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大家午安"},{"start":1860.103,"end":1878.336,"text":"非常榮幸能夠到我們立法院來跟大家分享我個人對國際人權公約的一些了解當然講上課或者演講其實太過嚴肅了所以我想大家可以用比較輕鬆的一個方式我們彼此來做交流"},{"start":1879.417,"end":1893.716,"text":"首先還是要感謝我們立法院的邀請讓我有這個機會再來這個地方大家聽我這樣講會覺得很奇怪我沒有當過立法委員我回想起來在我第一次"},{"start":1894.597,"end":1920.571,"text":"要來立法院的時間是1988年1988年可能在座比較年輕的同仁可能還沒有出生我看到很多在座資深的長官同仁可能1988年也可能剛進來我們立法院服務沒有多久那時候是什麼樣的機緣會到立法院因為當時因為在高中社團擔任社長所以大家知道在那個時間台灣正好在民主化的過程"},{"start":1921.551,"end":1935.843,"text":"所以很多高中社團的同學都躍躍欲試想要到立法院來旁聽所以我就辦了一個公文希望能夠到立法院來旁聽結果那一次很巧剛好是在審查國安無法"},{"start":1937.199,"end":1958.21,"text":"結果我們到立法院門口就看到很多警察因為當天爆發議事衝突好像會也開不成了所以我們雖然人到了立法院前面結果也只能就地解散同學們也很開心賺到了一天工假這是我第一次跟立法院的緣分到了2002年"},{"start":1959.881,"end":1984.005,"text":"那時候我已經開始在國內教書當時在一些大學當講師那也一樣對於許多高中生或大學生立法院它不只是一個神聖的殿堂每天電視上看到的感覺會有很多精彩的畫面所以那時候我也帶學生來立法院旁聽在2002年比較近的一次應該是在2013年也就是太陽花學運發生的前一年"},{"start":1984.969,"end":2007.515,"text":"那當時我已經回到台北大學任教所以就帶著大一的同學到我們立法院來參觀當時也有到議場去旁聽那這中間當然還有些機緣當然有些委員的公讀生算是兼職的一個工作吧但不是正式的工作所以偶爾也會在立法院有些這個走動"},{"start":2008.775,"end":2033.605,"text":"但好像還沒有一次這麼正式的一個機會來跟大家做這樣一個不管是上課也好或者演講也好首先我還是自我介紹一下我目前在國立台北大學法律學院任教同時擔任我們法律學院的能源環境與人類社會研究中心的主任大家可以看到這個議題最近上禮拜我們才做關於核酸研議或者說重啓的一個公投"},{"start":2034.225,"end":2037.469,"text":"所以能源跟環境的議題還有未來人類社會面臨高科技像是AI這一類的一個挑戰其實是一個很重要的課題所以在我到台北大學任教幾年之後就成立了這個中心"},{"start":2048.837,"end":2069.894,"text":"那大家看到我名字一定会觉得有点熟悉因为仁川这名字不就是韩国的机场吗那大家可能会觉得说那应该站在台前是一个来自韩国的歐巴怎么会是一个有点中年发福的老师呢那我要先澄清了我跟韩国是一点关系都没有取这个名字纯粹只是巧合"},{"start":2071.476,"end":2097.274,"text":"但这个巧合有时候我也在想也许是上天的一个安排最近很多韩国的啦啦队到台湾来所以仁川其实也是希望发挥这个角色的功能来当啦啦队在各种场合帮大家加油所以我希望平常大家在公务很繁忙之余的能够用个比较轻松的态度来参与今天的两个小时的一个课程中间我会稍微休息十分钟"},{"start":2098.958,"end":2122.617,"text":"我自己的個人學經歷我就不再多做介紹了比較僥倖的是在當時能夠出國念書也要感謝納稅人讓我有這個機會能夠取得我們教育部一般公費留學考試的資格當時是能源環境法能源管理法這個學門所以談到能源或環境的議題其實我有很多的想法只不過這不是今天的主題我不能談太多"},{"start":2125.444,"end":2139.202,"text":"那講到人權我想大家各自有不同的觀點或者是經驗我們也沒有辦法在兩個小時短短的時間把許多重要的國際人權公約做非常深入的介紹"},{"start":2140.724,"end":2156.753,"text":"也不可能因為這兩個小時的上課上完之後好像大家就覺得我們臺灣對推動人權保障有很快速的一個進步這是不太可能的所以我也希望說藉由這兩個小時的時間跟大家做一些分享讓大家有一些新的觀點"},{"start":2158.775,"end":2179.513,"text":"在看待有關人權問題的時候我們有些不同的想法我們彼此來進行一些交流所以我一開始就延續這個簡報在我過去很多關於不管是在國家文官學院或是在其他公務員訓練課程我所用的簡報來跟大家做進行的素材通常我會用這張照片來跟大家做一個開頭"},{"start":2180.954,"end":2195.508,"text":"这张照片大家手上都有讲义可以看得很清楚这个是一个非常稀松平常的画面也是我从新闻媒体上截取下来的如果不看这个文字大家可能也不晓得说这张照片要传递出什么样的讯息"},{"start":2197.289,"end":2216.503,"text":"就跟我們日常生活所看到的街頭的影像沒有什麼太大的差異所以剛剛我有先跟我們處裡面的一些同仁交換過一些意見就是我們可以用比較輕鬆的方式彼此有些互動所以我也想先看看大家從這張照片看到什麼"},{"start":2218.225,"end":2242.657,"text":"麥克風以往在這個場合常常是各個委員爭相搶奪的重要物資所以希望大家不要害怕你可以就個人的觀點談一談你從這張照片看到了什麼樣的訊息跟大家做一些分享所以不要太緊張這是立法院的重要物資所以我不曉得有沒有同仁自願的"},{"start":2245.45,"end":2258.186,"text":"講自願通常不太容易我們是不是可以請同仁跟我們分享一下從這張照片你覺得看到什麼樣的重要訊息是這一張照片拍攝者他所要傳遞的訊息"},{"start":2273.46,"end":2298.719,"text":"你们还有分组我们可以把麦克风交给你觉得哪个同仁可以这不用结论很多事情也没有结论我们立法院经常开会就是没有结论有结论还可以再推翻不是吗所以不用担心这也不是结论就是提出自己的想法而已我们请比较年轻的同仁所以说你看到这张照片你看到什么样的讯息"},{"start":2301.123,"end":2328.534,"text":"大家一邊想我還是在強調我剛才那個重點我們在日常生活當中經常看到各種人事物如果我們還是用很平常的心態在看待這些人事物其實它沒有什麼好去說的可是如果我們可以有機會藉由今天這樣的交流我們可以從這一張很日常化的照片得到哪些訊息可能是跟人權有關的"},{"start":2331.26,"end":2335.143,"text":"可能是跟人權有關的或者是你覺得拍攝者他要強調的重點是什麼會不會是那個車道就是車道要表達那個車道就是從兩道然後一個左轉是 非常好沒有錯 這是標準答案但標準答案不見得只有一個"},{"start":2353.446,"end":2376.795,"text":"這張照片的拍攝者原本是要做一個宣導就是我們在路面的標線最近這幾年新增了一種標線就是它有中間黃色我不知道該怎麼稱呼它就是它有一個避車彎讓左轉的車能夠提早透過黃色的標線進入到中線的車道然後在這邊帶轉以往沒有的話那會造成什麼樣的結果"},{"start":2381.317,"end":2410.077,"text":"很多車子他在中間車道準備帶轉後面的車子不曉得這是專門給左轉車帶轉的車道後面的車他可能是要直行結果卻因為中間帶轉的左轉車擋住了車道整個交通動線就因此受到影響甚至這些要直行的車只好再把方向盤往右打他又再切出來切出來中間偏"},{"start":2411.149,"end":2436.583,"text":"右的車道後面的車子如果不想讓那很容易就會發生交通事故所以這張照片要凸顯的是我們可以透過交通標線的改進提升交通運作的順暢度同時減少交通事故的發生那這件事情重不重要呢當然重要因為這幾年政府不斷在提倡"},{"start":2438.001,"end":2453.5,"text":"用路人的权益特别是行人的人身安全但提升行人的人身安全除了加重处罚之外其实我们也可以有别的方式比如说透过交通标线或耗制甚至这几年的科技执法"},{"start":2453.92,"end":2478.462,"text":"可能在座有不少同仁跟我一樣也收到科技執法的罰單收到的時候就覺得怎麼這個地方也有科技執法那個罰的都滿重的我要說明的是除了處罰之外我們也可以透過這樣的標線設計來減少交通事故所導致的人身還有財務的損失這對人權保障有沒有幫助當然有幫助所以我才會跟大家講說"},{"start":2479.723,"end":2502.563,"text":"我們未必要講得那麼刻板一定要修改什麼樣的法條從條文去看從很多這個很嚴肅的這個政策去處理這種日常生活的問題光是一個交通標線如果我們可以參考其他國家或者多一些巧思其實也可以有些不同的一個改變這就是小地方"},{"start":2503.163,"end":2518.717,"text":"所以這張照片確實沒有錯同仁很有眼光馬上看出這張照片所要傳遞的主要訊息除此之外還有沒有其他你覺得在這張照片可以看到跟人權有關的一些訊息呢麻煩"},{"start":2526.426,"end":2548.1,"text":"我在國家公民學院上課我常說應該要讓來演講的講師有個權利就是說有回答的話我們可以給他加分我們這只是演講也不考試沒有什麼加分所以沒有什麼積極的誘因我手上應該多準備一些獎品才有誘因來讓大家主動回答從這張照片可以看到什麼跟人權有關的訊息"},{"start":2561.574,"end":2568.26,"text":"大家就开始想破头 想要找出什么答案没有那么困难的啦你有没有看到什么呢没有 我曾经在我们警察单位上过这个课程也用这张照片"},{"start":2586.772,"end":2615.425,"text":"有交通警察一看这张照片里面有三辆违规停放的车辆可以开罚单所以职业的训练会让我们有不同的敏感度他一看就知道哪里有三辆我是看不出来了那很厉害所以我们可以发现什么呢我们各自的工作经验专业训练会影响到我们看待事物的观点所以我们才要交流对不对"},{"start":2616.658,"end":2642.287,"text":"那我们还看到什么呢麦克风请右边没有人行道 很好所以大家其实会受我刚才的提示引导好像就是从有关行的安全用户的权益来看这个没有人行道所以行人怎么样来使用"},{"start":2643.601,"end":2660.218,"text":"相關的道路設施他沒有考慮到人行道那可能會走到棋樓那大家都知道台灣的棋樓有些民眾為了要防範淹水自己會墊高所以高高低低有時候老人家小孩不小心可能還會跌倒那"},{"start":2661.3,"end":2685.029,"text":"甚至對於身障同胞而言他怎麼叫在高高低低的騎樓裡面通行很困難所以他被迫可能只好到路邊路邊講到電動輪椅或者是手推的輪椅可是路邊又違規停放的車輛所以你是不是看到我們要從不同人的角度來看待道路交通設施的設計"},{"start":2686.671,"end":2715.197,"text":"有沒有考慮到一般的用路人或者是身障人士他被迫要到路面的時候路邊來使用他輪椅的時候不是更危險嗎所以我們剛才講人權除了從一般的食衣住行娛樂來做觀察之外也需要從不同人群或者我們講不同不要講特殊也許是年齡也許是他有身心障礙種種的不同的角度來看待他們的需求"},{"start":2716.232,"end":2718.501,"text":"所以这也是一点还有什么样的"},{"start":2719.827,"end":2748.556,"text":"观点可以从这张照片看出来所以我说这张照片我希望能够传递一个重要的讯息提升人权保障意识促进相关法治与政策的发展我们也可以在这边经常去看每次立法院提案的时候委员们对于人权保障意识还有相关法治政策发展的态度如何我刚刚跟处长聊天说大家在立法院工作也许哪天退休的时候可以写一本书叫做《国会建文录》"},{"start":2750.604,"end":2767.869,"text":"甚至把它改編成劇本那應該會滿暢銷的所以我們可以看看我們的國會議員是不是關心這些人權保障法治跟政策的落實除了剛才所講的人行行人道的一個設計之外還有沒有什麼樣的訊息大家可以從這張照片看出來的沒有紅綠燈有紅綠燈只是在旁邊而已很小"},{"start":2781.925,"end":2804.478,"text":"有道路縮減 有一些是有道路縮減第三個路口"},{"start":2813.357,"end":2831.484,"text":"有蛮多 在前面这个好 给你 很好我这是十几年前的照片差很多 但是没有P图对 中间你按"},{"start":2839.261,"end":2848.84,"text":"他是在转区他就是对向他跟这边一样就是说这边不是有个中央车道左转吗他也是一样他在这边要左转这个车子要所以相对的设计"},{"start":2853.854,"end":2871.791,"text":"對 這邊見到話所以有時候路面標線變得更複雜也很容易出狀況改來改去我們也不曉得不過我剛才講大家不要被我前面一開始的訊息給影響了說我們一直都聚焦在談到人權從行的角度來談人權還有很多的觀點我上課的時候有朋友"},{"start":2877.984,"end":2891.153,"text":"有學員跟我說 他看到168他看到168就想到他昨天沒有做168今天沒有做168168有沒有效 我做過168有效 什麼叫168大家可以上網查一下"},{"start":2892.974,"end":2920.653,"text":"当然这不是正题168你说跟人的健康有关系因为瘦身我去年有努力做168为什么要努力做168呢因为我要跟白沙豚妈祖进香因为我妈妈是白沙豚是她的故乡所以我记得那时候为了要进香我足足168两个月真的有效而且要减少淀粉类就减少淀粉 节食 运动一个月可以瘦3到4公斤"},{"start":2921.494,"end":2945.382,"text":"但这不是今天的主题其实同仁看到168就开始想到这个是一个警讯那应该是对我而言但要看的是168出宫我讲的是168出宫有没有各位同仁我们不会请你回答你有没有做到七弟朋友做过出宫的我相信可能有的话也是非常非常少"},{"start":2946.96,"end":2961.823,"text":"为什么要讲出工呢因为他没有办法找到一个比较好的待遇可以有比较稳定的职场工作条件的保障所以他去做出工我有亲戚朋友他做出工那就是可能三天打鱼两天赛网不见得每天都有工作"},{"start":2963.236,"end":2990.058,"text":"所以在社会最底层的人他恐怕没有这样的机会把他所面临到的人权问题他生活的困境来向外面或者是政府来反映所以我常会觉得说在这里168出工对于我们立法院的同仁而言可能比较没有办法实际的透过什么样的政策去了解他们的需求可是在我所授课的一些公务员当中他们有些是社工"},{"start":2991.259,"end":3008.509,"text":"他们可能以往也不太注意到这一块所以我们就可以想一想是不是可以从社工或劳动人权的角度来思考说我们对于社会底层的工人是不是有给予比较更多的相关职场工作条件的保障或社会福利的保障"},{"start":3009.289,"end":3035.997,"text":"那这是从这张照片我们经常会在路上看到168出工可是我们却没有想到从事出工工作的同胞他们所需要的人权待遇是什么样的这个人权待遇能够获得改善那我再问大家一个问题为什么要叫168出工不会想要瘦身他应该没有时间想到瘦身的问题他只要想到工作那为什么会叫做168出工我以前没有想过"},{"start":3038.708,"end":3060.599,"text":"大家觉得为什么要叫168出宫刚刚我隐约听到一个声音可不可以大声一点对 一路发来个同仁的我们给他鼓掌一下好不好这个真的是一路发没有错 我后来听到一个大家说我不要回答就好回答就有麦克风我只是想说既然有掌声我们可以 不要 不要麦克风"},{"start":3061.619,"end":3088.721,"text":"真的一路發所以會取168也有它的原因的我後來才知道為什麼我會知道因為在國家文化學院上課的時候有一個學員他曾經當過出宮的宮頭了宮班的宮頭所以他知道這也是我孤陋寡聞大家一講我才想原來如此叫做一路發還有沒有什麼樣的訊息"},{"start":3091.499,"end":3118.392,"text":"所以我才會講說我們經常在各種場合走動 生活可是我們沒有想到說其實在我們周遭有太多的人權議題我們可能忽略了我把握點時間大家是不是有看到有飲料 隨手飲還有琳瑯滿目的招牌琳瑯滿目的招牌跟人權有沒有什麼關係"},{"start":3120.752,"end":3122.348,"text":"有關係啊因為"},{"start":3123.615,"end":3152.634,"text":"招牌雖然是一種創意促進商業活動吸引消費者的做法可是我們對於招牌的管理是很困難的問題有些民眾會覺得政府最好不要管這是我們國家的特色零零種種的各種招牌可是萬一發生火災的時候那就麻煩了這些招牌會不會是違法設置擋住了逃生通道甚至導致消防人員要進去救火"},{"start":3153.635,"end":3170.794,"text":"但是卻出不來所以對於這種消防安全來看廣告招牌的管理這跟人權保障有關係它涉及到的是萬一發生火災的時候人身財產安全還有呢"},{"start":3171.892,"end":3195.741,"text":"我們如果從營業者的角度來看這是他的營業自由該不該介入加以管制曾經有地方政府想要管但後來並沒有成功因為遭致太多的反彈所以我們發現即便我們要推動人權保障做一些改變有時候也不是那麼容易的會有不同的聲音跟看法除此之外有一個學院很特別"},{"start":3197.708,"end":3226.068,"text":"很厲害 他一看就說講座這張照片是在南投埔里拍的大家一聽我講就知道他是一個辦刑事案件的警察我說你怎麼知道我都不曉得在那拍他說這是在南投埔里的他說他們上刑事科學油門課就是從地理環境的一些資訊來判斷這個地方是在哪裡所以他看到什麼呢人情味檳榔"},{"start":3229.383,"end":3253.28,"text":"在座我不曉得有沒有人吃檳榔應該很少我們不會去注意檳榔叫什麼牌子這個警察他說仁慶味檳榔是從中部大概彰化還有南投那一帶比較靠近山區的地方開始發跡的所以它後來就形成中部滿有特色的一個品牌叫仁慶味檳榔"},{"start":3254.929,"end":3284.278,"text":"那这是他根据他形式科学的一些训练他能够判断这张照片是哪里拍的后来科技进步了有一个学员他就直接用手机一拍搜寻就查出来所以我们发现人权会随着科技工具的改变而有不同的一个影响他可以很快知道说照片是哪里拍的也可能很快就知道说你人在哪里所以我们才会讲说人权保障"},{"start":3285.118,"end":3292.342,"text":"其實有很多不同的層面不是只有行的問題也包括勞工人權的問題包括科技人權的問題零零總總講到檳榔"},{"start":3297.548,"end":3323.207,"text":"大沒有經驗 我也沒有經驗有一年有位德國的教授來台灣演講我邀請他來我也安排他到我們台東的東華大學去演講那一次我特別邀請我一個學生他曾經是台商比較能言善道 個性也比較活潑我就請台商同學陪同我去招待這位來自德國的學者"},{"start":3324.451,"end":3343.42,"text":"這位學者在花蓮東華大學演講完之後隔天他就要搭飛機回德國我們是趕飛機但在趕飛之前還是要從花蓮坐火車回到台北就在搭這種小的接送巴士的路上經過路邊有在賣檳榔的幾個攤位"},{"start":3346.736,"end":3373.21,"text":"我剛才講檳榔 大家可能都沒有吃過我這個台商學生就很調皮他就跟那個德國學者講說這個是很有名的台灣口香糖你要不要試看看這個德國學者其實是充滿好奇心的他雖然來過台灣幾次還是第一次去花蓮他就想說好 台灣口香糖是什麼我這個學生就都不跟他講然後學生就跑下去買了"},{"start":3374.561,"end":3395.632,"text":"拉著我要我也一起嘗嘗我是打死不從打死不從因為我不知道那到底是什麼味道我也不敢冒這個風險因為萬一吃到什麼叫倒吊子的那個風險很高這個德國教授看我抵死不從他更好奇了這個台灣口香糖到底是什麼味道他就把它"},{"start":3397.715,"end":3418.829,"text":"放到嘴巴咬了幾口他很想吐出來很想吐出來然後他就問我這個台上學生說這到底是什麼他可以吐出來嗎然後我這個學生說你要吐也可以你也可以吞下去總之他本來很疲憊的身體吃了這一口檳榔之後覺得人就亢奮起來了他問我說這個東西是合法的嗎"},{"start":3420.182,"end":3444.07,"text":"我说这是违法的他一听到违法他就知道德国人很守法听到违法他就很紧张他吃了违法的东西我就跟他讲说开玩笑的这个怎么会是违法的违法还在路边可以买得到他就比较放松了结果他吃了台湾槟榔之后他就问我的学生说这个可不可以带回德国他想带给德国他的学生尝一尝我为什么要讲这个小故事"},{"start":3445.595,"end":3473.789,"text":"不同的國家基於文化背景飲食習慣的差異我們對很多事物的了解跟感知觀點也不見得相同這就是為什麼我們今天要談人權的問題我們為什麼要談國際人權公約我們也要有憲法為什麼我們要去看國際人權公約因為從國際的觀點來看每個國家他的文化背景法治等等的差異可能也要"},{"start":3475.165,"end":3499.696,"text":"彼此互相借鏡跟學習所以我們可以從國際人權公約來想一想說我們台灣在推動人權保障的部分既有的法律跟政策有什麼不足那國外有什麼樣的不錯例子可以作為借鏡的那講到這個檳榔真的是其他國家我也沒看過了所以如果你將來招待外國朋友來台灣的時候你可以跟他講這叫台灣檳榔讓他嘗一嘗好 那我們回到正題"},{"start":3501.477,"end":3525.565,"text":"這是前不久的一個訊息今年4月的新聞報導當然我要先聲明我不是說我引述哪個報紙就表示我支持特定報紙的立場我要先做這個澄清只是剛好看到而已防止疲勞駕駛遊覽車全面加裝駕駛識別設備打算明年元旦上路我特別把重要的部分標示黃色交通部修法要求遊覽車全面裝設駕駛身份識別設備"},{"start":3529.734,"end":3544.675,"text":"為什麼呢因為我們從過去發生的交通事故發現有些駕駛時間工作時間太長所以他有時候無法控制車輛在安全的速限以下"},{"start":3546.727,"end":3557.937,"text":"甚至可以透過GPS的監控系統來查一查他們進行的路段車輛有沒有預期 沒有檢驗這些會發出警告這要傳回公路局的遊覽車客運動態資訊管理系統"},{"start":3561.081,"end":3589.592,"text":"所以我們看到不管是遊覽車或是市區內的公車仍然會有一些交通事故的發生我們可以通過科技設備的改進減少這一類交通事故的發生所以這就是一個進步這是一個進步這當然涉及到說相關的遊覽車業者他的經營成本會增加可是從人權的角度來看這當然是重要的一件事情"},{"start":3591.375,"end":3613.908,"text":"所以什麼叫人權呢這是我在學校上課有時候會希望同學自己去看一看國家人權博物館談到台灣人權改變的一個歷史進程在我們的一些官方版本的教育素材當中都會提到什麼叫人權作為人基本不可或缺的權利叫做人權"},{"start":3614.868,"end":3624,"text":"那我常觉得这样的说明有说跟没说是差不多的啦所以我习惯把重点放在这个字全这个字全这个字呢"},{"start":3624.997,"end":3646.122,"text":"大家如果去問我們國會議員他們的體會跟我們不一樣他們可能認為權當然很重要我要取得權力我才有辦法實踐理想或者是點點點這個字我把它分三個面向來談就是權力 力量的力還有利益的利另外一個是比較少人談的古人講的權變"},{"start":3648.223,"end":3668.084,"text":"所以前面這兩個觀點大家都很熟悉就是國家擁有公權力不管是行政立法司法都有公權力所以國家擁有公權力目的是什麼保障人民的基本權利可是我們要防止國家公權力違法違憲侵害人民的權利所以需要有一個標準畫出一條線"},{"start":3669.412,"end":3697.134,"text":"那除了避免國家公權利不管是行政 立法 司法部門它違法違憲 侵害人民權益之外我們也期待說我們透過憲法種種基本權利的條款來保障人民有這樣的基本權利請求國家給予各種資源照顧 補助款等等所以這個關係權利跟權力之間的關係很重要就是法規範的標準是什麼這個標準就是我們法律在講"},{"start":3698.416,"end":3707.193,"text":"这个规则法规则或是法原则那这个我就不再多说但是全面这个部分是什么呢"},{"start":3708.081,"end":3735.731,"text":"权变的部分古人讲就是要通权达变也就是虽然我们有规则有原则但我们知道法律条文都会有所谓的但书就是例外所以什么时候该有例外例外该怎么设计其实就意味着我们要懂得权变但这其实是一个很大的学问我想大家在立法院经常看到委员们在讨论就是哪些对象放到规范的范围适用对象范围哪些要除外但书要怎么写这经常在辩论"},{"start":3736.671,"end":3760.551,"text":"我在底下放的这个图大家应该比较有印象因为才发生没几年了虽然我们可能已经淡忘了不少就是新冠肺炎的发生新冠肺炎从2020年开始到2023大概三年多的时间当然它现在还没有完全结束只不过说影响不再像几年前那么大在新冠肺炎发生之初"},{"start":3761.994,"end":3779.129,"text":"可能我們也還不太曉得究竟它會有多嚴重的一個後果不過當時我剛好在某個政府機關上課那時候很怕會傳染給大家因為我不曉得這是什麼樣的疾病所以上課的時候必須戴著口罩"},{"start":3780.034,"end":3804.054,"text":"那在座还有不少同学也戴着口罩我记得我第一次戴着口罩上课的时候真的是快喘不过气了不过后来就已经习惯了所以那时候我在上课的时候差不多是2020年的2月我记得我在上课前放了这张图这张图后来我们在很多网路上都可以找得到当时我在国外的公共卫生医疗网站看到这张图的时候我觉得非常重要"},{"start":3805.717,"end":3825.963,"text":"那隨著後來疫情的發展國內的許多公共衛生醫療專家不斷的告訴我們一些觀念大家現在對這張圖要傳遞的訊息就變得非常了解了可是在新冠肺炎剛開始發生的時候其實大家不了解這張圖到底在講什麼這張圖的標題叫做raising the line"},{"start":3826.783,"end":3853.143,"text":"while flattening the curve就是你要提高这条线从底下的这条虚线大家手上有奖励可以看一下从这个虚线拉高到上面比较深的这条虚线与此同时还要做什么事情呢让这个曲线从比较陡峭的曲线变成比较平缓的曲线我们要来说明这个虚线跟曲线的意思是什么这个虚线的意思呢"},{"start":3854.284,"end":3861.589,"text":"是指current health system capacity底下的虚线指的是当前医疗体系的量能"},{"start":3864.729,"end":3885.634,"text":"公共卫生的医疗网站它说国家 政府在当时新冠肺炎发生的时候要赶快做的事情其中之一就是要提高医疗体系的量能从底下的这条续线往上提高所以它写Goal for increased health system capacity把医疗体系的量能能够提高"},{"start":3886.701,"end":3915.087,"text":"所以我們再去回想新冠肺炎造成全球人類的死亡跟經濟的損失可以算是20世紀之後我們前所未見的除了戰爭以外所以我們可以問問家裡面的長輩爺爺奶奶 外公外婆可能他們的人生經驗也沒有碰過影響這麼劇烈的這種急性傳染病所以要提高醫療體系的量能大家可以回想當時政府做了什麼呢"},{"start":3916.147,"end":3934.554,"text":"不是口罩国家队吗那要赶快制造口罩到处去找哪里有疫苗买疫苗要不要打预防针或者是我们要有治疗的药物还有隔离病房 病床甚至出入境的管制"},{"start":3936.594,"end":3964.619,"text":"這些其實是什麼呢有些是醫療體系量能的提升包括醫藥人員的出入自由的管制另外有些可能是其他對民眾衛生習慣的一個提醒或者防疫措施的一個作為所以我們可以看到其中一個就是醫療體系量能的提升曲線的部分再來看一下曲線他說如果不採取一些protective measures"},{"start":3966.105,"end":3985.081,"text":"確診的案件還有死亡的個案數目就會不斷的增加突然的增加是像這條曲線一樣Cases without protective measures如果我們可以採取一些防護性的措施戴口罩或者是不要出入容易傳染的公眾聚集的場所"},{"start":3985.601,"end":4012.212,"text":"那Cases with protective measures采取一些保护措施包括出入境的管制那传染的速度跟确诊使用的人数就不会增加的那么快它会变成比较平缓的曲线这有什么重要性比较平缓的曲线不要让我们的医疗体系崩溃这一句话我们是不是在疫情的期间常听到政府这么说每天开记者会不管中央或地方不要让医疗体系崩溃医疗体系崩溃的话那就很麻烦了"},{"start":4013.032,"end":4024.867,"text":"所以从这张图我们回想一下整个新冠肺炎发生的这个历程从对岸的武汉后来传到欧洲意大利到英国英国一开始做什么事情"},{"start":4027.15,"end":4044.215,"text":"英國一開始做什麼事情佛系防疫有沒有西方社會覺得這沒什麼就跟感冒一樣結果歐洲很慘那我們為什麼會有這種警覺心因為我們在SARS發生的時候我們幾乎沒有得到任何國際的支持"},{"start":4044.935,"end":4071.008,"text":"所以我們的警覺性會比較高所以我們對這種急性傳染病我們的警覺性比較高政府是嚴肅看待所以雖然中間當然有些措施引起不少的爭議但至少大致的方向就是循著這張圖在處理的所以我才會在今天這一門課跟大家講說我們歷經了新冠肺炎這麼影響非常大的一個國際性的急性傳染疾病"},{"start":4072.345,"end":4100.856,"text":"總是要留些經驗跟教訓來提醒我們自己所以在這張圖裡面我左邊就用一些文字敘述為了要防止新冠肺炎的擴散提供充足醫療照護資源根據醫療公衛專家研究建議各國政府要採取預防措施來使病毒擴散的速度能夠減緩同時也要提升醫療體系的量能避免病患人數超出醫療體系的負擔"},{"start":4102.686,"end":4125.299,"text":"這可以算是指導著許多國家度過疫情很關鍵的一個原則 一個理念各個國家是否貫徹跟各個國家的政府態度也有關係所以在這張圖我在左邊有兩個術語比例原則大家可能都很熟悉"},{"start":4126.98,"end":4152.503,"text":"成為公務員大概都會對於行政程序法多少些認識對於一般我們在進行違憲審查所講的比例原則大家都聽過了這個老生常談比例原則講的是手段跟目的的關係手段必須要有助於目的的達成各種有效的手段當中必須選擇干預限制人民最小的手段那手段所造成失憶的犧牲不能大於目的所要追求的公益可是我要問大家一個問題"},{"start":4154.346,"end":4170.522,"text":"比例原則在想的是手段跟目的的關係在它第二個子原則也就是所謂各種有效的措施手段當中要選擇干預限制人權最小的手段如果我們把它放在新冠肺炎發生那個時期來看"},{"start":4171.704,"end":4191.155,"text":"我們只選擇一個手段夠嗎只要大家戴口罩或者是限制國人出入境的自由回國的時候要做隔離措施要到隔離的處所也許是七天或兩個禮拜如果只採取一個單一的措施夠嗎"},{"start":4193.633,"end":4210.185,"text":"這是我想國內很多法學者在思考新冠肺炎跟法治衝突的時候很多還是站在比較傳統的比例人的角度在看待新冠肺炎所帶來的挑戰我個人有些不同的想法我覺得新冠肺炎它是一個"},{"start":4211.684,"end":4240.047,"text":"不是我們過去經驗所能夠了解的一種急性傳染疾病面對這種特殊狀況恐怕只採取一種措施是不夠的所以對比例原則我覺得在經歷過新冠肺炎之後我們應該有些新的想法如果我們說人權很重要生命 健康 財產這些都是人權要保障的範圍對象 它很重要可是在一些關鍵的時刻我們恐怕不能只仰賴單一的措施跟手段簡而言之"},{"start":4240.928,"end":4243.552,"text":"就是古人所讲的要多管齐下"},{"start":4244.631,"end":4271.546,"text":"多管齐下那我觉得今天我们台湾在处理很多问题的时候有时候也要想想事实上是要多管齐下不管是在犯罪的防治或者前不久有很多婴幼儿受到虐待的事件他可能有很多的环节都出了问题我们也不能只想到某一种措施那就够了所以我觉得新冠肺炎对于比利原则的冲击可以让我们去想一想比利原则他所预设的立场"},{"start":4271.986,"end":4296.46,"text":"好像是隱含著只能選擇一個手段而已但我很懷疑在特殊狀況之下這樣一個單一手段足夠嗎所以我覺得是不是要想想多管齊一下另外在這張圖的左邊有一個英文單字每日一字這個Nudge Theory大家都知道這理論那什麼叫Nudge有沒有學員有沒有我們同仁知道第一個單字的意思的可不可以舉個手"},{"start":4298.894,"end":4320.672,"text":"大家都很怕被我问问题我应该请我们处长可以让我有这个权利等一下又回答问题正确的同仁我们应该给他一些礼物我不能逾越我的权利我不能开口说大话所以还是先问大家什么叫Nudge有没有学经济的同仁背景是经济学的应该要"},{"start":4322.526,"end":4334.752,"text":"如果是經濟學的話大家會曉得這個字這個Nudge N-U-D-G它的意思就是輕推用手肘輕輕的推所以這個字加上theory直白的翻譯就是輕推理論"},{"start":4336.846,"end":4353.954,"text":"如果沒有記錯應該是在2014還是2015年諾貝爾經濟學獎的得主Richard Thaler他跟美國哈佛大學一個著名的法學教授叫Kate Sunstein他們曾經寫過不少的文章跟書籍這個Richard Thaler他在提倡一個理論就叫做清推理論"},{"start":4354.814,"end":4382.631,"text":"什么叫清推理论呢就是我们可以用比较少的成本甚至不要用强力的干涉管制措施就可以达成我们目的的话那我们应该要思考用这样的方式会不会比较好所以他把这样的理论就称为清推理论用手轴轻轻的推家里的小朋友就会赶快在暑假结束之前把作业写好那当然是不太可能的他可能还是抱着iPad电脑在那边继续上网"},{"start":4383.191,"end":4410.396,"text":"那你可能就要采取更强烈的措施如果他还没有办法自治的话那如果相反的你给他一些诱因轻轻推一下说你如果在这个礼拜五之前把暑假作业写完带你去吃大餐或看什么样的表演也许他就愿意了所以讲清推理论他不是只有用这种干涉限制人权的角度来思考各种政府的措施他也包括提供一些诱因"},{"start":4411.437,"end":4426.656,"text":"轻轻一推那人民就愿意配合所以Nature Theory大家来想一下在疫情发生的期间我们政府有没有采用一些清推理论跟他很相似的一些建议或者是指引呢"},{"start":4428.007,"end":4455.452,"text":"指引这两个字大家常听说吗指引如果严格来讲它不是法律它是不具有强制力的建议如果按照我们行政程序法的说明它就是行政指导那这一类的指引呢虽然不具有强制力但它有没有效果有时候会有效果所以我们讲所谓的清推理论在疫情的时候我们的卫生主管机关是不是发布很多的指引"},{"start":4456.294,"end":4478.506,"text":"那我们民众素养比较高讲白话的人说我们怕死我们很紧张所以民众就会自愿配合是不是有一个在公共场合你要结账的时候或者在排队的时候有地上画的一些红点保持社交距离几公尺那就可以减少被传染的风险"},{"start":4479.346,"end":4507.278,"text":"所以我們在疫情期間有很多的指引包括戴口罩或者是地上畫一些保持社交距離我們也都很願意配合但在其他國家民眾他們自由自在慣了他可能覺得這就是政府的限制甚至連口罩他們都不戴那他們就要承擔一些後果我們在疫情的時候還有什麼樣的措施跟清退理論是很類似呢有幾次嚴重到都考慮要封城了"},{"start":4508.171,"end":4512.571,"text":"有没有印象曾经有一个电视谈话性节目"},{"start":4513.649,"end":4540.991,"text":"我印象很深他当时找了一个新加坡的医生岳阳连线这个新加坡的医生这个新加坡的医生是我们台湾医学院培养出来的这个新加坡的医生说就是要封城就是要封城大张旗鼓的说就是要封城我心里面都在想说我们台湾跟新加坡不一样新加坡做得到我们台湾如果封城的话那经济损失多少我们怎么封 会不会有漏洞做得到吗最后我们有没有封城不管是台北或新北 没有"},{"start":4543.018,"end":4556.452,"text":"我们没有封城虽然有些地方首长本来有考虑后来我们没有封城如果是封城那就是一个非常强烈的干预人民行动自由人身自由的措施可是我们政府做什么呢"},{"start":4558.008,"end":4574.646,"text":"這時候疫情很嚴重了我們希望某些禮拜六禮拜日民眾盡量不要外出包括一些市場也不要去採買了所以我們看到有一些疫情很嚴峻的時刻從空中拍的空照圖路上幾乎沒有什麼車也沒有什麼人"},{"start":4577.235,"end":4588.609,"text":"這個跟封城是幾乎同樣的效果然後疫情就稍微得到舒緩所以我們發現這個清退理論能不能成功跟國民素質是有關係的"},{"start":4590.271,"end":4613.988,"text":"所以在國外的學者他們研究也是如此所以才會在疫情我們台灣的表現至少某一些層面得到很多國際的肯定這是不容易的一件事情所以為什麼要講這個我們講國際人權公約不是說只有我們跟國外學習我們台灣也有做得不錯的範例可以給國外作為參考的這個倒不需要妄自菲薄"},{"start":4615.543,"end":4641.416,"text":"那接著來跟大家分享一個觀點看待人權問題國際人權公約它只是文本它只是一些公約它要經過轉換的方式變成國內法或是國內的很多政策那在談到這些國際人權公約以及我國國內的法律跟政策如何做一個相應的調整之前我們還是要想想說這背後比較更深層的容易把握的一些觀點或者是理論是什麼"},{"start":4642.356,"end":4662.339,"text":"所以我剛剛講的關於疫情裡面所提到的這個圖清退理論或者傳統比例原則跟比例原則是不是要有更多的反省都是可以作為我們進步思考的一個方向接下來這個方向我把它稱為是供應鏈的觀點Perspective of Supply Chain供應鏈這個英文單字很簡單大家都看得懂"},{"start":4664.031,"end":4687.204,"text":"这是我美国加州大学博莱分校的指导教授,他叫Daniel Farber,大家都可以去查,他的名字很好记,丹尼尔丹尼尔,姓是Farber。他在2009年曾经写了一篇文章,这篇文章的主题是Adapting to Climate Change,Who Should Pay?这个因应气候变迁,谁应当承担减碳或者调试因应的相关成本。"},{"start":4688.024,"end":4709.278,"text":"他提出了幾個有關成本分配的有趣思考方向,包括Beneficiary's Pay,受益者負擔,Emitter's Pay,排放者負擔,或是Public Pay,公眾負擔,或是贏家負擔。他這篇文章是我剛到美國念書的時候讀了一篇,他的著作之一,他的許多著作其中的一篇,我覺得啟發性很大。"},{"start":4711.397,"end":4728.358,"text":"我觉得甚至我们在处理很多问题的时候都可以从这个角度来想一想我想请教大家什么叫做受益者负担气候变迁会不会有受益者有啊气候变迁如果对本来不能利用的土地因为全球暖化"},{"start":4729.572,"end":4754.065,"text":"那它可能以前是北极附近的冰洞的洞源结冰的洞源它可能融化之后这底下的矿产可能就可以运用所以有些人会得到利益排放者负担这个就是我们最了解的排放权交易或者是碳税因为你制造污染所以这是我们台湾经常在处理有关碳税或碳肥的问题"},{"start":4755.166,"end":4782.914,"text":"Public Pays那到處就是公眾來承擔比如說超出這個排放者能夠承擔的部分就用政府的預算來處理那贏家負擔呢什麼叫Winner's PayWinner's Pay就是根據你在整個氣候變遷的過程當中如果你是更有能力的人那你要負擔更大的責任來減少碳排放所以在我們的這個"},{"start":4785.683,"end":4809.771,"text":"再生能源發展條例有一個條文最近這幾年修正就提到說如果是你的企業他是用電大戶他可能就要考慮自己興建再生能源設備或者是要去購買其他的再生能源憑證這就是所謂的Winners Pay因為你是用電大戶你比較其他中小企業你是用電大戶"},{"start":4810.851,"end":4823.518,"text":"整個企業的經營上因為比較有能力來負擔這些成本所以我們可以從這幾個方向來思考它其實會反映在我們的很多法律跟政策上面如果從這個角度來看"},{"start":4824.659,"end":4852.542,"text":"我底下加了一個這次我們演講的過程當中我加了這個標題叫做河山延譯還是重啟理論上它已經是停譯了應該是重啟才對 而不是延譯到底該不該延譯還是重啟有很多的課題上禮拜我們才看到公投這個公投當然比例大家各自有不同的解讀我想請教大家是如果河山重啟或延譯"},{"start":4854.211,"end":4877.639,"text":"我們還要維持在原本的地點的話在屏東我們要不要想想說以往核能電廠都是國營事業為什麼會有核酸延營或重啟的問題講直白一點就是我們的高科技產業半導體產業還有所謂的AI需要有更龐大的用電需求如果從這個角度來看在很多國家它的"},{"start":4878.615,"end":4895.405,"text":"核能公司並不是國營的能源公司而是私人經營的能源公司所以我們有沒有辦法去想想說既然是因為這些高科技產業AI的企業他們需要用更多的電那核能這一塊要不要讓"},{"start":4897.106,"end":4923.742,"text":"國家結合這些高科技業者我們就來成立核能新的核能公司它不是在台電主管的一個範圍而是要由其他民間的資金來投入因為民間資金其實還蠻有錢的我看一下合碩它好像前六個月的總營收就已經五千多億了大家知道我在講董事長合碩最近董事長聲量很大"},{"start":4925,"end":4933.571,"text":"五千多億是什麼概念我們中央政府總共算一年多少錢大概七八年前是兩兆出頭現在是三兆出頭"},{"start":4935.998,"end":4962.14,"text":"三兆出头光合作它的营收大家不能只看营收要看它的经营力我们就举单一家公司它就5000多亿前6个月那是不是要让高级产业也来参与核电的经营这样来分散我们国营事业的经营压力这个想法到目前为止我们有看过在报章里上有什么样的讨论可是我们看到包括德国包括日本美国很多核电公司是民营的核电公司"},{"start":4963.711,"end":4983.278,"text":"這個想法我拋出來給大家想一想其實核三營業重啟還有很多的問題可以討論我在這邊要講的是說受益者負擔因為有了核電我們的高級產業AI產業才可以持續發展他們得到更多的經濟收益甚至Winners Pay他們是贏家他們交友能力"},{"start":4984.472,"end":5006.662,"text":"所以這個觀點讓大家想一想也許你會有興趣來讀這篇文章其實不難你只要把它下載現在AI很方便這篇文章丟進去把它翻成中文了所以提供這個觀點讓大家思考我要講的是供應鏈的觀點能源很重要能源才有辦法去從事各種生產還有經濟活動供應鏈的觀點底下我要談的是這號解釋"},{"start":5008.735,"end":5034.792,"text":"这一号解释 788号的解释当时我们还没有改成宪法诉讼法还是由司法院大法官的这个违宪审查方式做成这个解释这个解释是近几年来少数有关环境法的一号大法官解释主要涉及到废弃物清理法回收清除处理费问题谁有负担回收清除处理费所以我为什么要谈这一号解释呢我在提醒大家"},{"start":5036.047,"end":5064.543,"text":"印證的是什麼叫供應鏈的觀點這要解釋涉及的爭點包括這個廢棄物經理法沒有在法律明定誰要繳交回收清除處理費業者的範圍是誰法律沒有明定但是他授權給主管機關來定可不可以用行政命令的方式來定這樣有沒有違反法律保留原則這是其中一個爭點大法官結論是說這個並沒有違反法律保留原則用行政命令來定業者的繳費業者範圍也是可以的"},{"start":5065.183,"end":5085.502,"text":"另外一個主要的整點也就是在這邊我所討論的環境部 以前是環保署他用行政命令來公告容器商品製造業者而不是容器製造業者作為繳費責任業者有沒有違反評的原則大家看到這裡會覺得很繞口什麼叫做容器商品製造業"},{"start":5086.772,"end":5106.564,"text":"什麼叫做容器製造業容器商品就是大家買的瓶裝飲料賣飲料的業者 你就懂了台灣沙士或者是什麼樣的茶飲賣飲料的業者就是容器商品製造業者容器製造業者是製造外包裝可能是鐵罐 鋁罐或者是寶特瓶的業者"},{"start":5108.874,"end":5137.822,"text":"在主管機關他公告是以容器商品製造業而不是製作容器的這我們違反品的原則我想請教大家我們先不管大法官怎麼說不用看資料也不用管環境部他在命令裡面是怎麼規定的你覺得繳回收清除處理費應該是由賣飲料的業者來繳回收清除處理費還是製作飲料外包裝的業者要繳回收清除處理費"},{"start":5139.895,"end":5159.986,"text":"大家想一想先不用看獎勵的答案了你覺得是賣飲料業者要繳回收清除處理費的麻煩舉個手我們動一動四五票你認為是製作外包裝容器鐵罐 鋁罐還有寶特瓶的這些業者要繳回收清除處理費的麻煩舉個手好像比較多 謝謝"},{"start":5161.553,"end":5174.187,"text":"我們傳統的觀念確實如此大家都覺得汙染者付費嘛所以你製造外包裝 鐵罐 鋁罐寶特瓶到最後要回收那當然是容器製造業者一定要繳回收清除處理費可是大法官說"},{"start":5175.461,"end":5199.632,"text":"他贊同環境部的命令就是要由容器商品製造業者來繳費就是賣飲料業者來繳費我們再看大法官的解釋理由怎麼說之前這張照片是兩年前2023年我在日本某個大學演講的時候跟日本的學生分享的一個照片大家都知道台灣的民產"},{"start":5201.913,"end":5204.877,"text":"可能没喝过的人很少但至少都听过这个牌子"},{"start":5206.26,"end":5232.518,"text":"博朗咖啡 維大利還有保利達B我在跟日本學者分享這張照片的時候幫我翻譯的日本學者經常來台灣然後他跟我也還蠻熟的他說他也可以介紹同樣的這些刺激性飲料日本有哪些品牌比我們更多我一聽就會心一笑因為很顯然的日本的學者跟台灣的學者都是很過勞的所以他跟我一樣都經常喝這些刺激性飲料所以"},{"start":5236.085,"end":5244.253,"text":"這張照片這是一個禮盒包裝這都是刺激性飲料保麗達冰有沒有人喝過有喝過的舉手 謝謝還有大家還常喝你們在立法院辛苦了為什麼會喝保麗達冰提神保生"},{"start":5259.81,"end":5287.528,"text":"想嘗試而已 對很多是想嘗試而已我從來沒有喝過我也不曉得那什麼味道也就是兩年前我跟白沙土的媽祖進鄉的時候我表弟他是海軍陸戰隊退伍他走了十幾年他的身材仍然維持得很標準那我兩年前走去城我已經體力不支快不行了然後他就跟我說表哥 來一杯然後就拿一杯保利達B不知道加什麼"},{"start":5288.368,"end":5313.966,"text":"我当时很犹豫该不该喝后来实在是身体体力不济我就尝试看看喝下去的那一瞬间我身体从舌头到胃每一个味觉细胞告诉我一个讯息Never again就是怎么一股药味我觉得很不舒服那就"},{"start":5315.356,"end":5343.344,"text":"这进泻不明那喝过的铜人我不晓得什么感觉那我表弟说那是那个善心的民众他调配的配方不对才会让你感觉有药味那人就是这样你喝了保利达B大概其他你也会都试看看后来在回程的时候呢回程的时候又有人拿这些提前饮料了有一个大家应该都听过白玛玛利亨就是那个沙很大那我就想说保利达B我都喝了沙很大"},{"start":5344.532,"end":5373.477,"text":"我没有听他们广告的意思我也拿来喝看看就觉得甜甜的感觉比较好喝了所以人就是这么奇怪当有些事情你尝试过之后你就觉得再试试也没什么差别了所以我刚才说我们两个小时要让大家休息十分钟现在也许你需要喝一点提神饮料三点半我们休息个十分钟三点四十的时候再来进行后半部后半部比较多就要看国际人权公约的一些文本我们稍微休息个十分钟"},{"start":5380.742,"end":5391.424,"text":"這其實就是會從國際人權談到我們要內國法律的實踐因為國際人權公約它要通過內國法化內國法化並不是說我們直接把人權公約的規定定進來就好我們要在法律跟政策裡面去落實它"},{"start":5404.288,"end":5432.348,"text":"所以我們觀看那些公約就覺得有些跟我們憲法的基本人權有些不一樣可是那些人權公約到最後你還是要內國法化內國法化其實就是要本質在法跟政策所以我們觀看那些公約這段規定我們沒有內國法化的話那些公約就只是印在那裡的文本所以我才會說我希望讓大家能夠貼近跟國際人權公約的距離"},{"start":5433.55,"end":5451.288,"text":"然後來想一想說其實這些人權問題在我們日常生活中都有可是我們如果把它內國化的話恐怕是比起我們單純加入或單純認識這些股市的權益來得更重要否則就變成說規定在那裡 我知道這是規定so what你沒有去實踐 落實那就是這個規定"},{"start":5452.549,"end":5478.405,"text":"所以我才會在前半部通常我們先跑到這裡看我的副本就知道講到這裡就讓大家休息後面就會拉到國際人權公約文本的一些介紹包括它形成的背景然後包括說我們如何內國法化然後我們內國法化有哪些組織有哪些政治相關的部門在推動最後我們還有附許國際人權公約的檢視要提交國家人權報告然後提前國際人權公約國際人權的專家選舉來檢視這個在後半部的講明你們就知道"},{"start":5482.507,"end":5500.923,"text":"對 我覺得光講這些其實以在立法院的公約來講那更不會去具有這樣的任務說我要怎麼樣通過法律或政策那是立委的事情那是行政部門的事情但我們會做的是什麼我們會整行政部行政部門把這些實踐國際政治公約"},{"start":5501.946,"end":5516.561,"text":"精神的法律它怎麼去實踐還有政策 規則是國家的原報送到立法院或者是在立法院立法委員會檢視人權報告這個其實才是更重要所以我覺得從立法院的角度來看跟行政部門是不太一樣"},{"start":5518.789,"end":5533.246,"text":"所以我常常說這些觀點包括我講供應鏈的觀點我們不能只是聚焦在等一下你們看到那七八八的解析其實蠻有價值的你不能只看某一個部分某一個端點你要看上午要看下午處理"},{"start":5535.714,"end":5558.664,"text":"回收 清除污漬的問題你不能只看 因為你是做好喝品 鐵罐旅客的業績你就要負擔這個業務因為他為什麼要做鐵罐旅客的保熱品是因為賣飲料業者有這個需求所以賣飲料業者去下這個單位說我要什麼材質 包裝材質 大小型的所以有決定權的要賣飲料業者所以在拉拉說這個跟環境有關"},{"start":5561.634,"end":5573.342,"text":"減少廢棄物 廢棄物回收相關法制要修正國外的做法 國際人工公園 ESG這些包括防止塑膠污染的公約這也是跟生物 不只人類 跟海洋生物有關係"},{"start":5579.332,"end":5591.875,"text":"所以你會開始覺得說怎麼沒有在談國際的公約但我主要把他分成兩塊先讓他有一個生活化的感受因為教授你會講兩公約或是什麼兩公約後面也有什麼公約什麼公約但是那個講解就會讓他覺得我經常去上這些課而且他會跟我們互動今天好像上這堂課"},{"start":5605.558,"end":5605.978,"text":"謝謝教授 謝謝教授 謝謝"},{"start":5975.831,"end":6000.965,"text":"好 我们还有50分钟的时间我们就继续今天第二小时的一个内容刚刚有学员问我说有同学问我说怎么都没有谈到国际人权公约确实我的进行的方式跟其他讲国际人权公约的学者老师不太一样也许其他人会把重心一直放在国际人权公约它的文本的内容"},{"start":6002.281,"end":6030.802,"text":"还有国际人权法院或者是其他国际组织的一些案例但我常觉得这些固然是很重要可是讲人权重点还是要落实在我们台湾所以我会觉得说我先抛出一些例子让大家对于人权意识的提升有一些更多的了解"},{"start":6031.673,"end":6043.304,"text":"然後我們舉一些例子是跟台灣有關的例子這樣才會更貼近說究竟這些人權公約如何在台灣透過法律或政策落實才是更重要更具體的"},{"start":6044.759,"end":6067.471,"text":"所以我通常在兩個小時的內容我前半段差不多就是講到這裡就會讓大家稍微休息一下提神一下後半段就會講到國際人權公約它的形成的背景還有它的一些內容還有一些案例但案例的部分我還是會重點放在說我們為了要實踐這些國際人權公約的要求我們如何把它內國法化"},{"start":6068.331,"end":6082.307,"text":"爬内国法化透过一些组织来实践它这是接下来的内容所以我一开始有跟大家讲说我希望今天这两个小时其实时间不长能够让大家有些不一样的观点"},{"start":6083.385,"end":6096.504,"text":"那這些觀點可能過去你沒有想過的那能夠跟大家做一些交流包括我剛才所講的清推理論或者是新冠肺炎讓我們對於比利原則有重新的認識還有包括現在所講的供應鏈的觀點供應鏈的觀點"},{"start":6100.208,"end":6125.396,"text":"大家談到供應鏈自然就會想到台灣的高科技產業在川普第一任上任之後造成全球供應鏈重組讓大家對供應鏈這個概念有更多的認識但他絕對不是只有在科技業可以運用這個觀點而已我們來看在我們大法官的788號解釋他有提到立法者"},{"start":6126.618,"end":6143.755,"text":"考量政策目标还有不同材质废弃物对环境的影响回收处理技术及成本等因素涉及高度专业跟技术性所以因为非常的专业充满的很技术性的问题所以立法者他没有办法在法律里面"},{"start":6144.813,"end":6158.373,"text":"做太详尽的规定因此立法者就把客征回收清除处理费的对象客征的对象费率怎么计算那授权给主管机关用命令来定大法官认为是合乎宪法的"},{"start":6159.045,"end":6176.568,"text":"那在法律条文裡面是有提到物品或其包装容器製造出業者是要繳回收清除處理費的責任業者那什麼叫物品呢這兩個字大家可能會覺得說什麼叫物品物品就是物品嘛只是法律大家經常看委員在審查案件就知道有時候需要定義的"},{"start":6177.449,"end":6197.174,"text":"所以这个法律 废弃物清理法对于物品并没有明白去定义那只好透过解释文艺解释或者是立法目的的解释它包含了容器商品像是我们这个解释所涉及的瓶装饮料还有包括其他的物品冰箱的 机油冷煤的这些都是可能物品可以包含的范围"},{"start":6197.734,"end":6214.655,"text":"那至于业者的范围呢法律条文法律本身也没有规定业者的范围是什么所以从法律本身大法官认为业者的范围法律没有定那当然可能可以包括容器商品或其他物品的制造数业者"},{"start":6215.613,"end":6240.233,"text":"容器製造業者也都可以認定為是繳費增業者所以簡而言之什麼叫做回收清除處理費的製造物品的製造數業者繳費的業者從條文本身來看有可能包括容器商品製造業也就是賣飲料的業者或者是容器製造業者就是鐵罐 鋁罐 寶特瓶這些製造業者"},{"start":6242.185,"end":6269.773,"text":"究竟要選哪個業者來作為責任業者呢那變成要看行政機關怎麼訂那我們來看大館說什麼主管機關就是環境部他以飲料製造業者也就是容器商品製造業者而不是容器製造業者作為責任業者是考慮到商品使用的容器通常是飲料製造業者所訂製容器的種類 材質 大小 形式通常也是由"},{"start":6271.189,"end":6285.617,"text":"飲料業者依據他們的需求而決定所以這句話其實很重要為什麼重要呢講白話誰做的決定誰就要負責我們在立法院經常碰到"},{"start":6286.91,"end":6303.896,"text":"委员在审查法案那审查法案到最后要把决定权交给谁那这个主管机关就要负责任那同样的在行政部门里面也是我们在立法院里面长官做了决定那长官要负责所以它背后隐瞒是当代法律的思维"},{"start":6305.058,"end":6332.343,"text":"自我決定主義誰做的決定那個人就要負責所以飲料業者他要賣飲料他來決定我要用什麼樣的包裝容器材質是不是環保大小是什麼這都是飲料業者下訂單再交給容器製造業者來製造所以如果要繳回收清除處理費講白話就是誰做決定誰要負責那自然就是飲料"},{"start":6333.444,"end":6361.467,"text":"业者要负责他要缴回收清除处理费所以第二段在大法官的理由书他接着讲说理由书接着说容器商品制造业也就是饮料业者实为该等容器成为因回收废弃物质关键业者及主要噪音者这句话大家经常使用电脑你可以去查司法院的网站有没有出现过关键业者及主要噪音者这几个字"},{"start":6362.352,"end":6387.392,"text":"我印象中没有我印象中没有所以这套解释有它特殊的地方它从关键业者主要招应者来找谁要负责所以这一点给我一个启发就是从因果关系的观点来思考谁要缴回收清除处理费大法官点出这个问题其实就告诉我们人权保障会不会有所欠缺我们要找关键的"},{"start":6388.57,"end":6393.276,"text":"人为什么会有这些虐童事件的发生"},{"start":6394.741,"end":6420.532,"text":"主要从因果关系来看是他的家庭照护者还是保姆还是学校幼儿园他的园长还是照护的老师所以从许多幼儿被虐待的事件我们也许可以归纳出在许多幼儿被虐待的事件当中这些因常发生在哪些环节"},{"start":6421.152,"end":6441.252,"text":"然後針對這些環節特別去加強他的監督或者是他法律上的責任所以我覺得這是一個值得我們去思考的一個角度就是談到人權保障從因果關係的觀點去處理它那這個就是我回應剛剛大家所講的整個"},{"start":6443.22,"end":6464.08,"text":"回收處理機制為什麼會有廢棄物產生這個廢棄物產生並不能只看最終製造容器的業者它可能是來自於販賣飲料業者的需求還有他的決定而產生這些可能比較難處理會污染環境的這些包裝材質"},{"start":6464.921,"end":6492.091,"text":"所以他其实是从供应链的观点来思考问题所以我在这里特别谈到在我们环境法上有很多责任的原则污染负担政府负担扩大生产者责任企业社会责任等等所以大王解释的理由书里面提到的关键业者及主要噪音者其实跟供应链的观点perspective of supply chain从因果影响力的切入其实是很值得注意的可是从我们的宪法法院来看到目前为止没有得到学术界普遍的重视"},{"start":6493.553,"end":6521.346,"text":"所以简而言之我们从788号解释呼应外国学者所讲的供应链观点其实在谈的是什么人权保障可以从供应链还有因果关系的角度来加以观察这个是另外一个哈佛大学法学院教授的观点我就时间关系不再去提它了接着我们来看为什么公务机关公务员要去探讨人权问题"},{"start":6524.349,"end":6549.443,"text":"這裡談到在國際人權許多公約跟宣言裡面有談到它的目的是使政府還有不同社群都能夠參與政策形成過程資源可以妥適分配運用確保市政目標可以實現落實人權保障在聯合國人權事務高級專員辦事處裡面鼓勵各會員國制定國家人權行動計畫提供制定時的指導"},{"start":6550.697,"end":6574.833,"text":"所以我們目前被趕出聯合國不是聯合國的成員可是我們為了要呼應說聯合國的許多人權保障的訴求我們也希望能夠跟上國際人權保障的一個潮流所以我們就也配合公布國家人權行動計畫手冊到目前為止包括了英國 澳洲 芬蘭等等很多國家都提出他們的國家人權行動計畫"},{"start":6576.809,"end":6592.369,"text":"那接著國家人權行動計畫的目的是什麼呢這裡就談到我們從施行公民與政治權利國際公約還有經濟社會文化權利國際公約簡稱兩公約啦也就是公正公約還有金色文公約兩者簡稱兩公約"},{"start":6595.413,"end":6606.878,"text":"許多機關都依兩公約還有施行法的規定落實人權保障義務但過去沒有擬定國家人權行動計畫缺乏整體政策的指導綱領所以後來才在近幾年從2018重複人權資訊委員會在2020年提出一個決議說要"},{"start":6615.529,"end":6634.314,"text":"提出國家人權行動計畫那就參著這些聯合國鼓勵制定的一個思潮還有國內外人權學者積極倡議我們從2018年7月就總統府指示法務部進行演繹制定國家人權行動計畫的歷程這是比較晚近的發展所以我們可以看到從2021到2024去年剛結束"},{"start":6637.395,"end":6653.422,"text":"在我們中成國家發展計畫當中以四年作為整理發展目標還有重要策略綱領裡面就納入了包括了這四大政策主軸居住正義 兒少 老人 婦女等等所以我們講人權保障我剛才講了"},{"start":6654.002,"end":6670.098,"text":"重点也许不是只有在了解这些国际人权公约的内容文本怎么写还有国际法院这当然很重要可是在我们目前国际参与受到限制的情况之下我们可能更重要是如何在内国透过法律跟政策来加以落实"},{"start":6671.299,"end":6683.828,"text":"所以各個施政計畫的目標或許有所不同但都能夠帶來人權實現的結果促進人權保障創造民眾福祉的政策目標大家或許會覺得說我們沒有辦法參加許多國際組織包括聯合國"},{"start":6688.892,"end":6703.783,"text":"我們在內國做了這麼多的努力有成果那人家也不見得看得到那這樣有什麼意義呢至少我們自己感受得到在推動人權保障跟過去有什麼樣的不同而且坦白說"},{"start":6704.864,"end":6720.882,"text":"到目前為止我相信人權保障是跨黨派都認為重要的一個目標不管是目前的執政黨或是反對黨包括國民黨 民眾黨我想沒有人會反對人權保障的目標只是他的做法"},{"start":6722.168,"end":6733.507,"text":"在實踐上法律跟政策怎麼設計也許有不同的想法但以人權保障作為國家總體施政的目標我想是沒有人會反對的那這個"},{"start":6736.618,"end":6756.437,"text":"成果也許大家比較少有實際的經驗去年11月還是12月我剛好到韓國成軍館大學參加一場研討會那場研討會除了亞洲的學者之外也有來自歐美的學者在我簡報完之後有個美國學者跟我換名片"},{"start":6757.967,"end":6781.186,"text":"他当然对我的报告内容有些兴趣当然那一场报告我并不是在讲台湾的人权问题但他知道我来自台湾就跟我换了名片那就聊着聊着他说他知道我们台湾因为没有办法参与联合国跟许多国际组织但是我们透过内国法的方式走了一条很特别的路而且我们有很多成果那就他了解这些都是很不错的"},{"start":6782.807,"end":6801.602,"text":"頓時感到好感動 好感動我們政府做的事情從馬政府到蔡總統到現在這個施政關切人權的主軸在國際上是被肯定的所以無形當中也會提升我們國家還有人民在國外的一個形象"},{"start":6802.322,"end":6827.997,"text":"这个当然是对于我们推展外交或者经贸活动都有帮助的所以这是我自己切身的感受以前很少有这种机会听到外国学者会关心台湾的人权问题那个美国的学者让我印象深刻在这里跟大家做这样的简单分享思考处理人权问题我也觉得应该要有时间跟空间这两个面向作为基本观点"},{"start":6828.917,"end":6855.681,"text":"在我們一般談到人權的時候都會延續這樣的脈絡來做介紹所謂第一代人權重視的就是生存權還有財產的保障比較基本的到了第二代的人權就會強調經濟社會文化包括勞動者的人權或者是說文化社會性質的權利什麼叫做文化的權利大家也許會想說文化有什麼好特別去說的嗎"},{"start":6856.684,"end":6879.038,"text":"文化層面的人權包括我們這幾年政府在推的什麼呢原住民文化的保護所以我們有很多的母語電視台或廣播電台所以包括客語電視台或者是台語或者是原名台有幾次我在我們學校面試原住民同學他申請入學的時候"},{"start":6879.952,"end":6907.161,"text":"我都會問說那你有看過原民台嗎因為原住民是有另外一個入學優惠條件的一個入學的途徑結果我問了幾次有些原住民同學自己都沒有看原民台我都跟他講說我有看過原民台什麼節目還滿有趣的你自己要以原住民身分來申請入學沒有注意所以這一點是可以注意到說我們對於族群文化"},{"start":6908.28,"end":6920.285,"text":"注意到少数族群他们文化的一个保护那文化人权还有什么我刚才讲说这并不是距离我们太过遥远的大家也许会去过两厅院看一些表演"},{"start":6923.513,"end":6943.88,"text":"你有没有看过两厅院有些位置他特别保留给身障同胞他可以坐轮椅来欣赏表演的这个也是以前没有所以我们讲的文化人权我们也注意到少数有特殊需求的民众他们也同样享有文化生活的权利这个其实就是一个很大的进步"},{"start":6946.192,"end":6974.617,"text":"讲到时间跟空间面向我再来讲空间面向时间面向等一下再举个例子空间面向我们人其实就是空间的一个动物我们在不同空间有不同的生活形态的需求所以我们可以从我们所身处的不同空间来思考说在这个地方有没有人权保障不足而可以改善的地方"},{"start":6976.243,"end":6997.241,"text":"無障礙設施這個是大家最清楚的所以我們可以看到搭乘捷運或者是到一些公共場所它有無障礙設施我舉兩個例子讓大家想一想我們在講人權保障重點不在於它的文本而是在於它的實踐在搭公車的時候你們看到公車也會畫一個輪椅的專用區"},{"start":7000.174,"end":7020.727,"text":"那我要问大家你有没有看过哪个使用轮椅的民众在搭公车坐在那个轮椅专用区然后他的轮椅被固定在那里他可以坐在那个轮椅专用区上就是他是使用轮椅然后他上公车公车不是有画一个轮椅的身上人是专用区吗你有看过那个区域被使用过吗"},{"start":7022.21,"end":7047.89,"text":"有 佩服 我沒看過我沒看過 那可能是只有少數為什麼我點這個例子呢在我剛到博克萊念書的時候也有發生過幾次讓我印象深刻的經驗那時候我剛去就很緊張 第一次到美國三幾歲 沒有去過美國家裡環境的關係就只能靠獎學金到美國的時候"},{"start":7048.888,"end":7059.657,"text":"我要下公车那个司机是个黑人女士他就瞪着我我拿着我的学生证我都已经感应了可以下车了可是他就是不开门他就是看着我"},{"start":7060.99,"end":7079.443,"text":"然后我也不晓得他到底要干嘛他就说smile smile就要我微笑那我知道微笑然后谢谢他原来他看得出来我很紧张那美国加州相对是比较友善因为族群都有各种族群都有然后他就"},{"start":7080.856,"end":7095.075,"text":"传递一个讯息在美国你要轻松一点自在一点保持微笑微笑谢谢他Have a nice day祝他一个快乐的一天他就让我下车了这是一个印象还有什么印象跟公车有关呢"},{"start":7096.448,"end":7112.75,"text":"就是美国也有身障人士他要搭公车搭公车他一样司机要停下来把延伸的板子伸出去司机要协助轮椅的民众让他上公车把他固定好之后车子再开前后大概要花5分钟"},{"start":7114.195,"end":7143.051,"text":"所以為什麼要舉這個例子呢我們公車上面有使用輪椅的這樣的設計但是也要司機願意來協助身障同胞否則你光有硬體沒有這樣的職場的訓練司機沒有這樣的人權意識那你光是那個輪椅使用區沒有意義再結合一開始我給大家看的那張照片為什麼我會說其實使用率還是偏低"},{"start":7143.971,"end":7151.351,"text":"因为身障人士除非他有家人的协助否则他光要到公车站牌你想他多困难"},{"start":7152.768,"end":7180.128,"text":"使用輪椅到公車站牌那可能要經過顛簸不平的路面跟摩托車搶到那騎樓也不見得這麼通暢所以並不容易的所以有時候我剛才講從空間的角度我們不是只看特定的公車那個伸張輪椅使用的區域而已還有從它整個要到公車站牌的過程來思考這要經過多少不同的空間"},{"start":7181.269,"end":7190.994,"text":"這是我要舉的一個例子這是從空間的面向來看從文化的面向或者我們講人權的面向還有哪些跟空間有關係呢"},{"start":7193.749,"end":7217.427,"text":"也是一样2023年我到日本去演讲其实因为我的老师也受邀请他演讲完后我演讲也是蛮大的一个荣耀我演讲完之后隔一两天我记得日本的学者就安排我美国的指导教授跟我去参观日本的最高法院日本最高法院相当于我们的宪法法院"},{"start":7218.652,"end":7247.868,"text":"那在參觀他們日本的最高法院的時候我看到他們的法庭也有一個區域那地毯畫了一個輪椅的符號那我就跟他們負責解說的人確認這是不是指身障人士也可以出庭他說沒有錯使用接近司法的權利是也要考慮到身障人士的權利不管他是以原告或者是證人的身分來出庭"},{"start":7248.428,"end":7264.52,"text":"都要考慮到他們的便利性所以在日本的最高法庭地上有特別保留給身障人士使用的使用輪椅的一個區域這就是我所講的從空間的角度來思考人權問題到了隔一年也就是去年"},{"start":7267.359,"end":7285.854,"text":"应该说前年底那是去前年暑假我去日本前年底我一样邀日本学者还有我的指导教授来台湾演讲对等互惠这也是一种礼遇我就安排我的指导教授跟日本的这位学者去我们的司法院宪法法庭参观"},{"start":7287.199,"end":7308.353,"text":"那我就开始紧张了我问人家问题人家就问我你们台湾的宪法法庭有没有留给身障人士使用的位置结果我拼命在找地上都没有任何话论语的符号我就先用中文问一下我们的同仁说那有没有身障人士要出庭的时候我们有做什么设备的安排"},{"start":7309.613,"end":7335.214,"text":"還好我們司法院有我們司法院負責接待的很多人說有然後就把這些特別設計的椅子設備就搬出來了然後就藉這個機會做宣導應該說宣揚我就跟我的指導教授還有日本的學者說台灣也很重視身障人士接近使用司法的權利讓他們也有一些相關的設備我們的司法院同仁也準備出來"},{"start":7336.294,"end":7360.187,"text":"所以我們要不要交流我們要國際交流才會知道說人家做到什麼程度我們有沒有什麼不足這是第二個我剛才講說從空間的面向來做思考我就要請大家看一看我們這是立法院開大會的場所我們大會裡面有沒有身障人士可以使用的區域或設備"},{"start":7362.113,"end":7387.785,"text":"那会不会开大会的时候委员我记得以前是有身障的委员那他们也许因为有专人照护比较没有问题可是开大会不见得只有委员可能也有其他人会出席那有没有考虑到身障者应该也有我想应该是有所以这一点我们可以想一想从空间的角度来思考人权保障有没有什么可以再改善的地方"},{"start":7389.093,"end":7417.413,"text":"第三代人权是从个人权走向集体人权也就是人权的观念以往是停留在以个人作为人权的主体但走到第三代人权差不多是20世纪下半叶21世纪初我们发现说有些人权他必须以群体的概念才能够来提出主张诉求的我以前也不晓得在2015年10年前也是因为日本学者邀请他跟我们台湾几个学者组成一个"},{"start":7418.753,"end":7434.906,"text":"研究 一个研究计划这个研究计划是有关高山土地所有权空洞化的问题高山所有权土地空洞化为什么日本学者会提出这个问题呢因为大家知道日本少子化很严重"},{"start":7436.191,"end":7464.679,"text":"偏遠的地區在高山的土地到最後因為年輕人到都市工作加上少子化可能土地本來是有人在耕種的最後就沒落沒有人使用土地光有蜀國有權但逐漸空洞化日本為什麼要特別研究這個問題因為他們並不是說土地經過多少年沒有使用到最後沒有人繼承土地在台灣沒有人繼承會怎麼樣"},{"start":7466.499,"end":7494.455,"text":"最后变成国有了日本没有这条法律所以他们的土地是没有人继承那找不到继承是谁也不能收归国有所以他们会面临光有土地所有权人找不到所有权在哪里他的后代子孙也找不到所以他们有这个问题所以他们就在设想说台湾会不会也有这个问题南韩会不会有这个问题所以他们就组了一个跨国的研究计划的小组结果来到台湾发现台湾问题跟我们"},{"start":7495.58,"end":7521.44,"text":"土地没有人继承若干年之后就变成国有土地跟日本的问题不一样而且我们还有一个比较特别的是我们有很多原住民所以我们在高山地区有很多原住民族的传统领域这个在日本没有日本爱奴人的人数很少所以我们高山土地很多是在原住民的传统领域所以面临到的问题跟日本不太一样"},{"start":7522.939,"end":7538.351,"text":"那日本学者也因此发现说他们原本设定的研究方向要有些调整那我为什么会讲到这个呢那时候跟日本学者做天然调查他们就真的很台语讲很精准很精准就是很仔细很认真"},{"start":7539.775,"end":7557.032,"text":"我们到乌莱就是新北市乌莱是整个新北市唯一一个原住民原乡的地方我们到乌莱然后跟原住民的一些部落的长老进一些交流对话我这是孤陋寡闻我那时候才知道在传统原住民文化当中"},{"start":7557.973,"end":7573.074,"text":"他們的財產是共有制並不是個人私有制所以在傳統原住民部落社會當中他們的財產如何分配 如何利用要尊重部落的文化 戒律或是長老的意見"},{"start":7575.386,"end":7599.493,"text":"这样的行使就带有集体人权的概念它是部落共有而不是个人所有所以才会发现说其实我们讲人权的概念讲集体人权在台湾最典型的就是原住民他传统的文化还有传统的领域还有他的财产权会跟我们当代法律的一些以个人作为主体的权利法律有些冲突"},{"start":7600.918,"end":7618.412,"text":"集体人权还包括集体防卫权所以这些问题是第三代人权所面临的比较困难的一些课题所以刚才讲时间就从他的眼镜的面向基本上来看当然也可以从我们每天的生活来思考说我们在不同的"},{"start":7619.321,"end":7633.433,"text":"早上 中午 晚上不同的民众年龄他在不同的场所会碰到的人权问题有什么差别讲到文本的部分这是要请大家一定要晓得的国际人权宪章基本上包括了"},{"start":7634.854,"end":7650.062,"text":"二次大戰結束初期的世界人權宣言還有公民與政治權利國際公約還有經濟社會文化權利國際公約這就是簡稱兩公約這邊的介紹有些是基本觀念我就不再贅述了談到國際人權體制的四個層次"},{"start":7652.197,"end":7673.892,"text":"这是一定要晓得从联合国宪章到世界人权宣言还有两公约因为我们把它叫做两人权公约另外就是特定领域的人权公约那这个你不用特别背它了因为既然也不是考试大家就知道就可以了那会有疑问的是说大家可能会觉得现在恶务冲突"},{"start":7674.853,"end":7699.88,"text":"以規則為基礎的世界秩序幾乎已經崩解了我們在講聯合國憲章這些國際政治公約還有意義還有必要有價值嗎我很難給一個最終的結論因為從目前來看確實是如此國際秩序重組這些國際社會公約種種的規則好像受到很大的挑戰"},{"start":7702.967,"end":7731.22,"text":"但是並沒有被完全的放棄你會看到說光是以巴衝突以色列跟加薩走廊這些巴勒斯坦的衝突聯合國還是有出若干的力量來給予人道的救援那只是說可能它的成效被打了很大的折扣因為很多國家不遵守這些國際社會的人權公約那這當然是我覺得是一個"},{"start":7732.877,"end":7753.426,"text":"负面的发展但我们也期待说至少有一个理想有一个目标要往正向的角度去突破的回到过去我们可以看到二次世界大战结束初期其实本来世界是有这样的一个理念要进步把人权保障国际化所以有这一类人权公约的规定"},{"start":7755.561,"end":7772.167,"text":"詳細的內容我就不再仔細去談它有各條文的規定我們看公正公約就是公民與政治權利國際公約它在1966年聯合國大會通過1976年生效距今也大概快60年了至少超過半世紀"},{"start":7776.494,"end":7802.844,"text":"裡面它有哪些內容以公正公約來看它跟等一下要提到的金色文公約很類似談到了人民自決權一般性規定 具體權利的內容公約的監督機制 公約的解釋簽署批准跟交存公正公約的內容大家可以稍微瀏覽一下這個應該是在獎勵的第30頁我一開始有跟大家提到"},{"start":7803.891,"end":7831.785,"text":"我們憲法雖然有關人權基本權利的相關條款可是跟國際人權一些公約來比仍然有些不同這也正是我們今天為什麼要去了解國際人權公約的目的知道有什麼不同然後進一步來思考說我們要不要修憲還是透過釋憲的方式來強化這些我們原本憲法條文沒有規定到的人權保障面向"},{"start":7832.844,"end":7858.591,"text":"好像前天還是昨天立法院不是成立了修憲委員會應該是昨天開完選了五個委員然後就解散了我記得就在這裡我不曉得他們會不會想到說我們要來修修基本人權條款但修憲難度很高那個門檻的問題我就不再多花時間去談了可是我們來看兩公約的內容特別以公正公約來看禁止奴隸與強制勞動"},{"start":7861.041,"end":7889.441,"text":"我們憲法有關人權的規定沒有明白提到這一條我們也都應該會贊同禁止把人作為奴隸甚至強制人不管是什麼樣的人去從事勞動工作禁止勞動這個條文重不重要當然重要以前大家可能會覺得這有什麼好說的可是你想想"},{"start":7890.424,"end":7908.588,"text":"不是有KK園區嗎中南半島在緬甸還是寮國這些有些台灣民眾可能被詐騙集團騙了人到那邊被強制勞動從事詐騙工作甚至有可能"},{"start":7910.1,"end":7922.376,"text":"有被強摘器官的風險所以認識國際公約甚至參與國際組織透過多邊或雙邊的合作我們才有辦法去保障國人能夠"},{"start":7924.011,"end":7944.272,"text":"在萬一不幸他被詐騙騙到這一類園區成為奴隸被強制勞動之後我們有辦法透過雙邊或多邊的這種合作把他營救回來所以國際關係仍然是很重要的基礎那我們就會發現說如果我們願意去遵守國際公約所強調的這一個規定"},{"start":7948.052,"end":7972.761,"text":"那表示什麼 其他國家繼續平等互惠我們比較有立場來取得合作的基礎另外一個禁止非法驅逐外國人這個我們憲法條文也沒有規定所以我們以前可能也不會想到說那外國人驅逐有什麼問題可是如果我們沒有法律作為依據驅逐的外國人這其實也是違反國際人權的基本規範"},{"start":7975.103,"end":7982.702,"text":"那幾年前甚至最近偶爾也會發生有些外國的演藝人士他來台灣表演"},{"start":7983.868,"end":8007.248,"text":"他怎么进来的 他拿观光签证进来表演就被查到了我们的移民署可能就会把他强制出境因为他是非法在台湾从事表演活动跟他入台的理由观光并不符合所以我们就会发现说如果我们不了解这个规定"},{"start":8008.92,"end":8036.162,"text":"我們可能就無法去了解到國際社會對於外國人人權的保障也逐漸加以重視我們也希望我們哪一天到國外的時候不會被非法驅逐所以這個是國際人權公約當中所講的公正公約一個具體的規定另外對家庭的保護 兒童的權利這個在我們憲法本文裡面也沒有所以如果今天要談到修憲基本人權條款"},{"start":8037.861,"end":8053.669,"text":"不見得都只能仰賴釋憲或我們目前的憲法訴訟來詮釋它的內容甚至我們有必要直接針對基本人權條款參考這些國際人權公約把它納入修憲的一個文本當中"},{"start":8054.946,"end":8076.754,"text":"當然修憲的門檻這是一個問題要先能夠突破所以如果能夠把像公正公約所談到的這些具體內容變成我們修憲的內容其實我們可以更有自信到國際社會跟其他國家交流的時候說我們對於人權的保障已經提升到怎麼樣的程度了另外要請大家注意通常對於人權保障會成立一些專門的組織像是人權事務委員會有專門的組織來推動這些事務"},{"start":8082.11,"end":8097.663,"text":"金色文公約有些也跟前面的公知公約很類似有人民自決權 一般性規定 具體權利內容等等在金色文公約當中你可以看到它比較偏重是經濟 社會跟文化"},{"start":8098.735,"end":8125.804,"text":"那这里面有几个条文也是我们宪法本文里面没有提到的比如说工作条件我们宪法只有提到保障人没有工作自由那工作自由是不是包含工作条件我们后来透过解释的方式做了扩张那包括了劳动基本权还有相当生活水准当然什么叫相当生活水准还有待讨论第12条是我想强调的身体与心理健康的权利我们宪法有没有提到这个没有"},{"start":8128.24,"end":8132.517,"text":"我們大法官解釋有沒有提到健康權有"},{"start":8134.266,"end":8158.776,"text":"在应该是785号的解释有提报健康权蛮晚的但宪法的本文没有提到健康权如果从金色文公约来看健康权它不是只有身体的健康还包括心理的健康所以很多年前我在讲这些人权公约的时候特别是在我们公务人员刚考上的基础训练我都会跟他们提到说我们应该期待"},{"start":8159.736,"end":8183.583,"text":"我們國會能夠修法把公務員有請心理假的權利明白規定在法律裡面我本來也對於這種心理健康權利還有心理假並不太認識也差不多是在三四年前我們台北大學有學生權益委員會學生提案說"},{"start":8185.598,"end":8197.095,"text":"學生現在課業壓力很大每個學期除了試駕並駕之外他們希望能夠爭取到也可以請心理駕一個學期也許有四小時到六小時的心理駕"},{"start":8198.423,"end":8217.784,"text":"在场当然学生一定支持参与的老师也都支持说学生确实有很多现代社会所产生的一些压力我们也赞同学生应该可以请心理假然后就有些老师说老师可不可以请心理假老师也会有疲累的时候"},{"start":8218.665,"end":8239.562,"text":"那我们老师通常就是可能比较弹性虽然没有心理架的名称但是我们也可以去以别的名目来请假但是公务员有没有呢以前是没有所以我在刚才讲说在许多文官训练的课程我都说公务员应该要有心理架我赞同公务员要有心理架然后一开始的时候就有很多的公务员学员就掌声鼓励"},{"start":8240.43,"end":8258.447,"text":"要有心理假我相信大家也認為應該可以請心理假特別是在立法院會期快結束之前最好可以心理假多一點那時候是壓力最大的時候但我不敢講因為那時候是需要人力的時間點講了很多年總算今年"},{"start":8260.014,"end":8288.683,"text":"我也不曉得是立法委員應該沒有人去參加我的課總算他們也聽到呼籲了政府增列你增列公務員身心調試假所以在今年3月行政院人事行政總處處長當時有說規劃在7天試假內挪3天當身心調試假不僅有薪水 不僅想考記也不用證明現在我不曉得考試院到底訂定了沒有因為他是講說考試院要會同行政院訂定"},{"start":8289.915,"end":8317.397,"text":"那我觉得是有点违德不足不应该是在原本的七天释迦挪三天应该是另外加进来如果是在原本的七天里面那是把我的释迦拿来作为圣心调释迦用那释迦归释迦跟圣心调释是不一样的意义所以大家觉得重不重要你们是最贴近立委的人没关系 谢谢谢谢你的好意"},{"start":8320.513,"end":8337.3,"text":"好 謝謝所以我相信各位同仁我很感動有人願意主動幫我加水我以前 謝謝我相信大家都有身心調適的需要我們很多人都還在三明治當中上有高堂老母 下有七小"},{"start":8338.36,"end":8359.013,"text":"所以我觉得这要跟委员反映不要七天市价里面挪三天身心调市价是要另外算的想办法跟委员说服 沟通那这是我今天为大家上国际人权这门课程想要给大家最直接的一个讯息就是要跟委员反映"},{"start":8360.134,"end":8379.338,"text":"要跟委員反映 有沒有支持的應該都是掌聲通過 對不對謝謝各位跟委員反映因為這真的是要符合國際人權公約理由都幫他找出來了身體與心理健康的權利我猜沒有委員會反對的最容易過的 然後大家都有成績好 謝謝"},{"start":8383.88,"end":8404.574,"text":"我們再來往底下看所以看國際人權公約有沒有價值有必要甚至不是只有這些公約的規定還有一些它的報告還有別的國家的做法我們借重其他國家的經驗可以來做一個反省的我國參與兩公約其實是有一段歷程從2009年當時是由立法院審議通過總統批准後來在2009年送到聯合國聯合國沒辦法"},{"start":8414.681,"end":8418.424,"text":"舊的觀念說一意中為理由把它退回了所以這是在馬總統任內"},{"start":8421.209,"end":8446.25,"text":"我覺得這是一個突破至少我們實踐追求兩公約的精神後來我們雖然被聯合國民訴訟以一中為理由退回兩公約在我國體系上的定位跟效率還是有必要所以後來就採取用法律名利的方式這個是要請大家知道的我們有兩公約施行法我相信在座同仁都知道兩公約施行法是立法院三讀通過總統公布的法律所以它是法律"},{"start":8447.711,"end":8475.272,"text":"所以我們依據兩公約施行法有法律上的權利來跟政府提出各種主張國家包括行政立法司法也要加以實踐兩公約施行法謝謝兩公約施行法的內容是什麼呢這一點請大家注意這在簡報的應該是36頁在第二條裡面明定兩公約所揭示保障人權的規定具有國內法的效力"},{"start":8480.27,"end":8509,"text":"具有国内法的效力所以两公约不是天高皇帝远国际公约我们纵使没有加入但我们现在已经把两公约实行法明定了它是具有内国法的效力所以拘束了行政立法司法各个机关都要遵循两公约包括中央跟地方另外在第五条两公约实行法提到各级政府机关应确实依现行法令规定业务执掌负责筹划推动执行两公约规定事项那彼此要协调"},{"start":8510.185,"end":8531.293,"text":"另外第六條也是重要的我們在實踐公約人權公約的做法跟一般法律不太一樣是我們建立了人權報告制度藉由各個機關彙整的人權報告我們來審視有什麼地方要改進的邀請國內外的人權專家來審視甚至要到國會來進行報告這是重要的一個規定"},{"start":8532.991,"end":8559.544,"text":"甚至要依財政狀況優先編列逐步實施這個細節我就不再多談了接下來我們要談到是個別的一些人權公約像簡稱CEDAW就是消除對婦女一切形式歧視公約也很重要我要請大家注意的是在這幾年我們從新聞媒體看到一些不管是違反性評的或者是所謂的MeToo事件我們是到4點半還是4點20"},{"start":8566.984,"end":8585.499,"text":"開會了 嚇我一跳 聽到鐘聲我想說我還有幾個公約沒有講不過也好啦提醒我還有七分鐘左右的時間消除對婦女切心是其實公約要注意什麼呢我要請在座的同仁一起關注我們不能有性別刻板印象跟偏見"},{"start":8586.826,"end":8612.002,"text":"所以以前在很多公家機關這個要接待訪客的時候都要婦女同仁去準備茶水做接待這其實是帶有傳統性別刻板印象的現在不可以這麼做所以如果你是我們立法院裡面的單位的主管長官你在分派工作的時候可能就要小心不能流於性別刻板印象跟偏見"},{"start":8614.383,"end":8636.336,"text":"當然也不能有各種歧視性別的歧視這個就會反映在包括我們錄取的人數甚至很多機關它的委員的比例有沒有符合性別比例這個在很多政府機關裡面是嚴格要求包括我們行政院的性評處也很積極在推動這類的工作"},{"start":8638.82,"end":8656.445,"text":"接著是兒童權利公約這幾年我都覺得我們還有不足就是兒童是相對非常非常弱勢特別是學齡前的兒童那他可能在原生家庭或者在保母又有人會受到虐待他不敢講他也不知道自己被虐待所以這個問題從之前那個凱凱案就發現說"},{"start":8660.836,"end":8679.761,"text":"我們行政院成立了兒童及少年福利權益推動小組來督導這個恐怕還不足各個地方政府雖然也有做但總是有受到虐待的兒童事件不斷的發生所以我剛才才會講說從因果關係的角度來看包括社福機構還有保姆"},{"start":8680.862,"end":8692.159,"text":"這些恐怕要多花一點心思去看怎麼樣透過法令來加強管理了包括一些幼兒園 小學等等"},{"start":8694.229,"end":8712.176,"text":"兒童權利公約這裡要留意的是指未滿18歲都可以稱為兒童這跟我們國內的少年福利法少年法跟少年法不太一樣未滿18歲都是兒童我們目前18歲是成年未滿18歲都可以稱為兒童"},{"start":8715.187,"end":8741.61,"text":"講到這裡印象很深刻是大家就會想到周子瑜Twice的團體裡面有一個我們台灣的成員周子瑜在當時不是有一年農曆年快過年的時候被迫在電視前唸了一個聲明稿披頭散髮很憔悴他的經紀公司要他唸那個聲明稿當時大家看了都愚心不忍"},{"start":8742.494,"end":8747.787,"text":"我也很難過 我就把兒童權利公約的英文"},{"start":8748.763,"end":8775.978,"text":"贴在我韩国当时我在美国念书一个很好的韩国律师朋友的脸书上因为他跟我很好那他是韩国的律师我贴这个儿童权利公约的英文版就是要让他知道说你们韩国的经纪公司虐待我们的周子瑜他还未满18岁是儿童然后我这个韩国的这个律师朋友他是韩国最好大学首尔大学毕业在韩国最好的事务所工作他给我按了一个赞"},{"start":8776.758,"end":8796.085,"text":"表示他也赞同所以现在大家就知道说什么叫儿童未满18岁都叫儿童那这个如果你知道你家未满18岁的青少年子女知道那后面会怎么样我就不知道了他一定会说我是儿童所以我想要什么样的权利"},{"start":8797.284,"end":8815.007,"text":"但真的未滿18歲就是兒童嗎我看現在小學大概差不多是五六年級他的想法就已經很接近大人了因為現在資訊非常多所以也是只能說國際上對兒童的年齡界定是很寬未滿18歲都叫兒童可是現實上"},{"start":8815.768,"end":8835.596,"text":"我們看到很多小學高年級他都已經跟成人沒有什麼太大差別了我們可能要更重視對於這些兒童就是年齡介於青少年這一段的兒童他們的一個教育我覺得這個問題很大凱凱在這邊我就貼出來了我們可以看到什麼呢"},{"start":8836.731,"end":8852.198,"text":"台湾儿童保护系统这是有些评论分散在不同机构包括社福 警政检调导致各单位权责不明那我们就可以看看英国还有说儿童专员的制度那也有建议说要设立独立的儿童权利专责机构"},{"start":8853.277,"end":8871.786,"text":"所以为什么我要给大家看这个问题呢因为走到最后用刑法来处理都已经是太后端的一个处理方式了身心障碍者确立公约呢也一样他有推动小组身事间关系我之后不再多谈了消除一些种族歧视公约看起来只能给大家一些"},{"start":8872.841,"end":8874.602,"text":"也应该要避免发生这样的歧视效果了"},{"start":8903.032,"end":8931.662,"text":"好 那其他還有什麼資訊呢大概在我們法務部的人權專區都可以找得到另外推動人權保障的重要組織我是要請大家注意在還沒有修憲被廢掉之前因為這有不同的看法我們就要注意監察院的國家人權委會其實提供蠻多的例子跟說明的所以如果大家有興趣可以看看這是以前我擷取下來他給兒童權利必修課這個作為家長的恐怕都應該有所了解"},{"start":8933.422,"end":8951.132,"text":"另外就是在事情報告的部分我就不再多談一些案例只好略掉了包括原住民權利的部分我在差不多三年前應該是兩三年前不太記得了當時到芬蘭開會"},{"start":8953.174,"end":8980.235,"text":"芬兰赫尔辛基是他们的车站里面他们升起了乌克兰的国旗表示他们支持乌克兰那是从海边看到芬兰为什么要举芬兰呢芬兰曾经连续六年全球票选人权保障最好的一个国家所以我们还有很多地方可以努力所以我后来就想到说在日本有个作家叫做村上春树他曾经讲过我们都是在这个世界不完美的世界当中不完美的人"},{"start":8981.244,"end":8997.009,"text":"我們都是在這個不完美世界上不完美的人那作為公務員我們能夠做的也許就是努力做些什麼讓自己跟這個世界少一些遺憾所以我希望今天跟大家分享這個人權課程最後以此作為一個結束"},{"start":8997.789,"end":9021.997,"text":"希望大家能夠有不同的觀點然後因為大家跟委員很接近把你的觀察事實的跟委員做一些反應我相信我們還是可以讓這個世界少一些遺憾的未來的路希望我們大家一起共同努力再次感謝各位同仁的參與謝謝大家 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八號事項一宣讀本會第十一屆第三會期第二十五次會議議事錄決定確定決定事項一審定本院第十一屆第三會期第二十六次會議議事程八號事項執行事項一國民黨黨團各委員如均提案"},{"start":1971.056,"end":1998.707,"text":"增列第八案至第二十三案暫緩立案 其餘經照議程草案及增列報告事項通過 行政院長提出財美關稅談判之進程方針原則及臺灣產業可能遭受之衝擊影響評估專案報告並被執行八月二十五日行政院長 主席長 財政部部長及相關部會首長列起報告一百四十四年度章政府總預算最佳預算案編制經過並被執行八月二十六日上午主席宣告"},{"start":1999.778,"end":2022.679,"text":"一 黨團想結論決定 行政院如於8月21日進行事宜前將丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案送至立法院即增列納入8月22日星期五院會報告事項並於8月29日星期二下午進行丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案編制經過報告並被質詢"},{"start":2025.001,"end":2027.644,"text":"請問有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有的話 我們依次度確定 請宣讀報告事項及執行事項"},{"start":2048.922,"end":2068.814,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期第二十七次會議一時程草案時間中華民國一百一十四年八月二十九日星期五上午九時直下五六時地點本院議場 報告事項一 宣讀本院第十一屆第三會期第二十六次會議議事錄二至三委員吳麗華等你局學校衛生法大學法交交易集團化委員會審查四委員翁曉琳等你局貨物稅條例交交財政委員會審查"},{"start":2069.915,"end":2085.663,"text":"五 委員陣陣前等你局合資反應器設施管制法交交易局文化委員會審查六 委員蘇清泉等你局家庭暴力防治法交社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩委員會審查七至十六 委員謝一鳳等你廢職行政院農業委員會農業金融局組織條例廢職經濟部標準檢驗局組織條例廢職經濟部國際貿易局組織條例廢職行政院農業委員會漁業署組織條例廢職行政院農業委員會動植物防疫檢疫局所屬個分局組織通則廢職行政院農業"},{"start":2099.309,"end":2115.994,"text":"非執行捷運農業委員會組織條例 非執行捷運農業委員會農糧署各分署組織通則 非執行捷運農業委員會農糧署組織條例 非執行捷運農業委員會水土保質局組織法 交由司法提法執行計量委員會審查 十七 環境部函宋財團法人一百一十五年度預算書案交由社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2118.095,"end":2140.171,"text":"十八至四零一內政部海委會農業部經濟部國防部財政部金管會央行教育部文化部司法院法務部國安會勞動部環境部衛福部中選會原民會陸委會外交部國發會中研院國科會交通部抒發部全局部含送書面資料交相關委員會四零二內政部韓委中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第五期特別預算決議事項交財政及相關委員會處理"},{"start":2141.312,"end":2169.635,"text":"國民黨黨團體陣列一至五 委員翁曉琳等女區中華民國刑法交司法及法治委員會審查 詐欺犯罪危害防治條例國家公認法交內政委員會審查 再生能源發展條例交經濟委員會審查 六委員蘇清泉等女區跟蹤騷擾防治法交內政社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查 七委員陳金輝等女區貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查 八委員李燕秀等女區索德稅法交財政委員會審查 九國民黨黨團女區財政收支劃分法交財政委員會審查"},{"start":2171.056,"end":2189.128,"text":"10至18委員羅志強等你廢止經濟部工業局組織條例廢止經濟部中央地質調查所組織條例廢止經濟部水利署水利規劃實驗所組織條例廢止經濟部水利署各河川局組織通則廢止經濟部水利署臺北水源特定區管理局組織條例廢止經濟部加工出口"},{"start":2190.089,"end":2201.666,"text":"區管理處所屬各分處組織通則 廢紙經濟部能源局組織條例 廢紙經濟部標準捷運局所屬各分局組織通則 廢紙經濟部產業園區管理局組織條例 叫司法提法之經濟良文會審查"},{"start":2203.328,"end":2228.928,"text":"十九至二十委員吳宗憲等你局公教人員保險法刑事訴訟法 叫司法及法治委員會審查二十一委員張志倫等你局公教人員保險法 叫司法及法治委員會審查二十二至二十三委員廖先強等你局跟蹤騷擾防治法 叫內政社會福利及衛生環境兩委員會審查家庭暴力防治法 叫社會福利及衛生環境司法及法治兩委員會審查民進黨黨團體整列二十四至二十五委員張雅玲等你局總統副總統選舉罷免法公職人員選舉罷免法 叫內政委員會審查"},{"start":2231.59,"end":2245.556,"text":"二十六 委員國立法等你局原住民組委員會組織法交自法及法制內政兩委員會審查二十七至二十九 委員黃階等你局住宅法交內政委員會審查中華民國刑法中華民國刑法施刑法交自法及法制委員會審查"},{"start":2247.377,"end":2271.947,"text":"30 委員王振旭等你居醫師法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查31 委員林益錦等你居立法委員行為法交社法及法治委員會審查32 委員沈博洋等你居香港澳門關係條例交內政委員會審查33 委員李博義等你居立法院醫事規則交社法及法治委員會審查34-46 委員郭國文等委員沈博洋等委員黃潔等委員郭育晴等委員張宏祿等委員張雅玲等委員林月琴等委員李博義等"},{"start":2272.547,"end":2294.125,"text":"委員吳秉瑞等 委員陳培宇等 委員蔡宜宇等 委員林益菁等 分別擬居台灣地區 大陸地區人民關係條例 交內政委員會審查四十七 刑券含金審議企業併購法 交經濟委員會審查 台灣民眾黨黨團題陣列四十八至四十九 台灣民眾黨黨團擬居環境影響評估法 交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查 公民投票法交內政委員會審查"},{"start":2295.746,"end":2321.56,"text":"議事處陣列50 本院修憲委員會函為該會推選出吳委員 仲憲 林委員 施明 莊委員 瑞雄莊委員 嘉賓 黃委員 國昌委 該會召集委員請查照案 諮詢事項宣讀完畢好那我們現在請登記委員發言第一位我們請陳委員培餘發言我們在陳委員培餘發言結束的時候截止發言登記"},{"start":2327.044,"end":2340.179,"text":"針對第十一屆第三會期第二十七次會議議程報告事項 質詢事項 建請照一新日程草案及整列報告事項通過 以上謝謝好 我們請登記第二位 請許委員與真發言"},{"start":2349.548,"end":2368.36,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第三會期第7次的會議議事日程草案出增列報告事項第31案至第46案建議暫緩列案外其餘報告事項諮詢事項均照議事日程草案及增列報告事項通過是否有當進行公決中國國民黨立法院黨團"},{"start":2374.076,"end":2387.602,"text":"好那現在我們這個報告事項其實執行事項我們已發言完畢現在進行處理先提案先處理我們先針對這個陳培宇委員的提案請問針對陳培宇委員提案有無異議有異議的話我們進行表決請清點在場人數好贊成陳培宇委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":2408.289,"end":2419.696,"text":"反對陳培宇委員提案的請舉手好"},{"start":2420.734,"end":2444.861,"text":"表決結果在場14人 贊成者5人 反對者9人那我們贊成者少數不通過那接下來我們這個處理繼續處理徐宇甄委員的提案 提案增列第31到46案暫緩列案請問對於這個徐宇甄委員的提案有異議有異議我們進行表決請清點在場人數"},{"start":2450.337,"end":2461.81,"text":"好 贊成徐譽貞委員提案的請舉手好 反對徐譽貞委員提案的請舉手"},{"start":2471.277,"end":2481.809,"text":"好表決結果在場人數15人贊成者9人反對者6人那贊成者多數通過報告事項修正通過 執行事項通過好"},{"start":2488.376,"end":2515.322,"text":"那這個報告委員會按照昨天院會通過的這個黨團協商的結論決定本週五第27次院會的議程討論事項僅列本次議程草案所列的中央政府這個丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建的特別預算案等4案那本次會議就依照上次的協商結論來進行處理那請宣讀討論事項"},{"start":2519.658,"end":2542.464,"text":"討論事項 一 中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案二 114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案三 因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例修正草案四 貨物稅條例修正草案 宣讀完畢好 現在請登記委員發言 首先請登記第一位許委員與真發言"},{"start":2553.331,"end":2570.581,"text":"本院中國國民黨黨團針對第十一屆第三會期第二十七次會議議程僅限列下保次案是否有當 今請公決好 接下來請登記第二位請我們先請議事委員代表宣讀"},{"start":2572.799,"end":2600.265,"text":"本院中國國民黨針對第11屆第三會議及第27次會議議程僅限列下表示案是否有當進行公決一 114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案二 因應國際形勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例修正草案三 中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案四 貨物稅條例修正草案 宣讀完畢好 現在請登記紀念會請陳委員培育發言"},{"start":2606.43,"end":2616.723,"text":"針對第11屆第三會期第27次會議議程討論事項 建請列下表示案是否有當進行公決 以上謝謝好 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我們有請卓院長還有環境部長麻煩再請卓院長環境部備詢"},{"start":23.263,"end":42.994,"text":"許多人好在丹納斯颱風之後許多人相當關心也很擔心就是關於廢棄的光電板網路上最多人在傳的就是光電板流出所謂的洪水的問題當然彭部長的說法我已經聽過了"},{"start":44.255,"end":58.323,"text":"但是呢按照法規來說這個光電板要在水泥地或者是呢不透水的地方來砌製那為什麼會放在這個台這個台這個農地台塘的農地那可以這樣子站製嗎"},{"start":59.523,"end":72.343,"text":"報告委員 不行的所以他在我們發現了之後呢我們有要求他要求他而且他這個就被我們罰了第二張200萬第二張 第一張多少錢 第二張多少錢第一張100 第二張200 現在已經到300了"},{"start":75.167,"end":94.358,"text":"那請問這個紅色的水現在處理的狀況已經全部處置完成了嗎因為我後來8月16號我有到縣地去看我們其實在8月十幾號的時候我們同仁就有去縣長採樣那個紅色的水那它基本上沒有任何的重金屬也沒有任何的油"},{"start":95.478,"end":120.292,"text":"我清楚這個報導您都講過講過的我都會看我要問的是說到目前為止這些紅色的水已經處理完畢了嗎因為我剛剛沒有問說它裡面有沒有什麼樣的重金屬我談的是它本來就不應該在不透水的地方去做氣質你也說已經罰了300萬了所以我的問題非常的清楚是請問這些紅水已經處置完畢了沒有"},{"start":121.092,"end":138.965,"text":"我到現場去看過已經那個光電板或是那個浮桶已經沒有在那個地方我問的是紅色的水還在不在啊都不在了那什麼時候環境部可以在這個地方拍一張照片讓給所有的民眾知道同樣一個地方紅色的水已經沒有了今天能夠做到嗎"},{"start":140.325,"end":157.652,"text":"其實我在現場我有拍我在旁邊的照片但是我覺得我去採訪我並不想要讓大家為什麼不想讓大家知道我們已經澄清了你知道你們今天在抓那個什麼AI小鳥的這個影片我並不反對因為我自己也有收到我看了之後我就說這個應該是AI的影片但是"},{"start":158.092,"end":186.705,"text":"就是因為你們在處理完看處理完畢之後並沒有跟大眾說非常清楚的說明就是比較先前的狀況後來的狀況以及你們中間裁罰了幾次所以民眾才會擔心啊所以我要問的是因為這個事情已經討論非常久了今天能不能做一個比較圖就是先前紅色水的狀況跟現在今天的情況兩者去做比較能不能我好我請我同仁來調照片看看"},{"start":187.585,"end":206.855,"text":"我希望今天可以做完因為這真的很久了你看這個新聞是什麼時候8月7號現在8月底因為我也遭遇到這種錯誤訊息跟假消息到處散佈我們也很困擾所以我今天提醒你我是站在你的角度來替大家做這個說明因為我也不想再收到這些假的訊息了"},{"start":207.395,"end":234.711,"text":"所以如果你今天就能够做出比较其实你们早就该做了你不是说你去看已经没问题没问题的那一天就要告知大众我是继续问有关光电板的处理情形从这个废弃物因为丹纳斯台风的关系单月增积到2800吨你所说的是一个月能够处理2900吨我请问丹纳斯台风到现在已经两个多月了目前完成多少吨的清运"},{"start":235.692,"end":257.291,"text":"目前大概接近八成已經剩下三成大概就是屬於那個新屋莊就原運那家公司他都放在岸邊剩一家公司對剩下一家公司剩下一家公司所以70%已經完成去清運了剩下一家公司大概將近快要到80%了他已經放在一個站置點而且符合規定的站置點我問一下我了解了我問一下目前"},{"start":258.451,"end":276.557,"text":"針對丹納斯颱風所造成的光電板之亂你們有沒有統計過總共開發多少金額開發幾間廠商 我很好奇三間廠商總共一千萬只有三間廠商那有沒有包含剛剛這個台塘的農地這個也有開發 它是算在一起的"},{"start":277.079,"end":294.147,"text":"所以他算在一起的所以就是串三張那總共罰了多少錢那家廠商總共有三個池那有兩個池是被我們開始開罰那其中有兩家他有兩個池一個是罰到兩百萬另外一個是一百 兩百 三百總共加起來是那家廠商是九百萬"},{"start":295.173,"end":322.003,"text":"900萬好我特別想要問一下你們清理跟回收光電板的計劃裡面在每年都有去編列相關的預算從111年到114年度我有一個表格可以給你看數字上面因為我們時間很有限我就不談了但我們上會期審查今年度的預算其實裡面只編了200萬當然我知道你會告訴我有編在其他的計劃當中可是我想要針對這200萬來詢問你"},{"start":324.364,"end":341.261,"text":"就是今年度的廢太陽光電模組的清除計畫是在什麼時候才決標的我們針對這兩百萬的部分你先不要跟我講其他的這兩百萬的部分是什麼時候決標的這個我不清楚因為這個是我的署他們自己在標"},{"start":342.082,"end":360.41,"text":"那我告訴你答案就是呢7月29號決標然後8月25號發的決標公告那這個公告呢是在7月15號的時候公告7月29號的時候開標而丹納斯颱風是7月5號早上的海警發布"},{"start":361.951,"end":376.949,"text":"所以我們看到這個標案這是你們自己環境部的相關的廢太陽光電板的回收資訊系統裡面寫什麼本年度委託清除廠商名單還在辦理當中請靜待相關的通知"},{"start":377.449,"end":394.46,"text":"所以在6月26号这个标案还在环境部的网站上我们去查的话他会告诉你说这个还在等待通知所以为什么清理速度那么慢不只是说当然厂商的怠慢可能是一个重点这个我不否认"},{"start":395.02,"end":413.945,"text":"但是呢你的這整個太陽能的清除處理計畫到現在才公佈絕標然後呢在6月多的時候你可以看到我們這個訊息上面來講6月多已經有編列好預算的那也沒有也沒有告訴大家有哪些廠商名單在辦理"},{"start":414.525,"end":442.29,"text":"所以這個部分我希望能夠調整跟改善包委我報告一下因為他們這些廠商13.5萬片他要去化是他們要跟那有四家的廠商其中兩家有營業他們要自己簽約自己去去化那我們呢如果他一個編號有到期例如說20年那我們可以跟能源署去申請沒有啦我講的跟你講的東西不是完全一樣的所以你不要回答我一個跟我問你的問題沒有關係的好不好"},{"start":443.73,"end":459.338,"text":"我會很願意在會後跟你討論光電板的事情但是請你就回答我問你的問題就好了我不會聽不懂你在問什麼但是我另外想要問一下這個光電板的使用年限我們一般看是25到30年對吧"},{"start":461.059,"end":483.532,"text":"20到25年那更短一些喔那我想要問啊現在整個台灣裝了幾片的光電板有這樣詳細的資料嗎我沒有特別統計大概但是我們是15GB左右大概的數字就好了我不用告訴我113不用就大概來說有幾片大概是幾百萬片吧"},{"start":484.592,"end":510.644,"text":"差不多200萬片因為我們光是在雲林台南張濱就有大概140萬片這個新聞都有報導的那總體來說可能突破200萬片那您剛剛說這個幾乎9乘9可以回收但是我看大部分的說法都是90%可以回收有10%它的回收難度非常的高請問部長是不是如此是 因為它有一部分是塑膠的然後要去定義"},{"start":511.024,"end":518.492,"text":"也就是說我們現在突破200萬片的規模在20年後它會產生200萬當然我就乘以10%的量體20萬的部分光電板它也變成是非常巨量的垃圾了"},{"start":527.341,"end":548.642,"text":"那先前我要請問接下來的雖然那時候不是你們在執政可是我們現在要裝光碟板總是要把接下來整體的規劃去做一個環境的評估嘛那我想要問的是如果10%的是量體是沒有辦法去回收的那請問一下這20萬的不能回收的部分那未來你們又打算要怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":549.543,"end":566.015,"text":"基本上我剛才說有的業者是只能做到92%有的業者是99%了而且國際的認證所以我就跟你講說我們大概就平均來講九成來說我們用一個大概率平均來講九成我也沒有虧待你我沒有說八成七成六成我們用九成來說實際上就會有10%的量體"},{"start":569.818,"end":592.37,"text":"那這個部分我想要知道的是我們裝了200萬片未來可能還會更多在20年以後它會一次性的產生大量的垃圾而且它是無法回收的狀態的時候請問我們現在是怎麼看待這些廢棄物的基本上它每一樣都可以回收只剩下不到10%那如果是10%的話目前我們發現那個是一個所謂的塑膠還有薄膜"},{"start":592.87,"end":614.429,"text":"他一樣是垃圾嘛我就只問你的問題我問你什麼你答什麼就好了嘛那就是這些垃圾到時候20年以後大幅度的發生了那要怎麼處理這個問題回答我這個問題就好基本上現在有越來越多家業者看到這樣的未來的商機他們也會願意去做這樣的工作所以未來的量能我們不不不"},{"start":615.109,"end":634.421,"text":"你一樣啊因為你講的是說我們要講說90%可以回收嗎我已經假定都可以回收了嗎那你有10%是沒有辦法回收的部分嗎那我沒有問你那九成啊我那九成我就suppose說你可以做到所以有一間廠商十間廠商一百間廠商都是一樣的啊我問的問題很清楚"},{"start":634.761,"end":658.218,"text":"就是那10%無法回收的部分那未來因為你裝200萬片那未來那10%無法回收的部分那請問20年以後大量的出現這樣的廢棄物我們政府現在的看法是什麼該如何處置基本上現在那個算是一種塑膠的薄膜它可以透過焚燒或是掩埋的方式別的處理所以你可能會用掩埋焚燒會不會產生化學氣啊"},{"start":661.185,"end":685.613,"text":"基本上現在的我們的焚化爐管得非常嚴所以就是說焚燒的10%那不能回收的東西他會不會有化學的化學就是說所有都可以回收那只剩下不到大概10%左右那目前的那個有10%怎麼會叫做所有呢有10%是沒有辦法回收的那他就不是所有都能夠回收200萬片不是有20萬片不能回收"},{"start":685.933,"end":694.12,"text":"我完全沒有誤會我再講一次200萬片裡面會有90%是可以回收的但是在裡面呢有10%是沒有辦法回收的所以在這個部分我要問的是10%200萬裡面九成可以回收另外的10%那請問要如何處理嗎你要焚燒他還是要掩埋他嗎"},{"start":713.837,"end":735.987,"text":"不是委員是每一片面板裡面有一個塑膠的膜那個認定我知道你剛剛講過了所以就是塑膠而已我剛剛已經講過了總之我的結論是這樣子就是大家一直在繞圈圈也沒有辦法你們要想清楚這個目前沒有辦法回收的部分你要怎麼處理你是要掩埋還是要焚燒焚燒會不會額外產生一些氣體這都是環境部現在要去做規劃的"},{"start":740.13,"end":746.668,"text":"但是我这个议题就跟您讨论到这我们环境部长先暂停我们环境部长可以先请回谢谢"},{"start":748.479,"end":774.755,"text":"那我繼續請問卓院長每一次救災的時候我們都靠很多的這個軍人來救助對救災來說可以說是功不可沒的但是賴清德總統他到嘉義勘災的時候一開始就說這個法律規定國軍不能進入民宅那當然後來他也修正了因為台灣事實查核中心也說並沒有明文禁止規定不能進到民宅只是需要符合程序地方人員有在場等等的要責任歸屬"},{"start":775.635,"end":795.414,"text":"但我想要問軍人救災這麼辛苦但是行政院對於三讀通過的軍人待遇修正案卻不願意依法編列讓辛苦救災的國軍士氣受到這麼大的影響那昨天我有聽您的質詢您提到說要送事件可是同樣是送事件才化法你們是先編列了"},{"start":795.734,"end":811.648,"text":"然後送事件可是國軍待遇條例你們是在一個沒有附議的過程當中沒有依法編列然後呢直接送事件就不編了那我想要問一下為什麼不是在大法官決議以前先依法辦理"},{"start":812.722,"end":823.879,"text":"第一個我們感謝國軍在歷次災損的時候 災害來的時候都親臨現場幫助很多災民那麼我們對國軍的各項福利政府希望能夠循序漸進今年4月以後總統對於"},{"start":828.526,"end":842.975,"text":"我問的只有在於軍人待遇條例你們沒有依法編列你們說要釋憲但是我問的問題是為什麼不是先依法編列等到釋憲結果出來之後再依照憲法法庭的決議處理"},{"start":845.041,"end":869.381,"text":"我們在這次釋憲當中 我們也提出了暫時處分財化法沒有做暫時處分是不是沒有 我們這次有暫時處分財化法也有做暫時處分嗎財化法有沒有做暫時處分這次有暫時處分所以財化法跟國軍的待遇條例都有做暫時處分的情況之下我們有的有提釋憲 沒有提暫時處分有的有提釋憲 那我只問你財化法嘛財化法是不是有提暫時處分 也有提釋憲"},{"start":870.697,"end":880.369,"text":"我記得裁判官我們是只有提釋憲沒有提暫時處分好 所以你沒有提暫時處分你只提釋憲好 那我知道了所以你針對國軍的部分你特別還要提這個暫時處分特別針對國軍喔"},{"start":885.595,"end":895.423,"text":"我們希望所有公務員福利都能夠有夠公平性跟很平靜我們今年4月總統核定了對作戰部隊跟自衛將官以下你們這個就是第一個公然違法打擊國軍事情但納斯颱風是靠他們去救災的"},{"start":906.252,"end":932.608,"text":"你知道這些國軍現役弟兄他們被用完即丟的感覺非常的差院長你昨天說不能大幅增加預算但是我要說大幅跟小幅是用比較的就像暫時性關稅已經一個月還在暫時當然如果你跟一兩年比起來也可以說是暫時的你在國防預算的九千五百億當中軍人待遇提升我想要請問你知不知道比例佔多少九千五百億裡面如果軍人條例你可以跟通過的話佔比多少總統對軍人"},{"start":950.277,"end":950.297,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（17時43分）謝謝院長，有請卓院長還有環境部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長及環境部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：院長好。在丹娜絲颱風之後，許多人相當關心也很擔心的就是關於廢棄的光電板，網路上最多人在傳的就是光電板流出所謂紅水的問題，當然彭部長的說法我已經聽過了，但是按照法規來說，光電板要在水泥地或者是不透水的地方來棄置，為什麼會放在台糖的農地？可以這樣子暫置嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不行的，所以在我們發現了之後有要求它，而且它這個就被我們罰了第二張，200萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：第一張多少錢？第二張多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：第一張100萬，第二張200萬，現在已經到300萬了。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這個紅色的水現在處理的狀況，已經全部完成處置了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，8月16號我有到現地去看，其實在8月十幾號的時候，我們同仁就有去現場採樣紅色的水，它基本上沒有任何的重金屬，也沒有任何的油。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個我清楚，在報導中您都講過，講過的我都會看。我要問的是，到目前為止，這些紅色的水已經處理完畢了嗎？因為我剛剛沒有問說裡面有沒有什麼樣的重金屬，我談的是它本來就不應該在不透水的地方棄置，你也說已經罰了300萬，所以我的問題非常清楚，請問這些紅水已經處置完畢了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我到現場去看過，光電板或浮筒已經沒有在那個地方。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是紅色的水還在不在？"],["彭部長啓明：早就都不在了。"],["徐委員巧芯：完全都不在，那什麼時候環境部可以在這個地方拍一張照片，給所有的民眾知道，在同樣一個地方紅色的水已經沒有了，今天能夠做到嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實在現場有拍我在旁邊的照片，但是我覺得我去採訪，我並不想要讓大家知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼不想讓大家知道？"],["彭部長啓明：因為我們已經澄清了。"],["徐委員巧芯：不、不，你知道你們今天在抓AI小鳥喝紅水的假影片嗎？我並不反對，因為我自己也有收到，我看了之後，我就說這個應該是AI的影片，但是就因為在處理完畢之後，並沒有跟大眾做非常清楚的說明，就是比較先前的狀況、後來的狀況，以及你們中間裁罰了幾次，所以民眾才會擔心。我要問的是，因為這個事情已經討論非常久了，今天能不能做一個比較圖，就是先前紅色水的狀況，跟今天現在的情況，兩者去做比較，能不能去做？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我請我同仁來調照片看看。"],["徐委員巧芯：我希望今天可以做完，因為這真的很久了，你看這個新聞是什麼時候？8月7號，現在8月底了。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我也遭遇到這種錯誤訊息跟假消息到處散布，我們也很困擾，也希望委員幫我們澄清。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我今天提醒你，我是站在你的角度來對大家做一個說明，因為我也不想再收到這些假訊息了嘛！所以如果你今天就能夠做出比較圖……其實你們早就該做了，你不是說你去看已經沒問題了嗎？在確認沒問題的那一天就要告知大眾。","我繼續問有關光電板的處理情形，廢棄物因為丹娜絲颱風的關係，單月增加到2,800噸，你所說的是一個月能夠處理2,900噸，丹娜絲颱風到現在已經兩個多月了，請問目前完成多少噸的清運？"],["彭部長啓明：目前大概接近八成，剩下三成大概就是屬於新庄，就元昱那家公司，它放在岸邊。"],["徐委員巧芯：剩一家公司？"],["彭部長啓明：對，剩下一家公司。"],["徐委員巧芯：剩一家公司，所以70%已經完成清運了，剩下一家公司。"],["彭部長啓明：大概將近快80%了，它已經放在一個暫置點，而且符合規定……"],["徐委員巧芯：我了解了。我問一下，目前針對丹娜絲颱風所造成的光電板之亂，你們有沒有統計過，總共開罰多少金額、開罰幾間廠商？我很好奇。"],["彭部長啓明：開罰3間廠商總共1,000萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有3間廠商？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：有沒有包含剛剛這個台糖的農地？"],["彭部長啓明：這個也有開罰，是算在一起的。"],["徐委員巧芯：算在一起的，所以3張總共罰了多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：那家廠商總共有3個池，有2個池被我們開罰，其中有2個池，一個是罰到200萬，另外一個是100萬、200萬、300萬，總共加起來那家廠商是開罰900萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。我特別想要問一下，你們清理跟回收光電板的計畫裡面，每年都有編列相關的預算，從111年到114年度，我有一個表格給你看，因為我們的時間很有限，這些數字我就不談了，但我們上會期審查今年度的預算，其實裡面只編了200萬，當然，我知道你會告訴我有編在其他的計畫當中，可是我想要針對這200萬來詢問你，就是今年度廢太陽光電模組的清除計畫是在什麼時候才決標的？就針對這200萬的部分，你先不要跟我講其他的，這200萬的部分是什麼時候決標的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我不清楚，因為這是我的署他們自己在辦理標案的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我告訴你答案，就是7月29號決標，8月25號發決標公告，這個公告是在7月15號公告，7月29號開標，而丹娜絲颱風是7月5號早上發布海警，所以我們看到這個標案……這是你們環境部自己在「廢太陽光電板回收消除處理資訊系統」裡面寫的，就是：本年度委託清除廠商名單還在辦理當中，請靜待相關的通知。