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張祺凱副總召到了好 謝謝黃國昌黃總召也到了好 謝謝各位黨團的總召謝謝各位列席的官員各位工作夥伴新聞界的好朋友今天在開朝野協商之前先給柯建民總召按個讚第一個到現場謝謝柯總召也謝謝各位列席的黨團幹部很辛苦也謝謝各位列席的官員我首先先向各位來介紹今天我們列席的"},{"start":1875.779,"end":1903.93,"text":"各部會列席的官員代表財政部的阮次長 歡迎您經濟部的何次長 歡迎您衛福部的邱部長 歡迎您邱部長剪頭髮了 看得好年輕行政院總署的陳副主席長 歡迎您勞動部的陳次長 歡迎您教育部的朱次長 歡迎您法務部的謝副司長"},{"start":1905.189,"end":1930.415,"text":"歡迎您好 謝謝各位我們黨編都已經有都到了還有陸續還有其他黨面黨團的幹部也在路上但是也都有代表在現場所以我們正式開始今日的朝野協商會議我們今天要進行因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例修正案的協商要在這裡首先我們請執政黨民進黨柯總召請發言國民黨團請準備"},{"start":1937.598,"end":1937.84,"text":"笑一下"},{"start":1940.956,"end":1968.237,"text":"主席 各位內需官員 各位市長代表 大家好今天是八三結束以後我們開始展開另外一個層面的開始應該是要理性對話來追求國家的發展這是本席在這裡嚴明在先那有關於今天的特別預算的修正的重點我在這裡代表執行長稍作說明"},{"start":1969.218,"end":1988.245,"text":"本來是5450億多礦裂420億所以達到是5900億那為什麼增加這個450億這個450億是用在什麼地方呢第一個強化電力系統要礦裂200億比如說北市科等等新的產業園區"},{"start":1989.98,"end":2010.318,"text":"第二個當然就是加碼這個都是族群再多匡列40億第三個花花心情總要有一個作為費用匡列10億再下來就是說一流下一階段產業支持方案再匡列200億那這些加起來410億兩個加起來剛好是"},{"start":2015.023,"end":2035.221,"text":"是五千九百億我想這個是大家這個國家發展商應該有一個理性對話空間另外在這裡也要提出一個請求就是說上次上禮拜五朝夕時間的時候有講到說預算以外法案有關於這個貨物稅條例"},{"start":2037.463,"end":2052.17,"text":"但是呢 院長到目前為止有九個案子是協商完畢不予協商的總共有九個案子是不是等一下我們都會表格在禮拜五就一起把它通過因為這些都是沒有意見的"},{"start":2055.107,"end":2070.378,"text":"所以說我希望禮拜五該通過的預算該通過的法案都能夠通過讓我們這個會議畫下一個美好的Ending以上請各位同仁支持好 謝謝柯總召的發言"},{"start":2071.229,"end":2091.93,"text":"今天真的要幫柯總召第二個點讚溫良恭儉讓 柯總召回來了以前是溫良恭儉 從來不讓謝謝柯總召理性的發言這樣展開理性的討論跟對話我相信對未來黨團的運作院裡面的一些行政立法之間的互動都會大有幫助 謝謝柯總召接下來我們請羅志強 羅首席副書長請發言台灣民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":2095.029,"end":2119.567,"text":"好 謝謝主席也謝謝我們兩邊黨團的幹部那其實第一個當然我覺得預算有需求這個用所當用我們也是會支持但是裡面其實有出現幾個問題我先初步點出來待會進到第二輪的部分我想請行政機關也說明一下就是說比方說舉個例子就是說"},{"start":2120.782,"end":2144.258,"text":"我們現在發現 我先講一個歷史的緣由這個台電過去在長久我們政府執政一面它都是國營事業的金雞母 盈餘都很多到2006年民進黨第一次執政的時候你就會發現台電開始由盈轉虧一直到馬政府執政之後 又讓它由虧轉盈"},{"start":2145.66,"end":2169.429,"text":"那等到馬政府卸任之後留下了828億的電價穩定基金給這個新的政府所以還有留錢給大家可是大家看這九年發生了什麼事情這九年來我們撥補了台電三千億那還有所謂的強化韌性電網的五千億這都是拿公務預算來去支應的"},{"start":2170.185,"end":2189.834,"text":"那馬政府時代我就先講那個撥補馬政府時代沒有撥補任何一毛錢給台電所以即便沒有撥補最後還留下828億的電價穩定基金這就是國民黨執政時候的一個國營事業經營效率那就產生一個問題那為什麼民進黨政府竟然要撥補3000億然後還要什麼呢還虧損了超過4500億"},{"start":2198.018,"end":2226.314,"text":"那再加上強韌電網的這個計畫五千多億它分十年期嘛那理論上這強韌電網部分當時立法院也支持啊那執行過程當中為什麼我們電網還是這麼脆弱那出現一個最根本的疑惑就是說是不是這個洞它變成某種無底洞那馬政府所做得到不用撥補還留電價穩定基金給新政府而現在卻要撥補三千億"},{"start":2228.015,"end":2251.431,"text":"還虧損四五千億這一點我覺得行政機關可能要說明清楚否則的話你在新增200億的電網這部分的話我會有點懷疑那是不是又是一個放水流的結果對我們立法院在監督預算的部分我覺得可能我們可能必須向選民做說明跟交代"},{"start":2252.301,"end":2273.067,"text":"那另外就是我也不是很懂就是說這個我們還稅漁民普發現金為什麼作業費要10億那我看以前的作業費就是在這個我們的所謂的那個疫後強化經濟及社會韌性全民共享經濟成果的特別預算裡面那他的業務費我看是3億多"},{"start":2274.81,"end":2303.04,"text":"那為什麼今天到了賴清德總統就要失憶呢那還有很多細部的問題我覺得可以先一個一個討論我們也可以先聽聽民眾黨的意見我們到轉移圈來大家來看看聽清緣由之後我們來看說怎麼樣能夠滿足我講說國人對於我們勘警政府荷包把錢用在刀口之上我們這樣的一個審查的一個基準必須向台灣人民交代 謝謝"},{"start":2303.78,"end":2329.463,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強首席副市長的說明在台灣民眾黨的說明之後要請行政部門準備說明現在請黃國昌總召請說明好 謝謝院長喔上一次在議場後方院長針對這件事情召開程序性黨團幹部彼此意見交換的時候其實我們那個時候已經有讓各個黨團以及院長報告過"},{"start":2331.195,"end":2354.657,"text":"我們對這件事情的不解、困惑跟覺得離譜至極我為什麼會這樣說這個特別條例當初行政院提出版本立法院審議三讀通過七月的時候就已經三讀了"},{"start":2357.465,"end":2385.339,"text":"幾乎都是按照行政院的版本通過的除了普發漸進以外除了普發漸進以外幾乎都是按照行政院的版本通過在行政立法彼此的互動上你們送了版本立法院三讀通過接下來該做的事情是什麼就是依照特別條例把你的預算案送來結果我們的行政院"},{"start":2386.721,"end":2414.604,"text":"在特別條例過了以後沒有編預算沒有把預算書送來然後我們的卓榮泰繼續在那邊說說普發現金違法違憲違法違憲也不敢提復議啊不是嗎然後送這一個修正草案來"},{"start":2416.254,"end":2440.05,"text":"趕鴨子上架好像在野黨的立委不趕快審不趕快照他們的意見過就是在阻擋普發一萬塊的現金怎麼會有這麼荒謬的論述啊現在民進黨政府是覺得反正我掌握了媒體我掌握了側翼要怎麼抹黑要怎麼胡說八道都沒有關係嗎"},{"start":2441.721,"end":2467.418,"text":"台灣人民會忘記是誰在阻擋發一萬塊的現金嗎台灣人民會忘記是誰說發一萬塊違法違憲嗎會忘記是誰為了這件事沒有順他的意不肯把預算送到立法院來嗎你行政院提的特別條例我立法院三讀通過"},{"start":2468.752,"end":2496.668,"text":"你不就是應該依照立法院通過的特別條例把預算送來嗎結果現在預算不送來竟然是提特別條例的修正草案什麼時候發生過這麼荒謬的事啊還是對於行政院來講反正我現在的伎倆就是你們只要不順我的意我就不送預算書來我就針對你的特別條例再送修正案"},{"start":2498.305,"end":2506.029,"text":"你不按照我的意思修正通過我不送預算書來就是在野黨在組黨普發一萬塊怎麼會有一個執政黨是用這麼傲慢這麼囂張近乎無賴的方式在面對這麼嚴肅的議題更何況當初"},{"start":2524.927,"end":2552.083,"text":"當初在面對高關稅的時候台灣民眾黨黨團的版本我們還幫行政院的版本加碼多給產業一點多給勞工一點多給農漁民一點全部都反映在我們的版本我記得很清楚啊當天表決封殺我們案子的就是民主進步黨就是執政團隊的立法院黨團"},{"start":2553.697,"end":2580.447,"text":"然後現在送一個修正案來說不夠再多給我兩百億我完全看不懂啊那你們當初在封殺台灣民眾黨的案子是在封殺什麼我們在野黨幾乎是在做執政黨的事跟你說這樣可能會不夠多給你一點 你不要你不要把我們的案子封殺掉三讀通過了以後我們作為少數黨我們也是遵照國會的遊戲規則"},{"start":2583.868,"end":2602.877,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨8票投我們的版本被封殺了我們也按照民主審議的遊戲規則就接受啦就等你們行政部門送案子來啊結果行政部門預算書不編來現在說啊 不夠我還要再多200億怎麼會有這麼荒謬的事情啊然後說普發現金"},{"start":2613.254,"end":2640.731,"text":"要多編十億來普發現金上一次普發現金的時候蘇貞昌普發現金的時候作業費多少錢行政院不知道嗎決算都出來了還是你們以為現在的立委都很不用功都不會去看過去普發現金作業費花多少錢反正我大手一揮發現金我就是要十億的作業費"},{"start":2642.011,"end":2671.018,"text":"不給我 就是在野黨在阻擋普發現金怎麼會有這麼傲慢的行政團隊啊好 謝謝喔好 謝謝台灣民眾黨團的意見表達接下來行政部門發言完畢之後我們請吳斯堯幹事長準備那先請經濟部請院長還有各位委員大家好"},{"start":2671.721,"end":2689.366,"text":"那剛剛針對國民黨團所提到的就是說這一次我們在特別預算裡面又編了這個兩百億的預算那要來支持這個我們的這個中藥產業園區的這個供電振興的這個部分我想這個部分是確實是"},{"start":2690.626,"end":2695.068,"text":"是現在我們在整個經濟發展過程裡面尤其是我們面對這個未來這個美國對等關稅的這樣的一個大環境的一個改變那我們希望讓產業在投資台灣的過程裡面他要能夠穩定供電"},{"start":2708.034,"end":2727.463,"text":"而且也要讓我們的產業園區他們的一個生產力要能夠維持持續能夠來提升一個很重要的一個一筆費用那尤其現在的這個極端氣候環境之下過去產業園區除了科學園區以外其他都是單回路"},{"start":2728.143,"end":2745.241,"text":"那所以我們這一次希望能夠用雙維路去保證這個供電的這個穩定性那這個部分是我們在這一次特別預算特別對這個產業園區供電韌性所提出來的這個部分那第二個部分就是針對剛剛這個黃委員所提到的"},{"start":2746.042,"end":2763.189,"text":"就是說我們為什麼還要再多增加這兩百億那事實上也是因為美國他們在7月31號剛宣布對台灣暫時性的這個對等關稅的稅率20%那我們跟產業界的這個座談產業界都希望政府能夠"},{"start":2764.869,"end":2785.403,"text":"這個擴大對產業的這個支持所以我們希望在關稅談判這個定案之前我們預留這200億然後作為未來政府在提供產業支持上面能夠有多一些籌碼那未來也可以用這200億元我們可以照顧更多的這個產業所以這個行政團隊這邊才提出這樣的一個預算 謝謝"},{"start":2790.106,"end":2805.185,"text":"好 謝謝經濟部的說明主計總署的代表可不可以副主席長可不可以請說明一下這個預算的問題剛剛黃國昌總召所提的請說明我是財政部好 請說財政部我來補充一下剛才"},{"start":2807.768,"end":2825.653,"text":"提到就說要增加10億元這一部分這10億元不是作業費最主要是原來編的預算是2,350億但是現在我們人口初估就是2,357萬人所以就少了7萬人7萬人就是7億"},{"start":2830.27,"end":2848.905,"text":"那其他的原來的那個多人的其他的那個3億多就那個作業費用就是比如像這個交易的手續費等等這些那個就跟112年發放的這個金額的差不多這一樣的以上好 謝謝財政部說明現在主席總署請說明"},{"start":2850.467,"end":2872.67,"text":"是 我在這邊做一個說明就是說當然立法院通過這個法律案這絕對是立法權的這個部分只是說這一次的任性特別條例所增加的這個普發現金一萬元因為它所影響的數字是達到兩千三百五十億"},{"start":2873.431,"end":2893.116,"text":"那因為這樣的一個條例的內涵它實質已經增加支出所以我們才會有這個違憲的疑慮所以我們現在就是讓它能夠合憲所以才會提出這個特別修正案來讓它能夠符合我們憲政的體制"},{"start":2898.437,"end":2912.165,"text":"謝謝主席總書的說明也跟各位黨團幹部報告一下我們台電的曾董事長也到了等下針對台電的問題第一階段我們請經濟部打訊針對台電的問題大家如果黨團幹部有問題我也會請曾董事長來回答我們現在請吳士堯幹事長請發言"},{"start":2916.41,"end":2936.759,"text":"謝謝院長召集今天的朝野協商在上週五的時候在議場的後方各黨也獲得共識也非常謝謝院長的促成各黨的同意所以才會有今天我們坐在這裡大家都有共識期待能夠為這個任性特別條例的修正案"},{"start":2937.339,"end":2957.959,"text":"我們坐下來好好來看看各黨能不能夠協調出共識所以說如果還要在講回之前說為什麼要送修正案什麼我覺得可能就會多耗費一點額外的時間但是我希望先優先針對今天在修正案的第三條第六條跟第九條的部分我們先就條文論條文"},{"start":2959.9,"end":2983.523,"text":"第一個 第三條是增加了這個本條例所規範的適用要發放給不管是停產業 不管是安定社會不管是駐弱市 不管是發現金四個面向對應於我們有哪些政策的措施項目所以原條文是十一項目"},{"start":2984.403,"end":3009.921,"text":"那新增的第三條是增加一個項目就是我們要增加對於強化電力系統的這一項所以在野黨的委員同意或不同意在條文上就是增這一項至於剛剛所說的發現金要增加多少錢因為當初是人口估錯了嘛少算7萬人嘛就少編7億嘛那個 對嘛那"},{"start":3013.123,"end":3036.469,"text":"發現金的部分的10億元也好或者是我們加碼駐弱式的40億也好或者是產業擴大支持的200億也好其實跟這些條款無涉新增的只有台電的強化電力系統200億是在這一款所以大家對於這一款有沒有意見落在條文就是討論這一條第三條的最後一項"},{"start":3037.523,"end":3046.556,"text":"第二個第六條在處理的就是跟預算面比較有相關了就是那個總額我們原本從5450億增加到5900億就會剛剛回到剛剛說的在野黨委員同不同意這個總數的增加"},{"start":3054.187,"end":3074.554,"text":"所以這個是大家可以就這個條文的部分否則也可以請在野黨委員看那你們不同意加碼到5900億因為我非常同意啊當初這個在野黨委員說希望能夠因應關稅增加對於產業的扶植所以我想行政院也回應了在野黨的這個訴求也增加編列了產業的200億"},{"start":3076.775,"end":3091.245,"text":"那總不能說參採了在野黨的意見現在還要來罵行政院說你為什麼現在又要增加這個就是回應產業的需求也是一個善意的接納在野黨委員的意見所以說在這個從5450到5900億裡頭是唯一跟預算的數字比較相關的所以等一下可以聚焦如果在野黨的委員不同意到5900億那他們是要5800億嗎還是多少可能就是在野黨委員"},{"start":3105.416,"end":3121.99,"text":"舊條文論條文這個可以提出更具體的說法第三個條文就是第九條第九條要處理的是當初立法院通過的是針對發現金的時間的限制希望在10月31號前發放完畢"},{"start":3123.231,"end":3151.563,"text":"但是行政部門回去做了檢視過去我們的政府發了一次的現金另外是三次的消費券或者是促進振興券這樣唯一一次可以參採的就是2023年蔡英文總統任內確實善用了稅計剩餘然後發放了每個人六千塊的現金所以可以參採的是這個因為發券跟發現金它的作業又不一樣"},{"start":3152.663,"end":3171.036,"text":"所以可以參採的2023的經驗我們可以看喔從立法院那時候三讀通過那個議後振興特別條例的時候通過然後編預算到完成法案三讀通過到開始可以領現金的作業時間是49天"},{"start":3173.556,"end":3199.673,"text":"所以他是有一个作业时间的那上一次因为是第一次发现金你可以说在野党委员可以质疑说49天是不是有了第一次的经验可以缩短或者是说因为他从6000块增加发放到1万块这一次可能作业期间要再拉长也有可能所以过去的经验就是至少49天所以可见在野党的委员要明定在10月31号"},{"start":3201.915,"end":3221.052,"text":"錢要發放完畢這真的執行有困難我剛說的只是啟動作業規劃可以開始領喔從法案三讀通過立法院完成通過到開始可以領現金作業時間就要49天然後上一次2023年發6000塊現金好像是給大家6個月嘛"},{"start":3221.772,"end":3237.114,"text":"因為給國人方便的時間所以這一次是不是也要給國人合宜的時間可能有的國人他在國外啦他在怎麼樣給一個合宜的時間所以從作業的時間的準備乃至於發放的時間要給民眾合宜的時間"},{"start":3238.996,"end":3259.167,"text":"相對寬裕的時間去領都不可能在第九條在野黨當初提的強制在10月31號前發放完畢如果在野黨委員這一條不調整的話很有可能發生一個狀況你時間還是10月31號真的很多人來不及領可能只發一部分而已也不一定"},{"start":3260.103,"end":3284.245,"text":"所以說為了讓發現金發好發滿作業時間充分然後民眾有充分的時間來領取也不會擠在某一個時間點那麼在第九條的部分也有調整的必要所以說我先用條文的部分來回應這都是有需要做調整的回過頭來對不起主席還沒有回過頭來"},{"start":3286.007,"end":3303.263,"text":"支持產業的預算相信大家有共識增加發現金的10億因為人口估算少算了7萬人也應當有共識然後加碼弱勢我相信在野黨也會支持那就回過來台電這個部分台電這個部分我也要非常"},{"start":3305.189,"end":3317.282,"text":"懇切的請大家能夠理解這個200億是在提高科學園區跟產業園區的供電品質尤其是北中南三大科學園區還有產業園區的強化用電"},{"start":3321.328,"end":3344.234,"text":"我来自于台北市,我绝对非常期待这一笔预算,因为士林北投科学园区是全台湾北台湾最后一块科技廊带的拼图。也是过去台北市政府从郝龙斌市长、柯文哲市长到现在蒋万安市长都期待的一个有利于产业以及地方发展的建设。"},{"start":3345.394,"end":3372.903,"text":"對於園區現在正在招商場商進駐就是要有穩定的用電更不要說現在揮達向準了希望能夠進駐北市科等一下台電可以增加說明如果這一筆預算獲得立法院的支持將可以有利於我們跟台北市政府的溝通取得設這個便電所這個相關的電力設施的期程"},{"start":3373.883,"end":3381.341,"text":"所以我是以我的選區的北市科它也不是只有台北市的需求是全台灣產業的需求想想揮達進駐台灣"},{"start":3383.706,"end":3405.846,"text":"落腳北台灣的這個產業的意義是什麼所以這200億真的請在野黨的委員這完全是扣合著因應關稅的衝擊給產業更合宜的穩定供電的需求但講回來如果在野黨委員依舊有1億的話那就是第12款要怎麼處理嗎"},{"start":3407.407,"end":3428.787,"text":"對不對所以很具體的我用條文來論述跟實際的需要來論述那至於在未來審預算的時候項目保留了總數定一個合一的總數當然執政黨是捍衛院版那未來在每一個細項是審特別預算的時候大家可以來嚴格監督合理審查"},{"start":3429.688,"end":3445.785,"text":"但是現在是在做條例所以我認為去談很細節的執行要支用哪些那都應當是特別預算的時候討論的最後一點我想我們都是要依法行政捍衛憲法的憲法70條預算法91條我們財政紀律法第三條第五條"},{"start":3451.971,"end":3475.323,"text":"針對一個財政紀律的秩序我認為捍衛這個財政體制是國會也需要看守的所以這是為什麼行政部門再送出修正案的理由我們非常懇切的需要駐產業挺弱勢護民生發現金我們需要這個特別條例可以在這個會期最後的時間來予以通過"},{"start":3476.403,"end":3503.323,"text":"好 謝謝吳司遊幹事長的發言那民進黨團兩次發言了國民黨團要不要二次發言好 請王宏威書記長發言台灣民眾黨團請準備好 那個主席還有我們行政院的官員以及我們各黨團的幹部那我想這次的修正基本上剛才黃國昌總召也特別講"},{"start":3504.224,"end":3529.187,"text":"就是說其實我們在立法院在8月1號其實總統府就已經公告我們三讀通過的這個特別條例照理說行政院應該送過來的是特別預算而不是在送特別條例那這樣子的一個程序說實在跟過去也完全這個程序完全不符"},{"start":3529.807,"end":3534.719,"text":"所以基本上 這並不尊重立法院的一個在立法的一個審查權"},{"start":3539.008,"end":3557.645,"text":"那當然我們現在基於因為現在面臨一個非常特殊跟關鍵的時刻就是我們全體的外銷產業面臨美國對等關稅的衝擊所以呢立法院其實基本上我們現在在野黨團是顧全大局"},{"start":3560.808,"end":3562.55,"text":"顧全我們受創的產業受創的勞工還有農漁民所以今天我們在這邊要協商這個特別條例照理說這個特別條例根本就是一個大違建因為它原來就有一個主體在那裡"},{"start":3579.904,"end":3603.612,"text":"我們委曲求全 為什麼委曲呢我剛才講了是為了我們廣大的外銷產業跟受影響的勞工和農漁民至於剛才我們民進黨團的吳思堯幹事長說我們因為其他修正條文並不多只有三條我想基本上在第三條的部分"},{"start":3605.993,"end":3610.279,"text":"可能最有爭議性的就是有關於強化電力系統這個部分剛才大家也都談過了因為之前的特別條例送來的時候要台電補貼1000億那個時候的特別條例已經把它刪除"},{"start":3622.316,"end":3624.257,"text":"那現在感覺是這個化整為零或者是另外變了一個名目就變成說那這樣你不給我一千億好吧你給我兩百億好了那我覺得用這樣一個討價還價巧立名目的方式去塞在這個特別條例事實上我覺得搭這種便車大可不必"},{"start":3648.604,"end":3669.36,"text":"因為當時我們就是要求台電尤其我們現在整個的行政院應該去檢討現在錯誤的能源政策那當然你們這次是用這個強韌這個電網韌性那我剛才也收到了因為我前兩天在質詢卓院長還有我們次長的時候我就說"},{"start":3670.561,"end":3677.686,"text":"在111年的時候事實上台電就有一個10年強化電網韌性的計畫這個金額高達5645億"},{"start":3687.213,"end":3714.761,"text":"那這個十年計畫後來呢這個次長告訴我現在要把它精簡成六年精簡成六年也可以啊那我們就來檢視一下也就是金額沒有減少但是呢你的時間縮短基本上我是贊成的那麼因為我們要強化電網韌性不要動不動就因為這些小動物變成因此而停電那我剛才看到一個最新的數字"},{"start":3716.516,"end":3720.04,"text":"這個強化電網韌性的計劃到今年7月底為止總計應該要有331件工程完成了107件預定的進度是32.02%他說現在實際進度又比預定進度有一點點超前"},{"start":3739.98,"end":3768.231,"text":"所以我在這邊要跟大家報告的是也就是強化電網韌性的建設計劃在台電原來就有一個10年計劃而且高達5645億這樣算下來是什麼呢算下來一年呢平均560幾億你把它縮成6年那一年呢他要執行的更高要執行的更高除此以外我們現在呢在立法院"},{"start":3769.791,"end":3784.448,"text":"應該是今天我還忘記今天還明天要審查的災後重建計畫災後重建計畫也有強化電網韌性當然你們的說法是這個部分是主要是針對災區的部分Total加起來也超過100億"},{"start":3785.929,"end":3800.224,"text":"所以我要讲的强化电网韧性不管是十年计划不管是现在重建这个灾后重建计划这个金额基本上我们也愿意支持所以你的其实金额已经非常非常的高了"},{"start":3800.945,"end":3823.943,"text":"金額非常非常高所以你在這邊再搞一個200億老實說我覺得除了要錢之外我看不出有任何的特別意義啊你台電一年到底可以執行多少億的多少億的一個強化電網韌性給了你錢其實你也沒有也沒有做得很好啊所以我要講的第一個強化電網韌性根本不缺錢我的結論就是強化電網韌性根本不缺錢"},{"start":3829.767,"end":3840.032,"text":"包含這個五千六百多億還有馬上要給你的一百億所以它不缺錢所以我們如果回復到就是比較詳細的就是針對這些條文來做修正的話那麼強化電力系統的這個部分兩百億我認為只不過是巧立明目化整為零再來要錢"},{"start":3852.057,"end":3874.855,"text":"那另外的部分呢 就是對於第六條的部分那當然這個所需的經費上限5900億它就要隨著待會兒我們對第三條的最後的修正它必須也要做一些調整那另外剛才特別有講到就是發放現金的作業費的部分"},{"start":3875.555,"end":3886.762,"text":"因為剛才是吳思耀幹事長他講說為什麼十億呢因為我們講說你就在幾年前發六千塊只要三億多作業費只要三億多怎麼會過幾年我們人口有暴增三倍嗎"},{"start":3894.369,"end":3897.31,"text":"好等一下你聽我講完嘛你聽我講完所以基本上我們的要求因為照這樣你就不應該編到作業費上啊不是很奇怪嗎人頭變作業喔那不覺得很奇怪嗎你不就是被我們抓出來然後說哎呀沒有啦因為你的作業費怎麼暴增三倍我們我們的這個消費物價有這樣飛漲三倍嗎你發六千三億多發一萬就變成"},{"start":3924.418,"end":3942.492,"text":"變成10億好你現在說作業費變成人頭了是因為這個人數增加了到時候我們就要保證你你的作業費不能夠比之前發放這個6000塊的增加對不對這樣合理吧這樣合理吧"},{"start":3945.899,"end":3950.723,"text":"沒有人口增加就是當然你這個金額我剛剛要講的所以這件我講得很清楚因為我們給錢也是要有一個原則我也不能閉著眼睛給另外一個部分比較重要了就是我們很在乎的第九條的部分"},{"start":3965.117,"end":3976.573,"text":"第九條的部分主要是方放日期因為原條例是要在十月底前完成發放十月底前完成發放當然我可以理解因為我們發放有所謂的線上的領取"},{"start":3982.561,"end":4003.512,"text":"也有實體的領取那確實我們在過去的發放的過程裡面那確實總是會有一些民眾他不是那麼快速的可能大部分比較熟悉使用網路的他可能在線上發放他就可以非常快速但有一些呢也確實他可能要到郵局那麼才能夠履起實體的實體的這個現金所以"},{"start":4010.555,"end":4033.76,"text":"我可以接受我可以接受這個發放時間要有一定的期限因為我也不希望說你10月底前完成那個領取在10月底前那10月底之前沒有來領的人他就落空了我想這也不是我們原來原來這個立法的初衷所以在這個部分我可以接受就是在這個你"},{"start":4036.08,"end":4045.346,"text":"執行的時間是在七個月七個月內我不曉得是不是所謂的七個月內發放完畢也就是到時會訂一個如果超過這個七個月是不是就不再發放這個待會兒可以幫我們再說明一下幫我們再說明一下"},{"start":4054.412,"end":4057.354,"text":"因為這個發放時間我覺得牽涉到民眾的權益問題我們除了希望能夠快速而我們也希望能夠照顧到所有的民眾並不是只有這個因為總是有一些所謂資訊落差的民眾他可能等到一段時間才知道其實他可以領這一萬塊"},{"start":4075.583,"end":4102.27,"text":"或者他現在人在國外他沒有辦法很快的來做領取我們通通都理解所以你基本上七個月內發放完畢我可以接受但是也請說明一下是不是代表這個時間點就是這個七個月後時間一到是不是就完全就是結束發放這個部分能不能幫我們來做一個說明以上 謝謝"},{"start":4104.048,"end":4129.435,"text":"那個台灣民眾黨團發言之後要請台灣電力公司的曾董事長要提出說明因為您是焦點中的焦點好幾個都提到您的問題再來要請財政部也要一併說明就是到了假設七個月之內發時間截止之後沒有在這時間領到的錢的人國民朋友可不可以繼續領取因為這個是很關鍵好 我們現在請台灣民眾黨團二次發言"},{"start":4133.546,"end":4145.83,"text":"謝謝院長針對剛剛行政院的代表所說我們這次行政院之所以沒有按照之前本院通過的特別條例授權給你們編預算案來"},{"start":4148.834,"end":4168.525,"text":"你們到目前為止預算案沒有送來採行的方式是針對這一次的特別條例再提你們的修正案來行政院說是為了要避免違憲台灣民眾黨黨團對於行政院這樣的態度跟說法完全沒有辦法接受完全沒有辦法接受"},{"start":4170.114,"end":4197.723,"text":"港民進黨黨團的代表援引憲法70條憲法70條規定立法院對於行政院所提的預算案不得為增加支出的提議預算案 三個字這個試讀能力應該不會有問題除非是有一些綠營的側翼粉專自己善改了中華民國憲法70條的規定把預算案再加上法律案鬧成了一個大笑話"},{"start":4199.042,"end":4224.8,"text":"把自己過去所有的信譽全部都丟到垃圾桶裡面去如果不是看那個側翼粉專的內容應該不會產生這樣的誤會所以現在行政院的立場是什麼如果我把你們的針對這個特別條例的修正草案我全部都不予採納我全部都不予採納按照原來的特別條例編預算行政院認為還是違憲嗎"},{"start":4227.828,"end":4253.724,"text":"還是沒有關係只要過水了過完了這一個水即使你們所提的修正草案本院全部都否決還是就變合憲了我完全搞不懂行政院的邏輯到底是什麼是只有接受你們的修正草案才會變合憲嗎不是啊那你爭執有違憲的部分現在在你們的條文裡面修正草案的重點是什麼都要給我錢嘛"},{"start":4254.949,"end":4283.399,"text":"再多給我錢啊 再多給我450億啊你行政院要的根本就是錢嘛你就是多要450億才提這個修正草案嘛扯到本院三讀通過的法律案違憲經過你這樣修正草案丟來的就突然變合憲喔這個是什麼憲法學上高深的道理啊我完全聽不懂完全聽不懂 第二個"},{"start":4285.526,"end":4314.151,"text":"我們這個是針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費任性特別條例這個是有個特定的立法目的在處理的特別條例結果這次為了多要錢是不是像王宏威委員所講的之前要給台電的一千億被我們否決掉了以後變另外一個名目變另外一個名目再來要錢我基本上傾向的看法也是這個樣子"},{"start":4316.257,"end":4330.478,"text":"但我即使用你名目上面的藉口來看強化電網什麼北中南區科技園區這不是早就該做的事嗎這不是早就該做的事嗎還是我們的行政院"},{"start":4331.84,"end":4353.462,"text":"在沒有碰到高關稅以前北中南區的科技園區的電網強化從來沒有放在心上從來不在施政目標然後遇到高關稅衝擊的時候突然發現我們北中南區的電網好脆弱要多給我錢不給我錢我沒有辦法做如果國會敢不給我錢在野黨敢不給我錢馬上"},{"start":4355.063,"end":4374.779,"text":"今天協商結束了以後鋪天蓋地的網軍又出來了這些在野黨不顧台灣高科技的發展不顧台灣電力供應的穩定竟然連高科技園區要的電網穩定的錢都不給我們除了王宏威委員剛剛所講的10年5645億的強化電網韌性建設計畫以外"},{"start":4383.973,"end":4400.446,"text":"行政院自己不知道強化電網從什麼時候開始喊的從什麼時候開始喊的從蔡英文第一任當總統就開始喊了我記得很清楚從那時候就開始喊了那時候就開始編經費了我遠的不講109年智慧電網工程"},{"start":4408.421,"end":4413.965,"text":"48.9億110年智慧電網工程50億111年智慧電網工程86.8億111年還有15.7億112年80到90億我現在念的這些喔都不是王宏威委員剛講的10年4600多億的喔這個都是額外的喔"},{"start":4434.127,"end":4459.194,"text":"如果今天是遇到高關稅我們的政府才想到我們北中南區的智慧電網很脆弱要趕快補強 要用這個特別條例那真的是我國高科技產業的悲哀怎麼會有這麼不負責任的政府怎麼會有這麼不負責任的政府所以要用條文論條文 我們具體的"},{"start":4461.428,"end":4484.178,"text":"第三條的第十二款強化電力系統 台灣民眾黨不同意不同意的理由很簡單 早就該做 本來就做 持續在做要用這個名目來要錢 要用這個名目來要錢然後還是我們拒絕了以後 等一下綠媒 側翼 網軍全部都出來"},{"start":4485.973,"end":4514.511,"text":"所以我們要弱化台灣弱化台灣的電網跟當初說要發現金一樣說在野黨是配合中共要弱化台灣這不就當初民進黨提出來的論述嗎沈博洋當初不就是這樣講的嗎現在是行政院什麼要決定配合在野黨一起弱化台灣嗎全部都變成中共同路人嗎第三件事情增加給"},{"start":4516.978,"end":4544.188,"text":"針對高關稅的衝擊多給錢我們當初就說啦要多給啊否決的不就是你民進黨立法院黨團嗎我有記錯嗎那個表決燈立法院公報都還在啊今天知道錯了沒有關係我們從善如流那但是針對這個錢你要增加200億的部分我們認為除了企業以外勞工呢"},{"start":4545.91,"end":4553.419,"text":"農漁民呢勞工呢 農漁民呢所以針對200億的部分我們會提出附帶決議"},{"start":4554.963,"end":4576.149,"text":"因為到時候預算書你們送來了以後我們通過特別條例上面都沒有框金額在這個總金額之下符合特別條例預算你們要怎麼編就怎麼編預算編來了以後我們只能刪我們只能動我們不能增加我們也不能移項目所以在特別條例如果要增加這200億的話這200億在分配上面該給勞工的"},{"start":4582.608,"end":4611.71,"text":"改給農漁民的增加對於勞工跟農漁民的照顧我們願意用附帶決議最後一點就好也請等一下行政院代表說明一下上次在普發現金六千塊的時候我們已經花了公帑建置了一套系統了請問那套系統是用完一次就丟掉嗎還是那套系統還在上次那個系統花了多少錢能不能再用還是這次要重新發包一次"},{"start":4613.052,"end":4640.741,"text":"重新發包一次重新再做一次上次那個系統花多少錢還能不能用現在這一次是打算要再重新做一次嗎然後以及上次發六千元請問發放率總共發放的發放率有多少是百分之百全部發放嗎是百分之百全部發放嗎這個對我們在省接下來就這個特別條例的部分都有關係也請行政部門一併說明"},{"start":4643.069,"end":4649.273,"text":"謝謝黃國昌總召的二次說明那接下來我們請財政部針對兩個重點問題第一個是王宏威"},{"start":4650.253,"end":4671.794,"text":"我簡單的報告一下就是說第九條的發放期間這邊規定是七個月七個月到了以後就停止發放總是要一個截止日這個做法跟112年是一樣的這是第一點說明"},{"start":4672.964,"end":4697.105,"text":"第二個剛才黃委員提到的就是說上次發放的時候那些系統能不能用都還是可以用但是這邊的所需要的經費是什麼就是交易的手續費你要匯款的時候要有手續費還有自動的櫃員機ATM那個系統要重新調整"},{"start":4698.726,"end":4722.667,"text":"另外網路你要有網路的費用客服費用這些都是參考上一次發放的這個模式來編列所以基本上我們是何時來編對不起 次長您 王宏威所提的最重要的重點您還沒有回答就是假設七個月發放之後"},{"start":4723.508,"end":4737.8,"text":"沒有在這個7月領取的他有沒有資格再來領取他可能人在國外就不能再領取了因為那個系統就關了嘛OK 王威偉那你現在聽到財政部的說明就是這個訂了7個月之後沒有在這個7月領取就不得再領取了"},{"start":4739.196,"end":4761.783,"text":"沒有他現在剛剛講的就是說上一次六千塊六千塊等一下那個六千塊就是這樣做法嗎就當時領的是七個月對 就是七個月的時間就是過了這個七個月沒有領取的國民朋友就不能再領了這個問題就回答了好不好那那個系統可以繼續用財政部講得很清楚現在要請台電了那個曾董事長"},{"start":4762.603,"end":4787.93,"text":"那你現在大家都很想聽一下您怎麼說明好嗎請好那謝謝院長我把幾個狀況跟委員報告一下就是有關因為這幾年當然都是有一些行政院編列的預算給台電那給台電有很多不同的項目就看起來就很多東西在一起所以我覺得需要一點時間釐清簡單來講第一件事情行政院沒有撥補過給台電3000億"},{"start":4791.195,"end":4815.972,"text":"只有五百億 兩千五百億是增資他完全沒有辦法跟虧損相抵消所以這是第一件事這個重點 黨團幹部先暫時那個王航威署長請聽一下台電他講這個非常重要這第一件事情就是其實是經濟部多持有了台電兩千五百億的股票是增資 不是補貼我想說這個"},{"start":4817.637,"end":4819.879,"text":"是2500億所以我還低估了那你不進一步的錢不是我們的錢是你的錢唉呦 亂扯"},{"start":4837.517,"end":4858.05,"text":"我們先請曾董事長委員我這樣講我這樣說因為他不能夠他沒有辦法抵消虧損這完全是不一樣的事所以把這個疊在虧損上我覺得我這是第一個要釐清的事第二個釐清的是10年的5600億這一個預算基本上是當2022年的時候那時候正發生一個很大的電網事故"},{"start":4858.63,"end":4885.991,"text":"所以整個隆起以南隆起以南的電廠全部都跳機所以造成隆起以南幾乎全部都停電那也花了24小時左右時間把它恢復起來那之後台電就做了一個長期的規劃要把所有這個過去為了效率能夠全國就是整個台灣島人融通的這一些電網要做分隔這第一件事第二件事情是剛才各位委員一直提到"},{"start":4886.972,"end":4900.262,"text":"就台灣其實用電成長真的非常的快那主要集中在一些特定的負載區域那大概成長最快的就是科學園區所以我們另外拉了特殊的線路去科學園區避免我們民生電網受衝擊"},{"start":4902.003,"end":4919.63,"text":"那這個是花比較長的時間要做到的事所以大部分的五千六百億的工作是在做這個那另外五千六百億裡面還有另外一個重要的指向就是避免一些重要變電設施等等受到影響停跳電的所以我們把變電站室內化然後把那個我們有一些在電感上裸露的部分能夠把它給絕緣包覆掉減少停跳電的數字"},{"start":4929.033,"end":4949.362,"text":"那這停跳電的數字其實這幾年來也陸陸續續在下降我想說這是一個事情那當然十年五千六百億一年要執行平均五百多億其實是非常龐大的工程這個台電完全同意就是對我們來說我們現在有丹納斯的預算又增加了一筆錢"},{"start":4950.987,"end":4964.915,"text":"那我們要去有效的執行它我們現在都必須跟公路崗位等等去協調怎麼樣同時施工才有辦法有效的來做這樣子的工作但我要跟各位委員報告現在的狀況是這些內容並不是"},{"start":4970.533,"end":4985.633,"text":"這些內容都是因為民眾的需求或是產業的需求帶動出來的需要而不是台電說我要增加我要增加什麼樣子一些工作項目等等去額外提出來的就是真正有這些需求"},{"start":4986.774,"end":5008.389,"text":"舉個例子來講13號在這邊也是院長協商就是在講丹納斯的預算的時候那時候我們也提到說你那個80億要做要做那個沿海的下地你做的夠嗎足夠嗎我也跟各位報告說那個其實有一定程度就只能夠做最重要的地方尤其兩年半其實不到兩年半現在已經八月底了"},{"start":5009.758,"end":5029.583,"text":"二十幾個月的時間我們要把它快速執行完畢其實真的是我要做很好的界面協調那當然接下來這個額外的兩百億就是在這個特今天誰三個特別預算裡面談到的兩百億他有兩個部分一個部分是剛才講到的一些產業園區比方說他供電要擴張"},{"start":5031.463,"end":5049.08,"text":"還有一些關鍵的節點要地下化除了這個以外有69億其實是配電的就低壓系統的就是我們在一開始在規劃丹納斯的災區的時候我想各位委員都有參與那次的協調就是那個是災區的範圍我們那時候就台電來講我們想到的就是台17線台19線是西南部"},{"start":5053.888,"end":5073.967,"text":"那後來災區的範圍其實變得一花東再加上苗栗以南都進來了有些確實比較脆弱的地方我們也覺得應該要納入來做一些地下化強固的工程那東岸其實過往在東岸其實過往因為颱風都從東邊來所以大家可能不曉得就是"},{"start":5074.768,"end":5095.68,"text":"花蓮台東像台九縣等等地下化的程度其實比西岸的雲嘉南來的高因為他颱風來所以這一次連台九縣台十一縣及台十七台十九有些部分要擴張的地方我們編了69億的預算要去做這些相關的地下化的工作"},{"start":5096.34,"end":5115.84,"text":"那當然委員可以說台電用自己的自有資金來支應那這當成是一種做法這個沒有問題我覺得這預算上要怎麼樣執行這是行政部門編列預算國會來做決定那你說要台電自己去執行台電用自己的財務去執行那是另外一個狀況但我要跟院長跟各位委員報告是"},{"start":5116.772,"end":5144.392,"text":"全世界現在有很多因為新增用電等等而產生的電網投資陸陸續續都有政府在編列預算支持的工作開始出現那我們台電公司其實也收集了最近這一段時間的一些新聞包括美國 德國等等都有在做這些相關的工作那只是說這一個事情值不值得政府來支持台電那就交給大院來決定 以上報告"},{"start":5145.148,"end":5153.756,"text":"好 謝謝曾董事長的說明各位黨團幹部我想我們現在跟大家報告369第6條"},{"start":5157.697,"end":5183.584,"text":"問題不大了只有黃國昌總召提出要用附帶決議對不對 我知道 我知道不要急嘛都已經兩輪發言讓我來講講第六條基本上已經達成共識了但是台灣民眾黨團要求提出附帶決議針對這個勞工 農民的朋友這要能夠予以支持是不是這個意思好 這個問題不大了第九條那財政部也說明得非常的清楚"},{"start":5185.37,"end":5191.604,"text":"這個當年的軟體還在可以繼續使用那時間一樣是七個月三個黨團也是沒有意見對不對"},{"start":5194.232,"end":5216.745,"text":"沒有意見我先讓我做個小結論讓我們的超級協商更有效率我們第三條顯然大家都有不同的意見那曾董事長做說明等一下我會針對第三條我們大家來展開黃金十分鐘的協商但我要先確定第六條跟第九條我剛剛這樣上述講各位是不是都同意"},{"start":5219.398,"end":5232.172,"text":"我們現在就不再講其他就針對第六條 第九條第六條其實基本沒有但是它最重要的是它的那個金額那個上限因為它是會跟著第三條牽動那第九條的部分"},{"start":5235.916,"end":5239.897,"text":"因為它的發放時間其實它最牽動的是特別預算對不對 按照現在的條文它是特別預算就是公布之後的一個月內開始執行那我想請問一下如果我們在這個會期我們如果在這個會期我們把特別條例通過"},{"start":5258.444,"end":5265.454,"text":"那請問一下行政院大概你們有沒有預計什麼時候會送這個特別預算"},{"start":5270.968,"end":5295.202,"text":"讓我們了解一下不然因為很多民眾會說我什麼時候領到一萬塊什麼時候領到一萬塊現在好像變成我們在欠他一萬塊一樣對不對所以民眾要知道我們又有一個回應所以可不可以行政院能夠答覆我們一下如果我們在這個本會期結束之前那個完成特別條例那你們特別預算大概什麼時候會送來柯總召你稍微等一下我們現在針對這個"},{"start":5298.005,"end":5321.44,"text":"剛剛王洪威委員的意思非常的清楚就是590億會根據上述強化電力系統做調整如果黨團都同意當然沒有問題如果黨團不同意那這就會調整這是第一個王洪威所的重點第二個重點就是到底什麼時候主席總署才能送出來讓每一個立法委員可以面對選民的時候做一個更清楚的宣示這個等一下請主席總署說明來 黃國昌委員請"},{"start":5322.918,"end":5347.735,"text":"那個針對剛剛院長所說明的第六條的部分跟院長還有各位黨團的代表報告第六條的部分依照行政院目前所提出來的因為我們不贊成他們在裡面針對強化電力系統的部分在灌水200億所以那個金額我們會把它調低"},{"start":5348.836,"end":5360.242,"text":"所以他本來寫的是5900億我們會把他調低成5700億這個是第一個部分第二個部分這個預算編下去"},{"start":5364.182,"end":5391.574,"text":"預算編下去那接下來按照這些要幫助產業幫助勞工 幫助農漁民的實際上面執行的狀況是什麼非常的重要所以我們在第六條的部分我們增加了最後一項因為既然要談修正草案就談修正草案嘛我們在第六條的部分台灣民眾黨黨團會提出修正動議我們要求依照本條例編列預算"},{"start":5392.975,"end":5393.556,"text":"也就是本院"},{"start":5416.454,"end":5436.581,"text":"不是不負責任的通過特別條例通過預算那你錢拿去怎麼花花到什麼地方去實際的進度是什麼還是錢給你的以後拿去亂花根本執行不利這不僅僅是國會要監督一般的公民也有資的權利我們會提出這樣子的修正動議"},{"start":5437.561,"end":5452.514,"text":"請您幫忙印一下換句話說黃國昌總召所同意的就是說除了電力系統之外是同意是5700億那現在只剩下第三條就是強化電力系統這一部分那柯總召請就針對條文 請"},{"start":5454.124,"end":5481.709,"text":"好我想今天已經差不多說明到最後要有結論了那當然這個是經過條文的時候有譬如說第三條荒山委員對第12款第12款不像第12款強化電力系統他不同意見他發表那就只有兩個版本表決嘛這很清楚至於他要增加負債結益那是一回事負債結益是一回事這是第一點"},{"start":5482.609,"end":5498.914,"text":"第二點 因為第六條剛才洪商委員說要增加再一款那一款就是 我覺得那是可以的那就把它加上去就好那可能另外一項了啦另外一項 那是OK的就這樣"},{"start":5503.027,"end":5514.285,"text":"有共識 有共識現在我們休息十分鐘曾董事長您可以跟各黨團溝通 好嗎好 你盡量放電希望你能夠達到你的效果我們休息十分鐘之後我們要進來做結論 好 謝謝"},{"start":6650.103,"end":6674.836,"text":"好謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐我們現在會議準備繼續開始好嗎來謝謝各位列席官員謝謝各位工作同仁請坐那我嘗試性來做一下結論第三條第六條任性特別條例我們保留送院會處理第九條我們就叫協商"},{"start":6676.121,"end":6676.141,"text":"宣讀"},{"start":6691.284,"end":6720.292,"text":"寫章結論後之第九條條文第九條本條例及其特別預算施行期間自中華民國一百十四年三月十二日起至一百十六年十二月三十一日子第三條第十一款應於本條例編列之特別預算公佈後一個月內開始執行發放作業並於七個月內發放完畢行政院應於本條例生效後一個月內將以本條例編列之特別預算案送交立法院審議本條例及其特別預算施行期間屆滿得經立法院同意延長之"},{"start":6720.902,"end":6726.606,"text":"提案人 臺灣民眾黨 立法院黨團 中國國民黨 立法院黨團 宣布完畢好 請副國務卿總統 請發言我現在朝野需要的是和諧我想賴清德總統所推動的這個大罷免這一年多也已經結束了這時候大家好好來做事情"},{"start":6749.446,"end":6777.973,"text":"能夠盡量能夠盡量大家達成共識盡量達成共識但是我想剛剛院長是好意大家讓台電曾董事長再來做一個最後的溝通那我們這裡要特別強調就是說公投的結果已經出來了大概希望使用核能的人大概是反對三倍的人所以國家的能源政策如果不解決"},{"start":6779.656,"end":6803.729,"text":"我們當然了解曾董事長他對台電他的責任但是我們更有對國家對所有產業的責任今天不是兩百億的問題是整個國家能源政策再不徹底檢討的話大小永遠在這裡空轉今天兩百億明天要多少億後天要多少億我們永遠在這裡打轉都轉不出去"},{"start":6805.09,"end":6832.096,"text":"所以這個也要跟台電剛剛韓院長真的是很客氣希望再溝通一下而且要特別強調已經講了這麼多天了這麼多天了10年5645億的這個強化電網韌性的這個預算到現在沒有執行完他都可以先用嘛他都可以先用嘛不需要這個時候5000多億沒有用完又到立法院來要錢"},{"start":6834.604,"end":6858.885,"text":"我們是覺得而且上一次風災的部分從560億我們主動提供到600億也讓所有災區的這個電網能夠地下化我們也都主動的支持那我在這裡要特別特別因為我今天這個看到這個邱太元衛福部部長在這裡我們真的很感慨"},{"start":6863.226,"end":6890.302,"text":"真的很感慨啊發動大罷免 配合大罷免所有的造謠生非的人全部都留任啊所有內閣造謠生非的全部都留任然後呢這個邱太元 邱部長啊還是我們少數啊滿敬佩的而且真的為異界做了很多事情的人而且在過程當中從來沒有"},{"start":6892.769,"end":6918.345,"text":"所謂的亂造謠言什麼藍白三預算而且邱部長到任何公開場合只要任何任何黨派的立委在場他都由衷的表達感謝好 鳳總我們先回到這個沒關係因為這是同樣一件事情同樣一件事情不是你愛邱太元部長就不要說他好好不好我要說他很好因為我們不能讓"},{"start":6920.503,"end":6941.062,"text":"這個如同賴總統說的這個雜質一直留在內閣裡面然後兩品都離開了我覺得這樣子真的很不適宜我們一定要把這個事情這個邱部長 邱部長我們雖然很遺憾沒有關係28年也歡迎你回來啦好不好"},{"start":6942.597,"end":6960.451,"text":"第九條您同意嗎您現在還沒有針對我們這個協商條文表達意見同意了還有一個修正動議馬上要念基本上院長主持的我們都表同意謝謝我跟邱太元部長一樣優秀好 謝謝來我們現在念附帶決議好宣讀附帶決議"},{"start":6965.069,"end":6972.337,"text":"將條例經費上限至新台幣5450億元增加250億元提高至新台幣5700億元其中預留200億元用以強化對產業支持擴大協助範圍並滿足各產業需求並增列40億元以加強對弱勢族群之照顧及關懷服務"},{"start":6983.85,"end":6994.54,"text":"應確保所預留的200億元中不低於50億元用於勞工安定就業措施另不低於50億元用於農業與產業發展支持提案人 中國國民黨立法院黨團 臺灣民眾黨立法院黨團 宣導完畢"},{"start":6998.427,"end":7019.496,"text":"好 各位黨團幹部如果沒有意見的話我就把協商結論快速的來念一遍好嗎好 謝謝時間8月27號星期三下午2點31分我們協商主題因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別條例第三條第六條第九條條文修正草案協商結論一"},{"start":7020.777,"end":7038.235,"text":"照協商條文通過第九條條文如後附二保留條文送請院會進行處理第三條及第六條條文三協商通過附帶決議項如後附四院會進行處理時廣泛討論由台灣民眾黨團推派一位"},{"start":7039.298,"end":7062.412,"text":"民進黨團推派一位 國民黨團推派一位每人發言時間三分鐘 逐條討論不再發言依序進行各條文黨團版本之處理五 本次協商各黨團T均列入公報記錄本案完成三讀之後 我們不再進行三讀後之發言各黨團也不再提出複議請問各黨團幹部有異議沒有異議 麻煩請各黨團簽署 謝謝"},{"start":7069.403,"end":7088.197,"text":"另外做一個重要宣告有關本會及最後一天院會處理完成協商之後及不需協商議案部分由於我們協商結論先前已經明定最後一天只處理四個討論議案因此對於上開未及於最後一天處理的議案我們預估"},{"start":7090.319,"end":7115.888,"text":"不含發言三讀後時間要至少四個小時所以時間實在是不夠時間不夠我們就訂夏會期加開一天的院會我們專門來進行處理這些議案好不好做一個重要宣告我們要爭取一下這些都是朝野有共識的議案但是那要等到夏會期啊院長節日過我們最後一個表決"},{"start":7117.91,"end":7118.15,"text":"那如果"},{"start":7147.628,"end":7165.998,"text":"那個報告院長這些都是社會期待很久的讓我們在這個會期各黨大家都有一個更好的成果像攬財條例資安法個人資料保護法還有刑事訴訟法"},{"start":7167.819,"end":7196.44,"text":"行政區劃法公路法道路交通管理處罰條例跟停車場法這個都沒有爭議都民生議案而且大家都各黨同意都不需要再協商也都可以直接院會處理的我們讓他再成為這個研會的最後的好的成績單我們是在爭取一下因為院會時間應當夠的這都是民生的各黨有共識的當天院本部也有其他的重要的會議也都發出去了"},{"start":7197.594,"end":7212.477,"text":"再溝通好了好不好我盡量我們等會再跟我們團隊我們再來溝通好不好好那謝謝今天各位協商的黨團代表也謝謝列席的官員我們現在散會"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2025082628","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"163765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/324b88563d49edfba30103b32d55905718dc12f595704a3daa0a86494a3daaa4340600c8c0d0f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"13:25:35 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要拆11基再來"},{"start":227.14,"end":245.009,"text":"這邊這裡發動要給你採50倍機的風 風液碼2012年一支風液碼一支是1次2012年 之前多少我不知道可能1倍以上一支風電機一年最多只能產生600萬度電 最好啦發動那些都用風胎1次來都17級、18級你說那天"},{"start":252.653,"end":264.562,"text":"藍瑜17集報表這風雨風雨要幾乎我都承受這麼大的風太大這低頻噪音你要把它動掉嗎你要把它動掉屏東這裡我事實反對我們現在已經做東海岸"},{"start":270.846,"end":282.332,"text":"恆春半島 南迴 緩風車大聯盟我們可能 阿哥就要 要我們想要就給你委了不用啦 不用 不用因為包委 我們環評是非常嚴格審的 委議經濟部要不然隨隨便便問他那你的看法是怎樣"},{"start":287.676,"end":302.6,"text":"基本上這個五百公尺以內如果有住宅的話要環評那我們會嚴格的把關我們過去也退過非常多次例如說彰化大城還有苗栗的都有推薦明顯告訴他不能開發 不准開發我們這個風電一度一塊錢的核電你不用你去用風電一度六塊多 七塊多 八塊"},{"start":314.007,"end":327.779,"text":"智障的人也知道這是不對的白癡也知道這是不對的這樣還趕著死去做這是龐大的利益就這樣搞所以我們沒有辦法再忍受這個昨天一堆人被抓了"},{"start":330.223,"end":345.535,"text":"所以我們環境部這裡你真有擔當我再次給你肯定希望這個一定要堅持 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝清泉委員接著我們請李博義委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1278,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（13時25分）謝謝主席，我請經濟部次長、水利署署長，還有環境部部長。"],["主席：好，請環境部部長、經濟部次長，還有水利署署長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：次長，昨天的大質詢我有跟卓院長提出要求，今天的質詢是延續的，我一定要給你盯緊一點，因為東港昨天又淹水了，一個月都要淹兩次，為什麼呢？東港街上兩處舊的抽水站，一個是成功抽水站，另一個是光復抽水站，分別是在馬英九時代及陳水扁時代各設一個，現在在鎮外，也就是東港大排跟牛埔溪的交接處，那個地方沒設水閘門，所以你看變成這樣，一個月淹兩次，而且那些都是鹹水喔，因為都是鹹水，所以造成路基、地基，以及一些設施都損壞了，而且非常嚴重，院長也有答應，我現在要進一步詢問你跟水利署，因為他說會叫水利署跟經濟部去做，請問你們什麼時候可以？我自己去看過好幾次了，也會勘過，請問你們什麼時候可以正式會勘？到時候我也要去，什麼時候可以幫我們匡列預算，讓我們可以趕快動工？不然一個月被人家譙兩次，你們也會被譙到變衰啦。"],["何次長晉滄：委員，我是不是請水利署長回答？"],["林署長元鵬：謝謝委員，委員剛才提到會勘的部分，我們會配合委員的時間啦，如果要快的話，下禮拜我們就可以馬上會勘，這部分已經有一些構想，就是說，因為當初沒做水門，所以海水會倒灌，所以這部分將來水門做了之後，相信這個問題會改善很多，我們可以配合委員的時間來儘速會勘，以上說明。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，趕快安排。"],["林署長元鵬：是，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個非常非常非常重要，因為鎮內街上那兩個抽水站設置之後，幾乎就不淹水了，幾乎不會淹水，所以你現在答應我會盡快，那就趕快安排，看看可不可以儘早開工，因為這是民怨，不管誰來主政，誰都受不了的事情。好，那這樣就謝謝次長。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：繼續請教環境部部長，5分鐘而已嗎？還沒講到時間就結束了。","我要再給我們的環境部彭部長肯定一下，這是內埔老埤農場，七、八百公頃要拿來種光電，你把它擋下來，你把它退件，我要再次給你肯定。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：你會不會又偷偷的放水？如果他們又捲土重來，這個很惡劣，這個會土石流喔！。"],["彭部長啓明：對，委員，不過申請是他的權利啦，但我們會嚴格把關，也跟委員報告，嚴格把關，因為他必須還要得到農政單位的許可等等。"],["蘇委員清泉：希望這個要好好的處理，不能再這樣，人家說國破山河在，我們現在是國在山河破！這是很么壽的事情，請你一定要顧牢。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，這是我們枋山要做風電的計畫，風機打算要這樣架設，一共要架設11支。再來，花東那裡要架設58支的風機，2012年時一支風機是1.2億，現在多少錢我不知道，可能要1.8億以上了，一支風機一年最多只能產生600萬度電，最好的狀況，花東那裡常會碰到颱風，每一次來都是十七級，十八級的強風，你看那天蘭嶼十七級爆表，這些風機有辦法承受那麼大的颱風嗎？加上它會產生低頻噪音，你要給它擋住喔！你要給它擋住，屏東這裡，我們會誓死反對，我們現在已經組成東海岸、恆春半島、南迴反風車大聯盟，我們可能下個月就要租遊覽車要來包圍環境部了。"],["彭部長啓明：不用、不用啦，報告委員，我們的環評是非常嚴格審的。"],["蘇委員清泉：包圍環境部跟經濟部，不然就帶來立法院，你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，500公尺以內如果有住宅的話要環評，這個我們會嚴格的把關，我們過去也退過非常多次，譬如彰化大城，還有苗栗的，都有退件，明顯告訴它不能開發、不准開發。"],["蘇委員清泉：針對風電喔，一度1塊錢的核電你不用，你去用風電是一度六塊多、七塊多到8塊，智障的人也知道這是不對的，白癡也知道這是不對的，但你們還硬要這樣做，這有龐大的利益，所以就這樣搞！我們沒有辦法再忍受這個了，昨天一堆人被抓了嘛，環境部這邊……你很有擔當，我再次給你肯定……"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：希望這個一定要堅持，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","接著我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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部長辛苦了我想這個即將開學在即就是9月1號其實下個禮拜之後其實全台灣的所有的學校即將都要開學那迎接新的一個學期其實這次這個災後的校園的一個重建其實不只是硬體的一個修復啦"},{"start":50.245,"end":79.06,"text":"那是不是也能夠在整個修復的過程當中保障學生全體師生的一個安全其實也是至關重要的那但是呢根據我們這一次的這個校安的通報那總財損的部分呢是高達了有六億四千多萬但是呢這是有校安通報的其實還包含其他沒有校安通報的一個數量那我想呢在泰市全國性而且是跨行政區的那不只有在一些特定的一個縣市啦"},{"start":79.6,"end":107.306,"text":"所以我想要問的就是說有一些潛災的損害並沒有被納入所謂的考量比方說它可能是事後才會浮現所謂的災害的一個現象包含操場它可能現在當下看起來好像狀況是OK可是也許在不同的天候之後它可能也是因為這樣有一些地質上的一些改變或延遲性的一些故障那這些沒有被納入的我們之後要怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":110.471,"end":130.803,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的關心確實我們這一次各地方主要的這個南部中南部的所報的災損事實上是超過就委員所說的這個有五六億那我們已經教育部國教署裡面已經優先用這個處理全國的一個高中已經"},{"start":131.543,"end":151.749,"text":"全部都全部補助有7000多萬包括部分的中小學我們自己已經實際這個支持了有超過1億元那這一次的一個特別預算裡面災區我們在申請了一個我們是4億4億那超過的這2億多要從哪裡來做分配或是怎麼樣處理"},{"start":153.169,"end":172.527,"text":"因為我們整個所有的一個災損的統計是六億四千多萬嘛但是我們的特別預算的部分是編了四億四億是那其他的我們已經都先既有的一些經費裡面優先處理了那至於剛才委員所關心的說有一些確實有一些可能因為時間以後才一段時間以後他"},{"start":174.289,"end":182.074,"text":"突出突顯的一些問題我們也都會這個按照這個工程會跟還有教育部他可以行這個還是可以這個來提報然後我們還是會去現場這個了解然後給你支持來改善"},{"start":190.499,"end":206.579,"text":"所以現在已經都在盤點也在規劃其他的縣市因為其實這個修復其實需要時間但是因為即將又要開學因為在整個修復的人力或者是物資的投入的情況之下其實可能各個縣市都在搶都在搶工 在搶人"},{"start":209.302,"end":227.721,"text":"這個部分我們有辦法可以克服讓學生能夠盡早在學校的校園生活開學的同時能夠盡快恢復正常就是這個部分我們怎麼樣如期的運作不會影響他們的教學品質是跟我們報告確實我們確實是這樣有立即性的我們已經大概七八月都處理完"},{"start":228.181,"end":247.481,"text":"那屬於工程端的部分當然它需要一些時間那至於像學校裡面基本上它這一個開學大概都能夠正常的一個開學這一個部分我想我們在國教署教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握那偏遠學校的部分呢偏遠學校的部分呢"},{"start":247.961,"end":273.021,"text":"都一樣好 如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程可以再麻煩提供如果或者委員有看到我們有掛一錄萬是這一個也歡迎委員隨時讓把這個資料給我們來處理好 謝謝部長那接下來其實文化部的部分我可能要請教一下這個次長的部分了部長請回 謝謝好 文化部那我想延伸一下因為今天時間最後一點點的時間好"},{"start":278.976,"end":298.765,"text":"市長好委員好我想這個文化資產的一個修復也是同樣的一個道理不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史的一個建物或者是這個聚落的一個重建等等這次的風災其實也相對的嚴重那我們來看一下這個去年的例子去年不管是凱米或者是山陀鵝其實我們有四處"},{"start":299.705,"end":319.182,"text":"目前規劃是有四處 比方說像新竹的五天佑紀念碑雲林的警察局的舊宿舍群另外還有雲林的北城國小宿舍群另外還有這個屏東書院等等那看到這四件事去年的風災要重建的一個名單那目前這四件當中只有"},{"start":319.622,"end":343.553,"text":"其中一件只有屏東書院有完工那其他三個依舊是沒有辦法再加上因為我們的現實是降師嚴重不足那緊接著下來我們有很多地方的一個文物的修復喔其實有可能會在進程上會有所延宕這個部分可以簡短回答然後之後再給我書面的一些報告可以嗎"},{"start":345.167,"end":365.823,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們降師不足的現象我們現在研擬的方式是會用以修代訓的方式等於是有一個降師然後帶領一些還在學習中的進到場域裡頭去這樣可以擴大我們修復的量能"},{"start":367.004,"end":382.534,"text":"因為今天真的是時間不夠但是我相信其實不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲這個連連的問題其實都存在文化部要怎麼樣來確保在修復的工作要如期如值的完成這個部分事後再提供給我們謝謝議請委員接著我們請林業請委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1222,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（13時12分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長。"],["主席：請教育部部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，部長辛苦了。9月1號開學在即，下個禮拜之後全臺灣所有的學校即將都要開學，迎接新的一個學期，這次災後校園的重建，其實不只是硬體的修復，是不是也能夠在整個修復的過程當中，保障學生、全體師生的安全，也是至關重要的。但是根據我們這一次的校安通報，總財損的部分是高達了六億四千多萬，但這是有校安通報的，其實還包含其他沒有校安通報的數量，我想災害是全國性，而且是跨行政區的，不只有在一些特定的縣市。所以，我想要問的就是，有一些潛在的損害並沒有被納入考量，比方說它可能是事後才浮現災害的現象，像操場，可能當下看起來好像狀況是OK，可是也許在不同的天候之後，可能也會有一些地質上的改變或延遲性的一些故障，針對這些沒有被納入的，我們之後要怎麼樣來處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的關心，確實我們這一次各地方主要南部、中南部所報的災損，事實上是超過委員所說的，有五、六億，我們教育部國教署已經優先處理全國的高中，已經全部補助有七千多萬，包括部分的中小學，我們自己已經實際支持超過1億元。而這一次的特別預算裡，災區我們申請了一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是4億？"],["鄭部長英耀：4億。"],["郭委員昱晴：那超過的這個兩億多要從哪裡來做分配，或是怎麼樣處理？因為所有的災損統計是六億四千多萬，但是我們的特別預算是編了4億。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，4億。其他的我們都已經從一些既有的經費裡面優先處理了。至於剛才委員所關心的，有一些確實可能因為時間，一段時間以後……"],["郭委員昱晴：延遲性的故障……"],["鄭部長英耀：才凸顯了一些問題，我們也都會按照工程會跟教育部……他們還是可以循這一個來提報，我們還是會去現場了解，然後給予支持並改善。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以現在已經都在盤點，也在規劃其他的縣市？"],["鄭部長英耀：有，是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，其實修復需要時間……"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是因為即將要開學，整個修復人力或者是物資投入的情況之下，其實可能各個縣市都在搶工、搶人，這個部分有辦法可以克服嗎？讓學生能夠儘早在學校校園生活，在開學的同時能夠儘快恢復正常，這個部分怎麼樣如期的運作，才不會影響他們的教學品質？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，跟委員報告，我們確實是這樣，有立即性的，我們已經大概在7、8月都處理完。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["鄭部長英耀：屬於工程端的部分，當然需要一些時間，至於像學校裡面，基本上他們大概都能夠正常的開學，這個部分，我想在國教署、教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握。"],["郭委員昱晴：那偏遠學校的部分呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：都一樣。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程再麻煩提供給我，因為今天時間有限……"],["鄭部長英耀：如果委員有看到我們掛一漏萬，也歡迎委員隨時把資料給我們，我們來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。","接下來文化部的部分，我可能要請教一下次長，部長請回，謝謝。"],["主席：好，文化部。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想延伸一下，用今天最後一點點的時間。次長好。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想文化資產的修復也是同樣的道理，不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史建物，還是聚落重建等等，這次風災其實也相對的嚴重。我們來看一下去年的例子，去年不管是凱米或者是山陀兒，其實我們目前規劃有四處，比方說像新竹的吳天祐紀念碑、雲林的警察局的舊宿舍群，還有雲林的北辰國小宿舍群，另外還有屏東書院等等，這四件是去年風災要重建的名單，目前這四件當中只有其中一件，只有屏東書院完工，其他三個依舊是沒有辦法，再加上現實是匠師嚴重不足，緊接著下來有很多地方的文物修復，有可能在進程上會有所延宕，這個部分可以簡短回答，然後之後再給我書面的報告可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員關心。關於匠師不足的現象，我們現在研擬的方式是以修代訓的方式，等於是有一個匠師帶領一些還在學習中的人進到場域裡頭去，這樣可以擴大我們修復的量能。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，今天真的是時間不夠，但是我相信不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲，這個問題其實年年都存在，文化部要怎麼樣確保修復的工作要如期、如質的完成，這個部分之後再提供給我相關資料。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝昱晴委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著我們請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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國教署好 教育部部長還有國教署署長委員好"},{"start":23.773,"end":45.048,"text":"部長午安今天有兩小題要跟您請教第一個是關於這次丹納斯颱風災情嚴重剛剛很多位委員都有提到多個縣市有很多災情其中跟教育相關的是各縣市有蠻多縣市的連續停班停課多日"},{"start":45.848,"end":71.898,"text":"虽然是暑假但是很多学校都还是在上辅导课所以想跟部长跟署长讨论一个教师权益的公平性的问题今年三月教育部有一个解释令让领终点费的教学支援人员如果遇到台风天上班上课被停止的时候可以依照原来排定授课的结束弹性之领终点费"},{"start":72.678,"end":76.479,"text":"不會讓這些老師因為颱風假收入頓時減少這是一個很用意良好的解釋令只是我們發現這個解釋令沒有擴及到同樣領終點費的兼任教師跟待課教師"},{"start":91.004,"end":107.814,"text":"那他們呢就會因為颱風架尤其是連續颱風架領不到這個薪水這個部分的薪水那其實就造成一個教育現場有不同的終點費同一個颱風天那是很不公平的狀況所以我第一個部分很簡單下一頁請問部長"},{"start":110.515,"end":131.003,"text":"那教师终点费的知己是不是可以在校园中有同样的标准不要因为兼任代课教师他的身份使得同样是台风架那他就完全没有收入可以领这个部分是不是那我也有用预算案来提出不知道部长是不是可以就今天承诺呢"},{"start":131.616,"end":155.439,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心我們這些第一線上的這些老師因為天災或者一些其他不可抗擊的因素的一些前意上我想這個我覺得委員所提的是合理的基本上我們樂觀其成也希望能夠跟地方政府能夠建立有一個共識能夠希望對老師因為來自於"},{"start":156.88,"end":186.096,"text":"天然在不可抗拒的对他的许多的授课上这个权益上的一些这可能的一些影响谢谢部长那唯有预算案我们就一起处理谢谢您的承诺好那再来呢也是跟一个教师权有关的下一页那我想部长应该知道我一直关心代理教师的问题因为代理教师如果没有被照顾到那他们等于很可能就是未来的教师流失之后对我们教育现场非常的不好"},{"start":186.756,"end":203.807,"text":"那本周一就是8月25号教育部有发一个新闻稿回应媒体就是媒体报道说全国目前有2600个教师职缺的问题那教育部的新闻稿说缺额没有那么多那实质上是你们说是1429位"},{"start":217.196,"end":231.909,"text":"新聞稿寫得很好很有道理但是我要提醒的是這一個月來在大法官釋憲之後代理教師原本就依照年資可以採取血腥制度這個制度上路以來"},{"start":232.589,"end":250.039,"text":"基層教師蓄心爭議頻傳可是國教署一直沒有處理我認為這個新聞稿跟實質上國教署的我們看到的行為好像沒有在處理誘因因為你今天讓代理教師沒有一個公平的制度蓄心"},{"start":251.139,"end":267.904,"text":"當不下去了你反而就流失了未來的正職老師權益保障很重要我們來看一下我辦公室接到多少成錢有這些狀況明明你們的虛心辦法說跨縣市代理私校年資都被採記可是他們都被拒絕"},{"start":268.624,"end":268.664,"text":"還有呢"},{"start":288.585,"end":304.306,"text":"就是當年沒有成績優良證明就變成不予採記那你們的辦法說幼兒園研資也是可是基層的人士不知道為什麼都看不到你們的公文完全拒絕他們那我要講的事情是為什麼我今天要來質詢夏業"},{"start":306.567,"end":332.969,"text":"如果我的辦公室詢問你們可以解決的話我今天就不用再提出來了我們辦公室詢問你們國教署是不是發一個統一說明認定基準譬如有個案例事宜嘛 案例事宜結果你們的回答是說提敘相關制度已施行多年因不深認定爭議這麼多爭議了你們說沒有認定爭議我們辦公室詢問說現在有大量認定爭議是否有減變的申訴機制"},{"start":334.87,"end":356.927,"text":"你們回給我們的文說請依教師法申訴程序申訴或者是還鼓勵他們找教師會或行政單位溝通那我覺得這樣子會讓大家感受到跟你們的新聞稿不一致你都要地方政府對他們友善了可是國教署明明可以統一發文函釋案例示意的卻沒有做那是不是"},{"start":357.728,"end":379.39,"text":"就三个诉求第一个尽速发函制作案例事宜不要让基层的老师无所适从第二个能不能有一个快速有效的申诉窗口第三个是不是严密评估代理教师有一个统一的年资提报系统那这三个是不是能够有些可以直接做到的有些评估的一个月内给本席书面报告好不好"},{"start":380.441,"end":401.652,"text":"好 最後一步提供書面報告謝謝委員的關心我想委員所關心的都是非常合理事實上我最近也在星期一也在板橋跟以北部的這些老師這個基層老師座談我接著還會在中部 南部跟離島的老師座談我希望"},{"start":402.833,"end":417.749,"text":"第一線上的老師的許多的權益包括許多的可能給教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持一個合理的專業讓他能夠展現專業好好的在人才培養謝謝部長也請國教署長督導一下不要這麼的官僚式的回應行政的部我們來進行書面給歡迎委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1183,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時59分）感謝召委，有請教育部鄭部長跟國教署彭署長。"],["主席：教育部部長還有國教署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安。今天有兩小題要跟您請教，第一個是關於這次丹娜斯颱風災情嚴重，剛剛很多位委員都有提到多個縣市有很多災情，其中跟教育相關的是，有蠻多縣市連續停班、停課多日，雖然是暑假，但是很多學校都還在上輔導課，所以想跟部長及署長討論一個教師權益公平性的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：今年3月教育部有一個解釋令，讓領鐘點費的教學支援人員如果遇到颱風天而上班、上課被停止的時候，可以依照原來排定授課的節數彈性支領鐘點費，不會讓這些老師因為颱風假而收入頓時減少。這是一個用意良好的解釋令，只是我們發現這個解釋令沒有擴及到同樣領鐘點費的兼任教師跟代課教師，他們就會因為颱風假，尤其是連續颱風假而領不到這個部分的薪水，其實就造成教育現場在同一個颱風天有不同的鐘點費，那是很不公平的狀況。我第一個部分很簡單，請問部長，教師鐘點費的支給是不是可以在校園中有同樣的標準呢？不要因為是兼任、代課教師的身分，使得同樣是颱風假，但他就完全沒有收入可以領，這個部分我也有用預算案提出，不知道部長是不是可以在今天承諾呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心這些第一線老師因為天災或者其他不可抗拒因素而影響到權益，我覺得委員所提的是合理的，基本上我們樂觀其成，也希望跟地方政府能夠建立共識，老師因為天然災害或不可抗拒的因素，對他的授課上會有權益上的一些影響，給予……"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，我也有預算案，我們就一起處理，謝謝您的承諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：再來也是跟教師權益有關的，我想部長應該知道我一直關心代理教師的問題，因為代理教師如果沒有被照顧到，很可能就是未來教師流失之後，對我們的教育現場非常不好。本周一8月25號教育部有發一個新聞稿回應媒體，媒體報導全國目前有2,600個教師職缺的問題，教育部的新聞稿表示缺額沒有那麼多，你們說是1,429位，而且也請各地方政府要建立代理教師聘任的誘因機制，提升這些老師的教學意願。新聞稿寫得很好、很有道理，但我要提醒的是，這一個月來，在大法官釋憲之後，代理教師原本就依照年資可以採取敘薪制度，這制度上路以來，基層教師敘薪爭議頻傳，可是國教署一直沒有處理，我認為這個新聞稿跟實質上我們看到的行為，國教署好像沒有在處理誘因，因為你們讓代理教師沒有一個公平的敘薪制度，他就當不下去了，你們反而就流失了未來的正職老師，所以權益保障很重要。","我們來看一下我辦公室接到多少陳情有這些狀況，明明你們的敘薪辦法是跨縣市代理、私校年資都被採計，可是他們都被拒絕；年資證明標準不一，要他繳交離職證明、服務成績優良證明後，還要繳交考評會紀錄，這根本不是當年離開的代理教師有辦法拿到的資料；還有一些學校廢校、停辦，無法取得證明，你們說可以去找地方教育局，教育局也沒有協助；當年沒有成績優良證明就變成不予採計；你們的辦法是幼兒園年資也是，可是基層人士不知道為什麼都看不到你們的公文，完全拒絕他們。","我要講的事情是，為什麼我今天要來質詢？如果我的辦公室詢問你們可以解決的話，我今天就不用再提出來了，我們辦公室詢問國教署是不是發一個統一說明認定基準，譬如有個案例釋疑，結果你們的回答是，提敘相關制度已施行多年，應不生認定爭議。這麼多爭議了，你們說沒有認定爭議。我們辦公室詢問現在有大量認定爭議，是否有簡便的申訴機制，你們回給我們的文是，請依教師法申訴程序申訴，或者是鼓勵他們找教師會或行政單位溝通，我覺得這樣子會讓大家感受到跟你們的新聞稿不一致，你都要地方政府對他們友善了，可是國教署明明可以統一發文函釋、案例釋疑的，卻沒有做。","我有三個訴求：第一個，儘速發函製作案例釋疑，不要讓基層的老師無所適從。第二個，能不能有一個快速有效的申訴窗口？第三個，是不是研議、評估，讓代理教師有一個統一的年資提報系統？這三個是不是有些是可以直接做到的，而有些要評估？一個月內給本席書面報告，好不好？"],["主席：好，請教育部提供書面報告，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我想委員所關心的，都是非常合理的。事實上，我星期一也在板橋跟北部的這些基層老師座談，我接著還會在中部、南部跟離島的老師座談，我希望把第一線老師的許多權益，包括教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持、一個合理的支持，讓他們能夠展現專業，好好地在人才培育……"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，也請國教署長督導一下，不要這麼官僚式的回應，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：行政的部分我們來精進，謝謝委員提醒。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長跟署長，請你們提供書面給范雲委員。","接著請王世堅委員質詢，王世堅，王世堅委員不在。","郭昱晴，郭昱晴委員……對不起，請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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這個會土石流喔委員他申請是他的權利啦那我們會嚴格把關也跟委員報告嚴格把關他必須還要得到農政單位的許可等等"},{"start":201.272,"end":214.421,"text":"希望這個要好好的不能再這樣人家說國破山河債我們現在是國債山河破這是很要事的事情好 你就要顧到來 再來這是我們榜山要做風電要做風電 要拆這樣 要拆11基再來"},{"start":232.152,"end":250.056,"text":"這邊這裡發動要給你採50倍機的風 風液碼2012年一支風液碼一支是1次2012年 之前多少我不知道可能1倍以上一支風電機一年最多只能產生600萬度電 最好了發動那些都用風胎1次來都17級 10倍級你看那天"},{"start":257.678,"end":269.591,"text":"藍瑜17集報表這風雨風雨要幾乎我都承受這麼大的風太嘛這低頻噪音你要把它動掉嗎你要把它動掉啊屏東這裡我事實反對我們現在已經走東海岸"},{"start":275.878,"end":285.904,"text":"恆春半島 南回緩風車大聯盟我們可能 阿哥就要 因為我們車子要給你換不用 不用 不用報告委員 我們環評是非常嚴格審的 不用經濟部如果沒有 隨隨便便給我們你會看到是怎樣"},{"start":292.709,"end":307.779,"text":"基本上這個五百公尺以內如果有住宅的話要環評那我們會嚴格的把關我們過去也退過非常多次例如說彰化大城還有苗栗的都有推薦明顯告訴他不能開發 不准開發我們這個風電一度一塊錢的核電你不用你去用風電一度六塊多 七塊多到八塊"},{"start":319.041,"end":332.768,"text":"智障的人也知道這是不對的白癡也知道這是不對的這樣還趕著死去做這是龐大的利益就這樣搞所以我們沒有辦法再忍受這個昨天一堆人被抓了所以我們環境部這裡你真有擔當我再次給你肯定希望這個一定要堅持 好不好好 謝謝好 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在搶人"},{"start":212.285,"end":230.701,"text":"這個部分我們有辦法可以克服讓學生能夠盡早在學校的校園生活開學的同時能夠盡快恢復正常就是這個部分我們怎麼樣如期的運作不會影響他們的教學品質是跟我們報告確實我們確實是這樣有立即性的我們已經大概七八月都處理完"},{"start":231.161,"end":250.448,"text":"那屬於工程端的部分當然他需要一些時間那至於像學校裡面基本上他這一個開學大概都能夠正常的一個開學這一個部分我想我們在國教署教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握那偏遠學校的部分呢偏遠學校的部分呢"},{"start":250.948,"end":276.008,"text":"都一樣好 如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程可以再麻煩提供如果或者委員有看到我們有掛一落萬是這一個也歡迎委員隨時讓把這個資料給我們來處理好 謝謝部長那接下來其實文化部的部分我可能要請教一下這個次長的部分了部長請回 謝謝好 文化部那我想延伸一下因為今天時間最後一點點的時間好"},{"start":281.963,"end":301.754,"text":"市長好委員好我想這個文化資產的一個修復也是同樣的一個道理不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史的一個建物或者是這個聚落的一個重建等等這次的風災其實也相對的嚴重那我們來看一下這個去年的例子去年不管是凱米或者是山陀鵝其實我們有四處"},{"start":302.694,"end":322.169,"text":"目前規劃是有四處比方說像新竹的五天幼紀念碑雲林的警察局的救助社群另外還有雲林的北城國小宿舍群另外還有這個屏東書院等等那看到這事件是去年的風災要重建的一個名單那目前這事件當中只有"},{"start":322.609,"end":346.539,"text":"其中一件只有屏東書院有完工那其他三個依舊是沒有辦法再加上因為我們的現實是降師嚴重不足那緊接著下來我們有很多地方的一個文物的修復喔其實有可能會在進程上會有所延宕這個部分可以簡短回答然後之後再給我書面的一些報告可以嗎"},{"start":348.154,"end":368.81,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們降師不足的這個現象我們現在研擬的方式是會用以修代訓的方式等於是有一個降師然後帶領一些還在學習中的進到場域裡頭去這樣可以擴大我們修復的一個量能"},{"start":369.33,"end":385.565,"text":"是因為今天真的是時間不夠但是我相信其實不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲這個連連的問題其實都存在文化部要怎麼樣來確保在修復的工作要如期如值的完成這個部分事後再提供給我們謝謝醫情委員接著我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1222,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（13時12分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長。"],["主席：請教育部部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，部長辛苦了。9月1號開學在即，下個禮拜之後全臺灣所有的學校即將都要開學，迎接新的一個學期，這次災後校園的重建，其實不只是硬體的修復，是不是也能夠在整個修復的過程當中，保障學生、全體師生的安全，也是至關重要的。但是根據我們這一次的校安通報，總財損的部分是高達了六億四千多萬，但這是有校安通報的，其實還包含其他沒有校安通報的數量，我想災害是全國性，而且是跨行政區的，不只有在一些特定的縣市。所以，我想要問的就是，有一些潛在的損害並沒有被納入考量，比方說它可能是事後才浮現災害的現象，像操場，可能當下看起來好像狀況是OK，可是也許在不同的天候之後，可能也會有一些地質上的改變或延遲性的一些故障，針對這些沒有被納入的，我們之後要怎麼樣來處理？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的關心，確實我們這一次各地方主要南部、中南部所報的災損，事實上是超過委員所說的，有五、六億，我們教育部國教署已經優先處理全國的高中，已經全部補助有七千多萬，包括部分的中小學，我們自己已經實際支持超過1億元。而這一次的特別預算裡，災區我們申請了一個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是4億？"],["鄭部長英耀：4億。"],["郭委員昱晴：那超過的這個兩億多要從哪裡來做分配，或是怎麼樣處理？因為所有的災損統計是六億四千多萬，但是我們的特別預算是編了4億。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，4億。其他的我們都已經從一些既有的經費裡面優先處理了。至於剛才委員所關心的，有一些確實可能因為時間，一段時間以後……"],["郭委員昱晴：延遲性的故障……"],["鄭部長英耀：才凸顯了一些問題，我們也都會按照工程會跟教育部……他們還是可以循這一個來提報，我們還是會去現場了解，然後給予支持並改善。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以現在已經都在盤點，也在規劃其他的縣市？"],["鄭部長英耀：有，是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，其實修復需要時間……"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是因為即將要開學，整個修復人力或者是物資投入的情況之下，其實可能各個縣市都在搶工、搶人，這個部分有辦法可以克服嗎？讓學生能夠儘早在學校校園生活，在開學的同時能夠儘快恢復正常，這個部分怎麼樣如期的運作，才不會影響他們的教學品質？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，跟委員報告，我們確實是這樣，有立即性的，我們已經大概在7、8月都處理完。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["鄭部長英耀：屬於工程端的部分，當然需要一些時間，至於像學校裡面，基本上他們大概都能夠正常的開學，這個部分，我想在國教署、教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握。"],["郭委員昱晴：那偏遠學校的部分呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：都一樣。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程再麻煩提供給我，因為今天時間有限……"],["鄭部長英耀：如果委員有看到我們掛一漏萬，也歡迎委員隨時把資料給我們，我們來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。","接下來文化部的部分，我可能要請教一下次長，部長請回，謝謝。"],["主席：好，文化部。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想延伸一下，用今天最後一點點的時間。次長好。"],["李次長靜慧：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想文化資產的修復也是同樣的道理，不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史建物，還是聚落重建等等，這次風災其實也相對的嚴重。我們來看一下去年的例子，去年不管是凱米或者是山陀兒，其實我們目前規劃有四處，比方說像新竹的吳天祐紀念碑、雲林的警察局的舊宿舍群，還有雲林的北辰國小宿舍群，另外還有屏東書院等等，這四件是去年風災要重建的名單，目前這四件當中只有其中一件，只有屏東書院完工，其他三個依舊是沒有辦法，再加上現實是匠師嚴重不足，緊接著下來有很多地方的文物修復，有可能在進程上會有所延宕，這個部分可以簡短回答，然後之後再給我書面的報告可以嗎？"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝委員關心。關於匠師不足的現象，我們現在研擬的方式是以修代訓的方式，等於是有一個匠師帶領一些還在學習中的人進到場域裡頭去，這樣可以擴大我們修復的量能。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，今天真的是時間不夠，但是我相信不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲，這個問題其實年年都存在，文化部要怎麼樣確保修復的工作要如期、如質的完成，這個部分之後再提供給我相關資料。"],["李次長靜慧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝昱晴委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接著我們請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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最後一步提供書面報告謝謝委員的關心我想委員所關心的都是非常合理事實上我最近也在星期一也在板橋跟以北部的這些老師這一個基層老師座談我接著還會在中部 南部跟離島的老師座談我希望"},{"start":411.877,"end":426.508,"text":"第一線上的老師的許多的權益包括許多的可能給教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持一個合理的一個專業讓他能夠展現專業好好的在人才培養也請國教署長督導一下不要這麼的官僚式的回應行政的部我們來進行謝謝委員謝謝委員提醒"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1183,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時59分）感謝召委，有請教育部鄭部長跟國教署彭署長。"],["主席：教育部部長還有國教署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長午安。今天有兩小題要跟您請教，第一個是關於這次丹娜斯颱風災情嚴重，剛剛很多位委員都有提到多個縣市有很多災情，其中跟教育相關的是，有蠻多縣市連續停班、停課多日，雖然是暑假，但是很多學校都還在上輔導課，所以想跟部長及署長討論一個教師權益公平性的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["范委員雲：今年3月教育部有一個解釋令，讓領鐘點費的教學支援人員如果遇到颱風天而上班、上課被停止的時候，可以依照原來排定授課的節數彈性支領鐘點費，不會讓這些老師因為颱風假而收入頓時減少。這是一個用意良好的解釋令，只是我們發現這個解釋令沒有擴及到同樣領鐘點費的兼任教師跟代課教師，他們就會因為颱風假，尤其是連續颱風假而領不到這個部分的薪水，其實就造成教育現場在同一個颱風天有不同的鐘點費，那是很不公平的狀況。我第一個部分很簡單，請問部長，教師鐘點費的支給是不是可以在校園中有同樣的標準呢？不要因為是兼任、代課教師的身分，使得同樣是颱風假，但他就完全沒有收入可以領，這個部分我也有用預算案提出，不知道部長是不是可以在今天承諾呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心這些第一線老師因為天災或者其他不可抗拒因素而影響到權益，我覺得委員所提的是合理的，基本上我們樂觀其成，也希望跟地方政府能夠建立共識，老師因為天然災害或不可抗拒的因素，對他的授課上會有權益上的一些影響，給予……"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，我也有預算案，我們就一起處理，謝謝您的承諾。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["范委員雲：再來也是跟教師權益有關的，我想部長應該知道我一直關心代理教師的問題，因為代理教師如果沒有被照顧到，很可能就是未來教師流失之後，對我們的教育現場非常不好。本周一8月25號教育部有發一個新聞稿回應媒體，媒體報導全國目前有2,600個教師職缺的問題，教育部的新聞稿表示缺額沒有那麼多，你們說是1,429位，而且也請各地方政府要建立代理教師聘任的誘因機制，提升這些老師的教學意願。新聞稿寫得很好、很有道理，但我要提醒的是，這一個月來，在大法官釋憲之後，代理教師原本就依照年資可以採取敘薪制度，這制度上路以來，基層教師敘薪爭議頻傳，可是國教署一直沒有處理，我認為這個新聞稿跟實質上我們看到的行為，國教署好像沒有在處理誘因，因為你們讓代理教師沒有一個公平的敘薪制度，他就當不下去了，你們反而就流失了未來的正職老師，所以權益保障很重要。","我們來看一下我辦公室接到多少陳情有這些狀況，明明你們的敘薪辦法是跨縣市代理、私校年資都被採計，可是他們都被拒絕；年資證明標準不一，要他繳交離職證明、服務成績優良證明後，還要繳交考評會紀錄，這根本不是當年離開的代理教師有辦法拿到的資料；還有一些學校廢校、停辦，無法取得證明，你們說可以去找地方教育局，教育局也沒有協助；當年沒有成績優良證明就變成不予採計；你們的辦法是幼兒園年資也是，可是基層人士不知道為什麼都看不到你們的公文，完全拒絕他們。","我要講的事情是，為什麼我今天要來質詢？如果我的辦公室詢問你們可以解決的話，我今天就不用再提出來了，我們辦公室詢問國教署是不是發一個統一說明認定基準，譬如有個案例釋疑，結果你們的回答是，提敘相關制度已施行多年，應不生認定爭議。這麼多爭議了，你們說沒有認定爭議。我們辦公室詢問現在有大量認定爭議，是否有簡便的申訴機制，你們回給我們的文是，請依教師法申訴程序申訴，或者是鼓勵他們找教師會或行政單位溝通，我覺得這樣子會讓大家感受到跟你們的新聞稿不一致，你都要地方政府對他們友善了，可是國教署明明可以統一發文函釋、案例釋疑的，卻沒有做。","我有三個訴求：第一個，儘速發函製作案例釋疑，不要讓基層的老師無所適從。第二個，能不能有一個快速有效的申訴窗口？第三個，是不是研議、評估，讓代理教師有一個統一的年資提報系統？這三個是不是有些是可以直接做到的，而有些要評估？一個月內給本席書面報告，好不好？"],["主席：好，請教育部提供書面報告，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，我想委員所關心的，都是非常合理的。事實上，我星期一也在板橋跟北部的這些基層老師座談，我接著還會在中部、南部跟離島的老師座談，我希望把第一線老師的許多權益，包括教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持、一個合理的支持，讓他們能夠展現專業，好好地在人才培育……"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長，也請國教署長督導一下，不要這麼官僚式的回應，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：行政的部分我們來精進，謝謝委員提醒。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：部長跟署長，請你們提供書面給范雲委員。","接著請王世堅委員質詢，王世堅，王世堅委員不在。","郭昱晴，郭昱晴委員……對不起，請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席那彭部長不想回去 彭部長就再回來吧好 那個環境部部長部長"},{"start":10.504,"end":34.284,"text":"當然是颱風造成中南部地區的石棉瓦大量的這樣的一個損毀嘛那我們在特別預算裡邊的7億多要做清運 不含處理喔 對不對就清運 就要花7億嘛 是不是這樣那環境部的統計全台目前監測到的這個屬於這個石棉瓦在屋頂上的應該將近有50萬噸50萬噸 24萬噸"},{"start":38.007,"end":38.628,"text":"20多萬噸 50萬噸嘛這是環境部的相關資料"},{"start":45.831,"end":74.316,"text":"本縣啦 在我的母縣是55,991公噸然後從兩年前一直到目前為止才清除980幾噸等於不到1乘7啦不到1乘7那我們面對石冰瓦的這個狀況要去處理最主要它是世界衛生組織公認的一級的致癌物沒有錯嘛 對不對那也從小英就任的第二年開始"},{"start":75.416,"end":91.199,"text":"等於在107年我們開始有政策要來處理這些石棉瓦那到現在已經114年已經過了7年時間能不能簡單說明一下總共50萬噸我們清理了幾噸包含處理大概15000多噸15000多噸算過來應該不到兩成多那你們預期的目標要把這50萬噸可以處理到結束"},{"start":103.339,"end":132.731,"text":"要分幾年要多少預算大概要兩百億啦那也報告委員因為有損壞的石棉瓦才對健康有害那我們認為現在政府的預算壓力非常的大所以我們認為是說有需要的我們政府就會來做補助所以過去每年大概有兩三億的費用來進行這樣損壞的石棉瓦才算是有害沒有損壞的石棉瓦就不會有害對 等到需要拆除的時候就一併拆除這樣"},{"start":133.811,"end":160.616,"text":"這個是後面的事情嘛那就從你對外8月25號環境部有對外說完整的石梅瓦基本上是無害的道理是一樣嘛是一致嘛但是石梅瓦經過風吹日曬可能會龜裂可能會出現有這個缺角這個都不會造成有害這個也算是在完全的石梅瓦深度無法嗎可以這麼認定嗎"},{"start":162.217,"end":171.313,"text":"對 包委員大概就是說不是 不是 不是 對不起你回答我對人家的句話是是缺角歸類的算是完整的這個屋頂的石棉瓦嗎"},{"start":172.582,"end":190.217,"text":"對 只要有裂掉或是漏水那歸裂 那個都算是有損害有損害嘛 那個就算有損害嘛 對不對對 那照理講現在我們去TEST我們去了解的掌握情況之下像這樣的狀況 佔你的50萬噸的比例是多少你有做這樣的掌握嗎"},{"start":192.099,"end":209.461,"text":"因為我們這次風災現在無人機正在飛一天大概可以飛170公頃左右針對台南嘉義的地區雲林我們預計未來也會再飛目前我們現在重新再算因為現在是逐步的淘汰假設沒有損害是逐步淘汰假設沒有損害對不對"},{"start":210.362,"end":234.403,"text":"但是你們的定義裡面就是說如果現在屋頂看起來是好好的但也沒有去看它是不是有龜裂也沒有去看它是缺角那我們還是認定它是完美的 完整的這個市面屋啊所以就不優先處理嘛就不優先 在這次不優先處理部長你講這句話你應該是一個很精準做事情非常積極的一個部長這樣講話是不夠精準這樣是會有問題的啦對不對"},{"start":236.665,"end":260.745,"text":"難道你一定要等到有像這樣當作是颱風造成整個屋頂被吹翻了我們才去做後續的清理動作這緩不濟急啊或許會為死而完啊不應該是這麼處理嘛而且你的定義喔你的定義叫做完整的失眠屋瓦並無危害環境部持續宣導妥善處理嚴格稽查任意棄置這是你們講的 八月二十二號講的嘛對不對"},{"start":262.006,"end":276.102,"text":"對啊我剛剛講的你怎麼去認定那個屋頂沒有歸列那個屋頂沒有缺角只要歸列缺角就說你部長你剛剛所講的他就不是一個完整的這個死免的屋瓦嘛對不對沒錯沒錯那要不要處理對要處理要處理嘛啊怎麼處理"},{"start":277.243,"end":292.483,"text":"基本上每一個縣市環保局他們都有一些清運的量那你可以跟他去做申請那基本上清運的費用就是我們政府會來...我知道 部長但是如果照剛剛我依照雲林縣的案例講給你聽坦白講啦這100年都沒辦法處理完啦"},{"start":296.288,"end":316.248,"text":"全50萬噸在你部長可能不曉得要放幾噸之後還是一樣沒辦法處理完成那如果是這個情況之下我們中南部的百姓每天生命頂著世界衛生組織公認的一起出來那環境部立場是什麼環境部的基於做的是什麼"},{"start":317.878,"end":336.885,"text":"環境部目前只負責清運跟末端的處理那其他各部會包含教育部有學校的停車場包含經濟部管的工廠包含農業部管的畜牧業的這些廠房很多的時空卡早已歸類缺角要不要處理"},{"start":339.072,"end":349.718,"text":"這個大家都要來編列相關的經費來做拆除還有很多的民航難道要等到這次颱風吹了一堆火土的時候才要積極的面對處理嗎"},{"start":351.533,"end":365.761,"text":"所以我要求部長跟財政部因為房屋稅財政部跟地方要去做溝通內政部針對民房經濟部針對工廠農業部針對畜牧的廠房再來教育部針對學校的這些停車場去檢查到底有沒有歸類到底有沒有缺角是不是完整無壞的司法部長你才可以去講這些話不然這種話講出來你會傷到"},{"start":378.393,"end":380.316,"text":"一個月內一個星期內召集一個月內提出解決之道 可以嗎好 我們來試看看好 謝謝謝謝建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1463,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時56分）謝謝主席。彭部長不想回去，彭部長就再回來吧！"],["主席：請環境部部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長，丹娜絲颱風造成中南部地區的石綿瓦大量損毀，我們在特別預算裡編了七億多要做清運，不含處理喔！光清運就要花7億，是不是這樣？"],["彭部長啓明：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：環境部統計全臺目前監測到在屋頂上的石綿瓦應該將近有50萬噸。"],["彭部長啓明：50萬噸、24萬棟。"],["劉委員建國：50萬噸分布在二十多萬棟，這是環境部相關資料。在本縣我的母縣是5萬5,991公噸，從兩年前一直到目前為止，才清除九百八十幾噸，等於不到一成七！我們面對石綿瓦的狀況要去處理，最主要因為它是世界衛生組織公認的一級致癌物，沒有錯嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：從小英就任的第二年開始，等於在107年，我們開始有政策要處理這些石綿瓦，到現在114年，已經過了7年時間，能不能簡單說明一下，總共50萬噸，你們清理了幾噸？包含處理。"],["彭部長啓明：大概一萬五千多噸。"],["劉委員建國：一萬五千多噸算下來應該不到兩成多。"],["彭部長啓明：對，應該不到兩成，一成左右。"],["劉委員建國：你們預期的目標，把這50萬噸處理到結束，要分幾年？要多少預算？"],["彭部長啓明：大概要200億，也報告委員，因為有損壞的石綿瓦才對健康有害，現在政府的預算壓力非常大，我們是認為有需要的，政府就會來做補助，過去每年大概有2、3億的費用來進行這樣的補助。"],["劉委員建國：損壞的石綿瓦才算是有害，沒有損害的石綿瓦就不會有害？"],["彭部長啓明：對，等到需要拆除的時候，就一併拆除。"],["劉委員建國：不，這個是後面的事情，8月25號環境部有對外說完整的石綿瓦基本上是無害，這道理是一樣嘛？是一致嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯，對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：但是石綿瓦經過風吹日曬可能會龜裂、可能會出現缺角，這個都不會造成有害，這個也算是完整的石綿瓦、石綿屋瓦嗎？可以這麼認定嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，大概就是說……"],["劉委員建國：對不起，你回答我對的那句話，是缺角、龜裂的算是完整屋頂的石綿瓦嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，只要有裂掉、漏水或是龜裂，都算是有損害，可能有健康風險。"],["劉委員建國：那個就算有損害嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：照理講，現在我們去test，我們去了解、掌握情況之下，像這樣狀況，占50萬噸的比率是多少？你有沒有掌握？有做這樣的掌握嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這次風災現在無人機正在飛，一天大概可以飛170公頃左右，針對臺南、嘉義的地區，雲林我們預計未來也會再飛，目前我們正在重新再算，因為假設沒有損害，現在是逐步淘汰……"],["劉委員建國：假設沒有損害，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是你的定義是，如果現在屋頂看起來是好好的，但有沒有去看它是不是有龜裂、有沒有看它是不是缺角？我們還是認定它是完整的石綿屋瓦，所以就不能優先處理？"],["彭部長啓明：這次不優先處理。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你講這句話……你應該是一個很精準且做事情非常積極的一個部長，這樣講話不夠精準，這樣是會有問題的啊！難道你一定要等到有像丹娜絲颱風造成整個屋頂被吹翻了，我們才去做後續的清理動作，這緩不濟急啊！或許會為時已晚，不應該是這麼處理嘛！而且你的定義說完整的石綿屋瓦並無危害，環境部持續宣導妥善處理，嚴格稽查任意棄置，這是你們8月25號講的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：我剛剛講的，你怎麼去認定那個屋頂沒有龜裂，那個屋頂沒有缺角？只要龜裂、缺角就誠如部長你剛剛所講的，它就不是一個完整的石綿屋瓦，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯、沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：那個你要處理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，要處理。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，每一個縣市環保局，他們都有一些清運的量，你可以跟他去做申請，基本上清運的費用就是我們政府會出。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，部長，但是如果照剛剛我說的雲林縣的案例，坦白講，這樣100年都沒辦法處理完，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：全國50萬噸，部長可能不曉得換了幾任，還是一樣沒辦法處理完成，如果是這個情況之下，我們中南部的百姓，每天上面頂著世界衛生組織公認的一級致癌物，環境部的立場是什麼？環境部的積極作為是什麼？環境部目前只負責清運跟末端的處理，其他各部會，包含教育部有學校的停車場，包含經濟部管的工廠，包含農業部管的畜牧業的廠房，很多石綿瓦早已龜裂、缺角，要不要處理？"],["彭部長啓明：這個大家都要編列相關的經費來做拆除……"],["劉委員建國：還有很多的民房，難道要等到下次颱風吹得一蹋糊塗之後，才要積極來面對處理嗎？所以我要求部長跟財政部，因為房屋稅，財政部跟地方要去做溝通；內政部針對民房；經濟部針對工廠；農業部針對畜牧的廠房；再來，教育部針對學校的這些停車場去檢查到底有沒有龜裂，到底有沒有缺角？是不是完整無害的石綿瓦？部長，你才可以去講這些話，不然這種話講出來，你會傷到……一個星期內召集，一個月內提出解決之道，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們來試看看。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝建國委員，謝謝部長。因為石綿瓦確實是一個很辛苦、很難辦的事情，我覺得可能要借助跨部會的協助。","接著請陳秀寳、陳秀寳、陳秀寳委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","許宇甄、許宇甄、許宇甄委員不在。","今天登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢。","現在進行預算的提案處理，請議事人員宣讀今日審查案的審查項目跟提案，共62案，預計宣讀的時間是40分鐘，宣讀完畢以後大概是2點40分，我們要進行協商，如果沒有預算提案的機關單位，可以先行安靜的離開。","一、預算數：","二、提案："]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝好 環境部部長委員好部長好"},{"start":25.717,"end":53.219,"text":"在2020年當時因為政府就是在積極發展太陽能嘛那很多人對於太陽能光電板的回收可能有疑慮啦所以環保署當時有發新聞稿一直不斷對外強調這光電板的回收機制非常的好不會造成什麼環境的污染然後有一個SOP啦特別是還有提到說會去跟業者收一筆回收清理費用這是光電業者是交給經濟部的"},{"start":54.54,"end":70.576,"text":"我想先問一下這個回收清理費用的用途是什麼假如這個錢那這個錢是用在哪他如果正常22或25年排出之後那個業者他可以跟跟我們去申請這個錢那個錢由這個回收基金一K瓦一千塊來取代"},{"start":72.057,"end":86.459,"text":"所以是押金的概念嗎這個錢交給經濟部之後經濟部會把這個錢拿來用對 經濟部幫忙代收對 代收之後咧然後錢怎麼用我們就要付給這個回收的資源的這個廠商他在處理這樣的工作"},{"start":86.926,"end":101.708,"text":"啊 付給回收清理對 就是說他要送最後你說最後結束 最後的處理案場結束之後是由環保 環境部負責他們要來跟我們提出申請然後來請款那我們經由這樣的管道跟這個能源署請款這個費用那"},{"start":103.07,"end":121.198,"text":"現在的問題是他們很多案場是沒有到二三十年嘛直接風災關係就被吹走了嘛那這筆錢就不能用是不是不行用他們必須要當成是自己的廢棄物那當然啦他因為已經有的已經繳了可能三年五年所以他接下來如果還要再鋪新的光電板他就不用繳了是這個意思還要還要還是要繳"},{"start":123.18,"end":133.5,"text":"現在應該是能源署跟我們這邊有一個協議應該是說他如果繳了三年那300塊那個費用那可以來抵或是怎麼樣這個其實現在已經在最後的這個磋商的階段了"},{"start":134.26,"end":162.853,"text":"不是 我的意思是說就像我們剛剛在講的圓玉這家廠商嘛他的光碟板被抽走被吹走他現在不處理嘛那如果最後啦環境部必須要幫他處理的話是可以用這筆錢嗎還是不行基本上不會所有的我們政府不會幫他出一毛錢那這個回收費用不是他繳的嗎他繳他大概只有繳幾年而已那幾年的費用呢可能部分那幾年的部分或許現在如果能源署認定的話就可以退回給他"},{"start":163.413,"end":192.322,"text":"又要重新開始如果說他要重新開始的話沒有到20年部分按照比例退給他所以這筆錢也可以當這個還是請能源署回答好不好因為他有繳一筆錢嘛這筆錢要先扣著嘛不然到時候你如果萬一他最後不給你錢政府如果幫他處理不給你錢然後這筆錢先扣著委員他現在他要去處理他都必須找處理的廠商去簽約那是他們自己的事情你現在大家講就是說他不處理假如他不處理"},{"start":192.802,"end":215.556,"text":"沒關係我先把我的問題問完等一下一起講啦好不好等一下一起講因為現在廠商就不處理你們現在就是用開罰單的方式嘛就是一張三百萬一張三百萬現在已經罰六百萬九百萬了委員現在是最後三十三十三個廠商只有現在最後一個對在旁邊那他呢已經被我們罰了總共九百萬九百萬嘛不是我部長我覺得很奇怪是政府都沒有更積極作為可以讓他來處理嗎"},{"start":217.017,"end":235.626,"text":"委員這是我們用盡非常積極的沒有問題 一直講完了因為像這一家原育公司其實你去查你可以發現他們在台灣這個同一個負責人他有非常多的能源公司有包括一大堆像什麼盛群什麼東海而且資本額都不低有的還一億多"},{"start":236.306,"end":252.693,"text":"那這些廠商他勢必也要跟政府去申請他後續的光電啊或是暗場部分都沒有辦法跟這個負責人有比較強硬的手段去跟他講就要趕快處理嘛造成環境的問題這是我第一個問題因為今天主席控制時間比較精準第一個問題"},{"start":253.894,"end":282.055,"text":"那第二個問題是如果抓就是擺爛因為看起來就是要擺爛嘛從一開始環境部說一兩個禮拜七月多那時候一兩個禮拜可以解決到現在已經八月快底了然後後來剛剛我聽到最新的數字又變成九月多那九月多會不會又變成十月多他就變成一個無法處理的廢棄物垃圾在那邊假設政府最後進行處理的話那你有沒有先對他要假扣押或者是採取比較強制手段否則你幫他處理萬一他最後不付錢"},{"start":282.856,"end":296.017,"text":"那就變成全民買單耶報告委員我們台灣是一個法治的國家雖然你說的我很想這樣做但是我們必須按照法令一步一步的動現在已經走到最後的階段你說的我們也有在準備當中請委員放心你說要準備什麼"},{"start":296.926,"end":325.22,"text":"你說的剛剛說假扣押或怎麼樣的動作我們都有準備什麼時候會到什麼階段開始他現在在提出他的這個清理的計畫那我們現在在審核當中如果過的話他自己承諾是9月5號對那如果真的沒有到的話那我們政府就要出手了出手的時候就會同時進行假扣押是不是到時候再進我們會請教我們的律師如何再進行但是我相信這家公司他其實最近有表示出積極的態度我們還是給他一點機會OK 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1413,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時51分）麻煩請環境部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請環境部部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好，在2020年當時因為政府積極發展太陽能，很多人對於太陽能光電板的回收可能有疑慮，所以環保署當時有發新聞稿一直不斷對外強調，光電板的回收機制非常好，不會造成什麼環境的污染，它有一個SOP，特別還有提到，會跟業者收一筆回收清理費用，這是光電業者繳給經濟部的，我想先問一下這個回收清理費用的用途是什麼？繳了這個錢，這個錢是用在哪？"],["彭部長啓明：它如果正常22或25年排出之後，業者可以跟我們去申請這個錢，這個錢由回收基金1kW1,000塊來取代。"],["葉委員元之：所以是押金的概念嗎？這個錢繳給經濟部之後，經濟部會把錢拿來怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：經濟部幫忙代收……"],["葉委員元之：代收之後錢怎麼用？"],["彭部長啓明：我們就要付給回收資源的廠商，他再做處理的工作。"],["葉委員元之：付給回收清理？"],["彭部長啓明：對，就是說他最後要……"],["葉委員元之：你說最後案場結束之後，是由環境部負責處理那些光電板？"],["彭部長啓明：他們要來跟我們提出申請，然後來請款，我們經由這樣的管道跟能源署請款這個費用。"],["葉委員元之：現在的問題是，他們很多案場是沒有到二、三十年，因為風災的關係就直接被吹走了，這筆錢就不能用了，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：不行用，他們必須要當成是自己的廢棄物，當然因為有的已經繳了3年、5年……"],["葉委員元之：所以它接下來如果還要再鋪新的光電板，它就不用繳了，是這個意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：還要、還要。"],["葉委員元之：還是要繳？"],["彭部長啓明：現在應該是能源署跟我們這邊有一個協議，應該是說，它如果繳了3年300塊，這個費用可以來抵或是怎麼樣，其實現在已經在最後磋商的階段了。"],["葉委員元之：不是，我的意思是說，譬如像我們剛剛在講元昱這家廠商，它的光電板被吹走，它現在不處理，如果最後環境部必須要幫它處理的話，是可以用這筆錢嗎？還是不行？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上不會，我們政府不會幫它出一毛錢，它必須要去清理……"],["葉委員元之：這個回收費用不是它繳的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：它大概只有繳幾年而已，那幾年的費用，可能部分，或許現在能源署認定的話，就可以退回給他……"],["葉委員元之：還要退回給它？"],["彭部長啓明：又要重新開始。"],["葉委員元之：如果說它要重新開始的話，沒有到20年的部分按照比例退給它？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。這個還是請能源署回答好不好？"],["葉委員元之：不是，我覺得因為它有繳一筆錢嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：這筆錢要先扣著嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對啊！當然要扣著。"],["葉委員元之：不然到時候萬一它最後不給你錢，政府如果幫它處理，它不給你錢，這筆錢就先扣著啊！"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會，委員，現在它要去處理，它都必須找處理的廠商去簽約，那是他們自己的事情。"],["葉委員元之：問題現在大家講的就是它不處理，假如它不處理？沒關係，我先把我的問題問完，等一下一起講，好不好？因為現在廠商就是不處理，你們用開罰單的方式嘛，就是一張300萬、一張300萬，現在已經罰900萬了。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，33個廠商，現在只有最後一個堆在旁邊，它已經被我們罰了總共900萬。"],["葉委員元之：不是，部長，我覺得很奇怪是政府都沒有更積極的作為可以讓它來處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們已經非常積極了！"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，我把問題一次講完，因為像這家元昱公司，其實你去查，你可以發現他們在臺灣，同一個負責人他有非常多的能源公司，有包括一大堆，像盛群、東海，而且資本額都不低喔！有的還一億多啊！這些廠商勢必也要跟政府申請它後續的光電或是案場部分，對負責人都沒有辦法有比較強硬的手段去跟他講，叫他趕快處理嗎？造成的環境問題，這是我第一個問題，因為今天主席控制時間比較精準，這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，如果他就是擺爛，這看起來就是要擺爛，從一開始環境部說一、兩個禮拜，7月多的時候說一、兩個禮拜可以解決，到現在已經8月快底了，剛剛我聽到最新的數字又變成9月多，9月多會不會又變成10月多？它就變成一個無法處理的廢棄物垃圾在那邊？假設政府最後進行處理的話，你有沒有要先對它假扣押，或者是採取比較強制的手段？否則你幫它處理了，萬一它最後不付錢，就變成全民買單耶！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們臺灣是一個法治的國家，雖然你說的我很想這樣做，但是我們必須按照法令一步一步的動，現在已經走到最後的階段，你說的我們也有在準備當中，請委員放心。"],["葉委員元之：你們有準備什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：你剛剛說假扣押或怎麼樣的動作，我們都有準備。"],["葉委員元之：到什麼階段開始？"],["彭部長啓明：它現在提出清理的計畫，我們在審核當中，如果過的話，它自己承諾是9月5號，如果真的沒有做到的話，我們政府就要出手了。"],["葉委員元之：出手的時候就同時進行假扣押，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：到時候我們會請教律師如何來進行，但是我相信這家公司，其實它最近有表示出積極的態度，我們還是給它一點機會。"],["葉委員元之：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接著請黃健豪、黃健豪，黃健豪不在。","鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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我想請環境部部長彭部長環境部"},{"start":23.557,"end":37.386,"text":"部長你好這個是非常多網友應該說全民都非常關心的議題因為您前幾天說如果這個廠商沒有辦法把嘉義的這些光電板清完環境部就要接手了那"},{"start":38.767,"end":56.485,"text":"我們會覺得說奇怪清光電板的速度有夠慢但是我的臉書下面有網友回文啊他就說環境部出手又要拿人民的納稅錢去處理結果呢環境部的小編馬上回他小編回的速度有夠快說"},{"start":57.546,"end":78.025,"text":"不要輕信轉傳未經查證的影片環境部會持續查核如果對於惡意造假散佈不實資訊者將於用司法單位嚴正的追查那我想問一下彭部長有認為我跟這位網友是不認識的但他覺得自己很委屈我也想知道說部長您是認為他在造謠嗎"},{"start":81.073,"end":102.003,"text":"委員我也很委屈啊因為你說的不是事實啊我也很委屈啊因為光電板我們很認真在處理可是委員你說我還要用公眾的錢我也受到委屈啊我們看下一張因為大家很關心你的接手是什麼意思所以我們今天也把接手講清楚你要怎麼接手"},{"start":103.463,"end":120.155,"text":"當然你現在有提追加預算嘛所以我們都有看你的追加預算也有到你環境部問每一筆是用在什麼地方但是因為你已經公開在新聞上說環境部會接手那接手當然需要錢啊錢從哪裡來你必須要跟大家講啊"},{"start":120.575,"end":139.917,"text":"好 委員我們是依據廢清法我們會進行代位求償如果我們它一直都到9月5號前沒有清我們會走到那一步那個要代位求償不是我們政府要出錢的那我們編在這個16E裡面主要是處理實棉主要的一個這最主要的廢物還有廢棄物沒有包含光電板跟各位委員保證"},{"start":142.144,"end":162.063,"text":"你的接手的意思是說環境部會先出錢找別的廠商沒有出錢我們會安排因為報告委員這家公司他的資本額我們也查過他的這個手上的錢還夠用很夠用所以我們基本上不會用到政府一毛錢就是要求他一定要限令要清除完畢就對了"},{"start":163.018,"end":181.367,"text":"好這個廠商因為之前我們有跟你去搞考察我們辦公室有跟你去考察你也很誠實的說有一家回收光電板的你覺得是不惜血本的在做很認真另外一家你說很不積極很擺爛這個也是你考察的時候自己說的"},{"start":182.327,"end":196.355,"text":"他都已經不在乎被你罰300萬因為他把這個所謂光電板的浮台繳稅違反廢清法 他都已經這樣了速度也很慢 因為你之前這麼多委員關心的時候 你說"},{"start":197.335,"end":215.247,"text":"一個半月一個多月可以清除完但事實證明你早上回答賴世保委員的是9月5號啊你早上回答的日期我們按照時間他要必須例如說明天還要再開罰一張300萬但是他提出一個清理計畫書我們現在正在審核嘉義縣環保局在審核他們預計9月5號可以完全清完所以一個那麼不在乎被你開罰兩次的廠商你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償是這個意思嗎"},{"start":227.315,"end":254.096,"text":"如果他9月5號做不到那當然我們政府一定要出手他破壞環境所以你保證你追的回來委員這個是他們一定要再做這個事情那他們基本上還未來還要在台灣做生意他們一定要負起這個責任的他如果要付的話早就早就已經付了他現在已經被你罰兩次他認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心但是告訴我們我們已經罰了整個他已經900萬了後面就是300萬一張的罰單"},{"start":256.018,"end":269.615,"text":"好 那我們就也對你有信心希望9月5號第一9月5號可以確實的清完 對吧對 也拜託委員不要說讓我說很像我又在誣蔑我們又在說花政府的錢沒有這回事也請委員能夠幫我澄清"},{"start":271.698,"end":296.283,"text":"你說環境部要接手你就把他講清楚就好了這個是如果當天是有媒體記者訪問說萬一沒有清完怎麼辦那沒有清完當然依照費心法我們要來代位求償除完要跟他索討啊本來就是這個樣子再來這也是另外您說八月底之前可以給我們的當初每一片光電板都會有序號也就是他的身分證證號"},{"start":298.143,"end":314.395,"text":"可是很多人就已經在莫名其妙的地方找到光點板有的卡在樹上有的在池塘裡面有的已經留掉了現在不只是清不完你八月底就已經清不完了我想問你八月底之前你覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎"},{"start":315.896,"end":339.112,"text":"因為當初您說失蹤的你也會告訴我如果他年限還沒到卻因為一個風災已經廢棄的需要回收的你也會告訴我假使他是真的到年限了你也會告訴我我們需要這個數據啊可以 這個現在那個能源署跟環境部有一個平台那他們正在登錄當中等到這個 因為13萬片13.5萬片實在太多了我們會給他們一點點時間希望把那個數據早一點看到"},{"start":344.355,"end":365.809,"text":"好那裡面會包括比如說他年限還有很久但是因為這次風災受損我們可以有這個資料嗎當然也有一些是已經掉到水裡面那個碼已經掉了我也有看到這樣那我們也有要求他要秤重要量有多少必須有證明出來好所以八月底會有可能要到九月中九月中好我再修改好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1378,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（13時44分）謝謝主席。我想請環境部部長彭部長。"],["主席：環境部。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你好。這個是非常多網友，應該是說全民都非常關心的議題，因為您前幾天說如果廠商沒有辦法把嘉義這些光電板清完，環境部就要接手了，我們會覺得奇怪，清光電板的速度有夠慢，但是我的臉書下面有網友回文，他就說環境部出手，又要拿人民的納稅錢去處理；結果環境部的小編馬上回他，小編回的速度有夠快，說不要輕信、轉傳未經查證的影片，環境部會持續查核，對於惡意造假、散布不實資訊者，將與司法單位嚴正追查。那我想問一下彭部長，我跟這位網友是不認識的，但他覺得自己很委屈，我也想知道部長您是認為他在造謠嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我也很委屈啊！因為你說的不是事實啊！我也很委屈啊！因為我們很認真在處理光電板，可是委員，你說我還要用公眾的錢，我也受到委屈啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：我們看下一張，因為大家很關心你的「接手」是什麼意思，所以我們今天也把「接手」講清楚，你要怎麼「接手」？當然你現在有提追加預算，所以我們都有看你的追加預算，也有到環境部問每一筆是用在什麼地方，但是因為你已經公開在新聞上說環境部會接手，接手當然需要錢啊！錢從哪裡來？你必須要跟大家講啊！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們是依據廢清法，我們會進行代位求償，如果他一直到9月5號前沒有清，我們會走到那一步，那個要代位求償，不是我們政府要出錢的。我們編的這個16億裡面，主要是處理石綿，這是最主要的，還有廢棄物，沒有包含光電板，跟各位委員保證，光電板是零！"],["陳委員菁徽：你的「接手」的意思是說環境部會先出錢，找別的廠商……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有出錢、沒有出錢，我們會安排……"],["陳委員菁徽：找別的廠商……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這家公司的資本額，我們也查過它手上的錢很夠用，所以我們基本上不會用到政府一毛錢，就是要求它限期一定要清除完畢就對了。