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三個黨團的代表都到了嘛好 非常感謝各位那因為現在的時間2點31分那已經到了開會的時間2點半那我們就今天正式開始今天的黨團協商那暗友是本院國發基金"},{"start":1861.724,"end":1882.249,"text":"不當投資及管理失職調查委員會含送國發基金不當投資及管理失職調查委員會調查報告書案經院會決議調查報告書含處理意見及台灣民眾黨黨團之提議並同交付黨團協商"},{"start":1884.448,"end":1911.655,"text":"我們先介紹今天與會的各個黨團的代表首先介紹民主進步黨黨團的代表鍾嘉斌委員沈博洋委員以及中國國民黨黨團的代表林佩祥委員還有台灣民眾黨黨團的代表陳昭芝委員今天也感謝有行政機關有列席包括"},{"start":1912.902,"end":1941.557,"text":"國家發展委員會的葉俊賢主任委員高先貴副主任委員法治協調處林豐文處長還有國發基金葉淑雯代理執行秘書經濟部產業發展署周宇新副署長感謝這些行政官員列席我們現在開始協商不曉得哪一位黨團的代表要先發言"},{"start":1944.554,"end":1969.59,"text":"好 我們現在先請沈博洋沈委員發言好 那這個因為在這個協商的階段那當然我們不是要針對這個的內容因為內容並不是協商的這個重點重點還是我們從第一次因為我自己也是這個調查委員會的那我們從第一次一直到現在所主張的事情其實也沒有什麼改變那希望這件事情能夠在這個調查委員會重新被考量"},{"start":1970.49,"end":1996.832,"text":"第一個當然就是當時成立這個調查委員會雖然這個主席一直都強調說這個是一個院會所交付但院會所交付的這件事情它對於這個範圍 目的還有方法就非常的不明確所以它不符合我們傳統對於這個調查權的行使我覺得這是第一點當時我也特別提到就是說這個裡面很多提到的案件都是在還沒有這個調查委員會的時候就已經在外面的不管是媒體"},{"start":1997.672,"end":2025.016,"text":"還是說這一個相關的調查都已經在進行當中所以它本來它沒有一些新東西那就變成說這個跟最近發生的事情其實很類似就是說我們通常要查不管所謂的弊案一定是先有弊案然後我們再來做調查但除了本來就已經在進行中的調查之外直接把國發基金去劃定這個範圍來做調查這個不是弊案的調查方式這個就是等於是"},{"start":2025.556,"end":2050.765,"text":"直接劃定一個範圍我認為這邊可能有然後就直接做調查我覺得這可能並不是一個正當的方式這個我們在第一次第二次開會的時候都已經主張過那我希望還是再留下記錄再主張一次那第二個就是根據這個立職法46條之二這個第二項最重要的事情就是當他其他依法應獨立行使的機關本於職權處理中的案件他不應該在我們現在調查範圍之內"},{"start":2052.466,"end":2080.934,"text":"那这个里面我们这个大家最常提到的不管是如新还是联合再生这就是我刚刚讲的它就是本来就已经在进行中的案件也是在外面不管是说被爆料被报导什么等等的案件它就是一个在进行中那所以我们去进行这样的一个调查委员会其实是非常不适当的那但是这个狗肺火车我们就已经从第一次讲到现在也讲了蛮多次了但是我觉得在这个协商的时候我们还是一样的再把这个意见提出来谢谢"},{"start":2082.635,"end":2097.034,"text":"好 謝謝民主進步黨黨團的代表沈博洋 沈委員接下來民眾黨黨團的代表跟中國國民黨黨團的代表誰要先發言我先跟大家講一下發言規則啦原則上我們還是以黨團當作單位大家如果要"},{"start":2098.295,"end":2117.731,"text":"要輪流發言要第二輪要第三輪再來說因為今天這個是黨團協商今天沒有要辯論也沒有要吵架但是既然來了我還是會希望保留給大家發言的權利跟機會但是為了要公平己見既然是黨團協商那我們就按照黨團為單位來輪流的進行"},{"start":2120.573,"end":2140.978,"text":"接下來請教是要中國國民黨黨團還是台灣民眾黨黨團我們先請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表陳昭志陳委員我想先做一個基本原則的發言當然剛剛陳委員說為什麼調查中的案子不能夠來進行這個我完全不理解我大腦裡面有這個邏輯立法委員就是發揮立法委員的職責"},{"start":2142.078,"end":2147.26,"text":"我們可以監督我們該行使監督權的部分我們就來做最重要是事實有事實那至於是不是有懷疑先有弊案弊案也是要調查才會有弊案那就是要有一個調查那難道一口咬定嗎有罪推定嗎大家鼓勵這樣做所以這個就是一個調查過程是必要這是一個非常基本原則"},{"start":2162.964,"end":2167.048,"text":"那原則上我初步看因為資料很多就是這些認為這個有問題的一些基本原則都符合我們一般會議不要說這麼重要的國安會議國發會的一些這麼重要的國家發展基金的審查比如說先不要說違背宗旨這個是第一個你外省的專家為什麼你說會剩外省的專家這就是要能夠"},{"start":2186.184,"end":2213.382,"text":"比較能夠避開自己內部人自己自我審理自我監督這個大家都知道有內集合外集合那外省專家的意見他就是即便反對即便很具體那都是好像就沒有就是說聽而不聞那等於說這個監督機制是不存在的那很重要的就是說這個每個人去投票這麼重要的事情去投票你沒有序名理由你就支持也罷你反對也罷"},{"start":2214.623,"end":2242.913,"text":"面对这么多已经有外省的委员提出意见当然我现在没有办法一一举例读起来都惊心动魄的都很具体每件事有数字有来源有状况什么代理请假都算数等等我们对于这么重大的这么大的高额的费用但我们在做一般的会议都应该审慎有个程序的正义今天我们发现这里面有这么多的问题大家很认真辛苦做了100页大概60页的资料"},{"start":2243.593,"end":2268.432,"text":"那當然是成立啊這個調查案當然是成立啊我先做第一次發言好 謝謝好 謝謝陳昭之委員那我們補充介紹那個陳昭明委員中國國民黨黨團的代表那現在中國國民黨黨團是請問哪一位要代表發言來 請林沛翔林委員黨團我們尊重民眾黨黨團而且認同你們的意見然後尊重主席的發言跟才是"},{"start":2270.185,"end":2291.077,"text":"好謝謝貝翔委員那現在各個黨團的代表都已經完成第一輪的發言請問各個黨團的代表要不要進行第二輪的發言好我們請民主進步黨黨團的代表鍾嘉斌鍾委員發言首先先說結論本調查委員會從成立至調查過程多次違法亂紀未符合正當程序"},{"start":2291.795,"end":2308.16,"text":"所提出的調查報告及處理意見自不具正當性因此今日的協商本黨團的態度跟立場就是如此那麼接續剛剛我們沈博洋委員就他參與的部分之後那麼本席這邊也提出了為什麼民主進步黨黨團"},{"start":2309.9,"end":2333.19,"text":"認為由於程序上的未符正當程序他的調查報告及處理意見呢不具有價值我們首先後續來看到在今天我們的會議資料的首頁這是調查委員會發函給院會在5月15號他提到說根據新的立職法當中調查規定30日內要提出那的確從4月"},{"start":2336.355,"end":2351.472,"text":"3月底完成调查之后在4月30日届满这所谓的30日因此在5月15号向院会提出到现在一晃眼间又是超过4个月的时间今天我们在这里进行朝野协商"},{"start":2352.273,"end":2374.647,"text":"就一个已经不具有时效性的调查报告尽管多次违反了程序正义但是我们在这里召开这个朝野企业商它的意义何在这当中我们历经了所谓的当时的励志法的修法还抛课了配合的揭秘者保护法当时是认为透过揭秘 透过爆料可以将行政机关的内情"},{"start":2375.347,"end":2401.403,"text":"予以接入到立法院来进行调查我们看到了所谓的揭秘者到现在变成一个闹剧到现在到底这样的报告内容当中有没有一些过去涉及不法搜集的证据我想这个自然留待外界逐步的去厘清但是在旧本委员会召开期间还是有多次的违反程序正义的方式来处理首先第一个他违反了法定保密义务"},{"start":2402.023,"end":2418.464,"text":"本委員會在4月16號公開舉行第五次的全體委員會議的時候當時本席在場也針對如何落實立法院職權刑事法第52條有關不得介入調查內容之規定時當時的主席黃昭基委員"},{"start":2419.585,"end":2448.869,"text":"這五期詞提不出具體的作為及方案來回應委員的質疑當時我們提到了如果是一個不介入調查內容那當時會場有沒有轉播當時我們的會議資料有沒有編號有沒有收回這些應具備的作為都不繼續作為還繼續進行公開的會議並且要求官員就本會調查範圍的事項進行報告已經明確違反調查委員會提出"},{"start":2449.449,"end":2468.446,"text":"调查报告书之前的法定保密义务所以这一点有参与会议的包括在场的委员跟工作人员都非常的清楚甚至那天在其他地方透过我们的视讯传输不小心看到因保密的会议内容的其他的人员也是非常的了解"},{"start":2469.187,"end":2491.886,"text":"再来其次呢 主席戴呼职守 开会过程荒腔走板在4月28日的第六次全体委员会 开会通知的时间为下午2点结果在当天已经达开会时间 而且当场出席的委员已达法定人数而当日的会议主席仍然是黄兆奇委员 进步宣布开会"},{"start":2492.566,"end":2510.88,"text":"在在場委員包括本席在內表達說應準時開會來行使立法委員職權不為所動甚至發生了會議室的時鐘居然在這裡這麼巧合的故障的離譜情勢荒謬至極明明已經達開會時間結果我們的時鐘居然就不會動了"},{"start":2512.011,"end":2527.102,"text":"那麼而且開會通知住民說本次會議不公開但是我們本院的相關議事規則完全沒有所謂的會議不公開的用語如果是秘密會議就是秘密會議秘密會議自然有秘密會議的規範"},{"start":2528.163,"end":2546.729,"text":"但是會議進行中如果有不公開舉行的必要那麼馬上應該改開秘密會議主席當下也沒有依照所謂的不公開的情況依本院相關議事規則辦理到目前為止都查不出我們沒有任何該次會議的相關影音的記錄"},{"start":2548.888,"end":2573.915,"text":"目前我們為止我們對第六次會議的會議沒有任何的影音記錄如果是秘密會議那麼這些內容是不公開的是保密的如果不是秘密會議這些所有的會議當中的影音記錄就應該維持本院公開透明的民主原則來進行公開不然就背道而馳成為了黑箱會議"},{"start":2574.915,"end":2587.967,"text":"因此呢我們在這裡再次的重申由於本市調查委員會由於召集委員主席的代呼職守造成了程序上的不正當不公義因此呢我們認為內容置不可採 以上好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員那請問其他兩個黨團的代表還有沒有意見要說明來請陳超明陳委員"},{"start":2599.673,"end":2619.175,"text":"其實這個調查是很正確的那我跟你講為什麼我敢講說很正確的我希望大家要真的對國發基金的投資要小心如先股份有限公司他原始的公司在阻卵症所以大概的內情我都曉得"},{"start":2620.563,"end":2640.59,"text":"第二個在聯合再生裡面你去了解公司跟民間的講法他的做法我相信大家一清二楚今天的召委有這種膽量提出來我們要欽佩難免投資會有失誤的但是這個失誤有一點太奇怪了我只是跟"},{"start":2643.88,"end":2664.735,"text":"那個我們那個國外會你們聯絡基金的我只點到這樣你們大概都很清楚了這個報告實在講是應該你們值得去好好的研究一下謝謝好 謝謝陳昌明委員那跟各個黨團的代表說明第一個"},{"start":2665.922,"end":2682.663,"text":"今天是協商讓各個黨團的代表表達各自黨團的立場因此我今天一開始就已經表明了今天協商不是要來吵架的也不是要來辯論的大家有立場各自講清楚就好了"},{"start":2683.567,"end":2704.245,"text":"至於說對我個人有一些指教儘管我主觀上面認為與客觀事實不符因為就這個國發基金調查委員會從開始到現在所有議事的進行都是配合著我們立法院公正中立的議事人員大家的建議在進行的"},{"start":2705.046,"end":2714.408,"text":"那如果連會議室裡面的時鐘不會動都要甩鍋到我頭上那我真的是夫婦合言不知道該說些什麼才好"},{"start":2715.233,"end":2743.635,"text":"但我還是要跟大家報告的是比較重要的是什麼比較重要的是會議這個調查報告提出來的結論以及我們一開始提出這個調查案的時候針對有關於產創條例應該要怎麼修法怎麼要強化對國發基金相關的管理因為過去這幾年從這份調查報告可以清楚的看得出來荒腔走板"},{"start":2744.537,"end":2761.349,"text":"不把納稅人的錢當錢的事情真的太多了荒腔走板不把納稅人的錢當錢的事情真的太多了那當然相關各個主題裡面調查的結果是不是公正客觀有沒有證據來當作支持"},{"start":2763.59,"end":2780.435,"text":"那我相信在這個調查委員會結束正式送交給院會來進行處理以後在立法院的公報上面都會進行勘斬那全民都可以來加以評判因為本院任何的工作本來就是要經過公眾輿論的監督"},{"start":2784.316,"end":2812.136,"text":"至於說這份調查報告裡面針對最後有關產創條例修法的建議主採不可載也是給各個立法委員做參考當然每一個黨團可以有自己的立場台灣民眾黨黨團也提出了我們產創條例的修正草案進一步的擴張了對於整個國發基金它監管的密度跟強度以及問責性的要求"},{"start":2812.856,"end":2832.353,"text":"那不管怎麼樣這份報告最後就是送給院會來加以處理也會接受台灣社會各界各方先進的指教那因為民主進步黨黨團已經清楚的表明他們認為這個報告這個調查程序不具有正當性剛剛黨團的幹部"},{"start":2835.075,"end":2856.309,"text":"應該是幹事長鍾嘉斌也代表黨團表達這樣的看法因此我們這樣子的一個國發基金調查報告就沒有辦法獲至協商的結論我們接下來就依照議事規則送院會來加以處理現在沈委員要進行第三輪的發言嗎好來我們進行第三輪的發言請沈委員"},{"start":2858.351,"end":2874.93,"text":"謝謝主席那我還是再講一次因為剛剛這個邵志文有提到就是關於訴訟中進行的案件這個是在立職法第46條之二第二項他明文規定的就是在進行中的這一個訴訟案件立法院不得行使調查權這是法律規定這不是我自己發明的"},{"start":2875.71,"end":2899.203,"text":"但是我們還是要釐清一下就是說在這整件事情裡面本來就有的不管是聯合再生還是這個如新它本身就是它有法律上的調查如果政治責任的話還有監察院的調查立法院能夠做的就像剛剛主席有提到的是關於這一個修法相關的我們今天調查並不是以這個弊案作為一個標的而是以說我們現在修法需要什麼樣的資料必須可能要藉由調查文會來獲得"},{"start":2900.223,"end":2921.443,"text":"那這就是我要提的就是說我們從一開始就一直提到如果今天已經有舊有的案件不管是公聽會不管是質詢不管是今天修法在這個委員會的討論其實都可以達到一樣的目的那為何今天必須要用這樣的一個調查委員會這是我們一直質疑的地方這還不包含剛剛講的這些程序上的問題那還是做一個簡單的回覆以上"},{"start":2922.321,"end":2938.319,"text":"好 謝謝沈博洋委員因為陳肇智委員他之前沒有參加這個調查委員會那我先跟各位做一個簡要的說明第一個 盧新碧案檢察官起訴的犯罪事實跟本調查委員會所調查的事實沒有重疊"},{"start":2939.62,"end":2958.507,"text":"如果你有看一下起訴書的話就不會產生這麼大的誤會我的我再說明一次盧新碧案檢察官起訴書的起訴犯罪事實跟本調查委員會所指責國發基金在投資過程當中的違法不當兩者沒有重疊第二個部分"},{"start":2959.347,"end":2986.346,"text":"聯合再生目前沒有任何刑事案件在調查當中那為什麼會這個樣子我也是充滿了困惑我也是充滿了困惑聯合再生的關係非常的好到目前為止沒有任何刑事調查案件對他進行那聯合再生的確有被監察院糾正過但是糾正案也結束了那監察院的那份調查報告我比較直白的講不痛不癢"},{"start":2987.708,"end":3009.444,"text":"不痛不癢 不想要再寫什麼東西那大家如果有興趣的話我這樣講當然要負責嘛等到這個調查報告院會通過在立法院公報上網了以後大家可以去看一看監察院的調查報告跟本調查委員會所做出來的調查報告在監督的力道上在真相的發掘上"},{"start":3011.004,"end":3035.072,"text":"哪一份調查報告寫得比較好這個是台灣每一個公民都可以評判加以事項那當然對於執政黨的立委來講他們只有一個從頭到尾就只有一個原則就立法院不要調查立法院不要調查講完了只有這句話沒有其他的話那當然作為執政黨的立委要護航護成這個樣子"},{"start":3036.929,"end":3063.008,"text":"台灣人民是不是可以接受大家都有一雙眼睛會盯著看當然有本份調查報告接下來會有很多值得進一步質詢進一步追究責任甚至要督促國發基金應該有的作為上面有很多事情大家都可以繼續追問我就簡單問一件事你投資聯合再生到現在虧了多少錢"},{"start":3066.055,"end":3077.26,"text":"你投資聯合債券現在虧了多少錢你答應要做的四股作業 現在試了幾股我最後一次發函去問 試了22萬股 開什麼玩笑啊上千萬股 結果現在試了22萬股那這個錢是誰 那這個錢是誰要賠這錢不是納稅的買單嗎"},{"start":3092.526,"end":3118.881,"text":"更不要講人和再生最近所做的一些侵害員工權益的事情但我說過今天是協商今天不是究責調查報告裡面非常多的內容包括了為什麼評選委員可以評選完跑去當董事這簡直是荒腔走板我當評選委員拿納稅人的錢投資你這家公司結果我後來跑去你這家公司當董事哪有人這樣幹的"},{"start":3122.062,"end":3136.394,"text":"那這個是為什麼當然也不是我一個人說的就以我說的為主或說的算我說過這個調查報告依照法定的程序做那接下來就送個院會處理院會完了以後就公告在立法院公報上"},{"start":3138.22,"end":3161.867,"text":"台灣的每一份公民都可以看得到啊寫的有道理沒有道理是真的是假的納稅人是不是有承受損失誰應該要負責任這個都是在台灣民主社會當中要問責本來就應該要進行的程序啊而不是如同部分的委員所講的國會不能調查把所有臭不可聞的東西都遮起來這件事情就這樣算了"},{"start":3162.898,"end":3186.713,"text":"好 那非常感謝各位委員以及行政機關代表的出席以及列席那因為今天民主進步黨黨團他們對於這個報告他們表示沒有辦法接受那因此協商不成立我們接下來就依照立法院治權刑事法相關的規定送交院會來加以處理那今日的協商到此為止感謝各位委員以及行政官員的參與謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":3190.094,"end":3192.94,"text":"辛苦 不會 不會辛苦 辛苦 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宣讀第十一屆第四會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項 選舉第十一屆第四會期本會召集委員主席宣告 推選劉委員舒冰及陳委員秀寶為立法院第十一屆第四會期教育及文化委員會召集委員 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1717.594,"end":1741.85,"text":"请问各位委员上次会议议事录有无错误或遗漏之处那因为在场委员未达议决人数三人我们议事录暂不确定今天的议程是一审查有关中国民国政组学会为建议修正国民教育法第四条规定请愿案二审查有关张凯祥军等为建议修正教师法第47条条文请愿案"},{"start":1742.37,"end":1771.348,"text":"三 審查有關王晏涵君等未建議修正性別平等教育法第二條第三條及第三十條條文請願案四 審查有關梁君傅君未建議修正學位授予法條文請願案五 審查有關魏濟紅君未建請增訂補習及進修教育法條文以維護校園秩序請願案首先介紹在場委員"},{"start":1773.717,"end":1796.022,"text":"吳麗華委員羅廷維委員接下來我們介紹與會官員教育部我們政務次長張廖萬堅次長教育部國教署專門委員廖曼雲專委"},{"start":1799.775,"end":1816.066,"text":"教育部學特司專門委員許惠清專委高等教育司吳志偉專委專生教育司紀賢陽專委我們現在現場的委員有三人我們先來確定議事錄請問上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有 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看到上面了再來曾鋒是陳主任"},{"start":1872.982,"end":1874.404,"text":"繼續請中央選舉委員會主委報告"},{"start":1893.567,"end":1909.168,"text":"主席 各位委員女士先生貴委員會今天舉行全體委員會議本人應邀列席報告業務概況並被質詢深感榮幸以下僅就本會近期辦理的各項工作分別報告以後"},{"start":1910.029,"end":1938.102,"text":"第一是報告辦理公職人員的罷免案從114年2月3號到114年2月19日為止本會受理立法委員及地方公職人員罷免案一共有64案其中立法委員罷免案是54案市長的罷免案有1案直轄市議員縣市議員罷免案有9案個案辦理的情形相如附表一請各位委員參閱"},{"start":1940.464,"end":1962.342,"text":"立法委員罷免案的這個結果投票否決的有31案不成立的有1案不予受理的有22案市長罷免案投票否決的有1案直轄市縣市議員罷免案投票否決的有1案不成立的有1案不予受理的有7案"},{"start":1963.423,"end":1990.971,"text":"第二是辦理一百一十四年全國性的公民投票一百一十四年全國性公民投票第二十一案在一百一十四年八月二十三日舉行投票並且在當天晚上八點完成開票統計的工作因有效同意票占投票人總數比例只有達到百分之二十一點七為達投票權人總額的四分之一"},{"start":1991.512,"end":1994.264,"text":"以上 所以投票的結果是不通過"},{"start":1996.55,"end":2026.03,"text":"第三報告的是辦理選務的宣導辦理全國性公民投票第21案選務宣導包括投票日的日期時間年滿18歲有公民投票權以及宣導投票應注意的禁止事項避免民眾因為觸法而受罰透過多元以及數位媒體的宣導直轄市縣市選舉委員會社攤宣導落實在地的宣導"},{"start":2026.87,"end":2048.898,"text":"令加強對新住民對原住民以及身心障礙者的宣導第四辦理全國性公民投票案第21案意見發表會全國性公民投票第21案意見發表會共舉辦了5場並且在114年8月7日起到同年的8月15日子辦理完略"},{"start":2050.218,"end":2076.583,"text":"第五報告督導辦理第十一屆立法委員及新竹市第十一屆市長的罷免說明會第十一屆立法委員罷免案及新竹市第十一屆市長的罷免案除台東縣立法委員罷免案領銜人及被罷免人雙方同意不辦理依法應與免辦之外其餘各罷免案都在罷免期間由各該直轄市縣市選舉委員會"},{"start":2079.144,"end":2080.769,"text":"為每一罷免案各舉辦一場的罷免說明會總計辦理了31場第六"},{"start":2086.297,"end":2108.22,"text":"是報告籌劃辦理電腦計票的作業電腦計票是由鄉鎮市區選務作業中心人員將投票報告表的資料輸入計票系統迅速完成會計各項網路安全以及系統的備援措施都是以最高規格來防護"},{"start":2109.361,"end":2113.867,"text":"本會在114年7月辦理55場的教育訓練以及114年8月辦理5次的電腦計票作業全國模擬演練並模擬一場狀況進行演練以立即時應變"},{"start":2127.364,"end":2144.901,"text":"第七是办理全国不分区及侨区国外国民立法委员递补的作业截至目前为止已经递补本件全国不分区及侨区国外国民立法委员三人递补的情形也请各位参阅副表二"},{"start":2145.862,"end":2161.99,"text":"第八是辦理直轄市縣市議員的締補作業截至目前為止已締補本屆直轄市縣市議員有14人締補情形相如副表3第九是受理全國性公民投票辦理的情形"},{"start":2163.931,"end":2178.46,"text":"114年迄今本會受理的全國性公民投票案件一共有四案都已經進入徵求連署的階段第十 全國性公民投票電子聯子系統使用的情形"},{"start":2179.381,"end":2197.621,"text":"全國性公民投票電子聯署系統在113年4月10日上線之後截至114年9月30日至已經有4件全國性的公民投票案使用全國性公民投票電子聯署系統來徵求聯署第11是公民投"},{"start":2198.522,"end":2215.222,"text":"公職人員罷免案電子連署系統整備的情形為了推動公職人員罷免案電子連署系統上限作業本會積極辦理系統功能的測試壓力的試驗網站弱點掃描以及滲透"},{"start":2216.924,"end":2231.418,"text":"測試等準備工作本會將是全國性公民投票電子聯署系統實際使用的情形評估公職人員罷免案電子聯署系統上限的相關事宜第十二是辦理選務幹部人員的講習"},{"start":2233.427,"end":2243.13,"text":"本會跟行政院人事行政總署公務人力發展學院南投縣區合辦114年選務幹部人員講習在5月到6月之間辦理了三期調訓的人數一共有119人第13點報告執行政黨連坐的裁罰本會從101年4月3日起到今"},{"start":2259.355,"end":2279.94,"text":"裁罰一共有223件裁罰金額累计达新台币1亿8726万5千元受连坐处罚政党受政党推荐候选人所犯罪名以及裁罚金额请各位参阅副表4跟5"},{"start":2281.089,"end":2299.25,"text":"第十四點報告 辦理選舉徵送的案件辦理選舉徵送案件目前上系數中的案件檢數 既有最高行政法院九件台北高等行政法院八件 台北地方法院有一件各該訴訟案件的進行 像如附表六跟七"},{"start":2300.512,"end":2330.115,"text":"第十五點 第十一屆第三會期內政委員會通過本會之臨時提案有三案辦理情形 詳如附表八最後報告結語本會秉持憲法保障民主法治以及人民參政的精神依法統籌辦理選舉罷免及公民投票等業務致力營造公平公正公開之政治參與環境全體同仁秉持依法行政的精神恪守中立"},{"start":2331.26,"end":2358.308,"text":"致力建構健全的政治參與環境並積極與各級選舉委員會以及直轄市縣市政府協力合作透過嚴謹辦理各項選務確保忠實反映人民意志落實主權在於直接民主的價值強化社會大眾對選務機關的信任以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝謝謝我們感謝李主委"},{"start":2359.465,"end":2367.513,"text":"我們現在來進行詢問 跟委員的詢問進行我們來做幾項宣告每位委員的發言時間分為五分鐘有必要的時候加兩分鐘 若不是分為五分鐘在這裡面"},{"start":2381.84,"end":2387.763,"text":"本組的會議我們又沒有要處理臨時提案請問各位委員有什麼意見嗎沒有意見在定期發言的時間我們定位10點半為止現在我們來進行詢問請定位第一位蘇朝慧委員詢問"},{"start":2417.013,"end":2422.422,"text":"好 感謝主席那我們請中選會主委 李主委主委委員好"},{"start":2430.492,"end":2456.611,"text":"主委好 那我想我們是今天是這個會期第一次這個進行質詢巡打那其實前陣子對中選會來講真的是非常辛苦剛剛聽您的報告洋洋灑灑十幾點真的是沒有看過這麼忙的中選會因為不只是選務那還有這個公投的部分其實也非常的多那在這裡先跟所有中選會還有全國的選務人員先說一聲辛苦了"},{"start":2457.431,"end":2469.418,"text":"謝謝委員鼓勵不過我想是這樣子啦既然台灣是民主的社會選舉選務都是我們日常會發生的狀況那我們就是藉著這樣一次次的選務來進行精進跟討論首先我想要請問的是齁這個 主委你有看過這張嗎你知道這張是什麼"},{"start":2478.341,"end":2497.473,"text":"這張啊這張叫做全國性公民投票案第21案公民投票公報這張你一定有看過這是21案那它的上一張是什麼上一張是17、18、19、20案的那一張四個案一起的那個公投對"},{"start":2500.574,"end":2507.56,"text":"來 主委我的問題是你知道這一張21案自己成為一張的這張公報跟17、18、19、20四案一張的那個公報有什麼不一樣的地方嗎後面如果有人可以代打的話我也滿樂見答案的不一樣的地方一定是很多那最基本的就是字數也不一樣件數也不一樣這個當然沒有問題啦但是如果教你這個實在是太難了"},{"start":2528.232,"end":2532.283,"text":"這兩個公報中選會有沒有任何人知道最主要的"},{"start":2534.215,"end":2558.889,"text":"我們這兩個公報都是參著社研院給我們的這個設計的概念是用一樣的方式在編排都沒有任何不合法不合理的地方但它真的有一個非常非常大的不同就是本次的這個第21案的公民投票公報上面它其實沒有政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書"},{"start":2560.373,"end":2579.152,"text":"他其實沒有所以這整份公報上面就只有主文然後理由書也就是提出方的理由書然後下面就是應注意事項主委你知道這一次的這個公民投票21案提出方是誰立法院嘛 對那17 18 19 20是誰"},{"start":2583.033,"end":2605.933,"text":"是民眾這樣提出方的不一樣導致了他其實適用法規的不同所以其實在這裡公民投票法第15條那其實可以看得很清楚如果是這個由剛剛就是說的有立法院行政院和總統在提出的這一些的公民投票案他其實不需要適用第9條至13條第17條第一項至第三款"},{"start":2609.116,"end":2626.812,"text":"好第17條第一項第三款及19條的規定而這個所謂17條第一項第三款是什麼呢你如果看到那個你剛剛也有螢幕嘛上面我有反紅字的這個部分就是第三項就是政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書他真的不一定要"},{"start":2627.712,"end":2654.401,"text":"所以你這張合不合法合不合情合理可以 OK合規的沒有問題但我們看到的東西是什麼我們看到的東西就變成只有單方面提出的意見書啊所以另外一邊的不贊成的狀況或者反對的方向或至少政府機關的理由畢竟這是一個針對重大政策的案件不管他贊成同意或者到什麼方向其實沒有耶我們沒有看到諸位你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":2657.306,"end":2674.355,"text":"關於公民投票我們當然是希望民眾能夠獲得正反方的衝突的資訊以便於他們做理智的決定那在一般人民的提案裡面會有政府立場的說明但是在立法院提案的部分是明文一語排除"},{"start":2683.92,"end":2694.076,"text":"但是雖然在公報上沒有政府官方的意見但是在我們所辦的公投的意見發表會上"},{"start":2695.802,"end":2716.887,"text":"有反方的團體 有政方的代表反方的團體裡面也相當成分的反映了政府部門對於公投議題的意見所以還是有一部分的管道可以讓民眾接受到雙方的訊息成儒主委你說也有一部分的管道可以了解政府的立場"},{"start":2717.847,"end":2743.652,"text":"好所以這是一部分但是在這一張上面每個人手上都有的這張上面其實就是沒有好那然後如果你講你如果細讀我們的公投法這樣文字下來其實它也沒有一定不可以寫上去啊所以這要寫還是不寫這個主委我覺得這個就有討論的空間啦甚至是如果大家覺得不管哪一案哪一種都應該要有政府立場的表述"},{"start":2744.252,"end":2755.556,"text":"那我們就可以回過頭來看看這一條法規是不是有修改的必要或可能這個我是見請嚴議我也沒有說今天就一定要怎麼處理所以這是第一條那第二條的話其實"},{"start":2760.037,"end":2780.424,"text":"主委我再跟您請教的是剛剛我們說其實現在公投法規定全國性公民投票的提出方式現在就有四種公民連署行政院提案立法院提案和總統交付主委您現在來看我們這一次經過的是我們台灣史上第一次由立法院提出的公民投票是"},{"start":2781.764,"end":2806.062,"text":"好那他有什麼不一樣你會不會發現其實我們來看我們完全就是層次拉高來看公投法當時他最重要的立法精神第一條他就是寫我們是為了要讓直接民權嘛依憲法主權在民的原則為確保國民直接民權之行使特制定本法什麼是直接民權是我們直接去投票人民直接去投票叫做直接民權嘛"},{"start":2806.983,"end":2832.553,"text":"那你立法院其實本來就已經是間接民權的狀況了好可是你今天讓立法院可以去推動去提出這個公民投票案的時候這個跟公民投票的精神是不是一致其實我覺得這就很值得討論啊更何況是在由立法院這個間接民權單位來提出公民投票案的時候他的提出程序我們現在事後來看其實比公"},{"start":2835.617,"end":2838.985,"text":"以公民去提案公民提案的"},{"start":2840.414,"end":2868.827,"text":"簡便度難易度其實少很多其實少很多這樣合理嗎這也是一個問號謝謝委員公民投票公民提案的公民投票它是範圍包括有法律案的創制覆決有重大政策的創制覆決但是在立法院所提的案子裡面因為它本身就是立法機關所以立法原則的創制法律案的覆決"},{"start":2869.727,"end":2886.479,"text":"他是不能提的他只能夠就重大政策立法院因為他也相當代表了民意所以就民意重大政策的部分來提出公民投票的案子榮獲有這個需要的空間"},{"start":2887.608,"end":2904.708,"text":"我們回去片查當年的立法理由啦其實並沒有像這個主委您現在說的這麼清楚那我覺得要或不要當然都可以各自有立場只是當我們依照我們制定的法規實際執行了一次之後其實就剛剛的不管是"},{"start":2905.208,"end":2928.619,"text":"我們可以提出的項目內容也就是剛剛的其實立法已經不可以提了是只有提政策的這一端還有接下來的程序提案的程序呈案的程序等等到底要到什麼程度我覺得其實這一次經過了立法院提案的這麼龐大規模的公民投票我們是可以來考慮一下這個是不是日後就公民投票案"},{"start":2929.739,"end":2948.67,"text":"有精進的空間這是我想在這次我們花了這麼大的力氣進行了這麼大的一場公民投票之後那成效如何這個提供中選會參考啦我也希望有看到中選會有看到就本案的檢討報告這是我們的期待啦謝謝委員指教好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝蘇喬惠委員我們將張志倫委員執行"},{"start":2965.792,"end":2972.485,"text":"好各位委員主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請李靜友主委加主委"},{"start":2979.441,"end":3007.261,"text":"主委早主委好 自從您在這個108年6月3號您的這個中選會主委就職啊到現在已經7年多了6年多6年7年了啦6年6年了嘛好OK那依照這個法律規定您的任期是到今年的11月3號是的是那基本上來講依照法律規定這個"},{"start":3008.892,"end":3027.543,"text":"應該要在中選會的各個委員任期滿三個月要辦理提名作業可是我們現在看到行政院到目前為止還沒有提出新的中選會委員的名單我們現在很擔心的是說中選會現在總共有十名委員"},{"start":3028.263,"end":3048.405,"text":"那包含您在內有六位委員的任期會在11月3號屆期期滿那現在行政院的發言人有說在9月2號有說就是在我們立法院開議以後要將中選會的同意權案送到立法院來做審議那請問一下就主委這邊你有收到消息什麼時候會送進來嗎"},{"start":3050.598,"end":3057.69,"text":"這個提名的人選這是屬於行政院的權限那中選會在這部分並沒有任何的訊息"},{"start":3059.434,"end":3085.436,"text":"那主委你不會擔心嗎現在10名已經有6名已經快要到期了我們是很擔心因為這個選務不能夠中斷那尤其明年的年底是要辦理地方公職人員選舉有很多選舉的前置作業一些這個應辦事項的期程的規劃都必須要在明年的年初就必須做預為規劃了"},{"start":3086.937,"end":3100.932,"text":"那這個規劃的事項有很多都是必須經過我們委員會的決議才能夠定案那委員會的決議你開會有一定的人數的門檻我先請教一下如果這六名的委員到最後如果沒有送進來沒有這個"},{"start":3103.424,"end":3127.903,"text":"通過的話那中選會有辦法運作嗎我們是不希望看到這種狀況但是如果這種狀況發生的話真的是會使中選會的這個業務會陷於停頓所以在這邊拜託主委要跟行政院拜託因為10月份還有非常多的連假而且連假有些是在禮拜五的連假那這樣的話如果來不及送到立法院或者是送進來人選"},{"start":3129.389,"end":3148.406,"text":"這個立法院如果有意見的話是沒有辦法去做更改如果更改的話或是有意見的話現在已經有超過半數是已經屆滿的一個狀況所以要拜託主委這邊是不是也要跟行政院拜託一下我們了解行政院有非常積極重視這個問題所以在積極尋覓適當的人選再問一個問題那主委你有推薦的人選嗎"},{"start":3152.25,"end":3180.661,"text":"因為我知道你已經兩屆任滿了你有推薦新的中選會主委的沒有沒有我們尊重行政院長的提名權好 