是沒問題 現在這個完全具行為能力跟具行為能力這個我們再再再再再下一輪再討論好不好 好 謝謝我們可能要用文字再說明清楚一點 大家大家也比較OK接下來我們處理第9條來請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":22228.707,"end":22250.044,"text":"第九條的部分的話我們先講一下7月21號我們部裡面這邊有召開了就是相關的專家的一個算是對於病毒法第九條的討論啦多數與會的專家其實是不建議調整第一項第一款的ACP執行的機構的範圍啦"},{"start":22251.886,"end":22270.488,"text":"然後其實多數都同意是說擴大執行ACP的場域然後那第二個部分的話是覺得是說如果就是擴大這樣子的話可能會造成第一線食物上面的一個壓力然後對於第二項的部分的話"},{"start":22271.249,"end":22293.307,"text":"配偶的部分的話真的是上次在立法上面有所疏漏所以是說在第二項誰可以就是說誰應該參與ACP諮商的這邊的話加入那個配偶的地方其實是多數的專家這邊也是覺得是需要的以上來請委員表示意見請蘇召委"},{"start":22301.178,"end":22318.996,"text":"我想這一條是這個法案最重要的一個部分所以上次一直講要核准到護理機構 長照機構 身體治療所諮商所等等都放寬我還是反對"},{"start":22320.458,"end":22338.156,"text":"那剛剛那個衛福部也有召開專家的會議他們是同意說場域能夠放寬這個我們同意所以我再念一遍好了經主管機關核准醫療機構"},{"start":22341.459,"end":22346.9,"text":"致育立醫療照護諮商團體致醫療機構護理機構或長照機構提供育立醫療照護諮商並經其餘育立醫療決定上合張證明"},{"start":22365.384,"end":22393.816,"text":"那至於第三項那個配偶配偶的部分我們也同意能夠加入所以就是說那個團隊也是一樣要有底的然後去不同的地方這樣大家作為者這樣可以如果要轉向開放到什麼心理治療所什麼都可以的話這個是會太不適當"},{"start":22394.716,"end":22401.464,"text":"阿嬤沒文化啦 以上好 謝謝蘇州的意見 還有請教委員要表示意見嗎來 請澄清衛委員"},{"start":22405.031,"end":22427.728,"text":"我只是echo一下蘇釗緯的說法我們上次其實都認同為了加強他的便利性開放到多個多個場域這個我們都是ok的那如果讓醫療團隊來進駐這樣是比較適合大家應該上次討論都很有感觸那我也是想要請教司長主管機關假使"},{"start":22429.45,"end":22437.084,"text":"讓醫療團隊到不同的場域來做這個諮商服務對你們來說有沒有什麼難度或是限制性 謝謝"},{"start":22439.021,"end":22462.502,"text":"如果是核准的醫療機構其實就是現在的外展服務經過那個其實是預先的報備資源其實就可以做處理所以在執行的實況裡面它的難度其實並沒有啦然後那我們會覺得是說如果是到醫療機構那個護理機構跟廠商機構是真的可以增加可敬性以上"},{"start":22467.474,"end":22491.306,"text":"來 請王委員的確這個第九條它的變動非常的大而且當初是希望能夠有一個相對完整的品質在提供ACP跟AD的過程裡面透過團隊的服務模式才能夠讓整個過程會"},{"start":22493.067,"end":22509.2,"text":"非常的讓民眾感受到說他是充分的了解掌握到對於自己生命自主的一些必要的內容至少當他有完整的諮詢不管是從醫療的從護理的"},{"start":22511.502,"end":22525.579,"text":"從精神醫學或者是心理師的諮商甚至是從社公司的幫忙等等的團隊來做完整的服務的時候他可以很具體的去最後知道他的AD要怎麼做他願不願意同意"},{"start":22527.16,"end":22546.925,"text":"當然我們也看到事情下來碰到了一些困境這個困境在經過幾次討論下來的確也可以從原來只能在醫療機構本身執行後來就有外展到可以讓更多的服務單位包括護理機構等等都能夠"},{"start":22547.845,"end":22571.285,"text":"在這個團隊協助之下可以把它完成當然我們也很期待這樣的完成可以更有擴大這個量能那不過我記得趙委員也一直在挑戰挑戰說現在要把現有的這個健保從兩萬變成四萬這個目標本身如果這樣的外展能不能達成這是一個挑戰"},{"start":22572.086,"end":22586.938,"text":"那如果未來當初是署長也說只要是65歲以上具有重大傷病包括癌症那可能就不是2萬到4萬這樣的族群而已那如果這個族群更大那"},{"start":22587.438,"end":22616.776,"text":"很多的人有了解到可以透過健保的協助之下來針對ACP跟這個AD的完成生命的選擇可以更符合自己的期待的時候如果這個量能更大的話那現有這樣的整個用團隊的服務模式是不是也能夠達到這個目標我想趙薇也非常關心也屢次在挑戰到底我們這個執行能力有沒有辦法去完成它"},{"start":22617.846,"end":22633.738,"text":"我個人的想法是認為如果對生命自主本身這是一個生命教育這個生命教育它到底是醫療行為還是非屬醫療行為這個是非常重要的一個概念"},{"start":22634.318,"end":22649.67,"text":"那如果他是一個醫療行為我們才有機會讓他是屬於健保可以提供他的這個醫療費用的一個重要的概念如果他是個輔助醫療行為大約我們也可以把他認為是個健保可以處理的部分"},{"start":22653.112,"end":22673.74,"text":"那如果都把他認為這是一個生命教育可是他並不是醫療行為也非屬非輔助醫療行為我們用健保來給付這個費用基本上我是不太認同因為畢竟所有的生命教育是應該大家都要認識的那只要你有完整的瞭解你透過專業人員去讓"},{"start":22676.201,"end":22699.624,"text":"我每一個人都能夠掌握到病毒法裡面到底是要傳遞哪一方面的生命教育只要能夠把這樣具體的去呈現的話那是不是要整完整的醫療團隊來處理才算是好的一個服務模式這一部分我們是其實可以再討論我的意思是說如果他是一個屬於健保的"},{"start":22701.178,"end":22719.021,"text":"核准之下可以使用的对象包括我们刚刚所提到的目前框定的这些族群我会认同它是属于一个辅助医疗行为重要的一部分当一个年长者他又离癌了他当然要能够先知道他未来会面临的哪一些问题"},{"start":22720.003,"end":22731.557,"text":"那如果他是一個年長者他又有三高他很快可能會面臨到一些生命的選擇的時候那他需要很完整的團隊來服務他這個是很合理的"},{"start":22731.966,"end":22754.835,"text":"他如果是一個相對年輕比如說他的家長是一個癌症病人當他在幫助他的這個年長的家人在克服癌症的過程裡面他會警覺到他對自己的生命如何能夠去掌控他可是如果他來做ACP跟AD要用健保來給予我覺得這個適當性就需要來討論"},{"start":22756.155,"end":22770.886,"text":"那如果說他願意去接受ACP跟AD是透過其他的有受過專業訓練的人去充分的掌握到病處法能夠提供給他哪一方面的服務模式可是他不是健保的這種"},{"start":22772.567,"end":22789.514,"text":"費用而是透過不管是公務費用或者是自費去協助處理的話那我會認為並不見得需要整體的醫療團隊來做這個事情所以如果能夠把這兩個部分做一些調理的話也許我們可以討論出一個更適當的方法出來"},{"start":22790.434,"end":22813.907,"text":"可是基本上就是醫師心理師或是其他相關的訓練具有一定資格的人能夠來把這個生命教育做給全民針對這個病毒法的需求來符合他這個對於生命自主的尊重或者是能掌握的話我覺得這是一個好的方向以上好 謝謝還有其他委員的意見嗎要表達嗎"},{"start":22820.233,"end":22837.306,"text":"好如果沒有我是不是在這邊簡單講幾個背景資料然後給各位做參考那王委員一直講說我是用挑戰的角度其實不是啦我是用一個實際他這個衛福部在整個執行的這個樣態現在進行式"},{"start":22840.528,"end":22859.995,"text":"包含那一天的諮詢的時候我也特別就教部長跟劉市長因為我們在諮詢的當天當下是健保署已經在5月1號公布嘛公布就是說健保要來啟戶就是65歲以上這些重症病患等等等有將近180萬是可以來做這個免費的預例醫療諮商"},{"start":22866.903,"end":22885.4,"text":"好 那在健保署已經同意要做這件事情的當下剛好我們有排這個專案報告未來就要這個病毒署法的審查那我們從這個病毒署法通過之後實施的這6年確實有這個簽署的AD是不到全國的1%啦"},{"start":22888.452,"end":22902.104,"text":"那天當年就叫市長的時候市長一想說那平均一年是兩萬那希望從這個今年度開始要可以目標提升到四萬這個都是行政機關對委員會做這樣的說明"},{"start":22903.925,"end":22925.183,"text":"那我们才会有点担忧,担忧就是说当你所谓的不去做相关的扩大或是这个法律上的一些变革,你怎么有办法已经六年的时间平均每年就是两万,到现在不到一趴的这个签署这个AD的情况之下,你如果可以让他倍增两万到四万。"