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為之前我們辦公室有跟你去考察，你也很誠實的說，有一家回收光電板的，你覺得是不惜血本的在做，很認真，但另外一家，你說很不積極、很擺爛，這個也是你考察的時候自己說的，它都已經不在乎被你罰300萬，因為它把光電板的浮臺絞碎，違反廢清法，它都已經這樣了，速度也很慢，因為之前這麼多委員關心的時候，你說一個半月、一個多月可以清除完，但事實證明……你早上回答賴士葆委員的是9月5號啊！你早上回答的日期……"],["彭部長啓明：對，按照時間，明天還要再開罰一張300萬，但是它提出一個清理計畫書，我們現在正在審核，嘉義縣環保局在審核，他們預計9月5號可以完全清完。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以一個那麼不在乎被你開罰兩次的廠商，你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償，是這個意思嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果它9月5號做不到，當然我們政府一定要出手，因為它破壞環境。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你保證你追得回來？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個是他們一定要做這個事情，基本上未來他們還要在臺灣做生意，他們一定要負起這個責任的。"],["陳委員菁徽：它如果要負的話早就已經負了，它已經被你罰兩次了。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，它認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心，但是告訴委員，我們已經罰了它900萬，後面就是300萬一張的罰單。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我們也對你有信心，第一，希望9月5號可以確實的清完，對吧？你早上講的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，也拜託委員不要讓我覺得很像又在誣衊我們、又在說花政府的錢，沒有這回事，也請委員能夠幫我澄清。"],["陳委員菁徽：你說環境部要接手，你就把它講清楚就好了。"],["彭部長啓明：這個是當天有媒體記者訪問萬一沒有清完怎麼辦？沒有清完，當然依照廢清法，我們要來代位求償，處理完要跟它索討啊！本來就是這個樣子啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：好。再來，這也是另外您說的8月底之前可以給我們的，當初每一片光電板都會有序號，也就是它的身分證證號，可是很多人就已經在莫名其妙的地方找到光電板，有的卡在樹上、有的在池塘裡面、有的已經流掉了，現在不只是清不完，8月底就已經清不完了，我想問你，8月底之前你覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎？因為當初您說失蹤的也會告訴我，如果它年限還沒到，卻因為風災已經廢棄的、需要回收的，你也會告訴我，假使它是真的到年限了，你也會告訴我，我們需要這個數據啊！"],["彭部長啓明：可以，現在能源署跟環境部有一個平臺，他們正在登錄當中，因為13萬片……"],["陳委員菁徽：13.5萬片！"],["彭部長啓明：13.5萬片實在太多了，我們會給他們一點點時間，希望可以早一點看到那個數據。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，裡面會包括，比如說，它的年限還有很久但是因為這次風災受損，我們可以有這個資料嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：每一個都有，當然也有一些是已經掉到水裡面那個「碼」已經掉了，我也有看到這樣，我們有要求他要秤重，量有多少必須有證明出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以8月底會有？"],["彭部長啓明：可能要到9月中。"],["陳委員菁徽：9月中，好，我再修改，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","接著請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請教育部部長好 教育部部長委員好"},{"start":32.791,"end":44.969,"text":"部長好 有關於葉秉成次長在姓平案件涉及洩密的這件事情您多次表達歉意葉次長也表達愧疚你們確實應該要感到愧疚"},{"start":52.578,"end":73.369,"text":"這個案件它已經不只是一個個案了部長我不知道你知不知道現在引發了基層教師很多的反彈憤怒跟擔憂包括了性平學生團體大家擔心的是這一次的案件的處理會不會幫性平法的保密制度打開一個破口大開後門開倒車為什麼"},{"start":79.315,"end":88.14,"text":"因為在一般性平案件裡面的保密我們對基層的教師是以最高標準在要求但是這一次你們對於你們教育部的高官卻是用最寬鬆的標準在縱容"},{"start":100.532,"end":123.88,"text":"性評會調查結果也給我們教育部建議嘛對不對部長給我們兩個建議第一有關違反個資法的部分因為不屬於性評會調查範圍請教育部調查有關於政務人員有沒有違反公務人員服務辦法服務法的問題不屬於性評會的權責請教育部調查但是啊部長我想請問"},{"start":129.485,"end":132.789,"text":"這兩個事情 個資法 公務人員服務法教育部不知道自己可以調查嗎這個案件發生多久了還要由性評會的外部委員來告訴你們教育部說你必須要啟動行政調查"},{"start":150.188,"end":179.231,"text":"而我們教育委員會的委員包括我在內我們在今年4月就已經發文給教育部當時我們就要求教育部必須盡速啟動調查程序如今查證屬實設有違反個人資料保護或行政倫理之情節進行懲處所以4月的時候你們就可以啟動行政調查了"},{"start":181.001,"end":182.723,"text":"當時有啟動嗎 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謝謝有請經濟部次長 台電董事長還有國土署長"},{"start":18.111,"end":44.248,"text":"經濟部次長還有鄭文森董事長吳興修署長委員好這次丹尼斯颱風跟728豪雨確實其實它來之前高雄市也是全力待命因為高雄市去年經歷了凱米 康瑞跟山陀爾其實也是損失非常慘重民眾倒是放了七天假其中有一天很特別叫修復家園假"},{"start":45.256,"end":72.806,"text":"那去年高雄市也跟行政院申請了超過40億的災後的這個復原的所有的經費感謝行政院去年的協助今年現在來趕快加速要來省這個丹納斯600億的這些重建經費我想除了水利設施農業補助經濟弱勢還有修復交通住宅還有最重要的電力那剛剛也有很多委員也有提到這個"},{"start":75.086,"end":89.675,"text":"這些經濟補助的不足等等的我也是覺得這一次從整個嘉南平原進去那我看到我們立法院幾位同事包含今天代會員主席還有郭國文委員 林俊憲委員還有蔡奕宇委員"},{"start":90.535,"end":108.763,"text":"整天泡在水裡泡了兩個禮拜還有我找了國土署吳興修署長也找了兩個禮拜都在台南所以這次都很辛苦各位在第一線來協助所有的災民我在這邊想要先就叫鄭文森董事長"},{"start":110.334,"end":122.649,"text":"這一次台電的修復裡面我知道有大量大量全國或者是其他的包商都來支援協助當然修復的期間非常的長這一個"},{"start":125.663,"end":149.182,"text":"台風它還是有它 比如說高雄比較嚴重或者是這一次台南嘉義嚴重我想請教你這一次調度的狀況大概是全國都調過來還是有怎麼樣調度的狀況可以說明一下好 那個 跟委員報告因為台風那時候是從西邊來那一開始就是我們大概是台中以南都警戒"},{"start":150.816,"end":174.942,"text":"那最後確定其實從巴掌溪附近進來以後其實嘉義台南最嚴重那高雄的狀況是他有災情 北高雄有災情那高雄是等到執行完畢才到嘉南那中部有下來嗎中部有北部有嗎北部也有 北部是最早支援的因為北部沒有災情"},{"start":175.987,"end":203.197,"text":"好 謝謝那這一個調度未來會成為常態嗎其實做的最完善就是從去年三坨河開始我跟委員報告去年三坨河因為他在我想民眾需要聽這個啦因為大家知道台電很辛苦大家也知道這一個區域的人他只能做到什麼程度他24小時不要睡覺坐在路邊吃便當的畫面大家都看到但是我們怎麼調度我希望可以讓民眾也清楚好 我跟委員報告其實就是我們都會先看颱風路徑的預判"},{"start":205.356,"end":211.458,"text":"那今年的這一個颱風其實當然是颱風比較特別它原來路徑是沿著台灣海峽往北走所以會在哪個地方會不會登陸會在哪個地方登陸我們比較沒有那麼確定所以我們是颱風深夜登陸隔天我們才開始出動狀況就是哪裡災情比較嚴重我們就支援哪邊那我坦白跟您說雲林 嘉義 台南是最早被支援的"},{"start":231.543,"end":248.369,"text":"那都是北部下來支援那除了台電自己的這些人力之外所有公班包含你講的包商跟委員報告就是其實我們那些電感導斷那些重機其實包商手上的設備比台電多"},{"start":249.87,"end":263.89,"text":"所以都是包商來協助幫忙支援這個是下一個我要請教你的問題我在去年針對男子產業園區他們要裝設161千伏特的便電站專用為什麼就是你也知道"},{"start":266.641,"end":291.696,"text":"這些半導體產業它的電網必須要是非常牢固的那也跟今天很多人在請教你的問題一樣有沒有全面地下化或者是這些目前這個江南平原的要怎麼改善的這些計畫我看我們兩年分別編了50億要給台電來做改善目前的方案跟計畫會是什麼而全國會是什麼"},{"start":293.199,"end":317.553,"text":"我先說一下就是您關心那個楠梓科技產業園區它那個地方是這樣它以前是普通高壓那您剛才講161KV是特高壓所以我們基本上是要把它升級這個確定要做沒有 那個是另外一個議題我只是說針對這種科技產業園區的電網是需要這樣那時候也整合了很多民生用電把它整合出去那把民生用電另外做一個整理對 就分流對"},{"start":318.433,"end":346.696,"text":"那現在對於江南平原對於災區我們明年度後年度都50億的經費我們打算要怎麼做那個我們會先因為這次導斷主要是在阻幹線就它影響範圍比較大我們會先把阻幹線的電網在它的陸基比較好會先地下化那如果災情多好沒問題那我是要請吳組長上來是要跟你說感謝辛苦啦這次台南讓你整合了剛剛部長講的三萬四千戶"},{"start":347.838,"end":350.504,"text":"謝謝你們 辛苦了 謝謝感謝前進指揮所 謝謝謝謝 謝謝大家 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主席有點累了那就麻煩環境部彭部長經濟部和次長環境部跟經濟部次長"},{"start":18.976,"end":19.176,"text":"廖長江議員"},{"start":49.076,"end":78.556,"text":"那對不起我們看得出來就是在這次的風災裡面光電板的傷害非常非常的明顯而且非常的巨大也引起民眾蠻多的恐慌尤其到後面好像清潔的部分一直沒有辦法如期的完成所以對民眾來講壓力是蠻大的那部長彭部長也針對這個未來這個光電板出現了漏洞應該要有什麼好的方式來做處理"},{"start":79.296,"end":107.137,"text":"那漏洞在哪里改善的方向在哪里大家可以从这个荧幕上很容易看到包括副部长所提出来一个日常缺理的缺失风灾防护标准的不足灾害应变的不足还有灾后清理缺乏计划等等当然一个补偿也是后续要处理的部分这个都是未来我们要面对这个漏洞如何来改善的地方那这个当然需要从各个部会各个面向一起来处理"},{"start":107.797,"end":122.49,"text":"我們也了解在這個過程裡面事實上真的是需要進行一次的總體檢這個總體檢當然工程應該不會太小包括當地的地方政府還有如果有牽涉到"},{"start":123.331,"end":152.176,"text":"台糖的這些土地的利用的話這個其實大家相關單位都應該要一起來協助所以針對這部分我們有一個比較具體的建議希望能夠讓各個部會來參考包括說在這個過程裡面要檢討修正合約範本跟準則一開始的時候一定經濟部這邊都有跟相關的廠商訂了合約來明確責任跟處置那第二部分就是總體檢要涉及跨部會的"},{"start":152.916,"end":169.627,"text":"方面呢務必要妥善的協調分工包括地方政府中央政府等等的都應該要共同來努力處理第三個就是檢討光電板災害處理合理的費用以及這個納災的可能性因為一開始我們沒有想到風災會這麼樣的強烈"},{"start":172.289,"end":185.404,"text":"導致之前納栽堡好像並沒有考量進來往後如果持續有這個問題的話應該要怎麼具體的處理這部分可能到時候再麻煩確認一個時間點讓所有的部會"},{"start":188.907,"end":207.541,"text":"委員會都能夠讓委員們共同來參考那最後一項就是有關於這個加強災後環境整潔跟這個疫情的防治最近也有報導知道說高雄已經出現了本土的登革熱那氣溫還是非常的高所以再加上這個雨量多"},{"start":208.382,"end":235.591,"text":"等等相關的這些風險傳染的風險都非常的高所以要麻煩彭部長針對於三個部分來加強第一個就是加強宣導跟協助清除積水的容器第二部分就是提供必要的資源來落實環境清潔的消毒第三個就是要協助完善的這個清潔防護設備不管是跟疾管署還有跟地方政府都共同的來努力以上這個兩個問題再麻煩部長跟次長一起來說明"},{"start":237.925,"end":259.196,"text":"謝謝王委員這個說明其實跟我們看到的現象其實是差不了多元所以未來我們會對這個光天業者會朝這幾個具體建立的一個方向我們來跟這個光天業者來做一些要求那包括一些納保或是"},{"start":260.016,"end":274.333,"text":"呃要求他在合約上面要有呃承擔一些這個未來有一些這個災災損的部分的這些責任啊那我想這個部分我們都可以來跟環境部啊還有相關的部位來配合是是好"},{"start":274.753,"end":303.363,"text":"我們會全力的配合這個經濟部來對於光電特別是他的清除管理的計畫他有沒有落實我們會協助他們來進行這樣的體檢那另外剛剛委員提到的這個環境衛生特別是登革熱的這個疫情我們現在很積極我們都有派人到各地去巡查跟地方環保局在合作那這個噴灑的部分衛生的部分也積極在進行不過其實現在因為今年像昨天也有幾例在發生我們會特別特別的再來加強這樣的工作謝謝"},{"start":304.502,"end":330.532,"text":"那請問這個總體檢預計要花多少時間我們可以得到報告跟委員報告我們現在水面的部分那個已經都檢查完了大概應該好我跟委員報告一下那個水面性暗藏我們大概都檢查過了那缺失就跟剛委員報告差不多那我們會給他兩個月時間去做改善我們會去復檢以上報告兩個月是好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1206,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（13時6分）謝謝主席，主席有點累了。麻煩請環境部彭部長、經濟部何次長。"],["主席：請環境部跟經濟部次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，次長好。今天有兩個問題來請教，我相信今天一定很多委員都有提出類似的問題，我把我的問題全部一次說明以後，再麻煩兩位一起來做回答。第一個部分是有關光電板的災後應變處置，跟一些清潔復原機制，還有大型光電板的總體檢，這是第一部分。第二部分是災後的環境清潔跟防疫。","我們看得出來，在這次的風災裡面，光電板的傷害非常非常的明顯，而且非常的巨大，也引起民眾滿多的恐慌，尤其到後面好像清潔的部分一直沒有辦法如期完成，所以對民眾來講壓力是滿大的。彭部長也針對未來光電板出現的漏洞，提出應該要有什麼好的方式來處理，漏洞在哪裡，改善的方向在哪裡？大家可以很容易從這個螢幕上看到，包括彭部長所提出來的日常處理缺失──風災防護標準的不足、災害應變的不足，還有災後清理缺乏計畫等等，當然補償也是後續要處理的部分，這個漏洞要如何改善都是未來我們要面對的地方，這個當然需要從各個部會、各個面向一起來處理。我們也了解，在這個過程裡面，事實上真的是需要進行一次的總體檢，當然這個總體檢工程應該不會太小，包括當地的地方政府，還有如果有牽涉到台糖這些土地的利用的話，其實大家跟相關單位都應該要一起來協助。","針對這部分我們有一個比較具體的建議，希望能夠讓各個部會來參考，包括在這個過程裡面，要檢討、修正合約範本跟準則。一開始的時候經濟部一定都有跟相關的廠商訂了合約，來明確責任跟處置。第二部分就是總體檢涉及跨部會的方面務必要妥善協調分工，包括地方政府、中央政府等等，都應該要共同來努力處理。第三個就是檢討光電板災害處理合理的費用，以及納災保的可能性，因為一開始我們沒有想到風災會這麼強烈，導致之前納災保的部分好像並沒有把它考量進來，往後如果持續有這個問題的話，應該要怎麼具體的處理？這部分到時候再麻煩確認一個時間點，讓所有的部會、委員會和委員們都能夠共同來參考。","最後一項有關於加強災後環環境整潔跟疫情的防治，最近也有報導說高雄已經出現了本土的登革熱，氣溫還是非常的高，再加上雨量多等等，相關的這些讓傳染的風險都非常的高，所以要麻煩彭部長針對於三個部分來加強：第一個，就是加強宣導跟協助清除積水的容器；第二部分，提供必要的資源落實環境清潔消毒；第三個，要協助完善清潔防護設備，不管是跟疾管署，還有跟地方政府都要共同的努力。以上這兩個問題，再麻煩部長跟次長一起說明。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝王委員，王委員這個說明其實跟我們看到的現象差不了多遠，所以未來我們會對光電業者朝這幾個具體建議的方向，跟光電業者做一些要求，包括一些納保，或是要求它未來在合約上面要承擔一些災損部分的責任，我想這個部分我們都可以來跟環境部還有相關的部會來配合。"],["彭部長啓明：我們會全力的配合經濟部，特別對於光電的清除管理計畫有沒有落實，我們會協助他們來進行這樣的體檢。另外，剛剛委員提到的環境衛生，特別是登革熱的疫情，我們現在很積極，都有派人到各地去巡查，跟地方環保局來合作，並且噴灑、衛生的部分也積極在進行。不過，其實今年……像昨天也有幾例發生，我們會特別再加強這樣的工作，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：請問總體檢預計要花多少時間，然後可以讓我們得到報告？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們現在水面的部分已經都檢查完了……"],["吳副署長志偉：我跟委員報告一下，水面型案場我們大概都檢查過了，缺失就跟剛剛委員報告的差不多，我們會給它兩個月時間去做改善，我們會去複檢，以上報告，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。","接著請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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魯明哲委員魯明哲委員魯明哲委員不在請邱毅英委員邱毅英委員邱毅英委員不在請黃建斌委員黃建斌委員黃建斌委員不在請徐富奎委員質詢"},{"start":26.751,"end":39.185,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們經濟部核次長 台電曾董事長 農業部陳部長好 請經濟部核次長 台電董事長那還有什麼 農業部陳部長"},{"start":42.631,"end":60.003,"text":"是大家辛苦了那我想這一次我們還是要針對這個整個這個台灣的這個電纜的一個韌性的部分還是要請我們經濟部跟台電要多幫忙那我想曾董事長這個去年我們屏東遭逢好幾個颱風之後"},{"start":61.184,"end":81.152,"text":"我想第一時間我也約他到我們這個林邊家東跟我們養殖的一個漁民座談那當時大家關心的議題就是電纜地下化的一個設置的一個時程跟一個方式那當時我知道當然曾董事長這個有一些的思考的想法跟做法啦那尤其是"},{"start":82.152,"end":101.292,"text":"今年我看今年8月16號我們卓院長也正式在對外有講說請我們這個經濟部跟台電針對全國電纜地下化的先行評估的作業我想有做這樣的一個宣示那請問一下市長或董事長目前我們規劃的期程怎麼進行"},{"start":102.213,"end":118.612,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說那個電網強盛的事情我們一直我們會更加速的來做那其實我們在沿海餘溫的一些做法上其實去年我們做了一些新的變化我想你應該有感受到就是最近這次颱風來"},{"start":119.793,"end":142.425,"text":"其實更換過的電感其實就有擋住颱風意思是說我們用不同的方法做但整體的規劃早上我有承諾過我們會在兩個月內提一個初步的整體的規劃出來但它不是全部地下化就整個強韌因為包含我們這次提的特別預算也是一部分地下化一部分我們加強電感的強度來減少導斷"},{"start":145.006,"end":170.826,"text":"董事長因為前幾天我們的鄉親還在問我這個問題那當然因為他們看到小琉球也感謝台電的支持小琉球已經先出來了小琉球全線都全島都電纜地下化那包含我們的平俄公路在蘇貞昌院長的時候我想這個都經歷颱風的肆虐之後都確保我們的用電安全所以大家都期待這樣一個電纜地下化的案子能夠持續推動但是當然沿海區域的一個這個低窪的一個問題還有所謂的一個維修的問題"},{"start":173.608,"end":191.935,"text":"當初你有 我覺得有問題就要提啦至於說那個企產怎麼規劃 路程怎麼樣去進行我想大家都可以來配合 但是一定要有進度出來啦要不然特別回到訪台 大家就歡樂啦 就走路啦那尤其是我們這個養殖區這個目前台17線也在進行這個規劃了嘛我想這部分我們都要持續來做對 台17線是我們要規劃的"},{"start":199.324,"end":212.052,"text":"董事長因為我知道我們後來包含訪寮也有一些的案子但是後來因為你們說經費不足那如果現在經費到位之後原本一些規劃的案子能不能持續在推動進行我們整個台17線都會整個來規劃訪寮大莊這邊那個 東海這邊那個因為上一次是應該是三坨的時候有傾斜"},{"start":221.226,"end":239.272,"text":"那傾斜的那一個部分的狀況我們如果可以來但是因為它旁邊就是餘溫餘溫通常地下水會比較高但是如果可以坐在路的中間不要靠邊上那這個我們要跟公路單位做一些協調這個我已經請交通部陳部長跟公路局長來協助了我們趕快把介面搭起來趕快來做處理好的好 謝謝那我們請陳部長"},{"start":244.916,"end":267.542,"text":"部長我想您的業務很繁重那當然就是我還是特別提到上次我在諮詢院長的時候我們還是要求這個整個治山防洪要整個都在您的部裡面包含從林保署也好水保署也好到這個整個我們區排的部分我想有很多需要農業部大力的支持部長能不能承諾一下我們整個在"},{"start":268.522,"end":291.54,"text":"整個治山防洪的這個部分能夠做一個有效的一個系統的一個整治不要切香腸的處理方式我跟委員報告就是在這次的特別預算裡面我們針對了大概治山防洪農水路還有一些波地土石流防災的部分大概編了大概71到72億然後我們年度的預算跟治山防洪有關的年度預算大概是120億所以我們不會說現在的"},{"start":295.223,"end":306.812,"text":"現在問題是因為風災了就用特別預算其他的不用所以我們會把我們整體的經費做有效的運用然後是以災區的這些相關的土質流崩塌的還有需要去處理的部分我們來優先處理"},{"start":308.255,"end":325.675,"text":"這個我們也會請我們縣政府來做配合把整個從山區到我們平地要做一個完整的處理對 我們其中的我剛才說的我們在這支裡面大概有將近76.82億是跟農水路或是跟置山防蚊有關的是會請地方政府來執行"},{"start":326.816,"end":355.776,"text":"另外我還要提一個問題我們放寮北市寮有一個海水供應站是我們屏東縣最早的供應站但是輸用30年了最近因為丹納斯颱風造成這個取水管線斷裂然後大量的泥沙也造成抽水馬達一個損害這部分我們請縣政府提報來補助一下我們的經費好我再請我們的那個應該是水路署去看那個漁業署去看一下看那個經費到底規模多大我們再來看怎麼樣處理"},{"start":356.496,"end":358.158,"text":"好那我最後一個問題要請我們內政部劉部長謝謝陳部長劉部這兩個問題兩個部會都要作出處理"},{"start":371.031,"end":388.084,"text":"兩位部長那個我們橫春有個龍鑾潭它是我們一個很重要的一個濕地也是一個後兩的一個棲地但是它也是一個橫春半島這個滯洪的一個很重要的一個水域因為這一次的颱風我們發現因為它的原本的淤積太過嚴重"},{"start":389.025,"end":418.131,"text":"造成它的這個容量有限所以造成恆春市區大淹水那我們有希望在不影響生態的狀況之下因為這也是農水署很重要的一個灌溉的一個來源能不能由墾管處跟農水署怎麼樣來搭配在不影響到生態狀況之下應該要做有效一個清淤然後能夠協助這樣子一個防洪治洪的一個功能我想這個部分是我們農田水利署在負責管轄特別是在當作灌溉用的所以這個部分的清淤我想我們農"},{"start":419.111,"end":421.874,"text":"農水組這邊會來處理然後需要其他部位的話我們會請其他部位來支援對 那個沒有問題我們可以協助"},{"start":428.975,"end":449.427,"text":"那我想這個騎乘因為我們有一些猴鳥的這個生態的他們考量所以我們怎麼樣把騎乘抓好然後在不影響這個生態保育的狀況之下這一定要做要不然我這強降雨這個瞬間雨量那麼大恆春市區大淹水這個小桃不利啦這要特別拜託一下那我也找時間把相關部位都找來我們一起來會勘協調一下"},{"start":452.19,"end":459.72,"text":"好謝謝謝謝護魁謝謝那個農業部長如果是在這一次的災情都那個蓄水池都可以透過那個龍水水"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1142,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時51分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部何次長、台電曾董事長、農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請經濟部何次長、台電董事長，還有農業部陳部長。"],["何次長晉滄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：大家辛苦了！這次針對整個臺灣電纜韌性的部分，還是要請經濟部跟台電多幫忙。曾董事長，去年屏東遭逢好幾個颱風之後，第一時間，我也約你到林邊、佳冬跟我們的養殖漁民座談，當時大家關心的議題，就是電纜地下化的設置時程和方式，我知道當時曾董事長是有一些思考的想法和作法，尤其在今年8月16號，卓院長也正式對外宣示要求經濟部跟台電針對全國電纜地下化工程進行先期評估作業，所以我想請問次長或董事長，目前規劃的期程是怎麼進行？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，有關電纜強韌的計畫，我們會更加速來做，其實在沿海漁塭的一些作法上，去年我們做了一些新的變化，我想你應該也有感受到，就是最近這次颱風來襲，更換過的電桿就有擋住颱風，意思就是我們用不同的方法做。但整體的規劃，早上我有承諾過，我們會在兩個月內提一個初步的、整體的規劃出來，但它不是全部地下化，是整個強韌計畫，因為包含這次我們提出的特別預算，也是一部分地下化，一部分加強電桿強度，以減少倒、斷的問題。"],["徐委員富癸：前幾天我們鄉親還在問我這個問題，因為他們看到小琉球的情形，也感謝台電的支持……"],["曾董事長文生：小琉球已經先做了。"],["徐委員富癸：對，小琉球全島都電纜地下化了，包含屏鵝公路在蘇貞昌院長的時候也加強措施，在經歷颱風肆虐之後，都確保了我們的用電安全，所以大家都期待這樣一個電纜地下化的案子能夠持續推動。當然沿海區域有低窪的問題，還有所謂維修的問題，但是我覺得有問題就要提出來，至於期程怎麼規劃、路程怎麼進行，我想大家都可以配合，但一定要有進度出來，不然每次遇到颱風，大家就很煩惱、很害怕，尤其是養殖區，目前臺17線已經在進行規劃，我想這部分應該都要持續來做。"],["曾董事長文生：對，臺17線是我們要規劃的。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，我知道包含枋寮等也有一些案子，但後來因為你們說經費不足而停止，現在如果經費到位，原本一些規劃的案子能不能持續再推動進行？"],["曾董事長文生：臺17線都會整個規劃。"],["徐委員富癸：那枋寮的大庄和東海這邊呢？"],["曾董事長文生：上一次應該是山陀兒的時候有傾斜，傾斜那個部分如果可以來……但因為它的旁邊就是漁塭，漁塭通常地下水位比較高，但如果可以做在路的中間，不要靠邊上，應該是可行，這部分我們要跟公路單位做一些協調。"],["徐委員富癸：這部分我已經請交通部陳部長跟公路局長來協助了，我們趕快把介面搭起來，趕快來處理。"],["曾董事長文生：好的。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。接下來要請教陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，你的業務很繁重，但我還是要特別提到，上次我質詢院長的時候，要求整個治山防洪要統整在你農業部裡，包括從林保署、水保署，到整個區排部分，我想有很多需要農業部大力支持的地方，在此，部長能不能承諾整個治山防洪的部分，要做一個有效的、系統的整治，而不要以切香腸的方式處理？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，在這次特別預算裡面，針對治山防洪、農水路，還有一些坡地土石流防災部分，我們大概編列了71到72億，然後跟治山防洪有關的年度預算，大概是120億，所以我們不會因為現在的問題是風災的緣故，就用特別預算，其他的不用，我們會就整體經費做有效的運用，然後災區這些相關土石流部分，還有需要處理的部分，我們會優先來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：這個我也會請縣政府配合，從山區到平地，要做一個完整的處理。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我剛才說的，我們在這次裡面大概有將近76.82億是跟農水路或是跟治山防洪有關的，會請地方政府來執行。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，另外我還要提一個問題，我們枋寮、北勢寮有一個海水供應站，是我們屏東縣最早的供應站，但是使用30年了，最近因為丹娜斯颱風造成取水管線斷裂，然後大量的泥沙也造成抽水馬達的損害，這部分我們請縣政府提報，請部長幫忙一下來補助我們的經費。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我再請我們的漁業署去看一下，看那個經費到底規模多大，我們再來看怎麼樣處理。"],["徐委員富癸：好。那我最後一個問題要請我們內政部劉部長，謝謝。陳部長留步，這個問題兩個部會都要一起處理。","兩位部長，我們恆春有個龍鑾潭，它是我們一個很重要的溼地，也是一個候鳥的棲地，但是它也是恆春半島滯洪的一個很重要的水域。因為這一次的颱風，我們發現它原本的淤積太過嚴重，造成它的容量有限，所以造成恆春市區大淹水，我們希望在不影響生態的狀況之下，因為這也是農水署很重要的一個灌溉的來源，能不能由墾管處跟農水署怎麼樣來搭配，在不影響到生態狀況之下，應該要做有效的清淤，然後能夠協助這樣子的一個防洪、滯洪的功能？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分是我們農田水利署在負責管轄，特別是當作灌溉用的，所以這個部分的清淤，我想我們農水署這邊會來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：對，但是因為我們確實有生態保育的問題……"],["陳部長駿季：需要其他部會的話，我們會請其他部會……"],["徐委員富癸：也需要墾管處來做協助。"],["劉部長世芳：這個沒有問題，我們可以協助。"],["徐委員富癸：好。那我想這個期程，因為我們有一些候鳥生態的考量，所以我們怎麼樣把期程抓好，然後在不影響生態保育的狀況之下，這一定要做，不然永遠……強降雨的瞬間雨量那麼大，恆春市區大淹水，水都來不及排掉，這個要特別拜託一下。那我也找時間把相關部會都找來，我們一起來會勘協調一下。"],["主席：謝謝富癸。農業部長，如果是在這一次的災情，蓄水池都可以透過農水署來清淤的話，那我們那邊也很多，我們再把資料送上來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我想我們這個部分，特別是一些農林灌溉的蓄水池，如果需要去清淤的話，我想我們會來……看委員有什麼樣，我們可以來處理。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長。","我們接著請高金素梅，高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","吳琪銘，吳琪銘、吳琪銘委員不在。","接著我們請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","吳琪銘","許宇甄","黃建賓","陳昭姿"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1147601_00002"}}},{"id":"163683","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163683","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a65060e496a993a7200a18dc12f595704a3d6b5df1ef73adb8c5ec6d484a9071cdc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:43:56 - 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犧牲了這麼多這個宮殿沒有辦法這麼快所以我覺得不是說你們回去研議你們就要爽爽快快的答應我們啊不然後面的事情又糟糕沒人要去扣了啦真的啦 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甚至颱風來幾乎等於是整個村子幾乎是沒辦法進出"},{"start":179.21,"end":204.844,"text":"因為安全性的考量不敢讓他進出啦那變成整個就會影響到他幾乎是被封在那個地方那唯一能夠改善的方法大概只有興建橋樑而已那我希望這一塊請部長跟主委啦因為主委負責總統籌的也請部長能夠加速來這個興建啦好不好讓他們這個新的橋能夠來來進速來興建完成要不然的話恐怕在未來的"},{"start":206.565,"end":229.438,"text":"只要遇到好大雨只要遇到颱風幾乎大概這個橋段都要封的啦那幾乎等於他們進出都受到很大影響所以這個很優先啦所以再拜託部長有納進來來拜託主委再大力的督促加快整個工程的進行這對納馬蝦原鄉會非常的重要啦那再來我是不是也問一下農業部好了不好農業部這邊也請教一下"},{"start":231.122,"end":259.156,"text":"這次我們在看到很多地方的它的一些災情的時候其實它是整個野溪包括周邊的一些整個坍塌下來所導致的狀況我在這個位置上面它其實本來是一條溪流啦那基本上是整個完全兩側的部分幾乎是整個坍塌掉了部長這未來用什麼方式比較好的一個處理我想我們在這次特別預算裡面針對農水路還有這些土石流造成的這些波地的一些我們都有便利預算去處理"},{"start":260.296,"end":275.692,"text":"那整個預算的編列如果是在土石流的部分大概是51億左右然後如果說包括如果說水利設施的話大概25億所以加起來大概有70多億來處理這個部分所以後續我們會根據地方政府報也好或是我們"},{"start":276.573,"end":303.229,"text":"不同的委員有建議的部分我們都會去限干然後公共公眾委員會之前也針對縣市政府的需求提出來了所以這個部分我們會盡快來處理因為像這個部分看到現在兩邊的連房子幾乎都淹沒了所以我覺得這一塊面對這種極端氣候的話這個未來要能夠再來優先來思考做一些處理因為這邊的里長跟我說每次只要好大雨大概幾乎都這樣"},{"start":304.39,"end":331.209,"text":"蘇郡挖完了再挖堆到旁邊去然後如果沒有清蘇下來的話那一樣在那個地點那一樣下次豪大雨來一樣就繼續沖刷掉所以整條野溪完全失去了功能好不好 這個我希望部長把這幾個地點這六龜的幾個地點把它能夠確切的在現場做一些處理我們希望能夠有效的去根治這些問題好 這個部分我想我們會盡快的來看怎麼樣現勘的部分以後再來因為極端氣候的因素現在幾次的颱風"},{"start":334.53,"end":353.114,"text":"不管是整個這一次颱風從台南嘉義上來造成重大的一些損害都很異常包括好大雨也造成很多的一些中南部的農損的一些狀況我也希望未來這一塊能夠依照當時賴總統所講的原則從寬從幽從速從簡的原則來處理這次有幾個我也拜託部長加速來處理"},{"start":358.515,"end":383.761,"text":"農民的感受就很深刻啦你遇到災難的時候像有一個是已經截止了要這個要登記截止了然後我們請部長就延後那包括有幾個是沒有納進來的我們請部長之後能夠加快地方政府的速度啦甚至由中央直接認定而做處理那個對於農民都很有感那現在極端氣候下我們也希望未來在這樣的施政上面能夠更加的有感好不好"},{"start":384.532,"end":402.019,"text":"我想跟委員報告這次從丹大寺颱風到楊柳颱風整個農業的災損如果是樹暴的部分已經將近43億那推估實際的損失大概是超過100多億所以我們是用同理心的角度去協助來農民能夠快我們就盡量來處理"},{"start":404.36,"end":432.759,"text":"謝謝那最後一個山區的部分原鄉的山區它的簡易自來水這次也受到很大的一些重創這經濟部這邊我也希望這一塊他們三個區都已經有報計畫上來的我也希望能夠加速來協助如果連基本的民生的自來水這個至少該給予他們協助的要盡快來完成好不好沒有水沒有自來水可用是很麻煩的一件事情好不好這我也希望計畫都報上來的請經濟部能夠大力來支持好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":434.462,"end":435.524,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員那下一位請賴慧媛委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1089,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（12時36分）謝謝召委，我先請一下包括經濟部、農業部跟公共工程委員會，好嗎？"],["主席：好，公共工程委員會還有經濟部次長及農業部部長。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委辛苦了，次長、部長辛苦了。這一次728的雨下得相當大，光在高雄，8天就累積了2,800毫米這樣的雨量，這樣的雨量其實比之八八風災也幾乎是毫不遜色，我認為在面對這種極端氣候下，恐怕未來政府在這塊要給予更多的支持，要有更新的思考，包括不管是人員的安全或者是道路、橋梁等等，在極端氣候下的思考，恐怕都必須要有更多的新思維。我們也看到了整個山區的雨量相當巨大，包括像昨天高雄臨時又下了一場很大的豪雨，在現在這種極端氣候下，我們面對的挑戰都越來越大，也更加考驗政府的應變能力，我知道最近幾位都很辛苦。","我先問一下主委好了，主委最近也負責很多山區的部分，交通部也可以一起上來，像很多山區的部分，這次遇到很多豪大雨，一些重要的道路跟橋梁，特別是那瑪夏的民生橋，主委應該也都了解問題，當時其實是有比較多的淤積，變成現在只要遇到豪大雨，幾乎等於是完全被封掉了，我問一下主委，包括交通部長，這個橋的部分會納入到這一次的整個預算裡面來給予新建的經費嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，這次交通部有一個道路與交通的部分，是不是請部長來跟你說明？"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，部長講一下好了，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分有放進來了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有放進來了，預定什麼時候可以來動工跟改建？"],["陳部長世凱：我們都已經進入設計階段了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：大概什麼時候可以開始來動工？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我會後再提供給委員，好嗎？"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個儘快加速，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為現在那瑪夏這邊很辛苦，這個橋面主委跟部長應該也都看過，橋面淤積得非常厲害，所以只要豪大雨，甚至颱風來，等於整個村子幾乎是沒辦法進出，因為安全性的考量，不敢讓他們進出，變成他們幾乎就是被封在那個地方，唯一能夠改善的方法大概只有新建橋樑而已，我希望這一塊請部長跟主委，因為主委負責統籌，也請部長能夠加速來新建，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：讓他們這個新的橋能夠儘速新建完成，要不然的話，恐怕未來只要遇到豪大雨、只要遇到颱風，這個橋大概都要封啦，等於他們進出都受到很大影響，所以這個很優先，再拜託，部長有納進來，也拜託主委再大力地督促，加快整個工程的進行。"],["陳部長世凱：會加速來進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這對那瑪夏原鄉非常重要。","再來我也問一下農業部，農業部這邊也請教一下，這次我們在看到很多地方的災情，其實是整個野溪包括周邊整個坍塌下來所導致的狀況，我站在這個位置上面，它其實本來是一條溪流，基本上兩側的部分幾乎是整個坍塌掉了，部長，這未來可以用什麼樣的方式來做比較好的處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們在這次的特別預算裡面，針對農水路還有這些土石流所造成坡地的……我們都有編列預算去處理，在整個預算的編列，土石流的部分大概是51億左右，水力設施大概是25億，所以加起來大概有七十多億來處理這個部分，後續我們會根據地方政府的提報或是不同委員有建議的部分，我們都會去現勘，然後公共工程委員會之前也針對縣市政府的需求提出來了，所以這個部分我們會儘快來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：像這個部分坍塌下來，兩邊連房子幾乎都淹沒了，我覺得面對這種極端氣候，未來要優先思考怎麼樣做一些處理。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為這邊的里長跟我說，每次只要豪大雨大概幾乎都這樣，疏浚挖完了再推到旁邊去，如果沒有清疏下來的話，在那個地點下次豪大雨來了一樣又繼續沖刷掉，所以整條野溪完全失去了功能。我希望部長能夠把六龜的這幾個地點確切地在現場做一些處理，我們希望能夠有效地去根治這些問題。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們會儘快地現勘以後看怎麼樣來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，因為極端氣候的因素，關於最近幾次的颱風，不管是這次颱風從臺南、嘉義上來造成一些重大的損害，這都很異常，包括豪大雨也造成很多中南部的農損狀況，我也希望未來這一塊能夠依照當時賴總統所講的原則，依從寬、從優、從速、從簡的原則來處理。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這次有幾個我也拜託部長加速來處理，農民的感受就很深刻，一遇到災難的時候，像有一個是已經要登記截止了，然後我們請部長延後，包括有幾個是沒有納進來的，我們請部長之後能夠加快地方政府的速度，甚至由中央直接認定來做處理，那個對於農民都很有感。現在在極端氣候下，我們也希望未來在這樣的施政上面能夠更加的有感，好嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，這次從丹娜絲颱風到楊柳颱風，整個農業災損在速報的部分已經將近43億，推估實際的損失大概超過一百多億，所以我們是用同理心的角度去協助農民，能夠快我們就儘量來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。","最後一個，原鄉山區的簡易自來水這次也受到很大的重創，關於經濟部這邊，這塊他們3個區都已經有報計畫上來了，我也希望能夠加速來協助，如果連基本的民生自來水……至少該給予他們協助的要儘快來完成，好不好？沒有自來水可用是很麻煩的一件事情，這部分計畫都報上來了，我也希望經濟部能夠大力來支持，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：OK，好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘代）：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":429.53346875000005,"end":430.12409375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.33,"text":"謝謝召委那我們是不是有請農業部部長那以及這個環境部部長以及財政部次長"},{"start":22.196,"end":32.192,"text":"好 財政部次長 財政部部長有到喔農業部部長 還有環境部部長經濟部次長 財政部沒有財政部不用 經濟部次長"},{"start":38.015,"end":59.494,"text":"好 我先就教這個農業部那這一次的丹納斯颱風那這麼強的風我們的溫網市可以說倒很多尤其是在嘉義大概是倒最多的那因為有這麼多的溫網市的倒塌所以現在的重建工程農業部也提供了要有補助八成"},{"start":60.254,"end":78.131,"text":"但是在這個補助八成現在有一個比較麻煩的就是有一個時間點的問題就是現在農民他急著想要把他的溫室打起來他打起來他現在就可能要辦貸款他需要貸款可是他也需要這些補助但是補助"},{"start":78.792,"end":98.965,"text":"金額還沒有下來等於他要先走貸款那這樣的話等於說他在沒有收入的這段期間他就要先負擔貸款的利息因為他要辦這個免息貸款事實上也要時間所以他等於這段時間是有支出利息的但是他要付給他如果要打他就要付頭期款"},{"start":99.505,"end":117.621,"text":"所以我想要跟部長請教說這個補助可不可以做分期的方式或者是可以先幫他去支付頭期款的方式讓想要加速復建的農民可以馬上達到說第一筆錢然後可以去進入這個他的溫室的一個復建"},{"start":120.563,"end":138.748,"text":"我謝謝委員對這個溫室 農民的溫室這個部分我們內部也討論過就是只要有核定簽約的話我們就可以付第一筆錢一半 幾乎這樣一半的話就去付給他們簽約以後分期的概念那這個分次的時間點大概會多久呢就是他簽約的時候就"},{"start":140.1,"end":146.004,"text":"因為他有工期嘛他簽約的當下就可以先發發布好 那就可以解決我剛剛講的一個問題然後第二個部分就是貸款的部分我們會盡快的啦盡快的去協助他不會讓他說完全沒錢然後也沒辦法施工這樣子對 部長那貸款也有貸款的一個狀況因為現在過去可能都是傳統型的一個溫室就是阿公的"},{"start":161.035,"end":185.231,"text":"他現在要升級變成力霸型的所以他大概會從90萬提升到180萬每分地但是他們現在貸款的普遍還是認為說要以他原始的你賭什麼你就是交什麼去貸款可是事實上農民想要提升我的設備所以我想要從90提升到180萬就是變成力霸型更穩固的"},{"start":185.751,"end":212.484,"text":"那在這樣的一個貸款他就沒有辦法第二個如果我們可以來做這樣的突破的話我們現在跟農會辦理滴滴貸款都必須拿到災害證明後的15天但是現在15天看起來都已經已經快要到或甚至已經超過了那這方面有辦法做專案來突破嗎我想跟委員報告我已經把它突破了第一個部分就是他舉個例子他原來是塑膠噴網式但是他蓋的時候想要變成粒霸型的"},{"start":215.285,"end":227.554,"text":"那後續我們的貸款就是他想要升級的那個那個樣態去做一些核貸對 他要升級對 升級的核貸這也是我們鼓勵的就是他設置升級然後第二個部分就是只要拿到災害證明我覺得我也把那個15天取消因為現在公所也真的很忙是所以他拿到的負荷量也很大農會的負荷量也是好大對 也是所以我會把這個15天取消只要他拿到災害證明"},{"start":244.307,"end":250.93,"text":"然後因為他們有時候會去調整工期嘛工期現在工班也缺乏第二個是他要在短短的15天內判斷他要貸款可能三四百萬這個對青龍來說也是一個很大的一個我會把這15天把它像昨天我先講我會把它延長甚至於不要在半年之內去申請就可以不要說15天一個月這樣子因為現在太多案子了謝謝部長那我們是有請經濟部"},{"start":273.277,"end":298.762,"text":"好 委員好經濟部 次長就是說這一次丹納斯事實上整個復電的一個工程台電非常的辛苦包括台電裡面的員工以及台電的外包就是它的外包商的這一些員工我是希望我們經濟部可以針對這麼辛苦復電的台電給他們特別專案的獎金次長 這個經濟部有辦法來做一個承諾嗎"},{"start":301.443,"end":313.318,"text":"我想我們會跟台電這邊來討論一下確實台電同仁這一次非常辛苦動員許多的人力跟物資來全力搶救我想我們會跟台電這邊一起來討論第二點"},{"start":316.061,"end":323.086,"text":"因為現在次長你有跟我一起在我們嘉義食安大樓有開了所以事實上有好多的企業尤其是店民的店家他們在這一次的風災中他們可能銅棒倒了裡面的東西有風吹壞了所以事實上他們有損害那經濟部也很好開了一個過去沒有的就是針對招牌或是他的維生工他營利器具損壞的話就補助他一萬塊"},{"start":342.259,"end":367.23,"text":"市長我跟市長呼籲一下因為我在地方聽到的這個要去申請的數量是多的所以我們希望你們在匡列預算的時候在這一筆對於這一些商家的補助勒應該要多匡列一些不要到時候這個預算不足然後又變成很多有申請的最後是申請不到這一點我覺得要注意一下好不好好 謝謝委員好 那環境部再給我一分鐘就好"},{"start":368.01,"end":375.173,"text":"好 彭部長部長 我們有很多農業廢棄物現在農業廢棄物我們如果有分類農模地模有分類的話它是屬於可回收的這個是不跟農民收費但是如果是一般的農業廢棄物基本上它是要收費的"},{"start":389.079,"end":416.656,"text":"但是我們知道這次倒了就落後了所以基本上他的農牧都含下的六公安碗是都攬作會事實上對於急於慶運急於要復耕的農民來說這部分的負擔很大所以我們覺得部長應該跟各地方公所讓地方公所提出需求我們看公所要怎樣可以來具體協助農民那這一筆錢我們再是不是用特別預算來支出也不要再增加公所的負擔這樣可以嗎"},{"start":417.517,"end":427.939,"text":"好 各位沒問題 這個我們公所需求來跟我們來聯繫都可以好 那我之後會再開幾個協調會就麻煩部長在環境部的人可以派來我們嘉義來協助我們沒問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1051,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時29分）謝謝召委，我們是不是有請農業部部長、環境部部長以及財政部次長？"],["主席：好，財政部次長，財政部部長有到喔！農業部部長還有環境部……"],["蔡委員易餘：經濟部次長，財政部沒有。"],["主席：財政部不用，經濟部次長。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我先就教農業部，這一次的丹娜絲颱風這麼強的風，我們的溫網室可以說倒很多，尤其嘉義大概是倒最多的，因為有這麼多的溫網室倒塌，所以現在的重建工程，農業部也提供了要補助八成。但是這個補助八成現在有一個比較麻煩的時間點的問題，就是現在農民急著想要把他的溫室搭起來，他現在可能就要辦貸款了，他需要貸款，可是他也需要這些補助，但是補助金額還沒有下來，等於他要先走貸款，這樣的話等於他在沒有收入的這段期間就要先負擔貸款的利息，因為他要辦免息貸款事實上也要時間，所以他等於這段時間是有支出利息了，但是他如果要搭，他就要付頭期款。所以我想要跟部長請教，這個補助可不可以做分期的方式或者是可以先幫他去支付頭期款的方式，讓想要加速復建的農民可以馬上達到說他就有第一筆錢可以去進行溫室的復建。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，對於農民的溫室這個部分我們內部也討論過，就是只要有核定簽約的話，我們就可以將第一筆錢幾乎將近一半付給他們。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以就是分次給他……"],["陳部長駿季：簽約以後分期的概念。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個分次的時間點大概會多久呢？"],["陳部長駿季：就是他簽約的時候，因為他有工期，只要簽約……"],["蔡委員易餘：OK，他簽約的當下就可以先幫他付？"],["陳部長駿季：對，簽約完就可以來。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，就可以解決我剛剛講的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：然後第二個部分就是，貸款的部分我們會儘快去協助他，不會讓他完全沒錢，然後沒辦法施工。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。部長，貸款有貸款的狀況，因為過去可能都是傳統型的溫室，就是錏管的，他現在要升級變成力霸型，所以他大概每分地會從90萬提升到180萬，但是他們現在貸款普遍還是認為要以他原始的倒什麼就是照什麼去貸款，可是事實上農民要提升他的設備，所以他想要從90萬提升到180萬，就是變成更穩固的力霸型，這樣的貸款他就沒有辦法。第二個，如果可以做突破的話，現在跟農會辦理低利貸款都必須在拿到災害證明後15天內申請，但是現在15天看起來都已經快要到或甚至已經超過了，這方面有辦法做專案來突破嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我已經突破了，第一個部分，舉個例子，他原來是塑膠溫網室，但是他蓋的時候想要變成力霸型，後續我們的貸款就是他想要升級的樣態做核貸。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他要升級嘛！以他升級後的樣態。"],["陳部長駿季：對，升級的核貸也是我們鼓勵的，就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：那很好，確實有幫助到這些青農了。"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分就是，只要拿到災害證明，我也把15天取消了，因為現在公所也真的很忙，所以他拿到的時候……"],["蔡委員易餘：公所的負荷量很大，農會的負荷量也是很大。"],["陳部長駿季：對，也是。所以我會把這個15天取消，只要他拿到災害證明，然後因為他們有時候會去調整工期，現在工班也缺乏……"],["蔡委員易餘：第一個是工期；第二個是他要在短短的15天內判斷他要貸款可能三、四百萬，這個對青農來說也是一個很大的……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我會把這15天……把它延長，甚至於在半年之內去申請就可以，不要說15天、1個月這樣子，因為現在太多案子了。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝部長。是不是有請經濟部？"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，這一次丹娜絲事實上整個復電的工程，台電非常辛苦，包括台電裡面的員工以及台電的外包，就是他外包商的這些員工，我希望經濟部可以針對這麼辛苦復電的台電給他們特別專案獎金，次長，這個經濟部有辦法做一個承諾嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我想我們會跟台電這邊來討論一下，確實台電同仁這一次非常辛苦，動員許多人力及物資來全力搶救，我們會跟台電一起來討論。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，第二點，因為次長你有跟我一起在嘉義食安大樓有開了……所以有好多的企業，尤其是店面的店家，他們在這次的風災中可能招牌倒掉，裡面的東西被風吹壞了，所以事實上他們有損害，那經濟部也很好，開了一個過去沒有的，就是針對招牌或是營利器具損壞的話補助一萬塊。我跟次長呼籲一下，因為我在地方聽到，這個要去申請的數量很多，所以我們希望你們在匡列預算的時候，對於這些商家的這筆補助應該要多匡列一些，不要到時候預算不足，然後又變成很多有申請的最後申請不到，這一點我覺得要注意一下，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：環境部，再給我1分鐘就好。彭部長，我們有很多農業廢棄物，現在農業廢棄物如果有分類，農膜、地膜有分類的話，它是屬於可回收的，這個是不跟農民收費；但是如果是一般農業廢棄物基本上是要收費的，但是我們知道這次倒掉之後，加上下雨，所以基本上他的農膜都跟那些爛泥巴混在一起，事實上對於急於清運、急於要復耕的農民來說，這部分的負擔很大，所以我們覺得部長應該跟各地方公所……讓地方公所提出需求，我們看公所要怎樣可以具體協助農民，這一筆錢我們是不是用特別預算來支出，也不要再增加公所的負擔，這樣可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好的，委員，沒問題，公所有需求來跟我們聯繫都可以，沒有問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我之後會再開幾個協調會，麻煩部長派環境部的人來我們嘉義協助我們。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒有問題，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝易餘委員。","接著我們請王美惠委員，王美惠、王美惠委員。","我們請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","吳琪銘","許宇甄","黃建賓","陳昭姿"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1147601_00002"}}},{"id":"163680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a650f06a552047dc8e4118dc12f595704a3d6b5df1ef73adb8c50b94474edbfc61895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:21:48 - 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謝謝主席 我們先請交通部跟園民會好 交通部還有我們園民會"},{"start":36.107,"end":51.9,"text":"部長 主委今天本來我們交通委員會因為我是召委今天排的考察行程就是要到我們的高雄的原鄉茂林 桃園 南馬俠去那邊考察那邊的狀況"},{"start":53.34,"end":71.766,"text":"今天我們聯席所以我們原來交通委員會的行程就取消了但是我想這個部分我們今天還是要特地再加強跟部長跟主委再重新的強調一次這個是丹奧斯颱風重建特別條例我們也謝謝賴總統"},{"start":74.847,"end":94.672,"text":"也希望說我們行政院跟立法院我們一起競速來通過這個重建的預算讓資源可以落實到地方所以首先我要求就是重寬重減迅速處理這個部分 災民的需求我想非常的重要那今天這個預算我想國民黨三黨"},{"start":96.432,"end":118.958,"text":"其實應該大家都不會反對啦 那可以迅速通過那也希望說迅速通過之後的執行能夠盡快我想說希望說這個能夠要求的那關於交通部編列的69億包括道路省道那原住民會編的是3億 連外道路的搶修我們高雄這一次其實你可以看到很嚴重"},{"start":119.918,"end":142.694,"text":"就是台20南橫東莊橋 盛進橋 明巴各路橋台27線新發公路 台28線齊六公路29線4K加500路段的還有民生橋今天當地的區長還有鄉親還有打電話給我說今天沒辦法去會館了後面還有沒有辦法在台會館我想我們這個特別條例"},{"start":144.255,"end":164.009,"text":"經費通過比較重要通過之後我想我們後續也希望說再去現場看一看那也希望說部長跟主委能夠支持那盡快來處理那另外一個就是明巴克路橋這個是我感受比較深的就是說明巴克路橋從88風災到現在地面的高度已經上升了50公尺"},{"start":166.052,"end":182.657,"text":"每一次的災害他就會再破壞一次那從交通部的角度是不是有比較遠見的一個工程的設計可以不要每一次災害然後就要破壞那又花那麼多錢這部分交通部有沒有比較好的設計"},{"start":184.711,"end":206.393,"text":"報告委員我們的設計一直都在改進當中但是大自然變化的速度很快我們在明年年底之前會完成中期的一個計畫明年年底之前的那個計畫的道路就會先完成那當然我們有長期的規劃希望他的抗災能力可以再提升對我想就是因為每次去看心裡都很痛那每次去看就發現說哇"},{"start":208.188,"end":227.723,"text":"你看已經差距人當然要勝天是很困難但是差距這50米的高度不是說你就是順著那個山坡這樣子蓋可以把它處理好的那當然在工程的難度交通部比較專業我們希望說可以設計一個比較比如說跨"},{"start":229.167,"end":243.682,"text":"跨山頭的地基加強或是怎麼樣一個設計可以不要每一次就是一有風災一有水災就產生這個明巴克路橋很大的傷害而且這個每一次搶修都會花很多錢我們有沒有辦法說遠見一點然後把這個橋樑的問題可以有"},{"start":249.96,"end":267.211,"text":"二十年的任性 三十年的任性有沒有這樣子一個概念我們任性台灣要怎麼做成功所以這個部分我也拜託交通部跟園民會這一陣子當然我們一來是遠近二來是救急救急的部分我們要趕快救"},{"start":267.951,"end":284.559,"text":"所以就是說我想這一部分我們高雄市有很多的需求希望說部長跟主委能夠盡快的支持那未來我想我們會繼續的再來要求就是說下一次的會館可能會再排也希望說大家能夠一起來參與趕快解決問題好 謝謝主席我們現在換農業部好 農業部部長"},{"start":299.096,"end":309.922,"text":"委員好謝謝部長就是農業部其實本來就有編就是救助跟利息補貼本來就有編列那我們現在又有增加76億對不對"},{"start":312.765,"end":320.934,"text":"我們總共是203億然後針對農業設施的話是100.66億那救助利息補貼是6沒關係這個細節我們就不論那麼多那我們高雄其實本來農損市政府規劃是2.2億那規劃以後丹拉斯來了後來又洋流來了"},{"start":335.589,"end":357.96,"text":"那後來連西南紀流的豪雨所以原來估計的可能還不夠尤其是我們的芭樂香蕉蓮露這個傷亡損失非常的慘重所以就是說這個部分也希望說我們高雄市的部分那個部長可以再多撥一點經費因為我們本來估計的2.2億是前面前段那後段又"},{"start":359.04,"end":385.149,"text":"還沒補完又開始又受到更大的傷害所以這部分是請部長能夠全力的來支援就是我們這一次的從救助金跟補助跟利息貸款不會因為各縣市報的金額而去分配只要有實際受損的部分我們都會來處理特別是你剛剛說的伯朗伯朗本身有一些往事有沒有那這個部分我們申請那個運往事的補助我們也是從五成提高到八成"},{"start":385.669,"end":405.475,"text":"OK我們首先謝謝農業部就是說包括邱議員包括我我們都有要求就是本來申報的現金補助可以延長那農業部也有延長這個也感謝農業部就是能夠因應現實的問題給予農民最大的協助那後續的部分我們再一次的要求就是說剛剛部長提到的"},{"start":406.996,"end":421.47,"text":"實況可以多的就不要再減了這個部分希望說我們農業部可以積極的來協助我們市政府來協助處理我們農民的災損會 我們持續會跟縣府這邊一起來合作看怎麼樣加快這個腳步OK 這個再拜託農業部多協助好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時21分）謝謝主席，我們先請交通部跟原民會。"],["主席：好，交通部還有原民會。"],["許委員智傑：部長、主委。今天本來我們交通委員會，因為我是召委，今天排的考察行程是要到高雄的原鄉茂林、桃源、那瑪夏考察那邊的狀況，今天我們聯席，所以原來交通委員會的行程就取消了。但是我想這個部分，我們今天還是要特地再加強跟部長、跟主委重新強調一次，這次丹娜絲颱風重建特別條例，我們也謝謝賴總統，他也希望行政院跟立法院一起儘速通過重建的預算，讓資源可以落實到地方，所以首先我要求就是從寬、從簡、迅速處理，這個部分災民的需求我想非常重要。今天這個預算，我想國民三黨其實應該大家都不會反對，可以迅速通過，也希望迅速通過之後的執行能夠儘快，我想說希望說這個能夠要求的。","關於交通部編列的69億包括道路、省道，原民會編的是3億聯外道路的搶修，我們高雄這一次，其實你可以看到很嚴重，就是台20線南橫、東莊橋、勝境橋、明霸克露橋，台27線新發公路、台28線旗六公路、29線4k+500路段還有民生橋。今天當地的區長還有鄉親還打電話給我說今天沒辦法去會勘了，後面還有沒有辦法再排會勘，我想這個特別條例的經費通過比較重要，通過之後，我想我們後續也希望再去現場看一看，也希望部長跟主委能夠支持，儘快來處理。另外一個就是明霸克露橋，這個是我感受比較深的，明霸克露橋從88風災到現在，地面的高度已經上升了50公尺，每一次的災害它就會再破壞一次，從交通部的角度是不是有比較遠見的工程設計，可以不要每一次災害就要破壞，然後又花那麼多錢，這個部分交通部有沒有比較好的設計？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們的設計一直都在改進當中，但是大自然變化的速度很快，我們在明年年底之前會完成中期的計畫，明年年底之前計畫的道路就會先完成，當然我們有長期的規劃，希望它的抗災能力可以再提升。"],["許委員智傑：對，因為每次去看心裡都很痛，每一次去看就發現說已經差距……人當然要勝天是很困難，但是差距50米的高度，不是你就順著山坡這樣子蓋可以把它處理好的，當然在工程的難度，交通部也比較專業，我們希望可以設計一個比如說跨山頭的地基加強或是怎麼樣的設計，可以不要每一次一有風災、一有水災就產生明霸克露橋很大的傷害，而且每一次搶修都會花很多錢，我們有沒有辦法有遠見一點，讓橋梁可以有20年的韌性、30年的韌性，有沒有這樣子的概念，不然我們韌性臺灣要怎麼做得成功？所以這個部分我也拜託交通部跟原民會，這一陣子當然我們一來是遠見、二來是救急，救急的部分要趕快救，所以我想這一部分，我們高雄市有很多的需求，希望部長跟主委能夠儘快支持，未來我想我們會繼續再來要求，下一次的會勘可能會再排，也希望大家能夠一起參與，趕快解決問題，謝謝。","主席，我們現在換農業部。"],["主席：好，農業部部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝部長。農業部其實本來就有編救助跟利息補貼，本來就有編列，我們現在又增加76億嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們總共是203億……"],["許委員智傑：總共203億。"],["陳部長駿季：然後針對農業設施的話是100.66億，那100.66億裡面其中有一部分是……"],["許委員智傑：救助利息補貼……沒關係，這個細節我們就不論那麼多。我們高雄其實本來農損……市政府規劃是2.2億，規劃以後丹娜絲來了，後來楊柳又來了，後來是西南氣流的豪雨，所以原來估計的可能還不夠，尤其是我們的芭樂、香蕉、蓮霧損失非常慘重，所以希望我們高雄市的部分，部長可以再多撥一點經費，因為我們本來估計的2.2億是前段，還沒補完後段又開始受到更大的傷害，所以這個部分是不是請部長能夠全力來支援？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們這一次救助金跟補助跟利息貸款不會因為各縣市報的金額而去分配，只要有實際受損的部分，我們都會來處理，特別是你剛才說的芭樂園，芭樂園本身有一些網室有沒有？這個部分申請溫網室的補助，我們也是從五成提高到八成。"],["許委員智傑：OK，我們首先謝謝農業部，包括邱議瑩、包括我們都有要求本來申報的現金補助可以延長，農業部也有延長，也感謝農業部能夠因應現實的問題，給予農民最大的協助。後續的部分我們再一次要求，剛剛部長提到的實況可以多的就不要再減，這個部分希望農業部可以積極協助市政府處理農民的災損。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們持續會跟縣府一起合作看怎麼樣加快腳步。"],["許委員智傑：OK，這個再拜託農業部多多協助，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["許委員智傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝智傑。","接著請陳素月，陳素月、陳素月委員不在。","我們接著請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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我簡報也沒有出來不過沒關係 我們就開始沒關係就是說我想就是針對一個丹麥斯颱風來了之後呢其實一連串在西南部降了非常非常大的一個雨量那其實我們有發現就是說歷史觀測的一個數據呢台灣降雨模式的根本性改變在過去數十年我們的總雨日總雨日呈現持續減少的趨勢特別是關於農業灌溉與地下水的部分"},{"start":60.513,"end":74.962,"text":"這個小雨日數的減幅是尤其的劇烈像每十年大概就減少了四天那是過去百年的兩倍那所以說呢台灣的氣候挑戰並不是只是水災或是旱災而是在這兩個極端系統下面的一個擺盪"},{"start":76.784,"end":97.293,"text":"系统的不稳定我们其实也针对了台湾进行我们也看到台湾进行降尺度分析之后未来的气候推估将会这样子的状况就会是干季越干湿季越湿状况会越来越糟糕高排放的情境之下湿季的降雨量可能会超过20%尤其是南部的地区增加是更为明显的"},{"start":97.953,"end":120.074,"text":"那在2023年呢其實我們把一個叫原本是溫室氣體減量級管理法更名為氣候變遷因應法這個法三讀通過之後呢除了把2050年進行排放正式納入目標之外還增訂了全新的氣候變遷條式篇章專章喔但是我們也看到就是說在幫我按下一頁好了沒有反應可以了"},{"start":123.497,"end":149.838,"text":"就是国家气候变迁条式行动计划目前已经在执行第三期从112年到115年会投入超过4116亿新台币但是我们发现根据立法院预算中心的报告以往灾害是一个独立的领域会整体的来去设计完整的防灾思维包含台风 暴雨 淹水等等但是这次却把灾害拆掉了理由是因为灾害只是气候变迁的一项结果"},{"start":150.758,"end":173.143,"text":"所以就把它分拆到其他的領域但是我們也看到就是說因為各個領域偏向於各自的目標也就是說水資源他可能就更專注於乾旱缺水產業用水確保供水穩定強化供水韌性但是像淹水這種水災就沒有被完整的納入防洪防淹水的措施就相對缺乏"},{"start":173.703,"end":193.113,"text":"所以呢我們想要了解就是說為何環境部只有認定災害警示氣候變遷的一個結果而不是需要一個完整的規劃因為在國際上面掀台減災這個框架呢是要明示災害風險管理是必須獨立的一個重要政策領域所以我想了解為什麼環境部會這樣子做"},{"start":193.373,"end":217.709,"text":"好謝謝委員因為我自己本身就是做這方面的研究過那其實這個調適是長的然後防災是短的所以在我們政府幾年前他們的定義裡面是就是把防災就防災的這個策略包含防災的體系其實我們國家這個很完整但是長的調適呢跟這個如何融合的確是現在的確是一個很大的一個問題那我有已經有要求我們同仁在下一個階段"},{"start":218.59,"end":238.141,"text":"要各個部會要來提調等於是說調試的報告的時候必須要有一個總和的一個概念來看這個事特別是像這次的天災我們也必須去檢討它是不是氣候變遷極端的調試我們要來預作準備所以我們的確在進行這個探究這個過程當中也希望大概在半年到一年內有一些初步的成果再跟委員報告"},{"start":239.082,"end":257.648,"text":"所以我想請教一下因為想特別提醒我們是不是會跟內政部還有災防中心縣市政府一起來重新檢視目前的這個你剛講的這個調適的計畫對 這個很重要因為包含了這個所謂的極端的這個例如說降雨到多少我們要過什麼要準備可能要跟過去是不一樣了了解那聽起來也是會增加一些新的模型進來一起做分析對嗎對"},{"start":259.088,"end":282.17,"text":"好的那我想這個部分的話就是因為其實我想特別針對就是土地與都市規劃領域應該將氣候邊界納入這個環境性影響評估建立永續調適的制度這部分是不是內政部也可以一起來一起來努力一起來討論呢對可以也報告委員這個其實理想上都應該做但是真的落地落實上在政府各個部會要把調適放進去"},{"start":283.471,"end":296.362,"text":"的確是一個很大的難題那我們最近其實我上任其實我就想要做這個工作那當然這個需要一段時間那整個全部教育我們願意來做好 了解 謝謝那我們接下來有請教育部跟衛福部好 教育部衛福部 部長可以請回了 教育部衛福部今天沒有練習喔OK 好 沒關係那就是教育部想教育部時間暫停一下 時間暫停"},{"start":323.308,"end":350.581,"text":"委員好好謝謝部長那我簡單問兩個問題就是說針對於校園防疫就是因為現在可能我們在開學前都會要求一次的消毒而是因為現在在南部的地區西半部南部的地區他們有非常可能會有一些淹水積水的問題那是不是可以在開學之後呢還是有一些持續的去監管的一個措施可能去要求大家持續的消毒啦或是看一個積水的狀況去確保登革熱的疫情不會爆發是這個部分是不是可以請部長"},{"start":352.165,"end":354.337,"text":"根文報告事實上國教署在8月12號"},{"start":357.512,"end":382.854,"text":"這一個防疫就是在消毒這一個部分事實上在全我們有發文也請各地方政府這一個教育局處請這一個中小學能夠全面的這個消毒防疫我想這個在開學前本來他就是一個routine的一個工作那我們也特別在這一個南部的這一個災情我們在這一個部分先後發了兩次文一個是12號一個是22號"},{"start":384.195,"end":400.58,"text":"所以我們在開學之後還是會持續的監管這件事情嗎是是是那再做一個提醒就是說我希望還是可以帶回學除了學校之外也希望讓學生可以帶回家庭在於對於家長的一個防疫宣導也是要持續的來加強因為開學第一週謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝謝謝雅玲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時15分）有請環境部。"],["主席：請環境部部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：針對丹娜絲颱風來了之後，一連串在西南部降了非常非常大的雨量，我們有發現從歷史觀測的數據來看，臺灣降雨模式根本性的改變，在過去數十年，我們的總雨日呈現持續減少的趨勢，特別是關於農業灌溉與地下水的部分，小雨日數的減幅是尤其劇烈，每十年大概就減少4天，是過去百年的2倍，所以臺灣的氣候挑戰並不只是水災或是旱災，而是在這兩個極端系統下面的擺盪，即系統的不穩定。我們也看到針對臺灣進行降尺度分析之後，未來的氣候推估將會是這樣子的狀況，就會是乾季越乾，溼季越溼，狀況會越來越糟糕，在高排放的情境之下，溼季的降雨量可能會超過20%，尤其南部地區增加是更為明顯的。","在2023年，我們把原本叫「溫室氣體減量及管理法」更名為「氣候變遷因應法」，這部法三讀通過之後，除了把2050年淨零排放正式納入目標之外，還增訂全新的氣候變遷調適專章。","我們也看到國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫目前已經要執行第三期，從112年到115年，投入超過4,116億新臺幣。但是我們發現根據立法院預算中心的報告，以往災害是一個獨立的領域，會整體地去設計完整的防災思維，包含颱風、暴雨、淹水等等，但是這次卻把災害拆掉了，理由是因為災害只是氣候變遷的一項結果，所以就把它分拆到其他領域。我們也看到，因為各個領域偏向於各自的目標，也就是像水資源，可能就更專注於乾旱、缺水、產業用水、確保供水穩定、強化供水韌性，但是像淹水這種水災就沒有被完整的納入，防洪、防淹水的措施就相對缺乏。所以我們想要了解，為何環境部只有認定災害警示氣候變遷的結果，而不是需要一個完整規劃，因為在國際上仙台減災框架是要明示災害風險管理，這是必須獨立的重要政策領域，所以我想了解為什麼環境部會這樣做？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。因為我自己本身就是做這方面的研究，其實這個調適是長的，而防災是短的。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["彭部長啓明：所以在政府幾年前的定義裡面，就是把防災策略包含防災體系，其實我們國家這部分很完整，但是長的調適跟這個如何融合，現在的確是一個很大的問題，我已經有要求我們同仁在下一個階段，各個部會等於是要提出調適報告的時候，必須要從一個總和的概念來看這件事，特別是像這次的天災，我們也必須去檢討，它是不是氣候變遷極端的調適，我們要來預做準備，所以我們的確在進行探究的過程當中，也希望大概在半年到一年內有一些初步的成果再跟委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我想請教一下，因為想特別提醒，你們是不是會跟內政部、災防中心、縣市政府一起重新檢視目前你剛剛講的調適計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個很重要。因為包含了所謂的極端狀況，例如降雨到多少，我們要做什麼準備，可能跟過去是不一樣的。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。聽起來也會增加一些新的模型進來，一起做分析，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["張委員雅琳：好的。其實我想特別針對土地與都市規劃領域應該將氣候變遷納入這個環境性影響評估，建立永續調適制度，這部分是不是內政部也可以一起來努力、一起來討論呢？"],["彭部長啓明：對，可以。也報告委員，其實理想上都應該做，但是真的落地、落實上在政府各個部會要把調適放進去，的確是一個很大的難題，我上任就想要做這個工作。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。"],["彭部長啓明：當然這個需要一段時間，全部交給我們，我們願意來做。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，了解，謝謝。接下來有請教育部跟衛福部。部長可以請回了。"],["主席：請教育部，衛福部今天沒有列席喔！"],["張委員雅琳：OK，沒關係。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝部長。我簡單問兩個問題，針對校園防疫，可能我們在開學前都會要求一次的消毒，可是因為現在西半部、南部地區可能會有一些淹水、積水的問題，是不是可以在開學之後，還是有一些持續去監管的措施，可能要求大家持續消毒或是看積水的狀況，確保登革熱的疫情不會爆發，這個部分是不是可以請部長回應？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上國教署在8月12號對消毒部分我們有發文，也請各地方政府教育局處請中小學能夠全面進行消毒防疫，我想在開學前，本來它就是一個routine的工作，我們也特別在南部的災情這部分先後發了兩次文，一個是12號、一個是22號……"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們在開學之後還是會持續地監管這件事情嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["張委員雅琳：那再做一個提醒就是我希望還是可以帶回……除了學校之外，也希望讓學生可以帶回家庭，對於家長的防疫宣導也是要持續加強，因為開學第一週。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝雅琳。接著我們請許智傑委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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但我同意就是我們不希望是因為我們的公共設施造成人命的損傷對 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豆佑先生我絕對是在每個地方在後面但是有涉及到行車安全 開車死角我都希望我們進度來做內湖區只有29.1想辦法至少加快到一半吧好 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陳主委還有劉部長我們內政部劉部長委員好"},{"start":22.808,"end":41.327,"text":"昨天我在院会就是有问你有关于这个弱势户屋顶修缮的问题那昨天这个李孟彦顾问他在嘉义开会的时候他也提出来嘉义现在还有90个边缘户他可能不符合资格或者是未住金不足以负担修缮的费用"},{"start":42.268,"end":55.635,"text":"我昨天也在院會要求就是這次我們已經重寬給你們更多的預算了這90戶你是不是可以允諾都把它納入你們全補助的一個範圍幫助他們把屋頂修上好 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其實我們都會審查按照相關的法規做審查就是他一定要符合我們的一些法規我們才會同意他但是現在看起來元玉這家公司最不遵守中華民國法令的就是元玉這家公司別的廠商做得到 他做不到擺爛現在如果九月五"},{"start":351.921,"end":358.47,"text":"9月5號他沒有做的話就變成是環境部跟你們要出來善後我覺得這件事情你們要徹底的檢討把你們檢討報告一份給本席的辦公室 好不好將來要好好的把關 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":937,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時2分）謝謝主席，有請工程會主委還有內政部部長。"],["主席：我們請陳主委還有內政部劉部長。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：主委好。主委，昨天我在院會有問你關於弱勢戶屋頂修繕的問題，昨天李孟諺顧問在嘉義開會的時候也提出來，嘉義縣現在還有90個邊緣戶，他可能不符合資格或是慰助金不足以負擔修繕的費用，我昨天也在院會要求，就是這一次我們已經從寬給你們更多的預算，針對這90戶，你是不是可以允諾都把他們納入你們全補助的範圍，幫助他們把屋頂修繕好，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為這包括嘉義縣市還有臺南市，你講的大概是身心障礙者，還有獨居老人或者是他的收入不能夠符合低收或中低，這是以經濟角度來考量，你昨天提的是這個。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：至於特殊境遇跟脆弱家庭，那不是基於經濟考量，但那個情形我們已經納入了，這個禮拜五我們會再召開前進指揮所的會議，會徵詢這3個縣市的意見，他們在執行這個業務的區公所，比方說身心障礙者，而身心障礙者未必是戶主，所以它那邊要去稽核這些資料，要花一點時間，總之，我們禮拜五會儘量朝這個方向來評估。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：到底要怎麼執行還有方式，請允許我們跟這3個縣市政府討論之後，再來採取一個能夠快速、大家能夠接受的方案。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為現在已經出現問題，就是這些邊緣戶的確是有需求，我們現在還有30億的預備金，應該可以放寬來處理這些有需求但他現在沒有得到幫助的這些家庭，主委，這件事情我已經表達得非常清楚。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們禮拜五的會議會提出來討論。"],["王委員育敏：好，那你們最後的結果請再提供給本席辦公室。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝主委。因為主委已經答應了，所以內政部長可以請回了。","接下來我們請環境部還有經濟部，我要問的是有關於廢棄光電板整個清運的部分，現在13.5萬片光電板它的後續處理都要運到不是苗栗就是桃園，這個距離非常遙遠，超過150公里，甚至200公里。我先問環境部部長，你們沒有算過清運這13.5萬片光電板會多造成多少的碳排？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有算過，但是那個車次量是滿大的，因為光電板的量比較多是在中南部，所以我們希望未來中南部應該也要有這樣的回收場來做處理。"],["王委員育敏：你們這樣一個計畫有沒有預計什麼時候、有沒有一個目標期程？這個就是我要問的重點，現在大量的廢棄光電板都是從南部運到北部來處理，一方面你要減碳，但是這個增加的碳排實在是太大了，未來你說希望在南部地區也可以設置專門的回收場跟處理，所以你有沒有什麼期程以及要怎麼來做呢？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要業者來處理，但是在未來環保的循環經濟規劃裡面，我們的確已經考慮把它放進去，而且有些業者已經表達這個意願了。"],["王委員育敏：好，你們應該要去輔導，而且應該要成立。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員育敏：接下來我要問的是，現在這一家元昱公司在擺爛，就是它所有允諾的事情通通都沒有做到，現在有3.5萬片其實還擺在那邊，完全沒有清運，這個部分據我現在手上得到的資料，元昱公司目前繳交的光電模組回收費用才585萬，它應該要繳交的是不是1,950萬？"],["彭部長啓明：它必須繳交給能源署每1kW大概1,000塊，委員算的就是這個。"],["王委員育敏：那為什麼它現在繳得這麼少，只繳了三成？"],["彭部長啓明：因為它只有幾年的營運時間。"],["王委員育敏：對，這就是我要問的。接下來請問經濟部，聽說元昱公司它是一再的轉手，請問它一開始的時候是臺灣哪間廠商成立了這個案場？是由哪一個廠商負責的？有人傳出來說是雲豹，是嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：可能不是雲豹。"],["王委員育敏：那是誰？"],["何次長晉滄：我們再理解一下。"],["王委員育敏：你們到現在還沒掌握？"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["王委員育敏：我要問的就是，像這種一再轉手，聽說它轉了六、七手，現在才變成是泰國的投資進來，在這個轉手的過程中，你經濟部的角色是什麼？有沒有在審核、把關？我現在很擔心的是，轉到最後下一手的是一個爛攤子，然後它就告訴你說：我沒有辦法！那就變成是政府的負擔，這個問題你要怎麼來防止？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們都會按照相關的法規去做審查，就是它一定要符合我們的一些法規，我們才會同意它。"],["王委員育敏：但是現在看起來，最不遵守中華民國法令的就是元昱這家公司，別的廠商做得到，它卻做不到、擺爛，現在如果9月5號它沒有做的話，就變成是環境部跟你們要出來善後，我覺得這件事情你們要徹底的檢討，把你們檢討報告提供一份給本席的辦公室，好不好？將來要好好的把關，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：謝謝育敏委員。接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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環境部長有請好 我們請環境部來 彭部長來 彭部長委員好部長回來啦今年七月丹大市颱風重創南部民宅淹水道路損毀水利設施崩壞農業損失慘重到今天為止都還有很多居民在災後重建的過程中苦苦掙扎政府這一次提出了災後復原重建的特別預算案目的當然是要協助各地方政府競速的"},{"start":32.15,"end":55.609,"text":"這個災後復原修復災情但我必須要嚴肅的提醒這筆預算的每一分錢都應該用在人民的生活重建尤其不可以用在替財團插屁股颱風過後大家都看到南部地區有非常多的光電板被摧毀破碎的光電板到處亂飛甚至直接棄置還有無良業者直接破碎等等嚴重影響環境衛生甚至有可能造成污染"},{"start":56.625,"end":75.454,"text":"現在看起來很多我們也擔心啦光電業者擺明的就是要擺爛要政府出錢幫他們擦屁股那我知道彭部長已經開罰九百萬元也要求在九月底之前要完成所謂的清運但這個都還是沒有辦法平息社會大眾的質疑跟焦慮啊這些廠商真的會照做嗎還是他們會繼續擺爛到底呢"},{"start":77.615,"end":91.956,"text":"畢竟在這段時間這種失衡的政策導引下面這綠能廠商啊一個二個負的流油啊這九百萬的罰單對他們來講九牛一毛當作繳保護費繳一繳就算了他們真的會好好清運嗎那我就要問啊"},{"start":92.917,"end":112.413,"text":"現在行政院編列的災後重建的特別預算裡面環境不是16億嘛 對不對16億你講的大宗項目是指所有廢棄物的清運部長我要在這邊嚴肅的提醒這16億元你可以拿來清淤泥 清垃圾 清倒塌建築物等等 沒有問題幫助人民恢復家園 我相信不分朝野"},{"start":112.853,"end":138.44,"text":"都會支持但本席絕不同意光電業者藉機要轉嫁責任光電板既然是業者的財產他們也享有了政策的優惠回損之後的回收等等他就應該要自行負責不可以讓納稅人替這個財團買單部長你同意我這樣說法嗎報告員 對 你說的都是對我們裡面的預算沒有一分錢是給廢棄光電板處理的那這個都是他必須要自己負責的"},{"start":139.775,"end":161.197,"text":"他必須要自己負責對不對那如果說他真的做不到那我們要代位求償我們接手的話一定是跟他求償所以我們不希望走到那一步剛剛好幾位的委員其實都有提出啦光電板的清運問題啊那總量是2600到2800噸對不對部長從你的專業的角度來分析好好的處理這些廢棄物總共要花多少錢"},{"start":162.399,"end":174.15,"text":"那個是業者自己的事例如說他必須要付給最後的回收處理業者我知道這是業者自己的事你剛剛也做了宣示嘛這我覺得很好啊但問題是這個量是多少呢因為我們總要做一下估算吧"},{"start":175.1,"end":201.537,"text":"演講可能會有代位求償等等這樣的事情那會不會造成業者倒閉呢不會不會 鮑委員那一家業者他還在申請這個賭購費率等等的他還有錢 我們也查過他的資產沒有問題的部長你既然可以掛保證那你們整個環境部體系裡面從輕運的角度應該很多專家吧到底要花多少錢 2800噸我們是基本上不願意去做這個事因為那個是他必須要去處理自己的我現在問你的是你的專業判斷這個東西要花多少錢啊"},{"start":203.138,"end":227.177,"text":"大概幾億 應該要花幾億嘛 對不對所以這本期要嚴肅提醒啦你今天馬上下午大概要進到預算的審查我希望環境部你整理一下資料既然部長剛剛已經明確宣示這16億不會用在這個地方絕對沒有 零 沒有 那我們也想要稍微知道這16億的明細項目嘛也就是一包它是16億有多少拿來清淤泥 有多少清倒塌廢棄物等等這部分請環境部要提供一個比較完整的資料"},{"start":227.597,"end":234.669,"text":"要 這樣我們才能夠好交代嘛要不然很多人民會擔心的會被大家偷梁換柱嘛 對不對沒問題好不好 這個明信能不能提供好 可以"},{"start":235.469,"end":257.267,"text":"好那第二就是我們要對於光電廠商我擔心他們推卸責任除了開罰之外啦因為剛剛部長也講了一個數字嘛清運的費用回收的費用可能好幾億對不對好幾億跟九百萬的罰單確實是不成比例嘛那他就有可能造成他們投機取巧或者是用奇怪的方式來處理這樣的狀況我們要求環境部提出更嚴格的處罰機制"},{"start":258.948,"end":276.8,"text":"讓廠商確實的來做處理不能假裝一下交差了事更不能擺爛請問環境部有沒有什麼更強的方式可以盯著他們完成這件事呢報告委員現在已經進入他們要提出清理的報告計畫那我們在審核當中那未來呢就是期限內300 300 300這樣罰那300呢是因為廢清法的規定最多就是300萬"},{"start":280.862,"end":306.123,"text":"除了這個之外還有沒有什麼 你要不要跟經濟部協調一下比如說他們現在享有很多的政策優惠啊他如果不配合的時候我就要從另外一個方式來做處理有沒有考慮過這樣跨部的方式一起來增加壓力這個我們一定會來處理但是基本上我們看到他們是他們現在目前的承諾是9月5號前會把它清完好 這個功課也麻煩部長多費心啦這兩件事情麻煩會後提供詳細的資料跟配套 可以嗎可以 謝謝好 謝謝 辛苦了謝謝我們留委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":892,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時57分）謝謝主席，環境部部長，有請。"],["主席：請環境部彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。今年7月丹娜斯颱風重創南部，造成民宅淹水、道路損毀、水利設施崩壞、農業損失慘重，到今天為止都還有很多居民在災後重建的過程中苦苦掙扎。政府這次提出了災後重建的特別預算案，目的當然是要協助各地方政府儘速地災後復原、修復災情，但我必須嚴肅地提醒，這筆預算的每一分錢都應該用在人民的生活重建，尤其不可以用在替財團擦屁股。","颱風過後，大家都看到南部地區有非常多的光電板被摧毀，破碎的光電板到處亂飛，甚至直接遭到棄置，還有無良業者直接就地破碎等等，嚴重影響環境衛生，甚至有可能造成污染。現在看起來，我們也擔心光電業者擺明著就是要擺爛，要政府出錢幫他們擦屁股。我知道彭部長已經開罰900萬元，也要求在9月底之前要完成清運，但都還是沒有辦法平息社會大眾的質疑及焦慮。這些廠商真的會照做嗎？還是他們會繼續擺爛到底呢？畢竟這段時間在這種失衡的政策導引下，綠能廠商一個、二個富得流油，900萬的罰單對他們來講如同九牛一毛，當作繳保護費繳一繳就算了，他們真的會好好清運嗎？","我就要問了，現在行政院編列了災後重建的特別預算裡面，環境部是16億，對不對？在這16億裡面，你講的大宗項目是指所有廢棄物的清運。部長，我要在這邊嚴肅地提醒，這16億元可以拿來清淤泥、清垃圾、清倒塌建築物等等，沒有問題，幫助人民恢復家園我相信不分朝野都會支持，但本席絕不同意光電業者藉機轉嫁責任。光電板既然是業者的財產，他們也享有政策的優惠，毀損之後的回收等等就應該要自行負責，不可以讓納稅人替財團買單。部長，你同意我這樣的說法嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你說的都是對的，我們裡面的預算沒有一分錢是給廢棄光電板處理的，這個都是他們必須自己負責的。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們必須自己負責，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["彭部長啓明：如果他們真的做不到，我們要接手代位求償的話，一定是跟他們求償，所以我們不希望走到那一步。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛好幾位委員其實都有提出光電板的清運問題，總量是2,600噸到2,800噸，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，從你專業的角度來分析，好好地處理這些廢棄物總共要花多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：那個是業者自己的事，例如他必須付給最後的回收處理業者。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道這是業者自己的事，你剛剛也做了宣示，我覺得很好。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但問題是這個量是多少呢？因為我們總要做一下估算吧，就像你講的，可能會有代位求償等等這樣的事情，會不會造成比如業者倒閉？會不會造成連鎖反應呢？"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會，報告委員，那家業者還在申請躉購費率等等，他還有錢，我們也查過他的資產，沒有問題的。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你既然可以掛保證，整個環境部體系裡面從清運的角度應該有很多專家吧，2,800噸到底要花多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們基本上不願意去做這個事……"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道你不願意做……"],["彭部長啓明：因為那個是他必須要去處理自己的……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在問你是，以你的專業判斷，這個東西要花多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：大概幾億應該跑不掉。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概要花幾億，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以本席要嚴肅提醒，今天下午馬上要進入預算的審查，我希望環境部整理一下資料，既然部長剛剛已經明確宣示這16億不會用在這個地方，我覺得很好……"],["彭部長啓明：絕對沒有！零！沒有！完全沒有！"],["牛委員煦庭：那我們也想要稍微知道這16億的明細項目，也就是一包是16億，有多少拿來清淤泥、有多少是拿來清倒塌廢棄物等等，這部分請環境部提供一個比較完整的資料，這樣我們才能夠好交代，要不然很多人民會很擔心，會不會大家偷梁換柱，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個明細能不能提供？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二，就是對於光電廠商，我擔心他們推卸責任，除了開罰之外，因為剛剛部長也講了一個數字，清運的費用、回收的費用可能好幾億，而好幾億跟900萬的罰單，確實是不成比例，這就有可能造成他們投機取巧，或者是用奇怪的方式來處理這樣的狀況，我們要求環境部提出更嚴格的處罰機制，讓廠商確實來做處理，不能假裝一下、交差了事，更不能擺爛。請問環境部有沒有什麼更強的方式可以盯著他們完成這件事呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在已經進入他們要提出清理報告計畫的階段，我們也在審核當中，未來就是期限內300、300、300這樣罰，300萬是因為廢清法的規定，最多就是300萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：除了這個之外，還有沒有什麼？你們要不要跟經濟部協調一下？比如說他們現在享有很多的政策優惠，如果他們不配合的時候，你們就要從另外的方式來做處理，有沒有考慮過採取這樣跨部的方式一起來增加壓力？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們一定會來處理，但是基本上他們目前的承諾是9月5號前會把它清完。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這個功課也麻煩部長多費心。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：這兩件事情麻煩會後提供詳細資料跟配套，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝我們牛委員。接下來我們請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝 洪部長我想請問你就是這一次的光電板回收的這樣子的一個疑義因為過去我們的法規規定的都是20年以後的這個光電板才回收即便是我們的光電板可以回收到92到95%"},{"start":59.241,"end":71.388,"text":"那但是過去以來因為還沒到20年所有的業者因為回收這個沒有經濟效益所以量能不夠大我想請問你這次風災所產生的2600到2800噸的光電板毀損怎麼樣子"},{"start":78.055,"end":101.955,"text":"怎麼樣子回收那法規上面要不要改報告委員其實目前的量是夠的但是因為第一次遇到這麼大的量所以我們也在看說這個去化的業者到底夠不夠那目前正在進行當中那到底夠不夠目前看其實夠的而且未來還有一些業者也要投入所以我們預期未來大概可能是十年後這個大量的產出了之後目前我們來看沒有問題的"},{"start":102.907,"end":114.36,"text":"十年後沒有問題那如果未來再發生風災有像這樣子這麼大量的光電板的時候有沒有現在目前的回收業者有沒有讓人處理"},{"start":115.732,"end":137.017,"text":"目前是可以但是因為這次委員跟報告委員因為這次在水面上所以它的這個量才會那麼的大那我們也觀察了很多的這種所謂的在陸地上的或是在屋頂上的其實它的損害沒有那麼的多那受災的光電板在法律上面是認為是一般廢棄物而不是專門的回收物喔"},{"start":137.597,"end":165.906,"text":"那這個部分你是要在法規上修改它現在就是一個叫做事業廢棄物事業廢棄物那它必須有妥善的處理所以他們這一次也必須業者也要自付這個處理的一個費用所以現在還是一般的事業廢棄物而不是回收物它基本上送給這個所謂的回收廠那個都我們經過列管的那它基本上都有編號所以會妥善的處理它必須要完整的去做回收不能隨便亂丟的"},{"start":167.526,"end":194.417,"text":"如果它不是回收物那怎麼樣子按照回收的規則那它現在目前是一般事業廢棄物你是不是應該要回去了解一下是廢棄物但是它每一個都有編號那每一個編號都要進到回收場我說你回去了解一下法規是不是要修改好不好你一定要回去了解好不好我一定會追蹤你的好沒問題還有現在在你旁邊的有經濟部有農業部有水利署"},{"start":195.177,"end":211.276,"text":"都是這一次風災非常重要相關的部門處理淹水的問題但是我們遇到一個非常棘手的跨部會的問題都找不到環境部來處理啊"},{"start":212.616,"end":218.14,"text":"有啊 我們一直都在團隊裡面一直在處理你們都一直在團隊裡面對 都在處理他們沒有告訴你嗎現在全台灣的稻田這一次的風災非常多的稻谷你把它堆到旁邊因為淹水連日的大雨即便颱風沒有到彰化連日的大雨也造成稻谷"},{"start":236.532,"end":257.812,"text":"淹水所有的排水設施不管是水利署的農田水利署的等等的自來水廠的都受到相關的影響導致農民在說未來是不是應該在颱風的時候開放他們可以焚燒這些稻谷"},{"start":258.633,"end":272.858,"text":"那如果焚燒稻穀不是我們環境部的法規可以處理的你環境部是不是要有新的調適的方法你要怎麼做"},{"start":273.698,"end":288.57,"text":"那這一次的稻谷所有都淹涉了我們的排水設施我們所有相關的設施導致於淹水沒有辦法退那我想請問你環境部你怎麼處理"},{"start":290.249,"end":317.778,"text":"他目前是有一些農民他希望能夠來焚燒啦那目前其實我們這個會再跟農業部好好再討論因為不是說焚燒的問題喔而是這些稻谷都已經阻塞了所有的排水設施未來如果颱風再來這些稻谷再阻塞了我們的設施那導致淹水不退導致我們所有的農產品"},{"start":319.258,"end":337.591,"text":"你復耕也好連日的大雨一個月全部都沒有辦法種這怎麼樣處理大家希望你環境部要給出一個做法你說不能焚燒沒關係你要協調出一個新的方法"},{"start":338.391,"end":345.617,"text":"SRF或者其他方法你一定要好好處理今天只有五分鐘但是這個問題很大未來颱風的時候還會持續的發生一定要想出一個調整的方法謝謝我們謝委員問題很大私下再跟我們委員報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時51分）謝謝主席，我想要請彭部長、農業部陳部長、經濟部次長，水利署一起來。"],["主席：還有嗎？"],["謝委員衣鳯：以上。先請……"],["主席：請環境部、經濟部，還有農業部。現在時間是11時51分，我們現在開放用餐，因為會議會繼續進行下去。謝謝謝委員。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。彭部長，我想請問你這一次光電板回收的疑義，過去我們的法規規定的都是20年以後的光電板才回收，即便是光電板可以回收到92%到95%，但是過去以來因為還沒到20年，所有的業者因為回收光電板沒有經濟效益，以致量能不夠大。我想請問你，這次風災所產生的2,600噸到2,800噸的光電板毀損，要怎麼樣回收？法規上面要不要改？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實目前的量能是夠的，但是因為第一次遇到這麼大的量，所以我們也在看去化的業者到底夠不夠，目前正在進行當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那到底夠不夠？多久？"],["彭部長啓明：目前來看其實是夠的，而且未來還有一些業者也要投入，所以我們預期未來可能是10年後大量的產出之後，目前來看沒有問題的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：10年後沒有問題，那如果未來再發生風災，有像這樣子這麼大量的光電板毀損的時候，目前的回收業者有沒有量能處理？"],["彭部長啓明：目前是可以，但是因為這次是在水面上，所以量才會那麼大，我們也觀察了很多在陸地上或屋頂上的，其實它的損害沒有那麼多。"],["謝委員衣鳯：受災的光電板在法律上面被認為是一般廢棄物，而不是專門的回收物……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個部分是不是要在法規上修改？"],["彭部長啓明：它現在就是事業廢棄物，必須有妥善的處理，所以這次業者也必須自付處理的費用。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以現在還是一般的事業廢棄物，而不是回收物？"],["彭部長啓明：對，事業廢棄物。基本上，送給回收場的都有經過列管，都有編號，所以會妥善地處理，必須完整地做回收，不能隨便亂丟的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果它不是回收物，怎麼樣按照回收的規則……它現在是一般事業廢棄物，你是不是應該要回去瞭解一下？"],["彭部長啓明：是廢棄物，但是它每一個都有編號，每一個編號都要進到回收場。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我是說你回去瞭解一下法規是不是要修改，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你一定要回去瞭解，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我一定會追蹤你的。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有，現在在你旁邊的經濟部、農業部、水利署，都是這次風災非常重要相關的部門，負責處理淹水的問題，但是我們遇到一個非常棘手的跨部會問題，都找不到環境部來處理啊！"],["彭部長啓明：有啊，我們一直都在團隊裡面，一直在處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們都一直在團隊裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：對，都在處理，協助處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們沒有告訴你嗎？現在全臺灣的稻田經過這次的風災，有非常多的稻穀被堆到旁邊，因為淹水、連日的大雨，即便颱風沒有到彰化，連日的大雨也造成稻穀淹水，所有的排水設施不管是水利署、農田水利署、自來水廠等等的，都受到相關的影響，所以農民說未來是不是應該在颱風的時候開放他們可以焚燒這些稻穀？如果焚燒稻穀不是環境部的法規可以處理的，環境部是不是要有新的調適方法？你要怎麼做？這次稻穀把所有的排水設施、相關的設施都堰塞了，導致淹水沒有辦法退去，我想請問環境部，你怎麼處理？請回答。"],["彭部長啓明：目前有一些農民希望能夠焚燒，其實我們會再跟農業部好好再討論，因為這個是屬於農業廢棄物。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是只有焚燒的問題，而是這些稻穀都已經阻塞了所有的排水設施，未來如果颱風再來，這些稻穀再阻塞了我們的設施，導致淹水不退，所有的農產品復耕也好……連日的大雨，一個月全部都沒有辦法種耶！這要怎麼樣處理？大家希望環境部要給出一個做法嘛！你說不能焚燒，沒關係，你要協調出一個新的方法、SRF或者其他方法，你一定要好好處理。今天的質詢只有5分鐘，但是這個問題很大，未來颱風的時候還會持續地發生，一定要想出一個調適的方法！"],["主席：謝謝謝委員，這個問題很大，私下再跟委員報告。","接下來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝您那天到我們金門去視察這個重大的公共工程建設那水頭商港現在是李雲大樓是大概幾月 石屹底丸公司你說的"},{"start":22.886,"end":37.096,"text":"應該今年可以試營運了今年什麼時候試營運呢 年底啊日期我不太記得了啦我那天去看 它是可以完工而且那天去看的現場已經在裝修要收賣了所以它"},{"start":37.856,"end":65.767,"text":"今年年底看能不能試營運希望很快好讓這個金門有一個這個我們有一個好的門面第二個來你們那天您那天有特別就是上次我在院會總質詢的時候有質詢經濟部部長然後這個卓院長那有提到這個供水的這個問題就是金門供水韌性的問題那我知道您那天特別有去這個開會到這個金門海淡廠去開會有關金門綠島地區供水改善計畫第三期那做了兩個會議記錄"},{"start":67.068,"end":95.984,"text":"你看這個您是主席嘛提升為提升兩個結論一個為了提升金門地區的供水韌性要積極發展多元的水資源及海淡水為優先考量對吧這第一個結論第二個結論喔建議金門地區既有海淡廠設施改善計畫及金門三萬噸海淡廠興建工程的可行性規劃一併納入離島地區供水改善計畫第三級合併辦理對吧沒錯你知道現在金門的這個水是一天大概兩萬多噸對吧"},{"start":96.917,"end":116.365,"text":"金門的水 用水 民生用水現在依賴對岸的 依賴大陸大概兩萬三千噸大概有兩萬噸每一天要從大陸過來這個您知道所以站在這個國家整體的考量那時候我跟卓院長在立法院質詢有提出也問了經濟部 郭部長就是說"},{"start":119.622,"end":136.837,"text":"就是金門的也要有自己自足的供水能力嘛就是供水能力我那天講的就是說海水淡化嘛對 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六月前又有檔案所以原則上是以明年完成為網目標明年六月前完成啦 完成可行性評估會明年六月底完成沒問題吧應該年底 還要明年年底喔一個計畫要做一年喔 這個要加快啦我沒有那麼多時間啦 加快加快我們會加快 好 謝謝來 接著環境部喔 對不起時間停一下 環境部上來一下環境部"},{"start":291.176,"end":291.338,"text":"進步 部長"},{"start":300.834,"end":321.931,"text":"部長這個災後風災你們有一個石棉的處理方式石棉瓦三部兩約就要處理這些石棉瓦因為這個有環境污染而且對健康有害這個你們有做了一個計畫7億元補助地方政府處理我們金門也有雖然這是不是在風災區裡但我們金門也有風災受損的石棉瓦屋頂你們這個有研究計畫112年到119年因為今天登記的人數很多能不能請我們部長"},{"start":325.794,"end":328.917,"text":"給這一個委員那個那我把題目讓出來你回答我書面就是說你有計畫說我們基本憲政委員說沒有提出申請那請你再問一下憲政委員要不要申請然後接著什麼時候可以給我們這樣的計畫給我們多少錢你書面回覆給我好嗎書面回覆給陳玉珍委員好沒問題好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時45分）謝謝主席。請行政院工程會主委，等一下還有經濟部。"],["主席：請陳主委，還有經濟部。"],["陳委員玉珍：經濟部，等一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委好。謝謝您那天到金門視察重大公共工程建設，水頭商港營運大樓大概幾月完工？你說10月底完工，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：應該今年可以試營運。"],["陳委員玉珍：今年什麼時候試營運？年底？"],["陳主任委員金德：日期我不太記得了，我那天看它可以完工，而且那天看現場已經在裝修、快要收尾了，所以今年年底看能不能試營運。"],["陳委員玉珍：希望很快好，讓金門有一個好的門面。","第二個、上次我在院會總質詢的時候有質詢經濟部部長，卓院長有提到金門供水韌性的問題。我知道您那天有特別到金門海淡廠開會，是有關離島地區供水改善計畫第三期，做了兩個會議紀錄，你看您是主席。有兩個結論，一是為了提升金門地區的供水韌性，要積極發展多元的水資源及海淡水為優先考量，對吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是第一個結論。第二個結論，建議金門地區既有海淡廠設施改善計畫及金門3萬噸海淡廠興建工程的可行性規劃，一併納入綠島地區供水改善計畫第三期核定辦理，對吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：沒錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道現在金門的民生用水一天大概兩萬多噸，對吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：民生用水現在依賴對岸的……"],["陳委員玉珍：依賴大陸嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：大概2萬3,000噸，其中有2萬噸每一天要從大陸送過來，這個您知道嘛？站在國家整體的考量，那時候我在立法院質詢跟卓院長有提出，也問了經濟部郭部長，就是金門也要有自給自足的供水能力。"],["陳主任委員金德：有關供水能力，我那天講的是海水淡化，另外就是因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就是要有供水能力，你們覺得要以海水淡化為優先。"],["陳主任委員金德：但是還有其他的，比方金門有時候會下強降雨，所以水都流掉了，希望有一些比較簡易的設施把這個水留住。"],["陳委員玉珍：包括留水設施，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：第三個就是當地經常有大霧，應該有一些設施可以利用霧來產生一些水，但這是很微量的。"],["陳委員玉珍：你的意思把霧驅除掉變成水，對吧？有這樣的科技？"],["陳主任委員金德：霧碰到一些金屬會凝結在上面，水會滴下來，這個也有先例可循。"],["陳委員玉珍：有現代的技術就對了？"],["陳主任委員金德：對，不過……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以解除霧的困擾又得到水，是不是這樣？"],["陳主任委員金德：不過還是以海水淡化為主。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，都有，這幾步都要做。這個很好，謝謝你們，這個也是我那時候提出來的。","雖然郭部長以健康因素要請辭，不過還是謝謝他當初也有給我們肯定的答案，說要做這個，但政策還是要延續吧？所以請問包括剛剛陳主委所提的既有海淡廠設施改善工程，還有興建3萬噸海淡廠的可行性計畫，什麼時候會開始呢？哪個單位可以回答你們的時程？工程會主委有說了，這個可行性計畫已經要開始了，開始了沒？什麼時候開始做這個計畫？什麼時候可以加快？"],["何次長晉滄：我們會把它納入中長程的計畫……"],["陳委員玉珍：納入哪個計畫？"],["何次長晉滄：可能要爭取離島建設條例相關經費來補助……"],["陳委員玉珍：我先告訴你，它現在是可行性評估嘛？"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：可行性評估可以先開始吧？工程會陳主委，這是你提的吧？你說要加快，加快是什麼時候？"],["何次長晉滄：好……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，可以回答的人回答，什麼時候呢？"],["林署長元鵬：這個是列在離島供水計畫的第三期計畫，剛核定。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪一年可以開始？什麼時候可以把可行性計畫評估做好？可以告訴我嗎？"],["林署長元鵬：原則上，看發包的作業，因為要做可行性評估，我們會儘快。原則上……"],["陳委員玉珍：儘快是什麼時候？我時間有限，告訴我什麼時候？"],["林署長元鵬：以現在來看，應該是明年，大概6月前我們會來……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以把可行性計畫做好嘛？"],["林署長元鵬：不是……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以開始做可行性計畫？一年後才開始做可行性？"],["林署長元鵬：年底發包、一年完成……"],["陳委員玉珍：年底發包，6月前會有答案？"],["林署長元鵬：所以原則上是以明年完成為我們的目標。"],["陳委員玉珍：明年6月前完成？"],["林署長元鵬：完成可行性評估為……"],["陳委員玉珍：明年6月底完成，沒問題吧？"],["林署長元鵬：應該年底，因為它是一年的計畫。"],["陳委員玉珍：還要到明年年底？一個計畫要做一年？"],["林署長元鵬：因為它要做……"],["陳委員玉珍：這個要加快！我沒有那麼多時間，加快、加快。"],["林署長元鵬：是，我們會加快，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著，請環境部上來一下。"],["主席：請環境部部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，風災後你們有一個石綿的處理方式──石綿瓦3不2約，就是要處理這些石綿網，因為造成環境污染而且對健康有害，所以你們做了一個計畫，以7億元補助地方政府處理。金門也有，雖然不在風災區裡頭，但金門也有風災受損的石綿瓦屋頂。你們的研究計畫112年到……"],["主席：陳委員，不好意思！因為今天登記人數很多，能不能請部長給委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，我把題目提出來，你以書面回答我。你們有計畫，但說金門縣政府沒有提出申請，請你再問一下縣政府要不要申請？接著，什麼時候可以給我們這樣的計畫、給我們多少錢？你以書面回復給我，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請書面回復給陳玉珍委員。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，書面回復給陳玉珍委員。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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董事長早喔這一次的丹納斯颱風全台灣大概3500支電桿倒塌全台大概100萬戶來停電那其中其實高雄受影響很重我們從去年的凱米到山豚到今年的丹納斯每一次都因為這個電纜地下化的問題受到重創那這一次呢其實高雄就有3萬多戶停電"},{"start":46.94,"end":52.904,"text":"那我在這邊想要再一次的幫我們選區來爭取因為我們選區的古山路跟登山街這兩條其實我從去年的山陀兒之後就已經跟台電爭取完了那好不容易爭取到了這兩條台電也答應我了結果今年初你們又說因為撥補的問題沒有辦法解決財政困難所以這兩條的預算你們又把它移除了"},{"start":74.534,"end":98.63,"text":"那移除之後我對選民很難交代啊那到了現在你們又有了這個風災的特別條例可是我看到裡面你們提到的是遷改線路80億架空線路的有22億然後在國安的任性條例裡面有提到科學園區你們要撥131億然後遷改線路也是有61億架空線路有8億總共有302億這麼多的預算那請問這裡面"},{"start":104.013,"end":132.218,"text":"有电缆地下化吗有啊那请问你们这里面的电缆地下化的费用用在哪一些路段已经出来了吗目前规划主要是以省道为最主要优先这是这两个特别条例里面这就是我想问的你们这一次拨的这两个条例里面总共302亿里面只有提到省道只有提到科学园区可是你们之前跟我们选区跳票的内容"},{"start":133.274,"end":157.112,"text":"要放在哪里那个台电也有我们每年年度有一部分的预算在做地下化的工作那如果这个地方是比较容易遇到就是比较容易遇到啊所以我这两条才争取这么久董事长我跟您报告我们古山路五年跳电了三十次登山街三年跳电了九次"},{"start":157.893,"end":176.001,"text":"就是這麼高每一次發生停電的時候選民都問我說我們這裡是不是次等公民為什麼隔了一條街別人都沒停電就我們停電只要每一次風災一來都是這兩個路段在受損所以去年我好不容易跟你們爭取結果你們現在跟我說沒有"},{"start":176.997,"end":194.313,"text":"你们跟我说没有委员我这样子讲你刚才说的事情是高雄区处发生的状况那像我们的副总应该也有去跟您的办公室讨论过这件事没有那这一个部分的工作没有你们跟我们说就算有预算也不一定会编"},{"start":195.314,"end":203.684,"text":"就算有預算我們過去爭取到的也一樣可能會跳票這就是台電告訴我的所以我今天特別來這邊質詢就是想告訴你說古山路跟山街這兩條什麼時候要編什麼時候要編"},{"start":211.873,"end":213.415,"text":"這不太可能要講報告委員你現在講的古山山路的所有的狀況細節上面包括它可能會牽涉到一些軍事設施的圍牆那圍牆要拆除才有辦法開挖我還要拆除圍牆把它裝回來"},{"start":230.35,"end":243.29,"text":"我們陪你們會看我們找軍方陪你們會看我們都會看過啦那時候答應我的就是要示範一段然後登山街也是都已經告訴我不是已經做六成了嗎我也沒有說高雄區處不要做"},{"start":244.628,"end":256.576,"text":"什麼叫做不要做我們卓院長都說過總署從來沒有說過說有預算也不要做那委員你一定要講說有預算也不要做我覺得這個事情可能是不合理的地下化不是萬靈丹你們現在不只是推卸責任你們還告訴我說不是萬靈丹地下化不是萬靈丹問題是你們現在連止痛藥都不給啊你們就看著選民在你們面前的痛苦啊"},{"start":274.668,"end":287.176,"text":"就是這樣我必須要告訴董事長這就是台電一直以來給我的態度我覺得這不是台電全部的狀況如果出現了部分這樣的情形我會去找我們區處的同仁我早就講過啦你們有找嗎高雄區處如果有這樣子的狀況我們會找高雄區處的狀況看高雄區處哪一個主管我們會找他們來檢討"},{"start":299.252,"end":324.352,"text":"所以我在這邊要求你檢討並且把這兩條路段到底要放在哪一筆預算明確的告訴我他有好幾個可能性我要講一個事情現在我們省的特別預算提出來的都是主幹線那台電自有的預算能夠優先做我們會來優先做所以馬連風災的特別預算都不能下來處理我們因為受到風災影響的路段只有省道"},{"start":325.393,"end":331.643,"text":"委員我們報告我們很清楚知道在有限的時間跟預算的範圍內我們是不是請董事長再跟我們黃姐委員再多做溝通好不好謝謝我們黃姐委員因為時間到了接下來我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時39分）謝謝主席，請台電的曾董事長。"],["主席：請台電曾董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：委員早。"],["黃委員捷：董事長早。這次的丹娜絲颱風，全臺灣大概有3,500支電杆倒塌，大概100萬戶停電，其中高雄受影響很重，我們從去年的凱米到山陀兒到今年的丹娜絲，每次都因為電纜地下化的問題受到重創，像這次高雄就有三萬多戶停電。我在這邊想要再一次地幫我們選區來爭取，因為我們選區的鼓山路跟登山街，這兩條其實我從去年的山陀兒之後，就已經跟台電爭取完了，好不容易爭取到了，這兩條台電也答應我了，結果今年初你們又說：因為撥補的問題，沒有辦法解決，財政困難。所以你們又把這兩條的預算移除了，移除之後，我對選民很難交代，到了現在你們又有了風災的特別條例，可是我看到裡面，你們提到的是遷改線路80億、架空線路22億，然後在國安韌性條例裡面也有提到，科學園區你們要撥131億，然後遷改線路也是有61億，架空線路有8億，總共有302億。請問這麼多的預算裡面有電纜地下化嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：有啊！"],["黃委員捷：請問這裡面的電纜地下化費用用在哪一些路段？已經出來了嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：目前規劃主要是以省道為最主要優先，這是這兩個特別條例裡面……"],["黃委員捷：這就是我想問的，這一次這兩個條例總共撥給你們302億，裡面只有提到省道、科學園區，可是你們之前跟我的選區跳票的內容要放在哪裡？"],["曾董事長文生：台電每年度也有一部分的預算在做地下化的工作，如果這個地方比較容易遇到颱風停電的話……"],["黃委員捷：就是比較容易遇到，所以這兩條我才爭取這麼久。"],["曾董事長文生：我們就會來做這樣的工作。"],["黃委員捷：董事長，我跟您報告，鼓山路五年跳電30次，登山街三年跳電9次，就是這麼高！每一次發生停電，選民都問我，我們是不是次等公民？為什麼隔了一條街，別人都沒停電，就我們停電？只要每次風災一來都是這兩個路段在受損，去年我好不容易跟你們爭取，結果你們現在跟我說沒有！"],["曾董事長文生：你剛才說的事情是高雄區處發生的狀況，我們的副總應該也有跟您的辦公室討論過這件事。"],["黃委員捷：沒有！"],["曾董事長文生：這個部分的工作會遇到一件事情，就是……"],["黃委員捷：你們跟我們說，就算有預算也不一定會編；就算有預算，我們過去爭取到的也一樣可能會跳票。這就是台電告訴我的，所以我今天特別來這邊質詢就是想告訴你……"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得講到有預算還會跳票，這件事情不太可能啦！"],["黃委員捷：鼓山路、登山街這兩條什麼時候要編？"],["曾董事長文生：這不太可能！你現在講的鼓山三路所有的狀況，細節上包括可能會牽涉到一些軍事設施的圍牆，圍牆要拆除才有辦法開挖，我還要拆除圍牆把它裝回來……"],["黃委員捷：所以我們都在進行評估，我們都說台電過來，我們就陪你們會勘。我們找軍方、陪你們會勘，我們都會勘過了，那時候答應我的，就是要試辦一段，然後登山街也是，都已經告訴我，不是已經做六成了嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我從頭到尾沒有這樣說，也沒有說高雄區處不要做。"],["黃委員捷：什麼叫做不要做？"],["曾董事長文生：總處從來沒有說過，有預算也不要做。你一定要說有預算也不要做，我覺得這件事情可能是不合理的。"],["黃委員捷：卓院長都說全臺灣進行全國電纜地下化的評估，結果台電說什麼？台電出來說地下化要十倍的預算，好貴！又說地下化不是萬靈丹。你們現在不只是推卸責任，你們還告訴我說不是萬靈丹。地下化不是萬靈丹，問題是你們現在連止痛藥都不給，你們就看著選民在你們的面前痛苦，就是這樣。我必須要告訴董事長，這就是台電一直以來給我的態度。"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得這不是台電全部的狀況，如果出現了部分這樣的情形，我會找區處的同仁檢討。"],["黃委員捷：我早就講過了，你們有找嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：高雄區處如果有這樣的狀況……"],["黃委員捷：就是有。"],["曾董事長文生：我們會看是高雄區處哪一個主管……"],["黃委員捷：你們就是這樣對待我們鼓山的選民！"],["曾董事長文生：我們會找他們來檢討。"],["黃委員捷：我在這邊要求你檢討，並且把這兩條路段到底要放在哪一筆預算明確告訴我。"],["曾董事長文生：它有好幾個可能性。我要講一件事情，現在特別預算提出來的都是主幹線，台電自有的預算能夠優先做的，我們會優先做。"],["黃委員捷：連風災的特別預算都不能下來處理因為風災受到影響的路段，只有省道，然後鼓山的選民已經被跳票很多次了！"],["曾董事長文生：我們很清楚知道在有限的預算跟時間範圍內，我們要做的事情全部都會做。"],["主席：請董事長跟黃捷委員再多溝通，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員，因為時間到了。","接下來請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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我想請問法務部"},{"start":217.829,"end":236.947,"text":"針對這個案子有沒有向上溯源擴大偵辦我問題問完你再回答一個小英男孩就有辦法做到這件事有沒有其他政府人士黨政人士涉入部長回答之前我先幫你回答你會說個案不評論你會說偵查不公開對不對我猜中了沒"},{"start":238.416,"end":266.977,"text":"我想有證據就一定向上溯源嘛好 第三句 證據到哪辦到哪對啊 那個現在不是有那個今天這個新聞就出來了包括那個證訊嫌犯以及那個某建設公司的副職都已經進鑑了嘛就進鑑了 那進鑑就積壓進鑑部長 我直接告訴你啦沒關係啦 我要告訴你啦那我想這個外界看你們檢察官在辦事嘛"},{"start":268.278,"end":294.927,"text":"今天王俊麗有沒有施壓罷免期間不要動罷免之後再動有沒有這個不要去做一個採測你幫王俊麗背書嘛你不要去做採測你幫他背書嘛 你就說絕對沒有當然 這個怎麼可能你就直接講絕對沒有嘛這個不要去採測這麼巧 罷免期間請問這個案件到底他在裡面運人小老鼠偷吃台電"},{"start":296.047,"end":320.885,"text":"偷吃了多少年 多久 他偷吃多久你告訴大家 總知道吧這個案件我不清楚你看嘛 又來啦 個案不清楚 偵查不公開你只有一個情況之下 你們的偵查會公開啦辦柯文哲 辦黃綠幾如偵查就一定公開啦報紙就報滿滿啦遇到今天民進黨的避難弊案就偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據辦到哪裡你就這三句話就結束"},{"start":322.27,"end":348.606,"text":"說真的整個執行 你三句話 你在那邊可以結束啊來 我要告訴你有沒有其他政府人士 黨政人士涉入 有沒有個案不評論 偵查不公開這個要看那個案件 得一個證據 得一個說明證據到哪 辦到哪 結束我問你 你也回答了 來那 正信嫌犯被搜索時 竟然對調查人員嗆聲啊你知道我背後是誰嗎我想請問你知道他背後是誰嗎"},{"start":350.472,"end":378.4,"text":"你知道他背後是誰嗎背後就是民進黨背後就是權貴行政院能源檢探辦公室是不是政府職務是不是30歲不到就可以去當行政院能源檢探辦公室主任背景深厚啊權貴啊綠油油啊黨政關係好啊"},{"start":380.134,"end":397.505,"text":"沒有上線天花板嘛 該辦就辦嘛 對不對誒 非常好 你終於講一句我認同的話有證據就辦啦 這部分黨派就有證據向上辦啦來沒關係 我告訴你有一個人期待你向上辦你知道是誰嗎有一個人期待你向上辦是誰嗎 你知道嗎有這個問題嗎郭志輝啊郭志輝講了啊為什麼一直講綠能小老鼠"},{"start":408.649,"end":434.727,"text":"郭志輝更假於綠能大老鼠啊 更大尾在後面啊郭志輝什麼時候約談 個案不評論 偵查不公開有證據到哪 辦到哪來了嘛 我懂啊我懂啊 我懂啊我這一年多跟副長你相處 我怎麼會不瞭解你你看我都幫你回答 我對你多體貼我看連吳宗憲主席都可以幫你回答了我要不要點他起來幫你回答"},{"start":436.348,"end":464.949,"text":"綠能大老鼠請教主席會議詢問綠能大老鼠是這樣你覺得我們的部長他的回答就是三句話就結束啊檢察官他就這樣三句話結束啊好啦沒事主席好就拿你做示範啦因為他也都面對你這樣的回答嘛每一個都面對你這樣回答三句話金句結束我都常常在講今天我們的法務部長你直接在背後貼一個背板"},{"start":466.243,"end":494.429,"text":"然後呢 每個委員上來質詢你就是偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據到哪辦到哪 三句然後每個委員 外委員你就說三句你認選結束了嘛那質詢就很好過啊那我就要問啦郭志威說還有更大委 那個綠能大老鼠請問檢察官該不該辦 該不該約談你也是檢察系統出身的人嘛他都已經跟你講更大委了 要不要辦嘛"},{"start":496.238,"end":521.959,"text":"我不問個案喔這個我就要會議詢問了沒辦法抱歉因為我沒幹過檢察官我不知道也許我這個才疏學淺這個知識短陋當今天綠能小老鼠已經是被抓到偷吃綠能偷吃台電挖台電的錢造成台電的虧損"},{"start":523.666,"end":540.254,"text":"那想請問郭志輝經濟部長誒說還有更大尾的一個正常的檢察官會不會辦他會不會約起碼約談他會不會約談他我不知道檢察官失誤啊這個檢察官是可以主動簡報分案分案之後當然是可以傳訊因為可以把他當作證人的身份傳喚"},{"start":541.434,"end":558.579,"text":"對啊 謝謝 你看回答得多好我沒有教你指導個案我要問你是原則嘛你看他主席原則性講得多好檢報分案就可以啦你跟我這樣回答我也滿意啊你要等到主席講完以後才要跟進也不錯啦主席指導你我覺得你講得也蠻好的啊謝謝主席指導啊大家一起給他掌聲鼓勵鼓勵啊我告訴你"},{"start":567.731,"end":587.731,"text":"八千億的坑哪裡來的啊八千億的坑就是今天法務部檢查系統你們怠惰造成的啦今天你好好抓綠人小老鼠綠人大老鼠你積極主動一點阿現在不抓了嗎阿你抓一隻小老鼠更大尾的你告現在給我吱吱嗚嗚但抓一個小老鼠九年抓一隻小老鼠很驕傲啊"},{"start":588.732,"end":605.627,"text":"很驕傲啊我知道啊 9年很困難啊柯文哲跟黃綠錦如就不困難啊還有韋兆文書1000萬交保 超級不困難啊完全沒有違和感啊國民黨的黨工 被你們抓200多個約談對不對 起訴30個人 也不困難啊只有遇到藍的困難啦遇到綠的不困難啦 我還不懂"},{"start":615.96,"end":642.23,"text":"最後我要跟我們要尊重檢察官辦案的一個計劃嘛謝謝你啦 遇到綠的案子就尊重檢察官辦案遇到藍的案子基本上就努力用力的死命的往死裡打死裡辦啦我在這邊跟部長直接講一件事情我知道在這個任內你的任內 民進黨任內是無望啦是無望啦講什麼都叫狗吠火車啦"},{"start":643.752,"end":661.904,"text":"但是我今天鄭重跟你保證我會開始推動政治迫害調查委員會我今天就要檢視半藍不半綠然後用偵查公開不正手段來去迫害在野黨迫害政治迫害在野黨這些不屑的辦案人員你當然這樣講"},{"start":667.547,"end":693.643,"text":"這句話交給人民公判啦交給人民公判啦遇到今天民進黨的案子到底我們檢察官辦的情形力度如何我不跟你辯論因為我知道反正你就那三句話結束你叫三句部長啦但是我要跟你講什麼人民看得清清楚楚嘛你有看過一個偽造文書還是一千萬交保的你看過嗎"},{"start":695.404,"end":711.905,"text":"我想今天你看 你看看今天你們對在野黨的方式喔你只要十分之一拿來對付民進黨的貪賭弊案台電八千億的坑就可能補得起來 我告訴你沒有關係 我說過我們不抱任何期待我在這邊就宣誓啊"},{"start":713.413,"end":737.895,"text":"就是要民進黨都可以成立什麼轉型正義委員會不當黨產的委員會一樣啊 重版執政來成立政治迫害委員會啊我這邊也要拜託我告訴各位檢察官很多非常正直的啦我也不是沒有遇到檢察官跟我complain說這幾年人家水生活正直檢察官水生活的所在多有"},{"start":739.008,"end":765.009,"text":"今天我做這件事情是為了政治檢察官因為你如果沒有辦法去約束去讓這些為了求官去向所謂的執政者表態的打手告訴他們你今天所有的清算鬥爭的手法你要付出代價的話我告訴你政治永遠無法清明所以這是我很簡單的一個結論我最後還是要講我在這邊跟你公開推薦一個人"},{"start":766.462,"end":787.364,"text":"王俊麗一定要保他 重用他 為什麼喔 育人小老鼠等到罷免案之後再辦啊 非常好但是羅志強你等不及啊7月30日發一個莫名其妙的公文要查我公車廣告的資金 欸 奇怪啦不然你總有法律常識吧"},{"start":789.897,"end":810.052,"text":"競選當天有沒有所謂的宣傳罷免或選舉那是行政罰款吧 沒錯吧是不是啊 沒錯吧是啦那我想請問你啊我很抱歉啊那請問7月31號這麼火速火急啊我謝謝王俊麗的積極認識啦謝謝你 以上好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時28分）有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，在正式開始質詢之前，我想先講一個台電的鬼故事給你聽。