謝謝那岳主委你也即將期滿在這邊先感謝你謝謝 謝謝委員對於選務的支持好 那第二個我還是要跟你請教就是有關於中選會在這次歷史上第一次我們看到整個台灣史上歷史上的一個大罷免"},{"start":3181.491,"end":3209.408,"text":"這個有32比0的這個一個狀況所以我還是要跟主委報告就是中選會在不管是選舉罷免是在選務機關是負責非常重要的職責那我這次在大罷免結束我個人有認為主要還是這個大罷免的這樣的狀況造成社會的分裂而其實是整個連署期間真的是太長了造成人民的對立有時候在街頭都看到人民跟人民互相針對一些不同的意見有紛爭"},{"start":3211.065,"end":3229.334,"text":"過去我們常說台灣最免的風景是人可是這個大罷免就會造成人民的對立跟撕裂的一個狀況我個人本席個人覺得就是連署的期間過長當時我有請教過你說未滿一年不得罷免的這樣子的一個規定當時我們發現當然很多的民眾他們會認為說"},{"start":3234.043,"end":3253.804,"text":"就是在那個立委任期剛滿的時候就已經開始有開始發起連署事實上有連署的這樣的一個我認為是漏洞的一個問題那之前主委的回覆給我說是法無明文規定 中選會管不到那現在大罷免已經結束了那我想要請問主委您的看法還是一樣嗎"},{"start":3255.007,"end":3280.366,"text":"因為法律條文的規定是未滿一年不得提出不得提出所謂提出它是一個具體的動作就是向我們中選會來提出罷免的案子你有沒有覺得我們相關現在的法律的確是有一些疏漏的地方是可以來做調整的或者是你在解釋上是不是可以不要造成人民對立撕裂那麼嚴重"},{"start":3281.834,"end":3298.16,"text":"這個恐怕不是中選會能夠去擔起您個人的意見我個人的意見是根據法律的規定我們能夠依法行政把這個選務能夠穩定的辦好這是我們的責任至於像侏儒"},{"start":3298.94,"end":3327.129,"text":"所謂的大罷免這個高度政治性的一個對立的狀況我們選務人員一定要嚴守中立而不能夠隨意的去評論我要跟主委報告這個意思就是說在我們的選舉投票選舉的時候是有很明確的法律規定什麼時候能做什麼事情都非常清楚可是罷免的這個部分就是很沒有很明確的一些什麼時候到底能做什麼事情導致大家各自解讀都不一樣所以我今天才趁主委"},{"start":3327.677,"end":3338.98,"text":"在的時候來自己請教那看起來主委還是沒有很明確的一個想法當然你們在預算書裡面是寫說實務上因為不知道有沒有人在連署所以很難查核"},{"start":3339.588,"end":3365.903,"text":"所以就是說跟你現在講的方式其實是有一點點的落差啦所以我才想說所謂預算書上面的這個說法應該是指的如果你用法律條文來限制在一年以前不得用任何的方式來做連署如果是這樣子的話那查核有困難但是就目前的法律條文的規定根本我們也沒有權利去查核"},{"start":3366.343,"end":3393.356,"text":"因為那是屬於言論自由行動自由的一個範圍好 所以主委現在意思還是法無明文規定所以就是大家自由新政是好 謝謝第三個我要請教有關於您上任來您推的一直在推的一個非常重要有關於人民行使權利就是電子連署的一個部分在去年上線了以後其實現在的使用的一個狀況其實不是非常的熱絡"},{"start":3395.359,"end":3411.242,"text":"現在我們是有公投的電子連署已經上線了可是人家我們一直說不管是公投連署跟你最近在我們的報告裡面有寫我們的罷免系統的部分還沒有上線就你而言你覺得什麼時候會上線"},{"start":3412.134,"end":3441.327,"text":"我們已經是建制完成了但是因為這個牽涉的這個關係比較重大所以我們是很期待一旦上線的話不能夠出任何的差錯所以現在公投已經是上線了我們希望看公投上線之後實際運作的這個狀況有沒有什麼地方是需要再去加強的那我們作為這個罷免上線的一個參考"},{"start":3442.466,"end":3457.655,"text":"好謝謝那最後一個問題那就請教其實我在今天看到你的報告書裡面沒有提到就是有關於不在籍投票的一個部分那不在籍投票因為其實我相信很多民眾就是行使投票的一個權利那就目前我本席有所了解只有選務人員"},{"start":3458.959,"end":3474.637,"text":"可以做不在籍投票的一個部分那就很多本席的我們很多的委員都有提到說有關於原住民或是警消其他的像警消一些老師這樣的公務人員有沒有機會未來來推不在籍投票請問主委你的意見是什麼"},{"start":3475.813,"end":3497.945,"text":"公民投票的部分全國性公民投票的不在籍投票的草案我們已經第二度送到立法院來了我們是採取的移轉投票的方式移轉投票的話它並沒有限制什麼樣子的類別大家都可以有投票選人的國民就可以去申請"},{"start":3499.085,"end":3508.694,"text":"所以這部分應該沒有問題至於這個選舉的部分這個是涉涉到這個內政部他們的權責這個我們也尊重內政部他們的規劃好那好謝謝主委啊那謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝張志倫委員執行和現在張宏祿委員執行"},{"start":3535.598,"end":3554.27,"text":"我請主委加主委主委我不知道最近有沒有注意到一則新聞法國的新總理勒柯"},{"start":3555.482,"end":3568.658,"text":"兒女法國他們的之前新總理勒科兒女她又辭職了她不到一個月的時間辭職了我不知道朱委有沒有注意到這個新聞我看到新聞報導"},{"start":3570.802,"end":3585.274,"text":"其實法國跟我們台灣的政治制度上很多人把它拿來相提並論有點類似又不全然法國總統是絕對多數決"},{"start":3592.876,"end":3617.705,"text":"法國總統選舉是是絕對多數決兩輪不一定兩輪他如果第一輪他就過半了那當然所以在這個學習來講他應該是絕對的多數決一定要過半絕對多數是不是這樣是但法國的總統他也有解散國會的權力"},{"start":3620.382,"end":3641.559,"text":"對不對 是對 它是可以解散國會現在台灣有很多人在說台灣的總統選舉要不要兩輪制我不知道主委有沒有聽到這個看到這個新聞最近也看到媒體上有部分的討論我個人是覺得我們先從法理上來講我們的總統選舉"},{"start":3647.103,"end":3672.368,"text":"宪法是不是有明文规定总统选举该如何选举宪法中修条文第二条第一项有明文的规定我们是采取的一轮相对多数字没错嘛上面就白纸黑字有写所以如果要改变这一个总统的选举制度你认为要不要修宪"},{"start":3674.008,"end":3689.729,"text":"我想這個解釋上應該是沒什麼問題因為憲法的明文規定在那個地方你不能夠根據違反憲法的規定直接從這個總統副總統選罷法去修改這樣是跟憲法的規定有違的"},{"start":3690.475,"end":3707.924,"text":"沒錯嘛你的看法跟我的看法是一樣的那反過來如果說這種單一首長制如果縣市首長要改成兩輪絕對多數要是不是不用修憲了"},{"start":3712.338,"end":3728.911,"text":"縣市首長的部分憲法並沒有明文規定所以這個如果是在一般的公職人員選罷法裡面有相關的規定的話那我們就按照這個規定來執行沒有錯嘛 主委所以你的看法跟我是"},{"start":3730.091,"end":3751.668,"text":"比較相近這是就執行面來講至於政策面是不是有這個有沒有這個必要不不不 主委我不認為這叫就執行面這是法理面我剛剛就跟你講這都是法律的規定就法理的部分就政策的部分就政治的部分這部分我們是沒有評論"},{"start":3753.959,"end":3759.054,"text":"因為我們中選會其實是一個選政的單位而已我們選務 我們主要辦理選務"},{"start":3761.167,"end":3789.603,"text":"對啦 選政選務其實分開所以我今天問你這個問題我只是覺得說這個東西其實也要讓全國民眾知道就是說關於總統的選舉方式你總統副總統選舉罷免法是規定他的執行面他的選務他的怎麼樣去做而已吧對不對 是不是這樣基本的精神還是必須要符合憲法的規定"},{"start":3791.544,"end":3816.839,"text":"所以我們的總統、副總統選舉罷免法裡面它規定的大部分就是如何去選舉然後選務什麼什麼然後一些相關的規定而已吧所以如果要二輪制我認為是要修憲跟縣市州長你要去修改它變成二輪制這個是不同的層級我不知道主委你的看法"},{"start":3817.626,"end":3844.996,"text":"我同意是不同的層級對嘛所以我覺得這個二輪制有好有壞但我個人認為現在台灣我比較擔心的是其實在國外很多二輪制的投票到第二輪變成換票聯盟然後交易聯盟我不知道主委有沒有看過這些相關的報導"},{"start":3846.584,"end":3875.963,"text":"那看過對啊在二輪的時候就互相利益交換我跟你換部長我跟你換什麼很多都是這樣我覺得在台灣我覺得第一個台灣面積小那我們的人口數也才2300多萬人在現在做這個事情我個人認為是要值得考量的我不知道主委你的看法我們會傾聽各界不同的聲音"},{"start":3878.037,"end":3899.778,"text":"其實主委我必須要跟你說有沒有改有沒有什麼的其實跟你們中選會也沒有任何的你可以去做決定你可以去那個因為你只是人家怎麼規定你怎麼做而已如果是修憲的話我們還要辦公民複決"},{"start":3901.629,"end":3925.727,"text":"對 你就是那些執行面嘛 對不對所以我今天特別問你這個也不是找你麻煩我只是會覺得說這個東西要讓大家知道這已經到修憲的程度了這不是一般修法啦主要的目的是在這裡啦我不知道主委你的看法是不是如此"},{"start":3926.192,"end":3938.24,"text":"我想這個是一個非常牽涉到國家的這個體制非常重要的一個議題啦全民都應該會關心好好謝謝主委好謝謝委員謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員我們請紐西頓委員質詢謝謝主席李主委有請請主委"},{"start":3963.39,"end":3986.304,"text":"主委早安剛剛你講說憲法裡面有明文規定我們的總統選擇是一輪相對多數決是這樣嗎我的理解憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定第二條第一項怎麼寫的第二條第一項它是我整個念出來總統副總統候選人應聯名登記選票上同一組圈選以得票最多一組為當選對不對"},{"start":3988.035,"end":4005.377,"text":"那我們大部分在討論說法律的修正會不會抵觸憲法對不對我們在討論憲政爭議的時候當然講我的法律會不會抵觸憲法就是跟憲法走向相悖的這樣一個概念的時候這如果是二輪要求過半才能當選多一個門檻的時候他會不會是選票上面最多數的一組"},{"start":4006.567,"end":4032.195,"text":"你聽得懂我的意思嗎對不起就是說如果今天是二輪投票或者是說一輪投票就要當選他就要得到過半的票數如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數他會不是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組會不會一定會嘛我選總統我拿過半的票我就是一定會比其他人多對不對那是不是符合憲法徵求條文得票最多的一組為當選那請問有抵觸還是沒有抵觸"},{"start":4037.441,"end":4064.072,"text":"我先來憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求並沒有要求你得票對 你講得很好他並沒有要求一定要這樣對不對但是當你是這樣的時候你符不符合憲法的規定憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選對吧"},{"start":4066.072,"end":4083.025,"text":"那當超過50%的門檻對不對它也是最多數相對多數它也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為法律因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻"},{"start":4085.899,"end":4101.654,"text":"我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說它違反了憲法規定的方向那當然到這個東西就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情它真的有抵觸憲法嗎它實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管它有沒有超過絕對多數它都是"},{"start":4107.64,"end":4134.466,"text":"得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有瞭解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎"},{"start":4136.144,"end":4152.475,"text":"這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前世界上40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字"},{"start":4154.256,"end":4175.98,"text":"今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛遭致很多的憲政僵局很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎"},{"start":4177.284,"end":4202.412,"text":"我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來它的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力"},{"start":4202.872,"end":4214.16,"text":"沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家都談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制"},{"start":4214.622,"end":4241.615,"text":"但沒關係這個題目反彈剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投覆決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛"},{"start":4242.474,"end":4270.105,"text":"那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志倫委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候是花了400多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花200多萬"},{"start":4271.458,"end":4296.52,"text":"200多萬 花了這麼多錢 效果怎麼樣目前已經上線 有試案正在使用正在使用嘛 那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是 你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解 但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制 變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到 因為我們是一個獨立機關 所以要等"},{"start":4297.335,"end":4326.93,"text":"那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想"},{"start":4327.577,"end":4355.172,"text":"那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討他難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說他為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛"},{"start":4355.612,"end":4374.579,"text":"我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了"},{"start":4375.939,"end":4390.258,"text":"我們就不方便再去做這個工作因為這個會被誤解會被誤讀為這個本性也不是不能理解因為其實新聞大概其實都有露出就是說他們還是採取傳統的要去設立連署站等等那這些東西其實"},{"start":4390.979,"end":4412.08,"text":"到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署"},{"start":4414.471,"end":4428.705,"text":"你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了謝謝感謝紐西田委員質詢我們請麥正委員"},{"start":4443.868,"end":4447.93,"text":"好有請中選會主委安江主委委員好好主席各位同仁大家好首先感謝我很不是感謝啦很感嘆我們馬太安就是那個"},{"start":4473.78,"end":4488.491,"text":"安瑟湖 玉柳 窺提花蓮的灌糊箱造成慘重的災情到現在已經兩個星期了災區還有很多地方需要救災"},{"start":4490.13,"end":4503.926,"text":"當地救災的災民需要但是現在的一團亂 不知道你們有沒有到現場但是呢 煉射湖的紅色警戒還沒有解除"},{"start":4505.575,"end":4528.132,"text":"要不要建村 還有很多問題大家都感到就是今天都無所謂但是我們中央災害應變中心指揮官內政部是收到我們的 在我們這邊內政委員會的監督主要的單位"},{"start":4529.073,"end":4546.378,"text":"但是呢第一天上班卻沒有看到這個議題的安排內政部的業務報告但是呢反而現在優先排序的是中選會現在選務比救災更重要嗎是嗎還有我們的內政部長還在那邊呵呵呵呵是磨笑的聲音還是苦笑"},{"start":4558.697,"end":4580.183,"text":"大家來還是我們人民更苦所以我們今天就是來找你來問我也不知道是什麼原因還是選後來檢討罷免後來檢討所以我們回到我們今天的主題我們要請教一下我們李主委"},{"start":4581.246,"end":4601.348,"text":"我們你對公投綁大選的看法因為你在媒體說為了避免2018年的選務亂象再次重演傷害民主還是傾向維持現在的制度 對嗎"},{"start":4603.665,"end":4627.541,"text":"是的 我們正在選務機關的立場2018年的選務的亂象大家記憶猶新而且是非常沉痛的一個記憶也因此在2021年的四大公投裡面有一個公投就是又要把這個公投跟大選要綁在一起但是那個公投案並沒有通過"},{"start":4628.422,"end":4644.918,"text":"沒有通過的意義就是表示說人民還是很在乎並不支持這樣子的一種做法那現在各種條件是不是有所改變是不是到了要再重新檢討的一個程度我們認為大家必須要深思但是問題選務的問題我們是要讓一個選務"},{"start":4650.023,"end":4674.336,"text":"委員會來去處理吧不是在2018年到現在還在說這個問題所以我們可以在檢討後做不一樣的改進措施所以這個亂象完全沒有辦法改善嗎還有我們投票的目的就是變民還是因為便宜你行事"},{"start":4675.339,"end":4680.001,"text":"就好這樣子的話你覺得說在2018年現在你還要拿出來再去檢這樣子是真的是傷害人民嗎選務的考量是其中之一但是並不是全部對但是我們你曉得嘛你曉得我們歷年在公投的就是說我們的票率是多少嗎你看"},{"start":4699.807,"end":4709.473,"text":"我們在公投的時候在公投法在2003年的就是年底立法在2004年年底正式實施全國性的公投第一到第二的兩個案件在2004年與總統選舉同日選舉投票率逾45%2028年我們也是全國性公投"},{"start":4729.486,"end":4732.771,"text":"與立委選舉同日執行我們的投票率就是26%還有在2008年同年我們叫五到六案全國性公投我們也與總統一起執行"},{"start":4744.449,"end":4764.74,"text":"投票率也過了35%在2018年我們也是全國性公投我們在到從第七到第十六屆以九合一地方選舉也同日執行十項公投裡面我們投票率就是54"},{"start":4768.082,"end":4792.217,"text":"1%到55.89%之間在2021年也是我們的17到20案跟我們的公投脫鉤後呢單獨公投投票率也是11%左右今年剛結束的河山研議公投投票率僅得29.53%"},{"start":4794.939,"end":4811.629,"text":"越來越低請問我們的主委你覺得投票率低是傷害民主還是實踐憲法主權在還是我們民主的表現"},{"start":4812.844,"end":4834.02,"text":"投不投票这是公民的自由那一个公投案能不能够吸引一个公投案能不能够让选民愿意站出来来表示他的意见你要看选民对于这个公投的议题他是否感到必要"},{"start":4834.58,"end":4861.519,"text":"他是否有兴趣是否跟他的生活有密切的关系所以不能够把这个问题跟单纯的跟选举绑在一起来看这是第一点第二点公投跟选举绑在一起会混乱了这个投票的一个焦点因为选举的议题你把人民都是傻的什么混乱"},{"start":4862.219,"end":4889.655,"text":"现在就是你们的工作混乱你们的工作要懂得怎么样去排序怎么解决问题你把所有的事丢给人民什么混乱没有什么叫做混乱是安排我们的制度跟程序如果你说这样子的混乱的话我再问你历年来的公投选务花费是多少"},{"start":4890.615,"end":4893.938,"text":"我們要是要怎麼樣去為我們的國家最近這一次立法院送過來的案子就是河山炎疫的問題這個案子就花了11億4千萬所以你們就是沒有綁在一起才要亂花錢也達到這樣子的我們為我們的國家要去省錢要去"},{"start":4913.226,"end":4922.137,"text":"要達到的工作效率但是你沒有解決工作效率你還要把國家的錢來去花費對啊我就問你說公投選務花費多少嘛但是我要問你這個問題公投選務現在歷年來花費了是多少"},{"start":4931.648,"end":4938.015,"text":"历年那太久了而且太久了所以你开情的面连眼睛都不眨一下我们国家的钱都是纳税的钱你要的范围来我跟你讲你没有在我们根据你的公文再发函回给你"},{"start":4946.804,"end":4951.411,"text":"我現在告訴你啦我們選我們呢 據我們的中選會就是在向媒體說2018年我們的公投花費15億當時公投案雖然是有死案"},{"start":4962.388,"end":4987.768,"text":"但因為跟選舉綁在一起估計一案約1.5億在2021年我們的與大選脫鉤後呢四個案公投需要費用就是花了13億多就是估計當次獨立進行的公投每一案平均花費就是3億多啦"},{"start":4989.235,"end":5009.157,"text":"所以今年我們核三原液討入我們的公投需要的就是花費已經11億所以不可否認的是說公投合併全國的大選才能實踐民主又兼顧節省的成本"},{"start":5009.717,"end":5013.758,"text":"我們是要跟你講的是說我們為了國家你們的工作也要說要去要預算的成本還有效率我們講的是這個所以呢我們希望大家來支持我們的台灣民眾黨黨團有鑑於就是現行公民投票的舉行"},{"start":5034.403,"end":5057.111,"text":"于全国性的选举脱钩严重阻碍人民行使直接的民权还有为了打破鸟笼的公投实践我们的宪法主权在民之原则我们希望我们的公投公民投票法第23条"},{"start":5059.332,"end":5075.736,"text":"文裡面的修正草案民定主管機構對於公民投票案公告成立後一個月起以六個月內進行公民投票該期間內有全國性的選舉時應該"},{"start":5078.897,"end":5098.766,"text":"就是该选举同日举行我们会努力来推动修法通过我们希望的是这样才我们要去评估还有我们要的人力物力我们都要去评估我们人民要照我们政府的规定"},{"start":5101.271,"end":5106.936,"text":"但是我們要花那麼多錢還有就是辦會那麼多人力因為時間的關係我們主席已經站出來了已經站起來了給一句第一句話第一句話就是委員剛剛所做的這些論述"},{"start":5119.548,"end":5127.111,"text":"我覺得還有許多許多的盲點如果你覺得是盲點 你要來去說明時間到了好不好 會後再跟你回答來會後再回答我們感謝麥政委員的執行 我們家徐政委員執行"},{"start":5149.254,"end":5153.146,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請中選會李主委南京上主委"},{"start":5158.274,"end":5176.827,"text":"委員好主委好主委我想請教您您的任期是到什麼時候11月3號 全部到這個月您的任期到11月3號我想依照中選會的組織法第3條委員的任期是4年您已經連任一次所以到11月3號就是您會卸任的時間"},{"start":5179.509,"end":5206.041,"text":"那當然依照我們這個中選會的組織法也有提出行政院長因為任滿期前三個月提名新任委員這個並補題出缺那中選會現在有十位委員因為有一位委員之前就已經請辭了那其中六位都跟您一樣會在11月3號任期屆滿那請問一下行政院到現在有提名新任的委員嗎"},{"start":5207.542,"end":5228.71,"text":"我們知道行政院他們很積極在尋找適當的人選什麼時候可以提出來我想也會考慮到我們選務的運作所以我們也期待這個案子所以就是還沒嗎他們很積極在尋找適當的人選所以說依照我們中選會的組織法的話"},{"start":5230.956,"end":5251.221,"text":"委員任滿三個月前也就是8月3號應該就要提出了但到現在都還沒提出的原因您剛說是為了要積極的尋找那如果他到了12月還尋找不到的話那請問這中間的話您11月3號就卸任那12月他如果還找不到的話那請問一下中選會要怎麼來運作"},{"start":5252.541,"end":5278.859,"text":"我們期待這種情形不會發生那這個可能行政跟立法兩院之間大家那行政院到現在都還沒有提出是不是為了整個國家民主政治的能夠這個完整的運作大家能夠互相合作讓這個人事案所以對於國家的民主運作能夠完善的話應該是要在8月3號之前就要提出嘛"},{"start":5279.417,"end":5298.169,"text":"但現在都還沒有提出所以說當然今天您也做了一個今天的報告那接下來我們要審中選會的預算那請問一下您現在所提的報告跟未來新任的主委上來之後如果你們的目標不一致的話那今天的報告算數嗎"},{"start":5300.038,"end":5313.893,"text":"今天的報告是我在主委的這個任期裡面按照大院所指示的我們所提出的有關業務方面的報告就大大的這個方向所提出的一些說明"},{"start":5314.794,"end":5340.911,"text":"我想这样子的一个方向也是经过现在有效的委员会大家所做成的这个决议对 但是有六位就是马上要到任了有六位都跟您一样11月3号也就是说只剩四位有没有办法能够代表未来的委员会他如果依照这个合法的方式能够做一些政策的调整依照合法的方式的话我也想请教一下那个李主委"},{"start":5341.531,"end":5351.42,"text":"就是依這個中選會的組織法任滿這個前三個月應該要提名這個新任的委員那這個到底屬於強制的義務還是努力的義務"},{"start":5353.519,"end":5381.849,"text":"这个应该有一些空间事实上现在是还没有提出来所以这样行政院算违法吗我不认为它是违法那应该是怎样我不认为它是违法但是衔接的问题我想行政院那请问一下中选会有发函给行政院要求他应该要立即提出人选吗这个是行政院长的直言我的意思是说中选会有没有发函提醒院长"},{"start":5383.116,"end":5406.429,"text":"應該要在這個8月3號之前提出其實院裡面相當了解這種狀況那你們有發函提醒他們嗎我們不會發函你們不會發函所以院裡相當了解可是就是不提出那所以我可不可以理解成在8月3號之前沒有提出是因為當時有這個726跟823的這個公投的這個我們罷免的這個案子所以他在當時不提出可不可以理解成這樣"},{"start":5407.926,"end":5425.765,"text":"這個我們不理評論這是我的理解啦但是我認為到現在還沒有提出的話應該要積極的提醒行政院應該是要在8月3號之前就要提出那另外呢再想請教一下這個李主委就是我們依照公職員選舉罷免法第35條跟37條的規定"},{"start":5429.469,"end":5449.08,"text":"立法委員的選舉區應該每十年檢討一次並在本屆任期前兩年兩個月的人口統計為準那我會請教您這個就是最近我們有在媒體報導看到說好像會提早來檢討這個選區的變更那想請教李主委有沒有這回事"},{"start":5451.128,"end":5470.48,"text":"这个我们跟内政部之间大家有交换过意见那可能现在的共识是在116年的时候我们会来进行检讨116年会进行检讨因为10年检讨一次第一次是96年96年第7任对"},{"start":5473.201,"end":5492.209,"text":"第七屆再上一次是106年所以下一次是所以你們現在會依表定的時間就是106年的11月左右要提出這個當時任期前兩年兩個月的人口數所以是依表定的目前的2027年的時間是嗎"},{"start":5497.455,"end":5508.069,"text":"116年我們會開始啟動檢討因為上一次是106年是這樣所以還是會依照表定的時間沒有錯那所以呢依照這樣子的話可能就是會在2027年啟動檢討然後在20大概三"},{"start":5512.574,"end":5530.571,"text":"2029年11月应该适用到第13届对就是等于2032年那一届现在11届12届13届就是2032年的届所以目前你们大概还是依照我们的法律规定的我们按照既定的行程法定的行程就10年检讨一次谢谢李主委"},{"start":5530.831,"end":5550.649,"text":"然後最後要請教您的就是這個公投的部分因為其實現在很多的民眾都希望能夠公投綁大選那尤其我們看到在這個我們在新國會智庫也有做一個民調就是有高達66.3%的民眾是支持要公投綁大選當然不外乎就希望能夠"},{"start":5552.01,"end":5573.866,"text":"節省我們的公帑能夠節省我們的選務的作業經費尤其是今年的一岸的公投綁大選就公投和三研議就花了10億多那如果能夠在跟大選綁在一起的話這筆錢勢必一定能夠節省很多所以現在大概大家都在探討這樣的一個事件那當然剛剛我有聽到主委在講說2018年的這個公投延宕造成我們整個的這個因為選務"},{"start":5580.984,"end":5602.101,"text":"的工作会延长时间所以建议不绑大选可是事实上有43.2%的民众认为是中选会没有规划周延才会导致当年的一个乱象所以这个部分的话我觉得可能我们中选会要好好的来检讨一下既然民意所趋是公投绑大选"},{"start":5603.001,"end":5614.032,"text":"應該來好好的檢討是不是要恢復過去這樣尤其我們剛剛也可以看到這個投票率你看我們以往如果公投綁大選大概都可以到五成五以上"},{"start":5614.554,"end":5643.106,"text":"但這一次河山研議的這個公投在8月23提出的這個它的投票率在29.53那也就是說未來如果公投不綁大選事實上公投案要成案其實相對的都非常的不容易事實也是這樣所以說為什麼民眾期待是能夠公投綁大選第一個能夠充分的展現民意第二個也能夠節省公帑節省不必要的浪費那這是我想這是民眾大家普遍的一個"},{"start":5643.866,"end":5667.895,"text":"想法那當然在這邊因為時間的關係那我也請主委要好好的演你這個公投綁大選如果說民意的話民意調查固然可以參考但是正式的公民投票在2021年的這個公投綁大選的公民投票他是沒有通過的那這個民意應該是更清楚就是那當時有公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":5670.083,"end":5675.968,"text":"就是公投沒有過嘛公投有沒有綁大選就沒有嘛當然不會過如果公投綁大選這個提案就一定會過當時是因為公投沒有綁大選所以他的投票率才41%當然不會過啊大家痛在心裡那個心都在痛主委我覺得你倒果為因啦所以這個部分我覺得公投綁大選如果"},{"start":5690.521,"end":5704.866,"text":"可以好好的充分展現民意才是民眾所需求的我站在選務機關的立場我要代表我全國的選務同仁他們不願意再蒙受那麼大的一個災難我站在人民的立場我代表全國人民告訴您"},{"start":5705.726,"end":5715.269,"text":"人民希望的是公投綁大選除了選務人員的心聲之外就是公投跟大選之間的渾咬渾咬也是傷害了也是傷害了人民對於公投的一個正當的意見表達謝謝徐政委員接下來我們請王美惠召委謝謝"},{"start":5734.557,"end":5737.419,"text":"主席,我們請李主委來,有請李主委主委,你好你知道,我聽到我們的董事會說是怎麼擺我們的業務是不是內政的比你們的業務還要重要"},{"start":5761.468,"end":5768.978,"text":"在這裡我要提醒一件事因為我們內政部長朱花蕾發生後"},{"start":5770.612,"end":5776.457,"text":"他還要走來走去要怎麼讓花蓮的災害更加嚴重因為今天你如果說來內政的業務報告的時候是很多人要來也沒有辦法去開會也沒有辦法去花蓮到三天我覺得大家聽到花蓮發聲"},{"start":5796.109,"end":5815.584,"text":"這件事的時候我相信所有的百姓所有我的董事跟我們中央政府大家都非常感激不是今天沒有關心花蓮我們再來辦這個選舉的日子你如果看花蓮發生的時候沒有分開大家的關心我覺得"},{"start":5825.834,"end":5827.756,"text":"要憑良心說 能夠看人救災奉便我們為了什麼要亂七八糟 叫他們來這裡"},{"start":5839.168,"end":5864.238,"text":"對於召委的這樣苦心的安排我們是非常的感動那現在全國不管是各級政府不管是民間大家全力在投入到這個花蓮的救災裡面整個的內閣團隊幾乎都是全部動員了所以這個時候讓更多的人讓更多的資源能夠到災區去這個是大家的一個共識"},{"start":5865.56,"end":5880.265,"text":"因為我相信咱們在座的我的姐姐同事都會靠電話給寶丁寶丁都說我現在要開會 跟我現在要做什麼他不是英雄 為了我 我想的事他是比任何人 還合金他知道我聽到這樣的事 我真的坐在地上我說 人敢愛恨你 沒理性"},{"start":5894.687,"end":5896.268,"text":"講這個外公的出處來 主委在這裡本身要幫你探討你的臨時你的臨時在11月13日在剛才你講的中間出沒一個月不一定兩天白天的時候你就已經"},{"start":5915.134,"end":5926.703,"text":"倒喝嘛 再見我希望今天跟你討論的可以雖然你們這個有夠弱沒夠弱也不知道但問題的存在我們要怎麼去處理像剛才你回答的你們裡面有很緊張的要借領交還要拿的時候未來的美女要選舉"},{"start":5945.276,"end":5962.346,"text":"這樣會怎樣通常啦 通常如果年底要選舉我們大概在年初的時候就必須要去決定投票的一期投票的一期決定後之前之前有很多丟臉的慷慨很多說話主委 現在我就是跟你說喔你老公的11位妻子 還弄你媽啦11位妻子 還過沒一個月"},{"start":5972.512,"end":5974.034,"text":"就185年了啦 185年的年頭就要決定每年底選舉的日期啦再來重重 大家都會覺得選舉委員會跟中選委選舉幾個月沒贏千萬大家不要這樣想"},{"start":5995.834,"end":6002.9,"text":"選舉委員會和總選會是要選舉的時候你對選舉 你就要開始安排 開始固定去了解他的票帳身體對的安全性要怎麼處理所以 主委 我想要跟你請教說 如果你不認跟我們行政院的人士如果不來 這要怎麼去"},{"start":6027.097,"end":6027.361,"text":"打死他"},{"start":6028.912,"end":6056.783,"text":"這要怎麼處理是剛才委員的關心啦當然我們期待說現在在這邊有辦法很快拿出適當的計劃那立法院這邊我們可以很快來完成這個審查的程序那讓新任的委員可以無縫接軌在11月7日馬上就能接起來這樣讓全部有辦法正常運作不要出現空窗出現空窗的話真的就是一個國家的危機"},{"start":6058.123,"end":6060.927,"text":"主委 