所以在6月26號這個標案還在環境部的網站上，我們去查的話，它會告訴你說這個還在等待通知，為什麼清理速度那麼慢？當然廠商的怠慢可能是一個重點，這個我不否認，但是你們整個太陽能的清除處理計畫到現在才公布決標，在6月多的時候，你可以看到這上面的訊息，在6月多已經有編列好預算的，也沒有告訴大家有哪些廠商名單在辦理。所以針對這個部分，我希望能夠調整跟改善。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我報告一下，因為他們這些廠商的13.5萬片光電板要去化，是他們要跟那4家廠商，其中2家有營業，他們要自己簽約、自己去化，如果它一個編號有到期，例如20年，他們可以跟能源署去申請這個經費。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有啦！我講的跟你講的東西不是完全一樣的……"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣，這不是為了去化光電板。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你不要回答我跟我問你的問題沒有關係的，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是不一樣的東西。"],["徐委員巧芯：我很願意在會後跟你討論光電板的事情，但是請你就回答我問你的問題就好了，我不會聽不懂你在講什麼。我另外想要問一下，這個光電板一般的使用年限是25年到30年，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：20到25年左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：20到25年，那更短一些。請教現在整個臺灣裝了幾片的光電板，有這樣詳細的資料嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有特別統計，大概15GW左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：大概的數字就好了，不用告訴我說什麼113，不用！大概有幾片？"],["彭部長啓明：大概是幾百萬片吧！"],["徐委員巧芯：差不多200萬片。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為光是在雲林、臺南及彰濱就有大概140萬片，這個是新聞都有報導的，總體來說可能突破200萬片，您剛剛提到這光電板幾乎九成九可以回收，但是我看大部分的說法都是90%可以回收，有10%的回收難度非常的高。請問部長，是不是如此？"],["彭部長啓明：是，因為它有一部分是塑膠的，然後要去定義。"],["徐委員巧芯：也就是我們現在突破200萬片的規模，在20年後會產生200萬，當然我就乘以10%的這個量體，有20萬的部分光電板會變成是非常巨量的垃圾了。雖然那時候不是你們執政，可是我們現在要裝光電板，總是要對接下來整體的規劃去做環境的評估嘛！我想要問的是，如果有10%的量體是沒有辦法回收的，請問一下，這20萬不能回收的部分，未來你們有打算要怎麼處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，我剛才提到有的業者是只能做到92%，有的業者是到99%了，而且也有國際的認證，基本上……"],["徐委員巧芯：我就跟你講，我們就平均九成來說嘛！我們用一個大概率，平均來講九成，我也沒有虧待你，我沒有說八成、七成或六成，我們用九成來說，實際上就會有10%的量體，針對這個部分，我想要知道的是我們裝了200萬片，未來可能還會更多，在20年以後，它會一次性的產生大量的垃圾，而且是無法回收的狀態，請問你們現在是怎麼看待這些廢棄物的？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，它每一樣都可以回收，只剩下不到10%，針對這10%，目前我們發現那是一個所謂的塑膠還有薄膜，我們有在討論……"],["徐委員巧芯：它一樣是垃圾嘛！我問你什麼，你答什麼就好了嘛！這些垃圾到20年以後大幅度的產生了，要怎麼處理？回答我這個問題就好。"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，現在有越來越多家業者看到這樣未來的商機，他們也願意去做這樣的工作，所以未來的量能我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，一樣啊！因為我們剛剛講90%可以回收，我已經假定都可以回收了嘛！有10%是沒有辦法回收的部分，我沒有問你那九成啊！我就suppose那九成你可以做到，所以有1間廠商、10間廠商、100間廠商都是一樣的啊！我問的問題很清楚，就是那10%無法回收的部分，因為裝200萬片，未來那10%無法回收的部分，請問20年以後大量出現這樣的廢棄物，我們政府現在的看法是什麼？該如何處置？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，現在那個算是一種塑膠的薄膜，它可以透過焚燒或是掩埋的方式處理……"],["徐委員巧芯：掩埋喔！"],["彭部長啓明：但也有一些新的方式，像是焚燒、掩埋。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以可能會用掩埋。焚燒會不會產生化學氣體？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，現在我們的焚化爐管得非常嚴，所以請委員放心。"],["徐委員巧芯：我是問焚燒這10%不能回收的東西會不會有化學的氣體或者是……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。就是所有都可以回收，只剩下不到大概10%左右，目前那個由我們來認定。"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！有10%不能回收，怎麼會叫做所有呢？有10%是沒有辦法回收的，就不是所有都能夠回收嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，彭部長的意思是200萬片，不是有20萬片不能回收，是每一片的……"],["徐委員巧芯：No、No，我剛剛的意思就是這樣，我完全沒有誤會。我再講一次，200萬片裡面會有90%是可以回收的，但是有10%是沒有辦法回收的，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是裡面的成分……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以在這個部分我要問的是，這200萬片裡面的九成可以回收，另外的10%請問要如何處理？你要焚燒它還是要掩埋它嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：不是，委員，是每一片面板裡面有一個塑膠的膜，那個認定……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道你剛剛講過了……"],["彭部長啓明：所以就是塑膠而已……"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛已經講過了，總之我的結論是這樣子，現在大家一直在繞圈圈也沒有辦法，你們要想清楚這個目前沒有辦法回收的部分要怎麼處理，是要掩埋還是要焚燒？焚燒會不會額外產生一些氣體？這都是環境部現在要去規劃的，這個議題就跟您討論到這裡，時間暫停，環境部長可以先請回，謝謝。"],["主席：時間暫停，環境部長請回座。"],["徐委員巧芯：我繼續請問卓院長，在每一次救災的時候我們都靠很多軍人來救助，他們對救災可以說是功不可沒的，但是賴清德總統到嘉義勘災的時候，一開始就說法律規定國軍不能進入民宅，當然後來他也修正了，因為臺灣事實查核中心也說並沒有明文規定不能進到民宅，只是需要符合程序、地方人員有在場等等，要有清楚的責任歸屬。但我想要問，軍人救災這麼辛苦，但是行政院對於三讀通過的軍人待遇修正案卻不願意依法編列預算，讓辛苦救災的國軍士氣受到這麼大的影響。昨天我有聽您在接受質詢的時候提到要送釋憲，同樣是送釋憲，財劃法你們是先編列了然後送釋憲，可是對軍人待遇條例你們是在一個沒有覆議的過程當中，沒有依法編列，然後直接送釋憲，就不編預算了。我想要問一下，為什麼不是在大法官決議以前先依法辦理？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們感謝國軍在歷次災害來的時候都親臨現場幫助很多災民，我們對國軍的各項福利，政府希望……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個我都聽過了，你直接回答這個問題好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府希望能夠循序漸進，今年4月以後總統對於作戰部隊……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的只有在於軍人待遇條例你們沒有依法編列，你們說要釋憲，但是我問的問題是為什麼不是先依法編列，等到釋憲結果出來之後，再依照憲法法庭的決議處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在這次釋憲當中也聲請了暫時處分……"],["徐委員巧芯：財劃法沒有做暫時處分是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們這次有暫時處分……"],["徐委員巧芯：財劃法也有做暫時處分嗎？財劃法有沒有做暫時處分？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次有暫時處分。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以財劃法跟軍人待遇條例都有做暫時處分的情況之下……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有的有提釋憲，沒有提暫時處分；有的有提釋憲，也提暫時處分。"],["徐委員巧芯：我只問你財劃法嘛！財劃法是不是有提暫時處分，也有提釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：我記得財劃法只有提釋憲，沒有提暫時處分。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你沒有提暫時處分，只提釋憲，好，那我知道了，所以針對國軍的部分，你特別還要提暫時處分！特別針對國軍喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望所有公務員的福利都能夠有公平性和衡平性……"],["徐委員巧芯：特別針對國軍，現在我知道了！你不說我不知道，我以為你們都是送釋憲而已，原來你們是特別針對國軍，還要再多加一個暫時處分。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年4月總統核定了對作戰部隊跟志願役將官以下……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們這樣第一個就是公然違法、打擊國軍士氣，丹娜絲颱風是靠他們去救災的，你知道這些國軍現役弟兄他們覺得被用完即丟的感覺非常差嗎？院長，你昨天說不能大幅增加預算，但是我要說大幅跟小幅是用比較的，就像暫時性關稅已經1個月了還在暫時！當然如果跟一、兩年比起來，也可以說是暫時的，在國防預算的9,500億當中，關於軍人待遇的提升，我想要請問你知不知道這個比例占多少？在這9,500億裡面，如果軍人條例可以通過的話，占比會是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統對軍人、對國軍的照顧不遺餘力……"],["徐委員巧芯：你都不知道！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對於國軍的感謝都在心裡……"],["徐委員巧芯：5%對軍人來說……9,500億並不是很大的金額……"],["卓院長榮泰：只要釋憲結果出來，我們依照釋憲結果，看是就停止或者是要補回，我們願意依照釋憲結果，謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們就應該要先編列預算，然後再去送釋憲，謝謝。這樣對國軍而言很不公平。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」之質詢已經詢答完畢，再次感謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢。","現在作以下決定：一、「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查；二、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復；三、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，再一次呼籲院會，行政院卓院長及閣員是應立法院邀請來立法院報告，連續五場專案報告，很遺憾有執政黨的卓院長，但是沒有一個執政黨的立法委員在現場，我覺得這非常非常離譜，所以我再一次呼籲民進黨黨團，這種專案報告，一定要請民進黨的立法委員在現場，而不是像今天一位委員都沒有。我們非常感謝國民黨黨團的許宇甄委員、徐巧芯委員及台灣民眾黨黨團的林憶君委員，一起參與我們專案報告。","本次會議進行到此為止，現在散會。","散會（18時）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e7907828494bebbbe17e7691804860db32ef3fe55b262b105a4ff0509819ccb48bc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"17:27:36 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謝謝院長那我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢等一下再請相關部會的首長請卓院長二委員好"},{"start":23.203,"end":46.52,"text":"院長辛苦了 還是加油我相信不分草野大家都希望台灣更好所以今天我們面對這個特別預算我們希望能夠第一個盡快通過第二個我們現在錢花在刀口上花在真正能夠讓人民有感的地方幫助更多的受災的民眾我想7月的 雖然今天"},{"start":47.46,"end":69.792,"text":"特別預算裡面大家談的幾乎都是南部地區但是我跟院長報告7月相關的風災雨災在台中也是一個超級大好雨而且是創下70年來同期最多的雨量我想極端氣候大家都談很多但是如何能夠強化災防的韌性"},{"start":71.513,"end":100.438,"text":"以及讓我們所有的人民能夠安居樂業我想這個是我們政府責無旁貸大家要一起努力的那我在第一頁有一個步風五福社區我為什麼會特別請院長感受一下這個暗示落這麼大落到陰水所以人都睡不著都要起來順大家都會歡樂這個其實就是大多數遇到天災風災雨災"},{"start":101.238,"end":127.537,"text":"大部分受灾户受灾的人民他的第一时间的心情我想绝对是不美丽而且绝对是很脆弱绝对需要我们政府跟所有相关的单位能够跟他们同理站在第一线上能够协助他们而且要快这也就是为什么我们今天这个特别预算我刚刚一开始说我们希望能够快速通过其实不是只有物丰物福"},{"start":129.298,"end":149.448,"text":"7月底從28 29 30 31大台中大大小小的災情很多淹水的情況也很多我另外在有一面有一個照片是在烏日的環河路那個淹水這不僅僅是人行走困難那裡也是一個交通要道連汽車機車都會掉車"},{"start":153.105,"end":169.389,"text":"淹水的問題到底在哪裡其實我覺得第一個我要先謝謝院長因為院長在第一時間有說宣布只要是有淹水縣市政府認定超過50公分除了縣市政府既有的一個救助金之外我們行政院加碼兩萬對不對院長"},{"start":172.062,"end":188.139,"text":"是 所以我在第一時間因為當時候院長說的這個加碼是針對南部縣市我怕院長忘了台中的淹水情況也很嚴重所以我第一時間也趕快行文提醒我們行政院那也謝謝院長跟我們經濟部"},{"start":189.4,"end":218.056,"text":"在第一時間就把台中只要有淹水的情形經過市政府的認定我們行政院也同樣加碼 對不對 院長是的那我希望呢 呈報上來的我們要趕快核定因為呢欠災民的錢不要拖啦 要趕啦 這第一個呈報的過程也請地方政府能夠把數據能夠出來我們才能夠核算應該是這樣講 院長我們第一個要公開透明我們的效率"},{"start":219.991,"end":246.352,"text":"地方政府到底是多久的時間匯集資料那多久的時間送到我們中央我們在同步的縣市政府在做補助的時候我們收到他呈報上來的資料我們如何在最快的速度能夠把加碼的救助金發放出去我覺得這是人民對政府的信任的第一步所以這個效率很重要接著我認為"},{"start":247.933,"end":274.534,"text":"除了給現金給救助金之外最重要的就是要解決問題嘛對不對我這個陰陰陰我沒希望後一天再落大我家又陰水所以我以物風物福為例我剛剛的第一張照片它半夜水淹上來了之後結果事後我們去調查原因它是我們的農水設施做得不夠好因為水閘門關不起來"},{"start":278.376,"end":290.581,"text":"他同時有灌溉溝渠那旁邊就是增淘就是住宅區結果因為旁邊的灌溉溝渠的水閘門現在是老舊的手動式的水閘門"},{"start":292.398,"end":316.56,"text":"因為老舊卡住關不起來所以造成那整個增淘陰水那我覺得這個就是事後檢討我們發現的問題就是要解決問題所以我當下在會看的時候我第一個要求要檢討現行的SOP什麼SOP原來我們農業部的農水署要求各水利單位"},{"start":317.12,"end":332.297,"text":"只有在地方政府宣布開設這個一級二級的災防應變中心之後他們才會跟著啟動SOP來應變結果那一天淹大水的時候台中市政府還沒有宣布"},{"start":335.119,"end":357.111,"text":"這個災變中心而且當時候台中市長人在國外沒人主持大局所以一拖就拖過了所以沒有人發現這個問題結果我們農水署的相關同仁們就被動的等著地方政府來宣布有沒有成立應變中心就錯過了黃金時間所以第一個我要求要檢討現行的SOP"},{"start":358.712,"end":380.733,"text":"不一定要等只要是發生問題了我覺得就應該要及時的因應所以院長是你同意吧部長也在這裡請農水署還有水利署以後這個事情我們提早如何能夠是 這個農水署跟水利單位也有關係我跟委員報告一下我們現在在修正的還有在調整的作為就是"},{"start":381.704,"end":408.773,"text":"在颱風任何的可能的雨害來之前就要巡一次至少那個關的部分是沒有問題的然後後續什麼時候關才會搭配著後面的這些災防的這些層級但是一定會有人他的最主要問題是沒有辦法關沒有辦法關開對所以要事前的去巡視他是不是正常這才是重點所以這個部分我已經要求農水組這邊包括他們的水利小組都要再去查一次"},{"start":409.573,"end":438.206,"text":"我會建議院長也在這裡我們今天要通過特別預算應該要好好的盤點因為我們現在有很多的農水利設施是比較老舊的相對的我們現在數位科技化的現在我們可以升級就要利用我們現在的特別預算好好盤點該升級就要升級該增設抽水設施就應該增設抽水設施這也就是部長你剛剛講的我們當然在事前要先去巡查"},{"start":438.766,"end":466.546,"text":"那巡查之後盤點了之後我們該改善就要改善該有特別預算來支應我希望大家要趕快的事先的提出我相信院長一定會支持的嘛譬如說我們現在都說智慧水閘門還有遠端的監控系統如果在這個淹水地區的一個關鍵的這個區域的話我們是不是可以來盤點跟檢討來做這個重建復建跟改進院長這不難吧"},{"start":468.089,"end":485.757,"text":"是 我們每次到應變中心都要求抽水機要夠 抽水站要能用人車物料要充足那這一個預算裡面我們也編列了大型移動性的抽水機有一億元另外有防水板的相關經費都會落實在這一次預算當中的結構裡面"},{"start":486.457,"end":515.681,"text":"所以我希望部長那院長剛剛有指示我覺得這個是好事也是應該要做的事對人民生活影響很重要的事那我覺得應該要做接著除了淹水的地區我們要發救助金我們要解決問題我們台中有大片的山坡地山坡地的水保是最重要的我在第一時間跑了霧峰北屯還有太平"},{"start":516.776,"end":517.261,"text":"你會看到"},{"start":519.932,"end":547.512,"text":"山邊的農民的土石流就進了他的房子然後呢 整個道路是中斷的完全不能通行 整個都東山 朝山 樓上去我們在那幾天 台中的大好雨包括霧峰 新社 潭子 豐原 東勢 北屯 太平等地區土石災害 農路攤房目前在所謂的75件是地方政府報上來的我相信不止"},{"start":548.032,"end":575.022,"text":"那我也希望在這一次特別預算裡面我們行政院不管是經濟部跟農業部能夠大力的支持協助地方政府來重建不管是農路也好水土保持工程也好或者是相關的道路橋樑這個院長這本來就是我們應該做的對不對所以我們需要特別預算接著我來給你看一個數字院長"},{"start":576.206,"end":590.585,"text":"台中是一個六都的都會區大家會想說怎麼農產的災損我們是最多其實台中的物產風老農業地區也很多我們的農作物相對的也非常多元這個"},{"start":592.708,"end":608.448,"text":"表格計算表格是我們的行政單位給我的那就是0728那7月底的那幾天的豪雨造成了農業的災損的損失的金額統計表我看一下第一名叫屏東縣第二名就叫台中市"},{"start":610.385,"end":633.565,"text":"所以我也希望扶植農民讓農產業能夠復甦摘損能夠得到政府的協助補助讓我們的農民生活可以早日恢復正常而且他才有能力能量在下一次面對下一個年頭的農作或者是下一次的災害我相信災害"},{"start":634.666,"end":662.128,"text":"希望在政府的協助之下不要再多了農民是看天吃飯但是我們希望老天爺能夠天佑臺灣希望我們的政府要做的是什麼在這樣的極端氣候之下災防韌性還有相關的災防建設我們能夠做得到位跟農民一起來抵抗垮梯吃飯這事宜院長這是我們要跟農民站在一起的好不好"},{"start":662.748,"end":689.296,"text":"所以呢在這個六度裡面台中的農產損失是超過一億也許你們說超過一億對一個直轄市來說看起來不多但是呢像我剛剛講從淹水到水土保持到農路到這個農民的災損我想方方面面還有很多其實不只這一億其實不只是這些錢更多的是需要我們政府長期的支持啦院長對不對"},{"start":690.816,"end":708.642,"text":"我們就是不管是從產業從農業這個各方面我們除了原來的計畫之外不夠的部分我們就是用這樣的方式來把它補充那未來包括治水我們還有更多的四年的計畫要做長期支持對政府來講我們就是把政策延續下去"},{"start":709.793,"end":725.701,"text":"對不起院長你剛剛有回答其他委員因為有其他委員在指引過去我們的治水計畫還有治水預算花了那麼多好像沒什麼成效可是院長事實上我們從長遠的角度來看的話跟專業的角度來看的話是有效的"},{"start":726.181,"end":747.79,"text":"是有效的只是我們的極端氣候真的變化的太超乎我們人類所及應該是這樣子講那它變化的速度太快所以造成我們這個治水的一個功效好像讓人覺得打了折扣可是以我在我的選區台中市來看台中市在過去這幾年"},{"start":748.57,"end":764.759,"text":"我們中央支持之下整治了很多的河川還有下水道系統我也爭取在行政院的支持之下也建置了很多那所以相對的我們過去易淹水的地區像剛剛院長回答的面積越來越縮小"},{"start":765.379,"end":790.492,"text":"那退水的這個時間越來越縮短但是我們仍然希望好還要更好所以剛剛院長講到一句話長期的預算的支持治水不管是在農業或者經濟部或者是內政部相關各部會只要是對地方治水有功效的我們都應該要全力的來支持所以我在最後的結語"},{"start":791.954,"end":795.487,"text":"會再問一下我們這個特別預算我要問一下這個院長"},{"start":797.056,"end":825.721,"text":"因為在第二條裡面有講這個台中市雖然有在我們的這個立法說明裡面是一個災區但是範圍是由行政院公告那我剛剛聽到我們這一次特別預算的主責單位叫做公共工程委員會所以呢我們的這個災區的一個範圍公告是行政院公共工程委員會來勘查之後來認定公告院長對不對那請問依照實際的自災情形"},{"start":827.403,"end":841.124,"text":"請問我們這個特別預算通過之後何時公告我認為很快就會依照實際自災情形來公告但大部分的區域都很清楚了如果還有一些不是整個"},{"start":842.486,"end":856.875,"text":"整個直轄市可能某些區域裡面特別嚴重事態情形工程會就有處理這次在特別條例的協調當中就是院長在組織協調當中有附帶決議已經包括台中了"},{"start":857.97,"end":874.008,"text":"台中全市各縣市政府他必須有一個申報我們昨天才開會討論關於災區的審查的標準所以將來會設到工程會然後會召開會議"},{"start":876.331,"end":898.952,"text":"所以主委因為你剛剛講的這些要召開會議然後審查標準要制定那這些呢都需要時間那我只希望說能夠要快要有效率因為我想特別預算草野都支持我們應該會最快的速度來通過那我們希望同時因為那個標準並沒有設定的很嚴格沒有設定很嚴格但是還是要你們審慎對不對"},{"start":901.094,"end":927.191,"text":"那審任跟公告我希望能夠用最快的時間最有效率的方式趕快好不好主委 這個院長也有答應那我剛剛也跟院長提到有很多的事情是要長期的我們今天特別預算通過了雖然是針對的這些風災雨災這個天災但是我知道現在我們政府手上四大預算案就是要顧民生 要拚經濟所以拜託院長我們一起加油"},{"start":929.353,"end":930.442,"text":"好 謝謝何欣淳委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（17時27分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["何委員欣純：等一下再請相關部會首長，請卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，大家都辛苦了。"],["何委員欣純：但是加油，我相信不分朝野，大家都希望臺灣更好！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以今天我們面對這個特別預算，我們希望第一個，儘快通過；第二個，我們希望錢花在刀口上、花在真正能夠讓人民有感的地方，幫助更多的受災民眾。雖然今天這個特別預算裡面，大家談的幾乎都是南部地區，但是我跟院長報告，7月相關的風災、雨災，在臺中也是一個超級大豪雨，而且是創下70年來同期最多的雨量。極端氣候大家都談很多，但是如何能夠強化災防的韌性，以及讓我們所有人民能夠安居樂業，我想這是政府責無旁貸，大家要一起努力的。","我在第1頁提到一個霧峰五福社區，為什麼會特別提到？請院長感受一下，晚上下了這麼大的雨，下到都淹水了，所以民眾都睡不著，都要起來巡視一下，大家都會煩惱，這個其實就是大多數遇到天災、風災、雨災，大部分受災戶、受災人民他第一時間的心情，我想絕對是不美麗的，而且絕對是很脆弱的，絕對需要我們政府跟所有相關單位能夠同理的跟他們站在第一線上來協助他們，而且要快，這也就是為什麼我們今天這個特別預算，我剛剛一開始說我們希望能夠快速通過。其實不是只有霧峰五福社區，7月底從28、29、30、31，大臺中大大小小的災情很多，淹水的情況也很多，我另外有一個照片是在烏日的環河路，那個淹水的情況不僅僅是人行走困難，那裡也是一個交通要道，連汽車、機車都會拋錨。","淹水的問題到底在哪裡？其實我覺得，第一個，我要先謝謝院長，因為院長在第一時間有宣布，只要是縣市政府認定淹水超過50公分，除了縣市政府既有的救助金之外，行政院再加碼2萬，對不對？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["何委員欣純：所以我在第一時間……因為當時候院長說的加碼是針對南部縣市，我怕院長忘了臺中的淹水情況也很嚴重。"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，我應該全部涵蓋在內。"],["何委員欣純：所以我第一時間也趕快行文提醒行政院。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：也謝謝院長跟經濟部在第一時間就把臺中只要有淹水的情形，經過市政府的認定，行政院也同樣加碼，對不對？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["何委員欣純：我希望呈報上來的要趕快核定，因為欠災民的錢不要拖、要快！這是第一個。"],["卓院長榮泰：呈報的過程也請地方政府能夠把數據整理出來，我們才能夠核算。"],["何委員欣純：是，應該是這樣講，院長，第一個，要公開透明我們的效率……地方政府到底是多久的時間匯集資料、多久的時間送到中央？縣市政府在做補助的時候，中央收到陳報上來的資料，如何在最快的速度能夠把加碼的救助金發放出去，我覺得這是人民對政府信任的第一步。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以這個效率很重要！","接著我認為，除了給現金、給救助金之外，最重要的就是要解決問題嘛！對不對？這次淹水，但我不希望下次再下大雨，我家又淹水了。所以我以霧峰五福為例，剛剛第一張照片，半夜水淹上來了之後，結果事後我們去調查原因，是因為我們的農水設施做得不夠好，因為水閘門關不起來，它同時有灌溉溝渠，旁邊就是村子，就是住宅區，結果旁邊灌溉溝渠的水閘門現在是老舊的手動式水閘門，因為老舊卡住而關不起來，所以造成整個村子淹水，我覺得這個就是事後檢討，我們發現了問題，就是要解決問題。","所以當下在會勘的時候我第一個要求要檢討現行的SOP，什麼SOP？原來農業部的農水署要求各水利單位，只有在地方政府宣布開設一級、二級災防應變中心之後，他們才會跟著啟動SOP來應變，結果那一天淹大水的時候，臺中市政府還沒有宣布設災變中心，而且當時候臺中市長人在國外，沒人主持大局，所以一拖就拖過了，沒有人發現這個問題，結果農水署相關同仁們就被動地等著地方政府宣布有沒有成立應變中心，也就錯過了那個黃金時間！","所以第一個，我要求要檢討現行的SOP，不一定要等，只要是發生問題了，我覺得就應該要即時的因應，院長，這你同意吧？部長也在這裡。"],["卓院長榮泰：請農水署，還有水利署，以後這個事情我們提早看如何能夠防範因應。"],["何委員欣純：是，這個除了農水署，跟水利單位也有關係。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告一下，我們現在在修正還有在調整的作為就是在颱風、任何可能的雨害來之前就要巡一次，至少確認那個關的部分是沒有問題的，然後後續什麼時候關，才會搭配著後面這些災防層級，但是一定會有人，它的最主要問題是沒有辦法關、開。"],["何委員欣純：關不起來。"],["陳部長駿季：對。所以要事前去巡視它是不是正常，這才是重點，這個部分我已經要求農水署這邊，包括他們的水利小組都要再去查一次。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我會建議，院長也在這裡，我們今天要通過特別預算，應該好好的盤點，因為我們現在有很多農水利設施是比較老舊的，相對的在數位科技化的現在，我們可以升級就要利用現在的特別預算好好盤點，該升級就要升級，該增設抽水設施就應該增設抽水設施，這也就是部長剛剛講的，我們當然要在事前先去巡查，那巡查之後、盤點之後，我們該改善就要改善，該有特別預算來支應……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["何委員欣純：我希望大家要趕快事先提出，我相信院長一定會支持的，比如我們現在都說智慧水閘門，還有遠端的監控系統，如果設在淹水地區的關鍵區域的話，我們是不是可以來盤點跟檢討並做重建、復建跟改進，院長，這不難吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我每次到應變中心都要求抽水機要夠、抽水站要能用，人車、物料要充足，我們在這一個預算裡面也編列大型移動性抽水機，有1億元；另外，有防水板的相關經費，都會落實在這一次預算的結構當中。"],["何委員欣純：所以我希望部長，院長剛剛有指示了，我覺得這是好事、是應該要做的事，也對人民生活影響很重要的事，我覺得應該要做。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：接著，除了淹水地區，我們要發救助金、要解決問題，臺中有大片的山坡地，山坡地的水保是最重要的。我在第一時間跑了霧峰、北屯還有太平，你會看到山邊有農民的房子，土石流就進了他的房子，整個道路是中斷的，完全不能通行，整個都崩山、走山、路斷掉，那幾天臺中的大豪雨，包括霧峰、新社、潭子、豐原、東勢、北屯、太平等地區土石災害、農路坍方，目前這75件是地方政府報上來的，我相信不只，我也希望在這一次的特別預算裡面，我們的行政院，不管是經濟部跟農業部能夠大力地支持、協助地方政府重建，不管是農路也好、水土保持相關工程也好，或者是相關的道路、橋梁。院長，這本來就是我們應該做的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們需要特別預算。接著我要給你看一個數字，院長，臺中是六都之一、是都會區，大家會想說怎麼我們農產的災損是最多，其實臺中的物產豐饒，農業地區很多，我們的農作物相對也非常多元。這個計算表格是行政單位給我的，是在0728也就是7月底那幾天的豪雨造成農業災損的損失金額統計表，我看到第一名是屏東縣，第二名就是臺中市。所以我也希望扶植農民，讓農產業能夠復甦、災損能夠得到政府的協助、補助，讓我們的農民生活可以早日恢復正常，而且還有能力、能量再面對下一個年頭的農作或下一次的災害，我希望在政府的支持、協助之下，災損不要再多了，農民是看天吃飯，但是我們希望老天爺能夠天佑臺灣，我們政府要做的是什麼？在這樣的極端氣候之下，對災防韌性還有相關的災防建設我們要能夠做得到位，跟農民一起來抵抗「看天吃飯」這四個字啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["何委員欣純：院長，我們是要跟農民站在一起的，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是！"],["何委員欣純：在六都裡面，臺中的農產損失超過1億，也許你會說超過1億對一個直轄市來說看起來不多，但是像我剛剛講的，從淹水、到水土保持、到農路、到農民的災損，我想方方面面還有很多，其實不只這1億、不只是這些錢，更多的是需要我們政府長期的支持，院長，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不管是從產業、從農業等各方面，我們除了原來的計畫之外，不夠的部分我們就是用這樣的方式來補充，未來包括治水還有更多的四年計畫要做，長期支持對政府來講，就是把政策延續下去。"],["何委員欣純：對不起，院長，你剛剛有回答其他委員，因為有其他委員在質疑我們過去的治水計畫還有治水預算花了那麼多，好像沒什麼成效，可是院長，事實上我們從長遠的角度跟專業的角度來看的話，是有效的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，絕對有。"],["何委員欣純：只是極端氣候真的變化的太超乎人類所及，應該是這樣子講，它變化的速度太快，所以造成治水的功效讓人覺得好像打了折扣，可是以我的選區臺中市來看，臺中市過去這幾年在中央支持之下，整治了很多的河川和下水道系統，我也爭取在行政院的支持之下建置了很多，所以相對的，過去易淹水的地區，像剛剛院長回答的，面積越來越縮小，退水的時間越來越縮短，但是我們仍然希望好還要更好。","剛剛院長講到一句話，長期的預算支持治水，不管是在農業部、經濟部或者是內政部，相關各部會只要是對地方治水有功效的，都應該要全力來支持，所以我最後在做結語前再問一下特別預算，我要問一下院長，雖然臺中市在第二條的立法說明裡面是一個災區，但是範圍是由行政院公告，我剛剛聽到這一次特別預算的主責單位是公共工程委員會，所以災區的範圍是由行政院公共工程委員會勘查之後來認定、公告，院長，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照實際的致災情形。"],["何委員欣純：請問在這個特別預算通過之後，會在何時公告？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為很快就會依照實際致災情形來公告，但大部分的區域都很清楚了，如果還有一些，並不是整個直轄市，可能在某些區域裡面有特別嚴重的致災情形，工程會就會來處理。"],["何委員欣純：來，主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：這次在特別條例的協調當中，在院長主持的協調當中有附帶決議，已經包括臺中了。"],["何委員欣純：臺中全市？"],["陳主任委員金德：臺中、苗栗，但是各縣市政府必須有一個申報，我們昨天才開會討論關於災區審查的標準，所以將來會由工程會召開會議，然後會簽奉報院……"],["何委員欣純：主委，因為你剛剛講到要召開會議、審查標準要制訂，這些都需要時間，我只希望要快、要有效率，因為我想特別預算朝野都支持，我們應該會以最快的速度來通過，我們也希望同時……"],["陳主任委員金德：那個標準並沒有設定的很嚴格啦。"],["何委員欣純：沒有設定很嚴格，但是還是要你們審認嘛，對不對？審認跟公告，我希望能夠用最快的時間、最有效率的方式，趕快好不好？主委，這個院長也有答應。我剛剛也跟院長提到，有很多的事情是長期的，今天特別預算通過了，雖然針對的是風災、雨災等天災，但是我知道現在政府手上有四大預算案，就是要顧民生、要拚經濟，所以拜託院長，我們一起加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，一起合作，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，今天登記最後一位的發言委員，第11位徐巧芯委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","conte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院長剛剛你的報告裡面提到說你要替災民謝謝立法院所以我想在整個重建過程當中災民應該是最先被關照跟幫助的對象但是我們攤開來看這次整個特別預算的編列立法院多給了行政院"},{"start":45.237,"end":57.525,"text":"從560億變成600億就是希望可以給災民更多的照顧但是我們攤開來看現在對於這些弱勢戶重建家園的預算總共只佔了21億這21億呢"},{"start":60.647,"end":85.503,"text":"其實佔了整體預算只有3.5%你認為這樣子真的有照顧到災民了嗎在目前為止其實本席看到的是之前在朝野協商我也多次提醒現在行政院願意幫忙去修復這個屋頂整個毀壞的願意幫助中低收入戶"},{"start":86.784,"end":107.455,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下,事實上我來自嘉義,嘉義是我的故鄉嘉義縣老年人口非常的多然後我親自去看有很多的這些老宅裡面住的都是超過65歲,有的是70、80歲的老人"},{"start":108.095,"end":126.417,"text":"它不見得有中低收入戶的資格但那個是它僅存安身立命的房子它破了它漏水它屋頂飛走了但是它並不在這一次你們全額補助的範圍真的是非常的辛苦那朝野協商其實我也提出來過"},{"start":128.199,"end":151.679,"text":"但是你們並沒有採納就是進一步再去更擴大補助我想問為什麼因為以全部的預算來看的話事實上這個是重中之重所有包括全國人民我相信他們看到那個畫面他們想要幫助的就是這一些每一個受災戶的災民是優先最想幫助的對象結果在你們的整體預算裡面它只佔了3.5%"},{"start":153.921,"end":177.018,"text":"為什麼是這樣的一個編列若市戶本來就相對一般戶就比較少一般申請了三四萬戶那若市戶大概一千戶以內所以他本來就比較少所有的若市戶不管拆或修繕全部有政府負擔有擴大就低收跟中低收之外呢"},{"start":179.1,"end":204.222,"text":"特殊禁域還有脆弱家庭經社工評估有劣測這樣有多少嗎以台南來講是大概500左右所以你看看它在你整體的比例還是很低啊我要講的是像嘉義縣它是全國老人第一比例的地方我當時在超越線上有建議像這種家裡面住的都是老人"},{"start":205.003,"end":229.595,"text":"照道理政府也應該要提供幫忙但是你們現在我只能說你們現在還是採取一個不是從寬的標準是從嚴的標準很限縮的標準但是我只能講我們現在台灣對於中低收入戶的認定是非常嚴格的我們真的可以納入法定貧窮人口數只有2.5%我們跟其他國家比較起來跟鄰近的日韓他們大概有10%我們只有2.5%"},{"start":231.536,"end":257.078,"text":"所以你若完全採取中低收入戶的標準我只能告訴院長跟這個政委有很多他是邊緣的競品他實際的狀況經濟狀況就是不好完全被人排除你的關懷戶不是從經濟的標準那是特殊境遇可能有一些他的需求但是跟這個競品還是不一樣競品跟獨居老人就收入比較少獨居老人"},{"start":258.701,"end":263.208,"text":"這幾類的以貪婪來講那似乎他會全額去補助修善那嘉義縣呢"},{"start":263.732,"end":291.406,"text":"那嘉義縣當然嘉義縣政府如果可以編列的話去修繕嘉義縣那麼窮他怎麼有辦法去編列如果你中央不提供補助他怎麼有辦法在這邊我要幫因為那一部分比例很少我們就講災損不是所有的弱勢戶就是說房屋破損的比方說嘉義縣大概申請的有五千嘛那其中弱勢是一定比例那通常這個都已經包含在內不會說單獨把它排除在外"},{"start":292.227,"end":307.293,"text":"我知道但是你補助的不夠嘛所謂的從寬的原則你知道修一個屋頂要多少嗎30萬起跳吧那你現在最高的補助額度到多少你知道嗎只有10萬如果給政府來修上是完全免費"},{"start":307.813,"end":331.44,"text":"你政府修繕範圍就只有中低收入啊包括還有特殊經濟一般民眾你有受理嗎一般民眾是要媒介一般民眾就是媒合啊你沒有補助嘛有補助就是10萬跟5萬啊看他的房屋破損程度所以只有10萬嘛我現在要告訴兩位就是以你們現在劃定的這樣一個標準跟補助的範圍對於災民來講是不夠的"},{"start":336.281,"end":357.741,"text":"所謂你們的從寬沒有從寬今天立法院給你們這麼多的預算我覺得要分輕重緩急優先順序我個人認為不是所有你們應該還要再擴大我剛才提醒你了中低收入戶我們的標準是非常的嚴格的那所以你今天我看到你的預備金還有30億"},{"start":360.063,"end":377.088,"text":"在這個預備金裡面你應該同時告訴這次最慘的就是嘉義縣跟台南市所以你應該讓兩個地方政府給他們一定的金額讓他們去看實際的狀況有需求的民眾還補不夠的應該要給他們這樣的彈性你知道才是真正照顧到災民"},{"start":378.268,"end":394.337,"text":"如果你今天沒有這樣子做我覺得就是為德不足我們今天所有立法院的好意還提高了金額但是在災民的眼中在他們身上其實拿到的補助是不夠的我希望這個部分你們是不是有這個空間可以再去檢討因為你還有預備金 院長可以嗎"},{"start":395.117,"end":409.671,"text":"這就是保持這個整個運用的彈性是 自災地區如果當我們的整個補助的方法還沒有辦法完全涵蓋或是有更特殊的狀況的時候這個我們就充分運用但是我們要放心絕對沒有地域之分"},{"start":410.231,"end":428.604,"text":"沒有縣市之分我們一定是依照自災情形需要來我希望就真正受災的災民他可以得到充分的協助好不好這個才是我們立法院這麼快速的通過條例而且提高金額最大的用意第二個重塑的原則我現在看到事實上在核發的建樹受理的建樹"},{"start":429.605,"end":447.29,"text":"他的這個落差還蠻大的這當中特別是像嘉義縣他現在受理的件數有9000件核發只有500多件這個是統計到8月20號為止我想問兩位的是現在最大的困難是什麼這麼的緩慢現在已經過了50天了"},{"start":449.591,"end":468.62,"text":"報告委員行政院的20億加一市1億加一縣8億台南市10億在7月25號錢都已經撥下去了到現在已經一個月了那加一縣的這個部分是受災的各鄉鎮公所在辦理行政院全在一個月前都已經撥到地方政府了"},{"start":468.78,"end":470.502,"text":"這個不是中央政府在審查所以台南市政府"},{"start":486.163,"end":504.533,"text":"檢任級的官員以及其他的同仁進駐到各區公所我們同樣要求嘉峪縣政府他必須派相關人員進駐到各鄉鎮公所但是嘉峪縣的各鄉鎮公所是民選的首長"},{"start":505.393,"end":522.691,"text":"台南市的區公所是市長派的區長所以稍微有不同所以我們會去那你們就要加強去輔導可以嗎我們再跟鄉鎮公所再討論因為這樣的一個效率恐怕我們的所有的好意災民都感受不到因為都沒有拿到這裡面還有一個原因就是說有時候報的這個面積很難認定所以承辦人員會特別謹慎"},{"start":528.337,"end":544.337,"text":"那麼他會受理之後一件一件去看所以這個都是重塑的原則就沒有落實嗎因為你們在立法院一直說我們要從寬重塑從優但是看起來這個重塑的原則並沒有落實我希望你們可以好好去督促另外一個"},{"start":545.258,"end":572.146,"text":"現在還有漏網之魚我給你看一個個案這個是在嘉義縣這一個業者他是專門在收購稻殼他重新再把它去製作之後碳化這些稻殼然後他有一部分還提供給中鋼做煉鋼使用但他在這次的風災裡面大家看這些畫面他那些稻殼原物料全部泡水倉庫一片狼藉屋頂也破損"},{"start":573.366,"end":587.142,"text":"損失現在初估超過三千萬那他收購的這些稻殼占全國的百分之二十蠻大間的一個工廠但是到目前為止他跟我陳情中央或地方沒有一個人"},{"start":588.343,"end":606.571,"text":"他發生這麼大的事情沒有一個人去關心然後呢要跟誰申請補助我初步問了農業部農糧署他後來說不是他的他推給經濟部我現在就要問像這樣子的一個企業受災的企業還有多少然後因為他從事的是這一些"},{"start":607.811,"end":625.615,"text":"到可的這個收購本來以為是農業部結果農業部說不是他跟他無關那現在是經濟部嗎那像這一類的還沒有完全得到任何補助在你這一次的整個條例當中到底哪一個部會管然後可不可以接受補助可以補助到多少那這些工廠怎麼辦損失慘重怎麼辦"},{"start":634.167,"end":662.042,"text":"那你們現在補助辦法是什麼可以補助多少現在經濟部也沒有去關心啊所以他們現在陳情已經過了50天了經濟部對企業應該有一些協助經濟部提供什麼協助是不是跟委員報告齁那我們針對這個部分我們有編列一筆錢齁大概給給企業補助20萬那另外還有一個貸20萬那另外還有一個貸款的那個利息補貼的部分我想這個不足的部分我想企業可以做貸款來"},{"start":663.343,"end":679.457,"text":"像這樣的企業經濟部會受理在這次的條例裡面可以得到補助所以它是漏網之魚那還有沒有其他的漏網之魚你們現在透過什麼樣的管道去宣傳讓地方政府或讓這些受災的企業知道他們可以來申請經濟部有幫將這個機器涵蓋在裡面"},{"start":682.539,"end":710.653,"text":"20萬還有利息的補貼都有在但他們不知道所以你們的這個宣傳看起來也是很有問題我希望這個個案待會我們就轉給你們好好的去跟廠商了解他說到目前為止都沒有人在關心他像孤兒一樣我覺得這個部分我們不應該有600億的預算還有漏網之魚就是沒有被幫助到接下來我要問的是在這次的風災當中我們看到地方裡面有些鄉鎮公所"},{"start":710.913,"end":736.414,"text":"他的避難收容處所非常非常的完全沒有辦法提供避難我們看到是役主鄉這是役主也是被重創的地方這個請院長看這個畫面他是一個大禮堂他叫中正堂當時役主因為受災非常的嚴重有很多的宗教團體很熱心去進行了公益役主的這樣一個活動"},{"start":737.535,"end":758.995,"text":"他就在一個大雨傾盆的一個大禮堂裡面非常簡陋 非常克難的在煮熱食要提供給災民吃這個看了讓人家覺得非常的心酸啊這個是我們現在中華民國我們這麼經濟繁榮的今天結果在嘉義縣的一個役足鄉他連一個避難處所長這個樣子"},{"start":760.632,"end":778.114,"text":"然後新盆大雨的時候 裡面也在下大雨這樣我們怎麼去提高我們的防災韌性而這件事情呢 這個易竹鄉鄉長他有跟內政部部來求助 來懲刑但是現在都沒有下文"},{"start":778.922,"end":796.195,"text":"沒有具體告訴他可不可以在這一次的條例裡面我們再重建一個真的讓將來有下一次的風災或是災難的時候讓我們的災民可以安心避難的據所沒有答案 沒有下文"},{"start":797.175,"end":822.234,"text":"這個就是我們現在的災後重建公司這個是公共設施有包含在這次的特別條例裡面那如果他跟工程會提出我們會來審議所以到底要跟內政部提出還是要跟如果在特別預算裡面執行機關是內政部但最後審核主管機關是工程會所以他是跟內政部陳情內政部有沒有轉給這個工程會因為特別條例才成立嘛特別預算今天還在審那已經陳情很久了"},{"start":823.827,"end":847.518,"text":"這筆預算今天還在審我知道啊 但是大家都知道特別條例之前大家都已經在審啦都知道要定啦我們請工程會那你們也下去看啊那一個一族鄉的鄉長就是跟中央官員的陳情然後都沒有下文 沒有回應我覺得這個不是做事情的態度跟方法這個內政部有他那個鄉長有跟內政部反應部長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":848.439,"end":858.92,"text":"我們了解這個部分但是因為預算還沒有辦法下來所以沒有辦法跟公共工程委會一起來合作但是如果是公共設施的話當然站在我們的立場一定要來協助"},{"start":859.349,"end":887.508,"text":"那我就希望你們給異族鄉鄉長一個正式的回覆喔因為這一個他也當面跟我澄清過我覺得如果中央政府沒有去受理沒有去正視這真的有點太離譜了因為我們要保證我們每一個人民居住在台灣這片土地下一回遇到災難的時候他都有一個安心的避難的住所那個那麼破舊的一個地方完全是不合時宜喔所以今天政委在這邊是不是可以承諾可以重建一個"},{"start":888.669,"end":916.101,"text":"真的是可以遮風避雨安全穩固的地方給藝竹鄉的鄉民可以嗎我們就看他的受損的狀況他是整個真的很破舊了他會特別來審議再來協助好那我希望你們就是要正式受理我想今天這個包括國民黨我們很快的提出特別條例而且很快的召開朝野協商院長也很快的就主持朝野協商大家只有一個共識我們要給這些受災的災民"},{"start":916.801,"end":926.068,"text":"就是真正的幫助我們要幫助他站起來我們要強化他的防災韌性可以抵擋下一次的風雨我希望這件事情已經給你們抽分"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":650,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（17時11分）謝謝主席。我們是不是有請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：院長好。院長，剛剛你在報告裡提到要替災民謝謝立法院，我想在整個重建過程當中，災民應該是最先被關照與幫助的對象。","我們攤開來看這次特別預算的編列，立法院之所以多給行政院，從560億變成600億，就是希望可以給災民更多照顧。但是我們攤開來看，現在這些弱勢戶重建家園的預算總共只有21億，這21億其實只占整體預算的3.5%，你認為這樣真的有照顧到災民嗎？之前在朝野協商時本席多次提醒，現在行政院願意幫忙修復毀壞的屋頂，但只限中低收入戶，在這樣的情況底下，事實上我來自嘉義，嘉義是我的故鄉。嘉義縣老年人口非常多，我親自去看過後發現，很多老宅裡面住的都超過六十五歲，有的甚至是七、八十歲的老人，他不見得有中低收入戶資格，而那是他僅存安身立命的房子！現在房子破了、漏水了、屋頂飛走了，卻不在這次你們全額補助的範圍內，真的非常辛苦。朝野協商時其實我有提出來，不過你們並沒有採納，做進一步的擴大補助，我想問為什麼？因為以全部的預算來看，事實上這是重中之重，我相信所有全國人民看到那個畫面，想要幫助的，就是這些受災戶與災民，這些是他們優先、最想幫助的對象。結果在你們的整體預算裡只占了3.5%，為什麼是這樣的編列？"],["卓院長榮泰：請主委來解釋一下這21億。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，弱勢戶相對於一般戶本來就比較少，一般戶申請了三、四萬戶，而弱勢戶大概就一千戶以內，所以本來就比較少。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：所有的弱勢戶不管拆或修繕，全部由政府負擔……"],["王委員育敏：這部分我沒有問題……"],["陳主任委員金德：有擴大，也就是低收跟中低收之外，特殊境遇、脆弱家庭，經社工評估有列冊的……"],["王委員育敏：這樣有多少呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：以臺南來講大概是500左右。"],["王委員育敏：所以你看看，它占你整體的比例還是很低啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，那就是這些弱勢戶。"],["卓院長榮泰：低收的部分。"],["王委員育敏：我要講的是，像嘉義縣是全國老人第一比例的地方，我當時在朝野協商時有建議，像這種家裡面住的都是老人，照道理政府也應該要提供幫忙，但是我只能說你們現在還是採取一個不是從寬的標準，是從嚴的標準、很限縮的標準，但是我只能講，我們現在臺灣對於中低收入戶的認定是非常嚴格的，我們真的可以納入法定貧窮人口數只有2.5%，我們跟其他國家比較起來，跟鄰近的日、韓相比，他們大概有10%，我們只有2.5%，所以你如果完全採取中低收入戶的標準，我只能告訴院長跟政委，有很多是邊緣的近貧，他實際的經濟狀況就是不好，但是完全被你們排除……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是關懷戶啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告……"],["王委員育敏：你的關懷戶不是從經濟的標準，那是特殊境遇，可能有一些他的需求，但是跟這個近貧還是不一樣的。"],["陳主任委員金德：近貧跟收入比較少的獨居老人這幾類的，以臺南來講，市府會全額去補助修繕。"],["王委員育敏：那嘉義縣呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：嘉義縣，當然嘉義縣政府如果可以編列的話，去修繕……"],["王委員育敏：嘉義縣那麼窮，它怎麼有辦法去編列？"],["陳主任委員金德：中央……"],["王委員育敏：如果你中央不提供補助，它怎麼有辦法？在這邊我要幫……"],["陳主任委員金德：那部分的比例很少，我們是講災損，不是所有的弱勢戶，就是房屋破損的，比方說嘉義縣申請的大概有5,000戶，其中弱勢是一定比例，通常這個都已經包含在內，不會單獨把他排除在外。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但是你補助的不夠嘛！所謂的從寬原則，你知道修一個屋頂要多少嗎？30萬起跳吧，那你現在最高的補助額度到多少，你知道嗎？只有10萬……"],["陳主任委員金德：不是……"],["王委員育敏：所以其實對於……"],["陳主任委員金德：如果給政府來修繕是完全免費。"],["王委員育敏：政府修繕的範圍就只有中低收入啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：包括，還有特殊境遇……"],["王委員育敏：一般民眾你有受理嗎？沒有啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：一般民眾是要媒介，一般民眾有……"],["王委員育敏：你只是媒合啊，你沒有補助嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：有補助，就是復原，10萬跟5萬啊！"],["王委員育敏：你沒有提高啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：看他的房屋破損程度。"],["王委員育敏：所以只有10萬嘛！我現在要告訴兩位的就是，以你們現在劃定的標準跟補助的範圍，對於災民來講是不夠的，你們所謂的從寬並沒有從寬。今天立法院給你們這麼多的預算，我覺得要分輕重緩急、優先順序，我個人認為……"],["陳主任委員金德：委員的意思是所有的一般戶都要政府來負責嗎？"],["王委員育敏：不是所有，但你們應該還要再擴大，我剛剛在提醒你了，中低收入戶的標準是非常嚴格的，我看到你的預備金還有30億，在這個預備金裡面，你應該同時告訴……這次最慘的就是嘉義縣跟臺南市，所以你應該給這兩個地方政府一定的金額，讓他們去看實際的狀況，有需求的民眾還補不夠的，應該要給他們這樣的彈性，這樣才是真正照顧到災民，如果你今天沒有這樣子做，我覺得就是為德不卒！我們今天所有立法院的好意，還提高了金額，但是在災民的眼中、在他們身上，其實拿到的補助是不夠的，我希望對於這個部分，你們是不是有這個空間可以再去檢討，因為你還有預備金。院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是保持整個運用的彈性，對於致災地區，如果我們整個的補助辦法還沒有辦法完全涵蓋，或是有更特殊的狀況的時候，這個我們就充分運用，請委員放心，絕對沒有地域之分、沒有縣市之分，我們一定是依照致災情形的需要來補助……"],["王委員育敏：我希望真正受災的災民可以得到充分的協助，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：會的，您放心。"],["王委員育敏：這個才是我們立法院這麼快速通過條例而且提高金額最大的用意。","第二個是從速的原則，我現在看到事實上的核發件數跟受理件數的落差還滿大的，在這當中，特別是像嘉義縣，現在受理的件數有9,000件，但核發只有五百多件，這個是統計到8月20號為止，我想問兩位的是，現在最大的困難是什麼？這麼的緩慢，現在已經過了50天了！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，行政院的20億，嘉義市1億、嘉義縣8億、臺南市10億，在7月25號錢就都已經撥下去了，到現在已經一個月了，嘉義縣的部分是受災的各鄉鎮公所在辦理，行政院的錢在一個月前就都已經撥到地方政府了，這個不是……"],["王委員育敏：那你有沒有了解為什麼現在速度這麼……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是中央政府在審查的。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，現在速度緩慢的原因是什麼？我覺得中央應該要去督導或協助地方怎麼樣加快這個速度，要不然你們的好意，你們說錢撥下去了，但是災民覺得手上沒有啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：所以臺南市政府有派簡任級的官員以及其他的同仁進駐到各區公所，我們也同樣要求嘉義縣政府，它必須派相關人員進駐到各鄉鎮公所。"],["王委員育敏：那他們有沒有做到？"],["陳主任委員金德：但嘉義縣各鄉鎮公所是民選首長，臺南市區公所是……"],["王委員育敏：是指派的。"],["陳主任委員金德：市長派的區長，稍有不同，所以我們會再跟……"],["王委員育敏：那你們就要加強輔導，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們再跟鄉鎮公所討論。"],["王委員育敏：因為這樣的效率，恐怕我們所有的好意，災民都感受不到，因為都沒有拿到。"],["陳主任委員金德：這裡面還有一個原因，有時候報的面積很難認定，承辦人員會特別謹慎，他受理之後會一件一件去看，所以這個……"],["王委員育敏：所以從速的原則就沒有落實嘛！因為你們在立法院一直說要從寬、從速、從優，但是看起來這個從速的原則並沒有落實，我希望你們可以好好督促。","另外，現在還有漏網之魚，我給你看一個個案，是在嘉義縣，這個業者專門收購稻殼，他把它重新製作之後，碳化這些稻殼，然後有一部分還提供給中鋼做煉鋼使用。但他在這次的風災裡面，大家看這些畫面，那些稻殼原物料全部泡水，倉庫一片狼藉，屋頂也破損，損失現在粗估超過三千萬。他收購的這些稻殼占全國的20%，是滿大間的一個工廠，但是到目前為止，他跟我陳情，他發生這麼大的事情，中央或地方沒有一個人去關心，然後要跟誰申請補助？我初步問了農業部農糧署，它後來說不是它的，它推給經濟部。","我現在就要問，像這樣子的一個受災企業還有多少？因為他從事的是稻殼收購，本來以為是農業部，結果農業部說不是它的、跟它無關，那現在是經濟部嗎？像這一類還沒有完全得到任何補助的，在你這次的整個條例當中，到底是哪一個部會管，然後可不可以接受補助、可以補助到多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：關於修繕的部分是針對民宅，並沒有包括……"],["王委員育敏：這些工廠怎麼辦、損失慘重怎麼辦？院長。"],["陳主任委員金德：就回到企業。"],["王委員育敏：那你們現在的補助辦法是什麼？可以補助多少？現在經濟部也沒有去關心，所以他們現在陳情，已經過50天了。"],["卓院長榮泰：對企業應該有一些協助，經濟部對企業……"],["王委員育敏：經濟部提供什麼協助？"],["何次長晉滄：是不是跟委員報告，針對這個部分我們有編列一筆錢，大概給企業補助20萬。另外還有一些……"],["王委員育敏：幾萬？"],["何次長晉滄：20萬。另外還有一個貸款的利息補貼部分，這個不足的部分，我想企業可以做貸款來融資。"],["王委員育敏：好，像這樣的企業，經濟部會受理，在這次條例裡面可以得到補助？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以它是漏網之魚。那還有沒有其他的漏網之魚？你們現在透過什麼樣的管道去宣傳，讓地方政府或是讓這一些受災的企業知道他們可以申請？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部有把像這樣的企業涵蓋在裡面，20萬還有利息的補貼，都有涵蓋在裡面。"],["王委員育敏：但他們不知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個如果是……"],["王委員育敏：你們的宣傳看起來也是很有問題，我希望就這個個案，待會兒我們就轉給你們。"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["王委員育敏：好好地去跟廠商了解，他說到目前為止都沒有人在關心他，像孤兒一樣。我覺得這個部分，我們有600億的預算，不應該還有漏網之魚，就是沒有被幫助到。","接下來我要問，在這次的風災當中，我們也看到地方有些鄉鎮公所的避難收容處所非常非常地完全沒有辦法提供避難。我們看到的是義竹鄉，這次義竹也是被重創的地方，請院長看這個畫面，它是一個大禮堂，叫中正堂，當時義竹因為受災非常嚴重，有很多宗教團體很熱心去舉行公益義煮的活動，就在大雨傾盆之下的一個大禮堂裡面，非常簡陋、非常克難地在煮熱食要提供給災民吃，看了讓人家覺得非常心酸，這就是中華民國、我們這麼經濟繁榮的今天，結果在嘉義縣的義竹鄉，連一個避難處所都長這個樣子，而傾盆大雨的時候，裡面也在下大雨！這樣怎麼去提高我們的防災韌性？這件事情，義竹鄉鄉長有跟內政部求助、陳情，但是現在都沒有下文，沒有具體告訴他，可不可以在這一次的條例裡面，我們再重建一個真的讓將來有下一次風災或是災難的時候，讓我們的災民可以安心避難的聚所，沒有答案、沒有下文，這個就是我們現在的災後重建工程。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是公共設施，有包含在這次的特別條例裡面，如果他跟工程會提出，我們會來審議。"],["王委員育敏：所以到底要跟內政部提出還是要跟工程會……"],["陳主任委員金德：如果是在特別預算裡面，執行機關是內政部，但最後的審核，主管機關是工程會。"],["王委員育敏：所以他是跟內政部陳情，內政部有沒有轉給工程會？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為特別條例才成立，特別預算今天還在審……"],["王委員育敏：他已經陳情很久了。"],["卓院長榮泰：特別預算今天……"],["劉部長世芳：特別預算還沒通過。"],["陳主任委員金德：特別預算今天還在審。"],["王委員育敏：我知道啊！但是大家都知道，特別條例之前，大家都已經在審了，都知道要訂了啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會請工程會直接跟……"],["王委員育敏：那你們也下去看一下啊！義竹鄉鄉長就是跟中央官員陳情，然後都沒有下文、沒有回音，我覺得這個不是做事情的態度跟方法，那位鄉長有跟內政部反映，部長知道這件事嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們了解這個部分，但是因為預算還沒有辦法下來，所以沒有辦法跟公共工程委員會一起來合作，但是這如果是公共設施的話，當然站在我們的立場，一定要來協助。"],["王委員育敏：我就希望你們給義竹鄉鄉長一個正式的回復，因為他也當面跟我陳情過，我覺得如果中央政府沒有去受理、沒有去正視，這真的有點太離譜了，因為我們要保證我們每一個人民居住在臺灣這片土地，下一回遇到災難的時候，他都有一個安心的避難住所，那麼破舊的一個地方，完全是不合時宜。今天政委在這邊，是不是可以承諾可以重建一個真的可以遮風避雨、安全穩固的地方給義竹鄉鄉民，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會看它受損的狀況……"],["王委員育敏：它整個真的是很破舊了。"],["陳主任委員金德：然後會特別審議，並再來協助。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們要正式受理。今天包括國民黨在內，我們很快地提出特別條例，而且很快地召開朝野協商，院長也很快地就主持朝野協商，大家只有一個共識，我們要給這些受災災民真正的幫助，我們要幫助他站起來，我們要強化他的防災韌性，可以抵擋下一次的風雨，我希望這件事情已經給你充分的預算，要好好的落實，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請何欣純委員質詢，徐巧芯委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e7900725010670f7f9be7691804860db32ef3fe55b262b105a4f3b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"16:55:36 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有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢議員好"},{"start":28.353,"end":50.12,"text":"院長好 首先我想先請教院長就是跟本席來自花東地區有關的問題請問這次災後復原重建特別預算的分配是否有充分的考量不同縣市的災損的程度還有有沒有哪一些客觀的標準畢竟這次風災除了沿海地區最嚴重的就是山區原住民的整個部落了"},{"start":50.78,"end":76.581,"text":"所以如何確保偏鄉還有我們弱勢的這些族群譬如我們花東這個整個地區還有山區的原鄉的部落的重建如何不被忽視呢委員的問題相當的長第一個災區的認定在條例裡面有提到我們會視它實際上自災的情況主管機關送到行政院來公告所謂災區就會適用"},{"start":78.8,"end":107.373,"text":"整個條例裡面相關的預算那所有災區所受到的這個傷害包括農損 包括污損 包括道路 包括水利我們都把它列到今年這次的特別預算裡面來支應所以如果是災區裡面還沒有辦法 災區以外沒有辦法在這個特別條例可以去做處理的我們還有年度的預算農業部還有農損交通部還有其他的這個預算可以來支應"},{"start":108.886,"end":137.985,"text":"因為裡面就是說這次的災後的復原重建的特別預算裡面我有看到有一筆特別是針對我們花蓮辦理的萬榮鄉的馬太安溪上游的艷澀湖的接測應變與土砂防治的經費有1.2億元我們很怕那個艷澀湖會潰堤下來所以我們包括我們的夢漾顧問花了很多心精神去研究認為它有沒有急迫性的危險即使他研究出來告訴我"},{"start":139.006,"end":156.411,"text":"除非下很大很大的雨並沒有急迫性的危險我們還是編的預算不要讓他造成現在根據農業部的整個跨部會的專家有諮詢的會議有去評估目前針對這一個他有可能會相當就是說他這樣的話一整座的藍化水庫的蓄水量的驗射壺的問題似乎"},{"start":157.711,"end":174.51,"text":"好像開出來的會議的時候是束手無策欸只能採取以強化監測警戒下游的防檢災的措施是現在是這樣的做主要的應變策略沒有錯 能不能說明一下因為我嘗試想過其他的方式甚至很大的方式但是很不敢去做大量嘗試"},{"start":175.251,"end":203.338,"text":"我跟委員報告針對馬太岩的部分我們上個禮拜開了一次會然後我們也正式成立一個應變小組跨部會的應變小組然後專家在看這個議題的時候相對的現在離溢流口大概還有30公尺左右那未來因為它的壩底比較深比較寬到1.7公里所以它未來如果說滿庫了以後它是溢流的方式不會直接潰堤的第一個說明第二個說明就是現在的上面的土非常軟"},{"start":204.358,"end":233.323,"text":"所以任何的機械都沒有辦法上去所以我們必須要等到它的土面 罷面的時候可以承載一些機械的時候才會去處理說是不是有第二個方案把這些溢流口逐步的往下降所以我們持續的會去觀測跟監測現在的水位然後如果說土堤比較硬的時候我們就會開始看看有沒有其他的工程方法可以來解決類似導引道之類的或其他的方式"},{"start":233.902,"end":257.577,"text":"但是如果聽這樣講的話其實院長你知道現在其實馬太安溪下游有分布在鳳林鎮還有光復鄉還有萬榮鄉這樣整個至少有7個村如果像遇到如果災情突然發生了這樣要立即的預防性的整個撤離的話像8月14號解除警戒讓民眾返家但是到現在真的其實這樣也沒有解決問題啦"},{"start":258.778,"end":281.093,"text":"而且其實我們花蓮的鄉親都是非常的遊行的一旦這整個發生了潰堤的時候造成大規模的土石流會衝擊到下游的鄉鎮造成嚴重的人命還有財產上面的損失這樣的話其實我看這個監測狀況如何還有關的進度和解決方式剛才這樣的回答我覺得還是沒有解決這樣整個的問題而且還是"},{"start":284.115,"end":307.395,"text":"滿危險的我是希望說不要把我們花蓮看作次等的公民因為我們的居住也是安全的這是人跟大自然的一個作戰那剛剛部長說了我們現在強力監測等到它上面這個地形能夠有所改善我們能夠嘗試其他方式的時候我們可以不排除嘗試其他的方式各種方式來讓它不具備危險"},{"start":308.816,"end":331.13,"text":"縱然有一天下大雨 很大的好雨又來它有急迫性的危險的時候我們會提前的希望下面的居民能夠撤離疏散這個也是必要做的那我們盡量在它可以處理的時候我們把它上游這個地形完整的時候能夠讓它有一個處理的方式那這個我們是持續在關心當中從大雨來之後都是這樣子的"},{"start":331.752,"end":340.077,"text":"那有沒有評估過說必須要強制遷村才安全呢還是說未來有沒有預定說要怎麼安置還是有遷村的整個計畫呢"},{"start":341.705,"end":371.128,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是除了在霸頂的監測我剛才說的等土堤比較硬機械可以上去的時候我們會嘗試去做一些工程方面的作為然後現在可以做的我們在下游的地區也會讓相關的這些河道能夠類似疏進的方式讓它未來能夠成長更多的水量而不會影響到附近的這些村莊現在是目前可以做的我再次強調你有沒有想過如果一瞬間突然下了很大的大雨呢"},{"start":371.462,"end":385.377,"text":"不會 因為它的壩底它不是一般的壩它的壩底有1.7公里所以它會溢流但是它不會瞬間潰堤這個是一個非常重要的所以我們會隨時監控的理由就在這裡"},{"start":387.222,"end":405.681,"text":"希望可以快點找出整個解決的方式讓他們的居住都能夠非常的安全我們也成立跨部會的部分我們真的是非常擔憂的我們甚至於請國防部在開會的時候也提供他們很多工兵方面的一個具體的經驗跟他後續可能會協助的我們都有在做這方面的事情"},{"start":407.182,"end":422.373,"text":"那我再次強調說這次行政院其實編列了幫助災民的災後重建的特別這個整個預算其實都是我們是很支持但是身為立委當然我們要監督政府的整個預算的責任當然最擔心的就是"},{"start":422.813,"end":447.83,"text":"就是怕說這些特別預算會不會變成執政黨的趁機打劫的軌跡這樣因為我們不太希望說政府能帶頭當國家級的詐騙集團如果是說趁機藉由這個風災的整個特別預算將原本要補助台電被刪減的千億的整個預算拐個彎或者過個水假救災之名然後將原本就不屬於這個風災災後的重建"},{"start":449.051,"end":463.588,"text":"計劃的這個整個混入到整個特別預算中補回來所以當然也不希望政府想說利用這一次的救災的整個預算完全的政治考量企圖可能或許會變取一些補助啊還是給特定的候選人"},{"start":464.048,"end":492.828,"text":"的選區綁裝甚至圖立特定的光電業者的損失和清理風災受損的光電板的處理整個費用我只想說先請教院長風災受損光電板的處理費用這個是政府買單嗎還是業者自行負責呢還有這些廢棄的光電板未來會放在哪裡呢還有如何處理還有造成會不會造成農業上面環境的污染呢這樣整個處理的時間是大約是多久呢"},{"start":493.908,"end":513.2,"text":"委員你這樣子一個沒有對象沒有標的一個假設實在無助於整個救災光電板那是屬於業者的財產他們要自己處理不處理我們是加重處罰請部長來說明報告委員那個光電板他目前現在一直一個在回收當中他的回收到最後的末端的回收大概92到99%"},{"start":515.141,"end":527.896,"text":"所以全部回收掉並不是說丟到農地去那個農地是他們借用的我們有告訴他你不能現場破碎所以已經重罰了所以他目前的那家業者已經被我們罰了九百萬他們的計畫書他們預計他們剛剛給我們的是九月五號前"},{"start":530.779,"end":547.575,"text":"他們承諾會清完但是它黃流很多次了所以我們會持續的給它壓力我們也希望未來像這個光電的因為這次屬於很特殊的一個極端的風災我們也希望未來能夠進行所有大型光電板的場域的總體檢這個也是我們努力的方向"},{"start":548.035,"end":563.346,"text":"所以到現在就是政府沒有買單啦只是說未來政府會不會買單絕對不會我跟委員保證跟全國委員保證這個政府絕對不會買單而且這個是他自己的財產他自己的付錢他的光碟板是他自己出的所以他基本上最後的處理他也要自己去買單謝謝"},{"start":566.479,"end":590.769,"text":"那再請問院長有關過去的治水和防災的預算上面的編列的問題因應全球的氣候的異常風災雨災受災的情況程度其實都是比以前是更強烈的所以平常的公務預算還有前瞻建設的特別預算中政府就有編了防災和救災的預算然後過去就是光是為了加速執行易淹水的地區過去就編列了有"},{"start":591.269,"end":620.749,"text":"易淹水地區的水患治理計畫8年有1160億的預算還有流域綜合治理特別預算編列了6年有660億的防災治水的計畫那農業部從98年起為了分期推動整體性的計畫所以光是一個農業部這16年來就已經累積投入了將近408億的預算這還沒有包含其他部會的編列的公務預算"},{"start":621.389,"end":646.562,"text":"然後經濟部水利署為了辦理水災智慧防災的計畫是109年到113年也編列了總預算高達30億的預算那還有近年來政府當然也編列了推動智慧防災相關計畫大約這樣也超過了百億那為什麼每次執政的團隊都是要等到災難發生之後我們會臨時編了這一個"},{"start":648.463,"end":667.434,"text":"特別的預算去亡羊補牢呢因為剛才本席有舉例那些預算這些預算的話當初編列這些的時候難道都是去打水漂了嗎還是因為是治水無效呢這是否證明了行政院平常防災計劃能力的不足還是趁火打劫國庫呢那院長可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":668.942,"end":692.487,"text":"我等一下請部長說我說委員還是有地方淹水還是有很多地方淹水但是您如果到各地去看看有更多的地方淹水的情況比過去少很多退水的時間比過去快很多這都是事實不能完全抹煞過去一二十年來所有治水工程的所有人員的努力我們編列的預算有產生它的效果"},{"start":692.927,"end":710.235,"text":"那現在我們看到是源頭末端抽水機等等還有一些問題要處理明年開始我們針對縣市管核酸要加強整治這個是我們一步一步的來做我不敢保證沒有淹水但是我說的就是要最小淹水面積最快退水時間最高安全標準"},{"start":710.635,"end":725.84,"text":"那請部長來說我跟委員補充說明一下如果說我們看那個天然災害的部分從十年前到現在現在天然災害有一個非常大的特點就是它的極端天候裡面的急降雨所謂急降雨就是短時間所下的雨量"},{"start":726.32,"end":755.68,"text":"那這個雨量往往會超過當地的這些相關的排水的這個相關的承載量所以每一年以農業部來講每一年我們大概編了120億是在做這些治山防洪的相關的工作那這個工作做的不是說沒用因為台灣的很多這種所謂土石流潛勢區跟大規模崩塌區我們都有在監控那監控的過程中有時候當它攤方的時候我們會及時的去處理"},{"start":756.622,"end":758.091,"text":"那這個部分都是用這樣的一個經費來處理"},{"start":759.335,"end":787.37,"text":"對啊最主要我就是說那麼多年來都是有在治水然後也花了很多的預算的經費像我們來看一下在特別針對當初編列的前瞻基礎預算裡面的執行的情況像過去蔡英文執政時期編列前瞻基礎的預算的話總計有8400億其中治水工程有關的就有2000多億而且針對防洪剛才還有講的整治河川還有治洪池這些項目"},{"start":787.87,"end":810.461,"text":"其實南部都有提出水患的整個改善計畫有五個縣市提出來的工程就有高達1416億元了那我們地方政府預算這樣分配的情況來說明前三名竟然就是這次風災淹水最嚴重的三個縣市分別就是嘉義還有台南還有高雄"},{"start":810.981,"end":825.451,"text":"那院長這樣是不是很諷刺因為這三個地方政府拿了中央最多的補助的經費然後一個颱風來就完全整個破功了而且監察院7月公佈調查中也指出台南市政府109年到111年"},{"start":828.133,"end":846.555,"text":"獲得中央補助雨水下水道的輕於工程款好像有遭到非法的挪用沒有專款專用這樣那院長請問一下行政院說有沒有好好的去了解這件事情還有這項特別預算是不是都會被地方政府挪用甚至拿去不當的使用呢"},{"start":847.316,"end":874.861,"text":"這是一個百年來難見的一個風災但那是颱風從台灣的南部台灣海峽直上從嘉義布袋入口這是百年來難見的颱風如果你有到地方去你有在現場看到下雨的情形那雨水用倒的你就會知道這不是任何的防洪工程在當初所設計施工但是我們那麼多年的治水上面的預算這些錢等於沒有用嘛我只能說如果沒有那些預算"},{"start":875.501,"end":891.476,"text":"那可能大家的痛苦會更痛苦那我們現在希望把那些當基礎我們往上堆疊把該做的事情把它徹底的完成但是就算完成也沒有任何人保證台灣是一個永遠不會淹水的地方因為極端氣候就是如此"},{"start":892.076,"end":913.005,"text":"讓我們體諒所有的救災人員的辛苦我們更感受災民的辛苦政府該做的必須要做給多一點的鼓勵比用這樣的方式打擊這些士氣要好很多我真的懇請委員不要用這種方式認為過去做的都沒有效這是非常非常不適當的一個比喻我可以請經濟部來講講水利署的股東"},{"start":914.319,"end":931.163,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們過去的治水其實跟地方跟中央是要一起把這個地方管的核酸跟中央管的核酸一起把它從整個系統性的治水的觀點來看尤其現在整個極端氣候的環境"},{"start":957.564,"end":957.584,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":606,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（16時55分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：院長好。首先我想先請教院長的，就是跟本席來自花東地區有關的問題。請問這次災後復原重建特別預算的分配，是否有充分考量不同縣市的災損程度？有沒有哪些客觀的標準？畢竟這次的風災除了沿海地區，最嚴重的就是山區原住民部落了，所以如何確保偏鄉還有弱勢的這些族群，譬如我們花東這整個地區，還有山區原鄉部落的重建如何不被忽視？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的問題相當地長。第一個，災區的認定在條例裡面有提到，我們會視它實際上致災的情況，由主管機關送到行政院，我們來公告，所謂的災區就會適用整個條例裡面相關的預算，災區所受到的所有傷害，包括農損、污損、道路、水利，我們都會列到這次的特別預算裡面來支應，所以如果是災區以外，沒有辦法在這個特別條例去做處理的，我們還有年度的預算，農業部還有農損，交通部還有其他的預算可以來支應。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為這次的災後復原重建特別預算裡面，我有看到一筆特別是針對花蓮辦理的──萬榮鄉馬太鞍溪上游的堰塞湖監測應變與土砂防治經費，有1.2億的預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們很怕那個堰塞湖會潰堤下來，所以包括我們的李孟諺顧問，也花了很多精神去研究，即使他研究出來告訴我們，認為它沒有急迫性的危險，除非下很大、很大的雨，否則並沒有急迫性的危險，我們還是編了預算，不要讓它造成……"],["林委員憶君：但是院長，根據農業部整個跨部會的專家諮詢會議評估，目前針對這個部分，它有可能會有相當於一整座南化水庫蓄水量的堰塞湖問題，會議結果似乎是束手無策，只能採取強化監測警戒下游的防減災措施，現在是採這樣的方式作為主要的應變策略。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯，因為我們嘗試想過其他的方式，甚至很大的方式，但還是不敢去做大量的嘗試，請農業部說明一下。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，針對馬太鞍溪的部分，我們上個禮拜開了一次會，也正式成立了一個跨部會的應變小組。專家在看這個議題的時候，相對的，現在離溢流口大概還有30公尺左右，因為它的壩堤比較深、比較寬，大概1.7公里，所以如果滿庫了以後，它會是溢流的方式，不會直接潰堤，這是第一個說明。","第二個說明就是現在上面的土非常軟，所以任何的機械都沒有辦法上去，我們必須要等到它的土面、壩面可以承載一些機械的時候才會去處理，看是不是有第二個方案把這些溢流口逐步地往下降，所以我們會持續地觀測跟監測現在的水位。如果土堤比較硬的時候，我們就會開始看看有沒有其他的工程方法可以來解決，或是用類似導引道之類的，或採其他的方式。"],["林委員憶君：但是這樣聽起來的話，院長你知道其實現在馬太鞍溪下游，分布在鳳林鎮、光復鄉還有萬榮鄉，整個至少有7個村，如果災情突然發生了，要立即預防性撤離的話，像8月14號解除警戒，才讓民眾返家，但是到現在其實也沒有真的解決問題，而且其實我們花蓮的鄉親都是非常憂心的，一旦整個發生潰堤的時候，造成大規模的土石流，會衝擊到下游的鄉鎮，造成嚴重的人命還有財產上面的損失，但是我看這個監測狀況以及有關的進度和解決方式，以剛才這樣的回答，我覺得還是沒有解決整個的問題，而且還是蠻危險的。我是希望不要把我們花蓮人看做次等的公民，因為我們的居住也要是安全的……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，您言重了，這是人跟大自然的作戰，剛剛部長說了，我們現在強力監測，等到它上面地形能夠有所改善，我們能夠嘗試其他方式的時候，我們不排除嘗試其他的方式、各種方式來讓它不具備危險。縱然有一天下大雨、很大的豪雨又來，當有急迫性的危險時，我們會提前希望下面的居民能夠撤離疏散，這個也是必要做的。我們儘量在它可以處理，當上游地形完整的時候，能夠讓它有一個處理的方式，這個我們是持續在關心當中，從大雨來之後都是這樣子的。"],["林委員憶君：那有沒有評估過必須要強制遷村才安全？還是未來有沒有預定要怎麼樣安置？還是有遷村的整個計畫呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，除了在壩頂的監測之外，我剛才說等土堤比較硬，機械可以上去的時候，我們會嘗試去做一些工程方面的作為。然後現在可以做的，我們在下游的地區也會讓相關的這些河道能夠用類似疏濬的方式，讓它未來能夠承載更多的水量，而不會影響到附近的這些村莊，這是目前可以做的。我再次強調……"],["林委員憶君：你有沒有想過，如果一瞬間突然下了很大的大雨？"],["陳部長駿季：不會，它不是一般的壩，它的壩體有1.7公里，它會溢流，但是不會瞬間潰堤，這個是非常重要的，因此我們會隨時監控的理由就在這裡。"],["林委員憶君：希望可以快點找出解決的方式……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會積極……"],["林委員憶君：讓他們的居住都能夠非常的安全……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們也成立跨部會的部分……"],["林委員憶君：這次這樣我們真的是非常擔憂。"],["陳部長駿季：然後我們甚至還請國防部，我們在開會的時候也請他們提供很多工兵方面具體的經驗，跟後續他們可能會協助的事項，我們都有在做這方面的事情。"],["林委員憶君：我再次強調，這次行政院編列了幫助災民災後重建的特別預算，其實我們都是很支持，但是身為立委，當然我們有監督政府整個預算的責任，最擔心的就是怕這些特別預算會不會變成執政黨趁機打劫的詭計。因為我們不太希望政府帶頭當國家級的詐騙集團，趁機藉由整個風災的特別預算，將原本要補助台電但被刪減的千億預算，拐個彎或者過個水，假救災之名，然後將原本就不屬於這個風災災後重建計畫混入特別預算中補回來。所以，當然也不希望政府利用這一次救災的預算，完全的政治考量，企圖或騙取一些補助，但還是給特定候選人的選區綁樁，甚至圖利特定光電業者的損失和清理風災受損光電板處理的費用。","我先請教院長，風災受損光電板的處理費用，這個是政府買單嗎？還是業者自行負責呢？這些廢棄的光電板未來會放在哪裡呢？如何處理？會不會造成農業上面環境的污染呢？整個處理的時間大約是多久呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這樣子沒有對象、沒有標的的一個假設，實在無助於整個救災。光電板那是屬於業者的財產，他們要自己處理，不處理我們是加重處罰，請部長來說明。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，光電板目前業者正在回收當中，它的回收、到最後末端的回收大概是92%到99%，是全部回收掉並不是丟到農地去，那個農地是他們借用的，我們有告訴它不能現場破碎，所以已經重罰了，目前那家業者已經被我們罰了900萬。他們剛剛給我們的計畫書是承諾預計9月5號前會清完，但是它黃牛很多次了，所以我們會持續的給它壓力。我們也希望未來像光電……因為這次屬於很特殊的、極端的風災。我們也希望未來能夠進行所有大型光電板場域的總體檢，這個也是我們努力的方向。"],["林委員憶君：所以到現在政府沒有買單，但是未來政府會不會買單？"],["彭部長啓明：絕對不會，我跟委員保證，也跟全國人民保證，這個政府絕對不會買單，而且這是他們自己的財產，他們自己付錢，光電板是他們自己出的，所以最後的處理也要自己去買單，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：好。再請問院長，有關過去治水和防災預算上面的編列問題，因應全球的氣候異常，風災、雨災的受災情況和程度都比以前更強烈，所以在平常的公務預算還有前瞻建設的特別預算中，政府就有編列防災和救災的預算，過去光是為了加速執行易淹水的地區，因此編列了易淹水地區的水患治理計畫，8年1,160億的預算，還有流域綜合治理特別預算也編列了6年660億的防災治水計畫。","農業部從98年起，為了分期推動整體性計畫，光是一個農業部，這16年來就已經累積投入將近408億的預算，這還沒有包含其他部會編列的公務預算。經濟部水利署為了辦理水災智慧防災計畫，自109年到113年也編列了總預算高達30億的預算。近年來政府當然也編列並推動智慧防災相關計畫，也大約超過百億。為什麼每次執政的團隊都是要等到災難發生之後才臨時編列特別預算去亡羊補牢？剛才本席舉例的那些預算，對於這些預算，當初編列這些難道都是去打水漂了嗎？還是因為治水無效？這是否證明了行政院平常防災計畫能力的不足？還是趁火打劫國庫？院長可不可以簡單說明一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我等一下請部長說明。委員，還是有很多地方淹水，但是您如果到各地去看看，有更多地方淹水的情況比過去少很多，退水的時間比過去快很多，這都是事實，不能完全抹煞過去一、二十年來所有參與治水工程人員們的努力，我們編列的預算有產生效果，現在我們看到是源頭、末端抽水機等等，還有一些問題要處理。明年開始，我們針對縣（市）管河川要加強整治，我們一步一步的來做，我不敢保證沒有淹水，但是我說的就是要做到最小淹水面積、最快退水時間、最高安全標準。我請部長來說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員補充說明一下，如果我們看天然災害的部分，從10年前到現在，現在天然災害有個非常大的特點，在極端天候裡面的急降雨，所謂急降雨就是短時間所下的雨量，這個雨量往往會超過當地排水的承載量，所以以農業部來講，每一年我們大概編了120億在做這些治山防洪的相關工作，這個工作做了不是沒有用，因為臺灣有很多土石流潛勢區跟大規模崩塌區，我們都有在監控，監控的過程中，有時候當它坍方時，我們會及時的去處理，這個部分都是用這樣的經費來處理。"],["林委員憶君：對啊，最主要的就是那麼多年來都是有在治水。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["林委員憶君：也花了很多的預算經費，我們來看一下，針對當初特別編列的前瞻基礎預算的執行情況，過去蔡英文執政時期編列前瞻基礎預算總計有8,400億，其中治水工程有關的就有兩千多億，而且針對防洪，剛才有講的整治河川還有滯洪池這些項目，其實南部都有提出整個水患的改善計畫，有5個縣市提出來的工程就高達1,416億元。從地方政府預算分配的情況來說明，前三名竟然就是這次風災淹水最嚴重的3個縣市，分別是嘉義、臺南還有高雄。院長，這樣是不是很諷刺？因為這3個地方政府拿了中央最多的補助經費，一個颱風來就完全破功了，而且監察院7月公布的調查也指出，臺南市政府109年到111年獲得中央補助雨水下水道的清淤工程款好像有遭到非法挪用，沒有專款專用。院長，請問一下，行政院有沒有好好的去了解這件事情？還有這項特別預算是不是都會被地方政府挪用，甚至拿去不當的使用呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是百年來難見的一個風災，丹娜絲颱風從臺灣南部、從臺灣海峽直上、從嘉義布袋登陸，是百年來難見的颱風。如果您有到地方去，有在現場看到下雨的情形就會知道，雨水是用倒的，不是任何防洪工程當初所設計施工而現在能彌補的……"],["林委員憶君：但是那麼多年來，我們在治水上所花的這些錢等於沒有用！"],["卓院長榮泰：我只能說如果沒有那些預算，可能大家會更痛苦！我們現在希望把那些當基礎往上堆疊，把該做的事情徹底完成，但就算完成，也沒有任何人能保證臺灣可以永遠不淹水，因為極端氣候就是如此！我們體諒所有救災人員的辛苦，我們更感受到災民的辛苦，且政府該做的就必須要做，所以請多給一點鼓勵，如此會比用這樣的方式去打擊士氣要好很多。我真的懇請委員不要用這種方式，認為過去做的都沒有效，這是非常非常不適當的比喻。我可以請經濟部來講講水利署的苦衷。"],["林次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們過去的治水其實需要地方跟中央一起，把地方管的河川、中央管的河川一起從系統性的治水觀點來看。尤其是在現在極端氣候的環境下，因為強降雨，對承洪的能力一直在提高，所以我們希望委員能支持這項預算，讓我們可以把水利工程做得更加完善。"],["林委員憶君：我是一定會支持，只是這些治水預算不能都沒有用，畢竟那麼多年了，而且人民的安全很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，確實有改善，雖然還沒很徹底，但我們會繼續加強。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請王育敏委員質詢，何欣純委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276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我們敬愛的韓院長行政院卓院長所領軍的行政團隊各位同仁 新聞界的朋友楊瓊瑜發言院長首先邀請卓院長麻煩請卓院長再次備選梁委員好"},{"start":33.157,"end":54.251,"text":"院長好 這一次丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨重創了中南部跟花東地區行政院也提出了600億的特別預算立法院也在8月15號三讀通過總統也在8月19號也正式公佈"},{"start":55.191,"end":74.587,"text":"那所以呢幫助災民是第一優先這是非常的重要但是我們也要針對於所編列的預算我們一起來討論首先本席要請教這些你們所編列的項目真的是全部提供災後復原所使用嗎請做說明這個部分"},{"start":76.583,"end":105.177,"text":"當然農損的部分還有房屋修繕的部分直接眼睛看見的是這個還有電線的修復通訊的修復這個都是另外這是大嶼下載很多山區更有很多原住民區所以我們對於交通道路跟原住民的區域的部分也做了一些相關的補助社福呢社福的部分呢是這個都包括在這裡"},{"start":106.963,"end":121.168,"text":"可是你的回答並不是那麼精準啊因為你說這是針對原住民不只如此 全民要照顧所以本市首先提問的就是說你這些項目是真的都是提供災後復原使用嗎"},{"start":122.268,"end":150.771,"text":"所以本席要來提問也就是說是不是有裡面包括了早應該做的治水啊排水啊你的水利工程還有也就是原本已經做了但是成效不佳的還有一些的項目也把它編入到再後重建如果真有如此將舊案包裝成為再後的工程那我們行政院也要給國務院說明清楚啊"},{"start":152.127,"end":171.264,"text":"很多是因為這次的強風降雨之後毀損的很多的道路 很多的溪流它改道了這當然也符合我們這一次的特別條例所編的預算這個都要搶修搶險都要把它救回來無論過去做了多少它總是還有一些源頭末端的工程要做"},{"start":171.744,"end":197.989,"text":"所以源頭末端他並不是在這一次直接相關所以間接相關也好不管沒有相關也好本期是希望所有的預算都是人民的納稅錢我到各地去包括那個核心的整治我都說這個錢這邊的錢要放在眼前所看到核心的整治對於中長期的部分我們希望放到未來的四年一千億縣市管核酸改善工程裡面去"},{"start":198.109,"end":218.105,"text":"你還是沒針對本期的提問針對這600億是不是全數都用在災後復原那其中你的回答似乎有部分不是但是本期還是告訴你我們全力的支持我們的災民全力的支持復建但是錢必須要透明的給國人說明清楚接下來本期就要請教"},{"start":219.826,"end":240.012,"text":"接下來本校要請教電力跟交通它的逆性我們要如何去強化因為在這一次的颱風當中將近有百萬戶受損停電甚至在嘉義也有11萬戶是長期長時間的停電非常的辛苦"},{"start":240.612,"end":263.289,"text":"那電線桿也數千支導斷在這樣的情況之下 本席兩個議題跟你請教第一個高鐵是國家非常重大的一個交通命脈在這一次的這個颱風就癱瘓了那未來我們要怎麼樣能夠防止不再這樣的事件發生這是第一個第二個本席要請教"},{"start":263.849,"end":281.503,"text":"在這樣的時間在這樣的情況之下我們的電力在發生導斷這麼三千多支的電線卡那麼這麼百萬戶的來停電那當時我們到底有沒有災前的一個安全檢測"},{"start":283.264,"end":304.772,"text":"這都是非常重要我們不要等到發生的事情我們支持的編列了110億來作為交通跟電力的一個災禍的整治復原這我們都願意但是我仍然就希望我們事先還是要做好功課請教針對高鐵針對我們這些電線塔導斷的這些問題請院長說明清楚高鐵當然是我們要維護整個電網的韌性供電的正常"},{"start":312.415,"end":326.673,"text":"所以在電網韌性方面我們除了現在搶修搶險之外我們已經請台電全國性的地下電網的一個評估希望能夠在未來展開那至於說全國性的地下電網展開"},{"start":329.036,"end":357.561,"text":"地下電網的評估對 地下電網評估展開評估因為這個不是一天兩天的事情有沒有預計什麼時候會出來呢他現在有對明年有初步的一個期程明年會初步出來全國地下電網沒有 初步期程說哪些優先地方可以先做那還要有充裕的這個經費才能做那關於電塔倒下來的時候這個很多是電線桿本身被風追倒也有一些是路數 行道數把電線桿給弄倒了"},{"start":357.981,"end":378.93,"text":"所以這個加強 要中央 台電跟地方政府都要合力在風災之前 颱風來之前 要整修整個電線跟渠道變導你講的這個 終於我們兩個意見是一樣的你必須將這次慘痛的教訓我們要怎麼樣去做檢測 這非常的重要"},{"start":380.247,"end":390.435,"text":"跟水溝一樣啊 台風要來 你趕快去清水溝清了它不會堵住 不會回堵 不會淹水這是各縣市政府都在做的縣市政府也要負起這樣的效率"},{"start":391.518,"end":413.336,"text":"對 所以我們在台電的這個部分呢你導斷了數千支那我們未來要怎麼做我們看的是第一個搶救第二個未來要怎麼做有建議 除了電網的地下之外就是這個電線桿的韌性能不能加強有沒有辦法設定說讓它不要一次次全排倒下接區斷性的做一個比較強化的固定"},{"start":414.056,"end":421.185,"text":"本席聽到您有要開始地下整個電網的一個評估我也希望將評估報告給本席那針對於這個高鐵"},{"start":425.56,"end":453.959,"text":"報告委員 高鐵其實它的韌性相對於其他的運具來說是比較強的啦已經發生事情了你還說比較強報告委員 您說的這是單一事件這一次的事件是這個樣子它不是因為風力太強它是因為有一個物品因為風吹過來去打到它的電線上面所以它必須要停止那我們在很短的時間裡面把障礙物清除完之後就又復始了那天的狀況就是這個樣子"},{"start":455.24,"end":480.036,"text":"交通尤其高鐵是非常重要台灣非常重要的一個交通系統所以您不管任何的這個原因應該我們要誠懇的去檢討怎麼樣讓它不再發生讓民眾可以安心這是本席的要求接下來本席要跟院長討論救命錢不能等農損的補助我們知道"},{"start":481.076,"end":509.21,"text":"農民非常的辛苦台灣以農立國這非常的重要所以因此在農損的方面我們要怎麼樣迅速快速協助我們的農民非常重要你看到本席的旁邊上面我們七八月是英植玉米正在採收的時候當我們的農民真要採收的時候打開一看我真的真的真的大家不知所措整區都沒有辦法收成因為他的玉米需已經"},{"start":511.131,"end":533.693,"text":"這個臭蛋上面的玉米果發霉再剝開下面的玉米因為泡水的關係全部發芽兩三天就發芽全區都沒有了一年的收成就沒有了旁邊是什麼院長你看旁邊那個瓜上面瓜藤上面是什麼"},{"start":535.152,"end":557.35,"text":"旁邊的藤上面是什麼他種的黑黑的黑黑的那是什麼我告訴你本集告訴你那是南瓜南瓜因為雷暴雨我們的土地都是水沒有辦法呼吸沒有辦法提供養分給我們的藤藤沒有辦法給果實所以小顆的掉下來爛掉了有細菌"},{"start":558.328,"end":585.139,"text":"大顆的落在那個藤上面可是也因為雷暴雨一直沖所以它也裂國了在這種情況之下我們的農民苦不堪言所以我具體建議針對於農損我們必須要立即尤其簡化這個程序怎麼簡化我們有四方來查你已經全區九成九都已經沒有收成了"},{"start":586.36,"end":605.031,"text":"我當場要求不要在市區再去查了這樣子會讓我們浪費很多的時間我們必須在第一時間協助農民做什麼協助他們復耕把這些細菌趕快清除這是農民非常勇敢請教院長怎麼辦"},{"start":606.505,"end":633.56,"text":"是不是應該要簡化程序在非常實習的時候 簡化程序讓我們的農民可以盡快的拿到現金救助第二個 協助他們盡快的復耕 請做說明好 部長是不是程序簡化到什麼程度我跟委員報告 現在我們在簡化的時候我們也一直請公所這邊就是用農民只要拍的照片上傳APP對 那現在很多公所他還是不願意認他還要去現場"},{"start":634.787,"end":650.823,"text":"所以我們中央跟地方沒有合作啊我們農民苦不堪言啊我連要護根我都有困難啊所以我們已經他們當初害怕的時候我們已經在天然災害救助辦法裡面我們一直在宣導而且一直在宣導沒有成效啊"},{"start":652.403,"end":678.68,"text":"所以一個結論我知道我們的這個農業部長他非常的專精那我拜託院長我用拜託的農民非常的辛苦血本無歸而且他還要去復耕連土地都細菌那麼多所以我拜託我們在這一次要好好去盤點像我們的整個他的藤全部塌掉了流掉了那我們要不要補助他"},{"start":679.52,"end":708.26,"text":"所以我要求第一個我們在先進救助的時候時間速度要快第二個復耕協助復耕速度要快簡化程序第三個就這一次的教訓我們實際上這麼樣的一個地球暖化這麼樣的一個雷暴雨在這樣子情況之下我們要怎麼樣重新去盤點怎麼協助我們的農民來讓他們可以繼續有這個勇氣繼續耕作下去這程序必須持續的簡化"},{"start":708.94,"end":721.957,"text":"最持續的講話地方政府配合的程度跟效率我們也希望能夠經由互相的溝通彼此提高好 加強宣傳跟溝通接下來本校要請教重新的進度務必要透明因為我們現在"},{"start":724.531,"end":752.283,"text":"政府有很多的特別預算我們分為三年這一次我們分為三年分為三年當然以往特別預算因為分年所以會有拖拖拉拉的這個情況院長我相信你也了解這個情況所以本席具體建議在這一次我們的預算你們所編列出來的是191億316億跟93億跨年度我們全力的支持的時候我們希望這個預算必須要公開透明"},{"start":752.743,"end":768.24,"text":"因為每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢你必須要劃在刀口上本期具體來建議你必須定期公開我們的這個特別預算它的進度必須定期公開以及送立法院可以做得到嗎"},{"start":769.005,"end":786.981,"text":"好 我請各部位要匯集起來我們由政委來負責定期向國人說明請委員能夠支持所有的災民都會謝謝大院在這麼快的速度通過的特別條例我們一起加油要定期公開以及送立法院接下來本席要說因為極端氣候一個颱風 一個豪雨"},{"start":787.501,"end":815.076,"text":"如果我們在基礎建設的韌性它是不足的那又是下一輪的一個災難產生我們不願意所以本校建議院長你們應該從這一次的災害那麼這一次的重建呢能夠得到教訓也就是針對長期的防災氣候調適你必須要把它結合在一起而不是只有頭痛一頭腳痛一腳所以本校要請教你們的長遠防災規劃是什麼"},{"start":818.917,"end":845.237,"text":"最上位的概念總統府的氣候變遷委員會他會就氣候變遷所造成的影響來做成政策性的決定那之後我們就會強化現在的防災機制其實現在跟過去十年以來我們的中央應變中心的體制是比較完整因為實際上地球暖化的因應也讓我們很大的挑戰所以必須要如此的去結合去做長遠的規劃"},{"start":846.678,"end":872.725,"text":"最後一個議題本集跟你討論最近大家一直在討論特別預算本集上週也跟你討論過你跟地方的一般性補助款那現在呢每一次跟你們討論到中央跟地方的分配額你們都一直在抹黑在野黨甚至財化法的修法你認為當時你說財化法的修法在還沒有修以前是最好的版本請教院長你現在仍舊認為是最好的版本嗎"},{"start":873.705,"end":888.055,"text":"請說明我認為當時那個版本是我們執行起來那現在你還認為是最好的版本嗎現在新的裁判法現在你認為到目前為止現在新的裁判法對一些非六都以外的地區是不公平的喔"},{"start":888.826,"end":914.084,"text":"你這麼說我要告訴你你們自己執政黨的委員郭國文委員你看他的臉書他說因為要藍白對抗所以禁止他們提案他們也想修也禁止行政院提案到底是真的假的有沒有這回事行政院有備妥相對應責方式有沒有禁止他們提案我們行政院對財化法有備妥方案交由黨團來跟協商但是那個時候"},{"start":915.754,"end":937.505,"text":"所以財富法是必須要檢討嗎院長 所以財富法是必須要檢討嗎 對不對我們一直認為財富法可以檢討可以檢討 好 你一個可以檢討 我們一起加油台中市一年給了兩千多億給我們六七百億我們拿回應當的一個公平補助這是合理的 而且是公正的就你那一句話 可以檢討的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（16時39分）院會主席即我們敬愛的韓院長、行政院卓院長所領軍的行政團隊、各位同仁、新聞界的朋友，楊瓊瓔發言。院長，首先邀請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長好。這一次丹娜絲颱風跟七二八豪雨重創了中南部跟花東地區，行政院提出了600億的特別預算，立法院也在8月15號三讀通過特別條例，總統也在8月19號正式公布，幫助災民是第一優先，這是非常重要的，但是我們也要針對所編列的預算一起來討論。","首先，本席要請教，這一些你們所編列的項目真的是全部提供災後復原所使用嗎？請做說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然在農損的部分還有房屋修繕的部分，直接眼睛看見的是這個，還有電線的修復、通訊的修復等等都是，另外這次大雨下在很多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有道路、交通、社福。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，這次大雨下在很多山區、很多原住民區，所以我們對於交通、道路跟原住民區域的部分也做了一些相關的補助在裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：社福的部分呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個都包括在這裡。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可是你的回答並不是那麼精準，你說這是針對原住民，不只如此，全民要照顧！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說道路……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席首先提問的就是，你這一些項目真的都是提供災後復原使用嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以本席要來提問，是不是裡面包括了早應該做的治水、排水等等水利工程，還有原本已經做了但是成效不佳的，也把這些項目編入在災後重建，如果真有如此，將舊案包裝成災後工程，那行政院也要給國人說明清楚，請做說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：很多是因為這次強風降雨之後毀損的，很多的道路、溪流改道了，很多潰堤了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這當然也符合我們這一次特別條例所編列的預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：這些搶修、搶險都要把它救回來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：無論過去做了多少，總是還有一些源頭、末端的工程要做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以源頭、末端並不是在這一次直接相關……"],["卓院長榮泰：但我們現在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：間接相關也好，或是沒有相關也好，所有的預算都是人民的納稅錢，我希望要跟國人說明清楚！"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，我到各地去，包括河溪的整治，我都說這邊的錢要放在眼前所看到的河溪整治，對於中長期的部分，我們希望放到未來的四年一千億縣市管河川改善工程裡面去，但是眼前看到的危險就要用這個。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你還是沒針對本席的提問，這600億是不是全數都用在災後復原？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：依你的回答似乎有部分不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，都是！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是本席還是告訴你，我們全力的支持我們的災民、全力的支持復建，但是錢必須要透明的給國人說明清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：也請委員在審查的時候能夠合理的審查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教電力跟交通的韌性要如何去強化，因為在這一次的颱風當中，將近有百萬戶受損、停電，甚至在嘉義也有11萬戶是長期、長時間的停電，非常的辛苦，電線桿也數千支倒斷。在這樣的情況之下，本席兩個議題跟你請教，第一個，高鐵是國家非常重大的交通命脈，在這一次的颱風就癱瘓了，未來我們要怎麼樣防止、不再讓這樣的事件發生？這是第一個。第二個本席要請教，在這樣的時間、在這樣的情況之下，我們的電力發生倒斷三千多支電線桿、有百萬戶停電，當初我們到底有沒有災前的安全檢測？這都是非常重要，我們不要等到發生了事情……我們支持編列110億作為交通跟電力的災後整治復原，這我們都願意，但是我仍舊希望事先還是要做好功課。針對高鐵、電線桿倒斷的這些問題，請院長說明清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：高鐵當然是我們要維護整個電網的韌性、供電的正常，所以在電網韌性方面，我們除了現在搶修、搶險之外，我們已經請台電進行全國性地下電網的評估，希望能夠在未來展開，至於電線……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全國性的地下電網展開？"],["卓院長榮泰：地下電網的評估。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，地下電網的評估……"],["卓院長榮泰：展開評估，因為這個不是一天兩天的事情……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有預計什麼時候會出來呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年有初步的一個期程，有一個初步的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明年初步會出來？全國地下電網。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，初步期程是說哪些地方可以優先做，還要有充裕的經費才能做，關於電塔倒下來的時候，很多是電線桿本身被風吹倒，也有一些是路樹、行道樹把電線桿給弄倒了，所以這個要加強，中央、台電跟地方政府都要合力，在風災之前、颱風來之前就要整修電線跟行道樹。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，你講的這個，我們兩個的意見終於是一樣的，你必須吸取這一次慘痛的教訓，我們要怎麼樣去做檢測，這非常的重要，跟水溝一樣，颱風要來了，你要趕快去清水溝，清了它就不會堵住、不會回堵、不會淹水，這是各縣市政府都在做的。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以縣市政府也要負起這樣的效率。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以台電的部分，倒斷了數千支，那我們未來要怎麼做？我們看的是未來，第一個是搶救，第二個是未來要怎麼做？"],["卓院長榮泰：曾經有建議，除了電網地下化之外，就是電線桿的韌性能不能加強？有沒有辦法設定讓它不要一次全排倒下，能不能區段性的，做一個比較強化的固定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，本席聽到您有要開始整個電網地下化的評估，我也希望您將評估報告給本席。針對於高鐵的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實高鐵的韌性相對於其他運具來說是比較強的，不過如果颱風……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都已經發生事情了，你還說比較強？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您說的這是單一事件，這次的事件是這個樣子，它不是因為風力太強，它是因為有一個物品被風吹過來，打到它的電線上面，所以它必須要停駛，我們在很短的時間裡把障礙物清除完之後，就又復駛了，那天的狀況就是這個樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，交通部分，尤其高鐵是臺灣非常重要的一個交通系統，所以不管任何原因，我們都應該要誠懇地去檢討，怎麼樣讓它不再發生，讓民眾可以安心，這是本席的要求。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，本席要跟院長討論，救命錢不能等，農損的補助，我們知道農民非常的辛苦，臺灣以農立國，這非常的重要，因此在農損方面，我們要怎麼樣迅速、快速協助我們的農民是非常重要的，你看本席的簡報，7、8月是硬質玉米正在採收的時候，當我們的農民正要採收的時候，打開一看，真的大家不知所措，整區都沒有辦法收成，因為玉米鬚已經乾了，上面的玉米果發霉，再撥開下面的玉米，因為泡水的關係全部發芽，兩、三天就發芽，全區都沒有了，一年的收成就沒有了。旁邊是什麼？院長看旁邊那個，瓜藤上面是什麼？旁邊的藤上面是什麼？他種的黑黑的，黑黑的那是什麼？本席告訴你，那是南瓜，南瓜因為雷暴雨，導致我們的土地都是水，沒有辦法呼吸，沒有辦法提供養分給我們的藤，藤沒有辦法給果實，所以小顆的掉下來爛掉了有細菌，大顆的落在那個藤上面，可是也因為雷暴雨一直沖，所以它也裂果了，在這樣的情況之下，我們的農民苦不堪言。","所以我具體建議，針對於農損，我們必須要立即，尤其簡化這個程序，怎麼簡化？我們有四方來查，全區已經九成九都沒有收成了，我當場要求不要再去四區查了，這樣子會讓我們浪費很多的時間，我們必須在第一時間協助農民做什麼？協助他們復耕，趕快把這些細菌清除，這些農民非常勇敢，請教院長要怎麼辦？是不是應該要簡化程序，在非常時期的時候簡化程序，讓我們的農民可以儘快的拿到現金救助；第二個，協助他們儘快復耕，請做說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長，程序簡化到什麼程度跟委員說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在我們在簡化的時候，也一直請公所這邊……農民只要拍了照片，從照片就可以認了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：上傳app？"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在很多公所還是不願意認，還要去現場。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼？因為中央跟地方沒有合作，所以農民苦不堪言啊！"],["陳部長駿季：第一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他連要復耕都有困難啊！"],["陳部長駿季：他們當初害怕的時候，我們已經在天然災害救助辦法裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要去宣導嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一直在宣導，而且用的人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一直在宣導，但沒有成效啊！所以一個結論，我知道農業部長非常專精，我拜託院長，我用拜託的，農民非常的辛苦，血本無歸，而且他還要去復耕，連土地都細菌那麼多，所以我拜託，你們這一次要好好去盤點，像他的藤全部塌掉了、流掉了，你們要不要補助他？因此我要求，第一個，在現金救助的時候，時間速度要快；第二個，協助復耕速度要快、簡化程序；第三個，就這一次的教訓，實際上這麼樣的地球暖化、這麼樣的雷暴雨，在這樣的情況之下，我們要怎麼樣重新去盤點、怎麼協助我們的農民，讓他們可以有勇氣繼續耕作下去，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：程序必須持續的簡化，至於地方政府配合的程度跟效率，我們也希望能夠經由互相的溝通而彼此提高。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，加強宣傳跟溝通。接下來本席要請教，重建的進度務必要透明，政府有很多的特別預算，這一次分為三年，以往特別預算因為分年，所以會有拖拖拉拉的情況，院長，我相信你也了解這個情況，所以本席具體建議在這一次的預算，你們所編列出來的是191億、316億及93億。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跨年度。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們全力支持的時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望這個預算必須要公開透明，因為每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢，你必須要花在刀口上。本席具體建議，你必須定期公開特別預算的進度，必須定期公開及送立法院，可以做得到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我請各部會要彙集起來，由政委來負責，定期向國人說明，當然也請委員能夠支持……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，定期公開。"],["卓院長榮泰：所有災民都會謝謝大院在這麼快的速度內通過了特別條例的特別預算。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一起加油，要定期公開及送立法院。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要說，因為極端氣候的關係，一個颱風、一個豪雨來，如果我們在基礎建設的韌性是不足的，那又會是下一輪的災難產生，我們不願意，所以本席要建議，院長，你們應該從這一次的災害重建能夠得到教訓，也就是針對長期防災、氣候調適，你必須要把它結合在一起，而不是只有頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳。本席要請教，你們長遠的防災規劃是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，最上位的概念，總統府的氣候變遷委員會會就氣候變遷所造成的影響來作成政策性的決定，之後我們就會強化現在的防災機制，其實現在跟過去十年以來，中央應變中心的體制是比較完整，跟地方的聯繫比較有效。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為實際上，地球暖化的因應也讓我們有很大的挑戰，所以必須要結合去做長遠的規劃。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題本席要跟你討論，最近大家一直在討論特別預算，本席上週也跟你討論過地方的一般性補助款，每一次跟你們討論到中央跟地方的分配額，你們都一直在抹黑在野黨，甚至是財劃法的修法，當時你說財劃法在還沒有修以前是最好的版本，請教院長，你現在仍舊認為是最好的版本嗎？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為當時那個版本是我們執行起來最有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在你還認為是最好的版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在新的財劃法？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認為到目前為止……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在新的財劃法對一些非六都以外的地區是不公平的喔！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你這麼說，我要告訴你，你們執政黨的郭國文委員，你看他的臉書，他說因為要藍白對抗，所以禁止他們提案，他們也想修，也禁止行政院提案，到底是真的假的？有沒有這回事？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院有備妥相對應的方式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有這回事？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們委託……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有禁止他們提案？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院對財劃法有備妥方案，交由黨團來協商，但是那個時候立法院內部的朝野協商碰到瓶頸。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，所以財劃法是必須要檢討的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一直認為財劃法可以檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以檢討？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，一定要可以檢討，我們一起加油！