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鄭副院長以及卓院長各位先進我們有請卓院長你剛才喝水可以嗎好 休息一下 請卓院長請備詢我們是不是請副院長一起好不好鄭副院長也請備詢謝謝代委員好 院長辛苦了不會"},{"start":34.912,"end":55.865,"text":"這個G2030一直來立法院這裡辛苦但是我們希望我們希望來這裡能夠講一點真話啦要對國會公開啦現在現在外界這個今天的報告啊這個院長事先雷聲大雨點小說今天他就來然後林運把很多資料給我們結果"},{"start":57.321,"end":77.607,"text":"編幾部沒什麼資料 作文做很多結論就是繼續談 爭取比較好的關稅這就是現在真心話可以說的部分還是黑箱 還是蓋牌我要請問就一件具體的事情"},{"start":78.527,"end":98.452,"text":"我們大家都朝野不分朝野全民全台灣人民都期待能夠20加N所謂的疊加第一個它不是地板希望它變成天花板然後這20能夠降回15這是老百姓普遍的希望我們要的不多跟日本一樣就好了"},{"start":99.488,"end":123.843,"text":"日本韓國都是15%我們要的不多就這樣子台灣老百姓非常老實非常誠實也非常實際這樣的一個努力現在看起來大概就有兩個方向了第一個就是對美要增加投資第二個開放國內市場我就請問曾副院長這個跟美國有沒有談到"},{"start":125.255,"end":150.269,"text":"請你即時回答報告委員 的確美方會期待各國市場開放那我們也會在糧食安全國民健康的原則底下來跟他討論非關稅貿易障礙的確我們台美談判到最後沒有達成協議有部分就是連動供應鏈合作跟232調查的項目我必須講那麼細節 我因為我時間很限我就問你一個具體的事情"},{"start":151.61,"end":156.196,"text":"是不是有可能美國是不是要求我們全面開放零關稅 有沒有"},{"start":157.222,"end":186.075,"text":"美國有沒有要求我們大不大另外一件事有沒有要求美方自然有他的期待他期待零關稅對不對期待零關稅期待市場開放市場全面開放因為各國談判的情況會連動因為談判是一個階段發展的當有的國家用零關稅提出來一個條件的時候美方他也會提出你怎麼回答我的問題啊 政府院長"},{"start":186.755,"end":211.098,"text":"請問副院長美國有沒有提出來要求零關稅美國提出市場開放的期待市場開放我必須這樣跟委員回答我方也會來針對有關在糧食安全國民健康的原則底上來跟美方協商但是因為委員如果我跟您講得太具體"},{"start":211.778,"end":229.16,"text":"如果我在這邊涉及什麼樣的敏感項目跟您報告之後屆時如果影響談判的結果這是我們比較不希望看到的所以請委員諒解跟國會諒解你來這裡要講實話就是你沒有答案沒關係但是我們要了解美方有沒有提出來"},{"start":230.942,"end":249.899,"text":"期待市場開放的確他會期待各國市場開放那這就是看雙方怎麼談判的確最後我們還有一部分要談的就是供應鏈合作投資供應鏈合作跟232條款相關的優惠方案但是這裡面"},{"start":250.82,"end":273.472,"text":"也涉及對等關稅最終的稅率是一起來談的因為這個相關的報導未經向經貿辦查證未經向部會查證那我跟委員可以報告是說現在還在談判中相關的數字都還在這個"},{"start":275.073,"end":293.55,"text":"談判中並不是媒體所報導的相關的數字跟我們的談判情況有所出入我們的GDP一年8000億美金日本4點多兆美金 它是我們的5倍日本承諾投資5500億"},{"start":296.513,"end":310.25,"text":"拿到15%天花板價我們用了不多根就一樣就好了按照GDP比例我們再除以5%所以以我們來講投資1100億就夠了1100億Count off這應該1100億就是最多at most我們1500億"},{"start":320.885,"end":329.036,"text":"兩千五百億就給我講完了啦好 這個這個副委員 這種算法我們都算過早上也有其他委員建議那我們會一併再一次的提出這樣合理的計算方式"},{"start":329.824,"end":357.5,"text":"我想有關於我方有力的論述我們都會來交叉充分的運用但是也請委員我們如果委員有需要我們也可以有時間詳細再跟委員報告各國他們最終公布的條件他不同的這個性質譬如說投資的數字有不同的性質我要請教院長這個副院長比較沒有角色我要去問現在來看的話賴總統前幾天講話"},{"start":359.785,"end":376.202,"text":"他講四個重點 其中兩個重點第一個重點就是啟動立院行政新的互動模式第二個重點啟動內閣改組我要不要請邱部長上來一下衛福部的邱部長邱部長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":378.533,"end":402.62,"text":"媒體說成這樣 壞聲壞音這麼大聲 你說你要求邱部長寫辭職信 邱部長拒絕有些事情來 邱部長給你先說你有沒有跟院長見面 前幾天有沒有 有有 好是不是院長要你寫辭職信 你不要"},{"start":406.16,"end":421.827,"text":"我跟委員報告我跟邱部長見面的時候我第一個問他說你對未來的工作有沒有什麼樣長遠的計畫他跟我講了很多他過去所做的跟未來所做的這是我們剛見面的過程開始結束的時候"},{"start":426.205,"end":453.641,"text":"報告委員 我跟邱部長見面來來來 給邱部長講話一句話我一句話就好了我跟邱部長見面 只有我們兩個人沒有任何媒體在現場邱部長你講個話好不好有沒有要你寫辭職信 有沒有報告委員 沒有 我們都是談工作計畫沒有叫你寫辭職信工作跟健康台灣推動的一個狀況因為從這個事情看我就覺得原來的黃雁南原來的郭志輝兩位部長"},{"start":455.322,"end":469.271,"text":"他們的請辭大概也都是被請辭啦換言之就是完全是由上而下 我要你走靠靠捏 讓你自己說 啊 健康因素啦生涯規劃啦 讓你靠靠捏 這樣"},{"start":472.097,"end":494.803,"text":"黃部長因為戒掉期間8月底所以他回歸到中研院去那郭部長更有其他他個人的因素邱部長在立法院國會典禱要講實話喔確實沒有要你去辭職信喔確實沒有那你可以請回這是內閣改組你請回"},{"start":498.492,"end":526.373,"text":"內閣改組的部分我就講第二個賴總統說要啟動新的立院行政互動模式你在這裡上個禮拜接受我的事情你也這樣講啊新的模式結果新的模式是什麼馬上我們看到115年的中正午總預算我們三讀通過了軍人加薪我們三讀通過了錦銷條例一通不編了"},{"start":527.472,"end":555.662,"text":"你通不偏啦 好啦 你說因為市縣賴總統要替你講話這個啊 就是胡說八道看囉114年今年度中央政府總預算請問你有沒有在執行請問你 有沒有在執行114年今年度目前正在執行中央政府總預算請問你有沒有提市縣114年中央政府總預算對 市縣 有沒有我們提出過復議"},{"start":556.715,"end":576.035,"text":"你五月提復印 八月提釋憲八月憲法法庭受理答案還沒有出來換言之只要大家都知道這是一個ABC只要經過總統公告的法律案三讀通過了你要實現可以 你寫實施"},{"start":578.037,"end":596.253,"text":"換言之 你今天115年的中央政府總預算你說軍人加薪因為失憲 請下條例因為失憲不編預算 這個叫違法亂計 違法違憲兩個回答第一個 委員您是"},{"start":597.247,"end":619.697,"text":"台政的專家在立法院多年立法院通過一個法案要行政院增加預算是否合憲值得考慮第二個我們這次的釋憲案我們並同提出暫時處分我們希望在暫時處分釋憲確定之後如果違憲我們就不做違憲機關的行為如果合憲我們就必須要補正我們就補正"},{"start":621.684,"end":634.357,"text":"不是這樣子啦我剛跟你講了半天你都沒有認真聽114年的預算正在執行你也是提示線我們沒有暫時處分你也在執行啊"},{"start":635.185,"end":660.271,"text":"我們沒有暫時處分你也在執行啊那現在這一次我們對於民進黨預算我們都了解啊我們提了暫時處分你不要去這樣子這個大家都了解我們提了暫時處分就是你只要總統公告了就生效總統公告生效了對不對沒有生效的我們也不能復議 不能釋憲啊不是 你可以生效的你也沒有提復議你沒有提復議啊對不對 你就直接挑起釋憲大會委員長你希望我不提復議啊"},{"start":660.871,"end":675.896,"text":"不能用這樣的理由不是 我們有提暫時處分這一次有提暫時處分院長 老實講我對你上禮拜的答案我是滿意的但是今天的答案我是不滿意的我覺得你還是擺開一副"},{"start":676.636,"end":695.525,"text":"要跟立法院吵架的架勢嘛立法院用一個法案來增加行政機關的大幅支出這樣對嗎我們要求依法編列那就會重演原來114年禁法補償你不編退回 我們會退回"},{"start":696.585,"end":722.298,"text":"我就強力主張要退回因為我們同過的所以委員還是認為立法院可以用一個法案或一個預算案來大幅增加行政機關的這個預算的編列大幅支出那我就告訴你這個沒有違反憲法跟預算法嗎對 我就告訴你民進黨的先進門最早提出來那個叫許信良他當立委的時候提出來就提出來"},{"start":729.65,"end":753.056,"text":"要給老人津貼一個人三千一樣啊 跟這個一模一樣啊當時行政院如果同意有徵詢過有徵詢過行政院如果同意就沒有違憲問題如果沒有徵詢過而且沒有指出資金的來源那就有違憲之餘啊那種案子太多了啦立法委員 民進黨的委員提案然後也增加預算這個太多太多了我就不要再講了齁我再請那個政府院長"},{"start":754.798,"end":757.121,"text":"政府院長跟楊總裁政府院長跟楊總裁時間暫停一下"},{"start":777.9,"end":788.459,"text":"現在講20%PLUS N啦其實如果把匯率加進來就是30幾%啦請問總裁4月到現在台幣升值多少"},{"start":791.17,"end":812.656,"text":"我們從今年開始來算我們是7.184月2號開始那這個我大概要再算一下我告訴你最少是8我就是7點4點4月2號為什麼因為那時候川普講的這個關稅的問題從那時候開始算起其實那時候請問一下外匯存底多少"},{"start":813.716,"end":818.878,"text":"我们外存底大概是5800亿5800亿每一天的会市大概15亿到20亿天哪"},{"start":828.058,"end":856.452,"text":"VS5800億老實講你要調節太容易了你要維持在哪裡就哪裡了但是因為你怕人家說你是匯率超重所以呢但是那個時候突然突然一張一下子一塊錢我想委員講的也沒有錯不過我有一個原則我們必須要把握住就是說"},{"start":857.432,"end":869.581,"text":"你升職或是貶職的時候 你的調節委員的意思就是說 你都可以來調節但是我說調節要有節制調節要有節制所以是貶職調節或是升職調節都要有節制現在證明了你當初讓他大幅升職 那是配合關稅談判"},{"start":885.232,"end":910.818,"text":"政府院長跟主委長沒有喔我跟委員報告 絕對沒有報告委員 央行不在我們台美經貿工作小組也不在我談判小組我的談判沒有涉及匯率這個要跟委員同時的報告絕對沒有廠商們 大家前面這麼多的委員在提到的你不要講話 我講喔因為我事情不多了"},{"start":913.639,"end":931.603,"text":"最大的擔心是匯率因為匯率不是只有對美國 對全世界都是我買到歐洲也是 買到東南亞也是大家都非常的清楚匯率才是重要匯率加12% 所以我們等32%所以事實上最近新台幣"},{"start":950.925,"end":950.945,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":181,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（15時19分）謝謝主席江副院長，以及卓院長、各位先進。有請卓院長。你剛才喝水，可以了嗎？休息一下，好，請卓院長。"],["主席：卓院長，請備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：我們是不是請副院長一起，好不好？"],["主席：鄭副院長也請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝賴委員。"],["賴委員士葆：院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：你接二連三一直來立法院，很辛苦！但是我們希望來這裡能夠講一點真話，要對國會公開啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：一定。"],["賴委員士葆：針對今天的報告，院長是先雷聲大雨點小，說今天來就去把很多資料給我們，結果翻了半天，也沒有什麼資料，作文做很多。結論就是繼續談，爭取比較好的關稅，我們沒有看到……"],["卓院長榮泰：向委員報告，這就是現在真心話可以說的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：鄭副院長對國會還是黑箱、還是蓋牌，我就請問一件很具體的事情，大家不分朝野，全臺灣人民都期待能夠「20%+N」，所謂的疊加。第一個，它不是地板，希望它變成天花板，這20%能夠降為15%，這是老百姓普遍的希望，我們要的不多，跟日本一樣就好了！日本、韓國都是15%，我們要的不多就這樣子。臺灣老百姓非常老實、非常誠實，也非常實際，這樣的努力現在看起來大概就有兩個方向：第一個是對美要增加投資；第二個是開放國內市場。我請問鄭副院長，跟美國有沒有談到這部分？請你據實回答。"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，的確美方會期待各國市場開放，我們也會在糧食安全、國民健康的原則底下，跟他們討論關稅、非關稅貿易障礙。的確臺美談判到最後沒有達成協議，有部分就是連動供應鏈合作跟232調查的項目，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：不必講那麼多細節，我時間有限，就問你一個具體的事情，美國是不是要求我們全面開放零關稅，有沒有？美國有沒有要求？我們答不答應是另外一件事，有沒有要求？"],["鄭副院長麗君：美方自然有他們的期待……"],["賴委員士葆：他們期待零關稅，對不對？"],["鄭副院長麗君：美方的確期待……"],["賴委員士葆：期待零關稅？"],["鄭副院長麗君：期待市場開放……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有全面。"],["賴委員士葆：全面開放？"],["鄭副院長麗君：是市場開放，我這樣講比較精確。"],["賴委員士葆：市場全面開放。"],["鄭副院長麗君：因為各國談判的情況會連動，談判是一個階段發展的，當有國家用零關稅提出一個條件的時候，美方他們也會持續的提出。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你，你一直沒有回答我問題。鄭副院長，美國有沒有提出要求零關稅？"],["鄭副院長麗君：美國提出市場開放的期待……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有提出零關稅？"],["鄭副院長麗君：是市場開放，我必須這樣跟委員回答，我方也會來針對有關在糧食安全、國民健康的原則底下來跟美方協商……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你在跟我講農業囉！我沒有在問你農業，是在問你美方有沒有要求零關稅？"],["鄭副院長麗君：如果我跟您講得太具體，我在這邊涉及什麼樣的敏感項目跟您報告之後……"],["賴委員士葆：這沒有敏感項目啊！"],["鄭副院長麗君：屆時如果影響談判的結果，這是我們比較不希望看到的。請委員諒解，也請國會諒解。"],["賴委員士葆：你來這裡要講實話，你沒有答案，沒關係，但是我們要了解美方有沒有提出全面開放這個條件？"],["鄭副院長麗君：是期待市場開放，的確他會期待各國市場開放……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有全面開放？"],["鄭副院長麗君：這就是看雙方怎麼談判。"],["賴委員士葆：好，有沒有要求我們要增加投資？"],["鄭副院長麗君：的確，最後我們還有一部分要談的就是供應鏈合作……"],["賴委員士葆：增加投資。"],["鄭副院長麗君：供應鏈合作跟232條款相關的優惠方案，但是這裡也涉及對等關稅最終的稅率，是一起來談的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以媒體講4年投資2,500億，你們還否認，你們說不對啊！不對是比較多，還是比較少？"],["鄭副院長麗君：因為這個相關的報導未經向經貿辦及相關部會查證，我跟委員可以報告是現在還在談判中，相關的數字都還在談判中，並不是媒體所報導相關的……"],["賴委員士葆：2,500億，有出現過吧？"],["鄭副院長麗君：相關的數字跟我們的談判情況有所出入。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講老百姓的期待是什麼？我們的GDP是一年8,000億美金，日本四點多兆美金，他們是我們的5倍，日本承諾投資5,500億，拿到15%的天花板價，我們要的不多，跟日本一樣就好了。按照GDP比例，我們可以除以五，所以以我們來講，投資1,100億就夠了，counter offer就應該1,100億，我們最多、at most就是投資1,500億，2,500億就被人家當「盤子」了。好，副院長請回座。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們都算過這種算法，早上也有其他委員建議，我們會一併再次提出這樣合理的計算方式。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想……"],["賴委員士葆：副院長、副院長！請你不要講，因為我的時間……"],["鄭副院長麗君：關於對我方有利的論述，我們都會交叉充分地運用，如果委員有需要，也可以找時間詳細再跟委員報告各國最終公布的條件以及不同的性質，譬如投資的數字有不同的性質。"],["賴委員士葆：我要請教院長，這個部分副院長比較沒有角色。現在來看的話，賴總統前幾天講話，講了4個重點，其中兩個重點，第一個重點就是啟動立院行政新的互動模式；第二個重點是啟動內閣改組。","請邱部長上來一下，衛福部的邱部長，你要不要上來一下？來，媒體講得繪聲繪影，這麼大聲在說院長要求邱部長寫請辭信，邱部長拒絕，有這個事情嗎？邱部長讓你先講，前幾天你有沒有跟院長見面？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["賴委員士葆：有！好，是不是院長要你寫辭職信，你不要？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有、沒有，沒有這回事。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我跟邱部長見面的時候，第一個問他對未來的工作有沒有什麼樣長遠的計畫？他跟我講了很多他過去所做的跟未來所要做的，這是我們剛見面過程的開始，結束的時候……"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼媒體寫得這麼大，說你叫他請辭，他不要？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我跟邱部長見面……"],["賴委員士葆：來、來、來，給邱部長講話，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一句話就好了！我跟邱部長見面時只有我們兩個人，沒有任何媒體在現場。"],["賴委員士葆：邱部長講個話，有沒有要你寫辭職信？有沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，沒有，我們都是談工作計畫……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有叫你寫辭職信？"],["邱部長泰源：包括衛福部現在的工作跟健康臺灣推動的狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：從這個事情看來，我覺得原來的黃彥男、郭智輝兩位部長大概也都是被請辭啦！換言之，完全就是由上而下，我要你走，讓你走得比較好看而已！讓你自己說是因為健康因素、生涯規劃，讓你走得比較好看而已！"],["卓院長榮泰：黃部長因為借調期間至8月底，所以他回歸到中研院，至於郭部長更是有其他的個人因素。"],["賴委員士葆：邱部長確定喔？邱部長，在立法院國會殿堂要講實話！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["賴委員士葆：確實沒有要你寫辭職信？確實沒有？確實沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有、沒有，確實沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：那你可以請回。關於內閣改組的部分，第二個賴總統說要啟動新的立法、行政互動模式，上個禮拜你在這裡接受我的質詢也這樣講啊！新的模式，結果新的模式是什麼？我們看到115年的中央政府總預算，三讀通過了軍人加薪、三讀通過了警消條例，結果你通通不編了！好了，你說是因為釋憲，賴總統還替你講話，這個叫做胡說八道！114年、今年度的中央政府總預算，請問你有沒有在執行？請問你有沒有在執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：114年度？"],["賴委員士葆：114年度、今年度。"],["卓院長榮泰：目前正在執行中央政府總預算。"],["賴委員士葆：正在執行嘛！請問你有沒有提釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：114年中央政府總預算？"],["賴委員士葆：對，有沒有提釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們提出過覆議。"],["賴委員士葆：你在5月提覆議，8月提釋憲，8月憲法法庭受理，答案還沒有出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["賴委員士葆：換言之，大家都知道這是一個ABC，只要法律案三讀通過經總統公告了，你要釋憲可以，但要先實施。換言之，115年的中央政府總預算，你說軍人加薪因為釋憲、警消條例因為釋憲而不編預算，這個叫違法亂紀、違法違憲。"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個回答：第一個，委員是財政的專家，在立法院多年，立法院通過一個法案要行政院增加預算，是否合憲值得考慮；第二個，這次的釋憲案，我們併同提出暫時處分，希望暫時處分在釋憲結果確定之後，如果違憲，我們就不做違憲機關的行為；如果合憲，必須要補正，我們就補正。"],["賴委員士葆：不是這樣子啦！我剛剛跟你講老半天，你都沒有認真聽！114年的預算正在執行，你也是提釋憲……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我們沒有暫時處分哪！"],["賴委員士葆：你也在執行啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有暫時處分。"],["賴委員士葆：你也在執行啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在這一次我們對於明年度預算……"],["賴委員士葆：我們都了解啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們提了暫時處分。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要去這樣……這個大家都了解，就是只要總統公告就生效、總統公告就生效，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有生效的我們也不能覆議、不能釋憲，所以一定生效。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，生效的你也沒有提覆議，你沒有提覆議，對不對？你就直接跳去釋憲，暫時處分。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為大院委員都很希望我不提覆議啊！"],["賴委員士葆：不能用這樣的理由。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們有提暫時處分，這一次有提暫時處分。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，老實講，我對你上個禮拜的答復是滿意的，但是今天的答復，我是不滿意的，我覺得你還是擺開一副要跟立法院吵架的架式嘛！哪裡有行動？"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院用一個法案來增加行政機關的大幅支出，這樣對嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我們要求依法編列，那就會重演原來114年禁伐補償你不編，我們會退回，我就強力主張要退回，因為我們通過的，追加沒有道理。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員還是認為立法院可以用一個法案或一個預算案來大幅增加行政機關的預算編列，然後大幅支出。"],["賴委員士葆：那我就告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個沒有違反憲法跟預算法嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：來！我就告訴你，民進黨的先進們，最早提出來的那個人叫許信良，他當立委的時候提出來，要給老人津貼一個人三千，一樣啊！跟這個一模一樣啊！通過了！"],["卓院長榮泰：當時如果有徵詢過行政院，行政院同意，就沒有違憲的問題，如果沒有徵詢過，而且沒有指出資金的來源，那就有違憲之虞啊！不是嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：這種案子太多了啦！立法委員、民進黨的委員提案，然後也增加預算，這個太多太多了，我就不要再講了。我再請鄭副院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：此例不可開啊！"],["賴委員士葆：請鄭副院長跟中央銀行楊總裁。"],["主席：請鄭副院長跟楊總裁備詢。"],["賴委員士葆：現在講20%+N啦，其實如果把匯率加進來，就是三十幾%啦！請問總裁，從4月2號到現在臺幣升值多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們從今年開始來算，我們是7.18%。"],["賴委員士葆：我要你從4月2號開始算。"],["楊總裁金龍：那這個我大概要再算一下，我現在不大了解。"],["賴委員士葆：我告訴你最少10%，為什麼從4月2號開始算？因為那時候川普講關稅的問題，從那時候開始算起，請問你現在外匯存底多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的外匯存底大概是5,800億左右。"],["賴委員士葆：每一天的匯市增加多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：大概15億到20億。"],["賴委員士葆：15億到20億？天啊！vs. 5,800億，老實講你要調節太容易了！你要維持在哪裡就哪裡啦！但是因為你怕人家說你是匯率操作，所以猶豫不決、閃閃躲躲，但是那個時候突然殺得你這樣，突然一漲，啪！一下子一塊錢、兩塊錢。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員講的也沒有錯啦，不過我們有一個原則必須要把握住，就是升值或貶值的時候，你的調節，委員的意思是說你都可以來調節，但是呢……"],["賴委員士葆：當然可以調節啊！本來央行就可以調節！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我說調節要有節制啦，所以不管是貶值調節或升值調節都要有節制。"],["賴委員士葆：現在證明了你當初讓它大幅升值，那是配合關稅談判，鄭副院長跟卓院長……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這樣的誤會，國家承擔不起你這樣的指責。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，絕對沒有！"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，央行不在我們臺美經貿工作小組，也不在我談判小組，我的談判沒有涉及匯率，這個要跟委員如實的報告。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：我們事後來看啦，其實廠商們，前面這麼多的委員提到的，你不要講話，讓我講，因為我時間不多了，最大的擔心是匯率，因為匯率不是只有對美國，對全世界都是，我賣到歐洲也是，賣到東南亞也是，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：大家都非常的清楚，匯率才是重要，匯率加12%，所以我們等於32%啊！拜託！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有、沒有，我報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：不是20%啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：報告委員，所以事實上……"],["賴委員士葆：不是20%。"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上最近的話……"],["賴委員士葆：不是20%。"],["楊總裁金龍：新臺幣匯率也貶上去了。"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？那也……貶上去。"],["卓院長榮泰：匯率我們會重視，但絕對不是談判的內容，這個跟委員澄清。"],["鄭副院長麗君：不在我談判的範圍，要跟委員報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：這要跟委員澄清，謝謝。"],["鄭副院長麗君：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林岱樺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc6d1648b160a376acc0ac07f6ba1e1b09e2f170cf6863d8db057babbb10d0fc445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"15:03:13 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副院長好大家辛苦了其實我們整個談判團隊真的很用心很努力其實我們看到美國的態度所有的國家每一個世界各國其實都面臨了很大的壓力所以我相信你們在前線在做這樣的一個談判壓力也非常的大因為你們帶著所有台灣人民的期待"},{"start":49.54,"end":66.015,"text":"可是我們又要保護我們自己的產業又要把我們產業的根留在台灣所以真的是很辛苦可是因為我們在談判的過程當中資訊回到台灣是很複雜的"},{"start":67.276,"end":95.252,"text":"所以有很多不同階段的訊息而造成了我們台灣自己本身產業有很多誤解所以其實我光用這個所謂關稅疊不疊加的問題我想這個應該是最近我們的媒體當中其實最多論述最多討論的但是我覺得有必要把它一次澄清"},{"start":96.192,"end":119.876,"text":"其實如果依照關稅疊加的部分我找了所有的資料我沒有詢問你們我自己找資料我發現如果以美國官方公布的其實關稅不疊加的只有歐盟各國其他就算我們在談的日本他也還在協議當中並沒有正式對外公布"},{"start":121.162,"end":141.978,"text":"我們台灣是在努力當中所有的國家也都在努力當中所以為什麼有人就用所謂的我們在騙基本上我們關稅要疊加我們還說20%我們沒有騙我們要先把這個基底談好"},{"start":143.001,"end":158.448,"text":"那關稅疊加是每個國家都這樣並不是只有台灣是只有歐盟沒有是所有的國家都面臨現在這個狀況可是你這個基底還沒有談好"},{"start":159.485,"end":176.074,"text":"你怎麼再說下一步所以我覺得這個部分應該要先釐清讓所有台灣人民知道而不是不同的訊息不同的民意代表所說的會讓人家誤解副院長是不是"},{"start":176.554,"end":195.606,"text":"是 委員的觀察完全的正確因為美國對各國本來就有它的MFN也就是原稅率那台灣自然也在原稅率的對象裡面只有洽簽雙邊協議有FTA的國家他們就沒有原稅率有些品項沒有"},{"start":196.286,"end":210.371,"text":"那的確在所有達成協議的國家裡面目前看到的是歐盟在最終達成協議談判最終稅率的時候那麼歐盟有不疊加MFN原稅率來這樣的做最終的稅率的這個決定"},{"start":211.491,"end":234.749,"text":"那日本有表達去爭取但目前的確也要帶美方來證實最後的這個結果那台灣因為我們還在談判中我們現在取得的20%加上MA分是從32降下來是一個階段性的一個結果那我們持續談判等到我們在談最終稅率的時候我想最終就會來決定要不要"},{"start":235.269,"end":251.549,"text":"再加上MFN不過可以跟委員報告的是說我們最近三次的視訊會議當中我們已經表達希望爭取不要疊加MFN這也是我方的立場我們會積極努力來爭取所以我們到目前為止我們的態度都沒改變"},{"start":252.964,"end":274.885,"text":"我想從卓院長對外 也是說我們現在在努力中啊我們當然要努力不疊加嘛 這是我們的方向所以我覺得我們應該要對外把這樣的一個定調而不是說 哇 因為不同的立場然後好像在唱衰我們這一個整個談判的過程我覺得真的是不好的"},{"start":275.385,"end":295.025,"text":"因為當你在做政治口水的時候基本上也會傷害到我們的產業也會讓我們的產業沒有信心我們前線在努力所有的談判團隊每天我們的視訊會議我們整個包括他給我們的時間我們要一直等待"},{"start":295.706,"end":315.512,"text":"大家是這樣子繃緊神經我就是要給大家鼓勵的所以這個部分我覺得因為我明明所看到的資訊跟媒體當中的資訊其實是有很大落差我覺得應該趁這個機會讓我們的卓院長跟鄭副院長把它表達清楚"},{"start":316.112,"end":344.738,"text":"非常感謝委員一句話您的這番話對行政團隊尤其對談判團隊是正面的非常大的一個鼓勵當我們在談判的時候我們如果想到我們的國人是希望我們去爭取更好的而不是一直說我們是在欺騙國人這個對談判團隊的心理素質是影響很大更何況如果我們的對手看我們國內是這種狀況的話他會覺得跟我們談判他可能會得到更多我們現在還沒有辦法跟他談的過程"},{"start":345.154,"end":365.724,"text":"所以謝謝委員這樣正向的一個鼓勵我們會珍惜但是我們會利用這樣的鼓勵我們請談判團隊據理力爭為國家爭取最大利益一定要加油啦因為我也不能接受用欺騙兩個字因為我們在前線有很多真的還沒有到談判的結果我們不能公佈啊"},{"start":367.577,"end":390.588,"text":"你來我往的過程當中每一個都是機密每一個都是重點那當然我們知道我們要保護我們的產業我們一定要保護我們自己能夠保護的最後一個底線談判代表比誰都知道所以我覺得真的今天會利用這個時間去把這個疊加的部分因為"},{"start":391.55,"end":406.615,"text":"我覺得很難過啦因為我們也不能替你們說話我們就希望說能夠用這樣的訊息我自己去找的我說奇怪明明在美國官方網站真的沒有疊加的就一個歐盟各國"},{"start":407.515,"end":433.856,"text":"那為什麼還不斷的用這樣子的一個言語然後呢來傷害我們的談判團隊這是我覺得我不捨的地方那第二個部分就是說其實我們目前為止說真的放無薪假的確實有這個不能說沒有那無薪假的部分就是因為有太多的不確定性"},{"start":435.373,"end":460.991,"text":"他害怕 所以我一直在談的是我們擔任民意代表我們更應該是要讓產業有信心不能用錯誤的訊息或是懷疑 猜疑的訊息而讓產業更沒有信心所以我們現在放無薪假我也知道我們行政院有要求我們勞動部一定要積極主動去了解原因是 勞動部主動訪視"},{"start":462.634,"end":480.01,"text":"對但是呢因為說真的我們在基層有聽到大家的壓力是因為我們的匯率沒有穩定到底未來會不會隨時有做調整所以他們都會擔心我多接了一張單我可能會"},{"start":482.165,"end":502.534,"text":"因為這樣而損失一張單就是在這個賺的價差的當中所以這個怎麼讓大家穩定信心這個很重要所以我覺得他們現在都覺得說我乾脆現在先按兵不動也是現在無薪假的原因我先按兵不動"},{"start":503.334,"end":521.944,"text":"我來了解整個局勢變化之後我再進一步所以這個都是他們內心的不穩定跟擔心所以這個也跟我們勞動部長說明一下這個無薪假有時候是一個擔憂因為我們的競爭力到底會不會萎縮來 部長"},{"start":525.106,"end":545.837,"text":"跟委員說明第一個其實因為實際上應該叫減班休息因為有時候講無薪假會讓大家以為真的可以無薪有時候有些勞工以為真的可以無薪他就不知道自己的權益在法規上面是不能夠無薪的至少要給最低工資這是第一個第二個就像剛剛委員說到其實現在大家可能會同時受到美國的關稅"},{"start":547.048,"end":575.184,"text":"又有匯率的影響所以我們現在在我們的強化版的僱傭安定措施裡面把如果你是受到匯率影響的也放進來可以做薪資補貼那我們薪資的這個差額補貼過去是五成我們也提高到七成所以其實我們都希望更大力的來支持減班休息勞工的經濟安全的部分那現在把原本的行業別原本是三個那現在也放寬到九個"},{"start":576.104,"end":604.98,"text":"那這也是聽了很多我們工會跟勞工朋友的想法所以我想我們會盡全力的來支持我們的勞工朋友最重要的是我們希望不要讓勞工朋友遇到失業或者是他要離開職場的狀況因為他只要還keep在他的這個職場上面的話未來訂單來他隨時都還可以快速的恢復就可以上位上位這對企業好那對勞工朋友至少他在經濟上面他不會馬上要去找工作尤其是如果遇到中高齡的勞工這對他來說都會是更多的挑戰"},{"start":605.7,"end":617.725,"text":"所以剛剛部長所說的我們應該更改這不是無薪假他基本上都要給基本工資對不對所以我們應該把這個觀念稍微調整所以我一定都會強調說"},{"start":619.465,"end":638.753,"text":"不是叫無心價這叫減班休息因為講多了真的很多勞工會以為好像真的可以無心所以是減班休息隨時等待這一波的動盪完我們要隨時上工隨時上位對不對所以我今天問這些問題都是要讓我們的行政團隊不要被誤解"},{"start":639.913,"end":658.259,"text":"因為常常都會被誤解減班休息還有因為是景氣大環境關係其中還有一部分是因為關稅關係勞動部都把它分析出來的我們會針對關稅的部分特別來加以重視但是整個大環境減班休息的我們還是用一般的勞工政策來替他做一些紓困上的解決"},{"start":658.479,"end":670.676,"text":"跟委員再補充每一個通報減班休息的廠商勞動部都會親自聯繫跟拜訪來瞭解到底發生什麼事情需要什麼協助我們可以投注什麼資源每一個通報減班休息的廠商我們都會主動聯繫"},{"start":671.547,"end":693.753,"text":"我們可能更積極然後跟他們做聯繫也把這樣的訊息通報每一個我們產業別他們都有工會嘛讓他們知道我們政府是有在協助在這個區塊的一個勞工的諮詢甚至協助我們已經規劃接下來要去每一個可能會受影響的工協會都希望讓他們知道我們有提供這樣的資源"},{"start":694.173,"end":721.493,"text":"好那這個速度可能快一點那我再就叫我們的院長院長其實我們把所有的產業品把它弄出來其實可能會比較直接的就是蝴蝶蘭還有五國魚還有茶葉鬼頭刀毛豆鱸魚這是農業的那其實我們再把它細分說真的蝴蝶蘭是因為我們最主要的對手是荷蘭"},{"start":722.914,"end":741.836,"text":"因為荷蘭的關稅比我們低所以我覺得這個部分蝴蝶蘭可能是我們的重中之重在我們台南我們大家都聽到要死所以這個部分要拜託然後再來吳國瑜的產業他基本上因為我們主要競爭對手是中國"},{"start":742.617,"end":763.717,"text":"那當然中國是55%是還沒疊加的部分但是我們以這個關稅的一個基礎來講它是55%那這個茶葉的部分基本上因為我們競爭的對手跟我們都差不多所以我覺得我們還要細分整個我們的競爭對手優越是比較"},{"start":764.718,"end":780.553,"text":"對 一定要比較否則大家會亂掉 說我們被受害的這麼嚴重但是其實產業都說 我們的航班是趕快撐上來我相信我們台灣撐得過因為我們有可以條件去跟人家拚競爭我們擔心的是說"},{"start":782.515,"end":810.598,"text":"像蝴蝶蘭荷蘭就比我們關稅低這麼多那在關稅要出去就已經競爭力少了人家一截了所以我認為說我們還要把每一個產業的細項把它分出來那還有就是說我們工具機的產業也是我們工具機的產業我們為什麼大家會哀哀叫因為工具機的產業我們主要對手是德國日本韓國他們的一個"},{"start":812.118,"end":836.861,"text":"關稅都比我們低所以我覺得我們要依照產業別特別再把它挑出來加重協助我覺得這才是比較重要否則你看我們我們也認為說我們所有的這個產業別中小企業有可能說手工具產業啦水五金產業重電產業還有我們的塑膠產業都可能受到衝擊可是因為競爭對手都是中國"},{"start":837.782,"end":859.836,"text":"都是中國 所以相對的壓力就減了我覺得我們應該要把這個訊息丟出來否則大家都不知道可能自己這個產業的也未必那麼清楚都不知道我的競爭對手是誰都覺得說你看美國關稅這個樣子我是不是失去了競爭力可是其實所有的產業都說"},{"start":861.337,"end":887.377,"text":"我只要我跟別人是一樣的關稅我就有把握我可以贏過別人這是我們台灣的驕傲啊那我們要怎麼讓他有這樣的條件就是我們現在要去幫他的從農業 從中小企業這樣的角度所以我覺得這個是我們先要做也是我要拜託院長我們的資訊要給產業更清楚讓他們有信心你從中國拚 中國的"},{"start":889.838,"end":914.734,"text":"55% 你在怕什麼我覺得這個樣子的話他會更有信心那真的我們的對手是比較低的競爭關稅是比較低的那我們就要給他更多的幫忙所以這個部分院長我早上的報告裡面我說到工業方面工具機手工具水滸金重電塑膠農業方面的蝴蝶籃毛豆鬼頭刀以及委員剛剛所說的我們受的衝擊比較大"},{"start":915.956,"end":920.001,"text":"所以我們用各種的金融支持產業支持方面來協助讓他的衝擊減少認為我們這個地方我們競爭力可能會減少"},{"start":954.697,"end":955.058,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":134,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（15時3分）謝謝副院長。我請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員亭妃：還有副院長。"],["主席：還有鄭副院長，請備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長好、副院長好。大家辛苦了，其實我們整個談判團隊真的很用心、很努力。我們看到美國的態度，所有國家、世界各國其實都面臨了很大的壓力，所以我相信你們在前線這樣談判，壓力也非常的大，因為你們帶著所有臺灣人民的期待，可是我們又要保護自己的產業、又要把產業的根留在臺灣，所以真的是很辛苦！可是在談判的過程當中，資訊回到臺灣是很複雜的，有很多不同階段的訊息造成了臺灣自己本身產業有很多誤解。光用關稅疊不疊加的問題，我想這個應該是最近媒體有最多論述、最多討論的，我覺得有必要把它一次澄清。如果依照關稅疊加的部分，我找了所有的資料，我沒有詢問你們，我自己找資料。我發現如果以美國官方公布的，其實關稅不疊加的只有歐盟各國，其他就算我們在談的日本也在協議當中，並沒有正式對外公布，臺灣是在努力當中、所有國家也都在努力當中，為什麼有人就說我們在騙？基本上我們關稅要疊加啊！我們竟然還說20%。我們沒有騙，我們是要先把基底談好，關稅疊加是每個國家都這樣，並不是只有臺灣，是只有歐盟沒有，所有的國家都在面臨現在這個狀況，可是這個基底還沒有談好，你怎麼再說下一步？我覺得這個部分應該要先釐清，讓所有臺灣人民知道，而不是因為不同的訊息、不同的民意代表所說的，讓人家有誤解。副院長，是不是？"],["鄭副院長麗君：是，委員的觀察完全正確。因為美國對各國本來就有他的MFN，也就是原稅率，臺灣自然也在原稅率的對象裡面，只有洽簽雙邊協議、有FTA的國家有些品項就沒有原稅率。的確在所有達成協議的國家裡面，目前看到的是歐盟在達成協議、談判最終稅率的時候，有不疊加MFN原稅率來做最終稅率的決定；日本有表達去爭取，但目前的確也要待美方證實最後的結果；因為臺灣還在談判中，我們現在取得的20%加上MFN是從32%降下來，是一個階段性的結果，那我們持續談判，等到談最終稅率的時候，我想最終就會來決定要不要再加上MFN。不過我可以跟委員報告的是，我們在最近3次的視訊會議當中，已經表達希望爭取不要疊加MFN，這也是我方的立場，我們會積極努力來爭取。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們到目前為止，態度都沒改變嘛！卓院長對外也是說：我們現在在努力中啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們當然要努力不疊加，這是我們的方向，所以我們應該要對外把這樣的方向定調，而不是說：哇！因為不同的立場，然後好像在唱衰整個談判的過程，我覺得這個是不好的。因為當你在做政治口水的時候，基本上也會傷害到我們的產業，也會讓我們的產業沒有信心。前線在努力，所有的談判團隊除了進行視訊會議，還要一直等待，大家是這樣子繃緊神經，我覺得是要給大家鼓勵的。因為我所看到的資訊跟媒體當中的資訊，其實是有很大落差，我覺得應該要趁這個機會，讓卓院長跟副院長把它表達清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常感謝委員，您的這番話對行政團隊，尤其對於談判團隊是正面的、非常大的鼓勵，當我們在談判的時候想到國人是希望去爭取更好，而不是一直說我們是在欺騙國人，這個對談判團隊的心理素質影響很大。更何況，如果我們的對手看國內是這種狀況，他會覺得跟我們談判可能會得到更多，在我們現在還沒有辦法跟他談的過程，所以謝謝委員正向的鼓勵，我們會珍惜，但是我們也會利用這樣的鼓勵，請談判團隊據理力爭為國家爭取最大利益。"],["陳委員亭妃：一定要加油，我不能接受用「欺騙」兩個字，因為前線真的有很多還沒有到談判的結果，我們不能公布啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：在你來我往的過程當中，每一個都是機密、每一個都是重點，當然我們知道一定要保護我們的產業、一定要保護我們自己能夠保護的最後底線，談判代表比誰都知道。我今天會利用這個時間把疊加的部分表達，是因為我覺得很難過，我也不能替你們說話，就希望能夠用這樣的訊息釐清。這是我自己去找的，我說：奇怪，明明在美國官方網站真的沒有疊加的就歐盟各國，為什麼還不斷用這樣子的言語來傷害談判團隊？這是我覺得不捨的地方。","第二個部分，目前為止，說真的，確實有放無薪假，不能說沒有。無薪假的部分，就是因為有太多的不確定性，他害怕。我一直在談的是，我們擔任民意代表，更應該要讓產業有信心，不能用錯誤的訊息或是懷疑、猜疑的訊息，而讓產業更沒有信心，所以現在放無薪假，我也知道行政院有要求勞動部一定要積極主動去了解原因。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，勞動部主動訪視。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，但是說真的，在基層有聽到大家的壓力是因為我們的匯率沒有穩定，到底未來會不會隨時調整？他們都會擔心如果多接了一張單，可能會這樣而損失一張單，因為賺的取決在這價差當中，所以怎麼讓大家穩定信心是很重要的。他們現在都覺得乾脆現在先按兵不動，這也是現在無薪假的原因，先按兵不動了解整個局勢變化之後再進一步，所以這些都造成他們內心不穩定跟擔心，也跟勞動部長說明一下，無薪假有時候是一個擔憂，我們的競爭力到底會不會萎縮？來，部長。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，實際上應該叫減班休息，因為有時候講無薪假會讓大家以為真的可以無薪，有些勞工會以為真的可以無薪，他不知道自己的權益，在法規上面是不能夠無薪的，至少要給最低工資，這是第一個。","第二個，就像剛剛委員說到，其實現在大家可能同時受到美國的關稅以及匯率的影響，所以現在在強化版的僱用安定措施裡面，如果受到匯率影響的也有放進來，可以做薪資補貼。薪資的差額補貼過去是五成，我們也提高到七成，我們都希望更大力地來支持減班休息勞工的經濟安全。現在把原本的行業別三個放寬到九個，這也是聽了很多工會跟勞工朋友的想法，所以我想我們會盡全力地來支持勞工朋友。最重要的是，我們希望不要讓勞工朋友遇到失業或者要離開職場的狀況，因為他只要還keep在職場上面的話，未來訂單來，他隨時都還可以快速恢復……"],["陳委員亭妃：就可以上位。"],["洪部長申翰：上位。這對企業好，對勞工朋友，至少他在經濟上面不會馬上要去找工作，尤其是如果中高齡的勞工遇到，對他來說會是更多的挑戰。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以剛剛部長所說的，我們應該更改，這不是無薪假，基本上還是要給基本工資，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們應該把這個觀念稍微調整……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我一定都會強調這不是叫無薪假，這叫減班休息，因為講多了，很多勞工會以為好像真的可以無薪。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以是減班休息，隨時等待這一波的動盪完要隨時上工、隨時上位，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我今天問這些問題都是要讓行政團隊不要被誤解，因為常常都會被誤解。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，減班休息還有因為景氣、大環境的關係，其中還有一部分是因為關稅的關係，勞動部都把它分析出來，我們會針對關稅的部分特別加以重視，但是整個大環境減班休息的，我們還是用一般的勞工政策替他做一些紓困上的解決。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員再補充，每一個通報減班休息的廠商，勞動部都會親自聯繫跟拜訪，去了解到底發生什麼事情、需要什麼協助，我們可以投入什麼資源？每一個通報減班休息的廠商，我們都會主動聯繫。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們可能要更積極跟他們聯繫，也把這樣的訊息通報每一個產業別，他們都有工會嘛！讓他們知道政府在這個區塊是有協助勞工的諮詢，甚至協助，這個部分……"],["洪部長申翰：我們已經規劃接下來要去每一個可能會受影響的工協會，希望讓他們都知道我們有提供這樣的資源。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，速度可能要快一點。我再就教院長，我們把所有的產業別弄出來，可能會比較直接影響的就是蝴蝶蘭、吳郭魚、茶葉、鬼頭刀、毛豆、鱸魚，這是農業的部分。其實我們再把它細分，說真的，我們的蝴蝶蘭最主要的對手是荷蘭，因為荷蘭的關稅比我們低，所以我覺得蝴蝶蘭可能是我們的重中之重。"],["卓院長榮泰：確實。"],["陳委員亭妃：它的產地在臺南，大家都疼得要死，所以這個部分要拜託。再來，吳郭魚的產業，基本上因為我們主要競爭對手是中國，當然中國關稅是55%，55%是還沒疊加，但是以這個關稅的基礎來講，它是55%。茶葉的部分，基本上，因為我們的競爭對手跟我們都差不多，所以我覺得我們還要細分競爭對手……"],["鄭副院長麗君：競爭對手的優劣勢比較。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，一定要比較，否則大家會亂掉，說我們受害的這麼嚴重，其實產業都說只要跟別人有一樣的競爭基礎，所以我相信臺灣撐得過，因為我們有條件可以去跟人家拼競爭。我們擔心的是，像蝴蝶蘭，荷蘭就比我們關稅低這麼多，因為關稅，要出去的時候競爭力就已經少了人家一節了，所以我認為我們還要把每一個產業的細項分出來。","還有工具機產業也是一樣，為什麼工具機產業會哀哀叫？因為我們的工具機產業主要對手是德國、日本、韓國，他們的關稅都比我們低，所以我覺得我們要依照產業別特別再把它挑出來加重協助，這才是比較重要的。我們也認為手工具產業、水五金產業、重電產業，還有塑膠產業都可能受到衝擊，可是因為競爭對手都是中國，所以相對的壓力就減了，我覺得我們應該要把這個訊息丟出來，否則大家都不知道。可能自己在這個產業的也未必那麼清楚，都不知道競爭對手是誰，都覺得美國關稅這個樣子，我是不是就失去了競爭力？其實所有的產業都說只要跟別人是一樣的關稅，就有把握可以贏過別人，這是臺灣的驕傲啊！那我們要怎麼讓他有這樣的條件？就是我們現在要去幫他的，從農業、從中小企業這樣的角度，所以我覺得這是我們現在要做的，也是我要拜託院長的，我們的資訊要讓產業更清楚，讓他們有信心。你跟中國拼，而中國是55%，你在怕什麼？這樣的話，它會更有信心。如果對手的競爭關稅是比較低的，那我們就要給它更多的幫忙。所以這個部分院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：兩句話答復委員。我早上的報告裡面說到工業方面：工具機、手工具、水五金、重電、塑膠，農業方面的蝴蝶蘭、毛豆、鬼頭刀，以及委員剛剛所說的，受的衝擊比較大，所以我們用各種的金融支持、產業支持等方面來協助，讓它的衝擊減少。因為我們認為這個地方我們的競爭力可能會減少。"],["陳委員亭妃：要拜託院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是對於其他的，競爭對手稅率比我們高，或是產品沒有我們好，或許我們的競爭力是不錯的，我說過政府還是幫助它，不會因為你競爭力好，讓你自己去拚，政府不能做啦啦隊，我的意思就在這裡。我們還是跟你站在一起，跟產業站在一起，同時把它拚出來。"],["陳委員亭妃：說真的，我們的產業，我們很驕傲，他們認為只要政府給他們好的競爭空間，他們是絕對有信心可以打贏這場仗的。"],["卓院長榮泰：政府也要用力的支持。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝院長、副院長。","接下來，請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─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謝謝大委主席那我們一樣先請卓榮泰院長以及請這個剛剛還沒有回答完的這個我們央行的總裁 楊靖榮總裁 謝謝來 請卓院長還有央行的總裁 備詢謝謝 方議員好院長好 總裁好我想先剛剛李委員剛剛問到一半因為後面沒有"},{"start":29.738,"end":52.458,"text":"生意沒有記錄我在這邊正式再跟總裁詢問一下因為我想產業界都非常關心除了稅率之外匯率當然大家也非常關心那匯率之外影響當然就是我們經濟成長會不會降息的可能性我想要請總裁因為這個今天我現在問你這個問題這個才有語音記錄我想請問總裁我們今年有降息的可能嗎如果因為上半年確實我想因為中間這段時間"},{"start":53.959,"end":81.298,"text":"美國關稅這個休息的期間大家大量出貨所以看起來經濟成長動能是很強但是就我們所收到民間的訊息很多的工具機產業很多機械業很多的產業界這些製造業他們預估他們認為下半年的景氣可能出貨量不會像上半年這麼暢旺所以有可能這個經濟成長可能又下修了在這個傳統產業的部分所以大家想問的是說有沒有可能下半年都有降息的可能性總裁是"},{"start":82.825,"end":95.752,"text":"中央銀行的一個調整利率我們不會是針對某一個產業我們是看整體的我們的一個判斷的標準第一個就是經濟成長率"},{"start":98.502,"end":116.81,"text":"物價就正如我剛剛所說的我們經濟成長率今年即使我們今年的上半年我們經濟成長率大概是在6.75%但是我們的後半年還有將近2.3%所以整個來講的話我們整年的經濟成長率是在4.45%這是我們主力總署最新的一個評估的資料"},{"start":127.634,"end":151.618,"text":"那就以我們的物價來看的話大概是在2%下面一些我們的匯率如果說就匯率來看因為現在大家都是在關心匯率的問題事實上我們從1月到現在8月22號就上個禮拜五來看的話我們新台幣的匯率是上漲了7.18%但是我們的7.18%"},{"start":155.39,"end":173.474,"text":"跟日元 日元是6.98 才差0.2個百分點而已跟韓元來比較是差了0.78個百分點但是日本的經濟成長率 前半年的經濟成長率他才1.5% 韓國是0.25%我們台灣差很多"},{"start":180.171,"end":195.299,"text":"所以我就說我們的新台幣的匯率即使是7.18比日元跟韓元來的高了一點點但是我們的基本面都比他們好好很多總裁沒關係稍後會討論到實際產業面的需求"},{"start":195.999,"end":204.165,"text":"是 我想我們九月份的禮監事會會來討論這個問題總裁謝謝今天今天主題我想院長我想這個對等關稅的稅率行政院當然目前認為說我們總體減少了衝擊從32%降到20%那我想問一下院長這個是因為我們看到數據其實我們這個川普他從"},{"start":219.395,"end":246.941,"text":"台灣時間7月23號開始陸陸續續的宣布了日本跟菲律賓跟印尼還有這個南海各國達成的協議那台灣這邊是到8月1號我想我們看到賴總統說所以獲得階段性成果從32%調降到20%但20%從一開始就不是台灣談判的目標所以希望在後續談判中能夠爭取更有利更合理的稅率我想請問一下這個20%是談判的結果"},{"start":249.561,"end":264.33,"text":"還是說這個是單方面美國認為先這樣子以後再談當然是目前是暫時性的對等關稅有我們的記憶有的關稅加上這個對等關稅20%是目前暫時性的我們在努力爭取更好更合理的一個稅率"},{"start":264.909,"end":279.015,"text":"我想問院長 也想請教副院長就是從32%到20%這個中間我們做了哪些努力或是我們拿了哪些條件所以可以先20%那後續又需要拿什麼出來談"},{"start":280.896,"end":309.004,"text":"才有可能再往下降這20%到底是談判互動的結果因為看其他國家的數據可能不然南韓也好 日本也好他們是承諾了一筆投資金額跟內容所以他獲得15%的匯率委員所提到的像日韓 歐盟等或者有些東南亞國家是完成談判的國家他們雙方有達成地友那台美的談判我們過去幾個月的確有進展但是因為我們還沒有達成協議所以美方"},{"start":310.368,"end":327.099,"text":"階段性的暫時性的將臺灣的對等稅率從32調整為20那當然我們的總稅率就是要再加上我們原來的這個美國對各國的MFN那是把它加起來但這個是一個階段性暫時性的稅率因為臺美還在繼續談判當中"},{"start":329.52,"end":343.027,"text":"我們過去兩三週以來也都持續在談我想謝謝副院長我想就是因為還在談判當中我們也知道所以今天才有這張質詢那我們看到前面其他國家的案例包含說日本包含韓國那我們要舉韓國啦"},{"start":345.048,"end":368.756,"text":"韓國他們包含提到這個造船的計畫我想大家看到新聞都很清楚他們確實也承諾要投資美國所謂3500億的部分但是3500億裡面又包含了說包含說製造他們的船塢的製造業這個船的製造業能夠這個造船業也能夠協助美國產業但同時他對南韓當地的就業又當地的工業有正面的幫助"},{"start":369.116,"end":389.954,"text":"所以要問的說像南韓這樣子的案例未來有沒有可能放在我們後續談判的過程裡面大家很關注嘛不管是你現在談的二三案條款的問題還是我們軍購的問題或是其他的產業我們跟美國一直在講說今天台灣之所以會有這麼龐大的貿易順差這去年的700多億就源自於說我們有大量的廠商去投資美國"},{"start":390.675,"end":411.503,"text":"那這投資美國廠商在大量跟台灣回購很多的設施跟器材我光講今年上半年今年上半年這個從台灣採購的廠房設備等等的跟去年同期相比成長了56倍這表示說其實雙方的貿易雙方的投資廠房是非常密集的但是這個緣起是因為我們"},{"start":412.711,"end":425.962,"text":"受美國的邀請去投資很多廠房去投資這個產業那這理論是合作關係啊就像今天他們南韓的造船業一樣是合作關係把合作關係帶進去是不是有機會降低我們未來其他產業的關稅"},{"start":427.559,"end":445.155,"text":"報告委員我是不能夠帶韓方跟美方回答不過就我們這樣觀察就是韓國除了3500億的投資承諾之外可能還有第二筆那麼他們在當時達成deal的時候美方是有宣布說還有第二筆的投資可能會帶雙方領導人"},{"start":446.955,"end":474.053,"text":"再去匯商所以我們看到像日韓 歐盟等他們基本上都是對等跟232關稅並談也就是有相關的供應鏈的合作然後同時爭取對等稅率以及232優惠的稅率那這些國家我們是很面對現實啦投資美國或是說這個部分貿易順暢是事實擺在眼前那川普就針對這事情他當然要去做對的關稅嘛"},{"start":475.715,"end":490.456,"text":"這個我沒有意見我沒有反對就是大家面對現實就是事實就是如此但今天問題談的是說我們去投資也好我們不管那個金額多少那個投資的金額有沒有可能像比照南韓某一個產業也好他們就以造船業為例嘛"},{"start":490.816,"end":515.295,"text":"他的這個資金他的這個工業的這個製造的就業率或他產出的產品對他對美國當然是有利的但對南韓自己本身也是有利的那今天台灣有沒有這樣的條件或是有沒有哪一個產業可以做這樣子的籌碼去做這件事情後續我們要談的確就是希望說雙方供應鏈的合作是互利互補雙贏的這樣的一個模式來協商所以"},{"start":515.655,"end":541.429,"text":"我們會站在我國企業在赴美擴大投資的過程當中一起企業跟政府我們一起共同有共識然後一起跟美方來協商然後在這個供應鏈合作的過程我們要爭取好的稅率所以這個是要整體一起來來談判來討論我想今天整天到目前為止我想今天都談這個關稅的問題那我們也知道說去年我們整體對美出口是1114億左右美元"},{"start":542.93,"end":567.462,"text":"今天整個上午的對話裡面一直提到說我們二三二條款的關係台灣有很多產業大概九成以上的產業都涉及到二三二條款所以我們談判必須暫時的先有為所謂暫時的處分暫時的關稅是20%那今天我要問的是說我們1114億裡面我們占比最高的出口美國最高兩個產業"},{"start":569.339,"end":598.299,"text":"我們在這個2004年美國自台進口如果以美國的數字來看1162億裡面有關232項目是944億那這當中的半導體及其衍生品是738億好 沒關係 副院長我要講的是說你看半導體自通訊產業基本上佔了大部分我們出口的總額是最高的所以這也是美方認為為什麼要更多時間跟台灣來談就是因為這樣 我要拜託我們的談判代表"},{"start":599.96,"end":607.948,"text":"因為今天台灣之水有這麼大的貿易順差是因為我們的半導體也好我們的自動機產業也好我們確實賺很多錢"},{"start":610.958,"end":634.095,"text":"我們有這個產業的實力但也因為美方對我高科技需求的成長譬如說過去這幾年像我們AI Server的這個成長其實也是美對我高科技需求的成長我們短短的跟美方表達說事實上台美供應鏈是互補合作的那台灣的製造支持美國的研發創新所以我們希望說雙方未來能夠朝向一個互利互惠的方式"},{"start":634.335,"end":659.183,"text":"今天我們要講的就是說 講白話其實我們在產業 在地方上來自台中嘛 非常多的製造業跟傳產大家心裡的苦是什麼半導體賺這麼多錢但是今天承擔苦果的是大家就所有中小企業這些機械業 這些工具企業大家一起承擔這個後果所以我要拜託的民眾 拜託台灣代表會說今天能不能分開處理"},{"start":660.711,"end":681.789,"text":"你二三個條款半導體產業鏈這個電子通訊業這個是美國這邊他們確實有給我們採購的需要或是說雙方的貿易需要合作但是扣掉這一筆之後我想真的你把這個所謂的半導體電子通訊產業扣掉之後我們整體的貿易並沒有想像中這麼高的順差"},{"start":682.87,"end":703.884,"text":"但是反而是讓所有人來承擔包含機械業包含工地產業後續趕快推進談判然後在這個工業聯合作有共識之後我們就希望可以把對等關稅再降下來讓我們的相關的這個傳統產業能夠減緩相關現在面對的衝擊這個的確是我們談判小組最大的一個目標"},{"start":704.824,"end":721.252,"text":"我們在跟美國的貿易的逆差方面我們有九成來自這些半導體自動性產業所以我們也知道我們無論如何對半導體之外的其他產業包括中小企業我們政府要用更大的產業支持來協助他們"},{"start":721.992,"end":741.764,"text":"每個國家都有它工業的優勢像您剛剛提到韓國它在造船有優勢我們在半導體有優勢但這個產業我們要讓它維持世界領先其他的我們要在這波的關稅貿易秩序重整當中我們要把它拉起來讓它不要受到產業的衝擊這是現在政府幾套方向在走 同時並行"},{"start":742.284,"end":766.07,"text":"是啦院長因為你看數字這是你們行政院今年4月4號提供的數字我們對美這個電子資訊出口美國就占了792億那去年其實說真的我們的順差也就739億你光是扣掉電子資訊通訊業之後其實我們是沒有順差的但是今天這個成果就是今天這樣子經濟成果你說好是很好但是今天因為有這關稅的問題我還是要再次強調今天是所有的"},{"start":769.105,"end":790.817,"text":"產業 產產 農業大家一起來承擔這個苦果所以我們在談判的過程裡面希望能夠分開來處理那其他的逆差方面跟美國逆差方面我們用一些採購投資就已經可以達到平衡我們也嘗試這樣表達這個我們也都跟美方有表達都這樣表達過但現在因為的確美方也希望說整體一起看待所以我們現在就是最後一個關鍵的階段我們希望一併把它磋商完畢"},{"start":791.564,"end":805.379,"text":"好 最後面對現實因為剩兩分鐘而已面對現實當然這個東西在談判中工具機產業或是說機械業確實到現在為止造成很大的衝擊我當然坦白今天上午有些業者知道我要質詢還特別打電話跟我講說因為去年2024年"},{"start":806.86,"end":832.079,"text":"台灣的機械過去兩大出口貿易對象一個是美國一個是中國但去年因為ECFA所謂零關稅部分它的條件部分中止了所以機械去年受到重擊所以很多人在去年布局的時候的確又轉去美國但今年又受到美國的關稅影響他們現在不知道怎麼辦那既然不知道怎麼辦我要問的是說政府有沒有什麼手段協助他們去尋找其他市場第二個"},{"start":833.694,"end":837.965,"text":"萬一後續8月 9月 10月開始真的有失業率發生的時候我們準備了什麼事情"},{"start":838.336,"end":868.005,"text":"我們會幫我們的產業到國外去聯合辦展覽的方式推銷我們的產品那另外我們會多元市場的開拓比方歐盟比方印度比較南向國家另外我們會用台灣品牌來加強台灣產品在世界上的認同度用優質的台灣品牌來推出我們的各項的產品我們希望這樣來實質幫助那對參展或是其他的多元市場的開拓我們在產業支持的方案裡面我們都有實質的預算來支柱"},{"start":868.447,"end":889.004,"text":"我們希望盡快啦因為像以台中為例我們必須講從台中出發我想市府也先編那一筆他很多業者去參展所以自行車剛回來他們一年至少在過那一段時間他們去歐洲參展他們拿回了250萬美金的這個訂單五天他們希望一年內大概會有450萬美金就光台中而已那其他地方當然還有嘛"},{"start":889.424,"end":908.921,"text":"這是第一個部分所以我們當然希望說拓展其他國家的市場我覺得可能是面對美國關係所以必須面對現實所以怎麼樣去協助其他產業剛剛我講了資通訊產業那個是另外一件事情但是今天我們要顧的是傳產更多就業人口可能幾百萬的就業人口這部分我們要怎麼樣去把它轉出去這是第一個部分再來就是說"},{"start":910.262,"end":928.914,"text":"我看到我們的方案裡面很多是針對貸款的利率 貸款的間隙但是要講 如果都已經沒有錢了我覺得那不是貸款問題 是要紓困 院長你認同嗎金融支持 我們有多項的金融支持我們還有一些行政成本的降低還有一些租稅的優惠 我們都同時展開"},{"start":939.209,"end":939.229,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":69,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（14時47分）謝謝大會主席，我一樣先請卓榮泰院長以及剛剛還沒有回答完的央行楊金龍總裁，謝謝。"],["主席：請卓院長還有央行總裁備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好、總裁好。剛剛李坤城委員問到一半，後面沒有聲音就沒有紀錄了，所以我在這邊再正式跟總裁詢問一下。我想產業界都非常關心，除了稅率之外，匯率當然大家也非常關心，匯率之外，影響的當然就是我們經濟成長會不會降息的可能性，我想請總裁來回答，因為我現在問你這個問題才有語音紀錄，我想請問總裁我們今年有降息的可能嗎？因為上半年確實……因為中間這段時間，美國關稅休息的期間大家都大量出貨，所以看起來經濟成長動能很強，但是就我們所收到的民間訊息，很多的工具機產業、機械業等產業界，這些製造業預估下半年的景氣是認為出貨量可能不會像上半年這麼暢旺，所以這個經濟成長率有可能又要下修了，在傳統產業的部分。大家想問的是，下半年有沒有降息的可能性？總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，中央銀行的調整利率不會是針對某一個產業，我們是看整體的。我們的判斷標準，第一個就是經濟成長率、物價，就誠如我剛剛所說的，以我們的經濟成長率來說，今年上半年的經濟成長率大概是在6.75%，但是後半年還有將近2.3%，所以整個來講的話，我們整年的經濟成長率是4.45%，這個是主計總處最新的評估資料。就我們的物價來看，大概是在2%下面一些。至於我們的匯率，如果就匯率來看，因為現在大家都是在關心匯率的問題，事實上，從1月到現在8月22號，也就是到上個禮拜五，新臺幣的匯率上漲了7.18%，但是我們的7.18%跟日圓的6.98%才差0.2個百分點而已，跟韓元比較是差了0.78個百分點。但日本前半年的經濟成長率才1.5%，韓國是0.25%，差臺灣很多，新臺幣的匯率即使上漲7.18%，比日圓跟韓元來得高了一點點，所以我們的基本面都比他們好、好很多。"],["黃委員健豪：總裁，沒關係，我稍後會討論到實際產業面的需求……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我想我們9月份的理監事會會來討論這個問題。"],["黃委員健豪：總裁，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：針對今天的主題，院長，有關對等關稅的稅率，行政院目前認為總體減少了衝擊，從32%降到20%。那我想問一下院長，因為我們看到數據，其實川普從臺灣時間7月23號開始，陸陸續續宣布了日本、菲律賓、印尼還有南韓等各國達成協議，而臺灣是到8月1號我們才看到賴總統說已獲得階段性成果，從32%調降到20%，但20%從一開始就不是臺灣談判的目標，所以希望在後續談判中能夠爭取更有利、更合理的稅率。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["黃委員健豪：那我想請問一下，20%是談判的結果，還是這個是單方面、美國認為先這樣子，以後再談？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然目前是暫時性的對等關稅，我們既有的關稅加上這個對等關稅20%，是目前暫時性的，我們再努力爭取更好、更合理的稅率。"],["黃委員健豪：我想問院長，也想請教副院長，從32%到20%這中間我們做了哪些努力，或是我們拿了哪些條件，所以可以先20%；後續又需要拿什麼出來談，才有可能再往下降？這20%到底是談判互動的結果……因為看其他國家的數據，可能不管是南韓也好、日本也好，他們是承諾了一筆投資金額跟內容，所以獲得15%的稅率。"],["鄭副院長麗君：委員所提到的像日、韓、歐盟等，或者有些東南亞國家是完成談判的國家，他們雙方有達成deal。臺美的談判，我們過去幾個月的確有進展，因為我們還沒有達成協議，所以美方階段性、暫時性地將臺灣的對等稅率從32%調整為20%。當然我們的總稅率，就是要再加上原來美國對各國的MFN，把它加起來，但這是一個階段性、暫時性的稅率，因為臺美還在繼續談判當中。我們過去這兩、三週以來也都持續在談，所以還在談……"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝副院長。就是因為還在談判當中，我們也知道，所以今天才有這場質詢。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對。"],["黃委員健豪：我們看到前面其他國家的案例，包含日本、韓國。"],["鄭副院長麗君：他們是已經達成協議。"],["黃委員健豪：那我要舉韓國為例，他們提到造船的計畫。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對。"],["黃委員健豪：我想大家看到新聞都很清楚，他們確實也承諾要投資美國所謂3,500億，但這3,500億裡面又包含了船塢的製造業，造船業也能夠協助美國產業，同時它對南韓當地的就業，也就是當地的工業有正面的幫助。所以要問的是，像南韓這樣子的案例，未來有沒有可能放在我們後續談判的過程裡面？大家很關注嘛！不管是你現在談的232條款的問題，還是我們軍購的問題，或是其他的產業，我們跟美國一直在講。今天臺灣之所以會有這麼龐大的貿易順差，去年的七百多億，就源自於我們有大量的廠商去投資美國，這些投資美國的廠商再大量跟臺灣回購很多的設施跟器材。我光講今年上半年，今年上半年從臺灣採購的廠房、設備等等，跟去年同期相比成長了56倍，56倍耶！表示其實雙方的貿易，雙方的投資、廠房，是非常密集的，但這個緣起是因為我們受美國的邀請去投資很多廠房、去投資產業，這裡面是合作關係啊！就像今天南韓的造船業一樣，是合作關係，把合作關係帶進去，是不是有機會降低我們未來其他產業的關稅？"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，這個我是不能夠代韓方跟美方回答，不過就我們這樣觀察，韓國除了3,500億的投資承諾之外，可能還有第二筆。那麼他們在當時達成deal的時候，美方有宣布還有第二筆的投資，可能待雙方領導人再去會商。我們看到像日、韓、歐盟等，他們基本上都是對等跟232關稅併談，也就是有相關的供應鏈合作，同時爭取對等稅率以及232優惠的稅率……"],["黃委員健豪：副院長，我們現在要面對現實，投資美國或是這個部分，貿易順差是事實、擺在眼前，川普就針對這個事情，他當然要去做對等關稅……"],["鄭副院長麗君：這也是後續我們雙方……"],["黃委員健豪：這個我沒有意見，我沒有反對，就是大家面對現實，事實就是如此。但今天要談的是，我們去投資也好，不管那個金額是多少，投資的金額有沒有可能比照像南韓某一個產業也好，他們就以造船業為例，它的資金、工業製造的就業率或是產出的產品，對美國當然是有利的，對南韓自己本身也是有利的，臺灣有沒有這樣的條件，或是有沒有哪一個產業可以有這樣子的籌碼去做這件事情？"],["鄭副院長麗君：後續我們要談的確就是希望雙方供應鏈的合作是互利、互補、雙贏的，以這樣的模式來協商，所以我們會站在我國企業赴美擴大投資的過程當中，企業跟政府一起共同有共識，一起跟美方來協商，然後在供應鏈合作的過程，我們要爭取好的稅率，這個是要整體一起來談判、來討論的。"],["黃委員健豪：到目前為止，我想今天一整天都在談關稅的問題，我們也知道，去年我們整體對美出口是1,114億美元左右。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對。"],["黃委員健豪：今天整個上午的對話裡面，一直提到因為232條款的關係，臺灣有很多產業，大概九成以上的產業都涉及到232條款，所以我們談判必須先有所謂暫時的處分……"],["鄭副院長麗君：逆差的部分"],["黃委員健豪：暫時的關稅是20%。今天我要問的是，這1,114億裡面占比最高的、出口美國最高的是哪個產業？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們在2024年美國自臺進口，如果以美國的數字來看，1,162億裡面有關232的項目是944億，這當中半導體及其衍生品是738億，資通訊產業……"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，副院長，我要講的是，你看半導體、資通訊產業，基本上占了大部分，出口的總額是最高的。"],["鄭副院長麗君：沒有錯，所以這也是美方認為為什麼要更多時間跟臺灣來談，因為我的……在於供應鏈……"],["黃委員健豪：就是因為這樣，我要拜託我們談判代表，因為今天臺灣之所以有這麼大的貿易順差，是因為我們的半導體也好，我們的資通訊產業也好，確實賺很多錢。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們有這個產業的實力，但也因為美方對我高科技需求的成長，譬如說去年，像我們AI server的成長，其實也是美對我高科技需求的成長。"],["黃委員健豪：是啊！"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們也不斷的跟美方表達說，事實上，臺美供應鏈是互補合作的，臺灣的製造支持美國的研發創新，所以我們希望雙方未來能夠朝向互利、互惠的方式來進行。"],["黃委員健豪：講白話，其實我們的產業在地方上，我是來自臺中，有非常多的製造業跟傳產，大家心裡的苦是什麼？半導體賺這麼多錢，但是今天承擔苦果的是大家，就是所有中小企業、這些機械業、這些工具機業，大家一起承擔後果。所以我要代表民眾拜託談判代表，能不能分開處理？232條款、半導體產業鏈、資通訊業，美國確實有跟我們採購的需要，或是雙方的貿易需要合作，但是扣掉這一筆之後，我講真的，你把所謂的半導體、資通訊產業扣掉之後，我們整體的貿易並沒有想像中這麼高的順差，反而讓所有人來承擔，包含機械業、工具機產業。"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，我們就是後續趕快推進談判，然後在供應鏈合作有共識之後，我們就希望可以把對等關稅再降下來，讓相關的傳統產業能夠減緩現在面對相關的衝擊，這的確是我們談判小組最大的一個目標。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：在美國的逆差方面，我們有九成都來自這些半導體、資通訊產業。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也知道無論如何，對半導體之外的其他產業，包括中小企業，政府要用更大的產業支持來協助他們，但每個國家都有其工業的優勢，像您剛剛提到韓國在造船有優勢，我們在半導體有優勢，但我們要讓這個產業維持世界領先，對於其他的，我們要在這波的關稅、貿易秩序重整當中把它拉起來，讓它不要受到產業的衝擊，這是現在政府幾套方向在走、同時並行。"],["黃委員健豪：院長，請看這個數字，這是行政院今年4月4號提供的數字，我們電子資訊出口美國就占了792億，說真的，去年我們的順差也只有739億，光是扣掉電子資訊通訊業之後，其實我們是沒有順差的，今天這樣子的經濟成果說好是很好，但是今天因為有這個關稅的問題，我還是要再次強調，今天是所有產業、傳產、農業，大家一起來承擔這個苦果，所以在談判的過程裡面，我們希望能夠分開來處理。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以扣掉半導體，其他跟美國逆差的方面，我們用一些採購投資就已經可以達到平衡，我們也嘗試這樣表達過。"],["鄭副院長麗君：這個我們也都跟美方有表達。"],["卓院長榮泰：都這樣表達過。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對，現在的確因為美方也希望整體一起看待，所以現在就是最後一個關鍵的階段，我們希望一併把它磋商完畢。"],["黃委員健豪：好，最後剩2分鐘而已。面對現實，當然這個東西還在談判中，工具機產業或是機械業確實到現在為止造成很大的衝擊，我講坦白的，今天上午有些業者知道我要質詢，還特別打電話跟我說，過去臺灣機械兩大出口貿易對象，一個是美國，一個是中國，但去（2024）年因為ECFA所謂零關稅條件部分終止了，所以機械業去年受到重擊，很多人在去年布局的時候的確有轉去美國，但今年又受到美國的關稅影響，他們現在不知道怎麼辦。既然不知道怎麼辦，我要問的是政府有沒有什麼手段協助他們去尋找其他市場？第二個，萬一後續8月、9月、10月開始真的有失業率發生的時候，我們準備了什麼事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會幫助我們的產業到國外用聯合辦展覽的方式推銷我們的產品，另外我們會多元市場的開拓，比方說歐盟、比方說印度、比方說南向國家，另外我們會用臺灣品牌來加強臺灣產品在世界上的認同度，用優質的臺灣品牌來推出各項產品，我們希望這樣實質幫助，對於參展或是其他多元市場的開拓，我們在產業支持方案裡面都有實質預算來資助。"],["黃委員健豪：我們希望儘快，以臺中為例，我們必須講，從臺中出發，市府也先編列一筆讓很多業者去參展，所以自行車業者剛回來，至少在過去那一段時間，他們去歐洲參展，5天拿回了250萬美金的訂單。"],["鄭副院長麗君：是。"],["黃委員健豪：他們希望一年內大概會有450萬美金，這光臺中而已，其他地方當然還有，這是第一個部分，所以我們當然希望拓展其他國家的市場，我覺得可能是面對美國關稅所必須面對的現實，所以怎麼樣協助其他產業？剛剛我講的資通訊產業那個是另外一件事情，但是今天我們要顧的是傳產，它有更多的就業人口，可能有幾百萬就業人口，這部分我們要怎麼樣把它轉出去？這是第一個部分。","再來就是我看到方案裡面很多是針對貸款利率、貸款減息，但是要講，如果都已經沒有錢了，我覺得那不是貸款的問題了，而是要紓困，院長認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：針對金融支持，我們有多項金融支持。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["鄭副院長麗君：還有……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還有一些行政成本的降低，還有一些租稅的優惠，都同時展開。"],["黃委員健豪：我們希望能夠實質的幫助到產業，我剛剛提到，因為中小企業是我們的主力。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們跟產業座談，是希望了解我們哪裡不足，趕快能夠再補上來，所以請委員支持，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝院長、副院長。","下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163606","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163606","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc38cc14dbde948327c0ac07f6ba1e1b095f515782df94987374277e4527d10aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"14:30:52 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我們請我們的卓院長還有鄭副院長請卓院長還有鄭副院長嗎兩位請背謝謝李委員好"},{"start":26.851,"end":53.406,"text":"院長好 副院長好 辛苦了今天也是對於關稅的問題請教院長跟副院長我想請教一下在今年5月14號的時候美國的財政部長他有提到就是說我們跟台灣對於關稅的談判台灣有一個非常好的一個提案這是在5月14號的時候那時候"},{"start":54.554,"end":79.85,"text":"早出來的時候大家覺得說台灣不錯因為從4月初美國提出關稅之後32%大家嚇得心驚膽跳結果到5月10幾號的時候美國財政部長說台灣有提出一個很不錯的提案我們就相信說我們的行政團隊一定跟美國提出了一些很不錯的一些deal有可能關稅搞不好在5月中下去就有可能確定了這是5月中的事情"},{"start":80.939,"end":104.687,"text":"但是到了7月7號的時候美國財政部長貝森特他有提到他就說如果沒有跟美國來達成這個協議的話戒指關稅會反彈到4月2號川普那時候宣布的高額的關稅32%這兩個月不到的時間我想請問一下院長跟副院長這段時間裡面"},{"start":108.576,"end":116.549,"text":"對於關稅的談判有發生了什麼樣的一個變化是不是本來有覺得一個不錯的提案那美國也樂於接受"},{"start":117.918,"end":147.134,"text":"但是後來呢為什麼兩個月之後呢美國財政部長覺得說那如果沒有談完那有可能會到32%雖然我們最後是到20%左右那這個是院長或是副院長要來答覆謝謝委員的確我們在4月開始啟動談判其實經過四輪的實體談判跟十多次的視訊其實每一次的談判都有所進展那都保持正向的這個發展那我們談判的對口貿易代表署跟商務部"},{"start":147.874,"end":175.851,"text":"我們雙方都有進展對方也有速度表達其實我們有達到一定程度的共識不過您所說的在接近期限之前美方當時曾經因為本來是7月9號到期延到7月底希望在7月底之前大家也都希望各國都希望跟美國達成共識我方也希望跟美國達成deal但是最後的確雙方沒有能夠達成deal"},{"start":176.656,"end":198.303,"text":"也清楚的告訴我們其實是因為台灣的逆差結構裡面占有九成是來自半導體ICT而這部分連動的美國232正在調查中關稅政策未定那有些病壇對等跟232病壇的國家像日韓 歐盟他們涉及的232項目有汽車 有鋼等等"},{"start":198.863,"end":211.392,"text":"那這些相對的它的稅率是定的相對他們的項目比較單純台灣的聚焦在半導體跟ICT所以我們在五月初那時候談判的時候政府有把這個半導體還有我們資中訊產品一起納進來談所以那時候他講說這個"},{"start":213.874,"end":232.276,"text":"有非常好的提案是沒有包括這裡面嗎在這個提案裡面其實主要是我們有提出希望能夠平衡貿易逆差因為像大家都了解對等關稅談判的起源是因為貿易逆差台灣是美國第六大的逆差國所以我們也希望透過關稅非關稅貿易障礙以及採購等等相關的"},{"start":234.137,"end":259.043,"text":"所以說當時候美國的財政部長說這個非常好的提案裡面來平衡貿易逆差但是這些提案的是一個範疇那雙方談判會變動因為我們面對是個非傳統的一個經貿談判那美方也會每一次他都會提出他的要求那尤其他跟各國在談所以各國的談判的條件也會影響美方的要求的期待跟談判的進程"},{"start":259.503,"end":284.434,"text":"所以它是一個互相影響變動的進行過程當中來前進但是我必須要跟委員報告是說其實台美的談判是有階段性的進展因此從32來調整成20但是的確我們在逆差結構中涉及有一部分是屬於232調查的項目而在8月1號前當時美國的政策還未定所以台美必須要就這個供應鏈合作跟232的項目並談 一起談"},{"start":286.835,"end":301.031,"text":"那其他涉及232項目像日韓歐盟他們相對的項目有的是比較明確的已經有相關的稅率所以他們也是把對等跟232並談那有取得一定的成果所以我方後續"},{"start":301.792,"end":319.41,"text":"的目標就是對等跟232關稅一併談然後我們也要在最終觸及最終稅率的談判的時候來爭取不疊加那這三個目標我們已經都在最近的三次視訊會議當中有提出我方的要求跟表達那副院長最近還要再去美國嗎"},{"start":320.607,"end":333.657,"text":"我們大概最近8月1號以後有經過了三次視訊那我上午有提到我們最近一次就是上個禮拜五那我想我們當然任何可能性有利於談判的安排我們都會來積極努力"},{"start":334.245,"end":363.345,"text":"當然最終就是要朝著總結會議來所以接下來的這個關稅確定之前還會再去美國嗎還是用視訊就可以了我想應該是最後總結會議也一定應該要在美國來進行那我們也有表達我們隨時都可以去我知道院長給你一個空白的這個價單你隨時都可以去美國有需要就隨時去美國我們全力的支持團辦團隊積極的把我們的方案準備好隨時在雙方那個時間都能夠"},{"start":364.665,"end":384.698,"text":"談妥的時候我們就主動能夠去到美國跟他們談判所以我想我們就最後談判的進程我們每一次跟美方視訊都有就下一步以及後續的時程也要一併的持續的進行磋商那因為美方達成協議的方式也有很多那我們也希望說就這個部分來一併討論"},{"start":386.279,"end":396.787,"text":"同樣在8月中的時候這個一樣是美國財政部長被深特他提到關稅應如榮兵他預估在10月底之前完成多數的談判"},{"start":398.186,"end":423.642,"text":"他說這個像關稅跟冰塊一樣有可能融化最後呢有可能是降低甚至取消那我們有辦法有達到這個機會嗎我想這個Beson部長他的這個發言裡面很重要有一個時辰的一個訊息就是美方有提到說希望還沒有達成協議的國家在10月底前那我也想跟委員報告就是說7月31號美國公布的行政命令裡面"},{"start":424.422,"end":447.933,"text":"台灣是列在NX-1附入一的國家那裡面特別提到說以同意或接近與美國完成協議與安全貿易與安全協議在後續與美國完成協議並經總統發布命令載明協議條件之前適用現在這個稅率所以也就是說最後我們必須要談判然後達成協議然後再經由雙方公佈協議所達成的這個條件"},{"start":449.827,"end":472.88,"text":"那這樣就是可以完成這樣的談判來決定這個最終的稅率所以目前台灣就是處於一個上需要我們接近完成協議但需要來談後續完成協議並來發布相關協議的條件那你們有沒有預估在10月底或是更早譬如說現在已經快8月下旬了有沒有可能在9月的時候就完成這個關稅談判我想美方財政部長所說的是一個他們general的形成"},{"start":473.56,"end":494.069,"text":"當然以我方的看法我們應該是要越快越好有可能在這個期限之前九月就達成關稅的這個協定嗎這都是我們努力的目標因為我們知道有些產業他受到的衝擊比較大我想每一天對他們都是辛苦的那是有機會降到20%以下"},{"start":495.63,"end":522.105,"text":"我們現在20%是我看院長有在點頭啊努力啊我們的目標當然就是要努力我也知道啊 要努力到20%那我是說就你們現在談判的這個這個跟對方的這樣子談判的這個過程來講20%以下有沒有機會其實在7月31號我們在最後希望達成協議的過程當中跟美方也是有所溝通那也就是因為台灣有關於相關供應鏈的合作跟232要並談"},{"start":523.038,"end":546.077,"text":"所以我們希望後續對等232並談我們一併希望把對等關稅再降我們也同時爭取232的優惠目前大概我們的工具機模具 塑膠製品還有電子材料這一個受到關稅影響比較大因為我們主要競爭對手不論是韓國或是說德國甚至日本 越南 墨西哥等等他們有的關稅跟我們一樣但是在"},{"start":546.818,"end":575.06,"text":"工具機的方面的話我們明顯是受到影響我們的這個累加的關稅比起來就是會比主要競爭對手還要多那我現在主要在談因為剛有提到這個半導體這232的條款的這部分那目前當然因為台積電還有我們半導體有到美國去設廠我們就是關稅就是零那我想請問一下那接下來的這個談判過程當中我相信美國他們也可能需要或是說希望台灣的除了這一個"},{"start":576.18,"end":605.029,"text":"我們的半導體到美國去投資之外因為半導體它是整個產業鏈不是只有半導體還有上游中游下游在談判的過程當中有沒有可能就是說因為接下來因為它是先從半導體移到美國去設廠然後就給你零關稅接下來有可能會不會整個上中下游的產業鏈因為半導體已經過去了也會跟著一起過去美國去做投資如果這部分的話台灣有什麼樣的營運的一個方向"},{"start":605.925,"end":623.327,"text":"我想我們近期也積極的跟高科技產業界來座談那除了半導體產業也包括半導體上游材料設備廠物那以及這個下游AI Server跟以及相關EMS等產業來了解我國的這個企業目前在美投資佈局的情形"},{"start":623.817,"end":647.419,"text":"因為我們要立即於我們的產業佈局的現況以及他們未來的期待你現在不過去投資的話那未來他們就是給你關稅嘛對不對這個部分就是在我們這幾次的談判當中我們也努力要去了解美方在232關稅可能的走向那目前因為看到揭露的資訊相對有限所以我們有持續性的在了解他們可能的"},{"start":648.519,"end":671.324,"text":"因為談判過程當中就是像譬如說台積電去設廠了那就關稅就零那他當然我認為啦他希望說不是只有半導體過去他可能希望說整個產業鏈都能夠到美國去做投資那是跟委員報告在232調查的項目裡面除了半導體還有半導體設備那麼以及半導體衍生品那其實當時在對等關稅這個公布的時候"},{"start":674.145,"end":678.452,"text":"也有提到除了半導體半導體設備跟這個衍生品其實還有像"},{"start":680.068,"end":707.574,"text":"關鍵礦物 藥品 木材等等我的意思就是台灣是所以我們自動訊產業半導體這麼發達因為我們有產業鏈在台灣不論你是在竹科 中科 南科這個產業鏈是美國現在沒辦法去複製的但是如果萬一我們的半導體它要求我們去設廠那是不是未來有可能有可能說我們這些上中下游有可能也過去但是把這個當成是投資美國的一部分"},{"start":708.684,"end":715.238,"text":"那這樣子會不會讓美國覺得說那這些也到去美國去投資那在跟他們講關稅談判的時候有沒有更多的這個利基點在經濟部來談一下財力的狀況"},{"start":719.078,"end":744.605,"text":"跟委員報告基本上就是說整個AI產業鏈它是從上游到下游其實說AI晶片以外最重要的是伺服器因為我們台美之間最大的一個順差的來源大概就是伺服器還有顯示卡所以這個部分確實是整個如果要建構AI產業鏈的話確實是可能上中下游可能這些產業可能都有需要"},{"start":746.206,"end":773.263,"text":"會到美國去做一些投資當然現在產業工會他們也在有這樣的一些行動做一些準備所以我是回到4月初賴總統他所講的投資台灣投資美國對就是說我們要加碼投資美國形成台灣加一就是說藉由投資美國也帶動台灣的產業再次發展就是說"},{"start":774.904,"end":798.353,"text":"院長那時候有講過就是說美國要再次強大也讓台灣再次強大所以我剛才問說如果我們這些產業也到美國去投資的話那第一個他可能會要求因為不論是美國是韓國是日本他都要求你去做投資不論是日本的5500億或是說這個韓國3500億我相信他也會要求我們去做一些投資"},{"start":799.774,"end":813.472,"text":"這些投資就是我剛所講的是包含那些產業的投資不曉得是不是在這次的談判裡面也能夠當成是我們過去投資然後用這東西來降低關稅的一個談判的籌碼我跟委員講幾個原則第一個"},{"start":817.097,"end":839.936,"text":"產業耕留台灣尤其是高科技產業必須維持台灣現在關鍵領先地位這個政策政府跟民間業者都有共識所以一定要耕留台灣全球佈局以台灣加一的方式去同時最高科技領先在台灣地位研發在台灣這個原則都不會改變至於細節上我們跟美國怎麼談他希望我們怎麼去做投資"},{"start":840.516,"end":865.549,"text":"我想美國的確有他振興製造業這樣的一個目標尤其是AI跟這個半導體相關未來產業供應鏈不過我想談判雙方從台灣的立場我們希望談的是供應鏈的合作然後也是要有利於我國產業的一個國際的佈局所以在這樣的一個原則底下我們來跟美方來討論這個供應鏈的合作跟投資的"},{"start":866.729,"end":882.984,"text":"這個佈局因為過去雙方的產業高度互補他們研發創新我們有製造的優勢那我們的產業也已經到了這個正在擴大國際佈局的階段所以未來我們台灣加一站美國如何擴大投資佈局但同時達到雙方互利互補雙贏"},{"start":884.625,"end":913.495,"text":"的一個供應鏈的合作這是我們談判的目標也在此這樣的一個共同的戰略目標底下能夠來爭取更好的這個稅率對等稅率以及232優惠好謝謝副院長那我接下來這一題我請這個總裁央行總裁先過來一下因為現在除了關稅之外還有匯率那所以呢工具機的業者他就說是不是建議政府呢採取這個防禦性的匯率的這個調控這是一個那另外就是說"},{"start":916.939,"end":929.078,"text":"經濟學者普遍預期下半年度台灣的經濟成長可能會趨緩所以亞洲的主要一些銀行分別會採取降息的手段請問我們的央行會採取降息的手段嗎"},{"start":943.217,"end":970.276,"text":"對我知道那你這個預期就是說如果是上半年是不錯那下半年那如果說來到這種精神掌力都好不過的情況之下向期的結尾可能就不大了"},{"start":971.94,"end":973.002,"text":"好 謝謝 我們時間到謝謝李委員 謝謝院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（14時30分）江副院長，請卓院長及鄭副院長。"],["主席：卓院長、鄭副院長，請兩位備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：院長好、副院長好，辛苦了。"],["鄭副院長麗君：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：今天也是就關稅的問題請教院長及副院長，我想請教一下，今年5月14號美國的財政部長有提到跟臺灣的關稅談判，臺灣有一個非常好的提案，那是在5月14號的時候。那時候這個報導出來，大家覺得臺灣不錯，因為從美國4月初提出32%關稅後，大家嚇得心驚膽跳，結果到5月十幾號時，美國財政部長說臺灣有提出一個很不錯的提案，我們就相信我們行政團隊一定跟美國提出了一些很不錯的deal，關稅搞不好在5月中下旬就有可能確定了，這是5月中的事情。但是到了7月7號，一樣，美國財政部長貝森特有提到，如果沒有跟美國達成協議，屆時關稅會反彈到4月2號川普宣布的高額關稅32%。這不到兩個月的時間，我想請問一下院長跟副院長，這段時間裡面，我們對於關稅的談判發生了什麼樣的變化？是不是本來覺得有一個不錯的提案，美國也樂於接受，但是後來為什麼兩個月之後，美國財政部部長覺得如果沒有談完，有可能會到32%，雖然我們最後是20%左右，這個是院長或是副院長要來答復？"],["卓院長榮泰：請副院長來答復。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。"],["鄭副院長麗君：謝謝委員。的確我們在4月開始啟動談判，經過四輪的實體談判跟十多次的視訊，其實每一次的談判都有所進展，都保持正向的發展。我們談判的對口是貿易代表署跟商務部，雙方都有進展，對方也數度表達，其實我們有達到一定程度的共識。不過您所說的，在接近期限之前，美方當時曾經……因為本來是7月9號到期，延到7月底，在7月底之前，大家都希望、各國都希望跟美國達成共識，我方也希望跟美國達成deal，但是最後的確雙方沒有能夠達成deal。美方有清楚的告訴我們其實是因為臺灣的逆差結構裡面有九成是來自半導體、ICT，而這部分連動的美國232條款正在調查中，關稅政策未定，而有些對等跟232條款併談的國家，像日、韓、歐盟涉及的232項目有汽車、鋼等等，這些相對的稅率是定的，相對他們的項目比較單純，而臺灣的聚焦在半導體跟ICT，需要更多時間……"],["李委員坤城：所以我們在5月初談判沒有把半導體、資通訊產品一起納進來？那時候他講有非常好的提案，沒有包含在這裡面嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：這個提案裡面其實主要是我們有提出希望能夠平衡貿易逆差，大家都了解對等關稅談判的起源是因為貿易逆差，而臺灣是美國第六大的逆差國，所以我們也希望透過關稅、非關稅貿易障礙以及採購等等相關的提案、計畫來平衡貿易逆差。"],["李委員坤城：所以當時候美國的財政部長說這個非常好的提案裡面……"],["鄭副院長麗君：但這些提案是一個範疇，雙方談判會變動，因為我們面對的是一個非傳統的經貿談判，美方每一次都會提出他的要求，尤其他跟各國在談，各國的談判條件也會影響美方的要求、期待跟談判的進程，所以這是在一個互相影響變動的進行過程中前進。但我必須要跟委員報告的是，其實臺美談判是有階段性的進展，從32%調整成20%，的確我們在逆差結構中有一部分是涉及232調查的項目，在8月1號前，當時美國的政策還未定，所以臺美必須要就供應鏈合作跟232的項目併談，而其他涉及232項目，像日、韓、歐盟相對的項目有的比較明確，已經有相關的稅率，所以他們也是把對等跟232併談，有取得一定的成果。"],["李委員坤城：好。"],["鄭副院長麗君：所以我方後續的目標就是對等跟232關稅一併談，我們也要在最終觸及最終稅率談判時爭取不疊加，對於這3個目標，我們已經都在最近的3次視訊會議當中提出我方的要求跟表達。"],["李委員坤城：副院長最近還要再去美國嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們最近在8月2號以後有經過了3次視訊，我上午有提到，最近一次就是上個禮拜五。我想我們當然對於任何可能性、有利於談判的安排都會積極努力，最終就是要朝著總結會議來努力。"],["李委員坤城：接下來關稅確定之前還會再去美國嗎？還是用視訊就可以了？"],["鄭副院長麗君：沒有，我想最後總結會議應該要在美國進行，我們也有表達我們隨時都可以去，也隨時保持聯繫……"],["李委員坤城：我知道院長給你一個空白的假單，你隨時都可以去美國，有需要就隨時去美國。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們全力支持談判團隊，積極地把我們的方案準備好，在雙方時間都能夠談妥的時候，我們就隨時能夠主動去美國跟他們談判。"],["鄭副院長麗君：是，所以我想就最後談判的進程，我們每一次跟美方視訊都有就下一步以及後續的時程一併、持續的進行磋商。因為美方達成協議的方式有很多，我們也希望就這個部分一併討論。"],["李委員坤城：好，在8月中的時候，美國的財政部長貝森特提到：關稅應如融冰，他預估在10月底之前完成多數的談判，他說關稅跟冰塊一樣，有可能融化，最後有可能降低甚至取消，那我們有辦法達到這個機會嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：貝森特部長的發言裡面有一個很重要的時程訊息……"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["鄭副院長麗君：美方有提到，希望還沒有達成協議的國家在10月底前完成。我也想跟委員報告，7月31號美國公布的行政命令裡面，臺灣是列在「NX1附錄一」的國家，裡面特別提到，已同意或接近於美國完成貿易與安全協議，在後續與美國完成協議並經總統發布命令載明協議條件之前，適用現在這個稅率。也就是說，最後我們必須要談判，然後達成協議，再由雙方公布協議所達成的條件，這樣就可以完成談判，決定最終的稅率，所以目前臺灣就是處於一個尚需要……我們接近完成協議，但需要談後續完成協議並發布相關協議的條件。"],["李委員坤城：你們有沒有預估在10月底或是更早，現在已經快8月下旬了，有沒有可能在9月就完成這個關稅談判？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想美方財政部長所說的是一個general的行程，當然以我方的立場……"],["李委員坤城：就目前副院長……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們應該是要越快越好，因為我們也知道……"],["李委員坤城：有可能在這個期限之前，9月就達成關稅的協定嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：這都是我們努力的目標，因為我們知道有些產業受到的衝擊比較大，我想每一天對他們都是辛苦的，所以我們會繼續努力。"],["李委員坤城：有機會降到20%以下？"],["鄭副院長麗君：現在20%是暫訂的稅率……"],["李委員坤城：我看院長有在點頭啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：努力，努力爭取……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們的目標當然就是談……"],["李委員坤城：我也知道要努力到20%，我是說，就你們現在跟對方談判的過程來講，20%以下有沒有機會？"],["鄭副院長麗君：其實在7月31號，我們最後希望達成協議的過程當中，跟美方也有所溝通，因為臺灣相關供應鏈的合作跟232要併談，所以我們希望後續對等、232併談，我們一併希望把對等關稅再降，也同時爭取232的優惠。"],["李委員坤城：目前工具機、模具、塑膠製品還有電子材料受到關稅影響比較大，因為我們的主要競爭對手，不論是韓國或德國，甚至是日本、越南、墨西哥等等，他們有的關稅跟我們一樣，但就工具機方面來說，我們明顯受到影響！我們所累加的關稅，比起來就是會比主要競爭對手多！我現在主要想談的是半導體232條款，因為台積電有到美國設半導體廠，所以目前的關稅是零，我想請問在接下來的談判過程中，我相信美國也可能需要或希望臺灣除了半導體能到美國投資之外……其實半導體是整個產業鏈，所以不是只有半導體，還包括上游、中游、下游。在談判過程當中有沒有可能……因為他是先要求半導體移到美國設廠，就給零關稅，但接下來會不會要求整個上、中、下游的產業鏈也會跟著一起去美國投資？畢竟半導體已經過去了。就這部分來說，臺灣有什麼樣的因應方向？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們近期也積極跟科技產業界座談，除了半導體產業外，也包括半導體上游，如材料設備廠務以及下游的AI server及相關EMS等產業，以了解我國企業目前在美投資布局的情形。因為我們要立基於產業布局的現況以及他們未來的期待，然後……"],["李委員坤城：因為現在不過去投資的話，未來他們就是課你關稅，對不對？"],["鄭副院長麗君：這部分在這幾次談判當中，我們也努力想去了解美方對232關稅的可能走向。目前看到所揭露的資訊相對有限，不過我們仍持續性的在了解他們可能的關稅。"],["李委員坤城：談判過程當中，比如台積電已經去設廠了，所以關稅就是零，但我認為他希望的不是只有半導體過去，他可能希望整個產業鏈都能到美國去投資。"],["鄭副院長麗君：跟委員報告，在232調查的項目裡，除了半導體外，還有半導體設備以及半導體衍生品。其實當時在對等關稅公布時也有提到，除了半導體、半導體設備跟衍生品外，像關鍵礦物、藥品、木材等等……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思就是臺灣的資通訊、半導體產業之所以這麼發達，是因為我們有產業鏈在臺灣，不論是在竹科、中科或南科，而這個產業鏈是美國現在沒辦法複製的！如果他除了要求我們的半導體去設廠外，未來是不是有可能也要這些上、中、下游過去，並當成是投資美國的一部分？如果這些也到美國投資，那麼在跟他們談判關稅的時候會不會有更多的利基點？"],["卓院長榮泰：請經濟部談一下產業的狀況。"],["何次長晉滄：好。跟委員報告，基本上整個AI產業鏈從上游到下游，除了AI晶片以外，最重要的是伺服器，因為臺美之間最大的順差來源，大概就是伺服器還有顯示卡，所以要建構AI產業鏈，確實上、中、下游的相關產業都可能需要到美國投資。現在產業公會也有這樣的行動，正在做一些準備。"],["李委員坤城：所以回到4月初賴總統所講的，臺灣要加碼投資美國，形成臺灣+1，即藉由投資美國來帶動臺灣產業再次發展！院長那時候有講，美國要再次強大，也讓臺灣再次強大。所以我剛才才會問，如果我們這些產業也到美國投資的話，那麼第一個，他可能會要求……因為不論是韓國或日本，他都要求你去美國投資，不管是日本的5,500億或韓國2,500億。我相信他也會要求我們做一些投資，而這些投資就是我剛才所講的，包含那些產業的投資在內，不曉得在這次談判裡，能不能用我們過去投資的這些東西來成為降低關稅談判的籌碼？"],["卓院長榮泰：投資的部分我請副院長說明，我跟委員講幾個原則。第一個，產業根留臺灣，尤其高科技產業必須維持臺灣現在的關鍵領先地位政策，這點政府跟民間的業者都有共識，所以一定要根留臺灣！"],["李委員坤城：當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：至於全球布局，則以臺灣+1的方式去做，同時，讓臺灣在最高科技上居於領先地位、研發在臺灣，這些原則都不會改變。至於細節上，我們跟著美國要怎麼談？他希望我們怎麼去投資？由副院長來說明。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想美國的確有振興製造業這樣的目標，尤其是AI跟半導體相關未來產業供應鏈，不過我想談判雙方從臺灣的立場，我們希望談的是供應鏈的合作，然後也是要有利於我國產業的國際布局，所以在這樣的原則底下，我們來跟美方討論這個供應鏈的合作跟投資的布局。因為過去雙方的產業高度互補，他們研發創新而我們有製造的優勢，我們的產業也已經到了正在擴大國際布局的階段，所以未來臺灣+1在美國如何擴大投資布局，同時達到雙方互利、互補雙贏的供應鏈合作，這是我們談判的目標，也在這樣共同的戰略目標底下，能夠來爭取更好的稅率，對等稅率以及232優惠。"],["李委員坤城：OK，謝謝副院長。","接下來這一題，我請央行總裁先過來一下。現在除了關稅之外，還有匯率，所以工具機業者就建議政府是不是可以採取防禦性的匯率調控？這是一個；另外一個就是經濟學者普遍預期下半年度臺灣的經濟成長可能會趨緩，所以亞洲一些主要的銀行紛紛會採取降息的手段，請問央行會採取降息的手段嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上……"],["李委員坤城：沒關係，因為時間到了，請簡短回答。"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，今年我們的經濟成長率很好，我們的出口也都很好，到目前為止，我們的物價指數年增率也是低於2%，而要不要降息是要經過理監事會的討論，我們9月份有……"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道。當然你這些預期就是說，上半年確實是不錯，超過預期，但下半年呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們下半年的經濟成長率也達到2.3%，不錯。"],["李委員坤城：如果在經濟成長率都還不錯的情況之下，降息的機會可能就不大了？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個是由理監事會來討論。"],["李委員坤城：OK，謝謝副院長，也謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，時間到了。謝謝李委員，謝謝院長。","下一位請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163605","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163605","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc8c9e7b790171cb37c0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84aff5ff160f27f5ee205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"12:28:28 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數字 以及他寫出的那些條件很多都有所出入"},{"start":103.772,"end":125.132,"text":"所謂的出入就是這個數字不一樣而已但是談的過程談的裡面甚至於所謂美國說的貿易障礙台灣全面棄守了這是真的嗎有談貿易障礙但我們沒有全面棄守我們有談市場准入但不至於全面准入如果沒有全面棄守那當然是好事如果全面棄守你要不要負責任"},{"start":127.732,"end":141.025,"text":"是總統負責任還是您負責任還是談判的人要負責任好 我今天不是跟你談這則新聞我要講的是這一次的對等關稅可以說是動搖國本的大勢 對吧"},{"start":142.566,"end":160.322,"text":"我們必須要非常嚴肅非常認真的來討論所以今天才會安排這樣子的一個國事論壇以及我們的質詢特別一直到現在民進黨政府你們都一直都還沒有公布對等關稅最終的結果是什麼"},{"start":161.042,"end":175.435,"text":"還有我們怎麼樣兌買採購的金額還有我們到底會不會開放美國它所說的那些貿易障礙這些我們國人都不清楚所以我們是非常的焦慮我們回顧一下2017年的1月"},{"start":176.215,"end":195.028,"text":"川普他就任的第一任總統也就是2018年他就對中國大陸發動了關稅戰2021年的1月川普下台之後從此所謂的貿易關稅戰就成為了大家口中的流行名詞"},{"start":196.289,"end":224.86,"text":"一直到2023年川普他出馬競選第二任總統的時候他又公開的誓言說他要用關稅向全世界來宣戰所以其實呢川普他會用關稅發動貿易戰這都是大家知道的事情請問一下政府準備了什麼 前瞻了什麼尤其院長你還記得嗎公佈的前一個晚上你讓大家安心的睡覺"},{"start":226,"end":242.938,"text":"現在安心了沒有我們說我們都沒有睡覺我當然希望國人安心我們一直在努力請問一下你們努力了什麼錢佔了什麼能不能花一點小的時間來跟大家說我們在川普總統大選之前我們在行政院裡面就成立了最美的經貿小組"},{"start":244.87,"end":264.131,"text":"那你怎麼會讓我們安心睡覺呢然後第二天結果變成我們的關稅比日本跟韓國還高好啦 院長院長 不要在這邊再繼續回復我們知道的事情而且媒體都清楚知道這個過程大家心裡面都知道這十年來我也知道"},{"start":264.992,"end":283.599,"text":"台灣的經濟貿易一直在調整看一下從蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子裡面然後馬上就推出了新南向政策一直到賴清德總統上台之後他喊出了脫中入北其實講白了就是脫中入美我們看一下這個統計圖"},{"start":286.021,"end":302.773,"text":"這個統計圖呢它是從2015年到2024年兩岸貿易順差還有台美貿易順差的10年的比較圖看一下藍色的藍色的是兩岸貿易順差2015年是636.3億美元2024年是699.8億美元紅色的是台美貿易的順差2015年只有78.4億美元"},{"start":314.801,"end":343.082,"text":"到了2024年就增加到649億美元看起來你們嘴巴說的托中陳金平平的看這個數據入美呢卻是火紅的大躍進而蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放到同一個籃子我們很顯然蔡英文總那個賴清德他已經把大部分的雞蛋放到了美國這個大籃子喔而且今年上半年台美貿易的順差已經到了"},{"start":345.024,"end":357.041,"text":"552億美元預估全年將會破千億院長 請問您這算不算好的成績報告委員 其實從2017年開始全球就歷經這個供應鏈的重組"},{"start":358.863,"end":377.389,"text":"那台灣也在這個全球供應鏈存儲當中有所變化我再問你們這算不算好的成績副院長請你針對我的回答來回應就好了今天只有15分鐘的時間算不算好成績我們台美順差的這個成長來自於美國美國對我高科技的需求要成長"},{"start":381.11,"end":402.863,"text":"好還是不好我們對歐盟對新南向的國家也有持續的交戰你們不願意說好或不好就表示你們內心清楚知道其實我們的政府眼光非常的短淺為什麼 因為就是因為這樣我們賺了美國太多的錢了所以川普現在對我們動手"},{"start":404.684,"end":430.298,"text":"這十年的投票我看到了兩個結論第一個結論是民進黨你們執政之後你們一心想要改變馬英九的親美友日和中的戰略你們想要拉開兩岸緊密的經貿關係而民進黨你們的說辭是因為兩岸經貿如果太緊密的話哪一天大陸如果突然取消對台讓利取消了ECFA之後大陸會發動所謂的窮台"},{"start":432.899,"end":443.443,"text":"現在看起來窮台的不是大陸窮台的是民進黨最親愛的美國是川普川普對台灣關稅的懲罰也勒索我們4000億的美元也連根拔走我們的台積電這恰恰戳破了民進黨你們說大陸會窮台的謊言"},{"start":457.148,"end":482.586,"text":"而我看到的第二個結論是2023年川普他競選第二任總統的時候他誓言就要向全世界用關稅來宣戰其中他五度的公開點名台灣賺走了美國的很多錢他還指控台灣偷走了美國的半導體請問院長您接受這個指控嗎"},{"start":483.646,"end":511.495,"text":"我們的半導體工業是我們自己在學習摸索你接受這個指控嗎不接受不接受好而這些恐嚇台灣的執政黨你們竟然毫無警覺今年對美貿易出操每個月就破紀錄而親美天美的代價是20%加N的疊加關稅必須要投資美國多少4000億美元這是你們的郭部長說的台積電也變成了美積電"},{"start":512.935,"end":531.561,"text":"院長啊 我們親美親到失去理智親美親到完全不設防現在我們就必須要付出這樣的代價而到目前為止真正的協議的內容為什麼要蓋牌是不是因為我們付不起這個代價"},{"start":532.281,"end":543.93,"text":"如果產業還繼續留在大陸 他們現在負擔會更大但是現在窮台的是誰現在窮台的是誰現在窮台的是誰現在要把台灣全窮殺隊的人是誰變成台灣成績是野光非常地長遠主席 請他們先停止好不好"},{"start":557.941,"end":581.08,"text":"我覺得今天的這兩位你們講的太多了而且一再的反覆現在聽我講台灣曾經眼光非常的長遠也創造了台灣的經濟奇蹟今天我要花一點時間跟你們兩個講真實的前瞻故事希望您還有副院長你們不要再打擾我也希望民進黨你們可以反省一下"},{"start":582.522,"end":600.339,"text":"1970年代初全球發生了石油危機台灣的油價暴漲物價也飛漲當時擔任行政院長的蔣經國他推動了十大建設因而擴大了台灣的內需市場為下一個階段的經濟發展奠定了非常穩定的基礎"},{"start":601.48,"end":622.529,"text":"当时这个十大建设是在内外非常艰困的经济环境之下从1973年一直到1979年我们花了大概7年的时间推动完成的总共的花费是1947亿相当于1975年当时我们政府的总预算的2.5倍"},{"start":624.389,"end":647.816,"text":"當時政府的資金也不足也借了外債今天我們回顧一下這段歷史我相信大家都會同意十大建設的經濟效益到現在仍然對台灣發揮著非常重大的影響我要講第二個前瞻是1970年代末李國鼎的政委他推動的科學園區"},{"start":648.976,"end":673.07,"text":"他找回了張周謀先生成立的台積電當時連美國IBM公司老闆都說李國鼎啊你瘋了啊這個為台積電籌出這麼樣的巨額的經費但是現在我們十幾年之後回頭看一下如果沒有趙三哲李國鼎如果沒有護國神山台積電"},{"start":674.111,"end":699.671,"text":"在那個經濟處於三次加工的年代裡面在那個我們國家財政根本都還沒有非常豐厚的年代這兩個非常有前瞻眼光的領導人他用投資台灣的具體行動把台灣帶起了經濟起飛的年代帶來了數十年的繁榮院長我想請問你你有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞"},{"start":701.232,"end":725.541,"text":"那剛剛你有沒有聽過世界檢疫這個名詞你都同意嗎我問你有沒有聽過世界檢疫這個名詞有沒有聽過世界檢疫這個名詞如果沒有的話我現在告訴你世界檢疫現在全世界都是在討論就是說全世界的貿易是百分之百而全世界跟美國的貿易只有佔13.6%"},{"start":727.862,"end":746.342,"text":"如果全世界我們不要了美國市場那麼還有86.4%的世界大市場我們為什麼要讓美國予取予求無盡的勒索我們如果拒絕川普的20%加n疊加的關稅我們拒絕跟美國貿易往來然後用川普勒索我們的4000億美金"},{"start":748.165,"end":761.184,"text":"投资我们自己的台湾投资我们的下一代发挥四五十年前台湾中小企业的精神那个就是拉着一卡皮箱全世界闯荡的做贸易做订单"},{"start":762.256,"end":789.872,"text":"那麼我們將會有世界簡易的聽好86.4%的大市場任由我們的企業家自由的揮灑而我們如果拒絕了美國我們還可以不要吃美國的毒豬毒牛我們的孩子也可以不要吃美國基改食品也不要進口美國的大米院長你不要跟我說你沒有你沒有聽過有人會這麼做我告訴你"},{"start":791.033,"end":817.288,"text":"巴西印度現在就是這麼做還有院長你千萬不要再說我以美論看一下我過去懷疑美國的所有事情現在川普都在做現在請兩位看一下這段影片And don't let some of these politicians go around saying you knowcause I'm telling you these countries are calling us up kissing my ass kissing my ass kissing my ass"},{"start":818.171,"end":831.031,"text":"川普笑你們這些親美的人排著對親他的那兩個字我都不好意思說了你不認為這是一個侮辱嗎院長這不是我們國家會做的事情這是不是一個侮辱"},{"start":833.058,"end":846.983,"text":"親美貼美是不是我們現在正在做的事情我們是一個主權獨立的國家我們有我們自己的財政能量既然是這樣你同不同意我說拒絕跟美國做生意因為我們有86.4%的全世界大市場美國只有占13.4%而已最後我要提醒院長最後我要提醒院長"},{"start":856.141,"end":874.949,"text":"美國公布台灣官會20%的時候呢我就主張這個協議必須要送到立法院來討論並且要經過公民覆決一直到現在這個時刻為止我都堅持這樣的主張你同意嗎"},{"start":876.001,"end":891.487,"text":"依照條約締結法我們將談判的結果送交國會審議通過這是必要的好 人民絕對是你們最好的後盾學韓國一樣好好利用人民的拒絕的聲音給你們做談判最後的基準"},{"start":892.927,"end":915.742,"text":"臺灣的經濟貿易的未來必須要由全民來決定聽好了不是由賴清德不是由您不是由副院長還有你們所謂的經貿小組也不是由民進黨政府來決定的臺灣的經貿的未來是要由全民來決定的謝謝謝謝高經貿委員"},{"start":923.002,"end":927.494,"text":"謝謝卓院長還有副院長抱怨會上午質詢到此為止"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1118,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（12時28分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，恭喜你留任！