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承蒙大院支持完成《審計部組織法》《審計人員運用條例修法》強化審計機關組織結構與禁用多元審計人才相關策進作為及成果包括"},{"start":1943.078,"end":1964.763,"text":"落實監督方面積極辦理各項財務收支出調查嚴密監督預算之執行並審慎積查財務維持行為端正財務注細令推動數位轉型及智能審計成立諸信處及第六廳掌理數位及科技發展審計事項進六年"},{"start":1968.988,"end":1983.152,"text":"政府各機關依據審計機關的審核意見執行改善設施或節省的支出或增加的收入達1193億元令稽查發現各機關人員設有財務上重大違修行為或機關不負責答覆或答覆不當經"},{"start":1995.711,"end":2017.523,"text":"報請監察案處理 移送司法機關遵辦及通知各機關查明處分組共計643案二 強化洞察方面 考核各機關施政績效敦促完備制度規章 並審慎考核公共社書效能原體建議意見 增進公共利益"},{"start":2018.928,"end":2030.621,"text":"近六年度 考核各機關施政績效發現受有未進職者或效能過低等案件經報酬監察案處理或提供刑事主權參考者 計有583案"},{"start":2034.945,"end":2057.703,"text":"發現制度規章缺失或設施不良提出建議改善意見共計1398項認為有可能提升效能或增進公共利益提出建議意見共計3892項三 邁向前瞻方面便是影響各機關施政或營業效能潛在風險事實疫情"},{"start":2060.498,"end":2077.71,"text":"促請入署風險管理並導入外部專業觀點提升損失意見客觀性與公信力近6年度提出疫情性意見共計903項令導入關鍵損失議題發展機制及成立關鍵損失議題發展委員會進行系統性的查核113年及114年度關鍵損失議題涵蓋氣候變遷調適"},{"start":2090.678,"end":2104.45,"text":"改善所得分配、打擊詐欺、能源轉型等跨域的議題顯示損失機關相關的查核機制已作為已能契合國家長期發展趨勢"},{"start":2108.365,"end":2134.61,"text":"四 強化審核報告方面陸續完成總結算營業非營業的分測編報審核報告清晰對應重要審核意見的揭露二 以電子檔的形式編報各類結算審定表 互表達成表件無主化三 增編重要施政議題的查核專章計78篇供各界審慎重要施政項目的執行成效"},{"start":2135.41,"end":2152.592,"text":"四 建制总结算损失报告查询平台截至114年7月抵止已累计浏览22万7千亿次有效提升损失资讯的可进性促进政府输出特名"},{"start":2154.093,"end":2177.009,"text":"5導入新興科技方面加強導入新興工具方法以審計作業實務並開發數位審計模組辦理人員培訓加以推廣擴散109年至114年7月應用大數據分析技術與AI輔助查核案件或助量化財務效益共計159億元並發現多起政府採購廠商設備案件"},{"start":2182.83,"end":2203.158,"text":"令審計人員應用生存式AI輔助查核及發掘採購異常事證相關成果後天下雜誌報導肯定並受邀與行政機關及產業界進行交流六 強化行政合作方面"},{"start":2203.618,"end":2229.699,"text":"自110年度起推動行政機關優良案例推廣推廣擴散制度由各損棄單位發掘各機關的優良失誤計107案推廣至其他機關參考發揮損棄機關正面影響力並深化損棄機關與廉政政鋒組織單位的合作共同把關政府財務助勢過去六年"},{"start":2231.033,"end":2248.202,"text":"率審計部全體同仁 努力推動審計業務的革新與精進 互助具體績效今年8月 奉總統提名諸請大憲同意續任審計長一職堂後大憲同意當秉持審計機關獨立 廉政 專業創新的核心價值"},{"start":2254.204,"end":2262.338,"text":"先以智慧神跡 勇氣神跡 韌性神跡及共尊善智四大面相 更智"},{"start":2264.381,"end":2285.558,"text":"強化審計族群的行使 擴大發揮審計機關對於促進政府良善治理的價值在智慧審計方面以擴展資訊科技及人工智慧的應用審計部為應全球數位發展及政府數位轉型透過數位審計人才的培育開發數位審計模組強化"},{"start":2290.101,"end":2311.73,"text":"機敏資料的保護等措施 持續發展政府數位審計業務審計部將以過去數位審計發展的成果為基礎加強整合程式AI 大數據分析機器人流程主動化 雲端服務等資訊技術與審計業務建構數位化的審計環境 培養兼具"},{"start":2315.852,"end":2334.183,"text":"資訊分析與審計洞察力的專業審計人員打造高效能的諸會審計作業模式在永續方面 以導致國際實務強化永續發展目標之審計審計部歷年來藉盡先進國家的審計實務檢視政府推動國家永續發展的情形審慎篩選攸關國家永續發展及社會公益的重要資政與"},{"start":2344.989,"end":2368.608,"text":"审核报告专章揭露并自113年入期定期发布政府推动国家永续发展情形的审计报告鉴于国际最高审计机关组织倡导审计机关在追踪复合永续发展议程的角色审计部当前面审视政府永续发展政策的执行情形以不理"},{"start":2370.049,"end":2386.487,"text":"遺漏任何人的精神 確保國家永續發展政策得以落實三在任性審計方面 以前瞻的觀點政府任性治理的查核 審計部參考行政院核定國家發展計畫及"},{"start":2390.098,"end":2406.332,"text":"世界經濟論壇聯合國全球風險報告規劃辦理相關查核工作未來當除夕加強查核行政機關推動產業民生資通安全國土防衛等面向的潤性措施強化"},{"start":2406.912,"end":2413.639,"text":"公部門助理的任性與調適能力檢討優化關鍵損棄議題的發展機制以國家整體觀點協助行政部門辨識潛在施政風險與挑戰展現損棄機關促進國家長遠發展之積極功能"},{"start":2424.489,"end":2448.427,"text":"四 在共治善治方面與損棄行動協力共促政府善治之願景自107年上至以來不僅要求損棄機關查核公共資源應用的合法性與效益性皆同前提損棄同仁從善意把關 觸發協助行政機關提升治理效能未來當更新強化損核報告"},{"start":2449.946,"end":2476.873,"text":"及政府的資訊透明度並暢通政府與公民多元溝通管道令擴大發展與推廣行政機關優良實務透過正向的經驗分享與溝通與勾結攜手努力實現政府一體共振善治美好運行以上報告請請主席 各位委員 女士 先生 主持 主教 謝謝"},{"start":2482.318,"end":2499.228,"text":"謝謝 被提名人陳審計長報告我們現在開始進行委員詢問每位委員詢答時間為20分鐘採疑問疑答方式進行輪到詢問委員如果不在場我們視為棄權首先我們請洪孟凱委員詢問陳昭之委員請準備"},{"start":2523.183,"end":2552.512,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳審計長被提名人麻煩被提名人陳審議長馮委員好好審計長及被提名人你好六年前也是在這個場合受到蔡英文前總統的提名那請教再一次被提名會不會感覺到意外應該是有點意外有點意外怎麼說"},{"start":2554.987,"end":2572.634,"text":"年紀已大但是國家需要你的時候還是要義不容辭是不是這個因為在審計部可以為國家為人民做一點事為國家為人民立法部門如此行政部門審計部門也應當如此所以我們看到過去"},{"start":2574.053,"end":2603.127,"text":"不管說我們審計部公佈中央政府總預算的審核報告也揭露不少的預算缺失包括說兩兆多元的前瞻預算特別預算以及施政不力但還被監察院院長在會議之中質詢質問說不應該引起外界的解讀落差那審計長我們想請教再一次被告知說被提名為新任審計長的時候有沒有特別交代你什麼"},{"start":2604.025,"end":2633.164,"text":"沒有所以你保證可以堅守審計權為數字說話當然把官預算跟國人一起捍衛對好那國會會力挺審計權因為我們要追討的是浪花濫用的預算預算當用則用當審則審該用的我們國會不會惡意的來去做阻撓但是如果說不當用的或是浪花的也一定要追討回來您同意嗎"},{"start":2633.732,"end":2662.415,"text":"同意好 沈議長請教在過去審計部有發現超思雞蛋這個案件裡面有交易憑證不正確甚至有不法金額超過六千萬元經濟我們監察院跟審計部都不願意核銷但是北檢卻蜻蜓點水只有起訴三個人農業部不管是部長 市長 司長 科長 董事長全部都牽結不起訴你認為合理嗎"},{"start":2663.991,"end":2682.8,"text":"這是國家的體制因為我審計部發現的問題有違法施職依照審計法我送檢調如果有施職或者效能不彰我送監察院監察院檢調這一次有起訴我尊重司法的"},{"start":2684.901,"end":2705.97,"text":"我們可不可以請教一下當初超私雞蛋爭議的時候審計部的資料告訴我們說是損失至少有這個6000萬元不法金額而損失納稅人的錢是超過5億以上而這5億還不包括產業衝擊以及對人民的影響這審計部報告裡面清楚明白指出的嗎"},{"start":2708.106,"end":2720.847,"text":"對比這樣子不管是不法金額六千萬或者是我們損失五億以上就到最後只有下面的同仁來做負責上面決策單位沒有任何一個負責你覺得以實務經驗來講這樣合理嗎"},{"start":2723.025,"end":2742.646,"text":"這個因為是書法的偵查權我們尊重書法偵查權那損失的預算該誰負責損失我們移送給監察院監察院糾正了農業部並彈劾了他的主辦書的書長還有他的相關同仁城市長有沒有看到最近的一個新聞"},{"start":2744.589,"end":2757.403,"text":"這個清潔隊台北市清潔隊員回收價值32塊的二手電鍋轉送給一個拾荒婦女就會依貪污治罪條例法定5年以上有期徒刑來去被起訴"},{"start":2758.493,"end":2775.969,"text":"那結果這一個超私雞蛋全國那麼大關注審計報告裡面也清楚明白講了是不法金額有六千萬五億以上的一個損失結果到最後居然是以詐欺罪來做起訴癥結而不是用貪污自罪條例會不會覺得雙重標準非常諷刺因為"},{"start":2777.692,"end":2795.787,"text":"他啟示的人員大概就是廠商還有細產會的人所以官員沒有任何的責任從上到下我相信連審計部門、法務部門所有大家都受到當時缺少雞蛋所苦"},{"start":2797.059,"end":2805.968,"text":"我不客氣的講那是國難結果有人在這仇中發國難財結果決策單位沒有一個人要負責沒有一個領導階層或決策階層的人應該負責沈記長"},{"start":2810.117,"end":2834.176,"text":"這一個因為是國家有國家的體制因為我們的審計法是發現不法或者發現效能不彰或者發現失足我們都審計法所以您覺得這次這樣的起訴你可以接受嗎以我們這樣子審計資料提出來的你可以接受因為我尊重這個是國家的體制我要尊重"},{"start":2835.25,"end":2859.702,"text":"你不能只是尊重啊沈議長因為我已經做我的第一關我們希望他一種名義就講了如果說有任何的預算被濫用了那我們是不是應該要窮盡一切辦法讓該負責任的應該負責因為是這樣因為我們有三這一個部分我們發現了剛剛委員有講單計好像和企業規定不合我們已經刪減他兩億七千多萬這兩億七千多萬除了減掉"},{"start":2864.744,"end":2884.281,"text":"查出來 檢查剛剛委員講的六千多萬有問題一萬我們這些還是要兩億多我們還是要看他的單據是不是符合法規規定這是我們損記的主軸我們國家不能讓外界認為只敢打"},{"start":2885.951,"end":2904.008,"text":"蒼蠅不敢打老虎只敢對清潔隊員32塊電鍋就用貪污治罪條例結果真真正正影響到全國人民的事情卻是高高舉起輕輕放下好 提名的人你既然有提到是說這有可能減掉的部分那另外我再請教就業安定基金"},{"start":2905.359,"end":2930.362,"text":"剪掉相對來講比較沒有直接的關係因為審計部分有特別點出來就業安定基金決算裡面用途關聯性不高應該予以收回有高達7224萬對吧對好那這個7224萬但是沒想到勞動部居然講是說他要用人民納稅前編列公務預算來回補這就業安定基金沈議長你可以同意嗎"},{"start":2931.687,"end":2957.616,"text":"這個因為我們的關聯性不高勞動部要逐項查明如果因為其中也有送檢調的我們先講就業安定基金能不能去開演唱會能不能去拍影片做大內宣能不能去裝潢辦公室這個他勞動部要逐項查明逐項查明以後他會報如果"},{"start":2958.516,"end":2976.073,"text":"他是公務用途他會報行政院行政院會要不要給他編列預算這個由行政院決定大院會不會通過這個由大院決定那至於他要我們希望他基金和公務要把他劃分清楚"},{"start":2977.694,"end":2997.912,"text":"市長你們是把關預算執行的單位那既然預算被這樣濫用了這樣的一個預算其實用途完全不符合我們也看到這樣的狀況了不管是開演唱會不管是辦公室裝修或者是影片一魚多吃一支影片變成五支然後分散來去做核銷那麼請教7224萬"},{"start":3002.937,"end":3014.705,"text":"這個應該是跟這個執行者就是所謂的這些部長 司長來去做追查還是要由公務預算來買單這個我們第一個要先追查他那些有沒有私用"},{"start":3015.624,"end":3039.782,"text":"就已經使用了嘛 所以你們點出來這不符合阿這個 剪掉等一下我現在 因為你是被提名人我們要知道你的態度跟專業能不能讓我們在信任六年把審計權交給你所以我們才想問的是說如果說遇到這樣的狀況到底是要行政部門去編列預算用人民納稅錢來回補還是應該由始作俑者來負起這個責任就這麼簡單"},{"start":3042.284,"end":3056.8,"text":"這個是一個要因為這個是受及司法的問題所以我們移送檢調受及效能不彰的問題或者你濫用或者怎麼樣那我們已經移送檢查案檢查案"},{"start":3058.612,"end":3081.26,"text":"糾正了 彈劾了既然糾正 既然彈劾 是不是代表說那一個濫用預算的人有責任那是不是應該由他來回歸回補給國家預算而不是用國家人民的納稅預算再去補那個基金所以我們勞動部查明他要審慎的來查明這個相關的省局長 現在就是官官相護嘛"},{"start":3081.9,"end":3099.857,"text":"因為我們還會看到官官相護我們就是看到這個總共人民才會沒有辦法接受所以才期待一個獨立廉政專業創新的沈記長能夠點出問題我們還是會看這個收回的情形所以一句話你認為是公務預算補可以還是認為應該要跟"},{"start":3104.263,"end":3129.568,"text":"這個要根據用途事實查明的結果來處理你們的檢調報告 審計報告都出來了他裝修辦公室可能是公務用途公務用途他應該是用裝修漂漂亮亮的辦公室放盆栽或放景觀本來可能 來 沈記長您的辦公室裝修都多少錢我到現在要離開了"},{"start":3132.657,"end":3156.899,"text":"都沒裝修非常好本席在這一件因為我是續任所以我也沒有用我們辦公室裝修費用但是他用了一百多萬裝修一個辦公室合理嗎我們說他這是公務用途嗎我們給他送公務用途嗎我租出有點胡亂我們請有點而已嗎我們已經請送請監察院調查沈議長是"},{"start":3161.588,"end":3189.095,"text":"專業獨立不要閃閃躲躲這是大家對你的期待不閃躲再來請教那個影片拍影片說金額宣傳金額用就業安定基金來做宣傳推廣金額一直增加變成現在三年合計八億元都在做這個就業安定基金拿來拍影片這也是審計報告裡面點出來的問題我們就想問尤其這裡面最貓膩的事情他是使用開口合約"},{"start":3191.796,"end":3209.541,"text":"開口合約相對來講比較緊急的狀況譬如說有可能預期的天災搶休嘛我就明白的請您告訴國人也宣示一下未來各部會機關能夠用基金預算來做開口合約做文宣媒體通路採購嗎"},{"start":3210.762,"end":3211.163,"text":"這一個我們要看"},{"start":3228.985,"end":3232.227,"text":"還要看看什麼要看這個整個採購性質是怎麼樣一般上這一種的應該不必用開口碟應該用搶修搶險當時設計是說災難來了"},{"start":3243.566,"end":3268.734,"text":"趕快 就用開口合約趕快找人把他搶休搶閒是 這個大家都知道所以他們現在濫用開口合約這樣的一個制度所以 本席剛剛的問題再次請教 沈機長我們發現了這個問題未來各部會各基金能不能用開口合約來做媒體文宣通路採購我們會注意這個問題什麼叫你們會注意 能不能啦這個因為是有"},{"start":3271.641,"end":3285.844,"text":"因為這個主管機關是這個採購的主管機關是工程會我在我審計部的立場只能說我會注意他是不是能這樣那你會注意他能不能這樣不能嘛"},{"start":3287.156,"end":3306.733,"text":"原則上因為這個我每個華都有主管機關我不能超越這個機關你們都不行我這要做客觀公正的提名人預算都是人民的納稅錢你今天身為審計把關的單位一句能與不能"},{"start":3307.708,"end":3329.664,"text":"我其實 你講出來 不要以為這個是陷阱給你跳而是你講出來之後 未來各行政機關就是一個宣示這不分藍綠 不分黨派 不分朝野應該是說過去有人有這樣濫用這個機構我們就要告訴他 不能用了原則上沒有特別的理由 我尊重委員的意見是嘛 不行嘛獨立 廉政 專業 創新對"},{"start":3332.574,"end":3359.694,"text":"不要逼本席再一次強調要變成是刻在這應該照理講 刻在你心裡的這個都貼在我們所有的牆壁上所以說不要讓本席失望你的詢答讓國人認為沒有辦法再交給你六年法定義務支出我們剛剛都一直強調是說多給的要收回 對不對那一樣"},{"start":3360.938,"end":3384.16,"text":"應該要給的是不是應該要給法律上要給的就要給非常好法定義務支出一般性補助款算不算法定義務支出一般性補助款在它歸類的時候不管是4至391號4至520號解釋相關的一般性補助款其實就是法定義務支出是吧"},{"start":3384.761,"end":3412.026,"text":"主計總署也好 審計部也好都有這樣子在總預算裡面明白規定總預算案的表件裡面它是列法定義務支出法定義務支出法定義務支出為依相關法令明文規定必須編列的經費即使行政部門無法因為財政困難而予以縮減或是刪除支出 是吧"},{"start":3415.031,"end":3439.486,"text":"因為他還要思考啊 還要辯解啊 沈記長對啦 這個是因為大安已經追加預算把這個問題解決了這不是解不解決問題 我現在問你的是實質的狀況你是沈記長 你站在一個公正的第三方的角度來看本席現在是想請教 一般性補助款是法定義務支出"},{"start":3440.643,"end":3468.537,"text":"那是歸類在法定一出剛剛委員也很認真的看到了大老關的事件如果確定法律一律出出我們應該是中央今天可以說我高興我就把你給拿回來我今天不高興我就不要編中央今天可以扣除地方政府的一般性補助款四分之一然後把責任怪東怪西怪南怪北就是不檢討自己可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":3470.113,"end":3490.742,"text":"這個因為是在大院有給他一個636億的...立法院可以刪除一般性補助款立法院可以刪除法定義務支出嗎歷年來是沒有做過立法院沒有權利刪除法定義務支出憑什麼行政部門可以刪除法定義務支出之後然後推給立法院這是邏輯問題啊"},{"start":3492.25,"end":3517.101,"text":"沈記長這個是應該照預算的編制或者預算的審議應該要照法定義務支出來支出要照法例的規定來執行法定的規定來執行那就是議詞的是法定義務支出不能去刪減另外您剛提到依照法令規定來執行"},{"start":3519.649,"end":3533.516,"text":"軍人待遇條例警察人士條例也在立法院正式三讀通過並且總統已經公告行政院沒有附議那依法行政是不是應該編列預算"},{"start":3536.899,"end":3552.319,"text":"這個法例通過了不要忘記喔 您剛剛上一秒才講說應該要依法例來執選現在法例怎麼規定但是行政院什麼時候編這個預算應該他有他的安排什麼叫行政院什麼時候編這個預算叫因為他預算的編制權法有相關的執行"},{"start":3554.381,"end":3576.682,"text":"施行日期公告了 總統已經公告了在立法院 在行政院 一算的編制權在立行政院 這個是憲法的規定他有權利在行政院 但是依法啊他的權利也是法律給他的權利啊所以他是不是應該要依法行政所以他要把所有的條件 相關的法律條件啊 走完"},{"start":3578.008,"end":3602.062,"text":"他要把相關條件走完 什麼意思就是現在在釋憲 要請釋憲結束之後他才要編釋憲 或者是說 要呼籲這一個不乃是說 還沒有釋憲以前要尊重大案的決議還沒有釋憲以前要尊重立法院的三讀通過法令並且總統公告沒有呼籲的決議"},{"start":3603.387,"end":3631.837,"text":"好 那現在他沒有尊重 他沒有編列完了 他是編住的時機這是違法編住的時機沒有 他現在行政部門就直接講了我們支持中華民國的國軍我們支持警察消防所有人員的辛苦所以我們立法院正式三讀通過了軍人待遇條例以及警察人士條例明年的中央政府總預算送進來一樣超過三兆元但是沒有把這個編列進去"},{"start":3633.177,"end":3641.419,"text":"行政部門講什麼講說現在還要釋憲如果釋憲完之後才要再來補相關的預算那我才請教沈記長預算要怎麼追加"},{"start":3643.166,"end":3668.602,"text":"因為預算還送來 大胭還沒有開始審議所以大胭審議的時候因為預算的審議前我們可不可以依法 論法 就法就是因為這樣子所以說你不要忘記你剛講的應該要依法行政所以大胭在審議預算的時候也可以提出有這樣的一個情形所以現在是行政部門沒有依法行政 是吧"},{"start":3670,"end":3695.47,"text":"這個因為剛剛委員有講到他們可能有一點還在整個行政部門還在整個盤算盤算還可以怎麼盤算這就是現在中華民國政府在民進黨政府主政之下最大的問題所有事情都不依法行政都在盤算都在算計都在想的是怎麼樣對自己的政治利益最好沒有依法行政就是現在最大的問題您可以同意嗎"},{"start":3697.455,"end":3711.953,"text":"這一個我去評論 不同意因為我是審計的 是事後審計的是 就是因為你是審計就是因為我剛剛一直強調你要獨立 廉政 專業 創新所以本席才會依法 論法 就法請教您"},{"start":3712.734,"end":3740.639,"text":"因為你是被提名人所以本席尊重你本席才會希望看到未來你是不是能夠依法行政當人民給你權利要你做獨立廉政專業創新的時候你能不能不懼老虎講出真話而不是現在還要看風向台灣已經被政治耽誤太久了我們要的是依法行政所以現在沒有依法行政的行政部門是不是應該被譴責這整個的流程"},{"start":3761.377,"end":3786.894,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的詢問謝謝陳審計長陳審計長請喝口水吧您的水杯你喝完水我們就開始下面一位委員要詢問了"},{"start":3792.847,"end":3818.747,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請陳昭之委員詢問郭國文委請準備謝謝主席有請提名人麻煩再請被提名陳省長陳委員好"},{"start":3820.672,"end":3848.409,"text":"提名人好 我一下就稱呼您 沈記長沈記的職權包括監督機關的預算的執行還有稽查機關人員他們對於財務財政方面是不是有不法或不忠於職務這個行為相對的就是機關的部分當他面對審計人員在執行他的職權的時候他必須詳實回答或提供資料不得隱匿是這樣嗎"},{"start":3851.411,"end":3879.186,"text":"那如果發現機關人員他有不法或不忠於這個他的職務的部分那是不是要報請監察院依法處理那如果涉及刑事責任還要依法送辦對 因為不法就警察委員所談的是對的那麼我在審計部的審計報告當中發現跟台電相關的這個篇幅不少但我必須說很多不法的事情審計部是摸到了邊"},{"start":3880.367,"end":3901.064,"text":"有待深入很多不法的情勢是如此我的意思是說有摸到邊但沒有深入更多不法的情勢台電是很會隱匿的審計部毫無直覺稍後我會跟審計長說明這個部分我們先回到簡報上你看審計報告的截圖報告上面說環團認為台電隱匿了協和電廠突然超標的問題"},{"start":3909.531,"end":3936.223,"text":"那審計部卻只認為台電未來有框起來的地方對廠區污染 土壤污染的情形負有揭露及處理責任審計長 我想要請問你各個行政機關還有國營事業既然是有心想引力你覺得他還會主動他會願意要負起揭露跟處理的責任嗎我們是有通知台電要他改善"},{"start":3937.632,"end":3945.04,"text":"但是也有通知環境部要他處理但是沒有處理的話有逐年上升的現象"},{"start":3946.238,"end":3967.164,"text":"我們還在追查還有更多 沈機長在環評會上台電提供的資料隱匿了協和電廠有土壤污染的嚴重情形但是在多方努力之下在環境部跟基隆市市政府的環保局一同進場查證了好幾個月"},{"start":3970.705,"end":3994.117,"text":"確認 這個是報告書長質土壤污染超過管制標準將被公告為所謂的污染的長質台電終於必須承認必須正式並且整治改善污染狀況這是台電本來就該做的事情但是它內部卻長期一再的隱匿一直到今年這個問題才被正式挖掘 攤開來"},{"start":3996.498,"end":4022.983,"text":"請問沈記長你要不要報請這個監察院依法處理呢這一個我們如果這種現象我們馬上查不是如果啊 有報告啊對 那我們會馬上查核馬上移送 如果有這個事實怎麼馬上 你看到這個報告之後沒有做嗎我們一線作案 這是我們以前今天回去就做了是不是移送監察院好 我們移送監察院這一個如果切事實我們就移送監察院"},{"start":4025.584,"end":4042.736,"text":"今天回去就做了9月9號 沈機長台電發生興達電廠天然氣外洩爆炸氣候案件台電對外說明他說是因為天然氣管線的法蘭街頭磨損造成外洩但是根據前幾天的媒體報導台電內部有吹哨者"},{"start":4043.456,"end":4060.403,"text":"像媒體檢舉說有許多劣質的中國製的法蘭賣到台灣流入中油跟台電恐怕跟這次興達電廠的爆炸事故是有關請問沈記長您開始做調查了嗎已經交代我的同仁去做了"},{"start":4060.703,"end":4075.194,"text":"這件事已經開始調查了因為我們以前也查過很多偽造進口證明或者是用來源不明的貨品我們查過有八、九十件所以我們現在這個我們有經驗"},{"start":4076.455,"end":4092.031,"text":"所以吹哨者很重要吹哨者保護法也非常重要我必須報告沈記長台電的各種更新改建機組工程還有煤炭工程在材料的使用上有很大的問題我質詢過很多次興達電廠只是冰山一角"},{"start":4093.032,"end":4121.454,"text":"有更多的弊端等著審計部去挖掘去年9月台灣民眾黨在立法院召開了一場記者會我們揭發了台電大林電廠他的運煤系統改建工程當中大量使用不合格不符合勞動部這個職安署TS標章認證的防爆管配件這一頁我先請您看一下這個就是台電採購的合約書當中框起來的那一段就是上面寫著這個"},{"start":4123.878,"end":4126.267,"text":"管配件的材質必須是可鍛鑄鐵"},{"start":4128.294,"end":4155.064,"text":"或是鍍鋅鋼但是因為沈機長可斷鑄鐵因為在國際上沒有在生產了可能是環保的因素那台電後來也開會就要求說要使用強度更好的一個叫做球末鑄鐵的材質我想這是對的就是你要的東西是缺貨但是你不能往下把標準降下來尤其這個是防爆管的配件所以事實上要使用球末鑄鐵但結果沈機長你請看"},{"start":4157.825,"end":4179.324,"text":"8月6號 治安署到台大大林電廠抽測檢查的結果發現兩大問題第一個問題是台電的大林電廠他現場裝設了申方 蒙利還有正方三家公司的防爆管的配件都出現材質不合格的狀況你看印章對不對 不合格不合格不合格 你看到不合格"},{"start":4181.31,"end":4198.529,"text":"這張表我給經濟部前部長郭部長看過他無動於衷這個製造廠商名稱都是台電提供給職安署了已經過了一年多這是去年8月6號職安署百般的坦戶到今天沒有開罰"},{"start":4200.511,"end":4221.949,"text":"審計部對於治安署編列的預算他在執行這個防爆器管配件的認證業務但卻沒有辦法確保這個產品是有品質的一致性而且也沒有依法開罰各種堵直行為請問審計部你要不要查送檢查後調查後送檢察院跟移送法班"},{"start":4223.255,"end":4243.726,"text":"這個組安署啊 既然去查了不合格我們有看到我們會依照委員的那個我們會去整個調查調查完如果有委員所講的這些問題我們移送這個是去年我們就開了記者會了這個資料非常清楚我們會移送那個監察案來調查"},{"start":4245.782,"end":4271.538,"text":"那這次的這個抽驗當中還有第二個問題政客公司代理的國際大廠叫Appleton這個叫原型接線盒原型接線盒他有驗出這個同一家公司驗出合格跟不合格的這個兩種結果我在這裡要強調不合格的原型接線盒這個是由政客公司提供這個事情不是我的解讀而是台電說的台電說由這個"},{"start":4273.599,"end":4294.369,"text":"這家公司他所提供的政客公司提供的Appleton的這個原型接線盒有不合格的跟有合格的那請這個陳記長繼續看因為同樣標示Appleton的廠牌原型接線盒那為什麼會有合格又有不合格兩種完全不同的結果呢"},{"start":4295.409,"end":4316.683,"text":"我的直覺是有仿冒品參雜其中所以我的辦公室就進一步去要求台電提供材料查驗申請單結果我發現什麼呢不合格的標記為Appleton的這個廠牌的原型接線口號台電事後承認"},{"start":4318.456,"end":4337.148,"text":"是這個承包商叫做現代樂田他的下包廠商叫做成鋼公司他沒有經過台電的器材檢驗自行從興達漁港工程的餘料剩餘的材料取用然後安裝到煤倉工程上"},{"start":4340.624,"end":4349.11,"text":"到目前為止問題還在這裡台電不只是讓這個不合格的仿製的防爆管配件他仍然裝設在場區"},{"start":4351.243,"end":4369.011,"text":"而且用盡各種方法拖延改善期限更離譜的喔更離譜的喔他在其他的工程例如這次興達電廠他的燃氣工程繼續採購繼續採購這個申芳跟萌玉這個有被檢查出不合格產品的這個廠商啊"},{"start":4370.137,"end":4381.12,"text":"沈記長對於如此妨害危害勞工安全的採購弊端你要不要追查要不要報請監察院依法處理"},{"start":4382.028,"end":4405.448,"text":"第一個我們以前在查台電這畫面的時候也發現他很多廠商用這種類似的來期待結果你怎麼做我們就移送檢查案叫他移送法辦有嗎有結果呢結果他們就相關的那些廠商就被禁止台電讓這個東西繼續放在廠職裡"},{"start":4408.43,"end":4431.835,"text":"這個我們會照委員的意思來處理因為台電很多都是外包廠商所以常常都會 外包廠商不是理由 該負責的就要負責台電就是要負責 我今天舉了很多例子這個當然他要管理好有報告 有資料他當然要做好管理"},{"start":4433.541,"end":4452.199,"text":"好 沈機長我還是要請教你就業安定基金拿去開演唱會 做春聯 紅包袋這個完全不符合他原來的目的的事情當然就被濫用了7224萬剛剛洪委員也提到這些亂花的錢洪部長竟然說要爭取公務預算歸電"},{"start":4453.94,"end":4481.328,"text":"意思就是要拿納稅人的錢來補回來全民買單但是勞動部明年的預算書沒有規定這筆錢所以我今天要向省紀長確認就業安定基金被濫用的部分你們有把它剔除嗎因為如果你剔除的話勞動部部長必須向當初亂花錢的人追討甚至強制執行我現在今天再跟您確認你有把它剔除嗎"},{"start":4482.233,"end":4504.284,"text":"我有把他修正檢列 他要列應收款回來你直接告訴我 你就是剔除嘛這個就是一個名詞跟一個做法嘛你有沒有剔除我有檢列 他要應收回來沈記長 你如果剔除根據審計法你就是要給他期限追繳啊請問這個期限是多久"},{"start":4504.904,"end":4526.727,"text":"我們要他逐項查明已經發生這麼久了我只問你期限多久我只問你期限多久我們一直在追蹤他改善的情形沒有期限喔做外事喔 做到任期結束為止喔那如果你沒有剔除你聽起來我好像沒有剔除喔有修正 有檢列"},{"start":4528.072,"end":4549.491,"text":"你那個檢列跟剔除 檢列是全額檢列嗎剔除是這樣 剔除是很明確這一個是因為舊服務法 舊業服務法他在這個放在舊業服務法 舊業服務法是勞動部的法我要尊重勞動部 勞動部已同意我把他檢列了他說他會直向查明 全額檢列嗎陳記長我覺得這個有點護航耶 這護航勞動部耶不會護航他 不會護航他"},{"start":4552.892,"end":4567.945,"text":"所以結果反正不能讓全民買單嘛對不對他預算書也不敢嘛但是這個錢就要追回來啊他如果委員會自己私用當然我們會如果他沒有追回來我們還是會移送檢查案調查"},{"start":4570.154,"end":4597.156,"text":"沈記長 請問美濃大峽谷市你有在關注嗎美濃大峽谷大峽谷有看到內政部國管署 國土管理署每年編列了五六千萬去運作所謂國土利用的監測整合資訊網它是透過衛星去判讀是不是有因為稻採砂石或是青島廢棄物造成國土有變異的地方這應該是一個科技執法非常有幫助的工具 對嗎對"},{"start":4599.238,"end":4616.073,"text":"那我請問沈機長現在地方政府問題在哪裡呢地方政府取得這個國土變異點資訊之後好戲的執法有很大的問題那為什麼會這樣說沈機長前幾天我和環保團體一起開會國土署出席的同仁"},{"start":4617.295,"end":4630.715,"text":"當天他們說這個系統當這個系統發現國土有變異點他們就把相關資料交給地方政府主管機關去執行例如美濃大峽谷這個案子是2024年初"},{"start":4633.058,"end":4651.615,"text":"一年半前了國土組發現有國土變異的時候就把這些相關資訊給高雄市環保局去執行但事實上卻是今年九月要不是有民意代表去勘查那這件事不會被發掘出來不會被攤出來大家都不會知道所以等於說一整年多從去年到今年"},{"start":4652.656,"end":4654.198,"text":"這個我有請他們去了解的"},{"start":4681.539,"end":4695.917,"text":"有嗎 已經有了嗎 有有進度了嗎這個已經 最近的新聞嘛 他們已經在因為我們一個調查案子啊 都會規劃會整理 會相關的再出動"},{"start":4697.789,"end":4719.966,"text":"審計長你今天答應了我很多事而且這都是你的職責嘛審計部的職責嘛影響國家的財產安全我們都有責任接下來我請教你這個少子化問題這是113年審計部的決算審核報告為了提供優質的生養環境減輕家長負擔政府推出0到2歲社區公共托育計畫但是卻被國發會評為"},{"start":4722.108,"end":4731.677,"text":"高風險紅燈預警計畫為什麼呢因為實現率太差了113年度第三期跟第四期的實現率只有19.28%以及37.23%"},{"start":4737.813,"end":4759.134,"text":"本來預計要522處公共托育設施結果完成400多所但是還有35個鄉鎮市區沒有完全沒有托育機構的規劃實在是慘不忍睹我想請教沈記長上個月8月出生台灣出生的出生跟死亡人口數你有概念嗎"},{"start":4760.522,"end":4767.97,"text":"大概多少一個是書生8464一個是15226這種人口負成長已經連續20多個月了這麼嚴重的國安危機但是對少子化的預算執行率這麼低"},{"start":4779.707,"end":4796.387,"text":"我們根本覺得政府沒有心要解決這個少子化的問題難怪人民無感沒有生育動力沈記長 執行預算這麼低沈記長 有意願但沒有生育大概有兩種狀況想生但養不起"},{"start":4797.168,"end":4813.989,"text":"這是一種一種是想生養得起但有生育上的困難那第一種當然靠國家的政策很多幫忙剛剛我們講脫育政策啦或是一些補助來處理但是第二種的話就必須訴諸醫療了想生養得起但他有困難生育那就是要這個"},{"start":4815.39,"end":4839.395,"text":"利用人工生殖技術來幫助建立他們這個期待的家庭但是沈記長有很多人一直在等待因為衛福部長期行政怠惰讓很多需求的人困在年久未休年久失休的人工生殖法裡面請問沈記長你還記得你來拜訪的時候你有跟我我們談及這個代孕的這件事情嗎你記得嗎"},{"start":4845.803,"end":4860.952,"text":"台湾社会台湾代理育母政策已经超过30年了我记得你先前来拜会的时候是有正向表达支持但今天我还是要跟沈记长确认两件事第一个您是否支持代孕解禁让代孕法治化"},{"start":4861.852,"end":4871.835,"text":"我們少子化是很嚴重所以多元的生小孩包括政府現在花幾萬塊我會把這個整個做一個了解為什麼衛福部把這個案子勾這麼久"},{"start":4879.715,"end":4896.81,"text":"就制度設計因為您當天告訴我是您基本上是支持的那您是否認同應該有相當的明確的限制跟配套當然包括採非營利禁止中間抽成限定使用對象完善身心等評估還有醫療保障孩子的權益等等這些配套"},{"start":4898.311,"end":4919.837,"text":"去年台大醫院政治中心陳美洲主任有講代理一部不應該脫鉤條文已經討論多年要一次解決這個重點是在哪裡焦點不該是贊成或反對而是如何訂定完善的管理配套跟契約規範陳記長行政怠惰的時候他該有的職責的時候"},{"start":4921.877,"end":4948.905,"text":"也是你的責任請問貝蒂明人就是說如果待運立法通過從審計機關的角度你認為在政府的財務支出跟行政監督上要優先注意哪些風險我想藉助你的專業在我們立法的時候這個會期我們會當作優先法案來處理因為做這些事有相當的一些影響那些財務支出跟行政監督"},{"start":4950.226,"end":4958.22,"text":"處理掉我們會對這個案子去查衛福部他做到什麼程度為什麼處處沒有提出"},{"start":4959.122,"end":4985.201,"text":"國安問題少子化這麼嚴重人工生殖法放了十幾年沒有實質的修改行政怠惰也是審計部可以了解的事情啊對 對 對沈記長 我再請問你在野黨有聯署要廢除監察院這是民進黨在野時長期的主張連賴清德總統也說過那如今民進黨也說他們奉陪到底廢除這個監察院那我想請問這個沈記長如果"},{"start":4988.559,"end":5003.972,"text":"監察院被廢除你認為審計權要由誰來行使是要將審計權歸到立法院呢還是另設一個獨立機關我想聽聽您的意見這個國際最高審計機關或者世界各國大部分都獨立行"},{"start":5005.819,"end":5028.777,"text":"有在國會也有但是少數美國就是在國會但是像日本新加坡韓國那個華國通通在都獨立出來所以沈記長已經有思考過這個問題了也了解好謝謝陳昭志委員謝謝沈記長謝謝"},{"start":5049.175,"end":5072.85,"text":"好 接下來我們請郭國文委員詢問賴思寶委員請準備主席有請沈機長麻煩再請被提名人沈機長郭委員好沈機長恭喜"},{"start":5074.412,"end":5099.47,"text":"過去六年來 我知道我們審計部其實在秉持三大功能落實監督 強化洞察 邁向潛戰接下來這六年要朝向智慧審計永續審計 韌性審計跟共振善治這四大面向來完成可是當我們又有新的一個面向要發展之前我們就回顧舊的這一個三大的目標功能有沒有達成"},{"start":5100.707,"end":5125.076,"text":"過去來說的話 基本上整個審計部有提出25項跟29項的關鍵議題報告過去這兩年但是這兩年當中其實延續我過去在地方政府在參考你們地方的審計處的報告當中確實都羅列得非常清楚報告寫得洋洋灑灑但是都有一個習慣就是最後的結語都很溫和"},{"start":5126.638,"end":5134.828,"text":"结局是什么呢 建议改善结局是什么呢 就是通盘检讨感觉上都不痛不痒 隔穴骚痒"},{"start":5136.482,"end":5159.661,"text":"要說又不敢說 點到為止然後就有一種現象最近稍微有一點改變就是本席當初就要你做一個改善所得分配跟低薪的問題專報的時候你就有直指問題的核心譬如講你那時候就提到產算法的部分有關於這一個前提過於嚴格或者學費的補助的時候比較有感 應該持續推動"},{"start":5161.328,"end":5177.885,"text":"本席心目中的這個審計報告當中應該要直指核心根據問題如何解決而不是解釋問題所以說我是覺得你接下來要續任這六年的審計長我除了恭喜之外有更高的期待"},{"start":5178.746,"end":5196.433,"text":"你要如何改變這個文化這非常關鍵啦不要讓人家淪為這個官官相負啊你沈濟波所扮演的角色就是在做一個內部的監督嘛對不對 情長你有沒有辦法改變這樣子溫柔的文化所以要求"},{"start":5198.477,"end":5219.796,"text":"會照委員會意見來做 像首都分配委員很關心我們13年來是查後來行政院就成立了經濟發展委員會他裡面把低薪的問題把一些房價的問題住宅的問題都放進去了那我們說現在住宅整個政府我們看觸及到差不多290萬戶"},{"start":5222.979,"end":5251.045,"text":"對啊 所以這個就政府都有在做沈院長你講的就沒有錯啦當你指出問題核心的時候行政部門的態度就會有所不同嘛這凸顯你的角色重不重要凸顯你的審計報告寫的方式重不重要所以不要再寫那些空洞的隔靴搔癢的 什麼通盤減少什麼要有所改善現在我們都改了就會改 醫藥全部都改 你都改你只有部分改而已 你還改的不夠啦"},{"start":5251.685,"end":5269.11,"text":"更何況小組我們說你那個婚結婚很重要他叫我不立宅你只有那個部分改要繼續改對不對 側大改全面改 重量要跳出來啊你的角色很關鍵沈院長你的角色很關鍵你接下來還要幹6年"},{"start":5271.471,"end":5298.251,"text":"審計部還有什麼問題呢 我跟你講審計部還有輕輕放下 抓小放大我跟你說 你會想審計部啊發現問題之後啊 就送哪裡送監察院嘛 監察院做什麼監察院多數是對機關提出糾正比較少對人去進行懲處 你有沒有發現對人的部分就發放到哪裡發放到各行政機關嘛"},{"start":5299.719,"end":5310.485,"text":"放放到原來選擇單位 他們不處理結果是如何 結果我就用結果讓你來做討論你就看113年 決算審計報告為例1 審計部呈報監察院的案件當中一共250件 結果一送檢調並糾正一件"},{"start":5326.769,"end":5340.66,"text":"另外要求你查明處分的113件你已經要求查明處分了各機關實際處分37件乘除124人而中間記大過了兩個記大過 兩個小過120個申屆高達95%好了 你要求的結果"},{"start":5356.086,"end":5384.239,"text":"就輕輕放下嘛 對不對你高高舉起嘛 輕輕放下你站在一個行政部門的檢察官類似的角色當中你要求要明文查處就是說呢 你求情量刑看求情都很重 但是量刑很低是不是你定罪利太低是不是你有問題 你有沒有思考過這樣的結果有沒有實質上達到什麼具體的改善的可能"},{"start":5385.339,"end":5411.374,"text":"我們和監察院合作是還蠻好的啦一些縱效我送給他的差不多25%有糾正差不多百分也有彈劾這個大概我和監察院的我有去注意到這個問題但是我們發現他有維碼失足我們也有直接送的喔我們送了兩千多件喔但是你要求他們那你以後就直接送就好啦"},{"start":5412.875,"end":5429.727,"text":"那你為什麼要繞一個圈讓他自行去處理我就說直接你自己也看到了從你決算審視報告當中你的比例上我再舉一個例子你112年的時候總決算的時候你提出619項的審計意見到了113年"},{"start":5434.812,"end":5447.199,"text":"總決算的時候這619件當中還有153件他通知他們再次改善怎麼會這樣怎麼會你要求他再處理的"},{"start":5449.04,"end":5469.971,"text":"還有四分之一不處理這不是挑戰你審計部的權威嗎就是代表你的權威性不足嘛對不對你要求的他根本沒有在多大的程度在重視你審計部的意見嘛那你審計部寫這麼多意見是做我們比賽嗎這樣啊 這刑事機關大部分會改但是有的要給他時間"},{"start":5471.435,"end":5488.732,"text":"所以我們也要看在行之淵有的是要立法有的要修改規則所以一連我們查到他修改規則的兩千多件我相信你有一些是需要修改相關的法制但是就這樣的結果你有沒有想過"},{"start":5489.926,"end":5518.865,"text":"如何去改變外在說你高高舉起輕輕放下的這一種常態性的這種狀況你有沒有想說你新任的這個未來的六年的這個省紀長的角色當中有沒有可能改善本席要問你的重點是這個這個我們會照委員的意思來改善好 要做 我看你要怎麼做另外一個部分還有一個部分就是變成是抓小放大跟基層在受罰"},{"start":5520.256,"end":5524.386,"text":"政治責任是誰做的為什麼最後繼承我講具體的意思啊"},{"start":5525.305,"end":5552.947,"text":"譬如講你從這個113年決算比較嚴重的財務上的為師移送監察院跟司法偵辦的類型來看一共幾件 七件中央一件 就是警政署的採購案地方六件 三件文書登載不實涉案的有村長 縣府跟公所人員還有一件是大學的詐領案這不是抓小放大嗎"},{"start":5554.573,"end":5561.109,"text":"就是專門看起來都是小件事情啊你看還有一件雲林我國中荷霄不死都是三七成人員啊"},{"start":5562.503,"end":5587.662,"text":"因為金額都不高啊都是被你地方審計單位移送的啦你移送的就是這些啦我們大一半小一半不能二小我不為什麼大一半小一半所以我現在用數位審計啊那個微標我一查查到兩千多件啊那個刑事處啊那個沒有罰款的有一億六千多萬啊我講的這些"},{"start":5589.403,"end":5606.454,"text":"市長 你剛有講到小的沒有講到大的你未來的數位審計是未來啦我現在跟你談的是現實啊你寫的報告當中我幫你整理出來啦好 照我們會注意就只有抓小放大嘛不會放大我們對大的更會注意"},{"start":5610.416,"end":5638.054,"text":"好 更大會注意好我來看你怎麼注意好不好你說剛剛我現在不諱言我們就說救援基金在來黨一直追打救援基金我就談救援基金的事情就好先容的這個救援基金當中你們當初事情爆發之後你才發現1010 110年到113年有5000多萬跟基金用途的關聯性不大對不對但是呢"},{"start":5639.396,"end":5645.111,"text":"100年到112年的決算審計報告當中你裡頭都沒有提到基金內控失靈的問題啊"},{"start":5646.892,"end":5669.909,"text":"你都沒有提到管理風險的問題啊你就注重這個計畫的執行面的審計而已啊才會導致後面問題越來越大條啊審計功能不彰的結果就會讓問題越來越嚴重啊這裡沒有責任嗎這個就是什麼 沈議長這是本席剛剛跟你討論的抓小放大的結果啦"},{"start":5671.184,"end":5680.867,"text":"怎麼改善 怎麼面對你用規則給人力了這是大小的問題啦不是人力的問題啦這是心態的問題啦你用AI就可以解決這些問題你用AI就可以查到這些問題你不要一直推給"},{"start":5698.351,"end":5726.73,"text":"未來的事情你要先面對過去的錯誤才能考慮到未來的解方這是面對過去的錯誤發現要這樣做這都具體的事情你要怎麼解決這個抓小放大好你剛剛講說什麼你的目標是大一半小一半是不是我們通抓通通大一半小一半只要有部分大小全部都抓我有財務紀律我們都等著看等著看你接下來報告怎麼樣好 那你就查一件你查一件給本席看好"},{"start":5728.359,"end":5738.045,"text":"我給你看一件本席 雷聲大雨點小審計部真的是作文比賽這個作文題目是什麼 台中大理垃圾山"},{"start":5742.921,"end":5764.195,"text":"34萬噸的垃圾它需要17年才可以清理完成7月份台中審計處的時候已經介入事業費不減反增清潔隊弊案連連你去發現問題 你要追查到底你就這個例子 你去查百億的大弊案焚化爐經費從31億增加到85億"},{"start":5768.854,"end":5790.99,"text":"你17年要花多少錢要花37億才能清運這個垃圾山你們也查到問題喔你們不是沒有查喔你有查到問題喔一 預算暴增50幾億審計部寫的二 清潔對難上百次偏離路線違法收運事業費器物"},{"start":5795.322,"end":5815.518,"text":"還有三 市府把一般垃圾丟大裡卻用低於價格幫廠商燒事業廢棄物 圖利數千萬這問題你有沒有發現 還不少這問題是不是你們寫的這是我們台中審計處查的台中寫的當你們發現問題的時候你們發現問題 你知道你台中怎麼寫嗎"},{"start":5822.113,"end":5839.656,"text":"你怎麼寫 問題也不少耶你們最後想說 你們也覺得看起來內情不太單純但最後你們叫什麼叫台中市政府檢討叫台中市政府檢討而已耶欸 沈議長 百億耶這事情是大條還是小條 我就問你嘛"},{"start":5841.155,"end":5867.521,"text":"你這個AI查到了你們心態是這麼講嘛你用AI可以解決這個問題嗎台中市的垃圾是有一點隱憂啦你用AI可以解決這個問題你剛剛不是說用AI要處理嗎你的AI審計可以處理這個問題嗎你這個沒有AI你都查到了啊你查到結果你叫市政府檢討100億的幣啊你用市政府檢討這AI可以解決的嗎 審計長我請問你這個是用人工查的用科技用人工查的什麼"},{"start":5868.521,"end":5894.515,"text":"這不是用AI查的不是用AI查的 用人工就查了啊可是那最後寫的是叫你市政府檢討而已啊這一番啦 他一定要檢討啦那要檢討 那知道這個案子怎麼樣嗎我們看到問題 一定先找機關說你要趕快解決喔對啊 你就是這樣子而已啊那你不是可以直接移送嗎然後你再看看 最後的結果是怎樣幾位清潔人員被判刑"},{"start":5896.152,"end":5918.626,"text":"台市這麼大條 整百億的弊案發生在台中期發生在這噴色沙 結果你叫人檢討而已社會到高台會過 你心機不好你在做行刑內部監督這個案子累積了多少年從35億變85億 足足增加50幾億 共要300多億"},{"start":5921.909,"end":5949.334,"text":"花十七年的時間才能清允的垃圾山要再花工廠三十七億組長你不覺得這個案子大不大我問你嘛你後續要怎麼處理嘛這麼大的案子你要一個建樹建林啦你要直接找檢調 找廉政署查清楚寫那麼多報告有什麼用問題你都發現啊怎麼解決這不是高高舉起輕輕放下就是廉政大於廉小嘛 對不對"},{"start":5950.489,"end":5979.944,"text":"未來六年你是個角色我們會注意我們會注意這樣的一個事情再檢討一次嗎好好檢討 再檢討 繼續檢討有什麼特別的處理方式嘛 你就講啊我們還要整個了解因為這是在台中市審計處的報告寫那麼久了 你還要進行了解你要怎麼處理嘛 你現在想嘛你要怎麼處理嘛 怎麼了解"},{"start":5981.565,"end":6008.094,"text":"了解有什麼用 了解問題有什麼用要解決問題才有用啊你就是過去一直停留在了解的階段問題才會越來越大啦 沈議長這個公開打你們臉欸你審計完全沒有發揮效果 你知道嗎好 看地方出現這麼多問題沈議長 我再講給你聽最近的財政收支法 新法的財政收支法接下來是考驗審計部跟地方的審計人員怎麼說"},{"start":6010.626,"end":6029.847,"text":"你想 我們現在的財政收支劃分法通過新的版本之後按照目前的狀況 我先講給你聽你現在查到很多的地方問題地方的執行能力就出現了一個很大的問題我舉一個例子 113年的時候地方的這個決算剩餘款是716億"},{"start":6032.304,"end":6041.072,"text":"但是實質上 地方當初的政府預算短差是553億 簡單的講這一來一回當中就有1269億 這1269億沒有辦法去執行這是第一個問題 因為你人員不變就這樣子 1269億 到接下來"},{"start":6057.782,"end":6085.293,"text":"整個財政收支發放法之後呢地方上會多拿多少多拿4165億啦你看這4165億再加上1269億它以前短差553億都沒有辦法執行喔有那麼多錢都沒有辦法執行的情況底下人員不變的情況底下又多了4160多億你的角色就是避免浪費公帑啊你的角色就是匡正財政機率啊對不對"},{"start":6086.66,"end":6099.029,"text":"這是不是挑戰來了這整個問題是垂直分配出問題水平分配又出問題的情況底下以後地方政府有錢有錢的要死 窮窮的要命"},{"start":6102.086,"end":6123.192,"text":"沈議長 你有沒有想過這個問題接下來要怎麼辦 怎麼面對這一個行政院已經在邀集各地方政府來行政院的事情 我在問你的事情如果行政院沒有修法的話怎麼辦你不要推給行政院剛剛講的有一些分配不出去財政部有這樣的一個說明"},{"start":6124.392,"end":6151.901,"text":"對整個的我們的財政的效益是有損失的你不要再跟我繞圈子了我知道你在跑運動圈我不想追你了目前的編制 預算的規模中央跟地方的市權都沒有調整是多了四一六五億以後市權如果再下放的話你這麼多人員沒有增加的話我看你怎麼執行你後來就會變成什麼你知道嗎 我跟你預言"},{"start":6152.745,"end":6163.866,"text":"就發紅包啦 大傻逼啦這種是最直接了當的啦這也最有可能浪費公帑啦沈議長 本席提醒你啦你到底有沒有去面對這個問題你到底有沒有想過這個問題我現在就要問你這個問題啦"},{"start":6165.905,"end":6172.692,"text":"我是希望你提早預知可能在既有體制下的問題但是你可能是相對的角色你要怎麼面對這可能衍生出來問題審計人員要如何增加人量"},{"start":6191.169,"end":6214.849,"text":"你了解我意思嗎 所以我再跟你提醒一點相對是這種問題的話 你要去思考本席提醒你 問你的問題就是要去思考未來的六年的省計長有不一樣的角色要面臨挑戰但是你要面臨未來六年之前 你要思考以前的六年以前的六年的地方預算 你要自己好好的思考如何去進行一個總檢討"},{"start":6216.492,"end":6234.885,"text":"還有你要去思考新版的財法法可能帶來的什麼樣的衝擊那我希望你在這個情況底下站在你審計單位當中來思考這個財政收支法可能造成的衝擊你要寫一份專案報告有沒有可能 沈院長有"},{"start":6236.545,"end":6261.741,"text":"可以用這份報告來思考過去六年到底地方政府的財政或中央政府財政你也可以寫啦到底出了什麼樣的問題啦這一部新版的財政收支發問法之後可能在體制上出什麼問題而你的審計部的角色地方審計處人員的角色要怎麼因應你應該要提早有所因應那這個報告你什麼時候寫給本席兩個月"},{"start":6266.736,"end":6280.267,"text":"你如果提早寫出來的話有助於大家離去共識啦可以嗎可以45天可以嗎45天 好好 謝謝好 謝謝郭國文委員的詢問也謝謝備題名人陳神記長"},{"start":6291.351,"end":6293.613,"text":"謝謝主席韓院長以及各位先進有請我們沈記長請沈記長"},{"start":6323.835,"end":6348.494,"text":"委員好 審計長你好我還是稱你審計長因為你現任就是審計長因為你在審計部的報告裡面有廠長去找出來現在政府施政的一些問題所以執政黨立委對你非常不友善"},{"start":6349.679,"end":6376.136,"text":"所以你被提名了 續任了老實講 英文叫做To my surprise我有一點詫異你自己感覺怎麼樣賴總統在提名你的時候你心裡是什麼心理我因為想休息了所以沒有續任的打算"},{"start":6377.09,"end":6402.682,"text":"原來沒有許願打算因為有替國家做一點事情已滿足所以是有點驚喜深感還是有責任但是在審計部他有他審計的價值他可以為國家為人民做一點事所以你是驚喜"},{"start":6405.616,"end":6432.283,"text":"驚喜不夠於不一定就很難形容驚訝不太像驚訝也不太說歡喜就是好像責任還沒有那個擔子還沒有卸下來我是有點驚訝因為在譬如說疫苗的事情 雞蛋的事情你們的單位很敢提出一些數字很好"},{"start":6435.367,"end":6461.892,"text":"但是後來也沒有很驚訝因為你也是高高舉舉輕輕放下你的用事請辭也都是四平八穩也不太敢去得罪黨黨變成這樣了我們來看喔我們來看比如說最大條的事情最該你應該去auditing的就是卓榮泰院長他怎麼可以不依法行政"},{"start":6463.28,"end":6489.567,"text":"立法院我們韓院長這麼辛苦在主持垂直一敲三讀通過的法案他為什麼可以不編預算去年的總預算已經這樣編了已經這樣編了 禁法補償不列今年警察人員的待遇條例警校的一個他的退休的提高特別是軍人"},{"start":6492.025,"end":6501.693,"text":"每個月多三萬塊的經營條例他不變審計部就應該講話啦這個還在立法院的預算審議前請問你 你有沒有事情審議"},{"start":6508.922,"end":6537.38,"text":"我們沒有事前審議的失蹤審議沒有失蹤審議因為這個還在還沒有經過大案通過大案通過我們以後有會議警會那個這個還在大案的 這個是尊重大案的審議前我就問你 今年的預算114年他不按照不依法編列進場補償進場補償 你要怎麼辦這個部分 已經事後了"},{"start":6538.751,"end":6562.267,"text":"這個部分 大院有意見 他已經追加預算了追加預算 把你砍掉以後再追加 還是砍掉啦他好像追加預算有進化補償喔對不對 還是砍掉啦所以我的意思是說 你都沒有角色啊我不能跳來最前面 因為這個是憲法體制所以是什麼 這個叫做違法"},{"start":6563.833,"end":6587.313,"text":"違背憲法 違背預算法這個是立法案編 行政院在編的時候可能要稍微注意到這個法律上的一個規定啦不然我老實請問你嘛 他這樣編有沒有違反預算法預算法寫得很清楚嗎 三組通過的法案你就要編預算了他是行政院怎麼思考的 我不太了解"},{"start":6588.201,"end":6611.757,"text":"對嘛 所以就你會被提名這些事情你就很體貼嘛 表面上說歐法的手藝這樣噴 你說歐法的手藝 咿咿咿你會做人 老實講是這樣啦齁 這個東西 唉唷 你一看那個數字 喔 這個執政黨的立委覺得你沒那麼細喔執政黨的立委跟你沒那麼細 在野黨的立委就會疼惜你這不是你厲害的地方咧"},{"start":6615.019,"end":6632.243,"text":"這個我們都是依法行政依照我的主責來做任何事情行政院亂砍終結預算 北截預算北截預算砍了650億 終結砍了96%這個東西你要不要升級一下"},{"start":6639.468,"end":6661.996,"text":"這個還在他那個補助款還沒有補助辦法還沒有送到大安備查大安要不要備查 大安備查以後我們就會注意這個事情我們來看現在我們都知道中央政府給地方的錢三部分"},{"start":6663.106,"end":6675.494,"text":"第一大部分就是統籌分配支付款第二 一般補助款第三 計劃型補助款請問你一般補助款是不是法定義務是不是"},{"start":6676.88,"end":6703.039,"text":"是不是你告訴我在總預算案裡面是列為在那個法定支出的表裡面是列一般性的它是法定義務支出喔它有這樣列 那個憲法也有稍微現在一直講說財化法有什麼窮者越窮富者越富這個叫因為你把這三個加起來才能算 我們就算一個東西來我們來看下一頁"},{"start":6704.616,"end":6727.612,"text":"我把這三個東西算進來台北市 台北市最多錢多了450億台北市112年度把這個全部加進來 補助的收入加進來全部加進來 台北市第三名113年第4名 114年第5名台北市那裡有最多"},{"start":6729.155,"end":6750.449,"text":"你要一起看啦你不能見數不見齡你不能只看所謂統籌分別稅款還有一般補助款還有計畫性補助款這個所以喔這個錢喔 老實講執政黨不必在那裡說裝窮啊根本手上都在執政黨手上因為台下就很清楚啊左手給你錢 右手把錢拿回來"},{"start":6752.944,"end":6774.933,"text":"所以這個觀念那個集錢的觀念錢都放在中央的口袋修修都不變到現在為止都不變這個事情老實講讓這個整個來講就這樣這個這只是才化法修法只有離島一小部分然後行政院"},{"start":6777.395,"end":6792.761,"text":"小題大作 魚目混珠 混水摸魚所以要重新來修這個長髮你知道要怎麼去嗎這個 老實講這個你應該記錄你們審計部都沒有小事你就看立法院的行政在那裡你都沒有小事 