你知道台電長年以來一直都是我們國家收入的金雞母、國營事業金雞母，你知道到哪一年它開始賠錢的，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：當然你不清楚，它是在2006年開始賠錢的，陳水扁執政，民進黨第一次執政2006年開始賠錢，賠了非常巨額的虧損，最後馬政府上來以後被逼得調漲電價。但是你知道台電這個金雞母是到哪一年從所謂的大錢坑又變回金雞母，你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：對，你一定不知道，是2014年，就馬總統任內把它從賠錢貨又變回金雞母。你知道到馬總統卸任的時候，交了多少盈餘變成電價穩定基金交給蔡英文政府，你知道嗎？你一定不知道對不對？828億的電價穩定基金。可是民進黨執政到現在九年了，你知道台電撥補了多少錢嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：你也不知道？3,000億。然後你知道台電撥補了3,000億之後，現在虧損多少嗎？你也不知道對不對？超過4,500億。給它828億用光光，然後再用納稅錢補3,000億，馬政府的時候一毛錢都沒補。再加上還賠了4,500億以上，加起來的大錢坑就是8,000億。","接下來我就要問你知道的事了，請問你知道8,000億的大錢坑是被哪一個老鼠坑掉的？你知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：你不知道啊？你不知道就該打屁股了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個不是我權管的……"],["羅委員智強：你不知道就該打屁股，為什麼？我講原因給你聽，就是被弊案吞掉的啦！我現在直接跟你講，就是被綠能的小老鼠跟大老鼠一起吞掉的啦！現在抓到一個綠能小老鼠是誰你總知道吧，不會告訴我不知道吧！有一個綠電小老鼠被抓到了啊，是誰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：鄭姓的嫌犯嘛！"],["羅委員智強：對啊，鄭亦麟啊！喬供電啦，好偉大啊！收賄貪污，難怪台電一直虧錢，全部去養這種綠能老鼠，這已經是綠能產業結構性的貪腐。抱歉，我看到我們的法務部、我們的檢調，對於這8,000億的老鼠坑事實上要拖三拖四……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會啦！跟委員報告，其實像某核電廠的某位廠長我們也辦了嘛！"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我再問你，這位小老鼠不到30歲就擔任行政院能源減碳辦公室主任，外界稱他是「小英男孩」，背景深厚、「喬」供電、貪污收賄、坐擁鉅產！沒有關係，我想請問法務部，針對這個案子有沒有向上溯源擴大偵辦？我先把問題問完，你等一下再回答。一個小英男孩就有辦法做到這件事？有沒有其他黨政人士涉入？部長回答之前，我先幫你回答，你會說個案不評論，你會說偵查不公開，對不對？我猜中了沒？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想有證據就一定向上溯源嘛！"],["羅委員智強：好，第三句是證據到哪兒辦到哪兒。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊！今天新聞不是就出來了，包括鄭姓嫌犯以及某建設公司的那對父子已經羈押禁見了，這就彰顯我們就是要向上溯源……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我直接告訴你啦！沒關係，我要告訴你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個案件我們要再做一個思考嘛……"],["羅委員智強：外界看你們檢察官在辦事嘛！今天王俊力有沒有施壓說罷免期間不要動，罷免期後再動，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不要去做一個揣測啦……"],["羅委員智強：你幫王俊力背書嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不要去揣測啦！"],["羅委員智強：我不用去揣測，你幫他背書嘛，你就說絕對沒有！"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然是……這個怎麼可能……"],["羅委員智強：你就直接講絕對沒有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不要去揣測說怎麼做政治上的考量……"],["羅委員智強：這麼巧啊，罷免期間……針對這個案件，請問綠能小老鼠偷吃台電偷吃了多少年？他偷吃了多久？你告訴大家，總知道吧！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案件我不清楚……"],["羅委員智強：你看嘛，又來了！個案不清楚、偵查不公開，只有一個情況之下你們的偵查會公開啦，辦柯文哲、辦黃呂錦茹，偵查就一定公開，報紙就報滿滿啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有公開，我們是嚴守偵查不公開……"],["羅委員智強：今天遇到民進黨的綠能弊案就偵查不公開、個案不評論、證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡，你說這三句話就結束！說真的，整個質詢你在那邊用三句話就可以結束啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有辦法去指導和介入嘛！"],["羅委員智強：來，我要請問你，有沒有其他政府人士、黨政人士涉入？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["羅委員智強：個案不評論、偵查不公開？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看案件證據的……"],["羅委員智強：證據到哪兒辦到哪兒，好，結束！我問你，你也回答了。","鄭姓嫌犯被搜索時，竟然對調查人員嗆聲：「你知道我背後是誰嗎？」我想請問，你知道他背後是誰嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員智強：他背後就是民進黨啊！他背後就是權貴！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這整個要由檢察官依法蒐集證據去認定事實嘛！"],["羅委員智強：行政院能源減碳辦公室是不是政府職務？是不是？30歲不到就可以去當行政院能源減碳辦公室主任，背景深厚啊！權貴啊！綠友友啊！黨政關係好啊！沒有上限天花板，該辦就辦嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：勿枉勿縱嘛，有證據就辦……"],["羅委員智強：非常好，你終於講一句我認同的話。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有證據就辦，這不分黨派，就有證據……"],["羅委員智強：向上辦啦！來，沒關係，我告訴你有一個人期待你向上辦，你知道是誰嗎？有一個人期待你向上辦，你知道是誰嗎？你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有這個問題嗎？"],["羅委員智強：郭智輝啊！郭智輝講了啊！我為什麼一直講綠能小老鼠？郭智輝跟你講有綠能大老鼠，更大尾的在後面啊！郭智輝什麼時候約談？是不是又要說個案不評論、偵查不公開、有證據到哪兒辦到哪兒？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法幫檢察官回答這個問題。"],["羅委員智強：我懂啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法，你卻一直問我，我又不是承辦人……"],["羅委員智強：我懂啊！這一年多跟部長相處，我怎麼會不了解你？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我是反映政策面的嘛，對個案我怎麼……"],["羅委員智強：你看我都幫你回答，我對你多體貼！我看連吳宗憲主席都可以幫你回答了，我要不要點他起來幫你回答？綠能大老鼠……請教主席，會議詢問……"],["鄭部長銘謙：主席也知道嘛！我怎麼去處理這些問題呢？"],["羅委員智強：綠能大老鼠是這樣，部長的回答就是三句話就結束啊！他就這樣三句話結束啊！","好啦，沒事了，主席請坐，其實只是拿你做個示範。因為主席也都面對你這樣的回答，每一個人都面對你這樣的回答，三句金句結束。我常常在講，我們的法務部長乾脆直接在背後貼一個背板，每個委員上來質詢，你就秀出「偵查不公開、個案不評論、有證據到哪兒辦到哪兒」這三句，然後每個委員問完，你就說三句任選，這樣就結束了嘛，質詢就很好過啊！那我就要問了，郭智輝說還有更大尾的綠能大老鼠，請問檢察官該不該辦、該不該約談？你也是檢察系統出身的人，他都已經跟你講有更大尾的，要不要辦嘛？我不問個案喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為如果檢察官有這個需要，檢察官會有他的偵查程序，這個我們尊重嘛！"],["羅委員智強：這個我就要會議詢問了，沒辦法！抱歉，因為我沒幹過檢察官，所以我不知道，也許我才疏學淺、知識短陋，當今天綠能小老鼠已經被抓到偷吃綠能、偷吃台電、挖台電的錢、造成台電的虧損，而經濟部長郭智輝說還有更大尾的，一個正常的檢察官會不會辦他、會不會約談他？起碼會約談吧？會不會約談他？我不知道檢察官的實務。"],["主席：檢察官可以主動剪報分案，分案之後當然可以傳訊，因為可以把他當作證人的身分傳喚。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，謝謝，你看回答得多好！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法去指導檢察官說這個你要傳、那個你不要傳嘛！"],["羅委員智強：我沒有叫你指導個案，我要問你的是原則嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你就是要我去指導個案，我沒辦法去處理嘛！"],["羅委員智強：你看看主席原則性講得多好，剪報分案就可以了啊！你跟我這樣回答，我也滿意啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在檢察官已經在偵辦中，他不是也搜索……"],["羅委員智強：你要等到主席講完以後才要跟進也不錯啦，主席指導你，我覺得你講得也蠻好的啊！謝謝主席指導，大家一起給他掌聲鼓勵鼓勵。","我告訴你，8,000億的坑哪裡來的？8,000億的坑就是法務部檢察系統怠惰造成的啦！今天你好好抓綠能小老鼠、綠能大老鼠，積極主動一點……"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在不是抓了嗎？"],["羅委員智強：你抓一隻小老鼠，更大尾的你到現在給我支支吾吾！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個要請檢察署蒐集證據嘛！"],["羅委員智強：九年抓一隻小老鼠很驕傲啊！很驕傲啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不知道蒐證的時候多困難。"],["羅委員智強：我知道啊，九年很困難啊！柯文哲跟黃呂錦茹就不困難啊！還有偽造文書1,000萬交保超級不困難啊！完全沒有違和感啊！國民黨的黨工被你們約談兩百多個，起訴30個人也不困難啊！只有遇到藍的困難，遇到綠的不困難啦，我還不懂嗎？最後我要……"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官要蒐證，所以我們要尊重檢察官辦案的計畫……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你、謝謝你啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你一直要我去介入指導、干涉個案嘛，對不對？"],["羅委員智強：遇到綠的案子就尊重檢察官辦案，遇到藍的案子基本上就努力、用力、死命的往死裡打往死裡辦啦！我在這邊跟部長直接講一件事情，我知道在你的任內、在民進黨任內是無望啦，講什麼都是在狗吠火車，但是我在這邊鄭重跟你保證，我會開始推動政治迫害調查委員會，我今天就要檢視辦藍不辦綠，然後用偵查公開、不正手段去政治迫害在野黨，這些不肖的辦案人員……"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官辦案不分黨派，你很清楚啦！不分黨派啦！"],["羅委員智強：你當然這樣講，這句話交給人民公判啦……"],["鄭部長銘謙：不分黨派啦！各黨派都有嘛！重點不是……"],["羅委員智強：交給人民公判啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有涉及犯罪的話，都有辦嘛！"],["羅委員智強：遇到今天民進黨的案子，我們檢察官辦的情形、力度到底如何？我不跟你辯論，因為我知道反正你就是講那三句話然後結束，你叫「三句部長」啦！但是我要跟你講什麼？人民看得清清楚楚啊！你有看過一個偽造文書案是以1,000萬元交保的，你看過嗎？我也建議你看看今天你們對在野黨的方式，你只要拿十分之一來對付民進黨的貪瀆弊案，我告訴你，台電8,000億的坑就可能補得起來。沒有關係，我說過我們不抱任何期待，我在這邊就宣示啊！民進黨都可以成立什麼促進轉型正義委員會、不當黨產處理委員會，一樣啊！重返執政來成立政治迫害委員會啊！我在這邊也要拜託，我告訴各位，有很多非常正直的檢察官，我也不是沒有遇到檢察官跟我complain說這幾年水深火熱，陷於水深火熱的正直檢察官所在多有啦！今天我做這件事情，是為了正直的檢察官，因為如果你沒有辦法去約束這些為了求官而向所謂的執政者表態的打手，告訴他們：「你今天用清算、鬥爭的手法，你就要付出代價」，我告訴你，政治永遠無法清明，這是我很簡單的一個結論。","我最後還是要講，我在這邊跟你公開推薦一個人，對王俊力這個人一定要保他、重用他，為什麼？綠能小老鼠等到罷免案之後再辦，非常好！但是對羅智強就等不及啊！7月31號發一個莫名其妙的公文，要查我公車廣告的資金，奇怪啦！部長，你總是有法律常識吧！在競選當天有沒有所謂的宣傳罷免或選舉，那是行政罰款，沒錯吧？是不是？沒錯吧？是啦！那我想請問你，我很抱歉啊！請問7月31號這麼火速、火急，我謝謝王俊力的積極任事啦！謝謝你，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位我們請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","好，所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","我們依照先前的宣告先休息5分鐘，在休息5分鐘之後進行討論事項。","休息（11時42分）","繼續開會（11時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}},{"id":"163671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a650eb58af8d4872354c18dc12f595704a3da050b201225444178053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:33:42 - 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要了2.95億的預算我也覺得寫得不新不楚這個跟委員說明這不是NCC提出來是這三家業者組成了一個叫不是 我的意思是說這次要2.95億的預算這次我們不是在討論特別預算嗎"},{"start":156.36,"end":173.428,"text":"那寫了幾頁就要2.95億其實我的看法跟主委是一樣的這個NCC不能僅憑一張簡報就籠統帶過要求編3億元的補助我跟委員報告這錢是這三家業者要求的補助並不是NCC要使用"},{"start":174.244,"end":192.997,"text":"沒有 那NCC也要補助啊 對不對它是就是三家業者 補助這三家業者所以我們才認為說它應該有一個詳盡的說明跟未來面對這種那如果沒有提出詳盡計畫的話我們今天要給它補助嗎我們會因為我看它的這個計畫裡面的補助業者是大概有49%耶"},{"start":194.978,"end":223.36,"text":"就是說他目前還沒有提出來嘛然後也要看沒有提出來我們今天就不用審了啊NCC的2.951就不用審了啊不是就是這個整個預算編在這裡嘛至於將來要補助到什麼程度來 主委你也不用幫他講話了我請他來這個帶主委來講話但是我是認同你的想法啦跟委員報告那這個補助案主要的原因是因為為什麼要補助業者是因為他在栽房法補助業者有多少"},{"start":227.181,"end":231.805,"text":"為什麼要補助他們到2.75億他們掙錢是有給政府嗎補助的比例多高為什麼要補助到49%這個民間業者他們不是應該要做修復的嗎為什麼是由政府來補助勒"},{"start":246.955,"end":263.868,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛講說在災防法裡頭它的角色跟一般公共設施一樣跟水電一樣我們希望加快修復速度它不是水電台水跟台電它是屬於這個公務機關它們不是公務機關啊對 但是在災防法裡頭它的角色是一樣的是公共設施"},{"start":265.402,"end":289.894,"text":"九色是一樣的 你捕捉高達49%剛才提的就是說 災防法裡面就是說當災害發生的時候為了因應 為了改善相關主管機關可以要求電信列車配合做若干措施來修復這些電信或保證現在就是修復太慢了嘛對 就是因為修復慢而且那是既有設施的損壞所以我們才要說"},{"start":290.734,"end":312.407,"text":"他必須提出來因為依據災防法是當然是相關主管機關要付費主委啊我對於這筆預算我也有意見那最後再請教一下這個陳代理主委現在這個有關民間業者我們要求這個災區要漫遊是不是這個雙方有談不攏啊中華電信跟這個遠傳有談不攏啊"},{"start":313.938,"end":332.947,"text":"跟委員報告這個是因為是第一次在災難漫遊是第一次啟動我們在8月5號的新聞稿有提到說那我問一下費用是由誰出漫遊到中華電信費用由誰出其實漫遊的部分我們是建議他們去協商那我們現在也訂了SOP的要點希望他們可以用協商來處理那這是漫遊8月7號之後漫遊誰來出"},{"start":334.181,"end":350.199,"text":"目前是三家業者協商是由原來的母網的人來處理誰假設我是中華電信我們漫遊到遠傳的話那錢是中華電信來出目前是這樣子但是我們並沒有強制他們這樣不是兩家業者就搭中華電信的順風車了嗎"},{"start":354.766,"end":362.56,"text":"換個角度來講其實不是這樣子其實三大業者我時間到了你這個規範要點這個如果出來之後再給我一份我會繼續再追問來 謝謝 謝謝兩位主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時27分）好，謝謝主席。請工程會的陳主委，還有NCC的陳代理主委。"],["主席：好，請兩位主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好，兩位主委好。我先請教一下工程會主委，我有看到報導說NCC這一次提出2.95億的預算，但是行政院在25日開會的時候，認為補助有線電視系統及電信業者修復通訊設施，但是他們的復原速度不如預期，加上NCC也未能說明費用的估算方式與後續的改善措施，被行政院要求補件，在提出具體計畫之前暫緩核定。請問一下主委，有沒有這件事情？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是內部會議，只是要求3家電信業者提出比較詳盡的災損過程、修復進度跟未來計畫，並沒有說不核定這件事情。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，我看主委還講說這些民間業者應該是要罰款，而不是補助，主委現在是不是還是維持這個態度？"],["陳主任委員金德：的確是修復得太慢了。"],["李委員坤城：對啊。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為我們幾次到災區，看不出這3家電信業者包括中華電信、台哥大及遠傳，好像沒有看到什麼積極的態度在修繕。"],["李委員坤城：主委你是在前進指揮所，你在第一線，所以你看得最清楚，看得也比我清楚。但是我認同你的想法，我也認同你的意見，這些電信業者修復的速度太慢，而且我看到NCC的預算表，短短幾頁要了2.95億的預算，我也覺得寫得不清不楚。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員說明，這不是NCC提出來，是這三家業者組成了一個叫……"],["李委員坤城：不是，我的意思是說這次要2.95億的預算，我們不是在討論特別預算嗎？寫了幾頁就要2.95億，其實我的看法跟主委是一樣的，NCC不能僅憑1張簡報就籠統帶過，要求編3億元的補助。"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，這錢是3家業者要求的補助，並不是NCC要使用。"],["李委員坤城：所以NCC也要補助啊，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，就是補助這3家業者，所以我們才認為說它應該要有一個詳盡的說明，跟未來面對這種災損的時候……"],["李委員坤城：如果沒有提出詳盡計畫的話，我們今天要給他補助嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會……"],["李委員坤城：因為我看這個計畫裡面，補助業者大概有49%耶！"],["陳主任委員金德：就是說它目前還沒有提出來嘛，然後也要看……"],["李委員坤城：沒有提出來，我們今天就不用審啊，NCC的2.95億就不用審了啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，就是這整個預算編在這裡，至於將來要補助到什麼程度……"],["李委員坤城：主委，你也不用幫他講話，我請代主委來講話。但是我是認同你的想法啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這個補助案主要的原因是……"],["李委員坤城：為什麼要補助業者？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是因為在災防法……"],["李委員坤城：補助業者有多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：電信業者2.75億。"],["李委員坤城：為什麼要補助他們到2.75億？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為在災防法第二十七條……"],["李委員坤城：他們賺錢的時候有給政府嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：第一項第十二款，它是公共設施，跟水、電一樣……"],["李委員坤城：補助的比例多高？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：49%。"],["李委員坤城：為什麼要補助到49%？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們希望他……"],["李委員坤城：這個不是民間業者應該要做修復的嗎？為什麼是由政府來補助呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，剛剛講說在災防法裡頭，它的角色跟一般公共設施一樣、跟水、電一樣，我們希望加快修復速度，希望它……"],["李委員坤城：它不是水、電，台水跟台電，他們是屬於公務機關，它不是公務機關啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，但是在災防法裡頭，它的角色是一樣的，是公共設施。"],["李委員坤城：角色是一樣的，但你補助高達49%耶！"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，在災防法裡面，當災害發生的時候，為了因應、為了改善，相關主管機關可以要求電信業者配合做若干措施來修復這些電信或保證，但是……"],["李委員坤城：現在就是修復太慢了。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，就是因為修復慢，而且那是既有設施的損壞，所以我們才說它必須提出來，依據災防法，當然是相關主管機關要付費，但是因為它修復慢，所以要請它說明。"],["李委員坤城：主委，對於這筆預算，我也有意見。"],["陳主任委員金德：是。"],["李委員坤城：最後請教陳代理主委，現在有關民間業者，我們要求災區要漫遊，是不是雙方有談不攏？中華電信跟遠傳有談不攏？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，因為災區漫遊是第一次啟動，我們在8月5日的新聞稿有提到……"],["李委員坤城：我問一下，費用是由誰出？漫遊到中華電信，費用由誰出？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：其實漫遊的部分，我們是建議他們去協商，我們現在也訂SOP的要點，希望他們可以用協商的方式來處理。"],["李委員坤城：8月7日之後的漫遊是由誰來出？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：目前是3家業者協商，目前協商結果是由原來母網的人來處理。"],["李委員坤城：誰？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：母網，就是假設我是中華電信，我漫遊到遠傳的話，錢是中華電信來出，目前是這樣子，但是我們並沒有強制他們，是希望他們來協商。"],["李委員坤城：這樣不是兩家業者又搭中華電信的順風車了嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：換個角度來講，其實不是這樣子，其實三大業者……"],["李委員坤城：好啦！我時間到了，你這個規範要點出來之後再給我一份，我會繼續再追問，謝謝兩位主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","再來請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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start":80.498,"end":108.419,"text":"所以檢察界檢察官律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對為個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁"},{"start":110.089,"end":137.676,"text":"世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁"},{"start":138.576,"end":152.267,"text":"但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對"},{"start":154.229,"end":178.345,"text":"我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量"},{"start":180.27,"end":201.058,"text":"我告訴你 部長 我很擔心我們這一年半來都是這樣下個會期他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推 是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外你們能做什麼 部長"},{"start":202.998,"end":229.597,"text":"後患無窮 以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到 大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到 即便通過了打炸四法但是來補了這一槍 把詐騙集團全部都可以逃 都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任 還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有 負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長 我不是要為難您"},{"start":231.414,"end":249.127,"text":"我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他We can't do more是這樣嗎Can we do more行政部門可以多做什麼 部長"},{"start":250.659,"end":278.379,"text":"委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是勾理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長"},{"start":279.46,"end":300.327,"text":"我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過"},{"start":304.929,"end":321.164,"text":"不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們"},{"start":323.085,"end":352.305,"text":"讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整"},{"start":353.085,"end":380.663,"text":"我相信我們的召委 出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通 都可以對話而不是只有反對 好嗎這是我的期許 下面終身監禁的制度 我支持但是草率倉促的修法 我反對我的主張 要有院版 要有公聽會也要有配套 才能上路 下一頁"},{"start":382.14,"end":394.694,"text":"這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核限之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧"},{"start":395.723,"end":417.094,"text":"我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳宗雄委員所提的這個議案"},{"start":419.454,"end":431.716,"text":"的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑"},{"start":433.689,"end":454.268,"text":"這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度喔你們有願版嘛對不對有不版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎不版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法監獄刑刑法也有"},{"start":455.089,"end":478.421,"text":"然後呢法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未來我也在這裡對於我們的召委還有其他司法委員會的成員來呼籲整個制度要配套是四個法可能都要一起來思考而不要只單從某一步法就為快而快下一頁"},{"start":479.882,"end":504.118,"text":"這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲"},{"start":504.998,"end":533.026,"text":"朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度YES YES YES但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快為修而修NO NO NO"},{"start":534.383,"end":543.219,"text":"要正院版 你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院 院還要再會嫌司法院"},{"start":544.537,"end":569.198,"text":"我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎對不對第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比拼一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit"},{"start":570.098,"end":594.666,"text":"這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎"},{"start":596.366,"end":620.756,"text":"這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好 最後兩頁喔 下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁"},{"start":621.756,"end":648.663,"text":"所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個一個一個那個"},{"start":650.499,"end":672.486,"text":"所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁"},{"start":673.326,"end":686.597,"text":"法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理"},{"start":687.682,"end":706.978,"text":"受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yes yes yes但是草率仓促的修法"},{"start":707.719,"end":735.494,"text":"沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路"},{"start":736.215,"end":755.88,"text":"只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛"},{"start":757.54,"end":781.396,"text":"我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時15分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長、大家辛苦了。我想司法及法制委員會從這一屆會期開始到今天還有明天，恐怕就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末最後兩次開會，我還是要表達一下立場。我還是很遺憾，一再有委員為個案在質詢臺上為難您。我再一次呼籲，我們在司法及法制委員會要就制度面，而不要講個別的案件。尊重司法的獨立辦案，政治力不要干預司法，我再一次強調，即便這已經說了N遍，還是要表達本席，當然也是民進黨團的立場。","進入今天的主題之前，我先來拋出這個疑問，我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題。民眾黨提案「勾串共犯或證人要免羈押」的這個修法，涉及為一人修法、為個案開脫，大開法治的倒車，甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇，所以檢察界、檢察官、律師界大家繼法庭直播第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後，再一次又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯。我想我們反對為個案修法，也反對這種黑化臺灣、縱容犯罪的粗糙修法，我們的立場是一致的。","本頁簡報的內容是世界各國都有這樣的羈押事由，我也不再贅述。再來下一頁，這也是你們整理出來的，如果這個修法倉促地通過，嫌疑犯全放，詐騙集團笑嘻嘻、販毒集團抓不到、虐童犯可能被輕放，共諜案也好，高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法。但我要問的問題是，當社會不滿，立法院要強推，我看到行政院、法務部有發正式的聲明反對，我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長，但我依舊會是司法及法制委員會的成員，這個勾串免羈押的修法即便引爆了社會的不滿，但是立院如果還是要強推，你們能做什麼？對於法務部來講，你們就是發了一個聲明，說你們不同意、不支持，請大院考量。我告訴你，部長，我很擔心，我們這一年半來都是這樣，下個會期他們就是繼續強推，不聽社會的意見，而且不只強推，是快速推，政院沒有其他的方式了嗎？除了發聲明之外，你們能做什麼？部長，後患無窮，以後爛攤也要你們收拾，罪犯抓不到，大家都來罵法務部，詐騙案抓不到，即便通過了打詐四法，但是補了這一槍，詐騙集團全部都可以逃、都可以放，最後還是行政部門承擔。立法院的不負責任還是行政部門要承擔！我們負有維護治安的責任，我真的很語重心長，我不是要為難您，我要提醒行政院，我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步，認為立法院提出來惡修的法律，我們認為不可以，只要說我們的立場就好了，其他We can't do more，是這樣嗎？Can we do more？行政部門可以多做什麼，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的，的確羈押的事由最核心的理由就是勾串證人跟……因為案件辦得成或辦不成，這個是最核心的，如果把最核心的這些羈押的理由拿掉，幾乎無案可辦，幾乎只能辦現行犯抓到的……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我們都在說它的可怕……"],["鄭部長銘謙：非常可怕。"],["吳委員思瑤：它後患無窮。我在這裡提醒部長，這一年半來，我也一直在反省，我作為黨鞭的三個會期，當我們只是反對，當我們只是期期以為不可，他們還是硬幹，我希望法務部、司法院不是只有發發聲明而已。部長，你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過？不要放棄任何的努力！我知道很困難，我今天以即將卸任的黨鞭身分，真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了。如果只是束手無策，他就是強推，不要忘了，最後善後的是我們、擦屁股的是我們。讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果，作為負責任的執政黨，我們擔不起，即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠，好好去想這個問題。本來很擔心逕付二讀，暫時沒有，但是下個會期就是箭在弦上的修法，而且是惡修。我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對，然後在修的時候莫可奈何。我希望調整，我相信我們的召委出身檢察界，他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見，大家都可以溝通、都可以對話，而不是只有反對，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是我的期許。再來，終身監禁的制度，我支持，但是草率倉促的修法，我反對！我的主張：要有院版、要有公聽會，也要有配套才能上路，這個是憲判8的結果，所以死刑合憲之後，我們要補強相關的法制。","這張PPT我已經放了大概10次了吧，我們要尊重憲法判決的結果，啟動制度的配套，要修法就修法，而且要從長計議、妥善溝通、設立配套，要避免冤獄的產生，要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責，更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化，就是今天吳宗憲委員所提的這個議案──終身監禁的制度。所以除了落實刑法、刑事訴訟法、法院組織法，乃至於監獄行刑法都要修，今天的無期徒刑終身監禁不得假釋的制度，你們有院版嘛，對不對？有部版嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那是只有刑法，針對整個憲判8相關的法制配套，只有針對刑法提出來嗎？部版還有哪些其他的研議？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是刑法。"],["吳委員思瑤：就只有刑法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有監獄行刑法。"],["吳委員思瑤：監獄行刑法也有，然後呢？法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是司法院的主管法規。"],["吳委員思瑤：是司法院，好，所以我期待未來，我也在這裡對我們的召委還有其他司法及法制委員會的成員呼籲，整個制度要配套，是四個法可能都要一起來思考，而不要只單從某一部法就為快而快。","再來是民間有很多停看聽的呼籲，既然民間有這麼多的聲音，就讓聲音來百花齊放。我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台，是革新制度最重要的場域，公聽會是有必要的，呼籲朝野各黨支持，也呼籲主席能夠召開公聽會。","回到政策面，我再一次說，建立終身監禁的制度Yes、Yes、Yes！但是草率倉促的修法，不聽社會的建議，單一從一部法直接為快而快、為修而修，No、No、No！要政院版，你們已經在進行當中，未來部版送行政院，院還要再會銜司法院，我們來加緊進行，但是我認為這個重大的司法制度變革要有院版來併案審查，您同意嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：第二，要公聽會，如果委員對自己的版本有信心，院版對自己的制度有信心，共同來接受社會各界的比評，一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好，這不是誰的credit，這是國家制度，我們一起讓它共好。第三，要配套，不只修刑法，還要分則編、特別刑法的配套，還有執行機關、矯正單位的所有制度配套。簡單來講，配套分兩部分，一部分是法制面的配套，一部分是執行實務面的配套，您同意我這三個訴求嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果能夠這樣做的話是非常周延。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，最後兩頁，現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑分在很多個法，但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準，所以只處理分級，不處理這些內容，把所有的裁量權都丟給法官，所以未來不限罪名都由法官自己去裁量。您認為會不會造成法官難為，甚至法官就不宣告、不宣判，它就形同虛設了，會不會可能有這個後果？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是擔心，因為我們一直認為假釋是執行面的問題，這個不是一個裁判……因為沒辦法去預知後來他教化的……"],["吳委員思瑤：可能……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們是限縮在故意殺人跟……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，傷害生命法益。"],["鄭部長銘謙：傷害生命法益這部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這部分我們是限縮在這種，因為這是老百姓最擔心的，他非常的危險。"],["吳委員思瑤：是、好，所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的。最後回到這一頁，法規面要配套，不是只修刑法，而且不是只聚焦第七十七條就能夠一步到位，甚至對於未來實務的執行面，對於整個監所的管理、受刑人的教化，它涉及人力、物力、空間跟預算的投入，都需要完整的制度配套。再一次呼籲，建立終身監禁的制度，回應社會的訴求，Yes、Yes、Yes！但是草率倉促的修法，沒有等院版來，就用委員的版本來直接審查，我認為這會有很大的風險，所以要公聽會，要制度的配套，要等院版，再次提出我的呼籲。","然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押，到這一題終身監禁的制度，我都希望法務部不能夠再走回過去的老路，只是反對，我們要想出新的方法。我作為執政黨鞭，我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續對話或是引進民間的聲音，一起來督促立法院把法修好，而不是把法搞爛。我們要向社會論述，也要向國會尋求合作，這是我這一年半來的反思，否則如果只是提出反對的意見，在野強推，最後還是我們要收拾爛攤，我不樂見。我們不能改變別人，我們先改變我們自己的作法，我知道很難，但我們一起加油，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請羅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}},{"id":"163668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a65053a7d567495f153318dc12f595704a3da050b20122544417b88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:21:37 - 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出來102億然後兩年內要完成的部分那我想請教就是說未來"},{"start":107.216,"end":123.792,"text":"是不是只要就是說針對西部地區的這些縣市電線桿地下化未來是我們的目標像彰化的部分我覺得應該也要去特別去重視因為"},{"start":125.733,"end":151.633,"text":"每一次颱風來如果是從西部上來的話真的都會非常的嚴重我記得那一次的停電停了十幾天我們彰化沿海地區很多都是養殖馬達沒辦法運作就會造成很大的漁業上的很大的損失我是不是可以請次長針對這部分你是不是先回應一下好"},{"start":152.453,"end":165.588,"text":"跟委員報告 卓院長已經有指示台電針對電纜地下化的部分他們要提出一個評估報告剛剛曾董事長也提到說他們兩個月之內就會提出這個評估報告"},{"start":167.59,"end":185.046,"text":"這個電腦地下化確實是未來我們台電在增加電網真的是一個很重要的一個方向但是它也會涉及到哪些地區適合地下化哪些不適合我想在評估報告裡面我們都會提出來"},{"start":186.307,"end":197.207,"text":"另外就是說其實你們有提到這個兩年的部分其實台電的公班或者是你們委外有辦法在這兩年內去完成嗎這個是我質疑的地方"},{"start":197.813,"end":219.855,"text":"報告委員你問到很內行的問題就是說確實就是這個工程非常的龐大因為我們的工班其實都有很多原來就已經規劃好的工作要執行那但是他遇到這一次特殊的狀況我們在思考有什麼方法就在工程的程序上面都能夠比較迅速而且簡化那也跟委員報告"},{"start":221.476,"end":245.605,"text":"我們這次挑選的主要是公路就是交通部所主管的過去叫做省道就是台17台19等等的線路我們會去請求交通部的一些協助讓我們在路權路政上面等等能夠有比較同步的做一些同時開發的工作然後把一個工程做比較妥善的發包如果沒有辦法做一個完整的規劃跟同時工作的話其實時間上是非常非常緊迫的"},{"start":248.246,"end":262.841,"text":"是 其實就目前台電本身你們所有的這個工程你們都已經讓這個地方的民眾如果他們有申請要接電什麼之類的這個工程可能他們都會覺得說台電的動作都很慢了"},{"start":263.983,"end":285.578,"text":"那如果你又額外增加這些工作那你們是不是也要針對工班的部分是不是也要人力的部分也要增加所以剛才跟您提到就是發包的部分因為它有兩個部分一個部分是土建另外一個部分是電器那土建的部分是不是能夠有一些人力的增加那我們會一起來思考"},{"start":286.158,"end":313.251,"text":"是好我希望就是說這個當然跟你們目前既有的這些工程民眾申請的這些工程你們不要說因為做這個然後就把另外的原本既有的這些民眾申請的這些案件然後就會delay我不希望這樣子因為也造成我們的困擾你知道嗎委員因為我們需要找我們需要找一些其他部會真的是在院裡面做一次安排跟協助因為"},{"start":314.631,"end":342.17,"text":"這裡會增加非常多土建的一些相關的工作那我們能不能夠有一個計畫性的來有移工等等來協助這一個部分其實我們一開始在講這個工作的時候就已經設想到就盡量不要排擠到我們既有的工程好 謝謝那我再請教次長到了對 我們只有五分鐘因為今天要省運算所以時間我們大家抓緊一點好 謝謝紅袖分委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時21分）謝謝主席。我們先請經濟部次長。"],["主席：請經濟部次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長好。次長，這一次的風災，無論是颱風剛剛經過造成南部地區的損失，還是隔天中部地區彰化、臺中因為西南氣流的關係，淹水非常的嚴重。我想請教台電電網的部分，我記得在2016年9月的梅姬颱風，整個彰化的沿海鄉鎮1公里裡面就斷了21支的電桿，當時行政院也有下鄉去看，有提到未來彰化西南角這個部分的電線桿要地下化。我看到這一次的特別預算有特別針對電線桿電纜地下化提出102億，然後2年內要完成的部分，我想請教，未來是不是針對西部地區這些縣市，電線桿地下化是我們未來的目標嘛！像彰化的部分，我覺得應該也要特別重視，因為每一次颱風如果是從西部上來的話都會非常嚴重。我記得那次停電十幾天，而彰化沿海地區很多都是養殖業，馬達沒辦法運作就會造成漁業上很大的損失，是不是可以請次長針對這部分先回應一下？"],["何次長晉滄：好，跟委員報告，卓院長已經有指示台電針對電纜地下化的部分要提出評估報告，剛剛曾董事長也提到說他們2個月之內就會提出評估報告。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何次長晉滄：我想電纜地下化確實是未來我們台電在增加電網韌性上很重要的一個方向，但是也會涉及到哪些地區適合地地下化，哪些不適合？我想我們在評估報告裡面都會提出來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。另外就是你們有提到2年的部分，台電的工班或者是委外，有辦法在這2年內完成嗎？這個是我質疑的地方。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，你問到很內行的問題。確實這個工程非常龐大，因為我們的工班有很多原來就已經規劃好的工作要執行。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["曾董事長文生：但是遇到這一次特殊的狀況，我們思考有什麼方法，在工程的程序上面能夠比較迅速而且簡化。也跟委員報告，我們這次挑選的主要是公路，交通部主管，過去叫做省道，就是台17、台19等等的線路，我們會請求交通部的一些協助，讓我們在路權、路證上面等等，能夠比較同步地做一些開挖的工作，然後把工程做比較妥善的發包，如果沒有辦法完整規劃跟同時工作的話，其實時間上是非常、非常緊迫。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，其實就目前台電本身所有的工程，地方民眾如果有申請接電什麼之類的工程，他們可能都會覺得說台電的動作都很慢了，如果你又額外增加這些工作，針對工班的人力部分是不是也要增加？"],["曾董事長文生：所以剛才跟您提到的就是發包的部分，因為它有兩個部分，一個部分是土建，另外一個部分是電氣。土建的部分是不是能夠有一些人力的增加，我們會一起來思考。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我希望就是說目前既有的這些工程、民眾申請的這些工程，你們不要因為做這個，然後delay原本既有的民眾申請案件，我不希望這樣子，因為也造成我們的困擾，你知道嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我了解。委員，因為我們需要找一些其他部會，在院裡面真的做一次安排跟協助，因為這裡會增加非常多土建的相關工作。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["曾董事長文生：那我們能不能夠有計畫性的有移工等等來協助這個部分，其實我們一開始在講這個工作的時候，就已經設想到儘量不要排擠到既有的工程。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。我再請教次長，時間到了？"],["主席：對，我們只有5分鐘，因為今天要審預算，所以時間大家抓緊一點。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：好，謝謝。再來請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長委員好是 部長你好我想就是您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋"},{"start":34.421,"end":61.469,"text":"那麼而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告"},{"start":62.429,"end":84.916,"text":"先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是"},{"start":85.856,"end":108.054,"text":"那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的議職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好 這邊我想提醒部長"},{"start":110.316,"end":129.781,"text":"就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告對其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的"},{"start":131.439,"end":158.15,"text":"這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關的法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊"},{"start":159.884,"end":174.927,"text":"各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多"},{"start":183.889,"end":198.506,"text":"包括游玉蘭 游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得甲式A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修得能夠能夠有這個那個回覆民意的要求"},{"start":198.986,"end":201.427,"text":"對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時"},{"start":220.295,"end":228.301,"text":"在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑"},{"start":240.069,"end":256.589,"text":"目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年那麼這個在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友"},{"start":259.592,"end":274.2,"text":"連署說主張要增修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不"},{"start":275.461,"end":292.551,"text":"符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋"},{"start":293.331,"end":319.367,"text":"然後所以這時候又開始轉變就是說其實可以似乎是可以贊成不得假設的修法可是你們既然贊成了不得假設修法那中間又有些不同差別一開始也是想說可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別然後到去年的這個後來又到了11月又說是可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假設的方向推動修法"},{"start":319.807,"end":332.833,"text":"所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在法務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎"},{"start":334.035,"end":356.737,"text":"三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期或10年以上有期不得假釋所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大"},{"start":357.117,"end":382.04,"text":"那另外那個大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們只要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是說不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動"},{"start":384.061,"end":412.38,"text":"還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何"},{"start":412.681,"end":417.097,"text":"然后待会也请司法院的王副秘书长也来表示一下你们的意见"},{"start":418.224,"end":441.797,"text":"我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是施加身體或心理的一個痛苦那而且這個是對"},{"start":442.737,"end":451.987,"text":"反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪嘛好好謝謝部長您的說明請問那個王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場呢"},{"start":457.087,"end":478.758,"text":"謝謝委員 因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關是那個不是司法院我們尊重那個組織機關的意見那但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要那個思考的就是說那個公正公約第7條還有那個歐洲人權公約第3條他都有禁止酷刑那個處分的那個規定那所以說如果說"},{"start":479.838,"end":502.395,"text":"完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見"},{"start":503.516,"end":522.638,"text":"我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於不得假釋的部分認為是有微細的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長 政部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋"},{"start":523.439,"end":547.27,"text":"其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見"},{"start":550.748,"end":562.567,"text":"定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲"},{"start":568.482,"end":588.398,"text":"包委員 這個是不是違憲 這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個組織力就是我們不是我們組織 我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好 那請"},{"start":593.069,"end":615.23,"text":"部長 如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋 不行不行 不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度 日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒"},{"start":615.911,"end":632.761,"text":"在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋"},{"start":634.042,"end":650.659,"text":"是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有"},{"start":651.4,"end":670.528,"text":"立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時3分）主席好！有請鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好！"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，你好！您去年6月在本院備詢的時候就已經明確承諾，你們會研議有關於凌虐未滿7歲兒童致死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑、死刑，並且明文不得假釋，而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速提出，可是您從去年6月承諾至今，我們都還沒有看到法務部的提案，一直到今天你們的報告裡面才約略提到你們草案的內容、方向，所以在這邊本席想要請教，從去年6月到現在也一年多了，為什麼你們都沒有將草案先預告，讓社會大眾知道你們的修法方向，還有實際的內容是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，其實我們那個草案在去年已經提報行政院審查，現在是第6次的審查會，當然我們不是只有那一條，我們有好幾條的條文，最重要的就是第七十七條和第七十八條之一，另外因為要配合113年憲判8號及2號的意旨，所以我們做一個修法。現在已經進入尾聲了，審竣會再會銜司法院，之後才會送立法院來審議。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想提醒部長，因為我有觀察到，法務部現在所提的修法草案都沒有進行草案預告，其實很多機關不管是修法或者是修辦法，都會有草案預告，過去法務部也曾經有一些法令有做草案預告，為什麼像這麼重要的修法，你們卻沒有做草案預告，讓外界一直在那裡揣測，到底法務部的這個修法內容是什麼、修法方向是什麼？即便您今天有提供所謂的草案條文內容，可是我們根本沒有看到條文實際修改的情況是怎麼樣，現在又說是提報行政院，應該正在聯席會議討論相關法案，那討論那麼多次，到底它的困難點在哪邊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，上次沒有預告是因為有時效性，因為司法及法制委員會委員很關心，很急，我們在搶時效，所以我們很快就把草案提到行政院了，後來發覺假釋的問題其實各方的意見很多，包括游毓蘭前立委也對不得假釋有不同的意見，我想我們站在廣納意見的立場，修法要能夠回應民意的要求……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我了解，謝謝部長。事實上，我們也看到法務部在這個過程當中，你們對於到底能不能假釋、刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法，態度也一直在轉變。我們這邊有大概整理了一下，2016年當時有立法委員提出相關的修法草案，要增訂處以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定，那時候是為了回應小燈泡的事件，法務部當時就說根據歐洲人權法院的見解，無期徒刑且不得假釋的刑責對受刑人而言是一種酷刑，目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定，所以無期徒刑不得假釋恐怕會違反國際人權，是明顯採取反對的立場；到了去年，在公共政策網路參與平台上有數萬名網友連署，主張增修刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條，要將虐童致死者科以死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑，就是不得假釋，當時法務部回應這不符合罪責相當的原則，同樣是採取反對的立場；一直到了今年的6月，您才表示這個部分可以研議，就是虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑、死刑，並且明文不得假釋，所以這時候又開始轉變，似乎是可以贊成不得假釋的修法。","可是你們既然贊成了不得假釋的修法，中間又有些不同差別，一開始也是講可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別，後來到了11月又說可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假釋的方向推動修法，所以反反覆覆的，我們實在不知道現在法務部的立場是什麼。經過行政院這麼多次會議的討論，你們現在的主張跟我們立法委員的提案一樣是採取三級的修法嗎？三個層級，不得假釋？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，因為三個層級當初的立法，我們要限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋，剛才我已經報告過了，其實多次的委員會委員都非常關心，所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑不得假釋。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在又定在針對重大暴力犯罪不得假釋？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，另外大家也關心虐童的那一部分，那時候我們就講，虐殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面。"],["翁委員曉玲：好啦！其實我這樣一路看過來，我覺得法務部在這個議題上面的政策一直反覆，也都沒有一個很明確的中心思想、一個方向，讓本席感受到的是，不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動不得假釋的說法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是要推動啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力？","接下來我要談的是，對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論，就像我剛剛講的，不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院，他們早期的判決也都有針對無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反、有沒有牴觸人性尊嚴的保障，有沒有違憲之虞。所以就這個議題來講，不知道現在法務部的立場是如何？待會也請司法院王副秘書長表示一下你們的意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不認為不得假釋是……"],["翁委員曉玲：有違反人性尊嚴？所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們認為不構成禁止酷刑公約裡面的酷刑，我們認為是這樣，因為這個合乎法治的原則，也不是施加身體或心理的痛苦，而且這個是反映國家對重大罪行的回應，因為這個是屬於人神共憤、天理難容的犯罪嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝部長的說明。請問王副秘書長，司法院的立場呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，因為這部分的修法主責機關不是司法院，我們尊重主責機關的意見，但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要思考的，就是公政公約第七條及歐洲人權公約第三條都有禁止酷刑處分的規定。尤其在歐洲人權公約也有提過，如果是終身監禁，開始執行之後，後面完全都沒有一個機會再去審查的話，這個部分有沒有違反酷刑，這個時候就會有需要討論的空間。司法院謹補充以上意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，在這個地方我只是要提醒，雖然說其他國家對於不得假釋的部分認為有些微的疑慮，可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間，從剛剛法務部鄭部長的表態，認為其實我們現在訂定不得假釋也不見得會有牴觸憲法這樣的疑慮，本席也贊同您的看法。最重要是我們來看一下，因為我們很擔心，我們現在通過的法律，十之八九只要是行政院不滿意等等就會提起釋憲，那麼到底假釋制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由，是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見？訂定不得假釋的規範是不是屬於立法者的裁量權？未來我們如果真的修法通過分級的無期徒刑不得假釋的話，會不會構成違憲？"],["王副秘書長梅英：王委員，這個是不是違憲，司法院基於這不是我們主責，我們沒有辦法來宣告。任何法律我覺得當然大院都有制定的權限，可是任何一個法律，抽象來講，它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就有無期徒刑不得假釋的話，這個部分呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的態度是，日後如果有憲法訴訟，當然我們應該捍衛，包括死刑議題，我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，很好。本席也要再提醒，前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋中……這個案子基本上是涉及撤銷假釋的案件，他曾經提出了一份部分協同部分不同意見書。他就明確的指出，假釋是屬於法律創設的制度，立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間，極端的情形如果不設假釋制度，也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利，不至於構成違憲。但是無論如何，到底要不要假釋，我們立法者是有立法形成空間的，所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們，基本上還是希望能夠尊重我們立法機關、立法委員的立法裁量權，不要現在我們所通過的法律案，到了大法官那裡動不動都被宣告違憲，這樣基本上社會大眾也看不下去，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，因為吳委員希望他講完之後再休息，所以我們更改一下宣告，吳委員質詢完畢之後我們再……","強哥，請問一下，吳委員說他希望能夠接著質詢，不休息。"],["羅委員智強：沒問題。"],["主席：強哥，那你要休息完再問，還是你要接著問？"],["羅委員智強：接著。"],["主席：好，因為質詢委員剩沒有幾位，我們是不是等整個質詢完畢之後再休息？謝謝。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}},{"id":"163666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a6509f34cd0742b1fb4418dc12f595704a3da050b20122544417ffdbef6d71e002e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"11:03:44 - 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楊卓銘發言 邀請部長發布麻煩部長委員好"},{"start":16.109,"end":38.362,"text":"部長好 我們針對於在2017年到2022年間全國至少有47名的兒少因為嚴重的虐待致死我們又反推往前的10年 更有221名的兒少遭虐死亡"},{"start":39.002,"end":45.61,"text":"那其中來自父母方或者是來自照顧方的暴力行為那現在大家重視這個問題所以在針對於刑法286條以加重處罰"},{"start":52.489,"end":80.054,"text":"但是如果說施虐者人就可以適用這個假釋那我們認為會使整個刑法的嚇阻作用它是大打這個折扣所以甚至會讓社會大眾再度的暴露到這個加害者的一個威脅當中所以為了落實整個司法的正義跟保護兒少的一個安全本期希望能夠明定"},{"start":81.303,"end":101.646,"text":"虐同犯罪者不得在這樣的條件之下不得適用假釋所以本席今天也提出了一個修正動議也就是在我們刑法第77條裡頭增訂虐同罪者不得不得假釋所以要請教要請教部長你的看法"},{"start":103.732,"end":125.675,"text":"這個內統的確是很惡劣的 那個內統致死的這種案例就是286的這個問題我想這些天理南榮這些的 天理南榮 林榮仁林榮仁的案件 我們都是 就是整個不得假釋的立場我們都是非常尊重委員的一個寶貴意見 那我想不是只有286啦"},{"start":126.375,"end":134.079,"text":"所以我們提出的那個 你就本席所提出的286你應該是支持嗎應該是支持這是不得假釋的非常感謝你 行政院的版本我們是說故意殺人或殺人為罪只要判無期徒刑或者是10年以上有期徒刑的這部分我們都是不適用假釋的希望適用在不得的部分"},{"start":151.849,"end":173.277,"text":"所以我要謝謝你因為本席認為在假釋的制度呢他不應該淪為這一個制度尤其在286條虐童致死的這個部分那麼不得是這個制度的一個破口我也要謝謝部長你的支持我也希望待會討論的時候能夠得到各位同仁大家的支持好接下來本席要邀請衛福部張師長"},{"start":182.129,"end":199.698,"text":"市長 人家要請教因為本期在衛福委員會提過幾次那終於因為我們看到近年醫師涉及性侵的這個性平案件那衛福部本來就應當要設立狼獅的查詢平台"},{"start":200.578,"end":223.187,"text":"那一直沒有上線那我們一直討論終於達成共識而且謝謝你們也已經正式的這個平台已經上線那你首波你公布了六個醫師一個放射師但是現在到目前為止你所公布的這七位有三個醫師仍舊在職業仍舊在職業那本席也問過"},{"start":224.187,"end":244.094,"text":"那你們告訴我告訴本席說你們只有是資訊揭露不是如此喔我想聽聽你的意見喔是謝謝委員關心這個議題雖然這個業務不在保護司的業務但是我想就過去今天妳代表那個衛務部來"},{"start":245.034,"end":250.718,"text":"過去在整個影響職業影響他的職業的相關規定裡面特別涉及性侵害或者是性議題這樣的一個侵犯人權的立法裡頭目前看起來就是在校園就是教室這一塊不適任人員裡頭它有法律規定妳非常詳細的回答"},{"start":267.967,"end":289.936,"text":"校園的部分他是針對校園性平他的一個處理程序他必須一旦發生他必須在24小時去提報如果這個人是這個教師的話學校必須要提報上來24小時之內要提報提報出去他必須暫時的停止"},{"start":290.916,"end":294.3,"text":"他的職務接受調查這是在校園裡頭這是因為這個老師跟學生的關係是非常緊密但是醫生跟醫病關係要不要等同師生關係我覺得這個在到現在 顧不顧你們的回答還是不盡本質的不清不楚"},{"start":309.855,"end":312.516,"text":"在我們醫師法第25條裡頭非常清楚的明定違反醫學倫理或業務不增當行為可一復懲戒可一復懲戒 但是到目前為止"},{"start":325.882,"end":332.69,"text":"你們還是只停滯當然有精英小部你已經上線了你在上線所公布的這七個裡頭還有三位現在還在執業所以讓這些患者他非常的緊張那怎麼辦 要不要去討論"},{"start":343.883,"end":346.524,"text":"已經有校園性平的一個處理程序已經非常的清楚在這裡那麼依照醫師法你們也必須也得去提出這個懲戒來做討論懲案那到現在都不做那你光一個上限要幹嘛"},{"start":363.84,"end":385.212,"text":"你公開一個上線要做什麼你讓患者還是很緊張啊你公佈一個他竟然還在執業啊那是怎麼辦呢前幾天全國醫師公會的連署上面有特別提到這一切要依法行政也就是說就這個依法請你帶回去你到底要修醫師法你到底要修醫師懲戒"},{"start":388.567,"end":399.258,"text":"的程序的法律 還是怎麼如此我希望你們去研討出來我們跨出了一大步一定要有成效 而不是讓這些人逍遙法外啊讓這些患者還是很緊張啊這不是我們政府應該做的嘛"},{"start":405.14,"end":409.881,"text":"我們政府應該 既然你說了前幾天都已經提出 你必須要有法那你們應該要去研討啊 要去提出啊你的事是會提出是不是我想這個部裡頭應該相關的業務單位應該會審慎的來處理好不好 要盡快提出來幫助你們上線也才有才有真的成效嘛 好不好謝謝 請帶回去謝謝 研討出來請給本席 謝謝"},{"start":433.836,"end":435.984,"text":"好 謝謝 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謝謝有請NCC陳代理主委經濟部何次長環境部彭部長交通部陳部長有請主席交通部 NCC還有我們經濟部環境部"},{"start":37.076,"end":60.518,"text":"文豪好天災雖然難以避免但一連串的施政有疏失卻足以放大整個災害的傷害2021年8月我們看到蘇貞昌前院長在彰化縣方院特別視察淹水的災情的時候他有提到提公杯就公杯"},{"start":61.943,"end":84.179,"text":"如果能做到的好就不會有淹水做不好就會淹水不知道部會各個長官認同嗎這些年來也有編列特別預算就以最近蔡英文前總統的前瞻計畫裡面的一個水環境來說也說要因應極端的氣候"},{"start":85.7,"end":114.94,"text":"所以要編列特別預算防治因應但是一下雨就會崩一下雨就會塌一下雨就會淹水反應的我覺得不是提供不公平而是施政不力請問這些年來這些錢用在哪裡幾億元白花花的鈔票人民辛苦的血汗錢國人希望執政團隊可以好好的做事把國人安居樂業放在第一首選"},{"start":116.22,"end":138.631,"text":"我們看到到底NCC對於這一次台灣既然有地方變成資訊孤島丹納斯的颱風對中南部的影響不小這次的特別預算編列針對受災各個復原以及重建的需求涵蓋各部會限制實際我們每一個"},{"start":139.871,"end":160.204,"text":"縣市的需要各地方政府實際獲配的一個補助經費希望中央政府可以在這一面上要做到不應該有藍綠之分但針對這一次風災的檢討還是有一些問題想要請教通訊系統的防救災關鍵命脈"},{"start":163.485,"end":179.81,"text":"風災期間嘉南地區的通訊設備毀損部分地區長時間的斷訊請問目前市化 寬頻 基地台都已經完成修復了嗎請問信息是 各位報告"},{"start":181.651,"end":209.867,"text":"市化部分目前剩下43戶43戶原因是因為有些受災戶的房屋在整修所以中華電信配合屋主的一些騎乘所以延後去修復行動的部分記憶台的涵蓋7月底已經有但是有些是因為用臨時工法來替代這個鐵塔倒下去的部分所以涵蓋都有回到災前但是"},{"start":210.387,"end":216.03,"text":"品質會比在以前稍微遜色但是業者會有用行動車來補它的信號強度"},{"start":219.434,"end":242.396,"text":"好 希望不要有黑數 只有43戶那我們希望持續再加緊把關在在疫情的時間若居民通訊上無法保持基本暢通對於國家重要的即時的資訊氣象的資訊 生活的訊息我認為重要訊息都會完全無法掌握這個對我們所有的居民都有非常大的衝擊所以"},{"start":243.797,"end":258.131,"text":"我們後續還有物資的調度 急難的調度嚴重的都會有這些受阻所以請問當通訊中斷的時候政府要怎麼樣能夠確保能夠將必要的資訊加以擴散這些即時的資訊"},{"start":259.79,"end":287.137,"text":"NCC有沒有想法跟委員報告那政府的通訊如果目前三大業者是商用通訊那政府救災單位本身也有專用電信那他們就是獨立的系統那是變成是多軌多元的所以這個通訊的以政府救災單位或者指揮體系的單位他們還有另外有一個專用電信系統另外那專用電信系統或者商用都有一些衛星大哥大或者衛星"},{"start":287.817,"end":310.936,"text":"衛星的一些傳輸它的韌性是相對比較好只是它的頻寬比較低來了 戴主委是這樣子我覺得不只是災後復原我們未來要提升整體的通訊抗災能力達到通訊的韌性這個部分我們希望NCC應該要有所在這一次整體大檢討通訊不中斷是防災最基本的一個要求"},{"start":311.536,"end":331.181,"text":"另外我想問一下我們現在風災許多風電設施因為擋不住颱風造成設施災損屏東 家東 離岸的太陽光電設施嘉義新溫 志鴻池的光電板整個颱風掀翻等等問題環境部說災損總計33個暗場當初這些光電設施在整個設置的時候有沒有 並沒有做環評當初免環評的考量是什麼 請問一下"},{"start":342.319,"end":358.474,"text":"環境部可以回答嗎報告委員 當時的那個法規是這種水面上的還沒有辦法有環評但是我們現在新的今年通過的是完全都有環評的來 那現在要不要針對這些光電廠做一個事後補救的總體檢目前正在進行當中多久會完成總體檢這個要請經濟部"},{"start":363.678,"end":384.068,"text":"跟委員報告隨便行的部分我們已經檢查過了我們會盡快現在新設的案場全部都要有一些規範對不對這個我就不說但是過往的我認為一定要總體檢風災損壞光電板清除拖延環境部開罰900萬廠商如果繼續不作為態度消極那怎麼辦有沒有更高強度的手段"},{"start":384.728,"end":393.481,"text":"法不怕怎麼辦有委員 這個會我們代位求償這個絕對沒有問題的積極一點喔 像國人都在看啦我們非常積極 抱懷委員非常積極 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時57分）謝謝。有請NCC陳代理主委、經濟部何次長、環境部彭部長和交通部陳部長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，交通部、NCC，還有經濟部、環境部。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好！天災雖然難以避免，但一連串的施政疏失卻足以放大整個災害造成的傷害。2021年8月，我們看到蘇貞昌前院長在彰化縣芳苑特別視察淹水災情的時候有提到：老天爺很公平，如果人做得好，就不會有淹水，做不好就會淹水。不知道部會各個長官認同嗎？這些年來也有編列特別預算，就以最近蔡英文前總統的前瞻計畫裡面的一個水環境來說，也說因應極端氣候，所以要編列特別預算防治因應，但是一下雨就會崩、一下雨就會塌、一下雨就會淹水，反映的我覺得不是老天爺不公平，而是施政不力。請問這些年來這些錢用在哪裡？幾億元白花花的鈔票、人民辛苦的血汗錢，國人希望執政團隊可以好好做事，把國人安居樂業放在第一首選。","NCC對於這一次臺灣竟然有地方變成資訊孤島，丹娜絲颱風對中南部的影響不小，這次的特別預算編列針對受災復原以及重建的各個需求涵蓋各部會，限制實際我們每一個縣市的需要，各地方政府實際獲配的補助經費，希望中央政府在這方面要做到不應該有藍綠之分。但針對這一次風災的檢討，還是有一些問題想要請教，通訊系統的防救災關鍵命脈，風災期間嘉南地區的通訊設備毀損，部分地區長時間斷訊，請問目前市話、寬頻、基地台都已經完成修復了嗎？請問NCC。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，市話部分目前剩下43戶，原因是因為有些受災戶的房屋在整修，中華電信配合屋主的一些期程，所以會延後。那行動的部分，基地台的涵蓋7月底已經有，但是有些是因為用臨時工法來替代鐵塔倒下去的部分，所以涵蓋都有回到災前，只是品質會比災前稍微遜色，但是業者有用行動車來補它的信號強度。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，希望不要有黑數，只有43戶，我們希望持續再加緊把關。在災情的時間，若居民通訊上無法保持基本的暢通，對於國家重要的即時資訊、氣象的資訊、生活的訊息，我認為重要訊息都會完全無法掌握，這個對我們所有的居民都有非常大的衝擊，我們後續還有物資的調度、急難的調度，嚴重的都會受阻，所以請問當通訊中斷的時候，政府要怎麼樣能夠確保將必要的資訊加以擴散？這些即時的資訊，NCC有沒有想法？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，政府的通訊如果……目前三大業者是商用通訊，政府救災單位本身也有專用電信，他們有獨立的系統，變成是多軌多元的，所以政府的救災單位或者指揮體系的單位，他們還有另外一個專用電信系統。另外，專用電信系統或者商用都有一些衛星、大哥大或者衛星的一些傳輸，它的韌性是相對比較好，只是它的頻寬比較低。"],["羅委員廷瑋：代主委，是這樣子，我覺得不只是災後復原，我們未來要提升整體的通訊抗災能力，達到通訊的韌性，這個部分我們希望NCC應該要在這一次整體大檢討，通訊不中斷是防災最基本的要求。另外，我想問一下，我們現在風災，許多風電設施因為擋不住颱風，造成設施災損，屏東佳冬離岸的太陽光電設施、嘉義新塭滯洪池的光電板，整個颱風掀翻等等問題，環境部說災損總計33個案場，當初這些光電設施在整個設置的時候並沒有做環評，當初免環評的考量是什麼，請問一下，環境部可以回答嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，當時的法規是這種水面上的還沒有辦法有環評，但是我們現在新的、今年通過的是完全都有環評的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那現在要不要針對這些光電廠做一個事後補救的總體檢？"],["彭部長啓明：目前正在進行當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：多久會完成總體檢？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要請經濟部。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，水面型的部分我們已經檢查過了，我們會儘快。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在新設的案場全部都要有一些規範，對不對？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個我就不說，但是過往的，我認為一定要總體檢。風災損壞、光電板清除拖延，環境部開罰900萬，廠商如果繼續不作為，態度消極，那要怎麼辦？有沒有更高強度的手段？罰不怕怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：有，委員，這個我們會代位求償，這個絕對沒有問題的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：積極一點，國人都在看環境部，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：我們非常積極，委員，我們非常積極，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廷瑋。","接著請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席主席 戰狼委員 先進列席眾議院總統 官員 會長 工作夥伴 記者媒體 女士先生有請農業部陳部長跟農糧署署長好 農業部部長還有農糧署署長然後漁業署的陳副長也主席好 漁業署署長新聞是要嗎"},{"start":28.485,"end":42.965,"text":"不用 不用部長好 那麼是姚署長還有陳副署長好來 部長我就承繼著林俊賢委員的啦之前我跟您多次請益也建議啦說以這一次"},{"start":43.665,"end":67.544,"text":"雲嘉南高坪 我們溫王市的設施農業受到風災 豪雨的巨大的損害那麼農民前次借貸投資資金溫王市還沒有還清雖然政府補助50%但是現在血本無歸現在不只是損失他的政府的補助也損失了因為我問過這些過去政府補助的溫王市有沒有強制保 災害保險 產物保險"},{"start":69.349,"end":85.521,"text":"我們有沒有強制沒有沒有沒有對所以不止業者損失政府也損失啊你補助他1000萬你對不對他全部2000萬損失1000萬他的1000萬政府的所以這一個農民接受政府補助的農業設施"},{"start":87.122,"end":104.128,"text":"你們要考慮到有一定門檻金額以上的可能要要求他一定要有一個產物保險可以嗎可以 我們可以來設計那麼現在呢我們剛剛那個林縣委員也問到的我們題目是一模一樣我本來是希望說未來我們可以用什麼以租換貸"},{"start":105.909,"end":122.374,"text":"說你不要去貸款買政府不是補助你政府是補助你租金你去用租的但是租一開始會有很大的問題因為每個人的地都不一樣大小作物內容不同溫往事他喜歡定制化對不對好那我們看一下定制化的溫往事來現在剛剛講到的智能防災設施"},{"start":126.407,"end":151.299,"text":"這個有加強型水平網有簡易型塑膠布有結構型的這個鋼骨的那麼分別是125到162450到580900到1100等等等等請問一下這一次有沒有統計過哪一種類型損害的最嚴重比如說加強型的本來有五成簡易型的有三成鋼骨的有兩成結果受損比例"},{"start":152.233,"end":180.818,"text":"哪一個最嚴重 有沒有做過統計我們沒有很詳細的統計但是以簡易式的塑膠布文網是受准是最嚴重的所以證明說結構性鋼骨的應該比較耐厚性跟抗災性對不對相對來講相對來講嘛 好但是剛剛委員問到了 往下看你們一共有八種的款式你們說因為這八種的款式就不用再另外簽證因為都經過結構機制的評估但是你剛才也說了到底施工有沒有照圖施工有沒有第三方認證"},{"start":182.369,"end":201.697,"text":"有沒有辦法說要投給你啊我們幫你補助你做好了我們去看有照這個期間走嗎 有沒有我們現在是沒有但後續我們會檢討來改進就是說因為政府補助的部分我們應該有一個第三方對 要有一個機制 第三方驗證價還有你們現在提供這八種是參考啦因為買車跟租車你覺得買車的選擇多還是租車的選擇多"},{"start":206.038,"end":214.706,"text":"買車的選擇多啦 我要檢配要標配我要什麼配 我上面要有音響 要有倒車雷達 要有衛星導航 我都可以決定但是做什麼東西 做你的東西就夠點寬敞對不對"},{"start":216.516,"end":243.291,"text":"是不是這樣子所以其實以租車公司為例租車的品質 款式 規格它好管理但是如果你買車的每個人灰灰尿尿 很多款所以這個就是一個問題如果未來我們要讓這樣的溫王式的投資設施這種補助有效果其實你開發租賃業你反而可以提供固定系統化 規格化 標準化耐耗性 品質一致的他自己做的你一間一間的走 你也不會拿"},{"start":245.633,"end":261.442,"text":"部長可不可以考慮這個方向去做我想這是一個很好的方向就是針對後續我們在推我也認同以租代購這個方式是要推的那現在正在規劃那未來這個部分可以把一些模組化的這些溫室"},{"start":263.304,"end":284.999,"text":"因為你用出租的模組化的你就好控制品質嘛對不對他每次要搭你要關台怎麼搭有困難往下一個趕快進行我上次在院會的時候請教您跟院長農地能否裝置農業土能設施你說45公尺平方以下就可以對不對這是錯的我告訴你什麼原因45公尺以下是免申請建築執照免建造是45公尺"},{"start":285.439,"end":304.79,"text":"但是綠能設施在27條什麼是綠能設施28條第一項屋頂型的綠能設施啦現在農業設施農業使用呢只有屋頂型的綠能設施是不受限制的其他的只有電感跟配電箱而已有沒有辦法儲能設施沒有啦所以網路上請看目前養殖業有對不對"},{"start":306.129,"end":322.701,"text":"是不是養殖業有養殖就是餘電共生有啊對本來的沒有農業式農業去使用沒有但是你們特別試辦了農業養殖鼓勵養殖漁民自用自發對不對對那有沒有其他非養殖業的農業示範型的儲能設施的補助計畫現在是沒有"},{"start":324.081,"end":350.065,"text":"來有啦現在就是現在什麼時候展開有嘛1月年嘛從114年12月31日為止就有了嘛包括示範型的儲能設施嘛漁業的部分漁業的用那其他的非漁業的部分什麼時候開始辦我想我們會來比照因為從這一次的斷電的系統那除了養殖漁業需要電源以外其他的很多農糧特別是有冷凍庫冷藏的部分也必須要有這樣的設備可不可以給本席一個時間大概什麼時候可以把這樣的東西訂出來就這兩個題目"},{"start":355.022,"end":359.64,"text":"給個時間吧我們在年底之前 年底之前年底之前 好 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我想今天今天我們在討論有關於刑法修正草案的這些相關的修訂"},{"start":26.246,"end":44.251,"text":"有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的這個有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待"},{"start":45.92,"end":53.129,"text":"但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論"},{"start":61.658,"end":89.527,"text":"他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜"},{"start":91.668,"end":108.078,"text":"記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些"},{"start":109.139,"end":125.135,"text":"不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法"},{"start":125.655,"end":148.566,"text":"那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望會在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個"},{"start":154.042,"end":165.304,"text":"有關我就是 因為我今天手頭上版本我看到的就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個五級土地分析制的齁這個大概是第33條這個組型是種類啦齁還有這個第51條數字類併發的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上型的這個併行執行啦齁大概就這4條的修正那"},{"start":179.287,"end":199.442,"text":"我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度 一再斟酌傾聽各方意見等等 這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單 你們大概就提了兩個"},{"start":201.188,"end":214.253,"text":"問題一個就是說你認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面他沒有相關適用要件的這個這個這個這個"},{"start":216.954,"end":238.118,"text":"沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級"},{"start":243.799,"end":268.421,"text":"我在今天的這四條的修正裡面 我覺得看不到啦 我看不到那如果是由法官來 或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的 最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候 他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑 還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話"},{"start":269.682,"end":288.665,"text":"那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對今天的這個只修這四條法來增訂這個無紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分"},{"start":289.446,"end":303.936,"text":"在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年"},{"start":304.696,"end":325.274,"text":"平均假釋年數是17.9啦 17.9年那我看趙偉的簡報 我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個這個無期徒刑的受刑人那他們平均的這個假釋的年限是17.9啦不過我這個 因為他這只到111年 我看到的"},{"start":326.423,"end":331.646,"text":"新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900 應該是994人對不對 部長"},{"start":337.353,"end":346.219,"text":"994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次啦所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年"},{"start":366.852,"end":393.465,"text":"這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人"},{"start":395.528,"end":402.639,"text":"現在整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人 您假釋"},{"start":403.82,"end":424.305,"text":"沒有沒有沒有因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新修法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說啊 無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在"},{"start":425.345,"end":433.011,"text":"你沒有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過"},{"start":439.18,"end":455.726,"text":"我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法"},{"start":456.706,"end":483.942,"text":"這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡跟召委來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假釋"},{"start":485.783,"end":511.618,"text":"你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是"},{"start":512.458,"end":539.06,"text":"只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的"},{"start":539.761,"end":559.478,"text":"的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法啦我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見"},{"start":560.999,"end":578.712,"text":"那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個"},{"start":583.611,"end":599.748,"text":"這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題"},{"start":604.093,"end":630.247,"text":"另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個"},{"start":632.057,"end":649.585,"text":"所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清 再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的"},{"start":653.027,"end":664.881,"text":"倒數第二天的這個委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界 實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁"},{"start":670.948,"end":698.091,"text":"這樣子的制度齁它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些都對我都沒有意義了我所有所有遵守這個這個這個這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我中我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難"},{"start":699.032,"end":717.165,"text":"這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種三級一級無期徒刑這些眾生監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛"},{"start":718.762,"end":746.223,"text":"反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在也在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋"},{"start":747.884,"end":775.55,"text":"衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上"},{"start":777.572,"end":778.4,"text":"謝謝 那再跟沈委員報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時42分）今天我們討論有關刑法修正草案這些相關修訂，有一個很重要的議題是召委所提出的有關無期徒刑分級制度的討論，對於這樣的討論，我個人認為是相當正面的，也確實回應了社會大眾對於重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待。在我的印象中，雖然之前虐童案的公聽會也有討論這個議題，但畢竟那個是針對虐童案假釋問題審查時的一個附帶討論，跟這次無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套及法令是不同層次的討論，所以是不是應該要聽……畢竟我個人知道召委提出分級制度是幾天前的記者會，就是我看到召委召開記者會時才知道這個法案已經出來了，要進行無期徒刑分級制度，印象中到今天也還沒滿一個禮拜，記者會……"],["主席：跟委員報告，我們其實去年就有提出來，然後部長在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提版本，因為已經一年了，所以我才會再繼續，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：好，事實上這個案子在召開記者會之後，引起了社會重視，大家才紛紛提出不同意見，像剛剛陳培瑜委員也有提到聯合報的一些相關投書，或者學界針對終身監禁制度的得失利弊，有提出一些不同看法，這些我都覺得值得社會深入討論；更重要的是，也許這個法案等一下可能會進入逐條審查，所以我是希望在這裡大家先針對這個部分做一些大體上的討論。","首先請部長和副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩部長和副秘。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：今天我們手頭上的版本，就是召委提出來的有關無期徒刑分級制的修正草案，主要是第三十三條主刑的種類、第五十一條數罪併罰的相關問題、第七十七條有關假釋的規定，以及增列第七十九條之一有關兩年以上刑的併刑執行，大概就是這4個條文的修正，我也看了法務部和司法院的書面報告，基本上你們都是持保留態度，表示宜再斟酌、應傾聽各方意見等等，司法院的意見比較簡單，大概就提了兩個問題，一個是你們認為只在刑種部分做新的規定，把無期徒刑分為三級，但是在各分則，甚至刑事的特別法裡面，都沒有相關適用要件，尤其法務部的意見提得更強，這點好像剛剛召委有做回應，我是沒有聽到，法務部認為未來究竟是要在判決主文裡面，由法官諭知判無期徒刑是判一級、二級還是三級，或者在裁判以後，再由另外的機構評估認定到底是一級、二級、三級，這個部分我在今天這4個條文的修正案裡面看不到，是檢察官在求刑時，就必須具體求刑是三級中的哪一級無期徒刑，或者是法官在判決的主文，就必須諭知判處第一級還是第二級無期徒刑？如果我的認知是這樣，那麼針對今天修這4個條文來增訂無期徒刑的分級制，法務部就提出了8大意見。","在談今天這個修法問題之前，我想有一個部分要先釐清，就是剛才包括提案說明以及相關質詢中，都有提到近年來無期徒刑的平均假釋年數是17.9年，我很仔細的看了召委的簡報，提到102年到111年有657個無期徒刑受刑人，他們平均假釋的年限是17.9年，因為這個資料只到111年，而我看到的新資料是到目前為止，無期徒刑受刑人應該是994人，部長，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：994人。"],["沈委員發惠：994人嘛！因為之前刑法第七十七條有關假釋門檻的規定，其實修過了兩次，所以有3種不同的適用規定，民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋，86年和2006年分別修了一次，把15年到20年的規定，又再延長到25年，也就是說，目前的無期徒刑受刑人適用3個規定，所以剛剛計算的所謂17.9年中，事實上有很多都是適用舊法10年或者15年就可以假釋的，從2006年修法之後，就提升為25年，目前適用新法25年可以假釋的無期徒刑受刑人有多少人？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在整個是448人。"],["沈委員發惠：對，448人，適用新法的有448人，有多少人已經假釋了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有、沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有嘛！因為還沒有25年。"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實以現在好幾種……"],["沈委員發惠：修法到現在還沒有25年，所以不可能有人是修法之後已經假釋的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個還沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：所以剛剛提出來的這些人數和平均受刑年限，會讓社會覺得好像無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋，事實上這是舊法，新法到現在沒有超過25年是不能假釋的，所以到目前為止，無期徒刑受刑的448人中，還沒有人被假釋過，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這個才是實情。不過我覺得更重要要討論的是，如果今天按照這4個修正條文通過的話，會有什麼樣的問題？因為畢竟這是召委提出來的草案，也是我們第一次看到的具體條文，就是把無期徒刑分級、終身監禁制度入法，這是第一次，針對這個部分，我看法務部提出了很多執行上的意見，值得我們在這裡跟召委探討，究竟法務部說的這些有沒有道理，我們是不是有再聽取各界意見的空間，或者我們是不是有其他再讓大家思考的部分？大概法務部提出的意見，包括第一個，最重要也是最根本的，就是法務部認為假釋是刑的執行，不是刑的種類，所以多久可以假釋，應該是刑的執行面問題，現在把它入法到用刑的種類來區分，把假釋提升到刑的種類來，在法律上好像會有一些扞格，這是法務部提出的第一點意見。第二點，只規定在刑種，但在刑分和一些特別法裡面，並沒有規定什麼樣的行為態樣、什麼樣的構成要件要處一級，什麼樣的構成要件要處二級，什麼樣的要處三級，沒有這些構成要件的列舉，完全是由法官根據目前刑分跟特別法裡規定處無期徒刑之後，再決定要三級、二級還是一級，這樣會給法官太大的心理壓力，如果是這樣修法，我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑，因為構成要件裡面並沒有說什麼樣的構成要件可以判一級嘛！所以我認為這部分也是法務部所提的意見；另外有關配套剛剛講過，到底是審判的時候審判主文必須諭知，還是在裁判之後才另外設一個機關來衡量它是一級、二級還是三級？這部分在這一次修法也不清楚了；另外有關數罪併罰，這次修法還要把有期徒刑合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年，這也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級衡平性的問題；另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題，我想如果我們有機會開公聽會，其實可能在執行上會變成一個很大的問題，但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難，就是有關撤銷假釋後殘刑執行的問題，這部分可能會發生最大的問題啦！跟保安處分等等相關的執行，有可能會造成一些道德風險，這些都是需要考慮的。所以我看法務部這次的書面報告，其實在我看來是蠻強硬的，8大意見每一個都是建請釐清、再予斟酌。我個人真的很希望，我們其實不急於今天在這個延長會期倒數第2天的這個委員會就把它定案，我個人還是希望就針對剛剛所講這些問題，我想如果有學界、實務界，甚至有關獄政相關的執行，終身監禁這樣子的制度，剛剛部長提到這樣子會人力負荷，它不只是人力負荷的問題，而是當我被終身監禁之後，在獄中所有過那些累進處遇對我都沒有意義了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：完全沒有效了。"],["沈委員發惠：我所有遵守獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了，如果我是終身監禁、終身不得假釋，這個會造成在管理上面，不是說你怎麼樣，而是管理上面會非常困難。十年前高雄監獄發生暴動，就是因為假釋遙遙無期，所以發生這樣的暴動。如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多一級無期徒刑、終身監禁的人，對他們來講，我遵守你的規定幹嘛！反正我就終身監禁，這在獄政管理上會造成很大的問題，可能整個獄政的管理要重新設計、調整，這些都是配套的問題。所以有很多部分值得討論，我個人更希望未來在假釋的部分……之前我也在質詢中提到有關被害人影響陳述的部分，我個人是很希望在未來假釋的衡量上能夠納入被害人陳述的部分，這部分我以後有時間我再談，因為時間已經超過蠻多了。我是希望等一下在逐條討論的時候，也希望召委能夠再思考，我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉，大家就這些問題之後能夠進一步讓社會各界充分地表達意見，讓大家取得一個社會共識跟可執行的方式？以上。"],["主席：謝謝。再跟沈委員報告，有關要不要再加開公聽會，等一下我會再思考看怎麼樣做比較好，因為這個議題拋出來已經一年了，所以我才想說我們還是要有進度，這對國家才有交代。另外，還有終身不得假釋，其實在很多國家都有這個制度，當然您所提到的那個，有啦！就是進去後會不會覺得遙遙無期……"],["沈委員發惠：整套要重……"],["主席：是！所以這部分我會再思考有沒有必要再加開公聽會凝聚各界的意見，謝謝。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 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這個漏洞是不是希望能不能夠把它會 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請主席 經濟部次長還有環境部部長好 主席總長還有次長還有環境部部長委員好這一次大家不分朝野大家都同心同意這邊的這個重建特別預算我們本來從行政院的五百六已經增加掉六百億了所以拜託一下各個部會在幫忙包括農委會 農業部"},{"start":46.933,"end":68.673,"text":"幫我們農民幫我們中小企業的時候要從寬從幼這一次台灣民眾黨有提了一個很重要的附帶決議等一下我要特別談就是怎麼樣去加碼去幫助我們的災民這一次整個條例跟特別預算台灣民眾黨提出四大主張加速重建"},{"start":69.693,"end":85.741,"text":"加碼補助另外嚴禁挪用經費就一定是要專款專用不要再出現黃偉哲條款黃偉哲那個整個挪用治水的這個預算還有要公開透明監督那我們現在談一個最重要的災民最注意的就是"},{"start":86.894,"end":102.7,"text":"要怎麼去加碼補助所以這次本來台灣民眾黨是有提的條文後來經過朝野協商黨團協商我們明確的要求對於淹水戶淹水超過50公分以上的"},{"start":104.124,"end":130.14,"text":"第一個不要受到一個門牌一戶的限制這個大家有共識嘛 對不對因為在南部像阿卡 嘉義 台南就只能三合院耶一個門牌裡面有好幾戶那我們排除就是一個門牌裡面有好幾戶我們全部都補助這是第一個 對不對第二個我們要求依照本條例加碼補助每一戶加碼兩萬塊錢如果中低收入戶跟低收入戶加碼變成三萬塊錢這是經過朝野協商"},{"start":133.978,"end":141.643,"text":"黨團山長都簽字了行政院也簽字了所以我今天要求明確一定要落實好不好我看這邊的議程裡面有編了3億嘛"},{"start":143.629,"end":172.279,"text":"對不對 用每戶兩萬塊錢去計算這三億的錢我相信大家朝野都會通過這筆錢沒有問題啦我剛講的已經從五百六加了四十億在那邊了順便再加碼我們這個附帶決議裡面提了一個非常重要的就是依照原來的法規水災災害救助總列級標準的第七條地方政府可以補助五千到兩萬各地方政府都補對不對"},{"start":173.579,"end":184.268,"text":"我看你們後來又宣布你們行政要加碼兩萬塊錢我要特別強調喔我們這個附帶協議是大家朝野同意的喔行政院也承諾喔依照本條例"},{"start":185.966,"end":206.382,"text":"這三令一定要發到每個人手上去好不好跟委員報告一定要貫徹行政會加碼那兩萬塊大概就是按照我們那個立法院的那個決議我們來執行那所以這個部分我想我們也都有考慮到這個除了地方的補助以外中央我們再加碼兩萬塊的這個補助所以是不是可以讓"},{"start":207.622,"end":234.374,"text":"讓委員這個了解一下就是說行政院其實已經有透過很多的一些措施照顧不管是淹水補助也好或是說這個住宅的修復也好都有很多的一些補助的項目所以是不是可以懇請委員第一地方已經都補助各個縣市政府都有了是都有補助那現在就是依照今天編的過了這3億我們非常明確依照本條例要趕快發下去"},{"start":235.054,"end":236.76,"text":"好不好那你們之前有講到你們要加碼"},{"start":238.406,"end":266.938,"text":"我們重寬重優啊你們要再加兩萬塊OK這個我們多多益善要重優重寬可是最重要我今天要強調的依照台灣民眾黨提案的負債節這兩萬塊錢一定要花下去然後是中低收支付要三萬塊喔好不好一定要做到重優重寬一定要做到不過跟委員報告啦就是我們這一次的加碼大概就是按照就是這樣的一個決議來執行啦就是你們那大概什麼時候可以花到我們受災戶的這個手上"},{"start":267.85,"end":288.81,"text":"我想我們會盡快把這個經費如果這邊通過的話我們就會盡快撥給地方政府好 等幾分鐘那這個一定要做到 好不好加碼補助債務這個拜託一定要做到高第一 我們要求這每一分錢民脂民膏一定要專款專用所以我們訂了黃偉哲條款因為之前你中央給台南市的"},{"start":290.031,"end":308.617,"text":"審計部說有些地下下水道的錢清淤的9000多萬被移用了所以我們訂了第五條的第五項要求中央這次補助地方執行機關的經費依照補助的目的跟項目支出一定不能移為他用這一定要非常堅持 好不好另外我們要求"},{"start":309.477,"end":327.77,"text":"各個相關機關你在這個條例通過的兩個月內整個復健的重建計畫趕快拿出來然後呢每一季執行的狀況執行的進度要送到立法院來備查另外要設一個網站資訊的網站每個要公開進度讓前面可以公開透明可以看得到 好不好好 謝謝另外呢"},{"start":332.008,"end":336.153,"text":"我問環境部長好不好 抱歉我借20秒借20秒 20秒我加上光電板我發現有兩個很嚴重的問題第一個現在還有兩個那個製縫紙下面的"},{"start":345.25,"end":361.759,"text":"旁邊他在第一個他在旁邊就把那個湖板把它碎掉那個塑膠圍裏那個整個滿天灰那個多大的污染那個已經被我們要求已經撤掉因為他自己去裝的違法的他已經沒有在那邊了不能再碎了我們有發現有提醒他警告他們"},{"start":364.018,"end":391.679,"text":"絕對不能在那邊再睡了絕對沒有 絕對沒有第二個現在他本來兩個自捧池啊結果你們在罰錢他說什麼你們要求把他放在同一個地方他自己 他自己自作主張他被罰另外一個三百萬他自己做的我們沒有要求他他應該加速處理啊 對不對怎麼是把兩個地方集中到一個地方委員 那家已經被我們罰得很厲害了而且他們現在也提出一個這個清理計畫書他希望9月5號以前那我們要求他我們再來審他的計畫書當中"},{"start":393.18,"end":394.003,"text":"計劃書趕快審 要加速兩個重點啦加速趕快處理這個分債汙染好不好對 這一定我們會決定處理"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":497,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時37分）謝謝主席，請主計長、經濟部次長，還有環境部部長。"],["主席：請主計總長、次長、環境部部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：這一次大家不分朝野，大家都同心同力，這次的重建特別預算，我們本來從行政院的560億已經增加到600億了，所以拜託一下，各個部會在幫忙時，包括農業部在幫我們農民、幫我們中小企業的時候，要從寬、從優，好不好？","這一次，我們台灣民眾黨有提了一個很重要的附帶決議，等一下我要特別談，就是怎麼樣加碼去幫助我們的災民。這一次的條例跟特別預算，台灣民眾黨提出四大主張：加速重建、加碼補助、嚴禁挪用經費，一定要專款專用，不要再出現黃偉哲條款，不要像黃偉哲挪用治水的預算，還有要公開透明監督。","我們現在談一個最重要的，災民最在意的就是要怎麼加碼補助？所以這一次本來台灣民眾黨有提了條文，後來經過朝野協商、黨團協商，我們明確的要求，對於淹水超過50公分以上的淹水戶，第一個，不要受到一個門牌一戶的限制，這大家有共識嘛，對不對？因為在南部，像我阿楷的家鄉，嘉義、臺南很多都是三合院，一個門牌裡面有好幾戶，排除一門牌一戶的限制，我們就是一個門牌裡面有好幾戶的，我們全部都補助，這是第一個。","第二個，我們要求依照本條例加碼補助，每一戶加碼2萬塊錢，如果中低收入戶跟低收入戶加碼變成3萬塊錢，這是經過朝野協商，黨團三長都簽字了，行政院也簽字了，所以我今天要求一定要落實，好不好？我看這次的預算裡面有編了3億嘛，對不對？用每戶2萬塊錢去計算出來，這3億的錢，我相信大家朝野都會通過，這筆錢沒有問題啦！我剛剛講的，已經從560億加了40億了，所以要再加碼，我們這個附帶決議裡面提了一個非常重要的，就是依照原來的法規，「水災災害救助種類及標準」的第七條，地方政府可以補助5,000到2萬，各地方政府都補助嘛，對不對？我看你們後來又宣布行政院再加碼2萬塊錢，我要特別強調，我們這個附帶決議是大家朝野同意的喔，行政院也承諾喔！依照本條例，這3億一定要發到每個人手上去，好不好？一定要貫徹。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，行政院加碼那2萬塊，大概就是按照立法院的決議，我們來執行，所以這個部分，我想我們也都有考慮到，除了地方的補助以外，我們中央再加碼2萬塊的補助，所以是不是可以讓委員了解一下，就是行政院其實已經透過很多的措施，照顧不管是淹水補助也好，或是住宅的修復也好，都有很多補助的項目，所以是不是可以懇請委員……"],["張委員啓楷：晉滄，第一個，地方已經都補助，各個縣市政府都有補助，現在就是依照今天編的、過的這3億，我們非常明確，要依照本條例趕快發下去，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那你們之前有講到你們要加碼，我們從寬、從優啊！你們要再加2萬塊也OK，我們多多益善，要從優、從寬，可是最重要、今天要強調的，依照台灣民眾黨提案的附帶決議，這2萬塊錢一定要發下去，中低收入要3萬塊，從優、從寬一定要做到。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們這一次的加碼，大概就是按照這樣的一個決議來執行。"],["張委員啓楷：大概什麼時候可以發到我們受災戶的手上？"],["何次長晉滄：我想我們會儘快把這個經費撥……如果這邊通過的話，我們就會儘快撥給地方政府來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好，剩1幾分鐘。這個一定要做到，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["張委員啓楷：加碼補助災戶，這個拜託一定要做到！","第二個，我們要求這每一分錢，都是民脂民膏，一定要專款專用，所以我們訂了黃偉哲條款，因為之前你們中央給臺南市，審計部說有些下水道清淤的錢，9,000多萬被移用了，所以我們訂了第五條的第五項，要求中央這一次補助地方執行機關的經費，依照補助的目的跟項目支出一定不能移為他用，這一定要非常堅持，好不好？","另外，我們要求各個相關機關，在這個條例通過的2個月內，整個復建的重建計畫要趕快拿出來，好不好？每一季執行的狀況、執行的進度要送到立法院來備查，另外要設一個資訊網站，每個月要公開進度，能公開透明地讓全民可以看得到，好不好？謝謝。","我問環境部長，好不好？抱歉，我借20秒。嘉義那麼多的光電板，我發現有兩個很嚴重的問題：第一個，現在還有兩個滯洪池，業者在旁邊就把浮板碎掉，塑膠微粒整個滿天飛，那個是多大的污染！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，那個在我們要求下已經撤掉，因為這是他們自己去裝的，這是違法的，現在已經沒有在那邊了。"],["張委員啓楷：不能再碎了！"],["彭部長啓明：我們有發現，有提醒、警告他們。"],["張委員啓楷：好、好！絕對不能在那邊再碎了。"],["彭部長啓明：絕對沒有！絕對沒有！"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，本來是兩個滯洪池啊！結果你們罰錢後，他說你們要求把它放在同一個地方。"],["彭部長啓明：他們自己自作主張，被罰另外一個300萬……他們自己做的，我們沒有要求他們。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！應該加速處理啊！對不對？怎麼是把兩個地方集中到一個地方？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，那家已經被我們罰得很厲害了，他們現在也提出一個清理計畫書，希望9月5日以前，我們要求他……我們正在審計畫書當中。"],["張委員啓楷：計畫書趕快審，然後加速要求他們處理。"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["張委員啓楷：兩個重點啦！加速趕快處理，不能再有污染！"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個部分我們鐵定處理。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員。