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是檢討是要把……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺中市一年給了兩千多億，給我們六、七百億，我們拿回應當的公平補助，這是合理的，而且是公正的，就是你那一句話「可以檢討的」，我們一起來檢討！"],["卓院長榮泰：臺中市明年的預算也多了好幾百億，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請林憶君委員質詢，王育敏委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e79035b15941def1ba5d7691804860db32efe185d5441d45b825641dcf140a8ea5f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"16:23:23 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竹崎 大埔等等這一些的產業的合作社也好或者是這個發展協會或者是各商圈他們急需要的幫助"},{"start":60.425,"end":83.155,"text":"院長現在在太平雲梯也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區那他每年大概要支付六百萬租金給這個阿里山的管理處然後再加上三千萬的行政的營運的成本成本就是三千六百萬左右那類似這樣子的情況還有包含足及的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等這些都是要向阿館處承租"},{"start":84.275,"end":105.918,"text":"可是近年不僅是一年這其實這三年來風災基本上夏季都是非常的嚴重那只要有颱風警報那必須就是以安全為主就要關閉所以說遊客他是大幅減少那這一次的颱風他不僅是颱風當天那還有後續的豪雨等於說七八月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯"},{"start":107,"end":125.375,"text":"再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器柱還有這些帆布設施這些全部都是有我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第4條第9項的文化觀光振興當中是不是可以把這類的重要的觀光設施的紓困來給予納入"},{"start":128.939,"end":155.357,"text":"報告委員針對太平的這個地方這個梯的部分我們這個租金會跟他們來討論看怎麼樣減免他們也可以提出申請業者可以提出申請因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多的天災跟風災的狀況另外就是硬體受損的部分我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者或者是說用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通"},{"start":155.717,"end":172.114,"text":"好 謝謝部長我是希望說比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助讓他們過衝擊現在剛才提到其實不只是交通部經濟部也有推出受災店家的援助方案每戶他是補助一萬元"},{"start":172.995,"end":196.41,"text":"不過是要稅籍的證明稅籍證明的部分其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商他們是一個稅籍下是有多個攤位所以我認為說這個申請條件其實也不是我們是一般的鄉親都不斷的來提出來好像過於嚴苛也就是說很多有在經營的這個攤商他們都有在跟合作社都有往來他不一定有獨立的這個稅籍他可能沒辦法請領"},{"start":197.651,"end":220.059,"text":"所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈協會有往來但不一定有獨立的稅籍我是不是建議是不是准以合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式呈報當然是要切解來去予以輔助符合我們崇寬認定的精神不知道院長或者是部長次長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":221.315,"end":230.44,"text":"跟委員報告 一些市場攤販的話只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管 有案的話其實我們都可以充寬來認定"},{"start":232.196,"end":262.039,"text":"好 現在就希望就是可以考慮一下我們的建議納納路來考量的去做一個想法那再來就是災害保險因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的那有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造的協助的景觀等等那我們是希望說未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的這個天災保險機制讓政府補助一部分的保費那這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速的恢復運作不知道院長怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":263.99,"end":284.897,"text":"這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做這個保險的部分確實因為每次遇到天災之後我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害不管是營業方面或者是說硬體設備方面如果有保險的話對他們來說當然是相對是比較安全一些比較有保障一些這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助"},{"start":286.919,"end":293.231,"text":"謝謝那院長接下來我要就是要反映地方的公署的一些問題那這可能跟政府採購法第105條有關聯"},{"start":296.63,"end":318.032,"text":"開口合約跟緊急採購制度他們有遇到一些瓶頸我舉個例子就是說風災過後中央的經費其實是很快速的到位但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題還有錢但沒辦法動工怎麼說呢比方說我是山區選出的但是其實山海都是一線很多海區他們最基本的路燈來講"},{"start":318.993,"end":342.819,"text":"他沒有完全恢復為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復因為過去基層的公所他們的限於年度的開口合約也就是說一規定他必須要派工給原得標廠商可是原本只負責零星維修因為從來沒有從嘉義登入過從來沒有從嘉南平原登入過他現在是要面對數百倍數千倍的突發的維修量的時候量能是不足的"},{"start":343.579,"end":354.839,"text":"那行政部門可能會說如同我剛剛講的依照政府採購法第105條有賦予機關用緊急採購的權利但是現在的公所的地方公務員他不敢"},{"start":355.846,"end":376.325,"text":"這樣子放手做事 為什麼第一個是違約風險可能被原廠商控告第二個是圖利疑慮他可能沒有經過招標程序再就是事後究責接下來還要接受政風的單位調查第四就算有 有這個魄力去做迫於公所有限的人力他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件他實在騰不出手來做這些事情"},{"start":377.046,"end":404.286,"text":"所以 院長我的第一個問題是說行政有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候它有天然的就是先天就有這個能量的限制它沒有辦法緊急搶修所以過了兩個月了不是公所不願意而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做那在法律上當然是有這樣子的法律條文那實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣子的做法所以說為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第105條"},{"start":406.358,"end":434.539,"text":"有幾個難題他們公所有反應就是第一個法規沒有明確說明假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候機關要如何合法的把超出的部分直接適用緊急採購這是第一個部分那可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動再來就是災後的公所人力勘災通報都忙不過來他很難在短時間內完成大量新的巡駕還有溢價還有簽約的流程那我今天講這麼多原因是因為我們跟鄉公所不管是鄉長"},{"start":437.219,"end":457.572,"text":"都有類似這樣的問題出現那不只是嘉義縣 嘉義縣是鄉那我想台南市就是區那這樣的問題就確實存在院長 我們是想要請教一下有沒有辦法 請你們研擬一下怎麼樣去介入主導怎麼樣是讓第一線的公務人員能夠敢做事 能做事"},{"start":458.254,"end":478.788,"text":"好委員所說剛剛除了人力的問題我們另外來來討論來設法之外這種緊急的採購開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於的嚴謹或者說應該還有更可以有彈性但是也要在執行上是可行的作者院長我們請工程會"},{"start":480.51,"end":508.54,"text":"來做一個討論但是我們就為什麼不敢因為沒有潛力沒有潛力的話就會有剛才提到這樣的氣候要嘛就是這樣的天災對 要嘛就是後面的陣風但是如果由行政院他提出一個標準的流程依流程規章辦理的話相公所就有機可循就是他就知道說有什麼樣法律如果沒有法律至少有一些規章跟一些辦法那就比較好去從事在有安全集合的機制底下我們在前頭的"},{"start":509.6,"end":533.652,"text":"盡量把它開放出來這個速度我們希望加速恢復他們的家園這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討之前我們有提過相公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量再來可能就是要跟災害就關於電信電信的韌性的相關的政策這個部分要請教院長其實院長其實根據各個新聞報導在我們嘉義布袋"},{"start":534.537,"end":559.984,"text":"那幾個電信業者不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍像是之前一段時間台南的七股它那個地區是沒有訊號的也就是說現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡就是說有些可能工股比較多的他願意去投資儘管在偏遠地區他願意去投資更多的基地台比方說中華電信現在有34796座"},{"start":562.044,"end":584.582,"text":"占全市長的42.4%其他的電信包含像遠傳是2萬多相差是1.2萬座所以說各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大的差別的我現在問題在於說現在的市場機制沒有辦法來去保證說偏遠地方或者是說人口不集中的地方它的通訊任性的時候政府應該要扮演什麼角色"},{"start":585.282,"end":593.41,"text":"或者是說政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任"},{"start":594.833,"end":622.051,"text":"是 跟委員報告在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度這個是大概從電信法時期以來從80幾年以來一直都在推進目前這個業務也雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部但是NCC跟數位部都有密切在合作在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭我們都要求在偏鄉地區要有增加網路建設的一些容量"},{"start":623.451,"end":638.177,"text":"委員提到第二部分,在非偏鄉的部分的建設,因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式,比如說相關民間的業者或國際一些測數的評比,會讓業者有個他律自律的機制。"},{"start":643.639,"end":655.49,"text":"另外如果說它網路品質不好,民眾會跟NCC來申訴,這個申訴量也是變成是一個約束業者來不斷改進的一個動力。"},{"start":657.488,"end":674.501,"text":"可是剛才我提到的如果這樣可以有效的約束業者的話那為什麼他們的投資還是一樣所以這個是我們現在有沒有有效的辦法因為現在已經看到狀況是這樣子表示說現在過去你剛剛提到的這些機制沒有成功的要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資"},{"start":676.16,"end":690.883,"text":"是的 就是这一部分的话在投资的产业复杂方面过去在数位被成立之前我们在相关的一些前瞻预算有所补助叫他们要在重要的设施或者偏乡继续要加持建筑我应该是这么说好了"},{"start":691.423,"end":713.838,"text":"未來這個是義務喔它不是只是他們只是做降本求利而已它是符合公共性的要求所以它有強制性的覆蓋性的這個覆蓋率的義務還有一些備援能力的指標我希望你們能夠有強制性的這個數字去要求最基本的這個社會公義它是公家的國家的這個平寬國家的這個資源委員剛剛講到這個未來是他們的責任"},{"start":715.539,"end":734.385,"text":"也是我們共同的責任我說過這次的風災我們發現政府各項甚至包括民生設施的任性不足所以民間業者要負起這個責任他拿了相當大的特許的權利他就必須負起這樣的責任我請通常會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區"},{"start":735.405,"end":757.866,"text":"如果他沒有把他的網速服務給他穩定提升的話將來我們在這個地方所造成的城市韌性還是不足所以用這個標準要去跟他要求提出一個改善的計畫因為我們不講過去我們講未來現在有這個問題我們就來把它解釋覆蓋率重要的指標速度這個是民眾直接有感受到的沒有就是沒有不夠就是不夠我要要求業者負起責任"},{"start":759.127,"end":770.685,"text":"謝謝 院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部"},{"start":774.47,"end":803.069,"text":"如果我們單看水平的棚架的網市或者是塑膠布的溫網市為主的這些農業的統計全台被害面積是495公頃加以現在397公頃所以是各縣市之水現在他們的反應就是我們的農友們反應復耕的貸款程序是非常的繁瑣還會增加基層農會的負擔特別是現行的簡易式的塑膠布溫網市每分地貸款90萬可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網市"},{"start":803.689,"end":807.756,"text":"他必須要在額外辦理不管是專業農帶啊或者是一般性貸款等等那"},{"start":809.005,"end":834.602,"text":"如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復健貸款跟專業的農貸或者是一般性貸款的兩個文件其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾所以想請教院長是不是可以檢討或者是調整一下政策讓受債農友如果他有意願直接改建為結構型人物往事的時候能夠放上規定跟申請流程直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元減少行政作業上的重複跟不便"},{"start":835.262,"end":844.669,"text":"因為如果他們現在就要重建短時間又要錯過最佳時機是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的營運部長你怎麼看這個部分"},{"start":845.976,"end":874.009,"text":"我跟委員報告就是您剛才說的就是有一些運往是他在他在這次巡圍以後他想要直接升級的部分那這個升級的部分的專案專案貸款的部分那我之前也跟農金署談過他們也同意就是他以他最後升級的那個那個標的強固形的話就用強固形的那個標準來處理而不是用原來復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款所以這個部分已經有解決"},{"start":875.657,"end":878.194,"text":"再來就是貸款要點修正扣的適用性"},{"start":879.518,"end":906.64,"text":"其實風災之後一開始沒有信心就是要用資金或者是立即重建他們可能會盤點完損失之後評估完市場之後才願意要投資根據耐災性的結構型設施就像我們剛才提到的這種可是現在根據農民組織跟農企業天然災害復耕的貸款要點裡面有說農友必須要受貸證明文件開立一日的15日內辦理貸款如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的但後來又改變心意"},{"start":907.361,"end":935.755,"text":"可能會超過15日的限制沒有辦法使用不知道部長針對這個部分這個部分我想我們我也跟農經署講過就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候你可能會考慮比較多所以在時間上只要他有拿到那個受災的證明然後他的時間是可以延長而且只要他在一段這個時間不會說一定是15天那我也不希望說要變成一個月兩個月因為他們特別是現在"},{"start":945.8,"end":945.82,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（16時23分）你好，請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長好。上次我們主要是針對農業，這次則是針對災後觀光產業復興方案來跟院長做討論，其中主要是針對我們嘉義縣，特別是山區，也是受到風災影響很重要的地方，包含我們的太平、竹崎、大埔等等，這一些產業合作社也好，或者是發展協會，或者是各商圈，他們亟需要幫助。","院長，現在在太平雲梯，也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區，它每年大概要支付600萬租金給阿里山管理處，再加上3,000萬的行政營運成本，所以成本就是3,600萬左右；類似這樣子的情況，還有包含竹崎的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等，這些都是要向阿管處承租，可是近年來，不僅僅是這一年，其實這三年來基本上夏季的風災都是非常的嚴重，只要有颱風警報，必須就是以安全為主，就要關閉，所以遊客大幅減少。這一次的颱風不僅僅是颱風當天，還有後續的豪雨，等於說7、8月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯；再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器具還有帆布設施，這些全部都有。我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第四條第九項的文化觀光振興當中，是不是可以把這類重要觀光設施的紓困予以納入？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對太平雲梯的部分，我們會跟他們來討論看租金怎麼樣減免，他們也可以提出申請，業者也可以提出申請，因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多天災跟風災的狀況。另外就是硬體受損的部分，我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者，或者用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設，這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長，我是希望比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助，讓他們度過這個衝擊。剛才提到其實不只是交通部，現在經濟部有推出受災店家的援助方案，每戶是補助1萬元，不過要稅籍證明，稅籍證明的部分，其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商，他們是一個稅籍下有多個攤位，所以我認為這個申請條件，其實也不是我們，是一般的鄉親都不斷地提出來好像過於嚴苛，也就是說很多有在經營的攤商，他們都有在跟合作社往來，不一定有獨立的稅籍，他可能沒辦法請領，所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況，大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈、協會有往來，但不一定有獨立的稅籍，我是不是建議准許合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式陳報，當然是要切結來去予以補助，符合我們從寬認定的精神，不知道院長或者是次長有什麼樣的看法？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，一些市場攤販只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管、有案的話，其實我們都可以從寬認定。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，現在就希望可以考慮一下我們的建議，納入考量的想法。再來就是災害保險，因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的，有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造協助的景觀等等，我們是希望未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的天災保險機制，讓政府補助一部分的保費，這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速地恢復運作，不知道院長怎麼看這件事情？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做保險的部分，確實因為每次遇到天災之後，我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害，不管是營業方面或者是硬體設備方面，如果有保險的話，對他們來說當然是相對比較安全一些，比較有保障一些，這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。院長，接下來我要反映地方公所的一些問題，這個可能跟政府採購法第一百零五條有關聯，開口合約跟緊急採購制度，他們有遇到一些瓶頸，我舉個例子，風災過後，中央的經費其實是很快速地到位，但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題，它有錢但沒辦法動工，怎麼說呢？比方說我是山區選出的，但是其實山海都是一線，很多海區最基本的路燈來講，沒有完全恢復，為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復？因為過去基層公所限於年度的開口合約，也就是說依規定它必須要派工給原得標廠商，可是原本只負責零星維修，因為從來沒有從嘉義登陸過，從來沒有從嘉南平原登陸過，它現在面對數百倍、數千倍的突發維修量的時候，量能是不足的，行政部門可能會說……如同我剛剛講的，依照政府採購法第一百零五條有賦予機關緊急採購的權力，但是現在公所的地方公務員不敢這樣子放手做事，為什麼？第一個是違約風險，可能被原廠商控告；第二個是圖利疑慮，他可能沒有經過招標程序；再來就是事後究責，接下來還要接受政風單位的調查；第四，就算有這個魄力去做，迫於公所有限的人力，他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件，他實在騰不出手來做這些事情。所以，院長，我的第一個問題是行政院有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候，先天就有能量的限制，它沒有辦法緊急搶修，所以過了兩個月了，不是公所不願意，而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做，在法律上當然是有這樣的法律條文，但實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣的做法，所以為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第一百零五條，公所有反映幾個難題：第一個，法規沒有明確說明，假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候，機關要如何把超出的部分直接合法的適用緊急採購？這是第一個部分，可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動。再來就是災後的公所人力，勘災、通報都忙不過來，他很難在短時間內完成大量新的詢價、議價，還有簽約流程。我今天講這麼多的原因是因為我們跟鄉公所，不管是鄉長、鎮長都有類似這樣的問題出現，不只是嘉義縣，嘉義縣是鄉，我想臺南市就是區，這樣的問題確實存在。院長，我們想要請教一下，有沒有辦法請你們研議一下怎麼樣去介入主導、怎麼樣讓第一線公務人員能夠敢做事、能做事？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所說的，剛剛除了人力的問題，我們另外來討論、來設法之外，這種緊急的採購、開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於嚴謹，或者說應該還可以更有彈性，但是也要在執行上是可行的才對……"],["陳委員冠廷：或者院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請工程會來做討論，好不好？"],["陳委員冠廷：但是為什麼不敢？因為沒有前例，沒有前例的話就會有剛才提到的，要不就是圖利，要不就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：要因應這樣的氣候、這樣的天災來……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，要不就是後面的政風，但是如果由行政院提出一個標準流程，依流程規章辦理的話，鄉公所就有跡可循，他就知道有什麼樣法律，如果沒有法律，至少有一些規章跟一些辦法，那就比較好去從事。"],["卓院長榮泰：在有安全稽核的機制底下，我們在前頭的，儘量把它開放出來，我們請工程會來研議，有些地方都需要討論。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個速度……我們希望加速恢復他們的家園，這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討，之前我們有提過鄉公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量。","再來就是關於電信韌性相關政策的部分要請教院長，院長，其實根據各個新聞報導，在我們嘉義布袋的幾個電信業者，不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍，像之前有一段時間，臺南七股地區是沒有訊號的，也就是現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡，就是有些可能公股比較多的，他願意去投資，儘管在偏遠地區，他願意去投資更多的基地臺，比方說中華電信現在有3萬4,796座，占市場的42.4%，其他的電信，包含像遠傳是兩萬多，相差1.2萬座，所以各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大差別的。現在的問題在於，現有的市場機制沒有辦法保證偏遠地方或者是人口不集中的地方其通訊韌性的時候，政府應該要扮演什麼角色？或者是政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任，那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度，這個大概是從電信法時期以來，從八十幾年以來一直都在持續推進，目前這項業務雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部，但是NCC跟數位部都有密切合作，在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭，我們都有要求在偏鄉地區要增加網路建設的一些容量。委員提到的第二個部分，在非偏鄉部分的建設，因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式，比方說民間相關業者或者國際的一些測速評比，會讓業者有個他律、自律的機制。另外，如果它的網路品質不好，民眾也會跟NCC申訴，這個申訴量也變成是一個約束業者不斷改進的動力。"],["陳委員冠廷：可是剛才我提到的，如果這樣可以有效地約束業者的話，為什麼他們的投資還是一樣？所以我們現在有沒有有效的辦法？因為現在已經看到的狀況是這樣子，表示過去你剛剛提到的這些機制，沒有成功地要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，這一部分的話，在投資的產業輔導方面，過去在數位部成立之前，我們在相關的一些前瞻預算有所補助，要求他們在重要的設施或者偏鄉地區要加速建設。"],["陳委員冠廷：我這麼說好了，未來這個是義務，不只是求利而已，這是符合公共性的要求，所以它有強制性的覆蓋率的義務，還有一些備援能力的指標，我希望你們能夠有強制性的數字去要求最基本的社會公益，它是公家的、國家的頻寬、國家的資源。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，如委員剛剛所講的，未來是他們的責任，也是我們共同的責任，我說過這次的風災，我們發現政府各項，甚至包括民生設施的韌性不足，所以民間業者要負起這個責任，它拿了相當大的特許權力，它就必須負起這樣的責任，我請通傳會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區，如果它沒有把網速服務穩定提升的話，將來這個地方的城市韌性還是不足，所以要用這個標準去要求它提出一個改善的計畫。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝院長，因為我們不講過去，我們講未來，現在有這個問題，我們就來把它解決，覆蓋率、重要的指標、速度，這是民眾直接有感受到的，沒有就是沒有、不夠就是不夠，我們就來做改進。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們會要求業者負起責任。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。院長，我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論，這次風災過後，農友們關心快速恢復，就是復耕復建等等……"],["主席：請農業部長備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：請農業部，如果我們單看水平的棚架網室或是塑膠布溫網室為主的這些農業統計，全臺被害面積是495公頃，嘉義縣占397公頃，是各縣市之最，現在農友們反映復耕的貸款程序非常繁瑣，還會增加基層農會的負擔，特別是現行的簡易式塑膠布溫網室每分地貸款90萬，可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網室，他必須要再額外辦理不管是專業農貸或是一般性貸款等等，如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復建貸款跟專業農貸或是一般性貸款，需要兩個文件，其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾。所以想請教院長，是不是可以檢討或是調整一下政策？讓受災農友，如果他有意願直接改建為結構型溫網室的話，能夠放寬規定跟申請流程，直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元，減少行政作業上的重複跟不便，因為如果他們現在就要重建，短時間又要錯過最佳時機，是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表，讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的因應，不知道部長你怎麼看這個部分？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛才說的，就是有些溫網室在這次損毀以後，他想要直接升級的部分，這個升級的專案貸款部分，我之前也跟農金署談過，他們也同意，就是以他最後升級的標的，強固型的話就用強固型的標準來處理，而不是用復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款，所以這個部分已經有解決。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。再來就是貸款要點修正後的適用性，其實風災之後一開始沒有信心，就是要用資金或者是立即重建，他們可能會盤點完損失、評估完市場之後，才願意要投資更具耐災性的結構型設施，就像我們剛才提到的這種，可是現在根據農民組織及農企業天然災害復耕復建貸款要點，農友必須要在受災證明文件開立翌日的十五日內辦理貸款，如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的，但後來又改變心意，可能會超過十五日的限制，沒有辦法適用，不知道部長針對這個部分有怎麼樣的看法？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我也跟農金署講過，就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候，你可能會考慮比較多，所以在時間上，只要他有拿到受災的證明，他的時間是可以延長的，而且這個時間不會說一定是十五天，我也不希望又變成一個月、兩個月，特別是現在溫室的工很難找，可能會拖半年，所以只要拿到受災戶證明的話，他來貸款我們就會同意。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。卓院長請喝水。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢，林憶君委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e790fba090cd5ee797047691804860db32efe185d5441d45b825ea2fa0b0c1a4ccb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"15:56:00 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謝謝主席請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢不好意思 請問一下今天經濟部有沒有過來有次長有來是次長請經濟部備詢王委員好"},{"start":36.449,"end":62.59,"text":"好 院長 次長在我們這次災後重建這個預算裡面也會比非常重要的就是因為呢這次它缺電的時間非常多很長所以呢在特別預算裡面有編列了就是防災韌性就是有關於電網韌性相關的預算那我們把它算一下大概"},{"start":64.059,"end":78.038,"text":"全部加起來超過100億109億1720萬這是有關於電網韌性的部分在我們的災後重建基金重建預算裡面"},{"start":79.359,"end":93.632,"text":"另外我们现在还有一个特别条例也送过来当然很多人讲是普发现金跟支援产业因应对等关税但是其中又是有一个电网任性"},{"start":95.133,"end":105.337,"text":"200億所以我們追加預算 對不起兩個特別預算災後重建跟強化韌性特別條例兩個預算309億要補貼給電網韌性那我們都知道在"},{"start":112.739,"end":133.845,"text":"上一次今年度的台電的1000億的預算裡面撥補1000億我們把它刪掉所以我想請問一下這個電網韌性真的是用於電網韌性還是變相的撥補這是第一個問題第二個問題我想請問院長您知不知道"},{"start":134.847,"end":148.27,"text":"台電在過去曾經推出超過5600億的一個電網韌性方案你知道那請問次長這個方案已經執行幾年了"},{"start":149.956,"end":173.528,"text":"跟委員報告這個方案已經從111年我們有編列這個預算到現在已經第4年那最主要我們是把過去集中式的電網希望能夠把它改成分散式的電網也就是這邊講到第一項分散工程那第二項強固工程的部分就是一些老舊的設施那我們要把它汰換甚至我們要擴充一些我現在問你的是"},{"start":174.628,"end":191.831,"text":"他一共是幾年的計劃五千六百多億幾年計劃是跟委員報告這本來是十年的計劃我們希望把它縮短成六年現在要縮短六年執行到第四年了用了多少錢"},{"start":195.463,"end":203.61,"text":"我們回去再提供資料給委員連你用多少錢你都不知道但是你現在要跟我們再要309億所以我要問的是"},{"start":210.072,"end":236.608,"text":"從111年台電就已經針對電網韌性部分就是因為過去這樣很多小動物小松鼠蛇什麼穿山甲一大堆的所以說要用電網韌性也用了5645億我們政府還參加台電的增資對不對為了要增加這些錢我只問錢去哪裡了"},{"start":237.751,"end":242.734,"text":"為什麼如果按照十年計劃每一年起碼有超過560億在執行然後執行到現在你還要錢"},{"start":247.216,"end":261.544,"text":"跟我們報告 這裡面的110億是針對這一次那麼大的電塔倒下來還有3000多根電桿倒下來 要去秋戶的錢任性條例的 是我們要針對幾個科學園區我們發覺任性不足 我們要把它加強"},{"start":270.268,"end":283.709,"text":"那您說的那個本來10年5600億我們把它縮短4年到現在應該是縮短總共6年 因為執行2年那你到現在連錢多少 花了多少錢都那個部分我們會請台電你花多少錢都沒有辦法告訴我"},{"start":285.672,"end":310.018,"text":"就只是一味的要錢原來強化的計畫逐年在進行所以前兩部分是新增加出來的想法電文任性起碼要了300億這兩個特別條例5645億錢花到哪裡去錢花了什麼你現在把它變成6年花了多少錢我也都不知道我們請台電馬上整理出來向委員報告請盡快整理那是逐年該做的事情所以我們一再講"},{"start":311.238,"end":336.483,"text":"我們為什麼要監督對不對 我們為什麼要審查預算不是刪預算 叫做亂刪預算我這個話 立法院不需要立法委員只要有個橡皮圖章就好了你要多少錢我就代給你就好了我們就必須要完整的向委員做說明好 那先時間暫停一下 那個次長可以請回我請那個環境部長時間暫停 請環境部長備詢"},{"start":350.909,"end":363.762,"text":"在這次的丹納斯颱風一直到後來的風災光電板 光電垃圾 光電墳墓引起了國人的重視"},{"start":365.256,"end":384.082,"text":"那你一開始說他沒有毒啊那我們覺得沒有毒那為什麼一定要趕快去清理呢那一個有13.5萬片受損災後一個月光碟板仍然沒有清完請問一下部長到底什麼時候才會把它清的完"},{"start":384.554,"end":408.606,"text":"好 報告委員第一個是當地的很多的漁民告訴我說因為很多人說光電板有毒 魚都不能吃所以造成他們的困擾他們要我一定要說得出來那我們也的確到現場測了三次的滯洪池因為那個都不是雨溫 滯洪池的水質並沒有任何的重金屬或各種的污染所以我才說出來讓大家可以知道所以我並不是說 像委員說的"},{"start":409.566,"end":425.705,"text":"至於說清楚基本上我們在發生災害的兩個禮拜後其實已經清楚遠離池面上現在33個受損的案場只剩下一個場就叫新莊志宏寺只剩下一個場所以你覺得清理的成績很棒囉"},{"start":427.226,"end":451.093,"text":"當然那家公司他要自己清除他要自己負責清除的什麼時候清到什麼時候他目前給我們的承諾因為我們已經罰到最重的300萬可以連續連續再開罰那他最近給我們的一個計劃書他是預計在9月5號那我們就在審查當中9月5號如果仍然不能清除政府要接手嗎"},{"start":452.213,"end":472.5,"text":"如果他還是這樣破壞環境我們會依照廢清法71條我們要代位求償我們來清除然後跟他全部的清查表示說我們保護這個環境所以9月5號如果仍然不能清除政府會去接手委員這個接手是我們幫我們環境討回這個公道不是說我們要來付錢喔"},{"start":473.302,"end":487.893,"text":"我了解啊 你都還沒看我後面我就說要向業者求償啊我當然知道我怎麼會讓你付錢呢憑什麼讓我們付錢啊憑什麼讓我們納稅人付錢啊這個不會付錢是我們要跟他們做求償的我的意思是說你們什麼時候會接手"},{"start":488.433,"end":513.372,"text":"基本上我們還在審他的這個計畫書合不合理因為那家公司已經黃流非常多次了這一次事件 院長這一次事件非常特殊我們發展能源這個光電板造成了光電垃圾然後污染我們的製洪池污染我們的農田 污染我們的海域到目前為止都還沒有清完行政效率之低啊"},{"start":514.386,"end":529.387,"text":"包委已經清完了33個案場 只剩下一個在案邊而已喔只剩下一個 你再講啊 只剩下一個從現在到那次颱風已經多久了 超過一個月 只剩下一個所以我要給你怎麼樣 我給你按個讚好不好"},{"start":530.765,"end":558.511,"text":"包委員 那個是廠商自己要負的責任那個是廠商自己要負的責任喔院長 今天一個一個問他一直覺得他做得很好 我不懂耶我們要強力監督這些廠商強力監督 監督到現在還沒有清完好 另外 我為什麼再講我說政府先接手 要再向業者求償但是 現在包含光電 很多光電真的 其實倒閉的很多啦"},{"start":559.895,"end":576.336,"text":"倒閉的很多因為他們很多都是跟銀行貸款的他可以這樣子拍拍屁股走人所以我們這個其實未來要把它建立一套SOP這是像違建一樣違建也是一樣你不拆有時候政府代為"},{"start":577.637,"end":597.275,"text":"然後代為執行然後是要跟業者求償的但是如果業者倒閉如果業者拍拍屁股走人的時候那這個錢跟誰去清償所以我希望這個案例這一次的教訓我們要建立一套SOP可不可以 院長我們從"},{"start":600.544,"end":617.789,"text":"歷次的這個案件當中我們都會去深刻的檢討如果讓速度更快 支持面更廣泛那我們的韌性能夠更加強這三個不足我日前已經講過了我希望你們趕快建立SOP時間拜託暫停一下 請部長請回我要請勞動部長時間暫停 請勞動部備詢勞動部長有來嗎"},{"start":629.791,"end":653.451,"text":"因為他不再重建好我把想成追加預算沒問題勞動部沒有來沒有好院長在上個星期我特別針對救安基金的部分你應該回去應該有所瞭解也就是被踢爆的羅景任導演"},{"start":654.838,"end":678.998,"text":"他的三個案子都已經被審計部的調查報告裡面直接揪出弊端要求救安基金把這個錢回補進去就是因為他的用途是不符合相關規定的好那你以為就是羅景任導演一個人的事情嗎一個團隊的事"},{"start":680.872,"end":708.518,"text":"結果我們再深入追查這個救安基金太有鬼了因為他全部都是用開口合約連續三年開口合約每一年都跟三個廠商來簽約這三個廠商每一年都一模一樣民視年代三立驚不驚喜"},{"start":709.943,"end":736.382,"text":"意不意外搞了半天這個已經被審計部揪出有弊端的三年的開口合約原來真正的廠商是民視三立年代這都是被我們認為跟綠營關係特別好稱之為綠媒有的人稱之為黨媒"},{"start":738.393,"end":743.158,"text":"每一年他的金額3100萬3700萬3700多萬合計三年一億通通集中這三個廠商這麼集中這麼湊巧過去我們也講過"},{"start":755.751,"end":767.569,"text":"立法院預算中心就提過我們過去很多的標案特別是沒宣的部分過度集中我記得院長針對這個事情的時候你也認為如果有這樣的問題應該有所檢討對不對是"},{"start":771.394,"end":800.634,"text":"可是現在的問題來了當然111年112年113年度不是你的你當院長但是他發生的果然又過度集中不但過度集中而且都是開口契約更扯的是這個開口契約最後他結案請款跟原來他契約的內容完全部分不相符合所以為什麼被監察院的審計部揪出弊端"},{"start":801.834,"end":829.27,"text":"譬如說他裡面的這些開口契約他裡面並沒有什麼音樂會他伸出一個音樂會就是許明春的音樂會伸出了一個音樂會本來他應該是製作影片他應該要有35個好35個影片結果呢沒有他用一個"},{"start":831.667,"end":843.053,"text":"一個音樂會然後剪出好幾個影片來用這樣來交差一個演唱會謝謝你一個演唱會交差了"},{"start":845.709,"end":869.015,"text":"還有呢他裡面別說要求有影片要5支你要有網路媒體宣傳電視脫波好5支影片來了他只拍了一部影片你要5支影片對不對這5支影片這5支影片就是這一部影片我給你剪成五個一分鐘的影片交差也拿到錢"},{"start":870.988,"end":898.476,"text":"你都笑了可以這樣嗎所以審計部過不了關再來影片兩支廣告短片一支也是網路行銷電視拖播很厲害拍一支影片上下集給你一樣錢照樣拿到每一年都可以拿到1000多萬所以我剛我在上個禮拜就講如果"},{"start":899.878,"end":927.055,"text":"如果你們行政院不究責的話勞動部不究責的話竟然還說救安基金現在這些省基部不認賬的認為有弊端的你還想要編列到公務預算我們絕對不容許所以院長我上個星期就質詢請問一下有關於救安基金的這些弊端"},{"start":928.311,"end":944.267,"text":"你有去指示嗎?你有要求調查嗎?紅部長上任 我要他做的兩件事一個是對於霸凌事件全面調查第二是提升整個勞動部甚至包括北分署裡面的士氣 工作士氣後來我看看各種的"},{"start":946.784,"end":959.135,"text":"情況一直在發生我再度要求他就救安基金要全面的去盤查到目前為止我也是這樣跟大家說如果委員說的如果委員剛剛說的就是事情的全貌或者是一部分我會請勞動部將全貌跟委員報告現在應該有的責任那如果該"},{"start":971.869,"end":972.41,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（15時56分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["王委員鴻薇：不好意思！請問一下，今天經濟部有沒有過來？"],["主席：有。"],["卓院長榮泰：次長有來。"],["王委員鴻薇：是次長，好。"],["主席：請經濟部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好！"],["王委員鴻薇：好！"],["何次長晉滄：委員好！"],["王委員鴻薇：好！院長、次長，在我們這次災後重建預算裡面，有一筆非常重要的，就是因為這次停電的時間非常多、很長，所以在特別預算裡面有編列關於電網韌性的相關預算，我們把它算一下，全部加起來，超過100億，有109億1,720萬，這是有關於電網韌性的部分，在我們這次災後重建預算裡面。另外，我們現在還有一個特別條例，也送過來了，當然很多人講這是普發現金及支援產業、因應對等關稅，但是其中又有一個電網韌性200億。所以這次災後重建及強化韌性特別條例這兩個特別預算309億要補貼給電網韌性。","我們都知道，在今年度撥補台電的1,000億預算，我們把它刪掉了，所以我想請問一下，這個電網韌性真的是用於電網韌性……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是變相的撥補？這是第一個問題。第二個問題，我想請問院長，您知不知道台電在過去曾經推出一個超過5,600億的電網韌性方案……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，沒錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：您知道，好。請問次長，這個方案已經執行幾年了？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，這個方案從111年我們有編列這個預算到現在已經第四年，最主要我們是把過去集中式的電網希望能夠改成分散式的電網，也就是這邊講到的第一項分散工程，至於第二項強固工程的部分，就是一些老舊的設施，我們要把它汰換，甚至我們要擴充一些設備……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我現在問你的是它一共是幾年的計畫，五千六百多億是幾年計畫？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，這個本來是十年的計畫，我們希望把它縮短成六年能夠執行完。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在要縮短成六年？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：執行到第四年了，用了多少錢？不知道？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們回去再提供資料給委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：回去再說？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：你連你用多少錢都不知道，但是你現在要跟我們再要309億……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要問的是從111年台電就已經針對電網韌性的部分，因為過去有很多小動物（包括小松鼠、蛇、穿山甲一大堆的）造成停電，所以要用於電網韌性，也用了5,645億，為了要增加這些錢，我們政府還參加了台電的增資，我只問，錢去哪裡了？如果按照十年計畫，每一年起碼有超過560億在執行，然後執行到現在，你還要錢，左也要錢，右也要錢。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這裡面的110億是針對這一次那麼大的電塔倒下來，還有三千多根電桿倒下來，要去修復的錢。"],["王委員鴻薇：了解，所以在韌性特別條例裡面我們沒有擋你們嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：韌性條例的是針對幾個科學園區，我們發覺韌性不足，我們要把它加強。您說的那個本來十年5,600億，我們把它縮短成六年，到現在已經執行兩年了……"],["王委員鴻薇：到現在連錢多少、花了多少錢都……"],["卓院長榮泰：那個部分我們會請台電把……"],["王委員鴻薇：連花了多少錢你都沒有辦法告訴我，就只是一味的要錢……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是原來強化的計畫，逐年在進行……"],["王委員鴻薇：請台電趕快……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以前兩部分是新增加出來的想法。"],["王委員鴻薇：電網韌性起碼要了300億，這兩個特別條例，5,645億，錢花到哪裡去？花了什麼？你現在把它變成六年，花了多少錢，我也都不知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請台電馬上整理出來，向委員報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：請盡快整理。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是逐年該做的事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們一再講，我們為什麼要監督？我們為什麼要審查預算？不是刪預算，叫做亂刪預算，否則的話，立法院不需要立法委員，只要有一個橡皮圖章就好了，你要多少錢我蓋給你就好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以委員提出的這個問題，我們就必須要完整的向委員做說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，時間先暫停一下，次長可以請回，我請環境部長。"],["主席：時間暫停，請環境部長備詢。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，這一次的丹娜絲颱風一直到後來的風災，光電板、光電垃圾、光電墳墓引起了國人的重視，你一開始說它沒有毒，我們也覺得沒有毒，那為什麼一定要趕快去清理呢？一共有13.5萬片受損，災後一個月，光電板仍然沒有清完，請問一下部長，到底什麼時候才能把它清完？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是當地很多的漁民告訴我說，因為很多人說光電板有毒，魚都不能吃，所以造成他們很大的困擾，他們要我一定要說出來，我們也的確到現場測了滯洪池三次，因為那個都不是魚塭，滯洪池的水質並沒有任何的重金屬或各種的污染，所以我才說出來讓大家可以知道，所以並不是像委員說的。至於說清除，我們在發生災害的兩個禮拜後其實已經清除，遠離池面上，現在33個受損的案場只剩下1個場，就叫新庄滯洪池，就是某一家公司……"],["王委員鴻薇：只剩下1個場，所以你覺得清理的成績很棒囉？都一個月了。"],["彭部長啓明：當然那是那家公司要自己負責清除的。"],["王委員鴻薇：清到什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：它目前給我們的承諾，因為我們已經罰到最重的300萬，可以連續、連續再開罰，它最近給我們的一個計畫是……"],["王委員鴻薇：趕快給我一個時間嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：它是預計在9月5號，而我們正在審查當中。"],["王委員鴻薇：9月5號，好，如果仍然不能清除，政府要接手嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果它還是這樣破壞環境，我們會依照廢清法第七十一條，我們要代位求償，我們來清除，然後跟它全部清查，表示我們保護這個環境。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以9月5號如果仍然不能清除，政府會去接手？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個接手是我們幫我們的環境討回這個公道，不是說我們要來付錢喔！"],["王委員鴻薇：我了解啊！你都還沒有看我後面的，我就說要向業者求償啊！我當然知道，我怎麼會讓你付錢呢？憑什麼讓我們付錢？憑什麼讓我們納稅人付錢啊？你怎麼會講這個答案？"],["彭部長啓明：這個不會付錢，是我們要跟他們求償的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我的意思是說，你們什麼時候會接手？"],["彭部長啓明：我們還在審它的這個計畫書合不合理，因為那家公司已經黃牛非常多次了。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，這一次事件非常特殊，我們發展能源，光電板造成了光電垃圾，污染我們的滯洪池、污染我們的農田、污染我們的海域，到目前為止都還沒有清完，行政效率之低，讓大家實在非常詫異！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，已經清完了33個案場，只剩下1個在岸邊而已喔！"],["王委員鴻薇：只剩下1個，你再講啊！只剩下1個，現在距離丹娜絲颱風已經過多久了，超過一個月，只剩下1個，所以我要給你怎麼樣？我給你按個「讚」，好不好？你可以接受我幫你按個讚嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那是廠商自己要負的責任。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，要不要按個讚？"],["彭部長啓明：那是廠商自己要負的責任喔！那是事業廢棄物。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，我今天一個一個問，它一直覺得它做得很好，我不懂耶？"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有說我做得很好，我們要強力監督這些廠商。"],["王委員鴻薇：你說要強力監督，監督到現在還沒有清完？另外，我說政府先接手，要再向業者求償，但是現在包含光電，其實光電廠商倒閉的很多啦！因為他們很多都是跟銀行貸款的，它可以這樣子拍拍屁股走人。所以未來要把它建立一套SOP，這就像違建一樣，違建也是一樣，你不拆，有時候政府代為執行，然後是要跟業者求償的，但是如果業者倒閉、如果業者拍拍屁股走人的時候，這個錢跟誰求償？所以我希望這一個案例、這一次教訓，我們要建立一套SOP，院長，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：從歷次的案件當中，我們都會去深刻的檢討，如何讓速度更快、支持面更廣泛、讓我們的韌性能夠更加強，這三個不足我日前已經講過了，我們會加強。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我希望你們趕快建立SOP。","時間拜託暫停一下，部長請回，我要請勞動部長。"],["主席：時間暫停，請勞動部備詢。"],["王委員鴻薇：勞動部長有來嗎？因為他不在重建裡面，我把它想成追加預算。好，沒問題，勞動部沒有來嘛？","院長，上個星期我特別針對就安基金的部分做詢問，你回去應該有所了解，也就是被踢爆的羅景壬導演，他的3個案子都已經被審計部在調查報告裡面直接揪出弊端，要求就安基金把這個錢回補進去，因為它的用途是不符合相關規定的。但你以為就是羅景壬導演一個人或一個團隊的事情嗎？結果我們再深入追查，這個就安基金太有鬼了，因為它全部都是用開口合約，連續3年開口合約，每一年都跟3個廠商來簽約，這3個廠商每一年都一模一樣，即民視、年代、三立。驚不驚喜？意不意外？搞了半天，這個已經被審計部揪出有弊端的3年開口合約，原來真正的廠商是民視、三立、年代，這些都是被我們認為跟綠營關係特別好的媒體，稱之為綠媒，有的人稱之為黨媒，它每一年的金額分別是三千一百萬、三千七百萬、三千七百多萬，合計3年1億，統統集中在這3個廠商，這麼集中、這麼湊巧？過去我們也講過，立法院預算中心就提過，過去很多的標案過度集中，特別是媒宣的部分。我記得針對這個事情，院長也認為如果有這樣的問題，應該有所檢討，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是現在問題來了，當然，111年、112年、113年度不是你當院長，但是它發生的果然又過度集中，不但過度集中，而且都是開口契約，更扯的是，這個開口契約最後結案請款跟原來契約內容完全不相符合，而為什麼被監察院的審計部揪出弊端？譬如說，這些開口契約裡面並沒有音樂會，但它生出一個音樂會，就是許銘春的音樂會，本來它應該是製作影片，應該要有35個影片，結果不但沒有，它還用一個音樂會剪出好幾個影片，用這樣來交差，用一個演唱會就交差了。還有裡面比如要求要有五支影片、網路媒體宣傳、電視託播，要五支影片，它卻只拍了一部影片。你要五支影片，對不對？這五支影片就是把這一部影片剪成五個1分鐘的影片交差，也拿到錢。你都笑了！可以這樣嗎？所以到審計部過不了關。","再來，影片兩支、廣告短片一支也是網路行銷、電視託播，很厲害！拍一支影片分上下集給你，一樣，錢照樣拿到，每一年都可以拿到一千多萬。我在上個禮拜就講，行政院不究責、勞動部不究責，竟然說現在這些就安基金審計部不認帳的、認為有弊端的，還想要編列到公務預算，我們絕對不容許。院長，我上個星期就質詢，請問一下，有關就安基金的這些弊端，你有指示嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有。"],["王委員鴻薇：你有要求調查嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：洪部長上任，我要他做的兩件事，一是對於霸凌事件全面調查，二是提升整個勞動部，甚至包括北分署裡面的工作士氣。後來我看到各種情況一直在發生，再度要求他就就安基金要全面地去盤查，到目前為止，我也是這樣跟大家說。如果委員說的……"],["王委員鴻薇：你有沒有給他限期？你要讓他限期交報告給你啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員剛剛說的就是事情的全貌或者一部分，我會請勞動部將全貌跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：我講的這些狀況……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再來找出現在應該有的責任，如果該法辦，我們就法辦，它已經在程序當中了，但……"],["王委員鴻薇：當然要法辦！院長，我剛才講的狀況不是我王鴻薇說的，是審計部的調查報告，所以你一定要對此有所回應、調查清楚……"],["卓院長榮泰：會。"],["王委員鴻薇：不要再用納稅人的錢去填補這些人謀不臧的虧損跟漏洞，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請勞動部向我跟委員清楚說明，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","我們休息之後，請陳冠廷委員準備質詢，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（16時12分）","繼續開會（16時23分）"],["主席：報告院會，現在繼續開會。","接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢，楊瓊瓔委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e7902e6ef21b18e5178f7691804860db32efe185d5441d45b825f6224e177d86ebea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"15:39:49 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謝謝韓院長我是不是請一下行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長"},{"start":32.88,"end":52.035,"text":"院長好我想這幾天相當辛苦連續站在備詢台上今天要針對丹納斯颱風跟728豪雨的災後重建特別預算來跟您請教我剛剛很認真的聽您的報告關於丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨"},{"start":53.377,"end":64.729,"text":"桃園區在728開始的8天桃園區下了2423毫米這個已經逼近莫拉克的紀錄所以這個豪雨造成了有10萬戶停電農損大概2萬公頃損失超過10億元"},{"start":69.935,"end":84.112,"text":"所以立法院在很快的速度包括行政院送來的這個丹納斯的特別條例預算我們很快的速度來進入院會要來今天進行詢問不過院長我要請教一下我們現在這個預算編列600億對不對是"},{"start":87.736,"end":110.249,"text":"這個預算600億是上限呢還是他只是現在先框了一個600億未來有沒有追加的可能您的報告裡頭沒有談到這個部分但是財政部長的報告裡面呢卻很清楚的寫到說這個依丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例第五條規定經費上限為新台幣600億元"},{"start":112.165,"end":133.356,"text":"院長我為什麼要特別請教這件事情就是說到底這個是上限還是需求評估當年莫拉克我們也便利了一千億但是最後因為不夠所以還追加超過兩千億那如果現在行政院就把它訂定為上限只有六百億的話未來能不能追加那還有沒有舉債的空間"},{"start":133.996,"end":150.585,"text":"跟委員報告這個旦那斯颱風以及這個728乃至於大家關心0802往後的數日的災害所造成的損害我們編這個特別預算當然目前我們編的預算規模是600億那我們希望600億能夠去解決現在的問題"},{"start":153.346,"end":171.146,"text":"縱然未來還有更多的狀況發生或是我們編列的預算不夠還是仍然可以透過特別預算追加預算的程序來辦理但我們希望在這當中我們用600億能夠大家很準確的來使用善用這個公帑把事情給做好這是現在的原則"},{"start":171.854,"end":192.757,"text":"好 如果是這樣 院長這個我看到我特別有準備了一個框框這是你的這個600億大概用在水利設施 電力系統 農業設施 道路跟這個所謂的社會復原那我就一項一項來請教您首先我要跟您請教的是在農業設施的部分"},{"start":193.757,"end":218.894,"text":"你現在農業設施編列了101億剛才包括很多的委員包括這個郭國文委員也好或者是蘇清泉委員也好我們來自農業地區的大概就會很關心到底這個農業設施編列101億夠不夠院長您實際去了六龜嘛對不對我讓您看一下這個是您那天去沒有看到的照片這個是甲仙這兩天"},{"start":220.759,"end":236.932,"text":"阻塞成了一個艷澀湖我們在昨天前天緊急的把它疏通了所以這個艷澀湖現在解決了但是我很擔心未來他還是會有再形成艷澀湖的可能性那你看到右手邊的這兩個圖一個是在六龜地區的六金橋"},{"start":237.732,"end":254.952,"text":"一個是在寶萊的高133的道路這一些土石堆積成這樣其實都是從山上土石流大量的泥沙帶著巨石崩落然後阻塞了道路的通行這個就是在六龜看到的狀況但是"},{"start":257.555,"end":280.195,"text":"農業部林保署對於林業的這個防治我常常覺得他們是頭痛衣頭腳痛衣腳因為他不能過度開發所以每一次呢有大雨來的時候有地震來的時候有颱風來的時候山上的土石流造成了道路的回堵那每一年我們都要配置很多的怪手在旁邊stand by"},{"start":281.256,"end":305.489,"text":"可是這個問題永遠沒有辦法解決所以現在農業設施編列的101億元有沒有包含這一些治山治水的計畫部長我跟委員報告在100.66億裡面大概跟治山防洪的部分大概有51.10的部分大概就會處理這個治山防洪的部分"},{"start":306.755,"end":328.013,"text":"然後將近50億是在處理農糧還有漁業的這些專案部分所以你置山防洪大概是50億嘛是不是這樣那50億你要怎麼分配高雄會分配多少因為你這一次的受災不是只有在高雄地區啊對我知道這個部分那個院長你再看一下這張照片這是今天早上我們去現場會看的照片這個也是在六龜啊"},{"start":328.633,"end":340.663,"text":"也是因為這次好雨沖刷這原來是一條大的排水浚溝那現在變成這樣子整個陸基是滔工旁邊的是一個山莊那旁邊的居民都非常的擔憂"},{"start":343.615,"end":370.431,"text":"這個修復道路的修復是公路局要去修復可是泥水沖刷大雨沖刷來是因為山上的土石流太過於嚴重所以部長我要跟您討論就是說未來在林務署的這個治山治水的部分你們在山上所做的藍沙壩或是山上能不能有一些基礎的建設來防止這樣子的大量的土石崩落"},{"start":371.351,"end":393.941,"text":"能不能再多做一些什麼東西我想跟委員報告其實在我們明年度就是那個系統性治水的方案裡面從集水機到波渡到下游的農田水利的部分它是串接在一起的那農業部的年度的預算從上游到一直到下游大概有120億但是今年因為有前瞻還有易後的部分有到170億"},{"start":395.302,"end":417.487,"text":"那這個部分我想我們會盡量的去處理這個部分那第二個部分是您剛才說的就是說有一部分因為我們在這次特別災害在列入的時候是經過公共工程委員會去詢問的地方政府所需要的部分會納入那如果說在那個時間點沒有納入的話我想農業部也會用我們自己的預算去處理"},{"start":418.024,"end":436.635,"text":"其實部長這些東西這些點你應該都很清楚因為我們也談過很多次也去會堪過很多次包括你們林務署也都非常的清楚我今天只是特別把這個照片讓院長知道這個治山治水那個照片一條道路還有房子在我想那個是急迫性的危險"},{"start":437.555,"end":455.845,"text":"這個是非常急迫性的危險啊院長你看到那個下面的路基是完全掏空喔他其實不是一條道路他其實本來是一個很大的排水溝他旁邊都是有泥做的排水溝是整個被沖刷掉了然後現在道路掏空喔好那接下來除了治山治水的部分以外"},{"start":456.906,"end":474.634,"text":"接下來要跟大家要跟部長您談到的或者是跟院長請教的就是在農業災損的部分我們現在講到農業災損我們是立即補助超過八成的補助但農業設施我們也是在補助不過我們最近我們幾位立委提出了一個新的概念叫做以租換貸"},{"start":476.115,"end":495.345,"text":"我們過去的農業的設施是讓農民去貸款嘛可是你看到現在這個農業設施垂潘寥寥啊他之前的貸款都沒貸到行但是已經賣掉了他沒錢 要怎麼再去再去省錢賀一塊的貸款所以對農民來講這個是雪上加霜來 下一頁"},{"start":496.414,"end":510.328,"text":"好 這一個概念提出來之後農信保基金說這個是可行的但是農糧署說這個不可行因為你們今年的補助才剛剛給所以現在不能夠再改現在不能夠再給"},{"start":511.786,"end":532.756,"text":"院長你會不會覺得這個太過於僵化啦能不能有一些彈性的調整或是一個這樣的一個新的措施能不能納入思考我跟委員報告如果農糧署做這樣的回答我代替農糧署跟您說抱歉啦其實以政策面來講我是支持這個方向而且我特別去開會了那現在要處理的是兩個問題一個是"},{"start":535.357,"end":556.319,"text":"溫室的業者他現在有沒有能力做蓋這個東西因為他們現在有沒有都在修其他的地方所以我才會說我們在年底之前我們一定會成立完整的一個規劃出來而且先用示範場域的方式去處理那示範場域的部分可能有一部分牽涉到台塘地的部分我們會跟經濟部還有台塘去做協商"},{"start":557.221,"end":565.537,"text":"讓他真正的有一個Business Model以後那這樣的話溫室業者也願意自動投入然後後面的融資就是由農信寶這邊來處理"},{"start":567.857,"end":591.49,"text":"我是覺得很多的政策應該是要快速然後要能夠彈性的運用要能夠針對到農民 災民的需求啦如果你現在還要有一個business model出來的話會不會到時候農民會覺得這個東西其實是看得到吃不到你的研議啦 然後又要盤點啦 又要計算啦然後又要計算它到底有沒有利潤可回收"},{"start":592.625,"end":612.495,"text":"我還是期待以租換貸這件事情是不是能夠請院長也能夠指示農業部我們盡速的加速的去研議然後把我們的對於農業設施的不管是補助也好對於農業設施的這一些減免我覺得這個政策能夠做一個大幅的調整院長這可以嗎"},{"start":613.191,"end":641.533,"text":"我們到各縣市去的時候我親口聽見部長也是在講這樣的概念所以委員的建議跟部長的想法是一樣現在我們把想的東西把它融合為一用一個比較完整周延的方式那對剛剛農糧署所提出的他應該有他的依據我們叫他做解釋清楚以部長的這個方式如果說我們的概念想法是一樣那是不是我們就加速來推動加速來進行我們一定會加速 對好不好 好來 夏業接下來要跟"},{"start":642.353,"end":671.076,"text":"部長談到的這個我們講到了土石流來但是其實在這一次有很多的災民是無家可歸的因為土石流淹沒了他的家那過去莫拉克的時候因為是大幅的滅村所以我們建置了永久屋但是這一次因為土石流導致家屋全毀的沒有永久屋可以住那我們現在只有講說修繕或者是補貼他租屋您知道在鄉下地區要租屋不是那麼樣的容易"},{"start":671.576,"end":699.385,"text":"那我覺得在永久屋的建置上面大愛園區其實還有空地有沒有可能去做一些研議讓政府現在先蓋一個先蓋一些臨時的永久屋我覺得方便未來或者是現在的災民如果有這樣的需求其實我們是可以協助他們的我覺得這個是不是也能夠請內政部來納入考量在我們的整個這個幫助災民的租屋方面"},{"start":700.505,"end":728.099,"text":"納入考量可以嗎是類似組合屋的概念嗎是我們這次在當當是颱風之後有跟地方政府聯繫如果有需要有組合屋我們來想辦法但到目前為止都沒有得到說有需求那如果說有需求有啦我們有這個需求啦但是因為我們地方政府就把它直接處理掉了我現在要談的就是說整個大方向透過我們這個災後重建第二要談到就是說道路的建設其實這次道路損壞非常嚴重嘛"},{"start":728.499,"end":746.167,"text":"但是我看到您的報告裡面只有講到道路的建設要花89億但是道路建好了之後附近受災的觀光復蘇好像沒有包含在這一些重建的計劃裡頭這個是不是也能夠把它補足進去六龜寶萊地區的道路復蘇之後"},{"start":748.928,"end":772.694,"text":"到底他的觀光能不能一併協助復蘇這個我也很期待交通部跟觀光署也能夠來協助我們六龜跟甲仙甚至桃園原住民地區的這些觀光的復蘇計畫你現在看起來只有道路交通建設嘛那你的道路計畫橋樑計畫是不是能夠有一些不同的思維您看到這個土石已經都快跟橋一樣高了"},{"start":773.174,"end":792.303,"text":"所以未來交通部在這些道路建設計畫裡頭是不是能夠有一些新的設計 新的構想是 報告委員因為我們有到現場去看您也在現場整個河川的流向已經完全改變了所以未來整個道路的設計當然會順著現在大自然改變的方向下去改變設計這是必然要做的"},{"start":792.683,"end":817.968,"text":"那您剛所提到的觀光的問題我們等硬體的建設先完成之後後續我們會來思考怎麼樣透過活動把旅客帶到現在的災區因為大家對於災區的印象都還是災區的那個樣子但是等它完成之後你不能等你的硬體全部都做好以後才開始要做觀光的復甦那可能又是好幾年之後了我們目前已經都在計畫當中但是要等硬體完成之後我們開始帶旅客到現在的道路如果"},{"start":818.468,"end":835.859,"text":"已經搶通安全無虞的狀態之下我覺得其實是可以某一個程度上去協助災區的這些觀光的付出好 可以 那我們就提早現在先到災區去了解看現在可以辦什麼樣子的活動好 最後一個部長我要跟您討論的就是電網防災任性的部分來 那兩位部長可以請回"},{"start":838.564,"end":858.078,"text":"每一次颱風來或者是大雨來其實院長你可以看到台電總是最忙碌最辛苦的台電一千億的撥補在立法院屢次都不通過但是只要停電大家就會開始一直希望台電趕快去復電我今天要跟您談的是防災任性來下一頁"},{"start":859.837,"end":873.355,"text":"這個呢院長您看一下這個照片這個是在屏東的獅子鄉在原住民地區過去因為我們幾次的風災山上常常會受損嚴重所以台電在獅子鄉有做了防災型的微電網"},{"start":874.557,"end":901.904,"text":"那防災型的微電網在屋頂上架置太陽能板底下有個大概兩坪大的除電系統就可以預防或者是因應因為風災水災造成的停電那這一次一樣啊在桃園納馬下茂林的山區一樣遇到這些問題工程車開不進去停電停了三天如果我們的防災韌性電網的計劃能夠加速推動到原住民地區去優先設置"},{"start":902.904,"end":906.296,"text":"或者您可以設置加護的這個能不能讓經濟部盡速的來研議來推動"},{"start":909.278,"end":935.045,"text":"在這個特殊地區的微電網設置一直是經濟部台電他們在規劃的過程當中請市長來回應跟委員報告我們這次有編了8億元就是要做這件事情8億夠不夠啊這8億根本蓋不了幾戶啊是我們會優先在一些偏遠而且容易形成孤島地區的災區優先來設置那我們未來也會逐步看這個成效我們會複製"},{"start":949.039,"end":950.121,"text":"好 謝謝邱毅英委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（15時39分）謝謝韓院長，是不是請行政院卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長好。院長，這幾天相當辛苦，連續站在備詢臺上，今天我要針對丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後重建特別預算跟你請教。院長，我剛剛很認真地聽你的報告，關於丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨，桃源區在七二八開始的八天，下了2,423毫米的雨量，逼近莫拉克的紀錄，這個豪雨造成了10萬戶停電，農損大概2萬公頃，損失超過10億元，所以行政院送來的丹娜絲特別條例、預算，立法院以很快的速度進入院會，在今天進行詢答，不過我想請教一下院長，現在這個預算編列600億元，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：600億元的預算是上限，還是只是現在先匡600億，未來有沒有追加的可能？你的報告裡沒有談到這個部分，但是財政部長的報告裡卻很清楚地寫到：依丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別條例第五條規定，經費上限為新臺幣600億元。院長，我為什麼要特別請教這件事？就是到底這是上限，還是需求評估？當年莫拉克我們也編列了1,000億，最後因為不夠，所以還追加超過2,000億，如果現在行政院就把它訂定為上限只有600億，未來能不能追加？還有沒有舉債的空間？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，丹娜絲颱風及七二八，乃至於大家關心的零八零二往後的數日災害所造成的損害，我們編列了這個特別預算，當然目前編列的預算規模是600億，我們希望600億能夠解決現在的問題，縱然未來還有更多的狀況發生，或是我們編列的預算不夠，仍然還是可以透過特別預算追加預算的程序來辦理，但我們希望在這當中，用600億讓大家撙節使用、善用公帑，然後把事情做好，這是現在的原則。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，如果是這樣，那我特別準備了一個框框，就是你這600億大概是用在水力設施、電力系統、農業設施、道路跟所謂的社會復原，現在我就一項一項請教你。首先我要跟你請教的是農業設施的部分，農業設施部分編列了101億，剛才有很多委員，包括郭國文委員、蘇清泉委員，我們這些來自農業地區的委員大概都很關心，到底農業設施編列101億夠不夠？院長，你實際去了六龜，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我讓你看一下，這個是你那天去而沒有看到的照片。這個是甲仙，這兩天阻塞成了一個堰塞湖，我們在昨天、前天緊急把它疏通了，所以這個堰塞湖現在解決了，但是我很擔心未來它還是會有再形成堰塞湖的可能性。右手邊的這兩個圖，一個是六龜地區的六津橋，一個是寶來的高133道路，土石堆積成這樣！其實這些土石都是山上土石流挾帶大量泥沙、巨石崩落，阻塞了道路的通行，這就是在六龜看到的狀況，但是農業部林保署對於林業的防治，我常常覺得是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，因為不能過度開發，所以每一次大雨來的時候、地震來的時候、颱風來的時候，山上的土石流都會造成道路回堵，每一年我們都要配置很多怪手在旁邊stand by，而這個問題永遠沒有辦法解決。請問部長，現在農業設施編列的101億元，有沒有包含這些治山治水的計畫？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，在100.66億裡面，治山防洪的部分大概有51.10億，然後將近50億是在處理農糧，還有漁業的這些……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以治山防洪大概是50億嘛！是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：對，大概是這樣。"],["邱委員議瑩：那50億你要怎麼分配？高雄會分配多少？因為這一次的受災不是只有在高雄地區啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道，這個部分……"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，你再看一下這一張照片，這是今天早上我們去現場會勘的照片，這個也是在六龜，也是因為這次的豪雨沖刷，這原來是一條大的排水圳溝，那現在變成這樣子，整個路基是掏空的，旁邊是一個山莊，旁邊的居民都非常地擔憂。這個道路的修復是公路局要去修復，可是泥水沖刷、大雨沖刷是因為山上的土石流太過於嚴重，所以部長我要跟您討論的是，未來在林務署治山治水的部分，你們在山上所做的攔砂壩，或是山上能不能有一些基礎的建設，來防止這樣子的大量土石崩落，能不能再多做一些什麼東西？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，其實在我們明年度系統性治水的方案裡面，從集水區到坡度到下游的農田水利的部分，它是串接在一起的。那農業部的年度預算，從上游一直到下游大概有120億，但是今年因為有前瞻，還有疫後的部分，有到170億，我想我們會儘量去處理這個部分。第二個部分是您剛才說的，我們這次特別災害在列入的時候，是經過公共工程委員會去詢問地方政府所需要的部分會納入，如果在那個時間點沒有納入的話，我想農業部也會用我們自己的預算去處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實部長，這些東西、這些點你應該都很清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：因為我們也談過很多次，也去會勘過很多次，包括你們林務署也都非常清楚，我今天只是特別把這個照片讓院長知道，治山治水……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛那個照片中一條道路旁邊還有房子在，我想那個是急迫性的危險。"],["邱委員議瑩：這個是非常急迫性的危險。"],["卓院長榮泰：公路局跟農業部都要去研究。"],["邱委員議瑩：院長，你看下面的路基是完全掏空。"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊！"],["邱委員議瑩：它其實不是一條道路，它其實本來是一個很大的排水溝，它旁邊都是有泥作的排水溝，是整個被沖刷掉了，然後現在道路掏空。","除了治山治水的部分以外，接下來要跟部長談到的，或者是跟院長請教的，就是農業災損的部分。我們現在講到農業災損，我們是立即補助，超過八成的補助，那農業設施我們也是在補助，不過最近我們幾位立委提出了一個新的概念，叫做「以租換貸」。我們過去的農業設施是讓農民去貸款，可是你看到現在這個農業設施都被風雨吹壞了，他之前的貸款還沒辦法還，但是已經壞掉了，他沒錢要怎麼再去申請下一次的貸款，所以對農民來講，這個是雪上加霜。這一個概念提出來之後，農信保基金說這個是可行的，但是農糧署說這個不可行，因為你們今年的補助才剛剛給，所以現在不能夠再改、現在不能夠再給。院長，你會不會覺得這個太過於僵化啦！能不能有一些彈性的調整或是這個新的措施能不能納入思考？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明一下農糧署的回答是怎麼樣的狀況。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，如果農糧署做這樣的回答，我代替農糧署跟您說抱歉，其實以政策面來講，我是支持這個方向，而且我特別去開會了。那現在要處理的是兩個問題，一個是溫室的業者，他現在有沒有能力蓋這個東西，因為他們現在都在修其他的地方……"],["邱委員議瑩：現在大家都在修復嘛！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我才會說，在年底之前，我們一定會有一個完整的規劃出來，而且先用示範場域的方式去處理，那示範場域的部分，可能有一部分牽涉到台糖地的部分，我們會跟經濟部還有台糖去做協商，讓它真正有一個business model以後，這樣的話溫室業者也願意自動投入，然後後面的融資就是由農信保這邊來處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我覺得很多政策應該是要快速，然後要能夠彈性的運用，要能夠針對到農民、災民的需求，如果你現在還要有一個business model出來的話，會不會到時候農民會覺得這個東西其實是看得到吃不到，你們要研議，然後又要盤點、又要計算，又要計算他到底有沒有利潤可回收。我還是期待「以租換貸」這件事情是不是能夠請院長也指示農業部，我們儘速的、加速的去研議，然後把我們對於農業設施不管是補助也好，對於農業設施的這些減免，我覺得這個政策要能做大幅地調整，院長，這樣可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們到各縣市去的時候，我親耳聽見部長也是在講這樣的概念，所以委員的建議，跟部長的想法是一樣的。現在我們是把兩邊想的東西融合為一，用一個比較完整、周延的方式來做。對於剛剛農糧署所提出的，他應該有他的依據，我會要他解釋清楚，以部長的方式來處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果我們的概念、想法一樣，我們是不是就加速來推動、加速來進行？"],["陳部長駿季：委員，我們會一定會加速。"],["邱委員議瑩：好不好？好。接下來要跟部長談到的是，我們講到有土石流來，但是這次其實有很多災民是無家可歸的，因為土石流淹沒了他的家，過去莫拉克的時候，因為是大幅滅村所以我們建置了永久屋。但是這一次，因為土石流導致家屋全毀，沒有永久屋可以住，我們現在只講修繕或者是補貼他租屋。您知道要在鄉下地區租屋不是那麼容易，我覺得在永久屋的建置上面，大愛園區其實還有空地，有沒有可能研議讓政府現在先蓋一些臨時的永久屋，以方便未來或者是現在的災民？他們如果有這樣的需求，其實我們是可以協助他們的，我覺得這個是不是也能請內政部在幫助災民的租屋方面納入考量，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是類似組合屋的概念嗎？"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：這次在丹娜絲颱風之後，有跟地方政府聯繫，如有需要組合屋，我們會來想辦法。但到目前為止都沒有接獲需求，如果有需求……"],["邱委員議瑩：有啦，我們有這個需求啦，只是我們地方政府就把它直接處理掉了。我現在要談的就是，在整個大方向上，透過我們的災後重建……第二個要談到就是道路的建設，其實這次道路損壞得非常嚴重，但是我看到您在報告裡面只講到道路的建設要花89億，而道路建好之後，附近受災的觀光復甦，好像沒有包含在這一些重建的計畫裡頭，這個是不是也能夠把它補足進去？六龜寶來地區的道路復甦之後，到底能不能一併協助它的觀光復甦？這個我也很期待交通部跟觀光署能夠來協助我們六龜跟甲仙，甚至是桃源原住民地區的這些觀光復甦計畫。現在看起來是只有道路交通建設，那你的道路計畫、橋梁計畫是不是能有一些不同的思維？您看這個土石都已經快跟橋一樣高了，所以未來交通部在這些道路建設計畫裡頭是不是能夠有一些新的設計、新的構想？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為我們有到現場去看，您也在現場，整個河川的流向已經完全改變了。"],["邱委員議瑩：對。"],["陳部長世凱：所以未來整個道路的設計當然會順著現在大自然改變的方向而去改變設計，這是必然要做的。至於您剛剛提到觀光的問題，我們等硬體的建設先完成之後，後續我們會來思考怎麼樣透過活動把旅客帶到現在的災區，因為大家對於災區的印象都還是災區的那個樣子……"],["邱委員議瑩：沒有，部長，對於您說的這點我不是很同意。不能等你的硬體全部都做好以後才開始要做觀光的復甦，那可能又是好幾年之後了。"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前都已經在計畫當中，但是要等硬體完成之後，我們開始帶旅客到……"],["邱委員議瑩：現在的道路如果已經搶通，在安全無虞的狀態之下，我覺得在某個程度上其實是可以去協助災區觀光的復甦的。"],["陳部長世凱：可以，那我們就提早，現在就先到災區去了解，看現在可以辦什麼樣子的活動。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，最後一個，部長，我要跟您討論的是電網防災韌性的部分，兩位部長可以請回。每次颱風來或者是大雨來，其實院長可以看到台電總是最忙碌、最辛苦的。"],["陳部長世凱：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：台電1,000億的撥補在立法院屢次都不通過，但是只要停電大家就會開始一直希望台電趕快去復電。我今天要跟您談的是防災韌性，請院長看一下這張照片，這個是在屏東獅子鄉的原住民地區，過去因為幾次的風災山上常常嚴重受損，所以台電在獅子鄉做了防災型的微電網。防災型的微電網在屋頂上架置太陽能板，底下有一個大概2坪大的儲電系統，就可以預防或者是因應因為風災、水災造成的停電。","這一次在桃源、那瑪夏、茂林的山區也一樣遇到這些問題，工程車開不進去，停電停了3天，如果我們防災韌性電網的計畫能夠加速推動，到原住民地區去優先設置，或者您可以設置家戶的，這個能不能讓經濟部儘速來研議推動？"],["卓院長榮泰：在這個特殊地區的微電網設置一直是經濟部、台電在規劃的過程當中，請次長來回應。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們這次有編了8億元，就是要來做這件事情，所以……"],["邱委員議瑩：8億夠不夠，這8億根本蓋不了幾戶啊！"],["何次長晉滄：是，我們會優先在一些偏遠而且容易形成孤島的地區來設置，我們未來也會看這個成效，逐步複製到其他的地方。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，院長，我大概就分幾個部會來跟您做討論，原則上，我們還是希望這些重建的腳步能夠加速進行，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢。接下來王鴻薇委員質詢完畢之後，我們將會休息10分鐘。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e790002a7a441713248f7691804860db32efdcf4f15ed44e1529450105506708a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"15:23:42 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也沒有竊竊下來那像這一些是不是可以從寬的來跟他處理這個院長可以考慮嗎實際的狀況是不是請屏東縣政府跟我們的前進指揮所的辦公室一起來研究我們希望用更簡便的方法從優從寬來認定"},{"start":192.81,"end":221.636,"text":"因為這個對他們來講是一輩子的大事啦對我們來講可能是小事那上次我在關心的就是從寬的認定剛剛好幾位委員也都一樣大家都很關心我發現這個災害不管哪一個政黨都非常關心而且都是以百姓人民的出發點真的是很溫暖啦謝謝大家用非常快的速度通過了特別的條例以及今天來審查特別預算 謝謝"},{"start":222.332,"end":240.517,"text":"那再來就是我們農損從寬洞認定上次我提的就是像嘉義那個蚵仔麵一盤補五百塊沒中對不對對啦 叫那個香港社會的人去找白鴨車去現場那去想那時候去看那時候那風雲那麼大說有這麼可靠 這麼無聊的一個農業部居然會這種要求"},{"start":251.806,"end":278.232,"text":"用空拍機 用搖桿 這個是很現代化的東西所以不要再去做那些無聊 違反科學的空拍機現在那麼多 無聯機那麼多只要去企業全品項 全方位 剛剛你講的嘛我們要以百姓為優先嘛我就一直在講 農業部最大存在的價值就是照顧這三百萬農漁牧的"},{"start":281.22,"end":301.592,"text":"我們的人民 我們的國民 農漁牧三百萬人所以關稅應用特別 都很高興到現在不知道有沒有透明都搞不清楚所以這個一定要 院長一定要好好的把持這些人就是我們的國民我們最疼惜的 好不好"},{"start":303.173,"end":322.172,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是現在目前的勘災的部分在路上就是用勘災APP照相以後公所就會認定那這個部分大概大部分的很多公所都已經確認可以用這個了那您至於說海上的部分我們也寫到公所是可以必要的時候我們用空拍機去直接去拍"},{"start":322.833,"end":346.544,"text":"然後如果要出去看的時候一定要風平浪靜這個我想我們也會在公所會確認那後續我們會把海上的這些空拍的系統直接納到一個現勘的一個作業規範裡面好 謝謝 部長很辛苦 表現非常好那剛剛有好幾個委員也在講阿你那波族的金魚 農損的金額部長 院長我還要跟你講一件"},{"start":347.932,"end":355.145,"text":"你用身份的20%來補助然後你的榮損的金額就是用那60%"},{"start":356.779,"end":384.203,"text":"所以你每次公佈的農損的金額都是很少那這樣是顯示什麼顯示說災害很輕還是你在蒙蔽什麼院長 這種計算方式是不是要改這個沒有人看的原因這個計算的標準應該是行之多年一直沒有檢討那農業部應該來檢討去面對這樣極端氣候全面檢討是必要的"},{"start":384.563,"end":410.481,"text":"對啦 這個用這種農事我每次都看不下去誰想生死五十年你跟我說生死五十千萬 笑死人了 對不對我們會衡量現在整個財政的結構對 盡量來幫助農漁民你用你的身份的資格來補助我上次講了嘛 育兒包一分多如果能收成 能收二三十萬結果你一分多補助六千八千"},{"start":412.405,"end":432.817,"text":"可能補償的方式沒有辦法達到市價或是實際價錢能夠再起這個做跟做的這個作用幫他能夠重新再能夠起來這個才是我們的作用有一點點感而且一塊農地一年才補助一次喔"},{"start":435.548,"end":461.757,"text":"所以這個金額要提高啦不是我講的 剛才古來的委員也講啊國國也講啊 頂頂啊所以這要檢討啦我們請農業部來檢討讓他能夠重新復耕能力這樣的方式來做檢討好 那再來我再跟你講東港的這印度你今天要給我答應我今天要再出來當天跟你喝水啊就每天如果大大流"},{"start":463.22,"end":489.37,"text":"上潮、大潮就陰當天接下來有一個成功搜水站有一個光屋搜水站那是在馬英九時代、阿扁時代就起了現在這邊只剩東港大排還有有無溪、小甲的地方如果大潮開,那裡就有水災了那水災面,我去廢坑久了幾年了就好像差在京府,暗瓶有多少錢"},{"start":490.7,"end":508.539,"text":"對 把他關心一下 把他答應一下這齁 這是笑死人了 一個又贏兩次了還要放開來製作的提升兩邊的戶題是一個方式或是如果有抽水站 抽水機加大他抽派的這個作品沒錯 做個抽水站在那邊就比較"},{"start":510.143,"end":538.206,"text":"假來那兩咖 案就解決了這如果做了 演完一四人都感謝你經濟部水利署去現場了解我們能夠緊急的或是優先來處理我們來納入現場不然的話你看這個每一個也演兩次來 下一張我們來講這個就是損害的部分我不用在最初剛剛已經有講了溫室的東西啦我這一次發現屏東的韌性比較強"},{"start":539.4,"end":563.946,"text":"屏東一天到晚外國起床所以這間林佳嵐真的是百年沒有颱風直撲陳部長常常去我常常去屏東勘災所以大家的記憶很重所以我這次看台南那邊的災害真的是很大很突然所以一定要寬烈那屏東台東比照嘛好 下一張"},{"start":567,"end":576.483,"text":"我現在再來就是跟環境部有關我們環境部處理這一個嘉義那個我們有去現勘我們有去勘這是當局 加當的外海"},{"start":588.107,"end":616.841,"text":"那個太陽能板現在知道那個公司是台灣的公司標的那個泰國的公司 我不知道啦這如果是違法就要板啦你給他發三百萬 三百萬 三百萬給他發三百萬他也不給你信到啊你說什麼要請去廟裡 請去哪裡要去分解就現場都給你搞啦 就給你分解啦部長 院長這你看啊 你怎麼看下去"},{"start":617.583,"end":644.418,"text":"報告委員 元玉科技的公司他已經被我們罰到900萬了他也提出一個清理的計畫書當然我們還是給他時間因為他有給我們一個新的承諾書是9月5號以前在這個池 現在池的上面已經沒有了自動池上面沒有了是他放在旁邊但是我們認為他還是違反廢清法而且我們還是給他一點點時間他們提出來希望9月5號以前我們現在正在審他的這個計畫"},{"start":645.459,"end":672.118,"text":"那如果他真的是非常糟糕的話那我已經公開說了我會接手而且代位求償然後給他最重的處罰甚至他以後都沒有辦法營運所以這個他要負起責任的那另外一個剛剛委員說的是那個屏東的三寶那這個已經被我們退回去了那希望他們再補正因為這邊算是什麼優良的農地他們必須考量限地的一個狀況所以我們其實環境部已經退回去了"},{"start":672.972,"end":700.621,"text":"院長 院長我看喔 家裡那個光電板那個可能是擺爛 啊不然放到桌子裡啦到樓北還是政府要去檢查那個環境部是強力的要求他我們到現場去看 我也強力的要求他那都 那三館是誰人的 是公司都炒不夠 亂七八糟相同地區啊 相同地區有其他的我們本土的廠商跟我們配合的意願 結果都很好就這一家喔 他這個這個態度上我覺得大有問題那"},{"start":701.981,"end":725.078,"text":"環境部已經連續開發而且有更強硬的手段高委員我們台灣壞了三十幾個地方啦大的三十幾個地方那其他都清完了只剩下這個地方就是新莊 志鴻池好 我們看那個老批農場這個剛剛部長有講了我非常欽佩你把這個三家公司院長這就是屏東內部的老批農場這裡有八百公頃"},{"start":731.406,"end":744.012,"text":"平地茶有坡度的茶現在整個都要弄光電盤三家公司那也是水土保護區什麼區什麼區都有然後我們的環境部把它退回"},{"start":746.113,"end":773.476,"text":"我覺得很有勇氣不過我看他們會再檢討重來我們不要再破壞我們的環境了好不好再搞一搞又變成土石油了不會 我已經公開宣布地方有重大疑慮的破壞生態的我們的疑慮不應該核准好 院長的承諾好 這個是更誇張的我們的台東沿岸要踩50多公里風車"},{"start":775.154,"end":795.285,"text":"現在要去屏東的榜山還有獅子鄉要再採11基然後東海岸反風車大聯盟已經成立我們屏東這裡我們加入了叫做東海岸南迴恆春半島反風車大聯盟這就是預計在榜山要採的"},{"start":799.593,"end":818.949,"text":"這個一個風車造價2012年是1.2億 1.3億現在可能搞不好2億都要以前海上的風車一隻要8億現在可能要十幾億所以這個成本很高然後賣給台電賣到6塊 7塊 8塊"},{"start":822.747,"end":841.301,"text":"然後1.1塊錢的核能你不用你去用7、8塊錢的然後虧損一大堆這個都是要新蓋的然後一支一電風車一年的發電量最多五、六百萬度五、六百萬度而已然後它的低頻"},{"start":842.99,"end":861.017,"text":"所以他們現在反對大聯盟那我屏東也加入他們要組團來環境部來經濟部抗爭我說我支持你們台東的也要加入這也不用再補了啦花東那邊都是"},{"start":862.335,"end":871.747,"text":"大颱風來 首當其衝十六級 十七級 欸 不一定前兩天 藍營十七級 爆表那風車動會掉嗎那風車要怎麼回去"},{"start":876.716,"end":902.092,"text":"報告委員 我以前已經在台東有公開說對於這樣的我們是不鼓勵也不支持那他現在是他想要開發但是也報告委員我們在過去這幾個月我們已經把幾個類似這樣的案例全部擋掉了 全部退回了所以請委員放心因為有剩下30秒 議長我要跟你說你最近去屏東 我都沒出息我都不會去 是怎樣你敢知道"},{"start":903.677,"end":913.325,"text":"我最近幾次到各縣市看災我都特別要求我們不要那個儀式型的簡報講話等等我只要聽聽現場的狀況所以我們都沒有公開的儀式也不會主動的通知那這一點"},{"start":942.447,"end":942.467,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":260,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（15時23分）謝謝主席，我請卓院長、農業部陳部長還有環境部彭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、農業部陳部長和環境部彭部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家辛苦，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：站整天不簡單。我們今天講的這個特別條例是丹娜絲颱風、七二八豪雨，緊接著就是楊柳颱風，楊柳颱風在臺東、屏東造成很大的傷害，我去現場看，事實上我也分不清這是新傷還是舊傷。這個是在來義看到的，那個野溪都壞掉了，淹得一塌糊塗，連橋都斷了，我就問那個鄉長，這是新傷還是舊傷？他說不知道，分不清了。所以我跟院長這邊確認，丹娜絲颱風加上七二八豪雨，因為豪雨在屏東、原鄉那邊6天的雨量幾乎是兩千八百公釐以上，已經跟莫拉克颱風差不多，甚至於超過。楊柳颱風的風速有14、15級，所以在屏東、臺東也應該要檢討一下，因為災害現在也分不清了。院長，這樣可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這次的特別預算名稱縱然叫做中央政府「丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建」，我們知道七二八之後是連續性豪雨，直到楊柳颱風來，這是一個連貫性的氣候變遷。日前我到南部去的時候，我們已經正式公布，楊柳颱風所受的災害，因為也是在七二八之後的連續豪雨，應該歸納成整個適用範圍……"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝院長。第二個問題，這次楊柳颱風在屏東，霧臺、三地門大社那邊，有5間房子，16戶人家的房子，土都崩下來了，現在那裡他們要求，以前禮納里，就是八八風災的時候，永久屋沒有下來、也沒有切結，像這一些是不是可以從寬處理，院長可以考慮嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：實際的狀況是不是請屏東縣政府跟我們前進指揮所辦公室一起來研究？我們希望用更簡便的方法從優、從寬認定。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，因為對他們來講是一輩子的大事，對我們來講可能是小事。上次我在關心的就是從寬認定，剛剛有好幾位委員也一樣、大家都很關心，我發現這個災害，不管哪一個政黨都非常關心，而且都以百姓、人民為出發點，真的是很溫暖！我這裡也要跟……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝大院非常快的速度通過了特別條例，以及今天來審查特別預算，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來就是農損從寬認定，上次我提的，就像嘉義，蚵棚一坪補助500元，部長，對不對？對吧！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：叫鄉公所的人要坐「牌仔車」去現場照相，去看的時候，風浪那麼大，說是哪有這麼苛刻、無聊，一個農業部居然會做這種要求！用空拍機、用搖桿，這是很現代化的東西。所以不要再去做那些，很無聊、違反科學，現在空拍機、無人機那麼多，直接去拍一拍，全品項、全方位，剛剛你講的，要以百姓為優先嘛！我就一直在講，農業部存在的最大價值就是照顧這300萬農漁牧的人民、國民，農漁牧有300萬人！關稅會不會影響到，也都很煩惱，到現在也不知道、也不透明，都搞不清楚！所以院長，一定要好好地把持住，這些人就是我們的國民、我們最疼惜的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告一下，目前勘災的部分，在路上就是用勘災app，照相以後公所就會認定，大部分、很多的公所都已經確認可以用這個了。至於海上部分，我們也協調公所，是不是必要時我們用空拍機直接去拍，如果要出去看一定是在風平浪靜的時候，這個我們在公所也會確認，後續我們會把海上這些空拍系統直接納到現勘的一個作業規範裡面。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝部長，很辛苦，表現得非常好。","剛剛有好幾個委員也在講，你補助的金額、農損的金額，院長，我要再跟你說一遍，你用成本的20%來補助，然後農損的金額就是用那20%！實際上成本就要再多5倍了，所以你每次公布的農損金額都很少，這樣是顯示什麼？顯示災害很輕，還是你在蒙蔽什麼？院長，這種的計算方式是不是要改？這個沒有人看得下去。"],["卓院長榮泰：計算的標準應該是行之多年，一直沒有檢討，那農業部應該來檢討，尤其面對極端氣候，全面檢討是必要的。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，用這種方式計算農損，我們實在看不下去，實際上損失50億，你跟我說損失五、六千萬，笑死人了！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會衡量現在整個財政的結構，儘量來幫助農、漁民，但是……"],["蘇委員清泉：你用成本的20%來補助，我上次講了，玉荷包一分地可以收成二、三十萬，結果你一分地補助六千、八千。"],["卓院長榮泰：可能補償的方式沒有辦法達到市價或實際上的價錢，我們是讓它能夠再起耕作的作用，幫它能夠重新再起來，這個才是我們的作用。"],["蘇委員清泉：你要讓農民有一點點感覺嘛，而且一塊農地一年才補助一次喔，第二次就沒有了，所以這個金額要提高，不是我講的，剛才好幾位委員都這樣講，郭國文委員也講，所以這要檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請農業部來檢討，讓它能夠重新復耕，用這樣的方式來檢討。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，我再跟你講我們東港的情形，院長，你今天要答應我啦，我今天早上出來，東港又在淹水了，每次如果大潮就淹，東港市區有一個成功抽水站，有一個光復抽水站，那是在馬英九時代、在阿扁時代就蓋的，現在這邊只剩東港大排還有牛埔溪交會的那個地方，如果大潮起來應該要做水閘門，那個水閘門我去會勘好幾次了，就只差經費，也沒有多少錢，請院長關心一下，答應我，這笑死人了！一個月淹兩次，如果颱風又來……"],["卓院長榮泰：適度提升兩邊的護堤是一個方式，或是如果有抽水站、抽水機，加大它抽水的……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒錯，做個抽水站在那邊，就比照市區那兩個，這樣就解決了。這如果做下去，我們一輩子都感謝你。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請經濟部水利署去現場了解，如果能夠緊急的或優先來處理，我們來納入檢討。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，不然的話，你看每一個月淹兩次。","損害的部分，我不用再贅述，剛剛已經有講了。關於溫室的東西，我這一次發現屏東的韌性比較強，屏東一天到晚被吹得歪七扭八，這次雲嘉南百年沒有颱風直撲，陳部長和我常常去屏東勘災，大家的韌性都變得比較強，所以我這次看臺南那邊的災害，真的是很大、很突然，所以一定要寬列，屏東、臺東比照。","下一張，再來就是跟環境部有關的，部長，你也很認真啦，我們環境部處理嘉義魚塭的太陽能板，我們有去現勘，這是東港、佳冬的外海，那個太陽能板，現在知道是臺灣的公司標一標再移轉給泰國的公司，真的還是假的我不知道啦，但這如果違法就要辦啦，你罰它300萬，罰3次，它也不吃你這一套啊！你說什麼要拆去苗栗還是哪裡分解，它在現場就給你分解啦！部長、院長，你們怎樣看？你們看得下去嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，元昱科技公司已經被我們罰到900萬了，它也提出了一個清理計畫書，當然我們還是給它時間，因為它有給我們一個新的承諾數字，9月5號以前。現在滯洪池上面已經沒有了，它是放在旁邊，但是我們認為它還是違反廢清法，我們還是給它一點點時間，那他們提出來希望9月5號以前，我們現在正在審這個計畫，如果它真的是非常糟糕的話，我已經公開說了，我會接手，而且代位求償，然後給它最重的處罰，甚至它以後都沒有辦法營運，所以這個它要負起責任的啦。","另外一個剛剛委員說的是屏東的寶晶，這個已經被我們退回去了，希望他們再補正，因為當地算是優良的農地，他們必須考量現地的狀況，所以我們環境部已經退回去了。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，我看嘉義那個光電板可能是擺爛，不然就是放著讓它倒，到最後還是政府要去擦屁股。"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部是強力的要求它，我們到現場去看，我也強力的要求它。"],["蘇委員清泉：產權是誰的？還是公司都插暗股，亂七八糟，要叫檢調下去查啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：相同地區有其他本土的廠商跟我們配合的意願，結果都很好，就這一家，它這個態度上，我覺得大有問題，環境部已經連續開罰，而且有更強硬的手段。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們臺灣壞了三十幾個地方，大的有三十幾個地方，其他都清完了，只剩下這個地方，就是新庄滯洪池。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我們看老埤農場，這個剛剛部長有講了，我非常欽佩，你把這三家公司都退回了，院長，這就是屏東內埔的老埤農場，這裡有差不多800公頃都在種茶，種平地茶、有坡度的茶，現在整個都要弄光電板，有三家公司，也是水土保護區，什麼區都有啦，而我們的環境部把它退回了，我覺得很有勇氣，不過我看他們會再捲土重來，我們不要再破壞我們的環境了，好不好？再搞一搞又變成土石流了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，我已經公開宣布，地方有重大疑慮的、破壞生態的，我們都一律不應該核准。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，院長的承諾。","這個是更誇張的，我們的臺東沿岸要設置五十幾支風車，現在要再去屏東的枋山還有獅子鄉再放11支，東海岸反風車大聯盟已經成立，而我們屏東這裡，我們也加入了，叫做東海岸南迴恆春半島反風車大聯盟，這就是預計在枋山那裡要設置的。以2012年來看，一個風車造價是1.2億、1.3億，現在可能搞不好兩億都要了，以前海上的風車一支要8億，現在可能要十幾億，所以這個成本很高，賣給台電賣到6塊、7塊、8塊，1.1塊錢的核能你不用，你去用七、八塊錢的，然後虧損一大堆。這個都是要新蓋的，一支風車一年的發電量最多五、六百萬度而已，然後還有低頻噪音的問題，所以他們現在成立反對大聯盟，我屏東也加入，他們要組團來環境部、來經濟部抗爭，我說：我支持你們。臺東的也要加入，這不要再搞了啦！花東那邊大颱風來都是首當其衝，16級、17級。院長，前兩天蘭嶼17級爆表，風車擋得住嗎？風機葉片如果斷掉呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我其實已經在臺東有公開說對於這樣的，我們是不鼓勵也不支持，現在是它想要開發，但是也報告委員，我們在過去這幾個月，我們已經把幾個類似這樣的案例全部擋掉了、全部退回了，所以請委員放心。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，因為我剩下30秒。院長，我要跟你說，你最近去屏東，我都沒出席，我都不太想去，為什麼你知道嗎？要通知、不通知，隨便你們，有人要通知就通知，不要通知就不要通知。第二，去到現場，我們好像透明人一樣，我們在野黨的委員好像透明人一樣，感覺很差喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，抱歉！我最近幾次到各縣市勘災，我都特別要求，我們不要那個儀式型的簡報、講話等等，我只要聽聽現場的狀況，所以我們都沒有公開的儀式，也不會主動的通知，這一點請委員能夠體諒，對大家都一樣，可能有委員會自己來，我們沒有特別通知，但以後我們再改進，是不是不一定都用這種方式。"],["蘇委員清泉：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請邱議瑩委員質詢，王鴻薇委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00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你都可以跨出到農畜社了對不對農畜社是屬於農業部的你會跨出到那邊你不能跨到這一個經濟部所屬中小企業嗎中小企業的經濟不變得太差啦我跟你們講應該是要來靠這中小企業啦"},{"start":190.325,"end":219.367,"text":"你輸客一個啦OK 好 委員另外一個是說因為清運是一筆很大的費用因為一噸大概花四萬多塊所以基本上我們那個部分其實有擴大額外再吸收中小企業我有算過你們總共加成原來是71.78億至少有四萬噸的一個量能可以補助所以說你還可以接受新的對象我幫你算過錢這個部分那個內政部可不可以從弱勢戶擴大到一般戶 部長我們在這次特別預算裡面大概現在預框是四億左右"},{"start":220.208,"end":237.207,"text":"那如果說我們那個補助計畫裡面把現在你講的弱勢戶先核算一下如果有可能的話如果委員在我們這個預算在審查的過程當中有提這個案我們會遵照立法院所通過的議題來辦理那我再來進行提案謝謝部長的支持那後續我想要請農業部一下"},{"start":239.863,"end":259.674,"text":"兩位請回 謝謝院長 農業部的部分這次石棉瓦的問題也很多石棉瓦問題多在哪裡多在總共有四百場那裡頭有一百場當中是進行樹理還有三百場那這三百場當中有備時還是傳統的續勤社就是不是暗場登記的這補充內行的都知道問題是這個部分 趁這個機會你這邊農業部有兩個一個叫重建 一個叫輔導"},{"start":268.519,"end":283.519,"text":"那輔導的部份是什麼意思呢就是能夠讓他升級嘛或者讓他轉型嘛我想說在補電的部分就蓄木業的這個部份當他要另外轉型的時候能不能讓他多一點力氣部長"},{"start":284.961,"end":312.93,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們這邊的天災的部分大概分為三項一項是就是天然災救助辦法補助下去救助下去不夠用補助的方式補助已經拉到八成了所以這個部分是可以讓他做四度的升級那如果他要改成更高級的這些續勤社的時候我們另外會有專案的方式用個案的方式去處理對啦 因為這一種多半你的白色是你那個是高級的"},{"start":313.55,"end":331.504,"text":"而且傳統的都是傳統的 古的那個是假的啦 是假的啦那他如果賺錢的時候 要改做水聯市的你應該讓他倒開一個啦 這樣等於是把它升級嘛這是一種 另外一種它是已經不行了 破損它不行 它要離幕你是不是要考慮一下 把過去那個離幕專案"},{"start":333.685,"end":352.093,"text":"斷出來讓他離開這個部分才是一種比較好的方式我本身建議你還有一個今年天災不斷我也會刊好幾次結果我們天災一年只能補助一次部長我也跟院長報告多少%你知道嗎20%而已我說拜託院長跟部長"},{"start":353.83,"end":370.112,"text":"做到要死一年頭停頓補助補助去10%那怎麼搞啦院長跟部長是不是嘗試一下長期以來天然救助辦法裡頭只有20%的數字真的是民眾級被拿到也是苦不堪言啦"},{"start":371.694,"end":399.986,"text":"我跟那個委員報告我非常認同你的一個想法就是說我們現在的天然災害救助辦法的救助金的設計是用成本的20%去省不過我們這次去看了有時候很多它損失是全圓全毀但是我們救助只有成本的20%那這次因為大規模我們還有一些所謂的專案補助但是平常是沒有的所以我們也一直在思考我們是不是應該"},{"start":401.286,"end":427.523,"text":"因為農民對於天災不是他願意面對的那這個時候我們是不是可以適度的去提高他的救助的計算的標準這個也會回應到很多委員一直要求我們提高救助金要打破20%的限制啦對 提高救助金還是在20%的限制會變成只有隨著物價走所以我們這一次會全盤的重新來考量他的他的這個救助標準的20%是不是可以往上拉部長 應該拉高"},{"start":428.063,"end":430.845,"text":"所以說這一次災損的過程當中除了這一個重建20%往上拉打破之外"},{"start":446.176,"end":471.769,"text":"趁這個機會輔導轉型包括我們之前提到的有關於溫室網的部分都要請部長多費心一下這些真的是很多另外復興的部分就是以後整個台南連續這一年之內跟院長報告我們總共四個災情那個災區已經深到人心了所以將來如何觀光復興農村旅遊的部分也請部長指示一下交通部跟農業部一起來帶動一下好不好 院長"},{"start":474.453,"end":499.724,"text":"謝謝後面的部分我還有一件事情就是有關於經濟部接下來治水的工程要來就教院長跟經濟部經濟部這次編例的地方預算的搶修還有防汛的設備16億當中本席在所屬的這次最嚴重的南北門區北門區七股細湖還有沙洲富裕還有大寮排水的部分"},{"start":500.824,"end":528.04,"text":"這個已經在協調台南市政府向中央提報已經有高達18億之多了18億之多呢院長我跟經濟部要求說經濟部說等到納入這個4年1000億的預算下一次的狀況1000億還沒通過啊我是跟院長拜託一下這18億當中呢裡頭有屬於這個短中長期的部分就是自然工法跟水工模型測試大概要5億元這個部分全部先花這5億元"},{"start":529.241,"end":556.963,"text":"你總共有66億嘛你撥5億先來做一個比較中長期的部分另外13億的部分再納入1000億的治水預算院長你不能責成經濟部支持一下台南治水能夠速度快一點就是針對搶秋搶險目前看到的必須趕快把它停止下來所在擴大的未來比較中期的規劃就會納到未來的4年1000億裡面來看所以我經濟部請水利署在把委員剛剛所建議的"},{"start":557.643,"end":572.566,"text":"那個地方的一個狀況是不是優先可以來納入優先納入啦好 我們來檢討謝謝院長那我跟院長說明一下為什麼一年四次淹三次原因在哪裡 原因在本席的選區當中剛好曾文希啊"},{"start":573.781,"end":583.311,"text":"鄭文希流域當中他只要雨大的時候就要洩洪你知道洩洪最大的放流量每秒是2150噸這2150噸是八八風災當初的紀錄"},{"start":589.737,"end":603.589,"text":"另外的部分每天累積的降雨量也是高達400毫米速度都非常的快以至於這種情況一邊在洩洪一邊在下雨所以很容易淹水所以這應該是淹水當中"},{"start":605.931,"end":631.276,"text":"地區當中的重中之重也是應該治水當中最首要的目標所以我要拜託院長跟經濟部要多花一點心思在台南的治水的這部分除了南北門區特別是南科區它又是科技重鎮它雖然南科區裡頭有滋洪池可是周遭的地區都是從業人員沒有辦法上班沒有辦法上班它就影響到生產"},{"start":632.632,"end":651.735,"text":"這是環環相扣的事情所以南科區的治水非常關鍵還有就是曾文區本身就是最大受害的就是馬道那個地方幾乎每次下雨就淹所以真的要請這個經濟部這個水利署所屬的這個單位把台南的治水"},{"start":652.556,"end":668.564,"text":"這個曾文熙言語列為重中之重那個次長跟委員報告那曾文熙的這個排水系統的一個治理計畫在去年12月26號已經核定了那現在水利署跟台南市政府正在辦理這個曾文熙排水治理工程的一個用地取得"},{"start":669.284,"end":689.249,"text":"還有先期作業的這個相關的一些工作那等到我們的這個明年度這個計劃核定之後我們就可以工程可以試我希望能夠趕快看到成果啦那後續的部分我還要就教於這個院長的部分院長你已經有對外宣示說我們的這個台電的這個主要電纜要地下化"},{"start":689.909,"end":714.18,"text":"我覺得這是很好的這是眾多人的期待但是我跟院長報告說明一下我們內政部在2000年的時候就有通過所謂的共同管線管道法第12條當中就規定市區道路修築的時候應該是把電線纜的部分包括電力電信有線電視路燈交通號誌等等這個都是這次受損"},{"start":715.547,"end":740.495,"text":"嚴重的地方啦我想說你乾脆你都要花台電都地下化了那地下化都有地下管溝嘛地下管溝一次成本做的時候八大管線通路你都一併可以執行嘛就要求他們一併做下去嘛像這一次的這一個那個NCC的部分花了2.95元2.65元是給業者重建那我問一下業者有沒有做什麼東西"},{"start":741.824,"end":755.539,"text":"你給他錢業者如果沒有相對做的話也沒有辦法清理天總統下去的時候說以後的這一切整個電纜通訊的韌性強化三大業者都要要求每一次電話都能夠通如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":757.601,"end":778.184,"text":"院長你要指示一下NCC還有相關單位把這些管線單位把它弄成一個共同管線這才是真正的國家基礎建設把它砍敗在一起共同來思考一來它可以強化任性之外二來還可以讓入坪專案不會常常被破壞"},{"start":780.2,"end":797.091,"text":"水挖完換油 油挖完換電電化完換電信每天都挖來挖去 挖比賽的所以我是想說院長 趁這個機會你既然有這個決心已經要從事這個地下化工程能不能把電纜 電信還有交通耗資等等一併思考 院長"},{"start":798.432,"end":825.397,"text":"有些城市都市已經往這個方向已經做進制了這個經驗跟委員的建議是一樣的我們在規劃的時候就應該加強所謂橫向的一個評估把它融合在一起這個我也請經濟部跟其他的相關部會在規劃的時候要一起來做這個重要的規劃工作這些跨部會的部分要請院長慎重指示一下趁這個機會強化我們真正屬於基礎前瞻的建設那另外一個部分"},{"start":826.317,"end":852.338,"text":"院長剛剛林俊賢大家提我自己感同身透這一次呢第一線的公所人員真的是負擔沉重非常的大我們這次所謂的這個從優從寬我們真的做到了歷史以來我們條件真的最好這點一定要來坤町但是為什麼沒有辦法重塑跟重檢呢一個就是說你把舉證的責任都交給這些災民萬一有火箭輸不爽的 地震的或是傷害一大堆"},{"start":855.919,"end":877.562,"text":"那這些舉證的責任導致說我們這個電子化政府推了幾十年了包括所得資料、工商登記、稅籍資料、地址、戶籍這炸到有了啦我意思是說應該我們有一個查證的系統根本不用叫民眾拿那麼多資料來也不用讓基層的公務人員那麼累"},{"start":878.183,"end":893.285,"text":"本身透過電腦連線的時候來查證的時候你某某人你叫過公文我來查查的你這裡的資料都有啊你當時有放養登記你當時有做一些工商登記我都有啊我就不用全部提來了這樣就是一了百了啦"},{"start":893.826,"end":910.603,"text":"一來基層的不用那麼累二來民眾也不用等待那麼久這是第一個本席提醒你的地方第二個本席要肯定你的地方這一次把這個災防指揮所設下來因為依照我們的災防法只是協調所而已你把它拉高"},{"start":912.1,"end":924.95,"text":"結條的部分把重鎮都放在地方政府這一次中央直接下去指揮這是好的做法我希望將來災防法要入法把它成為以後行政的慣性遇到地方政府無法執行的時候中央就必須要介入好 謝謝郭國文委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（15時7分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長，還有環境部彭部長，以及內政部劉部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、環境部、內政部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：院長好，兩位部長好。