},{"start":22927.445,"end":22949.036,"text":"各位懂我的意思嗎那如果通通沒有做任何的一個變動一個處理的方法那很難而且是我們是在五院混辦的辦這個專案報告那其實今年度就剩下七八個月而已那我不曉得現在進度怎麼樣這是其一啦這是其一那其二各位各位應該非常清楚現在醫療是非常緊繃的啦"},{"start":22951.494,"end":22975.744,"text":"蘇昭維本身自己都是這個專業領域的人那可能有城鄉的落差但是你看這個就很奇怪就是說越北部的這個緊繃的狀況是越厲害嘛對不對那這些醫療機構如果我們只是限定在這個育立醫療的這個諮商而已喔不是簽署就諮商而已就一定要設定在醫療機構去進行"},{"start":22978.501,"end":22984.801,"text":"各位要不要去思考一個問題你怎麼有辦法去突破怎麼有辦法去增加"},{"start":22986.001,"end":23011.952,"text":"我講說ACP就好 不用講到簽署AD你ACP沒有辦法增加 你拿的AD的量也會增加你怎麼讓你的2萬變成4萬 這是第一個問題這不叫挑戰 這大家理性來討論那第二件事情是這樣 那天我有追尋這個市長市長跟我講說 其實他們未來要擴大到診所嘛市長是這麼答覆我"},{"start":23012.572,"end":23039.918,"text":"沒有啊診所就原本就在你的醫療機構的範疇裡面了啊但是我請師長還請各位醫界的先進去調查一下現在有哪一家診所在幫你做ACP全國的診所協會可以調資料現在有幾家在做ACP比例我們講比例就好比例就好做的成效怎樣這六年"},{"start":23041.073,"end":23062.237,"text":"這六年好這是第二件事情這第二件事情那第三件事情說真的現在市長如果可以提供出來最好沒有提供出來也沒有關係我可以跟你預告了如果你提出來是說全國的徵索協會有在做ACP的有10%那今年絕對會下降"},{"start":23064.554,"end":23085.564,"text":"各位為什麼為什麼我會敢這麼講這些話國健署補助我們醫療機構針對很多的這個免費健康的篩檢那個量能是倍增的那個診察的費用也是也是怎麼跳的 各位都很清楚講白話 我做這個做不去 我做自己這個去"},{"start":23088.188,"end":23113.383,"text":"我做這個做不去 要做這個去我做這個可能是幾分鐘可以解決我做一個ACP要搞多久市長 這個還是我們委員會現在有散會最專業的醫師都在這個地方所以在衛福部體系底下建保署去同意5月1號開始180萬可以免費做ACP"},{"start":23118.203,"end":23143.724,"text":"然後一樣今年度開始我們要打造健康台灣然後雙生嘛就提高這個篩檢嘛對不對等等等那國健署又匡了一大筆經費現在在執行中喔現在在執行中好那我們現在是講就針對病人的部分喔就180萬健康的人想事先來簽的人想事先來做ACP的要去哪裡"},{"start":23149.527,"end":23171.221,"text":"那一天我們排考察的時候 王偉有去嘛 還有趙志偉也有去那台北市立的總院的總院長剛好不在不過他派出的代表也特別強調我們為什麼去考察那一家因為他是全國簽署AD最多 ACP做最多的醫院"},{"start":23173.376,"end":23199.839,"text":"那總院長 建哥啦 大家都叫他建哥他其實 他也是醫療背景 他也是專業的醫師他要當做總院長他覺得這個 你這邊再擴你其他的東西都不去調整然後你還要醫師來做 一定要專職的醫師來做這些那不可能的事情嘛 那做不出來嘛對一間病房 我怎麼做"},{"start":23203.485,"end":23230.253,"text":"這是他講話啦所以你如果要達到這個目標如果做這件事情的目標是正確的做這件事情是對的那基本上行政機關 衛福部行政機關他已經在擴大免費的ACP的諮商了他擴大了 五月要擴大這個不是你講的不是我講的是他們健保署 衛福部一定也是報部 最後同意的嘛對不對那我們在擔心說你開這麼多你是怎麼做"},{"start":23233.847,"end":23249.155,"text":"你又不擴大場域你又不給其他的這些機構可以來做你全部都擠到一個醫療緊繃的這個機構裡面然後又要做這些事情這是要加租給我們的醫護人員是要做到不做還是要給他做成他們多少負擔我看那天你說這個樣態可能會發生的情況然後我還沒有講到國健署"},{"start":23263.17,"end":23271.934,"text":"然後各位應該都有診所的朋友嘛就問他們很清楚這你們要做這個時間你們要做最後再補充說針對病患擴大這個量能針對健康的人有意願的人要來做ACP"},{"start":23280.751,"end":23298.45,"text":"就我現在的理解當然北中南有可能這個要看市長的調查怎麼樣北中南可能情況不太一樣我的理解北區北區應該應該要排到兩三個月都未必能夠能夠排上去諮商那"},{"start":23299.332,"end":23319.472,"text":"那我們今天推這個政策然後又要增加這樣的兩到四萬如果可以去到這個年底可以達標各位聽我這麼講是不是大家在做一個思考了好不好謝謝我可不可以補充一下我先補充一下那個一些實際上面"},{"start":23322.214,"end":23337.955,"text":"實際上面執行的狀況的第一件事情其實這個還是第一個是認知上面到底有沒有改變然後所以過去幾年其實我們在做宣導教育的時候其實也希望民眾能夠接受過去的資料顯示"},{"start":23339.396,"end":23359.688,"text":"會接受要去做育育諮商的這件事情的幾乎都是在生命的旅程裡面有過這樣子的事件包括了他的家人或包括他的本人才會去簽署所以在衝擊面的部分的話我們為什麼像那個趙偉這邊問我們的時候我們是持樂觀的態度的原因是因為"},{"start":23360.288,"end":23387.277,"text":"而認知的改變沒那麼快所以衝擊可能不會馬上造成而是我們做的準備度的部分的話其實在行政流程裡面並不是是說去一個去病人的家裡面就只能做一件事其實是同步一起做的話其實有些行政程序的一個合併讓排程變得比較順利譬如說像社工啦像那個我們講的"},{"start":23389.458,"end":23415.051,"text":"臨床或者是護理人員先去做一個preparation這樣子醫師再去確認那個所謂的諮商的時間可以縮短就是怎麼樣在維護品質下面透過各多多重團隊的一個成員來做協助把這個品質維持住然後把最關鍵的一個確定跟醫師談完的確定這個意向的那個"},{"start":23416.272,"end":23445.254,"text":"品質把它維持住其實是最近這兩年我們在跟專業團隊在做討論的時候利用協作的方式把整個程序而不是一定是要串聯一關做一關 一關做一關其實用並聯的方式有一些先做先起的準備在正式之上的時候才能夠達到同樣的效果然後目前是以這種改善行政效率的方式來做一個我們提升量能的準備"},{"start":23445.934,"end":23475.594,"text":"然後第三個其實是我們的基層這邊受過訓在我們居家醫療這邊受過訓的人員已經有資格的大概已經達到九成了然後那我現在沒有辦法回復是說到底有多少基層診所這邊有在做可是這個數字我們是覺得有會樂觀其成因為大家都知道是說去看病人的時候其實在高齡化的社會其實不管是家屬也好病人也好"},{"start":23475.934,"end":23501.617,"text":"甚至醫生的期待在開口談這件事情現在比過去容易啦我補充以上三點 謝謝好 謝謝 請蘇昭偉我們現在在做淨資產的宣告以前都是法官 書記官來到醫院就當那個病人然後由醫師就直接會同判定這個是法院非常堅持的"},{"start":23502.538,"end":23530.462,"text":"那現在也開放了現在就是病人如果在家裡那法官跟書記官還有醫師是大家一起到這個病人家屬到病人的家裡去做判定這個現在也OK所以這個團隊如果現在是有一個團隊是受訓的 認可的然後他們到各個地方就長照機構 護理機構都可以去那邊做判定"},{"start":23531.222,"end":23540.308,"text":"我們是樂觀其成那因為在那邊做一做也可以直接就簽署 鋪張了都可以做"},{"start":23541.348,"end":23562.103,"text":"那你說一套的契約大家都可以去做我是擔心啦所以用主管機關核准的團隊去各個機構去提供預立醫療的諮商甚至以決定甚至以合張證明是好的"},{"start":23563.822,"end":23582.396,"text":"開放這樣 先這樣 趙薇先這樣走 大家看嘛希望一個像這樣 慕容這麼大我非常高興來 請陳委員對不起 趙薇因為我也有找了幾位我做這個的同學稍微聊了一下"},{"start":23582.936,"end":23601.213,"text":"就跟市長講的一樣現在面臨的我們當然都覺得量希望可以衝起來可是品質品質是他講完這個他到底有沒有完全的理解那ACP就像蘇昭薇講的ACP跟AD是連動的你如果ACP做得好"},{"start":23601.733,"end":23625.785,"text":"那由護理師 心理師 