接著請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我請一下法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好部長請問一下你這個禮拜會不會寫辭職信啊有沒有準備這個我想我每天坐在整個在推動我們這個業務的一個正常推動我想這個是一個"},{"start":34.045,"end":37.927,"text":"你還是要堅守崗位目前要堅守崗位因為這兩天因為委員都很關心這個問題對 我很關心當然關心我們作為在野監督者當然關心因為院長"},{"start":50.852,"end":65.237,"text":"說這個禮拜應該會完成整個的內閣改組那現在看起來呢可能要走的閣員都會主動寫個辭職信不想寫可能也被逼著要寫所以我才問您這句話所以應該這個禮拜你們有這個這個可能嘛"},{"start":67.103,"end":91.128,"text":"謝謝 我很關心好 OK那請問一下就是我們現在討論的就是我們針對虐童不得假釋的部分我不曉得法務部的態度是什麼因為在之前我們針對凌虐幼兒致死那要處以最高可以處以死刑那那個時候是並沒有行政院版本我記得當時我們在做協調的時候那時候"},{"start":96.4,"end":123.991,"text":"法务部还说会在一个月因为我们就是又被冷冻一个月那法务部还说会提出版本但是最后法务部并没有提出行政院版本那我想请问一下那有关于现在我们立法院很多委员都提案就是虐童致死也最高可以处无期徒刑而且不得假释这个部分法务部的态度是什么那么我们会有行政院的版本吗"},{"start":125.502,"end":154.621,"text":"行政院的版本因為我們其實我們那時候說法務部的版本很快就提到已經提到去年就提到行政院那行政院已經五次的審查我想快要審訊了即將審訊已經到最後的一個階段了那再就會嫌立法院那個司法院就會送到行政院來做一個審議了那委員非常關心這個內統事實上這個內統是人審公分 田裡然農這個我想我們的理念都一致的那內統當然不能假設我們是我們是贊同的啊"},{"start":154.701,"end":154.803,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":155.462,"end":184.408,"text":"這個我們是贊同的那贊同會有版本嗎因為我為什麼特別講就是當時我們還特別協調然後冷凍一個月因為那時候我是覺得根本不要冷凍一個月可是因為當時你們說你們可以提出版本所以我們就等可是你們最後還是沒有提出版本而在立法院最後處理三讀通過的時候當時民進黨所有的委員通通投下反對票"},{"start":185.388,"end":191.152,"text":"所有民進黨的委員通通投下反對票所以我們就不懂啦在這邊講說願意支持然後願意提版本在我們立法院院會三讀通過的時候民進黨又所有的委員通通投下反對票所以我們就不懂這個到底態度看起來態度就是堅決反對啊不然為什麼全部都投反對票還沒有開放投票喔"},{"start":209.784,"end":234.258,"text":"好 所以我想請問一下您剛剛講說現在法務部已經有修法送到行政院所以基本上我們現在立法院我們幾位委員的提案我們法務部是支持的嗎這部分有些部分的因為這要配合回應那個113年宪判八字號的一個判決那也回應到民意"},{"start":235.138,"end":261.17,"text":"那這邊我跟委員報告過了我們對這些天理人神共憤這些特殊重大暴力的犯罪包括這個286 刑犯286的這部分我們的立場我們是希望這部分這個不適用假釋的一個規定那我想這部分行政已經在最後是不是在等甚至剛才有委員提到說是不是要在辦公這個範圍的一個問題"},{"start":263.351,"end":282.243,"text":"那我想這個286那這樣好不好因為當然我們這個會期也快要結束了那你們下會期可以送到立法院來嗎我們努力因為這個已經到最後的一個審查階段了對我真的覺得因為你不要每次都嘴巴上說同意然後呢最後都沒有那個行動而且那"},{"start":284.585,"end":309.242,"text":"這個執政黨委員的投票的又變成反對所以這樣的話我們希望說能夠你們就直接在下個會期好不好能夠送進來我覺得很多的法案如果大家有一致就不需要為了對立因為我們說實在啦我們在這個會期尤其在大罷免之前太多只是為了反對而反對好像你再也講提什麼東西我即便是對的是對的你們也要反對反對到底"},{"start":313.004,"end":331.378,"text":"所以我真的覺得這個部分剛才講就是我們如何防止孽兒而且針對凌虐幼兒致死的是大家都知道是凌容忍所以都應該去做我時間還有一點點對不起 到後面這個是我這幾天一直很想詢問的"},{"start":334.065,"end":360.282,"text":"最近有幾個案件 其實呢 大家覺得很有感沒有錯 他們是觸犯了相關的法則但是呢 說實在 對一般人來講 那個都是很違罪我們常常在想說 你們法院也好 檢察官也好累積這麼大量案件 這麼多的詐欺案要辦還有你要辦這麼多的司法 這個政治的案件"},{"start":361.002,"end":373.435,"text":"還有很多的案件 結果我們現在出現的一些法則第一個就是說有一個女子兩年前她在淘寶去買了棉花棒她是買了20包 20包一共480塊 480塊"},{"start":379.782,"end":402.664,"text":"那他這個當然呢他是違反相關的就是這個你這個醫用型的這些不能夠進口超量那可能一般的人搞不清楚那好好他違法了那那時候呢也被沒收結果兩年後警方上門逮人而且把他拘留在看守所一個晚上買20包的"},{"start":406.328,"end":411.095,"text":"棉花棒要被拘留在看守所一個晚上然後讓他繳十萬塊錢的罰款"},{"start":414.881,"end":441.857,"text":"這樣的一個司法的行為其實我們覺得不解啦這樣可能任何人都可能觸法任何人都可能觸法好 另外一個案件貪污是不對的可是像這個清潔隊員他是把廢棄的家具他覺得這個家具人家覺得不要但是呢 他在這個資源回收的時候他覺得這個家具是堪用的"},{"start":442.757,"end":446.682,"text":"他就把他呢送給了好友人他覺得很可惜"},{"start":447.851,"end":476.63,"text":"結果依貪污罪起訴面臨五年以上有期徒刑大家都知道一旦是用貪污罪起訴就五年以上有期徒刑所以我要講就是說身在宮門好修行我們對於貪贓枉法違反法令的這個犯罪行為當然要打擊保護好人但是我講的這兩個例子我真的不覺得他們是壞人"},{"start":478.051,"end":496.156,"text":"他們有 就是你買個棉花棒然後你要被到看守所還要住一晚 很多人都很害怕你知道嗎即便是這種一般人聽到警方上門就嚇死了然後現在讓他到看守所去然後罰20萬 對不起 罰10萬塊那這個有關於"},{"start":500.882,"end":527.687,"text":"貪污 違罪貪污 在過去有好幾個案例所以我希望說我們法務部這邊是不是也可以針對這種違罪是不是他一定要處以這麼重的刑罰好像這個清潔隊員我覺得很多人都非常同情啊這個叫貪污 那貪污更重的逍遙法外的更多呀"},{"start":529.367,"end":541.549,"text":"所以是不是部長 既然我剛才一開始就問你 你會不會寫辭職信 你說你會堅守崗位好 那我也希望人在公門好修行"},{"start":542.935,"end":557.377,"text":"老講法務部這一年多來你的施政的這個其實是非常偏頗的啦你做了很多的司法的案件但是我覺得我們是不是也能夠苦民所苦我剛才講的這個兩個例子"},{"start":559.661,"end":578.032,"text":"能不能在我們在法令上能做一些調整跟修正不要再出現像這樣子的一個小老百姓他也不懂他其實他也他那時候做的時候他也不曉得自己是犯罪但是呢卻要受到這樣的待遇部長可不可以就是我們"},{"start":579.413,"end":594.962,"text":"尤其在這個司法的部分啊能夠讓我們真的是要保護好人而不是去懲戒這些這種其實違罪就不要讓他有面臨這麼重的相關的罰則好不好"},{"start":596.203,"end":621.243,"text":"好 謝謝委員那委員關心的就是那個清潔隊員這一種的的確是清清法重那這部分我們保護部都很重視這個問題事實上我們已經把修正草案送給行政院審查那這部分我跟委員報告這個像這個小貪污這部分那貪污自衛條例12條第一項有修正減輕或免除其刑那減輕的話還得減到三分之二"},{"start":621.943,"end":650.613,"text":"那我想這比較合乎到我們一個一個實際上的一個甚至可以免除疾險就不用管嘛那我想這個給法律你是修法嗎是修法好吧你可以把那個修法相關的那個你們的資料提供給我們辦公室一份好不好我覺得因為最近很多人跟我反映這個我自己也心有所感啊另外那個淘寶那個那是屬於衛福部的全職我知道這個那個我沒辦法去處理這個區塊"},{"start":651.593,"end":667.183,"text":"好好好那這個我們會去跟衛福部但是這個衛福部這當然是要罰啦他這個他是有用但是兩年之後又跑過去還要給人家關一個晚上我覺得真的非常離譜啦好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":564,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時31分）好，謝謝主席。我請一下法務部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好。部長請問一下，你這個禮拜會不會寫辭職信，有沒有準備？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……我想我每天都在推動整個業務正常運作，我想這個是一個……"],["王委員鴻薇：你還是要堅守崗位嘛！目前要堅守崗位。"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該沒有這個問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為這兩天……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為委員都很關心這個問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我很關心，當然關心啊！我們作為在野監督者當然關心，因為院長說這個禮拜應該會完成整個內閣改組，現在看起來可能要走的閣員都會主動寫個辭職信，不想寫，可能也被逼著要寫，所以我才問您這句話。所以應該這個禮拜，你沒有這個可能嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員關心。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。請問一下，我們現在討論針對虐童不得假釋的部分，我不曉得法務部的態度是什麼？因為在之前，我們針對凌虐幼兒致死最高可以處以死刑，那個時候並沒有行政院版本。我記得當時我們在協調的時候，因為我們又被冷凍一個月，那時候法務部還說會在一個月提出版本，但是最後法務部並沒有提出行政院版本。我想請問一下，現在我們立法院很多委員都提案，針對虐童致死最高也可以處無期徒刑，而且不得假釋，對於這個部分，法務部的態度是什麼？我們會有行政院的版本嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：行政院的版本，其實我們法務部的版本很快的在去年就已經提到行政院，行政院已經五次審查，我想快要審竣了，即將審竣，已經到最後的階段了，再來會銜司法院，就會送到立法院來審議了。委員非常關心虐童，事實上，虐童是人神共憤、天理難容，我想我們的理念都一致的，虐童當然不得假釋，我們是贊同的，這我們是贊同的，因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：贊同會有版本嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這個版本還在……"],["王委員鴻薇：我為什麼特別講？當時我們還特別協調，然後冷凍一個月，那時候我就覺得根本不要冷凍一個月，因為當時你們說可以提出版本，所以我們就等，可是你們最後還是沒有提出版本，而在立法院最後處理三讀通過的時候，當時民進黨所有的委員通通都投下反對票，所以我們就不懂了，在這邊講願意支持、願意提版本，在我們立法院院會三讀通過的時候，民進黨所有的委員又通通投下反對票，所以我們就不懂，看起來態度就是堅決反對，不然為什麼全部都投反對票，還沒有開放投票喔！好，所以我想請問一下，您剛剛講現在法務部已經有修法送到行政院，所以基本上現在立法院我們幾位委員的提案，法務部是支持的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為要配合回應113年憲判字第8號判決，也回應到民意，我跟委員報告過了，我們對於天理難容、人神共憤的這些特殊重大暴力的犯罪，包括刑法第二百八十六條虐童的這部分，我們的立場是希望這部分不適用假釋的規定，我想這部分行政院已經到最後的階段，是不是再等？甚至剛才有委員提到是不是要再辦公聽會，這個範圍的問題，我想刑法第二百八十六條……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣好不好，因為我們這個會期也快要結束了，你們下會期可以送到立法院來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們努力，因為這個已經到最後的審查階段了。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我真的覺得……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為不是只有修這一條啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要每次都嘴巴上說同意，最後都沒有行動，而且執政黨委員的投票又變成反對。這樣的話，我們希望你們直接在下個會期就能夠送進來。我覺得很多的法案，如果大家意見一致就不需要對立，因為說實在的，我們在這個會期，尤其在大罷免之前，太多只是為了反對而反對，好像在野黨提什麼東西，即便是對的，你們也要反對到底，所以我真的覺得這個部分，如同剛才講的，我們如何防止虐兒，而且針對凌虐幼兒致死，大家都知道是零容忍，所以都應該去做。","時間還有一點點，其實這是我這幾天一直很想、很想詢問的，最近有幾個案件，其實大家覺得很有感，沒有錯，他們是觸犯了相關的罰則，但是說實在的，對一般人來講，那個都是微罪。我們常常在想你們法院也好，檢察官也好，累積這麼大量案件、這麼多的詐欺案要辦，還有你要辦這麼多的政治案件，還有很多的案件，結果我們現在出現了一些罰則，第一個，有一個女子兩年前在淘寶去買了棉花棒，她是買了20包，一共480元，當然他是違反相關的規定，醫用型的這些不能夠進口超量，可能一般人搞不清楚，他違法了，那時候也被沒收，結果兩年後，警方上門逮人，而且把他拘留在看守所一個晚上，買20包的棉花棒要被拘留在看守所一個晚上，然後讓他繳10萬元的罰鍰，這樣的一個司法行為其實我們覺得不解，這樣任何人都可能觸法。另外一個案件，貪污是不對的，可是像這個清潔隊員，他是把廢棄的傢俱送人，這個傢俱人家不要，他在資源回收的時候，他覺得這個傢俱是堪用的，他覺得很可惜，他就把它送給了友人，結果依貪污罪起訴，面臨5年以上有期徒刑，大家都知道一旦是用貪污罪起訴，就是5年以上有期徒刑。","所以我要講的就是，身在公門好修行，我們對於貪贓枉法、違反法令的犯罪行為當然要打擊，保護好人，但是我講的這兩個例子，我真的不覺得他們是壞人，買個棉花棒，然後要被送到看守所，還要住一晚，很多人都很害怕，你知道嗎？一般人聽到警方上門就嚇死了，現在還要讓他到看守所去，然後罰10萬元。有關於微罪貪污，在過去有好幾個案例，所以我希望法務部針對這種微罪是不是一定要處以這麼重的刑罰……像這位清潔隊員，我覺得很多人都非常同情，這個叫貪污？貪污更重的、逍遙法外的更多呀！部長，既然我剛才一開始就問你會不會寫辭職信，你說你會堅守崗位，那麼我也希望人在公門好修行，老實講，法務部這一年多來，你的施政其實是非常偏頗的，你做了很多的司法案件，但是我覺得我們是不是也能夠苦民所苦？我剛才講的這兩個例子，能不能在我們的法令上做一些調整跟修正，不要再出現像這樣子的一個小老百姓？他也不懂，其實他那時候做的時候，他也不曉得自己是犯罪，但是卻要受到這樣的待遇。部長，可不可以？尤其在司法的部分，我們真正的是要保護好人，而不是去懲戒這些這種其實是微罪的情形，其實微罪就不要讓他面臨這麼重的相關罰則，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝委員，委員關心的清潔隊員這一種的的確是情輕法重，我們法務部都很重視這個問題。事實上我們已經把修正草案送給行政院來審查，有關這部分，我跟委員報告，像小額貪污這部分，貪污治罪條例第十二條第一項有修正減輕或免除期刑，減輕的話，還得減到三分之二，我想這比較合乎實際上的狀況，甚至可以免除期刑，就不用關。我想這個給法院……"],["王委員鴻薇：你是修法嗎？是修法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：修法、修法。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那你把修法的相關資料提供一份給我們辦公室，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為最近很多人跟我反映，而我自己也心有所感。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，淘寶的部分是屬於衛福部權責，我們沒辦法處理那個區塊。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，我會去跟衛福部……衛福部這當然是要罰，但這是兩年之後，還把人家關一個晚上，我覺得真的非常離譜。好，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請沈發惠委員發言，待會在翁曉玲委員詢答結束後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}},{"id":"163658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163658","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a65026a2c7b924a38f3618dc12f595704a3d489d0440bf86c386fefbc25bed5bb6755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:32:07 - 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內政部還有環境部"},{"start":19.509,"end":35.26,"text":"先請環境部謝謝謝主席今天安排了一個丹納斯颱風跟728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案的一個備詢那我想說在這一次的丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨之後不僅帶來一個災情"},{"start":38.242,"end":64.229,"text":"我特別注意到了一件事情因為在很多新聞資料當中看到了石棉建材的問題嚴重的浮現出來因為石棉建材石棉在1977年就被國際認為是一級致癌物部長一定知道這個狀態我們在這一次看到這災情當中的時候好多好多的災民跟清潔人員他們用徒手在搬運破碎的石棉瓦"},{"start":65.229,"end":78.284,"text":"那甚至於有很多車子就碾過了一個破碎的食棉瓦那食棉的一個纖維就是到處在那個粉塵到處在竄那我想請教一下因為在這一次這600億的一個特別預算當中的時候"},{"start":82.429,"end":107.28,"text":"就是環境部有特別編列七億坦白說在六百里面的七億其實不算多可是他很精準的放在實棉建材廢棄物清運的作業這個部分我想請問一下部長現在實棉建材這件事情你認為是一個這是災後碰到的一個問題還是是一個整個公衛的一個問題"},{"start":108.3,"end":135.346,"text":"好 謝謝委員第一個是石棉要破損了才要馬上清運如果沒有破損等到整個要改建的時候再把它移除掉就可以了所以我們這種所謂的正常的排除是我們每年大概有兩到三億的預算來補助給地方來做這個事情那這次是因為大規模的這個有一萬五千噸所以我們要處理這個破損的已經破損的量所以這個七億多事實上還有我們有爭取別的預算"},{"start":135.486,"end":162.927,"text":"所以目前每年有2億多是在環境部這邊來協助做這樣一個處理對不對補助給地方我想另外先問下一個問題因為你這邊的時候我看環境部的資料這邊有特別提到全台10萬瓦的建物總共高達24萬全台到處都有24萬多棟你們這部分是怎麼統計出來的這個是用衛星謠測然後繁衍出來推算出來的衛星謠測出來的對不對"},{"start":164.868,"end":190.889,"text":"所以可能是一般的住宅对不对也可能是农舍还有企业企业对不对那可能搞不好文化部他们可能有一些历史建筑可能也都包含在里头是然后可能包括了我们教育部体系下面有很多学校也都会有对不对对OK好那针对这个部分我想请教一下内政部部长"},{"start":191.73,"end":208.011,"text":"就是我們目前是不是有可能針對這些建物來做一個汰換實棉建材這樣的一個特別的一個補助會不會有在這次的特別預算裡面並沒有編列因為我們所編列的部分是根據風災受損的這些家屋"},{"start":211.134,"end":232.464,"text":"所以說我們內政部這邊編列的部分基本上都沒有針對石棉瓦這邊所以我在這邊的時候也想藉由這個機會的時候特別提出來這件事情就是說整個石棉建材這部分的時候因為它什麼時候會破碎不曉得一個風災來就會碰到像這一次坦白說整個台南高雄"},{"start":233.524,"end":249.479,"text":"沿海地區的時候石棉建材的廢棄物據說有好幾萬噸一萬五千噸一萬五千噸嘛能夠處理的量其實很有限大概有七成都還沒有辦法處理包委員大概清了一半左右"},{"start":249.599,"end":279.068,"text":"能量的部分 所以我們希望藉由這狀態的時候能夠先未雨綢繆把這相關的事情希望我們內政部這邊其實能夠針對這些實棉建材的部分能夠好好去處理然後經濟部這邊的時候因為我們很多有一些節能補助的一些狀態那我們也希望對於整個就是實棉屋頂的一個汰換的時候能夠有一個更積極的方式去做一個有效的一個因應 有沒有辦法"},{"start":279.488,"end":307.782,"text":"可以 我們目前是有針對一些節能的這些設施可以來補助給企業好 那這部分就是因為我在想說這次的風災當中的時候我們看到食棉這個問題它可能變成一個災害一般的災害變成一個整個社會的一個公衛的一個問題所以我們希望環境部跟我們經濟部內政部這邊的時候可以好好去處理然後也希望有相關的一個單位也都能夠一起去"},{"start":308.302,"end":308.322,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時32分）謝謝主席。我想先請一下環境部，然後是內政部跟經濟部。"],["主席：經濟部、內政部，還有環境部。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：先請環境部，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝主席今天安排了丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案的詢答，在這一次丹娜絲颱風跟七二八豪雨之後不僅帶來災情，我特別注意到了一件事，因為在很多的新聞資料當中，看到了石綿建材的問題嚴重浮現出來，因為石綿建材的石綿在1977年就被國際認為是一級致癌物，部長一定知道這個狀態嘛！那我們在這一次看到的災情中，好多好多的災民跟清潔人員，他們用徒手在搬運破碎的石綿瓦，甚至有很多車子輾過了一個破碎的石綿瓦，石綿的纖維粉塵到處在竄。","我想請教一下，因為在這一次600億的特別預算當中，環境部有特別編列7億，坦白說在600億裡面的7億其實不算多，可是很精準地放在石綿建材廢清運作業，我想請問一下部長，現在石綿建材這件事情，你認為這是災後碰到的問題，還是整個公衛的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。第一個，石綿破損了才需要馬上清運，如果沒有破損，等到整個要改建的時候，再把它移除掉就可以了。所以，這種所謂正常的排除我們每年大概有2到3億的預算補助給地方來做這個事情，那這次是因為大規模的有1萬5,000噸，我們要處理已經破損的量，所以編列七億多，事實上我們還有爭取別的預算……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以目前每年有二億多是在環境部這邊來協助做這樣的處理，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，補助給地方。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，我想問下一個問題，因為我看環境部的資料，有特別提到全臺石綿瓦的建物總共高達24萬棟，全臺到處都有，總共有二十四萬多棟，你們這部分是怎麼統計出來的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是用衛星遙測繁衍出來、推算出來的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：衛星遙測出來的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：還有無人飛機。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以可能是一般的住宅，也可能是農舍……"],["彭部長啓明：還有企業、工廠。"],["鄭委員正鈐：企業，對不對？搞不好文化部有一些歷史建築可能也都包含在裡頭。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可能包括了我們教育部體系下面有很多學校也都會有，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，針對這個部分，我想請教一下內政部，部長，我們目前是不是有可能針對這些建物來做汰換石綿建材這樣特別的補助？會不會有？"],["劉部長世芳：在這次的特別預算裡面並沒有編列，因為我們所編列的部分是根據風災受損的這些家屋……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以你們內政部這邊編列的部分，基本上都沒有針對石綿瓦？"],["劉部長世芳：因為它是根據風災條例，所以是以雲嘉南地區為主……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，我也想藉由這個機會特別提出來這件事情，整個石綿建材這部分，因為不曉得它什麼時候會破碎，一個風災來就會碰到。像這一次坦白說，整個臺南、高雄沿海地區，石綿建材的廢棄物據說有好幾萬噸……"],["彭部長啓明：1萬5,000噸。"],["鄭委員正鈐：1萬5,000噸嘛，能夠處理的量其實很有限，大概有七成都還沒有辦法處理……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，大概清了一半左右了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：量能的部分……所以，我們希望藉由這個狀態能夠先未雨綢繆，把相關的事情，希望你們內政部這邊針對這些石綿建材好好去處理。至於經濟部的部分，因為我們有一些節能補助，我們也希望對於整個石綿屋頂的汰換，能夠有一個更積極的方式去做有效的因應，有沒有辦法？"],["何次長晉滄：可以，我們目前是有針對一些節能的設施可以來補助給企業。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為我在想這次的風災當中，我們看到石綿這個問題，一般的災害可能變成整個社會的公衛問題，所以我們希望環境部、經濟部跟內政部可以好好去處理，也希望相關的單位都能夠一起去關注到你們各自主管的建物，包括跟學生非常有關的教育部，我們都希望能夠好好的把石綿建築的問題解決掉，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。","接著請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請法務部長 謝謝 麻煩部長委員好 部長好 謝謝主席我其實想要先附和一下剛王玉川委員說的啦 公聽會我也認為應該要辦一下 主要的原因是我還記得上個禮拜我們在教文修這個AI基本法的黨團協商的時候 當時的主席"},{"start":26.741,"end":46.568,"text":"吳宗憲委員你也有在嘛你不是主席但是你有參與這個黨團協商的討論你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情大家對AI非常非常的關心所以你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去然後就把這個法案寫好寫滿基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦然後其實也違反了我們在立法的時候書寫文字的精神"},{"start":47.228,"end":74.134,"text":"那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在"},{"start":75.094,"end":91.187,"text":"之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人"},{"start":91.727,"end":115.57,"text":"那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿"},{"start":116.591,"end":135.343,"text":"那我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉辦詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子呢是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的這個命案"},{"start":136.503,"end":163.833,"text":"當時呢 這個人確實就開始出去串證了那新聞報導也都出來了相關的那個手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感 還有民眾的擔心那當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件那個律師被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說"},{"start":164.893,"end":185.702,"text":"不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人喔提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情那當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院啦可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見"},{"start":188.933,"end":210.031,"text":"謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱明那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱明的決定是辦不成的"},{"start":213.434,"end":227.712,"text":"所以包括很多犯罪集團不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來做證或來說實話"},{"start":229.694,"end":244.704,"text":"那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵辦尤其像我們像那個那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用篡政的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話"},{"start":247.646,"end":269.113,"text":"那個德國美國法國澳洲國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做進展那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括的洗錢等等的還虐捅的殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的"},{"start":269.813,"end":286.289,"text":"這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好"},{"start":289.778,"end":304.473,"text":"因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容"},{"start":306.115,"end":314.343,"text":"他說目前我們來看 目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅 偽造 變造證據就所謂的滅證 對不對或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證"},{"start":321.309,"end":340.707,"text":"所以一個是滅政一個是篡政所以就文藝上的解釋篡政是指對於人政的妨害而滅政是指對於物政的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待篡政跟滅政的區別"},{"start":344.185,"end":362.895,"text":"那個串證是人嘛對證人嘛我剛已經說是人那個人的證言人的證言最容易去做勾穿而且他有人情的壓力甚至因為迫於一些的恐嚇怎麼樣他不敢或者為了己身的利益他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的一個犯罪這個串證罪"},{"start":364.035,"end":391.814,"text":"這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證這個如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成好那關於誤證就是所謂的滅證的部分那我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論"},{"start":393.855,"end":413.385,"text":"那但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的篡政行為"},{"start":414.825,"end":440.897,"text":"積壓的替代手段像交保的這部分像積壓的替代最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我們人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才委員有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症"},{"start":441.577,"end":467.504,"text":"魅症如果留著 那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪那所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那什麼羈押的提案說我們就是譬如說科技監控啦還有定期報導都是要防止他脫逃"},{"start":468.88,"end":491.651,"text":"這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能"},{"start":492.151,"end":514.144,"text":"所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串證這個部分從羈押要件拿掉"},{"start":515.335,"end":534.346,"text":"謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防"},{"start":534.986,"end":557.431,"text":"那檢察官要舉證說他有羈押的必要性 羈押的理由 羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要 合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護 那是非常的周延的他可以請律師 有公防 有開庭另外 即使他被羈押 他還可以抗告"},{"start":558.191,"end":579.54,"text":"那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護在法律的程序是非常的一個周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像詐團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那真的無從伸張啊那個所以我們非常擔心擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人的保護真的是因為不能換不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的"},{"start":587.083,"end":606.225,"text":"所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在的法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權力這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的"},{"start":606.906,"end":636.486,"text":"所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是"},{"start":637.587,"end":656.72,"text":"目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險"},{"start":658.693,"end":663.456,"text":"唸完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察"},{"start":674.324,"end":695.199,"text":"除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級"},{"start":696.44,"end":715.508,"text":"左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在"},{"start":717.489,"end":733.643,"text":"提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行"},{"start":737.326,"end":758.541,"text":"讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見"},{"start":760.395,"end":788.801,"text":"謝謝委員 我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員對 矯正人員的這部分就是由教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒員這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒員都不得假釋的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的一個問題都是非常的緊迫"},{"start":789.441,"end":817.702,"text":"那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對 那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍"},{"start":818.897,"end":839.534,"text":"所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來嗎我們那個在行政已經審查已經八月十號最後一次了齁那即將要定案了齁那我們還要再會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點齁它是一個執行面的問題"},{"start":840.475,"end":866.466,"text":"它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽教證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定哪一級這個在技術性在法官這邊是有他的一個困難"},{"start":867.847,"end":892.503,"text":"標準是不是一致好沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用游教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結"},{"start":893.724,"end":920.649,"text":"真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能嘗試久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人"},{"start":921.149,"end":940.805,"text":"的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關沒有就是那個宮廷會的事情"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時14分）謝謝主席，有請法務部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長好，謝謝主席。我其實也想要先附和一下剛剛王義川委員說的，我也認為應該要辦一下公聽會，主要的原因是，我還記得上個禮拜，我們在教文修AI基本法黨團協商的時候，當時吳宗憲委員有在嘛，你不是主席但是你有參與黨團協商的討論，你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情，大家對AI非常非常的關心，你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去，然後就把法案寫好寫滿，基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦，其實也違反了在立法的時候書寫文字的精神。我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院的說法，對於無期徒刑的調整，或者是對於國人的期待，我們確實要有所回應。我認為除了條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛，你們那邊也還在等，是不是有機會開公聽會啦！這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議，好不好？就請主席放在心裡頭，謝謝主席。","接下來我想問部長，除了剛剛講公聽會之外，我想先回到第一個，在之前民眾黨有提出一個版本，是要修串證這個事情，我想部長應該已經有先做功課了。也就是說，串證這個部分，民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉，就是所謂的「勾串共犯或證人」。當時這個提案一出爐之後，現在是付委的狀況，但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議，包含非常非常多擔心，包含他們提到有台積電洩密案，這三個工程師有可能串證；或者是電信詐騙的行為，這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下，就開始出去串證、串好串滿。我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子，第一個，是雞排妹御用律師涉扮詐團內鬼，法官認為有勾串滅證的可能性，所以裁准羈押禁見，這是第一個。","第二個案子，是連國民黨委員都非常關心的臺中豐原五口命案，當時這個人確實就開始出去串證，新聞報導也都出來了，相關手機的簡訊也都查到了，所以我們其實真的很擔心，如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉，後續就社會實質上，大家會怎麼看這個事情？民眾的觀感還有民眾的擔心。","當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞，有一個正在審查中的案件，被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官和法官說，立法院不是要修法了嗎？要把串證從羈押要件拿掉？明明我們立法院還在討論，可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助詐騙當事人，而且是行為人喔！提出這個聲請，所以我想要請部長回應一下，你怎麼看這個事情？當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院，可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解，我們很想聽聽看你們的意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，這個的確茲事體大，因為串證是羈押最核心的一個羈押理由，如果把它拿掉了，就變成大串證。譬如委員剛剛有關心的詐團，甚至剴剴命案，劉姓保母是姊妹關係，如果沒有用串證的理由羈押禁見，那剴剴命案絕對是辦不成的。包括很多犯罪集團，如果拿掉之後，整個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅、恐嚇，去干擾證人，要麼就全部大串證，要麼就是他不敢來作證或說實話，這樣真的會嚴重影響整個案件的偵辦，尤其像詐欺案，詐團幾乎有八、九成的比例是用串證的理由羈押，所以我們認為茲事體大。更何況以國際來講，德國、美國、法國、澳洲、國際法院都是以串證作為羈押的理由，因為不以串證為羈押理由的話，我們就沒辦法禁見，那詐團、命案、洗錢、虐童的、殺人的，包括詐團律師這一種的……這是完全沒辦法去辦，我覺得茲事體大，這個是嚴重且危險的，如果拿掉會影響整個社會的安定，我無法去預想結果，如果是這樣的話，那整個詐團都要開香檳慶祝了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我的見解也是這樣，我們來往下看。我相信在整個輿論的發燒之下，我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解，我們回到刑訴法裡面來看目前民眾黨團提案的內容。他說目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅、偽造、變造證據，就是所謂的滅證，或者是勾串共犯或證人，就是所謂的串證，所以一個是滅證、一個是串證，就文意上的解釋，串證是指對於人證的妨害，而滅證是指對於物證的妨害，我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的要件之一，所以，我也想問部長，你怎麼告訴國人，如何看待串證跟滅證的區別？"],["鄭部長銘謙：串證是人嘛，證人……"],["陳委員培瑜：我剛剛已經說是人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：人的證言最容易去勾串，而且他有人情的壓力，甚至因為迫於一些恐嚇或怎麼樣，他不敢，或者為了己身的利益，他去大串證，就像集團性的犯罪，串證是必然的，你不能期待他不串證，所以勾串證人如果給它修掉的話，修掉後我相信我們詐團幾乎辦不成了。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於物證就是所謂的滅證的部分，我們剛剛說，如果我們可以看得出區別，我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過，就變成行為人可以串證？因為不會被羈押嘛！可是卻不可以滅證，所以，我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方，我認為立法院真的還是要進行實質的討論。但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面，他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性，我們辦公室的研究是說，目前具保、責付、限制住居這些所謂的羈押替代手段，就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的串證行為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：羈押的替代手段，現在羈押最主要就是要防止他逃匿，押嫌疑人這個行為最主要就是防止脫逃，另一個就是保全證據。另外我們剛才說的勾串是保全證據的問題，我們都是用證據來認定犯罪事實，證據如果勾串的話就真的沒辦法了。剛剛委員有提到滅證的問題，如果滅證能夠留著，勾串反而刪掉，這是一個非常奇怪的做法，對案件的偵辦以及追緝這些團體性的犯罪甚至他個人，都有很大的困難，就沒辦法定罪，對於社會的衝擊非常非常大。至於怎樣去替代羈押，就是譬如說科技監控、定期報到，都是要防止他脫逃，這是防止他脫逃而已。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是還是沒有辦法阻止他們串證。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒辦法處理證據上的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題，因為我們的看法也是如此，所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論。","依民眾黨黨團提案的立法說明，他們認為以串證作為羈押的理由在實務現場有被濫用的可能，他們有這個擔心，所以提出修法。我也很想問，從法務部的角度你們怎麼看，有沒有可能遭到濫用，或是你們在實務現場真的有看過濫用的狀況？如果真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例，我們如何回來檢討配套，而不是把串證這部分從羈押要件拿掉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。現在羈押是法官的權力，採法官保留，羈押權在法官，不是檢察官。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為有羈押必要，要跟法官聲請，法官要開羈押庭，被告也要請律師來，在羈押庭會非常激烈地攻防，檢察官要舉證有羈押的必要性、羈押的理由及合乎羈押要件等等，也必須讓法院確信有羈押的必要、合乎羈押的要件，法官才會裁准羈押，所以對人權的保護非常周延，他可以請律師，有攻防、有開庭，另外即使他被羈押還可以抗告，抗告到高院有時還會再發回，所以在法律程序上對人權的保護非常周延。","如果說這個拿掉之後，我們很擔心被害人例如詐團的被害人就求助無門，剴剴命案被害人真的無從伸張啊，所以我們非常擔心對社會的衝擊、對被害人的的保護，因為不能定罪的話，對被害人、對社會的衝擊非常非常的大，這是我非常擔心的。","在人權保護這部分，我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方，我想以現在的法律程序，全部都是法官的權力，是法官的職權，所以整個程序應該是蠻周延的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我認為就您剛剛的回答，我們確實還是需要回來立法院好好討論，但我剛剛是提出我的疑問，也希望後續在立法院討論的時候，不再只是直接表決。","第二個我想要回到今天的主題，就是吳宗憲委員提案版本關於無期徒刑的部分。剛開始我先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游毓蘭委員也是游教授的投書，就在昨天的中國時報，其中有一句話他談到第一級的無期徒刑，也就是目前各個委員提案版本，他說第一級的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中，而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題，反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員，讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險。念完這句話，我就想到其實在這個會期的司法及法制委員會，我們有針對基層矯正人員的壓力做過相關的質詢跟對話，我記得也是主席安排的，然後我們做了很多現場考察，除了希望現場的狀況可以有所調整，也希望給予基層人員支持。所以看到游教授這篇投書的時候，我想要請教法務部，你如何看目前所有委員的這個提案版本？如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋，或者根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級左右，先不管三級的分法有沒有問題、有沒有相關的配套，其實我們真正擔心的是第一線戒護人員，他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰？我先提出我的問題，如果是這樣的話，光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難、實務工作量增加。","再回到法官這一塊，剛剛吳委員在提案說明的時候，說要把這部分交給法官決定，可是我們非常擔心跟懷疑，法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎？他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎？這就是為什麼我剛剛提出，如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是就在委員會裡面進行，讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見，包含法官、基層矯正人員、檢察官及所有的法務人員、專家學者，我認為所有剛剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分地討論，讓這個版本真的可以做到最好，又符合大家對於這件事情的期待。這邊我想聽聽看部長的意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我想第一個問題……"],["陳委員培瑜：第一個是關於基層矯正人員。"],["鄭部長銘謙：矯正人員這部分……"],["陳委員培瑜：就是游教授的投書。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想無期徒刑一定是會增加，不得……或全面無期徒刑都不得假釋的話，真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作。現在的負荷量、監獄超收的情形，與管理員跟收容的比例問題都非常緊迫，跟外國也是完全沒辦法比，所以我們必須要錢，還有擴充設備設施。我們很擔心直接貿然全部弄的話有沒有辦法管理。"],["陳委員培瑜：第二個是關於法官的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外關於這部分，所以我們那時候提的法案限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂而判死刑、無期徒刑或十年以下有期徒刑，就是限縮在這個範圍。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們其實有版本，只是還沒有送進來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：已經在行政院審查，8月的時候最後一次，即將要定案了，我們還要再會銜司法院，應該很快就會送到，順利的話應該下個會期會送到立法院。","另外第二個法官的問題，我們知道假釋是一個恩典，它是執行面的問題，不是刑的種類問題，所以我們也希望由法官就個案去看可不可以假釋，因為刑以後還有整個管理、教化的問題嘛，沒有那麼簡單，所以我是覺得要多聽聽矯正署、多聽法官的意見。在個案裁判時就要直接定哪一級，在技術性、在法官這邊有他的困難，而且標準是不是一致？"],["陳委員培瑜：好、沒問題，謝謝部長回答我的問題。其實剛剛吳宗憲委員有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好，但如果牽扯到刑分，確實有不同罪的強度，如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決，讓人民可以信任，免得我們以為要解決問題，但可能製造了新的問題。","最後在結束前，我再次引用游教授投書的最後一段話作為總結：畢竟真正的正義，不是單純的「重刑」或「報復」，而是讓社會在安全與人權之間找到平衡，才能長治久安。","我也想要提醒大家，不要忘了臺灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段，其實在馬英九總統執政的時候，我們正式把國際人權公約國內法化。確實在很多議題上，我們當然需要考慮被害人家屬或是相關人的心情、感受，但也不要忘記基層人員、法官的意見，還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡，我認為也非常重要，以上。謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我先回應陳委員有關公聽會的事情，公聽會的部分，我們當然可以再思考看看有沒有這個必要性，我在5月22日審理幼童案公聽會的時候，已經把它放在議程裡面，所以就不得假釋的部分，其實我們在公聽會裡面有討論過了，那麼已經辦過一次公聽會，有沒有需要再辦？這部分我再思考一下。","剛剛有提到監所，我們最近一直排視察也是為了不得假釋的配套，因為這是一連串的，這就是我們前陣子為什麼一直去監所的原因。當然游毓蘭說的是一個很好的建議，但其實這世界上很多國家都有不得假釋。謝謝，您剛剛的建議，我會思考一下，看有沒有必要再開公聽會，這是給您的回應，謝謝陳委員。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 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主席長跟內政部"},{"start":23.165,"end":48.022,"text":"兩位部長早我想今天是丹納斯颱風的特別條例的特別預算那從7月6號肆虐南台灣然後8月15我們三讀通過特別條例這個禮拜五預計會把特別預算也通過這是因為在朝野有共識的情況下我想問一下內政部是災害防救的主管機關部長你覺得這樣的速度算快了嗎"},{"start":49.077,"end":70.607,"text":"如果說以我們把這個特別預算跟這個特別預算的條例送到立法院來非常謝謝立法院的委員的協助跟幫忙所以這也是這次研會最重要的任務因為剛好有這樣的狀況所以立法院的配合我相信兩個月對災民來說可能對他們來說是慢的但對我們來說制度上可能算是歷來以來最快的"},{"start":71.127,"end":88.445,"text":"但是主席長現在這樣的預算的流程大概就是固定以後有三單發生大概兩個月左右能夠通過特別預算就不錯了是嗎你覺得這樣的速度可以嗎不是 因為我們也盡量再趕因為我們這一次大概是也是"},{"start":89.522,"end":110.601,"text":"你們盡量再趕 立法院盡量再趕但是兩個月對災民來說還是辛苦的因為我們一般除了這個特別預算之外我們都會先用移緩季節的部分對 有災害準備金有第二預備金不是 還有部分移緩季節還要特別統籌所以我們之前就已經有下撥100多億"},{"start":112.443,"end":119.416,"text":"所以我的意思是說災害防救他應該也建立一個制度化的流程所以內政部劉部長"},{"start":120.686,"end":150.105,"text":"其實內政部一直在討論說將來是不是要針對災害防治救助的法訂立一個專法消防署也曾經做過研究其實這是一個我剛剛講這個流程跟他的機制跟相關的剛剛主計長的講的那些SOP其實他應該有一個完整的系統而不是每一次突然間來然後我們大家就在這邊罵來罵去然後變成最後弄一個特別條例出來部長你們這個研究你知道嗎在部內研究很久了"},{"start":150.365,"end":166.387,"text":"是報告委員我想您說的部分是災害防救在一般來講本來主要是屬於應變那現在呢所碰到的困擾就是說在應變過後的這些復原跟重建是否速度會出問題那這個是要各部會一起來配合"},{"start":166.527,"end":193.758,"text":"消防署在101年就做過研究我希望內政部跟各單位我覺得這個部分應該是說我們台灣天災真的很多了所以這個機制如果是對消防救災單位還有復健來說就像我們疫情我們也是碰到了那麼大的疫情才建立了非常多的制度我也希望內政部在這個基礎之上用這一次的風災做參考是不是要訂出一個比較完整的機制而不是每一次都找各部會來討論他應該已經有一個"},{"start":196.579,"end":214.875,"text":"剛剛有特別提到災害防救的第一要務當然是救人為主的應變所以我可以說如果你們曾經研究過災後重建跟防救的部分要訂立相關的法案我覺得這個流程不要研究完了的部分擺在家裡啦好不好第二個就是主席長"},{"start":216.116,"end":234.17,"text":"這次的預算是用特別條例來訂的然後行政院是說只需要560草野協商說太少了應該到600所以立法跟行政達成共識所以三讀立法通過這也是難得立法院要增加預算行政院同意的是嗎"},{"start":235.555,"end":258.293,"text":"是 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災民中南部非常的嚴重包括花東那所以在這一次我看災損的部分超過1億以上包括了落花生 芝麻等包括了柿子也3成那麼水蜜桃也幾乎20%以上都受損所以在這樣的情況之下本行一再的也告訴行政院包括我們台中也一定要列入從沒有列入到"},{"start":78.319,"end":105.625,"text":"聆聽這個明末聆聽百姓的聲音終於也要列入了我也特別感謝將台中市列入在這個重建條例的這個補助範圍之內那所以本席也要跟你討論的也就是這一次的範圍非常的散播各地而且樣態都不一樣樣態都不一樣所以本席具體建議在現今救助的時候"},{"start":106.618,"end":112.667,"text":"以及這一個復建都必須要重減重塑 對不對"},{"start":114.096,"end":140.589,"text":"謝謝委員我想整個這一次的災損如果從淡拉斯颱風一直到我們現在的羊乳颱風全國大概是應該是43.2億左右那台中的部分最主要是羊乳颱風就像您說的羊乳颱風的損失還有其他的0728的部分逃逸損失所以我們在這一次救災的部分的時候像我想委員知道在公告的時候我們會非常及時都是用主動公告"},{"start":141.169,"end":169.687,"text":"然後主動公告以後我們救災加補助補助不夠再加我們的金融支持那補助的部分我們把相關的這些補助的設施從原來的五成拉到八成那這個拉到八成以後對農民的復健是有幫助的那不夠的部分我們在利息的部分也是一年免利息過去是半年從1.415的部分也免利息一年那這個部分我都會用這一些的措施本席再一次具體"},{"start":170.808,"end":189.536,"text":"具體來要求在整個勘災的速度必須要加速現今救助的時候也必須要加速因為他們還要復建復建的流程也必須要加速這是非常重要最後還有一點"},{"start":190.436,"end":214.802,"text":"因為整個樣態不一雷暴雨 地球暖化以前從來沒有想過的問題都出來的情況之下我們必須要重新去盤點在災害受傷之後我們要補助的範圍到底是什麼譬如我們的南瓜整個我們的瓜架全部流掉了全部壞掉了"},{"start":217.043,"end":226.726,"text":"那這個部分我們也應該要列入所以我具體要求必須要重新去盤點目前的樣態去作為你補助協助的一個重點跟項目謝謝委員提醒我們已經在做重新盤點然後必要的天然災害救助辦法我們也會調整"},{"start":237.97,"end":251.62,"text":"必須要重新盤點補助的項目以及天然災害救助的辦法在這一次的風災水災當中讓我們可以得到了這些學習跟教訓重新去盤點好不好你把盤點出來要給本席接下來本席想請經濟部主席經濟部 謝謝經濟部"},{"start":265.174,"end":278.653,"text":"這一次台電的員工真的超辛苦所以本席講了第三次了我們的高層要怎麼樣協助我們台電的人員能夠調配人力有做了嗎"},{"start":280.235,"end":298.526,"text":"包委員這個部分我們跟台電這邊都有一起在規劃救災人力的一個部分已經有在規劃所以我具體要求要去盤點怎麼樣去協調人力幫助在第一線因為數千支的電線搞到倒斷那這些要怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":302.868,"end":312.137,"text":"人員要怎麼調配非常重要你把你們調配順便資料給本席第二個昨天本席跟卓院長討論卓院長也說將電網韌性包括特別條例跟這次災我們有300多億那我們要怎麼樣他告訴我本席說你們在評估電網地下化的一個評估"},{"start":328.615,"end":332.984,"text":"有沒有做是現在正在評估中那個評估大概多久時間會出來跟委員報告那個全面地下化"},{"start":340.862,"end":348.645,"text":"這個命題我們會從容易自災的地方開始做啦就是說容易受到颱風等等影響的地方兩個月兩個月的時間將全國那個電力電感電線地下化的評估做出來兩個月送交給本席所以本席就是希望怎麼樣除了第一線的人力調配第二個我們在災的時候"},{"start":367.992,"end":384.004,"text":"我要請教是不是電線地下化對我們的栽的防治是有幫助的是不是跟委員報告地下化對風災來講是有幫助的是有幫助的要全面考慮好 全面考慮所以兩個月後將報告給本席最後一個議題再30秒就好請我們的主席長我請問一個議題就好了請回座請主席長好"},{"start":395.051,"end":402.976,"text":"不是啊 蔣議員你這樣子的話大家都亂掉了啊主席講 在這一次你的預備金編列30億是比以往特別預算編列好 編列你本來是0.5 1.5到最高4.8但是你是5% 為什麼你的這一次的預備金編列會達到5%是創歷史新高 依據是什麼"},{"start":421.007,"end":423.351,"text":"主席長主席長你提書面了啦提書面了啦那將書面資料給本席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":334,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時11分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。首先邀請農業部長。"],["主席：農業部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，救災跟救急一樣重要，所以在第一時間，本席認為這個是不分藍綠白，我們必須要全力的協助我們的災民，全力的將這個特別條例趕快通過，今天終於把預算送過來，所以本席要特別跟你討論在這一次的特別預算裡頭，農業部的部分是編了203億1,425萬7,000元，來協助我們的農民、災民，中南部災情非常的嚴重，包括花東。所以這一次我看災損的部分超過1億以上的，包括落花生、芝麻等，包括柿子也達到三成，水蜜桃也幾乎是20%以上都受損，所以在這樣的情況之下，本席一再的告訴行政院，包括我們臺中也一定要列入，從沒有列入到聆聽民瘼、聆聽百姓的聲音，終於也列入了，我也特別感謝能夠將臺中市列入重建條例的補助範圍之內。本席也要跟你討論的是，這一次的範圍散布各地，而且樣態都不一樣，所以本席具體建議，現金救助以及復建都必須從簡、從速，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。我想關於這一次整個災損，如果從丹娜絲颱風一直到現在的楊柳颱風，全國應該是43.2億左右的災損，臺中的部分最主要是楊柳颱風，就像您說的楊柳颱風的損失，還有之前0728的部分豪雨損失，所以我們在這一次救災的時候，我想委員也知道，在公告的時候，我們會非常即時，都是用主動公告，主動公告以後，我們是救災加補助，補助不夠會再加我們的金融支持，而補助的部分，我們是把相關的補助設施從原來的五成拉到八成，拉到八成以後，對農民的復建是有幫助的，那不夠的部分，我們在1.415%利息的部分是1年免利息，過去是半年，這個部分我們都會用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對這些措施，本席再一次具體要求，整個勘災的速度必須加速，現金救助的時候也必須要加速，因為他們還要復建，復建的流程也必須加速，這非常重要。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後還有一點，因為整個樣態不一，雷暴雨、地球暖化，以前從來沒有想過的問題都出來的情況之下，我們必須重新去盤點，在災害造成損失之後，我們要補助的範圍到底是什麼？誠如我們的南瓜，整個瓜架全部流掉了、全部壞掉了，這個部分我們也應該要列入，所以我具體要求，必須重新去盤點目前的樣態作為你們補助、協助的重點跟項目。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員提醒，我們已經在做重新盤點，必要的天然災害救助辦法我們也會調整。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：必須重新盤點補助的項目以及天然災害救助辦法，在這一次的風災、水災當中，讓我們得到這些學習跟教訓，重新盤點好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你盤點出來後，再提供給本席。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席想請經濟部。主席，請經濟部，謝謝。"],["主席：經濟部。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一次台電的員工真的超辛苦，所以本席講第三次了，你們的高層要怎麼樣協助台電的人員能夠調配人力，有做了嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，這個部分我們跟台電這邊都有一起在規劃救災人力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經有在規劃？"],["何次長晉滄：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我具體要求，你們要去盤點怎麼樣去協調人力來幫助第一線人員，因為數千支電線桿倒斷，這些要怎麼樣去處理、人員要怎麼調配就非常重要，請把你們調配的書面資料提供給本席。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個，昨天本席跟卓院長討論，卓院長也說，將電網韌性包括特別條例跟這次災損，我們有三百多億，那我們要怎麼樣……他告訴本席，你們在做電網地下化的評估，有沒有做？"],["何次長晉滄：是，現在正在評估中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個評估大概多久時間會出來？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，關於全面地下化這個命題，我們會從容易致災的地方開始做，就是容易受到颱風……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們的評估什麼時候會出來？沒關係，你告訴我一個時間點。"],["曾董事長文生：兩個月。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩個月的時間將全國的電力、電桿、電線地下化的評估做出來，並送交給本席。本席希望的是，除了第一線的人力調配；第二個，我們在災的時候，我要請教……"],["主席：瓊瓔委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是電線地下化對災的防治是有幫助的？是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，地下化對風災來講是有幫助的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是有幫助的。"],["曾董事長文生：要全面考慮。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，全面考慮。所以兩個月後將報告提供給本席。最後一個議題，再30秒就好了。"],["主席：不行啦、不行啦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請我們的主計長，我問一個議題就好了。請回座，請主計長，30秒就好了，謝謝。"],["主席：不是啊，瓊瓔委員，你這樣的話，大家都亂掉啦！登記了五十幾個人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，這一次你們的預備金編列30億，是比以往特別預算編列……"],["主席：瓊瓔委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本來是0.5%、1.5%，最高是4.8%，但是你們是5%，為什麼這一次預備金編列會達到5%，創歷史新高？依據是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：莫拉克它本身也編30億。"],["主席：主計長，你提書面了啦。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那將書面資料提供給本席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝瓊瓔委員。接著請張智倫委員質詢。","不好意思，因為今天登記發言的委員太多了，請各位委員嚴守時間，在我們的會場，請大家安靜、保持安靜。"],["張委員智倫：（10時19）感謝主席。有請環境部彭部長以及經濟部何次長。"],["主席：好，經濟部、環境部。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝，我想先請教彭部長。彭部長，我現在要先請教你，有關於丹娜絲颱風重創臺南，強風意外揭露我們臺灣的巨大挑戰，環境部預估全臺總共有33處案場的光電板受損，約13萬5,000片太陽能電板損壞，這個數字是過去五年所有廢棄太陽能板總和的2.5倍，部長知道這件事情嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["張委員智倫：現在因為颱風的關係，導致太陽能電板的損壞度非常高，而且非常多的光電板有受到污染，我們也看到新聞有報導，尤其嘉義非常嚴重，不僅有回收業者在現場去把這些太陽能光電板直接破碎，造成沒辦法回收的情形，已經造成環境的污染。部長，我是想要跟你報告一件事情，我非常擔心，就像我之前跟你請教的，我們的光電板問題是前端無法處理、後端無法回收，前面很多委員都已經請教過你有關於前端處理的部分，你也公開表示，已有要求廠商在9月初的時候一定要完成處理的部分，可是我現在更擔心的是後端回收的部分。你有沒有統計過，所有這樣子的太陽能板總共有13.5萬片，現在回收業者已經回收4萬片，你們的說法是已處理，可是我想是堆置在這些回收業的廠辦裡面，有大概6萬片是合法擱置在倉庫裡面，還有3.5萬片就像剛剛我跟您報告的，還無法處理當中。現在有這麼多的光電板沒有辦法處理，也沒辦法回收，有沒有去統計無法回收的量大概占百分之多少？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，現在我們的處理量能一個月大約2,900噸，遠大於這一次大概是2,600噸的量，所以理論上是可以，但是我們以前沒有遇過一個月去處理那麼大量，廠商也都有在處理。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，所以現在有沒有去統計……因為現在這些太陽能板跟過去正常回收模式是不一樣的，它運回去都非常的困難，如何放在機器裡面去做PVC材料分離，對於這樣的問題，有沒有確定無法回收的比例大概是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：這個還是要能源署那邊做最後編號的統計，目前我們粗估來看，大概不到5%左右，大多數是可以正常回收，那個樣子沒有被損壞，但是它已經泡水了。"],["張委員智倫：因為昨天有別的委員在請教您，就是太陽能板沒辦法回收的大概占10%，你現在的意思是，因為颱風而損壞且更加污染、更加殘破的能源板有不到5%不能回收？"],["彭部長啓明：就是說它其實……"],["張委員智倫：這個數字我覺得還是要更清楚地來回答。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，昨天講的是一個太陽能板正常進去大概是92到99%可以回收。"],["張委員智倫：我的問題是，這13.5萬片的太陽能板，總共有百分之幾的太陽能板是無法回收的？請你們要統計一下，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會統計，因為每一個都有編號，萬一不見的話都可以來算。"],["張委員智倫：這些無法回收的太陽能板要如何處理？第二個，每個月的回收量能就像我剛剛跟大家報告的，現在都已經塞車了，所以嘉義的廠商才沒有辦法把這些太陽能板運到不管是合法暫置場或是處理場去處理，所以目前量能就是堵塞的狀況，每個月到底能實際回收的量能是多少？因此要請部長這邊來處理，實際到底是多少？這個資料是否可以公開？就我們助理上網去查，現在回收業者連一筆都不敢公開，就表示他們現在要處理的資源回收的量都非常嚴重了，更何況是要處理這些太陽能回收板，我覺得這才是最大的問題。","第三個，我要請教部長的是，現在的稽查機制到底是中央稽查，還是地方稽查未來太陽能板回收的狀況？"],["彭部長啓明：回收的機制是我們跟能源署會共同稽查，我們有一套系統，每一個光電板的編號都要清清楚楚，從源頭……"],["張委員智倫：他們會照真正要回收的方式去做，還是會以便宜行事的方法，像我過去跟你請教的，會偷偷把它毀損，然後交給再利用業者處理？這點有沒有辦法做個嚴整的監控？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，沒有現地毀損這個事情，只有現地毀損那個浮筒，那我們也告訴他們說這不允許，也開罰了，所以基本上只有毀壞掉的，等於是太陽光電板必須到回收場做現地處理。"],["張委員智倫：我要跟部長報告，業者會在現場直接毀損的狀況，我先不問那個業者是誰，代表他們收到的SOP就是這樣子嘛！他們拿到這些東西回去回收場，難道會以合格的回收方式處理嗎？這點我要打一個很大的問號。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那三十幾家的業者都OK，只有一家業者是完全不合格的，所以我們才會重罰他，後面也會持續的重罰。"],["張委員智倫：好，後續也要拜託部長跟經濟部，這整個SOP要好好處理一下，不然造成的是整個環境的能源問題。","最後我想請教一下，現在這些破損的太陽能板案場，未來如果這些業者重新再把太陽能板安裝上去的時候，有沒有災害應變計畫等等，以及如果未來發生災難的時候，有沒有大量排除清運計畫？會不會造成像現在這樣前端無法處理，後端無法回收，以及如果廠商真的後來沒有辦法處理的話，政府有任何財務計畫跟這些業者溝通嗎？"],["主席：好，次長……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告……"],["主席：次長，請你以書面回復張智倫委員。"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["張委員智倫：好，拜託，這非常重要，因為這已造成臺灣的污染問題，謝謝主席。"],["主席：是，謝謝，不好意思。"],["張委員智倫：再拜託一下，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國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主席我們請法務部部長好 麻煩部長我們請委員會司法院副秘書長一起麻煩副秘書長好 部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由這個法官來決定白話文是這樣 這法官在判的時候"},{"start":39.386,"end":60.634,"text":"直接判說 我現在判你這個罪 但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說 我判你這個罪 判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級 二級 三級那你如果要假釋 有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋 大概是這樣那這個責任"},{"start":63.157,"end":91.342,"text":"就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論"},{"start":94.096,"end":107.424,"text":"那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法"},{"start":108.345,"end":114.07,"text":"對 可以啊 用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法呢 它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的"},{"start":133.027,"end":162.687,"text":"那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求"},{"start":163.727,"end":178.156,"text":"我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎"},{"start":181.857,"end":201.892,"text":"開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的就大家專家學者來討論我覺得當然是那個非常好的一個事情那這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法嘛我們尊重那個主責機關還有那個大院的權限那可是我在這裡呢就是還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議就是一起思考的"},{"start":202.452,"end":229.346,"text":"因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範啊那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得"},{"start":230.146,"end":241.91,"text":"但是就是說這個社會上啊總是覺得說 啊現在都不能判私刑啊不能判私刑啊 最少也把他拐到死是 會有這種講法嘛是 就不能把他判私刑啊最少也把他拐到都不能給出來太可惡了 太可惡了但是呢 因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是呢 我就不給他出來啦我就這樣 這種的太可惡了不給他出來 所以 鄭部長這個"},{"start":260.37,"end":284.111,"text":"請問一下 你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋 不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭 你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下在行政院的這個草案裡頭 大概有哪些類型"},{"start":285.171,"end":300.238,"text":"就是行政院啊 法務部啊 或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些啊 就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計齁 大概現在 大概"},{"start":301.258,"end":319.817,"text":"最主要限縮在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都十年以上有期處置的罪齁我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些啥這個比較重要另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了齁被撤銷後再再犯無期"},{"start":320.137,"end":338.57,"text":"被判無期徒刑 這個也不能假設好 這是你們的看法啦對 因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分 我知道用這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說 哇 這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個 虐童 這個坑喔那也許虐童 他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童 可是大家看到那個影片啦哇 這些 哪有這麼坑喔"},{"start":350.114,"end":370.405,"text":"那對這個小朋友的身心啊 都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種不可以保護小孩 最重要是把他關起來就是會有這樣的一個 一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些 就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些 這種就不要給他假釋 給他關起來"},{"start":371.738,"end":392.145,"text":"那這種事情不用討論嗎部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這部分"},{"start":392.945,"end":406.954,"text":"這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面因為的確是人審公分一定是人審公分 天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公分大家看電視說 哇 這很空喔過了幾年之後判下來"},{"start":414.036,"end":424.724,"text":"這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論啦所以我是建議這樣啦因為這個修法過程喔剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過你們大英到現在我看有沒有要一年啦這個過程中"},{"start":431.329,"end":435.154,"text":"我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待 社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭"},{"start":450.412,"end":462.191,"text":"也不能說這個輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案我是建議說"},{"start":464.337,"end":490.972,"text":"請這個法官的團體啦 檢察官的團體啦 校政署啦 還有一些學者還有一些被害人的家屬啦社會 大家再來討論一下 看說到底哪一些啦 應該列入最剛才這個吳宗憲委員講的這一級 二級 三級啦我覺得這樣才有這個我為什麼特別提這個吳委員的這個一級 二級 三級喔這個法官那麼大的權力齁 這有風險"},{"start":494.132,"end":519.411,"text":"什麼風險呢 就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說 我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉 社會認為很可惡很可惡 判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三 尤其一開始的時候"},{"start":520.373,"end":525.26,"text":"還沒有其他的判例的時候 1 2 3剛開始的時候那一開始的法官 我看 腦膜在燒啦所以這個 副理事長有什麼要補充"},{"start":531.448,"end":550.321,"text":"委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的無期徒刑在事後的時候在執行的時候這這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測"},{"start":553.983,"end":570.317,"text":"事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛才委員說嘛所以你若是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這都分級 下來還有一個制度要來決定這件事情"},{"start":575.086,"end":580.829,"text":"那社會就要討論 那這個制度參與的機制是什麼 參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論 好不好這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會啦所以我是覺得這樣啦 這個案大家討論 把這一些事情我是建議召委啦 再開一個法 社會有共識要不然法務部跟我們說這幾種的啦 故意殺人 殺人未遂"},{"start":604.119,"end":619.014,"text":"可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個什麼一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定"},{"start":619.844,"end":644.616,"text":"那法官的團體 法官應該你如果什麼協會嘛 你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去 還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識 或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們在省下差不多一年的討論 社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院 立法完了之後大家說 蛤 現在該這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦 好 那我就直言到這裡 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時3分）主席，我們請法務部部長。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員義川：請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長，謝謝。"],["王委員義川：部長跟副秘書長，我們今天討論的這個案子，最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由法官來決定？白話文是這樣，法官在判的時候直接判說，我現在判你這個罪，但是你不得假釋，或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案，就是我判你這個罪無期徒刑，但是你是屬於一級、二級、三級，如果你要假釋，有一種叫不能假釋，有一種叫關幾年就可以假釋，大概是這樣。那這個責任就會到法官的手上，剛剛吳宗憲委員也提到，他不想要去定位一、二、三級是犯哪一種罪刑，這由法官來裁量。我先問副秘書長，對於吳委員的提案，現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案，目前大概有什麼樣的討論？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員關心，因為司法院沒有去徵詢個別法官的意見，所以我沒有辦法代表法官回應。不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法？"],["王委員義川：可以啊！用你們院的看法也可以。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平、正義、實踐的考量，所以提出了這個修法。現行法是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋，這個是不是過短？我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的，但是第一個，把無期徒刑分成3級之後，因為它後面的法律效果，是到了第一級永遠都不能假釋；其他的可以滿25年假釋，這個法律效果會差非常多，如果全部委由法官來裁量的話，會變成這個裁量空間的要件太過抽象了，所以我們是建議適用明確性的要求，這個地方如果要這樣分級的話，必須要……"],["王委員義川：如果這個題目大家來開個公聽會討論，請一些法官表示意見，副秘書長，你覺得適合嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：開公聽會，就是讓法官還有法官以外的專家學者大家來討論，我覺得當然是非常好的事情，這部分我們當然是尊重，因為是刑法，我們尊重主責機關還有大院的權限，可是我在這裡還有幾個議題，我們建議可以一起思考的，因為像公民與政治權利國際公約（公政公約）第七條，還有歐洲人權公約第三條都有禁止酷刑處遇的規範，在國際間也討論很多，就是如果有一個處遇是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話，到底有沒有酷刑的議題？我想這都是值得……"],["王委員義川：我懂，但是社會上總是覺得現在都不能判死刑，不能判死刑至少也要把他關到死，會有這種講法。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：不能把他判死刑，至少也把他關到都不能讓他出來，這太可惡了！你剝奪他的生命權，在國際上有討論，但是因為這種人太可惡了，我就不讓他出來。鄭部長，你剛剛有提到行政院也在討論，最後哪一些是聲請假釋但不適用假釋的規定，在你的報告裡頭也提到包括故意殺人或殺人未遂者。可不可以跟大家講一下，現在行政院草案裡大概有哪些類型，就是行政院、法務部或會同司法院，大家討論完大概哪一些不得適用假釋的相關規定，可不可以跟大家講一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有統計，大概最主要是限縮在故意殺人跟殺人未遂者，被判死刑、無期徒刑、10年以上有期徒刑這些罪不適用假釋的規定。"],["王委員義川：就只有這些？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這是比較主要的。另外，已經判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了，被撤銷再被判無期徒刑，這個也不能假釋。"],["王委員義川：這是你們的看法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，跟委員報告，因為這些是屬於特殊重大暴力型犯罪，如果說一般販毒的話，我們認為這部分用這樣的話就太……"],["王委員義川：我知道，但是對臺灣社會來說，我覺得這個人實在有夠可惡，譬如虐童，這個人可惡，也許他也沒有虐童致死，可是大家看到虐童影片，就說：哇！怎麼這麼可惡，對小朋友的身心終身都可能造成很大的影響，這種人不能給他判死刑，最好給他關到死，社會就是會有這樣的講法啦！所以在法務部認定上哪一種不適用假釋，要把他關起來，這種事情不用討論嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為茲事體大，當然如果再開公聽會，給學者專家做一個更周延的討論，我想會讓修法更精準。剛剛委員有提到像虐童的部分，我們本來就認為有包括在這裡面，因為的確是人神共憤，一定是人神共憤、天理難容的這種罪，我們才不適用假釋的規定。"],["王委員義川：對啊！現在就是人神共憤，就像現在大家看電視說：哇！這麼可惡，結果過幾年之後判下來，大家又說被判無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋，這樣有天理嗎？大家會有這種討論啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員義川：所以我是建議，這個修法過程剛剛很多委員也說，經過你們答應到現在也快一年了啦！這個過程中我相信你們進行了很多的討論，但是社會也沒看到你們在討論，社會也沒參加討論，你既然說人神共憤，總是社會有期待、社會有想法，可是在整體刑法包括量刑的考量上，總是不能過頭，也不能輕的硬要判重的，重的相對就變成不重了，這樣的一個概念啦！所以這件事情我是建議，包括我們的召委，這案請法官的團體、檢察官的團體、矯正署，還有一些學者、被害人的家屬，大家再來討論一下，看到底哪一些應該列入剛剛吳宗憲委員說的一級、二級、三級。","我為什麼特別提吳委員的這一級、二級、三級？法官有那麼大的權力，這會有風險，什麼風險呢？社會認為這個人被判無期徒刑，可是他也沒有這麼可惡，結果法官說，我認為他很可惡，我就給他判一級；有的社會認為很可惡，應該判他無期徒刑，結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級，這樣法官壓力很大，因為這種一、二、三級，尤其一開始還沒有什麼其他的判例，一、二、三級剛開始的時候法官應該頭也很痛。副秘書長有什麼要補充？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，就這個部分，司法院比較建議無期徒刑在事後執行的時候建立一個審查制，就是說他能不能假釋……"],["王委員義川：現在審查制就是說……"],["王副秘書長梅英：不是在宣判那時候，因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測……"],["王委員義川：沒有，剛才就有委員說，現在事後要聲請假釋都是人在處理，可能有一些弊端，所以如果司法院認為先把他判無期徒刑，後面像吳宗憲委員說的一級、二級、三級這樣分級下來，還有一個制度要決定這件事情，那社會就要討論這個制度參與的機制是什麼？參與的人是什麼？這個也可以討論，可是這就是司法院把事情又推給委員會。所以我覺得這個案子大家討論，這一些事情我是建議召委再開一次會，等社會有共識，不然法務部只說故意殺人、殺人未遂這幾種，可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的、很可惡的，如果要放到吳宗憲召委的一、二、三級裡面，若要分也可以，大家把這個配置一下、大家來討論，或者是不要配置，最後要由法官自己來決定，法官的團體，法官應該有什麼協會，你們會表達你們承擔不起或是怎麼樣。我覺得大家要有共識，否則包括法務部將近一年，這樣算起來差不多一年的討論，社會不知道到最後走到哪裡，到最後立法院立法完了之後，大家可能會說現在改成這樣？我覺得這樣也不好。我就質詢到這裡，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。這個部分，我們再來思考一下，謝謝。副秘剛剛講到可不可以假釋很難預測，那一樣啊，你們的個案法官用有沒有教化可能性、能不能判死刑也都是在預測啦！","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}},{"id":"163652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163652","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a65026e5bf53fde6fcdd18dc12f595704a3d489d0440bf86c386d9cc7248204e3c0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:05:19 - 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跟委員回報第一點就是我們在任性的部分我們希望在建設 請業者建設更多高抗災的基地台所謂高抗災就是說它的中繼回傳到核心網絡部分"},{"start":127.438,"end":154.244,"text":"可以走微波也可以走衛星這一塊我們跟數位部有密切合作今年度會再三架各撥給他們各三台衛星OneWeb的衛星中繼的行動車這是第二部分高抗災記憶體部分高抗災記憶體有些它的中繼也是走微波也是走衛星所以這一塊我們也是同時來雙管齊下另外剛剛委員講的就非常專業就是說"},{"start":155.484,"end":184.163,"text":"正常情況下的走回合網的中繼是走光纖在都會區其實三大業者幾乎都已經地下化沒問題可是在郊區或比較偏遠的地區地下化有它的實質的一些挑戰比方說它可能會有一些道路會崩塌等等之類的即便是老牌子的中華電信它那邊也是自己立電信桿在那邊弄所以這一塊我們會逐步來討論"},{"start":185.484,"end":205.4,"text":"因為光纜地下化這個其實在十幾年前在我們政府有個M台灣計畫有推行過但是當時效果大概還沒有完全達到我們目前的期待那我們未來會跟相關部會來通力來合作那另外也跟"},{"start":206.761,"end":220.078,"text":"委員報告電力纜跟電信纜在一個管溝裡頭必須要有一定程度的一些間隔因為它那個功率強度不一樣這個在施作上到時候我也會跟相關機關一起來討論"},{"start":221.8,"end":239.525,"text":"好 謝謝陳代理主委那麼詳細的說明好 接下來請經濟部和次長跟水利署署長我想替我們永康的鄉親請命一下這次728的西南氣流帶來兩波的強降雨我們在8月2號永康下了非常大的攀坡大雨最大的時雨量來到103.5米這是"},{"start":242.586,"end":270.726,"text":"突破了我們策戰的歷史紀錄喔好 那這一次的排水系統的排洪不及永康市區就當然出現積煙水的問題那 好 那怎麼樣 怎麼樣處理喔當然啦 我來探究就是說我們那裡有永康排水跟吳奇潭中排那永康大排的上游段還有很多的渠段沒有整治所以如果遇到喔 這個短煙石牆降雨的時候就很容易喔 這個水位上升所以 是不是可能"},{"start":271.346,"end":293.704,"text":"就是說在現有的渠寬約21公尺拓寬到26公尺的治理線那不過當然永康排水的這個改善段它緊鄰中油公司中油公司的那個中心的南側那如果渠道變寬可能還涉及到中油的土地那也遭到第三屋的拆除"},{"start":294.645,"end":308.781,"text":"那我想這個我們其實地方上市政府都已經跟中油跟相關水利署開過好幾次會議我們辦公室在跟市政府在8月1號也有去會堪那認為拓寬真的有其必要性那"},{"start":309.582,"end":334.315,"text":"可是這一次我能理解因為政府的財源有限所以我們這一次的特別預算是針對受災受損的硬體去修復所以排水改善沒有辦法納入這一次可是我想說永康排水確實是我們永康很重要的治水系統所以是不是想請教說拜託說中央在協助復原之餘是不是可以審酌台南市政府提出的排水系統改善計畫"},{"start":336.476,"end":344.481,"text":"看用什麼其他的經費來支持啦因為畢竟前瞻的治水作為會更勝於這個災損後的這個補救啦那所以是不是請這個部長次長好跟委員報告齁那其實這已經"},{"start":353.707,"end":353.727,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時5分）謝謝主席，有請NCC陳代理主委、經濟部何次長、水利署林署長、文化部李部長。"],["主席：好，文化部、水利署、NCC。"],["林委員宜瑾：首先我先請教陳代理主委，這次南部的受災，一個很嚴重的問題就是停電又斷訊，今天我想跟你談的就是通訊韌性的問題，之所以斷訊，我想就是因為實體的電信設備嚴重受損嘛，雖然災後有儘速搶修，可是我想最根本的問題還是在於電信設備、基地臺跟基礎的結構等等太過於脆弱，如果相較起來，為什麼乍看之下，都會區的通訊網路比較不受影響，同樣是位於臺南，那就是所謂的電纜有沒有地下化？光纖電纜有沒有地下化？這是一個很關鍵的因素嘛。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：卓榮泰院長已經有指示經濟部跟台電公司要做全國電力電纜地下化的先期規劃跟評估，NCC也有請電信業者來規劃光纖電纜的地下化，或增加桿線、鐵塔的抗風指數等等，我想這些規劃對於未來的抗災都至關重要，畢竟如果沒有對外的通訊，外界要怎麼進駐救災，都很難在第一時間得到正確的消息，所以我想請教陳代理主委的是，這一次風災通訊韌性不足的地方，長期目標當然就是全面的進行所謂的電纜地下化，可是目前你規劃的進程如何，短期內有什麼樣的方案去克服這樣的問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，第一點，在韌性的部分，我們希望請業者建設更多高抗災的基地臺，所謂高抗災就是說，它的中繼回傳到核心網路部分可以走微波，也可以走衛星，關於這一塊，我們跟數位部有密切合作，今年度會對這三家各撥給他們3臺衛星，OneWeb的衛星中繼行動車，這是第一個部分。高抗災基地臺的部分，有些中繼也是走微波，或是走衛星，所以這一塊我們也是同時來雙管齊。另外剛剛委員講的非常專業，就是在正常情況下走回核網的中繼是走光纖，至於在都會區，其實三大業者幾乎都已經地下化，沒問題。"],["林委員宜瑾：沒錯，都地下化了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：可是在郊區或比較偏遠的地區，地下化有它實質的一些挑戰，比方說，有一些道路可能會崩塌等等之類的，即便是老牌子的中華電信，也是自己立電信桿在那邊弄，所以這一塊我們會逐步來討論。另外，光纜地下化的部分，其實我們政府在十幾年前有一個M臺灣計畫有推行過，但是當時的效果大概還沒有完全達到我們目前的期待，未來我們會跟相關部會通力來合作。另外，也跟委員報告，電力纜跟電信纜在同一個管溝裡頭，必須要有一定程度的間隔，因為他們的功率強度並不一樣，這個在施作上，到時候我們也會跟相關機關一起來討論。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝陳代理主委這麼詳細的說明。","接下來，我要請教經濟部何次長跟水利署林署長，我想替我們永康的鄉親請命一下。這次七二八的西南氣流帶來兩波的強降雨，在8月2號，永康下了非常大的滂沱大雨，最大的時雨量來到103.5米，這是突破了我們測站的歷史紀錄喔。這一次的排水系統因排洪不及，永康市區當然就有出現積淹水的問題，這部分怎麼樣來處理，當然依我來看，因為我們那裡有永康排水跟蜈蜞潭中排，永康大排的上游段還有很多的區段沒有完成整治，所以如果遇到這種短延時強降雨的時候，就很容易造成水位上升，所以是不是有可能將現有的渠寬約21公尺，拓寬到26公尺的治理線？當然永康排水的改善段，因為緊鄰中油公司臺南供油中心的南側，如果渠道要變寬，可能還涉及到中油的土地，也牽涉到地上物的拆除，我想這個問題其實地方上市政府都已經跟中油及水利署等相關單位開過好幾次會議，我們辦公室跟市政府在8月5號也有去會勘，認為拓寬真的有其必要性，可是這一次我能理解，因為政府的財源有限，所以這一次的特別預算是針對受災、受損的硬體去做修復，所以排水改善沒有辦法納入這一次，可是我想永康排水確實是我們永康很重要的治水系統，所以是不是可以拜託中央在協助復原之餘，是不是可以審酌臺南市政府提出的排水系統改善計畫？看用什麼其他的經費來支持啦，畢竟前瞻的治水作為會更勝於災損後的補救啦，所以是不是請次長回應一下？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，行政院已經有通過下一期的治水預算4年1,000億，是針對一些縣市排水系統的部分，我們要來做整治，我想這個案子，我們跟臺南縣市政府也已經有做了一些初步的討論，我想我們可以把它納入到下一期的治水預算裡面。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝宜瑾委員。","接著請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","吳琪銘","許宇甄","黃建賓","陳昭姿"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1147601_00002"}}},{"id":"163651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163651","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a650d61bb0ff7dd0391418dc12f595704a3d489d0440bf86c386c0e5c612942c44225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:58:57 - 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風也是 而且是過去在江南平原一帶沒有遇到這種颱風所造成的所以這樣劇烈的 極端的氣候產生的災害我想未來只會越來越多 可能成為新常態所以我們過去不是沒有努力"},{"start":55.131,"end":78.189,"text":"民進黨政府其實長期投入了預算在治水全國已經超過2800億可是我想新的災害還是會來所以我今天問兩位主委的其實問主委以及部長的其實都是關於災後重建的部分陳主委我就只問你一題就好了以我們新北京山為例雖然沒有像南部那麼嚴重但是在上一次山陀而颱風我們就發現這樣問題"},{"start":80.231,"end":102.684,"text":"我金山的農民我的田被大水大雨沖壞了我們的田是被沖毀的然後上面電線桿損毀倒在我的田上面然後旁邊的道路又攤方好 現在這種情況我要先向哪個單位通報我要跟哪個單位來求救我是一個農民我找誰"},{"start":104.832,"end":127.939,"text":"像這種颱風每個縣市都有應該成立災害應變中心所以應該立刻跟新北市政府相關單位來申請所以其實層層到最後應該就是地方政府甚至是在地的單位其實也就是區公所"},{"start":129.139,"end":155.706,"text":"坦白講就是跟區公所嘛 農民一定是跟在地的公所最有連結嘛 對不對所以這一個這樣的機制跨部會協調是政府的工作不管是中央政府或地方政府或跨部會其實都是各部會政府的工作嘛 這個完全同意嘛所以我對您這邊的期待要求就是未來大家的這個SOP可以建立得更好跨部會的協調更好啦 那"},{"start":156.306,"end":182.151,"text":"主委可能就到這邊謝謝因為剩下的我要問陳部長主委就請先回去先回座休息謝謝好 部長那我就接下去跟你問剛剛金山的那一塊田我們金山的這塊田接下來就進入到了農損農損就是災後重建要怎麼得到第一步的支援的部分好 我去問了公所了那部長現在這個損害怎麼認定您認為要怎麼處理"},{"start":185.723,"end":203.764,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說有關於是不是救助這個作物第一個一定會先公告公告完了以後他就可以到公所去申請申請的部分會有一個公所的縣刊會來處理縣刊誰做縣刊是公所的人員來做公所會做嗎"},{"start":205.031,"end":230.431,"text":"公所我們在每一種作物的現刊之前都會開講習會讓公所了解主委我就是等您這句話啦時間的關係我就直接說我的需求我們其實災害地方不是常常都有像過去沒有人想過金山會淹水金山在山上沒有人想過金山會淹水所以你已經讓區公所的人來做第一線協助他們都很辛苦了"},{"start":230.811,"end":251.621,"text":"可是你叫公所的人馬上就會認定農損他們會怕他不知道要怎麼認定接下來發出去的都是國家的錢公務員也會擔心嘛所以如果您認同未來全國各地都有可能因為極端氣候發生災害的話那麼我認為重建量能當中的這種像災損的認定人員的訓練也應該成為新常態的一環主委認同嗎"},{"start":256.923,"end":263.048,"text":"我非常認同特別是在中南部很多公所的人員因為異動的關係所以變成是一個新手很辛苦但是我們就給他配備包括知識量能的配備我們一定會做能難訓練因為真的時間大家都很趕所以這一條是這樣實際跟您說"},{"start":274.358,"end":292.617,"text":"第二個您說剛剛關於這個紓困貸款的部分那我也認同應該要有紓困可是主委我從過去在跟您請教的有一條就是我們有一個這個青壯年農民從農貸款要點我相信部長您一定很清楚嘛陳部長"},{"start":293.678,"end":313.152,"text":"可是部長直接跟你討論我的爭點我們的第三條第四款當中有說我們去貸款這個青壯年農民從農貸款的人他在全年的非農業的收入的部分不能超過基本工資的1.25倍這是多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":314.213,"end":328.168,"text":"四十三萬全年不得超過四十三萬可是以我剛剛東北的東北岸的這個農民來說我十二月這整個冬季我都沒有辦法從農他大概就四個月所以如果我要去繳一個貸款通常這"},{"start":330.33,"end":339.515,"text":"農作會停要休耕貸款不會停啊所以我還是必須要打工來還這一筆這個費用就差不多就是這個事實了那現在再加上天災的部分就更多如果我因為這樣損害剝奪了我的身份貸款身份我覺得這樣是不妥的啦這個平常就會發生那我認為災後更會啦所以特別提醒這一點我們希望可以再討論放寬"},{"start":354.244,"end":354.344,"text":"好 謝謝部長 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保外就醫那另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛那這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做動作所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好"},{"start":133.826,"end":157.481,"text":"所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理啊但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來嘛你跟我說一下有沒有有沒有任何進度了有沒有在研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到啊他那個在八月八月五號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了嘛但是已經在開新型做法制作業的一則啟動啦"},{"start":159.682,"end":186.968,"text":"那你們還要多久可以完成啊就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已啊他其實只是辦法他不是法律啊那可不可以速度再快一點好不好那尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些"},{"start":187.788,"end":217.035,"text":"看起來人畜無害的人 結果你要嚴格的監控結果呢 這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人 你卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪 這對不起國人啦好 那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我好 那我再問下一個問題喔部長 你去年喔 9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到"},{"start":218.193,"end":232.325,"text":"這個修法沒有修那個77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的113年憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決"},{"start":233.346,"end":261.053,"text":"那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定"},{"start":262.173,"end":288.411,"text":"我覺得就算了 我不敢再期待行政院了啦那如果在那邊又推給行政院喔那就算了我跟你講 包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述 憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述 完全胡說八道騙國人啦你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話 我有在問你嗎部長 我有在問你嗎部長 你一定要搶答嗎 麻煩時間停止"},{"start":292.393,"end":316.801,"text":"部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了耶我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣"},{"start":318.831,"end":347.282,"text":"我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業的有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎"},{"start":348.755,"end":377.2,"text":"哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子"},{"start":380.236,"end":393.351,"text":"我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦"},{"start":394.591,"end":420.152,"text":"我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣欸為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛"},{"start":420.592,"end":434.427,"text":"那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論然後呢 已經送到行政區審理那8月10號也是第五次的一個審查那我想差不多應該是到尾聲連叫審訊了嘛那再來在會議室法院那我想應該快 現在可能下個會請都送到我們這裡趕進度了嘛我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾啦"},{"start":443.104,"end":449.584,"text":"結果我們永遠等不到 譬如說我想一個啦 洁癖者保護法不法關說 棄保潛逃"},{"start":451.254,"end":473.868,"text":"然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家 疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講"},{"start":478.03,"end":500.872,"text":"我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面 我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務 大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面 給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講 講死大家好好的來就法律過去或"},{"start":501.893,"end":529.105,"text":"過去政府有一些不對地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個"},{"start":530.629,"end":536.233,"text":"保安就医期间的一些监督因为上一次你跟矫正组组长两个有提到就是说"},{"start":538.908,"end":559.345,"text":"你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官"},{"start":560.846,"end":582.293,"text":"所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好 這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是"},{"start":584.898,"end":609.739,"text":"教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在"},{"start":610.64,"end":620.511,"text":"你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密 请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准"},{"start":622.103,"end":649.542,"text":"首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構"},{"start":650.623,"end":674.838,"text":"那如果這部分我們是不是可以請我們的刑事廳長來進一步說明還是用書面你這個部分書面給我好了因為我還是認為教化可能性這句話目前還沒有辦法找到一個很詳細的標準另外就是說因為我們現在對於判決死刑的部分你現在是被告行為時也要有識別的能力"},{"start":675.658,"end":692.703,"text":"受救審時也要 執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的"},{"start":693.303,"end":715.599,"text":"不管他在外面多壞 他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖 而且非常孝順嘛所以人家說全台灣孝順的人 密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說 都說你不能關我 我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說 法庭變成是大家演戲 爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好 我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性啦 傅敏"},{"start":716.704,"end":740.57,"text":"那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌"},{"start":742.236,"end":751.937,"text":"好吧 那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得"},{"start":753.336,"end":773.256,"text":"已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了"},{"start":775.054,"end":800.012,"text":"所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的 像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺啦 其實我看完那個判決 我有一個感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員 第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲是演到很厲害的所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個"},{"start":801.454,"end":810.887,"text":"我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年"},{"start":819.129,"end":837.561,"text":"關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面"},{"start":839.942,"end":855.628,"text":"讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是 就是還有在什麼時候適用因為他的法律效果竟然不一樣就是他應該更明確性OK好 那我懂就是說至少覆密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎"},{"start":858.155,"end":872.235,"text":"這個我們尊重委員的一個體驗那我想這個要做一個配套因為我在那個報告中有講嘛因為這還要對應那個分責的問題那這邊最後我就跟複密這邊說明一下就我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的"},{"start":872.876,"end":890.792,"text":"那至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級那至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇"},{"start":892.013,"end":915.546,"text":"總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想要這部分就很謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好 那個"},{"start":916.627,"end":925.439,"text":"部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下"},{"start":926.618,"end":950.528,"text":"一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在"},{"start":951.388,"end":978.749,"text":"我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了"},{"start":979.867,"end":998.458,"text":"事先或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行好 那沒關係 部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下啦但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好 謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時46分）我們請部長還有副秘書長。"],["主席：請部長、副秘書長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我先請教部長，我們上一次有提到有一位性侵的受刑人保外就醫，然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性。結果後來我們發現，我們國家現在非常有趣的就是，就審的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐，譬如說蔡正元，譬如說黃呂錦茹，都被要求戴電子腳鐐，結果性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管，讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人。有關這個部分，當時我有提到，第一個是性侵受刑人保外就醫時的管理，以及第二個是保外就醫辦法第十二條的規定，如果他病況已治癒或是明顯改善的時候，監獄應指定七天以上的期日，要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行。我當時覺得為什麼要有七天，難道我們一個小小多山的國家需要七天這麼長的時間來通知他報到或返監執行嗎？我覺得這個不合理。請問一下部長，在這段時間你們就這兩個部分有研議了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上我們有請矯正署要嚴厲檢討，對於訪視的密度我們會加強，另外也會修法，譬如說返家探視的辦法。另外，剛才有提……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！我現在跟你談的是保外就醫啦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，保外就醫。保外就醫這部分是不是要有電子監控？因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛，這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個……"],["吳委員宗憲：有沒有開始動作了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在就開始要做，這個是不是我請……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們現在是怎樣？有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我請矯正署署長來報告整個的進度問題，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你自己不知道，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有在處理啊，但是詳細的細節，我請矯正署來說明，今天矯正署署長有來嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你跟我說一下有沒有任何進度、有沒有在研議了或是什麼，我都沒有看到啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：在8月5號已經有會同相關單位來召會討論了，這已經開始在進行法制作業的啟動了！"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們還要多久可以完成？就這個部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是9月4號……"],["吳委員宗憲：裡面很多東西是只要法務部內部自己更改規定而已啊！只是辦法，並不是法律啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，這個我尊重矯正署，要矯正署他們去研議。"],["吳委員宗憲：可不可以速度再快一點？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會儘快，好不好？9月4號……"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其是我說保外就醫……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為現在已經8月27號……"],["吳委員宗憲：譬如傷害罪受刑人的保外就醫、性侵罪受刑人保外就醫，這個沒有監控，我覺得全國人民不能接受！現在對於一些看起來人畜無害的人，結果你是嚴格的監控，但是對於這些當初犯了嚴重犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人，你卻毫無監控，讓他在外面繼續犯罪，這對不起國人啦！這個部分，請你們趕快處理，然後資料要趕快提供給我。","我再問下一個問題，部長，你去年9月就已經說了要提不得假釋的修法，為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個修法，我們有修第七十七條跟第七十八條之一等條文啦，也要符合、配合113年憲判字第8號跟第2號的憲法判決，這部分我們已經送行政院在審議了，目前審查會已經開了四次，最後一次是8月15號有開第五次的審查會。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟部長說明啦，昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張啓楷委員的那個論述，我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業，但對法律的理解，我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況，還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定，我覺得就算了，我不敢再期待行政院了啦，如果你在這邊又推給行政院的話，那就算了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：再來，這個因為……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，包括站在旁邊的副秘，你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張啓楷委員的，法律上面的論述、憲法上面的論述、暫時處分的論述，完全胡說八道騙國人啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不要講說胡說八道，委員，他……"],["吳委員宗憲：你講什麼話！我有在問你嗎？部長，我有在問你嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就針對這個審查……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你一定要搶答嗎？","麻煩時間停止。","部長！部長！我有在問你話嗎？