留任的原因你應該知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢言恭喜。"],["高金委員素梅：還有很多的事情是需要您解決的，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起來努力。"],["高金委員素梅：今天有非常多的委員問到，媒體的獨家新聞公布臺美談判的結果，對美投資4年是2,500億美元、對美採購4年是1,300億美元，而10年之內再加上1,700億美元，採購加上投資等於5,500億，這其中有3,800億在4年之內要執行完畢，1,700億在10年之內要執行完畢；另外，對於美國視為貿易障礙的項目，臺灣是全面棄守、開放全面進口。雖然行政院在4個小時之內對於這個獨家新聞說是傳播不實的訊息，干擾談判、造成誤導，請問一下院長，行政院對這個假新聞有沒有提告？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不輕易對媒體做提告，但我們……"],["高金委員素梅：所以裡面有一些是真的？還是全面是假的？"],["卓院長榮泰：有些敘述過程是真的，但是很多數字是不正確的，所以很多的……"],["高金委員素梅：所以裡面有些問題是真的談到了，只是數字不一樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然談判敘述的過程是對的，但內容、數字以及他寫出的那些條件，很多都有所出入，那行政院是這樣子，我們不輕易對媒體提告。"],["高金委員素梅：所謂的出入就是數字不一樣而已，但是談的過程、談的裡面，甚至於所謂美國說的貿易障礙，臺灣全面棄守了，這是真的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有談貿易障礙，但我們沒有全面棄守，我們有談市場准入，但不至於全面准入。"],["高金委員素梅：如果沒有全面棄守，那當然是好事，如果全面棄守，你要不要負責任？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然我們沒有全面棄守，我剛剛說……"],["高金委員素梅：是總統負責任，還是您負責任，還是談判的人要負責任？"],["卓院長榮泰：談判……"],["高金委員素梅：好，我今天不是跟你談這則新聞，我要講的是這一次的對等關稅可以說是動搖國本的大事，對吧？我們必須要非常嚴肅、非常認真的來討論，所以今天才會安排這樣子的國事論壇以及質詢，特別一直到現在，民進黨政府一直都還沒有公布對等關稅的最終結果是什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：還沒有談好……"],["高金委員素梅：還有我們對美採購的金額，還有我們到底會不會開放美國所說的那些貿易障礙，這些我們國人都不清楚，所以我們是非常的焦慮。","我們回顧一下2017年的1月，川普就任第一任總統，2018年他就對中國大陸發動了關稅戰，2021年的1月川普下臺之後，從此所謂的貿易關稅戰就成為了大家口中的流行名詞，一直到2023年川普出馬競選第二任總統的時候，他又公開的誓言說他要用關稅向全世界來宣戰，所以其實川普會用關稅發動貿易戰，這都是大家知道的事情。請問一下，政府準備了什麼？前瞻了什麼？尤其院長你還記得嗎？公布的前一個晚上，你讓大家安心的睡覺，現在安心了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說我們都沒有睡覺，我當然希望國人安心……"],["高金委員素梅：現在安心了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直在努力讓……"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下你們努力了什麼？前瞻了什麼？能不能花一點小的時間來跟大家說？"],["卓院長榮泰：在川普總統大選之前，我們在行政院裡面就成立了對美的經貿小組，在去年……"],["高金委員素梅：那你怎麼會讓我們安心睡覺呢？然後第二天結果變成我們的關稅比日本跟韓國還高？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，難道行政院是不想讓國人安心嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：好了，院長不要在這邊再繼續回復我們知道的事情，而且媒體都清楚知道，這個過程大家心裡面都知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院所有的努力都是希望國人安心……"],["高金委員素梅：這十年來，我也知道臺灣的經濟貿易一直在調整，看一下，從蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子裡面，然後馬上就推出了新南向政策，一直到賴清德總統上臺之後，他喊出了脫中入北，其實講白了，就是脫中入美，我們看一下這個統計圖，這個統計圖是從2015年到2024年的兩岸貿易順差還有臺美貿易順差的十年比較圖，看一下藍色的，藍色的是兩岸貿易順差，2015年是636.3億美元，2024年是699.8億美元，紅色的是臺美貿易的順差，2015年只有78.4億美元，到了2024年就增加到649億美元，看起來你們嘴巴說的脫中成績平平的，看這個數據，入美卻是火紅的大躍進，而蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放到同一個籃子，很顯然賴清德已經把大部分的雞蛋放到了美國這個大籃子，而且今年上半年臺美貿易的順差已經到了552億美元，預估全年將會破千億。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應該分析它的原因。"],["高金委員素梅：院長，請問您這算不算好的成績？"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，其實從2017年開始，全球就歷經供應鏈的重組，臺灣也在這個全球供應鏈重組當中有所變化……"],["高金委員素梅：我在問你們這個算不算好的成績？副院長，請你針對我的回答來回應就好了……"],["鄭副院長麗君：對，我現在正在回答……"],["高金委員素梅：今天只有15分鐘的時間，算不算好成績？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們臺美順差的成長來自於美國對我高科技需求的成長……"],["高金委員素梅：算不算好成績？好還是不好？好還是不好？好還是不好？"],["鄭副院長麗君：這是美國對我高科技產業需求的成長……"],["高金委員素梅：好還是不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對歐盟、新南向的國家也有持續的進展。"],["鄭副院長麗君：都在同步成長中。"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！你們不願意說好或不好……"],["鄭副院長麗君：都在同步成長中。"],["高金委員素梅：就表示你們內心清楚知道，其實我們政府眼光非常的短淺，為什麼？因為我們賺了美國太多的錢，所以川普現在對我們動手。"],["鄭副院長麗君：應該說臺灣的產業這幾年在國際的拓展、實力的延伸……"],["高金委員素梅：這十年的圖表我看到了兩個結論，第一個結論是民進黨執政之後，你們一心想要改變馬英九親美、友日、和中的戰略，你們想要拉開兩岸緊密的經貿關係，而民進黨的說詞是因為兩岸經貿如果太緊密的話，哪一天大陸如果突然取消對臺讓利，取消了ECFA之後，大陸會發動所謂的窮臺。現在看起來，窮臺的不是大陸喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的經濟成長持續往上升……"],["高金委員素梅：窮臺的是民進黨最親愛的美國、是川普……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們國家的GDP已經達到26兆以上，怎麼會說國家越來越窮呢？"],["高金委員素梅：川普對臺灣關稅的懲罰，也勒索我們4,000億的美元，也連根拔走我們的台積電，這恰恰戳破了民進黨說大陸會窮臺的謊言。我看到的第二個結論是，2023年川普競選第二任總統的時候，他誓言要用關稅向全世界來宣戰，其中他五度公開點名臺灣賺走了美國很多錢，他還指控臺灣偷走了美國的半導體。請問院長，您接受這個指控嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的半導體工業是我們自己在學習摸索……"],["高金委員素梅：你接受這個指控嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不接受。"],["高金委員素梅：不接受，好。而這些恐嚇，臺灣的執政黨竟然毫無警覺，今年對美貿易出超，每個月都破紀錄，而親美、貼美的代價是20%加N的疊加關稅，必須要投資美國4,000億美元，這是你們郭部長說的，台積電也變成了美積電……"],["卓院長榮泰：是因為產業從中國回到臺灣……"],["高金委員素梅：院長，我們親美親到失去理智……"],["卓院長榮泰：從中國回到臺灣的產業……"],["高金委員素梅：親美親到完全不設防……"],["卓院長榮泰：讓臺灣對美的出口增加。"],["高金委員素梅：現在我們就必須要付出這樣的代價，到目前為止，真正的協議內容為什麼要蓋牌？是不是因為我們付不起這個代價？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果產業還繼續留在大陸，他們現在的負擔會更大……"],["高金委員素梅：但現在窮臺的是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是回到臺灣之後，臺灣對美的……"],["高金委員素梅：現在窮臺的是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在臺灣沒有窮。"],["高金委員素梅：現在窮臺的是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣現在沒有窮。"],["高金委員素梅：現在要把臺灣的錢……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣現在沒有窮，我們沒有窮。"],["高金委員素梅：窮三代的人是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的GDP達到26兆以上，我們的經濟成長率也持續增加……"],["高金委員素梅：院長，臺灣曾經眼光非常的長遠……"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不理解哪一點臺灣窮？"],["鄭副院長麗君：隨著……"],["高金委員素梅：主席，請他們先停止，好不好？我覺得今天的兩位你們講的太多了，而且一再地反覆，現在聽我講。臺灣曾經眼光非常的長遠，也創造了臺灣的經濟奇蹟，今天我要花一點時間跟你們兩個講真實的前瞻故事，希望您還有副院長不要再打斷我，也希望民進黨可以反省一下。1970年代初，全球發生了石油危機，臺灣的油價暴漲，物價也飛漲，當時擔任行政院長的蔣經國推動了十大建設，因而擴大了臺灣的內需市場，為下一個階段的經濟發展奠定了非常穩定的基礎。當時這個十大建設是在內外非常艱困的經濟環境之下，從1973年一直到1979年，花了大概7年時間推動完成的，總共的花費是1,947億，相當於1975年政府總預算的2.5倍，當時政府的資金也不足，也借了外債。今天我們回顧一下這段歷史，我相信大家都會同意十大建設的經濟效益到現在仍然對臺灣發揮著非常重大的影響。","我要講第二個前瞻是1970年代末，李國鼎政委推動的科學園區，他找回了張忠謀先生成立了台積電，當時連美國IBM公司老闆都說，李國鼎你瘋了，為台積電籌出這麼樣巨額的經費。但是現在我們十幾年之後回頭看一下，如果沒有造山者李國鼎、如果沒有護國神山台積電，在那個經濟處於三次加工的年代裡面，在那個國家財政根本都還沒有非常豐厚的年代，這兩個非常有前瞻眼光的領導人，用投資臺灣的具體行動，帶起了臺灣經濟起飛的年代，帶來了數十年的繁榮。院長，我想請問你，你有沒有聽過「世界減一」這個名詞？"],["卓院長榮泰：誠如剛剛委員所說的，我請委員支持我們的AI新十大建設，也支持我們的矽光子、量子，還有無人機跟機器人。"],["高金委員素梅：我問你，有沒有聽過「世界減一」這個名詞？如果沒有的話，我現在告訴你，「世界減一」現在全世界都在討論，就是說全世界的貿易是100%，而美國的貿易只有占全世界的13.6%，如果我們不要美國市場了，那麼還有86.4%的世界大市場，我們為什麼要讓美國予取予求、無盡的勒索？","我們如果拒絕川普的20%+N疊加關稅，我們拒絕跟美國貿易往來，然後用川普勒索我們的4,000億美金來投資我們臺灣自己，投資我們的下一代，發揮四、五十年前臺灣中小企業的精神，就是拉著一卡皮箱，全世界闖蕩做貿易、做訂單，那麼你聽好，我們將會有「世界減一」86.4%的大市場，任由我們的企業家自由地揮灑。我們如果拒絕了美國，我們還可以不用吃美國的毒豬、毒牛，我們的孩子也可以不用吃美國的基改食品，也不用進口美國的大米。","院長，你不要跟我說你沒有聽過有人會這麼做，我告訴你，巴西、印度現在就是這麼做！還有院長，你千萬不要再說我「疑美論」，看一下我過去懷疑美國的所有事情，現在川普都在做。現在請兩位看一下這段影片。","（播放影片）"],["高金委員素梅：川普笑你們這些親美的人，排著隊親他的……那兩個字，我都不好意思說了，院長，你不認為這是一個侮辱嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是我們國家會做的事情。"],["高金委員素梅：這是不是一個侮辱？親美、貼美，是不是我們現在正在做的事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是，我們是一個主權獨立的國家，我們有我們自己的財政考量。"],["高金委員素梅：既然是這樣，你同不同意我說的，拒絕跟美國做生意？因為我們有86.4%的全世界大市場。"],["卓院長榮泰：美國是一個世界的大市場。"],["高金委員素梅：美國只有占13.6%而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，它是一個世界大市場，我們這裡講到很多的多元市場……"],["高金委員素梅：最後，我要提醒院長，美國公布臺灣關稅是20%的時候，我就主張這個協議必須要送到立法院來討論，並且要經過公民複決，一直到現在這個時刻為止，我都堅持這樣的主張，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照條約締結法，我們要將談判的結果送交國會審議通過，這是必要的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，人民絕對是你們最好的後盾，一樣學韓國，好好利用人民拒絕的聲音，給你們做談判最好的基準，臺灣經濟貿易的未來必須要由全民來決定。聽好了，不是由賴清德、不是由您、不是由副院長，還有你們所謂的經貿小組，也不是由民進黨政府來決定的，臺灣的經貿未來是要由全民來決定的，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：運作必須依照憲法跟法律的規定來執行。"],["主席：謝謝高金委員，也謝謝卓院長還有副院長。","報告院會，上午質詢到此為止，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行質詢。","現在休息。","休息（12時43分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc5c173a61662c33a5c0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84af7446958c994ab1495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:12:20 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我們請院長我們請卓院長備詢跟部長 農業部部長農業部部長備詢陳國元好院長好 部長好"},{"start":36.172,"end":57.305,"text":"院長我想其實剛才已經有多次確認過了不只在野黨跟執政黨的委員都有確認過最近有媒體他報導說可能會犧牲農業全面開放來去換取這個關稅的調整不過總統府跟行政機關都已經予以證實澄清沒有這件事情"},{"start":58.51,"end":77.859,"text":"但是我還是必須要確認一下我們目前的方案是沒有定案的至少在我剛才提到有很多各項的這些農產品但是我最重視的是像包含稻米還有雞跟豬目前都還沒有定案對吧目前雙方都提出一些方案但是"},{"start":78.769,"end":92.705,"text":"都還沒有達成協議所以這些方案的內容現在都沒有一樣是說已經到最後那樣達成協議的最後的這個所謂總結會議的這個答案出來所以也沒有到這個所謂的聯合聲明也沒有到總結會議的雙方的達成協議"},{"start":94.287,"end":121.744,"text":"但都在進行當中那剛才副院長也有提到說這個糧食安全國民健康是不能妥協的那特別是糧食安全這件事情特別還有我們中南部雲嘉南地區稻米是我們的主要的產值之一所以我們很希望這一個是很重要重中之重日本的這個經驗也值得我們學習就是這一次他們在稻米上面的相對的讓步造成他們的一些農民的民怨這點我們一定務必"},{"start":122.825,"end":148.562,"text":"要放在我們的考量範圍那我想現在的台美的貿易這個狀況其實是面臨雙重困局 多重挑戰首先就是農業你要犧牲農業來去成就中小企業嗎還是你要把中小企業的稅率把它降低就是這些關稅降低那去保護我們農業還是要用台積電來大量的投資換取兩個產業之間能夠更有競爭力但不管怎麼樣這些都是挑戰"},{"start":149.423,"end":177.103,"text":"可是對我們來說特別是總統有提到均衡台灣我們要重視的不是強勢產業而已比如說台積電的表現大家都知道它有它的這個重要的核心技術我們希望它留在台灣但是我們更不能夠忘記能夠承載著整個國家的糧食安全就在我們中南部就是我們的稻米就是包含我們的雞豬跟稻米這些重要的我們的食物的安全 糧食的安全所以我可以理解我們現在在談判的難處我們現在在談判中"},{"start":177.623,"end":204.536,"text":"但是我們必須要對所有的結果首先預先做好準備所以我們不可以等到說到時候協議簽署之後然後我們再倉促的先用發販補助金這種方式用這種最草率的方式我們現在就要把所有的預案先想好到時候才能夠選擇來去對農業最大的保障那我想請教一下現在在價格競爭力的這個嚴重銷售之下我們要怎麼樣系統性的來協助我們的中小企業"},{"start":205.416,"end":214.13,"text":"包含你剛之前我看跟其他委員沒有聽到的是擴大信保基金提供融資跟利息補貼等等金融工具之外還有什麼樣的方向"},{"start":215.609,"end":242.801,"text":"我們在農業跟工業各有我們先從中小企業這個特別是跟工具機產業相關的不知道部長有什麼想法中小企業除了我們原來有的中小企業的多元振興方案之外我們對於工業部門我們也會協助它金融的支持還有它一些財政相關稅務的成本的降低也協助它升級轉型等等這個都是在特別條例當中都有名列的"},{"start":243.791,"end":267.851,"text":"特別跟院長還有其他相關的官員來提醒就是我們有接到一些其實不只是中部甚至包含江南地區有一些工廠他們都有提到說把工具機扣件等關鍵產業的標準與法規的互相認證來提高讓我們這些檢驗合格的產品能夠更快速的進入美國市場不要去增加它重複檢驗的時間跟費用不少這部分有沒有什麼樣的回應"},{"start":270.037,"end":289.472,"text":"這個部分我想我們會照委員反映的民情這個部分我們會來處理好 這個盡量是快速因為如果我們在關稅在金額上面如果遇到挑戰的話至少我們在進入市場的速度上面我們至少要能夠快速的去反映再來就是我們必須要把價格競爭轉到品質的競爭"},{"start":294.716,"end":317.283,"text":"現在有沒有什麼具體計畫像是技術輔導團直接進駐產業聚落提供客製化的優化服務而不是只是提供貸款這方面有沒有什麼樣的相關的推動跟文報告其實現在我們跟法人一起來輔導我們這些工具機產業還有一些相關受衝擊的產業我們先用AI市產線的部分讓他們能夠整個產線它能夠升級轉型"},{"start":324.125,"end":351.382,"text":"那另外就是工具機他也可以開發一些相關AI相關的這個產品的這個升級這個部分我想這個都是我們希望把整個產業能夠讓他整個這個產品跟設備的這些附加價值率能夠提升的一個方法做一點補充有關中小企業多元有這個發展相關的貸款還有外銷貸款以外還有一個研發補助的部分就是協助企業的這個升級轉型"},{"start":352.472,"end":380.078,"text":"那這個每家企業最高五百萬產業聯盟一起申請四千萬裡面也包含的相關的這個太舊換新的設備擴大內需等我想這些經濟部其實我們在四月二號對等關稅公布的時候院長已經有責成我們提出一個完整的支持方案那後續也從八百八十億增加到九百三十億那現在任性條例裡面也希望未來再匡列兩百億來增加來強化產業的這個支持"},{"start":381.443,"end":394.774,"text":"尤其委員關心的衝擊比較大跟競爭國相對 關稅相對有劣勢的像工具機 機械等等或者是農業的一些項目我想各部會再給予個別個案的支持"},{"start":395.694,"end":423.354,"text":"好 謝謝副院長再來就是農業的部分剛才有提到的美國規模化低成本的農產品它直接長驅植入的部分想請教一下部長美國的地價米如果長驅植入的話它的國內的價格會受到影響現在的現行的公糧收購保價收購的制度我們是希望能夠持續下去而且要因應物價來做調整作為穩定市場的"},{"start":424.332,"end":441.851,"text":"最後一道防線除了被動收購之外行政院或農業部有沒有針對稻米產業升級的計畫例如全力支持我們的特色米種來進行品牌化的行銷還是效法日本月光米的模式將台灣米我們從主食"},{"start":442.572,"end":463.059,"text":"把它提升為精品這部分部長會給我們一些回應我跟委員說明就是有關於稻作的部分我們從今年年初推的稻作糧食安全升級方案現在的產地價都非常好業農民也非常開心所以稻米是一個糧食安全非常重要的產物所以也是我們必須要去守護的"},{"start":463.699,"end":482.711,"text":"雖然說美國在那邊有他的期待但是我們有我們要守護的所以這就必須要持續的溝通那現在談判還沒有結束我們一定會去守護我們最重要的糧食安全的一個產物我們會達到這樣的希望達到這樣的一個目標第二個部分就是您剛才講的很多美國產品進來以後會不會對國內的物價有影響"},{"start":485.453,"end":501.532,"text":"我要跟您報告就是不是所有的零關稅都非常可怕有一些產品是我們原物料的像黃小玉的部分如果他現在都零關稅零關稅進來以後對於我們飼料成本會降低對於我們產業反而是好的"},{"start":501.952,"end":524.859,"text":"那有一些產品本身它本身就是跟我們是我們本身生產非常少的那這一類的產品它其實是可以滿足我們的消費者的需求所以我們也做了非常多的這樣的分析那的確有一些產品是可能會到衝擊的那這些衝擊的部分我們也完成了衝擊分析也完成了一些後面的因應方案"},{"start":526.092,"end":547.939,"text":"所以部長我剛才提到就是講稻米那對於剛才你說到用的飼料用對畜牧產業的這些可能的爭議的地方我也希望未來能夠來清楚的跟民眾講想補充三點第一點就是農業敏感項目這個的確涉及糧食安全剛剛陳部長有說美方當然會期待市場開放不過有關最重要的糧食安全也是我方考量的一個"},{"start":548.599,"end":573.199,"text":"原則但是我們的確沒有辦法就每一項談因為如果我們談了是不是屆時影響最終談判的這個結果我們想要維護一個最好的一個結果這第一點那第二點如果是對我們有互補性的項目我想這個也許就是可以在這個考量的範圍那或者是我國是依賴進口的部分但進口部分在國家之間的替代這個也是也許是一種考量所以我們會綜合考量"},{"start":573.935,"end":601.946,"text":"整個我們的糧食安全跟產業利益來跟美方做相關的談判剛才副院長跟部長都有提到有一些互補性的比方說它能夠有效的把我們畜牧產業反而是有利的因為它可以壓低我們的進口的價格的那當然就是成為我們互相互利談判的一個基礎但是我剛才有提到一方面我提到精品把這個我們的稻米精品化但是我為什麼又提到工糧收購為什麼要提到要把價格的這個保證原因是因為同樣的農夫"},{"start":603.266,"end":629.807,"text":"同樣在做稻米的這些種植有一部分是最脆弱的我們比較老農對他們來講要精品化等等的話對他們來說的成本太大對我們來講我們與其要每一個產業走一百步我們希望每一個人都可以有機會來成長所以我為什麼還在持續的講說包含工糧收購 保價收購還需要因應物價來去調整我們要保護的就是這些老農這些我們可能在最脆弱的一環"},{"start":630.267,"end":655.001,"text":"所以它彼此之間是不矛盾的甚至是有互補的再來就是我們的畜牧產業剛才有提到包含特別是白肉雞這跟我們日常的生活飲食是息息相關未來美國會大量極度便宜的如果是進口的雞腿雞翅等等都切塊這些我們國內產業可能很難競爭我想請教一下部長你有什麼樣的方案"},{"start":656.277,"end":670.883,"text":"我跟委員報告白肉機的部分現在進口的白肉機的部分占差不多全台灣使用的35%那這35%其實幾乎百分之百都是由美國進來的所以美國已經有在進白肉機"},{"start":672.17,"end":700.977,"text":"另外一个就是白肉鸡进来的都是特殊部位的部分它跟国产鸡肉的消费的市场是不一样的所以后续我们在处理这一块的时候我们都是在不管是现在或未来我们一直希望说维护我们国内的产业它的市场的一个区隔性所以我们才能够去面对未来的任何的一个挑战所以后续的这些品牌后续的国内鸡肉的部分的一个市场的区隔我们会加强来努力"},{"start":701.616,"end":727.772,"text":"好那再來就是酪農的部分那其實之前有一陣子衛福部也在討論這件事情這個應該不會在這一次的關稅談判中裡面有包括在裡面吧所有的品項其實美國都有期待但是我們也有我們的要守護的部分部長我就宣誓性講一下因為這個事情兩三個月前我們好不容易有說服我們的這些酪農朋友請把他們的權益一定要放在"},{"start":729.649,"end":750.01,"text":"這個討論的裡面我強調這次我花很多的篇幅在強調農業的原因是因為我們都知道台積電是台灣的火車頭但是糧食安全國民的健康守護這些的就是農業所以我請農業部部長跟副院長能夠把這個事情不要把它納入最不重要的事情要把它納入最重要的事情的考量之一"},{"start":750.612,"end":764.714,"text":"接下來要針對政府對232條款的因應策略這個部分我先請教院長院長現在我們的輿論是主要是在焦點是20%的關稅有沒有機會爭取到調降或者是不疊加"},{"start":765.655,"end":788.093,"text":"但是這個前提可能是透過傳統的談判或者是擴大採購等等來去做討論可是這個232的情況比較複雜因為它是有國家安全的戰略的行動在考量在裡面它不是單純的降本求利而已它是在討論國家安全哪一項目它認為會影響到他們的國家安全所以如果編長我們也認同矽頓的概念跟單純的經濟關稅有差別的話"},{"start":790.734,"end":800.979,"text":"除了談判辦公室之外我們是要納入處理國家安全地緣政治層級的部會來去協助目前是有哪個單位在協助做這個部分的說服嗎"},{"start":802.867,"end":822.104,"text":"是談判的過程 參與談判的嗎我們除了經濟部 勞動部國家安全相關的有嗎我們有把國安系統的建議都把它拉進來有經濟部 國發會 財政部國安會這些都在我們談判小組我們希望這個在"},{"start":824.006,"end":840.608,"text":"232的部分他的談判他除了談判辦公室之外他必須是到國家安全層級的所以不是只是派員可能是要派相當有影響力的相當影響力的人物來去參與我們是整個政府整體一起決策一起參與"},{"start":842.306,"end":862.339,"text":"那再來就是也是跟國家安全相關因為月初這個華盛頓郵報或者是美方的媒體都有提到說這次的關稅談判是不是有涉及軍購或者是軍事安全等議題應該是有嗎沒有 談判沒有跟軍購相關沒有跟安全領域相關 目前都沒有"},{"start":863.87,"end":878.245,"text":"跟委員報告因為我方在談判過程也向美方表達說我國賴清德總統在20月的時候就已經正式公開對外來宣示我國未來國防預算要達到GDP3%"},{"start":880.187,"end":902.842,"text":"所以這是我方總統已經正式對外公開承諾所以雙方就這個部分沒有再進一步多做討論院長其實我是建議把安全的議題納入關稅當中因為剛才提到農業很多敏感的產業但是在安全的產業上面其實我們是需要更多更好的技術更多的裝備來去因應中國的威脅那這個部分同時是我們需要購買的"},{"start":904.263,"end":920.036,"text":"如果我們是把農業納進去那犧牲部分的農業它是有雙重衝擊的但是在安全領域上面特別是在商購上面當我們購買這些裝備 器具 技術人員的訓練等等它其實是有增加我國籌碼的幫助的"},{"start":921.257,"end":937.046,"text":"那特別是商購的部分我看之前國防部長有提到商購是不納入軍購裡面的計算的如果我們可以自己創造籌碼來增加讓我們農業有更多的機會的話我希望是可以做的軍購的部分當然就尊重國防部這邊的規劃我想國防部國安會會有規劃謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時12分）我們請院長。"],["主席：我們請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：跟農業部部長。"],["主席：農業部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長好、部長好。院長，其實剛才已經有多次確認過，不只在野黨跟執政黨的委員都有確認過，最近有媒體報導說可能會犧牲農業、全面開放去換取關稅的調整，不過總統府跟行政機關都已經予以證實、澄清沒有這件事情，但是我還是必須要確認一下，我們目前的方案是沒有定案的，至少在我……剛才提到有很多各項的這些農產品，但是我最重視的包含稻米還有雞跟豬，目前都還沒有定案對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前雙方都提出一些方案，但是都還沒有達成協議，所以這些方案的內容現在都沒有一樣是已經到達成協議，就是有最後所謂的總結會議的答案出來，所以也沒有到所謂的聯合聲明，也沒有到總結會議的雙方達成協議，都沒有。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，那院長這樣很好……"],["卓院長榮泰：但都在進行當中。"],["陳委員冠廷：進行中，剛才副院長也有提到糧食安全、國民健康是不能妥協的。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：特別是糧食安全這件事情，還有中南部雲嘉南地區，稻米是我們的主要產值之一，所以我們很希望……這個是很重要、重中之重，日本的經驗也值得我們學習，這一次他們在稻米上面的相對讓步，造成他們一些農民的民怨，這點一定務必要放在我們的考量範圍。我想現在臺美貿易這個狀況，其實是面臨雙重困局、多重挑戰，首先就是農業，你要犧牲農業來去成就中小企業嗎？還是你要把中小企業的稅率降低，就是這些關稅降低，去保護我們農業？還是要用台積電的大量投資換取兩個產業之間能夠更有競爭力？但不管怎麼樣，這些都是挑戰，可是對我們來說，特別是總統有提到均衡臺灣，我們要重視的不是強勢產業而已，也就是說台積電的表現大家都知道，它有它重要的核心技術，我們希望它留在臺灣。但是我們更不能夠忘記能夠承載著整個國家的糧食安全就在我們中南部，就是我們的稻米，就是包含雞、豬及稻米，這些重要食物的安全、糧食的安全。所以我可以理解我們現在談判的難處，我們現在還在談判中，但是我們必須要對所有的結果都預先做好準備，我們不可以等到時候協議簽署之後，然後再倉促的像用發放補助金這種方式，用這種最草率的方式，我們現在就要把所有的預案先想好，到時候才能夠對農業選擇最大的保障。","請教一下，現在在價格競爭力的嚴重削弱之下，要怎麼樣系統性的協助我們的中小企業？包含之前我跟其他委員們有提到擴大信保基金、提供融資及利息補貼等等金融工具之外，還有什麼樣的方向？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在農業跟工業各有……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們先從中小企業，特別是與工具機產業相關者，不知道部長有什麼樣的……"],["卓院長榮泰：中小企業，除了原來有的中小企業多元振興方案之外，對於工業部門，我們也會協助它金融的支持，還有一些財政相關稅務成本的降低，也協助它升級、轉型等等，這個都是在特別條例當中有明列的。"],["陳委員冠廷：特別跟院長，還有其他相關的官員提醒，就是我們有接到其實不只是中部，甚至包含嘉南地區有一些工廠他們都有提到，把工具機、扣件等關鍵產業的標準與法規的互相認證提高，讓這些檢驗合格的產品能夠更快速地進入美國市場，不要增加它重複檢驗的時間及費用，不曉得這部分有沒有什麼樣的回應？"],["何次長晉滄：這個部分我們會照委員所反映的民情部分，我們會來處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，這個儘量快速，因為如果我們在關稅金額上面遇到挑戰的話，在進入市場的速度上面，我們至少要能夠快速地反應。","再來就是我們必須要把價格競爭轉到品質的競爭，現在有沒有什麼具體計畫？像是技術輔導團直接進駐產業聚落提供客製化的優化服務，而不只是提供貸款，這方面有沒有什麼樣相關的推動？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實現在我們跟法人一起輔導這些工具機產業，還有一些相關受衝擊的產業，我們先用AI試產線的部分，讓他們整個產線能夠升級轉型。另外就是工具機，它也可以開發一些AI相關產品的升級，這個部分都是我們希望把整個產業其產品及設備的附加價值率能夠提升的方法。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["鄭副院長麗君：做一點補充，有關中小企業多元有發展相關的貸款，外銷貸款以外還有研發補助的部分，就是協助企業的升級轉型，每家企業最高500萬，產業聯盟一起申請是4,000萬，裡面也包含相關設備的汰舊換新、擴大內需等，我想這些經濟部……其實我們在4月2號對等關稅公布的時候，院長已經有責成我們提出一個完整的支持方案，後續也從880億增加到930億，現在韌性條例裡面也希望未來再匡列200億來增加、強化對產業的支持，尤其委員關心的，衝擊比較大、與競爭國關稅相對有劣勢的，像工具機、機械等等，或者是農業的一些項目，我想各部會會再給予個別個案的支持。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝副院長。再來就是農業的部分，剛才有提到美國規模化、低成本的農產品直接長驅直入的部分，想請教一下部長，美國的低價米如果長驅直入的話，它國內的價格會受到影響，現行的公糧保價收購制度，我們希望能夠持續下去，而且要因應物價來調整，作為穩定市場的最後一道防線。除了被動收購之外，行政院或農業部有沒有針對稻米產業升級的計畫，例如全力支持特色米種進行品牌化的行銷，還是效法日本月光米的模式，將臺灣米從主食提升為精品，這部分部長可不可以給我們一些回應？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，就是有關於稻作的部分，我們從今年年初推的糧食產業全面升級計畫，現在的產地價都非常好，農民也非常開心，稻米是糧食安全非常重要的一個產物，也是我們必須要去守護的，雖然美國有它的期待，但是我們有我們要守護的，所以這就必須要持續溝通，現在談判還沒有結束，我們一定會去守護我們最重要的糧食安全的產物，我們希望達到這樣的目標。","第二個部分就是您剛才講的，很多美國產品進來以後會不會對國內的物價有影響，我要跟您報告的就是，不是所有的零關稅都非常可怕，有一些產品是原物料，像黃小玉的部分，現在就零關稅了，零關稅進來以後，我們的飼料成本會降低，對我們的產業反而是好的，有一些產品是我們本身生產非常少的，這一類的產品其實是可以滿足我們消費者的需求。我們做了非常多這樣的分析，的確有一些產品是可能會有衝擊的，這些衝擊的部分，我們也完成了衝擊分析，也完成了後面的因應方案。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以部長，我剛才提到的就是稻米，剛才你說到用在飼料，對畜牧產業的這些可能爭議的地方，我也希望未來農業部能夠清楚地跟民眾講。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想補充三點，第一點就是農業敏感項目，這個的確涉及糧食安全，剛剛陳部長有說，美方當然會期待市場開放，不過攸關最重要的糧食安全，也是我方考量的一個原則，但是我們的確沒有辦法就每一項談，因為如果我們談了，是不是屆時影響最終的談判結果，我們想要維護一個最好的結果，這是第一點。第二點，如果是對我們有互補性的項目，我想這也許就在可以考量的範圍，或者我國是依賴進口的部分，進口部分在國家之間的替代，這也許也是一種考量，所以我們會綜合考量我們的糧食安全與產業利益，來跟美方做相關的談判。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才副院長跟部長都有提到有些互補性的，比方說它對我們的畜牧產業反而是有利的，因為可以壓低我們的進口價格，當然就成為我們互相互利談判的一個基礎。但是我剛才有提到，一方面我提到精品，把我們的稻米精品化，但是我為什麼又提到公糧收購，為什麼又提到保證價格？原因是同樣的農夫同樣在做這些稻米的種植，有一部分是最脆弱的，也就是老農的部分，對他們來講，要精品化等等，對他們來說成本太大；對我們來講，與其每一個產業都走一百步，我們希望每一個人都可以有機會成長。所以我為什麼還在持續地講說包含公糧收購、保價收購，還需要因應物價來調整？我們要保護的就是這些老農，這些可能是我們最脆弱的一環，所以彼此之間是不矛盾的，甚至是有互補的。","再來就是我們的畜牧產業，剛才有提到，特別是白肉雞，這跟我們日常的生活飲食是息息相關，未來美國會進來大量且極度便宜的雞肉產品，如果是進口的雞腿、雞翅等等，都有切塊，這些我們國內產業可能很難競爭。我想請教一下部長，你有什麼樣的方案？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在進口的白肉雞部分，差不多占全臺灣食用的35%，這35%中其實幾乎100%都是從美國進來的，所以已經有在進美國的白肉雞；另外一個就是白肉雞進來的都是特殊部位，跟國產雞肉的消費市場是不一樣的，所以後續我們在處理這一塊的時候，不管是現在或未來，我們一直希望能夠維護我們國內產業市場的區隔性，才能夠去面對未來的任何挑戰，所以後續國內的這些品牌、雞肉的市場區隔，我們會加強來努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。再來就是酪農的部分，其實之前有一陣子衛福部也在討論這件事情，這個應該不會包括在這一次的關稅談判中吧？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所有的品項其實美國都有期待，但如我們說的，我們也有我們要守護的部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，我就宣示性講一下，因為這個事情，兩、三個月前我們好不容易有說服我們的這些酪農朋友，請把他們的權益一定要放在討論的裡面，這次我花很多篇幅在強調農業的原因是，我們都知道台積電是臺灣的火車頭，但是糧食安全、國民的健康，守護這些的就是農業，所以我請農業部部長跟副院長將這件事情，不能把它納入最不重要的事情，要把它納入最重要的事情的考量之一。","接下來要針對政府對232條款的因應策略，關於這個部分我先請教院長，現在我們的輿論焦點主要是在20%關稅有沒有機會爭取到調降或者是不疊加，這個前提可能是透過傳統的談判或者是擴大採購等等來去做討論，可是這個232的情況比較複雜，因為它是有國家安全戰略行動的考量在裡面，不是單純的將本求利而已，這是在討論國家安全，他認為哪一些項目會影響到他們的國家安全。院長，我們也認同矽盾的概念，如果這跟單純的經濟關稅有差別的話，除了談判辦公室之外，我們要納入處理國家安全、地緣政治層級的部會來去協助，目前有哪個單位在協助做這部分的說服？"],["卓院長榮泰：是指在談判過程參與談判的嗎？"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了經濟部、勞動部……"],["陳委員冠廷：跟國家安全相關的有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有把國安系統的建議都納入……"],["鄭副院長麗君：國安會。"],["陳委員冠廷：國安會有進入嘛？"],["鄭副院長麗君：經濟部、國發會、財政部、國安會這些都在我們談判小組，那農業、衛福部都在……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們希望在232的部分，除了談判辦公室之外，它必須到國家安全層級，所以不是只是派員，可能是要派相當有影響力的人物來去參與……"],["鄭副院長麗君：國安會都有參與，我們是整個政府整體一起決策、一起參與。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，再來也是跟國家安全相關，因為月初華盛頓郵報或者是美方媒體都有提到，這次的關稅談判是不是有涉及軍購或者是軍事安全等議題？應該是有？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，談判沒有跟軍購相關。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒有跟軍購相關？沒有跟安全領域有相關？目前都沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：軍購沒有。"],["陳委員冠廷：商購是……剛才有講……"],["鄭副院長麗君：跟委員報告，因為我方在談判過程也向美方表達，我國賴清德總統在2月的時候就已經正式公開對外宣示，我國未來國防預算要達到GDP的3%，所以這是我方總統已經正式對外公開承諾，所以雙方就這個部分沒有再進一步多做討論。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長，其實我是建議把安全的議題納入關稅當中。"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為剛才提到農業、很多敏感的產業，但是在安全的產業上面，其實我們是需要更多更好的技術、更多的裝備來去因應中國的威脅，這個部分同時是我們需要購買的，如果我們把農業納進去，那犧牲部分的農業，它是有雙重衝擊的，但是在安全領域上面，特別是在商購上面，當我們購買這些裝備、器具、技術、人員的訓練等等，它其實會增加我國的籌碼，特別是商購的部分，我看之前國防部長有提到商購是不納入軍購裡面的計算，如果我們可以自己創造籌碼來讓我們農業有更多機會的話，我希望是可以做的。"],["鄭副院長麗君：跟委員報告，軍購的部分當然就尊重國防部這邊的規劃，我想國防部、國安會會有規劃，我們也向美方表達我方自我防衛的決心跟立場。"],["陳委員冠廷：商購的部分……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝院長、副院長。","下一位請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adcd5644b5e65600982c0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84af267846fbddf791135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:56:38 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他說跟事實有落差啦那我有兩個問題就教啦那賴慶哲總統雖然澄清可是就我自己辦公室台灣的農民漁民還是非常恐慌疑慮你知道為什麼嗎我告訴你為什麼"},{"start":164.402,"end":168.442,"text":"賴清德總有4月就先拋出了零關稅所以我要跟"},{"start":170.115,"end":195.941,"text":"當時在會議當中我也跟我們的院長就是尊尊的一個建議就是說君無戏言總統要慎言你拋一個零關稅不清不楚的後面的行政團隊要來收拾就會比較麻煩所以後遺症延續到現在當然你們說這個報導不正確可是人民會恐慌接下來我要請教你這個報導到底哪裡有與事實有落差我想要來救教一下"},{"start":196.761,"end":210.113,"text":"我剛有聽王定宇質詢他問美國整車免關稅有沒有在對美談判的範圍之內剛剛鄭麗君副院長你回答有嘛對不對有談判但還沒有最後對有在談判的範圍之內你有說有啦我想請問這個取消小麥關稅有沒有在你的談判範圍之內"},{"start":219.803,"end":232.692,"text":"報告委員你要對我公平一點你對王定宇很乾脆就說有剛剛我回答王委員是說我們在談判過程當中對關稅貿易障礙各項時間暫停 停一下沒關係 請繼續其實副院長你剛剛那一套你已經倒帶起碼十次了所以我也沒有時間聽你倒帶了我只問你有沒有"},{"start":248.052,"end":274.768,"text":"報告委員有關於關稅的部分我知道你不會回答你那個循環倒帶待會播影片就好了我們就於糧食安全的原則我們來寫章但是我必須跟委員說明時間暫停對於關稅的細節如果我們在這邊做完整的說明抱歉時間暫停我們請繼續好不好沒有我要說"},{"start":276.715,"end":293.604,"text":"我還是回到院長啦因為你那個倒帶已經到了起碼七八病我在坐在底下聽了很久這是核心的問題我現在要我現在要沒關係我不要在這地方卡住沒關係那我想請教那請問院長我就不問你了啦那我們副院長請回副院長請回"},{"start":294.973,"end":321.726,"text":"聽軍醫喜話 盧聽醫喜話是不是讓我非常煎藥 跟委員說明沒關係 你請回啦時間就不夠嘛你剛剛都不需要嘛 媒體一定會報導我要問院長我要問院長我們會基於糧食安全來跟美方協商你又倒帶一分鐘 兩分鐘 時間就結束搞了三分鐘你再跟我講這個好啦 我跟你講沒關係啦我知道你辛苦啦來 院長"},{"start":323.627,"end":350.033,"text":"你有辦法保證政府不會取消小麥的關稅嗎報告委員我剛說過國際的談判最後條件拿出來的時候才是達成協議你沒有辦法保證不是 我們對台灣的你沒有辦法保證嘛我如果這樣做這樣做這個結論不會不公平嗎王小玉本來我們就是在你就不能保證嘛來 下一題請問你你有辦法保證政府不會取消玉米的關稅"},{"start":351.82,"end":368.65,"text":"王小玉我們都同樣來看這是我們大眾的產品你還是沒辦法保證嘛來 第三個更重要喔你有沒有辦法保證政府不會取消稻米的關稅來 這剛好部長你剛好就上來了我們稻米跟美國一直有一些配額跟其他的會不會保證不會取消稻米的關稅嘛"},{"start":370.236,"end":398.441,"text":"我跟委員報告 您剛才講的黃小玉現在的關稅就是零因為他本身零關稅不可怕但是零關稅如果對我們全部唸完嘛我全部唸完啦小麥玉米稻米大豆乳製品肉類關稅水產品關稅蔬菜關稅水果關稅還有這些所謂的你們講的所謂的那個所謂的貿易障礙有沒有在對美談判的範疇之內 有沒有"},{"start":399.332,"end":421.663,"text":"我跟委員報告就是美方所提出來的有美方的期待但是我們也有我們的堅持我說嘛有我們的堅持所以針對糧食安全重要的這些品項我當然知道你會開始不肯回答這個問題但是我就是要這邊抗議啦為什麼王定宇講就那麼乾脆就講有羅志祥來問就轉了圈圈十八轉"},{"start":424.711,"end":446.661,"text":"黃委員是說我們有沒有談判 有 但是還沒有達到最終那你又跟我講有啊黃小玉 滷製品 肉類 水產品 蔬菜 水果再問一次有沒有 你剛就講有啊你問我的是小麥會不會影響到我們的農民黃小玉本來就零關稅 我不曉得這怎麼回事我要一個一個問嘛我問的是起碼12項啊"},{"start":451.476,"end":475.809,"text":"我要問的不只是關稅 包括所謂的你講的所謂的貿易的一些障礙啊理解 我們一直說不到最後的細節的時候好啦好啦 謝謝你啦 又轉了半天原則是在的 那幾項原則副院長說的都是核心的價值跟基本的原則來 蕩米影響的人是多少22萬人那請問我們還是要把這當作重中之重啊來 我想請問你"},{"start":477.608,"end":498.743,"text":"你可以保證政府過去從來沒有未來也絕對不會拿上述的農產品犧牲農民的權益作為對美關稅談判的籌碼嗎有沒有辦法保證我還是跟委員說明我們在跟美方談判美方有美方的期待我們也有我們的堅持所以在這個期待跟堅持之中就要做一個溝通謝謝部長你回答我都能預期"},{"start":499.977,"end":519.937,"text":"總而言之很簡單嘛我想國人都看得到嘛到現在為止你有沒有辦法保證啊我沒有怪你不能保證喔院長先抱歉喔我沒有怪你不能保證喔但是很明顯的今天你在當時的朝野協商會議對我的保證我到現在開始要懷疑這個效力到底有沒有還有沒有維持效力"},{"start":520.658,"end":547.52,"text":"那你知道現在兩面嘛現在美國對我國的產品加徵20%關稅你知道已經對讓蘭花、台灣雕、鬼頭刀這些外銷的農漁產品產生很大的危機嘛這點你總認同嘛 對不對所以我們用農業的產業支持跟金融支持來協助他們如果連產業都要被滅頂的話支持只是什麼只是亡羊補牢的唯末手段農業部是很努力而且確實的掌握這些狀況"},{"start":548.961,"end":576.249,"text":"蘭花業者直接說20%負擔不起農民業者說漁民說養殖成本要破產利潤快要為零當然我知道現在關稅裡面有難題可是我這邊民意代表反映我們人民的真實的哭聲這農漁民真實的哭聲所以為什麼前面我一直要問你總要讓大家知道我們政府到底有沒有把這些農漁民的權益包裹上談判桌連這一點"},{"start":577.967,"end":592.94,"text":"你們不肯回答但是我跟你講如果你的原則院長如果你原則一次都不肯回答我也沒話說我們會維護農運民運的基本權利你不要挑到另外一題我講的是個態度問題喔這態度問題就是如果你對我都不肯回答我也可以理解啦"},{"start":593.661,"end":609.001,"text":"但是不是啊對王定宇你們就回答啊我跟委員報告你講的蝴蝶蘭其實我們跟蝴蝶蘭在談非常多次他們都非常有信心持續的去進攻美國市場所以我們也非常有信心的去支持他我們的農民啊很有韌性啦"},{"start":609.878,"end":630.347,"text":"但是如果我們政府沒有當後盾有韌性也很辛苦來 又以稻米為例美國在跟各國談判都要求包括開放稻米的農產品進口那我們稻農也非常憂心台灣稻米受到衝擊如果說零關稅進口有些人就擔心國內的稻米會被全面擊潰這個擔心存在"},{"start":633.418,"end":654.392,"text":"我跟委員報告 我剛才已經說了 道米是我們糧食安全主要的項目它也是小農 我都還沒問你談判內容 我只問你這個擔心存不存在嘛沒有 所有的擔心跟衝擊都是應該的啊商利善就擔心啦 他說這是不可逆的破壞啦因為一旦衝擊啊 很簡單啊 你剛剛都講22.5萬的道農啊"},{"start":657.383,"end":682.141,"text":"影響人民就30萬的升級啊我到現在沒有對你們下什麼指導期沒對你有什麼我只希望你把這些人的聲音放在心中嘛我們絕對有考量到他的農民的人口數跟他產業的重要性好 我想請教來 院長川普政府公佈我們台灣的對等關稅稅率是20%加N嘛 對不對比日本跟韓國還要高嘛 15%高嘛"},{"start":685.315,"end":708.903,"text":"記有的關稅加上20%暫時性是如此暫時性那日本是15%沒有天花板那舉國震動所以賴總統就說這叫暫時性關稅我們確實是暫時性現在已經一個月快過去了就算從8月7號20%加N的關稅起效算起有兩個多禮拜了請問這暫時要暫時多久"},{"start":711.235,"end":724.954,"text":"所以剛剛副院長說了這一個月當中八月他引進了三次的視訊會議我們要的是結果啦對 每次都針對問題你講過程我問結果 你講過程結果什麼時候暫時可以結束結果現在還沒有確定發生一個月"},{"start":726.161,"end":751.102,"text":"可以嗎照美方的說法他的才是10月底至少那我們希望能夠如果說外面來講說因為那個美國跟中國大陸的那個貿易談判要到11月所以可能把台灣包進去可能要拖到11月後也有可能嘛我認為我們跟中國跟美國的談判真的好我要問你一個月還是半年千萬不要跟我講你的暫時暫時要賴清德卸任總不會吧"},{"start":752.405,"end":770.671,"text":"絕對不會暫時到賴清德卸任吧看美國也沒有那個耐性對啊那謝謝我謝謝我們院長給大家安心希望這個20加N不是暫時到賴清德卸任起碼你也給了我一個日期你給不了一年給不了半年給不了一個月給一個三年我這邊還是肯定你"},{"start":771.499,"end":797.89,"text":"但是你知道嗎?你知道何澈哭魚的成語典故嗎?有聽過這個成語典故嗎?莊子說的故事他說遇到澈澈積水一條快渴死的魚然後他跟他討說給我一升的水救命就莊子說沒問題沒問題你這是暫時狀態我回去引西江之水來你就得救了魚當場聽了就怒了等你把水引來我就變魚乾了"},{"start":799.326,"end":814.1,"text":"你懂我說這個故事的意思吧緩不濟急所以我們就在以緩濟急所以非常好非常好所以我跟你講為什麼要問這個戰死的問題就是你們的戰死可能是讓人家暫時停止呼吸到死"},{"start":815.221,"end":836.921,"text":"對產業而言是有這個風險的我們也知道盡快確定時間穩定當然啦你如果產業一直被扼殺就是有人受害所以拜託腳步加快好不好這個暫時你答應不會再賴清德總統卸任但至少我希望有更加加緊那最後我要想做一點結論我還是恭喜卓榮泰院長留任"},{"start":838.55,"end":861.265,"text":"那我要恭喜全台大罷免的鐵三角都留任了大罷免32比0大失敗收場柯建民口中去年總統大選一結束就在策劃罷免的鐵三角柯建民說那三個你總知道是哪三個吧就賴清德總統你跟柯建民啊那我想請問一句話你看這句話誰說的"},{"start":863.328,"end":882.217,"text":"雖然蔡英文總統已經辭去黨主席職務但難惜眾怒身為國家最高行政院長我難辭其咎為了肩負執政黨敗選的責任我必須要辭職負責這誰說的這誰說的就是他們幾位說的賴清德總統說的"},{"start":884.48,"end":904.406,"text":"2018年九合一大敗賴清德總統當時的院長說他難辭其咎啊 尖挑責任啊然後還要辭職負責啊當時被慰留但是他還是堅持就一個多月後他還是辭職下台我想請問卓議院長這次大罷免大失敗你有沒有覺得你難辭其咎啊"},{"start":905.595,"end":932.962,"text":"我已經跟總統表示過我應該負起政治責任那總統他知道政治責任應該那按照總統的慣例的話所以你任期只有剩一個多月囉這個意思嗎 總統當時建立的慣例啊我幫你複習因為我們還目前進行的事情很多他希望能夠把局勢穩定下來所以我們做重要人事的調整謝謝您 謝謝謝謝委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":936.727,"end":938.651,"text":"下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時56分）主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：請教院長，你知道在臺灣第一個拋出用零關稅來回應美國對等關稅風暴的官員是誰嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：零關稅當時我們提出……"],["羅委員智強：我說第一個提出來的是誰？"],["卓院長榮泰：很多人都有講過。"],["羅委員智強：第一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：在會議當中……"],["羅委員智強：第一個，我是說公開提出來的第一個，我知道你們不敢講。"],["卓院長榮泰：我不曉得委員聽到的是什麼時間。"],["羅委員智強：就是賴清德總統。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是在討論當中提到……"],["羅委員智強：今年4月6日賴清德總統對於美國的對等關稅，他說他有對策，就是臺美從零關稅開始談起。他是第一個在公開場合丟出來的，當時立刻引發農民團體抗議，那時候你是不是邀請了包括我在內的三黨黨團幹部來會談，記得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：對。我想請問你在會中對我們保證了什麼事情，你還記不記得？"],["卓院長榮泰：有一些敏感的品項，不會傷害到我們的產業，尤其對農民、漁民，我們會列為優先要保護的對象。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯，你就是跟我承諾一定會保護我們臺灣的農民跟漁民，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問，這個保證是不是到現在還是有效？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直用這個原則進行談判。"],["羅委員智強：我們看到風傳媒的獨家報導，我國8月初回應華府細節，保證美國商品全面市場開放，其中包括取消小麥、玉米、大豆、乳製品、肉類與水產品、蔬菜和水果、汽車及相關產品、化學品、化妝品、醫療器械、藥品、機械的關稅。你有看到這段新聞嗎？有啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經針對其中有相當的數據以及沒有查證表示否認，也希望以後我們會加強……"],["羅委員智強：賴總統有澄清說這跟事實有落差，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，有澄清。"],["羅委員智強：對，他有澄清說跟事實有落差。我有兩個問題就教，賴清德總統雖然澄清，可是就我自己辦公室的了解，臺灣的農民、漁民還是非常恐慌、疑慮，你知道為什麼嗎？我告訴你為什麼，因為賴清德總統4月就先拋出了零關稅嘛，在會議當時我也跟我們院長諄諄地建議，就是君無戲言，總統要慎言，拋一個零關稅，不清不楚的，後面行政團隊要來收拾就會比較麻煩，所以後遺症延續到現在，當然你們說這個報導不正確，可是人民會恐慌啊！","接下來我要請教，這個報導到底哪裡與事實有落差？我想要來就教一下，我剛剛有聽王定宇質詢，他問美國整車免關稅有沒有在對美談判範圍之內，剛剛鄭麗君副院長回答有，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：有談判，但還沒有最後……"],["羅委員智強：有在談判的範圍之內，你有說有啦。我想請問取消小麥關稅有沒有在你的談判範疇之內？"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員……"],["羅委員智強：你要對我公平一點，你對王定宇很乾脆就說有。"],["鄭副院長麗君：剛剛我回答王委員的是，我們在談判過程當中……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！你剛剛講的那套，我已經聽了……"],["鄭副院長麗君：對於關稅、貿易障礙各項……"],["羅委員智強：停一下，時間暫停！時間暫停！沒關係，請繼續，其實副院長，你剛剛那一套，你已經倒帶起碼10次了，所以我也沒有時間聽你倒帶，我只問你有沒有？"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，有關於關稅的部分……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我知道你不會回答我……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們對於糧食……"],["羅委員智強：你又要開始循環倒帶，待會播影片就好。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們對於糧食安全的原則來協商……"],["羅委員智強：聽君一席話，如聽一席話。"],["鄭副院長麗君：但是我必須跟委員說明，就是……"],["羅委員智強：時間暫停！主席，時間暫停……"],["鄭副院長麗君：對於關稅的細節，如果我們在這邊做完整的說明……"],["羅委員智強：主席，抱歉，時間暫停！"],["主席：我們請繼續，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：我還是回到院長，因為你那個倒帶已經倒了起碼7、8遍，我坐在底下聽了很久……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是核心的問題。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我現在要……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係！我不要在這個地方卡住，沒關係！我想請教院長，我就不問副院長了，副院長請回。聽君一席話，如聽一席話……"],["鄭副院長麗君：是不是讓我非常簡要跟委員說明……"],["羅委員智強：請回，沒關係，你請回，時間就不夠嘛！"],["鄭副院長麗君：好，謝謝委員的問題……"],["羅委員智強：不需要嘛！媒體一定會報導……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我現在正要回答委員關心的農產品的項目……"],["羅委員智強：我要問院長……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們會基於糧食安全來跟美方協商……"],["主席：就尊重委員。"],["羅委員智強：你又回來！你又倒帶！你一直倒帶，倒帶1分鐘、2分鐘，時間就結束，搞了3分鐘，你再跟我講這個！好啦！我跟你講沒關係，我知道你辛苦了。","院長，你有辦法保證政府不會取消小麥的關稅嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我剛剛說過，國際的談判……"],["羅委員智強：沒有辦法保證？"],["卓院長榮泰：最後條件拿出來的時候才是達成協議。"],["羅委員智強：你沒有辦法保證？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們對臺灣的包括黃小玉……"],["羅委員智強：沒有辦法保證，我如果這樣做這個結論不會不公平吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：黃小玉本來就是……"],["羅委員智強：你就不能保證嘛！下一題，請問你有沒有辦法保證政府不會取消玉米的關稅？"],["卓院長榮泰：黃小玉我們都同樣來看，這是我們的大宗產品……"],["羅委員智強：你還是沒辦法保證嘛！第三個更重要，你有沒有辦法保證政府不會取消稻米的關稅？"],["卓院長榮泰：稻米跟美國一直有一些配額和其他的配套措施。"],["羅委員智強：會不會保證不會取消稻米的關稅嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛才講的黃小玉，現在的關稅就是零，因為零關稅不可怕，但是零關稅如果對我們的幫助，它是一個原物料……"],["羅委員智強：等我全部唸完，小麥、玉米、稻米、大豆、乳製品、肉類關稅、水產品關稅、蔬菜關稅、水果關稅，還有這些所謂的貿易障礙，有沒有在對美談判的範疇之內？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，美方所提出來的有美方的期待，但是我們也有我們的堅持……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也有我們的堅持，針對糧食安全重要的這些品項，我們都會積極溝通。"],["羅委員智強：我要跟院長講，我當然知道你會不肯回答這個問題，但是我就是要在這邊抗議，為什麼王定宇講的時候，你就那麼乾脆回答有，羅智強來問就轉了圈圈十八轉？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，王委員是問我們有沒有談判，有，但是還沒有達到最終……"],["羅委員智強：那你就跟我講有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是黃小玉都一樣，本來就是零關稅。"],["羅委員智強：黃小玉、乳製品、肉類、水產品、蔬菜、水果，我再問一次有沒有？你剛剛講有啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，你問我的是小麥會不會影響到我們的農民，黃小玉本來就零關稅，我不曉得這是怎麼一回事。"],["羅委員智強：我要一個一個問嘛！我不是一個，一個問完……"],["卓院長榮泰：它本來就是零關稅。"],["羅委員智強：我問的是起碼12項，我要問的不只是關稅，還有包括所謂的貿易障礙。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要請委員理解，我們一直說不到最後細節的時候，我們無法全盤……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！謝謝你，又轉了半天……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是原則是在的，副院長說的那幾項原則都是核心的價值跟基本的原則。"],["羅委員智強：稻米影響的人是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：22萬人。"],["羅委員智強：我們還是要把這當作重中之重，我想請問你，你可以保證政府過去從來沒有，未來也絕對不會拿上述的農產品，犧牲農民的權益，作為對美關稅談判的籌碼嗎？有沒有辦法保證？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是跟委員說明，我們在跟美方談判，美方有美方的期待，我們也有我們的堅持，所以在期待和堅持之中就要做溝通。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝部長，你的回答我都能預期。總而言之，很簡單嘛，我想國人都看得到，到現在為止你也沒辦法保證，我沒有怪你不能保證。院長，先抱歉，我沒有怪你不能保證喔！但是很明顯的，當時你在朝野協商會議對我的保證，我到現在要開始懷疑它還有沒有維持效力？你知道現在就兩面嘛，現在美國對我國的產品加徵20%關稅，已經讓蘭花、臺灣鯛、鬼頭刀等外銷農漁產品產生很大危機，這點你總認同吧，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們用農業的產業支持跟金融支持來協助他們，恢復正常的……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我跟你講，如果連產業都要被滅頂的話，支持只是什麼？只是亡羊補牢的微末手段。"],["卓院長榮泰：農業部是很努力，而且確切在掌握這些狀況。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝啦！蘭花業者直接說20%負擔不起，漁民說養殖成本要破產，利潤快要為零。當然我知道現在關稅你們有難題，可是民意代表反映的是人民真實的哭聲、農漁民真實的哭聲啊！所以為什麼前面我一直在問，你總要讓大家知道政府到底有沒有把農漁民的權益包裹上談判桌，連這一點你們都不肯回答？但是我跟你講，如果你的原則……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會維護……"],["羅委員智強：院長，如果你的原則是一字都不肯回答，我也沒話說。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會維護農漁民的基本權利。"],["羅委員智強：不是，你不要跳到另外一題，我講的是一個態度問題，態度問題就是如果你對我都不肯回答，我也可以理解啦！但是不是啊，對王定宇你們就回答啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，你講的蝴蝶蘭，其實我們跟蝴蝶蘭業者座談非常多次，他們都非常有信心持續地進攻美國市場，所以我們也非常有信心地支持他。"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我們的農民很有韌性，但是如果政府沒有當後盾，有韌性也很辛苦……"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對當他的後盾的。"],["羅委員智強：又以稻米為例，美國在跟各國談判都要求包括開放稻米的農產品進口，我們稻農也非常憂心臺灣稻米受到衝擊，如果是零關稅進口，有些人就擔心國內的稻米會被全面擊潰，這個擔心存在吧？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我剛才已經說……"],["羅委員智強：不存在嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我剛才跟你說了，稻米是我們糧食安全主要的項目，他也是小農，所以我們會持續溝通。"],["羅委員智強：我都還沒問你談判內容，我只問你這個擔心存不存在嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所有的擔心跟衝擊都是應該的啊！"],["羅委員智強：好啦！你不擔心，但張麗善就擔心，他說這是不可逆的破壞，因為一旦衝擊，很簡單啊！你剛剛都講22.5萬的稻農，影響人民就30萬的生計，我到現在沒有對你們下什麼指導棋，也沒對你們說什麼，我只希望你把這些人的聲音放在心中嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對有考量到農民的人口數跟產業的重要性。"],["羅委員智強：好，我想請教院長，川普政府公布臺灣的對等關稅稅率是20%加N，對不對？比日本跟韓國的15%還高嘛！這總是事實吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：既有的關稅加上20%，暫時性是如此。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛，暫時性嘛！日本是15%，沒有天花板，舉國震動，所以賴總統就說這叫暫時性關稅，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們確實是暫時性的，沒錯，還在談判中。"],["羅委員智強：很好，現在已經一個月快過去了，就算從8月7號20%加N的關稅起效算起，也有兩個多禮拜了，請問這個暫時要暫時多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以剛剛副院長說了這一個月當中，8月他已經進行三次視訊會議……"],["羅委員智強：我們要的是結果啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，每次都針對問題……"],["羅委員智強：我問結果，但你講過程，結果是什麼時候暫時可以結束？"],["卓院長榮泰：結果現在還沒有確定發生。"],["羅委員智強：一個月，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：照美方說法，他的財政部部長整個……"],["羅委員智強：至少到10月底，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：10月底，我們希望能夠越早……"],["羅委員智強：外界在講因為美國跟中國大陸的貿易談話要到11月，所以可能把臺灣包進去，可能要拖到11月後，也有可能嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為我們跟中國與美國的談判要分開來看。"],["羅委員智強：反正我要問你，是一個月還是半年？千萬不要跟我講你的暫時是到賴清德卸任，總不會吧？絕對不會暫時到賴清德卸任吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我看美國也沒有那個耐性。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我謝謝院長給大家安心，希望暫時的20%加N不是暫時到賴清德卸任，起碼你也給了我一個日期，你給不了一年、給不了半年、給不了一個月，但給一個三年，我這邊還是肯定你。但是你知道「涸轍枯魚」的成語典故嗎？有聽過這個成語典故嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：這是莊子說的故事，他說遇到車轍積水一條快渴死的魚，然後魚跟他討說給牠一升的水救命；結果莊子說沒問題、沒問題，你這只是暫時狀態，我回去引西江之水來，你就得救了。魚當場聽聞就怒了，等你把水引來，我就變魚乾了！你懂我說這故事的意思吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個緩不濟急。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在移緩濟急。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，所以我跟你講，為什麼要問這個暫時的問題？就是你們的暫時可能是讓人家暫時停止呼吸到死，對產業而言是有這個風險的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也知道儘快確定、事情穩定下來最好。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，當然啦，如果產業一直被扼殺，就是有人受害啦，所以拜託腳步加快好不好？這個暫時你已經答應不會到賴清德總統卸任，但至少我希望你們更要加緊。最後我要做一點結論，我還是恭喜卓榮泰院長留任，我要恭喜……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員支持跟指教。"],["羅委員智強：對，但我其實要恭喜全臺大罷免的鐵三角都留任了，大罷免32比0大失敗收場，柯建銘口中去年總統大選一結束就在策劃罷免的鐵三角，柯建銘說那3個你總知道是哪3個吧！就賴清德總統、你跟柯建銘。我想請問一句話，你看這句話誰說的，「雖然蔡英文總統已經辭去黨主席職務，但難息眾怒，身為國家最高行政院長，我難辭其咎，為了肩負執政黨敗選的責任，我必須要辭職負責」，這誰說的？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是他們幾位說的。"],["羅委員智強：賴清德總統說的，2018年九合一大敗，賴清德總統是當時的院長，說他難辭其咎、肩挑責任，然後他要辭職負責，當時被慰留，但是他還是堅持，就一個多月後他還是辭職下台了。我想請問卓院長，這次大罷免大失敗，你有沒有覺得你難辭其咎啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經跟總統表示過我應該負起政治責任，總統他知道政治責任應該……"],["羅委員智強：按照總統的慣例的話，所以你任期只剩一個多月囉！是這個意思嗎？總統當時奠定的慣例，我幫你複習。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們目前進行的事情很多……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！謝謝啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：他希望能夠把局勢穩定下來，所以我們做……"],["羅委員智強：還是恭喜你留任啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：重要人事的調整。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝您，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163602","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163602","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc88e3ad9a518d7ec9c0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84afee9170943cc9f2f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:40:22 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在場的委員先進列席政務機關首長 官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長以及國發會劉主委和財政部莊部長卓院長 還有劉主委 還有莊副主委副主委今天請假 今天是副主委副主委代理"},{"start":55.752,"end":79.406,"text":"總委員好 院長好 部長好 副主委好我的標題是產業退稅有需求 調配勞力有方法緩對等關稅衝擊 政府應盡速執行好 請教院長外傳我們財經首長都留任 顯然他們的表現得到肯定院長是不是支持會做事的格遠"},{"start":80.336,"end":108.912,"text":"我需要會做事的支持是的不只是肯定而且是需要而且會支持很好來我們來看一下就在一個星期前我上次問到了還稅給中小企業財政部主動出擊還記得嗎8月12號我請教過院長說這些受到美國關稅影響他的市場是因為是美國的他受到的關稅衝擊我們把他過去這個產業進口在台灣的關稅我們退還給他院長是全力支持嗎"},{"start":110.189,"end":136.73,"text":"謝謝委員當地有提出這樣的建議來好 那麼財政部也主動出席了嘛 對不對也開始去進行規劃了嘛 是不是 部長是 跟委員報告我們知道委員很關切這個問題我們也跟經濟部來聯繫對於相關這樣因為受到美國對等關稅政策影響而受到衝擊的產業以及廠商它的一個狀況那以什麼樣的方式來給他們支持好 那我現在也要考一考我們國發會這是副主委"},{"start":137.406,"end":160.875,"text":"其實我們要做這個政策呢國發也很重要你看我們要精準的找到受衝擊的企業首先這個產業他應該是以美國市場為主剛剛就說了而且呢他在他的主要競爭對手關稅又相對比我們低比如說不是所有的企業出口企業都是我們的對象是不是這樣我要找出他出口市場是美國為主的其次我們要把他跟"},{"start":161.837,"end":184.14,"text":"他的美國的他的主要對手美國對他的關稅是如何副主委是不是這樣子我們要盤點哪些產業受衝擊是不是應該從這兩個方法目前我們所有對受衝擊產業的一些支持其實基本上都是對著剛剛委員說的好那我們來看一下舉例來講大家都說工具機手工具水五金重電跟塑膠製品那我們來看一下"},{"start":184.841,"end":193.789,"text":"工具機我們對美關稅24%我們的主要對手德國日本韓國都是15%顯然的工具機受到嚴重衝擊 卓院長是不是這樣"},{"start":195.243,"end":218.803,"text":"這個在我們評估當中確實是把它列為衝擊性大的產業另外我們來看一下手工具我們雖然是23.3但是越南跟我們一樣主要競爭對手中國比我們還高可能手工具沒那麼嚴重再來看水五金我們是22.6越南也是22.6中國也是比我們高或許水五金的壓力沒那麼大重電我們是22越南是15中國是57比我們高一個比我們低我們可能有影響"},{"start":219.503,"end":246.229,"text":"塑膠製品我們的主要競爭對手是中國59可是墨西哥跟我們差不多所以從這樣的看法來看是不是像工具機這樣的產業是我們優先要幫助的對象尤其是如果高階的可能我們的競爭力會更弱一點如果中階的我們還有個很好的競爭力如果我們對手是德國日本以外的國家的話我相信我們的產品優越性一定是可以有辦法跟他競爭的"},{"start":246.854,"end":256.823,"text":"好謝謝副主委考試過關我們請經濟部次長來補來接下來我們要問到一下沖退原料稅的政府分工副主委可以請為我們請次長好"},{"start":261.79,"end":289.942,"text":"那麼莊部長之前呢我們要財政部來處理這個事情但是報告院長前面呢要有產業別要有產發所先告訴我們說是哪些產業受到影響然後這些產業要國貿署去抓出說他這幾年來銷售美國的需求量是多少然後鎖定這些廠商之後以公司別我們再請財政部官務署去計算這個公司為單位他過去"},{"start":291.002,"end":318.014,"text":"這三年五年甚至十年台灣的政府跟他扣了多少進口關稅是不是用這個方式才能夠趕快的把這個事情執行莊部長是不是這樣委員報告就是說對於受影響的廠商確實是如剛剛產業署跟國貿署我們會把他會提資料給我們至於是不是從這個關稅的部分來退或者是以其他補助或支持方案來做那這個部分我們後續會再來做處理"},{"start":319.008,"end":347.106,"text":"那現在進入到哪裡了是不是已經調查出來了這個部分跟我們報告一下我們在8月21號已經把相關的這些資訊已經給財政部那我想財政部他們現在正在核算當中總院長8月21號求在財政部這邊了財政部也說要等到大院我們行政院做出最後的決定所以請院長趕快決定你說權力支持資料在財政部這邊是不是趕快可以核定這樣的一個出口退稅的一個"},{"start":348.567,"end":363.582,"text":"請莊部長能夠請同仁能夠儘速的 詳實的來將內容與檢查如果符合到所有的條件 規則 標準的話那行政院依照支持產業的這樣的原則跟委員日前的建議我們全盤的來考量實施"},{"start":364.226,"end":382.237,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼莊部長請回我現在請農業部陳部長好 那麼繼續 卓院長我們剛剛說沖退原料稅以製造業為對象我們看到這個圖很清楚其實製造業大概在這一波受到衝擊最大的除了受到美國關稅影響我們是不是還可以看到"},{"start":383.037,"end":405.309,"text":"還會造成他減班勞動力的閒置我們來看一下我們看到報紙說每對台客20%的關稅中部產業有減單減班裁員那這裡訂單下滑減班休息的包括電子資訊產業包括運輸工具包括機械包括鋼鐵金屬經濟部次長是不是這樣子這些產業是可能會遇到減班休息的衝擊"},{"start":407.005,"end":433.413,"text":"好來那麼這種情況之下呢我要跟院長說那遇到的減班衝擊其實勞動部長要起來的其實我想他坐在台下我要誇獎他比較不會尷尬來製造業減班休息勞工生計怎麼辦我們看到了如果是本土勞工勞動部推出了強化雇用安定措施這也是過去疫情期間我們所說到的這幾個產業如果說原來的本土勞工他如果是月領4萬"},{"start":434.733,"end":454.102,"text":"他因為呢 減班休息他只能領最低工資28,590但是他這就念了薪資差額28,000跟40,000這差額的12,000勞動部呢 用目前的就業安定給他七成的補貼他可以補多少12,000的七成就是8,400院長支持勞動部這樣做吧"},{"start":454.861,"end":483.126,"text":"是勞動部一直這樣對於勞工安定就業一貫有的方式那我希望他徹底的去執行是的 為什麼沒有請勞動部長來起來因為他都做好了 都做對了所以就不勞他上來了好 但是外籍廠工沒有這個優待外籍廠工如果減班休息他最多就是領28,590元經濟部是不是這樣子是 你說了知道嗎那這樣會什麼情況呢這些外籍的移工廠工他可能會怎樣"},{"start":483.902,"end":508.971,"text":"他會因為他來台灣就要賺錢嘛他賺不到4萬塊賺不到3萬5只能領2萬8他就另外找地方去嘛好那另一方面這個勞動力他出現了一個不穩定但是反過來看我們看看移工會跟寶桃串聯落跑打工院長你知道什麼是寶桃嗎部長 寶石桃的人對寶石桃的人寶石桃你剛才說什麼叫做我們增開寶桃"},{"start":511.599,"end":534.927,"text":"有時候一些失聯的移工他會透過特定的人然後去安排他做一些事情你說的失聯的移工啦就是工廠 他進來工廠他不愛做啦他就漏跑啦 老闆把這些人扣扣的現在中部 南島在採茶 他就去搬茶葉茶葉搬完之後 他就要來 要來幫他種西瓜 幫他採 摘鳳梨"},{"start":536.786,"end":554.883,"text":"院長知道吧農務的這些移工有它的季節性跟收產的這個我們看到過去在2025年就是今年移工一到機場就整個被接走另外有的是怎樣在2018年甚至發生的整個都不見了好 那我們來看一下可是這些移工投入的這些產業"},{"start":556.144,"end":569.837,"text":"不只是農業可是農業有沒有需求部長你們可以告訴我們院長我們農業目前雖然有農業移工的作為但是實質上使用的移工都是合法引進的嗎"},{"start":571.389,"end":596.024,"text":"我跟委員報告就是謝謝勞動部的一個協助我們農業的移工大概有兩萬名然後合法的移工進來就是合配有兩萬名大概現在目前用了一萬六千多名那你覺得農業部門只有用合法的移工嗎不可諱言的還有部分的這些失聯的移工投入到農業領域做這些季節性的這些打工其實沒有失聯的移工也在打黑工啦"},{"start":596.929,"end":626.024,"text":"我們屏東農村喔 很多工廠喔他移工喔 下班之後呢 他要去打工啦我們 民房喔 在吃米啦米是歐 米農啦 米農都要摘去五六點不停耕 米多兩兩就去歐啦都是附近工廠 種植附近工廠的移工喔 他們就去五點五就去歐啊歐到七點五 早上吃菜 回去上班有的是晚上 下班後 再來拍工有的是白天禮拜再來拍工農業部部長 你知道這個情況嗎"},{"start":628.324,"end":649.054,"text":"為什麼這個情況一直存在著因為有需要我們往下看其實不只是災後的復原我們還往下看其實現在談的是全職轉廠跟就近兼差其實依照目前我們的勞動法令我這個廠商合法引進的移工只能夠使用我不能說我現在工廠停班休息 減班休息我就給別人用"},{"start":650.856,"end":669.926,"text":"市長你知道我不能因為我的產業我現在訂單少了嘛我引進的移工不適途者嘛我就稍後把人家去加班可以嗎 不可以產業是不可以的 為什麼因為你全職移轉未來會成什麼情況等到我訂單回來了我就要人借 覺得借的回來他就浪費了嘛"},{"start":670.606,"end":680.555,"text":"所以目前我們工業部門 製造部門最擔心什麼我減單休息之後 減班休息之後我的移工跑掉了等到我的訂單回來了 我要再訂車"},{"start":681.857,"end":706.442,"text":"正常的時候 勞動部也要給他啊但是這裡已經漏跑的這個移工他就轉入黑市變成是台灣我們撒不掉 摸不掉的一個移工這是我們不希望的所以怎麼做呢其實如果說不要讓他整場移轉讓他就近兼差他就是附近的農場他沒有上班的時間 他去打工我請教一下 農家部長你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":707.955,"end":736.401,"text":"我們曾經就這個議題就正常的曾經問了幾個企業就是他們週休二是希望他們的員工休息如果他來打工的時候他們也擔心他們打工的時候如果太累的時候第二天上班可能會精神不濟這第一個第二個部分就是說如果要合法去做這些休息的話那相對的相關的規定也要做修正很好就是後面如果要合法的話就規定要修正為什麼我覺得農業部門可以這樣來做呢"},{"start":736.957,"end":749.236,"text":"因為他不是full time不是每天8小時的他是什麼 藍山的工程你一天來我一小時 兩小時 累輸加班不然就是你每個禮拜你不出去玩你來我們家幫我們弄一些做sheet"},{"start":750.489,"end":773.484,"text":"他因為農場的工作呢是零工有季節性有小規模有地點分散他很難申請完整的像工廠工人這樣的農業移工來做所以這種情況在我們往下看所以呢如果原僱主受到官司衝擊影響他減班休息你與其讓這些移工跑掉跑去其他沒有資格引進移工的工廠做非法的工作全職的移轉"},{"start":774.204,"end":789.464,"text":"不如你是不是讓他本來週休兩天週工作五天他現在週工作兩天另外的三天他可以透過一些機制到附近的農盲去幫忙院長你覺得這樣的方法有沒有一個可以考慮的評估"},{"start":791.949,"end":810.889,"text":"那個跟周委員報告因為確實這個移工如果要跨雇主或跨業來去工作那尤其是他本身他不是一個合意的解約的狀況的話這涉及到的制度上面的面向就比較因為勞動部現在我要打斷就是勞動部他的思維還是製造業工業的思維"},{"start":812.11,"end":828.601,"text":"農業要請全職的移工的需求量不高除非你是農場、牧場我請五個、我請四個我整天一年三百六十五天都需要很多是季節性的所以為什麼農業移工不太好用但是這種兼差來打工的很好他有沒有轉移雇主 沒有"},{"start":829.461,"end":856.619,"text":"僱主還是原來工廠的僱主僱主同意之下他到鄰近的去兼差打工這個是有討論空間的而且如果你不給他一個合法的管道他就只能繞跑直接去打黑工這反而不是我們樂見的我現在已經請農業部去評估是不是可以用農會來出面農會過去是扮演農業移工的引進單位但是農會不好用但是如果你說原僱主因為減班休息他的移工他還是讓大工"},{"start":857.64,"end":871.644,"text":"吃頭雞啊所有的負擔都工廠來負擔他現在去把旁邊的農場做一些洗頭是不是這個行政成本你這農場你要做分拓要什麼人來做農民沒辦法做行政要從農會來協助這個行政工程把這工廠因為用不到釋出的這個勞動力他要分拓保險費要分拓大學吃飯這個你構思你不是新的構思你建的這個農場你來分拓農會來衝動"},{"start":888.3,"end":911.127,"text":"農業部如果這個方法你們有沒有把握可以做到把這些停班 減班休息的工廠移工在他們休息的期間讓農業部門來做適當的使用你們有沒有辦法做好管理我跟委員報告現在農會的部分就有從事我們農業部門他是全職的農業移工 沒好用啦"},{"start":912.947,"end":915.169,"text":"所以你們要很清楚這我告訴院長最後我告訴你這問題這些法令是勞動部遇到的救護法的規範"},{"start":930.464,"end":954.744,"text":"他是原則禁止例外許可例外許可要行政部門開放再往下看全職移工沒有僱主轉換的問題只是原僱主同意他的移工去兼工兼差往下看那麼救福法的第7條這些條件都是可以去強化的所以最後的結論請院長承諾我們針對有需求的農業部門的需求我們用方法讓這些受產業衝擊的"},{"start":956.605,"end":960.489,"text":"義工可以趕快的去執行院長可不可以給個承諾來研究辦理"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":843,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時40分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請卓院長、國發會劉主委及財政部莊部長。"],["主席：國發會劉主委請假，今天是由副主委代理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、部長好、副主委好。我的標題是「產業退稅有需求，調配勞力有方法，緩對等關稅衝擊，政府應盡速執行」。請教院長，外傳財經首長都留任，顯然他們的表現得到肯定，院長是不是支持會做事的閣員？"],["卓院長榮泰：我需要會做事的成員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不只是肯定，而且是需要，而且會支持，很好。就在一個星期前，我上次問到了還稅給中小企業，財政部主動出擊，還記得嗎？8月12號我請教過院長，說這些受到美國關稅影響的廠商，因為他的市場是在美國的，他受到關稅衝擊，所以我們把過去這個產業在臺灣進口原料的關稅退還給他，院長是全力支持嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員當天提出這樣的建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，財政部也主動出擊了，對不對？也開始去進行規劃了，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，我們知道委員很關切這個問題，我們也跟經濟部聯繫，對於因為受到美國不對等關稅政策影響而受到衝擊的產業以及廠商的狀況，以什麼樣的方式來給他們支持……"],["鍾委員佳濱：了解，那我現在也要考一考國發會副主委，其實我們要做這個政策，國發會也很重要，你看我們要精準地找到受衝擊的企業，首先這個產業應該是以美國市場為主，我剛剛就說了，而且它的主要競爭對手關稅又相對比我們低，所以並不是所有出口企業都是我們的對象，是不是這樣？我們要找出出口市場是以美國為主的，其次我們要找出美國對其主要對手的關稅是如何，副主委，是不是這樣？我們要盤點哪些產業受衝擊，是不是應該用這兩個方法？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，目前我們所有對受衝擊產業的一些支持，其實基本上都是對準剛剛委員所說的那些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，舉例來講，大家都在說工具機、手工具、水五金、重電跟塑膠製品，那我們來看一下工具機，我們對美關稅24%，我們的主要對手包括德國、日本、韓國都是15%，顯然工具機受到嚴重衝擊，請問卓院長是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：在我們的評估當中，確實是把它列為衝擊性大的產業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外我們來看一下手工具，我們的稅率雖然是23.3%，但是越南跟我們一樣，主要競爭對手中國比我們還高，可能手工具的狀況沒那麼嚴重。再來看水五金，我們的稅率是22.6%，越南也是22.6%，中國則是比我們高，或許水五金的壓力沒那麼大。重電我們的稅率是22%，越南是15%，中國是57%，所以是一個比我們高、一個比我們低，對我們可能會有影響。再看到塑膠製品，雖然我們的主要競爭對手中國的稅率是59%，可是墨西哥跟我們差不多。從這樣的狀況來看，像工具機這樣的產業是不是我們優先要幫助的對象？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，尤其如果是高階的，可能我們的競爭力會更弱一點，如果中階的我們還有很好的競爭力，如果我們的對手是德國、日本以外的國家的話，我相信我們的產品優越性一定是有辦法跟他競爭的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝副主委考試過關，我們請經濟部次長來遞補，接下來我要問一下沖退原料稅的政府分工，副主委可以請回，我們請次長。","莊部長，之前我們要財政部來處理這件事情，但是我要報告院長，前面要有產業別，要由產發署先告訴我們是哪些產業受到影響，這些產業要由國貿署去抓出它這幾年來銷售美國的需求量是多少，然後鎖定這些廠商之後，以公司別，我們再請財政部關務署去計算，以這個公司為單位，過去這三年、五年，甚至十年，臺灣政府跟它扣了多少進口關稅，是不是用這個方式才能夠趕快把這個事情執行？莊部長，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：報告委員，對於受影響的廠商，確實是如剛剛所說，產業署跟國貿署會提資料給我們，至於是不是從關稅的部分退，或者是以其他補助或支持方案來做，這個部分我們後續會再來做處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。現在進入到哪裡了？是不是已經調查出來了？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分經濟部……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告一下，我們在8月21號已經把相關資訊給財政部，我想財政部他們現在正在核算當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：卓院長，8月21號球在財政部這邊了，財政部也說要等到行政院做出最後決定，所以請院長趕快決定，你說全力支持，資料在財政部這邊，是不是趕快可以核定這樣一個出口退稅的作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：請莊部長能夠請同仁儘速詳實地將內容檢查，如果符合所有條件、標準的話，行政院依照支持產業這樣的原則跟委員日前的建議，我們全盤來考量實施。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。莊部長，請回。現在請農業部陳部長。","卓院長，我們剛剛說沖退原料稅以製造業為對象，我們看到這個圖很清楚，其實製造業大概是在這一波受到衝擊最大的，除了受到美國關稅影響，我們是不是可以看到還會造成減班勞動力閒置，我們來看一下。我們看到報紙說，美對臺課20%關稅，中部產業憂減單、減班、裁員，這裡提到訂單下滑、減班休息的包括電子資訊產業、運輸工具、機械、鋼鐵金屬，經濟部次長，是不是這樣子？這些產業可能會遇到減班休息的衝擊？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在這種情況之下，我要跟院長說，遇到減班衝擊，勞動部長要起來了，其實他坐在臺下，我要誇獎他比較不會尷尬。製造業減班休息，勞工生計怎麼辦？我們看到了，如果是本土勞工，勞動部推出強化僱用安定措施，這也是過去疫情期間我們所說的，這幾個產業，如果是本土勞工原本是月領4萬，因為減班休息，他只能領最低工資2萬8,590元，這個2萬8,000元跟4萬元之間的薪資差額1萬2,000元，勞動部用目前的就業安定給予七成補貼，可以補多少？1萬2,000元的七成就是8,400元，院長支持勞動部這樣做吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是勞動部一向對於勞工安定就業一貫有的方式，我希望它澈底執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我為什麼沒有請勞動部長起來？因為他都做好了、都做對了，所以就不勞他上來了！但是外籍廠工沒有這個優待，外籍廠工如果減班休息，最多就是領28,590元，經濟部，是不是這樣子？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣會有什麼情況呢？這些外籍移工、廠工可能會怎樣？因為來臺灣就是要賺錢，他賺不到4萬塊、賺不到3萬5，只能領2萬8，他就另外找地方去嘛！另一方面，勞動力就出現了一個不穩定。但是反過來我們看看，移工會跟「貿頭」串聯落跑打工，院長，你知道什麼是「貿頭」嗎？部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：「貿穡頭」的人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，「貿穡頭」的人，部長，你告訴院長什麼是我們鄉下的「貿頭」。"],["陳部長駿季：鄉下的「貿頭」就是有時候一些失聯的移工會透過特定的人安排他去做一些事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說的失聯的移工，就是他進去工廠，但他不要做，他就落跑了，「貿頭」就把這些人找一找，現在中部南投在採茶，他們就去採茶葉，茶葉採完再去哪裡種西瓜、哪裡栽鳳梨，院長知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是農務移工有它的季節性跟收成的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。所以我們看到在2025年，就是今年，移工一到機場就整個被接走，另外在2018年甚至發生整個旅行團都不見了。好，我們來看一下，這些移工投入的這些產業不只是農業，可是農業有沒有需求？部長，你能不能告訴我們院長，農業目前雖然有農業移工的作為，但是實質上使用的移工都是合法引進的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，謝謝勞動部的協助，我們農業移工大概有2萬名，然後合法的移工核配有2萬名，大概現在目前用了一萬六千多名。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業部門只有用合法的移工嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不可諱言的，還有部分的失聯移工投入農業領域，做季節性的打工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實沒有失聯的移工也在打黑工啦，我們屏東農村很多工廠移工下班之後還去打工，我們屏北在養鱉，鱉蛋都要早上五、六點天亮鱉剛下蛋之後就去挖，都是附近工廠的移工五點多去那邊挖了，挖到七點多吃完早餐才去上班，有的是晚上下班之後再來打工，有的是星期六、禮拜天再來打工，農業部部長，你知道這個情況嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼這個情況一直存在呢？因為有需要。我們往下看，其實不只是災後的復原，現在要談的是全職轉廠跟就近兼差，依照我們目前的勞動法令，廠商合法引進的移工只能我使用，不能說我現在工廠停班休息、減班休息，我就給別人用，院長，你知道吧？不能因為我的產業現在訂單少，我引進的移工沒工作做，就移給別人去加班，產業是不可以的，為什麼？因為全職移轉未來會產生什麼情況？等到我訂單回來了，我就要把人召回來，那時候召得回來嗎？他就逃跑了嘛。所以目前工業部門、製造部門最擔心什麼？我減單休息、減班休息之後，我的移工跑掉了，等到我的訂單回來了，我要重請，重請的時候，勞動部也要核給它，但是這些已經跑掉的移工就轉入黑市，變成是我們臺灣抓不到、摸不到的移工，這是我們不希望的。所以要怎麼做呢？就是不要讓他整廠移轉，讓他就近兼差，他沒上班的時間，就到附近的農場去打工，我請教一下農業部部長，你覺得這樣可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們曾經就這個議題問了幾個企業，就是周休二日他們希望他們的員工休息，如果他去打工，他們也擔心他如果太累，第二天上班可能會精神不濟，這是第一個；第二個部分就是如果要合法休息的話，那相對的相關規定也要做修正。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，是後面如果要合法的話，規定就要修正。為什麼我覺得農業部門可以這樣做呢？因為它不是full time，不是每天8小時的，而是零散的工作，你一天來我這邊一小時、兩小時，類似加班，不然就是星期六、星期天你沒出去玩，來我們這邊幫我們做事，因為農場的工作是零工，有季節性、小規模、地點分散的特性，很難申請完整的像工廠工人這樣的農業移工來做。在這種情況下，如果原雇主受到關稅衝擊影響減班休息，你與其讓這些移工跑掉，跑去其他沒有資格引進移工的工廠做非法的工作，全職移轉，不如讓他本來周休兩天、周工作五天，變成周工作兩天，另外的三天他可以透過一些機制到附近的農場去幫忙？院長，你覺得這樣的方法可不可以考慮評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復一下。"],["洪部長申翰：跟鍾委員報告，因為移工如果要跨雇主或跨業去工作，尤其他不是在合意解約的狀況下，這涉及到的制度上的面向就比較多了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我要打斷，就是勞動部的思維還是製造業、工業的思維，但是農業要請全職移工的需求量不高，除非是農場、牧場，養牛的、養豬的，一年365天都需要，但是很多是季節性的，所以這是為什麼農業移工不太好用，但是這種兼差來打工的很好，他有沒有轉移雇主？沒有，雇主還是原來工廠的雇主，在雇主同意之下，他到鄰近的農戶家兼差打工，這個是有討論空間的，而且如果你不給他一個合法的管道，他就只得落跑，直接去打黑工，這反而不是我們樂見的。我現在已經請農業部去評估是不是可以由農會來出面，農會過去是扮演農業移工的引進單位，但是農會不好用，你說原雇主減班休息，但是他的移工還是一樣住工廠、吃老闆的，所有的負擔都是工廠在承擔，移工現在去旁邊的農場做一些工作，是不是這些農場要幫忙分攤一些行政成本？要什麼人來做，農民沒辦法做行政，假如農會來協助這些行政工作，把這些工廠因為用不到而釋出的勞動力分派出去，要分攤的保險費、住宿、吃飯費用等讓兼差的這些農場來分攤，由農會來統籌。農業部如果用這個方法，你們有沒有把握可以做到把這些減班休息的工廠移工，在他們休息期間，讓農業部門來做適當地使用，你們有沒有辦法做好管理？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在農會部分就有從事我們農業部門……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是全職的農業移工……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不好用啦！你也知道不好用！移工都是來一、兩天的，農民種鳳梨他幫忙種鳳梨，鳳梨種完，你要送這些移工去哪裡，送去南投採茶葉嗎？所以你們要很清楚，我告訴院長最後的這些問題，這些法令是勞動部遇到的就服法規範，它是原則禁止，例外許可，例外許可要行政部門開放。全職移工沒有雇主轉換的問題，只是原雇主同意他的移工去兼差，就服法第七條的這些條件都是可以強化的。","所以最後結論請院長承諾，針對農業部門的需求，讓這些受產業衝擊的移工，有方法可以趕快地去執行，院長，可不可以承諾研議辦理？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請勞動部馬上去研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有農業部、經濟部。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc45fb46a5157afdabc0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84aff3c949769055490b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:24:26 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鄭副院長備詢陸委員好"},{"start":23.221,"end":37.768,"text":"院長好 副院長午安雖然說百分之二十的台美關稅在八月七號的時候就已經生效了可是基本上呢這是一個暫時性的這個稅率那整個談判過程都還在進行當中那剛剛"},{"start":38.928,"end":58.866,"text":"副院長或者是之前我有聽到就是美方這邊的報導說也許九月份或十月份我們就會有一個最終的這個結果那談判團隊也一直強調說我們會努力來爭取這個不疊加然後甚至呢比百分之二十還要低的這個稅率喔那既然這是一個還在進行當中的這個談判"},{"start":59.747,"end":82.938,"text":"那基於這個國際談判的原則都會簽署這個保密協議要等到整個談判有了最後的結果我們才能夠公布這個談判的細節可是我們看到在野的這個立委他根本是不顧國際談判的這個規範然後甚至誣導民眾說這整個談判其實是一個黑箱的作業那要求公開這個談判的內容"},{"start":84.099,"end":108.772,"text":"那除了今天的院會那本席呢發現在這之前有好幾個委員會其實已經開過超過十場以上的這個安排了這十場以上的這個相關的這個議程了所以要求這個談判團隊呢來做備詢所以委員會問不夠今天在院會還要再來加開再來詢問所以本席想請教啊這個就是一個非常普遍的一個問題我想請教院長副院長"},{"start":109.312,"end":116.143,"text":"如果我们片面公开这相关的细节的话对于我们这次或未来的国际谈判会有什么样不利的影响"},{"start":116.869,"end":140.412,"text":"談判的壓力我請副院長來答覆謝謝羅委員來還原事實上我們在歷次的實體談判之後都有發布新聞稿各部委員都到委員會備詢那的確現在因為有時間差因為許多國家達成協議那我方是還沒達成協議先從32降到20所以現在我們大家看到各國公佈的談判條件是因為他們跟美方達成協議"},{"start":141.633,"end":157.562,"text":"所以達成協議之後他們會由美方雙方公佈聯合聲明來羅列相關談判條件或由白宮來公佈事實文件來公佈這個談判條件或是由川普總統本人宣佈這個協議的相關的重點內容"},{"start":158.562,"end":173.491,"text":"所以我們看到各國公布這些內容都是在達成協議之後比較完整的說明裡面涉及的所有的談判條件所以我方現在因為還在談判中我們現在的稅率是一個階段性的稅率"},{"start":174.171,"end":195.008,"text":"所以屆時如果達成協議之後呢雙方也會先來公布相關的談判條件那之後完成了協議的簽署那麼我們依照條約締結法的這個第八條條約簽署之後呢報行政院就會來送國會來進行審議我想我們一切都是依照條約締結法依法來進行"},{"start":197.91,"end":225.019,"text":"這個過程的確我們現在還在繼續談判中但我們也了解產業社會需要更清楚的資訊所以我們也願意善盡說明的責任不管是來大院或是記者會或是我們已經跟產業界有許多的座談持續的來進行說明讓大家更了解我們在MFN加對等關稅20%受到的衝擊裡面政府可以來給予什麼樣的支持"},{"start":225.629,"end":242.309,"text":"尤其針對裡面衝擊比較大的像工具機 機械或蝴蝶籃 鬼頭刀等等這些衝擊較大而且對於競爭國而言相對它的稅率對競爭國產生比較競爭劣勢的特定的產業我想院長也有特地安排行程面對面的來聽取"},{"start":244.332,"end":260.219,"text":"聽聽業者的聲音那我們行政院會再給予特別的支持我想在這個過程當中我們全力支持但是我們談判團隊包含跨部會在內我們一定全力努力持續以越快速度越好來持續推進談判爭取最後的總結會議來完成這個協議"},{"start":263.385,"end":286.341,"text":"所以我們其實一直都是按照這個國際規範在走一定要等一定有一個定案之後我們才能夠公開相關的細節我想全世界都是如此那有沒有哪個國家的這個國會議員會在談判當中一再要求這個行政團隊談判團隊把這個細節公開目前有嗎 目前看起來好像是沒有就只有台灣這麼做"},{"start":287.482,"end":308.863,"text":"美國這次跟各國談判都簽有保密協議那當然我們為了尊重大院這個協議其實也是規範就是在談判過程當中相關的文件因為有許多的談判的議題其實在磋商中也許有共識但是最後在整體總結的時候會在整體進行最後的定案"},{"start":309.443,"end":328.824,"text":"那所以的確各國也都依照國際談判的慣例跟這個保密的協議相關在進行但是我們為了尊重大院也在大院機密會議的安排底下來出示相關的保密的會議那不過的確因為現在許多國家達成協議大家看到相關的談判條件也會想要了解我方"},{"start":329.504,"end":339.753,"text":"談判的情形我們充分的理解社會需要資訊國會需要資訊所以我們行政院在所有可能的範圍能夠公開說明的我們一定善盡說明的責任"},{"start":340.906,"end":364.713,"text":"好的 謝謝副院長的這個說明那再來就是說剛剛也有委員在關心就是前兩天有這個媒體以獨家報導的這個方式報導裡面特別還提到說是收到經濟部內部的資訊所以裡面還提及了談判的過程美國要求我方取消哪些商品品項的關稅甚至有提到我方對美投資方面的承諾等等"},{"start":365.713,"end":393.982,"text":"雖然後來我們行政院經貿工作小組有澄清說其實這是不實的報導也沒有跟我們這裡做過求證裡面的項目跟談判的內容是有所出入的可是媒體所提到的經濟部內部所提供的資訊到目前為止已經事情過了兩天了我們行政單位到底有沒有去了解是不是就是從經濟部裡面流出來的呢有了解過嗎"},{"start":396.554,"end":414.253,"text":"跟委員報告那經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼完全全面的資料那所以這個報導其實是不確實的確實可是他特別有提到是經濟部內部流出來的這個管道到底是誰是哪個單位這邊有去了解過嗎"},{"start":415.194,"end":437.38,"text":"是 我們也在瞭解中 還在瞭解當中所以到目前還不是很清楚到底怎麼回事但是很確實 很確定的是說我們經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼全面的資料像委員來補充說明 談判小組除了我跟楊振偉之外其實包含了跨部會經濟部 農業部 衛福部 財政部等等還有外交部 國安會等等許多的部會"},{"start":438.24,"end":456.621,"text":"那談判的範疇包含關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易變節化經濟安全採購投資等等等等所以其實各部會參與各部會的部分那目前看我們當天看到這個新聞我們有了解行政院經貿辦經濟部等各部會都沒有收到查證"},{"start":457.731,"end":472.707,"text":"所以我想這裡面有些數字並不是向部會查證之後來做報導所以裡面也有一些資訊跟談判的情形有所出入我們還是希望說國人給予我們一些時間讓我們加速談判"},{"start":473.408,"end":492.766,"text":"那談判我們一旦跟美方達成協議我們一定會先公佈所有談判的內容跟細節那這個過程我們必須做一定的這樣的一個期待是希望說有一些過度的揭露是不是可能最終會影響我們談判雙方條件的磋商"},{"start":493.587,"end":521.481,"text":"像後續我們要談判相關的供應鏈的合作232的相關關稅然後如果達成共識希望對等關稅能夠再降那這些談判桌上可能的條件現在如果過度的揭露是不是也會成為我們未來談判的變數我想這一點還要請大院跟社會能夠理解那我們一定在一旦有共識跟達成協議的時候我們一定會完整的提供說明向社會也會將協議送大院來審議"},{"start":522.461,"end":532.577,"text":"也會一併提出衝擊影響評估我再請問副院長如果到時查出來真的是從經濟部裡面揭露出來的話那會有懲處嗎 請問"},{"start":536.843,"end":554.676,"text":"譬如說它裡面提供目前為止都說裡面的資訊其實是有跟原本談判的內容其實是有出入的表示說萬一如果說真的是從經濟部裡面洩露出來的這會不會是說造成人心不安的一個"},{"start":556.565,"end":570.807,"text":"報告委員任何公務員從事國家公務的行為都有一定的準則跟規範公務員服務法有任何違法的那我們就依法來處理但我認為跟媒體的溝通我們要做得更確實"},{"start":571.989,"end":589.891,"text":"因為如果平常建立媒體有這種查證的程序的話很多的誤會就不會發生所以我也要求各部會以後加強跟媒體各項聯絡跟服務我們用最真實的面貌來向國人來論述我們所有的施政結果"},{"start":590.626,"end":605.752,"text":"OK 好了解那剛剛副院長還有提到就是說未來我們關稅的協議的文本呢將會送到這個立法院來做審議那行政單位會不會擔心就是說立法院到時會推翻原定的這個協議的內容有沒有可能"},{"start":606.292,"end":621.62,"text":"那當然不是說協議的內容不能夠提出意見萬一在野正義為反對而反對難道我們還要跟美國重新來談判嗎?