上面看到的這個地圖，是屬於環境部跟民間團體所做的石綿瓦地圖，其中臺南是全國最多，總共五萬四千多戶，總量數大概10萬，但是臺南整個行政區是37個區，受災戶高達17個區，依照環境部的估計，恐怕臺南10萬噸當中，只有1萬噸受損，就17個行政區來說，我覺得環境部可能要重新再估計一下是不是只有占十分之一？因為37個行政區，怎麼可能17個區受損，將近快一半行政區受損，但石綿廢棄物只有1萬噸？這是第一個。","另外一個部分，我必須肯定環境部跟臺南市政府清除的速度非常快，已經接近一半，但是我想要跟環境部建議一下，我們清、拆、運一條龍的這種方式，目前為止，剛剛彭部長在回答林俊憲委員的時候說20萬補助中小企業，中小企業補助20萬「生食都無夠，哪有通曝乾」來拆這些石綿瓦，這不夠，那20萬不是包山包海，淹水讓企業都賠很多錢，補助那20萬已經讓經濟部被罵很慘，所以環境部應該要承擔起來，我是不是請院長指示一下環境部，災區裡頭的中小企業石綿瓦也請環境部用這個7億加7.8億，總共14.8億來支付？這是第一點。就是擴大辦理，因為這是政府的政策，環境部現在就要推石綿瓦的清運計畫嘛！","另外也拜託劉部長，劉部長這次編了21億，在做一些房屋老舊拆除的部分，但是是針對弱勢戶，拆除的過程連同石綿瓦是有補助，沒有錯，但是是不是可以擴大到一般戶？一般戶的石綿瓦拆除也需要專業，因為一般人在拆除石綿瓦不可能全副武裝，一下子防塵衣、N95口罩、防護鏡，又雙層手套，不會那麼費工啦！我家要拆，有可能搞這麼多嗎？一定要拜託專業的來拆嘛！這兩點是不是能夠擴大來辦理？預算都有了，一個20億，一個是加了7億，是不是請院長裁示一下，或者2位部長回答一下？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：請彭部長先回答。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們現在原來的費用是7.9億，還有額外七點多億，大概14億左右，是針對農畜舍還有一般的民宅，而我們環境部是負責清運，內政部、經濟部，還有農業部都有負責拆除，拆除有他們的分工。"],["郭委員國文：你們都可以跨到農畜舍了，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["郭委員國文：農畜舍是屬於農業部的，你們都能跨到那邊了，難道不能跨到經濟部所屬的中小企業嗎？經濟部在中小企業的預算編太少了，我跟你說，你們那筆預算應該是要來cover這些中小企業，你思考一下啦！好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：OK。委員，另外一個是因為清運是一筆很大的費用……"],["郭委員國文：我知道。"],["彭部長啓明：因為一噸大概花四萬多塊，所以基本上，我們那個部分其實有擴大額外再吸收中小企業，已經在解決。"],["郭委員國文：我有算過，你們總共加起來原本是7.78億，至少有4萬噸的量能可以補助啦！所以你們還可以接受新的補助對象，我幫你算過錢啦！針對這個部分，內政部可不可以從弱勢戶擴大到一般戶？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在這次特別預算裡大概現在預匡4億左右啦！如果我們那個補助計畫裡，把現在你講的弱勢戶先核算一下，如果有可能的話，委員在這次預算審查的過程當中有提這個案，我們會遵照立法院所通過預算來辦理。"],["郭委員國文：好，我再來進行提案，也謝謝部長的支持。2位部長請回，謝謝。接下來，我請教一下農業部。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["郭委員國文：院長，針對農業部的部分，這次石綿瓦的問題也很多啦！石綿瓦問題多在哪裡呢？多在總共有400場，那裡頭有100場當中是進行清理，還有300場，這300場當中有八成是傳統的畜禽舍啦！就是不是案場登記的，這部長是內行的都知道。問題是呢？這部分趁這個機會，你們農業部有兩個：一個叫重建，一個叫輔導。輔導的部分是什麼意思呢？就是能夠讓他們升級，或者讓他們轉型嘛！部長，可不可以就畜牧業的這部分，當他們要另外轉型的時候，能不能讓他們多一點力氣？請教部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們這次天災的部分大概分為三項，一項是農業天然災害救助辦法補助下去，如果不夠，我們用補助的方式，補助已經拉到八成了……"],["郭委員國文：對，我知道。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這個部分是可以讓他們作適度的升級，如果他們要改成更高級的這些畜禽舍的時候，我們另外會有專案的方式，也就是用個案的方式去處理。"],["郭委員國文：對啦！因為這一種多半、八成是高級的，這些傳統的都是舊的，養雞的、養豬的，他們如果趁這個時候要改成水簾式的，你們應該要幫忙一下，這樣等於是幫他們升級嘛！這是一種。另外一種，它是已經不行了、破損到不行，他們要離牧，你們是不是要考慮一下把過去那個離牧專案再端出來？讓他們離開，這才是一種比較好的方式，本席建議你。還有一個，今年天災不斷，我也會勘好幾次，結果我們天災一年只能補助一次，部長，我也跟院長報告，你們知道補助多少百分比嗎？20%而已啦！我就拜託院長跟部長，做到要死，一整年只補助20%，這怎麼夠啦！院長跟部長，是不是嘗試一下，長期以來農業天然災害救助辦法裡只有20%的數字，真的是民眾即便拿到也是苦不堪言啦！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我非常認同你的想法，就是我們現在農業天然災害救助辦法的救助金設計是用成本的20%作為計算……"],["郭委員國文：對，20%。"],["陳部長駿季：不過我們這次去看了，有時候他們的損失很多是全園全毀，但是我們救助只有成本的20%……"],["郭委員國文：對，是用成本。"],["陳部長駿季：這次因為是大規模，我們還有一些所謂的專案補助，但是平常是沒有的，所以我們也一直在思考，是不是應該……因為農民對於天災也不是他們願意面對的，而在這個時候，我們是不是可以適度地去提高他們救助的計算標準？這個也會回應到很多委員一直要求我們提高救助金……"],["郭委員國文：要打破20%的限制啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，提高救助金還是在20%的限制，會變成只有隨著物價走，所以我們這一次會全盤的重新考量救助標準的20%是不是可以往上拉？"],["郭委員國文：對啦，部長，應該拉高啦！拉高到40%……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我請農業部趕快來規劃及檢討，並把補助拉高，這個是我們現在應該做的。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝院長的支持啦！這一次災損的過程當中，除了重建20%打破往上拉之外，趁這個機會輔導轉型，包括之前提到關於溫室網的部分，都要請部長多費心一下，這些真的是很多。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：另外關於復興的部分，跟院長報告，整個臺南連續一年之內總共4個災情，災區已經深入人心了，所以將來觀光如何復興及農村旅遊的部分，也請院長指示交通部跟農業部一起來帶動，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。","後面的部分我還有一件事情，就是關於經濟部接下來的治水工程要來就教院長跟經濟部。經濟部這次編列的地方預算關於搶修還有防汛設備的66億當中，本席在所屬的這一次最嚴重的南、北門區、七股潟湖沙洲復育，還有大寮排水的部分，已經在協調臺南市政府向中央提報高達18億之多了。院長，我跟經濟部要求，經濟部說要等到納入4年1,000億的預算，下一次的狀況1,000億也還沒通過啊！我跟院長拜託一下，18億當中有屬於短、中、長期的部分，就是自然工法跟水工模型測試大概要5億元，這個部分能不能先花這5億元？總共有66億嘛！先撥5億來做一個比較中長期的部分，另外的13億部分再納入1,000億的治水預算，院長能不能責成經濟部支持一下臺南治水的速度快一點？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次的特別預算就是針對搶修、搶險，目前看到的必須趕快停止損害擴大的部分，比較中期的規劃就會納到未來4年1,000億裡面來看，所以我請經濟部和水利署把委員剛剛所建議關於地方的狀況，是不是可以優先納入這一次的……"],["郭委員國文：優先納入啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們來檢討。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝院長。我跟院長說明一下，為什麼1年4次淹3次，原因在哪裡？原因在本席的選區當中，剛好有曾文溪，曾文溪流域只要雨大的時候就要洩洪，你知道洩洪最大的放流量，每秒是2,150噸，2,150噸是八八風災當初的紀錄。另外每天累積的降雨量也是高達400毫米，速度都非常地快，以致於一邊在洩洪，一邊在下雨，所以很容易淹水，這應該是淹水地區當中的重中之重，也應該是治水當中最首要的目標。所以我要拜託院長跟經濟部要多花一點心思在臺南的治水，除了南、北門區，特別南科區又是科技重鎮，雖然南科區裡頭有滯洪池，可是周遭的地區都是從業人員沒有辦法上班。沒有辦法上班就影響到生產，這是環環相扣的事情，所以南科區的治水非常關鍵。還有曾文區本身最大受害的就是麻豆，那個地方幾乎每次下雨就淹，所以真的要請經濟部水利署所屬的單位，把臺南曾文溪沿域的治水列為重中之重。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，曾文溪排水系統的治理計畫，在去年12月26日已經核定了，現在水利署跟臺南市政府正在辦理曾文溪排水治理工程的用地取得，還有先期作業的相關工作，等到明年度計畫核定之後，工程就會發包……"],["郭委員國文：好啦！我希望能夠趕快看到成果啦！後續我還要就教於院長，院長已經有對外宣示台電的主要電纜要地下化，我覺得這是很好的，也是眾多人的期待。但是我跟院長報告說明一下，內政部在2000年的時候通過共同管道法，其中第十二條規定市區道路修築的時候，應該把電線電纜的部分，包括電力、電信、有線電視、路燈、交通號誌等等，這個都是這次受損嚴重的地方啦！我想你都要台電地下化了，地下化都有地下管溝嘛！地下管溝一次成本去做的時候，包括八大管線通路都可以一併執行嘛！就要求他們一併做下去嘛！像這一次NCC的部分花了2.95億元，2.65億元是給業者重建，那我問一下，業者有沒有做什麼東西？你給他錢，業者如果沒有相對做的話，也沒有辦法啊！前幾天總統下去的時候說以後整個電纜、通訊韌性強化，三大業者都要要求，每一支電話都要能夠通，如果是這樣的話，請院長指示一下NCC還有相關單位，把這些管線弄成共同管線，這才是真正的國家基礎建設！把它combine在一起，共同來思考，一來可以強化韌性，二來還可以貫徹路平專案，不會讓路面常常被破壞，因為水挖完換油，油挖完換電，電挖完換電信，每天都在挖來挖去，挖比賽的，所以我是想院長既然有這個決心，已經要從事地下化工程，能不能趁這個機會把電纜、電信還有交通號誌等等一併思考？"],["卓院長榮泰：有些城市已經往這個方向建置了，我想這個經驗跟委員的建議是一樣的，我們在規劃的時候就應該加強所有橫向的評估，把它融合在一起，這個我會請經濟部和其他的相關部會在規劃的時候，一起來做這個重要的規劃工作。"],["郭委員國文：這些跨部會的部分，要請院長慎重指示一下，趁這個機會強化我們真正屬於基礎、前瞻的建設。","另外一個部分，院長，剛剛林俊憲委員提到，我自己感同身受，這一次第一線的公所人員真的是負擔沉重，這次所謂的從優、從寬，我們真的做到了，有史以來我們的條件真的最好，這點一定要予以肯定，但是為什麼沒有辦法從速跟從簡呢？一個就是你把舉證的責任都交給這些災民，整天戶政事務所、地政事務所的一大堆，老實說我們的電子化政府推了幾十年了，包括所得資料、工商登記、稅籍資料、地籍、戶籍早就有了啦，我的意思是我們應該有一個查證的系統，根本不用叫民眾拿那麼多資料來，也不用讓基層的公務人員那麼累，透過電腦連線來查證的時候，譬如某某人叫郭國文，我一查這些資料都有了，什麼時候有放養登記、什麼時候有做工商登記，政府都有，民眾就不用全部拿來了，這樣就是一了百了啦！一來基層公務人員不用那麼累，二來民眾也不用等待那麼久，這是第一個本席提醒你的地方。第二個本席要肯定你的地方是，這一次設立災防指揮所，因為根據我們的災防法，只是協調所而已，你把它拉高，協調的部分把重鎮都放在地方政府，這一次中央直接下去指揮，這是好的作法，我希望將來災防法要入法，把它變成以後行政的慣性，遇到地方政府無法執行的時候，中央就必須要介入。"],["卓院長榮泰：這次是數量龐大，復原的時間可能很久，這個是復原指揮所以後的辦公室，我們就朝這個方向來做。"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯，但是將來比較可長可久的方式還是要用災防法修法會比較好一點，這是本席的建議。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們來研議，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝院長，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","接下來請蘇清泉委員質詢，邱議瑩委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e790a910f8130b631bdd7691804860db32efdcf4f15ed44e1529f2c2abc92875f3cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"14:51:40 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本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21.573,"end":34.632,"text":"林委員好 院長好本席我們肯定也感謝行政院即刻的呼應本席最早提出的希望我們能夠提出特別條例來"},{"start":36.665,"end":51.82,"text":"搶救這一次造成可以說台灣百年史上最嚴重的一次風災首先我想跟院長我們必須要了解到真實的狀況我現在發現中央跟地方的數據會有落差"},{"start":53.943,"end":80.833,"text":"譬如說 按照中央所統計我們現在 受理的污損的件數有三萬九千件核發的有一萬八千六百件但是根據台南市政府呢他受理的件數已經有四萬三千三百五十二件核發的有兩萬九千件那這個落差在什麼地方呢台南市政府的受理還有核發的件數"},{"start":82.401,"end":103.529,"text":"都是一專區啦但是呢現在中央所公佈的數字都是只有重災區就是台南市的17個行政區所以這個會產生一個數字的落差因為這些現在的手裡都公佈在網路上我希望這中央跟地方"},{"start":105.392,"end":132.412,"text":"這個公佈的數字啊應該要一致才對應該要一樣才對嘛我說台南市公佈的是專期要知道這一次的災區宣告是全市 全台南市都屬於災區啦但是我們中央現在所公佈的受理建築 核發建築就是說處判協啦來申報的 還有我核定的受理跟地方是有很大的一個不一樣那這個部分"},{"start":134.212,"end":156.793,"text":"我們再來看一下為什麼核發件數跟實際的受理件數會有落差呢當然我們有一些行政作業第一個有些如果你的申請的品項跟你提供的一些照片影片的數據那個證據有一點落差有些是需要現刊的"},{"start":158.344,"end":180.885,"text":"有的是申請你不符合資格啦比如說你沒有實際居住的事實有的是重複送件所以這都需要人力來審查所以我們現在缺的人力啦不是只有在現場你做工施工的工班的人力行政程序的人力非常的需求"},{"start":181.994,"end":205.328,"text":"你看 按照台南市政府的數字現在申請的 還沒申請你可不可以請您未住金的有13600戶一萬三千六百戶喔那如果按照我們中央的數字啊你來申請未住金 那還沒有合併不知道可不可以符合資格的有超過兩萬戶"},{"start":207.267,"end":234.673,"text":"這就是我跟你說的連行政程序的審查人力都非常短缺啦也讓院長知道啦 因為這檔位重災區啦都是在屬於比較偏鄉啦那你偏鄉的公所 區公所一般的編制人力就比較少那你現在鄉鄉下來喔 很多東西啦所以審查的速度很慢那我希望這個部分啊 中央現在啊有一點可以來"},{"start":235.866,"end":263.688,"text":"協助的 因為在我們的特別條例裡面的預算你有編了一億元在工程會所有的行政程序都在這因為我們要籌設災後復原重建辦公室期程跟特別預算的執行差不多到明年2026年底那這裡面就有包含人力包括縣幹的人力 流程審查的人力 評估等等"},{"start":264.778,"end":280.757,"text":"所以既然預算變態特別條例裡面是不是希望能夠趕快補充這個部分的審查人力先請陳主委解釋一下人數上的問題以及現在行政的資源人力問題因為數量的確很龐大"},{"start":284.962,"end":306.85,"text":"來申請了超過4萬件就台南市政府而言那重災區有17個區公所那我到區公所去看台南市政府每個區公所這17個區公所有進駐檢驗級以上的同仁相關人員都有進駐那每個區公所他也會動員志工在那邊協助審查"},{"start":307.29,"end":333.385,"text":"那當然一開始是量很多啦所以他為了謹慎因為我們有區分20平方公尺以下的20平方公尺以上是100平方公尺以上報來的資料未必準確啦所以承辦第一線的確壓力很大他也這個很謹慎的在審查不過現在已經五成以上都已經發放但是我用這個手裡給你們兩個參考就是說現在計案如三啦現在待審查的還有13,666件"},{"start":336.302,"end":364.648,"text":"因為申請了4萬多件 所以已經半數以上一個多月了喔 已經撥補下去了所以我是不是請這個部分看怎麼來協助 在增派人力因為你已經特別預算 你有兩個這個部分的預算了好 再來 不然蔡英文會認為我就送去申請衛助金 到現在也沒有消息到底是有準沒準 我是符合請領多少所以這樣子的話 也會產生民眾的誤解"},{"start":366.712,"end":381.692,"text":"這點我們請中央政府來注意一下還有我們房屋的修繕剛才我們指揮官 曾經的主委也特別報告政府設立一個媒合的平台數字先後有落差 但差不了多少"},{"start":383.639,"end":386.141,"text":"那完成簽約的目前只有405件所以喔"},{"start":405.936,"end":432.991,"text":"我同意 那我也支持 那我也加入政府的媒合平台到現在完成簽約的只有百分之十三啦好 完工的企鶴啊一百三十八斤啦占所有參與媒合平台的總戶數只有百分之四點五啦一個多月的時間啦齁所以如果你照這樣看下去"},{"start":434.473,"end":462.666,"text":"災後的修繕工作恐怕要 要休息很久我跟委員報告 申請件數將近四萬那麼區公所一一打電話去問或者是李幹事去家裡去問已經打百分之九十九 百分之九十九以上都問過了那需要來媒合的大概三千多萬你這有嚇啦你登記申請的跟完成媒合的因為你現在報告都報告九十九百嘛"},{"start":463.486,"end":482.702,"text":"這個我同意啦 這個是問過的有99%都同意來加入我們的媒合平台不是 這個沒有錯啦就是問過的99%以上那他同意政府來媒合大概3000處左右到8月22日是3263啦如果到8月25日應該有3500左右這裡面呢 媒合中的"},{"start":483.462,"end":501.934,"text":"三千多的 也有不參與的啦你意思是說我們沒有參加就對了他同意參與煤河 有的他已經自行修建或等待修建 那出品有人在做他就拜託他要做所以有需求的是三千五左右啦那這三千五呢 安排煤河 已經安排在煤河中的"},{"start":504.295,"end":529.336,"text":"已經98%以上的那因為裡面他有一些會比價所以呢所以才有這個簽約數大概600左右到今天應該600左右所以這個比例還不算很低啦你是針對4萬嗎如果是針對說他有需求的應該是3000了你的比例應該是我參與我同意我加入政府的媒體平台你到底"},{"start":530.046,"end":549.756,"text":"跟我們簽約的已經完工了那這個比例目前為止啊恐怕還很低啦所以 第一點你現在 剛才那指揮官有報告我們把全國的公班調來支援台南我不知道可以支援多久啦我希望喔 這時間可能要比我們想像的更長啦這時間可能要再等"},{"start":552.903,"end":579.662,"text":"陳主委你懂我意思吧這個那天禮拜六總統在台南訪視的時候他有說啦就是已經確定要媒合給這個廠商來做了沒有做好公班不會撤退好好好 請讓大家放心啦你如果參與我的政府的平台那我一定要幫你介紹公班啦你的意思是這樣嘛對那我們也希望這個時間能夠再加快"},{"start":580.757,"end":595.614,"text":"因為現在大家去電機後 他們都會覺得說我就當政府要來去嘛那你有知道齁 災民的心理是度日如年啊他們現在除了派去陪他 不能住他就等於沒有辦法回復到災前的生活嘛"},{"start":596.511,"end":621.104,"text":"如果以目前的來看 你說完工的有100多件嘛完工167 施工中263 備料145這是8月22 那如果今天來看應該是600件以上請我們再加油 這樣好不好我們希望再盡快加快速度啦另外就是還有一個數字就是 董事踢土的啦"},{"start":622.493,"end":624.435,"text":"我希望這個訊息能夠讓更多人知道"},{"start":642.096,"end":667.798,"text":"因為他那處派去 他如果不在大陰 沒用沒要修理他如果不把他拆掉 會成為環境的一個負擔啦你現在再落河沖浪喔 變成有可能啦 登閣落啦種種環境的汙染拆除的 我們政府會負擔低收 中低收 跟關懷戶的修繕 政府也會全額負擔你要願意 願意加入我們拆除 全部都讓他負擔嘛再來我們聽到那個石明華的青運啦"},{"start":668.84,"end":684.348,"text":"因為沒有這次的風災我們不知道很多人沒有注意到我們其實台灣的石棉瓦這個是非常嚴重的一項這真是我們的環境的負擔嘛我這裡有一個全國的一個調查啦台南的石棉瓦"},{"start":688.058,"end":708.025,"text":"總量大概10萬噸那這一次的風災啊大概帶清運有1萬5千噸那環境部已經開始進行災區的相關的一個清運那現在還有一個問題啦我請部長要考量一下就是說破損的石棉瓦的拆除問題你知道 這石棉瓦你不會找得到"},{"start":710.511,"end":736.69,"text":"要專業的人員才能拆喔他一破碎啊就一些細微纖維就飛出來了那個人 連皮膚都不可以碰觸到所以你拆除啦 一定要全副武裝啦防塵衣啦 護目鏡啦NGO服 口罩啦頂頂喔 手套所以拆除的速度也很慢相對的啊我如果怕他 我要拖很麻煩他也要叫個人啦這個法文喔 環境部對於"},{"start":738.365,"end":764.586,"text":"想要拆除 而目前就說他願意拆除他破損的生命好的房屋這部分要怎麼破損啊報告委員 那個內政部國土署他有補助一戶是兩萬塊然後所謂農蓄社也有然後一般的工廠也有現在有三個補助那我們環境部是負責清運的那清運也謝謝陳靜德政委協調還有院長也支持所以目前的這個經費在台南嘉義是沒有問題的"},{"start":765.492,"end":786.616,"text":"所以你現在負責一般民宅的薪金多少兩萬 工資呢工資二十萬所以不分資格啦 你只要願意拆我就補助你兩萬的拆除費用啦接下來就清運的事情啦這個在特別預算裡面我們也有編列啦我們希望利用這篇把過去這個環境的災難趕快把它處理掉"},{"start":790.283,"end":805.488,"text":"最後那個院長我也再次肯定院長因為本期在上次總質詢在質詢風災的時候我也特別有提到就是電網的韌性還有電纜的地下化問題"},{"start":806.656,"end":835.707,"text":"那我當時也特別明確指出啦希望能夠就在台17和台19因為這兩條路的基礎建設比較不嚴重所以你可以優先來列為電纜地下化的地方所以這次你也有列進來這一點喔電柱的評估台17台19兩線他們會優先來考量除非他是一個易淹水的或是地層下限或是土質鬆軟的那我們會克足一些工程上的困難來籌措裁員"},{"start":836.187,"end":856.783,"text":"那有一點我要特別提醒院長 除了電網台電的電纜以外我們這次風災也檢驗到我們的網路訊號 電信這現在三間 中華電信 台客大還有遠傳知道他們的訊號塔都有倒下來 幹嘛 讓基地來破損"},{"start":858.578,"end":876.224,"text":"我覺得啦 因為我們對他們怎麼設立這個信號的鐵塔其實是沒有一個標準要求我認為相關單位 NCC 這個部分你應該要要求電信業者 台電的喔 他們都有抗風系數喔"},{"start":877.196,"end":878.117,"text":"這個應該要因為他也要列為重要的國安基礎建設"},{"start":897.791,"end":925.704,"text":"那他們這次拿到特許執照我想大家都賺大錢啦遠傳也好 台客大也好 中華電信啦所以應該要負起最基本的一個社會責任他們應該要完善他們的基礎設施啦不然他們現在這幾天才知道他們都亂搞 亂調啦照電話調 所以電話調到他們就不信了網路也不信 電話也不信我會請你們相關的機關啊列為一個國家標準好不好 言語格的管制一定要他們提高標準而且設置的時候啊"},{"start":932.232,"end":933.315,"text":"好 謝謝林俊憲維基"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（14時51分）謝謝院長。本席邀請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：院長好。院長，本席肯定、也感謝行政院即刻呼應本席最早提出的，希望我們能夠提出特別條例來搶救這一次可以說造成臺灣百年史上最嚴重的一次風災。","首先，我想跟院長說，我們必須要了解真實的狀況，我現在發現中央跟地方的數據會有落差，譬如說，按照中央所統計的，我們現在受理的屋損件數有3萬9,000件，核發的有1萬8,600件；但是根據臺南市政府受理的件數已經有4萬3,352件，核發的有2萬9,000件，這個落差在什麼地方？臺南市政府受理還有核發的件數都是全市，但是現在中央所公布的數字都是只有重災區，就是臺南市的17個行政區，所以這個會產生一個數字的落差，因為這些數字都公布在網路上，我希望中央跟地方公布的數字應該要一致才對。臺南市公布的是全市，要知道這一次的災區宣告是全臺南市都屬於災區，但是我們中央現在所公布的受理件數、核發件數，就是說房子壞掉來申報的，以及核定的數字，跟地方是有很大的不一樣。","這個部分我們再來看一下，為什麼核發件數跟實際受理件數會有落差呢？當然我們有一些行政作業，院長，你知道嘛！第一個，如果申請品項跟提供的一些照片、影片證據有一點落差，有些是需要現勘；有的是申請，但不符合資格，比如說沒有實際居住的事實；有些是重複送件，這些都需要人力來審查，所以我們現在缺的人力不是只有在現場施工的工班人力，行政程序的人力也非常的需求。你看，按照臺南市政府的數字，現在申請，但還沒確定可不可以請領慰助金的有1萬3,600戶，如果按照中央的數字，他來申請慰助金，還沒有核定、也不知道可不可以符合資格的有超過2萬戶，這就是我跟你說的，連行政程序的審查人力都非常短缺，也讓院長知道，因為這裡的重災區都是屬於比較偏鄉的，偏鄉的區公所本來編制的人力就比較少，現在突然湧進好幾萬件，審查的速度很慢。我希望這個部分，中央現在有一點可以來協助的，因為在我們特別條例裡面的預算，你有編了1億元在工程會，所有的行政程序都在這裡，因為我們說要籌設災後復原重建辦公室，它的期程跟特別預算的執行大概到明（2026）年年底，這裡面就有包含人力（現勘、流程、審查、評估等等），所以既然預算編在特別條例裡面，是不是希望能夠趕快補充這個部分的審查人力？這個是不是請……"],["卓院長榮泰：先請陳主委解釋一下人數上的問題，以及現在行政的支援人力問題。"],["林委員俊憲：請陳金德主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，這個數量的確龐大，因為來申請的超過4萬件，就臺南市政府而言，重災區有17個區公所，那麼我去看臺南市政府區公所，這17個區公所每個都有進駐簡任級以上同仁及相關人員，也會動員志工在那邊協助審查。當然一開始是量很多，所以為了謹慎，因為我們有區分20平方公尺以下、20平方公尺以上，甚至100平方公尺以上，報來的資料未必準確，所以第一線承辦人員的確壓力很大，他也很謹慎地在審查，不過現在已經五成以上都已經發放……"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，但是我用這個數據給你們兩個參考，就是說現在積案如山，現在待審查的還有1萬3,666件，所以……"],["陳主任委員金德：因為申請了四萬多件，所以半數以上已經撥補下去了。"],["林委員俊憲：一個多月了，所以這個部分是不是看怎麼來協助再增派人力？因為你的特別預算已經有編製到這個部分的預算。不然災民會認為送去申請的慰助金到現在也沒有消息，到底是有准還是不准？是符合請領多少？所以這樣子的話，也會產生民眾的誤解，這點也請中央注意一下。","還有我們房屋的修繕，剛剛指揮官陳金德主委也特別報告，政府設立一個媒合的平臺，數字稍微有落差，但差不了多少。現在完成媒合的，也讓我們卓院長知道，就是說我的房子壞掉，我現在來登記，政府要幫我介紹、媒合工班幫我蓋，有3,095件；完成簽約的目前只有405件，所以我同意、我也支持、我也加入政府的媒合平臺，到現在完成簽約的只有13%；完工蓋好的138間，占所有參與媒合平臺的總戶數只有4.5%，一個多月的時間，所以如果你照這樣看下去，災後的修繕工作恐怕要拉很長。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，申請件數將近4萬，那麼區公所一一打電話去問或是里幹事去家裡問，已經達99%以上都問過了。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：需要媒合的大概三千出頭……"],["林委員俊憲：你這裡有寫，登記申請的跟完成媒合的，因為你的報告都寫99%，這個我同意啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是問過的。"],["林委員俊憲：有99%都同意加入我們的媒合平臺。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是。"],["林委員俊憲：這個沒有錯。"],["陳主任委員金德：就是問過的99%以上，他同意政府媒合的大概三千出頭，到8月22日是3,263，如果到8月25日應該有3,500左右，這裡面三千多媒合中的……"],["林委員俊憲：你的意思是說也有不參加的？他同意參與媒合，但是他……"],["陳主任委員金德：有的他已經自行修建或等待修建，鄰居有人在做，他就拜託要做，所以有需求的是3,500左右，這3,500已經安排在媒合中、有找廠商跟他說的已經98%以上，因為裡面有一些會比價，所以到今天簽約數大概600左右，這個比例還不算很低啦……"],["林委員俊憲：差不多5、6%而已……"],["陳主任委員金德：不，你是針對4萬，如果是針對有需求的應該是3,000啦。"],["林委員俊憲：你的比例應該是，我參與、我同意、我加入政府的媒合平臺，有簽約的、已經完工的，這個比例目前為止恐怕還很低啦！所以第一點，剛才指揮官有報告，你們把全國的工班調來支援臺南，我不知道可以支援多久？我覺得這個時間可能要比我們想像得更長，這個時間可能要更長，陳主委，你懂我的意思吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：禮拜六總統在臺南訪視的時候，他有說已經確定要媒合給廠商來做了，沒有做好工班不會撤退。"],["林委員俊憲：好，最重要讓大家放心啦。你若參與政府的平臺，我一定會幫你介紹工班，你的意思是這樣嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我們也希望時間能夠再加快，因為現在大家去登記之後，都會覺得我就等政府來蓋，你要知道災民的心裡是度日如年啦！他們現在房子壞了、破了，不能住了，他就等於沒有辦法回復到災前的生活嘛，如果以目前來看，你說完工的有一百多件？"],["陳主任委員金德：完工167、施工中263、備料145，這是到8月22日，如果以今天來看應該是600件以上。"],["林委員俊憲：請你們再加油，好不好？希望再儘快、加快速度。另外，還有一個數字是同意拆除，就是房子沒有在住，或者已經破損不堪，同意完全拆除的，這個部分應該也要優先來辦理。"],["陳主任委員金德：同意拆除的全部由政府來負擔費用，包括廢棄物的去化等等。"],["林委員俊憲：我希望這個訊息能夠讓更多人知道，因為他的房子壞了，如果沒有在住、沒有要修理，若沒有把它拆掉會成為環境的一個負擔。萬一下雨或怎麼樣，有可能造成登革熱等種種環境的污染。"],["卓院長榮泰：拆除的我們政府會負擔，低收、中低收跟關懷戶的修繕，政府也會全額負擔。"],["林委員俊憲：只要願意加入拆除，全部由政府替他們負擔嘛！","再來，石綿瓦的清運，如果沒有這次的風災，我們不知道，很多人沒有注意到其實臺灣的石綿瓦是非常嚴重的一項真正的環境負擔，我這裡有一個全國的調查，臺南石綿瓦的總量大概10萬噸，這一次的風災，大概待清運有1萬5,000噸，環境部已經開始進行災區相關的清運。現在還有一個問題，我請部長要考量一下，就是破損的石綿瓦拆除的問題，院長，你知道石綿瓦不能亂拆，那個要專業的人員才能拆，它一破碎細微纖維就飛出來，那個連人的皮膚都不可以碰觸到，所以拆除一定要全副武裝，防塵衣、護目鏡、N95口罩、手套等等，所以拆除的速度也很慢，相對的，如果破了要拆也很麻煩，一樣也找不到人幫忙，環境部對於目前願意拆除破損的石綿瓦房屋，這個部分有沒有補助？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，內政部國土署有補助一戶是2萬塊，所謂農畜舍也有，一般工廠也有，現在有三個補助。我們環境部是負責清運的，清運也謝謝陳金德政委協調，還有院長也支持，所以目前的經費在臺南、嘉義是沒有問題的。"],["林委員俊憲：所以你現在拆石綿瓦，一般民宅的補助是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：2萬。"],["林委員俊憲：工廠呢？"],["彭部長啓明：工廠20萬。"],["林委員俊憲：所以不分資格，你只要願意拆，就補助2萬的拆除費用。"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["林委員俊憲：接下來就清運的事情，這個在特別預算裡面也有編列，我們希望利用這次把過去環境的災難趕快處理掉。","最後，我也再次肯定院長，因為本席在上次的總質詢，在質詢風災的時候，我也特別有提到電網的韌性，還有電纜的地下化問題，我當時也特別明確指出，希望能夠在台17和台19，因為這2條路的基礎建設比較好，比較不會淹水，所以你可以優先列為電纜地下化的地方，所以這次你也有列進來，這一點我們要肯定……"],["卓院長榮泰：台17和台19兩線的評估，他們會優先來考量，除非它是一個易淹水或是地層下陷或是土質鬆軟的地方，我們會克除一些工程上的困難來籌措財源。"],["林委員俊憲：好，有一點我要特別提醒院長，除了電網、台電的電纜以外，我們這次風災也檢驗到我們的網路訊號、電信，電信現在有三間，包含中華電信、台哥大還有遠傳，這次他們的訊號塔都倒下來，基地臺破損，因為我們對於他們怎麼設立訊號塔，其實沒有標準要求，我認為相關單位NCC在這個部分應該要要求電信業者，台電的設備都有抗風係數，包含電纜、電線、電桿是有一個標準。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，現在高抗災的一些基地臺，好像可以抗15級風……"],["林委員俊憲：抗15級風，還有不斷電72小時。"],["卓院長榮泰：還有發電設備等等。"],["林委員俊憲：它也要列為重要的國安基礎建設，他們這些業者拿到特許執照，我想大家都賺大錢啦，遠傳也好、台哥大也好、中華電信也好，所以應該要負起最基本的社會責任，他們應該要完善他們的基礎設施，不然像這次風災來，才知道他們都亂牽、亂掛，掛在電桿上，所以電桿倒了就沒訊號了，網路也沒了，電話也沒了，這個要列為一個國家標準，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請相關機關嚴格的管制，一定要他們提高標準，而且設置的時候不能隨隨便便的拉電線、拉他們的通訊線。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝院長及兩位部長。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在我們議場二樓旁聽，來自美國國會助理訪問團，Welcome to Legislative Yuan！我們掌聲鼓勵一下。","接下來，請郭國文委員質詢，蘇清泉委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}},{"id":"163624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e7905a040c0e751a0d937691804860db32eff354879b3588d5bd7c0d8a20c67ed6ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:48:25 - 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院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22.293,"end":43.1,"text":"委員長好 辛苦了我查了一下歷年來如果是風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個一個是16年前2009年的莫拉克風災另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三堵的丹納斯紀728豪雨的災後重建特別條例"},{"start":44.318,"end":54.091,"text":"院長您可以看一下我有準備PPT這上頭有許多的照片第一個就是我們回看2009年的莫拉克風災當時"},{"start":56.192,"end":76.587,"text":"我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是關於林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水包括漁溫都沒有了但是我們也看到這一次在丹納斯728豪雨同樣的嘉南地區就是淹大水有很多因為強風的關係民宅屋頂被掀開慘不忍睹"},{"start":81.391,"end":106.758,"text":"那我們再回看當時的山區的災況可以看到也是非常的慘烈但是是隔了一個禮拜之後慢慢慢慢那個畫面才傳出來我們才曉得說原來莫納科造成這麼大的災害於是開啟了這個重建條例那我們現在來看現在這一次的這個風災它所造成的災害其實也差不多"},{"start":107.518,"end":135.574,"text":"那樣的畫面呢重複當年的一個景象山坡竟然部落可以淹大水路斷掉土石流呢進房子我們也可以看到有很多的地方是地基掏空那其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉屏東台東有災害的原鄉我大概都利用我的空檔我陸陸續續都去過那我很難過的就是我親眼看到"},{"start":137.114,"end":145.119,"text":"這樣的一個造成部落的路段這些衛生所的主任他們要背著藥材他們要去"},{"start":146.414,"end":170.505,"text":"我也看到我們這些災民看到我來就會抱著我哭好像看到救星我也看到這一些工程人員我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔他們就忍不住面對我掉下眼淚所以我可以感受得到大家的壓力非常的大但是我要講的是今天主委在這邊"},{"start":171.727,"end":188.161,"text":"其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷16年有太多的災害至今根本無人聞聞就算計畫提報了都被放生所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1200億的規模"},{"start":190.143,"end":204.704,"text":"民間投入260億如果用物價指數去轉換大概現在是1800億那民間的投入大概四五百億我們這一次丹納斯原本是560億我個人的版本是提到600億為什麼"},{"start":206.647,"end":226.585,"text":"因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況絕對不是這樣的錢就可以處理的來的甚至我也關心到有一些村呢他這些年一直重複治災但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村要搬到哪裡要如何安置"},{"start":227.225,"end":251.239,"text":"所以我自己的版本裡面我也希望能夠做法律授權的謙遜但是很可惜就是沒有被處理到可是我要請院長看一下我其實想要提的是這些年的原鄉很可憐我們看一下不論是一般的縣市或者是六都一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助這些鄉公所大概都要到五成六成以上"},{"start":252.159,"end":275.269,"text":"那些六都的園區更恐怖他要仰賴中央甚至高達九成可是我們的才化法修法之後我不斷的呼籲過去是我爸媽不疼我我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽了可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我我們園鄉怎麼辦"},{"start":277.213,"end":291.618,"text":"我們就因為人口少我們沒有可以依賴的長輩所以呢我請院長你感受一下這個照片這個是2009年莫拉科的時候這個是高雄茂林區的萬山部落"},{"start":292.518,"end":316.086,"text":"你看那一大片的大崩塌 他們沒有被遷村每一年我去查了 中央就給他們兩百萬 五百萬做邊坡那一些邊坡的住戶啊 非常非常的惶恐特別是莫拉克之後 所有土石流淺市區動不動災害應變中心一成立 相公所就要大家撤村"},{"start":316.866,"end":345.776,"text":"很多是無法動談癱瘓的老人家他們都說我就寧可死在這裡拜託不要讓我們去撤村不要讓我們安置大家非常的痛苦苦不堪言可是你看我當了立委我幫他們兩期爭取到水利署每一期不到五千萬你看一個不到一億的工程他們的居民非常的高興"},{"start":347.233,"end":368.656,"text":"你再看一下這個是竹尾的原鄉這個山地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉他們本來有自來水系統但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後這16年來他供應的山地村德文村達萊村都要自己去接水源"},{"start":370.131,"end":387.101,"text":"我很感動那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳哲成政委他講了一句話我很感動他說如果我們把武藝投入在台北市連個波浪都看不到但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉就可以掀起美麗的波瀾"},{"start":388.607,"end":415.813,"text":"雖然還沒有完工但是我很感謝我現在要跟院長說的是很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到特別統計條例就這麼樣一直擱著如果是南橫他因為要通到台東他是重要的工程我們可以看到這十幾年來政府投入幾百億重複治災我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做"},{"start":416.892,"end":441.965,"text":"我給我們的院長你看一下這個畫面是在高雄復興禮這是里長他好高興那時候連日豪雨通訊都已經斷了他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我他說委員謝謝你因為我在3月去那個地方衛商他跟議員看到我趕快來跟我澄清說這次的汛期我們第30一定會滅村"},{"start":444.107,"end":468.672,"text":"果然他說拜託給我做那個第二層護岸我趕快找我們的水保署第二層護岸做起來他好高興果不其然跟他的想法一樣這一次花了三個月馬上蓋起來的第二層護岸保護了我們所有的第三齡住戶那我也給院長看一下這個畫面這個畫面地基掏空啊"},{"start":469.81,"end":490.67,"text":"這不是部落的錯所有的部落都有這樣的問題其實我們很清楚知道這些年原鄉不是合法建地我們很難爭取政府的經費根本沒有給我們做排水幾十年來這個都是因為沒有排水設施水就地下浸流亂竄就造成地基掏空原鄉處處可見"},{"start":492.722,"end":512.236,"text":"因為沒有排我們做部落的排水的這樣的一個經費那我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計劃法本來今年的5月1號開始我們可以申請結果呢大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的一個窘境"},{"start":513.547,"end":537.265,"text":"我給院長看一個影片在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落叫做找不到的部落他們的村長那個時候726豪宇很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看這邊在山多爾颱風去年的山多爾颱風的時候這邊的洪水以及土石流流到部落流到部落流到路面而且有低"},{"start":537.904,"end":553.743,"text":"地區比較低的地方都往那個住宅方向所以這次假了那麼多天已經將近要一個禮拜當中都還看不到任何有什麼堵石流有什麼水通到馬路後就這樣乾乾淨淨因為真的是非常感謝"},{"start":554.924,"end":574.138,"text":"吳委員吳立華能夠幫我們改善這個事之後能夠看見這樣的他的用心院長 我是故意放的他應該不用感謝吳委員吳立華他應該感謝政府應該感謝我們的水保單位委員我們跟你說明一下因為你說這個風災的問題我們下午會有個專報裡面我們這次的600億的特別預算當中屬於園民會小館"},{"start":581.323,"end":607.876,"text":"相關的經費有45億但是可能要扣除那些福利啊什麼能夠到建設的可能很少有在編這個部分我就是要訴求這個那我再看一個簡單的圖片這個也是春日鄉的一個村長他是深藍的但是他好開心為什麼這個工程不過才不到100萬他告訴我說委員這邊年年淹水不對啦要在上面做節水"},{"start":608.456,"end":628.243,"text":"一個不到一百萬的工程他說這一次的豪雨連日豪雨他說完全沒有淹水他非常的高興這個是信義鄉信義鄉的一個村長李市長他也是傳照片給我他說這一次的連日豪雨他們部落沒有土石流進來了再看一個圖片這個是春日鄉有一個電塔"},{"start":629.823,"end":647.551,"text":"當時110年我去會刊 112年完工這一次他們也告訴我說好好喔路面乾乾淨淨這一次自栽的獅子鄉院長你知道這個嗎這是一個教會有很多民宅我受理四五年了我找什麼單位都不行 為什麼因為公務單位說"},{"start":650.247,"end":674.725,"text":"這個是私人的黨土牆私人的土地不能用政府的錢做他是水保義務人就直到現在看到這樣的一個災況可能爆災也不過因為說沒有結構物說那個結構物是私人教會的黨土牆好現在我們再看一個這是花蓮的秀林鄉的文藍村你看密密麻麻的陳情書跟我陳情他們說這個問題已經10多年了沒有改善"},{"start":675.606,"end":691.742,"text":"但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌甚至有一個人在那邊說我就在這邊等死算了政府都不管我可是我拜託我們的政府單位不到五千萬的工程你看那個照片做好了他們很開心"},{"start":692.463,"end":720.597,"text":"我要說的是其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢那我們中央也有一個災防的匯報我也看到這些年來20多年來它平均一年開兩次很多2002年的提案呢2014年還在重複的提案所以我還是要回到那句話原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到重建條例所以我請院長是不是可以支持就是您剛剛已經"},{"start":721.638,"end":751.028,"text":"告訴我們我很安心就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形有這種等不到排不到的狀況是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水的一個治水工程還有呢需要簽件的我們重新關心他因為這次的重建條例我這一條並沒有去三讀通過那我希望有一個專案的經費那也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權又有跨部會協調能力的一個"},{"start":751.509,"end":751.931,"text":"災防專責單位來 院長請"},{"start":755.339,"end":781.39,"text":"可不可以我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告我們在重建條例裡面光我們研擬會就編了45.5億多的經費這裡面也有部落的聯絡道橋樑 基礎設施還有水利設施等等剛剛那個畫面你有提到大蛇部落我想你跟我都是大蛇部落的小孩子我有跟自救會在上上禮拜就跟他們直接談"},{"start":782.21,"end":796.57,"text":"因為除了那個聯絡道路你們講是專六線其實現在它還是線的聯絡道那我們跟縣政府一起但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡面的一些排水設施還有它攤下來的那個地方未來這幾戶"},{"start":798.132,"end":821.897,"text":"要怎麼樣來協助他們我們直接跟他們有做溝通我想他們需要什麼我們做得到的其實在這個重建條例一通過之後我們立刻就來做到時候再請委員一起來協助主委還有院長我只是要轉達我們不是個案來看我們有多少的成年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神"},{"start":822.617,"end":847.065,"text":"那莫拉克風災這樣的一個金額都沒有辦法處理完更何況這次丹納斯的600億還包括很多社福的經費等等所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好所以我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況一方面能夠有特別的處理的經費二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位"},{"start":849.259,"end":857.686,"text":"防水 治水的經費我們除了長年性的經費之外我們明年開始有四年一千億的縣市館河川我會請經濟部來"},{"start":860.058,"end":882.734,"text":"評估各地的優先順序是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求那他不整治好影響到下游這個對我們整治工程是一大的妨礙我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新的去檢討規劃院長也提醒您其實我們的三個水保單位以納瑪夏來講"},{"start":884.415,"end":903.434,"text":"其實現在的河川河流的界定定義已經不同於幾十年前該做討論了他們的權責的一個分數像他們分到的幾乎全部五分之四的河段都是水保單位但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊可是相對於桃園"},{"start":904.335,"end":924.753,"text":"他們大部分都是屬於河川署的那河川署有很多做護岸的錢啊所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣所以我覺得這個部分都要全面的重新來檢討我請農業部 經濟部分別來討論那麼因為這次我們在這個前進指揮所 曾經的政委處理得很好我請他也能來督導"},{"start":928.072,"end":929.295,"text":"好 謝謝吳麗華委員持續謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時48分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好，辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，大家辛苦了！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我查了一下，歷年來風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個，一個是16年前，2009年的莫拉克風災，另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三讀的丹娜絲及七二八豪雨的災後重建特別條例。院長，我有準備PPT，您可以看一下，這上頭有許多的照片。第一個，我們回頭看2009年的莫拉克風災，當時我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是，林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水，包括魚塭都沒有了。但是我們也看到這一次丹娜絲及七二八豪雨，嘉南地區也同樣淹大水，有很多民宅因為強風的關係屋頂被掀開，慘不忍睹。我們再回頭看當時山區的災況，可以看到也是非常的慘烈，但是事隔了一個禮拜之後，慢慢畫面才傳了出來，我們才曉得原來莫拉克造成這麼大的災害，於是開啟了重建條例。","我們現在來看這一次風災所造成的災害，其實也差不多，那樣的畫面重複當年的景象，部落山坡竟然可以淹大水、路斷掉、土石流進房子，我們也可以看到很多地方是地基淘空。其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉，屏東、臺東有災害的原鄉，我大概都利用空檔陸陸續續去過，讓我很難過的是，我親眼看到部落的路斷，這些衛生所的主任要背著藥材進去災區；也看到這些災民看到我來就抱著我哭，好像看到救星；也看到這些工程人員，我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔，他們忍不住面對我掉下眼淚，所以我可以感受得到大家壓力非常的大。今天主委在這邊，我要講的是，其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷了16年，有太多的災害至今根本無人聞問，就算計畫提報了，都被放生。所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1,200億的規模，民間投入260億，如果用物價指數去轉換現在大概是1,800億，民間投入大概四、五百億；而這一次丹娜絲原本是編列560億，我個人的版本是提到600億，為什麼？因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況，絕對不是這樣的錢可以處理的。甚至我也關心有一些村這些年來一直重複致災，但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村？要搬到哪裡？要如何安置？所以我自己的版本裡面也希望做法律授權的遷村，但是很可惜沒有被處理到。","但是我要請院長看一下，我其實想要提這些年的原鄉很可憐啊！我們看一下，不論是一般的縣市或者六都，一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助，這些鄉公所大概都要到五成、六成以上，而六都的園區更恐怖，它要仰賴中央甚至高達九成。可是我們的財劃法修法之後，我不斷地呼籲，過去是爸媽不疼我，我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要，可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我，你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽，可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我，我們原鄉怎麼辦？我們就因為人口少，沒有可以倚賴的長輩。所以我請院長感受一下這個照片，這個是2009年莫拉克時高雄茂林區的萬山部落，你看那一大片的大崩塌，他們沒有被遷村，我去查了，每一年中央就給他們兩百萬、五百萬做邊坡，那一些邊坡的住戶非常非常的惶恐，特別是莫拉克之後，動不動災害應變中心一成立，鄉公所就要所有土石流潛勢區撤村，但很多是無法動彈、癱瘓的老人家，他們都說我寧可死在這裡，拜託不要讓我們撤村、不要讓我們安置，大家非常的痛苦，苦不堪言。我當了立委，我幫他們爭取到水利署兩期的經費，每一期不到五千萬，你看一個不到一億的工程，他們的居民非常的高興。","你再看一下這個是主委的原鄉，三地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉，他們本來有自來水系統，但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後，這16年來，它供應的三地村、德文村、達來村都要自己去接水源。那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳澤成政委，他講了一句話我很感動，他說如果我們把5億投入在臺北市，連個波浪都看不到，但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉，就可以掀起美麗的波瀾。雖然還沒有完工，但是我很感謝，我現在要跟院長說的是，很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算、排不到災害預備金，也等不到特別重建條例，就這麼樣一直擱著。如果是南橫，因為它要通到臺東，它是重要的工程，我們可以看到這十幾年來，政府投入幾百億重複治災，我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做？","給院長看一下，這個畫面是在高雄復興里，里長他好高興，那時候連日豪雨，通訊都已經斷了，他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我，他說：委員，謝謝你。我在3月去那個地方慰喪，他跟議員看到我，趕快來跟我陳情說：這次的汛期，我們第三鄰一定會滅村。他拜託要做第二層護岸，我趕快找水保署，把第二層護岸做起來，他好高興，果不其然跟他的想法一樣，這一次花了3個月蓋起來的第二層護岸，保護了所有第三鄰的住戶。","我也給院長看一下這個畫面，這個畫面是地基淘空，這不是部落的錯，所有部落都有這樣的問題，其實我們很清楚知道，這些原鄉不是合法建地，我們很難爭取政府的經費，幾十年來根本沒有給他們做排水，這都是因為沒有排水設施，水在地下逕流亂竄，造成地基淘空，原鄉處處可見，都是因為沒有部落排水的經費。我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計畫法，本來今年5月1號開始可以申請，結果大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年，我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的窘境。","我給院長看一個影片，在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落，叫做「找不到的部落」，他們的村長在七二六豪雨時，很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看。","（播放影片）"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，我是故意放的，他應該不用感謝伍委員伍麗華，他應該感謝政府，應該感謝我們的水保單位。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我跟你說明一下，關於你說的風災問題，我們下午會有專報，我們這次600億的特別預算當中，屬於原民會轄管相關的經費有45億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，但是可能要扣除福利什麼的，能夠到建設的可能很少，沒關係，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：有在編列……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我的訴求就是這個。再來看一個簡單的圖片，這是春日鄉的一個村長，他是深藍的，但是他好開心，為什麼？這個工程不到100萬，他告訴我說：委員，這邊年年淹水不對啦！要在上面做截水。一個不到100萬的工程，他說這一次的連日豪雨完全沒有淹水，他非常的高興。","另一個是信義鄉的村長、理事長也傳照片給我，他說這一次的連日豪雨，他們部落沒有土石流進來了。再看一個圖片，春日鄉有一個電塔，當時110年我去會勘，112年完工，這一次他們也告訴我：好好喔！路面乾乾淨淨。這一次致災的獅子鄉，院長，你知道這個嗎？這是一個教會，有很多民宅，我受理四、五年了，我找什麼單位都不行，為什麼？因為公務單位說這個是私人的擋土牆、私人的土地，不能用政府的錢做，他是水保義務人，直到現在看到這樣的災況，可能報災也不過，因為他們說那個結構物是私人教會的擋土牆。","現在我們再看一個，這是花蓮秀林鄉的文蘭村，你看密密麻麻跟我陳情的陳情書，他們說這個問題已經十多年沒有改善，但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌，甚至有一個人說：我就在這邊等死算了，政府都不管我，可是我拜託我們的政府單位，你看那個照片，不到5,000萬的工程做好了，他們很開心。","其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢，我們中央也有災防會報，我看到這二十多年來平均1年開2次，很多2002年的提案到2014年還在重複地提案，所以我還是要回到那句話，原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算，排不到災害預備金，也等不到重建條例。所以我請院長可不可以支持院長您剛剛告訴我們、讓我很安心的，就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形，有這種等不到、排不到的狀況，是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水治水工程？還有需要遷建的，我們重新關心它，因為這次的重建條例針對我這一條並沒有三讀通過，我希望有專案的經費，也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權、又有跨部會協調能力的災防專責單位。院長請說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我可不可以跟委員報告一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：請補充說明。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，在重建條例裡面，光我們原民會就編了四十五點五億多的經費，這裡面也有部落的連絡道、橋梁、基礎設施，還有水利設施等等。剛剛畫面你有提到大社部落，我想你跟我都是大社部落的小孩子，上上禮拜我有跟自救會直接談，因為除了連絡道路，你們講的是專6線，其實現在它還是縣的連絡道，所以我們跟縣政府一起。但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡的一些排水設施，還有坍下來的那些地方，未來要怎麼樣來協助這幾戶，我們直接跟他們溝通，我想他們需要什麼，然後我們做得到的，在這個重建條例一通過之後，我們立刻就來做，到時候再請委員一起協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委、還有院長，我只是要轉達，我們不是個案來看，有多少陳年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神？莫拉克風災這樣的金額都沒有辦法處理完，更何況這次丹娜絲的600億，還包括很多社福的經費等等，所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好，我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況，一方面能夠有特別的處理經費，二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位？"],["卓院長榮泰：治水的經費除了常年性的經費之外，我們明年開始有4年1,000億的縣市管河川改善計畫，我會請經濟部來評估各地的優先順序，看看是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求，它不整治好，影響到下游，這對整治工程是一大妨礙，我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新地檢討規劃。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，也提醒您，其實我們3個水保單位，以那瑪夏來講，現在界定河川河流的定義已經不同於幾十年前，該做討論了，以他們的權責分屬，他們分到的幾乎五分之四的河段都是水保單位，但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊！可是相對於桃源，他們大部分都是屬於河川分署，河川分署有很多做護岸的錢，所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣，我覺得這個部分都要全面來重新檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請農業部、經濟部分別來討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這次我們在前進指揮所，陳金德政委處理得很好，我請他也能來督導相關工程未來可以改進的地方。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，議場2樓旁聽的是來自張智倫委員邀請的大中華記者友好交流協會，我們掌聲歡迎。","報告院會，114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案之質詢均已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長及相關列席部會首長的列席答詢。","現在作以下決定：一、114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案，交財政委員會會同有關委員審查；二、將各委員會發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復；三、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","報告院會，上午會議進行到此為止，謝謝吳宗憲委員、張智倫委員、羅廷瑋委員一起陪同我們參與今天的專案報告會議。上午會議進行到此，下午2時30分繼續開會，現在休息。","休息（12時4分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}},{"id":"163623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e79023f1b6ab658bf34f7691804860db32eff354879b3588d5bdcdf3a1d6a51b60fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:38:25 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釋懈到不執行"},{"start":162.094,"end":177.344,"text":"都是被動的對行政院來講都是被動的其實呢在這一次行政院這邊提出了追加預算就本席看來基本上根本就是不合法違法我們知道其實提出追加預算最重要的法源依據是什麼"},{"start":179.307,"end":202.932,"text":"预算法第七十几条预算法七十九条跟八十条尤其是追加预算的预算法在七十九条里面讲得很清楚有四个要件而在四个要件里面大概我认为除了我们现在讲的要补贴禁法补偿条例还有军人以及海巡人员的这些"},{"start":204.592,"end":225.524,"text":"加擠這個預算經費是可以符合現在的預算法第79條第3項第4項已有關法律應補列追加預算其餘的部分現在你行政院提出的施政計畫這100多億根本就不符合預算法第79條的規定啊請問是有發生什麼重大事故嗎"},{"start":227.449,"end":251.224,"text":"我們有發生重大事故嗎 我們的經費有超過法定預算的編列嗎三足預算過於龐大 集中特定項目不准留用這就是重大事故 所以請教卓院長我們過去曾有前例 在過往的時候 行政立法兩院曾經用過這一條來解決預算上面的問題所以我想請問 對卓院長您來說 什麼樣子的三減比例才叫做合理的比例"},{"start":251.912,"end":271.26,"text":"我從來不以比例來衡量是一毛都不能刪嗎所以我們這次刪的已經是創下才總共3%啦這比過去的三減預算還要少很多所以我要講的就是說聽我講完我要講的就是說這次你們所提的預算基本上是不符合"},{"start":271.86,"end":284.008,"text":"符合預算法裡面第79條所講的因為重大事故發生重大事故經費超過法定預算好我們在這邊呢很快再舉幾個例子因為其他的委員其實也都講了我就不再重複"},{"start":285.578,"end":302.233,"text":"我要特别讲就是以这个中选会的这个案子来说你明明他过去办理选举罢免共同的经费全部都是透过动用第二预备金而且你们已经也核定了现在又再重新编列追加预算这样合理吗"},{"start":303.483,"end":323.739,"text":"你們是想要透露嗎 我剛剛答覆過了第二位備軍有他更法定需要的用途沒有委員形容這個是救命點那如果追加預算通過的話 我們就歸電第二 你這個追加預算的前提是什麼你要有一個法定預算 你才能追加"},{"start":324.58,"end":346.132,"text":"你中選會之前根本沒有編這筆預算你怎麼追加這就是犯了邏輯的錯誤我們要注意郭院長 我要講就是說您回去好好去讀一下什麼叫追加預算它前提就是要有一個法定預算你有新增業務的號才能夠追加預算所以中選會的這個編列根本也是違法的追加預算編列也是違法的然後話再說回來"},{"start":347.733,"end":364.33,"text":"對於地方性的補助款我們這次你們提出來要追加636億我要再次強調立法院從來沒有刪過地方政府的一般性補助款當時就是依照地方政府的一般性補助款所通過的在"},{"start":365.491,"end":380.282,"text":"總統也都已經公告了所以這個是你們自己行政院你們不自己不把這個636億自己去做機關裡面的內部的這個雲芝而是把這個三姐全部都轉嫁到地方政府去我要講的就是這樣子的做法"},{"start":381.022,"end":397.397,"text":"是非常遏止根本就是違法的當然因為我想在立法院這邊大家還是有很多選區委員大家已經看到地方政府現在受災受難很多的弱勢的民眾是非常非常辛苦的所以"},{"start":398.41,"end":423.642,"text":"即便我再怎麼不認同我認為這個根本就是違法的追加可是如果說未來假設有通過的話我想這個部分要告訴清楚告訴卓院長這並不代表說你們是合法的這是違法的編列我還在強調像違法的編列而如果說這個通過的話我們想講就是說你們現在所作所為你們就是一個國家級的擄人勒鼠你們"},{"start":425.426,"end":451.411,"text":"就是把這個地方政府把這些弱勢民眾當成你們的政治肉票然後用來威脅國會這是非常非常糟糕的一件事情什麼叫做擄人勒鼠我覺得你們現在行政院做的就是這樣的事情好 然後我最後還要再講就是你們就算是認為說有追加預算的必要請主席上 不好意思你們這次追加預算"},{"start":456.806,"end":484.104,"text":"你們這次追加預算的方式有比照中央政府總預算的編列方式嗎有啊 有嗎我要講好 你們有提供三個表格嗎你們有提供中央政府機關稅出二級用途科目分析表嗎你們有提出中央政府機關資本支出分析表嗎你們有提出中央政府各機關資本支出分析總表嗎"},{"start":485.876,"end":500.995,"text":"我們都依照我告訴你我們沒有看到我們立法院預算中心也沒有看到所以你們根本沒有依照預算法第82條裡面追加預算的編造審議及執行程序要准用總預算的規定"},{"start":501.957,"end":516.144,"text":"我不知道主席你是怎麼把關的但是坦白說你們透過你們這樣子的這個編例算的方式真的是非常的簡略粗暴草率因為我們看不出來你們現在這個用的經費是用在什麼地方更何況我剛講了"},{"start":517.265,"end":536.675,"text":"追加預算重要是他要有重大事故發生重大事故你們哪一個項目的內容裡面說你們是發生了什麼重大的事故因為他有天災人禍或是什麼嗎唯一有可能性就是因為你們自己這個覺得說你們不服氣立法院所給你們三個預算不是是因為執行困難"},{"start":538.063,"end":554.594,"text":"是真的過去難道都沒有這個預算被刪減嗎沒有刪減沒有刪減這麼多已經這是過去是已經要翻頁了你們當初提起了復議而且復議也被我們否決了所以這個根本不構成追加預算的理由好到最後我要講就是"},{"start":556.772,"end":584.378,"text":"我很遺憾我看到你們這次所編的預算真的是不僅預算回編不該編的項目譬如說人事費的項目本來不該編你們也編然後呢一些這個雞毛蒜皮一些小錢你們也是編剛剛賴思榜委員已經講得很清楚所以我在這邊要講我會嚴格把關你們的最佳預算不該通過的就不通過好以上謝謝好謝謝翁曉琳委員的質詢謝謝謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":971,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時38分）主席好，在這邊有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：院長好。我在這邊很快講幾個重點，第一個，我們知道其實114年中央政府總預算案可以說是創下歷史新高，114年我們通過了2兆9,250億，比十年前的預算多了1兆，什麼叫1兆的概念？就是1萬個億，臺灣人口如果是2,340萬的話，平均每個人每年交給政府12.7萬的管理費，一家四口大概就是交了差不多50萬的管理費給政府去管理、去治理。","可是你們看看，民進黨政府執政這九年大概是揮霍成性，不知道要量入為出、要勤儉持家，記得童子賢董事長之前還在講，我們明明就可以花一塊多的成本去買核電，你偏偏要用貴了四、五倍的錢去買綠電、去製造綠電，或者是兩、三倍的錢去買天然氣，由此可見，現在賴政府就是不會持家。卓院長，您認為您是個好管家嗎？您會持家嗎？您會量入為出嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們真的量入為出，而且國家的經濟……"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？我們創下了有史以來最高的……"],["卓院長榮泰：國家的經濟成長是相當明顯的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們創下了有史以來通過最高的預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年已經突破26兆的整體GDP。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要講一下，說實在話，您認為您會持家，我還真的覺得你是往臉上貼金，我們知道現在民眾普遍認為賴總統上任這一年多來，臺灣是風不調、雨不順、國不泰、民不安，我們看到卓內閣的政績，似乎只有政治惡鬥、搞大罷免，尤其是823之後，其實民眾期待要重新組閣，卓院長會繼續留任嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有向總統提出應該負起政治責任，總統希望把過去的工作能夠繼續延續，也未來擘畫新的計畫，希望局勢能夠穩定下來。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，總之就是你會被慰留嘛！而本席的看法是，如果您繼續留任，大概也就是老狗變不出什麼新把戲啦！未來跟立法院的互動仍然是窒礙難行，大概就是覆議、釋憲，然後不執行這幾個套路。"],["卓院長榮泰：這都是被動的，這對行政院來講都是被動的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要講的是，其實這一次行政院提出了追加預算，就本席看來，基本上根本就是不合法、違法，我們知道提出追加預算最重要的法源依據是什麼，是依據什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算法第七十幾條。"],["翁委員曉玲：是預算法第七十九條跟第八十條嘛，對不對？尤其追加預算在預算法第七十九條裡面講得很清楚，有四個要件，而這四個要件裡面，我認為除了我們現在講的要補貼禁伐補償，以及軍人、海巡人員加給的預算經費是可以符合預算法第七十九條第四項「依有關法律應補列追加預算者」外，其餘的部分，現在行政院提出的施政計畫，這一百多億根本就不符合預算法第七十九條的規定啊！請問有發生什麼重大事故嗎？我們有發生重大事故嗎？我們的經費有超過法定預算的編列嗎？你們提出的追加預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：刪除預算過於龐大，集中特定項目，不准流用……"],["翁委員曉玲：這個叫做重大事故？所以請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：這就是重大的事故，我們過去曾有前例，在過往的時候，行政、立法兩院曾經用過這一條來解決預算上面的問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想請問，對卓院長來說，什麼樣子的刪減比率才叫做合理的比率？"],["卓院長榮泰：我從來不以比率來衡量。"],["翁委員曉玲：是一毛都不能刪嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，我剛剛說過……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們這次刪的已經是創下……"],["卓院長榮泰：不要用刪減……"],["翁委員曉玲：才總共3%啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：刪減比率……"],["翁委員曉玲：比過去的刪減預算還要少很多。"],["卓院長榮泰：刪減比率不是拿來競爭用的。"],["翁委員曉玲：聽我講完，我要講的是，這次你們所提的預算，基本上是不符合預算法第七十九條所講的，因為發生重大事故，經費超過法定預算。我們在這邊很快地再舉幾個例子，因為其他的委員也都講了，我就不再重複。我要特別講的是，以中選會的這個案子來說，明明過去辦理選舉、罷免、公投的經費全部都是透過動用第二預備金，而且你們已經也核定了，現在又在重新編列追加預算，這樣合理嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我已經答復過了。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們是想要偷渡嗎？你們想要掏空國庫嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛答復過了，第二預備金有其法定更需要的用途，也有委員形容這個是救命錢……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這是法定用途嘛！你們又把這些錢拿來補……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果追加預算通過的話，我們就規定……"],["翁委員曉玲：我還要講的是，這個追加預算的前提是什麼？要有一個法定預算才能追加，中選會之前根本沒有編這筆預算，你怎麼追加？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：這就是犯了邏輯的錯誤。"],["卓院長榮泰：它不曉得有沒有公投案，它怎麼去編？"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，卓院長，您回去好好去讀一下什麼叫追加預算，其前提就是要先有個法定預算，有新增業務才能夠追加預算，所以中選會的追加預算編列也是違法的。"],["卓院長榮泰：它沒有違法。"],["翁委員曉玲：話再說回來，對於地方性的補助款，這次你們提出來要追加636億，我要再次強調，立法院從來沒有刪過地方政府的一般性補助款，當時就是依照地方政府的一般性補助款所通過的，總統也都已經公告了，所以這個是行政院不把636億去做機關裡面的內部勻支，而是把這個刪減全部都轉嫁到地方政府，因此我要講的是，這樣子的作法非常惡質，根本就是違法的。當然我想在立法院這邊，還是有很多選區委員已經看到地方政府現在受災受難，很多弱勢的民眾是非常非常辛苦的，所以即便我再怎麼不認同，我認為這個根本就是違法的追加，可是如果未來有通過的話，我想這個部分也要清楚告訴卓院長，這並不代表你們是合法的，其實這是違法的編列，我還要再強調一次，這是違法的編列，如果這個通過的話，我想要講的就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員支持。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們現在的所作所為，就是國家級的擄人勒贖，你們把地方政府、把這些弱勢民眾當成你們的政治肉票，用來威脅國會，這是非常非常糟糕的一件事情。什麼叫做擄人勒贖？我覺得你們行政院現在做的就是這樣的事情。我最後還要再講的就是，你們就算認為有追加預算的必要……不好意思，請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們這次追加預算的方式，有比照中央政府總預算的編列方式嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，因為這個部分……"],["翁委員曉玲：有嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初被刪減的部分，我們為什麼辦追加？因為它執行有困難。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，你們有提供三個表格嗎？你們有提供「中央政府各機關歲出二級用途別科目分析表」嗎？你們有提出「中央政府各機關資本支出分析表」嗎？你們有提出「中央政府各機關資本支出分析總表」嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們都依照預算法的規定……"],["翁委員曉玲：我告訴你，我們沒有看到，立法院預算中心也沒有看到，所以你們根本沒有依照預算法第八十二條，追加預算的編造、審議及執行程序要準用總預算的規定，我不知道主計長你是怎麼把關的？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們自己也有規範追加預算的表格。"],["翁委員曉玲：坦白說，你們這樣子編列預算的方式，真的是非常簡略、粗暴、草率，因為我們看不出來你們現在這個經費是用在什麼地方，更何況我剛剛講了，追加預算重要的是它要有發生重大事故，你們哪一個項目的內容裡面有說你們是發生了什麼重大的事故？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它有限制……"],["翁委員曉玲：有發生天災、人禍或是什麼嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：它有限制流用，就是執行有困難。"],["翁委員曉玲：唯一的可能性就是，因為你們自己覺得不服氣立法院刪你們的預算。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，是因為執行有困難，是真的。"],["翁委員曉玲：過去難道都沒有預算被刪減嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有刪減這麼多。"],["翁委員曉玲：執行有困難不是問題，這是過去式，已經要翻頁了，你們當初提起了覆議，覆議也被我們否決了，所以這個根本不構成追加預算的理由。"],["陳主計長淑姿：而且是指定刪減。"],["翁委員曉玲：最後我要講的就是，我很遺憾，我看到你們這次所編的預算，不僅預算回編，不該編的項目，譬如人事費的項目，本來不該編，你們也編，然後一些雞毛蒜皮的小錢你們也編了，剛剛賴士葆委員已經講得很清楚了，所以我在這邊要講，我會嚴格把關你們的追加預算，不該通過的就不通過。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請登記最後一位伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}},{"id":"163622","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163622","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e79021a6b234e64f9c4f7691804860db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卓院長以及各位先進那麼有請這個卓院長以及財政部的莊部長麻煩請卓院長財政部備詢"},{"start":31.977,"end":58.897,"text":"兩位長官好最新的一個外媒報導說川普要對全世界國家對美國的高科技公司課數位稅他要用增加關稅來反制我就請教莊部長我們有沒有課數位稅"},{"start":60.491,"end":80.878,"text":"目前為止我們並沒有所謂的課數位他這裡面數位是這樣子你要不要仔細弄清楚他是線上就是說比如說Meta他的線上廣告的服務數位的媒介服務平台服務都有在台灣都有做你們不是要課稅嗎"},{"start":82.138,"end":107.595,"text":"這不是數位稅嗎我們目前對於境外的電商確實有課相關的稅有啊但數位服務稅是沒有課數位服務稅沒有課是境外電商相關稅不有課所以台灣要請院長交代副院長如果川普講這個事情的時候說台灣是沒有課數位稅否則他要報復了好 那個莊部長請回啦"},{"start":111.584,"end":123.44,"text":"我要提到這一次的追加預算追加預算我們看到追加預算其實就是借私還魂"},{"start":124.929,"end":153.917,"text":"把我們原來立法院刪掉的經過刪讀的你一個一個藉這個機會把它要回來所以老實講這個立法院也讓你進來然後也跟你討論其實立法院展現善意的謝謝我希望我們能夠理性討論給個mercy但是你不能夠這個藉機啊就這樣子卡油不好啦那個卓院長來我給你算一個算清楚啦"},{"start":155.509,"end":176.456,"text":"我們來看我們去年總共刪減了2075億扣掉台電1000億只有1075億1075億你要878億如果通融給你就剩下197億所以你送進來3.1兆等於0.63%史上最低的"},{"start":180.478,"end":198.984,"text":"那裡面有幾項新增預算經委員要算進去史上過去10年最低的就是去年1%所以我給1%來做標準的話應該要3.314億"},{"start":201.93,"end":221.009,"text":"310億以現在來講的話我們現在來講的話已經剩下197所以310億減掉197你這一次的878億我們最少要算113億才符合才符合1%那我告訴你院長你先不要急"},{"start":222.27,"end":246.456,"text":"我們因為審理的追加預算特別幫我們時間我們這個朝野協商幫我們排到排到好感我就一天 禮拜四我當召委我要排質詢 還有質詢完畢以後 詢答完畢以後審查一般預算 審查機密預算 又要詢答 又要審查"},{"start":247.506,"end":271.073,"text":"一天我那天可能把他回家刷掉沒有 我跟你講我們這樣用心在處理可是院長 老實講你這個吃立法院夠不夠這不是好的補充模式來 你聽我講因為老實講 我們回過來第二章因為636億我跟你講 我這樣審已經被外面學者罵臭頭"},{"start":277.452,"end":305.239,"text":"被學者罵臭頭被輿論罵臭頭為什麼這樣子他說你們在外黨大贏代表你們砍預算社會是支持的啊為什麼你們完全配合這個民進黨呼嚕呼嚕呼嚕呼嚕開快車都沒好好審查外界質疑外界罵我啊學者罵我啊打電話來罵我啊政大教授打電話來罵我台大教授打電話來罵我你是怎麼啦"},{"start":306.314,"end":333.069,"text":"怎麼會怎麼會你們照理講你們是銀方啊怎麼會完全的因為國家還是要我們合作國家往前走為什麼Police 我不知道為什麼為什麼把時間定的這麼窄我就一天的時間要巡打然後要處理沒有人這麼好沒有人這麼好所以我們只能拜託大家委員我現在就告訴你我現在就告訴你我們就很簡單"},{"start":334.611,"end":349.305,"text":"大科目處理 黨團大科目處理什麼錢該給你 回到第一章什麼 我實在是講過了喔什麼錢可以給你636億可以給你其他我也是不同意的喔因為636是你們刪掉 不應該刪"},{"start":353.018,"end":374.997,"text":"啊 你們刪掉了然後呢 我們現在給你代表你們刪的對那就我們不對啦 代表我們不對啦我們共同來解決問題 謝謝委員代表我們不對啦來 我先跟你講 我們整個來看的話呢就是什麼 就是636億軍人加薪60億 要給金髮補償23.4億 要給公投10億 要給"},{"start":379.764,"end":389.351,"text":"其他剩下145億照理講要全部砍那我還客氣一點外交的部分我請委員再斟酌外交的部分你們也不需要了"},{"start":390.506,"end":418.854,"text":"因為有些 他這裡面有一些場館設備啊確實是需要整建的外交的設備啊 我只有砍兩我只有砍七億多啦我們有委員等一下要私訊他全部砍掉 二十一億全部砍掉我都支持他 他砍得比我更準我就砍七億 他砍二十一億等一下下一位委員就要指引這個請委員再審慎的看看內容對於外交人員以及一些硬體設備現在我就告訴你 我堅持"},{"start":420.424,"end":441.444,"text":"我們不能夠立法院出去以後被人家吐口水說你現在都贏了還要這樣百般的好像奉承立行政院怎麼會這個樣子呢照理講我們這樣可以抬頭行兇我們都贏了怎麼變成一個小綿羊不敢動你這個不敢動你那個我就主張最少3113億"},{"start":443.286,"end":462.582,"text":"這樣才有一趴而已喔 這樣我才一趴而已所以 院長你回去認真去思考 處紀長什麼地方可以刪 113億 113億好不好因為我們當初本來刪了400多億嘛那如果減掉133億這個部分沒有刪 因為我們這次提報"},{"start":466.565,"end":488.039,"text":"恢復的部分就是133億那這133億大部分都是指定刪減譬如說出國經費他指定刪60億那很多單位他是覺得執行有困難那所以這個部分需要恢復的部分所以這是細節的部分但是133億縱使你把他恢復他也是達到3.1%的1%"},{"start":491.261,"end":504.626,"text":"我們立法院有預算中心他就噴起立法院的委員我覺得很丟臉他說你們現在只有30.6億如果你全部給他你們實質"},{"start":506.868,"end":532.586,"text":"現在只有0.61我們過去10年最少3.1%現在只有0.61我們本來是39啦 扣掉133如果沒3那就是1%啦但是其他都是新增加的啦聽說精華補償調息是新增加的部分這133億當中有道路交通的"},{"start":533.506,"end":554.142,"text":"這個建設 還有農業部的防洪智山防洪的消費請他們先不要講話讓我講完可以嗎讓我講完好不好我都仔細看了謝謝讓我講完喔到現在為止878億如果都給你 一毛錢沒刪那就是0.63立法院的預算中心"},{"start":559.37,"end":573.928,"text":"噴起啊 學者噴起啊 媒體噴起啊在野黨失職在野黨贏了 本來贏了怎麼被小民養軟趴趴的我看了好難過 我在野黨的意願而且第二個 時間把我壓縮得這麼緊"},{"start":577.311,"end":601.242,"text":"時間包也要說一天可以處理我是召委還要我自身我知道怎麼處理我可以handle我願意幫忙但是院長不可以吃人夠夠為什麼吃人夠夠我們再看下一張你知道嗎你們追加一項怎麼編的居然有編100萬以下有77個單位編就是我上次跟你講的"},{"start":602.951,"end":630.506,"text":"難怪人家會講啊 就到處你家每個部會都隨便提啊第一個高檢署 法務部的高檢署最佳2.3萬 笑死人了再來勞動基金運用局最佳6.1億民用航空局最佳8億國家圖書館最佳10億再來智慧財產商院的法院最佳10億"},{"start":632.107,"end":659.152,"text":"笑死人啦這個一百萬元以下你們可以追加都沒錢這樣這個就是什麼就是因為你要求他們編我被編了這還要更離譜來來來你再看好 報告委員可以聰明一下不要急主席拜託讓他們先不要講話來還有什麼一萬塊以下的追加多少衛福部增加四千塊啊"},{"start":661.161,"end":687.051,"text":"追加四千塊也在追加經濟部追加四千勞動部增加四千國發會增加六千入委會 你別急入委會增加八千農業部增加一萬你怎麼好意思追加預算五千塊六千塊也在追加然後還看衛福部我們這次審查預算讓你們增加306億"},{"start":689.338,"end":706.486,"text":"讓你增加306億結果你要增加4千塊然後勞動部給你增加57億結果你要增加4千塊結果國發會增加8.76億你要增加6千塊農業部增加63億總預算你增加1萬各位"},{"start":709.906,"end":736.615,"text":"我們這樣子追加拿得出來嗎 卓院長 幹笑啊你這個幾千塊要追加 我都不好意思刪啦這個不只要是指定刪減 而且禁止流用那這個不照常 四千塊 也不要來不是 那但是有一些是屬於主管的一個特別會的不怕經濟就不大 丟臉丟屎啦我們限制他 副機長 丟臉丟屎啦我們只能限制他 丟臉丟屎啦增加百分之十二點五啦對不對 你看 一個衛護部增加四千塊"},{"start":739.729,"end":754.863,"text":"請委員在未來審查的時候詳細的看一下也請各部會能提出說明他們依照現在被刪減之後所造成的困難予以著補回來而已那如果委員認為哪一項不合理"},{"start":755.143,"end":771.742,"text":"我們當然接受 但是請容許 容許各部會 容許不要定這個數字來刪啦 是要用政策來刪除不是 不要用定數字來刪除"},{"start":773.463,"end":799.701,"text":"預算中心一直在罵你訂一個數字那一定要刪到那個程度這樣不好 我說用政策政策的推動來刪除 合理的刪除你當過立委你也知道我們不會去訂一個數字再來刪我們跟老柯就先講好一個總額大概都是1%左右 有時候1.2% 有時候1.1%那這次比較特殊 這次沒有先框起來以前就是老柯跟我們先框起來"},{"start":800.862,"end":822.836,"text":"就不會有那種老哥後來排骨開天亂鬧一通鬧得整個新台會都是亂七八糟的他就是盤過開天開始講起他這一次沒有狂起來但是以前我在這裡這麼久以前每年預算審查我都在他都先框一個總額大家再來談細項"},{"start":824.857,"end":850.195,"text":"總額談都是1%起跳沒有沒有1%的 到現在為止878億給你 就是剩0.63不可能通通給你 那要刪多少 最少113起來1%而已 1%是史上最低的史上最低就1% 如果今天通通878都給你的話那就0.63 那史上最低的最低的最低的最低的"},{"start":850.935,"end":875.221,"text":"這樣子丟臉丟屎了以前都可以自行調整那現在都限定不准流用所以這就是因為它有限制不能流用所以就是你指定三整的項目就會變成有它的調整的一個困難而且還指定項目我的目標就是最少113最好是120到130最好130的話可以到1.1%然後然後客戶讓你自行調整"},{"start":879.562,"end":893.592,"text":"我還是建議委員不要用設定數字我們看他的政策推動的需要與否這樣會比較真實因為你這個追加預算完全就是就像行政院多了多少把它拿回來的你多了31億"},{"start":895.009,"end":913.935,"text":"外交部多了幾億啊 還有媒體多了4億多 剛才委員都提到了那個都是 我約了三年一塊錢 你要五塊錢回來沒有 我們並沒有增加啊都增加了 有啊 行政院增加30億我們只是增加133億 扣掉行政院增加了30億"},{"start":914.835,"end":935.791,"text":"我們還是三減 應該兩百多億行政院主管有包括中選會 有包括園民會所以他們就會變成有一些相關的經費增加我們說行政院主管的範圍相當大行政院增加了最多三十億但是院本部裡面沒有增加這麼多我講的增加是增加跟減掉扣掉的 是淨增加好不好 這個"},{"start":943.629,"end":946.318,"text":"好 謝謝賴世保委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":846,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時22分）謝謝主席、韓院長、卓院長以及各位先進，有請卓院長以及財政部莊部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、財政部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。"],["卓院長榮泰：不敢。"],["賴委員士葆：最新的一個外媒報導說，川普要對全世界國家針對美國高科技公司課數位稅者，他要用增加關稅來反制，請教莊部長，我們有沒有課數位稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前為止，我們並沒有所謂的課數位稅。"],["賴委員士葆：這裡面的數位稅是這樣子喔！你要把它仔細弄清楚喔！就是線上，比如說Meta的線上廣告服務、數位媒介服務、平臺服務等都有，在臺灣都有做啊！這個你們不是要課稅嗎？這不是數位稅嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有課稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們目前對於境外的電商確實有課相關的稅。"],["賴委員士葆：有啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是數位服務稅是沒有課，數位服務稅目前是沒有課。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有數位稅。"],["賴委員士葆：數位服務稅沒有課？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，境外電商相關稅賦有課。"],["賴委員士葆：所以臺灣……要請院長交代副院長，如果川普講這個事情的時候，要說臺灣並沒有課數位稅，否則他又要報復了。好，莊部長請回。","提到這一次的追加預算，我們看到追加預算其實就是借屍還魂啦！把原來立法院刪掉經過三讀的，你一個一個藉這個機會把它要回來，老實講，立法院也讓你進來，然後也跟你討論，其實立法院也展現善意了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，也希望我們能夠理性討論。"],["賴委員士葆：這個我們給個mercy，但是你不能夠藉機就這樣子揩油，不好啦！卓院長，我跟你算個清楚啦！去年總共刪減2,075億，扣掉台電1,000億，只有1,075億；然後你要878億，如果通通給你，就剩197億，除以你送進來的3.1兆，等於是0.63%，史上最低的……"],["卓院長榮泰：裡面有幾項新增預算，請委員要算進去。"],["賴委員士葆：來！來！你先不要講，讓我講完，讓我把意見表達完。史上、過去10年最低的就是去年的1%，如果以1%為標準的話，應該要刪減310億，以現在來講，已經剩下197億，所以310億減掉197億，這一次的878億，我們最少要刪113億，這樣才符合1%。我告訴院長，你先不要急，因為要審你的追加預算，朝野協商把我們的時間排的好趕，就只有一天，禮拜四我當召委，要排質詢，詢答完畢以後，審查一般預算、審查機密預算，又要詢答，又要審查，只有一天，我那天可能要搞到晚上12點……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，再次表示感謝。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，沒有，我跟你講，我們這樣用心在處理，可是老實講，院長，你這是吃立法院夠夠，這不是好的互動模式……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：來！你聽我講，我們回過來看第二張，我跟你講，我這樣審已經被外面學者罵臭頭、被輿論罵臭頭，為什麼？他們說：你們在野黨大贏，代表你們砍預算社會是支持的，為什麼你們要完全配合民進黨，呼嚕呼嚕開快車，都沒有好好審查！外界質疑、外界罵我、學者罵我啊！打電話來罵我，政大教授打電話罵我、臺大教授打電話罵我，質疑我們怎麼啦！照理講，我們是贏方，怎麼會完全please你們……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為還是要大家合作讓國家往前走。"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼完全please你們？我不知道為什麼？為什麼把時間訂得這麼窄，我只有一天的時間，要詢答，然後要處理，沒有人這麼厲害啦！沒有人這麼厲害啦！所以我們只能拜託委員少講點話……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，謝謝委員的辛苦，拜託委員。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就告訴你，很簡單，黨團大科目處理，什麼錢該給你？我上一次講過了，什麼錢可以給你，636億可以給你……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：其他我也是不同意的喔！因為636億是你們刪掉的，不應該刪而刪掉了，然後我們現在給你，代表你們刪的對，那就我們不對啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，沒有對錯，我們共同來解決問題，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：代表我們不對啦！來，我現在跟你講，整個來看就是636億要給，軍人加薪60億要給，禁伐補償23.4億要給，公投11億要給，其他剩下145億，照理講要全部砍，那我還客氣一點……"],["卓院長榮泰：外交的部分，我請委員再斟酌。"],["賴委員士葆：外交的部分你們也不需要啦！外交部分我很客氣……"],["卓院長榮泰：這裡面有一些場館設備，確實是需要整建。"],["賴委員士葆：外交的設備，我只有砍七億多，我們有委員等一下要質詢，他全部砍掉，21億全部砍掉，我都支持他，他砍得比我更準，我只有砍7億，他砍21億，等一下下一位委員就……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員再審慎的看看內容，對於外交人員以及一些硬體設備……"],["賴委員士葆：現在我就告訴你，我堅持我們立法院不能夠出去以後被人家吐口水，說現在都贏了，怎麼還要這樣百般的奉承行政院？怎麼會這樣呢？照理講，我們可以抬頭挺胸，我們都贏了，怎麼會變成一隻小綿羊，不敢動你這個、不敢動你那個，我就主張最少刪113億，這樣才1%而已，所以院長、主計長，你們回去認真思考，什麼地方可以刪？113億，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，讓我說明一下，好不好？因為我們當初本來刪了四百多億，如果減掉133億這一個部分沒有刪……"],["賴委員士葆：113！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們這次提報恢復的部分就是133億，那這133億大部分都是指定刪減，譬如說出國經費指定刪60億，那很多單位覺得執行有困難，所以這個部分需要回復的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：這個細節就不談了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是細節的部分，但是縱使把133億恢復，它也是達到刪減1%。"],["賴委員士葆：來，請你們兩位仔細讀一讀立法院……我們立法院有預算中心，它就抨擊立法院的委員，我覺得很丟臉，它說你們現在只有刪0.61%，如果你全部給它，你們實質只有刪0.61%，我們過去十年最少刪1%！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有、沒有，1%，已經有1%！"],["賴委員士葆：現在只有0.61%。"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要講話，讓我講好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個400……我們本來是39億，扣掉133億如果沒刪，那就是1%啦。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有、沒有！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是其他都是新增加的，譬如說禁伐補償、調薪都是新增加的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：現在只有0.61%！"],["卓院長榮泰：這133億當中有道路交通建設，還有農業部的治山防洪的經費……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要跟我比其他的，請他們先不要講話，讓我講完可以嗎？讓我講完好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：詳細看一下再刪、詳細看一下再刪！"],["賴委員士葆：我都仔細看、我都仔細看了。"],["主席：謝謝，賴委員請繼續。"],["賴委員士葆：讓我講、讓我講完！到現在為止，878億如果都給你、一毛錢沒刪，那就是0.63%，立法院的預算中心抨擊、學者抨擊、媒體抨擊在野黨失職，在野黨本來贏了怎麼變小綿羊軟趴趴的！我看了好難過，我是在野黨的議員。而且第二個，時間把我壓縮得這麼緊，時間把我壓縮的只有一天可以處理，我是召委，還好我資深，我知道要怎麼處理，我可以handle、我願意幫忙，但是院長不可以「吃人夠夠」啦！","為什麼「吃人夠夠」？我們再看下一張，你知道你們追加預算怎麼編的嗎？編100萬以下的居然有77個單位，就是我上次跟你講的，這難怪人家會講啊，就到處……你叫每個部會都隨便提啊。第一個，法務部高檢署追加2.3萬，笑死人囉！再來，勞動基金運用局追加6.1萬、民用航空局追加8萬、國家圖書館追加10萬、智慧財產及商業法院追加10萬，笑死人啦！100萬元以下你們也在追加，都沒錢了，是這樣嗎？這個就是什麼？就是因為你要求他們編，所以都「黑白」編啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是。"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有！"],["賴委員士葆：再來還有更離譜的，來、來、來，你再看！"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我可以說明一下……"],["賴委員士葆：不要急、不要急！主席拜託，讓他們先不要講話。來，還有什麼？1萬塊以下的追加多少？衛福部追加4,000塊啊，追加4,000塊也在追加！經濟部追加4,000、勞動部增加4,000、國發會增加6,000……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：不要急、不要急！陸委會增加8,000、農業部增加1萬，你們怎麼好意思，那個追加預算就這樣5,000塊、6,000塊也在追加。然後還有喔，我們這次審查衛福部預算讓你們增加306億，結果你要追加4,000塊；勞動部給你增加57億，結果你要增加4,000塊；國發會增加8.76億，你要增加6,000塊；農業部增加63億總預算，你增加1萬。各位，這樣子的追加拿得出來嗎？卓院長，丟臉啊！你這個幾千塊也要追加，我都不好意思刪啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，我說明一下，這個部分主要是指定刪減而且禁止流用，那這個部分造成……"],["賴委員士葆：4,000塊也要！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，但是有一些是屬於主管特別費的部分，那金額就不大……"],["賴委員士葆：丟臉丟死了！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們限制它只能……"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，丟臉丟死了！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們限制它只能追加12.5%……"],["賴委員士葆：丟臉丟死了！你看一個衛福部增加4,000塊、經濟部增加4,000塊、勞動部增加4,000塊……"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員未來在審查的時候詳細的看一下，也請各部會能提出說明……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，不用他們說明，就是這樣子啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是他們依照現在被刪減之後所造成的困難，予以酌補回來而已……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果委員認為哪一項不合理，我們當然接受，但是請容許各部會……"],["賴委員士葆：都不合理，我剛剛說過了，要刪113億，這是我的底線，最少113億！否則我們在野黨……"],["卓院長榮泰：你不要定這個數字來刪，是要用政策來刪除。"],["賴委員士葆：外界已經在罵了，學者在罵……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，不要用定數字來刪除……"],["賴委員士葆：預算中心一直在罵……"],["卓院長榮泰：你定一個數字，一定要刪到那個程度，這樣不好，要用政策的推動來刪除、合理的刪除。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼不好？你當過立委，你也知道，過去……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊，我們不會去定一個數字再來刪……"],["賴委員士葆：過去的數字，我們就是跟老柯先講好一個總額，大概都是1%左右，有時候1.2%，有時候1.1%，這一次比較特殊，這一次沒有先框起來，以前都是老柯跟我們先框起來，就不會有老柯後來這樣盤古開天、亂鬧一通，鬧得整個協調會都亂七八糟的，他就是盤古開天開始講起，對不對？他這一次沒有框起來，但是我在這裡這麼久，以前每一年預算審查我都在，他都先框一個總額，大家再談細項，談總額都是1%起跳，沒有不到1%的，到現在為止，878億給你，就是剩0.63%，不可能通通給你，那要刪多少？最少113億，才1%而已，1%是史上最低的，史上最低就1%，如果今天878億通通都給你的話，那就是0.63%，是史上最低、最低、最低、最低的，這樣子丟臉丟死了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，以前都可以自行調整，現在都限定，不准流用，所以這就是……"],["賴委員士葆：現在可以流用，我們可以流用……"],["卓院長榮泰：很多不能……"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為它有限制不能流用，所以你指定刪除的項目就會變成……有它調整的困難，而且還指定項目……"],["賴委員士葆：好，我禮拜四當主席，我的目標就是最少113億，最好是120億到130億，130億的話，可以到1.1%……"],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比較有水啦不會說裡面在淹水結果抽水站在抽水抽不到水因為你要把所有的排水系統都往我們的抽水站下去做建設"},{"start":312.987,"end":334.852,"text":"這就是為什麼內政部現在非常重要就是我們的排水系統 湘寒系統所以我覺得現在國民黨一直講說這個如果再用追加預算把它撥補回來算我們的整個三減預算數是史上最低這什麼理由啊"},{"start":335.592,"end":364.54,"text":"我們編的預算就是必要性只是因為你們有一些思考方向跟我們的執政黨不一樣所以呢你們把它刪除掉但是就是因為我們認為現在非常需要尤其這幾個颱風下來這幾個豪雨下來這已經都沒有辦法用我們現在的狀況去預估現在是極端氣候所以第二預備金他說四個月"},{"start":365.831,"end":392.027,"text":"我覺得四個月如果沒有預備四五十億在那邊等什麼時候要發生問題不知道我們要預備萬一我們上來希望平安無事我們希望平安無事最好有這個比較充裕的時候就可以幫助更多對 我們四五十億最好最後都沒有用到還到國庫這是最好可是我們沒有辦法沒有預備這個如果今天沒有特別預算這請問你要怎麼解決"},{"start":394.108,"end":419.39,"text":"對不對這是因為丹納斯颱風跟豪雨有特別預算說我們編了600億如果沒有這600億你這第二季北京炸的不夠了啦沒有錯而且是缺很大是不是所以我覺得因為有整個趨勢的改變你不能說用現代的狀況然後說請問你四個月你能開五六十億嗎"},{"start":422.591,"end":450.352,"text":"我再次強調這不是一年用比例來算該用多少我們還是很管控的現在是極端氣候現在是極端氣候我再次強調現在是極端氣候任何人都沒有辦法跟天去做比賽我們一定要預備很多的資源隨時做人民最後的一個支持我們當然再次強調我們不希望"},{"start":451.997,"end":476.347,"text":"我們有任何的天災需要去用到這筆錢可是我們必須要準備所以在這個部分我們一直強調的治水為什麼那麼重要院長你有去看到曾文熙你有去看曾文熙的分紅去見證可是我當下也跟院長強調17年"},{"start":479.655,"end":492.625,"text":"從我第一年擔任立委我們一直在做這些整治到分紅你看總經費是87.76億總長是多少12.57公里完成治理的10.37公里含橋樑改建總金額是58.93億"},{"start":503.613,"end":528.3,"text":"再來因為我們多做了12點的疏紅相含就是我們的分紅我們把壓力解除掉所以這裡面多少19億院長你當天站的那個地方就是19億然後呢現在我說的最後一里路就是在去年剛好年底核准的2.2公里的部分總共多少10億"},{"start":531.167,"end":554.903,"text":"所以你知道過去在12點就是您站的位置12點幾乎電視媒體一定都報因為他幾乎都要三天退水時間要三天我都去上便當我都倒了水然後趕快把一些我們的弱勢朋友趕快把他移出來"},{"start":557.195,"end":569.467,"text":"當時我們這段時間都在做這些事情那天里長就說剛好現在在做這些最後一里路的工程所以他們這次沒有淹水"},{"start":571.215,"end":594.182,"text":"所以院長為什麼我一直強調治水預算一定要一次到位而且不只這些喔我必須講的這裡面還有什麼你知道在這段時間我們八八大家都說我們一開去到位我可以一點一滴跟大家說我可以講三天三夜因為大家沒了解過"},{"start":595.646,"end":619.82,"text":"大家所看到的都是現在的狀況可是我們一路來走了那麼久包括當時候八八水災的時候你知道安南區整片淹水北區整片淹水都是我的選區現在沒有了我們做了多少包括抽水站包括湘寒包括大小排水"},{"start":620.973,"end":630.796,"text":"我們走了多久錢就是花在這裡然後大家看到的安中和現在也沒有了這也是湘寒"},{"start":632.284,"end":659.822,"text":"再來 我們所看到的整個安南區就是用抽水站在湘海把它做一個整治因為它是古柏龍啊以前這些都是自然的海綿有溫度 有冷凍 都會滴水現在沒有了現在都蓋房子起來了還有北區也是一樣我小時候就住在陰水的地方啦爸爸你知道嗎 家裡在陰水我們是放著 然後"},{"start":661.143,"end":687.637,"text":"請消防車趕快幫我們載出去因為地方的地緣關係我們最清楚哪邊淹水哪邊需要送便當我們最清楚我們是用橡皮艇然後把便當掛到二樓那是這樣一路走過來的文賢路一帶整個然後包括我們南區還有仁德山野溪都是一樣都是當時候這樣一次而定我們看了多少次"},{"start":688.823,"end":697.453,"text":"可是為什麼都要這樣傷害我們說我們的治水預算花到哪裡去了如果沒有這些治水預算我相信"},{"start":698.817,"end":719.583,"text":"我們沒有辦法讓我們人民更有感因為有可能我們淹水的範圍更大現在我們是一直在縮把淹水範圍縮小包括我們的做制洪池你覺得在中共共產黨一個制洪池就把他們所有的裡內的問題全部解決"},{"start":720.97,"end":737.643,"text":"在地滯洪的觀念必須要推動下去沒錯所以本來就是要用新的概念去解決現在目前新舊部落的一個承接問題這個是沒有辦法的從永康啊 淹水面積說真的 院長"},{"start":738.604,"end":756.097,"text":"我覺得如果要說我們治水預算花到哪裡去的同時請把舊資料翻出來看從88一路來我們88特別條例然後在我們的前瞻然後現在我馬上又要編一個延續性的"},{"start":756.537,"end":769.605,"text":"未來有四年一千億而且針對的是縣市管河川的改善過去都是中央管河川中央做縣市管河川縣市做我們補助這是我們是全部把縣市管河川我們希望解決"},{"start":770.882,"end":786.093,"text":"源頭或是末端的這些問題以後委員不要那麼辛苦幫助那麼多辛苦的國人院長你這個真的太重要你知道嗎為什麼曾文希排水會17年因為他中央管排特別預算只能補助縣市管排"},{"start":786.593,"end":815.175,"text":"就是這樣子中央縣市分道陽標變成沒有辦法整合如果我們未來這一千億四年一千億你知道我們可以有多少可以一次到位來解決地方的治水問題明年我們編了一百四十七億雖然在中央財政目前因為新財化法非常拮据情況底下我們還是跟委員說的一樣該做的優先做必須要做的中央還是把治水列為很重要的優先工作"},{"start":815.711,"end":839.25,"text":"院長 從小就住在一個會淹水的地方從小 你可不可以知道我們的第一件事就是爸爸媽媽叫你走起來我跟姑姑 因為喝醉了 他們要給我墊高然後一路來從議員到立委我們所看到的就是怎麼把我們的淹水面積把它縮小"},{"start":840.191,"end":860.917,"text":"我們第一時間到縣長會館我們知道會被罵可是我們可以了解問題出在哪裡這才是最重要的所以治水預算真的很重要我們要拜託不能再有任何刪減的問題所以這個我們會全力支持請委員跟大院委員共同來支持這些必要的預算"},{"start":861.317,"end":889.98,"text":"然後院長從這一次其實風災的部分我想有幾個我們要成為任性城市任性國家我們的電纜地下化要拜託這個一定要做這個不能不做因為電纜地下化你看倒了光台南2000多支的電感這個部分不做不行還有我們地下管線供購的問題因為我們目前很多的地下管線的圖資並沒有建立起來"},{"start":891.221,"end":912.783,"text":"所以如何建立我們的圖資這很重要還有我們的通訊防災在我們通訊防災的SOP就是在災前的預防我們如何備齊所有的我們的行動基地台然後在如果發生災情的時候我們要怎麼第一線到地方"},{"start":913.624,"end":923.592,"text":"我們的地圖 我們所有的配置該怎麼做這些一定要做這才能成為任性城市 任性國家這個要拜託院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時6分）謝謝院長。請卓院長備詢，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，我覺得追加預算的內容，大家可以討論，如果用一竿子打翻一船人說：根本不需要追加預算，你們提出來是浪費公帑！這個部分我無法接受。這878.4億如果用各部會的數額，就說怎麼會編這麼多，請問有沒有看到裡面的細項？這裡面的細項都是媒體一直在質疑行政院、在質疑執政黨的，我們現在把它回編回來，用追加預算有什麼不對？大家都認為原住民保留地禁伐補償很需要，都用這個來質疑我們。既然很需要，我們用追加預算把它編進來，有何錯誤？","再來是提升國軍待遇，他們常常都說我們不重視國軍，可是我們為穩固國防戰力，給志願役勤務加給、戰鬥部隊加給、資訊勤務加給、電訊偵測官兵勤務加給，還有戰航官兵勤務加給，從加給的部分來提升國軍待遇，甚至協助國防部、海委會等等，請問這有什麼不對？這有必要嗎？有必要啊！因為沒有編進去的時候，他一直用這個打我們，說我們不重視國軍，所以我們要不要追加預算？當然要追加預算！把我們砍掉了，然後說我們不重視，這好不好笑？很好笑！然後我們的外交執行量能重不重要？沒有錢怎麼做外交？沒有執行量能，怎麼做外交？而且現在國際情勢變化這麼大，我們要不要做外交？要啊！我們對外要讓人家看到臺灣的光、看到臺灣的量能，所以外交的執行量能很重要，我們編這一筆預算要11億。再來，最重要的就是每個縣市都在罵你，說行政院怎麼可以刪一般補助？奇怪了，一方面要罵，現在要追加預算、把它撥補回來，他們也在罵，到底是怎麼一回事？所以一般補助要不要編？