部長，你現在是怎樣？"],["主席：部長，請等委員質詢，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你現在是為了求你的官位不要被換掉，就開始在那邊幫院長洗地，是不是？你是不是要這樣？你要不要我講得更難聽？我已經不想要講很難聽了耶，我希望你在檢察官面前還有一定的顏面，所以我對你的質詢，一路以來我都予以尊重，但如果你一定要這樣，我現在在講，我跟副秘在講，昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況！胡說八道在騙國人，他自己法律系畢業的，有夠……我不想講不好聽的話，真的不應該！還幹到院長了，在那邊說謊騙國人。","法律規定是那樣嗎？暫時處分是那樣嗎？我愛做不做、我高興就好嗎？暫時處分我聲請了以後，我就可以不做嗎？哪一個法律、哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度？什麼時候聲請之後可以暫時停止執行的，我國有這樣的制度嗎？我講這樣哪裡錯？你為了保你的官位、你為了要讓院長留下你，你就在他面前講這個。不過我覺得大家想太多了，你的主子根本不是他啦！你不要以為我們不知道。算了，部長，在這裡我不想講了，我跟你講，你剛剛如果不要這樣子，我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來，你不應該這樣子！我們都實務界出來的，誰跟誰熟我會不知道嗎？部長，你以為我不知道嗎？你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎？誰跟誰熟，我們實務界的都一清二楚啦！","我覺得今天制度就好好走，好不好？我們今天在那邊任何的修法、任何的制度怎麼走，司法是百年大計，跟教育一樣耶！為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面，或毀在一、兩任部長上面？我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情，我對於司法的要求就是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我再跟委員報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：對於任何人都一樣，今天任何一個人犯罪就去偵辦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們去年就提出了這個修正草案，修正草案我們也是經過多方討論，已經送到行政院去審議，8月15號……是第五次審查，我想……"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！我懂……"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該是到尾聲，已經要審竣了嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：就是法務部已經把草案送到行政院……"],["鄭部長銘謙：再來，再會銜司法院，我想應該很快……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我知道、我知道了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：希望等下個會期就送到，我們在趕進度了嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：我了解了，你不用再講了。我們進入立法院這段時間，法務部給我們很多承諾，結果我們永遠等不到，譬如我講揭弊者保護法、不法關說、棄保潛逃，到這一次的刑法修正等等，我覺得包括人工智慧基本法等等的一堆案子，反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家、疼惜這個國家，我們發現執政黨不做事、發現司改會議一開完之後，等於是廢話，只挑對自己有利的司改決議來做，對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到，然後今天請你來這裡，你還在那邊繼續就是大家來辯論、來辯論就來辯論。部長，我跟你講，我不是提公事包出來的檢察官，我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官，在司法實務上面我不會輸你啦！我不是提皮包出身的、我不是巴結長官出身的！如果你今天要來談司法實務，大家來談啦！只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面、給部長留一些顏面，很多東西不要講死，大家好好地就法律……過去政府有一些不對的地方也來不及了，我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的，我的想法只是這樣。所以我質詢到現在，我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵、惡言相向，我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好，我不要去想其他的。","所以我還是希望，部長，你們還是要重視一下我們提出來的一些建議，包括我剛剛講的保外就醫期間的一些監督。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為上一次你跟矯正署署長兩個有提到，我上次有問到你們保外就醫的那個監督機關是誰？你們跟我說是矯正署。事實上，你看一下條文的第三條，其實應該是檢察官，你再回去看一下。因為「受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者」，那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的，這個是否應該是檢察官？所以大家在條文的部分，麻煩你們再參考一下。","但我的意思還是這樣，因為性侵、傷害或殺人的這些人，如果他們保外就醫卻沒有人監控，我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情，好不好？這個再麻煩部長你們注意。","副秘這邊我請教一下，我覺得今天還是有一個問題，就是教化可能性的問題，因為現在法院很喜歡用「教化可能性」，動不動就說這個人不能判死，因為他有教化可能性。但是這個「教化可能性」沒有一個標準嘛！到目前為止還是看不到一個標準，很多時候你把他推給醫生或是什麼心理師評斷，結果現在發生了一個狀況，只要在審理期間你是比較會表演的人，那就沒事情了，那就永遠不可能判死。副秘，請問一下「教化可能性」有沒有一定的標準？"],["王副秘書長梅英：首先報告委員，這裡通常大家所說的教化可能性，它其實是在刑法第五十七條有關於量刑因子中，是就他相關的一些背景跟犯後態度整個做一個綜合評價。目前司法院也希望把這些量刑，不管是在程序上，或者是實質的標準，就是儘量建置結構。這部分我們是不是可以請刑事廳廳長進一步說明，還是用書面？"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分你提供書面給我好了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我還是認為「教化可能性」這句話，目前還沒有辦法找到很詳細的一個標準。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，因為我們對於判決死刑的部分，現在是被告行為時要有識別能力，就審時也要、執行時也要，其實這些條件加一加，我覺得目前確實我國的死刑在判決跟執行上面，已經變成幾乎是不可能的一件事情。我們都走過實務，其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的啦！不管他在外面多壞，他來開庭的時候，永遠都表現出一副非常乖，而且非常孝順的樣子嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以人家說，全臺灣孝順的人密度最高的地方其實是在法院，因為每個人來都說你不能關我，我要回家孝順父母。所以會不會法庭變成大家爭相演戲的地方？我只要演得好，我就不會被判死刑，是不是會有這個可能性？副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，剛才委員提到的，考量他的精神狀況，必須是在一個行為時點，還有一個是判決的時候，此外有一個是執行的時候，事實上它都有客觀的標準，跟所謂的法庭演戲，我想這個可能就是，它是可以去檢驗的，法官也會進一步審酌。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！那沒關係，這樣子，因為最近有很多實務案例、法官的判決，他判決的內容當然我們是尊重，但有一些我覺得已經到幾乎是不合理的程度了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：譬如馬國女大生被殺的那個案子，其實判決裡面有提到，他認為被告犯下本案之後，對於社會規範、行為常模等相關概念都已經加以思考，並且已經歸納、內化了，所以他可能會有教化的可能性等等的，像這一類的論述變成是……我個人的感覺，其實看完那個判決我有一個感覺，我覺得這個社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑、絕對不會被判，第一個是演員，第二個是政客。因為這兩種人每天都在演戲，所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑，他演戲是演到很厲害的，所以永遠都有教化可能性，我個人是覺得有這個狀況。","剛剛我在做提案說明的時候有提到，無期徒刑的假釋，從102到111年平均只要17.9年的時間就可以假釋，關17.9年就可以出來了，這真的很低。我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據，其實是不太能接受的。","最後，副秘，我看過你們的報告，對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同嘛！只是你們覺得，是不是應該反映在分則各個條文裡面，讓法官能夠有所依循？我想你們的主軸是這樣，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，還有在什麼時候適用，因為它的法律效果既然不一樣，它應該更明確地……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我懂，至少副秘是認同無期徒刑分級。","部長，請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們尊重委員的提案，我想這要做一個配套，我在報告中有講，因為這還有要對應分則的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。最後我跟副秘說明一下，我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的。至於要不要放在個別個案、各個犯罪罪名下面去做，我個人的見解是不用，應該讓法官有一個裁量權，所以是設在總則裡面，總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級，至於分則或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名，他要選擇總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個，我覺得這個是交由法官，尊重他個案審理的裁量權。所以我才會認為，沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下。這是我個人對於這個提案心中的想法，這部分我知道跟司法院不一樣，但是我想這部分就很謝謝司法院給我們的建議，謝謝法務給我們的建議。","部長，我跟你講，我剛剛講到院長那部分，你也不用再多做說明了，如果部長覺得我講的話有問題，部長也可以去了解一下一個法律三讀通過後，其實它在被宣告違憲之前就是一個有效的法律，人民都要遵守，各機關也要遵守。第二個，即便你聲請釋憲、即便你聲請暫時處分，但是在法官還沒有下裁定、判決之前，其實它就是一個有效的法律，全國人民都必須遵守，絕對不存在我去聲請釋憲或聲請暫時處分，就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行。總統及院長的這句話，其實會被法律學者笑的、會被法官笑的。我再跟各位報告，院長跟總統這句話的論述是不對的，更何況所謂的編列預算就叫做執行，法律通過的東西就像編列預算的這個動作，就叫做執行。所以你去聲請釋憲或暫時處分，不能夠暫停執行。好，沒關係，部長，你有興趣就再回去研究一下啦！但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋，尤其是位居總統及院長這麼高位階的人，更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請王義川委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 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內政部好 部長"},{"start":16.727,"end":31.596,"text":"市長昨天這個卓院長在立法院被尋的時候針對我們114年的總預算先前在他論述的時候把凍結說成是誤說為刪除對這件事他表示道歉"},{"start":32.637,"end":46.187,"text":"媒體報導稱之為大罷免失利後身段變軟了所以我不禁在此要感慨如果沒有726沒有823的大罷免大失敗32比0的頑封的話"},{"start":48.608,"end":65.409,"text":"執政黨是否就不會承認說錯話就不會意識到過去正事不做不務正業應該趕快回歸到崗位上上井發條為風災為雨災所造成的重大傷害的復原來做正事"},{"start":66.63,"end":90.393,"text":"我們也看到總統面對災區的居民的需求總統前往視察竟然告訴災民家園的清理要由你們社區自行來處理房屋屋頂的修繕 蓋房布你們自己要去爬上去人民要求趕快修復通訊總統卻說我們郭國文委員的電話會通"},{"start":92.175,"end":96.971,"text":"所以這樣的一個談話我們感覺根本不知苦民所苦我想請問部長你當時在場嗎"},{"start":99.729,"end":126.025,"text":"總統去視察的時候你在場嗎抱歉我沒有過去你沒有過去嗎 蘇委部長所以我們現在就很納悶為什麼整個部會在整個總統去視察的時候包括內政部這麼重要的部會你會不在場呢報告委員因為丹納斯颱風還有0728還有0802這三個連續由內政部跟經濟部主導的行政院的災防中心我們都在處理有關救災的部分"},{"start":126.485,"end":153.362,"text":"那在第一时间的复原跟重建我们也是依照行政院的指导就是所有的SOP都在走所以总统过去视察的时候他有要求其他的部会没有要求你他就找我们消防署的同仁跟着去OK 好 这样我了解但是我想这一次的所造成的严重灾情我们充分显露政府灾害这个善后的韧性严重不足"},{"start":154.523,"end":168.218,"text":"所以這樣子的一個情況之下內政部是否應該引以為戒其實部長你沒去我是覺得滿遺憾的你還是要去啦為總統去視察那個跟內政部的業務也有相關嗎報告委員那個後來院長過去還有我"},{"start":171.141,"end":197.999,"text":"自己也到每個地方不同因為我們所負責的項目各不相同每個部會都非常的認真跟委員報告一下部長我想其實因為大家事後檢討就認為內政部其實還有很多要去進步的地方我想請問部長對於這次救災調度效率差全責機制有不明的部分內政部有沒有痛定思痛研擬具體的一個改革改善的一個方案"},{"start":198.779,"end":220.046,"text":"報告委員我們在這次丹納斯颱風跟0728還有0802在這個行政院的這個災防中心裡面其實它原來的這樣子的跟地方政府一起來配合的SOP是沒有問題的但是呢我們呢有一個發現有一個非常大的一個需要改進的地方就是這一次因為風力非常的強"},{"start":220.686,"end":250.186,"text":"甚至高达17级风或者是雨量非常的大比莫拉克的时候还要多所以造成电线杆全部全倒的状况之下我们在救灾的速度上因为有通讯不良的问题确实有产生一些状况这些状况我在事后邀集我们的警政还有消防单位就通讯上面在救灾的体系上面怎么样做研拟我们有研拟若干的办法出来包括说我们未来"},{"start":250.786,"end":270.057,"text":"在這個災防中心如果要開辦之前所以有在研擬具體的一個改善就在這個改善機構有在做啦我只想了解你們事後有沒有在做有兩三次以上的會議在做改善謝謝有在做就好了那好部長你先請回請那個水利署署長OK"},{"start":277.088,"end":299.837,"text":"署長我們從95年到今年114年將近20年的期間我們中央對於整個治水的一個計畫的一個經費是否已經高達2700億對有2700億但是據本席所悉截至去年年底縣市河川與區域排水平均治理率僅有45.69%"},{"start":302.958,"end":315.038,"text":"一半數的縣市治理率未達五成花了那麼多錢請問你為何諮詢率那麼低報告委員從95年那時候治理率是19%"},{"start":316.701,"end":344.758,"text":"那到現在是45沒有錯那最主要是因為現在要投入很多土地的部分還有很多堤防那個費用都蠻貴的所以我們在有限資源裡面我們盡量投入人口的密集區域我想為什麼你不用跟我講很清楚我們看到的數據就是這樣所以這一次我們編列的特別預算包含水利署的這個設施搶修及復建經費有60億嘛"},{"start":346.719,"end":368.477,"text":"所以我希望你我看到過去的執行率那麼低你這次又編列了60億所以這60億你要好好的去執行執行率那麼低難怪說風災水災一來整個就經不起考驗所以你既然編了這個經費我希望你這一次一定要讓我們看到執行率是OK的你太低就沒有成效嘛"},{"start":369.358,"end":376.902,"text":"對不對 好吧是 我們全力來努力非常謝謝委員謝謝思敏接著請蘇巧慧委員質詢好 謝謝主席我想請公共工程委員會陳金德 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郭志輝說啊後面還有更大尾的要不要約談郭志輝"},{"start":194.248,"end":208.103,"text":"這個政績當然也就辦到哪裡 我完全尊重台北地檢署的偵查的一個計畫台北地檢署的偵查進度由誰決定的台北地檢署的偵查進度由誰決定的這由台北地檢署的偵查團隊在決定偵查團隊嘛 好是由陳辦檢察官還是由檢察長來決定的"},{"start":216.492,"end":232.127,"text":"這我不清楚 奇怪了所以嘛 你要看 具體個案上面到底要聽陳辦檢察官的還是聽檢察長的為什麼問你這個問題 這很重要啊這會涉及到什麼 上級有沒有指導下級嘛"},{"start":233.448,"end":258.291,"text":"這很重要啊 所以我才問你啊從法務部的立場 從規範的觀點應該要聽誰的 聽懲辦檢察官的 還是聽檢察長的這個偵查團體檢查議題嘛 本來就是一個偵查團隊嘛是 好 你是不是知道 這個案子去年就要動了這個案件本來就是在鎮長山 你是不是知道這個案子去年就要動了這個我不清楚 這你不清楚 那我現在跟你講"},{"start":259.878,"end":286.571,"text":"我在這邊直接公開檢舉啦讓你們回去查啦這個案子 去年就要動啦是誰叫懲辦檢察官不要動啦部長應該也不知道王俊麗叫懲辦檢察官不要動啊王俊麗叫懲辦檢察官不要動啊怎麼會搞到823以後才開始動這個案子整整押了一年欸 這個案子押一年你知不知道你也不知道嘛"},{"start":287.861,"end":300.018,"text":"在黑箱裡面的作業用檢查一體來遮掩一堆案子能壓就壓 能拖就拖 能混就混配合著政治在辦案"},{"start":301.468,"end":325.957,"text":"還有臉在這邊講尊重檢察官的偵辦沒有關係啊我在這邊講話我負責嘛承辦檢察官去年要動王俊麗說不要動拖到823以後才動拖到823以後才動就像郭志輝講的啦大圍跑掉了啦大圍跑掉了啦順便去了解一下拖了這麼久有沒有洩密的問題接下來"},{"start":328.499,"end":351.816,"text":"避免執政者以人事控制個案2017年施改國際會議決議的內容民進黨秘書長憑什麼喬司法人事啊民進黨秘書長可以喬司法人事嗎這個就是所謂的什麼司法獨立檢察官獨立嗎王俊麗現在北檢啊當紅檢察官啊"},{"start":353.343,"end":377.151,"text":"結果他當上調查局局長竟然是在他桃園地檢署任內他所偵辦貪污犯的犯罪嫌疑人鄭文燦去幫他喬的這個事情也太荒謬了吧這個事情也太荒謬了吧部長一直在這邊說尊重檢察官司法獨立檢察官獨立獨立在哪裡獨立在哪裡"},{"start":380.097,"end":396.889,"text":"一個犯罪嫌疑人王俊麗是檢察長負責偵辦這個案件最後還牽結結果王俊麗當上調查局局長是鄭文燦去喬的部長這個符合2017年思考國事會議決議的內容嗎"},{"start":402.166,"end":415.505,"text":"這個怎麼樣這個怎麼那個案完的這件 高檢是在偵查中了嘛所以要拖多久 反正以拖待變嘛在這邊受到社會質疑的時候 我們有在調查了啦"},{"start":416.887,"end":441.474,"text":"要調查到什麼時候 不知道要調查多久 不知道相關的案子啊 慶祝難輸啊慶祝難輸啊三年前這個國會 上一屆的國會在調查淨電勢必案的時候一模一樣的論調啦司法檢調在調查了啦調查什麼現在案子在北檢檢察官手上啊我公開在國會講過啊"},{"start":443.598,"end":468.758,"text":"人家調查員要動檢察官說不准動通通不准動這樣的司法偵辦有獨立性 有公信力看著顏色在辦案而已啦抓小放大啦能拖就拖 能混就混再來看這些被爆料出來的"},{"start":470.266,"end":497.034,"text":"臨時要很大他關說的司法人士一件一件全部符合客觀事實上一次廉政署的副署長在這邊的時候我就問他問他說請託關桌人士要不要進行廉政登錄他給我的回答是要要進行廉政登錄我後來去文法務部請教有做廉政登錄嗎你們有回文給我有做廉政登錄嗎"},{"start":498.956,"end":506.882,"text":"有嗎沒有登錄依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果所以依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果對不起喔第一個你已經確認沒登錄了嘛"},{"start":517.911,"end":532.467,"text":"第二個 我現在問你嘛沒有登錄應該產生什麼法律效果嗎這麼簡單的問題都不敢回答喔這個要尊重 這個還沒有調查問我怎麼去回答個案的問題呢奇怪了 公務人員廉政倫理規範是行政調查還是刑事調查"},{"start":534.102,"end":551.227,"text":"你當一個部長 連行政調查跟刑事調查都搞不清楚喔拜託喔 不要在這邊講空話 形成並行啦行政調查是一回事 司法調查是一回事你怎麼當一個法務部部長 連這麼基本的ABC都搞不清楚啊"},{"start":551.747,"end":581.076,"text":"那我就問你嘛有關於廉政倫理是行政調查還是刑事調查是行政調查還是刑事調查我已經跟委員答覆了就是這個沒有請託關稅的登錄嘛所以下一個問題嘛違反公務人員的廉政倫理規範是行政事項還是刑事事項是行政事項還是刑事事項不敢回答喔法學的ABC不敢回答喔"},{"start":582.503,"end":607.2,"text":"這就是行政事項啊行政事項你們法務部現在做什麼全部推給刑事調查哇 真好用欸真便利欸刑事調查現在變成了你們遇到廉政倫理規範行政該處理的車修部啦動都不用動喔可以這樣嗎可以這樣嗎可以這樣嗎"},{"start":615.402,"end":640.137,"text":"你現在在等到時間 看著表 看時間拖過去沒有是不是還笑得出來 看著表 哇 我時間終於混過去啦我在上面問問題 我就是不回答 看你要怎麼辦來 我們接下來繼續往下看思改國事會議 會議的結論 檢審會要不要加入外部委員"},{"start":641.599,"end":665.682,"text":"這個我反對 這個你反對喔所以你個人的意志超越了司改國事會議的決議嘛非常的有擔當啊現在我們賴清德任命的法務部部長一個人大聲的提呼說我反對檢察官人事委員會有外部委員難怪嘛 難怪司改國事會議"},{"start":666.903,"end":685.029,"text":"不僅僅是放天燈 大敗敗現在是民進黨政府任命的法務部部長直接宣布司改國事會議歸司改國事會議的找一堆學者專家來 大家來共同討論的結論我法務部部長鄭明謙 我就是反對 真厲害"},{"start":690.951,"end":696.956,"text":"那這樣子我要把撕改國事會議全部丟到垃圾桶去就好了嘛用個人的一個意志來凌駕撕改國事會議的決議來看一下齁對 好 來來來全中華民國通通都不懂只有你鄭明謙一個人懂"},{"start":713.929,"end":716.851,"text":"這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎來看一下 只有你一個人懂嗎司法改革國是會議第三組分組會議 增開會議決議"},{"start":730.389,"end":755.788,"text":"檢查人事制度的民主化為使檢查人事制度符合民主問責並回應多元價值法務部檢察官人事審議委員應比照司法院法官人事審議委員會規定加入外部委員來有請司法院副秘書長法官人事審議委員會有沒有外部委員有的"},{"start":756.784,"end":766.497,"text":"司改國事會議的決議對司法院而言現在算什麼 算垃圾是不是司改國事會議的決議對司法院而言到底還算不算個東西"},{"start":768.069,"end":779.858,"text":"到底還算不算個東西你站在你旁邊的法務部長很傲慢啦我部長反對啦私下國事會議開什麼 不好意思齁我沒有請教你不要搶人家的麥克風那個法務部你那個聽名權跟伙覺權還有沒有那個審議權"},{"start":786.803,"end":803.763,"text":"一樣一樣來啦你不能這樣講啦我只有問你一件事情嘛司法院的是不是有提名權跟審議權有沒有否決權嘛阿你今天在這邊在國會公然講我反對司法院國事會議的決議我現在在請教司法院副秘書長你有夠沒禮貌的"},{"start":804.324,"end":826.399,"text":"沒有我同意 沒有主席同意自己站在旁邊 麥克風就搶來講喔我現在在請教司法院的副秘書長寧願你現在當法務部部長在國會裡面愛幹嘛就幹嘛喔我有請你回答嗎我有請你回答嗎現在法務部部長是怎麼樣全國檢調在我手上誰敢對我怎麼樣"},{"start":832.313,"end":853.407,"text":"這麼囂張喔 你在國會殿堂就這麼囂張喔走出這個地方來請司法院副秘書長來施改國事會議的決議對於現在的司法院而言算什麼一個報告委員齁 就是司法院就我們所主管的這些那個法案還有政策呢我們還是會本於我們主管那個機關就是來審議的"},{"start":856.671,"end":876.239,"text":"對啊 你還是沒有回答我問題啊史凱國治會議的決議對司法院算什麼法務部部長表明的很清楚啦史凱國治會議的決議對我現任賴清德所任命的證明簽根本是空氣啊一點都不重要啦我證明簽說了算啦因為我現在當法務部部長"},{"start":879.242,"end":896.117,"text":"讓大家所有參與史改國式會議全國的學者專家所有的外部委員大家聽清楚以後民進黨要召開任何的國式會議不要再相信民進黨了找來有什麼用花了納稅人大筆的銀子"},{"start":898.231,"end":910.997,"text":"學者專家做了決議我就沒有要遵守嘛重點那個是一個民主化的問題現在是檢察官民主化的問題嘛那現在已經是完全檢察官票選的民主化的問題了什麼時候國會的規矩變這樣趙偉什麼時候司法法治委員會的規矩變這樣反正我們就依照立委的想要問誰現在沒有請他上來回答了可以自己上來搶麥克風喔"},{"start":925.822,"end":949.352,"text":"什麼時候受到法治委員會的規矩變這樣我有說錯嗎斯卡國是會議的決議我白紙黑紙都貼在這邊耶這不是我黃國昌一個人講的這是第三分組第一次增開會議的決議法官的是審議委員會法官喔人家都有外部委員"},{"start":951.368,"end":971.143,"text":"思改國際會議做這樣的決議司法院也遵守但我們現在的法務部很厲害太上皇機關我不遵守就是不遵守你個人反對沒有關係你個人反對你繼續反對修法到底會過不會過是立法院決定不是你鄭明謙一個人決定"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請法務部部長、司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位早。臺大法學院顏厥安教授針對民進黨所發動的大惡霸，他特別從憲政的觀點寫了一篇令人省思的文章。他說這一場憑空發動的無差別大罷免，就是一場耍法術、走歪路的曲徑解散國會，人民的選擇做出來了，顏厥安教授主張，這個時候不但卓院長應該要辭職下臺，整個內閣都應該打掉重練。來，請教部長贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是顏教授的意見……"],["黃委員國昌：你贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們尊重。"],["黃委員國昌：你個人贊不贊成？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不講個人意見。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你不講個人意見，來看一下，你有遞辭職信嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我不需要在這邊做……"],["黃委員國昌：你不需要在這邊說明，所以你的意思是什麼？部長有沒有遞辭職信、有沒有展現風骨，不需要跟國會說明嗎？現在官這麼大喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：內閣要不要改組……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在不是問內閣要不要改組，我是問你有沒有遞辭職信？你有沒有遞辭職信？你居功厥偉，你有沒有遞辭職信？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不曉得為什麼要遞辭職信。"],["黃委員國昌：你自己覺得嘛，你為什麼要遞辭職信？學者主張整個內閣都要打掉重練，你很有信心啊？你覺得你為什麼要遞辭職信？你說得沒有錯啊！你放心啦！你居功厥偉，不會要你辭職啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：學者要不要……尊重學者的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：一定留任你的啦，你這麼好用，怎麼會要你遞辭職信呢？對不對？這麼好用，怎麼會要你遞辭職信呢？功在黨國，對民進黨貢獻非常的大，怎麼會要你遞辭職信？放心啦，你的官位非常的穩，跟著黨走，依照黨的意志，司法怎麼搞爛都沒有關係！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不要學對岸的這些語調啦！"],["黃委員國昌：接下來……我用什麼語調跟你質詢不是你在這邊可以說三道四的，什麼叫做我不要學、用什麼語調？你什麼態度啊？你什麼態度啊？今天是你在備詢還是我在備詢啊？在國會這麼囂張喔？這麼囂張喔？這個內閣有在反省嗎？有在檢討嗎？部長在這裡講話這麼囂張喔？","來，爆發了大綠能弊案，小英男孩被抓了，郭智輝說後面還有更大尾的。要不要約談郭智輝？"],["鄭部長銘謙：證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡，我完全尊重臺北地檢署的偵查計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：臺北地檢署的偵查進度是由誰決定的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不能去干涉、指導個案。"],["黃委員國昌：所以臺北地檢署的偵查進度是由誰決定的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：由臺北地檢署的偵查團隊決定。"],["黃委員國昌：偵查團隊，好，是由承辦檢察官還是由檢察長決定的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：這你不清楚，奇怪了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我不會指導、介入、干涉……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你看具體個案到底要聽承辦檢察官的還是聽檢察長的？為什麼問你這個問題？這很重要啊！這會涉及到什麼？上級有沒有指導下級嘛！這很重要啊！所以我才問你啊！從法務部的立場，從規範的觀點……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我已經講過我不干涉個案……"],["黃委員國昌：應該要聽誰的？聽承辦檢察官的，還是聽檢察長的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查團隊是檢察一體，本來就是一個偵查團隊嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是，好，你知不知道這個案子去年就要動了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案件本來就是在……"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道這個案子去年就要動了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：這個你不清楚，那我現在跟你講，我在這邊直接公開檢舉，讓你們回去查，這個案子去年就要動了，是誰叫承辦檢察官不要動？部長應該也不知道，王俊力叫承辦檢察官不要動，王俊力叫承辦檢察官不要動，怎麼會搞到823以後才開始動這個案子？整整壓了1年耶！這個案子壓1年，你知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，你也不知道嘛！在黑箱裡面的作業，用檢察一體來遮掩，一堆案子能壓就壓、能拖就拖、能混就混，配合著政治在辦案，還有臉在這邊講，尊重檢察官的偵辦。沒有關係啊！我在這邊講話我負責嘛！承辦檢察官去年要動，王俊力說不要動，拖到823以後才動，就像郭智輝講的，大尾跑掉了啦！順便去了解一下，拖了這麼久有沒有洩密的問題。","接下來，避免執政者以人事控制個案，2017年司改國是會議決議的內容，民進黨秘書長憑什麼喬司法人事？民進黨秘書長可以喬司法人事嗎？這就是所謂的司法獨立、檢察官獨立嗎？王俊力在北檢是當紅檢察官，結果當上調查局局長，竟然是在他桃園地檢署任內，他所偵辦貪污犯的犯罪嫌疑人鄭文燦去幫他喬的，這個事情也太荒謬了吧！這個事情也太荒謬了吧！部長一直在這邊說，尊重檢察官，司法獨立、檢察官獨立。獨立在哪裡？獨立在哪裡？一個犯罪嫌疑人，王俊力是檢察長，負責偵辦這個案件，最後還簽結，結果王俊力當上調查局局長，是鄭文燦去喬的。部長，這個符合2017年司改國是會議決議的內容嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：這個怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於暗網的這件，高檢已經在偵查中了……"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：高檢署的調查……"],["黃委員國昌：要拖多久？反正以拖待變嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：在做司法調查……"],["黃委員國昌：受到社會質疑的時候就說我們有在調查了啦！要調查到什麼時候？不知道。要調查多久，不知道。相關的案子罄竹難書！罄竹難書啊！3年前這個國會，也就是上一屆國會在調查鏡電視弊案時是一模一樣的論調，司法檢調在調查了，調查什麼？現在案子在北檢檢察官手上啊！我公開在國會講過，人家調查人員要動，檢察官說不准動，通通不准動！這樣的司法偵辦有獨立性喔？有公信力喔？看著顏色在辦案而已啦！抓小放大啦！能拖就拖、能混就混。","再來，看這些被爆料出來的，林錫耀很大，他關說的司法人事一件一件全部符合客觀事實，上一次廉政署的副署長在這邊的時候我就問他，請託關說人士要不要進行廉政登錄？他給我的回答，要，要進行廉政登錄。我後來去文法務部請教有做廉政登錄嗎？你們有回文給我。有做廉政登錄嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有登錄。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有登錄？沒有登錄，依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是不是請託關說還要再調查嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果？"],["鄭部長銘謙：直接說什麼喬人事，這個還要再調查嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對不起喔，第一個，你已經確認沒登錄了嘛！第二個，我現在問你，沒有登錄應該產生什麼法律效果？這麼簡單的問題都不敢回答喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要尊重……這個還沒有調查完，我怎麼去回答個案的問題呢？"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了，公務人員廉政倫理規範是行政調查還是刑事調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在事實……"],["黃委員國昌：你當一個部長，連行政調查跟刑事調查都搞不清楚喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這整個是在司法調查的階段……"],["黃委員國昌：拜託，不要在這邊講空話，刑懲並行，行政調查是一回事，司法調查是一回事，你怎麼當一個法務部部長，連這麼基本的ABC都搞不清楚啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案的問題要尊重調查，高檢署的調查……"],["黃委員國昌：我就問你，有關於廉政倫理是行政調查還是刑事調查？是行政調查還刑事調查？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我已經跟委員答復了，這個沒有請求關說的登錄，再來就是有沒有請託關說……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以再來下一個問題就是違反公務人員的廉政倫理規範是行政事項還是刑事事項？是行政事項還刑事事項？不敢回答喔？法學的ABC不敢回答喔？這就是行政事項啊！行政事項你們法務部現在做什麼？全部推給刑事調查，哇！真好用耶！真便利耶！刑事調查現在變成了你們遇到廉政倫理規範，行政該處理的遮羞布，動都不用動？可以這樣嗎？可以這樣嗎？可以這樣嗎？你現在在等到時間、看著錶、看時間拖過去沒有是不是？還笑得出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有，我並沒有笑，我在……"],["黃委員國昌：看著錶，哇！我時間終於混過去啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這邊就有……"],["黃委員國昌：本席在上面問問題，我就是不回答，看你要怎麼辦？","來，我們接下來繼續往下看，司改國是會議的結論，檢審會要不要加入外部委員？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我反對。"],["黃委員國昌：這個你反對喔？所以你個人的意志超越了司改國是會議的決議嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我們現在責審委員有……"],["黃委員國昌：非常的有擔當啊！現在賴清德任命的法務部部長，一個人大聲的疾呼：我反對檢察官人事委員會有外部委員，難怪嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在檢察官的民選委員已經多過官派委員，這你不懂啦！現在我們檢察官……"],["黃委員國昌：難怪司改國是會議不僅僅是放天燈、大拜拜，現在是民進黨政府任命的法務部部長直接宣布司改國是會議歸司改國是會議，找一堆學者專家來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在檢察官票選的委員已經多過法務部的指定委員了……"],["黃委員國昌：共同討論的結論，法務部部長鄭銘謙就是反對！真厲害！這樣子把司改國是會議全部丟到垃圾桶去就好了嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員你說人事操作，這個完全是不實指控，這沒有引用外部委員的必要。"],["黃委員國昌：用個人的意志凌駕司改國是會議的決議。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對於檢察官的人事審議你根本不懂……"],["黃委員國昌：來看一下……"],["鄭部長銘謙：你完全不懂，票選多過官派……"],["黃委員國昌：對、對、對！全中華民國通通都不懂，只有你鄭銘謙一個人懂，這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你的問題就是檢察官的ABC……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是檢察官的ABC，這個你不懂啦！"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下！只有你一個人懂嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是我懂，這個檢察官都知道。"],["黃委員國昌：司法改革國是會議第三分組第一次增開會議的決議，在檢察人事制度的民主化部分，為使檢察人事制度符合民主問責並回應多元價值，法務部檢察官人事審議委員會應比照司法院法官人事審議委員會規定，加入外部委員。","有請司法院副秘書長，請問法官人事審議委員會有沒有外部委員？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有的。"],["黃委員國昌：司改國是會議的決議，對司法院而言，現在算什麼？算垃圾，是不是？司改國是會議的決議對司法院而言到底還算不算個東西？到底還算不算個東西？站在你旁邊的法務部長很傲慢啊！我部長反對啦！司改國是會議開什麼……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我跟你講，司法院……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我沒有請教你，不要搶人家的麥克風。"],["鄭部長銘謙：法務部沒有提名權跟否決權，也沒有審議權。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣一樣來啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不能這樣講啦！"],["黃委員國昌：我只有問你一件事情，司改國是會議的決議你遵不遵守？"],["鄭部長銘謙：司法院是不是有提名權跟審議權？又有沒有否決權嘛？"],["黃委員國昌：你今天在國會這邊公然講反對司改國是會議的決議！我現在是在請教司法院副秘書長，你有夠沒禮貌的，沒有我同意，沒有主席同意，自己站在旁邊就把麥克風搶來講，我現在是在請教司法院副秘書長，你以為你現在當法務部部長，在國會裡面愛幹嘛就幹嘛喔！我有請你回答嗎？我有請你回答嗎？現在法務部部長是怎麼樣，全國檢調在我手上，誰敢對我怎麼樣，這麼囂張喔！你在國會殿堂就這麼囂張喔！走出這個地方。","來，請問司法院副秘書長，司改國是會議的決議對於現在的司法院而言算什麼？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，司法院就我們所主管的法案及政策，我們還是會本於我們主管機關來審議的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，你還是沒有回答我問題啊。司改國是會議的決議對司法院算什麼？法務部部長表明得很清楚，司改國是會議的決議對現任賴清德所任命的鄭銘謙根本是空氣啊，一點都不重要，我鄭銘謙說了算，因為我現在當法務部部長。所有參與司改國是會議的全國學者專家、所有的外部委員，大家聽清楚，以後民進黨要召開任何的國是會議，不要再相信民進黨了，找來有什麼用？花了納稅人大筆的銀子，學者專家做了決議，我就沒有要遵守嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：重點那個是一個民主化的問題，現在是……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，我沒有請你回答，現在我是在請教司法院副秘書長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：……檢察官民主化的問題，現在已經落實，完全檢察官票選的，民主化的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我在請教司法院副秘書長，什麼時候國會的規矩變變成這樣了？"],["主席：先等一下，就依照立委的質詢……"],["黃委員國昌：召委，什麼時候司法法制委員會的規矩變這樣了？"],["主席：我們就依照立委的質詢，想要問誰就問誰。"],["黃委員國昌：現在沒有請他上來回答的人可以自己上來搶麥克風喔？什麼時候司法法制委員會的規矩變這樣？我有說錯嗎？司改國是會議的決議，我白紙黑字都貼在這邊耶，這不是我黃國昌一個人講的，這是第三分組第一次增開會議的決議。法官人事審議委員會，法官喔，人家都有外部委員，司改國是會議做這樣的決議，司法院也遵守，但我們現在的法務部很厲害，太上皇機關，不遵守就是不遵守！你個人反對沒有關係，你個人反對就繼續反對，修法到底會過不會過是立法院決定的，不是你鄭銘謙一個人決定的！"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位輪由本席發言，麻煩羅委員來代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 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農業部部長還有經濟部次長經濟部 農業部還有經濟部 農業部還有內政部"},{"start":32.118,"end":50.234,"text":"我想先就教於這個劉部長部長在7月2號的時候內政部有公布一個義孤島地區然後在7月10號那時候公布的時候13個縣市184個地點在7月10號的時候再次公布義孤島地區那我發現當初的這義孤島地區的這個184個地點當中台南是0個"},{"start":56.92,"end":72.889,"text":"那為什麼是台南市林格呢後來我發現原來當初所謂的這個義孤島地區只有停留在山區也就是土石流區主要原因是來自於八八風災之後我們的概念上就是避免外界斷訊"},{"start":73.889,"end":101.939,"text":"應該是各項風災之後的統計資料統計之後但是就主要著眼於在山區在山區的部分其實我們彙整起來一個很重要的關鍵是88風災裡頭一個很重要的經驗但不管如何但必須是以山區這邊為主後來本席在7月12號的時候質詢在8月12號的專報的時候都有提過事實上這些孤島專區所造成的已經不只停留在山區海邊也非常的嚴重"},{"start":103.4,"end":129.461,"text":"但這一次的這個電網的防災任性計畫當中有一個八億的部分就是要作為移動式電源儲能的電網的部分是經濟部但經濟部是配合我們內政部所提出的哪些是義孤島地區但是現在這些地區當中一樣沒有山區一樣只有山區一樣只有土石流地區也就是說我要請部長的部分把這一次海邊受災的這部分都列進去"},{"start":130.482,"end":151.13,"text":"在上一次我就有請董事列進去但這一次一樣沒有預算當然他沒有辦法分配到這八億啊那如果說這八億要不要做山區當然我認為有重要但是我認為應該多增加一些齁 災區的一層古島地區在海邊讓八加八億的方式我覺得部長這樣你們同不同意好 我們一定列入考慮"},{"start":151.67,"end":181.23,"text":"好 麻煩部長慎重思考因為這一次其實是異想之外120年來最嚴重的地方請部長慎重思考那另外一個部分呢因為它牽扯到在斷電的時候有一個現實上的問題我們現在的這個太陽能光電的部分我就想就教於這個經濟部的部分經濟部 次長次長 現階段有包括漁電公司地面型跟屋頂型還有一個水面型"},{"start":182.511,"end":190.664,"text":"剛剛看了 嘉義新聞的水面型處造成的災損的結果以及後續無法收拾的狀況你認為水面型的太陽能光電你繼續還要再延續嗎"},{"start":192.342,"end":221.514,"text":"跟委員報告 我們會加強它的這個抗風係數 還有加強抗風係數 讓120年來嘉義的家 翁御苑的家 根本就不會靠近嘛你要重新檢討以後這個太陽能光電要同意允許的這個部分要納入 加一下 禁止的可能性啦你如果比照這次風災就是一種那個抗壓的考驗嘛同樣的這個地面型的它毀損的比例是0.24那為什麼水面型的"},{"start":222.81,"end":244.945,"text":"完全潰敗 原因在哪裡這就是你要檢討的地方嘛這是第一個第二個的部分呢要如何讓地方的這個儲能系統能夠建構起來漁電共生的部分屬於農業部地面型的部分是屬於你們屋頂型的是屬於你們以後屋頂型是不是擴大是屬於內政部因為它國土屬於後的修法有關係就這三個幫"},{"start":246.626,"end":270.149,"text":"這三個發電系統來說要如何儲能 備援 共生 強化韌性這是非常重要的我覺得這個經濟部分現在編這個8億 110億的當中你應該考量到未來的部署的可能性你應該做一個主政單位連同內政部還有包括農業部一起找來你主揪然後做一個專案平台有沒有可能 市長"},{"start":272.232,"end":280.456,"text":"我們會再找農業部還有內政部這邊來找對 一起來溝通還有台電的曾董事長在嗎時間暫停一下時間暫停"},{"start":288.837,"end":314.046,"text":"曾董這一次的這個通訊電纜之所以全部斷訊的原因是主要有兩大間的民間的業者掛在我們電線上面跟著台電的電感導而斷訊嘛對不對有些是附掛台電電感你們這個有跟他收費嗎台電的電感附掛是要收費的對啊要收費那是不是收得太便宜了將來你不能提高它的價格逼得這個NCC的東西把它地下化有沒有可能"},{"start":315.68,"end":326.125,"text":"報告委員就我覺得要規劃地下化尤其是地下管線是重要我跟委員報告我覺得這一次我們在主幹道的那些電纜地下化事實上對 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落地小小就不通啦"},{"start":125.131,"end":142.229,"text":"因為到了九月的時候他也有一些相關的一個颱風和那個這個部分那以往都是超過一百多億啦所以你說現在我還是一樣你看我們今天啊這個很快的速度就會給你們通過這個相關的預算"},{"start":143.67,"end":159.705,"text":"相關的預算所以不要去編預備金預備金就是小金庫口袋裡面這個東西啊這裡面藏汙納垢在這裡面好請台電的台電的還有經濟部的長官一起來主席長不要跑經濟部市長還有台電台電長官一起"},{"start":165.612,"end":180.9,"text":"那個你可以看啊你們這裡面災後重建的你又變了109億的所謂電網的韌性啊這個特別條例這個馬上協商的又增加200億啊所以就有309億啊"},{"start":182.381,"end":207.42,"text":"你台電動不動就用這個韌性加強韌性而且2022年10年的強化電網韌性已經變了5645億所以這是一般的預算結果你特別預算又加了300多億這個外界高度質疑啦我們砍掉你的1000億啊你就會這樣子化整為零啦慢慢的要回來又特別預算快點加進來電網預算電網韌性就加起來"},{"start":211.843,"end":230.22,"text":"這個東西啊 這個所有的你們要台電借時還魂 要錢要回來的都假借任性之名把它要回來所以既然這樣子的話 那你們這一季 第一季 第二季賺錢嘛 對不對 台電的真懂"},{"start":231.449,"end":238.412,"text":"是夏季電價這幾個月賺錢嘛 對不對所以加上任性的要這個錢基本上109億我們也不為難你那個報告員109億是兩年半對啦 那不管幾年半都一樣所以你可不可以承諾下個月要談這個電價漲價的時候台電的立場就是主張不要漲電價 可以嗎"},{"start":257.461,"end":267.184,"text":"那個跟委員報告喔那個所有的電價都不是台電決定不是 你可以態度出來啊你的態度出來來 經濟部次長經濟部次長要不要有個態度出來跟委員報告我們會把這些資訊都提供給電價審議委員會那電價審議委員會會做出什麼考量但是你們的態度就不要講電價嘛這態度要拿出來嘛"},{"start":278.607,"end":286.753,"text":"對不對 你要這麼多錢呢這個不要剝兩層皮啊我們再請那個環境部長好不好環境部長 請回 環境部長環境部長 彭部長時間先暫停"},{"start":300.265,"end":314.537,"text":"委員好一件事啊你那個這次風災啊水災之後啊光電板都還沒有處理好啊然後現在來講的話廠商推你們也推你們也不去推廠商推你們沒有去push啊我們一直在push所以發了一千萬了時間點告訴我們什麼時候可以complete100%處理完什麼時候"},{"start":322.504,"end":340.3,"text":"報告委員他們現在已經開了300萬下一個300萬就這個禮拜他目前已經給我們一個清除計畫書我們現在在審他們希望延到9月5號那我們現在還在審核他 合不合理所以他的承諾不過這家廠商因為黃流你現在這承諾是一個月內喔一個月已經到了喔"},{"start":340.78,"end":351.472,"text":"委員 那個不是我清喔 是他們廠商自己要清他已經黃牛 我們已經重罰了重罰 要問你罰很少啊委員 這個是廢清法裡面的最高罰款300萬這個 這個 這個部長啊 這個"},{"start":355.777,"end":373.248,"text":"外界聽到我所得到的資訊是你承諾一個月內處理完他一個月內拋票啊他有池上水面上的清掉現在是在池上他放在旁邊我知道 我都知道對 只剩下一個場我們要看到的是全面啦那全面的都乾乾淨淨什麼時候啦"},{"start":374.669,"end":385.113,"text":"廠商目前承諾是9月5號9月5號那確定喔廠商承諾喔那你也要說你不能廠商承諾我們也會嚴格的審查到底合不合理你要去追啊你要盯著它9月5號報告委員我每個禮拜都去看要盯著9月5號我們已經非常嚴格在盯了9月5號我們就看9月5號我們會嚴格盯著謝謝 謝謝世保委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時38分）謝謝主席、各位先進，有請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長好。我時間有限，請你簡短回答就好了。我們看這次的災後重建特別預算，你編列一個預備金30億，這個是很奇怪的一個編法，我們都全部給你了，那麼需要的項目就匡起來。我們來看114年第一預備金39.5億，第二預備金80億，還有一個災害準備金50億，總共就有169.5億的預備金，結果你還編一個30億，那就變成是這個預備金預備放在那裡以備不時之需，就當作小金庫，到時候亂用一通、隨便你用，這條確實是最奇怪的……"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為有很多……"],["賴委員士葆：30秒就好了，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為有很多的項目是目前還沒有估算在裡面，然後也有很多委員說標準要放寬，這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：那你趕快改就好了，為什麼要編這麼多？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以這個部分我們是不是可以建議也比照行政院……就是如果每筆超過5,000萬，就送到貴院來做備查，這樣好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：這個要刪掉一些，不要編那麼多啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為的確是有它的需要……"],["賴委員士葆：30億……"],["陳主計長淑姿：而且每一次颱風都……"],["賴委員士葆：這個就是空白支票啊！空白支票給你們亂用一通，已經有將近170億的預備金了，你還編30億，等於是200億的預備金，根本用不完啦！你放在那邊「橐袋仔燒燒」，這不通啦！好啦！主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為到9月的時候，也有一些相關的颱風和這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：颱風都還沒有來啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：以往都超過一百多億……"],["賴委員士葆：來了再說啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在我還是一樣……"],["賴委員士葆：你看我們今天很快的速度就會給你們通過相關的預算。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：有相關的預算，所以不要去編預備金，預備金就是小金庫，口袋這個東西會藏污納垢在裡面。請台電及經濟部的長官一起來，主計長不要跑。"],["主席：請經濟部次長及台電。"],["賴委員士葆：可以看一下，在災後重建裡面，你們編了109億所謂的電網韌性，這個特別條例馬上要協商了，又增加200億，所以就有309億，台電動不動就用加強韌性，而且2022年公布的10年的「強化電網韌性建設計畫」已經編了5,645億，所以這是一般的預算，結果特別預算又加了三百多億，這個讓外界高度質疑，我們砍掉你的1,000億，你就這樣子化整為零，慢慢的要回來，因為特別預算趕緊加進來，電網預算、電網韌性都加進去，台電借屍還魂要回來的錢都假借韌性之名把它要回來，既然這樣子的話，你們第一季、第二季賺錢嘛，對不對？請問台電的曾董。"],["曾董事長文生：是夏季電價這幾個月。"],["賴委員士葆：賺錢嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：夏季電價才……"],["賴委員士葆：所以加上韌性要的這個錢，基本上109億我們也不為難你，這個錢……"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，109億是兩年半。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！不管幾年都一樣，你們可不可以承諾下個月要談電價漲價的時候，台電的立場就是主張不要漲電價，可以嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，所有的電價都不是台電決定……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你可以表達態度出來啊！你的態度要出來！經濟部次長，要不要有個態度出來？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們會把這些資訊都提供給電價審議委員會，電價審議委員會會做綜合考量。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你們的態度就要表達不要漲電價嘛，這個態度要拿出來，對不對？你跟我們要這麼多錢了，不要剝兩層皮啊！請回，我再請環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請環境部長。"],["賴委員士葆：時間先暫停。"],["主席：好，時間先暫停。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：一件事，這次風災、水災之後，光電板都還沒有處理好，現在廠商推，你們也推，你們也不去push。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們沒有推。"],["賴委員士葆：你們沒有去push啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們一直在push，所以也罰1,000萬了。"],["賴委員士葆：時間點告訴我們，什麼時候可以complete，100%處理完？什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，他們現在已經被開罰300萬，下一個300萬大概就是這個禮拜，目前他們已經給我們一個清除計畫書，我們正在審，它希望延到9月5號，我們現在還在審核看它合不合理，所以它的承諾……不過這家廠商因為黃牛……"],["賴委員士葆：你上次承諾我的是1個月內，1個月已經到了喔！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，那個不是我清喔，是廠商自己要清，他們已經黃牛，我們已經重罰了。"],["賴委員士葆：重罰？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["賴委員士葆：你罰很少啊！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，300萬是廢清法裡面的最高罰鍰。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，這個外界也聽到了，我所得到的資訊是你承諾1個月內會處理完，但1個月就跳票了啊！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，水面上的清掉了，現在是在池上的，它放在旁邊的有違法。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，我都知道。"],["彭部長啓明：只剩下一個場。"],["賴委員士葆：可是人民要看到的是全面，要全面都乾乾淨淨的，什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：廠商目前承諾是9月5號。"],["賴委員士葆：9月5號，要確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：廠商承諾喔！"],["賴委員士葆：你也要去盯，你不能只說廠商承諾。"],["彭部長啓明：我們也會嚴格審查到底合不合理、做不做得到。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你要去追，你要盯著到9月5號啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我每個禮拜都去看了。"],["賴委員士葆：要盯著，9月5號喔！"],["彭部長啓明：我們已經非常嚴格在盯了。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們就看9月5號。"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們會嚴格盯著。"],["主席：好，謝謝士葆委員。部長，9月5號要記得。","接著請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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因為時間有限所以一起請你們上來謝謝啦 我想從我們這一次的預算其實我看到我們有把這一次風災所造成的問題大概都有編入可是有幾個比較重要的就是說我們要麻煩我們內政部的部分就是我們的防水 加護防水閘門的部分這個很重要因為在過去所有的風災都有"},{"start":56.266,"end":73.545,"text":"大概都有編我們的專案補助那這一次一直遲遲沒有看到所以這個部分那個部長這個部分怎麼處理因為大家非常的期待因為從這一次的丹納斯我們看到之前所有的家戶防水閘門都有發揮作用"},{"start":74.085,"end":94.667,"text":"所以大家非常的期待趕快而且上一次因為預算太少了所以大家都是爭取然後做了之後跟我們區公所市政府來說的時候已經是賣糊了因為他說錢已經贏了所以這次可能我們要依照地方的需求給予更多的預算這可以嗎"},{"start":95.188,"end":119.873,"text":"是 謝謝委員 委員也多次關心我們現在的做法是這樣第一個如果有列到我們這個特別預算裡面的話我們會比照就是在山陀爾颱風裡面要申請這個水閘門補助的方案一致一視同仁來辦理那但是可能要請縣市政府要提這個案子讓我們內政部的國土署可以來做專案的審查那就可以按照這樣的方式來列入補助的方案"},{"start":120.393,"end":142.458,"text":"那這一次是不是可以由市政府先來做調查就是說在各區來做調查然後有需要的像我們內政部來專案申請可以是這樣嗎就是縣市政府提出一個補助辦法送到我們內政部國土署的話我們就會通案來辦理那還是有預算的問題預算因為這次在審查剛好是屬於我們這個風災的特別條例"},{"start":143.838,"end":163.139,"text":"那風災特別條例如果有列進去是屬於特定的項目的話我們還是會按照風災特別條例所需要的預算編列然後請求這600億裡面看怎麼樣做比較有效的支出因為現在還沒有一個大致上需要多少經費的這樣的認定所以我們就先從辦法程序上先打通以後就比較好辦理"},{"start":163.499,"end":187.348,"text":"好所以就是請台南市政府各縣市政府來擬定所謂的補助辦法送到我們內政部來處理針對家戶的防水閘門的部分做一個辦法來做審議的部分對不對好謝謝謝謝我們的部長那我再請教就是說我們的農民其實農民還有勞工"},{"start":189.929,"end":208.16,"text":"農民勞工待會請我們勞動部就勞工農民他們的一開始我就已經有要求就是紓困貸款因為其實我們這一次補貼雖然說真的很感謝我們行政院以最快的速度都給予過去所沒有的"},{"start":208.96,"end":231.961,"text":"以前都是救助辦法這次都多了補助所以用了補助來彌補了我們在法令上的不足所以真的很感謝我們的行政團隊可是呢總是還是有一些需要幫忙然後再推波助瀾一下所以我們認為農民勞工的紓困貸款是必要的那部長這部分呢"},{"start":233.498,"end":256.969,"text":"我跟委員報告 就是我們在一般的天然災害的貸款已經有了 那個已經處理那我們現在正在設計所謂的加計的週轉金 是那這個加計週轉金的概念就好像過去的那個 就是紓困啦對啦 只是改變一個名字啦 對 紓困的概念 就改變一個名字那我們希望說用這種方式來協助他用比較低的利率能夠讓他渡過這個難關"},{"start":258.109,"end":279.776,"text":"因為我們在過年的時候我們本身就都會有紓困貸款就是讓農民 讓勞工喝粿泥所以我覺得這個部分只是我們改變了一個名詞可是我們一定要趕快辦因為現在開始都要經理署訂了所以經理署訂的當中就需要這些錢所以這個部分要拜託 那勞工的勞動部馬上辦法就會出來勞工的部分勞工的部分"},{"start":291.869,"end":304.694,"text":"我們希望農民部然後勞工的部分因為其實有很多他也是必須是有勞工來做紓困貸款所以我們拜託我們財主單位回去轉告一下我們的勞工的部分"},{"start":305.794,"end":334.271,"text":"我們要在治水的部分就是經濟部經濟部的部分其實我們已經在這一次都幫你們盤整了這一次從我們安南去北區其實我們都剩最後一里路從我們六塊寮排水然後新寮 新寮 中陶寮13天我們其實都幫你們盤整過一次在802的時候我寮水 寮幾天了所以有關鍵性像這個新寮 中陶寮還有13天就是安中町水長"},{"start":335.071,"end":351.077,"text":"我們發現我們有抽水站但是整個排水系統沒有拉近抽水站所以湘涵非常重要就加上了內政部的湘涵還有排水系統所以這個部分甚至是我們長溪路安中路這個部分都是延續湘涵還有我們的"},{"start":353.398,"end":376.87,"text":"這個淨流崩洪的滯洪池公園下面的還有我們內政部的淺頓市這個一起淺頓市的我們的壓力相含因為我們現在所有的地下管線都已經被阻了你要去刷公所是有困難的所以就要拜託我們內政部就是說在我們的這個潛水壓力相含怎麼跟經濟部來做調配在治水的部分"},{"start":377.33,"end":391.943,"text":"然後另外就是我們交通部在這一次有我們的這個省道縣道鄉道然後市道的一個補助所以當我們管線這一次管線的部分我們知道"},{"start":392.403,"end":419.5,"text":"你又要鋪路又要挖管線在這一次我們經濟部的管線又有補了電力自來水瓦斯燃氣的系統然後還有相關的一些管線的部分所以你們要怎麼去搭配我覺得這是很重要的因為我們錢編了很多因為我們有一個重點我們要拜託在這一次在我們的所有的預算當中一定要做好我們如何做電纜地下化還有地下管線的共構"},{"start":420.36,"end":438.395,"text":"還有我們通訊防災的SOP剛剛NCC有就是我們的事前跟事後防災的SOP這一次非常的混亂所以要拜託NCC的主委這個部分要拜託我們的整個防災通訊的SOP一定要訂定出來謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":110,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時31分）謝謝主席。我是不是可以請內政部、農業部、交通部、經濟部這四個部，還有NCC？"],["主席：好，NCC、內政部、經濟部、農業部、交通部。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好，委員辛苦了。"],["陳委員亭妃：不好意思，因為時間有限，所以一起請你們上來，謝謝。我想從我們這一次的預算，其實我看到我們有把這次風災所造成的問題大概都有編入，可是有幾個比較重要的，我們要麻煩內政部的部分就是家戶防水閘門的部分，這個很重要，因為在過去所有的風災大概都有編專案補助，但這次一直遲遲沒有看到，所以部長，這個部分怎麼處理？因為大家非常地期待，從這一次的丹娜絲颱風，我們看到之前所有的家戶防水閘門都有發揮作用，所以大家非常期待能夠趕快，而且上一次因為預算太少了，所以大家都來爭取，做了之後，跟我們區公所、市政府說的時候，已經是來不及了，因為錢已經用完了。所以這次可能我們要依照地方的需求給予更多的預算，這可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員，委員也多次關心啦，我們現在的作法是這樣：第一個，如果有列到我們這個特別預算裡面的話，我們會比照山陀兒颱風時申請水閘門補助的方案，一視同仁來辦理，但是可能要請縣市政府提這個案子，讓內政部國土署可以來做專案的審查，就可以按照這樣的方式來列入補助的方案。"],["陳委員亭妃：這一次是不是可以由縣市政府先來做調查？就是在各區來做調查，然後有需要的向內政部來專案申請，可以是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛有提到，就是縣市政府提出一個補助辦法送到內政部國土署，我們就會通案來辦理。"],["陳委員亭妃：那還是有預算的問題啊！"],["劉部長世芳：因為這次在審查的剛好是屬於風災的特別條例……"],["陳委員亭妃：對。"],["劉部長世芳：風災特別條例如果有列進去是屬於特定項目的話，我們還是會按照風災特別條例所需要的預算編列，然後請求這600億裡面看怎麼樣做是比較有效的支出，因為現在還沒有一個大致上需要多少經費的認定，所以我們就先從辦法程序上打通以後，就比較好辦理。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，所以就是請臺南市政府……"],["劉部長世芳：還有嘉義縣……"],["陳委員亭妃：由各縣市政府擬訂所謂的補助辦法送到內政部處理，針對家戶防水閘門的部分做補助辦法的審議，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，謝謝部長。我再請教，其實農民及勞工……待會請勞動部。關於勞工及農民的部分，一開始我就已經有要求紓困貸款，因為這一次的補貼，說真的很感謝行政院以最快的速度都給予過去所沒有的，以前都是救助辦法，這次多了補助，所以用了補助來彌補法令上的不足，因此真的很感謝我們的行政團隊，可是總還有一些需要幫忙，然後再推波助瀾一下，所以我們認為農民、勞工的紓困貸款是必要的。部長，這部分呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們在一般的天然災害貸款已經有了，那個已經處理，我們現在正在設計所謂的家計週轉金，而家計週轉金的概念就好像過去的……"],["陳委員亭妃：就是紓困啦！只是改變一個名字啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，紓困的概念，改變一個名字，我們希望用這種方式來協助他用比較低的利率能夠讓他渡過這個難關。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為在過年的時候，我們本身就都會有紓困貸款。"],["陳部長駿季：對、對，每一年的過年前都有。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是讓農民、勞工好過年。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得這個部分只是改變了一個名詞，可是你們一定要趕快辦。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為現在開始都要整理屋頂了，而整理屋頂的當中就需要這些錢，所以這個部分要拜託。"],["陳部長駿季：我們可能馬上辦法就會出來。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。而勞工的部分，勞動部呢？"],["陳部長駿季：勞動部今天沒有來。"],["陳委員亭妃：今天沒有勞動部，OK。我們希望農民的部分、勞工的部分，因為其實有很多也必須是由勞工來做紓困貸款的，所以拜託財主單位回去轉告一下關於勞工的部分。在治水的部分就是經濟部，關於經濟部的部分，其實我們已經在這一次都幫你們盤整了，這次安南區、北區都剩最後一哩路，從六塊寮排水，然後新寮、總頭寮、十三佃，我們其實都幫你們盤整過一次，在802的時候我「蹽水」一整天，所以有關鍵性，像新寮、總頭寮及十三佃，就是安中抽水站，我們發現有抽水站，但是整個排水系統沒有拉進抽水站，所以箱涵非常重要，就加上了內政部的箱涵及排水系統，甚至是長溪路、安中路這個部分都是延續箱涵，還有公園下面的逕流分攤滯洪池，以及內政部的潛盾式的壓力箱涵，因為現在所有的地下管線都已經備足了，要去移管線是有困難的，所以就要拜託內政部，在治水的部分看看潛盾壓力箱涵怎麼跟經濟部做調配。","另外，交通部在這次有省道、縣道、鄉道、市道的補助，所以這一次管線的部分，我們知道你們要鋪路又要挖管線，這一次經濟部針對管線又有補了，包含電力、自來水、瓦斯、燃氣的系統及相關一些管線的部分，你們要怎麼去搭配？我覺得這是很重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們錢編了很多，有一個重點，要拜託在這一次的所有預算當中，一定要做好如何電纜地下化、地下管線共構及通訊防災SOP，剛剛NCC有……"],["主席：好，謝謝陳亭妃委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：就是事前跟事後防災的SOP，這一次非常的混亂，所以要拜託NCC的主委，整個防災通訊的SOP一定要訂定出來，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：請賴士葆召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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慢慢請台電曾董事長好 曾文森董事長台電董事長早這個風災喔台電的同仁都非常的辛苦啦也要在這邊跟你們"},{"start":25.979,"end":46.31,"text":"為了跟你們感謝大家的辛苦付出為了台灣但是我注意到最近的媒體報導因為平和公路啊自從他的電感地下化之後在蘇貞昌院長時代地下化之後這幾年颱風來這個整個屏南都沒有停電沒有斷電的問題是不是這樣"},{"start":49.406,"end":57.359,"text":"確實那個平和公路地下化以後就之前因為2016年漠然地颱風帶來的一些災害後來就沒有再出現過"},{"start":58.536,"end":79.729,"text":"所以就是有很多縣市的首長看到平和公路電感地下化之後這個強風好雨來都沒有停電的狀況所以現在其實很多縣市很羨慕我看到好多縣市都在爭取說他們主要幹線上面的這一些電線電纜他們也希望地下化你有接到這方面的訊息嗎那個跟委員報告就是"},{"start":84.315,"end":109.737,"text":"那個因為地方首長當然也有一些會透過跟我們區組做反應但是我們最近接到最多其實是國會議員大院的委員反應比較多那因為我們跟你們的關係比較直接所以很多人在反應所以我看你今年這個600億的這個房災預算裡面你們台電有編列了102億那主要是不是要做這方面的類似相關的工作對"},{"start":111.957,"end":137.78,"text":"那這一百零二億我認為絕對不夠啊你這一百零二億只能做一部分吧主要的計畫要做在哪裡跟委員報告啊就是說之前颱風過後其實在經濟委員會也有詢答過那我們那時候有跟委員報告說我們那時候規劃主要是針對主要災區就雲嘉南的台17線台19線這個主要幹道來做地下化的工作這個都是省道啊是17線19線"},{"start":139.5,"end":156.465,"text":"阿所以問題是你說台17線台19線這個在整個公路體系跟你的電網體系裡面就只佔很小的部分阿跟委員報告台電的這些電感總共有300多萬支是"},{"start":157.355,"end":180.729,"text":"所以是真的要做你要全面都做完地下化那個可能性其實很低但是最重要的是他像血管一樣我們保護關鍵的血管那我的意思是說你這一次變成這102億就足以做關鍵的血管嗎沒有辦法做全部我們主要是集中在台17線台19線雲嘉南原來是雲嘉南這三個地方對但是"},{"start":182.179,"end":209.378,"text":"董事長我是要跟你說明喔颱風不是只有當然是颱風耶沒錯我們台灣每年都在面對颱風的考驗啦是那這一次因為運氣很不好他從台南登陸喔那沒有經過我們的中央山脈所以他整個都沒有被破壞到那雲嘉南受損就非常的嚴重是因為剛好就是一馬平川平原他都吹過來沒得擋啊所以你這一次一百"},{"start":211.199,"end":231.344,"text":"這個102億主要做台17間跟台19間的這個電網他的主要地下化工程我個人認為這遠遠不足啦是確實不夠譬如我知道我看到媒體彰化他也在要求啊那哪裡也在要求啊其實你不要這樣講我們新北市也需要"},{"start":232.506,"end":261.038,"text":"對不對難道我們新北市不需要嗎雖然我們新北市在大台北地區我個人認為我們也很需要啊這個你的看法怎麼樣新北市的部分因為我們這邊都市化比較高啦那它其實地效的程度相對於我們西南沿海的縣市來講比例是高很多那有局部脆弱的地方我們也是會一併來做檢討在這一次因為去年後來最年底的那個崗位颱風來還是有造成電感導斷"},{"start":262.506,"end":291.105,"text":"我的意思是說102億你做台17台19雲嘉南主要受災區是因為這個特別條例的關係嘛你台電有沒有什麼樣比較遠程的計畫逐步當然不可能一步到位加上你現在資本也不夠那也急需要本院同意你能夠給一千億兩千億這樣撥補嘛在這個還沒有到位之前你有什麼樣子的計畫準備逐步去推動這個工作呢"},{"start":291.803,"end":313.939,"text":"跟委員報告就是說當然我們現在主要是在規劃沿海比較容易受颱風侵襲的地方那過去因為颱風都從東邊來所以東邊的台9跟台11我們有做了一部分那這一次颱風來還是有導端的部分我們會把還沒有做好的也一併強化那台17台19這個沿線的部分那事實上"},{"start":316.101,"end":340.447,"text":"往南到高雄屏東往北還有彰化等等我們有部分的路段其實還沒有完全做完的我們也希望能夠逐步做起來好那在這邊因為你剛剛提到的台東我也跟你感謝因為那是我的故鄉啦很多颱風從東邊來那我認為這是一個很重要的工作但是它當然不是一蹴可擊的它需要大量的資本逐步的累進推進"},{"start":341.307,"end":349.98,"text":"工程做好之後對台電也有好處啊你的以後的維修什麼東西會減少很多嘛對不對是董事長你們辛苦了謝謝但是為了台灣要繼續加油好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":73,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時25分）主席，麻煩請台電曾董事長。"],["主席：好，請台電曾文生董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：董事長早。受到風災影響，台電的同仁都非常辛苦，也要在這邊跟你們慰勞、跟你們感謝，大家的辛苦付出都是為了臺灣。但是我注意到最近的媒體報導，因為自從屏鵝公路在蘇貞昌院長時代進行電纜地下化之後，這幾年颱風來，整個屏南都沒有停電、沒有斷電的問題，是不是這樣？"],["曾董事長文生：之前因為2016年莫蘭蒂颱風帶來的一些災害，確實屏鵝公路地下化以後，就沒有再出現過。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以有很多縣市首長看到屏鵝公路電纜地下化之後，強風豪雨來都沒有停電的狀況，所以現在其實很多縣市都很羨慕，我看到好多縣市都在爭取他們主要幹線上面的這些電線、電纜也希望地下化，你有接到這方面的訊息嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，地方首長當然也有一些會透過我們的局處來反映，但是我們最近接到最多的其實是國會議員、大院的委員反映比較多。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為我們跟你們的關係比較直接嘛，所以很多人會反映啦。我看今年600億的防災預算裡面，台電有編列了102億嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：主要是不是要做這方面類似相關的工作？"],["曾董事長文生：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：這102億我認為絕對不夠，你這102億只能做一部分嘛，主要的計畫要做在哪裡？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，之前颱風過後，其實在經濟委員會也有詢答過，我們那時候有跟委員報告說，我們那時候規劃主要是針對主要災區，也就是雲嘉南的台17線、台19線的主要幹道做地下化的工作。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個都是省道啊。"],["曾董事長文生：是，台17線、台19線。"],["吳委員秉叡：你說台17線、台19線，問題是這在整個公路體系跟你的電網體系裡面只占很小的部分啊。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，台電的這些電桿總共有三百多萬支，所以真的要全面都做完地下化，那個可能性其實很低，但最重要的是它像血管一樣，我們保護關鍵的血管，這是有必要的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是，你們這一次編的這102億就足以做關鍵的血管嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：不夠，沒有辦法做全部，我們主要是集中在台17線、台19線、雲嘉南，原來是雲嘉南這三個地方。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，但是董事長，我是要跟你說明喔，颱風不是只有丹娜絲颱風……"],["曾董事長文生：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們臺灣每年都在面對颱風的考驗，這一次因為運氣很不好，它從臺南登陸，沒有經過我們的中央山脈，所以整個結構都沒有被破壞到，雲嘉南受損就非常嚴重，因為剛好就是一馬平川，從平原那邊吹過來，沒得擋啊！所以你們這次編的102億主要做台17線跟台19線的電網地下化工程，我個人認為這遠遠不足啦。"],["曾董事長文生：是，確實不夠。"],["吳委員秉叡：我看到媒體報導，彰化也在要求啊，哪裡也在要求啊，其實你不要這樣講，我們新北市也需要耶，對不對？難道我們新北市不需要嗎？雖然我們新北市在大臺北地區，我個人認為我們也很需要啊，這個部分你的看法怎麼樣？"],["曾董事長文生：因為新北市都市化比較高，其實其地下化的程度相對於西南沿海的縣市來講，比例是高很多，有局部脆弱的地方，我們這次也會一併來做檢討，因為去年後來最年底的康芮颱風來，還是有造成電桿倒斷。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是，102億你做台17線、台19線、雲嘉南主要受災區，是因為這個特別條例的關係嘛。"],["曾董事長文生：對，因為丹娜絲颱風。"],["吳委員秉叡：台電有沒有怎麼樣比較遠程的計畫逐步……當然不可能一步到位，加上你們現在資本也不夠，也亟需本院同意你們能夠給1,000億、2,000億的撥補，在這部分還沒有到位之前，你有什麼樣的計畫準備逐步去推動這個工作呢？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，當然我們現在主要是在規劃沿海比較容易受颱風侵襲的地方，過去因為颱風都從東邊來，所以東邊的台9跟台11我們有做了一部分，這一次颱風來還是有倒斷的部分，我們會把還沒有做好的也一併強化；台17、台19這些沿線的部分，事實上，往南到高雄、屏東，往北還有彰化等等，有部分的路段其實還沒有完全做完的，我們也希望能夠逐步做起來。"],["吳委員秉叡：好。因為你剛剛提到了臺東，在這邊我也跟你感謝，因為是我的故鄉，很多颱風從東邊來。我認為這是一個很重要的工作，這當然不是一蹴可幾的，需要大量的資本逐步地累進、推進，工程做好之後對台電也有好處，以後的維修什麼等等的都會減少很多嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：董事長，你們辛苦了，但是為了臺灣要繼續加油，好不好？"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝。"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡委員。","接著請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","楊瓊瓔","張智倫","黃珊珊","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","林俊憲","鍾佳濱","羅廷瑋","李昆澤","黃秀芳","李坤城","張宏陸","黃捷","陳玉珍","謝衣鳯","牛煦庭","王育敏","李彥秀","張雅琳","許智傑","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","徐富癸","范雲","王正旭","郭昱晴","林月琴","蘇清泉","李柏毅","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","葉元之","劉建國","高金素梅","蔡其昌","邱議瑩","魯明哲","徐欣瑩","劉書彬","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","王美惠","陳素月","游顥","陳超明","萬美玲","廖偉翔","邱志偉","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","黃健豪","鄭天財Sra 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復養大概六個月左右因為部長現在你看中元節包括馬上中秋節了解"},{"start":126.152,"end":141.822,"text":"那這個大節日來那當然他的需求量可能就會比較大那因為此次颱風造成許多豬隻的死亡那民眾其實有在擔心擔心什麼 必死豬就那個死亡的豬"},{"start":142.722,"end":164.315,"text":"有沒有做好銷毀的機制甚至於它會不會流入市場因為農業部以目前整個豬隻死亡的這些流向是不是有掌握我想我們整個豬隻照規定它所有的死掉的部分的豬一定要進到化製廠"},{"start":165.447,"end":193.139,"text":"那化製廠我們就會去勾結第二個部分就是我們租制有死亡保險死亡保險的部分的時候最主要當初開辦的死亡保險就是防止說這些豬又流到市面上病死豬流到那有保險的話他會因為有保費可以領取所以他本身經過化製以後確認以後就可以領了理賠所以這個部分病死這部分絕對不會流落到我們的消費市場這個我想請消費者放心"},{"start":193.479,"end":209.218,"text":"因為本席是希望說農業部 衛福部這方面要確保整個食品的安全以避免這些死亡的豬隻流入加工廠讓民眾吃到肚子裡面這個是必要一定要做的"},{"start":211.109,"end":232.364,"text":"我跟委員報告我剛才說了這些淹死的豬一定是進到化智場化智而且化智場那邊有記錄然後有經過保險的去查核所以這個病死豬絕對不會流落到市場這個部分我想請消費者放心你們要呼籲而且讓大家知道不然的話很多人吃那個加工食品大家都會怕"},{"start":233.224,"end":250.282,"text":"對不對 那個部長我再請問因為許多這些養豬場都設在這個河邊甚至比較低窪的地區那在此次丹納斯颱風暴風雨過後造成很多這些養豬場受到嚴重的損害那農業部預計說編差不多8億來協助這些戶員修繕"},{"start":255.066,"end":275.055,"text":"那本席認為說如何避免同樣的天災造成這些養豬場大量豬隻的死亡那我請問農業部你們有沒有一些配套的措施我跟委員報告就是我們在過去四年養豬產業百億基金裡面我們就針對很多續勤社的改建"},{"start":275.695,"end":293.801,"text":"那蓄勤式改建的部分包括高床的部分那高床的部分不只是可以避免到一些淹水也可以讓我們的豬糞尿的收集豬糞尿分離的時候有更好的一個處理的措施所以我們過去這四年來花了將近到120多億就是去改善這個豬舍的這些環境"},{"start":296.442,"end":322.838,"text":"對啦 我認為說最重要你這一次這個補助他們以後你一定要讓他們這個遷往這個地勢比較高的地方去這個做他養豬的一個環境以避免下一次在地化地區一樣你只要一颱風馬上又淹水豬隻又死亡不要這樣重蹈覆轍了解好 以上 謝謝好 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財政資訊中心副主任李副主任"},{"start":2311.823,"end":2339.258,"text":"接著介紹原住民委員會我們的曾志勇主委社會福利處羅處長經濟發展處王處長公共建設處劉處長原住民民主文化發展中心邱煌主任主計室戴科長再來我們介紹NCC代理主委陳從事陳主委陳代理主委"},{"start":2340.495,"end":2357.017,"text":"基礎設施處陳處長平台事業管理處副處長黃天陽黃副處長主計室陳主任行政院工程管理委員會陳金德陳主委"},{"start":2359.484,"end":2382.242,"text":"謝謝陳主委那也謝謝副主任委員李一德副主任委員在這段時間一直就是住進我們迎家南那個前進指揮所不斷的開會那謝謝那個我們技術處曾處長主計師孫主任那也謝謝內政部劉世胖部長的一個參與那會計處徐處長"},{"start":2388.602,"end":2395.69,"text":"國土管理署吳署長吳信修吳署長那教育部那個政部長"},{"start":2399.485,"end":2417.865,"text":"那我們的國教署潘署長還有會計處劉處長經濟部政務次長何次長會計處王處長水利署林延鵬林署長能源署副署長吳志偉"},{"start":2422.094,"end":2440.101,"text":"還有我們的商業發展署副署長陳副署長那產業發展署周副署長鍾曉吉新創新創我們的李署長國英師檢任記證林檢任記證台電董事長曾文森"},{"start":2442.895,"end":2451.371,"text":"總經理王耀廷 副總經理台水副總經理王傳政 副總經理交通部陳思凱部長"},{"start":2453.444,"end":2460.629,"text":"我們的路政及道路司吳司長 綜合規劃司張司長 會計處黃處長 觀光署陳署長 公路總局我們的副局長 林聰立副局長那農業部 謝謝陳經濟部長 會計處陳處長 畜牧師李司長"},{"start":2475.419,"end":2499.285,"text":"那個農民輔導師陳師長綜合規劃師韓副師長還有我們的林業及自然保育署副署長廖義光副署長還有我們的農業發展農村發展及水土保持那個代理署長蘇茂祥那我們一業署那個陳俊佑副署長接著我們"},{"start":2504.237,"end":2531.033,"text":"謝謝那個農經署那個李署長還有農田水利署那個蔡署長還有我們農糧署姚思妍姚署長環境部謝謝那個彭部長會計處陳處長還有水質保護保護師副市長 廚副市長資源循環署賴署長還有環境管理署林護署長那文化部那個"},{"start":2532.56,"end":2544.519,"text":"李部長還有我們的政務次長李敬惠那個次長主計處吳處長還有文化資產局主任秘書張主任秘書以上"},{"start":2546.162,"end":2568.575,"text":"本次的會議由財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通及社會福利及衛生環境委員會等六個委員會聯席今日安排審查行政院含情審議中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別條例預算114年度至116年度"},{"start":2571.276,"end":2590.429,"text":"現在請於是請下列相關的部會首長就特別預算內容進行報告那本席在這裡做裁決我們就請主計總那個主計總長那個陳總長來做報告那其他各個單位在現場是不是我"},{"start":2591.874,"end":2604.54,"text":"在那個現場我是不是就是請示我們各位同仁是不是其他的部會我們就是我們就是自己參考說明好不好好請那個陳組長"},{"start":2615.1,"end":2629.727,"text":"主席各位女士先生各位委員女士先生今天應邀列席聯席會議就中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災害護援重建特別預算編列請請提出報告"},{"start":2630.99,"end":2649.265,"text":"那行政院為加速推動復原的一個重建強化既有機制和擴大資源投入於114年8月7號將丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建的特別條例案送請大院來審議並經大院於8月15號三讀通過奉總統於8月19日公佈那第五條第十條"},{"start":2655.891,"end":2683.314,"text":"本條例所需的經費上限是600億並以特別預算的方式來編列那本條例施行的期間是公佈日至施行115年12月31日但電力系統電信系統和有線廣播電信系統水利設施項目施行至116年12月31日請翻閱那再來本特別預算的主要"},{"start":2684.215,"end":2703.704,"text":"编列一税处编列600亿是114年到116年分别编列191亿元316亿元和93亿元按照机关别的分项如下第一个原住民委员会和所属编列46亿主要是办理原住民组"},{"start":2704.304,"end":2722.315,"text":"部落基礎設施公共建設聯絡道路橋樑等災害搶修和復建等那第二個國家通訊委員會編列3億元是辦理受災地區電信系統和有線廣播電視系統復原重建補助等那第三個是行政院公共工程委員會編列1億元是辦理"},{"start":2722.875,"end":2750.291,"text":"部員重建辦公室所需要的經費第四個內政部主管編列38億元主要是補助地方政府辦理住宅屋頂以外牆損壞之拆除修繕和煤河等那第五個教育主管編列4億元是補助地方政府辦理國民中小學校園在後牆修復及復建工程第六個經濟部編列187億元主要是波普台灣電力公司辦理遷改"},{"start":2751.671,"end":2772.278,"text":"遷改供電線路輸電配電架空線路及補助地方政府辦理系統性質水和水利設施和搶修與復建等工程交通部編列69億主要是辦理省道搶修和復建工程還有補助地方政府辦理市縣區道路觀光設施修復和復建工程等"},{"start":2773.398,"end":2796.807,"text":"農業部主管編列203億元主要是協撥補農業天然災害救助基金辦理農業損失現金救助和低利貸款利息補貼等那第九個環境部編列16億元主要是補助地方辦理政府災害環境護援會棄物清除環境保護設施和災害講修及復建等工程那時文化部編列3億元"},{"start":2798.547,"end":2816.819,"text":"主要是編列受災古蹟歷史建築聚落等的一個搶修和修復所需經費那第11個預備金這一次編列30億元是因應特別預算期間各項工作執行所需那正式別的部分經濟發展支出編列83.14%"},{"start":2821.661,"end":2828.744,"text":"編列501億元那一般政務支出是編列46億元佔7.7%預備金30億元佔5%社區發展和環境保護支出16億元佔2.7%教育科學文化支出7億元佔1.2%以上所需要的裁員600億全部舉借"},{"start":2842.829,"end":2850.585,"text":"舉借債務支應以上報告進行為主席和各位委員、理事先生會議指教並鼎力支持謝謝"},{"start":2852.827,"end":2872.127,"text":"好謝謝那現在開始詢詢答先做以下的一個先告每一位出席的委員花園的時間是五分鐘列席的委員是三分鐘那今日上午十點那個截止花園的一個登記現在一登記的順序請登記第一位林德虎委員質詢"},{"start":2886.107,"end":2893.311,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席與會的各部會首長還有各位同仁是不是請那個農業部陳部長陳部長"},{"start":2905.222,"end":2921.014,"text":"委員好部長你好我請問因為丹納斯颱風造成很多中南部這些地區的株色淹水尤其是台塘以台塘為例它株質的死亡差不多一萬頭"},{"start":2922.535,"end":2940.487,"text":"那現在豬價是破百這個民眾荷包縮水那我請問部長這個以採取哪些豬肉價格的調節措施你們有沒有這樣的一個方案我跟委員報告這兩天的豬價開始已經有開始回跌"},{"start":2941.447,"end":2961.628,"text":"我們因為這次的一些豬可能因為中南部一些像您剛才說的有一些豬隻受到菸水死亡所以我們採取了幾個措施第一個措施就是我們協調冷凍工會因為冷凍工會也會進到批發市場去抓豬以後去做加工品所以我們協調冷凍工會以後"},{"start":2963.369,"end":2988.274,"text":"這段時間先去在復養這段時間先去掃去拍賣市場去抓豬讓更多的豬隻可以進到拍賣市場讓消費者使用這第一個部分第二個部分就是我們也針對主要的這些拍賣的過程裡面的修飾的部分我們做一些調節那做調節了以後最近的豬價就開始回穩那你認為到整個穩定差不多時間多久"},{"start":2989.328,"end":3005.02,"text":"一頭豬大概從乳豬開始大概要六個月到七個月甚至到八個月所以說最少要六個月以上六個月 復養大概六個月左右因為部長現在你看中元節包括馬上中秋節了解"},{"start":3006.101,"end":3021.768,"text":"那這個大節日來那當然它的需求量可能就會比較大那因為此次颱風造成許多豬隻的死亡那民眾其實有在擔心擔心什麼 必死豬就那個死亡的豬"},{"start":3022.668,"end":3044.273,"text":"有沒有做好銷毀的機制甚至於它會不會流入市場因為農業部以目前整個豬隻死亡的這些流向是不是有掌握那個部長我想我們整個豬隻照規定它所有的死掉的部分的豬一定要進到化製廠"},{"start":3045.396,"end":3073.087,"text":"那化製廠我們就會去勾結第二個部分就是我們租制有死亡保險死亡保險的部分的時候最主要當初開辦的死亡保險就是防止說這些豬又流到市面上病死豬流到那有保險的話他會因為有保費可以領取所以他本身經過化製以後確認以後就可以領了禮賠所以這個部分病死這部分絕對不會流落到我們的消費市場這個我想請消費者放心"},{"start":3073.427,"end":3089.164,"text":"因為本席是希望說農業部 衛福部這方面要確保整個食品的安全以避免這些死亡的豬隻流入加工廠讓民眾吃到肚子裡面這個是必要一定要做的"},{"start":3091.058,"end":3112.305,"text":"我跟委員報告我剛才說了這些淹死的這些豬一定是進到化製廠化製而且化製廠那邊有記錄然後有經過保險的去查核所以這個病死豬絕對不會流落到市場這個部分我想請消費者放心你們要呼籲而且讓大家知道不然的話很多人吃那個加工食品大家都會怕"},{"start":3112.645,"end":3130.233,"text":"了解對不對那個部長我再請問因為許多這些養豬場都設在這個河邊甚至比較低窪的地區那在此次丹納斯颱風暴風雨過後造成了很多這些養豬場受到嚴重的損害那農業部預計說編差不多8億來協助這些復原修繕"},{"start":3135.015,"end":3155.003,"text":"那本席認為說如何避免同樣的天災造成這些養豬場大量豬隻的死亡那我請問農業部你們有沒有一些配套的措施我跟委員報告就是我們在過去四年養豬產業百億基金裡面我們就針對很多續勤社的改建"},{"start":3155.643,"end":3173.763,"text":"那蓄勤式改建的部分包括高床的部分那高床的部分不只是可以避免到一些淹水也可以讓我們的豬糞尿的收集豬糞尿分離的時候有更好的一個處理的措施所以我們過去這四年來花了將近到120多億就是去改善這個豬舍的這些環境"},{"start":3176.385,"end":3202.806,"text":"對啦 我認為說最重要你這一次這個補助他們以後你一定要讓他們這個前往這個地勢比較高的地方去這個做他養豬的一個環境以避免下一次在低窪地區一樣你只要一颱風馬上又淹水豬隻又死亡不要這樣重蹈覆轍了解好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3206.123,"end":3220.713,"text":"好 謝謝林德虎委員 接著請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席 麻煩請台電曾董事長好 曾文森董事長台電委員長"},{"start":3230.782,"end":3258.332,"text":"董事長早這個風災台電的同仁都非常的辛苦也要在這邊為到跟你們感謝大家的辛苦付出為了台灣但是我注意到最近的媒體報導因為平和公路自從它的電感地下化之後在蘇貞昌院長時代地下化之後這幾年颱風來這個整個屏南都沒有停電沒有斷電的問題是不是這樣"},{"start":3261.381,"end":3269.349,"text":"確實那個平和公路地下化以後就之前因為2016年漠然地颱風帶來的一些災害後來就沒有再出現過"},{"start":3270.515,"end":3291.701,"text":"所以就是有很多縣市的首長看到平和公路電感地下化之後這個強風好雨來都沒有停電的狀況所以現在其實很多縣市很羨慕我看到好多縣市都在爭取說他們主要幹線上面的這一些電線電纜他們也希望地下化你有接到這方面的訊息嗎那個跟委員報告就是"},{"start":3296.571,"end":3321.713,"text":"因為地方首長當然也有一些會透過跟我們取組做反應但是我們最近接到最多其實是國會議員大院的委員反應比較多因為我們跟你們的關係比較直接所以很多人在反應所以我看你今年600億的房災預算裡面你們台電有編列了102億是主要是不是要做這方面的類似相關的工作對"},{"start":3323.936,"end":3349.756,"text":"那這一百零二億我認為絕對不夠啊你這一百零二億只能做一部分吧主要的計畫要做在哪裡跟委員報告就是說之前颱風過後其實在經濟委員會也有詢答過那我們那時候有跟委員報告說我們那時候規劃主要是針對主要災區就雲嘉南的台17線台19線這個主要幹道來做地下化的工作這個都是省道啊是17線19線"},{"start":3351.619,"end":3368.461,"text":"所以問題是你說台17線台19線這個在整個公路體系跟你的電網體系裡面就只佔很小的部分啊跟委員報告台電的這些電感總共有300多萬支是"},{"start":3369.355,"end":3392.709,"text":"所以是真的要做你要全面都做完地下化那個可能性其實很低但是最重要的是它像血管一樣我們保護關鍵的血管那我的意思是說你這一次變成這102億就足以做關鍵的血管嗎沒有辦法做全部我們主要是集中在台17線台19線雲嘉南原來是雲嘉南這三個地方對 但是"},{"start":3394.158,"end":3421.361,"text":"董事長我是要跟你說明颱風不是只有當然是颱風我們台灣每年都在面對颱風的考驗這一次因為運氣很不好他從台南登陸沒有經過我們的中央山脈所以他整個都沒有被破壞到雲嘉南受損就非常的嚴重是因為剛好就是一馬平川平原他都吹過來沒得擋所以你這一次一百"},{"start":3423.203,"end":3443.343,"text":"這個102億主要做台17線跟台19線的這個電網它的主要地下化工程我個人認為這遠遠不足啦是確實不夠譬如我知道我看到媒體彰化他也在要求啊那哪裡也在要求啊其實你不要這樣講我們新北市也需要"},{"start":3444.485,"end":3473.017,"text":"對不對難道我們新北市不需要嗎雖然我們新北市在大台北地區我個人認為我們也很需要這個你的看法怎麼樣新北市部分因為我們這邊都市化比較高那它其實地效的程度相對於我們西南沿海的縣市來講比例是高很多那有局部脆弱的地方我們也是會一併來做檢討在這一次因為去年後來最年底的那個康衛颱風來還是有造成電感導斷"},{"start":3474.503,"end":3503.104,"text":"我的意思是說102億你做台17台19雲嘉南主要受災區是因為這個特別條例的關係你台電有沒有什麼樣比較遠程的計畫逐步當然不可能一步到位加上你現在資本也不夠那也急需要本院同意你能夠給一千億兩千億這樣撥補在這個還沒有到位之前你有什麼樣子的計畫準備逐步去推動這個工作呢"},{"start":3503.806,"end":3525.917,"text":"跟委員報告就是說當然我們現在主要是在規劃沿海比較容易受颱風侵襲的地方那過去因為颱風都從東邊來所以東邊的台9跟台11我們有做了一部分那這一次颱風來還是有導端的部分我們會把還沒有做好的一併強化那台17台19這個沿線的部分那事實上"},{"start":3528.078,"end":3552.431,"text":"往南到高雄屏東往北還有彰化等等我們有部分的路段其實還沒有完全做完的我們也希望能夠逐步做起來好 那在這邊因為你剛剛提到的台東我也跟你感謝因為那是我的故鄉啦很多颱風從東邊來那我認為這是一個很重要的工作但是它當然不是一蹴可擊的它需要大量的資本逐步的累進推進"},{"start":3553.291,"end":3565.359,"text":"工程做好之後對台電也有好處啊你的以後的維修什麼東西會減少很多嘛 對不對是董事長你們辛苦了謝謝但是為了台灣要繼續加油好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝秉瑞委員接著請陳廷輝委員質詢"},{"start":3583.143,"end":3597.608,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是可以請內政部 農業部 交通部然後經濟部這四個部還有我們的NCC好來 NCC 內政部 經濟部 農業部 交通部"},{"start":3598.786,"end":3627.427,"text":"因為不好意思 因為時間有限所以一起請你們上來 謝謝我想從我們這一次的預算其實我看到我們有把這一次風災所造成的問題大概都有編入可是有幾個比較重要的就是說我們要麻煩我們內政部的部分就是我們的防水 加護防水閘門的部分這個很重要因為在過去所有的風災都有"},{"start":3628.228,"end":3644.826,"text":"大概都有編我們的專案補助那這一次一直遲遲沒有看到所以這個部分那個部長這個部分怎麼處理因為大家非常的期待因為從這一次的丹納斯我們看到之前所有的家戶防水閘門都有發揮作用"},{"start":3646.047,"end":3666.629,"text":"所以大家非常的期待趕快而且上一次因為預算太少了所以大家都是爭取然後做了之後跟我們區公所市政府來說的時候已經是賣糊了因為他說錢已經贏了所以這次可能我們要依照地方的需求給予更多的預算這可以嗎"},{"start":3667.15,"end":3691.847,"text":"是 謝謝委員 委員也多次關心我們現在的做法是這樣第一個如果有列到我們這個特別預算裡面的話我們會比照就是在山陀爾颱風裡面要申請這個水閘門補助的方案一致一視同仁來辦理那但是可能要請縣市政府要提這個案子讓我們內政部的國土署可以來做專案的審查那就可以按照這樣的方式來列入補助的方案"},{"start":3692.347,"end":3715.006,"text":"那這一次是不是可以由市政府先來做調查就是說在各區來做調查然後有需要的向我們內政部來專案申請可以是這樣嗎就是縣市政府提出一個補助辦法送到我們內政部國土署的話我們就會通案來辦理那還是有預算的問題預算因為這次在審查剛好是屬於我們這個風災的特別條例"},{"start":3715.666,"end":3735.101,"text":"那風災特別條例如果有列進去是屬於特定的項目的話我們還是會按照風災特別條例所需要的預算編列然後請求這600億裡面看怎麼樣做比較有效的支出因為現在還沒有一個大致上需要多少經費的這樣的認定所以我們就先從辦法程序上先打通以後就比較好辦理"},{"start":3735.461,"end":3760.448,"text":"好 所以就是请台南市政府各县市政府来拟定所谓的补助办法送到我们内政部来处理针对家户的防水闸门的部分做一个办法来做审议的部分对不对好 谢谢谢谢我们的部长那我再请教就是说我们的农民其实农民还有劳工"},{"start":3761.348,"end":3780.126,"text":"好 農民勞工待會請我們勞動部就勞工 農民他們的一開始我就已經有要求就是紓困貸款因為其實我們這一次補貼雖然說真的很感謝我們行政院以最快的速度都給予過去所沒有的"},{"start":3780.926,"end":3803.926,"text":"以前都是救助辦法這次都多了補助所以用了補助來彌補了我們在法令上的不足所以真的很感謝我們的行政團隊可是呢總是還是有一些需要幫忙然後再推波助瀾一下所以我們認為農民勞工的紓困貸款是必要的那部長這部分呢"},{"start":3805.461,"end":3828.931,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們在一般的天然災害的貸款已經有了那個已經處理那我們現在正在設計所謂的加計的周轉金是那這個加計周轉金的概念就好像過去的那個就是紓困啦對啦只是改變一個名詞啦就改變一個名詞那我們希望說用這種方式來協助他用比較低的利率能夠讓他渡過這個難關"},{"start":3830.071,"end":3856.059,"text":"因为我们在过年的时候我们本身就都会有纾困贷款就是火龙鸣 火热缸 喝桂泥所以我觉得这个部分只是我们改变了一个名词可是我们一定要赶快办因为现在开始都要经理出店了所以经理出店的当中就需要这些钱所以这个部分 拜托那劳工的劳动部马上办法就会出来劳工那个劳动部劳工的部分劳工的部分"},{"start":3861.271,"end":3879.408,"text":"今天沒有勞動部我們希望農民部然後勞工的部分因為其實有很多他也是必須是有勞工來做紓困貸款所以我們拜託我們財主單位回去轉告一下我們的勞工的部分我們要在治水的部分就是經濟部"},{"start":3880.969,"end":3906.247,"text":"經濟部的部分其實我們已經在這一次都幫你們盤整了這一次從我們安南去北區其實我們都剩最後一里路從我們六塊寮排水然後新寮 新寮 中陶寮13天我們其實都幫你們盤整過一次在802的時候我寮水 寮幾天所以有關鍵性像這個新寮 中陶寮還有13天就是安中町水長"},{"start":3907.028,"end":3923.037,"text":"我們發現我們有抽水站但是整個排水系統沒有拉近抽水站所以湘涵非常重要就加上了內政部的湘涵還有排水系統所以這個部分甚至是我們長溪路安中路這個部分都是延續湘涵還有我們的"},{"start":3925.378,"end":3948.849,"text":"這個淨流分紅的滯洪池公園下面的還有我們內政部的淺頓市這個一起淺頓市的我們的壓力相含因為我們現在所有的地下管線都已經被阻了你要去刷公所是有困難的所以就要拜託我們內政部就是說在我們的這個潛水壓力相含怎麼跟經濟部來做調配在治水的部分"},{"start":3949.289,"end":3963.906,"text":"然後另外就是我們交通部在這一次有我們的省道 縣道 鄉道然後市道的一個補助所以當我們管線這一次管線的部分我們知道"},{"start":3964.366,"end":3991.459,"text":"你又要鋪路又要挖管線在這一次我們經濟部的管線又有補了電力自來水瓦斯燃氣的系統然後還有相關的一些管線的部分所以你們要怎麼去搭配我覺得這是很重要的因為我們錢編了很多因為我們有一個重點我們要拜託在這一次在我們的所有的預算當中一定要做好我們如何做電纜地下化還有地下管線的共構"},{"start":3992.319,"end":4014.38,"text":"還有我們通訊防災的SOP剛剛NCC有好 謝謝就是我們的事前跟事後防災的SOP這一次非常的混亂所以要拜託NCC的主委這個部分要拜託我們的整個防災通訊的SOP一定要訂定出來好 謝謝好 那個請賴世保召委質詢"},{"start":4027.283,"end":4031.766,"text":"謝謝主席 各位先進了有請主計長好嗎好 主計總長委員好主計長好 我時間很有限請你簡短回答就好了我們看這一次的一個災後重建的特別預算你編了一個預備金30億這個是很奇怪的"},{"start":4056.903,"end":4066.767,"text":"很奇怪的一個編法我們都全部給你了那麼就需要項目就框起來我們來看114年第一預備金39.5億第二預備金80億還有一個災害準備金50億總共就有169.5億"},{"start":4075.97,"end":4091.6,"text":"的一個預備金結果你還變一個30億那就變成這個預備金預備預備放在那裡不時之需就當作小金庫到時候亂用一通隨便你用變成這一條線是最奇怪的"},{"start":4095.022,"end":4120.807,"text":"因為有很多的項目是目前還沒有估算在裡面然後也有很多委員他是說標準要放寬那這個部分呢那你就給他趕快改就好了你為什麼要編這麼多呢那所以這個部分呢我們是不是可以建議就是說也是比照那個行政院就是如果沒比超過五千萬就送到我們櫃院來做一個備查才那個這樣好不好"},{"start":4123.027,"end":4131.05,"text":"這個要刪掉啦 要刪掉一些啦不要變那麼多啦30億 這個就空白支票啊空白支票給你們亂用一通喔已經有將近170億的預備金了你還變30億等於200億的預備金根本用不完啦你放在那 落地小小就不通啦"},{"start":4145.114,"end":4161.594,"text":"因為到了九月的時候它也有一些相關的一個颱風和那個這個部分那以往都是超過一百多億啦所以你說現在我還是一樣你看我們今天這個很快的速度就會給你們通過這個相關的預算"},{"start":4163.636,"end":4179.669,"text":"相關的預算 所以不要去編預備金預備金就是小金庫的口袋裡面這個東西啊這裡面 藏汙納垢在這裡面好 請台電的台電的還有經濟部的長官一起來主席長不要跑經濟部市長 還有台電台電長官一起"},{"start":4185.578,"end":4200.865,"text":"那個你可以看啊你們這裡面災後重建的你又變了109億的所謂電網的韌性啊這個特別條例這個馬上協商的又增加200億啊所以就309億啊"},{"start":4202.346,"end":4227.43,"text":"你台電動不動就用這個韌性加強韌性而且2022年10年的強化電網韌性已經變了5645億所以這是一般的預算結果你特別預算又加了300多億這個外界高度質疑啦我們砍掉你的1000億啊你就會這樣子化整為零啦慢慢的要回來又特別預算快點加進來電網預算電網韌性就加起來"},{"start":4231.792,"end":4249.13,"text":"這個東西啊 這個所有的你們要台電屆時還魂 要錢要回來的都假借任性之名把它要回來所以既然這樣子的話 那你們這一季 第一季 第二季賺錢嘛 對不對 台電的真懂"},{"start":4251.418,"end":4264.582,"text":"是夏季電價這幾個月賺錢嘛 對不對所以加上任性的 用這個錢基本上109億我們也不為難你那個報告員109億是兩年半對啦 那不管幾年半都一樣所以你可不可以承諾下個月要談這個電價漲價的時候台電的立場就是主張不要漲電價 可以嗎"},{"start":4277.446,"end":4287.95,"text":"那個跟委員報告喔那個所有的電價都不是台電決定不是 你可以態度出來啊你的態度出來來 經濟部次長經濟部次長要不要有個態度出來跟委員報告我們會把這些資訊都提供給電價審議委員會那電價審議委員會但是你們的態度就是不要講電價嘛這態度要拿出來嘛"},{"start":4298.573,"end":4306.7,"text":"對不對 你要這麼多錢呢這個不要剝兩層皮啊我們再請那個環境部長好不好環境部長 請回 環境部長環境部長 彭部長時間先暫停"},{"start":4320.231,"end":4338.609,"text":"委員好一件事啊你那個這次風災啊水災之後啊光電板都還沒有處理好啊然後現在來講的話廠商推你們也推你們也不去push我沒有推我們也沒有推你們沒有去push啊我們一直在push所以發了一千萬了時間點告訴我們什麼時候可以complete100%處理完什麼時候"},{"start":4342.472,"end":4360.286,"text":"報告委員他們現在已經開了300萬下一個300萬就這個禮拜他目前已經給我們一個清除計畫書我們現在在審他們希望延到9月5號那我們現在還在審核他 合不合理所以他的承諾不過這家廠商因為黃流你現在這承諾是一個月內喔一個月已經到了喔"},{"start":4360.746,"end":4371.438,"text":"委員那個不是我清喔是他們廠商自己要清他已經黃牛我們已經重罰了重罰然後去那問題罰很少啊委員這個是廢清法裡面的最高罰款300萬這個部長啊這個"},{"start":4375.723,"end":4393.214,"text":"外界聽到我所得到的資訊是你承諾一個月內處理完他一個月的票票啊他有池上水面上的清掉現在是在池上他放在旁邊我知道 我都知道對 只剩下一個場我們要看到的是全面啦那全面的都乾乾淨淨什麼時候啦"},{"start":4394.635,"end":4411.386,"text":"廠商目前承諾是9月5號9月5號那確定喔廠商承諾喔那你也要說你不能廠商承諾我們也會嚴格的審查到底合不合理你要去追啊 你要盯著到9月5號報告委員我每個禮拜都去看要盯著9月5號我們已經非常嚴格在盯了9月5號 我們就看9月5號我們會嚴格盯著謝謝 謝謝世保委員部長9月5號要記得 記得好 接著請郭國文委員"},{"start":4434.05,"end":4434.691,"text":"主席有請內政部部長 農業部部長還有經濟部次長經濟部 農業部還有經濟部 農業部還有內政部"},{"start":4454.08,"end":4472.815,"text":"我想先就教於這個劉部長部長在7月2號的時候內政部有公布一個義孤島地區然後在7月10號那時候公布的時候13個縣市184個地點在7月10號的時候再次公布義孤島地區那我發現當初的這義孤島地區的這個184個地點當中台南是0個"},{"start":4478.9,"end":4494.854,"text":"那為什麼是台南市林格呢後來我發現原來當初所謂的這個義孤島地區只有停留在山區也就是土石流區主要原因是來自於八八風災之後我們的概念上就是避免外界斷訊"},{"start":4495.575,"end":4523.902,"text":"应该是各项风灾之后的统计资料统计之后但是就主要着眼于在山区在山区的部分其实我们汇整起来一个很重要的关键是八八风灾里头一个很重要的经验但不管如何当然毕竟是以山区这边为主后来本席在7月12号的时候质询在8月12号的专报的时候都有提过事实上这些孤岛专区所造成的已经不止停留在山区海边也非常的严重"},{"start":4525.362,"end":4545.755,"text":"但這一次的這個電網這個防災任性計畫當中有一個八億的部分就是要作為移動式電源儲能的電網的部分這經濟部 但經濟部是配合我們內政部所提出的哪些是義孤島地區但是現在這些地區當中一樣沒有山區 一樣只有山區一樣只有土石流地區"},{"start":4546.736,"end":4573.089,"text":"也就是說我要請部長的部分把這一次海邊受災的這部分都列進去在上一次我就請董事列進去但這一次一樣沒有預算當然他沒有辦法分配到這8億那如果說這8億要不要做山區當然我認為有重要但是我認為應該多增加一些災區的一層孤島地區在海邊讓8加8億的方式我覺得部長這樣你們同不同意好 我們一定列入考慮"},{"start":4573.649,"end":4603.209,"text":"好 麻煩部長慎重思考因為這一次其實是異想之外120年來最嚴重的地方請部長慎重思考那另外一個部分呢因為它牽扯到在斷電的時候有一個現實上的問題我們現在的這個太陽能光電的部分我就想就教於這個經濟部的部分經濟部 次長次長 現階段有包括漁電公司地面型跟屋頂型還有一個水面型"},{"start":4604.471,"end":4612.65,"text":"剛剛看了 嘉義新聞的這水面型處造成的這災損的結果以及後續無法收拾的狀況你認為水面型的這個太陽能光電你繼續還要再延續嗎"},{"start":4614.302,"end":4643.479,"text":"跟委員報告我們會加強它的這個抗風係數還有什麼加強抗風係數那120年來嘉義在這兒王委員在這兒那根本就不會靠近嘛你要重新檢討以後這個太陽能光墊要同意允許的這個部分要納入加一下靜止的可能性啦你如果比照這次風災就是一種那個抗壓的考驗嘛同樣的這個地面型的它毀損的比例是0.24那為什麼水面型的"},{"start":4644.793,"end":4666.91,"text":"完全潰敗 原因在哪裡這就是你要檢討的所在嘛這是第一個第二個的部分呢要如何讓地方的這個儲能系統能夠建構起來漁電共生的部分屬於農業部地面型的部分是屬於你們屋頂型的是屬於你們以後屋頂型是不是擴大是屬於內政部因為它國土屬於後的修法有關係就這三個"},{"start":4668.591,"end":4692.109,"text":"這三個這個發電系統來說要如何儲能 備援 共生 強化韌性這是非常重要的我覺得這個經濟部門現在編這個8億 111億的當中你應該考量到未來的部署的可能性你應該做一個主政單位連同內政部還有包括農業部一起找來你主揪然後做一個專案平台有沒有可能 市長"},{"start":4694.191,"end":4702.435,"text":"我們會再找農業部還有內政部這邊來對 一起來溝通還有台電的曾董事長在嗎時間暫停一下時間暫停"},{"start":4710.816,"end":4736.028,"text":"曾董這一次的這個通訊電纜之所以全部斷訊的原因是主要有兩大間的民間的業者掛在我們電線上面跟著台電的電感導而斷訊對不對有些是附掛台電電感你們這個有跟他收費嗎台電的電感附掛是要收費的對啊 要收費那是不是收得太便宜了將來你不能提高它的價格逼得這個NCC的東西把它地下化有沒有可能"},{"start":4737.643,"end":4753.728,"text":"報告委員就我覺得要規劃地下化尤其是地下管線是重要我跟委員報告我覺得這一次我們在主幹道的那些電纜地下化事實上對 地下化的同時幫電線電纜包括路燈還有交通耗資一併我們會找交通部一起來合作管道法的部分我有請內政部處理了"},{"start":4755.929,"end":4778.111,"text":"所以這個部分現階段的行政院的部分是以你們做主政為主政以地下化的部分是以電力系統為主連帶其他的管線單位應該一併處理陳董事長我就是做這樣提醒你主幹線的部分一定要聯合 好不好那接下來我再請次長一下次長 最後把握一點時間因為你這一次的預算產發署的部分給一億"},{"start":4779.913,"end":4800.8,"text":"最高給20萬 挺多能500家結果你商業署的部分給5.9億最高1萬 最高1萬居然要給5.9萬家可是你知道災區的部分的情況底下是製造業的這個受損遠遠高過於服務業結果服務業的部分居然是6倍於這個製造業你們有沒有搞錯"},{"start":4803.882,"end":4824.941,"text":"而且金融要提高你們不能停留到零四零三的思考零四零三是你們在花蓮救災的經驗現在台南的狀況是不一樣的市長跟我們報告我們除了編這一筆預算以外我們還有一些貸款 利息補貼的預算那個有限啦那三十萬 四十萬那我都知道但是問題直接補助是最有幫助的該提高一萬的部分要打破"},{"start":4826.823,"end":4839.091,"text":"該突破20萬的部分要突破該把這個受災護的照顧範圍要放大好不好調整一下啦這個不符比例原則嘛謝謝各位部長跟次長 謝謝接著請林思明委員質詢謝謝主席我先請內政部的劉部長"},{"start":4854.926,"end":4856.649,"text":"好內政部好部長好"},{"start":4869.062,"end":4885.555,"text":"副院長昨天這個卓院長在立法院被尋的時候針對我們114年的總預算先前在他論述的時候把凍結說成是誤說為刪除對這件事他表示道歉"},{"start":4886.616,"end":4900.566,"text":"媒體報導稱之為大罷免實力後身段變軟了所以我不禁在此要感慨如果沒有726沒有823的大罷免大失敗32比0的頑封的話"},{"start":4902.567,"end":4919.388,"text":"執政黨是否就不會承認說錯話就不會意識到過去正事不做不務正業應該趕快回歸到崗位上上井發條為風災 為雨災所造成的重大傷害的復原來做正事"},{"start":4920.609,"end":4944.329,"text":"我們也看到總統面對災區的居民的需求總統前往視察竟然告訴災民家園的清理要由你們社區自行來處理房屋屋頂的修繕 蓋房布你們自己要去爬上去人民要求趕快修復通訊總統卻說我們郭國文委員的電話會通"},{"start":4946.15,"end":4950.935,"text":"所以這樣的一個談話我們感覺根本不知苦民所苦我想請問部長你當時在場嗎"},{"start":4953.705,"end":4979.999,"text":"總統去視察的時候 你在場嗎抱歉 我沒有過去你沒有過去嘛 說不準所以我們現在就很納悶為什麼整個部會在整個總統去視察的時候包括內政部這麼重要的部會你會不在場呢報告委員因為丹納斯颱風還有0728還有0802這三個連續由內政部跟經濟部主導的行政院的災防中心我們都在處理有關救災的部分"},{"start":4980.459,"end":5007.341,"text":"那在第一時間的復原跟重建我們也是依照行政院的指導就是所有的SOP都在走所以總統過去視察的時候他有要求其他的部會沒有要求你他就找我們消防署的同仁跟著去OK 好 這樣我了解但是我想這一次的所造成的嚴重災情我們充分顯露政府災害這個善後的韌性嚴重不足"},{"start":5008.482,"end":5022.199,"text":"所以這樣子的一個情況之下內政部是否應該引以為戒其實部長你沒去我是覺得滿遺憾的你還是要去啦為總統去視察那個跟內政部的業務也有相關嗎報告委員那個後來院長過去還有我"},{"start":5025.103,"end":5051.958,"text":"自己也到每個地方不同因為我們所負責的項目各不相同每個部會都非常的認真跟委員報告一下部長我想其實因為大家事後檢討就認為內政部其實還有很多要去進步的地方我想請問這個部長對於這次救災調度效率差全責機制有不明的部分內政部有沒有痛定思痛研擬具體的一個改革改善的一個方案"},{"start":5052.758,"end":5074.005,"text":"報告委員我們在這次丹納斯颱風跟0728還有0802在這個行政院的這個災防中心裡面其實它原來的這樣子的跟地方政府一起來配合的SOP是沒有問題的但是呢我們呢有一個發現有一個非常大的一個需要改進的地方就是這一次因為風力非常的強"},{"start":5075.145,"end":5103.965,"text":"甚至高達17級風或者是雨量非常的大比莫拉克的時候還要多所以造成電線桿全部全倒的狀況之下我們在救災的速度上因為有通訊不良的問題確實有產生一些狀況這些狀況我在事後邀集我們的警政還有消防單位就通訊上面在救災的體系上面怎麼樣做研擬我們有研擬若干的辦法出來包括說我們未來"},{"start":5104.765,"end":5124.036,"text":"在這個災防中心如果要開辦之前所以有在研擬具體的一個改善就在這個改善機構有在做啦我只想了解你們事後有沒有在做啦有兩三次以上的會議在做改善謝謝有在做就好了那好部長你先請回請那個水利署署長OK"},{"start":5131.064,"end":5153.793,"text":"署長 我們從95年到今年114年將近20年的期間我們中央對於整個治水的一個計畫的經費是否已經高達2700億對有2700億嗎但是據本席所悉截至去年年底縣市河川與區域排水平均治理率僅有45.69%"},{"start":5156.914,"end":5169.014,"text":"一半數的縣市治理率未達五成花了那麼多錢請問你 為何諮詢率那麼低報告委員 從95年那時候治理率是19%"},{"start":5170.677,"end":5198.454,"text":"那到現在是45沒有錯那最主要是因為現在要投入很多土地的部分還有很多堤防那個費用都滿貴的所以我們在有限資源裡面我們盡量投入人口的密集區域我想為什麼你不用跟我講得很清楚我們看到的數據就是這樣所以這一次我們編列的特別預算包含水利署的這個設施搶修及復建經費有60億"},{"start":5200.695,"end":5222.176,"text":"所以我希望你我看到過去的執行率那麼低你這次又編列了60億所以這60億你要好好的去執行執行率那麼低難怪說風災水災一來整個就經不起考驗所以你既然編了這個經費我希望你這一次一定要讓我們看到執行率是OK的你太低就沒有成效"},{"start":5223.317,"end":5229.881,"text":"對不對 好吧是 我們全力來努力非常謝謝委員謝謝思敏接著請舒巧慧委員質詢好 謝謝主席我想請公共工程委員會陳金德 陳朱偉和農業部陳部長陳俊基 陳部長好 陳朱偉還有農業部部長"},{"start":5252.341,"end":5278.152,"text":"主委好 陳主委好那先跟您請教主委好有看到這一次其實我們這個丹娜斯颱風以及我們728的這個豪雨的部分在南部治災您都有率隊率整個行政團隊下去救災非常感謝那可是我想確認一下跟您請教一下其實現在應該您也會同意我們這次的災害其實就是極端氣候產生的吧這沒有問題嗎"},{"start":5279.752,"end":5289.735,"text":"豪雨的確是過去所沒有風也是 而且是過去在江南平原一帶沒有遇到這種颱風沒錯 所以這樣劇烈的極端的氣候產生的災害我想未來只會越來越多可能成為新常態所以我們過去不是沒有努力"},{"start":5301.118,"end":5324.66,"text":"民進黨政府其實長期投入了預算在治水全國已經超過2800億可是我想新的災害還是會來所以我今天問兩位主委的其實問主委以及部長的其實都是關於災後重建的部分陳主委我就只問你一題就好了以我們新北京山為例雖然沒有像南部那麼嚴重但是在上一次山陀而颱風我們就發現這樣問題"},{"start":5326.221,"end":5348.671,"text":"我金山的農民我的田被大水大雨沖壞了我們的田是被沖毀的然後上面電線桿損毀倒在我的田上面然後旁邊的道路又攤方好 現在這種情況我要先向哪個單位通報我要跟哪個單位來求救我是一個農民我找誰"},{"start":5350.823,"end":5373.945,"text":"像這種颱風每個縣市都有應該成立災害應變中心所以應該立刻跟新北市政府相關單位來申請所以其實層層到最後應該就是地方政府甚至是在地的單位其實也就是區公所"},{"start":5375.126,"end":5401.693,"text":"坦白講就是跟區公所嘛農民一定是跟在地的公所最有連結嘛對不對所以這一個這樣的機制跨部會協調是政府的工作不管是中央政府或地方政府或跨部會其實都是各部會政府的工作嘛這個完全同意嘛所以我對您這邊的期待要求就是未來大家的這個SOP可以建立得更好跨部會的協調更好啦那"},{"start":5402.313,"end":5427.881,"text":"主委可能就到這邊 謝謝因為剩下的我要問陳部長主委就請先回去先回座休息 謝謝好 部長那我就接下去跟你問剛剛金山的那一塊田我們金山的這塊田接下來就進入到了農損農損就是災後重建要怎麼得到第一步的支援的部分好 我去問了公所了那部長現在這個損害怎麼認定您認為要怎麼處理"},{"start":5431.713,"end":5449.741,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說有關於是不是救助這個作物第一個一定會先公告公告完了以後他就可以到公所去申請申請的部分會有一個公所的現刊會來處理現刊誰做現刊是公所的人員來做公所會做嗎"},{"start":5451.021,"end":5476.443,"text":"公所我們在每一種作物的現刊之前都會開講習會讓公所了解主委我就是等您這句話啦時間的關係我就直接說我的需求我們其實災害地方不是常常都有像過去沒有人想過金山會淹水金山在山上沒有人想過金山會淹水所以你已經讓區公所的人來做第一線協助他們都很辛苦了"},{"start":5476.803,"end":5499.444,"text":"可是你叫公所的人馬上就會認定農損他們會怕他不知道要怎麼認定接下來發出去的都是國家的錢公務員也會擔心嘛所以如果您認同未來全國各地都有可能因為極端氣候發生災害的話那麼我認為重建量能當中的這種像災損的認定人員的訓練也應該成為新常態的一環主委認同嗎"},{"start":5502.907,"end":5508.834,"text":"我非常認同特別是在這次中南部很多攻守的人員因為異動的關係所以變成是一個新手很辛苦但是我們就給他配備包括知識量能的配備我們一定會做能難訓練因為真的時間大家都很趕所以這一條是這樣實際跟您說"},{"start":5520.347,"end":5538.384,"text":"第二個您說剛剛關於這個紓困貸款的部分那我也認同應該要有紓困可是主委我從過去在跟您請教的有一條就是我們有一個這個青壯年農民從農貸款要點我相信部長您一定很清楚陳部長"},{"start":5539.665,"end":5559.142,"text":"可是部長直接跟你討論我的爭點我們的第三條第四款當中有說我們去貸款這個青壯年農民從農貸款的人他在全年的非農業的收入的部分不能超過基本工資的1.25倍這是多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":5560.203,"end":5573.057,"text":"四十三萬全年不得超過四十三萬可是以我剛剛東北的東北岸的這個農民來說我十二月這整個冬季我都沒有辦法從農他大概就四個月所以如果我要去繳一個貸款通常這"},{"start":5576.32,"end":5592.549,"text":"農作會停要休耕貸款不會停啊所以我還是必須要打工來還這一筆這個費用就差不多就是這個事實了那現在再加上天災的部分就更多如果我因為這樣損害剝奪了我的身份貸款身份我覺得這樣是不妥的啦這個平常就會發生那我認為災後更會啦所以特別提醒這一點我們希望可以再討論放寬"},{"start":5600.313,"end":5616.789,"text":"我跟委員報告在這次的災害的過程中兩年之內就不受這個限制第一個就不受打工因為他可能因為因為損毀需要復建所以他直接去外面工作他就不會受這個限制那後續有關於剛才1.25倍我們也會來檢討改善好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝巧慧接著請林一錦委員質詢"},{"start":5630.084,"end":5641.975,"text":"謝主席有請NCC陳代理主委經濟部核次長水利署林署長文化部理部長文化部水利署NCC"},{"start":5649.426,"end":5672.901,"text":"首先我先請教陳代理主委這次南部的受災一個很嚴重的就是停電又斷訊我想今天跟你談的就是通訊韌性的問題之所以斷訊我想就是實體的電信設備嚴重受損雖然災後有競速搶修可是我想最根本的問題還是在於電信設備"},{"start":5674.242,"end":5691.224,"text":"基地台跟基礎的結構等等太過於脆弱那如果相較起來為什麼在旱之下都會區的通訊網路比較不受影響那就是所謂的電纜有沒有地下化光纖電纜有沒有地下化就是一個很關鍵的因素"},{"start":5692.185,"end":5704.433,"text":"那卓工泰院長已經有指示經濟部跟台電公司要做全國的電力的電纜的地下化的先期的規劃跟評估那NCC也有請電信業者來規劃這個光纖的電纜的地下化或增加感線或鐵塔的抗風指數等等"},{"start":5711.897,"end":5738.591,"text":"那我想這些規劃對於未來的抗災都至關重要畢竟你如果沒有對外的通訊你外界要怎麼進駐救災都很難第一時間得到正確的消息所以我想請教陳代主委的是說那這一次風災通訊韌性不足的地方長期目標當然就是全面的所謂的光電纜地下化可是目前你的規劃的進程如何那短期內要有什麼樣的方案去克服這樣的問題"},{"start":5739.887,"end":5754.584,"text":"是 