有可能嗎?美國會理會台灣嗎?大院在2015年已經訂有這個條約締結法那我想貴我兩院就依條約締結法相關的法律規範來進行"},{"start":631.946,"end":649.533,"text":"那條約締結法第三條有對條約有所定義裡面涉及國防外交財政經濟重要事項都是稱為條約那尤其如果未來在關稅的部分有所變動的話那關稅也有涉及相關關稅的法律那這些我們都會依照法律來進行"},{"start":650.014,"end":667.792,"text":"那條約締結法第八條也清楚的規範這個條約簽署之後會要送國會來這個審議那當然第十條也有相關國會審議相關的條文我想這些法律都可以供委員這邊來參考那不過這一次的談判我要強調的是它跟過去傳統的經貿談判不一樣"},{"start":669.554,"end":691.856,"text":"過去傳統經貿盤可能歷時多年但是這一次是在幾個月內美國跟所有國家一起進行談判那談判必須有這個各個範疇關稅費關稅貿易障礙貿易變節化經濟安全等等投資等等各項議題也有相關對等貿易協議的各項的條文要逐條的磋商這些技術性磋商完了之後我們同時"},{"start":692.817,"end":719.525,"text":"跟貿易代表組磋商完我們要跟商務部來進行未來供應鏈232的討論來進行一個總結的一個會議那最後總結的會議也要看美方他怎麼樣來安排這個形式來進行所以我想這個談判跟過去的經貿談判的形式是有所不同的屆時我們再請國會來這個云與整體的考量但是我們也會善盡行政院向國會報告以及提供衝擊影響評估並把所有的資訊送交國會來審議的責任"},{"start":721.212,"end":746.649,"text":"OK好謝謝那也是要等到最終可能九月底十月以後的事情了嗎一切等談判結束前後我剛剛所提的這個時程是參考這個美國財政部長BesantMr.Besant他的一個說法那但是以我方的立場當然是我們希望能夠越快越好那不過的確談判有時候取決於雙方例如說最後總結性會議的安排"},{"start":747.089,"end":752.337,"text":"我們也必須要跟美方來進行就形式的討論所以我想我們就是全力朝這個目標來推進"},{"start":753.939,"end":781.059,"text":"OK好最後一個問題我想請教的就是說我們為了因應美國對等關稅帶來的這個產業的衝擊那經濟部呢他有提了四大方向就是包含用AI來降成本去美國設這個產業園區鼓勵業者生耕利基市場還有協助升級轉型等等那本是想請教的去美國設產業園區這個部分其實也就是我們談判的一個很重要的一個一個項目跟籌碼之一嘛對不對因為我們既然已經提出來了"},{"start":781.98,"end":803.111,"text":"其實外界都關心說那為什麼台美還沒達成協議其實就是我們一再的說明因為我們的逆差結構有九成來自半導體ICT那這個在232調查項目中那將這個對等關稅跟232並談的像日韓歐盟美方也清楚的跟我們表達他們涉及的232項目相對比我們單純"},{"start":804.232,"end":822.467,"text":"他們也許是汽車也許是鋼品等等等等那我方是聚焦在半導體跟ICT那這個部分的232關稅在美方的政策屬於未定他們的稅率政策還在變動中所以雙方必須就供應鏈合作跟232後續我們也希望爭取優惠一併討論"},{"start":823.948,"end":844.916,"text":"所以我們的確也正在跟我們的高科技業者座談來瞭解大家的想法整合大家的共識我們希望能夠透過後續的談判能夠雙方台美供應鏈有一個好的合作然後爭取232的優惠一旦在這個部分達成共識我們同時能夠進入總結會議爭取再降對等關稅並且不疊加"},{"start":845.495,"end":869.71,"text":"所以這裡面核心的議題的確也是供應鏈的我們在國際尤其在美國擴大的佈局那我想台美的高科技產業過去長期是互補的美國在創新研發非常的強台灣是我們的製造非常的強所以如果我們的製造在美國能夠來結合他們當地的技術研發能力市場跟人才我想也是我們一個有利的一個國際佈局"},{"start":870.791,"end":886.017,"text":"所以未來的談判應該要朝向雙方互補互利合作的方式來深入討論這個供應鏈合作的佈局那我方高科技產業的發展一個很重要的經驗也是來自於我們產業園區 科學園區政府跟產業界協力合作的模式"},{"start":886.517,"end":911.833,"text":"所以這一次除了企業如果赴美投資如果政府未來也能夠協助我們落地的企業能夠打造一個更好的投資環境公平的環境我們也透過這樣的產業聚落的方式為他們爭取更好的在美國給予的協助跟條件讓他們能夠得到更好的基礎建設然後能夠更好的一個投資優惠的環境我想對我們的產業的國際布局也是有利的"},{"start":912.193,"end":925.779,"text":"所以這個都在我們後續的談判範疇當中所以這個去美國社產業園區就是我們的籌碼之一當然剛才副院長講得非常的清楚可能還是以高科技產業到那裡去做投資呢作為這個好"},{"start":943.556,"end":945.318,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝左院長還有副院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":804,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（11時24分）謝謝主席。有請卓院長，還有鄭副院長。"],["主席：請卓院長，鄭副院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：院長好、副院長午安。雖然20%的臺美關稅在8月7日的時候就已經生效了，可是基本上這是一個暫時性的稅率，整個談判過程都還在進行當中，剛剛副院長或是之前我有聽到美方這邊的報導說，也許9月份或10月份就會有一個最終結果，談判團隊也一直強調我們會努力爭取不疊加，甚至比20%還要低的稅率。既然這是一個還在進行當中的談判，基於國際談判的原則，都會簽署保密協議，要等到整個談判有了最後的結果，才能夠公布談判的細節。可是我們看到在野的立委根本不顧國際談判規範，甚至誤導民眾說這整個談判其實是一個黑箱作業，要求公開談判內容，除了今天的院會，本席發現在這之前，有好幾個委員會其實已經開過、安排超過10場以上的相關議程，要求談判團隊備詢，委員會問不夠，今天還要加開院會再來詢問，所以本席想請教院長、副院長一個非常普遍的問題，如果我們片面公開相關細節，對於這次或未來的國際談判會有什麼樣不利的影響？"],["卓院長榮泰：談判的壓力，我請副院長來答復。"],["鄭副院長麗君：謝謝羅委員的還原，事實上，我們在歷次的實體談判之後都有發布新聞稿，各部會也都有到委員會備詢，的確現在因為有時間差，許多國家已達成協議，而我方是還沒有達成協議，是先從32%降到20%，所以現在大家看到各國公布的談判條件，是因為他們跟美方達成協議，達成協議之後，就會由雙方公布聯合聲明羅列相關談判條件，或由白宮公布fact sheet（事實文件）來公布談判條件，或是由川普總統本人宣布協議的相關重點內容，所以我們看到各國公布的這些內容，都是在達成協議之後，比較完整的說明裡面涉及的所有談判條件，但因為我方現在還在談判中，所以我們現在的稅率是一個階段性稅率，屆時如果達成協議，雙方也會先公布相關談判條件，之後完成了協議的簽署，我們會依照條約締結法第八條規定，條約簽署之後會報行政院，然後送國會進行審議，我想我們一切都是依照條約締結法依法進行這個過程。","的確，我們現在還在繼續談判中，但我們也了解產業、社會需要更清楚的資訊，所以我們也願意善盡說明的責任，不管是來大院備詢、開記者會，或是我們已經跟產業界有許多的座談，都會持續進行說明，讓大家更了解我們在MFN加對等關稅20%受到的衝擊中，政府可以給予什麼樣的支持，尤其針對像工具機、機械、蝴蝶蘭或鬼頭刀等等這些衝擊比較大的，對於競爭國而言，相對它的稅率對競爭國產生比較競爭劣勢的特定產業，我想院長也有特地安排行程面對面的聽取、傾聽業者的聲音，行政院會再給予特別的支持，我想在這個過程當中，我們會全力支持，但是我們的談判團隊，包含跨部會在內，一定全力努力，持續以越快速度越好來推進談判，爭取最後的總結會議來完成協議。"],["羅委員美玲：是，所以我們其實一直都是按照國際規範在走，一定要等有一個定案之後，才能夠公開相關細節。我想全世界都是如此，請問，有沒有哪個國家的國會議員會在談判當中，一再要求行政團隊、談判團隊把細節公開？目前有嗎？目前看起來好像沒有，就只有臺灣這麼做，對不對？"],["鄭副院長麗君：美國這次跟各國談判都簽有保密協議，當然我們為了尊重大院……"],["羅委員美玲：所以大家都很清楚，這是不能夠說的。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對，這個協議其實也是規範在談判過程當中相關的文件跟……因為有許多談判的議題，其實在磋商中也許有共識，但最後在總結的時候，會再整體進行最後定案，的確，各國也都依照國際談判慣例跟保密協議在進行，但是我們為了尊重大院，也在大院機密會議的安排下，出示相關保密的資料，不過的確因為現在許多國家達成協議了，大家看到相關的談判條件，也會想要了解我方談判的情形，我們充分理解社會需要資訊、國會需要資訊，所以我們行政院在所有可能的範圍、能夠公開說明的，我們一定善盡說明的責任。"],["羅委員美玲：好的，謝謝副院長的說明。再來，剛剛也有委員在關心，就是前兩天有媒體以獨家報導的方式，報導裡面特別還提到說，是收到經濟部內部的資訊，所以裡面還提及了談判的過程，美國要求我方取消哪些商品品項的關稅，甚至有提到我方對美投資方面的承諾等等，雖然後來行政院經貿工作小組有澄清說，其實這是不實的報導，也沒有跟他們做過求證，裡面的項目跟談判的內容是有所出入的，可是媒體所提到的經濟部內部所提供的資訊，到目前為止事情已經過了兩天，我們行政單位到底有沒有去了解是不是就是從經濟部裡面流出來的？有了解過嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼完全、全面的資料，所以這個報導其實是不確實的。"],["羅委員美玲：確實，可是他特別有提到是經濟部內部流出來的，這個管道到底是誰、是哪個單位，有去了解過嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我們也在了解中，但是……"],["羅委員美玲：還在了解當中？"],["何次長晉滄：在了解中。"],["羅委員美玲：所以到目前還不是很清楚到底怎麼回事？"],["何次長晉滄：但是很確定的是說，我們經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼全面的資料。"],["鄭副院長麗君：向委員來補充說明，談判小組除了我跟楊政委之外，其實包含了跨部會，經濟部、農業部、衛福部、財政部等等，還有外交部、國安會等等許多的部會，談判的範疇包含關稅、非關稅貿易障礙、貿易便捷化、經濟安全、採購投資等等，所以其實是各部會參與各部會的部分。我們當天看到這個新聞，我們有了解行政院經貿辦、經濟部等各部會都沒有收到查證，所以我想這裡面有些數字並不是向部會查證之後來做報導，裡面也有一些資訊跟談判的情形有所出入，我們還是希望國人給予我們一些時間，讓我們加速談判，我們一旦跟美方達成協議，我們一定會先公布所有談判的內容跟細節。這個過程我們必須做這樣的期待是希望說，有一些過度的揭露是不是可能最終會影響我們談判雙方條件的磋商，像後續我們要談判相關的供應鏈合作、232的相關關稅，然後如果達成共識，希望對等關稅能夠再降，這些談判桌上可能的條件，現在如果過度的揭露，是不是也會成為我們未來談判的變數，我想這一點還要請大院跟社會能夠理解。我們一旦有共識跟達成協議的時候，我們一定會完整地向社會提供說明，也會將協議送大院來審議，也會一併提出衝擊影響評估。"],["羅委員美玲：我再請問副院長，如果到時查出來，真的是從經濟部裡面揭露出來的話，請問會有懲處嗎？因為到目前為止都說裡面的資訊其實是跟原本談判的內容是有出入的，萬一如果真的是從經濟部裡面洩露出來的，這會不會是造成人心不安的一個消息？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，任何公務員從事國家公務的行為，都有一定的準則跟規範──公務員服務法，有任何違法的，那我們就依法來處理。我認為跟媒體的溝通，我們要做得更確實，如果平常……"],["羅委員美玲：也希望媒體可以來求證。"],["卓院長榮泰：平常建立媒體有這種查證程序的話，很多的誤會就不會發生，所以我會要求各部會以後加強跟媒體各項聯絡跟服務，我們用最真實的面貌，來向國人論述我們所有的施政結果。"],["羅委員美玲：好，了解。剛剛副院長還有提到，未來我們關稅的協議文本將會送到立法院來做審議，那行政單位會不會擔心立法院到時會推翻原定的協議內容，有沒有可能？當然不是說不能夠對協議的內容提出意見，但萬一在野陣營為反對而反對，難道我們還要跟美國重新來談判嗎？有可能嗎？美國會理會臺灣嗎？想請教會不會擔心？"],["鄭副院長麗君：是，謝謝委員的問題。大院在2015年已經定有條約締結法，我想貴、我兩院就依締結法相關的法律規範來進行，條約締結法第三條對條約有所定義，裡面涉及國防、外交、財政、經濟重要事項都是稱為條約，尤其如果未來在關稅的部分有所變動的話，關稅也有涉及相關關稅的法律，這些我們都會依照法律來進行。條約締結法第八條也清楚的規範條約簽署之後要送國會來審議，當然第十條也有國會審議相關的條文，我想這些法律都可以供委員這邊來參考，不過這一次的談判，我要強調的是它跟過去傳統的經貿談判不一樣，過去傳統經貿談判可能歷時多年，但是這一次是在幾個月內……"],["羅委員美玲：非常短。"],["鄭副院長麗君：美國跟所有國家一起進行談判，談判必須有各個範疇：關稅、非關稅貿易障礙、貿易便捷化、經濟安全、投資等等各項議題，也有相關對等貿易協議的各項條文要逐條磋商，這些技術性磋商完了之後，我們跟貿易代表組磋商完，同時我們要跟商務部來進行未來供應鏈232的討論，並進行一個總結的會議，最後總結的會議也要看美方怎麼樣安排這個形式來進行，所以我想這個談判跟過去的經貿談判的形式是有所不同的，屆時我們再請國會來予以整體的考量，但是我們也會善盡行政院向國會報告以及提供衝擊影響評估，並把所有的資訊送交國會來審議的責任。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！好，謝謝，也是要等到最終可能9月底、10月以後的事情了嗎？一切等談判結束才能夠……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我剛剛所提的這個時程是參考美國財政部長Mr.Bessent的一個說法，但是以我方的立場，當然我們希望能夠越快越好，不過的確談判有時候取決於雙方，例如最後總結性會議的安排，我們也必須要跟美方來進行就形式的討論，所以我想我們就是全力朝這個目標來推進。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！好，最後一個問題，我想請教的就是我們為了因應美國對等關稅帶來的產業衝擊，經濟部有提了四大方向，就是包含用AI來降成本，去美國設產業園區，鼓勵業者深耕利基市場還有協助升級轉型等等。本席想請教，去美國設產業園區這個部分其實也就是我們談判的一個很重要的項目跟籌碼之一，對不對？因為我們既然已經提出來了……"],["鄭副院長麗君：外界都關心為什麼臺美還沒達成協議，其實就是我們一再的說明，因為我們的逆差結構有九成來自半導體、ICT，這個在232調查項目中，將對等關稅跟232併談的，像日、韓、歐盟，美方也清楚的跟我們表達，他們涉及的232項目相對比我們單純，他們也許是汽車、也許是鋼品等等，我方是基於聚焦在半導體跟ICT，這個部分的232關稅在美方的政策屬於未定，他們的稅率政策還在變動中，所以雙方必須就供應鏈合作跟232後續我們也希望爭取優惠，這一併討論。所以我們的確也正在跟我們的高科技業者座談，來了解大家的想法，整合大家的共識，我們希望能夠透過後續的談判，雙方臺美供應鏈能夠有一個好的合作，然後爭取232的優惠，一旦在這部分達成共識，我們同時能夠進入總結會議，爭取再降對等關稅並且不疊加，所以這裡面核心的議題的確也是我們的供應鏈在國際，尤其在美國擴大布局。","我想臺美的高科技產業過去長期是互補的，美國在創新研發非常的強，臺灣是我們的製造非常的強，所以如果我們的製造在美國能夠來結合他們當地的技術、研發能力、市場跟人才，我想也是我們一個有利的國際布局，所以未來的談判應該要朝向雙方互補、互利、合作的方式，來深入討論供應鏈合作的布局。我方高科技產業的發展，一個很重要的經驗也是來自於我們產業園區、科學園區、政府跟產業界協力合作的模式。所以這一次，除了企業如果赴美投資，政府未來也能夠協助我們落地的企業打造一個更好的投資環境、公平的環境，我們也透過這樣產業聚落的方式，為他們爭取更好的在美國給予的協助跟條件，讓他們能夠得到更好的基礎建設，然後能夠有更好的一個投資優惠的環境，我想對我們產業的國際布局也是有利的，所以這個都在我們後續的談判範疇當中。"],["羅委員美玲：所以去美國設產業園區就是我們的籌碼之一，當然剛剛副院長講得非常清楚，可能還是以高科技產業到那裡去投資做為主軸，是這樣子的意思嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：其實232項目除了半導體、ICT之外，我們當然也希望能夠爭取像鋼等其他項目一併討論。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，真的是非常辛苦，我希望大家在談判的透過當中能夠順利，也希望能達到預期想要的結果，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝卓院長及副院長。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163600","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc163ef8bad1dc5da5c0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84af5e1aacc5385281515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間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講完了所以不做這兩件事就不可能談得好對吧他為了也是要他的貿易赤字還有他的財政政治跟貿易利差 沒錯要跟他貿易赤字的無一倖免不管是不是他的盟友包括日本 韓國 包括所謂的歐盟沒有一個人置身事外所以20加N從8月7號到現在應該還在進行中吧"},{"start":106.81,"end":114.764,"text":"所以我們就以緩急急的方式所以他就是一個現在進行對我們對特殊的產業有受到傷害所以我們以緩急急來協助他"},{"start":115.649,"end":141.927,"text":"談判代表很努力美國政府沒有辦法達成協議我覺得還是回到一個問題是政府有沒有讓人民安心啊過程裡面我們沒有人說談判代表不努力但是我覺得人民不夠安心尤其是在7月31號副院長在這邊我想我們必須要表達人民對於這件事情的看法7月31號全部的國人引頸期盼等著行政院的回答"},{"start":142.543,"end":165.09,"text":"行政院發言人出來說已經在談了而且在寫聯合聲明了我們都覺得很棒啊但是第二天早上起來是突然間發現第一沒有聯合聲明第二不是什麼技術性磋商第三20%就算了過了一天才說28還要加恩這才是今天我剛說國人不滿意的原因"},{"start":166.138,"end":185.01,"text":"我們知道川普要什麼可是我們不知道我們的行政團隊是這樣的方式讓國人在過程中竟然是受到這樣的驚嚇院長你了解我的意思嗎7月31號為什麼會發明莫名其妙的聯合聲明呢說聯合聲明正在寫一個天早上沒有"},{"start":186.212,"end":212.657,"text":"既有關稅加上對等關稅這個我們早先就講過沒有以這個強調我會覺得要加強那談判的過程請副院長來說一下聯合聲明是隨便亂說的嗎沒有 我們的確和美方戳傷了所有相關的技術性議題以及聯合聲明相關的內容有戳傷不是正在寫 只是有戳傷但他說的是正在寫"},{"start":214.212,"end":218.697,"text":"這件事情我的意思是說行政院必須要對國人說個抱歉因為經過幾輪的談判相關的技術性議題大致的共識也完成行政院發言人這樣說對還是不對"},{"start":235.253,"end":258.127,"text":"是對的 因為我們的確跟美方進行了聯合聲明的磋商所以第二天在最後一輪的實體磋商當中的確有但最後一天沒有能夠達 事實上跟委員報我努力到最後一天所以就是空包燈不是 沒有達成共識有兩個原因第一個是美方沒有得以安排美方不同意所以我們只是自己說說不是"},{"start":258.647,"end":286.161,"text":"第二美方也有通知我方因為我方的這個逆差結構有九成我只要說這是中華民國政府闖出的最大的笑話啦第二個是第二天才開始吵說20%要不要加N然後看到日本在吵我們才赫然發現我們也要加N然後現在你告訴我們你要去爭取不加N這是對你之前講過了但是全國人民大概只有"},{"start":287.202,"end":305.276,"text":"美方希望續談是因為我們聯動232半導體ICT這現象我們在記者會有說明全部的媒體都沒有人知道全部的民眾都沒有人知道就是立法委員不認真所以我們都不知道"},{"start":306.497,"end":332.321,"text":"所以以後不要再闖這種笑話了院長我要說的是不要再有這種surpriseno surprise是一個對國人最重要的立場我們非常尊重委員所以我們希望來國會說明我們很早就希望你們來說明了但是民進黨一直擋著不到你們來說明我現在講一次 院長我只要求一個no surprise"},{"start":332.461,"end":357.106,"text":"不要發生這類似這樣的意外大家都知道很難談我們都理解但是不要有這種surprise所以安心讓人民很重要很難談所以沒有到那個點上我們真的沒有辦法把那個關鍵講出來所以我現在就要問了我們剛剛很多委員都已經問過了其實我們只是要問三句話第一這個暫時新關稅how long 還有多久"},{"start":358.325,"end":364.336,"text":"你們可以做到剛副院長說的九月底美國財政部長說的十月底可以確定這樣的時程嗎"},{"start":366.072,"end":388.291,"text":"我們希望越快越好越快越好的確我們在持續推進中一到兩個月之內應該會大勢抵地我們持續推進中那我們也表達了三項目標那希望越快越好那當然這取決於雙方不過我們會全力努力那真正關鍵的因素我剛剛有跟委員讓我說明完就是有關於是半導體供應鏈以及232相關的關稅"},{"start":390.733,"end":392.995,"text":"那真的就不要告訴人家說我們在你聯合聲明了啦"},{"start":409.844,"end":439.137,"text":"的確有聯合聲明那如果我們達成協議那因為各國達成協議的模式那你們都談完了我希望剛剛講那些時辰全部公佈給大家聽那時候你的聯合聲明長什麼樣如果可以的話到時候都一起公佈把所有時辰講出來那是不是我跟委員來報告美方達成協議的模式有公佈聯合聲明的有公佈白宮事實文件很少啦只有很重要的很大的國家才有正式公佈最開心的還有日本韓國還跟川普一起照相呢"},{"start":439.437,"end":464.056,"text":"像前幾天就公布了歐盟的聯合聲明但歐盟是在這個8月1號以前就先宣布達成共識所以他達成共識的方式有多遠我想過程我剛剛講了no surprise就好了前面讓大家更清楚知道你的過程第二個我要問的是有多少影響剛剛院長報告的是已經有說了多少廠商現在無薪假可能還有多少的影響"},{"start":464.696,"end":467.019,"text":"我想問說對於國內的衝擊什麼時候會知道什麼時候會知道現在正在發生的20加N現在的衝擊評估有了嗎"},{"start":481.406,"end":501.602,"text":"我們衝擊評估在4月9號我們已經有公布過了而且有各項產品的這個衝擊評估那包含我們在工業的部分特別提到像工具機 機械那個報告裡面都有了副院長不要浪費我的時間好嗎下一個我想問一下你們的談判代表"},{"start":502.694,"end":510.83,"text":"我們現在看到的是台積電董事長還有黃仁勳都見到川普我們的談判代表到底現在在跟誰談啊"},{"start":512.436,"end":537.547,"text":"我们过去几个月我们的谈判对口是美国贸易代表署以及商务部那的确美方我们在谈判最终必须进行总结会议但美方的总结会议的形式也有它不同的设定美方总结会议的形式美方会提出它的一个建议方案会做考量我方也会就这个形式来现在的问题就是可能还有下一个"},{"start":538.527,"end":554.948,"text":"我們現在USDR給我們一直以來的所謂的貿易障礙也就剛剛院長說的他們一直要台灣放寬的叫做相關實案的標準以及開放市場最重要要投資美國這個是USDR長期以來對台灣的所謂的"},{"start":557.174,"end":568.829,"text":"貿易障礙就是他們美方長期每一年會定期公佈各國的貿易障礙這些我要問的是台灣的談判紅線在哪裡我們看到日本講得很清楚汽車就是他的談判紅線"},{"start":571.669,"end":597.496,"text":"韓國牛肉食安就是他的談判紅線我想問一下國民健康我們的談判紅線是良食安全國民健康就是我們的原則是所以具體的內容呢具體跟美方來談判但是一個基改食品校園會不會放委員我們在現在在談判過程當中那我就念給大家聽吧30月齡以上的美牛進口"},{"start":598.779,"end":621.912,"text":"黃牛政的疑慮我們相關的牛血產品跟牛脂違反國際標準這是他們說我們的但我們長期以來不讓這些進入所謂的校園跟軍隊另外就是馬鈴薯還有所謂的萊劑這些都是我們長期以來被美國認為的貿易障礙這一次他有沒有要求把這些放寬"},{"start":622.827,"end":637.575,"text":"跟委員報告的確各國都會面對美國希望關稅非關稅貿易障礙的這些談判的範圍那美國每年都會 我要說的是齁院長食品安全這件事情就是讓人民知道 委員是不是讓我可以回答"},{"start":639.369,"end":655.171,"text":"因為這些範圍的確是會在談但是我方一定是以這個糧食安全 國民健康為原則然後依據科學的依據然後國民健康 糧食安全"},{"start":655.712,"end":659.558,"text":"是我們的原則那我們希望我們在既有的既有的報告委員你剛說的那幾項都是"},{"start":671.776,"end":678.605,"text":"美方跟我國以及其他各國重新來一些公開的貿易障礙只是委員我說一句良心話我們在這裡討論這個事情並無助於談判的進行但是我要說的是這是人民會關心的事"},{"start":688.138,"end":713.007,"text":"這是人民最關心的為什麼長期以來變成貿易障礙就是因為台灣人民沒有辦法接受在食品上面標示不明我們不知道我們吃了什麼所以我們只要做清楚的標示這長期被美國認為我們做貿易限制這其實是你要去爭取的國民健康 管理制度 糧食安全這些都是我們談判的原則它會長期成為貿易障礙就是因為國內有這樣的壓力"},{"start":717.288,"end":740.363,"text":"我要說的是 蘇院長你要把我們的壓力當成你談判的助力而不是一味的把這個東西當成說我要拿去交換的東西我要說的是 這應該是你談判的助力這是國內民眾對這件食品安全最基本的要求如果今天美國真的要我們放什麼我們要知道我們換到了什麼"},{"start":740.883,"end":764.102,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我剛剛有重申我們的談判原則那所有談判的結果我們最後一定送大院來審議現在美中貿易談判延到了90天所以我們會不會是因為這樣美國要先跟中國談然後再來跟台灣談美中談判延到11月初我們會不會也因為這樣被耽擱了"},{"start":765.743,"end":773.736,"text":"美方的考量我沒有辦法來代表美方說明你覺得他會不會像WTO一樣就是中國先台灣再來理台灣"},{"start":774.878,"end":804.248,"text":"我們就是全力以赴院長這是我很擔心的地方美國人可能會拿台灣作為所謂的美中貿易談判裡面最大的棋子我相信我們也一定是一個很重要的棋子第二個部分是他可能拿著我們跟中國談不管是軍事或經濟貿易另外也可能用我們去犧牲掉讓他去換取中國的讓步這一點在台灣我們身為民意代表立場我們必須要很鄭重的跟"},{"start":804.968,"end":825.636,"text":"兩位說我覺得國人非常在意這件事我們是一個主權國家的立場跟美國進行談判美國多方的考量他考慮其他的因素這並非我們能夠去主導去影響的但我是希望說對台灣能夠有更合理更好的一個稅率沒錯最後一個問題是在8月23號我們看到一個瘋傳媒的獨家報導"},{"start":827.156,"end":855.282,"text":"說台灣的關稅籌碼出爐了而且經濟部的內部資料消息流出來說我們保證市場全面開放台灣企業四年要投資兩千五百億然後我們採購四年之內要投資一千三百億然後還有十年要三千億然後最後我們還要給他四千億的金融服務支持所以院長我看到副院長還是貿易代表有否認這個消息空穴來風還是確有其事"},{"start":856.022,"end":863.776,"text":"這些消息未向經紀部查證也未向行政院經貿辦公室查證但是有沒有全面開放市場"},{"start":864.588,"end":893.759,"text":"那裡面也有一些資訊跟談判情形有所出入不過因為現在談判還在繼續進行當中那是不是請容我們無法一一的向大院做非常詳細的報告我們也是為了維護最後談判的好的一個結果院長投資美國是不可擋我看全世界不管是日本韓國歐盟都一樣所以投資美國有兩種方法一個是民間一個是國家國家對美採購增加我相信這個也大家都支持軍購的部分"},{"start":894.315,"end":907.573,"text":"另外一個是剛剛講不管買美國米買什麼能夠增加你談判的籌碼我相信大部分的國人也可以接受現在的重點是如果我們要大幅投資美國你們接下來上次說的"},{"start":908.695,"end":908.715,"text":"謝謝黃委員"},{"start":937.583,"end":939.265,"text":"謝謝卓院長下一位我們請羅美玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":641,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時8分）謝謝主席，我請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長早。今天是國人非常關心的有關關稅專案報告，雖然談判還在進行中，我也知道您很多事情沒有辦法現在對國人說，但是我必須說從4月到現在國人都在等進一步的消息。院長，你覺得到目前為止政府的處置，您滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得第一、談判代表團很辛苦；再來，我們適度的把談判的次數、進度向外界講，但細節內容到底是有所保留。"],["黃委員珊珊：我必須說國人不太滿意啦，不滿意的不是我們的談判代表不努力，我們都知道這一次川普的關稅，他是對著全世界開槍。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺灣只是其中一個，所以我沒有辦法怪任何一個人，但是他的目標很清楚，開放市場、投資美國，講完了。所以不做這兩件事就不可能談得好，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：他也是為了他的貿易逆差，還有他的財政赤字。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，只要跟他貿易赤字的無一倖免，不管是不是他的盟友，包括日本、韓國，包括所謂的歐盟，沒有一個人置身事外。所以「20+N」，從8月7號到現在，應該還在進行中吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們是用移緩濟急的方式，針對……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它就是一個現在進行式。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，對於特殊的產業有受到損害，我們移緩濟急來協助。"],["黃委員珊珊：談判代表很努力，與美國政府沒有辦法達成協議，我覺得還是回到一個問題，就是政府有沒有讓人民安心？過程裡面我們沒有人說談判代表不努力，但是我覺得人民不夠安心。尤其是7月31號，副院長在這邊，我想我們必須要表達人民對於這件事情的看法，7月31號全部國人引頸期盼等著行政院的回答，行政院發言人出來說已經在談了，而且在寫聯合聲明了，我們都覺得很棒。但是第二天早上起來突然間發現，第一，沒有聯合聲明；第二，不是什麼技術性磋商；第三，20%就算了，過了一天才說20%還要加N，這才是我說今天國人不滿意的原因。我們知道川普要什麼，可是不知道我們的行政團隊是用這樣的方式，讓國人在過程中竟然是受到這樣的驚嚇。院長，你了解我的意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：既有關稅加上……"],["黃委員珊珊：7月31號為什麼會發那個莫名其妙的聲明呢？說聯合聲明正在寫。第二天早上沒有！"],["卓院長榮泰：既有關稅加上對等關稅，這個我們早先就講過，沒有一再地強調，我們絕對要加強……"],["黃委員珊珊：聯合聲明是院長說的，還是行政院發言人自己亂說的？"],["卓院長榮泰：談判的過程，請副院長說明。"],["鄭副院長麗君：跟委員報告，的確從4月以來……"],["黃委員珊珊：聯合聲明是隨便亂說的嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：沒有，我們的確跟美方磋商了所有相關的技術性議題，以及聯合聲明相關的內容，最後……"],["黃委員珊珊：有磋商？不是正在寫，只是有磋商？"],["鄭副院長麗君：有磋商。"],["黃委員珊珊：但他說的是正在寫，副院長。"],["鄭副院長麗君：也已經有……是不是讓我可以……"],["黃委員珊珊：這件事情，我的意思是說……"],["鄭副院長麗君：是不是我可以非常……"],["黃委員珊珊：行政院必須要對國人說個抱歉。"],["鄭副院長麗君：所以我是不是現在非常簡要地跟委員說明？因為經過幾輪的談判，相關的技術性議題大致有共識……"],["黃委員珊珊：這我們都理解。"],["鄭副院長麗君：也完成……"],["黃委員珊珊：副院長，我只要說，行政院發言人這樣說，對還是不對？"],["鄭副院長麗君：是對的，因為我們的確跟美方進行了聯合聲明的磋商……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以第二天……"],["鄭副院長麗君：在最後一輪的實體磋商當中的確有，但最後一天沒有能夠達……事實上跟委員報告，我努力到最後一天，沒有……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是空包彈。"],["鄭副院長麗君：不是，沒有達成共識有兩個原因，第一個是美方未得以安排總結性的會議。"],["黃委員珊珊：美方不同意，所以我們只是自己說說？"],["鄭副院長麗君：不是不同意。第二，美方也有通知我方，因為我方的逆差結構有九成……"],["黃委員珊珊：副院長，這些我都理解……"],["鄭副院長麗君：是半導體、ICT，連動232……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只要說，這是中華民國政府闖出的最大笑話！"],["鄭副院長麗君：是不是委員讓我可以……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個是，第二天才開始吵20%要不要加N。看到日本在吵，我們才赫然發現我們也要加N，而現在你告訴我們，你要去爭取不加N，這是……"],["卓院長榮泰：之前講過了，沒有一再地強調、重複，我們檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，你之前講過了，但是全國人民大概只有幾個人聽到，就幾個人看到。"],["鄭副院長麗君：美方希望續談，是因為我們連動232、半導體、ICT這些項目……"],["黃委員珊珊：副院長，如果你早就像這樣子講得很清楚，我們都知道。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們在記者會有說明，那我今天來這邊……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們在記者會有說明，全部的媒體都沒有人知道、全部的民眾都沒有人知道！"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們今……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是立法委員不認真，所以我們都不知道？"],["鄭副院長麗君：不是、不是，絕對不是，所以我有主動表達希望來國會說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：以後不要再闖出這種笑話啦！"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們有主動表達，希望來國會說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，我要說的是不要再有這種surprise。"],["卓院長榮泰：談判還沒有談到那個點上，我們也不會把那些話講出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：no surprise，是對國人最重要的一個立場。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們非常尊重委員，所以我們希望來國會說明，也謝謝委員，國會給我們機會來說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們很早就希望你們來說明了。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對，那……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是民進黨黨團一直擋著不讓你們來說明。我現在再講一次，院長，我只要求一個，no surprise！不要發生類似這樣的意外。大家都知道很難談，我們都理解，但是不要有這種surprise，讓人民安心很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是surprise。很難談，所以沒有到那個點上，我們真的沒有辦法把那個關鍵講出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我現在就要問了，剛剛很多委員都已經問過，其實我們只是要問三句話，第一，這個暫時性關稅how long、還有多久？你們可以做到，剛剛副院長說的9月底、美國財政部部長說的10月底，可以確定這樣的時程嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們希望越快越好。的確我們在持續推進中……"],["黃委員珊珊：越快越好，就是一到兩個月之內應該會大勢底定？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們持續推進中。我們也表達了三項目標，希望越快越好，當然這取決於雙方，不過我們會全力努力……"],["黃委員珊珊：繼續努力啦！"],["鄭副院長麗君：真正關鍵的因素我剛剛有請委員讓我說明完，就是有關於半導體供應鏈以及232相關關稅……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，這些很重要，要談更久。"],["鄭副院長麗君：在我們完成對等關稅談判當中，因為我國逆差的特殊性九成來自這些項目，而美方的政策還在變動中，所以美方也表達希望多一點洽談的時間，所以雙方正在做這樣的努力當中……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，那真的就不要告訴人家說我們在擬聯合聲明了啦！"],["鄭副院長麗君：的確有聯合聲明，如果我們達成協議。因為各國達成協議的模式有聯合聲明，有……"],["黃委員珊珊：等都談完了，我希望把剛剛講的那些時程全部公布，讓大家知道……"],["鄭副院長麗君：有事實文件……"],["黃委員珊珊：讓大家知道你那時候的聯合聲明長什麼樣。如果可以的話，到時候就一起公布，把所有時程講出來。"],["鄭副院長麗君：是不是我跟委員來報告？美方達成協議的模式，有公布聯合聲明的，有公布白宮事實文件……"],["黃委員珊珊：很少啦！"],["鄭副院長麗君：有川普總統的貼文……"],["黃委員珊珊：只有很重要的、很大的國家才有正式公布啦！"],["鄭副院長麗君：像前幾天……"],["黃委員珊珊：最開心的還有日本、韓國，他們還跟川普一起照相呢！"],["鄭副院長麗君：像前幾天就公布了歐盟的聯合聲明，歐盟是在8月1號以前就先宣布達成共識，所以它達成共識的方式是多元的。"],["黃委員珊珊：副院長，我剛剛講了，no surprise就好了，前面讓大家更清楚知道你的過程。"],["鄭副院長麗君：不會，我們會完整地跟社會說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個我要問的是有多少影響？剛剛院長報告的時候已經說了，多少廠商在放無薪假，可能還有多少影響，我想問說：對於國內的衝擊什麼時候會知道？"],["鄭副院長麗君：產業衝擊政院這邊各部會都非常努力在……"],["黃委員珊珊：什麼時候會知道？"],["鄭副院長麗君：非常努力在提出方案，但是我們談判的確希望越快越好。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在正在發生的「20+N」，衝擊評估有了嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們的衝擊評估在4月……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在！進行式的！"],["鄭副院長麗君：有！我們已經有公布了，而且有各項產品的衝擊評估，包含我們在工業的部分特別提到像工具機、機械等的衝擊比較大……"],["黃委員珊珊：這些報告裡面都有了，副院長，不要浪費我的時間好嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：農業的部分在蝴蝶蘭……"],["黃委員珊珊：下一個！我想問一下，有關你們的談判代表，我們現在看到的是台積電董事長還有黃仁勳都見到川普，我們的談判代表現在到底在跟誰談啊？跟USTR談？"],["鄭副院長麗君：過去幾個月我們的談判對口是美國貿易代表署及商務部，的確，和美方的談判最終必須進行總結會議，但是美方總結會議的型式也有不同的設定……"],["黃委員珊珊：最後都是川普拍板吧！"],["鄭副院長麗君：有關總結會議的型式，美方會提出他們的建議方案來做考量，我方也會就這個型式來予以協商……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在的問題就是可能還有下一個，USTR一直以來認為我們的貿易障礙，也就是剛剛院長說的，他們一直要臺灣放寬相關的食安標準並開放市場，最重要的是要投資美國，這是USTR長期以來對臺灣所認為的貿易障礙。"],["鄭副院長麗君：這就是NTE，長期以來美方每一年都會定期公布各國的貿易障礙。"],["黃委員珊珊：對！對於這些，我要問的是，臺灣的談判紅線在哪裡？我們看到日本講得很清楚，汽車就是他們的談判紅線，韓國方面，牛肉、食安就是他們的談判紅線。我想問一下……"],["鄭副院長麗君：國民健康……"],["黃委員珊珊：副院長，我們的談判紅線是什麼？"],["鄭副院長麗君：糧食安全、國民健康就是我們的原則，我們會……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以具體的內容呢？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們會依這個原則具體跟美方來談判，但是……"],["黃委員珊珊：第一個，我們現在禁止基改用於校園餐食，這點會不會放？"],["鄭副院長麗君：委員，我們正在談判過程當中，我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：那我就唸給大家聽吧！美國說我們雖然開放30月齡以上的美牛進口，但仍禁部分產品與進行嚴格、不科學的邊境查驗；基於對狂牛症的疑慮，限制進口美國牛血產品與牛脂，違反國際標準，而且我們長期以來不讓這些產品進入校園和軍隊，另外就是馬鈴薯和萊劑的問題。這些都是長期以來我們被美國認為的貿易障礙，這次他們有沒有要求把這些放寬？"],["鄭副院長麗君：跟委員報告，的確，各國都會面對美國希望關稅、非關稅貿易障礙的談判範圍，美方每一年都會……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我要說的是，院長，食品安全這件事情就是要讓人民知道……"],["鄭副院長麗君：委員是不是讓我可以回答？因為這些範圍……"],["黃委員珊珊：你剛剛已經回答很多了，好嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：這些範圍的確會再談判，但是我方一定是以……"],["黃委員珊珊：以人民的安全為原則……"],["鄭副院長麗君：以糧食安全、國民健康為原則……"],["黃委員珊珊：就算要放，我們都要知道你換了什麼！"],["鄭副院長麗君：科學依據、國民健康、糧食安全是我們的原則，我們希望我們在既有的……"],["黃委員珊珊：副院長，在這邊不要講空話啦！院長，我只要說，你要放可以，但是你要告訴我們你換了什麼！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，你剛剛說的……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果你要放，不要讓人民的健康受到犧牲！"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛剛說的這幾項都是美方和我國以及其他各國長期以來……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，都在談……"],["卓院長榮泰：長期以來的一些貿易障礙……"],["鄭副院長麗君：它都會公開貿易障礙的項目。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們要知道的是，如果你放，換回什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我說一句良心話，我們在這裡討論這個事情並無助於談判的進行，但是我們會謹守我們的原則……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但是我要說的是，這是人民會關心的事……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我知道。我們謹守……"],["黃委員珊珊：這是人民最關心的，為什麼長期以來變成貿易障礙？就是因為臺灣人民沒有辦法接受在食品上面標示不明，我們不知道我們吃了什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：國人健康、糧食安全……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們只要做清楚的標示，這長期被美國認為我們做貿易限制的部分，這其實是你要去爭取的。"],["鄭副院長麗君：國民健康、管理制度、糧食安全，這些都是我們談判的原則，但是委員，我在這邊……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，它會長期成為貿易障礙，就是因為國內有這樣的壓力。"],["鄭副院長麗君：希望委員能夠了解……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要說的是，副院長，你要把我們的壓力當成你談判的助力。"],["鄭副院長麗君：了解、了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：而不是一味地把這個東西當成要拿去交換的東西，我要說的是，這應該是你談判的助力，這是國內民眾對食品安全最基本的要求，也是如果今天美國真的要我們放什麼，我們要知道，我們換到了什麼？"],["鄭副院長麗君：謝謝委員的建議，我剛剛有重申我們的談判原則，所有談判的結果，我們最後一定送大院來審議，依照條約締結法……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在美中貿易談判延宕了90天，所以我們會不會是因為這樣，美國要先跟中國談，然後再來跟臺灣談？"],["鄭副院長麗君：美中談判延到11月初……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們會不會也因為這樣被耽擱了？"],["鄭副院長麗君：美方的考量，我沒有辦法來代表美方說明，但我方的目標……"],["黃委員珊珊：你覺得它會不會像WTO一樣，就是中國先談完，再來理臺灣？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們就是全力以赴，但我的確沒有辦法代替美方來回答他的考量。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，這次我很擔心的地方，美國人可能會拿臺灣作為所謂美中貿易談判裡面最大的棋子，我相信我們也一定是一個很重要的棋子。第二個部分是，他可能拿著我們跟中國談，不管是軍事或經濟貿易，另外也可能用犧牲掉我們，讓他去換取中國的讓步，這一點，在臺灣我們身為民意代表立場，我們必須要很鄭重的跟兩位說，我覺得國人非常在意這件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是一個主權國家的立場跟美國進行談判……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我們也希望。"],["卓院長榮泰：但美國多方的考量，他考慮其他的因素，這並非我們能夠去主導、去影響的，但我希望對臺灣能夠有更合理、更好的一個稅率。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。最後我有個問題是，在8月23日我們看到一個風傳媒的獨家報導，提到臺灣的關稅籌碼出爐了，而且經濟部的內部資料消息流出，指出我們保證市場全面開放，臺灣企業4年要投資2,500億、對美採購4年之內要投資1,300億，還有10年要達3,000億，最後我們還要給他4,000億的金融服務支持。院長，我看到副院長還是貿易代表有否認，這個消息是空穴來風還是確有其事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有否認了。"],["鄭副院長麗君：這些消息未向經濟部查證，也未向行政院經貿辦公室查證。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是有沒有全面開放市場？"],["鄭副院長麗君：裡面也有一些資訊跟談判情形有所出入，不過因為現在談判還在繼續進行當中，是不是請容我們無法一一向大院做非常詳細的報告？我們也是為了維護最後談判的一個好的結果。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長，投資美國勢不可擋，我看全世界不管是日本、韓國、歐盟都一樣，投資美國有兩種方法，一個是民間，一個是國家，國家對美採購增加，我想這個大家也都支持，有關軍購的部分。另外一個是剛剛講的，不管買美國米買什麼，能夠增加你談判的籌碼，我相信大部分的國人也可以接受。現在的重點是，如果我們要大幅投資美國，上次總統說要成立主權基金會不會是接下來你們投資美國的一個方法？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個跟投資美國、不投資美國完全無關。"],["黃委員珊珊：不會拿來做為有關美國投資，成為我們的一個工具？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，主權基金考慮到現在我們國家的財政能力，我們有能力往這個方向去想，而且這要非常慎重的逐步進行，絕非在一朝一夕、一年、兩年的事情。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請羅美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adcb52f217d3013b01ac0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84af3729683f6b16f89a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:42:36 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經濟安全數位貿易以及投資採購等商業機會我們也有向社會來說明相關的範疇"},{"start":114.127,"end":143.69,"text":"那这里面当然随着谈判的进展那美方会持续性的提出他的期待那尤其美方在各国谈判的过程当中那一如大家也会要求美方也会期待各国要提供这个市场开放所以就有关关税非关税贸易障碍部分的确我方也会磋商不过我们都会我把命题说精准因为时间有限"},{"start":144.27,"end":167.886,"text":"因為賴總統也曾經宣示過我們願意在某一些產業上把我們市場開放那對消費者是加惠的坦白講台灣我們主要的產業是在做汽車零組件整車的那一家公司扶植了那麼多年該成材找成材了現在還在進口中國車所以對消費者或台灣民眾來講"},{"start":169.187,"end":178.877,"text":"整車零關稅我可以降低我的採購的負擔啊對美方來講日本也有要求對韓國也有要求日本是汽車大國"},{"start":180.131,"end":196.516,"text":"他還是要開放所以我覺得這個命題太明顯了那我該問的就是說因為我發現這兩天有一些有一些在評論這個事情的人因為這個點有一些誤會那產生了一些怨言我的題目很簡單針對美國整車免稅來台就是開放市場"},{"start":200.757,"end":225.732,"text":"我們在談判當中這一點到底有沒有觸及未來的可能性是大還是小向委員報告美方的確會期待市場開放那當然我們也會基於產業利益然後國民健康糧食安全來均與討論所以我們也會就這個部分來研商那這當中美車的部分其實除了關稅也有非關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":226.588,"end":253.442,"text":"因為每規車要進來也會涉及相關的安全 空無造影等相相關的標準雙方的制度性的如何的對接所以這個都在談判的範圍裡面在談判的範圍裡面可以跟委員說在談判的範圍裡面那等到我們所有談判抵定之後我們所有的細節一定會向國會跟社會完整的來說明所以這個是有在談判的範圍內"},{"start":255.823,"end":282.602,"text":"因為這先到測案的規範 驗證的標準等等那個是技術問題所以如果有在談判的範圍內也就在總結談判結論出來的時候它就會出現了目前因為我們都在技術性磋商過程大致因為技術性磋商我們才能夠堆疊出最後整個談判的結論總結談判大致上我們在這些範疇都有進行研商但我方還沒達成協議最重要是還沒有進行總結性的會議總結性的會議"},{"start":284.764,"end":305.919,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候要開目前從8月1號回來之後我們經過三次視訊那我們這個視訊現在接下來談判目標第一個再降對等關稅第二爭取不疊加第三因為台灣我們有九成的逆差來自ICT跟半導體這個聯動美方現在正在制定的232關稅的政策所以一併戳傷232"},{"start":307.18,"end":319.631,"text":"那我們這個三次達成一定的共識之後 美方會安排總結性會議所以從8月1號 台灣被放在NXI在NX1裡面之後你們開過三次視訊會議所以這個三次視訊會議就是在朝著總結性會議的進度邁進然後把對等關稅跟232相關的項目有關不疊加以及把對等關稅往下降"},{"start":334.284,"end":360.397,"text":"目前有没有方向我们已经表达了争取但是因为要到这个总结性会议在协商最终的税率的时候才会有一个定案那通常我们在视讯会议是give and take我们表达这样的期望那他一定会提出条件来要怎么样子才能往那个方向迈进谈判是这样因为我们的对口有贸易代表署然后我们会就刚刚我所提的这些范畴"},{"start":361.056,"end":386.208,"text":"還有未來可能雙方要達成協議的這個框架協議逐條逐項的討論那我們也同步的跟商務部來持續就供應鏈的合作因為你是談判的總負責所有的議題都談判完了之後就會來進行總結的會議總結會議就會來議定最後的這個稅率跟所有的條件一併成立所以我在請教你議際這個總結會議"},{"start":389.568,"end":417.682,"text":"会落在九月份吗我们当然希望越快越好就是落在这些你不赶快越快越好那个暂时性的20%冲击就会越大你这边越快不管是232不管是我们的对等关税或者什么东西开放市场要进到台湾你越早厘清我们离圣诞节那个季节很近了他很多东西在这个时候pending在那里其实是对中小企业我想跟委员报告第一个当然"},{"start":418.422,"end":436.653,"text":"我們積極推進談判但談判取決於雙方但我們仍然全力努力希望越快越好那我們希望說能夠爭取稅率再降那第二點是因為談判裡面相關的細節我現在無法逐一的回應也是因為為了維繫最好的談判的結果"},{"start":437.153,"end":461.098,"text":"因為如果說過度揭露相關的條件在最後整體在進行溝通的時候我們國會在監督我國會在監督我都尊重談判的節奏但我現在要問的是我要請教副院長的是你們現在已經從8月1號以後有三次的視訊會議那接下來還會有視訊會議還是接下來就是把各自的文件擬妥準備到下個階段的會議"},{"start":462.345,"end":481.626,"text":"我們三次視訊會是有一定的進度我可以跟委員講那還會再有多的視訊會議嗎然後我們隨時有在聯繫那我們也希望能夠盡快的來進行進入最關鍵的總結會議的階段目前都在持續的延長中那我們也跟美方表達了我們三項的談判的這個目標"},{"start":482.914,"end":502.817,"text":"我們能期望在九月份看到更進一步的訊息嗎時程的確取決於雙方不過美國財政部長Besant他也曾經有對外表達說希望尚未完成談判的國家在十月底前可以完成但是我方希望能夠在此之前越快越好對 因為Besant提十月底嘛"},{"start":503.317,"end":523.105,"text":"那我們希望早一點 只剩9月份嘛因為這個談判還是要花時間的所以從這個時間的落點來看不管這個暫停我們暫時的這個稅率要維持90天或多少天從8月1號開始你們有做了一些進度了那10月份Basin希望都達到結論那大概落點在9月份這個預測"},{"start":524.668,"end":545.794,"text":"希望啦 我只能講期望啦我們希望越快越好我剛才講到整車這塊我覺得這個牽涉到市場秩序如果這一個日本已經是零韓國是零那台灣如果有預計要往這邊邁進的話我覺得要讓消費者當然整個談判過程我們都會參考社會各界的意見"},{"start":546.814,"end":565.874,"text":"然後我們相關部會也有跟相關的產業進行溝通觀望跟期待心理是總體經濟裡面有這兩個變數其實影響很大我希望行政要注意這一點那我也要提醒院長這裡比亞迪或中國其他的電動車輛是不可能讓他來這邊洗產地或者傾銷因為他賣不出去了他倉庫堆了一堆"},{"start":566.775,"end":595.551,"text":"不管是經由泰國或任何第三國要洗進來台灣這個是萬萬不可這個不僅是會影響到談判因為洗產地也會影響到我們國家的國安跟治安我希望經濟部或者我們行政院這一點要很明確的態度我比亞迪不管你要改成任何名字從哪裡來或者其他中國電車你中國的倉庫堆滿碼頭銷不出去台灣絕對不讓你請銷我們基於國安治安也不讓你進來我更不容許你來這邊洗產地"},{"start":596.971,"end":615.785,"text":"這個席產地是川普這一次對等關稅裡面主要的目標之一嘛所以我不曉得我們院長跟經濟部這邊有沒有明確的態度經濟部答覆之前兩個原則第一個在台灣生產的一定要符合我們逐年加嚴的在本地化的這個製造率 自治率本地化的是逐年加嚴"},{"start":616.485,"end":638.216,"text":"第二個無論他中國的產品如何繞道貼牌換牌過來我們都嚴格的管制我們希望這維持的是台灣的產業經濟的安全以及我們在這整個供應鏈上能夠維持現在的地位來經濟部是不是簡單說明一下跟委員報告就是說中國的品牌車不管是從哪一個地方其實我們就是"},{"start":639.056,"end":656.635,"text":"全力的防堵他進到台灣來所以我們是不准他進來的是是是因為人家以前特洛伊木馬還要放一些香檳美酒拐你拖進去我們沒有到你自己花錢買了一堆小木馬進來啦這一點要守住所以我也希望公開呼籲很多的業者現在還在做一些廣告"},{"start":657.556,"end":675.243,"text":"對社會會產生不實的狀況還在置入啦我已經要求經濟部能夠跟業者之談不要做這些誤導性的廣告甚至於有些在遊說在搞置入行銷置入新聞的 揭露來讓社會大眾知道誰在收錢辦事幫忙做遊說我覺得這個透明化"},{"start":675.763,"end":695.303,"text":"大家看得清楚那到底是廣告還是新聞到底是廣告還是遊說背後的力量我覺得行政院這一塊可以印起來把它做揭露資訊的透明揭露嚴格執行我接下來請教院長其他可以請回有關這一次對等關稅談判的農業開放的議題我只提一點"},{"start":696.604,"end":719.112,"text":"我們現在台灣的公糧收購其實我們在立法院常常提到公糧收購都講到本土農業一公斤9塊多或幾塊那這個在農業的議題上公糧收購的價格定太高會影響到自由市場反而對農業不利啦這個我今天不討論這一塊我今天要講的是就我們了解我們的公糧收購除了像台灣的農民收購以外"},{"start":719.952,"end":731.849,"text":"我們也有跟國外買有跟泰國跟美國買是不是農業部部長這邊可以說明我跟委員報告就是在稻米部分當初在加入WTO以後有所謂的配額制那配額是一年是144,720噸"},{"start":735.494,"end":763.577,"text":"這個配額裡面又分一個是政府配額 一個是民間的那政府的部分就是由政府來採購就是您剛才講的由公糧進來我現在講說我們都以前大家國外人都以為公糧收購就是我們這裡正在檢查的稍微放在倉庫裡面都以為是買本產的米其實我們有一塊是因為當年世貿組織加入之後要求是對國外買那我們看到川普總統要求日本開放他的米"},{"start":764.538,"end":793.49,"text":"讓美國米可以賣過去對日本來講米雖然產值不大可是他們本來說是神聖不可侵犯的領域他也開放了就我們現在看起來台灣的公糧收購有買美國米嗎我們一年買幾噸大概一年大概是六萬四千噸左右我現在要問的是如果我們在去美國談判的我們有關公糧收購本來就一定要買公糧一定的配比就要買外國米的話我能不能乾脆就多買美國米"},{"start":795.353,"end":813.828,"text":"不過我跟委員報告就是稻米因為是我們糧食安全非常重要的產品而且我們國內是小農制影響的農民數大概22萬所以在稻米我們還是盡量跟美國溝通就是說稻米是我們糧食安全一個非常重要的那您剛才說的日本的部分是用配額的方式去處理"},{"start":814.448,"end":830.658,"text":"他用配額去買他也是用配額的方式處理但是日本跟台灣不一樣我們能不能在不影響我們本土米本土公糧收購的狀況下在配額上做調整我多買一點美國米把關稅降下來對生產製造業有幫助我也沒影響到容業可是我把配額米"},{"start":831.633,"end":854.962,"text":"多買一點美國這樣會不會違反WTO的規定WTO規定只有下限的部分上限的部分沒有我還是跟委員報告我們還是積極去跟美國溝通但是我們也同時也想了非常多的因應的方法最主要是不會影響到不會衝擊到我們的農民是第一要件的當然 農民是根本那個要保護他"},{"start":856.043,"end":870.084,"text":"我們本來公糧收購就在買外國米在那個比例上我們讓談判代表有至少有個工具可以去談因為公糧收購如果全部買本產米那另外一回事長年來我們都買泰國米"},{"start":871.024,"end":897.439,"text":"有大概一年大概兩萬八千噸左右還有其他國家還有越南米越南米還有日本米這兩塊對我們不太好我的意思是說我們現在談判的時候我不好意思講一些話但我的意思是說在對外採購米的時候有時候美國要求的是一個公平那個產值其實不大我們在配合上調整一下在意識上順了讓我們關稅談判多一點武器其實不壞"},{"start":898.964,"end":913.957,"text":"不轉動維持嗎對 我知道但是政府配額裡面的國家配額是固定的它是比較難調整那剛才說的就是說用其他的方式這一題讓農業部去思考不影響本產米怎麼樣在幫助談判上"},{"start":915.717,"end":935.684,"text":"又符合我們世界貿易組織的規範上去處理然後我最後10秒鐘提醒行政院就是說如果我們對美軍事採購的金額這麼高他們容許商售方式列入貿易赤字的額度計算的話那我們就應該好好精算累一點把它拆開來買一樣的東西但是列入貿易赤字的底下"},{"start":943.202,"end":945.47,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝卓院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時42分）謝謝副院長，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["王委員定宇：另外也請鄭麗君副院長。"],["主席：請鄭副院長備詢。"],["王委員定宇：院長辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好，不會，謝謝，大家都辛苦。"],["王委員定宇：鄭副院長也是啦，因為談判的事情很繁重，你還欠我一次約定，但是國事為重。我現在請教幾個大家比較關心的議題，我覺得在努力的談判過程當中，常常因為保密或者是還在過程當中不便透露，因為這樣導致被誤解，我覺得這個是最冤枉的，所以在可以透明的情形下，儘量透明，讓民眾了解現在遇到什麼狀況。我第一題要問的比較簡單，一直有傳聞說，美國希望臺灣開放整車的市場，即全車的市場，有關美國整車免稅來到臺灣這件事情，到底談判時有沒有觸及？在未來有沒有可能發生？你方便回答到什麼程度我都尊重，是不是請鄭副院長回答一下？"],["鄭副院長麗君：謝謝委員。整個談判過程，我們每一次的實體談判，其實都有向社會說明談判的進程。我們也說明談判的議題觸及關稅、非關稅貿易障礙、貿易便捷化、經濟安全、數位貿易以及投資採購等商業機會，我們也有向社會說明相關的範疇，這裡面當然隨著談判的進展，美方會持續性地提出他的期待，尤其美方在各國談判的過程當中……"],["王委員定宇：不是，鄭副院長，我這一題其實滿精準的……"],["鄭副院長麗君：美方也會期待……"],["王委員定宇：因為日本跟韓國都遇到了嘛……"],["鄭副院長麗君：是，美方也會期待各國要提供市場開放，所以有關關稅、非關稅貿易障礙的部分，的確我方也會磋商，不過，我們都會……"],["王委員定宇：副院長，我把命題說精準，因為時間有限……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們會……"],["王委員定宇：因為賴總統也曾經宣示過，我們願意在某一些產業上，把我們市場開放，對消費者是嘉惠的，坦白講，臺灣主要的產業是在做汽車零組件，整車的那一家公司扶植了那麼多年，該成材早成材了，現在還在進口中國車，所以對消費者或臺灣民眾來講，整車零關稅可以降低我的採購負擔，對美方來講，他對日本有要求，對韓國也有要求。日本是汽車大國，他還是要開放，所以，我覺得這個命題太明顯了。","我問的就是，因為我發現這兩天有一些在評論這個事情的人，因為這個點有一些誤會，產生了一些怨言，我的題目很簡單，針對美國整車免稅來臺，就是開放市場，我們在談判當中，這一點到底有沒有觸及、未來的可能性是大還是小？"],["鄭副院長麗君：向委員報告，美方的確會期待市場開放，當然，我們也會基於產業利益、國民健康、糧食安全來予以討論，所以我們也會就這個部分來研商，這當中美車的部分，除了關稅，也有非關稅貿易障礙，因為美規車要進來也會涉及相關的安全、空汙、噪音……"],["王委員定宇：沒有，車安檢查那是行政程序啦！"],["鄭副院長麗君：其中相關的標準，雙方的制度如何對接，所以這都在談判的範圍裡面……"],["王委員定宇：在未來的半年內或一年內……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我可以跟委員說，這在談判的範圍裡面……"],["王委員定宇：在範圍內。"],["鄭副院長麗君：等到我們所有談判底定之後，我們所有的細節一定會向國會跟社會完整的來說明，因為……"],["王委員定宇：所以這個是有在談判的範圍內？"],["鄭副院長麗君：在範圍之內。"],["王委員定宇：因為這牽到車安的規範、驗證的標準等等，那個是技術問題，所以如果有在談判的範圍內，也就在總結談判結論出來的時候，它就會出現。"],["鄭副院長麗君：目前因為我們都在技術性磋商過程，因為技術性磋商，我們才能夠堆疊出最後整個談判的結果……"],["王委員定宇：那總結談判……"],["鄭副院長麗君：大致上，我們在這些範疇都有進行研商，但我方還沒達成協議最重要是因為還沒有進行總結性的會議。"],["王委員定宇：總結性的會議有沒有預計什麼時候要開？"],["鄭副院長麗君：目前從8月1號回來之後，我們經過3次視訊，我們視訊接下來的談判目標：第一個再降對等關稅，第二爭取不疊加，第三因為臺灣有九成的逆差來自ICT跟半導體，連動美方現在正在制定的232關稅的政策，所以一併磋商232，我們這三者達成一定的共識之後，美方會安排總結性會議……"],["王委員定宇：所以從8月1號，臺灣被放在NX1裡面之後，你們開過3次視訊會議。"],["鄭副院長麗君：3次視訊會議……"],["王委員定宇：所以這3次視訊會議……"],["鄭副院長麗君：就是在朝著總結性會議的進度邁進，然後把對等關稅跟232相關的項目一併談。"],["王委員定宇：有關不疊加，以及把對等關稅往下降……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們也都表達了爭取。"],["王委員定宇：目前有沒有方向？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們已經表達了爭取，但是因為要到總結性會議，在協商最終稅率的時候才會有一個定案，但是3項目標……"],["王委員定宇：通常我們在視訊會議是give and take，我們表達這樣的期望，那他一定會提出條件來，要怎麼樣子才能往那個方向邁進嘛！"],["鄭副院長麗君：談判是這樣，因為我們的對口有貿易代表署，我們會就剛剛我所提的這些範疇，還有未來可能雙方要達成的框架協議逐條逐項的討論，我們也同步的跟商務部持續就供應鏈的合作、232條款溝通……"],["王委員定宇：因為你是談判的總負責……"],["鄭副院長麗君：所有的議題都談判完了之後，就會來進行總結的會議，總結會議就會來議定最後的稅率跟所有的條件一併成立。"],["王委員定宇：最後的conclusion就在那裡。所以我再請教你，總結會議預計會落在9月份嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們當然希望越快越好，就是如果在這些議題都協商有共識的話……"],["王委員定宇：因為如果你不趕快，那個暫時性的20%衝擊就會越大，你這邊越快，不管是232，不管是我們的對等關稅，或者什麼東西開放市場要進到臺灣，你越早釐清，我們離聖誕節那個季節很近了，很多東西在這個時候pending在那裡，其實對中小企業的影響很大。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想跟委員報告，第一個，當然，我們積極推進談判，但談判取決於雙方，但我們仍然全力努力，希望越快越好，我們希望能夠爭取稅率再降。第二點，因為談判裡面相關的細節，我現在無法逐一的回應，也是因為為了維繫最好的談判結果，如果過度揭露相關的條件，最後整體在進行溝通的時候，是不是有可能影響談判的結果？我們要維護最終談判的結果。"],["王委員定宇：我們國會在監督，我都尊重談判的節奏，但我現在要請教副院長的是，你們現在從8月1日以後，已經有3次的視訊會議了。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對。"],["王委員定宇：接下來還會有視訊會議？還是把各自的文件擬妥後，準備到下個階段的會議了？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們這3次視訊會議是有一定的進度，我可以跟委員這樣報告……"],["王委員定宇：還會再有多的視訊會議嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們隨時也有在跟美方聯繫，也希望能夠儘快的來進入最關鍵的總結會議階段，目前都在持續的研商中，我們也跟美方表達了我們三項的談判目標。"],["王委員定宇：我們能期望在9月份看到更進一步的訊息嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：時程的確取決於雙方，美國財政部長Bessent也曾經有對外表達：希望尚未完成談判的國家在10月底前可以完成。但是我方希望能夠在此之前，越快越好。"],["王委員定宇：對，因為Bessent提10月底嘛！我們希望早一點，大概只剩9月份嘛！"],["鄭副院長麗君：更早。"],["王委員定宇：因為談判還是要花時間的，所以從這個時間的落點來看，不管我們暫時的稅率要維持30天或多少天，從8月1日開始，你們有做了一些進度了，而Bessent希望在10月份都能達到結論，預測大概落點會在9月份，希望啦！我只能講期望。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們希望越快越好……"],["王委員定宇：我剛才講到整車這塊，我覺得這個牽涉到市場秩序，這個關稅日本已經是零，韓國也是零，而臺灣如果有預計要往這邊邁進的話，我覺得要讓消費者……"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，當然整個談判過程，我們都會參考社會各界的意見，而相關部會也有跟相關的產業進行溝通。"],["王委員定宇：因為觀望跟期待心理這兩個變數其實在總體經濟裡影響很大，我希望行政院要注意這一點。我也要提醒院長，比亞迪或中國其他的電動車輛，我們是不可能讓他們來這邊洗產地或者傾銷的，因為他們賣不出去的，他們倉庫堆了一堆，不管是經由泰國或任何第三國要洗進來臺灣，這個是萬萬不可，這不僅是會影響到談判，因為洗產地也會影響到我們國家的國安跟資安。我希望經濟部或者行政院這一點要有很明確的態度，比亞迪不管要改成任何名字，從哪裡來，或者其他中國電車，中國的倉庫堆滿碼頭銷不出去，臺灣絕對不會讓他們傾銷，我們基於國安及資安也不讓他們進來，我更不容許他們來這邊洗產地。這個洗產地是川普這一次對等關稅裡面主要的目標之一，所以我不曉得我們院長跟經濟部有沒有明確的態度？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部答復之前，我先回復有兩個原則：第一個，在臺灣生產的一定要符合我們逐年加嚴的在本地的製造率、自製率；第二個，不論中國的產品如何繞道貼牌、換牌過來，我們都嚴格的管制。我們希望這維持的是臺灣的產業、經濟的安全，以及我們在這整個供應鏈上能夠維持現在的地位。至於細部，我請經濟部說明。"],["王委員定宇：請經濟部是不是簡單說明一下？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，有關中國的品牌車，不管是從哪一個地方來，其實我們是全力的防堵他們進到臺灣。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們是不准他們進來的。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為人家以前特洛伊木馬還要放一些香檳、美酒拐你拖進去，我們沒有道理自己花錢買了一堆小木馬進來，這一點要守住！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我也希望公開呼籲，很多的業者現在還在做一些廣告，會對社會產生不實的狀況……"],["王委員定宇：還在置入……"],["卓院長榮泰：我已經要求經濟部能夠跟業者直談，不要做這些誤導性的廣告。"],["王委員定宇：甚至於有些在遊說、在搞置入行銷、置入新聞的要來揭露，讓社會大眾知道誰在收錢辦事及幫忙做遊說，我覺得這個要透明化，讓大家看得清楚，到底是廣告還是新聞？到底是廣告還是遊說背後的力量？我覺得行政院這一塊可以硬起來，把它做資訊的透明揭露。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會嚴格執行。"],["王委員定宇：其他官員可以請回。接下來，請教院長有關這一次對等關稅談判農業開放的議題，我只提一點，我們現在臺灣的公糧收購，其實我們在立法院常常提到公糧收購，都講到本土農業一公斤九塊多或幾塊。這個在農業的議題上，公糧收購的價格訂太高會影響到自由市場，反而對農業不利啦！我今天不討論這一塊。我現在要講的是，就我們了解我們的公糧收購，除了向臺灣的農民收購以外，我們也有跟國外買，有跟泰國及美國買，是不是請農業部部長可以說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，在稻米部分，當初在加入WTO以後，有所謂的配額制，配額是一年14萬4,720噸，這個配額裡面又分為政府配額和民間配額，政府的部分就是由政府來採購，就是您剛才講的由公糧進來。"],["王委員定宇：因為時間的關係，我現在講的是以前國人都以為，公糧收購就是這些種稻的民眾在稻子收成後放進倉庫裡面，都以為是買本產的米，其實我們有一塊是因為當年加入世貿組織之後，要求對國外買。我們看到川普總統要求日本開放，讓美國米可以賣過去，對日本來講米雖然產值不大，可是他們本來說是神聖不可侵犯的領域，卻也開放了。就現在看起來，臺灣的公糧收購有買美國米嘛！我們一年買幾噸？"],["陳部長駿季：1年大概是6萬4,000噸左右。"],["王委員定宇：我現在要問的是，如果我們去美國談判，有關公糧收購本來就是一定的配比要買外國米的話，能不能乾脆多買美國米？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為稻米是我們糧食安全非常重要的產品，而且國內是小農制，影響的農民數大概22萬，所以在稻米方面，我們還是儘量跟美國溝通。您剛才說日本的部分是用配額的方式去處理……"],["王委員定宇：對！它用配額去買。"],["陳部長駿季：它是用配額的方式處理，但是日本跟臺灣不一樣。"],["王委員定宇：我們能不能在不影響本土公糧收購的狀況下，在配額上做調整，多買一點美國米，把關稅降下來，對生產製造業有幫助，也沒影響到農業。可是把配額米多買一點美國的，這樣會不會違反WTO的規定？"],["陳部長駿季：WTO只有規定下限的部分，上限的部分沒有，跟委員報告，我們還是積極跟美國溝通，但是同時也想了非常多的因應方法，最主要是不會影響到、不會衝擊到我們的農民，這是第一要件。"],["王委員定宇：當然農民是根本，要保護他，但我是說，本來公糧收購就有在買外國米，在比例上我們讓談判代表至少有個工具可以去談，因為公糧收購如果全部買本產米，那是另外一回事，長年來我們都有買泰國米嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：有，1年大概2萬8,000噸左右。"],["王委員定宇：還有沒有其他國家？"],["陳部長駿季：還有越南米、日本米。"],["王委員定宇：這兩個國家對我們也不太好啊！我的意思是我們現在談判的時候，我不好意思講一些話啦！但我的意思是在對外採購米的時候，有時候美國要求的是一個公平，那個產值其實不大，我們在配額上調整一下、在意思上順了，讓我們在關稅談判上多一點武器，其實不壞，部長懂我意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道！但是政府配額裡面的國家配額是固定的，比較難調整，剛才說的就是用其他的方式，我們也……"],["王委員定宇：這一題讓農業部去思考，在不影響本產米下怎麼樣幫助談判，又符合世界貿易組織的規範去處理。最後10秒鐘我提醒行政院，如果我們對美軍事採購的金額這麼高，他們容許商售方式列入貿易赤字的額度計算的話，我們就應該好好精算，累一點，把它拆開來，買一樣的東西，但是列入貿易赤字的抵銷，如果可以的話，對我們降低赤字也是有幫助的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們盡力來爭取這樣的計算，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時8分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adcf192dd0ae402cd7fc0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84af280ecaa5b1202abe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"10:26:25 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有請卓院長"},{"start":30.939,"end":47.82,"text":"陳委員好院長好 院長您從12號到明天26號短短兩週當中您要來立法院做六個專題報告辛苦院長了謝謝 這是我們行政的責任我希望能夠把議題講得清楚大家一起來支持"},{"start":48.16,"end":75.008,"text":"我自己也在不到一周當中就跟院長您做這個詢答兩次我想國事如馬擺世待局就是大家辛苦了院長今年四月台灣正值清明節那美國宣布了新的關稅政策四月四日的時候您帶領行政院的同仁開了一個記者會那時候您就知道美國提高關稅的一個重要目的就是要打掉紅色供應鏈"},{"start":76.508,"end":96.715,"text":"所以在行政院的記者會上您提到台灣過去幾年推出的投資台灣三大方案吸引台商回國來投資或是前往東南亞、歐洲或是美洲設廠目的是要符合非紅供應鏈的產業安全需求"},{"start":97.435,"end":123.309,"text":"也就是說除了分散風險之外就是要去除打掉紅色供應鏈我相信行政院知道美方川普總統非常重視這一塊這件事情所以你們才會特別提出來我想先請教卓院長我這樣的理解正確嗎沒有錯 後來也證實在雙方技術性挫傷裡面的一項就是經濟安全他們認為很重要 尤其台灣在"},{"start":124.895,"end":141.214,"text":"地緣政治第一線跟中國非常的接近有很多的產品互相交流密切所以他希望台灣能夠守住這個民主供應鏈的第一發道防線那到目前為止行政院對於去除紅色供應鏈做了哪些努力有沒有成效呢"},{"start":142.026,"end":167.465,"text":"我們有事前事後事中各項包括財政部包括經濟部的一些措施事前我們要加強的審查事中我們要加強的成組成效呢成組我們現在這個成效在目前來看我們一步一步達到的階段性所以現在很多的廠商從中國離開他可能去到南向國家"},{"start":167.935,"end":182.125,"text":"也有可能就回到台灣來那這個就變成我們在未來的供應鏈上會比較安定院長我特別去搜尋一下您對於有關紅色供應鏈的發言今年3月13號您說脫離紅色供應鏈很快就會看到實際作為"},{"start":183.486,"end":207.571,"text":"還說要建立一個民主的產業供應鏈要讓全世界有門國家能夠脫離紅色的供應鏈建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈這些口號聽起來非常的響亮建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈但實際上台灣各個產業對於紅色供應鏈的緊密程度跟脫離程度請問行政院有掌握嗎"},{"start":208.541,"end":233.592,"text":"我們很多的產業各不同的產業包括工具機的產業裡面它還是有過去傳統來有一些中國的零組件院長的意思是說你們掌握我們都有到地方去瞭解那我們希望這個事情我們很希望能夠展現出來一個具體的措施跟進度但是我們也要協助廠商來做市場或是整個供應鏈的一個調整或轉移"},{"start":234.072,"end":241.859,"text":"其實我們財政部跟經濟部在進出口的一些資訊的掌握其實都有針對一些特別異常的一些從大陸進來的產品做一些監控"},{"start":257.293,"end":275.74,"text":"我接下來會有資料請教坦白說這是一個可能會很辛苦甚至很痛苦的一個過程甚至會有壓力會有流失選票的壓力但是我不需要說執政者就是要擔當就是要擔當這樣的事情那請問院長脫離紅色供應鏈的目標什麼時候可以達成你有這個時程或時間點嗎"},{"start":277.622,"end":295.051,"text":"我們會照目前在財政部事前事中事後嚴審的這個方式把他的數據都找出來他審查了多少個這個廠商找到多少貨品我們會循序的去找到他的源頭來改變這個事實那這個目前在進行當中"},{"start":296.011,"end":322.477,"text":"我查詢了行政院各部會最近一次在立法院進行和紅色供應鏈相關的專題報告我發現上一次是2021年經濟委員會有安排相關的議程我拜讀了經濟部國發會國安局還有陸委會的報告很多報告都在談甲外資爭中資中資挖角我國的人才等等其中國發會他的報告裡面提到"},{"start":324.037,"end":349.822,"text":"積極協助台商回流加速供應鏈的重組進一步強化對抗紅色供應鏈的產業動態動能還有要形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈請問院長形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈從2019年開始啟動的台商回流您認為做到了嗎好幾年了"},{"start":351.26,"end":352.509,"text":"我們請國發會來講一下現在的進展"},{"start":354.778,"end":381.589,"text":"我想我們推動台商回流的這個方案裡面最重要就是希望我們在中國大陸的廠商可以回到台灣來生產那我們投資台灣三大方案推動以後我發現其實伺服器還有我們電子五哥的很多的企業都回到台灣來生產然後建立出台灣自主的產業供應鏈是有進度的嗎是的現在已經有兩兆多的投資回到台灣"},{"start":382.409,"end":403.82,"text":"但是我想要跟院長和大家說明我實際看到說可以說是沒有上週諮詢我也有引用這段話我指出這個報導工具機大佬也就是台灣工具機繼林組建工會的名譽理事長許文憲他這樣說下面都是他講的話美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造要各國去除紅色供應鏈"},{"start":404.76,"end":418.905,"text":"結果台灣卻是連工具機組產業都大量使用紅色供應鏈來降低跟零組件來降低它的製造成本對美國來說這是他說的話台灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者"},{"start":420.345,"end":435.362,"text":"獲利者只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈的話美國對台灣藉由關稅的制裁是不會停止的台灣送再多的台積電給美國也是沒有用我今天再請教院長一次您同意許理事長的看法嗎"},{"start":436.292,"end":463.57,"text":"跟委員報告跟委員報告其實徐理事長他本身他也是經營工具機的一個先進你同意他的看法嗎其實他這一席話在工具機的內部也引起了很多的一個討論那事實上我們國產的工具機的這些業者大部分用的都還是以我們國內的這個工具機業者他所生產的這個MIT的這個產品為主所以我想這個部分"},{"start":464.891,"end":486.052,"text":"我要談的是說政府如果沒有處理的話斷掉我國各產業的紅色供應鏈的問題還有零組件取緻紅色供應鏈的嚴重的問題行政院過去說的行訴上中下游的供應鏈就是一個空話就是一個口號治國而且台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合業界為了節省成本"},{"start":486.933,"end":504.738,"text":"那從紅色供應鏈帶上去的領導見報告委員這句話我覺得我們修正一下台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合這句話絕對不是正確這樣子會讓我們在未來對國際非常難以交代美方透過AIT透過美國在來協會他們這些資訊掌握得一清二楚"},{"start":505.518,"end":526.911,"text":"但是沒有說台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合我們就是知道過去傳統上有一些零組件會用到所以我們現在極力在改變這個事件你沒有過苦沉舟的決心去改變這個問題那我想美國降低台灣關稅這個意願就非常低啦所以我還是再請教您一次請問你的目標何時能夠達成呢"},{"start":528.24,"end":553.246,"text":"我們在跟美方談判的時候 談判團隊當談到經濟安全的時候都會把我們現在包括財政部以及國發會剛剛所提的數據都會跟美國表示我們努力的過程是這樣子我們來看一下數字鄭州市 我讀到政責新聞日本今年7月對美出口額跟去年7月同期相比下滑了10.1%請問院長您覺得這對台灣是個警訊嗎"},{"start":557.313,"end":571.765,"text":"世界任何國家經濟情勢的變化我們都會注意日本掉了10.1%院長您知道台灣今年7月對美出國總額跟去年同期相比您知道是增加還是下降呢我們應該是增加的"},{"start":575.058,"end":601.924,"text":"請院長看這個數字我去查了官網網站上的統計數字台灣今年7月跟去年同期相比增幅達62.8%去年7月出口的美國總值是114.5億美元今年7月是186.45億美元和日本的衰退下滑對比台灣反而是增加的但是我想請問院長您認為台灣這樣的成績亮眼嗎你滿意嗎"},{"start":604.312,"end":621.287,"text":"我們對產業的努力非常的肯定但是這個原因就在於美國需要高度的很多AI產品台灣從大陸中國回來之後的廠商從台灣出去都算在台灣的這個產值裡面這個就是造成雙方現在關係必須要談的事情"},{"start":621.647,"end":635.836,"text":"看到的是單一的數字我再請你看總體的數字上一屆簡報是7月同期增加62.8%看起來成績不錯但是如果你把這個相關數字放在總體來看從今年1月到7月跟同期相比"},{"start":636.756,"end":648.472,"text":"我覺得院長你頭也沒要燒因為事實上從今年1月下旬川普就任總統以後台灣出國到美國的總值就開始增加2月增加了65.62%一點都沒有輸給7月但是4月2號"},{"start":653.118,"end":668.182,"text":"川普宣布新的關稅政策後當月的出口總值就只掉到了只增加29.45%可是五月跟六月請院長看卻飆升到87.31%跟90.88%院長認為為什麼五月六月會有這個狀況呢當然四月大家存在一種觀望的態度後來之後"},{"start":677.588,"end":699.586,"text":"可能對方的需求也增加了希望在趕一個時間點上能夠盡量把關稅在比較大家可以預測的情況底下貨品能夠出去所以造成這樣一個所謂搶單塞港的問題答案 我認為個人答案是因為4月9號川普宣布說延後90天實施嘛所以這個業者趕緊趕工啊這個生產出口到美國"},{"start":700.347,"end":720.149,"text":"但是在7月的時候這個數字雖然比同期是增加62.8可是如果你要跟前兩個月相比5月跟6月它開始下滑那你看到這樣的現象跟數字我認為台灣如果真的被課以20%加N的高關稅那出口美國種子勢必會直直落啊請問院長你怎麼解讀這個數字"},{"start":722.113,"end":738.701,"text":"用一個月兩個月三個月個別的調整的數字來看我想不夠精準那我們現在希望能夠跟對美的談判在談判代表團的努力下盡快的穩定下來只有穩定下來我們才能把我們的策略措施能夠全面展開"},{"start":739.481,"end":750.233,"text":"這個數字就是剛剛副總召要你帶頭在床頭看每個月的變化當然是有的非常重要的數字那有關美國關稅衝擊我還是要談到工具機產業有許多勞工受到影響 報載工具機領域有勞斯萊斯支撐的百德基建"},{"start":758.261,"end":776.615,"text":"他已經開始做這個做事休三的無薪假雖然事後百德機械強調訂單調整已經恢復正常的工時可是台中市勞工局卻說業者從8月15日送出來的這個減班休息申請沒有撤回 院長沒有撤回"},{"start":777.415,"end":805.711,"text":"同一篇報導台中的經濟董事長黃明和透露他的下游上中下百家的這個協力廠都淪陷了他不是坐四修三就是坐三修四那個百德董事長謝端木也說他們國內許多客戶的終端產品仍然是以出口美國為主很難擺脫關稅的衝擊請問行政院對於工具機業者的減班休息無薪假"},{"start":806.391,"end":822.103,"text":"掌握到什麼程度呢?檢辦休息無論是因景氣或因關稅勞動部都持續 而且是主動在訪視那面臨這樣的衝擊 行政院怎麼因應 怎麼協助 怎麼輔導請黃部長說明還要去組紅色供應院呢?跟陳委員說明 其實的確工具機是現在幾個產業裡面會比較辛苦的一個產業 這是事實"},{"start":830.748,"end":852.807,"text":"那也是我們看到了現在幾個產業現在減班休息的狀況所以勞動部我們也提出了一個強化版的雇用安定措施讓減班休息的勞工他可能會有這個他不能無薪喔我還要再強調是不能夠無薪我們法規上面是不能無薪的可是他的這個薪資的差額我們會來補貼從五成變成七成"},{"start":855.809,"end":872.082,"text":"這些是警訊你要去面對未來大家說有那麼多的未知無知到現在大家都還不清楚每一個減班休息的廠商他來通報我們都會主動的聯繫跟主動的訪視所以每一家我們都了解他的狀況"},{"start":872.782,"end":894.441,"text":"我想請教卓院長 臺灣面臨關稅大戰產業升級轉型 大力發展AI供電穩定是一個非常重要議題重啟核三的公投結果投票率雖然低但434萬張同意票比起151萬張不同意票高達三倍有別於民進黨緊抱數十年的反非核家園神主牌"},{"start":895.081,"end":921.94,"text":"這是台灣的新的主流民意我相信也是賴政府要的否則賴總統也不會在第一時間說不排除先進核能即刻請裁定進行體檢等等童子賢董事長也說公投結果已經足以彰顯民意期待政府要務實接受這是符合科學趨勢而且也不違背民主進步請問院長您能接受重啟核三的新民意嗎還是你的選擇會跟賴總統不一樣呢"},{"start":924.822,"end":946.592,"text":"對新核能技術的討論我已經講過很多很多次總統也講過很多很多次不是昨天前天才講的雖然公投雖然公投的結果雖然公投的結果對政府不產生任何的拘束力但是我們已經依照核管法的裡面的規定核安會已經提出了第一個審查辦法我們已經依照"},{"start":950.094,"end":950.395,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（10時26分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長好。院長，您從12號到明天（26號）短短兩週當中要來立法院做6個專題報告，辛苦院長了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，這是我們行政的責任，我希望能夠把議題講得清楚，大家一起來支持。"],["陳委員昭姿：我自己也在不到一週當中跟院長詢答兩次，我想國事如麻、百事待舉，大家辛苦了。","院長，今年4月臺灣正值清明節，美國宣布了新的關稅政策，4月4日的時候，您帶領行政院的同仁開了一個記者會，那時候您就知道，美國提高關稅的一個重要目的，就是要打掉紅色供應鏈，所以在行政院的記者會上，您提到臺灣過去幾年推出的投資臺灣三大方案，吸引臺商回國來投資，或是前往東南亞、歐洲或是美洲設廠，目的是要符合非紅供應鏈的產業安全需求，也就是說，除了分散風險之外，就是要去除、打掉紅色供應鏈。我相信行政院知道美方川普總統非常重視這一塊、這件事情，所以你們才會特別提出來。我想先請教卓院長，我這樣的理解正確嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，後來也證實，在雙方技術性磋商裡面的一項就是經濟安全，他們列為很重要，尤其臺灣在地緣政治第一線，跟中國非常接近，又有很多的產品互相交流密切，所以他希望臺灣能夠守住這個民主供應鏈的第一道防線。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝院長。我請教院長，到目前為止，行政院對於去除紅色供應鏈做了哪些努力？有沒有成效？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有事前、事後、事中各項包括財政部、包括經濟部的一些措施，事前我們要加強審查，事中我們要加強……"],["陳委員昭姿：成效呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在這個成效，在目前來看，我們一步一步達到階段性，所以現在很多廠商從中國離開，他可能去到南向國家，也有可能就回到臺灣來，這個就變成我們在未來的供應鏈上會比較安定。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我特別去搜尋一下您對於有關紅色供應鏈的發言，今年3月13號，您說脫離紅色供應鏈，很快就會看到實際作為，還說要建立一個民主的產業供應鏈，要讓全世界的友盟國家能夠脫離紅色的供應鏈，建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈。這些口號聽起來非常的響亮，建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈，但實際上，臺灣各個產業對於紅色供應鏈的緊密程度跟脫離程度，請問行政院有掌握嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很多產業，各不同的產業，包括工具機的產業，過去傳統以來還是有一些中國的零組件……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長的意思是說你們都有相當的掌握……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都有到地方去了解，這個事情我們很希望能夠展現出來一個具體的措施跟進度，但是我們也要協助廠商作市場或是整個供應鏈的調整或轉移。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，老實說，口號治國是容易……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是口號，都已經在做，經濟部能夠說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是如果要落實、如果要執行很辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是口號。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實財政部跟經濟部在進出口的資訊掌握，都有針對一些特別異常從大陸進來的產品進行監控。"],["陳委員昭姿：我接下來會有一些資料請教。坦白說，這是一個可能會很辛苦，甚至很痛苦的過程，甚至會有壓力，會有流失選票的壓力，但是我必須要說，執政者就是要擔當這樣的事情。","請問院長，脫離紅色供應鏈的目標什麼時候可以達成？你有時程或時間點嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會照目前在財政部事前、事中、事後嚴審的這個方式，把它的數據都找出來，審查了多少廠商、找到多少貨品，我們會循序地去找到它的源頭，來改變這個事實，這個目前在進行當中。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我查詢了行政院各部會最近一次在立法院進行和紅色供應鏈相關的專題報告，我發現上一次是2021年在經濟委員會，有安排相關的議程，我拜讀了經濟部、國發會、國安局，還有陸委會的報告，很多報告都在談假外資真中資、中資挖角我國的人才等等。其中國發會的報告裡面提到：積極協助臺商回流，加速供應鏈重組，進一步強化對抗紅色供應鏈的產業動能，形塑完整的上、中、下游產業供應鏈。請問院長，形塑完整的上、中、下游產業供應鏈，從2019年開始啟動的臺商回流，您認為做到了嗎？好幾年了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請國發會來講一下現在的進展。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好，我們推動臺商回流的方案裡面……"],["陳委員昭姿：請簡單說明。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：好。最重要就是希望我們在中國大陸的廠商可以回到臺灣來生產，我們投資臺灣三大方案推動以後，我發現其實伺服器，還有我們電子五哥，很多企業都回到臺灣來生產，然後建立起臺灣自主的產業供應鏈。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你認為是有進度的嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。現在已經有兩兆多的投資回到臺灣。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我想要跟院長和大家說明，我實際看到的可以說是沒有！上週質詢我也有引用這段話，我指出這個報導，工具機大老，也就是台灣工具機暨零組件公會名譽理事長許文憲這樣說，下面都是他講的話喔！美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造，要各國去除紅色供應鏈，結果臺灣卻是連工具機產業都大量使用「紅色供應鏈」零組件來降低它的製造成本。這是他說的話，對美國來說，臺灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者、獲利者，只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈的話，美國對臺灣藉由關稅的制裁是不會停止的，臺灣送再多的台積電給美國也是沒有用。我今天再請教院長一次，您同意許理事長的看法嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，許理事長本身也是經營工具機的一個先進，其實他的這一席話……"],["陳委員昭姿：您同意他的看法嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：其實他這一席話在工具機的內部也引起了很多討論，事實上，我們國產的工具機業者大部分用的都還是以我們國內工具機業者所生產的MIT產品為主，所以我想這個部分已經在……"],["陳委員昭姿：我要談的就是政府如果沒有處理、斷掉我國各產業紅色供應鏈的這個問題，還有零組件取自紅色供應鏈的嚴重問題，那行政院過去說的形塑上、中、下游產業供應鏈就是一個空話，就是一個口號治國！而且臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合，業界為了節省成本，從紅色供應鏈大量取得零組件……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這句話我覺得我們修正一下，臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合這句話絕對不是正確，這樣子會讓我們在未來對國際非常難以交代喔！"],["陳委員昭姿：美方透過AIT（美國在台協會）對這些資訊掌握得一清二楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是沒有說臺灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合，我們就是知道過去傳統上有一些零組件會用到，所以我們現在極力在改變這個事件。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果行政院沒有破釜沉舟的決心去改變這個問題，我想美國將降低臺灣關稅的意願就非常低。所以我還是再請教您一次，請問你的目標何時能夠達成呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟美方談判的時候，談判團隊當談到經濟安全的時候，都會把我們現在包括財政部以及國發會剛剛所提的數據跟美國表示，我們努力的過程是這樣子。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我們來看一下數字，上週四我讀到這則新聞，日本今年7月對美出口額跟去年7月同期相比下滑了10.1%。請問院長，您覺得這對臺灣是個警訊嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：世界任何國家經濟情勢的變化，我們都會注意。"],["陳委員昭姿：日本掉了10.1%。院長，那麼臺灣今年7月對美出口總額跟去年同期相比，您知道是增加還是下降呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應該是增加。"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長看這個數字，我去查了關貿網站上的統計數字，臺灣今年7月跟去年同期相比增幅達62.8%，去年7月出口美國總值是114.51億美元；今年7月是186.45億美元，和日本的衰退下滑對比，臺灣反而是增加的。但是我想請問院長，您認為臺灣這樣的成績亮眼嗎？你滿意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對產業的努力非常地肯定，但是這個原因就在於美國高度需要很多的AI產品，臺灣從中國回來之後的廠商，從臺灣出去都算在臺灣的產值裡面，這就是造成雙方現在的關係必須要談的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，您剛剛看到的是單一數字，我再請你看總體的數字。上一頁簡報是7月同期增加62.8%，看起來成績不錯，但是如果你把相關數字放在總體來看，從今年1月到7月跟同期相比，我覺得院長，你會「頭殼抱咧燒」，因為事實上從今年1月下旬川普就任總統以後，臺灣出口到美國的總值就開始增加，2月增加了65.62%，一點都沒有輸給7月，但是4月2號川普宣布新的關稅政策後，當月的出口總值就只增加29.45%，可是5月跟6月，請院長看，卻飆升到87.31%跟90.88%。院長認為為什麼5月、6月會有這個狀況？為什麼會飆升？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然4月大家存在一種觀望的態度，之後可能對方的需求也增加了，希望在趕一個時間點上，能夠儘量在關稅大家可以預測的情況底下貨品能夠出去，所以造成所謂搶單、塞港的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，我個人認為答案是，因為4月9號川普宣布延後90天實施嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以業者趕緊趕工生產出口到美國，在7月的時候這個數字雖然比同期增加62.8%，可是如果你要跟前兩個月（5月跟6月）相比，它開始下滑，你看到這樣的現象，我認為臺灣如果真的被課以20%加N的高關稅，出口美國總值勢必會直直落啊！請問院長，你怎麼解讀這個數字？"],["卓院長榮泰：用1個月、2個月、3個月，個別調整的數字來看，我想不夠精準，我們現在希望對美的談判，在談判代表團的努力下能夠儘快地穩定下來，只有穩定下來才能夠把我們的策略、措施全面展開。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，這個數字就是剛剛傅總召要你帶回去放在床頭看的數字……"],["卓院長榮泰：是啦，但是每個月的變化當然是有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：這也是非常重要的數字。有關美國關稅衝擊，我還是要談到工具機產業，有許多勞工受到影響，報載工具機領域有勞斯萊斯之稱的百德機械，它已經開始做四休三的無薪假，雖然事後百德機械強調訂單調整已經恢復正常的工時，可是臺中市勞工局卻說業者從8月15日送出來的減班休息申請沒有撤回。院長，沒有撤回喔！同一篇報導，台中精機的董事長黃明和透露，他的下游上百家協力廠都淪陷，不是做四休三，就是做三休四；百德董事長謝瑞木也說：他們國內許多客戶的終端產品，仍然是以出口美國為主，很難擺脫關稅的衝擊。請問行政院對於工具機業者的減班休息、無薪假，掌握到什麼程度呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：減班休息不論是因景氣或因關稅，勞動部都持續而且主動在訪視，是不是請洪部長能夠說明？"],["陳委員昭姿：這樣的衝擊，行政院怎麼因應、怎麼協助及怎麼輔導？"],["卓院長榮泰：請洪部長說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：還要去除紅色供應鏈呢！"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，其實工具機的確是現在幾個產業裡面會比較辛苦的一個產業，這是事實。我們也看到幾個產業現在減班休息的狀況，所以勞動部也提出了一個強化版的僱用安定措施，讓減班休息的勞工，他不能無薪哦！我還是要再強調是不能夠無薪的，法規上面是不能無薪的，可是他薪資的差額，我們會來補貼，從五成變成七成……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這些是警訊，你要去面對啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：大家說未來有那麼多未知、無知，到現在大家都還不清楚……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，每一個減班休息的廠商來通報，我們都會主動聯繫跟主動訪視，所以每一家我們都了解他的狀況。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，謝謝你。我想請教卓院長，臺灣面臨關稅大戰，產業升級轉型、大力發展AI，供電穩定是一個非常重要的議題，重啟核三的公投結果，投票率雖然低，但434萬張同意票哦！比起151萬張不同意票高達三倍，有別於民進黨緊抱數十年的非核家園神主牌，這是臺灣新的主流民意，我相信也是賴政府要的，否則賴總統也不會在第一時間說，不排除先進核能，即刻請台電進行體檢等等。童子賢董事長也說，公投結果已經足以彰顯民意，期待政府要務實接受，這是符合科學趨勢，而且也不違背民主進步。請問院長，您能接受重啟核三的新民意嗎？