你都不講話"},{"start":6797.622,"end":6824.898,"text":"這個財化法是要中央要謀全國經濟平衡發展啊餅就這麼大所以中央啊地方要做下來大家好好的把做到大家都能夠兼顧到每一個縣市每一個啊你的角色勒你的角色勒請問審計部的角色勒因為這個還在我都在講這個都一些法律規定都還在大院的身上"},{"start":6826.775,"end":6855.674,"text":"什麼意思我聽不懂就是說補助辦法好像送到他在行政院好像有送來大院來看因為要經過大院被查他現在就這樣子所以逼著我我已經提案了補助辦法現在行政院命令我們要提高位階叫補助條例變成法律案好的你的補助就一定依法不可以隨便補助現在就是完全是中央政府高興的多給你一點不高興的少給你一點"},{"start":6857.233,"end":6882.249,"text":"看顏色在補助的中央有他全國移住的事情像國防、外交、珠珊、黃紅這些中央也有他要做的事情我們原來是中央地方的錢的分配75對25現在財務法通過以後按照行政院的編法只剩66但是我們目標希望60"},{"start":6883.69,"end":6900.842,"text":"中央應該變60不是66所以中央還只想抓在手上還有抓補助款所以說起來中央是很有錢的所以錢和市要稍微大家談一下中央和地方談一下錢跟市要一起"},{"start":6901.983,"end":6926.704,"text":"是錢給地方 事情給地方 這個沒有人反對但是你不能夠說因為我錢給你的 我一般補助還不夠回來不可以這樣子啦因為我們地方住也執行很久了所以大概大家可以接下來談一下那個沈機長你沒有聽出我的我的重點在於你什麼都敢申請你對行政院不申請"},{"start":6927.808,"end":6955.579,"text":"行政院 這個你答應我是根據答案通過的法例根據答案通過的決議我來做答案通過的預算我來做監督預算執行我是根據答案的一些你告訴我你針對行政院做過哪一次的審計去批評他哪一件你告訴我一件就好 一件行政院一件"},{"start":6956.394,"end":6976.888,"text":"他的那個正義先導我有通知他說那個行政院正義先導還有什麼這個我跟你講因為行政院的金額不大我要抓的時候是看有時候金額很大他那個我是用電腦在跑如果違反規定我們會教他我要跟你講的是114年的總預算"},{"start":6985.007,"end":7013.264,"text":"鬧的這個樣子他不議法編列我們退回我現在就跟你預告他如果就這樣送過來沒有編軍人的三萬塊的加薪的兩百多億我們一樣退回故事重演故事重演沒有這個時候114年已經遠過了你就要審計我重點一直在放在這個地方就是大的事情這麼大的事情你跟我講文學會那個很小的事情大的事情"},{"start":7014.909,"end":7042.827,"text":"他不依法編列已經發生過一年了去年後來他追加預算這時候你要介入你都沒有介入你不敢介入最後我們審計不介入在行政院在行政院或者立法院還在處理的過程中這個我們都尊重行政院的預算編注錢還有尊重大案的審議權請問你會期待六年以後"},{"start":7044.799,"end":7051.531,"text":"總統在提名你當升級長嗎我就大概沒有這種期待沒有這種期待沒有這種期待你就放膽"},{"start":7053.598,"end":7079.987,"text":"我跟你講N次了 省區長這支大刀你從我上一次提名的時候你就這樣講 一直督促我你督促我 建議我很多總結一下那個查核平台就是你建議的現在效果很好耶 20幾萬人這個謝謝啦 我的建議都聽了但是我要說這支刀要去撲"},{"start":7081.247,"end":7101.286,"text":"行政院長你怎麼講啊我變了啦 做任何事情還是順眾還是依法行政好啦 來 我就講審計部啊 我在看下一頁你真的為什麼我們這麼多委員會想支持你啊你老公做人咧我講什麼你都說好啊好啊然後你都留一手"},{"start":7102.415,"end":7126.898,"text":"你都留一手 留一手什麼 你做好人比如說 就業安定基金7000多億喔7200多億嘛7000多萬了對不起 7000多萬這個 你呢 只有減劣收回為什麼不剔除 不一樣喔減劣跟剔除不一樣喔你減劣 所以他今天又變成2億回來啦"},{"start":7127.975,"end":7155.322,"text":"七千多萬變成了 欸 納稅人的錢讓那個許民春開演唱會讓謝宜龍去一間酒店睡睡睡這些錢都是老百姓買單結果你把他什麼 把他檢列 你看 我有做喔 咱那時候說嗯 不錯 咱那時候說啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵"},{"start":7156.357,"end":7182.267,"text":"我檢列 我六年來檢列一千四百多億目前已經繳扣了兩三百億你檢列有些要剔除 這個要剔除這個用在私人的身上那個法院在做判決 那個已經送書法了也送檢查了 這個部分我們都做了"},{"start":7184.188,"end":7202.51,"text":"我們也在看 要求勞動部好好的查明這個到底在你勞動部是屬於你我問你 你又回答問題了你為什麼不敢用剔除因為剔除啊 剔除要很明確但是這個救護罰 明確嗎許明春開演唱會不明確嗎"},{"start":7204.599,"end":7233.411,"text":"他這個救護法他是用勞工性平他是有關這樣的一個情形所以這個救護法我們用就業服務法請勞動部查明這個我們已經進到勞動部我們問了他一下他今年沒有編那麼多沒有編沒有編要補回去他還在查編兩億補回去沒有"},{"start":7234.409,"end":7240.245,"text":"沒有 所以委員剛剛講的那個勞動部給我給我們的收名那這筆錢被我花掉了七千多萬怎麼辦"},{"start":7243.62,"end":7265.967,"text":"他要好好查明以後 如果公務的如果是公務的 要經過行政院編列 答應審理通過如果是適用的法官會判 他末日所得那末日所得 那個勞動部要去領回啊 要去請求啊法院判是根據你"},{"start":7267.202,"end":7291.572,"text":"如果你直接給他剔除法院判就不一樣了他就要求他賠你因為沒有經過法院判決我們做任何事情依法行政還要很明確的一些規定你用錢類不用剔除就是老祖國我們大部分就是因為不跟你扯這個來人員政策我也要講這個"},{"start":7293.895,"end":7305.685,"text":"這個你幾乎也不敢批評錯誤的人權政策你也不敢批評來 我們看離岸風電都要發展因為我們要求local content"},{"start":7306.966,"end":7332.6,"text":"國產的要自製要多少30%過去有要求所以我們賺夠的電價超過國際4.3塊一度4.3塊20年來我們台電增加的購電成本9100億光電大家都知道光電等於另外一個字四個字叫官商勾結光電的成本平均高於國際一度3塊錢我們現在來看"},{"start":7337.113,"end":7357.762,"text":"光電跟風電加起來也幾個%而已啊為什麼不用便宜的而且這麼貴現在備轉容量最近這幾天備轉容量只有3.8%到曲燈 曲燈下來就是紅燈紅燈下來就黑燈就不燈了這麼嚴重的事情我們沒有看到你省下一步"},{"start":7358.642,"end":7366.945,"text":"這件事情 你們稍稍審計一下我們有審計你要這樣的話離岸風電我們有處理過有一些蓋在那個飛行服務區的我們說這不行 這影響飛安"},{"start":7374.308,"end":7390.582,"text":"他要處理掉光電我們查到那個彰化那個是有一點一點差不多要到我們也要他移送夥伴那個台南的那個光電我們也有查所以大概如果我們發現我們損失發現我們一定作為"},{"start":7393.524,"end":7407.675,"text":"我現在是跟你講這個是我跟你我一直在強調的就是你現在都在比較技術面去認真你們的人去認真很好可以但是大方向你不敢碰你對行政院不敢碰"},{"start":7408.925,"end":7431.463,"text":"我就告訴你 我現在對你的期待因為你幾可能會過的你幾可能會過的那我就對你期待你應該不必想未來的六年你這次六年已經surprise了所以請你那個大刀準備向行政院 運動部的一些的政策"},{"start":7432.33,"end":7459.54,"text":"人員政策是錯的人員政策是錯的你都不敢批評你連講都不敢講我們有提過很多意見你沒有提過像現在台電的備載容量不夠備載容量有問題他的備用容量有問題我們通通都請他要注意你有沒有講過他的人員政策錯誤有沒有講這句話"},{"start":7461.294,"end":7476.656,"text":"沒有啊那個能源政策 那是政策政策我們要尊重你的前一任的審計長林青龍因為我行政院一般審計部沒有到那個我是根據政策來審計"},{"start":7479.684,"end":7502.2,"text":"我跟你講 你的前一任審計長叫林慶榮他就敢講 你就不敢講這也是你會做官的地方最後一項 你有時間不多了你知道我們現在對美關稅談判軍售商售 你知道吧我們現在第一個我們有200億美金的錢都付了東西都沒有來你要不要吹一下"},{"start":7502.813,"end":7528.12,"text":"有 這我們查過了是三千多億有一些萬了我們有的先互去的他要做實踐我們刪掉他第二個 我現在時間已經到了能不能要求我們的盡量要改為商售因為算在貿易逆差裡面有利於關稅談判可不可以這個是很大的事情可能要好好的國安部好好檢討"},{"start":7537.909,"end":7548.881,"text":"好 谢谢赖世宝委员的询问也谢谢被提名人陈神机长谢谢我们现在休息十分钟之后中嘉宾委员请准备询问现在休息"},{"start":8133.342,"end":8142.29,"text":"好 報告全院委員會我們現在繼續開會進行委員的詢問接下來我們請宗嘉斌委員詢問林德福委員請準備"},{"start":8156.363,"end":8178.055,"text":"好 主席在場委員先進列席的政務機關所長官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體集團女士先生有請我們陳審計長被提名麻煩再請被提名的陳審計長總委好審計長好稱呼您審計長因為您現在就是審計長對不對對審計長"},{"start":8180.598,"end":8207.452,"text":"過去你有沒有聽過 時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變有沒有聽過這句話有誰說的誰說的我倒不知道我知道現在極端氣候讓整個都變了連總統蔣經國先生說的蔣經國先生說的但是通常人家會說 有所變 有所不變請問一下 將近四年前我們的省紀長被提名的人有沒有改變沒有嗎 還是你嘛對不對 那我們來看一下"},{"start":8208.154,"end":8225.597,"text":"那如果人選沒有改變我們看審計法有沒有改變有財務審計有績效審計是不是跟以前一樣如果說人沒有改變法律的制度沒有改變那是什麼改變我們審計今天要重新來對您的"},{"start":8226.434,"end":8250.44,"text":"任命進行同意權的行使我們不禁要問要問有改變的地方對不對對人家說財政是恕政之母你同意嗎同意好那麼因此就你審計的角度來講審計部的權責審計長的最重要的功能就是對於財政來進行審計政府的財政政府的預算政府的財政擁擠政府的財政當是現在人來看"},{"start":8253.959,"end":8279.278,"text":"新版的財劃法它是我們最主要的改變對不對變化可能會很大今年變化還蠻大的那你對財劃法了解嗎有所了解我們財劃法分成統籌分配稅款對不對一般型補助計劃型補助是不是這樣子那麼新版的財劃法它有哪些改變是不是在中央跟地方我先問你統籌分配稅是哪三個稅"},{"start":8284.198,"end":8304.363,"text":"所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅有沒有改變?沒有改變嗎?改變的是中央分配給地方的%就更多了嘛所以地方得到統籌分配就增加了嘛那請問中央跟地方的垂直分配改變了但是地方的水平分配根據什麼來分配?"},{"start":8305.416,"end":8329.953,"text":"根據本來財劃法是應該要跟財政貢獻度嘛新法是這樣但是要法的主要立場是在基本國策沒有錯但是基本上因為這三種稅六都跟非都來看是不是他們的財政貢獻度六都比非六都來的大"},{"start":8330.543,"end":8358.223,"text":"因為營業稅啊 所得稅啊 貨物稅啊你人多 錢就多 稅就多分配回去也是更多結果這麼一來我們將中央給地方的統統分配增加之後有沒有改善地方水平分配的貧富不均這個可能要好好坐下來談因為呢 規模擴大但是分配的公式以貢獻度來看只是把貧富的差距拉大而已我們再往下看那麼一般性補助款用在哪裡"},{"start":8360.592,"end":8383.102,"text":"一般是補助團在調制財政營息包括了教育 社福 基本設施還有其他的基本支出對不對經常性 普遍性 基本建設還有維運的性質對不對但是很重要的要能財政均衡 請問一下100公斤的人跟50公斤的人誰的飯量比較大"},{"start":8385.192,"end":8400.366,"text":"100公斤所以六都來講他人口多他的基本需求多所以他獲得分配的一般補助一定比其他人口較少的縣市非六都來的多對不對但是中央怎麼樣均衡中央只有用財力的分配"},{"start":8401.474,"end":8420.509,"text":"中央對你地方需求多的我要給你多你需求較少的就給的少頂多是A六都的財力比較不足我給你的比例比較高可以給到九成如果是六都的你的財力比較好雖然你的需求大我給你的比例就沒有達到九成比較少可能七成是不是這樣"},{"start":8421.65,"end":8445.925,"text":"但是中央政府只能在一般性補助款透過這樣的小小的方式去調節但基本上一般性補助還是根據你六都跟非都的人口規模來設算所以六都當然一般性補助領的多非都的領的少 是不是這樣那我們來看最後還剩一個叫計劃型補助如果照這樣子負者橫負"},{"start":8446.914,"end":8463.467,"text":"平者欲平那我們怎麼樣去改變這些經濟發展甚至人口較少的非都怎麼提升提升他的財政的貢獻能力我們常說受人以魚不如受人以魚給你一尾魚不如給你一根釣竿你同意吧"},{"start":8464.187,"end":8479.944,"text":"所以計劃型補助是不是說如果你這些財政能力較差的縣市你提出好的計劃型那我中央給你幫助你提升讓你未來的財政改善這是不是中央最重要的調節地方均衡發展的一個手段"},{"start":8481.644,"end":8504.371,"text":"就像說我們對於有錢人家他不需要太多的支持窮人家的小孩你幫助他上進念書他以後出了社會他可以改善他家庭的生活經濟這就是我們的目的請問現在我們目前的新版財化法有沒有辦法擴大中央用計劃型補助來均衡地方發展的這個目標"},{"start":8506.414,"end":8528.581,"text":"因為計劃性已經看起來因為他的餅這麼大他沒辦法因為就減少很多所以就應該是比較難所以我們看到這個圖統籌分配稅款根據你的財政貢獻度這裡面六都比非都來得強我們再來看一般型補助款"},{"start":8529.631,"end":8552.558,"text":"飯量大的吃的比飯量少的來的多中央能夠幫助有限最主要能夠調節台灣各縣市的均衡發展就是計劃性補助結果我們新版的財富法雖然從中央拿九兆的稅款給地方但是是擴大了都跟非都的差距然後中央給地方的一般性補助又不能縮小還是一樣都比非都拿的多"},{"start":8553.243,"end":8577.238,"text":"最後非督得以翻身的計劃型補助中央變少了是不是這樣子那我們怎麼辦來我舉個例子那現在我們來看一下中央給地方多了4165億的統籌分配稅款不管水平怎麼分請問地方政府的市權有沒有增加這次才話沒談到沒有談到簡單講就像我們辦個團散"},{"start":8579.332,"end":8579.852,"text":"那我來請教一下 我們常常說"},{"start":8608.564,"end":8618.074,"text":"有錢花跟盡量花這是我們最受歡迎的兩種花你知道還有第三種花嗎叫做拚命花"},{"start":8619.306,"end":8643.504,"text":"現在台北市政府本來財政就比較好這是財化法下去的結果他又多了四五百億請問一下 你的審計單位有同時增加對台北市政府多了這麼多錢他不只是有錢花 他不只是盡量花他還拼命花那事情沒成功 錢變多了會產生什麼問題 亂開嘛那審計是不是要防止地方政府亂開這是我們的主軸"},{"start":8647.369,"end":8670.398,"text":"那請問一下 那麼我說時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變但是審計廠沒有變 審計法沒有變但是地方都的財源變多了 事情沒有增加請問審計部要不要對這些地方未來多了那麼多錢 怎麼花 要嚴加審計是不是對那你們有增加人手嗎沒有沒有 那怎麼辦"},{"start":8671.889,"end":8698.158,"text":"我現在是用科技AI 數位這樣來做也要地方這樣來做如果必要的時候我們會請證人我們來看一下這是你113年的審計報告他說直轄市跟縣市政府有計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況管理作業欠當 是不是這樣子"},{"start":8698.958,"end":8714.132,"text":"有這樣的現象我們事前分配地方的事情沒有增加執行的量沒有增加你的審計能力沒有增加就給他更多的錢那你覺得你要怎麼樣在新版參考法之下做好你對地方政府的審計"},{"start":8715.188,"end":8739.637,"text":"我們還是會盡到我們的主軸啦但是這是我們的審計的主要主軸這個我們會再來加強這個監督的力道所以如果市權隨著財源來移轉到地方政府譬如說本來學校的電費是中央補助現在地方政府錢多了電費自己出對你們審計作為來講是不是比較合理"},{"start":8741.829,"end":8764.847,"text":"我們是準備 像這個部分我們要進行聯合審計 科技審計那我們再來問一下 之前我請教過你屏東縣的自來水普及率 電底 全國是95%台北市是99.83% 屏東只有41%那時候我跟你請教這個普及率問題呢屏東為22個縣是排最後面的"},{"start":8765.387,"end":8794.398,"text":"所以我就請教你來看上次您說到說相較其他縣市持續提高屏東縣的自來水普及的預算這個效益是最好的你是不是同意同意完全同意所以屏東特別需要中央多的資源來協助提高它的自來水的改善讓人民的生活品質提高對不對對那我先問你這次財務法公布之後有九個縣市貨配的補助更少了有沒有屏東是不是其中之一"},{"start":8796.369,"end":8816.736,"text":"他是行政院有出來答應說不會低於114那是行政院的說法那請問這個錯誤怎麼發生的我們看一下這個是低級錯誤啊財發法16條之一在場提出的法案本島19縣市跟離島3縣市通通以22個做分母結果呢"},{"start":8817.645,"end":8824.893,"text":"本島的部分有0.2%無法分配離島的部分有高達99.8%無法分配你覺得這個錯誤是不是很可笑"},{"start":8828.084,"end":8853.958,"text":"這個立法上有稍微沒有注意到好 那如果說全國像屏東縣需要中央大力支持自來水普及的中央的錢變少了 跑到其他的有錢的都去了那請問我要問你 在這個財化法就算這個錯誤公式修改之後你覺得改過之後的財化法對於我們目前無自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期有沒有受到影響"},{"start":8855.103,"end":8879.719,"text":"中央還有錢做嗎這個前瞻第五期啊前瞻第五期最近通過他大概是無知來水的這一個部分大概有一百多億我是希望能夠幫忙屏東因為屏東啊那要中央有錢啊中央沒有錢怎麼幫忙屏東因為那個預算已經過了那個經濟部這106億啊前瞻已經過了你說106億地方要不要配合款"},{"start":8884.66,"end":8903.589,"text":"地方大概都一般都要有配合款結果我們屏東在財化修改之後我們貨配額數少於修法之前就算中央的錢沒有減少我們地方的能力變少了我們的沿管工程怎麼做我們戶外用戶的外線工程怎麼做你覺得有什麼辦法"},{"start":8904.943,"end":8918.815,"text":"如果未來屏東自來水改善不理想你省紀部要不要來糾正屏東縣政府還是要糾正經濟部這個我們因為是這樣因為自來水地區的改善屬於自來水公司我們會去糾正"},{"start":8920.856,"end":8941.991,"text":"經濟部住來水 住來水公司但是巧合難為無米之炊我們錢變少了 我們怎麼樣來如期完成我們希望 因為屏東是低的我看 當時委員執行我的時候我看那個比例 其實那個比例經過了一年 增加不大那是以前有錢 明年開始沒有錢"},{"start":8942.991,"end":8970.7,"text":"所以我是希望這106億經濟部盡量用在屏東用鼓勵的基礎幫忙屏東這些人能夠去接管謝謝啦 沈局長 感謝你啦但是屏東縣被分配到的錢變少了就算經濟部繼續支持 全力支持我們的自備款 配合款還是不夠來 我們看下一題我們看到新聞報導說行政院要發津貼每一胎補足到10萬你覺得發津貼可以改善生育率嗎"},{"start":8971.727,"end":8995.338,"text":"就是因為我們少數化是一個國安問題啦是蠻低的各種多元方式都要嘗試這是一種嘗試的方式我們非常因為我們審計的時候我審計了他四年他終於有提出說要一個花十萬啦我認為我跟你講你們自己審計部在2016年你們點名屏東33鄉鎮我們有鄉鎮做的一些生育補貼"},{"start":9000.18,"end":9029.033,"text":"第四胎甚至大方送到10萬結果呢 屏東一樣人口沒有增加甚至還繼續減少感覺上這樣的做法有沒有效果全國都有這樣的一個現象所以有婚禮宅也出來了有一個補助10萬也出來這時候 這都是我們當時查所提出的建議你們建議 建議10萬嗎還是說養一個小孩 統計要668萬要多元來處理這些事多元 來我們看一下 學者有研究過"},{"start":9030.097,"end":9055.498,"text":"中央研究院的基地所的研究員說啊2023年如果獲得分配100萬以上再往後的6年生育率呢會提高到多了0.07啊不要說10萬啦 給你100萬喔你幾乎生不了0.01啦但是如果給你1000萬的話呢每100個家庭就會多25個小孩好一點 你覺得政府有可能給生小孩的家庭每一個多1000萬嗎"},{"start":9056.567,"end":9071.103,"text":"我對政府的財政衝擊很大所以要多元方式所以說我請問一下低生育率問題不是要不要生沒有結婚要怎麼生"},{"start":9072.066,"end":9086.481,"text":"所以就有學者說啊低生育率的關鍵密碼不是不生小孩是不結婚啊那你覺得如果我們結婚每一個人第一次結婚政府給他送五十萬的大紅包你覺得怎麼樣 有機會嗎會因為這樣來結婚嗎這個是一種"},{"start":9091.006,"end":9107.263,"text":"謝謝委員 我們的看法和你一樣因為我們台灣的主女大部分都是婚生主女96%都婚生主女所以結婚是很重要的與其鼓勵生育不如鼓勵結婚兩個都有鼓勵"},{"start":9110.046,"end":9136.147,"text":"你給我10萬 我記得要持到18歲對不對 但是我就不要結婚啊你如果給我50萬 我來結婚結的金錢 我自己來處理好 所以目前呢我們說啊結婚大禮包至少要50萬如果現在是出10萬啦是不是剛做回來剛好所以政府說你叫我們的產婦啊 你要做回來政府給你10萬再做回來你覺得民眾是不是感覺剛好 窩心"},{"start":9138.568,"end":9165.55,"text":"這個是 也是一種方式啦這個可以啊 雙管齊下雙管齊下 做回來 給你十萬塊做回來高利貸你盡量生好 那是國安問題啊產物的生活品質 好 我們繼續往下看那少子化的對策 你看一看0到6歲的國家養友善家庭的職場兒童健康的權益保障友善的生育配套從107到114審計報告覺得有沒有太"},{"start":9166.732,"end":9186.86,"text":"有沒有效果 有沒有建議有 剛剛委員講他這個因為花掉國家從107到114花掉7000多億所以我們都有損失所以包括委員講的我們說結婚也要鼓勵有人笑我說你這個老金好像來 那我再問一個話題有沒有聽過明月"},{"start":9190.267,"end":9211.778,"text":"有沒有聽過民怨來民怨幾十有八九問青天啊民怨何處來借問審計官為什麼民怨跟審計有關你知不知道我們以這次的風災好了啦我們現在呢往下看來你看這柱店整個的柱子破一天跟整個的現料料"},{"start":9212.625,"end":9239.378,"text":"我們站在政府的角度我們統計補助十萬啊破一坑的我們補助一千現在我們補助百分之百 補助十萬你覺得合理嗎這個要看政府的財政能力啦但是 最多就十萬而已嘛盡量 因為這些啊 都受災戶那盡量幫助他們那我跟你講 現在地方遇到的情況行政官員說 你如果破一坑我給你省省的面積一千十萬塊我再補助一萬"},{"start":9240.919,"end":9261.521,"text":"你要是破很多坑 面積超過八成 九成你要全部種完 我給你補走十萬但是請教一下 我出現破一坑 我全部種完政府可不可以補走我十萬 有沒有不合理我的房子這麼老舊了 雖然破了一個洞 面積未達五成我全部把它換新 你政府是不是要補走我百分之百 補走我十萬"},{"start":9263.256,"end":9282.115,"text":"這個部分 自宅的這個部分我們內政部或是營建室內政部的規定會受到你們審計人員在事後審計的影響如果說今天內政部說關台你破一坑或是轉沒現料料你叫轉沒煩心 你轉沒煩心報告委員 我們的審計是根據"},{"start":9285.846,"end":9308.431,"text":"那個 內政部或者國土署提出來的計畫來審計但是他的計畫會受到你們審計的思維影響我來講啦 減少民怨喔不要用我們政府的心血來輸課我一間40年的老廚就算我破了一天沒籌過三十年我全部中華我欠了五十四十萬我要求政府補助我 足夠補助 十萬有幾分嗎"},{"start":9309.611,"end":9336.796,"text":"所以說民怨怎麼來 審計人員的思維跟行政的思維要改變 我們來看一下現在的基層怎麼樣 多做多錯 寫報告跑法院其實我們來看一下 你們審計現在在追蹤啊說要出一條陷阱啊 那風太多了過呢 申請案走走風太已經過很久了 申請案走多了 這樣合理嗎這樣合理嗎 應該是風太多做人申請嘛 要越來越少 你覺得這樣哪一個合理"},{"start":9339.071,"end":9367.282,"text":"這個應該風太過 心情比較正常因為風太多了過 市議會都請不上工啊我就是想要還 我也找不上工所以聽到有工來做的時候 很多人就來請補助啊所以我要說的是說 審計的思維要改 往下看所以檢討監督級評論模式期望審計要體察民意不要用政府的採購的思維來要求人民配合政府的思維來爭取政府的補助 所以最後"},{"start":9367.842,"end":9376.729,"text":"最後 希望這三年的一個主張請我們沈記長回去好好研究再給本席一個回溫好不好 可以好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員的詢問也謝謝被提名人陳沈記長 謝謝"},{"start":9400.632,"end":9402.915,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請林德福委員請詢問李坤城委員請準備"},{"start":9428.537,"end":9445.091,"text":"海院長還有陳審計長是不是請陳審計長麻煩再請被提名的陳審計長林委員好陳審計長你好陳審計長我請教"},{"start":9448.235,"end":9470.793,"text":"有關於修憲相關的議題立法院目前有委員提出憲法增修條文提議要匯除監察院並將中華民國憲法中有關於監察院審計部的職權業務移至立法院並於立法院下設審計部還有審計權的遺留"},{"start":9476.168,"end":9477.57,"text":"立法院來行使"},{"start":9480.466,"end":9500.379,"text":"2026年九合一大選很有機會來合併舉行修憲複決的投票未來修憲結果攸關整個審計部組織的歸屬今天提名審查本席請問審計長您對上述的修憲議題對審計部未來定位的看法"},{"start":9509.287,"end":9527.318,"text":"提醒建立還是完全尊重未來立法院相關決議以未來公民修憲複決的投票的一個結果報告委員謝謝委員關心我們這個應該非常大的一個對我們審計非常大的影響的一個問題"},{"start":9531.836,"end":9556.238,"text":"依照國際最高那個審計機關 獨立能夠獨立性 審計的獨立性非常重要就是說法律要保障他 座位不受干預 資料取得不受限首長要任期 大概還有八大支柱 要我們這樣做那這個部分 我們如果"},{"start":9558.839,"end":9582.784,"text":"大宴有成立的修憲委員會如果考監如果有受到影響我們審計部也會受到影響我們審計部的立場就是還是要希望能夠維持超然獨立所長的任命要維持在憲法因為這個是最高審計機關希望"},{"start":9585.134,"end":9600.467,"text":"今天要是經過這個整個憲法遵修條文要是提議通過 你有什麼看法這個部分因為這個部分現在世界各國世界各國"},{"start":9601.585,"end":9625.925,"text":"剛剛講有在國會的 也有獨立的也有司法型的 也有行政型的差不多有四種大部分除了美國和英國以外大概都是在國會其他最主要的都是獨立因為獨立不受政治的干擾"},{"start":9627.626,"end":9643.623,"text":"那問題是過去現在的執政黨他們一直主張就是會監察院會考試院所以說才有人提出這樣的一個條文對不對那要是條文通過那沈記長你有什麼看法"},{"start":9644.468,"end":9664.238,"text":"我們是希望能夠比照世界各國的大部分的國家能夠獨立於三權之外這樣才能夠超然獨立本席認為強化審計功能能夠強化政府機關經費的有效應用"},{"start":9665.579,"end":9675.888,"text":"以促進政府整個財政的一個透明增進公共利益來提升政府財政效能來勘緊納稅人的荷包"},{"start":9677.162,"end":9701.924,"text":"那像AI人工智慧科技發展非常的迅速那本席也從媒體報導得知有審計官來導入AI人工智慧利用AI來查閉比對案件從中果然來發現有一些異常進而揪出不肖的廠商追回部分政府的預算"},{"start":9703.165,"end":9730.297,"text":"那審計部在115年預算打算推動AI審計資料中心的發展計畫那請陳審計長您來說明目前AI人工智慧在審計方面的應用未來若要是您繼續來擔任審計長後會如何來強化應用AI人工智慧來追查弊案以協助第一線審計官的辦案"},{"start":9732.848,"end":9749.844,"text":"報告委員 我剛剛在那裡報告未來的方向第一個 智慧審計第一個方向就是智慧審計我們的人力非常少 我們所有的審計室只有十幾個人"},{"start":9751.141,"end":9779.692,"text":"十幾個人要審計一個像彰化縣或者是這種只有十幾個人所以要用的就是AIAI可以當我們的審計助理可以當我們的審計顧問這個是這樣但是這個是協助我們行政作為主要的判斷還是審計人員要去做判斷但是現在我們的查帳是用數位比對"},{"start":9780.872,"end":9790.583,"text":"剛剛查出剛剛委員報告手指示的那幾項大部分都用數位數位就是說資料庫和資料庫比對像我們查出"},{"start":9792.854,"end":9811.39,"text":"這個法案已經判刑了這個廠商要停錢我們發現一千多家都沒有停錢所以才會發生那個太魯閣那個案子那個普悠瑪還是太魯閣那個案子啊或者發現我們用這個這個是會比對發現"},{"start":9813.292,"end":9841.631,"text":"圍標一千兩千多件我們都移送減掉我們會用這樣來看有的像這個被法院停錢的要沒收押要不要進我們收回一億六千多萬所以這些都是數位最後用AI做幫忙用數位用那個流程主動化每天他在做這個掃描所以"},{"start":9843.292,"end":9862.59,"text":"這個智慧審計或者AI審計或者數位審計對我們審計人力有很大的幫助對我們審計人員有很大的幫助我們會發展所以剛剛委員有提到AI審計資料中心是我們2015年主要的工作"},{"start":9864.69,"end":9883.663,"text":"那針對一零七年中選會前主委陳英賢違法失職重新刊登公告這個公投的公告來啟動第二預備金多花了人民納稅前九百三十一萬監察院已經認定嚴重損及政府的公信力"},{"start":9884.443,"end":9912.429,"text":"那憲法法庭以決議不受理懲戒法院也多次駁回在審那最近一次在審是114年4月24日上訴駁回那本席認為這是違法公告官員犯錯卻是用百姓納稅錢來付錢那中選會前主委陳英權必須負起他的責任中選會不當的支出"},{"start":9913.958,"end":9938.533,"text":"應事後來踢除追繳那已經多少年過去了因為他從107年到現在那陳英權一再來逃避該戶籍的賠償責任本席希望審計部你不要忘記處理陳英權最慢你認為何時可以把錢追回來你是不是給本席一個"},{"start":9939.707,"end":9964.689,"text":"報告委員 委員非常關心這個案子謝謝委員關心這個案子我們一直也注意到114年以後啊淳林前沒有再上市我們就棄了公室給中選會中選會啊我們說這個可能淳林前這個部分要處理他中選會回我回我一個意見說那是"},{"start":9965.745,"end":9976.752,"text":"那是委員會決議的不是從前一個人做的所以初步他回我們這個意見我們的同仁還在研究如何對這個委員會的決議所做的"},{"start":9981.154,"end":9996.888,"text":"在做處理 所以這個委員關心的 我們也非常關心推給所有委員 他們共同來決定這個實在是很扯啊而且我認為那是推脫之職啦我要看你哪時候能夠追出來啦因為這是給社會一個交代 這都是民始民高"},{"start":10005.676,"end":10030.015,"text":"我們也是這樣認為這也對整個社會大家以後的行政大概都依法行政本來就是應該要依法行政大家都依法行政就在這個行政不能透過委員會來演示來掩蓋老百姓大家都在看"},{"start":10030.975,"end":10056.947,"text":"那你身為沈記長當然你有責任有義務而且你是一直駁回這個你說他身為一個主委不必負擔嗎他有相對的權利就相對應該要負責責任我們也在探討是不是省界法院判他20萬他自己也離主了政治責任也處理了這樣是不是就是他的責任931萬變20萬這樣可以接受嗎"},{"start":10060.728,"end":10087.899,"text":"對 這個是委員的意見我們用這樣的意見和中選會談還在談 我認為那個沈記長 這個一定要繼續追而且我希望你給我一個時間這第一點 第二點光做一個陳英權違法失職濫用預算的案件都要花六年以上的時間都還沒有結果那勞動部就業安定基金濫用預算七千兩百二十四萬"},{"start":10089.039,"end":10118.239,"text":"被追回的那一天恐怕我看更遙遙無期那本席接著詢問審計部追查勞動部前部長許明尊長期濫用就業安定基金後續的進度審計部日前來揪出包括演唱會性別平等音樂會辦理空間裝潢包括軌道燈的裝設等等最後決定提出期間"},{"start":10121.28,"end":10142.728,"text":"224萬本席認為不能只用公務預算來歸電否則就是全民買單那政府機關要負起應有的責任讓那些違法失職要繼續來追討他們濫用預算那沈記長你針對這個就業安定基金預算濫用追討的情形"},{"start":10144.195,"end":10160.49,"text":"你認為在未來怎麼樣去防弊而且針對這個事情你認為應該要怎麼做我們防弊這部分有幾個面向勞動部已經在改了 已經處理了但是我們也在追它的成效如何"},{"start":10163.312,"end":10188.366,"text":"再來基金和公務要切開他切得如何這個我們都在處理有一些像裝潢那些那些我們檢調已經那個懷疑有的已經判了裡面判了裡面有涉及要默入所得的部分勞動部要去請求回來洗前部長的這個部分還在修法"},{"start":10192.108,"end":10216.157,"text":"司法處理當中 至於那7000多萬要怎麼處理我們已經請勞動部要直向查明勞動部現在在做這方面的處理陳記長 針對各部會裡面要是有雷同像那種就業案例基金這個我認為不是光只有勞動部而已"},{"start":10217.077,"end":10239.586,"text":"其他單位 一併啊都要查得清清楚楚的我們查出來有57個基金基金和公務啊 混入我們希望把它因為行政院的規定是要把它分 化分清楚所以這個部分我們已經行文給相關單位化分清楚那個基金啊"},{"start":10240.563,"end":10255.426,"text":"也是這個人民的血汗錢 對服務人作為他們自己的一個私有的金庫這個我們都會查現在以前大家都說會查公務現在我們基金也會查"},{"start":10256.327,"end":10277.289,"text":"營業也會查 財團法輪我們也會查這一個部分我們都在努力好啦 我希望那個沈記長一定要積極 不能放縱我認為說今天身為公務人員你就要依法行政那你今天不依法行政你縱容他 會養成他胃口越來越大"},{"start":10278.81,"end":10303.342,"text":"所以說我希望你好好的去追查這些問題截至114年9月5日丹納斯颱風所造成太陽能光電板受損影響為十二萬一千多片其中有三萬兩千片經檢修還尚可使用還可再利用其餘的八萬九千多片需要委託這些廢棄物的廠商來處理"},{"start":10305.843,"end":10314.932,"text":"丹納斯臺灣把太陽能光電板摧毀但也暴露了大型光電暗場缺乏防災應變計畫及壓光電板清除計畫"},{"start":10319.383,"end":10340.982,"text":"那沈記長你認為以沈記部這個認為說人員署收取光電板回收費用作為處理泰裔的模組織基金110年到112年衛甲回收費大約有1億左右那衛甲的比例大約佔10%"},{"start":10343.363,"end":10363.232,"text":"本席希望審計部持續監督經濟部以及及早的改善來啟動檢討太陽能光電板這些設備模組回收的費用以確保未來處理太溢的這些太陽能光電模組的費用來源我們去查這個模組費用的問題應該"},{"start":10367.182,"end":10391.973,"text":"到112年應該繳10點多億但是有4億 差不多將近4億沒繳我們催冷黑鼠 你要他去繳現在好像要處理這些廢棄物啊可能NSO的費用還不足可能還是要請冷黑鼠好好檢討這個光電模組的這些因為他"},{"start":10393.354,"end":10415.509,"text":"沒有想到會一陣颱風來摧毀了這麼多所以當時就是說20年後30年後財財處理沒想到就受到風災的損害所以這個我們會來照委員的意思來處理因為講實在話這些光電風電裡面弊端重重我相信你也很清楚"},{"start":10416.289,"end":10432.414,"text":"本席是支持穩健的綠能發展但不希望整個政策本末倒置漁電共生政策必須落實以養殖為本那綠電加值的原則當初政府官員政策講得非常漂亮"},{"start":10433.214,"end":10447.575,"text":"但是現實卻是有電無餘根據審計部報告指出2025年1月底以查核與電共生的這個案場其中有7成多未落實養殖的事業"},{"start":10448.877,"end":10470.723,"text":"的事實 那審計部統計全台大概完工併網的漁電共生案場一共有393件那只有122件這個其中通過37件有待改善的以及招廢止的有85件未落實養殖者比例佔69.67%主要還是農業結合綠能設施 衛能符合"},{"start":10477.805,"end":10491.689,"text":"原来的这些养殖计划本期是希望说沈记长你要承诺一定共生要持续列为沈记部稽查的重点终结有电无鱼的这些乱象你有没有什么看法"},{"start":10492.823,"end":10498.387,"text":"這個是這樣 那個是我們去看了看了以後 因為我們損棄的發現但是我們損棄發現都是根據一夜暑的計畫我們不會鑄創計畫一夜暑的計畫裡面要有魚"},{"start":10508.396,"end":10527.613,"text":"後來我們去看沒有魚後來我們通知了1月101月10後來有一些說明他們已經改善了一些了但是我們就照委員的意思還是要他繼續改善因為希望有魚又希望有電這個是看能夠取得雙重"},{"start":10530.215,"end":10554.994,"text":"都是雙重的獨立我們是希望這樣但是ES做的事情一樣以為主那個沈記長你包括離岸風電都一樣因為離岸風電它一開始有七成是短購短購就是溢價然後三成公開招標公開招標跟短購"},{"start":10556.135,"end":10577.933,"text":"那個價格之差實在是沒有辦法處理結果那個囤購以後我問那個沈龍津部長他說那些將來就是要技術移轉結果人家有申請專利你要技術移轉根本就不可能都是半成品進來插在那個海邊然後那楓葉裝一裝"},{"start":10579.494,"end":10594.466,"text":"那個根本騙局一場其實這裡面弊端重重啦沈記長我希望你要把這個事情要好好的查因為短購跟公開招標落差很大你去把它調出來看真的那個落差之大"},{"start":10595.944,"end":10610.051,"text":"這個委員這是一個事實 我們也查了我們也發現國產化的進度都落後沒有啦 都是半成民進來啦但是也發現有的廠商他後來要國產化 他也有他的意見"},{"start":10617.884,"end":10641.601,"text":"那個沈記長 那個都是騙局一場啦都是扮成敏進來摘下去啦 楓葉插一插啦然後說短購 一直飆二十年欸二十年台電損失九千一百億一年要損失四百五十五億關離岸楓電而已喔 光電還不算喔所以說這些問題應該要查清楚給社會一個交代我們會繼續啊 來追蹤 後來繼續來查核我認為希望沈記部要多用一點"},{"start":10648.561,"end":10651.567,"text":"好 謝謝林德福委員的詢問也謝謝被提名的陳審計長 謝謝"},{"start":10676.701,"end":10682.955,"text":"好我們接下來請今天登記第七位最後一位詢問的委員李坤城委員請詢問"},{"start":10703.121,"end":10729.037,"text":"謝謝院長 我們請沈記長麻煩請被提名的陳審議長在此李委員好沈記長好 辛苦了因為我們常常在我在省政委員會所以我們碰面的機會比較多給我們督促 給我們主導給我們協助 謝謝謝謝沈記長今天這一輪問下來你對於你的人事同意權有沒有信心"},{"start":10731.219,"end":10749.907,"text":"我是對如果能夠再繼任我對我有信心帶領我損棄同仁善盡損棄足足幫政府做一點事或者和行政部門共促進良善助理這個是大概有這個信心"},{"start":10751.287,"end":10778.475,"text":"您的角色跟我們立法委員的角色也有雷同之處我們審查預算然後看預算每年度執行的情況怎麼樣審計是看決算當然也是看說預算執行的情況是怎麼樣所以其實立法院跟審計部對於勘警預算這個荷包大概有相同的地方我請教一下審計長新的財務法修正之後"},{"start":10779.775,"end":10804.231,"text":"當然地方上面我們也從中央有撥了大概有4165億到地方去 從中央撥到地方去但是因為這次修法的確比較倉促包括我們在財政委員會三分鐘就出委員會然後最後在表決質詢的時候所送出來版本跟朝野協商版本到最後通過版本也不一樣所以有發生一些問題"},{"start":10805.431,"end":10824.732,"text":"後續所衍生的問題 包含第一個統籌分配款的公式錯誤然後城鄉差距擴大 适權財權分配的問題那也錢存的地方財政資源雖然增加但是地方政府的執行能量或是財政的努力不足"},{"start":10825.659,"end":10844.418,"text":"甚至有可能會發生說你多了這麼多的預算有可能在執行上面有問題的地方因為我也看你們的決算的報告也的確也抓出來說很多的地方政府在執行預算的時候發生說你明明有這些預算但是你的執行力不夠後續會再跟審計長再來討論我再請教一下"},{"start":10846.26,"end":10868.371,"text":"因為您之前也擔任過 主席處的副主席長現在是省計長 請問一下這次的財化法的修正大家討論最多的 也認為爭議最大的就是財權有劃分了 但是市權沒有跟著走以您的角色來看 財權跟市權怎麼樣的劃分會比較好"},{"start":10870.532,"end":10884.089,"text":"這個在我們相關的法裡面說希望中央一致性的或者引導性的由中央來做地方住住的由地方來做七一透性的由地方來做剛剛委員講"},{"start":10885.33,"end":10906.644,"text":"其實有時候看起來4100億其實增加快一倍所以我是希望中央和地方好好談把事和錢讓地方住住能夠預約事你就去做大家把事情大家談好"},{"start":10909.545,"end":10927.87,"text":"這樣對國家 站在國家整體的立場是對國家是會比較好所以我希望能夠借還有435億來平衡城鄉如果還有一些空間補助款的空間來平衡城鄉順便談談私和錢當時有些像排水"},{"start":10934.782,"end":10950.479,"text":"雨水像現在極端氣候很厲害啊那個排水應該是上中油啊那可能中央要幫忙那如果光地方去弄啊可能白飯碗徹底整理你看當時我們也查出來雨水排水到當時規劃7000多公里"},{"start":10953.466,"end":10980.127,"text":"現在只做了五千多公里還有一千多公里沒做我們是希望那這個是中央的責任還是地方的責任這一個我們是希望現在是水利署在幫如果能夠趕快把它做好極端氣候來的時候我們的潤性就夠所以這個是一些希望但是我們損失上我們會在後面來盡量督促但是這個才化法"},{"start":10980.587,"end":11002.424,"text":"影響整個國家整體的發展如果分配那時候的分配很重要所以我們是希望中央和地方能夠好好坐下來談談出一個我們也希望中央跟地方好好坐下來談但是發現說那個地方政府他們喊出來口號是地方包圍中央那沈界長怎麼看"},{"start":11003.151,"end":11016.021,"text":"我們還是大家要平心進去能夠大家是我差不多有的事情我已經做了有的事情別的縣市還沒做有的像農業縣它開源很難"},{"start":11019.263,"end":11042.688,"text":"因為我們的裡面都是財產稅貨財產稅貨者就佔的百分之四十幾你要叫農業縣去弄財產稅不太容易中央都會行的比較開源比較容易但是農業行的其實啊他有他的先天的限制所以應該大家"},{"start":11043.928,"end":11058.733,"text":"所以沈縣長也認為說這次的財務法的確在垂直分配跟水平分配上面出現了問題一些指標性上面你講的說一些指標性的問題也出現了我看也有委員希望說農業可能你限制他農業發展"},{"start":11059.893,"end":11077.134,"text":"限制他的土地只能做農業嘛其實也要給他機會這樣的確會造成說漁業稅收的比較多的一些縣市他越來越有錢因為他分配到的這個統籌分配款其實增加了那其實對一些中南部的農業縣市來講指標相對來講對他也不利啊"},{"start":11077.634,"end":11102.101,"text":"那就變成說我們本來修財化法是希望說能夠均衡這個地方各個縣市的發展那不夠的本來是中央透過這個一般性補助或是計畫性的補助來調衡那現在變成沒有這個彈性了現在你全部都下去給地方那就發生說我等一下後續會再跟審計長討論的問題那這個如果現在按照目前所通過的財化法會影響到說後續的你們這個審計的一些作為嗎"},{"start":11107.883,"end":11133.201,"text":"會 因為我剛剛提到它原來2014年的統籌分配款4600億是歷年來相當高的一個部分現在大幅增加了到8000多億這些如果進到它的個機關去我們的地方的損失量能產生衝擊這個我們已經在想辦法因應要怎麼因應大概"},{"start":11133.781,"end":11149.114,"text":"第一個我要聯合審計這幾個七億啊聯合審計第二個我要用AIAI是我當助理當顧問我要去審計以前我要去看這個淡水河的時候我要看什麼AI會告訴我"},{"start":11150.194,"end":11177.784,"text":"完了以後這個怎麼樣整合但是最後由我們審計人員來做判斷因為我告訴我們審計人員做任何事安全第一你租姓 租姓安全第一所以我也請我們的租姓市長每個月幫我查一次這些像外面拿來的那些數位資料我們不能出任何差錯所以這個大概我們用數位審計來"},{"start":11179.065,"end":11198.866,"text":"來做 會AI來做那最主要會用數位損盡大家希望能夠幫地方政府看出因為其實損盡是應該如果所長願意的話可以把損盡當朋友因為損盡你有時候你當一個所長千頭萬細"},{"start":11200.787,"end":11216.299,"text":"審計去幫你看如果那個報告也是要把主計跟審計都當好朋友對 你要把它人家審計講的有道理如果別的道理你可以告訴審計你的觀點可能有問題我們的觀點可能有問題如果我講的對他們應該要趕快去做"},{"start":11221.623,"end":11237.417,"text":"我再請教一下審計長我有看你們這個審計報告就是說我剛才提到就是說我們希望說地方政府拿到這個預算之後當然能夠去好好的執行所以我們也討論到它的執行力但是幾個比較大的案子譬如說像花蓮縣政府"},{"start":11238.338,"end":11252.807,"text":"他們的議會也提到就是說花蓮縣政府很多的計劃都是倒著做計劃先想出來了然後再去想說接下來要去怎麼樣去做所以包含什麼鄉縣大道 青年住宅等等"},{"start":11253.283,"end":11275.178,"text":"事前都沒有做過可行性評估導致推動後遇到許多的問題審計部在決算報告中都有做檢討 這第一個基隆也有 基隆就是說在113年度的總決算審核報告當中也指出來基隆市政府重大建設計畫執行率偏低部分計畫低於六成"},{"start":11276.183,"end":11287.803,"text":"顯示推動的效能不足提到就是說你有錢但是你沒有這個執行力還有你們在113年的審核報告中也提到"},{"start":11289.807,"end":11310.848,"text":"中央有編列計劃預算8.6億要來協助地方改善殯葬設施不足及老舊的問題但是計劃期屆將滿半數的績效指標累計達成率未及三成很多啦 我就舉一些重點來看然後還有地方補助"},{"start":11312.182,"end":11336.03,"text":"中央補助地方2.4億發展地方創生然後省基部也舉出來就是說九成的計畫沒有人按照期限來完成這個撥給地方總共2億4829萬然後兩成的計畫核定後測案九成的計畫未能一線完成這是國發會給地方做的這個地方創生等等"},{"start":11336.57,"end":11355.203,"text":"好 那就是回到我剛開始問這個審計黨的問題這樣我們也擔心就是你一下子地方多了比過去多了一倍的4165億的這個統籌分配款再加上現在在野黨要求計劃性的補助款跟這個一般性的補助款都不能低於前年度的這個撥補的這個預算"},{"start":11358.105,"end":11387.225,"text":"問題來了會不會造成我剛才講就是說你拿到這麼多錢了你現在發生執行力的問題因為你第一個我們也還看不到說到底現在各個縣市的對於拿到這麼多的預算他的計畫有沒有提出新的計畫第二個他的公務員的能力就是這樣子就是這麼多他有沒有辦法來執行這麼多的預算會不會最後造成說這些預算有可能會變成浪費或是甚至你沒有辦法執行到這些預算"},{"start":11389.349,"end":11395.382,"text":"我剛剛講 餅就是這麼大切了以後有的多了 有的少了但是"},{"start":11396.381,"end":11424.156,"text":"他的一個組織型態就是原來的所以這個族群上有時候會一下子前來了不知道怎麼用的確會發生這種情況因為我剛舉了好幾個例子就是已經給地方了地方也提出計畫了但是地方的執行力有問題那這個是還是過去已經按照這一個計畫給的那現在是你多了"},{"start":11425.016,"end":11440.107,"text":"這麼多 多了是世間多餘那我也擔心就是說那中央的好意在地方上面會不會變成執行上面的一個困擾像這種中央以前給的我們會希望他要規劃好所以順夫使"},{"start":11440.984,"end":11465.156,"text":"一個事情規劃很重要再來它因為整個建設有前週期的生命週期差不多一直規劃到營運它是有五個階段的但是規劃的時候是很重要你如果規劃的剛剛委員講你沒有規劃好以後整個族型的時候發現這裡也有問題那裡也有問題所以會造成"},{"start":11466.696,"end":11484.601,"text":"一些困境沒辦法執行或者是效能不佳這個是一個問題再來委員談的我也去注意到因為地方給了這麼多我們114年到6月我們有查地方的公共建設"},{"start":11488.562,"end":11508.218,"text":"1066項 其中有超過八成的只有四個單位 其餘都低於八成你說只是低於八成喔其餘有四個單位是高於八成以上有剩下到六位 今年都六位他們大概我們就先疫警"},{"start":11508.918,"end":11536.437,"text":"他們可能會趕工會處理但是所有的事情在規劃我希望這些事情你要提前就把方案規劃好放著錢來了方案提出來再檢討一下根據實際方案再修正就可以趕快發報趕快做現在看起來不是這樣子現在看起來是先有錢了計畫好像還沒有看出來他因為先有錢來了但是因為其實是這樣"},{"start":11537.758,"end":11557.177,"text":"我看了統籌會議是多了但是一般性補助款是為儲但是計劃型是有減了一些所以加起來他沒有多到那麼多所以整個所以要中央和地方要坐下來好好談一下"},{"start":11557.777,"end":11582.042,"text":"你這樣看計劃性補助款因為中央的餅就是這麼大所以說統籌分配款增加了計劃性補助款中央可能會本來是屬於我們在講的財權跟市權有些是屬於這個地方應該要處理的所以中央就不做這個補助了當然也引起地方上面一些反彈但是在野黨他們打算修這個財化法他就是說計劃性補助款"},{"start":11583.554,"end":11600.608,"text":"這個你也不能少一般性補助款你也不能少所以那個彈性就沒有了所以我一直希望中央和地方我們是站在全國一體全國一體這個是我們只有台灣這個島我們希望每個人都好"},{"start":11601.617,"end":11627.962,"text":"我都不是說希望目前的採劃法的修法至少目前修成這樣子你有認為說對台灣整個20個縣市都好嗎那個看在最後因為剛好他有產生一些矛盾所以有機會大家再談 談好像你剛才講的六都歸六都台北市大家怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":11629.882,"end":11641.687,"text":"當然行政院已經有答應說不會少於114年的那些一般性補助款、同仇分配授款加起來的總額行政院的善意是已經釋出來了"},{"start":11643.37,"end":11670.488,"text":"好 那再請教一下這個沈縣長剛剛你也提到就是說一些財劃法的指標性的問題就是說目前在這個指標裡面它的分配共識裡面對於人口數還有這個營利事業營業額的指標合起來佔了75%左右這也是我剛才所擔心就是說你如果把這個指標放在這裡的話當然對於雙北桃園六都來講可能"},{"start":11671.508,"end":11696.441,"text":"所增加的這個統籌分配款會比較多但是對於非六都的這些農業縣市來講就有可能會相對來講會減少甚至連彰化縣這麼大的一個縣它其實人口數也算多但是它有可能因為它本身屬於工廠的部分大公司的部分比較少所以在這次的統籌分配款裡面它拿的其實相對其他六都來講是少的那請教一下就是說"},{"start":11697.341,"end":11715.191,"text":"按照目前的修法的公式來看的話那沈建展有沒有認為有什麼可以需要再做調整的地方讓城鄉差距的差距我們本來要縮小但是這次財務法修法之後我們沒有看到城鄉差距的縮小反而讓它擴大"},{"start":11716.748,"end":11732.913,"text":"這個因為分配本來在分配之前如果能夠做一些大家談因為分配出去大家都知道我可以拿多少如果少對他來講是一個衝擊"},{"start":11734.734,"end":11752.871,"text":"所以坐下來談 大家談到把這些談到一個合理的數字能夠幫助窮鄉僻壤或者能夠讓建設還沒開始的怎麼談 沈界長這邊有沒有什麼因為你每年的決算你都可以看得出來說各個縣市政府"},{"start":11753.351,"end":11769.341,"text":"在執行預算的時候 出現了一些問題按照你的角度來講 怎麼談對於財務法的修正未來不論是行政院 如果提出自己的版本的話那要怎麼樣去修 會比較好一點"},{"start":11770.792,"end":11798.94,"text":"這一個我是沒有去因為這不是我的主軸所以我沒有做那麼深入的探討沒有做那麼深入的探討所以我只有三個部分都要統籌分配稅款一般性補助款還有計畫型補助款要看還有地方的財政開源能力地方的稅入也要看"},{"start":11800.239,"end":11823.225,"text":"如果要看地方的稅入或者稅出其實三年平均以後它會出現它的一個水準出來或者是稅出三年平均以後它會出現一個水準出來我們不要影響它的水準讓我們大家都能夠越來越好"},{"start":11825.358,"end":11853.857,"text":"我的意思就是說現在的確有出現這些問題了所以沒有達成我們希望說修了財務法之後能夠越來越好因為包含這些農業縣市的這些立委也提出不同的看法那當然修法的源頭還是在立法院因為不論這個公司的錯誤或是說未來有關這個財務法怎麼修修法的源頭還是要回到立法院來那當然行政院我也認為說要有自己的一個版本"},{"start":11855.337,"end":11883.443,"text":"這個件事情證明了說其實在野黨在財化法的修正上面我認為他沒有做好全盤的了解所以才造成說一個財化法衝突修完之後產生這麼多的問題所以我也建議說我們的財政部能夠提出一個比較完善的版本來修改讓財化法修完之後能夠對於這些城鄉的差距或是說這些城市還有非城市的農業縣市的一些"},{"start":11884.484,"end":11899.225,"text":"這個差距能夠越來越小啦我只是說沈計長站在這一個審計的一些角度上面不妨也給我們一些指導啦因為財務法是牽涉到很多人有的人大家都不太容易擺平所以都"},{"start":11900.046,"end":11918.111,"text":"要不行政院 為什麼要中央和地方要談很多次 大家好好談談出最適合我們整個台灣全體人民的一個方式大家不能說哪一個怎麼樣所以盡量來因為它是涉及"},{"start":11926.653,"end":11949.203,"text":"謝謝李坤城委員的詢問也謝謝被提名人陳審計長謝謝報告全員委員會我們今天針對被提名人陳瑞銘審計長詢答部分到此為止我們再一次謝謝被提名人審計長的列席答詢另外有關各黨團對被提名人所提書面問題及被提名人答覆之相關資料列入公報記錄"},{"start":11950.644,"end":11978.675,"text":"報全委委員會審議長被提名人資格以及是否私認相關事項已經審查完畢我們現在本案做以下決議提報院會以記名投票表決今天非常謝謝陳審計長列席也謝謝陳永康委員從頭到尾陪著我們一起來審查審計長的相關各種提名的答訊也謝謝李坤城委員我們現在全委會散會"}]}},{"id":"163789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a139585ff62198c513b30e92108cb222197a2d4aae0189fbb1be88bad02b2ffd216a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"17:28:35 - 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主席處的副主席長現在是省計長 請問一下這次的財化法的修正大家討論最多的 也認為爭議最大的就是財權有劃分了 但是市權沒有跟著走以您的角色來看 財權跟市權怎麼樣的劃分會比較好"},{"start":192.562,"end":206.12,"text":"這個在我們相關的法裡面說希望中央一致性的或者引導性的由中央來做地方住住的由地方來做七一透性的由地方來做剛剛委員講"},{"start":207.361,"end":228.675,"text":"其實有時候看起來4100億其實增加快一倍所以我是希望中央和地方好好談把事和錢讓地方住住能夠預約事你就去做大家把事情大家談好"},{"start":231.578,"end":249.914,"text":"這樣對國家 站在國家整體的立場是對國家是會比較好所以我希望能夠借還有435億來平衡城鄉如果還有一些空間補助款的空間來平衡城鄉順便談談私汗錢當時有些像排水"},{"start":256.813,"end":272.507,"text":"雨水像現在極端氣候很厲害啊那個排水應該是上中油啊那可能中央要幫忙那如果光地方去弄啊可能白飯碗徹底整理你看當時我們也查出來雨水排水到當時規劃7000多公里"},{"start":275.497,"end":302.158,"text":"現在只做了五千多公里還有一千多公里沒做我們是希望那這個是中央的責任還是地方的責任這一個我們是希望現在是水利署在幫如果能夠趕快把它做好極端氣候來的時候我們的潤性就夠所以這個是一些希望但是我們損失上我們會在後面來盡量督促但是這個柴化法"},{"start":302.618,"end":324.455,"text":"影響整個國家整體的發展如果分配那時候的分配很重要所以我們是希望中央和地方能夠好好坐下來談談出一個我們也希望中央跟地方好好坐下來談但是發現說那個地方政府他們喊出來口號是地方包圍中央那沈界長怎麼看"},{"start":325.182,"end":338.049,"text":"我們還是大家要平心進去能夠大家是我差不多有的事情我已經做了有的事情別的縣市還沒做有的像農業縣它開源很難"},{"start":341.292,"end":356.791,"text":"因為我們的裡面都是財產稅貨財產稅貨者就佔了百分之四十幾你要叫農業縣去弄財產稅不太容易中央都會行的比較開源比較容易"},{"start":357.392,"end":380.778,"text":"但是農業型的話其實它有它的先天的限制所以應該大家中央所以沈經長也認為說這次的財務法的確在垂直分配跟水平分配上面出現了問題一些指標性上面你講的說一些指標性的問題也出現了我看也有委員希望說農業可能你限制它農業發展"},{"start":381.918,"end":410.198,"text":"限住他的土地只能做農業嘛其實也要給他機會這樣的確會造成說一月稅收的比較多的一些縣市他越來越有錢因為他分配到的這個統籌分配款其實增加了那其實對一些中南部的農業縣市來講指標相對來講對他也不利啊那就變成說我們本來修財化法是希望說能夠均衡這個地方各個縣市的發展那不夠的本來是中央透過這個一般性補助或是計畫性的補助來調衡嘛"},{"start":411.659,"end":424.132,"text":"現在變成沒有這個彈性了現在你全部都下去給地方然後就發生說我等一下後續會再跟審計長討論的問題如果現在按照目前所通過的裁判法會影響到說後續的你們審計的一些作為嗎"},{"start":429.877,"end":455.232,"text":"會 