跟委員回報第一點就是我們在任性的部分我們希望在建設 請業者建設更多高抗災的基地台所謂高抗災就是說它的終極回傳到核心網絡部分"},{"start":5755.425,"end":5776.292,"text":"可以走微波也可以走卫星这一块我们跟数位部有密切合作今年度会在三家各拨给他们各三台卫星OneWeb的卫星中继的行动车这是第二部分高抗灾记忆台部分高抗灾记忆台有些它的中继也是走微波也是走卫星所以这一块"},{"start":5776.872,"end":5792.726,"text":"我們也是同時來雙管齊下另外剛剛委員講的就非常專業就是說正常情況下的走回合網的中繼室走光纖在都會區其實三大業者幾乎都已經地下化沒問題"},{"start":5793.547,"end":5812.346,"text":"可是在郊區或比較偏遠的地區地下化有它的實質的一些挑戰比方說它可能會有一些道路會崩塌等等之類的即便是老牌子的中華電信它那邊也是自己立電信桿在那邊弄所以這一塊我們會逐步來討論那另外"},{"start":5814.232,"end":5833.386,"text":"光暖地下化這個其實在十幾年前在我們政府有個M台灣計畫有推行過但是當時效果大概還沒有完全達到我們目前的期待我們未來會跟相關部會來通力來合作另外也跟"},{"start":5834.747,"end":5848.062,"text":"委員報告電力纜跟電信纜在一個管溝裡頭必須要有一定程度的一些間隔因為它那個功率強度不一樣這個在施作上到時候我也會跟相關機關一起來討論"},{"start":5849.804,"end":5867.514,"text":"好 謝謝陳代理主委那麼詳細的說明好 接下來請經濟部和次長跟水利署署長我想替我們永康的鄉親請命一下這次728的西南氣流帶來兩波的強降雨我們在8月2號永康下了非常大的攀坡大雨最大的時雨量來到103.5米這是"},{"start":5870.576,"end":5898.712,"text":"突破了我們策戰的歷史紀錄這一次的排水系統的排洪不及永康市區就當然出現積煙水的問題那怎麼樣處理當然我來探究就是說我們那裡有永康排水跟吳奇潭中排那永康大排的上游段還有很多的渠段沒有整治所以如果遇到短煙石牆降雨的時候就很容易水位上升所以是不是可能"},{"start":5899.332,"end":5921.693,"text":"就是說在現有的渠寬約21公尺拓寬到26公尺的治理線那不過當然永康排水的這個改善段它緊鄰中油公司中油公司的那個中心的南側那如果渠道變寬可能還涉及到中油的土地那也遭到地上物的拆除"},{"start":5922.634,"end":5936.77,"text":"那我想這個我們其實地方上市政府都已經跟中油跟相關水利署開過好幾次會議我們辦公室在跟市政府在8月1號也有去會刊那認為拓寬真的有其必要性那"},{"start":5937.551,"end":5962.302,"text":"可是這一次我能理解因為政府的財源有限所以我們這一次的特別預算是針對受災受損的硬體去修復所以排水改善沒有辦法納入這一次可是我想說永康排水確實是我們永康很重要的治水系統所以是不是想請教說拜託說中央在協助復原之餘是不是可以審酌台南市政府提出的排水系統改善計畫"},{"start":5964.463,"end":5980.874,"text":"看用什麼其他的經費來支持啦因為畢竟前瞻的治水作為會更勝於這個災損後的這個補救啦那所以是不是請這個部長次長好 跟委員報告齁那行政會已經"},{"start":5981.614,"end":6001.348,"text":"已經有通過這個下一期的治水預算四年一千億那是針對一些縣市排水系統的部分我們要來做整治那我想這個案子我們跟台南市政府也已經有初步的做了一些討論我想我們可以把它納入到下一期的這個治水的一個預算裡面好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝易經委員接著請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":6015.428,"end":6021.573,"text":"謝謝主席陽泉發言首先邀請農業部長農業部長我也好"},{"start":6030.768,"end":6046.273,"text":"部長救災跟救急一樣重要所以在第一時間本席認為這是不分藍綠白我們必須要全力的協助我們的災民全力的將這個特別條例趕快通過"},{"start":6047.473,"end":6058.407,"text":"今天終於把預算送過來所以我本家特別跟你討論在這一次的特別預算裡頭我們農業部的部分是編了203億1425萬元"},{"start":6062.972,"end":6092.152,"text":"7000元來協助我們的農民 災民中南部非常的嚴重包括花東那所以在這一次我看災損的部分超過1億以上包括了落花生 芝麻等包括了柿子也3成那麼水蜜桃也幾乎20%以上都受損所以在這樣的情況之下本行一再的也告訴行政院包括我們台中也一定要列入從沒有列入到"},{"start":6094.273,"end":6121.581,"text":"聆聽這個明末聆聽百姓的聲音終於也要列入了我也特別感謝將台中市列入在這個重建條例的這個補助範圍之內那所以本席也要跟你討論的也就是這一次的範圍非常的散播各地而且樣態都不一樣樣態都不一樣所以本席具體建議在現今救助的時候"},{"start":6122.574,"end":6128.633,"text":"以及這個復建都必須要重減重塑 對不對"},{"start":6130.054,"end":6156.528,"text":"謝謝委員我想整個這一次的災損如果從旦那茲颱風一直到我們現在的羊乳颱風全國大概是應該是43.2億左右那台中的部分最主要是羊乳颱風就像您說的羊乳颱風的損失還有其他的0728的部分豪雨損失所以我們在這一次救災的部分的時候像我想委員知道在公告的時候我們會非常及時都是用主動公告"},{"start":6157.128,"end":6185.623,"text":"然後主動公告以後我們救災加補助補助不夠再加我們的金融支持那補助的部分我們把相關的這些補助的設施從原來的五成拉到八成那這個拉到八成以後對農民的復健是有幫助的那不夠的部分我們在利息的部分也是一年免利息過去是半年從1.415的部分也免利息一年那這個部分我都會用這一些的措施本席再一次具體"},{"start":6186.764,"end":6205.499,"text":"具體來要求在整個勘災的速度必須要加速現今救助的時候也必須要加速因為他們還要復建復建的流程也必須要加速這是非常重要最後還有一點"},{"start":6206.4,"end":6230.777,"text":"因為整個樣態不一雷暴雨 地球暖化以前從來沒有想過的問題都出來的情況之下我們必須要重新去盤點在災害受傷之後我們要補助的範圍到底是什麼譬如我們的南瓜整個我們的瓜架全部流掉了全部壞掉了"},{"start":6232.998,"end":6252.908,"text":"那這個部分我們也應該要列入所以我具體要求必須要重新去盤點目前的樣態去作為你補助協助的一個重點跟項目謝謝委員提醒我們已經在做重新盤點然後必要的天然災害救助辦法我們也會調整"},{"start":6253.928,"end":6267.779,"text":"必須要重新盤點補助的項目以及天然災害救助的辦法在這一次的風災水災當中讓我們可以得到了這些學習跟教訓重新去盤點好不好你把盤點出來要給本席接下來本席想請經濟部主席經濟部 謝謝經濟部"},{"start":6281.13,"end":6294.606,"text":"這一次台電的員工真的超辛苦所以本席講了第三次了我們的高層要怎麼樣協助我們台電的人員能夠調配人力有做了嗎"},{"start":6296.171,"end":6314.501,"text":"包委員這個部分我們跟台電這邊都有一起在規劃救災人力的一個部分已經有在規劃所以我具體要求要去盤點怎麼樣去協調人力幫助在第一線因為數千支的電線搞到倒斷那這一些要怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":6318.823,"end":6328.186,"text":"人員要怎麼調配非常重要你把你們調配順便資料給本席第二個昨天本席跟卓院長討論卓院長也說將電網韌性包括特別條例跟這次災我們有300多億那我們要怎麼樣他告訴我本席說你們在評估電網地下化的一個評估"},{"start":6344.571,"end":6348.94,"text":"有沒有做是 現在正在評估中那個評估大概多久時間會出來跟委員報告那個全面地下化"},{"start":6356.8,"end":6364.425,"text":"這個命題我們會從容易自災的地方開始做就是說容易受到台風等等影響的地方兩個月兩個月的時間將全國電力電感電線地下化的評估做出來兩個月送交給本席所以本席就是希望怎麼樣除了第一線的人力調配第二個我們在災的時候我要請教"},{"start":6385.157,"end":6402.984,"text":"是不是電線地下化對我們的災的防治是有幫助的是不是跟委員報告地下化對風災來講是有幫助的是有幫助的那要全面考慮好 全面考慮所以兩個月後將報告給本席最後一個議題再30秒就好請我們的主席長我請問一個議題就好了請圍坐請主席長好"},{"start":6411.007,"end":6425.058,"text":"不是啊 熊議員你這樣子的話大家都亂掉了啊主計長 在這一次你的預備金編列30億是比以往特別預算編列好 編列你本來是0.5 1.5到最高4.8但是你是5%為什麼你的這一次的預備金編列會達到5%是創歷史新高依據是什麼"},{"start":6437.506,"end":6446.291,"text":"主席長你提書面了啦那將書面資料給本席謝謝瓊瑩委員接著請張志倫委員質詢不好意思因為今天登記的委員太多了請各位委員嚴守時間那我們的會場請大家安靜保持安靜"},{"start":6464.571,"end":6470.254,"text":"好 感謝主席有請環境部彭部長以及經濟部何次長好 經濟部環境部謝謝好 那我想先請教彭部長"},{"start":6482.369,"end":6505.126,"text":"好 彭部長就是我現在要先請教你就是有關於丹納斯颱風重創台南那強風意外揭露我們台灣的巨大挑戰環境部預估全台總共有33處暗場的光電板約13萬5000片的太陽能電板就是損壞這個數字是過去5年所有的太陽能板"},{"start":6506.707,"end":6535.601,"text":"所有廢棄的總和的2.5倍部長知道這件事情嗎知道 對現在因為現在颱風的關係早知這樣的太陽能的電板它的損壞度非常的高而且非常多的光電板有受到污染我們也看到新聞有報導尤其在嘉義非常的嚴重不僅有回收業者在現場去把這些太陽能光電板破碎或者是造成沒辦法回收的這樣的情形已經造成了環境的污染"},{"start":6536.201,"end":6563.267,"text":"那部長我是想要跟你報告一件事情我非常擔心就像我之前跟你請教的我們的光電板的問題是前端無法處理後端無法回收那很多委員都在請前面都已經請教你了有關於前端處理的部分你也公開表示說你也要求廠商在9月初的時候一定要完成處理的部分可是我現在更擔心的是後端回收的部分"},{"start":6564.187,"end":6586.293,"text":"你們有統計過現在所有這樣子的太陽能板現在總共13.5萬片現在回收業者已經有4萬片你們的說法是已處理可是我想是堆置在這些回收業場的廠辦裡面有大概6萬片是合法擱置在倉庫裡面還有3.5萬片就像剛剛我跟您報告的還無法處理當中那現在有沒有去統計"},{"start":6587.593,"end":6593.96,"text":"現在這麼多的光電板沒有辦法處理也沒辦法回收現在無法回收的量大概佔百分之多少"},{"start":6594.708,"end":6621.781,"text":"保委員第一個是說現在我們的處理量能大概是一個月可以2900噸遠大於這一次的大概是2600噸左右的量所以理論上是可以但是我們以前沒有預估說一個月去處理那麼大沒錯 所以你現在有沒有捧地說因為現在這些太陽能板跟過去的我們正常回收模式是不一樣的它要怎麼它算是運回去都非常的困難如何放到機器裡面去做這個PPC的分離"},{"start":6624.342,"end":6639.91,"text":"這樣的問題有沒有確定說有多少無法回收的比例大概是多少這個還是要能源署那邊最後那個編號的一個統計那目前我們初估來看的話大概不到5%左右大多數是可以正常那個樣子沒有被損壞但是它已經泡水了"},{"start":6640.729,"end":6658.246,"text":"因為昨天我們有別的委員在請教您就是說以太陽能板沒辦法回收大概占10%左右那你現在意思是說因為颱風而損壞而更加污染更加殘破的能源板只不到5%不能回收所以這個數字我覺得還是要"},{"start":6658.826,"end":6681.012,"text":"更清楚的來回答昨天講的是說一個太陽能板正常的進去大概是92到99%可以全回收我的問題是這個13.5萬片的太陽能板總共幾%的太陽能板的數量是無法回收的其實請你們要統計一下好不好這個我們會統計因為每一個都有編號那這些無法回收的太陽能板要如何處理第二個"},{"start":6681.812,"end":6708.219,"text":"就像您說的每個月的回收的量能因為就像我剛跟大家報告的現在都已經塞車了所以在嘉義的廠商才沒有辦法把這些太陽能板運到他們的不管是合法站置的廠或是他們的處理廠去處理所以目前量能就是堵塞的狀況所以每個月到底能實際的回收的量能是多少所以要請部長這邊來處理到底真的是多少那這個資料是否可以公開"},{"start":6709.079,"end":6732.593,"text":"因為就我們的助理現在上網去查現在的回收業者連一筆都不敢公開就表示他們現在要處理現在資源回收的量都非常的嚴重了更況是來處理這些太陽能回收板我覺得這才是最大的問題那第三個我要請教部長的是現在的監察機制到底是中央來監察還是地方來監察未來太陽能板的回收的狀況"},{"start":6733.704,"end":6748.895,"text":"回收的機制是我們跟能源署會共同來計算我們有一套系統每一個關鍵板的編號都要清清楚楚那它會照真正要回收的方式來去做還是它會就便宜形式的方法像我過去跟你請教的它會偷偷去這個把它"},{"start":6751.016,"end":6769.954,"text":"把他毀損然後交給再利用業者來處理這點你有沒有辦法來去做個嚴整的監控包委員沒有限地毀損這個事情只有限地毀損那個浮桶那我們也告訴他說這不允許的也開罰了所以基本上只有毀壞掉的等於是他必須太陽光鏈必須到這個回收場去做限地處理我要跟部長報告"},{"start":6771.495,"end":6799.003,"text":"業者會在現場直接做回損的一個狀況我先不問那個業者是誰代表他收到的SOP就是這樣子他拿到這些東西拿到回去他的回收場難道會做合格的回收的方式嗎這點我要打一個很大的問號報告委員那三十幾家的業者都OK只有一家業者是完全不合格的所以我們才會重罰他後面也會持續的重罰下去那後續也要拜託部長跟我們的經濟部這個整個的SOP要好好把它來處理一下"},{"start":6799.423,"end":6821.238,"text":"不然造成的是環境的整個的能源的問題那最後我也要想請教一下那現在這些破損的太陽能板他們的暗場未來如果這些業者再把重新再把太陽能板安裝上去的時候有沒有災害應變的計畫等等的以及如果未來還是發生災難的時候有沒有大量排除清運計畫會不會造成現在這樣子"},{"start":6822.119,"end":6847.836,"text":"就是前端無法處理後端無法回收以及如果廠商真的後來沒有辦法處理的話政府有任何的財務計劃來跟這些業者來溝通嗎好 次長是不是 次長請你書面書面來回覆張志龍委員拜託這非常重要造成台灣的污染問題謝謝主席是 謝謝再拜託一下謝謝我們接著請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":6856.39,"end":6861.389,"text":"謝謝主席我請主席長還有內政部主席長跟內政部"},{"start":6875.147,"end":6899.985,"text":"兩位部長早我想今天是丹納斯颱風的特別條例的特別預算那從7月6號肆虐南台灣然後8月15我們三讀通過特別條例這個禮拜五預計會把特別預算也通過這是因為在朝野有共識的情況下我想問一下內政部是災害防救的主管機關部長你覺得這樣的速度算快了嗎"},{"start":6901.04,"end":6922.581,"text":"如果說以我們把這個特別預算跟這個特別預算的條例送到立法院來非常謝謝立法院的委員的協助跟幫忙所以這也是這次研會最重要的任務因為剛好有這樣的狀況所以立法院的配合我相信兩個月對災民來說可能對他們來說是慢的但對我們來說制度上可能算是歷來以來最快的"},{"start":6923.101,"end":6940.414,"text":"但是主席長現在這樣的預算的流程大概就是固定以後有三單發生大概兩個月左右能夠通過特別預算就不錯了是嗎你覺得這樣的速度可以嗎不是 因為我們也盡量再趕因為我們這一次大概是也是"},{"start":6941.502,"end":6962.548,"text":"你們盡量再趕 立法院盡量再趕但是兩個月對災民來說還是辛苦的因為我們一般除了特別預算之外我們都會先用移緩季節的部分對 有災害準備金 有第二預備金不是 還有部分移緩季節還要特別統籌所以我們之前就已經有下撥100多億"},{"start":6964.409,"end":6971.381,"text":"所以我的意思是說災害防救他應該也建立一個制度化的流程所以內政部劉部長"},{"start":6972.648,"end":7002.067,"text":"其實內政部一直在討論說將來是不是要針對災害防治救助的法訂立一個專法消防署也曾經做過研究其實這是一個我剛剛講這個流程跟它的機制跟相關的剛剛主計長講的那些SOP其實它應該有一個完整的系統而不是每一次突然間來然後我們大家就在這邊罵來罵去然後變成最後弄一個特別條例出來部長你們這個研究你知道嗎在部內研究很久了"},{"start":7002.327,"end":7018.333,"text":"是報告委員我想您說的部分是災害防救在一般來講本來主要是屬於應變現在所碰到的困擾就是說在應變過後的這些復原跟重建是否速度會出問題這個是要各部會一起來配合"},{"start":7018.473,"end":7045.907,"text":"消防署在101年就做過研究我希望內政部跟各單位我覺得這個部分應該是說我們台灣天災真的很多了所以這個機制如果是對消防救災單位還有復健來說就像我們疫情我們也是碰到了那麼大的疫情才建立了非常多的制度我也希望內政部在這個基礎之上用這一次的風災做參考是不是要訂出一個比較完整的機制而不是每一次都找各部會來討論它應該已經有一個SOP"},{"start":7048.288,"end":7066.838,"text":"我剛有特別提到災害防救的第一要務當然是救人為主的應變所以我可以說如果你們曾經研究過災後重建跟防救的部分要訂立相關的法案我覺得這個流程不要研究完了的部分擺在家裡啦好不好第二個就是主席長"},{"start":7068.079,"end":7086.135,"text":"這次的預算是用特別條例來訂的然後行政院是說只需要560草野協商說太少了應該到600所以立法跟行政達成共識所以三讀立法通過這也是難得立法院要增加預算行政院同意的是嗎"},{"start":7087.521,"end":7110.256,"text":"是 因為這整個是工程會它整個在所以就是說立法院能不能夠增加不能增加預算但是立法院可以在修訂法律的時候增加相關的預算因為它制定了所謂的人事機關或業務都一定會增加預算但是我們看到行政院這一次總預算的編列非常的奇怪為什麼"},{"start":7112.037,"end":7140.118,"text":"錦銷退休所的替代率跟國軍志願役加幾三萬塊沒有編在總預算裡面因為這考慮到整個一個制度的一個問題主席長我問的是法律依法就應該編列預算國防部有沒有編過來內政部有沒有編過來有還是沒有這個部分如果有還是沒有他們有沒有編過來被誰刪掉了被你刪掉了還是被院長拍板拿掉了"},{"start":7141.95,"end":7164.73,"text":"這個部分我們就是說我們有提示你只要回答我他們有沒有依法編列預算嘛你知不知道國防部已經在外面宣傳自願役要加薪了最後被你們拿掉之後現在把廣告拉下來了這什麼國家立法院通過的法案總統公布的法律不施行然後說這是違憲行政院發言人代替大法官說這違憲"},{"start":7166.587,"end":7185.732,"text":"然後你們現在又說是因為考慮到什麼原因我只問一句國防部跟內政部有沒有依法編列預算過來主計出這邊審議有還是沒有有還是沒有他們有沒有編沒有編所以是他們兩個違法是嗎你今天要不要說實話他編了你們拿掉了就說實話"},{"start":7196.263,"end":7223.047,"text":"是你們拿掉的還是不准他們編這個很難回答嗎主計長這個本身是有決定說暫時不編所以決定不再編所以他們連編都沒有編我今天要講的是一套標準就好才化法一樣照編錦銷不編一個行政院兩種做法我實在看不懂啊依法行政你是主計長我希望你說到做到依法行政"},{"start":7224.568,"end":7229.471,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝珊珊委員接著請鄭政權委員質詢謝謝主席我想先請一下我們環境部然後我們內政部跟我們經濟部經濟部 內政部還有環境部"},{"start":7255.465,"end":7271.315,"text":"委員好先請環境部謝謝委員好謝主席今天安排了一個丹納斯颱風跟728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案的一個備詢我想說在這一次的丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨之後不僅帶來一個災情"},{"start":7274.217,"end":7288.91,"text":"我特別注意到了一件事情因為在很多新聞資料當中看到了實棉建材的問題嚴重的浮現出來因為實棉建材實棉在1977年就被國際認為是一級致癌物部長一定知道這個狀態"},{"start":7290.411,"end":7305.316,"text":"我們在這一次看到這災情當中的時候好多好多的災民跟清潔人員他們用徒手在搬運破碎的石棉瓦甚至於有很多車子就碾過了一個破碎的石棉瓦"},{"start":7305.876,"end":7332.641,"text":"那實棉的一個纖維就是到處在那個粉塵到處在竄那我想請教一下因為在這一次這600億的一個特別預算當中的時候就是環境部有特別編列7億坦白說在600裡面的7億其實不算多可是他很精準的放在實棉建材廢棄物清運的作業這個部分我想請問一下部長現在實棉"},{"start":7335.342,"end":7353.793,"text":"建材這件事情你認為是一個這是災後碰到的一個問題還是是一個整個公衛的一個問題好 謝謝委員第一個是石棉要破損了才要馬上清運如果沒有破損等到整個要改建的時候再把它移除掉就可以了"},{"start":7354.173,"end":7375.088,"text":"所以我們這種所謂的正常的排除是我們每年大概有兩到三億的預算來補助給地方來做這個事情那這次是因為大規模的這個有一萬五千噸所以我們要處理這個破損的已經破損的量所以這個七億多事實上還有我們有爭取別的預算所以目前每年有兩億多是在環境部這一邊來協助做這樣的一個處理對不對補助給地方 對"},{"start":7378.49,"end":7401.969,"text":"好 我想另外先問下一個問題因為你這邊的時候我看環境部的資料這邊有特別提到全台10萬瓦的建物總共高達24萬全台到處都有24萬多棟你們這部分是怎麼統計出來的這個是用衛星謠測然後繁衍出來 推算出來的衛星謠測出來的嘛 對不對所以可能是一般的"},{"start":7403.07,"end":7425.764,"text":"住宅對不對也可能是農舍還有企業企業對不對那可能搞不好文化部他們可能有一些歷史建築可能也都包含在裡頭然後可能包括了我們教育部體系下面有很多學校也都會有對不對對OK好那針對這個部分我想請教一下內政部部長"},{"start":7427.705,"end":7438.487,"text":"就是我們目前是不是有可能針對這些建物來做一個汰換實棉建材這樣的一個特別的一個補助會不會有"},{"start":7439.46,"end":7468.439,"text":"這次的特別預算裡面並沒有編列因為我們所編列的部分是根據風災受損的這些家屋所以說我們內政部這邊編列的部分基本上都沒有針對石棉瓦這邊因為它是根據風災條例所以我在這邊的時候也想藉由這個機會的時候特別提出來這件事情就是說整個石棉建材這部分的時候因為它什麼時候會破碎不曉得一個風災來就會碰到像這一次坦白說整個台南高雄"},{"start":7469.5,"end":7485.455,"text":"沿海地區的時候石棉建材的廢棄物據說有好幾萬噸然後我們現在能夠一萬五千噸一萬五千噸嘛能夠處理的量其實很有限大概有七成都還沒有辦法處理包委員大概清了一半左右"},{"start":7485.555,"end":7515.024,"text":"能量的部分所以我們希望藉由這狀態的時候能夠先未雨綢繆把這相關的事情希望我們內政部這邊其實能夠針對這些實棉建材的部分能夠好好去處理然後經濟部這邊的時候因為我們很多有一些節能補助的一些狀態那我們也希望對於整個就是實棉屋頂的一個汰換的時候能夠有一個更積極的方式去做一個有效的一個因應有沒有辦法"},{"start":7515.464,"end":7543.738,"text":"可以 我們目前是有針對一些節能的這些設施可以來補助給企業好 那這部分就是因為我在想說這一次的風災當中的時候我們看到實棉這個問題它可能變成一個災害一般的災害變成一個整個社會的一個公衛的問題所以我們希望環境部跟我們經濟部 內政部這邊的時候可以好好去處理然後也希望有相關的一個單位也都能夠一起去"},{"start":7544.678,"end":7564.575,"text":"關注到你們主管的一個建物包括跟學生非常有關的一個教育部這邊的時候我們都希望能夠好好的去把這個實棉建築的問題把它解決掉好不好謝謝好 謝謝鄭委員接著請張琦開委員質詢"},{"start":7588.242,"end":7614.811,"text":"請主席 請主席 經濟部次長還有環境部部長好 主席總長還有次長還有環境部部長委員好這一次大家不分朝野大家都同心同意這邊的這個重建特別預算我們本來從行政院的五百六已經增加掉六百億了所以拜託一下各個部會在幫忙包括農委會 農業部"},{"start":7616.881,"end":7638.638,"text":"幫我們農民幫我們中小企業的時候要從寬從幼這一次台灣民眾黨有提了一個很重要的附帶決議等一下我要特別談就是什麼要去加碼去幫助我們的災民這一次整個條例跟特別預算台灣民眾黨提出四大主張加速重建"},{"start":7639.659,"end":7655.692,"text":"加碼補助另外嚴禁挪用經費就一定是要專款專用不要再出現防偽責條款防偽責那個整個挪用治水的這個預算還有要公開透明監督那我們現在談一個最重要的災民最注意的就是"},{"start":7656.86,"end":7672.646,"text":"要怎麼去加碼補助所以這次本來台灣民眾黨是有提了條文後來經過朝野協商 黨團協商我們明確的要求對於淹水戶淹水超過50公分以上的"},{"start":7674.09,"end":7700.112,"text":"第一個 不要受到一個門牌一戶的限制這個大家有共識嘛 對不對因為在南部像阿卡 嘉義 台南就只能三合院耶一個門牌裡面有好幾戶那我們排除就是一個門牌裡面有好幾戶我們全部都補助這是第一個 對不對第二個 我們要求依照本條例加碼補助每一戶加碼兩萬塊錢如果中低收入戶跟低收入戶加碼變成三萬塊錢這是經過朝野協商"},{"start":7703.927,"end":7710.933,"text":"黨團三長都簽字了行政院也簽字了所以我今天要求明確一定要落實好不好我看這邊的議帳裡面有編了3億嘛"},{"start":7713.598,"end":7742.227,"text":"對不對 用每戶兩萬塊錢去計算這三億的錢我相信大家朝野都會通過這筆錢沒有問題啦我剛講的已經從五百六加了四十億在那邊順便再加碼我們這個附帶決議裡面提了一個非常重要的就是依照原來的法規水災災害救助總列級標準的第七條地方政府可以補助五千到兩萬各個地方政府都補對不對"},{"start":7743.547,"end":7754.203,"text":"我看你們後來又宣布你們行政要加碼兩萬塊錢我要特別強調喔我們這個附帶結議是大家朝委同意的喔行政院也承諾喔依照本條例"},{"start":7755.935,"end":7776.348,"text":"這三令一定要發到每個人手上去好不好跟委員報告一定要貫徹先生加碼那兩萬塊大概就是按照我們那個立法院的那個決議我們來執行那所以這個部分我想我們也都有考慮到這個除了地方的補助以外中央我們再加碼兩萬塊的這個補助所以是不是可以讓"},{"start":7777.588,"end":7804.34,"text":"讓委員了解一下就是說行政院其實已經有透過很多的一些措施照顧不管是淹水補助也好或是說住宅的修復也好都有很多的一些補助的項目所以是不是可以懇請委員第一地方已經都補助各個縣市政府都有都有補助那現在就是依照今天編的過了這3億我們非常明確依照本條例要趕快發下去"},{"start":7805,"end":7806.726,"text":"好不好那你們之前有講到你們要加碼"},{"start":7808.351,"end":7835.909,"text":"我們重寬重優啊你們要再加兩萬塊OK這個我們多多益善要重優重寬可是最重要我今天要強調的依照台灣民眾黨提案的負債節這兩萬塊錢一定要花下去然後是中低收支付要三萬塊喔好不好一定要做到重優重寬一定要做到不過跟委員報告啦就是我們這一次的加碼大概就是按照就是這樣的一個決議來執行啦就是你們那大概什麼時候可以花到我們受災戶的這個手上"},{"start":7837.795,"end":7858.74,"text":"我想我們會盡快把這個經費撥給如果這邊通過的話我們就會盡快撥給地方政府那這個一定要做到好不好加碼補助債務這個拜託一定要做到高我們要求這每一分錢民脂民膏一定要專款專用所以我們訂了黃偉哲條款因為之前你中央給台南市的"},{"start":7860.001,"end":7878.602,"text":"審計部說有些地下下水道的錢清淤的 九千多萬被遺用了所以我們訂了第五條的第五項要求中央這次補助地方執行機關的經費依照補助的目的跟項目支出一定不能移為太陽這一定要非常堅持 好不好另外我們要求"},{"start":7879.443,"end":7900.078,"text":"各個相關機關你在這個條例通過的兩個月內整個復健的重建計畫趕快拿出來好不好然後呢每一季執行的狀況執行的進度要送到立法院來備查另外呢要設一個網站資訊的網站每個要公開進度讓前面可以公開透明可以看得到好不好好 謝謝另外呢"},{"start":7901.974,"end":7906.121,"text":"我問環境部長好不好 抱歉我借20秒借20秒 那個20秒我加上光電板 我發現有兩個很嚴重的問題第一個 現在還有兩個那個製風紙下面的"},{"start":7915.216,"end":7931.733,"text":"旁邊他在第一個他在旁邊就把那個湖板把它碎掉那個塑膠圍裏那個整個滿天飛那個已經被我們要求已經撤掉因為他自己去裝的違法的他已經沒有在那邊了不能再碎了我們有發現有提醒他警告他們"},{"start":7933.983,"end":7962.029,"text":"絕對不能在那邊再睡了絕對沒有 絕對沒有第二個現在他本來兩個自捧池啊結果你們在罰錢他說什麼你們要求把他放在同一個地方他自己 他自己製作主張他被罰另外一個300萬他自己做的我們沒有要求他他應該加速處理啊 對不對怎麼是把兩個地方集中到一個地方委員 那家已經被我們罰得很厲害了而且他們現在也提出一個這個清理計畫書他希望9月5號以前那我們要求他我們再來審他的計畫書當中"},{"start":7963.149,"end":7964.25,"text":"計劃書趕快審 然後加速這個兩個重點啦加速趕快處理這個分在屋簷好不好對 這一定我們會鐵定處理好 謝謝 謝謝接著請林俊憲委員質詢"},{"start":7990.444,"end":7992.868,"text":"好感謝主席 本席邀請我們農業部陳部長農業部陳部長"},{"start":8005.476,"end":8019.282,"text":"我也好 部長好部長 我今天要跟部長提議像我們的農業補助過去我們在補助那種溫暖室多少都要補助五成但是這邊我們農業部我肯定也感謝我們農業部部長這邊決定可以補助到八成對農民溫暖室的損害這種農業設施補助到八成"},{"start":8032.827,"end":8058.017,"text":"過去都五成 現在才八成可見這次的傷害非同小可我舉這個例子就是蘭花台南是蘭花的重要的生產基地新聞也有報導我們配合一個蘭花農一開兩千萬去蓋這個溫王室而且是以我們農業部的一種叫利霸型的溫室"},{"start":8059.073,"end":8063.981,"text":"這所謂 這種溫室就是說用H型鋼支撐啦 直接用就對了啦 簡單講啦結果這邊風胎 瘦了我整個胖子"},{"start":8072.199,"end":8101.361,"text":"它最嚴重的是它連那個鋼架都斷了所以崩了之後 一些花苗人花苗都掉了但是我們這種所謂力霸型的溫室按照農委會給的那個圖是可以抗到十二級風十三級風 都可以抵抗十三級風那這邊 我看最高也差不多十二十三級"},{"start":8102.301,"end":8107.766,"text":"那是陣風啦 那是突然間的陣風啦但是不應該當意啦所以後來啦 業者委託結構技師來檢查啦這樣說 溫室設計出了問題啦他就說 你焊接啦 燃料不確實啦"},{"start":8123.789,"end":8134.461,"text":"所以到農糧署的統計好像到7月這個數字可能會更高我們的農業設施損害是將近1億元 設備啦 設備啦基礎我們這個溫網室水瓶的棚架這個塑膠布的溫網室"},{"start":8144.736,"end":8151.242,"text":"這太爛了所以農業部這一次才特別大概有史以來補助農業設施層數最高的補助到八成"},{"start":8154.229,"end":8175.176,"text":"但是我跟部長 部長你知道嗎我們對2017年開始 農業部就有辦那個所謂智能防災設施型的農業計畫 你知道嗎我知道 了解我們這個計劃要做什麼 按照農業部的公告這個計劃就是要扶著農民去那個結構加強型的溫暖式設施"},{"start":8180.218,"end":8190.821,"text":"來提升防災生產效能從2017年到現在結果在今年2025年風災啊來驚艷啦 整個倒掉掉啦到底是颱風太強還是我們的計畫我們起的東西給我們的不堪一擊我認為都要不然做一個檢討啦"},{"start":8203.325,"end":8217.611,"text":"尤其農民施作我們農業部有提供參考的圖樣給農民農民說你叫我這樣去你還可以抵抗到幾級的風可以抗災到什麼程度"},{"start":8218.618,"end":8243.079,"text":"那結果呢 很顯然啦 完全失敗啦 我可以這麼講啦那我想有幾個原因啦 因為這種農業設施喔 施作過程喔它不需要結構計時的簽證 因為我們想要提升效率啦 我們是這樣講啦所以跟一般去民宅不一樣啦 我們民宅清潔下去"},{"start":8245.421,"end":8265.129,"text":"結構計算那全部都有專人負責有專業的在旁邊簽證認定但是我們這些都沒有啦如果這樣醫療面子來改善這個部分不然我們現在你再補足要起起來我們現在補助到八成喔那現在是做新的有沒有辦法達到"},{"start":8267.004,"end":8283.432,"text":"農業部的目標就是你從2017年開始推動了提高抗災的農業設施來 我想問一下第一點就是說我們提供的那個八種已經有一些設計圖的部分可以免建築師簽證"},{"start":8284.853,"end":8310.286,"text":"那這樣子的一個結構那時候已經讓很多建築工會那邊去確認過是沒問題的所以這樣的話就是能夠加快這個有時候農民的負擔那現在一個問題就是施工者有沒有照這個規範去施工那這個我們也發現所以我們現在做全面的盤點就是說我們過去補助的一些部分我們去看他到底有沒有照這個方式施工"},{"start":8310.746,"end":8322.814,"text":"對 你要保護農民因為農民他也不慢我叫你去 我告訴你你有沒有按圖施工而且蓋完以後也沒有第三方的審驗認證所以你現在去的看起來像是"},{"start":8325.414,"end":8350.61,"text":"有標準沒標準也不知道啦那就放開來 再拍這樣你英文也補助不了了解這個部分 這個漏洞是不是希望農業部能夠把它會 我剛才說的我們會全面的啟動這個輔導團裡面去針對倒掉的部分去確認然後後面加一些蓋好以後可以由我們的設施協會跟我們的輔導團隊去確認是不是有也沒有照這個原來的規範去施這個部分我想我們會加強努力好 謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":8355.261,"end":8375.933,"text":"謝謝金縣委員 接著請仲嘉斌委員質詢那在那個李昆澤委員那個質詢完畢那我們休息那個五分鐘好 謝謝主席主席 再讓委員先進烈士縣中央商務官員會場工作夥伴記者梅迪女士先生有請陳部長 農業部陳部長跟農糧署署長好 農業部部長還有農糧署署長然後漁業署的陳副長好 漁業署署長"},{"start":8387.114,"end":8402.951,"text":"徐副主席要嗎 不用 不用部長好 那麼是姚署長還有陳副署長好來 部長 我就承繼林俊賢委員的之前我跟您多次請益 也建議說以這一次"},{"start":8403.631,"end":8427.502,"text":"雲嘉南高坪我們溫網市的設施農業受到風災豪雨的巨大的損害那麼農民前次借貸投資資金溫網市還沒有還清雖然政府補助50%但是現在血本無歸現在不只是損失他的政府的補助也損失了因為我問過這些過去政府補助的溫網市有沒有強制保災害保險 產物保險"},{"start":8429.612,"end":8438.224,"text":"有没有强制没有嘛所以不止业者损失政府也损失啊你补助他一千万对不对"},{"start":8439.141,"end":8464.094,"text":"他全部兩千萬損失一千萬他的一千萬政府的所以這一個農民接受政府補助的農業設施你們要考慮到有一定門檻金額以上的可能要要求他一定要有一個產物保險可以嗎可以 我們可以來設計那麼現在我們剛剛那個林縣委員也問到的我們題目是一模一樣我本來是希望說未來我們可以用什麼以租換貸"},{"start":8465.895,"end":8482.343,"text":"說你不要去貸款買政府不是補助你政府是補助你租金你去用租的但是租一開始會有很大的問題因為每個人的地都不一樣大小作物內容不同溫往事他喜歡定制化對不對我們看一下定制化的溫往事來現在剛剛講到的智能防災設施"},{"start":8486.37,"end":8511.285,"text":"這個有加強型水平網有簡易型塑膠布有結構型的這個鋼骨的那麼分別是125到162450到580900到1100等等等等請問一下這一次有沒有統計過哪一種類型損害的最嚴重比如說加強型的本來有五成簡易型的有三成鋼骨的有兩成結果受損比例"},{"start":8512.216,"end":8540.804,"text":"哪一個最嚴重 有沒有做過統計我們沒有很詳細的統計但是以簡易式的塑膠布文網是受損是最嚴重的所以證明說結構性鋼骨的應該比較耐厚性跟抗災性對不對相對來講相對來講嘛 好但是剛剛委員問到了 往下看你們一共有八種的款式你們說因為這八種的款式就不用再另外簽證因為都經過結構機制的評估但是你剛才也說了到底施工有沒有照圖施工有沒有第三方認證"},{"start":8542.352,"end":8561.68,"text":"有沒有辦法說要投給你啊我們幫你補助你做好了我們去看有這個企業走嗎 有沒有我們現在是沒有但後續我們會檢討來改進就是說因為政府補助的部分我們應該有一個第三方對 要一個機制 第三方驗證價還有你們現在提供這八種是參考因為買車跟租車你覺得買車的選擇多還是租車的選擇多"},{"start":8566.005,"end":8574.417,"text":"買車的選擇多啦 我要檢配要標配我要什麼配 我上面要有音響 要有倒車雷達 要有衛星導航我都可以決定但是做什麼東西 做你的東西就夠點寬鬆對不對"},{"start":8576.482,"end":8603.257,"text":"是不是這樣子所以其實以租車公司為例租車的品質 款式 規格它好管理但是如果你買車的每個人揮揮鳥鳥 很多款所以這個就是一個問題如果未來我們要讓這樣的溫王式的投資設施這種的補助有效果其實你開發租賃業你反而可以提供固定系統化 規格化 標準化耐耗性 品質一致的他自己做的你一間一間的鹹 你也不會拿"},{"start":8605.196,"end":8621.405,"text":"部長可不可以考慮這個方向去做我想這是一個很好的方向就是針對後續我們在推我也認同以租代購這個方式是要推的那現在正在規劃那未來這個部分可以把一些模組化的這些溫室"},{"start":8623.286,"end":8644.982,"text":"因為你用出租的模組化的你就好控制品質嘛對不對他每次要打 你要關台怎麼打有困難往下一個趕快進行我上次在院會的時候請教您跟院長農地能否裝置農業土能設施你說45公尺平方以下就可以對不對這是錯的我告訴你什麼原因45公尺以下是免申請建築執照免建造是45公尺"},{"start":8645.422,"end":8664.753,"text":"但是綠能設施在27條什麼是綠能設施28條第一項屋頂型的綠能設施現在農業設施農業使用只有屋頂型的綠能設施是不受限制的其他的只有電感跟配電箱而已有沒有辦法儲能設施沒有啦 所以網站請看目前養殖業有對不對"},{"start":8666.095,"end":8682.669,"text":"是不是養殖業有就是餘電共生有啊對本來的沒有農業式農業去使用沒有但是你們特別試辦了農業養殖鼓勵養殖漁民自用自發對不對對那有沒有其他非養殖業的農業示範型的儲能設施的補助計畫現在是沒有"},{"start":8684.064,"end":8710.036,"text":"來有啦現在就是現在什麼時候展開有嘛1月2年嘛從114年12月30號為止就有了嘛包括示範型的儲能設施嘛漁業的部分漁業的用那其他的非漁業的部分什麼時候開始辦我想我們會來比照因為從這一次的斷電的系統那除了養殖漁業需要電源以外其他的很多農糧特別是有冷凍庫冷藏的部分也必須要有這樣的設備可不可以給本席一個時間大概什麼時候可以把這樣的東西訂出來就這兩個題目"},{"start":8714.982,"end":8727.126,"text":"給個時間吧3個月年底之前年底之前好謝謝好謝謝部長部長英明接著我們請羅廷惟委員質詢好謝謝"},{"start":8740.851,"end":8757.005,"text":"有請NCC陳代理主委經濟部何次長環境部彭部長交通部陳部長有請主席交通部 NCC還有我們經濟部環境部好"},{"start":8769.738,"end":8790.5,"text":"天災雖然難以避免但一連串的施政有疏失卻足以放大整個災害的傷害2021年8月我們看到蘇貞昌前院長在彰化縣方院特別視察淹水的災情的時候他有提到提公杯就公杯"},{"start":8791.926,"end":8814.162,"text":"如果能做到的好就不會有淹水做不好就會淹水不知道部會各個長官認同嗎這些年來也有編列特別預算就以最近蔡英文前總統的前瞻計畫裡面的一個水環境來說也說要因應極端的氣候"},{"start":8815.663,"end":8844.903,"text":"所以要編列特別預算 防治 因應但是一下雨就會崩 一下雨就會塌 一下雨就會淹水反應的我覺得不是提供不公平 而是施政不力請問這些年來這些錢用在哪裡幾億元白花花的鈔票 人民辛苦的血汗錢國人希望執政團隊可以好好的做事把國人安居樂業放在第一首選"},{"start":8846.203,"end":8868.597,"text":"我們看到到底NCC對於這一次台灣既然有地方變成資訊孤島丹納斯的颱風對中南部的影響不小這次的特別預算編列針對受災各個復原以及重建的需求涵蓋各部會限制實際我們每一個"},{"start":8869.857,"end":8890.167,"text":"縣市的需要各地方政府實際獲配的一個補助經費希望中央政府可以在這一面上要做到不應該有藍綠之分但針對這一次風災的檢討還是有一些問題想要請教通訊系統的防救災關鍵命脈"},{"start":8893.468,"end":8909.793,"text":"風災期間嘉南地區的通訊設備毀損部分地區長時間的斷訊請問目前市化 寬頻 基地台都已經完成修復了嗎請問信息是 各位報告"},{"start":8911.634,"end":8939.85,"text":"市化部分目前剩下43戶43戶原因是因為有些受災戶的房屋在整修所以中華電信配合屋主的一些期程所以延後去修復行動的部分記憶台的涵蓋7月底已經有但是有些是因為用臨時工法來替代這個鐵塔倒下去的部分所以涵蓋都有回到災前但是"},{"start":8940.37,"end":8946.024,"text":"品質會比在以前稍微遜色但是業者會有用行動車來補它的信號強度"},{"start":8949.417,"end":8972.376,"text":"好 希望不要有黑數只有43戶我們希望持續再加緊把關在災情的時間如果居民通訊上無法保持基本暢通對於國家重要的即時的資訊氣象的資訊 生活的訊息我認為重要訊息都會完全無法掌握這個對我們所有的居民都有非常大的衝擊所以"},{"start":8973.777,"end":8988.117,"text":"我們後續還有物資的調度 急難的調度嚴重的都會有這些受阻所以請問當通訊中斷的時候政府要怎麼樣能夠確保能夠將必要的資訊加以擴散這些即時的資訊"},{"start":8989.676,"end":9011.863,"text":"NCC有沒有想法跟委員報告政府的通訊如果目前三大業者是商用通訊政府救災單位本身也有專用電信他們是獨立的系統變成是多軌多元的所以通訊的以政府救災單位或者指揮體系的單位他們還有另外有一個專用電信系統另外"},{"start":9012.443,"end":9030.545,"text":"那多用電信系統或者商用都有一些衛星大疙瘩或者衛星的一些傳輸它的韌性是相對比較好只是它的頻寬比較低來了 戴主委是這樣子我覺得不只是災後復原我們未來要提升整體的通訊抗災能力達到通訊的韌性"},{"start":9032.507,"end":9046.18,"text":"這個部分我們希望NCC應該要有所在這一次整體大檢討通訊不中斷是防災最基本的一個要求另外我想問一下我們現在風災許多風電設施因為擋不住颱風造成設施災損"},{"start":9049.983,"end":9061.156,"text":"屏東 加東離岸的太陽光電設施嘉義新溫 智鴻池的光電板整個颱風掀翻等等問題環境部說災損總計33個暗場當初這些光電設施在整個設置的時候有沒有 並沒有做環評當初免環評的考量是什麼 請問一下"},{"start":9072.302,"end":9088.457,"text":"環境部可以回答嗎 報告委員當時的那個法規是這種水面上的還沒有辦法有環評但是我們現在新的今年通過的是完全都有環評的來 那現在要不要針對這些光電廠做一個事後補救的總體檢目前正在進行當中多久會完成總體檢這個要請經濟部"},{"start":9093.661,"end":9114.031,"text":"跟委員報告隨便行的部分我們已經檢查過了我們會盡快現在新設的案場全部都要有一些規範對不對這個我就不說但是過往的我認為一定要總體檢風災損壞光電板 清除拖延環境部開罰900萬廠商如果繼續不作為態度消極那要怎麼辦有沒有更高強度的手段"},{"start":9114.851,"end":9124.754,"text":"罰不罷怎麼辦有委員 這個會我們代位求償這個絕對沒有問題的積極一點喔像國人都在看我們非常積極 委員 報告委員非常積極謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝庭委那接著請李昆哲委員質詢"},{"start":9138.491,"end":9154.744,"text":"謝謝賴會員召委我們請一下經濟部和次長台電曾文森董事長是經濟部還有台電曾文森董事長好次長以及曾董事長這一次丹納斯颱風對於民眾的生活"},{"start":9155.764,"end":9171.949,"text":"造成很大的災情跟衝擊我們看雲嘉南地區整個電線桿是倒了3000支以上造成90萬戶以上的民眾他們的電力供應中斷"},{"start":9174.191,"end":9199.389,"text":"現在我們這個電力中斷不只是停電也會造成停水因為自來水廠以及一般的大樓公寓等等的抽水機沒電就沒辦法抽水就會造成停水也會造成電信跟網路的中斷因為很多基地台也需要電力的相關的運作所以這對民眾的生活"},{"start":9200.35,"end":9214.598,"text":"是衝擊非常的大那這一次我們編列了一百零二億的經費要做這個電線桿的地下化期程大約是兩年啦當然這個電線桿的地下化"},{"start":9215.578,"end":9238.108,"text":"對於防止風災的這個衝擊是有降低以及相關的一種作用但是因為我過去年輕的時候也在電氣行工作三年多也對這種電力的配置也略懂略懂那我要請教曾董事長像這樣的"},{"start":9239.758,"end":9243.219,"text":"地下化我們還是有幾個問題要處理像你變壓器的設置你日後的維護管理相關的流程要怎麼去做處理以及你的故障的時候你的故障點也比較難處理這個我們都有相關的資源跟配置另外就是排水的問題"},{"start":9262.825,"end":9282.523,"text":"因為你在低窪地區容易淹水的時候我們相關的台電面對這樣的一個處置我們必須要有資源要有人力要有相關的維護管理的流程來做這樣的一個電線桿地下化的這樣的一個前提的作業來 董事長說明一下"},{"start":9284.338,"end":9312.892,"text":"報告委員您剛才講的那個方向其實大的方向都對我們總經理正好是這個方面的專業我可不可以讓總經理給您回答總經理來說明一下報告委員地下化是我們整個在電網韌性計畫裡面的其中的一種解決方案也就是說當我地下化的時候可以減少風災造成的一個傷害但是相對它也有它的一些缺點的部分就是您提到的"},{"start":9313.692,"end":9342.791,"text":"一旦地下化之後人口裡面其實會積水那積水的話當我要需要處置的時候人口裡面有些直路街頭等等都需要抽水抽完水以後才能去處理所以一旦當地如果發生那個淹水的狀況的話地下化反而是造成我復舊的重大的時間的延遲這是它的缺點的部分因此我們在做地下化的地方的選擇還有在就是微運的時候都要特別考量"},{"start":9345.112,"end":9372.26,"text":"對 現在電信桿地下化它的確是對於防止風災的衝擊有明顯的幫助但是我剛才提到幾個問題我們台電在面對的時候有做怎樣的一個規劃跟處理嗎來簡單說明一下所以我們在做地下化考量就是第一個就是技術上技術上我要下地第二個就是不能淹水的地區淹水的地區我們絕對不會做地下化的考量"},{"start":9372.5,"end":9388.768,"text":"相關的故障點也比較難去處理的時候這個我們有相關的這種智慧化的科技或是怎樣的處理嗎我們有一些措施但是不是很有效益就是"},{"start":9389.928,"end":9410.855,"text":"做那些因為這是102億的工程的一個預算那我們在做相關的地下化的時候必須的明確面對相關的議題去做及早的因應相關人力資源以及相關的維護管理修復的這樣一個流程必須要明確這是我們必須要注意的那我們對於剛才這種"},{"start":9413.621,"end":9425.297,"text":"電線桿的低效化它只是強化輸配電系統韌性的一種作為之一那我們還有其他的我們像超高壓跟一次變電所我們的利用率超過70%的超過30處"},{"start":9429.463,"end":9449.795,"text":"超過可靠容量的有87處二次變電所超過可靠容量的有97處全國超過可靠容量的總計達到184處那超過裝置而定的容量有超過11處我們商民區有一個變電所是全國超過最高的108"},{"start":9452.257,"end":9464.29,"text":"這個來我們要怎麼去加強它的韌性所以委員真的是專家您提的這個重點就是我們在做韌性計畫的時候要處理的就是我們不是在接著下來有個200億的韌性計畫嗎"},{"start":9466.873,"end":9485.438,"text":"涼培熱蒸氣的話你事實上就在處理這一塊包括微電網的一個委屋也都是其中的一環這個請台電要加強因為一旦停電不只停電也停水通訊網路也都會中斷所以台電非常辛苦責任也非常重大是 我們會針對不同的情境會有不同的解決方案來處置好 謝謝 謝謝坤澤"},{"start":9490.761,"end":9503.259,"text":"主席在這裡宣布我們休息十分鐘然後中午我們繼續開會用餐就是在這個議場上我們就開放用餐秀芳委員 不好意思休息"},{"start":9526.067,"end":9535.589,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10196.834,"end":10207.597,"text":"好 接下來我們繼續開會那是不是請我們所有的官員先回座位坐好接下來我們要繼續開會了好 那我們接下來請黃秀芳委員"},{"start":10216.667,"end":10219.83,"text":"謝謝主席那我們先請經濟部市長我們請經濟部市長"},{"start":10234.349,"end":10259.52,"text":"委員好市長好市長這一次的風災不論是颱風剛經過造成南部地區的一些損失在隔天可能是中部地區彰化台中這邊也是淹水非常的嚴重是因為西南氣流的關係然後淹水非常的嚴重我想請教就是說其實不論是在我們台電"},{"start":10262.722,"end":10286.853,"text":"這個電網的部分我記得在2016年9月那一次的梅姬颱風整個彰化的沿海的鄉鎮一公里裡面就斷了21支的電桿那當時行政院這邊也有下鄉去看也有提到就是說未來我們在這個西南"},{"start":10287.273,"end":10312.146,"text":"就是我們彰化的這個西南角的這個部分未來就是說電線桿要地下化那我看到這一次的我們這個特別預算裡面也有特別針對就是我們的電線桿電纜地下化的這個部分也有提出來102億然後兩年內要完成的部分那我想請教就是說未來"},{"start":10313.206,"end":10329.782,"text":"是不是只要針對西部地區的這些縣市電線桿地下化未來是我們的目標像彰化的部分我覺得應該也要特別去重視因為"},{"start":10331.723,"end":10357.265,"text":"每一次颱風來如果是從西部上來的話真的都會非常的嚴重我記得那一次的停電停了十幾天我們彰化沿海地區很多都是養殖馬達沒辦法運作就會造成很大的漁業上的很大的損失我是不是可以請次長針對這部分你是不是先回應一下"},{"start":10358.451,"end":10381.851,"text":"跟委員報告 卓院長已經有指示台電針對電纜地下化的部分他們要提出一個評估報告剛剛曾董事長也提到說他們兩個月之內就會提出評估報告我想電纜地下化確實是未來我們台電在增加電網真的是一個很重要的方向"},{"start":10383.052,"end":10403.178,"text":"但是它也會涉及到哪些地區適合地下化哪些不適合我想在評估報告裡面我們都會提出來另外就是說其實你們有提到兩年的部分其實台電的工班或者是你們委外有辦法在這兩年內去完成嗎這個是我質疑的地方"},{"start":10403.803,"end":10425.845,"text":"報告委員你問到很內行的問題就是說確實就是這個工程非常的龐大因為我們的工班其實都有很多原來就已經規劃好的工作要執行那但是他遇到這一次特殊的狀況我們在思考有什麼方法就在工程的程序上面都能夠比較迅速而且簡化那也跟委員報告"},{"start":10427.467,"end":10436.774,"text":"我們這次挑選的主要是公路就是交通部所主管的過去叫做省道就是台17台19等等的線路我們會去請求交通部的一些協助讓我們在路權路政上面等等能夠有比較同步的做一些同時開發的工作然後把一個工程做比較妥善的發包如果沒有辦法做一個完整的規劃跟同時工作的話其實時間上是非常非常緊迫的"},{"start":10455.41,"end":10468.82,"text":"其實就目前台電本身你們所有的這個工程你們都已經讓這個地方的民眾如果他們有申請要接電什麼之類的這個工程可能他們都會覺得說台電的動作都很慢了"},{"start":10469.956,"end":10491.568,"text":"那如果你又额外增加这些工作那你们是不是也要针对工班的部分是不是也要人力的部分也要增加所以刚才跟您提到就是发包的部分因为它有两个部分一个部分是土建另外一个部分是电器那土建的部分是不是能够有一些人力的增加那我们会一起来思考"},{"start":10492.148,"end":10519.24,"text":"是 好 我希望就是說這個當然跟你們目前既有的這些工程民眾申請的這些工程你們不要說因為做這個然後就把另外的原本既有的這些民眾申請的這些案件然後就會延遲我不希望這樣子因為也造成我們的困擾你知道嗎委員因為我們需要找我們需要找一些其他部會真的是在院裡面做一次安排跟協助因為"},{"start":10520.64,"end":10548.149,"text":"這裡會增加非常多土建的一些相關的工作那我們能不能夠有一個計畫性的來有移工等等來協助這一個部分其實我們一開始在講這個工作的時候就已經設想到就盡量不要排擠到我們既有的工程好 謝謝那我再請教次長到了對 我們只有五分鐘因為今天要省運算所以時間我們大家抓緊一點好 謝謝紅袖分委員"},{"start":10566.84,"end":10579.711,"text":"好謝謝再來我們請李坤成委員謝謝主席我們請這個工程會的陳主委還有這個NCC的這個陳代理主委好請兩位主委"},{"start":10587.354,"end":10601.645,"text":"主委好兩位主委好我先請教一下工程會主委我有看到這一個報導就是說現在NCC這一次提出2.95億的預算但是行政院在25號開會的時候認為說"},{"start":10605.167,"end":10625.084,"text":"補助有線電視系統還有電信業者的修復通訊設施但是他們的復原速度不如預期加上NCC也未能說明費用的估算方式還有後續的改善措施被行政院要求要補件在提出具體計畫之前暫緩核定請問一下主委有沒有這件事情"},{"start":10627.664,"end":10653.704,"text":"這個是內部會議只是要求三家電信業者提出比較詳盡的災損的過程他們修復的進度跟未來的計畫並沒有說不核定這件事情我看主委還講說這些民間業者應該是要罰款而不是來補助是不是主委現在還是維持這個態度"},{"start":10657.002,"end":10680.61,"text":"的確是修復的太慢了因為我們幾次在災區去看看不出這三家電信列車包括中華電信 包括台科大 包括遠傳好像沒有看到什麼積極的態度在修繕主委 你是在前進指揮所你在第一線 所以你看得最清楚你看得也比我清楚但是我認同你的想法我又認同你的意見"},{"start":10682.038,"end":10691.14,"text":"這些電信業者修復的速度太慢然後我也看到NCC的預算表"},{"start":10692.874,"end":10708.109,"text":"這個短短的幾頁要了2.95億的預算我也覺得寫得不心不楚這個跟委員說明這不是NCC提出來是這三家業者組成了一個叫不是 我的意思是說這次要2.95億的預算這次我們不是在討論特別預算嗎"},{"start":10712.333,"end":10729.4,"text":"那寫了幾頁就要2.95億其實我的看法跟主委是一樣的這個老NCC不能僅憑一張簡報就籠統帶過要求編3億元的補助我跟委員報告這錢是這三家業者要求的補助並不是NCC要使用"},{"start":10730.137,"end":10748.93,"text":"沒有 那NCC也要補助啊對不對它是就是三家業者補助這三家業者所以我們才認為說它應該有一個詳盡的說明跟未來面對這種那如果沒有提出詳盡計畫的話我們今天要給它補助嗎我們會因為我看它的這個計畫裡面的補助業者是大概有49%耶"},{"start":10750.951,"end":10779.335,"text":"就是說他目前還沒有提出來然後也要看沒有提出來我們今天就不用審了而是新的2.91就不用審了不是 就是這個整個預算編在這裡至於將來要補助到什麼程度來 主委你也不用幫他講話我請他帶主委來講話但是我是認同你的想法跟委員報告這個補助案主要的原因是因為為什麼要補助業者是因為他在栽房法補助業者有多少"},{"start":10781.209,"end":10787.234,"text":"電信業者2.75億為什麼要補助他們到2.75億他們掙錢是有給政府嗎第一項12款它是公共設施跟水電一樣補助的比例多高49%為什麼要補助到49%這個民間業者他們不是應該要做修復的嗎為什麼是由政府來補助呢"},{"start":10802.925,"end":10819.862,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛講說在災防法裡頭它的角色跟一般公共設施一樣跟水電一樣我們希望加快修復速度它不是水電 台水跟台電它是屬於公務機關它們不是公務機關對 但是在災防法裡頭它的角色是一樣的是公共設施"},{"start":10821.391,"end":10845.884,"text":"九色是一樣的 你捕捉高達49%剛才提的就是說災防法裡面就是說當災害發生的時候為了因應 為了改善相關主管機關可以要求電信列車配合做若干措施來修復這些電信或保證現在就是修復太慢了就是因為修復慢而且那是既有設施的損壞所以我們才要說"},{"start":10846.724,"end":10855.232,"text":"他必須提出來因為依據災防法是當然是相關主管機關要付費主委 我對這筆預算我也有意見那最後再請教一下這個陳代理主委現在這個有關民間業者我們要求這個災區要漫遊是不是這個雙方有談不攏啊中華電信跟這個遠傳有談不攏啊"},{"start":10869.908,"end":10888.995,"text":"跟委員報告這個是因為災難漫遊是第一次啟動我們在8月5號的新聞稿有提到說那我問一下費用是由誰出漫遊到中華電信費用由誰出其實漫遊的部分我們是建議他們去協商那我們現在也訂了SOP的要點希望他們可以用協商來處理8月7號之後漫遊由誰來出"},{"start":10890.168,"end":10906.189,"text":"目前是三家業者協商是由原來的母網的人來處理誰假設我是中華電信我們漫遊到遠傳的話那錢是中華電信來出目前是這樣子但是我們並沒有強制他們這樣不是兩家業者就搭中華電信的順風車了嗎"},{"start":10910.755,"end":10920.668,"text":"換個角度來講其實不是這樣子其實三大業者好啦 我時間到了你這個規範要點這個如果出來之後再給我一份我會繼續再追問來 謝謝 謝謝兩位主委沒問題好 謝謝李坤澄委員再來我們請張宏祿委員"},{"start":10936.858,"end":10941.284,"text":"我先請陳金德主委我們先請陳主委"},{"start":10952.032,"end":10972.158,"text":"委員好 主委你辛苦這個南部的風災我們公共工程委員會還成立前進指揮所然後你到第一線我想請問一下陳主委目前我們的所有的風災所有的善後的工作到底是做到幾層了"},{"start":10973.678,"end":10989.771,"text":"好 如果以復原未住金的話以台南市政府中央撥補了這個11億他們應該給災民的部分應該有八成以上錢已經撥補下去行政院是7月25"},{"start":10991.192,"end":11012.955,"text":"就錢就下去了他們因為要審核根據破損面積防止受損的修繕的部分大概有2萬多戶2萬2千多戶這裡面經過各區公所一一去詢問的大概99%以上都有答覆有的已經自行修繕"},{"start":11014.136,"end":11037.017,"text":"有的在等待修繕有的希望政府來媒合他修繕希望政府媒合修繕大概有3300戶左右這3300戶也是98%都有安排廠商跟他媒合當中大概有2000戶左右他大概也有比價所以他放棄政府的媒合所以說大概1000多戶"},{"start":11038.618,"end":11063.11,"text":"跟政府媒合裡面有簽約的有600戶換句話說簽約的部分事實上已經到達60%以上了那簽約600戶呢完工施工備料的大概都這簽約的600多戶都已經完工跟施工在備料中了所以目前如果說相對於那三四萬戶看起來好像簽約的很少"},{"start":11063.59,"end":11082.601,"text":"但如果是相對於他已經過這個聯繫經過他的意願然後經過評估之後那麼由政府來做的那麼也高達50%的所以進度雖然不如不是很快但是已經陸續加緊在進行中而且廠商進去超過300家"},{"start":11084.269,"end":11110.25,"text":"那到底是缺料的問題還是缺工的問題太多戶了 瞬間那麼多戶要進行修繕那麼多人同時在要求修繕所以太多了那料當然也是個問題料因為全國各地不同的廠商他還要下去量 漲量那個浪板所以這個各種條件的確都是不是那麼快速能夠到達料的部分 來 經濟部"},{"start":11115.64,"end":11143.77,"text":"何市長這個這個料的部分所有的台灣的廠商都登記在經濟部吧對不對是那你經濟部應該就可以所有的廠商什麼料什麼什麼馬上第一時間給給災區優先是有沒有你們有沒有要求廠商這樣是我們有那個產發署裡面有我們有一個平台有沒有要求廠商這樣我們有跟廠商這邊有"},{"start":11144.83,"end":11163.846,"text":"有成立一個供料的一個平台那如果說我們從這個重建的部分有這些料源的需求的話我們可以透過廠商這邊可以來做你等於是做個平台而已你就沒有要求你就沒有去做這些廠商都在這裡你經濟部"},{"start":11167.469,"end":11194.22,"text":"你要求他先供應你這邊然後怎樣他加班什麼就先供應你們我覺得料不會有問題跟委員報告我們有把廠商的清單都列出來那也有提供給指揮所然後也有給那個地方政府不是啦我剛問你的你都沒有回答我你跟我講一大堆對不對你的經濟部你主管機關我要求你有多少料你去點你的庫存你去點你的什麼你多少多少給我"},{"start":11195.523,"end":11204.969,"text":"一通電話就解決了是 我們可以來做不只浪板所有的東西一通電話就解決了跟委員報告這個部分我們是可以來協調廠商現在才要協調過了那麼久了你們趕快去做有 我們跟指揮所這邊來配合我想請衛福部一下"},{"start":11215.066,"end":11233.414,"text":"我想請問這次這個風災尤其是南部都是很多獨居長者他們裡面可能有一些維生的器材或什麼如果沒有電那其實相當危險的我希望衛福部跟經濟部藉著這一次有這個問題發生像這種獨居他家裡可能有維生器材或什麼的"},{"start":11240.177,"end":11249.643,"text":"我們是不是幫他媒介或什麼的用不斷電系統或什麼的不然如果再一次的話這樣子很危險你們做不做得到"},{"start":11251.845,"end":11271.58,"text":"我們會跟衛福部這邊來配合其實我們也有請廠商捐贈一些物資我們也透過指揮所這邊來做發放給我五秒鐘我不是捐贈物資我剛講的是不斷電系統你不能讓它斷電它不能維生你們要去處理這個而已可不可以好 我們會跟衛福部這邊來做處理好 謝謝我們張宏祿委員接下來我們請黃捷委員"},{"start":11285.046,"end":11292.115,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請台電的曾董事長來 我們請台電曾董事長是 委員長"},{"start":11301.482,"end":11325.205,"text":"好 董事長早喔這次的丹納斯颱風全台灣大概3500支電桿倒塌全台大概100萬戶來停電那其中其實高雄受影響很重我們從去年的凱米到山豚到今年的丹納斯每一次都因為這個電纜地下化的問題受到重創那這一次呢其實高雄就有3萬多戶停電"},{"start":11326.886,"end":11332.23,"text":"那我在這邊想要再一次的幫我們選區來爭取因為我們選區的古山路跟登山街這兩條其實我從去年的山陀兒之後就已經跟台電爭取完了那好不容易爭取到了這兩條台電也答應我了結果今年初你們又說因為撥補的問題沒有辦法解決財政困難所以這兩條的預算你們又把它移除了"},{"start":11354.482,"end":11378.601,"text":"那移除之後我對選民很難交代啊那到了現在你們又有了這個風災的特別條例可是我看到裡面你們提到的是遷改線路80億架空線路的有22億然後在國安的任性條例裡面有提到科學園區你們要撥131億然後遷改線路也是有61億架空線路有8億總共有302億這麼多的預算那請問這裡面"},{"start":11383.965,"end":11412.184,"text":"有电缆地下化吗有啊那请问你们这里面的电缆地下化的费用用在哪一些路段已经出来了吗目前规划主要是以省道为最主要优先这是这两个特别条例里面这就是我想问的你们这一次拨的这两个条例里面总共302亿里面只有提到省道只有提到科学园区可是你们之前跟我们选区跳票的内容"},{"start":11413.223,"end":11437.061,"text":"要放在哪裡那個台電也有我們每年年度有一部分的預算在做地下化的工作那如果這個地方是比較容易遇到就是比較容易遇到所以我這兩條才爭取這麼久董事長我跟您報告我們古山路五年跳電了三十次登山街三年跳電了九次"},{"start":11437.842,"end":11455.947,"text":"就是這麼高每一次發生停電的時候選民都問我說我們這裡是不是次等公民為什麼隔了一條街別人都沒停電就我們停電只要每一次風災一來都是這兩個路段在受損所以去年我好不容易跟你們爭取結果你們現在跟我說沒有"},{"start":11456.943,"end":11474.259,"text":"你们跟我说没有委员 我这样子讲你刚才说的事情是高雄区处发生的状况那像我们的副总应该也有去跟您的办公室讨论过这件事没有那这一个部分的工作没有 你们跟我们说就算有预算也不一定会编"},{"start":11475.26,"end":11484.21,"text":"就算有預算我們過去爭取到的也一樣可能會跳票這就是台電告訴我的所以我今天特別來這邊質詢就是想告訴你說虎山路跟山街這兩條什麼時候要編什麼時候要編"},{"start":11491.818,"end":11494.121,"text":"這不太可能要講我報告委員你現在講的古山山路的所有的狀況細節上面包括它可能會牽涉到一些軍事設施的圍牆那圍牆要拆除才有辦法開挖我還要拆除圍牆把它裝回來"},{"start":11510.299,"end":11523.239,"text":"我們陪你們會看我們找軍方陪你們會看我們都會看過啦那時候答應我的就是要示範一段然後登山街也是都已經告訴我不是已經做六成了嗎我也沒有說高雄區處不要做"},{"start":11524.577,"end":11536.225,"text":"什麼叫做不要做 我們卓院長都說過總處從來沒有說過說有預算也不要做那委員 你一定要講說有預算也不要做我覺得這個事情可能是不合理的地下化不是萬靈丹你們現在不只是推卸責任你們還告訴我說不是萬靈丹地下化不是萬靈丹問題是你們現在連止痛藥都不給啊你們就看著選民在你們面前的痛苦啊"},{"start":11554.617,"end":11567.125,"text":"就是這樣我必須要告訴董事長這就是台電一直以來給我的態度我覺得這不是台電全部的狀況如果出現了部分這樣的情形我會去找我們區處的同仁來檢討我早就講過了你們有找嗎高雄區處如果有這樣子的狀況我們會找高雄區處的狀況看高雄區處哪一個主管我們會找他們來檢討"},{"start":11579.201,"end":11604.301,"text":"所以我在這邊要求你檢討並且把這兩條路段到底要放在哪一筆預算明確的告訴我它有好幾個可能性我要講一個事情現在我們省的特別預算提出來的都是主幹線那台電自有的預算能夠優先做我們會來優先做所以馬連風災的特別預算都不能下來處理我們因為受到風災影響的路段只有省道"},{"start":11605.339,"end":11620.606,"text":"委員我們報告我們很清楚知道在有限的時間跟預算的範圍內我們是不是請董事長再跟我們黃姐委員再多做溝通好不好謝謝我們黃姐委員因為時間到了接下來我們請陳育臻委員謝謝主席請行政院工程會主委等一下還有經濟部我們請陳主委還有經濟部經濟部等一下好"},{"start":11638.607,"end":11665.082,"text":"主委好謝謝您那一天到我們金門去視察這個重大的公共工程建設那水頭商港現在是李雲大樓是大概幾月十一天完工是你說的應該今年可以試營運了今年什麼時候試營運年底日期我不太記得了我那天去看他是可以完工而且那天去看的現場已經在裝修要收賣了所以他"},{"start":11665.842,"end":11687.179,"text":"今年年底看能不能試營運希望很快讓這個金門有一個我們有一個好的門面第二個來你們那天你們那天有特別就是上次我在院會總質詢的時候有質詢經濟部部長然後這個卓院長那有提到這個供水的這個問題就是金門供水任性的問題那我知道您那天特別有去"},{"start":11688.901,"end":11705.44,"text":"這個開會喔到這個金門海淡廠去開會有關金門綠島地區供水改善計畫第三期喔那做了兩個會議記錄喔你看這個您是主席嘛提升 為提升兩個結論一個為了提升金門地區的供水韌性要積極發展多元的水資源及海淡水為優先考量對吧這第一個結論"},{"start":11706.301,"end":11723.193,"text":"第二個結論清溢金門地區既有海膽廠設施改善計畫及金門三萬噸海膽廠興建工程的可行性規劃一併納入離島地區供水改善計畫第三級合併辦理對吧沒錯你知道現在金門的這個水是一天大概兩萬多噸對吧"},{"start":11724.901,"end":11744.346,"text":"基本的水 用水 民生用水現在依賴對岸的 依賴大陸大概兩萬三千噸大概有兩萬噸每一天要從大陸過來這個您知道所以站在這個國家整體的考量那時候我跟卓院長在立法院質詢有提出也問了經濟部 郭部長就是說"},{"start":11747.611,"end":11764.824,"text":"就是金門的也要有自己自足的供水能力嘛就是供水能力我那天講的就是說海水淡化嘛對 就是要有供水能力然後你們覺得說要以海水淡化為優先嘛但是還有其他比方說金門有時候會有下強降雨啊所以那個水都流掉了所以應該有一些"},{"start":11765.905,"end":11788.063,"text":"比較簡歷的設施希望把這個水留住包括流水設施是不是第三個就是那經常有大霧嘛那個大霧應該有一些設施呢可以利用這個霧啊能夠來產生一些水但這是很微量你是不是把霧驅除掉變成水吧有這樣科技啊霧噴到一些金屬啊它會凝結在上面水會滴下來這個也有"},{"start":11789.844,"end":11815.103,"text":"先例可循有現代的技術就對了可以解除解除物的困擾又得到水這樣子嗎不過還是以海水淡化為主對都有啦這幾步都要做啦好那這個很好謝謝你們這個是也是我那時候提出來的那雖然我們部長是健康郭部長健康因素要這個請辭不過還是謝謝他當初有也有跟我們肯定的答案說要做這一個啦那但政策還是要延續吧那所以請問啦這個包括剛剛"},{"start":11817.245,"end":11839.904,"text":"那個陳主委所提的 既有海戰場設施改善工程還有興建三萬噸海戰場的可行性計劃什麼時候會開始呢你們的這個時程你們哪個單位可以回答工程會主委有說了吧 這個可行性計劃已經要開始了開始了沒 什麼時候要開始做這個計劃然後什麼時候可以加快跟委員報告 我們會把它納入到這個"},{"start":11841.826,"end":11858.76,"text":"中長者這個計劃 哪個計劃可能要爭取那個離島建設條例的一些相關的離島經費我先告訴你 他現在是可行性評估嘛評估可以先開始吧 這個工程會陳主委這是你提的吧你說要加快 加快是什麼時候我們應該是"},{"start":11862.662,"end":11889.374,"text":"沒關係 可以回答 那回答什麼時候呢報告委員這個是列在我們離島供水計畫的第三期計畫剛核定哪一年可以開始什麼時候可以把可行性計畫評估做好可以告訴我嗎我們原則上這個發包的作業因為它做可行性評估那我們會盡快盡快是什麼時候 我時間有限告訴我什麼時候我建議就是以現在來看應該是明年大概六月前可以把可行性計畫做好嗎不是"},{"start":11890.516,"end":11916.278,"text":"可以開始做可行性計畫一年後開始做可行性喔年底發包年底發包 六月前又有檔案所以原則上是以明年完成為網目標明年六月前完成啦完成可行性評估會 明年六月底完成沒問題吧應該年底 因為它一年的計畫 還有明年年底喔一個計畫要做一年喔因為它做成 這個要加快啦我沒有那麼多時間啦 加快加快我們會加快 好 謝謝來 接著環境部喔 對不起時間停一下 環境部上來一下環境部"},{"start":11919.161,"end":11919.322,"text":"進步來 部長"},{"start":11928.82,"end":11953.277,"text":"部長這個災後風災你們有一個石棉的處理方式石棉瓦三部兩約就要處理這些石棉瓦因為這個有環境污染而且對健康有害這個裡面有做了一個計畫7億元補助地方政府處理我們金門也有雖然這是不在風災區裡頭但我們金門也有風災受損的石棉瓦屋頂你們這個有研究計畫112年到119年同學不好意思因為今天登記的人數很多能不能請我們部長"},{"start":11954.397,"end":11972.986,"text":"給這一個委員那個那我把題目讓出來你回答我書面就是說你有計畫說說我們基本憲政委員說沒有提出申請那請你再問一下憲政委員要不要申請然後接著什麼時候可以給我們這樣的計畫給我們多少錢你書面回覆給我好嗎書面回覆給陳玉珍委員好沒問題好謝謝好那接下來我們請謝一鳳委員好"},{"start":11985.787,"end":11992.297,"text":"呃謝謝主席我想要請彭部長然後農業部的陳部長經濟部市長好我們一起哎還有嗎嗯這樣"},{"start":11998.297,"end":12010.511,"text":"好 我們請這個環境部 經濟部還有這個農業部好 那因為現在時間是11點51分那我們現在就可以開放這個用餐那因為我們會議會繼續進行下去好 謝謝我們謝議員 謝委員"},{"start":12014.704,"end":12034.097,"text":"好 謝謝 洪部長我想請問你就是這一次的光電板回收的這樣子的一個疑義因為過去我們的法規規定的都是20年以後的這個光電板才回收即便是我們的光電板可以回收到92到95%"},{"start":12037.23,"end":12059.025,"text":"那但是過去以來因為還沒到20年所有的業者因為回收這個沒有經濟效益所以量能不夠大我想請問你這次風災所產生的2600到2800噸的光電板毀損怎麼樣子怎麼樣子回收那法規上面要不要改"},{"start":12059.725,"end":12079.947,"text":"報告委員其實目前的量是夠的但是因為第一次遇到這麼大的量所以我們也在看說這個去化的業者到底夠不夠那目前正在進行當中那到底夠不夠目前看其實夠的而且未來還有一些業者也要投入所以我們預期未來大概可能是十年後這個大量的產出了之後目前我們來看沒有問題的"},{"start":12080.894,"end":12092.349,"text":"十年後沒有問題那如果未來再發生風災有像這樣子這麼大量的光電板的時候有沒有現在目前的回收業者有沒有讓能處理"},{"start":12093.698,"end":12114.763,"text":"目前是可以但是因為這次委員跟報告委員因為這次在水面上所以它的這個量才會那麼的大那我們也觀察了很多的這種所謂的在陸地上的或是在屋頂上的其實它的損害沒有那麼的多那受災的光電板在法律上面是認為是一般廢棄物而不是專門的回收物"},{"start":12115.583,"end":12143.898,"text":"那這個部分你是要在法規上修改它現在就是一個叫做事業廢棄物事業廢棄物那它必須有妥善的處理所以他們這一次也必須業者也要自付這個處理的一個費用所以現在還是一般的事業廢棄物而不是回收物它基本上送給這個所謂的回收廠那個都我們經過列管的那它基本上都有編號所以會妥善的處理它必須要完整的去做回收不能隨便亂丟的"},{"start":12145.512,"end":12172.383,"text":"如果它不是回收物那怎麼樣子按照回收的規則那它現在目前是一般事業廢棄物你是不是應該要回去瞭解一下是廢棄物但是它每一個都有編號那每一個編號都要進到回收場我說你回去瞭解一下法規是不是要修改好不好你一定要回去瞭解好不好我一定會追蹤你的好沒問題還有現在在你旁邊的有經濟部有農業部有水利署"},{"start":12173.163,"end":12189.266,"text":"都是這一次風災非常重要相關的部門處理淹水的問題但是我們遇到一個非常棘手的跨部會的問題都找不到環境部來處理啊"},{"start":12190.583,"end":12197.748,"text":"有啊 我們一直都在團隊裡面一直在處理你們都一直在團隊裡面對 都在處理他們沒有告訴你嗎現在全台灣的稻田這一次的風災非常多的稻谷你把它堆到旁邊因為淹水連日的大雨即便颱風沒有到彰化連日的大雨也造成稻谷"},{"start":12214.499,"end":12235.775,"text":"淹水所有的排水設施不管是水利署的農田水利署的等等的自來水廠的都受到相關的影響導致農民在說未來是不是應該在颱風的時候開放他們可以焚燒這些稻谷"},{"start":12236.616,"end":12263.668,"text":"那如果焚燒稻谷不是我們環境部的法規可以處理的你環境部是不是要有新的調適的方法你要怎麼做那這一次的稻谷所有都淹塞了我們的排水設施我們所有相關的設施導致於淹水沒有辦法退"},{"start":12264.708,"end":12266.534,"text":"那我想請問你環境部你怎麼處理"},{"start":12268.218,"end":12295.765,"text":"他目前是有一些農民他希望能夠來焚燒啦那目前其實我們這個會再跟農業部好好再討論因為不是說焚燒的問題喔而是這些稻穀都已經阻塞了所有的排水設施未來如果颱風再來這些稻穀再阻塞了我們的設施那導致淹水不退導致我們所有的農產品"},{"start":12297.245,"end":12311.014,"text":"你復耕也好連日的大雨一個月全部都沒有辦法種欸這怎麼樣處理大家希望你環境部要給出一個做法嘛你說不能焚燒沒關係你要"},{"start":12313.995,"end":12336.562,"text":"你要協調出一個新的方法SRF或者其他方法你一定要好好處理今天只有五分鐘但是這個問題很大未來颱風的時候還會持續的發生一定要想出一個調適的方法謝謝委員 問題很大私下再跟我們委員報告接下來請牛許題委員"},{"start":12344.125,"end":12372.912,"text":"謝謝主席 環境部長有請好 我們請環境部來 彭部長來 彭部長委員好部長回來啦今年7月丹納斯颱風重創南部民宅淹水道路損毀水利設施崩壞農業損失慘重到今天為止都還有很多居民在災後重建的過程中苦苦掙扎政府這一次提出了災後復原重建的特別預算案目的當然是要協助各地方政府競速的"},{"start":12374.132,"end":12397.568,"text":"這個災後復原修復災情但我必須要嚴肅的提醒這筆預算的每一分錢都應該用在人民的生活重建尤其不可以用在替財團插屁股颱風過後大家都看到南部地區有非常多的光電板被摧毀破碎的光電板到處亂飛甚至直接棄置還有無良業者直接破碎等等嚴重影響環境衛生甚至有可能造成污染"},{"start":12398.607,"end":12414.554,"text":"現在看起來很多我們也擔心啦光電業者擺明的就是要擺爛要政府出錢幫他們擦屁股那我知道彭部長已經開罰九百萬元也要求在九月底之前要完成所謂的清運但這個都還是沒有辦法平息社會大眾的質疑跟焦慮啊"},{"start":12415.174,"end":12432.469,"text":"這些廠商真的會照做嗎還是他們會繼續擺爛到底呢畢竟在這段時間這種失衡的政策導引下面這綠能廠商啊一個二個負的流油啊這九百萬的罰單對他們來講九牛一毛當作繳保護費繳一繳就算了他們真的會好好清運嗎"},{"start":12433.55,"end":12460.384,"text":"那我就要問啊現在行政院編列的災後重建的特別預算裡面環境不是16億嘛對不對16億你講的大宗項目是指所有廢棄物的清運部長我要在這邊嚴肅的提醒這16億元你可以拿來清淤泥清垃圾 清倒塌建築物等等沒有問題幫助人民恢復家園我相信不分朝野都會支持但本席絕不同意光電業者藉機要轉嫁責任"},{"start":12461.565,"end":12480.418,"text":"光電板既然是業者的財產他們也享有了政策的優惠回損之後的回收等等他就應該要自行負責不可以讓納稅人替這個財團買單部長你同意我這樣的說法嗎報告員 對 你說的都是對我們裡面的預算沒有一分錢是給廢棄光電板處理的那這個都是他必須要自己負責的"},{"start":12481.755,"end":12503.14,"text":"他必須要自己負責對不對那如果說他真的做不到那我們要代位求償我們接手的話一定是跟他求償所以我們不希望走到那一步剛剛好幾位的委員其實都有提出啦光電板的清運問題啊那總量是2600到2800噸對不對部長從你的專業的角度來分析好好的處理這些廢棄物總共要花多少錢"},{"start":12504.379,"end":12515.932,"text":"那個是業者自己的事例如說他必須要付給最後的回收處理業者我知道這是業者自己的事你剛剛也做了宣示這我覺得很好但問題是這個量是多少因為我們總要做一下估算"},{"start":12517.302,"end":12543.313,"text":"你講可能會有代位求償等等這樣的事情那會不會造成業者倒閉呢不會 報委員那一家業者他還在申請這個賭購費率等等的他還有錢我們也查過他的資產沒有問題的部長你既然可以掛保證那你們整個環境部體系裡面從輕運的角度應該很多專家吧到底要花多少錢2800噸我們是基本上不願意去做這個事因為他必須要去處理自己的我現在問你的是你的專業判斷這個東西要花多少錢"},{"start":12545.114,"end":12569.14,"text":"大概幾億 應該要花幾億嘛 對不對所以這本期要嚴肅提醒啦你今天馬上下午大概要進到預算的審查我希望環境部你整理一下資料既然部長剛剛已經明確宣示這16億不會用在這個地方絕對沒有 完全沒有那我們也想要稍微知道這16億的明細項目嘛也就是一包它是16億有多少拿來清淤泥有多少清倒塌廢棄物等等這部分請環境部要提供一個比較完整的資料"},{"start":12570.081,"end":12576.632,"text":"這樣我們才能夠好交代嘛要不然很多人民會擔心的會被大家偷梁換柱嘛對不對沒問題好不好 這個明信能不能提供好 可以"},{"start":12577.452,"end":12599.347,"text":"好那第二就是我們要對於光電廠商我擔心他們推卸責任除了開罰之外啦因為剛剛部長也講了一個數字嘛清運的費用回收的費用可能好幾億對不對好幾億跟九百萬的罰單確實是不成比例嘛那他就有可能造成他們投機取巧或者是用奇怪的方式來處理這樣的狀況我們要求環境部提出更嚴格的處罰機制"},{"start":12600.928,"end":12618.299,"text":"讓廠商確實的來做處理不能假裝一下交差了事更不能擺爛請問環境部有沒有什麼更強的方式可以盯著他們完成這件事呢報告委員現在已經進入他們要提出清理的報告計畫那我們在審核當中那未來就是期限內300 300 300這樣罰那300是因為廢清法的規定最多就是300萬"},{"start":12622.842,"end":12647.643,"text":"除了這個之外還有沒有什麼 你要不要跟經濟部協調一下比如說他們現在享有很多的政策優惠啊他如果不配合的時候我就要從另外的方式來做處理有沒有考慮過這樣跨部的方式一起來增加壓力這個我們一定會來處理但是基本上我們看到他們是他們現在目前的承諾是9月5號前會把它清完好 這個功課也麻煩部長多費心啦這兩件事情麻煩會後提供詳細的資料跟配套 可以嗎可以 謝謝好 謝謝 辛苦了"},{"start":12650.354,"end":12667.498,"text":"謝謝我們劉委員接下來我們請王玉敏委員好 謝謝主席有請工程會主委還有內政部部長來 我們請陳主委還有劉部長我們內政部劉部長委員好"},{"start":12677.882,"end":12697.282,"text":"主委好主委昨天我在院會就是有問你有關於這個弱勢戶屋頂修繕的問題那昨天這個李孟彥顧問他在嘉義開會的時候他也提出來嘉義縣現在還有90個邊緣戶他可能不符合資格或者是未租金不足以負擔修繕的費用"},{"start":12698.223,"end":12711.59,"text":"我昨天也在院會要求就是這次我們已經重寬給你們更多的預算了這90戶你是不是可以允諾都把它納入你們全補助的一個範圍幫助他們把屋頂修上好 可以嗎"},{"start":12712.622,"end":12742.062,"text":"因為包括嘉義縣市還有台南市那麼你講的大概就是有身心障礙的戶還有就是說獨居老人或者是他收入是不能夠符合低收或中低以經濟角度來考量你昨天提的是這個至於說特殊盡力跟脆弱家庭那不是經濟考量那是他的那個情形我已經納入了"},{"start":12743.483,"end":12750.87,"text":"我們這個禮拜五會再召開這個前進指揮所的會議會徵詢這三個縣市的意見他們在執行這個業務的區公所比方說這個身心障礙身心障礙未必是戶主"},{"start":12761.439,"end":12779.829,"text":"所以他那邊要去集合這些資料要花一點時間所以我們禮拜五盡量會朝這個方向來評估到底是怎麼執行方式允許我們跟這三個縣市政府討論之後再來採取一個能夠快速大家能接受的方案"},{"start":12780.109,"end":12807.347,"text":"因為現在已經出現問題了就是這些邊緣戶的確他有需求那我們現在還有30億的預備金就應該可以放寬來處理這些有需求然後他現在沒有得到幫助的這些家庭我希望主委這件事情我已經表達非常清楚我們就是禮拜五的會議會提出來討論好 那你們結果告訴這個本席這邊好不好給辦公室好 謝謝主委好 內政部長請回接下來我要問的是有關我們請環境部還有經濟部來"},{"start":12810.456,"end":12813.066,"text":"沒有剛剛主委已經答應了所以部長可以請回了"},{"start":12814.529,"end":12841.808,"text":"接下來我要問的是有關於廢棄的光電板這整個清運的部分現在13.5萬片的這些光電板它的後續處理都要運到不是苗栗就是桃園這一個距離非常的遙遠超過150公里甚至200公里我先問環境部部長你們有沒有算過清運這13.5萬片的光電板"},{"start":12844.45,"end":12860.417,"text":"會多造成多少的碳排沒有算過但是那個車次量是蠻大的所以我們也希望說未來在中南部因為它那個光電板的量比較在中南部未來中南部應該也要有這樣的回收廠來處理那你們這樣的一個計畫預計什麼時候有沒有一個目標期程這個就是我要問的重點"},{"start":12865.359,"end":12882.641,"text":"你現在大量的這一些廢棄的光電板都是從南部運到北部來處理你一方面你要減碳但是你這個增加的碳排實在是太大了那你未來你說你希望在南部地區也設置可以專門的這個回收廠跟處理你有沒有一個什麼期程"},{"start":12883.341,"end":12905.388,"text":"這個要業者來處理啦但是我們在未來的這個環保的循環經濟的規劃裡面我們的確要把這個的確已經考慮把它放進去而且業者表達這個意願好 你們應該要去輔導而且應該要成立接下來我要問的是現在的這一家原育公司是擺爛就是它所有允諾的事情通通都沒有做到現在有3.5萬片"},{"start":12907.048,"end":12918.177,"text":"其實還擺在那邊了完全沒有星運那這個部分我現在手上得到的資料因為公司目前繳交的這個光電模組回收費用才585萬他應該要繳交的是不是1950萬"},{"start":12924.975,"end":12949.653,"text":"它是跟那個它必須繳交給能源署每一K瓦大概1000塊所以委員算的就是這個那為什麼它現在繳的這麼少它只繳了三成因為它只只有大概有幾年只有幾年的營運的時間對 這個就是我要問的來 接下來這個經濟部聽說元玉公司它是一再的轉手請問它一開始的時候是台灣哪間廠商就是成立了這個案場是由哪一個廠商負責的有人傳出來說是雲報是嗎"},{"start":12955.002,"end":12974.577,"text":"一開始可能不是雲報那是誰我們再理解一下你們到現在沒掌握我要問的就是說像這種一再轉手聽說他轉了六七手現在才變成是泰國的投資進來這個轉手的過程你經濟部的角色是什麼"},{"start":12975.558,"end":12987.547,"text":"有沒有在審核把關我現在很擔心的是轉到最後下一手的然後是一個爛攤子然後他就告訴你說我沒有辦法那就變成是政府的負擔你這個要怎麼來防止"},{"start":12988.466,"end":13007.134,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們都會審查按照相關的法規做審查就是他一定要符合我們的一些法規我們才會同意他但是現在看起來元玉這家公司最不遵守中華民國法令的就是元玉這家公司別的廠商做得到他做不到擺爛現在如果九月五"},{"start":13007.854,"end":13024.466,"text":"9月5號他沒有做的話就變成是環境部跟你們要出來善後我覺得這件事情你們要徹底的檢討把你們檢討報告一份給本席的辦公室 好不好將來要好好的把關 謝謝謝謝一鳴委員接著我們請李燕秀委員質詢燕秀"},{"start":13036.601,"end":13041.305,"text":"謝謝召委我可不可以請台電的董事長台電鄭文森董事長台電就可以了嗎台電先暫時先台電經濟部有在嗎經濟部次長次長好謝謝"},{"start":13063.117,"end":13083.511,"text":"董事長我想今天很多委員都關注台電電纜地下化的問題因為在這幾次風災當中其實我們都看到不管是不是在颱風陣當中無論現在面對極端氣候風大雨大有時候並非真正在颱風的中心眼但是很多因為電線桿發生問題在昨天包括在颱風的期間我們看到電線桿倒塌的狀況非常的嚴重"},{"start":13091.176,"end":13109.084,"text":"昨天包括在我的選區我們看下一張照片也有因為駕駛的問題扯到電線桿那造成倒塌另外一件就是在上次康瑞颱風的時候在我選區也是因為電線桿沒有地下化然後最後電塔倒塌經過摩托車的騎士當場壓死的狀況"},{"start":13115.733,"end":13138.419,"text":"這些議題 這些事件都不會只是一兩件我當然個人希望未來不要再有類似的狀況發生但是你我都心知肚明電線桿地下化 誠如卓院長講的在台東的視察的時候他講電線桿地下化未來勢在必行那也就看你台電的決心跟經濟部的決心"},{"start":13140.679,"end":13163.287,"text":"當然我有關注到在我們最近的預算當中我們有編了無論是在韌性的預算裡面有編200億包括在災後的特別條例有80億但是我關注到這些你們未來做的地方都是在科學園區還有在主要幹道我並不是說科學園區不重要主要幹道也當然都很重要"},{"start":13164.451,"end":13189.899,"text":"每個地方都很重要它只要有可能發生災害危險壓傷到人每一條人命都是命你同意我的說法吧委員我可不可以先澄清一下這一個報導因為那個200億其實不是全部都在產業供電有69億基本上是配電的地下化就是一般高壓的科學園區都是特高壓另外我要跟委員報告就是我們有一些在"},{"start":13191.239,"end":13218.105,"text":"大台北地區的電纜那為了要穩定整個供電我們也會提前抽換這些都會做 但我同意就是說我們不希望是因為我們的公共設施造成人命的損傷對 每一條命不管它是在科學園區在主要幹道甚至不是主幹道我剛剛給你看一張照片我在文德路66巷康瑞颱風那一個就是風很大 還不是颱風眼一經過倒塌之後就壓死人所以我要講的是"},{"start":13219.005,"end":13233.46,"text":"不管只要是跟我們公共設施跟台電建設感有關係的早該地下化的沒有地下化因為我們的預算該編未編或者是我們主力放在哪裡我覺得這都是遺憾你我都"},{"start":13234.321,"end":13241.365,"text":"不希望看到這樣的憾事發生我們來看一下在今年度的數據好不好有一張全台北市在全國114年度我們總共預算編列477達成率只有37.5全國電纜地下化在台北市"},{"start":13253.833,"end":13276.483,"text":"就只有50.4達成率只有50.4在我內湖區我經過辦會刊在等待經費也好等待工班來也好達成率只有29.1這還是經過會刊台北市跟中央台電我們都有分配款大家都同意來做但是達成率卻只有這麼低"},{"start":13278.243,"end":13294.609,"text":"問題點在哪裡當然你們目前無論台電 電線桿 地下化我們現在只有一個大水庫的預算我很清楚只有大水庫的預算你們沒有固定專款專用怎麼去做處理所以過去這半年我會刊都跟我講說因為立法院砍了預算所以沒有錢"},{"start":13295.689,"end":13310.994,"text":"沒有這件事情你不要再跟我講沒有錢昨天卓院長前兩天在總預算已經講更何況這些預算其實都是在大水庫裡面你們過去也沒有專款專用所以既然中泰院長有宣誓"},{"start":13312.696,"end":13341.237,"text":"電線桿地下化未來我們勢在必行我們要來做優先順序怎麼來你們有一套優先順序我們也有一套優先順序大家都希望趕快用心來做只要在工程上技術上可以克服我們都希望優先來做所以我要請問董事長包括經濟部這邊未來有沒有可能專款專用來去做處理而且順序要趕快盡速地排出來"},{"start":13342.247,"end":13348.484,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是特別預算的特別預算的部分他本來就是匡列在特別使用所以他一定專款專用"},{"start":13350.271,"end":13366.988,"text":"這是第一點我想跟您報告第二點就是您提到內湖區這個只有30%的部分包括內湖區的包括未來的我了解您聽我說我去了解一下這個到底是什麼東西影響的是因為有的時候地下化要拿路證要幹嘛的那個東西路證我都在幫你們跑所有協調台北市政府路證我都可以幫你們跑別人要一個禮拜我兩三天都幫你跑出來我都希望工程加快"},{"start":13374.355,"end":13400.824,"text":"有一些電線桿該地下化都是工程的死角小學生過馬路特別晚上都很危險這個通學道的部分我們有特別拿出來要特別處理好 豆佑先生我絕對是在帶每個人都在後面但是有涉及到行車安全開車死角我都希望我們進度來做還有學校的那個通學道內湖區只有29.1想辦法至少加快到一半吧好 我們去了解那裡卡到哪個地方好 謝謝謝謝謝謝接著請張雅玲"},{"start":13406.099,"end":13429.974,"text":"請詹阿玲委員質詢有請環境部環境部請部長 環境部部長環境部部長"},{"start":13440.517,"end":13467.486,"text":"簡報委員好好 我簡報也沒有出來不過沒關係我們就開始沒關係就是說我想就是針對一個丹麥斯颱風來了之後其實一連串在西南部降了非常大的一個雨量其實我們有發現就是說歷史觀測的一個數據台灣降雨模式的根本性改變在過去數十年我們的總雨日總雨日呈現持續減少的趨勢特別是關於農業灌溉與地下水的部分"},{"start":13468.466,"end":13482.917,"text":"這個小雨日數的減幅是尤其的劇烈像每十年大概就減少了四天那是過去百年的兩倍那所以說呢台灣的氣候挑戰並不是只是水災或是旱災而是在這兩個極端系統下面的一個擺盪"},{"start":13484.737,"end":13504.968,"text":"系統的不穩定我們其實也針對了台灣進行我們也看到台灣進行降尺度分析之後未來的氣候推估將會這樣子的狀況就會是乾季越乾 濕季越濕狀況會越來越糟糕高排放的情境之下濕季的降雨量可能會超過20%尤其是南部的地區增加是更為明顯的"},{"start":13505.908,"end":13527.981,"text":"那在2023年其實我們把一個叫原本是溫室氣體減量級管理法更名為氣候變遷因應法這個法三讀通過之後除了把2050年進行排放正式納入目標之外還增訂了全新的氣候變遷條式篇章專章但是我們也看到就是說在幫我按下一頁好了沒有反應可以了"},{"start":13531.443,"end":13552.1,"text":"就是國家氣候變遷條式行動計畫目前已經要執行第三期從112年到115年會投入超過4116億新台幣但是我們發現根據立法院預算中心的報告以往災害是一個獨立的領域會整體的來去設計完整的防災思維包含颱風 暴雨 淹水等等"},{"start":13552.64,"end":13581.116,"text":"但是這次卻把災害拆掉了理由是因為災害只是氣候變遷的一項結果所以就把它分拆到其他的領域但是我們也看到就是說因為各個領域偏向於各自的目標也就是說水資源它可能就更專注於乾旱缺水產業用水確保這個供水穩定強化供水韌性但是像淹水這種水災就沒有被完整的納入那防洪防淹水的措施就相對缺乏"},{"start":13581.676,"end":13601.063,"text":"所以我們想要了解為何環境部只有認定災害警示氣候變遷的一個結果而不是需要一個完整的規劃因為在國際上面掀台減災這個框架是要明示災害風險管理是必須獨立的一個重要政策領域所以我想了解為什麼環境部會這樣子做"},{"start":13601.323,"end":13625.654,"text":"好謝謝委員因為我自己本身就是做這方面的研究過那其實這個條式是長的然後防災是短的所以在我們政府幾年前他們的定義裡面是就是把防災就防災的這個策略包含防災的體系其實我們國家這個很完整但是長的條式呢跟這個如何融合的確是現在的確是一個很大的一個問題那我有已經有要求我們同仁在下一個階段"},{"start":13626.554,"end":13646.173,"text":"要各個部會要來提調等於是說調試的報告的時候必須要有一個總和的一個概念來看這個事特別是像這次的天災我們也必須去檢討它是不是氣候變遷極端的調試我們要來預作準備所以我們的確在進行這個探究這個過程當中也希望大概在半年到一年內有一些初步的成果再跟委員報告"},{"start":13647.034,"end":13666.403,"text":"所以我想请教一下因为想要特别提醒我们是不是会跟内政部还有灾防中心县市政府一起来重新检视目前的这个你刚讲的这个调试的计划对这个很重要因为包含了这个所谓的极端的这个例如说降雨到多少我们要过什么要准备可能要跟过去是不一样了了解那听起来也是会增加一些新的模型进来一起做分析对吗对"},{"start":13667.043,"end":13690.122,"text":"好的那我想這個部分的話就是因為其實我想特別針對就是土地與都市規劃領域應該將氣候邊界納入這個環境性影響評估建立永續調適的制度這部分是不是內政部也可以一起來一起來努力一起來討論呢對可以也報告委員這個其實理想上都應該做但是真的落地落實上在政府各個部會要把調適放進去"},{"start":13691.423,"end":13718.622,"text":"的确是一个很大的难题那我们最近其实我上任其实我就想要做这个工作那当然这个需要一段时间那整个全部教育我们愿意来做好 了解 谢谢那我们接下来有请教育部跟卫福部好 教育部部长可以请回了 教育部卫福部今天没有练习OK 好 没关系那就是教育部我想教育部时间暂停一下 时间暂停"},{"start":13731.26,"end":13758.533,"text":"委員好好 謝謝部長那我簡單問兩個問題就是說針對於校園防疫就是因為現在可能我們在開學前都會要求一次的消毒而是因為現在在南部的地區西半部南部的地區他們有非常可能會有一些淹水積水的問題那是不是可以在開學之後呢還是有一些持續的去監管的一個措施可能去要求大家持續的消毒或是看一個積水的狀況去確保登革熱的疫情不會爆發是這個部分是不是可以請部長"},{"start":13760.117,"end":13762.289,"text":"根文報告事實上國教署在8月12號"},{"start":13765.462,"end":13790.79,"text":"這一個防疫就是在消毒這一個部分事實上在全我們有發文也請各地方政府這一個教育局處請這一個中小學能夠全面的這個消毒防疫我想這個在開學前本來他就是一個routine的一個工作那我們也特別在這一個南部的這一個災情我們在這一個部分先後發了兩次文一個是12號一個是22號"},{"start":13792.15,"end":13812.819,"text":"所以我們在開學之後還是會持續的監管這件事情嗎那再做一個提醒就是說我希望還是可以帶回除了學校之外也希望讓學生可以帶回家庭在於對於家長的一個防疫宣導也是要持續的來加強因為開學第一週謝謝委員提醒好 謝謝謝謝雅玲接著我們請喜智傑委員質詢"},{"start":13828.308,"end":13833.302,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們先請交通部跟園民會好 交通部還有我們園民會"},{"start":13854.093,"end":13867.354,"text":"部長 主委今天本來我們交通委員會因為我是召委今天排的考察行程就是要到我們的高雄的原鄉茂林 桃園 喇嘛西亞"},{"start":13868.668,"end":13883.518,"text":"去那邊考察那邊的狀況今天我們聯席所以我們原來交通委員會的行程就取消了但是我想這個部分我們今天還是要特地再加強跟部長跟"},{"start":13884.578,"end":13912.657,"text":"主委再重新的強調一次這個是丹奧斯颱風重建特別條例我們也謝謝賴總統他也希望說我們行政院跟立法院我們一起競速來通過這個重建的預算讓資源可以落實到地方所以首先我們要求就是重寬重減迅速處理這個部分 災民的需求我想非常的重要那今天這個預算我想國民黨三黨"},{"start":13914.418,"end":13936.944,"text":"其實應該大家都不會反對 可以迅速通過那也希望說迅速通過之後的執行能夠盡快我想說 希望說這個能夠要求的那關於交通部編列的69億包括道路省道那原住民會編的是3億 連外道路的搶修我們高雄這一次 其實你可以看到很嚴重"},{"start":13937.904,"end":13960.655,"text":"就是台20南橫東莊橋聖晉橋明巴各路橋台27線新發公路台28線齊六公路29線4K加500路段的還有民生橋今天當地的區長還有鄉親還有打電話給我說今天沒辦法去會館了後面還有沒有辦法再排會館我想我們這個特別條例"},{"start":13962.236,"end":13981.995,"text":"經費通過比較重要通過之後我想我們後續也希望說再去現場看一看那也希望說部長跟主委能夠支持那盡快來處理那另外一個就是明巴克路橋這個是我感受比較深的就是說明巴克路橋從88風災到現在地面的高度已經上升了50公尺"},{"start":13984.039,"end":14000.644,"text":"每一次的災害它就會再破壞一次那從交通部的角度是不是有比較遠見的一個工程的設計可以不要每一次災害然後就要破壞然後又花那麼多錢這個部分交通部有沒有比較好的設計"},{"start":14002.678,"end":14024.363,"text":"報告委員我們的設計一直都在改進當中但是大自然變化的速度很快我們在明年年底之前會完成中期的一個計畫明年年底之前的那個計畫的道路就會先完成那當然我們有長期的規劃希望他的抗災能力可以再提升對我想就是因為每次去看心裡都很痛那每次去看就發現說哇"},{"start":14026.175,"end":14045.682,"text":"你看已經差距人當然要勝天是很困難但是差距這50米的高度不是說你就是順著那個山坡這樣子蓋可以把它處理好的那當然在工程的難度交通部比較專業我們希望說可以設計一個比較比如說跨"},{"start":14047.133,"end":14061.661,"text":"跨山頭的地基加強或是怎麼樣一個設計可以不要每一次就是一有風災一有水災就產生這個明巴克路橋很大的傷害而且這個每一次搶修都會花很多錢我們有沒有辦法說遠見一點然後把這個橋樑的問題可以有"},{"start":14067.95,"end":14085.186,"text":"二十年的任性 三十年的任性有沒有這樣子一個概念我們任性台灣要怎麼做成功所以這個部分我也拜託交通部跟園民會這一陣子當然我們一來是遠近二來是救急救急的部分我們要趕快救"},{"start":14085.926,"end":14102.663,"text":"所以就是說我想這一部分我們高雄市有很多的需求希望說部長跟主委能夠盡快的支持那未來我想我們會繼續的再來要求就是說下一次的會館可能會再排也希望說大家能夠一起來參與趕快解決問題好謝謝主席我們現在換農業部好農業部部長"},{"start":14117.083,"end":14127.892,"text":"委員好謝謝部長就是農業部其實本來就有編就是救助跟利息補貼本來就有編列我們現在又有增加76億對不對"},{"start":14130.751,"end":14138.155,"text":"我們總共是203億然後針對農業設施的話是100.66億救助利息補貼是6 相關重點沒關係 這個細節我們就不論那麼多我們高雄其實本來農損市政府規劃是2.2億規劃以後丹納斯來了後來又洋流來了"},{"start":14153.562,"end":14175.943,"text":"那後來連西南紀流的豪雨所以原來估計的可能還不夠尤其是我們的芭樂香蕉聯路這個傷亡損失非常的慘重所以就是說這個部分也希望說我們高雄市的部分那個部長可以再多撥一點經費因為我們本來估計的2.2億是前面前段那後段又"},{"start":14177.017,"end":14203.155,"text":"還沒補完又開始又受到更大的傷害所以這部分是請部長能夠全力的來支援就是我們這一次的從救助金跟補助跟利息貸款不會因為各縣市報的金額而去分配只要有實際受損的部分我們都會來處理特別是你剛剛說的伯朗伯朗本身有一些往事有沒有那這個部分我們申請那個運往事的補助我們也是從五成提高到八成"},{"start":14203.655,"end":14223.461,"text":"OK 我們首先謝謝農業部就是說包括邱議員包括我我們都有要求就是本來申報的現金補助可以延長農業部也有延長這個也感謝農業部就是能夠因應現實的問題給予農民最大的協助後續的部分我們再一次的要求就是說剛剛部長提到的"},{"start":14224.982,"end":14241.8,"text":"實況可以多的就不要再減了這個部分希望說我們農業部可以積極的來協助我們市政府來協助處理我們農民的災損會 我們持續會跟縣府這邊一起來合作看怎麼樣加快這個腳步OK 這個再拜託農業部多協助好 謝謝"},{"start":14245.031,"end":14249.098,"text":"好謝謝智傑那接著請陳樹業陳樹業陳樹業委員不在那我們接著請蔡育瑜委員執行"},{"start":14268.147,"end":14286.066,"text":"謝謝召委那我們是不是有請農業部部長那以及這個環境部部長以及財政部次長好財政部次長財政部部長有到喔農業部部長還有環境部部長經濟部次長財政部沒有財政部不用經濟部次長"},{"start":14292.008,"end":14313.488,"text":"好 我先就教這個農業部那這一次的丹納斯颱風那這麼強的風我們的溫網市可以說倒很多尤其是在嘉義大概是倒最多的那因為有這麼多的溫網市的倒塌所以現在的重建工程農業部也提供了要有補助八成"},{"start":14314.248,"end":14332.107,"text":"但是在這個補助八成現在有一個比較麻煩的就是有一個時間點的問題就是現在農民他急著想要把他的溫室打起來他打起來他現在就可能要辦貸款他需要貸款可是他也需要這些補助但是補助"},{"start":14332.788,"end":14349.007,"text":"金額還沒有下來等於他要先走貸款那這樣的話等於說他在沒有收入的這段期間他就要先負擔貸款的利息因為他要辦這個免息貸款事實上也要時間所以他等於這段時間是有支出利息了但是他要"},{"start":14349.608,"end":14373.739,"text":"付給他如果要打他就要付頭期款所以我想要跟部長請教說這個補助可不可以做分期的方式或者是可以先幫他去支付頭期款的方式讓想要加速復建的農民可以馬上達到說他就有第一筆錢然後可以去進入這一個他的溫室的一個復建"},{"start":14374.559,"end":14392.744,"text":"我謝謝委員對這個溫室農民的溫室這個部分我們內部也討論過就是只要有核定簽約的話我們就可以付第一筆錢一半幾乎這樣一半的話就去付給他們所以就是分次給他簽約以後分期的概念那這個分次的時間點大概會多久呢就是他簽約的時候就"},{"start":14394.093,"end":14399.998,"text":"因為他有供期嘛他簽約的當下就可以先發布那就可以解決第二個部分就是貸款的部分我們會盡快的啦盡快的去協助他不會讓他說完全沒錢然後也沒辦法施工這樣子那貸款也有貸款的一個狀況因為現在過去可能都是傳統型的一個溫室就是阿公的"},{"start":14415.031,"end":14439.224,"text":"他現在要升級變成力霸型的所以他大概會從90萬提升到180萬每分地但是他們現在貸款的普遍還是認為說要以他原始的你賭什麼你就是交什麼去貸款可是事實上農民想要提升我的設備所以我想要從90提升到180萬就是變成力霸型更穩固的"},{"start":14439.744,"end":14468.861,"text":"那在這樣的一個貸款他就沒有辦法第二個如果我們可以來做這樣的突破的話我們現在跟農會辦理滴滴貸款都必須拿到災害證明後的15天但是現在15天看起來都已經快要到或甚至已經超過了那這方面有辦法做專案來突破嗎我想跟委員報告我已經把它突破了第一個部分就是他舉個例子他原來是塑膠噴網式但是他蓋的時候想要變成粒霸型的"},{"start":14469.261,"end":14497.066,"text":"那後續我們的貸款就是他想要升級的那個那個樣態去做一些核代對 他要升級嘛對 升級的核代這也是我們鼓勵的就是他的設施升級然後第二個部分就是只要拿到災害證明我覺得我也把那個15天取消啦因為現在公所也真的很忙是所以他拿到的負荷量也很大農會的負荷量也是好大對 也是所以我會把這個15天取消只要他拿到災害證明"},{"start":14498.306,"end":14504.907,"text":"然後因為他們有時候會去調整工期嘛工期現在公辦也缺乏第二個是他要在短短的15天內判斷他要貸款可能三四百萬這個對青龍來說也是一個很大的一個我會把這15天把它像昨天我先講我會把它延長甚至於不要在半年之內去申請就可以不要說15天一個月這樣子因為現在太多案子了謝謝部長那我們是有請經濟部"},{"start":14527.25,"end":14552.557,"text":"好 委員好經濟部 次長就是說這一次丹納斯事實上整個復電的一個工程台電非常的辛苦包括台電裡面的員工以及台電的外包就是它的外包商的這一些員工我是希望我們經濟部可以針對這麼辛苦復電的台電給他們特別專案的獎金次長 這個經濟部有辦法來做一個承諾嗎"},{"start":14555.439,"end":14567.314,"text":"我想我們會跟台電這邊來討論一下確實台電同仁這一次非常辛苦動員許多的人力跟物資來全力搶救我想我們會跟台電這邊一起來討論第二點"},{"start":14570.057,"end":14577.059,"text":"因為現在次長你有跟我一起在我們嘉義食安大樓有開了所以事實上有好多的企業尤其是店民的店家他們在這一次的風災中可能銅棒倒了裡面的東西有風吹壞了所以事實上他們有損害那經濟部也很好開了一個過去沒有的就是針對招牌或是他的維生工他營利器具損壞的話就補助他一萬塊"},{"start":14596.246,"end":14621.223,"text":"市長我跟市長呼籲一下因為我在地方聽到的這個要去申請的數量是多的所以我們希望你們在匡列預算的時候在這一筆對於這一些商家的補助勒應該要多匡列一些不要到時候這個預算不足然後又變成很多有申請的最後是申請不到這一點我覺得要注意一下好不好好 謝謝委員好 那環境部再給我一分鐘就好"},{"start":14622.143,"end":14630.066,"text":"我們有很多農業廢棄物現在農業廢棄物我們如果有分類農模地模有分類的話它是屬於可回收的這個是不跟農民收費但是如果是一般的農業廢棄物基本上它是要收費的但是我們知道這次打開之後就落後了"},{"start":14647.133,"end":14670.644,"text":"所以基本上他的農牧都含下的六公元也是都攬做費事實上對於急於慶運急於要復耕的農民來說這部分的負擔很大所以我們絕對部長應該跟各地方公所讓地方公所提出需求我們看公所要怎樣可以來具體協助農民那這一筆錢我們再是不是用特別預算來支出也不要再增加公所的負擔這樣可以嗎"},{"start":14671.584,"end":14691.555,"text":"各位沒問題 這個我們公所需求來跟我們來聯繫都可以好 那我之後會再開幾個協調會就麻煩部長 在環境部的人可以派來我們嘉義來協助我們沒問題好 謝謝謝謝議議委員接著我們請王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員那我們請賴瑞龍 賴瑞龍委員質詢"},{"start":14701.53,"end":14714.574,"text":"好 謝謝召委我先請一下包括經濟部跟農業然後公共工程委員會好嗎好 公共工程委員會還有經濟農業經濟那個經濟次長還有農業部部長"},{"start":14721.425,"end":14749.165,"text":"好 謝謝了主委辛苦了 次長部長辛苦了這一次的這個728的雨量下得相當大這個光整個在高雄8天就累積了2800毫米的這樣的雨量這樣的雨量其實比之88風災也非常的幾乎是毫不遜色的那我認為其實在面對這種極端氣候下的時候恐怕未來政府在這一塊要給予"},{"start":14750.086,"end":14767.386,"text":"更多的一些支持當然要有更新的一些思考包括不管是人員的安全或者是整個包括道路橋樑等等這個在極端氣候下的思考恐怕都必須要有更多新的一些思維那我們也看到了整個這個"},{"start":14769.687,"end":14787.938,"text":"因為整個山區特別雨量相當巨大包括像昨天高雄的臨時又下一場很大的一個豪雨現在這種極端氣候我們面對的挑戰都越來越大但是也更加的考驗政府的一些應變跟能力了那我知道最近幾位都很辛苦那我想先問一下像這個"},{"start":14791.704,"end":14818.47,"text":"我先問一下主委好了好不好主委最近在也在負責很多的山區的一些這個部分包括交通部的也可以一起上來像很多山區這部分這一次遇到很多的一些豪大雨之後那像一些重要的一些道路跟橋樑特別是有一個那馬下的這個民生橋那當時他主委應該也都了解問題就當時他其實是有比較多的淤積那變成了現在只要遇到了豪大雨"},{"start":14819.15,"end":14845.668,"text":"到零了之後他幾乎等於是要被幾乎是等於完全被封掉了那我問一下主委包括部長好不好 交通部長這一塊的橋的部分這個會納入到這一次的整個預算裡面給予來新建的經費嗎報告委員 這是交通部有一個道路與交通那是不是請部長來跟你說明好 那部長講一下好了 謝謝報告委員 這個部分有放進來了"},{"start":14846.587,"end":14872.769,"text":"有放進來了那預定什麼時候可以來開始來動工我們都已經進入在設計了那大概什麼時候可以來開始來動工這個我會後再提供給委員這個盡快加速因為現在那馬俠這邊很辛苦因為他這個橋面主委跟部長應該也都看過他橋面變成淤積的非常厲害的所以只要好大雨甚至颱風來幾乎等於是整個村子幾乎是沒辦法進出"},{"start":14873.169,"end":14898.821,"text":"因為安全性的考量不敢讓它進出那變成整個就會影響到它幾乎是被封在那個地方那唯一能夠改善的方法大概只有興建橋樑而已那我希望這一塊請部長跟主委因為主委負責總統籌的也請部長能夠加速來這個興建好不好讓他們這個新的橋能夠來來進速來興建完成要不然的話恐怕在未來的"},{"start":14900.522,"end":14923.417,"text":"只要遇到好大雨只要遇到颱風幾乎大概這個橋段都要封的啦那幾乎等於他們進出都受到很大影響所以這個很優先啦所以再拜託部長有納進來那也拜託主委再大力的督促加快整個工程的進行這對納馬蝦原鄉會非常的重要啦那再來我是不是也問一下農業部好了不好農業部這邊也請教一下"},{"start":14924.998,"end":14953.074,"text":"這一次我們在看到很多地方的它的一些災情的時候其實它是整個野溪包括周邊的一些整個坍塌下來所導致的狀況我在這個位置上面它其實本來是一條溪流那基本上是整個完全兩側的部分幾乎是整個坍塌掉了部長這未來用什麼方式比較好的一個處理我想我們在這次特別預算裡面針對農水路還有這些土石流造成的這些波地的一些我們都有編列預算去處理"},{"start":14954.575,"end":14969.648,"text":"整個預算的編列如果是在土石流的部分大概是51億左右然後如果說包括如果說水利設施的話大概25億所以加起來大概有70多億來處理這個部分所以後續我們會根據地方政府報也好或是我們"},{"start":14970.549,"end":14997.208,"text":"不同的委員有建議的部分我們都會去限干然後公共公眾委員會之前也針對縣市政府的需求提出來了所以這個部分我們會盡快來處理因為像這個部分看到現在兩邊的連房子幾乎都淹沒了所以我覺得這一塊面對這種極端氣候的話這個未來要能夠再來優先來思考做一些處理因為這邊的里長跟我說每次只要好大雨大概幾乎都這樣"},{"start":14998.349,"end":15026.128,"text":"蘇郡挖完了再挖堆到旁邊去然後如果沒有清蘇下來的話那一樣在那個地點那一樣下次好大雨來一樣就繼續沖刷掉所以整條野溪完全失去了功能好不好這個我希望部長把這幾個地點這六個的幾個地點把它能夠確切的在現場做一些處理我們希望能夠有效的去根治這些問題好這個部分我想我們會盡快的來看怎麼樣現勘的部分以後再來因為極端氣候的因素現在幾次的颱風"},{"start":15028.489,"end":15047.087,"text":"不管是整個這一次颱風從台南嘉義上來造成重大的一些損害都很異常包括好大雨也造成很多的一些中南部的農損的一些狀況我也希望未來這一塊能夠依照當時賴總統所講的原則從寬 從幽 從速 從簡的原則來處理這次有幾個我也拜託部長加速來處理"},{"start":15052.491,"end":15077.637,"text":"農民的感受就很深刻你遇到災難的時候像有一個是已經截止了要登記截止了然後我們請部長就延後那包括有幾個是沒有納進來的我們請部長之後能夠加快地方政府的速度甚至由中央直接認定而做處理那個對於農民都很有感那現在極端氣候下我們也希望未來在這樣的施政上面能夠更加的有感 好不好"},{"start":15078.488,"end":15096.135,"text":"我想跟委員報告這次從丹拉斯颱風到楊柳颱風整個農業的災損如果是樹暴的部分已經將近43億那推估實際的損失大概是超過100多億所以我們是用同理心的角度去協助來農民能夠快我們就盡量來處理好"},{"start":15098.316,"end":15126.635,"text":"謝謝那最後一個山區的部分原鄉的山區它的簡易自來水這次也受到很大的一些重創經濟部這邊我也希望這一塊他們三個區都已經有報計畫上來的我也希望能夠加速來協助如果連基本的民生的自來水這個至少該給予他們協助的要盡快來完成好不好沒有自來水可用是很麻煩的一件事情好不好這我也希望計畫都報上來的請經濟部能夠大力來支持好 謝謝"},{"start":15128.436,"end":15132.718,"text":"謝謝賴瑞榮委員那下一位請賴惠元委員質詢謝謝主席有請那個經濟部次長那個鄭文森董事長農業部部長還有農金屬署長黃健部還有教育部"},{"start":15152.057,"end":15157.243,"text":"經濟部次長還有台電董事長農業部部長農經署署長還有教育部教育部部長環境部以及環境部不好意思"},{"start":15167.742,"end":15196.075,"text":"非常感謝感謝在現場的各位同仁其實這一次那個丹納斯颱風重創我們整個台南這個120年從來沒有見過的這樣的颱風直接從西部這樣上來其實整體來講我真的是15個行政區是重災區那我的"},{"start":15198.547,"end":15212.103,"text":"我的選區就是11個選區在這裡頭我非常感謝感謝大家真的你們的付出讓我們的災民即使受到了很大的一個溫暖"},{"start":15213.683,"end":15232.257,"text":"我想在這裡我還是要深深的感謝大家因為在這個一個半夜裡頭我們看到了不管颱風發生之前還有之後那就是在整個救災指揮中心的一個住進都給我們很大的一個鼓勵"},{"start":15233.837,"end":15246.189,"text":"有一天我跟蔡宇委員就是在7月6號的時候我告訴他說我們家的屋頂都被催了催了兩萬多戶他告訴我說我們家連屋頂都沒在後來我才知道說"},{"start":15250.874,"end":15268.304,"text":"我的屋頂在的時候是我真正的一個困難的一個開始在這裡特別跟曾經的指揮官還有兩位副指揮官易德跟孟彥謝謝你們解除了我們很多的在地的一個困難在這裡我要特別跟經濟部次長講"},{"start":15270.501,"end":15295.556,"text":"這個我們經濟部編列了編列了在這個場那個產花署裡頭編列了一個1億1億的一個資金裡頭那事實上就誠如蔡議員講的張牌跟維生的一個區區那這個製造業跟服務業要分這個1億市長我跟你講這個是嚴嚴不足的所以我希望你增加你的你的這個"},{"start":15297.581,"end":15324.842,"text":"你的預算那還有特別我要跟那個經濟部特別特別再提起為什麼我跟蔡以一直不斷的在跟那個鄭文森董事長一直在講說你的第一線搶修人員的實質獎勵金跟資源機制你要出來啊總統去了也是告訴大家我們都知道台電這一次如果不是大家"},{"start":15325.663,"end":15340.714,"text":"付出了這麼多 犧牲了這麼多這個宮殿沒有辦法這麼快所以我覺得不是說你們回去研議你們就要爽爽快快的答應我們啊不然後拜台上又招考沒人要去考了啦真的啦 這個實在是"},{"start":15345.458,"end":15361.866,"text":"第一線的搶修人員這個冒著風雨的危險還有生命的危險那個真的我就說台灣最美麗的風景就是我們看到台電黃色的這個小工程車在我的大街小巷裡頭這個就是台灣最美麗的風景"},{"start":15363.767,"end":15387.033,"text":"我跟你講市長你大概沒有辦法感受到說我們每一次進到災區的時候我們看到了那些破碎的情形我們每一次看到災民無所不求的希望我們協助他不要再考慮了增加你的經費我們會全力的支持你好不好那董事長你有聽到囉你有聽到了好那接著我們請那個農業部部長"},{"start":15390.919,"end":15410.469,"text":"部長也要非常謝謝你這一次你全力的支持我們的農業不管是在畜牧產業還是在淺品項的一個農業產業的開放可是有一段真的就是要請你再好好的想一下就是專案的加碼這個第二筆的農家綜合貸款"},{"start":15415.191,"end":15436.845,"text":"在你就是這麼善意的一個幫助我們所有的災民你們把這一個災情所有就是災民可以就是那個申請到那是不是有機會有機會就是說我們把那個年限延長年限延長就是說因為你告訴我嘛你說你有一筆"},{"start":15438.806,"end":15463.317,"text":"一倍提出一個計畫就是說大概是1.9億那這個是比那個農業那個農家的綜合貸款利率這個1.9億更好的一個計畫案那我們希望就是說你在原有的這個農家企業貸款這邊我們把年限延長然後把利息降低那你在未來未來就要提供了這一個計畫"},{"start":15464.557,"end":15487.363,"text":"是不是可以讓更多的金額進來而不是1.9億而已我覺得這樣子顯然沒有辦法很直接就是照顧到我們的農業那個部長請回答我想非常謝謝委員提出這樣的一個想法那我們也一直在思考那我現在遇到一個比較大的困擾我們在研議的就是因為特別預算是到明年年底"},{"start":15488.403,"end":15511.961,"text":"所以很多預算的資因必須到明年年底就卡住了那我希望說我現在設計的我們現在用所謂的農業綜合貸款它是常態性的那常態性的話它是五年可是我跟你講你這個常態性你事實上你的那個金額太少了你不要是1.9億對 所以我會用另外一個方式我提出來類似加計收轉局的概念"},{"start":15512.341,"end":15540.064,"text":"我跟你講是不是可以加碼到6億這個是我拜託你的那個我環境部部長部長再一次拜託你就是說我的石棉瓦的部分這個6.9億的預算顯然是不夠希望再增加因為你現在只照顧到一般的住戶還有就是我們的農畜牧業是不是可以把我們的事業體也一併的納進來這以上是對大家的一個拜託謝謝"},{"start":15541.125,"end":15552.261,"text":"謝謝委員我們已經納入了謝謝好謝謝賴會員委員好那下一位請林黛華委員質詢"},{"start":15554.161,"end":15560.627,"text":"林大華委員不在請武麗華委員不在請陳超明委員不在請魯明哲委員不在請邱毅英委員不在"},{"start":15579.565,"end":15584.548,"text":"請黃建斌委員黃建斌委員黃建斌委員不在請徐富奎委員質詢謝謝主席有請我們經濟部何次長台電曾董事長農業部陳部長好請經濟部何次長台電董事長那還有什麼"},{"start":15607.099,"end":15627.958,"text":"薛恩好農業部陳部長大家辛苦了我想這一次我們還是要針對整個台灣的電纜的一個韌性的部分還是要請我們經濟部跟台電要多幫忙我想曾董事長去年我們屏東遭逢好幾個颱風之後"},{"start":15629.139,"end":15651.347,"text":"我想第一時間我也約他到我們這個林邊家東跟我們養殖的一個漁民座談那當時大家關心的議題就是電纜地下化的一個設置的一個時程跟一個方式那當時我知道當然曾董事長這個有一些的思考的想法跟做法啦那尤其是今年我看今年8月16號我們卓院長"},{"start":15653.348,"end":15669.219,"text":"也正式在對外有講說請我們這個經濟部跟台電針對全國電纜地下化的掀起評估的作業我想有做這樣的一個宣示那請問一下市長或董事長目前我們規劃的期程怎麼進行"},{"start":15670.165,"end":15686.564,"text":"那個跟委員報告就是說那個電網強烈的事情我們一直我們會更加速的來做那其實我們在沿海餘溫的一些做法上其實去年我們做了一些新的變化我想你應該有感受到就是最近這次颱風來"},{"start":15687.745,"end":15710.374,"text":"其實更換過的電感其實就有擋住颱風意思是說我們用不同的方法做但整體的規劃早上我有承諾過我們會在兩個月內提一個初步的整體的規劃出來但它不是全部地下化就整個強韌因為包含我們這次提的特別預算也是一部分地下化一部分我們加強電感的強度來減少導斷"},{"start":15712.955,"end":15738.76,"text":"董事長因為前幾天我們的鄉親還在問我這個問題那當然因為他們看到小琉球也感謝台電的支持小琉球已經先做了小琉球全線都全島都電纜地下化那包含我們的平和公路在蘇貞昌院長的時候我想這個都經歷颱風的肆虐之後都確保我們的用電安全所以大家都期待這樣一個電纜地下化的案子能夠持續推動但是當然沿海區域的一個這個低化的一個問題還有所謂的一個維修的問題"},{"start":15741.56,"end":15759.887,"text":"當初你有 我覺得有問題就要提至於說那個企產怎麼規劃 路程怎麼樣去進行我想大家都可以來配合 但是一定要有進度出來不然每次回到訪台 大家就煩惱 就怕了那尤其是我們這個養殖區這個目前台17線也在進行這個規劃了我想這部分我們都要持續來做對 台17線是我們要規劃的"},{"start":15767.276,"end":15780.006,"text":"董事長因為我知道我們後來包含訪寮也有一些的案子但是後來因為你們說經費不足那如果現在經費到位之後原本一些規劃的案子能不能持續在推動進行我們整個台17線都會整個來規劃訪寮大莊這邊那個 東海這邊那個因為上一次是應該是三坨的時候有傾斜"},{"start":15789.178,"end":15807.225,"text":"那傾斜的那一個部分的狀況我們如果可以來但是因為它旁邊就是餘溫餘溫通常地下水會比較高但是如果可以坐在路的中間不要靠邊上那這個我們要跟公路單位做一些協調這個我已經請交通部陳部長跟公路局長來協助了我們趕快把介面搭起來趕快來做處理好的好 謝謝那我們請陳部長"},{"start":15812.886,"end":15835.494,"text":"部長我想您的業務很繁重那當然就是我還是特別提到上次我在諮詢院長的時候我們還是要求這個整個治山防洪要整個都在您的部裡面包含從林保署也好水保署也好到這個整個我們區排的部分我想有很多需要農業部大力的支持部長能不能承諾一下我們整個在"},{"start":15836.474,"end":15859.49,"text":"整個治山防洪的這個部分能夠做一個有效的一個系統的一個整治不要切香腸的處理方式我跟委員報告就是在這次的特別預算裡面我們針對了大概治山防洪農水路還有一些波地土石流防災的部分大概編了大概71到72億然後我們年度的預算跟治山防洪有關的年度預算大概是120億所以我們不會說現在的"},{"start":15863.172,"end":15874.764,"text":"現在問題是因為風災了就用特別預算其他的不用所以我們會把我們整體的經費做有效的運用然後是以災區的這些相關的土質流崩塌的還有需要去處理的部分我們來優先處理"},{"start":15876.204,"end":15893.184,"text":"這個我們也會請我們縣政府來做配合把整個從山區到我們平地要做一個完整的一個處理對 我們其中的我剛才說的我們在這支裡面大概有將近76.82億是跟農水路或是跟置贓房有關的是會請地方政府來執行"},{"start":15894.765,"end":15923.745,"text":"另外我還要提一個問題我們北市寮有一個海水供應站是我們屏東縣最早的供應站但是輸用30年了最近因為丹納斯颱風造成這個取水管線斷裂然後大量的泥沙也造成抽水馬達一個損害這部分我們請縣政府提報保留到什麼來補助一下我們的經費好我再請我們的那個應該是水路署去看一下那個漁業署去看一下看那個經費到底規模多大我們再來看怎麼樣處理"},{"start":15924.445,"end":15927.45,"text":"好那我最後一個問題要請我們內政部劉部長謝謝陳部長劉部這兩個問題兩個部會都在作為處理"},{"start":15938.983,"end":15956.031,"text":"兩位部長那個我們恆春有個龍鸞潭它是我們一個很重要的一個濕地也是一個後兩的一個棲地但是它也是一個恆春半島這個滯洪的一個很重要的一個水域因為這一次的颱風我們發現因為它的原本的淤積太過嚴重"},{"start":15956.991,"end":15986.103,"text":"造成它的這個容量有限所以造成恆春市區大淹水那我們有希望在不影響生態的狀況之下因為這也是農水署很重要一個灌溉的一個來源能不能由墾管處跟農水署怎麼樣來搭配在不影響到生態狀況之下應該要做有效一個清淤然後能夠協助這樣子一個防洪治洪的一個功能我想這個部分是我們農林水利署在負責管轄特別是在當作灌溉用的所以這個部分的清淤我想我們農"},{"start":15987.063,"end":15989.825,"text":"農水組這邊會來處理然後需要其他部位的話我們會請其他部位來支援那個沒有問題我們可以協助"},{"start":15996.947,"end":16017.379,"text":"那我想這個騎乘因為我們有一些猴鳥的這個生態的他們考量所以我們怎麼樣把騎乘抓好然後在不影響這個生態保育的狀況之下這一定要做要不然我這強降雨這個瞬間雨量那麼大恆春市區大淹水這個小桃不離啦這要特別拜託一下那我也找時間把相關部位都找來我們一起來會勘協調一下"},{"start":16020.161,"end":16042.121,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝護魁謝謝那個農業部長如果是在這一次的災情都那個蓄水池都可以透過那個農水署來清一的話那我們那邊有很多我們再把資料送上來對因為我想我們這個部分好像特別是一些農田關內的一些蓄水池如果需要去清一的話我想我們會會來那個看委員有什麼樣我們可以"},{"start":16043.322,"end":16050.75,"text":"謝謝 