社工師做得好但是最後這個在健保卡上做註記這個AD這個動作交由醫生來做認證合張然後把它一氣呵成否則你簽了做了再多ACP那他沒有轉換成AD他最後也沒有落實最後你對生命有尊重有權利的這樣子的效果"},{"start":23627.382,"end":23641.418,"text":"那假使他一口氣開放到全部的人員還有這麼多的場地我覺得144現在有很大的難題你根本沒有辦法去讓他的品質達到一致還有其他補充嗎"},{"start":23652.787,"end":23667.727,"text":"我在這邊再稍微把剛剛我所聽到的再做一些整理對我來講我們知道一個會牽扯到健保給付費用我剛剛也有說明說當他是要健保給付費用"},{"start":23668.368,"end":23687.259,"text":"病人不應該說病人是說有一個有醫院人他希望透過現有的服務模式就是團隊經過說明以後他認知到ACP最後簽署了AD從病毒法的精神是給他一個好的保障"},{"start":23687.879,"end":23703.099,"text":"未來他可以不需要其他人幫他做決定是我自己來做決定就是目前目前我們在執行的部分那現在剛剛所提到的問題就是說那如果"},{"start":23704.269,"end":23719.385,"text":"如果現在健保提供的這個3000元的諮商費是透過健保給付所以病人是應該說簽署者他醫院者他是不需要再另外付費的這是現有的制度那如果"},{"start":23720.266,"end":23746.789,"text":"如果一個年輕人相對他父親或者是母親或其他家人的關係他對他生命自主想要有更強烈的這種自我的認知跟去做確認的話那假設他不符合條件的時候一定就不知道怎麼處理就對了因為他基本上就會變成說那他自廢嘛"},{"start":23748.111,"end":23751.336,"text":"智慧當然就可以執行如果這樣的量"},{"start":23753.43,"end":23776.998,"text":"或者是這樣的品質本身不一定因為他還沒有真的面對到他這個生命本身帶來的衝擊的時候他想要做這兩個事情我們現在透過如何去滿足這個需求這個法條裡面第九條基本上就是希望能夠有機會去同時去合併這兩個需求"},{"start":23779.199,"end":23794.552,"text":"所以我看到目前召委這邊也提了一個修正動議就是希望是不是能夠同時去滿足這兩方面的需求來服務增加量能那這個如果要滿足剛剛提到不是健保"},{"start":23796.674,"end":23814.186,"text":"來出這個諮商費而是由假設這個年輕人他覺得他願意去接受這樣的諮商他也願意自費當然這個費用是不是一定要3000元這個是可以另外再處理的或者是去討論的他如果需要這樣的話是不是一定要經過這個原來我們現在所規範的團隊才能夠提供這個服務"},{"start":23818.169,"end":23833.601,"text":"如果其他比如說有接受過完整訓練的人他可以把這個精神傳遞出去的話那我們把條這個規定是不是能夠有機會來滿足這個需求同時又能夠協助到整個"},{"start":23834.281,"end":23847.996,"text":"未來對病毒法的實施上帶來的這些量能上的衝擊我想我們提高調應該就是你討論這個嘛所以等一下是不是看趙薇是不是有其他在讓大家討論的時候可以更聚焦的 以上"},{"start":23848.683,"end":23872.768,"text":"好 不是蘇昭偉已經在跟我暗示叫我保留我是在10公里之外你嘴巴怎麼動我都知道你在講什麼這第9條我們有再提修正動議我請陳委員還有蘇昭偉再看一下其實坦白講這個是大家可以共同做提案的這其實是王委員的"},{"start":23873.488,"end":23897.919,"text":"的智慧因為剛剛為什麼先不談整個法條在修正動議的內容市長答覆我還是在之前尚未修正動議是修正的條文那我只是在當時提這個法條修正的時候是在講一個背景資料剛剛市長答覆過程裡面有幾句話也跟陳委員所講的內容是一致的就是這個品質我們還是要顧"},{"start":23900.714,"end":23921.372,"text":"我當然知道品質要顧啊但其實擴大要滋傷 免費滋傷的量能不是委員會要求啊是健保署在5月1號公告的嘛當時是透過什麼樣的評估這個評估裡面難道他們沒有去思考到一下子擴大到180萬他們不用兼顧到品質他們不需要去理解到醫療機構現在這麼樣緊繃的情況嗎"},{"start":23924.946,"end":23951.629,"text":"而且這些多數 各位都很清楚嘛65歲以上是針對這個多重慢性病啦還是重大疾病 還是甚至於這個癌症末期的對象 對不對那這些基本上都在機構裡面都已經在機構裡面那我們是從這樣的角度在垂尋思長你這180萬你要做多久才可以完成才可以完成嘛"},{"start":23952.822,"end":23965.407,"text":"我們顯然沒有得到答案當然也不是一百八十萬都免費那一百八十萬就全部來做今天在討論這個免八十兩秒的道理一樣你有沒有低推估 你有沒有中推估"},{"start":23967.772,"end":23990.712,"text":"這樣的情況之下 如果低推過來講會造成你剛剛所講的ACP在整個進行的行政程序你要如何去怎樣縮 怎樣精 怎樣達到這個品質的保障然後你又可以創造出這個量能最終來符合你所謂的ACP 進階到簽署AD的量能再提高嘛"},{"start":23992.95,"end":24007.812,"text":"我們就是沒有得到答案啊所以我們會擔憂嘛 會擔心嘛那我們才想說今天透過修華我們希望兼顧品質然後也是一樣要提高這個量能因為這個最終的這個目標基本上"},{"start":24008.513,"end":24037.091,"text":"不要再有过多的无效医疗然后也让健康的人事先都可以去理解到这个生命的整个这样的意义的存在然后可能遇到这个第十款所规范的这五款的这个症状的时候你本人及你的家人都不用再过度在那边有冲突犹豫不决的情况之下也不要让这个医师在执行AD过程里面产生没有必要的这种伤害跟困扰"},{"start":24037.771,"end":24065.943,"text":"所以我們才會才會在主張在修嘛是這個樣子那基本上還是配合衛福部行政機關你們希望可以達到了這樣的目標所以我想兩兆市要追尋的目標是一致的啦但是這個看法怎麼會這麼迥異我是覺得覺得是不是是不是回歸到回歸到我們現在這6年的執行狀態"},{"start":24068.73,"end":24082.739,"text":"這六年的執行狀態在醫療機構執行的情況為什麼這六年才一趴嘛 對不對那你要讓下一年 讓今年你要讓它達到多少 兩萬變四萬你要怎麼達標嘛"},{"start":24086.397,"end":24110.018,"text":"我還是希望你們針對這個問題來做答覆嘛這是一件事情喔這個是市長上位做報告之前準備做這個報告的時候所講的但是那個擴大到180萬的健保署去免費要做這個諮商我不曉得跟你意思是有沒有聯動有沒有事先溝通有沒有 我也不清楚"},{"start":24111.636,"end":24137.455,"text":"總而言之 言而總之我們先天透過這個修法其實王委員也是醫療的背景他最終最終想出一個權宜之策就是分流嘛分流就是說你180萬你健保署同意免費的這部分你一樣就在醫療機構因為他多數也都在醫療機構但是像人家健康的想要來參與你國家的政策"},{"start":24138.862,"end":24165.377,"text":"想要來事先做這個育立醫療的決定然後我必須要先過諮商你不要讓我等兩個月三個月四個月我還要智慧呢你多開一個場域出來也是你們自己講的啊那為什麼你就不能接受這些場域難道多接受擴大到這些場域你們很難管理你們擔心這樣品質就會壞了"},{"start":24166.704,"end":24191.829,"text":"你不去開網你怎麼知道還是這些原本就不是你管的所以就不要在這個法律給我動因為法律是我管的不對啊我們既然目標是一致的怎麼會一直幫行政機關來想辦法難道我們是不是很雞婆我們雞婆這邊也有專業背景的人"},{"start":24196.812,"end":24209.764,"text":"請你細看這個再修正動議你把這個修正動議的內容看完之後你來答覆 我覺得你看不去想到我們的心 好不好對啦 這樣啦 不然我是會覺得"},{"start":24211.089,"end":24228.075,"text":"真的啦 因為那時候在修正動議的時候還沒有出來的時候他這樣答覆我沒有意見啦但是在提這個修正動議的內容你看完之後不然他這個答覆跟之前答覆是一樣嘛我們之前答覆他答覆說我們就在反對這個面向的事情啦以上拜託 抱歉"},{"start":24229.445,"end":24256.123,"text":"好 报告赵伟因为这个修正动议我刚刚跟王正旭委员稍微讨论完了那我懂您的意思但我也想知道说您在提这个在修正动议您有稍微想你的团队的成员大概要几位什么背景那卫福部如果要定可能执法或是法条去认证这些人的资格"},{"start":24259.865,"end":24278.664,"text":"是我想要知道落實您這個修正動議所要花費的成本時間成本 法條等等的這個能我再做一個說明因為其實要再修這個法的時候其實也都有再去拜訪總院長當然其實"},{"start":24282.615,"end":24310.533,"text":"医界也有这样的声音有这样的声音嘛对不对这个都无可厚非啦每一个专科的医师对这个看法也有不太一样的见解这个我们都尊重嘛好那至于刚刚市长也特别提到说如果在医疗机构基本上他可以怎样去精简到浓缩整个资商的这个行政程序呢我说真的啊"},{"start":24312.395,"end":24335.572,"text":"要怎麼去做其實也是口頭聽市長這麼講而已嘛對不對你最終要留給醫師是幾分鐘最終是醫師來決定嗎你是心理師最後決定還是心理師要最前面決定所以你的行政所謂的智商的行政程序你怎麼去說"},{"start":24337.495,"end":24353.282,"text":"我不太清楚 這個也要明確出來然後在醫療機構在辦法裡面的規範我講真的 這個量如果大起來的話你寫的這些人 都會全部都在裡面嗎"},{"start":24358.412,"end":24370.441,"text":"有多少人在同一時間的地方還是照排班一個鐘頭這個人10分鐘那個人15分鐘那個人10分鐘最後醫生就5分鐘然後就最後就結束了是這樣嗎可以安排到這麼樣的恰當嗎"},{"start":24372.686,"end":24396.326,"text":"然後我剛剛才特別提到說你把醫療機構寒帶診所都帶進來那我才說你看診所目前截至目前為止就健保國健署還沒有補助相關的這個篩檢的這個經費的時候你的那個量能是多少那你現在量是一定是銳減的啦這是現狀這是衝突的這是實際上可以預估到的情況"},{"start":24399.008,"end":24427.604,"text":"所以陳委要問我這個到底這個team多少當然還是依照現在的辦法去規範不過我會期待那個辦法是要修的啦不一樣是做不出去啦是這樣啦因為我們的母法沒有去動到他們要幾個人幾個人的問題沒有是這樣其實我們是想動但是這一關都沒有過就不用去想到下一關是這樣以上報告"},{"start":24432.695,"end":24436.139,"text":"我補充一下 