還是你的選擇會跟賴總統不一樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：對新核能技術的討論，我已經講過很多很多次，總統也講過很多很多次，不是昨天、前天才講的，雖然公投的結果……"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長面對民意。"],["卓院長榮泰：雖然公投的結果對政府不產生任何的拘束力，但是我們已經依照核管法裡面的規定，核安會已經提出了第一個審查辦法……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們準備好啦，立法院幫你們準備好啦，給你們台階下啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經依照兩個必須的第一必須，核安會已經提出了它的程序問題，緊接著下去……"],["陳委員昭姿：請院長要面對民意……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說我尊重公投，我也相信科學，我們一切以科學為依據，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","接下來請王定宇委員質詢，王委員質詢完畢後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163595","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc5778f0b0f5cbb4a0c0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84aff0a2f51fd5bd8c715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:40:15 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學委員 林委員 三位委員好卓院長好經過了整整將近一年的時間整個國家空轉"},{"start":61.24,"end":89.551,"text":"不斷地衝刺從總統 院長 部會首長執政者的國會議員到執政者的所有的宣傳工具一連當中不斷地攻擊在野黨所謂中共同路人 所謂共匪立委讓台灣不斷地撕裂 撕裂再撕裂"},{"start":90.558,"end":119.709,"text":"要弱化在野監督的力量在昨天在前天兩天前人民已經做出了一個完整的一個決定左院長對於報載所有媒體報導去年1月13號總統大選結束以後1月14號賴總統跟您還有柯總召決定一年後"},{"start":120.458,"end":141.669,"text":"要推動大罷免希望能夠一黨專政然後現在終於所有的事情人民已經很清楚的告訴執政者並沒有這樣的事情哪一件事情沒有這樣的事1月13號 1月14號之後"},{"start":144.922,"end":170.26,"text":"總統或是跟任何人要推動大罷免這件事情並沒有這樣的事情但是當時媒體報宅的時候你們並沒有否認啊當時說的是對立法會跟兩院互動關係當時就應該要像現在告訴全國國人沒有這件事嘛對不對那當時為什麼不來否認好沒有關係現在講也可以"},{"start":171.991,"end":199.683,"text":"但是對於整個國家的空轉包括不斷的誣陷攻擊 再也立委現在人民已經做出了決定不管是有民進黨在台灣的獨裁專政亦或者是民進黨的國家能源政策人民已經給出了很清楚的答案對於內閣是不是要總辭"},{"start":201.175,"end":218.155,"text":"所以你講什麼看法總統已經說過7月26號之後我已經數次跟總統談論到這樣的話題我認為不是因為罷免不罷免的問題而是整個在政策推動上"},{"start":219.847,"end":246.272,"text":"過去那段時間的不順暢跟未來有沒有辦法順暢的推動這才是行政院該檢討的行政院不只是檢討過去那一段是未來我們要做什麼責任政治在哪裡責任政治在哪裡我希望總統 如您剛剛所說過去政策推動不順利政策推動不順利包括政策是否適當"},{"start":248.322,"end":276.314,"text":"第二個是否有完整的溝通第三個是否獨裁專段這三件事情你認為你做到了嗎第一個沒有獨裁專段第二個溝通必須加強第三個政策推動不順利是因為有些政策 行政院因為違憲之前我們有示愛難行再野黨"},{"start":277.819,"end":303.761,"text":"什麼時候溝通過了我們曾經到行政院裡面來談過話幾次至少有兩次以上所以卓院長在這一年多當中跟在野黨的溝通是兩次行政院透過執政黨團跟在野黨團的溝通那是每天都在進行的過去一年我們只衝刺看到"},{"start":304.81,"end":333.116,"text":"執政黨團不斷的造謠不斷的申飛有什麼時候來溝通每個黨團都很努力 不斷的攻擊不斷的對在野立委的監督不斷用各種不堪入耳的方式的攻擊就光講今天的專案報告就好了4月2號發生美國川普總統對全世界"},{"start":334.11,"end":360.648,"text":"無差別的要求加碼關稅對全世界的經濟衝擊國民黨團立刻要求 沈院長要到院報告到今天幾個月了 四個月 五個月執政黨團還在這裡護航 您來這裡報告多少次"},{"start":361.547,"end":390.272,"text":"我們當時就希望你來說清楚講明白我們得到的答案是什麼執政黨民進黨團堅決反對我們要再一次的表達不管心不甘情不願也好主動跟國人說明也好卓院長本來就應該在第一時間到國會來跟國人做一個報告即便是有很多內容是不能透露的"},{"start":391.101,"end":419.945,"text":"我們都可以尊重那要通過溝通大家了解以後相忍為國而不是在發生這麼大的事情以後五個月後才來報告所以總院長您對這一次全國國人民意就誠如賴總統所說更大的民意最新的民意已經出來了總院長"},{"start":422.178,"end":426.966,"text":"內閣要不要總辭內閣的重要人士會做"},{"start":428.464,"end":456.488,"text":"主要人事的一個調整那我跟總統提出過必須負起政治責任總統認為在這個時候局勢要穩定下來很多已經在推動的事情以及明年總預算的編列都要同時進行那其實我認為在8月23總預算也已經編列完成了全國性的投票秩序良好那應該是一個時間但總統還是認為持續把工作做下去在總統的整個治國的理念之下他認為是最好"},{"start":457.108,"end":485.848,"text":"那麼我在這個原則底下我們就展開主要人事的調整第一個這一年多的執政以及國會以及國家以及台灣整體的內耗空轉已經非常的清楚人民已經做了這樣的一個決定卓院長本席不是針對您這是一個民主國家最基本的風骨"},{"start":488.271,"end":503.629,"text":"在禮拜六晚上 卓院長就必須公開開記者會來表示內閣總詞這是最基本的至於總統要不要留要不要公開留什麼理由來留 我們都尊重"},{"start":504.963,"end":529.991,"text":"但是你最基本的表態 必須讓全國國人看見這不是表態的問題 我已經向總統提出了這不是表態不表態 這是真實認為 責任正是國家不是您跟賴總統兩個人的國家是全民的 態度必須要出來我們政治的考量跟政治的互動 這是一種選擇世界所有媒體的報導"},{"start":531.512,"end":560.278,"text":"跟我們最寧靜的關係也最深厚的日本獨賣新聞對於企圖罷免在野黨台灣人民否決 再來東洋經濟 台灣政治今天一陷入嚴重的兩極化這是誰造成的沒有溝通 從來不溝通 霸道"},{"start":561.906,"end":591.173,"text":"就是執政者的標章再來學者日本小立委員表示賴清德也失去日本媒體的信任從獨賣到朝日都不樂見罷免對台灣不樂觀好 再來美國外交政策期刊呼籲川普"},{"start":591.906,"end":621.153,"text":"要約束台灣再來BBC針對執政黨說所謂在野立委是親中的大罷免如何撕裂了台灣再來黃柏台灣選民否決這次的大罷免卓院長"},{"start":624.4,"end":641.989,"text":"北溪講過很多次在這裡再一次的呼籲您身為國家的葛魁一年多來有多少的衝突但是你只有兩次兩次的溝通"},{"start":645.899,"end":666.789,"text":"不要為難國會議長禮拜六本席看到賴總統對全國人民以及媒體的發問跟回答本席非常的意外"},{"start":669.382,"end":693.673,"text":"當民進黨立法院黨團再三的要求韓國瑜韓院長議事要中立不得介入任何的黨務賴總統竟然說要請卓院長跟韓院長溝通不要又把責任推到韓院長身上來包括我跟韓院長溝通不是黨務啊是兩院互動模式是必須"},{"start":695.37,"end":723.236,"text":"必須讓各個政黨各個黨團包括貴黨黨團在內有很多人都有不同對您的施政很多人都有不同的意見我虛心接受不是你接不接受的問題你要去溝通的問題我們全面改進但是我有一句話今天我們在這裡對話應該是針對今天的主題如果是韓院長在的話大概會制止你這樣的發言希望要盡快的來溝通"},{"start":724.929,"end":744.116,"text":"如果韓院長再會制止你今天的發言為什麼不針對今天的主題啊這都是整個國家的互動最關鍵的一環卓院長啊 不要再閃避問題我沒有聽到任何問題 今天的主題"},{"start":746.276,"end":772.297,"text":"剛剛講的都是台灣現在發生最嚴重的問題我們都了解 怎麼不是問題呢各位怎麼可以經過民意 用婆鳥心來嬰兒盜鈴呢經過民意我們都充分了解我們也面對民意的改變了解了你的做法是什麼嘛所以本席剛剛在這裡苦口婆心請卓院長不要再把責任推到國會議長身上"},{"start":773.646,"end":799.201,"text":"你們對各黨的溝通是什麼賴總統到現在為止既沒有跟國民黨主席民眾黨主席坐下來談行政院長也沒有針對每一件國家重大的事情跟在野黨保持暢旺的溝通本席希望如果正如你所說"},{"start":801.758,"end":829.694,"text":"蔡總統堅持要留任 左院長我們尊重但未來的溝通請拿出誠意用常態性的溝通對每一件事情能夠有一個清楚 完整讓在野黨能夠了解大家可以共體時間但是我們不能瞎子摸象內容完全不了解我們要怎麼樣來支持"},{"start":831.069,"end":857.79,"text":"要更何況要怎麼樣來背書我希望卓榮泰卓院長希望你改變過去一年多的戰鬥模式現在必須真正成為中華民國的行政院長而不是民進黨的行政院長我們曾經說過要做四項調整調整國家財政體質調整施政的先後順序調整兩院互動以及調整內閣人事我們逐步展開"},{"start":859.605,"end":886.979,"text":"本黨團拭目以待今天不是個人的施政總諮詢今天是專案報告我們三位包括徐議貞委員 林倩琦委員都是代表國民黨團來就教於卓榮泰卓院長好我們看一下這個"},{"start":891.521,"end":915.402,"text":"昨天的聯合報跟中國時報報頭我們就不再提這個事情本期現在要請教一下現在對美關稅地板是20%還要加上WTO相關的這些稅率"},{"start":917.472,"end":944.997,"text":"再加上台幣升值大幅升值對外銷產業的重創基本上來說這個就是莫衷一事在野黨完全看不懂執政者今天的談判如此的失敗日本 韓國 台灣最大的競爭者都是15%的上限"},{"start":945.964,"end":963.952,"text":"天花板因為他們已經達成協議我們20%是地板我們還在努力爭取更合理的稅率同一個時間從4月2號開始各國開始跟美國溝通我們並不是在不是在同一個起跑點上大家都在同一個時間面對這個問題"},{"start":967.099,"end":985.172,"text":"如果日本韓國已經達成協議台灣還沒有達成協議這個基本上就已經失職就已經失職因為新版關稅已經實施已經實施由不得時不待人"},{"start":986.95,"end":1014.731,"text":"台灣產業已經面對這樣的衝擊我剛剛已經說過了因為我們的密差比較大而且232對我們的產業是比較影響多我們居於這樣關鍵性的領先地位這兩個部分都是像現在請告訴國人什麼時候可以談好談判是雙方2月1號到現在已經快一個月了我們國內的產業已經忍受到將近一個月的高關稅"},{"start":1016.447,"end":1045.359,"text":"對產業支持我們先用以緩計及方式在特別預算出來之前我們用以緩計及的方式先向 進行產業的支持 您所提出的881加51 931立法院也支持啊現在但是我們不能永無止境的等待我們尊重 左院長你的說法 感謝很多都在談判過程中都還在保密好"},{"start":1047.783,"end":1071.798,"text":"請問什麼時候可以Data是什麼時候什麼時候可以做最後的確認要不要請談判代表來說一下現在努力的進行你不瞭解狀況嗎我當然知道 談判代表就請你直接回答本席好不好我跟委員來做一個報告從8月1號以來我們跟美方有繼續進行三次的視訊會議請教先回答本席的問題什麼時候可以談完"},{"start":1072.318,"end":1087.321,"text":"我們當然希望越快越好那談判取決於希望是代表什麼意思回溯我們在8月1號前沒能達成協議最重要的一個因素就是因為我國出口七成是半導體及ICT尤其占逆差的九成"},{"start":1087.822,"end":1112.983,"text":"那美方也表示這個項目在美方232的調查底下那也連動美方232關稅的政策方向所以台美需要一些時間持續就對等跟232一併對談 一併並談所以我們持續在這個談判中那我們希望越快越好那美國財政部長所以今天到立法院正式專案報告是給"},{"start":1117.011,"end":1141.154,"text":"有夢最美 希望相隨希望 希望產業都絕望了 你們還在希望我們全力以赴 越快越好那關於產業現在受到的衝擊我家什麼叫全力以赴你把外交辭令帶到這裡來人民快要活不下去了報告委員 我們上禮拜五還在視訊會議"},{"start":1142.976,"end":1159.525,"text":"這本來就該做的事情 不需告訴我嘛你們本來就該做的事情嘛 你說 談判什麼時候進行上禮拜五還在談 表示這個談判一直在進行當中有需要 談判代表會指揮美國去談判為什麼有一個這麼無能的政府嘛什麼叫希望嘛"},{"start":1161.134,"end":1176.904,"text":"不是 我們現在報告委員已經在進行的事情談判小組我們正在全力的進行談判當中那由於台美雙方在232的議題有關半導體跟ICT產業是相對於其他國家232的項目相對於複雜跟變動性我們全力佈陣在談判經濟努力當中如果你帶來的只是希望兩個字 請回"},{"start":1189.912,"end":1194.737,"text":"不會 我們會用結果來證明我們的努力主席 兩位請回"},{"start":1195.97,"end":1219.216,"text":"告訴我們就是希望 兩位請回我們全力以赴 繼續努力爭取最好的結果 爭取更好的合理的稅率我們也必須要向大院做以上的報告報告委員 我剛剛說過國際談判難上加難最後的時間就是雙方條件多你們能力不足嘛 講白了就是這樣嘛那本席在這裡"},{"start":1223.12,"end":1239.169,"text":"一定要很強烈的讓院長了解台積電我們一分鐘來回顧一下中華民國政府在1974年民國63年當時的經濟部長我再強調一次經濟部長孫運璿"},{"start":1247.282,"end":1268.383,"text":"帶了七人小組在豆漿店裡面開啟了台灣的科技奇蹟在65年跟RCA簽約派了一批優秀的科技人才到美國去學習 再來"},{"start":1271.155,"end":1299.518,"text":"在民國74年成立了台灣集體電路公司台積電並邀請張忠謀來擔任負責人卓院長這是我們台灣的手心我們的心骨肉台灣人民的心骨肉我們的政府跟全民所培養出來的"},{"start":1300.376,"end":1316.288,"text":"給了各種的優惠前面來留住人才這個台積電在民國76年1987年台積電公司成立請問一下周院長當時的李國鼎經濟部長跟現在的經濟部長"},{"start":1330.279,"end":1351.267,"text":"剛剛請辭的郭志輝面臨這4月2號到現在為止四五六七八五個月請問台積電當時去美國跟美國總統川普在白宮開記者會的時候郭志輝部長說他不知道"},{"start":1355.814,"end":1361.78,"text":"那再請問我們所有對美關稅談判過程當中經濟部長有沒有參與"},{"start":1363.598,"end":1387.097,"text":"我們提出的對產業支持都是經濟部所提出來的我們對工業的出口進口對產業支持經濟部我說對美談判他有沒有參加嗎回答我問題有這麼困難嗎我們對工業出口的稅率 進口的稅率等等我們都是經濟部所提出來我們用這個稅率去進行談判的怎麼會沒有談判呢那你就告訴本席他有參與就好了嘛"},{"start":1388.827,"end":1391.673,"text":"對不對 當時的經濟部長是製造台灣奇蹟的人現在的經濟部長 一問三不知"},{"start":1398.322,"end":1412.289,"text":"報告委員 每個時代的經濟部長都要面對不同的挑戰現在時代的經濟部長比較不重要了可以不用參與就對了當時一個李國鼎 孫運璿可以造成台灣的奇蹟我到工業區的時候我都會感謝當時李國鼎當時孫運璿院長 李國鼎部長當時帶領那批年輕工程師締造台灣目前的高科技產業我都這樣講過"},{"start":1426.415,"end":1449.125,"text":"六時代的經濟部長不一樣啦 本席瞭解現在是廁所裡的花瓶啦完全不是核心 也沒有參與任何所以第一時間所有全國媒體問他他都不知道這個事情再問他說川普說要投資台積電要投資兩千億 三千億他說這是假新聞這就是現在執政團隊的經濟部長淪為國際的笑話"},{"start":1453.479,"end":1480.749,"text":"我對郭志輝部長抱屈啊完全排除在外的核心 排除核心之外的人並非如此何必讓他當經濟部長委員你這樣子講真的我也要替他抱屈 並非如此再來 本席請教一下國家安全法第三條國家的核心關鍵技術之營業秘密台積電是不是是不是"},{"start":1481.753,"end":1508.885,"text":"是不是適用國安法第三條是國家核心關鍵技術台積電不僅對國家重要對世界重要它當然是國家的核心關鍵技術好 謝謝所以再來我們公司對外投資處理辦法第六條不與核准影響國家安全對國家經濟發展有不利的影響"},{"start":1510.82,"end":1539.411,"text":"請問台積電是不是對外投資如果核心技術移走是不是對台灣會造成相當大的影響下一頁不管依照國家安全法第三條的第一項第三項還是公司國外投資處理辦法第五條請問一下"},{"start":1541.243,"end":1545.262,"text":"卓院長台積電什麼時候要送神"},{"start":1546.735,"end":1574.509,"text":"台積電要送審由台積電台積公司他們提出來要送審的時間由他們提出但是我們依據的就是包括委員剛剛所說的原則在內我們希望他在台灣搶但他經過他審慎頭思考要世界佈局的時候只要合乎我們的條件政府並不會阻擋但是我們要求跟留台灣我們要求台灣加一我們台灣要求關鍵技術要留在台灣核心的研發留在台灣這個原則不變"},{"start":1575.789,"end":1603.587,"text":"對美有N-1嗎有N-1嗎我們對台灣N-1在台灣要外國投資的台灣不能減少對國外投資有沒有N-1美國的政策我不瞭解美國是不是N-1台灣對外的投資生產技術關鍵要關鍵技術有沒有前一代出去投資有沒有台灣一定要保持最領先的位置所以對外國的投資都不應該把核心技術往外所以對外投資"},{"start":1605.063,"end":1634.148,"text":"有確實執行恩檢運嗎在審查投審的審查過程當中一定是嚴格要求這關係到台灣的經濟命脈跟國家販產跟國家安全台灣日本美國更不要說三座晶圓廠兩座先進封裝廠主要研發團隊都搬過去來我們看一下台日韓關稅對美投資承諾的比較我們看一下日本"},{"start":1635.06,"end":1663.154,"text":"五千五百億美金韓國三千五百億美金台灣大概多少億美金雙方都有提出一些方案還沒有達成協議所以現在沒有做任何實質承諾卓院長 您還是用你的老辦法再次在國會告訴國人說還沒有達成協議好 那本席給你一個強烈的建議日本"},{"start":1664.281,"end":1680.785,"text":"承諾的5500億美金是因為日本的GDP 4.1兆美元他大概是用國家GDP的13%承諾投資韓國 南韓1.87兆美元的GDP投資18.7到美國台灣只要是2500億美金就32%我們的GDP"},{"start":1694.504,"end":1699.908,"text":"3000億美金是38%4000億美金是51%我們台灣的GDP本席絕對不同意你們最後談這個協議是喪權辱國讓台灣世代都無法承受的這樣的財政壓力"},{"start":1718.697,"end":1741.429,"text":"好的 謝謝委員這一段我記住我請談判代表特別把副委員所提的這一段詳細記錄出來我們在談判的時候要用這樣的數據對外去做說明這個副委員教談判代表的一個內容那如果談判有成我們一起為這樣的結果大家一起來享受這個成果如果談判遇到困難我們也希望大家共同來承擔這是當然雖然是民進黨在執政但是現在發生問題"},{"start":1748.76,"end":1772.522,"text":"全民都要承擔在野黨當然願意給我們的政府當靠山不過我跟委員講這一句要談出最好的條件這一些數據跟依據各國GDP的比較我們在談判代表都生計在心都生計在心也都用這樣來做依據的不管對美投資2500億 3000億 4000億美金"},{"start":1774.983,"end":1797.015,"text":"有沒有包括台積電的兩千億 有沒有台積電我知道它是實際精準一點數字是1650億目前1650嘛 川普大定義宣布兩千了嘛那他應該把它沒有關係 1650還是兩千億都可以請問有沒有包括在對美投資裡面"},{"start":1797.662,"end":1813.551,"text":"中華民國最美投資的這整個區塊有沒有就我政府立場任何一家國家的產業去投資都當作是我們國家出去的投資就我政府的立場是我們的立場是希望談判上一定要堅持這是包含在內另外我們中油採購的阿拉斯加600萬噸的天然氣有沒有包含在內"},{"start":1820.868,"end":1845.816,"text":"目前這個還在初步的整個開發計畫還沒有完全成熟是在找一些合作投資的對象國家而已我們是表示基於能源安全我們願意購買更多安全的能源總院長 希望購買更多安全的能源 謝謝本席在這裡 希望您確認一個事情"},{"start":1848.004,"end":1874.144,"text":"在你承諾美國要簽署協議之前我希望你承諾在對美簽署協議之前要把完整的協議內容不是協議內容而已對國內產業所有的衝擊還有民生的影響這份報告送到立法院會的再過來"},{"start":1874.98,"end":1903.097,"text":"我們談判過程絕對不能降低我們食安的標準還有標示等等我不能降標國人健康跟糧食安全是四大原則裡面重要兩項另外兩個就是維持國家的利益跟產業的利益對於現在20%疊加關稅往上架往上架我們政府所有紓困的方式清單"},{"start":1905.199,"end":1915.719,"text":"要盡快送到立法院到時要一併送來立法院在修正條例當中原來的條例以及預算當中對國內產業解放是怎麼樣"},{"start":1916.633,"end":1944.344,"text":"要必須很完整送到立法院來在任性條例以及修正案當中以及未來的特別預算裡面我們會強烈的來說明那當然如果委員提出任何的詢問我們各部會一定加強說明不僅讓國會瞭解也讓各產業瞭解這才是重點我們看一下齁當時影響台灣非常非常大的改變台灣政治方向也讓民進黨能夠順利執政當時台南化的訴求我們看一下"},{"start":1945,"end":1973.955,"text":"這邊我們還要重申兩岸協議監督條例的堅持的五大立法原則包括公民參與包括國會監督 人權保障資訊公開以及政府負責第二點我們的成果 我們的訴求是先立法再審查推推 黑小福報推推 黑小福報推推好 主席院長過去是先立法再審查"},{"start":1975.403,"end":1997.191,"text":"現在我們完完全全都不知道它的內容是什麼那是立監督兩岸的法 兩岸監督條例對外只要把台灣的核心辦出去通通是一樣影響到台灣的生存發展 卓院長"},{"start":1998.217,"end":2026.512,"text":"不要迴避這些台灣核心關鍵技術建設技術不會往外移我們至少保持最領先的這個世代這個是政府跟業界共通有的共識大家也會遵守要給您一個非常大的一個建議對美的談判總院長要加油給鄭麗君副院長我知道你談判很辛苦但是要盡快有結果 不能讓人民"},{"start":2027.847,"end":2056.528,"text":"永遠在空等苦等本席在這裡強烈的建議當川普大帝要我們投資美國我們的政府如果是投資一千億美金舉例我們希望美國附帶的條件給台灣的條件必須要提供華爾街的融資舉例來講阿拉斯加我們要投資"},{"start":2059.002,"end":2067.406,"text":"不管是他的建設建構阿拉斯加輸氣管線整個設備440億美金如果我們要投資的話還是預購未來的600萬噸請美國提供融資我們投資1000億請他融資900億或是800億美金"},{"start":2089.104,"end":2116.941,"text":"就是一個方式同時也希望這家公司能夠美國要求我們投資的公司跟項目請他們用公司債的方式發CP有保證投報率我們來購買他的CP一切的建設由他自行操作但是投報率必須高於"},{"start":2118.373,"end":2126.869,"text":"他們給我們的貸款的利息這才能確保台灣的經濟不會被損耗掉"},{"start":2129.25,"end":2153.531,"text":"學長可以嗎阿拉斯天然氣的投資案不是美國單獨或是美國跟台灣兩國是一個國際性世界性現在都在討論的也多數國家提出興趣國際性更應該要這麼做我認為會有一道標準我認為會有一個標準是各國可以通用或是可以大體通用的一個方式那我們當然站在國家立場"},{"start":2154.392,"end":2182.884,"text":"委員所提的 我們都曾經這樣的設想過許多的方案但還不到那個時候 還不到那個時候本席跟你強烈建議 要這麼做這個才不會拖垮台灣的財政跟台灣的產業就談判的方式來講 我們現在還沒有到那個程度我們不會輕易提出 既然是一個多國成立的公司更應該讓美國政府用國家的力量讓這家公司能夠盡快的"},{"start":2184.008,"end":2212.737,"text":"在美國上市在美國IPO發行公司在有保障的投報必須高於華爾街所提供的銀行利息才能讓我們國家的經濟立於不敗之地左院長請你慎思再來我們現在AI產業要代表我們整個國家在未來世界的科技發展裡面還在領先群"},{"start":2214.668,"end":2240.727,"text":"要用多少的電力啊所以你講 電力就是國力 就是戰力我們如果沒有電的話我們現在的配比 80%火力發電氣 火力發電大家用廢發電本期希望齁給您建議啊 這一次對美的投資"},{"start":2245.592,"end":2269.912,"text":"前天希望重啟河山台灣人民跟不希望 不同意重啟河山是三倍的民意 三倍的民意因為大家不希望用昂貴的電讓國家沒有競爭力很希望您這次對美談判"},{"start":2271.826,"end":2294.882,"text":"把最先進最安全全世界都期待的小型核能也把它列入投資或是政府必須購買的項目裡面可以讓台灣的電力不予匱乏讓全世界最先進的產業科技產業能夠走進台灣讓台灣能夠吸收更多的"},{"start":2296.356,"end":2321.983,"text":"這個國際的投資能夠走進來第一個 他們就問有沒有電力卓院長可以把它納入嗎我們說過新的核能技術總統也講過先進的核能技術都是未來我們可以開放討論接受學習的目標它如果真的可以解決安全的問題沒有核廢料的問題而我們共同都有社會高度的共識這個就會成為未來台灣能源政策一種新的思考模式卓院長"},{"start":2324.209,"end":2348.789,"text":"台灣不是世界最先進的國家先進的國家他的能源是怎麼使用怎麼配比這是台灣政府要好好來學習的不要一味的用教條式的話術這個人民已經投完票了請尊重民意做政策的調整"},{"start":2353.868,"end":2371.426,"text":"做政策的調整我們尊重結果 相信科學我們願意來共同討論直接拆穿這個世紀謊言什麼風電 太陽能我們希望先進國家的思維是什麼"},{"start":2373.868,"end":2396.207,"text":"這個標題不對 他是對他國內講他沒有拆穿民進黨的謊言民進黨的政策我們會知道要跟國家與時俱進我們會做相同的討論他在講他國內的風電太陽能是世紀謊言嘛那跟我們這邊 你們的堅持不是一樣嗎你們堅持要風電太陽能嘛他講的世紀謊言那不是戳破大家講的嗎"},{"start":2398.28,"end":2427.5,"text":"本席你尊重你的 不要再那個嘛 對不對不要再背離民意嘛 也不要背離產業嘛要把台北的產業都趕出去嘛 對不對我們看一下一下價格外購風電6.59元 台電公布太陽能光電4.87元 太陽能發電1.38元院長 希望這一張啊 已經貼在床頭啊每天睡覺前看一下"},{"start":2428.753,"end":2451.543,"text":"臺灣要怎麼發展人民怎麼生存請重視一下再看看我們現在用廢發電我們排行連續9年破9000萬噸要臺灣人民用廢發電人民已經做出了選擇請政府適可而止 好不好"},{"start":2452.594,"end":2461.543,"text":"我們的碳排量逐年在下降台電提出過多次精準的數據可以提供給委員做參考國防預算9495億 創新高"},{"start":2468.568,"end":2492.88,"text":"這當然包括這次對美的包裹這有沒有包括這次對美的包裹所有這些軍工採購都在裡面有沒有這個是明年的總預算加上部分過去的這個特別預算為數不多那就是總預算但是我們採行的是北約的通案的算法把海巡 退府都加進來才達到這個數字現在GDP是3.3%"},{"start":2496.215,"end":2505.537,"text":"我們明天是佔3.3%本席在這裡給你建議代表國民黨團2001年阿扁執政當時2377億的國防預算現在9495億國防預算剛好4倍剛好4倍當時的人均"},{"start":2525.697,"end":2542.93,"text":"GDP是13400美元現在是34000美元我們的經濟成長只有2.5倍但是我們的國防預算增加了4倍還不包括我不曉得"},{"start":2544.492,"end":2556.58,"text":"9月份會不會又送了一個大禮包來報告委員 我說過了我們現在的算法是採取北約模式把退府 把海巡等等加進來把資安加進來才達到這個9000多億請問卓院長你把這個加進來2001年阿扁執政這些沒有加進來嗎那時候沒有採北約模式是我們原來的數字是"},{"start":2569.762,"end":2597.851,"text":"當時 請問一下 當時沒有退幅嗎但是沒有加進來 算國防預算沒有關係 本席現在在提醒您的是我們經濟成長只有2.5倍不管你現在是4倍的國防預算增加還是3.5倍的國防預算增加 還是3倍也好都趕不上經濟成長的腳步周院長 本席要特別提醒您一下"},{"start":2600.343,"end":2619.755,"text":"1960年到1990年美國跟蘇聯的爭霸美國用圍堵的政策讓蘇聯軍備競賽經濟被圍堵用一樣的軍費大家火拼到最後經濟跟不上30年時間蘇聯因為經濟崩潰而解體"},{"start":2625.16,"end":2649.803,"text":"如果我們今天沒有足夠的經濟實力來充實我們的國防卓院長卓院長這不只對我們國家的財政是沉重的負擔更對我們所有民生所有的這些知識都會遭到排擠卓院長本席在這裡啊要特別啊"},{"start":2650.667,"end":2678.528,"text":"這個故事北溪要再講一次我們是基於國家的主權安全的維護考量到我們的財政能力所以我們有很多包括不對稱戰爭的因素我們採取國家對國防的需求所以總統現在二月就提出了所以國軍將士加急兩萬塊還是不給總統在今年是已經核定了國軍的加急各類的加急我們希望能夠"},{"start":2683.282,"end":2692.23,"text":"這兩萬塊 國軍加起的從一萬到三萬本席希望在預算書送到立法院來的時候本席要看見沒有強健的國軍"},{"start":2694.008,"end":2720.858,"text":"因為為國犧牲奮戰買再多的武器都是恍然很抱歉 這個在預算沒有編列但是我們說過 我們提出釋憲釋憲結果之後對不起我們公告你需要實施你實施的同時 你可以去釋憲請依法 不要違法在釋憲結果之後 釋憲是你的權利我們可以 但是要依法先實施編或不編 如果編會同時補足 要依法先實施本席在這裡 最後苦口婆心"},{"start":2724.435,"end":2750.867,"text":"50年前東南亞經濟最強盛的國家叫做菲律賓但是出到一個馬可思總統他的腐敗讓菲律賓人三代為奴台灣三代人的努力我們一定要守住一定要守住希望卓院長 腰桿挺直跟美國人談判 好不好我們堅持國家立場另外徐委員跟林委員有任何的指教"},{"start":2753.502,"end":2755.349,"text":"好 謝謝副委員 徐委員還有林委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（9時40分）主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：傅委員、許委員、林委員，三位委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：卓院長好。"],["傅委員崐萁：經過了整整將近一年的時間，整個國家空轉，不斷的衝刺，從總統、院長、部會首長、執政者的國會議員到執政者的所有宣傳工具，一年當中不斷的攻擊在野黨是所謂的中共同路人、共匪立委，讓臺灣不斷的撕裂、撕裂、再撕裂，要弱化在野監督的力量，在兩天前人民已經做出了一個完整的決定。卓院長，對於報載、所有媒體報導，去年1月13號總統大選結束以後，1月14號賴總統跟您還有柯總召決定一年後要推動大罷免，希望能夠一黨專政，現在終於所有的事情人民已經很清楚的告訴執政者……"],["卓院長榮泰：並沒有這樣的事情。"],["傅委員崐萁：哪一件事情沒有這樣的事？"],["卓院長榮泰：1月13號、1月14號之後，總統或是跟任何人要推動大罷免的這件事情，並沒有這樣的事情。"],["傅委員崐萁：但是當時媒體報載的時候，你們並沒有否認。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時說的是，對行政、立法兩院互動關係的……"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，當時就應該要像現在一樣告訴全國國人沒有這件事，對不對？那當時為什麼不否認？好，沒有關係，現在講也可以。但是對於整個國家的空轉，包括不斷的誣陷、攻擊在野立委，現在人民已經做出了決定，不管是由民進黨在臺灣的獨裁專政，抑或者是民進黨的國家能源政策，人民已經給出了很清楚的答案。對於內閣是不是要總辭，院長有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統已經說過，7月26號之後我已經數次跟總統談論到這樣的話題，我認為不是因為罷免、不罷免的問題，而是在整個政策推動上，關於過去那段時間的不順暢跟未來有沒有辦法順暢的推動，這才是行政院該檢討的，行政院不只是檢討過去那一段，而是未來我們要做什麼。"],["傅委員崐萁：院長，責任政治在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我說過……"],["傅委員崐萁：責任政治在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望總統……"],["傅委員崐萁：誠如您剛剛所說，過去政策推動不順利，政策推動不順利包括政策是否適當，第二個是否有完整的溝通，第三個是否獨裁專斷這三件事情，你認為你做到了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，三句話：第一個，沒有獨裁專斷；第二個，溝通必須加強；第三個，政策推動不順利是因為有些政策有違憲之嫌，行政院窒礙難行。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問卓院長，您跟在野黨什麼時候溝通過了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們曾經到行政院裡面來談過話。"],["傅委員崐萁：幾次？"],["卓院長榮泰：至少有兩次以上。而平常……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以卓院長在這一年多當中跟在野黨的溝通是兩次。"],["卓院長榮泰：但行政院透過執政黨團跟在野黨團的溝通是每天都在進行的。"],["傅委員崐萁：過去一年我們只看到執政黨團不斷的造謠、不斷的生非，什麼時候有來溝通？"],["卓院長榮泰：每個黨團都很努力。"],["傅委員崐萁：都是不斷的攻擊、不斷對於在野立委的監督、不斷用各種不堪入耳的方式攻擊。","光講今天的專案報告就好了，4月2號發生美國川普總統對全世界無差別要求加碼關稅，對全世界的經濟造成衝擊，國民黨團立刻要求卓院長要到院報告，到今天幾個月了？4個月、5個月，執政黨團還在護航您來這裡報告多少次，我們當時就希望你來說清楚、講明白，我們得到的答案是什麼？執政黨、民進黨團堅決反對！我們要再一次的表達，不管心不甘情不願也好、主動跟國人說明也好，卓院長本來就應該在第一時間到國會來跟國人做一個報告，即便有很多內容是不能透露的，我們都可以尊重，那要透過溝通、讓大家了解以後相忍為國，而不是在發生這麼大事情的5個月後才來報告！","卓院長，您對這一次全國國人民意，就誠如賴總統所說，更大的民意、最新的民意已經出來了，卓院長，內閣要不要總辭？"],["卓院長榮泰：內閣的重要、主要人事會做一些調整，而我跟總統提出過必須負起政治責任，總統認為在這個時候局勢要穩定下來，很多已經在推動的事情以及明年總預算的編列都要同時進行，其實我認為在8月23日總預算也已經編列完成了、全國性的投票秩序良好，那應該是一個時間，但總統還是認為持續把工作做下去，在總統的整個治國理念之下，他認為是最好，我在這個原則底下就展開主要人事的調整。"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，第一個，這一年多的執政以及國會、國家與臺灣整體的內耗、空轉已經非常清楚，人民已經做了這樣的一個決定，卓院長，本席不是針對你，這是一個民主國家最基本的風骨，在禮拜六晚上卓院長就必須公開開記者會來表示內閣總辭，這是最基本的！至於總統要不要留、要不要公開留、什麼理由來留，我們都尊重，但是你最基本的表態必須讓全國國人看見！"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是表態的問題，我已經向總統提出了，這不是表態、不表態，這真的是認為責任政治……"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，國家不是您跟賴總統兩個人的，國家是全民的，你的態度必須要出來！"],["卓院長榮泰：關於我們政治的考量跟政治的互動，這是一種選擇。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們看一下世界上所有媒體的報導，跟我們最鄰近、關係也最深厚的日本，「讀賣新聞」：對於企圖罷免在野黨，臺灣人民否決；再來，「東洋經濟」：臺灣政治如今陷入嚴重的兩極化。這是誰造成的？沒有溝通、從來不溝通、霸道！這是執政者的標章。再來，日本學者小笠原表示，賴清德已經失去日本媒體的信任。從讀賣到朝日都不樂見罷免，對臺灣不樂觀。另外，美國外交政策期刊呼籲川普要約束臺灣；BBC針對執政黨說所謂在野立委是親中的大罷免如何撕裂了臺灣；而彭博則報導，臺灣選民否決這次的大罷免。","卓院長，本席講過很多次，在這裡再一次呼籲，您身為國家的閣揆，一年多來有多少的衝突，但是你只有兩次的溝通，不要為難國會議長……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我說兩次是請到行政院來……"],["傅委員崐萁：禮拜六……"],["卓院長榮泰：其他的溝通是不在這兩次，這是請到行政院來的。"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，禮拜六本席看到賴總統對全國人民及媒體的發問跟回答，本席非常的意外，當民進黨立法院黨團再三的要求韓國瑜院長議事要中立，不得介入任何的黨務，賴總統竟然說要請卓院長跟韓院長溝通，不要又把責任推到韓院長身上來。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我跟韓院長溝通不是黨務，是兩院互動模式。"],["傅委員崐萁：是必須讓各個政黨、各個黨團，包括貴黨黨團在內，有很多人對您的施政都有不同的意見。"],["卓院長榮泰：我虛心接受。"],["傅委員崐萁：不是你接不接受的問題，是你要去溝通的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們全面改進。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以卓院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是委員，我一句話，今天我們在這裡對話應該是針對今天的主題，如果是韓院長在的話，大概會制止你這樣的發言。"],["傅委員崐萁：希望要儘快地來溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果韓院長在，會制止你今天的發言，因為你不針對今天的主題。"],["傅委員崐萁：這都是……"],["卓院長榮泰：韓院長已經在這裡講過了。"],["傅委員崐萁：這都是整個國家互動最關鍵的一環。"],["卓院長榮泰：好吧！"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長不要再閃避問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有聽到任何問題是關於今天的主題。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席剛剛講的都是臺灣現在發生最嚴重的問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都了解。"],["傅委員崐萁：怎麼不是問題呢？閣揆怎麼可以用鴕鳥心態來掩耳盜鈴呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：經過民意，我們都充分了解，我們也面對這樣民意的改變。"],["傅委員崐萁：了解，那你的作法是什麼嘛！所以本席剛剛在這裡苦口婆心，請卓院長不要再把責任推到國會議長身上，你們對各黨的溝通是什麼？賴總統到現在為止，既沒有跟國民黨主席、民眾黨主席坐下來談，行政院長也沒有針對每一件國家重大的事情跟在野黨保持暢旺的溝通。如果誠如你所說賴總統堅持要留任，卓院長，我們尊重，但未來的溝通請拿出誠意，用常態性的溝通，對每一件事情都能夠清楚、完整地讓在野黨了解，大家可以共體時艱，但是我們不能瞎子摸象，對內容完全不了解，我們要怎麼樣支持？更何況要怎麼樣來背書？我希望卓榮泰院長改變過去一年多的戰鬥模式，現在必須真正成為中華民國的行政院長，而不是民進黨的行政院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們曾經說過要做四項調整，包括調整國家財政體質、調整施政先後順序、調整兩院互動及調整內閣人事，我們逐步展開。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝，本黨團拭目以待，今天不是個人的施政總質詢，今天是專案報告，我們3位包括許宇甄委員、林倩綺委員，都是代表國民黨黨團來就教於卓榮泰院長。","好，我們就不再提這個事情，我們看一下昨天（禮拜天）的聯合報跟中國時報報頭。本席要請教一下，現在對美關稅的地板是20%，還要加上WTO相關的這些稅率，再加上臺幣大幅升值，對外銷產業的重創，基本上來說，這個就是莫衷一是，在野黨完全看不懂執政者。今天的談判如此的失敗，日本、韓國是臺灣最大的競爭者，上限、天花板都是15%。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為他們已經達成協議。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們的20%是地板。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還在努力爭取更合理的稅率。"],["傅委員崐萁：同一個時間，從4月2號開始，各國開始跟美國溝通，我們並不是不在同一個起跑點上，大家都在同一個時間面對這個問題，如果日本、韓國已經達成協議，臺灣還沒有達成協議，這個基本上就已經失職！"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛已經在原因說過了。"],["傅委員崐萁：因為新版關稅已經實施，由不得，時不待人，臺灣產業已經面對這樣的衝擊。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員一句話，我剛剛已經說過了，因為我們的逆差比較大，而且232對我們的產業是影響比較多的，我們居於這樣關鍵性的領先地位，這兩個部分都是……"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，請告訴國人什麼時候可以談好？"],["卓院長榮泰：談判是雙方……"],["傅委員崐萁：從8月1號到現在已經快1個月了，我們國內的產業已經忍受將近1個月的高關稅。"],["卓院長榮泰：對產業的支持，我們先用移緩濟急的方式，在特別預算出來之前，我們用移緩濟急的方式先向產業進行支持。"],["傅委員崐萁：你所提出的880億加50億，共930億，立法院也支持啊！但是我們不能永無止境的等待，我們尊重卓院長你的說法。"],["卓院長榮泰：感謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：很多都還在談判過程中，都還在保密，請問什麼時候可以確認？deadline是什麼時候？什麼時候可以做最後的確認？"],["卓院長榮泰：要不要請談判代表來說一下現在努力進行的……"],["傅委員崐萁：您不了解狀況嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我當然知道，談判代表……"],["傅委員崐萁：那就請你直接回答本席，好不好？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我隨時都有向院長做報告，是不是也讓我跟委員來做個報告？從8月1號以來，我們跟美方有進行三次的視訊會議。"],["傅委員崐萁：先回答本席的問題，什麼時候可以談完？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們當然希望越快越好，談判取決於雙方……"],["傅委員崐萁：希望是代表什麼意思？"],["鄭副院長麗君：回溯我們在8月1號前沒能達成協議，最重要的一個因素就是因為我國出口七成是半導體及ICT，尤其占逆差的九成，美方也表示這個項目在232的調查底下，也連動美方232關稅的政策方向，所以臺美需要一些時間，持續就對等跟232一併談，所以我們持續在談判中，我們希望越快越好。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問一下，副院長……"],["鄭副院長麗君：美國財政部長……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以今天到立法院正式專案報告，有夢最美，希望相隨，「希望」？產業都絕望了，你們還在「希望」！"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們全力以赴，越快越好，關於產業現在受到的衝擊，院長……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼叫全力以赴？你把外交辭令帶到這裡啊？"],["鄭副院長麗君：院長也指示，我們移緩濟急，先行來支持……"],["傅委員崐萁：人民快要活不下去了！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們上禮拜五還在視訊會議。"],["傅委員崐萁：這本來就是該做的事情，無須告訴我，這本來就是你們該做的事情嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：你問說什麼時候進行？上禮拜五還在談，表示這個談判一直在進行當中，有需要，談判代表會直飛美國談判。"],["傅委員崐萁：為什麼有一個這麼無能的政府？什麼叫做「希望」？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是……"],["傅委員崐萁：竟然把外交辭令搬到立法院來！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在已經在進行的事情……"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，談判小組正在全力地進行談判當中，由於臺美雙方在232的議題攸關半導體跟ICT產業，是相對於其他國家……"],["傅委員崐萁：你講的所有報章雜誌、所有媒體都有露出……"],["鄭副院長麗君：232的項目相對於複雜跟變動性……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席都非常清楚、國民黨團也非常清楚……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們全力以赴正在談判，積極努力當中……"],["傅委員崐萁：請不要在這裡浪費我們的時間，如果你帶來的只是「希望」兩個字，請回！"],["鄭副院長麗君：不會，我們會用結果來證明我們的努力。"],["傅委員崐萁：告訴我們的就是希望，兩位請回，我們繼續就教於卓院長。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們全力以赴，繼續努力，爭取最好的結果……"],["傅委員崐萁：兩位請回，好不好？"],["鄭副院長麗君：爭取更好的、合理的稅率，我們也必須要向大院做以上的報告。"],["傅委員崐萁：兩位請回。"],["主席：我們就請留卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我剛剛說過國際談判難上加難，最後的時間就是讓雙方條件都……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你們能力不足，講白了就是這樣嘛！好，本席在這裡一定要很強烈的讓院長了解，我們1分鐘來回顧一下台積電。中華民國政府在1974年（民國63年），當時的經濟部長，我再強調一次，經濟部長孫運璿帶了七人小組，在豆漿店裡面開啟了臺灣的科技奇蹟。在65年跟RCA簽約，派了一批優秀的科技人才到美國去學習；在民國74年籌劃成立了台灣積體電路公司（台積電）並邀請張忠謀來擔任負責人。卓院長，這是我們臺灣的心頭肉，臺灣人民的心頭肉，我們的政府跟全民所培養出來的，給了各種的優惠減免來留住人才。然後台積電在民國76年（1987年）成立公司。請問一下卓院長，當時的李國鼎經濟部長跟現在剛剛請辭的經濟部長郭智輝，面臨著4月2號到現在為止，4、5、6、7、8五個月，台積電當時去美國跟美國總統川普在白宮開記者會的時候，郭智輝部長說他不知道！再請問，我們所有對美關稅談判過程當中，經濟部長有沒有參與？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們提出對產業的支持，都是經濟部所提出來的，我們對工業的出口、進口……"],["傅委員崐萁：我是說對美談判，他有沒有參加嘛，回答我問題有這麼困難嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對工業出口的稅率、進口的稅率等等，都是經濟部所提出來，我們用這個稅率去進行談判的，怎麼會沒有參與談判呢？"],["傅委員崐萁：那你就告訴本席他有參與就好了嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：所有的部會都……"],["傅委員崐萁：當時的經濟部長是製造臺灣奇蹟的人，現在的經濟部長一問三不知！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，每個時代的經濟部長都要面對不同的挑戰。"],["傅委員崐萁：我知道啦，現在時代的經濟部長比較不重要啦，可以不用參與就對了！"],["卓院長榮泰：現在的經濟部長要面對複雜的國際情勢……"],["傅委員崐萁：當時一個李國鼎、孫運璿可以造成臺灣的奇蹟，現在的郭智輝經濟部長……"],["卓院長榮泰：同樣的，我到工業區的時候，我都會感謝當時孫運璿院長、李國鼎部長，帶領那批年輕工程師締造臺灣目前的高科技產業，我都親口這樣講過。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒關係啦，院長，你已經公開講了，各時代的經濟部長不一樣，本席了解，現在是廁所裡的花瓶，完全不是核心，也沒有參與任何談判，所以第一時間，所有全國媒體問他，他都不知道這個事情。再問他川普說台積電要投資2,000億、3,000億，他說這是假新聞。這就是現在執政團隊的經濟部長，淪為國際的笑話。我為郭智輝部長抱屈啊，完全被排除在核心之外的人……"],["卓院長榮泰：並非如此。"],["傅委員崐萁：何必讓他當經濟部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這樣子講，我真的也要替他抱屈，並非如此。"],["傅委員崐萁：再來，本席請教一下，國家安全法第三條，關於國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密。台積電是不是？是不是適用國安法第三條，屬於國家核心關鍵技術？"],["卓院長榮泰：台積電不僅對國家重要、對世界重要，它當然是國家的核心關鍵技術。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。再來，公司國外投資處理辦法第六條，得不予核准的包含影響國家安全、對國家經濟發展有不利影響。請問台積電是不是對外投資？如果核心技術移走，是不是對臺灣會造成相當大的影響？","不管依照國家安全法第三條第一項、第三項，還是公司國外投資處理辦法第五條，請問一下卓院長，台積電什麼時候要送審？"],["卓院長榮泰：台積電要送審，由台積電公司他們提出來要送審，時間由他們提出，我們依據的是，包括委員剛剛所說的原則在內，我們希望它在臺灣強，但經過它審慎思考要世界布局的時候，只要合乎我們的條件，政府並不會阻擋，但是我們要求根留臺灣，我們要求臺灣「+1」，我們要求關鍵技術要留在臺灣、核心的研發留在臺灣，這個原則不變。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們現在對美有「N-1」嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們對臺灣「N+1」，對外國投資的，臺灣不能減少……"],["傅委員崐萁：對國外投資有沒有「N-1」？"],["卓院長榮泰：美國的政策，我不了解美國是不是「N-1」。你說生產技術……"],["傅委員崐萁：臺灣對外的投資……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，生產技術的關鍵要以臺灣……"],["傅委員崐萁：關鍵技術有沒有減一代出去投資，有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣一定要保持最領先的位置，所以對外國的投資都不應該把核心技術往外。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以對外投資有確實執行「N-1」嘛！好。"],["卓院長榮泰：在投審的審查過程當中一定是嚴格要求，這關係到臺灣的經濟命脈跟國家發展、國家安全。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們再來看一下，臺灣、美國，更不要說三座晶圓廠、兩座先進封裝廠，主要研發團隊都搬過去了。我們來看一下臺、日、韓因關稅對美投資承諾的比較，日本5,500億美金，韓國3,500億美金，臺灣大概多少億美金？"],["卓院長榮泰：雙方都有提出一些方案，還沒有達成協議，所以現在沒有做任何實質承諾。"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，您還是用你的老辦法，再次在國會告訴國人，還沒有達成協議。好，本席給你一個強烈的建議，日本承諾5,500億美金，是因為日本的GDP 4.1兆美元，他們大概是用國家GDP的13%承諾投資；南韓1.87兆美元的GDP，投資18.7%到美國；臺灣只要2,500億美金，就是我們GDP的32%，3,000億美金是38%，4,000億美金是51%，本席絕對不同意你們最後談成的協議，是喪權辱國，讓臺灣世代都無法承受的財政壓力。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員，這一段我記住，我請談判代表特別把傅委員所提的這一段詳細記錄出來，我們在談判的時候要用這樣的數據對外去做說明，用傅委員交給談判代表的內容，如果談判有成，我們大家一起來享受這個成果，如果談判遇到困難，我們也希望大家共同來承擔。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝。這是當然，雖然是民進黨在執政，但是今天發生問題，全民都要承擔，在野黨當然願意給我們的政府當靠山。"],["卓院長榮泰：不過我跟委員講……"],["傅委員崐萁：要談出最好的條件，必須挺直腰桿。"],["卓院長榮泰：這一些數據跟依據，以及各國GDP的比較，我們談判代表都深記在心，也都用這樣來做依據。"],["傅委員崐萁：不管對美投資是2,500億、3,000億或4,000億美金，這些有沒有包括台積電的2,000億？有沒有？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道台積電實際投資的精準數字是1,650億。"],["傅委員崐萁：目前1,650億？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：但川普大帝已經宣布為2,000億了！"],["卓院長榮泰：那他應該把……"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係，1,650億或2,000億都可以，請問有沒有包括在對美投資裡面？即中華民國對美投資的這整個區塊裡？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：就我政府立場，任何一家產業去投資，都當作是我們國家出去的投資，就我認為的政府立場是如此……"],["傅委員崐萁：好，就是包含在內嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的立場是如此……"],["傅委員崐萁：希望在談判上一定要堅持包含在內！"],["卓院長榮泰：但美方有他的方式跟時程上的斷定。"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，中油採購阿拉斯加600萬噸的天然氣有沒有包含在內？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前這個還在初步的，整個開發計畫還沒有完全成熟，還在找合作投資的對象與國家……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡代表國民黨團……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是表示，基於能源安全，我們願意購買更多安全的能源。"],["傅委員崐萁：希望購買更多安全的能源，謝謝。本席在這裡希望您能確認一件事，在與美國簽署協議之前，我希望你承諾，在對美簽署協議之前，要把完整的協議內容，不只協議內容，而是對國內產業所有衝擊及對民生影響的這份報告要送到立法院！"],["卓院長榮泰：會的。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，再過來，談判過程絕對不能降低我們的食安標準，標示等等的也不能降標！"],["卓院長榮泰：國人健康與糧食安全是四大原則裡面重要的兩項，另外兩個就是維持國家的利益跟產業的利益。"],["傅委員崐萁：對於現在20%關稅往上疊加，政府所有紓困的方式、清單要儘快送到立法院，屆時要一併送到立法院。"],["卓院長榮泰：在修正條例當中、原來的條例以及預算當中……"],["傅委員崐萁：協議內容是怎麼樣？對國內產業的解方是怎麼樣？必須要很完整地送到立法院來，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在韌性條例及修正案當中，以及未來的特別預算裡面會詳列說明。當然，如果委員提出任何詢問，各部會一定加強說明，這不僅要讓國會了解，也要讓各產業了解，這才是重點。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝。我們看一下，這是當時影響臺灣非常非常大的，不僅改變臺灣的政治方向，也讓民進黨能夠順利執政，也就是太陽花的訴求，我們看一下。","（播放影片）"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，過去是要求先立法再審查，但現在我們完完全全不知道談的內容是什麼！"],["卓院長榮泰：那是立監督兩岸的法……"],["傅委員崐萁：一樣！"],["卓院長榮泰：兩岸監督條例，現在這個不是！"],["傅委員崐萁：對外，只要把臺灣的核心搬出去，通通一樣會影響到臺灣的生存發展！卓院長，不要迴避這些問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣的核心關鍵技術不會往外移，我們至少保持最領先的這個世代，這是政府跟業界共通的共識，大家也會遵守。"],["傅委員崐萁：我現在要給您一個非常大的建議。對美的談判，卓院長要加油，鄭麗君副院長也是。本席知道你們談判很辛苦，但是要儘快有結果……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，我們努力。"],["傅委員崐萁：不能讓人民永遠在空等、苦等！本席在這裡強烈建議，當川普大帝要我們投資美國時，政府如果投資1,000億美金，那麼希望美國附帶給臺灣的條件必須要提供華爾街的融資。舉例來講，我們要投資阿拉斯加，不管是建設或建構阿拉斯加的輸氣管線，整個設備要440億美金，如果我們要投資的話，還是預購未來的600萬噸，請美國提供融資，請美國提供融資，我們投資1,000億，請他融資900億或是800億美金，這是一個方式；同時也希望美國要求我們投資的公司跟項目，請他們用公司債的方式發CP，有保證投報率，我們來購買他的CP，一切的建設由他自行操作，但是投報率必須高於他們給我們的貸款利率，這才能確保臺灣的經濟不會被損耗掉。卓院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：阿拉斯加天然氣的這個投資案不是美國單獨或是美國跟臺灣兩國，是一個國際性、世界性，現在都在討論的，也有多個國家提出興趣，我認為……"],["傅委員崐萁：國際性更應該要這麼做嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我認為會有一套標準……"],["傅委員崐萁：國際性更應該要這麼做嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為會有一個標準是各國可以通用或是可以大體通用的一個方式，我們當然會站在國家立場，對於委員所提的，我們都曾經這樣設想過許多的方案，但還不到那個時候、還不到那個時候。"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，本席跟你強烈建議要這麼做，這個才不會拖垮臺灣的財政跟臺灣的產業。"],["卓院長榮泰：就談判的方式來講，我們現在還沒有到那個程度，我們不會輕易提出我們的方案、條件……"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，既然是一個多國成立的公司，更應該讓美國政府用國家的力量……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以他一定有一個國際標準……"],["傅委員崐萁：讓這家公司能夠儘快的在美國上市，在美國IPO、發行公司債，有保障的投報必須高於華爾街所提供的銀行利息，才能讓我們國家的經濟立於不敗之地。卓院長，請你慎思。","再來，我們現在的AI產業要代表我們整個國家在未來世界的科技發展裡面還在領先群，AI要用多少的電力啊？卓院長，電力就是國力、就是戰力，我們如果沒有電的話，以我們現在的配比來看，80%火力發電，火力發電是大家用肺發電，本席希望給您建議，這一次對美的投資，前天舉辦的公投，希望重啟核三的臺灣人民，與不希望、不同意重啟核三相比是三倍的民意，三倍的民意！因為大家不希望用昂貴的電讓國家沒有競爭力。本席希望您這次對美談判，也把最先進、最安全、全世界都期待的小型核能列入投資亦或是政府必須購買的項目裡面，可以讓臺灣的電力不虞匱乏，讓全世界最先進的產業、科技產業能夠走進臺灣，讓臺灣能夠吸收更多的國際投資進來，因為他們第一個問的就是有沒有電力。卓院長，可以把它納入嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們說過新的核能技術，總統也講過，先進的核能技術都是未來我們可以開放討論、接受學習的目標，它如果真的可以解決安全的問題，沒有核廢料的問題，而我們共同都有社會高度的共識，這個就會成為未來臺灣能源政策一種新的思考模式。"],["傅委員崐萁：卓院長，臺灣不是世界最先進的國家，先進國家的能源是怎麼使用、怎麼配比，這是臺灣政府要好好來學習的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，但臺灣是一個地窄人稠的國家。"],["傅委員崐萁：不要一味的用教條式的話術，人民已經投完票了，請尊重……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們採取開放的態度啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：請尊重民意去做政策的調整、做政策的調整。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們尊重結果，相信科學，我們願意來共同討論。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們就來看看川普怎麼說的，他直接拆穿了這個世紀謊言，什麼風電、太陽能，看看先進國家的思維是什麼，我們不要還在滿清皇朝……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，這個標題不對，他是對他國內講啦！他沒有拆穿民進黨的謊言……"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係啦！你剛剛提的，本席尊重。"],["卓院長榮泰：民進黨的政策，我們會知道，要跟國家與時俱進，我們會做相同的討論。"],["傅委員崐萁：他在講他國內的風電、太陽能是世紀謊言，那跟我們這邊你們的堅持不是一樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那你這樣好像說川普……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們堅持要風電、太陽能。他講那是世紀謊言，那不是戳破大家講的嗎？本席已經尊重你了，不要再那個了嘛！對不對？不要再背離民意，也不要背離產業，不要把臺灣的產業都趕出去，對不對？","我們看一下價格，外購風電6.59元，台電公布的，太陽能光電4.87元，核能發電1.38元。院長，希望這一張您貼在床頭，每天睡覺前看一下。臺灣要怎麼發展、人民怎麼生存？請重視一下。","我們現在用肺發電，排碳連續9年破9,000萬噸，要臺灣人民用肺發電，人民已經做出了選擇，請政府適可而止，好不好？我們現在再討論一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的碳排量是逐年在下降，台電提出過多次精準的數據，可以提供給委員參考。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在時間很有限。國防預算9,495億創新高，有沒有包括這次對美的包裹、所有這些軍購的採購都在裡面？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是明年的總預算，加上部分過去的特別預算，為數不多，就是總預算，但我們採行的是北約通案的算法，把海巡、退撫都加進來才達到這個數字。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們現在GDP是3.3%，明年這個占GDP3.3%，本席在這裡給你建議，代表國民黨黨團。2001年阿扁執政，當時2,377億的國防預算，現在9,495億的國防預算，剛好4倍、剛好4倍！當時的人均GDP是1萬3,400美元，現在是3萬4,000美元，我們的經濟成長只有2.5倍，但是我們的國防預算增加了4倍，還不包括我不曉得9月份會不會又送了一個大禮包來……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我說過了，我們現在的算法是採取北約模式，把退撫、海巡等等加進來，把資安加進來，才達到這九千多億，否則我們的數字……"],["傅委員崐萁：請問卓院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以不是你剛剛說的4倍。"],["傅委員崐萁：你把這個加進來，2001年阿扁執政，這些沒有加進來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那時候沒有採北約模式，是我們原來的數字，是六千多億的數字。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問一下當時沒有退撫嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是沒有加進來算國防預算……"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在加進來，所以才有這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在在提醒您的是，我們的經濟成長只有2.5倍，不管你現在是4倍的國防預算增加、3.5倍的國防預算增加，還是3倍也好，經濟成長的腳步都趕不上。卓院長，本席要特別提醒你一下，1960年到1990年，美國跟蘇聯的爭霸，美國用圍堵政策，讓蘇聯軍備競賽，經濟被圍堵，用一樣的軍費大家火拼，到最後經濟跟不上，30年的時間，蘇聯因為經濟崩潰而解體。如果我們今天沒有足夠的經濟實力來充實國防，卓院長，這不只對國家財政是沉重的負擔，我們所有的民生、所有的這些支持都會遭到排擠。在這裡，這個故事本席特別要再講一次。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，兩句話，我們是基於國家的主權、安全維護，考量到我們的財政能力，所以有很多，包括不對稱戰爭的因素，我們採取國家對國防的需求，總統在2月就提出了……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以國軍將士的加給2萬塊還是不給？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統在今年4月已經核定了國軍的加給、各類的加給，我們希望能夠緩緩的上升。"],["傅委員崐萁：給國軍的加給從1萬到3萬，本席希望在預算書送到立法院來的時候本席要看見。沒有強健的國軍願意為國犧牲、奮戰，買再多的武器都是枉然。"],["卓院長榮泰：很抱歉，這個在預算當中沒有編列，但是我們說過，我們提出釋憲，俟有釋憲結果之後，我們會照……"],["傅委員崐萁：對不起……"],["卓院長榮泰：釋憲的結果……"],["傅委員崐萁：總統府公告，你就要實施，在實施的同時，你可以去釋憲，請依法、不要違法……"],["卓院長榮泰：在釋憲結果之後……"],["傅委員崐萁：釋憲是你的權利，但是要依法先實施……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以依照釋憲的結果編或不編，如果編的話會同時補足，謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡最後苦口婆心，50年前東南亞經濟最強盛的國家叫做菲律賓，但是出了一個馬可仕總統，他的腐敗讓菲律賓人三代為奴，臺灣三代人的努力，我們一定要守住、一定要守住，希望卓院長腰桿挺直跟美國人談判，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們堅持國家立場。另外，許委員跟林委員有任何的指教，我們歡迎會後進行……"],["委員許宇甄書面補充資料：","「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」報告質詢資料（書面質詢）","題1：院長，台美貿易談判相關問題，您和賴總統一再強調因為「與美國簽了保密協定」，所以不能對立法院、不能對國人報告談判內容。但是保密協定（NDA）在國際上從來不是「絕對保密」，而是「有限制的保密」，一定都會設有例外條款。這不是我個人的見解，而是有明確案例：","美國能源部（DOE）的 NDA 條款就寫明：「已公開或非因接收方過失而成為公開的資訊，不受保密限制。」","美國司法部（DOJ）更清楚地寫進去：「若法律、法院或國會要求，接收方可以揭露資訊。」","而且，美國還有《吹哨者保護法》，確保政府不得以 NDA 限制員工向國會或監察機關揭露違法行為。這些例子充分證明：只要和美國政府簽署保密協定，就一定會包含例外條款。尤其是「國會要求揭露」這一點，民主國家的  NDA 一定會保留，不能凌駕國會監督。","院長，既然國際上所有的 NDA，尤其是美國政府簽訂的 NDA，都有例外條款。相信如果美國參眾兩院要求行政部門提供談判情況，美國行政部門不會以因為與他國簽訂保密協定，所以不能跟國會報告。","1.請問院長，我國和美國簽署的保密協定，是否也包含相關的例外條款？","2.院長有責任回覆立法院的監督，談判團隊不能用保密協議定當藉口，雙方簽署保密協定，但川普對外都可以一直講，唯獨賴清德、卓榮泰不敢講，也不願意回答國會監督問題，您們是不是已經將台灣賣了所以才要閉口不談？","題2：院長，就算簽了保密協定，國會依法要求行政院報告，行政院就必須說明談判過程。這一點保密協定例外條款明明就允許。","我國《條約締結法》第六條規定：「主辦機關於條約草案內容獲致協議前，得就談判之方針、原則及可能爭議事項，適時向立法院說明並向立法院相關委員會報告。」","《貿易法》第八條也有規定：「有關經濟貿易事務與外國談判及簽署協定或協議前，主管機關或行政院指定之機關得視需要會同立法院及相關部會或機關舉辦公聽會或徵詢學者專家及相關業者之意見。」","1.法律明明規定要向國會負責，為什麼行政院拒絕向立法院說明清楚？你們根本是把「談判機密」和「黑箱作業」混為一談！你們就是在搞黑箱！","題3：院長，美國作為我們的談判對象，他們的行政部門談判完畢後，仍然必須面對美國國會的監督與審查，這是民主制度的基本原則。反觀台灣，行政院卻拿「保密協定」當理由，拒絕向立法院報告。","請問院長，為什麼在美國國會可以知道、可以監督，而台灣的國會卻要被排除在外？這是不是明顯違背民主精神？","當年反服貿時，民進黨痛批國民黨政府「用談判機密為由拒絕報告，就是黑箱作業」。今天輪到民進黨執政，卻把保密協定當作遮羞布。院長，這是不是徹底的雙重標準？是不是打了自己過去的臉？民主制度中，強調行政部門要對國會與人民交代，行政院為什麼還要隱瞞？"],["委員林倩綺書面補充資料：","案由：針對「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響」專案報告，本席認為涉及我國食安、農業、產業安全及談判透明，攸關國家利益與全民健康，爰提出質詢，請行政院及相關部會首長限期答覆，並提出具體方案。","說明：","一、堅守食安與農業底線","美國日前對我國課徵20%暫時性關稅，雙方持續磋商。外界憂心，美方將要求我國放寬美國牛肉內臟及絞肉進口，甚至調高豬腎萊克多巴胺殘留容許值，由現行0.04ppm放寬至0.09ppm，作為降低關稅之籌碼。此舉係攸關國人健康的核心問題。專家已警告，萊劑可能對高血壓、心血管疾病患者造成重大風險。若未經健康風險評估與民意凝聚，即受外壓草率拍板，後果將不堪設想。","此外，農業界同樣憂心。台灣稻米自給率高達99%，是糧食安全之基石。若降低稻米關稅或擴大配額，將直接衝擊農村生計與就業。日本曾以稻米讓步換取關稅減讓，但台灣情況完全不同，不宜貿然跟進。","本席要求行政院於一週內書面答覆：","(一)是否承諾任何萊劑殘留值調整必須重啟健康風險評估，並凝聚專業與民意共識，絕不得僅因談判壓力草率決定？","(二)是否承諾不會在談判桌上犧牲牛豬產地標示制度，以保障消費者知情權與選擇權？","(三)農業是否已被明確列為談判底線？如需談判讓步，是否優先考慮其他非農業方式（如對美投資或產業合作），而非犧牲農業與糧食安全？","總統承諾守護糧食安全，行政院應清楚向國人說明：農業是否為最後一道紅線。","二、232條款與產業利益之保障","副院長既已表示，20%疊加關稅非最終目標，台灣將爭取合理且不疊加的稅率，並在232條款及供應鏈合作持續談判。然而，目前投資金額與承諾條件進度，國內毫無清晰資訊。","觀察其他國家：","日本承諾投資5,500億美元、採購800億美元，並投資149億美元收購美國鋼鐵公司，換得汽車15%關稅優惠及半導體、藥品最低稅率。","韓國承諾投資3,500億美元，另加1,000億美元採購，九成收益歸美國，換得汽車最惠國待遇及半導體、醫藥品最有利條件。","歐盟承諾投資6,000億美元、採購7,500億美元能源，換得汽車、半導體、藥品15%優惠關稅。","數據清楚顯示：日本5,500億、韓國3,500億、歐盟6,000億。台灣至今卻未提出具體投資方案。","本席要求行政院於一週內書面答覆：","(一)台灣是否能確保，在232條款下，半導體與藥品至少比照日、韓、歐盟，取得優惠稅率待遇？","(二)台灣投資承諾方案為何？除直接投資外，是否考慮結合華爾街金融市場融資工具，以降低國內財政與產業壓力，同時滿足美方期待？","(三)國防預算是否已明訂為經貿談判之排除項目？未來是否設定底線，避免軍購與國防支出成為談判籌碼？","(四)行政院是否承諾，所有投資承諾與談判交換，須經完整評估，並接受國會監督，以避免密室協商犧牲產業利益？","三、談判資訊透明與國會監督","台美關稅談判涉及經貿、食安、農業、產業等全方位衝擊，若政府以「談判保密」為由全面拒絕揭露，產業界無所適從，國會亦難以有效監督。日本在談判期間，首相及各大臣均曾對外說明底線與困境，以爭取民意支持、形成談判籌碼。","本席要求行政院建立「階段性公開透明機制」：","(一)定期向立法院報告談判進度與底線，並接受質詢。","(二)針對涉及產業重大利益之議題，應與產業界進行意見溝通，作為談判依循。","請於一個月內提出具體因應制度，落實透明與監督，避免談判流於密室決策。"],["主席：謝謝傅委員、許委員還有林委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163594","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adcec940276f531b608c0ac07f6ba1e1b090d65982d227f84af66bd7c4c758768765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:23:23 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第21天我喜歡你的正能量您是第21天單一會期來到立法院備詢這是前所未有代表行政團隊面對國會監督絕不逃避這是我們的責任就以專案報告"},{"start":62.987,"end":81.922,"text":"加上明天后天这个会期是七次专案报告也是史上新高这也代表国会关切的议题行政部门也绝对来直求对决而今天更是我们有史以来行政院的副院长第一次站上质询台备询台"},{"start":82.489,"end":103.477,"text":"因為您要為我們的談判來對國人做更多的說明那首先 真的這是最辛苦的內閣團隊卓院長也是史上最辛苦的行政院長 您同意大家都辛苦了那我自己也常常自嘲啊我是民進黨團有史以來最苦命的阿信幹事長"},{"start":105.729,"end":118.881,"text":"這段時間我們面臨了挫敗所以說內閣快速的要進行改組而我也認為行政立法一體立法院黨團也不可自外於這一次我們重整隊形"},{"start":120.262,"end":143.837,"text":"的這一個階段跟這一個陣容當中所以說我個人認為我也呼籲當行政部門來進行改組要反守為攻要主導議題同樣的立法院黨團我們也在重整隊形要擴大參與我們共同的目標就是一樣的"},{"start":145.419,"end":157.31,"text":"對內要強化整合在內閣是強化各部會的整合在立院黨團是強化五一戰隊之間意見的包容跟討論但是我們一致的對外"},{"start":158.916,"end":179.111,"text":"對在野黨我們要增進溝通對外面對中國面對世界變局我們都要勇敢前進首先我先給你們莫大的期許因為您也多次的請辭受到總統要求您繼續承擔的慰留"},{"start":180.853,"end":189.966,"text":"這也是我對五一戰隊的自我鞭策我們首先先用這樣的正能量跟彼此的鼓舞來開啟今天的質詢"},{"start":191.724,"end":214.65,"text":"那我上面下了一個標喔Never let a good crisis go to waste是我在4月11號那時候也針對關稅的談判我做的質詢的題目我今天依舊沿用因為它依舊是重要的前提面對關稅的談判我們要化險為夷佈局未來我們要轉為維安"},{"start":216.75,"end":235.096,"text":"如果看在失敗主義者的眼中這一次美國開啟的全球關稅大作戰恐怕會是大災難但是如果看在做好準備的人的身上我們不當犧牲者我們要當獲利者在國際的"},{"start":236.676,"end":263.918,"text":"全新經貿的新秩序當中台灣要能夠搶得先機創造無可取代的地位首先這是我看待這一次國際談判非常重要的一個目標不是指因應眼前的談判的輸贏更是對準長城國家經貿發展的願景副院長您都同意您也是抱持這樣子的態度在進行談判的過程是不是"},{"start":264.745,"end":284.706,"text":"是謝謝委員我想首先感謝大院讓我個人今日能夠除了陪同院長也能夠上台來備詢來向大院來說明談判的情形那如剛剛卓院長所報告的目前我國取得談判的是一個階段性的結果"},{"start":285.165,"end":302.802,"text":"也就是原稅率加上對等關稅20%那談判團隊還在持續努力當中那我回國之後我們8月7號8月8號二度跟美方持續的視訊那就在上週五8月22號我們在進行第三次的視訊"},{"start":303.843,"end":317.455,"text":"所以這也表示台美雙方還在持續的談判當中那我們後續談判的目標如院長所宣示的我們要爭取更好更合理的對等關稅希望把20%的對等關稅再往下降"},{"start":320.337,"end":342.822,"text":"並且也要爭取不疊加原來的MFN原有的稅率另外因為我們的出口結構裡面超過七成是半導體及ICT產品美方正在232的調查當中所以美方也希望南美雙方持續就232一併協商需要多一點時間討論所以我們一併爭取232關稅後續可能的優惠方案"},{"start":347.783,"end":362.434,"text":"這是我們後續談判的三大目標我們一定全力以赴好 謝謝副院長的說明所以您的談判您領導的團隊就如同賴總統一再的定謀的不只是因應眼前的關稅談判長城的國際經貿市"},{"start":365.476,"end":382.466,"text":"新秩序台灣無可取代的地位我們要搶得先機下一頁我回顧這145天以來當川普對全球開了這一槍其實no one is outsider180多個國家同受衝擊"},{"start":384.627,"end":408.164,"text":"當時的在野黨一直說這是國難下一頁但事實證明這是全球都在承受衝擊而什麼是國難如果台灣的社會經貿的實力沒有底氣如果台灣的政府沒有充足的準備如果台灣的在野勢力並不忠誠恐怕才是真正的國難"},{"start":409.69,"end":427.322,"text":"但是可操之在我的部分我們全力以赴不可操之在我的部分我們強化溝通下一頁這145天以來我當時4月11號也是第一位朝野立委站上質詢台的立委代表"},{"start":428.223,"end":452.298,"text":"我感同身受我們談判團隊內外交迫先講在台灣的內部我們充斥著非常多在野勢力的唱衰我們承受著非常多不明就裡的謠言我們更面對著在野黨不斷的惡意的貼上黑箱的標籤我們來講唱衰好了"},{"start":454.119,"end":478.934,"text":"大家還記得四月份嗎當川普公布了這個關稅的這個衝擊的時候在野黨第一時間講的是什麼他們要罷免川普對美國報復要申請釋憲要停止一切對美國的投資更集中火力要求政府要強化開放對中國市場的投資"},{"start":480.444,"end":500.816,"text":"如果當時聽從藍白立委的意見我看適用中國不管從145%的對等關稅或是現在55%的對等關稅如果聽從藍白擁抱中國市場的老路這才是國難這才是災難這是4月份下一頁"},{"start":501.556,"end":525.902,"text":"我們來看看七八月份當暫時性關稅開始揭露了在野黨的委員們這些政治領袖們又開始說32%是嚴重的挫敗暫時性的關稅是一場騙局甚至民眾黨一再的操作這是黑箱資訊不公開但是事實證明下一頁"},{"start":527.765,"end":545.779,"text":"造謠謠言並不成立上週末的這個新聞報導居然能夠很鉅細靡遺的來說明現在談判的進程台灣將取消農產品汽車藥品的關稅全開放半導體ICT對美國投資2500億採購能源國防農產品高達3000億請問你們已經明確的澄清這是謠言嗎對不對副院長"},{"start":556.199,"end":574.091,"text":"是 我們在當天我們行政院經貿辦公室以及相關部會都有對社會來說明有關媒體所述的相關數字跟項目其實跟我們談判情形有所出入而且最重要是未經向經貿辦以及部會來查證"},{"start":575.172,"end":593.385,"text":"那我們也速度跟國人來說明現在談判還在持續進行當中一旦台灣和美方達成協議我們的協議一定會送國會審議也會向社會充分的說明所以這個謠言被打臉了下一個謠言呢美國要求台積電入股"},{"start":594.636,"end":622.234,"text":"郝离家在魏哲嘉董事长亲自出面证实美国政府并没有也不会要求入股台积电不要担心台积电变美积电当然我知道我们谨守奋计我们不替台积电民间的企业来发言但是就以魏哲嘉董事长的发言再一次打脸了这些恶意操作的谣言所以讲完唱晖讲完谣言我们来讲讲黑箱"},{"start":623.917,"end":648.309,"text":"事實上我同意執政團隊必須竭盡一切的所能把所有的資訊一講再講多講都沒有關係當時我們被在野黨貼上談判黑箱是說我們並沒有對外說明關稅計算是疊加的我認為我們對社會的說明可以再加強但是我要對於在野黨"},{"start":649.963,"end":678.862,"text":"二代風向提出我很大的挑戰為什麼呢除了4月4號行政院團隊的關稅因應記者會上已經清楚說明這是疊加之外卓院長特別慎重4月7號邀請了朝野各個黨團的黨編進行政院再次說明我們的所有因應作為對不對也是在那場會議上您提出我們希望爭取在野委員來"},{"start":680.043,"end":708.595,"text":"合作推動我們的任性條例以及特別預算其實在4月7號當我們就在行政院的那個會議室裡頭我們的副院長也好院長也好楊珍妮代表也好再一次說明關稅的計算方式疊加就再一次的說明如果連在野黨的委員親自在場親自聆聽對外他還是要說這是黑箱我萬萬不可接受"},{"start":709.878,"end":738.178,"text":"所以我們看看台經院的張院長說的關稅疊加這個產業界跟學術界早就知道但我們都同意對社會擴大說明也包括中經院的連銘賢院長也說了關稅疊加這是原則台灣當然適用原則而不是適用例外所以我在這裡要說下一頁我們不只沒有黑箱我們做到史上前所未有的透明公開甚至是全球警戒"},{"start":739.628,"end":765.851,"text":"8月7號我們主動向國會揭露了關稅談判的保密協議院長這是全球警見吧世界各國副院長沒有任何一個國家國會要求國家出示這個保密協議但是我們我們主動揭露透明向國會說明是感謝大院用機密會議的方式所以說這是全球警見的透明公開連保密協議都公開了"},{"start":766.631,"end":783.718,"text":"8月11號我們的專屬線上的網站上線了第一時間及時對於國會跟產業來揭露我們所有的政策因應以及今天8月25號即便談判中我們負責任向國會報告目前可以說明的部分而最終如果談判結束"},{"start":785.819,"end":805.653,"text":"國會保留我們一切資訊都會向國會公開而且要通過國會的審查跟監督所以這是史上沒有的透明公開更是全球沒有人做到的台灣做到了我請在野黨不要再用黑箱這種惡質的標籤貼在我們辛苦的談判團隊的身上下一頁"},{"start":806.554,"end":830.669,"text":"回到談判本身有很多不可操之在我的部分當然就是川普為了美國利益的優先美國的再工業化美國的解決他的貿易逆差當然也要解決他對中戰略的競爭下一頁而可操之在我的部分就是台灣的ICT產業全球稱霸的地位我們能夠爭取讓談判的戰線延長"},{"start":833.971,"end":862.486,"text":"所以說談得好跟談得快我們選擇談得好只要能夠繼續談就是一個好事代表我們能夠持續爭取這也是我執政黨團支持我們談判團隊不要設定所謂快談快好這種目標我們的目標是談得好讓全國產業都受惠下一頁但是國會不要成為談判的不利因素啊"},{"start":863.486,"end":883.844,"text":"剛剛院長所說的為了全球的投資安全為了全球的公平貿易為了全球打擊洗產地川普這一次是重中之重要不要再一次呼籲在野黨的委員應當撤回離島建設條例這種洗產地的條例因為這會造成我們談判的不利因素來院長"},{"start":886.026,"end":907.465,"text":"針對這個條例剛剛委員所說的行政院完全支持委員剛剛所說的我認為我們現在要展現國內團結一致就是我們對於這樣息產地違規轉運的房子我們是有能力有責任做好的這個雖然不直接對談判有利但展現一個保護我國產業也讓世界覺得這個區域的經濟安全我們是有責任的"},{"start":907.685,"end":921.513,"text":"所以博會切莫不只沒幫忙還幫到忙我再一次呼籲離島建設條例不要強硬的來推動我用這個來做結論當全球都在擴大對美投資台灣就應當勇敢迎向國際經貿的新秩序抗拒不如早去"},{"start":936.527,"end":958.463,"text":"我支持你們用一個更長程的經貿共同的面向跟目標來看待這一次的關稅的談判旅行旅行被外界扭曲歪樓成為我們捧的大錢去揍美國我們要向社會呈現我們不是白白的捧錢去投資美國"},{"start":987.835,"end":988.235,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員"},{"start":997.528,"end":998.208,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員我們時間到了謝謝吳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":131,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（9時23分）謝謝主席。有請卓院長，也請鄭副院長一起。"],["主席：請卓院長、鄭副院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：所有的內閣團隊還有談判代表，大家都辛苦了。卓院長，您知道嗎？今天是您這個會期第幾天來到立法院，你有算過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是沒有算過，每次來都很快樂。"],["吳委員思瑤：我替您算過了。好，是第21天，我喜歡你的正能量。您是單一會期第21天來到立法院備詢，這是前所未有，您代表行政團隊面對國會監督，絕不逃避。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們的責任。"],["吳委員思瑤：就以專案報告，加上明天、後天，這個會期是7次專案報告，也是史上新高，這也代表國會關切的議題，行政部門也絕對直球對決，而今天更是我們有史以來行政院副院長第一次站上備詢臺，因為您要為我們的談判對國人做更多的說明。首先，這真的是最辛苦的內閣團隊，卓院長也是史上最辛苦的行政院長，您同意……"],["卓院長榮泰：大家都辛苦了。"],["吳委員思瑤：我自己也常常自嘲，我是民進黨團有史以來最苦命的阿信幹事長，這段時間我們面臨了挫敗，所以說內閣要快速進行改組，而我也認為行政立法一體，立法院黨團也不可自外於這一次我們重整隊形的階段跟陣容當中，所以我個人認為我也呼籲，當行政部門進行改組，要反守為攻、要主導議題；同樣地，立法院黨團我們也在重整隊形，要擴大參與，我們共同的目標就是一樣的，對內要強化整合，在內閣是強化各部會的整合，在立院黨團是強化五一戰隊之間意見的包容跟討論，但是我們一致地對外，對在野黨，我們要增進溝通；對外面、對中國、面對世界變局，我們都要勇敢前進。首先，我先給你們莫大的期許，因為您也多次請辭，受到總統要求您繼續承擔的慰留，這也是我對五一戰隊的自我鞭策，我們首先先用這樣的正能量跟彼此的鼓舞來開啟今天的質詢。","我上面下了一個標「Never let a good crisis go to waste.」也是我在4月11日那時候針對關稅談判所質詢的題目，我今天依舊沿用，因為它依舊是重要的前提。面對關稅的談判，我們要化險為夷，布局未來我們要轉危為安，如果看在失敗主義者的眼中，這一次美國開啟的全球關稅大作戰恐怕會是大災難，但是如果看在做好準備的人身上，我們不當犧牲者，我們要當獲利者，在國際全新經貿的新秩序當中，臺灣要能夠搶得先機，創造無可取代的地位，首先這是我看待這一次國際談判非常重要的一個目標，不是只因應眼前談判的輸贏，更是對準長程國家經貿發展的願景，副院長您都同意，您也是抱持這樣子的態度在進行談判，是不是？"],["鄭副院長麗君：是，謝謝委員，我想首先感謝大院讓我個人今日能夠除了陪同院長，也能夠上台備詢，向大院說明談判的情形。如剛剛卓院長所報告的，目前我國的談判取得了一個階段性的結果，也就是原稅率加上對等關稅20%，談判團隊還在持續努力當中。我回國之後，我們8月7號、8月8號，二度跟美方持續視訊，就在上週五（8月22號），我們再進行第三次的視訊，所以這也表示臺美雙方還在持續談判當中。我們後續談判的目標如院長所宣示的，我們要爭取更好、更合理的對等關稅，希望把20%的對等關稅……"],["吳委員思瑤：再往下調。"],["鄭副院長麗君：能夠再往下降，並且也要爭取……"],["吳委員思瑤：不疊加。"],["鄭副院長麗君：不疊加MFN原有的稅率。另外，因為我們的出口結構裡面超過七成是半導體及ICT產品，美方正就232條款在調查當中，所以……"],["吳委員思瑤：我們也要爭取232最好的優惠。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們也希望臺美雙方持續就232一併協商，需要多一點時間討論，所以我們一併爭取232關稅後續可能的優惠方案，這是我們後續談判的三大目標，我們一定全力以赴。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝副院長說明。所以您的談判、你領導的團隊，就如同賴總統一再定錨的，不只是因應眼前的關稅談判、長程的國際經貿新秩序、臺灣無可取代的地位，我們要搶得先機。我回顧這145天以來，當川普對全球開了這一槍，其實no one is outsider，一百八十多個國家同受衝擊，當時在野黨一直說這是國難，但事實證明這是全球都在承受衝擊，而什麼是國難？如果臺灣的社會、經貿的實力沒有底氣，如果臺灣的政府沒有充足的準備、如果臺灣的在野勢力並不忠誠，恐怕才是真正的國難！但是可操之在我的部分，我們全力以赴；不可操之在我的部分，我們強化溝通。","這145天以來，當時4月11號，我是朝野立委第一位站上質詢臺的立委代表，我感同身受，我們談判團隊內外交迫。先講在臺灣的內部，我們充斥著非常多在野勢力的唱衰，我們承受著非常多不明就裡的謠言，我們更面對著在野黨不斷地、惡意地貼上黑箱的標籤。","我們來講唱衰好了，大家還記得四月份嗎？當川普公布了關稅衝擊的時候，在野黨第一時間講的是什麼？他們要罷免川普、對美國報復、要聲請釋憲、要停止一切對美國的投資，更集中火力要求政府要強化開放對中國市場的投資。如果當時聽從藍白立委的意見，我看會適用中國不管從145%的對等關稅或是現在55%的對等關稅，如果聽從藍白擁抱中國市場的老路，這才是國難、這才是災難，這是四月份。","我們來看看七、八月份，當暫時性關稅開始揭露了，在野黨的委員們、這些政治領袖們又開始說，32%是嚴重的挫敗、暫時性的關稅是一場騙局，甚至民眾黨一再地操作這是黑箱資訊不公開，但是事實證明謠言並不成立。上週末的新聞報導居然能夠很鉅細靡遺地說明現在談判的進程，臺灣將取消農產品、汽車、藥品的關稅，市場全面開放；半導體ICT對美國投資2,500億；採購能源、國防、農產品高達3,000億，請問你們已經明確的澄清這是謠言嘛！對不對？副院長。"],["鄭副院長麗君：是。當天，行政院經貿辦公室以及相關部會都有對社會說明，有關媒體所述的相關數字及項目，其實跟我們談判情形有所出入，而且最重要的是，未經向經貿辦以及部會查證。我們也數度跟國人說明，現在談判還在持續進行當中，一旦臺灣和美方達成協議……"],["吳委員思瑤：一定會主動跟大家說明。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們的協議一定會送國會審議，也會向社會充分的說明。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這個謠言被打臉了。下一個謠言呢？美國要求台積電入股，幸好魏哲家董事長親自出面證實，美國政府並沒有也不會要求入股台積電，不要擔心台積電被變美積電。當然我知道我們謹守分際，我們不替台積電、民間企業來發言，但是就以魏哲家董事長的發言，再一次打臉了這些惡意操作的謠言，所以講完唱衰、講完謠言，我們來講講黑箱。","事實上，我同意執政團隊必須竭盡一切所能把所有資訊一講再講，多講都沒有關係，當時我們被在野黨貼上談判黑箱是說，我們並沒有對外說明關稅計算是疊加的，我認為我們對社會的說明可以再加強，但是我要對於在野黨惡帶風向提出我很大的挑戰，為什麼呢？除了4月4日行政院團隊的關稅因應記者會上已經清楚說明這是疊加之外，卓院長特別慎重，4月7日邀請了朝野各個黨團的黨鞭進行政院再次說明我們的所有因應作為，對不對？也是在那一場會議上，您提出我們希望爭取在野委員合作推動我們的韌性條例以及特別預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：其實在4月7日，當我們就在行政院的會議室裡頭，我們的副院長也好、院長也好、楊珍妮代表也好，再一次說明關稅的計算方式是疊加，就再一次地說明，如果連在野黨的委員親自在場、親自聆聽，對外他還是要說這是黑箱，我萬萬不可接受。我們看看台經院的張院長說的，他說關稅疊加產業界與學術界早就知道。但我們都同意對社會擴大說明；包括中經院的連明賢院長也說了，關稅疊加是原則，臺灣當然是適用原則，而不是適用例外。所以我在這裡要說，我們不只沒有黑箱，我們做到史上前所未有的透明、公開，甚至是全球僅見。8月7號我們主動向國會揭露了關稅談判的保密協議，院長，這是全球僅見吧？副院長，世界各國沒有任何一個國家的國會要求……"],["鄭副院長麗君：是，目前沒有其他國家出示保密協議，但是我們……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，我們主動揭露。"],["鄭副院長麗君：基於公開、透明，向國會說明，感謝大院用機密會議的方式讓我們可以出示文件。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以說這是全球僅見的透明公開，連保密協議都公開了。8月11號，專屬的線上網站上線了，第一時間即時對國會跟產業揭露我們所有的政策因應；今天8月25號，即便談判中，我們負責任地向國會報告目前可以說明的部分，而最終如果談判結束，國會保留，一切資訊都會向國會公開，而且要通過國會的審查及監督，所以這是史上從沒有過的透明、公開，更是全球沒有人做到的，臺灣做到了，我請在野黨不要再用黑箱這種惡質的標籤貼在我們辛苦的談判團隊身上。","回到談判本身，有很多不可操之在我的部分，當然這是川普為了美國利益的優先，美國的再工業化、美國要解決它的貿易逆差，當然也要解決它對中戰略的競爭；而可操之在我的部分就是臺灣的ICT產業全球稱霸的地位，我們能夠爭取讓談判的戰線延長，所以說談得好跟談得快，我們選擇談得好，只要能夠繼續談就是一個好事，代表我們能夠持續爭取，這也是我執政黨團支持我們談判團隊不要設定所謂快談快好的這種目標，我們的目標是談得好，讓全國產業都受惠。但是國會不要成為談判的不利因素，剛剛院長所說的，為了全球的投資安全、為了全球的公平貿易、為了全球打擊洗產地，是川普這一次的重中之重，要不要再一次呼籲在野黨的委員應當撤回離島建設條例這種洗產地的條例，因為這會造成我們談判的不利因素？院長。"],["桌院長榮泰：針對這個條例，剛剛委員所說的，行政院完全支持委員剛剛所說的，我認為我們現在要展現國內團結一致，就是對於這樣洗產地違規轉運的防止，我們是有能力、有責任做好的，這個雖然不直接對談判有利，但展現出的是保護我國產業，也讓世界覺得這個區域的經濟安全我們是有責任的，所以相對我們是加分的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以國會切莫不只沒幫忙，還幫倒忙，我再次呼籲離島建設條例不要強硬地推動。","我後面還有20頁沒辦法講完，我用這個來做結論，當全球都在擴大對美投資，臺灣就應當勇敢迎向國際經貿的新秩序，抗拒不如早去，而且這是國際趨勢，我支持你們用一個更長程的經貿布局面向跟目標來看待這次的關稅談判，與其被外界扭曲跟歪樓成為我們捧著大錢去送給美國，我們要向社會呈現，我們不是白白捧錢去投資美國，我們要做的是跟美國、跟世界各國一起來賺大錢，院長同意這樣的觀點嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們布局全球，行銷全世界。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以這是一個最終……我相信也是朝野攻防的一個重點，我再說一次，臺灣不是白白捧錢去投資美國，是當全球都在大力投資美國的同時，臺灣要搶得先機……"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：臺灣跟美國及其他半導體的科技產業一起來賺大錢、一起來互利互惠、一起來創造臺灣更大的利基，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，時間到了。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天時間掌握不好，下次有機會再討論，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員、謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長。","下一位傅崐萁委員、許宇甄委員、林倩綺委員聯合質詢，時間45分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adcbd24ecbe8ec17ec3c0ac07f6ba1e1b096ca31dfe1e8320cc3e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"16:50:01 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額度能夠更高我們從他提出來的問題來講就好了真的只有關稅的問題嗎"},{"start":161.929,"end":172.081,"text":"有沒有人跟你提台幣升值造成的衝擊有沒有產業提到外移供應鏈斷鏈的問題這些問題有沒有在這些會議裡面討論應該會有提到勞工不足的問題"},{"start":173.11,"end":202.65,"text":"勞工不足是本來就有 產業侮缺是從好幾朝以前到現在一直都存在的問題我要問的是你這一連串下鄉你都是在問台美這一波的貿易談判造成的衝擊除了關稅以外他們有沒有提其他的面向應該都有提到我現在就擔心了為什麼呢因為我看你今天這一本今天你來國會專案報告我們都很高興總算大家要討論國政但是你今天這一本裡面我還是沒有看到除了關稅以外其他衝擊的部分"},{"start":204.151,"end":224.772,"text":"對不對 你這一本幾乎都還是在寫關稅衝擊啊因為名稱就是關稅談判的進程方針原則我當然了解啦 這就是本席要提醒你的地方就是說你政府在下鄉 包含在溝通的時候你可能都做了很多的自己把自己框架住了嘛我講自己把自己框架住 比如說你看投影片上面寫的幾個產業 比如說我就以"},{"start":225.593,"end":251.405,"text":"4月13這場來講你出席了毛豆產業座談會因為我一句話經濟部所自己辦的座談會他們有紀錄總統辦的座談會經濟部也有紀錄我知道我去的也有紀錄如果這個紀錄可以整理成冊委員都可以拿來參加我知道 我就舉例嘛你現在講說毛豆產業座談會為什麼大家現在在討論台美貿易談判之後的後續對不對我們可能社會大眾更關心的或者是各產業都焦慮的是市場的全面開放"},{"start":252.764,"end":272.841,"text":"那這受害的只有毛豆產業嗎不是 他是其中的一位當天其中的一位這個產業 這個業者還說他很感謝說政府還能夠在這麼比較小的產業毛豆產業還能聽他們的聲音因為我要講的事情就是說你會特別去標註毛豆產業就是因為他是出口嘛他是受到關稅直接衝擊所以你這樣做當然是對的但我要提醒你的範圍不夠大"},{"start":273.922,"end":300.574,"text":"第二你好像談了一圈之後現在要進到國會來報告來討論的時候你的內容都還是圍繞著關稅這跟我們上次總質詢講的不一樣嘛上次總質詢的時候本期就期待不只是關稅包含匯率的台幣的升值產業的外移要有全面性的衝擊影響評估嘛那總是不是委員我們是沒有注意到還是我們誤會了這個今天的主題今天主題就是台美關稅談判的進程方針原則"},{"start":302.154,"end":326.051,"text":"如果在這裡只是這樣子的空間的話本席是覺得比較可惜啦對不起 我們可以把這個座談的紀錄會審之後給委員做參考應該要更詳細啦 因為不只是今天這一本啦其實陸陸續續我們都有跟經濟部索要資料也就是說這段時間大家關心的東西但回來的其實都被框在關稅裡面更有甚者 比如說在這裡面第10頁都還講說32% 現在變成20加N比起4月初的衝擊還減緩5成"},{"start":330.715,"end":348.55,"text":"這個產業界看到這樣子的評論會很心寒因為衝擊絕對不會只有關稅我們更擔心的從頭到尾就是台幣升值產業外移 開放市場你看各家媒體幾乎放在經濟或者是投板的是不是都談關稅也談 市場也談"},{"start":352.333,"end":369.941,"text":"匯率對不對您剛剛講的那一段我早上特別放在第一個發言的時候我說關於進程的方面我先講到現在的進度再講到產業的衝擊跟支持再講到後面的各種這個談判的方針跟原則我是這樣順序下來的所以這個是現在的進度"},{"start":371.621,"end":397.588,"text":"請問台幣升值的問題產業外移的可能性以及另外開放產業的可能性是否納入了全面衝擊影響評估我們打算提供多少資源來解決困難還是說你有不同的時間表請你在這個議事堂跟大家說明一下我想這才是大家都關心的事情嘛這個談判過程沒有涉及關稅稅匯率的談判匯率議題沒有在談判當中我們在四月份的各種"},{"start":398.388,"end":425.302,"text":"低推估中推估高推估也沒有實際把匯率的變化算進去但現在我們知道業界因為匯率的這個變化有受到我們也沒有想像的這個衝擊所以我們在產業支持上面我們也予以增加那照剛剛央行總裁所說的現在的匯率比較趨於緩但是我們認為還是要彌補把過去那一段時間快速升值之後所造成的問題能夠盡量把它淡下來即便是波動他都對產業"},{"start":425.962,"end":443.294,"text":"造成的衝擊 還有不確定性不確定性就暫緩出貨等等對於某一些產業來講它就是立刻性的掉單所以我想匯率問題還是很嚴重的再來我要問開放市場的部分請問我們是要等到全部談判結束開放條件通通公開之後我們才來再一輪的座談嗎請問這樣子來得及嗎 院長"},{"start":445.936,"end":466.991,"text":"那個時候我們會針對問題的核心就是確定之後我們會針對特定產業衝擊受到大的產業我們優先會再跟他做一些了解不過請委員擔心這個敏感性的品項跟產業還有一些剛剛我們一直提到的國人健康跟糧食安全的我們會嚴守國家最大的利益來談"},{"start":467.911,"end":483.01,"text":"很好 這一句話本席覺得非常重聽我想這也是社會大眾都關心這也是本席這一場質詢後半段要深入探討的題目但我在這邊先提醒就是說這個衝擊影響評估以你政府目前提供的報告其實是完全不足以彌平社會的焦慮"},{"start":483.61,"end":512.569,"text":"特別是我們現在整個談判的過程還有太多的資訊沒有揭露連節奏跟時間表也都關在黑箱子裡面那當然產業界就焦慮嘛所以你能夠提供的資料越多越透明你剛剛講中低高那也僅限於關稅對不對開放市場它是不是也有中低高的推估這些相關的資料包含你跟各個產業座談的全部資料是不是應該做一個更詳細的彙整有一個更完整的評估報告其實我們都有在準備但是你也知道這種動態的變化一直在產生"},{"start":513.85,"end":540.923,"text":"4月2號到4月9號8月又到7月31號各種從32從10到20這樣一直變化我們也是隨之在轉變當中那現在我們比較穩定知道說暫時性既有關稅加20%這個暫時性關稅是可以有一段時間那我們希望這個時間能夠越縮越短盡快把它達成一個最終的協議這樣最好那我們就可以針對這個確定的案子跟產業的受傷受損我們全面來展開"},{"start":541.843,"end":566.245,"text":"好 我接下來要問一下有關於談判的一些細節所以請經濟部 應該是經管會對不對 請回我們有請鄭麗君副院長委員號這個 卓院長 鄭副院長這一段時間 大家都對於政府完全拒絕透露任何談判的細節感到非常非常的焦慮你們現在還要堅持"},{"start":568.078,"end":588.685,"text":"所有事情都要保密嗎跟委員報告我們也並沒有說完全沒有透露每一次的實體磋商回來我們也都有說明談判的範疇跟相關的這個議題那的確的確就每一項的實質的內容我們沒有辦法完全的揭露是因為談判還在繼續進行中底定之前依照國際談判的慣例"},{"start":590.658,"end":608.2,"text":"我們暫時還不會對外面說明那現在看到各國在說明相關的談判條件是因為他們達成協議了雙方透過聯合聲明這一點我跟副院長看法不太一樣我舉兩個例子一個是日本的談判日本的談判當然就已經不再純粹只有關稅"},{"start":609.141,"end":631.637,"text":"因為大家都知道關稅只是工具嘛川普的工具 他要用關稅去換別的東西所以這些背後的條件可能衝擊更大這卓院長上次我們都已經討論過了 對不對那以日本來講 他們其實開宗明義就講啊衝擊最大的兩個部門一個叫稻米 一個叫汽車嘛 對不對那我前一陣子日本的訪團還有來我們還有稍微針對這個事交換了一下意見他們對於稻米很有可能受到衝擊其實他們國內很早就知道啦"},{"start":632.117,"end":646.545,"text":"甚至對於從他們的談判代表來講他幾乎就是開牌啊因為那個就是我的核心利益我是寸土不讓的那後來他們談判也很有智慧嘛因為他善用了國內的壓力最後也談就雖然在稻米部門他還是增加了美國的進口對不對你也聽我把話講完"},{"start":648.446,"end":666.858,"text":"你先聽我把話講完他在談的過程中因為就是讓國內的社會他們的在野黨執政黨都知道稻米是重要的部門所以他用了這樣的底氣雖然到最後美國的進口量還是增加了但是他是用調整進口配合的方式也減緩了對國內產業的衝擊嘛這是日本的玩法韓國是牛肉嘛"},{"start":667.358,"end":684.194,"text":"那個也是攤拍完啊 對不對他們的貿易代表呂漢九就跟您的位置是一樣的他是拿著民眾示威的照片去跟美國人講這次我們受不了啊會動搖政權啊會危害長遠的穩定性啊所以他們在肉類方面美國的要求就沒有這麼多了嘛"},{"start":684.894,"end":709.276,"text":"這個東西都是他們都知道他們的社會也知道衝擊最大的部門是哪裡而且隨時保持政府跟民間溝通互相借力量去增加政府的談判籌碼我看日本跟韓國的歷史我就很擔心你們現在什麼都講沒事沒事然後什麼事都拒絕透露都保密協定難道不會給你自己還有談判團隊造成更大的壓力我們都是希望追求一個最好的一個談判的結果"},{"start":709.987,"end":727.911,"text":"所以有關剛剛今天一直重申的糧食安全特定的敏感項目等等等等我想委員給我們空間如果我們過度揭露那是不是最終會影響可能談判的結果所以我們在這邊也請委員能夠體諒我們是為了維繫一個最好的談判的結果"},{"start":728.357,"end":754.739,"text":"這一段時間一篇媒體報導讓這個產業界也好 社會又再次燃起焦慮當然你們已經算是通盤否認嗎說這裡面的都不是真的因為這一篇獨家報導裡面講了其實就談到了大家真的很關心所謂的條件面包含說要投資2500億包含農水產品 汽車附屬產品 甚至藥品還有所謂的檢疫流程等等幾乎是全面開放的一個狀態院長 副院長 這個報導是真的嗎"},{"start":757.448,"end":784.486,"text":"今天因為也回答許多次這個報導是沒有跟經貿辦以及相關部會來直接確認的確很多項目因為美方他會把相關的關稅非關稅貿易障礙項目都在他都要綁在一起談的我問幾個社會上比較焦慮的幾個項目我只問你啦這些項目裡面你能不能守住你當初政府跟人民宣誓的四大原則包含國家利益的維護 產業利益的守護國民健康跟糧食安全的不妥協"},{"start":785.066,"end":802.724,"text":"對不對 這是你們當初設下的四大標準報告委員 這是總統給談判團隊四個最高的原則這就是政府的宣示嘛 對不對好 我現在就問啦比如說解決長期以來有關牛肉跟豬肉所有動植物檢疫措施問題請問 這樣跟我們的守護國民健康有沒有衝突"},{"start":803.561,"end":830.873,"text":"我們在這個題目上會不會讓步美方他每一年都會公佈相關NTE我想這些項目都在他的這個非關稅貿易障礙的報告上面那但是我們就是以這個原則來進行談判所以這部分我們是不會讓步的對嗎我們是以這個原則來進行談判所以我想最終結果達成協議之後我們會對社會來說明所以動之無簡意做之但是在這個過程當中我們當然是要希望在這個原則爭取我們最大利益的空間"},{"start":831.693,"end":855.029,"text":"所以還請委員給我們一些空間因為我當然會給你空間你只要能夠堅持四大原則其他的都是空間不是嗎但我現在問的是我要再問一個問題我跟你講簡易是一個例子另外我要再問如果他真的要求農產品的全面開放還有汽車及附屬品的全部開放化學品 化妝品 藥品的全部開放請問這跟產業利益是否有違我們如何守護"},{"start":856.886,"end":881.799,"text":"報告委員剛剛你有一句話我必須再修正你說我們一直告訴國人都很好都很好我們沒有這樣講過所以我們當初是用高推估4月2號之後我們用高推估就表示說如果出現這個狀況政府要用什麼力道來支撐產業所以我們沒有說談判會沒有事但是我們希望政府的支撐讓產業能夠健全起來今天時間比較有限所以不好意思我沒有辦法讓你回答太久我就問這一篇報導的這些項目"},{"start":883.8,"end":905.892,"text":"哪一些跟這四大項目有違啊那些類別裡面項目都非常多像他剛舉的有一些類別裡面也有本來零關稅的部分也有非零關稅的部分所以它是一個範疇那在範疇裡面我們當然就是要進行整體的討論這整篇報導沒有跟你核實但是這些項目跟你四大原則有抵觸的時候你會不會堅持我就這樣問這個問題就好"},{"start":906.912,"end":918.458,"text":"這要看我們整個談判我們當然要追求降稅嘛我們要一定平衡貿易逆差但是我們也要堅守一些原則這個就是談判的一個目標我們就是要全力達到這樣的一個目標你會努力維持這個國家的利益 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":693,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（16時50分）謝謝主席，卓院長有請。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：院長午安，辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年4月本席跟你總質詢的時候，我們一度認為搞不好那是我們面對面的最後一次總質詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為我面對大罷免的壓力、你也面對改組的壓力，但到了最後，民意選擇讓我們活下來、總統也選擇繼續賦予您閣揆的權力，既然如此，我們就順著上一次總質詢的話頭繼續往下，還是要靜下心來解決國家現在面臨最大的經濟衝擊，我想院長應該不會反對。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的體諒，我們一起努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：好！我們收到了這段時間經濟部、行政院陸陸續續提出了若干所謂的產業衝擊影響評估，但我想內容上有一些不足之處，來跟院長做一下分享。我想先請教院長，從上次4月多那時候關稅開始變成一個重大議題之後，你啟動了所謂的下鄉傾聽之旅，要了解產業界的困境跟狀況，請問這個產業之旅您下鄉了幾次、去了哪些地方、跑了多少縣市？"],["卓院長榮泰：次數非常多、見的產業更多，我記得有一次現場就超過10個以上的公協會跟產業代表。關於總統跟我，有的是他單獨、有的是我單獨、有的是我們一起，我們當時算起來超過20場，而經濟部自己做的應該比這個更多。"],["牛委員煦庭：經濟部補充一下。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們大概有數十場，有些是在我們經濟部裡面，我們邀請產業公會來座談……"],["牛委員煦庭：來開會，有些是你們下鄉？"],["何次長晉滄：有些是我們到公會裡面跟產業一起來座談。"],["牛委員煦庭：全國各縣市都去過了吧，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有各縣市都去過，有的是請到裡面……"],["牛委員煦庭：有些是到經濟部開會？"],["卓院長榮泰：或是到官邸裡面去談。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我要問關鍵的問題，你下了這麼多鄉、跑了這麼多縣市、開了這麼多次會議，請問產業界提出來的疑慮只有關稅嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是涵蓋在關稅周圍的一些問題，不同的產業有不同的狀況，但我剛剛說過，我聽下來的大多數，幾乎有一半是對金融支持的強化是普遍性的要求。"],["牛委員煦庭：金融支持的強化，就是希望紓困、貸款等等？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，貸款能夠更簡化、額度能夠更高、速度能夠更快。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們從他提出的問題來講就好，真的只有關稅的問題嗎？有沒有人跟你提臺幣升值造成的衝擊，有沒有產業提到外移、供應鏈斷鏈的問題，這些問題有沒有在這些會議裡面討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該有提到勞工不足的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：勞工不足是本來就有，產業五缺是從好幾朝以前到現在一直都存在的問題，我要問的是，你這一連串下鄉都是在問臺美這一波貿易談判造成的衝擊，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：除了關稅以外，他們有沒有提其他的面向？"],["卓院長榮泰：多多少少都有……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該都有提到，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就擔心了，為什麼呢？因為我看你今天這一本，今天你來國會專案報告，我們都很高興，總算大家要討論國政，但是從你今天的這一本裡面，我還是沒有看到除了關稅以外的其他衝擊部分，對不對？你這一本幾乎都還是在寫關稅衝擊呀。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為名稱就是關稅談判的進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業……"],["牛委員煦庭：我當然了解，這就是本席要提醒你的地方，政府在下鄉、包含在溝通的時候，你可能都做了很多的……自己把自己框限住了，關於我講的自己把自己框限住，比如說投影片上面寫的幾個產業，我就以4月13日這一場來講，你出席了毛豆產業座談會……"],["卓院長榮泰：我講一句話，經濟部自己辦的座談會他們有紀錄、總統辦的座談會經濟部也有紀錄、我去的也有紀錄，如果這個紀錄可以整理成冊，委員都可以拿來參考。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道，我就舉例，你現在講說毛豆產業座談會，為什麼只……大家現在在討論臺美貿易談判之後的後續，對不對？可能社會大眾更關心的或者是各產業都焦慮的是市場全面開放，那受害的只有毛豆產業嗎？沒有。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，他是當天其中的一位，這個業者還說，他很感謝政府還能針對比較小的產業、毛豆產業聽他們的聲音。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要講的是，你會特別去標註毛豆產業，因為它是出口、它受到關稅直接衝擊，所以你這樣做當然是對的，但我要提醒你的是範圍不夠大。第二，你談了一圈之後，現在要進到國會來報告、來討論的時候，你的內容都還是圍繞著關稅，這跟我們上次總質詢講的不一樣，上次總質詢的時候本席就期待不只是關稅，包含針對臺幣匯率的升值、產業的外移要有全面性的衝擊影響評估。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們是不是沒有注意到還是我們誤會了今天的主題？今天主題就是臺美關稅談判的進程、方針、原則跟產業的衝擊……"],["牛委員煦庭：你如果在這裡只是這樣子框限的話，本席是覺得比較可惜啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，我們可以把這個座談的紀錄彙整之後，給委員做參考，這是公開的……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該要更詳細啦！不只是今天這一本，其實我們陸陸續續都有跟經濟部索要資料，也就是這一段時間大家關心的東西，但回來的其實都被框在關稅裡面，更有甚者，比如在這裡面第10頁還講說32%應該變成20%加N，比起4月初的衝擊還減緩五成，產業界看到這樣子的評論會很心寒啦！因為衝擊絕對不會只有關稅嘛？我們更擔心的從頭到尾就是臺幣升值、產業外移、開放市場嘛？你看，各家媒體幾乎放在經濟或者是頭版，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：是不是都談關稅，也談市場，也談匯率，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：您剛剛講的那一段，我早上特別放在第一個發言的時候。關於進程方面，我先講到現在的進度，再講到產業的衝擊跟支持，再講到後面各種談判的方針跟原則，我是以這樣的順序講下來的，所以這個是現在的進度。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問臺幣升值的問題、產業外移的可能性以及另外開放產業的可能性，是否納入了全面衝擊影響評估？我們打算提供多少資源來解決困難？還是你有不同的時間表？請你在這個議事堂跟大家說明一下，我想這才是大家都關心的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，這個談判過程沒有涉及匯率的談判，匯率議題沒有在談判當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在4月份的各種低推估、中推估、高推估中，也沒有實際把匯率的變化算進去，但現在我們知道業界因為匯率的變化，有受到我們沒有想像到的衝擊，所以在產業支持上面，我們也予以增加，照剛剛央行總裁所說的，現在的匯率比較趨緩，但是我們認為還是要彌補，把過去那一段時間快速升值之後所造成的問題，能夠儘量把它淡下來。"],["牛委員煦庭：即便是波動，它都對產業造成了衝擊還有不確定性。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：不確定性就暫緩出貨等等，對於某一些產業來講，它就是立刻性的掉單，所以我想匯率問題還是很嚴重的。","再來，我要問開放市場的部分，請問我們是要等到全部談判結束、開放條件統統公開之後，我們才來再一輪的座談嗎？請問這樣子來得及嗎？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：那個時候我們會針對問題的核心，就是確定之後，我們會針對特定產業、對受到衝擊大的產業，我們會優先再跟它做一些了解，不過請委員放心，敏感性的品項跟產業，還有一些剛剛我們一直提到的，即國人健康跟糧食安全的，我們會嚴守國家最大的利益來談。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好！這一句話本席覺得非常中聽，我想這也是社會大眾都關心，這也是本席這一場質詢後半段要深入探討的題目。但我在這邊先提醒，就是這個衝擊影響評估，以你政府目前提供的報告，其實是完全不足以弭平社會的焦慮，特別是我們現在整個談判的過程還有太多的資訊沒有揭露，連節奏跟時間表也都關在黑箱子裡面，當然產業界就焦慮，所以你能夠提供的資料越多、越透明，你剛剛講中、低、高，那也僅限於關稅，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：開放市場是不是也有中、低、高的推估？這些相關的資料，包含你跟各產業座談的全部資料，是不是應該做一個更詳細的彙整，有一個更完整的評估報告？"],["卓院長榮泰：其實我們都有在準備，但是你也知道，這種動態的變化一直在產生，從4月2號到4月9號，又到7月31號，各種從32從10到20這樣一直變化，我們也是隨之在轉變當中，現在我們比較穩定知道既有關稅加20%這個暫時性關稅是可以有一段時間，我們希望這個時間能夠越縮越短，儘快達成一個最終的協議，這樣最好，我們就可以針對這個確定的案子跟產業受損的狀況全面展開。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我接下來問一下有關於談判的一些細節，經濟部、金管會請回，我們有請鄭麗君副院長。"],["鄭副院長麗君：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：卓院長、鄭副院長，這一段時間大家對於政府完全拒絕透露任何談判的細節，都感到非常、非常的焦慮，你們現在還要堅持所有事情都要保密嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請理解我們的無奈。"],["鄭副院長麗君：跟委員報告，我們也並沒有完全沒有透露，每一次的實體磋商回來，我們也都有說明談判的範疇跟相關的議題，的確就每一項的實質內容，我們沒有辦法完全的揭露，是因為談判還在繼續進行中，底定之前，依照國際談判的慣例，我們暫時還不會對外面說明，現在看到各國有在說明相關的談判條件，是因為他們達成協議了，雙方透過聯合聲明或是文件來說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一點我跟副院長的看法不太一樣，我舉兩個例子，一個是日本的談判，日本的談判當然就已經不再純粹只有關稅，因為大家都知道關稅只是川普的工具，他要用關稅去換別的東西，所以這些背後的條件可能衝擊更大，這部分卓院長上次我們都已經討論過了，對不對？以日本來講，他們其實開宗明義就講，衝擊最大的兩個部門，一個是稻米、一個是汽車。前一陣子日本的訪團有來，我們還有稍微針對這個事交換了一下意見，他們對於稻米很有可能受到衝擊，其實他們國內很早就知道了，甚至從他們的談判代表來講，他幾乎就是開牌啊！因為那個就是他的核心利益，是寸土不讓的。後來他們談判也很有智慧，因為他善用了國內的壓力，最後雖然在稻米部門他還是增加了美國的進口，對不對？"],["鄭副院長麗君：所以稻米……"],["牛委員煦庭：你先聽我把話講完。"],["鄭副院長麗君：他們最後做了……"],["牛委員煦庭：你先聽我把話講完。他在談的過程中，因為就是讓國內的社會、他們的在野黨、執政黨都知道稻米是重要的部門，所以他用了這樣的底氣，雖然到最後美國的進口量還是增加了，但他是用調整進口配額的方式，也減緩了對國內產業的衝擊，這是日本的玩法。韓國是牛肉，那個也是攤牌玩啊，對不對？他們的貿易代表呂漢久，就跟您的位置是一樣的，他是拿著民眾示威的照片去跟美國人講這事他們受不了，會動搖政權、會危害長遠的穩定性，所以他們在肉類方面，美國的要求就沒有這麼多了。這個東西都是他們都知道，他們的社會也知道，衝擊最大的部門是哪裡，而且隨時保持政府跟民間溝通，互相借力量去增加政府的談判籌碼。","我看日本跟韓國的例子，我就很擔心嘛！你們現在什麼都講沒事、沒事，然後什麼事都拒絕透露、都保密協定，難道不會給你自己還有談判團隊造成更大的壓力？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們都是希望追求一個最好的談判結果，所以有關今天一直重申的糧食安全、特定的敏感項目等等，我想委員給我們空間，如果我們過度揭露，那是不是最終會影響可能談判的結果？