我覺得有可能空窗的這是很快人的你如果想 今天十月七八還有幾天 還有到現在的民選也沒有"},{"start":6074.912,"end":6080.314,"text":"我覺得這種的行政隱私人最近有發生很多事情但是做什麼要想什麼嘛你也知道中選委有的人數要趕緊處理像這樣的時候每年我們的委員會要怎麼做還是大家硬硬的乾脆這個後半段的時候跟大家一直加班一直沒空"},{"start":6104.312,"end":6106.934,"text":"這樣是很慘耶 主委是所以我們知道行政院也很積極的在尋覓人選那我們希望這個你是覺得有人不敢來還是沒有人要做這我就不瞭解這你不瞭解好啦 主委因為我覺得我們立委是監督官啦"},{"start":6130.413,"end":6131.575,"text":"因為做不好的 做不好的我們都要站出來說不管什麼都一樣因為要讓一個國家進步到好的時候應該要積極去做"},{"start":6145.856,"end":6164.788,"text":"我也鼓勵有可能的人選大家要勇於承擔在國家遇到困難的時候尤其是選舉的工作是很重要的民主基站的工程這個重要性非常的高希望有人願意來擔起這個責任各位 還在這個問題我再跟你討論一下"},{"start":6170.131,"end":6179.413,"text":"你說用於承擔我相信大家都要承擔但是要承擔的當中說實在有很多無奈的真的像剛才說的公投綁大選說實在公投綁大選大家都看到說要來選這個候選人更加知道這個公投要做什麼"},{"start":6199.364,"end":6204.906,"text":"這都會亂了啦你如果分開我今天就是要來選好選贏選好選贏我今天要來選公道是什麼陷阱這次的公道是怎樣的 發生什麼事情"},{"start":6216.741,"end":6221.124,"text":"就是因為選擇不夠 還已經退役的東西還站出來要公投這不就吃人放的合適 吃人狗狗所以投票都會那麼瘦啦在這個過程當中 我也要向主委說我們的選務領完 大家很辛苦的但是在我長久以來還說每一個官司"},{"start":6248.561,"end":6271.747,"text":"他的總幹事 都是他每一個官司都收牌像這個人 我們的爸爸 每一個官司 他的主委我們可以去看人家的父親 人家的嫂子這是最重要的 這更破壞了"},{"start":6273.945,"end":6282.048,"text":"所以主委 這個東西我們是不是要討論我們的地方的中選會是一地方人數還是第三方人數來做不像這樣的時候 北省是要相信什麼"},{"start":6297.003,"end":6307.787,"text":"其實過去幾十年 雙武基跟地方政府中間的合作是非常的密切 也非常的順利現在又不敢了 你看現在開的雷槍 主委你聽到你的叫嗎極少數的個案 極少數的個案 當然我們覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":6319.051,"end":6335.56,"text":"那這個事先要如何的去防治這樣子的一種可能對於選務的傷害這一而我相信大家會特別的注意我覺得這個要去注意 要去想想要怎麼去改比較好 雖然你剛才有說什麼我相信你還要有看好說這個問題出來感受 以上謝謝謝謝 謝謝王美惠召委 謝謝接下來我們請黃婕維園 謝謝"},{"start":6356.856,"end":6359.898,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請李主委有請李主委委員好"},{"start":6367.557,"end":6387.893,"text":"好 主委好喔 因為前面有非常多位委員都還是在討論這個公投綁大選的問題所以我在這邊希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶那其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道說邊投票邊開票會造成非常多的選務的問題那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的台北市候選人丁守中馬"},{"start":6388.533,"end":6405.555,"text":"他甚至出來說這個邊投票邊開票影響選舉的結果甚至他認為這個現象非常的荒謬那我也不知道說為什麼當時的國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選"},{"start":6407.677,"end":6429.051,"text":"那那時候我們也還記得說因為投票投到半夜三點半造成非常多選務人員很辛苦甚至有過勞的情況然後還有很多選民因為投不到票導致說很多縣市甚至公投的投票率並沒有增加反而下降因為他排太久了反而很多選民沒有辦法因此的投票投到票影響他們的選舉的權利"},{"start":6433.534,"end":6462.473,"text":"所以其實到後來我們把選人跟選事分開就是希望說這個民主可以深化讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題針對人就好好討論人所以當時的公投綁大選在這樣的脈絡之下2021有這樣的結果甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選才有了現在這樣子把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度目前運行到現在我們主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎"},{"start":6463.754,"end":6485.013,"text":"到目前为止我们没有发现任何自爱难行之处选务的部分也都是相当的顺利所以没有任何新的一种状况需要说在这个时候我们对于公投跟大选脱钩再去做检讨我认为没有这个必要"},{"start":6485.526,"end":6512.897,"text":"好謝謝主委的說明所以在這邊也再次的證明說其實公投不需要綁大選到這樣子目前為止我們中選會照目前的制度反而能夠順利的運行對於選務人員來說也不會有太多的負擔這個是到目前為止這樣的結果人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的不會讓議題互相混淆讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定"},{"start":6513.544,"end":6537.363,"text":"好 謝謝諸位的說明那再來要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題因為其實從台灣的公投法實行到現在已經有21個公投案了那我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的因為其實國際上的這個公民與政治權利國際公約裡面有提到說公投的主文是不應該要有誤導 暗示 誘惑或是反對等等的內容"},{"start":6538.724,"end":6555.502,"text":"可是照這個規定我認為在台灣目前的公投的主文一直都有不太順利甚至是有誤導暗示的情況就例如說其實剛結束的這個核三研議的公投他的主文是說您是否同意第三核能發電廠"},{"start":6556.563,"end":6570.114,"text":"經主管機關同意卻安全無虞之後繼續運轉可是我們一直質疑的是五月核關法就已經修法了如果核電廠要提出重啟的研議的申請就是照法律來進行相關的申請這個甚至是藍白修過的法那現在為什麼還要因為"},{"start":6575.798,"end":6600.746,"text":"說因為因此而可以提出這個公投呢那這個公投結束之後就有學者分析說對於贊成方來說他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力可是當時候我們看到國民黨他們拍的口號是說支持核三研議換回電價穩定用電更安心"},{"start":6603.667,"end":6618.376,"text":"那這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑說這個真的有在科學的基礎上進行它成本相關的運算嗎包括說它投入的工程等等的成本是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益所以我們當時會覺得說這個樣的內容主文的內容有沒有誤導或是暗示或是誘惑等等的"},{"start":6626.34,"end":6648.359,"text":"疑慮呢那另外一個更明顯的例子其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投提案人裡面是寫到說您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女是否同意民法的婚姻應該限定在一男一女的結合等等的可是在這樣的主文之後他們後來的宣傳都是寫說這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法"},{"start":6649.52,"end":6669.262,"text":"所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯到是說中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定的內容的規範或是針對說如果他們這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用或者是有不實的論證我們的政府的權限是有限的"},{"start":6670.063,"end":6695.793,"text":"那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷"},{"start":6697.754,"end":6714.35,"text":"那這個是在國際上的例子所以我一直很想知道說在我們台灣這樣的情況下很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性很多有誘導性甚至我認為他的論證都已經是不符合事實的那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊謝謝委員的指教目前我們的這個公投法"},{"start":6720.14,"end":6745.162,"text":"在第9條的部分是有相關的規定第9條第三項說第一項的主文應該要簡明清楚要客觀中立理由書的產名以及其立場要跟主文一致這是第三項第四項規定說主文跟理由書的文字用詞字數的計算語法及其他相關的事項之辦法有主管機關定制"},{"start":6745.976,"end":6774.715,"text":"那剛剛委員所提到的尤其是關於誤導的部分其實在我們現行的這個法律規定跟我們的這個辦法裡面是可以得到相當的法源的依據我們可以來做審查的實務上我們也會要求如果發現有不當的情形會要求提案人必須要來補正那補正通過了沒問題補正不通過的話我們就不予受理"},{"start":6775.982,"end":6801.902,"text":"是啦那當然最後這個和珊跟還有像當年的這個反同婚的公投的主文你們都還是讓他可以進行到這個公投的程序嗎那我們問的是說像後面他們在宣傳的內容其實很多都跟主文已經是完全是背離事實甚至是不實的資訊甚至有非常多是誤導性的用恐嚇的等等那這一些你們有辦法讓他去"},{"start":6802.502,"end":6813.076,"text":"符合原本的主文进行相关的讨论吗如果是我们职务上所明知已经是伪造的不实的讯息的话我们是可以要求删除的"},{"start":6814.264,"end":6838.555,"text":"好那這個就要拜託了因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論當然是要依據議題本身他必須要符合事實然後必須要盡量的讓民眾是得知完整的資訊而不是現在謠言滿天飛大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下你要他進行這個公投的選擇最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的"},{"start":6839.355,"end":6856.205,"text":"所以這是我最擔心的所以單純的環境是非常重要的如果跟選舉加作會的時候那整個議題就失焦了是好這個就是再拜託主委可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好然後盡量的讓這個選舉的環境是更單純越好好謝謝委員謝謝主委"},{"start":6865.131,"end":6874.117,"text":"謝謝我們感謝黃姐委員我們請到金樹美委員質詢讓我們待會兒到李柏毅委員質詢後休息十分鐘謝謝各位美會召委好我們現在請中委員會李主委請主委主委您身體還好嗎"},{"start":6892.6,"end":6905.429,"text":"您快退休了吧動了一個小手術所以看起來你行動好像今天有點不太像以前快退休了吧快到任了沒有退休金了 是借期"},{"start":6908.297,"end":6934.69,"text":"雖然您已經快屆期離開這個職位但是我覺得做一天和尚敲一天鐘該做的事情 該負的責任還是得要完整的把它結束 好嗎謝謝委員並且交接今天有幾個問題想要問您就是這次的大罷免案最終雖然是以失敗收場但是代價卻是我們全國的納稅的人民共同承擔的"},{"start":6935.57,"end":6953.562,"text":"你在9月2號的時候 你也說一案的罷免的經費是1700萬到1800萬因為年度預算不夠 所以必須要動用第二預備金所以總共這一次的罷免案是4億281.5萬元"},{"start":6957.444,"end":6975.578,"text":"而在人力方面 我們也動員了將近27萬的人力我要再請教主委 到現在為止這種勞民又傷財的大罷免制度你覺得是值得鼓勵 值得推廣的嗎"},{"start":6977.211,"end":6982.873,"text":"這個牽涉到我先要講的是無差別的大罷免這牽涉到這個政治上的判斷我們選務機關是不宜來發表評論我們要的我們做的就是如果是合法的程序進來的話那我們就依照法律的規定來順利的把選務很好所以當然現在呢"},{"start":7000.28,"end":7026.386,"text":"我們也已經修法了修得非常完善了比較完善一點但是我還記得當時我做召委的時候在這邊修這個法的時候非常的遺憾民進黨的朋友們在這邊霸佔了主席台癱瘓了好久的議事規程但是最後終究我們在立法院還是三讀通過了把這個選罷法給它比較完善的修法了"},{"start":7027.687,"end":7044.825,"text":"當時我們也看到民進黨立法院黨團吳思堯幹事長還沒修法之前他說選舉跟罷免都是憲法所保障的民主制度也是人民的基本權利任何政黨還有從政者都應該尊重"},{"start":7046.026,"end":7065.351,"text":"蘇巧惠委員也說這樣的行動深化了台灣的公民運動跟民主素養雖然我們現在回過頭來看根本少有所謂的公民運動所謂的公民者其實也就是政黨發動的大家也得看得非常清楚"},{"start":7065.891,"end":7087.449,"text":"那麼我還想要再進一步的請問您您是否也認同吳斯堯幹事長跟蘇巧慧委員說的只要他形式上符合了人民直接投票的參政權就是對民族有益 對人民有好處的參與方式您認為怎麼樣 您認同嗎"},{"start":7089.993,"end":7105.326,"text":"只要是按照法律的規定所提出的不管是選舉罷免或者是公民投票我們都依法必須要受理這也是我們最重要的核心疑問謝謝您非常這樣子制式的回答"},{"start":7106.667,"end":7126.716,"text":"我雖然尊重您的看法也尊重吳思瑤委員跟蘇巧慧委員的看法但是我也必須要說按照你們的說法所謂形式上它符合人民直接投票的贊成權就必然就是對民族有益那麼我就請大家不要雙標"},{"start":7128.517,"end":7147.934,"text":"為什麼 因為當時我在修選辦法70條 71條 73條的時候我主張原住民的立委只要是出缺他就必須要跟區域的立委是一樣的一旦出缺了他就必須要補選而當時我們的內政部他有展現善意"},{"start":7148.354,"end":7158.491,"text":"他明確的回應我說原住民的立法委員跟區域的立委同屬立法委員但出缺的時候呢就必須要按照"},{"start":7159.93,"end":7187.797,"text":"規定來相同內政不是同意的那麼中選會當時您告訴我說原住民的立法委員補選的時候這形同辦理全國性的選舉它需要花費大量的人力跟物力等等的資源明白的講當時主委您的意思就是說當原住民的立委出缺的時候我們的族人要透過補選要選出適合的人選的時候"},{"start":7188.977,"end":7215.906,"text":"您說太花錢不值得辦但是當民進黨他要推動耗資上億元的罷免案的時候你卻說你這個尊重立法院然後你也說這是深化民主值得鼓勵主委你不覺得這就是雙重標準嗎我更坦白的說這是歧視我們原住民參政權還是說當民進黨他要"},{"start":7216.906,"end":7226.93,"text":"政治追殺的時候什麼都可以但是當原住民要求跟非原住民一樣的平等權利的時候民進黨的朋友們你們卻習慣選擇視而不見尤其是現在執政是民進黨"},{"start":7232.987,"end":7247.248,"text":"在這裡我要嚴正等一下我要嚴正的告訴也提醒主委民進黨對於我們族人的選舉權的歧視不是一天兩天的事因為這件事情我提了很久"},{"start":7250.031,"end":7267.585,"text":"你們執政大概已經快九年了而這件事情呢我看在眼裡 痛在心裡面大罷免花了這麼多錢原住民的補選沒有錢也沒有人力所以我認為這不是制度的問題這是政治的選擇問題您可不可以回答"},{"start":7270.649,"end":7295.675,"text":"我已經把我內心的話說出來了另外我好不容易爭取到的優化原住民的選舉人領票作業事辦計畫的報告我其實就是為了要一次性解決長期存在我們族人選票誤發這個主委您很清楚我在這邊質詢了很多次族人選票誤發 少發或者是沒有發的問題請問一下主委"},{"start":7298.237,"end":7306.798,"text":"這項事辦計畫目前的執行進度到哪裡了011月已經要離開你的位置了你必須清楚交代一下"},{"start":7307.512,"end":7329.218,"text":"在我離開這個位置之前我們已經兩次一次在6月一次在9月兩次的要求各地選委會必須要針對這個專案要先進行一些準備的工作可是主委您知道嗎我看到的是114年的12月底你們才會跟地方召開會議"},{"start":7330.538,"end":7358.058,"text":"然後這個會議裡面其實我們看不到細部的規劃也不知道你們要怎麼樣執行你們要如何來幫助族人來解決這個問題有一些前置的工作還是必須要先定案第一個就是投票的日期第二個就是投票所然後這兩個事情決定了我們還要去統計在我們事辦的區域裡面到底有多少的原住民的選民"},{"start":7359.039,"end":7378.328,"text":"诸如此类的这个规划的工作都会在年初明年的年初我们选务的协调会的时候都会具体的来定定所以这件事情你会非常负责任的交代下去然后接任你的人必须要完成这项工作我已经交代过两次了"},{"start":7379.548,"end":7408.326,"text":"已經交代過兩次所以我在這邊也公正的要求我們的中選會你們必須在一個月之內給我提出素面報告有兩項第一個請盡速提出原住民立委補選經費的精算跟通盤檢討的報告我們必須要讓社會清楚了解原住民的立法委員出缺的時候補選我們到底會動用多少的財力還有多少的人力好嗎第二個"},{"start":7409.028,"end":7426.886,"text":"必須要優化原住民選舉人領票作業事辦計畫這個計畫不僅僅適用在地方公職選舉更應該要全面擴大到中央層級的民代選舉我們必須要用制度化的方式來保障我們族人的選舉權跟平等的參政權"},{"start":7429.988,"end":7443.979,"text":"領票優化徹底的方式就是說原住民的選舉人名冊是另外造成的沒關係你一年內之內必須要正式的提書面報告給我可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝主委請保重身體謝謝我們感謝高清書媒委員這順我們家裡補育委員這順"},{"start":7465.157,"end":7487.502,"text":"謝謝有請李主委請主委謝謝主委你也即將在下個月任期屆滿是謝謝委員的支持這幾年從2018之後公投綁大選之後那有做了很多包含選務上"},{"start":7489.26,"end":7491.968,"text":"幾次的大選那中選會也是辛苦了"},{"start":7492.54,"end":7518.862,"text":"那我重複一下剛剛其實高警委員沒有講清楚的事情讓主委這邊也可以再重複的回應一次修好了選罷法修好了是什麼修法修好了我來重複一下因為我等一下還會跟主委談到1994年的修憲那所以呢立法院去年度的修法我覺得大家還印象深刻的時候我們在這邊也重複一下是什麼東西修好了"},{"start":7519.894,"end":7546.612,"text":"选罢法是把罢免制度里面的联署的规则修好了中国国民党加上民众党把联署的规则改成必须要附身份证附身份证影印的联署之后目前还没有任何一案的罢免案产生对不对 主委"},{"start":7547.7,"end":7564.054,"text":"目前沒有所以在上一次所有中委選會主辦舉辦的這個所有的罷免投票裡面是沒有含身份證影本的對不對都是適用舊法適用舊法所以新法他說修好了的意思是說以後的罷免"},{"start":7564.761,"end":7591.031,"text":"必須要付身份證影本所以當時民進黨的委員我們黨團才會把這個主席台站下來希望可以吸引全國的目光讓全國的民眾知道未來罷免他是要付身份證影本不是我們這樣子人數少就被強行通過我們用盡了所有的辦法希望所有的民眾可以知道這件事情這個是去年罷免案"},{"start":7591.491,"end":7612.986,"text":"那剛剛有委員說修好了其實是修這個事情我在這邊重複一下接下來我也看到在我們開議前那其實已經有很多風向球出來了包含中國國民黨的委員有提出來總統副總統選舉罷免辦法要不要提出兩輪制的投票"},{"start":7613.939,"end":7636.297,"text":"那我來講一下現在現行寫在我們憲法徵修條文裡面的因為主委過去是法律界出身那也擔任過司法官那也擔任過內政部次長也擔任過各個相關的政務委員等等的那我想要請教主委1994年修憲的時候在憲法徵修條文裡面"},{"start":7640.393,"end":7668.684,"text":"中華民國總統副總統由自由地區全體人民直接選舉之而且總統副總統候選人因聯名登記在選票上列同一組圈選以得票最多之一組當選這是《徵修條文》裡面的內容如果改成兩輪制那原本票在第一輪最多的卻在兩輪制裡面"},{"start":7670.523,"end":7699.289,"text":"第二輪裡面變成沒有當選請問有沒有違反這個憲法徵修條文裡面的內容如果 憲法的徵修條文沒有改變的情況之下的話根本沒有所謂的第二輪對 好 那如果他去修兩輪制是那變成第二輪裡面他其實在第一輪投票的時候他是票多者依據憲法徵修條文票多者他已經當選了"},{"start":7700.936,"end":7727.869,"text":"對不對你改成第二輪變成他沒有當選這樣有沒有跟憲法抵觸這相關的配套一個制度必須要都周延所以有一些問題不是那麼簡單的就說一輪兩輪絕對都是相對都是不是還有其他配套的這個制度怎麼配套好怎麼配套跟憲法抵觸的時候怎麼配套主委你是法律人跟憲法抵觸的時候怎麼配跟憲法抵觸就無套可配了你就要修憲嘛"},{"start":7729.312,"end":7754.331,"text":"是不是就要進入修憲上一次的修憲是1994年的時候民定總統副總統選舉辦法票多者當選好時隔30年台灣這一套民主制度台灣也從1996年開始總統直選之後所有的這一套民主制度我們目前已經選出了歷任的總統"},{"start":7755.799,"end":7777.991,"text":"而且都是依循1994年所修憲的這一套版本如果要碰到要把第二輪投票放進來勢必抵觸到憲法徵銷條文勢必回歸到1994年這一次的修憲內容其實已經否決了第二輪的投票其實已經否決了當時要做這個當選門檻的這個投票所以"},{"start":7785.865,"end":7804.002,"text":"不要再避免了就是說我的意思是說包含限訴法你用限訴法去毀掉大法官的這一些釋憲的這一些功能之後難道台灣的大法官台灣的憲法法庭就要停擺嗎你現在可能因為認為"},{"start":7807.447,"end":7835.134,"text":"賴總統他這次當選的票數雖然在相對多數的比較下他還是當選總統你就要去修改二輪投票請問1994年以來投票到現在你就要把它推翻台灣現在民主的這些養成嗎他還是必須要依靠一部憲法啦所以我要論述的是可以修改但是你要修改的最後其實是憲法"},{"start":7836.024,"end":7861.141,"text":"我們依循的我們的民主我們的選舉等等我們都依循這一部憲法在運作所以主委最後我還是那個邏輯第一輪投票票多的應該當選總統沒有錯而且我們憲法裡面也沒有寫到什麼第一輪第二輪投票如果要討論的話是不是應該進入修憲我剛剛就已經講過了這個是必須要修改憲法相關的規定謝謝"},{"start":7869.118,"end":7871.266,"text":"謝謝 感謝李博弈委員結束我們休館十分鐘"},{"start":8602.476,"end":8606.618,"text":"謝謝 我們繼續開會 我們請我們黃建斌召委執行謝謝召委 我們有請我們的主委請主委"},{"start":8627.15,"end":8646.36,"text":"主委好主委好主委那個今天是我們中選會的業務報告是不過在我們今天討論的內容之前我有一件事重要的要請教是包括主委在內總共有六個六位中選會的委員任期在今年的11月3號到"},{"start":8648.001,"end":8653.604,"text":"借滿 那依法規定我們行政院應該在八月就要提出我們新的這個委員的名單嘛所以行政院發言人說 會在我們後期開議之後會把這個資料送來但是目前我們到現在還沒看到像請問主委 你覺得這個進度到哪裡了"},{"start":8668.611,"end":8693.714,"text":"我了解是行政院是很積極在徵詢適當的人選那至於這個進度的部分我們就不瞭解我們希望能夠及時能夠趕得上在11月4號新的委員能夠及時來接軌以免影響選務的運作"},{"start":8695.355,"end":8707.645,"text":"是 謝謝主委再要想要請教主委就是主委你也即將要滿期了那回顧您就任主委的這段期間的表現主委你自己打分數你自己打幾分你認為有什麼地方可以做得更好"},{"start":8711.527,"end":8718.01,"text":"我認為這六年多我參加全國的宣佈當中大家教師的經驗是非常珍貴 也非常高興不是只有我自己的感覺就是說我們每一次出辦在全國的宣佈之後都會做民意調查"},{"start":8733.758,"end":8740.061,"text":"滿意度的民意調查大概對全部的滿意度都超過百分之八十五以上所以說甚至對全部人員的服務的態度都九十幾%所以如果一定要不然就要早點發表一個心理的感想我對我們董事團隊的派分所我會給他派百十五分"},{"start":8761.569,"end":8772.557,"text":"團隊分手跟配角 非常好記憶我個人 差強人意啦 差強人意主委客氣了 主委客氣不過本社尊重這主委的講話但是在本社要把主委提前但是在未來是不是還有人還是未來 我們問一下這個我們選委會委員會中選會一定要保持中立 獨立千萬不能受到這個執政黨還是政敵的影響因為這幾年我們看到"},{"start":8790.749,"end":8812.94,"text":"在這幾個選舉裡面 包括我們這個白眉男的公投案裡面我們社會都覺得說有雙標的情況 這個社會的觀感希望未來我們的中選會能夠更謹記自身的這個使命跟責任我倒是請委員是不是可以指教一下三一部分中選會有雙標 讓我們了解主委 主委其實我們其實早期多少委員也都說對了這部分是用提示而已"},{"start":8817.322,"end":8821.569,"text":"我們也期待未來中學會能站成這樣立場所以我想要談這次民眾投票所謂公平性和權益的部分根據我們省區部的報告"},{"start":8829.571,"end":8835.576,"text":"全國有8萬多名65歲醫生的長輩長輩到離安逃避逃避時有超過1公里這裡還有1萬5人是超過2公里對這種行動比較不方便的長輩來說逃避是很不方便的事也有可能是因為他們逃避的意願"},{"start":8850.867,"end":8867.976,"text":"2022年這身心障礙者權力公會審查會也有明確的指出我國的政府應該要讓高齡者身障者有更多投票權益上的保障讓投票權不只是只有有資格而是讓他們能夠來行使這是第一部份另外就是關於住民投票的問題根據統計有超過2000所的投票所"},{"start":8873.419,"end":8893.652,"text":"只有一名原住民的選舉人那代表什麼代表你開票的時候就知道這兩個人投給誰這等於是公開的變相的這個亮票這個也影響到投票人的壓力嘛所以這個也違反我們憲法保障秘密投票的這個權益讓很多原住民朋友受到一些壓力啦那我講中選會我們選有請地方選委會來"},{"start":8898.334,"end":8905.145,"text":"來調改調整我們這個集中選票但是意願回復不到一半 成效很有限那"},{"start":8906.61,"end":8930.133,"text":"在這裡本縣也認為可以推動不在籍投票讓人就近來投票這是我們根本來解決這問題所以本縣在建議我們中學應該針對高齡 深藏 原住民族研議這個不在籍投票的配套方式其實我們目前有多少選民都已經實施不在籍投票的移轉投票我本市選民"},{"start":8931.514,"end":8949.137,"text":"我在每個開票的時候我就在那裡投票那已經有在執行了嘛所以這個方法可以來擴大來使用在其他的範圍上嘛那保證每一張票能夠票票等值也確保我們人民得到投票的自由跟隱私那這部分主委你怎麼看"},{"start":8950.638,"end":8971.626,"text":"謝謝委員的指教 兩個問題要跟委員做報告第一點就是 委員關心說我們有很多連中者 這裡是行動不便的人他們要去投票所來投票 有一些困難那這是看一下我們的投票所的設定 因為國內的情形不一樣"},{"start":8972.726,"end":8983.85,"text":"我們現在如果全國性的打算投票票數全國大概差不多1.7至1.8萬這比1.8萬人進行已經增加很多了就是說運動分流讓大家投票更方便不過啦因為受到這個不管是說廣州人員的限制還有地方這個投票數的設定違定的這個限制定定"},{"start":9001.316,"end":9011.541,"text":"要設到說讓大家都很方便很安逸在我們家旁邊就可以投票這實際上有困難這個必須要配套怎麼樣子配套就是剛剛委員所提到的不在即投票要配套我們現在是必須要在投票日當中你要親自去到投票所來投票"},{"start":9024.927,"end":9040.221,"text":"那麼這樣子的方式是不是有一個變通的可能空間這個必須要繼續去研議那這個選舉的不在即投票這部分這個內政部他們也有在研議當中不過這些都是看小看闊那我們希望社會大家再及時廣益這第一點跟委員長報告第二點關於住民這個問題關於住民的不在即投票"},{"start":9052.171,"end":9080.2,"text":"那有關於這個投票秘密的這個保障的部分委員也了解我們做很多努力錢拜託 盤拜託甚至是要求另一個這個指標各地選委會你就是要給我提供到多少就多少大家很努力但是這也要尊重投票權利他自己的意願就對了所以有些原住民朋友你要說我把你移到什麼地方去他可能也有他的考慮不方便的地方"},{"start":9080.64,"end":9093.992,"text":"至於能不能夠同樣的用不在籍投票來解決這個問題回頭回來 跟第一的問題一樣這必須要當完的可能是 希望我們也是因為這個議題我們講很久也討論很久 希望我們繼續來努力因為在去 其實今天有講到說包括我們這個中選會推動這個公投連署的電子化那也在研議這個罷免電子"},{"start":9104.842,"end":9124.149,"text":"連署的電子化我相信我們中選會有意願推動電子化的這個連署的代表什麼代表我們有這兩項處理我們資安 隱私跟境外干擾這些風險所以未來也期待說可以超這風險我們來處理因為我們知道高齡化的社會已經是趨勢了未來遇到的情況只會更多"},{"start":9125.009,"end":9141.282,"text":"那我希望說 包括人民來的 人民希望說不只是投票是希望我們投票更加方便 更加省事 省一點錢這車輛車賣費有沒有而且這也是我們國家 我們世界的條例那希望我們台灣可以 我們的民主也可以有這種方向來進行 來前進那希望我們主委可以聽到我們國家的聲音讓我們中選會可以以變民公平的原則我們再加緊 加速我們的加薄"},{"start":9153.864,"end":9171.309,"text":"讓我們台灣的投票制度可以更進步我們真的可以落實到這個憲法保障這個投票權那在這裡最好也節目一段時間跟主委說感謝主委這段時間的付出主委你也辛苦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建平召委跟我們這裡陳冠廷委員質詢沒關係先給他先給他"},{"start":9182.935,"end":9196.82,"text":"我們請主委主委好 其實回應一下不在即投票我覺得還是要再特別強調"},{"start":9198.081,"end":9213.634,"text":"不管是美國還是韓國多次在對台灣的這種投票的制度都是非常肯定的是在籍或不在籍另外一個我們要考量的就是說比方說在這地方選舉縣市首長選舉 村里長選舉他本身居住在此地"},{"start":9214.034,"end":9237.593,"text":"那在這邊投票因為跟他的生活跟他的社區直接相關所以我認為在即投票才是我們可以努力的方向這也是最符合現在公平性也可以減少爭議性的方式因為我們可以看到基本上很多民主國家每一次在不管是電子投票也好或者是不管是郵寄投票等等不在即的方式總是會有很多社會的紛爭紛擾如果連台灣這種一票"},{"start":9240.675,"end":9265.616,"text":"一票票在本地在籍的狀況之下都還會有人來質疑其公平性的話那何況如果是不在籍的話我不知道說未來會不會有更多的這種爭議所以基於國家安全的理由基於人民主權的理由那還有各種的這種行政上面的這些程序我們都認為說現階段在籍投票還是比較符合全國的最大利益"},{"start":9266.377,"end":9293.608,"text":"我必須要再回答另外一個我可能要再請主委要我從上個會期一直講到現在就是在錯假亂訊息的混淆這個是2024年的時候某一個非執政黨的選舉人故意混淆他把民主進步黨跟他的總統跟副總統候選人全部放在一個然後來去暗示說這個是由執政黨所支持的候選人"},{"start":9294.848,"end":9302.815,"text":"這個東西我已經不止一次跟您說了那除了這個在南部各縣市從高雄到嘉義在台南都有類似的狀況"},{"start":9304.019,"end":9331.845,"text":"那我就更不用把俄羅斯的一個相關他們在不公平選舉舞弊的這個狀況出來他們也是用同樣的方式就是假冒是民主黨民主陣營的這個就是非普丁陣營的這個候選人然後讓他暗示說他是支持的所以就是說這種混淆的狀況其實已經不僅僅傷害到台灣的民主政治它也傷害到每一個政黨因為我注意到除了傷害到執政黨之外在最近的一些選舉彼此之間都有類似的狀況"},{"start":9332.725,"end":9355.626,"text":"所以為了最大的公平性我一直希望您能夠來好好的去思考單一選區如果該黨的主席已經支持該黨的候選人了他就沒有可能去支持其他政黨的候選人國民黨也是 民進黨也是因為這是單一選區任何其他不管是他是用無黨籍的身份來去假冒或者是暗示這樣的支持的那必須要有所防治"},{"start":9356.286,"end":9375.498,"text":"所以我上次在提出修法的時候我就說去年五月我提出修法的時候我說未經政黨同意非政黨推薦者不得使用該政黨負責人的姓名頭像及政黨標章是因為過去我們從民主化到現在總是會有這樣子的狀況出現所以我們希望去修法去來避免這樣的狀況"},{"start":9376.659,"end":9397.806,"text":"這不是發生在執政黨而已在對在野黨也有有一些為了在執政黨弱勢的選區可能會在野黨用這樣的方式有些在在野黨優勢的選區可能執政黨用這樣的方式這其實是會傷害到這個公平性的也就是說過去這個政黨不是打上真正的對決而是派出第三個候選人去削弱他主要政黨的這個候選人"},{"start":9399.158,"end":9427.853,"text":"那我們在優勢區或者是我們在弱勢區都會有類似的狀況出現所以我們講的是一個制度的公平性而不是針對任何一個政黨這個我認為說我們必須要好好的檢討因為特別是在多席次的選舉這種混淆的狀況就更加明顯了那這不會只傷害到民進黨也可能會傷害到國民黨因為我們都有遇過類似這樣子的問題那甚至我要講有一次在這種標誌上面的規定可不可以來去"},{"start":9429.395,"end":9448.308,"text":"學習一下日本的就是說有定期的這個時間點定期的宣傳點那這樣對大家來講都可以減低我們的選舉成本這是一個可以考量的方式甚至有一次在地方在補選的時候那個時候他們說山區選二號 