目前我們核准的診所是154家"},{"start":24438.767,"end":24465.242,"text":"所以我會覺得是說過去我們一年多的準備其實就是希望能夠擴大從基層這邊連動到我們在社區裡面包括了居護所包括了一些心理治療所之間的一個連動所以我才會覺得是說其實現在都是努力的方向其實是不變只是是說這個新增的條文就是核准的機構"},{"start":24467.905,"end":24482.343,"text":"從醫療機構護理機構長照機構因為現在已經就是多團隊的合作的這一部分然後那其實那時候在做專家討論的時候像包括了護理機構其實就反應是說如果標注他們的時候他們的壓力會很大"},{"start":24483.024,"end":24510.027,"text":"他們覺得他們的臨床工作的那個狀況其實已經壓力很大的狀況之下的話他們其實是想要是說有外展團隊來這邊提供服務他們比較希望是以這樣的模式來進行所以才會經過7月21號的討論之後我們才會覺得是說譬如說像剛剛蘇偉元講的就是由醫療機構的諮商團隊然後外展到"},{"start":24512.025,"end":24535.515,"text":"那個所謂的護理機構或是廠照機構去提供這樣子的諮商服務其實就是可以做擴大量能的一個想法啦以上我這個可能要完整的請市長說明一下護理機構他怎麼會擔心把他框進去之後他馬上會增加他的量能然後造成"},{"start":24537.837,"end":24563.578,"text":"這個說法我覺得有點納悶你看你自己講100 現今調查診所協會 診所的部分才150幾家嘛對不對那你全國的診所是幾家所以我剛剛講說你講你不用講講幾家你跟委員會報告是你的爬線嘛 幾趴嘛對不對那也不可能開放護理師家 全部護理師家都要做 都會做啊所以他們在擔心什麼這個這個邏輯是什麼不太清楚 抱歉"},{"start":24564.824,"end":24588.37,"text":"我補充一下這個地方其實當天在與會的時候是因為是說只要法條上面有寫對這個護理之家而言他就會造成是說民眾就會說明明就可以做你為什麼不做所以他們而且很擔心是說督考裡面又加進去就造成了他的壓力所以在這一段上面而言他們就寧可希望是說"},{"start":24589.31,"end":24603.129,"text":"不要提及他們如果是外展服務的話以這樣子做做漸進式的一個合作他們覺得是比較容易達成未來的目標啦以上沒有啦 市長你這樣給我答案我會聽到越聽越難聽"},{"start":24606.894,"end":24633.342,"text":"你說好聽說叫做調整說到壞聽你就自己講自我矛盾的話語就同理可證對不對那你這麼講護理機構會有這樣的擔憂會被人家質疑挑戰你能做你為什麼不做那你診所協會診所不是診所協會對不起你診所可以做你為什麼到現在才100多家在做那些診所為什麼不被挑戰"},{"start":24635.287,"end":24662.3,"text":"而且你實行多久了呢第六年第七年了對不對你要不要跟我說啊這邏輯不通啦沒關係啦因為因為要三點半我們休息一下就好來 次長次長要說謝謝謝謝因為召委在座各位大家好其實我可以有嗎"},{"start":24663.787,"end":24681.932,"text":"我可以完全理解啦這個醫界當然有醫界的這個考慮不過其實像剛剛召委剛剛所說其實有量能上的問題嘛我現在是這樣我是說是不是可以嘗試啦看我們是不是很豐盛我們剛才那個王正修委員也有說嘛說說"},{"start":24683.892,"end":24704.839,"text":"我原則上是不是還是可以以這一個醫療機構就是剛剛說的我們現在剛剛蘇昭偉也有講到一個就是說經過醫事這邊的一個相關的一個認證等等這些可以派出去這是一個部分我們也目前也已經在做了"},{"start":24705.479,"end":24725.107,"text":"但是現在我們稍微也要關心的說我們是不是有量能的問題我們是不是也有其他的一些可能性我們是不是可以建立一個大家參考看看一個所謂雙軌制啦所謂雙軌制意思是說我們現在目前有Medical的部分那邊的話可能也是健保那邊有支付嘛剛才稍微也有說我們那個"},{"start":24729.09,"end":24742.423,"text":"180萬的那些我們就繼續進行但是像這邊比較像是就比較偏向像生命教育等等這些我們是不是也可以在我們這一個第九條這邊也把它融入"},{"start":24743.284,"end":24766.92,"text":"但是這個部分看要用什麼條文的方式來進行但是它可幾副方式剛剛好像王志勛委員有建議就是說我們就盡量從我們現在目前現有的一些有公務預算或者說自費也可以啊或等等這些方式先適行這種方式來進行就是說我們就兼容並蓄啦這第九條這邊已經已經有的"},{"start":24770.098,"end":24796.476,"text":"我們原條文的裡面已經有的部分我們繼續進行而且來而且最重要是要向召委所說我們要144這邊也要全力來推動但是呢另外有一個部分是比較屬於你剛才說的像那個心理治療所啦或者說比較屬於生命教育的部分我們是不是可以用其他經費的方式來支持是不是很方便"},{"start":24798.266,"end":24815.834,"text":"好 我的修正動議給請社長市長還有兩位委員再看一下啦基本上 大致上就成如社長所講的但是健康的人基本上他還是要自己付費啦好 這個反而我們是這個是要是王委員的智慧對啦"},{"start":24817.794,"end":24841.762,"text":"對阿你沒有去擴大這一個可以進來諮商的場域你怎麼有辦法去做到這些事情不可能嘛你全部要擠在醫療機構裡面那更不可能那個品質也不會好啦坦白講是這個樣子嘛到目前來請王委員建議休息幾分鐘我剛才要休息就刺長兄說他要再講不然他以前都會弄髒說他要先他今天要動很久他身體煩惱"},{"start":24848.633,"end":24849.52,"text":"好了好了"},{"start":27647.734,"end":27676.565,"text":"好不好意思休息這麼久因為一直少一位這個非常有愛心的委員那現在這個有愛心的委員到了叫林月琴委員我們大家鼓掌一下好不好謝謝好那我們在第9條先保留啦請這個議事是在提相關的這個文字修正我們在第三輪的時候再討論那接下來是不是來進行這個保留條文第10條"},{"start":27677.762,"end":27705.953,"text":"的處理好請行政機關表示意見第10條第10條的部分的話經過我們就是8月份的那個專家討論之後其實對於就是說第10條第2原本條文的第10條第2項"},{"start":27706.653,"end":27733.032,"text":"也就是說對於醫療委任代理人的消極資格的部分的話食物專家其實是覺得是說這個消極資格的取消其實是可以尊重委員會的討論因為食物上面到目前為止執行上面就算取消好像影響並不大所以就是可能對於執行醫療委任代理人這個概念有的宣導應該是有助益的所以這邊"},{"start":27734.012,"end":27748.49,"text":"其實我們會尊重委員會的討論然後那有一個是在這幾次的討論當中的話不管是王育民委員或者是德國委員針對醫療委任代理人或監護人的後面都加了一個監護人"},{"start":27749.731,"end":27763.742,"text":"然後專家會議的一個意見部裡面也覺得是說這個意見提供給委員們做參考是因為病毒法它想要強調的是醫療委任待人這個概念所以是不是能夠就是說"},{"start":27765.743,"end":27789.897,"text":"不要增加監護人這個概念來處理而是強調醫療委任代理人他的功能因為在原本的法律制度裡面監護人他在代理的幾乎都是生活照顧這部分很少會有就是說特別專門針對醫療委任代理人的部分以上好謝謝對不起這個也有王志俊委員所提的修正動議我們一併討論來請王委員"},{"start":27793.274,"end":27814.184,"text":"好 那剛剛市長跟大家報告有關於這個監護人在這個地方是不是能夠不要去修訂增加招委還有我也希望能夠把代監護人放進去這部分我是會覺得市長其實說的是也蠻有清楚的話"},{"start":27814.844,"end":27833.127,"text":"就是我們這個精神是希望是醫療委任代理人來協助跟監護人相對來講就不是那個太直接所以我會認同說我們還是用維持醫療委任代理人就可以把這個整個事情做得非常的完整"},{"start":27833.857,"end":27847.442,"text":"那另外我們的修正動議裡面是希望能夠把本來的條文裡面有三類不得為醫療委任代理人的這個部分做個調整"},{"start":27847.918,"end":27877.518,"text":"因為基本上包括第一款 醫院人是受疑症人第二款 醫院人遺體或器官指定是受症人 第三款 其他因醫院人死亡而獲得利益之人 那基本上其實對於這個簽署者來講是不會有任何把這個移除掉以後造成在他的權益上帶來的影響 我們不用擔心說如果因為這個醫院人死亡而獲得利益的話"},{"start":27878.418,"end":27904.458,"text":"基本上他生前會願意讓這一個醫院人死亡而獲得利益的這個對象一定是他信賴的人所以你現在我拿到的其實就沒有那個紓要性所以我們才會把這個三款的相關的這些不得為醫療代理人這樣做做調整就是不要再整列這部分那希望能夠得到大家的認同以上"},{"start":27906.055,"end":27930.047,"text":"好謝謝王委員還有其他意見嗎那如果沒有這邊簡單做一下補充這個我覺得王委員的這個修正還還還蠻不錯的因為這之前有所謂的那那第一項的那三款這個全部都就就拿掉了對不對應該"},{"start":27934.195,"end":27954.727,"text":"王委員是把這個部分全部取消掉因為這過去是有一些也是立法上的一些妥協跟爭議我這邊修正也是把它拿掉但是為什麼會多一個醫療委任代理人或監護人這邊補充說明然後看各位的意見怎麼樣就是說"},{"start":27957.049,"end":27972.656,"text":"這個醫療委內代理人必然是當事人這個十分信任的人那同時代理人是表達當事人在執行這個AD上的一個意願而且是不具有干預這個醫療行為及現場判斷所以這個基本上是沒有什麼道德風險的存在"},{"start":27973.757,"end":27984.742,"text":"那監護人應該也是同這個上述了 