所以我們在這邊也請委員能夠體諒我們是為了維繫一個最好的談判結果。"],["牛委員煦庭：這段時間一篇媒體報導讓產業界及社會又再次燃起了焦慮，當然你們已經算是通盤否認，說這裡面都不是真的，因為這一篇獨家報導裡面其實就談到了大家真的很關心的條件面，包含要投資2,500億，包含農水產品、汽車、附屬產品，甚至藥品及所謂的檢疫流程等等，幾乎是全面開放的一個狀態。院長、副院長，這個報導是真的嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：今天也回答許多次，這個報導是沒有跟經貿辦及相關部會來確認……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有確認過，對不對？"],["鄭副院長麗君：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["鄭副院長麗君：的確很多項目，因為美方會把相關的關稅、非關稅貿易障礙項目都在……"],["牛委員煦庭：他都要綁在一起談的……"],["鄭副院長麗君：放在裡面談……"],["牛委員煦庭：我問社會上比較焦慮的幾個項目，我只問你，這些項目裡面，你能不能守住當初政府跟人民宣示的四大原則？包含國家利益的維護、產業利益的守護、國民健康跟糧食安全的不妥協，對不對？這是你們當初設下的四大標準。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這是總統給談判團隊四個最高的原則……"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，這就是政府的宣示嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個打不了折的。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我現在就問，解決長期以來有關牛肉跟豬肉所有動植物檢疫措施問題，請問這樣跟我們的守護國民健康有沒有衝突？我們在這個題目上會不會讓步？"],["鄭副院長麗君：美方每一年都會公布相關NTE，我想這些項目都在他們非關稅貿易障礙的報告上面，但我們就是以這個原則來進行談判。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這部分我們是不會讓步的，對嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們是以這個原則來進行談判，我想最終結果達成協議之後，我們會對社會來說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以動植物檢疫措施……"],["鄭副院長麗君：在這個過程當中，我們當然希望在這個原則爭取我們最大利益的空間，所以還請委員給我們一些空間，因為我們如果過度的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我當然會給你空間，你只要能夠堅持四大原則，其他的都是空間，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我可以……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在要問的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟你說明，美國……"],["牛委員煦庭：我要再問一個問題，我剛剛講檢疫是一個例子，另外我要再問，如果他真的要求農產品的全面開放，還有汽車及附屬品的全部開放，化學品、化妝品、藥品的全部開放，請問這跟產業利益是否有違？我們如何守護？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛你有一句話我必須再修正，你說我們一直告訴國人都很好、都很好，我們沒有這樣講過……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，本席可以接受。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們當初是用高推估，4月2號之後我們用高推估，就表示如果出現這個狀況，政府要用什麼力道來支撐產業，所以我們沒有說談判會沒有事，但是我們希望政府的支撐讓產業能夠健全起來。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天時間比較有限，所以不好意思，我沒有辦法讓你回答太久，我就問這一篇報導的這些項目，哪一些跟這四大項目有違？"],["鄭副院長麗君：其實那些類別裡面的項目都非常多，像剛剛舉的有一些類別裡面也有本來零關稅的部分，也有非零關稅的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，本席看的這些……"],["鄭副院長麗君：所以它是一個範疇……"],["牛委員煦庭：我就擔心……"],["鄭副院長麗君：在範疇裡面，我們當然就是要進行整體的討論以及每一項的討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：這整篇報導沒有跟你覈實，但是當這些項目跟你四大原則有牴觸的時候，你會不會堅持？我問這個問題就好。"],["鄭副院長麗君：這要看我們整個談判，我們當然要追求降稅，我們一定要平衡貿易逆差，但是我們也要堅守一些原則，這個是談判的目標，我們就是要全力達到這樣的目標。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後，因為本席時間不多了，沒辦法細談，但我希望你這四大原則，各個項目都要堅持，好不好？好，辛苦了，謝謝！"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們努力！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會努力維持國家的利益，謝謝委員！"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛委員，也謝謝卓院長還有鄭副院長。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。","作以下之決定：一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復。二、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，8月26日（星期二）上午9時繼續開會，進行行政院院長等列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案」編製經過並備質詢，現在休息。","休息（17時6分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163613","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163613","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc6a6541a8c0e8b2ebc0ac07f6ba1e1b0996637cd1f4f7f64504c117b4160d12fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"16:34:09 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江副院長各位同仁 新聞節的朋友 楊卿瑩發言首先邀請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":24.248,"end":39.212,"text":"我今天聽你一直強調說有跟這個在野溝通那麼我要請問一下在整個關稅的談判跟議題上面行政院有跟在野黨的黨團來溝通嗎溝通了什麼事請說說明"},{"start":40.706,"end":67.169,"text":"我們有一次曾經邀請黨團的幹部去到行政院就這個內容告訴大家當時我們能夠向黨團說明的部分但是我們也希望黨團在聽取說明之後有些很重相關的內容不宜對外宣布所以我們有這個過程但是內容還是在國際談判慣例當中我們還要謹守分際今天算是一個正式公開的說明"},{"start":67.589,"end":77.587,"text":"但也有所保留這很抱歉 容許我們一定要做有所保留等到協議達成的時候我們一定向國人跟國會來做說明也一定送請國會來審議"},{"start":79.505,"end":102.22,"text":"好但是到目前為止本席跟人民我們似乎感感受不到行政院有想溝通跟介入訊息在可以介入的範圍內因為大家幾乎都是瞎子摸象到現在你產業的座談會有開一場一場的座談媒體報導也一直在跟隨到底我們的方向"},{"start":103.081,"end":123.58,"text":"就是看不到行政院對於我們整體性的一個關稅它能夠維持多久我們的農產品會不會全面的開放還是如此如何美豬美牛會不會鬆綁對我們產業整個的衝擊有多大這一些的方向我們看不到"},{"start":124.08,"end":146.753,"text":"因為我們看到日韓在談判的時候他們可以揭露的時候他們就給國人報告而且反觀我們呢到底我們的疊加關稅到底是怎麼回事呢總統在八月份的記者會都還沒有公開說明所以這次我論點是認為內部的溝通他是不及格的"},{"start":147.333,"end":161.94,"text":"那所以本席要再請教在上午您有說有跟執政黨的黨團溝通那請問在四月份我們關稅風暴到現在四月份就等於是四個月後才到立法院來報告"},{"start":163.061,"end":182.684,"text":"我要請問 你透過你們執政黨 民進黨黨團到底溝通了什麼因為我們看到在8月10號的時候在立法院協商的時候整個執政黨的幹部都還在反對行政院到國會來報告"},{"start":184.145,"end":213.232,"text":"他們說要等到整體的結束之後才能夠來國會來報告而且還嗆說如果有透露那談判不順的時候那談判不好的時候要嗆民 嗆在野黨所以你們要負責所以本席要請教本席要請教也就是在整個談判性的一個過程當中我們看到"},{"start":215.253,"end":236.72,"text":"如果說談判不順是要在野黨來負責嗎那行政部門不用負責嗎我請首先我要謝謝委員參加過好幾場的產業座談會你也看得出來我們座談會當中那種互動的模式跟我們聽取業者請針對本席的提問因為你說透過你們執政黨"},{"start":239.881,"end":259.287,"text":"黨團來做溝通8月4號還在嗆還說破壞進行中的談判為談判製造更多不可控的因素早上那段話是說有委員說我們這一年當中跟在野黨團互動幾次我說有兩次以上是到行政院來"},{"start":259.907,"end":275.34,"text":"平常是透過黨團來跟朝野黨團所以我告訴你因為你四個月後才來報告那就是說因為你有請執政黨的黨團來做溝通那我也坦白告訴你8月4號還嗆在野黨甚至說談判不順你在野黨必須要負責那我請問卓院長談判不管如何怎樣不順也好 順也好"},{"start":285.248,"end":286.791,"text":"那就成了你的執政黨黨團這麼樣的嗆你認為是在野黨要負責嗎還是你執政黨的"},{"start":294.062,"end":318.547,"text":"政府不用負責既然叫執政黨負起政治責任更多的責任都是應該的我們繼續討論我非常的樂見您今天到立法院來做報告我們在台中的時候你也告訴本席一句話只要國會來邀請你都非常樂意立即來報告所以也就是"},{"start":319.207,"end":337.797,"text":"原本的執政黨黨團一再的抹黑在野黨這是不對的這是不對的在此時我們必須要一起來努力我跟執政黨黨團之間並沒有做這樣的要求說延緩來報告我們都期待儘快依照大約你沒有這樣請他們延緩他們這樣子8月4號這個錄影錄音這樣子去嗆"},{"start":344.201,"end":368.009,"text":"你應該要回去好好的跟他們溝通你必須要跟他們好好的溝通所以你要必須跟你的執政黨的黨團去溝通那麼過去駐美代表沈旅雄先生他講了一句非常有名的這個名言他說什麼都問美國人這就不是"},{"start":369.269,"end":391.42,"text":"外交官所以相對本事要告訴你一句話什麼要求你都接受這也不叫談判代表所以我認為我們國會的監督跟人民的聲音可以作為你在談判的一個後盾你認為政府會好好的重視跟善用國會的監督跟人民的這個聲音嗎會 我們會聽取業界當然我們也會重視國會給我們任何的建議"},{"start":397.096,"end":426.416,"text":"我想這個都會在談判當中我們可以轉化成一種談判內容甚至一個對我們的鞭策跟助力好 謝謝卓議員長你跟本席的論點是一樣也就是國會的監督跟人民的聲音是作為談判非常重要的後盾此時此刻我們必須要好好的去團結應對我們這個關稅所以接下來本席要請教對美的加大投資美方的期待到底是什麼"},{"start":427.977,"end":441.708,"text":"日本需要請問剛剛我們說了照單全收他就不是談判我要謝謝正副院長帶著團隊到美國去但正副院長告訴我們美國的財長說他可能暫時性的會到10月"},{"start":442.745,"end":461.006,"text":"同時他們每一次的見面都會擴大這個期待那到底請教目前談判到現在他們還有沒有擴大期待請做說明先回應剛剛委員所提我在第一輪實體磋商的時候就跟美方說我國的法律有國會保留條款"},{"start":461.607,"end":475.874,"text":"我把相關的條約締結法的法條都給了對方所以很清楚的這個談判的結果的協議最後是要送交大院來審議我想我們有非常清楚表達剛剛回應委員的第一個問題那第二是這個我們談判"},{"start":478.715,"end":494.442,"text":"這個當然希望是要降關稅那降關稅我方也的確希望平衡貿易逆差來說服美方降關稅但是我們也有所原則我們在這個國民健康糧食安全產業利益的原則之上來跟美方來進行磋商"},{"start":495.382,"end":524.06,"text":"那至於委員所垂詢的有關後續的談判過程當中涉及供應鏈的部分232條款跟投資的部分目前還在談判中所以目前還在談判中針對本席的問題提問目前因為您說每一次見面都會有擴大的期待那目前在談判的當中我們還是進行我剛剛所謂的每一次見面都會擴大期待指的是說隨著因為過去幾個月談判美國是跟各國在談判的"},{"start":524.98,"end":545.893,"text":"請針對本席的評論那是不是到目前為止還有擴大擴大的期待有沒有目前我們正在磋商的就是供應鏈的合作跟爭取232的優惠因為我們也想要了解美方232關稅的走向謝謝曾副院長你的回答讓我們清楚知道還是有"},{"start":546.853,"end":562.865,"text":"還是有所以本市要請教市場開放跟對美的開放投資那這個是國人非常非常的關心因為就陳柏霖剛才所說的投資是不能無端的一個浪費尤其在我們食安方面我們更要謹慎絕對不能退讓這個是我們非常重要而且針對於我們條約締結法"},{"start":568.849,"end":583.245,"text":"第三條第六條第七條第八條的一個規定那麼必須要送到國會跟國會相關要送到國會剛剛你也應許會送到國會就誠如總統所說的跟這個國會有相關的也一定會"},{"start":584.826,"end":608.713,"text":"國會來做審議全民國會的審議跟全民的審議這是我們有第一次就跟美方來表明我國有國會保留相關的法律規範所以本事要告訴你我們都知道委員我補一句話如果有不對再請副院長能夠來修正就是雙方技術性的磋商我們就關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易的便捷化還有數位經濟還有產業的供應鏈的韌性"},{"start":613.374,"end":631.945,"text":"還有經濟安全這幾個大項都是固定的但內容因為美國隨著跟其他各國的談判有一些動態的變化所以他一直在調整這些動態的變化我想我這樣的陳述第一線應該也是謝謝你補充的陳述那本是要提醒政府因為我們看到日本 韓國"},{"start":634.653,"end":655.748,"text":"歐盟他們怎麼做呢他們要三年購買7500億的能源他們要投資美國6000億的美元日本5500億投資韓國3500億而且要加能源1000億4500億但是我們看到我們跟他的人口跟GDP日本他們的GDP4.7兆"},{"start":657.589,"end":673.432,"text":"他們的人口1.2億大於我們的五倍韓國他們呢1.7兆他們人口5100億大於我們的兩倍如果我方也要要求被要求也是數千億你認為對台灣是公平的嗎"},{"start":674.033,"end":686.108,"text":"任何有利於我方談判的論述我們都會加以運用那我早上有回答其實我們期待的是一個雙方互利互補雙贏的供應鏈合作我們一再的強調我方供應鏈的價值"},{"start":688.971,"end":697.862,"text":"非常重要因為我們的產業跟我們的民生非常重要所以本下要請教台積電的1650億有包括在你預計要投資美國的數目裡頭嗎報告委員台積電宣布當時1000億的投資其實在我們談判之前"},{"start":708.054,"end":731.395,"text":"這到底這些算不算他目前1650億是應許了甚至還要加碼所以台積電的投資會不會算在你談判的投資額裡頭會不會目前我們民間公司的投資規劃是民間公司他們的決策我們現在談判還在進行當中我們談判還在進行當中我想我現在這邊任何可能大家臆測的數字"},{"start":732.876,"end":747.16,"text":"我們不希望來增加成為談判桌上的變數所以請容許委員讓我們有一定的空間我們的產業跟人民的民生非常的重要所以最後我們說現在政府談判到總結會議我們還要這個總結會議這個時間到底會撐多久"},{"start":752.822,"end":768.22,"text":"那麼同時在總結會議的時候我們的產業我們的疊加關稅到底可以撐多久還是成如財長所說的暫時性的還要等到10月到底我們一個月會損害多少兩個月會損害多少我們這產業等不及"},{"start":769.381,"end":781.517,"text":"我要給卓肥報告 換我給你報告因為很緊張我們的工具機 手工具機這一次談判最嚴重的就是我們中部地區包括自行車業所有的產業首當其衝企業衝擊了連帶我們整個"},{"start":786.643,"end":809.685,"text":"勞工的公司全部影響到這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題到底我們對這些產業我們要怎麼樣協助所以你們有沒有評估你現在報告的都是目前的形態但是我們的廠家已經很多到期的廠房不敢租到期的倉庫也不敢租我也不敢接單我不知道未來是怎麼樣"},{"start":810.626,"end":835.365,"text":"所以這樣的樣態讓人民非常的辛苦有三個塊第一個 談判趕快定案下來跟美國的談判定案下來第一個塊我們送交大院的任性條例的修正草案能夠盡快審議把它定下來第三個塊修正之後行政院用最快的速度編特別預算通過之後就能夠廣泛的對"},{"start":839.366,"end":861.665,"text":"你這麼回答我們針對關稅的衝擊產業勞工都雙雙的重擊我們看到台灣關稅高於日韓台灣的產業競爭力跟毛利都雙數物價指數高毛利少所以等於他的競爭力就少了在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教"},{"start":862.466,"end":877.821,"text":"很多的像我們這個工具機他說我不敢去參展了所以本期在經濟委員會也在強調我們必須要協助我們的產業趕快去參展今年九月的漢諾威的工具機展我想經濟部這邊會可以全力的支持"},{"start":878.642,"end":895.923,"text":"一定要大力的支持本期在經濟委員會跟卓魁也一致的吶喊我們9月份探討委員會長已經跟工具機產業工會已經在討論要怎麼樣去成立一個台灣館所以我想這個部分我們是帶著產業一起到這個德國那邊去做"},{"start":896.523,"end":913.022,"text":"因為要拿到訂單他們非常的勇敢所以政府我第一時間就吶喊一定要好好協助我們產業到全世界各國去參展這非常非常的重要所以一定要落實到 卓葵會落實到嗎都在我們的這個支持方案裡面"},{"start":915.422,"end":929.603,"text":"產業的聯合參展幫他開拓多元的市場以及用台灣SELECT 台灣的品牌來推動台灣的優質產品所以本期再一句話針對我們的產業民生一定要顧好好 我們一起來合作 謝謝好 謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（16時34分）謝謝院會主席江副院長。各位同仁、新聞界的朋友，楊瓊瓔發言，首先邀請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長你好。我今天聽你一直強調有跟在野溝通，我要請問一下在整個關稅談判跟議題上面，行政院有跟在野黨的黨團來溝通嗎？溝通了什麼事？請做說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有一次曾經邀請黨團幹部到行政院，就這個內容告訴他當時我們能夠向黨團說明的部分，但是我們也希望黨團在聽取說明之後，有些相關的內容不宜對外宣布，所以我們有這個過程，但是內容還是在國際談判慣例當中，我們還要謹守分際，今天算是一個正式公開的說明，但也有所保留，這很抱歉，容許我們一定要有所保留，等到協議達成的時候，我們一定向國人跟國會來做說明，也一定送請國會來審議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，但是到目前為止，本席跟人民似乎感受不到行政院有想溝通跟揭露訊息，在可以揭露的範圍內，因為大家幾乎都是瞎子摸象，到現在，你產業的座談會有開，一場一場的座談，媒體報導也一直在跟追，到底我們的方向……就是看不到行政院對於整體性的關稅，能夠維持多久？我們的農產品會不會全面開放？還是如此、如何？美豬、美牛會不會鬆綁？對我們產業整個的衝擊有多大？這一些的方向我們看不到，因為我們看到日韓在談判的時候，他們可以揭露的時候，他們就給國人報告，而且反觀我們，到底我們的疊加關稅是怎麼回事呢？總統在8月份的記者會都還沒有公開說明，所以這次我的論點是認為內部的溝通是不及格的。所以本席要再請教，在上午你說有跟執政黨的黨團溝通，請問從4月份關稅風暴到現在，4月份就等於是4個月後才到立法院來報告，我要請問，你透過你們執政的民進黨黨團到底溝通了什麼？因為我們看到8月4號在立法院協商的時候，整個執政黨的幹部都還在反對行政院到國會來報告，他們說要等到整體結束之後才能夠來國會報告，而且還嗆說如果有透露，那談判不順的時候、談判不好的時候，嗆在野黨說你們要負責。所以本席要請教，在整個談判的過程當中，我們看到如果談判不順，是要在野黨來負責嗎？那行政部門不用負責嗎？我請卓院長來說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：首先我要謝謝委員參加過好幾場的產業座談會，你也看得出來我們的座談會當中，那種互動的模式跟我們聽取業者……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，因為你說透過你們執政黨的黨團來做溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：早上……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：8月4號還在嗆，還說破壞進行中的談判，為談判製造更多不可控的因素，可以如此嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，早上的那段話是有委員說我們這一年當中跟在野黨團互動幾次，我說有2次以上是到行政院來，平常是透過朝野黨團，不是說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我告訴你，因為你4個月後才來報告，就是說因為你有請執政黨的黨團來做溝通……"],["卓院長榮泰：我有請在野黨……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我也坦白告訴你，8月4號還嗆在野黨……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有請朝野黨團……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：甚至說談判不順，你在野黨必須要負責……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有請……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那我請問卓院長，談判不管如何怎樣，不順也好、順也好，那就成了……執政黨黨團這麼嗆，你認為是在野黨要負責嗎？還是你執政黨的政府不用負責？請做說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：既然叫執政黨，負起政治責任、更多的責任都是應該的，我們就朝這個方向……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就你一句「更多」，我們繼續討論。我非常樂見您今天到立法院來做報告，我們在臺中的時候，你也告訴本席一句話，只要國會邀請，你都非常樂意立即來報告，所以也就是原本的執政黨黨團一再地抹黑在野黨，這是不對的，此時我們必須要一起來努力。接下來本席要告訴你的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟執政黨黨團之間並沒有做這樣的要求說延緩來報告，我們都期待儘快依照大院排定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有請他們延緩，他們這樣子8月4號，這有錄影、錄音，這樣子嗆，你應該要回去好好地跟他們溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：我也跟韓院長表示過……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你必須要跟他們好好地溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都願意配合大會的議程安排，隨時準備好來報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你必須要跟你的執政黨黨團溝通。","過去駐美代表沈呂巡先生講了一句非常有名的名言，他說：「什麼都問美國人，這就不是外交官」。所以相對本席要告訴你一句話「什麼要求你都接受，這也不叫談判代表」，所以我認為國會的監督及人民的聲音可以作為你們在談判的後盾，你認為政府會好好的重視與善用國會的監督及人民的聲音嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：會，我們會聽取業界，當然我們也會重視國會給我們任何的建議，我想這個都會在談判當中，我們可以轉化成一種談判內容，甚至是一個對我們的鞭策與助力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝卓院長。你跟本席的論點一樣，也就是國會的監督跟人民的聲音是作為談判非常重要的後盾……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我這邊跟委員補充……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：此時此刻我們必須要好好地團結來應對關稅。"],["鄭副院長麗君：跟委員補充，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以接下來本席要請教對美的加大投資，美方的期待到底是什麼？本席要請問，剛剛我們說照單全收就不是談判，我要謝謝鄭副院長帶著團隊到美國，但鄭副院長告訴我們，美國的財長說暫時性的關稅可能會到10月，同時他們每一次的見面都會擴大期待，請教談判到現在到底他們還有沒有擴大期待，請做說明。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我先回應剛剛委員所提，我在第一輪實體磋商的時候就跟美方說，我國的法律有國會保留條款，我把相關的條約、締結法的法條都給了對方，所以很清楚的，這個談判結果的協議最後是要送交大院來審議……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，因為我們……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想我也非常清楚表達，這是回應剛剛委員的第一個問題。第二，我們談判當然希望是要降關稅，那降關稅，我方也的確希望平衡貿易逆差來說服美方降關稅，但是我們也有所原則，我們在國民健康、糧食安全、產業利益的原則之上來與美方進行磋商。至於委員所垂詢的，有關後續的談判過程當中涉及供應鏈的部分、232條款跟投資的部分，目前還在談判中，所以這個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以目前還在談判中，針對本席的問題提問，因為您說每一次見面都會擴大期待，那目前在談判當中，我們還是進行式當中……"],["鄭副院長麗君：我剛剛所謂的每一次見面都會擴大期待指的是，隨著……因為過去幾個月，美國是跟各國在談判的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，是不是到目前為止還有擴大的期待？有沒有？"],["鄭副院長麗君：目前我們正在磋商的就是供應鏈的合作跟爭取232條款的優惠，因為我們也想要了解美方232關稅的走向，以及要爭取對等的下修……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝鄭副院長，你的回答讓我們清楚知道還是有、還是有……"],["鄭副院長麗君：還在持續磋商中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教市場開放跟對美的開放投資，這個國人非常非常的關心，因為就誠如您剛才所說的，投資是不能無端的讓利，尤其在食安方面，我們更要謹慎，絕對不能退讓，這個對我們非常重要，而且針對我們條約締結法第三條、第六條、第七條、第八條的規定，與國會相關必須要送到國會，剛剛你也應許會送到國會。就誠如總統所說的，與國會有相關的也一定會到國會來做審議……"],["鄭副院長麗君：對，關稅也會送到國會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國會的審議跟全民的審議……"],["鄭副院長麗君：當然，一定的，這是我們第一次就跟美方表明我國有國會保留相關的法律規範，我們一定依法來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要告訴你，我們都知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我補一句話，如果有不對，再請副院長能夠來修正。就是雙方技術性的磋商，我們就關稅、非關稅貿易障礙、貿易的便捷化、數位經濟、產業供應鏈的韌性，還有經濟安全等，這幾個大項都是固定的，但內容因為美國隨著跟其他各國的談判有一些動態的變化……"],["鄭副院長麗君：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以它一直在調整這些動態的變化，我想我這樣的陳述，第一線應該也是……"],["鄭副院長麗君：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝你補充的陳述。本席要提醒政府，因為我們看到日本、韓國、歐盟，歐盟他們怎麼做呢？他們要3年購買7,500億的能源，他們要投資美國6,000美元，日本投資5,500億，韓國3,500億，而且還加能源1,000億，共4,500億。但是我們看到，我們跟他們的人口及GDP比較起來，日本的GDP是4.7兆，人口是1.2億，大於我們5倍；韓國的GDP是1.7兆，人口是5,100萬，大於我們2倍，如果我方也被要求數千億，你認為對臺灣是公平的嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：任何有利於我方談判的論述，我們都會加以運用，我早上有回答，其實我們期待的是一個雙方互利互補、雙贏的供應鏈合作，我們也一再強調……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，雙方互利。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我方供應鏈的價值，臺美合作未來在戰略上……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常重要，因為我們的產業跟我們的民生非常重要。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，台積電的1,650億有包括在你預計要投資美國的數目裡面嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：報告委員，台積電當時宣布1,000億的投資其實是在我們談判之前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以到底這些算不算？目前1,650億它是應許了，甚至還要加碼，所以台積電的投資會不會算在你談判的投資額裡頭，會不會？"],["鄭副院長麗君：民間公司的投資規劃是民間公司他們的決策，我們現在談判還在進行當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有？我請教。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們談判還在進行當中，我想現在對於任何大家臆測的數字，我們都不希望變成增加談判桌上的變數，所以請容許委員讓我們有一定的談判空間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，本席提醒我們的產業跟人民的民生非常重要。","最後，我們說現在政府談判到總結會議，這個時間到底會撐多久？同時，在總結會議的時候，我們的產業、我們的疊加關稅到底可以撐多久？還是誠如財長所說的，這是暫時性的，還要等到10月，到底我們一個月會損害多少、兩個月會損害多少？我們的產業等不及耶！我要跟卓揆報告，換我跟你報告，因為很緊張，我們的工具機、手工具，受到這次談判影響最嚴重的就是我們中部地區，包括自行車業，所有的產業首當其衝，企業受衝擊了，連帶我們整個勞工的工時全部受到影響，這是非常嚴肅的議題，到底我們對這些產業要怎麼樣協助，所以你們有沒有評估？你現在報告的都是目前的型態，但是已經有很多廠家是到期的廠房不敢租，到期的倉庫也不敢租，也不敢接單，因為不知道未來是怎麼樣，所以這樣的樣態讓人民非常地辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們有三個「快」，第一個快，跟美國的談判趕快定案下來；第二個快，我們送交大院的韌性條例的修正草案能夠儘快審議，把它定下來；第三個快，修正之後，行政院要用最快的速度編特別預算，通過之後，就能夠廣泛地對產業來做支持，所以一定要快快快、三個快。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：卓揆，你這麼回答，我們針對關稅的衝擊，產業、勞工都雙雙受到重擊，我們看到臺灣關稅高於日韓，臺灣的產業競爭力跟毛利都雙輸，物價指數高、毛利少，所以等於它的競爭力就少了。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，像我們的工具機，他們說我不敢去參展了，所以本席在經濟委員會也一再強調，我們必須要協助我們的產業趕快去參展。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對，今年9月的漢諾威工具機展，我想經濟部這邊會給予全力的支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會大力地支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要大力地支持……"],["何次長晉滄：是，我們9月份……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席在經濟委員會也一直跟卓揆在吶喊。"],["何次長晉滄：是，跟委員報告，9月份的漢諾威展，我們跟工具機產業公會已經在討論要怎麼樣去成立一個臺灣館，所以這個部分，我們是帶著產業一起到德國那邊去做市場拓銷。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為要拿到訂單，他們非常地勇敢，所以我第一時間就吶喊，政府一定要好好協助我們的產業到全世界各國去參展，這個非常、非常地重要，所以一定要落實到，卓揆，會落實到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：都在我們的支持方案裡面，產業的聯合參展幫大家開拓多元的市場，以及用TAIWAN 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謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":19.597,"end":40.871,"text":"委員長辛苦了剛剛看到在野黨委員的質詢真的是不給你講話的機會也不給同來背詢的各位首長講話的機會事實上質詢就是要好好的講清楚就算是在野監督執政也是要理性好好的溝通好好的講清楚"},{"start":41.451,"end":63.062,"text":"真理是越辯越明讲清楚才能够让我们所有的台湾人民知道我们政府正在努力做什么就如同我们今天的专案报告对美的关税的谈判我们现在是暂时性的关税那也正在协商当中这一个立场这一个态度我想为了"},{"start":63.682,"end":78.01,"text":"為了國家的民生經濟為了國人的就業為了很多的民生的食品安全等等我想我們盡力很多談判兩個字就是有來有往我們有要進攻也有要守護的"},{"start":79.671,"end":93.458,"text":"可以從跟美國好好的談判的這個過程裡面能夠截取國家最大的利益院長這個才是我們真的今天這個專案報告安排需要好好談清楚之所在對不對院長"},{"start":94.64,"end":109.174,"text":"對 我們一直秉持以國家利益 產業利益為最大優先進行談判那很多的細節我們都說過國際談判的慣例在還沒有到細節完全底定的時候是不能夠全部向外界來說明的但是我們有承諾依法"},{"start":110.323,"end":133.795,"text":"談判抵定之後一定送到國會這個必須要的程序也是我們的憲政體制所以我們一定遵守我們要大大方方而且清楚直白的向國人說清楚免除國人的疑慮這就是我們行政院的責任對不對院長早上在報告裡面我也強調過這一點我們一定在談判"},{"start":135.1,"end":151.582,"text":"達到協議的時候要向國人 向社會 向國會做說明同時依照條約第第結法相關裡面的條文必須送國會來審議我想這個是基本而且是必要的程序我也希望大家說總統希望兩院互動模式調整"},{"start":152.483,"end":172.014,"text":"我也不認為這應該只是單方面的調整像這種質詢的內容應該體諒到整個談判團隊在目前他有一些必要的難處所以應該讓談判團隊更有大的一個空間但是只要原則性大家都能夠體會到支持談判團隊去把談判做好才是談判團隊最大的本錢"},{"start":173.542,"end":197.22,"text":"我同意院長但是同樣站在監督的角色我也期待也認為行政院呢在對美談判的這個過程當中可以講的可以公開的應該要講清楚我覺得第一個這叫安民心第二個這個是讓我們國人知道我們的談判團隊是如何的辛苦因為我剛剛光是聽到"},{"start":198.661,"end":218.033,"text":"我們到底實體去談判了幾次跟線上視訊的會議談判了幾次在野黨委員搞不清楚那如果連在野黨的委員都搞不清楚那表示一般國人也搞不清楚甚至產業界也搞不清楚那我的意思是說我們該讓人民知道的就該讓"},{"start":219.594,"end":234.05,"text":"他們知道而且要清楚明白的講清楚我們實體的去談判四次就是四次有誰去每一次到底談判的團隊到底有誰又是談的相關可以公開的議題第二個"},{"start":234.611,"end":250.647,"text":"我們視訊會議有三次三次我們又談了哪些又該是怎麼樣的讓階段性的讓國人清楚讓產業安心我覺得這個在我們作為監督的角色希望行政院跟談判團隊可不可以"},{"start":252.008,"end":276.061,"text":"我們一定說明更清楚視訊會議是八月以來三次之前加起來十幾次所以剛剛在野黨委員所得知的跟現在講的你看次數又不一樣副院長有意思強調八月一號回來以後是三次報告委員四月以來四次實體每一次是數天然後中間有十次的視訊會議那我剛說明的三次是八月一號"},{"start":278.102,"end":301.842,"text":"這個我們7月31號公布台灣階段性對等稅率之後我們又進行了三次的視訊會議那我們想每一次的實體會議都是我跟楊政委還有跨部會的代表一起去那每次會他們都有發布新聞不過盧委員所說的我們會善盡說明的責任我想我們會持續的向國會跟社會來說明談判的進度我覺得這是一定要的"},{"start":302.543,"end":325.264,"text":"不然會造成很多不必要的誤解譬如說我們台中是傳統製造業在這一次受美國關稅衝擊最嚴重的地方之前我也要請鄭麗君副院長到台中來開過座談會那時候還沒有啟動談判之前那產業界就非常的擔心那時候也謝謝鄭麗君副院長代表院長來到現場來"},{"start":328.267,"end":349.661,"text":"說明了一些我們可能會碰到的問題還有產業界提出的問題我們又該如何的有配套因應的措施我們台中現在不僅僅是美國關稅的問題加上匯率的問題雪上加霜雙重壓力造成我必須要讓院長跟各位知道這個無薪假"},{"start":350.481,"end":376.928,"text":"越來越多 製造業減班休息創今年來的新高這個都是勞動部的一個數字今天的自由時報也是大篇幅的報導台中的工具機 模具 塑膠製品 電子材料等傳統製造業大受影響 事實上我必須說不是只有這些產業只要涉及所有出口的產業都非常的"},{"start":377.688,"end":403.494,"text":"民不聊生我要用這四個字為什麼要用這四個字因為呢在我台中的很多的產業還感受不到政府的這個輔助的措施到底能不能讓他們挺過這一次的難關院長這個就是說我是一個監督的角色我也必須要務實的把這些問題帶給行政院行政院的就應該要好好的對外說清楚我們有哪些的"},{"start":404.154,"end":432.057,"text":"輔助方案我們又能夠怎麼簡化有效率能夠讓這些產業中小企業及其勞工知道院長您上個禮拜有到台中來開過座談會座談會上各工協會的理事長幹部也都有提出一些問題雖然在現場的時間很短沒有辦法一一的回答但是我請教一下院長您上次來到台中跟各工協會一起在討論座談那他們提出的問題"},{"start":433.058,"end":454.318,"text":"有解方嗎中規矩向第一個我想大部分都提到了金融支持希望能夠給他們更多實質有效的金融支持這個回來我們已經請相關財政單位來做處理希望銀行能夠做一些有效的開放銀行會主委在這裡再來就是申請的手續太過的繁雜我們也希望說表格要簡化"},{"start":454.798,"end":477.425,"text":"第二個我要一直要求經濟部從身份別來告訴你是什麼業者你是什麼身份你可以得到什麼樣的保障用這個方向來出發比他一個一個去查他能夠所有的產業支持的方案這樣可能比較有效如果你是中小企業你是手工具你是水母機你是用這個身份別來告訴業者你這樣就可以清楚"},{"start":479.086,"end":504.326,"text":"必須要用產業鏈的一個概念來做輔導跟做補助我不能只有ABC我產業鏈裡面有可能他的協力廠商都是相關受到衝擊的那按照產業別之外還要用產業鏈的一個協力的一個團隊的一個產業來共同的來受到政府的補助或者是政府的支持我覺得這是很重要的一件事包括剛剛講的資金"},{"start":506.748,"end":523.721,"text":"彈性調度以及金融支持的部分主委你要不要補充跟委員報告我們這次設計的那個這個產業支持方案其實我們除了有個案申請外我們還有這個研發的整個多家提案的一個補助就是剛剛委員提到的就是整個產業鏈"},{"start":525.043,"end":540.58,"text":"整個供應鏈主委你剛剛講到研發兩個字我認為你要再回去調整現在受美國關稅跟不景氣的影響都已經衝擊很大了我們的企業端資方要在所謂的研發在投入資金對他們來講是難善加難"},{"start":542.222,"end":565.512,"text":"所以你的這個資金的彈性運用是要如何因應這一次美國關稅以及匯率的影響造成雙重的壓力所以經濟不景氣沒有訂單所以他們維持他們員工的生計有困難所以他們企業的一個資金的調度需要政府支持我覺得用這樣子的角度去好好調整你的金融的協助對策確實我們在鍾曉微的這個貸款計畫裡面"},{"start":570.914,"end":593.276,"text":"是有這樣的一個設計就是說我們除了新保金提高保證程數以外我們還有做利息補貼也可以讓中小企業可以減輕他的一個負擔院長我會問這一件事就在於我們過去對於這個中小微企業的一個金融支持我們綁了很多條件那如果我們這一次像今天的專案報告我們這一次是因應美國的關稅的一個衝擊"},{"start":595.158,"end":609.984,"text":"這麼的嚴重的影響到國內的產業那也間接的直接的就影響到勞工員工那我覺得這樣子的資金的一個金融支持就應該要什麼應該要減變而且要大力的支持啦院長已經有指示從寬從減從速"},{"start":614.526,"end":617.931,"text":"中小微的貸款最高額度3500萬然後在250萬以內利息減碼1.5%然後100萬以內保證成數是10成另外還有外銷貸款的部分每一家最高6000萬的保證額度保證成數是"},{"start":633.513,"end":653.864,"text":"這個九成五那也減免這個保證的手續費最長兩年那麼另外有兩項補助轉型的補助當然雖然有研發可是也支持轉型包含設備購置的補助每一家五百萬那剛剛委員提到供應鏈如果一起來的話申請的話可以最高聯盟四千萬那海外分散訂單"},{"start":655.585,"end":682.857,"text":"分散市場海外訂單每一家五百萬如果一起來的話聯盟申請最高兩千萬我想這些兩項補助兩項貸款這個是現在已經都在受理中的那院長也有特別指示這個重減重塑以外針對這個加總關稅以後稅率比較高以及面對競爭對手他的關稅比較劣勢的特定的項目我們再加碼給予特別個案的支持"},{"start":683.305,"end":709.789,"text":"我還有兩項 我希望舊貸不收新貸速審舊貸款不會把它收回來在這個時候新的貸款加速審查院長這兩句話是重點但是我要請主委好好的要求銀行我們在實務面上看到中小微企業碰到的銀行來的壓力不太像是院長所說的這兩個原則我們請主委來說明一下我想過去金融業過去面對到很多次類似的"},{"start":710.709,"end":728.981,"text":"這樣的一個困境的時候都有採取類似的動作我想這次也不例外陳同剛才院長講的就是我們只要是你這個展期比我們到今年12月31號你只要繼續經營而且繳期正常了這部分我們會展延這個六個月絕對沒問題假設我已經有看到這個問題的話我們會來了解來督促我們銀行確實辦理"},{"start":732.714,"end":759.603,"text":"我跟你講實際的狀況跟你了解的可能有落差我是希望我們早時間會後再來好好討論我下一頁就要告訴你為什麼資金的調度跟金融的支持很重要我去爬梳了一下數據院長你看到你會嚇一跳我們今年6月份的數據工廠歇業的數量比去年的同期多了174%"},{"start":764.34,"end":775.423,"text":"174%這個是從你們的資料調來的我必須講這個數字你可以再去double check但是以我在中部地區我台中我剛剛講產業鏈的一個關係我的選區是最多的協力加工廠"},{"start":789.827,"end":814.023,"text":"你可以去我們各大這個工業區或是周邊零星工業區或是周邊區域去看一看這個歇業或者是這個門關起來沒有在運作的工廠廠房真的比以前多了很多那這個就是我剛剛講的很多工廠因為沒有訂單做事修山還好有的甚至叫做山修士"},{"start":821.275,"end":822.621,"text":"為什麼無薪假的人數會"},{"start":824.714,"end":850.213,"text":"創新高原因就在這裡啊那當然我知道我們勞動部部長你會跟我說我們有啟動一些的補助方案但是呢有很多中小微型特別是微型的加工廠他去申請的這個所有勞工的支持補助方案的比例是不高的部長你可以回去用你的這個補助的一個數據裡面好好的去盤點一下為什麼"},{"start":851.354,"end":856.607,"text":"特別是微型的加工廠他們可以申請到政府補助的比例是相對的低"},{"start":857.543,"end":882.521,"text":"跟委員說明其實現在我們從數據上面看到來申請的這個的減班休息的薪資補貼的大部分其實都是中小微的廠商中小微裡面我希望你能夠再進一步的去盤點中小微裡面的各自的申請比例因為這樣子才能夠作為政策的依據我們市民應該更大力的支持微型加工業"},{"start":883.562,"end":909.331,"text":"是那沒有錯比方說的確現在我覺得比較具挑戰比較辛苦的就是比如說金屬製品加工跟工具機跟機械業其實蠻多確實都是在中部的地方那這裡面他的確他有過去跟中國在搶單的問題但也有現在關稅跟匯率同時遇到的問題所以我們現在在我們的薪資補貼的範疇裡面其實我們把它放寬了現在放蠻寬的"},{"start":910.447,"end":923.852,"text":"是把匯率的影響也放進來不只是關稅的影響我們就覺得不用再特別一定要去區別你是匯率還是關稅所以這個特別請你大力宣傳有很多中小微企業是不知道的我最後的時間我是建議院長長期的基金來扶持"},{"start":940.031,"end":940.052,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（16時18分）謝謝副院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：卓院長，辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，大家辛苦。"],["何委員欣純：其實剛剛看到在野黨委員的質詢，真的是不給您講話的機會，也不給同來備詢的各位首長講話的機會。事實上，質詢就是要好好地講清楚，就算是在野監督執政，也要理性、好好地溝通、好好地講清楚，真理是愈辯愈明，講清楚才能夠讓所有的臺灣人民知道我們政府正在努力做什麼。就如同今天的專案報告──對美的關稅談判，我們現在是暫時性的關稅，也正在協商當中，就這個立場、這個態度，為了國家的民生、經濟，為了國人的就業，為了很多民生、食品安全等等，我想我們盡力很多。「談判」兩個字就是有來有往，我們有要進攻，也有要守護的，我們希望可以從跟美國好好談判的過程裡面，能夠攫取國家最大的利益，院長，這個才是安排今天這個專案報告需要好好談清楚之所在，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們一直秉持以國家利益、產業利益為最大優先來進行談判，但那有很多的細節，我們都說過，依國際談判的慣例，在還沒有到細節完全底定的時候，是不能夠全部向外界來說明的。"],["何委員欣純：但是我們有承諾在依法談判底定之後一定送到國會。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["何委員欣純：這是必須要的程序，也是我們的憲政體制，所以我們一定會遵守，我們要大大方方而且清楚、直白的向國人說清楚，免除國人的疑慮，院長，這就是行政院的責任，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：早上在報告裡面我也強調過這一點，我們一定要在談判達到協議的時候向國人、向社會、向國會做說明，同時依照條約締結法相關的條文，必須送國會來審議，我想這個是基本而且必要的程序，大家說總統希望兩院互動模式要調整，我也不認為這應該只是單方面的調整，像這種質詢的內容，應該要體諒到整個談判團隊在目前有一些必要的難處，所以應該讓談判團隊有一個更大的空間，只要原則性大家都能夠體會到，支持談判團隊去把談判做好，這才是談判團隊最大的本錢。"],["何委員欣純：我同意院長所說的，但是同樣站在監督的角色，我既期待也認為行政院在對美談判的過程當中，可以講的、可以公開的，就應該要講清楚，第一個，這叫安民心；第二個，這樣可以讓我們國人知道我們的談判團隊是如何的辛苦。我剛剛聽到對於我們到底去實體談判了幾次跟線上視訊會議談判了幾次，在野黨委員都搞不清楚，如果連在野黨的委員都搞不清楚，那表示一般國人也搞不清楚，甚至產業界也搞不清楚。我的意思是說，我們該讓人民知道的，就應該讓他們知道，而且要明白地講清楚，包括我們實體談判有4次就是4次，還有每一次談判團隊到底有誰、又是談了哪些可以公開的議題。第二個，我們視訊會議有3次，在這3次中我們又談了哪些，應該要怎麼樣階段性的讓國人清楚、讓產業安心，我覺得我們作為監督的角色，非常希望行政院跟談判團隊可以做到。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定會說明得更清楚，視訊會議是8月以來有3次，和之前的加起來是有十幾次。"],["鄭副院長麗君：有十幾次。"],["何委員欣純：你看剛剛在野黨委員所得知的跟現在講的次數又不一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：副院長有一直強調從8月1號回來以後是3次。"],["鄭副院長麗君：對，報告委員，4月以來是4次實體，每一次是數天，然後中間有10次的視訊會議，那我剛剛說明的3次是8月1號以後，就是我們在7月31號公布臺灣階段性對等稅率之後又進行了3次的視訊會議。我們每一次的實體會議都是我跟楊政委還有跨部會的代表一起去，每次回來以後我們都有發布新聞，不過就如委員所說的，我們會善盡說明的責任，我想我們會持續地向國會跟社會來說明談判的進度。"],["何委員欣純：是，我覺得這是一定要的，不然會造成很多不必要的誤解，譬如說，我們臺中的傳統製造業是在這一次受美國關稅衝擊最嚴重的地方，之前我也有請鄭麗君副院長到臺中來開過座談會，那是在還沒有啟動談判之前，當時產業界就非常的擔心，也謝謝鄭麗君副院長在那時候代表院長來到現場，說明了我們可能會碰到的一些問題，還有對產業界提出的問題我們又該如何的有配套因應的措施。我們臺中現在不僅僅是美國關稅的問題，還加上匯率的問題，真的是雪上加霜，受到雙重壓力，我必須要讓院長跟各位知道，這已經造成無薪假越來越多，製造業減班、休息創今年來的新高，這個都是勞動部的數字。今天自由時報也有大篇幅的報導，臺中的工具機、模具、塑膠製品、電子材料等傳統製造業大受影響，事實上，我必須要說，並不是只有這些產業，只要涉及出口的所有產業都非常民不聊生，我要用這四個字來形容，為什麼用這四個字？因為在我們臺中有很多產業還感受不到政府的輔助措施到底能不能讓他們挺過這一次的難關。院長，我是扮演監督的角色，我也必須要務實地把這些問題帶給行政院，行政院就應該要好好地對外說清楚，我們有哪些輔助方案，我們又能夠怎麼簡化、有效率，能夠讓這些產業、中小企業及其勞工知道。院長上個禮拜有到臺中開過座談會，座談會上各公協會的理事長、幹部也都有提出一些問題，雖然在現場的時間很短，沒有辦法一一地回答，但是我請教院長，您上次來到臺中跟各公協會一起討論、座談，他們提出的問題有解方嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：綜規幾項，第一個，大部分都提到了金融支持，希望能夠給他們更多實質有效的金融支持，我們回來已經請相關財政單位來做處理，希望銀行能夠做一些有效的開放。"],["何委員欣純：金管會主委也在這裡，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：再來就是申請的手續太過繁雜，我們也希望表格要簡化。第二個，我一直要求經濟部，從身分別來告訴他們，你是什麼業者、你是什麼身分，你可以得到什麼樣的保障，從這個方向出發，比他一個一個去查所有的產業支持方案，這樣可能會比較有效。如果你是中小企業，你是手工具，你是水五金，用這個身分別來告訴業者，這樣就可以清楚。"],["何委員欣純：而且院長還有一點，必須要用產業鏈的概念來輔導及補助，不能只有ABC，產業鏈裡面有可能他的協力廠商都是相關受到衝擊的，按照產業別之外，還要用產業鏈的協力團隊、產業來共同受到政府的補助或者是政府的支持，我覺得這是很重要的一件事，包括剛剛講的資金彈性調度以及金融支持的部分，主委，你要不要補充？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們這次設計的產業支持方案，其實除了有個案申請以外，還有研發多家提案的補助，就是剛剛委員提到的，整個產業鏈、整個供應鏈……"],["何委員欣純：次長，你剛剛講到「研發」兩個字，我認為你要再回去調整，現在受美國關稅跟不景氣的影響都已經衝擊很大了，我們的企業端、資方要在所謂的研發再投入資金，對他們來講是難上加難，所以資金的彈性運用是要如何因應這一次美國關稅以及匯率的影響，造成雙重的壓力，經濟不景氣沒有訂單，他們維持員工的生計有困難，所以企業的資金調度需要政府支持，我覺得用這樣子的角度去好好調整你的金融協助對策。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們在中小微貸款計畫裡面確實是有這樣的設計，除了信保基金提高保證成數以外，還有做利息補貼，也可以讓中小企業減輕負擔。"],["何委員欣純：院長，我會問這件事就在於我們過去對於中小微企業的金融支持綁了很多條件，像今天的專案報告，我們這一次是因應美國的關稅衝擊，這麼嚴重地影響到國內的產業，也間接的、直接的影響到勞工、員工，我覺得資金的金融支持就應該要簡便，而且要大力的支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請副院長來答復。"],["鄭副院長麗君：院長已經有指示從寬、從簡、從速，中小微的貸款最高額度3,500萬，在250萬以內利息減碼1.5%，100萬以內保證成數是十成；還有外銷貸款的部分，每一家最高6,000萬的保證額度，保證成數是九成五，也減免保證的手續費最長兩年。另外有兩項補助，轉型補助，雖然有研發，可是也支持轉型，包含設備購置補助，每一家500萬，剛剛委員也有提到供應鏈，如果一起來申請的話，可以聯盟申請，最高是4,000萬。至於海外分散市場，海外訂單每一家500萬，如果一起來的話，聯盟申請最高是2,000萬，這兩項補助、兩項貸款是現在已經都在受理中的。院長也有特別指示，從簡、從速以外，針對加總關稅以後稅率比較高，以及面對競爭對手的關稅比較劣勢的特定項目，我們再加碼給予特別個案的支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：還有兩項，我希望舊貸不收、新貸速審，舊的貸款在這個時候不會把它收回來，新的貸款加速審查。"],["何委員欣純：院長，這兩句話是重點，但是我要請主委好好地要求銀行，我們在實務面上看到中小微企業碰到銀行來的壓力，不太像是院長所說的這兩個原則。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請主委來說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員說明一下，過去金融業面對很多次類似這樣的困境時，都有採取類似的動作，我想這次也不例外。誠如剛才院長講的，只要是展期，例如我們到今年12月30號，你只要繼續經營，而且繳息正常，這部分我們展延6個月絕對沒問題，假設委員有看到這個問題的話，我們會來了解、來督促銀行確實辦理。"],["何委員欣純：主委，我跟你講，實際狀況跟你了解的可能有落差，我是希望我們找時間會後再來好好討論。現在我要告訴你為什麼資金的調度跟金融的支持很重要。我去爬梳了一下數據，院長，你看到會嚇一跳，這是今年6月份的數據，工廠歇業的數量比去年同期多了174%……"],["卓院長榮泰：歇業的。"],["何委員欣純：歇業、關廠的達174%欸！"],["卓院長榮泰：請經濟部答復……"],["何委員欣純：這是從你們的資料調來的，我必須講這個數字你可以再去double check，但是以我在中部地區的臺中，我剛剛講產業鏈的關係，在我選區是最多協力加工廠，你可以去我們各大工業區、周邊零星工業區或是周邊區域看一看，歇業或者是門關起來沒有在運作的工廠廠房真的比以前多了很多；這個就是我剛剛講的，很多工廠因為沒有訂單，做四休三還好，有的甚至要做三休四，即工作三天休息四天，為什麼無薪假的人數會創新高？原因就在這裡。當然我知道勞動部部長會跟我說我們有啟動一些補助方案，但是有很多中小微型工廠，特別是微型的加工廠去申請勞工支持補助方案的比例是不高的。部長，你可以回去從補助數據裡面好好盤點一下，為什麼特別是微型的加工廠，他們可以申請到政府補助的比例是相對的低？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在我們從數據上面看到來申請減班休息薪資補貼的對象，大部分其實都是中小微型廠商。"],["何委員欣純：在中小微型廠商裡面，我希望你能夠再進一步盤點中小微裡面各自申請的比例，因為這樣子才能夠作為政策依據，我們是不是應該更大力支持微型加工業？"],["洪部長申翰：是，沒有錯。的確現在我覺得比較具挑戰、比較辛苦的，例如金屬製品加工、工具機跟機械業，其實滿多確實都是在中部地方，這裡面的確有過去跟中國在搶單的問題，但也有現在關稅跟匯率同時遇到的問題，所以我們現在薪資補貼的範疇裡面，其實我們把它放寬了，現在放滿寬的是把匯率的影響也放進來，不只是關稅的影響，我們覺得不用一定要再特別區辨是匯率還是關稅……"],["何委員欣純：這個可不可以請你大力宣傳？有很多中小微企業是不知道的。"],["洪部長申翰：當然！"],["何委員欣純：最後的時間我建議院長，以長期基金來扶持中小微企業是一個長久之計，這要拜託院長，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好、好，我們一定加速讓中小微企業對應轉型……"],["何委員欣純：對準它的勞工，因為中小微型企業……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然這相關。"],["何委員欣純：養了臺灣絕大部分的勞工和家庭。"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何委員，謝謝卓院長及副院長。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adcf4854c67ff316143c0ac07f6ba1e1b0996637cd1f4f7f645a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"16:02:22 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我們先請卓院長請卓院長備詢首先我要詢問一下在823 32比0之後呢台美關稅在朝野的對話能不能夠提升 您覺得"},{"start":31.829,"end":43.55,"text":"我們應大院要求今天來做報告那這個時間這是在8月23日之前但爛線的總統發表談話是昨天我的意思是說從今天開始會不會比前天更好"},{"start":45.182,"end":64.309,"text":"我說今天我們來這裡報告是一個月以前就排定的時間我要問的是在賴清的總統的宣誓之後你認為朝野協商我們這樣子的對話需不需要我們縣我們行政院跟在野黨的協商跟溝通的管道跟方式需不需要有所改變"},{"start":65.149,"end":85.04,"text":"我們調整財政體質 調整兩院互動調整這個施政順序 調整內閣人士那賴清德總統說調整的順序第一個就是經濟優先那我想當然也包含台美關稅民生若是青年優先 那請問一下我們卓內閣之前的優先訊是什麼第一優先是什麼"},{"start":87.085,"end":104.878,"text":"去年520來的時候總統要求的第一個就是經濟發展不對喔 不對喔 劉慶德總統說要調整順序要調整的意思代表什麼 代表本來不是嘛所以你現在告訴我說第一個順序叫做經濟那既然第一個順序叫做經濟 那現在要調整什麼嘛"},{"start":105.56,"end":123.096,"text":"就讓我們經濟體質更好要調整得更好所以只不過是本來不夠好所以要更好那不算什麼調整嘛那第二個順序是什麼第二個順序是什麼來 第二個順序是什麼卓內閣的第二個優先順序你施政順序的第二個是什麼"},{"start":123.777,"end":142.008,"text":"你說總統說的你說的我在問你啊我說總統要求我們第一個就是經濟發展我說的是在8.23之前不要浪費我的時間好那總之賴清德總統強調呢要改變行政跟立法的互動但是呢我們可以看到今天質詢我覺得沒有任何的改變啊"},{"start":142.648,"end":162.307,"text":"跟823以前完全沒有不一樣啊你採納了哪一個在野黨的立委的意見呢賴清的俗話你根本沒有在聽嘛比方說賴清的總統有沒有講四個優先有青年優先有沒有有沒有嘛你不要一直浪費我的時間嘛四個優先你該不會沒有去看那場記者會吧"},{"start":163.459,"end":191.716,"text":"我們未來在他講的第四個優先就是青年優先沒有什麼未不未來結果行政院隔天拿財化法去綁架小學生啊不讓他們喝水缺冷氣用點拿小學生開刀對嗎財化法各個縣市都已經有去投入他們的整個規劃也行政院相關的一定都知道講過很多次了例如台北市2500多億要投入捷運要蓋社會住宅改善交通興建醫療場所"},{"start":193.297,"end":213.785,"text":"你可以跟地方政府溝通啊不是溝通是823當天賴清德總統講的嗎結果你有沒有跟各縣市溝通就直接開刀要綁架小孩的權益啊有嗎這件事情你們有跟地方溝通完成協商完畢才公布的嗎委員你們在定裁判法新的時候有沒有跟行政院"},{"start":214.685,"end":239.648,"text":"溝通過 想到說行政院要被拿去三千七百多億財政收支劃分法講了二十多年了以前賴清德總統也同意嘛所以我們才說的嘛所以我要講的事情是你覺得作為一個行政院中央的機關你都編列了財化法的預算了然後你今天要綁架小朋友的這些吹冷氣的費用你不需要跟地方公眾溝通完畢之後再告訴大眾"},{"start":240.709,"end":248.494,"text":"不需要用這種字眼用這種字眼來抹煞跟扭曲行政院的做法我們是才華嘛媽媽群組都已經炸過了這叫什麼凹人一時爽啊 全越火葬場啊"},{"start":256.378,"end":269.884,"text":"總統的話拜託行政院要聽緊去啊你可以跟地方政府討論完畢之後共同公佈啊我剛剛問的事情是你們討論完共同公佈了沒有嗎跟委員報告 我們都有跟地方政府溝通結果呢 溝通的結果是什麼正向的負向的"},{"start":282.55,"end":305.461,"text":"告訴而已台北市比今年114年增加420億我都知道我問你也是電力的部分你跟政府溝通之後成功了沒有嗎我沒有跟地方政府溝通柴化法的分配啊所以你的意思是台北市告訴你說他同意新北市告訴你說他同意他們現在這些市長都在騙人"},{"start":307.142,"end":307.783,"text":"沒有什麼騙人"},{"start":337.322,"end":358.476,"text":"共同報告很好啊 結果沒有啊賴清德總統說的是要朝野溝通朝野多話行政跟立法溝通當然也要跟地方溝通你溝通沒有成功今天就片面的來宣布這是大家覺得很荒謬的地方我們過去兩三個禮拜很多重要法案一步一步的推我覺得這是一個新的模式"},{"start":358.956,"end":379.068,"text":"你新的模式裡面你對於我們剛剛講的你就是認識嘛你不要拿其他的議題來讀我這個議題嘛我剛剛問的就是沒有溝通出正向的結果就貿然的公佈導致於地方縣市政府跟媽媽群都非常的不滿嘛好 我們今天的重要主題是關於台美的關稅我要詢問的是20%的關稅是暫時性的"},{"start":385.071,"end":413.639,"text":"那現在已經25天快要一個月了請問這個暫時性什麼時候要結束要多久從今天早上開始諮詢到現在這個已經好幾次提出的問題因為你們沒有解決跟答案所以每個人都要問啊我不問是我不盡責啊在說些什麼啊是謝謝委員台美持續三分鐘每一個人都問一次也是應當的啊我們希望越快能夠談出一個結果越快越好嘛好全力努力"},{"start":414.3,"end":430.54,"text":"剛剛聽了質詢發現大多數都是視訊會議很少是實體磋商只有四次而已嗎每一輪都有數天的時間但是總體數大多都是線上磋商為主嗎不是實體磋商為主"},{"start":431.161,"end":445.097,"text":"然後中間四輪而且每次去都是數天數天那請問線上的會議開了幾次實體磋商之間就會透過視訊會議實體磋商之間還透過視訊會議所以實體磋商實體磋商不一定是讓我完整講完才有資訊"},{"start":450.123,"end":477.228,"text":"我會問你會讓你講好嗎我會給你時間所以實體磋商這四個字不代表都是面對面中間還有視訊的部分是嗎實體磋商就是我們人到華府面對面雙方的談判團隊坐下來數天的時間就各項議題逐一的磋商那對方除了我們組團的對代表也有他們相關的議題的專家那我方有我楊政委也有相關的部會就不同的議題大家就來進行磋商"},{"start":478.068,"end":492.536,"text":"沒有視訊的部分實體的話就不是視訊嗎實體就是我們人到華府實體跟實體之間呢就會透過視訊會議保持這個相關的持續的操作跟聯繫剛才您剛剛講了三次疊加當實體在面對面談判的時候我們整個台灣在台北"},{"start":497.859,"end":506.603,"text":"也配合美國時間總統領隊一直到深夜運動一直沒有離開剛才因為講到一個就是沒有講清楚就是實體跟視訊的部分那剛才講清楚我現在了解了我可以接受啊那但是我要問的是您剛剛說三次最近的視訊會議都有向美方表達說不要用疊加的方式那請問對方的意見是正向還是負向的"},{"start":525.032,"end":553.49,"text":"還是沒有評論我們持續的正向朝向最後總結會議在持續的磋商當中但是要最終因為通常是達成協議的時候會去談最終美方降稅的方案那美方降稅方案裡面我們裡面就會觸及疊加不疊加所以還有距離原則上各國都是沒有疊加但歐盟有例外所以現在還有一段距離是嗎各國都是疊加歐盟例外不疊加所以不疊加最後談出來"},{"start":554.611,"end":568.078,"text":"但是不疊加的可能性很高我們也要爭取不疊加就是最後不疊加比照你所說的其他國家而非歐盟的機會非常高是嗎歐盟是例外所以他是例外的話我們可以成為"},{"start":570.2,"end":577.065,"text":"無論例外跟原則我方的目標就是全力努力爭取再這樣會抗毀黨跟不疊加我們就是全力努力爭取"},{"start":585.012,"end":603.648,"text":"那剛才這個賴世保委員的詢問你們只承認市場要開放沒有說要零關稅好 那沒關係我們針對市場開放來做一個討論你們今天的報告寫的有關於呢這個糧食安全希望能夠從美國採購黃豆 玉米 小麥 石油 天然氣 跟農工產品"},{"start":604.629,"end":626.632,"text":"但是媒體額外報導的部分有關於牛肉豬肉的動植物檢驗措施還有我特別針對家禽跟蛋製品兩個詢問好了家禽跟蛋製品的部分要讓他取消美國產品的限制跟許可這個是假消息假新聞還是真的有這件事"},{"start":628.033,"end":642.21,"text":"這個報導剛剛今天有速度回答我只問這個我只問我只問佳琴跟沒有像經貿辦跟我們查證那其實每一方每一年他都會公布一個關稅貿易障礙的年度報告我想委員這都是公開資訊"},{"start":643.491,"end":671.863,"text":"這裡面提到很多項都是美國他會對每一國公布他認為的關稅貿易障礙那在這些範圍裡面美方當然會提出他的期待來協商但是我們的一個原則就是國民健康糧食安全當然嘛所以我認為說在家禽跟淡製品這兩種我就問這兩種就好了在家禽類就是如雞等等還有在這個蛋的限制跟許可會在這個關稅談判當中去取消它嗎"},{"start":673.959,"end":703.532,"text":"不瞭解委員的問題是什麼我跟委員報告齁就是您剛才講的那個家禽跟就是雞啊或是蛋的部分齁那相對的就是美國他有提出不同包括農林漁區的品項都希望說某個程度的開放這是他們的期待那我們也有我們要守護的部分所以針對兩三天的部分我理解了那我要問代表啊那就是針對這個部分他剛才已經解釋給你聽了嘛那請問在這個部分我們要他們要我們開放的部分我們要談及到"},{"start":703.592,"end":719.709,"text":"我們工業部跟我們是一起我們各部位都是一起去那我們有談及到這個部分然後我們的態度是什麼那不要開放時刻嘛那你們每一個今天從早上到現在每一個都是持續溝通那這樣的話就沒有回答到我們真正的問題因為還沒有定案"},{"start":720.93,"end":749.853,"text":"如果還沒有定案那今天大家來質詢那意義在哪裡我再問一個問題喔如果開放零關稅的話農業項目包包含麵粉有討論到這個問題麵粉的零關稅開放美國開放麵粉零關稅有沒有討論到我跟委員報告黃曉玉還有小玉的小就是小麥的部分就是跟麵粉的部分現在就是零關稅那這一類的產品進來國內的話反而是降低國內的生產成本是對於國內的消費是有幫助的黃曉玉可以問我單純問麵粉的部分"},{"start":751.239,"end":772.385,"text":"對 因為整個的一個小麥的部分它有非常多的衰殖耗類其中有一個衰殖耗類就是麵粉的部分是 所以你認為這個反而對我國的麵粉會有幫助有一些關稅低的時候對我們的生產成本降低是有幫助的有些大宗原物料本國也在進行採購不過我想就這個相關項目這個沒有問題 剛剛你們已經回答了"},{"start":774.646,"end":795.482,"text":"再来我想要问关于台美关税的另外一个重点就是横平台美的贸易顺差其中有一项有机会记录的当然是武器的采购也就是军购在国防预算里面我们的武器采购有两种方式一种是FMS的军购就是军售政府对政府的"},{"start":795.802,"end":823.364,"text":"另外一種是DCS的商售是向軍火商購買的那請問我們目前來講平均兩種採購的比率是百分之多少對百分之多少這個部分我們還要在因為雙方的計算跟品項的設定到現在我們沒有辦法在這個地方講出一個設定出來你不要回答不出來就說不知道就是7比3"},{"start":824.165,"end":842.101,"text":"就是FMS是70 DCS是30因為外交部他們國防部都曾經回答過類似的問題所以你不要你不要自己回答不出來就說這個還要怎樣這一點都不細項我們的軍售是跟政府對政府或者是向軍售商軍火商購買這哪裡細項啦"},{"start":850.988,"end":868.465,"text":"我問一下現在政府對政府的採購能不能夠進入台美的貿易額之中能不能夠去衡量在有關軍購的部分我們尊重國防部的規劃是由國防部在進行規劃的外交部說不行啊不能進在這個台美貿易稅的當中啊"},{"start":869.105,"end":893.193,"text":"那我的意思是說基本的貿易順利差的確但是我們在談判當中我方也向美方表達我國賴清德總統在2月的時候就已經有正式公開的承諾所以這部分就是我方自己的一個承諾我知道嘛70%是走政府對政府嘛那這樣子我算出來大概是6656億沒有辦法算進去去橫平這個差額嘛"},{"start":897.774,"end":925.621,"text":"你不會不知道這件事吧我們不能這樣計算這個不是這樣的計算標準這是這樣去算的這是外交部的政務次長陳明齊他說的他說透過美國軍售FMS的管道不算在台美貿易額當中雙售DCS才算我要讓我再問一個問題我們有沒有辦法向美國爭取FMS的軍售也可以列入貿易米查我們有很多雙方的立場跟條件都互相在討論"},{"start":931.67,"end":934.204,"text":"她的事情就是在那邊講說什麼奧巴海奧會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（16時2分）謝謝主席，我們先請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：首先我要詢問一下，在823的32比0之後，你覺得臺美關稅在朝野的對話能不能夠提升？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們應大院要求今天來做報告，那這個時間點……"],["徐委員巧芯：這是在8月23日之前，但賴清德總統發表談話是昨天，我的意思是說，從今天開始會不會比前天更好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是說今天我們來這報告是一個月以前就排定的時間，那我們今天……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是之前就已經通過，都排定的嘛！我要問的是，在賴清德總統的宣示之後，你認為朝野協商，我們這樣子的對話，行政院跟在野黨協商跟溝通的管道跟方式，需不需要有所改變？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們調整財政體質、調整兩院互動、調整施政順序、調整內閣人士，都是我一個月前就講過的話。"],["徐委員巧芯：賴清德總統說要調整的順序，第一個就是經濟優先，那我想當然也包含臺美關稅、民生、弱勢、青年優先，那請問一下，我們卓內閣之前的優先順序是什麼？第一優先是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們去年520來的時候，總統要求的第一個就是經濟發展，第二個是……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，不對喔！不對喔！賴清德總統說要調整順序，要調整的意思代表什麼？代表本來不是嘛！所以你現在告訴我說第一個順序叫做經濟，既然第一個順序叫做經濟，那現在要調整什麼嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是讓我們經濟體質更好。"],["徐委員巧芯：要調整得更好？所以只不過是本來不夠好，現在要更好……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["徐委員巧芯：那不算什麼調整嘛！那第二個順序是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果不夠好，我們的經濟發展……"],["徐委員巧芯：第二個順序是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟成長率不會這麼高。"],["徐委員巧芯：來，第二個順序是什麼？卓內閣的第二個優先順序，你施政順序的第二個是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：你說總統說的？"],["徐委員巧芯：你說的，我在問你啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說總統要求我們第一個就是經濟發展，第二個是強化資安。"],["徐委員巧芯：我說的是在823之前，不要浪費我的時間。總之，賴清德總統強調要改變行政跟立法的互動，但是我們可以看到今天的質詢，我覺得沒有任何的改變，跟823以前完全沒有不一樣啊！你採納了哪一個在野黨立委的意見呢？賴清德說話你根本沒有在聽嘛！比方說，賴清德總統有沒有講四個優先有青年優先？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：有阿！我們未來在……"],["徐委員巧芯：有沒有嘛？你不要一直浪費我的時間，關於四個優先，你該不會沒有去看那場記者會吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們未來在明年度的總預算裡面有說明出來了……"],["徐委員巧芯：他講的第四個優先，就是青年優先，沒有什麼未不未來，結果行政院隔天拿財劃法去綁架小學生，不讓他們喝水、吹冷氣、用電，拿小學生開刀對嗎？財劃法各個縣市都已經有去投入他們的整個規劃，行政院相關的一定都知道，講過很多次了，例如臺北市兩千五百多億要投入捷運，要蓋社會住宅、改善交通、興建醫療場所，你可以跟地方政府溝通啊，溝通不是823當天賴清德總統講的嗎？結果你有沒有跟各縣市溝通、就直接開刀要綁架小孩的權益！有嗎？這件事情你們有跟地方溝通，完成協商完畢才公布的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你們在訂新的財劃法的時候，有沒有跟行政院溝通過，想到行政院要被拿去三千七百多億，現在已經要變4,000億……"],["徐委員巧芯：好嘛！財政收支劃分法講了二十多年了，以前賴清德總統也同意嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從來沒有反對……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們才修的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從來沒有反對適當的調整……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我要講的事情是，你覺得作為一個行政院中央的機關，你都編列財劃法的預算了，然後你今天要綁架小朋友這一些吹冷氣的費用，你不需要跟地方溝通完畢之後再告訴大眾？不需要？"],["卓院長榮泰：不需要用這種字眼……"],["徐委員巧芯：那這算什麼溝通啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：不需要用這種字眼來抹煞跟扭曲行政院的做法……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，你是嫌賴清德民調28%太高就對了啦！媽媽群組都已經炸鍋，這叫什麼？「拗人一時爽，全院火葬場」，總統的話拜託行政院要聽進去。"],["卓院長榮泰：中央交4,000億給地方，大家分配之後，難道不需要有一些事權的分配嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：你可以跟地方政府討論完畢之後共同公布啊，我剛剛問的事情是你們討論完，共同公布了沒有嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們都有跟地方政府溝通……"],["徐委員巧芯：結果呢？溝通的結果是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：8月15號還邀請各地方政府……"],["徐委員巧芯：正向的？負向的？"],["莊部長翠雲：告訴他們……"],["徐委員巧芯：「告訴」而已？"],["莊部長翠雲：告訴他們115年財劃法的分配，臺北市比今年114年增加452億……"],["徐委員巧芯：你不要浪費……這個我都知道、我都知道，我問你的是電力的部分，你跟地方政府溝通之後，成功了沒有嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們有跟地方政府溝通財劃法的分配，它增加452億，臺北市增加452億……"],["徐委員巧芯：成功了沒有？電費的部分？所以你的意思是臺北市告訴你說它同意？新北市告訴你說它同意？他們現在這些市長都在騙人？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有什麼騙人，我們告訴它是事實啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我知道了……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你知道臺北市多了四百多億嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：不要浪費大家的時間。不曉得我們院長對臺美的關稅……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你知道臺北市多了452億嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我怎麼會不知道？是我們審議的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！所以多了這些錢……"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛不是講這些錢地方政府都有規劃，包含投入捷運就有2,500億，我連數字都告訴你了，所以我才說如果你認為財劃法新增的部分要拿去用電力的話，你們溝通完，雙方有一個溝通好的結果，拿出來共同的報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明過了。"],["徐委員巧芯：共同報告很好啊，結果沒有啊，賴清德總統說的是要朝野溝通、朝野對話、行政跟立法溝通，當然也要跟地方溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：我很感謝……"],["徐委員巧芯：你溝通沒有成功，今天就片面來宣布，這是大家覺得很荒謬的地方。"],["卓院長榮泰：我很感謝立法院，我們過去兩、三個禮拜很多重要法案一步一步的推，我覺得這是一個新的模式，我也願意在這個模式……"],["徐委員巧芯：新的模式裡面，你對於我們剛剛講的，就事論事……"],["卓院長榮泰：我願意在這個模式上我們互相共同努力……"],["徐委員巧芯：你不要拿其他的議題來堵我這個議題嘛，我剛剛問的就是沒有溝通出正向的結果就貿然的公布，導致於地方縣市政府跟媽媽群都非常的不滿。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員不要助長這個不滿，應該再適當的說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們今天的重要主題是關於臺美的關稅，我要詢問是20%的關稅是暫時性的，現在已經25天，快要一個月了，請問這個暫時性什麼時候要結束？要多久？"],["卓院長榮泰：從今天早上開始質詢到現在，這個已經是第好幾次提出的問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為你們沒有解決跟答案，所以每個人都要問啊，我不問是我不盡責啊，你在說些什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請副院長再說一次。"],["鄭副院長麗君：是，謝謝委員，臺美持續溝通……"],["徐委員巧芯：每一個人都要問一次也是應當的。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們希望越快能夠談出一個結果……"],["徐委員巧芯：越快越好。"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們全力努力。"],["徐委員巧芯：剛剛聽了質詢發現大多數都是視訊會議，很少是實體磋商，只有四次而已……"],["鄭副院長麗君：沒有，過去四輪實體磋商，每一輪都有數天的時間……"],["徐委員巧芯：總體大多數都是線上磋商為主嘛？好，那我要問的是……"],["鄭副院長麗君：不是，實體磋商為主，然後中間四輪……"],["徐委員巧芯：實體磋商四次嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：中間四輪。"],["徐委員巧芯：四輪？"],["鄭副院長麗君：而且每次去都是數天。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，數天，對請問線上會議開了幾次？"],["鄭副院長麗君：實體磋商之間，就會透過視訊會議……"],["徐委員巧芯：實體磋商之間還透過視訊會議？"],["鄭副院長麗君：就透過實體磋商……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以實體磋商不一定是……"],["鄭副院長麗君：委員，是不是讓我完整講完，這樣委員才有資訊？"],["徐委員巧芯：我問你會讓你講，好嗎？會給你時間。所以「實體磋商」這四個字不代表都是面對面，中間還有視訊的部分，是嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：實體磋商就是我們人到華府面對面，雙方的談判團隊坐下來數天的時間就各項議題逐一磋商，對方除了主談的隊代表，也有他們相關的議題專家，我方有我及楊政委，也有相關的部會代表，就不同的議題大家就來進行磋商。"],["徐委員巧芯：了解，所以剛剛說沒有視訊的部分，實體就不是視訊嘛！"],["鄭副院長麗君：實體就是我們人到華府。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，這樣我了解了。"],["鄭副院長麗君：實體跟實體之間就會透過視訊會議保持相關的、持續的磋商跟聯繫。"],["徐委員巧芯：您剛剛講的三次疊加都是……"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告一句話，當大家實體面對面談判的時候，我們整個臺灣團隊在臺北也陪同配合美國時間，總統領隊配合美國時間一直到深夜，我們都一直沒有離開。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道啦，你只要講清楚就好了嘛！因為剛才有一個問題沒有講清楚，就是關於實體跟視訊的部分，不過剛剛已經講清楚，我現在了解了，我可以接受。"],["鄭副院長麗君：謝謝委員的詢問，我可以再補充，就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：我可以接受啊！但我要問的是，您剛剛說最近三次視訊會議都有向美方表達不要用疊加的方式，請問對方的意見是正向的還是負向的？還是沒有評論？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們持續的正向朝向最後總結會議在持續的磋商當中，但是要最終……因為通常是達成協議的時候，會去談最終美方降稅的方案，在美方降稅方案裡面就會觸及疊加或不疊加……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以還有距離？"],["鄭副院長麗君：但是我要跟委員報告，原則上各國都是疊加，但歐盟有例外……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以現在還有一段距離是嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：各國都是疊加，歐盟例外不疊加，我們知道日方也在爭取，我們也要爭取……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以最後談出不疊加的可能性很高，我可以這麼說嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我們也要爭取不疊加。"],["徐委員巧芯：就是最後不疊加，比照你所說的其他國家，而非歐盟的機會非常高，是嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：歐盟是例外，但是……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果他是例外的話，我們也有很高的機會成為例外嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：無論例外跟原則，我方的目標就是全力努力爭取再降、對等和不疊加……"],["徐委員巧芯：目標是目標，但是你們自己一定會評估一個機會嘛！你們一定會評估一個機會，坦白說，如果是正向的，今天這麼多委員問，你們早就講了。","剛才賴士葆委員的詢問，你們只承認市場要開放，沒有說要零關稅。沒關係，我們針對市場開放來做一個討論，你們今天的報告寫到，有關於糧食安全，希望能夠從美國採購黃豆、玉米、小麥、石油、天然氣等農工產品，但是媒體額外報導的部分有關於牛肉、豬肉的動植物檢驗措施，我特別針對家禽和蛋製品兩個部分來詢問好了，聽說家禽和蛋製品要取消美國產品進口限制及許可要求，請問這個是假消息、假新聞還是真的有這件事？"],["鄭副院長麗君：關於這則報導，今天已經數度回答，並沒有向……"],["徐委員巧芯：我只問家禽和蛋製品。"],["鄭副院長麗君：沒有向經貿辦跟我們查證，其實美方每一年都會公布一個關稅貿易障礙的年度報告，這都是公開資訊，這裡面提到很多項都是美國會對每一國公布他認為的關稅貿易障礙，在這些範圍裡面，美方當然會提出他的期待來協商，但是我們的原則就是以國民健康、糧食安全為依據及原則來進行協商。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然嘛，所以我只問家禽和蛋製品這兩種，我就問這兩種就好了，家禽類就是如雞鴨等等，還有關於蛋的限制及許可，會在這個關稅談判當中去取消它嗎？"],["鄭副院長麗君：不了解委員的問題是什麼。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，關於您剛才講的雞鴨等家禽及蛋的部分，美國提出相關不同的品項，包括農林漁畜的品項都希望某個程度的開放，這是他們的期待，但我們也有我們要守護的部分，所以針對糧食安全的部分現在還在談。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我理解了。那我要問代表，針對這個部分陳部長剛剛已經解釋給你聽了，請問他們要我們開放的部分有沒有談及到？"],["鄭副院長麗君：農業部跟我們是一起的，我們各部會都是一起組成談判小組……"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們有沒有談及到這個部分？我們的態度是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是持續在溝通……"],["徐委員巧芯：那要不要開放許可？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我就跟委員回答……"],["徐委員巧芯：今天從早上到現在，你們每一個都說持續溝通，這樣根本就沒有回答到我們真正的問題……"],["陳部長駿季：因為還沒有定案……"],["鄭副院長麗君：因為還在談判中……"],["徐委員巧芯：所有東西都還沒有定案，那今天大家來質詢的意義在哪裡？我再問一個問題，如果開放零關稅的話，農業項目包不包含麵粉？有討論到麵粉零關稅這個問題嗎？美國開放麵粉零關稅的問題有沒有討論到？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，黃小玉的「小」就是指小麥的部分，就是有關麵粉的部分，現在就是零關稅，這一類產品進來國內的話，反而是降低國內的生產成本，對於國內的消費是有幫助的。"],["徐委員巧芯：麵粉，我單純問麵粉的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：對。因為整個小麥的部分有非常多的稅則號列，其中有一個稅則號列就是麵粉的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以你認為這個反而對我國的麵粉未來有幫助？"],["陳部長駿季：對，有一些關稅低的時候，對我們的生產成本降低是有幫助的。"],["鄭副院長麗君：有些大宗原物料本國也在進行採購……"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。"],["鄭副院長麗君：不過我想就相關項目因為很多委員都關心……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個沒有問題，剛剛你們已經回答了。"],["鄭副院長麗君：是不是我想幾秒鐘……"],["徐委員巧芯：再來，我想要問關於臺美關稅另外一個重點，就是衡平臺美的貿易順差，其中有一項有機會計入的當然是武器的採購，也就是軍購，編在國防預算裡面。我們的武器採購有兩種方式，一種是FMS的軍售，也就是政府對政府的；另外一種是DCS的商售，是向軍火商購買的。請問我們目前來講，平均兩種採購的比率是百分之多少對百分之多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分我們還要再……因為雙方的計算跟品項的設定……"],["徐委員巧芯：No！No！No！"],["卓院長榮泰：到現在我們沒有辦法在這個地方講出一個設定出來……"],["徐委員巧芯：No！No！No！國防部都知道。No！No！No！No！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個沒有辦法回答委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不要回答不出來就說不知道，就是7比3……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，這個……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是FMS是70%，DCS是30%，為什麼要這樣講？"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣的算法很籠統……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為外交部和國防部都曾經回答過類似的問題，所以你不要自己回答不出來，就說這個還要如何、如何，這樣很煩……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們現在沒有辦法就這個細項來跟委員做說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：這一點都不細項！我們的軍售是政府對政府，或者是向軍售商、軍火商購買，這哪裡細項了？好，我問一下，現在政府對政府的採購能不能夠計入臺美的貿易額之中？能不能夠去衡平它？"],["鄭副院長麗君：有關軍購的部分，我們尊重國防部的規劃，是由國防部在進行規劃的……"],["徐委員巧芯：外交部說不行啊！不能計在臺美貿易額當中。我的意思是說70%的軍購……"],["鄭副院長麗君：最基本的貿易順逆差……"],["徐委員巧芯：順逆差的衡平嘛！"],["鄭副院長麗君：基本的貿易順逆差的確……但是在談判當中，我方也向美方表達我國賴清德總統在2月的時候就已經有正式公開的承諾……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，但是我要講的是70%是走……"],["鄭副院長麗君：所以這部分就是我方自己的承諾。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道嘛。70%是走政府對政府的部分，這樣子我算出來大概是6,656億沒有辦法算進去去衡平這個差額，你不會不知道這件事吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不能這樣計算，這個不是這樣的計算標準。"],["徐委員巧芯：這是這樣去算的，這是外交部的政務次長陳明祺他說的，他說透過美國軍售（FMS）的管道不算在臺美貿易額當中，商售（DCS）才算。那我再問你一個問題，我們有沒有辦法向美國爭取FMS的軍售也可以列入貿易逆差？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有很多雙方的立場跟條件都互相在討論當中，所以我們不希望在這個時候透露我們的方式……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，你等於什麼都沒有回答嘛！你回答了老半天，一個問題都沒有回答，然後不知道的事情就在那邊講說什麼這還要回去看看，拜託，先把事情搞清楚再上臺，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：問也要問清楚再上來，謝謝！"],["徐委員巧芯：我問得非常清楚！是你不懂啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝徐委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adcc4f0e724c3d262bac0ac07f6ba1e1b09e2f170cf6863d8db0911e5930497b7265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"15:35:31 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我們有請院長跟副院長請卓院長還有曾副院長備詢議員好"},{"start":22.898,"end":48.421,"text":"在針對這個談判雖然還在進行當中但是有一些事情還是要跟國做個說明跟澄清三有三沒有三爭取823之後賴清德總統要求行政團隊要傾聽民意及時快速的進行社會溝通那本席就給院長跟副院長一個機會針對台美關稅的談判及時澄清及時回應"},{"start":50.542,"end":75.374,"text":"好 那請問政府院長在談判團隊到美國是不是有到該到的地方有見到該見的官員有提出保護產業的台灣原則呢這三個有 您要不要說明一下有的 謝謝因為委員的問題因為過去幾個月談判我們跟貿易代表署經過了四輪的實體談判"},{"start":76.434,"end":96.466,"text":"還有數次的線上會議也跟美國商務部有許多次的視訊跟會晤每一次談判我都有跟貿易代表署Gareer代表以及美國商務部部長London部長實質的會晤進行整體性的溝通也跟貿易代表署各個議題相關的專家團隊進行技術性的磋商"},{"start":97.186,"end":112.594,"text":"所以都有完整該談的該堅持的該建的都有那當然最後沒有達成協議我今天有速度的說明就是最後因為對等跟232我們要一併談這也是後續我們三個目標再降對等爭取不疊加以及232的優惠"},{"start":113.935,"end":131.494,"text":"這個在今天早上的時候三爭取的部分其實這個在卓議員長的回應其實都有打打都有說明好那再來針對這個不實的報導這個是不是鄭重的在向國人澄清一下談判團隊是沒有不當投資"},{"start":132.495,"end":151.756,"text":"沒有喪權入國沒有出賣台積電您要不要說明一下目前在232的部分有關於供應鏈合作跟相關的投資都還在討論當中所以我們也有說明說相關報導沒有跟我們經貿辦以及相關部會來查證"},{"start":153.658,"end":174.554,"text":"那我想在談判過程所有的條件是不是讓談判團隊有空間否則我們也很擔心任何的數字任何的這個都可能會影響談判的結果那您可不可以講個原則那所以我們的原則就是產業利益 國民健康 糧食安全但攸關供應鏈的合作必須立即互利互補"},{"start":175.875,"end":193.008,"text":"雙贏的這樣的一個戰略目標底下來談台美的供應鏈合作郭院長你可不可以針對這三個原則再說明一下什麼在投資美國的原則是什麼開放農產品的原則是什麼捍衛護國神山的原則又是什麼可不可以說明一下"},{"start":193.268,"end":216.482,"text":"我想美國他自然會要求各國希望開放市場不過我們一定在產業利益國民健康跟糧食安全的原則之上來跟美國進行協商那有關於供應鏈的合作的部分我想台灣的產業的確都在做國際佈局有些企業已經擴大對美投資但我們希望未來的雙方的供應鏈合作能夠互利互補共贏"},{"start":217.402,"end":238.554,"text":"能夠一起壯大產業那有關於這個台積電其實每個公司的投資決策政府基本上是尊重公司的決策那他們是跟客戶結合跟市場技術人才的結合我也必須跟委員來回溯一下其實台積電過去在美國在日本在德國等等各國的投資裡面我們看到"},{"start":238.914,"end":266.012,"text":"他們在國際佈局的同時台灣的半導體產業也在發展那麼2023年突破4.5兆2024年突破5.3兆我們也預期說今年還會再持續成長半導體產業所以我想院長也宣示非常清楚的原則跟流台灣 研發創新的核心的關鍵技術在台灣但是政府我們也需要產業有利的國際佈局好 本席擔心的是 來"},{"start":267.493,"end":292.509,"text":"對美貿易談判不能犧牲傳統產業要請中央拿出對策與決心剛才您的說明還是聚焦在半導體跟資通訊產業二三二條環比對等關稅影響更大民間常聽到的除了最惠國待遇的個位數字的關稅再加上20%的暫時性關稅也就是20加N受衝擊的有汽車零組件石化工具及紡織等產業"},{"start":293.51,"end":316.02,"text":"那對貿易這個影響較大的是232條款所造成的關稅美國總統當然基於他國家的安全這樣的232條款是可對進口產業採取限制措施的例如鋼鐵鋁金屬加工被課徵50%這已經是進行中的正在調查中的半導體晶片人員資通訊產業未來可能會被"},{"start":320.922,"end":344.858,"text":"課300%的關稅好那這樣可以顯然的行政院剛才副院長您的說明其實將半導體資通訊產業當作談判重點這個是已經顯而易見但本席擔憂的是其他產業是否會變成對美談判可犧牲的籌碼呢我想不會這個跟委員報告我們現在是就這個供應鏈合作232併談"},{"start":346.579,"end":369.937,"text":"有共識之後對等關稅就會再降因為我們看到像日韓歐盟拿到比較低的對等關稅在他們跟美國達成對等關稅的協議裡面都同時有爭取到232的優惠也就是雙方在投資跟供應鏈的合作所以我想美方整體看待整個兩國的貿易跟供應鏈的合作所以你的意思就是說絕對"},{"start":371.178,"end":384.054,"text":"所以您的意思是說絕對不會有產業被犧牲當然不會 我們要爭取對等再降就是因為對等關稅影響我們很多傳統產業所以這也是我們最重要的目標希望20%的對等關稅再降我就不用通過條例啦5900的條例"},{"start":387.959,"end":402.202,"text":"在經濟部下就有1100多億那包括農業的部分其實也聽你的講法是絕對不會被犧牲的那根本就不需要通過條例我幹嘛還提升到5900億呢除了那5900億的這個條例當中這個因應關稅條例當中所以我才讓你說明這個貿易一定有取有捨"},{"start":411.204,"end":436.078,"text":"那一定有受衝擊受衝擊我就認真的面對嘛你才讓我在目前讓我們尤其在高雄的部分我的傳統產業 扣件產業也好相關的這個工具相關的金屬扣件相關的產業當然會害怕農業會不會害怕 會呀所以我真的才說好那你要讓他們安心還是照你講的這些完全都不會有受傷害的產業"},{"start":438.52,"end":459.988,"text":"這個認要讓認清我會有哪些衝擊這才是重點啊好那今天的產值重要還是就業人口重要你這邊半導體跟資通信的產業啊這個大概有121萬人口他光是121萬人口就有6兆的產值而傳產我這邊找的傳產是鋼鐵產業上中下游金屬製造石化及相關產業包括農業這樣子受衝擊的產業"},{"start":462.689,"end":471.594,"text":"大概250萬人好這個是這個表格貿易談判需要捨得交換產值較高的科技產業從業人口只有121萬人產值較低的製造業與農業大概250萬人好目前我們談判內容是不是會為了121萬人的這個高科技產業"},{"start":485.962,"end":511.902,"text":"而犧牲了250萬人的這樣的船廠政府有沒有任何的措施讓今天受創級的250萬人受到輔導成為明天的贏家呢好那在財團布局海外的時候船廠是困守孤島嗎既然製造業外移是個趨勢行政院有何這個策略來確保本土研發與製造繼續"},{"start":514.845,"end":533.258,"text":"呃這個本呃與製造呃這本土的研發跟製造呢能夠繼續的保持優勢呢好這邊要提到的我船長會面到三大壓力海外布局是布局是不可能像科技產業這麼容易的第一個我們的船長是缺乏國際化的人才第二個他的資金不夠充裕"},{"start":533.658,"end":556.135,"text":"第三 他受天災匯率關稅三重打擊 已經無能力來轉型以我北高雄傳產來講 我們就流傳一句話沒單啦 等死啦 接單啦 找死啦現在有人房子面臨把拍有人不知道如何對於之前的員工來交代政府是不能坐等資本來申請補助"},{"start":558.197,"end":586.29,"text":"而是要主動下鄉伸出援手搶救養活最多功能的產業好那另外我也會這包括農業的部分美國是農業大國那這個貿易談判當然要達到可能會開放畜牧糧食等那當然這個會有助於降低國內的物價但是農業不只有產糧食自主率的戰略考量還要承載台灣文化記憶與庶民飲食的習慣"},{"start":587.31,"end":594.522,"text":"所以這邊也提醒政府應該要重視就算開放市場也要透過冷鏈物流建設輔導產品的認證來協助農友提升競爭力好在這邊"},{"start":599.787,"end":616.347,"text":"我具體要求兩項第一個受到關稅與匯率雙重影響的南部產業區中央派出政務委員或等同的同等的首長於高雄設置跨部會的單一窗口會同地方政府組成下鄉的服務團主動服務"},{"start":618.65,"end":633.972,"text":"主動服務主動服務我講三次傳統產業跟這個農業的主動服務對接中央補助資源提供融資利息的利率的補貼這一點是重點頭要提供融資利率的補貼"},{"start":635.033,"end":656.015,"text":"那對於這個設備購置的獎勵海外參展的輔導等那第二個要求是對於未來可能受到開放美國進口衝擊的農業對於我高雄的岐山美濃或周遭的地區以工建計畫興建冷鏈物流倉儲中心協助我高雄的東九區北屏東台南三區的"},{"start":656.916,"end":670.656,"text":"農友協調平衡產銷並請農業部跟經濟部合作規劃特色農產出國參展以分散市場的策略來抵消美國關稅針對這兩項的具體要求院長你怎麼看"},{"start":671.769,"end":685.259,"text":"我覺得我們如果設單立窗口是一個很好的建議但是如果需要的話不限於設在哪裡我期待我們現在這次中央政府總共預算的追加預算今年追加預算如果能夠得到大院支持我們試圖把"},{"start":687.32,"end":709.361,"text":"中部南部的各地的我們的服務中心把它強化讓各部會去也增加一些專門針對目前關稅受衝擊業務所需要的部會人員去增加這個服務院長你為什麼特別談到跨部會單一窗口現在有啦經濟部有所謂的下鄉服務團是有但是你就是沒有速發部在裡面"},{"start":709.941,"end":725.448,"text":"好那包括相關的啊這個部會啊他們就是會推來推去只有經濟部有那其他部會沒有加入好這是第一個那第二個呢我們確實也辦了很多說明會那說明聽完完後啊業者還是不傻傻"},{"start":725.908,"end":740.521,"text":"對我中南部業者的這個資源除了資訊不能到位之外通常第一個我們就是不知道有這個價位第二 我不會寫第三個寫了也不會過這差不多是通常中南部在針對我中央政府計畫當中的"},{"start":742.304,"end":760.899,"text":"窘境所以我才說主動服務不是只辦了辦了這個說明會你應該到家到府到場的主動告訴人家主動的為他量身地做每一個專屬的他的一個計畫書進而幫他盤點這可能會要花上半年一年的時間就一家"},{"start":761.619,"end":785.16,"text":"之後才這個計畫書才是符合他這個的他的需求的來再跟我們申請因為你們也結合了64個法人講得很好聽啊但是這樣的一個單一窗口我講的單一窗口除了法人的整合包括主動出席到場到戶到家的主動輔導量身地座而不是辦了說明會之後沒事了"},{"start":786.162,"end":808.468,"text":"產業的服務跟支持經濟部為主我們請市長來說明跟委員報告8月7號我們有將一些計畫用以晚計集的方式預算先挪用來做產業的輔導的部分目前來講其實我們海外訂單的補助已經有187家提出申請"},{"start":809.288,"end":827.796,"text":"市長你最好針對我的問題你的說明會你有出席的沒出席的我也參加了好幾場我現在點出的就是問題所以為什麼現在的我們中小企業在南部當中並沒有感受到政府的我一直強調我希望我們的政府是有溫度跟靠山的"},{"start":828.476,"end":845.243,"text":"但是是沒有的看得到吃不到了跟委員報告我們都我們都可以來做專案的協助我們在這個高雄地區的話我們有一些法人他就會直接到我們那個扣件扣件的這個我把問題點給你了那如果呢你沒有在"},{"start":845.983,"end":864.071,"text":"到場到戶到家的主動的而只是純粹的辦說明會而且你的說明會是有限的喔你針對工業區包括一些那個一些協會一些工協會辦完之後就沒有了現在的狀況就是這樣所以這些還是不會寫"},{"start":865.892,"end":880.143,"text":"還是不會寫第一個知不知道 有沒有全面明顯知道也沒有我要求他們的單據要用選擇勾選題不要用寫一大堆的單數不要超過兩三張能夠讓大家能夠盡快填好"},{"start":880.783,"end":883.185,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們在第一期的冷鏈計畫其實已經"},{"start":908.724,"end":927.217,"text":"設計了全台灣的區域物流然後我們第二期的冷鏈計畫也是從今年開始所以在特別在高雄的地方我們也在評估一些適合做區域物流中心的部分去做一個這樣的一個興建我們希望說興建一個台灣的整合冷鏈物流網這第一個第二個部分就是說有關於好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（15時35分）我們有請院長跟副院長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有鄭副院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：雖然這個談判還在進行當中，但有一些事情還是要跟國人做個說明跟澄清，「3有3沒有3爭取」，823之後，賴清德總統要求行政團隊要傾聽民意，即時快速進行社會溝通。那本席就給院長跟副院長一個機會，針對臺美關稅的談判即時澄清、即時回應、即時溝通。","請問鄭副院長，談判團隊到美國是不是有到該到的地方？有見到該見的官員？有提出保護產業的臺灣原則？這「3有」您要不要說明一下？"],["鄭副院長麗君：有的，謝謝，針對委員的問題，因為過去幾個月的談判，我們跟貿易代表署經過了四輪實體談判還有數次的線上會議，也跟美國商務部有許多次視訊跟會晤。每一次談判，我都有跟貿易代表署Greer代表以及美國商務部  Lutnick部長實質會晤，進行整體性的溝通，也跟貿易代表署各個議題相關的專家團隊進行技術性磋商。"],["林委員岱樺：好。"],["鄭副院長麗君：所以都有完整，該談的、該堅持的、該見的都有。當然最後沒有達成協議，我今天有數度說明，就是最後因為對等跟232我們要一併談，這也是後續我們的三個目標，再降對等、爭取不疊加以及232的優惠一併討論。"],["林委員岱樺：今天早上「3爭取」的部分，這個在卓院長的回應中其實都有談到……"],["鄭副院長麗君：對。"],["林委員岱樺：都有說明。","再來，針對不實的報導，是不是鄭重地再向國人澄清一下談判團隊是沒有不當投資、沒有喪權辱國、沒有出賣台積電，您要不要說明一下呢？"],["鄭副院長麗君：目前在232的部分，有關於供應鏈合作跟相關的投資都還在討論當中，所以我們也有說明，相關報導沒有跟我們經貿辦以及相關部會查證，我想談判過程所有的條件，是不是讓談判團隊有空間？否則我們也很擔心任何的數字、任何的……這個都可能會影響談判的結果，因為這是一個變動的過程。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那你可不可以再講個原則……"],["鄭副院長麗君：所以我們的原則就是產業利益、國民健康、糧食安全，但攸關供應鏈的合作，必須立基於互利、互補、雙贏這樣一個戰略目標底下來談臺美的供應鏈合作。"],["林委員岱樺：好，副院長，你可不可以針對這三個原則再說明一下，投資美國的原則是什麼？開放農產品的原則是什麼？捍衛護國神山的原則又是什麼？可不可以說明一下？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想美國自然會要求希望各國開放市場，不過我們一定在產業利益、國民健康跟糧食安全的原則之上跟美國進行協商。","有關於供應鏈的合作部分，我想臺灣的產業的確也都在做國際布局，有些企業已經擴大對美投資，但我們希望未來雙方的供應鏈合作能夠互利、互補、共贏，能夠一起壯大產業。","有關於台積電，其實每個公司的投資決策，政府基本上是尊重公司的決策，他們是跟客戶結合、跟市場技術、人才的結合。我也必須來跟委員回溯一下，其實台積電過去在美國、在日本、在德國等等各國的投資裡面，我們看到他們在國際布局的同時，臺灣的半導體產業也在發展，2023年突破4.5兆、2024年突破5.3兆，我們也預期今年半導體產業還會再持續成長。所以我想院長也宣示非常清楚的原則，根留臺灣，研發創新的核心關鍵技術在臺灣，但是政府也協助產業有利的國際布局。"],["林委員岱樺：你再怎麼講都講到資通訊跟半導體產業！本席擔心的是，對美貿易談判不能犧牲傳統產業，要請中央拿出對策與決心。剛才您的說明還是聚焦在半導體和資通訊產業，232條款比對等關稅影響更大。民間常聽到的除了最惠國待遇個位數關稅再加上20%的暫時性關稅，也就是「20+N」，受衝擊的有汽車、零組件、石化、工具機、紡織等產業，對貿易影響較大的是232條款所造成的關稅。美國總統當然基於他的國家安全，這樣的232條款是可對進口產品採取限制措施的，例如鋼鐵、鋁、金屬加工被課徵50%，這已經是進行中的，正在調查中的半導體、晶片、能源、資通訊產業未來可能會被課300%的關稅。副院長剛才的說明將半導體、資通訊產業當做談判重點已經顯而易見，但本席擔憂的是，其他產業是否會變成對美談判可犧牲的籌碼？"],["鄭副院長麗君：我想不會！跟委員報告，我們現在是就供應鏈合作和232併談，有共識之後，對等關稅就會再降。因為我們看到像日、韓、歐盟拿到比較低的對等關稅，在他們跟美國達成的對等關稅協議裡面，都同時有爭取到232的優惠，也就是雙方在投資和供應鏈的合作，所以我想美方是整體看待兩國貿易和供應鏈的合作，因此我們希望在未來……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你的意思是絕對不會有產業被犧牲？"],["鄭副院長麗君：當然不會！我們要爭取對等關稅再降，就是因為對等關稅影響我們很多傳統產業，所以這也是我們最重要的目標，希望20%的對等關稅再降。"],["林委員岱樺：那我就不需要通過條例了啊！5,900億的條例在經濟部下就有一千一百多億，包括農業的部分，聽你的講法是絕對不會被犧牲的，所以根本就不需要通過條例，幹嘛還提升到5,900億呢？那5,900億當中，除了因應關稅……","所以我才讓你說明。貿易一定有取有捨，一定有受衝擊的，受衝擊的我們就認真地面對嘛！尤其在高雄的部分，我們的傳統產業扣件產業也好，相關的工具、相關的金屬扣件等等，相關的產業當然會害怕啊！農業會不會害怕？會啊！所以我才說，好，你要讓他們安心！還是像你講的，完全不會有受傷害的產業？要認清會有哪些衝擊，這才是重點啦！","好，今天是產值重要還是就業人口重要？半導體和資通訊產業大概有121萬就業人口，光是這121萬就業人口，就有6兆的產值，而傳統產業包括鋼鐵產業上中下游、金屬製造、石化及相關產業，加上農業，這些受衝擊產業的就業人口大概有250萬人。貿易談判需要捨得交換，產值較高的科技產業從業人口只有121萬人，產值較低的製造業與農業大概有250萬人，請問目前我們的談判內容是不是會為了121萬人的高科技產業，而犧牲250萬人的傳產？政府有沒有任何措施讓今天受衝擊的250萬人接受輔導，成為明天的贏家呢？財團布局海外的時候，傳產是困守孤島嗎？既然製造業外移是一個趨勢，行政院有何策略確保本土研發與製造能夠繼續保持優勢？","本席要提到傳統產業面臨三大壓力，所以海外布局不可能像科技產業那麼容易，第一個，我們的傳產缺乏國際化人才，第二個，它的資金不夠充裕；第三，它受天災、匯率、關稅三重打擊，已經沒有能力轉型。以北高雄的傳產來講，我們就流傳一句話：沒單等死、接單找死。現在有人房子面臨法拍、有人不知道如何對資遣員工交代。政府不能坐等紙本申請補助，而是要主動下鄉，伸出援手，搶救養活最多工人的產業。","另外，包括農業的部分，美國是農業大國，貿易談判要達成，可能會開放畜牧、糧食等農產品，當然這會有助於降低國內的物價，但是農業不只有糧食自給率的戰略考量，還要承載臺灣文化記憶與庶民飲食習慣。所以這邊也提醒政府應該要重視，就算開放市場，也要透過冷鏈物流建設、輔導產品的認證，協助農友提升競爭力。","在這邊我具體要求兩項，第一個，受到關稅與匯率雙重影響的南部產業，請中央派出政務委員或同等首長，於高雄設置「跨部會專一窗口」，會同地方政府組成下鄉的服務團，主動服務、主動服務、主動服務，我講三次。傳統產業跟農業的主動服務，對接中央補助資源，提供融資利率的補貼，這一點是重點，首要是提供融資利率的補貼，以及對於設備購置的獎勵、海外參展的輔導等。第二個要求是，對於未來可能受到開放美國進口衝擊的農業，對於我高雄的旗山、美濃或周遭的地區，以公建計畫興建冷鏈物流倉儲中心，協助我高雄的東九區、北屏東、臺南三區的農友，協調平衡產銷，並請農業部跟經濟部合作，規劃特色農產出國參展，以分散市場的策略來抵銷美國關稅影響。