海區選一號這樣的步調出來但是那一次山區根本沒有選舉"},{"start":9449.309,"end":9476.333,"text":"你懂我意思嗎就是各種混淆的狀況都會出現所以我們在標誌上推薦人上面我們必須要更加的公平所以我從去年5月然後你說你會提出一個說沒有修法沒關係你會提出一個相關的辦法在行政上面來制止這樣子的這種混亂選舉或者是提供錯假亂訊息資訊的狀況出現但是目前為止我還沒有拿到相關的辦法從去年5月到現在是不是請主委簡單回應一下"},{"start":9476.738,"end":9496.93,"text":"好謝謝委員繼續關心這樣一個問題的確這是一個不當的行使他的這個言論自由的權利不當的行使因此呢在法律上予以限制禁止甚至是處罰我認為是有必要的但是不管怎麼樣這個是必須要經過立法"},{"start":9499.071,"end":9512.843,"text":"因為它雖然是不當的自由的行使但是它畢竟還是屬於言論自由的一個範疇所以委員提出的法律的修正案這個方向我們認為是正確的這是第一點"},{"start":9515.485,"end":9538.327,"text":"第二点就是说即使这个法律还没有通过了在实务上高雄高分院已经有过一个相似的一个案例就是说你这种情形如果足以影响到选举的公正性的话那还是可以适用选罢法104条的规定来予以处罚"},{"start":9539.242,"end":9553.739,"text":"謝謝 因為其實這是兩大政黨都會遇到的問題因為通常會做這種的就是要影響兩大政黨的所以我在這邊也是我認為這是跨黨派的一個共識就是公平性那既然主委認為說我們可以朝修法方面"},{"start":9554.119,"end":9576.884,"text":"去年五月的時候你是說可以從執行方式那我們就會提出相關的建議給你們去看你們可不可以提出相關院版的或者是由我們自己的立法委員來去提出來可是這件事情已經出現了多次在我們的選舉出現過縣市首長的選舉市議員的選舉村長的選舉到公投都會出現類似這樣的狀況我們不要這樣混淆好不好公平 當當真正的決戰謝謝委員"},{"start":9582.007,"end":9608.14,"text":"謝謝 感謝陳冠廷委員林祖英 林祖英 林祖英賴慧妍 賴慧妍 賴慧妍何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳林德虎 林德虎 林德虎蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉咱家習新英委員質詢"},{"start":9617.081,"end":9621.891,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請我們的李主委請到主委委員好"},{"start":9628.543,"end":9646.033,"text":"主委好本席想先接著陳委員陳冠廷委員後面接著詢問剛剛您的答覆是他屬於剛剛陳委員講的很多他屬於言論自由的範圍我是說言論自由的不當行詞所以這應該是違法明明這個選票已經是"},{"start":9651.176,"end":9662.923,"text":"用假的錯誤的資訊來誤導民眾這一塊我可能先確認還是要用法律來規範如果是地方選舉它是屬於地方選委會的權責"},{"start":9664.127,"end":9685.612,"text":"中選會是不是針對全國性的才是你們的還是怎麼樣縣級以上的選務是由中選會來辦縣級以上所以縣議員是屬於縣議員跟縣長以上的都是中選會所以只有鄉鎮長跟村里長還有代表這些"},{"start":9686.872,"end":9704.94,"text":"好 那所以如果是屬於鄉鎮長代表村里長的那就是縣選委會要針對這個情況應該他們要出面來制止這種錯誤的假訊息吧我剛剛提到的因為他是必須要用法律"},{"start":9705.7,"end":9732.032,"text":"所以我们现在的法律还不够完备对 法律的规定才能够予以限制那主委 这个已经很多委员一次一次的会期都讲了你们要不要拿出版本但是我刚才提到的就是高雄高分院其实它有一个判决是可以做参考的就是说如果这种情况它危害到选举的公平性的话那是可以适用选办法104条来予以处罚"},{"start":9735.089,"end":9757.734,"text":"所以還是有約束力但是不夠因為選完了可能被影響了都選完了才判決在那個當下所以接著本席要請教您現在就是不管是境外勢力或者是一些不法人士散播這個不實的訊息"},{"start":9760.249,"end":9784.042,"text":"來影響我們國內各式各樣的選舉請問這個部分我們中選會在選務中立框架下扮演的角色和權責界線應該要很明確才對所以中選會對於這種散播不實言論假訊息這種情況你們的澄清機制目前速度跟得上"},{"start":9784.862,"end":9803.324,"text":"我们的速度非常的迅速非常迅速我们从108年开始就有成立这个错假讯息的防治小组你们发现以后你们会做什么动作我们第一个就是在最快的速度最快的这个时间里面我们一定要发澄清稿"},{"start":9804.586,"end":9818.801,"text":"你们会公布在哪里我们的网站我们的脸书我们甚至于还要跟行政院的专区要联系可是你们那样还是被动因为你公布在那民众他不会主动看到"},{"start":9819.602,"end":9844.571,"text":"所以是有疑慮的人他去查他去主動去查或者是有些人他把你們的網站訊息推播別人才看得到大眾才看得到我們會有管道來收集這些東西發現了它是錯假訊息的話除了我們立即的這個澄清包括圖卡淺顯易懂的一個澄清之外"},{"start":9845.311,"end":9872.171,"text":"我们也会跟平台业者来我们有一个绿色通道平台业者所以你们也会跟平台业者那当然跟平台业者我们有绿色的通道那我们会要求他你应该要查明事实你应该要下架你应该要限职阅览等等限职阅览等等这个是限级以上的你们都可以进行吗如果有反应假信息都可以不包括甚至于包括限级的都可以好"},{"start":9873.112,"end":9890.498,"text":"那現在因為很多的戰場我想主委您了解在LINE在YOUTUBE在IG在TRADE所以我們中選會有沒有建立這麼多元的管道有分眾溝通這些都有那還不錯很好那接著成效也不錯下架的這個層數蠻高的那接著就是"},{"start":9900.356,"end":9925.499,"text":"有關中選會作為這個選務機關我們常常也有境外人士或國內不法人士他介入那有些是影響到這個可能他都利用國外的網站弄進來的那我不知道中選會你跟國安檢調檢警調的體系有沒有建立一個制度化常態性的橫向的聯繫"},{"start":9926.794,"end":9949.346,"text":"因为有些国外的网站你就没办法了如果是牵涉到国安的部分我想国安机关他们都有在监控所以不用你们这边跟他们互通他们自己会主动吗在选举期间应该不会吧当然牵涉到国安的话他们都会主动不是牵涉到国安我是牵涉到国外网站进来干预我们的选举"},{"start":9950.406,"end":9965.575,"text":"這種情況應該是你們吧如果是跟國安相關的話我們也會把這個訊息要傳達給國安相關的機關對嘛 你們傳達嘛那我現在問的是你們有沒有建立一個制度化常態性的跟這些國安檢警調單位"},{"start":9967.216,"end":9987.767,"text":"建立这方面的横向连续的预警机器选举期间各相关的机关有一个联系的平台尤其所谓的检警联调的这个联系的平台都会交换情报好 最后的时间本席要跟您请教"},{"start":9990.24,"end":9998.589,"text":"這個我們看到行政院永續會的網站上羅列了各部會永續發展目標自願檢視報告獨獨漏了我們中選會"},{"start":10003.407,"end":10020.908,"text":"为什么为什么中选会自认业务跟永续无关吗完全没有中选会的啊是为什么我们的业务比较单纯跟他这个汇报的性质大概有一些主委你这样讲就有一点官僚体系的谢责"},{"start":10022.269,"end":10048.094,"text":"現在您是主辦全國大選影響國家治理整個治理的這個機關啊你知道選舉結果影響很大那你怎麼可以沒有給自己一個永續發展的策略跟績效報告我們在內部的這個管控是有的啦不行啦我可不可以要求你們能夠在一個月內提出來因為我看到這個聯合國的S"},{"start":10052.096,"end":10081.21,"text":"DGS裡面第16項促進和平包容的社會建立有效負責且包容的制度選舉制度非常非常重要對我們全民對我們國家治理都影響很大倒是這部分我們在世界的這個排名尤其是這個英國經濟學人報的排名連續幾年我們的選舉相關的指標都10分了好啦我們現在要求啦"},{"start":10081.71,"end":10110.031,"text":"要求主委你可以在這個一個月內正式提出中選會2025年永續發展目標自願檢視報告可以嗎好 我會交代我的同事送膠本委員會我會交代我的同事但是到時候報告不是我了不是啦 要提出來啦沒有問題可以喔那也謝謝主席麻煩這一塊我們能夠列入我們的這個重要的會議紀錄主委承諾可以嗎我會交代下去"},{"start":10112.014,"end":10132.108,"text":"你自己要領導吧不是說不是啦我的意思說整個中選會現在要來進行好謝謝感謝施行委員執行我們請侯孟楷委員執行"},{"start":10143.43,"end":10164.017,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請李主委請主委主委好主委延續剛剛學委員的意見那您剛一直提到之後你會交代下去但本席也知道是說現在有6名委員包括您本人是任期到11月3號"},{"start":10165.856,"end":10193.426,"text":"那到今天已經是10月8號了那不到一個月的時間照理講過去我們相關的獨立機關如果說人事有需要做送立法院審查的話差不多是三個月前就會提出人選那就您的了解因為早上你已經有受訪但是我們還是想要請教到底現在問題出在哪邊是行政院長找不到人還是大家沒有想要擔任中選會的一個職務還是說在等誰點頭開口"},{"start":10196.091,"end":10220.371,"text":"我所知道的是行政院非常積極的在尋找適當的人選至於為什麼到現在這個他進行的程度我兩任已經屆滿了所以你也沒有辦法再留任不行那其他的部分那有沒有諮詢過你有沒有推薦的人選"},{"start":10222.088,"end":10241.37,"text":"行政院他的这个征询人选的管道非常的多所以有包括你吗其实我觉得你很合适啊过去两任八年的一个时间两任的一个时间如果说你认为说哪一个选务人员是主委可以担任的那院长没有说想要来了解一下你的这个意愿"},{"start":10242.806,"end":10260.108,"text":"了解一下你的推薦還是說你會擔心不是我們尊重院長他的權限那你不會擔心說如果說11月3號到了結果人選還沒有出來因為送進立法院我們還要內政委員會排人事的一個審查公聽會甚至還要在院會"},{"start":10260.709,"end":10279.47,"text":"所以如果說最快最快時間今天送進來可能也都沒有辦法趕到11月3號那到時候中選會業務會不會有相關的一個交接 清黃不接那應該是三個月前就要提出來啦第一點就是說我相信行政院應該近期之內就能夠把人選給送進來"},{"start":10280.911,"end":10302.498,"text":"那行政院送進來之後也希望立法院能夠讓選務能夠無縫的接軌所以在很快的時間裡面能夠審查 完成審查我相信您也可以認同這不應該是勤勞立法院我們都希望是說政務可以無縫接軌可是重點在於是你提出的人選好不好"},{"start":10303.519,"end":10322.059,"text":"是不是公正客觀聯名讓社會大眾能夠信服那還有更重要的是你應該提出人選的時候就應該提出來啊那過去為什麼以11月3號到期來講應該回推8月就要提出人選那為什麼那時候沒有提出來是不是那時候還在看726 823的一個結果"},{"start":10326.122,"end":10343.95,"text":"726823已经过很久了是过很久了已经过很久是啊但是本席更想问的是如果说过那么久了为什么到现在10月7号都还没有新的中选会的人选名单出来所以因为过了很久这是谁的责任所以不是因为这个726823的原因所以这是谁的责任还是行政院长吗因为只有他有提名权吗"},{"start":10349.276,"end":10376.792,"text":"主委我再請教一下今天我們也看到這個相關的一個選務報告那其中辦理公職人員罷免法的一個部分在這一次整個公職人員罷免法的一個辦理完畢之後有沒有任何選務不中立的狀況選務中立這個是我相當有信心雖然這一次的這個罷免潮風風雨雨但是這些所謂的風風雨雨都跟選務無關都跟選務無關"},{"start":10377.83,"end":10405.567,"text":"但在这过程当中大家难免还是会觉得说中选会是有下指导旗之嫌其实就中选会是应该要下指导旗但是中选会但是不能影响到最后的一个结果中选会是主管机关中选会不能影响到最后的结果必须要负责监督我们的所属的机关你是要选务中立你是要监督选务中立我们就讲最直接的到目前为止我们就是要看好他要走正轨不要怕被骗了"},{"start":10406.207,"end":10422.78,"text":"但是目前但是我們就怕的是說中選會真的是太限制了為了想要達成某個目的或是某個結果所以說太限制了選民的一個洪委員你耳目很多你具體的事實跟我講我來檢討哪個地方有疑慮我們來檢討"},{"start":10423.72,"end":10437.652,"text":"本席到現在到地方上還是很多鄉親講到這一次的這個罷免案都會講是說連踴躍投票都不能踴躍這真的不知道是說我們中選會在下什麼樣的指導棋"},{"start":10438.499,"end":10463.385,"text":"我們鼓勵大家多多參與公民活動鼓勵大家多多出來勇於發聲鼓勵大家多多出來表達自己的意見跟主張結果踴躍投票兩個字不能使用其實這就是某種程度上讓大家看到說中選會身為一個中央主管機關但是實際上是想要為了特定的結果或是目的來去做服務選務制度的這個宣導那是可以的啦大家踴躍的"},{"start":10468.326,"end":10497.88,"text":"但是一旦是進入個案的這個對立大家在競爭的時候每一個每一方的考量都不一樣有些人希望投票率高一點有些人希望投票率低一點所以這個時候中選會我們不要去陷入到正反雙方的一個爭主裡面去主委我說實在您在政壇上算前輩但是我說實在話其實您這樣的講法真的不是一個正當的講法"},{"start":10498.18,"end":10518.945,"text":"我也想要利用這個機會跟我們所有的中選會的同仁不管是我們的委員到11月3號要離開但是中選會的基石還是所有的公務同仁要來做協助公民社會 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謝謝主席 先請我們彭部長請彭部長彭部長 我們距離丹納斯颱風風災到現在有幾個月了三個月三個月 那個時候我們講說我們破損 受損的光電板我們要把它完成資源化"},{"start":30.845,"end":57.17,"text":"那這部分資源化部分完成的現在到什麼程度大概其實九成的部分總共9.1萬片已經完全資源化完成還有1.2萬片他在正在處理當中因為他破的特別厲害然後那這個他先暫置在那個地方所以基本上我們總共12.1萬片大概9.1萬片是已經進入資源化當中那剩下進制暫置要帶資源化的大概還有1.2萬片"},{"start":58.922,"end":83.317,"text":"可是部長那時候不是說大概一個半月就可以把它清因為其實第一個是這個清不是我們清 簽也不是我們付是所謂的太陽光鏈業者跟後面的處理業者他們自己要去簽約那有些業者他比較貴那有些業者比較便宜他們就選擇比較便宜的那可能時間就會比較久這是他們的一個商業行為當然我們會嚴格監督說他到底有沒有把它去花掉絕對不會進到我們現在的這個焚化爐"},{"start":85.879,"end":107.849,"text":"可是我們現在擔心這個破損的光電板它長期堆置在一個農地土地上 是不是會造成污染不會 其實目前它大概如果它是放在一個站置的土地它一定要符合我們的廢棄物的堆置的一個規範所以目前的情況是沒有所以你說破損的光電板長期堆置不會造成土地污染"},{"start":108.149,"end":124.266,"text":"基本上第一個是它現在有的是堆置在有一些戰制的沒有用的廠房裡面有一兩個前一陣子有被發現它沒有包得很好地方的環保局也有去開罰了所以目前大多數是沒有問題的"},{"start":125.549,"end":152.243,"text":"所以破損的太陽能光電板它本身破損長期的話會不會假設風吹日曬雨淋會不會產生一些有毒物質如果是破碎的在一些例如說不是大自然的地方這個是我們不被允許的它就當成是一個事業廢棄物來處理我們不允許這樣處理的對啊 所以你看我記得我們環境部在7月9號在媒體上你們有公開講"},{"start":154.176,"end":165.409,"text":"說太陽能板不是免污染的綠色標章那而且你們也說這個破損破碎的光電模組如果沒有及時處理長期的話會釋放出鉛 鎘 銅等有害物質"},{"start":170.214,"end":184.129,"text":"會造成我們污染所以如果長期你堆置風吹日在雨林它勢必就會這些有害的金屬啊所以我們很快的大概最晚最晚一家是9月5號它已經清除原來的大自然的環境了"},{"start":185.12,"end":209.657,"text":"所以重點現在當初講一個半月現在三個月是還沒有清理完我們已經在原來的案場毀壞的早就已經到9月5號前清完了那是最後一家其他大概一個月就清完了那至於說他最後放在什麼地方現在還有1.2萬噸他是在他的站置場的廠房那有些是放在他自己租用的一個地方那都必須遵循著廢棄物的管理的準則來辦理"},{"start":211.198,"end":232.029,"text":"所以目前沒有一個光電板是隨便丟在可能是任何的這個草地或農地上面的所以這部分部長還是要幫我們了解一下因為這裡一定要嚴格監督我們就是擔心它這個長期破損的光電板你堆置在農地上一定長期堆置一定會釋放出這個有毒的物質這個我們不被允許的因為他們"},{"start":232.789,"end":245.256,"text":"元玉這家的確他有放在跟台塘豬的農地上面那經過這個媒體報導之後他也很快的就把它清除掉了好 那先請一下我們能源署的署長"},{"start":249.269,"end":263.727,"text":"是 署長我請問一下因為我看我們這次的報告我們經濟部裡面都沒有提到這個災後光電板這些處理的情形是 那這個跟經濟部不是也有關係嗎"},{"start":265.229,"end":292.219,"text":"那為什麼都沒有這些的相關的資料事實上我們是 剛才講我們是由業者清理出他的廠區外就剛才那個滯融池我們是把它清理到這個廠區裡面外那但是他清理到廠區外後續就是剛才環境部報告的他們會再把它送到這個後面的處置廠那如果沒有完全送到處置廠的那他就目前他是租廠房把它堆置起來"},{"start":293.219,"end":321.874,"text":"大概是我們分成兩個部分一個就是在廠區內的部分那這一部分是屬於農園署主管的我們會請業者在廠區內把它清理出來那出了廠區之後後續的回收資源再利用處理因為我們是看到你們上面沒有報告這個資料後來我們自己去有調閱啦那我現在疑問的是這一次嘉義新莊智鴻池光電板這暗場這個業者到底是誰"},{"start":323.763,"end":344.397,"text":"這個業者一個是元玉那目前大概元玉有三個滯洪池那麼處理的比較慢那所以之前環境部去那邊也跟他做三次處分所以經濟部這邊登記的是元玉嗎是元玉 對那彭部長我請問一下為什麼環境部登記的是淨金生能源他兩個一樣嗎"},{"start":345.738,"end":374.436,"text":"一樣 它是那個股東但是公司登記它叫原域公司那為什麼同樣的一個廠在經濟部登記跟在環境部登記是不一樣的公司 可以這樣喔這個我們再查一下它應該是同一個公司只是它有的時候是一個母公司子公司的關係所以這樣子是合法合規的 是嗎它同一個廠在經濟部跟環境部登記的是不同公司這樣子可以"},{"start":375.756,"end":397.373,"text":"這個我們要了解一下它是不是子公司跟母公司的關係那我們可以來查所以我們覺得很奇怪我們一去查 奇怪同一個廠兩個部會登記的居然是不一樣而且我們經濟部跟環境部這兩個部會尚未處理的廢棄的太陽能光電板"},{"start":399.597,"end":414.734,"text":"環境部部長剛剛說是一萬兩千片那經濟部是多少片目前我們是以環境部為主因為它已經破損了所以可能看到它是東一塊西一塊所以在計算的時候可能會有一些誤差"},{"start":415.615,"end":444.484,"text":"那我們現在後來我們是以環境部的為準這樣對啊因為我們得到的經濟部的資料是一萬五千片然後彭部長也說的是一萬兩千片因為他有的時候他一片他會破掉變兩三片所以從這個部分你看從我覺得經濟部跟環境部這邊吼真的要跟我們說明一下登記的公司也不一樣然後你們這個最後處理資源化處理還沒有處理部分"},{"start":445.904,"end":462.339,"text":"數量也不一樣 我在想這兩個部會是不是都沒有在溝通協調這個案子都沒有來連結出來我們後來就以環境部的為主就剛才報告因為有一些他本來是一片破損成好幾片那這在計算上可能會產生落差"},{"start":463.7,"end":479.127,"text":"好 這個部分我希望像剛剛登記那個公司我覺得還是要給我們一個說明那兩個部會同一個廠登記不同公司在環境部跟經濟部登記的都不一樣這到底會是不是 這有合乎規定嗎"},{"start":480.387,"end":498.774,"text":"那其實據我們了解我們台灣現在好像處理這個破損的光電板是不是只有4家廠商那4家廠商 據我們了解這4家廠商它5年來處理的數量根本都沒有超過2800公噸所以這個2800公噸"},{"start":503.476,"end":516.253,"text":"基本上我們處理的量能就是有問題根本就不可能在一個月一個半月內去把它處理好所以這個量能根本完全我們完全沒有辦法去處理"},{"start":517.082,"end":541.936,"text":"因為過去我們這個量能本來是太舊換新他定期除役那這是因為受了風災所以才大量的有大量的出來那所以是這樣的情形他過去是我們這些處理是有借領的或偶爾有損壞的那麼才太舊換新的時候才在處理這些所以我們現在也擔心啊你經濟部一直到處全台灣到處都在設這個光電板"},{"start":543.517,"end":557.528,"text":"你看一個嘉義的你就處理不了那我們在想以後你現在這量能你就已經遠遠不及那以後勢必這個量能要更大以後我們這台灣全台灣的光電板到底要怎麼處理"},{"start":558.436,"end":574.453,"text":"是 那麼當然這次是因為百年來的天災唯一一次從嘉義上岸那是一個比較特殊的情形那另外在後面量能的處理我們會繼續跟環境部來合作那另外我們為了因應這次風災我們也加強了管理"},{"start":574.973,"end":601.383,"text":"比如說剛才委員指教的就是說因為風災會造成光電板的受損那我們這一次檢討之後我們把屋頂型的光電板我們就要求過去只有技師簽證我們現在是要求技師簽證要耐17級風我們加強它的這種耐風的強度那麼加強它的管理那另外大型的這個太陽光電廠我們現在是要求它比較災防法要提出災防計畫好 那"},{"start":604.224,"end":625.963,"text":"那個彭部長我們那時候8月22號我們有到桃園東宏國際光電去現場看他處理這破損的光電板那我們也發現他光電板他各個廠的種類型號而且各家廠的尺寸好像不一樣對不對沒錯有大有小所以現場我們也看到他要處理"},{"start":627.144,"end":647.2,"text":"這個破損光電板它要有一個尺寸的機器裡面那如果這個尺寸不一樣它的機器勢必也沒有辦法這樣子去處理所以我們覺得很奇怪為什麼這光電板你沒有標準化給它一個標準化的尺寸將來回收也才有辦法標準化去回收處理啊"},{"start":647.921,"end":659.186,"text":"不然你看你這個量能我們又沒辦法處理然後你的規格尺寸又不一樣又造成回收業者在處理又費時又費工而且浪費他的金錢"},{"start":660.851,"end":680.684,"text":"那這部分我們沒有辦法統一尺寸嗎這個未來我們可以來改進因為目前並沒有訂定它尺寸的國家標準所以大概都是長成那個樣但是稍微都有不同那委員只要這個我們可以來跟標準局來討論是不是可以訂出一個國家標準來訂定統一的規格跟形式"},{"start":681.204,"end":697.301,"text":"我是建議啦 你像你看以前我們台灣那個寶特瓶的瓶蓋它後來是整個尺寸統一之後它製造也節省很多的成本再回收處理也可以加快它的速度所以我覺得這個"},{"start":698.891,"end":726.094,"text":"太陽能光電板應該我們也要來讓它統一尺寸標準尺寸以後回收處理才可以減少它的時間而且可以不用浪費那麼多時間不用浪費那麼多的成本安裝設計也會比較方便對啊 所以我覺得我們這主管單位應該要下來處理這個讓太陽能光電板去標準尺寸怎麼每個廠種類 型號 尺寸全部都不一樣"},{"start":727.486,"end":740.211,"text":"還有一個最後因為這個風災發生之後我們發現我們太陽能光電板雖然上面好像有它的序號但是它是用貼紙貼的對不對"},{"start":742.421,"end":759.189,"text":"那貼紙貼的你看現在有很多它現在根本這個貼紙都掉了所以根本不知道這是哪一家的到底要由誰來負責那以後這些太陽能光電板它的期限到之後以後萬一這個貼紙掉一大堆廢棄的要找誰來處理"},{"start":761.523,"end":773.86,"text":"所以連民眾都有講說這麼簡單的問題不會用鐵色的嗎用貼紙你看這個風災水災的時候貼紙都掉了到後面根本找不到這個業者是誰有誰來處理"},{"start":776.021,"end":798.568,"text":"好 這個我們來檢討看看有沒有辦法其他方法讓這樣的東西能夠不要因為風災還是下雨或是浸泡就脫落我們來研究看看有什麼方法可以處理這樣對啊 因為我們現在全台灣到處都在做這個光電板嘛那你看現在這麼多的問題我希望在尺寸還有這個標籤上面都一定要去加強"},{"start":800.186,"end":805.581,"text":"還有剛剛講的那個兩個公司別不一樣的部分也請部長到時候給我們一個答覆好 謝謝謝謝土全級委員"}]}},{"id":"163854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ab785cd56e158a8ccea2f7e777e01e95522ce05ac16c04005a7e32037ed90a385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:09:49 - 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謝謝召委 有請洪部長 還有石部長石部長我先請教洪部長啦 剛剛就接續黃委員所講的這事情我想這麼多的熱心的志工基本上都一直還前往花蓮災區嘛 因為大家心疼花蓮這個狀況"},{"start":23.872,"end":46.826,"text":"然後當然這個季將軍也特別提到說其實還是有缺志工那當然是比較屬於專業性的這樣志工嘛但其實還有很多地方還是沒有清得很乾淨啦所以很多人都還是會利用假日時間持續在前往災區嘛但是我們這幾天發生的是憾事就是挖土機的這個老闆他本身因為投入到這個工作裡面"},{"start":47.426,"end":76.2,"text":"其實他今天如果沒有投入到這個災區他持續讓做他的生意持續去做這個執行他的業務他有錢可以賺但是萬一萬一也是因為意外來致死跟他去投入這個災區從事志工沒有領辦毛錢的情況之下結果他受到勞保的這樣的一個一個死亡的幾戶是落差蠻大的部長你有掌握這個狀況嗎"},{"start":77.341,"end":97.781,"text":"跟委員報告那的確因為這個林老闆那他這個因為救災然後受傷感染離世這個大家非常遺憾那確實我們現在部長你可以直接回答我像林老闆這個狀況他把老闆他現在已經死亡了"},{"start":98.542,"end":121.074,"text":"他就是以勞保的普通事故死亡他可以領幾個月他的家屬可以領幾個月跟文說明我們會今天其實我們的勞保局跟治安署會進一步會到會來直接主動的拜訪家屬那我們會來謹慎起見我們會再進一步確認林老闆的救災行為是不是單純的志工行為還是有其他的這個勞務關係因為"},{"start":123.775,"end":139.228,"text":"必須還是要必須很審慎的確認這件事情才能確認比如說他是不是用災保還是只是單純的只有老保相關的這部分對 他如果是單純老保就是普通事故死亡嘛他的家屬就是領35個月嘛對不對 他如果是職業災害死亡"},{"start":140.129,"end":163.084,"text":"就四十五個月 差十個月如果按照投保薪資最高四萬五千八就差了四十幾萬這樣的認知會讓我想台灣民眾是很難理解這樣的邏輯我去救災 結果這樣失望三十五個月我如果在職業 職業災害死亡我可以領到四十五個月 差了十個月 差四十幾萬"},{"start":165.645,"end":186.054,"text":"這個邏輯上是講不過去的我的意思說因為這的確是涉及到比方在目前的災保裡面如果是單純的志工行為其實因為就沒有不在災保能夠去給付的範圍裡面但如果你是有一個比方說雇傭關係指揮關係或者是勞務對價的行為的話在有這個前提的話那可以使用雇傭指揮對價勞務對價的勞務對價對那雇傭顯然看起來是沒有"},{"start":192.596,"end":213.168,"text":"勞務對象也沒有 那指揮算不算我們可能今天要來跟他的家屬確認這樣子好 不是跟家屬確認吧我想在整個現場的指揮應該可以馬上去理解一些這些狀況對 所以我們今天也我們就會直接去來跟林老闆這邊來去林老闆的相關的親友來去確認他的這個救災的部分"},{"start":214.408,"end":234.848,"text":"確切的屬性是什麼當然我們現在從媒體上面從比較初步的訊息上面他們說這是一個志工的部分可是我們謹慎起見我們還是要跟他做一個這樣的確認剛剛部長回憶我是有三個這個樣態第一個你說你特別提到指揮這指揮的定義指揮或者是因為他有勞務的對價所以產生指揮的關係這樣子如果沒有勞務的對價"},{"start":238.732,"end":268.358,"text":"就沒有指揮的關係就是變成說如果是單純的自公行為的話那的確目前就法規上面就不適用於債保我是要特別提醒部長啊這個事情我想我們可以怎樣的協助要用盡最大的力量對不對我想對連老闆連老闆的家屬而言都是一個我們必須要做的事情這是為什麼我們今天要主動希望能夠去拜訪連老闆的家裡然後跟他做最謹慎的了解的原因也告訴他相關的權益我們其實也是基於一個權力協助的態度啦"},{"start":268.638,"end":294.598,"text":"好 所以這個應該可以儘快嘛一個星期內可以跟委員會做一個說明吧是 我想我們今天就會去了但是我提到 如果案例這三個樣態通通沒有的情況之下我們還可以寫出什麼 一站在勞動部保護勞工的立場保護勞工到災區去積極的救人救災的情況之下不應該跟職業災害的這樣的一個離別有明顯這樣的落差勞動部這邊可以做怎樣的補強"},{"start":295.419,"end":298.469,"text":"當然我們可能還有沒有"},{"start":300.894,"end":327.522,"text":"對 現在就是有勞保有勞保的就是勞保的這個普通的這個死亡給付的部分目前還是會有可是就像剛剛委員說的的確跟災保上面因為投保薪資跟他的月數這個可以請領的月數還是 確實會有一個落差對 所以我才想說萬一這個落差十個月差了十幾萬勞動部這邊可以如何來協助保障勞工去救災反而沒有辦法得到像這些災害這樣最高的理賠"},{"start":328.722,"end":353.831,"text":"勞動部這邊有沒有辦法我想我們會來 再來看一下我們還有相關哪些可以做慰問的這個來支持跟提供的好 我們希望一個星期內啦 好不好給委員會做一個說明跟報告好 那部長 是部長 對為什麼在情理上的理由很簡單因為我們政府機關還有相關的一些單位基本上都有一些志工的團體那平常我們就給這些志工團體有一些一定程度的保障那反而這種臨時的志工 沒有"},{"start":356.472,"end":372.351,"text":"這就很奇怪了而且一封一直進去一直進去坦白講這重新制度還蠻長的現階段可能再十天也未必喔雖然當時總統夏令到中秋節以前嘛對不對那現在已經過了但實際上看到很多地方還是需要志工"},{"start":373.132,"end":400.6,"text":"那這個中間我們說他因為他是臨時的他是一封封進來的所以沒有辦法去做怎樣的一個處理我覺得講這句話是有問題的啦因為畢竟多數的志工還是會前進到這個地方指揮所去接受分配那只要他一旦接受分配工作其實就可以有做任何的登記作業那之前進來他可以馬上登記馬上去做分配為什麼我們沒有給他一個可以臨時性的一些保障"},{"start":401.72,"end":423.539,"text":"這衛務部應該可以馬上來做這樣的思考嗎我們來剛剛提到來研議的就是往這個方向按照那個災害防救法來就是先登記啦登記之後照冊然後再指派工作那這樣我們就有這個等於是我們去增調的概念去替他加保對啊我理解部長你速度都很快的嘛因速度很快其實今天就可以開始做了啊"},{"start":424.019,"end":438.584,"text":"我們醫療的部分我們先做了嘛我們昨天就發新聞稿了說要去要先來登記嘛登記後我們就照著這是醫療的部分嘛醫療志工啦但是我剛才說像那種藝娃的部分可以去處理啊可能還要回到各個各個主管機關因為因為"},{"start":439.544,"end":466.606,"text":"各自調動的人不一樣嗎不不不 你這你可能可以打起來啦 我們不說啦保險的保 應該的保也挺夠我們建一個模式出來給其他部會參考對對 你只要登高一戶我相信很多的保險公司也願意配合因為大家都會有愛心嘛所以這個其實如果今天可以建立起來今天到花蓮災區有去接受這個指揮調度分配工作的只要有登記 你的保障我就馬上給你部長可以承諾我嗎 可以馬上做嗎"},{"start":467.387,"end":476.21,"text":"我們馬上跟保險公司協調 保費什麼什麼把它弄出來今天就可以開始做了市長再請留下那個財東華人的政災基金會成都島有來嗎這次0923的馬太安這個顏色火的災害我想對衛福部還是一個很大的挑戰因為部長你剛剛上來 我覺得挑戰什麼 信任度"},{"start":491.496,"end":517.195,"text":"很多的民眾想要捐款但是費失良了所以很多的就直接到災區所以災區不只志工還有連捐款的單位都很多他就想直接面對面罷他的上環給這個受災戶嘛也了解這實際狀況所以這個人數會很多啦那第二件事情你看去年0403的地震為例為何不是穆德16億喔其中6.9億是分別給花蓮縣政府但至今還有1.6億未核銷怎麼會這樣這個數字正確吧"},{"start":521.857,"end":540.132,"text":"正確嘛 對不對然後花蓮縣政府又自從穆德7.9億的上款至今還剩4.2億怎麼會這樣然後七年前七年前 107年的0206的花蓮地震衛福部穆德是4.4億也全部交付給花蓮縣政府"},{"start":541.84,"end":570.279,"text":"然後依照公義勸募條例第六條政府機關有上級機關者因於年度終了後兩個月內將辦理情形函報上級機關被查現在七年了七年了花蓮縣政府僅公佈2022年到2022年的上環支出大項沒有將所有的辦理情形報衛福部被查怎麼會有這種事情博士你覺得這個情形有這麼難"},{"start":573.76,"end":593.332,"text":"這個7年前的這一個已經把使用情形是已經有報來啦但是我們要進行那個會計師簽證之後才會正式公告 應該很快吧剛剛報完而已嘛他再會講是在英語年度終了後的兩個月內嘛所以他足足拖了幾年"},{"start":594.981,"end":613.932,"text":"組一組拖了幾年 可以這樣嗎是不是委員我可以跟您報告一下那的確我們有去查調就是當時應該是107所以108的隔年的3月之前那個花蓮縣政府有提報他前一年度所有的捐款那也包括了什麼時候報出來"},{"start":616.152,"end":643.264,"text":"呃 好我事後再查一下可以跟委員報告今天召委排這個你還可以事後查你資料應該都備齊了吧而且是107年到現在的事情啊是 我已經查過了所以中午之前可以跟委員報告我再提供一個新聞給部長參考啦齁0403花蓮重建路至今被貼紅單黃單的建路落成補強到現在連一棟都沒有補連一棟都沒有做喔"},{"start":645.281,"end":658.053,"text":"結果花蓮縣政府手上有衛福部的6.9億以及自己募款的7.9億加起來他目前為止 沙考 矽考他還剩下5.8億喔還剩下5.8億然後現在貼紅單 黃單的每一棟建築物至今 到現在連一棟都還沒有做補強"},{"start":666.484,"end":687.17,"text":"跟委員報告過去我們這一些那個上款都是為了要能夠重塑發放所以都會先預播給地方政府然後之後他再來核銷一個個核銷但是確實在地方政府的執行上有落差所以我們今年的做法都是由我們直接"},{"start":688.871,"end":713.683,"text":"這個受理所以才會配合整個行政院在花蓮設這個一站式服務直接受理然後登錄資料包含那個帳戶然後我們就直接匯款所以我們也了解到過去執行上在花蓮縣政府的執行上有落差所以我們今年的話會改變這個做法來直接提供服務不過直接提醒部長這些上款早已經給了花蓮縣政府"},{"start":714.764,"end":737.042,"text":"然後你正在基金會基本上衛務部都有這個監督管理運用的相關的辦法要去依照這辦法去做執行怎麼有可能拖到現在一年多有這些善款還借這麼多善款連一棟貼紅單黃單的建物到現在都沒有處理到時候又有問題"},{"start":739.197,"end":768.077,"text":"對 誰要負責誰要負責所以我請部長我剛剛講的一二三大致上這三個事情我覺得基金會正在基金也一定要有一定程度的責任喔這上緩如果他到年度終了兩個月內都沒有提出來有辦法讓他拖這麼久然後有些事情該做反而都沒有做然後基金會也都沒有跟你積極的一些作為衛福部也沒有善盡監督資責的情況之下我想這到時候誰的責任"},{"start":769.338,"end":776.356,"text":"該庫的通通跑不了請部長注意這個事情然後也希望一週內可以提議給委員會做這樣的一個說明跟報告好不好 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:"郭政軍委員發言主席好我們一樣請衛福部時部長有請衛福部時部長"},{"start":17.523,"end":38.308,"text":"教育部長好我想請問你10月2號在苗栗發生隨機砍人的這個案子這一個人刑滿處以不到半年就拿刀在街上砍三個人那其中兩個還是國小的女童那這名嫌犯十年前就在同一個地方同樣的手法砍人造成四人受傷"},{"start":39.568,"end":60.688,"text":"被判9年多的這個刑期上次入獄也是因為這個隨機殺人而入獄但當然啦 