要編啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我在行政院院會都有請列席的地方首長支持，也請該縣市的委員能夠支持，我們一起把這個事情解決，我也非常感謝。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！把這個問題解決嘛！一開始每個縣市的縣市首長都開記者會罵行政院說：這個不能刪！好啊，不能刪，符合大家的意思，全部把它用追加預算追回來，這有什麼不對？再來，就是行政院本身要協助各地方的部分，這個部分重不重要？很重要啊！這部分如果沒有編的話……請問這裡面有多少與治水有關？就是他們講的，從內政部、農業部、經濟部等等，首先是內政部的部分，包含內政部下水道管理、污水下水道，還有相關的治水建設，現在我們抽水站都做了，但是院長，我們的抽水站基本上都是後來才增設的，也就是我們認為，現在要韌性治水，必須要有抽水站來做強硬的抽水，就是從內水抽到外水，但是這些抽水站都是現在找尋適合位置後所設置出來的，我們現在必須靠著這些排水箱涵，慢慢的把水排到的抽水站，這樣它比較抽得到水，不會裡面在淹水，結果抽水站抽不到水，因為你要把所有的排水系統都往抽水站下去做建設，這就是為什麼內政部現在非常重視我們的排水系統、箱涵系統，現在國民黨一直講說，這個如果再用追加預算把它撥補回來，算我們整個刪減預算數，就是史上最低，這什麼理由啊？我們編的預算就是出於必要性，只是因為你們有一些思考方向跟我們執政黨不一樣，所以你們把它刪除掉，但就是因為我們認為現在非常需要，尤其這幾個颱風下來、這幾個豪雨下來，都已經沒有辦法用現在的狀況去預估，現在是極端氣候，所以第二預備金他說4個月，我覺得4個月如果沒有預備四、五十億在那邊等，什麼時候要發生問題不知道……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要以備萬一，我們當然希望平安無事……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，我們希望平安無事最好啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們有這個比較充裕的時候，就可以幫助更多。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，這四、五十億我們最好最後都沒有用到，就是還到國庫，這樣最好，可是我們沒有辦法不預備這個，如果今天沒有特別預算，它可能一下子就花完了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：這是因為丹娜絲颱風跟豪雨有特別預算，所以我們編了600億，如果沒有這600億，你這第二預備金早就不夠了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：而且還缺很大，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是因為整個趨勢的改變，你不能用現在的狀況然後就說：請問你4個月可以花五、六十億嗎？我要再次強調……"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是一年用比例來算應該用多少，我們還是管控得很嚴謹。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，現在是極端氣候、現在是極端氣候，我再次強調，現在是極端氣候，任何人都沒有辦法跟天去比賽，我們一定要預備很多的資源，隨時做人民最後的支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們當然要再次強調，我們不希望有任何天災需要去用到這一筆錢，可是我們必須要準備，所以在這個部分我們一直強調，治水為什麼那麼重要？院長，你有特別下去看、去見證曾文溪的分洪，可是我當下也跟院長強調，17年了，從我第一年擔任立委，我們一直在做這些整治到分洪，你看總經費是87.76億，總長是12.57公里，已完成治理的有10.37公里（含橋梁改建），總金額是58.93億。","再來，因為我們多做了十二佃的疏洪箱涵，就是我們的分洪，我們把壓力解除掉，所以這裡面多少？19億，院長你當天站的那個地方就是19億，然後現在我說的最後一哩路就是在去年年底剛好核准的2.2公里的部分，總共多少？10億。所以你知道過去在十二佃，就是您站的位置，十二佃幾乎電視媒體一定都報，因為它幾乎退水時間都要3天，我們都去送便當，我們都一起涉水，然後趕快把一些弱勢朋友移出來，當時我們都在做這些事情；包括現在公親寮，那一天里長就說剛好現在在做這些最後一哩路的工程，所以他們這次沒有淹水。","院長，為什麼我一直強調治水預算一定要一次到位，而且不只這些，我必須講，這裡面還有什麼？你知道在這一段時間，我們八八……大家都說我們錢花到哪裡，我可以一點一滴跟大家說，我可以講三天三夜，因為大家沒有涉過水，大家所看到的都是現在的狀況。可是我們一路來走了那麼久，包括當時候八八水災的時候，你知道安南區整片淹水、北區整片淹水，都是我的選區，可是現在沒有了，我們做了多少，包括抽水站、包括箱涵、包括大小排水，我們走了多久，錢就是花在這裡，然後大家看到的安中河，現在也沒有了，這也是箱涵；再來我們所看到的整個安南區就是用抽水站在箱涵把它做一個整治，因為它是舊部落，以前這些都是自然的海綿，有塭仔、有農田，都可以裝水，現在沒有了，現在都蓋房子了；還有北區也是一樣，我小時候就住在會淹水的地方，八八你知道嗎？家裡在淹水，我們是放著，然後請消防車趕快幫我們載出去，因為地方的地緣關係我們最清楚，哪邊淹水、哪邊需要送便當，我們最清楚，我們是用橡皮艇，然後把便當掛到2樓耶！那是這樣一路走過來的；文賢路一帶，然後包括南區還有仁德、三爺溪都是一樣，當時候都是這樣看，我們看了多少次，可是為什麼都要這樣傷害我們說我們的治水預算花到哪裡去了？如果沒有這些治水預算，我相信我們沒有辦法讓人民更有感，因為有可能淹水的範圍更大，現在我們是一直在縮，把淹水範圍縮小，包括我們做滯洪池，你知道在將軍廣山里一個滯洪池就把他們所有里內的問題全部解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，在地滯洪的觀念必須要推動下去。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯，所以本來就是要用新的概念去解決現在新舊部落的承接問題，這個是沒有辦法的，從永康淹水面積……說真的，院長，我覺得如果要說我們治水預算花到哪裡去的同時，請把舊資料翻出來看，從八八一路來，我們八八特別條例，然後再我們的前瞻，然後現在我們馬上又要編一個延續性的，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來有4年1,000億，而且針對的是縣市管河川的改善……"],["陳委員亭妃：拜託。"],["卓院長榮泰：過去都是中央管河川中央做，縣市管河川縣市做，我們補助，這次我們是全部把縣市管河川……我們希望解決源頭或是末端的這些問題，以後委員不要那麼辛苦，幫助那麼多辛苦的國人。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，這個真的太重要，你知道嗎？為什麼曾文溪排水會拖了17年，因為它中央管排，特別預算只能補助縣市管排，就是這樣子，中央、縣市分道揚鑣，變成沒有辦法整合，如果未來這4年1,000億，你知道我們有多少可以一次到位來解決地方的治水問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：明年我們編了147億，雖然目前在中央財政因為新財劃法非常拮掘的情況底下，我們還是跟委員說的一樣，該做的優先做；必須要做的，中央還是把治水列為很重要的優先工作。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，我從小就住在一個會淹水的地方，你知不知道我們從小第一件事就是爸爸媽媽叫你趕快起來搬家俱，因為淹水了，要趕快墊高。然後一路以來，從議員到立委，我們所看到的，就是怎麼把我們的淹水面積縮小，我們第一時間到現場會勘，我們知道會被罵，可是我們可以了解問題出在哪裡，這才是最重要的。治水預算真的很重要，我們真的要拜託，不能再有任何刪減的問題，所以這個我們會全力支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員跟大院委員共同來支持這些必要的預算。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後，院長，其實從這一次風災，我們要成為韌性城市、韌性國家有幾個部分，其中電纜地下化拜託一定要做，這個不能不做，因為你看光臺南倒了兩千多支的電桿，這個部分不做不行。還有地下管線共構的問題，因為目前很多地下管線的圖資並沒有建立起來，所以如何建立圖資很重要。還有通訊防災，在通訊防災的SOP，就是災前的預防，我們如何備齊所有的行動基地臺，然後如果發生災情的時候要怎麼第一線到地方？我們的地圖、所有配置該怎麼做？這些一定要做，才能成為韌性城市、韌性國家，這個要拜託院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請業者要加強抗災性的基地臺，保障通訊的品質。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，在議場2樓旁聽的是來自各大專院校參加2025年模擬立法院所有營隊的同學們，我們掌聲歡迎各位同學。","接下來請賴士葆委員質詢，翁曉玲委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}},{"id":"163620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e7908fbeb99faaef8eec7691804860db32ef3b91b104adcbf93c77988f7de2833a605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:50:07 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在提出賦益之後韓院長的目的是希望不要走這樣的程序我們可以透過追加預算來解決這個紛擾結果您還是提出了賦益然後在5月16號針對我們的一般性的補助款幫地方刪減了636億"},{"start":98.189,"end":107.001,"text":"所以這根本不是剛剛這民進黨委員在那邊胡說八道講的是因應韓院長的要求所以用這樣的方式來去混淆事情我覺得非常非常的不公平院長是請您不要提出復議"},{"start":114.031,"end":130.203,"text":"可以用追加的方式嘛所以說我覺得民進黨委員不要在那邊造謠在胡說八道我覺得這個真的非常不可取喔那當然我們今天主要是針對這個總預算的追加案那我們也知道說今年度本來編列的這個總預算本來就是史上最高"},{"start":130.723,"end":152.029,"text":"那即使是最後公佈的也有兩兆九千兩百五十億那加上今天行政院又要追加的八百七十八億追加的部分我們可以看一下有三大部分前兩項部分是法定的義務支出那結果你們把其他單位被刪除回編的部分也列進來總共有一百九十七億"},{"start":153.129,"end":170.02,"text":"那我們可以看到這兩個單位是屬於法定義務支出然後其他的被刪減回補的這種混合編列的方式根本就是在拿政府、人民拿地方的政府還有人民還有原住民"},{"start":170.76,"end":184.669,"text":"當作肉票就是說我們要解決中央地方共同的困難我們一起解決困難這個問題不是發生在中央就是發生在地方我們請中央跟地方一起共體實踐"},{"start":186.21,"end":209.715,"text":"院長那這197億元你覺不覺得根本就是在把人民當作提款器也是覺得立法把人民當作提款器啊197億就是你單位被刪減回編的部分啊因為你把他跟一般性補助款跟原住民的進保補償條例混在一起送進來這個總預算的追加案那不就是把人民把這個原住民還有地方政府當作漏票我們有圖像分開編列啊"},{"start":210.695,"end":226.16,"text":"你現在不就是這樣編列嗎就是197億是單位被刪減回編我幫你統計好了有竹象在裡面編列我知道但我幫你統計好了數目就是這樣子那另外呢我們可以看到在這個我們先來看看這個"},{"start":228.444,"end":236.366,"text":"最佳預算這個編列的有多離譜你可以看一下我們幫您這個統計出來的表在112年呢3減300億那3減數是1.1%決算結餘有607億113年呢3減數是299億3減率是1.04%那決算是672億好我們在114年度如果"},{"start":252.569,"end":270.517,"text":"不含台電補助的1000億的話大概是3.55%如果你今天通過的追加預算878億通過之後刪減率來到多少只剩0.65%只剩0.65%是史上最低即便是你們在"},{"start":272.88,"end":287.312,"text":"過去八年執政國會最大黨的時代都還這個三減數都有1.1、1.04現在是0.65三減率不是拿來做競爭比較型的跟哪一年比較這不是競爭比較這只是告訴你這不是在競爭比較這只是告訴你目前的這個狀況0.65%是史上最低那當然你們現在迴邊了"},{"start":300.024,"end":316.825,"text":"這麼多的這個高額的追加預算我們可以看得出來雖然說立法院一開始刪減了1075億幫人民這個省下不少的血汗錢但是你現在又回編了878億所以說回編這麼高的一個追加預算心態非常可預"},{"start":317.626,"end":346.806,"text":"我們就在玩弄這個政府的一個預算喔那我們先來看我們先從你行政院本身的預算來看好我們有分為幾個部分喔那回編率是48.83%那我們先從一般行政來看喔我們當時會刪減是因為行政院的職場霸凌還有部分的政務委員的任命有問題以及行政院聯合服務中心的正副執行長被拿來做政治酬庸因此刪減相關的預算現在回編"},{"start":347.466,"end":349.787,"text":"2925萬"},{"start":350.185,"end":373.37,"text":"高達55.7%所以是不是又要來酬傭特定人呢再來聯合服務中心的經費之所以三減是因為他所併用的助理很多都是一些酬傭性質所以我們認為不該把我們的這個中部的服務中心或全台的服務中心當作一個安插這個政治酬傭的一個地方現在追加預算要回編3652萬高達96.4%"},{"start":378.831,"end":402.291,"text":"當時我們有請行政院要提出具體的檢討方案請問現在有出來了嗎所以過去半年行政院的聯合副中心的人員到處在配合這個宣講大罷免造謠立法院亂刪預算現在卻要追加96.4%的這樣子的一個預算請問合理嗎你們有提出這個我們的具體檢討的方案出來嗎"},{"start":403.206,"end":417.997,"text":"行政院各地的服務中心的人員有哪一位去配合大罷免請委員指出來 我們來處理好 會後我一定會提供給你 絕對有如果沒有的話請委員支持絕對有 請絕對有這個絕對不會空口說白話會後我一定會告訴你"},{"start":419.498,"end":440.473,"text":"那當然行政院的執行長你們任用的這個服務中心的執行長副執行長其實看都是說實在都是酬庸的一個性質那我們也有很多的例子現在因為時間的關係我會後一定會整理給院長如果是的話您是不是就要把這個預算給他吞回去就刪減讓他刪減了根本不該用這樣的方式剛剛你說嘛"},{"start":441.994,"end":460.937,"text":"如果說沒有的話那你請我支持如果有的話你要不要把這些人都砍掉我們把各部會現在遇到的困難既然要這樣講的話那我院長我們就來做這樣一個協議就是如果是這樣的話那我同意這筆預算回復如果不是的話我請你把這筆預算刪減"},{"start":462.158,"end":489.113,"text":"我再來看一下各部會的追加狀況就內政部追加率有95.4%外交部的追加率有151.3%環境部的追加率有59.1%當然行政院跟轄下的17個單位追加率是327.5那海委會也追加了139許多部會都追加超過50%那當然追加率這麼高所以"},{"start":489.98,"end":512.309,"text":"有符合我們的財政紀律嗎那立法院還要審預算嗎我們審的我們覺得浮邊爛邊的刪除凍結之後你沒有把它追加回來這樣還有這個財政預算嗎我們還需要審預算嗎上個會期我們還要審115年的預算嗎我們是以原預算收支剩餘來編這一次的追加預算所以沒有舉債所以這個不牽涉任何財政紀律"},{"start":513.089,"end":542.341,"text":"我們還是嚴守財政紀律其實你們已經嚴重的違反了這個預算法第79條我們預算法第79條的預算的這個編列的規定是應該要這其中這幾項那目前看起來呢並沒有這些狀況因為好比如第三項因應重大事故的關係可是這一次不管是關稅的不管是風災的不管是其他這個國防的我們其實都已經編列了特別預算來去做所以為什麼還要追加這些預算我覺得"},{"start":543.161,"end":562.468,"text":"這樣子其實拿納稅人的錢在這邊開玩笑我覺得真的不是我們行政院該做的事情喔那還有來我們看一下媒體宣傳費提出了4億2906萬的追加預算迴遍率達55.84%這也非常的不合理院長你知道在政論節目都在怎麼罵在野黨嗎怎麼護航執政黨嗎"},{"start":565.231,"end":593.321,"text":"院長你知道嗎我們是在編制在行政院內部的沒宣費用院長你來看電視節目的你是不是知道政論節目怎麼在罵在野黨你有看過嗎你今天晚上可以去看一下政論節目喔你沒關係你怎麼轉怎麼哪一台都一樣我從51台到57台都有看都在罵在野黨有啦51台到57台都有看所以院長你知不知道這次賴清德主席所聘任的就是民視的主持人擔任他的秘書長"},{"start":594.588,"end":612.442,"text":"那過去這一年多來他就是在這政論節目不斷的罵在野黨 詆毀在野黨而且民視在每年大概都可以拿到四億左右的宣傳費所以院長你說看看這樣子的一個我們的沒宣費用要怎麼能夠追加回來呢"},{"start":612.922,"end":637.95,"text":"所以將回來就是在漫再野黨而不是真正為你們宣傳該有的這個政策你知道嗎那天在一個政論節目主持人有問三位名嘴說你們知不知道過去這一年來這個由民進黨執政的這個執政團隊有什麼政策你們想得起來的他們回答什麼有啊就是自愛難行然後咧 富裕然後視線"},{"start":639.551,"end":665.658,"text":"他們就回答這樣的問題這也是一般民眾的想法但是光是這三件真的讓我們自在難行這是大家最常聽到院長講的一句話那為什麼會自在難行呢你有沒有想過這樣的原因呢不能把這些帽子都扣到我們立法院身上為什麼會自在難行其實你很清楚行政院要負最大的責任賴總統要負最大的責任我們再來看一下中選會的追加預算"},{"start":668.459,"end":683.228,"text":"因為本席在內政委員會所以我在5月12號的時候我曾經詢問過中選會的主委李敬勇我說針對今年的我們的這個相關的罷免經費跟公投的經費你有沒有編列預算來我們請"},{"start":684.769,"end":703.624,"text":"罷免案你沒有辦法變入這個年度的預算所以我請教你罷免案的經費都是申請行政院動資第二預備金罷免案會用行政院的第二預備金是嗎也就是我們俗稱的救命錢是嗎我們會向行政院申請動用第二預備金"},{"start":705.151,"end":733.201,"text":"李金榮本人 諸位本人也在現場當時我在5月的時候請教您5月12號請教您質詢您的時候你說會動用二倍金那現在呢我們也看到針對這個第11屆立法院的罷免案跟全國性的公民投票已經在7月間已經兩度向行政院申請動之第二預備金總共有15億左右那院長也已經核准了我們可以看一下"},{"start":734.381,"end":748.173,"text":"那所以呢都已經動用第二餘倍金了為什麼在這個時候還要追加預算請問院長為什麼要重複的編列因為向來的罷免動用二倍金沒有錯因為是單一事件那次是由公民團體發送的罷免"},{"start":750.54,"end":768.665,"text":"案件相當的大 完全用第二預備金的話 您也說那是救命錢如果這個追加預算通過 我們就可以歸電給第二預備金第二預備金在有需要的時候 我們就用到更需要的用途月長 您知不知道您今年度的第二預備金還有剩多少今年編列80億 現在還有剩多少30餘億現在已經幾月了"},{"start":772.712,"end":780.156,"text":"現在已經快要九月了 過去這八個月來你們用的錢還剩下未來四個月還有剩下三十多億那我剛也已經提了嘛不管是風災不管是這個我們都提出的特別條例那也不會再用到這方面的錢剩下四個月你還有三十多億可以用那為什麼 而且是扣掉這十五億喔這個十五億假設你再回過來"},{"start":797.384,"end":802.367,"text":"是變成了四五十億耶那未來的四個月你還有用到這個有可能用到這樣子這麼多的錢嗎"},{"start":806.653,"end":827.044,"text":"我知道啊我的意思是說都已經動用二倍金了你這時候又再追加回來而實際上最後用到了這些這還有三十幾億加上那十五億可能有將近五十億我們先電資出去了啊二倍金先動了大概還有將近五十億喔如果再把這個十五億還回來那你最後這四個月你有這麼多的二倍金"},{"start":828.485,"end":854.905,"text":"二倍金委員說的很好 就是救命錢如果不需要用到 我們不會把它浪費掉為什麼在這個時候要追加這樣的預算因為以過去九個月來 事實上你們花掉的其實都絕對大概只有二三十億而已你還有三十幾億的經費所以說我們也覺得很奇怪這段時間你們是好像下鄉去做一些這個什麼委員可以問問主席長 我是控管得很嚴喔"},{"start":855.585,"end":882.236,"text":"還要下去這種財神爺嗎還有四個月的時間所以我覺得啦就是說追加預算不可以用這樣一個重複編列的方式那如果有需要當然隨時我們都可以追加預算我跟委員說明一下我們這次申請動用預備金因為之前沒有辦法預料有這麼多的案子而且這次動用第二預備金達到15億這是史上從來沒有過的當然會去抬級到這個第二預備金的這個用途"},{"start":883.516,"end":889.324,"text":"那因為時間的關係我只有最後一個問題要請教我要請教這個院長那可以暫停嗎 主席因為我其實還有一個問題要請教院長"},{"start":896.599,"end":906.545,"text":"還有一個問題就是針對內政部追加的預算我們可以看到有一個叫做網路科技運用經濟計劃這個原計劃數是原列是44億9600萬我們這個通案刪減了4億多所以決算竟然改成40億9545萬可是你們這一次的追加預算有2881億迴編率高達95.4%"},{"start":924.136,"end":941.38,"text":"那根據本席查過之後該計畫在1月到7月尚無執行數所以預算都還沒有執行為什麼要追加4億多報告委員我來回應一下因為網路流量科那個部分的話一定要等到全額到位的時候才對喔你們在7月8號已經針對網路科技運用計畫的技術顧問採購案"},{"start":971.66,"end":971.68,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":697,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時50分）謝謝主席，我們請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：許委員好！"],["許委員宇甄：卓院長好！卓院長，剛剛我有聽到民進黨的立法委員在說，這次的追加預算是因應韓院長所提出的要求而提出的。我記得在上個禮拜我質詢您的時候，我就有提到了，在今年2月10日總統邀集五院院長一起去會商國政的時候，韓院長當時提出用追加預算的方式是請您不要提出覆議。院長，結果您有沒有提出覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們……"],["許委員宇甄：有，你在2月27日提出了覆議……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們必須要讓它憲政的原貌呈現出來。"],["許委員宇甄：韓院長的目的是希望不要走這樣的程序，我們可以透過追加預算來解決這個紛擾，結果您還是提出了覆議，然後在5月16日針對一般性補助款，幫地方刪減了636億，所以這根本不是剛剛民進黨委員在那邊胡說八道講的，是因應韓院長的要求……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我剛剛有說，謝謝韓院長的善意……"],["許委員宇甄：所以用這樣的方式去混淆視聽……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是不是任何一個人的責任……"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得非常非常的不公平！"],["卓院長榮泰：不能把責任說是院長的責任，我們謝謝……"],["許委員宇甄：院長是請您不要提出覆議，可以用追加的方式，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我剛剛有說了，我說謝謝韓院長的善意。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我覺得民進黨委員不要在那邊造謠、胡說八道！我覺得這個真的非常不可取！","當然我們今天主要是針對總預算的追加案，我們也知道，今年度編列的總預算本來就是史上最高，即使是最後公布的，也有2兆9,250億，加上今天行政院又要追加878億。追加的部分，我們可以看一下，有三大部分，前兩項的部分是法定義務支出，結果你們把其他單位被刪除回編的部分也列進來，總共有197億。我們可以看到，這兩個部分是屬於法定義務支出，還有其他被刪減回補的，這種混合編列的方式根本就是在拿地方政府，還有人民，還有原住民，當作肉票……"],["卓院長榮泰：並非這樣，我們要解決中央、地方共同的困難……"],["許委員宇甄：也就是我們如果不答應的話，前面是不是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起解決困難。"],["許委員宇甄：你們一般性補助款要不要追加？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為最後這個問題不是發生在中央，就是發生在地方……"],["許委員宇甄：然後原民的部分要不要增加？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請中央跟地方一起共體時艱。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，這197億元，你覺不覺得根本就是在把人民當作提款機，也是覺得立法院……"],["卓院長榮泰：哪裡的197億？"],["許委員宇甄：197億就是你單位被刪減回編的部分，因為你把它跟一般性補助款、原住民的禁伐補償混在一起，編列成總預算的追加案送進來，那不就是把人民、原住民還有地方政府當作肉票？"],["卓院長榮泰：可是我們有逐項分開編列啊！"],["許委員宇甄：你現在不就是這樣編列嗎？就是197億……"],["卓院長榮泰：有逐項啊！"],["許委員宇甄：是單位被刪減回編，我幫你統計好了，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：有逐項分開在裡面編列，在預算數裡面都逐項編列。"],["許委員宇甄：我知道，但我幫你統計好了，數目就是這樣子。","另外，我們先來看看這個追加預算編列得有多離譜！你可以看一下我們幫你統計出來的表。在112年刪減300億，刪減率是1.1%，決算（結餘）有607億，113年刪減數是299億，刪減率是1.04%，決算是672億。在114年度如果不含補助台電的這個1,000億的話，刪減率大概是3.55%，如果今天通過這個追加預算878億，通過之後，刪減率來到多少？只剩0.65%，只剩0.65%，是史上最低！即便是你們在過去八年執政、國會最大黨的時代，刪減數都還有1.1%、1.04%，現在是0.65%喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我覺得刪減率不是拿來做競爭比較的，要跟哪一年比較……"],["許委員宇甄：這不是競爭比較……"],["卓院長榮泰：好像刪減得越多成績越好，不是。"],["許委員宇甄：這不是在競爭比較，這只是告訴你……"],["卓院長榮泰：是預算呈現出來的政策目標有沒有清楚、有沒有執行。"],["許委員宇甄：目前的狀況，刪減0.65%是史上最低。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員一直在比刪減率，這樣不宜。"],["許委員宇甄：當然你們現在回編了這麼高額的追加預算，我們可以看得出來，雖然說立法院一開始刪減了1,075億，幫人民省下了不少的血汗錢，但是你現在又回編了878億，所以說回編這麼高的追加預算，心態非常可議，就是在玩弄政府的預算。","我們先從行政院本身的預算來看，回編率是48.83%，我們有分為幾個部分，先從一般行政來看，我們當時會刪減是因為行政院的職場霸凌，還有部分政務委員的任命有問題，以及行政院聯合服務中心的正副執行長被拿來做政治酬庸，因此刪減相關的預算。現在回編2,925萬，比率高達55.7%，所以是不是又要來酬庸特定人呢？","再來，聯合服務中心的經費之所以刪減，是因為它所聘用的助理很多都是一些酬庸性質，所以我們認為不該把中部的服務中心或全臺的服務中心當作安插政治酬庸的一個地方。現在追加預算要回編3,652萬，比率高達96.4%，當時我們有請行政院要提出具體的檢討方案，請問現在有出來了嗎？過去半年行政院聯合服務中心的人員到處在配合宣講大罷免，造謠立法院亂刪預算，現在卻要追加96.4%的預算，請問合理嗎？你們有提出具體檢討的方案出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院各地服務中心的人員有哪一位去配合大罷免，請委員指出來，我們來處理。"],["許委員宇甄：會後我一定會提供給你，絕對有。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有的話，請委員支持。"],["許委員宇甄：絕對有，我絕對不會空口說白話，會後我一定會告訴你。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果沒有，會後請委員支持行政院相關預算。"],["許委員宇甄：當然行政院任用的服務中心的執行長、副執行長，說實在都是酬庸的性質，我們也有很多的例子……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是借重他過去在地方上的組織人脈工作……"],["許委員宇甄：現在因為時間的關係，我會後一定會整理給院長，如果是的話，您是不是就要把這個預算吞回去，就讓它刪減了？根本不該用這樣的方式，剛剛你說，如果說沒有的話，你請我支持；那如果有的話，你要不要把這些人都砍掉？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們把各部會現在遇到的困難再一次向大院來……"],["許委員宇甄：既然這樣講的話，院長，我們就來做這樣一個協議，如果是這樣的話，那我同意這筆預算回復，如果不是的話，我請你把這筆預算刪減。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員能夠合理的審查。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我們再來看一下各部會的追加狀況，內政部的追加率有95.4%，外交部的追加率有151.3%，環境部的追加率有59.1%，行政院跟轄下的17個單位追加率是327.5%，海委會也追加了139%，許多部會都追加超過50%，追加率這麼高，有符合我們的財政紀律嗎？那立法院還要審預算嗎？我們審了之後把我們覺得浮編、濫編的預算刪除、凍結之後，你們又把它追加回來，這樣還有財政紀律嗎？我們還需要審預算嗎？下個會期我們還要審115年的預算嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是以原預算收支賸餘來編這一次的追加預算，沒有舉債，所以這個不牽涉任何財政紀律，我們還是嚴守財政紀律。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，其實你們已經嚴重的違反了預算法第七十九條，我們預算法第七十九條追加預算編列的規定是應該要有其中這幾項，目前看起來並沒有這些狀況，比如第三項的「因重大事故」，可是這一次不管是關稅的，不管是風災的，不管是其他國防的，我們其實都已經編列了特別預算支應，所以為什麼還要追加這些預算？我覺得這樣子是拿納稅人的錢在這邊開玩笑，我覺得真的不是行政院該做的事情。","還有，我們看一下，媒體宣傳費提出了4億2,906萬的追加預算，回編率達55.84%，這也非常的不合理，院長，你知道政論節目都在怎麼罵在野黨嗎？怎麼護航執政黨嗎？院長，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是編製在行政院內部的媒宣費用，你拿電視節目的……"],["許委員宇甄：院長，你知道政論節目怎麼在罵在野黨嗎？你有看過嗎？你今天晚上可以去看一下政論節目，沒關係，不管你怎麼轉，不管哪一台都一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：我從51台到57台都有看。"],["許委員宇甄：都是在罵在野黨，護航執政黨。"],["卓院長榮泰：有啦！51台到57台我都有看。"],["許委員宇甄：所以院長您知不知道？這次賴清德主席所聘任的秘書長就是民視的主持人，過去這一年多來，他就是在政論節目不斷地罵在野黨、詆毀在野黨，而且民視每年大概都可以拿到4億左右的宣傳費。所以院長你說看看，這樣的媒宣費用怎麼能夠追加回來呢？追加回來就是在罵在野黨，而不是真正為你們宣傳該有的政策。"],["卓院長榮泰：媒體宣傳很多是公開提案、公開招標的。"],["許委員宇甄：你知道嗎？那天在一個政論節目，主持人問三位名嘴說：過去這一年來，由民進黨執政的執政團隊有什麼政策是你們想得起來的？他們回答什麼？他們說：有啊！就是窒礙難行、覆議和釋憲。他們就是這樣回答問題，這也是一般民眾的想法。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們溝通不良，但是光這3件，真的就讓我們窒礙難行。"],["許委員宇甄：對，這是大家最常聽到院長講的一句話。"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊，我們是被動的……"],["許委員宇甄：那為什麼會窒礙難行呢？你有沒有想過這樣的原因呢？你不能把這些帽子都扣到我們立法院身上。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們覆議是被動的，釋憲是被動的，窒礙難行也是被動的，主動方都在委員身上。"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼會窒礙難行？其實你很清楚，行政院要負最大的責任，賴總統要負最大的責任。"],["卓院長榮泰：主動方在委員身上，預算這樣的編列，法案這樣的排列，把行政院的預算無限制往上提升……"],["許委員宇甄：我們再來看一下中選會的追加預算。因為本席在內政委員會，所以我在5月12日時曾經詢問過中選會主委李進勇，我說：針對今年相關的罷免經費跟公投經費，你有沒有編列預算？請播一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["許委員宇甄：李進勇主委本人也在現場，我在5月12日請教你、質詢你的時候，你說會動用二備金。現在呢？我們也看到針對第11屆立法委員的罷免案跟全國性的公民投票，在7月間已經兩度向行政院申請動支第二預備金，總共有15億左右，院長也已經核准了，我們可以看一下。所以都已經動用第二預備金了，為什麼在這個時候還要追加預算呢？請問院長，為什麼要重複地編列？"],["卓院長榮泰：向來罷免都是動用二備金沒有錯，因為那是單一事件，而這次由公民團體發起的罷免案件相當地大，完全用第二預備金的話，你也說那是救命錢，如果這個追加預算通過，我們就可以歸墊給第二預備金，第二預備金在有需要的時候，就可以用在更需要的用途。"],["許委員宇甄：院長，您知不知道今年度的第二預備金還剩多少？今年編列80億，現在還剩多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：三十餘億。"],["許委員宇甄：現在已經幾月了？現在已經快要9月了……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有用完的我們會回繳國庫，也不會把它……"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說，過去了8個月，未來這4個月你們還剩下三十多億，我剛剛也已經提了，不管是風災或其他，我們都提出了特別條例，也不會再用到這方面的錢，剩下4個月你還有三十多億可以用，而且是含扣掉這15億喔！假設你再回補這15億，是變成了4、50億耶！未來的4個月你還有可能用到這麼多錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，15億裡面有11億是公投。"],["許委員宇甄：我知道啊！我的意思是，都已經動用二備金了，你這時候又再追加回來……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為那個時候沒有追加預算。"],["許委員宇甄：而實際上你最後用掉這些以後，還有三十幾億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在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟總統官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長跟陳主席長然後請農業部 交通部 經濟部跟國發會請準備麻煩請卓院長 主席總長"},{"start":36.551,"end":54.696,"text":"總務委員好院長好 主席長好剛才我聽了前面幾位委員尤其在當委員的質詢我也很疑惑院長 主席長我來自過去十年前來自地方政府我們過去的地方政府常常辦理追加預算我先請教主席長中央政府行政院常辦理追加預算嗎"},{"start":56.02,"end":74.698,"text":"很少辦很少辦理我過去在這10年100年辦一次然後再來就是113年辦台電的追加所以我就認為這10年來我還是第一次遇到但是我在過去地方擔任副縣長期間我們常常辦追加預算為什麼因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或計劃競爭型計劃我們會預算先列"},{"start":78.321,"end":105.445,"text":"但是必須中央補助下來的時候我們才辦追加為什麼因為錢沒到我們不能辦發包所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後我們會馬上辦追加所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加追加的因為就是等著米下鍋行教院長這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政"},{"start":106.651,"end":133.68,"text":"委員這個形容是貼切的 跟我說的一樣水庫沒有水 支流就沒有水所以必須要水庫的水先把它填滿米要下鍋的意思是相同的那一般的社會認知去年在野黨亂砍中央政府走運算造成我們今年度的施政推動困難地方很多建設無錢可做為了解決這個困境所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可吹的困境 是不是這樣"},{"start":135.163,"end":142.553,"text":"當初是有談過在總統召集的院紀協商當中韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式"},{"start":143.175,"end":169.603,"text":"但是既然這樣的一個追加預算的方法是我們韓院長也提出為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成施政困難但是又不能夠預算重審所以請行政院以追加的方式來做是不是這樣子是沒錯嗎是好結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的從編率過高削弱了立法院的職權我很疑惑"},{"start":170.974,"end":200.186,"text":"明明就是立法院亂三三過頭了做不下去了才有院長出面為了解決這個難題請行政院不是用複製的方式提出用追加的預算方式提出簡單講我們行政院買一輛車結果呢立法院審計這邊啊也不要倒車雷達也不要那個衛星定位什麼都不要配備都不要結果連方向都沒有這個車交給你沒辦法開所以呢只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去這輛車才能開"},{"start":200.925,"end":223.084,"text":"是不是這樣子是 但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意那因為我們那個時候到現在各部會執行上發生的困難總要有一段時間去推動那現在收集的各部會所困難的狀況以及這個636億我們才組成這個再加上一些新增事項才有這個878億因為簡單講就是買一輛新車但是有人認為你們新車價格太高"},{"start":223.945,"end":252.786,"text":"很多設備都砍掉了結果這個車你開回來發現哇 油箱只有5公升根本沒有辦法開遠途所以要求再回去再買一個換個大油箱 是不是這樣子所以我是覺得雖然院長在這裡啊院長竟然有這麼好意也應該提醒一下預算中心啊既然這是院長要求用一個補救之道當然重編率很高嘛就是因為亂砍 砍就不該砍的才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛 院長你說對嗎"},{"start":253.852,"end":276.113,"text":"我們也是依照各部會實際之所需有部會已經刪除的認為他不至於造成重大自在難行也並不在這整個預算的這個追加當中所以啊我很少對我們立法院自己的機關自己的部門批評這個預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞"},{"start":277.308,"end":306.096,"text":"預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意結果還去批評說預算充電率太高真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心啊非給要我們韓院長難堪不可啊好我們現在來問我們真正重要的議題來我們主委長請回我們請農業部長還有我們的這個交通部長麻煩請農業部交通部備詢來我們現在看一下院長你看一下這張照片"},{"start":307.165,"end":325.063,"text":"你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西底下是什麼它是河還是路它應該是一條路而且是淤泥的水是我們農村常見的道路鋪得還不錯但是現在通通是水了為什麼"},{"start":325.845,"end":344.764,"text":"因為旁邊的農田水都排到道路上去了本來是路道現在變成河道我們來往下看來陳部長我們來看一下我們農田水利會過去有農田水利會農田水利法過去是農田水利會的時候我們的灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責"},{"start":346.366,"end":370.215,"text":"農委會或農業部是負責補足對不對但是現在因為農田水稻修改之後所有農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處這裡我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行如果沒有農用事實沒有灌溉需求的原來的灌溉的勾牌他就不再做灌溉勾了就變成了是由地方政府的區牌來處理是不是這樣子"},{"start":371.212,"end":400.293,"text":"對 如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候它可以化為都市化 填調或者是變成一個都市裡面的區域所以我們把這些具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府因為地方住宅需要嘛所以院長我們有沒有並同預算也給地方政府很多的預算支持讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作應該在預算當中地方政府可以運用到這個方向來好但是呢每個地方政府分配的不一樣"},{"start":401.24,"end":418.211,"text":"因為分配下來之後像農業縣分配到的比較少但是我們要去負責來處理成績的這些灌溉溝水的排水相對資源少所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤不能清淤的結果 結果是什麼這個農田我們往下看"},{"start":419.511,"end":448.231,"text":"這個農田呢他現在呢他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為呢地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了呢住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題"},{"start":450.495,"end":455.969,"text":"陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理"},{"start":457.56,"end":482.356,"text":"所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水"},{"start":483.076,"end":495.662,"text":"現在因為道路其實就可以負擔起道路的側溝排水它不能作為灌溉使用農田是不需要依賴側溝來灌溉但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放"},{"start":497.222,"end":516.52,"text":"陳部長 交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計 工程規範的設計要求是 我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣 以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了 車庫救護的功能"},{"start":516.94,"end":529.857,"text":"但實際上我們現在的測溝排不是只排道路的泄水我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排所以它的通紅的斷面它的設計的容量是不是要提高"},{"start":530.971,"end":554.765,"text":"目前應該是有提高但是在規範上面我覺得是可以調整的所以我相信請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部我們設法把農村地區的道路的工程規範的排水的效能把它提高他不只是負責道路的排水他也監助附近這些住宅或農地的排水是不是請我們指示兩位部長把這方面去研議"},{"start":556.139,"end":582.351,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是有關於農村地區的這些排水那因為那個水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管所以我們也會跟經濟部然後跟交通部一起去看看去重新一個設計我們請國發會的副主委上來也請經濟部的次長準備請陳部長可以先回 謝謝您的支持好 那麼部長你又指示了嘛那農業部長也說了那接下來的國發會這裡很重要"},{"start":583.001,"end":605.86,"text":"因為現在發現農業部他負責的設施他的效能不實現於農業而已所以目前農業部報的這些有農村地區相關的水利工程的預算請國科會要支持 院長支不支持謝謝委員 這個建議國科會可以支持 國發會可以支持吧是的好 那麼我們請經營部次長來好 那接下來我談另外一個問題"},{"start":607.788,"end":631.396,"text":"下一個問題我們現在談一個問題這次的風災發生了很多電力網故障需要代修的情況是不是 院長你下去親自看了是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復這很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線才一定要耗費人力去排除"},{"start":632.356,"end":652.711,"text":"經濟部長 是不是這樣子好 但是我們仔細看了一下為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢就是一個平地造林政策農業部陳部長 平地造林有關水土保持嗎沒有嘛有一部分啦平地造林 當年是20年前為什麼推動平地造林"},{"start":653.456,"end":669.433,"text":"所以我要加入WTO 為了減少台灣的耕地面積的計算所以我們霸量的農地比較生產力低的我們鼓勵他平地造林 是不是這樣子所以這些造的林啊 它是要零補助的但是正因為它只要零補助"},{"start":670.162,"end":696.924,"text":"他不求經濟效益所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多那麼其中包括什麼平地造林周邊地區這些樹疏於整理常常妨礙了道路上的電力的架空線造成台電的負擔何市長是不是這樣子這次的那個風災的停電一部分是因為這個樹枝的部分沒有修剪的部分我當然就屏東縣那個台電的區管處台電區營業處去算"},{"start":699.474,"end":716.012,"text":"111年數目構成的就這七件去年更多因為今年的颱風屏東比較沒有那麼嚴重去年的山陀我們很多的台電事故花費人力去做這些市長這些平地造林有三分之一是台塘的地你知道嗎是"},{"start":716.633,"end":735.125,"text":"可不可以 院長 請經濟部責任台棠先將他們平地造林的林地周邊有道路 有架空線的優先把他們平地造林的樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺避免再發生這個情況 可以嗎謝謝委員提醒經濟部應該要求台棠要負起這個責任"},{"start":736.052,"end":763.42,"text":"好謝謝所以呢我說與其颱風前去修減樹枝不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐不要再花力氣去維護也不會造成架空線受損市長你支持吧我支持好謝謝請回好來接下來我們要問的就是陳部長了院長其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候影響到我們的電力供應他也因為他屬於管理"},{"start":764.722,"end":787.468,"text":"陳部長你所知道的台灣這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林可以成材銷售獲益的有沒有我跟委員報告整個平地造林現在面積大概有一萬三千五百多公尺台塘占三分之以上然後台塘是一萬零差不多一萬零五百三分之二那其中已經成林而且具有生態價值大概三千八百多公尺你說的是生態價值"},{"start":788.388,"end":809.257,"text":"但是現在有700多公頃是可以恢復農業生產或是700多公頃我真的一萬三千公頃有700多萬分農業生產其他的你不做農業生產他也沒有經濟零的效益他有生態棲息的效益但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到我們平地造林20年期滿地主還可以領補助嗎"},{"start":810.848,"end":826.682,"text":"沒有了嗎所以沒有林補助的治下這13000多公頃的平地造林他就變成是一個地主爹不娘爺不愛沒有人去管只會造成附近農地農民的公害鼠害蛇害妨礙積水這些害眠部長你瞭解嗎"},{"start":827.482,"end":855.709,"text":"我跟委員報告就是一般平地造林很多樹種是20年還是不能砍拔的然後可能還要在10年的部分所以我們有後續的獎勵我們現在沒有要加入WTO了平地造林當時的政策目標卓院長您仔細聽 已經沒有了所以平地造林要整個的去重新盤點退場讓這些原來的農地它是不是可以做農業還是做其他的用途使用好好的來思考一下"},{"start":857.037,"end":883.342,"text":"我想我們會遵照委員的一個建議我剛才說的就是不是700公尺是7000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟零下經濟的部分那我們會重新盤點將有一些是不是可以可以把它砍拔以後變成恢復到生產所以何市長再上來我現在就講一個例子講給院長聽現在台積電要在屏東要設廠看中什麼"},{"start":884.059,"end":899.123,"text":"看中了我們的台塘的地上面在種什麼 種外銷的毛豆那台塘當然是讓給台積電 請毛豆農另外走啊那毛豆農他沒有地可以種他去問台塘還有哪些地可以種毛豆台塘說很多造林地"},{"start":900.185,"end":916.295,"text":"那些造林地其實不是只是台塘的台灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考如果這些地像台塘租給農民種毛豆地如果也可以台積電蓋廠經濟部支持嗎行政院支不支持"},{"start":918.457,"end":940.832,"text":"評論支持啊 平衡縣會支持啊但是毛澤東怎麼辦毛澤東要去找其他的地如果這些地是平地造林的地部長是不是應該重新全部盤點平地造林的地如果有已經不適合做造林使用改用其他 不管是其他的使用方式整個來通盤檢討 院長支不支持我覺得通盤檢討的事情"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時23分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請卓院長跟陳主計長，農業部、交通部、經濟部跟國發會請準備。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、主計長。"],["卓院長榮泰：鍾委員好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長好、主計長好。剛才我聽了前面幾位委員，尤其在野黨委員的質詢，我也很疑惑。院長、主計長，我過去10年前來自地方政府，在過去地方政府常常辦理追加預算，我先請教主計長，中央政府、行政院常辦理追加預算嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：很少辦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很少辦理嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我過去在這10年……"],["陳主計長淑姿：100年辦一次，再來就是113年辦台電的追加，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我就任立委這10年來，我還是第一次遇到，但是過去我在地方擔任副縣長期間，我們常常辦追加預算，為什麼？因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或競爭型計畫，我們會預算先列，但是必須中央補助下來的時候，我們才辦追加，為什麼？因為錢沒到，我們不能辦發包，所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後，我們會馬上辦追加，所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加，追加的原因就是等著米下鍋。請教院長，這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋，需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員這個形容是貼切的，跟我說的一樣，水庫沒有水，支流就沒有水，所以必須要先把水庫的水填滿，跟米要下鍋的意思是相同的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一般的社會認知，去年在野黨亂砍中央政府總預算，造成我們今年度的施政推動困難，地方很多建設無錢可做，為了解決這個困境，所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可炊的困境，是不是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初是有談過，在總統召集的院際協商當中，韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣的追加預算方法是由我們韓院長提出，是為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成的施政困難，但因為預算不能夠重審，所以請行政院以追加的方式來做，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒錯嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的重編率過高，削弱了立法院的職權，我很疑惑啊，明明就是立法院亂刪刪過頭了，做不下去了，才由院長出面，為了解決這個難題，請行政院不用覆議的方式提出，用追加預算的方式提出，簡單講，行政院要買一輛車，結果立法院審計這邊也不要倒車雷達，也不要衛星定位，什麼配備都不要，結果連方向燈都沒有，這個車交給你，沒辦法開，所以只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去，這輛車才能開，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意，因為我們從那個時候到現在，各部會執行上發生的困難，總要有一段時間去推動，現在蒐集了各部會困難的狀況，以及636億的部分，我們才組成這個部分，再加上一些新增事項，才有這個878億，我也要謝謝韓院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以簡單講，就是先買了一輛新車，但是有人認為你們新車價格太高，很多設備都砍掉了，結果這個車你開回來發現油箱只有5公升，根本沒有辦法開遠途，所以要求再回去換一個大油箱，是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：類似。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我是覺得，雖然院長在這裡，院長既然有這麼好意，也應該提醒一下預算中心啊，既然是院長要求用這樣的補救之道，當然重編率很高嘛，就是因為亂砍、砍掉不該砍的，才需要透過追加預算回復重編嘛，院長，您說對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也是依照各部會實際之所需，有部分已經刪除的，認為不至於造成重大窒礙難行，也並不在這整個的預算追加當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我很少對我們立法院自己的機關、自己的部門批評，預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞？因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞，預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意，結果還去批評預算重編率太高，真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心，非得要我們韓院長難堪不可。","我們現在來問真正重要的議題，主計長請回，我們請農業部長還有交通部長。"],["主席：麻煩請農業部、交通部備詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們先來看一下，院長，你看一下這張照片，你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西，底下是什麼？它是河還是路？"],["卓院長榮泰：它應該是一條路，而且是淤泥的水，把路都淹漫掉了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，是我們農村常見的道路，鋪得還不錯，但是現在通通是水了，為什麼？因為旁邊農田的水都排到道路上去了，本來是路道，現在變成河道。","我們來往下看，陳部長，我們來看一下，在過去是農田水利會的時候，這個灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責，農委會或農業部是負責補助，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是在農田水利法施行修改之後，所有的農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處，我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行，如果沒有農用事實、沒有灌溉需求的，原來灌溉的溝排就不再做灌溉溝了，就變成是由地方政府的區排來處理，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：對，如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候，可以都市化而填掉，或者是變成一個都市裡面的區排。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以我們把這些只具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府，因為地方住宅需要嘛。院長，我們有沒有併同預算，也給地方政府很多的預算支持，讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該在預算當中，地方政府可以運用到這個方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是每個地方政府分配到的不一樣，因為分配下來之後，像農業縣分配到的比較少，但是我們要去負責來處理承繼的這些灌溉溝渠的排水，相對資源少，所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤，不能清淤的結果是什麼？我們往下看，這個農田現在的取水不是透過水利溝來取水，它自己打井取水，而農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝，但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了，它不只要排農田的水，還要排附近住家的水，但是因為地方政府沒有能力，它財力不足，所以它不去做，結果造成了住宅的民生廢水也沒辦法排，農田的水也沒辦法排。陳部長，有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題？"],["陳部長駿季：陸續有一些縣市或者鄉鎮有反映這樣的問題，但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力，我們的預算已經撥下去，你就儘量做，但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情，什麼事情？其實這些農田跟民生住宅是混在一起的，這些溝渠變為水利溝之後，它作為區域排水，地方政府要去維護這沒錯，但是事實上我們中央各級的道路都有側溝排水，這些道路其實就可以負擔起……道路的側溝排水不能作為灌溉使用，農田不需要依賴側溝來灌溉，但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放。陳部長，交通部是不是主管全國各地分級道路的工程規範設計要求？"],["陳部長世凱：規範是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們工程設計的規範要求，我們的道路排水都是以降水的宣洩為主，我把路面的降水排掉就可以了，側溝就負責這個功能，但實際上我們現在的側溝不是只排道路的洩水，我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排，所以它的通洪斷面、它的設計容量是不是要提高？"],["陳部長世凱：目前應該是有提高，但是在規範上面，我覺得是可以調整的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部，我們設法把農村地區道路工程規範的排水效能提高，它不只是負責道路的排水，它也肩負附近這些住宅或農地的排水，是不是指示兩位部長就這方面去研議？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，有關於農村地區的這些排水，因為水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管，所以我們也會跟經濟部，然後跟交通部一起去重新設計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。我們請國發會的副主委上來，也請經濟部的次長準備，請陳部長可以先回，謝謝您的支持。","好，對部長你有指示了，那農業部長也說了，接下來國發會這裡很重要，因為現在發現農業部負責的設施，它的效能不只限於農業而已，所以目前農業部報的這些農村地區相關的水利工程預算，請國發會要支持，院長支不支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這個建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國發會可以支持吧？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們請經濟部次長。","接下來我談另外一個問題，這次的風災發生很多電力網故障待修的情況，是不是？院長你下去親自看了嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重，就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線，台電要耗費人力去排除。經濟部次長，是不是這樣子？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。但是我們仔細看了一下，為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢？就是因為平地造林政策。農業部陳部長，平地造林有關水土保持嗎？沒有嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：有一部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：平地造林當年……20年前為什麼推動平地造林？是因為要加入WTO……"],["陳部長駿季：WTO的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為了減少臺灣耕地面積的計算，所以我們對大量的農地，生產力比較低的，我們鼓勵平地造林，是不是這樣子？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這些造的林是要領補助的，但是正因為它只要領補助，它不求經濟效益，所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多，其中包括什麼？平地造林周邊地區，這些樹疏於整理，常常妨礙了道路上電力的架空線，造成台電的負擔，何次長，是不是這樣子？"],["何次長晉滄：這次風災的停電，一部分是因為樹枝的部分沒有修剪，會影響到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我單單就屏東縣台電的營業處去算，111年樹木造成的就是7件，去年更多，因為今年颱風對屏東的影響比較沒有那麼嚴重，去年的山陀兒讓很多台電的事故而要花費人力去做這些事。","次長，這些平地造林有三分之一是台糖的地，您知道嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：院長可不可以請經濟部責成台糖，先將他們平地造林的林地，周邊有道路、有架空線的優先把那些樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺，避免再發生這樣的情況，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提醒，經濟部應該要求台糖負起這個責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。所以我說，與其颱風前去修剪樹枝，不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐，不要再花力氣去維護，也不會造成架空線受損。次長，你支持吧？"],["何次長晉滄：我支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，請回，接下來我要問的就是陳部長了。院長，其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候會影響到我們的電力供應，也因為它疏於管理……陳部長，就你所知道的，臺灣的這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林，可以成材、銷售、獲益的，有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在整個平地造林的面積大概有一萬三千五百多公頃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：台糖占三分之一以上嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：台糖差不多有一萬零五百公頃……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不對，是占到三分之二以上。"],["陳部長駿季：有三分之二。其中已經成林，而且具有生態價值的大概有三千八百多公頃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你說的是生態價值，但是……"],["陳部長駿季：現在有七百多公頃是可以恢復農業生產，或是林下經濟……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有七百多公頃啊！我真的是……1萬3,000公頃，有七百多公頃可以恢復農業生產，其他的不做農業生產，也沒有經濟林的效益。它雖有生態棲息的效益，但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到，平地造林20年期滿，地主還可以領補助嗎？沒有了嘛！在沒領補助之下，這一萬三千多公頃的平地造林就變成是一個地主爹不疼、娘不愛、沒有人去管，只會造成附近農地農民的公害、鼠害、蛇害、妨礙積水等這些危害。部長，你了解嗎？"],["陳部長駿季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行政院院長剛剛已經親口承認了三高一低的預算 確實沒錯包括您所在的新北市 今年的預算也是史上最高最高並不是最過 看你有沒有做什麼事情我們今年編輯預算當中有2809億我一再強調是新增事項 過去所沒有的如果這些新增事項都不要的話 我們就比過去一樣"},{"start":217.253,"end":242.481,"text":"在經過大院的刪減之後 我們就只有去年本席問的問題跟你回答的方向完全不一致我第一個問的是 可不可以先請針對問題回答問題到底到現在三分之二年度過去了有哪一些預算該拿到人民的補貼當初造謠講說租金補貼 教育補貼幼兒津貼 甚至體育相關預算有哪一筆預算是沒有拿到我要謝謝大院在"},{"start":243.361,"end":267.628,"text":"今年上半年之後有比較快的速度跟效率回復了一些凍結的預算凍結預算之後所以沒有嘛我們一千多億的凍結有部分解除但是我們還是有包括台電在內的一千四百三十九億被刪除台電還有四百三十九億被刪除人民已經用公投也好或是說用兩次的投票都已經正式的正告行政部門"},{"start":268.628,"end":295.494,"text":"錯誤的能源政策不改什麼電都沒有用來 院長我再跟你請教我們這一次的追加預算800多億本期救市論事分兩個部分一個是636億是地方政府的一個補助款一個是將近300億也就是所謂的其他各單位對不對 我們分兩塊有一些新增的項目沒問題 我們分兩塊我想立法院從頭到尾沒有說要刪除這個必須依法編列的一般補助款636億"},{"start":297.219,"end":318.89,"text":"自行調整的部分行政院用乾坤大挪移把它去挪移到25%也就是所謂的636億那我請教什麼時候行政院確認要636億刪除掉地方政府的補儲款我們在大院確定刪除預算之後我們也對預算提出了各種的救濟都沒有辦法獲得"},{"start":320.871,"end":337.011,"text":"我沒有辦法講出時間600多億行政院長不知道時間你要問我哪一天嗎不是 什麼時候確定就是在大院刪除之後我們經過各項救濟都沒有辦法來回復的時候我們看看各部會已經被刪除的預算"},{"start":338.413,"end":361.389,"text":"今年1月立法院通過了總預算2月總統召集協商立法院長行政院長一起協商那是2月的事情當時韓國瑜院長也提出說可以請行政部門用追加預算來辦理不一定要提復議行政院不聽3月提出復議之後被立法院打臉到5月你們提出了地方政府的補助款刪除現在幾月"},{"start":362.284,"end":379.275,"text":"所以我們在那個時候我們就之後我們還要看看各部會執行的困難不是 院長我現在跟你討論636億五月的時候你們提出了刪除地方政府636億地方政府是不是馬上在禮拜四的行政院會都告訴行政院長說這樣不可"},{"start":380.939,"end":407.949,"text":"會有摯愛難請之處因為地方政府的命根子地方政府的財源會被你全部都卡掉當時我有請地方我們中央地方一體共體一間結果現在8月才提出最佳預算因為我們還有各部會我們除了地方政府的反應之外還有各部會在執行上實際發生的困難我們現在在討論是636億我可能辦第一次或第二次的追加你沒有辦法針對問題解決問題回答問題這樣子我們很難理性溝通就如同剛剛吳斯亞委員都已經在講啦"},{"start":408.849,"end":432.266,"text":"吳蔡委員現在又要離開了但是他剛剛在講的時候他剛剛在講啊我們就事論性就問題解決問題本席現在在請教的是你說我什麼時候提出最佳預算嗎636億你們提出來地方政府也講說自愛難行是五月的時候提出來到現在八月那中間三個月的時間我們還有各部會主席長或行政院長這樣也很清楚我們還有各部會的自愛難行啊地方政府"},{"start":432.606,"end":445.871,"text":"地方政府是不是現在即便是我們現在八月底要通過地方補助款的話有可能很多的發包有可能很多工程有可能很多過去行之有年的這些建設也會在最後四個月來不及"},{"start":446.758,"end":450.961,"text":"院長本席很認真的跟你討論的地方在於是哪裡在於是"},{"start":467.712,"end":483.184,"text":"2月韓國院長就已經代表立法院也說明了可以用追加預算行政院不聽3月一定要提復議復議完之後5月乾坤大挪移把636億挪移到地方政府補助款就到現在8月"},{"start":483.985,"end":500.348,"text":"非得一定要就是大罷免大失敗之後你們才要來做相關的救濟嗎不是這樣子的看起來就是如此啊我們要讓各部會執行上真的發生困難的時候你們現在的狀況從一開始開宗明義本席就講了你也說了三高一低的預算"},{"start":501.567,"end":524.127,"text":"拿到史上最高的總預算結果現在三分之二年度過去了才在那邊講是說要追加預算這不是拿地方政府來綁架立法院什麼才是那最大宗的就是636億所以這就是代表行政部門過去應該依法編列的地方政府補助款的預算你們拿來綁架變成是拿來跟立法院叫板嗎"},{"start":525.347,"end":549.743,"text":"看準了立法院我們希望是大家能夠推動所以636億我們會支持但是你們到現在8月的時候才要提出水庫的水被抽光了流降之流的就會減少這是必然的32比0是國人告訴民進黨政府國會監督制衡的重要性"},{"start":551.43,"end":570.308,"text":"我們一年多來絕對專業理性問政監督但是一年多來民進黨政府有沒有做到這樣子好好的施政好好的為人民法官本席也一直認為賴清德總統一年多來確實欠台灣人民一個道歉"},{"start":572.779,"end":601.733,"text":"他是黨主席他是總統但到目前為止沒有聽到他對罷罷免完畢之後他有對罷團說道歉罷團說對不起所以與民同行結果與的是少數的公民同行而不是多數的主流民意那本席想請教賴清德總統說不出口的道歉我們是提出大罷免的是行政機關或是總統賴清德總統說不出口的道歉行政院長卓榮泰願意幫他道歉嗎"},{"start":602.964,"end":631.218,"text":"我幫總統道歉我沒有這個任何的權利幫總統道歉如果行政院任何部分有錯誤那我想請教那我想請教過去這幾次您跟賴清德總統請辭的主要原因是什麼我認為在一次的投票之後我們感覺到我們的施政並沒有馬上可以反應下去所以我認為這個團隊要調整那團隊要調整那您請辭的原因是什麼"},{"start":632.418,"end":657.869,"text":"必須負起這樣團隊調整的政治責任那與其部分的調整不如全部的調整賴清德總統留任的原因主要是什麼他認為我們過去所做的一些事情現在還在持續當中也發揮了一定的成果未來包括明年的總預算包括我們所提出的各項建設所以他認為整個溝通就如同您剛講的溝通是不良的政策沒有下放的"},{"start":658.909,"end":686.73,"text":"行政院長副院長不用調整那其他部會要調整希望現在的局勢能夠穩下來但是再提出了四個調整那四個調整在七月底的時候我也提出過就是財政的體質院長你還是沒有回答問題來 院長我再直接請教一下那現在因為這一次提出來636億剛剛已經討論完剩下200多億各部會的總共有幾個部會提出來最佳預算總共提出來的部會有包括"},{"start":688.012,"end":693.818,"text":"總共幾個還要翻資料總共幾個還要翻資料還要翻資料啊19個部會來19個部會有哪幾個部長有可能會調整這個人事的問題容許我不在這裡做我只問幾個我沒有說哪一個"},{"start":711.53,"end":728.701,"text":"院長您剛剛馬上快訊就出來了嘛說你剛剛回答王洪威委員講說五個以上嘛可能市長加部長五個以上但本市想要確認為什麼我覺得這很重要啊就如同說行政院長我們記不記得2024年我們2月1號就已經開議了當時也做過施政總報告"},{"start":729.662,"end":748.195,"text":"那施政總報告結束之後等到您五月二十號您上任之後我們還是要求再次施政總報告因為換了主官換了主事者可能會有不同的思維那一樣的道理現在我們通過的追加預算如果現在是A部長接結果通過了A部長所提出的追加預算結果馬上一個禮拜內換B部長"},{"start":749.298,"end":766.833,"text":"那我們到底要不要再問一下說這B部長有沒有自愛難行還是B部長會不會認為說其實他現在預算就夠了政府的施政是延續性的如果有新的部長上任我會跟他你剛剛就講了嘛我會跟他再上任賴清德總統認為是說有人事要調整的必要所以說你們也做人事調整"},{"start":767.273,"end":795.059,"text":"即便是你多次請辭我剛剛也聽不清楚說你到底請辭的理由跟藉口是什麼但是不管怎麼樣看起來你也留定了那我們現在想問的是那下面的部長我可以叫哪一個部長上來他會不會一個禮拜跟我承諾之後結果一個禮拜內他就不見了兩個步驟 第一個政府的施政是連續性一貫性的我待會教是連續性的一貫性新的首長但是主事者這麼重要不管換A換B換一顆西瓜也可以當任部長"},{"start":795.959,"end":804.077,"text":"新的首長在跟他徵詢面談決定之前我都會跟他提到相關預算的問題我希望他能夠執行現在的那你面談過幾個部長了現在"},{"start":808.356,"end":833.626,"text":"您面談過幾個部長了我現在就是有兩位部長提出了職程因為有一位次長也提出了離開那其他呢那其他的都還在進行當中什麼時候會決定我希望盡快會等到我們這個禮拜五院會通過追加預算之後你們下午才決定我希望本週能夠盡快決定就是這個禮拜五下班以前如果能夠更早的話會更符合您的期待院長來喔"},{"start":836.55,"end":861.868,"text":"最近的政論節目都有提到說過去這一年多民進黨政府為什麼會施政滿意度不管是賴清德總統或卓榮泰院長或是內閣團隊都屢創新低確實這是客觀數字沒有辦法騙人但其中一個很重要的理由是那到底過去這一年多我們自豪的政策推出有感民眾認為說卓榮泰內閣裡面真的在關心的政策"},{"start":863.196,"end":866.431,"text":"說政論節目問到三個名嘴名嘴啞口無言也說不出來"},{"start":868.146,"end":895.521,"text":"給你一個宣傳的時間三個政策有認為說具體哪三個政策是人民過去這一年都你們很自豪的我們在經濟發展委員會當中第一個造源投資國家的方案現在已經有十足的進展往以後會更加快速另外就是亞洲資產管理中心在高雄的場域試驗已經有多家的金融機構投入也展現了一個新的氣息另外我們今年很重視兩項一個是中小企業的多元振興跟發展"},{"start":896.221,"end":920.891,"text":"我們用了比過去更多的經費另外我們在系統性治水方面我們也把它提升經費希望能夠救八年八百億前瞻之後系統性治水這是有淹水但是我知道淹水的地區縮小了退水的時間比較快你提到這三個政策有感的政策姑且你心中認為有感你知道這有一個共通點嗎這三個政策都是經濟部長的工作"},{"start":922.008,"end":942.834,"text":"你剛講這三個中策都是主要是經濟部長的工作這也看得出來我們國人才會覺得最加的訝異就是當你這樣講這三個部分經濟有沒有表現好國人不清楚國人有感但是國人有沒有感不一定但是你提到這三個部分沒有一個宏觀的狀況我們的打仗呢我們的國防"},{"start":945.06,"end":964.644,"text":"做的AI制度和人工智力當初講說AI內閣結果現在AI人工智慧基本法還停在行政院版本還沒有出來我們說實在話你知道你的部長已經在立法院跳票兩次了嗎"},{"start":964.684,"end":990.596,"text":"本來承諾七月初要出來的黑暗活動諸位基本法七月十五號也沒有出來結果到現在我們立法院已經先審查了還在等待行政院的反本拜託院長行刑好院長可以的話真的回去好好地把五位首長每個人給上起八條國家還需要往前在野黨有責任跟在野黨也願意跟行政部門一起合作但是絕對不是這個樣子"},{"start":996.421,"end":997.843,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟凱委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時6分）謝謝主席，麻煩請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：卓院長好。卓院長，114年行政院送出來的總預算及這一次8月所送出來的追加預算，總共有三高、一低四個特點。三高分別是總預算規模史上最高，即便是通過了立法院的審查，仍高達2兆9,300億元左右，是中華民國歷屆政府史上最高的總預算；第二、如果再加計這一次的追加預算八百多億的話，將首次突破3兆元預算，追加預算也創歷史新高；第三、回編率史上最高。立法院依照人民給予立法委員的職權監督政府、把關預算、看緊人民荷包，但是當我們請行政部門撙節開支的時候，沒想到這一次追加預算又再回編，回編率史上最高。一低，什麼低？刪除率，如果扣除台電1,000億，這一次假設全部都回編的話，將會是史上最低的刪除率，過去8年即便是民進黨國會多數、全面過半，刪除率也沒有那麼低過，低達0.65%，換言之，當初行政院所提出的3兆元預算，在現在回編率創新高的情況下，刪除率只有0.65%。院長拿了那麼多錢，手上那麼多現金，過去一直推說這是經濟表現亮眼，地方政府也編高，所以行政部門也編高，但是我開宗明義第一點就跟你說了，總預算也是史上最高，高達2兆9,300億。今年三分之二過去了，到現在又再推出一個所謂的八百多億的追加預算，這個追加預算裡面分兩塊，我想先跟您就教，到目前為止，有哪一個部門的補貼是人民反映有窒礙難行，或在被凍結又解凍之後沒有領到補貼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員這樣對數字的整理，確實也沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實沒錯，非常好。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院編的預算比較高……"],["洪委員孟楷：行政院院長剛剛已經親口承認了三高一低的預算就是確實沒錯。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，你要讓我講完嘛！這樣斷章……我是說包括您所在的新北市，今年的預算也是史上最高，最高並不是罪過，重要的是看你有沒有做什麼事情。我們今年編的預算當中有2,809億我一再強調是新增事項，是過去所沒有的，如果這些新增事項都不要的話，我們就跟過去一樣，在經過大院的刪減之後，我們就只有去年的92%。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，本席問的問題跟你回答的方向完全不一致。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個問的是為什麼高……"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以請你針對問題回答問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：那第二個問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：到現在三分之二的年度過去了，到底有哪一些預算，該拿到沒拿到……人民的補貼，當初造謠說租金補貼、教育補貼、幼兒津貼甚至是體育相關預算，有哪一筆預算是沒有拿到的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要謝謝大院，在今年上半年之後有比較快的速度跟效率回復了一些凍結的預算，凍結預算之後解除了我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以沒有嘛！是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一千多億的凍結有部分解除……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：但我們還是有包括台電在內的1,439億被刪除……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要再講台電。"],["卓院長榮泰：扣掉台電還有439億被刪除。"],["洪委員孟楷：人民已經用公投也好，或是用兩次的投票，都已經正告行政部門，錯誤的能源政策不改，什麼電都沒有用！","院長，我再跟你請教，這一次的追加預算八百多億，本席就事論事，分兩個部分，一個是636億是地方政府的補助款，一個是將近300億，也就是所謂的其他各單位，對不對？我們分兩塊。"],["卓院長榮泰：還有一些新增的項目。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒問題，我們分兩塊。我想立法院從頭到尾沒有說要刪除這個必須依法編列的一般補助款，636億，自行調整的部分，行政院用乾坤大挪移把它挪移到25%，也就是所謂的636億。那我請教，什麼時候行政院確認要刪636億、刪除掉地方政府的補助款？"],["卓院長榮泰：在大院確定刪除預算之後，我們也對預算提出了各種救濟，都沒有辦法獲得……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候確定？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有辦法講時間……"],["洪委員孟楷：六百多億，行政院長不知道時間！"],["卓院長榮泰：你要問我哪一天嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，什麼時候確定？月份。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是在大院刪除之後，我們經過各項救濟都沒有辦法回復的時候，我們看看各部會已經被刪除的預算……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，國事如麻，今年1月立法院通過了總預算；2月總統召集協商，立法院長、行政院長一起協商，那是2月的事情。當時韓國瑜院長也提出可以請行政部門用追加預算來辦理，不一定要提覆議，行政院不聽。3月提出覆議之後被立法院打臉，到5月你們提出了地方政府的補助款刪除。現在幾月？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，所以我們在那個時候……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在幾月？"],["卓院長榮泰：在之後我們還要看各部會執行的困難。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，院長，我現在跟你討論636億，在5月的時候你們提出了刪除地方政府636億？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：地方政府是不是馬上在禮拜四的行政院院會都告訴行政院長說這樣不可，會有窒礙難行之處？因為地方政府的命根子、地方政府財源會被你全部都卡掉。"],["卓院長榮泰：當時我有請地方……我們中央、地方一體一起共體時艱。"],["洪委員孟楷：結果現在8月才提出追加預算。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我還有各部會……"],["洪委員孟楷：那請教過去這3個月在幹什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們除了地方政府的反映之外，還有各部會在執行上實際發生的困難。我們不可能辦……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在在討論的是636億……"],["卓院長榮泰：第一次或第二次的追加。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你沒有辦法針對問題、解決問題、回答問題，這樣子我們很難理性溝通。就如同剛剛吳思瑤委員都已經在講，吳思瑤委員現在要離開了，但他剛剛在講，我們就事論事、就問題解決問題，本席現在在請教的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：你說我什麼時候提出追加預算嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：636億你們提出來，地方政府也講窒礙難行。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：5月的時候提出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：到現在8月了，那中間3個月的時間……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還有各部會……"],["洪委員孟楷：主計長或行政院院長應該也很清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還有各部會的窒礙難行啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：地方政府是不是……即便是現在我們8月底要通過地方補助款的話，有可能很多的發包、很多的工程、很多過去行之有年的建設，在最後的4個月也會來不及。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這個部分如果刪減一般性補助款，影響到的是歲入，就歲出，如果它本身照案執行，它還是照樣可以發包，只是將來就是……所以這個部分我們就有掐定它的一個時間。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，本席很認真地跟你討論的地方是在於哪裡？在於2月韓國瑜院長就已經代表立法院也說明了可以用追加預算，行政院不聽，3月一定要提覆議。覆議完之後，5月乾坤大挪移，把636億挪移到地方政府的補助款，結果到現在都8月了！非得一定要大罷免、大失敗之後，你們才要做相關的救濟嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣子的，我說過……"],["洪委員孟楷：這看起來就是如此。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要讓各部會執行上真的發生困難的時候，反映到院裡面，我們一併提出追加預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們現在的狀況，從一開始本席開宗明義就講了，你也說了三高一低的預算，拿到史上最高的總預算，結果現在三分之二的年度過去了才在那邊講要追加預算，這不是拿地方政府來綁架立法院，什麼才是！"],["卓院長榮泰：最大宗的就是636億，這個回到地方，大家解決問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：是！所以這就是代表行政部門過去應該依法編列的地方政府補助款的預算被你們拿來綁架，變成拿來跟立法院叫板嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為行政院……"],["洪委員孟楷：看準了立法院苦民所苦，看準了……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為行政院被刪減了那麼多的預算，我們已經……"],["洪委員孟楷：看準了立法院我們希望大家能夠推動，所以636億我們會支持，但是你們到現在8月的時候才要提出！"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是要強調那一句話，水庫的水被抽光了，流向支流的就會減少，這是必然的。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，32比0的結果是國人在告訴民進黨政府國會監督制衡的重要性，一年多來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們接受國會合理、依憲、依法的制衡，這個完全接受。"],["洪委員孟楷：我絕對專業、理性地問政、監督，但是一年多來，民進黨政府有沒有做到好好地施政、好好地為人民把關？本席也一直認為，賴清德總統一年多來確實欠臺灣人民一個道歉，他是黨主席，也是總統，但是到目前為止都沒有聽到。在大罷免結束之後，他有對罷團說對不起，所謂與民同行，結果他是與少數的公民同行，而不是多數的主流民意。本席想請教……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是尊重公民團體自主的活動……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席想請教，賴清德總統說不出口的道歉，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們並沒有主張提出大罷免的是行政機關或總統，我們是尊重公民團體的自主活動。"],["洪委員孟楷：賴清德總統說不出口的道歉，行政院長卓榮泰願意幫他道歉嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我幫總統道歉？我沒有任何權力幫總統道歉。如果行政院任何部分有錯誤，那我可以，但是我無法替總統道歉。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我想請教，過去這幾次您跟賴清德總統請辭的主要原因是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：在幾次的投票之後，我們感覺到我們的施政並沒有馬上可以反映下去，所以我認為這個團隊要調整。那團隊要調整……"],["洪委員孟楷：你請辭的原因是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：必須負起這樣團隊調整的政治責任。與其部分調整，不如全部調整，所以我向總統……"],["洪委員孟楷：你被賴清德總統留任的原因主要是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：他認為我們過去所做的一些事情現在還在持續當中，也發揮了一定的成果，未來包括明年的總預算、包括我們所提出的各項建設、包括AI新十大建設還要持續……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以他認為整個溝通就如同您剛剛講的，溝通是不良的，政策是沒有下放的，但是行政院長、副院長不用調整，其他部會要調整，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：他是希望現在的局勢能夠穩下來，但是他也提出了四個調整，那四個調整在7月底的時候我也提出過，就是財政的體質……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，您還是沒有回答我的問題！我再直接請教一下，這次提出的追加預算當中，636億剛剛已經討論完了，剩下兩百多億是各部會的，總共有幾個部會提出追加預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：提出來的部會包括……"],["洪委員孟楷：總共幾個？還要翻資料啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：總共幾個我當然要算啊，我不能一下子跟你說幾個。"],["洪委員孟楷：總共幾個還要翻資料啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：包括經濟部、內政部、數發部、農業部、國防部……"],["洪委員孟楷：還要翻資料啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：海委會、衛福部……"],["洪委員孟楷：19個部會！"],["卓院長榮泰：對呀！"],["洪委員孟楷：這19個部會有哪幾個部長可能會調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：人事的問題請容許我不在這裡做……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只問幾個，我沒有說哪一個！","院長，你剛剛的答詢新聞快訊馬上就出來了，說你剛剛回答王鴻薇委員說是5個以上，可能是次長加部長有5個以上，但是本席想要確認，因為我覺得這很重要，就如同行政院長，不知道你記不記得，2024年我們2月1號就開議了，當時也做過施政總報告，施政總報告結束之後，等到5月20號您上任，我們還是要求再次進行施政總報告，因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛王委員是問我說……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為換了主官、換了主事者，可能會有不同的思維，一樣的道理，現在辦理追加預算的是A部長，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凍結最嚴格這是史上未見的一個總預算之亂我們都在全民持續的受苦"},{"start":81.038,"end":96.258,"text":"但是來年要編列也即將送出的115年總預算我更要說是中央財政有史以來最最黑暗的時期而且這是史上最難編列的一次總預算"},{"start":97.379,"end":123.645,"text":"稍後我會就追加預算任性特別預算跟年度新的總預算來就教於您我要再次呼籲國會縱使應當嚴格審查但也要合理監督不是胡扯硬凹以為要癱瘓傷害執政黨卻是傷害了自己的國家下一頁"},{"start":124.795,"end":150.433,"text":"今天我先跟您講文化講文化會讓我們更優雅一點我也期待我卸任幹事長之後我可以回到文化立委的身份去投入我最熱愛也最專業的文化的政策首先在2018年吳斯堯是國會第一位我倡議台灣的國家軟實力就是文化力要善用國際的Mega Event"},{"start":151.233,"end":175.662,"text":"讓台灣的國家品牌跟上國際的賽會賽事讓世界看見台灣所以當我2018年倡議的時候我那時候的聚焦就是優先從2020年的東京奧運再來2024年的巴黎奧運乃至於2025今年的大阪世博都讓台灣組成文化國家隊讓世界看見台灣下一頁"},{"start":176.562,"end":193.321,"text":"於是當時的行政院長賴清德他就同意拍板成為我們文化外交的新模式因此2021年我們在東京奧運啟動的台灣Now就是一個最好的開端下一頁"},{"start":194.321,"end":220.421,"text":"接著在巴黎的奧運上我們又用文化台灣呈現台灣的文化藝術力也獲得世界的掌聲他不只表演藝術視覺藝術我們的策展我們的閱讀所有的文化人集結邁向讓世界看到利用運動賽會的奧運舞台他也是台灣的文化盛會下一頁"},{"start":221.403,"end":236.423,"text":"所以今年的大阪是博我們的文化部門也是這樣雄心壯志乘勝追擊但是就因為在野黨二砍二刪預算而且鎖定特定的預算就是國際的沒宣費"},{"start":238.105,"end":258.465,"text":"讓台灣的國際宣傳沒了錢就是形同讓台灣的文化力台灣的聲音在世界背勁聲勒住了脖子勒住台灣自己脖子的人是自己的立法委員自己的國會所以承受了惡果啊今年的大阪市博就是現在八月"},{"start":259.673,"end":276.23,"text":"然後呢 國際沒宣費被在野黨惡砍之後文化人站出來由楊大正 由吳念真老師發起民間募資要推動我們前進大阪的活動因為要強化宣傳"},{"start":277.301,"end":292.686,"text":"我們的文化藝術表演界都準備好但沒有文化宣傳費所以發起了民間募資在登場的這一系列35組藝術人超過140場的文化展演共募資光37小時就募資600萬"},{"start":294.491,"end":323.871,"text":"所以這已經上路的三週的文化展演在大阪獲得無限的掌聲這是第一階段的募資第二階段的募資下一頁就是現在即將要利用如果大阪市博未來要卸幕的時候文化人再啟動一次的募資到現在也有700萬的民間的善款我們要在閉幕的時候We Taiwan這個文化運動要在大阪所有的地鐵"},{"start":325.031,"end":353.214,"text":"來感謝世界各國支持台灣的力量再一次的行銷台灣而國家沒有錢被國民黨民眾黨惡砍了只好讓民間的文化人來募資韓國瑜院長打算安排朝野的立委九月可以到大阪去見證台灣文化力的實力展現但我要說院長你不覺得國會對不起文化人嗎"},{"start":355.373,"end":374.76,"text":"國會對不起文化人嗎當我們帶著大批的立委跨黨派的立委要去大阪沾光的時候國會卻是扼砍我們文化國際宣傳的元兇我不曉得韓院長帶著草野的立委去大阪的時候是要抱著什麼心情"},{"start":375.936,"end":393.468,"text":"我認為國會欠文化人一個道歉文化人站出來搶救文化預算到現在被國民黨的立法委員秋後算帳進行政治的追殺這就是一個惡果啊所以我從文化的事件開始下一頁"},{"start":394.628,"end":423.189,"text":"所有的惡果都在這一張通宣9391不明就裡還砍過頭國務委員我能回答一句話好請回答為了向委員學習對文化的重視我們明年文化部的預算跟今年一樣我堅持超過300億元我們也達到了這是第一個再來文化部明年有一個計畫要把大阪博覽會相關文化預算回來台灣沒錯我知道你們先去看我們在台灣等"},{"start":423.885,"end":445.504,"text":"我希望在野黨的立委不要再為難文化了我也支持在新年度的預算國家支持文化軟實力國會不要再惡砍當然非常好大阪這個140場的文化展演確實文化部打算讓它移回台灣讓台灣人也能受惠我絕對支持政府這樣的做法謝謝委員"},{"start":446.405,"end":469.486,"text":"但是不要再上演去年通山9391還砍過頭還找不到明目砍要行政院自己去調節就產生了6361的這個惡果剛剛在野黨的委員還在這裡大聲指責您我真的是覺得沒有看過這種加害者一再的譴責受害人"},{"start":470.347,"end":487.808,"text":"而當受害的一方行政團隊想方設法提出解方也就是追加預算來解套來挽救國家的財政推動國家的政務的時候現在這些在野黨的委員還在那邊轉移焦點想要洗白自己的罪行下一頁"},{"start":488.869,"end":511.65,"text":"追加預算我們即將安排審議明後天的委員會跟週五的院會這也是韓國瑜院長所拋書的就讓砍過頭的預算用追加預算來恢復補回這也是泛藍陣營地方執政的縣市首長共同的呼籲所以呢下一頁"},{"start":512.671,"end":532.885,"text":"我在這裡說讓施政回歸正軌藍白的立委如果想要洗白自己二彈總預算的罪行不要再擋追加預算了他除了有636億地方補助款之外更有我剛剛說的很重要的中央施政必要的預算下一頁"},{"start":534.321,"end":552.823,"text":"這些是中央時政各部會真的需要用錢的部分我剛剛講的We Taiwan在大阪的文化行動下一頁我們同樣受到重傷的就是媒體宣傳費不只對外對國際行銷台灣被自己的立法委員掐住了脖子"},{"start":555.176,"end":565.14,"text":"對內當政策需要對國人進行宣導的時候也被砍光光怎麼做譬如說政策的宣導有什麼風災之後要宣導災民怎麼樣來"},{"start":566.519,"end":592.748,"text":"加入政府給的協助措施對不對當我們要打詐需要沒宣費告訴政府告訴人民現在政府有哪些打詐的做法包括馬上要普發現金了如果在野黨不要在黨任性特別條例修正案的話發現金的過程這是史上花最多的一次現金他當然需要去宣傳告訴國人怎麼執行不要被詐騙嘛對不對"},{"start":594.758,"end":612.421,"text":"院長給您最後的時間喊話一下在野黨的委員這是你們真真切切去洗白你們二砍總預算的機會就是支持追加預算院長再次喊話吧在總統指示下我們願意而且會主動的來調整兩院互動關係"},{"start":613.542,"end":642.501,"text":"所以為了追加預算 為了特別預算為了明年度總預算我們會主動積極來進行溝通協調我也希望大院給我們這個機會但是如果牽涉到是憲法的問題那沒有什麼可以討論的憲法的標準是有一套所以剛剛也許我的語氣比較激動因為委員對於憲政的秩序要了解對於釋憲 對於暫時處分的公用要了解才能在這裡對話"},{"start":643.862,"end":666.458,"text":"所以我並不願意用一種比較激烈的態度來講話我還是誠誠懇懇拜託大院這一次的中央政府總預算的追加限制到各部會目前的困難自在難行我們更希望一起中央地方來解決現在所遇到的財政問題這個一解決今年度我們解決明年度的中央政府總預算我們回到"},{"start":667.383,"end":674.552,"text":"合理正常的朝野行商我們該怎麼做包括警消包括軍人如果釋憲出來我們這個條例沒有違憲"},{"start":678.814,"end":707.148,"text":"我們就補回來 追溯回來如果違憲我們現在發了我請問委員我們現在發了一個違憲的執行是立法院違憲還是行政院違憲還是我們共同違憲我們都不要承擔這個責任我是用這樣的方式跟態度我也請韓院長理解各位委員理解 謝謝所以其實院長您不用覺得對於剛剛可能動了一點氣覺得sorry事實上面對這種在野黨的立委不懂憲政"},{"start":708.228,"end":732.602,"text":"不懂法律也不懂自己國會基於權力分立的原則沒有立院最大這件事在野黨的委員如果沒有辦法清楚的掌握真的秀才遇見兵有理說不清不要說是您啊我每一次朝野協商都氣到火冒三丈啊但我們都在忍辱負重我們都在為國家的前進持續的不放棄溝通"},{"start":733.906,"end":752.411,"text":"我們要提高自己的修養是還好我們都很優雅下一頁講到任性特別預算我們透過修正案的部分停產業顧民生助弱勢也要發現金這都是產業要的救命錢更是弱勢期待的及時雨下一頁"},{"start":753.411,"end":782.014,"text":"所以說讓違憲成為核憲我們提出特別條例的修正案增加到5900億的預算然後呢我非常期待這個週末也就是週五讓這個史上最常研會也最沒有意義的研會至少交出起碼合格的成績單就是讓任性特別條例的預算案能夠對不起修正案能夠順利通過我相信韓院長也會做出努力來進行朝野協商"},{"start":782.654,"end":810.587,"text":"所以如果8月底我們能夠讓特別條例違憲成為合憲立法院通過之後9月就可以編出預算送出預算國會審查最快最快10月可望來執行相關的預算停產業顧名聲發現金駐弱市這是我們共同的期待希望藍白的立委不要再找任何的方式來做"},{"start":811.547,"end":827.291,"text":"為反對而反對的作為下一頁我們對於預算提出調整因為我們需要擴大加碼挺弱勢跟支持產業下一頁我非常不能接受當中有一筆200億強化台電電力設施的預算"},{"start":831.892,"end":851.018,"text":"這200億是用在全台灣的產業園區乃至於工業區要協助產業能夠有穩定的供電更強韌的電網韌性來幫助產業的發展但是目前為止據說在野黨尤其民眾黨的委員似乎磨刀霍霍不給這筆預算"},{"start":853.019,"end":874.085,"text":"吳斯堯來自台北市北市科是北台灣科技狼帶最後一塊拼圖也是我們期待輝達可以進駐如果在野黨的委員何況柯文哲前市長一再把北市科當作他的政績但事實上我要說這是郝龍斌市長任內就殿下的基礎包括吳斯堯擔任市議員我們一起來催生"},{"start":877.113,"end":901.366,"text":"如果現在這200億被民眾黨的委員揚言要砍了我希望不是事實喔那麼對於北市科的發展對於輝達的進駐乃至於其他台灣的工業區產業區的產業的需求就會大受傷害下一頁所以輝達落腳北市科除了黃仁勳說請蔣萬事長加把勁"},{"start":903.647,"end":931.795,"text":"我也希望請藍白的立委不要為反對而反對最後的時間請您來進行說明謝謝委員而且台電的這個預算我已經請他啟動全國電纜地下化的評估他會在初期也把這些評估甚至選定一些發電所需要技術可行的要先行做一些工作出來所以這個預算如果通過早日朝電纜地下化整個電纜韌性安全來做不僅台北受益"},{"start":934.787,"end":962.348,"text":"支持台電電網韌性強化的預算這兩百億是全台灣的產業園區工業區所需要的是我們因應美國的關稅抽集我們停產業不止產業的非常重要的珍貴的預算我也希望不要迷難北市科不要成為北市科發展的絆腳石不要成為歸雜進駐北市科的阻礙我再呼籲再也講說"},{"start":964.619,"end":969.564,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝吳思瑤委員執行謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":423,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（9時49分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：院長，大家辛苦了，請息怒。誰在硬拗、誰在強詞奪理，社會自有公斷。負責任的執政黨，我們努力做到，只是可惜忠誠的在野黨在臺灣現在還沒有看到，我多次的說，國家是大家的，預算是全民的，預算沒有顏色，但是藍白主導的國會卻讓114年以及來年115年的中央財政都陷入了黑暗期。","114年是審查總預算史上最混亂、刪減最多、凍結最嚴格，這是史上未見的總預算之亂，我們全民都持續的受苦，但是來年要編列也即將送出的115年總預算，我更要說是中央財政有史以來最、最黑暗的時期，而且這是史上最難編列的一次總預算，稍後我會就追加預算、韌性特別預算，跟年度新的總預算來就教於您。我要再次呼籲，國會縱使應當嚴格審查，但也要合理監督，不是胡扯硬拗，以為要癱瘓、傷害執政黨，卻是傷害了自己的國家。","今天我先跟您講文化，講文化會讓我們更優雅一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也期待我卸任幹事長之後，我可以回到文化立委的身分，去投入我最熱愛也最專業的文化政策。","首先，在2018年，吳思瑤是國會第一位倡議臺灣的國家軟實力就是文化力，要善用國際的mega event，讓臺灣的國家品牌跟上國際的賽會、賽事，讓世界看見臺灣，所以當我2018年倡議的時候，那時候我聚焦的就是優先從2020年的東京奧運，再來2024年的巴黎奧運，乃至於2025年今年的大阪世博，都讓臺灣組成文化國家隊，讓世界看見臺灣，於是當時的行政院長賴清德，他就同意拍板成為我們文化外交的新模式，因此2021年我們在東京奧運啟動的「Taiwan NOW」就是一個最好的開端。","接著在巴黎的奧運上，我們又用文化臺灣呈現臺灣的文化藝術力，也獲得世界的掌聲，它不只有表演藝術、視覺藝術、我們的策展、我們的閱讀，所有的文化人集結、邁向讓世界看到，利用運動賽會的奧運舞臺，它也是臺灣的文化盛會。","所以今年的大阪世博，我們的文化部門也是這樣雄心壯志、乘勝追擊，但是就因為在野黨惡砍、惡刪預算，而且鎖定特定的預算，就是國際的媒宣費，讓臺灣的國際宣傳沒了錢，就是形同讓臺灣的文化力、臺灣的聲音在世界被噤聲，勒住了脖子，勒住臺灣自己脖子的人是自己的立法委員、自己的國會，所以承受了惡果，今年的大阪世博就是現在8月，然後國際媒宣費被在野黨惡砍之後，文化人站出來，由楊大正、由吳念真老師發起民間募資，要推動我們前進大阪的活動，因為要強化宣傳，我們的文化藝術表演界都準備好，但沒有文化宣傳費，所以發起了民間募資，在登場的這一系列35組藝術人，超過140場的文化展演，光37小時就募資了600萬，所以已經上路三週的文化展演，在大阪獲得無限的掌聲，這是第一階段的募資。第二階段的募資，就是大阪世博未來要謝幕的時候，文化人再啟動一次的募資，到現在也有700萬民間的善款，我們要在閉幕的時候，「We TAIWAN」這個文化運動要在大阪所有的地鐵來感謝世界各國支持臺灣的力量，再一次的行銷臺灣，而國家沒有錢，被國民黨、民眾黨惡砍了，只好讓民間的文化人來募資。韓國瑜院長打算安排朝野的立委在9月份可以到大阪去見證臺灣文化力的實力展現，但我要說：院長，你不覺得國會對不起文化人嗎？國會對不起文化人嗎？當我們帶著大批跨黨派的立委要去大阪沾光的時候，國會卻是惡砍我們文化國際宣傳的元兇。我不曉得韓院長帶著朝野的立委去大阪的時候，是要抱著什麼心情？我認為國會欠文化人一個道歉，文化人站出來搶救文化預算，到現在還被國民黨的立法委員秋後算帳，進行政治的追殺，這就是一個惡果。所以我從文化的事件開始，所有的惡果都在這一張通刪939億的提案，不明就裡還砍過頭。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我能回答一句話嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：好，請回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：為了向委員學習對文化的重視，我們明年文化部的預算跟今年一樣，我堅持超過300億元，我們也達到了，這是第一個。再來，文化部明年有一個計畫是要把大阪博覽會的相關文化展演移回來臺灣……"],["吳委員思瑤：移回來，沒錯！我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：你們先去看，我們在臺灣等。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望在野黨的立委不要再為難文化了，我也支持在新年度的預算，國家支持文化軟實力，國會不要再惡砍。當然非常好，大阪這140場的文化展演，確實文化部打算讓它移回臺灣，讓臺灣人也能受惠，我絕對支持政府這樣的作法。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是不要再上演去年通刪939億、還砍過頭，還找不到名目砍，要行政院自己去調節，結果就產生了636億的這個惡果。剛剛在野黨的委員還在這裡大聲指責您，我真的覺得沒有看過這種加害者一再的譴責受害人，而當受害一方的行政團隊想方設法提出解方，也就是追加預算來解套、來挽救國家的財政及推動國家的政務的時候，現在這些在野黨的委員還在那邊轉移焦點，想要洗白自己的罪行。對於追加預算案，我們即將安排審議，也就是明後天的委員會跟周五的院會，這也是韓國瑜院長所拋出的，就讓砍過頭的預算用追加預算來恢復補回，這也是泛藍陣營地方執政的縣市首長共同的呼籲，所以我在這裡說：讓施政回歸正軌。藍白的立委如果想要洗白自己惡砍總預算的罪行，不要再擋追加預算了，除了有636億地方補助款之外，更有我剛剛提到很重要的中央施政必要的預算。","簡報上的這些項目是中央施政各部會真的需要用錢的部分，我剛剛提到的在大阪的文化行動「We TAIWAN」，我們同樣受到重傷的就是媒體宣傳費，不只對外、對國際行銷臺灣，被自己的立法委員掐住了脖子，對內當政策需要對國人進行宣導的時候，也被砍光光，怎麼做？譬如政策的宣導有什麼？風災之後要宣導，讓災民知道怎麼樣來加入政府給予的協助措施，對不對？當我們要打詐需要媒宣費告訴人民，現在政府有哪些打詐的作法，包括馬上要普發現金了，如果在野黨不要再擋韌性特別條例修正案的話，發現金的過程，這是史上花最多的一次現金，它當然需要去宣傳告訴國人怎麼執行，不要被詐騙嘛，對不對？院長給您最後的時間喊話一下：在野黨的委員，這是你們真真切切去洗白你們惡砍總預算的機會，就是支持追加預算。院長再次喊話吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：在總統指示下，我們願意而且會主動的來調整兩院互動關係，所以為了追加預算、為了特別預算及為了明年度總預算，我們會主動積極來進行溝通協調，我也希望大院給我們這個機會，但是如果牽涉到憲法的問題，那沒有什麼可以討論的。憲法的標準只有一套，所以剛剛也許我的語氣比較激動，因為委員對於憲政的秩序要瞭解，對於釋憲、對於暫時處分的功用要瞭解，才能在這裡對話。我並不願意用一種比較激烈的態度來講話，我還是誠誠懇懇地拜託大院，這一次中央政府總預算的追加，牽涉到各部會目前的困難、窒礙難行，我們更希望中央、地方一起來解決現在所遇到的財政問題。這個部分今年度我們解決了，明年度的中央政府總預算回到合理正常的朝野協商，至於我們該怎麼做，包括警消、包括軍人，如果釋憲出來的結果是這個條例沒有違憲，我們就補回來、追溯回來。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒錯、沒錯！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果違憲而我們現在發了，請問委員……"],["吳委員思瑤：怎麼退回？怎麼追回呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在發了一個違憲的執行，是立法院違憲？還是行政院違憲？還是我們共同違憲？我們都不要承擔這個責任，我是用這樣的方式跟態度，也請韓院長跟各位委員理解，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：我理解，其實院長您不用對於剛剛可能動了一點氣覺得sorry，事實上，面對這種在野黨的立委不懂憲政、不懂法律，也不懂國會基於權力分立的原則沒有立院最大這件事，在野黨的委員如果沒有辦法清楚的掌握，真的是秀才遇見兵，有理說不清！不要說是您，我在每一次朝野協商都氣到火冒三丈，但我們都在忍辱負重，我們都在為國家的前進持續地不放棄溝通。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要提高自己的修養。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，還好我們都很優雅。講到韌性特別預算，我們透過修正案挺產業、顧民生、助弱勢，也要發現金，這都是產業要的救命錢，更是弱勢期待的及時雨。為了讓違憲成為合憲，我們提出特別條例的修正案，預算增加到5,900億，我非常期待本週五讓這個史上最長也最沒有意義的延會至少交出起碼合格的成績單，就是讓韌性特別條例的修正案能夠順利通過，我相信韓院長也會做出努力來進行朝野協商。如果8月底能夠讓特別條例違憲成為合憲，立法院通過之後，9月就可以編出預算、送出預算至國會審查，最快10月可望來執行相關的預算。挺產業、顧民生，發現金、助弱勢，這是我們共同的期待，希望藍、白的立委不要再找任何的方式做出為反對而反對的作為。","我們對於預算提出調整，因為需要擴大加碼挺弱勢跟支持產業，我非常不能接受一件事，在當中有一筆200億強化台電電力設施的預算，這200億是用在全臺灣的產業園區，乃至於工業區，要協助產業能夠有穩定的供電，以更強韌的電網韌性來幫助產業的發展。但是目前為止，據說在野黨，尤其是民眾黨的委員，似乎磨刀霍霍不給這筆預算。吳思瑤來自臺北市，北士科是北臺灣科技廊帶最後一塊拼圖，也是我們期待輝達可以進駐於此。何況柯文哲前市長一再把北士科當作他的政績，但事實上我要說這是郝龍斌市長任內就奠下的基礎，包括吳思瑤擔任市議員時一起來催生的。現在這200億被民眾黨的委員揚言要砍了，我希望不是事實，那麼對於北士科的發展、對於輝達的進駐，乃至於其他臺灣的工業區、產業區的產業需求就會大受傷害。所以輝達落腳北士科，除了黃仁勳說請蔣萬安市長加把勁，我也希望藍、白的立委不要為反對而反對。最後的時間，請您來進行說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，關於台電的這個預算，我已經請他們啟動全國電纜地下化的評估，他們會在初期把這些評估，甚至選定一些發電所需要技術可行的，先行做一些工作出來，所以這個預算如果通過，早日朝電纜地下化、電纜韌性安全來做，不僅臺北受益、全國受益。"],["吳委員思瑤：請在野黨的委員支持台電電網韌性強化預算，這200億是全臺灣的產業園區、工業區所需要的，是我們因應美國關稅衝擊，我們挺產業、扶植產業非常重要的珍貴預算，我也希望不要為難北士科，不要成為北士科發展的絆腳石、不要成為輝達進駐北士科的阻礙。我再一次呼籲在野黨的委員，高抬貴手，支持韌性特別條例跟預算，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽的是來自臺中的一群鄉親朋友，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}},{"id":"163616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e79022530a4dd902d45d7691804860db32efc647bf34d2ac095c9afa05eb447b671b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:33:11 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刪減很多預算"},{"start":147.27,"end":152.268,"text":"你很多都回編耶我統計你的七個單位回編的這個金額啊"},{"start":153.757,"end":182.977,"text":"是我們砍掉的超過百分之五十七十個七個單位喔超過五成喔還有三個單位竟然超過百分之百這三大違法你怎麼還敢送呢未來在實質審查的時候也請委員耐心聽聽各部會面臨的困難讓他們能夠有機會表達委員你也是預算的專家你真的認為立法院可以編一個預算要行政院增加預算嗎"},{"start":184.557,"end":210.287,"text":"法律案通過當然可以啊那怎麼可以這樣說來我先問你三個來來來憲法跟預算法的規定都不是如此你如果經過了兩次大罷免大失敗你都完全不像那種調整的你就繼續再大失敗下去不只明年底的縣市長會輸你們總統大選會輸掉如果兩院的權責一直無法理清的話那不是任何一次投票決定的憲法"},{"start":212.489,"end":215.255,"text":"憲法不是任何一個投票可以決定的除非修憲"},{"start":218.442,"end":233.456,"text":"你很有可能是中華民國啊有史以來第一個違憲而且一直違法不願意好好編列依法編列預算的行政院長行政機關認為有違憲之餘送請大法官解釋申請暫時處分這是憲法賦給我們的權利跟責任沒有違憲之餘那你釋憲之前"},{"start":242.964,"end":268.863,"text":"大法官還會議還沒有做裁決之前你依法行政立法院通過的法案你有沒有執行我有申請暫時處分你有執行嗎我有申請暫時處分我剛剛講的軍人的加薪剛剛講的警消的所得替代率提高委員你顯然還不瞭解暫時處分的目的你已經過了你為什麼沒有執行呢你顯然還不瞭解暫時處分的目的來來來 我們談三個很基本的原則啦看看你的法治觀念來 等一下我問你法例經過立法院三途通過"},{"start":271.074,"end":277.004,"text":"總統公告立即生效以後行政院 包括行政院長你們義務依法律來辦理"},{"start":278.595,"end":308.167,"text":"我認為有違憲之餘我申請釋憲申請暫時處分我們就能夠暫時停在這個階段第一個你認為是對的你要執行第二個我沒有認為對的要執行你不要誤會我的答覆你不要誤會我的答覆不是你誤會我的答覆這樣不行如果行政院行政院不依法辦理是不是過程違法我有申請釋憲跟暫時處分第三個如果行政院向"},{"start":308.991,"end":327.64,"text":"總院長講的 你覺得有違憲之疑你是不是應該依照憲政程序 你要先依法執行顯然委員不知道暫時處分的效率是什麼有暫時處分嗎我有申請暫時處分有嗎 有暫時處分嗎我有申請你申請 有啊 但我會有...