針對這兩項的具體要求，院長您怎麼看呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得我們如果設單一窗口是一個很好的建議，但是如果需要，不限於設在哪裡，我期待這次中央政府總預算的追加預算，今年的追加預算如果能夠得到大院支持，我們試圖把北部、中部、南部等各地服務中心強化，讓各部會去，也增加一些專門針對目前關稅受衝擊業務所需要的部會人員，去增加這個服務。"],["林委員岱樺：院長，我為什麼特別談到跨部會單一窗口，現在經濟部有所謂的下鄉服務團，是有的，但是就是沒有數發部在裡面，包括相關的部會，他們就是會推來推去，只有經濟部有，其他部會沒有加入，這是第一個。第二個，我們確實也辦了很多說明會，說明會聽完之後，業者還是「霧煞煞」，對我中南部業者的資源，除了資訊不能到位之外，通常第一個，我們就是不知道有這個計畫；第二個，我不會寫；第三個，寫了也不會過。這差不多通常是中南部在針對中央政府計畫當中的窘境，所以我才說「主動服務」，不是只辦了說明會，你應該到家、到府、到場主動告訴人家，主動為他量身定做每一個專屬他的計畫書，進而幫他盤點，就一家可能都快要花上半年、一年的時間，之後這個計畫書才是符合他的需求，再來跟我們申請，因為你們也結合了64個法人，講得很好聽，但是這樣的一個單一窗口，我講的單一窗口，除了法人的整合，包括主動出席、到場、到戶、到家的主動輔導，量身定做，而不是辦了說明會之後就沒事了。"],["卓院長榮泰：產業的服務跟支持是以經濟部為主，我們請次長說明。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，8月7日我們有將一些計畫用移緩濟急的方式，預算先挪用來做產業的輔導，目前來講，其實我們海外訂單的補助已經有187家提出申請，而且研發補助也有……"],["林委員岱樺：次長，你最好針對我的問題，你的說明會中，你有出席的、沒出席的，我也參加了好幾場，我現在點出的就是問題，所以為什麼現在我們在南部的中小企業是沒有感受到政府的，我一直強調，我希望我們的政府是有溫度跟靠山的，但是是沒有的，看得到吃不到。"],["何次長晉滄：有，跟委員報告，我們都可以來做專案協助。"],["鄭副院長麗君：現在都在受理。"],["何次長晉滄：我們在高雄地區，有一些法人就會直接到我們扣件的公會……"],["林委員岱樺：好，我把問題點給你了，如果你沒有到場、到戶、到家主動的協助，而只是純粹的辦說明會，而且你的說明會是有限的，你是針對工業區包括一些協會、一些公協會，辦完之後就沒有了，現在的狀況就是這樣，所以這些還是不會寫，還是不會寫，第一個，有沒有全面性知道，也沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們來檢討，我要求他們的單據要用選擇的、用勾選題，不要用寫一大堆的，單數不要超過兩、三張，讓大家能夠儘快填好，這個都一定要徹底做到。"],["林委員岱樺：好，院長，你做了指示，也要主動到任何的百工百業，包括服務業、農企業一樣。","再來，針對以公建計畫興建冷鏈物流倉儲中心，協助我高雄東九區，包括旗山、美濃等地區，以及在他們出國參展上給予支持，部長，你怎麼說呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們第一期的冷鏈計畫，其實已經設計了全臺灣的區域物流，然後第二期的冷鏈計畫也是從今年開始，特別在高雄地區，我們也在評估一些適合做區域物流中心的地方去做這樣的興建，我們希望興建一個臺灣的整個冷鏈物流網，這是第一個。第二個，有關於農產品參展的部分，已經列在我們的支持方案裡去做了。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長跟副院長。","報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後，繼續進行質詢。","現在休息。","休息（15時51分）","繼續開會（16時2分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":158,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["江啟臣","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","許宇甄","林倩綺","陳昭姿","王定宇","黃珊珊","羅美玲","鍾佳濱","羅智強","陳冠廷","高金素梅","李坤城","黃健豪","陳亭妃","賴士葆","林岱樺","徐巧芯","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","牛煦庭"],"page_start":45,"meetingDate":["2025-08-25"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00003","1147401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長提出「臺美關稅談判之進程、方針、原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估」專案\n報告並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00003"}}},{"id":"163597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/40cf74fb6f804adc5778f0b0f5cbb4a0c0ac07f6ba1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學委員 林委員 三位委員好卓院長好經過了整整將近一年的時間整個國家空轉"},{"start":61.24,"end":89.551,"text":"不斷地衝刺從總統 院長 部會首長執政者的國會議員到執政者的所有的宣傳工具一連當中不斷地攻擊在野黨所謂中共同路人 所謂共匪立委讓台灣不斷地撕裂 撕裂再撕裂"},{"start":90.558,"end":119.709,"text":"要弱化在野監督的力量在昨天在前天兩天前人民已經做出了一個完整的一個決定左院長對於報載所有媒體報導去年1月13號總統大選結束以後1月14號賴總統跟您還有柯總召決定一年後"},{"start":120.458,"end":141.669,"text":"要推動大罷免希望能夠一黨專政然後現在終於所有的事情人民已經很清楚的告訴執政者並沒有這樣的事情哪一件事情沒有這樣的事1月13號 1月14號之後"},{"start":144.922,"end":170.26,"text":"總統或是跟任何人要推動大罷免這件事情並沒有這樣的事情但是當時媒體報宅的時候你們並沒有否認啊當時說的是對立法會跟兩院互動關係當時就應該要像現在告訴全國國人沒有這件事嘛對不對那當時為什麼不來否認好沒有關係現在講也可以"},{"start":171.991,"end":199.683,"text":"但是對於整個國家的空轉包括不斷的誣陷攻擊 再也立委現在人民已經做出了決定不管是有民進黨在台灣的獨裁專政亦或者是民進黨的國家能源政策人民已經給出了很清楚的答案對於內閣是不是要總辭"},{"start":201.175,"end":218.155,"text":"所以你講什麼看法總統已經說過7月26號之後我已經數次跟總統談論到這樣的話題我認為不是因為罷免不罷免的問題而是整個在政策推動上"},{"start":219.847,"end":246.272,"text":"過去那段時間的不順暢跟未來有沒有辦法順暢的推動這才是行政院該檢討的行政院不只是檢討過去那一段是未來我們要做什麼責任政治在哪裡責任政治在哪裡我希望總統 如您剛剛所說過去政策推動不順利政策推動不順利包括政策是否適當"},{"start":248.322,"end":276.314,"text":"第二個是否有完整的溝通第三個是否獨裁專段這三件事情你認為你做到了嗎第一個沒有獨裁專段第二個溝通必須加強第三個政策推動不順利是因為有些政策 行政院因為違憲之前我們有示愛難行再野黨"},{"start":277.819,"end":303.761,"text":"什麼時候溝通過了我們曾經到行政院裡面來談過話幾次至少有兩次以上所以卓院長在這一年多當中跟在野黨的溝通是兩次行政院透過執政黨團跟在野黨團的溝通那是每天都在進行的過去一年我們只衝刺看到"},{"start":304.81,"end":333.116,"text":"執政黨團不斷的造謠不斷的申飛有什麼時候來溝通每個黨團都很努力 不斷的攻擊不斷的對在野立委的監督不斷用各種不堪入耳的方式的攻擊就光講今天的專案報告就好了4月2號發生美國川普總統對全世界"},{"start":334.11,"end":360.648,"text":"無差別的要求加碼關稅對全世界的經濟衝擊國民黨團立刻要求 沈院長要到院報告到今天幾個月了 四個月 五個月執政黨團還在這裡護航 您來這裡報告多少次"},{"start":361.547,"end":390.272,"text":"我們當時就希望你來說清楚講明白我們得到的答案是什麼執政黨民進黨團堅決反對我們要再一次的表達不管心不甘情不願也好主動跟國人說明也好卓院長本來就應該在第一時間到國會來跟國人做一個報告即便是有很多內容是不能透露的"},{"start":391.101,"end":419.945,"text":"我們都可以尊重那要通過溝通大家了解以後相忍為國而不是在發生這麼大的事情以後五個月後才來報告所以總院長您對這一次全國國人民意就誠如賴總統所說更大的民意最新的民意已經出來了總院長"},{"start":422.178,"end":426.966,"text":"內閣要不要總辭內閣的重要人士會做"},{"start":428.464,"end":456.488,"text":"主要人事的一個調整那我跟總統提出過必須負起政治責任總統認為在這個時候局勢要穩定下來很多已經在推動的事情以及明年總預算的編列都要同時進行那其實我認為在8月23總預算也已經編列完成了全國性的投票秩序良好那應該是一個時間但總統還是認為持續把工作做下去在總統的整個治國的理念之下他認為是最好"},{"start":457.108,"end":485.848,"text":"那麼我在這個原則底下我們就展開主要人事的調整第一個這一年多的執政以及國會以及國家以及台灣整體的內耗空轉已經非常的清楚人民已經做了這樣的一個決定卓院長本席不是針對您這是一個民主國家最基本的風骨"},{"start":488.271,"end":503.629,"text":"在禮拜六晚上 卓院長就必須公開開記者會來表示內閣總詞這是最基本的至於總統要不要留要不要公開留什麼理由來留 我們都尊重"},{"start":504.963,"end":529.991,"text":"但是你最基本的表態 必須讓全國國人看見這不是表態的問題 我已經向總統提出了這不是表態不表態 這是真實認為 責任正是國家不是您跟賴總統兩個人的國家是全民的 態度必須要出來我們政治的考量跟政治的互動 這是一種選擇世界所有媒體的報導"},{"start":531.512,"end":560.278,"text":"跟我們最寧靜的關係也最深厚的日本獨賣新聞對於企圖罷免在野黨台灣人民否決 再來東洋經濟 台灣政治今天一陷入嚴重的兩極化這是誰造成的沒有溝通 從來不溝通 霸道"},{"start":561.906,"end":591.173,"text":"就是執政者的標章再來學者日本小立委員表示賴清德也失去日本媒體的信任從獨賣到朝日都不樂見罷免對台灣不樂觀好 再來美國外交政策期刊呼籲川普"},{"start":591.906,"end":621.153,"text":"要約束台灣再來BBC針對執政黨說所謂在野立委是親中的大罷免如何撕裂了台灣再來黃柏台灣選民否決這次的大罷免卓院長"},{"start":624.4,"end":641.989,"text":"北溪講過很多次在這裡再一次的呼籲您身為國家的葛魁一年多來有多少的衝突但是你只有兩次兩次的溝通"},{"start":645.899,"end":666.789,"text":"不要為難國會議長禮拜六本席看到賴總統對全國人民以及媒體的發問跟回答本席非常的意外"},{"start":669.382,"end":693.673,"text":"當民進黨立法院黨團再三的要求韓國瑜韓院長議事要中立不得介入任何的黨務賴總統竟然說要請卓院長跟韓院長溝通不要又把責任推到韓院長身上來包括我跟韓院長溝通不是黨務啊是兩院互動模式是必須"},{"start":695.37,"end":723.236,"text":"必須讓各個政黨各個黨團包括貴黨黨團在內有很多人都有不同對您的施政很多人都有不同的意見我虛心接受不是你接不接受的問題你要去溝通的問題我們全面改進但是我有一句話今天我們在這裡對話應該是針對今天的主題如果是韓院長在的話大概會制止你這樣的發言希望要盡快的來溝通"},{"start":724.929,"end":744.116,"text":"如果韓院長再會制止你今天的發言為什麼不針對今天的主題啊這都是整個國家的互動最關鍵的一環卓院長啊 不要再閃避問題我沒有聽到任何問題 今天的主題"},{"start":746.276,"end":772.297,"text":"剛剛講的都是台灣現在發生最嚴重的問題我們都了解 怎麼不是問題呢各位怎麼可以經過民意 用婆鳥心來嬰兒盜鈴呢經過民意我們都充分了解我們也面對民意的改變了解了你的做法是什麼嘛所以本席剛剛在這裡苦口婆心請卓院長不要再把責任推到國會議長身上"},{"start":773.646,"end":799.201,"text":"你們對各黨的溝通是什麼賴總統到現在為止既沒有跟國民黨主席民眾黨主席坐下來談行政院長也沒有針對每一件國家重大的事情跟在野黨保持暢旺的溝通本席希望如果正如你所說"},{"start":801.758,"end":829.694,"text":"蔡總統堅持要留任 左院長我們尊重但未來的溝通請拿出誠意用常態性的溝通對每一件事情能夠有一個清楚 完整讓在野黨能夠了解大家可以共體時間但是我們不能瞎子摸象內容完全不了解我們要怎麼樣來支持"},{"start":831.069,"end":857.79,"text":"要更何況要怎麼樣來背書我希望卓榮泰卓院長希望你改變過去一年多的戰鬥模式現在必須真正成為中華民國的行政院長而不是民進黨的行政院長我們曾經說過要做四項調整調整國家財政體質調整施政的先後順序調整兩院互動以及調整內閣人事我們逐步展開"},{"start":859.605,"end":886.979,"text":"本黨團拭目以待今天不是個人的施政總諮詢今天是專案報告我們三位包括徐議貞委員 林倩琦委員都是代表國民黨團來就教於卓榮泰卓院長好我們看一下這個"},{"start":891.521,"end":915.402,"text":"昨天的聯合報跟中國時報報頭我們就不再提這個事情本期現在要請教一下現在對美關稅地板是20%還要加上WTO相關的這些稅率"},{"start":917.472,"end":944.997,"text":"再加上台幣升值大幅升值對外銷產業的重創基本上來說這個就是莫衷一事在野黨完全看不懂執政者今天的談判如此的失敗日本 韓國 台灣最大的競爭者都是15%的上限"},{"start":945.964,"end":963.952,"text":"天花板因為他們已經達成協議我們20%是地板我們還在努力爭取更合理的稅率同一個時間從4月2號開始各國開始跟美國溝通我們並不是在不是在同一個起跑點上大家都在同一個時間面對這個問題"},{"start":967.099,"end":985.172,"text":"如果日本韓國已經達成協議台灣還沒有達成協議這個基本上就已經失職就已經失職因為新版關稅已經實施已經實施由不得時不待人"},{"start":986.95,"end":1014.731,"text":"台灣產業已經面對這樣的衝擊我剛剛已經說過了因為我們的密差比較大而且232對我們的產業是比較影響多我們居於這樣關鍵性的領先地位這兩個部分都是像現在請告訴國人什麼時候可以談好談判是雙方2月1號到現在已經快一個月了我們國內的產業已經忍受到將近一個月的高關稅"},{"start":1016.447,"end":1045.359,"text":"對產業支持我們先用以緩計及方式在特別預算出來之前我們用以緩計及的方式先向 進行產業的支持 您所提出的881加51 931立法院也支持啊現在但是我們不能永無止境的等待我們尊重 左院長你的說法 感謝很多都在談判過程中都還在保密好"},{"start":1047.783,"end":1071.798,"text":"請問什麼時候可以Data是什麼時候什麼時候可以做最後的確認要不要請談判代表來說一下現在努力的進行你不瞭解狀況嗎我當然知道 談判代表就請你直接回答本席好不好我跟委員來做一個報告從8月1號以來我們跟美方有繼續進行三次的視訊會議請教先回答本席的問題什麼時候可以談完"},{"start":1072.318,"end":1087.321,"text":"我們當然希望越快越好那談判取決於希望是代表什麼意思回溯我們在8月1號前沒能達成協議最重要的一個因素就是因為我國出口七成是半導體及ICT尤其占逆差的九成"},{"start":1087.822,"end":1112.983,"text":"那美方也表示這個項目在美方232的調查底下那也連動美方232關稅的政策方向所以台美需要一些時間持續就對等跟232一併對談 一併並談所以我們持續在這個談判中那我們希望越快越好那美國財政部長所以今天到立法院正式專案報告是給"},{"start":1117.011,"end":1141.154,"text":"有夢最美 希望相隨希望 希望產業都絕望了 你們還在希望我們全力以赴 越快越好那關於產業現在受到的衝擊我家什麼叫全力以赴你把外交辭令帶到這裡來人民快要活不下去了報告委員 我們上禮拜五還在視訊會議"},{"start":1142.976,"end":1159.525,"text":"這本來就該做的事情 不需告訴我嘛你們本來就該做的事情嘛 你說 談判什麼時候進行上禮拜五還在談 表示這個談判一直在進行當中有需要 談判代表會指揮美國去談判為什麼有一個這麼無能的政府嘛什麼叫希望嘛"},{"start":1161.134,"end":1176.904,"text":"不是 我們現在報告委員已經在進行的事情談判小組我們正在全力的進行談判當中那由於台美雙方在232的議題有關半導體跟ICT產業是相對於其他國家232的項目相對於複雜跟變動性我們全力佈陣在談判經濟努力當中如果你帶來的只是希望兩個字 請回"},{"start":1189.912,"end":1194.737,"text":"不會 我們會用結果來證明我們的努力主席 兩位請回"},{"start":1195.97,"end":1219.216,"text":"告訴我們就是希望 兩位請回我們全力以赴 繼續努力爭取最好的結果 爭取更好的合理的稅率我們也必須要向大院做以上的報告報告委員 我剛剛說過國際談判難上加難最後的時間就是雙方條件多你們能力不足嘛 講白了就是這樣嘛那本席在這裡"},{"start":1223.12,"end":1239.169,"text":"一定要很強烈的讓院長了解台積電我們一分鐘來回顧一下中華民國政府在1974年民國63年當時的經濟部長我再強調一次經濟部長孫運璿"},{"start":1247.282,"end":1268.383,"text":"帶了七人小組在豆漿店裡面開啟了台灣的科技奇蹟在65年跟RCA簽約派了一批優秀的科技人才到美國去學習 再來"},{"start":1271.155,"end":1299.518,"text":"在民國74年成立了台灣集體電路公司台積電並邀請張忠謀來擔任負責人卓院長這是我們台灣的手心我們的心骨肉台灣人民的心骨肉我們的政府跟全民所培養出來的"},{"start":1300.376,"end":1316.288,"text":"給了各種的優惠前面來留住人才這個台積電在民國76年1987年台積電公司成立請問一下周院長當時的李國鼎經濟部長跟現在的經濟部長"},{"start":1330.279,"end":1351.267,"text":"剛剛請辭的郭志輝面臨這4月2號到現在為止四五六七八五個月請問台積電當時去美國跟美國總統川普在白宮開記者會的時候郭志輝部長說他不知道"},{"start":1355.814,"end":1361.78,"text":"那再請問我們所有對美關稅談判過程當中經濟部長有沒有參與"},{"start":1363.598,"end":1387.097,"text":"我們提出的對產業支持都是經濟部所提出來的我們對工業的出口進口對產業支持經濟部我說對美談判他有沒有參加嗎回答我問題有這麼困難嗎我們對工業出口的稅率 進口的稅率等等我們都是經濟部所提出來我們用這個稅率去進行談判的怎麼會沒有談判呢那你就告訴本席他有參與就好了嘛"},{"start":1388.827,"end":1391.673,"text":"對不對 當時的經濟部長是製造台灣奇蹟的人現在的經濟部長 一問三不知"},{"start":1398.322,"end":1412.289,"text":"報告委員 每個時代的經濟部長都要面對不同的挑戰現在時代的經濟部長比較不重要了可以不用參與就對了當時一個李國鼎 孫運璿可以造成台灣的奇蹟我到工業區的時候我都會感謝當時李國鼎當時孫運璿院長 李國鼎部長當時帶領那批年輕工程師締造台灣目前的高科技產業我都這樣講過"},{"start":1426.415,"end":1449.125,"text":"六時代的經濟部長不一樣啦 本席瞭解現在是廁所裡的花瓶啦完全不是核心 也沒有參與任何所以第一時間所有全國媒體問他他都不知道這個事情再問他說川普說要投資台積電要投資兩千億 三千億他說這是假新聞這就是現在執政團隊的經濟部長淪為國際的笑話"},{"start":1453.479,"end":1480.749,"text":"我對郭志輝部長抱屈啊完全排除在外的核心 排除核心之外的人並非如此何必讓他當經濟部長委員你這樣子講真的我也要替他抱屈 並非如此再來 本席請教一下國家安全法第三條國家的核心關鍵技術之營業秘密台積電是不是是不是"},{"start":1481.753,"end":1508.885,"text":"是不是適用國安法第三條是國家核心關鍵技術台積電不僅對國家重要對世界重要它當然是國家的核心關鍵技術好 謝謝所以再來我們公司對外投資處理辦法第六條不與核准影響國家安全對國家經濟發展有不利的影響"},{"start":1510.82,"end":1539.411,"text":"請問台積電是不是對外投資如果核心技術移走是不是對台灣會造成相當大的影響下一頁不管依照國家安全法第三條的第一項第三項還是公司國外投資處理辦法第五條請問一下"},{"start":1541.243,"end":1545.262,"text":"卓院長台積電什麼時候要送神"},{"start":1546.735,"end":1574.509,"text":"台積電要送審由台積電台積公司他們提出來要送審的時間由他們提出但是我們依據的就是包括委員剛剛所說的原則在內我們希望他在台灣搶但他經過他審慎頭思考要世界佈局的時候只要合乎我們的條件政府並不會阻擋但是我們要求跟留台灣我們要求台灣加一我們台灣要求關鍵技術要留在台灣核心的研發留在台灣這個原則不變"},{"start":1575.789,"end":1603.587,"text":"對美有N-1嗎有N-1嗎我們對台灣N-1在台灣要外國投資的台灣不能減少對國外投資有沒有N-1美國的政策我不瞭解美國是不是N-1台灣對外的投資生產技術關鍵要關鍵技術有沒有前一代出去投資有沒有台灣一定要保持最領先的位置所以對外國的投資都不應該把核心技術往外所以對外投資"},{"start":1605.063,"end":1634.148,"text":"有確實執行恩檢運嗎在審查投審的審查過程當中一定是嚴格要求這關係到台灣的經濟命脈跟國家販產跟國家安全台灣日本美國更不要說三座晶圓廠兩座先進封裝廠主要研發團隊都搬過去來我們看一下台日韓關稅對美投資承諾的比較我們看一下日本"},{"start":1635.06,"end":1663.154,"text":"五千五百億美金韓國三千五百億美金台灣大概多少億美金雙方都有提出一些方案還沒有達成協議所以現在沒有做任何實質承諾卓院長 您還是用你的老辦法再次在國會告訴國人說還沒有達成協議好 那本席給你一個強烈的建議日本"},{"start":1664.281,"end":1680.785,"text":"承諾的5500億美金是因為日本的GDP 4.1兆美元他大概是用國家GDP的13%承諾投資韓國 南韓1.87兆美元的GDP投資18.7到美國台灣只要是2500億美金就32%我們的GDP"},{"start":1694.504,"end":1699.908,"text":"3000億美金是38%4000億美金是51%我們台灣的GDP本席絕對不同意你們最後談這個協議是喪權辱國讓台灣世代都無法承受的這樣的財政壓力"},{"start":1718.697,"end":1741.429,"text":"好的 謝謝委員這一段我記住我請談判代表特別把副委員所提的這一段詳細記錄出來我們在談判的時候要用這樣的數據對外去做說明這個副委員教談判代表的一個內容那如果談判有成我們一起為這樣的結果大家一起來享受這個成果如果談判遇到困難我們也希望大家共同來承擔這是當然雖然是民進黨在執政但是現在發生問題"},{"start":1748.76,"end":1772.522,"text":"全民都要承擔在野黨當然願意給我們的政府當靠山不過我跟委員講這一句要談出最好的條件這一些數據跟依據各國GDP的比較我們在談判代表都生計在心都生計在心也都用這樣來做依據的不管對美投資2500億 3000億 4000億美金"},{"start":1774.983,"end":1797.015,"text":"有沒有包括台積電的兩千億 有沒有台積電我知道它是實際精準一點數字是1650億目前1650嘛 川普大定義宣布兩千了嘛那他應該把它沒有關係 1650還是兩千億都可以請問有沒有包括在對美投資裡面"},{"start":1797.662,"end":1813.551,"text":"中華民國最美投資的這整個區塊有沒有就我政府立場任何一家國家的產業去投資都當作是我們國家出去的投資就我政府的立場是我們的立場是希望談判上一定要堅持這是包含在內另外我們中油採購的阿拉斯加600萬噸的天然氣有沒有包含在內"},{"start":1820.868,"end":1845.816,"text":"目前這個還在初步的整個開發計畫還沒有完全成熟是在找一些合作投資的對象國家而已我們是表示基於能源安全我們願意購買更多安全的能源總院長 希望購買更多安全的能源 謝謝本席在這裡 希望您確認一個事情"},{"start":1848.004,"end":1874.144,"text":"在你承諾美國要簽署協議之前我希望你承諾在對美簽署協議之前要把完整的協議內容不是協議內容而已對國內產業所有的衝擊還有民生的影響這份報告送到立法院會的再過來"},{"start":1874.98,"end":1903.097,"text":"我們談判過程絕對不能降低我們食安的標準還有標示等等我不能降標國人健康跟糧食安全是四大原則裡面重要兩項另外兩個就是維持國家的利益跟產業的利益對於現在20%疊加關稅往上架往上架我們政府所有紓困的方式清單"},{"start":1905.199,"end":1915.719,"text":"要盡快送到立法院到時要一併送來立法院在修正條例當中原來的條例以及預算當中對國內產業解放是怎麼樣"},{"start":1916.633,"end":1944.344,"text":"要必須很完整送到立法院來在任性條例以及修正案當中以及未來的特別預算裡面我們會強烈的來說明那當然如果委員提出任何的詢問我們各部會一定加強說明不僅讓國會瞭解也讓各產業瞭解這才是重點我們看一下齁當時影響台灣非常非常大的改變台灣政治方向也讓民進黨能夠順利執政當時台南化的訴求我們看一下"},{"start":1945,"end":1973.955,"text":"這邊我們還要重申兩岸協議監督條例的堅持的五大立法原則包括公民參與包括國會監督 人權保障資訊公開以及政府負責第二點我們的成果 我們的訴求是先立法再審查推推 黑小福報推推 黑小福報推推好 主席院長過去是先立法再審查"},{"start":1975.403,"end":1997.191,"text":"現在我們完完全全都不知道它的內容是什麼那是立監督兩岸的法 兩岸監督條例對外只要把台灣的核心辦出去通通是一樣影響到台灣的生存發展 卓院長"},{"start":1998.217,"end":2026.512,"text":"不要迴避這些台灣核心關鍵技術建設技術不會往外移我們至少保持最領先的這個世代這個是政府跟業界共通有的共識大家也會遵守要給您一個非常大的一個建議對美的談判總院長要加油給鄭麗君副院長我知道你談判很辛苦但是要盡快有結果 不能讓人民"},{"start":2027.847,"end":2056.528,"text":"永遠在空等苦等本席在這裡強烈的建議當川普大帝要我們投資美國我們的政府如果是投資一千億美金舉例我們希望美國附帶的條件給台灣的條件必須要提供華爾街的融資舉例來講阿拉斯加我們要投資"},{"start":2059.002,"end":2067.406,"text":"不管是他的建設建構阿拉斯加輸氣管線整個設備440億美金如果我們要投資的話還是預購未來的600萬噸請美國提供融資我們投資1000億請他融資900億或是800億美金"},{"start":2089.104,"end":2116.941,"text":"就是一個方式同時也希望這家公司能夠美國要求我們投資的公司跟項目請他們用公司債的方式發CP有保證投報率我們來購買他的CP一切的建設由他自行操作但是投報率必須高於"},{"start":2118.373,"end":2126.869,"text":"他們給我們的貸款的利息這才能確保台灣的經濟不會被損耗掉"},{"start":2129.25,"end":2153.531,"text":"學長可以嗎阿拉斯天然氣的投資案不是美國單獨或是美國跟台灣兩國是一個國際性世界性現在都在討論的也多數國家提出興趣國際性更應該要這麼做我認為會有一道標準我認為會有一個標準是各國可以通用或是可以大體通用的一個方式那我們當然站在國家立場"},{"start":2154.392,"end":2182.884,"text":"委員所提的 我們都曾經這樣的設想過許多的方案但還不到那個時候 還不到那個時候本席跟你強烈建議 要這麼做這個才不會拖垮台灣的財政跟台灣的產業就談判的方式來講 我們現在還沒有到那個程度我們不會輕易提出 既然是一個多國成立的公司更應該讓美國政府用國家的力量讓這家公司能夠盡快的"},{"start":2184.008,"end":2212.737,"text":"在美國上市在美國IPO發行公司在有保障的投報必須高於華爾街所提供的銀行利息才能讓我們國家的經濟立於不敗之地左院長請你慎思再來我們現在AI產業要代表我們整個國家在未來世界的科技發展裡面還在領先群"},{"start":2214.668,"end":2240.727,"text":"要用多少的電力啊所以你講 電力就是國力 就是戰力我們如果沒有電的話我們現在的配比 80%火力發電氣 火力發電大家用廢發電本期希望齁給您建議啊 這一次對美的投資"},{"start":2245.592,"end":2269.912,"text":"前天希望重啟河山台灣人民跟不希望 不同意重啟河山是三倍的民意 三倍的民意因為大家不希望用昂貴的電讓國家沒有競爭力很希望您這次對美談判"},{"start":2271.826,"end":2294.882,"text":"把最先進最安全全世界都期待的小型核能也把它列入投資或是政府必須購買的項目裡面可以讓台灣的電力不予匱乏讓全世界最先進的產業科技產業能夠走進台灣讓台灣能夠吸收更多的"},{"start":2296.356,"end":2321.983,"text":"這個國際的投資能夠走進來第一個 他們就問有沒有電力卓院長可以把它納入嗎我們說過新的核能技術總統也講過先進的核能技術都是未來我們可以開放討論接受學習的目標它如果真的可以解決安全的問題沒有核廢料的問題而我們共同都有社會高度的共識這個就會成為未來台灣能源政策一種新的思考模式卓院長"},{"start":2324.209,"end":2348.789,"text":"台灣不是世界最先進的國家先進的國家他的能源是怎麼使用怎麼配比這是台灣政府要好好來學習的不要一味的用教條式的話術這個人民已經投完票了請尊重民意做政策的調整"},{"start":2353.868,"end":2371.426,"text":"做政策的調整我們尊重結果 相信科學我們願意來共同討論直接拆穿這個世紀謊言什麼風電 太陽能我們希望先進國家的思維是什麼"},{"start":2373.868,"end":2396.207,"text":"這個標題不對 他是對他國內講他沒有拆穿民進黨的謊言民進黨的政策我們會知道要跟國家與時俱進我們會做相同的討論他在講他國內的風電太陽能是世紀謊言嘛那跟我們這邊 你們的堅持不是一樣嗎你們堅持要風電太陽能嘛他講的世紀謊言那不是戳破大家講的嗎"},{"start":2398.28,"end":2427.5,"text":"本席你尊重你的 不要再那個嘛 對不對不要再背離民意嘛 也不要背離產業嘛要把台北的產業都趕出去嘛 對不對我們看一下一下價格外購風電6.59元 台電公布太陽能光電4.87元 太陽能發電1.38元院長 希望這一張啊 已經貼在床頭啊每天睡覺前看一下"},{"start":2428.753,"end":2451.543,"text":"臺灣要怎麼發展人民怎麼生存請重視一下再看看我們現在用廢發電我們排行連續9年破9000萬噸要臺灣人民用廢發電人民已經做出了選擇請政府適可而止 好不好"},{"start":2452.594,"end":2461.543,"text":"我們的碳排量逐年在下降台電提出過多次精準的數據可以提供給委員做參考國防預算9495億 創新高"},{"start":2468.568,"end":2492.88,"text":"這當然包括這次對美的包裹這有沒有包括這次對美的包裹所有這些軍工採購都在裡面有沒有這個是明年的總預算加上部分過去的這個特別預算為數不多那就是總預算但是我們採行的是北約的通案的算法把海巡 退府都加進來才達到這個數字現在GDP是3.3%"},{"start":2496.215,"end":2505.537,"text":"我們明天是佔3.3%本席在這裡給你建議代表國民黨團2001年阿扁執政當時2377億的國防預算現在9495億國防預算剛好4倍剛好4倍當時的人均"},{"start":2525.697,"end":2542.93,"text":"GDP是13400美元現在是34000美元我們的經濟成長只有2.5倍但是我們的國防預算增加了4倍還不包括我不曉得"},{"start":2544.492,"end":2556.58,"text":"9月份會不會又送了一個大禮包來報告委員 我說過了我們現在的算法是採取北約模式把退府 把海巡等等加進來把資安加進來才達到這個9000多億請問卓院長你把這個加進來2001年阿扁執政這些沒有加進來嗎那時候沒有採北約模式是我們原來的數字是"},{"start":2569.762,"end":2597.851,"text":"當時 請問一下 當時沒有退幅嗎但是沒有加進來 算國防預算沒有關係 本席現在在提醒您的是我們經濟成長只有2.5倍不管你現在是4倍的國防預算增加還是3.5倍的國防預算增加 還是3倍也好都趕不上經濟成長的腳步周院長 本席要特別提醒您一下"},{"start":2600.343,"end":2619.755,"text":"1960年到1990年美國跟蘇聯的爭霸美國用圍堵的政策讓蘇聯軍備競賽經濟被圍堵用一樣的軍費大家火拼到最後經濟跟不上30年時間蘇聯因為經濟崩潰而解體"},{"start":2625.16,"end":2649.803,"text":"如果我們今天沒有足夠的經濟實力來充實我們的國防卓院長卓院長這不只對我們國家的財政是沉重的負擔更對我們所有民生所有的這些知識都會遭到排擠卓院長本席在這裡啊要特別啊"},{"start":2650.667,"end":2678.528,"text":"這個故事北溪要再講一次我們是基於國家的主權安全的維護考量到我們的財政能力所以我們有很多包括不對稱戰爭的因素我們採取國家對國防的需求所以總統現在二月就提出了所以國軍將士加急兩萬塊還是不給總統在今年是已經核定了國軍的加急各類的加急我們希望能夠"},{"start":2683.282,"end":2692.23,"text":"這兩萬塊 國軍加起的從一萬到三萬本席希望在預算書送到立法院來的時候本席要看見沒有強健的國軍"},{"start":2694.008,"end":2720.858,"text":"因為為國犧牲奮戰買再多的武器都是恍然很抱歉 這個在預算沒有編列但是我們說過 我們提出釋憲釋憲結果之後對不起我們公告你需要實施你實施的同時 你可以去釋憲請依法 不要違法在釋憲結果之後 釋憲是你的權利我們可以 但是要依法先實施編或不編 如果編會同時補足 要依法先實施本席在這裡 最後苦口婆心"},{"start":2724.435,"end":2750.867,"text":"50年前東南亞經濟最強盛的國家叫做菲律賓但是出到一個馬可思總統他的腐敗讓菲律賓人三代為奴台灣三代人的努力我們一定要守住一定要守住希望卓院長 腰桿挺直跟美國人談判 好不好我們堅持國家立場另外徐委員跟林委員有任何的指教"},{"start":2753.502,"end":2755.349,"text":"好 謝謝副委員 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學委員 林委員 三位委員好卓院長好經過了整整將近一年的時間整個國家空轉"},{"start":61.24,"end":89.551,"text":"不斷地衝刺從總統 院長 部會首長執政者的國會議員到執政者的所有的宣傳工具一連當中不斷地攻擊在野黨所謂中共同路人 所謂共匪立委讓台灣不斷地撕裂 撕裂再撕裂"},{"start":90.558,"end":119.709,"text":"要弱化在野監督的力量在昨天在前天兩天前人民已經做出了一個完整的一個決定左院長對於報載所有媒體報導去年1月13號總統大選結束以後1月14號賴總統跟您還有柯總召決定一年後"},{"start":120.458,"end":141.669,"text":"要推動大罷免希望能夠一黨專政然後現在終於所有的事情人民已經很清楚的告訴執政者並沒有這樣的事情哪一件事情沒有這樣的事1月13號 1月14號之後"},{"start":144.922,"end":170.26,"text":"總統或是跟任何人要推動大罷免這件事情並沒有這樣的事情但是當時媒體報宅的時候你們並沒有否認啊當時說的是對立法會跟兩院互動關係當時就應該要像現在告訴全國國人沒有這件事嘛對不對那當時為什麼不來否認好沒有關係現在講也可以"},{"start":171.991,"end":199.683,"text":"但是對於整個國家的空轉包括不斷的誣陷攻擊 再也立委現在人民已經做出了決定不管是有民進黨在台灣的獨裁專政亦或者是民進黨的國家能源政策人民已經給出了很清楚的答案對於內閣是不是要總辭"},{"start":201.175,"end":218.155,"text":"所以你講什麼看法總統已經說過7月26號之後我已經數次跟總統談論到這樣的話題我認為不是因為罷免不罷免的問題而是整個在政策推動上"},{"start":219.847,"end":246.272,"text":"過去那段時間的不順暢跟未來有沒有辦法順暢的推動這才是行政院該檢討的行政院不只是檢討過去那一段是未來我們要做什麼責任政治在哪裡責任政治在哪裡我希望總統 如您剛剛所說過去政策推動不順利政策推動不順利包括政策是否適當"},{"start":248.322,"end":276.314,"text":"第二個是否有完整的溝通第三個是否獨裁專段這三件事情你認為你做到了嗎第一個沒有獨裁專段第二個溝通必須加強第三個政策推動不順利是因為有些政策 行政院因為違憲之前我們有示愛難行再野黨"},{"start":277.819,"end":303.761,"text":"什麼時候溝通過了我們曾經到行政院裡面來談過話幾次至少有兩次以上所以卓院長在這一年多當中跟在野黨的溝通是兩次行政院透過執政黨團跟在野黨團的溝通那是每天都在進行的過去一年我們只衝刺看到"},{"start":304.81,"end":333.116,"text":"執政黨團不斷的造謠不斷的申飛有什麼時候來溝通每個黨團都很努力 不斷的攻擊不斷的對在野立委的監督不斷用各種不堪入耳的方式的攻擊就光講今天的專案報告就好了4月2號發生美國川普總統對全世界"},{"start":334.11,"end":360.648,"text":"無差別的要求加碼關稅對全世界的經濟衝擊國民黨團立刻要求 沈院長要到院報告到今天幾個月了 四個月 五個月執政黨團還在這裡護航 您來這裡報告多少次"},{"start":361.547,"end":390.272,"text":"我們當時就希望你來說清楚講明白我們得到的答案是什麼執政黨民進黨團堅決反對我們要再一次的表達不管心不甘情不願也好主動跟國人說明也好卓院長本來就應該在第一時間到國會來跟國人做一個報告即便是有很多內容是不能透露的"},{"start":391.101,"end":419.945,"text":"我們都可以尊重那要通過溝通大家了解以後相忍為國而不是在發生這麼大的事情以後五個月後才來報告所以總院長您對這一次全國國人民意就誠如賴總統所說更大的民意最新的民意已經出來了總院長"},{"start":422.178,"end":426.966,"text":"內閣要不要總辭內閣的重要人士會做"},{"start":428.464,"end":456.488,"text":"主要人事的一個調整那我跟總統提出過必須負起政治責任總統認為在這個時候局勢要穩定下來很多已經在推動的事情以及明年總預算的編列都要同時進行那其實我認為在8月23總預算也已經編列完成了全國性的投票秩序良好那應該是一個時間但總統還是認為持續把工作做下去在總統的整個治國的理念之下他認為是最好"},{"start":457.108,"end":485.848,"text":"那麼我在這個原則底下我們就展開主要人事的調整第一個這一年多的執政以及國會以及國家以及台灣整體的內耗空轉已經非常的清楚人民已經做了這樣的一個決定卓院長本席不是針對您這是一個民主國家最基本的風骨"},{"start":488.271,"end":503.629,"text":"在禮拜六晚上 卓院長就必須公開開記者會來表示內閣總詞這是最基本的至於總統要不要留要不要公開留什麼理由來留 我們都尊重"},{"start":504.963,"end":529.991,"text":"但是你最基本的表態 必須讓全國國人看見這不是表態的問題 我已經向總統提出了這不是表態不表態 這是真實認為 責任正是國家不是您跟賴總統兩個人的國家是全民的 態度必須要出來我們政治的考量跟政治的互動 這是一種選擇世界所有媒體的報導"},{"start":531.512,"end":560.278,"text":"跟我們最寧靜的關係也最深厚的日本獨賣新聞對於企圖罷免在野黨台灣人民否決 再來東洋經濟 台灣政治今天一陷入嚴重的兩極化這是誰造成的沒有溝通 從來不溝通 霸道"},{"start":561.906,"end":591.173,"text":"就是執政者的標章再來學者日本小立委員表示賴清德也失去日本媒體的信任從獨賣到朝日都不樂見罷免對台灣不樂觀好 再來美國外交政策期刊呼籲川普"},{"start":591.906,"end":621.153,"text":"要約束台灣再來BBC針對執政黨說所謂在野立委是親中的大罷免如何撕裂了台灣再來黃柏台灣選民否決這次的大罷免卓院長"},{"start":624.4,"end":641.989,"text":"北溪講過很多次在這裡再一次的呼籲您身為國家的葛魁一年多來有多少的衝突但是你只有兩次兩次的溝通"},{"start":645.899,"end":666.789,"text":"不要為難國會議長禮拜六本席看到賴總統對全國人民以及媒體的發問跟回答本席非常的意外"},{"start":669.382,"end":693.673,"text":"當民進黨立法院黨團再三的要求韓國瑜韓院長議事要中立不得介入任何的黨務賴總統竟然說要請卓院長跟韓院長溝通不要又把責任推到韓院長身上來包括我跟韓院長溝通不是黨務啊是兩院互動模式是必須"},{"start":695.37,"end":723.236,"text":"必須讓各個政黨各個黨團包括貴黨黨團在內有很多人都有不同對您的施政很多人都有不同的意見我虛心接受不是你接不接受的問題你要去溝通的問題我們全面改進但是我有一句話今天我們在這裡對話應該是針對今天的主題如果是韓院長在的話大概會制止你這樣的發言希望要盡快的來溝通"},{"start":724.929,"end":744.116,"text":"如果韓院長再會制止你今天的發言為什麼不針對今天的主題啊這都是整個國家的互動最關鍵的一環卓院長啊 不要再閃避問題我沒有聽到任何問題 今天的主題"},{"start":746.276,"end":772.297,"text":"剛剛講的都是台灣現在發生最嚴重的問題我們都了解 怎麼不是問題呢各位怎麼可以經過民意 用婆鳥心來嬰兒盜鈴呢經過民意我們都充分了解我們也面對民意的改變了解了你的做法是什麼嘛所以本席剛剛在這裡苦口婆心請卓院長不要再把責任推到國會議長身上"},{"start":773.646,"end":799.201,"text":"你們對各黨的溝通是什麼賴總統到現在為止既沒有跟國民黨主席民眾黨主席坐下來談行政院長也沒有針對每一件國家重大的事情跟在野黨保持暢旺的溝通本席希望如果正如你所說"},{"start":801.758,"end":829.694,"text":"蔡總統堅持要留任 左院長我們尊重但未來的溝通請拿出誠意用常態性的溝通對每一件事情能夠有一個清楚 完整讓在野黨能夠了解大家可以共體時間但是我們不能瞎子摸象內容完全不了解我們要怎麼樣來支持"},{"start":831.069,"end":857.79,"text":"要更何況要怎麼樣來背書我希望卓榮泰卓院長希望你改變過去一年多的戰鬥模式現在必須真正成為中華民國的行政院長而不是民進黨的行政院長我們曾經說過要做四項調整調整國家財政體質調整施政的先後順序調整兩院互動以及調整內閣人事我們逐步展開"},{"start":859.605,"end":886.979,"text":"本黨團拭目以待今天不是個人的施政總諮詢今天是專案報告我們三位包括徐議貞委員 林倩琦委員都是代表國民黨團來就教於卓榮泰卓院長好我們看一下這個"},{"start":891.521,"end":915.402,"text":"昨天的聯合報跟中國時報報頭我們就不再提這個事情本期現在要請教一下現在對美關稅地板是20%還要加上WTO相關的這些稅率"},{"start":917.472,"end":944.997,"text":"再加上台幣升值大幅升值對外銷產業的重創基本上來說這個就是莫衷一事在野黨完全看不懂執政者今天的談判如此的失敗日本 韓國 台灣最大的競爭者都是15%的上限"},{"start":945.964,"end":963.952,"text":"天花板因為他們已經達成協議我們20%是地板我們還在努力爭取更合理的稅率同一個時間從4月2號開始各國開始跟美國溝通我們並不是在不是在同一個起跑點上大家都在同一個時間面對這個問題"},{"start":967.099,"end":985.172,"text":"如果日本韓國已經達成協議台灣還沒有達成協議這個基本上就已經失職就已經失職因為新版關稅已經實施已經實施由不得時不待人"},{"start":986.95,"end":1014.731,"text":"台灣產業已經面對這樣的衝擊我剛剛已經說過了因為我們的密差比較大而且232對我們的產業是比較影響多我們居於這樣關鍵性的領先地位這兩個部分都是像現在請告訴國人什麼時候可以談好談判是雙方2月1號到現在已經快一個月了我們國內的產業已經忍受到將近一個月的高關稅"},{"start":1016.447,"end":1045.359,"text":"對產業支持我們先用以緩計及方式在特別預算出來之前我們用以緩計及的方式先向 進行產業的支持 您所提出的881加51 931立法院也支持啊現在但是我們不能永無止境的等待我們尊重 左院長你的說法 感謝很多都在談判過程中都還在保密好"},{"start":1047.783,"end":1071.798,"text":"請問什麼時候可以Data是什麼時候什麼時候可以做最後的確認要不要請談判代表來說一下現在努力的進行你不瞭解狀況嗎我當然知道 談判代表就請你直接回答本席好不好我跟委員來做一個報告從8月1號以來我們跟美方有繼續進行三次的視訊會議請教先回答本席的問題什麼時候可以談完"},{"start":1072.318,"end":1087.321,"text":"我們當然希望越快越好那談判取決於希望是代表什麼意思回溯我們在8月1號前沒能達成協議最重要的一個因素就是因為我國出口七成是半導體及ICT尤其占逆差的九成"},{"start":1087.822,"end":1112.983,"text":"那美方也表示這個項目在美方232的調查底下那也連動美方232關稅的政策方向所以台美需要一些時間持續就對等跟232一併對談 一併並談所以我們持續在這個談判中那我們希望越快越好那美國財政部長所以今天到立法院正式專案報告是給"},{"start":1117.011,"end":1141.154,"text":"有夢最美 希望相隨希望 希望產業都絕望了 你們還在希望我們全力以赴 越快越好那關於產業現在受到的衝擊我家什麼叫全力以赴你把外交辭令帶到這裡來人民快要活不下去了報告委員 我們上禮拜五還在視訊會議"},{"start":1142.976,"end":1159.525,"text":"這本來就該做的事情 不需告訴我嘛你們本來就該做的事情嘛 你說 談判什麼時候進行上禮拜五還在談 表示這個談判一直在進行當中有需要 談判代表會指揮美國去談判為什麼有一個這麼無能的政府嘛什麼叫希望嘛"},{"start":1161.134,"end":1176.904,"text":"不是 我們現在報告委員已經在進行的事情談判小組我們正在全力的進行談判當中那由於台美雙方在232的議題有關半導體跟ICT產業是相對於其他國家232的項目相對於複雜跟變動性我們全力佈陣在談判經濟努力當中如果你帶來的只是希望兩個字 請回"},{"start":1189.912,"end":1194.737,"text":"不會 我們會用結果來證明我們的努力主席 兩位請回"},{"start":1195.97,"end":1219.216,"text":"告訴我們就是希望 兩位請回我們全力以赴 繼續努力爭取最好的結果 爭取更好的合理的稅率我們也必須要向大院做以上的報告報告委員 我剛剛說過國際談判難上加難最後的時間就是雙方條件多你們能力不足嘛 講白了就是這樣嘛那本席在這裡"},{"start":1223.12,"end":1239.169,"text":"一定要很強烈的讓院長了解台積電我們一分鐘來回顧一下中華民國政府在1974年民國63年當時的經濟部長我再強調一次經濟部長孫運璿"},{"start":1247.282,"end":1268.383,"text":"帶了七人小組在豆漿店裡面開啟了台灣的科技奇蹟在65年跟RCA簽約派了一批優秀的科技人才到美國去學習 再來"},{"start":1271.155,"end":1299.518,"text":"在民國74年成立了台灣集體電路公司台積電並邀請張忠謀來擔任負責人卓院長這是我們台灣的手心我們的心骨肉台灣人民的心骨肉我們的政府跟全民所培養出來的"},{"start":1300.376,"end":1316.288,"text":"給了各種的優惠前面來留住人才這個台積電在民國76年1987年台積電公司成立請問一下周院長當時的李國鼎經濟部長跟現在的經濟部長"},{"start":1330.279,"end":1351.267,"text":"剛剛請辭的郭志輝面臨這4月2號到現在為止四五六七八五個月請問台積電當時去美國跟美國總統川普在白宮開記者會的時候郭志輝部長說他不知道"},{"start":1355.814,"end":1361.78,"text":"那再請問我們所有對美關稅談判過程當中經濟部長有沒有參與"},{"start":1363.598,"end":1387.097,"text":"我們提出的對產業支持都是經濟部所提出來的我們對工業的出口進口對產業支持經濟部我說對美談判他有沒有參加嗎回答我問題有這麼困難嗎我們對工業出口的稅率 進口的稅率等等我們都是經濟部所提出來我們用這個稅率去進行談判的怎麼會沒有談判呢那你就告訴本席他有參與就好了嘛"},{"start":1388.827,"end":1391.673,"text":"對不對 當時的經濟部長是製造台灣奇蹟的人現在的經濟部長 一問三不知"},{"start":1398.322,"end":1412.289,"text":"報告委員 每個時代的經濟部長都要面對不同的挑戰現在時代的經濟部長比較不重要了可以不用參與就對了當時一個李國鼎 孫運璿可以造成台灣的奇蹟我到工業區的時候我都會感謝當時李國鼎當時孫運璿院長 李國鼎部長當時帶領那批年輕工程師締造台灣目前的高科技產業我都這樣講過"},{"start":1426.415,"end":1449.125,"text":"六時代的經濟部長不一樣啦 本席瞭解現在是廁所裡的花瓶啦完全不是核心 也沒有參與任何所以第一時間所有全國媒體問他他都不知道這個事情再問他說川普說要投資台積電要投資兩千億 三千億他說這是假新聞這就是現在執政團隊的經濟部長淪為國際的笑話"},{"start":1453.479,"end":1480.749,"text":"我對郭志輝部長抱屈啊完全排除在外的核心 排除核心之外的人並非如此何必讓他當經濟部長委員你這樣子講真的我也要替他抱屈 並非如此再來 本席請教一下國家安全法第三條國家的核心關鍵技術之營業秘密台積電是不是是不是"},{"start":1481.753,"end":1508.885,"text":"是不是適用國安法第三條是國家核心關鍵技術台積電不僅對國家重要對世界重要它當然是國家的核心關鍵技術好 謝謝所以再來我們公司對外投資處理辦法第六條不與核准影響國家安全對國家經濟發展有不利的影響"},{"start":1510.82,"end":1539.411,"text":"請問台積電是不是對外投資如果核心技術移走是不是對台灣會造成相當大的影響下一頁不管依照國家安全法第三條的第一項第三項還是公司國外投資處理辦法第五條請問一下"},{"start":1541.243,"end":1545.262,"text":"卓院長台積電什麼時候要送神"},{"start":1546.735,"end":1574.509,"text":"台積電要送審由台積電台積公司他們提出來要送審的時間由他們提出但是我們依據的就是包括委員剛剛所說的原則在內我們希望他在台灣搶但他經過他審慎頭思考要世界佈局的時候只要合乎我們的條件政府並不會阻擋但是我們要求跟留台灣我們要求台灣加一我們台灣要求關鍵技術要留在台灣核心的研發留在台灣這個原則不變"},{"start":1575.789,"end":1603.587,"text":"對美有N-1嗎有N-1嗎我們對台灣N-1在台灣要外國投資的台灣不能減少對國外投資有沒有N-1美國的政策我不瞭解美國是不是N-1台灣對外的投資生產技術關鍵要關鍵技術有沒有前一代出去投資有沒有台灣一定要保持最領先的位置所以對外國的投資都不應該把核心技術往外所以對外投資"},{"start":1605.063,"end":1634.148,"text":"有確實執行恩檢運嗎在審查投審的審查過程當中一定是嚴格要求這關係到台灣的經濟命脈跟國家販產跟國家安全台灣日本美國更不要說三座晶圓廠兩座先進封裝廠主要研發團隊都搬過去來我們看一下台日韓關稅對美投資承諾的比較我們看一下日本"},{"start":1635.06,"end":1663.154,"text":"五千五百億美金韓國三千五百億美金台灣大概多少億美金雙方都有提出一些方案還沒有達成協議所以現在沒有做任何實質承諾卓院長 您還是用你的老辦法再次在國會告訴國人說還沒有達成協議好 那本席給你一個強烈的建議日本"},{"start":1664.281,"end":1680.785,"text":"承諾的5500億美金是因為日本的GDP 4.1兆美元他大概是用國家GDP的13%承諾投資韓國 南韓1.87兆美元的GDP投資18.7到美國台灣只要是2500億美金就32%我們的GDP"},{"start":1694.504,"end":1699.908,"text":"3000億美金是38%4000億美金是51%我們台灣的GDP本席絕對不同意你們最後談這個協議是喪權辱國讓台灣世代都無法承受的這樣的財政壓力"},{"start":1718.697,"end":1741.429,"text":"好的 謝謝委員這一段我記住我請談判代表特別把副委員所提的這一段詳細記錄出來我們在談判的時候要用這樣的數據對外去做說明這個副委員教談判代表的一個內容那如果談判有成我們一起為這樣的結果大家一起來享受這個成果如果談判遇到困難我們也希望大家共同來承擔這是當然雖然是民進黨在執政但是現在發生問題"},{"start":1748.76,"end":1772.522,"text":"全民都要承擔在野黨當然願意給我們的政府當靠山不過我跟委員講這一句要談出最好的條件這一些數據跟依據各國GDP的比較我們在談判代表都生計在心都生計在心也都用這樣來做依據的不管對美投資2500億 3000億 4000億美金"},{"start":1774.983,"end":1797.015,"text":"有沒有包括台積電的兩千億 有沒有台積電我知道它是實際精準一點數字是1650億目前1650嘛 川普大定義宣布兩千了嘛那他應該把它沒有關係 1650還是兩千億都可以請問有沒有包括在對美投資裡面"},{"start":1797.662,"end":1813.551,"text":"中華民國最美投資的這整個區塊有沒有就我政府立場任何一家國家的產業去投資都當作是我們國家出去的投資就我政府的立場是我們的立場是希望談判上一定要堅持這是包含在內另外我們中油採購的阿拉斯加600萬噸的天然氣有沒有包含在內"},{"start":1820.868,"end":1845.816,"text":"目前這個還在初步的整個開發計畫還沒有完全成熟是在找一些合作投資的對象國家而已我們是表示基於能源安全我們願意購買更多安全的能源總院長 希望購買更多安全的能源 謝謝本席在這裡 希望您確認一個事情"},{"start":1848.004,"end":1874.144,"text":"在你承諾美國要簽署協議之前我希望你承諾在對美簽署協議之前要把完整的協議內容不是協議內容而已對國內產業所有的衝擊還有民生的影響這份報告送到立法院會的再過來"},{"start":1874.98,"end":1903.097,"text":"我們談判過程絕對不能降低我們食安的標準還有標示等等我不能降標國人健康跟糧食安全是四大原則裡面重要兩項另外兩個就是維持國家的利益跟產業的利益對於現在20%疊加關稅往上架往上架我們政府所有紓困的方式清單"},{"start":1905.199,"end":1915.719,"text":"要盡快送到立法院到時要一併送來立法院在修正條例當中原來的條例以及預算當中對國內產業解放是怎麼樣"},{"start":1916.633,"end":1944.344,"text":"要必須很完整送到立法院來在任性條例以及修正案當中以及未來的特別預算裡面我們會強烈的來說明那當然如果委員提出任何的詢問我們各部會一定加強說明不僅讓國會瞭解也讓各產業瞭解這才是重點我們看一下齁當時影響台灣非常非常大的改變台灣政治方向也讓民進黨能夠順利執政當時台南化的訴求我們看一下"},{"start":1945,"end":1973.955,"text":"這邊我們還要重申兩岸協議監督條例的堅持的五大立法原則包括公民參與包括國會監督 人權保障資訊公開以及政府負責第二點我們的成果 我們的訴求是先立法再審查推推 黑小福報推推 黑小福報推推好 主席院長過去是先立法再審查"},{"start":1975.403,"end":1997.191,"text":"現在我們完完全全都不知道它的內容是什麼那是立監督兩岸的法 兩岸監督條例對外只要把台灣的核心辦出去通通是一樣影響到台灣的生存發展 卓院長"},{"start":1998.217,"end":2026.512,"text":"不要迴避這些台灣核心關鍵技術建設技術不會往外移我們至少保持最領先的這個世代這個是政府跟業界共通有的共識大家也會遵守要給您一個非常大的一個建議對美的談判總院長要加油給鄭麗君副院長我知道你談判很辛苦但是要盡快有結果 不能讓人民"},{"start":2027.847,"end":2056.528,"text":"永遠在空等苦等本席在這裡強烈的建議當川普大帝要我們投資美國我們的政府如果是投資一千億美金舉例我們希望美國附帶的條件給台灣的條件必須要提供華爾街的融資舉例來講阿拉斯加我們要投資"},{"start":2059.002,"end":2067.406,"text":"不管是他的建設建構阿拉斯加輸氣管線整個設備440億美金如果我們要投資的話還是預購未來的600萬噸請美國提供融資我們投資1000億請他融資900億或是800億美金"},{"start":2089.104,"end":2116.941,"text":"就是一個方式同時也希望這家公司能夠美國要求我們投資的公司跟項目請他們用公司債的方式發CP有保證投報率我們來購買他的CP一切的建設由他自行操作但是投報率必須高於"},{"start":2118.373,"end":2126.869,"text":"他們給我們的貸款的利息這才能確保台灣的經濟不會被損耗掉"},{"start":2129.25,"end":2153.531,"text":"學長可以嗎阿拉斯天然氣的投資案不是美國單獨或是美國跟台灣兩國是一個國際性世界性現在都在討論的也多數國家提出興趣國際性更應該要這麼做我認為會有一道標準我認為會有一個標準是各國可以通用或是可以大體通用的一個方式那我們當然站在國家立場"},{"start":2154.392,"end":2182.884,"text":"委員所提的 我們都曾經這樣的設想過許多的方案但還不到那個時候 還不到那個時候本席跟你強烈建議 要這麼做這個才不會拖垮台灣的財政跟台灣的產業就談判的方式來講 我們現在還沒有到那個程度我們不會輕易提出 既然是一個多國成立的公司更應該讓美國政府用國家的力量讓這家公司能夠盡快的"},{"start":2184.008,"end":2212.737,"text":"在美國上市在美國IPO發行公司在有保障的投報必須高於華爾街所提供的銀行利息才能讓我們國家的經濟立於不敗之地左院長請你慎思再來我們現在AI產業要代表我們整個國家在未來世界的科技發展裡面還在領先群"},{"start":2214.668,"end":2240.727,"text":"要用多少的電力啊所以你講 電力就是國力 就是戰力我們如果沒有電的話我們現在的配比 80%火力發電氣 火力發電大家用廢發電本期希望齁給您建議啊 這一次對美的投資"},{"start":2245.592,"end":2269.912,"text":"前天希望重啟河山台灣人民跟不希望 不同意重啟河山是三倍的民意 三倍的民意因為大家不希望用昂貴的電讓國家沒有競爭力很希望您這次對美談判"},{"start":2271.826,"end":2294.882,"text":"把最先進最安全全世界都期待的小型核能也把它列入投資或是政府必須購買的項目裡面可以讓台灣的電力不予匱乏讓全世界最先進的產業科技產業能夠走進台灣讓台灣能夠吸收更多的"},{"start":2296.356,"end":2321.983,"text":"這個國際的投資能夠走進來第一個 他們就問有沒有電力卓院長可以把它納入嗎我們說過新的核能技術總統也講過先進的核能技術都是未來我們可以開放討論接受學習的目標它如果真的可以解決安全的問題沒有核廢料的問題而我們共同都有社會高度的共識這個就會成為未來台灣能源政策一種新的思考模式卓院長"},{"start":2324.209,"end":2348.789,"text":"台灣不是世界最先進的國家先進的國家他的能源是怎麼使用怎麼配比這是台灣政府要好好來學習的不要一味的用教條式的話術這個人民已經投完票了請尊重民意做政策的調整"},{"start":2353.868,"end":2371.426,"text":"做政策的調整我們尊重結果 相信科學我們願意來共同討論直接拆穿這個世紀謊言什麼風電 太陽能我們希望先進國家的思維是什麼"},{"start":2373.868,"end":2396.207,"text":"這個標題不對 他是對他國內講他沒有拆穿民進黨的謊言民進黨的政策我們會知道要跟國家與時俱進我們會做相同的討論他在講他國內的風電太陽能是世紀謊言嘛那跟我們這邊 你們的堅持不是一樣嗎你們堅持要風電太陽能嘛他講的世紀謊言那不是戳破大家講的嗎"},{"start":2398.28,"end":2427.5,"text":"本席你尊重你的 不要再那個嘛 對不對不要再背離民意嘛 也不要背離產業嘛要把台北的產業都趕出去嘛 對不對我們看一下一下價格外購風電6.59元 台電公布太陽能光電4.87元 太陽能發電1.38元院長 希望這一張啊 已經貼在床頭啊每天睡覺前看一下"},{"start":2428.753,"end":2451.543,"text":"臺灣要怎麼發展人民怎麼生存請重視一下再看看我們現在用廢發電我們排行連續9年破9000萬噸要臺灣人民用廢發電人民已經做出了選擇請政府適可而止 好不好"},{"start":2452.594,"end":2461.543,"text":"我們的碳排量逐年在下降台電提出過多次精準的數據可以提供給委員做參考國防預算9495億 創新高"},{"start":2468.568,"end":2492.88,"text":"這當然包括這次對美的包裹這有沒有包括這次對美的包裹所有這些軍工採購都在裡面有沒有這個是明年的總預算加上部分過去的這個特別預算為數不多那就是總預算但是我們採行的是北約的通案的算法把海巡 退府都加進來才達到這個數字現在GDP是3.3%"},{"start":2496.215,"end":2505.537,"text":"我們明天是佔3.3%本席在這裡給你建議代表國民黨團2001年阿扁執政當時2377億的國防預算現在9495億國防預算剛好4倍剛好4倍當時的人均"},{"start":2525.697,"end":2542.93,"text":"GDP是13400美元現在是34000美元我們的經濟成長只有2.5倍但是我們的國防預算增加了4倍還不包括我不曉得"},{"start":2544.492,"end":2556.58,"text":"9月份會不會又送了一個大禮包來報告委員 我說過了我們現在的算法是採取北約模式把退府 把海巡等等加進來把資安加進來才達到這個9000多億請問卓院長你把這個加進來2001年阿扁執政這些沒有加進來嗎那時候沒有採北約模式是我們原來的數字是"},{"start":2569.762,"end":2597.851,"text":"當時 請問一下 當時沒有退幅嗎但是沒有加進來 算國防預算沒有關係 本席現在在提醒您的是我們經濟成長只有2.5倍不管你現在是4倍的國防預算增加還是3.5倍的國防預算增加 還是3倍也好都趕不上經濟成長的腳步周院長 本席要特別提醒您一下"},{"start":2600.343,"end":2619.755,"text":"1960年到1990年美國跟蘇聯的爭霸美國用圍堵的政策讓蘇聯軍備競賽經濟被圍堵用一樣的軍費大家火拼到最後經濟跟不上30年時間蘇聯因為經濟崩潰而解體"},{"start":2625.16,"end":2649.803,"text":"如果我們今天沒有足夠的經濟實力來充實我們的國防卓院長卓院長這不只對我們國家的財政是沉重的負擔更對我們所有民生所有的這些知識都會遭到排擠卓院長本席在這裡啊要特別啊"},{"start":2650.667,"end":2678.528,"text":"這個故事北溪要再講一次我們是基於國家的主權安全的維護考量到我們的財政能力所以我們有很多包括不對稱戰爭的因素我們採取國家對國防的需求所以總統現在二月就提出了所以國軍將士加急兩萬塊還是不給總統在今年是已經核定了國軍的加急各類的加急我們希望能夠"},{"start":2683.282,"end":2692.23,"text":"這兩萬塊 國軍加起的從一萬到三萬本席希望在預算書送到立法院來的時候本席要看見沒有強健的國軍"},{"start":2694.008,"end":2720.858,"text":"因為為國犧牲奮戰買再多的武器都是恍然很抱歉 這個在預算沒有編列但是我們說過 我們提出釋憲釋憲結果之後對不起我們公告你需要實施你實施的同時 你可以去釋憲請依法 不要違法在釋憲結果之後 釋憲是你的權利我們可以 但是要依法先實施編或不編 如果編會同時補足 要依法先實施本席在這裡 最後苦口婆心"},{"start":2724.435,"end":2750.867,"text":"50年前東南亞經濟最強盛的國家叫做菲律賓但是出到一個馬可思總統他的腐敗讓菲律賓人三代為奴台灣三代人的努力我們一定要守住一定要守住希望卓院長 腰桿挺直跟美國人談判 好不好我們堅持國家立場另外徐委員跟林委員有任何的指教"},{"start":2753.502,"end":2755.349,"text":"好 謝謝副委員 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財政委員會於8月27日星期三召開會議處理中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案之審查事宜同日完成審查拟據審查報告送院會8月28日星期四召開會議處理114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案之審查事宜同日完成審查拟據審查報告送院會"},{"start":2042.205,"end":2068.363,"text":"三 八月二十八日星期四由院長先行協商處理中央政府丹納斯颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案並視委員會審查完略一百一十四年度中央政府總預算追加預算案後接續進行協商四 八月二十七日星期三下午進行因應"},{"start":2069.784,"end":2080.67,"text":"國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例第三條 第六條及第九條條文修正草案之協商"},{"start":2081.294,"end":2109.333,"text":"五 上開預算案及特別條例修正案均不受黨團協商期一個月之限制均列入8月29日星期五院會討論事項處理當日會議討論事項僅列上開三案及貨物稅條例第十二條之五條文修正草案案並不進行國事論壇不處理臨時提案六"},{"start":2110.748,"end":2130.897,"text":"為立下會期省紀長人事同意權審查之進行各黨團如有關於省紀長被提名人之書面問題請於9月5日星期五中午12時前送至議事處會診並由本院函送提名機關轉至被提名人"},{"start":2132.379,"end":2148.87,"text":"報告委員會現在進行行政院院長提出台美關稅談判之進程翻增原則及台灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估專案專案報告並備詢請行政院卓院長報告"},{"start":2165.72,"end":2194.942,"text":"韓院長 江副院長各位委員先進今日應大院安排就台美關係談判的進程方針原則以及台灣產業可能遭受的衝擊影響評估進行專案報告以下簡就以上的議題簡要的來向大院委員說明清楚"},{"start":2196.465,"end":2215.2,"text":"就進程而言讓大家都清楚從8月7號美國全球實施關稅的新的稅率就已經上路而台美雙方從4月開始經過4個多月的各種的磋商跟談判"},{"start":2216.721,"end":2228.289,"text":"我們將原有在既有稅率加上32%的對等關稅目前是暫時性的調整為既有稅率加20%的暫時性的對等稅率"},{"start":2232.27,"end":2260.836,"text":"那麼既有關稅加上若干百分比的稅率各國皆有不同但是這種算法是目前多數國家共通使用的原則也是美國在談判過程當中的一項原則我們也是在這樣的原則當中目前就是處於這種暫時性的稅率既有稅率加20%未來我們還要持續的有三個爭取第一個爭取"},{"start":2262.085,"end":2285.071,"text":"是爭取更合理對我有利的稅率第二個爭取是爭取我們跟232的條款能夠也有合理的協商過程跟結果第三個爭取當然是要爭取以不叠加的方式來完成整個談判的結果這是我們的三個爭取"},{"start":2287.179,"end":2302.024,"text":"就產業的衝擊方面我簡單的描述據2024年的統計美國從台灣進口部分分別在工業上我們進口的產值是1128.6億元農業是8.9億元那麼平均的稅率是3.3%"},{"start":2313.417,"end":2324.003,"text":"其中工業的產品稅率平均3.1%而且多數的稅率是在5%以下而其所有當中更有82.5%是零關稅"},{"start":2328.038,"end":2350.057,"text":"那麼至於農業的產品平均稅率是5%多數稅率也在10%以下而且有43.4%的關稅是零關稅因此簡單說工業平均3.1%農業平均5%整個加起來平均是工農的產品3.3%的平均稅率"},{"start":2354.787,"end":2381.54,"text":"另外在232的這項特別法案當中目前排除了若干品項的一個適用比如鋼鐵 汽車零組件藥品 半導體等等這個台美雙方會持續就未來的進展進行一些談判當然也不排除可能會新增其他的品項7月31號當美方宣布對台灣的對等關稅稅率從原來的32%"},{"start":2385.188,"end":2406.499,"text":"落到20%的時候我們就委託了智庫就4月初的那一次的衝擊評估跟推估我們再重新的加以核算我們知道我們得出的結果是我們在出口 在產值 在GDP以及對就業的影響7月底的這一次"},{"start":2409.308,"end":2427.794,"text":"20%跟4月3號的32%我們已經衝擊可以減緩約略五成但是我們絲毫不敢大意我們還是會持續做各個產業做全面性的瞭解通盤性的檢討並且要實出有力的支持"},{"start":2428.991,"end":2438.017,"text":"那我們在各方面的產品當中比如說影響到比較大的一些產品產業到底是哪些比方說手工具"},{"start":2439.229,"end":2466.898,"text":"工具機 水五金 重電以及塑膠製品等等這是工業的部分在農業當然是大家最近總統有去看的包括蝴蝶蘭 毛豆 鬼頭刀這個漁產等等這個我們都已經跟個別的產業進行一些瞭解我們實際知道他們的需求我們正開始從以緩計及以及我們未來的特別預算當中要予以支持"},{"start":2467.935,"end":2480.013,"text":"所以這些部分我們考慮到我們這些產業對蘇美的稅率負擔之外我們另外考量的是什麼是跟我們競爭對手在稅率上的高低"},{"start":2481.027,"end":2496.16,"text":"所以我們一定要持續的來跟美方做這方面的爭取所以這些產業的競爭力絕非取單一的因素而是多項的影響所以這個部分我們會積極的透過談判代表團繼續來爭取"},{"start":2498.342,"end":2514.773,"text":"同時我們為了穩定國內的產業當中最重要的是讓我們的勞工能夠安心所以勞動部從4月份開始也密集地訪視各個工商團體並且就他們可能受關稅影響來進行關懷訪視也掌握實際的影響情形根據統計"},{"start":2521.638,"end":2548.672,"text":"跟去年同期相比所謂的減班休息因為景氣影響的目前到8月中因為景氣影響的雖然是有191家跟3934人但其中再分析是受到關稅影響的那是有73家跟2388人"},{"start":2553.022,"end":2580.196,"text":"無論家數多寡 無論人數多少政府一定是一律的 全面的要就安定就業這個項目上面來做通盤的考量所以我們在產業的支持上面我們行政院在4月24號已經通過了強化韌性特別條例這個草案大院也在審議通過之後8月1號公佈實施"},{"start":2582.057,"end":2604.214,"text":"其中對於產業的支持編定了930億其中就分別有工業部門跟農業部門工業部門我們有金融支持降低行政企業行政的成本提升產業競爭力開拓多元市場以及租稅優惠在農業部分我們有從生產儲運產銷到外銷所提出的"},{"start":2609.52,"end":2638.002,"text":"也有金融支持提升產業競爭力跟開拓多元市場另外對於勞工的部分我們特別就安定就業的協助措施跟穩定促進就業強化雇用安定措施等等有協助初次來尋職的青年強化他求職的準備以及對創業協助跟整合型就業服務等等這就是針對勞工因應的衝擊的一些支持"},{"start":2639.062,"end":2667.112,"text":"那隨著美國訂定20%的鑽石性關稅之後8月7號開始使用所以我們在特別預算還未經大院來審議條例我們提出的修正修正案經過大院審議通過之後行政院會提出特別預算那這個很希望這個程序我們儘快來合作來完成但在這個之前行政院已經用了移緩季節的方式"},{"start":2668.232,"end":2694.363,"text":"先把現在各部會裡面能夠挪移出來的產業有實際受到損害的我們用移緩積極的方式給予產業必要的支持因此真正的期待8月14號行政院院會通過了強化任性條例的修正草案那後續我們也預留了200億的這個預算額度當有需要的時候我們再來啟用否則這個5900"},{"start":2697.204,"end":2724.696,"text":"70億的特別預算我們將來在5700億的第一期當中我們充分來使用當有需要的再啟動這些預留的200億的預算這個部分再請大院能夠全力的支持這是對產業的支持方面至於談判的方針跟原則我要再次特別感謝由鄭麗君副院長所領隊加上我們楊珍妮政委還有所有相關的各個部會經濟部"},{"start":2727.064,"end":2746.342,"text":"農業部 勞動部 交通部 國安會等等他們歷經了四次的實體的面對面的談判還有很多很多次的視訊的會議那目前這些會議還在持續進行當中近期間之前還在進行當中"},{"start":2747.666,"end":2769.155,"text":"雖然我們還沒有達到最後的協議但是就技術性的磋商比方說對等關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易便捷化以及供應鏈的韌性跟經濟安全這幾項的技術性的磋商已經大致完成"},{"start":2769.835,"end":2784.605,"text":"我們還沒有完成的是最後達成協議之前的總結會議總結會議完成那就是踏出了很快的第一步那這個部分我們還在努力那大家會問為什麼我們的時間速度會慢下來"},{"start":2785.586,"end":2808.005,"text":"因為第一個有很多的因素第一個是我們的總結會議還沒有完成第二個是我們是美國的第六大的貿易的逆差國所以我們過去對他的逆差2024年的逆差達到739億美金所以他必須在這個當中要尋求一個平衡點那我們也提出我方的立場"},{"start":2808.846,"end":2823.121,"text":"美方也提出美方的要求正在做這樣各項的協商那我們對美方美方對我們的逆差的739億當中有九成都來自半導體自動性產業以及電子零組件所以"},{"start":2824.664,"end":2852.939,"text":"會隨著還在談判的這個232特別條款當中還要進行若干的調查這個都有影響所以我們要完成總決心會議因為美方跟我的逆差大而且這個產品都跟232相關所以目前還在積極的會商當中但是我們採取最積極而且希望能夠達到國家最有利的方式來談判所以談判代表談判的方針最終四項就是維護國家利益"},{"start":2854.18,"end":2868.911,"text":"維護產業利益維護國民健康跟維護我們國家的糧食安全這四項原則是總統在歷史談話當中一而再再而三的交代四項原則是當作我們談判的最高標準這也是我們的核心原則"},{"start":2870.032,"end":2897.269,"text":"台美是一個供應鏈緊密的合作夥伴所以雙方對於經濟安全部分也持續的來互相的加強其中有高度共識的特別就是我們的違規轉運的部分我們有共同的理念要打擊起產地所以無論是高科技貨品出口的管制或是投資安全的經濟做法都是未來雙方強化產業合作的一個基礎我認為"},{"start":2899.45,"end":2927.015,"text":"打擊息產地也是維持我國製造業優勢擴大我們國際布局跟結合與美國跟世界先進國家研發製造市場人才的一個好的方式跟必要正確的途徑因此我們用這樣的方式用提高經濟安全的各項合作來打造台美高科技戰略夥伴關係這也是目前我們談判中的一個精神"},{"start":2928.871,"end":2951.972,"text":"最後我要提到無論是商業談判無論是朝野協商無論是國際談判它都有一個共通數商業談判需要高明的技巧朝野協商需要有取有捨有進有退國際談判那更要堅持國家的立場跟利益"},{"start":2952.95,"end":2976.429,"text":"因此國際的談判是難上加難所以我要特別感謝我們談判團隊不過這幾項都有一個共通點就是什麼時候才是最後條件的拿出就要到談判的最終在這個之前尤其是國際談判它的慣例是談判的細節還沒有達成"},{"start":2978.124,"end":2997.686,"text":"協議還沒有達成通常是不會完整來對外說明的因為達成協議之後我們一定會向國人也向社會向國會來說說明達成協議之後我們也一定依照我們的條約締結法等等要把這些"},{"start":2998.897,"end":3013.927,"text":"內容送交國會來審議所以國會保留是一個不可避免的法定程序也請大院能夠支持談判的整個內容同時國際談判通常一件談判"},{"start":3015.492,"end":3034.452,"text":"短則數月長則兩三年才能完成而這次美方的談判是在四個月當中要跟世界一兩百個國家其中的重要幾個它的貿易逆差國進行這種深度的談判在時間 程序以及進行的方式上都非常非常的艱難"},{"start":3035.333,"end":3059.525,"text":"我也感謝國人同胞跟大院的各位先進委員過去四個多月以來雖然關心雖然也有可能有所焦慮但我們始終相信我們談判代表在國家利益產業利益以及國人健康糧食健康安全上能夠謹守國家的立場嚴守國家的利益這一點我再一次代表談判團隊向國人表示最大的感謝"},{"start":3060.512,"end":3075.581,"text":"未來我們在完成談判代表完成整個協商之後會送請大院來就談判的內容進行國會保留的審議跟同意所以這個時候也再次要求也拜託各位我們也能夠依照"},{"start":3077.182,"end":3091.39,"text":"國際談判慣例的難度一方面給予我們談判代表信心一方面也為了解整個政府對談判過程當中及以後我們對產業支持方面所提出的各項政策甚至我們一起"},{"start":3092.775,"end":3117.655,"text":"來協助各個產業快速地適應國際官貿的新秩序我們一起來加強對國內產業的各項支持我們一起來提高未來國家在高科技各項方面的國際的競爭力我們一起讓台灣成為一個還是高科技關鍵地位關鍵技術領先的國家因此"},{"start":3118.596,"end":3137.783,"text":"特別也再一次想請求我們因應國際形勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例的修正案請大院緊速的來審議行政院會依據這個修正案的內容提出完整的特別預算再請大院通過我們就能用最快的速度讓"},{"start":3139.804,"end":3154.88,"text":"國內的產業得到支持讓產業能夠再度的走向國際為台灣未來的經濟打出國際的新的一條通路維持國家的競爭力以上報告請大家指教 謝謝好 謝謝左院長的報告"},{"start":3158.337,"end":3186.648,"text":"現在進行委員質詢每位委員巡大時間不超過15分鐘輪到質詢委員如果不在場視為棄權首先請吳委員私謠質詢謝謝主席有請卓院長也請鄭副院長一起"},{"start":3187.667,"end":3215.918,"text":"請卓院長 鄭副院長備詢吳委員好所有的團隊還有我們的談判代表大家都辛苦了卓院長您知道嗎今天是您這個會期第幾天來到立法院你有算過嗎"},{"start":3217.438,"end":3235.463,"text":"我是沒有算過我替您算過了每次來都很快樂好 第21天我喜歡你的正能量您是第21天單一會期來到立法院備詢這是前所未有代表行政團隊面對國會監督絕不逃避這是我們的責任就以專案報告"},{"start":3236.946,"end":3260.146,"text":"加上明天後天這個會期是七次專案報告也是史上新高這也代表國會關切的議題行政部門也絕對來直球對決而今天更是我們有史以來行政院的副院長第一次站上質詢台備詢台因為您要為我們的談判來對國人做更多的說明"},{"start":3261.109,"end":3277.436,"text":"那首先 真的這是最辛苦的內閣團隊卓院長也是史上最辛苦的行政院長 您同意大家都辛苦了那我自己也常常自嘲啊我是民進黨團有史以來最苦命的阿信幹事長"},{"start":3279.708,"end":3293.38,"text":"這段時間我們面臨了挫敗所以說內閣快速的要進行改組而我也認為行政立法一體立法院黨團也不可自外於這一次我們重整隊形"},{"start":3294.221,"end":3317.794,"text":"的這一個階段跟這一個陣容當中所以說我個人認為我也呼籲當行政部門來進行改組要反守為攻要主導議題同樣的立法院黨團我們也在重整隊形要擴大參與我們共同的目標就是一樣的"},{"start":3319.376,"end":3331.284,"text":"對內要強化整合在內閣是強化各部會的整合在立院黨團是強化五一戰隊之間意見的包容跟討論但是我們一致的對外"},{"start":3332.892,"end":3353.07,"text":"對在野黨 我們要增進溝通對外 面對中國 面對世界變局我們都要勇敢前進首先 我先給你們莫大的期許因為您也多次的請辭受到總統要求您繼續承擔的慰留"},{"start":3353.951,"end":3370.239,"text":"那這也是我對五一戰隊的自我鞭策我們首先先用這樣的正能量跟彼此的鼓舞來開啟今天的質詢那我上面下了一個標喔Never let a good crisis go to waste"},{"start":3370.959,"end":3388.608,"text":"是我在4月11號那時候也針對關稅的談判我做的質詢的題目我今天依舊沿用因為它依舊是重要的前提面對關稅的談判我們要化險為夷佈局未來我們要轉為維安"},{"start":3390.729,"end":3409.07,"text":"如果看在失敗主義者的眼中這一次美國開啟的全球關稅大作戰恐怕會是大災難但是如果看在做好準備的人的身上我們不當犧牲者我們要當獲利者在國際的"},{"start":3410.632,"end":3437.86,"text":"全新經貿的新秩序當中台灣要能夠搶得先機創造無可取代的地位首先這是我看待這一次國際談判非常重要的一個目標不是指因應眼前的談判的輸贏更是對準長城國家經貿發展的願景副院長您都同意您也是抱持這樣子的態度在進行談判的過程是不是"},{"start":3438.722,"end":3458.685,"text":"是謝謝委員我想首先感謝大院讓我個人今日能夠除了陪同院長也能夠上台來備詢來向大院來說明談判的情形那如剛剛卓院長所報告的目前我國取得談判的是一個階段性的結果"},{"start":3459.124,"end":3476.781,"text":"也就是原稅率加上對等關稅20%那談判團隊還在持續努力當中那我回國之後我們8月7號8月8號二度跟美方持續的視訊那就在上週五8月22號我們在進行第三次的視訊"},{"start":3477.822,"end":3491.314,"text":"所以這也表示台美雙方還在持續的談判當中那我們後續談判的目標如院長所宣示的我們要爭取更好更合理的對等關稅希望把20%的對等關稅再往下降"},{"start":3494.316,"end":3513.593,"text":"並且也要爭取不疊加原來的MFN原有的稅率另外因為我們的出口結構裡面超過七成是半導體及ICT產品美方正在232調查當中所以美方也希望美雙方需求232一併協商需要多一點時間討論所以我們一併爭取232關稅後續可能的優惠方案"},{"start":3521.74,"end":3544.254,"text":"這是我們後續談判的三大目標我們一定全力以赴好 謝謝副院長的說明所以您的談判 您領導的團隊就如同賴總統一再的定謀的不只是因應眼前的關稅談判長城的國際經貿是新秩序台灣無可取代的地位我們要搶得先機 下一頁"},{"start":3545.114,"end":3562.744,"text":"我回顧這145天以來當川普對全球開了這一槍其實no one is outsider180多個國家同受衝擊當時的在野黨一直說這是國難 下一頁但事實證明"},{"start":3564.265,"end":3582.123,"text":"這是全球都在承受衝擊而什麼是國難如果台灣的社會經貿的實力沒有底氣如果台灣的政府沒有充足的準備如果台灣的在野勢力並不忠誠恐怕才是真正的國難"},{"start":3583.649,"end":3601.287,"text":"但是可操之在我的部分我們全力以赴不可操之在我的部分我們強化溝通下一頁這145天以來我當時4月11號也是第一位朝野立委站上質詢台的立委代表"},{"start":3602.188,"end":3626.197,"text":"我感同身受我們談判團隊內外交迫先講在台灣的內部我們充斥著非常多在野勢力的唱衰我們承受著非常多不明就裡的謠言我們更面對著在野黨不斷地惡意地貼上黑箱的標籤我們來講唱衰好了"},{"start":3628.078,"end":3652.896,"text":"大家還記得四月份嗎當川普公布了這個關稅的這個衝擊的時候在野黨第一時間講的是什麼他們要罷免川普對美國報復要申請釋憲要停止一切對美國的投資更集中火力要求政府要強化開放對中國市場的投資"},{"start":3654.42,"end":3674.775,"text":"如果當時聽從藍白立委的意見我看適用中國不管從145%的對等關稅或是現在55%的對等關稅如果聽從藍白擁抱中國市場的老路這才是國難這才是災難就是4月份下一頁"},{"start":3675.535,"end":3699.861,"text":"我們來看看七八月份當暫時性關稅開始揭露了在野黨的委員們這些政治領袖們又開始說32%是嚴重的挫敗暫時性的關稅是一場騙局甚至民眾黨一再的操作這是黑箱資訊不公開但是事實證明下一頁"},{"start":3701.721,"end":3719.016,"text":"造謠謠言並不成立上週末的這個新聞報導居然能夠很鉅細靡遺的來說明現在談判的進程台灣將取消農產品汽車藥品的關稅全開放半導體ICT對美國投資2500億採購能源國防農產品高達3000億請問你們已經明確的澄清這是謠言嗎對不對副院長"},{"start":3730.175,"end":3746.832,"text":"是 我們在當天我們行政院經貿辦公室以及相關部會都有對社會來說明有關媒體所述的相關數字跟項目其實跟我們談判情形有所出入而且最重要是未經向經貿辦以及部會來查證"},{"start":3749.154,"end":3767.364,"text":"那我們也速度跟國人來說明現在談判還在持續進行當中一旦台灣和美方達成協議我們的協議一定會送國會審議也會向社會充分的說明所以這個謠言被打臉了下一個謠言呢美國要求台積電入股"},{"start":3768.612,"end":3796.471,"text":"郝麗嘉在魏哲嘉董事長親自出面證實美國政府並沒有也不會要求入股台積電不要擔心台積電變美積電當然我知道我們謹守分際我們不替台積電民間的企業來發言但是就以魏哲嘉董事長的發言再一次打臉了這些惡意操作的謠言所以講完唱衰講完謠言我們來講講黑箱喔"},{"start":3797.877,"end":3822.268,"text":"事實上我同意執政團隊必須竭盡一切的所能把所有的資訊一講再講多講都沒有關係當時我們被在野黨貼上談判黑箱是說我們並沒有對外說明關稅計算是疊加的我認為我們對社會的說明可以再加強但是我要對於在野黨"},{"start":3823.939,"end":3852.818,"text":"後代風向提出我很大的挑戰為什麼呢除了4月4號行政院團隊的關稅因應記者會上已經清楚說明就是疊加之外卓院長特別慎重4月7號邀請了朝野各個黨團的黨鞭進行政院再次說明我們的所有因應作為對不對也是在那場會議上您提出我們希望爭取在野委員來"},{"start":3854.019,"end":3882.566,"text":"合作推動我們的任性條例以及特別預算其實在4月7號當我們就在行政院的那個會議室裡頭我們的副院長也好院長也好楊珍妮代表也好再一次說明關稅的計算方式疊加就再一次的說明如果連在野黨的委員親自在場親自聆聽對外他還是要說這是黑箱我萬萬不可接受"},{"start":3883.854,"end":3912.149,"text":"所以我們看看台金院的張院長說的關稅疊加這個產業界跟學術界早就知道但我們都同意對社會擴大說明也包括中金院的連銘賢院長也說了關稅疊加這是原則台灣當然適用原則而不是適用例外所以我在這裡要說下一頁我們不只沒有黑箱我們做到史上前所未有的透明公開甚至是全球警戒"},{"start":3913.604,"end":3939.824,"text":"8月7號我們主動向國會揭露了關稅談判的保密協議院長這是全球警見吧世界各國副院長沒有任何一個國家國會要求國家出示這個保密協議我們主動揭露透明向國會說明感謝大院用機密會議的方式所以說這是全球警見的透明公開連保密協議都公開了"},{"start":3940.604,"end":3958.695,"text":"8月11號我們的專屬線上的網站上線了第一時間及時對於國會跟產業來揭露我們所有的政策因應以及今天8月25號即便談判中我們負責任向國會報告目前可以說明的部分而最終如果談判結束"},{"start":3959.795,"end":3979.629,"text":"國會保留我們一切資訊都會向國會公開而且要通過國會的審查跟監督所以這是史上沒有的透明公開更是全球沒有人做到的台灣做到了我請在野黨不要再用黑箱這種惡質的標籤貼在我們辛苦的談判團隊的身上下一頁"},{"start":3980.51,"end":4004.668,"text":"回到談判本身有很多不可操之在我的部分當然這是川普為了美國利益的優先美國的再工業化美國的解決他的貿易逆差當然也要解決他對中戰略的競爭下一頁而可操之在我的部分就是台灣的ICT產業全球稱霸的地位我們能夠爭取讓談判的戰線延長"},{"start":4007.95,"end":4036.245,"text":"所以說談得好跟談得快我們選擇談得好只要能夠繼續談就是一個好事代表我們能夠持續爭取這也是我執政黨團支持我們談判團隊不要設定所謂快談快好這種目標我們的目標是談得好讓全國產業都受惠但是國會不要成為談判的不利因素"},{"start":4037.445,"end":4057.806,"text":"剛剛院長所說的為了全球的投資安全為了全球的公平貿易為了全球打擊洗產地川普這一次是重中之重要不要再一次呼籲在野黨的委員應當撤回離島建設條例這種洗產地的條例因為這會造成我們談判的不利因素來院長"},{"start":4060.005,"end":4081.418,"text":"針對這個條例剛剛委員所說的行政院完全支持委員剛剛所說的我認為我們現在要展現國內團結一致就是我們對於這樣息產地違規轉運的房子我們是有能力有責任做好的這個雖然不直接對談判有利但展現一個保護我國產業也讓世界覺得這個區域的經濟安全我們是有責任的"},{"start":4081.658,"end":4107.819,"text":"所以國會切莫不只沒幫忙還幫到忙我再次呼籲離島建設條例不要強硬的來推動下一頁下一頁下一頁我後面還20頁沒辦法講來回到前一頁我用這個來做結論當全球都在擴大對美投資台灣就應當勇敢迎向國際經貿的新秩序抗拒不如早去"},{"start":4116.448,"end":4123.214,"text":"我支持你們用一個更長程的經貿共同的面向跟目標來看待對日制的關稅的談判"},{"start":4125.282,"end":4140.651,"text":"外界扭曲歪斗成為我們捧的大錢去揍美國我們要向社會呈現我們不是白白的捧錢去投資美國我們要做的是跟美國跟世界的各國一起來賺大錢"},{"start":4161.797,"end":4162.177,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員"},{"start":4171.516,"end":4185.781,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員 我們時間到了謝謝吳委員 謝謝左院長 曾副院長下一位 傅坤祺委員 徐宇貞委員 林倩祺委員聯合質詢 時間45分鐘"},{"start":4222.872,"end":4251.277,"text":"主席請卓院長請卓院長備詢部委員 學委員 林委員 三位委員好卓院長好經過了整整將近一年的時間整個國家空轉"},{"start":4253.203,"end":4281.523,"text":"不斷地衝刺從總統 院長 部會首長執政者的國會議員到執政者的所有的宣傳工具一連當中不斷地攻擊在野黨所謂中共同路人 所謂共匪立委讓台灣不斷地撕裂 撕裂再撕裂"},{"start":4282.52,"end":4311.665,"text":"要弱化在野監督的力量在昨天在前天兩天前人民已經做出了一個完整的決定左院長對於報載所有媒體報導去年1月13號總統大選結束以後1月14號賴總統跟您還有柯總召決定一年後"},{"start":4312.421,"end":4333.611,"text":"要推動大罷免希望能夠一黨專政然後現在終於所有的事情人民已經很清楚的告訴執政者並沒有這樣的事情哪一件事情沒有這樣的事1月13號 1月14號之後"},{"start":4336.885,"end":4362.226,"text":"總統或是跟任何人要推動大罷免這件事情並沒有這樣的事情但是當時媒體報宅的時候你們並沒有否認啊當時說的是對立法會跟兩院互動關係當時就應該要像現在告訴全國國人沒有這件事嘛對不對那當時為什麼不來否認好沒有關係現在講也可以"},{"start":4363.936,"end":4391.644,"text":"但是對於整個國家的空轉包括不斷的誣陷攻擊 再也立委現在人民已經做出了決定不管是有民進黨在台灣的獨裁專政亦或者是民進黨的國家能源政策人民已經給出了很清楚的答案對於內閣是不是要總辭"},{"start":4393.14,"end":4410.118,"text":"所以你講什麼看法總統已經說過7月26號之後我已經數次跟總統談論到這樣的話題我認為不是因為罷免不罷免的問題而是整個在政策推動上"},{"start":4411.813,"end":4438.241,"text":"過去那段時間的不順暢跟未來有沒有辦法順暢的推動這才是行政院該檢討的行政院不只是檢討過去那一段是未來我們要做什麼責任政治在哪裡責任政治在哪裡我希望總統您剛剛所說過去政策推動不順利政策推動不順利包括政策是否適當"},{"start":4440.267,"end":4468.268,"text":"第二個是否有完整的溝通第三個是否獨裁專段這三件事情你認為你做到了嗎第一個沒有獨裁專段第二個溝通必須加強第三個政策推動不順利是因為有些政策 行政院因為違憲之前我們有示愛難行再也黨"},{"start":4469.784,"end":4495.689,"text":"什麼時候溝通過了我們曾經到行政院裡面來談過話幾次至少有兩次以上所以卓院長在這一年多當中跟在野黨的溝通是兩次行政院透過執政黨團跟在野黨團的溝通那是每天都在進行的過去一年我們只衝刺看到"},{"start":4496.753,"end":4525.086,"text":"執政黨團不斷的造謠 不斷的申飛有什麼時候來溝通每個黨團都很努力 不斷的攻擊不斷的對在野立委的監督不斷用各種不堪入耳的方式的攻擊就光講今天的專案報告就好了4月2號發生美國川普總統對全世界"},{"start":4526.072,"end":4552.573,"text":"無差別的要求加碼關稅 對全世界的經濟衝擊國民黨團立刻要求 沈院長要到院報告到今天幾個月了 四個月 五個月執政黨團還在這裡護航 您來這裡報告多少次"},{"start":4553.493,"end":4582.257,"text":"我們當時就希望你來說清楚講明白我們得到的答案是什麼執政黨民進黨團堅決反對我們要再一次的表達不管心不甘情不願也好主動跟國人說明也好卓院長本來就應該在第一時間到國會來跟國人做一個報告即便是有很多內容是不能透露的"},{"start":4583.066,"end":4611.884,"text":"我們都可以尊重那要通過溝通大家了解以後相忍為國而不是在發生這麼大的事情以後五個月後才來報告所以 卓院長您對這一次全國國人民意就誠如賴總統所說更大的民意最新的民意已經出來了卓院長"},{"start":4614.124,"end":4618.921,"text":"內閣要不要總辭內閣的重要人士會做"},{"start":4620.407,"end":4648.431,"text":"主要人事的一些調整我跟總統提出過必須負起政治責任總統認為在這個時候局勢要穩定下來很多已經在推動的事情以及明年總預算的編列都要同時進行其實我認為在8月23總預算也已經編列完成了全國性的投票秩序良好那應該是一個時間但總統還是認為持續把工作做下去在總統的整個治國的理念之下他認為是最好"},{"start":4649.051,"end":4677.81,"text":"那麼我在這個原則底下我們就展開主要人事的調整第一個這一年多的執政以及國會以及國家以及台灣整體的內耗空轉已經非常的清楚人民你做了這樣的一個決定卓院長本席不是針對您這是一個民主國家最基本的風骨"},{"start":4680.236,"end":4695.594,"text":"在禮拜六晚上 卓院長就必須公開開記者會來表示內閣總詞這是最基本的至於總統要不要留 要不要公開留什麼理由來留 我們都尊重"},{"start":4696.909,"end":4723.844,"text":"但是你最基本的表態必須讓全國國人看見這不是表態的問題我已經向總統提出了這不是表態不表態這是真實認為責任正是國家不是您跟賴總統兩個人的國家是全民的你的態度必須要出來我們政治的考量跟政治的互動這是一種選擇世界所有媒體的報導跟我們最"},{"start":4725.261,"end":4752.231,"text":"寧靜的關係也最深厚的日本獨賣新聞對於企圖罷免在野黨台灣人民否決 再來東洋經濟 台灣政治今天一陷入嚴重的兩極化這是誰造成的沒有溝通 從來不溝通 霸道"},{"start":4753.971,"end":4783.119,"text":"這是執政者的標章再來學者日本小立委員表示賴清德也失去日本媒體的信任從讀賣到朝日都不樂見罷免對台灣不樂觀好 再來美國外交政策期刊呼籲川普"},{"start":4783.868,"end":4813.098,"text":"要約束台灣再來BBC針對執政黨說所謂在野立委是親中的大罷免如何撕裂了台灣再來王博台灣選民否決這次的大罷免卓院長"},{"start":4816.345,"end":4833.938,"text":"北溪講過很多次在這裡再一次的呼籲您身為國家的葛魁一年多來有多少的衝突但是你只有兩次兩次的溝通"},{"start":4837.861,"end":4862.075,"text":"不要為難國會議長禮拜六禮拜六本席看到賴總統對全國人民以及媒體的發問跟回答本席非常的意外當民進黨立法院黨團"},{"start":4863.59,"end":4885.635,"text":"再三的要求韓國瑜韓院長議事要中立不得介入任何的黨務賴總統竟然說要請卓院長跟韓院長溝通不要又把責任推到韓院長身上來報告委員 我跟韓院長溝通不是黨務啊是兩院互動模式是必須"},{"start":4887.332,"end":4915.181,"text":"必須讓各個政黨各個黨團包括貴黨黨團在內有很多人都有不同對您的施政很多人都有不同的意見我虛心接受不是你接不接受的問題你要去溝通的問題我們全面改進但是我有一句話今天我們在這裡對話應該是針對今天的主題如果是韓院長在的話大概會制止你這樣的發言希望要盡快的來溝通"},{"start":4916.854,"end":4936.061,"text":"如果韓院長再會制止你今天的發言為什麼不針對今天的主題啊這都是整個國家的互動最關鍵的一環卓院長啊 不要再閃避問題我沒有聽到任何問題今天的主題"},{"start":4938.238,"end":4964.236,"text":"剛剛講的都是台灣現在發生最嚴重的問題我們都了解 怎麼不是問題呢各位怎麼可以經過民意 用婆鳥心態 嬰兒盜鈴呢經過民意我們都充分了解我們也面對民意的改變了解了你的做法是什麼嘛所以本席剛剛在這裡苦口婆心請卓院長不要再把責任推到國會議長身上"},{"start":4965.612,"end":4991.146,"text":"你們對各黨的溝通是什麼賴總統到現在為止既沒有跟國民黨主席民眾黨主席坐下來談行政院長也沒有針對每一件國家重大的事情跟在野黨保持暢旺的溝通本席希望如果正如你所說"},{"start":4993.72,"end":5021.64,"text":"蔡總統堅持要留任 左院長我們尊重但未來的溝通請拿出誠意用常態性的溝通對每一件事情能夠有一個清楚 完整讓在野黨能夠了解大家可以共體時艱但是我們不能瞎子摸象內容完全不了解我們要怎麼樣來支持"},{"start":5022.998,"end":5049.738,"text":"要更何況要怎麼樣來背書我希望卓榮泰卓院長希望你改變過去一年多的戰鬥模式現在必須真正成為中華民國的行政院長而不是民進黨的行政院長我們曾經說過要做四項調整調整國家財政體質調整施政的先後順序調整兩院互動以及調整內閣人事我們逐步展開"},{"start":5051.547,"end":5078.939,"text":"本黨團拭目以待今天不是個人的施政總諮詢今天是專案報告我們三位包括徐議貞委員林倩琦委員都是代表國民黨團來就教於卓榮泰卓院長好我們看一下這個"},{"start":5083.478,"end":5107.347,"text":"昨天的聯合報跟中國時報 報頭我們就不再提這個事情本期現在要請教一下現在對美關稅 地板是20%還要加上WTO相關的這些稅率"},{"start":5109.434,"end":5136.965,"text":"再加上台幣升值大幅升值對外銷產業的重創基本上來說這個就是莫衷一事在一黨完全看不懂執政者今天的談判如此的失敗日本 韓國 台灣最大的競爭者都是15%的上限"},{"start":5137.927,"end":5156.203,"text":"天花板因為他們已經達成協議我們20%是地板我們還在努力爭取更合理的稅率同一個時間從4月2號開始各國開始跟美國溝通我們並不是在不是在同一個起跑點上大家都在同一個時間面對這個問題如果日本韓國已經達成協議"},{"start":5162.233,"end":5177.118,"text":"台灣還沒有達成協議這個基本上就已經失職我剛剛已經在原因說過就已經失職因為新版關稅已經實施已經實施由不得時不待人"},{"start":5178.891,"end":5206.661,"text":"台灣產業已經面對這樣的衝擊我剛剛已經說過了因為我們的密差比較大而且232對我們的產業是比較影響多我們居於這樣關鍵性的領先地位這兩個部分都是請告訴國人什麼時候可以談好談判是雙方2月1號到現在已經快一個月了我們國內的產業已經忍受到將近一個月的高關稅"},{"start":5208.412,"end":5237.319,"text":"對產業支持我們先用以緩計及方式在特別預算出來之前我們用以緩計及的方式先向你所提出的881加51931立法院也支持現在但是我們不能永無止境的等待我們尊重左院長你的說法很多都在談判過程中都還在保密好"},{"start":5239.745,"end":5263.741,"text":"請問什麼時候可以Daylight是什麼時候什麼時候可以做最後的確認要不要請談判代表來說一下現在努力的進行你不瞭解狀況嗎我當然知道 談判代表就請你直接回答本席好不好隨時都有向院長來做報告是不是也讓我跟委員來做一個報告從8月1號以來我們跟美方有繼續進行三次的視訊會議本席只請教先回答本席的問題什麼時候可以談完"},{"start":5264.281,"end":5279.28,"text":"我們當然希望越快越好那談判取決於雙方希望是代表什麼意思回溯我們在8月1號前沒能達成協議最重要的一個因素就是因為我國出口七成是半導體及ICT尤其占逆差的九成"},{"start":5279.781,"end":5304.93,"text":"那美方也表示這個項目在美方232的調查底下那也連動美方232關稅的政策方向所以台美需要一些時間持續就對等跟232一併對談 一併並談所以我們持續在這個談判中那我們希望越快越好那美國財政部長所以今天到立法院正式專案報告是給"},{"start":5308.973,"end":5333.104,"text":"有夢最美 希望相隨希望 希望產業都絕望了 你們還在希望我們全力以赴 越快越好那關於產業現在受到的衝擊院長也指示 你把外交辭令帶到這裡來人民快要活不下去了報告委員 我們上禮拜五還在視訊會議"},{"start":5334.941,"end":5351.468,"text":"這本來就該做的事情不需告訴我嘛你們本來就該做的事情嘛你說 談判什麼時候進行上禮拜五還在談表示這個談判一直在進行當中有需要 談判代表會直飛美國為什麼有一個這麼無能的政府嘛什麼叫希望嘛"},{"start":5353.319,"end":5368.849,"text":"我外交執行辦到立法院來嘛談判小組我們正在全力的進行談判當中那由於台美雙方在232的議題有關半導體跟ICT產業是相對於其他國家232的項目相對於複雜跟變動性我們全力不振在談判積極努力當中如果你帶來的只是希望兩個字請回"},{"start":5381.857,"end":5386.687,"text":"不會 我們會用結果來證明我們的努力兩位請回"},{"start":5387.932,"end":5411.162,"text":"告訴我們就是希望 兩位請回我們全力以赴 繼續努力爭取最好的結果 爭取更好的合理的稅率我們也必須要向大院做以上的報告報告委員 我剛剛說過國際談判難上加難最後的時間就是雙方條件多你們能力不足嘛 講白了就是這樣嘛那本席在這裡"},{"start":5415.086,"end":5431.177,"text":"一定要很強烈的讓院長了解台積電我們一分鐘來回顧一下中華民國政府在1974年民國63年當時的經濟部長我再強調一次經濟部長孫運璿"},{"start":5439.247,"end":5460.331,"text":"帶了七人小組在豆漿店裡面開啟了台灣的科技奇蹟在65年跟RCA簽約派了一批優秀的科技人才到美國去學習 再來"},{"start":5463.1,"end":5491.464,"text":"在民國74年成立了台灣集體電路公司台積電並邀請張忠謀來擔任負責人卓院長 這是我們台灣的手心我們的心骨肉台灣人民的心骨肉我們的政府跟全民所培養出來的"},{"start":5492.322,"end":5510.191,"text":"給了各種的優惠前面來留住人才這個台積電在民國76年1987年台積電公司成立請問一下周院長當時的李國鼎經濟部長跟現在的經濟部長"},{"start":5522.224,"end":5543.215,"text":"剛剛請辭的郭志輝面臨這4月2號到現在為止4 5 6 7 8 五個月請問台積電當時去美國跟美國總統川普在白宮開記者會的時候郭志輝部長說他不知道"},{"start":5547.759,"end":5553.718,"text":"那再請問我們所有對美關稅談判過程當中經濟部長有沒有參與"},{"start":5555.543,"end":5579.042,"text":"我們提出的對產業支持都是經濟部所提出來的我們對工業的出口進口對產業支持經濟部我說對美談判他有沒有參加嗎回答我問題有這麼困難嗎我們對工業出口的稅率 進口的稅率等等我們都是經濟部所提出來我們用這個稅率去進行談判的怎麼會沒有談判呢那你就告訴本席他有參與就好了嘛"},{"start":5580.248,"end":5583.618,"text":"對不對 當時的經濟部長是製造台灣奇蹟的人現在的經濟部長一問三不知"},{"start":5590.287,"end":5616.162,"text":"報告委員 每個時代的經濟部長都要面對不同的挑戰現在時代的經濟部長比較不重要啦可以不用參與就對了啦當時一個李國鼎 孫運璿可以造成台灣的奇蹟我到工業區的時候我都會感謝當時李國鼎當時孫運璿院長 李國鼎部長當時帶領那批年輕工程師締造台灣目前的高科技產業我都清楚這樣講過"},{"start":5618.763,"end":5641.534,"text":"這個時代的經濟部長不一樣啦 比其了解現在是廁所裡的花瓶啦完全不是核心 也沒有參與任何所以第一時間所有全國媒體問他他都不知道這個事情再問他說川普說要投資台積電要投資兩千億 三千億他說這是假新聞這就是現在執政團隊的經濟部長淪為國際的笑話"},{"start":5645.421,"end":5672.706,"text":"我對郭志輝部長抱屈啊完全排除在外的核心排除核心之外的人並非如此何必讓他當經濟部長委員你這樣子講真的我也要替他抱屈並非如此再來本席請教一下國家安全法第三條國家的核心關鍵技術之營業秘密台積電是不是是不是"},{"start":5673.698,"end":5700.828,"text":"是不是適用國安法第三條是國家核心關鍵技術台積電不僅對國家重要對世界重要它當然是國家的核心關鍵技術好 謝謝所以再來我們公司對外投資處理辦法第六條不與核准影響國家安全對國家經濟發展有不利的影響"},{"start":5702.766,"end":5731.389,"text":"請問台積電是不是對外投資如果核心技術移走是不是對台灣會造成相當大的影響下一頁不管依照國家安全法第三條的第一項第三項還是公司國外投資處理辦法第五條請問一下"},{"start":5733.206,"end":5737.192,"text":"卓院長 台積電什麼時候要送神"},{"start":5738.697,"end":5766.454,"text":"台積電要送審由台積電台積公司他們提出來要送審的時間由他們提出但是我們依據的就是包括委員剛剛所說的原則在內我們希望他在台灣搶但他經過他審慎頭思考要世界佈局的時候只要合乎我們的條件政府並不會阻擋但是我們要求跟留台灣我們要求台灣加一我們台灣要求關鍵技術要留在台灣核心的研發留在台灣這個原則不變"},{"start":5767.755,"end":5795.54,"text":"對美有N-1嗎有N-1嗎我們對台灣N-1在台灣要外國投資的 台灣不能減少對國外投資有沒有N-1美國的政策我不瞭解美國是不是N-1台灣對外的投資生產技術關鍵要關鍵技術有沒有前一代出去投資有沒有台灣一定要保持最領先的位置所以對外國的投資都不應該把核心技術往外所以對外投資"},{"start":5797.025,"end":5826.094,"text":"有確實執行恩檢因嗎在審查投審的審查過程當中一定是嚴格要求這關係到台灣的經濟命脈跟國家販產跟國家安全台灣日本美國更不要說三座晶圓廠兩座先進封裝廠主要研發團隊都搬過去來我們看一下台日韓關稅對美投資承諾的比較我們看一下日本"},{"start":5827.022,"end":5855.096,"text":"五千五百億美金韓國三千五百億美金台灣大概多少億美金這雙方的都有提出一些方案還沒有達成協議所以現在沒有做任何實質承諾卓院長您還是用你的老辦法再次在國會告訴國人說還沒有達成協議好那本席給你一個強烈的建議日本"},{"start":5856.246,"end":5872.732,"text":"承諾的5500億美金是因為日本的GDP 4.1兆美元他大概是用國家GDP的13%承諾投資韓國南韓1.87兆美元的GDP投資18.7到美國台灣只要是2500億美金就32%我們的GDP"},{"start":5886.466,"end":5891.709,"text":"3000億美金是38%4000億美金是51%我們台灣的GDP本席絕對不同意你們最後談這個協議是喪權辱國讓台灣世代都無法承受的這樣的財政壓力"},{"start":5910.64,"end":5934.057,"text":"好的 謝謝委員這一段我記住我請談判代表特別把副委員所提的這一段詳細記錄出來我們在談判的時候要用這樣的數據對外去做說明這個副委員教談判代表的內容如果談判有成我們一起為這樣的結果大家一起來享受這個成果如果談判遇到困難我們也希望大家共同來承擔這是當然雖然是民進黨在執政"},{"start":5938.547,"end":5960.463,"text":"但是這些發生問題全民都要承擔在野黨當然願意給我們的政府當靠山不過我跟委員講這一句要談出最好的條件這一些數據跟依據各國GDP的比較我們在談判代表都生計在心都生計在心也都用這樣來做依據的"},{"start":5963.53,"end":5988.955,"text":"不管對美投資2500億、3000億、4000億美金有沒有包括台積電的2000億有沒有台積電我知道它是實際精準一點數字是1650億目前1650嘛川普大定義宣布2000了嘛那他應該把它沒有關係1650還是2000億都可以請問有沒有包括在對美投資裡面"},{"start":5989.622,"end":6011.74,"text":"中華民國最美投資的這整個區塊有沒有就我政府立場任何一家國家的產業去投資都當作是我們國家出去的投資就我政府的立場這是包含在內嘛我們的立場是希望談判上一定要堅持美方有它的方式跟它時程上的斷定另外我們中油採購的阿拉斯加600萬噸的天然氣有沒有包含在內"},{"start":6012.813,"end":6037.775,"text":"目前這個還在初步的整個開發計畫還沒有完全成熟是在找一些合作投資的對象國家而已我們是表示基於能源安全我們願意購買更多安全的能源總院長 希望購買更多安全的能源 謝謝本席在這裡 希望您確認一個事情"},{"start":6039.946,"end":6066.09,"text":"在你承諾美國要簽署協議之前我希望你承諾在對美簽署協議之前要把完整的協議內容不是協議內容而已對國內產業所有的衝擊還有民生的影響這份報告送到立法院 再過來"},{"start":6066.926,"end":6095.046,"text":"我們談判過程絕對不能降低我們食安的標準還有標示等等我們不能降標國人健康跟糧食安全是四大原則裡面重要兩項另外兩個就是維持國家的利益跟產業的利益對於現在20%疊加關稅往上架往上架我們政府所有紓困的方式清單"},{"start":6097.145,"end":6104.819,"text":"要盡快送到立法院到時要一併送來立法院在修正條例當中原來的條例以及預算當中對國內產業解放是怎麼樣"},{"start":6108.595,"end":6136.289,"text":"要必須很完整送到立法院來可以嗎在任性條例以及修正案當中以及未來的特別預算裡面我們會強烈的來說明那當然如果委員提出任何的詢問我們各部會一定加強說明不僅讓國會瞭解也讓各產業瞭解這才是重點我們看一下齁當時你想台灣非常非常大的改變台灣政治方向也讓民進黨能夠順利執政當時台南花的訴求我們看一下"},{"start":6136.943,"end":6165.897,"text":"在這個地方我們還要重申兩岸協議建立條例的堅持的五大立法原則包括公民參與包括國會監督人權保障資訊公開以及政府負責第二點我們的成果我們的訴求是先立法再審查退 退 黑曉福報退退 黑曉福報退 退好 總院長過去是先立法再審查"},{"start":6167.348,"end":6189.139,"text":"現在我們完完全全都不知道它的內容是什麼那是立監督兩岸的法兩岸監督條例的法現在這個不是啊對外只要把台灣的核心辦出去通通是一樣影響到台灣的生存發展 卓院長"},{"start":6190.202,"end":6218.478,"text":"不要迴避這些問題台灣核心關鍵技術建設技術不會往外移我們至少保持最領先的這個世代這個是政府跟業界共通有的共識大家也會遵守 本席現在要給您一個非常大的一個建議對美的談判總院長要加油也給鄭麗君副院長本席知道您談判很辛苦但是要盡快有結果 不能讓人民"},{"start":6219.81,"end":6248.473,"text":"永遠在空等苦等本席在這裡強烈的建議當川普大帝要我們投資美國我們的政府如果是投資一千億美金舉例我們希望美國附帶的條件給他們的條件必須要提供華爾街的融資舉例來講阿拉斯加我們要投資"},{"start":6250.967,"end":6259.354,"text":"不管是他的建設 建構阿拉斯加輸氣管線 整個設備441美金如果我們要投資的話 還是預購未來的600萬噸請美國提供融資我們投資1000億 請他融資900億或是800億美金"},{"start":6281.049,"end":6308.886,"text":"就是一個方式同時也希望這家公司能夠美國要求我們投資的公司跟項目請他們用公司債的方式發CP有保證投報率我們來購買他的CP一切的建設由他自行操作但是投報率必須高於"},{"start":6310.336,"end":6318.817,"text":"他們給我們的貸款的利息這才能確保台灣的經濟不會被損耗掉"},{"start":6321.192,"end":6345.477,"text":"學長可以嗎阿拉斯天然氣的投資案不是美國單獨或是美國跟台灣兩國是一個國際性世界性現在都在討論的也多數國家提出興趣國際性更應該要這麼做我認為會有一道標準我認為會有一個標準是各國可以通用或是可以大體通用的一個方式那我們當然站在國家立場"},{"start":6346.337,"end":6374.856,"text":"委員所提的 我們都曾經這樣的設想過許多的方案 但還不到那個時候本席跟你強烈建議 要這麼做這個才不會拖垮台灣的財政跟台灣的產業就談判的方式來講 我們現在還沒有到那個程度我們不會輕易提出 既然是一個多國成立的公司更應該讓美國政府用國家的力量讓這家公司能夠盡快的"},{"start":6375.95,"end":6404.702,"text":"在美國上市在美國IPO發行公司在有保障的投報必須高於華爾街所提供的銀行利息才能讓我們國家的經濟立於不敗之地左院長請你慎思再來我們現在AI產業要代表我們整個國家在未來世界的科技發展裡面還在領先群"},{"start":6406.61,"end":6432.656,"text":"要用多少的電力啊所以你講電力就是國力就是戰力我們如果沒有電的話我們現在的配比80%火力發電7%火力發電大家用肺發電本期希望給你建議這一次對美的投資"},{"start":6437.537,"end":6463.762,"text":"前天希望重啟河山台灣人民跟不希望 不同意重啟河山是三倍的民意 三倍的民意因為大家不希望用昂貴的電讓國家沒有競爭力本席希望您這次對美談判吧"},{"start":6464.833,"end":6493.305,"text":"最先進 最安全全世界都期待的小型核能也把它列入投資或是政府必須購買的項目裡面可以讓台灣的電力不遺潰乏讓全世界最先進的產業科技產業能夠走進台灣讓台灣能夠吸收更多的這個國際的投資能夠走進來第一個 他們就問有沒有電力左院長可以把它納入嗎"},{"start":6494.383,"end":6523.324,"text":"我們說過新的核能技術總統也講過 