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對不對"},{"start":107.402,"end":128.018,"text":"那沒有人任何沒有其他任何可以介入或預防甚至提早預警的這個機制嗎我要問的是這個跟委員報告因為我們在我們部的業務裡面大概在社安網裡面會關注兩個議題一個當然就是物質濫用的問題一個是有沒有這個精神"},{"start":128.678,"end":155.422,"text":"的問題這個是我們就可以來處理因為他這個算是矯正無效然後回到社會上然後等到這個爆炸了之後現在大家才關心這個問題那當然我們根據矯正署的回應這個人在服刑期間暴力打架屢次違規矯正署說難收矯正之效那請問部長從監獄到出獄衛福部有沒有接到任何通報那個矯正署通報"},{"start":157.448,"end":175.064,"text":"你說出獄的時候從他在裡面的時候在監獄裡面到出獄這一段時間衛福部有沒有收到通告在入獄的時候在服刑中當然是沒有所以我請問這個要打架幾次要幾次暴力要殺幾個人才需要通報呢這個我們過去沒有這個"},{"start":181.201,"end":199.638,"text":"那他十年前就砍人了嘛那在監獄裡面他表現又是這樣結果未達標準這個標準是不是有必要檢討我現在講的這個重點啦當然今天不是叫你說來扛全部的責任我只是說是不是我們的機制上我們部會跨部會的這個部分聯繫上是不是出了問題這才是我們要討論的啦"},{"start":202.941,"end":215.683,"text":"那服刑期間這個人這個有長期的要飲食那衛福部這個有沒有提供任何的要飲治療在他出獄之後我們有提供這個戒指我是在裡面的時候"},{"start":218.038,"end":233.074,"text":"我們在那個矯正器官裡面也有提供介質就是那個替代有心理做輔導那些都有做嘛所以他在裡面那如果說他這樣子算是正常出來的喔所以你們是認為他是沒有問題出來的"},{"start":234.515,"end":261.859,"text":"看這個個案他分別在6月7月都還有驗過那個驗尿那是沒有毒品反應的對啦因為他上次我要講重點就是說他上次是因為殺人而入獄那當然因為他有吸毒可是我們防毒中心他追蹤他的原因不是因為他殺人而是他吸毒對所以這個問題當然我也覺得我們社工在這個這個訪視的時候這個他是一個人去還是有警察單位陪同"},{"start":263.823,"end":289.138,"text":"我們一般是沒有絕對有警察人員陪同啦對啊所以這個我認為這個我們社工的安全也很重要啊是這雖然是發生了這個隨機砍人可是我們在訪我也接到很多社工的這個陳情他們其實在這個訪視這種案例的時候其實是會怕的而且我請這個我們部裡面啊這個部分可能要再做一個調整啊那因為"},{"start":291.78,"end":305.987,"text":"獨衛中心他可能只是驗尿他不是看個人他也不管你什麼殺人不殺人嘛 對不對因為他有這個案子有這種傾向我覺得我們是不是要再來做一個更明確的一個控制加強跟警政之間的聯繫"},{"start":307.128,"end":320.773,"text":"對啊 因為社安網我知道都有通報它只能防家暴 防自殺但防不了隨即殺人 對不對你們把最危險的人放在這個網外就已經直接放生了這個是非常危險的像這種"},{"start":322.774,"end":350.135,"text":"在獄中我剛剛講這些狀況我希望你們跟矯正署這邊都能來做一個聯繫不是說他沒有精神疾病或者是怎麼樣我們就把他就不管了而且我發現還有一件事情你可能回去要了解一下就是他在你們在這個他出獄這段時間好像也有他們好像也採了幾次尿你們有去訪視幾次嗎他也有通報然後回去採尿"},{"start":350.876,"end":359.788,"text":"可是他兩次好像兩次還是三次的狀況是沒有毒品反應的但是這一次據我了解他是有陽性反應"},{"start":360.874,"end":387.408,"text":"所以這個在檢視上是不是漏了什麼你懂我意思嗎這個我認為他是出來就開始吃啦應該是有這種習慣他還是戒不了所以這個部分我們毒味中心雖然去採了尿但是現在的人很聰明他不用 他要在訪視之前他可能前十天二十天他都可以停止嘛 對不對然後你也採不到啊所以這個問題我覺得是一個很大的漏洞"},{"start":389.368,"end":417.254,"text":"請部長回去然後我講了就是第一個我就整理整個事情第一個漏洞就是一個人在獄中一直打架然後暴力違規然後剿政署自己也這樣做了一個評論說難收剿制所以在這個部分呢我覺得衛福部必須要有心理師馬上介入而且要回報要通報那第二個漏洞呢就是出獄權有沒有做風險評估這個他在裡面狀況也不是很好"},{"start":418.014,"end":430.832,"text":"他在裡面算是壞學生這種的你還讓他出來你們也沒有做追蹤這個就是第二個漏洞那第三個漏洞就是說我們必須要有強制通報的一個機制"},{"start":432.955,"end":448.921,"text":"那我這樣講啦今天就要求三件事情第一修法啦衛福部應該推動高風險個案強制通報的一個制度把暴力加要飲這些符合高風險的者納入這個法定通報的範圍那第二個列管"},{"start":450.192,"end":474.098,"text":"凡具暴力前科 要隱背景者應納入社安網追蹤名單並分級管理 這個要做分級啦那我們的社工才會安全 然後定期的評估那第三 中央要建立跨部會資料共享平台 矯正署衛福部還有地方衛生局警政單位必須同步掌握我們這些出獄的風險評估與移交的報告這個部長可以做到嗎可以"},{"start":475.768,"end":486.016,"text":"我們跟矯正法務部來討論我希望你趕快把這個事情把它完成那另外關於馬太安溪的這個震災基金我想先請你看兩張圖"},{"start":488.735,"end":512.604,"text":"這一張是行政院的宣傳圖寫著中央三方案另一張是震災基金會通告公告在網站上的資料截至10月7日合計撥款4億7365萬元至衛福部的這個帳戶裡面那你們報告寫說家園支持方案妥善運用各界對震災基金會之善緩那請問部長這兩張圖"},{"start":514.085,"end":536.287,"text":"跟你們的報告是講同一件事嗎 是同一筆錢嗎同一個 生活支持這邊有一個都是針對馬太安溪艷澀湖的災後補助同樣的日期 同樣的金額 同樣的對象 但只有一個差別行政院說中央加碼衛福部說跟基金會說是人民捐款所以部長是誰在說謊"},{"start":538.651,"end":556.826,"text":"這有一部分是屬於中央的那個預算那為什麼他基金會裡面編出來的錢都是一模一樣的那個是由特別預算來你注意看我剛剛兩張圖啊基金會跟我們公告出來是一模一樣的所以到底是誰錢少了"},{"start":557.85,"end":581.623,"text":"你說中央有負擔一部分對 負擔一部分可是沒有啊 他為什麼他捐款的證明都已經寫出來了前一張的話委員這邊右邊有三筆款項有一個10萬的未住金 家園未住金那我們總統到花蓮去講說要加碼那中央加碼20萬元的那一刻就在說謊了不是嗎那20萬元在裡面嗎"},{"start":582.734,"end":608.254,"text":"就是在那個家園的這個對呀 那是人家 那是災民的不是 那是我們老百姓的善款怎麼會變成中央加碼呢我想這個都是衡量所有的這個災民的需要人民捐錢是希望啦 受災的鄉親而不是讓行政院拿去印圖卡開記者會拿人民的善心演政府的良心那請你回去告訴我們總統還有我們行政院"},{"start":609.659,"end":627.739,"text":"政府要宣財是可以的但至少要說真話你不能把我們老百姓的這些善款然後變成你們的功勞好像你們做了多大的事情一樣這個不能抹煞這些熱心的老百姓有良心的老百姓有愛心的老百姓這樣可以嗎"},{"start":628.34,"end":653.016,"text":"所有的善款都會充分的運用到那麼需要的對象我現在不是說你用在不對的地方我只是說你們在宣傳的時候不能拿著老百姓捐的錢說你政府給的啊對不對所有的預算的來源我們都會把它標註的很清楚謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"163853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff085ba87eabbbfa182cea2f7e777e01e95522ce05ac16c04009afa05eb447b671b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"09:58:18 - 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我們請彭部長環境部彭部長 請彭部長黃委員好 部長好部長還有我們洪部長還有我們的石部長其實都非常辛苦在這一次的這個馬太安的這個災難當中其實你們都有到現場去那我首先先請教就是說彭部長"},{"start":28.793,"end":45.319,"text":"最近媒體有針對這個烏山頭水庫水面型太陽光電的這一個在媒體上面有報導那這個報導上面有寫就是說當地的居民看到就是說可能這個光電業者在清洗這個"},{"start":46.399,"end":70.886,"text":"光電板那不清楚到底他是用藥劑呢或者是只有用清水清洗那我想請教這個部長針對於我們這個水面上的這樣的一個光電板不論是在海面或者是在水面就是類似這樣的一個光電板一般清洗都用什麼樣的用什麼清潔劑或者只是用純水下去清洗"},{"start":71.476,"end":94.145,"text":"好 謝謝委員我所知道是用清水啦可是這個專業的是能源署署長要不要他的報告事實上用清水就可以那通常不清洗的話用自然的落雨降雨也可以清洗那人工清洗可能過一段時間會讓它保持比較好的效率所以不會用任何的清潔劑或是藥劑去清洗嗎"},{"start":95.826,"end":115.555,"text":"不會也沒有需要是好那我想請教部長針對這個烏山頭水庫水面型的這個光電板就是說這個民眾質疑我們看到這個最近的新聞就是民眾質疑這個可能對於水質會有影響那這個烏山頭水庫也供應的"},{"start":116.555,"end":142.7,"text":"這個民眾的用水嘛那我想請教就是說針對這部分我們的這個用水是不是有長期的這個監控就是環境部針對這個水的部分是不是有做監測報告委員其實第一個是我們發生南部光電板那個大量在滯洪池上面毀壞的事件其實環境部就針對有毀壞的光電板都去測了那測了5次都是0.出啦所以我相信"},{"start":143.32,"end":170.919,"text":"我们可以解释的这个问题那第二个是这个水库本身我所知道是能源署他们有一起跟水利的单位一起检测一年检的五次都是零检出都是安全无虞的所以我在这边是不是也请能源局或者是我们劳动部这边针对于我们这个水库上面的光电是不是会造成水质的影响我觉得应该是要更透明"},{"start":171.519,"end":187.135,"text":"而且適時的也要跟當地的社區或者是當地的居民可能要適時的一個溝通要不然我覺得以而傳而其實又會造成大家對這個光電可能又會有一些誤解是不是可以請"},{"start":188.69,"end":211.384,"text":"是的 是的委員那這是能源署應該做的我們會依照我們的指示來處理那麼一方面我們也會公告我們水質檢測的資料所以你們現在是沒有公告嗎還是在網路上面就看得到我們現在就是有檢測但是因為目前就是這個是烏山手水利管理局他們那邊在處理那我們可以把資料取過來公告在我們能源署的網站上"},{"start":211.837,"end":236.674,"text":"好我希望就是說這樣的水質是不是有異常或者是有變化我覺得應該讓這個資訊能夠更透明讓當地的居民甚至想要了解的人能夠更清楚的知道目前這個水面型的這個光電板會不會造成水質的影響我覺得應該要去適時的把這樣的一個資訊更透明的反應出來呈現出來"},{"start":238.275,"end":257.644,"text":"對 也謝謝委員因為其實據我所知烏山頭水庫是它的集水區的面積是1000多公頃這個只有11公頃只佔了一點多%那當然啦這個在水面型的光電是全世界都有的啦不是只有台灣特別那個水庫特別有啦那我們以環境部的立場未來像這樣的一個水面上的"},{"start":258.004,"end":272.498,"text":"我們會嚴格的監督包含了未來的環評未來是不是需要環評我們再跟能源署都在研商當中我們是以保護環境為主然後未來的這個水質檢測我們也會要求他們能夠盡量的提出讓他公開透明讓大家都可以知道"},{"start":273.818,"end":302.311,"text":"因為也許是不了解所以對這個可能有一些疑慮所以我希望就是說所有的資訊應該是要更公開更透明不要造成民眾的一個恐慌尤其我剛剛問了這個清洗這個光電板到底是有用清潔劑或者是只是用清水下去清洗我覺得應該是要讓這個資訊能夠更透明而不是讓這個民眾自己想像就是說他是不是用了什麼樣的清潔劑然後整個污染"},{"start":303.311,"end":316.139,"text":"這個水庫的水源好這一點我希望能夠做到就是說把所有的資訊能夠更透明更公開好好不好好謝謝謝謝部長請回座那接下來我請這個衛福部部長有請石部長委員好"},{"start":324.77,"end":339.867,"text":"部長好部長這個針對這次光復鄉的這個這個災難我想請教就是說昨天大家很不捨就是這個挖土機的這個林老闆因為這個感染然後過世那"},{"start":340.347,"end":364.077,"text":"就讓我們剛剛部長我聽到這個部長在回覆林月琴委員的這個這個詢談的時候有特別提到這個我們如果自己傘客來志願服務的這些志工也許可能沒有什麼樣的一個保障那我是不是可以請部長因為台灣是一個這個風災或地震非常多的一個地方"},{"start":364.677,"end":388.837,"text":"那也許可以透過這一次的這個救災的經驗那會有一個這個流程可能就把它制度化其實我覺得這一次的這個災害發生第一時間我覺得蠻感動就是慈濟他們的動作都是比政府都還要快那也許也可以參考慈濟他們怎麼做到那在不足的部分我們未來針對"},{"start":390.798,"end":414.541,"text":"我覺得應該是要更制度不要因為他去協助救災然後又因為受傷感染死亡不只是這一件因為有很多是因為被瑞麗的東西刺傷甚至有的是橫紋肌溶解症又住進加護病房"},{"start":415.021,"end":432.164,"text":"所以我覺得這部分未來不論是這個團體的志工或者是散課的志工我覺得都應該有一個標準是不是可以請部長先針對這部分跟委員報告確實從這一次的事件裡面"},{"start":433.605,"end":458.292,"text":"以慈濟為例因為它是長期就是志工團體所以他們都有保險這個沒有問題所以我們未來應該把這個變成制度化就是未來我們在第一刻時間就建立平台等於是由主管機關募集招募這個志工的概念然後我們再來為這些臨時性的這個志工來做做投保的保障這個我們把它制度化"},{"start":458.652,"end":477.869,"text":"那现在我们就已经公开就是未来就是先登记登记之后我们就有资料那就可以帮他投保然后再去按照我们需求的地方去调派那这样会让整个志工投入救灾也好或复原重建也好更制度化也更有组织性是 好"},{"start":479.07,"end":500.943,"text":"我希望就是說透過這次的救災能夠把所有的志工甚至的一些保障可能要更制度化那其實我也想請教就是說那這個挖土機行的這個林老闆事情發生了也過世那我不知道說政府針對這一部分因為他也是志工嘛那政府針對這部分有沒有什麼樣的一個協助"},{"start":501.323,"end":515.585,"text":"甚至那一位這個因為橫紋肌溶解症然後住進家戶病房甚至還有其他的因為擔任志工受傷的這些人我們政府或者是衛福部這邊針對這些人有沒有什麼樣的一個協助"},{"start":517.335,"end":545.664,"text":"當然在這個醫療的部分本來健保的部分就有cover這個不是比較不是大的問題那麼重要的還是這個死者這個我們真的很遺憾所以我們也是這個比照這個給予這個死亡未問津20萬就是在公務預算能夠處理的部分因為那個基金它有它的使用規定它一定是天然災害致死"},{"start":546.184,"end":561.2,"text":"所以他沒有辦法去符合上款的運用但是在公務機關的部分我們本與我們的權責之內來給予我們最高的慰問那當然最重要還是希望大家都能夠注意所以我們在這個"},{"start":562.982,"end":589.968,"text":"這期間我們就已經提出說裝備很重要裝備的保護飲食的保護 清潔的保護這些髒污的東西特別有時候我們會有一些小傷口他就可能因此而造成蜂窩性組織炎造成敗血症特別要藉這個機會提醒因為現在還是有志工會前進災區還是再一次的提醒請大家注意自己的健康跟狀態"},{"start":590.948,"end":608.324,"text":"所以剛剛部長講的就是說不論是在災區可能要做一些宣導針對這些志工也許我剛剛講的更制度化如果說你有造冊或者是志工來了之後先做一些宣導我覺得這個也是非常重要自我檢核一下"},{"start":608.925,"end":631.492,"text":"就是先然後該注意什麼樣的事項我覺得可以事先做一些預防我覺得這個是未來應該針對這一次的災難之後我們應該要建立更制度化的一個救災的方式另外我看到就是說其實現在陸陸續續還是有志工進到災區裡面去協助"},{"start":632.392,"end":659.459,"text":"那我也希望就是說衛福部這邊不論是透過媒體的宣導或者是你們在當地的宣導應該讓這些志工能夠知道就是說自我保護其實也是非常重要你要協助災區恢復正常的生活那當然就是說自我保護其實也非常的重要我覺得宣導這一項我覺得應該是衛福部這邊還要再加強的"},{"start":659.819,"end":681.281,"text":"我们那个罗一军署长他有拍一个这个宣导那个反应不错我们再持续强化好那其实这段期间大家都非常辛苦也感谢所有的这个部会都能够第一时间到现场去协助那真的大家都辛苦了谢谢好谢谢委员谢谢"}]}},{"id":"163843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0cbc73d08d3fcdefccea2f7e777e01e95522ce05ac16c0400f9f7472ed2d1f4185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:46:04 - 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有請洪部長有請洪部長洪部長 勞動部洪部長 謝謝你好久不見"},{"start":19.814,"end":36.963,"text":"大家都知道這個馬太安的這個災民他們現在是忙著做清理家園的工作那短期內很難恢復正常的這個工作我知道勞動部北分署有啟動 剛剛你也稍微點了一下天然災害臨時工作措施而且制裁這個預案及審當日核定的這個原則"},{"start":37.543,"end":63.217,"text":"有職缺有登記那就盡快錄取那在光復鄉我知道也有設有這個臨時的服務台也主動派員深入到蒐融中心去了解這個民眾辦理的情形辦理登記的情形這些都做得很好但我想請教部長目前申請媒合的狀況如何是否能夠比照過去的災害經驗就是說又有一點以公待政的機制還是你認為現在的做法就是以公待政"},{"start":63.917,"end":79.674,"text":"跟文說明因為的確在前兩週其實在災區因為志工的數量非常的龐大所以其實這個階段我說在前面這個清理的階段其實有很多的需求確實是可能很多"},{"start":80.314,"end":106.5,"text":"需要勞動力來協助的部分其實就是透過志工來處理所以目前的確對於來申請這個我們這個天安災害的臨時工作的計畫人數比較少目前大概50個人但是我們有預期可能進入到比方說後續的重建的階段如果志工的數量會降低一點的時候所以您支持是以公代政嗎一個比較長期的做法"},{"start":107.361,"end":126.447,"text":"其實這個我們的這個範圍比以供範圍更廣那因為現在在講的所謂以供待政其實是依照這個設救法那他比較是針對低收入戶或中低收入戶的短期臨時工作那我們現在就是委員現在在螢幕上面看的這天然災害臨時工作計劃其實範圍是更廣的"},{"start":128.368,"end":146.044,"text":"那相關的災害或災民其實都可以適用部長您講的是重點天災看似是彌平一切的自然力量可是很多研究跟報告指出來事實上來自天災的損害其實不是每個族群都是平等的"},{"start":147.004,"end":161.596,"text":"随着阶级性别甚至所谓的族群或城乡差距每个人受到灾害的冲击是不太一样的所以部长就是说请你提醒您在推动这些临时工作措施的时候能够特别注意到脆弱族群"},{"start":162.576,"end":189.613,"text":"就是脆弱族群可以更多的保障跟支持好嗎我跟文說明因為我們其實現在是請我們的北分署那我們的這個育理的這個就業中心其實是主動的來聯繫包括地方政府包括鄉鎮公所因為現在確實現在還有一些混亂有的時候這個現場的公務員不一定有這麼多的餘裕來做這個虛工計畫的申請我們現在都是請我們的北分署主動來幫他協助完成這些文件"},{"start":190.313,"end":201.918,"text":"那就是說你也剛才提到移工待任就是幫助這所謂的弱勢族群比較一個需要一個長期我們這可能不只是弱勢族群是現在的災民其實所有的都可以來跟我們申請這個臨時臨工計劃那主席麻煩請石部長"},{"start":211.942,"end":233.663,"text":"謝謝市部長 那我就一邊講了接下來從政之路會很漫長那台灣人真的很暖 國軍救難隊 志工還有這個在地鄉親都全部投入那大家都希望這個因為物資跟善款也不斷湧進來那我們都希望這個能夠用到真的用在災民身上你剛剛也稍微提了一下不過我還是想請教部長目前這個政災基金會募了多少款項"},{"start":234.888,"end":251.182,"text":"我們統計到昨天的話是28萬多筆那一共超過10億因為超過了目標嘛那是不是可以簡單請你說明一下你這個優先次序是怎麼來做的你剛剛有分的大概三項啦那優先次序的思考是什麼"},{"start":252.002,"end":272.558,"text":"跟委員報告上第一個是那個慰問金這個是我們法定要給的那就是死亡失蹤跟重傷所以這個是第一塊我們優先去發放的那第二個是生活支持的部分生活支持所以生活支持就是我們過去像0403我們最多的善款是發"},{"start":273.439,"end":295.691,"text":"是用在那個房屋的重建但是現在比較這一次不是房屋的整個倒塌受損比較沒有那麼嚴重但是清理很麻煩那個淤泥所以我們是用家園支持清理支持的部分我可以這樣說嗎因為你已經目到超過預期目標所以算是可以同步在做對那這些這些都是現在在發放的"},{"start":295.871,"end":304.994,"text":"就是現在暫時服務同時在做這些事情預期大概就是5億目前已經轉過來的大概是4.7億你沒有設截止日嗎有有有我們是對我們從9月25到10月24號那部長這個"},{"start":313.376,"end":329.624,"text":"會不會用在那個馬太安居民的一個災民的硬體設施重建就是說可不可以用在幫助災民整修房子還是只能說重建跟重構呢因為為什麼這樣問因為賴總統前幾天他說一戶房屋修復救助金一戶20萬那請問這個20萬元是來自你的政災基金嗎就是來自你的政災基金喔這樣子喔那這樣子就是一戶有35萬"},{"start":341.427,"end":356.407,"text":"從你這邊拿就是10萬是從那個內政部的那個特別預算25萬從這個基金政災基金所以總統可以自己決定政災基金怎麼用沒有這個也是我沒有說否定但是說政災基金"},{"start":356.567,"end":370.932,"text":"是這樣子用的 也是討論完之後其實我老實說就是說震災基金你應該有個委員會在管理這些嘛那我們也知道其實20萬也不是足夠的啦那剛剛你有提到就是說到底誰來決定這怎麼用嘛"},{"start":371.812,"end":387.034,"text":"好 那我明白了就是賴總統講的其實就是來自政災基金啦那我現在請部長回來就是太平村跟大同村因為他們受創嚴重所以這個國土署有進場評估是不是要遷村這很嚴重啊那請問這個善款可以用在協助遷村嗎"},{"start":389.572,"end":403.745,"text":"我們過去是有那個中繼屋就是有兩種啦一種我們本來的項目裡面有一種是屬於叫做安簽啦一個是租屋啦這個都是比較短期的長期來講如果"},{"start":407.268,"end":434.665,"text":"如果是千村因為那個整個都等於是要去建房子部長我就提出來先想想看因為他們在評估啦這也是事實兩個村嘛最嚴重那另外就是我們想要再講一下雖然我信任是部長但是我還是請公開說明一下對社會這些算款你有沒有公開明細會不會資訊透明這個非常重要因為大家來自全國的愛心捐款我們大家都希望能夠用在災民身上所以我們最後會看到這些"},{"start":435.365,"end":456.682,"text":"資料對嗎對對全部都會公開好那今天好多個部會的首長都在這裡我也說今天等於是大觀雲集三個部長在這裡我也希望大家能夠一起聽見地方的聲音衛福部你現在有提供剛剛有提到7加7的這個住宿補貼這個性質比較像安心計畫因為目的是一個比較緊急的一個避難好像有意願的民眾不多不多"},{"start":458.163,"end":476.982,"text":"我想特別分享東華大學民主發展及這個社工系的黃教授黃英華教授講他剛剛提到中繼安置他應該是災後安置的一個決策核心因為他的精神不是說臨時住一下而是說要給族人跟這個居民一個妥適安全的地方讓他們凝聚社群"},{"start":477.603,"end":495.371,"text":"然後他們一起討論重建一起清理家園因為這樣才能讓災民在比較有尊嚴的情況下生活而且能夠增加族群的韌性甚至把災民納入這個重建的這個決策核心因為部長對部落而言傳統部落的組織跟教會系統是重建的核心力量"},{"start":495.731,"end":524.443,"text":"那對於平地的社區來說 村里長這個當地頭人 宮廟都是非常重要基礎但是目前的政策比較停留在這個安置旅館的安置或者物資的發放比較忽略了社區的原有的支持網絡因為如果你再把它分散安置的話那可能反而切斷這個社會的連結讓脆弱家庭比較就更容易遇到大風險我強調的就是說重要決策是不是也有災民的這個加入參與那當然要跨部會啦要跨部會"},{"start":526.324,"end":547.02,"text":"我就是提醒一下就是那個原來的族群的網絡他們的韌性很重要那我想請教你跟委員報告在過去上一次0403花蓮地震的時候我們也有一部分這個善款去協助他們恢復那個原鄉的那個活動中心注意到他們族群他們原來的生活形態不要太多的改變"},{"start":547.84,"end":568.771,"text":"部長那接下來請再給我一兩分鐘部長那個醫療資源的分配這個板橋醫院的招商案本來是有一所499床的大型區域醫院但是後來因為考慮到近期政策調整還有整個營運狀況他撤案了那選擇撤回那我要先肯定就是說健保署的政策因為您去年就說健保會限制那個病床特約病床的那個數量"},{"start":569.952,"end":589.31,"text":"那不一定全是開放比如說一個一家醫院他該500床那你是分年慢慢的開放可能分到三到五年的時間這個是我肯定很正確一步為什麼呢因為醫療資源有限應該配置在真正缺乏地區而不是在醫療資源已經很豐富的雙北雙北這個蓋大樓加病床那但是目前"},{"start":590.091,"end":613.486,"text":"部長現在還允許加蓋的增加病床有1.2萬床我應該講的沒有錯吧靠近這個數字請問部長這些你有沒有盤點這個病床的分佈合理嗎有沒有開始全面檢討就是說你是不是要往真正缺乏的地方偏鄉啦或是一些急救量能不足的地方你不能在社區這個都會區的醫院繼續重複投資啊你要不要重新盤點一次"},{"start":613.886,"end":626.61,"text":"既然你做了第一件事我非常支持委員的這個方向是我完全支持所以現在有兩個一個就是會盤點資源折優特約的概念不能都擠在 缺的還是缺第二個"},{"start":629.071,"end":651.217,"text":"你要在新擴床的 或者是要新蓋醫院的你要這個醫院要符合四大要件你現在有權利做這件事 我知道你願意做這個是對大家都是好 醫院也好 對民眾也好最後一張請你看像這樣圖我9月底去參觀這個台北國際照顧博覽會你看國衛院 國衛院是全國最高的研究機構你看它的攤位那麼大 那麼寬敞 左邊這個圖"},{"start":654.398,"end":667.247,"text":"四個簡單的這個展示板內容平凡兩個值班人就坐在座位上滑手機我們進去的也不理 出來也不理但沒有招呼你看旁邊那個我弄小一點的你看人家攤位小小很熱鬧內容豐富 積極招呼整個成為鮮明的對比不然你覺得這樣國務院剛符合國家級最高的研究專業機構嗎謝謝委員對我們部的肯定我們部的攤位還不錯"},{"start":683.519,"end":694.581,"text":"那國衛院因為他可能他的屬性上他的那個學術研究為主你不去展覽你就是要熱情你去 我跟你看他們根本不理我們啊不理誰都沒關係走進去出來沒有人理他們在滑手機啊我會來了解然後讓他能夠更貼近現在是你的權責是不是好好這個展覽規劃你要報名 你看房間這麼大反正可能很有錢啊你看人家都小小一個可是很熱鬧啊"},{"start":714.987,"end":725.924,"text":"這樣你叫我去審查國務院的預算啦好好你同意吧我會來了解我親自去照相照回來給你看喔好好吧 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"163842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff02243899c27362e21cea2f7e777e01e95522ce05ac16c040091b1f0c7435980ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:33:29 - 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主席麻煩我們的彭部長 有請彭部長林委員好 部長早這次花蓮環境部應該設4個戰事場 堆放過超過1萬噸的泥沙還有接近1萬噸的廢棄物而且數字還在增加 現在災區的泥沙跟垃圾都集中在堆置"},{"start":33.385,"end":49.486,"text":"那現場已經傳出我們的腐爛臭味也擔心病菌滋生我知道環境部環管署的那個原署長提過會評估把土質良好的淤泥再利用可是公衛專家提醒天然不等於無害"},{"start":50.567,"end":63.021,"text":"尤其是東部沿城的一個重金屬背景值本來就高所以請問一下部長說在利用之前環境部要怎麼確保這些巨量的淤泥做過完整的土壤檢測"},{"start":64.543,"end":86.446,"text":"包委員我剛剛有報告過土壤檢測的部分我們的確這個是當地的土質的特性有微量的重金屬但是它都是在環境許可的標準裡面那我們擔心的是說因為它跟垃圾混在一起的確有一塊是在台塘的附近就是一開始清運但是我們會把它列入可以移到遠一點點的地方去"},{"start":86.966,"end":112.846,"text":"部長如果不能再利用這些泥沙跟廢棄物要送到哪邊誰負責然後經費從哪裡來整體的處理期程大概要多久報告委員這是一個漫漫長路因為這種混在一起一定要有機器來再篩分的我們目前是預計當然這個災後可能要到10月底才會完全的告一段落我們現在是爭取立法院的預算希望在追加預算的時候明年開始來執行"},{"start":113.647,"end":142.323,"text":"是我們當然大力支持要趕快讓那個花蓮可以走完這些那環境部現在是否已經跟衛福部地方衛生局共同監測水質因為接下來要引用水土壤跟公共衛生這個監測會做多久是中央還是交給地方來做這個是我們中央跟地方一起合作那自來水的水質我們就是定期的一直不斷的在採驗當中那目前都是合格的好謝謝那個彭部長麻煩我們的勞動部的彭部長"},{"start":148.652,"end":163.097,"text":"部長早大型災後現場的復原不是短跑是長期馬拉松防止過勞跟維護現場安全不是拖慢救災而是讓復原力可以更長久讓我知道這次去的人不見得事實上是在你管轄範圍可是"},{"start":165.098,"end":178.166,"text":"我覺得勞動部還是要扮演一個很重要的角色因為我知道現在勞動 勞保局也啟動了保費補助傷病給付你剛剛都有談而且減輕受在勞工的負擔各部會也持續加強安全就是整個安全宣導"},{"start":180.007,"end":203.574,"text":"雖然有時候 現在有志工 又有公務體系 又有勞工雖然身份跟法規適用不同 可是過勞就是過勞工作風險就是風險 所以想問部長除了加班認定跟事後補助之外從勞動部的那個保障職安的經驗出發的話是否可由勞動部來提出具體可執行的跨部會的工作防範規範或制度指引"},{"start":205.436,"end":219.47,"text":"跟委員說明那的確因為其實現在在災區蠻多投入到協助工作的其實都是志工那他們並不那麼是以一個勞工的身份在現場"},{"start":221.152,"end":245.866,"text":"所以其實比較不容易比方說用一個勞動法規的角度去對他們的各個去做很直接的框線但是我是認為我們可能可以葛部長你們也是比較知道在勞動這樣的一個因為在工作的條件當中雖然是志工可是會不會有過度工作的狀況所以是不是可以有個指引讓各部會可以去參考"},{"start":246.877,"end":260.911,"text":"我想我們可以來請我們的職安署那跟這些相關的尤其是需要用人的單位那不管他用的是勞工還是現在其實是很多的志工來協助那怎麼讓大家比較能夠"},{"start":261.972,"end":280.526,"text":"有一個概念 就比方說在安全上面 或者是在這個工作的勞動時間上面怎麼樣子 其實還希望大家是在一個相對比較安全的範圍內我覺得我們願意來跟這些相關業務單位來做一些討論好 謝謝 我想你剛剛報告也做了蠻多事謝謝洪部長那接下來麻煩我們的衛福部的石部長"},{"start":284.469,"end":299.978,"text":"部長災後第一週民間救護單位就統計上千人然後受傷那這次志工的保險的問題呢也確實暴露法律適用的灰色地帶以我們的災防法跟32條跟自願服務法第16條呢"},{"start":301.119,"end":324.655,"text":"应由志工运用单位来替志工办理意外事故的保险可是实际上很多人不是透过组织报名的是现场登记的甚至是自发性投入的保险的涵盖率各有各的说法换句话说没有隶属单位就可能是落在没有保障的真空区这次花林县政府提出说区域性纳保方案"},{"start":331.319,"end":345.314,"text":"納入研議 可是請部長具體說明這會是未來救災的固定模式嗎還有這樣的區域性納保的機制可行嗎這些災區的保險的運用情況又是什麼"},{"start":345.899,"end":361.541,"text":"好很謝謝委員對於我們所有投入這個救災人員的這個權益的保障這個很重要那我們把它分三塊一個是由政府發動的所以就像我們昨天就發新聞稿是希望呢先來登記"},{"start":362.142,"end":388.802,"text":"那登記之後由我們這個衛福部單位會診之後依照需求去統一調派那就會符合災害防救法第32條的規定我們就會為這些志工來加保所以他們就會受到保障這是第一個那第二個呢是如果是有組織的志工團體來的那就會按照志願服務法來本來就要幫他們加保所以最麻煩的就是散客就是他自行前往的"},{"start":389.002,"end":405.48,"text":"可是現在沒有一個單位的話事實上基本上就沒有辦法認定所以我們也去詢問了這個保險工會啦如果是散課的部分目前還有兩種方式可以討論一種是用旅遊平安險附加醫療險傷害險的部分去處理"},{"start":406.321,"end":430.196,"text":"另外一個就是他們另外也有一個屬於小規模只要5人以上就可以加保的那個叫做那個災害防救的那個保險商品所以部長是因為有時間關係所以是不是再把後續你剛提的東西提供給我們辦公室我們還是最建議就是說先登錄"},{"start":430.896,"end":459.036,"text":"有意愿来的因为我们就弄了一个窗口平台登录登录之后我们统一调派的时候我们就会替这些志工加保你再把那个给我部长每一件儿虐新闻都让人家很心痛任何对孩子暴力都应该要被严厉谴责彻底追究但我也要提醒保护孩子不是只靠谴责要把破掉的网补起来社工不是不能被检讨有疏失就该检讨可是制度的漏洞也要被看见"},{"start":459.736,"end":486.952,"text":"就這起桃園案例 醫衛福部的說明證明男童原本就是家防中心的服務個案社工從4月就介入了協助安排我們的心理諮商 身心科的治療還有親子教育媒體說社工只是在大廳陪玩並不正確那位陪伴者其實事實上是社工媒合的志工可是這類的案件常常把社工當成事實上是劍靶士氣受到很大打擊"},{"start":487.592,"end":506.886,"text":"所以昨天很多社工都跟我想說他們想離職尤其是兒保社工基於倫理原則就是不能對外說明所以最容易被指責部長你要不要趁這次答詢從部長的高度來回應這件事情我們當然絕對譴責兒童的暴力可是也要讓社工知道部長你是支持他們的"},{"start":508.044,"end":526.293,"text":"我們必須講從這個不論是這一次的這個災害發生其實第一線社工團體就主動的對我們表達他們願意投入救災所以才會有我們跟這個社工師全國全聯會的合作方案他們都是主動的"},{"start":527.253,"end":551.375,"text":"可是為何不也要出來講講話啊怎麼讓這麼多基層社工受到這麼大的大家都只想說那我不做那是不是你們政府自己來完成呢我們非常的支持第一線的社工因為不論是從自殺的房子或者是像這些脆弱家庭的關懷沒有這些基層社工的話基本上做不了事情我們什麼都沒有辦法"},{"start":552.196,"end":571.018,"text":"那麼有很多事情是超乎我們能夠控制或設想那我們從每一件這樣的事件當中來檢討看我們還有什麼在制度上面可以來努力 可以來彌補我覺得部長要挺社工否則的話我覺得很難讓基層社工能夠做得下去絕對 絕對"},{"start":572.159,"end":597.737,"text":"最後衛福部一群會要求地方做檢討報告召開會議我上任以來就一直在三強調社安網不是社政的社安網社安網從來也不是社工一個人的網這些檢討會議到底有沒有真正檢討到背後的制度跟資源問題如果都不解決這問題的時候最後就是把社工推到前面去擋著所有的子彈我覺得這很不適宜所以"},{"start":600.359,"end":616.429,"text":"我們在社交網第一期的計畫的時候從今年底就要到期了那衛福部現在即將提出2.0的計畫先前我辦公室討論的時候我也就提出了幾個計畫方向包含可不可以個案回推制度那個檢討越重大的兒女會議"},{"start":617.49,"end":644.185,"text":"召開的時候可不可以把每一個都主向 就像當初我針對凱凱案這件事情發生提出了幾個修法和11項的相關的措施類似這樣子 