且這個監護人 這個各位再參考一下為什麼會把監護人再增加進去 監護人在民法上本來就符合醫療決議的資格"},{"start":27988.221,"end":28003.736,"text":"這個大家理解一下那本條件是賦予監護人在醫療委任代理人支持權只是將民法與病毒法的法規做一個整合避免這個醫療委任的代理人與監護人在醫療上這個決策在決策的醫療上發生了這個衝突跟焊隔"},{"start":28012.183,"end":28026.928,"text":"所以各位聽看看需不需要放進去這個我沒有特別的意見 只是過後當時的修正條文是有把這個清護冷放在這裡面的意義是在這個地方 當真的萬一有一天出了兩兆的時候有不一樣意見要怎麼辦"},{"start":28029.23,"end":28043.11,"text":"來請市長還是誰我補充一下讓我們承參就是我們在專家委員會在討論的時候其實食物界的專家們是希望是說既然病人自主權利法的話應該"},{"start":28045.753,"end":28068.782,"text":"貫徹醫療委任代理人這個概念啦以這樣子來講的時候其實就是當我們在討論病人自主的這一段的時候應該是以醫療委任代理人優先這樣的概念來處理因為或就變兩個平行比較容易引起漢格啦這是我們在那天專家委員會討論的時候反而覺得這樣會更引起比較引起誤解然後法規這邊的話我就跟我們家那個法規會"},{"start":28070.976,"end":28099.206,"text":"是跟各位報告就病人的權益在就醫的這一個部分跟這個病主法跟民法兩個來比較看起來病主法是一個特別的規定那特別的規定如果說單獨只有醫療委任代理人比較頭上的話不要把監護人放進來因為監護人可能是事後病人發生昏迷以後才去選定的"},{"start":28101.202,"end":28118.697,"text":"醫療代理人可能是在他清醒的時候選定的所以他可能比較清楚病人他當時的決定那監護人是事後選定的沒有經過病人的相關溝通他那時候的決定可能跟醫療委任代理人不同可能會造成兩個的衝突"},{"start":28120.236,"end":28145.263,"text":"那特別法既然規定說由醫療委任委任代理人來執行的話那可以排除到民法的適用這個是大家基本上看法OK好但是簽護人怎麼是後來才當然醫療委任代理人是在這個簽署AD之前嘛對不對"},{"start":28148.803,"end":28151.385,"text":"醫療人帶了人你剛因為我剛聽陳氏的講話對不對對啊監護人有可能嗎對對沒有錯啊嗯"},{"start":28186.142,"end":28200.628,"text":"來 請管委員是 有時候一種狀況因為理論上我們都希望這一位簽署ACP跟AD的這位都需要有一個醫療委任代理人"},{"start":28201.668,"end":28224.549,"text":"這個其實在執行的時候有時候他要搞那個他會有點困難我現在要找人一定要聽到完整才能夠做後續這個的確是有他的困難不過理論上他要簽署完整都必須要有所謂的醫療委任代理人這個人的存在他才會辦法完成這個可能將來我們也需要針對這一點再來做處理"},{"start":28226.931,"end":28244.321,"text":"現在如果他已經確定有醫療委任代理人的時候那跟監護人之間的競合就會造成困擾所以為什麼我們不希望說讓這個法條在同時存在著醫療委任代理人或監護人在處理過程當中帶來的這個會影響到"},{"start":28247.783,"end":28269.591,"text":"到時候執行萬一兩照意見不一致的時候那應該要聽誰的這樣的不好執行的一種現況所以如果我們既然已經確定他是在神智清楚的情形之下他已經有一個醫療委任代理人那我們就不需要有監護人來做這個事情來協同做這個事情以上好那各位有沒有其他意見"},{"start":28276.451,"end":28287.666,"text":"沒有沒關係 第10條我們就依照這個黃正訓委員的修正動議來通過了好不好好謝謝好謝謝那接下來我們處理第12條"},{"start":28291.034,"end":28318.911,"text":"請行政機關表示意見12條的部分的話王玉敏委員然後劉建國委員就是今天的在修正動議這邊的話我先補充一下第一件事情是在上次在諸條審議的時候有問我們是說如果原本原本的條文的第三項就是如果在註記的這一段的行政程序我先補充這一段"},{"start":28319.751,"end":28346.423,"text":"就我們經我們了解之後因為原本有手動手動的程序所以中間的簽完AD到註記在健保卡這邊的一個那個系統的時間要三天然後目前的話用自動借接預計十月會完成系統的借接就變成是每個小時交換註記資料所以就是說因為系統上面會在十月底之前就會修正完成"},{"start":28346.923,"end":28370.744,"text":"所以我們覺得是說在那個系統的修正的這部分其實是可以建議就是維持原條文然後對於新修正版本因為我們過去的都是由機構上傳機構上傳這邊的話會確認上傳資料的正確性包括了醫院人啊包括了我相關的最後的記錄這件事情"},{"start":28371.204,"end":28383.748,"text":"然後新的版本是由醫院人直接上傳的這件事情的話誰來做刊物的這一邊的的一個把關所以我們大概建議是說是不是能夠維持原條文以上好 行政官表示要維持建立原條文那我們有再提一個修正動議就是針對這個第二項裡面部分"},{"start":28397.256,"end":28415.45,"text":"有別於是這個原有修正條文是應先由第九條第一項第一款所列的機構或法人以掃描電子檔存記於中央主管機關資料庫或由醫院人上傳網路版預立預料決定書於中央主管機關資料庫"},{"start":28417.513,"end":28431.293,"text":"這個網路版的預立醫療決定書應經預立這個醫療照護諮商提供機構或法人數位簽署以獲這個第九條第一項第一款資核章證明規定"},{"start":28432.945,"end":28457.07,"text":"這個地球條還沒有修正這第一那第二這個可能要給市長各位做參考這個其實是自行上船的問題報稅也都可以自行上船各類補助現在很多的我們這個各單位都已經有開放給民眾自行在線上的執行所以這些作業應該不會因為這個線上"},{"start":28459.831,"end":28484.986,"text":"線上化而發生比資本時代更嚴重的品質問題我想這個應該是與時要俱進現在也推行無紙化的線上作業我想還是在系統跟審查機制所以剛剛市長有講到是你們的系統什麼時候可以10月底如果10月底可以的話修這個法應該就不會有什麼衝突吧"},{"start":28485.922,"end":28513.935,"text":"我要講的是說因為我們的網路版的獄力醫療決定其實還是醫療機構這邊要有戳記也就是說講白話就是醫療機構要有蓋章就是機構要蓋章要有機構章就表示這個文件是這個機構因為到時候有什麼問題的時候機構必須負責有管理的責任然後如果是醫院人上傳的話那個是還沒有確認過的那就傳上去的話"},{"start":28515.836,"end":28539.827,"text":"柯澤的客體會不一樣啦所以我們才會覺得是說對這一段有意願人上傳的這件事情有些疑慮啦以上我的這個修正動議的說明裡面有很清楚嗎你的華人數位簽章這網路版還有機構啦或華人數位簽章都有啊所以都可以做得到的事情這個有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":28545.56,"end":28566.193,"text":"因為現在就是說我們要講的是個人上傳跟機構上傳機構上傳的時候我們醫療法規有對醫療機構有苛責是說傳錯或是不實這邊的問題然後上傳是個人的這件事情的時候後面我的可苛責性會有問題啦我很難去"},{"start":28566.753,"end":28582.217,"text":"主張一些責罰因為我們的醫療法基本上面是處罰醫療機構跟醫事人員所以在這個法裡面如果由醫院來上傳的這件事情如果出錯這件事情可苛責性我們會有點疑慮以上"},{"start":28589.653,"end":28608.332,"text":"然後請上網委員我很認真聽到趙委員可能還會覺得怪怪的就是說我如果自己洗都用好洗了然後我按個鍵就傳出去了這個當然後面到底是誰來負責的處作到現在裡面有一些不是那麼"},{"start":28609.433,"end":28626.04,"text":"是確實的資料的話 那你上到雲端以後 什麼人可以幫你處理後面的問題那剛剛市長他所提出來一個問題是說他現在如果是去諮商的而且也完成了AD的簽署你認為說"},{"start":28627.02,"end":28644.689,"text":"理論上應該要有這個同意 整個簽署完成以後 要有一個簽章代表說這已經完成了所以這個東西完成之後通常都是一個document 都是一個paper嘛這paper就是政府 包括醫療機構 應該是醫療機構就會負責上傳嘛"},{"start":28646.75,"end":28670.268,"text":"我們現在執行是這樣 稍微意思是說如果大家都說好了透過網路系統直接傳去就好了可是如何去讓這個章可以核實這些規定我們現在目前的這個網路有沒有辦法做到這一點如果技術上可以克服的話基本上是可以啦問題就是說"},{"start":28671.329,"end":28692.545,"text":"如果他是去ACP又完成了ADE理論上他應該是在那個單位在那個機構他需不需要要重新又回去說我自己回來做需不需要有這個流程當然新科技是可以解決一些問題可是從我們這個流程來看新科技要幫到這一部分好像除非我們有改變整個流程的設計不然其實是"},{"start":28694.847,"end":28722.407,"text":"不需要讓這一位醫院人又重新自己根據我要用新科技 