先進的核能技術都是未來我們可以開放討論接受學習的目標它如果真的可以解決安全的問題沒有核廢料的問題而我們共同都有社會高度的共識這個就會成為未來台灣能源政策一種新的思考模式所以院長台灣不是世界最先進的國家先進的國家它的能源是怎麼使用怎麼配比"},{"start":6524.042,"end":6542.913,"text":"這是台灣政府要好好來學習的不要一味的用教條式的話術這個人民已經投完票了請尊重民意做政策的調整我們尊重結果 相信科學我們願意來共同討論"},{"start":6553.16,"end":6574.538,"text":"直接拆穿這個世紀謊言什麼風電啊 太陽能啊我們希望先進國家的思維是什麼我們不要還在買青黃茶他是對他國內講他沒有拆穿民進黨的謊言民進黨的政策我們會知道要跟國家與時俱進我們會做相同的討論"},{"start":6575.285,"end":6601.514,"text":"他在講他國內的風電太陽能是世紀謊言嘛那跟我們這邊你們的堅持不是一樣嗎你們堅持要風電太陽能嘛他講的世紀謊言那不是戳破大家講的嗎本席尊重你不要再那個嘛 對不對不要再背離民意嘛也不要背離產業嘛要把他們的產業都趕出去嘛 對不對我們看一下一下價格"},{"start":6603.069,"end":6628.927,"text":"外購風電6.59元 台電公布太陽能光電4.87元 可能發電1.38元院長 希望這一張 您貼在床頭每天睡覺前看一下 台灣要怎麼發展人民怎麼生存 請重視一下再看看我們現在用費發電"},{"start":6631.789,"end":6656.236,"text":"我們排炭連續9年破9000萬噸要台灣人民用廢發電人民已經做出了選擇請政府適可而止好不好那我們現在再討論一下我們的碳排量是逐年在下降台電提出過多次的精準的數據可以提供給委員做參考現在時間很有限國防預算9495億創新高"},{"start":6660.53,"end":6684.818,"text":"這當然包括這次對美的包裹這有沒有包括這次對美的包裹所有這些軍工採購都在裡面有沒有這個是明年的總預算加上部分過去的特別預算為數不多就是總預算但是我們採行的是北約的通案的算法把海巡 退府都加進來才達到這個數字現在GDP是3.3%"},{"start":6688.16,"end":6697.485,"text":"我們明天是佔3.3%本席在這裡給你建議代表國民黨團2001年阿扁執政當時2377億的國防預算現在9495億國防預算剛好4倍當時的人均"},{"start":6717.659,"end":6735.132,"text":"GDP是13400美元現在是34000美元我們的經濟成長只有2.5倍但是我們的國防預算增加了4倍還不包括我不曉得"},{"start":6736.437,"end":6748.53,"text":"9月份會不會又送了一個大禮包來報告委員我說過了我們現在的算法是採取北約模式把退府把海巡等等加進來把資安加進來才達到這個9000多億請問卓院長你把這個加進來2001年阿扁執政這些沒有加進來嗎那時候沒有採北約模式是我們原來的數字是"},{"start":6761.725,"end":6789.794,"text":"當時 請問一下 當時沒有退幅嗎但是沒有加進來 算國防預算沒有關係本席現在在提醒您的是我們經濟成長只有2.5倍不管你現在是4倍的國防預算增加還是3.5倍的國防預算增加還是3倍也好都趕不上經濟成長的腳步周院長 本席要特別提醒您一下"},{"start":6792.289,"end":6811.56,"text":"1960年到1990年美國跟蘇聯的爭霸美國用圍堵的政策讓蘇聯軍備競賽經濟被圍堵用一樣的軍費大家火拼到最後經濟跟不上30年時間蘇聯因為經濟崩潰而解體"},{"start":6817.102,"end":6841.631,"text":"如果我們今天沒有足夠的經濟實力來充實我們的國防卓院長卓院長這不只對我們國家的財政是沉重的負擔更對我們所有民生所有的這些知識都會遭到排擠卓院長本席在這裡要特別"},{"start":6842.629,"end":6870.49,"text":"這個故事本席要再講一次報告委員兩句話我們是基於國家的主權安全的維護考量到我們的財政能力所以我們有很多包括不對稱戰爭的因素我們採取國家對國防的需求所以總統在2月就提出了所以國軍將士加急兩萬塊還是不給總統在今年事業已經核定了國軍的加急各類的加急我們希望能夠"},{"start":6875.249,"end":6884.181,"text":"這兩萬塊 國軍加起的從一萬到三萬本席希望在預算書送到立法院來的時候本席要看見沒有強健的國軍"},{"start":6885.953,"end":6912.817,"text":"因為為國犧牲奮戰買再多的武器都是恍然很抱歉這個在預算沒有編列但是我們說過我們提出釋憲釋憲結果之後對不起釋憲的結果公告你就要實施你實施的同時你可以去釋憲請依法不要違法在釋憲結果之後釋憲是你的權利我們可以但是要依法先實施編或不編如果編會同時補足本席在這裡最後苦口婆心"},{"start":6916.398,"end":6942.813,"text":"50年前東南亞經濟最強盛的國家叫做菲律賓但是出到一個馬可思總統他的腐敗讓菲律賓人三代為奴台灣三代人的努力我們一定要守住一定要守住希望卓院長 腰桿挺直跟美國人談判 好不好我們堅持國家立場另外徐委員跟林委員有任何的指教"},{"start":6944.244,"end":6969.239,"text":"好 謝謝副委員 許委員還有林委員的質詢謝謝卓院長下一位我們請陳昭之委員質詢謝謝主席 有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":6986.912,"end":7003.81,"text":"陳委員好院長您從12號到明天26號短短兩週當中您要來立法院做六個專題報告辛苦院長了謝謝這是我們行政的責任我希望能夠把議題講得清楚大家一起來支持"},{"start":7004.15,"end":7030.999,"text":"我自己也在不到一周當中就跟院長您做這個詢答兩次我想國事如麻百事待局就是大家辛苦了院長今年四月台灣正值清明節那美國宣布了新的關稅政策四月四日的時候您帶領行政院的同仁開了一個記者會那時候您就知道美國提高關稅的一個重要目的就是要打掉紅色供應鏈"},{"start":7032.495,"end":7052.705,"text":"所以在行政院的記者會上您提到台灣過去幾年推出的投資台灣三大方案吸引台商回國來投資或是前往東南亞、歐洲或是美洲設廠目的是要符合非紅供應鏈的產業安全需求"},{"start":7053.425,"end":7079.296,"text":"也就是說除了分散風險之外就是要去除打掉紅色供應鏈我相信行政院知道美方川普總統非常重視這一塊這件事情所以你們才會特別提出來我想先請教卓院長我這樣的理解正確嗎沒有錯 後來也證實在雙方技術性挫傷裡面的一項就是經濟安全他們認為很重要 尤其台灣在"},{"start":7080.865,"end":7097.207,"text":"地緣政治第一線跟中國非常的接近有很多的產品互相交流密切所以他希望台灣能夠守住這個民主供應鏈的第一發道防線那到目前為止行政院對於去除紅色供應鏈做了哪些努力有沒有成效呢"},{"start":7098.015,"end":7123.457,"text":"我們有事前事後事中各項包括財政部包括經濟部的一些措施事前我們要加強的審查事中我們要加強的成效成效我們現在這個成效在目前來看我們一步一步達到的階段性所以現在很多的廠商從中國離開他可能去到南向國家"},{"start":7123.925,"end":7153.705,"text":"也有可能就回到台灣來那這個就變成我們在未來的供應鏈上會比較安定我特別去搜尋一下您對於有關紅色供應鏈的發言今年3月13號您說脫離紅色供應鏈很快就會看到實際作為還說要建立一個民主的產業供應鏈要讓全世界有門國家能夠脫離紅色的供應鏈建立一個非紅的民主供應鏈這些口號聽起來非常的響亮建立一個非紅的民主"},{"start":7155.467,"end":7163.56,"text":"但實際上台灣各個產業對於紅色供應鏈的緊密程度跟脫離程度請問行政院有掌握嗎"},{"start":7164.531,"end":7189.561,"text":"我們很多的產業各不同的產業包括工具機的產業裡面它還是有過去傳統來有一些中國的零組件院長的意思是說你們掌握我們都有到地方去了解那我們希望這個事情我們很希望能夠展現出來一個具體的措施跟進度但是我們也要協助廠商來做市場或是整個供應鏈的一個調整或轉移"},{"start":7189.881,"end":7212.706,"text":"老實說這個口號來治國是容易的這不是口號 都已經在做不過請經濟部能夠說明但是如果要落實如果要其實很幸福經濟部說這不是口號跟委員報告其實我們財政部跟經濟部在進出口的一些資訊的掌握其實都有針對一些特別異常的一些從大陸進來的產品做一些監控"},{"start":7213.126,"end":7231.733,"text":"我接下來會去資料請教坦白說這是一個可能會很辛苦甚至很痛苦的一個過程甚至會有壓力會有流失選票的壓力但是我必須要說執政者就是要擔當就是要擔當這樣的事情那請問院長脫離紅色供應鏈的目標什麼時候可以達成你有這個時程或時間點嗎"},{"start":7233.615,"end":7251.027,"text":"我們會照目前在財政部事前事中事後嚴審的這個方式把他的數據都找出來他審查了多少個這個廠商找到多少貨品我們會循序的去找到他的源頭來改變這個事實那這個目前在進行當中"},{"start":7251.987,"end":7281.027,"text":"我查詢行政院各部會最近一次在立法院進行和紅色供應鏈相關的專題報告我發現上一次是2021年經濟委員會那有安排相關的議程我拜讀了經濟部國發會國安局還有陸委會的報告很多報告都在談甲外資針中資中資挖角我國的人才等等其中國發會他的報告裡面提到積極協助台商回流"},{"start":7281.787,"end":7301.12,"text":"加速供應鏈的重組進一步強化對抗紅色供應鏈的產業動態 動能還有要形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈請問院長 形塑完整的上中下游的產業供應鏈從2019年開始啟動的台商回流您認為做到了嗎 好幾年了我們請國發會來講一下現在的進展"},{"start":7310.767,"end":7337.566,"text":"我想我們推動台商回流的方案裡面最重要就是希望我們在中國大陸的廠商可以回到台灣來生產我們投資台灣三大方案推動以後我發現其實伺服器還有我們電子五哥的很多的企業都回到台灣來生產然後建立出台灣自主的產業供應鏈是有進度的嗎是的 現在已經有兩兆多的投資回到台灣"},{"start":7338.386,"end":7364.313,"text":"但是我想要跟院長和大家說明我實際看到說可以說是沒有上週諮詢我也有引用這段話我指出這個報導工具機大佬也就是台灣工具機繼林組建工會的名譽理事長許文憲他這樣說下面都是他講的話美國關稅的真正意圖是要圍堵中國製造要各國去除紅色供應鏈結果台灣卻是連工具機組產業都大量"},{"start":7365.393,"end":7391.332,"text":"使用這個紅色供應鏈來降低跟您主見來降低它的這個製造成本對美國來說這是他說的話台灣就是紅色供應鏈的參與者獲利者只要沒有斷掉紅色供應鏈的話美國對台灣藉由關稅的制裁是不會停止的那台灣送再多的這個台積電給美國也是沒有用我今天再請教院長一次您同意許理事長的看法嗎"},{"start":7392.262,"end":7410.694,"text":"跟委員報告其實徐理事長他本身他也是經營工具機的一個先進你同意他的看法嗎其實他這一席話在工具機的內部也引起了很多的一個討論事實上我們國產的工具機的這些業者"},{"start":7411.354,"end":7429.603,"text":"大部分用的都還是以我們國內的供需機業者他所生產的MIT的產品為主所以我想這個部分我要談的是說政府如果沒有處理的話斷掉我國各產業的紅色供應鏈的問題還有零組件取緻紅色供應鏈的嚴重的問題"},{"start":7430.583,"end":7452.458,"text":"那行政院過去說的 行速上中下游的這個供應展鏈就是一個空話就是一個口號治國啊而且台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合那業界為了節省成本那從紅色供應鏈帶上去的林子健這句話我覺得我們修正一下台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合這句話絕對不是正確這樣子會讓我們在未來對國際非常難以交代"},{"start":7455.54,"end":7482.901,"text":"美方透過AIT 透過美國在來協會他們這些資訊掌握得一清二楚啊但是沒有說台灣產業跟紅色供應鏈緊密結合我們就是知道過去傳統上有一些零組件會用到所以我們現在極力在改變這個事件如果行政院沒有落虎沉舟的決心去改變這個問題那我想美國降低台灣關稅這個意願就非常低啦所以我還是再請教您一次請問您的目標何時能夠達成呢"},{"start":7484.229,"end":7509.221,"text":"我們在跟美方談判的時候談判團隊當談到經濟安全的時候都會把我們現在包括財政部以及國發會剛剛所提的數據都會跟美國表示我們努力的過程是這樣子我們來看一下數字鄭州市我讀到這則新聞日本今年7月對美出口額跟去年7月同期相比下滑了10.1%請問院長您覺得這對台灣是個警訊嗎"},{"start":7513.303,"end":7527.737,"text":"世界任何國家經濟情勢的變化我們都會注意日本掉了10.1%院長您知道台灣今年7月對美出國總額跟去年同期相比您知道是增加還是下降呢我們應該是增加的"},{"start":7531.049,"end":7557.109,"text":"請院長看這個數字我去查了官網網站上的統計數字台灣今年7月跟去年同期相比增幅達62.8%去年7月出口的美國總值是114.5億美元今年7月是186.45億美元和日本的衰退下滑對比台灣反而是增加的但是我想請問院長您認為台灣這樣的成績亮眼嗎你滿意嗎"},{"start":7560.302,"end":7577.149,"text":"我們對產業的努力非常的肯定但是這個原因就在於美國需要高度的很多AI產品台灣從大陸中國回來之後的廠商從台灣出去都算在台灣的這個產值裡面這個就是造成雙方現在關係必須要彈性"},{"start":7577.489,"end":7591.822,"text":"你看到的是單一的數字我再請你看總體的數字上一頁簡報是7月同期增加62.8%看起來成績不錯但是如果你把這個相關數字放在總體來看從今年1月到7月跟同期相比"},{"start":7592.745,"end":7605.062,"text":"我覺得院長你頭會沒要收因為事實上從今年1月下旬川普就任總統以後台灣出口到美國的總值就開始增加2月增加了65.62%一點都沒有輸給7月但是4月2號"},{"start":7609.108,"end":7622.192,"text":"川普宣布新的關稅政策後當月的出口總值就只掉到了只增加29.45%可是5月跟6月請院長看卻飆升到87.31%跟90.88%院長認為為什麼5月6月會有這個狀況呢當然4月大家存在一種觀望的態度後來之後"},{"start":7633.578,"end":7655.556,"text":"可能對方的需求也增加了希望在趕一個時間點上能夠盡量把關稅在比較大家可以預測的情況底下貨品能夠出去所以造成這樣一個所謂搶單塞港的問題答案 我認為個人答案是因為4月9號川普宣布說延後90天實施嘛所以這個業者趕緊趕工啊這個生產出口到美國"},{"start":7656.317,"end":7676.259,"text":"但是在7月的時候這個數字雖然比同期是增加62.8可是如果你要跟前兩個月相比5月跟6月它開始下滑那你看到這樣的現象跟數字我認為台灣如果真的被課以20%加N的高關稅那出口美國種子勢必會直直落啊熊院長你怎麼解讀這個數字"},{"start":7678.103,"end":7694.691,"text":"用一個月兩個月三個月個別的調整的數字來看我想不夠精準那我們現在希望能夠跟對美的這個談判在談判代表團的努力下盡快的穩定下來只有穩定下來我們才能把我們的策略措施能夠全面展開"},{"start":7695.471,"end":7713.591,"text":"這個數字就是剛剛副總召要你戴上床頭看每個月的變化當然是有的非常重要的數字那有關美國關稅衝擊我還是要談到工具機產業有許多勞工受到影響 報載工具機領域有勞斯萊斯之稱的百德基建"},{"start":7714.251,"end":7732.742,"text":"他已經開始做這個做事休三的無薪假雖然事後百德機械強調訂單調整已經恢復正常的工時可是台中市勞工局卻說業者從8月15日送出來的這個減班休息申請沒有撤回喔 院長沒有撤回喔"},{"start":7733.402,"end":7761.698,"text":"同一篇報導台中的經濟董事長黃明和透露他的下游上中下百家的這個協力廠都淪陷了他不是坐四修三就是坐三修四那個百德董事長謝端木也說他們國內許多客戶的終端產品仍然是以出口美國為主很難擺脫關稅的衝擊請問行政院對於工具機業者的減班休息無薪假"},{"start":7762.378,"end":7778.089,"text":"掌握到什麼程度呢檢辦休息無論是因景氣或因關稅勞動部都持續而且是主動在訪視是不是請黃部長能夠說明面臨這樣的衝擊行政院怎麼因應怎麼協助怎麼輔導請黃部長說明還要去組紅色供應鏈呢跟陳委員說明其實的確工具機是現在幾個產業裡面會比較辛苦的一個產業這是事實"},{"start":7786.735,"end":7808.788,"text":"那也是我們看到了現在幾個產業現在減班休息的狀況所以勞動部我們也提出了一個強化版的雇用安定措施讓減班休息的勞工他可能會有這個他不能無薪喔我還要再強調是不能夠無薪我們法規上面是不能無薪的可是他的這個薪資的差額我們會來補貼從五成變成七成"},{"start":7811.79,"end":7828.063,"text":"這些是警訊你要去面對未來有那麼多的未知無知到現在大家都還不清楚每一個減班休息的廠商他來通報我們都會主動的聯繫跟主動的訪視所以每一家我們都了解他的狀況"},{"start":7828.763,"end":7854.888,"text":"我想請教卓院長卓院長台灣面臨關稅大戰產業升級轉型大力發展AI供電穩定是一個非常重要議題重啟核三的公投結果投票率雖然低但434萬張同意票比起151萬張不同意票高達三倍有別於民進黨緊抱數十年的反非核家園神主牌這是台灣的新的主流民意我相信也是政府要的"},{"start":7855.248,"end":7878.154,"text":"否則賴總統也不會在第一時間說不排除先進核能即刻請台電進行體檢等等童子賢董事長也說公投結果已經足以彰顯民意期待政府要務實接受這是符合科學趨勢而且也不違背民主進步請問院長您能接受重啟核三的新民意嗎還是你的選擇會跟賴總統不一樣呢"},{"start":7880.795,"end":7902.249,"text":"對新核能技術的討論我已經講過很多很多次總統也講過很多很多次不是昨天前天才講的雖然公投雖然公投的結果雖然公投的結果對政府不產生任何的拘束力但是我們已經依照核管法的裡面的規定核安會已經提出了第一個審查辦法的我們已經依照"},{"start":7906.257,"end":7908.898,"text":"謝謝陳委員謝謝卓院長接下來請王定宇委員質詢方委員質詢完畢 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7944.575,"end":7960.487,"text":"謝謝副院長 麻煩院長請左院長備詢另外鄭麗君副院長也請請鄭副院長備詢一定要辛苦"},{"start":7961.329,"end":7974.964,"text":"國務院好 不會 謝謝 大家都辛苦是 鄭副院長也是因為談判的事情很繁重你還欠我一次約定對 但是國事為重我現在請教幾個大家比較關心的議題"},{"start":7976.175,"end":7993.523,"text":"那我覺得在努力的談判過程當中我們常常因為保密或者是還在過程當中不便透露因為這樣導致被誤解我覺得這個是最為冤枉的所以在可以透明的情形下盡量透明讓民眾了解現在遇到什麼狀況我第一題要問得比較簡單"},{"start":7995.184,"end":8022.282,"text":"大家一直在傳聞說美國希望台灣開放整車的市場全車的市場那有關美國整車免稅來到台灣這件事情到底在談判有沒有觸及它在未來有沒有可能發生你方便回答到什麼程度我都尊重了是不是請鄭副院長回答一下謝謝委員我想整個談判過程我們每一次的實體談判其實有向社會"},{"start":8023.435,"end":8037.326,"text":"來說明我們談判的進程我們也說明說我們談判的議題觸及關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易便捷化經濟安全數位貿易以及投資採購等商業機會我們也有向社會來說明相關的範疇"},{"start":8042.096,"end":8067.673,"text":"那這裡面當然隨著談判的進展那美方會持續性的提出他的期待那尤其美方在各國談判的過程當中我這一題其實蠻精準的因為日本 韓國都遇到了是 美方也會期待說各國要提供這個市場開放所以就有關關稅非關稅貿易障礙部分的確我方也會磋商不過我們都會"},{"start":8072.256,"end":8100.335,"text":"因為賴總統也曾經宣示過我們願意在某一些產業上把我們市場開放對消費者是加惠的坦白講台灣我們主要的產業是在做汽車零組件整車的那一家公司扶植了那麼多年該成材找成材了現在還在進口中國車所以對消費者或台灣民眾來講整車零關稅我可以降低我的採購的負擔"},{"start":8101.896,"end":8124.484,"text":"對美方來講它對日本也有要求對韓國也有要求日本是汽車大國它還是要開放所以我覺得這個命題太明顯了那我該問的就是說因為我發現這兩天有一些有一些在評論這個事情的人因為這個點有一些誤會那產生了一些怨言我的題目很簡單針對美國整車免稅來台就是開放市場"},{"start":8128.746,"end":8153.724,"text":"我們在談判當中這一點到底有沒有觸及未來的可能性是大還是小向委員報告 美方的確會期待市場開放當然我們也會基於產業利益然後國民健康糧食安全來均於討論所以我們也會就這個部分來研商這當中美車的部分其實除了關稅也有非關稅貿易障礙"},{"start":8154.557,"end":8181.603,"text":"因為每規車要進來也會涉及相關的安全空間那個車安檢查那個是行政程序啦相關的標準雙方的制度性的如何的對接所以這個都在談判的範圍內這個在未來的半年內或一年內在談判的範圍裡面可以跟委員說在談判的範圍裡面那等到我們所有談判抵定之後我們所有的細節一定會向國會跟社會完整的來說明所以這個是有在談判的範圍內"},{"start":8183.783,"end":8210.573,"text":"因為這牽涉到車安的規範 驗證的標準等等那個是技術問題所以如果有在談判的範圍內也就在總結談判結論出來的時候它就會出現了目前因為我們都在技術性磋商過程大致因為技術性磋商我們才能夠堆疊出最後整個談判的結論總結談判大致上我們在這些範疇都有進行研商但我方還沒達成協議最重要是還沒有進行總結性的會議總結性的會議"},{"start":8212.754,"end":8234.633,"text":"有沒有預計什麼時候要開目前從8月1號回來之後我們經過三次視訊那我們這個視訊現在接下來談判目標第一個再降對等關稅第二爭取不疊加第三因為台灣我們有九成的逆差來自ICT跟半導體這個聯動美方現在正在制定的232關稅的政策所以一併磋商232那我們這個三者達成共識"},{"start":8237.876,"end":8247.602,"text":"一定的共識之後美方會安排總結性會議所以從8月1號台灣被放在NXI在NX1裡面之後你們開過三次視訊會議所以這個三次視訊會議就是在朝著總結性會議的進度邁進然後把對等關稅跟232相關的項目有關不疊加以及把對等關稅往下降"},{"start":8262.25,"end":8288.369,"text":"目前有没有方向我们已经表达了争取但是因为要到这个总结性会议在协商最终的税率的时候才会有一个定案那通常我们在视讯会议是give and take我们表达这样的期望那他一定会提出条件来要怎么样子才能往那个方向迈进谈判是这样因为我们的对口有贸易代表署然后我们会就刚刚我所提的这些范畴"},{"start":8289.042,"end":8314.179,"text":"還有未來可能雙方要達成協議的這個框架協議逐條逐項的討論那我們也同步的跟商務部來持續就供應鏈的合作因為你是談判的總負責所有的議題都談判完了之後就會來進行總結的會議總結會議就會來議定最後的這個稅率跟所有的條件一併成立所以我在請教你議際這個總結會議"},{"start":8317.537,"end":8339.609,"text":"会落在九月份吗我们当然希望越快越好就是落在这些你不赶快越快越好那个暂时性的20%冲击就会越大你这边越快不管是232不管是我们的对等关税或者什么东西开放市场要进到台湾你越早厘清我们离圣诞节那个季节很近了"},{"start":8340.029,"end":8364.643,"text":"它很多東西在這個時候Pending在那裡其實是對中小企業比較大我想跟委員報告第一個當然我們積極推進談判但談判取決於雙方但我們仍然全力努力希望越快越好那我們希望說能夠爭取稅率再降第二點是因為談判裡面相關的細節我現在無法逐一的回應也是因為為了維繫最好的談判的結果"},{"start":8365.143,"end":8389.083,"text":"因為如果說過度揭露相關的條件在最後整體在進行溝通的時候我們國會在監督我國會在監督我都尊重談判的節奏但我現在要問的是我要請教副院長的是你們現在已經從8月1號以後有三次的視訊會議那接下來還會有視訊會議還是接下來就是把各自的文件擬妥準備到下個階段的會議"},{"start":8390.314,"end":8409.579,"text":"我們三次視訊會是有一定的進度我可以跟委員這樣報告那還會再有多的視訊會議嗎然後我們隨時有在聯繫那我們也希望能夠盡快的來進行進入最關鍵的總結會議的階段目前都在持續的延長中那我們也跟美方表達了我們三項的談判的這個目標"},{"start":8410.883,"end":8430.625,"text":"我們能期望在九月份看到更進一步的訊息嗎時程的確取決於雙方不過美國財政部長Besant他也曾經有對外表達說希望尚未完成談判的國家在十月底前可以完成但是我方希望能夠在此之前越快越好對 因為Besant提十月底"},{"start":8431.286,"end":8451.092,"text":"那我們希望早一點大概就只剩9月份嘛因為這個談判還是要花時間的所以從這個時間的落點來看不管這個暫停我們暫時的這個稅率要維持90天或多少天從8月1號開始你們有做了一些進度了那10月份Payson希望都達到結論那大概落點在9月份這個預測"},{"start":8452.637,"end":8476.39,"text":"希望啦 我只能講期望我們希望越快越好我剛才講到整車這塊我覺得這個牽涉到市場秩序如果這一個日本已經是零韓國是零那台灣如果有預計要往這邊邁進的話我覺得要讓消費者當然整個談判過程我們都會參考社會各界的意見然後我們相關部會也有跟"},{"start":8476.87,"end":8497.336,"text":"因為觀望跟期待心理是總體經濟裡面有這兩個變數其實影響很大我希望行政要注意這一點那我也要提醒院長這裡比亞迪或中國其他的電動車輛是不可能讓他來這邊洗產地或者傾銷因為他賣不出去了他倉庫堆了一堆不管是經由泰國或任何第三國要洗進來台灣這個是萬萬不可"},{"start":8500.218,"end":8523.373,"text":"這個不僅是會影響到談判因為稀產地也會影響到我們國家的國安跟治安我希望經濟部或者我們行政院這一點要很明確的態度我比亞迪不管你要改成任何名字從哪裡來或者其他中國電車你中國的倉庫堆滿碼頭銷不出去台灣絕對不讓你請銷我們基於國安治安也不讓你進來我更不容許你來這邊稀產地"},{"start":8524.934,"end":8550.446,"text":"這個席產地是川普這一次對等關稅裡面主要的目標之一所以我不曉得我們院長跟經濟部這邊有沒有明確的態度經濟部討伐之前兩個原則第一個在台灣生產的一定要符合我們逐年加嚴的在本地化的這個製造率 自治率本地化的逐年加嚴第二個無論它中國的產品如何繞道貼牌換牌過來我們都嚴格的管制"},{"start":8550.816,"end":8566.183,"text":"我們希望維持的是台灣的產業 經濟的安全以及我們在這整個供應鏈上能夠維持現在的地位來經濟部是不是簡單說明一下跟委員報告就是說中國的品牌車不管是從哪一個地方其實我們就是"},{"start":8567.023,"end":8584.604,"text":"全力的防堵他進到台灣來所以我們是不准他進來的是因為人家以前特洛伊木馬還要放一些香檳美酒拐你拖進去我們沒有道理自己花錢買了一堆小木馬進來這一點要守住所以我也希望公開呼籲很多的業者現在還在做一些廣告"},{"start":8585.525,"end":8613.03,"text":"對社會會產生不實的狀況還在置入啦我已經要求經濟部能夠跟業者之談不要做這些誤導性的廣告甚至於有些在遊說在搞置入行銷置入新聞的揭露來讓社會大眾知道誰在收錢辦事幫忙做遊說我覺得這個透明化大家看得清楚那到底是廣告還是新聞到底是廣告還是遊說背後的力量我覺得行政院這一塊可以硬起來把它做揭露"},{"start":8613.89,"end":8623.256,"text":"資訊的透明揭露嚴格執行我接下來請教院長其他可以請回來有關這一次對等關稅談判的農業開放的議題我只提一點"},{"start":8624.594,"end":8647.081,"text":"我們現在台灣的公糧收購其實我們在立法院常常提到公糧收購都講到本土農業一公斤九塊多或幾塊那這個在農業的議題上公糧收購的價格定太高會影響到自由市場反而對農業不利啦這個我今天不討論這一塊我今天要講的是就我們了解我們的公糧收購除了像台灣的農民收購以外"},{"start":8647.941,"end":8659.825,"text":"我們也有跟國外買有跟泰國跟美國買是不是農業部部長這邊可以說明我跟委員報告就是在稻米部分當初在加入WTO以後有所謂的配額制那配額是一年是144,720噸"},{"start":8663.466,"end":8691.544,"text":"這個配額裡面又分一個是政府配額一個是民間的那政府的部分就是由政府來採購就是您剛才講的由公糧進來因為時間關係我現在講說我們都以前大家國外人都以為公糧收購就是我們這裡種赤藍稍微放在那層殼裡面都以為是買本產的米其實我們有一塊是因為當年世貿組織加入之後要求是對國外買那我們看到川普總統要求日本開放他的米"},{"start":8692.524,"end":8721.479,"text":"讓美國米可以賣過去對日本來講米雖然產值不大可是是他們本來說是神聖不可侵犯的他也開放了就我們現在看起來台灣的公糧收購有買美國米嗎我們一年買幾噸大概一年大概是六萬四千噸左右我現在要問的是如果我們在去美國談判的我們有關公糧收購本來就一定要買公糧一定的配比就要買外國米的話我能不能乾脆就多買美國米"},{"start":8723.322,"end":8741.825,"text":"不過我跟委員報告就是稻米因為是我們糧食安全非常重要的產品而且我們國內是小農制影響的農民數大概22萬所以在稻米我們還是盡量跟美國溝通就是說稻米是我們糧食安全一個非常重要的那您剛才說的日本的部分是用配額的方式去處理"},{"start":8742.346,"end":8758.804,"text":"對 他用配額去買他也是用配額的方式處理但是日本跟台灣不一樣我們能不能在不影響我們本土米本土公糧收購的狀況下在配額上做調整我多買一點美國米啊把關稅降下來對生產製造業有幫助我也沒影響到容業可是我把配額米呢"},{"start":8759.602,"end":8782.908,"text":"多買一點美國這樣會不會違反WTO的規定WTO規定只有下限的部分上限的部分沒有我還是跟委員報告我們還是積極去跟美國溝通但是我們也同時也想了非常多的因應的方法最主要是不會影響到不會衝擊到我們的農民是第一要件的當然我們農民是根本那個要保護他"},{"start":8784.009,"end":8798.048,"text":"我們本來公糧收購就在買外國米在那個比例上我們讓談判代表有至少有個工具可以去談因為公糧收購如果全部買本產米那另外一回事長年來我們都買泰國米"},{"start":8798.993,"end":8825.428,"text":"有大概一年大概兩萬八千噸左右還有其他國家還有越南米越南米還有日本米這兩塊對我們不好我的意思是說我們現在談判的時候我不好意思講一些話但我的意思是說在對外採購米的時候有時候美國要求的是一個公平那個產值其實不大我們在配合上調整一下在意識上順了讓我們關稅談判多一點武器其實不壞"},{"start":8826.955,"end":8841.932,"text":"不轉公園是嗎對 我知道但是政府配額裡面的國家配額是固定的它是比較難調整那剛才說的就是說用其他的方式這一題讓農業部去思考不影響本產米怎麼樣在幫助談判上"},{"start":8843.695,"end":8863.65,"text":"又符合我們世界貿易組織的規範上去處理然後我最後10秒鐘提醒行政院就是說如果我們對美軍事採購的金額這麼高他們容許商售方式列入貿易赤字的額度計算的話那我們就應該好好精算累一點把它拆開來買一樣的東西但是列入貿易赤字的底下"},{"start":8870.509,"end":8880.675,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 謝謝卓院長發言會休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":9478.587,"end":9501.481,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會 請黃委員三三質詢謝謝主席 我請卓院長好 請卓院長備詢"},{"start":9512.848,"end":9534.935,"text":"黃國榮好院長早我想今天都是國人非常關心的有關關稅的專案報告雖然談判還在進行中我也知道你很多事情沒有辦法現在對國人說但是我必須說從4月到現在國人都在等進一步的消息院長你覺得目前為止政府的處置你滿意嗎"},{"start":9536.704,"end":9564.974,"text":"我覺得第一個談判代表團很辛苦再來我們適度的把談判的次數進度向外界講但細節內容到底是有所保留我必須說國人不太滿意啦不滿意的不是說我們談判代表不努力我們都知道這一次川普的關稅他是對著全世界開槍台灣只是其中一個所以沒有辦法怪任何一個人但是他的目標很清楚開放市場"},{"start":9565.919,"end":9591.965,"text":"投資美國 講完了所以不做這兩件事就不可能談得好對吧他為了也是要他的貿易赤字還有他的財政赤字跟貿易差只要跟他貿易赤字的無一倖免不管是不是他的盟友包括日本 韓國包括所謂的歐盟沒有一個人置身事外所以20加N從8月7號到現在應該還在進行中吧"},{"start":9592.659,"end":9600.753,"text":"所以我們就以緩急急的方式所以它就是一個現在進行式嗎對 我們對特殊的產業有受到傷害我們以緩急急來協助它"},{"start":9601.639,"end":9627.906,"text":"談判代表很努力美國政府沒有辦法達成協議我覺得還是回到一個問題是政府有沒有讓人民安心過程裡面我們沒有人說談判代表不努力但是我覺得人民不夠安心尤其是在7月31號副院長在這邊我想我們必須要表達人民對於這件事情的看法7月31號全部的國人引頸期盼等著行政院的回答"},{"start":9628.533,"end":9651.08,"text":"行政院發言人出來說已經在談了而且在寫聯合聲明了我們都覺得很棒啊但是第二天早上起來是突然間發現第一沒有聯合聲明第二不是什麼技術性磋商第三20%就算了過了一天才說20%還要加N這才是今天我剛剛說國人不滿意的原因"},{"start":9652.128,"end":9670.899,"text":"我們知道川普要什麼可是我們不知道我們的行政團隊是這樣的方式讓國人在過程中竟然是受到這樣的驚嚇院長你瞭解我的意思嗎7月31號為什麼會發明莫名其妙的聯合聲明呢說聯合聲明正在寫一個天早上沒有"},{"start":9672.202,"end":9698.647,"text":"既有關稅加上對等關稅這個我們早先就講過好 聯合聲明是院長說的還是行政院發言人自己亂說的我們覺得要加強那談判的過程請副院長跟委員來報告那的確從事業以來聯合聲明是隨便亂說的嗎沒有 我們的確和美方戳傷了所有相關的技術性議題以及聯合聲明相關的內容有戳傷不是正在寫 只是有戳傷但他說的是正在寫"},{"start":9700.205,"end":9704.689,"text":"這件事情我的意思是說行政院必須要對國人說個抱歉因為經過幾輪的談判相關的技術性議題大致的共識也完成行政院發言人這樣說對還是不對"},{"start":9721.243,"end":9744.117,"text":"是對的 因為我們的確跟美方進行了聯合聲明的磋商所以第二天在最後一輪的實體磋商當中的確有但最後一天沒有能夠達 事實上跟委員報我努力到最後一天所以就是空包等沒有達成共識有兩個原因第一個是美方沒有得以安排同學性的會議所以我們只是自己說說不是"},{"start":9744.637,"end":9772.148,"text":"第二美方也有通知我方因為我方的這個逆差結構有九成我只要說這是中華民國政府闖出的最大的笑話第二個是第二天才開始吵說20%要不要加N然後看到日本在吵我們才赫然發現我們也要加N然後現在你告訴我們你要去爭取不加N這是對你之前講過了但是全國人民大概只有"},{"start":9773.189,"end":9792.006,"text":"美方希望許談是因為我們聯動232半導體ICT院長如果你早就像這樣子想得很清楚我們都知道我們在記者會有說明全部的媒體都沒有人知道全部的民眾都沒有人知道就是立法委員不認真所以我們都不知道絕對不是"},{"start":9792.486,"end":9817.513,"text":"所以以後不要再闖這種笑話了院長我要說的是不要再有這種surpriseno surprise是一個對國人最重要的立場我們非常尊重委員所以我們希望來國會說明我們很早就希望你們來說明了但是民進黨團一直擋著不到你們來說明我現在講一次 院長我只要求一個no surprise"},{"start":9818.453,"end":9843.116,"text":"不要發生這類似這樣的意外大家都知道很難談我們都理解但是不要有這種surprise所以安心讓人民很重要很難談所以沒有到那個點我們真的沒有辦法把那個關鍵講出來所以我現在就要問了我們剛剛很多委員都問過了其實我們只要問三句話第一這個暫時新關稅How long 還有多久"},{"start":9844.315,"end":9850.329,"text":"你們可以做到剛副院長說的九月底美國財政部長說的十月底可以確定這樣的時程嗎"},{"start":9852.062,"end":9874.281,"text":"我們希望越快越好越快越好的確我們在持續推進中一到兩個月之內應該會大勢抵地我們持續推進中那我們也表達了三項目標那希望越快越好那當然這取決於雙方不過我們會全力努力那真正關鍵的因素我剛剛有跟委員讓我說明完就是有關於是半導體供應鏈以及232相關的關稅"},{"start":9876.723,"end":9892.652,"text":"那真的在我們完成對等關稅談判當中因為我國的逆差的特殊性九成來自這些項目所以美方的政策還在變動中所以美方也表達希望多一點時間雙方來洽談所以雙方正在做這樣的努力當中"},{"start":9895.834,"end":9925.124,"text":"的確有聯合聲明那如果我們達成協議那因為各國達成協議的模式那你們都談完了我希望剛剛講那些時辰全部公佈給大家聽那時候你的聯合聲明長什麼樣如果可以的話到時候都一起公佈把所有時辰講出來那是不是我跟委員來報告美方達成協議的模式有公佈聯合聲明的有公佈白宮事實文件很少啦只有很重要的很大的國家才有正式公佈最開心的還有日本韓國還跟川普一起照相呢"},{"start":9925.424,"end":9950.046,"text":"像前幾天就公布了歐盟的聯合聲明但歐盟是在這個8月1號以前就先宣布達成共識所以他達成共識的方式有多遠我想過程我剛剛講了No surprise就好了前面讓大家更清楚知道你的過程第二個我要問的是有多少影響剛剛院長報告的是已經有說了多少廠商現在無薪假可能還有多少的影響"},{"start":9950.686,"end":9953.009,"text":"我想問說對於國內的衝擊什麼時候會知道什麼時候會知道現在正在發生的20加N現在的衝擊評估有了嗎"},{"start":9967.396,"end":9987.584,"text":"我們衝擊評估在4月9號我們已經有公布過了而且有各項產品的衝擊評估包含我們在工業的部分特別提到像工具機 機械這個報告裡面都有了副院長不要浪費我的時間好嗎下一個我想問一下你們的談判代表"},{"start":9988.7,"end":9996.837,"text":"我們現在看到的是台積電董事長還有黃仁勳都見到川普我們的談判代表到底現在在跟誰談啊"},{"start":9998.426,"end":10023.537,"text":"我们过去几个月我们的谈判对口是美国贸易代表署以及商务部那的确美方我们在谈判最终必须进行总结会议但美方的总结会议的形式也有它不同的设定美方总结会议的形式美方会提出它的一个建议方案会做考量我方也会就这个形式来现在的问题就是可能还有下一个"},{"start":10024.517,"end":10040.938,"text":"我們現在USDR給我們一直以來的所謂的貿易障礙也就是剛剛院長說的他們一直要台灣放寬的叫做相關食安的標準以及開放市場最重要要投資美國這個是USDR長期以來對台灣的所謂的"},{"start":10043.161,"end":10054.816,"text":"貿易障礙就是他們美方長期每一年會定期公佈各國的貿易障礙對 這些我要問的是台灣的談判紅線在哪裡我們看到日本講得很清楚汽車就是他的談判紅線"},{"start":10057.66,"end":10080.735,"text":"韓國牛肉食安就是他的談判紅線我想問一下院長我們的談判紅線是良食安全國民健康就是我們的原則是所以具體的內容呢具體跟美方來談判但是一個基改食品校園會不會放委員我們在現在在談判過程當中那我就念給大家聽吧"},{"start":10081.806,"end":10107.884,"text":"三十月零以上的美牛進口黃牛症的疑慮我們相關的牛血產品跟牛脂違反國際標準這是他們說我們的但我們長期以來不讓這些進入所謂的校園跟軍隊另外就是馬鈴薯還有所謂的萊劑這些都是我們長期以來被美國認為的貿易障礙這一次他有沒有要求把這些放寬"},{"start":10108.817,"end":10123.565,"text":"跟委員報告的確各國都會面對美國希望關稅非關稅貿易障礙的這些談判的範圍我要說的是喔院長食品安全這件事情就是讓人民知道委員是不是讓我可以回答"},{"start":10125.359,"end":10141.156,"text":"因為這些範圍的確是會在談但是我方一定是以這個糧食安全 國民健康為原則然後依據科學的依據然後國民健康 糧食安全"},{"start":10141.716,"end":10145.779,"text":"是我們的原則那我們希望我們在既有的既有的報告委員你剛說的你剛說的那幾項都是"},{"start":10157.768,"end":10186.789,"text":"美方跟我國以及其他各國創新一來的一些公開的貿易障礙只是委員我說一句良心話我們在這裡討論這個事情並無助於談判的進行但是我要說的是這是人民會關心的事這是人民最關心的為什麼長期以來變成貿易障礙就是因為台灣人民沒有辦法接受在食品上面標示不明我們不知道我們吃了什麼所以我們只要做清楚的標示"},{"start":10187.729,"end":10198.996,"text":"這長期被美國認為我們做貿易限制這其實是你要去爭取的國民健康 管理制度 糧食安全這些都是我們談判的原則他會長期成為貿易障礙就是因為國內有這樣的壓力"},{"start":10203.278,"end":10226.353,"text":"我要說的是蘇院長你要把我們的壓力當成你談判的助力而不是一味的把這個東西當成說我要拿去交換的東西我要說的是這應該是你談判的助力這是國內民眾對這件食品安全最基本的要求也是如果今天美國真的要我們放什麼我們要知道我們換到了什麼"},{"start":10226.873,"end":10250.092,"text":"謝謝委員的建議我剛剛有重申我們的談判原則那所有談判的結果我們最後一定送大院來審議現在美中貿易談判延到了90天所以我們會不會是因為這樣美國要先跟中國談然後再來跟台灣談美中談判延到11月初那我們會不會也因為這樣被耽擱了"},{"start":10251.733,"end":10259.725,"text":"美方的考量我沒有辦法來代表美方說明你覺得他會不會像WTO一樣就是中國先台灣再來理台灣"},{"start":10260.868,"end":10290.24,"text":"我們就是全力以赴院長這是我很擔心的地方美國人可能會拿台灣作為所謂的美中貿易談判裡面最大的棋子我相信我們也一定是一個很重要的棋子第二個部分是他可能拿著我們跟中國談不管是軍事或經濟貿易另外也可能用我們去犧牲掉讓他去換取中國的讓步這一點在台灣我們身為民意代表立場我們必須要很鄭重的跟"},{"start":10290.94,"end":10311.626,"text":"兩位說我覺得國人非常在意這件事我們是一個主權國家的立場跟美國進行談判但美國多方的考量他考慮其他的因素這並非我們能夠去主導去影響的但我是希望說對台灣能夠有更合理更好的一個稅率沒錯最後一個問題是在8月23號我們看到一個瘋傳媒的獨家報導"},{"start":10313.146,"end":10341.292,"text":"說台灣的關稅籌碼出爐了而且經濟部的內部資料消息流出來說我們保證市場全面開放台灣企業四年要投資兩千五百億然後我們採購四年之內要投資一千三百億然後還有十年要三千億然後最後我們還要給他四千億的金融服務支持所以院長我看到副院長還是貿易代表有否認這個消息空穴來風還是確有其事"},{"start":10342.033,"end":10349.769,"text":"這些消息未向經紀部查證也未向行政院經貿辦公室查證但是有沒有全面開放市場"},{"start":10350.578,"end":10379.751,"text":"那裡面也有一些資訊跟談判情形有所出入不過因為現在談判還在繼續進行當中那是不是請容我們無法一一的向大院做非常詳細的報告我們也是為了維護最後談判的好的一個結果院長 投資美國是不可擋我看全世界不管是日本 韓國 歐盟都一樣所以投資美國有兩種方法一個是民間 一個是國家國家對美採購增加我相信這個也大家都支持軍購的部分"},{"start":10380.305,"end":10393.563,"text":"另外一個是剛剛講不管買美國米買什麼能夠增加你談判的籌碼我相信大部分的國人也可以接受現在的重點是如果我們要大幅投資美國你們接下來上次說的"},{"start":10395.245,"end":10415.803,"text":"總統說要成立主權基金會不會是你們投資美國的一個方法這個跟投資美國不投資美國完全無關不會拿來作為投資有關美國投資成為我們的一個工具我們有能力往這個方向去想而且這要非常慎重的逐步進行絕非再一朝一夕一年兩年的事情謝謝黃委員"},{"start":10423.572,"end":10445.55,"text":"謝謝卓院長下一位我們請羅美玲委員質詢謝謝主席有請卓院長還有鄭副院長請卓院長 鄭副院長備詢"},{"start":10459.744,"end":10462.901,"text":"路文豪院長好副院長午安"},{"start":10463.898,"end":10493.218,"text":"虽然说20%的台美关税在8月7号的时候就已经生效了可是基本上这是一个暂时性的税率整个谈判过程都还在进行当中刚刚副院长或是之前我有听到美方这边的报道说也许9月份或10月份我们就会有一个最终的结果谈判团队也一直强调说我们会努力来争取不叠加甚至比20%还要低的税率"},{"start":10493.958,"end":10520.911,"text":"既然這是一個還在進行當中的談判基於國際談判的原則都會簽署保密協議要等到整個談判有了最後的結果我們才能夠公布談判的細節可是我們看到在野的立委他根本是不顧國際談判的規範然後甚至誣導民眾說這整個談判其實是一個黑箱的作業要求公開談判的內容"},{"start":10522.071,"end":10546.719,"text":"那除了今天的院會那本席呢發現在這之前有好幾個委員會其實已經開過超過十場以上的這個安排了這十場以上的這個相關的這個議程了所以要求這個談判團隊呢來做備詢所以委員會問不夠今天在院會還要再來加開再來詢問所以本席想請教啊這個就是一個非常普遍的一個問題我想請教院長副院長"},{"start":10547.279,"end":10553.973,"text":"如果我們片面公開這相關的細節的話對於我們這次或未來的國際談判會有什麼樣不利的影響"},{"start":10554.838,"end":10578.501,"text":"談判的壓力我請副院長來答覆謝謝羅委員來還原事實上我們在歷次的實體談判之後都有發布新聞稿各部委員都到委員會備詢的確現在因為有時間差因為許多國家達成協議我方是還沒達成協議先從32降到20所以現在我們大家看到各國公佈的談判條件是因為他們跟美方達成協議"},{"start":10579.602,"end":10595.608,"text":"所以達成協議之後他們會由美方雙方公布聯合聲明來羅列相關談判條件或由白宮來公布Faith Sheet事實文件來公布這個談判條件或是由川普總統本人宣布這個協議的相關的重點內容"},{"start":10596.528,"end":10611.46,"text":"所以我們看到各國公布這些內容都是在達成協議之後比較完整的說明這個裡面涉及的所有的談判條件所以我方現在因為還在談判中我們現在的稅率是一個階段性的稅率"},{"start":10612.14,"end":10632.835,"text":"所以屆時如果達成協議之後呢雙方也會先來公布相關的談判條件那之後完成了協議的簽署那麼我們依照條約締結法的這個第八條條約簽署之後呢報行政院就會來送國會來進行審議我想我們一切都是依照條約締結法依法來進行"},{"start":10635.237,"end":10662.997,"text":"那這個過程的確我們現在還在繼續談判中但我們也了解產業社會需要更清楚的資訊所以我們也願意善盡說明的責任那不管是來大院或是記者會或是我們已經跟產業界有許多的座談持續的來進行說明讓大家更了解我們在這個MFN加對等關稅20%受到的衝擊裡面政府可以來給予什麼樣的支持"},{"start":10663.579,"end":10680.278,"text":"尤其針對裡面衝擊比較大的像工具機 機械或蝴蝶籃 鬼頭刀等等這些衝擊較大而且對於競爭國而言相對它的稅率對競爭國產生比較競爭劣勢的特定的產業我想院長也有特地安排行程面對面的來聽取"},{"start":10681.741,"end":10698.191,"text":"挺聽業者的聲音那我們行政院會再給予特別的支持我想在這個過程當中我們全力支持但是我們談判團隊包含跨部會在內我們一定全力努力持續以越快速度越好來持續推進談判爭取最後的總結會議來完成這個協議"},{"start":10701.354,"end":10724.508,"text":"所以我們其實一直都是按照這個國際規範在走一定要等一定有一個定案之後我們才能夠公開相關的細節我想全世界都是如此那有沒有哪個國家的這個國會議員會在談判當中一再要求這個行政團隊談判團隊把這個細節公開目前有嗎 目前看起來好像是沒有就只有台灣這麼做對不對"},{"start":10725.448,"end":10746.831,"text":"美國這次跟各國談判都簽有保密協議所以大家都很清楚這是不能夠說的這個協議其實也是規範就是在談判過程當中相關的文件因為有許多的談判的議題其實在磋商中也許有共識但是最後在整體總結的時候會在整體進行最後的定案"},{"start":10747.392,"end":10766.779,"text":"那所以的確各國也都依照國際談判的慣例跟這個保密的協議相關在進行但是我們為了尊重大院也在大院機密會議的安排底下來出示相關的保密的會議那不過的確因為現在許多國家達成協議大家看到相關的談判條件也會想要了解我方"},{"start":10767.479,"end":10777.726,"text":"談判的情形我們充分的理解社會需要資訊國會需要資訊所以我們行政院在所有可能的範圍能夠公開說明的我們一定善盡說明的責任"},{"start":10778.876,"end":10802.962,"text":"好的 謝謝副院長的這個說明那再來就是說剛剛也有委員在關心就是前兩天有這個媒體以獨家報導的這個方式報導裡面特別還提到說是收到經濟部內部的資訊所以裡面還提及了談判的過程美國要求我方取消哪些商品品項的關稅甚至有提到我方對美投資方面的承諾等等"},{"start":10803.682,"end":10831.948,"text":"雖然後來我們行政院經貿工作小組有澄清說其實這是不實的報導也沒有跟我們這裡做過求證裡面的項目跟談判的內容是有所出入的可是媒體所提到的經濟部內部所提供的資訊到目前為止已經事情過了兩天了我們行政單位到底有沒有去了解是不是就是從經濟部裡面流出來的呢有了解過嗎"},{"start":10834.524,"end":10852.219,"text":"跟委員報告那經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼完全全面的資料那所以這個報導其實是不確實的確實可是他特別有提到是經濟部內部流出來的這個管道到底是誰是哪個單位這邊有去了解過嗎"},{"start":10853.18,"end":10875.349,"text":"是 我們也在瞭解中還在瞭解當中所以到目前還不是很清楚到底怎麼回事但是很確實 很確定的是說我們經濟部沒有辦法掌握那麼全面的資料像委員來補充說明談判小組除了我跟楊政委之外其實包含了跨部會經濟部 農業部 衛福部 財政部等等還有外交部 國安會等等許多的部會"},{"start":10876.209,"end":10894.587,"text":"那談判的範疇包含關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易變節化經濟安全採購投資等等等等所以其實各部會參與各部會的部分那目前看我們當天看到這個新聞我們有瞭解行政院經貿辦經濟部等各部會都沒有收到查證"},{"start":10895.7,"end":10910.673,"text":"所以我想這裡面有些數字並不是向部會查證之後來做報導所以裡面也有一些資訊跟談判的情形有所出入我們還是希望說國人給予我們一些時間讓我們加速談判"},{"start":10911.394,"end":10930.72,"text":"那談判我們一旦跟美方達成協議我們一定會先公佈所有談判的內容跟細節那這個過程我們必須做一定的這樣的一個期待是希望說有一些過度的揭露是不是可能最終會影響我們談判雙方條件的磋商"},{"start":10931.56,"end":10959.45,"text":"像後續我們要談判相關的供應鏈的合作232的相關關稅然後如果達成共識希望對等關稅能夠再降那這些談判桌上可能的條件現在如果過度的揭露是不是也會成為我們未來談判的變數我想這一點還要請大院跟社會能夠理解那我們一定在一旦有共識跟達成協議的時候我們一定會完整的提供說明向社會也會將協議送大院來審議"},{"start":10960.43,"end":10970.564,"text":"也會一併提出衝擊影響評估我再請問副院長如果到時查出來真的是從經濟部裡面揭露出來的話那會有懲處嗎 請問"},{"start":10974.813,"end":10992.668,"text":"譬如說它裡面提供目前為止都說裡面的資訊其實是有跟原本談判的內容其實是有出入的表示說萬一如果說真的是從經濟部裡面洩露出來的這會不會是說造成人心不安的一個"},{"start":10994.535,"end":11008.776,"text":"報告委員任何公務員從事國家公務的行為都有一定的準則跟規範公務員服務法有任何違法的那我們就依法來處理但我認為跟媒體的溝通我們要做得更確實"},{"start":11009.958,"end":11027.86,"text":"因為如果平常建立媒體有這種查證的程序的話很多的誤會就不會發生所以我也要求各部會以後加強跟媒體各項聯絡跟服務我們用最真實的面貌來向國人來論述我們所有的施政結果"},{"start":11028.596,"end":11043.737,"text":"OK 好了解那剛剛副院長還有提到就是說未來我們關稅的協議的文本呢將會送到這個立法院來做審議那行政單位會不會擔心就是說立法院到時會推翻原定的這個協議的內容有沒有可能"},{"start":11044.258,"end":11072.433,"text":"那當然不是說協議的內容不能夠提出意見萬一在野陣營未反對而反對難道我們還要跟美國重新來談判嗎有可能嗎 美國會理會台灣嗎現在請教會不會擔心是 謝謝委員的問題大院在2015年已經訂有這個條約締結法那我想貴我兩院就依條約締結法相關的法律規範來進行那條約締結法第三條有對條約有所定義"},{"start":11073.272,"end":11087.082,"text":"裡面涉及國防外交財政經濟重要事項都是稱為條約尤其如果未來在關稅的部分有所變動的話關稅也有涉及相關關稅的法律這些我們都會依照法律來進行"},{"start":11087.967,"end":11105.915,"text":"那條約締結法第八條也清楚的規範這個條約簽署之後會要送國會來這個審議那當然第十條也有相關國會審議相關的條文我想這些法律都可以供委員這邊來參考那不過這一次的談判我要強調的是它跟過去傳統的經貿談判不一樣"},{"start":11107.526,"end":11126.905,"text":"過去傳統經貿盤可能歷時多年但是這一次是在幾個月內美國跟所有國家一起進行談判那談判必須有這個各個範疇關稅費關稅貿易障礙貿易變節化經濟安全等等投資等等各項議題也有相關對等貿易協議的各項的條文要逐條的磋商"},{"start":11127.465,"end":11144.72,"text":"這些技術性磋商完了之後我們同時跟貿易代表組磋商完我們要跟商務部來進行未來供應鏈232的討論來進行一個總結的會議那最後總結的會議也要看美方他怎麼樣來安排這個形式來進行所以我想這個談判跟過去的經貿談判"},{"start":11145.629,"end":11157.436,"text":"的形式是有所不同的屆時我們再請國會來這個云與整體的考量但是我們也會善盡行政院向國會報告以及提供衝擊影響評估並把所有的資訊送交國會來審議的責任"},{"start":11159.181,"end":11184.618,"text":"OK 好 謝謝那也是要等到最終可能九月底十月以後的事情了一切等談判結束前後我剛剛所提的這個時程是參考美國財政部長BesantMr.Besant他的一個說法但是以我方的立場當然是我們希望能夠越快越好不過的確談判有時候取決於雙方例如說最後總結性會議的安排"},{"start":11185.058,"end":11190.309,"text":"我們也必須要跟美方來進行就形式的討論所以我想我們就是全力朝這個目標來推進"},{"start":11191.909,"end":11219.028,"text":"OK好 最後一個問題我想請教的就是說我們為了因應美國對等關稅帶來的這個產業的衝擊那經濟部呢他有提了四大方向就是包含用AI來降成本去美國設這個產業園區鼓勵業者生耕利基市場還有協助升級轉型等等那本是想請教的去美國設產業園區這個部分其實也就是我們談判的一個很重要的一個項目跟籌碼之一嘛對不對因為我們既然已經提出來了"},{"start":11219.949,"end":11245.462,"text":"其實外界都關心說那為什麼台美還沒達成協議其實就是我們一再的說明因為我們的逆差結構有九成來自半導體ICT那這個在232調查項目中那將這個對等關稅跟232並談的像日韓歐盟美方也清楚的跟我們表達他們涉及的232項目相對比我們單純他們也許是汽車也許是鋼品等等等等"},{"start":11245.862,"end":11260.48,"text":"那我方是聚焦在半導體跟ICT那這個部分的232關稅在美方的政策屬於未定他們的稅率政策還在變動中所以雙方必須就供應鏈合作跟232後續我們也希望爭取優惠一併討論"},{"start":11261.921,"end":11282.886,"text":"所以我們的確也正在跟我們的高科技業者座談來瞭解大家的想法整合大家的共識我們希望能夠透過後續的談判能夠雙方台美供應鏈有一個好的合作然後爭取232的優惠一旦在這個部分達成共識我們同時能夠進入總結會議爭取再降對等關稅並且不疊加"},{"start":11283.464,"end":11307.679,"text":"所以這裡面核心的議題的確也是供應鏈的我們在國際尤其在美國擴大的佈局那我想台美的高科技產業過去長期是互補的美國在創新研發非常的強台灣是我們的製造非常的強所以如果我們的製造在美國能夠來結合他們當地的技術研發能力市場跟人才我想也是我們一個有利的一個國際佈局"},{"start":11308.76,"end":11323.989,"text":"所以未來的談判應該要朝向雙方互補互利合作的方式來深入討論這個供應鏈合作的佈局那我方高科技產業的發展一個很重要的經驗也是來自於我們產業園區 科學園區政府跟產業界協力合作的模式"},{"start":11324.489,"end":11349.806,"text":"所以這一次除了企業如果赴美投資如果政府未來也能夠協助我們落地的企業能夠打造一個更好的投資環境公平的環境我們也透過這樣的產業聚落的方式為他們爭取更好的在美國給予的協助跟條件讓他們能夠得到更好的基礎建設然後能夠更好的一個投資優惠的環境我想對我們的產業的國際布局也是有利的"},{"start":11350.146,"end":11363.371,"text":"所以這個都在我們後續的談判範疇當中所以這個去美國社產業園區就是我們的籌碼之一當然剛才副院長講得非常的清楚可能還是以高科技產業到那裡去做投資好"},{"start":11382.145,"end":11389.35,"text":"謝謝羅委員 謝謝左院長還有副院長下一位請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":11416.571,"end":11439.6,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府機關首長官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長以及國發會劉主委和財政部莊部長卓院長還有劉主委還有莊副主委副主委今天請假那今天是副主委副主委代理"},{"start":11447.714,"end":11471.354,"text":"總委員好院長好部長好副主委好我的標題是產業退稅有需求調配勞力有方法緩對等關稅衝擊政府應盡速執行好請教院長外傳我們財經首長都留任顯然他們的表現得到肯定院長是不是支持會做事的格遠"},{"start":11472.298,"end":11500.874,"text":"我需要會做事是的不只是肯定而且是需要而且會支持很好來我們來看一下就在一個星期前我上次問到了還稅給中小企業財政部主動出擊還記得嗎8月12號我請教過院長說這些受到美國關稅影響他的市場是因為是美國的他受到的關稅衝擊我們把他過去這個產業進口在台灣的關稅我們退還給他院長是全力支持嗎"},{"start":11502.134,"end":11528.662,"text":"謝謝委員當地有提出這樣的建議來好 那麼財政部也主動出席了嘛對不對也開始去進行規劃了是不是 部長是 跟委員報告我們知道委員很關切這個問題我們也跟經濟部來聯繫對於相關這樣因為受到美國對等關稅政策影響而受到衝擊的產業以及廠商它的一個狀況那以什麼樣的方式來給他們支持好 了解好 那我現在也要考一考我們國發會這是副主委"},{"start":11529.352,"end":11552.837,"text":"其實我們要做這個政策呢國發業很重要你看我們要精準的找到受衝擊的企業首先這個產業他應該是以美國市場為主剛剛就說了而且呢他在他的主要競爭對手關稅又相對比我們低比如說不是所有的企業出口企業都是我們的對象是不是這樣我要找出他出口市場是美國為主的其次我們要把他跟"},{"start":11555.004,"end":11576.083,"text":"他的主要對手 美國對他的關稅是如何副主委是不是這樣子我們要盤點哪些產業受衝擊是不是應該從這兩個方法目前我們所有對受衝擊產業的一些支持其實基本上都是對著剛剛委員說的好 那我們來看一下舉例來講大家都說工具機 手工具 水五金 重電跟塑膠製品那我們來看一下"},{"start":11576.784,"end":11585.751,"text":"工具機我們對美關稅24%我們的主要對手德國、日本、韓國都是15%顯然的工具機受到嚴重衝擊卓院長是不是這樣"},{"start":11587.206,"end":11610.748,"text":"這個在我們評估當中確實是把它列為衝擊性大的產業另外我們來看一下手工具我們雖然是23.3但是越南跟我們一樣主要競爭對手中國比我們還高可能手工具沒那麼嚴重再來看水五金我們是22.6越南也是22.6中國也是比我們高或許水五金的壓力沒那麼大重電我們是22越南是15中國是57比我們高一個比我們低我們可能有影響"},{"start":11611.448,"end":11638.192,"text":"塑膠製品我們的主要競爭對手是中國59可是墨西哥跟我們差不多所以從這樣的看法來看是不是像工具機這樣的產業是我們優先要幫助的對象對尤其是如果高階的可能我們的競爭力會更弱一點如果中階的我們還有個很好的競爭力如果我們對手是德國日本以外的國家的話我相信我們的產品優越性一定是可以有辦法跟他競爭的"},{"start":11638.8,"end":11649.011,"text":"好 謝謝副主委考試過關我們請經濟部次長來地補接下來我們要問到一下沖退原料稅的政府分工副主委可以請為 我們請次長好"},{"start":11653.476,"end":11681.892,"text":"那麼莊部長之前我們要財政部來處理這個事情但是報告院長前面要有產業別要有產發署先告訴我們說是哪些產業受到影響然後這些產業要國貿署去抓出說他這幾年來銷售美國的需求量是多少然後鎖定這些廠商之後以公司別我們再請財政部官務署去計算這個公司為單位他過去"},{"start":11682.952,"end":11709.959,"text":"這三年五年甚至十年台灣的政府跟他扣了多少進口關稅是不是用這個方式才能夠趕快的把這個事情執行莊部長是不是這樣委員報告就是說對於受影響的廠商確實是如剛剛產業署跟國貿署我們會把他會提資料給我們至於是不是從這個關稅的部分來退或者是以其他補助或支持方案來做那這個部分我們後續會再來做處理"},{"start":11710.97,"end":11739.054,"text":"那現在進入到哪裡了是不是已經調查出來了這個部分跟委員報告一下我們在8月21號已經把相關的這些資訊已經給財政部那我想財政部他們現在正在核算當中總院長8月21號求在財政部這邊了財政部也說要等到大院我們行政院做出最後的決定所以請院長趕快決定你說權力支持資料在財政部這邊是不是趕快可以核定這樣的一個出口退稅的一個"},{"start":11740.515,"end":11755.525,"text":"請莊部長能夠請同仁能夠儘速的詳實的來將內容與檢查如果符合到所有的條件規則標準的話那行政院依照支持產業的這樣的原則跟委員日前的建議我們全盤的來考量實施"},{"start":11756.169,"end":11780.524,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼莊部長請回我現在請農業部陳部長好 那麼繼續 卓院長我們剛剛說沖退原料稅以製造業為對象我們看到這個圖很清楚其實製造業大概在這一波受到衝擊最大的除了受到美國關稅影響我們是不是還可以看到還會造成它減班勞動力的顯著我們來看一下我們看到報紙說 美對台課20%的關稅中部產業由減單 減班 裁員"},{"start":11784.326,"end":11797.261,"text":"那這裡訂單下滑 減班休息的包括電子資訊產業 運輸工具包括機械 包括鋼鐵 金屬經濟部 次長是不是這樣子這些產業是可能會遇到減班休息的衝擊"},{"start":11800.811,"end":11825.358,"text":"這種情況之下我要跟院長說遇到的減班衝擊其實勞動部長要起來的其實我想他坐在台下我要誇獎他比較不會尷尬製造業減班休息勞工生計怎麼辦我們看到了如果是本土勞工勞動部推出了強化雇用安定措施這也是過去疫情期間我們所說到的這幾個產業如果說原來的本土勞工他如果是月領4萬"},{"start":11826.838,"end":11846.076,"text":"因為呢 減班休息他只能領最低工資兩萬八千五百九但是他這就念了薪資差額兩萬八跟四萬這差額的一萬二勞動部呢用目前的就安定了給他七成的補貼他可以補多少一萬二的七成就是八千四院長支持勞動部這樣做吧"},{"start":11846.806,"end":11875.072,"text":"是勞動部一直這樣對勞工安定就業一貫有的方式那我希望他徹底的去執行是的 為什麼我沒有請勞動部長來起來因為他都做好了 都做對了所以就不勞他上來了好 但是外籍廠工沒有這個優待外籍廠工如果減班休息他最多就是領28590元經濟部是不是這樣子那這樣會什麼情況呢這些外籍的移工廠工他可能會怎樣"},{"start":11876.428,"end":11898.853,"text":"因為他來台灣就要賺錢嘛他賺不到4萬塊賺不到3萬5只能領2萬8他就另外找地方去嘛好那另一方面這個勞動力他出現了一個不穩定但是反過來看我們看看移工會跟寶桃串聯繞跑打工院長你知道什麼是寶桃嗎部長寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人寶釋桃的人"},{"start":11903.584,"end":11924.934,"text":"有時候一些失聯的移工他會透過特定的人然後去安排他做一些事情 你說的失聯的移工就是工廠 他進來工廠他不愛做啦他就漏跑啦 老闆把這些人扣扣的 現在中部南島在採茶他就去搬茶葉 茶葉搬完之後他就要對他做詩規對他採紮紅來"},{"start":11928.732,"end":11946.828,"text":"院長知道吧農務的這些移工它有它的季節性跟收產的這個我們看到過去在2025年就是今年移工一到機場就整個被接走另外有的是怎樣在2018年甚至發生的整個都不見了好 那我們來看一下可是這些移工投入的這些產業"},{"start":11948.109,"end":11961.782,"text":"不只是農業可是農業有沒有需求部長你們可以告訴我們院長我們農業目前雖然有農業移工的作為但是實質上使用的移工都是合法引進的嗎"},{"start":11963.351,"end":11987.992,"text":"我跟委員報告就是謝謝勞動部的一個協助我們農業的移工大概有兩萬名然後合法的移工進來就是合配有兩萬名大概現在目前用了一萬六千多名那你這個農業部門只有用合法的移工嗎不可諱言的還有部分的這些失聯的移工投入到農業領域做這些季節性的這些打工其實沒有失聯的移工也在打黑工啦"},{"start":11988.871,"end":12017.972,"text":"我們屏東農村喔 很多工廠喔他移工喔 下班之後呢 他要去打工啦我們平常喔 在吃米啦米是歐 米農啦 米農都要摘去五六點還沒停工 米多兩兩就要去歐啦都是附近工廠 種植附近工廠的移工喔他們就要去五點五就去歐啊歐到七點五 早上吃菜 回去上班有的是 阿妹啊 下班後 再來拍工有的是 白天禮拜 再來拍工農業部部長 你知道這個情況嗎"},{"start":12020.268,"end":12040.993,"text":"為什麼這個情況一直存在著因為有需要我們往下看其實不只是災後的復原我們還往下看其實現在談的是全職轉廠跟就近兼差其實依照目前我們的勞動法令我這個廠商合法引進的移工只能夠使用我不能說我現在工廠停班休息 減班休息我就給別人用"},{"start":12042.942,"end":12061.291,"text":"縣長 你知道我不能因為我的產業我現在訂單少了嘛我引進的移工不適途者嘛我就稍後把人家去加班可以嗎 不可以產業是不可以的 為什麼因為你全職移轉未來會成什麼情況等到我訂單回來了我就要人借 覺得借的回來他就亂講了嘛"},{"start":12062.572,"end":12072.454,"text":"所以目前我們工業部門 製造部門最擔心什麼我減單休息之後 減班休息之後我的移工跑掉了等到我的訂單回來了我還要訂車"},{"start":12074.881,"end":12098.536,"text":"當場的時候 我們當然也要給他但是這裡已經漏跑了這個移工他就轉入黑市變成是台灣我們撒不掉 摸不掉的一個移工這是我們不希望的所以怎麼做呢其實如果說不要讓他整場移轉讓他就近兼差他就是附近的農場他沒上班的時間 他去打工我先告一個 農家博定你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":12099.918,"end":12128.375,"text":"我們曾經就這個議題就正常的曾經問了幾個企業就是他們週休二是希望他們的員工休息如果他來打工的時候他們也擔心他們打工的時候如果太累的時候第二天上班可能會精神不濟這第一個第二個部分就是說如果要合法去做這些休息的話那相對的相關的規定也要做修正很好就是後面如果要合法的話就規定要修正為什麼我覺得農業部門可以這樣來做呢"},{"start":12128.902,"end":12141.863,"text":"因為他不是full time不是每天8小時的他是什麼 藍山的工程你一天來我一小時 兩小時 累輸加班不然就是你一星期你不出去玩你來我們家幫我們倒Q一些做sheet"},{"start":12142.692,"end":12165.427,"text":"因為農場的工作是零工有季節性有小規模有地點分散他很難申請完整的像工廠工人這樣的農業移工來做所以這種情況在我們往下看所以如果原僱主受到關稅衝擊影響他減班休息你與其讓這些移工跑掉跑去其他沒有資格引進移工的工廠做非法的工作全職的移轉"},{"start":12166.167,"end":12181.392,"text":"不如你是不是讓他本來週休兩天 週工作五天他現在週工作兩天另外的三天他可以透過一些機制到附近的農盲去幫忙院長你覺得這樣的方法有沒有一個可以考慮的評估"},{"start":12183.894,"end":12202.834,"text":"那個跟周委員報告因為確實這個移工如果要跨雇主或跨業來去工作那尤其是他本身他不是一個合意的解約的狀況的話這涉及到的制度上面的面向就比較因為勞動部現在我要打斷就是勞動部他的思維還是製造業工業的思維"},{"start":12204.055,"end":12222.592,"text":"農業要請全職的移工的需求量不高除非你是農場 牧場我起五月 我起第二月我整天一年三八六十五天都需要很多是季節性的所以為什麼農業移工不太好用但是這種兼差來打工的很好他有沒有轉移雇主 沒有雇主還是原來工廠的雇主"},{"start":12223.032,"end":12248.708,"text":"雇主同意之下他到鄰近的去兼差打工這個是有討論空間的而且如果你不給他一個合法的管道他就只能繞跑直接去打黑工這反而不是我們樂見的我現在已經請農業部去評估是不是可以用農會來出面農會過去是扮演農業移工的引進單位但是農會不好用但是如果你說原雇主因為減班休息他的移工他還是要大工手"},{"start":12249.588,"end":12263.591,"text":"吃土雞啊所有的負擔都工廠來負擔他現在去把旁邊的農場做一些試圖是不是這裡的行政成本你這裡農場你要做分拓要什麼人來做農民沒辦法做行政要從農會來協助這裡的行政環境把這裡的工廠因為營業到釋出的這裡流動熱他要分拓的保險費要分拓的大貨吃的飯這個你構築你不是新的構築你建的這個農場你來分拓農會來衝動"},{"start":12280.243,"end":12303.089,"text":"農業部如果這個方法你們有沒有把握可以做到把這些停班 減班休息的工廠移工在他們休息的期間讓農業部門來做適當的使用你們有沒有辦法做好管理我跟委員報告現在農會的部分就有就有從事我們農業部門那是全職的農業移工 沒好運啦"},{"start":12304.892,"end":12307.015,"text":"所以你們要很清楚所以我告訴院長最後我告訴你這問題這些法令是勞動部遇到的救護法的規範"},{"start":12322.435,"end":12346.787,"text":"他是原則禁止例外許可例外許可要行政部門開放再往下看全職移工沒有僱主轉換的問題只是原僱主同意他的移工去兼工兼差往下看那麼救福法的第7條這些條件都是可以去強化的所以最後的結論請院長承諾我們針對有需求的農業部門的需求我們用方法讓這些受產業衝擊的"},{"start":12348.408,"end":12359.251,"text":"移工可以趕快的去執行院長可不可以給個承諾來研究辦理謝謝總委員謝謝卓院長下一位請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":12382.452,"end":12407.475,"text":"主席有請院長請卓院長備詢務委員好請教院長你知道在台灣第一個拋出用零關稅來回應美國對等關稅風暴的官員是誰嗎 第一個"},{"start":12409.207,"end":12437.84,"text":"拋不出零關稅零關稅當時我們提出第一個提出來是誰啦很多人都有講過第一個嘛在會議當中第一個啦我說公開提出來第一個我不曉得委員聽到的是什麼時間就是賴清德總統啦我們是在討論當中一年4月6號賴清德總統對於美國的對等關稅他說他有對策就是要台美從零關稅開始談起他說他第一個丟出來的這公開的場合丟出來"},{"start":12439.396,"end":12453.212,"text":"當時立刻引發農民團體抗議你還記得那個時候你是不是邀請了包括我在內的三黨的黨團幹部來會談記得嗎是我想請問你在會中對我們保證了什麼事情你還記不記得"},{"start":12454.363,"end":12478.965,"text":"我們有一些敏感的品項我們不會傷害到我們的產業尤其對農民 漁民我們會列為優先要保護的對象沒錯 你就是跟我承諾一定會保護我們的台灣的農民跟漁民 對不對我想請問這個保證是不是到現在還是有效我們一直用這個原則進行談判那麼接下來我們來看到媒體獨家的報導 風傳媒"},{"start":12481.792,"end":12502.101,"text":"我國8月初回應華府細節保證美國商品全面市場開放其中包括取消小麥 玉米 大豆 乳製品肉類與水產品 蔬菜和水果汽車及相關產品 化學品 化妝品醫療器械 藥品 機械的關稅你有看到這段新聞嗎 有啦"},{"start":12503.101,"end":12531.261,"text":"我們已經針對在其中有相當數據以及沒有查證表示過否認那麼也希望以後我們會加強賴總統有澄清嘛說這跟事實有落差嘛對不對有澄清還有澄清說跟事實有落差啦那我有兩個問題就教啦那賴慶哲總統雖然澄清可是就我自己辦公室台灣的農民漁民還是非常恐慌疑慮你知道為什麼嗎我告訴你為什麼"},{"start":12532.354,"end":12536.395,"text":"賴清德總有四月就先拋出了零關稅所以我要跟"},{"start":12538.067,"end":12563.893,"text":"當時在會議當中我也跟我們的院長就是尊尊的一個建議就是說君無戏言 總統要慎言你拋一個零關稅不清不楚的後面的行政團隊要來收拾就會比較麻煩所以後遺症延續到現在當然你們說這個報導不正確可是人民會恐慌接下來我要請教你這個報導到底哪裡與事實有落差我想要來救教一下"},{"start":12564.713,"end":12578.065,"text":"我剛剛有聽王定宇質詢他問美國整車免關稅有沒有在對美談判的範圍之內剛剛鄭麗君副院長你回答有對不對有談判但是還沒有最後對有在談判的範圍之內你有說有我想請問取消小麥關稅有沒有在你的談判範疇之內"},{"start":12587.775,"end":12615.314,"text":"報告委員你要對我公平一點你對王定宇很乾脆就說有剛剛我回答王委員是說我們在談判過程當中對關稅貿易障礙各項停一下 暫停 時間暫停停一下 沒關係 請繼續其實副院長你剛剛那一套你已經倒帶起碼十次了所以我也沒有時間聽你倒帶了我只問你有沒有"},{"start":12616.005,"end":12642.718,"text":"報告委員有關於關稅的部分我知道你不會回答你那個循環倒帶待會播影片就好了我們就於糧食安全的原則我們來協商但是我必須跟委員說明就是對於關稅的細節如果我們在這邊做完整的說明抱歉時間暫停我們請繼續好不好沒有我要說"},{"start":12644.667,"end":12661.569,"text":"我還是回到院長啦因為你那個倒帶已經到了起碼七、八病我在坐在底下聽了很久這是核心的問題我現在要不然沒關係我不要在這地方卡住沒關係那我想請教那請問院長我就不問你了啦那我們副院長請回副院長請回"},{"start":12662.925,"end":12689.678,"text":"聽軍醫喜話 盧聽醫喜話是不是讓我非常煎藥 跟委員說明沒關係啦 你請回啦時間就不夠嘛你剛剛都不需要嘛 媒體一定會報導我要問院長我要問院長我們會基於糧食安全來跟美方協商你又倒帶一分鐘 兩分鐘時間就結束搞了三分鐘你再跟我講這個好啦 我跟你講沒關係啦我知道你辛苦啦來 院長"},{"start":12691.579,"end":12717.985,"text":"你有辦法保證政府不會取消小麥的關稅嗎報告委員我剛說過國際的談判沒有辦法保證最後條件拿出來的時候才是達成協議你沒有辦法保證不是 我們對台灣的你沒有辦法保證我如果這樣做這樣做這個結論不會不公平嗎王小玉本來我們就是在你就不能保證來 下一題請問你你有辦法保證政府不會取消玉米的關稅"},{"start":12719.915,"end":12736.605,"text":"黃小玉我們都同樣來看這是我們大眾的產品你還是沒辦法保證嘛來 第三個更重要喔你有沒有辦法保證政府不會取消稻米的關稅來 這剛好部長你剛好就上來了我們稻米跟美國一直有一些配額跟其他的會不會保證不會取消稻米的關稅嘛"},{"start":12738.188,"end":12752.851,"text":"我跟委員報告 您剛才講的黃小玉現在的關稅就是零因為她本身零關稅不可怕但是零關稅如果對我們有幫助我全部唸完小麥 玉米 稻米 大豆 滷製品肉類關稅 水產品關稅 蔬菜關稅水果關稅還有這些所謂的你們講的所謂的貿易障礙有沒有在對美談判的範疇之內 有沒有"},{"start":12767.464,"end":12789.624,"text":"我跟委員報告就是美方所提出來的有美方的期待但是我們也有我們的堅持我說嘛有我們的堅持所以針對糧食安全重要的這些品項我當然知道你會開始不肯回答這個問題但是我就是要這邊抗議啦為什麼王定宇講就那麼乾脆就講有羅志祥來問就轉了圈圈十八轉"},{"start":12792.66,"end":12814.575,"text":"黃委員是說我們有沒有談判有 但是還沒有達到最終那你又跟我講有啊黃小玉 滷製品 肉類 水產品 蔬菜水果再問一次 有沒有你剛就講有啊你問我的是小麥會不會影響到我們的農民黃小玉本來就零關稅我不曉得這怎麼回事我要一個一個問嘛我問的是起碼12項啊"},{"start":12819.428,"end":12843.781,"text":"我要問的不只是關稅 包括所謂的你講所謂的貿易的一些障礙啊理解 我們一直說不到最後的細節的時候好啦好啦 謝謝你啦 又轉了半天原則是在的 那幾項原則副院長說的都是核心的價值跟基本的原則來 蕩米影響的人是多少22萬人那請問我們還是要把這當作重中之重啊來 我想請問你"},{"start":12845.56,"end":12866.692,"text":"你可以保證政府過去從來沒有未來也絕對不會拿上述的農產品犧牲農民的權益作為對美關稅談判的籌碼嗎有沒有辦法保證我還是跟委員說明我們在跟美方談判美方有美方的期待我們也有我們的堅持所以在這個期待跟堅持之中就要做一個溝通謝謝部長你回答我都能預期"},{"start":12867.93,"end":12887.869,"text":"總而言之很簡單我想國人都看得到到現在為止你有沒有辦法保證我沒有怪你不能保證院長先抱歉我沒有怪你不能保證但是很明顯的今天你在當時的朝野協商會議對我的保證我到現在開始要懷疑這個效力到底還有沒有維持效力"},{"start":12888.61,"end":12915.472,"text":"那你知道現在兩面現在美國對我國的產品加徵20%關稅你知道已經對讓蘭花 台灣雕 鬼頭刀這些外銷的農漁產品產生很大的危機這一點你總認同 對不對所以我們用農業的產業支持跟金融支持來協助他們如果連產業都要被滅頂的話支持只是什麼只是亡羊補牢的唯末手段農業部是很努力而且確實掌握這些狀況"},{"start":12916.913,"end":12944.194,"text":"蘭花業者直接說20%負擔不起農民業者說漁民說養殖成本要破產利潤快要為零當然我知道現在關稅裡面有難題可是我這邊民意代表反映我們人民的真實的哭聲這農漁民真實的哭聲所以為什麼前面我要一直要問你總要讓大家知道我們政府到底有沒有把這些農漁民的權益包裹上談判桌連這一點"},{"start":12945.919,"end":12960.895,"text":"你們不肯回答但是我跟你講如果你的原則 院長如果你原則一次都不肯回答我也沒話說我們會維護農運民的基本權利你不要跳到另外一題我講的是一個態度問題這態度問題就是如果你對我都不肯回答我也可以理解啦"},{"start":12961.616,"end":12976.662,"text":"但是不是對王定宇你們就回答我跟委員報告你講的蝴蝶蘭其實我們跟蝴蝶蘭在談非常多次他們都非常有信心持續的去進攻美國市場所以我們也非常有信心的去支持他我們的農民很有韌性"},{"start":12977.83,"end":12999.763,"text":"但是如果我們政府沒有當後盾有韌性也很辛苦又以稻米為例美國在跟各國談判都要求包括開放稻米的農產品進口我們稻農也非常憂心台灣稻米受到衝擊如果說零關稅進口有些人就擔心國內的稻米會被全面擊潰這個擔心存在吧"},{"start":13001.39,"end":13022.349,"text":"我跟委員報告我剛才跟你說了就是稻米是我們糧食安全主要的項目他也是小農我都還沒問你談判內容我只問你這個擔心存不存在嘛沒有所有的擔心跟衝擊都是應該的啊商利善就擔心啦他說這是不可逆的破壞啦因為一旦衝擊啊很簡單啊你剛剛都講22.5萬的稻農啊"},{"start":13025.336,"end":13050.093,"text":"影響人民就30萬的升級啊我到現在沒有對你們下什麼指導氣沒對你有什麼我只希望你把這些人的聲音放在心中嘛我們絕對有考量到他的農民的人口數跟他產業的重要性好 我要想請教來 院長川普政府公佈我們台灣的對等關稅稅率是20%加N嘛 對不對比日本跟韓國還要高嘛 15%高嘛"},{"start":13052.447,"end":13076.864,"text":"這種是事實吧 既有的關稅加上20%暫時性是如此 暫時性那日本是15%沒有天花板那舉國震動所以賴總統就說這叫暫時性關稅對不對我們確實是暫時性關稅 現在已經一個月快過去了就算從8月7號20%加N的關稅起效算起有兩個多禮拜了請問這暫時要暫時多久"},{"start":13079.467,"end":13088.473,"text":"剛剛副院長說了這一個月當中八月他引進了三次的視訊會議我們要的是結果啦每次都針對問題你講過程我問結果你講過程結果什麼時候暫時可以結束結果現在還沒有確定發生一個月"},{"start":13094.11,"end":13119.035,"text":"可以嗎照美方的說法他的才是10月底至少那我們希望能夠如果說外面來講說因為那個美國跟中國大陸的那個貿易談判要到11月所以可能把台灣包進去可能要拖到11月後也有可能嘛我認為我們跟中國跟美國的談判反正我要問你一個月還是半年千萬不要跟我講你的暫時暫時要賴清德卸任總不會吧"},{"start":13120.377,"end":13138.609,"text":"絕對不會暫時到賴清德卸任吧看美國有沒有那個耐性我謝謝我們院長給大家安心希望這個20加N不是暫時到賴清德卸任起碼你也給了我一個日期你給不了一年 給不了半年 給不了一個月給一個三年 我這邊還是肯定你"},{"start":13139.451,"end":13165.867,"text":"但是你知道嗎 你知道河側枯魚的成語典故嗎有聽過這個成語典故嗎莊子說的故事他說遇到車側積水一條快渴死的魚然後他跟他討說 給我一升的水救命就莊子說 沒問題沒問題你這是暫時狀態我回去引西江之水來 你就得救了魚當場聽了就怒了等你把水引來 我就變魚乾了"},{"start":13167.295,"end":13182.053,"text":"你懂我說這個故事的意思吧緩不濟急所以我們現在已緩濟急所以非常好非常好所以我跟你講為什麼要問這個戰死的問題就是你們的戰死可能是讓人家暫時停止呼吸到死"},{"start":13183.154,"end":13204.87,"text":"對產業而言是有這個風險的我們也知道盡快確定時間穩定我跟你講當然啦你如果產業一直被扼殺就是有人受害所以拜託腳步加快好不好這個暫時你答應不會再賴清德總統卸任但至少我希望你能更加加緊那最後我要想做一點結論啦我還是恭喜卓榮泰院長留任"},{"start":13207.144,"end":13229.223,"text":"行委員支持跟指教但我其實要恭喜全台大罷免的鐵三角都留任了大罷免32比0大失敗收場柯建民口中去年總統大選一結束就在策劃罷免的鐵三角柯建民說那三個你總知道是哪三個吧就賴清德總統你跟柯建民那我想請問一句話你看這句話誰說的"},{"start":13231.281,"end":13250.177,"text":"雖然蔡英文總統已經辭去黨主席職務但難惜眾怒身為國家最高行政院長我難辭其咎為了肩負執政黨敗選的責任我必須要辭職負責這誰說的這誰說的就是他們幾位說的賴清德總統說的"},{"start":13252.433,"end":13272.361,"text":"2018年九合一大敗賴清德總統當時的院長說他難辭其咎啊 尖挑責任啊然後還要辭職負責啊當時被慰留但是他還是堅持就一個多月後他還是辭職下台我想請問卓議員長這次大罷免大失敗你有沒有覺得你難辭其咎啊"},{"start":13273.547,"end":13300.894,"text":"我已經跟總統表示過我應該負起政治責任那總統他知道政治責任應該那按照總統的慣例的話所以你任期只有剩一個多月囉這個意思嗎 總統當時建立的慣例啊我幫你複習因為我們還目前進行的事情很多他希望能夠把局勢穩定下來所以我們做重要人事的調整謝謝您 謝謝謝謝委員支持 謝謝好 謝謝羅委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":13304.679,"end":13331.947,"text":"下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢你好我們請院長我們請卓院長備詢"},{"start":13333.715,"end":13359.878,"text":"跟部長 農業部部長農業部部長貝雪陳國元好 院長好 部長好院長我想其實剛才已經有多次確認過了不只在野黨跟執政黨的委員都有確認過最近有媒體他報導說可能會犧牲農業全面開放"},{"start":13360.979,"end":13389.806,"text":"來去換取這個關稅的調整不過總統府跟行政機關都已經予以證實澄清沒有這件事情但是我還是必須要確認一下我們目前的方案是沒有定案的至少在我剛才提到有很多各項的這些農產品但是我最重視的是像包含稻米還有雞跟豬目前都還沒有定案對吧目前雙方都提出一些方案但是"},{"start":13390.734,"end":13404.811,"text":"都還沒有達成協議所以這些方案的內容現在都沒有一樣是說已經到最後那樣達成協議的最後的這個所謂總結會議的這個答案出來所以也沒有到這個所謂的聯合聲明也沒有到總結會議的雙方的達成協議都沒有"},{"start":13406.252,"end":13434.087,"text":"那院長這很好但都在進行當中那剛才副院長也有提到說這個糧食安全國民健康是不能妥協的那特別是糧食安全這件事情特別還有我們中南部雲嘉南地區稻米是我們的主要的產值之一所以我們很希望這一個是很重要重中之重日本的這個經驗也值得我們學習就是這一次他們在稻米上面的相對的讓步造成他們的一些農民的民怨這點我們一定務必"},{"start":13434.787,"end":13460.527,"text":"要放在我們的考量範圍我想現在的台美的貿易這個狀況其實是面臨雙重困局 多重挑戰首先就是農業你要犧牲農業來去成就中小企業嗎還是你要把中小企業的稅率把它降低就是這些關稅降低去保護我們農業還是要用台積電來大量的投資換取兩個產業之間能夠更有競爭力但不管怎麼樣這些都是挑戰"},{"start":13461.388,"end":13489.062,"text":"可是對我們來說特別是總統有提到均衡台灣我們要重視的不是強勢產業而已比如說台積電的表現大家都知道它有它的這個重要的核心技術我們希望它留在台灣但是我們更不能忘記能夠承載著整個國家的糧食安全就在我們中南部就是我們的稻米就是包含我們的雞豬跟稻米這些重要的我們的食物的安全 糧食的安全所以我可以理解我們現在在談判的難處我們現在在談判中"},{"start":13489.562,"end":13516.48,"text":"但是我們必須要對所有的結果首先預先做好準備所以我們不可以等到說到時候協議簽署之後然後我們再倉促的先用發販補助金這種方式用這種最草率的方式我們現在就要把所有的預案先想好到時候才能夠選擇來去對農業最大的保障我想請教一下現在在價格競爭力的嚴重銷售之下我們要怎麼樣系統性的來協助我們的中小企業"},{"start":13517.381,"end":13526.072,"text":"包含你剛剛之前我看跟其他委員們有提到的是擴大信保基金提供融資跟利息補貼等等金融工具之外還有什麼樣的方向"},{"start":13527.574,"end":13554.763,"text":"我們在農業跟工業各有我們先從中小企業特別是跟工具機產業相關的不知道部長有什麼樣的看法中小企業除了我們原來有的中小企業的多元振興方案之外我們對於工業部門我們也會協助它金融的支持還有它一些財政相關稅務的成本的降低也協助它升級轉型等等這個都是在特別條例當中都有名列的"},{"start":13555.736,"end":13579.816,"text":"特別跟院長還有其他相關的官員來提醒就是我們有接到一些其實不只是中部甚至包含嘉南地區有一些工廠他們都有提到說把工具機扣件等關鍵產業的標準與法規的互相認證來提高讓我們這些檢驗合格的產品能夠更快速的進入美國市場不要去增加它重複檢驗的時間跟費用不知道這部分有沒有什麼樣的回應"},{"start":13580.998,"end":13601.434,"text":"好 這個部分我想我們會照委員反映的民情這個部分我們會來處理好 這個盡量是快速因為如果我們在關稅在金額上面如果遇到挑戰的話至少我們在進入市場的速度上面我們至少要能夠快速的去反映再來就是我們必須要把價格競爭轉到品質的競爭"},{"start":13606.658,"end":13629.045,"text":"現在有沒有什麼具體計畫像是技術輔導團直接進駐產業聚落提供客製化的優化服務不是只是提供貸款這方面有沒有什麼樣的相關的推動跟文報告其實現在我們跟法人一起來在輔導我們這些工具機產業還有一些相關受衝擊的產業我們先用AI市產線的部分讓他們能夠整個產線它能夠升級轉型"},{"start":13636.087,"end":13663.324,"text":"那另外就是工具機它也可以開發一些相關AI相關的產品的升級這個部分我想這個都是我們希望把整個產業能夠讓它整個產品跟設備的這些附加價值率能夠提升的一個方法做一點補充有關中小企業多元有發展相關的貸款還有外銷貸款以外還有一個研發補助的部分就是協助企業的升級轉型"},{"start":13664.414,"end":13690.439,"text":"那這個每家企業最高500萬產業聯盟一起申請4000萬裡面也包含的相關的這個太舊換新的設備擴大內需等我想這些經濟部其實我們在4月2號對等關稅公佈的時候院長已經有責成我們提出一個完整的支持方案那後續也從880億增加到930億那現在任性條例裡面也希望未來再匡列200億來增加來強化產業的這個支持"},{"start":13693.408,"end":13706.74,"text":"尤其委員關心的衝擊比較大跟競爭國相對關稅相對有劣勢的像工具機機械等等或者是農業的一些項目我想各部會再給予個別個案的支持"},{"start":13707.639,"end":13735.561,"text":"好 謝謝副院長再來就是農業的部分剛才有提到的美國規模化低成本的農產品它直接長驅直入的部分想請教一下部長美國的低價米如果長驅直入的話它的國內的價格會受到影響現在的現行的公糧收購保價收購的制度我們是希望能夠持續下去而且要因應物價來做調整作為穩定市場的"},{"start":13736.297,"end":13757.248,"text":"最後一道防線除了被動收購之外行政院或農業部有沒有針對稻米產業升級的計畫例如全力支持我們的特色米種來進行品牌化的行銷還是效法日本月光米的模式將台灣米我們從主食把它提升為精品這部分部長可不可以給我們一些回應"},{"start":13757.828,"end":13775.027,"text":"我跟委員說明就是有關於稻作的部分我們從今年年初推的稻作糧食安全升級方案現在的產地價都非常好業農民也非常開心所以稻米是一個糧食安全非常重要的產物所以也是我們必須要去守護的"},{"start":13775.647,"end":13794.657,"text":"雖然說美國在那邊有他的期待但是我們有我們要守護的所以這就必須要持續的溝通那現在談判還沒有結束我們一定會去守護我們最重要的糧食安全的一個產物我們會達到這樣的希望達到這樣的一個目標第二個部分就是您剛才講的很多美國產品進來以後會不會對國內的物價有影響"},{"start":13797.398,"end":13813.474,"text":"我要跟您報告就是不是所有的零關稅都非常可怕有一些產品是我們原物料的像黃曉玉的部分如果他現在都零關稅零關稅進來以後對於我們飼料成本會降低對於我們產業反而是好的"},{"start":13814.234,"end":13836.805,"text":"有一些產品本身它本身就是跟我們是我們本身生產非常少的這一類的產品它其實是可以滿足我們的消費者的需求所以我們也做了非常多的這樣的分析的確有一些產品是可能會到衝擊的這些衝擊的部分我們也完成了衝擊分析也完成了一些後面的因應方案"},{"start":13838.038,"end":13859.9,"text":"所以部長我剛才提到就是講稻米那對於剛才你說到用在飼料用對畜牧產業的這些可能的爭議的地方我也希望未來能夠能夠來清楚的跟民眾講我想補充三點第一點就是農業敏感項目這個的確涉及糧食安全剛剛陳部長有說美方當然會期待市場開放不過有關最重要的糧食安全也是我方考量的一個"},{"start":13860.541,"end":13885.164,"text":"原則但是我們的確沒有辦法就每一項談因為如果我們談了是不是屆時影響最終談判的這個結果我們想要維護一個最好的一個結果這第一點那第二點如果是對我們有互補性的項目我想這個也許就是可以在這個考量的範圍那或者是我國是依賴進口的部分但進口部分在國家之間的替代這個也是也許是一種考量所以我們會綜合考量"},{"start":13886.342,"end":13889.874,"text":"我們的糧食安全跟產業利益來跟美方做相關的談判"},{"start":13891.008,"end":13919.283,"text":"剛才副院長跟部長都有提到有一些互補性的比方說它能夠有效的把我們畜牧產業反而是有利的因為它可以壓低我們進口的價格的當然就是成為我們互相互利談判的一個基礎但是我剛才有提到一方面我提到精品把我們的稻米精品化但是我為什麼又提到工糧收購為什麼要提到要把價格的保證原因是因為同樣的農夫同樣在做稻米的這些種植有一部分是最脆弱的我們比較老農"},{"start":13920.143,"end":13945.36,"text":"對他們來講要精品化等等的話對他們來說的成本太大對我們來講我們與其要每一個產業走100步我們希望每一個人都可以有機會來成長所以我為什麼還在持續的講說包含工糧收購 保價收購還需要因應物價來去調整我們要保護的就是這些老農這些我們可能在最脆弱的一環所以它彼此之間是不矛盾的甚至是有互補的"},{"start":13945.88,"end":13966.963,"text":"再來就是我們的畜牧產業剛才有提到包含特別是白肉雞這跟我們日常的生活飲食是息息相關未來美國會大量極度便宜的如果是進口的雞腿雞翅等等都切塊這些我們國內產業可能很難競爭我想請教一下部長你有什麼樣的方案"},{"start":13968.243,"end":13978.215,"text":"我跟委員報告白肉機的部分現在進口的白肉機的部分占差不多全台灣使用的35%這35%其實幾乎100%都是由美國進來的所以美國已經有在進白肉機"},{"start":13984.136,"end":14012.928,"text":"另外一個就是白肉雞進來的都是特殊部位的部分它跟國產雞肉的消費的市場是不一樣的所以後續我們在處理這一塊的時候我們都是在不管是現在或未來我們一直希望說維護我們國內的產業它的市場的一個區隔性所以我們才能夠去面對未來的任何的一個挑戰所以後續的這些品牌後續的國內雞肉的部分的一個市場的區隔我們會加強來努力"},{"start":14013.561,"end":14039.719,"text":"好 再來就是酪農的部分其實之前有一陣子衛福部也在討論這件事情這個應該不會在這一次的關稅談判中裡面有包括在裡面吧所有的品項其實美國都有期待但是我們也有我們的要守護的部分部長 我就宣誓性講一下因為這個事情兩三個月前我們好不容易有說服我們的這些酪農朋友請把他們的權益一定要放在"},{"start":14041.59,"end":14061.956,"text":"這個討論的裡面強調這次我花很多的篇幅在強調農業的原因是因為我們都知道台積電是台灣的火車頭但是 糧食安全 國民的健康守護這些的就是農業所以我請農業部部長跟副院長能夠把這個事情不要把它納入最不重要的事情要把它納入最重要的事情的考量之一"},{"start":14062.555,"end":14076.643,"text":"接下來要針對政府對232條款的因應策略這個部分我先請教院長院長現在我們的輿論是主要是在焦點是20%的關稅有沒有機會爭取到調降或者是不疊加"},{"start":14077.603,"end":14106.722,"text":"但是這個前提可能是透過傳統的談判或者是擴大採購等等來去做討論可是這個232的情況比較複雜因為它是有國家安全的戰略的行動在考量在裡面它不是單純的降本求利而已它是在討論國家安全哪一項目它認為會影響到他們的國家安全所以如果編長我們也認同矽頓的概念跟單純的經濟關稅有差別的話那在這個談判辦除了談判辦公室之外我們是要納入處理國家安全"},{"start":14107.102,"end":14134.05,"text":"地緣政治層級的部會來去協助目前是有哪個單位在協助做這個部分的說服嗎是談判的過程 參與談判的嗎我們除了經濟部 勞動部國家安全相關的有嗎我們有把國安系統的建議國安會有進入嗎經濟部 國發會 財政部國安會這些都在我們談判小組我們希望這個在"},{"start":14135.95,"end":14152.56,"text":"232的部分他的談判他除了談判辦公室之外他必須是到國家安全層級的所以不是只是派員可能是要派相當有影響力的相當影響力的人物來去參與我們是整個政府整體一起決策一起參與"},{"start":14154.472,"end":14174.285,"text":"再來也是跟國家安全相關因為月初華盛頓郵報或者是美方的媒體都有提到說這次的關稅談判是不是有涉及軍購或者是軍事安全等議題應該是有嗎沒有 談判沒有跟軍購相關沒有跟安全領域相關 目前都沒有"},{"start":14175.823,"end":14190.188,"text":"跟委員報告因為我方在談判過程也向美方表達說我國賴清德總統在20月的時候就已經正式公開對外來宣示我國未來國防預算要達到GDP3%"},{"start":14192.129,"end":14214.79,"text":"所以這是我方總統已經正式對外公開承諾所以雙方就這個部分沒有再進一步多做討論院長其實我是建議把安全的議題納入關稅當中因為剛才提到農業很多敏感的產業但是在安全的產業上面其實我們是需要更多更好的技術更多的裝備來去因應中國的威脅那這個部分同時是我們需要購買的"},{"start":14216.672,"end":14232.523,"text":"如果我們是把農業納進去那犧牲部分的農業它是有雙重衝擊的但是在安全領域上面特別是在商購上面當我們購買這些裝備 器具 技術人員的訓練等等它其實是有增加我國籌碼的幫助的"},{"start":14233.343,"end":14249.087,"text":"特別是商購的部分我看之前國防部長有提到商購是不納入軍購裡面的計算的如果我們可以自己創造籌碼來增加讓我們農業有更多的機會的話我希望是可以做的軍購的部分當然就尊重國防部這邊的規劃我想國防部 國安會會有規劃謝謝陳委員謝謝院長 副院長"},{"start":14263.379,"end":14278.945,"text":"下一位請高金素美委員質詢謝謝主席有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":14288.854,"end":14315.529,"text":"高軍委員好院長恭喜你留任留任的原因你應該知道還有很多的事情不敢言恭喜還有很多的事情是需要您解決的我們一起來努力今天有非常多的委員我問到就是媒體的獨家新聞公布台美談判的結果對美投資四年是2500億美元對美採購四年是1300億美元而十年之內再加上1700億美元"},{"start":14318.11,"end":14338.975,"text":"採購加上投資等於5500億這其中有3800億4年之內要執行完畢1700億10年之內要執行完畢另外對於美國視為貿易障礙的項目台灣是全面棄守開放全面進口的"},{"start":14339.685,"end":14354.535,"text":"雖然行政院你們在四個小時之內呢對於這個獨家新聞呢說傳播不實的訊息干擾談判造成了誤導請問一下院長您認為這個假新聞行政院有沒有提高"},{"start":14356.149,"end":14378.195,"text":"我們不輕易對媒體做提告所以裡面有一些是真的還是全面是假的有些敘述的過程是真的但是很多的數字是不正確的所以裡面談的有些問題是真的談到了只是數字不一樣當然談判敘述的過程是對的但內容 數字 以及他寫出的那些條件很多都有所出入"},{"start":14378.675,"end":14403.084,"text":"那行政院是這樣子我們不輕易對媒體提告所謂的出入就是這個數字不一樣而已但是談的過程談的裡面甚至於所謂美國說的貿易障礙台灣全面棄守了這是真的嗎有談貿易障礙但我們沒有全面棄守我們有談市場准入但不至於全面准入如果沒有全面棄守那當然是好事如果全面棄守你要不要負責任"},{"start":14405.702,"end":14418.994,"text":"是總統負責任還是您負責任還是談判的人要負責任好 我今天不是跟你談這則新聞我要講的是這一次的對等關稅可以說是動搖國本的大勢對吧"},{"start":14420.535,"end":14438.291,"text":"我們必須要非常嚴肅非常認真的來討論所以今天才會安排這樣子的一個國事論壇以及我們的質詢特別一直到現在民進黨政府你們都一直都還沒有公佈對等關稅最終的結果是什麼"},{"start":14439.011,"end":14452.598,"text":"還有我們怎麼樣兌買採購的金額還有我們到底會不會開放美國他所說的那些貿易障礙這些我們國人都不清楚所以我們是非常的焦慮我們回顧一下2017年的1月"},{"start":14454.179,"end":14472.997,"text":"川普他就任的第一任總統也就是2018年他就對中國大陸發動了關稅戰2021年的1月川普下台之後從此所謂的貿易關稅戰就成為了大家口中的流行名詞"},{"start":14474.258,"end":14502.827,"text":"一直到2023年川普他出馬競選第二任總統的時候他又公開的誓言說他要用關稅向全世界來宣戰所以其實呢川普他會用關稅發動貿易戰這都是大家知道的事情請問一下政府準備了什麼前瞻了什麼尤其院長你還記得嗎公佈的前一個晚上你讓大家安心的睡覺"},{"start":14503.967,"end":14520.902,"text":"現在安心了沒有我們說我們都沒有睡覺我當然希望國人安心我們一直在努力請問一下你們努力了什麼錢佔了什麼能不能花一點小的時間來跟大家說我們在川普總統大選之前我們在行政院裡面就成立了最美的經貿小組"},{"start":14522.843,"end":14542.1,"text":"那你怎麼會讓我們安心睡覺呢然後第二天結果變成我們的關稅比日本跟韓國還高好啦 院長院長 不要在這邊再繼續回復我們知道的事情而且媒體都清楚知道這個過程大家心裡面都知道這十年來我也知道"},{"start":14542.961,"end":14561.608,"text":"台灣的經濟貿易一直在調整看一下從蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放在同一個籃子裡面然後馬上就推出了新南向政策一直到賴清德總統上台之後他喊出了脫中入北其實講白了就是脫中入美我們看一下這個統計圖"},{"start":14564.189,"end":14580.752,"text":"這個統計圖它是從2015年到2024年兩岸貿易順差還有台美貿易順差的10年的比較圖看一下藍色的藍色的是兩岸貿易順差2015年是636.3億美元2024年是699.8億美元紅色的是台美貿易的順差2015年只有78.4億美元"},{"start":14592.774,"end":14621.025,"text":"到了2024年就增加到649億美元看起來你們嘴巴說的托中成金平平的看這個數據入美呢卻是火紅的大躍進而蔡英文總統說雞蛋不要放到同一個籃子我們很顯然蔡英文總那個賴清德他已經把大部分的雞蛋放到了美國這個大籃子喔而且今年上半年台美貿易的順差已經到了"},{"start":14622.986,"end":14634.811,"text":"552億美元預估全年將會破千億院長請問您這算不算好的成績報告委員其實從2017年開始全球就歷經這個供應鏈的重組"},{"start":14636.832,"end":14653.857,"text":"那台灣也在這個全球供應鏈存儲當中有所變化我再問你們這算不算好的成績副院長請你針對我的回答來回應就好了今天只有15分鐘的時間算不算好成績我們台美順差的這個成長來自於美國算不算好成績好還是不好好還是不好"},{"start":14656.818,"end":14681.223,"text":"這是美國對我告訴的產業需求的成長好還是不好我們對歐盟對新南向的國家也有持續的進展你們不願意說好或不好就表示你們內心清楚知道其實我們的政府眼光非常的短淺為什麼因為就是因為這樣我們賺了美國的太多的錢了所以川普現在對我們動手這十年的投票我看到了兩個結論"},{"start":14686.884,"end":14714.71,"text":"第一個結論是民進黨你們執政之後你們一心想要改變馬英九的親美友日和中的戰略你們想要拉開兩岸緊密的經貿關係而民進黨你們的說辭是因為兩岸經貿如果太緊密的話哪一天大陸如果突然取消對台讓利取消了ECFA之後大陸會發動所謂的窮台現在看起來窮台的不是大陸喔"},{"start":14715.43,"end":14744.531,"text":"我們的經濟成長持續的往上升最親愛的美國是川普川普對台灣關稅的懲罰也勒索我們4000億的美元也連根拔走我們的台積電這恰恰戳破了民進黨你們說大陸會窮台的謊言而我看到的第二個結論是2023年川普他競選第二任總統的時候他誓言就要向全世界"},{"start":14745.071,"end":14760.564,"text":"用關稅來宣戰其中他五度的公開點名台灣賺走了美國的很多錢他還指控台灣偷走了美國的半導體請問院長您接受這個指控嗎"},{"start":14761.616,"end":14789.464,"text":"我們的半導體工業是我們自己在學習摸索你接受這個指控嗎不接受不接受好而這些恐嚇台灣的執政黨你們竟然毫無警覺今年對美貿易出操每個月就破紀錄而親美天美的代價是20%加N的疊加關稅必須要投資美國多少4000億美元這是你們的郭部長說的台積電也變成了美積電"},{"start":14790.904,"end":14809.53,"text":"院長啊 我們親美親到失去理智親美親到完全不設防現在我們就必須要付出這樣的代價而到目前為止真正的協議的內容為什麼要蓋牌是不是因為我們付不起這個代價"},{"start":14810.25,"end":14825.062,"text":"如果產業還繼續留在大陸他們現在負擔會更大但是現在窮台的是誰現在窮台的是誰現在窮台的是誰台灣現在沒有窮台灣現在沒有窮我們沒有窮我們的GDP達到26%以上把它26兆以上我們的經濟成長率也持續的增加我們一點來一點台灣窮隨著主席 請他們先停止好不好"},{"start":14835.911,"end":14859.05,"text":"我覺得今天這兩位你們講得太多了而且一再的反覆現在聽我講台灣曾經眼光非常的長遠也創造了台灣的經濟奇蹟今天我要花一點時間跟你們兩個講真實的前瞻故事希望您還有副院長你們不要再打擾我也希望民進黨你們可以反省一下"},{"start":14860.491,"end":14878.308,"text":"1970年代初全球發生了石油危機台灣的油價暴漲物價也飛漲當時擔任行政院長的蔣經國他推動了十大建設因而擴大了台灣的內需市場為下一個階段的經濟發展奠定了非常穩定的基礎"},{"start":14880.15,"end":14895.262,"text":"當時這個十大建設是在內外非常艱困的經濟環境之下從1973年一直到1979年我們花了大概7年的時間推動完成的總共的花費是1947億相當於1975年當時我們政府的總預算的2.5倍"},{"start":14902.347,"end":14925.732,"text":"當時政府的資金也不足也借了外債今天我們回顧一下這段歷史我相信大家都會同意十大建設的經濟效益到現在仍然對台灣發揮著非常重大的影響我要講第二個前瞻是1970年代末李國鼎的政委他推動的科學園區"},{"start":14926.952,"end":14951.05,"text":"他找回了張周謀先生成立的台積電當時連美國IBM公司老闆都說李國鼎啊你瘋了啊這個為台積電籌出這麼樣的巨額的經費但是現在我們十幾年之後回頭看一下如果沒有趙三哲李國鼎如果沒有護國神山台積電"},{"start":14952.091,"end":14977.921,"text":"在那個經濟處於三次加工的年代裡面在那個我們國家財政根本都還沒有非常豐厚的年代這兩個非常有前瞻眼光的領導人他用投資台灣的具體行動把台灣帶起了經濟起飛的年代帶來了數十年的繁榮院長我想請問你你有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞"},{"start":14980.401,"end":15005.071,"text":"你有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞你都同意嗎 現在我問你有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞有沒有聽過世界簡易這個名詞如果沒有的話我現在告訴你世界簡易現在全世界都是在討論就是說全世界的貿易是百分之百而全世界跟美國的貿易只有佔百分之十三點六"},{"start":15005.831,"end":15024.312,"text":"如果全世界我們不要了美國市場那麼還有86.4%的世界大市場我們為什麼要讓美國予取予求無盡的勒索我們如果拒絕川普的20%加n疊加的關稅我們拒絕跟美國貿易往來然後用川普勒索我們的4000億美金"},{"start":15026.135,"end":15038.735,"text":"投資我們自己的台灣投資我們的下一代發揮四五十年前台灣中小企業的精神那個就是拉著一卡皮箱全世界闖蕩的做貿易做訂單"},{"start":15040.225,"end":15065.443,"text":"那麼我們將會有世界簡易的 聽好86.4%的大市場任由我們的企業家自由的揮灑而我們如果拒絕了美國我們還可以不要吃美國的毒豬 毒牛我們的孩子也可以不要吃美國基改食品也不要進口美國的大米院長 你不要跟我說你沒有聽過有人會這麼做我告訴你"},{"start":15069.005,"end":15095.26,"text":"巴西印度現在就是這麼做還有院長你千萬不要再說我以美論看一下我過去懷疑美國的所有事情現在川普都在做現在請兩位看一下這段影片And don't let some of these politicians go around saying you knowcause I'm telling you these countries are calling us up kissing my ass kissing my ass kissing my ass"},{"start":15096.141,"end":15109,"text":"川普笑你們這些親美的人排著對親他的那兩個字我都不好意思說了你不認為這是一個侮辱嗎 院長這不是我們國家會做的事情這是不是一個侮辱"},{"start":15111.031,"end":15125.916,"text":"親美貼美是不是我們現在正在做的事情既然是這樣你同不同意我說拒絕跟美國做生意因為我們有86.4%的全世界大市場美國只有占13.4%而已最後我要提醒院長最後我要提醒院長"},{"start":15134.11,"end":15152.932,"text":"美國公布台灣官會20%的時候呢我就主張這個協議必須要送到立法院來討論並且要經過公民覆決一直到現在這個時刻為止我都堅持這樣的主張你同意嗎"},{"start":15153.971,"end":15169.482,"text":"依照條約締結法我們將談判的結果送交國會審議通過這是必要的好 人民絕對是你們最好的後盾學韓國一樣好好利用人民的拒絕的聲音給你們做談判最後的基準"},{"start":15170.262,"end":15195.633,"text":"台灣的經濟貿易的未來必須要由全民來決定聽好了不是由賴清德不是由您不是由副院長還有你們所謂的經貿小組也不是由民進黨政府來決定的台灣的經貿的未來是要由全民來決定的謝謝運作必須依照憲法"},{"start":15197.86,"end":15207.492,"text":"謝謝高經委員謝謝左院長還有副院長報告院會上午質詢到此為止下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":21605.39,"end":21632.315,"text":"保安院會現在繼續開會進行專案報告質詢請李委員 昆城質詢副院長 我們請我們的卓院長還有鄭副院長"},{"start":21633.959,"end":21649.472,"text":"請卓院長還有鄭副院長兩位請背書李委員好"},{"start":21650.827,"end":21677.376,"text":"院長好 副院長好 辛苦了今天也是對於關稅的問題請教院長跟副院長我想請教一下在今年5月14號的時候美國的財政部長他有提到就是說我們跟台灣對於關稅的談判台灣有一個非常好的一個提案這是在5月14號的時候那時候"},{"start":21678.67,"end":21703.832,"text":"報導出來的時候 