有暫時處分嗎沒有暫時處分前你要不要執行"},{"start":332.497,"end":343.803,"text":"還沒暫時處問之前 你要不要執行如果我們對中華民國憲法相關程序都認識不清的話你真的問你回答嘛 一定沒有暫時處問吧你要不要執行 驚人加薪"},{"start":344.946,"end":372.244,"text":"警消人員退休所得替代率提高目前有沒有暫時處分暫時處分就是暫時停止現在的新的制度我們停在這裡等大法官就暫時處分做準駁之後我們才能進到下一步否則我請問委員如果制限出來是一個違憲的那麼我們發了是你違憲還是我違憲如果我們發了你是中華民國有史以來第一個"},{"start":373.41,"end":398.766,"text":"第一個這樣做的你也是第一個委員立法院114年來只要是立法院通過總統公告的馬上就執行了全中華民國有史以來前無古人後無來者有一個著容態你也是第一個你也是第一個不了解暫時處分的委員你也是第一個院長接下來我跟你講上次有解決方法的啦您在講636億是"},{"start":402.278,"end":430.913,"text":"以前2002年那時候行政院長叫張進雄張進雄 你的前輩嘛 對不對那一年一樣立法院通過三讀以後要求他要自行刪減比636億還多耶658億那時候中央政府總預算只有現在差不多一半一兆五千多億人家張進雄透過朝野協商之後"},{"start":431.943,"end":451.09,"text":"人家就可以做啊沒有像你去砍了地方的一般補助款然後到今天送到立法院來的追加案還把地方政府把人民當成弱票要立法院去附贖金張委員你已經自己講出答案了經過草野協商之後有跟行政院協商嗎有嗎"},{"start":452.911,"end":480.325,"text":"協商是被你們破壞的從萬年總召柯建民你們三長跟整個黨團還有協商嗎沒有協商就可以大軍壓境嗎韓院長在主持會議的時候要朝野協商你們連主計長都不敢來耶中華民國有洗了朝野協商主計長財政部長要在被你們下令不能來立法院內的朝野協商發生困難就可以將行政院的意見完全不顧嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":482.606,"end":511.789,"text":"你們也不能完全不尊重立法院嘛所以我希望朝野協商第一個主計長 財政部長 相關人員要在我們要跟你談要三減多少你們要去精算嘛結果你們下令他不准來你們一開始就為了大罷免天才火你們就不要他來這段完全是惡意的誤會院長我們今天是要解決問題我跟你講有更好的解決方案我們從歷史找答案嘛以前有成功的個案啊"},{"start":512.429,"end":536.703,"text":"你已經大罷免大失敗為什麼要困在那個大罷免大失敗裡面呢大罷免是公民團體所提出的不要說是我們大罷免是公民團體我們尊重人民就要有這樣的民主至上人民至上的主要的觀念在這裡不要一直說大罷免大失敗是我們提出的我們看成功的個案你是有智慧的人我相信你應該開始要調整了你不要一直陷在以前那個經驗裡面來"},{"start":539.276,"end":564.726,"text":"這個是主計處的故事你回到行政院主計總署你都可以看到這一頁這個講的是2002年那一年中央政府總議在審查的時候針對稅客收入大幅刪減了812億造成短差擴大到685億所以決議要求行政院自行檢列同耳的稅出彌補"},{"start":565.623,"end":592.501,"text":"有沒有看到那個關鍵字你的重點要畫在下一段你的重點要畫在下一段對 沒錯 你都沒有看到關鍵字也是要你自行調整嘛每一年立法院三讀通過的時候都會要求行政部門同時去做自行的調整 這是第一點我請委員繼續把下面那一段唸出來比今年的636億還多 685億那委員請把下面那一段唸出來啊來來 你來唸下面那一段唸出來啊"},{"start":593.942,"end":602.107,"text":"你下面那段啊行政院跟朝野黨團協商時提出各種可行的處理方案3月1號、12號、13號三次協商討論後兩院院長協議後3月22日簽署協議書有嗎"},{"start":609.993,"end":632.79,"text":"協商好幾次啊 韓院長就坐在上面啊韓院長主持過幾次會議韓院長為了解決這問題還進了總統府耶回來還邀集了各黨的黨團協商 怎麼會沒有協商呢韓院長已經很幫忙了 兩院院長協議後3月22日簽署協議書 有嗎院長你不要扭曲事實喔這個是你寫的喔 今天主席長來 主席長來坐在這邊 這是你的喔來來 你看 我先給你看"},{"start":634.071,"end":660.692,"text":"主席長我講的話主席長有聽進去嘛所以後來主席長參考了2002年的個案齊凱那時候也提出來所以後來主席長給你做了三個建議案對不對他說姐姐這636億很簡單嘛第一個山寨席什麼叫山寨席就是2002年用的方法嘛對啊我也同意主席長的點頭他有聽進去朝野協商有功效是你不採用"},{"start":661.472,"end":676.392,"text":"2002年的成功經驗也不採用主計程有良心的經驗你這樣有記事實嗎要在立法院繼續說謊你自己拿出來的影片裡面的文字你自己不在意你只念出那一段"},{"start":677.193,"end":703.693,"text":"你只有頭沒有尾這樣的諮詢不行的啦我現在跟你講有草野協商不是嗎有兩院院長協商嗎有兩院院長簽字同意嗎那個 院長你就繼續留在那個大失敗裡面硬拗的那個過程我留在你的資料裡面經過以前有成功的個案而且草野協商 主席也跟你提了你就依照2002年看清楚嘛36億馬就解決了結果不是報告委員 我說明一下"},{"start":704.193,"end":719.506,"text":"沒有沒有 讓我講 時間有限要篩檢再洗 但是財政部是表示有困難所以才會這個測下來 是這樣因為他本身沒辦法 636對他來講他到7月他就付不出來你用以前成功個案 把再洗 以前"},{"start":720.347,"end":738.225,"text":"可能是降低 或者是延後 你就可以解決問題嘛韓院長那麼辛苦 還找大家來協商 本來是一個很好的成果沒關係 我今天不跟你爭辯這個我現在跟你講說 以前張進雄行 我不相信卓榮泰不行啦我也可以 兩院院長同意就可以不可能現在的戴清德不行張委員 兩院院長同意就可以 有嗎兩院院長同意就可以 有嗎"},{"start":741.488,"end":754.6,"text":"你有提出用再洗嗎沒有耶 你就去砍了一般補助款耶你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎不只是私能耶 你叫私德耶這也是社會福利的預算基礎建設的預算教育的預算你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎"},{"start":758.55,"end":784.256,"text":"所以你後來有草野協商嘛 說不聽草野協商主席都提案子 你就照這樣做你們內部協商困難 你不能就讓行政院接受沒關係 你摸著良心 這錢你會做公平來 剛剛講的是你該送過來的 另外一個我該送的我都有送你看你送過來的是什麼不該送的636億堅持要送 該送的不送"},{"start":785.762,"end":805.168,"text":"金人加薪這個事情你看金人你送過來金人有加值你周榮泰想要怎麼做都可以對不對立法院通過你就是不願意做加值你一句話你就做了然後立法院通過幫金人一個月加薪三萬塊錢你偏偏就不做這是怎樣"},{"start":806.104,"end":833.204,"text":"你有沒有考慮到憲法的程序你有考慮到國家的財政跟立法院還有所有你有考慮到所有公務人員的衡平性嗎我們加急量力而為而且循序漸進你有考慮到所有公務員的衡平性跟公平性嗎而且不只是金人警察人員 消防人員 海巡 移民署"},{"start":835.209,"end":847.279,"text":"你提復一案你提了復一案你又失敗你今年追加你也不編115年也不編追加預算你腦袋裡面眼睛裡面有法治嗎"},{"start":848.407,"end":873.243,"text":"你把憲法放在哪裡 把法律放在哪裡如果追加預算是一個法定可以走的程序那我們是依照這個程序 懇請委員就各部會現在自然難行執行業務困難之處 能夠再跟委員拜託請可委員來執行我只跟你講 你繼續留在以前那個你再硬啊 繼續再大失敗啦好 另外一個大問題你這是回編的預算"},{"start":874.838,"end":892.606,"text":"不只是嚴重違反預算法預算法裡面四項才可以追加預算的你今天送來的幾乎都不是我統計了一下七個單位內政部被刪的預算回編追加率將近100%95國防部75行政院327農業部"},{"start":903.174,"end":916.288,"text":"超過54%環境部超過597個機關立法院砍掉了你全部把它補回來 補超過一半還有三個機關竟然還超過100%行政院327%外交部151%海委會139% 院長"},{"start":926.155,"end":943.809,"text":"你眼裡面有憲法有立法院嗎 有人民嗎立法院負責審查預算結果立法院砍掉了你全部把他追回來我們是爭取再一次機會讓各委員聽聽各部會的困難以後你們掙錢換成是其他黨的時候我看你們當在議長怎麼辦最重要比槍聲為內我們要認證憲法 尊重法治法 院長在議總統已經講了 行政立法不要再叫我再講了今天我跟你講了"},{"start":956.701,"end":960.949,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時33分）謝謝韓院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長，經歷了兩次大罷免、大失敗之後，賴總統有特別提，他說要做四大調整，包括行政跟立法要調整，對不對？結果看了你們送來的中央政府總預算追加預算案都沒有改、沒有調整，至少有三大違法，第一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：它就是一個調整。"],["張委員啓楷：有調整嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：能夠把636億……"],["張委員啓楷：我在想是賴清德總統騙大家……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果能夠把636億追加回來……"],["張委員啓楷：還是卓院長本來請辭了以後來不及改？"],["卓院長榮泰：把636億追加回來，那就是一種我們善意的調整，我們希望從此開始，審查預算大家平心靜氣、依法論事，刪減預算絕對應該，但是要合理，而且重大的要兩院來協商，過去立法院都是如此，未來的立法院我充滿信心。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長，你還是這樣硬碰硬，然後再狡辯的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是硬碰硬。"],["張委員啓楷：你都不做改變，人民會問，賴總統對大家講的調整，包括行政、立法的互動要調整，是真的嗎？還是本來已經請辭了，你根本就沒準備要調呢？你今天送來的至少有三大問題，本來都應該改的啊！民眾已經清清楚楚透過選票，而且很呼應你說的，第一個，該編列的要加進去，軍人的加薪、警消人員的退休所得替代率，結果你不加，不該編的又編進來，636億，立法院已經要求你去統刪了，你硬要把它塞進來，還把地方政府、把人民當作……第三個更嚴重了，立法院三讀通過刪減的很多預算，很多你都回編了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是請求……"],["張委員啓楷：我統計有7個單位回編的金額是我們砍掉的超過50%，7個單位喔，超過五成喔！還有3個單位竟然超過百分之百！這三大違法，你怎麼還敢送呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來在實質……"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣有做到賴總統說的要調整嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員，未來在實質審查的時候，也請委員耐心聽聽各部會面臨的困難，讓他們能夠有機會表達。委員，你也是預算的專家，你真的認為立法院可以編一個預算要行政院增加預算嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：法律案通過當然可以啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：怎麼可以這樣做？"],["張委員啓楷：預算審查當然也可以啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：那你就不是預算專家了。"],["張委員啓楷：來，我先問你三個，來、來、來……"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法跟預算法的規定都不是如此。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長，你經過了兩次大罷免大失敗，卻完全不像賴總統所說的要調整，你就繼續再大失敗下去，不只明年底的縣市長會輸，你們總統大選會輸掉，就看人民怎麼制裁你。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果兩院的權責一直無法釐清的話，那不是……"],["張委員啓楷：你是學法律的嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：那不是任何一次投票可以決定的憲法。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你是法律系畢業的。"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法不是任何一個投票可以決定的，除非修憲。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長，你很有可能是中華民國有史以來第一個違憲，而且一直違法、不願意好好依法編列預算的行政院長，前無古人，後無來者！"],["卓院長榮泰：行政機關認為有違憲之虞送請大法官解釋，聲請暫時處分，這是憲法賦給我們的權利跟責任，沒有違憲之虞。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，那你釋憲之前，大法官會議還沒有作裁決之前，你依法行政，立法院通過的法案，你要不要執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有聲請暫時處分。"],["張委員啓楷：你有執行嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有聲請暫時處分。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛講的軍人的加薪、剛剛講的警消所得替代率提高……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你顯然不了解暫時處分的目的。"],["張委員啓楷：已經通過了，你為什麼沒有執行呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：你顯然不了解暫時處分的目的。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，來、來、來，我們談三個很基本的原則，看看你的法治觀念。第一個，我問你，法律經過立法院三讀通過，總統公告立即生效以後，行政院，包括行政院長有沒有義務依法律來辦理？"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為有違憲之虞……"],["張委員啓楷：有嘛！第二個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我聲請釋憲、聲請暫時處分，我們就能夠暫時停在這個階段。"],["張委員啓楷：這是第三個問題，我問你。好，第一個，你認為是對的，你要執行。第二個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有認為是對的要執行。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，如果行政院……"],["卓院長榮泰：你不要誤會我的答復。"],["張委員啓楷：看題目啦！看題目啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：你不要誤會我的答復，不是，你誤會我的答復，這樣不行！"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，如果行政院不依法辦理，是不是構成違法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有聲請釋憲跟暫時處分。"],["張委員啓楷：第三個，如果行政院像卓院長講的，你覺得有違憲之虞，你是不是應該依照憲政程序要先依法執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：顯然委員不知道暫時處分的效力是什麼。"],["張委員啓楷：有暫時處分嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有聲請暫時處分。"],["張委員啓楷：有嗎？有暫時處分嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我有聲請。"],["張委員啓楷：你聲請，有嗎？大法官會議有暫時處分嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：它還沒有做出決定啊！它有決定……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有暫時處分前，你要不要執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們這樣……"],["張委員啓楷：還沒有暫時處分之前，你要不要執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們對中華民國憲法相關程序都認識不清的話……"],["張委員啓楷：你針對問題回答嘛！院長，目前沒有暫時處分嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：暫時處分就是……"],["張委員啓楷：你要不要執行？軍人加薪、警消人員退休所得替代率提高目前有沒有暫時處分？沒有嘛，對不對？你是不是要執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：暫時處分就是暫時停止現在新的制度，我們停在這裡，等大法官就暫時處分做准駁之後，我們才能進到下一步，否則我請問委員，如果釋憲出來是一個違憲的，那麼我們發了，是你違憲還是我違憲？如果我們發了……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你是中華民國有史以來第一個這樣做的。"],["卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個委員……"],["張委員啓楷：立法院114年來，只要是立法院通過、總統公告的，馬上就執行了，全中華民國有史以來前無古人、後無來者，就有一個卓榮泰！"],["卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個……"],["張委員啓楷：再這樣下去，大罷免大失敗了，還繼續這樣硬拗！"],["卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個不了解暫時處分的委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，沒關係。來，院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：你也是第一個！"],["張委員啓楷：院長，接下來我跟你講，是有解決方法的啦！你在講636億。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：以前2002年，那時候行政院長叫張俊雄，你的前輩嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那一年一樣，立法院通過三讀以後，要求他要自行刪減，比636億還多耶，685億，那時候中央政府總預算只有現在差不多一半，一兆五千多億，人家張俊雄透過朝野協商之後，人家就可以做啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有像你去砍地方的一般補助款，然後到今天送到立法院的追加案，還把地方政府、把人民當成肉票，要立法院去付贖金。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員，你已經自己講出答案了「經過朝野協商之後」，有跟行政院協商嗎？有嗎？有嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：協商是你們破壞的，從萬年總召柯建銘，你們三長有跟整個黨團好好協商嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有協商就可以大軍壓境嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：最根本的，韓院長要朝野協商在主持會議的時候，你們連主計長都不敢來，中華民國有史以來的朝野協商，主計長、財政部長要在，被你們下令不能來……"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院內的朝野協商發生困難，就可以將行政院的意見完全不顧嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，卓院長，你們也不能完全不尊重立法院……"],["卓院長榮泰：我尊重，所以我希望朝野協商啊！"],["張委員啓楷：朝野協商第一個，主計長、財政部長等相關人員要在，我們跟你談要刪減多少，你們就要去精算嘛！結果你們下令他不准來，你們一開始就為了大罷免添柴火，你們就不要讓他來，第二個，你們又推翻了整個朝野協商……"],["卓院長榮泰：這一段完全是誤解、這一段完全是惡意的誤會。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們今天是要解決問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講有更好的解決方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我們從歷史找答案，以前有成功的個案，你已經大罷免、大失敗，你為什麼要困在那個大罷免、大失敗裡面？"],["卓院長榮泰：大罷免是公民團體所提出的，不要說是我們要大罷免。"],["張委員啓楷：以前就有成功的個案，院長，我給你看……"],["卓院長榮泰：是公民團體，我們尊重人民，就要有民主至上、人民至上的主要觀念在這裡，不要一直說大罷免、大失敗是我們提出的。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們看成功的個案，你是有智慧的人，我相信你應該要開始調整了，你不要一直陷在以前那個經驗裡面。這個是主計處的故事，你回到行政院主計總處就可以看到這一頁，講的是2002年，那一年中央政府總預算審查的時候，針對稅課收入大幅刪減了812億，造成短差擴大到685億，所以決議要求行政院自行減列同額的歲出彌補。有沒有看到那個關鍵字？"],["卓院長榮泰：你的重點，委員，你的重點要畫在下一段。"],["張委員啓楷：對、對，沒錯，你都沒有看到關鍵字，也是要你自行調整嘛，每一年立法院三讀通過的時候，都會要求行政部門同時做自行的調整，這是第一個，而且……"],["卓院長榮泰：我請委員繼續把下面那一段唸出來。"],["張委員啓楷：金額比今年的636億還多，是685億……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，就把下面那一段唸出來啊！"],["張委員啓楷：來、來，你來唸，對，要協商嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：你下面那一段唸出來啊！"],["張委員啓楷：來，你說紅字嘛！你來讀。"],["卓院長榮泰：下面那一段「行政院亦於朝野黨團協商時提出各種可行之處理方案，經3月1日、12日、19日三次協商討論後，並經兩院院長協議後於3月22日簽署協議書」，有嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：協商好幾次，韓院長就在上面啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：兩院院長……"],["張委員啓楷：討論過幾次會議，韓院長為了要解決這個問題，還進了總統府耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：韓院長……"],["張委員啓楷：後來還邀集各黨黨團協商，怎麼會沒有協商呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：韓院長已經很幫忙了，「兩院院長協議後於3月22日簽署協議書」，有嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你不要扭曲事實……"],["卓院長榮泰：這是你寫的、這是你的喔！"],["張委員啓楷：今天主計長還坐這邊，我先給你看，我講的話主計長有聽進去嘛，所以後來主計長參考了2002年的個案，啓楷那時候也提出來，所以後來主計長給你做了三個建議案，對不對？他說解決這636億很簡單，第一個刪債息，什麼叫刪債息？就是2002年用的方法嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我也同意，下面那一段。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長點頭，他有聽進去，朝野協商有功效。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["張委員啓楷：是你不採用2002年的成功經驗、也不採用主計長有良心的經驗……"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得張委員，你這樣的質詢、你這樣子斷章取義……"],["張委員啓楷：你要繼續扭曲事實，在立法院繼續說謊……"],["卓院長榮泰：你自己拿出來的影片，裡面的文字你自己不在意，你只唸出那一段，你只有頭沒有尾，這樣的質詢不行的啦。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你唸了朝野協商，我現在跟你講有朝野協商，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有兩院院長協商嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：連主計長都聽進去了……"],["卓院長榮泰：有兩院院長簽字同意嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：院長，你就繼續留在大失敗那個硬拗的過程，我就跟你講……"],["卓院長榮泰：我留在你的資料裡面……"],["張委員啓楷：經過以前有成功的個案，而且朝野協商後主計長也跟你提了……"],["卓院長榮泰：看清楚嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：你就依照2002年，636億就解決了，結果不是。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我說明一下……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有、沒有，時間有限……"],["陳主計長淑姿：要刪減債息，但是財政部表示有困難，所以才會撤下來，它本身沒辦法，636對它來講，它到7月就付不出來……"],["張委員啓楷：你用以前成功個案，針對債息，以前可能是降低或者是延後，就可以解決問題嘛！韓院長那麼辛苦，還找大家來協商，本來是一個很好的成果，沒關係，我今天不跟你爭辯這個。我現在是跟你講說以前張俊雄行，我不相信卓榮泰不行啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我也可以，兩院院長同意就可以！"],["張委員啓楷：以前的陳水扁行，不可能現在的賴清德不行……"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員，兩院院長同意就可以，有嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：都可以喔……"],["卓院長榮泰：兩院院長同意就可以，有嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：你有提出用債息嗎？你沒有耶！你就去砍了一般補助款……"],["卓院長榮泰：你有給我們機會嗎？你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：你不只是失能，你這是失德耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：那是社會福利的預算、基礎建設的預算、教育的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：所以後來有朝野協商嘛！講不聽！朝野協商主計長都提案子，你就照這樣做，你不這樣做……"],["卓院長榮泰：你們內部協商困難，不能就讓行政院接受嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：沒關係、沒關係，你摸著良心，這全民會做公評。剛剛講的是你該送過來的，好，另外一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我該送的我都有送……"],["張委員啓楷：你看今年你送過來的是什麼，不該送的636億堅持要送，該送的不送，軍人加薪這個事情，你看今年你送過來軍人有加給，你卓榮泰想要怎麼做都可以，對不對？立法院通過的，你就是不願意送，加給你一句話你們就做了，然後立法院通過幫軍人一個月加薪3萬塊錢，你偏偏就不做，這是怎樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：你有沒有考慮到憲法的程序？"],["張委員啓楷：你有尊重立法院？有尊重憲法嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：你有考慮到國家的財政跟立法院，還有所有公務人員的衡平性嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：你的加給就沒有財政問題？你的加給就沒有財政問題？立法院通過的就有財政問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的加給量力而為，而且循序漸進，你有考慮到所有公務員的衡平性跟公平性嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：而且不只是軍人……"],["卓院長榮泰：不要轉移話題！"],["張委員啓楷：警察人員、消防人員、海巡、移民署，你提覆議案！你提了覆議案，你又失敗，今年追加你也不編，115年也不編，你什麼意思啊？你腦袋裡面、你眼睛裡面有法治嗎？你把憲法放在哪裡？把法律放在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果追加預算是一個法定可以走的程序，我們是依照這個程序，懇請委員就各部會現在窒礙難行、執行業務困難之處，能夠再跟委員拜託，請委員來支持……"],["張委員啓楷：你出一張嘴啦！立法院三讀通過的條文及憲法都不想遵守就對了？我就跟你講，你繼續留在以前，你再硬拗繼續大失敗啦！","好，另外一個大問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：你只有這一句話啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你這次回編的預算不只是嚴重違反預算法，預算法裡面四項才能追加預算，你今天送來的，幾乎都不是。我統計了一下7個單位，內政部被刪的預算，回編追加將近100%、國防部75%、行政院327%、農業部超過54%、環境部超過59%，7個機關，立法院砍掉的你全部把它補回來，補超過一半！還有3個機關竟然超過100%，行政院327%、外交部151%、海委會139%。院長，你眼裡面有憲法、有立法院嗎？有人民嗎？立法院負責審查預算，結果立法院砍掉的，你全部把它追回來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是爭取再一次機會讓委員聽聽各部會的困難……"],["張委員啓楷：你們這樣大罷免、大失敗，以後你們政權換成其他黨的時候，我看你們當在野黨怎麼辦。最重要以蒼生為念嘛！我們要尊重憲法、尊重法治，院長，賴總統已經講了，行政、立法要調整……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有調整，所以送來請大院理性討論……"],["張委員啓楷：不要再焦土戰爭也不要硬拗，今天我跟你講的三大違失、三大違法，先把它補起來，該編的就要編，不該編的就不要編，好不好？尊重憲法，我希望你不管當多久，人民會記得你是一個守法、尊重憲法的院長，好不好？謝謝，以蒼生為念。"],["卓院長榮泰：我願意跟一個守法的委員對話。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長答詢。","接下來請吳思瑤委員質詢，請洪孟楷委員準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":215,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","王鴻薇","張啓楷","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","許宇甄","陳亭妃","賴士葆","賴惠員","翁曉玲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":159,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「114年度中央政府總預算追加預算\n案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00004"}}},{"id":"163615","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163615","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/97036d915349e790cfea0e64f32ca1347691804860db32efc647bf34d2ac095c058d39ead7a38cca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:16:44 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院長好在談預算之前先談執行預算的人"},{"start":27.54,"end":53.169,"text":"您昨天有講內閣改組大概這個禮拜完成那我想請問一下內閣改組的幅度那這次會撤換的相關的閣員包含國安的部分會超過五人以上嗎包含國安喔國安不在我們現在所謂內閣的名單當中那是府方在處理的那會超過五人以上嗎"},{"start":55.535,"end":77.241,"text":"有的是首長們自行因為自己的原因提出了我知道有人提此自信有人不願意提此自信如果是從部長加次長的話我認為人數超過五人超過五人有可能超過十人以上嗎這個十人以下五人以上"},{"start":79.118,"end":86.23,"text":"數字不代表一切啦我們希望如果有熱誠進來團隊服務的未來是要展現出院長我為什麼問這個問題"},{"start":88.57,"end":107.749,"text":"因為其實內閣改組的幅度外界是非常關切的尤其你們已經相繼提出包含今天的追加預算還有明年度的總預算因為預算是人在執行的所以為什麼要問內閣改組的幅度因為今天我們看到的預算書"},{"start":109.571,"end":126.893,"text":"是由我們現在坐在這邊的閣員們所提出來的他不能說他沒有看過這些預算書是不是那但是呢我不曉得會走多少人也就是說也許你提了預算書最後不是你在執行所以那個改組的幅度是重要的但是呢"},{"start":128.066,"end":153.839,"text":"最近您也可以看到除了賴總統他的民調滿意度已經跌破三成以下包含您本身以及內閣的滿意度也跌到三成以下所以我想請問院長我想請問院長除了內閣改組之外現在我們所提出來的追加預算我們如果按照你們所提出來878億也就是"},{"start":157.521,"end":178.175,"text":"如果全數給你們的話那麼今年度的預算就突破了三兆突破了三兆原來就已經是歷史新高現在又變成歷史新高而且突破三兆所以我想請問院長在我們這些追加預算裡面"},{"start":179.653,"end":188.244,"text":"您認為你提出了什麼樣的有感的政策讓人民會有感會提升你們的施政滿意度"},{"start":189.636,"end":215.528,"text":"就是照這次在大院審查今年度中央政權總預算的時候這個通山部分的939億那讓行政院要自行刪減636億這個部分確實讓大家都有感而且是非常不好的感覺不論是中央或是我們後來沒有辦法 左撿地方你刪掉地方補助款大家人民才覺得不好啊"},{"start":216.528,"end":232.267,"text":"大家感覺才不好啊中央如果自行刪減636億將會造成所有的預算變成自力破碎很多的部會要被刪減到無法執行我想這也不是當初包括委員您大院所有委員所希望看到院長啊"},{"start":232.768,"end":248.36,"text":"你們還在追究636億其實我要告訴你在你878億裡面待會我會跟你說哪些部分基本上我們會支持但是我現在要跟你討論的是"},{"start":249.801,"end":272.626,"text":"你們現在除了那有幾項是因為新增或者因為法定就是我們立法院通過的法令通過的預算之外你們有關於各部會所提出來的預算包含外交部一共提出來了142億的追加碼對不對包含外交部啊"},{"start":273.922,"end":297.907,"text":"外交部沒有提出142億我就說各部會再加上外交部外交部11億嘛對不對然後你其他各部會是132億嘛院長我不曉得你有沒有看這些預算這些所有的這個132億的預算幾乎大部分都是什麼呢他不是新的證物"},{"start":299.022,"end":319.396,"text":"他不是新的政務原來的預算經刪減之後他無法支應這個政務的執行被立法院刪減之後呢你們現在來搞復活賽嘛就先來搞一個復活賽因為你不爽不爽被刪嘛然後現在要求把它編回來這沒有什麼不爽所以我才問這個追加預算"},{"start":325.14,"end":344.292,"text":"這些132億哪一個符合預算法裡面的追加預算預算法它是說如果你執行證物有新的事項發生執行有重大事件重大事件發生那這個就是因為重大事件譬如說像罷免嘛公投吧"},{"start":345.336,"end":373.902,"text":"这个是属于预算法追加预算符合其他都是你这130岁你刚讲了绝大部分都是你们在114年度总预算送到立法院来被我们删除之后你现在又要求重编回来请问一下他有什么第一个他有重大事故吗第二个他是新设计官吗第三个他是因为法律而增加吗都不是"},{"start":374.762,"end":393.228,"text":"所以基本上他們並不符合預算法裡面應該追加預算的連主計長上來我看他都在那邊手忙腳亂所以院長啊我剛剛講你們現在說要調整你們的步伐調整你們的政策"},{"start":396.488,"end":420.624,"text":"賴總統說從現在開始要民生優先 經濟優先 弱勢優先 青年優先我沒有看過這樣自贈己罪的啦這代表什麼呢 你們之前這些都沒有優先不是這樣的邏輯當然是 你為什麼現在說我要調整這些要優先 所以你之前這些都沒有優先你們之前都在搞政治囉 你們之前都在搞鬥爭囉沒有沒有 這個委員不要這樣誤會總統的意思"},{"start":422.205,"end":425.506,"text":"所以在你們這878億裡面我剛才講譬如說你對於地方補助款的636億基本上我們會支持因為現在地方政府嗷嗷待哺有些地方政府都在舉債很可憐"},{"start":448.448,"end":477.498,"text":"所以我們不得不支持你進法補償條例是因為立法院通過的預算所以我們也可以支持還有包含國軍的加薪我們也可以支持但是其他有關的一些項目你讓我們怎麼支持呢我剛講公投的預算也要支持我待會就要講這個事你們很扯"},{"start":478.7,"end":497.237,"text":"你要讲公投公投和罢免我先讲这132亿里面绝大部分都是回补回编过来我还没讲完回编过来我刚讲想搞复活赛吗比如说内政部他的回编率高达九成以上"},{"start":498.098,"end":516.733,"text":"海委會高達八成以上那我想請問我就很仔細看這預算書囉有什麼我們輸漏的當時給你刪掉的譬如你們那時候在這個預算啊藍白亂山預算一大堆的謠言我就請問了內政部說我們把房屋租金刪掉了有回編回來嗎有嗎來"},{"start":520.396,"end":535.358,"text":"劳动部说我们把育儿留职津贴删掉了有吗劳动部里面的预算书里面有吗张尊涵马上叫当你的秘书长说我们把中小企业的预算都删掉了请问一下预算书里面有吗有删吗"},{"start":536.255,"end":561.391,"text":"當初也許是因為有些是凍結那我們在論書的時候把凍結跟刪除 院長要不要道歉如果是因為 院長要不要道歉如果我們論刪 請問為什麼這件預算書裡面沒有編回來為什麼沒有 你要不要道歉報告委員 如果是因為凍結而誤戳為刪除那這一點我表示道歉但是凍結之後有回復的部分我也表示感謝"},{"start":562.961,"end":576.974,"text":"所以當時有多少造謠 尤其在這邊包含內政部長 勞動部長 財政部長你們造謠多少 如果當時有一扇玉山 你們應該別回來確實有很多是三尺的我們該刪 應當刪就刪 你剛剛講公投和罷免"},{"start":588.339,"end":592.208,"text":"崩頭和罷免 請問一下我們曾經問過你們的二背經"},{"start":595.672,"end":623.905,"text":"來我們先放二倍金二倍金在8月15號二倍金裡面就已經有因應公投以及罷免的相關預算的請款請問一下為什麼又要編在追加預算是怎麼樣你們要再搞一次大罷免嗎二倍金有二倍金更需要的用途那如果這間預算能夠同意的話那這個會歸電給二倍金那二倍金他會比較完整以應不時之需謝謝委員"},{"start":624.645,"end":642.392,"text":"因為當時我們就說嘛你們搞一個罷免用的就是二倍金是救命錢你們現在害怕了來追加預算院長你也當過政治人物除了組紀長之外你們兩位都當過政治人物"},{"start":643.459,"end":660.264,"text":"你來罷免我你來罷免我現在請我把這個錢給你罷免的錢給你用納稅人的錢給你請問一下全體老百姓這都是全體納稅人的錢納稅人有讓你們搞大罷免嗎"},{"start":661.53,"end":680.738,"text":"那些人又要讓你們搞這樣鬥爭嗎然後現在你還可以誇誇其言說欸公投跟罷免的錢你們應該要給我們公投會給你公投是立法院通過的請問罷免罷免是現在從726到823你可以看到人民的選擇"},{"start":683.659,"end":709.633,"text":"台灣人民太有智慧了台灣人民太有智慧結果你現在要納稅人錢幫你付這個大罷免錢你去跟民進黨黨部要好不好你不應該去跟民進黨黨部要 跟七鳥要啊對不對 那黑熊要啊第一段是我沒有罷免你我們這個我沒有罷免你 這是第一段第一段公投是公民所發動的對不起 罷免是公民所發動的"},{"start":711.394,"end":729.283,"text":"公投是立法院所發動的在行政機關看起來都是一樣而且我認為如果以人民至上的話更不應該說立法院發動的您支持人民發動的您不支持人民發動是人民發動的嗎還是民進黨發動民進黨團天天在這邊大罷免大成功我跟你講啊罷免的錢拜託你"},{"start":738.587,"end":746.63,"text":"去跟民進黨跟民進黨去黨部去要時間暫停一下時間暫停一下我請顧立雄部長時間暫停我請顧立雄部長麻煩請國防部長備詢"},{"start":771.075,"end":785.49,"text":"委員請部長在這一次的追加預算裡面院長我跟你講你的沒宣費也全部把它編回來這個部分我直接講我們不會同意另外這兩天"},{"start":788.152,"end":809.686,"text":"國防部要求各級單位不能再用志願役加緊三萬塊再來招募人員那這裡面其實已引起很多的現役軍人的反彈或者他們的焦慮昨天還有就是我們現役軍人的眷屬來拜託我說這一筆拜託因為他們還在"},{"start":812.828,"end":828.776,"text":"養小孩能不能就能夠實現所以我想請教部長在今年非常特殊我們過去這些軍事學校常常都招不足兵員出現了問題他們的未來我們的兵員"},{"start":829.716,"end":851.764,"text":"就今年很特別清閣軍事院校報到人數創新高全部招收額滿這當然跟在立法院通過的這個加薪的法案有關係好現在呢你們不編預算請問一下部長你認為會不會重創我們現役現在一線國軍弟兄的士氣"},{"start":853.333,"end":867.069,"text":"跟委員報告我想提升國軍的待遇來照顧官兵及家軍的福利是我們慈恆一直在做事實上今年的四月一號六月一號七月一號行政院都已經合併陸續來提高"},{"start":869.472,"end":892.845,"text":"志願役的家籍 戰鬥部隊的家籍我們剛剛講你們追加預算 我們會同意我們追加預算讓院長放心就是追加這個國軍待遇的部分我們會同意但是現在是立法院所通過的你們不編預算會不會衝創國軍士氣另外 比如說像三立新聞因為為了要護航嘛 他說"},{"start":894.159,"end":898.962,"text":"軍人不是以服從為天職嗎現在阿兵哥比上班族還敢喊加薪喔部長 你同不同意這句話剛沒聽清楚 您說"},{"start":905.165,"end":933.391,"text":"他說軍人不是以服從為天職嗎現在阿兵哥比上班族還敢喊加薪嗎請問您同不同意這個話同不同意這樣的論述我想國防部的立場就是我們後續還會有相關的規劃包括我們考量部隊的人力專長任務的性質還有危險的工作危險的程度等等我們會來持續規劃那現在我想行政院有其整體的考量"},{"start":934.031,"end":946.801,"text":"就這一個您現在提到的應該是志願役三萬塊的這個加級的部分嘛那志願役三萬塊加級的部分依照行政院的指導它整體上有一個整體性的考量一個橫平性的考量院長 完全不會編這筆預算嗎"},{"start":976.774,"end":978.955,"text":"好 謝謝王宏偉委員質詢也謝謝卓院長相關部會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（9時16分）謝謝主席。先請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長好。在談預算之前，先談執行預算的人。您昨天說內閣改組大概這個禮拜會完成，所以我想請問一下內閣改組的幅度。這次撤換的相關閣員，包含國安部分在內，會超過五人以上嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：包含國安？"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：國安不在現在的內閣名單當中，那是府方在處理的。"],["王委員鴻薇：會超過五人以上嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有的是首長們因為自己的原因提出了辭呈……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，有人提辭職信，有人不願意提辭職信。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是部長加次長的話，我認為人數超過五人。"],["王委員鴻薇：超過五人？有可能超過十人以上嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：十人以下、五人以上？"],["卓院長榮泰：數字不代表一切，我們希望有熱誠進來團隊服務的，未來要展現出……"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，我為什麼問這個問題？其實對於內閣改組的幅度外界非常關切，尤其你們已經相繼提出，包含今天的追加預算，還有明年度的總預算。因為預算是人在執行的，所以我為什麼要問內閣改組的幅度？今天我們所看到的預算書，是由現在坐在這邊的閣員們所提出來的，他不能說沒有看過預算書，是不是？但是我不曉得會走多少人，也就是說，也許你提了預算書，最後卻不是你在執行，所以內閣改組的幅度是重要的。但最近您也可以看到，除了賴總統的民調滿意度已經跌破三成以下外，包含您本身以及內閣的滿意度也跌破三成以下。所以我想請問院長，除了內閣改組之外，現在所提出來的追加預算，若按照你們所提出的878億全數給你們的話，那麼今年度的預算就突破了3兆！原來就已經是歷史新高，現在又變成歷史新高，而且突破3兆！我想請問院長，在此次的追加預算裡，您認為提出了什麼樣的有感政策讓人民會有感，會提升你們的施政滿意度？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次大院在審查今年度中央政府總預算的時候，通刪部分的939億讓行政院要自行刪減636億，這個部分確實讓大家都有感，而且是非常不好的感覺，不論是中央或是我們後來沒有辦法而酌減地方……"],["王委員鴻薇：人民沒有覺得不好的感覺啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：酌減地方之後，大家……"],["王委員鴻薇：你刪掉地方補助款，人民才覺得不好啊！大家感覺才不好啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：中央如果自行刪減636億，將會造成所有的預算變成支離破碎，很多部會要被刪減到無法執行，我想這也不是當初包括委員您及大院所有委員所希望看到的。"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，你們還在追究這個636億，其實我要告訴你，在你的878億裡面，待會我會跟你說哪些部分基本上我們會支持，但是我現在要跟你討論的是，你們現在除了有幾項是因為新增或者因為法定，就是我們立法院通過的法律而要編列的預算之外，你們各部會所提出來的預算，包含外交部一共提出來了142億的追加嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：外交部？"],["王委員鴻薇：包含外交部啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：外交部沒有提出142億啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我說的是各部會再加上外交部，外交部11億嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：然後其他各部會是132億嘛！院長，我不曉得你有沒有看這些預算，所有的這132億的預算大部分幾乎都是什麼呢？並不是新的政務，不是新的政務……"],["卓院長榮泰：就是原來的預算經刪減之後無法支應政務的執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，沒錯！也就是說，被立法院刪減之後，你們現在來搞復活賽嘛！就先來搞一個復活賽，因為你不爽被刪嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：喔，不是！"],["王委員鴻薇：然後現在要求把它編回來。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這沒有什麼不爽這個問題，是不夠的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我才問，追加預算的這132億，哪一個符合預算法裡面的追加預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：預算法是說，如果執行政務時有新的事項發生，有重大事件……"],["王委員鴻薇：有新的事項嗎？已經被刪掉了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：重大事件發生，這個就是因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：重大事件，譬如說像罷免嘛、公投嘛，這個是屬於預算法中符合追加預算規定的，但你這132億的部分，你剛剛講了，絕大部分都是你們編列於114年度總預算中，送到立法院來審查時被我們刪除之後，你現在又要求重編回來，請問一下，第一個，它有重大事故嗎？第二個，它是新設機關嗎？第三個，它是因為法律而增加嗎？都不是！所以基本上這個並不符合預算法規定中應該追加預算的。連主計長上來，我看他都在那邊手忙腳亂，所以院長，我剛剛講，你們現在說要調整你們的步伐、調整你們的政策，賴總統說從現在開始要民生優先、經濟優先、弱勢優先、青年優先，我沒有看過這樣自證己罪的啦，這代表什麼呢？你們之前這些都沒有優先！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣的邏輯！不是這樣的……"],["王委員鴻薇：那當然是啊，你為什麼現在說要調整這些要優先，所以你之前這些都沒有優先……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有！"],["王委員鴻薇：你們之前都在搞政治囉！你們之前都在搞鬥爭囉！是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有！委員，不要這樣誤會總統的意思……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我時間有限，所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們說要調整的是施政的優先順序。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們追加預算的問題很多，我還有很多問題要問。所以在你們這878億裡面，我剛才有說，譬如對於地方補助款的636億，基本上我們會支持……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝、感謝！"],["王委員鴻薇：因為現在地方政府嗷嗷待哺，有些地方政府都在舉債，很可憐，所以我們不得不支持。禁伐補償條例是因為立法院通過的預算，所以我們也可以支持。還有包含警察的，對不起，是軍人……"],["卓院長榮泰：國軍。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，國軍的加薪我們也可以支持，但是其他有關的一些項目，你讓我們怎麼支持呢？我剛剛講的那132億……"],["卓院長榮泰：那公投的預算也要支持，罷免的預算也要支持……"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下，我待會就要講這個事，你們很扯，你要講公投，公投和罷免，我先講這132億裡面絕大部分都是回補、回編過來，我還沒講完，回編過來，我剛剛講了想要搞復活賽嘛！譬如內政部的回編率高達九成以上，海委會高達八成以上。我就很仔細看這個預算書囉！有什麼我們疏漏的、當時給你刪掉的，譬如你們那時候在這個預算，藍、白亂刪預算一大堆的謠言，我就請問了，內政部說我們把房屋租金刪掉了，有回編回來嗎？有嗎？勞動部說我們把育兒留職津貼刪掉了，有嗎？勞動部的預算書裡面有嗎？張惇涵馬上就要當你的秘書長，說我們把中小企業的預算都刪掉了，請問一下預算書裡面有嗎？有刪嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當初也許因為有些是凍結，那我們在論述的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有誤會？有沒有造謠？"],["卓院長榮泰：把凍結跟刪除，我們……"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，你要不要道歉？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：院長，要不要道歉？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是因……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果我們亂刪，請問為什麼這些預算書裡面沒有編回來？為什麼沒有？你要不要道歉？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，如果是因為凍結而誤說為刪除，這一點我表示道歉，但是凍結之後有回復的部分，我也表示感謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以當時有多少造謠！尤其在這邊包含內政部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長，你們造謠多少！如果當時有刪預算，你們應該編回來。"],["卓院長榮泰：並不是造謠，確實有一些是刪除……"],["王委員鴻薇：否則就是你們的失職。"],["卓院長榮泰：確實有很多是刪除的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們該刪呀！應當刪就刪。","剛剛講公投和罷免，我們先問二備金，在8月15號，二備金裡面就已經有因應公投以及罷免相關預算的請款，那請問一下為什麼又要編在追加預算，是怎麼樣？你們要再搞一次大罷免嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，二備金有二備金更需要的用途，如果追加預算能夠同意的話，這個會歸墊給二備金，那二備金會比較完整以應不時之需，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：當時我們就說，你們搞一個罷免用的就是二備金、是救命錢，你們現在害怕了來追加預算。院長，你也當過政治人物，除了主計長之外，你們兩位都當過政治人物，你來罷免我，現在請我把這個罷免的錢給你、用納稅人的錢給你。請問一下，就全體老百姓，這都是全體納稅人的錢，納稅人有讓你們搞大罷免嗎？納稅人有要讓你們這樣搞鬥爭嗎？然後現在你還可以誇誇其言說：公投跟罷免的錢你們應該要給我們。公投的會給你，公投是立法院通過的；請問就罷免，罷免是從726到823，你可以看到人民的選擇，臺灣人民太有智慧了，結果你現在要納稅人的錢幫你付這個大罷免的錢，你去跟民進黨黨部要好不好？你不應該去跟民進黨黨部要嗎？跟青鳥要啊！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我能不能兩段話來回答委員？"],["王委員鴻薇：跟黑熊要啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：第一段是我沒有罷免你，我們這個……我沒有罷免你，這是第一段。第二段，罷免是公民所發動的，公投是立法院所發動的，在行政機關看起來都是一樣。而且我認為，如果以人民至上的話，更不應該說立法院發動的您支持，人民發動的您不支持。"],["王委員鴻薇：人民發動？是人民發動的嗎？還是你民進黨發動？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然它是一個公民運動。"],["王委員鴻薇：民進黨黨團天天在這邊說大罷免，大成功。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是因為呼應公民運動、主動發動的公民運動。"],["王委員鴻薇：我跟你講，罷免的錢，拜託你去跟民進黨黨部要。"],["卓院長榮泰：就我而言，公民發動的應該勝過立法院才對啊！人民最大、人民第一。"],["王委員鴻薇：時間暫停一下，我請顧立雄部長。"],["主席：時間暫停。麻煩請國防部長備詢。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長。在這一次的追加預算裡面，院長，我跟你講，你的媒宣費也全部把它編回來，這個部分我直接講，我們不會同意。","另外，這兩天國防部要求各級單位不能再用志願役加給3萬塊來招募人員，這裡面其實已引起很多現役軍人的反彈或者焦慮。昨天還有現役軍人的眷屬來拜託我，因為他們還在養小孩，這一筆能不能夠讓其實現？所以我想請教部長，今年非常特殊，過去這些軍事學校常常都招收不足，讓我們未來的兵源出現問題，其實今年很特別，7個軍事院校報到人數創新高，全部招收額滿，這當然跟立法院通過的加薪法案有關係，但現在你們不編預算，請問一下部長，你認為這會不會重創我們現役、現在一線國軍弟兄的士氣？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，提升國軍的待遇、照顧官兵及家眷的福利，是我們持恆一直在做的。事實上，今年4月1號、6月1號、7月1號行政院都已經核定，陸續來提高志願役的加給、戰鬥部隊的加給、網路戰加給、電偵加給，還有戰航管加給，所以我們後續……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們剛剛講了，你們的追加預算，我們會同意，讓院長放心，就是追加國軍待遇的部分我們會同意，但現在是立法院所通過的，你們不編預算，會不會重創國軍士氣？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會……"],["王委員鴻薇：再來，像三立新聞為了護航，它說：「軍人不是以服從為天職嗎？現在阿兵哥比上班族還敢喊加薪嗎？」部長，你同不同意這句話？"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛沒聽清楚您說什麼。"],["王委員鴻薇：它說：「軍人不是以服從為天職嗎？現在阿兵哥比上班族還敢喊加薪嗎？」請問您同不同意這個話？同不同意這樣的論述？"],["顧部長立雄：我想國防部的立場，我們後續還會有相關的規劃，包括我們考量部隊的人力專長、任務的性質還有工作危險的程度等等，我們會來持續規劃。現在我想行政院有提整體的考量，您現在提到的應該是志願役3萬塊加給的部分。"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["顧部長立雄：關於志願役3萬塊加給的部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調整原住民足淨法補償24億元"},{"start":1874.008,"end":1897.556,"text":"原住民族保留地淨法補償條例於113年6月24日修正公佈補償標準由每公頃3萬元增調為6萬元修法後所需的經費倍增嚴重地排擠了原住民族委員會相關的業務該會勉勵地檢討仍無法全述的那邊"},{"start":1899.781,"end":1927.137,"text":"114年度當中就有所不足歷經大院以及朝野各黨團與本院多次的協調在113年11月7日會商也完備了雙方的法定程序那麼決議將循預算法第91條財政紀律法第5條的法定原則雙方協調可循財源辦理追加預算予以支應"},{"start":1928.919,"end":1940.686,"text":"第二大項是直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助款636億元以及各機關推行各項施政計畫卻有實際需要數133億元"},{"start":1944.312,"end":1964.191,"text":"大院審議110年度中央政府總預算稅出三減2076億元其中通案三減數不得低於939億元扣除已經核實計算的通案三減數303億元本院尚需自行調整三減數達到636億元"},{"start":1967.915,"end":1979.361,"text":"由於本院認為這個有自愛難行之處原於114年度2月27號已請大院來赴議那麼大院也於同年的3月12號"},{"start":1981.62,"end":1995.905,"text":"決議能維持原決議總統並在3月21號來公佈所以本院拒以執行經橫著總預算遭大院刪減1439億元已經刪減了1439億元我們自行調整刪減部分僅能勉強地予以調減對直轄市及縣市的一般性補助款"},{"start":2007.335,"end":2030.007,"text":"但考量各地方政府財務需求及前述的刪減雖經各機關嚴格控管並準決執行後能對各項施政計畫推行產生自走研究卻有需要實際支出提出追加預算第三大項是提升國軍待遇59億元"},{"start":2032.025,"end":2046.172,"text":"台灣站在全球民主防線的最前線面對日益高升的地緣政治壓力與威權勢力的威脅必須持續提升國防力量維護區域的和平跟穩定"},{"start":2047.113,"end":2076.057,"text":"因此在國防方面近年來國軍擔負的戰備任務日益繁重且受到企業徵才以及少子女化等等的影響國軍戰力造成相當衝擊加上新式武器裝備陸續的接裝成軍急需高專人才長留久用為鼓勵官兵致戰鬥部隊服役提升國軍心思待遇以穩固國防戰力"},{"start":2076.758,"end":2096.869,"text":"本願於114年4月起陸續調整志願役勤務加級戰鬥部隊加級資訊勤務加級電訊偵測官兵勤務加級以及戰航管官兵勤務加級等加級需要增加相關的經費"},{"start":2098.294,"end":2114.144,"text":"第四大項是強化外交執行量能11億元為厚實外交執行量能及加速推動拓邦鞏固邦交等工作外交部規劃提升外交人員待遇福利及駐外使館硬體設備"},{"start":2115.325,"end":2140.167,"text":"加強與友邦及友好國家在基礎建設農林漁牧業衛生醫療教育文化勞動事務社區發展等各方面的雙邊合作及擴大邀訪各國外賓繼續增加相關經費第五大項是辦理第十一屆立法委員罷免案及全國性公民投票案合計15億元"},{"start":2142.728,"end":2159.848,"text":"中央選舉委員會於114年7月26日及8月23日辦理兩次第十一屆立法委員罷免案投票依公職人員選舉罷免法第十三條規定相關選工作需經費由中央政府編列預算"},{"start":2160.689,"end":2175.852,"text":"另外大院114年5月20日也三讀通過您是否同意第三核能發電經主管機關同意確認無安全無疑慮後繼續運轉的全國性公民投票案"},{"start":2176.652,"end":2194.366,"text":"並交由中央選舉委員會辦理依中央選舉委員會委員會會議決議在114年8月23日舉行投票依公民投票法第五條規定相關選務工作所需經費由中央政府編列預算"},{"start":2195.492,"end":2219.388,"text":"以上僅就本次追加預算案的編制重點概要說明有關追加預算案的編制經過及內容將由主計總處陳主計長再做詳細報告財源籌措部分則由財政部莊部長報告考量現階段各地方政府施政及重要計畫的推動以及前述刪減在各機關"},{"start":2221.124,"end":2244.989,"text":"控管準決執行預算下仍有實際財務的需求因應新增業務及經費需求就原住民保留地淨法補償提升國軍待遇加強外交執行量能以及辦理立法委員罷免與公民投票案並同提出最佳預算案懇請各位委員鼎力支持早日通過本預算案"},{"start":2246.206,"end":2265.467,"text":"以維持政府施政量能讓各項扶國立民政策能夠繼續的順利推動也讓國軍人才能夠長留久用穩固國防戰力深化國際合作的參與讓國人能夠自由的生活得到更大的保障以上懇請 謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":2272.894,"end":2276.364,"text":"謝謝卓院長的報告接下來我們請主計處陳主計長報告"},{"start":2287.778,"end":2305.593,"text":"韓院長 江副院長 各位委員先進 大家好114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案的編制概況和主要重點左院長已經做了說明我們現在緊就追加預算案的編制過程和內容概要進一步提出報告"},{"start":2306.454,"end":2319.206,"text":"最佳預算的一個編制過程 它內容概要如下第一個114年度中央總預算經大院審查 合列稅入3兆1648億元稅出2兆9250億元 稅入稅出剩餘2398億元扣除債務還本1415億元 收支剩餘983億元"},{"start":2330.717,"end":2355.489,"text":"那第二個本次追加預算它主要的一個內容如下一 稅出部分編列878億元那主要是一 原住民委員會辦理原住民保留地淨法補償計畫的經費24億元第二個是國防部和海洋國防部主管和海洋委員會主管調整君子人員各項勤務加急"},{"start":2357.209,"end":2382.474,"text":"59億元第三個是外交部厚實外交執行能量能力加速推動拓邦鞏固邦交經費11億元第四個是中央選委會辦理第11屆立法委員罷免案及全國性公民投票手續經費15億元第五個是直轄市及縣市政府一般性補助636億元第六個是各機關推行各項"},{"start":2383.914,"end":2410.054,"text":"施政計畫卻有實際需要計有133億元主要包括一經濟部主管辦理後源調度幹管工程計畫及降低漏水率計畫等30億元第二個是內政部主管辦理生活圈道路交通系統建設計畫等29億元三數位發展部辦理數位創新研發計畫等13億元"},{"start":2411.215,"end":2424.906,"text":"第四個是農業部主管整理整體性治山防火防災大規模崩塌及不安定土砂防減災等所的經費11億元第五個是國防部辦理各項營區維運各項國內外專項訓練"},{"start":2429.85,"end":2452.462,"text":"等所需經費10億元 第六個是海洋委員會主管辦理抽件海巡艦艇潛在發展計畫等9億元第七個是衛福部外交部 文化部等主管辦理即興傳染病流行風險監控與管理第四期計畫等31億元以上稅出追加"},{"start":2454.146,"end":2472.399,"text":"總共是878億元他所需的財源全數以原預算收支剩餘來支應重上追加的結果中央114年度中央政府總預算稅入維持3兆1648億元稅出增為3兆128億元稅入稅出剩餘為1520億元扣除債務還本1415億元收支剩餘105億元以上對預算"},{"start":2484.426,"end":2500.551,"text":"中央政府總預算追加案的報告敬請各位委員女士先生會議指教並鼎力支持完成審議以上謝謝陳主席長的報告接下來我們請財政部莊部長提出報告"},{"start":2512.113,"end":2535.387,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好一百一四年度中央政府總預算追加預算案有關收入投邊情形財政部報告如下第一個就是本追加預算案的裁員規劃一百一四年度中央政府總預算原編列的稅入是三兆一千六百四十八億元稅出是兩兆九千兩百五十億元"},{"start":2536.347,"end":2558.915,"text":"稅入稅出剩餘2398億元扣除債務還本1415億元那麼收支剩餘是983億元本追加預算案稅出追加878億元將以原預算的收支剩餘數與米平無需另籌裁員"},{"start":2560.436,"end":2572.289,"text":"2014年度中央政府總預算並繼本追加預算案後稅入維持3兆1648億元那麼稅出就編列3兆128億元稅入稅出剩餘1520億元扣除債務還本數1415億元以後收支剩餘是105億元"},{"start":2581.179,"end":2588.784,"text":"第二個部分報告的是關於債務的控管在債務存量的部分截至114年7月底中央政府長期債務的餘額"},{"start":2592.431,"end":2610.563,"text":"實際數是5,879億元佔前三年度的明目GDP的平均數是24.3%至於114年底長期債務餘額的預算數是根據公債法的規定按照113年底中央政府長期債務餘額的實際數5,8580億元"},{"start":2615.446,"end":2624.209,"text":"連同歷年特別預算融資調度保留數2910億元再加計114年度預計的債務舉借數並扣除債務償還數所以預估到114年底指中央政府長期債務的餘額是6兆4768億元約佔前三年度明目GDP的平均數是27%"},{"start":2639.773,"end":2656.898,"text":"那債務流量的部分在114年度我們的債務流量目前執行的前瞻基礎建設新式戰機採購及海空戰力提升計畫的採購還有預計執行的丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建等特別條例"},{"start":2657.778,"end":2678.423,"text":"都排除了公債法第五條第七項單一年度債務流量的管制僅易後強化經濟與社會韌性以及全民共享經濟成果的特別條例沒有排除單一年度的債務流量管制那麼114年度的法定債務流量的比例因為本"},{"start":2679.523,"end":2695.452,"text":"含本追加預算的總預算以及易後特別預算都不需要舉借那麼舉借債務數就是為零因此佔總預算及易後特別預算稅出合計數的比例也為零那麼就在債務流量15%上限的範圍內"},{"start":2698.914,"end":2719.475,"text":"第二個 各個特別條例施行期間的債務流量前瞻基礎建設 新式戰機的採購以及海空戰力提升計畫採購及丹納斯等特別條例都規定施行期間的債務額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額合計數的15%"},{"start":2722.298,"end":2748.85,"text":"那麼經過計算上開各個特別條例施行期間到114年度都符合施行期間的債務流量規定最後本特別預算案將以原預算收支剩餘數給米平無需舉債那麼本部呢也會根據課專預算法財政紀律法及公共債務法等規定審慎的管控整體稅入稅出差短以及債務比例"},{"start":2749.91,"end":2773.783,"text":"兼顧財政的穩健及經濟的發展以上報告 敬請各位委員會與指教鼎力支持謝謝好 謝謝財政部莊部長的報告抱怨會 現在我們進行委員諮詢每位委員詢答時間不得超過15分鐘輪到諮詢的委員如果不在場 我們視為放棄首先 請王宏威委員諮詢張琦凱委員請準備"},{"start":2782.332,"end":2802.55,"text":"好 謝謝主席 先請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢黃委員好好 院長好在談預算之前先談執行預算的人"},{"start":2803.513,"end":2829.141,"text":"您昨天有講內閣改組大概這個禮拜完成我想請問一下內閣改組的幅度這次會撤換的相關的閣員包含國安的部分會超過五人以上嗎包含國安國安不在我們現在所謂內閣的名單當中那是府方在處理的會超過五人以上嗎"},{"start":2831.509,"end":2853.23,"text":"有的是首長們自行因為自己的原因提出了辭職我知道有人提辭職信有人不願意提辭職信如果是從部長加次長的話我認為人數超過五人超過五人有可能超過十人以上嗎十人以下五人以上"},{"start":2855.091,"end":2862.221,"text":"數字不代表一切啦我們希望如果有熱誠進來團隊服務的未來是要展現出院長我為什麼問這個問題"},{"start":2864.542,"end":2884.339,"text":"因为其实内阁改组的幅度外界是非常关切的尤其你们已经相继提出包含今天的追加预算还有明年度的总预算因为预算是人在执行的所以为什么要问内阁改组的幅度因为今天我们看到的预算书"},{"start":2885.54,"end":2902.59,"text":"是由我們現在坐在這邊的閣員們所提出來的他不能說他沒有看過這些預算書是不是但是我不曉得會走多少人也就是說也許你提了預算書最後不是你在執行所以那個改組的幅度是重要的但是"},{"start":2904.039,"end":2929.811,"text":"最近您也可以看到除了賴總統他的民調滿意度已經跌破三成以下包含您本身以及內閣的滿意度也跌到三成以下所以我想請問院長我想請問院長除了內閣改組之外現在我們所提出來的追加預算我們如果按照你們所提出來878億也就是"},{"start":2933.493,"end":2954.15,"text":"如果全數給你們的話那麼今年度的預算就突破了三兆突破了三兆原來就已經是歷史新高現在又變成歷史新高而且突破三兆所以我想請問院長在我們這些追加預算裡面"},{"start":2955.646,"end":2964.214,"text":"您認為你提出了什麼樣的有感的政策讓人民會有感會提升你們的施政滿意度"},{"start":2965.609,"end":2991.498,"text":"就是照這次在大院審查今年度中央政經總預算的時候這個通山部分的939億那讓行政院要自行刪減636億這個部分確實讓大家都有感而且是非常不好的感覺不論是中央或是我們後來沒有辦法 左撿地方你刪掉地方補助款大家人民才覺得不好啊"},{"start":2992.338,"end":3007.719,"text":"中央如果自行刪減636億將會造成所有的預算變成自力破碎很多的部會要被刪減到無法執行我想這也不是當初包括委員您大院所有委員所希望看到"},{"start":3008.74,"end":3024.35,"text":"你們還在追究636億其實我要告訴你在你878億裡面待會我會跟你說哪些部分基本上我們會支持但是我現在要跟你討論的是"},{"start":3025.791,"end":3048.626,"text":"你們現在除了那有幾項是因為新增或者因為法定就是我們立法院通過的法令通過的預算之外你們有關於各部會所提出來的預算包含外交部一共提出來了142億的追加碼對不對包含外交部啊"},{"start":3049.895,"end":3073.805,"text":"外交部沒有提出142億我就說各部會再加上外交部外交部11億嘛對不對然後你其他各部會是132億嘛院長我不曉得你有沒有看這些預算這些所有的132億的預算幾乎大部分都是什麼呢它不是新的證物"},{"start":3074.991,"end":3095.385,"text":"他不是新的政府原來的預算經刪減之後他無法支應這個政務的執行被立法院刪減之後你們現在來搞復活賽就先來搞一個復活賽因為你不爽不爽被刪然後現在要求把它編回來這沒有什麼不爽所以我才問這個追加預算"},{"start":3100.933,"end":3120.004,"text":"那些132億哪一個符合預算法裡面的追加預算預算法它是說如果你執行政務有新的事項發生執行有重大事件重大事件發生那這個就是因為重大事件譬如說像罷免 公投"},{"start":3121.308,"end":3149.911,"text":"这个是属于预算法追加预算符合其他都是你这130你刚刚讲了绝大部分都是你们在114年度总预算送到立法院来被我们删除之后你现在又要求重编回来请问一下他有什么第一个他有重大事故吗第二个他是新设计官吗第三个他是因为法律而增加吗都不是"},{"start":3150.732,"end":3169.208,"text":"所以基本上他們並不符合預算法裡面應該追加預算的連主計長上來我看他都在那邊手忙腳亂所以院長啊我剛才講你們現在說要調整你們的步伐調整你們的政策"},{"start":3172.46,"end":3196.574,"text":"賴總統說從現在開始要民生優先經濟優先 弱勢優先 青年優先我沒有看過這樣自贈己罪的啦這代表什麼呢你們之前這些都沒有優先不是這樣的邏輯當然是 你為什麼現在說我要調整這些要優先所以你之前這些都沒有優先你們之前都在搞政治囉你們之前都在搞鬥爭囉沒有沒有 這個委員不要這樣誤會總統的意思"},{"start":3198.415,"end":3222.783,"text":"所以你們追加預算問題很多我還有很多問題要問所以在你們這878億裡面我剛才講譬如說你對於地方補助款的636億基本上我們會支持因為現在地方政府熬熬待補有些地方政府都在舉債很可憐"},{"start":3224.421,"end":3253.411,"text":"所以我們不得不支持你禁法補償條例是因為立法院通過的預算所以我們也可以支持還有包含國軍的加薪我們也可以支持但是其他有關的一些項目你讓我們怎麼支持公投的預算也要支持我待會就要講這個事你們很扯"},{"start":3254.673,"end":3273.207,"text":"你要講公投公投和罷免我先講這132億裡面絕大部分都是回補回編過來我還沒講完回編過來我剛講想要搞復活賽嗎譬如說內政部他的回編率高達九成以上"},{"start":3274.088,"end":3292.785,"text":"海委會高達八成以上那我想請問我就很仔細看的預算書囉有什麼我們輸漏的當時給你刪掉的譬如你們那時候在這個預算啊藍白亂三預算一大堆的謠言我就請問了內政部說我們把房屋租金刪掉了有回編回來嗎有嗎來"},{"start":3296.368,"end":3311.331,"text":"劳动部说我们把育儿留职津贴删掉了有吗劳动部里面的预算书里面有吗张尊海马上叫当你的秘书长说我们把中小企业的预算都删掉了请问一下预算书里面有吗有删吗"},{"start":3312.228,"end":3337.364,"text":"當初也許是因為有些是凍結那我們在論述的時候把凍結跟刪除院長要不要道歉院長要不要道歉如果我們論刪請問為什麼這件預算書裡面沒有編回來為什麼沒有你要不要道歉報告委員如果是因為凍結而誤戳為刪除那這一點我表示道歉但是凍結之後有回復的部分我也表示感謝"},{"start":3338.936,"end":3352.924,"text":"所以當時有多少造謠尤其在這邊包含內政部長勞動部長 財政部長你們造謠多少如果當時有山與山你們應該別回來確實有很多是山族的我們該刪 應當刪就刪你剛剛講公投和罷免"},{"start":3364.312,"end":3368.177,"text":"崩頭和罷免 請問一下我們曾經問過你們的二背經"},{"start":3371.465,"end":3399.875,"text":"來我們先放二倍金二倍金在8月15號二倍金裡面就已經有因應公投以及罷免的相關預算的請款請問一下為什麼又要編在追加預算是怎麼樣你們要再搞一次大罷免嗎二倍金有二倍金更需要的用途那如果這間預算能夠同意的話那這個會歸電給二倍金那二倍金他會比較完整以應不時之需謝謝委員"},{"start":3400.635,"end":3418.365,"text":"因為當時我們就說你們搞一個罷免用的就是二倍金是救命錢你們現在害怕了來追加預算院長你也當過政治人物除了主計長之外你們兩位都當過政治人物"},{"start":3419.452,"end":3436.26,"text":"你來罷免我你來罷免我現在請我把這個錢給你罷免的錢給你用納稅人的錢給你請問一下全體老百姓這都是全體納稅人的錢納稅人有讓你們搞大罷免嗎"},{"start":3437.523,"end":3456.713,"text":"那些人又要讓你們搞這樣鬥爭嗎然後現在你還可以誇誇其言說公投跟罷免的錢你們應該要給我們公投會給你公投是立法院通過的請問罷免罷免是現在從726到823你可以看到人民的選擇"},{"start":3459.634,"end":3485.611,"text":"台灣人民太有智慧了台灣人民太有智慧結果你現在要納稅人錢幫你付這個大罷免錢你去跟民進黨黨部要好不好你不應該去跟民進黨黨部要跟七鳥要啊對不對 跟黑熊要啊第一段是我沒有罷免你我們這個我沒有罷免你這是第一段第一段公投是公民所發動的對不起罷免是公民所發動的"},{"start":3487.366,"end":3494.891,"text":"公投是立法院所發動的在行政機關看起來都是一樣而且我認為如果以人民至上的話"},{"start":3495.933,"end":3512.141,"text":"更不應該說立法院發動的 您支持人民發動的 您不支持人民發動 是人民發動的嗎還是民進黨發動 民進黨團天天在這邊大罷免大成功那是因為呼籲公民運動主動發動的公民運動"},{"start":3518.484,"end":3529.213,"text":"因為我而言公民發動的應該勝過立法院才對啊時間暫停我請顧立雄部長時間暫停我請顧立雄部長麻煩請國防部長備詢委員請"},{"start":3548.905,"end":3578.165,"text":"部長在這一次的追加預算裡面院長我跟你講你的沒宣費也全部把它編回來這個部分我直接講我們不會同意另外這兩天國防部要求各級單位不能再用志願役加緊三萬塊再來招募人員這裡面其實已引起很多的現役軍人的反彈或者他們的焦慮"},{"start":3579.285,"end":3585.649,"text":"昨天還有就是我們現役軍人的眷屬來拜託我說這一筆拜託因為他們還在"},{"start":3588.809,"end":3616.041,"text":"小孩能不能就能夠實現所以我想請教部長在今年非常特殊我們過去這些軍事學校常常都招不足兵員出現了問題他們的未來我們的兵員結果今年很特別清個軍事院校報到人數創新高全部招收額滿這當然跟在立法院通過的這個加薪的法案有關係"},{"start":3617.662,"end":3644.708,"text":"現在你們不編預算請問一下部長你認為會不會重創我們現役現在一線國軍弟兄的士氣跟委員報告我想提升國軍的待遇來照顧官兵及家眷的福利是我們慈恆一直在做事實上今年的4月1號 6月1號 7月1號行政院都已經核定陸續來提高"},{"start":3645.448,"end":3668.793,"text":"志願役的家籍 戰鬥部隊的家籍我們剛剛講你們追加預算我們會同意我們追加預算讓院長放心就是追加國軍待遇的部分我們會同意但是現在是立法院所通過的你們不編預算會不會沖創國軍士氣另外 比如說像三立新聞因為為了要護航嘛 他說"},{"start":3670.133,"end":3674.359,"text":"軍人不是以服從為天職嗎現在阿兵哥比上班族還敢喊加薪部長你同不同意這句話"},{"start":3679.598,"end":3707.026,"text":"剛沒聽清楚您說他說軍人不是以服從為天職嗎現在阿兵哥比上班族還敢喊加薪嗎請問您同不同意這個話同不同意這樣的論述我想國防部的立場就是我們後續還會有相關的規劃包括我們考量部隊的人力專長任務的性質還有危險的工作危險的程度等等我們會來持續規劃那現在我想"},{"start":3707.646,"end":3722.995,"text":"行政院有其整體的考量就這一個您現在提到的應該是志願役三萬塊的這個加級的部分嘛那志願役三萬塊加級的部分依照行政院的指導它整體有一個整體性的考量一個橫平性的考量院長 完全不會編這筆預算嗎"},{"start":3752.734,"end":3755.096,"text":"好 謝謝王宏偉委員質詢也謝謝卓院長相關部會首長備詢"},{"start":3760.697,"end":3762.078,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員質詢吳思瑤委員請準備謝謝韓院長請鍾院長"},{"start":3790.799,"end":3818.111,"text":"麻煩再請左院長備詢張委員好左院長經歷了兩次大罷免大失敗之後賴總統有特別提他說要做四大調整包括行政跟立法要調整對不對結果看了你們送來的這個"},{"start":3819.724,"end":3837.995,"text":"中央政府總預算的追加案都沒有改沒有調整那至少有三大違法它就是一個調整能夠把636億如果能夠把636億追加回來如果能把636億追加回來那就是一種我們善意的調整我們希望從此開始審查預算大家平心靜氣依法論事"},{"start":3850.843,"end":3878.341,"text":"三節預算絕對應該但是要合理而且重大的要跟兩院來協商我們說過去立法院都是如此未來的立法院我充滿信心你還是這樣硬碰硬不是硬碰硬不是硬碰硬你都不做改變人民會問賴總統對他講的調整包括行政立法的步驟要調整是真的嗎還是本來已經請辭了你根本就沒準備要調你今天送來至少有三大問題本來都應該改的"},{"start":3879.298,"end":3907.366,"text":"民眾已經清清楚楚透過選票而且很呼應你說 第一個該編列要加進去 驚人的加薪警消人員退休的守得替代力結果你不加這個不該編的又編進來636億立法院已經要求你去統三了你硬要把它塞進來還把地方政府 把人民當作票第三個更嚴重了立法院三讀通過 刪減很多預算"},{"start":3909.232,"end":3911.479,"text":"你很多都回編耶我統計你七個單位回編的這個金額啊"},{"start":3915.703,"end":3944.943,"text":"是我們砍掉的超過百分之五十七十個 七個單位喔超過五成喔還有三個單位竟然超過百分之百這三大違法你怎麼還敢送咧你這樣做到賴總統說的你要調整嗎未來在實質審查的時候也請委員耐心聽聽各部會面臨的困難讓他們能夠有機會表達委員你也是預算的專家你真的認為立法院可以編一個預算要行政院增加預算嗎"},{"start":3946.523,"end":3970.514,"text":"法律案通過當然可以啊預算審查當然也可以啊來我先問你三個憲法跟預算法的規定都不是如此你如果經過了兩次大罷免大失敗你都完全不像在這種調整的你就繼續在大失敗下去不只明年底的縣市長會輸你們總統大選會輸掉如果兩院的權責已經無法理清的話那不是任何一次投票決定的憲法"},{"start":3974.457,"end":3976.921,"text":"憲法不是任何一個投票可以解決定的除非修憲"},{"start":3980.404,"end":3995.418,"text":"你很有可能是中華民國有史以來第一個違憲而且一直違法不願意好好編列依法編列預算的行政院長前無古人話無來者行政機關認為有違憲之餘送請大法官解釋申請暫時處分這是憲法賦給我們的權利跟責任沒有違憲之餘那你釋憲之前"},{"start":4004.907,"end":4030.821,"text":"大法官還會議還沒有做裁決之前你依法行政立法院通過的法案你有沒有執行我有申請暫時處分你有執行嗎我有申請暫時處分我剛剛講的軍人的加薪剛剛講的警消的所得替代率提高委員你顯然不瞭解暫時處分的目的已經過了你為什麼沒有執行呢你顯然不瞭解暫時處分的目的來來來我們談三個很基本的原則啦看看你的法治觀念法律經過立法院三途通過"},{"start":4033.013,"end":4038.966,"text":"總統公告立即生效以後行政院 包括行政院長你們義務依法律來辦理"},{"start":4040.558,"end":4068.355,"text":"我認為有違憲之餘我申請釋憲申請暫時處分我們就能夠暫時停在這個階段第一個你認為是對的你要執行第二個我沒有認為對的要執行你不要誤會我的答覆你不要誤會我的答覆不是你誤會我的答覆這樣不行如果行政院行政院不依法辦理是不是過程違法我有申請釋憲跟暫時處分第三個如果"},{"start":4069.591,"end":4088.061,"text":"行政院像周院長講的你覺得有違憲之疑你是不是應該依照憲政程序你要先依法執行顯然委員不知道暫時處分的效率是什麼我有申請暫時處分我有申請他還沒有做決定沒有暫時處分前你要不要執行"},{"start":4093.579,"end":4105.775,"text":"還沒暫時處分之前 你要不要執行如果我們對中華民國憲法相關程序都認識不清的話你真的問題回答嘛 一定沒有暫時處分吧你要不要執行 金人加薪"},{"start":4106.909,"end":4134.213,"text":"警消人員退休所得替代率提高目前有沒有暫時處分暫時處分就是暫時停止現在的新的制度我們停在這裡等大法官就暫時處分做準駁之後我們才能進到下一步否則我請問委員如果釋憲出來是一個違憲的那麼我們發了是你違憲還是我違憲如果我們發了你是中華民國有史以來第一個"},{"start":4135.373,"end":4160.65,"text":"第一個這樣做的你也是第一個委員立法院114年來只要是立法院通過總統公告的馬上就執行了全中華民國有史以來前無古人後無來者有一個著容態你也是第一個你也是第一個不了解暫時處分的委員你也是第一個院長接下來我跟你講上次有解決方法的啦你在講636億"},{"start":4164.224,"end":4192.884,"text":"以前2002年那時候行政院長叫張進雄張進雄 你的前輩嘛 對不對那一年一樣立法院通過三讀以後要求他要自行刪減比636億還多耶658億那時候中央政府總預算只有現在差不多一半一兆五千多億人家張進雄透過朝野協商之後"},{"start":4195.97,"end":4213.061,"text":"沒有像你去砍了地方的一般補助款然後到今天受到立法院來的追加案還把地方政府把人民當成弱票要立法院去附贖金張委員你已經自己講出答案了經過草野協商之後有跟行政院協商嗎有嗎"},{"start":4214.876,"end":4242.287,"text":"協商是你們破壞的從萬年總召柯建民你們三長跟整個黨團還有協商嗎沒有協商就可以大軍壓境嗎韓院長在主持會議的時候要朝野協商你們連主計長都不敢來中華民國有洗了朝野協商主計長財政部長要在被你們下令不能來立法院內的朝野協商發生困難就可以將行政院的意見完全不顧嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":4244.568,"end":4273.752,"text":"你們也不能完全不尊重立法院嘛而且你要尊重 尊重長久的朝野協商 第一個第一個 主計長 財政部長 相關人員要在我們要跟你談 要三減多少你們要去精算嘛結果你們下令他不准來你們一開始就為了大罷免天才火你們就不要他來這段完全是誤解這段完全是惡意的誤會院長 我們今天是要解決問題我跟你講有更好的解決方案我們從歷史找答案嘛以前有成功的個案啊"},{"start":4274.392,"end":4298.352,"text":"你已經大罷免大失敗為什麼要困在那個大罷免大失敗裡面呢大罷免是公民團體所提出的不要說是我們大罷免是公民團體我們尊重人民就要有這樣的民主至上人民至上的主要的觀念在這裡不要一直說大罷免大失敗是我們提出的我們看成功的個案你是有智慧的人我相信你應該開始要調整了你不要一直陷在以前那個經驗裡面來"},{"start":4301.238,"end":4326.692,"text":"這個是主計處的故事你回到行政院主計總署你都可以看到這一頁這個講的是2002年那一年中央政府總議在審查的時候針對稅客收入大幅刪減了812億造成短差擴大到685億所以決議要求行政院自行檢列同耳的稅出彌補"},{"start":4327.585,"end":4354.464,"text":"有沒有看到那個關鍵字你的重點在畫在下一段你的重點在畫在下一段對 沒錯 你都沒有看到關鍵字也是要你自行調整每一年立法院三讀通過的時候都會要求行政部門同時去做自行的調整 這是第一點請委員繼續把下面那一段唸出來比今年的636億還多 685億那委員請把下面那一段唸出來啊來來 你來唸下面那一段唸出來啊"},{"start":4355.906,"end":4364.073,"text":"你下面那段啊行政院跟朝野黨團協商時提出各種可行的處理方案3月1號、12號、13號三次協商討論後兩院院長協議後3月22日簽署協議書有嗎"},{"start":4371.955,"end":4382.783,"text":"協商好幾次啊 韓院長就坐在上面啊韓院長主持過幾次會議韓院長為了解決這問題還進了總統府耶回來還邀集了各黨的黨團協商怎麼會沒有協商呢韓院長已經很幫忙了 兩院院長協議後3月22日簽署協議書 有嗎院長你不要扭曲事實這個是你寫的啊今天主席長來 主席長來坐在這邊我先給你看"},{"start":4396.033,"end":4422.637,"text":"主席長我講的話主席長有聽進去所以後來主席長參考了2002年的個案齊凱那時候也提出來所以後來主席長給你做了三個建議案對不對他說解決這636例很簡單嘛第一個三在席 什麼叫三在席就是2002年用的方法嘛主席 主席長在點頭 他有聽進去朝野協商有功效 是你不採用"},{"start":4423.417,"end":4438.355,"text":"2002年的成功經驗也不採用主機台有良心的經驗你這樣的詞詢是犯章取義你自己拿出來的影片裡面的文字你自己不在意你只唸出那一段"},{"start":4439.156,"end":4464.054,"text":"你只有頭沒有尾這樣的諮詢不行的啦我現在跟你講有草野協商不是嗎有兩院院長協商有兩院院長簽字同意嗎那個院長你就繼續留在那個大失敗裡面硬拗的那個過程我留在你的資料裡面經過以前有成功的個案而且草野協商主席也跟你提了你就依照2002年看清楚嘛36億就解決了結果不是"},{"start":4464.934,"end":4467.477,"text":"你用以前成功個案把債息"},{"start":4482.31,"end":4500.19,"text":"可能是降低 或者是延後 你就可以解決問題嘛韓院長那麼辛苦 還找大家來協商 本來是一個很好的成果沒關係 我今天不跟你爭辯這個我現在跟你講說 以前張進雄行 我不相信卓榮泰不行啦我也可以 以前的陳水扁行 不可能現在的戴清德不行張委員 兩院院長同意就可以 有嗎兩院院長同意就可以 有嗎"},{"start":4503.433,"end":4516.567,"text":"你有提出用再洗嗎沒有耶 你就去砍了一般補助款耶你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎不只是私能耶 你叫私德耶這也是社會福利的預算基礎建設的預算教育的預算你們在這裡表決有給我機會嗎"},{"start":4520.512,"end":4546.201,"text":"所以你後來有草野協商嘛 說不聽草野協商主席都提案子 你就照這樣做你們內部協商困難 你不能就讓行政院接受沒關係 你摸著良心 這錢你會做公平剛剛講的是你該送過來的 另外一個我該送的我都有送你看你送過來的是什麼不該送的636億堅持要送 該送的不送"},{"start":4547.725,"end":4567.144,"text":"金人加薪這個事情你看金人你送過來金人有家籍你收容貸想要怎麼做都可以對不對立法院通過你就是不願意做家籍你一句話你就做了然後立法院通過幫金人一個月加薪三萬塊錢你偏偏就不做這是怎樣"},{"start":4568.066,"end":4595.17,"text":"你有沒有考慮到憲法的程序你有沒有考慮到國家的財政跟立法院還有所有你有考慮到所有公務人員的衡平性嗎我們加急量力而為而且循序漸進你有考慮到所有公務員的衡平性跟公平性嗎而且不只是金人不要轉移話題警察人員 消防人員 海巡 移民署"},{"start":4597.171,"end":4609.242,"text":"你提復一案你提了復一案你又失敗你今年追加你也不編115年也不編你什麼意思追加預算你腦袋裡面你眼睛裡面有法治嗎"},{"start":4610.37,"end":4633.043,"text":"你把憲法放在哪裡 把法律放在哪裡如果追加預算是一個法定可以走的程序那我們是依照這個程序懇請委員就各部位現在自然難行執行業務困難之處 能夠再跟委員拜託請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來執行 請可委員來�"},{"start":4636.803,"end":4654.336,"text":"不只是嚴重違反預算法預算法裡面四項才可以追加預算的你今天送來的幾乎都不是我統計了一下七個單位內政部被刪的預算回編追加率將近100%95國防部75行政院327農業部"},{"start":4665.137,"end":4678.251,"text":"超過54%環境部超過597個機關立法院砍掉了你全部把它補回來補超過一半還有三個機關竟然還超過100%行政院327%外交部151%海委會139%院長"},{"start":4688.12,"end":4704.753,"text":"你眼裡面有憲法有立法院嗎 有人民嗎立法院負責審查預算結果立法院砍掉了你全部把它追回來我們是爭取再一次機會讓各委員聽聽各部會的困難以後你們政權換成是其他黨的時候我看你們當在野黨怎麼辦最重要比槍聲更累我們要認證憲法 尊重法治法院長 戴總統已經講了行政立法要怎麼做你要不要交給戴總統今天我跟你講了"},{"start":4718.703,"end":4731.615,"text":"好好 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長答詢"},{"start":4749.858,"end":4765.589,"text":"好接下來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢請侯孟凱委員準備謝謝主席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢吳委員好"},{"start":4774.381,"end":4791.658,"text":"院長大家辛苦了請息怒誰在硬拗誰在強詞奪理社會自有公斷負責任的執政黨我們努力做到只是可惜忠誠的在野黨在台灣現在還沒有看到我多次的說"},{"start":4793.127,"end":4808.966,"text":"國家是大家的預算是全民的預算沒有顏色但是藍白主導的國會卻讓114年以及來年115年的中央財政都陷入了黑暗期"},{"start":4810.925,"end":4826.063,"text":"114年是審查總預算史上最混亂刪減最多 凍結最嚴格這是史上未見的一個總預算之亂我們都在全民持續的受苦"},{"start":4827.031,"end":4842.247,"text":"但是來年要編列也即將送出的115年總預算我更要說是中央財政有史以來最最黑暗的時期而且這是史上最難編列的一次總預算"},{"start":4843.348,"end":4869.704,"text":"稍後我會就追加預算任性特別預算跟年度新的總預算來就教於您我要再次呼籲國會縱使應當嚴格審查但也要合理監督不是胡扯硬凹以為要癱瘓傷害執政黨卻是傷害了自己的國家下一頁"},{"start":4870.785,"end":4874.716,"text":"今天我先跟您講文化講文化會讓我們更優雅一點"},{"start":4876.159,"end":4901.405,"text":"我也期待我卸任幹事長之後我可以回到文化立委的身份去投入我最熱愛也最專業的文化的政策首先在2018年吳斯堯是國會第一位我倡議台灣的國家軟實力就是文化力要善用國際的Mega Event讓台灣的國家品牌跟上國際的賽會賽事讓世界看見台灣"},{"start":4905.126,"end":4921.635,"text":"所以當我2018年倡議的時候我那時候的聚焦就是優先從2020年的東京奧運再來2024年的巴黎奧運乃至於2025今年的大阪世博都讓台灣組成文化國家隊讓世界看見台灣下一頁"},{"start":4922.535,"end":4939.296,"text":"於是當時的行政院長賴清德他就同意拍板成為我們文化外交的新模式因此2021年我們在東京奧運啟動的台灣Now就是一個最好的開端下一頁"},{"start":4940.293,"end":4966.386,"text":"接著在巴黎的奧運上我們又用文化台灣呈現台灣的文化藝術力也獲得世界的掌聲它不只表演藝術 視覺藝術我們的策展 我們的閱讀所有的文化人集結邁向讓世界看到利用運動賽會的奧運舞台它也是台灣的文化盛會下一頁"},{"start":4967.392,"end":4982.413,"text":"所以今年的大阪市博我們的文化部門也是這樣雄心壯志乘勝追擊但是就因為在野黨二砍二刪預算而且鎖定特定的預算就是國際的沒宣費"},{"start":4984.075,"end":5004.454,"text":"讓台灣的國際宣傳沒了錢就是形同讓台灣的文化力台灣的聲音在世界背進身勒住了脖子勒住台灣自己脖子的人是自己的立法委員自己的國會所以承受了惡果啊今年的大阪市博就是現在八月"},{"start":5005.643,"end":5022.226,"text":"然後呢 國際沒宣費被在野黨惡砍之後文化人站出來由楊大正 由吳念真老師發起民間募資要推動我們前進大阪的活動因為要強化宣傳"},{"start":5023.291,"end":5038.658,"text":"我們的文化藝術表演界都準備好但沒有文化宣傳費所以發起了民間募資在登場的這一系列35組藝術人超過140場的文化展演共募資光37小時就募資600萬"},{"start":5040.481,"end":5069.841,"text":"所以這已經上路的三週的文化展演在大阪獲得無限的掌聲這是第一階段的募資第二階段的募資下一頁就是現在即將要利用如果大阪世博未來要卸幕的時候文化人再啟動一次的募資到現在也有700萬的民間的善款我們要在閉幕的時候We Taiwan這個文化運動要在大阪所有的地鐵"},{"start":5071.001,"end":5099.187,"text":"來感謝世界各國支持台灣的力量再一次的行銷台灣而國家沒有錢被國民黨民眾黨惡砍了只好讓民間的文化人來募資韓國瑜院長打算安排朝野的立委九月可以到大阪去見證台灣文化力的實力展現但我要說院長你不覺得國會對不起文化人嗎"},{"start":5101.366,"end":5120.767,"text":"國會對不起文化人嗎當我們帶著大批的立委跨黨派的立委要去大阪沾光的時候國會卻是扼砍我們文化國際宣傳的元兇我不曉得韓院長帶著草野的立委去大阪的時候是要抱著什麼心情"},{"start":5121.929,"end":5139.447,"text":"我認為國會欠文化人一個道歉文化人站出來搶救文化預算到現在被國民黨的立法委員秋後算帳進行政治的追殺這就是一個惡果啊所以我從文化的事件開始下一頁"},{"start":5140.598,"end":5169.179,"text":"所有的惡果都在這一張通宣9391不明就李還砍過頭國務委員我能回答一句話好請回答為了向委員學習對文化的重視我們明年文化部的預算跟今年一樣我堅持超過300億元我們也達到了這是第一個再來文化部明年有一個計畫要把大阪博覽會相關文化預算回來台灣沒錯我知道你們先去看我們在台灣等"},{"start":5169.878,"end":5191.337,"text":"我希望在野黨的立委不要再為難文化了我也支持在新年度的預算國家支持文化軟實力國會不要再惡砍當然非常好大阪這個140場的文化展演確實文化部打算讓它移回台灣讓台灣人也能受惠我絕對支持政府這樣的做法"},{"start":5192.398,"end":5215.479,"text":"但是不要再上演去年通山9391還砍過頭還找不到明目砍要行政院自己去調節就產生了6361的這個惡果剛剛在野黨的委員還在這裡大聲指責您我真的是覺得沒有看過這種加害者一再的譴責受害人"},{"start":5216.34,"end":5233.86,"text":"而當受害的一方行政團隊想方設法提出解方也就是追加預算來解套來挽救國家的財政推動國家的政務的時候現在這些在野黨的委員還在那邊轉移焦點想要洗白自己的罪行下一頁"},{"start":5234.841,"end":5257.67,"text":"追加預算我們即將安排審議明後天的委員會跟週五的院會這也是韓國瑜院長所拋出的就讓砍過頭的預算用追加預算來恢復補回這也是泛藍陣營地方執政的縣市首長共同的呼籲所以呢下一頁"},{"start":5258.65,"end":5278.865,"text":"我在這裡說讓施政回歸正軌藍白的立委如果想要洗白自己二砍總預算的罪行不要再擋追加預算了他除了有六三六億地方補助款之外更有我剛剛說的很重要的中央施政必要的預算下一頁"},{"start":5280.311,"end":5298.803,"text":"這些是中央時政各部會真的需要用錢的部分我剛剛講的We Taiwan在大阪的文化行動下一頁我們同樣受到重傷的就是媒體宣傳費不只對外對國際行銷台灣被自己的立法委員掐住了脖子"},{"start":5299.744,"end":5311.111,"text":"對內當政策需要對國人進行宣導的時候也被砍光光怎麼做譬如說政策的宣導有什麼風災之後要宣導災民怎麼樣來"},{"start":5312.512,"end":5339.402,"text":"加入政府給的協助措施對不對當我們要打詐需要沒宣費告訴政府告訴人民現在政府有哪些打詐的做法包括馬上要普發現金了如果在野黨不要再擋任性特別條例修正案的話發現金的過程這是史上花最多的一次現金他當然需要去宣傳告訴國人怎麼執行不要被詐騙嘛對不對"},{"start":5340.728,"end":5355.514,"text":"院長給您最後的時間喊話一下在野黨的委員這是你們真真切切去洗白你們二砍總預算的機會就是支持追加預算院長再次喊話吧在總統指示下我們願意"},{"start":5356.054,"end":5383.245,"text":"而且會主動的來調整兩院互動關係所以為了追加預算為了特別預算為了明年度總預算我們會主動積極來進行溝通協調我也希望大院給我們這個機會但是如果牽涉到是憲法的問題那沒有什麼可以討論的憲法的標準是有一套所以剛剛也許我的語氣比較激動因為委員對於憲政的秩序要了解"},{"start":5384.045,"end":5412.447,"text":"對於釋憲對於暫時處分的公眾要了解才能在這裡對話所以我並不願意用一種比較激烈的態度來講話我還是誠誠懇懇拜託大院這一次的中央政府總預算的追加限制到各部會目前的困難自然難行我們更希望一起中央地方來解決現在所遇到的財政問題這個一解決今年度我們解決明年度的中央政府總預算我們回到"},{"start":5413.336,"end":5420.525,"text":"合理正常的朝野經商我們該怎麼做包括警消包括軍人如果釋憲出來我們這個條例沒有違憲"},{"start":5424.787,"end":5453.121,"text":"我們就補回來追溯回來如果違憲我們現在發了我請問委員我們現在發了一個違憲的執行是立法院違憲還是行政院違憲還是我們共同違憲我們都不要承擔這個責任我是用這樣的方式跟態度我請韓院長理解各位委員理解 謝謝所以其實院長您不用覺得對於剛剛可能動了一點氣覺得Sorry事實上面對這種在野黨的立委不懂憲政"},{"start":5454.201,"end":5478.581,"text":"不懂法律也不懂自己國會基於權力分立的原則沒有立院最大這件事在野黨的委員如果沒有辦法清楚的掌握真的秀才遇見兵有理說不清不要說是您啊我每一次朝野協商都氣到火冒三丈啊但我們都在忍辱負重我們都在為國家的前進持續的不放棄溝通"},{"start":5479.875,"end":5498.381,"text":"我們要提高自己的修養是 還好我們都很優雅下一頁講到任性特別預算我們透過修正案的部分停產業顧民生助弱勢也要發現金這都是產業要的救命錢更是弱勢期待的及時雨下一頁"},{"start":5499.401,"end":5527.981,"text":"所以說讓違憲成為核憲我們提出特別條例的修正案增加到5900億的預算然後呢我非常期待這個週末也就是週五讓這個史上最常研會也最沒有意義的研會至少交出起碼合格的成績單就是讓任性特別條例的預算案能夠對不起修正案能夠順利通過我相信韓院長也會做出努力來進行朝野協商"},{"start":5528.641,"end":5556.58,"text":"所以如果8月底我們能夠讓特別條例違憲成為合憲立法院通過之後9月就可以編出預算送出預算國會審查最快最快10月可望來執行相關的預算停產業顧名聲發現金駐弱市這是我們共同的期待希望藍白的立委不要再找任何的方式來做"},{"start":5557.521,"end":5573.298,"text":"為反對而反對的作為下一頁我們對於預算提出調整因為我們需要擴大加碼挺弱勢跟支持產業下一頁我非常不能接受當中有一筆200億強化台電電力設施的預算"},{"start":5577.882,"end":5597.051,"text":"這200億是用在全台灣的產業園區乃至於工業區要協助產業能夠有穩定的供電更強韌的電網韌性來幫助產業的發展但是目前為止據說在野黨尤其民眾黨的委員似乎磨刀霍霍不給這筆預算"},{"start":5598.992,"end":5620.058,"text":"吳斯堯來自台北市北市科是北台灣科技狼帶最後一塊拼圖也是我們期待輝達可以進駐如果在野黨的委員何況柯文哲前市長一再把北市科當作他的政績但事實上我要說這是郝龍斌市長任內就殿下的基礎包括吳斯堯擔任市議員我們一起來催生"},{"start":5623.106,"end":5647.356,"text":"如果現在這200億被民眾黨的委員揚言要砍了我希望不是事實喔那麼對於北市科的發展對於輝達的進駐乃至於其他台灣的工業區產業區的產業的需求就會大受傷害下一頁所以輝達落腳北市科除了黃仁勳說請蔣萬事長加把勁"},{"start":5649.617,"end":5677.773,"text":"我也希望請藍白的立委不要為反對而反對最後的時間請您來進行說明謝謝委員而且台電的這個預算我已經請他啟動全國電纜地下化的評估他會在初期也把這些評估甚至選定一些發電所需要技術可行的要先行做一些工作出來所以這個預算如果通過早日朝電纜地下化整個電纜韌性安全來做不僅台北受益"},{"start":5681.9,"end":5708.272,"text":"支持台電電網熱性強化的預算這兩百億是全台灣的產業園區工業區所需要的是我們因應美國的官員抽籍我們停產業不止產業非常重要的珍貴的預算我也希望不要迷難北市科不要成為北市科發展的絆腳石不要成為關卡進駐北市科的阻礙我再呼籲再也講各位"},{"start":5710.609,"end":5731.353,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝吳思瑤委員子訊謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝喝口水吧"},{"start":5735.68,"end":5748.531,"text":"郭議員現在在議場二樓旁聽來自台中的一群鄉親朋友好 我們掌聲歡迎接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":5774.175,"end":5799.606,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請卓榮泰院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢副委員好卓院長好 卓院長114年行政院所送出來的總預算以及包括這一次8月所送出來的追加預算總共有三高一低四個特點"},{"start":5801.104,"end":5827.117,"text":"三高分別是總預算規模史上最高即便是通過了立法院的審查能高達兩兆九千三百億元左右是歷屆中華民國政府史上最高的總預算兩兆九千三百億元第二如果說再加計這一次的追加預算八百多億算進來的話將首次突破三兆元預算"},{"start":5828.447,"end":5855.09,"text":"追加預算也創歷史新高以及第三回編率史上最高立法院所刪除依照人民給予我們立法委員的職權來監督政府把關預算勘緊人民荷包但是當我們請行政部門來尊爵開支的時候沒想到這次再追加預算又再回編回編率史上最高"},{"start":5856.249,"end":5874.978,"text":"低 什麼低 刪除率如果說扣除台電1000億這一次假設都全部回編的話將會是史上最低的刪除率過去8年即便是民進黨國會多數全面過敗也沒有刪除那麼低過高達低達0.65%"},{"start":5879.93,"end":5897.665,"text":"換言之當初行政院所提出的3兆元的預算現在回編率創新高的情況下刪除率只有0.65百分比院長拿了那麼多錢手上那麼多現金"},{"start":5899.128,"end":5915.014,"text":"過去一直推說是這個經濟表現亮眼地方政府也變高所以行政部門也變高但是我開宗明義第一點我就跟你說了總預算也是現在史上最高兩兆九千三百億今年三分之二過去了"},{"start":5915.509,"end":5932.737,"text":"到現在又再推出一個所謂的800多億的追加預算而其中這追加預算裡面分兩塊我想先跟您就教到目前為止有哪一個部門補貼人民反應有自愛難行或說當初凍結解凍之後沒有領到的補貼嗎"},{"start":5935.398,"end":5964.418,"text":"謝謝委員這樣的數字的整理 確實也沒錯確實沒錯 行政院的編的預算 行政院院長剛剛已經親口承認了三高一低的預算 確實沒錯我是說包括您所在的新北市 今年的預算也是史上最高最高並不是最過 看有沒有做什麼事情我們今年編的預算當中有2809億我一再強調是新增事項 過去所沒有的如果這些新增事項都不要的話 我們就比過去一樣"},{"start":5965.218,"end":5990.447,"text":"在經過大院的刪減之後我們就只有去年本席問的問題跟你回答的方向完全不一致我第一個問的是為什麼高針對問題回答問題到底到現在三分之二年度過去了有哪一些預算該拿到人民的補貼當初造謠講說租金補貼教育補貼幼兒津貼甚至體育相關預算有哪一筆預算是沒有拿到我要謝謝大院在"},{"start":5991.327,"end":6015.6,"text":"今年上半年之後有比較快的速度跟效率啊回復了一些凍結的預算凍結預算之後所以沒有嘛我們一千多億的凍結有部分解除但是我們還是有包括台電在內的一千四百三十九億被刪除台電還有四百三十九億被刪除人民已經用公投也好或是說用兩次的投票都已經正式的正告行政部門"},{"start":6016.6,"end":6043.479,"text":"錯誤的能源政策不改什麼店都沒有用來 院長我再跟你請教我們這一次的追加預算800多億本期救市論事分兩個部分一個是636億是地方政府的一個補助款一個是將近300億也就是所謂的其他各單位對不對 我們分兩塊也有一些新增的項目沒問題 我們分兩塊我想立法院從頭到尾沒有說要刪除這個必須依法編列的一般補助款636億"},{"start":6045.191,"end":6066.867,"text":"自行調整的部分行政院用乾坤大挪移把它去挪移到25%也就是所謂的636億那我請教什麼時候行政院確認要636億刪除掉地方政府的不足款我們在大院確定刪除預算之後我們也對預算提出了各種的救濟都沒有辦法獲得"},{"start":6068.839,"end":6084.97,"text":"我沒有辦法講出時間600多億行政院長不知道時間你要問我哪一天嗎不是 什麼時候確定就是在大院刪除之後我們經過各項救濟都沒有辦法來回復的時候我們看看各部會已經被刪除的預算"},{"start":6086.363,"end":6109.353,"text":"今年1月立法院通過了總預算2月總統召集協商立法院長 行政院長一起協商那是2月的事情當時韓國瑜院長也提出說可以請行政部門用追加預算來辦理不一定要提復議 行政院不聽3月提出復議之後被立法院打臉到5月你們提出了地方政府的補助款刪除現在幾月"},{"start":6110.233,"end":6127.805,"text":"所以我們在那個時候我們就之後我們還要看看各部會執行的困難不是 院長我現在跟你討論636億五月的時候你們提出了刪除地方政府636億地方政府是不是馬上在禮拜四的行政院會都告訴行政院長說這樣不可"},{"start":6128.909,"end":6155.761,"text":"會有知愛難情之處因為地方政府的命根子地方政府的財源會被你全部都卡掉當時我有請地方我們中央地方一體共體一間結果現在8月才提出最佳預算因為我還有各部會我們除了地方政府的反應之外還有各部會在執行上實際發生的困難我們現在在討論的是636億我可能辦第一次或第二次的最佳你沒有辦法針對問題解決問題回答問題這樣子我們很難理性溝通就如同剛剛吳斯亞委員都已經在講了"},{"start":6156.701,"end":6180.238,"text":"吳蔡偉現在又要離開了但是他剛剛在講的時候他剛剛在講啊我們就事論性就問題解決問題本席現在在請教的是你說我什麼時候提出最佳預算嗎636億你們提出來地方政府也講說自愛難行五月的時候提出來到現在八月那中間三個月的時間我們還有各部會主席長或行政院長應該也很清楚我們還有各部會的自愛難行地方政府"},{"start":6180.578,"end":6193.86,"text":"地方政府是不是現在即便是我們現在八月底要通過地方補助款的話有可能很多的發包有可能很多工程有可能很多過去行之有年的這些建設也會在最後四個月來不及"},{"start":6195.254,"end":6213.873,"text":"這個部分如果刪減一般性補助款他影響到的是稅入他稅出如果說他本身一個照案執行他還是照樣可以發報只是將來就是說如果所以這個部分我們就院長很認真的跟你討論的地方在於是哪裡在於是"},{"start":6215.661,"end":6231.133,"text":"2月韓國院長就已經代表立法院也說明了可以用追加預算行政院不聽3月一定要提復議復議完之後5月乾坤大挪移把636億挪移到地方政府補助款就到現在8月"},{"start":6231.954,"end":6248.062,"text":"非得一定要就是大罷免大失敗之後你們才要來做相關的救濟嗎不是這樣子的看起來就是如此啊我們要讓各部會執行上真的發生困難的時候你們現在的狀況反映在院裡面我們一併提出最佳預算從一開始開宗明義本席就講了你也說了三高一低的預算"},{"start":6249.54,"end":6272.097,"text":"拿到史上最高的總預算結果現在三分之二年度過去了才在那邊講是說要追加預算這不是拿地方政府來綁架立法院什麼才是那最大宗的就是636億所以這就是代表行政部門過去應該依法編列的地方政府補助款的預算你們拿來綁架變成是拿來跟立法院叫板嗎"},{"start":6273.317,"end":6297.684,"text":"看準了立法院我們希望是大家能夠推動所以636億我們會支持但是你們到現在8月的時候才要提出水庫的水被抽光了流向滋流的就會減少這是必然的32比0是國人告訴民進黨政府國會監督制衡的重要性"},{"start":6299.382,"end":6318.28,"text":"我們一年多來我絕對專業理性問政監督但是一年多來民進黨政府有沒有做到這樣子好好的施政好好的為人民法官本席也一直認為賴清德總統一年多來確實欠台灣人民一個道歉"},{"start":6320.728,"end":6349.708,"text":"他是黨主席 他是總統但到目前為止沒有聽到他對罷罷免完畢之後他有對罷團說道歉罷團說對不起所以與民同行結果與的是少數的公民同行而不是多數的主流民意那本席想請教賴清德總統說不出口的道歉我們是提出大罷免的是行政機關或是總統賴清德總統說不出口的道歉行政院長卓榮泰願意幫他道歉嗎"},{"start":6350.933,"end":6379.193,"text":"我幫總統道歉我沒有任何的權利幫總統道歉如果行政院任何部分有錯誤那我想請教過去這幾次您跟賴清德總統請辭的主要原因是什麼我認為在一次的投票之後我們感覺到我們的施政並沒有馬上可以反應下去所以我認為這個團隊要調整那團隊要調整那您請辭的原因是什麼"},{"start":6380.39,"end":6405.816,"text":"必須負起這樣團隊調整的政治責任那與其部分的調整不如全部的調整賴清德總統留任的原因主要是什麼他認為我們過去所做的一些事情現在還在持續當中也發揮了一定的成果未來包括明年的總預算包括我們所提出的各項建設所以他認為整個溝通就如同您剛講的溝通是不良的政策沒有下放的"},{"start":6406.876,"end":6434.705,"text":"行政院長副院長不用調整那其他部會要調整現在的局勢能夠穩下來但是再提出了四個調整那四個調整在7月底的時候我也提出過就是財政的體質院長你還是沒有回答問題來 院長我再直接請教一下那現在因為這一次提出來636億剛剛已經討論完剩下200多億各部會的總共有幾個部會提出來最佳預算總共提出來的部會有包括"},{"start":6436.121,"end":6458.231,"text":"總共幾個還要翻資料有有有 總共幾個我當然要算了我不能這樣子跟你說是幾個總共幾個還要翻資料啊包括經濟部 內政部 速發部 農業部 國防部還要翻資料啊海委會 衛生部 19個部會來 19個部會有哪幾個部長有可能會調整這個人事的問題容許我不在這裡做我只問幾個 我沒有說哪一個"},{"start":6459.48,"end":6476.673,"text":"院長您剛剛馬上快訊就出來了嘛說你剛剛回答王洪輝委員講說五個以上嘛可能次長加部長五個以上但本時想要確認為什麼我覺得這很重要啊就如同說行政院長我們記不記得2024年我們2月1號就已經開議了當時也做過施政總報告"},{"start":6477.614,"end":6495.515,"text":"那施政總報告結束之後等到您5月21號您上任之後我們還是要求再次施政總報告因為換了主官換了主事者可能會有不同的思維那一樣的道理現在我們通過的追加預算如果現在是A部長接結果通過了A部長所提出的追加預算結果馬上一個禮拜內換B部長"},{"start":6497.267,"end":6514.779,"text":"那我們到底要不要再問一下說這B部長有沒有自愛難行還是B部長會不會認為說其實他現在預算就夠了政府的施政是延續性的如果有新的部長上任我會跟他你剛剛就講了嘛我會跟他在上任賴清德總統認為是說有人事要調整的必要所以說你們也做人事調整"},{"start":6515.239,"end":6543.028,"text":"即便是你多次請辭我剛剛也聽不清楚說你到底請辭的理由跟藉口是什麼但是不管怎麼樣看起來你也留定了那我們現在想問的是那下面的部長我可以叫哪一個部長上來他會不會一個禮拜跟我承諾之後結果一個禮拜內他就不見了兩個步驟第一個政府的施政是連續性一貫性的我待會教是連續性的一貫性新的首長但是主事者這麼重要不管換A換B換一顆西瓜也可以當任部長"},{"start":6543.928,"end":6552.047,"text":"新的首長在跟他徵詢面談決定之前我都會跟他提到相關預算的問題我希望他能夠執行現在的那你面談過幾個部長了現在"},{"start":6556.325,"end":6582.558,"text":"您面談過幾個部長了我現在就是有兩位部長提出了職程因為有一位次長也提出了離開那其他呢那其他的都還在進行當中什麼時候會決定我希望盡快決定不會等到我們這個禮拜五院會通過追加預算之後你們下午才決定我希望本週能夠盡快決定就是這個禮拜五下班以前如果能夠更早的話會更符合您的期待院長來喔"},{"start":6584.522,"end":6609.842,"text":"最近的政論節目都有提到說過去這一年多民進黨政府為什麼會施政滿意度不管是賴清德總統或卓榮泰院長或是內閣團隊都屢創新低確實這是客觀數字沒有辦法騙人但其中一個很重要的理由是那到底過去這一年多我們自豪的政策推出有感民眾認為說卓榮泰內閣裡面真的在關心的政策"},{"start":6611.166,"end":6614.379,"text":"說政論節目問到三個名嘴名嘴啞口無言也說不出來"},{"start":6616.115,"end":6643.504,"text":"來 