因為我剛剛提到它原來2014年的統籌分配款4600億是歷年來相當高的一個部分現在大幅增加到8000多億這些如果進到它的那個各機關去我們的地方的損失量能產生衝擊這一個我們已經在想辦法因應要怎麼因應大概"},{"start":455.812,"end":471.144,"text":"第一個我要聯合損棄這幾個七億啊聯合損棄第二個我要用AIAI是我當助理當顧問我要去損棄以前我要去看這個淡水河的時候我要看什麼AI會告訴我"},{"start":472.224,"end":499.812,"text":"完了以後這個怎麼樣整合但是最後由我們審計人員來做判斷因為我告訴我們審計人員做任何事安全第一你租姓 租姓安全第一所以我也請我們的租姓市長每個月幫我查一次這些像外面拿來的那些數位資料我們不能出任何差錯所以這個大概我們用數位審計來"},{"start":501.112,"end":521.018,"text":"來做 會AI來做那最主要會用數位損盡大概希望能夠幫地方政府看出因為其實損盡是應該如果所長願意的話可以把損盡當朋友因為損盡你有時候你當一個所長千頭萬系"},{"start":522.818,"end":538.329,"text":"審計去幫你看 如果那個報告也是要把主計跟審計都當好朋友對 你要把它 人家審計講的有道理那如果別的道理 你可以告訴審計你的觀點可能有問題 我們的觀點可能有問題那如果我講的對 他們應該要趕快去做"},{"start":543.653,"end":559.446,"text":"我再請教一下審計長我有看你們這個審計報告我剛才提到就是說我們希望說地方政府拿到這個預算之後當然能夠去好好的執行所以我們也討論到它的執行力但是幾個比較大的案子譬如說像花蓮縣政府"},{"start":560.366,"end":574.837,"text":"他們議會也提到花蓮縣政府很多的計劃都是倒著做計劃先想出來了然後再去想說接下來要去怎麼樣去做所以包含什麼鄉縣大道青年住宅等等"},{"start":575.313,"end":597.18,"text":"事前都沒有做過可行性評估導致推動後遇到許多的問題審計部在決算報告中都有做檢討 這第一個基隆也有 基隆就是說在113年度的總決算審核報告當中也指出來基隆市政府重大建設計畫執行率偏低部分計畫低於六成"},{"start":598.22,"end":609.828,"text":"顯示推動的效能不足提到就是說你有錢但是你沒有執行力還有你們在113年的審核報告中也提到"},{"start":611.841,"end":632.881,"text":"中央有編列計劃預算8.6億要來協助地方改善殯葬設施不足及老舊的問題但是計劃期屆將滿半數的績效指標累計達成率未及三成很多啦 我就舉一些重點來看然後還有地方補助"},{"start":634.212,"end":658.061,"text":"中央補助地方2.4億發展地方創生然後省基部也舉出來就是說九成的計畫沒有人按照期限來完成這個撥給地方總共2億4829萬然後兩成的計畫核定後測案九成的計畫未能一線完成這是國發會給地方做的這個地方創生等等"},{"start":659.482,"end":677.234,"text":"回到我剛開始問審計黨的問題這樣我們也擔心一下子地方多了比過去多了一倍的4165億的統籌分配款再加上現在在野黨要求計劃性的補助款跟一般性的補助款都不能低於前年度的撥補預算"},{"start":680.136,"end":709.256,"text":"問題來了那會不會造成我剛才講就是說那你拿到這麼多錢了那你現在發生執行力的問題因為你第一個我們也還看不到說到底現在各個縣市的對於拿到這麼多的預算他的計劃有沒有提出新的計劃第二個他的公務員的能力就是這樣子就是這麼多他有沒有辦法來執行這麼多的預算那會不會最後造成說這些預算有可能會變成浪費或是甚至你沒有辦法執行到這些預算"},{"start":711.38,"end":717.033,"text":"我剛剛講餅就是這麼大切了以後有的多了有的少了但是"},{"start":718.411,"end":746.187,"text":"他的一個組織型態就是原來的所以這個族群上有時候會一下子前來了不知道怎麼用的確會發生這種情況因為我剛才舉了好幾個例子就是已經給地方了地方也提出計畫了但是地方的執行力有問題那這個是還是過去已經按照這一個計畫給的那現在是你多了"},{"start":747.047,"end":761.618,"text":"這麼多多了是事件多餘那我也擔心就是說那中央的好意在地方上面會不會變成執行上面的一個困擾像這種中央以前給的我們會希望他要規劃好所以順忽使"},{"start":763.015,"end":787.184,"text":"一個事情規劃很重要再來它因為整個建設有前週期生命週期差不多一直規劃到營運它是有五個階段的但是規劃的時候是很重要你如果規劃的剛剛委員講你沒有規劃好以後整個族型的時候發現這裡也有問題那裡也有問題所以會造成"},{"start":788.724,"end":806.628,"text":"一些困境沒辦法執行或者是效能不佳這個是一個問題再來委員談的我也去注意到因為地方給了這麼多我們114年到6月我們有查地方的公共建設"},{"start":810.59,"end":830.237,"text":"1066項其中有超過八成的只有四個單位其餘都低於八成所以你說只是低於八成其餘有四個單位是高於八成以上有剩下到六月 六月 今年的六月他們大概我們就先預警"},{"start":830.957,"end":858.468,"text":"他們可能會趕工 會處理但是所有的事情在規劃我希望這些事情你要提前就把方案規劃好放著錢來了方案提出來再檢討一下根據實際方案再修正就可以趕快發報 趕快做現在看起來不是這樣子現在看起來是先有錢了計畫行還沒有看出來他因為先有錢來了但是因為其實是這樣"},{"start":859.788,"end":878.801,"text":"我看了統籌會議是多了但是一般性補助款是維持但是計畫型是有減了一些所以加起來他沒有多到那麼多所以整個所以要中央和地方要坐下來好好談一下"},{"start":879.822,"end":904.078,"text":"你這樣看計劃性補助款因為中央的餅就是這麼大所以說統籌分配款增加了那計劃性補助款中央可能會本來是屬於就是我們在講的財權跟市權有些是屬於這個地方應該要處理的所以中央就不做這個補助了當然也引起地方上面一些反彈但是在野黨他們打算修這個財化法他就是說計劃性補助款"},{"start":905.584,"end":922.63,"text":"這個你也不能少一般性補助款你也不能少所以那個彈性就沒有了所以我一直希望中央和地方我們是站在全國一體全國一體這個是我們只有台灣這個島我們希望每個人都好"},{"start":923.647,"end":949.142,"text":"我都不是說希望目前的採劃法的修法至少目前修成這樣子你有認為說對台灣整個20個縣市都好嗎那個看在最後因為剛好他有產生一些矛盾所以有機會大家再談 談好像你剛才講的六都非六都台北市 大家怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":951.924,"end":963.715,"text":"當然行政院已經有答應說不會少於114年的那些一般性補助款、統籌分配措款加起來的總額行政院的善意是已經釋出來了"},{"start":965.401,"end":992.518,"text":"好 那再請教一下這個沈縣長剛剛你也提到就是說一些財劃法的指標性的問題就是說目前在這個指標裡面它的分配共識裡面對於人口數還有這個營利事業營業額的指標合起來佔了75%左右這也是我剛才所擔心就是說你如果把這個指標放在這裡的話當然對於雙北桃園六都來講可能"},{"start":993.538,"end":1018.469,"text":"所增加的統籌分配款會比較多但是對於非六都的這些農業縣市來講就有可能會相對來講會減少甚至連彰化縣這麼大的一個縣它其實人口數也算多但是它有可能因為它本身屬於工廠的部分大公司的部分比較少所以在這次的統籌分配款裡面它拿的其實相對其他六都來講是少的那請教一下就是說"},{"start":1019.369,"end":1037.224,"text":"按照目前的修法的公式來看的話沈介掌有沒有認為有什麼可以需要再做調整的地方讓城鄉差距的差距我們本來要縮小但是這次財務法修法之後我們沒有看到城鄉差距的縮小反而讓它擴大"},{"start":1038.779,"end":1054.955,"text":"這個因為分配本來在分配之前如果能夠做一些大家談因為分配出去大家都知道我可以拿多少如果少 對他來講是一個衝擊"},{"start":1056.776,"end":1074.885,"text":"所以坐下來談 大家談到把這些談到一個合理的數字能夠幫助窮鄉僻壤或者能夠讓建設還沒開始的怎麼談 沈界長這邊有沒有什麼因為你每年的決算你都可以看得出來說各個縣市政府"},{"start":1075.385,"end":1091.468,"text":"在执行某一些执行预算的时候出现了一些问题那么按照你的角度来讲怎么谈对于财务法的修正未来不论是行政院如果提出自己的版本的话那要怎么样去修会比较好一点"},{"start":1092.822,"end":1120.971,"text":"這一個我是沒有去因為這不是我的主軸所以我沒有做那麼深入的探討沒有做那麼深入的探討所以我只有三個部分都要統籌分配稅款一般性補助款還有計畫型補助款要看還有地方的財政開源能力地方的稅入也要看"},{"start":1122.27,"end":1145.275,"text":"如果要看地方的稅入或者稅出其實三年平均以後它會出現它的一個水準出來或者是稅出三年平均以後它會出現一個水準出來我們不要影響它的水準讓它能夠我們大家都能夠越來越好"},{"start":1147.408,"end":1175.887,"text":"我的意思就是說現在的確有出現這些問題了所以沒有達成我們希望說修了財務法之後能夠越來越好嘛因為包含這些農業縣市的這些立委也提出不同的看法那當然修法的源頭還是在立法院因為不論這個公司的錯誤或是說未來有關這個財務法怎麼修修法的源頭還是要回到立法院來那當然行政院我也認為說要有自己的一個版本"},{"start":1177.367,"end":1205.479,"text":"這個件事情證明了說其實在野黨在才化法的修正上面我認為他沒有做好全盤的了解所以才造成說一個才化法衝突修完之後產生這麼多的問題所以我也建議說我們的財政部能夠提出一個比較完善的版本來修改讓這個才化法修完之後能夠對於這些城鄉的差距或是說這些城市還有非城市的農業縣市的一些"},{"start":1206.52,"end":1221.256,"text":"這個差距能夠越來越小啦我只是說省計長站在這一個省計的一些角度上面不妨也給我們一些指導啦因為柴耀華是牽涉到很多人大家都不太容易擺平所以都"},{"start":1222.077,"end":1248.844,"text":"要不行政院 為什麼要中央和地方要談很多次 大家好好談談出最適合我們整個臺灣全體人民的一個方式大家不能說哪一個怎麼樣哪一個怎麼樣所以盡量來因為它是涉及好 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租料企圖不受限 所長要任期大概還有八大支柱 要我們這樣做那這個部分我們如果"},{"start":148.88,"end":172.834,"text":"大宴有成立的修憲委員會如果考監如果有受到影響那我們審計部也會受到影響那我們審計部的立場就是還是要希望能夠維持超然獨立所長的任命要維持在憲法因為這個是最高審計機關希望"},{"start":175.168,"end":190.503,"text":"今天要是經過這個整個憲法遵修條文要是提議通過 你有什麼看法這個部分 因為這個部分 現在世界各國世界各國"},{"start":191.62,"end":215.957,"text":"剛剛講有在國會的也有獨立的也有司法型的也有行政型的差不多有四種大部分除了美國和英國以外大概都是在國會其他最主要的都是獨立因為獨立不受政治的干擾"},{"start":217.678,"end":233.657,"text":"那問題是過去現在的執政黨他們一直主張就是會監察院會考試院啊所以說才有人提出這樣的一個條文啊對不對那要是條文通過那沈記長你有什麼看法"},{"start":234.502,"end":254.105,"text":"我們是希望能夠比照世界各國的大部分的國家能夠獨立於三權之外這樣才能夠超然獨立本席認為強化審計功能能夠強化政府機關經費的有效應用"},{"start":255.633,"end":265.939,"text":"以促進政府整個財政的一個透明增進公共利益來提升政府財政效能來勘緊納稅人的荷包"},{"start":267.216,"end":291.978,"text":"那像AI人工智慧科技發展非常的迅速那本席也從媒體報導得知有審計官來導入AI人工智慧利用AI來查閉比對案件從中果然來發現有一些異常進而揪出不肖的廠商追回部分政府的預算"},{"start":293.199,"end":320.351,"text":"那審計部在115年預算打算推動AI審計資料中心的發展計畫那請陳審計長您來說明目前AI人工智慧在審計方面的應用未來如果要是您繼續來擔任審計長後會如何來強化應用AI人工智慧來追查弊案以協助第一線審計官的辦案"},{"start":322.899,"end":339.87,"text":"報告委員 我剛剛在那裡報告未來的方向第一個 智慧審計第一個方向就是智慧審計我們的人力非常少 我們所有的審計室只有十幾個人"},{"start":341.195,"end":369.726,"text":"十幾個人要審計一個像彰化縣或者是這種只有十幾個人所以要用的就是AIAI可以當我們的審計助理可以當我們的審計顧問這個是這樣但是這個是協助我們行政作為主要的判斷還是審計人員要去做判斷但是現在我們的查帳是用數位比對"},{"start":370.906,"end":380.615,"text":"剛剛查出剛剛委員報告所指示的那幾項大部分都用數位數位 就是說資料庫和資料庫比對像我們查出"},{"start":382.908,"end":398.121,"text":"這個法案已經判刑了這個廠商要停錢我們發現一千多家都沒有停錢所以才會發生那個太魯閣那個案子那個普悠瑪還是太魯閣那個案子啊或者發現我們用這個數位比對發現"},{"start":403.426,"end":428.565,"text":"圍標兩千多件我們都移送減掉我們會用這樣來看有的像這個被法院停錢的要沒收押要不要進我們收回一億六千多萬所以這些都是數位最後用AI做幫忙用數位 用流程主動化每天做這個掃描"},{"start":431.427,"end":452.619,"text":"所以這個智慧審計或者AI審計或者數位審計對我們審計人力有很大的幫助對我們審計人員有很大的幫助我們會發展所以剛剛委員有提到AI審計資料中心是我們2015年主要的工作"},{"start":455.927,"end":473.714,"text":"針對107年中選會前主委陳英前違法失職重新刊登公投公告來啟動第二預備金多花人民納稅前931萬監察院已經認定嚴重損及政府的公信力"},{"start":474.474,"end":502.491,"text":"那憲法法庭以決議不受理懲戒法院也多次駁回在審那最近一次在審是114年4月24日上訴駁回那本席認為這是違法公告官員犯錯卻是用百姓納稅錢來付錢那中選會前主委陳英權必須負起他的責任中選會不當的支出"},{"start":503.992,"end":528.565,"text":"應事後來踢除追繳那已經多少年過去了因為他從107年到現在那陳英權一再來逃避該戶籍的賠償責任本席希望審計部你不要忘記處理陳英權最慢你認為何時可以把錢追回來你是不是給本席一個"},{"start":529.741,"end":554.723,"text":"報告委員 委員非常關心這個案子謝謝委員關心這個案子我們一直也注意到114年以後啊陳寗錢沒有再上市我們就棲了公室給中選會中選會啊我們說這個可能陳寗錢這個部分要處理他中選會回我回我一個意見說那是"},{"start":555.776,"end":578.064,"text":"那是委員會決議的不是從前一個人做的所以初步他回我們這個意見我們的同仁還在研究如何對這個委員會的決議所做的處理所以這個委員關心的我們也非常關心推給所有委員他們共同來決定"},{"start":579.204,"end":582.446,"text":"這個實在是很扯啊我認為那是推託之職我要看你哪時候能夠追出來因為這是給社會一個交代這都是民脂民膏"},{"start":595.633,"end":620.046,"text":"我們也是這樣認為這也對整個社會大家以後的行政大概都依法行政本來就是應該要依法行政大家都依法行政就在這個行政不能透過委員會來演示來掩蓋老百姓大家都在看"},{"start":620.986,"end":646.983,"text":"那你身為審計長當然你有責任有義務而且你是一直駁回這個你說他身為一個主委不必負擔嗎他有相對的權利就相對應該要負責責任我們也在探討是不是省界法院判他20萬他自己也離主了政治責任也處理了這樣是不是就是他的責任931萬變20萬這樣可以接受嗎"},{"start":650.765,"end":677.933,"text":"對 這個是委員的意見我們用這樣的意見和中選會談還在談 我認為那個沈記長 這個一定要繼續追而且我希望你給我一個時間這是第一點 第二點光做一個陳寅前違法失職濫用預算的案件都要花六年以上的時間都還沒有結果那勞動部就業安定基金濫用預算七千兩百二十四萬"},{"start":679.093,"end":708.293,"text":"被追回的那一天恐怕我看更遙遙無期那本席接著詢問審計部追查勞動部前部長許明尊長期濫用就業安定基金後續的進度審計部日前來揪出包括演唱會性別平等音樂會辦理空間裝潢包括軌道燈的裝設等等最後決定提出期間"},{"start":711.314,"end":732.78,"text":"224萬本席認為不能只用公務預算來歸電否則就是全民買單那政府機關要負起應有的責任讓那些違法失職要繼續來追討他們濫用預算那沈記長你針對這個就業安定基金預算濫用追討的情形"},{"start":734.229,"end":751.05,"text":"你認為在未來怎麼樣去防弊而且針對這個事情你認為應該要怎麼做我們防弊這部分已經有幾個面向勞動部已經在改了 已經處理了但是我們也在追它的成效如何這一個"},{"start":753.352,"end":775.404,"text":"再來基金和公務要切開他切得如何這個我們都在處理有一些像裝潢那些那些我們檢調已經法院有的已經判了裡面判了裡面有涉及要默入所得的部分勞動部要去請求回來洗前部長的這個部分還在修法"},{"start":782.168,"end":806.211,"text":"司法處理當中 至於那7000多萬要怎麼處理我們已經請勞動部要逐項查明勞動部現在在做這方面的處理針對各部會裡面要是有雷同像那種就業案例基金這個我認為不是光只有勞動部而已"},{"start":807.112,"end":829.626,"text":"其他單位 一併啊謝謝委員你很深入我們查出來有57個基金基金和公務啊 混溜我們希望把它因為行政院的規定是要把它分 劃分清楚所以這個部分我們已經行文給相關單位劃分清楚那個基金啊"},{"start":830.618,"end":845.457,"text":"也是這個人民的血汗錢 對服務人作為他們自己的一個私有的金庫這個我們都會查現在以前大家都說會查公務現在我們基金也會查"},{"start":846.558,"end":867.324,"text":"營業也會查財團法輪我們也會查這一個部分我們都在努力好啦我希望那個沈記長一定要積極不能放縱我認為說今天身為公務人員你就要依法行政那你今天不依法行政你縱容他會養成他胃口越來越大"},{"start":868.844,"end":893.394,"text":"所以說我希望你好好的去追查這些問題截至114年9月5日丹納斯颱風所造成太陽能光電板受損影響為十二萬一千多片其中有三萬兩千片經檢修還尚可使用還可再利用其餘的八萬九千多片需要委託這些廢棄物的廠商來處理"},{"start":895.875,"end":908.043,"text":"丹納斯臺灣把太陽能光電板摧毀但也暴露了大型光電暗場缺乏防災應變計畫及壓光電板清除計畫"},{"start":910.315,"end":931.016,"text":"那沈記長你認為以沈記部這個認為說人員署收取光電板回收費用作為處理泰裔的模組織基金110年到112年衛甲回收費大約有1億左右那衛甲的比例大約佔10%"},{"start":933.398,"end":952.952,"text":"本席希望審計部持續監督經濟部以及及早的改善來啟動檢討太陽能光電板這些設備模組回收的費用以確保未來處理太溢的這些太陽能光電模組之費用來源我們去查這個模組費用的問題應該"},{"start":957.233,"end":982.022,"text":"到112年應該繳10點多億啦但是有4億 差不多將近4億沒繳我們催冷黑鼠 你要他去繳現在好像要處理這些廢棄物啊可能NSO的費用還不足可能還是要請冷黑鼠好好檢討這個光電模組的這些因為他"},{"start":983.402,"end":1005.539,"text":"沒有想到會一陣颱風來 摧毀了這麼多所以當時就是說20年後 30年後財財處理沒想到就受到風災的損害所以這個我們會來照委員的意思來處理因為講實在話 這些光電風電裡面弊端重重我相信你也很清楚"},{"start":1006.34,"end":1022.468,"text":"本席是支持穩健的綠能發展但不希望整個政策本末倒置漁電共生政策必須落實以養殖為本那綠電加值的原則當初政府官員政策講得非常漂亮"},{"start":1023.248,"end":1037.609,"text":"但是現實卻是有電無餘根據審計部報告指出2025年1月底以查核與電共生的這個案場其中有7成多未落實養殖的事業"},{"start":1038.911,"end":1060.757,"text":"的事實那審計部統計全台大概完工併網的漁電共生案場一共有393件那只有122件這個其中通過37件有待改善的以及招廢止的有85件未落實養殖者比例佔69.67%主要還是農業結合綠能設施未能符合"},{"start":1067.859,"end":1081.709,"text":"原來的這些養殖計畫本期是希望說沈記長你要承諾一定共生要持續列為沈記部稽查的重點終結有電無魚的這些亂象你有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":1082.857,"end":1089.562,"text":"這個是這樣 那個是我們去看了看了以後 因為我們損棄的發現但是我們損棄發現都是根據一夜暑的計畫我們不會鑄創計畫一夜暑的計畫裡面要有魚"},{"start":1098.43,"end":1117.665,"text":"後來我們去看沒有魚後來我們通知了1月10後來有一些說明他們已經改善了一些了但是我們就照委員的意思還是要他繼續改善因為希望有魚又希望有電這個是看能夠取得雙重"},{"start":1120.247,"end":1145.026,"text":"都是雙重的獨立我們是希望這樣但是業主做的事情一樣以為主那個沈記長你包括離岸風電都一樣因為離岸風電它一開始有七成是短購短購就是溢價然後三成公開招標公開招標跟短購"},{"start":1146.167,"end":1167.967,"text":"那個價格之差實在是沒有辦法處理那結果那個輪購以後我問那個沈榮金部長他說那些將來就是要技術移轉結果人家有申請專利你要技術移轉根本就不可能都是半成品進來插在那個海邊然後那楓葉裝一裝"},{"start":1169.528,"end":1184.5,"text":"那個根本騙局一場其實在裡面弊端重重啦沈記長我希望你要把這個事情要好好的查因為短購跟公開招標落差很大你去把它調出來看真的那個落差之大"},{"start":1185.978,"end":1205.928,"text":"這個委員這是一個事實我們也查了我們也發現國產化的進度都落後沒有啦 都是半成民進來啦但是也發現有的廠商他後來都要國產化他也有他的意見"},{"start":1207.915,"end":1224.048,"text":"那個沈紀長 那個都是騙局一場啦都是半成品進來摘下去啦 楓葉插一插啦然後說短過 一直飆20年欸20年台電損失9100億一年要損失455億關離岸楓電而已喔 光電還不算喔所以說這些問題應該要查清楚給社會一個交代我們會繼續啊 來追蹤 後來繼續來查核我認為希望沈紀部要多用一點"},{"start":1238.615,"end":1239.803,"text":"好 谢谢林德福"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（17時7分）韓院長，還有陳審計長，是不是請陳審計長？"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：審計長您好。審計長，請教您有關於修憲相關的議題，立法院目前有委員提出憲法增修條文，提議要廢除監察院，並將中華民國憲法中有關於監察院審計部的職權業務移至立法院，並於立法院下設審計部，還有審計權宜由立法院來行使。2026年九合一大選很有機會合併舉行修憲複決投票，未來修憲結果攸關整個審計部組織的歸屬，今天提名審查，本席請問審計長，您對上述的修憲議題，對審計部未來定位的看法與提醒建議，還是完全尊重未來立法院相關決議與未來公民修憲複決的投票結果。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：報告委員，謝謝委員關心，因為這是對我們審計有非常大影響的一個問題，依照國際，最高審計機關要能夠具獨立性，審計的獨立性非常重要，就是說法律要保障它作業不受干預，資料取得不受限，首長有任期，大概它有八大原則要我們這樣做，這個部分如果大院成立修憲委員會，考監如果有受到影響，我們審計部也會受到影響，我們審計部的立場還是希望能夠維持超然獨立，所以首長的任命要維持在憲法，因為這是最高審計機關，希望……"],["林委員德福：但是今天整個憲法增修條文要是提議通過，你有什麼看法？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個部分現在世界各國有各種型態，剛剛提到有在國會的，也有獨立的，也有司法型的，也有行政型的，差不多有四種，除了美國和英國以外，大部分大概都是在國會，其他最主要的都是獨立，因為獨立就不會受政治的干擾。"],["林委員德福：我知道啊，問題是過去現在的執政黨一直主張的就是廢監察院、廢考試院，所以才有人提出這樣一個條文啊，要是條文通過，審計長，你有什麼看法？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們是希望比照世界各國大部分的國家，能夠獨立於三權之外，這樣才能夠超然獨立。"],["林委員德福：審計長，本席認為強化審計功能能夠強化政府機關經費的有效運用，以促進政府整個財政透明，增進公共利益，提升政府財政效能，看緊納稅人的荷包，像AI人工智慧科技發展非常迅速，本席也從媒體報導得知，由審計官導入AI人工智慧，利用AI查弊，比對案件，果然從中發現有一些異常，進而揪出不肖廠商，追回部分政府預算。審計部在115年預算打算推動AI審計資料中心的發展計畫，請陳審計長您來說明目前AI人工智慧在審計方面的應用，未來若是您繼續來擔任審計長，會如何來強化應用AI人工智慧追查弊案，以協助第一線審計官的辦案？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：報告委員，我剛剛在報告我們未來的方向，第一個就是智慧審計，第一個方向就是智慧審計，我們的人力非常少，所有的審計室只有十幾個人，十幾個人要審計像彰化縣或者是這種……只有十幾個人，所以要用的就是AI，AI可以當我們的審計助理，可以當我們的審計顧問，這是這樣，但這是協助我們的行政作業，主要的判斷還是審計人員要去做判斷。但是現在我們的查帳是用數位比對，剛剛委員所指示的那幾項大部分都是用數位，就是用資料庫和資料庫比對，像我們查出法院已經判刑的廠商要停權，我們發現一千多家都沒有停權，所以才會發生普悠瑪還是太魯閣那個案子啊；或者我們用數位比對發現違標兩千多件，我們都移送檢調，我們會用這樣來看，有的像這個被法院停權、要沒收押標金的，我們收回一億六千多萬，所以這些都是數位，用AI來幫忙，用數位還有流程自動化，每天做掃描。所以智慧審計或AI審計或數位審計，對我們審計人力會有很大的幫助，對我們審計人員有很大的幫助，我們會發展，所以剛剛委員也有提到AI審計資料中心是我們115年主要的工作。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。","針對107年中選會前主委陳英鈐違法失職，重新刊登公投的公告、啟動第二預備金，多花了人民納稅錢931萬，監察院已經認定嚴重損及政府的公信力，憲法法庭已決議不受理，懲戒法院也多次駁回再審，而最近一次再審是114年4月24日上訴駁回。本席認為這是違法公告，官員犯錯卻是用百姓納稅錢來付錢，中選會前主委陳英鈐必須負起他的責任，中選會不當的支出應事後剔除、追繳。已經多少年過去了，從107年到現在，陳英鈐一再逃避該負起的賠償責任，本席希望審計部不要忘記處理陳英鈐，你認為最慢何時可以把錢追回來，你是不是給本席一個明確的時間？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：報告委員，委員非常關心這個案子，謝謝委員關心這個案子。我們也注意到114年以後陳英鈐沒有再上訴，我們就去了公文給中選會，我們說陳英鈐這個部分要處理，中選會回我一個意見，說那是委員會決議的、不是陳英鈐一個人做的，初步他回我們這個意見，我們的同仁還在研究如何對這個委員會所做的決議再做處理，這個委員關心的我們也非常關心。"],["林委員德福：推給所有委員共同來決定，這個實在是很扯！而且……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：中選會是這樣回復我們。"],["林委員德福：我認為那是推託之詞……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會再從一些……我們現在……"],["林委員德福：審計長，我要看你哪時候能夠追出來，因為這是給社會一個交代，這都是民脂民膏，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，我們也是這樣認為，這個也對整個社會大家以後的行政……大概都依法行政。"],["林委員德福：本來就是應該要依法行政。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：大家能依法行政……如果大家都依法行政，法律上有什麼問題就處理法律的問題。"],["林委員德福：審計長，不能透過委員會來掩飾、掩蓋，老百姓大家都在看，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我們還在繼續追。"],["林委員德福：你身為審計長，當然你有責任、有義務，而且屢次一直駁回，這部分他身為一個主委不必負擔嗎？他有相對的權力就要有相對應該負的責任。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們也在探討懲戒法院判他20萬，他自己也離職了、政治責任也處理了，這樣是不是就是他的責任？"],["林委員德福：931萬變20萬，這樣可以接受嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，這個是委員的意見，我們用這樣的意見和中選會談，還在處理中。"],["林委員德福：審計長，我認為這個一定要繼續追，而且我希望你給我一個時間，這是第一點；第二點，光追一個陳英鈐違法失職、濫用預算的案件，花6年以上的時間都還沒有結果，那勞動部就業安定基金濫用預算7,224萬，被追回的那一天我看恐怕更遙遙無期！","本席接著詢問審計部追查勞動部前部長許銘春長期濫用就業安定基金後續的進度，審計部日前揪出包括演唱會、性別平等音樂會、辦理空間裝潢，包括軌道燈的裝設等等，最後決定剔除7,224萬。本席認為不能只用公務預算來歸墊，否則就是全民買單，政府機關要負起應有的責任，針對那些違法失職要繼續來追討，他們濫用預算。審計長，針對就業安定基金預算濫用追討的情形，你認為在未來怎麼樣去防弊，而且針對這個事情你認為應該要怎麼做？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：防弊這部分有幾個面向勞動部已經在改、已經處理，但是我們也在追它的成效如何；再來，基金和公務要切開，關於它切得如何，這個我們都在處理；有一些像裝潢的部分，法院有的已經判了，判決裡面有涉及要沒入所得的部分，勞動部要去請求回來；許銘春許前部長的部分還在司法處理當中；至於那七千多萬要怎麼處理，我們已經請勞動部要逐項查明，勞動部現在在做這方面的處理。"],["林委員德福：審計長，針對各部會裡面要是有雷同、像就業安定基金這類的，我認為不光只有勞動部而已，其他單位一併都要查得清清楚楚的。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝委員，你很深入，我們查出來有57個基金把基金和公務混用，我們希望把它切……因為行政院的規定是要把它劃分清楚，所以這個部分我們已經行文給相關單位要劃分清楚。"],["林委員德福：基金也是人民的血汗錢，不能作為他們自己的私有金庫。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我們都會查，以前大家都說會查公務，現在我們基金也會查、營業也會查、財團法人我們都會查，這個部分我們都在努力。"],["林委員德福：好啦，我希望審計長一定要積極、不能放縱，我認為身為公務人員就要依法行政，今天假使不依法行政，你縱容他會養成他的胃口越來越大。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["林委員德福：所以我希望你好好的去追查這些問題。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是。"],["林委員德福：截至114年9月5日，丹娜絲颱風造成的太陽能光電板受損影響為十二萬一千多片，其中有三萬兩千片經檢修尚可使用、還可再利用，其餘的八萬九千多片需要委託廢棄物廠商來處理，而丹娜絲颱風把太陽能光電板吹壞，也暴露了大型光電案場缺乏防災應變計畫及光電板清除的計畫。審計長，審計部認為能源署收取光電板回收費用作為處理汰役模組之基金，110年到112年未繳回收費大約有1億左右，未繳的比例大約占10%。本席希望審計部持續監督經濟部及早改善、啟動檢討太陽能光電板設備模組回收的費用，以確保未來處理汰役太陽能光電模組之費用來源。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們去查了這個模組費用的問題，到112年應該繳十點多億，但是有將近4億沒繳，我們催能源署要它去繳，現在要處理這些廢棄物可能原來收的費用還不足，還是要請能源署好好檢討光電模組的這部分，因為它沒有想到一陣颱風來會吹壞這麼多，所以當時認為20年後、三十年後才要處理，沒想到就受到風災的損害，因此這部分我們會照委員的意思來處理。"],["林委員德福：審計長，講實在話，這些光電、風電裡面弊端重重，我相信你也很清楚，本席支持穩健的綠能發展，但不希望整個政策本末倒置，漁電共生政策必須落實，關於以養殖為本、綠電加值的原則，當初政府官員把政策講得非常漂亮，但是現實卻是有電無魚！根據審計部報告指出，截至2025年1月底，在已查核的漁電共生案場中，其中有七成多未落實養殖的事實；依審計部統計，全臺完工併網的漁電共生案場一共有393件，卻只有查核122件，其中通過的有37件，而待改善及遭廢止的有85件，未落實養殖者比例占69.67%，主要還是農業結合綠能設施未能符合原來的這些養殖計畫。本席希望審計長承諾漁電共生要持續列為審計部稽查的重點，終結有電無魚的這些亂象，你有沒有什麼看法？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，這個是這樣，那個是我們去看了以後，因為審計的發現，但是我們審計的發現都是根據漁業署的計畫，我們不會自創計畫，漁業署的計畫裡面要有魚，後來我們去看沒有魚，所以我們通知了漁業署，漁業署後來有一些說明，表示他們已經改善了一些，但是我們就照委員的意思，還是要它繼續改善，因為希望有魚，又希望有電，看是否能夠取得雙重得利，我們是希望這樣，但漁業署做的事情是要以魚為主。"],["林委員德福：審計長，包括離岸風電都一樣，因為離岸風電一開始有七成是躉購，躉購就是議價，三成是公開招標，公開招標跟躉購，其價格之差實在是沒有辦法處理，結果躉購以後，我問沈榮津部長，他說那些將來就是要技術移轉，結果人家有申請專利，要技術移轉根本就不可能，都是半成品進來插在海邊，然後風葉裝一裝，那個根本是騙局一場，其實這裡面弊端重重。審計長，我希望你要把這個事情好好的查，因為躉購跟公開招標落差很大，你去把它調出來看，真的那個落差之大。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員，這是一個事實，我們也查了，我們發現國產化的進度都落後，所以……"],["林委員德福：沒有，都是半成品進來啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：但是也發現有的廠商後來要國產化，它也有其意見。"],["林委員德福：審計長，那個都是騙局一場啦！都是半成品進來再下去，風葉插一插，然後躉購一次標20年，20年台電損失9,100億，一年要損失455億，光離岸風電而已，光電還不算喔！所以這些問題應該要查清楚，給社會一個交代。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會繼續追蹤或者繼續查核，這個是委員的……"],["林委員德福：好，我希望審計部要多用一點心。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人陳審計長。","接下來請今天登記第7位、最後一位詢問的李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page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主席在場委員先進列席了政務機關社長官員 會長 工作夥伴媒體集團女士先生有請我們陳審計長被提名麻煩再請被提名的陳審計長"},{"start":31.369,"end":57.632,"text":"總委好 沈記長好稱呼您沈記長 因為您現在就是沈記長對不對沈記長 過去你有沒有聽過 時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變有沒有聽過這句話 有 誰說的誰說的我當然不知道咧 我知道現在極端氣候讓整個 連總統蔣經國先生說的啦蔣經國先生說的 但是通常人家會說有所變 有所不變 請問一下"},{"start":58.732,"end":79.134,"text":"相約四年前我們的審計長被提名的人有沒有改變?沒有嘛 還是你嘛對不對 那我們來看一下那如果人選沒有改變我們看審計法有沒有改變審計法有來選擇有財務審計有績效審計是不是跟以前一樣?對的如果說人沒有改變法律的制度沒有改變"},{"start":80.031,"end":107.56,"text":"那是什麼改變我們審計今天要重新來對您的任命進行同學的行使我們不禁要問要問有改變的地方嗎對不對對人家說財政是肅政之母你同意嗎同意同意好那麼因此呢就你審計的角度來講審計部的權責審計長的最重要的功能就是對於財政來進行審計嗎政府的財政對政府的預算政府的財政擁擠政府的財政當是"},{"start":110.433,"end":137.281,"text":"現在來看新版的財劃法它是我們最主要的改變對不對變化可能會很大今年變化還蠻大的那你對財劃法了解嗎有所了解我們財劃法分成統籌分配稅款對不對一般型補助計劃型補助是不是這樣子那麼新版的財劃法它有哪些改變是不是在中央跟地方我先問你統籌分配稅是哪三個稅"},{"start":142.207,"end":162.38,"text":"所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅有沒有改變?沒有改變嗎?改變的是中央分配給地方的%就更多了嘛所以地方得到統籌分配就增加了嘛那請問中央跟地方的垂直分配改變了但是地方的水平分配根據什麼來分配?"},{"start":163.425,"end":187.965,"text":"根據本來財劃法是應該要跟財政貢獻度嘛新法是這樣但是要法的主要立場是在基本國策沒有錯但是基本上因為這三種稅六都跟非都來看是不是他們的財政貢獻度六都比非六都來的大"},{"start":188.547,"end":216.227,"text":"因為營業稅啊 所得稅啊 貨物稅啊你人多 錢就多 稅就多分配回去也是更多結果這麼一來我們將中央給地方的統統分配增加之後有沒有改善地方水平分配的貧富不均這個可能要好好坐下來談因為呢 規模擴大但是分配的公式以貢獻度來看只是把貧富的差距拉大而已我們再往下看那麼一般性補助款用在哪裡"},{"start":218.595,"end":241.128,"text":"一般是補助人在調製財政營利好包括了教育社福基本設施還有其他的基本支出對不對經常性普遍性基本建設還有維運的性質對不對但是很重要的要能財政均衡請問一下100公斤的人跟50公斤的人誰的飯量比較大"},{"start":242.592,"end":258.37,"text":"所以六都來講他人口多他的基本需求多所以他獲得分配的一般補助一定比其他人口較小的縣市非六都來的多嘛對不對但是中央怎麼樣均衡中央只有用財力的分配"},{"start":259.494,"end":278.51,"text":"中央對你地方需求多的我要給你多你需求較少的就給的少頂多是非六都的財力比較不足我給你的比例比較高可以給到九成如果是六都的你的財力比較好雖然你的需求大我給你的比例就沒有達到九成比較少可能七成是不是這樣"},{"start":279.651,"end":302.25,"text":"但是中央政府只能在一般性補助款透過這樣的小小的方式去調節那基本上一般性補助還是根據你六都跟非都的人口規模來設算所以呢六都當然一般性補助領的多非都的領的少是不是這樣那我們來看那最後最後還剩一個叫計劃型補助那如果照這樣子"},{"start":303.399,"end":321.468,"text":"富者恆富 貧者欲貧那我們怎麼樣去改變這些經濟發展甚至人口較少的非都怎麼提升提升他的財政的貢獻能力我們常說壽人以魚不如壽人以魚給你一尾魚不如給你一根釣竿你同意吧"},{"start":322.208,"end":337.967,"text":"所以計劃型補助是不是說如果你這些財政能力較差的縣市你提出好的計劃型那我中央給你幫助你提升讓你未來的財政改善這是不是中央最重要的調節地方均衡發展的一個手段"},{"start":339.648,"end":362.39,"text":"就像說我們對於有錢人家他不需要太多的支持窮人家的小孩你幫他上進念書他以後出了社會他可以改善他家庭的生活經濟這就是我們的目的請問現在我們目前的新版財化法有沒有辦法擴大中央用計劃型補助來均衡地方發展的這個目標"},{"start":364.418,"end":376.133,"text":"因為計畫性已經看起來因為他的餅這麼大他沒辦法因為就減少很多所以就應該是比較難"},{"start":377.15,"end":403.7,"text":"所以我們看到這個圖統籌分配稅款根據你的財政貢獻度這裡面六都比非都來得強我們再來看一般型補助款飯量大的吃的比飯量少的來得多中央能夠幫助有限最主要能夠調節台灣各縣市的均衡發展就是計劃型補助結果我們新版的財發法雖然從中央拿九道的稅款給地方但是是擴大了都跟非都的差距"},{"start":404.48,"end":430.485,"text":"然後中央給地方的一般性補助又不能縮小還是一樣都比非都拿的多最後非都得以翻身的計劃性補助中央變少了是不是這樣子那我們怎麼辦來我舉個例子那現在我們來看一下中央給地方多了4165億的統籌分配稅款不管水平怎麼分請問地方政府的市權有沒有增加"},{"start":432.59,"end":435.095,"text":"這次採訪還沒談到沒有談到 簡單講就像我們辦個團善"},{"start":437.715,"end":465.812,"text":"50人要吃一個暗桶給你一個買菜的錢結果呢 人數沒增加 菜錢增加你覺得說這檔菜要怎麼辦是不是要比較稠稠的 對嗎要快一點快一點所以就你們審計的角度如果地方政府獲得更多的統籌分配 稅款的分配但是要做的事情 事權沒有增加你覺得你審計的任務是不是更加重要對 那我來請教一下 我們常常說啊"},{"start":466.584,"end":476.106,"text":"有錢花跟盡量花這是我們最受歡迎的兩種花你知道還有第三種花嗎叫做拚命花"},{"start":477.327,"end":501.507,"text":"現在台北市政府本來財政就比較好這是財化法下去的結果他又多了四五百億請問一下 你的審計單位有同時增加對台北市政府多了這麼多錢他不只是有錢花 他不只是盡量花他還拼命花那事情沒成功 錢變多了會產生什麼問題 亂開嘛那審計是不是要防止地方政府亂開這是我們的主軸"},{"start":505.39,"end":528.401,"text":"那請問一下 那麼我說時代在變 環境在變 潮流在變但是審計黨沒有變 審計法沒有變但是地方都的財源變多了 事情沒有增加請問審計部要不要對這些地方未來多了那麼多錢 怎麼花 要嚴加審計是不是對那你們有增加人手嗎沒有沒有 那怎麼辦"},{"start":529.912,"end":556.158,"text":"我現在是用科技AI 數位這樣來做也要地方這樣來做如果必要的時候我們會請證人好 我們來看一下這是你113年的審計報告他說直轄市跟縣市政府有計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況管理作業欠當 是不是這樣子"},{"start":556.958,"end":572.144,"text":"有這樣的現象結果呢 我們的事前分配 地方的事情沒有增加執行的量沒有增加你的審計能力也沒有增加結果給他更多的錢那你覺得你要怎麼樣在新版參法法之下做好你對地方政府的審計"},{"start":573.191,"end":597.658,"text":"我們還是會盡到我們的主軸啦但是這是我們的審計的主要主軸這個我們會再來加強這個監督的力道所以如果事權隨著裁員來移轉到地方政府譬如說本來學校的電費是中央補助現在地方政府錢多了電費自己出對你們審計作為來講是不是比較合理"},{"start":599.835,"end":622.851,"text":"我們是準備 像這個部分我們要進行聯合審計 科技審計那我們再來問一下 之前我請教過你屏東縣的自來水普及率 電底 全國是95%台北市是99.83% 屏東只有41%那時候我跟你請教這個普及率問題呢屏東圍22個縣是排最後面的"},{"start":623.411,"end":652.396,"text":"所以我就請教 上次您說到說相較於其他縣市持續提高屏東縣的自來水普及的預算這個效益是最好的 你是不是同意同意 完全同意所以屏東特別需要中央多的資源來協助提高它的自來水的改善讓人民的生活品質提高對不對對好 那我先問你這次財化法公布之後有九個縣市貨配的補助更少了 有沒有對屏東是不是其中之一"},{"start":654.39,"end":664.415,"text":"他是行政院有出來答應說不會低於114那是行政院的說法那請問這個錯誤怎麼發生我們看一下"},{"start":665.82,"end":682.893,"text":"這個是低級錯誤啊裁判法16條之一在黨提出的法案本島19縣市跟離島3縣市通通以22個做分母結果呢本島的部分有0.28無法分配離島的部分有高達99.8%無法分配你覺得這個錯誤是不是很可笑"},{"start":686.084,"end":711.963,"text":"這個立法上有稍微沒有注意到那如果說全國像屏東縣需要中央大力支持自來水普及的中央的錢變少了跑到其他的有錢的都去了那請問我要問你在這個財化法就算這個錯誤公式修改之後你覺得改過之後的財化法對於我們目前無自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期有沒有受到影響"},{"start":713.106,"end":737.725,"text":"中央還有錢做嗎這個前瞻第五期啊前瞻第五期最近通過他大概是無知來水的這個部分大概有一百多億我是希望能夠幫忙屏東因為屏東啊那要中央有錢啊中央沒有錢怎麼幫忙屏東因為那個預算已經過了那個經濟部州106億啊前瞻已經過了你說106億地方要不要配合款"},{"start":742.663,"end":761.592,"text":"地方大概都一般都要有配合款結果我們屏東在裁判修改之後我們貨配額數少於修法之前就算中央的錢沒有減少我們地方的能力變少了我們的嚴管工程怎麼做我們戶外用戶的外線工程怎麼做你覺得有什麼辦法"},{"start":762.947,"end":786.474,"text":"如果未來屏東自來水改善不理想你省紀部要不要來糾正屏東縣政府還是要糾正經濟部因為是這樣吼因為無住來水地區的改善屬於住來水公司我們會糾正經濟部住來水住來水公司但是巧戶難為無米之炊啊我們錢變少了我們怎麼樣來如期完成"},{"start":787.794,"end":809.285,"text":"因為屏東是低的我看當時委員執行我的時候我看那個比例其實那個比例經過了一年增加不大那是以前有錢明年開始沒有錢所以我是希望這106億經濟部盡量用在屏東用鼓勵的機制幫忙屏東這些人能夠去接管"},{"start":809.933,"end":828.706,"text":"謝謝啦 省局長 感謝你啦但是屏東縣被分配到的錢變少了作為經濟部繼續支持 全力支持我們的自備款 配合款還是不夠來 我們看下一題我們看到新聞報導說行政院要發津貼每一胎補足到10萬你覺得發津貼可以改善生育率嗎"},{"start":829.731,"end":853.361,"text":"就是因為我們少數化是一個國安問題啦是蠻低的各種多元方式都要嘗試這是一種嘗試的方式我們非常因為我們審計的時候我審計了他四年他終於有提出說要一個花十萬啦我認為我跟你講你們自己審計部在2016年你們點名屏東山鄉鎮我們有鄉鎮做的一些生育補貼"},{"start":858.203,"end":887.033,"text":"第四胎甚至大方送到10萬結果呢 屏東一樣人口沒有增加甚至還繼續減少感覺上 前面的做法有沒有效果前果都有這樣的一個現象所以有婚禮宅也出來了有一個補助10萬也出來這時候 這都是我們當時查所提出的建議你們建議 建議10萬嗎還是說養一個小孩所以統計要668萬要多元來處理這些事多元 來 我們看一下學者有研究過"},{"start":888.117,"end":913.482,"text":"中央研究院的基金所的研究員說啊2023年如果獲得分配100萬以上在往後的6年生育率呢會提高到多了0.07啊不要說10萬啦 給你100萬喔你家裡生的沒零點一個啦但是如果給你1000萬的話呢每100個家庭就會多25個小孩好一點 你覺得政府有可能給生小孩的家庭每一個多1000萬嗎"},{"start":914.571,"end":929.106,"text":"我對政府的財政衝擊很大所以要多元方式所以說我請問一下低生育率問題不是要不要生結婚要怎麼生"},{"start":930.067,"end":944.483,"text":"所以就有學的說低生育率的關鍵密碼不是不生小孩是不結婚那你覺得如果我們結婚每一個人第一次結婚政府給他上五十萬的大紅包你覺得怎麼樣 有機會嗎因為這樣來結婚嗎這個是一種"},{"start":949.009,"end":961.252,"text":"謝謝委員 我們的看法和你一樣因為我們台灣的主女大部分都是分生主女96%都分生主女所以結婚是很重要的與其鼓勵生育不如鼓勵結婚兩個都有鼓勵"},{"start":968.052,"end":990.988,"text":"你給我十萬 我記得要持到十八歲對不對 但是我就不要結婚啊你如果給我五十萬 我來結婚結的金錢 我自己來處理好 所以目前呢 我們說啊結婚大禮包至少要五十萬如果現在是出十萬啦是不是剛做回來剛好所以說政府說你叫我們的產婦啊 你要做回來政府給你十萬塊做回來你覺得民眾是不是感覺剛好窩心"},{"start":996.571,"end":1020.008,"text":"這個是 也是一種方式啦這個可以啊 雙管齊下雙管齊下 做回來 給你十萬塊做回來高利貸你盡量這好 那是國安問題啊好 我們繼續往下看那少子化的對策 你看一看0到6歲的國家養友善家庭的職場兒童健康的權益保障友善的生育配套從107到114審計報告覺得有沒有太"},{"start":1024.735,"end":1044.883,"text":"有沒有效果 有沒有建議有 剛剛委員講他這個因為花掉國家從107到114花掉7000多億所以我們都有損失所以包括委員講的我們說結婚也要鼓勵有人笑我說你這個老金好像來 那我再問一個話題有沒有聽過明月"},{"start":1048.291,"end":1066.883,"text":"有沒有聽過民怨 民怨幾時有八九問青天啊民怨何處來 借問審計官為什麼民怨跟審計有關 你知不知道我們以這次的風災好了啦我們現在呢往下看 你來看這處店 整個的處鴨拍一天 整個的香料料"},{"start":1070.629,"end":1097.402,"text":"我們站在政府的角度我們統帥補助十萬啊破一坑的我們補助一千現在我們補助百分之百 補助十萬你覺得合理嗎這個要看政府的財政能力啦但是 最多就十萬而已嘛 盡量因為這些啊 都受災戶 要盡量幫助他們那 我跟你講 現在地方遇到的情況行政官員說 你如果破一坑我給你省省的面積一千十萬塊我才補助一萬"},{"start":1098.923,"end":1119.537,"text":"你要是破了很多坑 面積超過八成 九成你要全部種完 我給你補走十萬但是請教一下 我出現破一坑 我全部種完政府可不可以補走我十萬 有沒有不合理我的房子這麼老舊了 雖然破了一個洞 面積未達五成我全部把它換新 你政府是不是要補走我百分之百 補走我十萬"},{"start":1120.956,"end":1139.75,"text":"這一個部分 自宅的這一個部分我們內政部的規定會受到你們審計人員在伺候審計的影響如果說今天內政部說關台你破一坑 還是全沒現料料你只要全沒反芯 你全沒反芯報告委員 我們的審計是根據"},{"start":1143.849,"end":1166.434,"text":"那個 內政部或者國土署提出來的計畫來審計但是他的計畫會受到你們審計的思維影響我來講啦 減少民怨喔 別用我們政府的心血來輸課我一間40年的老廚 就算我破一天沒超過三成我全部種完 我欠你五十四十萬我要求政府補助我 足夠補助 十萬有幾分嗎"},{"start":1167.614,"end":1194.8,"text":"所以說民怨怎麼來 審計人員的思維跟行政的思維要改變 我們來看一下現在的基層怎麼樣 多做多錯 寫報告跑法院其實我們來看一下 你們審計現在在追蹤啊說要出一條陷阱啊 那風太多了過呢 申請案走走風太已經過很久了 申請案走多了 這樣合理嗎這樣合理嗎 因為風太多了 很多人要申請嘛要越來越少 你覺得這樣哪一個合理"},{"start":1197.075,"end":1225.294,"text":"這個應該風...風太過...咳...咳...心情比較正常因為風太多了過 市議會都請不上工啊我就是想要還 我也找不上工所以聽到有工來做的時候 很多人就來請補助啊所以我要說的是說 審計的思維要改 往下看所以檢討監督級評論模式期望審計 要體察民意不要用政府的採購的思維來要求人民配合政府的思維來爭取政府的補助 所以最後"},{"start":1225.834,"end":1233.804,"text":"最後希望這三年的一個主張請我們沈記長回去好好研究再給本席一個回應好不好可以好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":635,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（16時46分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳審計長被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長好。稱呼您審計長，因為您現在就是審計長，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長，過去你有沒有聽過「時代在變、環境在變、潮流在變」？有沒有聽過這句話？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：誰說的？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：誰說的我倒是不知道；我知道現在極端氣候讓整個都變……"],["鍾委員佳濱：前總統蔣經國先生說的啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：蔣經國先生說的啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是通常人家會說，有所變、有所不變，請問一下，相較於4年前，我們的審計長被提名人有沒有改變？沒有嘛！還是你嘛！對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，如果人選沒有改變，那我們來看審計法有沒有改變？審計法規定的權責有財務審計、有績效審計，是不是跟以前一樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果人沒有改變，法律的制度沒有改變，那是什麼改變了？我們今天要重新對您的任命進行同意權行使，我們不禁要問有改變的地方，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人家說財政是庶政之母，你同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，因此，就您審計的角度來講，就審計部的權責，審計長最重要的功能就是對政府財政來進行審計，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，政府的預算、政府的財政永續。"],["鍾委員佳濱：關於政府的財政，現在新版的財劃法是我們最主要的改變，對不對？變化有沒有很大？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：今年變化還滿大的！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那您對財劃法了解嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有所了解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們財劃法分成統籌分配稅款、一般型補助、計畫型補助，是不是這樣子？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那新版的財劃法有哪些改變？我先問你，統籌分配稅是包含哪三種稅？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就是所得稅、營業稅、貨物稅，這有沒有改變？沒有改變嘛！還是這三種稅。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：改變的是中央分配給地方的趴數就更多了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以地方得到的統籌分配稅款就增加了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問，中央跟地方的垂直分配改變了，但是地方的水平分配是根據什麼來分配？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：本來財劃法是應該要謀……"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據它的財政貢獻度嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，新法是這樣規定的，但是法的主要立場基於憲法的基本國策是謀全國經濟……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，但是基本上這三種稅以六都跟非都來看，以他們的財政貢獻度來看，是不是六都比非六都來得大？因為就營業稅、所得稅、貨物稅來看，你人多錢就多、稅就多，分配回去也是更多，結果這麼一來，我們將中央給地方的統籌分配增加之後，有沒有改善地方水平分配的貧富不均？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個可能要好好坐下來談。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為規模擴大，但是分配的公式以貢獻度來看，只是把貧富的差距拉大而已。","我們再往下看，一般性補助款用在哪裡？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般性補助款在調劑財政盈虛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，包括教育、社福、基本設施還有其他的基本支出，具經常性、普遍性、基本建設還有維運的性質，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有一個很重要的就是要能財政均衡，請問一下，100公斤的人跟50公斤的人相比，誰的飯量比較大？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：100公斤。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是100公斤的人嘛！以六都來講，它的人口多，它的基本需求多，所以它獲得分配的一般補助一定比其他人口較少的縣市、非六都來得多，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是中央怎麼樣均衡？