大家覺得說台灣不錯因為從4月初美國提出關稅之後32%大家嚇得心驚膽跳結果到5月10幾號的時候美國財政部長說台灣有提出一個很不錯的提案我們就相信說我們的行政團隊一定跟美國提出了一些很不錯的一些deal有可能關稅搞不好在5月中下旬就有可能確定了這是5月中的事情"},{"start":21704.918,"end":21727.944,"text":"但是到了7月7號的時候美國財政部長貝森特他有提到他就說如果沒有跟美國來達成這個協議的話戒指關稅會反彈到4月2號川普那時候宣布的高額的關稅32%這兩個月不到的時間我想請問一下院長跟副院長這段時間裡面"},{"start":21732.773,"end":21740.528,"text":"對於關稅的談判有發生了什麼樣的一個變化是不是本來有覺得一個不錯的提案那美國也樂於接受"},{"start":21741.894,"end":21767.023,"text":"但是後來為什麼兩個月之後美國財政部長覺得說如果沒有談完有可能會到32%雖然我們最後是到20%左右這個是院長或是副院長要來答覆謝謝委員的確我們在4月開始啟動談判其實經過四輪的實體談判跟十多次的視訊其實每一次的談判都有所進展都保持正向的發展"},{"start":21768.343,"end":21796.277,"text":"我們談判的對口貿易代表署跟商務部我們雙方都有進展對方也有速度表達其實我們有達到一定程度的共識不過您所說的在接近期限之前美方當時曾經因為本來是7月9號到期延到7月底希望在7月底之前大家也都希望各國都希望跟美國達成共識我方也希望跟美國達成利誘"},{"start":21797.162,"end":21822.299,"text":"但是最後的確雙方沒有能夠達成地有美方有清楚的告訴我們其實是因為台灣的逆差結構裡面佔有九成是來自半導體ICT而這部分聯動的美國232正在調查中關稅政策未定那有些併談對等跟232併談的國家像日韓歐盟他們涉及的232項目有汽車有鋼等等"},{"start":21822.839,"end":21835.413,"text":"那這些相對的他的稅率是定的相對他們的項目比較單純台灣的聚焦在半導體跟ICT所以我們在五月初那時候談判的時候聖博有把這個半導體還有我們資中訊產品一起納進來談所以那時候他講說這個"},{"start":21837.856,"end":21856.252,"text":"有非常好的提案是沒有包括這裡面嗎在這個提案裡面其實主要是我們有提出希望能夠平衡貿易逆差因為像大家都了解對等關稅談判的起源是因為貿易逆差台灣是美國第六大的逆差國所以我們也希望透過關稅非關稅貿易障礙以及採購等等相關的"},{"start":21858.114,"end":21882.675,"text":"所以說當時候美國的財政部長說這個非常好的提案裡面來平衡貿易逆差但是這些提案的是一個範疇雙方談判會變動因為我們面對是一個非傳統的經貿談判美方也會每一次都會提出他的要求尤其他跟各國在談所以各國的談判的條件也會影響美方的要求的期待跟談判的進程"},{"start":21883.476,"end":21908.413,"text":"所以它是一個互相影響變動的進行過程當中來前進但是我必須要跟委員報告是說其實台美的談判是有階段性的進展因此從32來調整成20但是的確我們在逆差結構中涉及有一部分是屬於232調查的項目而在8月1號前當時美國的政策還未定所以台美必須要就這個供應鏈合作跟232的項目並談一起談"},{"start":21910.814,"end":21925.01,"text":"那其他涉及232項目像日韓歐盟他們相對的項目有的是比較明確的已經有相關的稅率所以他們也是把對等跟232並談有取得一定的成果所以我方後續"},{"start":21925.751,"end":21943.381,"text":"的目標就是對等跟232關稅一併談然後我們也要在最終觸及最終稅率的談判的時候來爭取不疊加那這三個目標我們已經都在最近的三次視訊會議當中有提出我方的要求跟表達那副院長最近還要再去美國嗎"},{"start":21944.586,"end":21957.613,"text":"我們大概最近8月1號以後有經過了三次視訊那我上午有提到我們最近一次就是上個禮拜五那我想我們當然任何可能性有利於談判的安排我們都會來積極努力"},{"start":21958.221,"end":21986.44,"text":"當然最終就是要朝著總結會議來所以接下來的關稅確定之前還會再去美國嗎還是用視訊就可以了我想應該是最後總結會議也一定應該要在美國來進行我們也有表達我們隨時都可以去我知道院長給你一個空白的價單你隨時都可以去美國有需要就隨時去美國我們全力的支持團辦團隊積極的把我們的方案準備好隨時在雙方時間都能夠"},{"start":21988.641,"end":22008.674,"text":"談妥的時候我們就主動能夠去到美國跟他們談判所以我想我們就最後談判的進程我們每一次跟美方視訊都有就下一步以及後續的時程也要一併的持續的進行磋商那因為美方達成協議的方式有很多那我們也希望說就這個部分來一併討論"},{"start":22010.255,"end":22020.769,"text":"同樣在8月中的時候這個一樣是美國財政部長被深特他提到關稅應如榮兵他預估在10月底之前完成多數的談判"},{"start":22022.162,"end":22047.638,"text":"他說這個像關稅跟冰塊一樣有可能融化最後呢有可能是降低甚至取消那我們有辦法有達到這個機會嗎我想這個Beson部長他的這個發言裡面很重要有一個時辰的一個訊息就是美方有提到說希望還沒有達成協議的國家在10月底前那我也想跟委員報告就是說7月31號美國公布的行政命令裡面"},{"start":22048.398,"end":22071.229,"text":"台灣是列在NX-1附入一的國家那裡面特別提到說以同意或接近與美國完成協議與安全貿易與安全協議在後續與美國完成協議並經總統發布命令載明協議條件之前適用現在這個稅率所以也就是說最後我們必須要談判然後達成協議然後再經由雙方公佈協議所達成的這個條件"},{"start":22073.786,"end":22096.842,"text":"那這樣就是可以完成這樣的談判來決定這個最終的稅率所以目前台灣就是處於一個上需要我們接近完成協議但需要來談後續完成協議並來發布相關協議的條件那你們有沒有預估在10月底或是更早譬如說現在已經快8月下旬了有沒有可能在9月的時候就完成這個關稅談判我想美方財政部長所說的是一個他們general的形成"},{"start":22097.522,"end":22118.045,"text":"當然以我方的看法我們應該是要越快越好有可能在這個期限之前九月就達成關稅的協定嗎這都是我們努力的目標因為我們知道有些產業它受到的衝擊比較大我想每一天對他們都是辛苦的所以我們會積極努力那是有機會降到20%以下"},{"start":22119.606,"end":22146.084,"text":"我們現在20%是我看院長有在點頭啊努力啊我們的目標當然就是要努力我也知道啊 要努力到20%那我是說就你們現在談判的這個這個跟對方的這樣子談判的這個過程來講20%以下有沒有機會其實在7月31號我們在最後希望達成協議的過程當中跟美方也是有所溝通那也就是因為台灣有關於相關供應鏈的合作跟232要並談"},{"start":22147.014,"end":22170.056,"text":"所以我們希望後續對等232並談我們一併希望把對等關稅再降我們也同時爭取232的優惠目前大概我們的工具機模具 塑膠製品還有電子材料這一個受到關稅影響比較大因為我們主要競爭對手不論是韓國或是說德國甚至日本 越南 墨西哥等等他們有的關稅跟我們一樣但是在"},{"start":22170.797,"end":22199.017,"text":"工具機的方面的話我們明顯是受到影響我們的這個累加的關稅比起來就是會比主要競爭對手還要多那我現在主要在談因為剛剛有提到這個半導體這232的條款的這部分那目前當然因為台積電還有我們半導體有到美國去設廠我們就是關稅就是零那我想請問一下那接下來的這個談判過程當中我相信美國他們也可能需要或是說希望台灣的除了這一個"},{"start":22200.157,"end":22229.008,"text":"我們的半導體到美國去投資之外因為半導體它是整個產業鏈不是只有半導體還有上游 中游 下游在談判的過程當中有沒有可能就是說因為接下來因為它是先從半導體移到美國去設廠然後就給你零關稅接下來有可能會不會整個上中下游的產業鏈因為半導體已經過去了也會跟著一起過去美國去做投資如果這部分的話台灣有什麼樣的營運的一個方向"},{"start":22229.901,"end":22247.303,"text":"我想我們近期也積極的跟高科技產業界來座談那除了半導體產業也包括半導體上游材料設備產物那以及這個下游AI Server跟以及相關EMS等產業來了解我國的這個企業目前在美投資佈局的情形"},{"start":22247.793,"end":22271.378,"text":"因為我們要立即於我們的產業佈局的現況以及他們未來的期待你現在不過去投資的話那未來他們就是給你關稅嘛對不對這個部分就是在我們這幾次的談判當中我們也努力要去了解美方在232關稅可能的走向那目前因為看到揭露的資訊相對有限所以我們有持續性的在了解他們可能的"},{"start":22272.118,"end":22293.331,"text":"因為談判過程當中就是像比如說台積電去設廠了那就關稅就零那他當然我認為啦他希望說不是只有半導體過去他可能希望說整個產業鏈都能夠到美國去做投資那是跟委員報告在232調查的項目裡面除了半導體還有半導體設備那麼以及半導體衍生品其實當時在對等關稅這個公佈的時候"},{"start":22298.113,"end":22302.45,"text":"也有提到除了半導體半導體設備跟這個衍生品其實還有像"},{"start":22304.045,"end":22331.546,"text":"關鍵礦物 藥品 木材等等我的意思就是台灣是所以我們自動訊產業半導體這麼發達因為我們有產業鏈在台灣不論你是在竹科 中科 南科這個產業鏈是美國現在沒辦法去複製的但是如果萬一我們的半導體它要求我們去設廠那是不是未來有可能有可能說我們這些上中下游有可能也過去但是把這個當成是投資美國的一部分"},{"start":22332.841,"end":22340.998,"text":"這樣子會不會讓美國覺得說這些也到去美國去投資在跟他們講關稅談判的時候有沒有更多的利基點在經濟部來談一下產業的狀況"},{"start":22343.051,"end":22368.601,"text":"跟委員報告基本上就是說整個AI產業鏈它是從上游到下游其實除了AI晶片以外最重要的是伺服器因為我們台美之間最大的一個順差的來源大概就是伺服器還有顯示卡所以這個部分確實是整個如果要建構AI產業鏈的話確實是可能上中下游可能這些產業可能都有需要"},{"start":22370.202,"end":22395.838,"text":"會到美國去做一些投資當然現在產業工會他們也在有這樣的一些行動做一些準備所以我是回到4月初賴總統他所講的投資台灣投資美國對就是說我們要加碼投資美國形成台灣加一就是說藉由投資美國也帶動台灣的產業再次發展就是說"},{"start":22398.88,"end":22417.165,"text":"院長那時候有講過就是說美國要再次強大也讓台灣再次強大所以我剛才問說如果我們這些產業也到美國去投資的話那第一個他可能會要求因為不論是美國是韓國是日本他都要求你去做投資嘛不論是日本的5500億或是說這個韓國3500億我相信"},{"start":22420.666,"end":22437.431,"text":"他也會要求我們去做一些投資那這些投資就是我剛才所講的是包含那些產業的投資不曉得是不是在這次的談判裡面也能夠當成是我們過去投資然後用這東西來降低關稅的一個一個談判的籌碼我跟委員講幾個原則第一個"},{"start":22441.073,"end":22462.192,"text":"產業跟流台灣尤其是高科技產業必須維持台灣現在關鍵領先地位這個政策政府跟民間業者都有共識所以一定要跟流台灣全球佈局以台灣加一的方式去同時最高科技領先在台灣地位研發在台灣這個原則都不會改變至於細節上我們跟美國怎麼談"},{"start":22462.873,"end":22489.825,"text":"那希望我們怎麼去做投資副院長再來做我想美國的確有他振興製造業這樣的一個目標那尤其是 AI 跟這個半導體相關未來產業供應鏈不過我想談判雙方從台灣的立場我們希望談的是供應鏈的合作然後也是要有利於我國產業的一個國際的佈局所以在這樣的一個原則底下我們來跟美方來討論這個供應鏈的合作跟投資的"},{"start":22490.685,"end":22519.184,"text":"這個佈局因為過去雙方的產業高度互補他們研發創新我們有製造的優勢那我們的產業也已經到了這個正在擴大國際佈局的階段所以未來我們台灣加一在美國如何擴大投資佈局但同時達到雙方互利互補雙贏的一個供應鏈的合作這是我們談判的目標也在此這樣的一個共同的戰略目標底下能夠來爭取更好的這個稅率對等稅率以及232優惠"},{"start":22520.685,"end":22538.375,"text":"謝謝副院長那我接下來這一題我請這個總裁央行總裁先過來一下因為現在除了關稅之外還有匯率那所以呢工具機業者他就說是不是建議政府呢採取這個防禦性的匯率的這個調控這是一個那另外就是說那這個"},{"start":22540.911,"end":22553.043,"text":"經濟學者普遍預期就是說下半年度台灣的經濟成長可能會趨緩所以亞洲的主要一些銀行分別會採取降息的這些手段請問我們的央行會採取降息的手段嗎"},{"start":22567.5,"end":22594.098,"text":"經濟成長率都好不過的情況之下向期的結果全部不大"},{"start":22595.916,"end":22623.065,"text":"好 謝謝 我們時間到謝謝李委員 謝謝院長下一位請黃建豪委員質詢好 謝謝大委主席我們一樣先請卓榮泰院長以及請剛剛還沒有回答完的我們央行的總裁 楊慶隆總裁 謝謝來 請卓院長還有央行的總裁備詢"},{"start":22632.435,"end":22638.427,"text":"謝謝 黃議員好院長好 總裁好我想先剛剛李委員剛剛問到一半因為後面沒有"},{"start":22639.707,"end":22662.427,"text":"生意沒有記錄我在這邊正式再跟總裁詢問一下因為我想產業界都非常關心除了稅率之外匯率當然大家也非常關心那匯率之外影響的當然就是我們經濟成長會不會降息的可能性我想請總裁因為這個今天我現在問你這個問題這個才有語音記錄我想請問總裁我們今年有降息的可能如果因為上半年確實我想因為中間這段時間"},{"start":22663.928,"end":22691.267,"text":"美國關稅這個休息的期間大家大量出貨所以看起來經濟成長動能是很強但是就我們所收到民間的訊息很多的工具機產業很多機械業很多的產業界這些製造業他們預估他們認為下半年的景氣可能出貨量不會像上半年這麼暢旺所以有可能這個經濟成長可能又下修了在這個傳統產業的部分所以大家想問的是說有沒有可能下半年都有降息的可能性總裁是"},{"start":22692.792,"end":22705.72,"text":"中央銀行的一個調整利率我們不會是針對某一個產業我們是看整體的我們的一個判斷的標準第一個就是經濟成長率"},{"start":22708.45,"end":22736.823,"text":"物價 就誠如我剛剛所說的我們經濟成長率今年即使我們今年的上半年我們經濟成長率大概是在6.75%但是我們的後半年還有將近2.3%所以整個來講的話我們整年的經濟成長率是在4.45%這個是我們主力總署最新的一個評估的資料"},{"start":22737.583,"end":22760.807,"text":"那就以我們的物價來看的話大概是在2%下面一些我們的匯率如果說就匯率來看因為現在大家都是在關心匯率的問題事實上我們從1月到現在8月22號就上個禮拜五來看的話我們新台幣的匯率是上漲了7.18%但是我們的7.18%"},{"start":22765.356,"end":22783.443,"text":"跟日元 日元是6.98 才差0.2個百分點而已跟韓元來比較是差了0.78個百分點但是日本的經濟成長率 前半年的經濟成長率它才1.5% 韓國是0.25%我們台灣差很多"},{"start":22790.117,"end":22805.268,"text":"所以我就說我們的新台幣的匯率即使是7.18比日元跟韓元來得高了一點點但是我們的基本面都比他們好好很多總裁沒關係這個稍後會討論到實際產業面的需求"},{"start":22805.968,"end":22814.213,"text":"是 我想我們九月份的禮監事會會來討論這個問題好 總裁謝謝好 今天針對今天主題我想 院長我想這個對等關稅的稅率行政院當然目前認為說我們總體減少了沖刑從32%降到20%那我想問一下院長這個是因為我們看到數據其實我們這個川普他從"},{"start":22829.341,"end":22857.067,"text":"台灣時間7月23號開始陸陸續續的宣布了日本跟菲律賓跟印尼還有南海各國達成的協議台灣這邊是到8月1號我想我們看到賴總統說所以獲得階段性成果從32%調降到20%但20%從一開始就不是台灣談判的目標所以希望在後續談判中能夠爭取更有利更合理的稅率我想請問一下這個20%是談判的結果"},{"start":22859.527,"end":22874.299,"text":"還是說這個是單方面美國認為先這樣子以後再談當然目前是暫時性的對等關稅有我們的記憶有的關稅加上這個對等關稅20%是目前暫時性的我們在努力爭取更好更合理的一個稅率"},{"start":22874.875,"end":22888.986,"text":"我想問院長 也想請教副院長就是從32%到20%這個中間我們做了哪些努力或是我們拿了哪些條件所以可以先20%那後續又需要拿什麼出來談"},{"start":22891.225,"end":22918.95,"text":"還有可能再往下降這20%到底是談判互動的結果因為看其他國家的數據可能不然南韓也好 日本也好他們是承諾了一筆投資金額跟內容所以他獲得15%的匯率委員所提到的像日韓 歐盟等或者有些東南亞國家是完成談判的國家他說雙方有達成地友台美的談判我們過去幾個月的確有進展但是因為我們還沒有達成協議所以美方"},{"start":22920.317,"end":22937.045,"text":"階段性的暫時性的將台灣的對等稅率從32調整為20那當然我們的總稅率就是要再加上我們原來的這個美國對各國的MFN那是把它加起來但這是一個階段性暫時性的稅率因為台美還在繼續談判當中"},{"start":22939.486,"end":22952.851,"text":"我們過去兩三週以來也都持續在談我想謝謝副院長我想就是因為還在談判當中我們也知道所以今天才有這張質詢那我們看到前面其他國家的案例包含說日本包含韓國那我們要舉韓國"},{"start":22954.991,"end":22978.708,"text":"韓國他們包含提到這個造船的計畫我想大家看到新聞都很清楚他們確實也承諾要投資美國所謂3500億的部分但是3500億裡面又包含了說包含說製造他們的船塢的製造業這個船的製造業能夠這個造船業也能夠協助美國產業但同時他對南韓當地的就業又當地的工業有正面的幫助"},{"start":22979.068,"end":22999.9,"text":"所以要問的說像南韓這樣子的案例未來有沒有可能放在我們後續談判的過程裡面大家很關注嘛不管是你現在談的二三案條款的問題還是我們軍購的問題或是其他的產業我們跟美國一直在講說今天台灣之所以會有這麼龐大的貿易順差這去年的700多億就源自於說我們有大量的廠商去投資美國"},{"start":23000.64,"end":23023.223,"text":"那這投資美國廠商在大量跟台灣回購很多的設施跟器材我光講今年上半年從台灣採購的廠房設備等等的跟去年同期相比成長了56倍這表示說其實雙方的貿易雙方的投資廠房是非常密集的但是這個緣起是因為我們受美國的邀請"},{"start":23023.982,"end":23035.928,"text":"去投資很多廠房去投資這個產業那這裡面是合作關係啊就像今天他們南韓的造船業一樣是合作關係把合作關係帶進去是不是有機會降低我們未來其他產業的關稅"},{"start":23037.505,"end":23055.118,"text":"報告委員我是不能夠帶韓方跟美方回答不過就我們這樣觀察就是韓國除了3500億的投資承諾之外可能還有第二筆那麼他們在當時達成deal的時候美方是有宣布說還有第二筆的投資可能會帶雙方領導人"},{"start":23056.904,"end":23084.022,"text":"再去匯商所以我們看到像日韓 歐盟等他們基本上都是對等跟232關稅並談也就是有相關的供應鏈的合作然後同時爭取對等稅率以及232優惠的稅率對不起 我不是很面對現實啦投資美國或是說這個部分貿易出現是事實擺在眼前那川普就針對這件事情他當然要去做對的關稅嘛"},{"start":23085.684,"end":23098.423,"text":"這個我沒有意見我沒有反對就是大家面對現實就是事實就是如此但今天問題談的是說我們去投資也好我們不管那個金額多少那個投資的金額有沒有可能像比照南韓某一個產業也好"},{"start":23099.244,"end":23125.26,"text":"他們就以造船業為例嘛他的這個資金他的這個工業的這個製造的就業率或他產出的產品對他對美國當然是有利的但對南韓自己本身也是有利的那今天台灣有沒有這樣的條件或是有沒有哪一個產業可以做這樣子的籌碼去做這件事情後續我們要談的確就是希望說雙方供應鏈的合作是互利互補雙贏的這樣的一個模式來協商所以"},{"start":23125.62,"end":23151.395,"text":"我們會站在我國企業在赴美擴大投資的過程當中一起企業跟政府我們一起共同有共識然後一起跟美方來協商然後在這個供應鏈合作的過程我們要爭取好的稅率所以這個是要整體一起來來談判來討論我想今天整天到目前為止我想今天都談這個關稅的問題那我們也知道說去年我們整體對美出口是1114億左右美元"},{"start":23152.896,"end":23177.427,"text":"今天整個上午的對話裡面一直提到說我們二三二條款的關係台灣有很多產業大概九成以上的產業都涉及到二三二條款所以我們談判必須暫時的先有為所謂暫時的處分暫時的關稅是20%今天我要問的是說我們1114億裡面我們占比最高的出口美國最高兩個產業"},{"start":23179.305,"end":23208.285,"text":"我們在這個2004年美國自台進口如果以美國的數字來看1162億裡面有關232的項目是944億那這當中的半導體及其衍生品是738億好 沒關係 副院長我要講的是說你看半導體 資通訊產業基本上佔了大部分我們出口的總額是最高的所以這也是美方認為為什麼要更多時間跟台灣來談就是因為這樣 我要拜託我們的談判代表"},{"start":23209.906,"end":23217.896,"text":"因為今天台灣之水有這麼大的貿易順差是因為我們的半導體也好我們的自動機產業也好我們確實賺很多錢"},{"start":23219.386,"end":23244.061,"text":"我們有產業的實力但也因為美方對我高科技需求的成長譬如說過去這幾年像我們AI Server的成長其實也是美對我高科技需求的成長我們短短的跟美方表達說事實上台美供應鏈是互補合作的台灣的製造支持美國的研發創新所以我們希望說雙方未來能夠朝向一個互利互惠的方式"},{"start":23244.301,"end":23269.151,"text":"今天我們要講的就是說 講白話其實我們在產業 在地方上來自台中嘛 非常多的製造業跟傳產大家心裡的苦是什麼半導體賺這麼多錢但是今天承擔苦果的是大家就所有中小企業這些機械業 這些工具企業大家一起承擔這個後果所以我要拜託的民眾 拜託台灣代表會說今天能不能分開處理"},{"start":23270.677,"end":23291.758,"text":"你二三個條款半導體產業鏈這個電子通訊業這個是美國這邊他們確實有給我們採購的需要或是說雙方的貿易需要合作但是扣掉這一筆之後我想真的你把這個所謂的半導體自通訊產業扣掉之後我們整體的貿易並沒有想像中這麼高的順差"},{"start":23292.839,"end":23313.809,"text":"但是反而是讓所有人來承擔包含機械業 包含供應產業後續趕快推進談判然後在供應聯合作有共識之後我們就希望可以把對等關稅再降下來讓我們的相關的傳統產業能夠減緩相關現在面對的衝擊這個的確是我們談判小組最大的一個目標"},{"start":23314.789,"end":23331.215,"text":"我們在跟美國的貿易的美國的逆差方面我們有九成就來自這些半導體自動性產業所以我們也知道我們無論如何對半導體之外的其他產業包括中小企業我們政府要用更大的產業支持來協助他們"},{"start":23331.835,"end":23347.2,"text":"那每個國家都有他工業的優勢像您剛剛提到韓國他在造船有優勢我們在半導體有優勢但這個產業我們要讓他維持世界領先那其他的我們要在這波的這個關稅貿易秩序重整當中我們要把他拉起來讓他不要受到"},{"start":23348.1,"end":23376.044,"text":"產業的這個衝擊這是現在政府幾套方向在走 同時並行是啦 院長 因為你看數字這是你們行政院今年4月是要提供的數字我們對美 這個電子資訊出口美國就占了792億那去年 其實說真的我們的順差也只有739億你光是扣掉電子資訊通訊業之後其實我們是沒有順差的但是今天這個成果就是今天這樣子經濟成果你說好是很好但是今天因為有這關稅的問題我還是要再次強調今天是所有的"},{"start":23379.071,"end":23400.783,"text":"產業 傳產 農業大家一起來承擔這個苦果所以我們談判的過程裡面希望能夠分開來處理那其他的逆差方面跟美國逆差方面我們用一些採購投資就已經可以達到平衡我們也嘗試這樣表達過這個我們也都跟美方有表達過但現在因為的確美方也希望說整體一起看待所以我們現在就是最後一個關鍵的階段我們希望一併把它磋商完畢"},{"start":23401.53,"end":23415.347,"text":"好 最後面對現實因為剩兩分鐘而已面對現實當然這個東西在談判中工具機產業或是機械業確實到現在為止造成很大的衝擊我當然坦白今天上午有些業者知道我要質詢還特別打電話跟我講說因為去年2024年"},{"start":23416.829,"end":23442.028,"text":"台灣的機械過去兩大出口貿易對象一個是美國 一個是中國但去年因為ECFA所謂零關稅部分它的條件部分中止了所以機械去年受到重擊所以很多人在去年布局的時候的確又轉去美國但今年又受到美國的關稅影響他們現在不知道怎麼辦那既然不知道怎麼辦我要問的是說政府有沒有什麼手段協助他們去尋找其他市場第二個"},{"start":23443.663,"end":23447.934,"text":"萬一後續8月 9月 10月開始真的有失業率發生的時候我們準備了什麼事情"},{"start":23448.302,"end":23476.651,"text":"我們會幫我們的產業到國外去聯合辦展覽的方式推銷我們的產品另外我們會多元市場的開拓比方說歐盟比較印度比較南向國家另外我們會用台灣品牌來加強台灣產品在世界上的認同度用優質的台灣品牌來推出我們的各項的產品我們希望這樣來實質幫助那對參展或是其他的多元市場開拓我們在產業支持的方案裡面我們都有實質的預算來支柱"},{"start":23478.391,"end":23498.972,"text":"我們希望盡快啦因為像以台中為例我們必須講從台中出發我想市府也先編那一筆當然很多業者去參展所以自行車剛回來他們一年至少在過那一段時間他們去歐洲參展他們拿回了250萬美金的這個訂單五天他們希望一年內大概會有450萬美金就光台中而已那其他地方當然還有嘛"},{"start":23499.372,"end":23518.867,"text":"這是第一個部分所以我們當然希望說拓展其他國家的市場我覺得可能是面對美國關係所以必須面對現實所以怎麼樣去協助其他產業剛剛我講了資通訊產業那個是另外一件事情但是今天我們要顧的是傳產更多就業人口可能幾百萬的就業人口這部分我們要怎麼樣去把它轉出去這是第一個部分再來就是說"},{"start":23520.228,"end":23538.88,"text":"我看到我們的方案裡面很多是針對貸款的利率 貸款的間隙但是要講如果都已經沒有錢了我覺得那不是貸款問題是要紓困 院長你認同嗎金融支持我們有多項的金融支持我們還有一些行政成本的降低還有一些租稅的優惠我們都同時展開"},{"start":23549.595,"end":23556.699,"text":"謝謝黃委員 謝謝院長 副院長下一位請陳廷飛委員質詢謝謝副院長 我是請卓院長請卓院長備詢還有副院長還有鄭副院長請備詢"},{"start":23585.271,"end":23612.836,"text":"陳國元好院長好 副院長好大家辛苦了其實我們整個談判團隊真的很用心很努力其實我們看到美國的態度所有的國家每一個世界各國其實都面臨了很大的壓力所以我相信你們在前線在做這樣的一個談判壓力也非常的大因為你們帶著所有台灣人民的期待"},{"start":23613.516,"end":23629.828,"text":"可是我們又要保護我們自己的產業又要把我們產業的根留在台灣所以真的是很辛苦可是因為我們在談判的過程當中資訊回到台灣是很複雜的"},{"start":23631.269,"end":23659.228,"text":"所以有很多不同階段的訊息而造成了我們台灣自己本身產業有很多誤解所以其實我光用這個所謂關稅疊不疊加的問題我想這個應該是最近我們的媒體當中其實最多論述最多討論的但是我覺得有必要把它一次澄清"},{"start":23660.169,"end":23683.849,"text":"其實如果依照關稅疊加的部分我找了所有的資料我沒有詢問你們我自己找資料我發現如果以美國官方公布的其實關稅不疊加的只有歐盟各國其他就算我們在談的日本它也還在協議當中並沒有正式對外公布"},{"start":23685.158,"end":23705.966,"text":"我們台灣是在努力當中所有的國家也都在努力當中所以為什麼有人就用所謂的我們在騙基本上我們關稅要疊加我們還說20%我們沒有騙我們要先把這個基底談好"},{"start":23707.898,"end":23722.459,"text":"那關稅疊加是每個國家都這樣並不是只有台灣是只有歐盟沒有是所有的國家都面臨現在這個狀況可是你這個基底還沒有談好"},{"start":23723.462,"end":23740.05,"text":"你怎麼再說下一步所以我覺得這個部分應該要先釐清讓所有台灣人民知道而不是不同的訊息不同的民意代表所說的會讓人家誤解副院長是不是"},{"start":23740.55,"end":23759.582,"text":"是 委員的觀察完全的正確因為美國對各國本來就有它的MFN也就是原稅率台灣自然也在原稅率的對象裡面只有洽簽雙邊協議有FTA的國家他們就沒有原稅率有些品項沒有"},{"start":23760.262,"end":23774.35,"text":"那的確在所有達成協議的國家裡面目前看到的是歐盟在最終達成協議談判最終稅率的時候那麼歐盟有不疊加MFN原稅率來這樣的做最終的稅率的這個決定"},{"start":23775.47,"end":23798.722,"text":"那日本有表達去爭取但目前的確也要帶美方來證實最後的這個結果那台灣因為我們還在談判中我們現在取得的20%加上MA分是從32降下來是一個階段性的一個結果那我們持續談判等到我們在談最終稅率的時候我想最終就會來決定要不要"},{"start":23799.242,"end":23815.545,"text":"再加上MFN不過我可以跟委員報告的是說我們最近三次的視訊會議當中我們已經表達希望爭取不要疊加MFN這也是我方的立場我們會積極努力來爭取所以我們到目前為止我們的態度都沒改變"},{"start":23816.94,"end":23838.875,"text":"我想從卓院長對外 也是說我們現在在努力中啊我們當然要努力不疊加嘛 這是我們的方向所以我覺得我們應該要對外把這樣的一個定調而不是說 哇 因為不同的立場然後好像在唱衰我們這一個整個談判的過程我覺得真的是不好的"},{"start":23839.375,"end":23859.018,"text":"因為當你在做政治口水的時候基本上也會傷害到我們的產業也會讓我們的產業沒有信心我們前線在努力所有的談判團隊每天我們的視訊會議我們整個包括他給我們的時間我們要一直等待"},{"start":23859.679,"end":23879.506,"text":"大家是這樣子繃緊神經我覺得是要給大家鼓勵的所以這個部分我覺得因為我明明所看到的資訊跟媒體當中的資訊其實是有很大的落差我覺得應該趁這個機會讓我們的卓院長跟鄭副院長把它表達清楚"},{"start":23880.106,"end":23908.711,"text":"非常感謝委員一句話您的這番話對行政團隊尤其對談判團隊是正面的非常大的一個鼓勵當我們在談判的時候我們如果想到我們的國人是希望我們去爭取更好的而不是一直說我們是在欺騙國人這個對談判團隊的心理素質是影響很大更何況如果我們的對手看我們國內是這種狀況的話他會覺得跟我們談判他可能會得到更多我們現在還沒有辦法跟他談的過程"},{"start":23909.15,"end":23929.725,"text":"所以謝謝委員這樣正向的一個鼓勵我們會珍惜但是我們會利用這樣的鼓勵我們請談判團隊據理力爭為國家爭取最大利益一定要加油啦因為我也不能接受用欺騙兩個字因為我們在前線有很多真的還沒有到談判的結果我們不能公佈啊"},{"start":23931.57,"end":23954.609,"text":"你來我往的過程當中每一個都是機密每一個都是重點那當然我們知道我們要保護我們的產業我們一定要保護我們自己能夠保護的最後一個底線談判代表比誰都知道所以我覺得真的今天會利用這個時間去把這個疊加的部分因為"},{"start":23955.543,"end":23970.588,"text":"我覺得很難過啦因為我們也不能替你們說話我們就希望說能夠用這樣的訊息我自己去找的我說奇怪明明在美國官方網站真的沒有疊加的就一個歐盟各國"},{"start":23971.508,"end":23997.829,"text":"那為什麼還不斷地用這樣子的一個言語然後呢來傷害我們的談判團隊這是我覺得我不捨的地方那第二個部分就是說其實我們目前為止說真的放無薪假的確實有這個不能說沒有那無薪假的部分就是因為有太多的不確定性"},{"start":23999.346,"end":24024.981,"text":"他害怕 所以我一直在談的是我們擔任民意代表我們更應該是要讓產業有信心不能用錯誤的訊息或是懷疑 猜疑的訊息而讓產業更沒有信心所以我們現在放吳欣嘉我也知道我們行政院有要求我們勞動部一定要積極主動去了解原因是 勞動部主動訪視"},{"start":24026.609,"end":24043.974,"text":"對但是呢因為說真的我們在基層有聽到大家的壓力是因為我們的匯率沒有穩定到底未來會不會隨時有做調整所以他們都會擔心我多接了一張單我可能會"},{"start":24046.158,"end":24066.504,"text":"因為這樣而損失一張單就是在這個賺的價差的當中所以這個怎麼讓大家穩定信心這個很重要所以我覺得他們現在都覺得說我乾脆現在先按兵不動也是現在無薪假的原因我先按兵不動"},{"start":24067.324,"end":24085.937,"text":"我來了解整個局勢變化之後我再進一步所以這個都是他們內心的不穩定跟擔心所以這個也跟我們勞動部長說明一下這個無薪假有時候是一個擔憂因為我們的競爭力到底會不會萎縮來 部長"},{"start":24089.099,"end":24109.65,"text":"跟委員說明第一個其實因為實際上應該叫減班休息因為有時候講無薪假會讓大家以為真的可以無薪有時候有些勞工以為真的可以無薪他就不知道自己的權益在法規上面是不能夠無薪的至少要給最低工資這是第一個第二個就像剛剛委員說到其實現在大家可能會同時受到美國的關稅"},{"start":24111.024,"end":24139.177,"text":"又有匯率的影響所以我們現在在我們的強化版的僱傭安定措施裡面把如果你是受到匯率影響的也放進來可以做薪資補貼那我們薪資的這個差額補貼過去是五成我們也提高到七成所以其實我們都希望更大力的來支持減班休息勞工的經濟安全的部分那現在把原本的行業別原本是三個那現在也放寬到九個"},{"start":24140.097,"end":24168.954,"text":"那這也是聽了很多我們工會跟勞工朋友的想法所以我想我們會盡全力的來支持我們的勞工朋友最重要的是我們希望不要讓勞工朋友遇到失業或者是他要離開職場的狀況因為他只要還keep在他的這個職場上面的話未來訂單來他隨時都還可以快速的恢復就可以上位這對企業好那對勞工朋友至少他在經濟上面他不會馬上要去找工作尤其是如果遇到中高齡的勞工這對他來說都會是更多的挑戰"},{"start":24169.694,"end":24181.709,"text":"所以剛剛部長所說的我們應該更改這不是無薪假他基本上都要給基本工資對不對所以我們應該把這個觀念稍微調整所以我一定都會強調說"},{"start":24183.442,"end":24202.745,"text":"不是叫無薪假 這叫減班休息因為講多了真的很多勞工會以為好像真的可以無薪所以是減班休息隨時等待這一波的動盪完我們要隨時上工 隨時上位 對不對所以我今天問這些問題都是要讓我們的行政團隊不要被誤解"},{"start":24203.906,"end":24232.028,"text":"因為常常都會被誤解減班休息還有因為是景氣大環境關係其中還有一部分是因為關稅關係勞動部都把它分析出來的我們會針對關稅的部分特別來加以重視但是整個大環境減班休息的我們還是用一般的勞工政策來替他做一些紓困上的解決跟委員再補充每一個通報減班休息的廠商勞動部都會親自聯繫跟拜訪來了解到底發生什麼事情需要什麼協助我們可以投注什麼資源"},{"start":24232.748,"end":24257.746,"text":"每一個通報減慢休業廠商我們都會主動聯繫我們可能更積極然後跟他們做聯繫也把這樣的訊息通報每一個我們產業別他們都有工會嘛讓他們知道我們政府是有在協助在這個區塊的一個勞工的諮詢甚至協助我們已經規劃接下來要去每一個可能會受影響的工協會都希望讓他們知道我們有提供這樣的資源"},{"start":24258.146,"end":24285.469,"text":"好 那這個速度可能快一點那我再就叫我們的院長院長 其實我們把所有的產業品把它弄出來其實可能會比較直接的就是蝴蝶蘭 還有五國魚還有茶葉 鬼頭刀 毛豆 鱸魚這是農業的那其實我們再把它細分說真的 蝴蝶蘭是因為我們最主要的對手是荷蘭"},{"start":24286.89,"end":24305.796,"text":"因為荷蘭的關稅比我們低所以我覺得這個部分蝴蝶蘭可能是我們的重中之重在我們台南我們大家都聽到要死所以這個部分要拜託然後再來吳國瑜的產業他基本上因為我們主要競爭對手是中國"},{"start":24306.596,"end":24327.694,"text":"那當然中國是55%是還沒疊加的部分但是我們以這個關稅的一個基礎來講它是55%那這個茶葉的部分基本上因為我們競爭的對手跟我們都差不多所以我覺得我們還要細分整個我們的競爭對手優越是比較"},{"start":24328.694,"end":24337.902,"text":"對 一定要比較否則大家會亂掉說我們被受害的這麼嚴重但是其實產業都說我相信我們台灣撐得過因為我們有可以條件去跟人家拚競爭我們擔心的是說"},{"start":24346.485,"end":24374.588,"text":"像蝴蝶蘭荷蘭就比我們關稅低這麼多那在關稅要出去就已經競爭力少了人家一截了所以我認為說我們還要把每一個產業的細項把它分出來那還有就是說我們工具機的產業也是我們工具機的產業我們為什麼大家會哀哀叫因為工具機的產業我們主要對手是德國日本韓國他們的一個"},{"start":24376.089,"end":24400.818,"text":"關稅都比我們低所以我覺得我們要依照產業別特別再把它挑出來加重協助我覺得這才是比較重要否則你看我們也認為說我們所有的產業別中小企業有可能說手工具產業 水五金產業 重電產業還有我們的塑膠產業都可能受到衝擊可是因為競爭對手都是中國"},{"start":24401.758,"end":24411.585,"text":"都是中國 所以相對的壓力就減了我覺得我們應該要把這個訊息丟出來否則大家都不知道可能自己"},{"start":24413.319,"end":24432.404,"text":"這個產業的也未必那麼清楚都不知道我的競爭對手是誰都覺得說你看美國關稅這個樣子我是不是失去了競爭力可是其實所有的產業都說我只要我跟別人是一樣的關稅我就有把握我可以贏過別人這是我們台灣的驕傲"},{"start":24433.749,"end":24461.268,"text":"那我們要怎麼讓他有這樣的條件就是我們現在要去幫他的從農業 從中小企業這樣的角度所以我覺得這個是我們現在要做也是我要拜託院長我們的資訊要給產業更清楚讓他們有信心你讓中國拚 中國的百分之五十五萬你在怕什麼我覺得這個樣子的話他會更有信心那真的我們的對手是比較低的"},{"start":24462.949,"end":24490.263,"text":"競爭關稅是比較低的那我們就要給他更多的幫忙所以這個部分院長委員答覆我早上的報告裡面我說到工業方面工具機手工具水滸金重電塑膠農業方面的蝴蝶籃毛豆鬼頭刀以及委員剛剛所說的我們受的衝擊比較大所以我們用各種的金融支持產業支持方面來協助讓他的衝擊減少認為我們這個地方我們的競爭力可能會減少對其他的"},{"start":24518.689,"end":24529.015,"text":"我們的產業說真的 我們很驕傲他們認為只要我們政府給他們好的競爭空間他們是絕對有信心可以達成這個目的好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝院長副院長接下來我們請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":24540.11,"end":24568.315,"text":"謝謝主席鄭副院長以及卓院長各位先進我們有請卓院長你剛才喝水可以了嗎好 休息一下卓院長請備詢我們是不是請副院長一起好不好鄭副院長也請備詢謝謝代委員好 院長辛苦了不會"},{"start":24570.883,"end":24591.833,"text":"這個G2030一直來立法院這裡辛苦但是我們希望我們希望來這裡能夠講一點真話啦要對國會公開啦現在現在外界這個今天的報告啊這個院長事先雷聲大雨點小說今天要來然後林運把很多資料給我們結果"},{"start":24594.134,"end":24619.729,"text":"編幾部沒什麼資料做文做很多結論就是繼續談爭取比較好的關稅我們沒有看到你們對國會還是黑箱還是蓋牌我就請問就一件具體的事情我們大家都朝野部分朝野全民全台灣人民都期待"},{"start":24620.769,"end":24642.329,"text":"能夠20加N所謂的疊加第一個它不是地板希望它變成天花板然後這20能夠降回15這是老百姓普遍的希望我們要的不多跟日本一樣就好了日本韓國都是15%我們要的不多就這樣子台灣老百姓非常老實非常誠實"},{"start":24643.63,"end":24659.847,"text":"也非常實際這樣的一個努力現在看起來大概就有兩個方向了第一個就是對美要增加投資第二個開放國內市場我就請問曾副院長這個跟美國有沒有談到"},{"start":24661.088,"end":24686.236,"text":"請你繼續回答報告委員的確美方會期待各國市場開放那我們也會在糧食安全國民健康的原則底下來跟他討論非關稅貿易障礙的確我們台美談判到最後沒有達成協議有部分就是聯動供應鏈合作跟232調查的項目所以我就問你一個具體的事情"},{"start":24687.583,"end":24692.171,"text":"是不是有可能美國是不是要求我們全面開放零關稅 有沒有"},{"start":24693.574,"end":24722.048,"text":"美國有沒有要求美方自然有他的期待他期待零關稅對不對期待零關稅期待市場開放市場全面開放因為各國談判的情況會連動因為談判是一個階段發展的當有的國家用零關稅提出來一個條件的時候美方他也會提出你怎麼回答我的問題啊 政府院長"},{"start":24722.748,"end":24747.068,"text":"我跟委員美國有沒有提出來要求零關稅美國提出市場開放的期待市場開放我必須這樣跟委員回答我方也會來針對有關在糧食安全國民健康的原則底上來跟美方協商但是因為委員如果我跟您講得太具體"},{"start":24747.748,"end":24765.114,"text":"如果我在這邊涉及什麼樣的敏感項目跟您報告之後屆時如果影響談判的結果這是我們比較不希望看到的所以請委員諒解跟國會諒解你來這裡要講實話就是你沒有答案沒關係但是我們要了解美方有沒有提出來"},{"start":24766.935,"end":24785.869,"text":"期待市場開放的確他會期待各國市場開放那這就是看雙方怎麼談判的確最後我們還有一部分要談的就是供應鏈合作投資供應鏈合作跟232條款相關的優惠方案但是這裡面"},{"start":24786.79,"end":24809.447,"text":"也涉及對等關稅最終的稅率是一起來談的所以媒體講了你們否認你們4年2500億你們說不對啊這不對那是比較多還是比較少因為這個相關的報導未經向經貿辦查證未經向部會查證那我跟委員可以報告是說現在還在談判中相關的數字都還在這個"},{"start":24811.048,"end":24838.757,"text":"談判中並不是媒體所報導的相關的數字跟我們的談判情況有所出入我們的GDP一年8000億美金日本4.多兆美金 它是我們的5倍日本投資 承諾投資5500億拿到15%天花板價我們用了不多跟日本一樣就好了按照GDP比例我們就出5%"},{"start":24839.949,"end":24865.012,"text":"所以以我們來講 投資1100億就夠了1100億Counter offer就應該1100億就是最多at most我們1500億2500億 就給我們說完了啦好 這個副院長請請回早上也有其他委員建議那我們會一併再一次的提出這樣合理的計算方式"},{"start":24865.796,"end":24893.465,"text":"我想有關於我方有力的論述我們都會來交叉充分的運用但是也請委員我們如果委員有需要我們也可以有時間詳細再跟委員報告各國他們最終公布的條件他不同的這個性質譬如說投資的數字有不同的性質我要請教院長這個副院長比較沒有角色我要去問現在來看的話賴總統前幾天講話"},{"start":24895.757,"end":24912.164,"text":"他講四個重點其中兩個重點第一個重點就是啟動立院行政新的互動模式第二個重點啟動內閣改組我要不要請邱部長上來一下衛福部的邱部長邱部長你要不要上來一下"},{"start":24914.502,"end":24938.613,"text":"媒體說成這樣 壞聲壞音這麼大聲 你說你要求邱部長寫請辭信 邱部長拒絕有這個事情嗎來 邱部長給你先說你有沒有跟院長見面 前幾天有沒有 有有 好是不是院長要你寫辭職信 你不要"},{"start":24942.033,"end":24959.961,"text":"我跟委員報告我跟邱部長見面的時候我第一個問他說你對未來的工作有沒有什麼樣長遠的計畫他跟我講了很多他過去所做的跟未來所做的這是我們剛見面的過程開始結束的時候你叫他請辭他不要"},{"start":24962.175,"end":24989.634,"text":"報告委員我跟邱部長見面來給邱部長講話我一句話就好了我跟邱部長見面只有我們兩個人沒有任何媒體在現場邱部長你講個話有沒有要你寫辭職信有沒有報告委員沒有我們都是談工作計畫沒有叫你寫辭職信工作跟健康台灣推動的一個狀況因為從這個事情看我就覺得原來的黃雁南原來的郭志輝兩位部長"},{"start":24991.295,"end":25005.246,"text":"他們的請辭大概也都是被請辭啦換言之就是完全是由上而下 我要你走靠靠捏 讓你自己說 啊 健康因素啦生涯規劃啦 讓你靠靠捏 這樣"},{"start":25008.07,"end":25030.792,"text":"黃部長因為戒掉期間八月底所以他回歸到中研院去那郭部長更有其他他個人的因素邱部長在立法院國會典長要講實話喔確實沒有要你寫辭職信喔確實沒有那你可以請回這是內閣改組你請回"},{"start":25034.462,"end":25062.345,"text":"內閣改組的部分我就講第二個賴總統說要啟動新的立院行政互動模式你在這裡上個禮拜接受我的事情你也這樣講啊新的模式結果新的模式是什麼馬上我們看到115年的中央政府總預算我們三讀通過了軍人加薪我們三讀通過了警消條例一通不編了"},{"start":25063.444,"end":25091.638,"text":"你通不偏啦 好啦 你說因為市縣賴總統要替你講話這個啊 就是胡說八道看囉114年今年度中央政府總預算請問你有沒有在執行請問你 有沒有在執行114年今年度目前正在執行中央政府總預算請問你有沒有提市縣114年中央政府總預算對 市縣 有沒有我們提出過復議"},{"start":25092.708,"end":25112.195,"text":"你五月提復印 八月提釋憲八月憲法法庭受理答案還沒有出來換言之只要大家都知道這是一個ABC只要經過總統公告的法律案三讀通過了你要實現可以 你寫實施"},{"start":25114.009,"end":25128.373,"text":"換言之你今天115年的中央政府總預算你說軍人加薪因為失限請下條例因為失限不編預算這個叫違法亂計違法違憲兩個回答 第一個委員您是"},{"start":25133.22,"end":25155.667,"text":"台政的專家在立法院多年立法院通過一個法案要行政院增加預算是否合憲值得考慮第二個我們這次的釋憲案我們並同提出暫時處分我們希望在暫時處分釋憲確定之後如果違憲我們就不做違憲機關的行為如果合憲我們就必須要補正我們就補正"},{"start":25157.657,"end":25170.358,"text":"不是這樣子啦我剛跟你講了半天你都沒有認真聽114年的預算正在執行你也是提示線我們沒有暫時處分你也在執行啊"},{"start":25171.158,"end":25196.243,"text":"我們沒有暫時處分你也在執行啊那現在這一次我們對於民進黨預算我們都了解啊我們提了暫時處分你不要去這樣子這個大家都了解我們提了暫時處分就是你只要總統公告就生效總統公告生效對不對沒有生效的我們也不能複製不能釋憲啊不是 你可以生效的你也沒有提複製你沒有提複製啊對不對 你就直接挑起釋憲大會委員長你希望我不提複製啊"},{"start":25196.823,"end":25199.632,"text":"不能用這樣的理由不是 我們有提暫時處分這一次有提暫時處分"},{"start":25202.148,"end":25231.488,"text":"老實講我對你上禮拜的打呼我是滿意的但是今天的打呼我是不滿意的我覺得你還是擺開一副要跟立法院吵架的架勢立法院用一個法案來增加行政機關的大幅支出這樣對嗎我們要求依法編列那就會重演原來114年禁法補償你不編退回 我們會退回"},{"start":25232.568,"end":25258.265,"text":"我就強力主張要退回因為我們同國的所以委員還是認為立法院可以用一個法案或一個預算案來大幅增加行政機關的這個預算的編列大幅支出那我就告訴你這個沒有違反憲法跟預算法嗎我就告訴你民進黨的先進門最早提出來那個叫許信良他當立委的時候提出來要提出來"},{"start":25265.623,"end":25289.031,"text":"要給老人津貼一個人三千一樣啊 跟這個一模一樣啊當時行政院如果同意有徵詢過有徵詢過行政院如果同意就沒有違憲問題如果沒有徵詢過而且沒有指出資金的來源那就有違憲之餘啊那種案子太多了啦立法委員 民進黨的委員提案然後也增加預算這個太多太多了我就不要再講了齁我再請那個政府院長"},{"start":25290.772,"end":25293.095,"text":"政府院長跟楊總裁政府院長跟楊總裁請楊總裁備詢時間暫停一下"},{"start":25313.869,"end":25323.207,"text":"現在講20% plus N其實如果把匯率加進來就是30幾%請問總裁4月到現在台幣升值多少"},{"start":25327.142,"end":25349.188,"text":"我們從今年開始來算 我們是7.184月2號開始那這個我大概要再算一下 我現在不知道我告訴你最少18 我覺得7.4點4月2號為什麼 因為那時候川普講的關稅的問題從那時候開始算起 其實那時候請問你現在外匯存底多少 外匯存底"},{"start":25349.708,"end":25353.753,"text":"我們外匯存底大概是5800億5800億每一天的匯市大概15億到20億天哪"},{"start":25364.031,"end":25392.425,"text":"VS5800億老實講你要調節太容易了你要維持在哪裡就哪裡了但是因為你怕人家說你是匯率超重所以呢但是那個時候突然突然一漲一下子一塊錢兩塊錢我想委員講的也沒有錯不過我有一個原則我們必須要把握住就是說"},{"start":25393.425,"end":25405.936,"text":"你升職或是貶職的時候你的調節委員的意思就是說你都可以來調節但是我說調節要有節制調節要有節制所以是貶職調節或是升職調節都要有節制現在證明了你當初讓他大幅升職那是配合關稅談判"},{"start":25420.869,"end":25433.098,"text":"政府院長跟主委長我跟委員報告絕對沒有報告委員央行不在我們台美經貿工作小組也不在我談判小組我的談判沒有涉及匯率這個要跟委員同時的報告絕對沒有大家前面這麼多的委員在提到的你不要講話我講喔因為我事情不多了"},{"start":25449.611,"end":25467.585,"text":"最大的擔心是匯率因為匯率不是只有對美國 對全世界都是我來到歐洲也是 來到東安也也是大家都非常的清楚匯率才是重要匯率加12% 所以我們等32%所以事實上最近新台幣"},{"start":25486.906,"end":25512.377,"text":"好 謝謝賴委員 謝謝卓院長下一位我們請林黛樺委員質詢好 我們有請院長跟副院長請卓院長還有曾副院長備詢"},{"start":25523.683,"end":25541.273,"text":"議員好在針對這個談判雖然還在進行當中但是有一些事情還是要跟國做個說明跟澄清三有 三沒有 三爭取823之後賴清德總統要求行政團隊要傾聽民意及時快速的進行社會溝通"},{"start":25542.453,"end":25559.071,"text":"那本席就給院長跟副院長您一個機會針對台美關稅的談判及時澄清及時回應及時溝通好那請問正副院長在談判團隊到美國是不是有到該到的地方"},{"start":25559.791,"end":25577.38,"text":"有見到該見的官員有提出保護產業的台灣原則呢這三個有 您要不要說明一下有的 謝謝因為委員的問題因為過去幾個月談判我們跟貿易代表署經過了四輪的實體談判"},{"start":25578.441,"end":25593.202,"text":"還有數次的線上會議也跟美國商務部有許多次的視訊跟會晤每一次談判我都有跟貿易代表署Gareer代表以及美國商務部部長London部長實質的會晤進行整體性的溝通"},{"start":25593.682,"end":25614.591,"text":"那也跟貿易代表署各個議題相關的專家團隊進行技術性的磋商所以都有完整該談的該堅持的該建的都有那當然最後沒有達成協議我今天有速度的說明就是最後因為對等跟232我們要一併談這也是後續我們三個目標再降對等爭取不疊加以及232的優惠"},{"start":25615.931,"end":25634.772,"text":"這個在今天早上的時候三爭取的部分其實這個在卓議員長的回應其實都有打打都有說明好那再來針對這個不實的報導這個是不是鄭重的在向國人澄清一下談判團隊是沒有不當投資沒有喪權入國"},{"start":25636.354,"end":25653.619,"text":"沒有出賣台積電您要不要說明一下目前在232的部分有關於供應鏈合作跟相關的投資都還在討論當中所以我們也有說明說相關報導沒有跟我們經貿辦以及相關部會來查證"},{"start":25655.66,"end":25676.53,"text":"那我想在談判過程所有的條件是不是讓談判團隊有空間否則我們也很擔心任何的數字任何的這個都可能會影響談判的結果那您可不可以講個原則那所以我們的原則就是產業利益 國民健康 糧食安全但攸關供應鏈的合作必須立即互利互補"},{"start":25677.871,"end":25695.005,"text":"雙贏的這樣的一個戰略目標底下來談台美的供應鏈合作郭院長你可不可以針對這三個原則再說明一下什麼在投資美國的原則是什麼開放農產品的原則是什麼捍衛護國神山的原則又是什麼可不可以說明一下"},{"start":25695.265,"end":25718.473,"text":"我想美國他自然會要求各國希望開放市場不過我們一定在產業利益國民健康跟糧食安全的原則之上來跟美國進行協商那有關於供應鏈的合作的部分我想台灣的產業的確也都在做國際佈局有些企業已經擴大對美投資但我們希望未來的雙方的供應鏈合作能夠互利互補共贏"},{"start":25719.393,"end":25740.554,"text":"能夠一起壯大產業那有關於這個台積電其實每個公司的投資決策政府基本上是尊重公司的決策那他們是跟客戶結合跟市場技術人才的結合我也必須跟委員來回溯一下其實台積電過去在美國在日本在德國等等各國的投資裡面我們看到"},{"start":25740.894,"end":25764.071,"text":"他們在國際佈局的同時台灣的半導體產業也在發展那麼2023年突破4.5兆2024年突破5.3兆我們也預期說今年還會再持續成長半導體產業所以我想院長也宣示非常清楚的原則跟流台灣研發創新的核心的關鍵技術在台灣但是政府我們也需要產業有利的國際佈局好 本席擔心的是來"},{"start":25769.495,"end":25794.484,"text":"對美貿易談判不能犧牲傳統產業要請中央拿出對策與決心剛才您的說明還是聚焦在半導體跟資通訊產業二三二條環比對等關稅影響更大民間常聽到的除了最惠國待遇的個位數字的關稅再加上20%的暫時性關稅也就是20加N受衝擊的有汽車零組件石化工具及紡織等產業"},{"start":25795.504,"end":25818.079,"text":"那對貿易這個影響較大的是232條款所造成的關稅美國總統當然基於他國家的安全這樣的232條款是可對進口產業採取限制措施的例如鋼鐵鋁金屬加工被課徵50%這已經是進行中的正在調查中的半導體晶片人員資通訊產業未來可能會被"},{"start":25822.922,"end":25846.835,"text":"課300%的關稅好那這樣可以顯然的行政院剛才吳副院長您的說明其實將半導體資通訊產業當作談判重點這個是已經顯而易見但本席擔憂的是其他產業是否會變成對美談判可犧牲的籌碼呢我想不會這個跟委員報告我們現在是就這個供應鏈合作232併談"},{"start":25848.556,"end":25871.931,"text":"有共識之後對等關稅就會再降因為我們看到像日韓歐盟拿到比較低的對等關稅在他們跟美國達成對等關稅的協議裡面都同時有爭取到232的優惠也就是雙方在投資跟供應鏈的合作所以我想美方整體看待整個兩國的貿易跟供應鏈的合作所以你的意思就是說"},{"start":25873.172,"end":25901.918,"text":"所以您的意思是說絕對不會有產業被犧牲當然不會我們要爭取對等再降就是因為對等關稅影響我們很多傳統產業所以這也是我們最重要的目標希望20%的對等關稅再降我就不用通過條例啦我就不需要通過條例啦5900的條例在經濟部下就有1100多億那包括農業的部分其實也聽你的講法是絕對不會被犧牲的那根本就不需要通過條例我幹嘛還提升到5900億呢"},{"start":25903.178,"end":25928.296,"text":"除了那兩間5900億的這個條例當中這個因應關稅條例當中所以我才讓你說明這個貿易一定有取有舍那一定有受衝擊受衝擊我就認真的面對嘛你才讓我在目前讓我們尤其在高雄的部分我的傳統產業 構建產業也好相關的這個工具相關的金屬構建相關的產業"},{"start":25929.477,"end":25943.751,"text":"當然會害怕 農業會不會害怕 會啊所以我這邊才說好那你要讓他們安心還是照你講的這些完全都不會有受傷害的產業這個要讓認清我會有哪些衝擊這才是重點啊"},{"start":25944.412,"end":25963.159,"text":"好那今天的產值重要還是就業人口重要你這邊半導體跟資通信的產業這個大概有121萬人口他光是121萬人口就有6兆的產值而傳產我這邊找的傳產是鋼鐵產業上中下游金屬製造石化及相關產業包括農業這樣子受衝擊的產業大概250萬人好這個表格貿易談判需要捨"},{"start":25971.022,"end":25983.574,"text":"得交換產值較高的科技產業從業人口只有121萬人產值較低的製造業與農業大概250萬人好目前我們談判內容是不是會為了121萬人的這個高科技產業"},{"start":25987.938,"end":26013.884,"text":"而犧牲了250萬人的這樣的船廠政府有沒有任何的措施讓今天受創級的250萬人受到輔導成為明天的贏家呢好那在財團布局海外的時候船廠是困守孤島嗎既然製造業外移是個趨勢行政院有何這個策略來確保本土研發與製造繼續"},{"start":26017.865,"end":26035.235,"text":"這個與製造這本土的研發跟製造能夠繼續的保持優勢呢好這邊要提到的我船長會面到三大壓力海外佈局是不可能像科技產業這麼容易的第一個我們的船長是缺乏國際化的人才第二個他的資金不夠充裕"},{"start":26035.635,"end":26058.112,"text":"第三他受天災匯率關稅三重打擊已經無能力來轉型以我北高雄船長來講我們就流傳一句話沒單等死接單找死現在有人防止面臨法拍有人不知道如何對於之前的員工來交代政府是不能坐等資本來申請補助"},{"start":26060.174,"end":26083.727,"text":"而是要主動下鄉伸出援手就搶救養活最多功能的產業好那另外我也會這包括農業的部分啦美國是農業大國那這個貿易談判當然要達到可能會開放畜牧糧食的那當然這個會有助於降低國內的物價但是農業不只有產糧食自主率的戰略考量"},{"start":26084.247,"end":26095.997,"text":"還要承載台灣文化記憶與庶民飲食的習慣所以這邊也提醒政府應該要重視就算開放市場也要透過冷鏈物流建設輔導產品的認證來協助農友提升競爭力好在這邊"},{"start":26101.786,"end":26118.344,"text":"我具體要求兩項第一個受到關稅與匯率雙重影響的南部產業區中央派出政務委員或等同的同等的首長於高雄設置跨部會的單一窗口會同地方政府組成下鄉的服務團主動服務"},{"start":26120.626,"end":26135.948,"text":"主動服務主動服務我講三次傳統產業跟這個農業的主動服務對接中央補助資源提供融資利息的利率的補貼這一點是重點頭要提供融資利率的補貼"},{"start":26137.029,"end":26160.589,"text":"那對於這個設備購置的獎勵海外參展的輔導等那第二個要求是對於未來可能受到開放美國進口衝擊的農業對於我高雄的岐山美濃或周遭的地區以工建計畫興建冷鏈物流倉儲中心協助我高雄的東九區北屏東台南三區的農友協調平衡產銷並請農業部跟經濟部合作"},{"start":26164.254,"end":26172.653,"text":"規劃特色農產出國產產以分散市場的策略來抵消美國關稅針對這兩項的具體要求院長您怎麼看"},{"start":26173.769,"end":26200.661,"text":"我覺得我們如果設餐廳窗口是一個很好的建議但是如果需要的話不限於設在哪裡我期待我們現在這次中央政府總共預算的追加預算今年追加預算如果能夠得到大院支持我們試圖把中部南部的各地的我們的服務中心把它強化讓各部會去也增加一些專門針對目前關稅受衝擊業務所需要的部會人員去增加這個服務"},{"start":26201.201,"end":26225.255,"text":"院長我為什麼特別談到跨部會單一窗口現在有啦經濟部有所謂的下鄉服務團是有但是你就是沒有速發部在裡面那包括相關的這個部會他們就是會推來推去只有經濟部有那其他部會沒有加入這是第一個那第二個我們確實也辦了很多說明會那說明會聽完完後"},{"start":26226.455,"end":26242.5,"text":"業者還是無所謂對我中南部業者的資源除了資訊不能到位之外通常第一個我們就是不知道有這個價位第二我不會寫第三個寫了也不會過這差不多是通常中南部在針對我中央政府計畫當中的"},{"start":26244.304,"end":26262.881,"text":"窘境啦所以我才說主動服務不是只辦了這個說明會啊你應該到家到府到場的主動告訴人家主動的為他量身締作每一個專屬的他的一個計畫書進而幫他盤點那可能會要花上半年一年的時間就一家"},{"start":26263.602,"end":26287.137,"text":"之後才這個計畫書才是符合他這個的他的需求的來再跟我們申請因為你們也結合了64個法人講得很好聽啊但是這樣的一個單一窗口我講的單一窗口除了法人的整合包括主動出席到場到戶到家的主動輔導量身地座不是辦了說明會之後沒事了"},{"start":26288.158,"end":26310.464,"text":"產業的服務跟支持經濟部為主我們請市長來說明跟委員報告8月7號我們有將一些計畫用以晚計集的方式預算先挪用來做產業的輔導的部分目前來講其實我們海外訂單的補助已經有187家提出申請"},{"start":26311.284,"end":26329.793,"text":"市長你最好針對我的問題你的說明會你有出席的沒出席的我也參加了好幾場我現在點出的就是問題所以為什麼現在的我們中小企業在南部當中並沒有感受到政府的我一直強調我希望我們的政府是有溫度跟靠山的"},{"start":26330.473,"end":26347.228,"text":"但是是沒有的看得到吃不到了跟委員報告我們都我們都可以來做專案的協助我們在這個高雄地區的話我們有一些法人他就會直接到我們那個扣件扣件的這個我把問題點給你了那如果呢你沒有在"},{"start":26347.968,"end":26364.362,"text":"到廠到戶到家的主動的而只是純粹的辦說明會而且你的說明會是有限的喔你針對工業區包括一些一些協會一些工協會辦完之後就沒有了現在的狀況就是這樣"},{"start":26365.183,"end":26382.112,"text":"所以這些還是不會寫還是不會寫第一個知不知道 有沒有全面明顯知道也沒有我們來檢討 我要求他們那個單據啊要用選擇勾選題 不要用寫一大堆的那單數不要超過兩三張能夠讓大家能夠盡快填好"},{"start":26382.832,"end":26409.401,"text":"那院長你也做了指示還要主動到任何的百工百業包括服務業 容器業一樣那再來針對於公建計畫興建冷鏈物流倉儲中心協助我高雄東九區包括岐山美容等地區那以及在他們的出國的參展上給予支持來 部長您怎麼說呢跟委員報告就是我們在第一期的冷鏈計畫其實已經"},{"start":26410.721,"end":26437.424,"text":"設計了全台灣的區域物流然後我們第二期的冷鏈計畫也是從今年開始所以在特別在高雄的地方我們也在評估一些適合做區域物流中心的部分去做一個這樣的一個興建我們希望說興建一個台灣的整合冷鏈物流網這第一個第二個部分就是說有關於好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":26440.737,"end":26448.383,"text":"謝謝卓院長跟副院長報告院會我們休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":27106.776,"end":27123.242,"text":"發言會現在繼續開會 請徐委員僑心咨詢謝謝主席 我們先請卓院長來 請卓院長備詢徐委員好"},{"start":27136.071,"end":27157.507,"text":"首先我要詢問一下在823 32比0之後台美關稅在朝野的對話能不能夠提升您覺得我們應大院要求今天來做報告那這個時間也是在8月23之前但爛線的總統發表談話是昨天我的意思是說從今天開始會不會比前天更好"},{"start":27159.158,"end":27178.321,"text":"我說今天我們來這裡報告是一個月以前就排定的時間我要問的是在賴清的總統的宣誓之後你認為朝野協商我們這樣子的對話需不需要我們縣我們行政院跟在野黨的協商跟溝通的管道跟方式需不需要有所改變"},{"start":27179.122,"end":27199.011,"text":"我們調整財政體質 調整兩院互動調整這個施政順序 調整內閣人士那賴清德總統說調整的順序第一個就是經濟優先那我想當然也包含台美關稅民生若是青年優先 那請問一下我們著內閣之前的優先訊是什麼第一優先是什麼"},{"start":27201.061,"end":27218.857,"text":"去年520來的時候總統要求的第一個就是經濟發展不對喔 不對喔賴清德總統說要調整順序要調整的意思代表什麼代表本來不是嘛所以你現在告訴我說第一個順序叫做經濟那既然第一個順序叫做經濟那現在要調整什麼嘛"},{"start":27219.537,"end":27230.169,"text":"就讓我們經濟體質更好要調整得更好所以只不過是本來不夠好現在要更好那不算什麼調整嘛那第二個順序是什麼第二個順序是什麼來 第二個順序是什麼卓內閣的第二個優先順序你施政順序的第二個是什麼"},{"start":27237.762,"end":27255.823,"text":"你說總統說的你說的 我在問你啊我說總統要求我們第一個就是經濟發展對 我說的是在8.23之前不要浪費我的時間好 那總之賴清德總統強調要改變行政跟立法的互動但是我們可以看到今天質詢我覺得沒有任何的改變"},{"start":27256.624,"end":27276.05,"text":"跟823以前完全沒有不一樣啊你採納了哪一個在野黨的立委的意見呢賴清的俗話你根本沒有在聽嘛比方說賴清的總統有沒有講四個優先有青年優先 有沒有有沒有嘛 你不要一直浪費我的時間嘛四個優先 你該不會沒有去看那場記者會吧"},{"start":27277.435,"end":27305.952,"text":"我們未來在他講的第四個優先就是青年優先沒有什麼未不未來結果行政院隔天拿財化法去綁架小學生啊不讓他們喝水吹冷氣用點拿小學生開刀對嗎財化法各個縣市都已經有去投入他們的整個規劃也行政院相關的一定都知道講過很多次了例如台北市2500多億要投入捷運要蓋社會住宅改善交通興建醫療場所"},{"start":27307.273,"end":27312.422,"text":"你可以跟地方政府溝通啊不是溝通是823當天賴清德總統講的嗎結果你有沒有跟各縣市溝通就直接開刀要綁架小孩的權益啊"},{"start":27318.752,"end":27334.677,"text":"有嗎這件事情你們有跟地方溝通完成協商完畢才公布的嗎委員你們在定財化法新的時候有沒有跟行政院溝通過想到說行政院要被拿去3700多億財政收支劃分法講了20多年了以前賴清德總統也同意所以我們才修的"},{"start":27339.918,"end":27354.995,"text":"所以我要講的事情是你覺得作為一個行政院中央的機關你都編列了財化法的預算了然後你今天要綁架小朋友的這些吹冷氣的費用你不需要跟地方公眾溝通完畢之後再告訴大眾不需要"},{"start":27355.535,"end":27369.787,"text":"用這種字眼用這種字眼來抹煞跟扭曲行政院的做法我們是裁劃嘛媽媽群組都已經炸坑這叫什麼凹人一時爽啊 全越火葬場啊總統的話"},{"start":27372.109,"end":27392.724,"text":"中央交4千億給地方大家分配之後難道不需要有一個事權的分配嗎你可以跟地方政府討論完畢之後共同公佈啊我跟他問的事情是你們討論完共同公佈了沒有嗎跟委員報告我們都有跟地方政府溝通8月的報告還要跟地方政府報告他們"},{"start":27394.945,"end":27419.432,"text":"告訴而已台北市比今年114年增加452億我都知道我問你是電力的部分你跟政府溝通之後成功了沒有嗎我沒有跟地方政府溝通柴化法的分配啊成功了沒有電費的部分所以你的意思是台北市告訴你說他同意新北市告訴你說他同意他們現在這些市長都在騙人"},{"start":27421.132,"end":27421.752,"text":"沒有什麼騙人"},{"start":27451.292,"end":27472.472,"text":"共同報告很好啊 結果沒有啊賴清德總統說的是要朝野溝通朝野多化行政跟立法溝通當然也要跟地方溝通你溝通沒有成功今天就片面的來宣布這是大家覺得很荒謬的地方我們過去兩三個禮拜很多重要法案一步一步的推我覺得這是一個新的模式"},{"start":27472.932,"end":27493.765,"text":"你新的模式裡面你對於我們剛剛講的你就是劣勢嘛你不要拿其他的議題來讀我這個議題嘛我剛剛問的就是沒有溝通出正向的結果就貿然的公佈導致於地方縣市政府跟媽媽群都非常的不滿嘛好 我們今天的重要主題是關於台美的關稅我要詢問的是20%的關稅是暫時性的"},{"start":27499.048,"end":27526.175,"text":"那現在已經25天快要一個月了請問這個暫時性什麼時候要結束要多久從今天早上開始諮詢到現在這個已經好幾次提出的問題因為你們沒有解決跟答案誰每個人都要問我不問是我不盡責啊台美延展再說一次謝謝委員台美持續談判中我們希望越快能夠談出一個結果我們會全力努力"},{"start":27528.175,"end":27543.422,"text":"剛剛聽了質詢發現大多數都是視訊會議很少是實體磋商只有四次而已嗎那每一輪都有數天的時間但是總體數大多都是線上磋商為主嗎那我要問的事情是什麼"},{"start":27545.783,"end":27558.33,"text":"然後中間四輪而且每次去都是數天數天那請問線上的會議還有幾次實體磋商之間就會透過視訊會議實體磋商之間還透過視訊會議所以實體磋商實體磋商不一定是我要問你們"},{"start":27563.953,"end":27591.227,"text":"我會問你 我會讓你講所以實體磋商這四個字不代表都是面對面中間還有視訊的部分是嗎實體磋商就是我們人到華府面對面雙方的談判團隊坐下來數天的時間就各項議題逐一的磋商那對方除了我們組團的代表也有他們相關的議題的專家那我方有我楊政委也有相關的部會就不同的議題大家就來進行磋商"},{"start":27592.047,"end":27605.739,"text":"沒有視訊的部分因為實體的話就不是視訊實體就是我們人道華府實體跟實體之間就會透過視訊會議保持相關的持續的操作跟聯繫剛才您剛剛講了三次疊加當實體在面對面談判的時候我們整個台灣在台北"},{"start":27611.824,"end":27638.448,"text":"也配合美國時間總統領隊配合美國時間一直到深夜運動一直沒有離開因為剛才因為講到一個就是沒有講清楚就是實體跟視訊的部分好那剛才講清楚我現在了解了我可以接受我可以接受啊那但是我要問的是您剛剛說三次最近的視訊會議都有向美方表達說不要用疊加的方式那請問對方的意見是正向還是負向的"},{"start":27639.028,"end":27667.824,"text":"還是沒有評論我們持續的正向朝向最後總結會議在持續的磋商當中但是要最終因為通常是達成協議的時候會去談最終美方降稅的方案那美方降稅方案裡面我們裡面就會觸及疊加不疊加但是我要跟韋芳原則上各國都是沒有疊加但歐盟有例外那我們看到日本也在爭取各國都是疊加歐盟例外不疊加那我們看到日本也在爭取"},{"start":27668.584,"end":27689.351,"text":"但是不叠加的可能性很高我們也要爭取不叠加就是最後不叠加比照你所說的其他國家而非歐盟的機會非常高是嗎歐盟是例外但是無論例外無論例外跟原則我方的目標就是全力努力爭取再這樣迴抗不叠加"},{"start":27692.992,"end":27717.625,"text":"我們就是全力努力爭取我坦白說如果是正向的今天這麼多人問早就講了剛才賴氏堡委員的詢問你們只承認市場要開放沒有說要零關稅好 沒關係我們針對市場開放來做一個討論你們今天的報告寫的有關於糧食安全希望能夠從美國採購黃豆 玉米 小麥 石油天然氣 跟農工產品"},{"start":27718.605,"end":27740.605,"text":"但是媒體額外報導的部分有關於牛肉豬肉的動植物檢驗措施還有我特別針對家禽跟蛋製品兩個詢問好了家禽跟蛋製品的部分要讓他取消美國產品的限制跟許可這個是假消息假新聞還是真的有這件事"},{"start":27742.026,"end":27756.175,"text":"這個報導剛剛今天有速度回答我只問這個我只問我只問家禽跟沒有像經貿辦跟我們查證那其實每一方每一年他都會公佈一個關稅貿易障礙的年度報告我想委員這都是公開資訊"},{"start":27757.476,"end":27785.84,"text":"這裡面提到很多項都是美國他會對每一國公布他認為的關稅貿易障礙那在這些範圍裡面美方當然會提出他的期待來協商但是我們的一個原則就是國民健康糧食安全所以我認為說在家禽跟淡製品這兩種我就問這兩種就好了在家禽類就是如雞等等還有在這個蛋的限制跟許可會在這個關稅談判當中去取消它嗎"},{"start":27787.932,"end":27814.869,"text":"不瞭解委員的問題是什麼我跟委員報告就是您剛才講的那個家禽跟就是雞啊或是蛋的部分那相對的就是美國他有提出不同包括農林漁區的品項都希望說某個程度的開放這是他們的期待那我們也有我們要守護的部分所以針對兩三天的部分我理解了那我要問代表啊那就是針對這個部分他剛已經解釋給你聽了嘛那請問在這個部分我們開放的部分我們要談及到"},{"start":27818.072,"end":27833.814,"text":"那我們有談及到這個部分然後我們的態度是什麼那不要開放許可嘛那你們每一個今天從早上到現在每一個都是持續溝通那這樣的話就沒有回答到我們真正的問題所有的東西"},{"start":27834.915,"end":27863.806,"text":"都還沒有定案那今天大家來質詢那意義在哪裡我再問一個問題如果開放零關稅的話農業項目包包含麵粉有討論到這個問題麵粉的零關稅開放美國開放麵粉零關稅有沒有討論到我跟委員報告黃小玉還有小玉的小就是小麥的部分就是跟麵粉的部分現在就是零關稅那這一類的產品進來國內的話反而是降低國內的生產成本是對於國內的消費是有幫助的黃小玉不是有問我單純問麵粉的部分"},{"start":27865.232,"end":27886.387,"text":"對 因為整個的一個小麥的部分它有非常多的碎栽耗類其中有一個碎栽耗類就是麵粉的部分所以你認為這個反而對我國的麵粉會有幫助有一些關稅低的時候對我們的生產成本降低是有幫助的有些大宗原物料本國也在進行採購不過我想就這個相關項目這個沒有問題 剛剛你們已經回答了"},{"start":27888.608,"end":27909.458,"text":"再來我想要問關於台美關稅的另外一個重點就是橫貧台美的貿易順差其中有一項有機會記錄的當然是武器的採購也就是軍購在國防預算裡面我們的武器採購有兩種方式一種是FMS的軍購就是軍售政府對政府的"},{"start":27909.798,"end":27919.724,"text":"另外一種是DCS的商售是向軍火商購買的那請問我們目前來講平均兩種採購的比率是百分之多少對百分之多少這個部分我們還要再"},{"start":27924.537,"end":27940.942,"text":"因為雙方的計算跟品項的設定到現在我們沒有辦法在這個地方講出一個設定出來你不要回答不出來就說不知道就是7比3FMS是70 DCS是30因為外交部國防部都曾經回答過類似的問題"},{"start":27948.925,"end":27955.933,"text":"所以你不要這樣你不要自己回答不出來就說這個還要怎麼調整這一點都不細項我們的軍售是跟政府對政府或者是向軍售商軍火商購買這哪裡細項啦好那"},{"start":27964.964,"end":27980.096,"text":"我問一下現在政府對政府的採購能不能夠進入台美的貿易額之中能不能夠去衡量在有關軍購的部分我們尊重國防部的規劃是由國防部在進行規劃的啊外交部說不行啊不能進在這個台美貿易稅的當中啊"},{"start":27983.098,"end":28007.168,"text":"那我的意思是說在基本的貿易的順利差基本的貿易順利差的確但是我們在談判當中我方也向美方表達我國賴清德總統在2月的時候就已經有正式公開的承諾所以這部分就是我方自己的一個承諾我知道嘛70%是走政府對政府嘛那這樣子我算出來大概是6656億沒有辦法算進去去橫平這個差額嘛"},{"start":28011.75,"end":28039.603,"text":"你不會不知道這件事吧我們不能這樣計算這個不是這樣的計算標準這是這樣去算的這是外交部的政務次長陳明齊他說的他說透過美國軍售FMS的管道不算在台美貿易額當中雙售DCS才算我要讓我再問一個問題我們有沒有辦法向美國爭取FMS的軍售也可以列入貿易擬差我們有很多雙方的立場跟條件都互相在討論"},{"start":28054.19,"end":28071.763,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝徐委員 謝謝卓院長下一位請何欣淳委員質詢好 謝謝副院長那我們請卓院長"},{"start":28076.673,"end":28076.856,"text":"請左院長備詢"},{"start":28087.265,"end":28108.832,"text":"董事長辛苦了其實剛剛看到在野黨委員的質詢真的是不給你講話的機會也不給同來背詢的各位首長講話的機會事實上質詢就是要好好的講清楚就算是在野監督執政也是要理性好好的溝通好好的講清楚"},{"start":28109.412,"end":28131.034,"text":"真理是越辯越明講清楚才能夠讓我們所有的台灣人民知道我們政府正在努力做什麼就如同我們今天的專案報告對美的關稅的談判我們現在是暫時性的關稅那也正在協商當中這一個立場 這一個態度我想為了"},{"start":28131.854,"end":28146.966,"text":"國家的民生經濟為了國人的就業為了很多人民生的食品安全等等我想我們盡力很多談判兩個字就是有來有往我們有要進攻也有要守護的我們希望"},{"start":28147.626,"end":28161.429,"text":"可以從跟美國好好的談判的這個過程裡面能夠截取國家最大的利益院長這個才是我們真的今天這個專案報告安排需要好好談清楚之所在對不對院長"},{"start":28162.609,"end":28177.138,"text":"對 我們一直秉持以國家利益 產業利益為最大優先進行談判那很多的細節我們都說過國際談判的慣例在還沒有到細節完全底定的時候是不能夠全部向外界來說明的但是我們有承諾依法"},{"start":28178.272,"end":28205.855,"text":"談判抵定之後一定送到國會這個必需要的程序也是我們的憲政體制所以我們一定遵守我們要大大方方而且清楚直白的向國人說清楚免除國人的疑慮這就是我們行政院的責任對不對院長早上在報告裡面我也強調過這一點我們一定在談判達到協議的時候要向國人向社會向"},{"start":28207.101,"end":28231.994,"text":"國會做說明同時依照條約第第結法相關裡面的條文必須送國會來審議我想這個是基本而且是必要的程序我也希望大家說總統希望兩院互動模式調整我也不認為這應該只是單方面的調整像這種質詢的內容應該體諒到整個談判團團隊在目前他有一些必要的難處所以應該讓團不團隊更有大的一個空間"},{"start":28232.654,"end":28239.962,"text":"但是只要原則性大家都能夠體會到支持談判團隊去把談判做好才是談判團隊最大的本錢"},{"start":28241.511,"end":28265.169,"text":"我同意院長但是同樣站在監督的角色我也期待也認為行政院在對美談判的這個過程當中可以講的可以公開的應該要講清楚我覺得第一個這叫安民心第二個這個是讓我們國人知道我們的談判團隊是如何的辛苦因為我剛剛光是聽到"},{"start":28266.61,"end":28286.002,"text":"我們到底實體去談判了幾次跟線上視訊的會議談判了幾次在野黨委員搞不清楚如果連在野黨的委員都搞不清楚那表示一般國人也搞不清楚甚至產業界也搞不清楚我的意思是說我們該讓人民知道的就該讓"},{"start":28287.563,"end":28301.997,"text":"他們知道而且要清楚明白的講清楚我們實體的去談判四次就是四次有誰去每一次到底談判的團隊到底有誰又是談了相關可以公開的議題第二個"},{"start":28302.557,"end":28318.619,"text":"我們視訊會議有三次三次我們又談了哪些又該是怎麼樣的讓階段性的讓國人清楚讓產業安心我覺得這個在我們作為監督的角色希望行政院跟談判團隊可不可以"},{"start":28319.98,"end":28344.013,"text":"我們一定說明更清楚視訊會議是八月以來三次之前加起來十幾次所以剛剛在野黨委員所得知的跟現在講的你看次數又不一樣副院長有意思強調八月一號回來以後是三次報告委員四月以來四次實體每一次是數天然後中間有十次的視訊會議那我剛說明的三次是八月一號"},{"start":28346.074,"end":28369.789,"text":"這個我們7月31號公布台灣階段性對等稅率之後我們又進行了三次的視訊會議那我們想每一次的實體會議都是我跟楊政委還有跨部會的代表一起去那每次會他們都有發布新聞不過盧委員所說的我們會善盡說明的責任我想我們會持續的向國會跟社會來說明談判的進度我覺得這是一定要的"},{"start":28370.509,"end":28393.218,"text":"不然會造成很多不必要的誤解譬如說我們台中是傳統製造業在這一次受美國關稅衝擊最嚴重的地方之前我也要請鄭麗君副院長到台中來開過座談會那時候還沒有啟動談判之前那產業界就非常的擔心那時候也謝謝鄭麗君副院長代表院長來到現場來"},{"start":28396.239,"end":28417.63,"text":"說明了一些我們可能會碰到的問題還有產業界提出的問題我們又該如何的有配套因應的措施我們台中現在不僅僅是美國關稅的問題加上匯率的問題雪上加霜 雙重壓力造成我必須要讓院長跟各位知道這個無薪假"},{"start":28418.45,"end":28444.895,"text":"越來越多製造業減班休息創新年來的新高這個都是勞動部的一個數字今天的自由時報也是大篇幅的報導台中的工具機模具塑膠製品電子材料等傳統製造業大受影響事實上我必須說不是只有這些產業只要涉及所有出口的產業都非常的"},{"start":28445.655,"end":28471.443,"text":"民不聊生我要用這四個字為什麼要用這四個字因為在我台中的很多的產業還感受不到政府的輔助的措施到底能不能讓他們挺過這一次的難關院長這個就是說我是一個監督的角色我也必須要務實的把這些問題帶給行政院行政院就應該要好好的對外說清楚我們有哪些的"},{"start":28472.123,"end":28499.993,"text":"輔助方案我們又能夠怎麼簡化有效率能夠讓這些產業中小企業及其勞工知道院長您上個禮拜有到台中來開過座談會座談會上各工協會的理事長幹部也都有提出一些問題雖然在現場的時間很短沒有辦法一一的回答但是我請教一下院長您上次來到台中跟各工協會一起在討論座談那他們提出的問題"},{"start":28501.033,"end":28517.979,"text":"有解方嗎中規矩向第一個我想大部分都提到了金融支持希望能夠給他們更多實質有效的金融支持這個回來我們已經請相關財政單位來做處理希望銀行能夠做一些有效的開放銀行會主委在這裡再來就是"},{"start":28518.699,"end":28545.397,"text":"申請的手續太過的繁雜我們也希望說表格要簡化第二個我一直要求經濟部從身份別來告訴你是什麼業者你是什麼身份你可以得到什麼樣的保障用這個方向來出發比他一個一個去查他能夠所有的產業支持的方案這樣可能比較有效如果你是中小企業你是手工具你是水母機你用這個身份別來告訴業者你這樣就可以清楚"},{"start":28545.737,"end":28572.293,"text":"而且現在還有一點必須要用產業鏈的一個概念來做輔導跟做補助我不能只有ABC我產業鏈裡面有可能它的協力廠商都是相關受到衝擊的那按照產業別之外還要用產業鏈的一個協力的一個團隊的一個產業來共同的來受到政府的補助或者是政府的支持我覺得這是很重要的一件事包括剛剛講的資金"},{"start":28574.714,"end":28591.687,"text":"彈性調度以及金融支持的部分主委你要不要補充跟委員報告我們這次設計的這個產業支持方案其實我們除了有個案申請外我們還有這個研發的整個多家提案的一個補助就是剛剛委員提到的就是整個產業鏈"},{"start":28593.008,"end":28608.549,"text":"整個供應鏈主委你剛剛講到研發兩個字我認為你要再回去調整現在受美國關稅跟不景氣的影響都已經衝擊很大了我們的企業端資方要在所謂的研發在投入資金對他們來講是難善加難"},{"start":28610.191,"end":28633.483,"text":"所以你的資金的彈性運用是要如何因應這一次美國關稅以及匯率的影響造成雙重的壓力所以經濟不景氣 沒有訂單所以他們維持他們員工的生計有困難所以他們企業的資金的調度需要政府支持我就來用這樣子的角度去好好調整你的金融的協助對策確實我們在鍾曉微的貸款計畫裡面"},{"start":28638.886,"end":28661.226,"text":"是有這樣的一個設計就是說我們除了新保金提高保證成數以外我們還有做利息補貼也可以讓中小企業可以減輕他的一個負擔院長我會問這一件事就在於我們過去對於這個中小微企業的一個金融支持我們綁了很多條件那如果我們這一次像今天的專欄報告我們這一次是因應美國的關稅的一個衝擊"},{"start":28663.127,"end":28681.878,"text":"這麼的嚴重的影響到國內的產業那也間接的直接的就影響到勞工員工那我覺得這樣子的資金的一個金融支持就應該要什麼應該要減變而且要大力的支持副院長來檢討答覆院長已經有指示重寬重減重塑"},{"start":28682.478,"end":28685.882,"text":"中小微的貸款最高額度3500萬然後在250萬以內利息減碼1.5%然後100萬以內保證成數是10成另外還有外銷貸款的部分每一家最高6000萬的保證額度保證成數是"},{"start":28701.481,"end":28721.828,"text":"這個九成五那也減免這個保證的手續費最長兩年那麼另外有兩項補助轉型的補助當然雖然有研發可是也支持轉型包含設備購置的補助每一家五百萬那剛剛委員提到供應鏈如果一起來的話申請的話可以最高聯盟四千萬那海外分散訂單"},{"start":28723.568,"end":28750.827,"text":"分散市場海外訂單每一家五百萬如果一起來的話聯盟申請最高兩千萬我想這些兩項補助兩項貸款這個是現在已經都在受理中的那院長也有特別指示這個重減重塑以外針對這個加總關稅以後稅率比較高以及面對競爭對手他的關稅比較劣勢的特定的項目我們再加碼給予特別個案的支持"},{"start":28751.274,"end":28777.758,"text":"我還有兩項 我希望舊貸不收新貸速審舊的貸款不會把它收回來在這個時候新的貸款加速審查院長這兩句話是重點但是我要請主委好好的要求銀行我們在實務面上看到中小微企業碰到的銀行來的壓力不太像是院長所說的這兩個原則主委來說明一下我想過去金融業過去面對到很多次類似的"},{"start":28778.779,"end":28796.952,"text":"這樣一個困境的時候都有採取類似的動作我想這次也不例外陳同剛才院長講的就是我們只要是你這個展期比我們到今年12月31號你只要繼續今年而且繳息正常了這部分我們會展延這個六個月絕對沒問題假設我已經有看到這個問題的話我們會來了解來督促我們銀行確實辦理"},{"start":28800.766,"end":28827.552,"text":"我跟你講實際的狀況跟你了解的可能有落差我是希望我們找時間會後再來好好討論我現在就要告訴你為什麼資金的調度跟金融的支持很重要我去爬梳了一下數據院長你看到你會嚇一跳我們今年6月份這是6月份的數據工廠歇業的數量比去年的同期多了174%"},{"start":28833.109,"end":28847.274,"text":"174%這個是從你們的資料調來的我必須講這個數字你可以再去double check但是以我在中部地區我台中我剛剛講產業鏈的一個關係我的選區是最多的協力的加工廠"},{"start":28857.777,"end":28881.973,"text":"你可以去我們各大這個工業區或是周邊零星工業區或是周邊區域去看一看這個歇業或者是這個門關起來沒有在運作的工廠廠房真的比以前多了很多那這個就是我剛剛講的很多工廠因為沒有訂單做事修山還好有的甚至叫做山修士"},{"start":28889.239,"end":28890.581,"text":"為什麼無薪假的人數會"},{"start":28892.683,"end":28918.185,"text":"創新高原因就在這裡那當然我知道我們勞動部部長你會跟我說我們有啟動一些的補助方案但是有很多中小微型特別是微型的加工廠他去申請的這個所謂勞工的支持補助方案的比例是不高的部長你可以回去用你的這個補助的一個數據裡面好好的去盤點一下為什麼"},{"start":28919.346,"end":28924.559,"text":"特別是微型的加工廠他們可以申請到政府的補助的比例是相對的低"},{"start":28925.492,"end":28954.852,"text":"跟委員說明其實現在我們從數據上面看到來申請的這個的減班休息的薪資補貼的大部分其實都是中小微的廠商中小微裡面我希望你能夠在進一步的去盤點中小微裡面的各自的申請比例是因為這樣子才能夠作為政策的依據我們是不是應該更大力的支持微型加工業是那沒有錯比方說的確現在"},{"start":28955.672,"end":28977.304,"text":"我覺得比較具挑戰比較辛苦的就是比如說金屬製品加工跟工具機跟機械業其實蠻多確實都是在中部的地方那這裡面它的確它有過去跟中國在搶單的問題但也有現在關稅跟匯率同時遇到的問題所以我們現在在我們的薪資補貼的範疇裡面其實我們把它放寬了現在放蠻寬的"},{"start":28978.396,"end":28992.407,"text":"是把匯率的影響也放進來不只是關稅的影響我們就覺得不用再特別一定要去區別你是匯率還是關稅所以這個就請你大力宣傳有很多中小微企業是不知道的我最後的時間我是建議院長長期的基金來扶持還有這個勞工因為中小微型企業養了我們絕大部分台灣的勞工"},{"start":29007.984,"end":29030.883,"text":"好 謝謝何委員 謝謝卓院長還有江副院長下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝院會主席 江副院長各位同仁 新委員會的朋友 楊瓊英發言首先邀請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29044.231,"end":29059.195,"text":"我今天聽你一直強調說有跟在野溝通那麼我要請問一下在整個關稅的談判跟議題上面行政院有跟在野黨的黨團來溝通嗎溝通了什麼事請說說明"},{"start":29060.689,"end":29087.135,"text":"我們有一次曾經邀請黨團的幹部去到行政院就這個內容告訴大家當時我們能夠向黨團說明的部分但是我們也希望黨團在聽取說明之後有些很重相關的內容不宜對外宣布所以我們有這個過程但是內容還是在國際談判慣例當中我們還要謹守分際今天算是一個正式公開的說明"},{"start":29087.575,"end":29097.568,"text":"但也有所保留這很抱歉 容許我們一定要做有所保留等到協議達成的時候我們一定向國人跟國會來做說明也一定送請國會來審議"},{"start":29099.468,"end":29122.203,"text":"好 到目前為止本席跟人民我們似乎感受不到行政院有想溝通跟介入訊息在可以介入的範圍內因為大家幾乎都是瞎子摸象到現在你產業的座談會有開一場一場的座談媒體報導也一直在跟隨到底我們的方向"},{"start":29123.064,"end":29143.557,"text":"就是看不到行政院對於我們整體性的一個關稅它能夠維持多久我們的農產品會不會全面的開放還是如此如何美豬美牛會不會鬆綁對我們產業整個的衝擊有多大這一些的方向我們看不到"},{"start":29144.057,"end":29166.736,"text":"因为我们看到日韩在谈判的时候他们可以揭露的时候他们就给国人报告而且反光我们呢到底我们的叠加关税到底是怎么回事呢总统在八月份的记者会都还没有公开说明所以这次我论点是认为内部的沟通他是不及格的"},{"start":29167.316,"end":29181.923,"text":"那所以本席要再請教在上午你有說有跟執政黨的黨團溝通那請問在四月份我們關稅風暴到現在四月份就等於是四個月後才到立法院來報告"},{"start":29183.044,"end":29202.664,"text":"我要請問 你透過你們執政黨 民進黨黨團到底溝通了什麼因為我們看到在8月10號的時候在立法院協商的時候整個執政黨的幹部都還在反對行政院到國會來報告"},{"start":29204.145,"end":29233.215,"text":"他們說要等到整體的結束之後才能夠來國會來報告而且還嗆說如果有透露那談判不順的時候那談判不好的時候要嗆民 嗆在野黨所以你們要負責所以本席要請教本席要請教也就是在整個談判性的一個過程當中我們看到"},{"start":29235.236,"end":29255.783,"text":"如果說談判不順是要在野黨來負責嗎那行政部門不用負責嗎我請首先我要謝謝委員會參加過好幾場的產業座談會你也看得出來我們座談會當中那種互動的模式跟我們聽取業者請針對本席的提問因為你說透過你們執政黨"},{"start":29259.866,"end":29274.005,"text":"黨團來做溝通8月4號還在嗆還說破壞進行中的談判為談判製造更多不可控的因素早上那段話是說有委員說我們這一年當中"},{"start":29275.467,"end":29304.41,"text":"在野党团互动几次我说有两次以上是到行政院来平常是透过党团来跟朝野党团所以我告诉你因为你四个月后才来报告那就是说因为你有请执政党的党团来做沟通那我也坦白告诉你8月4号还呛在野党甚至说谈判不顺你在野党必须要负责那我请问卓院长谈判不管如何怎样不顺也好 顺也好"},{"start":29305.231,"end":29309.273,"text":"那就成了你的執政黨黨團這麼樣的嗆你認為是在野黨要負責嗎還是你執政黨的"},{"start":29314.045,"end":29338.53,"text":"政府不用負責 請做說明既然叫執政黨負起政治責任更多的責任都是應該的好 就你一句更多我們繼續討論我非常的樂見我非常的樂見您今天到立法院來做報告我們在台中的時候你也告訴本席一句話只要國會來邀請你都非常樂意立即來報告所以也就是"},{"start":29339.19,"end":29357.78,"text":"原本的執政黨黨團一再的抹黑在野黨這是不對的這是不對的在此時我們必須要一起來努力我跟執政黨黨團之間並沒有做這樣的要求說延緩來報告我們都期待儘快依照大約你沒有這樣請他們延緩他們這樣子8月4號這個錄影錄音這樣子去嗆"},{"start":29364.184,"end":29387.999,"text":"你應該要回去好好的跟他們溝通你必須要跟他們好好的溝通所以你要必須跟你的執政黨的黨團去溝通那麼過去駐美代表沈旅雄先生他講了一句非常有名的這個名言他說什麼都問美國人這就不是"},{"start":29389.252,"end":29411.403,"text":"外交官所以相對本校告訴你一句話什麼要求你都接受這也不叫談判代表所以我認為我們國會的監督跟人民的聲音可以作為你在談判的一個後盾你認為政府會好好的重視跟善用國會的監督跟人民的這個聲音嗎會 我們會聽取業界當然我們也會重視國會給我們任何的建議"},{"start":29417.079,"end":29446.399,"text":"我想這個都會在談判當中我們可以轉化成一種談判內容甚至一個對我們的鞭策跟助力好 謝謝卓議員長你跟本席的論點是一樣也就是國會的監督跟人民的聲音是作為談判非常重要的後盾此時此刻我們必須要好好的去團結應對我們這個關稅所以接下來本席要請教對美的加大投資美方的期待到底是什麼"},{"start":29447.8,"end":29461.714,"text":"所以本席要請問剛剛我們說了照單全收他就不是談判我要謝謝鄭副院長帶著團隊到美國去但鄭副院長告訴我們美國的財長說他可能暫時性的會到10月"},{"start":29462.728,"end":29480.636,"text":"同時他們每一次的見面都會擴大這個期待那到底請教目前談判到現在他們還有沒有擴大期待請做說明先回應剛剛委員所提我在第一輪實體磋商的時候就跟美方說我國的法律有國會保留條款"},{"start":29481.596,"end":29495.847,"text":"我把相關的條約締結法的法條都給了對方所以很清楚的這個談判的結果的協議主要是要送交大院來審議我想我們有非常清楚表達剛剛回應委員這第一個問題那第二是這個我們談判"},{"start":29498.69,"end":29514.447,"text":"這個當然希望是要降關稅那降關稅我方也的確希望平衡貿易逆差來說服美方降關稅但是我們也有所原則我們在這個國民健康糧食安全產業利益的原則之上來跟美方來進行磋商"},{"start":29515.368,"end":29544.043,"text":"那至於委員所垂詢的有關後續的談判過程當中涉及供應鏈的部分232條款跟投資的部分目前還在談判中所以目前還在談判中針對本席的問題提問目前因為您說每一次見面都會有擴大的期待那目前在談判的當中我們還是進行我剛剛所謂的每一次見面都會擴大期待指的是說隨著因為過去幾個月談判美國是跟各國在談判的"},{"start":29544.963,"end":29565.876,"text":"請針對本席的評論那是不是到目前為止還有擴大擴大的期待有沒有目前我們正在磋商的就是供應鏈的合作跟爭取232的優惠因為我們也想要了解美方232關稅的走向你的回答讓我們清楚知道還是有"},{"start":29566.836,"end":29582.848,"text":"還是有所以本市要請教市場開放跟對美的開放投資那這個是國人非常非常的關心因為就陳柏霖剛才所說的投資是不能無端的一個浪費尤其在我們食安方面我們更要謹慎絕對不能退讓這個是我們非常重要而且針對於我們條約締結法"},{"start":29588.832,"end":29615.119,"text":"第三條第六條第七條第八條的一個規定那麼必須要送到國會跟國會相關要送到國會剛剛你也應許會送到國會就誠如總統所說的跟這個國會有相關的也一定會到國會來做審議國會的這個審議跟全民的審議這是我們有第一次就跟美方來表明我國有國會保留相關的法律規範"},{"start":29616.379,"end":29630.324,"text":"所以本席要告訴你我們都知道我有一句話如果有不對再請副院長能夠來修正就是雙方技術性的磋商我們就關稅非關稅貿易障礙貿易的便捷化還有數位經濟還有產業的供應鏈的韌性還有經濟安全這幾個大項"},{"start":29636.601,"end":29651.926,"text":"都是固定的但內容因為美國隨著跟其他各國的談判有一些動態的變化所以他一直在調整這些動態的變化我想我這樣的陳述第一線應該也是謝謝你補充的陳述那本是要提醒政府因為我們看到日本 韓國"},{"start":29654.636,"end":29675.731,"text":"歐盟他們怎麼做呢他們要三年購買7500億的能源他們要投資美國6000億的美元日本5500億投資韓國3500億而且要加能源1000億4500億但是我們看到我們跟他的人口跟GDP日本他們的GDP4.7兆"},{"start":29677.572,"end":29693.399,"text":"他們的人口1.2億大於我們的5倍韓國他們1.7兆他們人口5100億大於我們的兩倍如果我方也要要求被要求也是數千億你認為對台灣是公平的嗎"},{"start":29694.019,"end":29706.093,"text":"任何有利於我方談判的論述我們都會加以運用那我早上有回答其實我們期待的是一個雙方互利互補雙贏的供應鏈合作我們也一再的強調我方供應鏈的價值"},{"start":29708.936,"end":29717.846,"text":"非常重要因為我們的產業跟我們的民生非常重要所以本下要請教台積電的1650億有包括在你預計要投資美國的數目裡頭嗎報告委員 台積電宣布當時1000億的投資其實在我們談判之前"},{"start":29728.037,"end":29751.375,"text":"這到底這些算不算他目前1650億是應許了甚至還要加碼所以台積電的投資會不會算在你談判的投資額裡頭會不會目前我們民間公司的投資規劃是民間公司他們的決策那當然這個我們現在談判還在進行當中我們談判還在進行當中我想我現在這邊任何可能大家臆測的數字"},{"start":29752.856,"end":29767.142,"text":"我們不希望來增加成為談判桌上的變數所以請容許委員讓我們有一定的空間我們的產業跟人民的民生非常的重要所以最後我們說現在政府談判到總結會議我們還要這個總結會議這個時間到底會撐多久"},{"start":29772.805,"end":29788.203,"text":"那麼同時在總結會議的時候我們的產業我們的疊加關稅到底可以撐多久還是誠如財長所說的暫時性的還要等到10月到底我們一個月會損害多少兩個月會損害多少我們這產業等不及"},{"start":29789.384,"end":29801.499,"text":"我要給左軌報告 換我給你報告因為很緊張我們的工具機 手工具機這一次談判最嚴重的就是我們中部地區包括自行車業所有的產業首張起衝企業衝擊了連帶我們整個"},{"start":29806.625,"end":29829.668,"text":"勞工的公司全部影響到這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題到底我們對這些產業我們要怎麼樣協助所以你們有沒有評估你現在報告的都是目前的形態但是我們的廠家已經很多到期的廠房不敢租到期的倉庫也不敢租我也不敢接單我不知道未來是怎麼樣"},{"start":29830.609,"end":29855.351,"text":"所以這樣的樣態讓人民非常的辛苦有三個塊第一個談判趕快定案下來跟美國的談判定案下來第一個塊我們送交大院的任性條例的修正草案能夠盡快審議把它定下來第三個塊修正之後行政院用最快的速度編特別預算通過之後就能夠廣泛的對"},{"start":29857.044,"end":29881.649,"text":"產業來做支持所以一定要快快快你這麼回答我們針對關稅的衝擊產業勞工都雙雙的重擊我們看到台灣關稅高於日韓台灣的產業競爭力跟毛利都雙數物價指數高 毛利少所以等於它的競爭力就少了在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教"},{"start":29882.449,"end":29897.796,"text":"很多的像我們這個工具機他說我不敢去參展了所以本期在經濟委員會也一再強調我們必須要協助我們的產業趕快去參展今年九月的漢諾威的工具機展我想經濟部這邊會可以有全力的支持"},{"start":29898.636,"end":29915.883,"text":"一定要大力的支持本期在經濟委員會跟卓魁也一致的吶喊是 剛才我還報告我們9月份漢諾威展已經跟工具機產業工會已經在討論要怎麼樣去成立一個台灣館所以我想這個部分我們是帶著產業一起到這個德國那邊去做"},{"start":29916.503,"end":29935.191,"text":"因為要拿到訂單他們非常的勇敢所以政府我第一時間就吶喊一定要好好協助我們的產業到全世界各國去參展這非常非常的重要所以一定要落實到卓葵會落實到嗎都在我們的這個支持方案裡面聯合的產業的聯合參展"},{"start":29936.482,"end":29964.491,"text":"幫他開拓多元的市場以及用台灣SELECT 台灣的品牌來推動台灣的優質產品所以本期再一句話針對我們的產業民生一定要顧好好 我們一起來合作 謝謝好 謝謝王委員謝謝卓院長下一位陳培宇委員之質詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報下一位請劉許體委員質詢"},{"start":29975.425,"end":29992.355,"text":"謝謝主席 卓院長有請請卓院長備詢你會不會變好院長午安 辛苦了不會"},{"start":29993.717,"end":30006.646,"text":"今年四月這本席跟你總質詢的時候我們一度認為搞不好是我們面對面的最後一次總質詢不會因為我們面對大罷免的壓力對不對你也面對改組的壓力但到了最後民意選擇讓我們活下來總統也選擇繼續賦予您革魁的權利"},{"start":30011.151,"end":30031.249,"text":"既然如此 我們就順著上一次總質詢的話頭繼續往下我們還是要靜下心來解決國家現在面臨最大的經濟衝擊這我想院長應該不會反對謝謝委員的體諒 我們一起努力好 我們收到了這段時間陸陸續續經濟部也好 行政院這邊也好提出了若干的所謂的產業衝擊影響評估"},{"start":30033.251,"end":30053.571,"text":"但我想內容上是有一些不足之處來跟院長做一下分享我想先請教院長這個從我們上次4月多那時候開始關稅變成一個重大議題之後你啟動了所謂的下鄉傾聽之旅要了解產業界的困境跟狀況請問這個產業之旅您下鄉了幾次去了哪些地方跑了多少縣市"},{"start":30054.512,"end":30064.746,"text":"次數非常多 建的產業更多我們有一次的產業我記得現場就超過十個以上的工協會跟產業的代表那總統跟我"},{"start":30065.273,"end":30089.58,"text":"有的是他單獨有的是我單獨有的是我們一起我們當時算超過20場那經濟部自己做的應該比這個更多來經濟部補充一下跟文報告我們大概有數十場大概有些是在我們經濟部裡面我們邀請產業工會來做談有些是我們到工會裡面去邀跟產業來一起來做談全國各縣市都去過了吧 院長"},{"start":30091.485,"end":30112.393,"text":"沒有到各縣市有些是請到縣裡面或是到官邸裡面去談那我要問關鍵的問題你下了這麼多箱跑了這麼多縣市開了這麼多次的會議請問產業界提出來的疑慮只有關稅嗎當然是涵蓋在關稅周圍的一些問題"},{"start":30113.779,"end":30132.474,"text":"不同的產業有不同的狀況我聽下來大多數幾乎是一半對我們金融支持的強化是普遍性的要求金融支持的強化就希望紓困 貸款等等對 貸款能夠更簡化 額度能夠更高我們從他提出來的問題來講就好了真的只有關稅的問題嗎"},{"start":30133.891,"end":30137.599,"text":"有沒有人跟你提台幣升值造成的衝擊有沒有產業提到這個外移供應鏈斷鏈的問題這些問題有沒有在這些會議裡面討論應該會有提到勞工不足的問題"},{"start":30145.072,"end":30174.612,"text":"勞工不足是本來就有 產業侮缺是從好幾朝以前到現在一直都存在的問題我要問的是你這一連串下鄉你都是在問台美這一波的貿易談判造成的衝擊除了關稅以外他們有沒有提其他的面向應該都有提到嘛我現在就擔心了為什麼呢因為我看你今天這一本今天你來國會專案報告我們都很高興總算大家要討論國政但是你今天這一本裡面我還是沒有看到除了關稅以外其他衝擊的部分"},{"start":30176.113,"end":30191.826,"text":"對不對你這一本幾乎都還是在寫關稅衝擊啊因為名稱就是關稅談判的進程方針原則我當然了解啦這就是本席要提醒你的地方就是說你政府在下鄉包含在溝通的時候你可能都做了很多的自己把自己框建住了嘛"},{"start":30192.066,"end":30213.595,"text":"我講自己把自己空間住比如說你看投影片上面寫的幾個產業比如說我就以4月13這一場來講你出席了毛豆產業座談會因為我一句話經濟部所自己辦的座談會他們有紀錄總統辦的座談會經濟部也有紀錄我知道我去的也有紀錄如果這個紀錄可以整理成冊委員都可以拿來參加我知道 我就舉例嘛你現在講說毛豆產業座談會為什麼"},{"start":30215.768,"end":30223.389,"text":"大家現在討論台美貿易談判之後的後續對不對我們可能社會大眾更關心的或者是各產業都焦慮的是市場的全面開放"},{"start":30224.729,"end":30244.804,"text":"那這受害的只有毛豆產業嗎不是 那是其中的一位當天其中的一位這個產業 這個業者還說他很感謝說政府還能夠在這麼比較小的產業毛豆產業還能聽他們的聲音你會特別去標註毛豆產業就是因為它是出口嘛它是受到關稅直接衝擊所以你這樣做當然是對的但我要提醒你的範圍不夠大"},{"start":30245.885,"end":30272.54,"text":"第二你好像談了一圈之後現在要進到國會來報告來討論的時候你的內容都還是圍繞著關稅這跟我們上次總質詢講的不一樣上次總質詢的時候本期就期待不只是關稅包含匯率的台幣的升值產業的外移要有全面性的衝擊影響評估是不是委員我們是沒有注意到還是我們誤會了今天的主題今天主題就是台美關稅談判的進程方針原則"},{"start":30273.957,"end":30300.615,"text":"你如果在這裡只是這樣子空間的話本席是覺得比較可惜啦對不起 我們可以把這個座談的紀錄會審之後給委員做參考應該要更詳細啦 這本席因為不只是今天這一本啦其實陸陸續續我們都有跟經濟部索要資料也就是說這段時間大家關心的東西但回來的其實都被框在關稅裡面更有甚者 比如在這裡面第十頁都還講說32%一來變成20加N比起四月初的衝擊還減緩五成"},{"start":30302.677,"end":30320.415,"text":"這個產業界看到這樣子的評論會很心寒因為衝擊絕對不會只有關稅我們更擔心的從頭到尾就是台幣升值產業外移開放市場你看各家媒體幾乎放在經濟或者是投板的是不是都談關稅也談 市場也談"},{"start":30324.299,"end":30341.577,"text":"匯率 對不對您剛剛講的那一段我早上特別放在第一個發言的時候我說關於進程的方面我先講到現在的進度再講到產業的衝擊跟支持再講到後面的各種這個談判的方針跟原則我是這樣順序下來的所以這個是現在的進度"},{"start":30343.578,"end":30369.573,"text":"請問台幣升值的問題產業外移的可能性以及另外開放產業的可能性是否納入了全面衝擊影響評估我們打算提供多少資源來解決困難還是說你有不同的時間表請你在這個議事堂跟大家說明一下我想這才是大家都關心的事情嘛這個談判過程沒有涉及關稅稅匯率的談判匯率議題沒有在談判當中我們在四月份的各種"},{"start":30370.353,"end":30395.729,"text":"低推估中推估高推估也沒有實際把匯率的變化算進去但現在我們知道業界因為匯率的這個變化有受到我們也沒有想像的這個衝擊所以我們在產業支持上面我們也予以增加那照剛剛央行總裁所說的現在的匯率比較趨於緩但是我們認為還是要彌補把過去那一段時間快速升值之後造成的問題能夠盡量把它淡下來"},{"start":30396.189,"end":30415.397,"text":"即便是波動他都對產業造成的衝擊他有不確定性不確定性就暫緩出貨等等對於某一些產業來講他就是立刻性的掉單所以我想匯率問題還是很嚴重的再來我要問開放市場的部分請問我們是要等到全部談判結束開放條件通通公開之後我們才來再一輪的座談嗎請問這樣子來得及嗎 院長"},{"start":30417.901,"end":30438.953,"text":"那個時候我們會針對問題的核心就是確定之後我們會針對特定產業衝擊受到大的產業我們優先會再跟他做一些了解不過請委員擔心這個敏感性的品項跟產業還有一些剛剛我們一直提到的國人健康跟糧食安全的我們會嚴守國家最大的利益來談"},{"start":30439.873,"end":30454.97,"text":"很好 這一句話本席覺得非常重聽我想這也是社會大眾都關心這也是本席這一場質詢後半段要深入探討的題目但我在這邊先提醒就是說這個衝擊影響評估以你政府目前提供的報告其實是完全不足以彌平社會的焦慮"},{"start":30455.59,"end":30484.529,"text":"特別是我們現在整個談判的過程還有太多的資訊沒有揭露連節奏跟時間表也都關在黑箱子裡面那當然產業界就焦慮嘛所以你能夠提供的資料越多越透明你剛剛講中低高那也僅限於關稅對不對開放市場它是不是也有中低高的推估這些相關的資料包含你跟各個產業座談的全部資料是不是應該做一個更詳細的彙整有一個更完整的評估報告其實我們都有在準備但是你也知道這種動態的變化一直在產生"},{"start":30485.81,"end":30512.908,"text":"4月2號到4月9號8月又到7月31號各種從32從10到20這樣一直變化我們也是隨之在轉變當中那現在我們比較穩定知道說暫時性既有關稅加20%這個暫時性關稅是可以有一段時間那我們希望這個時間能夠越縮越短盡快把它達成一個最終的協議這樣最好那我們就可以針對這個確定的案子跟產業的受傷受損我們全面來展開"},{"start":30513.809,"end":30538.2,"text":"好 我接下來要問一下有關於談判的一些細節所以請經濟部 應該是經管會對不對 請回我們有請鄭麗君副院長委員號這個 卓院長 鄭副院長這一段時間大家都對於政府完全拒絕透露任何談判的細節感到非常非常的焦慮你們現在還要堅持"},{"start":30540.04,"end":30560.662,"text":"所有事情都要保密嗎跟委員報告我們也並沒有說完全沒有透露每一次的實體磋商回來我們也都有說明談判的範疇跟相關的議題的確就每一項的實質的內容我們沒有辦法完全的揭露是因為談判還在繼續進行中抵定之前依照國際談判的慣例"},{"start":30562.621,"end":30580.163,"text":"我們暫時還不會對外面說明那現在看到各國在說明相關的談判條件是因為他們達成協議了雙方透過聯合聲明這一點我跟副院長看法不太一樣我舉兩個例子一個是日本的談判日本的談判當然就已經不再純粹只有關稅"},{"start":30581.104,"end":30603.599,"text":"因為大家都知道關稅只是工具嘛川普的工具他要用關稅去換別的東西所以這些背後的條件可能衝擊更大這卓院長上次我們都已經討論過了對不對那以日本來講他們其實開宗明義就講啊衝擊最大的兩個部門一個叫稻米 一個叫汽車嘛 對不對那我前一陣子日本的訪團還有來我們還有稍微針對這個事交換了一下意見他們對於稻米很有可能受到衝擊其實他們國內很早就知道啦"},{"start":30604.079,"end":30618.487,"text":"甚至對於從他們的談判代表來講他幾乎就是開牌啊因為那個就是我的核心利益我是寸土不讓的那後來他們談判也很有智慧嘛因為他善用了國內的壓力最後也談就雖然在稻米部門他還是增加了美國的進口對不對你也聽我把話講完"},{"start":30620.248,"end":30638.644,"text":"你先聽我把話講完他在談的過程中因為就是讓國內的社會他們的在野黨執政黨都知道稻米是重要的部門所以他用了這樣的底氣雖然到最後美國的進口量還是增加了但是他是用調整進口配額的方式也減緩了對國內產業的衝擊這是日本的玩法韓國是牛肉"},{"start":30639.324,"end":30656.156,"text":"那個也是攤拍完啊 對不對他們的貿易代表呂漢九就跟您的位置是一樣的他是拿著民眾示威的照片去跟美國人講這次我們受不了啊會動搖政權啊會危害長遠的穩定性啊所以他們在肉類方面美國的要求就沒有這麼多了嘛"},{"start":30656.856,"end":30681.221,"text":"這個東西都是他們都知道他們的社會也知道衝擊最大的部門是哪裡而且隨時保持政府跟民間溝通互相借力量去增加政府的談判籌碼我看日本跟韓國的歷史我就很擔心你們現在什麼都講沒事沒事然後什麼事都拒絕透露都保密協定難道不會給你自己還有談判團隊造成更大的壓力我們都是希望追求一個最好的一個談判的結果"},{"start":30681.809,"end":30699.86,"text":"所以有關剛剛今天一直重申的糧食安全特定的敏感項目等等等等我想委員給我們空間如果我們過度揭露那是不是最終會影響可能談判的結果所以我們在這邊也請委員能夠體諒我們是為了維繫一個最好的談判的結果"},{"start":30700.316,"end":30726.683,"text":"這一段時間一篇媒體報導讓產業界也好社會又再次燃起焦慮當然你們已經算是通盤否認這裡面的都不是真的因為這一篇獨家報導裡面講了其實就談到了大家真的很關心所謂的條件面包含說要投資2500億包含農水產品 汽車附屬產品甚至藥品還有所謂的檢疫流程等等幾乎是全面開放的一個狀態院長 副院長這個報導是真的嗎"},{"start":30729.41,"end":30756.448,"text":"今天因為也回答許多次這個報導是沒有跟經貿辦以及相關部會來直接確認的確很多項目因為美方他會把相關的關稅非關稅貿易障礙項目都在他都要綁在一起談的我問幾個社會上比較焦慮的幾個項目我只問你啦這些項目裡面你能不能守住你當初政府跟人民宣誓的四大原則包含國家利益的維護 產業利益的守護國民健康跟糧食安全的不妥協"},{"start":30757.028,"end":30774.68,"text":"對不對 這是你們當初設下的四大標準報告委員 這是總統給談判團隊四個最高的原則這就是政府的宣示嘛 對不對好 我現在就問啦比如說解決長期以來有關牛肉跟豬肉所有動植物檢疫措施問題請問 這樣跟我們的守護國民健康有沒有衝突"},{"start":30775.526,"end":30793.32,"text":"我們在這個題目上會不會讓步美方他每一年都會公佈相關NTE我想這些項目都在他的非關稅貿易障礙的報告上面但是我們就是以這個原則來進行談判所以這部分我們是不會讓步的對嗎我們是以這個原則來進行談判所以我想最終結果"},{"start":30794.521,"end":30815.269,"text":"達成協議之後我們會對社會來說明但是在這個過程當中我們當然是要希望在這個原則爭取我們最大利益的空間嘛所以還請委員給我們一些空間因為我當然會給你空間你只要能夠堅持四大原則其他的都是空間不是嗎但我現在問的是我要再問一個問題我跟你講簡易是一個例子嘛"},{"start":30815.649,"end":30826.988,"text":"另外我要再問如果他真的要求農產品的全面開放還有汽車及附屬品的全部開放化學品 化妝品 藥品的全部開放請問這跟產業利益是否有違我們如何守護"},{"start":30828.869,"end":30853.779,"text":"報告委員剛剛你有一句話我必須再修正你說我們一直告訴國人都很好都很好我們沒有這樣講過所以我們當初是用高推估4月2號之後我們用高推估就表示說如果出現這個狀況政府要用什麼力道來支撐產業所以我們沒有說談判會沒有事但是我們希望政府的支撐讓產業能夠健全起來今天時間比較有限所以不好意思我沒有辦法讓你回答太久我就問這一篇報導的這些項目"},{"start":30855.76,"end":30877.852,"text":"哪一些跟這四大項目有違啊你是那些類別裡面項目都非常多像他剛舉的有一些類別裡面也有本來零關稅的部分也有非零關稅的部分所以它是一個範疇那在範疇裡面我們當然就是要進行整體的討論這整篇報導沒有跟你核實但是這些項目跟你四大原則有抵觸的時候你會不會堅持我就這樣問這個問題就好"},{"start":30878.892,"end":30889.501,"text":"這要看我們整個談判我們當然要追求降稅嘛我們要一定平衡貿易逆差但是我們也要堅守一些原則這個就是談判的一個目標我們就是要全力達到這樣的一個目標"},{"start":30901.806,"end":30923.865,"text":"包委員會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢謝謝卓院長、政府院長及相關部會首長列席答詢做以下之決定一、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆二、已提出之書面質詢尚未刊登公報者一律補刊"},{"start":30925.334,"end":30939.711,"text":"報告委員會8月26日星期二 上午9時繼續開會進行行政院院長等列席報告114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案編制經過並被質詢現在休息"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}