不是說這個只檢討單一的個案是要過頭來去看你的制度是不是出現了一個問題然後呢 從這個制度要去改第二個就是釐清各單位的功能定位所謂網 就是網絡去結合可是怎麼會事實上是各做各的呢"},{"start":644.525,"end":672.9,"text":"而且各自不知道對方在做些什麼所以都沒有辦法連結所以我希望你們的社安網的這個2.0要提出來之前可不可以針對我剛才提出來現在提出來這三點能夠去做回應甚至應該要去檢核地方實際執行的情況因為的確很多東西不是中央可是中央制定法規說那地方到底怎麼執行否則地方執行的很大落差的話基本上沒有辦法滿足"},{"start":674.181,"end":679.349,"text":"所以最後是不是想問說你們後來現在演繹我當初提出來這三項的狀況到底是什麼"},{"start":679.938,"end":708.73,"text":"我想這三點我們都會納入在我們未來這個社安網的2.0的時候會納入最重要的是對於未來我們對這些個案的review的時候一定秉持兩個原則是對事不對人第二個是對制度來進行檢討而不是對個人來檢討那麼這個不要讓這個辛苦付出的社工反而因為一些事件那麼早受打擊"},{"start":709.49,"end":736.383,"text":"我覺得微卜部也要提醒媒體因為這樣子的報導有時候對社工真的打擊非常大我要再三強調制度如果支撐不起來再努力的社工也撐不住我要求行政部門不要再把責任丟給單一的社工應該從重大惡劣個案回推制度檢討釐清社安網各單位的功能定位不要再重疊做重複的事情還要做無用的宣導"},{"start":737.123,"end":745.253,"text":"才能夠真正去補強而不是把責任放在社工身上是好再麻煩我們部長好謝謝委員謝謝林月琴委員"}]}},{"id":"163944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff021f52a5e15e4b657cea2f7e777e01e9590b149bf9762da9245bf4d8e7f7c77355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:10:09 - 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這個區域大概獨老的大概72位那有大概50幾位是在收容中心所以在收容中心的目前還有人會互相關照那接下來因為要開始回到他的家"},{"start":226.576,"end":253.987,"text":"那或者是會短期的到旅宿去居住這個時候我們就要開始做連結所以那個獨老的我們有個專案會來處理我今天大概就舉例這個獨老部分但是我泛指的是其實即便是不分年齡大家都還是會有那個因為包括我去災區連續待了幾天我晚上回去我也是會做夢到那個情景所以我想這個部分請你們再多加強好 謝謝"},{"start":255.387,"end":281.008,"text":"那個環境部的部分我想是這樣就是說其實我剛剛放眼望去有一個人的膚色很斜眼就是我們顏旭明 顏署長他現在那個你現在的皮膚的顏色應該跟我的雨鞋一樣黑了那是這樣因為環境部的部分當然就是說我們"},{"start":282.749,"end":302.089,"text":"這個很明顯這麼多的這個淤泥你們的工作量真的很大而且你們還有20里鴻溝人家有10里桃花你有20里的鴻溝還要慢慢清這個都是未來衛福環境部要長期抗戰的部分那因為我在災區的幾天當然也謝謝嚴署長"},{"start":304.251,"end":327.441,"text":"都有及時回應我們在災區遇到的一些問題那我也跟他一起我們還有那個環管署的幾位工作人員我們到處在找那個暫時的那個迷你迷你站置場不然兩邊的淤泥沒辦法清整個交通動線是很不順暢的所以在這邊因為也看到現場你們很多辛苦的同仁所以在這邊也對對你們表達感謝"},{"start":330.362,"end":359.571,"text":"謝謝委員但是你們必須要經得起考驗因為後面上百萬噸的這些垃圾還有這些淤泥泥沙這個就是你們應該要好好加強的部分好那也謝謝兩位我沒有請你們上來主要是褒獎你們啦謝謝委員你應該也十天沒回家了吧十二天啦十二天好啦陪過中秋節那好謝謝那我接下來請那個勞動部部長"},{"start":362.324,"end":385.856,"text":"請洪部長部長有去過災區嗎我還沒好那這個是這樣我想因為你沒有過去我大概描述一下就是說我們到災區第一站大家會遇到會抵達地點就是光復火車站我描述一下那邊的情況因為"},{"start":388.978,"end":405.795,"text":"因為這次的這個我們華家沙颱風造成這個馬太安顏色湖的破口那這個整個土石流的這個衍生衝擊讓我們光復地區的民眾是遭受到很大的災害"},{"start":406.716,"end":420.518,"text":"也因為這樣子的災害我們看到台灣人的韌性台灣人的溫暖所以我們有成千上萬的超人們都湧入了光復那第一站抵達這個光復火車站下車的時候"},{"start":421.9,"end":440.154,"text":"前幾天我在現場那真的是一個無政府的狀態現場亂七八糟的走不進去他從火車站快要走不出來然後我們要去搭火車也上不去那滿滿的都是志工雖然很混亂但是很感人那我要講的是說"},{"start":443.583,"end":464.573,"text":"這個後來在中央開始介入接手之後呢有這個志工登記的這個站的設置那我要講一下我們在登記出這個火車站的時候有一個景象第一天很多的志工"},{"start":465.612,"end":478.796,"text":"沒有人登記可能好幾萬然後再來後續這個站設置之後有兩個就是說志工不曉得要去哪裡的他們就會到"},{"start":479.369,"end":501.699,"text":"那個站報到那園民會也在那邊幫忙那還有一種像我們這種我們就是我們有目的知道要去哪裡我們就覺得我們不用去登記因為登記就要接受指揮他們要分配嘛而我們自己已經有地方去了就沒有登記好現在問題來了"},{"start":504.397,"end":528.541,"text":"大家想說為什麼要登記都以為要接受分配其實呢真正去登記志工這件事很重要我也要呼籲未來不管你有目的沒目的都拜託大家去登記因為除了要工作分配以外更重要的是志工登記了這個有保險的問題我這樣講沒錯吧"},{"start":532.142,"end":542.733,"text":"其實最應該在第一天就出現在現場的應該是勞動部我要問一個概念就是因為我們看到從這個媒體的報導還有我們在現場看到的"},{"start":548.078,"end":562.149,"text":"其實有不少的志工跟民眾已經是被這個玻璃碎片還有鐵片割傷還有這個鐵釘刺傷都有那光是花蓮慈濟醫院截至28日為止已經完成了502例的這個青創縫合手術了"},{"start":565.151,"end":581.442,"text":"再加上讓我們最難過的是日前桃園挖土機志工我們的怪手超人在第二天受傷但是他忍痛到第八天才就醫所以結果不幸就敗血症死亡"},{"start":583.203,"end":611.575,"text":"我想事前我們沒有看到勞動部有任何的提醒事後也沒有比較任何的有效的作為那剛剛我還很驚嚇的聽到部長的回答說我們要看看他那天是不是上班時是不是在上班還是怎麼樣我想大家對於這個志工跟保險的概念我想全國甚至包括部長都處於一個"},{"start":612.876,"end":639.162,"text":"不是很清楚的一個概念所以今天我想這個質詢我即便超過時間我也不願意我也不願意結束是因為我必須要把這件事情講清楚因為10月10月連假還會有更多的志工會往光復跑我們這個問題今天沒有在委員會講清楚沒有解決後面就會繼續發生更多的憾事所以"},{"start":640.646,"end":653.23,"text":"我想在這邊問一個概念就是說部長你覺得志工有沒有適用職安法就目前志工"},{"start":657.263,"end":684.479,"text":"跟委員報告如果是自願性去工作的話在職安法是以事業單位雇用勞僱關係為前提他是自願性前去工作他沒有事業單位的概念所以是不是用職安法我想這個是不是用職安法職安法或許他沒有寫的這麼清楚但是他整個精神你整個精神去跟他解釋的話"},{"start":686.812,"end":701.818,"text":"志工他是適用治安法的或許在一些特定的一些狀況那因為我們這一次這麼多的志工因為政府就是雇主"},{"start":703.188,"end":727.93,"text":"因為政府也有在呼籲我們需要志工到現場還有指揮調度的問題所以這些連結我想我提供這些你們可以好好的去想一想不要把我剛剛講的話當作開玩笑這些概念聯合加總起來志工"},{"start":729.696,"end":747.879,"text":"最終我們所以後面我剛剛前面剛剛一直有在呼籲拜託後續大家一定要去登記那這個登記我想還會牽扯到一個問題就是說我們在車站登記的時候他會大塞車啦"},{"start":749.284,"end":767.931,"text":"那大賽車的狀況你怎麼樣讓他比較快一點因為今天如果大家速度夠快的話你們可以快速看是有APP還是怎麼樣大家可以要去的可以提早現場去登記你們自己去想一下那個系統到底應該要怎麼處理"},{"start":769.158,"end":784.865,"text":"好那再來我要講一下就是說你們你們可以去看一下看一下這個就是說你們自己在勞動部113年11月29號才剛修正的勞動部推展"},{"start":785.425,"end":801.384,"text":"劳动志愿服务补助作业要点那这个要点也不是你们现在才定的你们可以做的事情很多除了志工的服务之外呢还有这个教育训练还有这个劳动志工意外事故保险的费用"},{"start":802.205,"end":830.31,"text":"我想要請部長好好看一下你們的要點為什麼這一次你們卻是因作為而無作為因要趕快立刻第一時間作為卻到現在還沒有很明顯的作為所以有這麼多的這個志工超人都受傷了然後甚至有的生得病了甚至死亡那勞動部有沒有事後可以補救的措施有嗎"},{"start":831.571,"end":848.525,"text":"跟委員說明的確勞務我們過去比較管轄的其實是所謂的勞工就是是在一個勞僱關係或者是有一個勞動對價上面的一個關係的這樣子的勞工的朋友這過去是我們比較管轄的範圍是在這個範圍裡面"},{"start":850.146,"end":867.398,"text":"所以不管是剛才講到職安法也好 災保法也好其實就法規來說的話比方說如果是純粹的志工的話的確沒有在災保法的適用範圍內但是我這邊要說的是說確實我們過去在有一些在作業安全上面因為"},{"start":868.308,"end":893.058,"text":"保安商職安署在這方面比較多一點的經驗所以我們也很願意來提供我們在這個在作業安全上面如果怎麼樣預防防範或者是這些風險管控的一些經驗來給我想現場的這個志工的朋友來作為這樣子的參考這部分我們願意來做我想這個要點的部分你們也回去好好再看仔細因為我要舉個例子啦其實"},{"start":894.489,"end":919.395,"text":"環境部他們的這個我剛講他的20里鴻溝本來是30公里啦那現在清了10公里但是他們有沒有需要志工很需要但是部長敢不敢登高一呼說我需要志工他不敢因為就是牽扯到這個保險的問題也怕志工受傷誰要負責所以"},{"start":920.897,"end":941.101,"text":"環境部長他還很主動的做了一件事情就是他去拜託經管會的主委說拜託你可不可以幫忙協調一下保險公司針對志工來設計這個保單剛剛衛福部長也有講到其實這些可能最早都應該我覺得應該是勞動部"},{"start":943.772,"end":958.387,"text":"也應該要參與去做的事情那可能部長的表情很扭曲我不曉得我一直覺得這個概念上大家還是有一點模糊所以這個部分我想我今天"},{"start":960.891,"end":980.698,"text":"大概 跟委員說明剛才其實我有在下面跟彭部長還有那個石部長我們就在討論是不是怎麼樣來協助志工的朋友那這個跨部會的協助志工朋友比方說有沒有可能用商業保險的方式來去做這樣的加保那這個保險的部分怎麼來設計我們剛才其實就是我們剛才下面的時候就一起討論這個問題"},{"start":982.111,"end":1001.128,"text":"對啦那因為主要志工他有個人的也有團體的那當然我們也不能說針對團體去做而已啦所以各式各樣志工的樣態你們都要掌握要了解然後都要想盡辦法讓這些志工們受到保障才行"},{"start":1002.089,"end":1026.027,"text":"我想大概我主要要表達的是因為在你們要點裡面你們是要商請全國性的志工團體在光復車站也要為這些志工們登記要提供這些旨在預防的建議甚至你們要派員去發放防護用品跟現場走動輔導所以這些你們都應該要好好掌握我想我們是"},{"start":1027.348,"end":1045.937,"text":"我去現場我去看了我有看到慈濟我也有看到有一些社團也有看到民進黨團黨部的這些志工們在現場在協助那但是我沒有看到勞動部的根文說明好其實我們因為這個"},{"start":1048.143,"end":1070.502,"text":"光復這邊其實是我們北分署的範疇所以我們其實在光復這邊其實我們有一個育理的就業中心那在這段時間育理的就業中心也不斷的跟縣政府包括跟鄉鎮公所去聯絡因為我們其實有一個零工的計畫如果有需的單位我們現在沒有要討論我跟你講你剛剛講到零工的計畫也是個問題今天會去現場幫忙的志工"},{"start":1071.638,"end":1095.713,"text":"沒有什麼人想要領錢的啦那個零工計畫跟志工是不一樣的事情我說零工計畫跟對不一樣的事情我時間已經到我們會把後續在作業安全上面如果有需要協助的部分的話那我們會來提供我們這樣的經驗讓現場志工在相關的工作裡面的作業安全有多一點可以參考的地方"},{"start":1095.933,"end":1109.277,"text":"對啊我真的很擔心我看你們表情一直就就是覺得我覺得那個志工的那個概念大家還是很模糊啦那但我覺得兩個部會其實都已經清楚了所以麻煩你們加油一下好不好好謝謝謝謝陳英委員發言那我們休息20分鐘"}]}},{"id":"163940","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163940","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0cfe714b1dd1ac824cea2f7e777e01e9590b149bf9762da924a35e1cf326b66635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:04:58 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部長因為畜牧場跟工廠是兩個部農業部跟經濟部他們要出的錢我們是負責清運 去化掉所以錢不一樣所以他們的確是要他們來認定"},{"start":278.467,"end":298.938,"text":"沒有 錢不一樣你就是統一收件嘛現在老百姓不管你錢從什麼地方出來的他只是要管你就是說你要不要給我收件嘛你收件起來的時候你應該要求台南市政府你補助他這麼多錢啊你起碼要求他是一個單一窗口來收件啊這樣子才不會造成民怨啊"},{"start":299.798,"end":321.157,"text":"委員我們這個來努力一下因為他們那個畜牧場農業部有一定的補助的費用然後工廠也有經濟部有一定的費用那我們來跟環保局討論一下如何整合成一個單一的窗口我跟你講有錢你也有整治就是說清楚的一個區域的一個垃圾的區域的一個方式可是你卡在程序上的話大家就怪你了"},{"start":323.939,"end":344.097,"text":"所以我們必須要有一點智慧來整理這個就是說在後的一個菁英的指揮中心就是由你來做這個總指揮這樣子的話中央的一個能量跟地方政府才可以有辦法齊心合作我們家園恢復才可以更快速"},{"start":346.199,"end":362.365,"text":"環境部不願意擔任這個中央一個統策的角色的話這個石棉瓦就會像多頭的馬車一樣一個效率很難提升啊這個責任大家在那邊互推啊我跟你講那個建山建山就是我們的局長他有能力啊你讓他走啦"},{"start":363.687,"end":378.167,"text":"好啦 他答應了啦他答應 那這樣更好啊那就表示我們今天的質詢有一個比較具體那我們也希望就是說可以提出最新還有最具體的一個時程讓民眾放心"},{"start":379.108,"end":395.562,"text":"主席我再問一下環境部因為我們受災的民眾其實身心靈受到很大的一個影響所以我請衛福部部長 市部長這個災後的重建要非常的用心尤其就是說本席辦了12場12場的疫診"},{"start":399.565,"end":421.203,"text":"發現到一個問題我們的災民都是腰痠背痛然後還有就是呼吸道的問題當然就是存在的一個石棉瓦的問題有沒有辦法就是說我知道你在花蓮你做得非常好當然花蓮這個整個情況我們其實我們這一個風災跟花蓮的這一個災難其實是不一樣的"},{"start":421.383,"end":433.182,"text":"可是有沒有機會就是說在台南的災後重建衛福部貢獻多一點的能量加碼就是我們保護我們的健康擴大有沒有機會"},{"start":434.557,"end":451.392,"text":"根文委員報告大概腰酸背痛這個算是比較短期啦但是長期有沒有受到這些失眠瓦因為這個對肺部的影響就比較長期那另外還有這個所謂的那個災難後的這個心理支持的部分"},{"start":452.172,"end":474.782,"text":"我來找這個新建師跟國建署我們共同來研議一下對這個災區過去這一段時間的就醫請你做一點分析心理支持的部分我想應該可以把它納入在我們未來的支持方案裡面我想這個心理諮詢其實就是在我的議診的過程當中很多人是看的"},{"start":475.362,"end":502.314,"text":"我本來以為說那個災民已經很軟弱了大概不需要什麼心理的治療結果發現他是比中醫更熱門的一個心理治療對 更委員報告這個確實在那個這個突然間的這個意外或者是緊急事件的時候初期那個CIS緊急狀況發生的時候還不會感覺但是過後之後就會慢慢進入到心理需要"},{"start":503.674,"end":522.099,"text":"復原重建的時候不然就會引發後面的PTSD這個我們來所以我想那個時部長你是醫生嘛你也當然知道就是說在醫療上在災後的一個重建齁這個其實也是重要的一環齁那我希望就是你加碼進來那那個一個月提計畫好不好好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝賴委員發言"}]}},{"id":"163950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0211cc2b044578ebfcea2f7e777e01e95441e0052ed6558bb4a35e1cf326b66635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:50:12 - 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部長我是在夜報上有看到環境部提出的解決方案"},{"start":188.143,"end":205.555,"text":"大部分都是屬於回田市就是回田到農地 回田到公有土地也有說要成立沙土的儲備中心去標售拿來做活化利用其中有一項叫做水泥原料"},{"start":206.696,"end":220.848,"text":"那基本上這個部分其實在前幾天秀林鄉的和平村也就是那個垃圾那個水泥廠的那個部分他們其實已經有得知這個消息還滿緊張的"},{"start":222.89,"end":238.21,"text":"所以特別想要了解一下因為那個地方的水泥廠它是台泥 它是氣化爐它不是一般的焚化爐所以它必須要經過分類而且還要乾化處理"},{"start":239.051,"end":260.371,"text":"那另外就是說他的那個地方的環差規定大概每天也只能處理200噸的一個垃圾所以這個部分對於台泥那個地方就是秀林鄉的和平村的村民來講其實他們會有點擔心會不會成為另外一個災民那部長這個部分您怎麼看"},{"start":260.891,"end":275.707,"text":"報告委員因為我也去台泥實際看他們的新的氣化廠過那目前的那個花蓮市大概是每天產製的熱水量170噸那有大概有30噸的空間啦但是這個跟這個因為我們現在的10萬噸或是未來100萬噸都要再篩分"},{"start":278.369,"end":294.524,"text":"垃圾歸垃圾這個泥沙淤泥歸泥沙所以未來呢應該是要逐步的去去化然後做妥善的處理一定要分類例如說他是可以燒的木材等等或是不可以燒要別的處理的要做資源回收啦目前我們是朝著這樣方向來進行所以"},{"start":297.643,"end":320.348,"text":"現在也有人提到就是填海造陸部長您有聽過嗎有那您怎麼看這要看喔因為我們填海造陸不可能把東部的這個土砂運到西部去這個整個價值來花更多的錢所以這的確是一個要去規劃的問題那當然啦那為什麼這麼多的學者專家如此建議"},{"start":322.409,"end":336.874,"text":"因為我們是來做實事的人建議都有各種的想法來做但是必須要考慮國家的財力還有如何去營運所以我們必須務實的來看這個問題所以現在的意思是說我們按照業報上的這幾種方法來做"},{"start":338.021,"end":352.612,"text":"要做個兩三年因為站到過去台灣或是全世界遇到這麼大型的製造廢棄物的經驗至少不是那麼快一天幾個禮拜就可以解決的意思就是說目前提出來的這些解決方案是最有效最經濟的嗎"},{"start":353.853,"end":375.607,"text":"對 當然或許因為我們現在也還沒有做定案這個除了要去爭取最佳的預算之外還要請到一些專家所以目前我們的確包含農業部也請了一些專家土壤的專家去看說有沒有辦法再做更好的利用因為如果要把它挖起來還要再做土壤的改良這個不是兩三年就可以完成的事情"},{"start":376.367,"end":391.258,"text":"因為這個部分如何分離這些淤泥跟垃圾還有這一些營建廢棄物 事業廢棄物這是一個很重大的工程所以具實在話我們看到那成堆成山的這些淤泥垃圾"},{"start":392.119,"end":408.446,"text":"我們心情也很沉重因為我們也在想我們一般廢棄物都很難處理這麼大量的垃圾到底要怎麼處理這個是一個很重要的課題所以希望我們衛福部這邊部長您要多花點心思那當然"},{"start":409.406,"end":434.395,"text":"我們還是要去讓取信於民因為現在大家都是不安心的所以我們還是希望說衛福部中央縣府共同提出光復鄉垃圾清運的解決方式那怎麼垃圾分離堆置場的選擇那什麼樣的一個做法那相關的規劃期程我覺得最起碼要公諸於讓所有的帶地的居民能夠了解可以嗎"},{"start":434.975,"end":450.846,"text":"會 可以 但是委員拜託給我們多一點時間因為我們還在救災 還在處理當地的衛生問題那大概需要多久我們至少要兩三個月 因為我們要爭取預算爭取預算 這最主要的關鍵那沒有關係 那就兩個月好不好好 謝謝 辛苦 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"163951","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163951","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff002e1ee5702b4083fcea2f7e777e01e95441e0052ed6558bba58ef45d272994b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:57:52 - 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不用再重做了"},{"start":282.833,"end":308.042,"text":"那你會不會覺得就像我上次跟你講的嘛前面的全部都放啦放完了以後才頒布規定要還平所以搞到你們頒布還平了以後到現在大家都不用申請還平了因為要過的全部都過啦鵝包委還有很多也想開發的例如說我們也被我們退回去要還平被退回去的屏東有好幾個案子所以基本上我們就照按照原來的法規制定走"},{"start":309.093,"end":325.326,"text":"原來的法規你講的是修正前還是修正後我們按修正後按修正後的規定我上一次問你的時候修正後針對這一種光電區的開發申請了幾件環評上一次你給我的答案是零件但現在累積到了幾件"},{"start":326.747,"end":350.46,"text":"之前 最近有送 包含屏東有幾個 屏東的三寶 那個被我們退回去那其他的話就是屬於路易福 其他的還有幾件其他的 這要問農研署沒有關係 一樣 會後 會後目前沒有 目前那個已經被我們退回去了所以只有一件嘛 對上一次是零件嘛 現在是一件嘛因為你剛回答的方式講的好像有很多件啊"},{"start":350.66,"end":371.912,"text":"沒有沒有沒有 其實全世界的環評光電壓環評也都是這兩年才發生的這個事沒有關係啦 先不用扯到全世界怎麼樣我們就針對問題回答嘛我上次問你告訴我是零件嘛今天我再問你一開始說好幾件現在講了半天只有一件被你們退回嘛那個算是三件三件 三件全部都被你們退回了好來 下一個問題"},{"start":376.927,"end":400.717,"text":"水滅型光電廠納入環評上次我質詢你這個問題的時候你們說你們會再討論會再研議嗎目前有結論了嗎目前其實不是只有這個還有其他的項目那因為在我們的環評的裡面的因環評的項目的執法裡面都有一些規定那我們定期都會檢視目前我們已經有這是你們新的規定沒有嗎所以我上次才會問水滅型還沒有你未來會加入嗎我們現在目前在討論這個事情還需要討論多久"},{"start":405.755,"end":419.413,"text":"因為我們剛發了一個問各式各樣的大家的意見 公眾的意見哪些需要加進去所以我們還要一段時間 可能一兩個月吧我一個觀念跟部長交換你們拖得越久"},{"start":420.706,"end":435.044,"text":"業者要搞就趁這段時間趕快搞包委員不會的為什麼不會現在不是不用環評嗎現在不用環評就跟屏東的山坡地一樣啊趁不用環評的時候趕快搞啊等到你們要環評的時候我已經搞完了啊"},{"start":436.025,"end":461.676,"text":"過去發生的事情不就是這樣嗎報告委員你說的那個大樹那個地方對不起我講的不是大樹的地方我現在前一個案子是屏東平和公路旁邊3D集團在搞的最近被檢調偵辦的案子我剛講啦之前不要環評啊依照你們新的規定要環評啊但是之前過了就過了現在拿他沒皮條啊"},{"start":462.83,"end":490.987,"text":"正是因為這樣的思維這樣的政策這樣子的法律適用我才會問你們水面型的環評還要評估多久嗎你說還要研議還要聽取社會各界的意見那我現在擔心的事情是什麼你們研議的越久大家就趁這段時間趕快搞啊我有說錯嗎就趁你們研議的時候我趕快搞啊等你們研議出來頒布法規的時候我已經搞完啊這樣就不用環評啊這樣不是在開"},{"start":493.535,"end":503.966,"text":"大開後門給業者嗎這個是我的質疑啊從前面發生的事情我覺得我今天提出來的質疑非常的合理啊部長我有說錯嗎"},{"start":506.243,"end":535.12,"text":"基本上這個也有主管機關 能源署他們會自己做判斷要不要還平的主管機關什麼時候變成能源署了能源署他們也是目的事業主管之一所以現在是環境部認為要不要還平這件事情由能源署決定是這樣嗎我們也在修正所以我才問你要修正多久嘛我們現在在預告我從頭到尾就在問這個問題啊我才請教你要修正多久啊我們希望快的話年底可以預告完整年底喔 我們再來看一下"},{"start":536.301,"end":540.146,"text":"國家風景區內烏山頭水庫設置光電盤要還比嗎這個是2022年的事情 是這個當年是不用的 現在呢現在我們的規定還沒有對嘛 未來可以討論嘛這個不就是我的point嗎"},{"start":555.29,"end":569.691,"text":"之前不用啊 你新的規定還是不用啊你現在在研議持續的不用啊在你不用的時間當中我就趕快做啊你覺得我現在是在危言聳聽嗎我直接代部長看啊當初山頭水庫"},{"start":571.024,"end":588.324,"text":"前一陣子大家發現上面有那麼大的光電板的時候雨晴一片華藍啊我後來開始去追這個案子的時候發現不得了啊現在做完了只是第一期耶做完了只是第一期耶第二期在哪裡第二期在今年夏天的時候"},{"start":589.125,"end":610.653,"text":"人家的法說會就已經講了我們烏山頭不是只有要做一期我們還準備要做第二期烏山頭二期水面型光電籌設作業進行中這個是現在進行式如果是現在進行式的話按照部長剛剛您給我們這麼清楚的法規範"},{"start":612.642,"end":637.174,"text":"生效前生效後現在還在研議當中的說明那等於就是告訴這個業者說現在還沒有規定要還平所以不用還平我們就繼續趕快搞不是這樣嗎這正是我擔心的事情這正是我擔心的事情為什麼上一次質詢的時候提出這個問題我們從具體的案子裡面就可以看得出來我們為什麼要關心這個問題"},{"start":640.762,"end":666.214,"text":"因為這是現在進行式啊按照你剛剛的說法100%用您剛剛的說明跟解釋這個第二期就不用環評啊 我有說錯嗎還是您認為說這不關環境部的事叫能源署拒絕叫能源署不准他再繼續在烏山頭水庫上面放光電板就好了這到底是誰的權責是環境部的還是能源署的還是你們要先開一個會再決定這是誰的權責部長我有說錯嗎"},{"start":672.935,"end":699.974,"text":"我有說錯嗎沒有啊exactly就是我的問題啊最後一個啦我們大家都要跟時間賽跑環境部要去聽社會各界的意見順便目的事業主管機關經濟部能源署的意見也聽一聽我都尊重但是我現在要告訴部長的是什麼相關的修法我們已經提出來了把它放在所謂的行政meeting當中"},{"start":701.508,"end":714.354,"text":"讓你們掌控本來是希望給你們彈性給你們方便希望你們好好做但是如果做出來是這麼令人失望的話那立法者別無選擇我們就只能透過立法來加以規範好 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萬榮這些地區都遭到這樣子的洪流沖刷大量的泥沙土石所掩蓋"},{"start":48.829,"end":78.272,"text":"那你在受訪的時候有說儘管淤泥量巨大那這些泥沙的土質相對的良好環境部門將會積極評估是否可以進行分類處理將其部分回收再利用而不是簡單進行的處理那這部分我是不是可以理解部長你就是願意負起這個青運的責任主責而且並且是樂觀的看待這些泥沙或者這些災害後的廢棄物的這些處理"},{"start":79.772,"end":95.257,"text":"因為它量很大我們是垃圾加淤泥大概十幾萬噸幾十萬噸然後淤泥的部分幾十萬噸的range到底是多少因為你從十幾萬變幾十萬那幾十萬又到快將近一百萬那這樣子大概是多少大概是一百萬噸以內"},{"start":96.237,"end":114.941,"text":"就是因為市區所以我那從十幾萬噸跳到一百萬噸以內不一樣因為十萬目前清出來十萬噸是淤泥加上垃圾垃圾混在一起然後另外一個是還有很高比例的是只有淤泥跟土砂那農業部大多數的大概有六七百萬噸是屬於這個淤泥"},{"start":117.884,"end":137.276,"text":"對所以我們剛剛說這個你說混雜的需要去把它這個篩分出來的對的量體可能快到100萬噸應該最多可能會到100萬因為有很多郊區的還沒有被清出來那還有一些是屬於這個垃圾野賣場的垃圾飄到農地去的所以我們估計大概100萬噸"},{"start":138.317,"end":160.414,"text":"所以你從十幾萬噸跳到快一百萬噸對 我們是用一百萬噸的量來做估計的好 部長你這個部分真的要很務實的面對不能這樣子數據Range差太大這是好幾倍的差異而且目前 清到目前為止應該你們應該有一個大概的估算了吧那你從十幾萬噸跳到快一百萬噸這個的確是一個很大的落差"},{"start":161.114,"end":172.258,"text":"對因為我們現在清的是市區然後還有一塊是農田的農田的這個垃圾加淤泥那塊那個是幾十公頃很大所以那個那塊我們算進來整個大概是100萬噸"},{"start":174.454,"end":201.216,"text":"那這個量體非常大等一下我們再繼續問下去好了那也隨著大家的通力合作之下大家當然有很多的志工或是中央地方單位其實一直清出來的量也越來越大像你剛剛說的幾十萬噸到幾百萬噸在農田的在市區的但它也衍生出一些問題比如說你挖出來的泥土它就堆置在房屋或是社區街道旁的空地"},{"start":201.937,"end":222.128,"text":"那還沒有來得及清運那現在可能是一堆泥土丘但是如果一下子下雨呢又被這泥土又沖到居民的房屋內也造成潛在的安全那如果沒有下雨剛剛有提到沒有下雨的話陽光的曝曬也會讓它裡面的有機物質開始揮發開始發臭發酸那目前"},{"start":223.311,"end":244.425,"text":"街道的狀況就像是這樣喔所以雖然說報導出來之後大家就很快的就是去想辦法清掉 清理完畢清理完畢喔可是因為它量真的很大那如果沒有被媒體報導的地方呢是不是也有這樣的問題而且你們的處理步驟怎麼樣它乾掉之後到處飛啊這個怎麼辦呢包委員 這個都是暫時的啦就是說有些"},{"start":245.245,"end":262.052,"text":"那我們的市區 主要的市區已經乾淨了但是有一些市區的旁邊的郊區有一些小空地的話 他們因為居民隨時都在清出來所以這樣的土堆一開始很多但是現在是越來越少當中啦所以我這個只是一個暫時在那個地方那還是會清到我們的站置場去"},{"start":262.372,"end":278.679,"text":"好那我另外再繼續問那排水側溝堵塞的問題也很嚴重所以剛剛前面也有委員有問到那也要趕緊處理那我想要請問一下他這個也會遇到兩個問題第一個我想請問以你們現在的話你認為什麼時候可以完全處理完雙十年價錢可能嗎"},{"start":280.62,"end":308.756,"text":"沒辦法因為目前這個是國土署在主政那國土署他們有詳細的算這個水流估計然後目前湧射了多少那昨天的數據是30公里裡面清了10公里那也謝謝很多的志工的幫忙在很多的測溝先那個測溝下面先挖出來那個基本上都是土砂為主並沒有什麼很大的一個廢棄物在裡面是以土 淤泥為主所以目前來看的話的確我們希望10月18號這個基本上可以通"},{"start":309.756,"end":328.18,"text":"我覺得這個在清理的部分可能也要請你跟這個指揮中心說剛剛有提到因為這裡面可能有很多的病菌細菌等等的相關的問題現在去幫忙協助的這些志工有沒有獲得完全的訓練或者裝備相關的他知不知道要怎麼去處理這個事我覺得這個可能可以反映"},{"start":328.94,"end":356.01,"text":"因為我都在現場去處理這個過程甚至我們給那個志工那個清淤的掃啦那基本上我看到志工他們因為當地有很多山林人士他們都有戴護目鏡口罩整個配備大概都有所以我們當然是以保護志工的安全那當然啦戶外一定會有些意外啦對部長不是我是覺得就是你看就是你的感覺都是講比較感覺性的東西我覺得這應該也是一個所謂的SOP的問題因為我覺得"},{"start":358.251,"end":385.53,"text":"面對所謂的這種災害的韌性當然志工也是一個環節幫忙投入去救災是個環節可是他究竟在這個救災的過程中你是不是應該依照這次的經驗然後充分的教育然後充分的看怎麼管理我覺得這也是我想我覺得要透過部長或者是包含這個時部長到時候應該是要在這次的經驗裡面要反映到中央指揮中在這個中央指揮所裡面的"},{"start":386.651,"end":406.326,"text":"應該要把這些東西記下來而且變且現在就要實時的去教育那再來有些淤泥啊你們現在採取佔置的方式但是大面積的泥土現在堆積的場域也是個問題所以例如在這個台九縣道路還有台塘土地裡面也都有堆積這些佔置的泥土"},{"start":407.086,"end":428.658,"text":"那這也可能造成這個原本的這個場地功能喪失那這部分呢場地的調度應該如何處理然後也再來就是希望我們是希望看到這個所謂的戰制因為未來你根本不知道怎麼好好的處理而且處理的時間不知道要多久變成了永久戰制本來所謂的戰制變成永久擱置在那"},{"start":429.352,"end":449.705,"text":"那所以導致現在的這些泥土就放在那結果風乾以後現在只要乾了之後它就變成塵土然後塵土飛揚就跟沙漠地帶沒有兩樣所以這種現象小的話它影響了視線大的話也會影響空氣品質而且在花蓮以往在災害發生之前"},{"start":450.886,"end":472.86,"text":"早就是有這種年年這種東北季風來的時候呢有很多的季風吹拂那就可能導致這個沙塵暴或甚至讓當地市縣行車市縣不佳的問題所以這個部分請問部長要怎麼處理然後以及所謂上面這個戰志的淤泥到底你們有沒有能力處理以及你到底要怎麼處理未來在這工作流程上面"},{"start":474.1,"end":492.966,"text":"其實包含紀政委開始進駐之後其實整個效率統合的縣政府速度顯著變快那每個這個村都有指揮官協調官還有軍方的也在協助 招喊志工所以其實指揮的體系是相對的跟過去相比健全很多那委員你這張圖呢是應該是第一個禮拜"},{"start":493.806,"end":521.267,"text":"很亂的時候當地幾乎是交通阻塞了完全是一個在戰場當中所以現在的這個情況已經不是這個樣子我們有覆蓋上去那這個也會近期也會把它清走到我們其他的大型的戰事場當中所以基本上我們先解救民眾的安全這種長期的問題是長期中長期的事情分兩個階段所以我們一定會確保把它完成我是認為現在當然有短中長期的計畫和短中長期的目標"},{"start":523.829,"end":551.55,"text":"但是你現在應該就在中長期就要規劃怎麼處理了所以因為現在短期大家已經在這個迅速的希望恢復災區的狀況可是這些東西是 即確是一個中長期的問題所以我剛剛說了我們不希望看到戰志變成永久擱置在那裡你到底要怎麼處理它所以委員我們已經在規劃了對 