中央只有用財力的分配，中央對地方需求多的就給得多，對需求較少的就給得少，頂多是因為非六都的財力比較不足，所以給的比例比較高，可以給到九成。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果是六都，因為你的財力比較好，雖然你的需求大，我給你的比例就沒有達到九成，會比較少，可能是七成，是不是這樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是中央政府只能在一般性補助款透過這種小小的方式去調節，基本上，一般性補助還是根據六都跟非六都的人口規模來設算，所以六都當然一般性補助領得多，非六都的就領得少，是不是這樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看，最後還剩一個叫計畫型補助，如果照這樣子，富者恆富、貧者愈貧，那我們怎麼樣去改變，怎麼讓這些經濟發展甚至人口較少的非都提升，提升它財政的貢獻能力？我們常常說授人以魚不如授人以漁，就是說給你一尾魚不如給你一根釣竿，你同意吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以計畫型補助是不是說如果這些財政能力較差的縣市提出好的計畫型，那我中央就給你、幫助你提升，讓你未來的財政改善，這是不是中央調節地方均衡發展最重要的一個手段？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就像有錢人家不需要太多的支持，對窮人家的小孩，你幫助他上進、念書，他以後出了社會就可以改善他家庭的生活、經濟，這就是我們的目的嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問我們目前的新版財劃法有沒有辦法擴大中央用計畫型補助來均衡地方發展的這個目標？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：計畫型看起來它的餅就這麼大，因為就減少了很多，所以應該是比較難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看到這個圖，統籌分配稅款是根據你的財政貢獻度，這裡面六都比非六都來得強；我們再來看一般性補助款，飯量大的吃的比飯量少的來得多，中央能夠幫助的有限；最主要能夠調節臺灣各縣市均衡發展的就是計畫型補助，結果我們新版的財劃法雖然從中央拿9兆的稅款給地方，但是卻是擴大了都跟非都的差距，然後中央給地方的一般性補助又不能縮小，還是一樣，都比非都拿得多，最後讓非都得以翻身的計畫型補助，中央變少了，是不是這樣子？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們怎麼辦？來，我舉一個例子，現在我們來看一下，中央給地方多了4,165億的統籌分配稅款，不管水平怎麼分，請問地方政府的事權有沒有增加？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這一次財劃法沒談到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有談到，簡單講，就像我們辦一個團膳，50個人要吃一頓晚餐，給你一筆買菜的錢，結果人數沒增加，菜錢增加了，你覺得這頓菜要怎麼辦？是不是要辦得豐盛一點，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是速度要快一點？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以就你們審計的角度，如果地方政府獲得更多統籌分配稅款的分配，但是要做的事情、事權沒有增加，你覺得你審計的任務是不是更加重要？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我來請教一下，我們常常說有錢花跟儘量花，這是我們最受歡迎的兩種花，你知道還有第三種花嗎？就叫做拚命花。現在臺北市政府本來財政就比較好，這次財劃法下去的結果讓它又多了四、五百億，請問一下，你的審計單位有同時增加對臺北市政府的審計嗎？它多了這麼多錢，它不只是有錢花、它不只是儘量花，它還拚命花，事情沒增加，錢變多了，這樣會產生什麼問題？就是胡亂花嘛！那審計單位是不是要防止地方政府胡亂花？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是我們的職責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，時代在變、環境在變、潮流在變，審計長沒有變、審計法沒有變，但是地方、都的財源變多了，事情沒有增加，請問審計部要不要對這些地方未來多了那麼多錢怎麼花嚴加審計？是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有增加人手嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，那怎麼辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們現在是用科技、AI、數位來做，也要在地方這樣來做，如果必要的時候，我們會請增員額。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，這是113年的審計報告，其中提到直轄市和縣市政府有計畫實施成效執行率偏低的情況、管理作業欠當，是不是這樣子？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有這樣的現象。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果我們的事權分配，地方的事情沒有增加，執行的量能沒有增加，你的審計人力也沒有增加，結果給它更多的錢，你覺得你要怎麼樣在新版財劃法之下做好你對地方政府的審計？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們還是會盡到我們的職責，這是我們審計的主要職責，我們會再來加強監督的力道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果事權隨著財源來移轉到地方政府，譬如本來學校的電費是中央補助，現在地方政府錢多了，電費要自己出，對你們審計作業來講是不是比較合理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：像這個部分我們準備要進行聯合審計、科技審計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們再來問一下，之前我請教過你，屏東縣的自來水普及率墊底，全國是95%，臺北市是99.83%，屏東只有41%，那時候我跟你請教過普及率問題，屏東為22個縣市排最後面的，所以我就請教你，上次你說到相較於其他縣市，持續提高屏東縣自來水普及的預算效益是最好的，你是不是同意？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全同意，所以屏東特別需要中央多的資源來協助，提高它的自來水改善，讓人民的生活品質提高，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在問你，這次財劃法公布之後，有9個縣市獲配的補助更少了，屏東是不是其中之一？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院有出來答應說不會低於114年度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是行政院的說法，請問這個錯誤怎麼發生的？我們看一下，這個是低級錯誤，財劃法第十六條之一，在野黨提出的法案，本島19個縣市和離島3個縣市統統以22個做分母，結果本島的部分有0.2%無法分配，離島的部分有高達99.8%無法分配，你覺得這個錯誤是不是很可笑？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個在立法上有稍微沒有注意到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果全國像屏東縣需要中央大力支持自來水普及的，中央的錢變少了，跑到其他有錢的都去了，請問就算財劃法在這個錯誤公式修改之後，你覺得改過之後的財劃法，對於我們目前無自來水地區供水改善計畫的第五期有沒有受到影響，中央還有錢做嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個前瞻第五期最近通過了，無自來水的部分大概有一百多億，我是希望能夠幫忙屏東，因為屏東……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那要中央有錢，中央沒有錢怎麼幫忙屏東？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為那個預算已經過了，經濟部106億的部分，前瞻已經通過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：等一下，你說的106億地方要不要配合款？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：地方一般都要有配合款。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果我們屏東在財劃法修改之後獲配的額數少於修法之前，就算中央的錢沒有減少，我們地方的能力變少了，我們的延管工程怎麼做，我們戶外用戶的外線工程怎麼做，你覺得有什麼辦法？如果未來屏東的自來水改善不理想，審計部要不要來糾正屏東縣政府，還是要糾正經濟部？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為無自來水地區的改善屬於自來水公司，我們會糾正經濟部自來水公司，也會請自來水公司……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是巧婦難為無米之炊，我們的錢變少了，我們怎麼樣來如期完成？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為屏東是低的，當時委員質詢我的時候，我看到那個比例其實經過了一年增加不大……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是以前有錢，明年開始沒有錢了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以我希望這106億經濟部儘量用在屏東，用鼓勵的機制幫忙屏東這些人能夠去接管。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝審計長，感謝你，但是屏東縣被分配到的錢變少了，就算經濟部繼續支持、全力支持，我們的自備款、配合款還是不夠。","我們看下一題，我們看到新聞報導說行政院要發津貼，每一胎補足到10萬，你覺得發津貼可以改善生育率嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為少子化是一個國安問題，生育率也是滿低的，各種多元方式都要嘗試，這是一種嘗試的方式。我們在審計的時候，我記得這四年，它終於有提出一胎要發10萬啦！我認為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有效？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有沒有效總是一個獎勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講，你們自己審計部在2016年點名屏東33個鄉鎮，我們鄉鎮有做一些生育補貼，第四胎甚至大方送到10萬，結果屏東一樣，人口沒有增加，甚至還繼續減少，感覺上這樣的作法有沒有效果？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：全國都有這樣的現象，所以婚育宅也出來，一胎補助10萬也出來，這個都是我們當時查核所提出的建議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們建議10萬嗎？還是養一個小孩統計說要668萬啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們沒有說要增加，要多元來處理這些事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多元。我們看一下，學者有研究過，中央研究院經濟所的研究員2023年說，如果獲得分配100萬以上，在往後的6年生育率會提高到多0.07個，別說給10萬了，給你100萬也增加不了0.1個；但如果給你1,000萬的話，每100個家庭就會多25個小孩，這好一點，你覺得政府有可能給生小孩的家庭每一個多1,000萬嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個對政府財政衝擊很大，所以要多元方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我請問一下，低生育率問題不是要不要生，而是沒有結婚要怎麼生？所以就有學者說低生育率的關鍵密碼不是不生小孩，而是不結婚。你覺得如果結婚每一個人第一次結婚，政府送他50萬的大紅包，你覺得怎麼樣？有機會嗎？他們會因此結婚嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝委員，我們的看法和你一樣，因為臺灣的子女大部分都是婚生子女，96%都婚生子女，所以讓他結婚是很重要的，這也是鼓勵的一種。"],["鍾委員佳濱：與其鼓勵生育，不如鼓勵結婚……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：兩個都要鼓勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為你給我10萬，但我要養小孩到18歲，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我就不結婚，如果是給50萬讓我結婚，多少生小孩的事情我自己來處理。所以目前我們說結婚大禮包至少要50萬，現在是出10萬，這是不是拿來坐月子剛好？所以政府說只要產婦要坐月子，政府給你10萬塊坐月子，你覺得民眾是不是會覺得窩心？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這也是一種方式，可以雙管齊下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：雙管齊下，給你10萬塊坐月子，鼓勵盡量生育，好！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為能解決少子化，那是國安問題，政府要投入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：改善產婦的生活品質，好，我們繼續往下看。你看一看少子化對策，例如0到6歲國家養、友善家庭的職場、兒童健康權益保障、友善的生育配套，從107到114年，審計報告覺得有沒有效果？有沒有建議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有！如剛剛委員講的，從107到114年花掉國家七千多億，所以我們都有審計……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：包括委員講的，我們說結婚也要鼓勵，有人笑我說你這個腦筋好像……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再問一個話題，有沒有聽過民怨？明月幾時有，把酒問青天啊！但是現在換我來講：「民怨何處來，借問審計官」，為什麼民怨跟審計有關你知道嗎？我們以這次風災來看好了，你看鄉下的屋頂破一個洞和整個屋頂都翻起來，如果站在政府的角度，我們最多補助10萬；破一個洞的住戶我們補助一成，屋頂翻起來的我們補助100%、補助10萬，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這要看政府的財政能力，但是能儘量幫……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最多就10萬而已嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這些都是受災戶，要儘量幫助他們。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講現在地方上遇到的情況，行政官員說如果你是破一個洞，我算一算面積僅達一成，10萬塊我才補助1萬；如果你是破很多洞，面積超過八成、九成，你想要全部翻修，我給你補助10萬，但是請教一下我屋頂破一個洞，我想要全部翻修，政府可以補助我10萬嗎？有沒有不合理？我的房子這麼老舊了，雖然破了一個洞，面積未達五成，我全部把它換新，政府是不是要補助我百分之百、補助我10萬？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：住宅的部分，內政部或者國土署……"],["鍾委員佳濱：內政部的規定會受到你們審計人員事後審計的影響，如果今天內政部說，不管你破了一個洞，還是全部損壞，只要全部翻新，我就補助你10萬。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：報告委員，我們的審計是根據內政部或者國土署提出來的計畫來審計，我們沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是他的計畫會受到你們審計的思維影響，我來說……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我們有在改變。"],["鍾委員佳濱：減少民怨不要用我們政府的審計來思考，我一間40年的老房子就算破了一個洞沒有超過三成，我全部換花了不只40萬，我要求政府足額補助我10萬有過分嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不過分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說民怨怎麼來？審計人員的思維跟行政的思維要改變，現在基層多做多錯、寫錯報告跑法院，其實你們審計現在在追蹤房損補助怎麼會颱風剛過去申請案件比較少，颱風已經過去很久了，申請案件多合理嗎？這樣合理嗎？應該是颱風過後會有很多人來申請，後來會越來越少，你覺得這樣哪一個合理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：應該颱風過去了，申請案件多比較合理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛好相反，因為颱風剛過去，四處都請不到工，我就算要翻新也找不到工，所以等到漸漸有工來做的時候，很多人就會來申請補助了，所以我才說審計的思維要改。檢討監督及評鑑模式，期望審計要體察民意，不要用政府的採購思維來要求人民，配合政府的思維來爭取政府的補助。","最後，希望這三點的主張，請審計長回去好好研究，再給本席一個回應，好不好？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝委員的督促，我們審計的文化已經在慢慢改變，所以會照委員的意思來改變組織文化。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人陳審計長，謝謝。","接下來請林德福委員詢問，李坤城委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},{"id":"163786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a13958ba9b8d77a626675a92108cb222197a2d3359dbf60a5987f5f2364352bfb7cb845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"16:15:41 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續任了老實講 英文叫做To my surprise我有一點詫異"},{"start":57.993,"end":83.969,"text":"你自己感覺怎麼樣賴總統在提名你的時候你心裡是什麼心理我因為想休息了所以沒有續任的打算原來沒有續任打算對 因為有替國家做一點事情已滿足了所以是有點驚喜"},{"start":86.547,"end":108.303,"text":"尊感還是有責任但是在審計部他有他審計的價值他可以為國家為人民做一點事所以你是驚喜驚喜不一定就很難形容"},{"start":111.822,"end":128.34,"text":"驚訝 驚訝不太像驚訝啦也不太說歡喜啦就是好像責任還沒有那個彈珠還沒有卸下我是有點驚訝啦因為在比如說疫苗的事情 雞蛋的事情你們的單位很敢提出一些數字很好"},{"start":131.408,"end":157.969,"text":"但是後來也沒有很驚訝因為你也是高高舉舉輕輕放下你的用事請辭也都是四平八穩也不太敢去得罪黨黨變成這樣了我們來看喔我們來看比如說最大條的事情最該你應該去auditing的就是卓榮泰院長他怎麼可以不依法行政"},{"start":159.318,"end":185.605,"text":"立法院我們韓院長這麼辛苦在主持垂直一敲三讀通過的法案他為什麼可以不編預算去年的總預算已經這樣編了已經這樣編了 禁法補償不列今年警察人員的待遇條例警校的一個他的退休的提高特別是軍人"},{"start":188.103,"end":197.871,"text":"每個月多3萬塊的經營條例他不變審計部就應該講話啦這個還在立法院的預算審理前請問你 你有沒有事情審理"},{"start":204.963,"end":233.418,"text":"我們沒有事前審議的失蹤審議沒有失蹤審議因為這個還在還沒有經過大案通過大案通過我們有會議警會那個這個還在大案的 這個是尊重大案的審議前我就問你 今年的預算114年他不按照不依法編列進場補償進場補償 你要怎麼辦這個部分 已經事後了"},{"start":234.792,"end":258.328,"text":"這個部分 大院有意見 他已經追加預算了追加預算 把你砍掉以後再追加 還是砍掉啦他好像追加預算有進化補償喔對不對 還是砍掉啦所以我的意思是說 你都沒有角色啊我不能跳來最前面 因為這個是憲法體制所以是什麼 這個叫做違法"},{"start":259.891,"end":283.354,"text":"違背憲法 違背預算法這個是立法案編 行政院在編的時候可能要稍微注意到這個法律上的一個規定啦老實請問你嘛 他這樣編有沒有違反預算法預算法寫得很清楚嗎三組通過的法案你就要編預算了他是行政院怎麼思考的我不太了解"},{"start":284.799,"end":307.813,"text":"所以就你會被提名在這裡你就很體貼嘛表面上說歐法的手藝 你說歐法的手藝你會做人 老實說是這樣啦齁 這些東西 唉唷你看那個數字 喔 這個執政黨的立委給你拿去死執政黨的立委給你拿去死 在野黨的立委就會疼惜你這不是你厲害的地方咧"},{"start":311.06,"end":328.315,"text":"這個我們都是依法行政 依照我的主責來做這種事情行政院亂砍終結預算 北截預算北截預算砍了650億 終結砍了96%這個東西你會不要生氣一下"},{"start":335.51,"end":358.05,"text":"這個還在他那個補助款還沒有補助辦法還沒有送到大安備查大安要不要備查 大安備查以後我們就會注意這個事情我們來看現在我們都知道中央政府給地方的錢三部分"},{"start":359.144,"end":371.552,"text":"第一大部分就是統籌分配稅款第二一般補助款第三計畫性補助款請問你一般補助款是不是法定義務是不是"},{"start":372.921,"end":399.077,"text":"是不是你告訴我在總預算案裡面是列為在那個法定支出的表裡面是列一般性的它是法定義務支出喔它有這樣列 那個憲法也有稍微現在一直講說財化法有什麼窮者越窮富者越富這個叫因為你把這三個加起來才能算 我們就算一個東西來我們來看下一頁"},{"start":400.697,"end":421.271,"text":"我把這三個東西算進來台北市台北市最多多了450億台北市112年度把這個全部加進來補助的收入加進來全部加進來台北市第3名113年第4名114年第5名台北市哪裏有最多"},{"start":425.216,"end":446.484,"text":"你要一起看啦你不能見數不見零你不能只看所謂統籌分別稅款還有一般補助款還有計畫性補助款這個所以喔這個錢喔 老實講執政黨不必在那裡說裝窮啊根本手上都在執政黨手上因為台下就很清楚啊左手給你錢 用什麼錢拿回來"},{"start":448.204,"end":470.999,"text":"所以這個觀念那個集錢的觀念錢都放在中央的口袋修修都不變到現在為止都不變這個事情老實講讓這個整個來講就這樣這個這只是才化法修法只有離島一小部分然後行政院"},{"start":473.433,"end":488.59,"text":"小蹄大皺 魚目混珠 混水摸魚所以要重新來修這個長髮你知道要怎麼去啦這個 老實講這個你應該記錄欸你們審計部都沒有小事欸你就看立法院的行政在那裡你都沒有小事 你都不講話"},{"start":493.663,"end":520.959,"text":"這個財化法是要中央要謀全國經濟平衡發展阿餅就這麼大所以中央阿地方要做下來大家好好的把做到大家都能夠兼顧到每一個縣市每一個阿你的角色勒你的角色勒請問審計部的角色勒因為這個還在我都在講這個都一些法律規定都還在大院的身上"},{"start":522.813,"end":551.912,"text":"什麼意思我聽不懂就是說補助辦法好像送到他在行政院好像有送來大院來看因為要經過大院被查他現在就這樣子所以逼著我我已經提案了補助辦法現在行政院命令我們要提高位階叫補助條例變成法律案好的你的補助就一定依法不可以隨便補助現在就是完全是中央政府高興的多給你一點不高興的少給你一點"},{"start":553.654,"end":578.427,"text":"砍顏色中央有他全國移住的事情像國防、外交、珠珊、黃紅這些中央也有他要做的事情我們原來是中央地方的錢的分配75對25現在財務法通過以後按照行政院的變化只剩66但是我們目標希望60"},{"start":579.728,"end":607.111,"text":"中央應該變60不是66所以中央還只想抓在手上還有抓補助款所以說起來中央是很有錢的啦所以錢和市要稍微大家談一下中央和地方談一下錢跟市要一起是錢給地方 事情給地方這個沒有人反對但是你不能夠說因為我錢給你的我一份補助款扣回來不可以這樣子啦"},{"start":607.83,"end":622.743,"text":"因為我們地方是租給族行很久了所以大概大家可以接下來談一下那個沈機長你沒有聽出我的我的重點在於你什麼都敢申請你對行政院不申請"},{"start":623.866,"end":651.637,"text":"行政院 行政院這個你答應我是根據答案通過的法例根據答案通過的決議我來做答案通過的預算我來做監督預算執行我是根據答案的一些你告訴我你告訴我你針對行政院做過哪一次的審計去批評他那一件你告訴我一件就好一件行政院一件"},{"start":652.455,"end":672.919,"text":"他的那個正義先導我有通知他說那個行政院正義先導還有什麼這個我跟你講因為行政院的金額不大我要抓的時候是看有時候金額很大他那個我是用電腦在跑他違反規定我們會教他我要跟你講的是114年的總預算"},{"start":681.045,"end":709.307,"text":"鬧的這個樣子他不議法編列我們退回我現在就跟你預告他如果就這樣送過來沒有編軍人的三萬塊的加薪的兩百多億我們一樣退回故事重演故事重演故事重演沒有這個時候114年已經遠過了你就要你就要審計我重點一直在放在這個地方就是大的事情這麼大的事情你跟我講文修文那個很小的事情大的事情"},{"start":710.95,"end":738.864,"text":"他不依法編列已經發生過一年了去年後來他追加預算這時候你要介入你都沒有介入你不敢介入最後我們審計不介入在行政院在行政院或者立法院還在處理的過程中這個我們都尊重行政院的預算編注錢還有尊重大案的審議權請問你會期待六年以後"},{"start":740.839,"end":747.484,"text":"總統再提名你當省局長了嗎我大概沒有這種期待沒有這種期待沒有這種期待你就放膽"},{"start":749.639,"end":776.025,"text":"我跟你講N次了 省市長自己大刀 管工大刀你從我上一次提名的時候 你就這樣講對 一直督促我自己刀 自己刀 別給誰先你督促我 建議我很多啦你給他噗噗噗 行政院長你不要噗啦總結一下那個查核平台就是你建議的現在效果很好耶 二十幾萬人耶這個謝謝啦 我的建議就好聽啦但是我要說自己刀要去噗"},{"start":777.826,"end":797.324,"text":"我們做任何事情還是順眾 還是依法行政好啦 來 我就講 審計部啊 我在看下一頁你真的 為什麼我們這麼多委員會想支持你啊你給我做人咧 我說什麼你都說好啊 好啊 然後你都留一手"},{"start":798.456,"end":822.922,"text":"你都留一手 留一手什麼 你做好人比如說 就業安定基金7000多億喔7200多億嘛 7000多萬喔對不起 7000多萬喔這個喔 你呢 只有檢列收回為什麼不剔除 不一樣喔 檢列跟剔除不一樣喔你檢列 所以他今年又變2億回來啦"},{"start":824.013,"end":851.737,"text":"七千多萬變成給你 欸 納稅人的錢讓那個許民春開演唱會讓謝宜龍去一間廚房 煮個水水水這些錢都是老闆先買單結果你把他什麼 把他檢列 你看 我有做噢 在那一檔才說嗯 不錯 在那一檔說啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵啵"},{"start":852.415,"end":878.323,"text":"我檢列 我六年來檢列一千四百多億目前已經繳酷了兩三百億你檢列有些要剔除 這個要剔除這個用在私人的身上那個法院在做判決那個已經送書法了 也送檢查了這個部分我們都做了"},{"start":880.223,"end":899.69,"text":"我們也在看要求勞動部好好的查明這個到底在你勞動部是否我問你你又回答我問題了你為什麼不敢用剔除因為剔除啊剔除要很明確才是這個救護法明確嗎請民進台演唱會不明確嗎"},{"start":900.96,"end":923.22,"text":"這個救護法他是用勞工性平他是有關這樣的一個情形所以這個救護法我們用就業服務法請勞動部查明這個我們已經進到勞動部我們問了他一下他今天沒有編那麼多 沒有編"},{"start":924.998,"end":936.297,"text":"沒有變料補回去他還在查變糧液補回去喔沒有沒有沒有沒有所以委員剛剛講的那個勞動部給我給我們的說明那這筆錢被我花掉七千多萬怎麼辦"},{"start":939.658,"end":962.031,"text":"他要好好查明以後 如果公務的要經過行政院編列 答應審理通過如果是適用的法官會判 他末日所得那末日所得 那個勞動部要去領回啊 要去請求啊法院判是根據你"},{"start":963.243,"end":990.939,"text":"如果你直接給他剔除法院判就不一樣了他就是要求他配因為沒有經過法院判決我們做任何事情依法行政還要很明確的一些規定你用錢類不用剔除就是老祖國我們大部分就是因為不跟你扯這個來人員政策我也要講這個這個你幾乎也不敢批評"},{"start":992.556,"end":1010.403,"text":"錯誤的人權政策你也不敢批評來我們看離岸風電都要發展因為我們要求local content國產的要自治要多少30%過去要求所以我們本座囤購的電價超過國際4.3塊一度4.3塊20年來我們台電增加的購電成本9100億"},{"start":1020.17,"end":1031.139,"text":"光電大家都知道光電等於另外一個字四個字叫官商勾結光電的成本平均高於國際一度三塊錢我們現在來看"},{"start":1033.171,"end":1053.802,"text":"光電跟風電加起來也幾個百分比而已啊為什麼不用便宜的而且這麼貴現在備轉容量最近這幾天備轉容量只有3.8%到橘燈橘燈下來就是紅燈紅燈下來就黑燈就不看電了這麼嚴重的事情我們沒有看到你省下一步"},{"start":1054.702,"end":1062.994,"text":"這件事情你們先審計一下我們有審計你要這樣的話離岸風電我們有處理過有一些蓋在那個飛行服務區的我們說這不行 這影響飛安"},{"start":1070.363,"end":1091.988,"text":"他要處理掉光電我們查到那個彰化那個是有一點一點差不多要到我們也要他移送夥伴那個台南的那個光電我們也有查所以大概如果我們發現我們損失發現我們一定作為我現在跟你講這個是我跟你我一直在強調的嘛"},{"start":1092.932,"end":1103.73,"text":"就是你現在都在比較技術面去認真你們的人去認真 那可以但是大方向你不敢跑你對行政院不敢跑"},{"start":1104.963,"end":1127.498,"text":"我就告訴你 我現在對你的期待因為你幾可能會過的你幾可能會過的那我就對你期待你應該不會想未來的六年你這次六年已經surprise了所以請你那個大刀準備向行政院 運營部的一些的政策"},{"start":1128.374,"end":1155.598,"text":"人員政策是錯的人員政策是錯的你都不敢批評你講都不敢講我們有提過很多意見你沒有提過像台電的備載容量不夠備載容量有問題他的備用容量有問題我們通通都請他要注意你有沒有講過他的人員政策錯誤有沒有講這句話"},{"start":1157.329,"end":1172.695,"text":"沒有啊那個能源政策 那是政策政策我們要尊重你的前一任的審計長林青龍因為我行這個一般審計部沒有到那個我是根據政策來審計"},{"start":1175.725,"end":1198.249,"text":"我跟你講 你的前一任審計長叫林慶榮他就敢講 你就不敢講這也是你會做官的地方最後一項 因為我時間不多了你知道我們現在對美關稅攤販軍售商售 你知道吧我們現在第一個我們有200億美金的錢都付了東西都沒有來你要不要吹一下"},{"start":1198.874,"end":1224.164,"text":"有 這我們查過了是三千多億 有一些萬了我們有的先互去 互去的他要做實踐 我們刪掉他第二個第二個 我要先 已經到了能不能要求我們的盡量要改為商售因為算在貿易逆差裡面有利於關稅談判 可不可以這個是很大的事情 可能要好好的 國安部好好檢討"},{"start":1233.919,"end":1233.939,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（16時15分）謝謝主席。韓院長以及各位先進。有請陳審計長。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你好。我還是稱你為審計長，因為你現任就是審計長。因為你在審計部的報告裡面，常常有去找出現在政府施政的一些問題，所以執政黨立委對你非常不友善，當你被提名續任時，老實講，英文叫做to my surprise，我有一點詫異，你居然被提名了！你自己感覺怎麼樣？賴總統在提名你的時候，你心裡是怎麼想的？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我想休息了，所以也沒有做續任的打算。"],["賴委員士葆：原來沒有續任的打算？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，因為有替國家做一點事情，已滿足了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是有點驚喜？還是驚訝？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：深感還是有責任，但是在審計部，它有它審計的價值，它可以為國家、為人民做一點事。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你是驚喜？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：也不一定是驚喜，很難形容。"],["賴委員士葆：還是驚訝？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不太像驚訝，也不太像歡喜，好像是責任、擔子還沒有卸下來，還要繼續做。"],["賴委員士葆：我是有點驚訝啦！比如說疫苗的事情、雞蛋的事情，你們單位很敢提出一些數字，很好！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是我們的責任。"],["賴委員士葆：但是後來也沒有很驚訝，因為你也是高高舉起，輕輕放下，你的用字遣詞也都是四平八穩，不太敢去得罪當道，變成是這樣。我們來看，比如說最大條的事情、你最應該去auditing的就是卓榮泰院長，他怎麼可以不依法行政呢？立法院韓院長這麼辛苦在主持，槌子一敲、三讀通過的法案，他為什麼可以不編預算？去年的總預算已經這樣編了，禁伐補償不列；今年警察人員的待遇條例、警消退休的提高，特別是軍人每個月多3萬塊的軍人條例，他也不編！這時候審計部就應該講話了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個預算審議權還在立法院啦！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫還在立法院？請問你有沒有事前審議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我沒有事前審議的……"],["賴委員士葆：事中審議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：也沒有事中審議。"],["賴委員士葆：事後審議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這個還沒有經過大院通過，大院通過後我們會議決，但這個還在大院，這部分我們會尊重大院的審議權。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你，今（114）年的預算，他不依法編列禁伐補償，你要怎麼辦？這個已經事後了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個部分大院有意見，他已經追加預算了。"],["賴委員士葆：追加預算？把你砍掉以後再追加，還是砍掉了啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：他好像追加預算有禁伐補償喔！"],["賴委員士葆：還是砍掉了啊！所以我的意思是，你都沒有角色啊？你這樣……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我不能跳來最前面，因為這個是憲法體制。"],["賴委員士葆：所以這是什麼？這個叫做違法，違背憲法、違背預算法。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院在編的時候可能要稍微注意到法律上的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：我就請問你，他這樣編有沒有違反預算法？預算法寫得很清楚，三讀通過的法案就要編預算。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院是怎麼思考的，我不太了解。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！所以你會被提名的原因就在這裡，你很體貼，表面上批判這樣數字，結果搓得圓圓的，你會做人，老實說是這樣。還有一看到數字，執政黨的立委把你罵得要死，在野黨立委就會疼惜你，這也是你厲害的地方。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們都是依法行政，依照我的職責來做任何事情。"],["賴委員士葆：我們再看行政院亂砍中捷預算、北捷預算，砍了北捷預算650億，砍了中捷96%，這個東西你要不要審計一下？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個補助款的補助辦法還沒有送到大院備查，大院備查了以後，我們就會注意這個事情。"],["賴委員士葆：我們都知道中央政府給地方的錢有三部分：第一、大部分是統籌分配稅款；第二、一般補助款；第三、計畫型補助款。請問一般補助款是不是法定義務？你告訴我，是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：在總預算案裡，它在法定支出表上是列為一般性補助款。"],["賴委員士葆：它是法定義務支出！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它有這樣列，憲法也有稍微……"],["賴委員士葆：現在一直講以後財劃法讓窮者愈窮、富者愈富，對不對？這個叫「烏龍踅桌」、魚目混珠，因為你把這三個加起來才來算，但我們只算一個東西。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["賴委員士葆：我把這三個東西算進來，說臺北市有最多錢，多了450億，結果臺北市112年度把全部加進來、把補助的收入全部加進來，臺北市第三名，113年第四名，114年第五名。臺北市哪裡有最多？你要一起看！你不能見樹不見林，你不能只看統籌分配稅款，還有一般補助款，也還有計畫型補助款，所以老實講執政黨不必在那裡裝窮，這個錢根本都在執政黨手上。因為它現在就很清楚，左手給你錢，右手把錢拿回來，就這樣。所以這個是集「錢」的觀念，錢都放在中央的口袋，口袋暖暖的都不變，到現在為止都不變。這個事情整個來講，財劃法修法只有針對離島一小部分，行政院卻小題大作、魚目混珠、混水摸魚，說要重新來修財劃法，不知道要變怎麼樣？老實講，這個你應該要介入，你們審計部都沒有角色，你就看立法院和行政院在那裡，你都沒有角色、你都不講話！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：財劃法是中央要謀全國經濟平衡發展，餅就這麼大，所以中央和地方要坐下來，大家好好做到能夠兼顧到每一個縣市、每一個……"],["賴委員士葆：你的角色呢？請問審計部的角色呢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這一些法律規定都還在大院的身上。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼意思？我聽不懂。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：就是行政院好像有送補助辦法到大院，因為要經過大院備查。"],["賴委員士葆：它現在就這樣子，所以逼著我已經提案了。補助辦法現在是行政命令，我把它提高位階，叫補助條例，變成法律案，以後補助就一定要依法，不可以隨便補助。現在完全是中央政府高興就多給你一點，不高興就少給你一點，看顏色在補助的。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：中央有它全國一致的事情，像國防、外交、治山防洪這些，中央也有它要做的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：不要忘了，我們原來中央、地方錢的分配是75對25，現在財劃法通過以後，按照行政院的編法只剩66，但是我們的目標是希望60，中央應該變60，而不是66，所以中央還是想抓在手上，還有抓補助款，所以說起來中央是很有錢的啦！主要的錢還在中央。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以錢和事大家要稍微談一下，找中央和地方談一下。"],["賴委員士葆：這個沒有問題，錢跟事要一起……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：考慮。"],["賴委員士葆：是錢給地方，事情也給地方，這個沒有人反對，但是你不能夠說因為我的錢給你了，就把一般補助款扣回來，不可以這樣子啦！這個你要糾正啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們地方自治也執行很久了，所以大概大家可以坐下來談一下。"],["賴委員士葆：審計長，你沒有聽出我的……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我知道、我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：我的重點在於你什麼都敢審計，你對行政院不敢審計。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個都還沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：行政院、行政院、行政院，你不敢審計行政院！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我是根據大院通過的法律，根據大院通過的決議，我來做，它通過的預算，我來監督預算執行，我是根據大院的一些……"],["賴委員士葆：你告訴我、你告訴我，你針對行政院做過哪一次的審計去批評它？哪一件？你告訴我，一件就好，一件、一件！行政院一件！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它的政令宣導，我有通知它說……"],["賴委員士葆：那個是行政院的政令宣導，還有什麼？我跟你講……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為行政院的金額不大，我要抓是看有時候的金額很大，它的部分我是用電腦在跑，如果有違反規定，我們會教它……"],["賴委員士葆：我要跟你講的是114年總預算鬧得這個樣子，它不依法編列，我們退回，我現在就跟你預告，它如果就這樣送過來，沒有編軍人3萬塊加薪的兩百多億，我們一樣退回，故事重演。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個尊重大院的審議權。"],["賴委員士葆：故事重演、故事重演，這個在114年已經演過了，你就要審計，我重點一直放在這個地方，這是大的事情，這麼大的事情，但你跟我講文宣費那個很小的事情，大的事情它不依法編列，在去年已經發生過一年了，後來它追加預算，這時候你要介入，你都沒有介入，你不敢介入。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們審計不介入行政院或者立法院還在處理的過程中，我們都尊重行政院的預算編製權，還有尊重大院的審議權。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，你會期待六年以後總統再提名你當審計長嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我大概也沒有這種期待。"],["賴委員士葆：好，沒有這種期待。沒有這種期待你就放膽，我跟你講N次了，審計長有一把大刀、關公大刀……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你從我上一次提名的時候，你就這樣講，一直督促我。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！這把刀不要讓它生鏽。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你督促我，也建議我很多……"],["賴委員士葆：你砍、砍、砍、砍、砍，但行政院長，你不敢砍啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：總預算的查核平台就是你建議的，現在效果很好，二十幾萬人。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝啦，我的建議你都有聽，但是我要看的是這把刀要砍向行政院長，你不敢啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們做任何事情還是慎重，還是依法行政。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！我就講審計部你真的……為什麼我們這麼多委員會想支持你，你很會做人耶！我們說什麼你都說好、好、好，然後你都留一手、你都留一手！留一手什麼？你要做好人，比如說就業安定基金七千兩百多億……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：萬。"],["賴委員士葆：七千多萬，對不起，是七千多萬，你只有減列收回，為什麼不剔除？不一樣喔，減列和剔除不一樣，你減列，所以它今年又編了兩億回來，七千多萬變成……納稅人的錢讓許銘春開演唱會，讓謝宜容把一間房弄得很漂亮，這些錢都是老百姓買單，結果你把它減列！你看，我有做，在野黨說不錯，在野黨給你鼓掌拍拍手，對不對？結果是什麼？務虛不務實啊！要把它剔除，不是減列。請問你是減列還是剔除？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我減列。"],["賴委員士葆：減列嘛！那就不對了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我六年來減列一千四百多億，目前已經繳庫了兩、三百億。"],["賴委員士葆：你減列，但其實有些要剔除，這個要剔除！這個用在私人的身上，演唱會跟公共政策有什麼關係？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：那個法院在判決，那個已經送司法了，也送監察了，這個部分我們都做了，同時我們也要求勞動部好好查明這個在勞動部到底屬於……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題，你為什麼不敢用剔除？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為剔除要很明確，但是就服法……"],["賴委員士葆：許銘春開演唱會不明確嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：就服法是用勞工性平的……它是有冠一個這樣的情形，所以我們用就業服務法請勞動部查明，這個我們已經盡到……我們也問了勞動部，他們今年沒有編要補回去，他們還在查。"],["賴委員士葆：編2億補回去哦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：沒有、沒有，關於委員剛剛講的，勞動部給我們的說明……"],["賴委員士葆：那這一筆錢被冤枉花掉了七千多萬怎麼辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：他要好好查明以後，如果是公務的……"],["賴委員士葆：誰要付啦？我問你誰要付啦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：要經過行政院編列，大院審議通過；如果是私用的，法官會判他是沒入所得，如果是沒入所得，勞動部要去領回、要去請求啊！"],["賴委員士葆：關於這個東西，法院判是根據你，如果你給他剔除，法院判就不一樣了，就會要求他賠。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為沒有經過法院判決，我們做任何事情依法行政還要很明確的一些規定。"],["賴委員士葆：你用減列不用剔除，就是會做官啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們大部分……因為……"],["賴委員士葆：不跟你扯這個了，接下來我要講能源政策，這個你幾乎也不敢批評，錯誤的能源政策你也不敢批評。我們看離岸風電都要發展，因為我們要求local 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我知道我們審計部其實在秉持三大功能落實監督 強化洞察 邁向潛戰接下來這六年要朝向智慧審計 永續審計 韌性審計跟共振戰志這四大面向來完成可是當我們又有新的一個面向要發展之前我們就回顧舊的這一個三大的目標功能有沒有達成"},{"start":50.424,"end":75.031,"text":"就過去來說的話基本上整個審計部有提出25項跟29項的關鍵議題報告過去這兩年但是這兩年當中其實延續我過去在地方政府在參考你們地方的審計處的報告當中確實都羅列得非常清楚報告寫得洋洋灑灑但是都有一個習慣就是最後的結語都很溫和"},{"start":76.656,"end":84.84,"text":"结局是什么呢 建议改善结局是什么呢 就是通盘检讨感觉上都不痛不痒 隔穴骚痒"},{"start":86.496,"end":109.678,"text":"要說又不敢說 點到為止然後就有一種現象最近稍微有一點改變就是本席當初就要你做一個改善所得分配跟低薪的問題專報的時候你就有直指問題的核心譬如講你那時候就提到產算法的部分有關於這一個前提過於嚴格或者學費的補助的時候比較有感 應該持續推動"},{"start":111.345,"end":127.902,"text":"本席心目中的這個審計報告當中應該要直指核心根據問題如何解決而不是解釋問題所以說我是覺得你接下來要續任這六年的審計長我除了恭喜之外有更高的期待"},{"start":128.763,"end":146.45,"text":"你要如何改變這個文化這非常關鍵啊不要讓人家淪為這個官官相負啊你審計部所扮演的角色就是在做一個內部的監督嘛對不對 情長你有沒有辦法改變這樣子溫柔的文化所以要求"},{"start":148.494,"end":169.813,"text":"會照委員會意見來做 像所得分配委員很關心我們13年來是查後來行政院就成立了經濟發展委員會他裡面把低薪的問題把一些房價的問題住宅的問題都放進去了那我們說現在住宅整個政府我們看觸及到差不多290萬戶"},{"start":172.996,"end":201.062,"text":"對啊 所以這個就政府都有在做沈院長你講的就沒有錯啦當你指出問題核心的時候行政部門的態度就會有所不同嘛這凸顯你的角色重不重要凸顯你的審計報告寫的方式重不重要所以不要再寫那些空洞的隔靴搔癢的 什麼通盤減少什麼要有所改善現在我們都改了就會改 一樣全部都改 你都改你只有部分改而已 你還改的不夠啦"},{"start":201.542,"end":204.643,"text":"你只有那個部分改 要繼續改全面改你的角色很關鍵你接下來還要幹6年"},{"start":221.489,"end":248.271,"text":"審計部還有什麼問題呢 我跟你講審計部還有輕輕放下抓小放大 我跟你說你們審計部啊 發現問題之後啊就送哪裡 送監察院嘛那監察院做什麼監察院多數是對機關提出糾正比較少對人去進行懲處 你有沒有發現對人的部分就發放到哪裡發放到各行政機關嘛"},{"start":249.733,"end":260.141,"text":"放放到原來選擇單位 他們不處理結果是如何我就用結果讓你來做討論你就看113年決算審計報告為例1 審計部陳報監察院的案件當中一共250件結果一送檢調並糾正一件"},{"start":276.786,"end":291.918,"text":"另外要求你查明處分的113件你已經要求查明處分了各機關實際處分37件乘除124人而中間記大過了兩個記大過 兩個小過120個申屆 高達95%好了 你要求的結果"},{"start":305.643,"end":334.254,"text":"就輕輕放下嘛對不對你高高舉起嘛輕輕放下你站在一個行政部門的檢察官類似的角色當中你要求要明文查處就是說呢你求情量刑看求情都很重但是量刑很低是不是你定罪利太低是不是你有問題你有沒有思考過這樣的結果有沒有實質上達到什麼具體的改善的可能"},{"start":335.376,"end":361.371,"text":"我們和監察院合作是還蠻好的啦一些縱效我送給他的 差不多25%有糾正也有彈劾這個大概我和監察院的我有去注意到這個問題但是華裡面我們發現他有維瓦失足我們也有直接送的喔我們送了兩千多件喔但是你要求他們那你以後就直接送就好啦"},{"start":362.871,"end":379.735,"text":"那你為什麼要繞一個圈讓他自行去處理我就說直接你自己也看到了從你決算審視報告當中你的比例上我再舉一個例子你112年的時候總決算的時候你提出619項的審計意見到了113年"},{"start":384.829,"end":397.217,"text":"總決算的時候這619件當中還有153件他通知他們再次改善怎麼會這樣怎麼會你要求他再處理的"},{"start":399.057,"end":419.994,"text":"還有四分之一不處理這不是挑戰你審計部的權威嗎這代表你的權威性不足嘛對不對你要求的他根本沒有在多大的程度在重視你審計部的意見嘛那你審計部寫這麼多意見是做我們比賽嗎這樣啦 這刑事機關大部分會改但是有的要給他時間"},{"start":421.452,"end":438.743,"text":"所以我們也要看在行之淵有的是要立法有的要修改規則所以一年我們查到他修改規則的兩千多件我相信你有一些是需要修改相關的法治但是就這樣的結果你有沒有想過"},{"start":439.963,"end":468.879,"text":"如何去改變外在說你高高舉起輕輕放下的這一種常態性的這種狀況你有沒有想說你新任的這個未來的六年的這個省紀長的角色當中有沒有可能改善啦本席要問你的重點是這個啦這個我們會照委員的意思來改善好 要做喔我看你要怎麼做喔另外一個部分喔還有一個部分啊就是呢變成是抓小放大跟基層在受罰"},{"start":470.29,"end":474.408,"text":"政治責任是誰做的為什麼最後擊沉我講具體的意思啊"},{"start":475.322,"end":502.95,"text":"譬如講 你從這一個啊這個113年決算比較嚴重的財務上的這個為師啊移送監察院跟司法偵辦的類型來看一共幾件 七件中央一件 就是警政署的這採購案地方六件 三件文書登載不實涉案的有村長 縣府跟公所人員還有一件呢 是大學的詐領案你看 這不是抓小放大嗎"},{"start":504.587,"end":511.085,"text":"就是專門看起來都是小件事情啊你看還有一件雲林我國中荷霄不死都是三七成人員啊"},{"start":512.557,"end":537.528,"text":"然後呢 金額都不高啊都是被你地方審計單位移送的啦你移送的就是這些啦我們大一半 小一半不能二小 我不為什麼大一半 小一半我現在用數位審計啊 那個微標我一查查到兩千多件啊 那個刑事處啊那個沒有罰款的有一億六千多萬啊我講的這些"},{"start":539.41,"end":554.825,"text":"市長 你剛好講到小的沒有講到大的你未來的數位審計是未來啦我現在跟你談的是現實啊你寫的報告當中我幫你整理出來啦好 照我們會注意就只有抓小放大嘛對啊 我也放大"},{"start":555.265,"end":577.557,"text":"不會放大我們對大的更會注意好 更大會注意好 我看你怎麼注意好不好你說剛剛我現在不諱言我們就說救安基金災難黨一直追打救安基金我就談救安基金的就好西融的這個救安基金當中你們當初事情爆發之後你才發現"},{"start":581.019,"end":595.129,"text":"10110年到113年有5000多萬跟基金用途的關聯性不大對不對但是呢100年到112年的決算審計報告當中你裡頭都沒有提到基金內控失靈的問題啊"},{"start":596.909,"end":619.929,"text":"你都沒有提到管理風險的問題啊你就注重這個計畫的執行面的審計而已啊才會導致後面問題越來越大條啊審計功能不彰的結果就會讓問題越來越嚴重啊這你沒有責任嗎這個就是什麼 沈議長這是本席剛剛跟你討論的抓小放大的結果啦"},{"start":621.201,"end":628.623,"text":"怎麼改善 怎麼面對你用規則給人力了這是大小的問題啦不是人力的問題啦這是心態的問題啦你用AI就可以解決這些問題你不要一直推給"},{"start":648.727,"end":676.742,"text":"未來的事情你要先面對過去的錯誤才能考慮到未來的解方這是面對過去的錯誤發現要這樣做這是具體的事情你要怎麼解決這個抓小放大好你剛剛講說什麼你的目標是大一半小一半是不是我們通抓通通大一半小一半只要有不分大小全部都抓我有財務紀律我們都等著看等著看你接下來報告怎麼樣好 那你就查一件你查一件給本席看好"},{"start":678.376,"end":688.062,"text":"我給你看一件本席 雷聲大雨點小審計部真的是作文比賽這個作文題目是什麼 台中大理垃圾山"},{"start":692.239,"end":714.217,"text":"34萬噸的垃圾他需要17年才能清理完成7月份台中審計處的時候已經介入事業費不減反增清潔隊弊案連連你去發現問題你要追查到底你就這個例子你去查百億的大弊案焚化爐經費從31億增加到85億"},{"start":718.888,"end":741.002,"text":"你17年要花多少錢要花37億才能清運這個垃圾山你們也查到問題喔你們不是沒有查喔你有查到問題喔一 預算暴增50幾億審計部寫的二 清潔對內上百次偏離路線違法收運事業廢棄物"},{"start":745.339,"end":765.532,"text":"還有三 市府把一般垃圾丟大裡卻用低於價格幫廠商燒事業廢棄物 圖利數千萬這問題你有沒有發現 還不少這問題是不是你們寫的這是我們台中審計處查的台中寫的當你們發現問題的時候你們發現問題 你知道你台中怎麼寫嗎"},{"start":772.13,"end":789.657,"text":"你怎麼寫 問題還不少耶你們最後想說 你們也覺得看起來內情不太單純但最後你們叫什麼叫台中市政府檢討叫台中市政府檢討而已耶欸 沈議長100億耶這事情是大條還是小條 我就問你嘛"},{"start":791.172,"end":817.538,"text":"這個AI查到了你們心態是怎麼講嘛用AI可以解決這個問題嗎台中市的垃圾啊是有一點隱憂啦用AI可以解決這個問題你剛剛不是說用AI要處理嗎你的AI審計可以處理這個問題嗎你這個沒有AI你都查到了啊你查到結果你叫市政府檢討100億的幣啊你用市政府檢討這AI可以解決的嗎 審計長我請問你這個是用人工查的用科技用人工查的什麼"},{"start":818.538,"end":844.53,"text":"這不是用AI查的不是用AI查的 用人工就查了啊可是那最後寫的是叫你市政府檢討而已啊這一般啦 他一定要檢討啦那要檢討要知道這個案子怎麼樣嗎我們看到問題 一定先找機關說你要趕快解決喔對啊 你就是這樣子而已啊那你不是可以直接移送嗎然後你再看看 最後的結果是怎樣幾位清潔人員被判刑"},{"start":846.172,"end":868.673,"text":"台市這麼大條 整百個弊案發生在台中期發生在這噴色沙 結果你叫人檢討而已社會到高台會過 你心計薄你在做行刑內部監督這個案子累積了多少年從35億變85億足足增加50幾億 共要300多億"},{"start":871.926,"end":899.351,"text":"花十七年的時間才能清允的垃圾山要再花公帑三十七億組長你不覺得這個案子大不大我問你嘛那你後續要怎麼處理嘛這麼大的案子你要一個建樹建林啦你要直接找檢調連政署查清楚寫那麼多報告有什麼用問題你都發現啊怎麼解決這不是高高舉起輕輕放下就是年生大於年小嘛對不對"},{"start":900.506,"end":929.961,"text":"未來六年你是個角色啊我們會注意我們會注意這樣的一個情景再檢討一次嗎好好檢討 再檢討 繼續檢討你會注意有什麼特別的處理方式嗎 你就講啊我們還要整個了解 因為這是在台中市審計處的你這報告寫那麼久了 你還要進行了解你要怎麼處理嘛 你現在想嘛你要怎麼處理嘛 怎麼了解"},{"start":930.979,"end":958.121,"text":"了解有什麼用 了解問題有什麼用解決問題才有用啊你就是過去一直停留在了解的階段問題才會越來越大啦這個公開打你們臉欸你審計完全沒有發揮效果 你知道嗎看地方出現這麼多問題我再講給你聽最近的財政收支法新法的財政收支法接下來是考驗審計部跟地方的審計人員怎麼說"},{"start":960.663,"end":966.197,"text":"你想喔 我們現在的財政收支劃分法通過新的版本之後"},{"start":967.421,"end":988.137,"text":"按照目前的狀況我先講給你聽你現在查到很多的地方問題地方的執行能力就出現一個很大的問題我舉一個例子113年的時候地方的這個決算剩餘款是716億但是實質上地方當初的政府預算短差是553億簡單的講這一來一回當中就有1269億"},{"start":996.226,"end":997.827,"text":"12691 這12691沒有辦法去執行這第一個 這第一個問題因為你人員不變 就這樣子 12691"},{"start":1006.018,"end":1035.311,"text":"到接下來整個財政收支發文法之後呢地方上會多拿多少多拿4165億啦你看這4165億再加上1269億他以前短差553億都沒有辦法執行喔有那麼多錢都沒有辦法執行的情況底下人員不變的情況底下又多了4160多億你的角色就是避免浪費公帑啊你的角色就是矿政財政紀律啊對不對"},{"start":1036.675,"end":1049.075,"text":"這是不是挑戰來了這整個問題是垂直分配出問題水平分配又出問題的情況底下以後地方政府有錢有錢的要死窮窮的要命"},{"start":1052.103,"end":1073.226,"text":"市長 你有沒有想過這個問題 接下來怎麼辦 怎麼面對這一個行政院已經在邀請各地方政府來行政院的事情 我在問你的事情如果行政院沒有修法的話怎麼辦你不要推給行政院剛剛講的有一些分配不出氣財政部有這樣的一個說明"},{"start":1074.026,"end":1101.918,"text":"對整個的我們的財政的效益是有損失的你不要再跟我繞圈子了我知道你在跑運動圈我不想追你了目前的編制 預算的規模中央跟地方的市權都沒有調整是多了四一六五億以後市權如果再下放的話你這麼多人員沒有增加的話我看你怎麼執行你後來就會變成什麼你知道嗎 我跟你預言"},{"start":1102.762,"end":1113.943,"text":"就發紅包啦 大傻逼啦這種是最直接了當的啦這最有可能浪費公帑啦沈議長 本席提醒你啦你到底有沒有去面對這個問題你到底有沒有想過這個問題我現在就要問你這個問題啦"},{"start":1115.919,"end":1122.7,"text":"我是希望你提早預知可能在既有體制下的問題但是你可能是相對的角色你要怎麼面對這可能衍生出來問題審計人員要如何增加人量"},{"start":1141.344,"end":1164.866,"text":"你了解我意思嗎所以我再跟你提醒一點相對是這種問題的話你要去思考本席提醒你 問你的問題就是要去思考未來的六年的省計長有不一樣的角色要面臨挑戰但是你要面臨未來六年之前你要思考以前的六年以前的六年的地方預算你要自己好好的思考如何去進行一個總檢討"},{"start":1166.509,"end":1184.93,"text":"還有你要去思考新版的財法法可能帶來的什麼樣的衝擊那我希望你在這個情況底下站在你審計單位當中來思考這個財政收支法可能造成的衝擊你要寫一份專案報告有沒有可能 沈院長有"},{"start":1186.562,"end":1211.892,"text":"可以用這份報告來思考過去六年到底地方政府的財政或中央政府財政你也可以寫啦到底出了什麼樣的問題啦這一部新版的財政收支發問法之後可能在體制上出什麼問題而你的審計部的角色地方審計處人員的角色要怎麼因應你應該要提早有所因應那這個報告你什麼時候寫給本席兩個月內兩個月喔"},{"start":1216.754,"end":1220.417,"text":"你如果提早寫出來的話有助於大家離去共識啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":352,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（15時54分）主席，有請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：審計長恭喜。