我覺得得到這個新科技帶來的這個生活上的幫助 又做了這個部分這樣好像只是重複做了本來他可以在原機構做的事情他回去用這個新科技去完成這樣感覺很鬆懈啦 不過是不是有實際幫忙就不知道 可是他可能會漏掉的就是說那個簽章核實那部分要怎麼確定"},{"start":28730.075,"end":28749.83,"text":"你不補充 你的疑慮不補充你說有點疑慮 有點可以說明一下我們講的有點疑慮其實就是在機構裡面看完也就是做完預列醫療諮商之後其實我們需要機構去做一個最後的確認確認之後其實醫療機構就直接上傳"},{"start":28750.791,"end":28770.839,"text":"然後我們現在是上傳那邊到健保註記這邊要手動所以卡住所以中間有三天的一個落差所以才會是說就流程而言其實醫院人的自己上傳這件事情對於整個流程裡面的幫助並不大而且可科則性也有問題所以我們才會是說有點疑慮以上"},{"start":28782.156,"end":28789.14,"text":"各位再看一下第12條的第1項 中央主管機關應將預歷醫療決定註記於全民健康保險憑證這個法條是第1條的開通名是這樣那至於怎麼樣讓這個簽署預歷醫療決定書的的意願人可以更"},{"start":28806.927,"end":28829.394,"text":"更簡便的方式 這是行政機關要去思考的問題 應該是這樣然後這個簽署AD最多是希望善終 只是這個又有牽涉到因為第一項 是不是有牽涉到變更的部分 沒有"},{"start":28842.455,"end":28862.532,"text":"這要先保留好不好來接下來處理第十對不起處理第十四條請行之機關表示意見"},{"start":28865.189,"end":28879.265,"text":"14條的部分的話就王育民委員或者是劉建國委員在今天的一個修正就是修正裡面我們對於就是說在"},{"start":28882.348,"end":28898.235,"text":"而新增的部分就是醫療機構或醫師對前開診斷會照會員不得無故拒絕這個因為實際上面在臨床實務上面已經在運作了所以我們會覺得是說這一段似乎是"},{"start":28899.295,"end":28920.396,"text":"建議維持我們母法的條文然後再來的部分的話其實是最後一項做的修正是說醫療機構或醫師依本條規定終止測除或不施行維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養不負形式"},{"start":28921.517,"end":28949.478,"text":"行政或民事責任就民眾權益的保障的部分的話我們自己覺得是說原本條文是除有故意或重大過失且違反病人預例醫療決定者外的這部分寫的這樣子範圍比較明確或許在醫病雙方的保障裡面特別是對病人權益的維護裡面我們覺得原本的條文會不會是比較好的所以是建請是說在"},{"start":28951.779,"end":28971.787,"text":"這個條文的部分是不是可以維持原條文以上然後對於針對就是說還有一個不好意思就是說在針對就是永久植物人狀態或永久最低意識狀態的這部分的話我們部裡面這邊就尊重專家的跟委員會的這邊的討論"},{"start":28973.367,"end":28984.219,"text":"只要有兩位醫師做一些確診其實在這樣子的一個程序下面的話對於永久最低意識狀態應該是在執行上面沒有什麼困擾 以上好 委員有其他意見嗎"},{"start":28992.355,"end":29009.952,"text":"沒有沒有這個行政機關是希望建立流營的條文對不對然後修正一個在第一項的第三款的部分有一個叫永久植物人狀況或永久最低意識狀態"},{"start":29011.607,"end":29036.814,"text":"這個我修正都也有這個但是上面這個還是原有的第一項裡面第一項裡面原條是因為我們要配合第八條剛剛這個第二項修正就是全部或一部你還是要改要改所以在第一項裡面我們才會會改為或臨床醫療過程中書面明示之意識表示終止"},{"start":29042.399,"end":29061.352,"text":"簡單說第一個先處理這個全部或一部第二個就是為了讓病人當下醫院迅速獲得這個尊重修正第一項增列臨床醫療過程中宿命意識的表示亦得作為終止、撤除或不施作LOST或ANH的依據"},{"start":29062.973,"end":29075.627,"text":"我想這個應該更有強化的作用然後第一項的第三款就誠如市長所講的沒有意見然後再來第三款"},{"start":29077.481,"end":29085.887,"text":"對 第三項 對不起就前項各款應由兩位具相關專科醫師資格之醫師確診並經緩和醫療團隊這個照會確認醫療機構或醫師對於前開診斷與照會義務不得無故拒絕這個 增加這個也應該是更 法律更明確"},{"start":29109.27,"end":29110.397,"text":"这个有什么问题吗"},{"start":29115.44,"end":29142.288,"text":"我們這邊的意見會尊重委員會的討論只是說在跟醫界這邊在做一些溝通的時候大家都專家們是覺得說這是在食物上面其實就是這樣啦增不增新增條文其實好像對於實際上面的效益這邊好像並沒有很明確的有注意所以就是說增不增加這件事情在食物界這邊覺得好像關係不大以上"},{"start":29146.621,"end":29163.338,"text":"好啦 你要這麼講我都沒有意見啦好啦 集齊啦 集齊啦好啦 我也集齊你那個第三款啦好啦 那火熊齊齊 好那我們就照修正 同意後通過然後還有一個最後一項最後一項民視那個是不是對好"},{"start":29164.475,"end":29180.93,"text":"原有就是原條文是原條文是這個對不起醫療機構一是依本條規定終止廁所或不施行維持生命治療或人工餵養及流體餵養之全部或一部"},{"start":29182.651,"end":29204.461,"text":"對 然後 負形式以這個行政責任因此所生之損害 除有故意或重大過失 且違反病人預理醫療決定者不負賠償責任我們就把他改為醫療機構或醫師醫本條例終止 撤除或不施行 維持生命自體或人工營養及流體餵養不負形式行政與民事責任這樣夠了嗎"},{"start":29213.16,"end":29231.005,"text":"我們會覺得是說我先講一下立法理由這部分主要是因為在這個執行過程中產生的傷害如果是故意或重大過失其實必須負賠償責任這件事情對病人權益的保障可能比較好以上的補充"},{"start":29232.85,"end":29253.328,"text":"因為委員兩個不管是哪個委員的版本其實是直接補負的這邊的話如果是有故意故意或重大過失這一邊的話其實這個就直接是做所謂的就沒有相關的責任我可以把這一段也給我們那個法規委員這邊做一個補充好 請說明"},{"start":29255.291,"end":29272.559,"text":"市長講的看起來應該對啊因為就是發生事情的時候如果有故意或重大過失的時候家屬還可以追究啊但是現在如果修正條文看起來都是都不用了反正他就是依照醫療遺囑去執行統統不用負責任了"},{"start":29273.579,"end":29286.107,"text":"那這個難保其中有孤幼重大過世這種情形嗎有這種情形的時候應該容許家屬去進行他的權力救濟所以看起來原條文是比較優勒因為我們之前的原條文是特別去提到"},{"start":29297.253,"end":29316.881,"text":"去提到這個故意跟故意跟不是故意的情況所以就用這個用這個文字來把它要做這樣的一個一個確認但是話又講回來我們現在改為就直接改為叫做醫療機構一是因本條規定中止醫本條他遵守這個病毒法的法條"},{"start":29318.482,"end":29338.193,"text":"相關的規定去終止跟撤除或不施行維持生命的治療或人工的營養及流體餵養不戶型施行證與民事責任這個也理所當然了我醫師跟醫療機構是遵守這部法律在執行你說原有的條文是在講說"},{"start":29343.208,"end":29361.216,"text":"你看我再讀一次文字再讀一下會比較清楚醫療機構或醫師依本條規定終止撤除或不施行維持生命治療或人工餵養直流體餵養能夠營養直流體餵養全部或一部"},{"start":29362.878,"end":29387.037,"text":"不負刑事或行政責任這是跟我們簡化的那個文字就差一個差一個名字嗎好差一個名字好因此所生他因為因為這邊才這邊是分號嗎好因為這樣因此所生之損害除有故意除有故意或重大過失的且違反病人遇力醫療決定者外不負賠償責任"},{"start":29399.704,"end":29415.731,"text":"剛剛委員 