給你一個宣傳的時間三個政策有認為說具體哪三個政策是人民過去這一年都你們很自豪的我們在經濟發展委員會當中第一個造圓投資國家的方案現在已經有十足的進展往以後會更加快速另外就是亞洲資產管理中心在高雄的場域試驗已經有多家的金融機構投入也展現了一個新的氣息另外我們今年很重視兩項一個是中小企業的多元振興跟發展"},{"start":6644.184,"end":6668.861,"text":"我們用了比過去更多的經費另外我們在系統性治水方面我們也把它提升經費希望能夠救八年八百億前瞻之後系統性治水這是有淹水但是我知道淹水的地區縮小了退水的時間比較快你提到這三個政策有感的政策姑且你心中認為有感你知道這有一個共通點嗎這三個政策都是經濟部長的工作"},{"start":6669.977,"end":6690.809,"text":"你剛講這三個中策都是主要是經濟部長的工作這也看得出來我們國人才會覺得最加的訝異就是當你這樣講這三個部分經濟有沒有表現好國人不清楚國人有感但是國人有沒有感不一定但是你提到這三個部分沒有一個宏觀的狀況我們的打架呢我們的國防"},{"start":6693.097,"end":6712.597,"text":"當初講說AI內閣結果現在AI人工智慧基本法還停在行政院版本還沒有出來我們說實在話您知道您的部長已經在立法院跳票兩次了嗎"},{"start":6712.637,"end":6741.396,"text":"本來承諾7月初要出來的黑暗運動諸位基本法7月15號也沒有出來結果到現在我們立法院已經先審查了還在等待行政院的反本拜託院長行刑好院長可以的話真的回去好好地把你位首長每個人的上級發條國家還需要往前在野黨有責任跟在野黨也願意跟行政部門一起合作但是絕對不是這個樣子"},{"start":6744.398,"end":6765.209,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢謝謝卓院長備詢 謝謝我們接下來鍾嘉斌委員質詢之後將會休息十分鐘我們請鍾嘉斌委員請質詢"},{"start":6775.134,"end":6793.914,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟總統官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請卓院長跟陳主席長然後請農業部 交通部 經濟部跟國發會請準備麻煩請卓院長 主席總長"},{"start":6802.521,"end":6820.689,"text":"總務委員好院長好 主席長好剛才我聽了前面幾位委員尤其在當委員的質詢我也很疑惑院長 主席長我來自過去十年前來自地方政府我們過去的地方政府常常辦理追加預算我先請教主席長中央政府行政院常辦理追加預算嗎"},{"start":6822.007,"end":6840.708,"text":"很少辦很少辦理我過去在這10年100年辦一次然後再來就是113年辦台電的追加所以我就認為這10年來我還是第一次遇到但是我在過去地方擔任副縣長期間我們常常辦追加預算為什麼因為地方政府很多是仰仗中央政府的補助或計劃競爭型計劃我們會預算先列"},{"start":6844.319,"end":6871.434,"text":"但是必須中央補助下來的時候我們才辦追加為什麼因為錢沒到我們不能辦發包所以我們對於中央政府准許我們的補助之後我們會馬上辦追加所以地方政府幾乎年度中都會辦追加追加的因為就是等著米下鍋行教院長這次辦理追加的原因是不是中央政府沒有米下鍋需要立法院同意這些追加預算才有辦法繼續施政"},{"start":6872.641,"end":6899.696,"text":"委員這個形容是貼切的跟我說的一樣水庫沒有水 支流就沒有水所以必須要水庫的水先把它填滿你要下鍋的意思是相同的一般的社會認知去年在野黨亂砍中央政府走運算造成我們今年度的施政推動困難地方很多建設無錢可做為了解決這個困境所以由我們韓院長出面用追加預算的方式來解決這個無米可吹的困境是不是這樣"},{"start":6901.153,"end":6922.632,"text":"當初是有談過在總統召集的院計協商當中韓院長是很好意的提出了這樣的方式但是呢既然這樣的一個追加預算的方法是我們韓院長也提出為了解決過去國會亂砍預算造成施政困難但是又不能夠預算重審所以請行政院以追加的方式來做是不是這樣子"},{"start":6923.539,"end":6935.589,"text":"這沒錯嗎好 結果我看到前天我們立法院的預算中心說這一次追加預算的從編率過高削弱了立法院的職權我很疑惑"},{"start":6936.963,"end":6966.176,"text":"明明就是立法院亂三三過頭了做不下去了才有院長出面為了解決這個難題請行政院不是用複製的方式提出用追加的預算方式提出簡單講我們行政院買一輛車結果立法院審計這邊也不要倒車雷達也不要衛星定位配備都不要結果連方向都沒有這個車交給你沒辦法開所以只好拜託再把這些配備恢復回去這輛車才能開"},{"start":6966.914,"end":6989.074,"text":"是不是這樣子但是我們也謝謝韓院長的善意因為我們那個時候到現在各部會執行上發生的困難總要有一段時間去推動現在收集的各部會所困難的狀況以及這個636億我們才組成這個再加上一些新增事項才有這個878億因為簡單講就是買了一輛新車但是有人認為你們新車價格太高"},{"start":6989.935,"end":7018.771,"text":"很多設備都砍掉了結果這個車你開回來發現哇 油箱只有5公升根本沒有辦法開遠途所以要求再回去再買一個換個大油箱 是不是這樣子所以我是覺得雖然院長在這裡啊院長既然有這麼好意也應該提醒一下預算中心啊既然這是院長要求用一個補救之道當然重編率很高嘛就是因為亂砍 砍掉不該砍的才需要透過最佳預算回復重編嘛 院長你說對嗎"},{"start":7019.844,"end":7042.083,"text":"我們也是依照各部會實際之所需有部會已經刪除的認為他不至於造成重大自在難行也並不在這整個預算的這個追加當中所以啊我很少對我們立法院自己的機關自己的部門批評這個預算中心這篇話為什麼成為新聞因為真的是狗咬人才是新聞"},{"start":7043.317,"end":7072.085,"text":"預算中心辜負了院長解決預算執行困難的好意結果還去批評說預算充電率太高真的就是這個預算中心不上新聞不死心啊非給要我們韓院長難堪不可啊好我們現在來問我們真正重要的議題來我們主委長請回我們請農業部長還有我們的這個交通部長麻煩請農業部交通部備詢來我們現在看一下院長你看一下這張照片"},{"start":7073.154,"end":7091.045,"text":"你認為水汪汪的這裡是什麼東西底下是什麼它是河還是路它應該是一條路而且是淤泥的水是我們農村常見的道路鋪得還不錯但是現在通通是水了為什麼"},{"start":7091.834,"end":7110.74,"text":"因為旁邊的農田水都排到道路上去了本來是路道現在變成河道我們來往下看來陳部長我們來看一下我們農田水利會過去有農田水利會農田水利法過去是農田水利會的時候我們的灌溉排水的溝渠是地方的水利會在負責"},{"start":7112.356,"end":7136.202,"text":"農委會或農業部是負責補足對不對但是現在因為農田水稻修改之後所有農田水利會都由中央變成農田水利署的地方管理處我們發現水利署根據農水法去執行如果沒有農用事實沒有灌溉需求的原來的灌溉的勾牌他就不再做灌溉勾了就變成了是由地方政府的區牌來處理是不是這樣子"},{"start":7137.202,"end":7166.28,"text":"對 如果已經不需要做農業灌溉的時候它可以化為都市化 填調或者是變成一個都市裡面的區域所以我們把這些具有排水功能的溝渠交給地方政府因為地方住宅需要所以院長我們有沒有並同預算也給地方政府很多的預算支持讓他們能夠來承擔這樣的工作應該在預算當中地方政府可以運用到這個方向來好 但是每個地方政府分配的不一樣"},{"start":7167.23,"end":7184.202,"text":"因為分配下來之後像農業縣分配到的比較少但是我們要去負責來處理成績的這些灌溉溝水的排水相對資源少所以很多地方的鄉鎮公所沒有辦法去清淤不能清淤的結果 結果是什麼這個農田我們往下看"},{"start":7185.503,"end":7214.223,"text":"這個農田他現在他的取水不是透過水利溝來取水他自己打井取水但是農田要排水還是用原來的灌溉溝但是這個灌溉溝已經移給地方政府去做清淤了他不只要排農田的水還要排附近住家的水但是因為地方政府他沒有能力財力不足他不去做結果造成了住宅的民生水也沒辦法排農田的水也沒辦法排陳部長有沒有地方跟你反映這個問題"},{"start":7216.486,"end":7221.956,"text":"陸續有一些縣市或是鄉鎮有反應這樣的一個問題但是每個個案我們都跟經濟部在處理"},{"start":7223.553,"end":7248.349,"text":"所以我說地方跟中央要共同齊心協力我們的預算已經撥下去你就盡量做但是我覺得中央還是可以來協助一件事情什麼事情其實這些農田它跟民生住宅是混在一起的這些溝渠廢為水利溝之後它作為區域排水地方政府要去維護這沒錯但是事實上我們中央從各級的道路它都有側溝排水"},{"start":7248.929,"end":7261.67,"text":"其實這些道路其實就可以負擔起道路的側溝排水它不能作為灌溉使用農田是不需要依賴側溝來灌溉但是農田跟住宅的排水都可以透過道路的側溝來排放"},{"start":7263.212,"end":7282.507,"text":"陳部長 交通部是不是主管全國各地的道路分級道路的一個規範的設計 工程規範的設計要求是 我們工程設計的規範要求我們的道路排水都是以怎樣 以降水的宣洩為主我把路面的降水排擦就可以了 車庫救護的功能"},{"start":7282.927,"end":7295.849,"text":"但實際上我們現在的測溝排不是只排道路的泄水我們會連同周邊廣大的住宅或農地的積水都要一起排所以它的通紅的斷面它的設計的容量是不是要提高"},{"start":7296.961,"end":7320.755,"text":"目前應該是有提高但是在規範上面我覺得是可以調整的所以我相信請院長指示農業部跟我們的交通部我們設法把農村地區的道路的工程規範的排水的效能把它提高他不只是負責道路的排水他也監助附近這些住宅或農地的排水是不是請我們指示兩位部長把這方面去研議"},{"start":7322.129,"end":7348.337,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是有關於農村地區的這些排水那因為那個水利法跟排水辦法是經濟部主管所以我們也會跟經濟部然後跟交通部一起去看看去重新一個設計我們請國發會的副主委上來也請經濟部的次長準備請陳部長可以先回 謝謝您的支持好 那麼部長你又指示了嘛那農業部長也說了那接下來的國發會這裡很重要"},{"start":7348.988,"end":7371.835,"text":"因為現在發現農業部他負責的設施他的效能不實現於農業而已所以目前農業部報的這些有農村地區相關的水利工程的預算請國科會要支持院長支不支持謝謝委員 這個建議國科會可以支持 國發會可以支持吧是的好 那麼我們請經營部次長來好 那接下來我談另外一個問題"},{"start":7373.778,"end":7397.386,"text":"下一個問題我們現在談一個問題這次的風災發生了很多電力網故障需要代修的情況是不是 院長你下去親自看了是不是很多的電力網要花很多的人力去修復這很多的事故其實不是特別嚴重就是樹枝殘葉捲到了架空線還一定要耗費人力去排除"},{"start":7398.346,"end":7418.704,"text":"經濟部長 是不是這樣子是好 但是我們仔細看了一下為什麼在農村居住地區有那麼多樹呢就是一個平地造林政策農業部陳部長 平地造林有關水土保持嗎沒有嘛有一部分啦平地造林 當年是20年前為什麼推動平地造林"},{"start":7419.465,"end":7435.426,"text":"所以我要加入WTO為了減少台灣的耕地面積的計算所以我們霸量的農地比較生產力低的我們鼓勵他平地造林 是不是這樣子所以這些造的林他是要零補助的但是正因為他只要零補助"},{"start":7436.169,"end":7462.606,"text":"他不求經濟效益所以平地造林20年來的亂象很多那麼其中包括什麼平地造林周邊地區這些樹疏於整理常常妨礙了道路上的電力的架空線造成台電的負擔何次長是不是這樣子這次的那個風災的停電一部分是因為這個樹枝的部分沒有修剪的部分我單單就屏東縣那個台電的區管處台電區營業處去算"},{"start":7465.444,"end":7481.241,"text":"111年數目構成的就這7件去年更多因為今年的颱風屏東比較沒有那麼嚴重去年的山陀我們很多的台電事故花費人力去做這些市長 這些平地造林有三分之一是台塘的地 您知道嗎"},{"start":7482.622,"end":7501.115,"text":"可不可以 院長 請經濟部責成台塘先將他們平地造林的林地周邊有道路 有架空線的優先把他們平地造林的樹木疏伐退縮3到5公尺避免再發生這個情況 可以嗎謝謝委員提醒經濟部應該要求台塘要負起這個責任"},{"start":7502.042,"end":7529.413,"text":"好 謝謝所以呢 我說與其颱風前去修減樹枝不如把這些沒有經濟效益的平地造林直接退縮疏伐不要再花力氣去維護也不會造成架空線受損市長你支持吧我支持好 謝謝 請回好 來 接下來我們要問的就是陳部長了院長其實平地造林不是只有在颱風風災的時候影響到我們的電力供應它也因為它屬於管理"},{"start":7530.712,"end":7557.172,"text":"陳部長你所知道的台灣這些平地造林有實際達到經濟林可以成材 銷售 獲益的有沒有我跟委員報告整個平地造林現在面積大概有13500多公頃台塘占三分之以上然後台塘是10500三分之二那其中已經成林而且具有生態價值大概3800多公頃你說的是生態價值但是現在有700多公頃是可以恢復農業生產"},{"start":7559.354,"end":7575.266,"text":"700多公頃 我真的13000公頃有700多公頃的農業生產其他的你不做農業生產他也沒有經濟零的效益他有生態棲息的效益但是生態棲息的效益地主沒有享受到我們平地造林20年期滿地主還可以領補助嗎"},{"start":7576.84,"end":7592.674,"text":"沒有了嗎所以沒有林補助的治下這13000多公頃的平地造林他就變成是一個地主爹不娘爺不愛沒有人去管只會造成附近農地農民的公害鼠害蛇害妨礙積水這些害眠部長你瞭解嗎"},{"start":7593.474,"end":7621.705,"text":"我跟委員報告就是一般平地造林很多樹種是20年還是不能砍拔的然後可能還要在10年的部分所以我有後續的獎勵我們現在沒有要加入WTO了平地造林當時的政策目標卓院長您仔細聽 已經沒有了所以平地造林要整個的去重新盤點退場讓這些原來的農地它是不是可以做農業還是做其他的用途使用好好的來思考一下"},{"start":7623.027,"end":7647.745,"text":"我想我們會遵照委員的一個建議我剛才說的就是不是700公尺是7000公頃左右是可以當作生產跟零下經濟的部分那我們會重新盤點將有一些是不是可以把它砍拔以後變成恢復到農業生產所以何市長再上來我現在就講一個例子講給院長聽現在台積電要在屏東要設廠"},{"start":7648.971,"end":7665.113,"text":"看中什麼 看中了我們的台塘的地上面在種什麼 種外銷的毛豆那台塘當然是讓給台積電 請毛豆農另外走啊那毛豆農他沒有地可以種他去問台塘還有哪些地可以種毛豆台塘說很多造林地"},{"start":7666.175,"end":7682.285,"text":"那些造林地其實不是只是台塘的台灣全國的平地造林地都應該用這個思維來思考如果這些地像台塘租給農民種毛豆的地如果也可以台積電蓋廠經濟部支持嘛行政院支不支持"},{"start":7684.447,"end":7711.905,"text":"評論支持啊 平衡縣會支持啊但是毛動龍怎麼辦毛動龍要去找其他的地如果這些地是平地造林的地部長是不是應該重新全部盤點平地造林的地如果有已經不適合做造林使用改用其他 不管是其他的使用方式整個來通盤檢討 院長支不支持我覺得通盤檢討的事情好 謝謝"},{"start":7714.36,"end":7728.781,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們休息十分鐘十分鐘之後請旭臻委員準備質詢"},{"start":8374.574,"end":8381.324,"text":"华业会现在我们继续开会我们接下来请徐宇峥委员咨询陈廷飞委员请准备"},{"start":8403.374,"end":8418.016,"text":"謝謝主席我們請卓榮泰卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢主委好卓院長好"},{"start":8419.963,"end":8449.563,"text":"主委長剛剛我有聽到民進黨的立法委員在說這次的追加預算是因應韓院長所提出的要求而提出的追加預算我記得在上禮拜我諮詢您的時候我就有提到了在今年2月10號總統邀集五院院長一曲是會唱國陣的時候韓院長當時提出用追加預算的方式是請您不要提出復議結果院長"},{"start":8450.458,"end":8474.016,"text":"您有沒有提出賦益有 你在2月27號提出了賦益結果呢 好 在提出賦益之後韓院長的目的是希望不要走這樣的程序我們可以透過追加預算來解決這個紛擾結果您還是提出了賦益然後在5月16號針對我們的一般性的補助款幫地方刪減了636億"},{"start":8476.178,"end":8484.984,"text":"所以這根本不是剛剛這民進黨委員在那邊胡說八道講的是因應這個韓院長的要求所以用這樣的方式來去混淆視聽我覺得非常非常的不公平院長是請您不要進出復議"},{"start":8492.008,"end":8508.188,"text":"可以用追加的方式嘛所以說我覺得民進黨委員不要在那邊造謠在胡說八道我覺得這個真的非常不可取喔那當然我們今天主要是針對這個總預算的追加案那我們也知道說今年度本來編列的這個總預算本來就是史上最高"},{"start":8508.689,"end":8530.015,"text":"那即使是最後公佈的也有兩兆九千兩百五十億那加上今天行政院又要追加的八百七十八億追加的部分我們可以看一下有三大部分前兩項部分是法定的義務支出那結果你們把其他單位被刪除回編的部分也列進來總共有一百九十七億"},{"start":8531.115,"end":8548.013,"text":"那我們可以看到這兩個單位是屬於法定營運支出然後其他的被刪減回補的這種混合編列的方式喔根本就是在拿政府、人民拿地方的政府還有人民還有原住民"},{"start":8548.753,"end":8562.654,"text":"當作肉票我們要解決中央地方共同的困難要不要追加這個問題不是發生在中央就是發生在地方我們請中央跟地方一起共體實踐"},{"start":8564.176,"end":8582.715,"text":"院長那這197億元你覺不覺得根本就是在把人民當作提款機也是覺得立法把人民當作提款機啊哪裏的197億197億就是你單位被刪減回編的部分啊因為你把他跟一般性補助款跟原住民的進保補償條例混在一起送進來這個總預算的追加案"},{"start":8583.075,"end":8604.126,"text":"那不就是把人民把這個原住民還有地方政府當作肉票我們有逐項分開編列啊你現在不就是這樣編列嗎就是197億是單位被刪減回編我幫你統計好了有逐項分開在裡面編列我知道但我幫你統計好了數目就是這樣子那另外呢我們可以看到在這個我們先來看看這個"},{"start":8606.431,"end":8615.354,"text":"追加預算這個編列的有多離譜你可以看一下我們幫你這個統計出來的表在112年呢3減300億那3減數是1.1%決算結餘有607億113年呢3減數是299億3減率是1.04%那決算是672億好我們在114年度如果"},{"start":8630.538,"end":8648.504,"text":"不含台電補助的1000億的話大概是3.55%如果你今天通過的追加預算878億通過之後刪減率來到多少只剩0.65%只剩0.65%是史上最低即便是你們在"},{"start":8650.869,"end":8668.073,"text":"過去八年執政國會最大黨的時代都還這個三減數都有1.1 1.04現在是0.65三減率不是拿來做競爭比較型的跟哪一年比較這不是競爭比較這只是告訴你這不是在競爭比較這只是告訴你目前的這個狀況0.65%是史上最低那當然你們現在迴邊了"},{"start":8677.996,"end":8694.791,"text":"這麼多的這個高額的追加預算我們可以看得出來雖然說立法院一開始刪減了一千零七十五億幫人民這個省下不少的血汗錢但是你現在又回編了八百七十八億所以說回編這麼高的一個追加預算心態非常可預"},{"start":8695.612,"end":8724.772,"text":"我們就在玩弄這個政府的一個預算那我們先來看我們先從你行政院本身的預算來看好我們有分為幾個部分那回編率是48.83%那我們先從一般行政來看我們當時會刪減是因為行政院的職場霸凌還有部分的政務委員的任命有問題以及行政院聯合服務中心的正副執行長被拿來做政治酬庸因此刪減相關的預算現在回編"},{"start":8725.452,"end":8727.739,"text":"2925萬"},{"start":8728.154,"end":8751.381,"text":"高達55.7%所以是不是又要來酬傭特定人呢再來聯合服務中心的經費之所以三減是因為他所併用的助理很多都是一些酬傭性質所以我們認為不該把我們的這個中部的服務中心或全台的服務中心當作一個安插這個政治酬傭的一個地方現在追加預算要回編3652萬高達96.4%"},{"start":8756.823,"end":8780.282,"text":"當時我們有請行政院要提出具體的檢討方案請問現在有出來了嗎所以過去半年行政院的聯合副中心的人員到處在配合這個宣講大罷免造謠立法院亂刪預算現在卻要追加96.4%的這樣子的一個預算請問合理嗎你們有提出這個我們的具體檢討的方案出來嗎"},{"start":8781.192,"end":8796.898,"text":"行政院各地的服務中心的人員有哪一位去配合大罷免請委員指出來我們來處理好 會後我一定會提供給你絕對有如果沒有的話請委員支持絕對有請絕對有這個絕對不會空口說辦法會後我一定會告訴你"},{"start":8797.478,"end":8818.443,"text":"那當然行政院的執行長你們任用的這個服務中心的執行長副執行長其實看都是說實在都是酬庸的一個性質那我們也有很多的例子現在因為時間的關係我會後一定會整理給院長如果是的話您是不是就要把這個預算給他吞回去就刪減讓他刪減了根本不該用這樣的方式剛剛你說嘛"},{"start":8819.983,"end":8838.9,"text":"如果說沒有的話那你請我支持如果有的話你要不要把這些人都砍掉我們把各部會現在遇到的困難再一次向大院來講我們就來做這樣一個協議就是如果是這樣的話那我同意這筆預算回復如果不是的話我請你把這筆預算刪減"},{"start":8840.161,"end":8866.016,"text":"我再來看一下各部會的追加狀況就內政部追加率有95.4%外交部的追加率有151.3%環境部的追加率有59.1%當然行政院跟轄下的17個單位追加率是327.5那海委會也追加了139許多部會都追加超過50%那當然追加率這麼高"},{"start":8867.967,"end":8890.295,"text":"有符合我們的財政紀律嗎那立法院還要審預算嗎我們審的我們覺得浮邊爛邊的刪除凍結之後就你們又把它追加回來這樣還有這個財政預算嗎我們還需要審預算嗎下個會期我們還要審115年的預算嗎我們是以原預算收支剩餘來編這一次的追加預算所以沒有舉債所以這個不掀設任何財政紀律"},{"start":8891.075,"end":8920.508,"text":"我們還是嚴守財政紀律其實你們已經嚴重的違反了這個預算法第79條我們預算法第79條的預算的這個編列的規定是應該要有其中這幾項那目前看起來呢並沒有這些狀況因為好比如第三項因應重大事故的關係可是這一次不管是關稅的不管是風災的不管是其他這個國防的我們其實都已經編列了特別預算來去做所以為什麼還要追加這些預算我覺得"},{"start":8921.148,"end":8940.453,"text":"這樣子其實拿納稅人的錢在這邊開玩笑我覺得真的不是我們行政院該做的事情喔那還有來我們看一下媒體宣傳費提出了4億2906萬的追加預算迴遍率達55.84%這也非常的不合理院長你知道在政論節目都在怎麼罵在野黨嗎怎麼護航執政黨嗎"},{"start":8943.217,"end":8971.304,"text":"院長你知道嗎我們是在編制在行政院內部的媒宣費用院長你來看電視節目是不是知道政論節目怎麼在罵在野黨你有看過嗎你今天晚上可以去看一下政論節目喔沒關係你怎麼轉怎麼哪一台都一樣我從51台到57台都有看都在罵在野黨有啦51台到57台都有看所以院長你知不知道這次賴清德主席所聘任的就是民視的主持人擔任他的秘書長"},{"start":8972.554,"end":8990.428,"text":"那過去這一年多來他就是在這政論節目不斷的罵在野黨 詆毀在野黨而且民視在每年大概都可以拿到四億左右的宣傳費所以院長你說看看這樣子的一個我們的沒宣費用要怎麼能夠追加回來呢"},{"start":8990.908,"end":9015.933,"text":"所以交回來就是在罵在野黨而不是真正為你們宣傳該有的這個政策你知道嗎那天在一個政論節目主持人有問三位民主黨員說你們知不知道過去這一年來這個由民進黨執政的這個執政團隊有什麼政策你們想得起來的他們回答什麼有啊就是自愛難行然後咧 富裕然後視線"},{"start":9017.54,"end":9043.344,"text":"他們就回答這樣的問題這也是一般民眾的想法但是光是這三件真的讓我們自在難行這是大家最常聽到院長講的一句話那為什麼會自在難行呢因為我們講過這樣的原因不能把這些帽子都扣到立法院身上為什麼會自在難行其實你很清楚行政院要負最大的責任賴總統要負最大的責任我們再來看一下中選會的追加預算"},{"start":9046.445,"end":9061.214,"text":"因為本席在內政委員會所以我在5月12號的時候我曾經詢問過中選會的主委李敬勇我說針對今年的我們的這個相關的罷免經費跟公投的經費你有沒有編列預算來我們請"},{"start":9062.334,"end":9081.617,"text":"你沒有辦法變入年度的預算所以下來罷免案的經費都是申請行政院動資第二預備金罷免案會用行政院的第二預備金是嗎就是我們俗稱的救命錢是嗎我們會向行政院申請動用第二預備金"},{"start":9083.14,"end":9111.187,"text":"李靜蓉主委本人也在現場當時我在5月的時候請教您5月12號請教您質詢您的時候你說會動用二倍金現在我們也看到針對第11屆立法院的罷免案跟全國性的公民投票已經在7月間已經兩度向行政院申請動之第二預備金總共有15億左右院長也已經核准了我們可以看一下"},{"start":9112.367,"end":9126.177,"text":"那所以都已經動用第二餘倍金了為什麼在這個時候還要追加預算請問院長為什麼要重複的編列因為向來的罷免動用二倍金沒有錯因為都是單一事件那這次由公民團體發送的罷免"},{"start":9128.53,"end":9148.037,"text":"案件相當的大完全用第二日備金的話 您也說那是救命錢如果這個追加預算通過我們就可以歸電給第二日備金第二日備金在有需要的時候我們就用到更需要的用途今年度的第二日備金還有剩多少今年編列80億 現在還有剩多少現在已經幾月了"},{"start":9150.698,"end":9157.981,"text":"現在已經快要9月了過去這8個月來你們用的錢還剩下未來4個月還有剩下30多億那我剛已經提了不管是風災不管是我們都提出的特別條例那也不會再用到這方面的錢剩下4個月你還有30多億可以用而且是扣掉這15億假設你再回過來"},{"start":9175.347,"end":9184.039,"text":"是變成了四五十億那未來的四個月你還有用到這個有可能用到這樣子這麼多的錢嗎報告委員四五億裡面有十一億是公投"},{"start":9184.642,"end":9205.031,"text":"我知道我的意思是說都已經動用二倍金了你這時候又再追加回來而實際上最後用到了這些這還有三十幾億加上這十五億可能有將近五十億我們先電池出去了二倍金先動大概還有將近五十億如果再把這個十五億還回來你最後這四個月你有這麼多的二倍金"},{"start":9206.471,"end":9232.645,"text":"二倍金委員說的很好 就是救命錢如果不需要用到 我們不會把它浪費掉為什麼在這個時候要追加這樣的預算因為以過去九個月來 事實上你們花掉的其實都絕對大概只有二三十億而已你還有三十幾億的經費所以說我們也覺得很奇怪這段時間你們是還要下鄉去做一些這個什麼委員可以問主席講 我是控管得很嚴喔"},{"start":9233.565,"end":9258.38,"text":"還要下去這種財神爺嗎還有四個月的時間所以我覺得追加預算不可以用這樣一個重複編列的方式如果有需要當然隨時我們都可以追加預算我跟委員說明一下我們這次申請動用預備金因為之前沒有辦法預料有這麼多的案子而且這次動用第二預備金達到15億這是史上從來沒有過的當然會排擠到第二預備金的用途"},{"start":9261.502,"end":9267.432,"text":"那因為時間的關係我只有最後一個問題要請教我要請教這個院長不好意思主委那可以暫停嗎主席因為我其實還有一個問題要請教院長好"},{"start":9274.565,"end":9286.212,"text":"還有一個問題就是針對內政部追加的預算我們可以看到有一個叫做網路科技運用精進計劃這個原計劃數是原列是44億9600萬我們這個通案刪減了4億多所以決算計劃改成40億9545萬可是你們這一次的追加預算有2881億迴編率高達95.4%"},{"start":9302.122,"end":9319.346,"text":"那根據本席查過之後該計畫在1月到7月尚無執行數所以預算都還沒有執行為什麼要追加4億多報告委員我再回應一下因為網路流量科的部分的話一定要等到全額到位的時候才對喔 你們在7月8號已經針對網路科技運用計畫的技術顧問採購案"},{"start":9337.593,"end":9339.055,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9349.619,"end":9356.183,"text":"好 謝謝徐宇臻委員指詢 謝謝卓院長 三觀部會首長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請陳廷飛委員指詢賴世保委員請準備謝謝院長 我們是不是請卓院長備詢謝謝"},{"start":9381.389,"end":9407.725,"text":"陳國元好院長我覺得追加預算的內容大家可以討論但是如果用一竿子打翻一傳人說這個根本不需要追加預算啦你們提出來是浪費公堂這部分我無法接受這878.4億的部分我相信這裡面如果把它用各部會的數額然後就說你怎麼會編這麼多"},{"start":9409.286,"end":9434.844,"text":"但請問有沒有看到裡面的細項這裡面的細項都是我們一直在媒體當中在質疑行政院在質疑執政黨的我們現在把它回編回來用追加預算有什麼不對我們就說大家都認為原住民保留地進法補償很需要很需要都用這個來質疑我們很需要所以我們用追加預算把它編進來"},{"start":9435.965,"end":9442.943,"text":"有何錯誤再來提升國軍的待遇這個部分他們常常說我們不重視國軍"},{"start":9444.707,"end":9460.833,"text":"可是我們從穩固我們的國防戰力然後給我們的志願群務加級戰鬥部隊的加級資訊勤務的加級電訊偵測官兵勤務加級還有戰航官兵勤務加級"},{"start":9466.535,"end":9475.382,"text":"這個部分從加急的部分來提升我們的國軍待遇甚至來協助我們的國防部海委會等等請問"},{"start":9477.908,"end":9501.64,"text":"這有什麼不對這有必要嗎有必要啊因為沒有編進去的時候他一直用這個打我們說我們不重視國軍所以我們要不要追加預算當然要追加預算把我們砍掉了然後說我們不重視這好不好笑很好笑然後呢我們的外交執行量呢這重不重要沒有錢你怎麼做外交"},{"start":9502.731,"end":9526.616,"text":"你沒有執行怎麼做外交而且現在國際情勢變化的這麼大我們要不要做外交 要啊我們要對外讓人家看到我們台灣的光看到我們台灣的亮能所以外交的執行量很重要我們要變這一筆預算要11億再來其實最重要的"},{"start":9527.574,"end":9551.041,"text":"就是每個縣市都在罵你說行政院怎麼可以刪我們的一般補助奇怪了一方面要罵現在要把他追加預算撥補回來他們也在罵那到底是怎麼一回事所以這個一般補助要不要要不要編要編了"},{"start":9552.079,"end":9572.482,"text":"在行政院院會都有跟列席的地方首長請他們支持也請他們該縣市的委員能夠支持讓我們一起把這個事情解決把這個問題解決嘛一開始每個縣市的縣市首長都開記者會罵行政院說這個不能刪好啊那不能刪"},{"start":9573.803,"end":9598.244,"text":"符合大家的意思全部把它用追加預算追回來這有什麼不對再來就是我們自己本身從我們行政院要來協助各地方的部分這個部分重不重要很重要啊這部分如果我們沒有編的話這裡面有多少治水"},{"start":9599.266,"end":9620.544,"text":"就是他們講的從內政部從我們的農業部經濟部的部分來我們農業這個內政部的部分這內政部這個下水道管理污水下水道還有相關的治水建設現在我們的抽水站都做了但是"},{"start":9621.843,"end":9645.752,"text":"院長 我們的抽水站基本上都是後面來偵測的也就是我們認為現在要韌性治水我們必須要有抽水站來做強硬的一個抽水就是從內水抽到外水但是我們這些抽水站都是我們現在找尋適合的位置所設置出來的"},{"start":9646.752,"end":9671.328,"text":"但是我們現在必須靠著我們的排水相含慢慢地把水 慢慢地能夠排到我們的抽水站這樣它比較有水啦 比較有水啦不會說裡面在淹水結果抽水站在抽水 抽不到水因為你要把所有的排水系統都往我們的抽水站下去做建設"},{"start":9672.953,"end":9678.505,"text":"這就是為什麼內政部現在非常重要就是我們的排水系統 湘寒系統"},{"start":9680.071,"end":9706.034,"text":"所以我覺得現在國民黨一直講說這個如果再用追加預算把它撥回來算我們的整個三減預算數是史上最低這什麼理由啊我們編的預算就是必要性只是因為你們有一些思考方向跟我們的執政黨不一樣所以你們把它刪除掉"},{"start":9706.815,"end":9729.336,"text":"但是就是因為我們認為現在非常需要尤其這幾個颱風下來這幾個好雨下來這已經都沒有辦法用我們現在的狀況去預估現在是極端氣候所以第二預備金他說四個月我覺得四個月如果沒有預備四五十億在那邊等"},{"start":9730.396,"end":9752.436,"text":"什麼時候要發生問題不知道耶我們要預備萬一啦我們當然希望平安無事對 我們希望平安無事最好啊我們有這個比較充裕的時候就可以幫助更多對 我們四五十億最好最後都沒有用到還到國庫這是最好可是我們沒有辦法沒有預備這個如果今天沒有特別預算這幾十萬你要開料啊"},{"start":9753.917,"end":9779.339,"text":"對不對這是因為丹納斯颱風跟豪雨有特別預算說我們編了600億如果沒有這600億你這第二季北京炸的不夠了啦沒有錯而且是缺很大是不是所以我覺得因為有整個趨勢的改變你不能說用現代的狀況然後說請問你四個月你可以開五六十億嗎"},{"start":9782.54,"end":9810.291,"text":"我再次強調這不是一年用比例來算該用多少我們還是很管控的現在是極端氣候現在是極端氣候我再次強調現在是極端氣候任何人都沒有辦法跟天去做比賽我們一定要預備很多的資源隨時做人民最後的一個支持我們當然再次強調我們不希望"},{"start":9811.943,"end":9836.316,"text":"我們有任何的天災需要去用到這筆錢可是我們必須要準備所以在這個部分我們一直強調的滯水為什麼那麼重要院長你有去看到曾文熙你有去看曾文熙的分紅去見證可是我當下也跟院長強調17年"},{"start":9839.601,"end":9852.647,"text":"從我第一年擔任立委我們一直在做這些整治到分紅你看總經費是87.76億總長是多少12.57公里完成治理的10.37公里含橋樑改建總金額是58.93億再來"},{"start":9864.633,"end":9888.243,"text":"因為我們多做了12天的疏洪相含就是我們的分洪我們把壓力解除掉所以這裡面多少19億院長你當天站的那個地方就是19億然後現在我說的最後一里路就是在去年剛好年底核准的2.2公里的部分總共多少10億"},{"start":9891.115,"end":9914.855,"text":"所以你知道過去在12點就是您站的位置12點幾乎電視媒體一定都報因為他幾乎都要三天退水時間要三天我都去上便當我都倒了水然後趕快把一些我們的弱勢朋友趕快把他移出來"},{"start":9917.142,"end":9929.416,"text":"當時我們這段時間都在做這些事情包括現在宮廷寮那天里長就說剛好現在在做這些最後一里路的工程所以他們這次沒有淹水"},{"start":9931.181,"end":9954.131,"text":"所以院長為什麼我一直強調治水預算一定要一次到位而且不只這些我必須講的這裡面還有什麼你知道在這一段時間我們八八大家都說我們一開去到位我可以一點一滴跟大家說我可以講三天三夜因為大家沒了解過"},{"start":9955.595,"end":9979.769,"text":"大家所看到的都是現在的狀況可是我們一路來走了那麼久包括當時候八八水災的時候你知道安南區整片淹水北區整片淹水都是我的選區可是現在沒有了我們做了多少包括抽水站包括湘涵包括大小排水"},{"start":9980.919,"end":9990.762,"text":"我們走了多久錢就是花在這裡然後大家看到的安中和現在也沒有了這也是湘寒"},{"start":9992.233,"end":10019.771,"text":"再來 我們所看到的整個安南區就是用抽水站在湘海把它做一個整治因為它是古柏龍啊以前這些都是自然的海綿有溫度 有冷凍 都會滴水現在沒有了現在都蓋房子起來了還有北區也是一樣我小時候就住在陰水的地方啦爸爸你知道嗎 家裡在陰水我們是放著 然後"},{"start":10021.092,"end":10047.577,"text":"請消防車趕快幫我們載出去因為地方的地緣關係我們最清楚哪邊淹水哪邊需要送便當我們最清楚我們是用橡皮艇然後把便當掛到二樓那是這樣一路走過來的文賢路一帶整個然後包括我們南區還有仁德山野溪都是一樣都是當時候這樣一次而定我們看了多少次"},{"start":10048.772,"end":10057.399,"text":"可是為什麼都要這樣傷害我們說我們的治水預算花到哪裡去了如果沒有這些治水預算我相信"},{"start":10058.786,"end":10079.531,"text":"我們沒有辦法讓我們人民更有感因為有可能我們淹水的範圍更大現在我們是一直在縮 把淹水範圍縮小包括我們的做制洪池你覺得在中共共產黨一個制洪池就把他們所有的裡內的問題全部解決"},{"start":10080.922,"end":10097.592,"text":"在地滯洪的觀念必須要推動下去沒錯 所以本來就是要用新的概念去解決現在目前新舊部落的一個承接問題這個是沒有辦法的從永康 淹水面積說真的 院長"},{"start":10098.573,"end":10116.065,"text":"我覺得如果要說我們治水預算花到哪裡去的同時請把舊資料翻出來看從88一路來我們88特別條例然後在我們的前瞻然後現在我馬上又要編一個延續性的"},{"start":10116.505,"end":10129.566,"text":"未來有四年一千億而且針對的是縣市管河川的改善過去都是中央管河川中央做縣市管河川縣市做我們補助這是我們是全部把縣市管河川我們希望解決"},{"start":10130.828,"end":10146.042,"text":"源頭或是末端的這些問題以後委員不要那麼辛苦幫助那麼多辛苦的國人院長你這個真的太重要你知道嗎為什麼曾文希排水會17年因為他中央管排特別預算只能補助縣市管排"},{"start":10146.542,"end":10175.124,"text":"就是這樣子中央縣市分道陽標變成沒有辦法整合如果我們未來這一千億四年一千億你知道我們可以有多少可以一次到位來解決地方的治水問題明年我們編了一百四十七億雖然在中央財政目前因為新財化法非常拮据的情況底下我們還是跟委員說的一樣該做的優先做必須要做的中央還是把治水列為很重要的優先工作"},{"start":10175.66,"end":10199.194,"text":"院長從小就住在一個會淹水的地方從小你可不可以知道我們的第一件事就是爸爸媽媽叫你走起來我跟姑姑因為喝醉了 他們要把他墊高然後一路來從議員到立委我們所看到的就是怎麼把我們的淹水面積把它縮小"},{"start":10200.134,"end":10220.866,"text":"我們第一時間到現場會看我們知道會被罵可是我們可以了解問題出在哪裡這才是最重要的所以治水預算真的很重要我們要拜託不能再有任何刪減的問題所以這個我們會全力支持請委員跟大院委員共同來支持這些必要的預算"},{"start":10221.266,"end":10249.929,"text":"然後院長從這一次其實風災的部分我想有幾個我們要成為任性城市任性國家我們的電纜地下化要拜託這個一定要做這個不能不做因為電纜地下化你看倒了光台南2000多支的電感這個部分不做不行還有我們地下管線供購的問題因為我們目前很多的地下管線的圖資並沒有建立起來"},{"start":10251.19,"end":10272.716,"text":"所以如何建立我們的圖資這很重要還有我們的通訊防災在我們通訊防災的SOP就是在災前的預防我們如何備齊所有的我們的行動基地台然後在如果發生災情的時候我們要怎麼第一線到地方"},{"start":10273.576,"end":10283.542,"text":"我們的地圖 我們所有的配置該怎麼做這些一定要做這才能成為任性城市 任性國家這個要拜託院長"},{"start":10297.028,"end":10318.71,"text":"接下來我們在一場二樓旁聽來自各大專院校參加2025年模擬立法院所有營隊的同學們我們掌聲歡迎各位同學接下來我們請賴世寶委員質詢翁曉琳委員請準備"},{"start":10323.506,"end":10351.951,"text":"謝謝主席韓院長 卓院長以及各位先進那麼有請這個卓院長以及財政部的莊部長麻煩請卓院長財政部備詢代理委員好兩位長官好那麼最新的一個外媒報導"},{"start":10354.808,"end":10372.873,"text":"說這個川普要對全世界國家對美國的高科技的公司課數位稅他要用增加關稅來反制我就請教莊部長我們有沒有課數位稅"},{"start":10374.487,"end":10394.515,"text":"目前為止我們並沒有所謂的課數位他這裡面數位是這樣子你要把它仔細弄清楚他是線上就是說比如說Meta他的線上廣告的服務數位的媒介服務平台服務都有在台灣都有做你們不是要課稅嗎"},{"start":10396.115,"end":10421.366,"text":"這不是數位稅嗎我們目前對於境外的電商確實有課相關的稅有啊但數位服務稅是沒有課所以台灣要請院長交代副院長如果川普這個事情的時候說台灣是沒有課數位稅否則他要報復了好 那個莊部長請回"},{"start":10425.56,"end":10437.433,"text":"我要提到這一次的追加預算追加預算我們看到追加預算其實就是借私還魂"},{"start":10438.905,"end":10467.902,"text":"把我們原來立法院刪掉的經過刪讀的你一個一個藉這個機會把它要回來所以老實講這個立法院也讓你進來然後也跟你討論其實立法院展現善意的謝謝我希望我們能夠理性討論給個mercy但是你不能夠這個藉機啊就這樣子卡油不好啦那個卓院長來我給你算一個算清楚啦"},{"start":10469.485,"end":10489.634,"text":"我們來看我們去年總共刪減了2075億扣掉台電1000億只有1075億1075億你要878億如果通用給你就剩下197億一除以你收進來3.1兆等於0.63%史上最低的"},{"start":10494.654,"end":10512.968,"text":"裡面有幾項新增預算請委員要算進去史上過去10年最低的就是去年1%所以我給1%來做標準的話應該要3314億"},{"start":10515.906,"end":10534.983,"text":"310億以現在來講的話我們現在來講的話已經剩下197所以310億減掉197你這一次的878億我們最少要算113億才符合才符合一趴那我告訴你院長你先不要急"},{"start":10536.264,"end":10560.458,"text":"我們因為審理的追加預算特別幫我們時間我們這個朝野協商幫我們排到排的時間好趕我就一天禮拜四我當召委我要排質詢還有質詢完畢以後 詢答完畢以後審查一般預算 審查機密預算又要詢答 又要審查"},{"start":10561.479,"end":10585.046,"text":"一天我那天可能到12點謝謝委員再次表示感謝我跟你講我們這樣用心在處理可是院長老實講你這個吃立法院夠不夠這不是好的舞蹈模式來你聽我講因為老實講我們回過來第二章因為636億我跟你講我這樣審已經被外面學者罵臭頭"},{"start":10591.425,"end":10619.215,"text":"被學者罵臭頭被輿論罵臭頭為什麼這樣子他說你們在外黨大贏代表你們砍預算社會是支持的啊為什麼你們完全配合這個民進黨呼嚕呼嚕呼嚕呼嚕開快車都沒有好好審查外界質疑外界罵我啊學者罵我啊打電話來罵我啊政大教授打電話來罵我台大教授打電話來罵我你是怎樣啦"},{"start":10620.307,"end":10647.202,"text":"怎麼會怎麼會你們照理講你們是銀方啊怎麼會完全因為國家還是要我們合作國家往前走為什麼Police 我不知道為什麼為什麼把時間定的這麼窄我就一天的時間要巡打然後要處理沒有人這麼好的啦沒有人這麼好的所以我們只能拜託大家委員我現在就告訴你我現在就告訴你我們就很簡單"},{"start":10648.547,"end":10663.279,"text":"大科目處理 黨團大科目處理什麼錢該給你 回到第一章什麼 我再一次講過了什麼錢可以給你636億可以給你其他我也是不同意的喔因為636是你們刪掉不應該刪"},{"start":10666.974,"end":10688.991,"text":"啊 你們刪掉了然後呢 我們現在給你代表你們刪的對那就我們不對啦 代表我們不對啦我們共同來解決問題 謝謝委員代表我們不對啦來 我先跟你講 我們整個來看的話呢就是什麼 就是636億軍人加薪60億 要給進法補償23.4億 要給公投10億 要給"},{"start":10693.74,"end":10703.344,"text":"其他剩下145億照理講要全部砍那我還客氣一點外交的部分我請委員再斟酌外交的部分你們也不需要了"},{"start":10704.502,"end":10732.856,"text":"因為有些 他這裡面有一些場館設備啊確實是需要整建的外交的設備啊 我只有砍兩我只有砍七億多啦我們有委員等一下要私信了他全部砍掉 二十一億全部砍掉我都支持他 他砍得比我更準我就砍七億 他砍二十一億等一下下一位委員就要執行這個請委員再審慎的看看內容對於外交人員以及一些硬體設備現在我就告訴你 我堅持"},{"start":10734.417,"end":10755.402,"text":"我們不能夠立法院出去以後被人家吐口水說啊你現在都贏了還要這樣百般的好像奉承立行政院怎麼會這個樣子呢照理講我們這樣可以抬頭行兇我們都贏了怎麼變成一個小綿羊不敢動你這個不敢動你那個我就主張最少3113億"},{"start":10757.262,"end":10777.513,"text":"這樣才有一趴而已喔 這樣我才一趴而已所以院長你回去認真去思考 處紀長什麼地方可以刪 113億包委讓我說明一下好不好因為我們當初本來刪了400多億嘛那如果減掉133億這個部分沒有刪 因為我們這次提報"},{"start":10780.555,"end":10803.78,"text":"恢復的部分就是133億那這133億大部分都是指定三減譬如說出國經費他指定三六十億那很多單位他是覺得執行有困難那所以這個部分需要恢復的部分所以這是細節的部分但是133億縱使你把它恢復他也是達到三減百分之一的一趴"},{"start":10805.26,"end":10818.621,"text":"我們立法院有預算中心他就噴起立法院的委員我覺得很丟臉他說你們現在只有30.6億如果你全部給他你們實質"},{"start":10820.664,"end":10824.626,"text":"這133億當中有道路交通的"},{"start":10847.476,"end":10863.49,"text":"這個建設還有農業部的防洪智山防洪的消費請他們先不要講話讓我講完可以嗎讓我講完好不好我都仔細看了謝謝讓我講完到現在為止878億如果都給你一毛錢沒刪那就是0.63立法院的預算中心"},{"start":10873.547,"end":10888.167,"text":"噴擠啊學者噴擠啊媒體噴擠啊在野黨失職在野黨贏了本來贏了怎麼被小民養軟趴趴的我看了好難過我在野黨的意願而且第二個時間把我壓縮得這麼緊"},{"start":10891.287,"end":10915.216,"text":"時間包圍要說一天可以處理我是趙薇還要我自身我知道怎麼處理我可以handle我願意幫忙但是院長不可以遲鈍勾勾為什麼遲鈍勾勾我們再看下一張你知道嗎你們追加一項怎麼編的居然有編100萬以下有77個單位編就是我上次跟你講的"},{"start":10916.687,"end":10944.482,"text":"難怪人家會講啊 就到處你家每個部會都隨便提啊第一個高檢署 法務部的高檢署最佳2.3萬 笑死人了再來勞動基金運用局最佳6.1億民用航空局最佳8億國家圖書館最佳10億再來智慧財產商院的法院最佳10億"},{"start":10946.086,"end":10973.136,"text":"笑死人啦這個一百萬元以下你們可以追加都沒錢這樣這個就是什麼就是因為你要求他們編歐北編的這還要更離譜來來來你再看來來先不要急不要急主席拜託讓他們先不要講話來還有什麼一萬塊以下的追加多少衛福部增加四千塊啊"},{"start":10975.134,"end":11001.053,"text":"追加四千塊也在追加經濟部追加四千勞動部增加四千國發會增加六千入委會不要急入委會增加八千農業部增加一萬你怎麼好意思追加預算五千塊六千塊也在追加衛福部我們這次審查預算讓你們增加306億"},{"start":11003.311,"end":11020.464,"text":"讓你增加306億結果你要增加4000塊然後勞動部給你增加57億結果你要增加4000塊結果國發會增加8.76億你要增加6000塊農業部增加63億總預算你增加1萬各位"},{"start":11023.899,"end":11048.95,"text":"我們這樣子追加拿得出來嗎 蔡院長 更小啊你這個幾千塊也要追加 我都不好意思刪啦這個不只要是指令刪減 而且禁止流用那這個不照常 四千塊不是 但是有一些是屬於主管的一個特別會的不怕金額就不大 丟臉丟屎啦我們限制他 副機長 丟臉丟屎啦我們只能限制他丟臉丟屎啦 對不對 你看一個衛護部增加四千塊"},{"start":11052.283,"end":11068.836,"text":"一定不增加4000塊請委員在未來審查的時候詳細的看一下也請各部會能提出說明他們依照現在被刪減之後所造成的困難予以著補回來而已那如果委員認為哪一項不合理"},{"start":11069.136,"end":11085.762,"text":"我們當然接受 但是請容許容許各部會 容許不要定這個數字來刪啦是要用政策來刪除不是 不要用定數字來刪除"},{"start":11087.442,"end":11113.677,"text":"預算中心一直在罵你訂一個數字那一定要刪到那個程度這樣不好 我說用政策政策的推動來刪除 合理的刪除你當過立委你也知道我們不會去訂一個數字再來刪我們跟老柯就先講好一個總額大概都是1%左右有時候1.2% 有時候1.1%那這一次比較特殊 這次沒有先框起來以前就是老柯跟我們先框起來"},{"start":11114.838,"end":11136.809,"text":"就不會有那種老哥後來盤古開天亂鬧一通鬧得整個新台會都是亂七八糟的他就是盤國開天開始講起他這一次沒有狂起來但是以前我在這裡這麼久以前每年預算審查我都在他都先框一個總額大家再來談細項"},{"start":11139.651,"end":11164.168,"text":"總額談都是1%起跳沒有沒有1%的 到現在為止878億給你就是剩0.63不可能通通給你 那要算多少最少113 起來1%而已1%是史上最低的 史上最低就1%如果今天通通878都給你的話那就0.63 那史上最低的最低的最低的最低的"},{"start":11164.908,"end":11189.057,"text":"這樣子丟臉丟屎的以前都可以自行調整那現在都限定不准留用所以這就是因為它有限制不能留用所以就是你指定三年的項目就會變成有它的調整的一個困難而且還指定項目我的目標就是最少113最好是120到130最好130的話可以到1.1%然後然後客戶讓你自行調整"},{"start":11193.539,"end":11207.567,"text":"我還是建議委員不要用設定數字我們看他的政策推動的需要與否這樣會比較真實因為你這個追加預算完全就是就像行政院多了多少把它拿回來的你多了31億"},{"start":11209.008,"end":11227.915,"text":"外交部多了幾億啊 還有媒體多了4億多 剛才委員都提到了那個都是 我約了3年1塊錢 你要5塊錢回來沒有 我們並沒有增加啊都增加了 有啊 行政院增加30億我們只是增加133億 扣掉新增的部分之外"},{"start":11228.815,"end":11249.761,"text":"我們還是三減 應該兩百多億行政院主管有包括中選會有包括園民會所以他們就會變成有一些相關的經費增加我們說行政院主管的範圍相當大行政院增加了最多三十億但是院本部裡面沒有增加這麼多我講的增加是增加跟減掉扣掉的是淨增加"},{"start":11257.605,"end":11276.778,"text":"好 謝謝賴世保委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢 謝謝接下來登記第九位賴會員委員之質詢以書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來我們請登記第十號翁曉琳委員質詢吳麗華委員請準備"},{"start":11285.417,"end":11288.341,"text":"主席好 在這邊有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":11299.108,"end":11325.118,"text":"黃委員好院長好我在這邊很快講幾個重點第一個就是我們知道其實一百一十四年我們中央政府總預算案可以說是創下歷史新高那麼在一百一十四年我們通過了兩兆九千兩百五十億比十年前的預算多了一兆什麼叫一兆的概念就是一萬個億那麼如果我們平均台灣兩千四百"},{"start":11326.618,"end":11351.744,"text":"2340萬的人口的話平均每個人每年交給政府12.7萬的管理費一家四口大概就是交了差不多50萬的管理費給政府去管理去治理可是你們看看民進黨政府執政這九年大概是揮霍誠信所以就不知道說要量入為出要勤儉持家還記得這個童子賢董事長他之前還在講"},{"start":11352.344,"end":11375.922,"text":"我們明明就可以花一塊多的電的成本去買核電你偏偏要用這個貴了四五倍的錢去買綠電去製造綠電然後或者是說兩三倍的錢去買天然氣所以由此可見現在賴政府就是不會持家卓院長您認為您是個好管家嗎您會持家嗎您會量入為出嗎"},{"start":11376.857,"end":11401.995,"text":"我們真的量入為出啊而且國家的經濟成長是相當明顯的我們今年已經突破26兆的整體GDP說實在話 您認為您會執交我還真的是覺得你是往臉上貼金我們知道現在民眾普遍認為這一年來賴總統上任這一年多來台灣是風不調雨 不睡國不嘆"},{"start":11403.496,"end":11415.457,"text":"民不安我們看到卓內閣的政績似乎是只有政治惡鬥搞大罷免尤其是823之後大家其實民眾期待要重新組閣那卓院長你會繼續留任嗎"},{"start":11416.92,"end":11437.367,"text":"我有向總統提出應該負起政治責任總統希望把過去的工作能夠繼續的延續也未來破壞新的計畫希望局勢能夠穩定下來如果說您繼續留任大概也就是老狗並不做什麼新把戲未來就是跟立法院的互動仍然是至愛難行 負應 釋懈到不執行"},{"start":11439.209,"end":11453.35,"text":"這對行政院來講都是被動的其實在這一次行政院這邊提出了最佳預算就本席看來基本上根本就是不合法違法我們知道其實提出最佳預算最重要的法源依據是什麼"},{"start":11455.137,"end":11479.482,"text":"是预算法第七十九条对啊就是预算法七十九条跟八十条嘛对不对尤其是追加预算的这个预算法在七十九条里面讲得很清楚有四个要件而在四个要件里面大概我认为除了就是我们现在讲的这个要补贴禁法补偿条例还有军人以及海巡人员的这些这个"},{"start":11480.582,"end":11501.53,"text":"加擠預算經費是可以符合現在的預算法第79條第4項依有關法律應補列追加預算其餘的部分現在行政院提出的施政計畫這100多億根本就不符合預算法第79條的規定請問是有發生什麼重大事故嗎"},{"start":11503.439,"end":11527.208,"text":"我們有發生重大事故嗎我們在今天有超過法定預算的編列嗎你們提出的三足預算過於龐大集中特定項目不準流用重大事故所以請教我們過去曾有前例在過往的時候行政立法兩院曾經用過這一條來解決預算上面的問題所以我想請問對卓院長您來說什麼樣子的三減比例才叫做合理的比例"},{"start":11527.668,"end":11543.786,"text":"我從來不以比例來衡量是一毛都不能刪嗎所以我們這次刪的已經是不要用三減比例三減比例不是拿來競爭用的我要講的就是說這次你們所提的預算基本上是"},{"start":11547.85,"end":11559.997,"text":"符合預算法裡面第79條所講的因為重大事故發生重大事故經費超過法定預算好我們在這邊呢很快再舉幾個例子因為其他的委員其實也都講了我就不再重複"},{"start":11561.567,"end":11578.225,"text":"我要特别讲就是以这个中选会的这个案子来说你明明他过去办理选举罢免共同的经费全部都是透过动用第二预备金而且你们已经也核定了现在又再重新编列追加预算这样合理吗"},{"start":11579.252,"end":11599.731,"text":"你們是想要透露嗎 我剛剛答覆過了第二位備軍有他更法定需要的用途沒有委員形容這個是救命點那如果追加預算通過的話 我們就歸電你這個追加預算的前提是什麼你要有一個法定預算 你才能追加"},{"start":11600.552,"end":11622.121,"text":"你中選會之前根本沒有編這筆預算你怎麼追加最終是犯了邏輯的錯誤他不曉得有沒有公投案他怎麼去編我要講就是說您回去好好去讀一下什麼叫追加預算他前提就是要有一個法定預算你有新增業務的號才能夠追加預算所以中選會的這個編列根本也是違法的追加預算編列也是違法的話再說回來"},{"start":11623.722,"end":11640.32,"text":"對於地方性的補助款我們這次你們提出來要追加636億我要再次強調立法院從來沒有刪過地方政府的一般性補助款當時就是依照地方政府的一般性補助款所通過的在"},{"start":11641.481,"end":11656.272,"text":"總統也都已經公告了所以這個是你們自己行政院你們不自己不把這個636億自己去做機關裡面的內部的這個雲芝而是把這個三姐全部都轉嫁到地方政府去我要講的就是這樣子的做法"},{"start":11656.992,"end":11673.385,"text":"是非常遏止根本就是違法的當然因為我想在立法院這邊大家還是有很多選區委員大家已經看到地方政府現在受災受難很多的弱勢的民眾是非常非常辛苦的所以"},{"start":11674.4,"end":11699.635,"text":"即便我再怎麼不認同我認為這個根本就是違法的追加可是如果說未來假設有通過的話我想這個部分也要告訴清楚告訴卓院長這並不代表說你們是合法的這是違法的編列我還在強調像違法的編列而如果說這個通過的話我們想講就是說你們現在所作所為你們就是一個國家級的擄人勒鼠你們"},{"start":11701.416,"end":11727.975,"text":"就是把這個地方政府把這些弱勢民眾當成你們的政治肉票然後用來威脅國會這是非常非常糟糕的一件事情什麼叫做擄人勒鼠我覺得你們現在行政院做的就是這樣的事情好 然後我最後還要再講就是你們就算是認為說有追加預算的必要請主席上 不好意思你們這次追加預算請主席上"},{"start":11732.796,"end":11760.075,"text":"你們這次追加預算的方式有比照中央政府總預算的編列方式嗎有啊因為這個部分當初被刪減的部分我要講好你們有提供三個表格嗎你們有提供中央政府機關稅出二級用途科目分析表嗎你們有提出中央政府機關資本支出分析表嗎你們有提出中央政府各機關資本支出分析總表嗎"},{"start":11761.849,"end":11776.687,"text":"我們都依照我告訴你我們沒有看到我們立法院預算中心也沒有看到所以你們根本沒有依照預算法第82條裡面追加預算的編造審議及執行程序要准用總預算的規定"},{"start":11777.95,"end":11801.454,"text":"我們自己也有追加預算追加把關的但是坦白說你們透過你們這樣子的這個便利預算的方式真的是非常的簡略粗暴草率因為我們看不出來你們現在這個用的經費是用在什麼地方更何況我剛講了追加預算重要是他要有重大事故發生重大事故你們哪一個項目的內容裡面說你們是發生了什麼重大的事故"},{"start":11801.874,"end":11830.584,"text":"因為他有限制有可能性就是因為你們自己覺得說你們不服氣立法院所給你們刪的預算不是是因為執行困難是真的過去難道都沒有預算被刪減嗎沒有刪減這麼多這是過去是已經要翻頁了你們當初提起了復議而且復議也被我們否決了所以這個根本不構成追加預算的理由好到最後我要講就是"},{"start":11832.742,"end":11860.047,"text":"我很遺憾我看到你們這次所編的預算真的是不僅預算回編不該編的項目譬如說人事費的項目本來不該編你們也編然後呢一些這個金毛帥皮一些小錢你們也是編剛剛賴思榜委員已經講得很清楚所以我在這邊要講我會嚴格把關你們的最佳預算不該通過的就不通過好以上謝謝謝謝翁小林委員的質詢謝謝謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢謝謝"},{"start":11874.96,"end":11878.022,"text":"好 接下來我們請登記最後一位 武力華為 請繼續謝謝主席院長 麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":11898.248,"end":11919.358,"text":"吳委員好院長好 辛苦了我查了一下歷年來如果是風災的災後重建特別條例有兩個一個是16年前2009年的穆拉克風災另外一個就是我們剛剛完成三堵的丹納斯紀728豪雨的災後重建特別條例"},{"start":11920.278,"end":11930.042,"text":"院長您可以看一下我有準備PPT這上頭有許多的照片第一個就是我們回看2009年的莫拉克風災當時"},{"start":11932.148,"end":11954.945,"text":"我們在媒體上先看到被披露的是關於林邊鄉海邊那個地方淹大水包括餘溫都沒有了但是我們也看到這一次在丹納斯728豪雨同樣的嘉南地區就是淹大水有很多因為強風的關係民宅屋頂被掀開慘不忍睹"},{"start":11957.347,"end":11982.713,"text":"那我們再回看當時的山區的災況可以看到也是非常的慘烈但是是隔了一個禮拜之後慢慢慢慢那個畫面才傳出來我們才曉得說原來莫納科造成這麼大的災害於是開啟了這個重建條例那我們現在來看現在這一次的這個風災它所造成的災害其實也差不多"},{"start":11983.473,"end":12011.549,"text":"那樣的畫面呢重複當年的一個景象山坡竟然部落可以淹大水路斷掉土石流呢進房子我們也可以看到有很多的地方是地基掏空那其實從嘉義阿里山到高雄所有的原鄉屏東台東有災害的原鄉我大概都利用我的空檔我陸陸續續都去過那我很難過的就是我親眼看到"},{"start":12013.07,"end":12021.085,"text":"這樣的一個造成部落的路段這些衛生所的主任他們要背著藥材他們要去"},{"start":12022.386,"end":12046.452,"text":"我也看到我們這些災民看到我來就會抱著我哭好像看到救星我也看到這一些工程人員我只不過輕輕的跟他們說辛苦了喔他們就忍不住面對我掉下眼淚所以我可以感受得到大家的壓力非常的大但是我要講的是今天主委在這邊"},{"start":12047.679,"end":12064.119,"text":"其實從莫拉克風災之後經歷16年有太多的災害至今根本無人聞聞就算計畫提報都被放生所以我們當時看到莫拉克重建條例有1200億的規模"},{"start":12066.101,"end":12080.681,"text":"民間投入260億如果用物價指數去轉換大概現在是1800億那民間的投入大概四五百億我們這一次丹納斯原本是560億我個人的版本是提到600億為什麼"},{"start":12082.603,"end":12102.56,"text":"因為我知道山區災害復原的狀況絕對不是這樣的錢就可以處理的來的甚至我也關心到有一些村呢它這些年一直重複治災但是再也沒有人關心他們到底要不要遷村要搬到哪裡要如何安置"},{"start":12103.18,"end":12127.197,"text":"所以我自己的版本裡面我也希望能夠做法律授權的謙孫但是很可惜就是沒有被處理到可是我要請院長看一下我其實想要提的是這些年的原鄉很可憐我們看一下不論是一般的縣市或者是六都一般的縣市要仰賴中央補助這些鄉公所大概都要到五成六成以上"},{"start":12128.138,"end":12151.243,"text":"那些六都的園區更恐怖他要仰賴中央甚至高達九成可是我們的才化法修法之後我不斷的呼籲過去是我爸媽不疼我我跟中央的爺爺奶奶要可是現在爺爺奶奶告訴我你的錢我已經給你爸爸媽媽了可是爸爸媽媽依然不愛我我們園鄉怎麼辦"},{"start":12153.188,"end":12167.573,"text":"我們就因為人口少我們沒有可以依賴的長輩所以呢我請院長你感受一下這個照片這個是2009年莫拉科的時候這個是高雄茂林區的萬山部落"},{"start":12168.473,"end":12192.039,"text":"你看那一大片的大崩塌 他們沒有被遷村每一年我去查了 中央就給他們兩百萬 五百萬做邊坡那一些邊坡的住戶啊 非常非常的惶恐特別是莫拉克之後 所有土石流淺市區動不動災害應變中心一成立 相公所就要大家撤村"},{"start":12192.819,"end":12221.739,"text":"很多是無法動談癱瘓的老人家他們都說我就寧可死在這裡拜託不要讓我們去撤村不要讓我們安置大家非常的痛苦苦不堪言可是你看我當了立委我幫他們兩期爭取到水利署每一期不到五千萬你看一個不到一億的工程他們的居民非常的高興"},{"start":12223.188,"end":12244.629,"text":"你再看一下這個是竹尾的原鄉這個山地門鄉是屏東最大的原鄉他們本來有自來水系統但是莫拉克風災把路弄斷了之後這16年來他供應的山地村 德文村 達萊村都要自己去接水源"},{"start":12246.087,"end":12263.058,"text":"我很感動那時候我跑去找公共工程委員會的主委吳哲成政委他講了一句話我很感動他說如果我們把武藝投入在台北市連個波浪都看不到但是如果我們可以投入在原鄉就可以掀起美麗的波瀾"},{"start":12264.58,"end":12291.774,"text":"雖然還沒有完工但是我很感謝我現在要跟院長說的是很多原鄉的災害排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到特別統計條例就這麼樣一直擱著如果是南橫他因為要通到台東他是重要的工程我們可以看到這十幾年來政府投入幾百億重複治災我們是不是要思考一下工程該怎麼做"},{"start":12292.844,"end":12318.056,"text":"我給我們的院長你看一下這個畫面是在高雄復興禮這是里長他好高興那時候連日豪雨通訊都已經斷了他到有通訊的地方傳照片給我他說委員謝謝你因為我在3月去那個地方衛商他跟議員看到我趕快來跟我澄清說這次的汛期我們第30一定會滅村"},{"start":12320.08,"end":12344.647,"text":"果然他說拜託給我做那個第二層護岸我趕快找我們的水保署第二層護岸做起來他好高興果不其然跟他的想法一樣這一次花了三個月馬上蓋起來的第二層護岸保護了我們所有的第三齡住戶那我也給院長看一下這個畫面這個畫面地基掏空啊"},{"start":12345.783,"end":12366.625,"text":"這不是部落的錯所有的部落都有這樣的問題其實我們很清楚知道這些年原鄉不是合法建地我們很難爭取政府的經費根本沒有給我們做排水幾十年來這個都是因為沒有排水設施水就地下浸流亂竄就造成地基掏空原鄉處處可見"},{"start":12368.561,"end":12388.215,"text":"因為沒有排我們做部落的排水的這樣的一個經費那我們原住民好不容易等到的國土計劃法本來今年的5月1號開始我們可以申請結果大家又透過表決把它延後6年到120年我們原鄉這6年又要繼續這樣的一個窘境"},{"start":12389.5,"end":12412.797,"text":"我給院長看一個影片在屏東獅子鄉有一個很裡面的部落叫做找不到的部落他們的村長那個時候726豪宇很驕傲的傳這個影片給我看這邊在山多爾颱風去年的山多爾颱風的時候這邊的洪水以及土石流流到部落流到部落流到路面而且有"},{"start":12413.857,"end":12429.839,"text":"地址比较低的地方都往住宅方向所以这次假了那么多天已经将近要一个礼拜当中都还看不到任何有什么堵石榴有什么水冲到马路后就像刚刚进镜因为真的是非常感谢"},{"start":12430.88,"end":12455.975,"text":"吳委員吳立華能夠幫我們改善這個事之後能夠看見這樣的他的用心院長我是故意放的他應該不用感謝吳委員吳立華他應該感謝政府應該感謝我們的水保單位委員我們跟你說明一下因為你說這個風災的問題我們下午會有個專報裡面我們這次的600億的特別預算當中屬於園民會轄管"},{"start":12457.276,"end":12483.849,"text":"相關的經費有45億但是可能要扣除那些福利啊什麼能夠到建設的可能很少有在編這個部分我就是要訴求這個那我再看一個簡單的圖片這個也是春日鄉的一個村長他是深藍的但是他好開心為什麼這個工程不過才不到100萬他告訴我說委員這邊年年淹水不對啦要在上面做節水"},{"start":12484.429,"end":12504.195,"text":"一個不到一百萬的工程他說這一次的豪雨連日豪雨他說完全沒有淹水他非常的高興這個是信義鄉信義鄉的一個村長 理事長他也是傳照片給我他說這一次的連日豪雨他們部落沒有土石流進來了再看一個圖片這個是春日鄉有一個電塔"},{"start":12505.796,"end":12523.53,"text":"當時110年我去會刊112年完工這一次他們也告訴我說好好喔路面乾乾淨淨這一次自栽的獅子鄉院長你知道這個嗎這是一個教會有很多民宅我受理四五年了我找什麼單位都不行為什麼因為公務單位說"},{"start":12526.223,"end":12550.699,"text":"這個是私人的黨土牆私人的土地不能用政府的錢做他是水保義務人就直到現在看到這樣的一個災況可能爆災也不過因為說沒有結構物說那個結構物是私人教會的黨土牆好現在我們再看一個這是花蓮的秀林鄉的文藍村你看密密麻麻的陳情書跟我陳情他們說這個問題已經10多年了沒有改善"},{"start":12551.559,"end":12567.698,"text":"但是他們確實不斷不斷的遭受崩塌甚至有一個人在那邊說我就在這邊等死算了政府都不管我可是我拜託我們的政府單位不到五千萬的工程你看那個照片做好了他們很開心"},{"start":12568.439,"end":12596.471,"text":"我要說的是其實強降雨是未來的氣候趨勢那我們中央也有一個災防的匯報我也看到這些年來20多年來它平均一年開兩次很多2002年的提案呢2014年還在重複的提案所以我還是要回到那句話原鄉很多的災損排不到年度預算排不到災害預備金也等不到重建條例所以我請院長是不是可以支持就是您剛剛已經"},{"start":12597.611,"end":12626.984,"text":"告訴我們我很安心就是考量原鄉地區的受災情形有這種等不到排不到的狀況是不是可以編列立刻做全部部落的排水的一個治水工程還有需要簽件的我們重新關心他因為這次的重建條例我這一條並沒有去三讀通過那我希望有一個專案的經費那也懇請院長能夠成立一個具有災害防救實權又有跨部會協調能力的一個"},{"start":12627.465,"end":12627.888,"text":"災防專責單位來 院長請"},{"start":12631.294,"end":12657.346,"text":"可不可以我跟委員報告一下我跟委員報告我們在重建條例裡面光我們研擬會就編了45.5億多的經費這裡面也有部落的聯絡道橋樑 基礎設施還有水利設施等等剛剛那個畫面你有提到大社部落我想你跟我都是大社部落的小孩子我有跟自救會在上上禮拜就跟他們直接談"},{"start":12658.166,"end":12681.124,"text":"因為除了那個聯絡道路你們講是專六線其實現在它還是線的聯絡道那我們跟縣政府一起但是我們會裡面要做的是部落裡面的一些排水設施還有它攤下來的那個地方未來這幾戶要怎麼樣來協助他們我們直接跟他們有做溝通我想他們需要什麼我們做的到的"},{"start":12681.664,"end":12697.873,"text":"其實在這個重建條例一通過之後我們立刻就來做到時候再請委員一起來協助主委還有院長我只是要轉達我們不是個案來看我們有多少的成年老案還在那邊等待政府關愛的眼神"},{"start":12698.593,"end":12723.043,"text":"那莫拉克風災這樣的一個金額都沒有辦法處理完更何況這次丹納斯的600億還包括很多社福的經費等等所以是絕對沒有辦法處理好所以我才會說拜託院長是不是能夠考量原鄉的狀況一方面能夠有特別的處理的經費二方面也希望未來能夠有一個專責單位"},{"start":12725.214,"end":12733.762,"text":"防水 治水的經費我們除了長年性的經費之外我們明年開始有四年一千億的縣市館河川我會請經濟部來"},{"start":12736.034,"end":12758.506,"text":"評估各地的優先順序是不是原鄉部落有特別的需求那他不整治好影響到下游這個對我們整治工程是一大的妨礙我會請經濟部在明年開始能夠全新的去檢討規劃院長也提醒您其實我們的三個水保單位以納瑪夏來講"},{"start":12760.387,"end":12779.406,"text":"其實現在的河川河流的界定定義已經不同於幾十年前該做討論了他們的權責的一個分數像他們分到的幾乎全部五分之四的河段都是水保單位但是水保單位要做護岸的錢沒有啊可是相對於桃園"},{"start":12780.307,"end":12800.704,"text":"他們大部分都是屬於河川署的那河川署有很多做護岸的錢啊所以兩鄉的治水就完全不一樣所以我覺得這個部分都要全面的重新來檢討我請農業部 經濟部分別來討論那麼因為這次我們在這個前進指揮所曾經的政委處理得很好我請他也能來督導"},{"start":12804.025,"end":12807.607,"text":"好 謝謝吳麗華委員持續謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝抱怨會議場二樓旁聽的來自張志倫委員邀請的大中華新聞記者友好交流協會我們掌聲鼓勵 掌聲歡迎"},{"start":12819.554,"end":12835.139,"text":"委員會114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案這質詢已均已詢答完畢謝謝卓院長以及相關列席部會首長的列席答詢現在做以下決定一114年度中央政府總預算追加預算案交財政委員會"},{"start":12836.319,"end":12856.251,"text":"會同相有關委員審查二 將各委員會發言記錄及書面質詢送函送行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆三 以提出之書面質詢尚未登載公報者依律補刊抱怨會我們上午會議進行到此為止我們謝謝吳宗憲委員 張志倫委員 羅廷偉委員"},{"start":12859.953,"end":12865.359,"text":"陪同我們參與今天的專案報告會議上午會議進行到下午2點30分繼續開會現在休息"},{"start":21581.624,"end":21599.007,"text":"卓院長各位國人午安我們現在到院會我們繼續開始進行開會進行中央政府丹尼斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案編制經過並被質詢首先我們請行政院卓院長報告"},{"start":21617.569,"end":21646.157,"text":"韓院長 江副院長各位委員先進今天行政院應邀就中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案進行報告並備諮詢首先要感謝大院各朝野黨團給予災區的國人及民眾更多的支持跟實質的協助"},{"start":21647.55,"end":21657.858,"text":"讓行政院在8月7號送行審議的中央政府總預算中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例"},{"start":21659.488,"end":21675.802,"text":"這塊的速度在8月15日就完成三讀作為後續推動災後重建的重要依據使各級政府有足夠的量能加速辦理災後復原重建的工作支持災民渡過這樣的難關"},{"start":21678.184,"end":21690.843,"text":"行政院依據特別條例8月21號將本特別預算案重請歸大院來審議以下請就災後重建工作及特別預算案編制概況做重點說明"},{"start":21692.813,"end":21712.561,"text":"但那時颱風今年7月6日於嘉義縣布袋登陸由南而北貫穿整個台灣海峽席捲嘉南沿海地區強風、豪雨造成中南部縣市嚴重災情建築物、電力、電信系統等設備有重大毀損"},{"start":21714.343,"end":21728.044,"text":"颱風期間及後續不斷的強降雨以至於自7月28日起連續數日西南氣流影響帶來劇烈的強降雨形成連貫性的災情"},{"start":21729.486,"end":21743.107,"text":"許多民眾家園嚴重毀損亦導致大規模的電力、通訊、農業設施、道路及水利設施等都受損衝擊當地民眾生活及民生經濟"},{"start":21744.577,"end":21772.558,"text":"政府為協助受災民眾能夠得到更多關懷跟慰助第一時間提供各項生活輔助措施包括租屋補助 淹水救助住宅修繕 農業救助稅務減免 健保補助及就業支持協助等等尤其針對山區多處園民鄉的清理與重建以及中低收入戶及"},{"start":21774.12,"end":21788.016,"text":"低收入戶及中低收入戶的房屋修繕還有關懷戶政府均全額支持以加速推動災區各項復原重建工作同時行政院以核定丹納斯颱風風災"},{"start":21791.431,"end":21815.24,"text":"救助事項的專案丹納斯風災家園復原衛助金專案以及上工獎勵專案及媒合簽約獎勵金等災後重建計畫但由於災情不斷的擴大依據現行災害防救法相關規定辦理災後復原所需的經費已有所不足"},{"start":21815.922,"end":21842.777,"text":"因此行政院有必要提出中央政府丹納斯颱風及728桃雨災後復原重建特別條例給予民眾更多的支持跟協助行政院依照特別條例規定編制完成本特別預算案稅出共編600億元期程至今年8月19日起至116年12月31日止"},{"start":21846.021,"end":21850.804,"text":"114至116年度分別編列191億316億以及93億元包括農業部編列203億元經濟部編列187億元交通部編列69億元原住民族委員會編列46億元內政部編列38億元"},{"start":21873.338,"end":21887.883,"text":"環境部編列16億元教育部編列4億元文化部編列3億元國家通訊傳播委員會編列3億元行政院公共工程委員會編列1億元另編列預備金30億元"},{"start":21889.543,"end":21909.277,"text":"所需財源全數以舉借債務支應為因應本次旦那颱風及接續的西南氣流帶來持續強降與造成的災損本特別預算案規劃辦理災區復原重建項目共有9項各項目預算的編列情況包括有"},{"start":21912.33,"end":21934,"text":"第一 農業設施含農路修徹倉儲農業機具等101億元電力系統含輸配電系統備援系統110億元電信系統及有線廣播電視系統含基地台衛星備援等3億元"},{"start":21934.966,"end":21960.107,"text":"自來水瓦斯燃氣設施3億元家園及公共設施含住宅修繕學校公務設施48億元水利設施含河川治理台水系統海岸防護等110億元道路及交通含橋樑邊坡防護交通設施等89億元"},{"start":21962.313,"end":21967.862,"text":"環境衛生復原含災後廢棄物清理疫情防治等15億元"},{"start":21970.014,"end":21991.239,"text":"最後是社會復原及產業復蘇含農損補助產業振興等89億元並編列預備金30億元及籌設復原重建辦公室1億元本次特別預算案共編列600億元令加計為使救災工作迅速推動"},{"start":21992.399,"end":22012.865,"text":"辦理緊急救助等具時效性項目前由各機關緣編相關預算及移緩季節調整支應61億元及動資特別統籌分配稅款支應家園復原未租金及復原上工津貼補助金等32億元"},{"start":22014.565,"end":22032.543,"text":"所以本市政府要投入救災與重建整體的經費共達到693億元以上僅就本特別預算案的編制重點概要說明有關特別預算案的編制經過及內容由陳主席長在座報告"},{"start":22033.784,"end":22060.921,"text":"財源籌措部分由財政部莊部長在座報告懇請各位委員全力的支持早日通過本特別預算案使政府各項復原重建工作能夠緊速推動全力協助災民重建家園恢復基礎設施及復甦生產活動讓民眾生活緊速回到常軌以上報告請各位委員能夠大力的協助儘早的審議通過謝謝指教 謝謝"},{"start":22068.349,"end":22094.289,"text":"謝謝行政院卓院長的報告我們也非常感謝當然是颱風災區的立法委員只有林俊憲 邱毅寅兩位委員在場也謝謝我們臺灣民眾黨團的林議軍委員也在現場一起來聽取卓院長的專案報告也呼籲災區的立委能夠多多趕到一場來聽一下這次重要的災後重建的報告"},{"start":22095.33,"end":22109.061,"text":"另外也跟院會報告在一場二樓旁聽的是新北市清水高中國中的所有同學們我們掌聲熱情歡迎好 謝謝我們接下來請主計總處陳主計長報告"},{"start":22119.039,"end":22136.902,"text":"韓院長 江副院長各位委員先敬大家好中央政府單納市颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案編制概況及主要重點卓院長已予以說明以下緊究特別預算案編制經過及內容概要"},{"start":22137.723,"end":22155.468,"text":"該要進一步提出報告本次丹奈斯颱風節728豪雨災禍復原工作整理經費需求達693億元為此就在工作迅速推動辦理緊急救助等具時效性項目已由各機關於原編相關預算"},{"start":22156.368,"end":22172.044,"text":"以緩計及支應61億元以及動資特別統籌分配稅款支應家園復原衛助金與復原上工津貼的補助金等32億元那其餘則依丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復建"},{"start":22174.486,"end":22193.971,"text":"復原重建特別條例規定編列完成本特別預算案總經費六百億元實施期程自一百一十四年八月十九日到一百一十六年十二月三十一日子以本年八月二十一送請歸月審議主要內容如下第一個 稅出預算"},{"start":22195.291,"end":22222.919,"text":"600億元 主要分機關別和正式別說明如下機關別編列 請洗衣農業部主管編列203億元主要是撥補農業天然災害救助基金辦理農業損失現金救助及低利貸款利息補貼還有補助地方政府辦理上下邊坡穩定排水改善與道路安全等農水路公共設施災後搶修及復原工程等"},{"start":22223.399,"end":22239.256,"text":"二 經濟部主管編列187億元主要是撥補台灣電力公司去辦理遷改供電線路以及補助地方政府辦理系統性治水與水利設施災後搶修及復原重建工程"},{"start":22240.157,"end":22263.696,"text":"等三交通部主管編列69億元主要是省道搶修及復建工程並補助地方政府辦理市縣區鄉道搶修及復原工程等是原住民委員會編列46億元主要辦理原住民民主部落基礎設施公共設施聯絡道路橋樑等在下搶修與復建等"},{"start":22265,"end":22283.197,"text":"五 內政部主管編列38億元是補助地方政府辦理住宅屋頂與外牆損害的拆除修繕與媒合還有補助地方政府辦理受災地區市區道路橋樑公共建設雨水下水道的緊急搶救搶修清理清淤"},{"start":22284.097,"end":22308.868,"text":"及復建工程六 環境部主管編列16億元主要是補助地方政府辦理失眠建材廢棄物清除災後環境復原等七 教育部主管編列4億元主要是補助地方政府辦理國民中小學校園災後搶修及復建工程八 國家通訊傳播委員會編列3億元去辦理"},{"start":22309.568,"end":22337.929,"text":"受災地區電信系統及有線電視廣播電視系統復原重建補助等九 文化部主管編列三運營是辦理受災古蹟歷史建築聚落建築群等文化資產緊急搶修及修復十 行政院公共工程委員會編列一億元系災後復原重建辦公室業務所需經費十一 預備金編列三十億元"},{"start":22339.289,"end":22351.198,"text":"2 正式別編列情形經濟發展支出501億元居所 佔稅數總額83.4%一般政務支出46億元次之 佔稅數總額7.7%預備金30億元 佔稅數總額5%社區發展及環境支出16億元 佔稅數總額2.7%教育科學文化支出7億元 佔稅數總額1.2%"},{"start":22367.79,"end":22394.671,"text":"以上稅出所需財源600億元全數以舉借債務支應以上特別預算是作為協助災民重建家園修復基礎設施並復甦生產活動敬請各位委員 女士先生會與指教並鼎力支持謝謝好 謝謝陳主席長的報告也謝謝鄭天才委員參與我們專案報告會議接下來我們請財政部莊部長請報告"},{"start":22406.769,"end":22431.599,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好有關中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案收入的編列情形報告如下首先是就財源規劃的部分提出報告那麼依照本重建特別條例第五條的規定經費上限是為600億元那麼以特別預算的方式來編列經費來源以"},{"start":22433.1,"end":22446.391,"text":"以用以前年度稅基剩餘或者是舉借債務支應本特別預算案的總經費600億元從114年度起到116年度我們分三年辦理財源規劃全數以舉借債務來支應"},{"start":22450.074,"end":22475.435,"text":"第二是就債務的管控部分來報告有關債務管控的部分依照本重建條例的規定每年度的舉借債務的額度不受公債法第五條第七項每年度債務流量15%的限制但是仍然要管控特別條例施行期間中央政府總預算及特別預算的舉債額度合計數"},{"start":22476.335,"end":22497.571,"text":"不得超过该期间总预算及特别预算税出总额合计数的15%并且需要符合公债法第五条第一项有关长期债务余额占前三年度明目GDP平均数的比例不得超过40.6%的存量债限规定"},{"start":22498.351,"end":22518.762,"text":"考量本重建條例從一百一四年度推動執行那麼並繼一百一四年度中央政府總預算前瞻基礎建設計劃新式戰機採購海空戰力提升計劃採購疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果丹納斯等特別預算的舉債合計數"},{"start":22520.283,"end":22538.731,"text":"占该期间税出预算总额合计数为5.7%低于15%规定的上限那么截至114年7月底中央政府长期债务余额实计数为5兆8379亿元债务比率为24.3%"},{"start":22541.252,"end":22551.816,"text":"至於114年底長期債務餘額的預算數是依據公債法第五條規定按照113年底中央政府長期債務餘額的實際數5兆8580億元連同歷年特別預算融資調度的保留數2910億元加計114年度預計的債務舉借數並扣除債務償還數以後"},{"start":22568.641,"end":22576.529,"text":"預估到114年抵止中華政府長期債務餘額為6兆4768億元債務比例為27%那麼據公債法的規定債務存量上限40.6%還有13.6%的舉債空間那麼以上的報告敬請各位委員會議支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":22595.99,"end":22611.995,"text":"謝謝莊部長的報告我們現在繼續感謝蘇清泉委員 許巧欣委員 郭國恩委員一起參與我們專案的報告接下來要跟大家報告的是公共工程委員會陳竺偉請提出報告"},{"start":22618.843,"end":22637.121,"text":"院長 各位委員 先進 大家好首先感謝大院8月15號通過由行政院所提的丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例草案根據這個草案主管機關是行政院公共工程委員會預算規模600億針對丹納斯颱風及728豪雨包括楊柳颱風"},{"start":22643.467,"end":22657.892,"text":"那麼所造成的災損在預定的災區是南投、台中、雲林嘉義縣市台南市、高雄市、屏東縣台東、花蓮、苗栗等縣市"},{"start":22658.812,"end":22687.786,"text":"所造成的這個災損編列預算進行重建復原的工作那麼包括受損房屋的修繕拆除 廢棄物的處理農業設施 水利設施 電力通信 公路及交通公共設施等進行災後重建以下緊究災損房屋以及廢棄物的處理補充說明那麼因為這次的颱風比較特殊是從在台灣西部由南向北那麼右轉到"},{"start":22688.746,"end":22711.71,"text":"加一些的鋪子布袋來上岸所以因為超級的強風16級以上的強風造成大量的老舊房屋受損這些老舊房屋過去因為部分是產權複雜部分是租用國有地所以長時間沒有修繕有的長達百年"},{"start":22714.551,"end":22734.669,"text":"沒有碰過這樣的颶風所以損失非常大超過4萬戶以上的房屋受損那麼針對這4萬戶以上的房屋受損行政院呢除了撥補20億到這個嘉義縣嘉義市台南市進行家園復原未住金之外呢那麼也沒和"},{"start":22735.71,"end":22758.338,"text":"將近300家以上的營造廠商進駐雲嘉南來協助縣市政府針對受損的災民來進行房屋的修繕如果是拆除的部分全部由政府來負擔包括拆除 包括廢墟物的去化等等如果是自行拆除也會補助2萬塊"},{"start":22759.898,"end":22788.241,"text":"那麼關於修繕的部分呢如果是弱勢戶包括低收入戶 中低收入戶包括脆弱家庭那麼包括特殊禁慾家庭呢全部由政府來負擔那麼如果是自行拆除呢政府額外再補助5萬 10萬等那麼如果受損房屋的面積比較小20平方公尺以下的那麼由市政府或嘉義縣市政府分別"},{"start":22789.162,"end":22795.109,"text":"補助之外呢那麼行政院各分別在補助一萬五給這個弱勢戶那麼受損面積比較小的來補助"},{"start":22800.356,"end":22821.073,"text":"那包括產生的廢棄物呢因為數量非常龐大所以營建廢棄物的處理也全部由市政府來協助來處理那麼行政院來補助這個金額那其中呢包含石明瓦那麼因為石明瓦是有害事業廢棄物所以針對石明瓦的處理那麼全部由"},{"start":22822.454,"end":22846.88,"text":"這個政府來清運跟去化包含了這個勤設這些設施甚至包含了這個工廠那麼原有的這個石棉瓦的這個建築拆下來之後那麼這個整個由行政院來協助各縣市政府來處理那麼以上做補充說明 敬請大院支持好 謝謝謝謝陳主任委員的報告"},{"start":22849.81,"end":22864.44,"text":"委員會現在開始我們進行委員質詢每位委員詢答時間不得超過15分鐘輪到質詢委員如果不在場視同放棄我們首先請林郡縣委員質詢郭國文委員請準備"},{"start":22877.313,"end":22881.67,"text":"謝謝院長 本席邀請我們行政院卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22893.553,"end":22914.328,"text":"林委員好 院長好 本席我們肯定也感謝行政院即刻的呼應本席最早提出的希望我們能夠提出特別條例來搶救這一次造成可以說台灣百年史上最嚴重的一次風災"},{"start":22916.093,"end":22938.007,"text":"首先我想跟院長我們必須要了解到真實的狀況我現在發現中央跟地方的數據會有落差譬如說按照中央所統計我們現在受理的汙損的件數有三萬九千件合發的有一萬八千六百件"},{"start":22939.178,"end":22957.712,"text":"但是根據台南市政府呢他受理的件數已經有四萬三千三百五十二件核發的有兩萬九千件那這個落差在什麼地方呢台南市政府的受理還有核發的件數啊都是一專期啦但是呢"},{"start":22959.435,"end":22975.508,"text":"現在中央所公佈的數字都是只有重災區就是台南市的17個行政區所以這個會產生一個數字的落差因為這些現在的手裡都公佈在網路上我希望這中央跟地方"},{"start":22977.354,"end":23004.392,"text":"這個公佈的數字啊應該要一致才對應該一樣才對嘛我說台南市公佈的一專期要知道這一次的災區宣告是全市 全台南市都屬於災區啦但是我們中央現在所公佈的受理建築 核發建築就是說儲配業啦來申報的 還有合併的受理跟電是有很大的一個不一樣那這個部分"},{"start":23006.172,"end":23028.534,"text":"我們再來看一下為什麼核發件數跟實際的受理件數會有落差呢當然我們有一些行政作業第一個有些如果你的申請的品項跟你提供的一些照片影片的數據那個證據有一點落差有些是需要現刊"},{"start":23030.283,"end":23052.856,"text":"有的是申請你不符合資格比如說你沒有實際居住的事實有的是重複送件所以這都需要人力來審查所以我們現在缺的人力不是只有在現場你做工施工的工班的人力行政程序的人力非常的需求"},{"start":23053.973,"end":23077.302,"text":"你看 按照台南市政府的數字現在申請的 還沒給他決定你可不可以請您衛助金有13600戶一萬三千六百戶如果按照我們中央的數字你來申請衛助金 那還沒有核定不知道可不可以符合資格的有超過兩萬戶"},{"start":23079.229,"end":23106.673,"text":"這就是我跟你說的連行政程序的審查人力都非常短缺啦也讓院長知道啦因為這檔位重災區啦都是在屬於比較偏鄉啦你偏鄉的區公所一般的編制人力就比較少你現在鄉鄉下來喔 很多東西啦這審查的速度很慢那我希望這個部分啊中央現在啊有一點可以來"},{"start":23107.848,"end":23135.636,"text":"協助的因為在我們的特別條例裡面的預算你有編了一億元在工程會所有的行政程序都在這因為我們要籌設災後復原重建辦公室也起程到特別預算的執行差不多到明年2026年底這裡面就有包含人力包括縣幹的人力流程審查的人力評估等等"},{"start":23136.738,"end":23155.139,"text":"所以既然預算變態特別條例裡面是不是希望能夠趕快補充這個部分的審查人力來 這個是不是請先請陳主委解釋一下人數上的問題以及現在行政的資源人力問題來 王國健主委因為數量的確很龐大"},{"start":23156.941,"end":23178.829,"text":"來申請了超過4萬件就台南市政府而言那重災區有17個區公所那我到區公所去看台南市政府每個區公所這17個區公所都有進駐檢認級以上的這個同仁相關人員都有進駐那每個區公所他也會動員志工在那邊協助審查"},{"start":23179.269,"end":23205.368,"text":"那當然一開始是量很多啦所以他為了謹慎因為我們有區分20平方公尺以下的20平方公尺以上是100平方公尺以上報來的資料未必準確啦所以承辦第一線的確壓力很大他也這個很謹慎的在審查不過現在已經五成以上都已經發放但是我用這個手裡給你們兩個參考就是說現在計案如山啦現在待審查的還有13,666件"},{"start":23208.281,"end":23236.644,"text":"因為申請了4萬多件 所以已經半數以上一個多月了 已經撥補下去了所以我現在請這個部分 看怎麼來協助再增派人力因為你已經特別預算 你有兩個這個部分的預算了好 再來 不然蔡英文會認為我這送去申請衛助金 到現在也沒有消息到底是有準沒準 我是符合請領多少所以這樣子的話 也會產生民眾的誤解"},{"start":23238.695,"end":23253.676,"text":"這點我們請中央政府來注意一下還有我們房屋的修繕剛才我們指揮官 曾經的主委也特別報告政府設立一個媒合的平台數字現況有落差 但差不了多少"},{"start":23255.618,"end":23276.5,"text":"現在完成媒合我們做院長知道就是說外出派去我現在來定義政府要介紹要媒合公辦來給我去有3,095件那完成簽約的目前只有405件所以喔"},{"start":23277.898,"end":23301.094,"text":"我同意 那我也支持 那我也加入政府的媒合平台到現在完成簽約的只有百分之十三啦好 完工的企鶴啊 一百三十八斤啦占所有參與媒合平台的總戶數只有百分之四點五啦"},{"start":23302.165,"end":23307.621,"text":"一個多月的時間所以如果你照這樣看下去災後的修繕工作"},{"start":23308.683,"end":23333.645,"text":"恐怕要又很長的了我跟委員報告 申請件數將近4萬了那麼區公所一一打電話去問或者是李幹事去家裡去問已經達99%以上都問過了那需要來媒合的大概3000多萬你這有嚇啦你登記申請的跟完成媒合的因為你現在報告都報告99%嘛"},{"start":23335.446,"end":23354.682,"text":"這個我同意啦 這個是問過的有99%都同意來加入我們的媒合平台不是 這個沒有錯啦就是問過的99%以上那他同意政府來媒合大概3000處左右到8月22日是3263啦如果到8月25日應該有3500左右這裡面呢 媒合中的"},{"start":23355.422,"end":23373.904,"text":"三千多的 也有不參與的啦你意思是說有人沒有參加就對了他同意參與媒合 有的他已經自行修建或等待修建 那出名的有人在找他拜託他要找所以有需求的是三千五左右啦那這三千五的安排 已經安排在媒合中的"},{"start":23376.265,"end":23400.958,"text":"已經98%以上的因為裡面他有一些會比較所以才有這個簽約數大概600左右到今天應該600左右所以這個比例還不算很低你是針對4萬嗎如果是針對說他有需求的應該是3000了你的比例應該是我參與我同意我加入政府的媒體平台你到底"},{"start":23402.025,"end":23421.715,"text":"跟我們簽約的已經完工了那這個比例目前為止啊恐怕還很低啦所以 第一點你現在 剛才那指揮官有報告我們把全國的公班調來支援台南我不知道可以支援多久啦我希望喔 這時間可能要比我們想像的更長啦這時間可能要再等"},{"start":23424.883,"end":23451.613,"text":"陳主委你懂我意思吧這個那天禮拜六總統在台南訪視的時候他有說啦就是已經確定要媒合給這個廠商來做了沒有做好公班不會撤退好好好 請讓大家放心啦你如果參與我的政府的平台那我一定要幫你介紹公班啦你的意思是這樣嘛對那我們也希望這個時間能夠再加快"},{"start":23452.739,"end":23467.596,"text":"因為現在大家去電機後 他們都會覺得說我就當政府要來去嘛你有知道齁 災民的心理是度日如年啊他們現在除了派去抱他 不能住他就等於沒有辦法回復到災前的生活嘛"},{"start":23468.49,"end":23487.276,"text":"如果以目前的來看 你說完工的有100多件以完工167 施工中263 備料145這是8月22 如果今天來看應該是600件以上請我們再加油 我們希望再盡快加快速度"},{"start":23488.922,"end":23512.916,"text":"另外就是還有一個數字就是同意拆除的就是我房子我沒在住或是說已經破損到不堪的要同意來完全拆除那這個部分應該要優先來辦理同意拆除的全部由政府來負擔費用包括廢棄物的去化等等那我希望這個訊息能夠讓更多人知道"},{"start":23514.056,"end":23539.589,"text":"因為他那處派去 他如果不在大陰他沒用 沒要修理他如果不把他撐住會成為環境的一個負擔他現在再落河沖浪他變成有可能啦 登閣落啦種種環境的汙染蔡署的我們政府會負擔低收 中低收 跟關懷戶的修繕政府也會全額負擔你要願意願意加入我們蔡署全部都讓他負擔嘛再來我們提到那個石明華的青運"},{"start":23540.819,"end":23560.469,"text":"因為沒有這次的風災我們不知道很多人沒有注意到我們其實台灣的石棉瓦這個是非常嚴重的一項這真是我們的環境的負擔嘛我這裡有一個全國的一個調查啦台南的石棉瓦總量大概十萬噸"},{"start":23562.098,"end":23579.73,"text":"這一次的風災大概帶氫運有15000噸環境部已經開始進行災區相關的一個氫運現在還有一個問題啦我請部長要考量一下就是說破損的石棉瓦的拆除問題你知道嗎 這石棉瓦你不會找得到"},{"start":23582.113,"end":23608.84,"text":"要專業的人員才能拆喔他一破碎啊就一些細微纖維就飛出來了那個人連皮膚都不可以碰觸到所以你拆除啦 一定要全副武裝防塵衣啦 護目鏡啦NGO服 口罩啦頂頂喔 手套所以拆除的速度也很慢相對的啊我如果破他 我要拆很麻煩他怎麼叫人啊這部份喔 環境部對於"},{"start":23610.325,"end":23636.546,"text":"想要拆除 而目前就說他願意拆除他破損的生命好的房屋這部分要怎麼破損啊報告委員 那個內政部國土署他有補助一戶是兩萬塊然後所謂農區社也有然後一般的工廠也有現在有三個補助那我們環境部是負責清運的那清運也謝謝陳靜德政委協調還有院長也支持所以目前的這個經費在台南嘉義是沒有問題的"},{"start":23637.475,"end":23657.999,"text":"所以你現在負責一般民宅的薪金多少兩萬 工資呢工資二十萬所以不分資格啦你只要願意拆我就補償你兩萬的拆除費用啦對那接下來就清運的事情啦那這個在特別預算裡面我們也有編列啦我們希望利用這邊把過去這個環境的災難趕快把它處理掉"},{"start":23662.263,"end":23677.475,"text":"最後那個院長我也再次肯定院長因為本期在上次總質詢在質詢風災的時候我也特別有提到就是電網的韌性還有電纜的地下化問題"},{"start":23678.715,"end":23700.298,"text":"我當時也特別明確指出希望能夠就在台17和台19因為這兩條路的基礎建設比較不容易所以你可以優先來列為電纜地下化的地方所以這次你也有列進來這一點我們要肯定在建築的評估台17台19兩線他們會優先來考量除非它是一個"},{"start":23701.719,"end":23728.766,"text":"易淹水的或是地層下陷或是土質鬆軟的那我們會克服一些工程上的困難來籌措裁員那有一點我要特別提醒院長除了電網台電的電纜以外我們這次風災也檢驗到我們的網路訊號電信這現在三間有中華電信台客大還有遠傳知道他們的鐵塔訊號塔都有倒下來幹嘛 讓基地破損"},{"start":23730.558,"end":23747.666,"text":"我覺得啦 因為我們對他們怎麼設立這個信號的鐵塔其實是沒有一個標準要求我認為相關單位NCC這個部分你應該要要求電信業者 台電的喔他這個都有抗風係數喔"},{"start":23749.335,"end":23760.689,"text":"就是說你的電纜電線電位條我們要想一個標準他現在高抗災的一些基地台好像到15級是不是好像抗15級風還有不斷電還有發電設備等等這個應該也要因為他也要列為重要的國安基礎建設"},{"start":23769.093,"end":23797.684,"text":"人家的業績體育拿到特許執照我想大家都賺大錢啦遠傳也好 台客大也好 中華電信啦所以應該要負起最基本的一個社會責任應該要完善你的基礎設施啦不然你現在這個環境才知道他們都後備駕 後備調啦照電話調 所以電話調到他們就不信了網路也不信 電話也不信這個要列為一個國家標準好不好一定要他們提高標準而且設置的時候啊"},{"start":23804.208,"end":23825.325,"text":"好 謝謝林俊憲委員質詢謝謝左院長 相關部會首長貝殉 謝謝抱怨會現在在我們一場二樓旁聽來自美國國會助理訪問團Welcome Legislative Young我們掌聲鼓勵一下接下來我們請郭國文委員質詢蘇清泉委員請準備"},{"start":23831.751,"end":23858.432,"text":"謝謝主席有請卓院長還有環境部彭部長以及內政部的劉部長麻煩再請卓院長環境部內政部備詢郭委員好院長好兩位部長好我想這個上面看到的這個地圖是屬於環境部跟民間團體所做的這個實棉地圖實棉網地圖"},{"start":23860.399,"end":23885.599,"text":"其中台南是全國最多 總共5萬4千多戶總量數大概10萬但是台南的整個行政區是37個區受災戶高達17個區依照環境部的估計恐怕台南10萬噸當中只有1萬噸受損其實就17個行政區來說我覺得環境部可能要重新再估計一下是不是只有占十分之一"},{"start":23886.019,"end":23909.715,"text":"因為行政區三個七個區怎麼十七個區當中只有快一半只有一萬這是第一個另外一個部分我必須肯定一下環境部跟台南市政府清除的速度非常的快已經接近一半但是這裡頭我想說要跟環境部建議一下就是說我們這清拆運一條龍的這種方式以照目前為止剛剛"},{"start":23910.836,"end":23926.324,"text":"部長在回答林俊憲委員的時候說二十萬在補助中小企業中小企業補助二十萬 請假就不夠還有談判官給你來提交九名幫這不夠 那二十萬不是保生保害啦因為企業都抓多少錢 那二十萬中"},{"start":23929.325,"end":23955.433,"text":"所以說這個應該環境部要擔起來我是不是請院長指示一下環境部災區裡頭的中小企業 石棉瓦也請環境部用7億加7.8億總共14.8億來支付這是第一點 就是擴大辦理因為這是政府的政策環境部現在就要推石棉瓦的清運計畫另外也拜託劉部長劉部長這次編了21億再做一些拆除房屋老舊拆除的部分但是針對弱勢戶"},{"start":23956.793,"end":23977.117,"text":"是不是拆除的過程連同石棉瓦是有補助沒有錯但是是不是可以擴大到一般戶一般戶的石棉瓦拆除也需要專業因為一般人在拆除這些石棉瓦不可能全戶武裝一下子防塵衣就N95口罩又防護鏡然後雙層手罩不可以這麼費工啦我們都要拿 我有可能不夠多一定要拜託專業的人來拿嘛所以這兩點是不是能夠擴大來辦理"},{"start":23981.218,"end":24008.733,"text":"預算都有了 一個20億 一個是加了7億請院長裁刺一下 或者兩位部長回答一下 謝謝報告委員 其實我們現在原來的費用是7.9億還有額外7.