謝謝部長那我們接著請高津素梅高津素梅 高津素梅委員不在吳祺銘 吳祺銘 吳祺銘委員不在接著我們請歡迎委員質詢"},{"start":16064.205,"end":16076.156,"text":"感謝朝委有請教育部正部長跟彭署長國教署好教育部那個教育部部長還有那個國教署署長委員好"},{"start":16088.685,"end":16109.977,"text":"部長午安今天有兩小題要跟您請教第一個是關於這次丹納斯颱風災情嚴重剛剛很多位委員都有提到多個縣市有很多災情其中跟教育相關的是各縣市有蠻多縣市的連續停班停課多日"},{"start":16110.917,"end":16135.82,"text":"雖然是暑假但是很多學校都還是在上輔導課所以想跟部長跟署長討論一個教師權益的公平性的問題今年3月教育部有一個解釋令讓領終點費的教學資源人員如果遇到颱風天上班上課被停止的時候可以依照原來排定授課的結束彈性之領終點費"},{"start":16137.621,"end":16141.404,"text":"不會讓這些老師因為颱風假收入頓時減少這是一個很用意良好的解釋令只是我們發現這個解釋令沒有擴及到同樣領終點費的兼任教師跟待課教師"},{"start":16155.936,"end":16173.003,"text":"那他們呢就會因為颱風假尤其是連續颱風假領不到這個薪水這個部分的薪水那其實就造成一個教育現場有不同的終點費同一個颱風天那是很不公平的狀況所以我第一個部分很簡單下一頁請問部長"},{"start":16176.184,"end":16195.494,"text":"教師終點費的知己是不是可以在校園中有同樣的標準不要因為兼任代課教師他的身份使得同樣是颱風架他就完全沒有收入可以領這部分是不是我也有用預算案來提出不知道部長是不是可以就今天承諾"},{"start":16196.568,"end":16220.371,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心我們這些第一線上的這些老師因為天災或者一些其他不可抗拒的因素的一些前意上我想這個我覺得委員所提的是合理的我基本上我們樂觀其成也希望能夠跟地方政府能夠建立有一個共識能夠希望對老師因為來自於"},{"start":16221.812,"end":16251.024,"text":"天然在不可抗拒的對他的許多的授課上這個權益上的一些這個可能的一些影響那謝謝部長那唯有預算案我們就一起處理謝謝您的承諾好那再來呢也是跟一個教師權有關的下一頁那我想部長應該知道我一直關心代理教師的問題因為代理教師如果沒有被照顧到那他們等於很可能就是未來的教師流失之後對我們教育現場非常的不好"},{"start":16251.684,"end":16268.735,"text":"那本周一就是8月25号教育部有发一个新闻稿回应媒体就是媒体报道说全国目前有2600个教师职缺的问题那教育部的新闻稿说缺额没有那么多那实质上是你们说是1429位"},{"start":16282.145,"end":16296.84,"text":"新聞稿寫得很好很有道理但是我要提醒的是這一個月來在大法官釋憲之後代理教師原本就依照年資可以採取血腥制度這個制度上路以來"},{"start":16297.521,"end":16314.968,"text":"基層教師蓄心爭議頻傳可是國教署一直沒有處理我認為這個新聞稿跟實質上國教署的我們看到的行為好像沒有在處理誘因因為你今天讓代理教師沒有一個公平的制度蓄心"},{"start":16316.068,"end":16332.856,"text":"當不下去了你反而就流失了未來的正職老師權益保障很重要我們來看一下我辦公室接到多少陳情有這些狀況明明你們的虛心辦法說跨縣市代理私校年資都被採記可是他們都被拒絕"},{"start":16333.576,"end":16352.904,"text":"年資證明標準不一要他繳交離職證明服務成績優良證明後還有繳交考評會記錄這根本不是當年離開的代理教師有辦法拿到的資料還有一些學校廢校停辦無法取得證明你們說可以去找地方教育局教育局也沒有協助還有呢"},{"start":16353.504,"end":16369.22,"text":"就是當年沒有成績優良證明就變成不予採記那你們的辦法說幼兒園研資也是可是基層的人士不知道為什麼都看不到你們的公文完全拒絕他們那我要講的事情是為什麼我今天要來質詢夏業"},{"start":16371.499,"end":16398.597,"text":"如果我的辦公室詢問你們可以解決的話我今天就不用再提出來了我們辦公室詢問你們國教署是不是發一個統一說明認定基準譬如有個案例事宜嘛 案例事宜結果你們的回答是說提敘相關制度已施行多年因不深認定爭議這麼多爭議了你們說沒有認定爭議我們辦公室詢問說現在有大量認定爭議是否有減變的申訴機制"},{"start":16399.798,"end":16421.856,"text":"你們回給我們的文說請依教師法申訴程序申訴或者是還鼓勵他們找教師會或行政單位溝通那我覺得這樣子會讓大家感受到跟你們的新聞稿不一致你都要地方政府對他們友善了可是國教署明明可以統一發文涵釋案例事宜的卻沒有做那是不是"},{"start":16422.657,"end":16444.319,"text":"就三个诉求第一个尽速发函制作案例示意不要让基层的老师无所适从第二个能不能有一个快速有效的申诉窗口第三个是不是严密评估代理教师有一个统一的年资提报系统那这三个是不是能够有些可以直接做到的有些评估的一个月内给本席书面报告好不好"},{"start":16445.373,"end":16466.604,"text":"好 最後一步提供書面報告謝謝委員的關心我想委員所關心的都是非常合理事實上我最近也在星期一也在板橋跟以北部的這些老師這一個基層老師座談我接著還會在中部 南部跟離島的老師座談我希望"},{"start":16467.765,"end":16482.41,"text":"第一線上的老師的許多的權益包括許多的可能給教育部在制度上可以給更多的支持一個合理的專業讓他能夠展現專業好好的在人才培養謝謝部長也請國教署長督導一下不要這麼的官僚式的回應行政的部我們來敬請謝謝委員謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":16494.834,"end":16503.499,"text":"請王世堅委員質詢王世堅 王世堅委員不在郭益晴 郭益晴委員對不起那個王振旭王振旭委員質詢謝謝主席主席有點累了那就麻煩環境部彭部長經濟部和次長"},{"start":16524.259,"end":16525.646,"text":"環境部跟經濟部次長"},{"start":16532.935,"end":16562.435,"text":"委員好部長好 次長好今天有兩個問題來請教我相信今天一定很多委員都有提出類似的問題那我就把我的問題全部都說明一次以後再麻煩兩位一起來做回答第一個部分就是有關於光電板的災後應變處置跟一些清潔復原機制還有大型光電板的總體檢這是第一部分第二部分就是災後的環境清潔跟防疫的部分"},{"start":16565.317,"end":16592.175,"text":"對不起我們看得出來就是在這次的風災裡面光電板的傷害非常非常的明顯而且非常的巨大也引起民眾蠻多的恐慌尤其到後面好像清潔的部分一直沒有辦法如期的完成所以對民眾來講壓力是蠻大的那部長 彭部長也針對這個未來這個光電板出現了漏洞應該要有什麼好的方式來做處理"},{"start":16593.255,"end":16621.096,"text":"那漏洞在哪里改善的方向在哪里大家可以从这个荧幕上很容易看到包括副部长所提出来一个日常缺理的缺失风灾防护标准的不足灾害应变的不足还有灾后清理缺乏计划等等当然一个补偿也是后续要处理的部分这个都是未来我们要面对这个漏洞如何来改善的地方那这个当然需要从各个部会各个面向一起来处理"},{"start":16621.756,"end":16636.449,"text":"我們也了解在這個過程裡面事實上真的是需要進行一次的總體檢這個總體檢當然工程應該不會太小包括當地的地方政府還有如果有牽涉到"},{"start":16637.29,"end":16666.135,"text":"台塘的這些土地的利用的話這個其實大家相關單位都應該要一起來協助所以針對這部分我們有一個比較具體的建議希望能夠讓各個部會來參考包括說在這個過程裡面要檢討修正合約範本跟準則一開始的時候一定經濟部這邊都有跟相關的廠商訂了合約來明確責任跟處置第二部分就是總體檢要涉及跨部會的"},{"start":16666.875,"end":16693.146,"text":"方面務必要妥善的協調分工包括地方政府 中央政府等等的都應該要共同來努力處理第三個就是檢討光電板災害處理合理的費用以及納災的可能性因為一開始我們沒有想到風災會這麼樣的強烈導致之前的納災寶好像並沒有把它考量進來往後如果持續有這個問題的話應該要怎麼具體的處理"},{"start":16696.207,"end":16711.092,"text":"那這部分可能到時候再麻煩確認一個時間點讓所有的部會委員會都能夠讓委員們共同來參考那最後一項就是有關於這個加強災後環境整潔跟這個疫情的防治"},{"start":16711.852,"end":16739.546,"text":"最近也有報導知道說高雄已經出現了本土的登革熱那氣溫還是非常的高所以再加上這個雨量多等等相關的這些風險傳染的風險都非常的高所以要麻煩彭部長針對於三個部分來加強第一個就是加強宣導跟協助清除積水的容器第二部分就是提供必要的資源來落實環境清潔的消毒第三個就是要協助"},{"start":16740.106,"end":16747.163,"text":"完善的清潔防護設備不管是跟疾管署還有跟地方政府都共同的來努力以上兩個問題再麻煩部長跟次長一起來說明"},{"start":16751.884,"end":16773.155,"text":"謝謝王委員這個說明其實跟我們看到的現象其實是差不了多元所以未來我們會對這個光天業者會朝這幾個具體建立的一個方向我們來跟這個光天業者來做一些要求那包括一些納保或是"},{"start":16773.996,"end":16785.873,"text":"要求他在合約上面要有承擔一些未來有一些災損的部分的責任我想這個部分我們都可以來跟環境部還有相關部會來配合"},{"start":16788.913,"end":16815.425,"text":"我們會全力的配合經濟部來對於光電特別是他的清除管理的計畫他有沒有落實我們會協助他們來進行這樣的體檢另外剛剛委員提到的環境衛生特別是登革熱的疫情我們現在很積極我們都有派人到各地去巡查跟地方環保局在合作噴灑的部分衛生的部分也積極在進行不過其實現在因為今年像昨天也有幾例在發生我們會特別的再來"},{"start":16816.365,"end":16830.914,"text":"加強這樣的工作 謝謝那請問這個總體檢預計要花多少時間我們可以得到報告跟委員報告我們現在水面的部分那個已經都檢查完了大概應該好"},{"start":16833.778,"end":16849.738,"text":"我跟委員報告一下那個水面性寒藏我們大概都檢查過了那缺失就跟該委員報告差不多那我們會給他兩個月時間去做改善我們會去復檢 以上報告兩個月是好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝曾區委員接著請郭益勤委員質詢"},{"start":16862.54,"end":16875.586,"text":"好謝謝主席有請教育部部長請教育部部長教育教育部對教育部對有請委員好"},{"start":16887.662,"end":16904.831,"text":"好 部長辛苦了我想這個即將開學在即就是9月1號其實下個禮拜之後其實全台灣的所有的學校即將都要開學那迎接新的一個學期其實這次這個災後的校園的一個重建其實不只是硬體的一個修復啦"},{"start":16905.191,"end":16934.002,"text":"那是不是也能夠在整個修復的過程當中保障學生全體師生的一個安全其實也是至關重要的那但是呢根據我們這一次的這個校安的通報那總財損的部分呢是高達了有六億四千多萬但是呢這是有校安通報的其實還包含其他沒有校安通報的一個數量那我想呢災害是全國性而且是跨行政區的那不只有在一些特定的一個縣市啦"},{"start":16934.542,"end":16962.251,"text":"所以我想要問的就是說有一些潛災的損害並沒有被納入所謂的考量比方說它可能是事後才會浮現所謂的災害的一個現象包含操場它可能現在當下看起來好像狀況是OK可是也許在不同的天候之後它可能也是因為這樣有一些地質上的一些改變或延遲性的一些故障那這些沒有被納入的我們之後要怎麼樣來處理"},{"start":16965.42,"end":16985.759,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的關心確實我們這一次各地方主要的這個南部中南部的所報的災損事實上是超過就委員所說的這個有五六億那我們已經教育部國教署裡面已經優先用這個處理全國的一個高中已經"},{"start":16986.5,"end":17006.7,"text":"全部都 全部補助有7000多萬包括部分的中小學我們自己已經實際這個支持了有超過1億元那這一次的一個特別預算裡面災區我們再申請了一個我們是4億那超過的這2億多要從哪裡來做分配或是怎麼樣處理"},{"start":17008.121,"end":17027.25,"text":"因為我們整個所有的一個災損的統計是6億4千多萬但是我們的特別預算的部分是編了4億是 4億 是那其他的我們已經都先既有的一些經費裡面優先處理了那至於剛才委員所關心的說有一些確實有一些可能因為時間以後才一段時間以後它凸顯的一些問題我們也都會"},{"start":17032.612,"end":17053.919,"text":"這一個按照這一個工程會跟還有教育部他可以行這一個還是可以這一個來提報然後我們還是會去現場這一個了解然後給你支持來改善好所以現在已經都在盤點也在規劃其他的縣市那因為其實這個修復其實需要時間是的但是因為即將又要開學"},{"start":17055.179,"end":17076.787,"text":"因為在整個修復的人力或者是物資的投入的情況之下其實可能各個縣市都在搶都在搶工 在搶人這個部分我們有辦法可以克服讓學生能夠儘早在學校的校園生活開學的同時能夠盡快恢復正常就是這個部分我們怎麼樣如期的運作不會影響他們的教學品質"},{"start":17077.287,"end":17102.427,"text":"是跟我們報告確實我們確實是這樣有立即性的我們已經大概七八月都處理完那屬於工程端的部分當然他需要一些時間那至於像學校裡面基本上他這一個開學大概都能夠正常的一個開學這一個部分我想我們在國教署教育部跟地方縣市教育局處都充分掌握那偏遠學校的部分呢偏遠學校的部分呢"},{"start":17102.907,"end":17127.967,"text":"都一樣如果有一些比較正確的盤點跟時程可以再麻煩提供因為今天時間有限有掛一錄萬這個也歡迎委員隨時把這個資料給我們來處理好 謝謝部長接下來其實文化部的部分我可能要請教一下次長的部分部長請回 謝謝好 文化部我想延伸一下因為今天時間最後一點點的時間好"},{"start":17133.925,"end":17153.714,"text":"市長好委員好我想這個文化資產的一個修復也是同樣的一個道理不管是我們的古蹟或者是歷史的一個建物或者是這個聚落的一個重建等等這次的風災其實也相對的嚴重那我們來看一下這個去年的例子去年不管是凱米或者是山陀鵝其實我們有四處"},{"start":17154.654,"end":17174.128,"text":"目前規劃是有四處比方說像新竹的五天佑紀念碑雲林的警察局的救助社群另外還有雲林的北城國小宿舍群另外還有這個屏東書院等等那看到這四件是去年的風災要重建的一個名單那目前這四件當中只有"},{"start":17174.568,"end":17198.502,"text":"其中一件只有屏東書院有完工那其他三個依舊是沒有辦法再加上因為我們的限時是降師嚴重不足那緊接著下來我們有很多地方的一個文物的修復其實有可能會在進程上會有所延宕這個部分可以簡短回答然後之後再給我書面的一些報告可以嗎"},{"start":17200.113,"end":17220.772,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們降師不足的現象我們現在研擬的方式是會用以修代訓的方式等於是有一個降師然後帶領一些還在學習中的進到場域裡頭去這樣可以擴大我們修復的量能"},{"start":17221.953,"end":17237.383,"text":"因為今天真的是時間不夠但是我相信其實不管是流標缺工或者是物料上漲這個連連的問題其實都存在文化部要怎麼樣來確保在修復的工作要如期如值的完成這個部分事後再提供給我們謝謝議請委員接著我們請林業請委員質詢"},{"start":17252.266,"end":17260.254,"text":"主席麻煩內政部那個劉世芳部長還有經濟部次長何進昌次長好 內政部跟經濟部次長"},{"start":17267.416,"end":17285.993,"text":"因為上個月的丹納斯颱風重創公民團體也講說大概有三個很特別的現象是有史以來大致上是登陸台灣西半部最強的颱風也是"},{"start":17287.074,"end":17296.994,"text":"整個的十級風暴然後壟罩台南大概將近四個小時所以這次事實上是創下台南氣候戰以來百年歷史最強"},{"start":17298.965,"end":17320.576,"text":"第三名我們因為這麼嚴重就要編列預算編列預算目前救災的所要經費預算大概693億元其中61億元就是各級機關原有的編列32億元是分配在支付救助金跟上工津貼後續的要用到600億"},{"start":17322.637,"end":17345.902,"text":"那怎麼去花這筆錢甚至我現在來問的是一個相關的一些議題也覺得這次颱風呢對嘉南海線地區的房舍事實上是百年的大考驗那加上當地的房舍都比較老舊所以房屋的整個修繕事實上的問題也很大所以媒體說7月17的報導有提到有1.6萬戶的"},{"start":17350.743,"end":17369.796,"text":"房屋屋頂全掀了然後半掀颱風剛走大雨又來襲又經歷到7月28號的大雨過後的媒體就指出說嘉南地區超過3萬戶所以請教一下部長請問這次本市風災 水災大概影響的房舍統計大概有多少戶"},{"start":17372.423,"end":17392.046,"text":"因為媒體講是3萬我不知道你們後來有去我們現在統計上的資料大約是3萬4千多戶目前修繕的戶數已經達到百分之多少有600億的預算在沒有通過的狀況底下政府發放災民的房屋修繕的補助金是從哪裡來是中央貼補還是地方"},{"start":17392.848,"end":17413.75,"text":"都有跟委員報告一下其實在這個600億的特別預算如果通過之後當然能夠加速這個房屋的修繕或是其他相關的一個應變或者是減災的措施但是在強風暴雨過後其實地方政府跟中央政府都有投入包括災準金或者是包括那個現在行政院用的這個"},{"start":17414.751,"end":17428.715,"text":"特別統籌慰問金的部分發放災戶的家園慰住金所以行政院其實在第一時間內就用特統的方式先發放這一部分這是用特統的預算就沒有納入600億預算之內"},{"start":17431.136,"end":17448.748,"text":"除了房屋修繕以外的話災民要搬家還有租屋這些等等安置的費用是中央還是地方來做貼補中央為主其實我們在第一時間內就是說如果他受到強風暴雨沒有辦法住在原來的地方其實他可以住在外面"},{"start":17449.468,"end":17471.136,"text":"那不管是避難收容或是住在別人的家裡我們在那個內政部的國土署都有推出這個租金的補貼那如果是受災戶在特殊狀況下的租金補貼還有高達1.2倍所以事實上在颱風過後的那段時間內也就是說家屋有受損無法居住的時候目前為止不管是依親或者是住在旅館"},{"start":17472.156,"end":17500.322,"text":"或者是住在我們可以這個分佈可以知道他住在什麼地方的話在租金補貼或是其他的收容安置的話大概都有可以有這樣的備變措施那其實我也非常感謝包括像慈濟功德會或者是其他台積電的這些救援團體他們在第一時間內都有幫忙這些災戶在短暫的時間內受到這個驚嚇了這些人可以得到一些慰助所以我們也非常感謝地方團體的幫忙"},{"start":17501.562,"end":17520.788,"text":"部長看起來中央真的支應非常多的事情在救災工作上非常用心可是也要問說目前大概因為整個工程在房屋的整個的災區修繕房屋的這樣重建所以勞動部有講說也同意要派遣移工進駐那現在到底有沒有人力上的問題"},{"start":17522.689,"end":17545.147,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實行政院的院長也在第一時間內就指定公共工程委員會的陳金德主委到下面做前進指揮的工作那也請李孟彥來幫忙還有幾位都是相當多的部會幫忙那災後缺工缺料在剛一開始的時候確實有這個困擾但是目前為止我想已經"},{"start":17546.468,"end":17572.823,"text":"所以缺工缺料的問題也解決了嗎因為本來要問經濟部大致上的狀況我是不是可以請我們國土署長來跟你做一下補充說明好嗎好 感謝委員詢問因為第一時間當然對這些屋頂來講本來在地的相關的鐵工或者是專門修屋頂的工人本來就不足那工班也缺少所以我們才會在第一時間先訂定一個上工津貼然後接下來"},{"start":17573.703,"end":17600.021,"text":"再由前進指揮所這邊也邀請了中央各工程主管機關一起到地方來協助地方然後引進一些工班來協助地方媒合民眾來進行修繕到目前為止大概有600多戶的民眾的屋頂有接受這個媒合來進行修繕所以內政部真的非常用心主席給我一點時間我問一下經濟部目前有沒有建材順勢漲價的問題你怎麼確保災區使用建材價格是穩定的"},{"start":17604.985,"end":17610.992,"text":"目前來講我們並沒有掌握到就是說有異常漲價的一個情況好謝謝兩個部會謝謝好謝謝葉勤委員接著我們請蘇清泉委員質詢"},{"start":17627.978,"end":17642.025,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請經濟部次長水利署署長還有環境部部長環境部部長還有我們經濟部次長還有水利署署長委員好好 次長昨天的大質詢我有跟卓院長"},{"start":17653.735,"end":17659.639,"text":"要求啦這就是延續 我一定要把它頂到頂這個鐙槓 鐙槓 長蛤在喝水一鍋我都喝兩次"},{"start":17664.505,"end":17685.998,"text":"是怎樣呢 東港既來 兩間舊的投資站一間是成功投資站 一間是功夫投資站那些都是馬英九時代跟單吹蜜時代 都一間現在這個頂樺這裡 東港大牌 跟五寶溪的九十片那些地方沒有資產 所以 你看 這樣"},{"start":17687.992,"end":17696.288,"text":"一鍋醃兩次 都鹹水喔 這都是鹹水喔所以路基啦 地基啦 一些都 設施都會損壞而且非常嚴重"},{"start":17701.473,"end":17704.274,"text":"那我是不是請那個水利署長"},{"start":17725.329,"end":17733.63,"text":"謝謝委員 委員你剛才說的會刊的部分我們配合委員時間如果要快一點 下禮拜我們就可以馬上會刊這已經有一些故事就是說他們當初沒做追問所以海水倒灌所以這東西追問做了之後相信這個問題會改善很多我們可以配合委員的時間來進促會刊 以上說明好 趕快 趕快是 謝謝委員這個非常非常非常重要"},{"start":17754.614,"end":17773.267,"text":"那個既來那兩咖做二料就賣什麼只有賣他嗎只有賣他嗎所以現在大陸說要趕快看能不能趕快趕賣因為這些民怨那個是不管誰來主政誰都受不了好 那這樣就謝謝市長好 謝謝委員來 我們環境部長五分鐘而已"},{"start":17779.604,"end":17801.934,"text":"夭壽 還沒說到就好我再跟我們的環境部長 彭部長跟你肯定這是內部老鼻農場 老鼻農場七八百公頃 要再建光墊你把它倒下來 你把它拿走我再一次跟你肯定謝謝你會不會又偷偷地放水 他們又捲土重來"},{"start":17804.16,"end":17809.328,"text":"這個很惡劣 這個會土石流委員他申請是他的權利那我們會嚴格把關"},{"start":17811.277,"end":17832.549,"text":"也跟委員報告 嚴格把關他必須還要得到農政單位的許可等等希望這個要好好的不能再這樣人家說國破山河債我們現在是國債山河破這是很要事的事情你就要顧到再來"},{"start":17835.291,"end":17839.174,"text":"這是我們榜山要做風電,要採11基,再來這邊花東要採50多基的風,2012年一基風業,一基風業,一基是業績,2012年,現在多少我不知道,可能..."},{"start":17858.61,"end":17866.157,"text":"一倍以上 一支風電機一年最多只能產生600萬度電 最好啦發動那些都從風台一次來都17、17級、18級你看那天 蘭嶼17級爆表"},{"start":17876.966,"end":17887.289,"text":"這風雨風熱的機遇我都承受 這麼大的風太嘛這低頻噪音 你要把它動掉的喔 你要把它動掉的屏東這裡 我事實反對我們現在已經做東海岸 恆春半島 南匯緩風車大聯盟我們可能後來就要 以後我們什麼都要給你維押不用啦 不用 不用報告委員 我們環評是非常嚴格審的"},{"start":17904.233,"end":17922.509,"text":"要不然草草來抓我們你會看的是怎樣基本上這個500公尺以內如果有住宅的話要環評那我們會嚴格的把關我們過去也退過非常多次例如說彰化大城還有苗栗的都有推薦明顯告訴他不能開發 不准開發我們這個風電"},{"start":17927.574,"end":17948.735,"text":"一度一塊錢的核電你不用你去用風電一度六塊多七塊多到八塊智障的人也知道這是不對的白癡也知道這是不對的這樣還趕著洗衣服做這是龐大的利益就這樣搞所以我們沒有辦法再忍受這個昨天一堆人被抓了"},{"start":17951.158,"end":17966.601,"text":"所以我們環境部這裡你真有擔當我再次給你肯定希望這個一定要堅持 好不好好 謝謝謝謝謝謝慶賢委員接著我們請李博義委員質詢好 謝謝"},{"start":17980.217,"end":17991.697,"text":"有請經濟部次長台電董事長還有國土署長經濟部次長還有鄭文森董事長吳興修署長"},{"start":17993.606,"end":18014.171,"text":"這次丹尼斯颱風跟728豪雨確實其實它來之前高雄市也是全力待命因為高雄市去年經歷了凱米 康瑞跟山陀爾其實也是損失非常慘重民眾倒是放了七天假其中有一天很特別叫修復家園假"},{"start":18015.205,"end":18042.772,"text":"那去年高雄市也跟行政院申請了超過40億的災後的這個復原的所有的經費感謝行政院去年的協助今年現在來趕快加速要來省這個丹納斯600億的這些重建經費我想除了水利設施農業補助經濟弱勢還有修復交通住宅還有最重要的電力那剛剛也有很多委員也有提到這個"},{"start":18045.052,"end":18059.238,"text":"這些經濟補助的不足等等的我也是覺得這一次從整個嘉南平原進去那我看到我們立法院幾位同事包含今天賴會員主席還有郭國文委員 林俊憲委員還有蔡議員"},{"start":18060.498,"end":18078.735,"text":"整天泡在水裡泡了兩個禮拜還有我找了國土署吳興修署長也找了兩個禮拜都在台南所以這一次都很辛苦各位在第一線來協助所有的災民我在這邊想要先就叫鄭文森董事長"},{"start":18080.28,"end":18092.595,"text":"這一次台電的修復裡面我知道有大量全國或者是其他的包商都來支援協助當然修復的期間非常的長這一個"},{"start":18095.972,"end":18119.148,"text":"颱風它還是有它比如說高雄比較嚴重或者是這一次台南嘉義嚴重我想請教你這一次調度的狀況大概是全國都調過來還是有怎麼樣調度的狀況可以說明一下好 那個跟委員報告因為颱風那時候是從西邊來那一開始就是我們大概是台中以南都警戒"},{"start":18120.762,"end":18144.924,"text":"那最後確定其實從巴掌溪附近進來以後其實嘉義台南最嚴重那高雄的狀況是它有災情北高雄有災情那高雄是等到執行完畢才到嘉南中部有下來嗎中部有北部有嗎北部也有北部是最早支援的因為北部沒有災情"},{"start":18145.925,"end":18173.164,"text":"好 謝謝那這一個調度未來會成為常態嗎其實做得最完善就是從去年三坨河開始我跟委員報告去年三坨河因為它在我想民眾需要聽這個啦因為大家知道台電很辛苦大家也知道這一個區域的人他只能做到什麼程度他24小時不要睡覺坐在路邊吃便當的畫面大家都看到但是我們怎麼調度我希望可以讓民眾也清楚好 我跟委員報告其實就是我們都會先看颱風路徑的預判"},{"start":18175.305,"end":18200.808,"text":"那今年的这一个台风其实当然是台风比较特别它原来路径是沿着台湾海峡往北走所以会在哪个地方会不会登陆会在哪个地方登陆我们比较没有那么确定所以我们是台风深夜登陆隔天我们开始出动状况就是哪里灾情比较严重我们就支援哪边那我坦白跟您说云林 嘉义 台南是最早被支援的"},{"start":18201.488,"end":18218.32,"text":"那都是北部下來支援那除了台電自己的這些人力之外還有其他的所有公班就是包含您講的包商對 跟委員報告就是其實我們那些電感導斷那些重機其實包商手上的設備比台電多"},{"start":18219.821,"end":18233.825,"text":"所以都是包商來協助幫忙支援好 這個是下一個我要請教你的問題我在去年針對男子產業園區他們要裝設161千伏特的變電站專用為什麼 就是你也知道"},{"start":18236.607,"end":18261.662,"text":"這些半導體產業它的電網必須要是非常牢固的那也跟今天很多人在請教你的問題一樣有沒有全面地下化或者是這些目前這個江南平原的要怎麼改善的這些計畫我看我們兩年分別編了50億要給台電來做改善目前的方案跟計畫會是什麼而全國會是什麼"},{"start":18263.166,"end":18287.507,"text":"我先說一下就是您關心那個楠梓科技產業園區它那個地方是這樣它以前是普通高壓那您剛才講161KV是特高壓所以我們基本上是要把它升級這個確定要做那個是另外一個議題我只是說針對這種科技產業園區的電網我們需要這樣那時候也整合了很多民生用電把它整合出去那把民生用電另外做一個整理對 就分流"},{"start":18288.387,"end":18316.645,"text":"對 那現在對於嘉南平原對於災區我們明年度後年度都50億的經費我們打算要怎麼做那個我們會先因為這次導斷主要是在主幹線就它影響範圍比較大我們會先把主幹線的電網在它的陸基比較好會先滴下來那如果災情多好 沒問題我是要請吳組長上來是要跟你說感謝辛苦啦這次台南讓你整合了剛剛部長講的三萬四千戶"},{"start":18317.806,"end":18324.828,"text":"謝謝你辛苦了謝謝感謝前進指揮所謝謝謝謝大家謝謝博議委員接著我們請吳佩玉委員質詢謝謝主席我請教育部部長教育部部長"},{"start":18361.687,"end":18374.935,"text":"委員好部長好有關於葉秉成次長在姓平案件涉及洩密的這件事情您多次表達歉意葉次長也表達愧疚你們確實應該要感到愧疚"},{"start":18382.561,"end":18403.359,"text":"這個案件它已經不只是一個個案了部長我不知道你知不知道現在引發了基層教師很多的反彈憤怒跟擔憂包括了性平學生團體大家擔心的是這一次的案件的處理會不會幫性平法的保密制度打開一個破口大開後門開倒車為什麼"},{"start":18409.298,"end":18418.068,"text":"因為在一般性平案件裡面的保密我們對基層的教師是以最高標準在要求但是這一次你們對於你們教育部的高官卻是用最寬鬆的標準在縱容"},{"start":18430.515,"end":18454.003,"text":"性評會調查結果有給我們教育部建議嘛對不對部長給我們兩個建議第一有關違反個資法的部分因為不屬於性評會調查範圍請教育部調查有關於政務人員有沒有違反公務人員服務辦法服務法的問題不屬於性評會的權責請教育部調查但是啊部長我想請問"},{"start":18460.029,"end":18476.548,"text":"這兩個事情 個資法 公務人員服務法教育部不知道自己可以調查嗎這個案件發生多久了還要由性評會的外部委員來告訴你們教育部說你必須要啟動行政調查"},{"start":18480.171,"end":18509.214,"text":"而我們教育委員會的委員包括我在內我們在今年4月就已經發文給教育部當時我們就要求教育部必須盡速啟動調查程序如今查證屬實設有違反個人資料保護或行政倫理之情節進行懲處所以4月的時候你們就可以啟動行政調查了"},{"start":18510.947,"end":18512.588,"text":"當時有啟動嗎 請問部長我們感謝委員關心這個個案確實在當時我們理解整個的這個葉市長在網路上的一些不當的揭露"},{"start":18530.912,"end":18559.612,"text":"當時有沒有啟動行動調查因為當時都是等於說劍指他違反性平法但是因為從整個法令來看他事實上他不是台大性平啟動的一些直接的一些相關人也不是教育部負責性平的一個業務者我現在不是直接跟你說性平性平有性平會調查嘛有關於個資有沒有洩密的部分有關於政務員有沒有違反公務人員服務法的部分"},{"start":18560.693,"end":18575.137,"text":"4月的時候教育部有沒有啟動行政調查有沒有只要告訴我就好了有或沒有當時有沒有我們當時是有這個性平的一個初步認定是沒有的沒有當時沒有啟動行動調查嘛對不對是為什麼難怪人家說你們包庇嘛"},{"start":18581.84,"end":18590.903,"text":"拖了四個月性評會調查完畢繞了一圈性評委員在監獄教育部請你們現在啟動行政調查丟臉啊失職啊部長我現在請問你什麼時候要啟動行政調查"},{"start":18602.148,"end":18616.719,"text":"我們事實上已經開這一個性評會的結論出來不是性評會 性評會建議你們就各自泄密的部分請到行政調查什麼時候啟動我們第二天就已經召開召開了這一個不是會議 有沒有行動行政調查什麼時候要啟動"},{"start":18621.425,"end":18647.525,"text":"不是人下台就沒事了我們要釐清事實真相到底有沒有洩密部長我告訴你這件事情為什麼這麼重要因為部長我告訴你這件事情為什麼那麼重要因為它不只是一個個案過去性平努力了這麼久的時間其中個資保護極其重要因為如果受害人的個資有可能受到洩密"},{"start":18648.922,"end":18671.574,"text":"的風險的話一個受害者他可能未來連申訴他都不敢踏出這一步在我們對於基層教師的要求裡面不只是性平的調查人員是所有的教師只要他知情倘若他有洩密是會受到懲處的但是這一次我們教育部的次長"},{"start":18673.12,"end":18695.15,"text":"因為在縣評會的調查當中已經有確認事實有洩露個資他的文字是叫做如放大是可辨識這個文字是這樣子但是我們對教育部的次長涉及洩密你們卻用法規規避的方式沒有進行懲處所以這個個案如果變成一個通案的話"},{"start":18697.023,"end":18703.261,"text":"所有的性平團體都擔心未來我們的性平制度會大開刀舌所以部長"},{"start":18704.608,"end":18729.055,"text":"你們一定要去解決這個問題部長 是不是給吳佩玉委員一個公開報告我想我們內部我們一定會依法來救責因為我們也不捨這一個學生因為在學校裡面受到一些傷害然後到現在一直沒有辦法一個有效的一個對他有一個更大的一些心理的一些支持現在全台灣的性平團體包含學生 包含教師被刪新葉秉辰條款"},{"start":18732.036,"end":18737.041,"text":"會成為性平制度這個保密開放的大漏洞所以請你們確定部長 部長 我在跟你講個資法嘛 是是不是在那個提供我們教育部會來深切檢討然後依法來寫已經檢討了四個月了 趕快有所作為"},{"start":18757.099,"end":18785.117,"text":"該調查就調查最後因為我很關切 朝偉抱歉給我三四秒的時間 不行啦 不行啦 佩玉我跟你講 你那個明天問更恰當好 沒問題就是有關於教育債損4.3億的預算我明天再來跟部長關心謝謝朝偉 好不好謝謝委員那油耗委員 油耗委員油耗委員不在洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在接著我們請陳金威委員質詢"},{"start":18791.42,"end":18794.282,"text":"謝謝主席我想請環境部部長彭部長環境部部長你好這個是非常多網友應該說全民都非常關心的議題因為您前幾天說如果這個廠商沒有辦法把嘉義的這些光電板清完環境部就要接手了那"},{"start":18820.763,"end":18838.481,"text":"我們會覺得說奇怪清光電板的速度有夠慢但是我的臉書下面有網友回文啊他就說環境部出手又要拿人民的納稅錢去處理結果呢環境部的小編馬上回他小編回的速度有夠快說"},{"start":18839.542,"end":18862.225,"text":"不要轻信转传未经查证的影片环境部会持续查核如果对于恶意造假散布不实资讯者将用司法单位严正的追查那我想问一下彭部长有认为我跟这位网友是不认识的但他觉得自己很委屈我也想知道说部长您是认为他在造谣吗"},{"start":18863.33,"end":18883.997,"text":"我也很委屈因為你說的不是事實我也很委屈因為光電板我們很認真在處理可是委員你說我還要用公眾的錢我也受到委屈我們看下一張因為大家很關心你的接手是什麼意思所以我們今天也把接手講清楚你要怎麼接手"},{"start":18885.457,"end":18900.152,"text":"當然你現在有提追加預算所以我們都有看你的追加預算也有到環境部問每一筆是用在什麼地方但是因為你已經公開在新聞上說環境部會接手那接手當然需要錢錢從哪裡來你必須要跟大家講"},{"start":18902.574,"end":18921.914,"text":"好 委員我們是依據廢清法我們會進行代位求償如果我們它一直都到9月5號前沒有清我們會走到那一步那個要代位求償不是我們政府要出錢的那我們編在這個16E裡面主要是處理食棉毒藥的一個這最主要的廢物還有廢棄物沒有包含光電板跟各位委員保證"},{"start":18924.123,"end":18944.04,"text":"你的接手的意思是說環境部會先出錢沒有出錢我們會安排因為報告委員這家公司他的資本額我們也查過他的這個手上的錢還夠用很夠用所以我們基本上不會用到政府一毛錢就是要求他一定要限令要清除完畢就對了"},{"start":18944.994,"end":18963.664,"text":"好 這個廠商因為之前我們有跟你去考察我們辦公室有跟你去考察你也很誠實的說有一家回收光電板的你覺得是不惜血本的在做很認真另外一家你說很不積極 很擺爛這個也是你考察的時候自己說的"},{"start":18964.324,"end":18978.352,"text":"他都已經不在乎被你罰300萬因為他把這個所謂光電板的浮台繳稅違反廢清法他都已經這樣了速度也很慢因為你之前這麼多委員關心的時候你說"},{"start":18979.332,"end":19007.971,"text":"一個半月一個多月可以清除完但事實證明你早上回答賴市保委員的是9月5號啊你早上回答的日期我們按照時間他要必須例如說明天還要再開罰一張300萬但是他提出一個清理計畫書我們現在正在審核嘉義縣環保局在審核他們預計9月5號可以完全清完所以一個那麼不在乎被你開罰兩次的廠商你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償是這個意思嗎"},{"start":19009.312,"end":19036.093,"text":"如果他9月5號做不到那當然我們政府一定要出手他破壞環境所以你保證你追的回來委員這個是他們一定要做這個事情那他們基本上未來還要在台灣做生意他們一定要負起這個責任的他如果要付的話早就已經付了他現在已經被你罰兩次他認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心但是告訴我們我們已經罰了整個他已經900萬了後面就是300萬一張的罰單"},{"start":19038.015,"end":19052.784,"text":"好那我们就也对你有信心希望9月5号第一9月5号可以确实的清完对吧对也拜托委员不要说让我说很像我又在污蔑我们又在说花政府的钱没有这回事也请委员能够帮我澄清"},{"start":19053.686,"end":19078.382,"text":"你說環境部要接手你就把他講清楚就好了這個是如果當天是有媒體記者訪問說萬一沒有清完怎麼辦那沒有清完當然依照廢清法我們要來代位求償除完要跟他索討本來就是這個樣子再來這也是另外您說8月底之前可以給我們的當初每一片光電板都會有序號也就是他的身分證證號"},{"start":19080.123,"end":19096.403,"text":"可是很多人就已經在莫名其妙的地方找到光碟板有的卡在樹上有的在池塘裡面有的已經留掉了現在不只是清不完你八月底就已經清不完了我想問你八月底之前你覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎"},{"start":19097.885,"end":19121.09,"text":"因為當初您說失蹤的你也會告訴我如果他年限還沒到卻因為一個風災已經廢棄的需要回收的你也會告訴我假使他是真的到年限了你也會告訴我我們需要這個數據啊可以這個現在那個能源署跟環境部有一個平台那他們正在登錄當中等到這個因為13萬片13.5萬片實在太多了實在太多了我們會給他們一點點時間希望把那個數據早一點看到"},{"start":19126.511,"end":19143.771,"text":"那裡面會包括比如說他年限還有很久但是因為這次風災受損我們可以有這個資料嗎當然也有一些是已經掉到水裡面那個碼已經掉了我也有看到這樣那我們也有要求他要秤重要量有多少必須有證明出來所以8月底會有"},{"start":19144.928,"end":19159.873,"text":"可能要到九月中九月中好我再修改好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝菁委委員接著我們請何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在那我們接著請葉延之委員質詢麻煩請環境部長謝謝環境部部長"},{"start":19183.126,"end":19183.991,"text":"委員好部長好"},{"start":19185.7,"end":19213.201,"text":"在2020年當時因為政府就是在積極發展太陽能嘛那很多人對於太陽能光電板的回收可能有疑慮啦所以環保署當時有發新聞稿一直不斷對外強調這光電板的回收機制非常的好不會造成什麼環境的污染然後有一個SOP啦特別是還有提到說會去跟業者收一筆回收清理費用這是光電業者是交給經濟部的"},{"start":19214.522,"end":19230.561,"text":"我想先問一下這個回收清理費用的用途是什麼假如這個錢那這個錢是用在哪他如果正常22或25年排出之後那個業者他可以跟跟我們去申請這個錢那個錢由這個回收基金一K瓦一千塊來取代"},{"start":19232.023,"end":19246.443,"text":"所以是押金的概念嗎這個錢交給經濟部之後經濟部會把這個錢拿來用對 經濟部幫忙代收對 代收之後咧然後錢怎麼用我們就要付給這個回收的資源的這個廠商他在處理這樣的工作"},{"start":19246.892,"end":19261.674,"text":"啊 付給回收清理對 就是說他要送電話你說最後結束 暗場結束之後是由環境部負責他們要來跟我們提出申請然後來請款那我們經由這樣的管道跟這個能源署請款這個費用"},{"start":19263.036,"end":19280.921,"text":"現在的問題是他們很多案場是沒有到二三十年直接風災關係就被吹走了那這筆錢就不能用是不是不行用他們必須要當成是自己的廢棄物那當然啦他因為已經有的已經繳了可能三年五年所以他接下來如果還要再鋪新的光電板他就不用繳了是這個意思還是要繳"},{"start":19282.741,"end":19293.446,"text":"現在應該是能源署跟我們這邊有一個協議應該是說他如果繳了三年那三百塊那個費用那可以來抵或是怎麼樣這個其實現在已經在最後的這個磋商的階段了"},{"start":19294.246,"end":19322.839,"text":"不是 我的意思是說比如說就像我們剛剛在講的那個元玉這家廠商嘛他的光電板被抽走了所以被催走他現在不處理嘛那如果最後啦環境部必須要幫他處理的話是可以用這筆錢嗎還是不行基本上不會所有的我們政府不會幫他出一毛錢那這個回收費用不是他繳的嗎他繳 他大概只有繳幾年而已那幾年的費用可能部分那個那幾年的部分或許現在如果能源署認定的話就可以退回給他"},{"start":19323.579,"end":19352.302,"text":"他又要重新開始如果說他要重新開始的話沒有到20年部分按照比例退給他所以這筆錢也可以當這個還是請能源署回答好不好因為他有繳一筆錢嘛這筆錢要先扣著嘛不然到時候你如果萬一他最後不給你錢政府如果幫他處理不給你錢那這筆錢先扣著啊委員他現在他要去處理他都必須找處理的廠商去簽約那是他們自己的事情問題現在大家講就是說他不處理假如他不處理"},{"start":19352.882,"end":19375.222,"text":"因為我先把我的問題問完等一下一起講啦好不好等一下一起講因為現在廠商就不處理你們現在就是用開罰單的方式嘛就是一張三百萬一張三百萬現在已經罰六百萬九百萬了現在是最後三十三十三個廠商只有現在最後一個對在旁邊那他呢已經被我們罰了總共九百萬九百萬嘛不是我部長我覺得很奇怪是政府都沒有更積極作為可以讓他來處理嗎"},{"start":19377.004,"end":19395.605,"text":"委員這是我們用盡非常積極的沒有問題 一直講完了因為像這一家原育公司其實你去查你可以發現他們在台灣這個同一個負責人他有非常多的能源公司有包括一大堆像什麼盛群什麼東海而且資本額都不低有的還一億多"},{"start":19396.266,"end":19412.659,"text":"那這些廠商他勢必也要跟政府去申請他後續的光電或是暗場的部分都沒有辦法跟這個負責人有比較強硬的手段去跟他講就要趕快處理嘛造成環境的問題這是我第一個問題因為今天主席控制時間比較精準第一個問題"},{"start":19413.88,"end":19442.041,"text":"那第二個問題是如果它就是擺爛因為看起來就是要擺爛嘛從一開始環境部說一兩個禮拜七月多那時候一兩個禮拜可以解決到現在已經八月快底了然後後來剛剛我聽到最新的數字又變成九月多那九月多會不會又變成十月多它就變成一個無法處理的廢棄物垃圾在那邊假設政府最後進行處理的話那你有沒有先對它要假扣押或者是採取比較強制手段否則你幫它處理了萬一它最後不付錢"},{"start":19442.842,"end":19455.062,"text":"那就變成全民買單耶報告委員我們台灣是一個法治的國家雖然你說的我很想這樣做但是我們必須按照法令一步一步的動現在已經走到最後的階段你說的我們也有在準備當中你說要準備什麼"},{"start":19456.892,"end":19485.203,"text":"你說的剛剛說假扣押或怎麼樣的動作我們都有準備什麼時候會到什麼階段開始他現在在提出他的這個清理的計畫那我們現在在審核當中如果過的話他自己承諾是9月5號對那如果真的沒有到的話那我們政府就要出手了出手之後就會同時進行假扣押是不是到時候再進我們會請教我們的律師如何再進行但是我相信這家公司他其實最近有表示出積極的態度我們還是給他一點機會OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":19488.722,"end":19509.663,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝葉燕姿委員那接著我們請黃建豪 黃建豪 黃建豪不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在那我們請劉建國委員質詢好 謝謝主席那彭部長不想回去 彭部長就再回來吧好 那個環境部部長部長"},{"start":19512.481,"end":19536.265,"text":"當然是颱風造成中南部地區的石棉瓦大量的這樣的一個損毀那我們在特別預算裡邊的7億多要做清運不寒處理對不對就清運就要花7億是不是這樣那環境部的統計全台目前監測到的這個屬於這個石棉瓦在屋頂上的應該將近有50萬噸20萬噸24萬噸"},{"start":19540.126,"end":19542.008,"text":"20多萬噸 50萬噸嘛這是環境部的相關資料"},{"start":19547.83,"end":19576.672,"text":"本縣在我的母縣是55,991公噸然後從兩年前一直到目前為止才清除980幾噸等於不到1乘7啦不到1乘7那我們面對石碧英娃的這個狀況要去處理最主要它是世界衛生組織公認的一級的致癌物沒有錯嘛 對不對那也從小英就任的第二年開始"},{"start":19577.412,"end":19591.775,"text":"等於在107年我們開始有政策要來處理這些石棉瓦那到現在已經114年已經過了7年時間能不能簡單說明一下總共50萬噸我們清理了幾噸大概15000多噸15000多噸算過來應該不到兩成多那你們預期的目標要把這50萬噸可以處理到結束"},{"start":19605.339,"end":19634.707,"text":"要分幾年 要多少預算大概要兩百億也報告委員因為有損壞的石棉瓦才對健康有害我們認為現在政府的預算壓力非常的大所以我們認為是說有需要的我們政府就會來做補助所以過去每年大概有兩三億的費用來進行損壞的石棉瓦才算是有害沒有損壞的石棉瓦就不會有害等到需要拆除的時候就一併拆除這樣"},{"start":19635.807,"end":19662.616,"text":"這個是後面的事情嘛那就說你對外8月25號環境部有對外說完整的石梅瓦基本上是無害的道理是一樣嘛是一致嘛但是石梅瓦經過風吹日曬可能會龜裂可能會出現有這個缺角這個都不會造成有害這個也算是在完全的石梅瓦深度無法嗎可以這麼認定嗎"},{"start":19664.217,"end":19673.313,"text":"對 包委員大概就是說不是 不是 不是 對不起你回答我對我的句話是是缺角歸類的算是完整的這個屋頂的石棉瓦嗎"},{"start":19674.578,"end":19692.217,"text":"對 只要有裂掉或是漏水那歸裂 那個都算是有損害有損害嘛 那個就算有損害嘛 對不對對 那照理講現在我們去Test我們去了解的掌握情況之下像這樣的狀況 佔你的50萬噸的比例是多少你有做這樣的掌握嗎"},{"start":19694.099,"end":19711.839,"text":"因為我們這次風災現在無人機正在飛一天大概可以飛170公頃左右針對台南嘉義的地區雲林我們預計未來也會再飛目前我們現在重新再算因為現在是逐步的淘汰假設沒有損害是逐步淘汰假設沒有損害對不對"},{"start":19712.559,"end":19736.385,"text":"但是你們的定義裡面就是說如果現在屋頂看起來是好好的但也沒有去看它是不是有龜裂也沒有去看它是缺角那我們還是認定它是完美的 完整的這個市民屋啊所以就不優先處理嘛就不優先在這次不優先處理部長你講這句話你應該是一個很精準做事情非常積極的一個部長這樣講話是不夠精準這樣是會有問題的啦對不對"},{"start":19738.665,"end":19762.805,"text":"難道你一定要等到有像這樣當作是颱風造成整個屋頂被吹翻了我們才去做後續的清理動作這環不濟急啊或許會為時已晚啊不應該是這麼處理嘛而且你的定義喔你的定義叫做完整的失眠屋瓦並無危害環境部持續宣導妥善處理嚴格稽查任意氣質這是你們講的 八月二十二號講的嘛對不對"},{"start":19764.006,"end":19778.101,"text":"對啊我剛剛講的你怎麼去認定那個屋頂沒有歸列那個屋頂沒有缺角只要歸列缺角就成了部長你剛剛所講的他就不是一個完整的這個死免的屋瓦嘛對不對沒錯沒錯那要不要處理對要處理要處理嘛啊怎麼處理"},{"start":19779.242,"end":19796.271,"text":"基本上每一個縣市環保局他們都有一些清運的量你可以跟他去做申請基本上清運的費用就是我們政府會來付出的我知道 部長但是如果照剛剛我依照雲林縣的案例講給你聽坦白講在100年都沒辦法處理完"},{"start":19798.272,"end":19818.242,"text":"全50萬噸在你部長可能不曉得要放幾噸之後還是一樣沒辦法處理完成那如果是這個情況之下我們中南部的百姓每天上面頂著世界衛生組織公認的一起出來那環境部立場是什麼環境部的基於做的是什麼"},{"start":19819.866,"end":19837.434,"text":"這個環境部目前只負責清運跟末端的處理那其他各部會包含教育部有學校的停車場包含經濟部管的工廠包含農業部管的畜牧業的這些廠房很多的時空卡早已歸類出橋要不要處理"},{"start":19841.071,"end":19851.676,"text":"這個大家都要來編列相關的經費來做拆除還有很多的民航難道要等到這次颱風吹了一堆火土的時候才要積極的面對處理嗎"},{"start":19853.53,"end":19867.743,"text":"所以我要求部長跟財政部因為房屋稅財政部跟地方要去做溝通內政部針對民房經濟部針對工廠農業部針對畜牧的廠房再來教育部針對學校的這些停車場去檢查到底有沒有歸類到底有沒有缺角是不是完整無壞的司法部長你才可以去講這些話不然這種話講出來你會傷到"},{"start":19880.37,"end":19889.899,"text":"一個星期一個月內一個星期內召集一個月一個月內提出解決之道可以嗎好我們來試看看好謝謝謝謝建國委員謝謝部長因為這個十年我確實是一個很辛苦"},{"start":19895.584,"end":19911.673,"text":"很難辦的一個事情我覺得可能要借助跨部會的一個協助那我們接著請陳秀寶陳秀寶陳秀寶委員不在邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員不在徐以貞徐以貞徐以貞委員不在"},{"start":19912.674,"end":19936.936,"text":"好 今天登記花園的委員均已行答完畢現在進行預算的提案處理請議事人員先讀今日審查案的審查項目跟提案那共62案 預計先讀的時間是40分鐘先讀完畢以後大概是2點40分我們要進行協商"},{"start":19937.637,"end":19963.003,"text":"那如果沒有預算的提案的那個機關單位可以先行安靜的離開宣讀中央政府丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案114年至116年預算處理表有關目預算內容請委員自行刊月一收入合計600億元"},{"start":19963.943,"end":19990.275,"text":"税入債務之舉借六百億元一四年度一百九十億七七四八萬五千元一百一十五年度三一六億五九一八萬元一一六年度九十二億六三三三萬五千元二支出合計六百億元税出六百億元一百一十四年度一百九十億七七四八萬五千元一百一十五年度三一六億五九一八萬元一百一十六年度九十二億六三三三五萬"},{"start":19991.636,"end":19993.437,"text":"這個單位請安靜的離開不然我們就全部都留下來好不好"},{"start":20012.062,"end":20016.365,"text":"請安靜的離開17748000元115年度2438946000元116年度621511000元第二項原住民族文化發展中心3500萬元114年度3150萬元115年度350萬元116年度無列數第三項國家通訊傳播委員會"},{"start":20036.499,"end":20049.653,"text":"兩億九千五百萬元一百四年度兩億零五百萬元一百一十五年度九千萬元一百一十六年五列數這是向公共工程委員會議員一百一十四年度一七二八萬一百"},{"start":20051.055,"end":20076.889,"text":"一百一十五年四千一百三十六萬元一百一十六年度四千一百三十六萬元第二款內政部主管三七億九四五二萬三千元一百一十四年度二七八九一九萬元一百一十五年度十一零五百三十三萬三千元一百一十六年度五列數第一項國土管理署及所屬三七億九千四百五十二萬三千元一百一十四年度二七八九一萬"},{"start":20077.85,"end":20095.203,"text":"八九一九萬元一百一十五年度十一零五三三萬三千元一百一十六年度無劣數第三款教育部主管四一零三百二十五萬八千元一百四年度四一零三百二十五萬八千元一百一十五年度一百一十六年度均無劣數第一項國民及學前教育署"},{"start":20095.743,"end":20112.277,"text":"四億零三百二十五萬八千元一百一十四年度四億零三百二十五萬八千元一百一十五年度無劣數一百一十六年度無劣數第四款經濟部主管一百八七億四千零九十八萬三千元一百一四年度十八億七三二零萬元"},{"start":20113.513,"end":20137.916,"text":"一百一十五年度九一七二三九萬元三九萬三千元一百一十六年度七十六億九五三九萬元第一項經濟部一零四億七千萬元一百一十四年度兩千六百萬元一百一十五年度五十四億四千四百萬元一百一十六年度五十億元第二項產業發展署一億元一百一十四年度一億元一百一十五年度及一百一十的"},{"start":20140.557,"end":20147.001,"text":"三十二一六八三九万三千元一百一十六年度二十一九五三九万元第四项"},{"start":20155.345,"end":20169.016,"text":"商業發展署5億9千萬元114年度5億9千萬元115年度116年度薪無劣數第五項中小級新創企業署8千萬元114年度2千萬元115年度6千萬元116年度無劣數第六項能源署8億元114年度無劣數115年4億元116年4億元"},{"start":20179.244,"end":20207.4,"text":"第五款交通部主管六十八億九千五百八十七萬四千元一百一十四年度十九億五千九百九十一萬九千元一百一十五年度四十九億三千五百九十五萬五千元一百一十六年度無劣數第一項公務局所屬一億九千三百五十四萬兩千元一百一四年度五千八百零六萬三千元一百一十五年度一億三千五百四十七萬九千元一百一十六年度無劣數第二項公務局所屬"},{"start":20208.18,"end":20211.042,"text":"6702332000元 114年度19101856000元 115年度4810476000元 116年無劣數第六款 農業部主管 20314257000元 114年度"},{"start":20225.373,"end":20248.39,"text":"七十一億一千零八萬一百一十五年度一百二十二億九千九百一十萬元三千元一百一十六年度九億零五零七萬四千元第一項農業部一百二十二億三四二六萬兩千元一百一十四年度六十八億五千四百九十九萬一千元一百一十五年度五十三億七千九百二十七萬一千元一百一十六年度列數"},{"start":20249.511,"end":20268.024,"text":"第二項林業及自然保育署及所屬一億七千萬元一百一四年度七千七百萬元一百一十五年度六千六百萬元一百一十六年度兩千七百萬元第三項農村發展及水土保持署及所屬七十二億兩千九百九十八萬六千元一百一十四年度"},{"start":20269.369,"end":20270.972,"text":"1億元115年度62億5191萬2000元116年度8億7807萬4000元第四項約束及所屬4億4051萬5000元114年度1000萬元115年度"},{"start":20284.933,"end":20301.548,"text":"四億三零五一萬五千元一百一十六年度無劣數第五項農業金融數兩千七百六十萬元一百一四年度六百九十萬元一百一十五年度兩千零七十萬元一百一十六年度無劣數第六項農田水利數兩億一千一百八十九萬四千元"},{"start":20302.869,"end":20325.084,"text":"一一四年度六千一百一十八万九千元一一一五年度一一五零七零万五千元一一六年度无劣数第七款环境部主管十六亿零八百四十八万元一一四年度两亿零二百五十四万四千元一百一十五年度十四亿零五百九十三万六千元一一六年度无劣数第一项环境部三亿元"},{"start":20326.445,"end":20330.087,"text":"114年度2000萬元115年度2億8千萬元116年度無劣數第二項環境資源數資源循環數7億元114年度無劣數115年度7億元116年度無劣數第三項環境管理數6億0848萬元"},{"start":20344.677,"end":20362.047,"text":"一百一十年度一億八千兩百五十萬四千元一百一十五年度四億兩千五百九千萬六千元一百一十六年度無劣數第八款文化部兩億九千四百四十二萬元一百一十四年度兩千七百七十六萬六千元一百一十五年度兩億六千六百六十五萬"},{"start":20363.387,"end":20370.79,"text":"66654000元116年度無劣數第一項文化資產局219442萬元114年度2766000元115年度2166654000元116年度無劣數第九款預備金30億元114年度30億元115年度116年度均無劣數以上請參閱預算書第9至37頁有關正式別稅處以上隨同以上機關別使拿結果"},{"start":20393.24,"end":20410.115,"text":"宣讀預算提案第一案建請行政院從寬認定災損撥補經費改善排水設施修護災區水道參酌台南市政府提出自排水系統改善計劃補助經費需求委員林一己等人提案第二案"},{"start":20411.956,"end":20432.103,"text":"經濟部應與農業部共組專案盤點輔導既有漁電共生及沿海岸場建設儲能裝置提供相關書面報告及執行計畫委員郭國文等人提案第三案有鑒於次次丹納斯風災災情嚴重政府相關補助津貼之發放應從速從寬從優辦理"},{"start":20435.304,"end":20456.414,"text":"協助災民渡過難關以達到便民及提升相關災後重建工作之效率委員郭國文等人提案第四案請行政院統籌內政部及其他公共管線之事業目的主管機關評估修正共同管道法提升我國面對風災之通訊韌性委員郭國文等人提案第五案"},{"start":20457.014,"end":20478.254,"text":"要求財政部會同相關金融機構針對本次風災提出專案性貸款方案設立單一窗口特別是援助民族能順利取得貸款以利災後重建提出相關說明委員吳立華等人提案第六案要求內政部農業部環境部針對提高民眾汰換實棉瓦屋頂"},{"start":20480.356,"end":20494.274,"text":"與本預算三讀後提出對於石棉瓦屋頂拆除及重建補助方案加速協助民眾清除石棉瓦為劉建國等人提案第七案建請行政院要求環境部加強以專案媒合"},{"start":20495.094,"end":20512.28,"text":"動員民間業者協助地方政府以具規模經濟的成本費用加速清運文賴會員等人提案第八案行政院編列修繕經費1億元為餐飲業等服務業商家災情亦嚴重損失建勤比照辦理提供服務業者設備災損補助經費納入如冷藏櫃等"},{"start":20517.342,"end":20546.154,"text":"作為補助標的為賴會員等人提案第九案建請行政院比照疫情期間提案專案提供貸款期間5年年利率1.915%之農家綜合貸款為賴會員等人提案第十案要求行政院遵守承諾除地方政府編列0730行政院加碼外另行依本條例加發每戶新台幣2萬元低收入戶及中低收入戶3萬元淹水救助"},{"start":20546.934,"end":20562.186,"text":"委員張綺凱等人提案第十一案原住民組委員會向下社會輔助獎補助費一百八十六萬元凍結本科目一萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資委員范雲等人提案"},{"start":20563.479,"end":20590.664,"text":"第十二案建請國家通訊傳播委員會從寬撥補相關經費加速災區通訊修復進度提升通訊系統韌性委員林己等人提案十三案請國家通訊傳播委員會要求補助並輔導電信業者於災區從重要路段投入管線地下化工程提升風災至通訊韌性委員郭國文等人提案十四案國家通訊傳播委員會請提出受災地區電訊系統及電力系統"},{"start":20593.813,"end":20618.698,"text":"線路設計改善方案之書面報告委員賴會員等人提案第十五案請國家通訊傳播委員會依據本預算特別條例第九條第一項及第二項接經費補助電信業者制定考核業者是否達成各種指標並納入前接法條之復原重建計劃及按計送立法院備查委員張祺凱等人提案第十六案請公共工程委員會按照"},{"start":20619.498,"end":20644.994,"text":"本預算特別條例第九條這是立法精神聯繫會整個機關推動或協調之各類三民費用減免措施統一集中揭露於網站專區委員張啟凱等人提案十七案請公共工程委員會遵循法律與本條例施行一個月內將各種給予辦法揭露格式改變為本條例鎖定之格式委員張啟凱等人提案第十八案請公共工程委員會統籌協調"},{"start":20647.875,"end":20673.291,"text":"會同數位發展部持續推動非同步軌道衛星強化災時應變通訊韌性依據本預算特別條例第九條第二項之規定適時納入送立法院備查委員張啟凱等人提案第十九案請內政部會同公共工程委員會地方政府及相關研究機構延伸並推動屋頂重建強化專案並提出完整完整評估方案"},{"start":20674.592,"end":20682.64,"text":"確保災民儘速重建家園文章雅琳等人提案二十案請內政部協同環境部研擬公共工程實免瓦"},{"start":20685.191,"end":20712.787,"text":"建物拆除方案以防止石棉破損建材對災區自惡之傷害委員郭國文等人提案21案請內政部會同地方政府及相關研究機構針對高雄市屏東縣原住民族鄉鎮區內少數部落地區提出安全看護地區復原專案相關說明報告提案委員吳麗華等人"},{"start":20714.218,"end":20725.027,"text":"二十二案為使災民補助標準清晰且儘量從寬從幽請內政部依據本特別預算特別本預算特別條例第四條第二項制定及與辦法"},{"start":20726.653,"end":20741.3,"text":"使一般戶9月底前經媒核拆除之受災戶應能全額支應委員張綺凱等人提案23案建請國內政部國土署針對拆除修繕補助相關期限之設定落實評估實際需求斟酌延長"},{"start":20744.822,"end":20772.915,"text":"相關期限落實災區復原之目的委員張宏祿等人提案為二十四案為維護教師薪酬知己之公平性與一致性建請教育部緊速修正相關辦法或合法解釋令以保障短期兼任與待客教師於重大天災發生時之薪資生計請於提出書面報告後回覆辦理情形委員范雲等人提案"},{"start":20773.655,"end":20788.577,"text":"第25案教育部主管國民及學前教育署向下教育支出家園及公共設施預算數4億元凍結本預算10萬元提出書面報告審查使得動之委員范雲等人提案26案"},{"start":20789.659,"end":20804.121,"text":"建請國民及學前教育署持續督導此次災區校園受損之復原情況並針對未來校園建築及設施防災標準及規範之調整計畫會同相關單位提出書面報告委員張宏祿等人提案"},{"start":20805.595,"end":20825.6,"text":"二十七案經濟部應提出加速嘉義市電纜地向化工程以強化嘉義市輸電及電網防災韌性提出辦理情形書面報告委員王美惠等人提案二十八案請經濟部提出受災商業電家復原計劃擴大對於小型受災電家援助及設備汰換補助的額度"},{"start":20828.001,"end":20846.564,"text":"提出辦理情形之書面報告委員王美惠等人提案二十九案請經濟部應提出受災地區小型工廠建物復原重建計劃調配部分經費協助受災地區小型工廠進行屋頂等建物修曬提出辦理情形之書面報告委員王美惠等人提案"},{"start":20847.165,"end":20863.776,"text":"三十案請經濟部會同國家通信傳播委員會台電公司及電信業者提出電信通訊與電力設備韌性強化方案明確規劃設備升級全面提升國家基礎設備韌性委員張雅琳等提案"},{"start":20865.841,"end":20892.944,"text":"31案氣候變遷使強烈極端天氣事件頻傳汰換老舊設備與強化電纜路線以加強電纜硬體設備實為防災之必要作為請經濟部重寬重塑核定相關經費強化災區電網韌性委員領域的人提案32案請經濟部就落實改善台電公司治理及財務務維持穩健之規劃提出書面報告委員李燕秀等人提案"},{"start":20893.905,"end":20910.042,"text":"33案電感地下化能使日常供電更加穩定降低路線損壞電感導斷的風險請經濟部提出如何加速推動全國電感地下化之書面報告委員李燕秀等人提案34案"},{"start":20913.004,"end":20926.903,"text":"本特別預算案經濟部辦理水利設施搶修及復建工程62億元及中央既有製水預算優先強化台南及其他西部沿海地區防災任性委員郭國文等人提案35案"},{"start":20928.044,"end":20955.303,"text":"请经济部会同国家通讯传播委员会台电公司及有关电信业者针对原乡地区之电力及通讯相关设备进行通盘检视保障原乡地区居民之生命财产安全委员吴丽华等人提案36案全国电缆地下化工程完成前经济部能源局及台电公司应就云嘉南地区易受风灾损害至山海地区电缆电缆优先进行加强"},{"start":20956.184,"end":20979.976,"text":"加固作業委員劉建國等人提案37案建請經濟部水利署3個月內提出書面報告具體說明未來如何透過基礎建設強化水利設施之韌性確保民眾安全委員張雅玲等人提案38案請經濟部水利署3個月內提出書面報告具體說明未來如何透過強化相關建設加強原鄉地區之排水規劃"},{"start":20981.539,"end":21000.387,"text":"等相關水利設施確保民眾安全委員吳麗華等人提案三九案建井能源署針對塞後重建時將發電設備及儲能設備等電力安全任性規劃方案納入災區重建計畫會診相關部會意見後提出書面報告委員張宏祿等人提案"},{"start":21002.28,"end":21023.381,"text":"40案起經濟部能源署會同農業部緊述擬定推廣養殖場域設置儲能之方案另訂定並示範農牧業場域示範性儲能計畫並提出書面報告委員鍾嘉斌等人提案41案維護高雄市三區原住民族"},{"start":21024.378,"end":21037.553,"text":"部落連外交通安全 建請交通部公路局優先編列 南衍96K至100K台深道路10公尺之強化提防案經費 委員黃婕等人提案"},{"start":21042.218,"end":21068.517,"text":"42案 請觀光署將本特別預算結合公務預算中所編列之微校南灣等計劃預算加速災區的觀光設施擴充振興效益委員郭國文等人提案43案 請農業部研議精進方案完善溫室設計及材料規範並建立客觀驗證制度提升設施耐災能力委員蘇曉慧等人提案"},{"start":21070.439,"end":21093.316,"text":"44案 建起農業部優先編列預算補助高雄市政府辦理谷山區桃園里上下邊坡穩定工程 圍庸房階等人提案45案 請農業部針對溫往事以租換代方案於一個月內提出書面報告今年底前提出示範計畫以強化農業抗災任性 圍庸過過文等人提案46案 請農業部研擬將以租代換農業"},{"start":21097.557,"end":21114.074,"text":"以租換代農業設施納入災後重建特別條例並研擬媒合國營事業建置大面積示範場域以立該項政策推動並提出書面報告委員中嘉賓等人提案"},{"start":21115.195,"end":21128.329,"text":"47案 農業部應研議針對溫室制定明確標準主管機關要求業者依標準施工確保溫室安全兼顧請人外部提出順便報告委員 鍾嘉斌等人提案"},{"start":21130.19,"end":21155.885,"text":"48案 環境部應提出整體性實棉瓦清潤計畫調配經費協助受災地區小型工廠進行實棉瓦清潤並提出辦理行行之書面報告委員王美惠等人提案49案 請環境部警署針對實棉廢棄建材進行相關處置方式提出具體規劃研擬相關措施提出書面報告委員張雅玲等人提案50案"},{"start":21158.393,"end":21185.674,"text":"要求环境部针对一 研议修正政府与光电厂商业者之合约范本及准则二 检讨修正光电板灾损处理之合理回收费用及汇率三 针对光电厂商业者进行总体检进行研议必将具体改善规划提出素面报告委员王振迅等人提案"},{"start":21186.314,"end":21211.617,"text":"五十一案請環境部加強提醒各地方政府和民眾提供資源協助清除積水容器落實環境消毒重視食用水源之環境衛生以避免登革熱等相當疫情災後擴散委員王振旭等人提案五十二案請環境部會同衛福部針對丹納斯風災受災戶及食棉瓦"},{"start":21212.378,"end":21221.347,"text":"拆清除職作業人員留存資料入案進行後續健康追蹤早期追蹤治療委員郭文等人提案"},{"start":21223.24,"end":21241.862,"text":"五十三案 請環境部依據本預算特別條例第九條第一項提出復原重建計畫納入資源中小企業廠房實棉建材廢棄物處理新運之措施委員張綺凱並受監督委員張綺凱等人提案"},{"start":21243.103,"end":21268.656,"text":"五十四案環境管理署環境衛生復原向下業務費三百萬元凍結一萬元提交書面報告後使得動之委員王振旭等人提案五十五案環境部主管環境管理署向下環境衛生復原預算五億元凍結本預算十萬元提出書面報告後使得動之委員范雲等人提案五十六案"},{"start":21272.588,"end":21292.674,"text":"請環境部就本預算特別條例第九條第二項按計送立法院被查報告時需納入稽查裁罰業者處理光電板廢棄物盤點進度尋本條例機制接受立法院監督委員張啟凱等人提案五十七案建請文化部會同地方政府提出盤點與修繕清單"},{"start":21294.574,"end":21305.028,"text":"建立追蹤平台定期公佈修復進度及經費使用情形委員張雅玲等人提案58案請文化部落實"},{"start":21308.413,"end":21324.818,"text":"國定古蹟分區專業團隊之運作並持續檢討與精進相關作業確保災後復建得以及時展開並兼顧品質維護文化資產之保存委員郭鈺晴等人提案59案"},{"start":21329.309,"end":21349.835,"text":"請文化部會同地方政府全面盤點狹內文化資產的災害風險定地防災及日常維護計畫建立通報機制確保文化資產保存之安全及持續性委員 郭育群等人提案60案 請文化部全面研擬中長期文化資產保存與修繕計畫"},{"start":21351.355,"end":21366.823,"text":"建立跨部会合作平台整合内政交通环境等相关资源确保文化资产得以妥善保存并持续发挥其社会教育功能文国运行等人提案六十一案台南市为历史文化古都"},{"start":21368.109,"end":21393.989,"text":"建請文化部文化資產局合力台南市政府提報之修復補助經費助助有文化股都美名之台南市文化資產緊述恢復往日封貿委員領域等人提案62案丹納斯特別預算案預備金30億元3減10億元委員賴世寶等人提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":22356.377,"end":22359.619,"text":"好我們是不是請官員入座 主席總長"},{"start":22396.504,"end":22398.386,"text":"主委官 指揮官你坐前面"},{"start":22402.758,"end":22407.48,"text":"他是按照按數不是按照那個啦不是按照排序啦"},{"start":22423.356,"end":22432.039,"text":"好 我們現在開始協商首先請官員入座前面 前面那個農業部長請坐那個環境部長五星修署長好 來 潘部長部長立馬留住"},{"start":22453.049,"end":22478.132,"text":"好來我們先從那個第一案開始那那個行政院行政院來說明一下這對於第一案有沒有意見那這場的委員有沒有意見沒有好那沒有意見的話我們就照案通過我們進入到第二案經濟部跟農業部那個經濟部跟農業部"},{"start":22479.793,"end":22496.669,"text":"好來經濟部請坐下請坐下經濟部好那個委員是說兩週內要提農業部長請坐因為你的案子也蠻多 提供書面報告然後另外兩個月要提執行計畫那我們的建議是說我們就兩個月直接提執行規劃就好了"},{"start":22497.591,"end":22521.19,"text":"那我們有跟那個郭委員的辦公室講過那主任是說基本上OK就是直接就是兩個月就執行規劃就好好那我們就修正通過好同意修正通過好來我們進入到第三案第三案文字修正還有跟提案委員溝通或同意"},{"start":22521.752,"end":22545.018,"text":"好那我們就修正通過進入到第四案第四案是行政院行政院那個好也是文字修正那委員也簽名了那我們就修正通過那進入到第五案財政部是"},{"start":22548.395,"end":22548.715,"text":"請你拿麥克風"},{"start":22556.964,"end":22575.668,"text":"第五案的提案委員吳立華委員有同意修正成有修正成請行政院辦理一些專案性貸款的方案謝謝那我們就修正通過那我們進入到第六案第六案請主決議由建國委員"},{"start":22580.25,"end":22589.945,"text":"劉建國是提案人 建國委員是不是要補充一下對 我要補充一下 文字在倒數最後一段"},{"start":22590.919,"end":22610.824,"text":"最後一段有改成這個叫要求環境部一周內邀集這個來待會補充要加幣好邀集內政部農業部經濟部教育部還有財政部及衛福部然後針對提高民眾這個拆除重建清理"},{"start":22615.107,"end":22642.942,"text":"這兩個字改為六個字啦 就是拆除然後 頓點 重建 頓點 清理一個月內提出具體方案加速清除後面再多三個字 急處理加速清除 後面再加三個字清除後面再加三個字 急處理急處理拆除 重建 急處理不是不是不是"},{"start":22646.134,"end":22671.341,"text":"加速清除及處理國內生意的50多萬噸的石棉瓦那個環境部部長有遵照辦理好遵照辦理謝謝部長我們就修正通過我們進入到第7案行政院行政院要來說明一下也是石棉瓦的議題報告委員這個遵照辦理好遵照辦理"},{"start":22673.878,"end":22701.017,"text":"那我們召喚通過第八案第八案商業署做報告委員同意修正第八案委員同意修正文字那在第二段的倒數兩個字加一個引號內容就受災店家援助方案頓點然後在這一段的最後加或修善援助"},{"start":22704.69,"end":22733.686,"text":"好那我們就修正那個修正通過來進入到第9案第9案提案人也是我就是說農業部那我同意農業部的這個在後面那個文字上的一個修正規劃受災的農移民家計周轉的金融協助措施那也謝謝那個農業部長那個充分的一個"},{"start":22734.626,"end":22753.673,"text":"溝通那第9案修正通過那我們進入到第10案那個張七凱委員在現場請張七凱委員那個做補充第10案是經過朝野協商做成的附帶結議當時我是提案人代表民眾黨然後柯建銘柯總召跟國民黨的"},{"start":22754.813,"end":22784.202,"text":"傅坤吉 傅總召都有簽名這上面除了是三黨黨編簽署同意之後還特別裡面有寫說行政部門行政院承諾會實現那這個重點在那時候加了幾個文字就載明是水災災害救助總列跟標準的第七條也就是地方那時候地方最高補助到兩萬有些是五千那各個縣市政府已經給了那今天最重要是我們做成的附帶決議是三黨包括"},{"start":22785.677,"end":22812.746,"text":"柯建民 柯總召都簽了名了然後行政部門已經做了決定所以這個條文不能再動了那重要的就是今天我們看到提出來的特別預算上面也寫得非常清楚我們編了三億就是這三億要用每一戶是兩萬塊錢然後是中低收入戶跟低收入戶是三萬塊錢我們要用本條例來執行這個所以這個條文不能再動了就是要照原來的這個負債結益地址通過我們是不是請行政院那個說明一下"},{"start":22814.717,"end":22836.932,"text":"報告委員 那這個案件因為從實務來講的話那我們尊重從特別條例來撥這個錢但是呢 我們這一個在0730這些文字我們希望把它刪掉因為這樣才不會重複再發放因為等於是縣市政府以外我們就用特別條例給他兩萬到三萬而不是重複給兩次那這個如果重複給兩次就跟這些"},{"start":22841.435,"end":22855.146,"text":"這個文字上我們打算把當初承諾跟0730行政院加碼外令行這幾個字拿掉然後等於是尊重這一個特別條例的精神去撥付"},{"start":22859.081,"end":22884.313,"text":"齊凱 這個看起來 來 指揮官指揮官補充一下我來說明我們現在談的是特別條例的特別預算所以我們只專注在這個特別預算就好所以一本特別條例行政會加碼2萬跟3萬這個沒有問題至於0730行政院加碼外這並不屬本條例所以這個是在處理這個本條例的時候去談其他就比較"},{"start":22886.154,"end":22912.806,"text":"不合啦那當初在協商的時候我也跟張委員有充分說明基本上我們會尊重這個本條例會編加碼2萬跟3萬這沒有問題但是文字呢希望給經濟部比較好執行請不要在0730行政院加碼外另行這個刪除其他就依本條例因依本條例來加碼2萬低收入3萬這樣就可以了"},{"start":22913.166,"end":22927.355,"text":"就很確認我們是依照本條例這是多下去的3億然後就是那個一般的就是2萬然後中低收入跟低收入3萬是依照本條例這3億 對不對那本來你們有跟我講說你們如果已經加碼就會重複"},{"start":22929.216,"end":22953.598,"text":"你不能夠因為你們行政院有加碼然後去排不會排取你的一定一本條例本預算來編所以你這個文字0730行政院加碼外請刪除另行的請刪除就請一本條例來 這樣就好了就是如果你們自己有加碼你們要再把本條例這個再加上去不是不是你不能夠用你行政院這東西來不是 行政院加碼本來就預定做這件事情你這樣講反而不好"},{"start":22955.659,"end":22976.173,"text":"就是我們會遵照你的建議本條例會加碼兩萬跟三萬這樣就好了所謂行政院當初不是用你的加碼來取代這個喔不會啦 不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會不會所以齊凱就是零七三零行政院加碼外練行這些文字"},{"start":22979.275,"end":22995.672,"text":"把他那个当初承诺这个也是划掉那这样子的话那个乞丐那我们就是修正没有啦为什么你这个承诺有什么问题前面那个可以划掉啦遵守当初承诺是没有问题啊这四个字"},{"start":23008.132,"end":23017.235,"text":"當初承諾保留零七三零行政院加碼外另行這一個刪除好不好 其他人那修正通過"},{"start":23019.076,"end":23034.607,"text":"我們進入到第11案改組決議修正通過第12案第12案NCC要來說明一下嗎"},{"start":23037.455,"end":23052.242,"text":"還是遵照辦理遵照辦理好謝謝那我們就照案通過第13案也是NCC是不是照案辦理也是遵照辦理好遵照辦理第14案這個行政院那個我是"},{"start":23053.687,"end":23076.89,"text":"對 也是NCC的遵照辦理好 那我們就照案通過15案15案也是七開委員是提案人那七開委員要不要補充一下15沒有什麼問題除非你們有沒有特別要修什麼條文沒有 遵照辦理遵照辦理好 那我們就第15案照案通過來 進入到第16案也是16案遵照辦理"},{"start":23077.25,"end":23093.527,"text":"好 那請張清凱委員那個照案通過那我們進入到第17案17案遵照辦理好 那就照案通過第18案18案要文字修正第9條改第8條吧"},{"start":23094.588,"end":23112.521,"text":"好第9條改成第8條張氣概委員有沒有意見對那個是好依照你們的修正沒問題好那就修正通過來第19條文字修正那就照文字修正通過"},{"start":23114.892,"end":23135.993,"text":"第20案 內政部有文字的一個修正 修正通過再來 第21是吳立華委員 行政院也有溝通文字修正 照案通過"},{"start":23137.134,"end":23164.893,"text":"修正通過第二十二也是修正文字這個也是有溝通了七開委員你要不要補充一下有沒有照修正通過好那就照修正通過那我們進入第二十三案國土署照案通過遵照辦理好那我們那個照案通過第二十四案交易部"},{"start":23168.352,"end":23196.913,"text":"那个提案委员欢迎欢迎委员我简单说明一下这个部分我刚刚有那个质询的时候问过部长那他已经同意主要就是风灾的时候那就是兼任待课老师因为聘任的规定只能领终点费一旦停课那他们就完全没有收入那教育部已经发函就是允许添灾的时候可以让老师有终点费那但是没有处理到公平性的问题哦"},{"start":23197.293,"end":23210.002,"text":"那這個部分剛剛部長有直接答應所以這個部分我原本就是主決議所以現在OK了那感謝部長好 部長要不要再補充一下好 那我們就照案通過"},{"start":23212.423,"end":23239.048,"text":"是配合辦理教育部配合辦理好那就照案通過我們進入到第25案那就是我們已經改成主決議那我們就修正通過第26案那個也是教育部提案人是那個張宏祿請教育部我們跟主委報告配合辦理好那我們就照案通過第27案"},{"start":23242.443,"end":23257.806,"text":"好文字修正了我們修正通過那我們再過來28案遵照辦理好遵照辦理那就遵照辦理通過來第29案是組結議好那就是遵照辦理通過30案經濟部有溝通過了"},{"start":23269.549,"end":23286.379,"text":"文字修正是倒數第四行 三個月改成兩個月然後分別提出電信及上銀號跟下銀號拿掉書面報告是分別提出上銀號拿掉"},{"start":23288.38,"end":23304.172,"text":"我想委員同意了總經理我們就修正通過我們進入到31頁經濟部遵照辦理我們就照案通過進入到32頁文字修正"},{"start":23308.575,"end":23323.381,"text":"好文字修正原請倒數第二行原請經濟部兩個月是不是是加兩個月好那我們就文字修正通過那我們進入到第"},{"start":23325.492,"end":23340.187,"text":"33案经济部也是两个月是不是也是文字修正好 那就修正通过那我们进入到第34案经济部那个提案人郭国文委员要不要补充一下"},{"start":23341.462,"end":23369.073,"text":"好 遵照辦理 照案通過那我們進入到第35案也是經濟部文字修正好 文字修正倒數第三行那我們就修正通過那進入到36案那個提案人是劉建國那是主決議那就是有沒有遵照辦理好 遵照辦理主席主席等一下我要補充一下對不起建國委員"},{"start":23369.753,"end":23396.89,"text":"修正一個文字然後後面再一個加強第一段的第二個條文的文字的島數雲林山海線多一個山那最後也最後就是在最後一段最後一段就是希望這個我們這次院長已經同意全國這個電纜地下化的情況之下在做相關的評估應該不是就針對省道"},{"start":23398.682,"end":23419.488,"text":"要把山區一併納入做相關的評估跟應應加強韌性那是不是文字修正顯示雲林沿海及山海區的電網的脆弱跟老舊這個加一個海然後就是在最後一段"},{"start":23421.108,"end":23443.493,"text":"最後一段是不是請那個助理 那個修給我們 好不好好 可以 好 我們再修一下好不好對 就是把山區也一併要納入文字還是寫一下啦對啦 對 我知道 當然啦那這36案 我們延後處理 好不好好 那補文字來進入到第37案 水利署好 遵照報理 遭案通過第38案 經濟部"},{"start":23446.874,"end":23475.927,"text":"好 那我们就照案通过第39案经济部能严署好 照案通过那进入到第40案文字修正同意好 同意那修正通过进入到第41案交通部好 那我们就照案通过42案那个提案人等一下等一下来 请大家拿麦克风一下等一下"},{"start":23479.489,"end":23497.537,"text":"來42號提案委員郭國文我提醒一下觀光署這一次的這個災情非常的嚴重所以本行有特別提出這個案子然後這微笑南灣基本上也是那個你們既有的一個施政計畫內容但是我所寫的部分雖然是只有海邊但是山邊也是有那個"},{"start":23499.199,"end":23507.318,"text":"天災 地震發生過所以這兩邊都要兼顧請觀光署 雖然提案的內容是如此但是兩邊要兼顧"},{"start":23508.993,"end":23533.053,"text":"遵照辦理來 公安署遵照辦理好 遵照辦理那我們就照案通過再來進入到第43案 農業部遵照辦理好 遵照辦理那我們照案通過進入到第44案 農業部遵照辦理好 第44案 照案通過45案遵照辦理"},{"start":23533.793,"end":23557.141,"text":"這個我是跟嘉賓請處理的嘉賓要補一下補簽一下好 那第45案那個我們照案通過那原案那個提案人是郭國文跟鍾嘉賓第46案 農業部遵照辦理好 遵照辦理那我們照案通過第47案遵照辦理好 照案通過 47案"},{"start":23560.047,"end":23584.006,"text":"接著我們進入到第48案遵照辦理環境部我們就照案通過第48案進入到第49案環境部遵照辦理49案照案通過我們進入到第50案環境部跟經濟部文字修正委員已經簽名"},{"start":23584.847,"end":23605.406,"text":"好 同意修正這兩位王振旭委員有簽名好那我們修正通過第50案進入到第51案遵照辦理好 遵照辦理我們照案通過第51案好那52案環境部郭國文委員是提案人好"},{"start":23605.686,"end":23630.546,"text":"文字修正委员签名文字修正我们就修正通过第53案遵照办理遵照办理我们第53案就照案通过进入到第54案委员我们建议改组决议组决议第54案王振旭委员也同意改成组决议"},{"start":23631.718,"end":23655.049,"text":"好 那我們進入到第55案也改組決議好 改成組決議修正通過55案來 進入到第56案文字修正委員簽名好 那就是我們修正通過56案那57案是文化部"},{"start":23656.53,"end":23684.365,"text":"文化部好 57案遵照辦理好 那我們就57案照案通過來 58案是文化部遵照辦理好 58案照案通過59案文化部也是遵照辦理好 那59案照案通過第60案文化部我們建議修正文字建議修正文字 那個"},{"start":23685.851,"end":23701.056,"text":"那個委員委員有簽名嗎有簽名那就修正通過第60案那我們進入到第61案遵照部好那我們就照案通過再來進入到62案來主計總處62案"},{"start":23716.959,"end":23738.347,"text":"這個部分我們是原來就是說要刪減後來有取得那個賴委員的一個同意就改為主決議這樣子就是後面的文字的一個修改就改成是說要按照那個預算法規定每一筆超過五千萬要送立法院來備查這樣子"},{"start":23739.966,"end":23756.436,"text":"好 那個62條那個賴世寶委員改成主決議那我們就照案沒有 修正通過修正那個修正通過來 我們再回到第36案劉建國委員好的嗎"},{"start":23758.257,"end":23783.575,"text":"那個劉建國委員第36案我們把這個顯示引領那個引領沿海的山海區電網的脆弱跟老舊那後面後面的文字出來了嗎36案馬上就出來了好好好我們等你我們等你來我們在我們有了呢速度很快很快"},{"start":23794.891,"end":23808.58,"text":"好 我們要請部會派代表留下來聽決議好"},{"start":23829.814,"end":23830.755,"text":"主席好熱"},{"start":23843.891,"end":23864.515,"text":"那不然就我剛剛講的應該是第一段的第二第二條文後面那個造成雲林山海線那最後一段最後一段就是再加幾個文字就好並針對山區並針對山區電纜地下化或其他加強的工法提出計劃沒有他加進來的文字"},{"start":23879.993,"end":23894.977,"text":"來 我唸一下並且針對三區地下化或其他加強那個加強工房好"},{"start":23899.412,"end":23927.143,"text":"加強其他的公法提出計畫這樣有問題嗎那個台電有沒有問題王總有問題嗎其他的公法他要加一個其他的公法有一個其他有一個其他來我給笑他完整了好不好"},{"start":23930.032,"end":23932.917,"text":"加強其他那個方法的話重寫一下"},{"start":23943.674,"end":23951.376,"text":"並針對山區地下化或其他加強風華一樣啦 風華主計畫這樣可以這樣可以 好我們回主席台上"},{"start":23960.865,"end":23974.491,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝在現場的各位那個委員那我們回到那個主席台上面那協商已經完成請那個議事人員那個先讀協商的結論先讀特別議事"},{"start":24000.554,"end":24012.559,"text":"宣讀特別預算協商結論第一案照案通過第二案修正通過第三案修正通過第四案修正通過第五案修正通過"},{"start":24013.579,"end":24031.522,"text":"第六案修正通過 第七案照案通過 第八案修正通過 第九案修正通過 第十案修正通過 第十一案修正通過改為主決議第十二案 十三案 十四案 十五案 十六案 十七案均照案通過"},{"start":24032.643,"end":24041.967,"text":"第18案修正通過第19案修正通過第20案修正通過第21案修正通過第22案修正通過第23案24案均照案通過第25案修正通過改為主決議第26案照案通過第27案修正通過"},{"start":24053.932,"end":24079.982,"text":"第28案及29案照案通過第30案修正通過第31案照案通過第32案及33案均修正通過第34案照案通過第35案修正通過第36案修正通過第37案及38案 39案均照案通過"},{"start":24080.942,"end":24107.674,"text":"第40案修正通過第41案第42案第43案第44案第45案第46案第47案第48案第49案均照案通過第50案修正通過第51案照案通過第52案修正通過第53案照案通過第54案修正通過改為主決議"},{"start":24108.894,"end":24133.678,"text":"第55案第56案均修正通過第55案修正通過並改為主決議第56案修正通過第57案照案通過第58案第59案均照案通過第60案修正通過第61案照案通過第62案修正通過改為主決議宣讀完畢"},{"start":24140.026,"end":24140.046,"text":"拜託"},{"start":24170.542,"end":24180.511,"text":"請問在現場的各位委員對剛才協商的結論有沒有意義沒有好沒有意義那我們就通過本次會議做成如下的一個決議"},{"start":24182.116,"end":24201.899,"text":"一 說明跟詢答已經完畢二 委員質詢為及時答覆或請補充的一個資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定委員 高鈞素梅 蔡其昌 邱益穎 魯明哲 徐欣穎"},{"start":24203.841,"end":24229.72,"text":"劉書斌 吳麗華 李懿琳 王美惠 陳樹葉 游皓 陳超明 萬美玲廖偉翔 邱志偉 張家俊 洪孟凱黃建豪 鄭天才 林淑芬 吳祁銘 徐以貞黃建斌 陳昭芝 所提的書面列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關的部會以書面答覆"},{"start":24230.501,"end":24258.35,"text":"是審查中央政府旦那斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建的特別條例預算案114年度到116年度照協商結論通過通過外其已經照列有關稅出正式有關稅出正式別那個預算隨同以上的機關那個"},{"start":24261.926,"end":24290.046,"text":"以上的機關別審查那個這什麼這裡好有關稅出的正式那個正式別預算隨同以上的機關別審查結果調整請各位委員對以上的決議有沒有異議好沒有異議那我們通過中央政府"},{"start":24291.107,"end":24311.113,"text":"丹納斯颱風級728好以災後護援重建特別條例114年到116年那個特別預算案114年度至116年度審查完均拟據審查報告提報宴會討論宴會討論前需交由黨團協商宴會討論的時候有本席"},{"start":24319.896,"end":24333.747,"text":"補充說明請各位委員對以上的決議有沒有意義好沒有意義就通過本次聯席委員會議事錄授權由本席核定後確定請問各位委員有沒有意義"},{"start":24335.248,"end":24351.541,"text":"好謝謝那本次會議議程已經進行完畢倘若有不在場的委員補題書面的執行一併列入紀錄刊登公報並且應事人員協助處理散會好謝謝大家謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16890","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcf14b58179120353a819ba3698dbd896e112bf0b47f4e58e365ae4cefdedbccc35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-08-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（ㄧ）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員羅智強等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續併案審查（一）委員傅崐萁等25人、（二）委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【8月27日及28日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-08-27","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-08-27T08:30:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-08-27T12:10:00+08:00","duration":13141,"影片長度":"03:39:01","委員發言時間":"08:30:59 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已足法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 我們現在開會進行報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年8月13日星期三上午98分至9時53分8月14日星期四上午9時至12時32分"},{"start":1949.792,"end":1965.593,"text":"地点本院红楼302会议室出席委员黄国昌委员等11人列席委员苏清泉委员等8人列席官员8月13日司法院副秘书长王梅英等人8月14日考试院秘书长刘建兴等人主席吴昭吉委员中线"},{"start":1966.614,"end":1973.942,"text":"8月13日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定討論事項1繼續並案審查委員羅志強等25人委員謝依鳳等16人分別擬據刑事訴訟法第116條之2條文修正草案案2繼續並案審查司法院"},{"start":1982.35,"end":2001.432,"text":"行政院含情審議刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等六案決議一刑事訴訟法第116條之二條文修正草案等二案進行逐條審查第116條之二趙委員羅志強等25人提案通過第二刑事訴訟法部分條文修正草案等六案進行逐條審查"},{"start":2002.473,"end":2026.381,"text":"第七十條之一不予修正維持現行條文第205條之二照司法院行政院提案通過增訂第205條之三及205條之四均照司法院行政院提案之以案行政院版通過以上二案均審查完略拟據審查報告提請院會公決不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳釗琪委員中線出席說明"},{"start":2027.801,"end":2045.829,"text":"調次引述條文部分文字及法字用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理8月14日報告事項邀請全區部部長行政院人事行政總處人事長中央選舉委員會主任委員法務部廉政署署長公務人員保障及培訓委員會率所屬相關單位列席就"},{"start":2046.409,"end":2062.286,"text":"政務人員應否及如何遵守行政重力原則行政機關於選舉罷免期間應為如何之宣導與落實進行專題報告並備諮詢決定報告及詢答完畢討論事項一 並按審查考試院行情審議公務人員考記法第十二條條文修正草案等五案"},{"start":2063.007,"end":2091.052,"text":"二 併案審查委員傅坤祺等25人 委員郭玉琴等18人分別擬據 刑事訴訟法第71條及第175條條文修正草案案本日會議有委員黃國昌等12人提出質詢 委員吳佩奕 黃宏威提出書面質詢決議一 報告及詢討完畢二 第一案及第二案均定 均令定期繼續審查三 委員執行時 要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者 請相關機關競訴 送交個別委員及本會 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2095.287,"end":2121.601,"text":"請問各位對於上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定我們介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員首先我們介紹道場委員黃國昌委員 羅志強委員還有王逸川委員接著我們介紹應邀列席官員法務部鄭明謙部長黃謀信次長司法院王梅英副秘書長"},{"start":2124.369,"end":2149.243,"text":"其餘位及介紹列席代表 請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄 本次會議排定兩天一次會首日議程所列 討論事項兩案 分別為第一案 並案審查台灣民眾黨團 凝聚中華民國刑法部分修正條文等八案第二案 繼續並案審查委員傅坤祺等25人 委員郭育群等18人分別凝聚刑事訴訟法第71條及第175條條文修正草案"},{"start":2153.365,"end":2174.202,"text":"程序一例先進行第一案提案說明及報告我們現在先進行完提案說明 每位時間為三分鐘我們首先請民眾黨黨團代表黃國昌委員進行提案說明提案說明"},{"start":2182.275,"end":2195.163,"text":"謝謝召委 治法法治委員會的各位委員以及列席的行政官員台灣民眾黨黨團在去年我們看到憲法法庭在9月30 20號做成113年憲判制第8號判決"},{"start":2199.724,"end":2227.402,"text":"不當的限縮了立法形成的空間看到一群大法官自居為立法者針對在什麼樣子的情況之下才能夠宣判死刑附加法律所沒有的要件自己恣意的在憲法法院的判決當中增加了一堆舉世無雙全世界都看不到的法律要件"},{"start":2228.663,"end":2249.496,"text":"對於司法院的大法官這種違法濫權的行為後續未來要怎麼樣追究相關的責任是另外一回事但更重要的事情是當死刑被宣告的範圍遭到不合理"},{"start":2250.515,"end":2265.927,"text":"無止境的限縮實質上面等同於幾乎不可能再出現這樣的狀況的時候社會上面所關心的 所期待的是無期徒刑在實際上面運作的效果"},{"start":2266.994,"end":2286.119,"text":"無期突襲的宣告在我國司法實務上過去數十年它只存在於紙上是最典型所謂的paper law從來沒有在具體的實務上面被踐行我們以102年到111年的數據來當作一個實際觀察的指標會發現"},{"start":2293.553,"end":2299.543,"text":"102年到111年受無期徒刑宣告的假釋出獄人數高達657個人"},{"start":2303.874,"end":2326.548,"text":"有657個人在這段期間當中他受的是無期徒刑的宣告但是他被假釋了而假釋平均在監執行的時間只有17.9年等於是這一個無期徒刑的宣告形同句文 毫無任何實質的意義"},{"start":2327.589,"end":2353.332,"text":"不僅不是無期徒刑甚至連無期徒刑假釋法定最低的門檻通通都沒有達到嚴重的衝擊了人民對於公平正義實踐的信心當然也會影響到我國的刑事司法制度是不是能夠具體發揮制度本來應該有的功能所以"},{"start":2354.073,"end":2377.135,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團我們特別提案有兩個修正的動點第一個無期徒刑一般的假釋門檻從25年再提升為30年第二個更重要的事情是可以由法院宣告無期徒刑不得假釋我必須要說明的是我國的假釋制度長期以來"},{"start":2379.617,"end":2405.856,"text":"把這麼重要的權利攸關一半以上的刑期到底要不要執行也就是經過檢察官起訴法院三審判刑定议最後所定的刑期竟然有超過一半以上的刑期是由不具中立性的行政官員所來決定的導致過去在所謂的黑箱假釋的制度當中"},{"start":2406.616,"end":2424.57,"text":"出現了非常多上下其手的弊案甚至有立法委員大剌剌的把手伸到有關於假釋個案當中引發了非常多的醜聞跟弊案我相信當初"},{"start":2426.511,"end":2445.427,"text":"特徵組還在的時候在辦六十一在辦特他六十一的時候在立法院裡面所留下來醜陋的歷史紀錄斑斑可考因此針對有關於在無期徒刑如果認為有必要"},{"start":2446.448,"end":2471.648,"text":"不可以給他假釋的話這個權限當然應該要收歸由法院的法官具體的來加以執行事實上整個假釋的制度都必須要全盤徹底的檢討把這麼重要的權利一半以上的刑期到底要不要執行交給行政官員來加以決定是一件荒謬的事情但是"},{"start":2473.004,"end":2487.243,"text":"推動改革我們一步一步來針對有關於增加不得假釋的無期徒刑這種刑法種類本來就是法官在具體個案量刑的時候他可以斟酌的事項也就是"},{"start":2488.264,"end":2506.474,"text":"當法官受到我們憲法法庭的判決不合理的拘束沒有辦法透過一字決來達成死刑的判決的時候這個時候他當然退而求其次可以選擇宣告不得假釋的無期徒刑"},{"start":2507.354,"end":2519.748,"text":"這個是司法權在運作的時候本質上所因然那因此在制度的設計上我們認為無期徒刑到底可不可以假釋有沒有必要在"},{"start":2520.842,"end":2543.327,"text":"本來所應該考慮的刑期當中為了要去救濟我們目前死刑的宣告被憲法法庭不當的限縮在真假不得假式的無期徒刑的時候讓法官在具體的個案當中能夠選擇來加以宣告我相信這個是全體國人大家所共同期待的事項"},{"start":2544.327,"end":2562.234,"text":"當然到今天為止在去年大聲的說年底以前我們一定會提出修正草案會推動修法的法務部包括行政院到今天本司法法制委員會要審法案"},{"start":2563.635,"end":2591.424,"text":"行政院的版本根本沒有送來行政院的版本根本沒有送來這裡面誰怠惰 誰失職 誰講話不算話我相信今天在座的法務部部長鄭明謙自己心裡非常的清楚對社會做過什麼宣告實際上面做出來的效果是什麼行政院很忙嗎 在忙什麼忙大罷免大成功嗎"},{"start":2592.921,"end":2618.483,"text":"行政院院長率著閣員下鄉去助攻罷免在野黨的立委破壞台灣的民主制度結果正式不幹跟社會承諾過的全民這麼關注的法案到今天竟然連行政院的版本都沒有提出來令人不僅遺憾而且我相信非常多的人民是感到憤怒的 謝謝"},{"start":2620.404,"end":2645.532,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 那下一位我們請羅志強委員進行提案說明有需要 要做提案說明 不用那我麻煩羅委員你代理主席一下我先提案說明等一下 先幫我"},{"start":2656.568,"end":2684.225,"text":"有請吳宗憲委員提案說明今天我提案說明的部分主要就是109年4月以來我們已經有超過5年沒有實行定驗的判決再加上113年憲判8號其實大法官認為說實行核憲但是他卻設下了八大關卡這八大關卡已經讓我國實行要判決確定的話已經是不可能的事情了"},{"start":2685.126,"end":2707.805,"text":"那裡面有一些條件譬如說什麼叫做最嚴重之罪或者是說要求各級法院的法官要一致決這個東西其實都是在實務上面幾乎不可能達到更何況我國我國是世界上唯一一個要求死刑要有法事實審議及法律審法官都要一致決才能判死的"},{"start":2708.789,"end":2724.364,"text":"的國家所以這樣子的修法這樣子的憲法判決其實是造成了實務上面真正的實質廢食不管今天這些政客的嘴巴或者是一些有偏頗立場的這些"},{"start":2725.906,"end":2740.586,"text":"學者怎麼說那事實上我想要告訴各位告訴國人就是我們目前國家已經實質的廢除死刑那我們再看一下其實斯多獎女教師遭殺害的案子她凶嫌五度判死刑"},{"start":2741.027,"end":2766.486,"text":"但是在宪判8号出来之后他最后就逃死了无期徒刑定议那马来西亚女大生性侵杀害案件呢这被告也是从一审到更一审都认为他没有教化可能性结果呢今年4月最高法院还是认为他有教化可能性而撤销发回在审我想最后最高的几率应该还是判无期徒刑因为这些法官应该是很懂现在我们的整个政治的风向"},{"start":2766.986,"end":2781.764,"text":"那從防務部的資料來看以及剛剛黃委員有提到其實我國有657名無期徒刑的受刑人在2013年到2022年獲准假釋而他們平均服刑的期間只有17.9年"},{"start":2783.226,"end":2807.958,"text":"也就是說他雖然判無期徒刑但是他只服刑17.9年他就出獄了他可能比許多有期徒刑的要服20年以上都還關得少所以無期徒刑在我國根本就變成有期徒刑或是變成一些有心人士伸手介入假釋的何準與否的一個很大的問題點那最糟糕的是最近10年撤銷假釋人數有18407人"},{"start":2811.38,"end":2836.5,"text":"故意犯罪占57%也就是说假释出来的人有将近六成会再犯这个是不是大家到底有没有注意到这个问题所以我希望把无期徒刑分为三级那第一级就是终身监禁不得假释第二级是要服刑40年才可以申请假释第三级无期徒刑是维持现行法是25年才可以假释那为什么我会用40年"},{"start":2837.461,"end":2855.287,"text":"的這個概念其實我是比對於我國行法立法的時候是在民國23年那當時呢中華民國的人民的平均歲數大概是40幾歲那所以你18歲成年到你40歲左右大概是有大概有22年的這個"},{"start":2858.547,"end":2884.654,"text":"平均余命但是現在的國人他的壽命到80歲了也就是說他18歲到80歲其實他有62年的平均余命這個是不是我們應該去思考我國無期徒刑假釋的時間或是有期徒刑的上限應該要拉長這是科學的數據這不是說我們想數字多少就多少我想我提出這個要求並不是說我改變了知識死刑的"},{"start":2885.854,"end":2909.054,"text":"立場因為現行的審判15死刑絕對是名存實亡了那我們政府不思考怎麼去補救這個死刑跟現行無期徒刑的差距或是原本無期徒刑到死刑無期徒刑25年就可以假釋但是他下一關就是死刑中間有一個太大的空白完全沒有人去理會那這個在司法實務上面都是一個大問題"},{"start":2909.955,"end":2932.08,"text":"那我既然我一直大聲疾呼這個問題那法務部也說去年也說要提出修正的草案但是我們也都沒有看到所以我想大家都不行動那我自己只好雞婆一點自己攬下來做我想過往到現在我們一直發現一件事情執政黨整天在鬥爭在做他在野黨時候在做的事情"},{"start":2933.261,"end":2952.035,"text":"現在變成在野黨的委員心疼這個國家然後拼命在做執政黨該做的事情但是我們還是必須要去做我覺得就是這些對於這些人神共憤天理難容的被告既然不能判死那就把他關到死我覺得這是全國人民心中應該幾乎一致的想法"},{"start":2953.342,"end":2967.972,"text":"我再說一次這些人神共憤天理難容的殺人犯既然你法官不敢判他死刑那你至少把他關到死永久跟社會隔離這也不是就當年死刑判決後面一定會加上一句說法就是永久與社會隔絕不是這樣嗎"},{"start":2968.692,"end":2996.709,"text":"所以这个才是对国家有利最后再提到还有一个修正的重点是合并刑度的修正我国目前合并因执行刑最高30年也就是说你不管干了多少坏事多少条加起来你犯了200条300条加起来最高只能30年那这个跟我们平均余命来比其实是不对的也就是说今天有可能一个状况是你犯越多结果你判得越轻你的折扣越大"},{"start":2997.569,"end":3008.719,"text":"你变成说你犯罪你伤害越多人你到最后就像拿百货公司会员卡一样你的打折就打越多这个在现行也应该是不被接受的所以我想"},{"start":3010.604,"end":3034.464,"text":"最後我想就是政府沒有能力使被害人不被殺死但卻有能力讓被告不被判死這個我想不是社會大眾能夠接受的我想這次修法我只有一個目標就是我希望第一個無期徒刑分級第二個就是合併因執行從30年提高到40年我們要讓行為人對他所做的犯罪跟所受到的刑罰能夠相當"},{"start":3035.965,"end":3061.848,"text":"要罪行要相當這樣的判決才能符合期待讓法律能夠真正落實公平正義我們現在請羅志祥做提案說明好"},{"start":3062.614,"end":3078.696,"text":"近年來我們經常看到家庭暴力跟虐童案件已經引發社會的高度的關切那根據內政部統計資料過去10年有261位兒童跟少年是遭肆虐死亡"},{"start":3079.637,"end":3097.095,"text":"這是何其讓大家覺得沉痛的一個數字那其中屬父母照顧者等家庭成員不當對待致死是235人然後依契約或職務對兒少有照顧義務之人不當對待致死就是26人"},{"start":3098.576,"end":3120.492,"text":"所以在朝野共識之下我們在113年三讀通過增加對虐童案件的刑罰力度但事實上提高刑度還不足以有效遏止這類事件的發生因為就刑法286條司法15來看現在其實有少用化跟輕刑化的趨勢"},{"start":3121.926,"end":3147.524,"text":"那麼第一個刑法第286條它其實並不是一個常被使用的條文在2015年到2024年的過去十年裡面以地方法院審理來說甚至有兩年是一件違反刑法286條的裁判都沒有那平均一年只有5.7件所以我這邊主張真烈不得假釋"},{"start":3150.629,"end":3170.769,"text":"對現行假釋制度影響是相當有限那也要明確說這10年當中涉犯刑法286條以地方法院的判決來說也只有一件被判無期徒刑那10年98件的罪次裡面判5年以下有期徒刑的只有18件佔比不到兩成"},{"start":3171.75,"end":3186.178,"text":"反觀一年以下有53件占比五成四當然不是說每一件重大虐待兒童或少年有些可能只是輕傷可是從刑度來說跟社會期待是有相當大的差距所以"},{"start":3186.986,"end":3207.842,"text":"虽然我们有将刑法286条刑度提高但是刚刚提出的数据其实还没有纳入修法后的裁判判决情形所以因此如果刑法286条继续轻判那又缺乏针对肆虐者假释的限制规定的话那虐童者可能提前获得假释"},{"start":3208.422,"end":3228.357,"text":"也可能造成施虐者輕視司法正義也讓提高刑罰的效果大打折扣所以這邊我是建議為了有效保護兒童的身心安全應該要立法限縮虐童犯罪假釋之適用來確保司法公正跟社會安全以上 謝謝"},{"start":3230.68,"end":3238.125,"text":"好 謝謝 接著我們進行機關報告我們每位發言時間三分鐘我們先請法務部部長 政部長報告"},{"start":3244.216,"end":3262.464,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天奉要列席並代表本部報告並備諮詢之報告如下那有關病案審查刑法修正假釋其無期徒刑加重減輕等相關規定部分感謝各位委員長期對這個議題的關心跟重視本部贊同提案委員的修法目的"},{"start":3263.044,"end":3291.531,"text":"尊重大院立法政策的決定本部支持針對特殊暴力犯罪類型的重刑犯應該修正明定終身監禁的一個條款共同遏止不法維護社會正義本部已經理據刑法假釋相關修正查案分別在去年10月11月函請行政院審查行政院召開四次的審查會議修正重點包括故意殺人或殺人未遂的行為侵害生命法義惡性中大如果經法院"},{"start":3292.151,"end":3307.908,"text":"判處無期徒刑及有期徒刑超過十年刑法將證定不得假釋條款花費刑法所應據的功能維護社會正義修正草原也將明定無期徒刑受刑人一旦被撤下假釋應執行無期徒刑而不是有期徒刑的固定殘刑"},{"start":3309.069,"end":3325.838,"text":"本部已經履具刑法施行法查案明對規範新舊法適用的依據本部將根據推動修法在行政院院會通過並完成與司法院會行後將進行訴訟大院審議也希望能獲得各位委員的支持有關部分委員版本規要"},{"start":3326.812,"end":3348.086,"text":"由法院宣告不得假釋的條款建立在刑事實體法程序法明定審酌標準訴訟程序及救濟途徑的配套新化私刑法也需要明定假釋後假釋修法後新舊法適用的準據實務才能夠有落實執行避免法律適用的分歧"},{"start":3348.726,"end":3378.266,"text":"如果採取無期徒刑分期制度刑法分責及刑事特別法可能需要全面的盤點修正法定型較能夠實現委員的提案目的有關本部對各位委員版本及刑法執行實務操作的關聯等法制意見請各位委員參考本部的書面意見最後對刑事訴訟法第七十一條第一百七十五條條文修正查案部分請參考一四年八月四日本部書面的報告以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教"},{"start":3382.176,"end":3385.526,"text":"好那我們下一位請王副秘書長報告"},{"start":3394.775,"end":3410.365,"text":"好 主席各位委員各位先生大家早安 大家好今天貴委員會並案審查及繼續並案審查刑法刑事訴訟法等案本院奉邀列席報告那次報告如下敬請指教第一個關於台灣民眾黨黨團委員需"},{"start":3413.487,"end":3428.875,"text":"預爭等十八人所分別擬聚的中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案草案第三三條之一呢對於被告或是受刑人呢影響頗巨那以否增訂相關的適用要件提升"},{"start":3430.175,"end":3454.998,"text":"規範的明確性還有預見的可能性這見請審酌另外有沒有在修正刑法64條那個必要議請再酌第二點關於委員吳宗憲等20人所擬聚的中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案草案規劃將無期徒刑區分成一級無期徒刑二級無期徒刑及三級無期徒刑"},{"start":3455.999,"end":3474.969,"text":"但是沒有將這三個刑種在刑法分則還有個刑事特別法一併盤點修正在罪刑法定原則下恐身一役且該三個刑種在可否假釋"},{"start":3476.09,"end":3499.618,"text":"還有假設條件上差距甚大那對於被告跟受刑人的影響都非常深遠的所以呢以否要增訂相關的適用要件提升規範的明確性還有預見的可能性也漸行審酌那有79條之一第五項的適用結果無期徒刑撤銷假釋之後他必須執行的殘餘刑期"},{"start":3501.318,"end":3528.525,"text":"甚至可能短於有期徒刑撤銷假釋之後需執行的殘餘刑期那有無輕重失衡之餘這也亦請斟酌那關於個案其餘的意見請參閱本院在今天還有在114年8月14號所提出的書面報告以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教謝謝各位"},{"start":3529.985,"end":3535.452,"text":"好 謝謝 那其一提出書面報告的機關有沒有需要口頭補充沒有的話"},{"start":3540.067,"end":3566.561,"text":"機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄現在我們開始進行詢答由於詢答後我們要接續進行法案的審查所以今天的時間我們會控比較緊這邊跟各位委員先致歉本會委員詢答時間為六分鐘必要時得延長兩分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為四分鐘不再延長上午十點三分截止發言登記"},{"start":3567.521,"end":3585.934,"text":"我們現在先請第一位黃國昌委員發言好 謝謝主席麻煩有請法務部部長 司法院副秘書長麻煩部長副秘"},{"start":3593.82,"end":3611.153,"text":"委員早安好 兩位早台大法學院閻君安教授針對民進黨所發動的大惡霸他特別從憲政的觀點寫了一篇令人省思的文章"},{"start":3612.267,"end":3633.279,"text":"他說這場憑空發動的無差別大罷免就是一場耍法術 走歪路的趨近解散國會人民的選擇做出來了 嚴絕恩教授主張這個時候不但卓院長應該要辭職下台整個內閣都應該打掉重練來 請教部長 贊不贊成這是嚴教授的意見你贊不贊成我們尊重"},{"start":3640.188,"end":3667.8,"text":"你個人讚不讚成我不講個人意見你不講個人意見來看一下你有遞辭職信嗎這部分我不需要在這邊做一個你不需要在這邊說明所以你的意思是什麼部長有沒有遞辭職信有沒有展現風骨不需要跟國會說明現在關這麼大這個內閣要不要改組那這個是現在我不是問內閣要不要改組現在我是問你有沒有遞辭職信"},{"start":3669.693,"end":3672.848,"text":"你有沒有第十支線你居功絕尾 你有沒有第十支線"},{"start":3674.335,"end":3699.348,"text":"有還是沒有這個為什麼要遞辭職信那你自己覺得嘛你為什麼要遞辭職信嘛學者主張整個內閣都要打掉重練你很有信心啊覺得你為什麼要遞辭職信你說的沒有錯啊你放心啊你居功絕尾啦不會要你辭職啦一定留任你的啦你這麼好用怎麼會要你遞辭職信呢"},{"start":3700.368,"end":3721.701,"text":"對不對 這麼好用怎麼會要你遞辭職信呢公在黨國啊對民進黨貢獻非常的大怎麼會要你遞辭職信 放心啊你的官位啊 非常的穩啊跟著黨走 依照黨的意志司法怎麼搞爛 都沒有關係你不要學那個 那個好 來 再來這些語調啦接下來"},{"start":3722.962,"end":3737.667,"text":"我用什麼語調給你質詢喔不是你在這邊可以說三道四的啦什麼叫做我不要學用什麼語調你什麼態度啊你什麼態度啊今天是你在背詢還是我在背詢啊在國會這麼囂張喔這麼囂張喔這個內閣有在反省嗎有在檢討嗎部長在這裡講話這麼囂張喔"},{"start":3753.153,"end":3764.63,"text":"來 爆發了大綠能弊案小英男孩被抓了那當然 郭志輝說啊後面還有更大尾的要不要約談郭志輝"},{"start":3768.224,"end":3788.871,"text":"這個證據當然也就辦到哪裡我完全尊重台北地檢署的偵查的一個計畫台北地檢署的偵查進度由誰決定的我不能去干涉指導 指導是 台北地檢署的偵查進度由誰決定的這由台北地檢署的偵查團隊在決定偵查團隊嘛 好是由承辦檢察官還是由檢察長來決定的"},{"start":3790.471,"end":3806.104,"text":"這我不清楚這你不清楚 奇怪了因為我不會指導介入干涉所以嘛 你要看具體個案上面到底要聽陳辦檢察官的還是聽檢察長的為什麼問你這個問題 這很重要啊這會涉及到什麼上級有沒有指導下級嘛"},{"start":3807.425,"end":3832.25,"text":"這很重要啊 所以我才問你啊從法務部的立場 從規範的觀點應該要聽誰的 聽懲辦檢察官的 還是聽檢察長的這個偵查團體檢查議題嘛 本來就是一個偵查團隊嘛是 好 你是不是知道這個案子 去年就要動了這個案件本來就是在鎮場你是不是知道這個案子去年就要動了這個我不清楚這你不清楚 那我現在跟你講"},{"start":3833.854,"end":3860.55,"text":"我在這邊直接公開檢舉啦讓你們回去查啦這個案子去年就要動啦是誰叫懲辦檢察官不要動啦部長應該也不知道王俊麗叫懲辦檢察官不要動啊王俊麗叫懲辦檢察官不要動啊怎麼會搞到823以後才開始動這個案子整整押了一年欸這個案子押一年你知不知道你也不知道嘛"},{"start":3861.84,"end":3874,"text":"在黑箱裡面的作業用檢查一體來遮掩一堆案子能壓就壓 能拖就拖 能混就混配合著政治在辦案"},{"start":3875.425,"end":3899.946,"text":"還有臉在這邊講尊重檢察官的偵辦沒有關係啊我在這邊講話我負責嘛承辦檢察官去年要動王俊麗說不要動拖到823以後才動拖到823以後才動就像郭志輝講的啦大圍跑掉了啦大圍跑掉了啦順便去了解一下拖了這麼久有沒有洩密的問題接下來"},{"start":3902.475,"end":3924.391,"text":"避免執政者以人事控制個案2017年司改國是會議決議的內容民進黨秘書長憑什麼喬司法人事啊民進黨秘書長可以喬司法人事嗎這個就是所謂的什麼司法獨立檢察官獨立嗎王俊麗現在北檢啊當紅檢察官啊"},{"start":3927.319,"end":3951.13,"text":"結果他當上調查局局長竟然是在他桃園地檢署任內他所偵辦貪污犯的犯罪嫌疑人鄭文燦去幫他喬的這個事情也太荒謬了吧這個事情也太荒謬了吧部長一直在這邊說尊重檢察官司法獨立檢察官獨立獨立在哪裡獨立在哪裡"},{"start":3954.076,"end":3970.848,"text":"一個犯罪嫌疑人王俊麗是檢察長負責偵辦這個案件最後還牽結結果王俊麗當上調查局局長是鄭文燦去喬的部長這個符合2017年思考國事會議決議的內容嗎"},{"start":3976.125,"end":3989.481,"text":"這個怎麼樣這個怎麼那個案往的這一件高檢也是在偵查中了嘛對啊 所以要拖多久反正以拖待變嘛在這邊受到社會質疑的時候我們有在調查了啦"},{"start":3990.843,"end":4015.815,"text":"要調查到什麼時候 不知道要調查多久 不知道相關的案子啊 慶祝難輸啊慶祝難輸啊三年前這個國會 上一屆的國會在調查淨電勢必案的時候一模一樣的論調啦司法檢調在調查了啦調查什麼現在案子在北檢檢察官手上啊我公開在國會講過啊"},{"start":4017.577,"end":4042.717,"text":"人家調查員要動檢察官說不准動通通不准動這樣的司法偵辦有獨立性有公信力看著顏色在辦案而已啦抓小放大啦能拖就拖 能混就混再來看這些被爆料出來的"},{"start":4044.242,"end":4071.007,"text":"臨時要很大他關說的司法人士一件一件全部符合客觀事實上一次廉政署的副署長在這邊的時候我就問他問他說請託關桌人士要不要進行廉政登錄他給我的回答是要要進行廉政登錄我後來去文法務部請教有做廉政登錄嗎你們有回文給我有做廉政登錄嗎"},{"start":4072.932,"end":4079.618,"text":"有嗎沒有登錄依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果所以依照公務人員廉政倫理規範應該產生什麼法律效果對不起喔第一個你已經確認沒登錄了嘛"},{"start":4091.89,"end":4106.423,"text":"第二個 我現在問你嘛沒有登錄應該產生什麼法律效果嗎這麼簡單的問題都不敢回答喔這個要尊重 這個還沒有調查完我怎麼去回答個案的問題呢奇怪了 公務人員廉政倫理規範是行政調查還是刑事調查"},{"start":4108.078,"end":4132.064,"text":"你當一個部長 連行政調查跟刑事調查都搞不清楚喔拜託 不要在這邊講空話 形成並行啦行政調查是一回事 司法調查是一回事你怎麼當一個法務部部長 連這麼基本的ABC都搞不清楚啊那我就問你嘛 有關於廉政倫理是行政調查還是刑事調查"},{"start":4133.064,"end":4157.361,"text":"是行政調查還是刑事調查我已經跟委員答覆了就是這個沒有請託關稅的登錄所以下一個問題違反公務人員的廉政倫理規範是行政事項還是刑事事項是行政事項還是刑事事項不敢回答喔法學的ABC不敢回答喔這就是行政事項啊"},{"start":4159.028,"end":4181.159,"text":"行政事項你們法務部現在做什麼全部推給刑事調查哇 真好用欸真便利欸刑事調查現在變成了你們遇到廉政倫理規範行政該處理的車修部啦動都不用動喔可以這樣嗎可以這樣嗎可以這樣嗎"},{"start":4189.358,"end":4214.116,"text":"你現在在等到時間 看著表 看時間拖過去沒有是不是還笑得出來 看著表 哇我時間終於混過去啦我在上面問問題 我就是不回答 看你要怎麼辦來 我們接下來繼續往下看思改國事會議 會議的結論檢審會要不要加入外部委員"},{"start":4215.558,"end":4239.661,"text":"這個我反對這個你反對喔所以你個人的意志超越了思改國事會議的決議嘛非常的有擔當啊現在我們賴清德任命的法務部部長一個人大聲的起呼說我反對檢察官人事委員會有外部委員難怪嘛難怪思改國事會議"},{"start":4240.882,"end":4262.029,"text":"不僅僅是放天燈 大敗敗現在是民進黨政府任命的法務部部長直接宣布司改國事會議歸司改國事會議的找一堆學者專家來大家來共同討論的結論我法務部部長鄭明謙我就是反對 真厲害"},{"start":4264.93,"end":4270.935,"text":"那這樣子我要把司改國事會議全部丟到垃圾桶去就好了嘛用個人的一個意志來凌駕司改國事會議的決議來看一下齁 來來來全中華民國通通都不懂 只有你鄭明謙一個人懂"},{"start":4287.888,"end":4292.37,"text":"這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎這不是司改國是會議的決議嗎來看一下 只有你一個人懂嗎司法改革國是會議第三組分組會議 增開會議決議"},{"start":4304.365,"end":4329.745,"text":"檢查人事制度的民主化為使檢查人事制度符合民主問責並回應多元價值法務部檢察官人事審議委員應比照司法院法官人事審議委員會規定加入外部委員來 有請司法院副秘書長法官人事審議委員會有沒有外部委員有的"},{"start":4330.74,"end":4340.776,"text":"司改國事會議的決議對司法院而言現在算什麼 算垃圾是不是司改國事會議的決議對司法院而言到底還算不算個東西"},{"start":4342.025,"end":4353.834,"text":"到底還算不算個東西你站在你旁邊的法務部長很傲慢啦我部長反對啦私下國事會議開什麼不好意思齁我沒有請教你不要搶人家的麥克風那個法務部你那個聽名權跟伙覺權還有沒有那個審議權"},{"start":4360.779,"end":4385.664,"text":"一樣一樣來啦你不能這樣講啦我只有問你一件事情嘛私改國事會議的決議那個司法院的是不是有提名權跟審議權有沒有否決權嘛你今天在這邊在國會公然講我反對私改國事會議的決議我現在在請教司法院副秘書長你有夠沒禮貌的沒有我同意 沒有主席同意自己站在旁邊麥克風就搶來講喔我現在在請教司法院的副秘書長"},{"start":4387.064,"end":4414.015,"text":"寧願你現在當法務部部長在國會裡面愛幹嘛就幹嘛喔我有請你回答嗎我有請你回答嗎現在法務部部長是怎麼樣全國檢調在我手上誰敢對我怎麼樣這麼囂張喔你在國會殿堂就這麼囂張喔走出這個地方來請司法院副秘書長"},{"start":4415.627,"end":4434.936,"text":"來 斯卡國際會議的決議對於現在的司法院而言算什麼你可以報告委員就是司法院就我們所主管的這些那個法案還有政策呢我們還是會本於我們主管那個機關就是來審議的對啊 你還是沒有回答我問題啊斯卡國際會議的決議對司法院算什麼"},{"start":4436.127,"end":4450.215,"text":"法務部部長表明得很清楚啦思改國際會議的決議對我現任賴清德所任命的鄭明謙根本是空氣啊一點都不重要啦我鄭明謙說了算啦因為我現在當法務部部長"},{"start":4453.201,"end":4470.068,"text":"讓大家所有參與史改國式會議全國的學者專家所有的外部委員大家聽清楚以後民進黨要召開任何的國式會議不要再相信民進黨了找來有什麼用花了納稅人大筆的銀子"},{"start":4472.188,"end":4483.733,"text":"學者專家做了決議我就沒有要遵守嘛重點那個是一個民主化的問題嘛現在是檢察官民主化的問題嘛那現在已經是完全檢察官票選的民主化的問題了什麼時候司法法制委員會的規矩變這樣現在沒有請他上來回答的人可以自己上來搶麥克風喔"},{"start":4499.798,"end":4523.311,"text":"什麼時候受到法治委員會的規矩變這樣我有說錯嗎世界國事會議的決議我白紙黑字都貼在這邊這不是我黃國昌一個人講的這是第三分組第一次增開會議的決議法官人是審議委員會法官人家都有外部委員"},{"start":4525.327,"end":4545.104,"text":"司改國制會議做這樣的決議司法院也遵守但我們現在的法務部很厲害太上皇機關我不遵守就是不遵守你個人反對沒有關係你個人反對你繼續反對修法到底會過不會過是立法院決定不是你鄭明謙一個人決定"},{"start":4550.927,"end":4555.988,"text":"好 謝謝 下一位我們麻煩羅委員來代理主席請吳宗憲委員我們請部長還有副秘書長部長 