昭緯這邊有特別講到原條文其實是針對民事這一塊的話就是如果有故意或重大過失且違反病人醫療決定者的話其實家屬這邊還是有求償的一個機制存在"},{"start":29416.371,"end":29438.021,"text":"然後如果照目前就是修正版本的條文的話直接就是連民事責任直接違比掉的話我們會覺得相對而言在病毒法這邊本來就強調的是病方跟醫方相對權利都要受到保障所以我們才會覺得是說建議是不是能夠在最後一項的部分的話是維持原條文以上好委員有沒有其他意見"},{"start":29447.09,"end":29447.981,"text":"我这树是在秋月里"},{"start":29460.843,"end":29485.718,"text":"的確因為不曉得之前實務上有碰過相關因為這個樣子的造成的困擾或執行上的困難其實寫這些基本上就是希望能夠讓大家知道當我們在做生命自主選擇的時候如果出現往後一些處理起來讓大家覺得是不是醫療機構沒有盡到該有的醫療責任"},{"start":29489.66,"end":29508.334,"text":"是因為是執行當中的落差造成的那這的確是有一些難以確認的地方那如果是依照現在在看的是5月18號的會議裡面的現行條文跟修正條文"},{"start":29509.255,"end":29523.71,"text":"那陷阱條文的確是最後寫違反病人預立醫療決定者外不負賠償責任就是說有違反那這違反到時候是誰要來決定它是否違反"},{"start":29525.732,"end":29540.325,"text":"醫療機構當然不會說他自己違反會去希望能夠說醫療機構有違反的應該是他的家人通常這個病人已經離開了所以到底怎麼來判定是我違反"},{"start":29540.985,"end":29570.445,"text":"因為當初他如果已經是確立好他要怎麼做我們就是依照醫療機構就是依照這個醫院者他所制定的這些期待依照他的要求做了該有的醫療處置基本上應該是沒有違反的問題所以如果會違反可能就是家屬造成的那如果他家屬認為說是醫療機構違反了他當然有權利提出訴訟或要求"},{"start":29571.125,"end":29588.218,"text":"那如果進入到訴訟的話那怎麼去判定是我違反這個當然是另外要處理的問題那我們這樣定的話當然對於醫院來講或者是對於這個家屬來講他比較能夠保護他的權益"},{"start":29588.778,"end":29614.386,"text":"可是如果我們的商會法其實是希望能夠讓這個意願者能夠得到他當初所制定的意願的話基本上真的是沒有這個困難才對所以我覺得如果修正成為新的部分就是醫療機構或醫師依照本條規定中止撤告等等不負形式"},{"start":29615.686,"end":29640.979,"text":"行政及民事責任的話這是相對是更具體的只是不要說他是違反責任就要去被糾纏這樣子所以我會比較贊成說是不是再確認一下如果用新的版本可以涵掛到原來而且又可以免除這個違反本身帶來的困擾的話新版本似乎是比較能夠具體的呈現這個當初"},{"start":29642.882,"end":29646.015,"text":"病毒法這一條這個追捕法的精神以上"},{"start":29647.575,"end":29673.424,"text":"我這樣說明應該更清楚比我說明更清楚其實應該是要明確就是說當醫師醫療機構依照病史法在執行的時候其實他不會有故意的事情發生對不對如果真的有故意事情發生坦白講也不是在這個法條上可以處理的那是直接是刑案的部分那當然還有一個叫做重大的過失這個原有去訂這個條文的內容"},{"start":29675.438,"end":29702.458,"text":"他可能是他當然還是屬於一個醫療的行為但是這種醫療行為是我們用特別法來規範其實他的前提是講說醫療機構或醫師依本條規定終止本條規定終止廁所或不施行維持生命治療或人工養及流體人工養及流體養不負行政及民事責任其實這句話這個法律定義是沒問題的"},{"start":29706.257,"end":29714.453,"text":"但是你如果要focus在原有的法條你就會套用在他可能會有重大過失他可能會有過失他可能會故意"},{"start":29719.215,"end":29736.393,"text":"基本上面我們部裡面是提醒啦然後所以是說委員會的討論我們會尊重啦關於這一點因為其實病毒法最重要的其實就會希望是說能夠促進醫病關係和諧然後確保病人的善中的權益這是它的立法的主旨啦"},{"start":29736.973,"end":29757.528,"text":"所以對這個程序問題的部分的話我們只是解釋一下當初的立法的一個宗旨然後那經過委員的討論部裡面這邊我們其實是尊重委員會的最後的決定以上好 謝謝那各位我們是不是依照這個修正動議來通過可以了好 謝謝來繼續處理第第16條之一"},{"start":29767.33,"end":29769.814,"text":"16條之一 請行政機關表示意見"},{"start":29777.934,"end":29799.487,"text":"16條之一的話是因為目前的不管是王育民委員或者是劉建國委員的版本裡面主要是因為我們目前所有的關於相關的預算跟經費其實都是滾動式的修正所以是說到目前為止有一些政策的演繹我們都覺得是說都還在滾動式的修正當中"},{"start":29799.907,"end":29817.656,"text":"比如說健保署我們7月的時候把住院納入ACP納入然後今年的5月1號又擴大了適用的對象所以在推動的過程當中我們預計到長照3.0的時候其實也會有育立醫療決定諮商的一個推廣獎勵"},{"start":29818.797,"end":29839.982,"text":"所以也因為這樣子所以我們才覺得是說對於16條之一這樣子寫進來的話我覺得在我們目前的執行上面會有困難所以建議是不是不予修正以上好新政機關針對新政的部分建立不予修正來請委員表示意見"},{"start":29860.643,"end":29861.149,"text":"就成立了"},{"start":29882.884,"end":29897.946,"text":"主席 這是根據需要來新增就是有關健保給付的部分因為原本立法的時候是沒有涉及到這個費用是否有健保給付"},{"start":29898.727,"end":29927.217,"text":"不過現在實務上在執行已經有納為健保給付依照規定的話是可以有一個這樣的執行模式的話所以看起來16條之一目前新增的必要性相對是像在沒有在5月1號之前那麼廣泛執行的這個狀況所以我會贊成剛剛市長的報告內容認為可以不需要在這個時候增加16條之一以上"},{"start":29929.844,"end":29934.799,"text":"好 謝謝 那我想會去還有其他委員意見嗎"},{"start":29936.089,"end":29961.135,"text":"沒有好就簡單補充這個修法的這樣的一個目的當然這個第十條第十六條之一是來對照十條就是說應該醫療照護諮商的時候這個確診或是照護整個程序會用幾戶上需這個政策還有研議這個預算的一個規劃他特別要去釐清是否屬於這個"},{"start":29963.235,"end":29976.421,"text":"這個醫療行為 健保署幾乎坦白講那就是明確的醫療行為 應該是這麼說那中央局管機關對這個理由的一個意見 我想"},{"start":29982.408,"end":29996.31,"text":"應該用什麼角度講其實在5月要擴充到180萬的時候這個其實是要肯定這個衛福部肯定相關的單位願意積極來做這件事情那我們怎樣"},{"start":29997.028,"end":30011.436,"text":"就是還是要增加那個完成的簽署AD的量能才是重中之重那當然也要兼顧到品質我們一直還是期待他這個六年來的一趴是不是隔年就可以變成"},{"start":30013.257,"end":30031.506,"text":"增加到N%以上這是我們的一個期待所以才會想說用第16條之一來針對這個預算的一個相關的一些支應由從陽主管機關的來編列這個相關預算來支應不管是在哪一個部分 不過剛剛第9條我們在討論的時候"},{"start":30032.847,"end":30045.127,"text":"我們當然是針對健保該給予去處理然後這個健康的醫院人他就屬於這個自行來給予嘛這自負來這些智商的會用"},{"start":30049.082,"end":30066.789,"text":"沒關係好不好 我們這條就先行保留了 因為這搭配第9條到時候可以再一併來做一些討論 請黃委員照這樣說明因為在第9條裡面如果是用雙軌的精神的話 一部分是健保"},{"start":30066.969,"end":30095.032,"text":"那健保是如果在16條之一有新增的話是在第二款那如果說我們針對於在第9條裡面雙軌裡面不是用健保支付的這些需求那是用什麼樣的方式來編列預算包括用公務預算或是用智慧的方式那導致在第16條之一的第一項似乎是有他的需要存在"},{"start":30095.993,"end":30107.772,"text":"所以就是剛剛聽趙偉這樣說明以後我覺得第四六條之一的這個第一項的確它是有需要存在的假設它將來需要供入預算的話以上"},{"start":30109.014,"end":30135.551,"text":"對 因為如果說我們完成了這個地球修正之後也要看執行的狀態到時候當然也有執行面的問題還是剛剛有特別討論在協商的時候討論到底辦法怎麼去去明定跟MUA來做一個契合這個還是最後的一個也是要有一個期程來看整個執行的情況所以這個可能就是一個事先的"},{"start":30136.38,"end":30142.649,"text":"一個未雨綢繆的一個規劃我覺得也不是一件壞事好不好 我們先保留好 接下來處理第17條"},{"start":30147.853,"end":30174.898,"text":"再請機關做說明17條那時候保留的理由是因為14條對然後然後所以那時候是因為14條保留的關係所以17條保留然後現在14條其實已經有決議了所以所以我們這邊沒有其他的意見以上好所以17條各位有沒有其他意見沒有了那我們17條就通過照對不起照這個修正原修正條文來通過好謝謝"},{"start":30180.08,"end":30197.327,"text":"好 我們第二輪結束 那我們現在就要不要休息一下看網友好像 希望休息一下好 好 謝謝 不好意思 好 休息五分鐘啦 好不好好 感謝 謝謝"},{"start":30508.695,"end":30508.814,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":30786.299,"end":30786.9,"text":"我等一下還你"},{"start":30979.103,"end":30979.204,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":31047.068,"end":31050.599,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":31094.88,"end":31104.431,"text":"對,我們剛剛自己那部,我覺得很沒問題啦。對啊,你不急,我們很急啊。你們很急,你們找我自己寫的。找我的小事就是我們的大事啊。對啊,沒有啦,不要罵人啊。