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：過去6年來，知道審計部秉持三大功能，落實監督、強化洞察、邁向前瞻，而接下來6年，要朝向智慧審計、永續審計、韌性審計，共臻善治這四大面向來完成。可是當又有新的面向要發展之前，我們回顧舊的目標，三大功能有沒有達成？就過去來說的話，基本上整個審計部過去2年有提出25項跟29項的關鍵議題報告，這2年當中，我沿用地方政府參考你們地方審計處的報告，裡面確實都羅列得非常清楚，報告寫得洋洋灑灑，但是都有一個習慣，就是最後的結語都很溫和，結語是什麼呢？建議改善，結語是什麼？通盤檢討，感覺上都不痛不癢、隔靴搔癢，要說又不敢說，然後點到為止。","有一種現象最近稍微有點改變，就是本席當初要你做改善所得分配跟低薪問題專報的時候，你就有直指問題的核心，譬如說那時候提到產創條例的部分，有關於這部分的前提過於嚴格；或是學費補助比較有感，應該持續推動。本席心目中的審計報告應該要直指核心，如何解決問題，而不是解釋問題，所以你接下來要繼續擔任6年的審計長，除了恭喜之外，我有更高的期待啊，你要如何改變這個文化，這非常關鍵，不要淪為官官相護。審計部所扮演的角色，就是在做一個內部的監督嘛，對不對？審計長你有沒有辦法改變這樣子溫柔的文化，要求具體落實，有沒有可能？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我會照委員的意見來做，像所得分配，委員很關心。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們113年還是查，後來行政院就成立經濟發展委員會，把低薪的問題、一些房價的問題、住宅的問題都放進去了，現在整個政府觸及到的住宅差不多有290萬戶耶！"],["郭委員國文：對啊。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以這個政府都有在做。"],["郭委員國文：審計長你講的就沒有錯啦，當你指出問題核心的時候，行政部門的態度就會有所不同嘛。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["郭委員國文：凸顯你的角色重不重要？凸顯你的審計報告寫的方式重不重要？所以不要再寫那些空洞、隔靴搔癢的，什麼通盤檢討、什麼要有所改善。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們都改啦。"],["郭委員國文：一定要全部都改，你都改……你只有部分改而已，還改得不夠啦！更何況……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，像少子化，我們蒐集那個婚啦，結婚也很重要……"],["郭委員國文：你只有那個部分改，要繼續改，對不對？要擴大改、全面改。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你中央要跳出來啊，現在一個人發10萬啊。"],["郭委員國文：審計長你的角色很關鍵，你接下來還要幹6年。","審計部還有什麼問題呢？我跟你講，審計部還有輕輕放下、抓小放大。你們審計部發現問題之後，就送哪裡？送監察院。而監察院做什麼？監察院多數是對機關提出糾正，比較少對人去進行懲處，你有沒有發現對人的部分就發放到哪裡？發放到各行政機關嘛，發放到原來的權責單位，他們不處理的話，結果如何？我就用結果來跟你討論。以113年決算審計報告為例，審計部陳報監察院的案件一共250件，結果移送檢調並糾正的1件，另外要求查明處分的113件，各機關實際處分了37件，懲處124人，而中間記大過的有2個、2個小過、120個申誡，申誡高達95%。你要求的結果，就輕輕放下嘛！對不對？你高高舉起嘛，輕輕放下，你站在類似行政部門的檢察官的角色當中，你要求明文查處，也就是說你求刑都很重，但是量刑很低，是不是定罪率太低？是不是你有問題？你有沒有思考過這樣的結果實質上有沒有達到什麼具體改善的可能？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們和監察院是合作得蠻好的，一些綜效，我送給它的差不多25%有糾正，也有彈劾，和監察院的合作，我有去注意到這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：你有注意到，那怎麼辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：但是我們發現有違法失職的，也有直接送的喔，我們送了兩千多件喔。"],["郭委員國文：但是你要求他們……那你以後直接送就好啦，對不對？為什麼要繞一個圈讓它自行去處理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有時候他……"],["郭委員國文：你自己也看到了嘛，從你的決算審計報告當中，我再舉一個例子，112年總決算的時候，你提出619項的審計意見，到了113年總決算的時候，這619件當中還有153件要通知他們再次改善，怎麼會這樣？怎麼會你要求它再處理了啊，還有四分之一不處理？這不是挑戰你審計部的權威嗎？這就代表你的權威性不足，對不對？你要求的，它根本沒有多大程度的在重視你審計部的意見嘛！那你審計部寫這麼多意見，是作文比賽嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這樣啦，行政機關大部分會改，但是有的要給它時間，所以我們也要看……有的要立法，有的要修改規則，所以歷年我們查到要修改規則的有兩千多件喔。"],["郭委員國文：我相信有一些是需要修改相關的法制啦！但是就這樣的結果，你有沒有想過如何去改變外在說你高高舉起、輕輕放下的這一種常態性的狀況？你有沒有想過在你未來6年審計長的角色當中，有沒有可能改善啦？本席要問你的重點是這個啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我們會照委員的意思來改善。"],["郭委員國文：好，要做喔，我看你要怎麼做喔。","另外還有一個部分，就是變成抓小放大，基層在受罰，政策責任是誰的？為什麼最後是基層？我講具體的例子，譬如從113年決算比較嚴重的財務違失，被移送監察院跟司法偵辦的類型來看，一共幾件？7件，中央1件就是警政署的採購案；地方6件，3件文書登載不實，涉案的有村長、縣府跟公所人員，還有一件是大學的詐領案，你看這不是抓小放大嗎？看起來都是小事情啊！還有一件雲林某國中核銷不實，都是這些基層人員啦，然後金額都不高，都是被地方審計單位移送的啦！你移送的就是這些啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們大也辦小也辦，不能因惡小而不為。"],["郭委員國文：什麼大也辦、小也辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我現在用數位審計啊！那個圍標我一查就查到兩千多件，行政處罰沒有罰款的有一億六千多萬啊！"],["郭委員國文：我講的這些……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你剛好講到小的，沒有講到大的。"],["郭委員國文：你的數位審計是未來啦，我現在跟你談的是現實啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我現在也在做了。"],["郭委員國文：你寫的報告當中，我幫你整理出來了。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，這我們會注意。"],["郭委員國文：就只有抓小放大嘛！你會注意？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不會放大！我們對大的更會注意。"],["郭委員國文：好，更大會注意，我看你怎麼注意。我現在不諱言，我們就說就安基金，在野黨一直追打，我就談就安基金就好，當初謝宜容的就安基金事情爆發之後，你們才發現110年到113年有五千多萬跟基金用途的關聯性不大，對不對？但是在110年到112年的決算審計報告當中都沒有提到基金內控失靈的問題啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們有提。"],["郭委員國文：你都沒有提到管理風險的問題啊！你只有注重計畫執行面的審計而已，才會導致後面問題越來越大條。審計功能不彰的結果，就會讓問題越來越嚴重啊！這你沒有責任嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以……"],["郭委員國文：這個就是什麼？審計長，這就是本席剛剛跟你討論的，抓小放大的結果啦！怎麼改善？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員的……"],["郭委員國文：怎麼面對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們的人力是有限，所以我現在發展科技。"],["郭委員國文：你又歸責給人力了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我現在發展科技，我用數位審計、AI審計。"],["郭委員國文：這是大小的問題，不是人力的問題，這是心態的問題啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們現在用RPA，用機器流程自動化看這個事情。"],["郭委員國文：你用AI就可以解決這些問題？你用AI就可以查到這些問題？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為那個東西進來，我們有……"],["郭委員國文：你不要一直推給未來的事情，你要先面對過去的錯誤，才能考慮到未來的解方。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這就是面對過去的錯誤，發現要這樣做。"],["郭委員國文：這都是具體的事情。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：你要怎麼解決這個抓小放大……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：你剛剛講什麼，你的目標是怎樣？大也辦、小也辦，是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們通抓、通通。"],["郭委員國文：大也辦、小也辦……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們只要有……"],["郭委員國文：不分大小，全部都抓。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們有財務紀律，我們都通通……"],["郭委員國文：我等著看，等著看你接下來報告怎麼樣。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：那你就查一件嘛！你查一件給本席看。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：本席給你看一件「雷聲大雨點小」的案子，審計部真的是作文比賽啦！這個作文題目是什麼？「臺中大里垃圾山」，34萬噸的垃圾需要17年才能清理完成！7月份臺中審計處已揭露：事業廢棄物不減反增，清潔隊弊案連連。你去發現問題喔！你要追查到底，就這個例子你去查。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：百億的大弊案，焚化爐經費從31億增加到85億，你17年要花多少錢？要花37億才能清運這個垃圾山。你們也查到問題，你們不是沒有查喔，你有查到問題喔！一、預算暴增五十幾億，審計部寫的；二、清潔隊上百次偏離路線違法收運事業廢棄物；還有三、市府把一般垃圾丟大里，卻用低於……價格幫廠商燒事業廢棄物圖利數千萬，這個問題我們都發現了啊！還不少，這個問題是不是你們寫的？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是我們臺中審計處查的。"],["郭委員國文：對，臺中寫的啊！當你們發現問題的時候，那你知道你臺中的是怎麼寫嗎？你怎麼寫？問題還不少耶！你們最後想說，你們也覺得，這個看起來內情不太單純，但最後你們叫臺中市政府檢討。叫臺中市政府檢討而已耶！審計長，100億耶！這個事情是大條還是小條？我就問你嘛！這個AI查到了，你們心態上是這麼講嘛！你用AI可以解決這個問題嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：臺中市的垃圾是有一點隱憂。"],["郭委員國文：那你用AI可以解決這個問題……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們要處理它的……"],["郭委員國文：你剛剛不是說要用AI處理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不要幫忙……"],["郭委員國文：你的AI審計可以處理這個問題嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：來預警它啦！要趕快……"],["郭委員國文：這個沒有AI你都查到了啊！你查到的結果，你叫市政府檢討100億的弊案，你要市政府檢討，這是AI可以解決的嗎？審計長，我請問你。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這一個是用人工查的。"],["郭委員國文：什麼？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個不是用AI查的。"],["郭委員國文：不是用AI查的。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["郭委員國文：用人工查的，可是最後寫的是叫市政府檢討而已。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般它一定要檢討……"],["郭委員國文：先檢討？那之後這個案子有怎麼樣嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們看到問題，一定先找機關說你要趕快解決喔！這個對你影響很大。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！你就是這樣子而已啊！那你不是可以直接移送嗎？然後你再看看最後的結果是怎樣？幾位清潔人員被判刑，事情這麼大條！100億的弊案發生在臺中市，發生在這個垃圾山，結果你叫人家檢討而已，社會交代得過去嗎？你審計部耶！對啊！你在做……內部監督耶！這個案子累積了多少年？從35億變85億，足足增加五十幾億，快要三倍多。花17年的時間才能清運的垃圾山，要再花公帑37億。審計長，你不覺得……這個案子大不大，我就問你嘛！那你後續要怎麼處理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這一個還滿爭議的。"],["郭委員國文：你看，這麼大的案子，你要見樹見林，你要直接找檢調、找廉政署查清楚，寫那麼多報告有什麼用？問題你都發現了啊！怎麼解決？這不是高高舉起、輕輕放下而已，就是雷聲大雨點小，對不對？未來6年你這個角色啊……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會注意。"],["郭委員國文：你們會怎樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會注意這樣的一個情景。"],["郭委員國文：注意？叫它再檢討一次嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員，這個當然……"],["郭委員國文：好好檢討！再檢討！繼續檢討！你會注意！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：委員的想法……"],["郭委員國文：你有什麼特別的處理方式，你就講啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們還要整個了解，因為這是在……"],["郭委員國文：整個了解？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是在臺中市審計處的……"],["郭委員國文：你們的報告寫那麼久了，你還要進行了解？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是獨立……"],["郭委員國文：你要怎麼處理嘛？你現在想嘛！你要怎麼處理嘛？怎麼了解？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會找人……"],["郭委員國文：了解有什麼用？了解問題有什麼用？要解決問題才有用啊！你就是過去一直停留在了解的階段，問題才會越來越大啦！審計長，這個公開打你們臉耶！你們審計完全沒有發揮效果，你知道嗎？","看地方出現這麼多問題，審計長，我再講給你聽。最近新修的財政收支劃分法，接下來是考驗審計部跟地方的審計人員，怎麼說？我們現在的財政收支劃分法通過新的版本之後，按照目前的狀況，我先講給你聽，你現在查到很多的地方問題，地方的執行能力就出現一個很大的問題，我舉一個例子，113年的時候，地方的決算賸餘款是716億，但是實質上地方當初的政府預算短差是553億，簡單的講，這一來一回當中就有1,269億啦！這1,269億沒有辦法去執行啦！這是第一個問題，因為你人員不變，就這樣子。","接下來，整個財政收支劃分法之後，地方上會多拿多少？多拿4,165億，你看這4,165億再加上1,269億，它以前短差553億都沒有辦法執行喔！有那麼多錢都沒有辦法執行的情況底下，在人員不變的情況底下，又多了四千一百六十多億，你的角色就是避免浪費公帑啊！你的角色就是控制財政紀律啊！對不對？這是不是挑戰來了？這整個問題是垂直分配出問題，水平分配又出問題的情況底下，以後地方政府有錢的會有錢得要死，窮會窮得要命，審計長，你有沒有想過這個問題？接下來要怎麼辦？怎麼面對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：行政院已經在邀集各地方政府來……"],["郭委員國文：那是行政院的事情啦！我在問你的事情是如果行政院沒有修法的話怎麼辦？你不要推給行政院啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個沒有修法，那剛剛講的有一些分配不出去，財政部有這樣的一個說明，那對我們整個的財政效益是有損……"],["郭委員國文：審計長，你不要再跟我繞圈子了啦！我知道你在跑運動圈，我不想追你了啦！目前的編制，預算的規模，中央跟地方的事權都沒有調整。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["郭委員國文：是多了4,165億啦！以後的事權如果再下放的話，你人員沒有增加的話，我看你怎麼執行？後來就會變成什麼你知道嗎？我跟你預言，就發紅包啦！大撒幣啦！這種是最直接了當的啦！這也最有可能浪費公帑啦！審計長，本席提醒你，你到底有沒有去面對這個問題？你到底有沒有想過這個問題？我現在就要問你這個問題啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們希望增加的錢先還債，如果像你剛剛講的撒幣或者是增加社福，我們是希望它能夠有賸餘或者是沒有負債。"],["郭委員國文：我是希望你提早預知可能在既有體制下的問題……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們也有注意到這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：當然修法是立法院本身所造成的結果，但是你可能是相對的角色，你要怎麼面對這個可能衍生出來的問題，審計人員要如何增加能量啦！你了解我的意思嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：所以我再跟你提醒一點，相對是這種問題的話，你要去思考，本席提醒你、問你的問題，就是要讓你思考未來6年的審計長有不一樣的角色要面臨挑戰，但是你要面臨未來6年之前，你要思考以前的6年，以前6年的地方預算你要自己好好的思考，如何去進行一個總檢討，還有你要去思考新版的財劃法可能帶來什麼樣的衝擊，那我希望你在這種情況底下，站在你審計單位當中來思考這個財政收支劃分法可能造成的衝擊，你要寫一份專案報告，有沒有可能？審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有。"],["郭委員國文：可不可以？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：可以。"],["郭委員國文：用這份報告來思考過去6年到底地方政府的財政，或是中央政府的財政你也可以寫，到底出了什麼樣問題。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好。"],["郭委員國文：這一部新版的財政收支劃分法之後可能在體制上出什麼問題，而你審計部的角色、地方審計處人員的角色要怎麼因應？你應該要提早有所因應，這個報告你什麼時候要寫給本席？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：兩個月內。"],["郭委員國文：兩個月？可以稍微快一點嗎？你如果提早寫出來的話，有助於大家凝聚共識，可以嗎？45天可以嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，45天。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的詢問，也謝謝被提名人陳審計長。審計長，喝個水，等你喝完水我們就繼續。","接下來賴士葆委員質詢完畢之後，我們會休息10分鐘。","現在請賴士葆委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},{"id":"163784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a139580e4b8067394ab11e92108cb222197a2d944b535faab16581ff736705a4ade47f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"15:33:50 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因為不法就是他委員所談的是對的那麼我在審計部的審計報告當中發現跟台電相關的這個篇幅不少但我必須說很多不法的事情審計部是摸到了邊但有待深入"},{"start":90.838,"end":109.186,"text":"很多不法的情勢是如此我的意思是說有摸到邊但沒有深入更多不法的情勢台電是很會隱匿的審計部毫無直覺稍後我會跟審計長說明這個部分我們先回到簡報上你看審計報告的截圖報告上面說環團認為台電隱匿了協和電廠土壤超標的問題"},{"start":117.569,"end":144.289,"text":"那審計部卻只認為台電未來有框起來的地方對廠區污染 土壤污染的情形負有揭露及處理責任審計長我想要請問你各個行政機關還有國營事業既然是有心想引力你覺得他還會主動他會願意要負起揭露跟處理的責任嗎我們是有通知台電要他改善"},{"start":145.686,"end":153.094,"text":"但是也有通知環境部要他處理但是沒有處理的話有逐年上升的現象"},{"start":154.292,"end":175.22,"text":"我們還在追查還有更多 沈機長在環評會上台電提供的資料隱匿了協和電廠有土壤污染的嚴重情形但是在多方努力之下在環境部跟基隆市市政府的環保局一同進場查證了好幾個月"},{"start":178.742,"end":202.174,"text":"確認這個是報告書長質土壤污染超過管制標準將被公告為所謂的污染的長質台電終於必須承認必須正視並且整治改善污染狀況這是台電本來就該做的事情但是它內部卻長期要一再的隱匿一直到今年這個問題才被正式挖掘攤開來"},{"start":204.555,"end":231.081,"text":"請問沈記長 你要不要報請這個監察院依法處理呢這一個 我們如果這種現象我們馬上查不是如果啊 有報告啊對 那我們會馬上查核馬上移送 如果有這個事實怎麼馬上 你看到這個報告沒有做嗎我們一線作案 這個是我們以前今天回去就做了是不是移送監察院好 我們移送監察院這一個如果確實我們就移送監察院報告就出來了"},{"start":233.639,"end":250.791,"text":"今天回去就做了9月9號台電發生興達電廠天然氣外洩爆炸起火案件台電對外說明他說是因為天然氣管線的法蘭街頭磨損造成外洩但是根據前幾天的媒體報導台電內部有吹哨者"},{"start":251.491,"end":268.457,"text":"像媒體檢舉說有許多劣質的中國製的法蘭賣到台灣流入中油跟台電恐怕跟這次興達電廠的爆炸事故是有關請問沈記長您開始做調查了嗎已經交代我的同仁去做了"},{"start":268.757,"end":283.25,"text":"這件事已經開始調查了因為我們以前也查過很多偽造進口證明或者是用來源不明的貨品我們查過有八、九十件所以我們現在這個我們有經驗"},{"start":284.492,"end":300.069,"text":"所以吹哨者很重要吹哨者保護法也非常重要我必須報告沈記長台電的各種更新改建機組工程還有煤炭工程在材料的使用上有很大的問題我質詢過很多次興達電廠只是冰山一角"},{"start":301.07,"end":329.509,"text":"有更多的弊端等著審計部去挖掘去年9月台灣民眾黨在立法院召開了一場記者會我們揭發了台電大林電廠它的運煤系統改建工程當中大量使用不合格不符合勞動部這個職安署TS標章認證的防爆管配件這一頁我先請您看一下這個就是台電採購的合約書當中框起來的那一段就是上面寫著"},{"start":331.913,"end":334.322,"text":"管配件的材質必須是可鍛鑄鐵"},{"start":336.328,"end":363.102,"text":"或是鍍鋅鋼但是因為沈記長可斷鑄鐵因為在國際上沒有再生產了可能是環保的因素那台電後來也開會就要求說要使用強度更好的一個叫做球末鑄鐵的材質我想這是對的就是你要的東西是缺貨但是你不能往下把標準降下來尤其這個是防爆管的配件所以事實上要使用球末鑄鐵但結果沈記長你請看"},{"start":365.863,"end":387.355,"text":"8月6號 治安署到台大大林電廠抽測檢查的結果發現兩大問題第一個問題是台電的大林電廠他現場裝設了申方 蒙利還有正方三家公司的防爆管的配件都出現材質不合格的狀況你看印章對不對 不合格不合格不合格你看到 不合格"},{"start":389.365,"end":406.578,"text":"這張表我給經濟部前部長郭部長看過他無動於衷這個製造廠商名稱都是台電提供給職安署已經過了一年多這是去年8月6號職安署百般的坦戶到今天沒有開罰"},{"start":408.566,"end":430.003,"text":"審計部對於治安署編列的預算他在執行這個防爆器管配件的認證業務但卻沒有辦法確保這個產品是有品質的一致性而且也沒有依法開罰各種堵直行為請問審計部你要不要查送檢查後調查後送檢察院跟移送法班"},{"start":431.31,"end":445.362,"text":"這個組安署啊 既然去查了不合格我們有看到我們會依照委員的那個 我們會去整個調查調查完如果有委員所講的這些問題我們移送我們會移送那個監察案來調查"},{"start":453.82,"end":479.595,"text":"那這次的這個抽驗當中還有第二個問題喔政客公司代理的國際大廠叫Appleton這個叫原型接線盒原型接線盒他有驗出這個同一家公司驗出合格跟不合格的這個兩種結果我在這裡要強調不合格的原型接線盒這個是由政客公司提供這個事情不是我的解讀而是台電說的台電說由這個"},{"start":481.656,"end":502.406,"text":"這家公司他所提供的政客公司提供的Appleton的這個原型接線盒有不合格的跟有合格的那請這個陳記長繼續看因為同樣標示Appleton的廠牌原型接線盒那為什麼會有合格又有不合格兩種完全不同的結果呢"},{"start":503.446,"end":524.7,"text":"我的直覺是有仿冒品參雜其中所以我的辦公室就進一步去要求台電提供材料查驗申請單結果我發現什麼呢不合格的標記為Appleton的這個廠牌的原型接線盒台電事後承認"},{"start":526.491,"end":545.205,"text":"是這個承包商叫做現代樂田他的下包廠商叫做成鋼公司他沒有經過台電的器材檢驗自行從興達漁港工程的餘料剩餘的材料取用然後安裝到煤倉工程上"},{"start":548.659,"end":557.393,"text":"到目前為止問題還在這裡台電不只是讓這個不合格的仿製的這個防爆管配件他仍然裝設在場區喔"},{"start":559.298,"end":577.066,"text":"而且用盡各種方法拖延改善期限更離譜的喔更離譜的喔他在其他的工程例如這次興達電廠他的燃氣工程繼續採購繼續採購這個申芳跟萌玉這個有被檢查出不合格產品的這個廠商啊"},{"start":578.171,"end":589.143,"text":"沈記長對於如此危害勞工安全的採購弊端你要不要追查要不要請監察院依法處理"},{"start":590.166,"end":615.302,"text":"這一個我們以前在查台電這畫面的時候也發現他很多廠商用這種類似的來期待結果你怎麼做你知道啊我們就移送檢查案叫他移送法辦有嗎有啊結果呢結果就他們就相關都那些廠商就被禁止開廠商就被怎麼樣台電啊台電讓這個東西進去放在廠紙裡啊"},{"start":616.462,"end":639.87,"text":"這個我們會照委員的意思來處理這個我們也有對接受 因為台電他很多都是外包廠商所以常常都會 外包廠商不是理由 該負責的就要負責台電就是要負責 我今天舉了很多例子這個當然 他要管理好有報告 有資料他當然要做好管理"},{"start":641.778,"end":643.24,"text":"這些亂花的錢洪部長竟然說要爭取公務預算歸電"},{"start":661.98,"end":689.4,"text":"意思就是要拿納稅人的錢來補回來全民買單但是勞動部明年的預算書沒有規定這筆錢所以我今天要向省紀長確認就業安定基金被濫用的部分你們有把它剔除嗎因為如果你剔除的話勞動部部長必須向當初亂花錢的人追討甚至強制執行我現在今天再跟您確認你有把它剔除嗎"},{"start":690.29,"end":712.318,"text":"我有把他修正檢列 他要列應收款回來你直接告訴我們 你就是剔除嘛這個就是一個名詞跟一個做法嘛你有沒有剔除我有檢列 他要應收回來沈記長 你如果剔除根據審計法你就是要給他期限追繳啊請問這個期限是多久"},{"start":712.958,"end":734.218,"text":"我們要他逐項查明已經發生這麼久了我只問你期限多久我們一直在追蹤他改善的情形沒有期限喔做到任期結束為止那如果你沒有踢足你聽起來我好像沒有踢足有檢列"},{"start":736.127,"end":757.688,"text":"你那個減劣跟剔除 減劣是全額減劣嗎剔除是這樣 剔除是很明確這一個是因為舊服務法 舊業服務法他在這個放在舊業服務法舊業服務法是勞動部的法我要尊重勞動部 勞動部已同意我把它減劣了他說他會直向查明 全額減劣嗎沈縣長我覺得這個有點護航耶這護航勞動部 不會護航他 不會護航他"},{"start":760.946,"end":775.999,"text":"所以結果 反正不能讓全民買單嘛 對不對他預算書也不敢嘛 但是這個錢就要追回來啊他如果委員會自己施用當然我們會 如果他沒有追回來我們還是會移送檢查案調查"},{"start":778.188,"end":805.175,"text":"沈記長 請問美隆大峽谷你有在關注嗎美隆大峽谷大峽谷有看到內政部國土管理署每年編列了五六千萬去運作所謂國土利用的監測整合資訊網它是透過衛星去判讀是不是有因為稻採砂石或是傾倒廢棄物造成這個國土有變異的地方那這應該是一個科技執法非常有幫助的工具 對嗎對"},{"start":807.276,"end":824.11,"text":"那我請問沈機長現在地方政府問題在哪裡呢地方政府取得這個國土變異點資訊之後耗性的執法有很大的問題那為什麼會這樣說沈機長前幾天我和環保團體一起開會國土署出席的同仁"},{"start":825.331,"end":840.191,"text":"當天他們說這個系統當這個系統發現國土有變異點他們就把相關資料交給地方政府主管機關去執行例如美濃大峽谷這個案子是2024年初"},{"start":841.112,"end":859.669,"text":"一年半前了國土組發現有國土變異的時候就把這些相關資訊給高雄市環保局去執行但事實上卻是今年九月要不是有民意代表去勘查那這件事不會被發掘出來不會被攤出來大家都不會知道所以等於說一整年多從去年到今年"},{"start":860.39,"end":861.25,"text":"這個我請他們去了解"},{"start":889.594,"end":903.971,"text":"有嗎 已經有了嗎 有進度了嗎這個已經 最近的新聞嘛 他們已經在因為我們一個調查案子啊 都會規劃會整理 會相關的再出動"},{"start":905.843,"end":926.832,"text":"審計長你今天答應了我很多事而且這都是你的職責嘛審計部的職責嘛影響國家的財產安全我們都有責任接下來我請教你這個少子化問題這是113年審計部的決算審核報告為了提供優質的生育生養環境減輕家長負擔政府推出0到2歲社區公共托育計畫"},{"start":927.532,"end":939.308,"text":"但是卻被國發會評為高風險紅燈預警計畫為什麼呢因為實現率太差了113年度第三期跟第四期的實現率只有19.28%以及37.23%"},{"start":945.851,"end":967.191,"text":"本來預計要522處公共托育設施結果完成了400多所但是還有35個鄉鎮市區完全沒有托育機構的規劃實在是慘不忍睹我想請教沈記長上個月8月出生台灣出生跟死亡人口數你有概念嗎"},{"start":968.48,"end":976.025,"text":"一個是書生8464一個是115226 這邊兩倍了這種人口負成長已經連續20多個月了這麼嚴重的國安危機但是對少子化的預算執行率這麼低"},{"start":987.745,"end":1004.422,"text":"我們根本覺得政府沒有心要解決這個少子化問題啊難怪人民無感啊沒有生育動力啊沈記長 執行率這麼低喔沈記長 有意願但沒有生育大概有兩種狀況想生 但養不起"},{"start":1005.203,"end":1022.041,"text":"這是一種一種是想生養得起但有生育上的困難那第一種當然靠國家的政策很多幫忙剛剛我們講托育政策啦或是一些補助來處理但是第二種的話就必須訴諸醫療了想生養得起但他有困難生育那就是要這個"},{"start":1023.442,"end":1047.449,"text":"利用人工生殖技術來幫助建立他們這個期待的家庭但是沈記長有很多人一直在等待因為衛福部長期行政怠惰讓很多需求的人困在年久未休年久失休的人工生殖法裡面請問沈記長你還記得你來拜訪的時候你有跟我我們談及這個代孕的這件事情嗎你記得嗎"},{"start":1053.858,"end":1069.009,"text":"台湾社会台湾代理育母政策已经超过30年了我记得你先前来拜会的时候是有正向表达支持但今天我还是要跟沈记长确认两件事第一个您是否支持代孕解禁让代孕法治化"},{"start":1069.91,"end":1085.931,"text":"我們少子化是很嚴重所以多元的生小孩包括政府現在花了幾萬塊我會把這個整個做一個了解為什麼衛福部把這個案子勾這麼久"},{"start":1087.569,"end":1104.845,"text":"那就制度設計因為您當天告訴我是您是基本上是支持的那您是否認同應該有相當的明確的這個限制跟配套當然包括採非營利禁止中間抽成限定使用對象完善身心的評估還有這個醫療保障孩子的權益等等等等那這些配套"},{"start":1106.346,"end":1128.074,"text":"去年台大院政治中心陳美洲主任有講戴履母不應該脫鉤條文已經討論多年要一次解決這個重點是在哪裡焦點不該是贊成或反對而是如何訂定完善的管理配套跟契約規範陳記長行政怠惰的時候他該有的職責的時候"},{"start":1129.574,"end":1150.8,"text":"你也是你的責任請問貝提名人就是說如果待運立法通過從審計機關的角度你認為在政府的財務支出跟行政監督上要優先注意哪些風險我想藉助你的專業在我們立法的時候這個會期我們會當作優先法案來處理因為就這些事有相當的一些影響"},{"start":1154.321,"end":1166.253,"text":"那些後面的影響全部要把它處理掉我們會對這個案子去查衛福部他做到什麼程度為什麼處處沒有提出"},{"start":1167.157,"end":1193.253,"text":"國安問題少子化這麼嚴重人工生殖法放了十幾年沒有實質的修改行政怠惰也是審計部可以了解的事情啊對對對審計長我再請問你在野黨有聯署要廢除監察院這是民進黨在野時長期的主張連賴清德總統也說過那如今民進黨也說他們奉陪到底廢除這個監察院那我想請問這個審計長如果"},{"start":1196.617,"end":1212.013,"text":"監察院被廢除你認為審計權要由誰來行使是要將審計權歸到立法院呢還是另設一個獨立機關我想聽聽您的意見這個國際最高審計機關或者世界各國大部分都獨立行"},{"start":1213.874,"end":1230.508,"text":"有在國會也有但是少數美國就是在國會但是像日本新加坡韓國那個華國通通在都獨立出來所以沈記長已經有思考過這個問題了也了解好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（15時34分）謝謝主席，有請被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩再請被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：被提名人好。我以下就稱呼您審計長，審計的職權包括監督機關預算的執行，還有稽查機關人員對於財物、財政方面是不是有不法或不忠於職務的行為。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對的。"],["陳委員昭姿：相對的就是機關的部分，當它面對審計人員在執行職權的時候，就必須翔實回答或提供資料，不得隱匿，是這樣嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，如果發現機關人員有不法或不忠於職務的部分，是不是要報請監察院依法處理？如果涉及刑事責任，還要依法送辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，因為對於不法，委員所談的是對的。"],["陳委員昭姿：審計長，我在審計部的審計報告當中發現，跟台電相關的篇幅不少，但我必須說，很多不法的事情，審計部是摸到了邊，但有待深入，很多不法的情事是如此。我的意思是說，有摸到邊但沒有深入，更多不法的情事，台電是很會隱匿的，審計部毫無知覺，稍後我會跟審計長說明這個部分。","我們先回到簡報上，你看這個審計報告的截圖。報告上面說，環團認為台電隱匿了協和電廠土壤污染超標的問題，請看我框起來的地方，審計部確實認為台電未來對廠區污染、土壤污染的情形負有揭露及處理責任。審計長，我想請問你，各行政機關還有國營事業既然是有心想隱匿，你覺得它還會主動，它會願意負起揭露跟處理的責任嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們是有通知台電要求改善，也有通知環境部要求處理，但是沒有處理的，有逐年上升的現象……"],["陳委員昭姿：然後呢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們還在追查。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，還有更多。審計長，在環評會議上，台電提供的資料隱匿了協和電廠有土壤污染嚴重的情形，但是在多方努力之下，環境部跟基隆市政府的環保局一同進場，查證了好幾個月，這是報告書，確認場址土壤污染超過管制標準，將被公告為所謂的污染場址，台電終於必須承認、必須正視並且整治改善污染狀況。這是台電本來就該做的事情，但是它內部卻長期一再地隱匿，一直到今年這個問題才被正式挖掘攤開來。請問審計長，你要不要報請監察院依法處理呢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：如果有這種現象，我們馬上查……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是如果，有報告啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，那我們會馬上查核、馬上移送，如果有這個事實，移送監察院……"],["陳委員昭姿：什麼馬上？你看到這個報告，你沒有做嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們移送監察院，這也是我們以前……"],["陳委員昭姿：你今天回去就做了，是不是移送監察院，可以嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：好，我們移送監察院，這個如果確實是事實，我們就移送監察院。"],["陳委員昭姿：報告就出來了，好，那今天回去就做了。","9月9號，審計長，台電興達電廠發生天然氣外洩爆炸起火案件，台電對外說明，說是因為天然氣管線的法蘭接頭磨損造成外洩。但是根據前幾天的媒體報導，台電內部有吹哨者向媒體檢舉說，有許多劣質的中國製法蘭賣到臺灣，流入中油跟台電，恐怕跟這次興達電廠的爆炸事故有關。請問審計長，您開始做調查了嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：已經交代我的同仁去做了。"],["陳委員昭姿：這件事已經開始調查了？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：開始調查了……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我們要知道調查進度。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們以前也查過很多偽造進口證明或者是用來源不明的貨品，我們查過有八、九十件，這個我們有經驗。"],["陳委員昭姿：審計長，所以吹哨者很重要，吹哨者保護法也非常重要。我必須報告審計長，台電的各種更新改建基礎工程，還有煤倉工程，在材料的使用上有很大的問題。我質詢過很多次，興達電廠只是冰山一角，有更多的弊端等著審計部去挖掘。","去年9月，台灣民眾黨在立法院召開了一場記者會，我們揭發了台電大林電廠的運煤系統改建工程當中，大量使用不合格、不符合勞動部職安署TS安全標章認證的防爆管配件。這一頁我先請您看一下，這一個就是台電採購的合約書，當中框起來的那一段就是，上面寫著「管配件的材質必須是可鍛鑄鐵或是鍍鋅鋼」。但是審計長，可鍛鑄鐵因為在國際上沒有在生產，可能是環保的因素，台電後來有開會要求說，要使用強度更好的一個叫做「球墨鑄鐵」的材質，我想這是對的，就是你要的東西缺貨，但是你不能往下把標準降下來，尤其這是防爆管的配件，所以事實上要使用球墨鑄鐵。好，但結果呢？審計長，你請看，8月6號職安署到台電大林電廠抽測檢查的結果，發現兩大問題，第一個問題是，台電大林電廠現場裝設的申芳、盟諭還有正鶴3家公司的防爆管配件都出現材質不合格的狀況，你看，這上面的印章就是不合格、不合格、不合格，你應該有看到不合格。","這張表我給經濟部前部長郭部長看過，他無動於衷，這些製造廠商名稱都是台電提供給職安署的，已經過了一年多，這是去年8月6號的事，職安署百般的袒護，到今天沒有開罰，審計部對於職安署編列的預算，他們在執行防爆氣管配件的認證業務，但沒有辦法確保這個產品是有品質的一致性，而且也沒有依法開罰，對於各種瀆職行為，請問審計部要不要調查後送監察院跟移送法辦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：既然職安署去查了發現不合格，我們也……"],["陳委員昭姿：你看到啦！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有，我們有看到，會依照委員的意見，我們會去做整個調查，調查完如果有委員所講的這些問題，我們移送……"],["陳委員昭姿：審計長，去年我們就開記者會了，這個資料非常清楚啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會移送監察院來調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：這次的抽驗當中還有第二個問題，正鶴公司代理的國際大廠（APPLETON）的圓形接線盒發生同一家公司驗出合格跟不合格兩種結果。我在這裡要強調，不合格的圓形接線盒是由正鶴公司提供，這個事情不是我的解讀而是台電說的，台電說由這家正鶴公司提供APPLETON的圓形接線盒有不合格的跟有合格的。請審計長繼續看，同樣標示APPLETON廠牌的圓形接線盒，為什麼會有合格又有不合格兩種完全不同的結果呢？我的直覺是有仿冒品摻雜其中，所以我的辦公室就進一步去要求台電提供材料查驗申請單，結果我發現什麼呢？不合格的標記為APPLETON廠牌的圓形接線盒，台電事後承認是這個承包商（現代樂鐵）的下包廠商（承岡公司）沒有經過台電的器材檢驗，自行從興達漁港工程的餘料（剩餘的材料）取用，然後安裝到煤倉工程上。嘆為觀止吧！","審計長，到目前為止，問題還在這裡，台電不只是讓這個不合格的、仿製的防爆管配件仍然裝設在廠區，而且用盡各種方法拖延改善期限，更離譜的是，它在其他的工程例如興達電廠的燃氣工程繼續採購申芳跟盟諭這些有被檢查出不合格產品廠商的產品。審計長，對於如此妨害、危害勞工安全的採購弊端，你要不要追查？要不要報請監察院依法處理？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們以前在查台電這方面的時候，也發現很多廠商用這種劣質的來取代。"],["陳委員昭姿：結果你怎麼做呢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們就移送監察院，就要把它移送法辦。"],["陳委員昭姿：有嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：結果呢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：結果相關的那些廠商就被禁止……"],["陳委員昭姿：廠商就被怎麼樣？台電讓這個東西繼續放在場址裡啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我們會照委員的意思來處理，這個我們也有……"],["陳委員昭姿：你說照……這是你們的工作欸！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為台電很多都是外包廠商，所以有常常都會……"],["陳委員昭姿：外包廠商不是理由，該負責的就要負責，台電就是要負責，我今天舉了很多例子。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，當然它要管理好啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：我都有證據、有報告、有資料。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它當然要做好管理。"],["陳委員昭姿：審計長，我還是要請教你有關就業安定基金被拿去開演唱會、做春聯、紅包袋，這是完全不符合它原來的目的事情，當然就被濫用了7,224萬，剛剛洪委員也提到了，這些亂花的錢，洪部長竟然說要爭取公務預算歸墊，意思就是要拿納稅人的錢補回來，由全民買單！但是勞動部明年的預算書沒有歸墊這筆錢喔！所以我今天要向審計長確認，就業安定基金被濫用的部分你們有把它剔除嗎？因為如果你剔除的話，勞動部部長必須向當初亂花錢的人追討，甚至強制執行。我現在再跟您確認，你有把它剔除嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我有把它修正、減列，它要列應收款回來。"],["陳委員昭姿：你直接告訴我，你就是剔除嘛！這個就是一個名詞跟一個作法嘛！你有沒有剔除？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我有減列，它要應收回來！"],["陳委員昭姿：這樣不行啦！審計長，你如果剔除，根據審計法，你就是要給它期限追繳啊！請問這個期限是多久？追繳的期限。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們要它逐項查明，要逐項查明，因為這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：已經發生這麼久了，我只問你期限多久？我只問你期限多久？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們一直在追蹤它改善的情形。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有期限喔？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們的……"],["陳委員昭姿：這麼好喔？做壞事喔？做到任期結束為止喔？如果你沒有剔除，我聽起來好像是沒有剔除，審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有減列。"],["陳委員昭姿：你那個減列跟剔除……減列是全額減列嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：意思是這樣，剔除是很明確，這一個是因為就業服務法，而就業服務法是勞動部的法，我要尊重，勞動部已同意我把它減列啊！它說它會逐項查明。"],["陳委員昭姿：全額減列嗎？審計長，我覺得這個有點護航欸！在護航勞動部欸！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不會護航它！不會護航它！"],["陳委員昭姿：反正結果不能讓全民買單嘛！對不對？預算書也不改嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，它要逐項查明。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是這個錢就是要追回來啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：如果違法自己私用，如果沒有追回來，我們還是會移送監察院調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：審計長，請問美濃大峽谷事件你有在關注嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：大峽谷？有，有看到。"],["陳委員昭姿：內政部國土管理署每年編列了五、六千萬去運作國土利用監測整合資訊網，它是透過衛星去判讀是不是有因為盜採砂石或是傾倒廢棄物造成國土有變異點，這應該是一個科技執法非常有幫助的工具，對嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。我請問審計長，現在問題在哪裡呢？地方政府取得國土變異點資訊之後，後續的執法有很大的問題，為什麼會這樣說？審計長，前幾天我和環保團體一起開會，當天國土署出席的同仁說當這個系統發現國土有變異點，他們就把相關資料交給地方政府主管機關去執行，例如美濃大峽谷，這個案子是2024年初（一年半前了）國土署發現有國土變異的時候就把這些相關資訊給高雄市環保局去執行，但事實上卻是今年9月，要不是有民意代表去勘查，這件事不會被發掘出來、不會被攤出來，大家都不會知道啊！所以等於說一整年多，從去年到今年，天天都有砂石業者去盜採砂石、去傾倒事業廢棄物，根本整個執法都出了問題！結果國土署的新聞還在幫高雄市環保局擦脂抹粉。請問審計長，對於地方政府針對危害國土盜取砂石、濫倒廢棄物出現這麼大的漏洞，你要不要查？你要不要要求高雄市審計處好好調查、追究？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個我請他們去了解了。"],["陳委員昭姿：有嗎？已經有了嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有！"],["陳委員昭姿：有進度了嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：最近的新聞他們已經在……因為我們一個調查案子都會規劃、會整理相關的資料，再出動。"],["陳委員昭姿：審計長，你今天答應了我很多事，而且這都是你的職責，是審計部的職責，我都要追蹤喔！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：影響國家的財產安全或者各方面……"],["陳委員昭姿：我都要追蹤喔！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們都有責任。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，接下來我請教你少子化的問題。這是113年審計部的決算審核報告，為了提供優質的生養環境，減輕家長負擔，政府推出零到二歲社區公共托育計畫，但是卻被國發會評為高風險（紅燈）預警計畫，為什麼呢？因為實現率太差了！113年度第三期跟第四期的實現率只有19.28%以及37.23%。本來預計要有522處公共托育設施，結果完成了四百多所，但是還有35個鄉鎮市區完全沒有托育機構的規劃，實在是慘不忍睹！","我想請教審計長，上個（8）月臺灣的出生跟死亡人口數，你有概念嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有一點。"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道嗎？大概多少？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一個是0.888……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，一個是出生8,464人，一個是1萬5,226人，快兩倍了嘛！人口負成長已經連續二十多個月了，這麼嚴重的國安危機，但是對少子化的預算執行率這麼低啊！我們覺得政府根本沒有心要解決少子化的問題啊！難怪人民無感，沒有生育動力啊！審計長，預算執行率這麼低喔！這麼低喔！審計長，有意願但沒有生育的大概有兩種狀況：想生但養不起，這是一種；另一種是想生養得起，但有生育上的困難。第一種當然要靠國家的政策，有很多相關的辦法，如剛剛我們講的托育政策，或是一些補助來處理；但是第二種的話就必須訴諸醫療了。想生養得起，但有困難生育，就需要人工生殖等醫療技術來幫助，以建立他們期待的家庭。但是有很多人一直在等待，因為衛福部長期行政怠惰，讓很多有需求的人困在年久未休、年久失修的人工生殖法裡面。請問審計長，你還記得來拜訪的時候，我們有談及代孕的這件事情嗎？你記得嗎？忘記了？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：記得。"],["陳委員昭姿：記得吧！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：記得。"],["陳委員昭姿：臺灣社會談論代理孕母這一個政策已經超過三十年，我記得你先前來拜會的時候，有正向表達支持，但是今天我還是要再跟審計長確認兩件事：第一個，您是否支持代孕解禁，讓代孕法制化？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們少子化是很嚴重，所以多元生育小孩，包括政府現在發10萬元……"],["陳委員昭姿：您是否支持代孕？我們直接誠如您剛剛……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我會把這個部分做整個瞭解，為什麼衛福部把這個案子擱這麼久？"],["陳委員昭姿：好。就制度設計……因為您當天告訴我，基本上是支持的，那您是否認同應該有相當明確的限制跟配套？當然包括採非營利、禁止仲介抽成、限定適用對象、完善身心的評估、醫療保障、孩子的權益等等這些配套。去年臺大醫院生殖中心陳美州主任有講，代理孕母不應該脫鉤啦！就是條文已經討論多年，要一次解決。這個重點是在哪裡？焦點不該是贊成或反對，而是如何訂定完善的管理配套跟契約規範。