副秘書長"},{"start":4579.876,"end":4600.117,"text":"委員好先請教部長我們上一次有提到就是有一位性侵性侵的受刑人他保外就醫然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性結果後來我們發現"},{"start":4601.84,"end":4627.992,"text":"在我們現在國家非常有趣的就是舊省的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐譬如說蔡正元譬如說黃磊景如都被要求戴電子腳鐐結果呢性侵的被性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人那請問這個部分呢當時我有提到"},{"start":4628.973,"end":4646.878,"text":"第一個就是性侵被告受刑人他們保外就醫的時候的管理以及第二個保外就醫辦法有提到一個第12條就是如果他治癒或者是說明顯改善的時候監獄指定7天以上的期日"},{"start":4647.618,"end":4665.545,"text":"要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行那我當時覺得為什麼要有七天難道我們是一個小小多山的國家所以我們一個東西竟然要有七天這麼長的時間通知他回來執行我覺得這個不合理那請問一下部長在這段時間你們有研議了嗎"},{"start":4666.846,"end":4680.382,"text":"就這兩個部分跟委員報告 事實上我們對這個我們請矯正署要做一個嚴厲檢討那這個降仿式的密度我們會加強另外我會做一個修法譬如說反加碳式的一個辦法"},{"start":4681.383,"end":4700.11,"text":"那另外我現在在跟你談的是保外就醫對 保外就醫另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據那這部分我們會嚴厲來做有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好"},{"start":4707.799,"end":4731.374,"text":"所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來你跟我說一下有沒有任何進度了有沒有再研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到他那個在8月8月5號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了但是已經在開申請所有法制作業的一則啟動"},{"start":4733.676,"end":4748.929,"text":"那你們還要多久可以完成就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已它其實只是辦法它不是法律我會去弄繳證書要繳證書他們去研議那可不可以速度再快一點那我們會加"},{"start":4750.39,"end":4773.982,"text":"尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些看起來人畜無害的人結果你要嚴格的監控結果這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪這對不起國人"},{"start":4775.41,"end":4791.048,"text":"那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我那我再問下一個問題部長你去年9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到"},{"start":4792.186,"end":4815.88,"text":"這個修法我們有修77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的1130憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會"},{"start":4818.642,"end":4835.029,"text":"昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定"},{"start":4836.169,"end":4865.168,"text":"我覺得就算了 我不敢再期待行政院了如果在那邊又推給行政院那就算了我跟你講 包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述 憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述完全胡說八道騙國人你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話 我有在問你嗎部長 我有在問你嗎部長 你一定要搶答嗎 麻煩時間停止"},{"start":4866.389,"end":4890.797,"text":"部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣"},{"start":4892.824,"end":4921.269,"text":"我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業了有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做就愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎"},{"start":4922.748,"end":4951.193,"text":"哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子"},{"start":4954.229,"end":4967.334,"text":"我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦"},{"start":4968.584,"end":4996.534,"text":"我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論"},{"start":4997.955,"end":5024.181,"text":"然後呢 已經送到行政院去審理那8月12號是第五次的一個審查那我想他應該是到尾聲那叫審訊了嘛法務部已經把草案已經送到行政院好 我知道 我知道好 我了解了 你不用再講了我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾結果我們永遠等不到譬如說 我講一個啦 階幣者保護法不法關說 棄保潛逃"},{"start":5025.23,"end":5047.861,"text":"然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家 疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講"},{"start":5052.023,"end":5074.849,"text":"我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面 我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務 大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面 給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講 講死大家好好的來就法律過去或"},{"start":5075.889,"end":5103.078,"text":"過去政府有一些不對的地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個"},{"start":5104.622,"end":5133.341,"text":"保外就醫期間的一些監督因為上一次你跟矯正署署長兩個有提到就是說你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官"},{"start":5134.842,"end":5156.298,"text":"所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是"},{"start":5158.891,"end":5183.733,"text":"教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在"},{"start":5184.634,"end":5194.504,"text":"你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密 请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准"},{"start":5196.096,"end":5223.536,"text":"首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院呢也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構"},{"start":5224.617,"end":5248.831,"text":"那如果这部分想要我们是不是可以请那个我们的刑事厅长来进一步说明还是用书面这个部分你书面给我好了因为我还是认为教化可能性这句话目前还没有办法找到一个很详细的一个标准然后另外就是说因为我们现在对于判决死刑的部分你现在是被告行为时也要有识别的能力"},{"start":5249.651,"end":5266.699,"text":"受就審時也要 執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的"},{"start":5267.279,"end":5289.569,"text":"不管他在外面多壞他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖而且非常孝順所以人家說全台灣孝順的人密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說都說你不能關我我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說法庭變成是大家演戲爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性 傅敏"},{"start":5290.697,"end":5314.549,"text":"那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌"},{"start":5316.229,"end":5325.93,"text":"好吧那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得"},{"start":5327.372,"end":5346.61,"text":"已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了"},{"start":5349.048,"end":5373.985,"text":"所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺其實我看完那個判決我有感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲演到很厲害所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個"},{"start":5375.447,"end":5384.877,"text":"我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年"},{"start":5393.125,"end":5411.557,"text":"關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面"},{"start":5413.938,"end":5429.625,"text":"讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是 就是還有在什麼時候適用因為它的法律效果竟然不一樣就是它應該更明確性OK 好 那我懂就是說至少複密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎"},{"start":5431.967,"end":5446.228,"text":"这个我们尊重委员的一个体验那我想这个要有做一个配套因为我在那个报告中有讲因为这还要对应那个分折的问题那这边最后我就跟那个富密这边说明一下就我很谢谢你们对无期徒刑分级是支持的"},{"start":5447.029,"end":5464.78,"text":"至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇"},{"start":5466.241,"end":5489.559,"text":"總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想這部分就謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好 那個"},{"start":5490.62,"end":5499.429,"text":"部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下"},{"start":5500.612,"end":5524.522,"text":"一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在"},{"start":5525.382,"end":5552.745,"text":"我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了"},{"start":5554.34,"end":5572.577,"text":"釋憲或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行那沒關係 部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好 謝謝柯文"},{"start":5586.564,"end":5612.374,"text":"好 下一位我們請王逸川委員好 主席我們請法務部部長好 麻煩部長好 我們請委員會司法院副秘書長麻煩副秘書長"},{"start":5616.548,"end":5640.623,"text":"部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由法官來決定白話文是這樣就法官在判的時候直接判說我現在判你這個罪但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說我判你這個罪"},{"start":5641.67,"end":5662.649,"text":"在判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級二級三級那你如果要假釋有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋大概是這樣那這個責任就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他"},{"start":5663.666,"end":5683.318,"text":"定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論"},{"start":5686.075,"end":5699.407,"text":"那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法"},{"start":5700.305,"end":5704.749,"text":"對 可以啊 用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的"},{"start":5724.989,"end":5754.669,"text":"那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間他要的要件的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求"},{"start":5755.69,"end":5770.149,"text":"我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這一個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎"},{"start":5773.827,"end":5793.852,"text":"開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的大家專家學者來討論我覺得這當然是非常好的事情這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法我們尊重主責機關還有大院的權限可是我在這裡還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議一起思考的"},{"start":5794.432,"end":5821.322,"text":"因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假施的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得"},{"start":5822.322,"end":5833.887,"text":"但是就是說這個社會上總是覺得說現在都不能判私刑不能判私刑 最少也判死是我有這種講法是不能判私刑最少也判到都不能給出來太可惡了太可惡了但是因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是我就不給他出來我就這樣 這種太可惡了不給他出來所以鄭部長這個"},{"start":5852.413,"end":5876.093,"text":"請問一下 你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下現在行政院的這個草案裡頭大概有哪些類型"},{"start":5877.13,"end":5892.217,"text":"就是行政院 法務部或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計大概現在大概"},{"start":5893.237,"end":5911.8,"text":"最主要線說在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都10年以上有記住這個罪我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些是吧這個比較久另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了被撤銷後再再犯無期"},{"start":5912.28,"end":5939.992,"text":"對判無期徒刑這個也不能假設好 這是你們的看法對 因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分因為有這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個虐童 這個坑喔那也許虐童他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童可是大家看到那個影片啦哇 這些怎麼這麼坑喔"},{"start":5942.093,"end":5962.722,"text":"那對這個小朋友的身心啊 都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種的不能保護他 想要什麼 關到死就是會有這樣的一個 一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些 就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些 這種的就不要給他假釋 給他關起來"},{"start":5963.717,"end":5984.127,"text":"那這種事情不用討論嗎 部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這一部分"},{"start":5984.907,"end":5997.556,"text":"這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面的因為的確是人審公募一定要是人審公募天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公募大家看電視說這個這麼空過了幾年之後判下來"},{"start":6005.355,"end":6016.684,"text":"看來說這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論所以我是建議這樣因為這個修法過程剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過大英到現在我看到要一年了這個過程中"},{"start":6023.289,"end":6040.278,"text":"我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒有參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待 社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭也不能說這個"},{"start":6043.02,"end":6054.18,"text":"輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案子我是建議說"},{"start":6056.295,"end":6082.924,"text":"請這個法官的團體 檢察官的團體 校政署還有一些學者 還有一些被害人的家屬社會 大家再來討論一下看說到底哪一些應該列入最剛才吳宗憲委員講的一級 二級 三級我覺得這樣 為什麼特別提吳委員的一級 二級 三級這個法官那麼大的權力 這有風險"},{"start":6086.111,"end":6105.809,"text":"什麼風險呢 就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說 我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉 社會認為很可惡很可惡 判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三 尤其一開始的時候"},{"start":6112.353,"end":6117.261,"text":"還沒有其他的判例的時候 1 2 3剛開始的時候那一開始的法官 我看 腦膜在燒啦所以這個 副理事長有什麼要補充"},{"start":6123.427,"end":6146.493,"text":"委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的 務其徒刑是在事後的時候在執行的時候這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊那審查制現在就是說這個不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測沒有啦 剛剛就委員說嘛說事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛剛委員說嘛"},{"start":6153.135,"end":6162.281,"text":"所以你如果是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這些都分級還有一個制度要來決定這件事情"},{"start":6167.065,"end":6172.808,"text":"那社會就要討論那這個制度參與的機制是什麼參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會所以我是覺得這樣這個案子大家討論把這一些事情我是建議召委開一個會社會有共識法務部告訴我們這幾種的故意殺人 殺人未遂"},{"start":6196.099,"end":6212.372,"text":"而社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個上面一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把它這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定那法官的團體"},{"start":6213.464,"end":6236.589,"text":"法官應該你們有什麼協會嘛 你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去 還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識 或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們省下差不多一年的討論 社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院 立法完了之後大家說 蛤 現在改這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦 好 那我就直言到這裡 謝謝"},{"start":6239.554,"end":6257.786,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那我這部分我們再來思考一下 好 謝謝那個夫敏剛講到說那個這可不可以假釋很難預測那一樣啊 就是你們那個個案法官啊他用有沒有教化可能性不能判死刑也是都在預測啦好那我們下一位請陳培宇委員發言好 謝謝主席有請法務部長 謝謝麻煩部長"},{"start":6268.724,"end":6283.21,"text":"委員好好 部長好 謝謝主席我其實也想要先附和一下剛王玉川委員說的啦公聽會我也認為應該要辦一下主要的原因是我還記得上個禮拜我們在教文修這個AI基本法的黨團協商的時候當時的主席"},{"start":6284.691,"end":6304.529,"text":"吳宗憲委員你也有在嘛你不是主席但是你有參與這個黨團協商的討論你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情大家對AI非常非常的關心所以你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去然後就把這個法案寫好寫滿基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦然後其實也違反了我們在立法的時候書寫文字的精神"},{"start":6305.189,"end":6332.104,"text":"那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在"},{"start":6333.044,"end":6349.154,"text":"之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分呢他們民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人"},{"start":6349.674,"end":6373.103,"text":"那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿"},{"start":6374.703,"end":6393.294,"text":"我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉犯詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的命案"},{"start":6395.594,"end":6411.859,"text":"當時這個人確實就開始出去串證了新聞報導也都出來了相關的手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感還有民眾的擔心"},{"start":6412.939,"end":6440.752,"text":"當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院"},{"start":6441.252,"end":6445.63,"text":"可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見"},{"start":6446.885,"end":6472.566,"text":"謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱咪那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱咪絕對是辦不成的所以包括很多犯罪集團"},{"start":6473.367,"end":6480.825,"text":"不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪記憶體就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人"},{"start":6482.43,"end":6502.614,"text":"要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來作證或來說實話那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵犯尤其像我們像那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用串證的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話"},{"start":6505.615,"end":6525.921,"text":"那個德國 美國 法國 澳洲 國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做境界那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括了洗錢等等的還虐捅的 殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的"},{"start":6527.782,"end":6546.645,"text":"這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我們想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好"},{"start":6547.731,"end":6569.83,"text":"因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信喔在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容他說呢目前我們來看積壓目前在實務上有很多積壓的理由是因為"},{"start":6570.49,"end":6598.656,"text":"有可能會湮滅、偽造、變造證據就所謂的滅證或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證所以一個是滅證一個是串證所以就文藝上的解釋串證是指對於人證的妨害而滅證是指對於物證的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待串證跟滅證的區別"},{"start":6602.157,"end":6616.117,"text":"那个串串是人嘛对证人嘛我刚刚已经说是人那个人的证言人的证言最容易去做沟川了而且他有人情的压力甚至因为迫于一些的恐吓怎么样他不敢或者为了己身的利益"},{"start":6616.638,"end":6630.509,"text":"他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的犯罪這個串證罪這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成"},{"start":6632.31,"end":6657.393,"text":"那關於物證就是所謂的滅證的部分我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性"},{"start":6657.973,"end":6675.356,"text":"那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的串證行為羈押的替代手段像交保的這部分"},{"start":6677.377,"end":6696.926,"text":"最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才我也有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症"},{"start":6699.527,"end":6725.481,"text":"魅症如果留著 那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那怎麼積壓的我們就是譬如說科技監控還有定期報到都是要防止他脫逃"},{"start":6726.69,"end":6749.6,"text":"這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能"},{"start":6750.1,"end":6772.085,"text":"所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串陣這個部分從羈押要件拿掉"},{"start":6773.284,"end":6792.298,"text":"謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防"},{"start":6792.938,"end":6815.407,"text":"那檢察官你要舉證說他有羈押的必要性羈押的理由羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護那是非常的周延的他可以請律師有攻防有開庭另外其實他被羈押他還可以抗告"},{"start":6816.147,"end":6830.237,"text":"那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護債法律的程序是非常的周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像兆團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那政策無從伸張所以我們非常擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人"},{"start":6837.602,"end":6852.949,"text":"的保護真的是因為不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權利這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的"},{"start":6865.015,"end":6889.462,"text":"所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報"},{"start":6890.302,"end":6914.675,"text":"其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險"},{"start":6916.485,"end":6918.446,"text":"念完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察"},{"start":6932.296,"end":6953.141,"text":"除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級"},{"start":6954.401,"end":6973.477,"text":"左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在"},{"start":6975.459,"end":6991.595,"text":"提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行"},{"start":6995.278,"end":7016.51,"text":"讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見"},{"start":7018.348,"end":7046.767,"text":"謝謝委員 我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員矯正人員的這部分就是游教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒運這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒運都不得假施的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的問題都是非常的緊迫"},{"start":7047.407,"end":7075.635,"text":"那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的 監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對 那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍"},{"start":7076.846,"end":7097.486,"text":"所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來我們那個在行政已經審查已經8月10號最後一次了那即將要定案了那我們還要在會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點它是一個執行面的問題"},{"start":7098.447,"end":7120.14,"text":"它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽腳證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定"},{"start":7120.62,"end":7147.512,"text":"哪一級 這個在技術性在法官這邊是有它的一個困難有一個困難 標準是不是一致好 沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用"},{"start":7148.092,"end":7164.106,"text":"由教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能長治久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了"},{"start":7164.446,"end":7191.949,"text":"台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":7193.1,"end":7207.401,"text":"好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關就是那個宮廷會的事情就是那個宮廷會的部分我們當然是可以再思考看看有沒有這個必要性那我在5月22號的時候其實在那個"},{"start":7208.863,"end":7225.132,"text":"神里幼童的那個宮廷會的時候其實那時候已經就把它放在議程裡面就不得假釋的部分其實我們有在宮廷會裡面有討論過了那這是一個就已經有辦過一次宮廷會那有沒有需要再辦這個部分我們再思考一下我再思考一下"},{"start":7227.392,"end":7245.318,"text":"剛剛有提到就是監鎖所以後來我們最近一直在排視察其實也是為了跟不得假釋配套我們因為這是一連串的所以我們前陣子為什麼一直去監鎖就這個原因當然游玉蘭的那個對 那是一個很好的建議但其實這世界上很多國家都有不得假釋"},{"start":7248.499,"end":7255.783,"text":"謝謝 這幾個您剛的建議我就會思考一下看有沒有必要再開公認會這給您的回應 謝謝陳委員下一位我們請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我請一下法務部長麻煩部長委員好"},{"start":7274.06,"end":7290.229,"text":"部長好 部長請問一下你這個禮拜會不會寫辭職信啊有沒有準備這個我想我每天坐在整個在推動我們這個業務的一個正常推動我想這個是一個"},{"start":7292.011,"end":7295.473,"text":"你還是要堅守崗位目前要堅守崗位應該沒有這個問題因為這兩天因為委員都很關心這個問題對 我很關心當然關心我們作為在野監督者當然關心因為院長"},{"start":7308.838,"end":7323.223,"text":"說這個禮拜應該會完成整個的內閣改組那現在看起來呢可能要走的閣員都會主動寫個辭職信不想寫可能也被逼著要寫所以我才問您這句話所以應該這個禮拜你們有這個這個可能嘛"},{"start":7325.093,"end":7349.1,"text":"謝謝 我很關心好 OK那請問一下就是我們現在討論的就是我們針對虐童不得假釋的部分我不曉得法務部的態度是什麼因為在之前我們針對凌虐幼兒致死那要處以最高可以處以死刑那那個時候是並沒有行政院版本我記得當時我們在做協調的時候那時候"},{"start":7354.366,"end":7381.98,"text":"法务部还说会在一个月因为我们就是又被冷冻一个月那法务部还说会提出版本但是最后法务部并没有提出行政院版本那我想请问一下那有关于现在我们立法院很多委员都提案就是虐童致死也最高可以处无期徒刑而且不得假释这个部分法务部的态度是什么那么我们会有行政院的版本吗"},{"start":7383.468,"end":7410.803,"text":"行政院的版本因為我們其實我們那時候說法務部的版本很快就提到已經提到去年就提到行政院那行政院已經五次的審查我想快要審訊了即將審訊已經到最後的一個階段了那再就會嫌立法院那個司法院就會送到行政院來做一個審議了那委員非常關心這個內統事實上這個內統是人審公分 田裡然農這個我想我們的理念都一致的那內統當然不能假設我們是"},{"start":7411.523,"end":7440.369,"text":"我們是贊同的啊這個我們是贊同的啊那贊同會有版本嗎因為我為什麼特別講就是當時我們還特別協調然後冷凍一個月因為那時候我是覺得根本不要冷凍一個月可是因為當時你們說你們可以提出版本所以我們就等可是你們最後還是沒有提出版本而在立法院最後處理三讀通過的時候當時民進黨所有的委員"},{"start":7441.089,"end":7458.917,"text":"通通投下反對票所有民進黨的委員通通投下反對票所以我們就不懂啦在這邊講說願意支持然後願意提版本在我們立法院院會三讀通過的時候民進黨又所有的委員通通投下反對票"},{"start":7459.577,"end":7482.463,"text":"所以我們就不懂這個到底態度看起來態度就是堅決反對不然為什麼全部都投反對票還沒有開放投票所以我想請問一下您剛剛講說現在法務部已經有修法送到行政院所以基本上我們現在立法院我們幾位委員的提案我們法務部是支持的嗎"},{"start":7483.724,"end":7506.126,"text":"這部分有些部分的因為這要配合那個回應那個113年宪判八字號的一個判決那也回應到民意那這邊我跟委員報告過了我們對這些天理人審共憤這些特殊重大暴力的犯罪包括這個286 刑犯286孽童的這部分我們的立場我們是希望這部分"},{"start":7509.429,"end":7532.482,"text":"這個不適用假釋的一個規定那我想這部分行政已經到最後是不是在等甚至剛才我也有提到說是不是要在辦公室這個範圍的一個問題那我想這個286那這樣好不好因為當然我們這個會期也快要結束了那你們下會期可以送到立法院來嗎我們努力因為這個已經到最後的一個審查階段了"},{"start":7533.403,"end":7551.142,"text":"對 我真的覺得因為你不要每次都嘴巴上說同意然後最後都沒有行動而且執政黨委員的投票又變成反對所以這樣的話我們希望說能夠你們就直接在下個會期好不好能夠送進來"},{"start":7552.543,"end":7581.562,"text":"我覺得很多的法案如果大家有一致就不需要為了對立因為我們說實在我們在這個會期尤其在大罷免之前太多只是為了反對而反對好像你再也講提什麼東西我即便是對的是對的你們也要反對反對到底所以我真的覺得這個部分剛才講就是我們如何防止孽兒而且針對零孽幼兒致死的是大家都知道是零容忍所以都應該去做"},{"start":7583.624,"end":7589.348,"text":"我時間還有一點點對不起 到後面這個是我這幾天一直很想詢問的"},{"start":7592.034,"end":7621.406,"text":"最近有幾個案件其實大家覺得很有感沒有錯 他們是觸犯了相關的法則但是說實在 對一般人來講那個都是很違罪我們常常在想說你們法院也好 檢察官也好累積這麼大量案件這麼多的詐欺案要辦還有你要辦這麼多的司法這個政治的案件還有很多的案件結果我們現在出現的一些"},{"start":7621.986,"end":7634.584,"text":"一些的這個法則第一個就是說有一個女子兩年前她在淘寶去買了棉花棒她是買了20包20包一共480塊480塊"},{"start":7637.748,"end":7660.65,"text":"那他這個當然呢他是違反相關的就是這個你這個醫用型的這些不能夠進口超量那可能一般的人搞不清楚那好他違法了那時候呢也被沒收結果兩年後警方上門逮人而且把他拘留在看守所一個晚上買20包的"},{"start":7664.315,"end":7669.079,"text":"棉花棒要被拘留在看守所一個晚上然後讓他繳十萬塊錢的罰款"},{"start":7672.87,"end":7699.843,"text":"這樣的一個司法的行為其實我們覺得不解啦這樣可能任何人都可能觸法任何人都可能觸法好 另外一個案件貪污是不對的可是像這個清潔隊員他是把廢棄的家具他覺得這個家具人家覺得不要但是他在資源回收的時候他覺得這個家具是堪用的"},{"start":7700.724,"end":7704.664,"text":"他就把他呢送給了好友人他覺得很可惜"},{"start":7705.818,"end":7734.617,"text":"結果依貪污罪起訴面臨五年以上有期徒刑大家都知道一旦是用貪污罪起訴就五年以上有期徒刑所以我要講就是說身在宮門好修行我們對於貪贓枉法違反法令的犯罪行為當然要打擊保護好人但是我講的這兩個例子我真的不覺得他們是壞人"},{"start":7736.038,"end":7754.014,"text":"他們有 就是你買個棉花棒然後你要被到看守所還要住一晚很多人都很害怕你知道嗎即便是這種一般人聽到警方煞門就嚇死了然後現在讓他到看守所去然後罰20萬 對不起 罰10萬塊那這個有關於"},{"start":7758.863,"end":7785.673,"text":"貪污為罪貪污在過去有好幾個案例所以我希望說我們法務部這邊是不是也可以針對這種為罪是不是他一定要處以這麼重的刑罰好像這個清潔隊員我覺得很多人都非常同情啊這個叫貪污那貪污更重的逍遙法外的更多呀"},{"start":7787.332,"end":7799.497,"text":"所以是不是部長既然我剛才一開始就問你你會不會寫辭職信你說你會堅守崗位好 那我也希望人在公門好修行"},{"start":7800.902,"end":7815.564,"text":"老講法務部這一年多來你的施政的這個其實是非常偏頗的啦你做了很多的司法的案件但是我覺得我們是不是也能夠苦民所苦我剛才講的這個兩個例子"},{"start":7817.627,"end":7836.022,"text":"能不能在我們在法令上能做一些調整跟修正不要再出現像這樣子的一個小老百姓他也不懂他其實他也他那時候做的時候他也不曉得自己是犯罪但是呢卻要受到這樣的待遇部長可不可以就是我們"},{"start":7837.403,"end":7852.931,"text":"尤其在司法的部分能夠讓我們真的是要保護好人而不是去懲戒這些這種違罪就不要讓他有面臨這麼重的相關的罰則好不好"},{"start":7854.172,"end":7879.23,"text":"好 謝謝委員那委員關心的就是那個清潔隊員這一種的的確是清清法重那這部分我們保護部都很重視這個問題事實上我們已經把修正草案送給行政院審查那這部分我跟委員報告這個像這個小貪污這部分那貪污自衛條例12條第一項有修正減輕或免除其刑那減輕的話還得減到三分之二"},{"start":7879.91,"end":7908.36,"text":"那我想這比較合乎到我們一個實際上的一個甚至可以免除疾險就不用管了那我想這個給法定人員你是修法嗎是修法好吧你可以把那個修法相關的那個你們的資料提供給我們辦公室一份好不好我覺得因為最近很多人跟我反映這個我自己也心有所感另外那個淘寶那個那是屬於衛福部的全職我知道我沒辦法去處理這個區塊"},{"start":7909.56,"end":7925.866,"text":"好好好那這個我們會去跟衛福部但是這個衛福部這當然是要罰啦他這個他是有用但是兩年之後又跑過去還要給人家關一個晚上我覺得真的非常離譜啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請省發會委員發言待會在翁曉琳委員詢答結束後休息五分鐘"},{"start":7948.972,"end":7969.834,"text":"主席 我想今天我們在討論有關於刑法修正草案的這些相關的修訂有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論"},{"start":7971.417,"end":7995.293,"text":"那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論"},{"start":7997.614,"end":8025.482,"text":"他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜"},{"start":8027.603,"end":8044.033,"text":"記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些"},{"start":8045.094,"end":8061.095,"text":"不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法"},{"start":8061.616,"end":8084.967,"text":"那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望說在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個"},{"start":8089.997,"end":8101.18,"text":"有關我就是因為我今天手頭上版本我看到就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個無期徒刑分析制的這個大概是第33條這個組刑之種類還有這個第51條數字類併罰的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上刑的這個併刑執行大概就這4條的修正"},{"start":8115.243,"end":8135.4,"text":"我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度 一再斟酌 傾聽各方意見等等這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單 你們大概就提了兩個"},{"start":8137.143,"end":8150.209,"text":"一個就是說你們認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面它沒有相關適用要件的這個"},{"start":8152.91,"end":8174.109,"text":"沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級"},{"start":8179.754,"end":8204.377,"text":"我在今天的這四條的修正裡面 我覺得看不到啦 我看不到那如果是由法官來 或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的 最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候 他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑 還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話"},{"start":8205.638,"end":8224.621,"text":"那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對這個今天的這個就只修這四條法來增訂這個這個這個不紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分"},{"start":8225.402,"end":8239.892,"text":"在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年"},{"start":8240.652,"end":8247.317,"text":"平均假釋年數是17.917.9年我看趙偉的簡報我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個無期徒刑的受刑人他們平均的假釋的年限是17.9因為他這只到111年我看到的"},{"start":8262.378,"end":8267.606,"text":"新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900應該是994人對不對 部長"},{"start":8273.309,"end":8282.615,"text":"994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年也就是說"},{"start":8302.788,"end":8329.421,"text":"這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人"},{"start":8331.496,"end":8338.584,"text":"現在是整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人 您假釋"},{"start":8339.775,"end":8360.263,"text":"沒有 因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新舊法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在"},{"start":8361.383,"end":8368.867,"text":"裡面有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過"},{"start":8375.136,"end":8391.718,"text":"我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法"},{"start":8392.659,"end":8419.9,"text":"這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡也跟趙偉來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的這幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假設"},{"start":8421.741,"end":8447.554,"text":"你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把它假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是"},{"start":8448.414,"end":8475,"text":"只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的"},{"start":8475.72,"end":8495.393,"text":"的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法了我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見"},{"start":8496.954,"end":8514.665,"text":"那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個"},{"start":8519.566,"end":8534.742,"text":"這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題"},{"start":8540.049,"end":8565.119,"text":"另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個"},{"start":8568.013,"end":8585.541,"text":"所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清 再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的"},{"start":8588.962,"end":8600.733,"text":"倒數第二天的委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界 實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁"},{"start":8606.899,"end":8634.024,"text":"這樣子的制度它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些對我都沒有意義了我所有遵守這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難"},{"start":8634.984,"end":8653.121,"text":"這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種一期無期徒刑這些重申監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛"},{"start":8654.717,"end":8682.179,"text":"反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋"},{"start":8683.84,"end":8711.506,"text":"衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上"},{"start":8713.546,"end":8731.695,"text":"謝謝 那再跟沈委員報告有關這個要不要再加開公定會這個我會再思考一下看怎麼樣做比較好因為這個議題是因為拋出來已經一年了所以我才想說我們還是要有進度這對國家才有交代"},{"start":8732.635,"end":8753.324,"text":"另外因為還有一個就是中深部的假釋其實在很多國家都有很多國家有這個制度那當然您所提到的那個有啦就是進去會不會覺得遙遙無期是是是是是好所以說這部分我會再思考一下看有沒有必要再加開公定會凝聚各界的意見好謝謝那接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":8760.768,"end":8764.595,"text":"謝謝主席召委 楊卿瑩發言邀請部長發布 麻煩部長委員好"},{"start":8770.069,"end":8792.321,"text":"部長好 我們針對於在2017年到2022年間全國至少有47名的兒少因為嚴重的虐待致死我們又反推往前的10年 更有221名的兒少遭虐死亡"},{"start":8792.961,"end":8799.57,"text":"那其中來自父母方或者是來自照顧方的暴力行為那現在大家重視這個問題所以在針對於刑法286條以加重處罰"},{"start":8806.448,"end":8834.021,"text":"但是如果說施虐者仍舊可以適用這個假釋那我們認為會使整個刑法的嚇阻作用它是大打這個折扣所以甚至會讓社會大眾再度的暴露到這個加害者的一個威脅當中所以為了落實整個司法的正義跟保護兒少的一個安全本期希望能夠明定"},{"start":8835.262,"end":8855.605,"text":"虐童犯罪者不得在這樣的條件之下不得適用假釋所以本席今天也提出了一個修正動議也就是在我們刑法第77條裡頭增訂虐童罪者不得不得假釋所以要請教要請教部長您的看法"},{"start":8857.694,"end":8884.367,"text":"這個內統的確是很惡劣的那那個內統致死的這種案例就是286的這個問題我想這些天理南榮這些的天理南榮 林榮仁林榮仁的案件我們都是就是整個不得假釋的立場我們都是非常尊重委員的一個寶貴意見那我想不是只有286啦所以我們提出的那個你就本席所提出的去行政院"},{"start":8885.307,"end":8903.506,"text":"應該是支持 這是不得假釋的非常感謝你行政院的版本我們是說故意殺人或殺人為罪只要判無期徒刑或者是10年以上有期徒刑的這部分我們都是不適用假釋的希望適用在不得的部分"},{"start":8905.808,"end":8927.241,"text":"所以我要謝謝你因為本席認為在假釋的制度它不應該淪為這一個制度尤其在286條虐童致死的這個部分那麼不得是這個制度的一個破口我也要謝謝部長你的支持我也希望待會討論的時候能夠得到各位同仁大家的支持接下來本席要邀請衛福部張師長"},{"start":8936.09,"end":8953.637,"text":"市長 等一下請教因為本期在衛福委員會提過幾次那終於因為我們看到近年醫師涉及性侵的這個性平案件那衛福部本來就應當要設立狼獅的查詢平台"},{"start":8954.757,"end":8973.204,"text":"一直沒有上線我們一直討論終於達成共識而且謝謝你們也已經正式的這個平台已經上線你首波你公布了六個醫師一個放射師但是現在到目前為止你所公布的這七位有三個醫師仍舊在職業本席也問過"},{"start":8978.146,"end":8998.059,"text":"那你們告訴我告訴本席說你們只有是資訊揭露不是如此喔我想聽聽你的意見喔是謝謝委員關心這個議題雖然這個業務不在保護司的業務但是我想就過去今天妳代表那個衛福部來"},{"start":8999,"end":9004.686,"text":"過去在整個影響職業影響他的職業的相關規定裡面特別涉及性侵害或者是性議題這樣的一個侵犯人權的立法裡頭目前看起來就是在校園就是教室這一塊不適任人員有法律規定你非常詳細的回答"},{"start":9021.923,"end":9043.895,"text":"校園的部分他是針對校園性平他的一個處理程序他必須一旦發生他必須在24小時去提報如果這個人是這個教師的話學校必須要提報上來24小時之內要提報提報出去他必須暫時的停止"},{"start":9044.875,"end":9048.258,"text":"他的職務接受調查這是在校園裡頭這是因為這個老師跟學生的關係是非常緊密但是醫生跟醫病關係要不要等同師生關係我覺得這個在到現在問不你們的回答還是不盡本質的不清不楚"},{"start":9063.829,"end":9065.29,"text":"在我們醫師法第25條裡頭非常清楚的明定違反醫學倫理或業務不正當行為可一復懲戒但是到目前為止"},{"start":9079.841,"end":9086.549,"text":"你們還是只停滯當然有精英小部你已經上線了你在上線所公布的這七個裡頭還有三位現在還在執業所以讓這些患者他非常的緊張那怎麼辦 要不要去討論"},{"start":9097.842,"end":9100.484,"text":"已經有校園性平的一個處理程序已經非常的清楚在這裡那麼依照醫師法你們也必須也得去提出這個懲戒來做討論 懲案那到現在都不做那你光一個上限要幹嘛"},{"start":9117.819,"end":9139.174,"text":"你觀光業上線要做什麼你讓患者還是很緊張啊你公佈一個他竟然還在執業啊那是怎麼辦呢前幾天全國醫師公會的連署上面有特別提到這一切要依法行政也就是說就這個依法請你帶回去你到底要修醫師法你到底要修醫師懲戒"},{"start":9142.663,"end":9153.212,"text":"程序的法律還是怎麼如此我希望你們去研討出來我們跨出了一大步一定要有成效而不是讓這些人逍遙法外啊讓這些患者還是很緊張啊這不是我們政府應該做的嘛"},{"start":9159.099,"end":9163.843,"text":"我們政府應該 既然妳說了前幾天都已經提出 妳必須要有法那妳們應該要去研討啊 要去提出啊妳的事是會提出是不是我想這個部裡頭應該相關的業務單位應該會審慎的來處理要盡快提出來幫助 妳們上線也才有才有真的成效 好不好謝謝 請帶回去 研討出來請給本席 謝謝"},{"start":9187.654,"end":9207.621,"text":"好 謝謝下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言主席好 在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長"},{"start":9213.366,"end":9233.392,"text":"委員好市部長您好我想您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋"},{"start":9234.912,"end":9261.418,"text":"而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告"},{"start":9262.378,"end":9284.881,"text":"先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是"},{"start":9285.802,"end":9308.003,"text":"那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的義職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好 這邊我想提醒部長"},{"start":9310.265,"end":9329.766,"text":"就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的"},{"start":9331.388,"end":9358.107,"text":"這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊"},{"start":9359.833,"end":9374.339,"text":"各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題"},{"start":9380.722,"end":9398.46,"text":"這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多包括游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得假釋A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修的能夠有回復民意的要求"},{"start":9398.92,"end":9401.363,"text":"對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時"},{"start":9420.244,"end":9439.494,"text":"在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑"},{"start":9440.014,"end":9456.555,"text":"目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友"},{"start":9459.558,"end":9474.209,"text":"連署說主張要徵修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不"},{"start":9475.41,"end":9492.497,"text":"符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋"},{"start":9493.277,"end":9519.333,"text":"然后所以这时候又开始转变就说其实可以似乎是可以赞成不得假设的修法可是呢你们既然赞成了不得假设修法那中间呢又有些不同差别一开始也是想说可能可以针对无期徒刑进行成绩化的区别然后呢到去年的这个又后来又到了11月又说是可以采取什么特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假设的方向推动修法"},{"start":9519.753,"end":9532.815,"text":"所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在防務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎"},{"start":9533.983,"end":9551.89,"text":"三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂"},{"start":9552.45,"end":9574.451,"text":"判5起或10例以上尤其是所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大暴力犯罪不能假釋嗎另外大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們主要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦 就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個"},{"start":9575.331,"end":9590.256,"text":"中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動不得假釋的修法還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋"},{"start":9590.956,"end":9616.885,"text":"的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何然後待會也請司法院的王副秘書長也來表示一下你們的意見"},{"start":9618.192,"end":9636.866,"text":"我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是"},{"start":9637.586,"end":9651.717,"text":"施加身體或心理的一個痛苦而且這個是對反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪好 謝謝部長您的說明請問王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場"},{"start":9657.033,"end":9678.704,"text":"謝謝委員因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關不是司法院我們尊重組織機關的意見但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要思考的就是說公正公約第7條還有歐洲人權公約第3條它都有禁止酷刑處分的規定所以說如果說"},{"start":9679.804,"end":9702.361,"text":"完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見"},{"start":9703.481,"end":9717.446,"text":"我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於就是不得假釋的部分認為是有為之的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長 鄭部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋"},{"start":9723.388,"end":9747.222,"text":"其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見"},{"start":9750.697,"end":9762.516,"text":"定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲"},{"start":9768.447,"end":9788.339,"text":"包委員 這個是不是違憲這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個主責力就是我們不是我們主責我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好 那請"},{"start":9793.018,"end":9815.201,"text":"部長 如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋 不行不行 不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度 日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒"},{"start":9815.862,"end":9832.708,"text":"在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋"},{"start":9834.008,"end":9850.607,"text":"是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有"},{"start":9851.348,"end":9870.487,"text":"立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上 謝謝"},{"start":9874.013,"end":9894.687,"text":"好 謝謝因為吳委員有希望說吳委員講完之後再休息所以我們更改一下宣告吳委員質詢完畢之後我們再那個強哥請問一下吳委員說他希望能夠接著質詢不休息沒問題那強哥你要你問完再休息還是你要接著問"},{"start":9895.956,"end":9908.581,"text":"接著 好 那是不是說因為剩沒有幾位那我們是不是等整個質詢完畢之後我們再休息 好 謝謝那接下來請吳世堯委員謝謝主席 有請部長麻煩部長委員好"},{"start":9915.562,"end":9944.006,"text":"部長大家辛苦了我想司法法治委員會從這一屆期開始到今天還有明天恐怕是就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末的最後兩次的開會那我還是要表達一下立場我還是很遺憾一再有委員為個案在質詢台上來為難您我再一次呼籲我們在司法法治委員會我們要就制度面"},{"start":9944.626,"end":9960.355,"text":"而不要講個別的案件尊重司法的獨立辦案政治力不要干預司法我再一次強調即便這已經說了N遍還是要表達本席當然也是民進黨團的立場"},{"start":9962.168,"end":9987.073,"text":"那今天的主題進入之前我先來拋出這個疑問我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題民眾黨的提案勾串共犯或證人要免羈押的這個事情這個修法呢涉及為一人修法為個案開脫大開法制的倒車甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇"},{"start":9988.453,"end":10016.454,"text":"所以檢察界、檢察官、律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對未個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁"},{"start":10018.058,"end":10045.645,"text":"世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁"},{"start":10046.545,"end":10060.245,"text":"但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對"},{"start":10062.179,"end":10086.312,"text":"我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量"},{"start":10088.24,"end":10109.028,"text":"我告訴你 部長 我很擔心我們這一年半來 都是這樣下個會席 他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推 是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外 你們能做什麼 部長"},{"start":10110.967,"end":10137.566,"text":"後患無窮以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到即便通過了打詐四法但是來補了這一槍把詐騙集團全部都可以逃都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長我不是要為難您"},{"start":10139.383,"end":10157.098,"text":"我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他We can't do more是這樣嗎Can we do more行政部門可以多做什麼 部長"},{"start":10158.631,"end":10186.348,"text":"委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長"},{"start":10187.429,"end":10208.279,"text":"我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過"},{"start":10212.898,"end":10229.113,"text":"不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們"},{"start":10231.077,"end":10260.257,"text":"讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整"},{"start":10261.057,"end":10288.64,"text":"我相信我們的召委 出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通 都可以對話而不是只有反對 好嗎這是我的期許 下面終身監禁的制度 我支持但是草率倉促的修法 我反對我的主張 要有院版 要有公聽會也要有配套 才能上路 下一頁"},{"start":10290.11,"end":10302.666,"text":"這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核憲之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧"},{"start":10303.672,"end":10325.045,"text":"我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳東雄委員所提的這個議案"},{"start":10327.403,"end":10339.682,"text":"的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑"},{"start":10341.658,"end":10362.207,"text":"這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度你們有院版嘛對不對有布版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎布版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法還有監獄刑刑法監獄刑刑法也有"},{"start":10363.047,"end":10386.395,"text":"然后呢法院组织法跟刑事诉讼法有没有要一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未来我也在这里对于我们的召委还有其他司法委员会的成员来呼吁整个制度要配套是四个法可能都要一起来思考而不要只单从某一步法就为快而快下一页"},{"start":10387.855,"end":10406.729,"text":"這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度"},{"start":10407.369,"end":10426.919,"text":"的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度yes yes yes"},{"start":10427.919,"end":10451.19,"text":"但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快 為修而修NO NO NO要正院版你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院 院還要再會嫌司法院"},{"start":10452.506,"end":10477.171,"text":"我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎?對不對?同意第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比評一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit"},{"start":10478.051,"end":10502.616,"text":"這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎"},{"start":10504.336,"end":10528.725,"text":"這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好 最後兩頁 下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁"},{"start":10529.725,"end":10556.222,"text":"所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個裁判因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個那個"},{"start":10558.463,"end":10580.449,"text":"所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁"},{"start":10581.289,"end":10594.569,"text":"法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理"},{"start":10595.652,"end":10614.951,"text":"受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yes yes yes但是草率仓促的修法"},{"start":10615.692,"end":10643.437,"text":"沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路"},{"start":10644.184,"end":10663.834,"text":"只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛"},{"start":10665.509,"end":10689.496,"text":"我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝那我們下一位請羅委員"},{"start":10701.195,"end":10730.049,"text":"有請部長麻煩部長委員好部長在正式開始質詢之前我想先講一個台電的鬼故事給你聽你知道我們台電長年以來一直都是我們國家收入的金雞母國營事業金雞母你知道到哪一年它開始賠錢的你知道嗎這個我不清楚當然不清楚"},{"start":10730.782,"end":10743.113,"text":"他是在2006年開始賠錢的陳水扁執政民進黨第一次執政2006年開始賠錢賠了非常巨額的所謂的虧損最後馬政府上來以後那也被逼的調漲電價"},{"start":10745.083,"end":10757.227,"text":"但是你知道這個台電這個金積母是到哪一年又從所謂的大錢坑又變回金積母呢你知道嗎我不清楚對 你一定不知道是2014年就馬總統任內把它從賠錢貨又變回金積母"},{"start":10762.348,"end":10785.665,"text":"你知道到馬總統卸任的時候交了多少的盈餘變成電價穩定基金交給蔡英文政府你知道嗎你一定不知道 828億的電價穩定基金可是民進黨執政到現在9年了你知道台電撥補了多少錢嗎這個我不清楚你也不知道 3000億"},{"start":10788.342,"end":10798.01,"text":"然後你知道台電撥補了3000億之後現在虧損多少嗎你也不知道對不對超過4500億給他828億用光光然後再用納稅錢補3000億馬政府說一毛錢都沒補"},{"start":10806.195,"end":10834.908,"text":"那再加上還賠了4500億以上加起來的坑這個大錢坑就是8000億好 接下來我就要問你知道的事了請問你知道8000億的大錢坑是哪一個老鼠坑掉的你是不是知道這我不清楚你不知道啊你不知道該打屁股了因為這個不是我全管的我告訴你 你不知道該打屁股為什麼 我講原因給你聽我講原因給你聽就是幣安吞掉的啦我現在直接跟你講"},{"start":10836.28,"end":10863.437,"text":"就是綠能的小老鼠跟大老鼠一起吞掉的啦現在要抓到一個綠能小老鼠啦是誰你總知道吧不會告訴我不知道吧有一個綠電小老鼠被抓到了啊是誰那個鄭姓的嫌犯嘛對啊 鄭義林啊喬宮殿啊好偉大啊收賄貪污啊難怪台電一直虧錢全部去養這種綠能老鼠"},{"start":10865.41,"end":10892.165,"text":"這已經是綠能產業結構性的貪腐 抱歉啦我覺得我看到我們法務部我們的檢調好像對於這八千億的老鼠坑實質上要拖三拖四不會啦 他那個跟我們報告其實像某核電廠的某位的廠長我再問你啦沒關係 我再問你啦這位小老鼠 我現在稱之小老鼠"},{"start":10893.308,"end":10910.937,"text":"他不到30歲就擔任行政院能源檢探辦公室主任外界稱他是小英男孩背景深厚喬供電然後呢 貪污收賄坐擁聚產沒有關係 我想請問法務部"},{"start":10913.782,"end":10932.92,"text":"針對這個案子有沒有向上溯源擴大偵辦我問題問完你再回答一個小英男孩就有辦法做到這件事有沒有其他政府人士黨政人士涉入部長回答之前我先幫你回答你會說個案不評論你會說偵查不公開對不對我猜中了沒"},{"start":10934.392,"end":10962.945,"text":"我想有證據就一定向上溯源嘛好 第三句證據到哪辦到哪對啊 那個現在那個不是有那個今天這個新聞就出來了包括那個證訊嫌犯以及那個某建設公司的副職都已經進鑑了嘛就進鑑了 那進鑑就羈押進鑑這個就彰顯了我們就是要向上溯源沒關係啦 我要告訴你啦我想這個外界看你們檢察官在辦事嘛"},{"start":10964.245,"end":10977.607,"text":"今天王俊麗有沒有施壓就罷免期間不要動罷免結果再動有沒有這個不要去做一個採測你可以做一個採測你幫王俊麗背書你不要去做採測我不用採測你幫她背書你就說絕對沒有"},{"start":10978.923,"end":11002.991,"text":"當然 是不是 這個怎麼可能你就直接講 絕對沒有嘛這個不要去揣測說什麼就政治上的一個考量請問 這個案件 到底他在裡面 運人小老鼠偷吃台電 偷吃了多少年 多久他偷吃多久 你告訴大家 總知道吧這個案件我不清楚你看嘛 又來了 個案不清楚 偵查不公開你只有一個情況之下 你們的偵查會公開啦"},{"start":11004.192,"end":11016.851,"text":"辦柯文哲 辦黃玉璟的偵查就一定公開啦報紙就報滿滿啦遇到今天民進黨的綠能弊案就偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據辦到哪裡你就這三句話就結束"},{"start":11018.246,"end":11044.576,"text":"說真的整個執行 你三句話 你在那邊可以結束啊來 我要告訴你有沒有其他政府人士 黨政人士涉入 有沒有個案不評論 偵查不公開這個要看那個案件 得一個證據 得一個搜集權證據到哪 辦到哪 結束我問你 你也回答了 來那 鄭姓嫌犯被搜索時 竟然對調查人員嗆聲啊你知道我背後是誰嗎我想請問你知道他背後是誰嗎"},{"start":11046.465,"end":11074.37,"text":"你知道他背後是誰嗎背後就是民進黨背後就是權貴行政院能源檢探辦公室是不是政府職務是不是30歲不到就可以去當行政院能源檢探辦公室主任背景深厚啊權貴啊綠油油啊黨政關係好啊"},{"start":11076.107,"end":11093.481,"text":"沒有上線天花板嘛 該辦就辦嘛 對不對誤反誤中嘛 有證據就辦嘛非常好 你終於講一句我認同的話有證據就辦啦 這部分黨派啊就有證據向上辦啦來沒關係 我告訴你有一個人期待你向上辦你知道是誰嗎有一個人期待你向上辦是誰嗎 你知道嗎有這個問題嗎郭志輝啊郭志輝講了啊為什麼一直講綠能小老鼠"},{"start":11104.622,"end":11130.703,"text":"郭志輝更假於綠能大老鼠啊 更大尾在後面啊郭志輝什麼時候約談 個案不評論 偵查不公開有證據到哪 辦到哪來了嘛 我懂啊我懂啊 我懂啊我這一年多跟部長你相處 我怎麼會不瞭解你你看我都幫你回答 我對你多體貼我看連吳宗憲主席都可以幫你回答了我要不要點他起來幫你回答"},{"start":11132.317,"end":11160.92,"text":"綠能大老鼠請教主席會議詢問綠能大老鼠是這樣你覺得我們的部長他的回答就是三句話就結束啊檢察官他就這樣三句話結束啊好啦沒事主席就拿你做示範啦因為他也都面對你這樣的回答嘛每一個都面對你這樣回答三句話金句結束我都常常在講今天我們的法務部長你直接在背後貼一個背板"},{"start":11162.216,"end":11190.418,"text":"然後呢 每個委員上來質詢你就是偵查不公開 個案不評論有證據到哪辦到哪 三句然後每個委員問完你就說 三句你認選結束了嘛 質詢就很好過啊那我就要問啦郭志威說還有更大委 那個綠能大老鼠請問檢察官該不該辦 該不該約談你也是檢察系統出身的人嘛他都已經跟講更大委了 要不要辦嘛"},{"start":11192.211,"end":11217.916,"text":"我不問個案喔這個我就要會議詢問沒辦法抱歉因為我沒幹過檢察官我不知道也許我這個才疏學淺這個知識短陋當今天綠能小老鼠已經是被抓到偷吃綠能偷吃台電挖台電的錢造成台電的虧損"},{"start":11219.639,"end":11236.227,"text":"那想請問郭志輝經濟部長誒說還有更大尾的一個正常的檢察官會不會辦他起碼約談他會不會約談他我不知道檢察官失誤檢察官是可以主動簡報分案分案之後當然是可以傳訊因為可以把他當作證人的身份傳喚"},{"start":11237.407,"end":11260.809,"text":"對啊 謝謝 你看回答得多好我沒有教你指導個案我要問你是原則嘛你看看主席原則性講得多好檢報分案就可以了啊你跟我這樣回答我也滿意啊你要等到主席講完以後才要跟進也不錯啦主席指導你我覺得你講得也蠻好的啊謝謝主席指導啊大家一起給他掌聲鼓勵鼓勵啊我告訴你"},{"start":11263.703,"end":11283.688,"text":"八千億的坑哪裡來的啊八千億的坑就是今天法務部檢查系統你們怠惰造成的啦今天你好好抓綠人小老鼠綠人大老鼠你積極主動一點阿現在不抓了嗎阿你抓一隻小老鼠更大尾的你告現在給我吱吱嗚嗚那抓一個小老鼠九年抓一隻小老鼠很驕傲啊"},{"start":11284.708,"end":11301.697,"text":"很驕傲啊我知道啊 9年很困難啊柯文哲跟黃綠景如就不困難啊還有文昭文書一千萬交保 超級不困難啊完全沒有違和感啊國民黨的黨工 被你們抓200多個約談對不對 起訴30個人 也不困難啊只有遇到藍的困難啦遇到綠的不困難啦 我還不懂"},{"start":11311.933,"end":11338.2,"text":"最後我要跟我們要尊重檢察官的辦案的一個計劃嘛謝謝你啦 謝謝你啦遇到綠的案子就尊重檢察官辦案遇到藍的案子基本上就努力用力的死命的往死裡打死裡辦啦我在這邊跟部長直接講一件事情我知道在這個任內你的任內 民進黨任內是無望啦是無望啦講什麼都叫狗吠火車啦"},{"start":11339.724,"end":11359.202,"text":"但是我今天鄭重跟你保證我會開始推動政治迫害調查委員會我今天就要檢視半藍不半綠然後用偵查公開不正手段來去迫害在野黨迫害政治迫害在野黨這些不屑的辦案人員你當然這樣講"},{"start":11363.526,"end":11389.619,"text":"這句話交給人民公判啦交給人民公判啦遇到今天民進黨的案子到底我們檢察官辦的情形力度如何我不跟你辯論因為我知道反正你就那三句話結束你叫三具部長啦但是我要跟你講什麼人民看得清清楚楚嘛你有看過一個偽造文書還是一千萬交保的你看過嗎"},{"start":11391.377,"end":11407.862,"text":"我今天看你看看今天你們對在野黨的方式啊你知道十分之一拿來對付民進黨的貪賭弊案台電八千億的坑就可能補得起來我告訴你沒有關係我說過我們不抱任何期待我在這邊就宣誓啊"},{"start":11409.386,"end":11433.857,"text":"就是要 民進黨都可以成立什麼轉型正義委員會 不當廠產的委員會一樣啊 重版執政來成立政治迫害委員會啊我這邊也要拜託 我告訴各位檢察官很多非常正直的啊我也不是沒有遇到檢察官跟我complain說這幾年人家水生活 正直檢察官水生活的所在多有"},{"start":11434.98,"end":11460.979,"text":"今天我做這件事情是為了政治檢察官因為你如果沒有辦法去約束去讓這些為了求官去向所謂的執政者表態的打手告訴他們你今天所有的清算鬥爭的手法你要付出代價的話我告訴你政治永遠無法清明所以這是我很簡單的一個結論我最後還是要講我在這邊跟你公開推薦一個人"},{"start":11462.435,"end":11483.337,"text":"王俊麗一定要保他 重用他 為什麼育人小老鼠等到罷免案之後再辦 非常好但是羅志強你等不及啊7月30日發一個莫名其妙的公文要查我公車廣告的資金 奇怪啦不然你總有法律常識吧"},{"start":11485.87,"end":11505.83,"text":"競選當天有沒有所謂的宣傳罷免或選舉那是行政罰款吧 沒錯吧是不是啊 沒錯吧 是啦那我想請問你啊 我很抱歉啊那請問7月31號這麼火速火急啊我謝謝王俊麗的積極認識啦 謝謝你 以上"},{"start":11510.851,"end":11535.571,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員好 所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 請大家結束委員執行時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關進出送交個別委員及本會那我們依照先前宣告 我們先休息五分鐘休息五分鐘之後我們進行討論事項"},{"start":12081.67,"end":12104.721,"text":"我們繼續開會我們進行討論事項由於第一案有多位委員建議要開公聽會提取各界的意見所以所以我這邊針對討論事項第一案我想我們就另定期繼續審查那第二個我們現在繼續進行討論事項的第二案我們先宣讀提案條約一分鐘"},{"start":12106.983,"end":12124.165,"text":"請參閱條文對照表討論事項第二案刑事訴訟法委員傅坤祺等提案第71條第一項及第二項同線型條文新增第三項被告為外籍配偶外籍人士時前項之記載事項應加註該國文字或英文翻譯"},{"start":12125.006,"end":12148.963,"text":"第四項及第五項同線型條文第三項及第四項委員郭育晴等提案第七十一條第一項及第二項同線型條文增訂第三項被告為外國籍人士包括外籍學生工作者或配偶時前項所列應記載事項應付該國語言或英文之翻譯第四項及第五項分別同線型條文的第三項及第四項"},{"start":12149.924,"end":12166.561,"text":"委員副坤吉等提案第175條第一項及第二項同性情條文新增第三項證人為外籍配偶外籍人士時前項之記載事項應加註該國文字或英文翻譯第四項及第五項分別同性情條文第三項及第四項"},{"start":12167.342,"end":12185.28,"text":"委員郭育晴等提案第175條第一項至第三項同線型條文新增第四項證人為外國籍人士包括外籍學生工作者或配偶時前項所列應記載事項應付該國語言或英文之翻譯第五項同線型條文第四項宣讀完畢"},{"start":12189.359,"end":12207.054,"text":"好 第二案的條文宣讀完畢我們先處理會議時間 中午不休息上午會議持續進行好 我們現在進行討論第二案繼續併案審查委員傅坤吉等25人委員郭育群等18人分別凝聚刑事訴訟法71條第175條條文修正草案"},{"start":12210.137,"end":12229.622,"text":"那本案經過114年8月14日本會期本會第24次會議報告及詢答完畢決議另定期繼續審查 原於今日繼續審查請問在場委員是否要先進行大體討論或直接進入主條審查主條 直接進入主條 謝謝"},{"start":12232.108,"end":12250.314,"text":"好那我們併案審查刑事訴訟法71條第175條條文修正草案我們現在審查排序1條4是第71條有委員傅坤祺等25人提案及郭育琴等18人提案請問各位委員有意見要提出那黃委員先 黃委員"},{"start":12252.293,"end":12277.441,"text":"第一個這個針對有關於外籍人士刑事基本權和保障立法上面的內容我是贊成第二個兩個版本相互比較方向跟內容一致但是在法條的用語上面我基本上是建議用外籍人士那個外國籍人士在法律的程式沒有人用這種法律用語我是不曉得哪裡蹦出來什麼外國籍人士"},{"start":12278.481,"end":12302.226,"text":"不要在刑事訴訟法裡面去創設現行法律所沒有使用的法律概念也只有在兩個辦法裡面行政規則的層次有出現過外國籍人士這五個之過那你如果說在法律的層次上面像我們發展觀光條例基本上面在紫色的就全部都是用外籍人士不用外國籍人士這種法律概念第二個事情是"},{"start":12303.146,"end":12321.225,"text":"那如果是用外籍人士的話那個傅坤祺委員等人的提案我建議把外籍配偶是不是就刪除因為外籍配偶他基本上就在外籍人士的射程範圍當中沒有必要另外再把他並列要不然可能在解釋上面置之欲分"},{"start":12321.986,"end":12338.145,"text":"所以我是建議是不是就按照傅坤祺委員等25人提案被告為外籍人士時前項記載應加註該國文字或英文翻譯那175條的部分也使用相同的法律用於以上好 謝謝 那沈委員"},{"start":12340.615,"end":12360.532,"text":"好這個基本上就文字的部分我也是贊成黃委員剛剛所講的因為這個這個外籍配偶外籍人士這樣子並列那後面這個郭委員的提案裡面甚至外籍學生工作者這個都在列舉我認為是沒有必要就是就是"},{"start":12361.633,"end":12385.001,"text":"只是這一條就應該就就就規範外籍人士就好了不過在執行上面我還是要想請法務部這邊來表示意見司法院這邊來表示意見就是說因為這個這個修法之後他會牽涉到未來這個這個你可能在"},{"start":12386.195,"end":12392.263,"text":"包括手勢尤其是手勢傳喚對於這個被告或嫌疑人他的"},{"start":12394.273,"end":12417.788,"text":"國籍不明的狀況在一開始會很清楚例如說看起來是本國人結果他是外籍人士結果會造成未來的這個程序不完備因為你沒有減負他們一開始可能並不理解並不理解說這個被傳換者或者是被告他究竟他是否具有外國籍甚至他的國籍也不明"},{"start":12419.449,"end":12438.468,"text":"至於在執行的問題上面我這邊修法文字裡面是指應加注該國文字或英文翻譯我覺得這個在執行上面的困難度應該就會降低一些因為它二則一要嘛就是該國文字要嘛就是英文翻譯你如果說一定要強制"},{"start":12439.589,"end":12468.804,"text":"規定要加速該國文字那可能我不曉得他是泰國人還是馬來西亞人或者是什麼其他小漁種的國家我們這上面就有困難但他如果說是二則一英文翻譯或該國文字我認為在執行上面你們現在會有什麼樣的困難是不是先請因為這個牽涉到法務部跟司法院一個是有關證人的傳喚一個是有關犯罪嫌疑人的傳喚是不是先請司法院先表示意見好不好"},{"start":12470.287,"end":12496.428,"text":"等一下請法務部講一下好謝謝主席跟委員那個首先那個司法院呢那個是支持外籍人士權利的那個保障就是他們那個司法禁用權確實要特別那個保障這個我們完全支持那但是我們並不建議入法那基於兩個理由第一個就是說其實我們現在目前那個實務上我們對於那個傳票跟通知法院的傳票通知在外籍人士"},{"start":12498.309,"end":12520.183,"text":"還有那個宋達正書都有英文跟日文版本那在高院層級還有那個越南語的那個版本所以我們實務上現在目前其實都已經在進行在那個在就是如此在做了在執行那但是呢就是說那個第二點就是說會有一些那個特殊的情形就是說"},{"start":12520.723,"end":12541.469,"text":"他一旦就是說沒有去加注入法之後以後入法之後在特殊情形一旦沒有做的話那他就會造成就是那個傳喚不合法就是後面的所有的這些效力就是都沒了那譬如說有時候檢察官起訴的時候他這時候是沒有去加注"},{"start":12542.489,"end":12560.702,"text":"他的身份的所以就是說法院並不知道他是外籍人士或者是說他是不是外籍人士本身都如果是要經過一個調查的話那會有一些那種特殊的情形立刻就是導致這種傳喚不合法的程序瑕疵我們認為說會有一點沒有"},{"start":12563.804,"end":12572.595,"text":"那個彈性那所以是建議就是說像這一類的那個權力保障呢他可以用那個行政指導還有那個實務的措施來加強那個執行來達到橫貧以上"},{"start":12578.973,"end":12597.412,"text":"好 那法務部這邊也基本上是贊成司法院的立場那原則上就是說司法事務上 檢察事務上事實上傳票現在也有相關的英文版的這個傳票啦那是不是有必要用法律來就這種疏忽性的規範規範在我們的刑事疏忽根本大法裡面這個可以再討論"},{"start":12598.473,"end":12621.531,"text":"另外就是在實務上也可能產生剛剛委員或司法院所產生的意見就在檢察官傳訊的時候他可能根本不知悉這個人他是一個外籍人士那一旦如果我們把他規定成應用外該國語言或英文的話他在不知悉的狀態之下他的傳喚的效率未來就可能會被增值了所以這實務上會產生一個困境如果說他沒有一個彈性的規範的話在實務上會對傳喚的效率會產生一些影響"},{"start":12628.019,"end":12654.286,"text":"好 黃委員他所涉及的關鍵問題就是你怎麼定性你給他的通知你界定的是什麼你界定的道理是認為他對於有沒有受到合理的通知那個通知的效力你如果把它界定成是一個程序保障的話那就不是用便利這兩個字就可以解決了"},{"start":12655.816,"end":12682.348,"text":"你現在等於是以不惜犧牲對他的程序保障為代價在追求便利我打開天窗說亮話就是這個樣子啊我反正就給你一張紙啊你看不看得懂那是你家的事啊我給你就好啦你看不看得懂完全是你家的事啦我們在討論刑事訴訟程序當講到權力保障這四個字的時候"},{"start":12684.727,"end":12713.929,"text":"你怎麼會用界定說那到底是方便不方便用這樣子的方式來迴避問題而且下面條文裡面都已經放寬了用英文都算了都已經退到這樣子的程度了還是我們現在的界定是為了避免程序上面的爭執我今天給他這個通知看不看得懂你家的事"},{"start":12716.206,"end":12742.637,"text":"看不看得懂是你家的事啦我反正給你就好了啦你看不懂是你家的事啦這個是我們在刑事訴訟程序上面健行通知應該有的觀念嗎好 那請問各位還有沒有其他意見要補充那就這個文字修正的部分沈委員"},{"start":12744.557,"end":12770.705,"text":"我想這個可能如果我說修法照我們文字修正通過之後你們未來的做法可能是必須要幾乎所有的這些傳喚都必須要準備英文翻譯變成一個知識公共因為你不知道這個人是不是外籍人士你去了他可能長得就跟我一樣但是我可能是美國籍我可能是日本籍"},{"start":12771.525,"end":12790.114,"text":"你不知道但是到時候我主張我是外國籍那你到當初的傳票你沒有給我英文版那你這過去這整個過去傳換程序瑕疵導致後面的這些程序的效力都發生影響所以實務上面"},{"start":12792.395,"end":12811.898,"text":"我剛有講就是說如果今天是說必須附該國語言那這個我今天我就會認為說可能我們目前做不到但是如果說該國語言或英語英文兩種方式我覺得可能會增加我們的負擔但是對於這個"},{"start":12816.141,"end":12838.231,"text":"這個被傳喚者的這個權利保障我覺得是有幫助的不過如果法務部跟這個司法院都有意見的話我覺得我們我是建議說我們就還是保留協商我們先把這個案件先處理但是保留協商好不好黃委員"},{"start":12841.628,"end":12861.588,"text":"那個沈委員的意見我也尊重因為司法法治委員會我們向來的慣例就沒有用表決在處理既然今天沈委員代表民進黨黨團認為說這個案子先放著協商反正我們今天出委員會今天出委員會了以後接下來馬上要進入9月1號報到"},{"start":12863.137,"end":12890.214,"text":"那真的要處理的話到10月再來處理也OK啦所以我覺得沒有必要在委員會用表決的方式來解決既然省委員代表民進黨黨團表達這樣的意見那我們是不是就條文就保留但是送出委員會這樣最起碼有進度嘛不要排了兩次還在原地打轉這樣也不好好 那請問各位還有沒有其他不同的意見好"},{"start":12894.175,"end":12909.148,"text":"好 那71條的部分就已保留好 那我們現在審查排序二第175條有福昆區委員等25人提案及郭益群委員等18人提案好 請問就本條的部分各位有意見要補充"},{"start":12912.165,"end":12938.07,"text":"就一起保留嘛好那就一樣就以保留好那本案逐條均已處理完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢你據審查報告提請院會公決那本案須交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳昭紀委員中線出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員處理"},{"start":12940.77,"end":12966.148,"text":"黃委員不好意思 我最後只講一句話就是說針對有關於無期徒刑不得假釋的部分主席剛才是說要再開公聽會我基本上是尊重我基本上是尊重事實上我們上次在處理孽童的時候這件事情其實就已經早了公聽會的議題上面都有了大家也表示過意見"},{"start":12967.492,"end":12993.063,"text":"我不希望開公聽會成為拖延的手段我不希望開公聽會成為拖延的手段特別是法務部你們去年怎麼跟社會講非常會做大外宣啊對不起我講錯了 非常會做大內宣很有魄力啊年底前推動修法 禁訴啊"},{"start":12995.322,"end":13018.278,"text":"去年講的話 年底以前啊現在已經八月底啦現在已經八月底啦東西都還沒有生出來跟你們講幾次啊跟你們講這件事情你們的部長官威很大還振振有詞啊去年不就是他面對媒體講的嗎自己對全民做的承諾"},{"start":13024.093,"end":13050.092,"text":"到現在要繼續拖要拖到什麼時候拖到天荒地老嗎刑法是重新重新什麼意思我們拖越久我們拖越久社會期待無期徒刑不得假釋的制度就會延宕越久在這段時間當中就會有更多的重刑犯"},{"start":13052.128,"end":13080.174,"text":"他們即使被判的無期徒刑都是可以假釋的而這些人出來社會以後如果造成第二次的違憾請問誰要負責任?債範率很高欸債範率很高欸所以我尊重剛剛張偉的才是要他開一支公定會我OK"},{"start":13081.496,"end":13087.03,"text":"但我不希望成為程序上面拖延甚至是阻擋的藉口盡快處理"},{"start":13089.171,"end":13111.658,"text":"好 跟那個黃委員還有郭委員以及現場的報告就是有關公聽會的部分我會用最快的速度趕快排定那我希望說刑法的這個修正案我們能夠儘快的通過那因為今天我們希望說本來今天我們希望能夠送出委員會但是有許多委員認為說這個刑法這個修正其實知識體大"},{"start":13112.918,"end":13134.649,"text":"那所以那我也覺得好那我們今天就再加開一次供應會事實上我們在五月的時候就已經有在供應會討論過那沒問題那我們再加開一次那我這邊會用最快的速度趕快再排定那希望這個修法能夠趕快過關好那今天本日的議程說討論事項都已經處理完畢那進行到此現在休息謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"163693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163693","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a6509eb07ba4fcb9172618dc12f595704a3dc640bef2b9a2c9f2cba6a9359c3954295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:19:16 - 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內政部跟經濟部次長"},{"start":30.104,"end":42.447,"text":"因為上個月的丹納斯颱風重創公民團體也講說大概有三個很特別的現象是有史以來大致上是登陸台灣西半部最強的颱風"},{"start":45.169,"end":55.081,"text":"整個的十級風暴然後壟罩台南大概將近四個小時所以這次事實上是創下台南氣候戰以來百年歷史最強"},{"start":56.451,"end":78.839,"text":"的第三名那當然就我們就因為這麼樣嚴重就要編列預算那編列預算大概目前救災的所要經費預算大概693億元其中61億元就是各級機關的原有的編列那32億元呢是用在分配在支付那個救助金跟上工津貼後續的要用到600億那"},{"start":80.74,"end":104.008,"text":"那怎麼去花這筆錢甚至我現在來問的是一個相關的一些議題也覺得這次颱風呢對嘉南海線地區的房舍事實上是百年的大考驗那加上當地的房舍都比較老舊所以房屋的整個修繕事實上的問題也很大所以媒體說7月17的報導有提到有1.6萬戶的"},{"start":108.849,"end":127.899,"text":"房屋屋頂全掀了然後半掀颱風剛走大雨又來襲又經歷到7月28號的大雨過後的媒體就指出說嘉南地區超過3萬戶所以請教一下部長那請問這次本市風災水災大概影響的房舍統計大概有多少戶"},{"start":130.529,"end":150.14,"text":"因為媒體講是三萬我不知道你們後來有去我們現在統計上的資料大約是三萬四千多戶目前修繕的戶數已經達到百分之多少有六百億的預算在沒有通過的狀況底下政府發放災民的房屋修繕的補助金是從哪裡來是中央貼補還是地方"},{"start":150.96,"end":171.836,"text":"都有跟委員報告一下其實在這個600億的特別預算如果通過之後當然能夠加速這個房屋的修繕或者其他相關的一個應變或者是減災的措施但是在強風暴雨過後其實地方政府跟中央政府都有投入包括災準金或者是包括那個現在行政院用的這個"},{"start":172.857,"end":186.821,"text":"特別統籌慰問金的部分發放災戶的家園慰住金所以行政院其實在第一時間內就用特統的方式先發放這一部分這是用特統的預算就沒有納入600億預算之內"},{"start":189.062,"end":206.856,"text":"那除了房屋修繕以外的話 災民要搬家還有租屋這些等等安置的費用是中央還是地方來做貼補中央為主 那個其實我們在第一時間內就是說如果他受到這個強風暴雨然後沒有辦法住在原來的地方那其實呢 他可以住在外面"},{"start":207.697,"end":227.123,"text":"不管是避難收容或是住在別人的家裡我們在內政部的國土署都有推出租金的補貼如果是受災戶在特殊狀況下租金補貼還有高達1.2倍所以事實上在颱風過後的那一段時間內也就是說家屋有受損無法居住的時候目前為止不管是一親"},{"start":228.283,"end":257.926,"text":"或者是住在旅馆或者是住在我们可以分布可以知道他住在什么地方的话在租金补贴或是其他的收容安置的话大概都有可以有这样的被变措施其实我也非常感谢包括像慈济功德会或者是其他台积电的这些救援团体他们在第一时间内都有帮忙这些灾户在短暂的时间内受到惊吓的这些人可以得到一些慰助所以我们也非常感谢"},{"start":258.406,"end":278.894,"text":"所以部長看起來中央真的支應非常多的事情在救災工作上非常用心可是也要問說目前大概因為整個工程在房屋的整個的災區修繕房屋的這樣重建所以勞動部有講說也同意要派遣移工進駐那現在到底有沒有人力上的問題"},{"start":280.795,"end":303.252,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實行政院的院長也在第一時間內就指定公共工程委員會的陳金德主委到下面做前進指揮的工作那也請李孟彥來幫忙還有幾位都是相當多的部會幫忙那災後缺工缺料在剛一開始的時候確實有這個困擾但是目前為止我想已經"},{"start":304.574,"end":312.151,"text":"所以缺工缺料的問題也解決了嗎大致上的狀況我是不是可以請我們國土署長來跟你做一下補充說明好嗎好"},{"start":313.599,"end":341.953,"text":"感謝委員詢問因為第一時間當然對這些屋頂來講本來在地的相關的鐵工或者是專門修屋頂的工人本來就不足工班也缺少所以我們才會在第一時間先訂定一個上工津貼然後接下來再由前進指揮所這邊也邀請了中央各工程主管機關一起到地方來協助地方然後引進一些工班來協助地方"},{"start":343.053,"end":367.005,"text":"媒合民眾來進行修繕到目前為止大概有600多戶的民眾的屋頂有接受這個媒合來進行修繕所以內政部真的非常用心主席給我一點時間我問一下經濟部目前有沒有建材順勢漲價的問題你怎麼確保災區使用建材價格是穩定的目前來講我們並沒有掌握到就是說有異常漲價的一個情況好 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謝謝召委那本4號法治委員會的各位委員以及列席的行政官員台北民眾黨黨團在去年我們看到憲法法庭在9月30 20號做成113年憲判制第8號判決"},{"start":21.772,"end":49.45,"text":"不當的限縮了立法形成的空間看到一群大法官自居為立法者針對在什麼樣子的情況之下才能夠宣判死刑附加法律所沒有的要件自己恣意的在憲法法院的判決當中增加了一堆舉世無雙全世界都看不到的法律要件"},{"start":50.71,"end":71.546,"text":"對於司法院的大法官這種違法濫權的行為後續未來要怎麼樣追究相關的責任是另外一回事但更重要的事情是當死刑被宣告的範圍遭到不合理"},{"start":72.563,"end":87.952,"text":"無止境的限縮實質上面等同於幾乎不可能再出現這樣的狀況的時候社會上面所關心的 所期待的是無期徒刑在實際上面運作的效果"},{"start":89.042,"end":108.171,"text":"無期突襲的宣告在我國司法實務上過去數十年它只存在於紙上是最典型所謂的paper law從來沒有在具體的實務上面被踐行我們以102年到111年的數據來當作一個實際觀察的指標會發現"},{"start":115.601,"end":121.591,"text":"102年到111年受無期徒刑宣告的假釋出獄人數高達657個人"},{"start":125.902,"end":148.588,"text":"有657個人在這段期間當中他受的是無期徒刑的宣告但是他被假釋了而假釋平均在監執行的時間只有17.9年等於是這一個無期徒刑的宣告形同句文 毫無任何實質的意義"},{"start":149.628,"end":175.361,"text":"不僅不是無期徒刑甚至連無期徒刑假釋法定最低的門檻通通都沒有達到嚴重的衝擊了人民對於公平正義實踐的信心當然也會影響到我國的刑事司法制度是不是能夠具體發揮制度本來應該有的功能所以"},{"start":176.101,"end":199.182,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團我們特別提案有兩個修正的動點第一個無期徒刑一般的假釋門檻從25年再提升為30年第二個更重要的事情是可以由法院宣告無期徒刑不得假釋我必須要說明的是我國的假釋制度長期以來"},{"start":201.644,"end":227.606,"text":"把這麼重要的權利攸關一半以上的刑期到底要不要執行也就是經過檢察官起訴法院三審判刑定業最後所定的刑期竟然有超過一半以上的刑期是由不具中立性的行政官員所來決定的導致過去在所謂的黑箱假釋的制度當中"},{"start":228.647,"end":246.618,"text":"出現了非常多上下其手的弊案甚至有立法委員大剌剌的把手伸到有關於假釋個案當中引發了非常多的醜聞跟弊案我相信當初"},{"start":248.539,"end":267.475,"text":"特徵組還在的時候在辦六十一在辦特他六十一的時候在立法院裡面所留下來醜陋的歷史紀錄斑斑可考因此針對有關於在無期徒刑如果認為有必要"},{"start":268.496,"end":293.684,"text":"不可以給他假釋的話這個權限當然應該要收歸由法院的法官具體的來加以執行事實上整個假釋的制度都必須要全盤徹底的檢討把這麼重要的權利一半以上的刑期到底要不要執行交給行政官員來加以決定是一件荒謬的事情但是"},{"start":295.031,"end":309.29,"text":"推動改革我們一步一步來針對有關於增加不得假釋的無期徒刑這種刑法種類本來就是法官在具體個案量刑的時候他可以斟酌的事項也就是"},{"start":310.311,"end":328.505,"text":"當法官受到我們憲法法庭的判決不合理的拘束沒有辦法透過一字決來達成死刑的判決的時候這個時候他當然退而求其次可以選擇宣告不得假釋的無期徒刑"},{"start":329.385,"end":341.776,"text":"這個是司法權在運作的時候本質上所因然那因此在制度的設計上我們認為無期徒刑到底可不可以假釋有沒有必要在"},{"start":342.87,"end":367.811,"text":"本來所應該考慮的刑期當中為了要去救濟我們目前死刑的宣告被憲法法庭不當的限縮在真假不得假式的無期徒刑的時候讓法官在具體的個案當中能夠選擇來加以宣告我相信這個是全體國人大家所共同期待的事項當然到今天為止"},{"start":368.812,"end":394.37,"text":"到今天為止在去年大聲的說年底以前我們一定會提出修正草案會推動修法的法務部包括行政院到今天本司法法制委員會要審法案行政院的版本根本沒有送來行政院的版本根本沒有送來這裡面誰怠惰誰失職誰講話不算話"},{"start":397.176,"end":424.863,"text":"我相信今天在座的法務部部長鄭明謙自己心裡非常的清楚對社會做過什麼宣告實際上面做出來的效果是什麼行政院很忙嗎 在忙什麼忙大罷免大成功嗎行政院院長率著閣員下鄉去助攻罷免在野黨的立委破壞台灣的民主制度結果正式不幹"},{"start":426.94,"end":440.523,"text":"跟社會承諾過的全民這麼關注的法案到今天竟然連行政院的版本都沒有提出來令人不僅遺憾而且我相信非常多的人民是感到憤怒的 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"163643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a65050d012bb27288ee88bde083824369fabc0881df2d075de9a32fe287ba23c3e1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:21:24 - 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那事實上我想要告訴各位 告訴國人就是我們目前國家已經實質的廢除死刑那我們再看一下其實司徒獎女教師遭殺害的案子她凶嫌五度判死刑"},{"start":85.074,"end":110.527,"text":"但是在宪判8号出来之后他最后就逃死了无期徒刑定议那马来西亚女大生性侵杀害案件呢这被告也是从一审到更一审都认为他没有教化可能性结果呢今年4月最高法院还是认为他有教化可能性而撤销发回在审我想最后最高的几率应该还是判无期徒刑因为这些法官应该是很懂现在我们的整个政治的风向"},{"start":111.027,"end":132.418,"text":"那從法務部的資料來看以及剛剛黃委員有提到其實我國有657名無期徒刑的受刑人在2013年到2022年獲准假釋而他們平均服刑的期間只有17.9年也就是說他雖然判無期徒刑但是他只服刑17.9年他就出獄了"},{"start":133.138,"end":161.083,"text":"他可能比许多有期徒刑的要服20年以上都还关得少所以无期徒刑在我国根本就变成有期徒刑或是变成一些有心人士伸手介入假释的何准与否的一个很大的问题点那最糟糕的是最近10年撤销假释人数有18407人故意犯罪占57%也就是说假释出来的人有将近6成会再犯"},{"start":162.063,"end":186.975,"text":"这个是不是大家到底有没有注意到这个问题所以我希望把无期徒刑分为三级那第一级就是终身监禁不得假释第二级是要服刑40年才可以申请假释第三级无期徒刑是维持现行法是25年才可以假释那为什么我会用40年的这个概念其实我是比对于我国刑法立法的时候是在民国23年"},{"start":187.995,"end":199.345,"text":"那當時呢中華民國的人民的平均歲數大概是40幾歲那所以你18歲成年到你40歲左右大概是有大概有22年的這個"},{"start":202.588,"end":228.698,"text":"平均余命但是现在的国人他的寿命到80岁了也就是说他18岁到80岁其实他有62年的平均余命这个是不是我们应该去思考我国无期徒刑假释的时间或是有期徒刑的上限应该要拉长这是科学的数据这不是说我们想数字多少就多少我想我提出这个要求并不是说我改变了知识死刑的"},{"start":229.898,"end":253.098,"text":"立場因為現行的審判15死刑絕對是名存實亡了那我們政府不思考怎麼去補救這個死刑跟現行無期徒刑的差距或是原本無期徒刑到死刑無期徒刑25年就可以假釋但是他下一關就是死刑中間有一個太大的空白完全沒有人去理會那這個在司法實務上面都是一個大問題"},{"start":253.999,"end":276.133,"text":"那我既然我一直大聲疾呼這個問題那法務部也說去年也說要提出修正的草案但是我們也都沒有看到所以我想大家都不行動那我自己只好雞婆一點自己攬下來做我想過往到現在我們一直發現一件事情執政黨整天在鬥爭在做他在野黨時候在做的事情"},{"start":277.293,"end":296.079,"text":"現在變成在野黨的委員心疼這個國家然後拼命在做執政黨該做的事情但是我們還是必須要去做啦我覺得啦就是這些對於這些人神共憤天理難容的被告既然不能判死那就把他關到死我覺得這是全國人民心中應該幾乎一致的想法"},{"start":297.386,"end":312.337,"text":"我再说一次这些人神共愤天理难容的杀人犯既然你法官不敢判他死刑那你至少把他关到死永久跟社会隔离这也不是就当年死刑判决后面一定会加上一句说法就是永久与社会隔绝不是这样吗"},{"start":312.737,"end":340.756,"text":"所以这个才是对国家有利最后再提到还有一个修正的重点是合并刑度的修正我国目前合并因执行刑最高30年也就是说你不管干了多少坏事多少条加起来你犯了200条300条加起来最高只能30年那这个跟我们平均余命来比其实是不对的也就是说今天有可能一个状况是你犯越多结果你判得越轻你的折扣越大"},{"start":341.616,"end":352.779,"text":"你变成说你犯罪你伤害越多人你到最后就像拿百货公司会员卡一样你的打折就打越多这个在现行也应该是不被接受的所以我想"},{"start":354.665,"end":378.528,"text":"最後我想就是政府沒有能力使被害人不被殺死但卻有能力讓被告不被判死這個我想不是社會大眾能夠接受的我想這次修法我只有一個目標就是我希望第一個無期徒刑分級第二個就是合併因執行從30年提高到40年我們要讓行為人對他所做的犯罪跟所受到的刑罰能夠相當"},{"start":380.009,"end":385.961,"text":"要罪行要相當這樣的判決才能符合期待讓法律能夠真正落實公平正義"}]}},{"id":"163655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1260f60a4cb8a650ef092dc29efdc0ee18dc12f595704a3d489d0440bf86c386938357d8e0506d445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:19:01 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保持安靜好 感謝主席有請環境部彭部長以及經濟部何次長好 經濟部"},{"start":27.488,"end":31.197,"text":"環境部謝謝 謝謝好 那我想先請教彭部長"},{"start":32.421,"end":60.638,"text":"好 彭部長就是我現在要先請教你就是有關於丹納斯颱風重創台南那強風意外揭露我們台灣的巨大挑戰環境部預估全台總共有33處暗藏的光電板約這個13萬5000片的太陽能電板就是損壞這個數字是過去5年所有的太陽能板所有廢棄的總和的2.5倍部長知道這件事情嗎我知道 對"},{"start":61.198,"end":85.635,"text":"那现在因为现在台风的关系导致这样的太阳能的这个电板它的损坏度非常的高而且非常多的光电板有受到污染那我们也看到新闻有报道尤其在嘉义非常的严重不仅有这个回收业者在场在现场去把这些太阳能光电板破碎或者是造成没办法回收的这样的情形已经造成了环境的污染"},{"start":86.235,"end":113.501,"text":"那部長我是想要跟你報告一件事情我非常擔心啊就像我之前跟你請教的我們的光電板的問題啊是前端無法處理啊後端無法回收啊那很多委員都在請前面都已經請教你了有關於前端處理的部分你也公開表示說你也要求廠商在九月初的時候一定要完成處理的部分可是我現在更擔心的是後端回收的部分啊"},{"start":114.221,"end":136.327,"text":"你們有統計過現在所有這樣子的太陽能板現在總共13.5萬片現在回收業者已經有4萬片你們的說法是已處理可是我想是堆置在這些回收業場的廠辦裡面有大概6萬片是合法擱置在倉庫裡面還有3.5萬片就像剛剛我跟您報告的還無法處理當中那現在有沒有去統計"},{"start":137.628,"end":144.01,"text":"現在這麼多的光電板沒有辦法處理也沒辦法回收現在無法回收的量大概佔百分之多少"},{"start":144.759,"end":172.195,"text":"保委員那個第一個是說現在我們的處理量能大概是一個月可以2900噸遠大於這一次的大概是2600噸左右的量所以理論上是可以但是我們以前沒有預估說一個月去處理那麼大沒錯所以你現在有沒有統計說因為現在這些太陽能板跟過去的我們正常回收模式是不一樣的它要怎麼它雖然是運回去都非常的困難如何放到機器裡面去做這個PPC的分這個做分離"},{"start":174.376,"end":189.965,"text":"這樣的問題有沒有確定說有多少無法回收的比例大概是多少這個還是要能源署那邊最後編號的統計目前我們初估來看的話大概不到5%左右大多數是可以正常那個樣子沒有被損壞但是它已經泡水了"},{"start":190.763,"end":208.28,"text":"因为昨天我们有别的委员在请教您就是说以太阳能板没办法回收大概占10%左右那你现在意思是说因为台风而损坏而更加污染更加残破的能源板只不到5%不能回收所以这个数字我觉得还是要"},{"start":208.88,"end":231.062,"text":"更清楚的回答昨天講的是說一個太陽能板正常的進去大概是92到99%我的問題是這個13.5萬片的太陽能板總共幾%的太陽能板的數量是無法回收的其實請你們要統計一下好不好這個我們會統計因為每一個都有編號那這些無法回收的太陽能板要如何處理第二個"},{"start":231.843,"end":258.248,"text":"就像您說的每個月的回收的量能就像我剛跟大家報告的現在都已經塞車了所以在家裡的這個廠商才沒有辦法把這些太陽能板運到他們的不管是合法站置的廠或是他們的這個處理廠去處理所以目前量能就是堵塞的狀況啊所以每個月到底能實際的回收的量能是多少所以要請部長這邊來處理到底真的是多少那這個資料是否可以公開"},{"start":259.108,"end":282.623,"text":"因為就我們的助理現在上網去查現在的回收業者連一筆都不敢公開就表示他們現在要處理他們現在資源回收的量都非常的嚴重了更況是來處理這些太陽能回收板我覺得這才是最大的問題那第三個我要請教部長的是現在的監察機制到底是中央來監察還是地方來監察未來太陽能板的回收的狀況"},{"start":283.755,"end":298.946,"text":"回收的機制是我們跟能源署會共同來計算我們有一套系統每一個關鍵板的編號都要清清楚楚那他會照真正要回收的方式來去做還是他會就便宜形式的方法這樣我過去跟你請教他會偷偷去這個這個把它"},{"start":301.047,"end":320.625,"text":"把它毁损然后交给再利用业者来处理这点你们有办法来去做个严整的监控包委员没有限地毁损这个事情只有限地毁损那个浮桶那我们也告诉他说这不允许的也开罚了所以基本上呢只有毁坏掉的等于是他必须太阳光链必须到这个回收场我要跟部长报告啊"},{"start":321.546,"end":349.054,"text":"業者會在現場直接做回損的一個狀況我先不問那個業者是誰代表他收到的SOP就是這樣子他拿到這些東西拿到回去他的回收場難道會做合格的回收的方式嗎這點我要打一個很大的問號報告委員那三十幾家的業者都OK只有一家業者是完全不合格的所以我們才會重罰他後面也會持續的重罰下去那後續也要拜託部長跟我們的經濟部這個整個的SOP要好好把它來處理一下"},{"start":349.474,"end":371.269,"text":"不然造成的是環境的整個的能源的問題那最後我也要想請教一下那現在這些破損的太陽能板他們的暗場未來如果這些業者再把重新再把太陽能板安裝上去的時候有沒有災害應變的計畫等等的以及如果未來還是發生災難的時候有沒有大量排除清運計畫會不會造成現在這樣子"},{"start":372.17,"end":394.603,"text":"就是前端無法處理後端無法回收以及如果廠商真的後來沒有辦法處理的話政府有任何的財務計劃來跟這些業者來溝通嗎好 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