所以你剛剛講說這個照片跟現在可能不一樣我也要表達是說我們希望的是在講你的中長期的規劃要怎麼處理它"},{"start":552.21,"end":572.576,"text":"那再來這些泥土中當然不只是天然的這些砂石也可能參與一些有毒物質那包含媒體報導在說在整個這個災害的復原的過程中可能在中學接溝的側溝裡面發現有農藥罐的破裂散發這個刺鼻的異味也造成部分居民不適送醫"},{"start":573.516,"end":590.28,"text":"那所以請問這個環境部對於這個部分已經掌握的這些污染種類與濃度有哪些那再來就是你們會不會持續的進行所謂有毒物質的監測或者是本次災區其他的地方你們有沒有都去做一個盤點和測試"},{"start":592.981,"end":616.112,"text":"那個其實先把市民住的地方能夠清乾淨這是我們環境部還有整個指揮協調所最重要的一個責任那這個是一個單一的個案因為那個地方在那個地方被破掉了那當地也封起來也動用我們的這個清溝車把它都清掉了所以這是單一個案那至於土的部分我們其實已經啟動定期的去監測這個土石的這個污染有沒有"},{"start":616.752,"end":637.939,"text":"好我就是要講這個但是我覺得部長就是先不用一直說我們短期就是要解決這本來就是在做的事其實一直要講就是說你的下一步你可能要先想好我舉例好了有些時候現在大家可能會覺得再去缺什麼物資然後一窩蜂的用過去但是其實他下一步他目前需要的已經是足夠了"},{"start":638.519,"end":656.266,"text":"他下一步呢接下來我們現在想的是他的家園恢復之後要怎麼提早幫他規劃所以我講的意思是這樣我們將提點我們現在問的問題都是希望說那你下一步要先想好所以最後再也簡單再問一下有關於這個居民跟居房的清理最後的最後一里路"},{"start":657.146,"end":675.845,"text":"其實我們的團隊本席辦公室團隊也有去現場擔任志工那也遇到實際上說清洗車不足的問題那我想問部長這部分是不是有去協調啊調派相關的資源讓最後災民的房子能夠完成清洗然後真正回到災害前的狀態因為"},{"start":677.406,"end":701.189,"text":"一開始這個全台的各地的車子全部都湧入了所以當地都大塞車那些車一開始是沒有用的後來呢就回去了現在呢我們也要再拜託他們再回來所以說真的委員好好的調度是很重要的沒錯這就是我們想要表達的因為這個災害發生的時候其實我們一直在強調所謂的任性任性任性可是災害發生的時候你說全部的車都湧"},{"start":702.21,"end":729.165,"text":"涌入 這個時候你並沒有達到資源的有效應用就你讓他回去 現在要再回來不是我讓他回去的不是你 不是你我會說這個整件事情這個在整個災害發生的時候這個可以之後再來檢討對 所以我認為在這一次的過程中環境部也有一定的責任把你們所屬的業務包含所謂的災害的廢棄物的清理然後面對這次的災害你們未來SOP是什麼你的流程是什麼"},{"start":729.645,"end":744.59,"text":"然後包含一開始我們凸顯的就是說你那個估算的值啊差異這麼大沒有客觀的估算你怎麼去真正的設計未來這個整個工作流程你要怎麼去解決他這是我要講的那再來呢謝謝彭部長我想要請勞動部紅部長以及我們的這個石部長謝謝"},{"start":756.377,"end":776.228,"text":"我想要一起問的原因是因為其實今天還有一個很大的問題就是說這次的讓大家看到台灣人很有感情和溫度的地方就是我們志工大量的湧入對不對所以剛剛有說這個第一天第一天4萬多第二天4萬多然後瞬間三天湧入大概12萬多的這樣子的志工"},{"start":777.128,"end":795.495,"text":"那災區有很多的志工這些都是有熱情也關心這個土地的民眾那因此他組成然後過去那但是有專業的人士當然有一般民眾純粹是因為熱情然後想要去救到了現場但是就會有一定的危險性所以我們昨天也看到這個挖土機的"},{"start":797.055,"end":823.366,"text":"這個公司的老闆喔在災害中受到了工作傷害受到了傷害喔這個結果最終導致送醫補治這樣的憾事所以我想在這整個過程中呢我們勞動部跟我們衛福部在這部分你們究竟有沒有達到所謂的教育訓練或者是事前宣導這樣子的動作的流程那你們各自可不可以講一下在你們的部會應該怎麼去做"},{"start":826.742,"end":846.914,"text":"我還是要先跟委員說明因為就那個林老闆的這個案例目前我們還在跟家屬那也包括跟他的工協會在確認他到災區的救災行為是單純的志工行為還是有在執行有這個勞務對價的職務我們還在確認這件事情"},{"start":852.538,"end":868.628,"text":"所以部長您這有兩個層面針對這個案的層面是一個這個案層面要請部長趕快去確認我們才知道說後續應該怎麼做所以這等一下本席也會問到但是另外一個層面就是說面對這麼大量突然來的志工"},{"start":869.508,"end":885.395,"text":"我相信如果有妥善的教育訓練或是妥善的安排不會發生太多的憾事可是其實目前為止聽到也非常多的狀況包含所謂的熱衰竭包含著輕側溝的時候手指被壓斷包含這個因為傷口感染"},{"start":886.395,"end":900.996,"text":"那我覺得大家秉持著一個熱心到了現場但是我們沒有統一的指揮調度跟沒有統一的做教育訓練我覺得導致後面的這些憾事我覺得是一個比較我們也需要去檢討的地方"},{"start":901.457,"end":918.173,"text":"第一個是說因為的確這一次志工的數量真的是超過我想過去我們其實在這個很多救災的過程裡面其實預估因為過去我們比較比較多沒關係部長那我這種比較組織性的"},{"start":918.373,"end":945.048,"text":"部長所以我想要問我們現在有請職安署我有請職安署那針對現在如果志工的這些作業行為那尤其是如果這個涉及到安全防護的話那請職安署我們來跟相關單位包括在現場他的一些虛工的需求的單位來去確認那我們會來定一個相關的指引跟注意事項所以換句話說就是這一次是並沒有做到嘛沒有做這個宣導安全作業上的安全的職責對不對"},{"start":946.248,"end":967.607,"text":"應該不是沒有做到其實我想陸陸續續包括行政院包括其實一直有在跟大家說明說在安全上面要去注意然後哪些東西注意那當然我們現在也我們會把這個部分再訂得更仔細一點這樣子我認為這是完全需要這個去檢討的地方也包含衛福部這邊你們說拍宣導影片可是其實這好像都已經很後續了"},{"start":968.328,"end":990.78,"text":"在事前都沒有做一個充分的出來的時候發現有很多志工要去之前本來有多少志工你就應該最好是可以統一的去做管理和調度才不會需要專業人士的時候到現場不知道要幹嘛然後專業人士去做不需要專業人士做的事然後不專業的人去做需要專業人士或是要有足夠裝備去做的事情"},{"start":991.56,"end":1011.863,"text":"我覺得這個部分是不是應該要包含衛福部在之前教育訓練的時候比如說你有傷口你在清澈溝的時候是有問題的你是不能夠去做這件事的你可能會感染或者是像勞動部雖然他們並非是勞工可是比如說什麼熱衰竭的這個宣導你要一定要怎麼樣補充水分我覺得這個"},{"start":1013.044,"end":1034.712,"text":"你們應該要訂出一個SOP對吧跟委員報告就是說按照志願服務法如果你這個是這個有組織性的志工團體他每年有一定的那個教育訓練的時數那至於他的教育訓練內容應該涵蓋哪一些我們可以訂一些指引讓大家未來都是可以你的指引要盡速訂出來"},{"start":1035.632,"end":1060.6,"text":"那第二個當然這一次是比較意外的是這個志願性發動有民間發動的這個就是沒有比較不具組織性的這種志工那這個量確實是過去沒有遇到過這麼大那運用的單位也各自不一樣但是呢我們有針對健康的部分特別是這個"},{"start":1062.481,"end":1076.751,"text":"這個自我保護的部分有提出來那包含這個飲食傷口還有這個清潔等等這些我們有特別去提出那這個我們把它納入未來這個固定的時候去做提醒這樣"},{"start":1078.032,"end":1100.604,"text":"我認為這次應該要交一個類似面對災害的這個檢討的報告就是等事後 等現在救災到一段時間可是這個過程中你們都應該要把它記錄下來這個才是所謂的任性在改造不然我們過去一直講任性任性這次看起來就是海水退了就發現我們的所謂的任性計畫 投了錢然後要做這些事結果沒穿褲子"},{"start":1101.664,"end":1126.977,"text":"好那我想要再進一步問就是這位不幸的這個挖土機超人林老闆所以剛剛目前說行政院說會發20萬位問津那剛剛我們的勞動部長我們紅部長說要先去確認說他這個關係到底是不是符合所謂的這個因為職業災害導致的問題然後他們有沒有被收顧或是完全是志工這個是部長現在說要去確認的"},{"start":1128.018,"end":1150.923,"text":"好那今天再麻煩部長要儘速確認但另外我想要請問喔就是如果他就是志工的話就保險層面的理賠是不夠的那目前說行政院說發20萬但是依照衛福部的辦理災害救濟捐款專戶衛問金發放要點的第4點第4項這個部分衛福部是不是可以進行專案處理"},{"start":1152.982,"end":1174.447,"text":"這個部分畢竟他是一個志工然後他真的到現場或是他去現場幫助救災所以導致他喪失他的生命那他又是他家庭跟公司的頂樑柱所以我認為這20萬是遠遠不夠的那這有沒有可能是可以比照災民的慰問金用專案的方式處理這部分請衛福部長 石部長回答"},{"start":1175.479,"end":1200.635,"text":"跟委員說明就是我們在這個死亡慰問的部分是分兩塊一個是公務預算的部分就是20萬我們現在的災民都是這樣處理那另外一個呢是由這個震災基金會的募款去支應的那個是80萬那那個是要用是按照這個他的辦法是天然災害致死啦所以這個條件上呢確實是不符合"},{"start":1201.3,"end":1217.415,"text":"所以也沒有辦法用專案的方式他這種算不算天然災害完然後去救濟然後致死去幫助志工致死因為這個未來會有很多不同的這個判定上會很困難"},{"start":1219.474,"end":1248.664,"text":"好這部分我希望說部長要回去研議一下就是說這有沒有可能是專案的方式來處理不然當然我們覺得是先等待這個洪部長他確認完他的這個身份或是他的補助的這個救濟的辦法裡面他到底是什麼身份去那裡救災我覺得這個部分等勞動部出來之後要請石部長去研議說如果他的這個補償是不夠的有沒有可能用專案的方式進行好"},{"start":1250.421,"end":1279.99,"text":"好 再來就是在重大災那個洪部長您可以回座位我再接下來問石部長在重大災害中那災區的物理復原可以那還有大量的資源流入所以加速復原但是災民面對的心理創傷是很難平復的那我知道你們現在當然有心理支持但我想要請問那針對這樣的心理輔導支持方案有沒有同樣開放給這些所謂的產子超人或是志工來使用"},{"start":1280.71,"end":1296.351,"text":"因為其實在921的時候可能很多志工到了現場看到滿目倉儀的狀況他回去也是有心理上面需要被支持的方案那想要請問一下部長這部分好跟我們報告我們有一般性的這個目前有的心理支持包含專線"},{"start":1298.212,"end":1320.002,"text":"1925包含就是一般性的部分然後我們為了這個災難我們會再起一個案子就如同委員這邊秀出來的PTSD這個創傷症候群是在往後可能會出現的所以他需要心理的支持所以我們會在這個禮拜內就會提出下一個階段的心理支持方案"},{"start":1321.657,"end":1338.674,"text":"會納入那個包含救災的還有志工的好 我覺得這個部分很重要要請部長好好的處理那最後一個問題請問部長目前針對災民的健保費減免因為花蓮有去年大地震的時候有減免的潛力那目前有沒有規劃如果有預計減免什麼時候會不會選我們會比照"},{"start":1342.017,"end":1359.727,"text":"然後按照這個行政院所公告的災區那災民的醫療費用三個月的這個醫療費用裡面的部分負擔都是免的那另外健保費的部分是六個月免繳所以就是這個部分要那什麼時候預計什麼時候實施開始實行"},{"start":1361.628,"end":1390.257,"text":"我們應該這個禮拜內就會公告了好 謝謝 謝謝石部長所以我想要總結以上基本上過去可以看得出來過去我們一直不斷的在喊所謂的任性任性然後災害任性常常跟日本交流也說我們都是天災很多的國家我們要互相交流所謂任性的計畫面對災害的可是這一次面對到這樣的災害可以明顯的看出來我們的準備是完全不足夠的而且也沒有真的在制定所謂面對災害的這些"},{"start":1391.377,"end":1418.207,"text":"任性計畫SOP這個流程甚至連估算都有問題然後連志工的訓練或者志工的這個管理統一調度都有問題那我認為這次要藉這次的機會應該要等要開始去把這個過程中可以吸納的經驗全部都吸取下來然後制定一個下次面對災害的時候才可以有真正的任性而不是口號 謝謝"},{"start":1419.402,"end":1420.586,"text":"對於志工的動員 我們會再來檢討好 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宣讀完畢本次會議由財政我們先介紹一下我們先介紹我們今天與會的政府官員"},{"start":1340.919,"end":1351.504,"text":"我們先介紹行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝 陳主計長 歡迎財政部部長 雙翠雲 雙部長內政部 劉世芳 劉部長 歡迎國防部 顧立雄 顧部長 歡迎教育部 政醫藥 鄭部長"},{"start":1370.058,"end":1390.396,"text":"部長 歡迎經濟部 龔明星 龔部長 歡迎部長勞動部 我們部長有跟我請假今天來與會的是常務次長 陳明仁 陳次長 歡迎你農業部 陳俊記 陳部長 歡迎部長"},{"start":1394.702,"end":1404.456,"text":"衛生福利部也是由政務次長呂健德理事長來代理與會好 歡迎海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲 管竹偉 歡迎"},{"start":1407.508,"end":1432.682,"text":"其他的我們的官員就請大家參與我們的議程表本次會議由財政 內政 外交及國防 經濟 教育及文化社會福利及衛生環境委員等六個委員會來聯席今日安排審查行政院函請審議中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案114至116年度"},{"start":1435.143,"end":1452.933,"text":"我們預算提案今天10月8號上午10點截止收案現在將依序請下列相關部會首長就特別預算案的內容進行報告請簡短摘要報告首先我們請行政院主計總署陳主計長進行特別預算內容報告好請"},{"start":1460.649,"end":1474.548,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀列席聯席會議就中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案編列情形提出報告自感榮幸"},{"start":1475.729,"end":1503.214,"text":"會因應美國的關稅變革提升產業競爭韌性以及面對地緣政治急速變化繼續強化國土防衛能量所以行政院依照大院8月29號審議修正通過之條例來編列以上限5700億來分期編列特別預算那預算案的編制編制所需經費的來源是以用以前年度稅基剩餘或舉借債務來支應"},{"start":1506.362,"end":1530.319,"text":"本條例和特別條例施行期間是114年3月12到116年12月31日本總署依照上開的規定院長的提示以支持產業安定就業照顧民生強化任性四大主軸來編劇完成因應國際情勢強化社會經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案主要內容"},{"start":1531.36,"end":1539.348,"text":"第一個除了預留後續額度200億站位編列稅數編列5500億元是114年到116年分別編列2795億元1242億元及1463億元那機關別的一個編列情形說明如下"},{"start":1551.44,"end":1578.782,"text":"一 內政部主管編列112億元包括辦理老宅延壽機能復興計畫強化環孔維安能量及關鍵基礎設施安全防護能力等那國防部主管編列1132億元包括辦理居民之通作業環境韌性與設備效能提升計畫等財政部主管編列2500億元包括辦理強化民眾消費韌性普化現金以及"},{"start":1580.303,"end":1593.49,"text":"企业贸易融资利息减码和输出保险费用减免等手续费用市教育部主管编列200亿元包括提升大专院校校务经营及支持高教与产业合作"},{"start":1594.659,"end":1618.345,"text":"共賠人才等五 經濟部主管編列461億元包括協助受美國關稅政策影響的製造業者協調體質以提升產業競爭力等六 勞動部主管編列250億元包括撥補勞工保險基金辦理政府部門公共服務上工專案等七 農業部主管編列191億元"},{"start":1620.586,"end":1628.134,"text":"包括辦理強化農業外銷冷凍體系獎勵業者拓展美國高端外銷市場等"},{"start":1631.212,"end":1651.623,"text":"衛生福利部編列 主管編列361億元包括波普全民健康保險基金辦理強化獨居老人關懷服務計畫等海洋委員會主管編列296億元包括辦理海域增縮和巡防裝備籌建及各級巡建"},{"start":1652.143,"end":1681.218,"text":"巡航舰艇筹建及海巡基地设施强化等那正是别的编列以经济发展支出3191亿元居首举以请参阅以上所需的财源5500亿元编列以前移用以前年度税金剩余4444亿元还有举借债务1056亿元之印以上报告进行主席及各位委员女士先生会议指教并鼎力支持谢谢"},{"start":1682.196,"end":1690.997,"text":"好謝謝我們主委長接下來我們請財政部莊部長來就預算特別內容來做報告好請"},{"start":1696.448,"end":1723.944,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早今天貴委員會召開聯席會議審查任性特別預算案以下僅就裁員的籌措提供以及提供企業金融支持和普發現金的預算編列情形做簡要的報告首先就裁員籌措跟債務控管的部分說明根據特別條例的規定所需的經費上限是5700億元為了因應美國關稅措施可能的衝擊所以第一階段"},{"start":1724.404,"end":1741.379,"text":"特别预算案总经费是编列5500亿元执行期间是从114年的3月12号到116年的12月31号那么裁员的规划是移用以前年度的税计剩余是4444亿元另外要举借债务1056亿元"},{"start":1743.601,"end":1762.351,"text":"那麼本任性特別條例是從114年起執行執行期間另外有114年度的中央政府的總預算還有前瞻基礎建設等各項特別預算總預算以及特別預算的舉債合計數呢在該期間總預算以及特別預算稅出合計數是8.1%那麼低於15%上限的規定"},{"start":1767.233,"end":1773.638,"text":"在債務存量的部分截至114年的9月底中央政府長期債務的實際數是5,8379億元佔前三年度明目GDP的平均數是24.3%"},{"start":1781.61,"end":1798.04,"text":"而114年度長期債務餘額的預算數則是根據公債法的規定把113年底長期債務餘額的實際數加計歷年特別預算融資調度的保留數以及114年度預計的舉借數另外要扣除我們的債務還本數以後"},{"start":1799.481,"end":1818.467,"text":"所以预估114年底的长期债务余额是6兆5824亿元那么占前三年度明目GDP的平均数是27.4%那么符合公债法所规定的债务存量的上限40.6%的规定那么本特别预算属于财政部主管的部分我们是编列了2500亿元"},{"start":1820.648,"end":1842.363,"text":"這裡其中包括了提供企業的金融支持編列那麼我們會透過中國輸出入銀行辦理貿易融資利息減碼及輸出保險費用的減免那麼所需經費是140億元那第二個部分是辦理普發現金的情形那麼所需的經費是2360億元這包括了普發現金所需的經費是"},{"start":1845.464,"end":1869.351,"text":"1356亿4696亿元那么这是根据本国的国民在7月底全国人口数已经推估6个月内出生的新生儿以及外籍人士取得永久居留证和大陆地区人民以及港澳居民以及外国人为我国国民的配偶等等取得居留许可的人数我们按每个人1万元来计算另外为了使普发现金能够顺利推动"},{"start":1869.811,"end":1890.904,"text":"我們提供了多元的管道讓民眾領取因此編列了相關的發放的手續費還有系統徵休等等需要兩億兩千六百餘萬元那麼在網路服務客服的服務以及行政廣宣費用大編列了一億兩千六百餘萬元那麼以上的報告敬請各位委員會以支持以及指教謝謝好 謝謝莊部長接下來我們請經濟部龔明星 龔部長來做報告"},{"start":1905.856,"end":1932.127,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天為聯席會審查因應國際形勢強化經濟社會以及民生國安任性特別預算案本特別預算案有關於本部所主管編列的是460億元僅依各項業務主要的內容跟預算編列的情形進行報告進行各位委員指教摘要報告如下"},{"start":1934.088,"end":1950.682,"text":"第一大项是有关于提升产业竞争力250亿元的部分主要的内容包括了AI市产线场域的升级计划编列了16.5亿第二是有关于协助受影响的制造业"},{"start":1952.043,"end":1974.996,"text":"體質調整203.5億元那這個主要的內容是我們會成立產業的輔導團來進行中小企業跟傳統產業的這些訪視、診斷跟輔導甚至於提供金融跟管理上的一些諮詢上的一些協助第二是補助業者研發創新跟設備的太舊換新朝向這個雙軸的轉型"},{"start":1977.922,"end":1989.395,"text":"第三項是有關於推動服務業的AI應用人才的培育是1.5億元第四個是提升商業服務的營運據點編列的是25億元"},{"start":1993.391,"end":2016.97,"text":"第五项是推动中小为AI人才的培育计划编列的是3.5亿元第二大项的部分是协助企业开拓多元的市场总共编列金额是100亿元其中包括了我们怎么样协助企业调整海外的布局措施总共是70亿元这里面包括了补助企业布建海外的行销"},{"start":2017.891,"end":2040.997,"text":"通路根據點而且加碼工學會廠商的海外參展的一些經費那第二個就是強化貿易管理總共17億元主要在經濟貿易管理的工具以加強監督輔導並且呢協助廠商符合合法的遵循標準跟便利出口的相關措施"},{"start":2042.017,"end":2061.294,"text":"第三個就是深化與有盟國家的經貿合作13億元主要是因為我們要多元開展市場所以要辦理比較國際前端的產業資料庫掌握廠商的商情跟股權相關的資訊有利於我們部件海外通路"},{"start":2062.847,"end":2082.103,"text":"那第三大項是提供企業的金融支持總共一百一十億元那包括兩項第一項是外銷貸款優惠保證加碼的六十億元那這個是針對受到美國關稅直接或間接影響如果你的營業額減少了百分之十的進出口廠商"},{"start":2083.044,"end":2098.093,"text":"提供了融資保證並且減免中小企業前兩年保證的手續費的一些收入也提供信保的一些支持第二個是針對中小企業多元發展方案貸款方案裡面的加碼50億元"},{"start":2099.434,"end":2126.653,"text":"同樣的也是因為直接間接受到關稅的影響百分之十以上的話那我們會提供在一定額度裡面的這個利息補貼跟這個保證程式以上報告 敬請各位委員先進會議指教謝謝好 謝謝我們龔部長接下來請國防部顧部長國防部顧立雄部長"},{"start":2134.8,"end":2161.132,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員先進打好今天奉邀參加大院因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案報告以下請就本部主管特別預算案編列進行做簡要說明進行各位委員先進指教"},{"start":2162.369,"end":2188.815,"text":"一 特別預算編制概要鑒於中共近來頻繁以非社傾倒並軍事行動威懾嚴重擾亂我國安與民生經濟發展國安部以規劃一百一十五至一百一十六年執行強化國土防衛能量及提升資通作業環境及設備等兩大措施六項方案以強化國防與民生運作韌性後續就"},{"start":2190.499,"end":2209.904,"text":"兩大措施及六項方案預算編列該要報告一強化國土防衛能量辦理國軍各式重要軍品修物工廠軍用碼頭軍事醫療訓練場地資訊通信作戰陣地戰情指管等庫儲設施維護及整建以及"},{"start":2211.58,"end":2219.464,"text":"國軍重要武器系統零附件飲用水、油料戰備存量及公民機械籌補作業等所需經費總計428億5,778萬4千元"},{"start":2226.594,"end":2244.943,"text":"提升自動作業環境及設備為滿足通訊機動與備援目標規劃各本外離島作戰區指揮所指管通訊設施機動化並引進衛星通訊雲端作業環境備援及光纖緊急搶修套件以應對中共刻意迫害我通訊聯絡"},{"start":2246.665,"end":2260.937,"text":"確保通信韌性編制概要說明如後辦理資通作業環境及設備提升及其他附屬資源裝備購置租賃整合與其相關資源系統裝備獲得產製維修工程等所需經費總計703億2998萬元個案需求分數如次居民資通作業環境韌性以設備效能提升計"},{"start":2268.644,"end":2284.79,"text":"需563億元二 指管系統韌性職安防護系統擴充 寄需24億8751萬元三 居民共同圖像系統 寄需5億元四 戰區通知基礎設備提升 寄需107億5802萬元網傳作業設備補充 寄需2億8445萬元"},{"start":2295.564,"end":2324.177,"text":"預期效應一 集中資源整建快速提升戰力面對區域安全及環境災害之急嚴峻應用特別預算支援集中快速籌貨特性快速籌貨足量經費應對威脅變動快速提升國境整體戰力二 強化國土安全建構防衛韌性為確保遭受攻擊及災害應變韌性需建構機動備援軍民通用直通系統架構以保持通信暢通另需儲備物資改善"},{"start":2325.817,"end":2350.223,"text":"庫儲訓場 整備工兵機具 延長作戰持續力三 增加國內採購 擴大內需產能本次特別預算將應用國內資通及營造實力擴大內需產能 提升產業附加效益約計1941億餘元達成國防與民生雙贏目標四 扶植有氧廠商 深化均勻整合全愛未來將持續帶動民間廠商投入國防產業"},{"start":2351.383,"end":2356.768,"text":"深化居民技術整合結合國行需求擴增產能強化供應鏈使國行產業穩定發展"},{"start":2359.618,"end":2387.047,"text":"本次特別預算通過將結合軍事救災及促進國內經濟動能需求攜手打造能穩定持久的國防體系國防部將持續陸力戰備準備工作將支援耗費最大效益因應當前嚴峻歧視並達成測驗災防自變守護人民之決心本部將確準特別條例規範在法定額度內如期如止完成各項裝備採購作業以上報告進行各位委員會議指教並鼎力支持 謝謝"},{"start":2388.991,"end":2405.869,"text":"好 我們謝謝顧立雄部長今天因為時間的關係我們登記委員非常的多所以其餘各部會的報告請各位參閱書面報告另外今天財委會有借紅樓101會議室後面的"},{"start":2409.331,"end":2426.058,"text":"站著的官員可以到紅樓1014那邊有開放的電視可以收看我們整個議事的內容所以請大家不要站著不要客氣可以移駕到101會議室接下來"},{"start":2428.404,"end":2452.04,"text":"我們現在開始詢答我先做以下的宣告每位初期委員這個發言時間為4分鐘必要時得延長1分鐘每位列席委員那個列席委員發言時間是3分鐘今天上午10點截止發言登記現在我們就請登記順序第一位的林德福委員來發言請"},{"start":2467.54,"end":2484.411,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請這個國防部顧部長還有這個財政部的莊部長還有主計長 陳主計長好 請主計長 顧部長還有莊部長委員好"},{"start":2496.616,"end":2511.319,"text":"你好首先我要特別請莊部長跟主席長因為很多民眾在關心到底我們普發一萬元是不是這個月底以前會花放部長"},{"start":2512.297,"end":2528.604,"text":"跟委員報告那根據特別條例就有規定要特別預算公佈後一個月內就可以開始發放所以我們要看特別預算最後經過大院審議三讀通過總統公佈後我們一定會在一個月內以內就開始做發放的作業好 謝謝那另外我再請教那個顧部長"},{"start":2536.684,"end":2550.632,"text":"我們現在我上次在院會裡面有請教過你我們到底跟美國買的武器有多少錢已經給了到現在為止武器沒來而且錢還在那裡你告訴大家"},{"start":2552.485,"end":2580.722,"text":"跟委員報告我想現在相關的武器陸續的到那也都在有多少錢我是問你有多少錢的武器還沒有來已經給那麼久了你要跟大家講讓大家了解我想最主要大概有三個項目一個是這個我們預計在明年底到的一個F16戰機的部分那另外一個是"},{"start":2583.204,"end":2604.743,"text":"HM154C這個部分是配合這個X6的那個不管總共多少錢你告訴我讓大家了解嘛有多少錢的武器在美國很早就給錢到現在武器沒來嘛我想我們並沒有很早就給錢因為相關的這個付款的時間有一定的時程這個部分我們是不是請這個站位師來說"},{"start":2606.125,"end":2617.177,"text":"這是國會殿堂喔 不能亂講喔是 包委員我們所有的軍購的付款都是依據美方寄帳單裡面要求我們付款的時間來付那我們付款"},{"start":2618.277,"end":2646.005,"text":"5G有沒有到嘛就不會有他在沒有需求款項的情況之下提前付那如果說美方進度不如預期的時候這些錢也會進到他的FRB裡面一樣會產生知己當然到目前為止我們管控的預算裡面這個數目在我們今年五月份和美方召開財務管理會議之後已經大幅把這個數字下修而且把必要的項目能夠刪除我們就刪除"},{"start":2646.48,"end":2648.848,"text":"還有多少嘛額度多少你要跟大家講啊"},{"start":2650.697,"end":2679.666,"text":"巴尔委员我们总共目前我们付出去的总额300余亿的整个美金的军购案里面我们实际支付的是108亿左右但是这些项目里面多数都是处于已经交付的状况当中所以委员问到说我们是不是有提前去支付这些钱没有使用的这个我们必须和美方计算才有办法回答委员"},{"start":2680.626,"end":2700.541,"text":"還要跟美方計算對這個我認為你們有點掩飾因為你武器給多少剩下多少沒有進來我們給錢這個你要公開透明對不對不能說給了錢以後我們又不是拿去支息的對不對"},{"start":2702.179,"end":2730.926,"text":"報告委員 美方的這個軍火工業裡面只要他已經進入產線的項目我們就得支付款項他就屬於一個執行中的案子他不是等到交付之後我們才有辦法給錢不是 給了錢以後就遙遙無期然後名義上是買武器實際上給錢以後就放在那裡自習其實這個也不是我們要的是 但這個項目我們已經把這個額度已經大幅的下修了"},{"start":2731.653,"end":2760.64,"text":"因為你們到現在為止都不敢把那個多少額度在那裡給了錢武器沒來然後後續還要再今年又編列9495億對不對國防預算跟委員報告我想主要是重點有兩個一個就是說他還沒有到達這個應該付款的時間點我們就不會付款那縱使我們把錢匯出去到FRB的帳戶裡面那個還是屬於我們控管的而且仍然在那邊產生支息"},{"start":2761.34,"end":2775.611,"text":"那就這個相關的這些武器的部分大概剛剛提到的AGM-154CF-16預計還是我們期望在明年年底以前能夠交易 好啦那另外還有Mk-48的魚雷你們回去啦 我下一個題啦因為 跟你們講你們也大概不清清楚楚的說告知國人 你們回去啦因為跟你們講 講一百次你們也不會很坦誠的跟大家告知那個 我來請處紀長來"},{"start":2791.718,"end":2816.315,"text":"主席長 是我想今年整個預算因為以前全部都是統三讓你們去調整你要薪資渡民今年是不可能的讓你翻倍你就隨便而且會因應整個國際的情勢強化整個經濟社會及國土的安全那這個國土安全的韌性中央左邊的特別預算高達五千五百億"},{"start":2817.577,"end":2825.09,"text":"這個有媒體來評論說裡面是包山包海充斥著藐視的是以前的這個"},{"start":2826.738,"end":2855.76,"text":"就像以前的前瞻非常空幻的支出名目導致內容行政院提出的特別預算把各種可以想像目標全部都塞進去凡是勞健保的基金 資通環境乃至於教育人才培育全部都涵蓋已看不出和一般年度預算有什麼區別有媒體這樣的披露因為時間到了你就用一個書面因為你現在是包山包海"},{"start":2856.513,"end":2863.78,"text":"好 那個主席長就請用書面來回答好 謝謝林德福委員接下來請吳秉瑞委員主席麻煩請主計長跟財政部長好 請陳主席長還有莊部長"},{"start":2884.215,"end":2898.196,"text":"委員好今天這個預算編列總數是5700億但是因為那個強化台電的那個電網的韌性那200億已經被上次在談的時候就被拿掉所以你這次是編了5500億對不對"},{"start":2899.818,"end":2923.095,"text":"不是 我們總經費是5700億然後5500億是這一次預算然後留200億是放在後續要編列所以那個強化電網是後續會過強化電網本身就刪除了所以那個就沒有編在這裡面所以將來還會再有另外200億的那個200億是另外的就是說也是產業方面將來如果是有不足的部分再來續編這個最佳的一個部分"},{"start":2923.615,"end":2947.231,"text":"那裡面最大條的就是要普發現金2360億是可是你一用前幾年的稅計剩餘前三年的稅計剩餘累積了才4000多億對不對對 舉債要1000多億所以我們還得借1000多億的錢1056所以就是說我用比較簡單的口語話就是請教你說等於我們要借1000多億來發這2360億是"},{"start":2952.13,"end":2972.677,"text":"因為之前的稅計剩餘加進來再加這1000多餘才夠這次預算的5700億是不是這樣的意思部長是不是這樣的意思我看你的報告裡面是這樣沒有錯是的那這樣合理嗎我們的財政狀況有好到這種地步嗎因為其實國際社會的變化就很大雖然"},{"start":2974.256,"end":2997.949,"text":"過去這幾年財政的結構有非常大的改善從以前的舉債我以前第十二屆我第九屆立委來的時候那時候馬英九總統的舉借最高到達37點多接近那個40.6的上限幾乎都沒有舉債的空間了可是我看到你的報告說現在降到24點多這跟台灣的GDP"},{"start":2999.109,"end":3016.851,"text":"這幾年有顯著提升也有關係然後另外舉債的比例變少因為我們之前幾年都有稅計剩餘是 我們一直努力的還債所以其實預算裡面編列那些舉借最後都沒有舉借所以我們舉借的比例一直降低是的"},{"start":3017.762,"end":3043.379,"text":"可是現在國際的變化這麼大一下地緣衝突 二屋戰爭那一下就是美國的關稅問題 叫做談判所以我們未來感到要用錢的地方很多像美國一直要求說我們台灣要增加國防預算來保護自己那這個應該也是一個非常急切的事情所以我們雖然"},{"start":3045.086,"end":3049.51,"text":"扣打已經增加出來很多了可是這樣子用合理嗎你認為這樣的財政支配合理嗎跟委員報告確實您說的很適合也就是說維持一個財政韌性是非常重要也就是說我們有稅基剩餘的時候第一個可以去因應國際政經情勢的一個變化或者是現在的所謂的氣候變異常的狀況救災的需要的錢這是非常重要的"},{"start":3069.145,"end":3079.27,"text":"所以為什麼我們在稅入好的時候我們除了還預算的債要編列的債務債我們還增加還債這幾年來我們增加還債的1301億總計還了1兆0733億的錢所以當我們稅客收入好的時候我們都會積極的還債讓我們的債務比例往下降那麼才有空間來因應一些突發情勢部長 我跟你說明在第九屆 第十屆立委就是"},{"start":3096.357,"end":3118.287,"text":"這個基本上蔡英文政府執政的時代立法院民進黨是多數那時候國民黨的委員都在這邊誓言旦旦一定要遵守財政紀律啊嚴格要求財政紀律結果現在他人多了加藍白多數之後立法來多花這些錢那以前為什麼就是要財政紀律現在的財政紀律是用這樣的方式在對待"},{"start":3119.537,"end":3146.966,"text":"你覺得原因是什麼因為他覺得他自己可以當家他可以花這個錢他要把行政權用預算的權利搶在手裡是這樣嗎當然委員說的是沒錯就是說我們整個的財政紀律一定要遵守那麼才能夠國家作為長遠發展的財政需求來支應整個環境的變化那你覺得我們這一次這樣子的做法有遵照財政紀律嗎"},{"start":3148.153,"end":3171.144,"text":"這一次當然因為特別條例這樣訂了以後就財政部來說還是要去注意債務的一個控管一定要在公債法的上限之下來做執行部長你如果這樣講公債法舉債的空間要很大但是問題是你不預留一些金額不預留一些扣打將來國家發生變動或是發生天然災害的時候預備金不夠的時候那要怎麼辦"},{"start":3173.218,"end":3193.761,"text":"確實要特別留意這個我們一定要到時候立法院再來說我們再把40.6的這個舉在上限再提高嗎還是要像美國這樣子因為兩黨的黨爭所以政府部門關門我想債務的控管是大家都很注意的事情而且我們的債務整個比例在國際來說是非常優等的這也就是各個性平機構給我們"},{"start":3194.602,"end":3213.378,"text":"我是觉得要注意财政纪律既然是大家要求的标准不应该执政或是不应该是少数党多数党的时候就像初一十五不一样是这是国家整体的财政是好谢谢好我们谢谢吴秉瑞委员接下来我们请颜宽恒委员发言"},{"start":3221.182,"end":3225.326,"text":"主席各位聯席各位大家早主席有請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好"},{"start":3235.61,"end":3257.757,"text":"部長早部長這項強化任性特別預算民眾最關心的還是普發現金一萬塊的部分這個政策是希望說民眾在面臨即將美國關稅的衝擊還有物價上漲的這個時候可以有喘口氣的空間"},{"start":3259.157,"end":3278.689,"text":"但是卻有詐騙集團冒用財政部的名義架設普發現金領取網站向民眾索取個資 