審計長，行政怠惰時它該有的職責部分，也是您的責任啦！請問被提名人，如果代孕立法通過，從審計機關的角度，您認為在政府的財務支出跟行政監督上，要優先注意哪些風險？我想借助您的專業在立法方面，這個會期我們會當作優先法案來處理，能夠來保障……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為做這些事會有相當的一些影響……"],["陳委員昭姿：就您的財務支出跟行政監督……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：那些負面的影響，全部要把它處理掉，我們會針對這個案子，去查衛福部做到什麼程度？為什麼遲遲沒有提出？"],["陳委員昭姿：國安問題，少子化這麼嚴重！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對、對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：人工生殖法放了十幾年，沒有實質地修改，行政怠惰也是審計部可以瞭解的事情啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對、對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：審計長，我再請問你，在野黨有連署要廢除監察院，這是民進黨在野時長期的主張，連賴清德總統也說過。如今民進黨也說他們奉陪到底啦！廢除監察院！請問審計長，如果監察院被廢除了，你認為審計權要由誰來行使？是要將審計權歸到立法院呢？還是另設一個獨立機關？我想聽聽您的意見。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：國際最高審計機關或者世界各國大部分都是獨立性，也有在國會，但是是少數，如美國就是在國會，但是像日本、新加坡、韓國、法國通通是獨立出來。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以審計長已經思考過這個問題了，也瞭解過了，可能在你任內就會發生喔！謝謝審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員詢問，謝謝審計長。","接下來請郭國文委員詢問，賴士葆委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},{"id":"163783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a1395843aa393b0adaab8992108cb222197a2d944b535faab16581c9668ff6a1ef9dbc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"15:12:19 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沈議長請教在過去審計部有發現超思雞蛋這個案件裡面有交易憑證不正確甚至有不法金額超過六千萬元經濟我們監察院跟審計部都不願意核銷但是北檢卻蜻蜓點水只有起訴三個人農業部不管是部長 市長 司長 科長 董事長全部都牽結不起訴你認為合理嗎"},{"start":162.029,"end":180.84,"text":"這是國家的體制因為我審計部發現的問題有違法施質依照審計法我送檢調如果有施質或者效能不彰我送監察院監察院檢調這一次有起訴我尊重司法的"},{"start":182.502,"end":204.016,"text":"市長我們可不可以請教一下當初超私雞蛋爭議的時候審計部的資料告訴我們說是損失至少有這個六千萬元不法金額而損失納稅人的錢是超過五億以上而這五億還不包括產業衝擊以及對人民的影響這審計部報告裡面清楚明白指出的嗎"},{"start":206.142,"end":218.866,"text":"對比這樣子不管是不法金額六千萬或者是我們損失五億以上就到最後只有下面的同仁來做負責上面決策單位沒有任何一個負責你覺得以實務經驗來講這樣合理嗎"},{"start":220.862,"end":240.683,"text":"這一個因為是書法的偵查權我們尊重書法偵查權那損失的預算該誰負責損失我們移送給監察院監察院糾正了農業部並彈劾了他的主辦書的書長還有他的相關同仁沈市長有沒有看到最近的一個新聞"},{"start":242.606,"end":255.42,"text":"這個清潔隊台北市清潔隊員回收價值32塊的二手電鍋轉送給一個拾荒婦女就會依貪污治罪條例法定五年以上有期徒刑來去被起訴"},{"start":256.53,"end":274.006,"text":"那結果這一個超失忌但全國那麼大關注審計報告裡面也清楚明白講了是不法金額有六千萬五億以上的一個損失結果到最後居然是以詐欺罪來做起訴癥結而不是用貪汙自罪條例會不會覺得雙重標準非常諷刺因為"},{"start":275.729,"end":293.822,"text":"他啟示的人員大概就是廠商還有細產會的人所以官員沒有任何的責任從上到下我相信連審計部門 法務部門所有大家都受到當時缺少雞蛋所苦"},{"start":295.417,"end":303.981,"text":"不客氣的講那是國難結果有人在這仇中發國難財結果決策單位沒有一個人要負責沒有一個領導階層或決策階層的人應該負責沈記長"},{"start":308.138,"end":332.188,"text":"這一個因為是國家有國家的體制因為我們的審計法是發現不法或者發現效能不彰或者發現失足所以您覺得這一次這樣的起訴你可以接受嗎以我們這樣子審計資料提出來的你可以接受因為這個是國家的體制我要做尊重"},{"start":333.291,"end":357.746,"text":"你不能只是尊重啊沈議長因為我已經做好的第一關他一種名義就講了如果說有任何的預算被濫用了那我們是不是應該要窮盡一切辦法讓該負責任的應該負責因為是這樣因為我們有三這個部分我們發現了剛剛委員有講單計好像和企業規定不合我們已經刪減他兩億七千多萬這兩億七千多萬除了減掉"},{"start":362.589,"end":363.73,"text":"我們國家不能讓外界認為只敢打"},{"start":383.968,"end":402.049,"text":"蒼蠅不敢打老虎只敢對清潔隊員32塊電鍋就用貪污治罪條例結果真真正正影響到全國人民的事情卻是高高舉起輕輕放下好你竟然有提到是說這有可能減掉的部分那另外我再請教就業安定基金"},{"start":403.376,"end":428.399,"text":"剪掉相對來講比較沒有直接的關係因為審計部分有特別點出來就業安定基金決算裡面用途關聯性不高應該予以收回有高達7224萬對吧對好那這個7224萬但是沒想到勞動部居然講是說他要用人民納稅前編列公務預算來回補這就業安定基金沈議長你可以同意嗎"},{"start":429.727,"end":455.636,"text":"這個因為我們認為關聯性不高勞動部要逐項查明如果因為其中啊也有送檢調的我們先講就業安定基金能不能去開演唱會能不能去拍影片做大內宣能不能去裝潢辦公室這個他勞動部要逐項查明逐項查明以後啊我們他會報如果"},{"start":456.556,"end":479.635,"text":"他是公務用途他會報行政院行政院會要不要給他編列預算這個由行政院決定大院會不會通過這個由大院決定那至於他要我們希望他基金和公務要把他劃分清楚這以免以後你們是把關預算執行的單位"},{"start":480.396,"end":508.022,"text":"那既然預算被這樣濫用了這樣的一個預算其實用途完全不符合我們也看到這樣的狀況了不管是開演唱會不管是辦公室裝修或者是影片一魚多吃一支影片變成五支然後分散來去做核銷那麼請教7224萬這個應該是跟這個執行者就是所謂的這些部長 司長來去做追查還是要由公務預算來買單"},{"start":509.741,"end":512.737,"text":"這個我們第一個要先追查他那些有沒有私用"},{"start":513.662,"end":537.814,"text":"就已經使用了嘛 所以你們點出來這不符合這個剪掉因為你是被提名人我們要知道你的態度跟專業能不能讓我們在現任6年把審計權交給你所以我們才想問的是說如果說遇到這樣的狀況到底是要行政部門去編列預算用人民納稅錢來回補還是應該由始作俑者來負起這個責任就這麼簡單"},{"start":540.035,"end":554.887,"text":"這一個是一個要因為這個是受及修法的問題所以我們移送檢調受及效能不彰的問題或者你濫用或者怎麼樣那我們已經移送監察案監察案"},{"start":556.392,"end":560.013,"text":"所以我們請勞動部查明他要審慎的來查明這個相關的現在就是官官相護嘛"},{"start":579.938,"end":597.888,"text":"因為我們看到官官相護 我們看到這個總共人民才會沒有辦法接受所以才期待一個獨立廉政專業創新的沈記長能夠點出問題我們還是會看這個收回的情形所以一句話 你認為是公務預算補可以還是認為應該要跟"},{"start":602.3,"end":628.841,"text":"這個要按根據用途事實查明的結果來作出處理你們的檢調報告都已經你們的審計報告都出來了他裝修辦公室可能是給公務用途公務用途他應該是用裝修漂漂亮亮的辦公室放盆栽或放景觀本來可能來 沈紀長您的辦公室裝修都多少錢我到我照任到現在要離開了"},{"start":630.697,"end":646.4,"text":"都沒裝修非常好本席在這一件因為我是續任所以我也沒有用我們辦公室裝修費用但是他用了100多萬裝修一個辦公室合理嗎我們說他這是公務用途嗎我們給他輸出有點胡亂我們請有點而已嗎我們已經請送請監察院調查沈議長是"},{"start":659.606,"end":687.112,"text":"專業獨立不要閃閃躲躲這是大家對你的期待不閃躲再來請教那個影片拍影片說金額宣傳金額用就案定基金來做宣傳推廣金額一直增加變成現在三年合計8億元都在做這個就業安定基金拿來拍影片這也是審計報告裡面點出來的問題我們就想問尤其這裡面最貓膩的事情他是使用開口合約"},{"start":689.834,"end":707.595,"text":"開口合約相對來講比較緊急的狀況比如說有可能預期的天災搶休嘛我就明白的請您告訴國人也宣示一下未來各部會機關能夠用基金預算來做開口合約做文宣媒體通路採購嗎"},{"start":709.181,"end":725.983,"text":"勞動部已經承認以後不這樣做了不是勞動部啊 那會不會其他部會所以我現在要問的是審計部你們的專業立場是能不能允許行政部門用開口合約來做文宣媒體通路採購這個我們要看"},{"start":727.026,"end":730.551,"text":"還要看 看什麼要看這個整個採購性質是怎麼樣這一種的應該不必用開口碑應該用搶修搶險當時設計是說災難來了"},{"start":741.607,"end":766.774,"text":"趕快 就用開口合約趕快找人把他搶修搶寫是 這個大家都知道所以他們現在濫用開口合約這樣的一個制度所以 本席剛剛的問題再次請教我們發現了這個問題未來各部會各基金能不能用開口合約來做媒體文宣通路採購我們會注意這個問題什麼叫你們會注意 能不能啦這個因為是有"},{"start":769.639,"end":783.847,"text":"因為這個主管機關是這個採購的主管機關是工程會我在我審計部的立場主能說我會注意他是不是能這樣那你會注意他能不能這樣對不能嘛"},{"start":785.016,"end":804.748,"text":"原則上因為這個我每個每個華都有主管機關我不能超越這個機關你們都不行我這要做客觀公正的提名人提名人預算都是人民的納稅錢你身為審計把關的單位一句能與不能"},{"start":805.728,"end":827.672,"text":"我其實 你講出來不要以為這個是陷阱給你跳而是你講出來之後未來各行政機關就是一個宣示這不分藍綠 不分黨派 不分朝野應該是說過去有人有這樣濫用這個機構我們就要告訴他不能用了原則上沒有特別的理由我尊重委員的意見是嗎 不行嘛獨立 廉政 專業 創新對"},{"start":830.612,"end":857.706,"text":"不要逼本席再一次強調要變成是刻在這應該照理講刻在你心裡的這個都貼在我們所謂的牆壁上所以說不要讓本席失望你的詢答讓國人認為沒有辦法再交給你六年法定義務支出我們剛剛都一直強調是說多給的要收回對不對一樣"},{"start":858.979,"end":882.174,"text":"應該要給的是不是應該要給法律上要給的就要給非常好法定義務支出一般性補助款算不算法定義務支出一般性補助款在他歸類的時候不管是4至391號4至520號解釋措施性的相關的一般性補助款其實就是法定義務支出是吧"},{"start":882.799,"end":910.061,"text":"主計總署也好 審計部也好都有這樣子在總預算裡面明白規定在總預算案的表件裡面它是列法定義務支出法定義務支出法定義務支出為依相關法令明文規定必須編列的經費即使行政部門無法因為財政困難而予以縮減或是刪除支出 是吧"},{"start":913.068,"end":937.517,"text":"因為他還要思考啊 還要辯解啊 沈記長對啦 這個是因為大案已經追加預算把這個問題解決了這不是解不解決問題 我現在問你的是實質的狀況你是沈記長 你站在一個公正的第三方的角度來看本席現在是想請教 一般性補助款是法定義務支出"},{"start":938.68,"end":966.554,"text":"那是歸類在法定一出剛剛委員也很認真的看到了大法官的事件如果確定法律一律一律作出我們應該是中央今天可以說夠高興我就把你給拿回來我今天不高興我就不要編中央今天可以扣除地方政府的一般性補助款四分之一然後把責任怪東怪西怪南怪北就是不檢討自己可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":968.15,"end":988.779,"text":"這個因為是在大院有給他一個636億的立法院可以刪除一般性補助款 立法院可以刪除法定義務支出嗎歷年來是沒有做過 對立法院沒有權利刪除法定義務支出憑什麼行政部門可以刪除法定義務支出之後然後推給立法院這是邏輯問題啊"},{"start":992.731,"end":1015.136,"text":"審計長這個是應該照預算的編制或者預算的審議應該要照法定義務支出來支出要照法例的規定來執行法定規定來執行那就是意思的是法定義務支出不能去刪減嘛來那另外您剛提到依照法令規定來執行"},{"start":1017.686,"end":1031.533,"text":"軍人待遇條例警察人士條例也在立法院正式三讀通過並且總統已經公告行政院沒有附議那依法行政是不是應該編列預算"},{"start":1034.94,"end":1049.699,"text":"這個法例通過了不要忘記喔 您剛剛上一秒才講說應該要依法例來執選現在法例怎麼規定但是行政院什麼時候編這個預算應該他有他的安排什麼叫行政院什麼時候編這個預算叫因為他預算的編註權法有相關的執行"},{"start":1052.422,"end":1074.709,"text":"施行事宜公告了 總統已經公告了在立法院 在行政院 一算的編制權在立行政院 這個是憲法的規定他有權利在行政院 但是依法啊他的權利也是法律給他的權利啊所以他是不是應該要依法行政所以他要把所有的條件 相關的法律條件啊 走完"},{"start":1076.446,"end":1099.76,"text":"他要把相關條件走完 什麼意思就是現在在釋憲 要請釋憲結束之後他才要編釋憲 或者是說 要復議這一個不難是說 還沒有釋憲以前要尊重大院的決議還沒有釋憲以前要尊重立法院的三讀通過法令並且總統公告沒有復議的決議"},{"start":1101.425,"end":1129.955,"text":"好 那現在他沒有尊重 他沒有編列完了 他是編住的時機 這是違法編住的時機沒有 他現在行政部門就直接講了我們支持中華民國的國軍我們支持警察消防所有人員的辛苦所以我們立法院正式三讀通過了軍人待遇條例以及警察人士條例明年的中央政府總預算送進來一樣超過三兆元但是沒有把這個編列進去"},{"start":1131.215,"end":1139.433,"text":"行政部門講什麼 講說現在還要釋憲如果釋憲完之後才要再來補相關的預算那我才請教沈記長 預算要怎麼追加"},{"start":1141.206,"end":1166.616,"text":"因為預算還送來 大胭還沒有開始審議所以大胭審議的時候因為預算的審議前我們可不可以依法 論法 就法對 它應該按法的來編所以今天委員提出來這個問題所以大胭在審議預算的時候也可以提出有這樣的一個情形所以現在是行政部門沒有依法行政 是吧"},{"start":1168.042,"end":1193.505,"text":"這個因為剛剛委員有講到他們可能有一點還在整個行政部門還在整個盤算盤算還可以怎麼盤算這就是現在中華民國政府在民進黨政府主政之下最大的問題所有事情都不依法行政都在盤算都在算計都在想的是怎麼樣對自己的政治利益最好沒有依法行政就是現在最大的問題您可以同意嗎"},{"start":1195.493,"end":1209.99,"text":"這一個我去評論 不同意因為我是審計的 是事後審計的是 就是因為你是審計就是因為我剛剛一直強調你要獨立 廉政 專業 創新所以本席才會依法 論法 就法請教您"},{"start":1210.771,"end":1235.856,"text":"因為你是被提名的所以本席尊重你本席才會希望看到未來你是不是能夠依法行政當人民給你權利要你做獨立廉政專業創新的時候你能不能不懼老虎講出真話而不是現在還要看風向台灣已經被政治耽誤太久了我們要的是依法行政所以現在沒有依法行政的行政部門是不是應該被譴責這整個流程"},{"start":1259.417,"end":1270.643,"text":"好 好 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟凱委員的詢問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":37,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（15時12分）主席謝謝，麻煩請陳審計長被提名人。"],["主席：麻煩被提名人陳審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長及被提名人，你好。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：你好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：6年前也是在這個場合受到蔡英文前總統的提名，請教再次被提名會不會感覺到意外？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：應該是有點意外。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼說有點意外？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：年紀已大。"],["洪委員孟楷：年紀已大，但是國家需要你的時候還是要義不容辭，是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，因為在審計部可以為國家、為人民做一點事。"],["洪委員孟楷：為國家、為人民，立法部門如此，行政部門、審計部門也應當如此。我們看到過去審計部公布中央政府總預算的審核報告，也揭露不少預算缺失，包括兩兆多元的前瞻預算、特別預算施政不力，但還被監察院院長在會議中質詢、質問不應該引起外界的解讀落差。","審計長，我們想請教，再次被告知被提名為新任審計長的時候，有沒有特別交代你什麼？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你保證可以堅守審計權、為數字說話？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：把關預算，跟國人一起捍衛？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。國會會力挺審計權，因為我們要追討的是濫花、濫用的預算，預算當用則用、當省則省，該用的我們國會不會惡意的去阻撓，但是如果不當用的，或是濫花的，也一定要追討回來，您同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教審計長，在過去審計部有發現超思雞蛋這個案件裡面，有交易憑證不正確，甚至有不法金額超過6,000萬元，監察院跟審計部都不願意核銷，但是北檢卻蜻蜓點水只有起訴3個人，農業部不管是部長、次長、司長、科長或是董事長全部都簽結不起訴，你認為合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是國家的體制，審計部發現有違法失職的問題，依照審計法我們會送檢調，如果有失職或者效能不彰，我們會送監察院，而檢調這次是否有起訴，我尊重司法的審判結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：我可不可以請教一下？當初超思雞蛋爭議的時候，審計部的資料告訴我們至少有6,000萬元不法金額，而損失納稅人的錢是超過5億以上，這5億還不包括產業衝擊以及對人民的影響，這審計部報告裡面清楚明白指出的嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對的。"],["洪委員孟楷：不管是不法金額6,000萬或者是損失5億以上，結果到最後只有下面的同仁來負責，上面決策單位沒有任何一個負責。以實務經驗來講，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是司法的偵查權，我們尊重司法偵查權。"],["洪委員孟楷：那損失的預算該由誰負責？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：有關損失的部分，我們已移送給監察院，監察院也糾正了農業部，並彈劾了他們主辦司的司長，還有相關同仁。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，有沒有看到最近的一個新聞，臺北市清潔隊隊員把回收價值32元的二手電鍋轉送給一個拾荒婦女，就被依貪污治罪條例、法定5年以上有期徒刑起訴，結果這超思雞蛋爭議，全國那麼大關注，審計報告裡面也清楚明白講了，不法金額有6,000萬、5億以上的損失，結果到最後居然是以詐欺罪來做起訴偵結，而不是用貪污治罪條例，會不會覺得雙重標準，非常諷刺？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為他們起訴的人員，大概就是廠商還有畜產會的相關人員。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以官員沒有任何的責任？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個部分是……"],["洪委員孟楷：從上到下？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是檢調的調查……"],["洪委員孟楷：我相信連審計部門、法務部門，所有大家都受到當時缺少雞蛋所苦啊！我不客氣的講，那是國難啊！有人從中發國難財，結果決策單位沒有一個人要負責，沒有一個領導階層或決策階層的人應該負責！審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這是因為國家有國家的體制，我們審計是發現不法、發現效能不彰或者發現失職，我們的審計法……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這一次這樣的起訴，您覺得可以接受嗎？以你們提出這樣的審計資料，你可以接受？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這是國家的體制，我要尊重。"],["洪委員孟楷：你不能只是尊重啊！審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我已經做了我們的第一關……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們開宗明義就講了，如果有任何的預算被濫用了，我們是不是應該要窮盡一切辦法，讓該負責任的人負責？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：就像剛剛委員講的，因為這部分我們發現單據好像和契約規定不合，我們已經刪減他們兩億七千多萬，這兩億七千多萬，除了檢調查出來的六千多萬有問題以外，這兩億多還是要看他們的單據是不是符合法規規定，這是我們審計的職責。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們國家不能讓外界認為只敢打蒼蠅、不敢打老虎，只敢對清潔隊員32元電鍋用貪污治罪條例，結果真真正正影響到全國人民的事情，卻是高高舉起、輕輕放下。好！被提名人既然有提到這可能有檢調的部分，那我另外再請教就業安定基金，這跟檢調相對來講比較沒有直接關係，因為審計部有特別點出來，就業安定基金決算裡面，有高達7,224萬因用途關聯性不高應該予以收回，對吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。針對這7,224萬，沒想到勞動部居然講要用人民納稅錢編列公務預算來回補就業安定基金。審計長，你可以同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為我們認為關聯性不高，所以勞動部要逐項查明，這其中有送檢調的，也有送監察院的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們先講就業安定基金能不能去開演唱會？能不能去拍影片做大內宣？能不能去裝潢辦公室？不行嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：勞動部要逐項查明。逐項查明以後會報，如果是公務用途會報行政院，至於行政院要不要編列預算，由行政院決定；大院會不會通過，由大院決定。我們希望基金和公務要劃分清楚，以免以後……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，你們是把關預算執行的單位，因為預算被這樣濫用了，跟預算用途完全不符合，我們也看到這樣的狀況，不管是開演唱會，不管是辦公室裝修或者是影片一魚多吃，一支影片變成五支，分散做核銷。我們請教，7,224萬應該是跟執行者即向部長、司長做追查，還是要由公務預算來買單？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：第一個，我們要先追查他有沒有私用……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經使用了，所以你們才點出來不符合啊……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：檢調……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，因為你是被提名人，所以我們要知道你的態度跟專業能不能讓我們再信任六年，把審計權交給你！因此我們想問的是，如果遇到這樣的狀況，到底是要行政部門去編列預算，用人民的納稅錢來回補？還是應該由始作俑者來負起責任？就這麼簡單。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為這個涉及司法問題，所以我們移送檢調；也涉及效能不彰問題，或者濫用，或者怎麼樣，所以我們已經移送監察院，監察院也糾正了、也彈劾了，檢調……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然糾正了、既然彈劾了，是不是代表那個濫用預算的人有責任？是不是應該由他來回補預算給國家？而不是用人民的納稅錢去回補基金？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以我們請勞動部查明，它要審慎來查明相關的……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，現在就是官官相護嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們就是看到官官相護，就是看到這種狀況，人民才會沒有辦法接受，才會期待一個獨立、廉政、專業、創新的審計長能夠點出問題！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們還是會看收回的情形，所以我們減列……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，一句話：你認為可以用公務預算補，還是認為應該要跟部長、司長追討？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個要根據用途事實查明結果來做處分。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經查明了，你們的審計報告都已經出來了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：雖然關聯性不高，但裝修辦公室可能是公務用途；公務用途應該是用……"],["洪委員孟楷：裝修成漂漂亮亮的辦公室，放盆栽或放景觀，本來可能……審計長，您的辦公室裝修花多少錢？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：從我到任到現在要離開了都沒裝修。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好！本席在這一屆、因為我是續任，所以我也沒有使用辦公室裝修費用，但是他用了一百多萬來裝修一個辦公室，合理嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們說它……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是公務用途嗎？這算公務用途嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：支出有點浮濫，我們請……"],["洪委員孟楷：有點而已嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們已經送請監察院調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，要專業獨立，不要閃閃躲躲……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不閃躲！"],["洪委員孟楷：這是大家對你的期待。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：不閃躲。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，用就業安定基金來拍影片做宣傳推廣，結果金額一直增加，現在變成三年合計8億元，都把就業安定基金拿來拍影片，這也是審計報告裡面點出來的問題。我們就想問，因為這裡面最貓膩的是使用開口合約，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，我們查到用開口合約……"],["洪委員孟楷：相對來講，開口合約是比較緊急的狀況，譬如可能預期有天災……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：搶修、搶險。"],["洪委員孟楷：搶修嘛！好，我請您明白的告訴國人，也宣示一下，未來各部會機關可以用基金預算來做開口合約、做文宣媒體通路採購嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：勞動部已經承認以後不會這樣做了。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是勞動部，會不會有其他部會？所以我現在要問審計部，你們的專業立場能不能允許行政部門用開口合約來做文宣媒體通路採購？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個要看。"],["洪委員孟楷：還要看什麼？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：要看整個採購性質是怎麼樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：看現在誰執政？看裡面拍得好不好？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般來說，這種的應該不必採用開口合約，應該用……當時的設計是：災難來了，趕快用開口合約、趕快找人來搶修、搶險。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，這個大家都知道，所以他們濫用開口合約的制度。所以本席剛剛的問題再次請教審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們發現了這個問題，也請他們去改進。"],["洪委員孟楷：未來各部會、各基金能不能用開口合約來做媒體文宣通路採購？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們會注意這個問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼叫你們會注意？能不能啦？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為採購法的主管機關是工程會，在我審計部的立場只能說我會注意它是不是能這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：你會注意它能不能這樣？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：原則上，因為每個法都有主管機關，我不能超越這個機關說你們都不行，我要做客觀公正的一些……"],["洪委員孟楷：被提名人！被提名人……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是，不敢當。"],["洪委員孟楷：預算都是人民的納稅錢……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是，我們都注意到……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今天身為審計把關的單位，一句能與不能，其實你講出來，不要以為這個是陷阱給你跳，而是你講出來之後，未來對各行政機關就是一個宣示，這不分藍綠、不分黨派、不分朝野……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：原則上……"],["洪委員孟楷：應該是說過去有人這樣濫用這個機制，我們就要告訴他不能用了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：原則上沒有特別的理由，我尊重委員的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！不行嘛！獨立、廉政、專業、創新……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要逼本席再一次強調，要變成是刻在……照理講，這個應該是刻在你心裡的……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我們心裡的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個都貼在我們所有的牆壁上。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不要讓本席失望你的詢答，讓國人認為沒有辦法再交給你6年。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為各有分際。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來是法定義務支出，我們剛剛都一直強調的是多給的要收回，對不對？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：一樣，應該要給的是不是應該要給？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：法律上要給的就要給。"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好！法定義務支出，一般性補助款算不算法定義務支出？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：一般性補助款在歸類的時候……"],["洪委員孟楷：不管是釋字391號、釋字520號解釋，措施性相關的一般性補助款其實就是法定義務支出，是吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：主計總處也好，審計部也好，都有這樣的在總預算裡面明白規定。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：在總預算案的表件裡面，它是列法律義務支出。"],["洪委員孟楷：法定義務支出，法定義務支出為依相關法令明文規定必須編列的經費，即行政部門無法因為財政困難而予以緊縮或刪減的支出，是吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個因為它……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個還要思考、還要辯解啊？審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對啦，因為大院已經追加預算把這個問題解決了。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是解不解決的問題，我現在問你的是實質的狀況，你是審計長，你站在一個公正的第三方的角度來看，本席現在只是想請教，一般性補助款是法定義務支出，可以刪減嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它是歸類在法律義務支出，剛剛委員很認真的看到了大法官的釋憲，如果確定是法律義務支出，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以可以刪減嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：應該是各部門都要遵守……"],["洪委員孟楷：中央今天可以說我高興就把它給拿回來、我今天不高興就不要編，中央今天可以扣除地方政府的一般性補助款四分之一，然後把責任怪東、怪西、怪南、怪北，就是不檢討自己，可以這樣子嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個因為是大院有給它一個636億的……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院可以刪除一般性補助款？立法院可以刪除法定義務支出嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：歷年來是沒有這樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：不行嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院沒有權力刪除法定義務支出，憑什麼行政部門可以刪除法定義務支出之後，然後再推給立法院？這是邏輯問題啊！審計長。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個應該照預算的編製或者預算的審議，應該要照這個原則來執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：照法定義務支出來支出？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：要照法律的規定來執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：法定的規定來執行？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：意思就是法定義務支出不能刪減嘛！","另外，您剛剛提到依照法令規定來執行，軍人待遇條例、警察人事條例也在立法院正式三讀通過，並且總統已經公告，行政院沒有提覆議，依法行政是不是應該編列預算？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個法律通過了……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要忘記喔，您剛剛上一秒才講說應該要依法律來執行喔！現在法令怎麼規定？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，要依法律，但是行政院什麼時候編這個預算應該有它的安排。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼叫行政院什麼時候編這個預算有它的安排？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為它有預算的編製權。"],["洪委員孟楷：法有相關的執行、施行日期……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：預算的編製權在……"],["洪委員孟楷：公告了、總統已經公告了！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：預算的編製權在行政院，這個是憲法的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：權力在行政院，但是要依法啊！這個權力也是法律給它的權力啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：它要依法、它要依法，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它是不是應該要依法行政？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以它要把所有的條件，相關的法律條件走完，如果走完確定……"],["洪委員孟楷：它要把相關的條件走完，什麼意思？就是現在在釋憲，要等釋憲結束之後才要編？是不是？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：釋憲或者是說要覆議……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，可以這樣子解釋法令嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個本來是說還沒有釋憲以前要尊重大院的決議。"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有釋憲以前要尊重立法院三讀通過的法令，並且經總統公告後沒有覆議的決議？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，現在它沒有尊重、沒有編列，這是不是違憲？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：編製的時機……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是違法？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：編製的時機……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有啊！現在行政部門就直接講啦，我們支持中華民國的國軍，我們支持警察、消防所有人員的辛苦，所以我們立法院正式三讀通過了軍人待遇條例以及警察人事條例，但明年度的中央政府總預算送進來，一樣超過3兆元，但是並沒有把這個編列進去啊！而行政部門講什麼？講說現在還要釋憲，要等釋憲完之後才要再來補相關的預算，所以我才請教審計長，預算要怎麼追加？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：因為預算送來後大院還沒有開始審議，所以大院審議的時候，因為預算的審議權……"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，我們可不可以依法論法、就法……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：對，它應該按法來編，所以今天委員提出來的這個問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為這樣子，所以你不要忘記你剛剛講到應該要依法行政……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以大院在審議預算的時候也可以提出有這樣的一個情形。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在是行政部門沒有依法行政，是吧？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個，因為剛剛委員有講到，他們可能有一點還在……整個行政部門還在盤算、盤整……"],["洪委員孟楷：還可以怎麼盤算？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：還要釋憲……"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是現在中華民國政府在民進黨政府主政之下最大的問題，所有事情都不依法行政，都在盤算、都在算計，想的都是怎麼樣對自己的政治利益最好，沒有依法行政就是現在最大的問題，您可以同意嗎？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：不同意？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我不去評論，因為我是審計、是事後審計權。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，就是因為你是審計，就是因為我剛剛一直強調，你要獨立、廉政、專業、創新，所以本席才會依法論法、就法的來請教您……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：這個因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你是被提名人，所以本席尊重您，本席才會希望看到未來你是不是能夠依法行政。當人民給你權力要你做獨立、廉政、專業、創新的時候，你能不能不懼老虎講出真話，而不是現在還要看風向……"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：我不看風向，因為這整個流程……"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣已經被政治耽誤太久了！我們要的是依法行政，所以現在沒有依法行政的行政部門是不是應該被譴責？"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：現在整個流程還在大院審議，還沒有到執行，也還沒有到……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院可以增加預算嗎？不行啊！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：但是可以提出……"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院不可以增加預算，所以才要行政部門編列預算，但現在連編都沒編，這才是最大的問題嘛！"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：所以可以決議意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：審計長，我們期待你真的發揮你的專業，不用看風向。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：做好過去6年你做的事情，謝謝。"],["陳瑞敏被提名人：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長，謝謝。","接下來請陳昭姿委員詢問，郭國文委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-4-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","洪孟楷","陳昭姿","郭國文","賴士葆","鍾佳濱","林德福","李坤城"],"page_start":95,"meetingDate":["2025-09-19"],"gazette_id":"1147701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名\n陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案","agenda_id":"1147701_00004"}}},{"id":"163778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a1395865e40ddc6176fcbaf1ae621572fec62015037a6925ac6f52f2364352bfb7cb845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:25:46 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那麼這人選不變過去他這些年的表現"},{"start":82.952,"end":110.189,"text":"其实已经制定有评价并不是对新任人选进行同意人审查有些推论所以人不变那什么在变呢好我们来看一下审计权有没有变审计的职权诚如刚刚几位学者所说有财务审计有绩效审计财务审计就合法性进行审计绩效审计呢有一些绩效性的审计还有财务为师的审为师的审查当然对于未竞职责者要报告上级机关还有监察院"},{"start":110.789,"end":130.885,"text":"制度缺失者要提出改善建議有可以增進公益者要提出建議意見甚至剛剛也有提到了對於潛在風險的事項比如說勞保的潛在負債要提出預警性的意見這都是審計權應該含有的項目接下來我們看審計單位的職能外部監督政府財務所以除了機關所長一條邊市的領導之外審計機關也放入了這樣的一個機構來進行但是我們要強調的"},{"start":137.33,"end":158.659,"text":"这是一种事后监督各政府机关就像监察权跟立法权的最大的一个很大的差别监察权是事后权但是如果当事人有不法或违私的责任的时候呢比如财务上的违私要送上级那么要负起刑责或者惩戒的处分那么如果执行效能不彰可以提出审计报告机关要回复"},{"start":159.119,"end":185.394,"text":"而當事人要負政治責任好了這裡面又出現一個問題審計法有沒有要求剛剛學者所提出的要提出的鑑定報告有沒有能力在行政權跟立法權發生爭執的時候進行第三方客觀的一些建議很抱歉目前憲政的體制當中並不是由監察權來扮演這個角色是由司法權如果我們憲法規定的由憲法法庭依據憲訴法來進行"},{"start":187.932,"end":214.894,"text":"立法權跟行政權是否合憲性的審查如果還跳出了一個監察權的審計長可以就兩院的爭執或是行政權的重大政策予以張皮那不只要修法可能還要修憲因此對於審計法目前在沒有變的情況之下我們來看一看那是什麼變了人選不變法制不變那麼什麼變了"},{"start":216.107,"end":234.689,"text":"在于我们看到的有人说财政是数证之母财政是所有行政最重要的一个核心所以什么变了呢攸关财政的财政收支划分法变了这个变迁我们来回顾一下当中我们看到财政收支划分法顾名思义它有三个块面"},{"start":235.799,"end":260.492,"text":"第一個就是統籌分配款這當中有垂直的分配跟水平的分配垂直分配當中針對要分配的所得稅營業稅和貨物稅進行跟中央跟地方的百分比的分配但是更重要的就是水平的分配分配到地方的統籌分配稅款根據什麼方式來分配個限式呢基本上會根據他的財政貢獻度營利事業越多的統籌分配稅"},{"start":261.292,"end":275.846,"text":"就越多可以说在这个制度之下是富者横富平者易平因此统络分配税款的分配它还有背后的因素待会会讲就是除了税款中央跟地方的水平垂直分配之外"},{"start":276.867,"end":297.666,"text":"市权是否跟着财政一定移转这是我们要关切的统筹分配税款不只关心到水平的分配社会上的公示是否允当也是要垂直的分配是否能够将宪法当中所规定的中央跟地方分权依据这些财政的收入来予以分配那我们来看一下一般性补助款"},{"start":298.266,"end":321.598,"text":"一般基金補助款基本上有教育補助、社會福利補助、基本設施補助、其他基本支出還有平衡預算補助這當中對於經常性、普及性、基本建設及維運性質的還有很重要的財政均衡其實因為對於財政容忽不同的縣市當涉算你的基本財政需求之後我們中央政府會對於比例預作區隔"},{"start":322.538,"end":342.231,"text":"意思是說理解到各地方這種的承擔能力跟他的基本需求之後在這個負擔比例上予以調整老實說一般性補助能動的也很少那什麼才是最重要的財政目標呢有人說受人以魚不能受人以魚啊前者的魚是魚後者的魚是釣竿所以在"},{"start":342.833,"end":368.876,"text":"我們看到一個般的社會現象如果所得高的他其實不需要協助收入低的在基本需求相同的情況下他需要額外的協助協助他什麼呢協助他進行自我的投資比如說有人在說社會流動會因為教育學歷的提高那麼他未來的社會收入會提高把這個道理回來看一下那到底在我們新版財化法當中或者原版的財化法當中誰扮演這個角色就是計劃型補助款"},{"start":369.597,"end":386.622,"text":"所謂的統籌分配款在水平分配根據財政貢獻度來分配平者易平 負者橫負在一般性補助款來講大家的需求大致是各有各自的需求中央市地方的需求跟承擔能力與調整真正能夠達到改善城鄉分差距"},{"start":387.702,"end":415.532,"text":"調節我們國家支出的就是屬於計劃型的補助他鼓勵各地方政府主動提案來提高對未來的貢獻度當這樣的計劃型補助發生效果的時候各地方政府他在未來的財政貢獻度就開始有所改變會讓原來收入低的有可能因為這樣的收入提高之後減少對中央的仰仗但是我們看到這次財務法法他最大最大被討論的是這些課題嗎很抱歉不是他被討論到的是什麼"},{"start":416.627,"end":444.75,"text":"對不起怎麼不會動了呢OK好就是什麼就是引起爭議的財政收支劃分法第16條之一在議長的版本當中錯誤的將本島的19個縣市跟離島的3個縣市分別都以全國的22個縣市做分母結果造成了在本島的16個19個縣市有0.2的款項無法分配結果呢在離島的部分有99.8%無法分配這樣的一個低級荒唐居然出現在"},{"start":447.216,"end":469.553,"text":"蔑視我們立法過程的程序性正義而發生了這樣的一個低級錯誤卻成為這次財化法這整個重點我們來看一下回歸到審計權當財化法被這樣的一個進行破壞肢解之後我們看到了原來原來本來地方政府執行的成效也是審計的對象"},{"start":470.774,"end":486.79,"text":"但是我們看到的在審計報告當中說到了有關於地方政府在計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況還有管理作業欠當的情況之下在野黨卻一味的挾著國會的多數強行碾壓提高地方政府的財政"},{"start":488.41,"end":510.721,"text":"反而中央因輕應辦的事務沒有足夠的裁員來支撐請問下這樣的私人權分配有符合裁劃法它本質上的精神嗎又考慮到地方政府的執行量能還有在未來我們的審計人力的分布各地方的審計室是否有足夠的人力來救地方政府額外增加的這些裁員去執行同樣的事務"},{"start":512.096,"end":537.395,"text":"而進行審計呢我要強調一次在市權沒有重新調配的情況之下地方政府額外徵收的財政收入他只在執行同樣的正式同樣規模的正式支出這種情況之下審計就面臨到一個很龐大的挑戰那另外我們也看到了在113年度這方政府的總決算審核報告當中他有提到要去以檢討評鑑模式提高鑑別度"},{"start":538.646,"end":566.869,"text":"我們的審計不是只有針對中央政府針對地方政府在未來龐大的財政收入相同的正式支出他怎麼樣去檢討建立這樣的模式設定標準而且用同樣的方法更重要的中央依考核結果增減地方型一般性補助館的分配其實過去歷來都未達增減未達1%表示過去中央政府在既有的財政收支發展上下對地方的激勵跟苛責的效果是有限的"},{"start":567.526,"end":597.186,"text":"所以最后我们要主张要审计要审查的不是审计长个人过去的表现审计部的整体表现我们主张审计部应该针对地方政府调配审计人员及补足具专业能力的审计人员应应对新版的财政收支方法执行审计业务审计部也应该确实督导调整审核和评鉴之模式标准及方法以提升鉴别度并落实激励及克制的效果"},{"start":597.686,"end":607.044,"text":"總而言之今天我們要審計的不是一個審計長個人的一個是否升任他要審查整個審計制度在財化法遭到破壞之下未來的挑戰以上"}]}},{"id":"16907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16907","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8398b1826590a60997e00f4fa55ef9691106844fc4b344661771dcf01385b395bb972c33c0a99fd15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-09-19T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會「行使審計部審計長同意權案」公聽會（事由：第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會「行使審計部審計長同意權案」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-09-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-09-19T10:15:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-09-19T12:30:00+08:00","duration":8064,"影片長度":"02:14:24","委員發言時間":"10:15:36 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謝謝我們現在開始正式開會我們非常感謝今天列席的所有的學者專家本院的委員以及在場的女士先生們 大家好今天我們舉行省紀長人事同意權公聽會是依照本會期第一次會議所作之決定辦理依據中華民國憲法 省紀部組織法 省紀法等規定省紀部執掌監督預算之執行"},{"start":935.918,"end":963.267,"text":"審定決算及中立審計業務等事項以促進政府財政透明與匡正財政機率因此審計長對於政府預算制執行監督肩負的職責是非常重大本月依照憲法附託代表人民行使同意權針對被提名人資格進行審查因此舉辦本次公聽會以作為審查的參考本次受"},{"start":964.48,"end":988.986,"text":"三個黨團推薦出席的學者專家皆是在領域內長期努力深獲肯定的重要代表我們在此非常非常感謝各位的參加也具備了豐富的學養相信各位學者專家一定能夠為我們本院的委員提供寶貴的意見在此再一次要感謝各位學者專家不知辛勞在參與我們今天的公聽會針對"},{"start":991.055,"end":1010.761,"text":"今天公聽會的程序,我們現在做以下宣告。1.發言時程,每位學者專家發表時間10分鐘。審查小組委員,每位詢問時間同樣為10分鐘。本院委員發言完畢之後,再由學者專家代表綜合答覆30分鐘。"},{"start":1012.182,"end":1029.044,"text":"因此,请各位学者专家发表告见之后,也能够听取本院各党团所推派之委员代表之询问发言。最后,还要请各位学者专家能够赐教答复,等今天整个议程圆满结束之后,再行离开。"},{"start":1029.565,"end":1042.544,"text":"二 发言顺序先由学者专家发言次由审查小组委员发言最后再由学者专家综合答复相关的发言顺序请参阅陈列于各位桌上的名单"},{"start":1044.022,"end":1071.369,"text":"各党团所推举的学者专家审查小组委员如果不在场或必要时得互相调换次序另外在发言时间结束前一分钟我们会按一个短铃发言时间届满时我们会按一个长铃现在我们开始进行发言首先我们非常荣幸请吕玉成教授请发言谢谢吕教授 请"},{"start":1073.352,"end":1102.161,"text":"院長還有在座各位委員先進是不是請院長容許我坐著來講話好嗎非常歡迎請今天非常榮幸有這樣的機會來參加這個審計長同意權公聽會我想這個審計長從108年開始受總統提名擔任審計長現在不管是在這個工作上資歷上我想應該已經非常的賢手所以我今天主要的這個意見"},{"start":1103.621,"end":1118.252,"text":"就像我所準備的資料一樣,主要就是期待省紀長在這個新的任期內能夠將過去省紀部所提出的一些政策目標或者是一些政策的理念"},{"start":1118.672,"end":1145.91,"text":"乃至於一些具體的做法能夠更加的落實而且能夠更加的精進所以我的結論很簡單就是從內部跟外部兩個部分希望讓這個審計整體架構這個左邊的這個圖事實上就是審計部自己在這個網站上所公開的所謂的這個審計的一個未來績效價值跟這個效益的架構"},{"start":1146.704,"end":1168.893,"text":"那要達成這個架構,我認為從目前我所收集到的資料,大概可以從兩個部分來處理。