多億 大概14億左右那是針對農畜舍還有一般的民宅我們是負責清運內政部 還有經濟部 還有農業部都有負責拆除 拆除是他們的分工你都可以跨除到農畜舍了對不對農畜舍是屬於農業部的 你會跨除到那邊"},{"start":24010.754,"end":24031.342,"text":"不能跨到這個經濟部所屬中小企業嗎中小企業的經濟變得太少了我告訴你 應該是要來靠這中小企業啦你試試看啦OK 好 委員另外一個是說因為清運是一筆很大的費用因為一頓大概花四萬多塊所以基本上我們那個部分其實有擴大額外在吸收中小企業"},{"start":24031.462,"end":24049.331,"text":"我有算過你們總共加持原來是71.78億至少有4萬噸的一個量可以補助所以說你還可以接受新的對象我幫你算過錢這個部分內政部可不可以從弱勢戶擴到一般戶 部長我們在這次特別預算裡面大概現在預框是4億左右"},{"start":24050.171,"end":24067.173,"text":"那如果說我們那個補助計畫裡面把現在你講的弱勢戶先核算一下如果有可能的話如果委員在我們這個預算在審查的過程當中有提這個案我們會遵照立法院所通過那我再來進行提案謝謝部長的支持後續我想要請農業部一下"},{"start":24069.829,"end":24083.917,"text":"兩位請回 謝謝院長 農業部的部分這次石棉瓦的問題也很多石棉瓦問題多在哪裡多在總共有400場那裡頭有100場當中是進行梳理 還有300場這300場當中有備時還是傳統的續勤社就是不是暗場登記的這補充內行的都知道問題是這個部分 趁這個機會你這邊農業部有兩個一個叫重建 一個叫輔導"},{"start":24098.484,"end":24113.485,"text":"那輔導的部分是什麼意思呢就是能夠讓他升級嘛或者讓他轉型嘛我想說在這補充的部分就畜牧業的這個部分當他要另外轉型的時候能不能讓他多一點力氣部長"},{"start":24114.927,"end":24138.793,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們這邊的天災的部分大概分為三項一項是就是天然災救助幫忙補助下去救助下去不夠用補助的方式補助已經拉到八成了所以這個部分是可以讓他做四度的升級那如果他要改成更高級的這些續勤社的時候我們另外會有專案的方式用個案的方式去處理"},{"start":24139.073,"end":24161.61,"text":"對啦 因為這一種呢 多半你的白色是你那是高級的啦 而且傳統的是都是傳統的 古的那個是假的啦 是低的那個他如果賺錢的時候 要改做水蓮式的你應該要倒開一個啦 這樣等於是把它升級嘛這是一種 另外一種它是已經不行了 破損它不行 它是泥木你是不是要考慮一下 把過去那個泥木專案"},{"start":24163.651,"end":24182.062,"text":"斷出來 讓他離開這個部分才是一種比較好的方式我本席建議你還有一個今年天災不斷我也會刊好幾次結果我們天災一年只能補助一次部長 我也跟院長報告多少%你知道嗎 20%而已我說拜託院長跟部長"},{"start":24183.796,"end":24200.062,"text":"做到要死一年頭停頓補助補助去10% 那有夠啦院長跟部長是不是嘗試一下長期以來天然救助辦法裡頭只有20%的數字真的是民眾級被拿到也是苦不堪言啦"},{"start":24201.663,"end":24229.96,"text":"我跟那個委員報告我非常認同你的一個想法就是說我們現在的天然災害救助辦法的救助金的設計是用成本的20%去省不過我們這次去看了有時候很多它損失是全圓全毀但是我們救助只有成本的20%那這次因為大規模我們還有一些所謂的專案補助但是平常是沒有的所以我們也一直在思考我們是不是應該"},{"start":24231.261,"end":24257.667,"text":"因為農民對於天災不是他願意面對的這個時候我們是不是可以適度的去提高他的救助的計算的標準這個也會回應到很多委員一直要求我們提高救助金要打破20%的限制提高救助金還是在20%的限制會變成只有隨著物價走所以我們這一次會全盤的重新來考量他的救助標準的20%是不是可以往上拉部長應該拉高"},{"start":24259.087,"end":24264.112,"text":"委員我請農業部趕快來規劃來檢討來拉高補償我想這個補償是我們現在應該必須做的最容易的謝謝院長的支持啦所以說這一次災損的過程當中除了這個重建20%往上拉打破之外"},{"start":24275.382,"end":24301.735,"text":"趁這個機會福島轉型包括我們之前提到的有關於溫室網的部分都要請部長多費心一下這些真的是很多另外復興的部分就是以後整個台南連續這一年之內跟院長報告我們總共四個災情那個災區已經深到人心了所以將來如何觀光復興農村旅遊的部分也請部長指示一下交通部跟農業部一起來帶動一下好不好 院長"},{"start":24304.419,"end":24329.707,"text":"謝謝後面的部分我還有一件事情就是有關於經濟部接下來的治水的工程要來就教院長跟經濟部經濟部這次編例的地方預算的搶修還有防汛的設備16億當中本席在所屬的這一次最嚴重的南北門區北門區七股細湖還有沙洲富裕還有大寮排水的部分"},{"start":24330.787,"end":24358.427,"text":"這個已經在協調台南市政府向中央提報已經有高達18億之多了18億之多呢院長我跟經濟部要求說經濟部說等到納入這個4年1000億的預算下次的狀況1000億還沒通過啊我是跟院長拜託一下這18億當中呢裡頭有屬於這個短中長期的部分就是自然工法跟水工模型測試大概要5億元這個部分全部先花這5億元"},{"start":24359.207,"end":24386.926,"text":"你總共有66億嘛你撥5億新來做一個比較中長期的部分另外13億的部分再納入1000億的自水預算院長你不能責成經濟部支持一下台南自水能夠速度快一點這次的特別預算就是針對搶秋搶險目前看到的必須趕快把它停止下來所要擴大的未來比較中期的規劃就會納到未來的4年1000億裡面來看所以我經濟部 其實水利署在把委員剛剛所建議的"},{"start":24387.606,"end":24402.389,"text":"那個地方的一個狀況是不是優先可以來納入優先納入我們來檢討謝謝院長那我跟院長說明一下為什麼一年四次淹三次原因在哪裡 原因在本席的選區當中剛好曾文熙"},{"start":24403.747,"end":24412.856,"text":"鄭文希流域當中他只要雨大的時候就要洩洪你知道洩洪最大的放流量每秒是2150噸這2150噸是八幫風災當初的紀錄"},{"start":24419.723,"end":24438.588,"text":"另外的部分它每天累積的降雨量也是高達400毫米速度都非常的快以至於這種情況一邊在洩洪一邊在下雨所以很容易淹水所以這應該是淹水當中地區當中的重中之重也是應該治水當中"},{"start":24438.948,"end":24461.233,"text":"最首要的目標啦所以我要拜託這個院長跟這個經濟部要多花一點心思在台南的治水的這部分除了南北門區特別是南科區它又是科技重鎮它雖然南科區裡頭有滋洪池可是周遭的地區都是從業人員沒有辦法上班沒有辦法上班它就影響到生產"},{"start":24462.598,"end":24484.421,"text":"這是環環相扣的事情所以南科區的治水非常關鍵還有就是曾文區本身就是最大受害的就是馬道那個地方幾乎每次下雨就淹所以真的要請這個經濟部這個水利署所屬的這個單位把台南的治水這個曾文熙言語列為重中之重"},{"start":24485.721,"end":24510.313,"text":"跟委員報告曾文熙的排水系統的一個治理計畫在去年12月26號已經核定了現在水利署跟台南市政府正在辦理曾文熙排水治理工程的一個用地取得還有先期作業的相關的一些工作等到我們的明年度計畫核定之後我們就可以工程可以試試看我希望能夠趕快看到成果"},{"start":24510.913,"end":24531.255,"text":"然後後續的部分我還要就教於院長的部分院長你已經有對外宣示說我們的台電的主要電纜要地下化我是覺得這是很好的這是眾多人的期待但是我跟院長報告說明一下我們內政部在2000年的時候就有通過所謂的共同管線管道法"},{"start":24531.815,"end":24544.151,"text":"第12條當中就規定市區道路修築的時候應該把電線纜的部分包括電力、電信、有線電視、路燈、交通號誌等等這個都是這次受損"},{"start":24545.513,"end":24570.467,"text":"嚴重的地方啦我想說你剛說你都要花台電都地下化了那地下化都有地下管溝嘛地下管溝一次成本做的時候八大管線通路你都一併可以執行嘛就要求他們一併做下去嘛像這一次的這一個NCC的部分花了2.95元2.65元是給業者重建那我問一下業者有沒有做什麼東西"},{"start":24571.81,"end":24585.428,"text":"你給他錢 業者如果沒有相對做的話也沒有辦法 請幾天總統下去的時候說以後的這一屆整個電纜通訊的韌性強化 三大業者都要要求每一次電話都能夠通如果是這樣子的話"},{"start":24587.57,"end":24608.15,"text":"院長你要指示一下NCC還有相關單位把這些管線單位把它弄成一個共同管線這才是真正的國家基礎建設把它砍敗在一起共同來思考一來它可以強化任性之外二來還可以讓入坪專案不會常常被破壞"},{"start":24610.126,"end":24627.06,"text":"水挖完換油 油挖完換電電挖完換電信每天挖來挖去 挖比賽的所以我是想說院長 趁這個機會你既然有這個決心已經要從事地下化工程能不能把電纜 電信還有交通耗資等等一併思考 院長"},{"start":24628.401,"end":24655.382,"text":"有些城市都市已經往這個方向已經做進次了這個經驗跟委員的建議是一樣的我們在規劃的時候就應該加強所謂橫向的一個評估把它融合在一起這個我也請經濟部跟其他的相關部會在規劃的時候要一起來做這個重要的規劃工作這些跨部會的部分要請院長慎重指示一下趁這個機會強化我們真正屬於基礎前瞻的建設那另外一個部分"},{"start":24656.283,"end":24684.77,"text":"院長剛剛林俊賢大家提我自己感同身透這一次第一線的公所人員真的是負擔沉重非常的大我們這次所謂的從優從寬我們真的做到了歷史以來我們條件真的最好這點一定要來困難但是為什麼沒有辦法重塑跟重減呢一個就是說你把舉證的責任都交給這些災民也要有保證事務所的 地政的或是社會一大堆"},{"start":24685.885,"end":24704.548,"text":"那這些舉證的真正導致說我們的我們這個電子化政府推了幾十年了包括所得資料、工商登記、稅籍資料、地址、戶籍這炸到有了啦我意思是說應該我們有一個查證的系統根本不用叫民眾拿那麼多資料來"},{"start":24705.209,"end":24721.008,"text":"也不用讓基層的公務人員那麼累本身透過電腦連線的時候來查證的時候你某某人 你叫我貴公文我來查查的你這裡的資料都有啊你當時有放養登記你當時有做一些工商登記我都有啊我就不用全部提來了"},{"start":24722.089,"end":24740.766,"text":"這樣就是一了百了啦一來基層的不用那麼累二來民眾也不用等待那麼久這是第一個本席提醒你的地方第二個本席要肯定你的地方這一次把這個災防這個指揮所設下來因為依照我們的災防法只是協調所而已啦你把它拉高啦"},{"start":24742.066,"end":24754.178,"text":"結條的部分把重鎮都放在地方政府這一次中央直接下去指揮這是好的做法我希望將來災防法要入法把它成為以後行政的慣性遇到地方政府無法執行的時候中央就必須要介入"},{"start":24767.964,"end":24778.6,"text":"好 謝謝郭國文委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢邱毅英委員請準備"},{"start":24798.483,"end":24822.253,"text":"謝謝院長 謝謝主席我請卓院長 農業部陳部長麻煩再請卓院長農業部陳部長農業部備詢環境部 我們彭部長環境部備詢蘇委員好院長辛苦了大家辛苦 謝謝講幾天了 不簡單"},{"start":24825.666,"end":24853.465,"text":"好 這個是我們今天講的特別條例是丹納斯颱風728豪雨緊接著就是楊柳颱風楊柳颱風在台東在屏東造成很大的傷害我去現場看事實上我也分不清這是新胸還是古胸來 下一張這個是在來義看到的"},{"start":24857.045,"end":24878.18,"text":"那個壓溪啦 都壞掉了淹得一塌糊塗 連橋都斷了那我就問那個鄉長說這是新鄉 還是古的鄉他說不知道 我們不清楚所以我跟院長這邊要確認就是說這個丹納斯加上728因為那個豪雨在屏東"},{"start":24879.361,"end":24904.192,"text":"在原鄉那邊六天的雨量幾乎是2800公里以上已經跟莫拉克差不多甚至於超過這個洋流風速有14 15級所以這個在屏東在台東也應該要感受一下因為你現在這個災害也分不清了院長這樣可以嗎"},{"start":24906.387,"end":24927.032,"text":"這次的特別預算名稱重來叫做中央政府淡浪式颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建我們知道728之後是連續性的豪雨豪雨到楊柳颱風來我想這是一個連貫性的氣候的變遷那麼我日前到南部去的時候我們已經正式的有公佈"},{"start":24928.372,"end":24951.96,"text":"楊柳颱風首受的災害因為它也是在七二八之後的連續豪雨它應該歸納整個適用範圍好 第二個謝謝謝謝院長我對你民視第二個問題就是這一次的楊柳颱風在我們屏東我們霧台 山頂門就是大社那邊五間柱 十六戶的街柱都 土都崩壞了現在這裡要求說"},{"start":24958.18,"end":24984.695,"text":"以前你那裡 八八風災的時候永久屋他們沒有下來 也沒有竊竊下來像這一些是不是可以從寬的來跟他處理這個院長可以考慮嗎實際的狀況是不是請屏東縣政府跟我們的前進指揮所的辦公室一起來研究我們希望用更簡便的方法從優從寬來認定"},{"start":24986.786,"end":25015.612,"text":"因為這個對他們來講是一輩子的大事啦對我們來講可能是小事那上次我在關心的就是從寬的認定剛剛好幾位委員也都一樣大家都很關心我發現這個災害不管哪一個政黨都非常關心而且都是以百姓人民的出發點真的是很溫暖啦謝謝大家用非常快的速度通過了特別的條例以及今天來審查特別預算 謝謝"},{"start":25016.308,"end":25034.496,"text":"那再來就是我們農損從寬洞認定上次我提的就是像嘉義那個蚵仔麵一盤補五百塊沒中對不對對啦 叫那個香港社會的人要坐白車去現場那去想那時候去看那時候那風雲那麼大說如果有這麼的苛刻這樣無聊的一個農業部居然會這種要求"},{"start":25045.799,"end":25072.23,"text":"用空拍機 用搖桿這個真的很現代化的東西所以不要再去做那些很無聊 違反科學的空拍機現在那麼多 無聯機那麼多只要去去不去全品項 全方位剛剛你講的嘛我們要以百姓為優先嘛我就一直在講農業部最大存在的價值就是照顧這三百萬農漁牧的"},{"start":25075.222,"end":25096.028,"text":"我們的人民 我們的國民 農漁牧三百萬人所以關稅應用特別 他們也很歡樂到現在不知道有沒有透明都搞不清楚所以這個一定要 院長一定要好好的把持這些人這是我們的國民我們最疼惜的 好不好"},{"start":25097.149,"end":25116.165,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是現在目前的勘災的部分在路上就是用勘災APP照相以後公所就會認定那這個部分大概大部分的很多公所都已經確認可以用這個了那您至於說海上的部分我們也寫到公所是可以必要的時候我們用空拍機去直接去拍"},{"start":25116.806,"end":25137.681,"text":"然後如果要出去看的時候 一定要風平浪靜這個我想我們也會在公所會確認那後續我們會把海上的這些空拍的系統直接納到一個現勘的一個作業規範裡面好 謝謝 部長很辛苦 表現非常好那剛剛有好幾個委員也在講你那坡座的金魚 農損的金額部長 院長我還要跟你講一次"},{"start":25141.909,"end":25149.121,"text":"你用成本的20%來補助然後你的榮損的金額就是用那20%"},{"start":25151.012,"end":25178.196,"text":"所以你每次公佈的農損的金額都是很少那這樣是顯示什麼顯示說災害很輕還是你在蒙蔽什麼院長 這種計算方式是不是要改這個標準應該是行之多年一直沒有檢討那農業部應該來檢討去面對這樣極端氣候全面檢討是必要的"},{"start":25178.556,"end":25204.457,"text":"對啦 用這種農損我每次都看不下去雖說生死五十億你告訴我生死五五六千萬 笑死人了 對不對我們會衡量現在整個財政的結構盡量來幫助農漁民你用你的身份的二十八來補助我上次講了嘛 育兒包一分多如果能收成 能收二三十萬結果你一分多補助六千八千"},{"start":25206.384,"end":25226.816,"text":"可能補償的方式沒有辦法達到市價或是實際價錢我們是讓他能夠再起這個做跟做的這個作用幫他能夠重新再能夠起來這個才是我們的作用有一點點感而且一塊農地一年才補助一次喔"},{"start":25229.524,"end":25249.913,"text":"所以這個真的要提高不是我講的 剛才歐陽也講了郭國文也講了 丁丁啊所以這個要檢討啦我們請農業部來檢討讓他能夠重新復耕能力這樣的方式來做檢討好 那再來 我在跟你講我們東港的這營業你今天要給我答應我今天要再出來當天跟你喝水啊不是每天如果大大流"},{"start":25257.193,"end":25283.446,"text":"上潮、大潮就陰 當天接下來有一個成功搜水站有一個關戶搜水站 那是你馬英九時代你阿扁時代就起了 現在這邊這裡存通常大排還有有無缺收集的地方 如果大潮開那裡有做水財 那些水財面我去廢坑久了幾年了就好像插在京府 岸邊有很多人"},{"start":25284.676,"end":25302.502,"text":"對 把他關心一下 把他打贏一下這是笑死人 一個又贏兩次 又分開來製作的提升兩邊的戶籍是一個方式或是如果有抽水站 抽水機加大他抽派的這個作品沒錯 做個抽水站在那邊就比較"},{"start":25303.959,"end":25332.166,"text":"既然那兩咖 安就該過了這如果做了 永遠一輩子都感謝你經濟部水利署去現場了解我們能夠緊急的或是優先來處理我們來納入現場不然的話你看這個每一個菸兩次來 下一張我們來講這個就是損害的部分我不用在最初剛剛已經有講了溫室的東西啦我這一次發現屏東的韌性比較強"},{"start":25333.376,"end":25357.922,"text":"屏東一天到晚外國起床所以這間林佳嵐真的是百年沒有颱風直撲陳部長常常去我常常去屏東勘災所以大家的記憶很重所以我這次看台南那邊的災害真的是很大很突然所以一定要要慣練那屏東台東比照嘛好 下一張"},{"start":25360.977,"end":25368.843,"text":"我現在再來就是跟環境部有關我們環境部處理這一個嘉義那個我們有去現勘我們有去勘這是同工 家當的外海"},{"start":25381.823,"end":25410.257,"text":"那個太陽能板 現在知道那個公司是台灣的公司標標的 叫做宜專豪泰國的公司 我不知道啦這如果是違法就要板啦你給他發三百萬 三百萬 三百萬 給他發三百萬他也不給你信到啊你說什麼要請去廟 你請去就要去分解就現場就給你搞啦 就給你分解啦部長 院長 這你看啊 你看下去"},{"start":25411.7,"end":25438.415,"text":"報告委員那個元玉科技的元玉科技那個公司他已經被我們罰到900萬了他也提出一個清理的計畫書當然我們還是給他時間因為他有給我們一個新的承諾書是9月5號以前在這個池 現在池的上面已經沒有了自動池上面沒有了是他放在旁邊但是我們認為他還是違反廢清法而且我們還是給他一點點時間他們提出來希望9月5號以前我們現在正在審他的這個計畫"},{"start":25439.595,"end":25466.117,"text":"如果他真的是非常糟糕的話我已經公開說了我會接手而且代位求償然後給他最重的處罰甚至他以後都沒有辦法營運所以這個他要負起責任的另外一個剛剛委員說的是屏東的三寶這個已經被我們退回去了希望他們再補正因為這邊算是什麼優良的農地他們必須考量限地的一個狀況所以我們其實環境部已經退回去了"},{"start":25466.966,"end":25494.512,"text":"院長 我看家裡那個光電板那個可能是擺爛 要不然放到桌子裡到樓尾或是政府要去檢查環境部是強力的要求他我們到現場去看我也強力的要求他那都 山館是誰人的是公司都炒不夠 亂七八糟相同地區有其他的我們本土的廠商跟我們配合的意願結果都很好就這一家 他這個態度上我覺得大有問題"},{"start":25495.976,"end":25517.826,"text":"環境部已經連續開發 而且有更強硬的手段郭委員 我們台灣壞了三十幾個地方大的三十幾個地方 其他都清完了只剩下這個地方 就是新莊 志鴻池我們看那個老批農場這個剛剛部長有講 我非常欽佩你把這個三家公司 院長這就是屏東內部的老批農場 這裡有八百公頃"},{"start":25525.382,"end":25538.008,"text":"平地茶 有坡度的茶現在整個都要弄光電盤 三家公司也是水土保護區什麼區什麼區都有然後我們的環境部把它退回"},{"start":25540.109,"end":25566.964,"text":"我覺得很有勇氣不過我看他會再檢討重來我們不要再破壞我們的環境了好不好再搞一搞又變成土石油了不會 我已經公開宣布地方有重大疑慮的 破壞生態的我們的疑慮不應該核准好 院長的承諾好 這個是更誇張的我們的台東沿岸要踩50多公里風車"},{"start":25569.13,"end":25587.107,"text":"現在要去屏東的榜山還有獅子鄉要再採11基然後東海岸反風車大聯盟已經成立我們屏東這裡我們加入了叫做東海岸南迴恆春半島反風車大聯盟這就是預計在榜山要採的"},{"start":25593.569,"end":25612.925,"text":"這個一個風車造價2012年是1.2億 1.3億現在可能搞不好2億都要以前海上的風車一隻要8億現在可能要十幾億所以這個成本很高然後賣給台電賣到6塊 7塊 8塊"},{"start":25616.223,"end":25635.274,"text":"然後1.1塊錢的核能你不用你去用7、8塊錢的然後虧損一大堆這個都是要新蓋的喔然後一支一電的風車一年的發電量最多五、六百萬度五、六百萬度而已喔然後它的低頻"},{"start":25636.943,"end":25655.018,"text":"所以他們現在反對大聯盟那我屏東也加入他們要組團來環境部來經濟部抗爭我說我支持你們台東的也要加入這也不能再亂了啦花東那邊都是"},{"start":25656.311,"end":25665.728,"text":"大颱風來 首當其衝 十六級 十七級一定 整兩天來年十七級 爆表那風車動會掉嗎 那風車要怎麼回去"},{"start":25670.692,"end":25696.063,"text":"報告委員 我以前已經在台東有公開說對於這樣的我們是不鼓勵也不支持那他現在是他想要開發但是也報告委員我們在過去這幾個月我們已經把幾個類似這樣的案例全部擋掉了 全部退回了所以請委員放心因為有剩下30秒 一定 我要跟你說你最近去屏東 我都沒出息我都不會去 是怎樣你敢知道"},{"start":25697.734,"end":25724.841,"text":"沒有通知 不通知是載人有的人愛通知就通知不要通知就不要通知第一 去到現場我們好像透明人一樣我們在野黨的委員好像透明人一樣感覺很差喔我最近幾次到各縣市看災我都特別要求我們不要那個儀式型的簡報 講話等等我只要聽聽現場的狀況所以我們都沒有公開的儀式也不會主動的通知那這一點"},{"start":25736.433,"end":25752.229,"text":"好 謝謝蘇清泉委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長備詢 謝謝好 接下來我們請邱義營委員質詢王弘威委員請準備"},{"start":25772.078,"end":25792.103,"text":"好 謝謝韓院長我是不是請一下行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好院長"},{"start":25792.933,"end":25811.985,"text":"院長好 院長我想這幾天相當辛苦連續站在備詢台上今天要針對丹納斯颱風跟728豪雨的災後重建特別預算來跟您請教院長我剛剛很認真的聽您的報告關於丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨"},{"start":25813.326,"end":25825.339,"text":"桃園區在728開始的8天桃園區下了2423毫米這個已經逼近莫拉克的紀錄所以這個豪雨造成了有10萬戶停電農損大概2萬公頃損失超過10億元"},{"start":25829.884,"end":25844.064,"text":"所以立法院在很快的速度包括行政院送來的這個丹納斯的特別條例預算我們很快的速度來進入院會要來今天進行詢問不過院長我要請教一下我們現在這個預算編列600億對不對是"},{"start":25847.688,"end":25870.216,"text":"這個預算600億是上限呢還是他只是現在先框了一個600億未來有沒有追加的可能您的報告裡頭沒有談到這個部分但是財政部長的報告裡面呢卻很清楚的寫到說這個依丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例第五條規定經費上限為新台幣600億元"},{"start":25872.113,"end":25893.305,"text":"院長我為什麼要特別請教這件事情就是說到底這個是上限還是需求評估當年莫拉克我們也便利了一千億但是最後因為不夠所以還追加超過兩千億那如果現在行政院就把它訂定為上限只有六百億的話未來能不能追加那還有沒有舉債的空間"},{"start":25893.945,"end":25912.117,"text":"跟委員報告這個旦那斯颱風以及這個728乃至於大家關心0802往後的數日的災害所造成的損害我們編這個特別預算當然目前我們編的預算規模是600億那我們希望600億能夠去解決現在的問題"},{"start":25913.298,"end":25931.138,"text":"縱然未來還有更多的狀況發生或是我們編列的預算不夠還是仍然可以透過特別預算追加預算的程序來辦理但我們希望在這當中我們用600億能夠大家很準確的來使用善用這個公帑把事情給做好這是現在的原則"},{"start":25931.82,"end":25952.723,"text":"好 如果是這樣 院長這個我看到我特別有準備了一個框框這是你的這個600億大概用在水利設施 電力系統 農業設施 道路跟這個所謂的社會復原那我就一項一項來請教您首先我要跟您請教的是在農業設施的部分"},{"start":25953.703,"end":25978.843,"text":"你現在農業設施編列了101億剛才包括很多的委員包括這個郭國文委員也好或者是蘇清泉委員也好我們來自農業地區的大概就會很關心到底這個農業設施編列101億夠不夠院長您實際去了六龜對不對我讓您看一下這個是您那天去沒有看到的照片這個是甲仙這兩天"},{"start":25980.708,"end":25996.902,"text":"阻塞成了一個艷澀湖我們在昨天前天緊急的把它疏通了所以這個艷澀湖現在解決了但是我很擔心未來他還是會有再形成艷澀湖的可能性那你看到右手邊的這兩個圖一個是在六龜地區的六金橋"},{"start":25997.683,"end":26016.039,"text":"一個是在寶萊的高133的道路這一些土石堆積成這樣其實都是從山上土石流大量的泥沙帶著巨石崩落然後阻塞了道路的通行這個就是在六龜看到的狀況但是"},{"start":26017.5,"end":26040.145,"text":"農業部林保署對於林業的這個防治我常常覺得他們是頭痛醫頭 腳痛醫腳因為他不能過度開發所以每一次有大雨來的時候有地震來的時候有颱風來的時候山上的土石流造成了道路的回堵那每一年我們都要配置很多的怪手在旁邊stand by"},{"start":26041.205,"end":26065.435,"text":"可是這個問題永遠沒有辦法解決所以現在農業設施編列的101億元有沒有包含這一些治山治水的計畫部長我跟委員報告在100.66億裡面大概跟治山防洪的部分大概有51.10的部分大概就會處理這個治山防洪的部分"},{"start":26066.704,"end":26087.962,"text":"然後將近50億是在處理農糧還有漁業的這些專案部分所以你置山防洪大概是50億嘛是不是這樣那50億你要怎麼分配高雄會分配多少因為你這一次的受災不是只有在高雄地區啊對我知道這個部分這個院長你再看一下這張照片這是今天早上我們去現場會刊的照片這個也是在六龜啊"},{"start":26088.582,"end":26100.632,"text":"也是因為這次好雨沖刷這原來是一條大的排水浚溝那現在變成這樣子整個陸基是滔工旁邊的是一個山莊那旁邊的居民都非常的擔憂"},{"start":26103.561,"end":26130.379,"text":"這個修復道路的修復是公路局要去修復可是泥水沖刷大雨沖刷來是因為山上的土石流太過於嚴重所以部長我要跟您討論就是說未來在林務署的治山治水的部分你們在山上所做的藍沙壩或是山上能不能有一些基礎的建設來防止這樣子的大量的土石崩落"},{"start":26131.32,"end":26153.908,"text":"能不能再多做一些什麼東西我想跟委員報告其實在我們明年度就是那個系統性治水的方案裡面從集水機到波渡到下游的農田水利的部分它是串接在一起的農業部的年度的預算從上游到一直到下游大概有120億但是今年因為有前瞻還有易後的部分有到170億"},{"start":26155.248,"end":26177.176,"text":"那這個部分我想我們會盡量的去處理這個部分那第二個部分是您剛才說的就是說有一部分因為我們在這次特別災害在列入的時候是經過公共工程委員會去詢問的地方政府所需要的部分會納入那如果說在那個時間點沒有納入的話我想農業部也會用我們自己的預算去處理"},{"start":26177.97,"end":26196.601,"text":"其實部長這些東西這些點你應該都很清楚因為我們也談過很多次也去會堪過很多次包括你們林務署也都非常的清楚我今天只是特別把這個照片讓院長知道這個治山治水那個照片一條道路還有房子在我想那個是急迫性的危險"},{"start":26197.741,"end":26215.814,"text":"這個是非常急迫性的危險院長你看到下面的路基是完全掏空它其實不是一條道路它其實本來是一個很大的排水溝它旁邊都是有泥做的排水溝是整個被沖刷掉了然後現在道路掏空接下來除了治山治水的部分以外"},{"start":26216.855,"end":26234.601,"text":"接下來要跟大家要跟部長您談到的或者是跟院長請教的就是在農業災損的部分我們現在講到農業災損我們是立即補助超過八成的補助但農業設施我們也是在補助不過我們最近我們幾位立委提出了一個新的概念叫做以租換貸"},{"start":26236.081,"end":26256.4,"text":"我們過去的農業的設施是讓農民去貸款嘛可是你看到現在這個農業設施垂潘繚繚啊他之前的貸款都不知道要行但是已經賣掉了他沒錢要怎麼再去再去省錢要一架的貸款所以對農民來講這個是雪上加霜來下一頁好"},{"start":26257.359,"end":26270.264,"text":"這一個概念提出來之後農信保基金說這個是可行的但是農糧署說這個不可行因為你們今年的補助才剛剛給所以現在不能夠再改現在不能夠再給"},{"start":26271.752,"end":26292.725,"text":"院長你會不會覺得這個太過於僵化啦能不能有一些彈性的調整或是一個這樣的一個新的措施能不能納入思考我跟委員報告如果農糧署做這樣的回答我代替農糧署跟您說抱歉啦其實以政策面來講我是支持這個方向而且我特別去開會了那現在要處理的是兩個問題一個是"},{"start":26295.323,"end":26316.252,"text":"溫室的業者他現在有沒有能力蓋這個東西因為他們現在都在修其他的地方所以我才會說我們在年底之前我們一定會成立完整的一個規劃出來而且先用示範場域的方式去處理那示範場域的部分可能有一部分牽涉到台塘地的部分我們會跟經濟部還有台塘去做協商"},{"start":26317.173,"end":26325.487,"text":"讓他真正的有一個business model以後那這樣的話溫室業者也願意自動投入然後後面的融資就是由農信寶這邊來處理"},{"start":26327.805,"end":26351.442,"text":"我是覺得很多的政策應該是要快速然後要能夠彈性的運用要能夠針對到農民 災民的需求如果你現在還要有一個business model出來的話會不會到時候農民會覺得這個東西其實是看得到吃不到你的研議啦 然後又要盤點啦 又要計算啦然後又要計算它到底有沒有利潤可回收"},{"start":26352.594,"end":26372.473,"text":"我還是期待以租換代這件事情是不是能夠請院長也能夠指示農業部我們盡速的加速的去研議然後把我們的對於農業設施的不管是補助也好對於農業設施的這一些減免我覺得這個政策能夠做一個大幅的調整院長這可以嗎"},{"start":26373.137,"end":26401.499,"text":"我們到各縣市區的時候我親口聽見部長也是在講這樣的概念所以委員的建議跟部長的想法是一樣現在我們把想的東西把它融合為一用一個比較完整周延的方式那對剛剛農糧署所提出的他應該有他的依據我們叫他做解釋清楚以部長的這個方式如果說我們的概念想法是一樣那是不是我們就加速來推動加速來進行我們一定會加速 好不好來 下一位 接下來要跟"},{"start":26402.299,"end":26431.025,"text":"部長談到的我們講到了土石流來但是其實在這一次有很多的災民是無家可歸的因為土石流淹沒了他的家過去莫拉克的時候因為是大幅的滅村所以我們建置了永久屋但是這一次因為土石流導致家屋全毀的沒有永久屋可以住我們現在只有講說修繕或者是補貼他租屋您知道在鄉下地區要租屋不是那麼樣的容易"},{"start":26431.525,"end":26459.343,"text":"那我覺得在永久屋的建置上面大安園區其實還有空地有沒有可能去做一些研議讓政府現在先蓋一些臨時的永久屋我覺得方便未來或者是現在的災民如果有這樣的需求其實我們是可以協助他們的我覺得這個是不是也能夠請內政部來納入考量在我們的整個幫助災民的租屋方面"},{"start":26460.463,"end":26488.067,"text":"納入考量可以嗎是類似組合屋的概念嗎是我們這次在當當是颱風之後有跟地方政府聯繫如果有需要有組合屋我們來想辦法但到目前為止都沒有得到說有需求如果說有需求有啦我們有這個需求啦但是因為我們地方政府就把它直接處理掉了我現在要談的就是說整個大方向透過我們這個災後重建第二要談到就是說道路的建設其實這次道路損壞非常嚴重嘛"},{"start":26488.447,"end":26506.113,"text":"但是我看到您的報告裡面只有講到道路的建設要花89億但是道路建好了之後附近受災的觀光復蘇好像沒有包含在這一些重建的計畫裡頭這個是不是也能夠把它補足進去六龜寶萊地區的道路復蘇之後"},{"start":26508.874,"end":26532.643,"text":"到底他的觀光能不能一併協助復蘇這個我也很期待交通部跟觀光署也能夠來協助我們六龜跟甲仙甚至桃園原住民地區的這些觀光的復蘇計畫你現在看起來只有道路交通建設那你的道路計畫橋樑計畫是不是能夠有一些不同的思維您看到這個土石已經都快跟橋一樣高了"},{"start":26533.123,"end":26552.263,"text":"所以未來交通部在這些道路建設計畫裡頭是不是能夠有一些新的設計新的構想是 報告委員因為我們有到現場去看您也在現場整個河川的流向已經完全改變了所以未來整個道路的設計當然會順著現在大自然改變的方向下去改變設計這是必然要做的"},{"start":26552.643,"end":26577.937,"text":"那您剛所提到的觀光的問題我們等硬體的建設先完成之後後續我們會來思考怎麼樣透過活動把旅客帶到現在的災區因為大家對於災區的印象都還是災區的那個樣子但是等它完成之後你不能等你的硬體全部都做好以後才開始要做觀光的復甦那可能又是好幾年之後了我們目前已經都在計畫當中但是要等硬體完成之後我們開始帶旅客到現在的道路如果"},{"start":26578.417,"end":26595.811,"text":"已經搶通安全無虞的狀態之下我覺得其實是可以某一個程度上去協助災區的這些觀光的付出好 可以 那我們就提早現在先到災區去了解看現在可以辦什麼樣子的活動好 最後一個部長我要跟您討論的就是電網防災任性的部分來 那兩位部長可以請回"},{"start":26598.513,"end":26617.97,"text":"每一次颱風來或者是大雨來其實院長你可以看到台電總是最忙碌最辛苦的台電一千億的撥補在立法院屢次都不通過但是只要停電大家就會開始一直希望台電趕快去復電我今天要跟您談的是防災任性來下一頁"},{"start":26620.927,"end":26633.303,"text":"這個院長您看一下這個照片這個是在屏東的獅子鄉在原住民地區過去因為我們幾次的風災山上常常會受損嚴重所以台電在獅子鄉有做了防災型的微電網"},{"start":26634.525,"end":26661.853,"text":"那防災型的微電網在屋頂上架置太陽能板底下有個大概兩坪大的除電系統就可以預防或者是因應因為風災水災造成的停電那這一次一樣啊在桃園納馬下茂林的山區一樣遇到這些問題工程車開不進去停電停了三天如果我們的防災韌性電網的計劃能夠加速推動到原住民地區去優先設置"},{"start":26662.873,"end":26666.243,"text":"或者您可以設置加護的這個能不能讓經濟部盡速的來研議來推動"},{"start":26669.404,"end":26695.014,"text":"這個特殊地區的微電網設置一直是經濟部台電他們在規劃的過程當中請市長來回應跟委員報告我們這次有編了8億元就是要做這件事情8億夠不夠啊這8億根本蓋不了幾戶啊是 我們會優先在一些偏遠而且容易形成孤島地區的災區優先來設置我們未來也會逐步看這個成效我們會複製"},{"start":26708.981,"end":26729.655,"text":"好 謝謝邱毅英委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長貝勳 謝謝接下來王宏威委員質詢完畢之後我們將會休息十分鐘卓院長請喝水好 謝謝接下來我們請王宏威委員請質詢"},{"start":26737.776,"end":26758.322,"text":"好 謝謝主席請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢不好意思 請問一下今天經濟部有沒有過來有次長有來是次長請經濟部備詢王委員好"},{"start":26768.429,"end":26794.556,"text":"好 院長 次長在我們這次災後重建預算裡面有一筆非常重要的就是因為這次它缺電的時間非常多很長所以在特別預算裡面有編列了防災韌性就是有關於電網韌性相關的預算我們把它算一下大概"},{"start":26796.038,"end":26810.017,"text":"全部加起來超過100億109億1720萬這是有關於電網韌性的部分在我們的災後重建基金重建預算裡面"},{"start":26811.338,"end":26825.612,"text":"另外我们现在还有一个特别条例也送过来当然很多人讲是普发现金跟支援产业因应对等关税但是其中又是有一个电网任性"},{"start":26827.113,"end":26837.857,"text":"200億所以我們追加預算 對不起兩個特別預算災後重建跟強化韌性特別條例兩個預算309億要補貼給電網韌性那我們都知道在"},{"start":26844.719,"end":26856.943,"text":"上一次今年度的台電的1000億的預算裡面撥補1000億我們把它刪掉所以我想請問一下這個電網韌性真的是用於電網韌性還是變相的撥補這是第一個問題第二個問題我想請問院長"},{"start":26865.117,"end":26872.985,"text":"您知不知道台電在過去曾經推出超過5600億的電網韌性方案請問次長這個方案已經執行幾年了"},{"start":26881.936,"end":26905.525,"text":"跟委員報告這個方案已經從111年我們有編列預算到現在已經第4年最主要我們是把過去集中式的電網希望能夠把它改成分散式的電網也就是這邊講到第一項分散工程第二項強固工程的部分就是一些老舊的設施我們要把它汰換甚至我們要擴充一些我現在問你的是"},{"start":26906.625,"end":26923.812,"text":"它一共是幾年的計劃5600多億幾年計劃跟委員報告這本來是10年的計劃我們希望把它縮短成6年現在要縮短6年執行到第4年了用了多少錢"},{"start":26927.904,"end":26936.51,"text":"我們回去再提供資料給委員連你用多少錢你都不知道但是你現在要跟我們再要309億所以我要問的是"},{"start":26942.051,"end":26968.585,"text":"從111年台電就已經針對電網韌性部分就是因為過去這樣很多小動物小松鼠蛇什麼穿山甲一大堆的所以說要用電網韌性也用了5645億我們政府還參加台電的增資對不對為了要增加這些錢我只問錢去哪裡了"},{"start":26969.751,"end":26996.521,"text":"為什麼如果按照10年計劃每一年起碼有超過560億在執行然後執行到現在你還要錢跟我們報告 這裡面的多也要錢 又也要錢這裡面的110億是針對這一次那麼大的電塔倒下來還有3000多根電桿倒下來要去修護的錢所以在特別條例裡面我們有沒有擋你們嗎任性條例的是我們要針對幾個科學園區我們發覺"},{"start":26999.582,"end":27013.229,"text":"任性不足 我們要把它加強那您說的那個本來10年5600億我們把它縮短4年到現在應該是縮短總共6年 因為執行2年到現在錢多少 花了多少錢你花多少錢都沒有辦法告訴我"},{"start":27017.651,"end":27042.013,"text":"就只是一味的要錢原來強化的計畫逐年在進行所以前兩部分是新增加出來的想法因為我任性起碼要了300億這兩個特別條例5645億錢花到哪裡去錢花了什麼你現在把它變成6年花了多少錢我也都不知道我們請台電馬上整理出來向委員報告請盡快整理那是逐年該做的事情所以我們一再講"},{"start":27043.234,"end":27068.022,"text":"我們為什麼要監督對不對我們為什麼要審查預算不是刪預算叫做亂刪預算所以委員提出的 否則的話立法院不需要立法委員只要有一個橡皮圖章就好了你要多少錢我就代給你就好了委員提出的這個問題我們就必須要完整的向委員做說明好 那先時間暫停一下次長可以請回我請環境部長時間暫停 請環境部長備詢"},{"start":27082.645,"end":27095.762,"text":"在這次的丹納斯颱風一直到後來的風災,光電板、光電垃圾、光電粉末引起了國人的重視。"},{"start":27097.236,"end":27116.065,"text":"那你一開始說他沒有毒啊那我們覺得沒有毒那為什麼一定要趕快去清理呢那一個有13.5萬片受損災後一個月光電板仍然沒有清完請問一下部長到底什麼時候才會把它清的完"},{"start":27116.53,"end":27140.606,"text":"好 報告委員第一個是當地的很多的漁民告訴我說因為很多人說光電板有毒 魚都不能吃所以造成他們的困擾他們要我一定要說得出來那我們也的確到現場測了三次的滯洪池因為那個都不是雨溫 滯洪池的水質並沒有任何的重金屬或各種的污染所以我才說出來讓大家可以知道所以我並不是說像委員說的"},{"start":27141.54,"end":27157.686,"text":"至於說清楚基本上我們在發生災害的兩個禮拜後其實已經清楚遠離池面上現在33個受損的案場只剩下一個場就叫新莊之虹子就是某一家公司只剩下一個場所以你覺得清理的成績很棒囉"},{"start":27159.206,"end":27183.073,"text":"當然那家公司他要自己清除他要自己負責清除的什麼時候 清到什麼時候他目前給我們的承諾因為我們已經罰到最重的300萬可以連續連續再開罰那他最近給我們的一個計劃書趕快給我一個時間嘛他是預計在9月5號那我們就在審查當中9月5號 好如果仍然不能清除政府要接手嗎"},{"start":27184.193,"end":27204.34,"text":"如果他還是這樣破壞環境我們會依照廢清法71條我們要代位求償我們來清除然後跟他全部的清查表示說我們保護這個環境所以9月5號如果仍然不能清除政府會去接手委員這個接手是我們幫我們環境討回這個公道不是說我們要來付錢"},{"start":27205.299,"end":27212.924,"text":"我了解啊 你都還沒看我後面我就說要向業者求償啊我當然知道 我怎麼會讓你付錢呢憑什麼讓我們付錢啊憑什麼讓我們納稅人付錢啊你怎麼還會講這個答案"},{"start":27218.206,"end":27245.146,"text":"我的意思是說你們什麼時候會接手基本上我們還在審他的計畫書合不合理因為那家公司已經黃流非常多次了這一次事件 院長這一次事件非常特殊我們發展能源這個光電板造成了光電垃圾然後污染我們的製洪池污染我們的農田 污染我們的海域到目前為止都還沒有清完行政效率之低"},{"start":27248.608,"end":27261.367,"text":"只剩下一個 你再講啊 只剩下一個從現在到那次颱風已經多久了 超過一個月 只剩下一個所以我要給你怎麼樣 我給你按個讚好不好"},{"start":27263.285,"end":27290.49,"text":"那個是廠商自己要負的責任那個是廠商自己要負的責任喔院長我今天一個一個問他一直覺得他做得很好我不懂欸我們要強力監督這些廠商強力監督 監督到現在還沒有清完好 另外我為什麼再講我說政府先接手要再向業者求償但是但是現在包含光電很多光電真的 其實倒閉的很多啦"},{"start":27291.874,"end":27308.333,"text":"倒閉的很多因為他們很多都是跟銀行貸款的他可以這樣子拍拍屁股走人所以我們這個其實未來要把它建立一套SOP這是像違建一樣違建也是一樣你不拆有時候政府代為"},{"start":27309.634,"end":27329.239,"text":"然後代為執行然後是要跟業者求償的但是如果業者倒閉如果業者拍拍屁股走人的時候那這個錢跟誰去清償所以我希望這個案例這一次的教訓我們要建立一套SOP可不可以 院長我們從"},{"start":27332.543,"end":27349.796,"text":"歷次的這個案件當中我們都會去深刻的檢討如果讓速度更快 支持面更廣泛那我們的韌性能夠更加強這三個不足我日期已經講過了我希望你們趕快建立SOB時間拜託暫停一下 請部長請回我要請勞動部長時間暫停 請勞動部備詢勞動部長有來嗎"},{"start":27361.767,"end":27385.437,"text":"因為他不再重建好我把想成追加預算沒問題勞動部沒有來沒有好院長在上個星期我特別針對救安基金的部分你應該回去應該有所瞭解也就是被踢爆的羅景任導演"},{"start":27386.854,"end":27410.982,"text":"他的三個案子都已經被審計部的調查報告裡面直接揪出弊端要求救安基金把這個錢回補進去就是因為他的用途是不符合相關規定的好那你以為就是羅景任導演一個人的事情嗎一個團隊的事"},{"start":27412.872,"end":27440.525,"text":"結果我們再深入追查這個救安基金太有鬼了因為它全部都是用開口合約連續三年開口合約每一年都跟三個廠商來簽約這三個廠商每一年都一模一樣民視 年代 三立驚不驚喜"},{"start":27441.943,"end":27468.402,"text":"意不意外搞了半天這個已經被審計部揪出有弊端的三年的開口合約原來真正的廠商是民視三立年代這都是被我們認為跟綠營關係特別好稱之為綠媒有的人稱之為黨媒"},{"start":27470.37,"end":27474.733,"text":"每一年它的金額3100萬3700萬3700多萬合計三年一億通通集中這三個廠商"},{"start":27483.744,"end":27499.544,"text":"這麼集中這麼湊巧過去我們也講過立法院預算中心就提過我們過去很多的標案特別是梅軒的部分過度集中我記得院長針對這個事情的時候你也認為如果有這樣的問題應該有所檢討對不對是"},{"start":27503.373,"end":27532.613,"text":"可是現在的問題來了當然111年112年113年度不是你的你當院長但是他發生的果然又過度集中不但過度集中而且都是開口契約更扯的是這個開口契約最後他結案請款跟原來他契約的內容完全部分不相符合所以為什麼被監察院的審計部揪出弊端"},{"start":27533.813,"end":27561.249,"text":"譬如說他裡面的這些開口契約他裡面並沒有什麼音樂會他生出一個音樂會就是許明春的音樂會生出了一個音樂會本來他應該是製作影片他應該要有35個好35個影片結果呢沒有他用一個"},{"start":27563.663,"end":27575.029,"text":"一個音樂會然後剪出好幾個影片來用這樣來交差一個演唱會謝謝你一個演唱會交差了"},{"start":27577.698,"end":27601.017,"text":"還有呢他裡面別說要求有影片要5支你要有網路媒體宣傳電視脫波好5支影片來了他只拍了一部影片你要5支影片對不對這5支影片這5支影片就是這一部影片我給你剪成5個1分鐘的影片交差也拿到錢"},{"start":27602.967,"end":27630.478,"text":"你都笑了可以這樣嗎所以審計部過不了關再來影片兩支 廣告短片一支也是網路行銷電視拖播很厲害拍一支影片上下集給你一樣錢照樣拿到每一年都可以拿到1000多萬所以我在上個禮拜就講如果"},{"start":27631.857,"end":27659.031,"text":"如果你們行政院不究責的話勞動部不究責的話竟然還說救安基金現在這些省基部不認賬的認為有弊端的你還想要編列到公務預算我們絕對不容許所以院長我上個星期就質詢請問一下有關於救安基金的這些弊端"},{"start":27660.35,"end":27676.236,"text":"你有去指示嗎你有要求調查嗎洪部長上任我要他做的兩件事一個是對於霸凌事件全面調查第二是提升整個勞動部甚至包括北分署裡面的士氣工作士氣後來我看看各種的"},{"start":27678.763,"end":27702.23,"text":"情況一直在發生我再度要求他就救安基金要全面的去盤查到目前為止我也是這樣跟大家說如果委員說的如果委員剛剛說的就是事情的全貌或者是一部分我會請勞動部將全貌跟委員報告我們再來找出現在應該有的責任那如果該"},{"start":27703.888,"end":27710.956,"text":"法辦 我們就法辦他已經在程序當中了院長 我剛才講的狀況不是我王宏威說的事實機構的調查報告所以你一定要對此有所回應調查清楚不要再用納稅人權去填補這些原封不章的推遲和漏洞好不好"},{"start":27727.981,"end":27738.373,"text":"好 謝謝王宏文委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢謝謝我們休息之後我們請陳冠廷委員準備質詢現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":28366.499,"end":28393.5,"text":"報告委員會 我們繼續開會接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢楊瓊英委員請準備你好 請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":28404.531,"end":28433.364,"text":"安國元好 市長好上次我們主要是針對農業那這是我們針對災後的觀光產業的這個復興的一些方案來跟院長做討論那主要是針對我們嘉義縣特別是山區也是受到風災這個影響很重要的很重的這些地方包含我們太平 竹崎 大埔等等這一些的產業的合作社也好或者是這個發展協會或者是各商圈他們急需要的幫助"},{"start":28434.384,"end":28457.111,"text":"院長現在在太平雲梯也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區他每年大概要支付600萬租金給阿里山的管理處再加上3000萬的行政的營運的成本成本就是3600萬左右類似這樣子的情況還有包含族籍的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等這些都是要向阿館處承租"},{"start":28458.251,"end":28479.894,"text":"可是近年不僅僅是一年其實這三年來風災基本上夏季都是非常的嚴重只要有颱風警報那必須就是以安全為主就要關閉所以說遊客它是大幅減少這一次的颱風它不僅僅是颱風當天還有後續的豪雨等於說七八月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯"},{"start":28480.979,"end":28499.357,"text":"再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財契助還有這些帆布設施這些全部都是有我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第4條第9項的文化觀光振興當中是不是可以把這類的重要的觀光設施的紓困來給予納入"},{"start":28502.915,"end":28529.316,"text":"報告委員針對太平的這個地方這個梯的部分我們這個租金會跟他們來討論看怎麼樣減免他們也可以提出申請業者可以提出申請因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多的天災跟風災的狀況另外就是硬體受損的部分我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者或者是說用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通"},{"start":28529.696,"end":28546.071,"text":"好 謝謝部長我是希望說比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助讓他們過衝擊現在剛才提到其實不只是交通部經濟部有推出受災店家的援助方案每戶他是補助一萬元"},{"start":28546.952,"end":28571.01,"text":"不過是要稅籍的證明稅籍證明的部分其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商他們是一個稅籍下是有多個攤位所以我認為說這個申請條件其實也不是我們是一般的鄉親都不斷地來提出來好像過於嚴苛也就是說很多有在經營的攤商他們都有在跟合作社都有往來他不一定有獨立的稅籍他可能沒辦法請你"},{"start":28571.63,"end":28594.035,"text":"所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈 協會有往來但不一定有獨立的稅籍我是不是建議是不是准以合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式呈報當然是要切解來去予以輔助符合我們崇寬認定的精神不知道院長或者是部長 次長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":28595.291,"end":28621.659,"text":"跟委員報告 一些市場攤販的話只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管 有案的話其實我們都可以充寬來認定好 希望就是可以考慮一下我們的建議拿入來考量的去做一個想法再來就是災害保險因為觀光設施有些是天然 有些是人造的有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造的協助的景觀等等"},{"start":28622.839,"end":28635.995,"text":"我們是希望說未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的天災保險機制讓這補助一部分的保費這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速的恢復運作不知道院長怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":28637.962,"end":28658.873,"text":"這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做這個保險的部分確實因為每次遇到天災之後我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害不管是營業方面或者是說硬體設備方面如果有保險的話對他們來說當然是相對是比較安全一些比較有保障一些這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助"},{"start":28660.174,"end":28667.57,"text":"謝謝 院長接下來我要就是要反映地方的公署的一些問題這可能跟政府採購法第105條有關聯"},{"start":28670.609,"end":28691.991,"text":"愛口合約跟緊急採購制度他們有遇到一些瓶頸我舉個例子就是說風災過後中央的經費其實是很快速的到位但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題還有錢但沒辦法動工怎麼說呢比方說我是山區選出的但是其實山海都是一線很多海區他們最基本的路燈來講"},{"start":28692.972,"end":28716.794,"text":"他沒有完全恢復為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復因為過去基層的公所他們的限於年度的開口合約也就是說一規定他必須要派工給原得標廠商可是原本只負責零星維修因為從來沒有從嘉義登入過從來沒有從嘉南平原登入過他現在是要面對數百倍數千倍的突發的維修量的時候量能是不足的"},{"start":28717.555,"end":28728.78,"text":"那行政部門可能會說如同我剛剛講的依照政府採購法第105條有賦予機關用緊急採購的權利但是現在的公所的地方公務員他不敢"},{"start":28729.822,"end":28750.301,"text":"這樣子放手做事 為什麼第一個是違約風險可能被原廠商控告第二個是圖利疑慮他可能沒有經過招標程序再來就是事後究責接下來還要接受政風的單位調查第四就算有 有這個魄力去做迫於公所有限的人力他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件他實在騰不出手來做這些事情"},{"start":28751.002,"end":28778.259,"text":"所以院長我的第一個問題是說行政有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候它有天然的就是先天就有這個能量的限制它沒有辦法緊急搶修所以過了兩個月了不是公所不願意而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做那在法律上當然是有這樣子的法律條文那實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣子的做法所以說為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第105條"},{"start":28779.957,"end":28808.51,"text":"有幾個難題他們公所有反應就是第一個法規沒有明確說明假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候機關要如何合法的把超出的部分直接適用緊急採購這是第一個部分可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動再來就是災後的公所人力勘災通報都忙不過來它很難在短時間內完成大量新的巡駕還有溢價還有簽約的流程我今天講這麼多原因是因為我們跟鄉公所不管是鄉長"},{"start":28811.195,"end":28831.549,"text":"都有類似這樣的問題出現不只是嘉義縣 嘉義縣是鄉我想台南市就是區這樣的問題就確實存在我們是想要請教一下有沒有辦法請你們研擬一下怎麼樣去介入主導怎麼樣是讓第一線的公務人員能夠敢做事 能做事"},{"start":28832.213,"end":28853.124,"text":"好委員所說剛剛除了人力的問題我們另外來來討論來設法之外這種緊急的採購開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於的嚴謹或者說應該還有更可以有彈性但是也要在執行上是可行的或者院長我們請工程會啊"},{"start":28854.486,"end":28882.516,"text":"來做一個討論但是我們就為什麼不敢因為沒有潛力沒有潛力的話就會有剛才提到要嘛是土地要嘛就是這樣的天災要嘛就是後面的陣風但是如果由行政院他提出一個標準的流程依流程規章辦理的話相公所就有機可循就是他就知道說有什麼樣法律如果沒有法律至少有一些規章跟一些辦法那就比較好去從事在有安全集合的機制底下我們在前頭的"},{"start":28883.576,"end":28907.611,"text":"盡量把它開放出來這個速度我們希望加速恢復他們的家園這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討之前我們有提過相公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量再來可能就是要跟災害就關於電信電信的韌性的相關的政策這個部分要請教院長其實院長根據各個新聞報導在我們嘉義布袋"},{"start":28908.496,"end":28933.973,"text":"那幾個電信業者不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍像是之前一段時間台南的七股它那個地區是沒有訊號的也就是說現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡就是說有些可能工股比較多的他願意去投資儘管在偏遠地區他願意去投資更多的基地台比方說中華電信現在有34796座"},{"start":28936.014,"end":28958.541,"text":"占全市長的42.4%其他的電信包含像遠傳是2萬多相差是1.2萬座所以說各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大的差別的我現在問題在於說現在的市場機制沒有辦法來去保證說偏遠的地方或者是說人口不集中的地方它的通訊任性的時候政府應該要扮演什麼角色"},{"start":28959.241,"end":28967.389,"text":"或者是說政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任"},{"start":28968.792,"end":28996.03,"text":"是 跟委員報告在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度這個是大概從電信法時期以來從80幾年以來一直都在持續在推進目前這個業務也雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部但是NCC跟數位部都有密切在合作在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭我們都有要求在偏鄉地區要有增加網路建設的一些容量"},{"start":28997.431,"end":29012.147,"text":"委員提到第二部分,在非偏鄉的部分的建設,因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式,比如說相關民間的業者或國際一些測數的評比,會讓業者有個他律自律的機制。"},{"start":29017.412,"end":29037.42,"text":"那另外如果說他網路品質不好也會民眾會跟NCC來申訴那這個申訴量也是變成是一個約束業者來不斷改進的一個動力可是剛才我提到的如果這樣可以有效的約束業者的話那為什麼他們的投資還是一樣所以這個是"},{"start":29038.74,"end":29064.845,"text":"我們現在有沒有有效的辦法因為現在已經看到狀況是這樣子表示說現在過去你剛剛提到的這些機制沒有成功的要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資是的 就是這一部分的話在投資的產業輔導方面過去在數位被成立之前我們在相關的一些潛在預算也有所補助叫他們要在重要的設施或者偏鄉繼續要加持建設我應該是這麼說好了"},{"start":29065.385,"end":29086.634,"text":"未來這個是義務它不是只是他們只是叫我們求利而已它是符合公共性的要求所以它有強制性的覆蓋性的覆蓋率的義務還有一些備援能力的指標我希望你們能夠有強制性的數字去要求最基本的社會公義它是公家的國家的頻寬國家的資源委員剛剛講到未來是他們的責任"},{"start":29089.495,"end":29108.361,"text":"也是我們共同的責任我說過這次的風災我們發現政府各項甚至包括民生設施的任性不足所以民間業者要負起這個責任他拿了相當大的特許的權利他就必須負起這樣的責任我請通常會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區"},{"start":29109.381,"end":29131.845,"text":"如果他沒有把他的網速服務給他穩定提升的話將來我們在這個地方所造成的城市韌性還是不足所以用這個標準要去跟他要求提出一個改善的計畫來因為我們不講過去我們講未來現在有這個問題我們就來把它解決覆蓋率重要的指標速度這個是民眾直接有感受到的沒有就是沒有不夠就是不夠我要要求業者負起責任"},{"start":29133.086,"end":29144.664,"text":"謝謝 院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部"},{"start":29148.449,"end":29173.265,"text":"如果我們單看水平的棚架的網市或者是塑膠布的溫網市為主的這些農業的統計全台被害面積是495公頃加一線佔397公頃所以是各縣市之水現在他們的反應就是我們的農業反應復耕的貸款程序是非常的繁瑣還會增加基層農會的負擔特別是現行的簡易式的塑膠布溫網市每分地貸款90萬可是如果我"},{"start":29174.205,"end":29180.992,"text":"農友想要改建為結構強固型的文廣室他必須要在額外辦理不管是專業農帶或者是一般性貸款等等"},{"start":29182.964,"end":29208.558,"text":"如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復健貸款跟專業的農貸或者是一般性貸款的兩個文件其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾所以想請教院長是不是可以檢討或者是調整一下政策讓受債農友如果他有意願直接改建為結構型人物往事的時候能夠放開規定跟申請流程直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元減少行政作業上的重複跟不便"},{"start":29209.238,"end":29218.651,"text":"因為如果他們現在就要重建短時間又要錯過住家的時機是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的營運部長你怎麼看這個部分"},{"start":29219.936,"end":29247.977,"text":"我跟委員報告就是您剛才說的就是有一些運往是他在這次巡圍以後他想要直接升級的部分那這個升級的部分的專案貸款的部分那我之前也跟農金署談過他們也同意就是以他最後升級的那個標的強固形的話就用強固形的那個標準來處理而不是用原來復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款所以這個部分已經有解決"},{"start":29249.632,"end":29252.168,"text":"再來就是貸款要點修正扣的適用性"},{"start":29253.497,"end":29280.459,"text":"其實風災之後一開始沒有信心就是要用資金或者是立即重建他們可能會盤點完損失之後評估完市場之後才願意要投資更具耐災性的結構型設施就像我們剛才提到的這種可是現在根據農民組織跟農企業天然災害復耕的貸款要點裡面有說農友必須要受貸證明文件開立一日的15日內辦理貸款如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的後來又改變行業"},{"start":29281.34,"end":29309.737,"text":"可能會超過15日的限制沒有辦法使用不知道部長針對這個部分這個部分我想我們我也跟農經署講過就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候你可能會考慮比較多所以在時間上只要他有拿到那個受災的證明然後他的時間是可以延長而且只要他在一段這個時間不會說一定是15天那我也不希望說要變成一個月兩個月因為他們特別是現在"},{"start":29319.773,"end":29343.3,"text":"好謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝卓院長請喝水好接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢林一軍委員請準備"},{"start":29353.018,"end":29366.147,"text":"院會主席 我們敬愛的韓院長行政院卓院長所領軍的行政團隊各位同仁 新聞界的朋友 楊瓊瑜發言院長 首先邀請卓院長麻煩請卓院長再次備選梁委員好"},{"start":29379.11,"end":29393.818,"text":"院長好這一次呢這個丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨重創了中南部跟花東地區行政院也提出了600億的特別預算立法院"},{"start":29394.278,"end":29420.536,"text":"也在8月15號三讀通過總統也在8月19號也正式公佈所以幫助災民是第一優先這是非常的重要但是我們也要針對於所編列的預算我們一起來討論首先本席要請教這些你們所編列的項目真的是全部提供災後復原所使用嗎請做說明這個部分"},{"start":29422.418,"end":29451.15,"text":"當然農損的部分還有房屋修繕的部分直接眼睛看見的是這個還有電線的修復通訊的修復這個都是另外這是大嶼下載很多山區更有很多原住民區所以我們對於交通道路跟原住民的區域的部分也做了一些相關的補助社福呢社福的部分呢是這個都包括在這裡"},{"start":29452.921,"end":29467.142,"text":"可是你的回答並不是那麼精準因為你說這是針對原住民不只如此 全民要照顧所以本席首先提問的就是說你這些項目是真的都是提供災後復原使用嗎"},{"start":29469.244,"end":29496.718,"text":"所以本席要來提問也就是說是不是有裡面包括了早應該做的治水啊排水啊你的水利工程還有也就是原本已經做了但是成效不佳的還有一些的項目也把它編入到再後重建如果真有如此將舊案包裝成為再後的工程那我們行政院也要給國務院說明清楚啊"},{"start":29498.088,"end":29517.217,"text":"很多是因為這次的強風降雨之後毀損的很多的道路很多的溪流他改道了這當然也符合我們這一次的特別條例所編的預算強修強險都要把他救回來無論過去做了多少他總是還有一些源頭末端的工程要做"},{"start":29517.717,"end":29543.945,"text":"所以源頭末端他並不是在這一次直接相關所以間接相關也好不管沒有相關也好本期是希望所有的預算都是人民的納稅錢我到各地去包括那個核心的整治我都說這個錢這邊的錢要放在眼前所看到核心的整治對於中長期的部分我們希望放到未來的四年一千億縣市管核酸改善工程裡面去"},{"start":29544.085,"end":29562.755,"text":"你還是沒針對本期的提問針對這600億是不是全數都用在災後復原那其中你的回答似乎有部分不是但是本強還是告訴你我們全力的支持我們的災民全力的支持復建但是錢必須要透明的給國人說明清楚接下來本期就要請教"},{"start":29565.776,"end":29585.965,"text":"接下來本校要請教電力跟交通它的運行我們要如何去強化因為在這一次的颱風當中將近有百萬戶受損停電甚至在嘉義也有11萬戶是長期長時間的停電非常的辛苦"},{"start":29586.565,"end":29609.244,"text":"那電線桿也數千支導斷在這樣的情況之下本期兩個議題給你請教第一個高鐵是國家非常重大的一個交通命脈在這一次的這個颱風就癱瘓了那未來我們要怎麼樣能夠防止不再這樣的事件發生這是第一個第二個本期要請教"},{"start":29609.804,"end":29627.461,"text":"在這樣的時間 在這樣的情況之下我們的電力在發生導斷這麼三千多支的電線卡那麼這麼百萬戶的來停電當時我們到底有沒有災前的一個安全檢測"},{"start":29629.222,"end":29650.729,"text":"這都是非常重要我們不要等到發生的事情我們支持的編列了110億來作為交通跟電力的一個災禍的整治復原這我們都願意但是我仍舊希望我們事先還是要做好功課請教針對高鐵針對我們這些電線塔導斷的這些問題請院長說明清楚高鐵當然是我們要維護整個電網的韌性供電的正常"},{"start":29658.371,"end":29672.629,"text":"所以在電網韌性方面我們除了現在搶修搶險之外我們已經請台電全國性的地下電網的一個評估希望能夠在未來展開那至於說全國性的地下電網展開"},{"start":29675.009,"end":29702.817,"text":"地下電網的評估地下電網評估展開評估因為這個不是一天兩天的事情有沒有預計什麼時候會出來呢他現在有對明年有初步的一個期程明年會初步出來全國地下電網沒有 初步期程說哪些優先地方可以先做那還要有充裕的經費才能做那關於電塔倒下來的時候這個很多是電線桿本身被風追倒也有一些是路數 行道數把電線桿給弄倒了"},{"start":29703.937,"end":29724.892,"text":"所以這個加強要中央台電跟地方政府都要合力在風災之前 颱風來之前要整修整個電線跟行道對 院長你講的這個終於我們兩個意見是一樣的你必須將這次慘痛的教訓我們要怎麼樣去做檢測這非常的重要"},{"start":29726.203,"end":29736.393,"text":"跟水溝一樣啊台風要來你趕快去清水溝清了它不會堵住不會回堵不會淹水這是各縣市政府都在做的縣市政府也要負起這樣的效率"},{"start":29737.453,"end":29759.286,"text":"對 所以我們在台電的這個部分你導斷了數千支那我們未來要怎麼做我們看的是第一個搶救第二個未來要怎麼做有建議 除了電網的地下之外就是這個電線桿的韌性能不能加強有沒有辦法設定說讓它不要一次次全排倒下區斷性的做一個比較強化的固定"},{"start":29760.026,"end":29767.164,"text":"本席聽到您有要開始地下整個電網的一個評估我也希望將評估報告給本席那針對於這個高鐵"},{"start":29771.353,"end":29799.635,"text":"報告委員高鐵其實它的韌性相對於其他的運具來說是比較強的不過已經發生事情了你還說比較強報告委員您說的這是單一事件這一次的事件是這個樣子它不是因為風力太強它是因為有一個物品因為風吹過來去打到它的電線上面所以它必須要停止那我們在很短的時間裡面把障礙物清除完之後就又復始了那天的狀況是這個樣子"},{"start":29801.196,"end":29825.992,"text":"交通尤其高鐵是非常重要台灣非常重要的一個交通系統所以您不管任何的原因應該我們要誠懇的去檢討怎麼樣讓它不再發生讓民眾可以安心這是本席的要求接下來本席要跟院長討論救命錢不能等農損的補助我們知道"},{"start":29827.032,"end":29855.166,"text":"農民非常的辛苦台灣以農立國這非常的重要所以因此在農損的方面我們要怎麼樣迅速快速協助我們的農民非常重要你看到本席的旁邊上面我們七八月是英植玉米正在採收的時候當我們的農民真的採收的時候打開一看我真的真的真的大家不知所措整區都沒有辦法收成因為他的玉米需已經"},{"start":29857.086,"end":29879.659,"text":"這個臭蛋上面的玉米果發霉再剝開下面的玉米因為泡水的關係全部發芽兩三天就發芽全區都沒有了一年的收成就沒有了旁邊是什麼院長你看旁邊那個瓜上面瓜藤上面是什麼"},{"start":29881.108,"end":29903.128,"text":"旁邊的藤上面是什麼他種的黑黑的黑黑的那是什麼我告訴你 本期告訴你那是南瓜南瓜因為雷暴雨我們的土地都是水沒有辦法呼吸沒有辦法提供養分給我們的藤藤沒有辦法給果實所以小克子掉下來爛掉了有細菌"},{"start":29904.226,"end":29931.101,"text":"大顆的落在那個藤上面可是也因為雷暴雨一直沖所以它也裂國了在這種情況之下我們的農民苦不堪言所以我具體建議針對於農損我們必須要立即尤其簡化這個程序怎麼簡化我們有四方來查你已經全區九成九都已經沒有收成了"},{"start":29932.315,"end":29949.704,"text":"我當場要求不要在市區再去查了這樣子會讓我們浪費很多的時間我們必須在第一時間協助農民做什麼協助他們復耕把這些細菌趕快清除這是農民非常勇敢請教院長"},{"start":29950.956,"end":29979.534,"text":"怎麼辦 是不是應該要簡化程序在非常時期的時候 簡化程序讓我們的農民可以盡快的拿到現金救助第二個 協助他們盡快的復耕 請做說明好 部長是不是程序簡化到什麼程度我跟委員報告 現在我們在簡化的時候我們也一直請公所這邊 就是用農民只要拍的照片 照傳APP對 那現在很多公所他還是不願意認 他還要去現場"},{"start":29980.742,"end":29996.782,"text":"所以我們中央跟地方沒有合作啊我們農民苦不堪言啊第一個齁我連要護根我都有困難啊我們已經他們當初害怕的時候我們已經在天然災害救助辦法裡面我們一直在宣導而且一直在宣導沒有成效啊"},{"start":29998.359,"end":30024.636,"text":"所以一個結論我知道我們的農業部長他非常的專精那我拜託院長我用拜託的農民非常的辛苦血本無歸而且他還要去復耕連土地都細菌那麼多所以我拜託我們這一次要好好去盤點像我們的整個他的藤全部塌掉了 流掉了那我們要不要補助他"},{"start":30025.476,"end":30054.213,"text":"所以我要求第一個我們在先進救助的時候時間速度要快第二個協助復耕速度要快 簡化程序第三個就這一次的教訓我們實際上這麼樣的一個地球暖化這麼樣的一個雷暴雨在這樣子情況之下我們要怎麼樣重新去盤點怎麼協助我們的農民來讓他們可以繼續有這個勇氣繼續耕作下去這程序必須持續的簡化"},{"start":30054.893,"end":30067.913,"text":"最持續的講話地方政府配合的程度跟效率我們也希望能夠經由互相的溝通彼此提高好 加強宣傳跟溝通接下來本校要請教重新的進度務必要透明因為我們現在"},{"start":30070.538,"end":30088.497,"text":"政府有很多的特別預算我們分為三年這一次我們分為三年分為三年大家以往特別預算因為分年所以會有突突拉拉的這個情況院長我相信你也了解這個情況所以本席具體建議在這一次我們的預算你們所編列出來的是191億316億跟93億跨年度"},{"start":30093.101,"end":30114.19,"text":"我們全力的支持的時候我們希望這個預算必須要公開透明因為每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢你必須要花在刀口上本期具體來建議你必須定期公開我們的這個特別預算他的進度必須定期公開以及送立法院可以做得到嗎"},{"start":30115.1,"end":30132.936,"text":"我請各部位要匯集起來我們由政委來負責定期向國人說明請委員能夠支持所有的災民都會謝謝大院在這麼快的速度通過的特別條例我們一起加油要定期公開以及送立法院接下來本席要說因為極端氣候一個颱風一個豪雨"},{"start":30133.456,"end":30161.046,"text":"如果我們在基礎建設的韌性它是不足的那又是下一輪的一個災難產生我們不願意所以本期要建議院長你們應該從這一次的災害那麼這一次的重建能夠得到教訓也就是針對長期的防災氣候調適你必須要把它結合在一起而不是只有頭痛一頭腳痛一腳所以本期要請教你們的長遠防災規劃是什麼"},{"start":30164.873,"end":30191.19,"text":"最上位的概念總統府的氣候變遷委員會他會就氣候變遷所造成的影響來做成政策性的決定那之後我們就會強化現在的防災機制其實現在跟過去十年以來我們的中央應變中心的體制是比較完整因為實際上地球暖化的因應也讓我們很大的挑戰所以必須要如此的去結合去做長遠的規劃"},{"start":30192.651,"end":30218.684,"text":"最後一個議題本集跟你討論最近大家一直在討論特別預算本集上週也跟你討論過你跟地方的一般性補助款現在每一次跟你們討論到中央跟地方的分配額你們都一直在抹黑在野黨甚至財化法的修法你認為當時你說財化法的修法在還沒有修以前是最好的版本請教院長你現在仍舊認為是最好的版本嗎"},{"start":30219.665,"end":30234.027,"text":"請說明我認為當時那個版本是我們執行起來那現在你還認為是最好的版本嗎現在新的裁判法現在你認為到目前為止現在新的裁判法對一些非六都以外的地區是不公平的喔"},{"start":30234.778,"end":30260.037,"text":"你這麼說我要告訴你你們自己執政黨的委員郭國文委員你看他的臉書他說因為要藍白對抗所以禁止他們提案他們也想修也禁止行政院提案到底是真的假的有沒有這回事行政院有備妥相對應責方式有沒有禁止他們提案我們行政院對財化法有備妥方案交由黨團來跟協商但是那個時候"},{"start":30261.63,"end":30267.734,"text":"所以財務法是必須要檢討嗎我們一直認為財務法可以檢討台中市一年給了兩千多億給我們六七百億我們拿回應當的一個公平補助這是合理的 而且是公正的就你那句話 可以檢討的"},{"start":30288.356,"end":30303.962,"text":"好謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長相關部會首長備詢謝謝好接下來我們請林義軍委員質詢王玉明委員請準備"},{"start":30320.164,"end":30324.387,"text":"謝謝主席 有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢議員好"},{"start":30336.323,"end":30351.428,"text":"院長好 首先我想先請教院長就是跟本席來自花東地區有關的問題請問這次災後復原重建特別預算的分配是否有充分的考量不同縣市的災損的程度還有有沒有哪一些客觀的標準"},{"start":30352.928,"end":30370.294,"text":"畢竟這次風災除了沿海地區最嚴重的就是山區原住民的整個部落了所以如何確保偏鄉還有弱勢的這些族群譬如我們花東這個整個地區還有山區的原鄉的部落的重建如何不被忽視呢"},{"start":30372.898,"end":30384.527,"text":"委員的問題相當的長第一個災區的認定在條例裡面有提到我們會視它實際上自災的情況主管機關送到行政院來公告所謂災區就會適用"},{"start":30386.752,"end":30415.325,"text":"整個條例裡面相關的預算那所有災區所受到的這個傷害包括農損包括污損包括道路包括水利我們都把它列到今年這次個特別預算裡面來支應所以如果是災區裡面還沒有辦法 災區以外沒有辦法在這個特別條例可以去做處理的我們還有年度的預算農業部還有農損交通部還有其他的這個預算可以來支應"},{"start":30416.855,"end":30445.934,"text":"因為裡面就是說這次的災後的復原重建的特別預算裡面我有看到有一筆特別是針對我們花蓮辦理的萬榮鄉的馬太安西上游的艷澀湖的接測應變與土砂防治的經費有1.2億元的預算我們很怕那個艷澀湖會潰堤下來所以我們包括我們的夢漾顧問花了很多精神去研究認為它有沒有急迫性的危險即使他研究出來告訴我"},{"start":30446.955,"end":30464.382,"text":"除非下很大很大的雨並沒有急迫性的危險我們還是編的預算不要讓他造成現在根據農業部的整個跨部會的專家有諮詢的會議有去評估目前針對這一個他有可能會相當就是說他這樣的話一整座的藍化水庫的蓄水量的驗射壺的問題似乎"},{"start":30465.663,"end":30489.579,"text":"好像開出來的會議的時候是束手無策只能採取以強化監測警戒下游的防檢災的措施是現在是這樣的作為主要的應變策略沒有錯 能不能說明一下因為我嘗試想過其他的方式甚至很大的方式但是很不敢去做大量嘗試中我跟委員報告針對馬太安的部分我們上個禮拜開了一次會然後我們也正式成立一個應變小組跨部會的應變小組"},{"start":30490.66,"end":30511.31,"text":"然後專家在看這個議題的時候相對的現在離溢流口大概還有30公尺左右那未來因為它的壩底比較深比較寬到1.7公里所以它未來如果說滿庫了以後它是溢流的方式不會直接潰堤的第一個說明第二個說明就是現在的上面的土非常軟"},{"start":30512.33,"end":30541.296,"text":"所以任何的機械都沒有辦法上去所以我們必須要等到它的土面 罷面的時候可以承載一些機械的時候才會去處理說是不是有第二個方案把這些溢流口逐步的往下降所以我們持續的會去觀測跟監測現在的水位然後如果說土堤比較硬的時候我們就會開始看看有沒有其他的工程方法可以來解決類似導引道之類的或其他的方式"},{"start":30541.874,"end":30565.529,"text":"但是如果聽這樣講的話其實院長你知道現在其實馬太安溪下游有分布在鳳林鎮還有光復鄉還有萬榮鄉這樣整個至少有七個村如果像遇到如果災情突然發生了這樣要立即的預防性的整個撤離的話像8月14號解除警戒讓民眾返家但是到現在真的其實這樣也沒有解決問題啦"},{"start":30566.75,"end":30589.047,"text":"而且其實我們花蓮的鄉親都是非常的遊行的一旦這整個發生了潰堤的時候造成大規模的土石流會衝擊到下游的鄉鎮造成嚴重的人命還有財產上面的損失這樣的話其實我看這個監測狀況如何還有有關的進度和解決方式剛才這樣的回答我覺得還是沒有解決這樣整個的問題而且還是"},{"start":30592.069,"end":30615.347,"text":"滿危險的我是希望說不要把我們花蓮看作次等的公民因為我們的居住也是安全的這是人跟大自然的一個作戰那剛剛部長說了我們現在強力監測等到它上面這個地形能夠有所改善我們能夠嘗試其他方式的時候我們可以不排除嘗試其他的方式各種方式來讓它不具備危險"},{"start":30616.768,"end":30639.062,"text":"縱然有一天下大雨很大的好雨又來它有急迫性的危險的時候我們會提前的希望下面的居民能夠撤離疏散這個也是必要做的那我們盡量在它可以處理的時候我們把它上游這個地形完整的時候能夠讓它有一個處理的方式這個我們是持續在關心當中從大雨來之後都是這樣子的"},{"start":30639.721,"end":30648.027,"text":"那有沒有評估過說必須要強制遷村才安全呢還是說未來有沒有預定說要怎麼安置還是有遷村的整個計畫呢"},{"start":30649.675,"end":30679.081,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是除了在霸頂的監測我剛才說的等土堤比較硬機械可以上去的時候我們會嘗試去做一些工程方面的作為然後現在可以做的我們在下游的地區也會讓相關的這些河道能夠類似疏進的方式讓它未來能夠成長更多的水量而不會影響到附近的這些村莊現在是目前可以做的我再次強調你有沒有想過如果一瞬間突然下了很大的大雨呢"},{"start":30679.434,"end":30693.35,"text":"不會 因為它的壩底它不是一般的壩它的壩底有1.7公里所以它會溢流但是它不會瞬間潰堤這個是一個非常重要的所以我們會隨時監控的理由就在這裡"},{"start":30695.197,"end":30713.653,"text":"希望可以快點找出整個解決的方式讓他們的居住都能夠非常安全我們也成立跨部會的部分這次這樣我們真的是非常擔憂的我們甚至請國防部在開會的時候也提供他們很多工兵方面的一個具體的經驗跟他後續可能會協助的我們都有在做這方面的事情"},{"start":30715.151,"end":30730.348,"text":"那我再次強調說這次行政院其實編列了幫助災民的災後重建的特別這個整個預算其實都是我們是很支持但是身為立委當然我們要監督政府的整個預算的責任當然最擔心的就是"},{"start":30730.788,"end":30754.482,"text":"就是怕說這些特別預算會不會變成執政黨的趁機打劫的軌跡這樣因為我們不太希望說政府能帶頭當國家級的詐騙集團如果是說趁機藉由這個風災的整個特別預算將原本要補助台電被刪減的千億的整個預算拐個彎或者過個水假救災之民然後將原本就不屬於這個風災災後的重建"},{"start":30757.003,"end":30779.351,"text":"計劃的這個整個混入到整個特別預算中補回來所以當然也不希望政府想說利用這一次的救災的整個預算完全的政治考量企圖可能或許會騙取一些補助還是給特定的候選人的選區綁裝甚至圖立特定的光電業者的損失和清理風災受損的光電板的"},{"start":30779.891,"end":30800.527,"text":"處理整個費用我只想說先請教院長風災受損光電板的處理費用這個是政府買單嗎還是業者自行負責還有這些廢棄的光電板未來會放在哪裡還有如何處理還有造成會不會造成農業上面環境的污染這樣整個處理的時間是大約是多久"},{"start":30801.877,"end":30821.186,"text":"委員你這樣子一個沒有對象沒有標的一個假設實在無助於整個救災光電板那是屬於業者的財產他們要自己處理不處理我們是加重處罰請部長來說明對 包委員那個光電板它目前現在一個在回收當中它的回收到最後的末端的回收大概92%到99%"},{"start":30823.107,"end":30835.865,"text":"所以全部回收掉並不是說丟到農地去那個農地是他們借用的我們有告訴他你不能現場破碎所以已經重罰了所以他目前的那家業者已經被我們罰了九百萬他們的計畫書他們預計他們剛剛給我們的是九月五號前"},{"start":30838.749,"end":30855.547,"text":"他們承諾會清完但是它黃流很多次了所以我們會持續的給它壓力我們也希望未來像這個光電的因為這次屬於很特殊的一個極端的風災我們也希望未來能夠進行所有大型光電板的場域的總體檢這個也是我們努力的方向"},{"start":30856.007,"end":30871.316,"text":"所以到現在就是政府沒有買單只是說未來政府會不會買單絕對不會我跟委員保證跟全國人民保證這個政府絕對不會買單而且這個是他自己的財產他自己的付錢他的光臉板是他自己出的所以他基本上最後的處理他也要自己去買單謝謝"},{"start":30874.448,"end":30898.738,"text":"那再請問院長有關過去的治水和防災的預算上面的編列的問題因應全球的氣候的異常風災雨災受災的情況程度其實都是比以前是更強烈的所以平常的公務預算還有前瞻建設的特別預算中政府就有編了防災和救災的預算然後過去就是光是為了加速執行易淹水的地區過去就編列了有"},{"start":30899.218,"end":30928.718,"text":"易淹水地區的水患治理計畫8年有1160億的預算還有流域綜合治理特別預算編列了6年有660億的防災治水的計畫那農業部從98年起為了分期推動整體性的計畫所以光是一個農業部這16年來就已經累積投入了將近408億的預算這還沒有包含其他部會的編列的公務預算"},{"start":30929.358,"end":30949.081,"text":"然後經濟部水利署為了辦理水災智慧防災的計畫是109年到113年也編列了總預算高達30億的預算那還有近年來政府當然也編列了推動智慧防災相關計畫大約這樣也超過了百億"},{"start":30950.242,"end":30975.423,"text":"那為什麼每次執政的團隊都是要等到災難發生之後我們會臨時編了這一個特別的預算去亡羊補牢呢因為剛剛本席有舉例那些預算這些預算的話當初編列這些的時候難道都是去打水漂了嗎還是因為是治水無效呢這是否證明了行政院平常防災計劃能力的不足還是趁火打劫國庫呢那院長可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":30977.312,"end":30991.725,"text":"等一下請部長說我說委員還是有地方淹水還是有很多地方淹水但是您如果到各地去看看有更多的地方淹水的情況比過去少很多退水的時間比過去快很多這都是事實"},{"start":30992.385,"end":31018.207,"text":"不能完全抹煞過去一二十年來所有治水工程的所有人員的努力我們編列的預算有產生它的效果那現在我們看到是源頭末端抽水機等等還有一些問題要處理明年開始我們針對縣市管核酸要加強整治這個是我們一步一步的來做我不敢保證沒有淹水但是我說的就是要最小淹水面積最快退水時間最高安全標準"},{"start":31018.607,"end":31033.828,"text":"那請部長來說我跟委員補充說明一下如果說我們看那個天然災害的部分從十年前到現在現在天然災害有個非常大的特點就是它的極端天候裡面的急降雨所謂急降雨就是短時間所下的雨量"},{"start":31034.889,"end":31063.649,"text":"這個鋁量往往會超過當地的這些相關的排水的相關的承載量所以每一年以農業部來講每一年我們大概編了120億是在做這些治山防洪的相關的工作這個工作做的不是說沒有用因為台灣的很多這種所謂土石流潛勢區跟大規模崩塌區我們都有在監控監控的過程中有時候當它攤方的時候我們會及時的去處理"},{"start":31064.57,"end":31065.915,"text":"那這個部分都是用這樣的一個經費來處理"},{"start":31067.525,"end":31095.339,"text":"最主要我就是說那麼多年來都是有在治水然後也花了很多的預算的經費像我們來看一下在特別針對當初編列的前瞻基礎預算裡面的執行的情況像過去蔡英文執政時期編列前瞻基礎的預算的話總計有8400億其中治水工程有關的就有2000多億而且針對防洪剛才還有講的整治河川還有治洪池這些項目"},{"start":31095.839,"end":31118.44,"text":"其實南部都有提出水患的整個改善計畫有五個縣市提出來的工程就有高達1416億元了那我們地方政府預算這樣分配的情況來說明前三名竟然就是這次風災淹水最嚴重的三個縣市分別就是嘉義還有台南還有高雄"},{"start":31118.94,"end":31133.532,"text":"那院長這樣是不是很諷刺因為這三個地方政府拿了中央最多的補助的經費然後一個颱風來就完全整個破功了而且監察院7月公佈調查中也指出台南市政府109年到111年"},{"start":31136.094,"end":31154.509,"text":"獲得中央補助雨水下水道的輕於工程款好像有遭到非法的挪用沒有專款專用這樣那院長請問一下行政院說有沒有好好的去了解這件事情還有這項特別預算是不是都會被地方政府挪用甚至拿去不當的使用呢"},{"start":31155.289,"end":31171.984,"text":"這是一個百年來難見的風災但那是颱風從台灣的南部台灣海峽直上從嘉義布袋入口這是百年來難見的颱風如果你有到地方去你有在現場看到下雨的情形那雨水用倒的你就會知道"},{"start":31172.644,"end":31193.445,"text":"這不是任何的防洪工程在當初所設計施工但是我們那麼多年的治水上面的預算這些錢等於沒有用嘛我只能說如果沒有那些預算那可能大家的痛苦會更痛苦那我們現在希望把那些當基礎我們往上堆疊把該做的事情把它徹底的完成但是就算完成"},{"start":31194.346,"end":31220.954,"text":"也沒有任何人保證台灣是一個永遠不會淹水的地方因為極端氣候就是如此讓我們體諒所有的救災人員的辛苦我們更感受災民的辛苦政府該做的必須要做給多一點的鼓勵比用這樣的方式打擊這些士氣要好很多我真的懇請委員不要用這種方式認為過去做的都沒有效這是非常非常不適當的一個比喻我可以請經濟部來講講水利署的股東"},{"start":31222.291,"end":31239.885,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們過去的治水其實跟地方 地方跟中央是要一起把這個地方管的核酸跟中央管的核酸一起把它從整個系統性的治水的觀點來看尤其現在整個極端氣候的環境"},{"start":31265.507,"end":31275.856,"text":"好 謝謝林益君委員的質詢謝謝左院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請王育民委員質詢何新淳委員請準備"},{"start":31283.045,"end":31299.083,"text":"謝謝主席我們是有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢王委員好"},{"start":31299.71,"end":31319.132,"text":"院長好 院長剛剛你的報告裡面提到說你要替災民謝謝立法院所以我想在整個重建過程當中災民應該是最先被關照跟幫助的對象但是我們攤開來看這次的整個特別預算的編列"},{"start":31320.153,"end":31335.527,"text":"立法院多給了行政院從560億變成600億就是希望可以給災民更多的照顧但是我們攤開來看現在對於這些弱勢戶重建家園的預算總共只佔了21億"},{"start":31338.629,"end":31363.506,"text":"這21億其實佔了整體預算只有3.5%你認為這樣子真的有照顧到災民了嗎在目前為止其實本席看到的是之前在朝野協商我也多次提醒現在行政院願意幫忙去修復這個屋頂整個毀壞的是願意幫助中低收入戶"},{"start":31364.787,"end":31385.438,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下 事實上我來自嘉義 嘉義是我的故鄉嘉義縣老年人口非常的多然後我親自去看有很多的這些老宅裡面住的都是超過65歲 有的是70、80歲的老人"},{"start":31386.098,"end":31404.384,"text":"它不見得有中低收入戶的資格但那個是它僅存安身立命的房子它破了它漏水它屋頂飛走了但是它並不在這一次你們全額補助的範圍真的是非常的辛苦那朝野協商其實我也提出來過"},{"start":31406.205,"end":31429.683,"text":"但是你們並沒有採那就是進一步再去更擴大補助我想問為什麼因為以全部的預算來看的話事實上這個是重中之重所有包括全國人民我相信他們看到那個畫面他們想要幫助的就是這一些每一個受災戶的災民是優先最想幫助的對象結果在你們的整體預算裡面它只佔了3.5%"},{"start":31431.904,"end":31454.764,"text":"為什麼是這樣的一個編列若市戶本來就相對一般戶就比較少一般申請了三四萬戶那若市戶大概一千戶以內所以他本來就比較少所有的若市戶不管拆或修繕全部由政府負擔這個部分我沒有問題有擴大就低收跟中低收之外"},{"start":31457.085,"end":31482.19,"text":"特殊禁域還有脆弱家庭經社工評估有劣測這樣有多少呢以台南來講是大概500左右所以你看看它在你整體的比例還是很低啊我要講的是像嘉義縣它是全國老人第一比例的地方我當時在超級協商有建議像這種家裡面住的都是老人"},{"start":31483.01,"end":31507.581,"text":"照道理政府也應該要提供幫忙但是你們現在我只能說你們現在還是採取一個不是從寬的標準是從嚴的標準很限縮的標準但是我只能講我們現在台灣對於中低收入戶的認定是非常嚴格的我們真的可以納入法定貧窮人口數只有2.5%我們跟其他國家比較起來跟鄰近的日韓他們大概有10%我們只有2.5%"},{"start":31509.542,"end":31535.081,"text":"所以你若完全採取中低收入戶的標準我只能告訴院長跟這個政委有很多他是邊緣的競品他實際的狀況經濟狀況就是不好完全被你們排除你的公懷戶不是從經濟的標準那是特殊境遇可能有一些他的需求但是跟這個競品還是不一樣競品跟獨居老人就收入比較少獨居老人"},{"start":31536.103,"end":31541.223,"text":"這幾類的以貪人來講那似乎他會全額去補助修繕那嘉義縣呢"},{"start":31541.738,"end":31569.387,"text":"那嘉義縣當然嘉義縣政府如果可以編列的話去修繕嘉義縣那麼窮他怎麼有辦法去編列如果你中央不提供補助他怎麼有辦法在這邊我要幫因為那一部分比例很少我們就講災損不是所有的弱勢戶就是說房屋破損的比方說嘉義縣大概申請的有五千嘛那其中弱勢是一定比例那通常這個都已經包含在內不會說單獨把它排除在外"},{"start":31570.213,"end":31585.279,"text":"我知道但是你補助的不夠嘛所謂的從寬的原則你知道修一個屋頂要多少嗎30萬起跳吧那你現在最高的補助額度到多少你知道嗎只有10萬如果給政府來修算是完全免費"},{"start":31585.819,"end":31611.186,"text":"你政府修繕範圍就只有中低收入啊包括還有特殊經濟一般民眾你有受理嗎一般民眾是要媒介一般民眾你只是媒合啊你沒有補助嘛有補助就是復原十萬跟五萬啊看他的房屋破損程度所以只有十萬嘛我現在要告訴兩位就是以你們現在劃定的這樣一個標準跟補助的範圍對於災民來講是不夠的"},{"start":31614.247,"end":31635.728,"text":"所謂你們的從寬沒有從寬今天立法院給你們這麼多的預算我覺得要分輕重緩急優先順序我個人認為不是所有你們應該還要再擴大我剛才提醒你了中低收入戶我們的標準是非常的嚴格的那所以你今天我看到你的預備金還有30億"},{"start":31638.07,"end":31664.919,"text":"在這個預備金裡面你應該同時告訴這次最慘的就是嘉義縣跟台南市所以你應該讓兩個地方政府給他們一定的金額讓他們去看實際的狀況有需求的民眾還補不夠的應該要給他們這樣的彈性你這樣才是真正照顧到災民如果你今天沒有這樣子做我覺得就是為德不足我們今天所有立法院的好意還提高了金額但是在災民的眼中在他們身上"},{"start":31665.379,"end":31687.677,"text":"其實拿到的補助是不夠的我希望這個部分你們是不是有這個空間可以再去檢討因為你還有預備金 院長可以嗎這就是保持這個整個運用的彈性是 自災地區如果當我們的整個的補助的方法還沒有辦法完全涵蓋或是有更特殊的狀況的時候這個我們就充分運用但是我們放心絕對沒有地域之分"},{"start":31688.217,"end":31706.59,"text":"沒有縣市之分我們一定是依照自災情形需要來我希望就真正受災的災民他可以得到充分的協助這個才是我們立法院這麼快速的通過條例而且提高金額最大的用意第二個重塑的原則我現在看到事實上在核發的建樹受理的建樹"},{"start":31707.591,"end":31725.276,"text":"它的這個落差還蠻大的這當中特別是像嘉義縣它現在受理的件數有9000件核發只有500多件這個是統計到8月20號為止我想問兩位的是現在最大的困難是什麼這麼的緩慢現在已經過了50天了"},{"start":31727.575,"end":31746.603,"text":"報告委員行政院的20億加一市1億加一縣8億台南市10億在7月25號錢都已經撥下去了到現在已經一個月了那加一縣的這個部分是受災的各鄉鎮公所在辦理行政院全在一個月前都已經撥到地方政府了"},{"start":31747.264,"end":31763.187,"text":"這個不是中央政府在審查我知道那現在速度緩慢的原因是什麼我覺得中央應該要去督導或協助地方怎麼樣加快這個速度要問你們的好意你們說你撥下去但是在你手上覺得我沒有啊所以台南市政府他有派"},{"start":31764.148,"end":31778.239,"text":"檢任級的官員以及其他的同仁進駐到各區公所那我們也同樣要求嘉義縣政府他必須派相關人員進駐到各鄉鎮公所但是呢"},{"start":31780.18,"end":31805.309,"text":"嘉峪縣的各鄉鎮公所是民選的首長台南市的區公所是市長派的區長所以稍微有不同所以我們會去再跟那你們就要加強去輔導可以嗎我們再跟鄉鎮公所再討論因為這樣的一個效率恐怕我們的所有的好意災民都感受不到因為都沒有拿到這裡面還有一個原因就是說有時候報的這個面積很難認定所以承辦人員會特別謹慎"},{"start":31806.309,"end":31821.291,"text":"那麼他會受理之後一件一件去看所以這個都是重塑的原則就沒有落實嗎因為你們在立法院一直說我們要重寬重塑重優但是看起來這個重塑的原則並沒有落實我希望你們可以好好去督促"},{"start":31821.872,"end":31846.926,"text":"另外一個 現在還有漏網之魚我給你看一個個案 這個是在嘉義縣這個業者他是專門在收購這個稻殼他重新再把它去製作之後 碳化這些稻殼然後他有一部分還提供給中鋼做煉鋼使用但他在這次的風災裡面 大家看這些畫面他那些稻殼原物料全部泡水"},{"start":31848.087,"end":31865.129,"text":"倉庫一片狼藉屋頂也破損損失現在出估超過三千萬那他收購的這些道殼占全國的百分之二十蠻大間的一個工廠但是到目前為止他跟我陳情中央或地方沒有一個人"},{"start":31866.33,"end":31884.578,"text":"他發生這麼大的事情沒有一個人去關心然後呢要跟誰申請補助我初步問了農業部農糧署他後來說不是他的他推給經濟部我現在就要問像這樣子的一個企業受災的企業還有多少然後因為他從事的是這一些"},{"start":31885.818,"end":31903.613,"text":"到可的這個收購本來以為是農業部結果農業部說不是他跟他無關那現在是經濟部嗎那像這一類的還沒有完全得到任何補助在你這一次的整個條例當中到底哪一個部會管然後可不可以接受補助可以補助到多少那這些工廠怎麼辦損失慘重怎麼辦"},{"start":31912.53,"end":31940.512,"text":"你們現在補助辦法是什麼可以補助多少現在經濟部也沒有去關心所以他們現在已經過了50天了經濟部對企業應該有一些協助經濟部提供什麼協助跟委員報告我們針對這個部分我們有編列一筆錢大概給企業補助20萬另外還有一個貸款的利息補貼的部分我想這個不足的部分我想企業可以做貸款來"},{"start":31941.332,"end":31957.447,"text":"像這樣的企業經濟部會受理在這次的條例裡面可以得到補助所以它是漏網之魚那還有沒有其他的漏網之魚你們現在透過什麼樣的管道去宣傳讓地方政府或讓這些受災的企業知道他們可以來申請經濟部有將這個機器涵蓋在裡面"},{"start":31960.53,"end":31978.481,"text":"20萬還有利息的補貼都有在但他們不知道所以你們的這個宣傳看起來也是很有問題我希望這個個案待會我們就轉給你們好好的去跟廠商了解他說到目前為止都沒有人在關心他像孤兒一樣我覺得這個部分我們不應該有600億的預售"},{"start":31979.561,"end":32004.456,"text":"還有漏網之魚就是沒有被幫助到接下來我要問的是在這次的風災當中我們也看到地方裡面有些鄉鎮公所它的避難收容處所非常非常的完全沒有辦法提供避難我們看到是役主鄉這次役主也是被重創的地方請院長看這個畫面它是一個大禮堂它叫中正堂"},{"start":32006.677,"end":32019.004,"text":"當時役主因為受災非常的嚴重有很多的宗教團體很熱心去進行了公益役主的這樣的一個活動他就在一個大禹清盆的一個大禮堂裡面"},{"start":32020.083,"end":32036.482,"text":"非常簡陋 非常克難的在煮熱時要提供給災民吃這個看了讓人家覺得非常的心酸這個是我們現在中華民國我們這麼經濟繁榮的今天結果在嘉義縣的一個異族鄉它連一個避難處所長這個樣子"},{"start":32038.638,"end":32056.1,"text":"然後新盆大雨的時候 裡面也在下大雨這樣我們怎麼去提高我們的防災韌性而這件事情呢 這個易竹鄉鄉長他有跟內政部部來求助 來懲刑但是現在都沒有下文"},{"start":32056.909,"end":32074.236,"text":"沒有具體告訴他可不可以在這一次的條例裡面我們再重建一個真的讓將來有下一次的這個風災或是災難的時候讓我們的災民可以安心避難的據所沒有答案 沒有下文"},{"start":32075.161,"end":32100.223,"text":"這個就是我們現在的災後重建公司這個是公共設施有包含在這次的特別條例裡面那如果他跟工程會提出我們會來審議所以到底要跟內政部提出還是要跟如果在特別預算裡面執行機關是內政部但最後審核主管機關是工程會所以他是跟內政部陳情內政部有沒有轉給這個工程會因為特別條例才成立嘛特別預算今天還在審議他已經陳情很久了"},{"start":32101.814,"end":32125.501,"text":"這筆預算今天還在審我知道啊 但是大家都知道特別條例之前大家都已經在審啦都知道要定啦我們會請工程會直接跟議主相問那你們也下去看啊 那一個議主相 鄉長就是跟中央官員的陳情然後都沒有下文 沒有回應我覺得這個不是做事情的態度跟方法這個內政部有他那個鄉長有跟內政部反應 部長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":32126.441,"end":32136.91,"text":"我們了解這個部分但是因為預算還沒有辦法下來所以沒有辦法跟公共工程委會一起來合作但是如果是公共設施的話當然站在我們的立場一定要來協助"},{"start":32137.355,"end":32165.495,"text":"那我就希望你們給異族鄉鄉長一個正式的回覆喔因為這一個他也當面跟我澄清過我覺得如果中央政府沒有去受理沒有去正視這真的有點太離譜了因為我們要保證我們每一個人民居住在台灣這片土地下一回遇到災難的時候他都有一個安心的避難的住所那個那麼破舊的一個地方完全是不合時宜喔所以今天政委在這邊是不是可以承諾可以重建一個"},{"start":32166.656,"end":32194.11,"text":"真的是可以遮風避雨安全穩固的地方給藝竹鄉的鄉民可以嗎我們就看他的受損的狀況他是整個真的很破舊了他會特別來審議再來協助好 那我希望你們就是要正式受理我想今天這個包括國民黨我們很快的提出特別條例而且很快的召開朝野協商院長也很快的就主持朝野協商大家只有一個共識我們要給這些受災的災民"},{"start":32194.79,"end":32204.057,"text":"就是真正的幫助我們要幫助他站起來我們要強化他的防災韌性可以抵擋下一次的風雨我希望這件事情已經給你們抽分"},{"start":32223.032,"end":32243.205,"text":"好 接下來我們請何欣淳委員請質詢許巧欣委員請準備好 謝謝院長那我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢等一下再請相關部會的首長請卓院長何委員好"},{"start":32251.172,"end":32274.463,"text":"院長辛苦了 還是加油我相信不分草野大家都希望台灣更好所以今天我們面對這個特別預算我們希望能夠第一個盡快通過第二個我們現在錢花在刀口上花在真正能夠讓人民有感的地方幫助更多的受災的民眾我想7月的 雖然今天"},{"start":32276.404,"end":32299.222,"text":"特別預算裡面大家談的幾乎都是南部地區但是我跟院長報告7月的相關的風災雨災在台中也是一個超級大好雨而且是創下70年來同期最多的雨量我想極端氣候大家都談很多但是如何能夠強化災防的韌性"},{"start":32299.482,"end":32319.115,"text":"以及讓我們所有的人民能夠安居樂業我想這個是我們政府責無旁貸大家要一起努力的那我在第一頁有一個步風五福社區我為什麼會特別請院長感受一下這個暗室這麼大 落到陰水所以人都睡不著 都要起來順大家都會歡樂"},{"start":32325.659,"end":32342.914,"text":"這個其實就是大多數遇到天災風災雨災大部分受災戶受災的人民他的第一時間的心情我想絕對是不美麗而且絕對是很脆弱絕對需要我們政府跟所有相關的單位能夠"},{"start":32343.735,"end":32370.791,"text":"跟他們同理站在第一線上能夠協助他們而且要快這也就是為什麼我們今天這個特別預算我剛剛一開始說我們希望能夠快速通過那其實不是只有霧峰五福在那7月底從28 29 30 31大台中大大小小的災情很多那淹水的情況也很多我另外在有一面有一個照片是在烏日的環河路"},{"start":32371.331,"end":32397.372,"text":"那個淹水這不僅僅是人行走困難那裡也是一個交通要道連汽車 機車都會掉車淹水的問題到底在哪裡其實我覺得第一個我要先謝謝院長因為院長在第一時間有說宣布只要是有淹水縣市政府認定超過50公分除了縣市政府既有的一個救助金之外我們行政院加碼兩萬對不對 院長"},{"start":32400.471,"end":32416.098,"text":"所以我在第一時間因為當時候院長說的這個加碼是針對南部縣市我怕院長忘了台中的淹水情況也很嚴重所以我第一時間也趕快提醒我們行政院那也謝謝院長跟我們經濟部"},{"start":32417.378,"end":32446.022,"text":"在第一時間就把台中只要有淹水的情形經過市政府的認定我們行政院也同樣加碼 對不對 院長是的我希望陳報上來的我們要趕快核定因為欠災民的錢不要拖啦 要趕啦 這第一個陳報的過程也請地方政府能夠把數據出來我們才能夠核算應該是這樣講 院長我們第一個要公開透明我們的效率"},{"start":32447.964,"end":32474.304,"text":"地方政府到底是多久的時間匯集資料多久的時間送到我們中央我們在同步的縣市政府在做補助的時候我們收到他呈報上來的資料我們如何在最快的速度能夠把加碼的救助金發放出去我覺得這是人民對政府的信任的第一步所以這個效率很重要接著我認為"},{"start":32475.905,"end":32502.503,"text":"除了給現金給救助金之外最重要的就是要解決問題嘛對不對所以我以物風武服為例我剛剛的第一張照片他半夜水淹上來了之後結果事後我們去調查原因他是我們的農水設施做得不夠好因為水閘門關不起來"},{"start":32506.325,"end":32518.565,"text":"他同時有灌溉溝渠那旁邊就是增淘就是住宅區結果因為旁邊的灌溉溝渠的水閘門現在是老舊的手動式的水閘門"},{"start":32520.367,"end":32544.513,"text":"因為老舊卡住關不起來所以造成整個增淘陰水我覺得這個就是事後檢討我們發現的問題就是要解決問題所以我當下在會館的時候我第一個要求要檢討現行的SOP什麼SOP原來我們農業部的農水署要求各水利單位"},{"start":32545.073,"end":32560.255,"text":"只有在地方政府宣布開設這個一級二級的災防應變中心之後他們才會跟著啟動SOP來應變結果那一天淹大水的時候台中市政府還沒有宣布"},{"start":32563.078,"end":32585.095,"text":"這個災變中心而且當時候台中市長人在國外沒人主持大局所以一拖就拖過了所以沒有人發現這個問題結果我們農水署的相關同仁們就被動的等著地方政府來宣布有沒有成立應變中心就錯過了黃金時間所以第一個我要求要檢討現行的SOP"},{"start":32586.676,"end":32608.716,"text":"不一定要等只要是發生問題了我覺得就應該要及時的因應所以院長是你同意吧部長也在這裡請農水署還有水利署以後這個事情我們提早如何能夠是 這個農水署跟水利單位也有關係我跟委員報告一下我們現在在修正的還有在調整的作為就是"},{"start":32609.676,"end":32636.722,"text":"在颱風任何的可能的雨害來之前就要巡一次至少那個關的部分是沒有問題的然後後續什麼時候關才會搭配著後面的這些災防的這些層級但是一定會有人他的最主要問題是沒有辦法關沒有辦法關開所以要事前的去巡視他是不是正常這才是重點所以這個部分我已經要求農水組這邊包括他們的水利小組都要再去查一次"},{"start":32637.522,"end":32666.176,"text":"我會建議院長也在這裡我們今天要通過特別預算應該要好好的盤點因為我們現在有很多的農水利設施是比較老舊的相對的我們現在數位科技化的現在我們可以升級就要利用我們現在的特別預算好好盤點該升級就要升級該增設抽水設施就應該增設抽水設施這也就是部長你剛剛講的我們當然在事前要先去巡查"},{"start":32666.716,"end":32694.512,"text":"那巡查之後盤點了之後我們該改善就要改善該有特別預算來支應我希望大家要趕快的事先的提出我相信院長一定會支持的嘛比如說我們現在都說智慧水閘門還有遠端的監控系統如果在這個淹水地區的一個關鍵的這個區域的話我們是不是可以來盤點跟檢討來做這個重建復建跟改進院長這不難吧"},{"start":32696.053,"end":32713.726,"text":"是 我們每次到應變中心都要求抽水機要夠 抽水站要能用人車物料要充足那這一個預算裡面我們也編列了大型移動性的抽水機有一億元另外有防水板的相關經費都會落實在這一次預算當中的結構裡面"},{"start":32714.426,"end":32743.644,"text":"所以我希望部長那院長剛剛有指示我覺得這個是好事也是應該要做的事對人民生活影響很重要的事那我覺得應該要做接著除了淹水的地區我們要發救助金我們要解決問題我們台中有大片的山坡地山坡地的水保是最重要的我在第一時間跑了霧峰北屯還有太平"},{"start":32744.745,"end":32745.231,"text":"你會看到"},{"start":32747.881,"end":32775.482,"text":"山邊的農民的土石流就進了他的房子然後呢 整個道路是中斷的完全不能通行 整個都東山 朝山 路回去我們在那幾天 台中的大好雨包括霧峰 新社 潭子 豐原 東勢 北屯 太平等地區土石災害 農路攤方目前在所謂的75件是地方政府報上來的我相信不止"},{"start":32776.002,"end":32802.979,"text":"那我也希望在這一次的特別預算裡面我們行政院不管是經濟部跟農業部能夠大力的支持協助地方政府來重建不管是農路也好水土保持工程也好或者是相關的道路橋樑這個院長這本來就是我們應該做的對不對是所以我們需要特別預算接著我來給你看一個數字院長"},{"start":32804.175,"end":32818.555,"text":"台中是一個六都的都會區大家會想說怎麼農產的災損我們是最多其實台中的物產風老農業地區也很多我們的農作物相對的也非常多元這個"},{"start":32821.419,"end":32836.417,"text":"計算表格是我們的行政單位給我的就是07287月底的那幾天的豪雨造成了農業的災損損失的金額統計表我看一下第一名叫屏東縣第二名就叫台中市"},{"start":32838.374,"end":32861.074,"text":"所以我也希望扶植農民讓農產業能夠復甦摘損能夠得到政府的協助補助讓我們的農民生活可以早日恢復正常而且他才有能力能量在下一次面對下一個年頭的農作或者是下一次的災害我相信災害"},{"start":32862.635,"end":32890.098,"text":"希望在政府的協助之下不要再多了農民是看天吃飯但是我們希望老天爺能夠天佑台灣希望我們的政府要做的是什麼在這樣的極端氣候之下災防韌性還有相關的災防建設我們能夠做得到位跟農民一起來抵抗垮梯吃飯這事宜院長這是我們要跟農民站在一起的好不好"},{"start":32890.698,"end":32917.265,"text":"所以在這個六度裡面台中的農產損失是超過一億也許你會說超過一億對一個直轄市來說看起來不多但是像我剛剛講從淹水到水土保持到農路到農民的災損我想方方面面還有很多其實不只這一億其實不只是這些錢更多的是需要我們政府長期的支持院長對不對"},{"start":32918.789,"end":32936.632,"text":"我們就是不管是從產業從農業這個各方面我們除了原來的計畫之外不夠的部分我們就是用這樣的方式來把它補充那未來包括治水我們還有更多的四年的計畫要做長期支持對政府來講我們就是把政策延續下去"},{"start":32938.083,"end":32953.671,"text":"對不起 院長你剛剛有回答其他委員因為有其他委員在指引過去我們的治水計畫還有治水預算花了那麼多好像沒什麼成效可是院長事實上我們從長遠的角度來看的話跟專業的角度來看的話是有效的"},{"start":32954.151,"end":32977.777,"text":"是有效的只是我們的極端氣候真的變化的太超乎我們人類所及應該是這樣子講那它變化的速度太快所以造成我們這個治水的一個功效好像讓人覺得打了折扣可是以我在我的選區台中市來看台中市在過去這幾年我們中央支持之下"},{"start":32978.277,"end":32992.71,"text":"整治了很多的河川還有下水道系統我也爭取在行政院的支持之下也建置了很多所以相對的我們過去易淹水的地區像剛剛院長回答的面積越來越縮小"},{"start":32993.351,"end":33018.442,"text":"那退水的這個時間越來越縮短但是我們仍然希望好還要更好所以剛剛院長講到一句話長期的預算的支持治水不管是在農業或者經濟部或者是內政部相關各部會只要是對地方治水有功效的我們都應該要全力的來支持所以我在最後的結語"},{"start":33019.923,"end":33023.458,"text":"會再問一下 我們這個特別預算我要問一下 這個院長"},{"start":33025.026,"end":33051.505,"text":"因為在第二條裡面有講這個台中市雖然有在我們的這個立法說明裡面是一個災區但是範圍是由行政院公告那我剛剛聽到我們這一次特別預算的組織單位叫做公共工程委員會所以呢我們的這個災區的一個範圍公告是行政院公共工程委員會來勘查之後來認定公告院長對不對那請問依照實際的自災情形"},{"start":33055.369,"end":33069.085,"text":"請問我們這個特別預算通過之後何時公告很快就會依照實際自災情形來公告但大部分的區域都很清楚了如果還有一些不是整個"},{"start":33070.455,"end":33084.853,"text":"整個直轄市可能某些區域裡面特別嚴重事態情形工程會就處理這次在特別條例的協調當中就是院長在組織協調當中有附帶決議已經包括台中了"},{"start":33085.934,"end":33101.96,"text":"台中全市各縣市政府他必須有一個申報我們昨天才開會討論關於災區的審查的標準所以將來會設到工程會然後會召開會議"},{"start":33104.301,"end":33126.901,"text":"所以主委因為你剛剛講的這些要召開會議然後審查標準要制定那這些都需要時間那我只希望說能夠要快要有效率因為我想特別預算草野都支持我們應該會最快的速度來通過因為那個標準並沒有設定的很嚴格沒有設定的很嚴格但是還是要你們審認對不對"},{"start":33129.063,"end":33155.163,"text":"那審任跟公告我希望能夠用最快的時間最有效率的方式趕快好不好主委 這個院長也有答應那我剛剛也跟院長提到有很多的事情是要長期的我們今天特別預算通過了雖然是針對的這些風災雨災這個天災但是我知道現在我們政府手上四大預算案就是要顧民生 要拚經濟所以拜託院長我們一起加油"},{"start":33157.042,"end":33181.497,"text":"好謝謝何新淳委員質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會首長備詢謝謝好報告委員會今天我們登記最後一位發言的委員11號徐巧欣委員請質詢謝謝院長我們有請卓院長還有這個環境部長麻煩再請卓院長環境部備詢"},{"start":33197.239,"end":33216.973,"text":"許多人好在丹納斯颱風之後許多人相當關心也很擔心就是關於廢棄的光電板網路上最多人在傳的就是光電板流出所謂的洪水的問題當然彭部長的說法我已經聽過了"},{"start":33218.234,"end":33232.305,"text":"但是呢按照法規來說這個光電板要在水泥地或者是不透水的地方來砌製那為什麼會放在這個台這個台這個農地台塘的農地那可以這樣子站製嗎"},{"start":33233.479,"end":33246.285,"text":"報告委員不行的所以他在我們發現了之後我們有要求他而且他這個就被我們罰了第二張200萬第二張 第一張多少錢第一張100 第二張200現在已經到300了"},{"start":33249.126,"end":33268.334,"text":"那請問這個紅色的水現在處理的狀況已經全部處置完成了嗎因為我後來8月16號我有到縣地去看我們其實在8月十幾號的時候我們同仁就有去現場採樣那個紅色的水它基本上沒有任何的重金屬也沒有任何的油"},{"start":33269.454,"end":33294.273,"text":"這個我清楚這個報導您都講過講過的我都會看我要問的是說到目前為止這些紅色的水已經處理完畢了嗎因為我剛剛沒有問說它裡面有沒有什麼樣的重金屬我談的是它本來就不應該在不透水的地方去做氣質你也說已經罰了三百萬了所以我的問題非常的清楚是請問這些紅水已經處置完畢了沒有"},{"start":33295.054,"end":33313.061,"text":"我到現場去看過已經那個光電板或是那個浮桶已經沒有在那個地方我問的是紅色的水還在不在啊都不在了 早就不在了那什麼時候環境部可以在這個地方拍一張照片讓給所有的民眾知道同樣一個地方紅色的水已經沒有了今天能夠做到嗎"},{"start":33314.301,"end":33331.631,"text":"其實我在現場我有拍我在旁邊的照片但是我覺得我去採訪我並不想要讓大家為什麼不想讓大家知道我們已經澄清了你知道你們今天在抓那個什麼AI小鳥的這個影片我並不反對因為我自己也有收到我看了之後我就說這個應該是AI的影片但是"},{"start":33332.071,"end":33360.658,"text":"就是因為你們在處理完看處理完畢之後並沒有跟大眾說非常清楚的說明就是比較先前的狀況後來的狀況以及你們中間裁罰了幾次所以民眾才會擔心所以我要問的是因為這個事情已經討論非常久了今天能不能做一個比較圖就是先前紅色水的狀況跟現在今天的情況兩者去做比較 能不能好 我請我同仁來調照片看看"},{"start":33361.558,"end":33380.811,"text":"我希望今天可以做完因為這真的很久了你看這個新聞是什麼時候8月7號現在8月底因為我也遭遇到這種錯誤訊息跟假消息到處散佈我們也很困擾所以我今天提醒你我是站在你的角度來替大家做這個說明因為我也不想再收到這些假的訊息了"},{"start":33381.351,"end":33408.407,"text":"所以如果你今天就能夠做出比較其實你們早就該做了你不是說你去看已經沒問題沒問題的那一天就要告知大眾我是繼續問有關光電板的處理情形從廢棄物因為丹納斯颱風的關係單月增積到2800噸你所說的是一個月能夠處理2900噸我請問丹納斯颱風到現在已經兩個多月了目前完成多少噸的清潤"},{"start":33409.668,"end":33431.27,"text":"目前大概接近八成已經剩下三成大概就是屬於那個新屋莊就原運那家公司他都放在岸邊剩一家公司對 剩下一家公司剩下一家公司所以70%已經完成去清運了大概將近快要到80%了他已經放在一個站置點而且符合規定的站置點我問一下我了解了我問一下目前"},{"start":33432.431,"end":33450.554,"text":"針對丹納斯颱風所造成的光電板之亂你們有沒有統計過總共開發多少金額開發幾間廠商我很好奇三間廠商總共一千萬只有三間廠商對那有沒有包含剛剛這個台塘的農地這個也有開發它是算在一起的"},{"start":33451.055,"end":33468.123,"text":"所以它算在一起的所以就是串三張那總共罰了多少錢那家廠商總共有三個池那有兩個池是被我們開始開罰那其中有兩家它有兩個池一個是罰到兩百萬另外一個是一百兩百三百總共加起來是那家廠商是九百萬"},{"start":33469.609,"end":33495.981,"text":"900萬 好我特別想要問一下你們清理跟回收光電板的計劃裡面在每年都有去編列相關的預算從111年到114年度我有一個表格可以給你看數字上面因為我們時間很有限我就不談了但我們上會期審查今年度的預算其實裡面只編了200萬當然我知道你會告訴我有編在其他的計劃當中可是我想要針對這200萬來詢問你"},{"start":33498.342,"end":33512.641,"text":"就是今年度的廢太陽光電模組的清除計畫是在什麼時候才決標的我們針對這兩百萬的部分你先不要跟我講其他的這兩百萬的部分是什麼時候決標的這個我不清楚因為這個是"},{"start":33513.962,"end":33534.429,"text":"我的數他們自己在標案我告訴你答案就是呢7月29號決標然後8月25號發的決標公告那這個公告呢是在7月15號的時候公告7月29號的時候開標而丹納斯颱風是7月5號早上的海警發布"},{"start":33535.909,"end":33550.903,"text":"所以我們看到這個標案這是你們自己環境部的相關的廢太陽光電板的回收資訊系統裡面寫什麼本年度委託清除廠商名單還在辦理當中請靜待相關的通知"},{"start":33551.403,"end":33574.454,"text":"所以在6月26號這個標案還在環境部的網站上我們去查的話他會告訴你說這個還在等待通知所以為什麼清理速度那麼慢不只是說當然廠商的怠慢可能是一個重點這個我不否認但是你的這整個太陽能的清除處理計畫到現在才公佈決標"},{"start":33575.895,"end":33590.94,"text":"然後呢在6月多的時候你可以看到我們這個訊息上面來講6月多已經有編列好預算的那也沒有也沒有告訴大家有哪些廠商名單在辦理所以這個部分我希望能夠調整跟改善"},{"start":33591.38,"end":33616.266,"text":"包委我報告一下因為他們這些廠商是3.5萬片他要去化是他們要跟那有四家的廠商其中兩家有營業他們要寄簽約自己去去化我們如果他一個編號有到期例如說20年我們可以跟能源署去申請這個經費我講的跟你講的東西不是完全一樣的所以你不要回答我一個跟我問你的問題沒有關係的好不好"},{"start":33617.046,"end":33633.315,"text":"你講別的我會很願意在會後跟你討論光電板的事情但是請你就回答我問你的問題就好了我不會聽不懂你在問什麼但是我另外想要問一下這個光電板的使用年限我們一般看是25到30年對吧"},{"start":33634.055,"end":33652.49,"text":"20到25年左右20到25年 那更短一些喔那我想要問現在整個台灣裝了幾片的光電板有這樣詳細的資料嗎我沒有特別統計大概但是我們是15GB左右大部分就好了就是大概的數字就好了我不用告訴我113不用"},{"start":33653.911,"end":33681.265,"text":"就大概來說有幾片大概是幾百萬片差不多200萬片因為我們光是在雲林台南張濱就有大概140萬片這個新聞都有報導的總體來說可能突破200萬片您剛剛說幾乎9乘9可以回收但是我看大部分的說法都是90%可以回收有10%它的回收難度非常的高請問部長是不是如此"},{"start":33681.545,"end":33690.45,"text":"是 因為它有一部分是塑膠的然後要去定義也就是說我們現在突破200萬片的規模在20年後它會產生200萬當然我就乘以10%的量體20萬的部分光電板它也變成是非常巨量的垃圾了"},{"start":33701.297,"end":33722.618,"text":"那先前那我要請問接下來的雖然那時候不是你們在執政可是我們現在要裝光碟板總是要把接下來整體的規劃去做一個環境的評估嘛那我想要問的是如果10%的是量體是沒有辦法去回收的那請問一下這20萬的不能回收的部分那未來你們又打算要怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":33723.519,"end":33739.992,"text":"基本上我剛才說有的業者是只能做到92%有的業者已經99%了而且國際的認證我就跟你講說我們大概就平均來講九成來說我們用一個大概率平均來講九成我也沒有虧待你我沒有說八成七成六成我們用九成來說實際上就會有10%的量體"},{"start":33743.795,"end":33766.34,"text":"那這個部分我想要知道的是我們裝了200萬片未來可能還會更多在20年以後它會一次性的產生大量的垃圾而且它是無法回收的狀態的時候請問我們現在是怎麼看待這些廢棄物的基本上它每一樣都可以回收只剩下不到10%那如果是10%的話目前我們發現那個是一個所謂的塑膠還有薄膜"},{"start":33766.84,"end":33787.685,"text":"他一樣是垃圾嘛我就只問你的問題一半我問你什麼你答什麼就好了嘛那就是這些垃圾到時候20年以後大幅度的發生了那要怎麼處理這個問題回答我這個問題就好基本上現在有越來越多家業者看到這樣的未來的商機他們也會願意去做這樣的工作所以未來的量能"},{"start":33789.065,"end":33808.377,"text":"你一樣啊因為你講的是說我們剛剛講說90%可以回收嘛我已經假定都可以回收了嘛那你有10%是沒有辦法回收的部分嘛那我沒有問你那九成啊我那九成我就suppose說你可以做到所以有一間廠商十間廠商一百間廠商都是一樣的啊我問的問題很清楚"},{"start":33808.717,"end":33830.275,"text":"就是那10%無法回收的部分那未來因為你裝200萬片那未來那10%無法回收的部分那請問20年以後大量的出現這樣的廢棄物我們政府現在的看法是什麼該如何處置基本上現在那個算是一種塑膠的薄膜它可以透過焚燒或是掩埋的方式別的處理所以你可能會用掩埋焚燒會不會產生化學氣"},{"start":33835.161,"end":33859.589,"text":"基本上現在我們的焚化爐管得非常嚴等於說焚燒的百分之十不能回收的東西它會不會有化學的就是說所有都可以回收那只剩下不到大概百分之十左右有百分之十怎麼會叫做所有呢有百分之十是沒有辦法回收的那它就不是所有都能夠回收嘛200萬片不是有20萬片不能回收"},{"start":33859.909,"end":33864.872,"text":"我完全沒有誤會我再講一次兩百萬片裡面會有90%是可以回收的但是在裡面有10%是沒有辦法回收的所以在這個部分我要問的是10%兩百萬裡面九成可以回收另外的10%那請問要如何處理"},{"start":33885.546,"end":33909.962,"text":"你要焚燒它還是要掩埋它不是 委員是每一片面板裡面有一個塑膠的膜那個認定我知道你剛剛講過了所以就塑膠而已我剛剛已經講過了總之我的結論是這樣子就是大家一直在繞圈圈也沒有辦法你們要想清楚這個目前沒有辦法回收的部分你要怎麼處理你是要掩埋還是要焚燒焚燒會不會額外產生一些氣體這都是環境部現在要去做規劃的"},{"start":33914.085,"end":33920.629,"text":"但是我这个议题就跟您讨论到这我们环境部长先暂停我们环境部长可以先请回谢谢"},{"start":33922.455,"end":33948.728,"text":"那我繼續請問卓院長每一次救災的時候我們都靠很多的這個軍人來救助對救災來說可以說是功不可沒的但是賴清德總統他到嘉義勘災的時候一開始卻說這個法律規定國軍不能進入民宅那當然後來他也修正了因為台灣事實查核中心也說並沒有明文禁止規定不能進到民宅只是需要符合程序地方人員有在場等等的要責任歸屬"},{"start":33949.608,"end":33969.39,"text":"但我想要問軍人救災這麼辛苦但是行政院對於三讀通過的軍人待遇修正案卻不願意依法編列讓辛苦救災的國軍士氣受到這麼大的影響那昨天我有聽您的質詢您提到說要送試卸可是同樣是送試卸才化法你們是先編列了"},{"start":33969.71,"end":33985.607,"text":"然後送事件可是國軍待遇條例你們是在一個沒有附議的過程當中沒有依法編列然後呢直接送事件就不編了那我想要問一下為什麼不是在大法官決議以前先依法辦理"},{"start":33986.701,"end":33997.856,"text":"第一個我們感謝國軍在歷次災損的時候災害來的時候都親臨現場幫助很多災民那麼我們對國軍的各項福利政府希望能夠循序漸進今年4月以後總統對於"},{"start":34002.242,"end":34016.934,"text":"我問的只有在於軍人待遇條例你們沒有依法編列你們說要釋憲但是我問的問題是為什麼不是先依法編列等到釋憲結果出來之後再依照憲法法庭的決議處理"},{"start":34018.999,"end":34042.844,"text":"我們在這次釋憲當中 我們也提出了暫時處分裁劃法沒有做暫時處分是不是沒有 我們這次有暫時處分裁劃法也有做暫時處分嗎裁劃法有沒有做暫時處分這次有暫時處分所以裁劃法跟國軍的這個待遇條例都有做暫時處分的情況之下我們有的有提釋憲 沒有提暫時處分有的有提釋憲 那我只問你裁劃法嘛裁劃法是不是有提暫時處分 也有提釋憲"},{"start":34044.673,"end":34053.546,"text":"我記得裁判官我們是只有提釋憲沒有提暫時處分好 所以你沒有提暫時處分你只提釋憲好 那我知道了所以你針對國軍的部分你特別還要提這個暫時處分特別針對國軍喔"},{"start":34059.574,"end":34069.384,"text":"我們希望所有公務員福利都能夠有公平性跟恆平性我們今年4月總統核定了對作戰部隊跟志願將官以下你們這個就是第一個公然違法打擊國軍事情但那是颱風是靠他們去救災的"},{"start":34080.214,"end":34106.801,"text":"你知道這些國軍現役弟兄他們被用完即丟的感覺非常的差院長你昨天說不能大幅增加預算但是我要說大幅跟小幅是用比較的就像暫時性關稅已經一個月還在暫時當然如果你跟一兩年比起來也可以說是暫時的你在國防預算的9500億當中軍人待遇提升我想要請問你知不知道比例佔多少9500億裡面如果軍人條例你可以通過的話佔比多少總統對軍人"},{"start":34114.861,"end":34122.119,"text":"事件結果出來之後我們知道事件結果一開始就"},{"start":34125.226,"end":34150.119,"text":"謝謝許竅興委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢謝謝報告委員會 我們中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例預算案的質詢已經詢答完畢再次感謝卓院長及相關部會首長列席答詢現在做以下決定一 中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案"},{"start":34150.979,"end":34175.484,"text":"交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查二將各委員會發言記錄及書面質詢函送行政院請就未答覆部分予以書面答覆三已提出之書面質詢尚未登載公報者一律補刊抱怨會再一次呼籲院會行政院卓院長及閣議員是應立法院邀請來立法院報告連續五場專案報告"},{"start":34179.056,"end":34207.799,"text":"很遺憾執政黨的卓院長但是沒有一個執政黨的立法委員在現場我覺得這是非常非常離譜所以我在這裡再一次呼籲民進黨團這種專案報告一定要請民進黨的立法委員在現場一位委員都沒有我們非常感謝國民黨團的徐維珍委員 徐曉新委員臺灣民眾黨團的林益君委員一起參與我們專案報告本次會議進行到此為止先來散會"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}