對啊。要不要聽歌啊?要不要聽歌啊?要不要聽歌啊?"},{"start":31146.108,"end":31152.773,"text":"謝謝 委員會這邊宣告本次的會議我們就延到整個處理完成"},{"start":31156.24,"end":31175.399,"text":"不會了OK你不用擔心好謝謝請坐請坐你沒有坐我們沒辦法進行您最有愛心的好我們現在進行第三輪謝謝那保留條文是第八條"},{"start":31177.383,"end":31200.677,"text":"第8條這個部分我再簡單 容我再做一個說明第8條這個完全具行為能力跟具行為能力基本上這個只是更精準的一個用詞譴制各位如果還有意見我們還是一樣可以保留還是說要照這個我們所提的這個修正動議的文字各位表示意見"},{"start":31211.071,"end":31233.23,"text":"這邊補充說明因為當時在立法之初是希望成年且具有行為能力者才能擔任這個醫療委任代理人但醫院只要具有完全行為能力即可這是考量到未成年的已婚者那具完全行為能力這個意思是沿用安寧條例101年的版本用語"},{"start":31234.431,"end":31248.117,"text":"然後因此在本法立法當時的時候是有關於這個議院人及醫療委任帶領的行為能力用於就有所不同所以原始的第八條之一是具完全行為能力之人"},{"start":31248.996,"end":31274.91,"text":"得為預理醫療決定那10至1則是醫院人指定醫療委任代理人應以20歲以上且具行為能力之人為限那108年修法時第10條之1改成現在的醫院人指定醫療委任代理人應以成年且具行為能力之人為限但到"},{"start":31278.695,"end":31306.981,"text":"這個112年的時候民華修法之後好像沒有太大意義所以如果因為這個現行的民華非成年就是18歲以下不可能不可能為具行為能力之人所以我們在這邊建立說大家如果很在意這個行為能力的用語以及一致性的問題那就將這個第8條之一還有第9條之一之後的見證人以及10至1的這個醫療文件代理人通通改為具行為能力之人"},{"start":31308.897,"end":31311.579,"text":"這樣是不是就可以解決大家的擔憂跟疑慮可以嗎"},{"start":31323.038,"end":31344.6,"text":"主席我是贊成那個主席剛剛的說明就是包括說如果用現有的比較能夠完整把不管是民法或者是現在條例裡面具行為能力之人已經可以涵掛到我們希望讓這一部法律在執行的時候"},{"start":31345.838,"end":31369.313,"text":"這個主體很明確 而且也事實上是有涵掛到目前我們要規範的這個對象的話 我是覺得用具有神力 具有行為能力的人已經足夠以上 那另外那個醫院已經處理好 我們就就不用再處理了 以上好 謝謝王委員 這樣可以啦行政機關沒有意見啦好 沒意見"},{"start":31369.912,"end":31397.535,"text":"好 那第8條我們就照這個原流的修正條文來通過謝謝 繼續處理第9條 保留條文第9條第9條部分我可不可以直接建議保留 好對 因為我們還要再著修一些文字 好啦 OK好 給各位再一些時間好 如果網友沒意見就保留 OK"},{"start":31398.618,"end":31420.909,"text":"那繼續處理保留條文第12條好 第8條再重新宣告 第8條是依照劉建國委員等 對吧還有王允美委員所提的這個修正條文通過 好 謝謝提案通過 對"},{"start":31428.993,"end":31458.365,"text":"來現在是第12條第12條行事機關要不要再表示意見我們是建議是說有意願上傳這一段是建議不要新修正有意願人上傳這一段其他的部分我們沒有意見"},{"start":31460.768,"end":31482.453,"text":"就是不新增意願能上傳不新增意願能上傳 對 其他沒意見其他沒意見還是建議保留 這樣比較快OK 好"},{"start":31486.276,"end":31497.241,"text":"來第12條保留最後一條是16條之一就一起保留因為第9條保留嘛OK好那16條一樣一併保留就連動到第9條好謝謝"},{"start":31515.944,"end":31536.475,"text":"好 現在做以下決議 病人自主權利法 部分條文修正草案等5案審查完略那病案凝聚審查報告提報院會討論 那院會討論討論本案時 由劉昭祺委員見過補充說明那請問本案是我須交由黨人協商要啦 OK 好 謝謝 那要交由黨人協商好"},{"start":31539.386,"end":31553.116,"text":"那本法案如有原理條次法制用於調整授權議事人員調整相關立法說明授權行政機關提供那本的會議到此結束現在散會好謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":31576.514,"end":31576.683,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"163562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3feaef107a98f0c925779b055d436aaedc7ec63be39246372d759ce15701171e306605202daef2345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:11:00 - 09:12:42","影片長度":"00:01:42","會議時間":"2025-08-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員徐巧芯等23人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一條文修正草案」等54案。（詳見議事日程）\n二、繼續審查(一)委員林俊憲等23人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委員馬文君等19人、(七)委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」、(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十二條條文修正草案」案及審查(十一)委員廖先翔等16人擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查(一)委員林俊憲等22人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」、(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案及審查(四)委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議進行逐條審查】\n【8月20日及21日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-08-20","start_time":"2025-08-20T09:11:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-20T09:12:42+08:00","duration":102,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第20次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":20,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-20"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0897187500000003,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.44534375,"end":73.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.33159375000001,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":100.70721875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.373,"end":18.734,"text":"主席 府會同仁本期今天提出道路交通管理處處罰條例第21條的修正草案主要是因為依據交通部的統計在2023年因少年無照駕駛所導致的死傷人數高達6485人"},{"start":21.417,"end":46.852,"text":"那麼其中死亡的人數佔了188人佔該年度少年交通死亡總乘數的這個七成那這顯示無照駕駛也是少年用路安全很重要很嚴重的一個致命風險之一那另外呢在這五年來65歲以上的高齡者的無照駕駛情形也有逐年增加那麼2023年呢因為無照駕駛所造成的交通死亡比例已經達到了15%"},{"start":48.513,"end":73.408,"text":"可見無照駕駛的風險不是只有限於少年群體那麼高齡者同樣是屬於高風險族群那麼現行的這個規定對於無照駕駛的處罰金額是六千元到兩萬四千的這個額度那似乎沒有辦法發揮這個嚇阻的效果因此本席建議將罰還金額提高到九千"},{"start":74.409,"end":99.858,"text":"至三萬六的這個區間並同步調整累犯罰則以及汽車所有人連帶責任之處罰藉此能夠提升全面的制度效能那麼這個修法的核心目標就是要有效遏止無照駕駛的行為減少重大交通事故的發生保護全體用路人的生命安全那麼以上的說明敬請大家支持 謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}