第一個就是內部。內部就是關於人員的能力跟工作條件的優化。同時,除了既有的以會計、統計,乃至於審計為主的人力來源中,更強化績效審計。"},{"start":1169.893,"end":1182.063,"text":"那麼從外部的角度來說,我覺得審計部主要還是得要去落實憲法中修條文第七條,關於監察權的事項。那麼在這個基礎上,可以從過去我們強調機核的觀點,來更強調績效跟專業課程。這是我今天發言的一個結論。"},{"start":1195.074,"end":1216.101,"text":"基於剛才的對內跟對外,接下來我就簡單地把為什麼剛才提出這些觀點的內容跟各位委員或是先進報告。第一個就是所謂的優化審計人員工作條件。這張投影片上面所呈現的是審計機關的性別乃至於審計機關的年齡。"},{"start":1219.503,"end":1243.145,"text":"我不知道各位如果去看左邊的這個圖,從103年到113年,女性的占比大幅度的增高。我所謂的女性的占比,並不是強調著所謂的性別或者是這種性別的差異,而是特別去凸顯我們說整個審計人員的這個組成的結構上可能有一個巨大的改變。"},{"start":1244.249,"end":1267.423,"text":"那麼右邊的這張圖,我要強調的是,省紀部是一條邊的組織運作。那除了中央之外,可能我們也要去注意到地方,特別是縣的人力配置。可是我們看在29歲以下,在宜蘭等等各縣的省紀市,事實上幾乎沒有男性。"},{"start":1268.983,"end":1285.526,"text":"所以我要強調就是我們已經不能再用過去那種審計人員的人力組成的概念來看未來的人力的配置所以我提出所謂的攬財、留財跟用財這三個基本的思考所謂的攬財意思是"},{"start":1286.187,"end":1305.18,"text":"而我們可能要正視一下整個人力組成,乃至於人力配置的適合性。那麼我們怎麼樣去把年輕世代的意願帶進來,怎麼樣運用這些資深的人力。我想省紀部在網站上也特別強調怎麼樣去徵才,"},{"start":1308.722,"end":1332.913,"text":"過去的這樣的思維恐怕沒有辦法去爭取尤其是年輕世代對於審計工作特別是我想在座可以理解很多人對審計這一個概念其實是非常模糊的不熟悉的如果再考慮上外部的競爭力恐怕這個問題會更加的嚴重這是我認為新任的陳審議長可能要去重視的一個問題"},{"start":1334.441,"end":1358.213,"text":"另外一個省紀部有一個很特殊的就是,除了省紀官之外,還有行政人員,也就是一般的文官。那這兩類的人員要怎麼樣去做搭配,怎麼樣去運用這個專業?好比說省紀部這幾年當然也在推AI、在推一些數據,但是從現有的人力結構是不是能夠去指引這樣的一個工作的需求?所以我的重點在於,怎麼樣去優化這個工作的條件?"},{"start":1358.993,"end":1385.405,"text":"那麼有了工作條件優化之後就要去強化這個能力這兩張投影片所要強調的就是左邊就是我們傳統上審計人員的來源他主要就是統計、會計來自於審計這個高考三級的來源那麼各位長官看一下像這樣的一個應考的資格跟應考的條件是不是能夠滿足右邊這是審計部自己所說的工作的挑戰"},{"start":1386.405,"end":1413.17,"text":"那我覺得這中間還是有相當大的落差那未來是不是可能在這樣的一個情況之下再考慮我所列出左下角的那三個第一個就是所謂的績效審計幾年前審計部曾經有開績效審計的這個考試的一課那麼後來呢也是做了一個改革但是未來因應這個時空環境的改變跟業務的需求是不是可能再考量這樣的一個或者是"},{"start":1414.31,"end":1440.904,"text":"績效審計這個類科,這個人力來源,或者是這樣的一個專業的一個引進,不見得是不是要透過國家考試,也可能是第二點,引進外部的這些專業的人才。我的意思還是在於,如果審計要發揮功能,恐怕不能再循傳統的這種高不考的方式來引進,可能要更加的去跟社會的專業能夠去做結合。"},{"start":1441.664,"end":1457.298,"text":"那麼當然這個就會涉及到人員的升遷還有這個搭配的這個部分那不可否認審計部當然也是一個行政機關但是在考量到他的業務的獨特性跟機關業務的需求上是不是也要做人力調度上的一個"},{"start":1459.234,"end":1486.113,"text":"那麼對外的部分我也是兩個觀點第一個 審計部當然對政府來說一般機關來說他很強調他的這個財務預算等等的這個集合的工作但是畢竟從憲法正修條例第七條來說他還是要去搭配監察權的行使那我想在左邊的這個圖也是審計部自己公開的一個資料他希望審計部不只是一個"},{"start":1487.774,"end":1506.263,"text":"積合的工作它還要能夠對民眾生活產生正面的影響我覺得非常符合現在我們社會大眾對於審計功能的期待所以未來在工作規範、工作標準乃至於人員的安心工作上"},{"start":1507.143,"end":1525.503,"text":"可能要去更強調心力的部分我特別強調第三點我想很多一般行政機關的同仁一聽到審計部要來機關做一些考朝視察大系裡面都是七上八包括我們台北大學也是一樣可是我覺得審計部的角色不應該只是去"},{"start":1526.644,"end":1550.992,"text":"抓這個弊端應該更強的是幫幫這個人員去解決問題譬如說我們很多的這些特殊的譬如說一些費用的支印或者是一些採購等等的可能人員的專業能力不足這個時候就需要審計人員事先告訴我們什麼是可以做什麼是不能做我覺得用這樣的角度來思考這個審計權的發揮會更有意義"},{"start":1554.033,"end":1575.107,"text":"那麼對外的部分,我想這個陳審計長在他的這個自傳中也提到,他蠻重視這個美國GAO,就是所謂的會計總署的一個內容。左邊這張圖就是從昨天從GAO的這個官網上所下載下來他們的政策使命。那麼我覺得這幾個項目,特別是我用紅線標下來這幾個項目,剛好也蠻符合"},{"start":1579.47,"end":1598.172,"text":"審計長在審計部的網站上所公開的,乃至於我們未來,假設我們要符合剛才所說的滿足民眾的需求,可能要考慮到的。那麼我想,審計部在目前的這個整個政府的審計業務上,它在專業性已經非常足夠。那麼未來,"},{"start":1599.493,"end":1621.874,"text":"簡單的講就是要怎麼樣把這個專業性跟這個民眾的需求來自於社會的期待做一個結合那我覺得GAO這邊所提到數據、課則、協力、透明這四大項目非常符合審計部未來在業務推動上融入的一些內容"},{"start":1622.635,"end":1638.748,"text":"特別是這個客者我想那個GAO過去是所謂的audit現在已經變成所謂的accountability這就是所謂的客者的這個議題換句話說它不只是財務責任的一個追究它更強調的是這一個能夠"},{"start":1640.71,"end":1656.951,"text":"讓機關能夠去承擔它應該負的責任我覺得這是一個很重要的重點最後我的結論就是這一張三角題也是審計部在網站上公開他說審計機關專業發展模型我覺得這個模型很棒"},{"start":1657.532,"end":1686.401,"text":"但是重點不是這個模型很棒應該是怎麼樣這個模型能夠發揮它應該有的所以我的結論還是在回應到剛才所說的我們今天不只是去談一個法定機關的一個首長的這一個任命它更重要的是怎麼樣去發揮它應有的專業功能以上 謝謝謝謝李玉成 李教授精彩的發言非常感謝接下來我們請馬秀儒教授請給他稿規一些 謝謝"},{"start":1687.765,"end":1705.247,"text":"主席、委員、專家、學者、在場的各位大家好,我是馬秀如,政大會計系的退休老師。我教審計,教很久,所以我對審計的觀念不會模糊。"},{"start":1707.386,"end":1722.773,"text":"我今天來跟各位報告,就是我看這些資料的一些心得我很早以前就認得現任的沉沈機長然後那個時候是民國七十八年的時候"},{"start":1723.593,"end":1726.835,"text":"民國78年我在政大當會員所的所長,那個時候政大會員所跟主機處,那時候還不叫主機總處,跟主機處合辦高級主機人員訓練班,所以那個時候就認得陳審計長,他那時候是主機人員。"},{"start":1745.568,"end":1747.429,"text":"這麼多年來的一個觀察,我在當監委的時候查過主計處的案子,處理這個案子的人就是當時的副主計長,現任的陳審計長。"},{"start":1766.493,"end":1768.314,"text":"我現在有被陳警長聘去審計部當業務研究委員會的委員然後常常有當評審的機會去審他們的一些案子或者是委外的研究計畫然後最近也要去他們的訓練委員會開課上課所以對審計部的運作是比較我覺得了解"},{"start":1793.792,"end":1800.136,"text":"而且因為我上課要去看這個Intel Science的東西所以像最後一頁剛剛這個旅委員提出來的這個叫做審計機關專業發展模型它裡面有"},{"start":1809.902,"end":1813.823,"text":"over-sight 監督,有insight 要去看清楚這個洞察本來是在上面看,insight 就在裡面看在上面看的時候,就會看得比較不內行"},{"start":1828.488,"end":1842.88,"text":"在裡面看inside的時候就會看得比較清楚那foreside是第三個最下面的這個它是說我在看的時候不只是看過去的我也去思考未來所以一個是這個"},{"start":1845.342,"end":1864.729,"text":"地域的觀念一個是時間的觀念然後這一張圖呢其實是在講審計的成熟度越成熟的審計就越往後走會往後面的foresight這邊去走那我就從這個理論跟這個實際上的審計部的做法來跟各位來報告"},{"start":1872.116,"end":1892.163,"text":"那在我們的資料裡頭就說我們審計部是幹嘛呢他的角色是審核政府的財政收支考核公共資源的配置跟運用的情形目的是要提升民眾對政府施政的信心在這邊的政府是受察者審計部他不在行政院"},{"start":1899.724,"end":1906.308,"text":"他在監察院他是個監督機關所以審計部對監督機關做的事情叫做監督英文可能叫做audit我們把它翻成審計可是它原本的意思是監督在談監督的時候我們女委員就很強調說誰在監督這個監督者是誰他的性別怎樣年齡怎樣年齡這邊從"},{"start":1928.208,"end":1945.98,"text":"理委員提供的資料的年齡這邊看到如果這個人夠老的話六十歲以上男生多於女生年紀輕的話那就女生多於男生為什麼呢因為審計人員很多都是從會計系畢業的統計很少大半都會計然後有工程然後在會計系畢業的女生就讀會計系的女生比男生多很多"},{"start":1958.308,"end":1984.469,"text":"那就會有很自然就會有這種男女的現象出現然後我們在談審計的時候就會談到說這個人他要去查哪些案立案是非常重要的如果查錯了案花的力氣再多都沒用都是白花力氣然後立案以後再去查然後查完以後要把報告提出來"},{"start":1986.31,"end":1989.671,"text":"所以在這個現任審計長他提供的資料裡頭就分別去針對如何立案如何去執行查核如何做報告去做了一些闡述我覺得闡述的是挺好的在如何立案的時候他有提到說"},{"start":2007.921,"end":2010.604,"text":"新成立了這個關鍵審計議題委員會去辨認關鍵議題我不在那個委員會裡頭我可以說他們做得很好這個沒有在拍人家馬屁的意思然後再去"},{"start":2024.781,"end":2034.918,"text":"做這個查核的時候陳機長的資料裡頭說我們導入新興的工具新興的工具有哪些呢主要是AI用AI加上大數據"},{"start":2039.042,"end":2059.586,"text":"然後去開發一些數位審計的模組這是如何去執行查核然後他也提到說我們辦理聯合審計共同性審計我們會跨域查核然後就涉及中央跟地方區域治理跟地方的事情去做這個聯合審計我覺得這個都是比以前好的地方然後在審計長的資料裡頭還提到有些機關它"},{"start":2069.941,"end":2078.645,"text":"他的答覆是不負責任的或者答覆不當在資料裡面告訴我們說從109年到114年7月這種案子有643案"},{"start":2085.387,"end":2087.55,"text":"643 案就在講的是這些被監督的機關他們沒有盡到他們執行的責任審計部是監督者去監督執行者這兩個責任是完全要把它劃分開來的"},{"start":2102.509,"end":2105.072,"text":"至於在提出審計報告的這個部分資料裡頭有說我們是讓資訊可以被看得懂有提出說我們的審計報告改變了現在是分測編制"},{"start":2118.627,"end":2139.526,"text":"現在提供電子檔現在增加一個專章叫做重要施政議題的查核這些我從理論上來看這邊都是把審計的功能有提升的一些做法但是沒有一個人是沒有缺點的我也有缺點在這邊的資料裡頭"},{"start":2142.853,"end":2151.058,"text":"譬如說神器機關就說我們現在要跟行政部門的關係是一個合作夥伴的關係"},{"start":2152.987,"end":2173.946,"text":"那如果監督者跟這個被監督者兩的關係是合作夥伴真正是合作夥伴的話那這個時候監督者就很難發揮監督的功能所以在資料裡頭我覺得運氣很好看到的執行的方法並不是真的監督夥伴並不是真的合夥的那種合作夥伴"},{"start":2178.41,"end":2185.216,"text":"那麼他會提出一些好的行政機關的案例用審計部的角色把它揭露出來讓別人知道說這是做得好的做得好的是我監督者說被監督者做得好我這個監督者在說被監督者做得好的同時我也說被監督者沒有做得好的"},{"start":2204.033,"end":2206.336,"text":"有很多,裡面就一堆的審核意見這些。然後另外,他說我跟誰合作呢?他就合作的部門有廉政署,有主計人員,有政風人員,政風人員在廉政署裡頭。"},{"start":2224.092,"end":2239.888,"text":"這個合作的夥伴他的角色也是行政單位裡面的監督者所以在這種情況下去說我要合作我審計部跟別的監督單位合作這個就沒有問題但"},{"start":2243.271,"end":2246.494,"text":"就是直接講說我今天跟人家去我跟我的受查的單位是合作夥伴然後如果再說我與人為善這樣的話就會是一個錯誤的訊息再把它拿出來"},{"start":2261.4,"end":2266.767,"text":"我是前幾天今天十九號十五號的時候剛好在廉政署參加廉政經質獎的決選會議然後審計部不是那天在廉政署"},{"start":2279.11,"end":2304.987,"text":"原政署的署長就很驕傲的說他們要跟審計部合作來辦理一個平台我是從外面聽到別人對審計部的肯定所以我來這邊轉述一下那以上發言 謝謝好 謝謝馬秀儒教授寶貴的意見 謝謝您接下來我們請黃耀輝教授請表達意見 好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":2308.129,"end":2325.306,"text":"主席還有與會的先進大家早安很榮幸受邀參加省紀長提名的公聽會接下來我就用簡報跟各位分享我個人的意見首先看到這個"},{"start":2327.492,"end":2344.25,"text":"这个贝廷明人他公务生涯长达47年一直都在从大学毕业之后就一直在会计主计审计领域工作学经历都很完备基本上我认为他是符合审计部组织法所定定的资格那"},{"start":2346.319,"end":2361.489,"text":"审计长在他过去六年的期间他也提出了六大点的具体优异事迹我个人详细审阅之后我发现他具体的部分只有第六大点也就是108案年起"},{"start":2376.099,"end":2392.795,"text":"分析所以这个是他我可以肯定这个是他具体的忧郁事迹但是其他五点我认为不够具体大多是文字的叙述很少有数据佐证比如说第一大点他说落实监督强化洞察"},{"start":2393.656,"end":2401.862,"text":"邁向前瞻語言不詳只有在他的第三小點提到說我們的資訊審核分析系統在109年到113年節省或"},{"start":2407.692,"end":2433.319,"text":"節省了浪費性的支出大概合計大概五年下來只有9.6億元相對於五年的稅收規模十幾兆只省下9.6億元所以這個績效其實不是很顯著第二點五大顧面有500項業務革新措施可是我們沒看到它績效反映在哪裡沒有數字的說明第三點第三大點他講這個創新"},{"start":2436.152,"end":2447.325,"text":"就提出創新建議的意見有給員工創新的獎勵沒有看到他反映在譬如說查核在審核"},{"start":2448.382,"end":2477.183,"text":"行政院這個預算執行的決算這個績效在哪裡沒有數字第四大點提到數位審計技術呢讓他增加那個查核案例增加到1813那請問那個到底他節省了多少的支出查了多少的B端也沒有看到任何的數據了第五大點提到審計部組織修法呢那也沒說明說節省了多少減費提升多少效能所以接下來呢我"},{"start":2478.064,"end":2486.728,"text":"我從審計部、審計長基於獨立、廉政、專業、創新這個核心價值來提問,因為很可惜,我們這個學者發表意見,沒辦法跟被提名人面對面請教他。"},{"start":2501.334,"end":2522.612,"text":"他的想法是什么所以我们只能够透过立委们比如在下午的时候欢迎直接引用我以下的简报的资料如果可以的话直接对被提名的以下几点问题请教他的客观意见第一个就是在去年我们这个"},{"start":2528.22,"end":2554.147,"text":"这个预算案在立法院跟行政院发生了很多的争议我个人认为有好多法定义务之处我们的行政院不编甚至已经立法院通过变成法定预算还用粗暴的方式把它删减我个人认为它是违宪违法第一点就是就是这个"},{"start":2554.947,"end":2556.688,"text":"原民禁法補償條例去年6月在綠委提案獲得立院通過之後調高了補償金額結果原民會"},{"start":2568.308,"end":2587.18,"text":"竟然没有在一百一十四年度总预算里面呢把这个法定义务支出呢列组编组预算这个很明显的就是违反预算法然后呢第二个就是行政院在五月份的突然突袭式的删减了一般性补助款六百三十六亿这个一般性补助款呢"},{"start":2588.081,"end":2601.561,"text":"照大法官釋憲391號跟520解釋這是錯失性法律即使行政院你提起復議失敗之後你就應該付諸執行它就是所謂的法定預算可是我們的主計總書"},{"start":2603.444,"end":2618.38,"text":"竟然在总预算里面呢他也指出了说一般性补助款呢是法定义务支出而法定义务支出就是什么呢依照相关法律明确的规定必须编列的经费即使行政部门你认为"},{"start":2619.321,"end":2619.521,"text":"再看下一页"},{"start":2648.587,"end":2674.346,"text":"在追加预算这个部分在今年八月行政院提出了追加预算案原来就是针对刚才讲的禁法补偿的调高它没有编列预算于是立法院通融就让它追加二十三亿结果它却夹带了八百五十五亿的其他支出以至于追加预算的规模高达八百七十八亿"},{"start":2674.966,"end":2701.085,"text":"这个很难就是违反预算法79条之四的那个79条的那个四个追加预算的条件包括一法律增加业务或事业并没有第二点一法律增加新机关没有第三个新办事业因重大事故经费超过法律预算时没有第四点一有关法律因捕猎追加预算没有所以最后结果就是"},{"start":2701.525,"end":2719.511,"text":"利用原民進法補償追加預算夾帶了不當的支出然後客扣剛才講的三減一般補助款636億佔為己有然後變相增加我們行政院的稅出"},{"start":2721.472,"end":2748.093,"text":"再看下一页劳保的破产的问题已经迫在眸角我们看到政府都待于改革劳保前场债务按照劳动部为情的外面做的精算报告到去年底一次前场债务高达13.2兆每一年就增加一兆不改革的话每一年将来都会增加一点多兆的前场债务前场债务是"},{"start":2749.011,"end":2769.671,"text":"将来基金的余额不足以支付未来需付给予上千万的被保险人的法定义务支出的缺口也是组织总处定期公布的所谓的未来的或有给付的责任过去不改革然后就靠拨补3870"},{"start":2773.149,"end":2798.095,"text":"3870億才延後三年破產未來產業狀況顯然很不樂觀將來我認為沒有財源可以再繼續撥補了而且就算要撥補一年一千億的話13.2兆要132年才能夠彌平那精算報告也指出錢償債務代表勞保制度改革的迫切性需調高保費降低給付後延後退休等改革才能改善"},{"start":2799.855,"end":2813.845,"text":"主計總署的預算籌備原則也強調應該建構永續穩定的年金制度為目標檢討保險財務收支失衡原因謀求改進但是從來就沒有針對失衡原因謀求改進"},{"start":2815.64,"end":2838.386,"text":"省纪部决算审核报告里面在重要施政议题查核里面虽然提了但是从来就没看到对老保不改革造成将来可能会波及整个财政崩溃的大问题有任何的琢磨再看下一页就是检讨台电亏损跟能源政策审核"},{"start":2841.263,"end":2851.992,"text":"重大施政問題的那個查核報告雖然也有提出但是也沒有觸及問題的核心首先第一個就是離岸光電的國產化政策造成台電"},{"start":2854.584,"end":2883.013,"text":"購電成本每年20年的通貨成本增加了9100億光電成本高於國際然後造成台電成本增加官商勾結貪腐事件層出不窮非核家園棄用穩連結的核電增加髒貴的煤氣發電增加造成台判大增然後籌編預算籌編原則又強調說因融入淨零排放的概念一方面又增加排放一方面又說預算要"},{"start":2884.173,"end":2893.361,"text":"要觸及淨零排放的概念賴總統還說要花九千億來實現淨零你這個能源政策就是造成"},{"start":2894.42,"end":2921.662,"text":"没办法实现近年的一个原因所以重要施政议题查哈也没提到再下一个就是国防支出暴增明年的预算国防支出就已经高达将近一兆占GDP的3.3%我们赖总统还宣誓说2030年前的国防支出要弄到GDP的5%照明年的GDP来算的话大概就是我们税数的48%请问在这种情况下排挤社福教科经济发展事项"},{"start":2922.142,"end":2925.783,"text":"違反籌編原則錢從哪裡來的相關的規定從財政惡化的趨勢來看國防擴增讓我們的政府不能實現賴總統所強調的經濟優先、民生優先、青年優先、弱勢優先最後我是建議"},{"start":2938.548,"end":2953.004,"text":"就是审计长如果是审计报告一年一度在提出总结算的审核报告的时候才来我们立法院跟各位委员报告我觉得是有点不足所以建议最后一点就是"},{"start":2954.386,"end":2975.898,"text":"就是請審計長未來能夠經常向立院提出第三方的鑑定報告為什麼這樣說呢就是因為審計部的業務主要是查核預算的執行但是沒辦法溯及到預算籌編階段的一些缺失所以一年一次的決算審核報告"},{"start":2976.678,"end":2989.903,"text":"我们才看到重要施政议题的查核报告而且都是事后观点对立院来讲已经无济于事所以我建议将来我们立法院可以对审计部提出一个"},{"start":2990.799,"end":3016.534,"text":"我觉得是很必要的要求就是请省纪部针对立法院跟行政院如果有预决算上面的争议的时候请省纪部提出鉴定意见书省纪长到立院报告他独立廉政专业的意见谢谢好 谢谢谢谢黄耀辉教授宝贵的意见谢谢您接下来我们请黄志聪教授请发表意见谢谢"},{"start":3019.422,"end":3039.253,"text":"主席 在座各位委員 還有各位的先進 大家好今天我很榮幸能夠來參加這個公聽會有關於省計長人事同意權審查的公聽會基本上來講 我受邀的時候"},{"start":3040.646,"end":3062.758,"text":"并不论是这个陈瑞敏省级长我现在也完全没有见过面那关于这个人事同意权的案子的审查我只能根据这个司法性还有续任的优缺点还有过去他的这个政绩还有一些争议还有社会各界的意见那未来的我们国家整个未来的发展那我来做一个"},{"start":3063.628,"end":3081.213,"text":"簡單的一個說明就是根據我的想法那當然沈記長陳瑞敏目前的任期是即將到十月一號就屆滿那任期是六年所以呢接下來我們就總統已經提名陳沈記長續任"},{"start":3083.514,"end":3100.392,"text":"已經將指紋送到立法院等待立法院進行人事統一選的一個程序那麼審計在我們國家的發展當中是非常非常重要的它有很高的地位它是在憲法地位上面它是監察院下面的一個機關"},{"start":3103.075,"end":3130.473,"text":"也是监察权的一环他执行所谓的审计权他也具有相当的独立性做专业的审计还有避免行政干预当然他的角色是非常非常重要的他是国家财政的一个守门员他是监督财政收支运预算执行的一个重要的一个机构另外他也是国会和监察院的一个辅助机构提供决算审查的依据"},{"start":3133.275,"end":3158.818,"text":"廉政和效能的保障者然後揭露浪費和低效率那它有很多的功能包括決算審核的功能包括財務收支查核的功能包括效能審計的功能包括專案調查還有提供監督資訊的功能那當然審計長是不是要續任那他有"},{"start":3160.615,"end":3180.565,"text":"優點它也有一些爭議在優點方面如果我們從制度和法律來看的話允許續任的話它是允許續任的因為它是符合法律上的規範程序也是合法的它的續任它可以避免空窗也可以確保監督的不中斷"},{"start":3183.315,"end":3201.149,"text":"從專業和績效方面來看可以延續數位的審計和效能改革另外可以降低交接成本利於長期計劃從公共利益角度來看跨年度專案可以全程監督"},{"start":3202.33,"end":3213.928,"text":"那穩定領導提升社會的信心當然他有很多爭議那我再爬梳理一下他的爭議包括這個制度和獨立性的稍作到質疑"},{"start":3215.203,"end":3243.343,"text":"续任恐怕会影响到他的独立性当然外界也在质疑这个续任之后他是跟政府的这个过于密切那么另外从效能和责任的检验的方面来看的话他有一些部分争议的案件没有妥善的追踪报告在审计报告用词里面有时候太过的轻微不够"},{"start":3244.003,"end":3259.351,"text":"不夠專注不夠精確另外從制度透明度不足的方面來看的話續任提名應該要更公開的討論立法院應該要求完整的績效報告"},{"start":3260.672,"end":3276.617,"text":"那從替換的可能的優點來看的話那如果換了一個新的審計長的話可以帶來改革的效能或動能而且可以避免集中在同一個權力集中在一個人的手上那當然這個它正反面的這個"},{"start":3278.218,"end":3305.574,"text":"論點的對照我有繪成一個表有興趣的先進可以參考一下我也去爬梳一下現任省紀長任內的一些重要的事蹟當然一上任的時候他很強調獨立 廉政 專業還有創新他也針對加強對重大建設的監督特別是防疫的特別預算部分當然很多"},{"start":3306.656,"end":3315.117,"text":"委員不覺得他有非常大的監督力道在這個事情上面那他"},{"start":3316.352,"end":3343.368,"text":"對於數位和審計的推動不遺餘力導入資訊科技工具提升效能當然委員的一些提案一些揭露一些弊案的揭露他也去查查包括職場霸凌的專案包括安定救援基金是否挪用的問題他也都有去進行最後總統就是肯定所以就給他續任"},{"start":3345.612,"end":3366.522,"text":"當然我覺得我看了一下相關的資料發現我們在座很多的委員對於省紀長任內很多的爭議都是覺得他監督不足成效有限有時候還會有一些誤讀的一些情況還有另外就是"},{"start":3368.147,"end":3388.758,"text":"用此用具的不恰当但事实上它也有一些不错的作为包括推动数位审计导入大数据AI工具导入效能审计检验政策的成效另外它也追回了很多相关的经费"},{"start":3389.458,"end":3404.509,"text":"那他也針對這個特別預算的部分他也跨年度監督防疫前瞻等重大的專案但這些東西基本上不管怎麼做基本上委員們還是不是那麼的滿意都是覺得他的監督力道不足"},{"start":3405.526,"end":3415.295,"text":"那在2019年到2020年我也大概去了解了一下他大概追回的金額在2019年大概有14億2020年有12億2021年有10億2022年有15億2023年有11億2020年有9億雖然金額不是很多但是這也可以凸顯他在這個審計的過程當中他只要發現有所謂的資金"},{"start":3426.758,"end":3449.991,"text":"使用不符的情況基本上他就會做這樣的一個決定那當然如果我們從世界各國的這個審計的制度角度來看的話那美國的GLO大概就是這個審計展大概就是任期十年十五年那是非常久的那英國的話大概就十年所以"},{"start":3451.107,"end":3475.521,"text":"我們目前審計長是六年接下來如果在六年的話就是十二年基本上跟美國英國基本上是差不多可以維持一個比較長期穩定的審計的作為另外如果從專業和NGO的角度來看的話學者基本上是肯定數位審計的改革但是對於基金和特別預算的監督仍然不足"},{"start":3476.633,"end":3488.014,"text":"王耀輝黃老師說的大家有很多的意見在這個地方我相信這應該都是很多未來在野黨立法委員都可以用來作為質詢的一個方向"},{"start":3490.108,"end":3506.933,"text":"從業界來看的話特別是各個會計或相關領域的一些業界來看的話是建議引進第三方的審計師提升專業和客觀性這剛剛我想王老師還有黃老師也都提過從公民團體的角度來看他比較想要了解到底"},{"start":3507.509,"end":3531.586,"text":"这个审计报告是在写什么所以如果审计报告能够更平易近人的话就可以让大家更能够了解到底做了什么到底有哪些缺失有哪些问题我想基本上对于这个社会大众的了解很有帮助那我的结论是这样就是说在法律上没有禁止续任的条款除非立法院改修法修法这个审计部的组织法"},{"start":3532.126,"end":3557.644,"text":"否则基本上是他们有严禁续任条款所以续任从法理上是被允许的但是社会期待透明 独立 还有问责这是我想社会上最大的期待当然支持续任的一方重视所谓的专业延续反对方着重所谓的独立性和问责的问题"},{"start":3559.08,"end":3580.428,"text":"我們可以看一下過去前面兩屆的審計長林慶隆審計長擔任了12年蘇政平審計長擔任了18年基本上都是很長時間的擔任這個位置所以對我們國家過去的審計工作做了相當大的貢獻當然"},{"start":3584.175,"end":3608.154,"text":"这个审计业务的推动不是只有审计人员我相信所有的人民我们全体人民只要能够提出一些相关的证据或是一些案子的话我相信他们都会去严查我相信只有靠审计人员是不够的因为我们的人手不是那么的足特别是未来我们的统总分配税款在114年只有4676亿那115年有8000多亿"},{"start":3612.345,"end":3633.901,"text":"成长了89%这些东西基本上来讲我们的预算增加了我们未来政府的支出增加了我们审计部门在审计的过程中要配合更多的人力所以我认为就是说如果在重视专业延续的考量之下考量可以续任但是必须要建立这个续任的考核每年向立法院提交"},{"start":3634.541,"end":3657.228,"text":"审计成果第二个在专业和公共利益之间取得平衡比如设立第三方审计咨询机制第三个要维持审计部门的公信力避免政治化这是以上我的浅见谢谢好 谢谢黄志聪教授宝贵的意见谢谢您接下来我们请登记第五号也是最后一位发言的教授陈庆才教授请发言谢谢"},{"start":3659.232,"end":3682.98,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好很高興有這個機會來參加此次的公聽會因為是對省紀長被提名人同意權的公聽會所以我的意見會偏重說明對被提名人過去六年任期內有什麼施政績效有什麼樣的施政作為來提供大家參考"},{"start":3684.738,"end":3705.397,"text":"不论是公司治理或者是政府的治理,审计稽查都是内部管理控制非常重要的一环。公司的内部集合工作是由内部集合人员来执行,公司的外部审计工作就是由会计师来办理。"},{"start":3706.278,"end":3713.905,"text":"政府機關的內部審核工作是由主計人員來執行外部的審計工作則是由審計人員來辦理"},{"start":3716.66,"end":3742.278,"text":"審計積查的功能要能有效的發揮內部審核和外部審計必須能夠適度的互動互補而且兩者都必須具備獨立客觀和專業能力這兩個基本條件本人因為過去在政府的主席系統服務多年向來和審計機關的審計人員有所互動"},{"start":3745.82,"end":3774.814,"text":"在擔任第五屆監察委員的期間因為監察業務和審計工作的關聯性所以和審計人員的互動更是平緩目前在台灣大學管理學院會計學系講授會計審計法規這樣的課程為了講授法規的內容和相關的審計實務所以一直以來都非常關切審計部的審計工作推展的情形"},{"start":3777.038,"end":3798.321,"text":"審計法第69條有規定,審計人員的審計工作必須要做到以下的功能。審計機關考核各機關的績效,如果認為有未盡職責或者效能過低的這種情形,除了要通知該機關的上級機關長官以外,還要報告監察院。"},{"start":3799.318,"end":3808.324,"text":"如果是因為制度規章有缺失或者是設施不良就應該對機關提出建議改善意見"},{"start":3809.73,"end":3836.527,"text":"如果審計機關認為有可以提升效能或增進公共利益的地方就要對該機關或有關機關提出建議的意見審計機關如果發現有影響各機關施政效能營業效能或事業效能的潛在風險事項那麼可以對機關或者有關機關提出預警性的意見讓這個機關可以來討回因應"},{"start":3839.429,"end":3860.265,"text":"依照上述的規定政府的審計工作的重心已經從傳統的監督政府財務收支發展到促進政府提升市政效能更進而發展到提出前瞻性的預警意見來協助機關因應潛在風險也就是說從監督性的審計"},{"start":3867.925,"end":3874.452,"text":"發展到洞察性的審計再發展到前瞻性的審計被提名人"},{"start":3876.298,"end":3900.288,"text":"陳瑞敏先生在審計長六年任期內審計工作呢我查遍相關資料那麼有以下的成果那這些成果的說明或許可以回答剛剛先進所提到的一些問題第一在監督性的審計方面審計機關辦理各項財務收支的查核稽查各項為師行為總共節省"},{"start":3903.629,"end":3909.974,"text":"節省支出增加收入6年來有1193億元發現各機關聯員涉有財務上重大違私行為的案件有643案受處分的人高達2186人次"},{"start":3925.239,"end":3947.336,"text":"在洞察性的審計方面審計機關考核各機關的績效發現設有未盡職責或效能過低等案件總共有583案發現各機關制度規章有缺失或設施不良的情形提出建議改善意見總共1398項"},{"start":3951.98,"end":3960.845,"text":"審計機關認為各機關有可以提升效能或增進公共利益的情形,提出建議意見3892項。第三,在前瞻性的審計方面,審計機關對會影響各機關施政的潛在風險,"},{"start":3970.851,"end":3994.948,"text":"适时提出预警性的意见促使机关来妥为因应这样总共有903项所以以上审计工作6年的成果我个人认为可以合理的来判断审计部确实能够在具备独立客观和专业能力这两项条件之下顺利达成审计的职责"},{"start":3996.448,"end":4025.815,"text":"另外被提名人陳惠敏先生在省議長六年任期內以我的了解是有多項的創新做法可是因為今天時間的關係我在這裡僅僅提出我認為具代表性的三項第一件從110年度開始推動行政機關的優良案例可以推廣擴散這樣的制度行政機關在自己的領域範圍內從事工作"},{"start":4027.25,"end":4042.826,"text":"不容易得知其他機關或者其他政府有什麼新的或者有效的施政作為那審計機關因為它查核中央政府還有地方政府的所有的機關所以如果在審計內員執行審計工作的時候"},{"start":4045.424,"end":4061.964,"text":"有看到某個政府的某個機關他們正在推行創新又有成果的施政作為就可以透過審計機關的平台引介給其他機關來參考所以審計部就推動了這麼一個擴散的制度"},{"start":4063.125,"end":4081.345,"text":"由各審計單位發掘各行政機關具有顯著成果的施政作為推廣到其他的行政機關來參考運用審計單元又可以具以這樣一個推廣來督促各機關有沒有提升它的施政效能這樣的作為總共有107案"},{"start":4083.703,"end":4107.739,"text":"第二 在112年 省基部成立了《關鍵省基議題發展委員會》推動關鍵省基議題發展的機制什麼是關鍵省基議題呢關鍵省基議題是跨機關 跨領域 受社會高度關注對國家的發展具有聲援影響的議題"},{"start":4109.62,"end":4130.457,"text":"譬如说打击诈欺、毒品防治、空气污染、改善所得分配等等重大的议题。那么这些议题经过审计部审计的结果,他把它归纳、整理、纳入中央政府总结算审核报告以专章来表达。"},{"start":4131.684,"end":4151.895,"text":"那這樣的關鍵審計議題因為專長表達它的內容跟審核結果就契合各界關注的焦點而且很容易完整的閱讀並且了解那這樣一個做法相當受到媒體及社會大眾的關注及肯定這個機制也進一步發揮了審計機關協助政府發現問題解決問題"},{"start":4158.365,"end":4173.395,"text":"促進國家長期發展的功能第三 審計部建立了數位審計制度剛有幾位先進都有提到來提升審核效率及效果政府的審計能力原本就不充分"},{"start":4174.275,"end":4195.63,"text":"近年來,因為政府責能擴張,審計的工作量也隨之增加。再加上,審計工作範圍擴大,就像剛剛所講的,從監督性的審計發展到洞察性的審計,再發展到前瞻性的審計,那這個工作量就增加很多,那麼就更顯得審計人力更不足。"},{"start":4196.791,"end":4216.592,"text":"因為人力不足,就必須善用科技來協助並提升審計工作。審計部在111年增設第六廳,成立了數位審計發展委員會,推展創新數位審計。這個做法不但有效節省審計人力,簡化總決算審核報告的編報作業,"},{"start":4218.033,"end":4235.848,"text":"透过科技的应用更是有效的提升了审计技术跟品质所以中上所述本人认为被提名的陈瑞敏先生是适合担任审计长一职以上谢谢大家好谢谢陈建才教授宝贵的发言"},{"start":4236.989,"end":4248.819,"text":"我們各黨團推薦的學者專家均已經發言完畢現在我們進行審查小組委員的詢問首先我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言賴思寶委員請準備"},{"start":4253.155,"end":4272.434,"text":"謝謝主席在場的先進媒體記者女士先生會長工作夥伴接下來就這次對省記長進行同意權的公聽會我這裡提出的是專長及人力調配應對新版才化法以及調整審核評鑑模式來落實激勵課則"},{"start":4275.711,"end":4301.063,"text":"大凡在威權統治的社會學者 學子都被要求要背誦國家領導人的重要言語比如說就我們這個世代在場多數我們都曾經聽過兩位蔣總統所留下來的一些言詞比如說蔣經國先生在晚年提到了時代在變環境在變潮流也在變以此"},{"start":4301.621,"end":4329.543,"text":"作为国民党在中华民国推动民主化的一个依据但是当拒绝改革的时候也有人会说但有所变有所不变今天我们就与沈记长的审查其实是就原任的人进行续任的审查这个公听会其实人选不变那么对不起这个因为我刚刚在讲OK好那么这人选不变"},{"start":4330.508,"end":4331.995,"text":"過去他這些年的表現"},{"start":4332.938,"end":4360.163,"text":"其实已经制定有评价并不是对新任人选进行通行审查有些推论所以人不变那什么在变呢好我们来看一下审计权有没有变审计的职权诚如刚刚几位学者所说有财务审计有绩效审计财务审计就合法性进行审计绩效审计有一些绩效性的审计还有财务为师的审查当然对于未竞职责者要报告上级机关还有监察院"},{"start":4360.763,"end":4389.622,"text":"制度缺失者要提出改善建议有可以增进公益者要提出建议意见甚至刚刚也有提到了对于潜在风险的事项比如说劳保的潜在负债要提出预警性的意见这都是审计权应该含有的项目接下来我们看审计单位的职能外部监督政府财务所以除了机关所长一条鞭尸的领导之外审计机关也放入了这样的一个机构来进行但是我们要强调的这是一种事后监督各政府机关"},{"start":4390.282,"end":4406.78,"text":"就像監察權跟立法權的最大的一個很大的差別監察權是事後權但是如果當事人有不法或違私的責任的時候呢譬如說財務上的違私要送上級那麼要負起刑責或是懲戒的處分那麼如果執行效能不彰可以提出審計報告機關要回覆"},{"start":4409.082,"end":4436.741,"text":"而当事人要负政治责任好了这里面又出现一个问题审计法有没有要求刚刚学者所提出的要提出的鉴定报告有没有能力在行政权和立法权发生争执的时候进行第三方客观的一些建议很抱歉目前宪政的体制当中并不是由监察权来扮演这个角色是由司法权如果我们宪法规定的由宪法法庭依据宪诉法来进行"},{"start":4437.915,"end":4464.863,"text":"立法權跟行政權是否是合憲性的審查如果還跳出了一個監察權的審計長可以就兩院的爭執或是行政權的重大政策予以張皮那不只要修法可能還要修憲因此對於審計法目前在沒有變的情況之下我們來看一看那是什麼變了人選不變法制不變那麼什麼變了"},{"start":4466.089,"end":4484.669,"text":"在于我们看到的有人说财政是数证之母财政是所有行政最重要的一个核心所以什么变了呢攸关财政的财政收支划分法变了这个变迁我们来回顾一下当中我们看到财政收支划分法顾名思义它有三个块面"},{"start":4485.782,"end":4514.758,"text":"第一個就是統籌分配款這當中有垂直的分配跟水平的分配垂直分配當中針對要分配的所得稅營業稅和貨物稅進行跟中央跟地方的百分比的分配但是更重要的就是水平的分配分配到地方的統籌分配稅款根據什麼方式來分配個縣市呢基本上會根據它的財政貢獻度營利事業越多的統籌分配稅就越多可以說在這個制度之下是負者橫負"},{"start":4515.858,"end":4541.829,"text":"平者易平因此统筹分配税款的分配它还有个背后的因素待会会讲就是除了税款中央跟地方的水平垂直分配之外适权是否跟着财政一定移转这是我们要关切的统筹分配税款不只关心到水平的分配社会上的公示是否允当也是要垂直的分配是否能够将宪法当中所规定的中央跟地方分权"},{"start":4542.529,"end":4569.236,"text":"依據這些財政的收入來予以分配那我們來看一下一般性補助款一般性補助款基本上有教育補助社會福利補助基本設施補助其他基本支出還有平衡預算補助這當中對於經常性普及性基本建設及維運性質的還有很重要的財政均衡其實因為對於財政容忽不同的縣市當涉算你的基本財政需求之後我們中央政府會對於"},{"start":4570.496,"end":4592.226,"text":"比例予以做區隔意思是說理解到各地方這種的承擔能力跟他的基本需求之後在這個負擔比例上予以調整老實說一般性補助能動的也很少那什麼才是最重要的財政目標呢有人說受人以魚不能受人以魚前者的魚是魚後者的魚是釣竿所以在"},{"start":4592.816,"end":4618.842,"text":"我們看到一個半的社會現象如果所得高的他其實不需要協助收入低的在基本需求相同的情況下他需要額外的協助協助他什麼呢協助他進行自我的投資比如說有人在說社會流動會因為教育學歷的提高那麼他未來的社會收入會提高把這個道理回來看一下那到底在我們新版財劃法當中或者原版的財劃法當中誰扮演這個角色就是計劃型補助款"},{"start":4619.582,"end":4636.626,"text":"所謂的統籌分配款在水平分配根據財政貢獻度來分配平者易平負者橫負在一般性補助款來講大家的需求大致是各有各自的需求中央市地方的需求跟承擔能力與調整真正能夠達到改善城鄉分差距"},{"start":4637.686,"end":4665.518,"text":"調節我們國家支出的就是屬於計劃型的補助他鼓勵各地方政府主動提案來提高對未來的貢獻度當這樣的計劃型補助發生效果的時候各地方政府他在未來的財政貢獻度就開始有所改變會讓原來收入低的有可能因為這樣的收入提高之後減少對中央的仰仗但是我們看到這次財務法法他最大最大被討論的是這些課題嗎很抱歉不是他被討論到的是什麼"},{"start":4666.61,"end":4694.97,"text":"對不起怎麼不會動了呢OK好就是什麼就是引起爭議的財政收支劃分法第16條之一在議長的版本當中錯誤的將本島的19個縣市跟離島的3個縣市分別都以全國的22個縣市做分母結果造成了在本島的16個19個縣市有0.2的款項無法分配結果呢在離島的部分有99.8%無法分配這樣的一個低級荒唐居然出現在"},{"start":4697.201,"end":4719.536,"text":"蔑視我們立法過程的程序性正義而發生了這樣的一個低級錯誤卻成為這次財化法這整個重點我們來看一下回歸到審計權當財化法被這樣的一個進行破壞肢解之後我們看到了原來原來本來地方政府執行的成效也是審計的對象"},{"start":4720.757,"end":4736.773,"text":"但是我們看到的在審計報告當中說到了有關於地方政府在計劃實施成效執行率偏低的情況還有管理作業欠當的情況之下在野黨卻一味的挾著國會的多數強行碾壓提高地方政府的財政"},{"start":4738.393,"end":4760.71,"text":"反而中央因輕應辦的事務沒有足夠的裁員來支撐請問下這樣的私人權分配有符合裁劃法它本質上的精神嗎又考慮到地方政府的執行量能還有在未來我們的審計人力的分佈各地方的審計室是否有足夠的人力來救地方政府額外增加的這些裁員去執行同樣的事務"},{"start":4762.062,"end":4787.621,"text":"而进行审计呢我要强调一次在市权没有重新调配的情况之下地方政府额外征收的财政收入他只在执行同样的正式同样规模的正式支出这种情况之下审计就面临到一个很庞大的挑战那另外我们也看到了在113年度中央政府的总决算审核报告当中他提到要去以检讨评鉴模式提高鉴别度啊"},{"start":4788.632,"end":4816.853,"text":"我们的审计不是只有针对中央政府针对地方政府在未来庞大的财政收入相同的正式支出他怎么样去检讨建立这样的模式设定标准而且用同样的方法更重要的中央依考核结果增减地方性一般性补助管的分配其实过去历来都未达增减未达1%表示过去中央政府在既有的财政收支发展上下对地方的激励跟克折的效果是有限的"},{"start":4817.509,"end":4847.169,"text":"所以最后我们要主张要审计要审查的不是审计长个人过去的表现审计部的整体表现我们主张审计部应该针对地方政府调配审计人员及补足具专业能力的审计人员应应对新版的财政收支方法执行审计业务审计部也应该确实督导调整审核和平建模式标准及方法以提升鉴别度并落实激励及克制的效果"},{"start":4847.669,"end":4862.739,"text":"總而言之今天我們要審計的不是一個審計長個人的一個是否升任他要審查整個審計制度在財化法遭到破壞之下未來的挑戰以上好謝謝鍾嘉賓委員寶貴的發言接下來我們請賴思寶委員發言黃珊珊委員請準備謝謝主席韓院長那麼以及各位先進那我們今天是對於這個陳審計長他的一個續任我們要不要給他同意"},{"start":4878.106,"end":4904.36,"text":"那這段時間我聽到一些聲音本黨黨團的委員大概都是比較正面的態度看這個事情主要的原因就是因為我們在每一次請他來特別是財委會質詢的時候他基本上大概立委有要求的他都會照實的回答而且提供很多的資料"},{"start":4906.441,"end":4935.2,"text":"這個是他正面的這一部分那現在呢我剛看到前面幾個專家學者談到的也就是我心裡的一個看法就是我們的沈記長其實我常常認為沈記長是手拿大刀要砍啊這個大刀砍了好不好啊就看沈記長的表現那過去呢這可以比較林慶榮跟現在的陳瑞銘比如說以在人員政策這一部分"},{"start":4936.633,"end":4960.983,"text":"林青龍就講了怎麼樣他語氣很平淡可是態度很堅決他敢一針見血的說你這個行政部門什麼問題比如說他就這樣講他說人員轉型矛盾這個話就講得一針見血2018例如2018年天然氣接收站跟再生能源進度的問題"},{"start":4962.364,"end":4979.53,"text":"他個人定調可是用詞潛質堅定有力看我們陳瑞民省紀長現任的省紀長他的用詞是什麼他公開答詢的時候語調溫和強調查核發現在講話所以很明顯地看這兩個省紀長調調個性不一樣"},{"start":4988.653,"end":5008.224,"text":"就原來的林青龍是什麼問題我單刀直入竊進去你有這個問題我們的陳審計長就揭露有人說他什麼你看表面上他都回答要查這個要查那個但是實質上到最後這個輕輕放下"},{"start":5008.837,"end":5032.815,"text":"我的感覺是這樣子就整體的這樣子這幾年來就是他高高的舉起是我們立委要求他舉起所以第一個我要批評他的是他的主動性是不夠的比如說我們最近剛才中委員提到的這個地方財政數字化文化的問題這個財化法各位財化法修了快20年有人講有人批評"},{"start":5034.737,"end":5056.132,"text":"有人批評說這個萬年總招我們叫萬年才化法修了20年修不過好不容易在去年上一屆的時候把它修過了修過了後來現在行政院抓了一個尾巴說這個離島的部分你沒有處理好"},{"start":5057.301,"end":5085.74,"text":"這個就修16條之一按照我們跟韓院長這樣配合的默契還記得把特別預算我都記得很清楚啊禮拜四早上巡打75個人登記到每一個委員的提案200多個提案我處理完我是召委處理完我就交給我們的韓院長連夜的協商到半夜清晨一點多我非常佩服韓院長的這個體力跟毅力"},{"start":5087.15,"end":5115.679,"text":"第二天刪除了我們速度可以這麼快所以這個小吃16之1要修的話我認為一個禮拜就可以搞定按照馬上就給他進負荷毒查尾協商一下子就可以進去的但是行政院不是這樣子抓住這個無限的放大說這個採化法有問題要重新來那我請問請問那行政院有沒有版本"},{"start":5116.806,"end":5128.151,"text":"到現在為止行政院完全沒有版本行政院在混行政院在混才畫法因為剛才有委員提出來我就特別來講一下"},{"start":5129.096,"end":5155.285,"text":"那大家都知道大家不要見數不見零啊中央政府給地方政府的三個錢第一個錢統籌分配稅款第二個錢一般補助款第三個錢計畫型補助款以台北市為例他們都說喔台北市拿最多拿450億啊統籌分配稅款對不起一般補助款他扣了100億回去了"},{"start":5156.734,"end":5180.239,"text":"計畫性補助款扣了300多億回去了所以統統等於幾乎原地踏不踏這個就是現況這時候審計長要介入啊審計部要介入啊你就發現到我們的審計長對於爭議的題目不敢碰不敢碰他除了什麼立委質詢的時候提出來有沒有 有我這個人講話都很公道的"},{"start":5181.508,"end":5190.959,"text":"我都按照數字來講話比如說雞蛋 超市雞蛋神經病 有啊那是什麼 對不起那是立法院排床報告"},{"start":5192.168,"end":5218.276,"text":"立委要求他就調查了 立委給我做的我只好做啊 就變成這個樣子所以主動性非常不夠他有提到了 你看這個審計部辭 農委會112年3月開放雞蛋進口專案造成損失費用超過5億超過5億 這個他具體的陳述 他做到了"},{"start":5218.936,"end":5233.211,"text":"可是我覺得那時候已經吵得沸沸揚揚如果沒有排中央報告我不知道審計報告在哪裡我不知道審計報告在哪裡所以這時候我就說他一上台我就告訴他你是拿一支大刀結果這個大刀什麼時候要回"},{"start":5236.647,"end":5261.804,"text":"他發現要有人告訴他 他才敢揮啊沒有人告訴他不敢揮啊這個沈繼昌做的 我就覺得力道就稍微那個氣勢力道就稍微差了一點這是第一個 我要提的極端的部分第二個 對於政策 他敢不敢去沈繼昌我的看法 我在這裡這麼久沈繼昌完全不敢"},{"start":5263.067,"end":5286.073,"text":"幾乎不敢比如說這兩天我們的發電我們的備轉容量剩下3.8%橘色很可怕可能很快變成紅燈橘燈變紅燈變黑燈就確定了審計部要不要介入這時候要不要介入什麼問題"},{"start":5288.14,"end":5309.637,"text":"現在可以用的都用了 新達電廠用了 林口電廠用了 頭農用了 電不夠我沒有看到審計部對這個事情有什麼看法因為現在立法院修會 沒有立法院的壓力 他就沒有動"},{"start":5310.66,"end":5333.131,"text":"我覺得比較一樣的在這裡當然立法院壓力給他 我要承認講我們只要告訴他要做這個 要做那個 他會做而且做了這個效果 這個數字也都呈現所以我給他的是 我是很客觀的講在人員領域的表現他叫誠實中立 揭露不足他很誠實 很中立"},{"start":5338.069,"end":5365.365,"text":"那升級長要中立嘛 可是揭露不出比如講 我再講一個具體的 河市河市 我都記得很清楚啊有一次我要專門 我個人喔這個開車道 也不是說我開車啦 反正有人給我開開到去找河市 我們要參觀河市場"},{"start":5367.455,"end":5390.622,"text":"結果找不到牌子他連牌子都拆掉了我找不到地方進去裡面區好大 找不到牌子進去後來才發現有個小小的牌子何時才能夠進去看這樣的一個場我們的馬秀魯教授我很尊敬的我們政大的同事馬教授這麼專業當過監委都很清楚"},{"start":5396.021,"end":5403.046,"text":"這個會計準則 你都合適報廢掉了將近3000億的資產 為什麼要掛在資產當然你應該掛負債啊你要掛負債的話 你資產幾乎等於零了剩下就是一些你當作破的爛鐵去賣可能剩100億吧 剩150億吧但是你要掛將近3000億 2800多億的資產"},{"start":5422.595,"end":5448.792,"text":"這個老實講這個能夠通過我們會計準則嘛像這個道道地地省計長的責任但是呢他還沒有講他就是模模糊糊他的話是這樣子我唸給大家聽查核 核四停建後龐大資產未減損督促經濟部處置這說這聽不懂啊我查到了你們自己去處理啊所以啊"},{"start":5450.592,"end":5475.978,"text":"這個我們的審計上第一個主動性不夠第二個務虛大於務實因為實際上的東西我覺得不是太夠那麼當然了這個我最後的投票要投yes或者no下午的質詢我再來決定謝謝好 謝謝賴時保委員寶貴的發言接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言陳培宇委員請準備"},{"start":5479.128,"end":5507.129,"text":"谢谢院长还有各位学者专家我想今天非常重要的是针对沈记长的人选的审查那我想台湾民众党我们的立场非常的清楚当然就是希望以非常理性跟务实的角度来审查这位沈记长的资格那诚如刚刚所很多教授所说的其实他的资格上面应该是没有太大的问题那现在就是说中间的我们对于沈记长的期许还有他应该保持的"},{"start":5507.677,"end":5537.299,"text":"独立性以及他对国家的这些责任那是不是在我们的标准里面能不能够希望未来的人事同意权通过与否都应该要有一些相关的主张那首先审计法本身审计部的最重要的职权是要审核收支跟决算那稽查财务跟财政上的不法或不忠于职务的行为那针对考核财务效能还要核定财务的责任也就是说"},{"start":5537.958,"end":5554.037,"text":"省纪部除了独立专业它还需要更主动积极的去考核行政单位的财务效能还有核定它的财务责任但是过去几年的省纪部的执行职权的行使上面"},{"start":5554.998,"end":5569.978,"text":"每一年都會透過所謂的總決算的審核報告還有專案報告來提供相關的意見那當然行政機關在很多的報告裡面有非常多的缺失然後他們也有提出相關的市政上的建議跟改進方針"},{"start":5570.979,"end":5597.358,"text":"立法院作為監督機關我們大部分很多的資料也都來自於所謂監察院的審計報告成為立法委員質詢的內容這大概是中華民國特有的一個機制也就是因為我們五權憲法的關係把監察權跟調查權都分出去給了監察院所以其實本來應該隸屬於立法院的相關職權被切割出監察院甚至到審計部"},{"start":5598.459,"end":5619.793,"text":"所以就形成了預算由立法院審但是決算由審計部審審完之後再向立法院報告的這個比較全世界獨有的一個機制所以就會造成審計部的獨立性跟專業性尤其他又要經過總統提名以及立法院同意所以在任期保障上面希望他能夠維持原來的獨立性"},{"start":5620.273,"end":5644.091,"text":"但陳如剛有些專家所說的也擔心說因為總統提名續任那推他對行政機關的這些立場那是不是可能會受到執政黨的影響這個也是我們在這次審計長人選上面需要去考慮的最重要的原因那陳審計長在他任期期間當然也提出了許多的審計報告就有"},{"start":5645.533,"end":5668.051,"text":"內容也有找到問題但是大部分就像剛剛賴世寶委員說的大部分都是外面已經風風雨雨之後審計部才突然驚覺到或發現到當然這過程中在這幾年尤其在我們這一屆新國會的時候已經發生了幾個案子首先第一個是勞動部有關謝玉榮許明春的爭議"},{"start":5669.233,"end":5683.471,"text":"這個Joy Andy基金是外界風風雨雨吵鬧不休之後在立法院審計長回答說他認為說將近有五千萬不合規定那現在到這幾天已經經過法院的判決Joy Andy基金的支出"},{"start":5684.392,"end":5707.387,"text":"用途不符相關的規範謝偉榮也被判了四年六個月不過如果審計部在相關查核上面如果在之前可以更積極或者是了解得更深入的話可能就不至於有這樣的狀況發生第二個是美軍的軍火商福報的軍購售價高達五十四億這在這個過程裡面"},{"start":5708.86,"end":5725.269,"text":"从立法者的角度我们只能说匪夷所思所以审计部的相关的过程里面在查核对美军购的部分他们有发现这样的状况这是一件好事但是怎么可以发生这是我们觉得很匪夷所思54亿的金额"},{"start":5726.209,"end":5750.908,"text":"第三個部分是省紀部長期對於魚電共生都有相關的糾正報告而且講得很清楚省紀部清楚的說有七成所謂的魚電共生只有電沒有魚但是我們的漁業署一樣可以在裡面完全找一大堆理由跟藉口不過一個颱風就發現我們的魚電共生真的只有"},{"start":5752.408,"end":5768.04,"text":"電沒有魚而且可能連電現在也都沒有了第四個部分是審計部的報告裡面指有關超市雞蛋進口的採購瑕疵這個事情也是外面風風雨雨之後突然間發現了續產會僅憑農業部的一個LINE的訊息"},{"start":5771.943,"end":5787.317,"text":"就辦理相關的撥款作業而且產生了採購上面嚴重的程序問題可是這個案子也是一直送到地檢署才發現有這麼嚴重的狀況超市雞蛋續產會被詐領了將近六千多萬元"},{"start":5787.757,"end":5812.286,"text":"也就是說這些東西都應該是在我們審計的過程裡面就應該完整的去看它的憑證、它的程序那我們是不是都要等到外界來質疑之後我們審計部才後知後覺這才是我們今天大家這個國家既然有這麼完整的審計制度為什麼還一直有這麼多的弊案發生第五個部分是審計部長年以來都說"},{"start":5813.755,"end":5831.233,"text":"特别预算举债支印导致政府的债务已经到120年底已经累积到将近5兆6千亿每一年审计部都说不应该全数已用税金剩余支印的政府支出这件事情但是每一年行政院都在做一样的事"},{"start":5831.894,"end":5848.833,"text":"也就是說我們現在的很多的審計部提出的報告但是行政機關依然顧我的情況非常的嚴重那另外就是審計部從我們給相關的調查權跟審計權其實它有非常多的工具但是從110年104年以後"},{"start":5854.777,"end":5868.253,"text":"監察院在審計法裡面其實21條規定得很清楚審計機關或審計人員對於各機關違背預算或有關法令的不當支出可以事前拒簽或事後剔除要追繳"},{"start":5869.994,"end":5890.148,"text":"審計法21條給審計部有這麼大的權力但是從101年以前從民國79年到101年中央政府總預算的查核報告裡面都有被剔除的狀況但是104年以後中央政府總決算就再也沒有剔除的數字了也就是說"},{"start":5891.308,"end":5920.574,"text":"不知道是審計部自廢武功還是自我閹割忘記了自己有這麼大的一把刀審計法21條給他這麼大的權利可以去剔除他認為不合法或不當的支出到今天為止這將近20年來審計長審計部已經不再使用這個法條所以我們認為說剛剛講了這麼多的弊案如果按照相關審計法的話其實審計部是有這個責任去再"},{"start":5921.463,"end":5943.352,"text":"決算的時候把它剔除甚至要求相關機關追繳另外審計法74條經審計機關決定剔除跟繳回的款項如果沒有能夠追償的話他還要查明相關機關的長官或他相關的主辦人員會計人員必須要追到所謂的鏈"},{"start":5944.008,"end":5959.059,"text":"连带负损害赔偿责任但是这一条目前为止几乎没有机关被追缴所以我们的行政机关才会一直的违法乱纪所以审计部跟审计长"},{"start":5960.479,"end":5987.028,"text":"當審計長來拜會我們的時候我給他的第一句話就是審計部應該要吃誠實豆沙包你知道哪裡不對就應該大聲的說你知道哪裡有錯就應該不但是事前然後事後的剔除跟追繳這兩個權利都在審計法裡面只是你要不要用所以我們給審計長一個非常大的要求就是有這樣的權利請不要忘記你有這樣的責任"},{"start":5988.891,"end":6016.534,"text":"最重要的是我看到審計部每一年的年報上面都講了一句話說政府只能日益擴增財政收支巨額增加但是審計業務成長迅速可是審計人力都不足這30年來的年報每一次都有這樣的文字這是一個需要改革的事項的話我認為接下去的審計部就應該講得很清楚你到底人力不足在哪裡而不是因為人力不足所以你就可以"},{"start":6017.83,"end":6032.543,"text":"做到有一些事情你沒查到所以是人力不足作為你的藉口我想這個部分是我們今天對沈記長不管他通過的與否將來都應該在他的工作上怎麼樣去增加第一 運用他本來就應該有的權柄"},{"start":6033.824,"end":6049.392,"text":"审计法21条74条另外在审计法17条审计人员发现各机关人员有财务上不法或不忠于职务上的行为就要报告该审计机关而且通知各长官处分之今天发生谢宏的案子"},{"start":6049.952,"end":6070.909,"text":"就是我們前面出了錯後面也出了錯甚至機關自己官官相護長官違法底下的人也不敢甚至跟他一起共同違法挪用國家的資源我想這個才是我們今天對審計部希望他能夠有武器要懂得用"},{"start":6071.289,"end":6087.321,"text":"用了之後要按照國家的規定依照相關的權責去追究責任而且最重要的是要讓有責的人負起責任好 謝謝黃珊珊委員發言接下來我們請陳佩瑜委員發言林思明委員請準備"},{"start":6088.376,"end":6107.891,"text":"好 謝謝院長也謝謝各位出席的專家學者給予寶貴的意見那也非常謝謝所有列席的委員還有媒體的好朋友們那關於沈記長的同意權的部分剛剛其實在野黨的藍白委員也都表達了同意那這個部分我們非常期待後續的同意權在進行相關投票的時候"},{"start":6108.311,"end":6129.742,"text":"我們可以看到一個正向的結果那我想要回應剛剛有好幾位委員都提到新版的才化法那既然提到新版的才化法我們就要問當新版的才化法讓各個縣市首長的錢包變得又厚又大的時候同時他們的公事包是不是也把該做的事都帶回去了呢"},{"start":6130.682,"end":6153.293,"text":"確實在之前的修法版本當中,是權分配的事情並沒有明白的說清楚,導致有非常非常多的爭議,我想是後續朝野黨團必須要共同面對的。但如果回到財化法地方財政支出以及收入變得如此充裕的情況下,也就是我說的錢包變得又厚又大的時候,我們就要來問,"},{"start":6154.193,"end":6182.055,"text":"地方縣市首長如何在一般人民最關注的相關業務上積極的投入並且把預算把每一分錢都用到最好的地方例如說幾個非常重要的關鍵是一般人民非常在意的也常常是被很多藍白的地方首長拿出來作為政治口水的部分我想不管是民進黨、國民黨或是民眾黨團必須要一起面對這個困境第一個是關於教育的議題"},{"start":6183.756,"end":6206.42,"text":"对于审计人员来说我认为审计的意义就是要确保所有花费在教育部分的每一个花费都是必须留下真正的投资还有展现它的价值而不是累积的债务以及浪费对于下一代的孩子们来说现在的大人各位在座的我们有没有在相关的事情上看见我们对于"},{"start":6206.94,"end":6224.702,"text":"同時實踐我們自己對於下一代的承諾因此我想審計長的相關任務剛剛非常多委員也說了如何在地方財政地方審計工作確確實實做到更多更好同時也不是只是去計算一個政府單位到底花了多少錢而是去檢驗"},{"start":6225.883,"end":6247.348,"text":"這些錢對於孩子們的生活對於孩子們的學習對於下一代的教育到底產生了哪些實質的影響我想這是世代公平的核心也是我們對於未來審計工作尤其在地方縣市政府的審計工作非常非常大的期待我們希望審計工作不要只有停留在數字的檢查還要有更深的思考"},{"start":6247.948,"end":6262.224,"text":"到底這些教育經費有沒有辦法縮短成鄉差距有沒有辦法改善弱勢孩子的處境有沒有辦法增進所謂都市地區孩子在受教育權受到照顧的同時還能夠有品質的提升"},{"start":6262.745,"end":6282.93,"text":"可不可以真正為台灣的下一代教育環境創造更公平的起跑點我想因為教育業務是地方縣市首長非常重要的工作我們也希望在相關審計工作未來的規劃當中務必要把新版財化法所造成的困境在地方財政的部分要做出更實質更有意義的監督還有審查"},{"start":6284.21,"end":6309.057,"text":"除了教育之外我也想要談一談文化通常在文化預算是在各個縣市政府都被低估的預算甚至被視為是一個附屬看不出立刻的價值可是我必須要說文化才是整體社會的根才是最重要的投資我們可以看到如果在文化上我們不願意進行投資我們可能只有一次一次的放煙火我們只去看錢花了多少"},{"start":6309.477,"end":6330.13,"text":"但是我們卻沒有能力看見所謂文化投資的社會價值的話其實對於審計工作來說也是一個非常可惜的地方我們同時希望透過審計工作在地方財政文化相關工作的落實讓更多全國的人民可以了解文化不是浪費文化是讓社會變得更加的強韌"},{"start":6331.391,"end":6346.2,"text":"接下來我要談的是除了教育跟文化工作之外事實上一般人到底如何看待審計工作審計工作看起來雖然相關報告剛有很多委員也都說了是作為立法委員問政的參考但我們也要說"},{"start":6347.501,"end":6369.515,"text":"每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢人民也很想知道所有各個層級的政府花費到底對人民造成了什麼實質的生活改變創造了什麼美好的長遠的未來因此我認為站在人民的角度我們期望未來的審計工作或是相關報告或是相關的機制可以更加的透明公平以及鼓勵更多人的參與"},{"start":6370.576,"end":6385.909,"text":"我相信人民不只想要知道錢有沒有花掉人民不會只想知道錢的執行率而是人民很想知道錢到底花在哪裡有沒有真的改善我們的生活所以我希望未來的審計工作至少要做到三件事情第一個資訊公開"},{"start":6387.851,"end":6410.431,"text":"所謂的資訊公開是有沒有機會透過更新的科技更新的人力更年輕的觀點把專業的數據以及報告轉化成一般人看得懂的語言讓審計報告不是少數人的專業文件而是全民都有能夠掌握的工具以及相關的論述還有對於認識自己所繳的每一分納稅錢的看法"},{"start":6410.971,"end":6433.519,"text":"第二個,社會參與,有沒有機會讓更多的公民,像是各式各樣的專業團體、文化團體、家長團體、教育團體、各式各樣所在意的議題團體、專業社群,都能夠參與對審計結果的討論,讓這些報告不要只是放在書架上或是放在網站上,而是可以促成更多公民對話的可能。"},{"start":6434.059,"end":6459.455,"text":"第三個在現在AI工具發達的情況之下審計單位如何引進更實質更有效率同時真的可以發揮功能的數位工具讓人民也好讓相關政府單位讓相關機關都能夠在這個全新工具並且透明平台的協助底下提升人民對政府的信任同時也提升政府在預算執行的效率"},{"start":6460.731,"end":6477.182,"text":"接下來我要談審計對一般人來說是一個算帳的工作但是我們要問這是過去的觀點而這也是我們所引以為賴的一個很重要的重點但是對於未來我們如何看待每一分錢所花費的意義"},{"start":6477.842,"end":6493.361,"text":"如同我剛剛所一再強調的人民很想知道錢造成了生活什麼樣的影響對於我們所關注的教育議題社會轉型的議題文化深耕的問題各式各樣的議題有沒有帶來實質的改變因此我也想要提醒未來的沈記長"},{"start":6494.222,"end":6518.72,"text":"除了在技術以及相關資訊的能力上有所提升人力有所提升之外我們如何在審計工作加上所謂價值的提升我們希望要求未來的審計長不是只是一個會計師或是一個很會算錢很會幫人民把關的審計長而是一個價值的守護者而所謂的價值我想要談的是三件事情第一個是所謂世代爭議"},{"start":6519.801,"end":6535.022,"text":"每一分花費有沒有把財政的負擔留給下一代有沒有在這一代創造了更重要更重要的社會價值我認為世代爭議是審計工作很重要的一環接下來是相關財政的花費有沒有辦法維護公平以及公正"},{"start":6536.003,"end":6560.6,"text":"讓這些公共利益公平公正的可能性讓資源分配的更加合理不要因為地域或者是背景造成更大的落差就如同現在新版三度通過的才化法所呈現的困境一樣接下來我想要提的是神蹟工作可不可以讓人民對於社會對於政府更加的信任讓人民相信政府的花費有其意義有其價值而不是浪費"},{"start":6561.4,"end":6587.058,"text":"因此我想守護世代爭議維護公共公平還有提升社會信任絕對是審計工作非常重要的一環那對於未來的審計長我也想要提出三個期待也就是三個視野對於世代公平照顧的視野相關觀點必須要放進去還有公平的視野還有社會的視野所謂的社會視野是審計部以及審計工作不只是政府內部的工作他要如何透過專業的審計報告"},{"start":6589.019,"end":6617.859,"text":"公開透明清明化之後讓全民也可以一起參與對於政府預算的監督我想這也是未來非常重要的工作我們也希望看到這個創新的可能性最後我想說沈機長的任命代表的不只是我們對於他個人專業或是整個專業團隊專業的信任我們更希望看到一個制度的承諾以及傳承如同剛剛有非常多委員所說的我們樂於並且看見他願意勇於揭露問題"},{"start":6618.76,"end":6639.705,"text":"敢於監督政府這樣的審計長當然是全民所期待的我們更希望讓人民在這個制度之下更相信這個政府更相信體制尤其是各個地方政府或是中央政府也好讓我們每一個在意相關議題的人都可以在這個審計制度之下看到政府對於人民的承諾"},{"start":6640.586,"end":6650.018,"text":"讓我們在意教育讓在意孩子未來可以在更公平的社會裡成長讓文化在更深厚的土地上扎根我想審計長並不是幕後的會計師而是很重要在整個社會民主傳承的守護者"},{"start":6656.827,"end":6682.464,"text":"尤其在預算分配使用上確實可以展現起民主價值我們也期待未來的審計長可以以誠信更多的勇氣讓臺灣的審計制度走得更好讓我們不要只是在計算數字而是可以一起守護價值守護人民守護更重要的財政分配正義以上 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員的發言接下來我們請最後一位登記第五號林思敏委員請發言"},{"start":6685.782,"end":6709.39,"text":"好,謝謝門院長。各位委員、各位先進,大家好。我想今天是我們審計長人事統一權的一個公聽會。審計長提名的是依照憲法行使的職權,為國家任命一個非常重要的職務。審計貫穿了從預算、會計到決算最重要的一個過程。"},{"start":6710.33,"end":6735.416,"text":"在審計法第二條的規定也明定了審計職權包含了監督預算之執行、核定收支命令、審核財務收支、審定決算、稽查財務及財政上不法或不忠於職務之行為、考核財務效能、核定財務責任、其他依法律因行辦理的審計事項"},{"start":6737.556,"end":6755.693,"text":"從本條的各款職權我們可以清楚了解到要具備被提名為審計長的條件並不容易且可以說是難度極高除了必須具有高度的一個專業的會計審計學的一個學士經驗外還必須在該領域兢兢業業擔任相當的一段時間"},{"start":6763.88,"end":6780.035,"text":"更要保持成績卓著優良作為該領域的一個權威才符合法定資格被提名我們審視續任的陳瑞敏審計長是否專才事任我個人是給予肯定的"},{"start":6781.036,"end":6795.415,"text":"從他擔任公職開始我們知道他是從基層開始一任行政院海岸選防署的會計長行政院主計處第一局局長六年前由主計總處政務副主計長"},{"start":6798.699,"end":6823.068,"text":"或提名為省記長的被提名人一步一腳印腳踏實踢可以說在我國整體財政結構之下從預算、會計到決算從主計到總計表現稱職且具有相當豐富的經驗並且具有高度專業的一個權威但本席認為除了這些監督省和政府財務相關的實權外"},{"start":6825.009,"end":6849.092,"text":"更重要的是要讓隱藏在黑暗處的政府財政機閉或者是政策執行效力不彰或者並且影響或危害國家與人民權益時能夠透過審計職責的行使將各項弊端全部攤開在陽光下像是我們看到最近審計部揭露"},{"start":6850.254,"end":6877.146,"text":"第一點截至二零二五年一月底已查核的漁電共生案場中有近七成未落實養殖事業形同有電無魚第二點在九月十一號省紀部也表示在一百一十一年到一百一十三年度一百一六五專線的電話總進線數分別為六十餘萬四十九萬以及五十餘萬通"},{"start":6878.487,"end":6894.772,"text":"其中每年近有逾五萬通的電話未能及時接通或提供諮詢或協助處理詐騙案件的通報以及款項圈存的攬阻等事項存在有量能不足的問題"},{"start":6897.349,"end":6915.321,"text":"第三,我們在113年度,我們也看到中央政府的決算審查報告中,審計部也指出,勞動部在2022至2024年運用就業安定基金促進國民就業以及外國人聘僱管理及許可等計畫的政宣費以及推展費,"},{"start":6916.802,"end":6938.743,"text":"統籌辦理勞動節主題影片製作以及媒體宣傳勞動部臉書粉絲團的經營管理年節春聯以及紅包袋的製作部長三節禮品採購等案總共花了五千一百七十四萬但是這些經費的支出並未符合就業安定基金設置的目的以及基金的一個用途規定"},{"start":6939.944,"end":6963.099,"text":"此外,我們省紀部的報告也指出,我們國土署耗資數億建構的地下下水道監測系統,卻有高達850基建的監測站異常,站點比例逾半,其中未回報率高達71.88%。我們中央花這麼多治水的預算,所達成的成效,"},{"start":6963.839,"end":6980.053,"text":"卻不如預期第五 與民眾生活息息相關的台鐵省紀部同樣提到在公司化一年後雖然重大行車事故件數與員工離職率達標但涉及服務績效核心目標的準點率"},{"start":6981.135,"end":6995.095,"text":"達標率僅有93.14%甚至比公司化前一年度的95.98%還低更是自2019年持續改善後首度的反轉向下"},{"start":6995.836,"end":7020.336,"text":"以上本席所舉的例子都是審計部透過執行獨立查核讓大家知道為何政府全力推轉綠電時相關弊案卻是層出不窮也讓全民了解為何在野立委需要透過預算提案來審查嚴格監督那些未依法規的支出更針對政府施政的"},{"start":7021.516,"end":7049.486,"text":"执行度与成效性就由财务的集合将不足与需要改善的地方公开透明的呈现因此本席认为担任审计长最重要的资格能力除了熟悉审计工作与相关法规的专业外还需要有三大坚持第一能坚持持续维持并独立执行审计部的职权不受任何政党的指示影响"},{"start":7050.106,"end":7068.164,"text":"第二 堅持對於所有機關單位只要預算花費有不合支出規定者或執行成果績效有明顯落差等都應該要提出詳實的報告與建議依法審計不容許任何機關單位有所抗拒不配合"},{"start":7068.945,"end":7086.292,"text":"第三點 堅持對發生的弊案要從財務審計的角度將弊案中相關的金流支出或招標流程等將有缺失的機關單位與其因檢討改善支出的地方提出完整的審核報告"},{"start":7087.452,"end":7104.053,"text":"不容許有任何機關單位造假或不實回報我們期待省省紀長要堅持這些原則但是續任省紀長也還有不同的其他挑戰例如對於現在省紀事務工作上"},{"start":7104.654,"end":7122.325,"text":"若是遇到有機關不配合不提供相關詳實的資料內容而導致審計工作的拖延也應就現行相關的法規去審看提出是否有檢討或修法的空間此外114年審計部需要審核7976個機關"},{"start":7129.239,"end":7151.006,"text":"監督收支預算27兆餘元以現有省計人力727人計算平均每人監督377億元預算的執行更要到各地實地的查核省計人員的工作量是否會過重現有的人力是否足夠"},{"start":7151.986,"end":7163.717,"text":"审核工作是否能够落实是否需要进一步的增进改善续任的审计长也必须要有长期完整的人力发展与训练规划"},{"start":7164.554,"end":7185.461,"text":"另外,在AI的时代,如何利用相关的数位工具建立完整的审计数据资料库,协助提升审计同仁工作上的串联与效率,让审计工作能进一步的数位化与智慧化,也是未来审计部内部改善提升重要的规划方向。"},{"start":7186.421,"end":7203.364,"text":"當然也會需要我們新任的審計長的一個長期藍圖最後本席期許未來審計長新任期開始後在制定審計政策方向時除了要更加強基本審計的工作外"},{"start":7204.085,"end":7222.941,"text":"更重要的是繼續保持獨立的洞察能力要有前瞻的方向不只是審計部要有這樣的能力現在的執政團隊必須要有這樣的基本概念站在審計角度最主要的就是點出問題提醒行政部門來檢討改進從預估風險"},{"start":7226.204,"end":7249.853,"text":"與前述其他方向中我們就可以看出端倪並且要落實政見的同時就必須看到問題在預算的編列上才不會躁進的直直往前衝因為每一筆錢都是我們人民納稅人的錢這些都不只是在我們審計上會看到的問題更是不分朝野都要面對並解決的問題"},{"start":7252.932,"end":7272.171,"text":"本席另外也要特別向被提名人來提醒決算法第23條中可以清楚看到省進部肩負著審核各機關或者各基金決算每一筆預算編列的來源都是人民納稅人的辛苦錢省進部必須要能夠進行合法"},{"start":7273.452,"end":7289.467,"text":"適當效能及經濟面向的審計決算法對於決算的基本架構上是如此的宏觀尤其關乎國家百年大計永續發展的財政在審計體系上的建立應考慮以跨年度"},{"start":7289.947,"end":7312.498,"text":"跨領域、跨單位的方式來進行審核因為審計部不僅是政府財政的最後把關者更要將政府施政的缺失不及之處透過財務的審查把所有的弊端真實報告給全國民眾知道除審核政府的經費預算使用與施政目的相符合達到該有的績效成果"},{"start":7313.318,"end":7333.084,"text":"不淪為酬庸圖利的使用外也需要同步將中央與地方各機關單位在執行各項政務時是否還有任何困難或需要支援之處提出相關的建議與改善做法本席期盼未來的新任省紀長持續為人民的學安全把關"},{"start":7334.184,"end":7348.929,"text":"即使將來廢除監察院也要繼續讓審計部秉持超然獨立提升審計同仁的工作能力以及改善工作環境與工具去執行與負擔審計部的重要職務以上"},{"start":7349.485,"end":7368.074,"text":"好 謝謝林士明委員寶貴的發言接下來我們要進行最後一個程序要請各位學者專家針對剛才我們審查小組委員的詢問提出綜合答覆每位學者專家時間三分鐘我們首先請呂育成 呂教授再次發言好嗎謝謝"},{"start":7370.296,"end":7385.925,"text":"主席在座各位委員各位先進剛才聆聽各位委員以及先進的意見我主要提出兩個回應第一個我覺得我們可能還是得回到審計法的一個第二條的規定審計"},{"start":7390.205,"end":7403.835,"text":"他所要處理的議題非常的多,但是整體而言,我們可能還是在DF提到,他必須要去做考核財務效能,然後考核財務的責任。換句話說,我覺得審計的這個工作,它其實是一個專業而獨立的一個財務的幕僚。"},{"start":7410.16,"end":7428.435,"text":"那剛才很多委員所提到的,其實已經涉及到政策面,或者是一個體制面。這裡就是我個人主張,應該還是要回歸,徵求條文第七條,它要把它融入到監察院,或是監察權的這個權力來行使。"},{"start":7429.116,"end":7446.303,"text":"否則真的會產生我們說監察院跟立法院乃至於行政院各機關之間事權的一個模糊那我覺得如果要求審計部然後主動的去介入這些相關的不管你是用調查或介入"},{"start":7446.903,"end":7468.237,"text":"反而會讓整個議題更加的產生爭議性那我覺得所謂的兩害相權取其輕還不如維持審計部一個中立的客觀的專業的功能這是第一個意見第二個事實上剛才委員們所提到的這些不管是政策也好 確實是一個問題"},{"start":7469.238,"end":7497.514,"text":"但是我覺得這個問題最後的處理方式可能還是要由立法院以及監察院來發動那麼審計部我覺得它還是要保持一個客觀跟中立性它主要的角色就是非常誠實、如實地去把相關的資料乃至於財政收支做一個具體的呈現至於這些收支後面所代表的意義"},{"start":7499.014,"end":7517.524,"text":"以及關於這些數據應該要做什麼樣的一個處理或者是什麼樣的一個討論我覺得這個權利是立法院乃至於監察院應該責無旁貸的事情審計部反而不應該太過於主動的去介入"},{"start":7518.865,"end":7532.876,"text":"這個機關的這個運作的一個過程中那我覺得這樣反而可以讓這個審計部它的獨立性跟專業性獲得確保以上是我個人的回應 謝謝好 謝謝李教授的二讀反應 謝謝接下來我們請馬秀如 馬教授請"},{"start":7534.201,"end":7549.761,"text":"主席各位我覺得聽到大家的發言就是我有一個感想每個人對於審計都有他的想像然後跟我在書上念到的不太一樣然後"},{"start":7552.811,"end":7557.874,"text":"審計就是要做得好的話這個審計者必須具備兩個條件第一個能力要強然後查得出錯第二個條件操守要好"},{"start":7567.307,"end":7570.81,"text":"查得出錯以後要能夠很明確的講出來講給別人聽得懂所以剛剛在我報告的時候我有去辨認說一個我們這邊的省機長他做了哪些事情他有去辨認查核的題目然後有去找外界的人來幫忙"},{"start":7588.662,"end":7591.564,"text":"那麼有一個關鍵會讓他辨認出來的審計題目是那個審計議題是可以在關鍵會的委員的看法下面是可以提升可以改善人民的生活的然後再來就是辨認完議題以後去查核的時候他有去幫忙這些這些查核人員基層的查核人員那麼有去譬如說去設這個"},{"start":7617.432,"end":7618.874,"text":"去教導他的同仁們怎麼樣去查核我有多少時間,我可以講很久嗎?不可以嘛,對不對好,那我就不去講我自己的觀察我覺得他有做到"},{"start":7631.015,"end":7634.357,"text":"然後再來的話,審計的報告也嘗試讓它可接近老百姓,不是讓每個人很滿意,但是有嘗試在做。我現在在評估審計長過去六年的績效,快要到六年。我的看法是這樣,"},{"start":7653.266,"end":7656.949,"text":"我們在評估一個人的績效的時候要考慮他所處的環境那個環境是在審計部在監察院下頭那麼監委現在院長很久沒有來上班了然後這個監委們第六屆監委我自己當第四屆監委我那時候的院長是王建宣王院長"},{"start":7677.003,"end":7682.569,"text":"就是在評估一個人的績效的時候要考慮他所處的環境在那個環境下頭能做到這樣就像剛剛林委員有提出來說魚電共生那就查了以後有魚沒電70%他已經很明確地列出這些數字"},{"start":7700.202,"end":7728.824,"text":"然後也很就是剛剛陳委員這個陳老師陳教授在報告的時候也說我們的那個合法性的集合不是績效審計是合法性的審計合規性的審計他也給了一個很明確的數字說我找到多少錢一千多億的一個所以我覺得其實是如果今天換人來做會不會做得更好這是我在考慮的點所以"},{"start":7730.385,"end":7750.436,"text":"我的看法是肯定的以上謝謝馬教授感人的發言接下來我們請黃匯耀 黃教授剛才我有提到幾點要救救被提名人"},{"start":7751.805,"end":7778.858,"text":"的幾個觀點歡迎各黨派的立委引用一個就是去年的預算有發生法定義務支出行政院不編甚至粗暴的刪減違憲違法還有追加預算違反預算法勞保破產問題待遇改革沒有提出預警的分析然後台電虧損跟能源政策"},{"start":7780.45,"end":7808.613,"text":"省纪部也没有触及问题的核心还有国防支出暴增会排挤将来很多的预算所以我提出最后一点的就是有必要要求那个省纪长将来向立法院提出第三方的鉴定意见报告但是要如何实现呢这边可能需要修改我们的省纪法还有省纪部的组织法"},{"start":7809.574,"end":7829.297,"text":"第一个就是要求审计部审计长他不是查核的范围只限于预算执行的决算的审核而应该涉及到预算筹编方面的一些确实包括行政院跟立法院发生决算上的争议的时候"},{"start":7831.54,"end":7838.81,"text":"審計長應該提出客觀、獨立、超然的第三方意見那這個部分就有賴修正審計法跟審計部組織法"},{"start":7842.874,"end":7860.301,"text":"将这个审计部还有审计长的职权提前到预算的筹编的阶段让他可以提前参与介入甚至可以提出预警性的警戒性的分析报告然后另外一个部分就是审计长我建议是"},{"start":7861.101,"end":7873.376,"text":"应该有连任一次的限制因为一次就六年连任的话就12年等于三届立委所以如果没有任期的限制的话干了18年24年这个"},{"start":7876.66,"end":7897.674,"text":"我覺得對我們這個審計制度來講沒辦法與時俱進所以我建議立法院可以考慮將來修正審計法審計部組織法對任期給他限制然後另外一個就是預算的查核應該是提前介入到籌編的階段謝謝"},{"start":7900.802,"end":7917.987,"text":"謝謝黃教授發言您剛剛發言說想要問沈記長我猜啦我判斷沈記長正在看實況轉播他應該有聽到好 接下來我們再請陳靜才陳教授請發言 謝謝謝謝主席剛剛聆聽各位委員的高見"},{"start":7920.429,"end":7934.147,"text":"對審計工作有相當的期許,這個當然是非常好,但是審計工作畢竟還是有它的極限,它有時間的限制、人力的限制、資源的限制等等。"},{"start":7936.089,"end":7950.539,"text":"畢竟我們行政立法司法考試監察各有他的職權,那麼審計部去查這麼多的對象,那麼又有這樣的一個資源限制等等,如果他能在他目前審計法的規範範圍,把他的財務收支的傳統監督審計做好,"},{"start":7955.402,"end":7979.313,"text":"把它提升政府施政效能的洞察意見的審計做好再加上那種前瞻性的預警性的意見能做好坦白講這個在全世界來講已經是排列很前面的所以我認為說我們如果對審計人力的要求審計部審計長的要求如果能做到超然獨立 專業夠"},{"start":7981.354,"end":7998.574,"text":"然後審計人員能夠維持青年這樣的一個操守,我覺得就非常可以告慰了。所以我認為,因為我個人在公職擔任了四十幾年,對審計工作可以說有一定程度的了解。"},{"start":7999.415,"end":8007.297,"text":"那如果說審計工作呢能在這樣的一個剛剛講的這樣的情形之下來完成他的職責我覺得我們就覺得應該是可以接受的那現任審計長陳瑞銘先生那麼他以他過去六年這樣的工作成果跟他這個改革的這種意念我覺得這個人是值得我們去肯定的謝謝"},{"start":8027.297,"end":8045.89,"text":"非常感謝陳教授的二度發言謝謝今天公聽會綜合答覆我非常感謝各位學者專家也要謝謝我們審查小組的委員寶貴的意見各位在本次公聽會針對本院行使沈記長的同意權案所發表的精闢見解"},{"start":8046.95,"end":8073.434,"text":"对于本院之后全院委员会进行的审查以及将来院会行使同意权投票的时候都会有非常大的帮助这次公听会的发言也跟各位报告一下书面资料以及发言记录均会列入本院的公报记录成为国会的正式记录我再一次感谢各位学者专家的力量也再次谢谢我们审查会的委员我们现在散会"}]}},{"id":"163782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a13958d229015555cd81dff1ae621572fec62009ae35e3a5a0016a10497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"12:06:16 - 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謝謝門院長 各位委員 各位先進 大家好我想今天是我們審計長人事同意權的一個公聽會審計長提名的是依照憲法行使的職權為國家任命一個非常重要的職務審計貫穿了從預算、會計到決算最重要的一個過程"},{"start":30.345,"end":55.453,"text":"在審計法第二條的規定也明定了審計職權包含了監督預算之執行、核定收支命令、審核財務收支、審定決算、稽查財務及財政上不法或不忠於職務之行為、考核財務效能、核定財務責任、其他依法律因行辦理的審計事項"},{"start":57.213,"end":83.013,"text":"从本条的各款的职权我们可以清楚了解到要具备被提名为省纪长的条件并不容易且可以说是难度极高除了必须具有高度的一个专业的会计省纪学的一个学士经验外还必须在该领域兢兢业业担任相当的一段时间"},{"start":83.894,"end":113.013,"text":"更要保持成績卓著優良作為該領域的一個權威才符合法定資格被提名我們審視續任的陳瑞敏審計長是否專才事任我個人是給予肯定的從他這個從擔任公職開始我們知道他是從基層開始歷任行政院海岸選防署的會計長行政院主計處第一局局長"},{"start":114.014,"end":137.84,"text":"六年前由主纪总处政务副主纪长或提名为省纪长的被提名人一步一脚印脚踏实体可以说在我国整体财政结构之下从预算会计到决算从主纪到总纪表现称职且具有相当丰富的经验并且具有高度专业的权威"},{"start":138.76,"end":166.069,"text":"但本席認為除了這些監督省和政府財務相關的實權外更重要的是要讓隱藏在黑暗處的政府財政機閉或者是政策執行效力不彰或者並且影響或危害國家與人民權益時能夠透過審計職責的行使將各項弊端全部攤開在陽光下"},{"start":166.969,"end":181.787,"text":"像是我們看到最近審計部揭露第一點截至二零二五年一月底已查核的魚店共生案場中有近七成未落實養殖事業形同有電無魚第二點"},{"start":182.932,"end":187.055,"text":"在9月11日 省進部也表示在111年到113年度165專線的電話總進線數分別為60餘萬、49萬以及50餘萬通"},{"start":198.524,"end":214.909,"text":"其中每年近有逾五萬通的電話未能及時接通或提供諮詢或協助處理詐騙案件的通報以及我們款項圈存的攬阻等事項存在有量能不足的一個問題"},{"start":217.386,"end":235.335,"text":"第三,我們在一百一十三年度,我們也看到中央政府的決算審查報告中,審計部也指出,勞動部在二零二至二零二四年運用就業安定基金促進國民就業以及外國人聘僱管理及許可等計劃的政宣費以及推展費"},{"start":236.255,"end":259.101,"text":"统筹办理劳动节主题影片制作以及媒体宣传劳动部脸书粉丝团的经营管理年节春联以及红包袋的制作部长三节礼品采购等案总共花了5174万但是这些经费的支出并未符合就业安定基金设施的目的以及基金的一个用途规定"},{"start":259.981,"end":283.116,"text":"此外,我們審計部的報告也指出,我們國土署耗資數億建構的地下下水道監測系統,卻有高達850基建的監測站異常,站點比例逾半,其中未回報率高達71.88%。我們中央花這麼多治水的預算,所達成的成效,"},{"start":283.876,"end":300.07,"text":"卻不如預期第五與民眾生活息息相關的台鐵審計部同樣提到在公司化一年後雖然重大行車事故件數與員工離職率達標但涉及服務績效核心目標的準點率"},{"start":301.172,"end":315.13,"text":"達標率僅有93.14%甚至比公司化前一年度的95.98%還低更是自2019年持續改善後首度的反轉向下"},{"start":315.871,"end":340.351,"text":"以上本席所舉的例子都是省紀部透過執行獨立查核讓大家知道為何政府全力推轉綠電時相關弊案卻是層出不窮也讓全民了解為何在野立委需要透過預算提案來審查嚴格監督那些未依法規的支出更針對政府施政的"},{"start":341.713,"end":369.32,"text":"執行度與成效性藉由財務的集合將不足與需要改善的地方公開透明的呈現因此本席認為擔任審計長最重要的資格能力除了熟悉審計工作與相關法規的專業外還需要有三大堅持第一能堅持持續維持並獨立執行審計部的職權不受任何政黨的指示影響"},{"start":370.14,"end":388.181,"text":"第二 堅持對於所有機關單位只要預算花費有不合支出規定者或執行成果績效有明顯落差等都應該要提出詳實的報告與建議依法審計不容許任何機關單位有所抗拒不配合"},{"start":388.982,"end":406.592,"text":"第三點 堅持對發生的弊案要從財務審計的角度將弊案中相關的金流支出或招標流程等將有缺失的機關單位與其應檢討改善支出的地方提出完整的審核報告"},{"start":407.492,"end":424.07,"text":"不容許有任何機關單位造假或不實回報我們期待省省紀長要堅持這些原則但是續任省紀長也還有不同的其他挑戰例如對於現在省紀事務工作上"},{"start":424.671,"end":442.022,"text":"若是遇到有機關不配合不提供相關詳實的資料內容而導致審計工作的拖延也應就現行相關的法規去審看提出是否有檢討或修法的空間此外114年審計部需要審核7976個機關"},{"start":449.273,"end":471.02,"text":"監督收支預算27兆元以現有省計人力727人計算平均每人監督377億元預算的執行更要到各地實地的查核省計人員的工作量是否會過重現有的人力是否足夠"},{"start":472.02,"end":483.729,"text":"审核工作是否能够落实是否需要进一步的增进改善续任的审计长也必须要有长期完整的人力发展与训练规划"},{"start":484.568,"end":505.475,"text":"另外在AI的时代如何利用相关的数位工具建立完整的审计数据资料库协助提升审计同仁工作上的串联与效率让审计工作能进一步的数位化与智慧化也是未来审计部内部改善提升重要的规划方向"},{"start":506.435,"end":523.398,"text":"當然也會需要我們新任的審計長的一個長期藍圖最後本席期許未來審計長新任期開始後在制定審計政策方向時除了要更加強基本審計的工作外"},{"start":524.119,"end":542.978,"text":"更重要的是繼續保持獨立的洞察能力要有前瞻的方向不只是審計部要有這樣的能力現在的執政團隊必須要有這樣的基本概念站在審計角度最主要的就是點出問題提醒行政部門來檢討改進從預估風險"},{"start":546.221,"end":569.903,"text":"與前述其他方向中我們就可以看出端倪並且要落實政見的同時就必須看到問題在預算的編列上才不會躁進的直直往前衝因為每一筆錢都是我們人民納稅人的錢這些都不只是在我們審計上會看到的問題更是不分朝野都要面對並解決的問題"},{"start":572.967,"end":592.211,"text":"本席另外也要特別向被提名人來提醒決算法第23條中可以清楚看到省進部肩負著審核各機關或者各基金決算每一筆預算編列的來源都是人民納稅人的辛苦錢省進部必須要能夠進行合法"},{"start":593.472,"end":609.504,"text":"適當效能及經濟面向的審計決算法對於決算的基本架構上是如此的宏觀尤其關乎國家百年大計永續發展的財政在審計體系上的建立應考慮以跨年度"},{"start":609.984,"end":632.518,"text":"跨領域 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哇無限的放大說這個採化法有問題喔要重新來喔那我請問啊請問啊那行政院有沒有版本"},{"start":254.83,"end":266.191,"text":"到現在為止行政院完全沒有版本行政院在混行政院在混才畫法因為剛才有委員提出來我就特別來講一下"},{"start":267.096,"end":293.305,"text":"那大家都知道大家不要見數不見零啊中央政府給地方政府的三個錢第一個錢 統籌分配稅款第二個錢 一般補助款第三個錢 計畫型補助款以台北市為例他們都說喔 台北市拿最多拿450億啊統籌分配稅款 對不起一般補助款 它扣了100億回去了"},{"start":294.754,"end":318.245,"text":"計畫性補助款扣了300多億回去了所以通通等於幾乎原地踏不踏這個就是現況這時候審計長要介入啊審計部要介入啊你就發現到我們的審計長對於爭議的題目不敢碰不敢碰他除了什麼立委質詢的時候提出來有沒有有我這個人講話都很公道的"},{"start":319.512,"end":328.962,"text":"我都按照數字來講話 比如說雞蛋 超市雞蛋那是什麼 對不起 那是立法院排床報告"},{"start":330.171,"end":356.288,"text":"立委要求他就調查了立委給我做的啊我只好做啊就變成這樣子所以主動性非常不夠他有提到了你看這個審計部阿茲農委會112年3月開放雞蛋進口專案造成損失費用超過5億超過5億這個他具體的陳述他做到了"},{"start":356.96,"end":371.292,"text":"可是我覺得那時候已經吵得沸沸揚揚如果沒有排中央報告我不知道審計報告在哪裡我不知道審計報告在哪裡所以這時候我就說他一上台我就告訴他你是拿一支大刀啊結果這個大刀什麼時候要回"},{"start":374.667,"end":399.825,"text":"他發現要有人告訴他 他才敢揮啊沒有人告訴他不敢揮啊這個沈繼昌做的 我就覺得力道就稍微那個氣勢力道就稍微的差了一點這是第一個 我要提的這個極端的部分第二個對於政策 他敢不敢去沈繼昌我的看法 我在這裡這麼久沈繼昌完全不敢"},{"start":401.071,"end":424.1,"text":"幾乎不敢 比如說這兩天我們的發電我們的備轉容量剩下3.8%橘色很可怕可能很快變成紅燈橘燈變紅燈變黑燈就確定了 審計部要不要介入這時候要不要介入 什麼問題"},{"start":426.161,"end":447.66,"text":"現在可以用的都用了 新達電廠用了 林口電廠用了 頭農用了 電不夠我沒有看到神機部對這個事情有什麼看法因為現在立法院修會 沒有立法院的壓力 他就沒有動"},{"start":448.68,"end":471.109,"text":"我覺得比較遺憾的在這裡當然立法院壓力給他 我要承認講我們只要告訴他 要做這個 要做那個 他會做而且做了這個效果 這個數字也都呈現所以我給他的是 我是很客觀的講在人員領域的表現 他叫誠實中立 揭露不足他很誠實 很中立"},{"start":476.089,"end":503.365,"text":"那升級長要中立嘛 可是揭露不出比如說 我再講一個具體的 河市河市我都記得很清楚啊有一次我要專門 我個人喔這個開車道 也不是說我開車啦 反正有人給我開開到去找河市 我們要參觀河市場"},{"start":505.475,"end":530.942,"text":"結果找不到牌子啊他連牌子都拆掉了我找不到地方進去啊裡面好大好大區好大找不到牌子進去後來才發現有一個小小的牌子何時才能夠進去看這樣的一個場我們的馬秀魯教授我很尊敬的我們政大的同事馬教授啊這麼專業當過監委當過監委嘛都很清楚啊"},{"start":534.925,"end":553.534,"text":"這個會計準則 你都合適報廢掉了將近3000億的資產 為什麼要掛在資產當然你應該掛負債啊你要掛負債的話 你資產幾乎等於零了剩下就是一些 你當作破的爛鐵去賣可能剩100億吧 剩150億吧但是你也要掛將近3000億 2800多億的資產"},{"start":560.599,"end":586.792,"text":"這個老實講這個能夠通過我們會計準則嘛像這個道道地地省計長的責任但是呢他還沒有講他就是模模糊糊他的話是這樣子我念給大家聽查核核四停建後龐大資產未減損督促經濟部處置這說這聽不懂啊我查到了你們自己去處理啊所以啊"},{"start":588.593,"end":606.34,"text":"這個 這個 我們的審計上啊第一個 主動性不夠第二個 務虛大於務實因為實際上的東西 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謝謝院長也謝謝各位出席的專家學者給予寶貴的意見那也非常謝謝所有列席的委員還有媒體的好朋友們那關於沈記長的同意權的部分剛剛其實在野黨的藍白委員也都表達了同意那這個部分我們非常期待後續的同意權在進行相關投票的時候"},{"start":20.336,"end":41.755,"text":"我们可以看到一个正向的结果那我想要回应刚刚有好几位委员都提到新版的才化法那既然提到新版的才化法我们就要问当新版的才化法让各个县市首长的钱包变得又厚又大的时候同时他们的公事包是不是也把该做的事都带回去了呢"},{"start":42.695,"end":64.464,"text":"確實在之前的修法版本當中是權分配的事情並沒有明白的說清楚導致有非常非常多的爭議我想是後續朝野黨團必須要共同面對的但如果回到才化法地方財政支出以及收入變得如此充裕的情況下也就是我說的錢包變得又厚又大的時候"},{"start":64.944,"end":94.444,"text":"我们就要来问地方县市首长如何在一般人民最关注的相关业务上积极的投入并且把预算把每一分钱都用到最好的地方例如说几个非常重要的关键是一般人民非常在意的也常常是被很多蓝白的地方首长拿出来作为政治口水的部分我想不管是民进党国民党或是民众党团必须要一起面对这个困境第一个是关于教育的议题"},{"start":95.785,"end":118.428,"text":"对于审计人员来说我认为审计的意义就是要确保所有花费在教育部分的每一个花费都是必须留下真正的投资还有展现它的价值而不是累积的债务以及浪费对于下一代的孩子们来说现在的大人各位在座的我们有没有在相关的事情上看见我们对于"},{"start":118.948,"end":135.562,"text":"同時實踐我們自己對於下一代的承諾因此我想審計長的相關任務剛剛非常多委員也說了如何在地方財政地方審計工作確確實實做到更多更好同時也不是只是去計算一個政府單位到底花了多少錢"},{"start":136.463,"end":159.378,"text":"而是去檢驗這些錢對於孩子們的生活對於孩子們的學習對於下一代的教育到底產生了哪些實質的影響我想這是世代公平的核心也是我們對於未來審計工作尤其在地方縣市政府的審計工作非常非常大的期待我們希望審計工作不要只有停留在數字的檢查還要有更深的思考"},{"start":159.978,"end":174.234,"text":"到底這些教育經費有沒有辦法縮短成鄉差距有沒有辦法改善弱勢孩子的處境有沒有辦法增進所謂都市地區孩子在受教育權受到照顧的同時還能夠有品質的提升"},{"start":174.775,"end":195.277,"text":"可不可以真正为台湾的下一代教育环境创造更公平的起跑点我想因为教育业务是地方县市首长非常重要的工作我们也希望在相关审计工作未来的规划当中务必要把新版财务法所造成的困境在地方财政的部分要做出更实质更有意义的监督还有审查"},{"start":196.238,"end":221.085,"text":"除了教育之外我也想要談一談文化通常在文化預算是在各個縣市政府都被低估的預算甚至被視為是一個附屬看不出立刻的價值可是我必須要說文化才是整體社會的根才是最重要的投資我們可以看到如果在文化上我們不願意進行投資我們可能只有一次一次的放煙火我們只去看錢花了多少"},{"start":221.505,"end":242.167,"text":"但是我們卻沒有能力看見所謂文化投資的社會價值的話其實對於審計工作來說也是一個非常可惜的地方我們同時希望透過審計工作在地方財政文化相關工作的落實讓更多全國的人民可以了解文化不是浪費文化是讓社會變得更加的強韌"},{"start":243.408,"end":258.249,"text":"接下來我要談的是除了教育跟文化工作之外事實上一般人到底如何看待審計工作審計工作看起來雖然相關報告剛剛有很多委員也都說了是作為立法委員問政的參考但我們也要說"},{"start":259.531,"end":281.548,"text":"每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢人民也很想知道所有各個層級的政府花費到底對人民造成了什麼實質的生活改變創造了什麼美好的長遠的未來因此我認為站在人民的角度我們期望未來的審計工作或是相關報告或是相關的機制可以更加的透明公平以及鼓勵更多人的參與"},{"start":282.589,"end":297.834,"text":"我相信人民不只想要知道錢有沒有花掉人民不會只想知道錢的執行率而是人民很想知道錢到底花在哪裡有沒有真的改善我們的生活所以我希望未來的審計工作至少要做到三件事情第一個"},{"start":298.334,"end":322.444,"text":"资讯公开所谓资讯公开是有没有机会透过更新的科技更新的人力更年轻的观点把专业的数据以及报告转化成一般人看得懂的语言让审计报告不是少数人的专业文件而是全民都有能够掌握的工具以及相关的论述还有对于认识自己所缴的每一份纳税前的看法"},{"start":322.984,"end":345.553,"text":"第二個,社會參與。有沒有機會讓更多的公民,像是各式各樣的專業團體、文化團體、家長團體、教育團體、各式各樣所在意的議題團體、專業社群,都能夠參與對審計結果的討論。讓這些報告不要只是放在書架上,或是放在網站上,而是可以促成更多公民對話的可能。"},{"start":346.093,"end":371.497,"text":"第三個在現在AI工具發達的情況之下審計單位如何引進更實質更有效率同時真的可以發揮功能的數位工具讓人民也好讓相關政府單位讓相關機關都能夠在這個全新工具並且透明平台的協助底下提升人民對政府的信任同時也提升政府在預算執行的效率"},{"start":372.762,"end":389.215,"text":"接下來我要談審計對一般人來說是一個算帳的工作但是我們要問這是過去的觀點而這也是我們所引以為賴的一個很重要的重點但是對於未來我們如何看待每一分錢所花費的意義"},{"start":389.855,"end":405.397,"text":"如同我剛剛所一再強調的人民很想知道錢造成了生活什麼樣的影響對於我們所關注的教育議題社會轉型的議題文化深耕的問題各式各樣的議題有沒有帶來實質的改變因此我也想要提醒未來的沈記長"},{"start":406.258,"end":430.731,"text":"除了在技術以及相關資訊的能力上有所提升人力有所提升之外我們如何在審計工作加上所謂價值的提升我們希望要求未來的審計長不是只是一個會計師或是一個很會算錢很會幫人民把關的審計長而是一個價值的守護者而所謂的價值我想要談的是三件事情第一個是所謂世代爭議"},{"start":431.832,"end":447.037,"text":"每一分花費有沒有把財政的負擔留給下一代有沒有在這一代創造了更重要更重要的社會價值我認為世代爭議是審計工作很重要的一環接下來是相關財政的花費有沒有辦法維護公平以及公正"},{"start":448.037,"end":473.866,"text":"讓這些公共利益公平公正的可能性讓資源分配的更加合理不要因為地域或者是背景造成更大的落差就如同現在新版三度通過的才化法所呈現的困境一樣接下來我想要提的是神蹟工作可不可以讓人民對於社會對於政府更加的信任讓人民相信政府的花費有其意義有其價值而不是浪費因此我想"},{"start":474.426,"end":499.088,"text":"守護世代爭議維護公共公平還有提升社會信任絕對是審計工作非常重要的一環那對於未來的審計長我也想要提出三個期待也就是三個視野對於世代公平照顧的視野相關觀點必須要放進去還有公平的視野還有社會的視野所謂的社會視野是審計部以及審計工作不只是政府內部的工作他要如何透過專業的審計報告"},{"start":501.05,"end":529.893,"text":"公開透明清零化之後讓全民也可以一起參與對於政府預算的監督我想這也是未來非常重要的工作我們也希望看到這個創新的可能性最後我想說沈機長的任命代表的不只是我們對於他個人專業或是整個專業團隊專業的信任我們更希望看到一個制度的承諾以及傳承如同剛剛有非常多委員所說的我們樂於並且看見他願意勇於揭露問題"},{"start":530.794,"end":551.737,"text":"敢於監督政府這樣的審計長當然是全民所期待的我們更希望讓人民在這個制度之下更相信這個政府更相信體制尤其是各個地方政府或是中央政府也好讓我們每一個在意相關議題的人都可以在這個審計制度之下看到政府對於人民的承諾"},{"start":552.618,"end":562.029,"text":"讓我們在意教育讓在意孩子未來可以在更公平的社會裡成長讓文化在更深厚的土地上扎根我想審計長並不是幕後的會計師而是很重要在整個社會民主傳承的守護者"},{"start":568.837,"end":587.792,"text":"尤其在預算分配使用上確實可以展現起民主價值我們也期待未來的審計長可以以誠信更多的勇氣讓台灣的審計制度走得更好讓我們不要只是在計算數字而是可以一起守護價值守護人民守護更重要的財政分配爭議以上 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財政部部長經濟部部長及相關部會首長列席報告中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案便是經過並被質詢質詢人數由國民黨黨團推派10人民進黨黨團推派10人臺灣民眾黨黨團推派2人進行"},{"start":1988.12,"end":2010.277,"text":"質詢順序依例授權議事處辦理名單請於10月2日星期四中午12時前送至議事處會診議案詢談完畢後提交審查各黨團同意不提出復議6.本第四會期自10月3日星期五起每週五及次週二視為一次院會國事論壇及臨時提案依往例處理"},{"start":2011.378,"end":2039.04,"text":"週五上午九時至十時為國事論壇時間週二下午五時至六時處理臨時提案諮詢期間週二下午二十十五分至二十三十分處理臨時提案其本第四會期各委員會召集委員之選舉不受立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法之限制其日程表如附件三主持人韓國瑜將啟程其當代表婚婚期"},{"start":2039.76,"end":2050.875,"text":"羅志強 林沛翔 柯建銘 吳思堯陳培宇 張祺凱 陳肇志 黃國昌宣布完畢全院院會對以上朝野黨的協商結論有依面臨我們通過一百一四年"},{"start":2051.328,"end":2073.361,"text":"九月十二日朝野党团协商结论 今决定如下一 各党团同意于九月十九日星期五举行第十一届第四会期第一次会议第一次会议议程草案金松院会处理议程包括思想纪念第三会期第二十七次会议议事录中央政府因应国际情势强化经济社会及民生国安任性特别预算案及"},{"start":2073.82,"end":2087.234,"text":"各委員會召集委員選舉時間地點表當次會議我們不進行國事論壇及不處理臨時提案9月19日星期五 院會報告事項處理完畢同日改開全院委員會進行審查長"},{"start":2087.935,"end":2116.407,"text":"人事同意全案上午公聽會下午審查會同日上午七點起於議場進行院會及全院委會簽到二 九月十九日星期五上午四點三十分舉行審計長人事同意全案公聽會由各黨團推薦學者專家代表五位參加由國民黨團推派兩位民進黨團推派兩位台灣民眾黨團推派一位各黨團審查小組以以上數比例推派委員組成"},{"start":2117.148,"end":2124.478,"text":"名单于9月12日星期五下午4点前交议事处会诊,已必办理后续事宜。"},{"start":2126.4,"end":2146.947,"text":"9月19日星期五下午3點召開全委委員會省長長提備提名人由國民黨團推派三位民進黨團推派三位臺灣民眾黨團推派一位代表進行詢答名單請於9月18日星期四中午12點前送交議事處會診預時視同放棄詢答順序一例授權議事處辦理同意全相關事務及時程"},{"start":2148.593,"end":2170.211,"text":"祥儒附件一是九月三十號星期二舉行第四會期第二次會議議程草案禁送院會進行處理上午報告事項先處理討論事項儒附件二附議案三案當次會議我們不再處理變更議程討論事項B進行審計長人事同意全案記名投票表決"},{"start":2171.311,"end":2195.296,"text":"當日院會不再進行國事論壇以及不再處理臨時提案下午2點30分邀請行政院長率同各部會首長列席進行施政報告並備諮詢報告後隨即進行政黨諮詢當日諮詢人數由國民黨團推派一位民進黨團推派一位台灣民眾黨團推派一位進行諮詢順序依照民進黨團國民黨團台灣民眾黨團之順序進行有關諮詢期間之順序及人數"},{"start":2197.276,"end":2221.863,"text":"均一例授權一時數辦理施政報告委員個人諮詢至登記10月7日星期二截止五 10月3日星期五舉行第四會及第三次會議邀請行政院長 組織長 財政部長經濟部長及相關部會所長列席報告中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安人性特別預算案編制報告並被諮詢諮詢人數由國民黨團推派10位民進黨團推派10位"},{"start":2223.963,"end":2238.068,"text":"臺灣民眾黨團推派兩位進行諮詢順序一例授權議事處處理名單請於10月2日星期四中午12點前送交議事處會診議案詢討完畢後 即將審查各黨團同意不再提出賦予"},{"start":2239.332,"end":2254.961,"text":"本第四會期自10月3日星期五起每週五及次週二視為議事院會國事論壇及臨時提案依往例處理週五上午9點至10點為國事論壇週二下午5點至6點處理臨時提案諮詢期間週二下午2點15分至2點30分處理臨時提案七"},{"start":2262.105,"end":2273.662,"text":"本第四会期各委员会召集委员之选举不受立法院各委员会召集委员选举办法之限制其日程表如附件三我们现在请议事人员宣读第二案"},{"start":2276.167,"end":2292.494,"text":"立法院黨團協商結論實踐一百十四年九月十二日星期五上午十時地點紅樓三零二會議室協商主題延伸有關憲法法庭衛生理行政院就警察人員人事條例第三十五條第一項第四款含附表三第二項第三項及第六項規定"},{"start":2293.857,"end":2318.202,"text":"之申請案請本院提供書面意見及相關資料事宜寫上結論一有關憲法法庭未審理一四年度憲國自第四號申請人行政院申請案請本院提供書面意見及相關資料各黨團同意由國民黨黨團及臺灣民眾黨黨團推派一件委員代表及委任律師或相關學者提出說明"},{"start":2319.102,"end":2344.852,"text":"及後續出庭參與訴訟等事宜名單請於9月16日星期二中午12時前送至法治局必憑辦理後續相關事宜事後獻法庭來文均授權法治局盡洽國民黨黨團及臺灣民眾黨黨團辦理相關事宜二本院函附憲法法庭時法治局應將提供之書面意見及相關資料送請各黨團參閱三"},{"start":2347.173,"end":2366.235,"text":"本屆类此事宪案均由事宪案之相对党团依宪法法庭通知内容推派见代表代理人或鉴定人等提供书面意见或参与诉讼不再主案提报党团协商并授权法治及"},{"start":2367.176,"end":2380.275,"text":"敬洽相對黨團辦理相關事宜協商主持人韓國益 江啟臣協商代表傅坤吉 羅志強 林沛翔柯建民 吳思堯 陳培宇 張祺凱陳肇之 黃國昌宣讀完畢請院會對以上參與黨團協商結論有異議"},{"start":2382.538,"end":2409.821,"text":"命令一 我們就通過114年度9月12日朝野黨團協商結論 經決定如下一 有關憲法法庭會審114年度憲國制第四號申請人行政院申請案請本院提供書面意見及相關資料各黨團同意由國民黨團及臺灣民眾黨黨團推薦委員代表及委任律師或相關學者提出說明及後續出庭參與訴訟等事宜"},{"start":2410.522,"end":2414.018,"text":"名單起於9月16日星期二中午12點前送至法治局"},{"start":2415.222,"end":2441.944,"text":"已必後續辦理相關事宜之後 憲法法庭來文均授權法治局盡洽國民黨團及臺灣民眾黨團辦理相關事宜二 本院函附憲法法庭時法治局應將提供之書面意見及相關資料送請各黨團參閱三 本屆類似事件案均由事件案之相關黨團一 憲法法庭通知"},{"start":2442.885,"end":2459.45,"text":"內容推派代表、代理人或鑑定人等提供書面意見或參與訴訟不再逐案提報黨團協商並授權法治局盡以相對黨團辦理相關事宜報告委員會我們本次會議的議程就照剛才黨團協商結論通過本次會議議事日程確定"},{"start":2467.475,"end":2490.158,"text":"現在進行報告事項請秘書長宣讀第三會期第二十七次會議議事錄宣讀立法院第十一屆第三會期第二十七次會議議事錄時間中華民國一百十四點八月二十九日上午九十至下午一時十三分一時二十分至一時二十一分三十至四十五十二分地點本院議場出席委員陳委員陪議等一百十一人"},{"start":2490.858,"end":2515.82,"text":"請教委員 委員寬能等二人主席院長韓國瑜報告事項第一案宣讀本院第十一屆第三會期第二十六次會議議事錄決定確定第二三五至十九二十二二十六至四十六十九至四三五案均決定交互相關委員會審查處理或交互相關委員會第四二十二十一二十三至二十五四十七案均決定經獲得"},{"start":2517.481,"end":2540.778,"text":"第48案決定另定其處理第436案維修縣委員會所提出報告案諮詢事項本院委員諮詢部分三件討論事項第146案均決議通過第7案決議另定其處理其他事項一 114年8月29日朝夕黨團協商結論一件二 國民黨黨團 民進黨黨團分別提議抽出軍貿獨共奧案"},{"start":2546.182,"end":2547.843,"text":"均予以通告宣讀完畢報告"},{"start":2559.926,"end":2583.745,"text":"第二案 行政院喊請審議中央政府因應國際形勢強化經濟社會及民生國安日性特別預算案案議事處理件 依114年9月12日黨團協商結論定於10月3日星期五邀請行政院院長 主席長 財政部部長 經濟部部長及相關部會所長列席報告編制經過並被質詢 宣讀完畢我們是做以下決定 無疑通過 請宣讀第三案"},{"start":2584.229,"end":2596.92,"text":"第三案本院人事處涵搜立法院第十一屆第四會期各委員會較集委員選舉時間地點表時間114年10月1日星期三上午9時至12時地點如下內政委員會紅樓202會議室外交及國防委員會紅樓301會議室經濟委員會紅樓101會議室財政委員會群憲樓9樓大禮堂"},{"start":2607.429,"end":2624.799,"text":"教育及文化委員會群衔樓101會議室交通委員會紅樓201會議室司法及法治委員會紅樓302會議室社會福利及衛生環境委員會群衔樓801會議室議事注意件 理解委員會招案通過宣讀完畢我們先做一下決定 無異議通過"},{"start":2626.26,"end":2641.677,"text":"抱怨会本次会议议程报告事项均已经处理完毕项院会报告依照刚才协商结论决定今天上午十点三十分与九楼大礼堂举行省记长同意全案的公听会并于今天下午三点"},{"start":2642.518,"end":2667.71,"text":"今天下午三點於議場召開全院委會審查會請各位委員踴躍出席我們繼續處理副議案本院民進黨黨團針對第三會期第二十七次會議報告事項第二十案第二十一案之決定提出副議案請公決案我們現在做以下決定令定期處理報告委員會本次會議進行到此為止現在散會"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}