使民眾上當那一萬塊還沒領到就不知道要先撩多少錢這也不能怪民眾我們看後面這個這個就詐騙網站這些網站網址跟我們財政部的網站看起來都很像 如出一策"},{"start":3289.27,"end":3316.091,"text":"這些詐團就是看中民眾這個急需用錢所以在很多有一些年紀稍大的或者是所謂的數位落差的地區他也不知道我們政府政策實施進度到底如何所以就上當受騙部長除了宣導之外呼籲之外到底有什麼具體的措施可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":3316.894,"end":3320.617,"text":"是 謝謝委員關切提出這樣的問題其實我們非常重視這個在我們這一次普發現金的專案小組裡面一個工作小組裡面我們多了一個打擊詐欺小組這個部分然後我們還成立了防詐騙的專案小組然後建置了一個偵測的冒發網站的一個機制24小時我們會在網路去做監控"},{"start":3342.613,"end":3360.961,"text":"對類似像這樣您看看在畫面上所呈現的尾帽的王子還有logo我們會立即的通報然後做解析然後做後續的追蹤那我想這個部分也再一次的在這裡希望就是大家民眾知道等到這個特別預算過了公布以後財政部會立即發布新聞稿召開記者會告訴大家哪一個時間點去有什麼做哪一種方式的領取那在這個之前其實都還沒有開始發放那也就不要在這個網路上"},{"start":3370.165,"end":3385.814,"text":"部長我的理解是說就你剛剛講的說還沒有開始發放然後這些具體的防護措施這些呼籲繼續進行但是我們沒有其他更進一步的如何的防炸打炸的部分比如說我們的網站到底設好了沒有"},{"start":3386.833,"end":3392.197,"text":"我們的網站已經在完成設計了然後等到特別預算過了要等這個預算通過才有辦法嗎等預算通過以後才能夠實際執行因為條例裡面就規定等於這段空窗期很大你知道嗎"},{"start":3403.804,"end":3409.587,"text":"這段空窗期只能靠呼籲嘛因為我們現在只能靠呼籲而已我們兩個在這邊講然後這個新聞脫波就只能這樣子啊沒有沒有您看這個部分也是偵測到了以後立即做這個停止網站的這個作業我們這個作業並沒有停止一直都在進行當中而且有實際的成果那內政部他們是次長是這個打詐小組的一個召集人員希望跟書發部警政署合作會的"},{"start":3430.498,"end":3447.021,"text":"跟检警合作要把这些网站的负责人找出来会继续追查要把它找出来严惩不法严惩不贷好不好是 好部长请回谢谢主席有请我们卫务部女次长还有主席女次长"},{"start":3457.475,"end":3474.903,"text":"主席長 請問一下時間有限 不好意思 我本來要分開請謝謝 次長跟主席長我希望說因為我看了你們特別預算便利的部分大多是因為因應美國關稅衝擊"},{"start":3478.184,"end":3502.631,"text":"像是經濟部就提了中小企業貸款還有農業部提了農業貸款利率加碼補助這個部分都是幫助受影響的企業希望能夠幫助民眾度過這次危機提出了益住健保200億加發經濟弱勢族群13個月生活補助金還有擴大推動獨居老人關懷這些關懷弱勢 獨居老人我都非常的支持"},{"start":3503.371,"end":3529.189,"text":"但是我看到一個項目衛福部怎麼會把宣導費也編在特別預算裡面預算法83條規定說當國家發生一個緊急特別的狀態例如戰爭 經濟重大變故 重大災變以及不定期或數年一次的重大政事所以來編列特別預算但是這些宣傳費算是重大變故嗎"},{"start":3530.409,"end":3540.932,"text":"這個是要哪一位回答 委員會回答嗎委員 非常感謝你對這個問題的關心我想委員你也常常很關心我們的獨居長輩但是我們獨居長輩有一個問題他們常常對外面的資訊比較不了解有時候我們在合議 我們要來照顧他有時候怕說 有這個詐騙集團所以我如果委員報告就是說我們獨了傳統 我們用我們的方式我知道 次長有在講 我跟你說我們也是要用廣播的方式時間有限"},{"start":3558.396,"end":3571.366,"text":"我不能浪費後面委員的時間但是這個特別預算本來就緊急狀態之下才來編列重大一個樣態的情況之下需要需求所以這個就一般預算來編列才對那你現在把"},{"start":3575.261,"end":3593.449,"text":"這個不夠的 想要用的全部都放進去然後讓我們這些委員來背書來同意你們預算的一個提出你把這個緊急預算常態化就是在破壞財政機率讓公共債務的攀升加速所以這個是萬萬不可"},{"start":3594.289,"end":3603.092,"text":"好不好 我們要檢討市長 好不好 主席用書面回答好不好 書面回答不應該把這樣子的一個破壞財政機率的這樣子變成一個常態化可以嗎你用書面來 用書面回答好不好時間的關係 好 謝謝好 謝謝 感謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":3619.338,"end":3626.001,"text":"好 謝謝原礦元委員接下來我們請陳婷菲委員發言謝謝主席 我們請主席長好 請主席長"},{"start":3645.094,"end":3656.823,"text":"主席我想請教一下我們現在普發現金一萬元的整個發放流程是誰在控管這個部分是財政部來我們請財政部請財政部"},{"start":3665.293,"end":3681.831,"text":"是委員好部長這一萬塊的現金發放的時間表是由誰在控管是您嗎跟委員報告在行政院有一個專案小組是由行政院秘書長當召集人那我是副召集人我和那個國發會主委"},{"start":3683.653,"end":3691.756,"text":"是副召集員那我們下面有六個分組那至於時間點的部分其實第一個就是這個特別預算過了以後總統公布一個月內開始發放所以我們現在這個時間點只要總統一公布以後後面就開始排往後"},{"start":3699.318,"end":3714.113,"text":"一直有序的進行所以這個時間點只要公布以後我們就開始把所有時間點會告訴所有民眾大眾讓社會大眾知道這個很重要是的 非常重要所以我為什麼在今天特別提醒是誰在負責"},{"start":3715.434,"end":3742.531,"text":"當然你說秘書長可是轄下有副召集人那也有由您跟國發會那下面還有幾個單位那分門他們所負責的單位都不一樣嘛他們負責的一個項目主責的都不一樣可是你們的控管非常重要每一個環節都不能有差錯時間都不能有差錯"},{"start":3743.311,"end":3772.791,"text":"因為我們從10月3號我們立法院邀請行政院長卓榮泰列席報告預算的編制狀況然後10月8號財政委員會就是今天聯席審查今天質詢明天處理所以呢如果是這樣子的話大家無異議用協商的方式很快的因為前面已經有案例了趕快出我們的院會裡面然後立法院"},{"start":3773.411,"end":3781.409,"text":"出然後總統就可以做公告了對不對那預計好我們預計什麼時候完成三讀"},{"start":3783.39,"end":3805.398,"text":"那個預計完成三堵要由大院來做決定總是有抓一個大概的時間吧如果說依照這個時間點了好我現在大膽預測大膽預測如果依照整個我們的院會的時間然後在二堵三堵通過之後然後由總統公告應該是10月17號"},{"start":3808.139,"end":3829.797,"text":"預計啦 就是當初選的所以我們也要拜託我們各黨團還有我們的立法院院長在協商當中要儘速 儘快能夠把這樣的一個問題凸顯給大家我們真的大家都很用心好 如果10月17號真的"},{"start":3830.518,"end":3841.986,"text":"我們院會都沒有任何其他的問題通過了這十月十七就是我們歡迎大家這裡嘛如果通過之後一個月那麼預計是11月17號以內就會發放嗎"},{"start":3849.636,"end":3873.734,"text":"是的 一定會那因為10月17號大院如果三讀通過盡快送請總統公佈的話在那當天總統公佈當天財政部會開記者會告訴所有社會大眾每一個時間點我們做的事情跟民眾可以開始來用哪一種方式來領取我們都會跟社會大眾說明而且會用多種的管道來做宣導讓民眾了解"},{"start":3875.695,"end":3902.846,"text":"那所谓一个月内是什么样的一个月内如果说你当天你们都可以公告了公告说所有的民众可以透过哪几个方向哪几个方向来处理那所谓一个月内的重点是什么这个一个月内包含你可以到网站去登记然后登记完以后就会用话播到你的账户或者什么时间点可以去ATM领什么时候时间点可以到邮局去所以我们开始真的现金"},{"start":3904.988,"end":3923.764,"text":"現金進入到的帳戶是一個月對不對就在這個準備期一個月之內各個方式我們都會去做那當然跟他什麼時間去網站登記有關另外還有有一些是直接入帳的直接入帳根據我們上一次的發放的結果大概直接入帳的有照冊入帳的有"},{"start":3929.688,"end":3943.113,"text":"400多萬嘛400多萬人是直接入帳425萬直接入帳那這個部分又政府要來做把名冊做完核對以後然後輸入系統這個東西都要非常謹慎第一個不能重複不能遺漏"},{"start":3943.473,"end":3968.183,"text":"所以這個也是一個月內也會做這樣的完成嗎這個一個月內都在做我們前置作業開始準備對我覺得這個重點部長前置作業425萬這個自動入帳的這個部分前置作業現在就可以做了前置作業但是還是要等到總統公佈那一天把名冊決定然後輸入到我們行政程序先做我們先相關收集然後讓各部會知道行政程序先做好不好"},{"start":3968.963,"end":3980.45,"text":"行政程序做完等到總統一公佈的時候那麼我們就可以同步去進行這些行政的對 這很重要 部長我們要把每一個關卡把它兜好不要說現在我們既然已經跟人家說一個月內只要總統公告之後一個月內我們一定會進行發放我們就要說到做到好 拜託部長好 謝謝"},{"start":3999.602,"end":4002.203,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請賴世保委員發言好 謝謝主席及各位先進我想請國防部長衛福部的長官內政部長 警政署長"},{"start":4027.158,"end":4031.829,"text":"勞動部的長官郭士芳部長一起好不好就等因為我們時間非常短所以一起上來我就一個一個先問來"},{"start":4040.327,"end":4062.005,"text":"首先請教國防部的部長 顧部長這一次的特別預算大家都知道特別預算是針對什麼是針對美國的要扣台灣的關稅20%加N 就疊加關稅是舊產業跟他的勞工的部分還有經濟部長一起好不好經濟部長一起上來經濟部長一起上來 國防部長謝謝結果一下國防部編了"},{"start":4070.253,"end":4076.058,"text":"很多部位還有教育部長一起教育部長一起教育部長一起教育部正部長也請上來"},{"start":4080.834,"end":4087.755,"text":"原來是為了說救產業 救勞工結果各部要來搶錢 趁火打劫國防部最離譜他等於搶了最多國防部明年部的預算已經變了9000多億了創歷史新高要佔GDP的3.34%已經這麼高的比例結果現在又搶了1130億加起來的話 如果加明年度等於"},{"start":4109.54,"end":4117.826,"text":"明年我們審完以後 明年度預算加這一次的1130億就一兆630億GDP啊 佔GDP比重不是3.3%就3.7%啦3.7%啦 各位委員 各位委員報告 您可能有點誤解這個9000多億是含這一次的1132有嗎"},{"start":4134.17,"end":4149.792,"text":"就是九千四百多億我們分成一一三二分成兩年嘛一一五跟一一六在一一五裡面的部分大概三百多億是含在九千四百多億裡面你這個把它解釋清楚 可以然後就問你你是不是要逐年增加到五八"},{"start":4151.593,"end":4170.695,"text":"我想我们的现在的目标就是说我们明年希望能够达到刚刚委员提到了3.34后年还在往后撑那我们后续还是依照我们的整体的这个战力的建构的必要来逐步提升有可能达到川普政府要求我们的10%吗"},{"start":4172.269,"end":4189.066,"text":"我想我們現在的目標應該還是從四個面向就是有關不對稱 防衛韌性貨幣戰力跟印尼黑車地帶我們會逐步的來依照我們的防衛作戰能力的需求來增加就問你這個事情 目標有沒有10%"},{"start":4190.291,"end":4216.999,"text":"我們現在就依照總統的這個承諾我們先達到3%那按照北約的這個核心的國防支出我們到達3.5%之後我們未來會再按照我們的整體防衛專案的這個需要我們逐步看看未來我們按照北約的核心國防支出還有韌性的這個相關的支出我問問題你都沒回答我什麼時候會到5%我就問你是不是第一個是不是逐年增加"},{"start":4218.491,"end":4223.136,"text":"總統有宣示是在2030年的時候到5% 對嘛所以這個5%是什麼概念5%我們的排擠多少預算排擠多少預算好了 這個我們的國防還有那個經濟部長好了換經濟部長好了"},{"start":4237.888,"end":4242.492,"text":"你在當國會主委的時候你說如何讓美國再次偉大結果總統現在對外接受外國媒體的專訪對外講了要讓美國再次偉大怎麼會把台灣自我矮化成為美國第51週啊"},{"start":4253.817,"end":4260.039,"text":"我們這麼重要的自己的國家怎麼會讓它偉大這到底是什麼跟什麼最早是你講的啊我為什麼找你來是你講的你說讓美國更加偉大台美關係是互利雙贏美國好 台灣也會好所以美國要先偉大就對了所以我們是合作夥伴關係你現在還強調美國再次偉大是你重要的時針"},{"start":4281.204,"end":4304.455,"text":"互利雙贏 互利雙贏我們彼此跟美國之間是互利雙贏的你沒回答問題你是不是第一個你講的所有部長裡面是你第一個講的讓美國再次偉大不是 立足台灣佈局全球台灣先偉大台灣先偉大 中華民國先偉大怎麼美國先偉大可是你不要急著否認你就是因為講了讓美國再次偉大所以你當了部長否則沒有部長可以當"},{"start":4309.398,"end":4316.545,"text":"不要忘了 因為你是你去捧這個川普啊我們看教育部長啊教育部長啊我在總實行提過啊你這個產學合作啊 產學合作"},{"start":4325.253,"end":4326.413,"text":"產學合作 你為什麼要編一百億呢廠商的需求比你高 對不對你編一百億 搶錢啦 趁火打劫啊產學合作就是產業跟你合作的我們現在因為過去我們的產業"},{"start":4344.699,"end":4347.201,"text":"在產協合作比較是單一的這些教授產業要多付錢 怎麼叫多付錢我們現在是希望用產業去設立講座有一個類醫學院的這樣一個概念謝謝大人 謝謝就不跟你扯了"},{"start":4361.294,"end":4376.785,"text":"這個我覺得這不可思議委員如果不了解我可以私底下再跟委員報告但是我們真的因應產業上人才的需求我們真的很用心請他用書面回答好不好謝謝委員指正劉部長我就有三秒鐘 劉部長劉部長 來來來好 三秒鐘 掌握時間外面指控你的喝喝喝你是不是有喝喝喝 有沒有"},{"start":4386.811,"end":4399.256,"text":"報告委員 這件事情我已經在昨天表達過了我們就按照災害防救法裡面 如果有人變照或是有人沒有全文照登 那我們就移送給地檢署因為我現在跟您解釋 到時候還是會被斷章取義好 謝謝賴司保委員部長請回 接下來我們請郭國文委員發言"},{"start":4419.361,"end":4423.407,"text":"主席有請經濟部管部長勞動部陳市長以及農業部陳部長陳部長還有那個"},{"start":4430.789,"end":4449.003,"text":"國務部長 我們把握時間你也知道最近芬蘭能源清潔空氣研究中心公布了一個台灣從俄羅斯進口的石油腦的部分高達49億目前是全球排名第三今年看起來是排名第一俄羅斯的部分還有包括進口煤炭的部分也是第五買家"},{"start":4449.904,"end":4463.556,"text":"外界開始質疑說台灣是會變成一個戰爭的幫兇從道德面來說是這樣子從經濟面的部分目前川普已經放話說你如果購買俄羅斯原油的國家的話對等關稅會再加"},{"start":4465.517,"end":4481.183,"text":"印度就是一個很明顯的例子三來國安的一個問題俄羅斯石油腦站台灣的進口量45%的話那俄羅斯是中國最重要的盟友那一旦斷絕這個供應的話那會影響台灣的一個國安問題這件事情那個部長你有沒有掌握你怎麼看怎麼處理"},{"start":4482.698,"end":4493.945,"text":"鮑委員 事實上巫俄戰爭以後至少我們國營事業的中油就沒有這我清楚 國營事業是沒有但是目前是台塑有台塑的確是有買我們也跟台塑溝通過了只能道德勸說嗎 沒有其他的辦法嗎他的認知是說他有符合G7跟歐盟的相關規範就是一定的金額以下"},{"start":4504.691,"end":4527.09,"text":"那我們有跟他溝通你站在國家的立場可以這樣子嗎台塑賺走了錢那我們卻承擔整個關稅增加的風險經濟部不是主責關稅的談判之一嗎台塑想就是說如果有明確的因為說老實話歐盟跟G7他怎麼樣執行彼此之間我們有去問過歐盟的相關意見所以說你認為現在沒有風險沒有道德的風險"},{"start":4530.613,"end":4554.253,"text":"所以我們去這樣子的情況底下沒有道德的風險最近烏克蘭也指控我們有些無人機的零件又是我們處理的我們沒有道德的風險沒有國安的風險沒有經濟的風險那三個都沒有現在確定的就是說我們會遵循就是說符合或配合歐盟跟G7他們的相關規範歐盟跟G7的標準符合的話我們就沒有這個風險你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":4555.72,"end":4572.057,"text":"如果據了解啦據了解歐盟可能在明年的時候會講說就不要再買了那如果突然之間川普說要因此而給你增加關稅呢你怎麼承受我們怎麼承受沒有聽到這樣的訊息沒有聽到這樣的訊息沒有聽到這個訊息那有沒有這個可能性"},{"start":4573.358,"end":4599.647,"text":"我沒有辦法預測沒有辦法預測那他就一個潛力在那邊印度就一個潛力在那邊我們只能跟這個我們的民間廠商來做溝通他也願意配合那他願意配合願意配合怎麼配合法如果歐盟明年說不能買他就不買所以說這樣承受我們就直接承受等到歐盟明年改變再改變明年改變我們再跟著改變是不是這樣子"},{"start":4600.683,"end":4611.58,"text":"沒有 現在的情況它因為相關的歐盟的規範它是符合可是問題還是停留在一個風險的存在不是嗎你說這三個都沒有風險"},{"start":4614.383,"end":4641.162,"text":"有 我們有Watch到你有Watch到了我是希望你說你要盡量避免盡量避險的角度我主要跟你Argue的是這個部分要有所作為而另外的部分因為232條款當中一直都針對是半導體的部分可是一般的補助的部分一般的非半導體的部分衝擊非常的大我是提醒部長的部分這個部分應該要有一個特專案的補助而不是只有一般性的只有研發型補助500萬或者開拓另一市場500萬而已"},{"start":4642.483,"end":4660.733,"text":"我請部長回去好好的思考一下這個問題好不好那個461基本上大部分是針對傳統性產業因為232還沒有公佈所以這個金額的協助所以說不是一般的不是普及性的而且有專案式的對不對對 是針對我們會專案去輔導我們輔導團會去專案因為這部分衝擊非常的大另外我再請一下農業部的陳部長"},{"start":4667.837,"end":4673.041,"text":"部長依照我們目前的這個農業的這個逆差的部分高達28億然後你現在又要採買100億我看到可能最大的衝擊可能來自於這個肌肉的部分的可能性會比較大因為肌肉的部分目前所佔的這個市場站在我們的肌肉市場來說的話35%跟50%"},{"start":4688.053,"end":4717.153,"text":"這個部分因為在你這部分預算當中我看到的是你編的大概將近45億的部分在鼓勵開拓美國高端的外銷市場但是去年去美國市場不過是51億而已然後你居然花了將近45億來做補助出口的部分可是進口的部分 充其的部分這裡頭卻沒有看到部長你是怎麼編這個預算的請你說明一下第一個我跟委員說明就是這次到美國是由業者自己買的買的是主要是"},{"start":4718.273,"end":4729.379,"text":"飼料用的黃豆 玉米 小麥對 從巴西那邊一轉過來這邊所以它不是說會衝擊然後也沒有說要去購買雞肉的部分這個要特別說明第二個部分是說因為現在"},{"start":4731.429,"end":4738.795,"text":"進口的部分的這些關稅現在還在談判但是我們現在針對已經知道的這個關稅20%這個部分我們去編列所以進口的部分主要是黃小玉的部分而不是對國內的農業會造成什麼充其但是出口的部分你應該要有所掌握"},{"start":4748.783,"end":4771.95,"text":"高達45億的補助不應該只有補助到一些貿易商或出口商絕對不會我們是整個供應鏈特別是針對人民的部分出口市場能夠得以開拓的可能性好不好你要自己定一個目標去年才51年現在補助了45億這個比例上太過45億不會全部是美國啦對啦但是你現在寫的是美國高端市場嘛好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝郭國文委員接下來請蘇巧惠委員發言"},{"start":4784.895,"end":4788.577,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請龔明欣 龔部長好 請龔部長所有人好部長好部長 我想今年7月以來台灣被兩個天災這個衝擊影響非常的大一個就是7月的丹尼斯颱風一個是剛剛發生的花蓮的馬太安艷澀湖的溢流事件那我想這兩個災害其實都遇到了停電這樣的問題"},{"start":4812.148,"end":4825.854,"text":"只是丹尼斯颱風台南的受災的部分停電的時間比較久而馬太安的這個事件當中部落當中其實我們可以看得出來它當天下午一流之後停電了4000戶可是晚上10點就已經復電3600戶高達9成"},{"start":4829.716,"end":4833.657,"text":"那不管怎麼樣都受到了影響所以我是想跟部長討論的是電網韌性的問題因為我們今天在討論這個韌性條例當中其實是說因應國際情勢可是天災事實上也大幅的影響了我們整個民生的狀況"},{"start":4847.401,"end":4869.961,"text":"所以第一個電網韌性的部分的話部長我個人認為啦其實可以分成兩個部分第一個是事前的韌性事前的不韌性就應該是防災預防就像是這個平和公路現在電纜地下化就等於完全把這個問題給解決掉了所以電纜地下化現在被大家所極力的爭取這是事前預防"},{"start":4870.982,"end":4892.63,"text":"第二个任性的部分就是事后救灾的速度就是刚刚提到的马太安的像这个事件能够在几个小时之内就复建完成事前事后都是属于任性的一部分不晓得部长你同不同意是 报告委员就是说因为台南的部分因为整个2000多只的电线杆都倒了所以说它是复原是比较"},{"start":4893.65,"end":4916.617,"text":"我們台電同仁也日夜去搶修馬太安的這個部分它水退了以後如果沒有淤積的部分就可以很快的恢復起來所以我們當初在這一次的特別預算裡面有編列希望200億可以加強我們電網的韌性但是非常遺憾的是被刪掉了"},{"start":4916.917,"end":4938.347,"text":"沒錯所以現在就是丹納斯颱風的特別預算的部分有編了一百零而已不過那個是比較是復原性質的針對台南跟嘉義地區的復原性質那是屬於剛剛說的事後的部分我們本來是希望提升這一個包括電網的一些韌性但是就沒有被通過了"},{"start":4938.407,"end":4951.053,"text":"好 謝謝部長提到這個部分這也就是我今天想跟你討論的啦其實我是覺得這個部分在我們本來提韌性條例的時候其實分兩次嘛第一次您提到了1000億其實是改善台電的財務結構的部分第二個部分的話其實就是增強這個電網韌性的部分"},{"start":4955.515,"end":4974.772,"text":"其實兩次的提出都非常的需要都是台灣現在電網韌性要能夠達到一個標準是都很需要的很可惜的是真的是沒有過可是因為看了兩次災害之後呢我認為啦就算這次的目前預算沒有過在特別條例沒有通過可是"},{"start":4976.234,"end":4998.355,"text":"從災區回來我認為還是有幾件事情應該要做的這個我跟部長分享一下第一個是我是認為正是因為去到災區看過了以後我覺得關鍵場域的電網韌性應該要優先施作也就是公共場域像是學校教會的這個部分它的周邊的電網如何能夠確保這個是我覺得特別需要的部分"},{"start":4999.015,"end":5013.495,"text":"這是第一個第二個甚至是在這一些關鍵的場域公共的區域剛剛說的學校教會這是舉例而言而已那其實是不是能夠發展到儲能的部分我也覺得這個應該要討論"},{"start":5015.518,"end":5037.896,"text":"第二個是我們現在既然使用了大量的光電系統老實說光電系統其實應該是有光就有電可是因為它的特性我們設置了孤島的效應避免到時候因為有災害的發生讓我們去修復光電的人員受損所以我們做了一個孤島效應可是在災害發生的時候它卻反而形成了孤島保護我想這個專有名詞我應該不用跟部長討論"},{"start":5040.678,"end":5066.388,"text":"所以孤島保護反而讓我們的這個地區本來可以利用光電的特性有發電卻沒有發電那這個應該要怎麼被解決所以從這三項關鍵地區的韌性關鍵地區的儲能以及孤島保護怎麼改善這是三項我認為在韌性當中應該馬上可以提升的"},{"start":5067.148,"end":5086.612,"text":"在衍生回來其實台灣特殊的狀況下有很多的原住民部落就是直接符合這三項的要求所以當時就說經濟部是不是應該跟內政部 人民會共同討論把原住民部落整個提升成為部落都應該要考量這個部分我想兩個層次三個問題四個問題應該都是請部長部長我舉例列舉這四個你同意嗎"},{"start":5092.293,"end":5111.098,"text":"我同意事實上我們大的方向也是往這個方向在做剛剛提到學校本身就是很多的是災後的收容場所那個本來我們就是會加強那剛剛提到的有一些孤島的我們加強這個太陽能板跟它的這個智慧儲能我們現在也有一筆經費正在施做這個部分對"},{"start":5111.758,"end":5140.334,"text":"所以我們特別因為從災區回來看到了這個狀況所以認為這四項其實是特別應該做的那不只是應該要有預算的支持其實法規面向的鬆綁可能也是需要要考量的比如說電業法當中的特定電力供應業的這個部分要怎麼去處置因為主席已經站起來了所以我知道我時間到了但我是希望經濟部的這個部分部長您是不是可以請經濟部看是哪一個單位特別來跟我們辦公室這邊就電網任性的部分我們再做進一步的討論"},{"start":5141.174,"end":5142.315,"text":"謝謝主席 有請經濟部長 農業部長請國務部長還有陳部長"},{"start":5162.816,"end":5180.594,"text":"是 部長早安那我們知道在這一次國安任性特別預算裡頭它的總額編了5500億那其實政府面對的國際的一個變局的一個關鍵的一個部署身為執政黨的委員我是全力的一個支持"},{"start":5181.255,"end":5197.931,"text":"可是今天要跟大家探討的重點不是在有沒有編而是在編了有沒有去執行那針對的就是蘭花產業我們從台南株花走向世界那我們知道說蘭花產業之前是零關稅"},{"start":5199.592,"end":5222.993,"text":"現在是20%暫時是20%的一個關稅那我在這裡我要請教經濟部長因為在我們加州有一個台塘的土地有有對這一個案子你熟悉嗎我知道我知道你知道因為農業部有在規劃希望借接這個廠醫的應用那我們是會全力配合"},{"start":5223.913,"end":5244.401,"text":"會決定配合會全力配合那你知道這一次這一個預算我們提出了一個三千美金的一個預算那我在這裡要特別跟我們的經濟部長做一個拜託因為這攸關我們台灣尤其是我們台南這一個南華產業最重要最重要的生存面臨之際"},{"start":5245.922,"end":5267.668,"text":"那我想這個要真的就是說請部長請部長經濟部長你要特別的一個支持因為農業面臨到的一個困境我相信農業部長非常的一個清楚就在這個7月6號7月6號就是災情發生的時候還有就是在早期4月份的時候我們已經跟農業部長到了我們的蘭花園區裡頭去做了幾次的一個產業座談會"},{"start":5273.769,"end":5302.176,"text":"好如何從危機走向轉機謝謝部長我在這裡要跟農業部長特別強調就是說業者他主動的出擊他跟我們提供了在南加州的這一個這一個園區的一個建議那事實上他可以就是避掉關稅然後擴充市場那可以降低耗損那我希望那個就是說部長你對於這一個計畫案你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5303.336,"end":5329.819,"text":"我跟委員報告謝謝委員的關心那第一個部分就是這塊地我們已經跟台塘也透過經濟部我們也跟台塘講了台塘這塊地他會全力的配合他本來想要賣掉嘛對他現在不賣了他全力配合我們政府的政策第二個部分說這樣的一個基地當作蘭花的一個生產基地這樣的一個生產接地生產的一個基地那基地面積大概5公頃"},{"start":5330.62,"end":5355.297,"text":"那有一個非常重要的前提就是業者他們現在正在組團隊因為業者組完團隊了以後我們就會開始去規劃整個五公頃的燃源要不要重新的去更新因為很多燃源都是木造的都是早期的燃源的部分所以它是一個需要一個系統性的規劃那這個我想我們持續在做"},{"start":5355.757,"end":5375.124,"text":"那相關的進度有一個委員報告所以部長我現在就是要特別跟你強調就是說我們必須要趕在業者的前面因為你這一個已經晃了二三十年你就是一個閒置的一個空間了那如果你這個園區你沒有提早規劃的時候你應該是要提早規劃我們已經同步啟動了同步對"},{"start":5376.684,"end":5396.101,"text":"我甚至認為應該要更超前因為藍圓的設計不是 藍圓的設計一定要符合業者需求那現在業者本身對這個藍圓的設計還在討論我們當然標準藍圓是可以蓋的但是不同的業者之間他們會找到一個大家都可以用的那有沒有辦法在第一階段就有量產60萬株"},{"start":5399.42,"end":5428.49,"text":"有沒有機會機會不大那你打算你第一階段你要做多少我想第一階段把它現在的五棟溫室裡面的一棟可以用的溫室看看是可以先做一些維修緊急的維修那這樣的話才有機會把一些燃苗送到那邊做接地生產那第二個就是也要業者願意但是業者是傾向於說業者絕對願意業者現在就是一直在求我們沒有 業者是期待打掉全部打掉以後重新蓋"},{"start":5429.195,"end":5455.96,"text":"那我認為你應該要打掉那個重蓋我們也是這樣想法因為你要知道這個30年前的一個那個產區跟30年後這整個產業其實已經不斷的升級了我想這也是賴委員您一直提到的那因為要全部打掉重新規劃的時候就要業者的期待的燃源的模式而不是我們自己想要蓋什麼就蓋什麼所以當然所以我們一直持續跟業者在溝通"},{"start":5457.06,"end":5470.828,"text":"在這裡拜託兩位部長我們的政府事實上已經準備好了我要具體的這個時程上的一個要求我希望在一週內那個農業部跟經濟部到本席的辦公室一起來做這個專案的一個簡報一個月內我們到"},{"start":5473.59,"end":5495.063,"text":"再一次我們到那個地方去我們到後壁去我們到蘭花園區裡頭去做產業的說明會那我們也希望三個月內就是說這一個專案推動的一個計畫書可以專案報告出來在這裡要拜託兩位部長那我們也希望就是說你們在做一個明確的任務跟資源上的一個分配"},{"start":5495.603,"end":5519.979,"text":"你們三年的中期 長期 短期其實這個非常的重要蘭花產業有沒有辦法在這裡這一次的一個關稅裡頭存黃下來的話就是看兩位部長你們的一個投入的心力再一次拜託謝謝主席就依照我們賴會員委員的要求盡速來做出這個實成的一個"},{"start":5521.9,"end":5525.522,"text":"回覆啦 OK 好 謝謝接下來請柯智恩委員謝謝主席 我們是不是請國防部長國防部顧部長 謝謝是 各位"},{"start":5546.963,"end":5567.476,"text":"部長好 在我們進入預算之前我想我有個問題想先請教部長我想花蓮光復鄉的救災我們投入了三千個國軍的兵力是受到大家非常的認同但是我想請問一下對於投入了救災的這些兵力有沒有什麼獎勵的措施因為我們救災的公務員都可以補修跟請領加班費我們的國軍會有嗎"},{"start":5570.976,"end":5593.383,"text":"我們國軍在這一次的我們在調動的時候就特別注意到他們長期如果長期投入會產生一種倦怠感所以我們七天做一次輪動也就是說七天完之後就整個另外跨駐安區所以還是會有這樣子的一個層面就對了然後回去的時候我們會給他一個非常具有榮譽的一個"},{"start":5594.403,"end":5614.08,"text":"那这就牵涉到一个很现实的问题因为我们在10月10号开始我们公教人员都会有所谓的身心调试假但是这身心调试假当中我想国防部在七八月的时候也公布了这个放假的一个标准那里面就是会有一个全责主管不得拒绝这样的一个规定那我们也知道军中的文化其实跟其他是不太一样的"},{"start":5614.46,"end":5633.083,"text":"他其实还是有他基本的一个任务跟基本的一个义务所以其实就会在放假的这个过程当中很怕如果规定不明确的话会造成长官上面的一个困惑所以说我想请问部长如果像是汉官演习的话那如果我们的士兵要请这个申请调试假会准假吗可以连请三天吗"},{"start":5634.402,"end":5652.127,"text":"我想在這個演習期間因為視同作戰我想我們在國軍軍事官請假規則裡面是有增電的這個增音調製假每年要准給三日會在10月10號那部長我只問一下嘛以漢光演習為例的話可不可以准假"},{"start":5654.54,"end":5684.12,"text":"在這個作戰的這個視同作戰的這個期間到底能不能這個准於這個身心調治下這個部分我想如果部長你必須要很明確的我聽你的口氣好像是還需要再來做個研議我還是強調一句話要有指示要非常的明確否則會造成很多人在往上級城堡的時候會造成一些的條規曖昧不明的時候會造成很多的困擾這是我今天提出來很主要的原因"},{"start":5684.48,"end":5698.916,"text":"我的看法是應該是在演習之餘演習之餘所以在這個視同作戰狀況之下是不准降這是部長目前的一個層面我們回去再研議一下我的看法是"},{"start":5699.497,"end":5725.592,"text":"明确最重要好不好然后部长接下来我们问到预算的部分当很多人问到说你这一次来的很多的特别预算同样在年度预算都有那为什么不编在年度预算当中我记得你的回应说是要提升战力希望能够快速完成没有错吧这是你曾经的一个回应但是我要指出来武器建军跟军事设施的整合是否有办法快速完成这是我要画上一个问号请先看一下"},{"start":5726.092,"end":5755.872,"text":"像我们预算中心又曾经指出陆海空军在114年时候我们办理25个案的这个军事工程计划当中其实很多因为因素的缘故你这个整个变更整部分达到六成而且还有很多延期的我特别指出我们左营前面那一张投影片我们的左营左营二港口的扩建工程部长95年就已经开始建案而且编列预算了但是因为居民抗争还有加上原物料等等的因素"},{"start":5756.352,"end":5759.553,"text":"你看总经费从290亿变成590亿而且你的施工的期限是从106变成121整整晚的15年的时间然后你再看看你这次的特别预算当中你所编列的下面一页"},{"start":5773.758,"end":5798.897,"text":"你所编列的部分当中呢包括你这些条项当中你合计你要求他们每一年几乎都要花上上百亿但是呢你刚我刚所提的问题啊包括很多的财务料包括的延期包括的这个整个计划还要再修整整整当中怎么可能会是因为编的特别预算整个的时期就会比较有迅速而且可以保证如此的来完工"},{"start":5799.477,"end":5804.687,"text":"不知道你可以promise你刚所编的这些密集的发包有办法在两年之内完成吗"},{"start":5805.693,"end":5828.679,"text":"我們現在規劃是如此因為我們現在的相關的案子跟剛剛委員所提到的這個左營軍港的這個整個大型的興建案是不同的我們大概大部分都是整件的我知道是不同但是我只是提醒過去國防部就有這些的案子不管是修正延期還有包括原物料上漲所以說你告訴我你的理由變了這些東西之後還是一句話你有辦法保證兩年之內在密集發包當中都可以如期完工"},{"start":5835.021,"end":5844.233,"text":"這才是我們真的是身為在野黨角色裡面應該是監督的有辦法嗎你所調列的這些這些錢不少有辦法放在這裡面就有辦法如期兩年之內"},{"start":5845.666,"end":5873.146,"text":"我们规划是属于相关的这些整建的措施因为不需要像新建案这样子的一个所以两年之内有办法完成我们现在规划就是两年之内把它完成所以你现在规划万一如果没有办法完成是不是我们在审下一次的所谓特别预算的时候会把这样的一个政绩再拿出来然后要求因为你曾经说你们规划然后没有完成所以是否我们在下一次特别预算的时候还会有不同的一个考量这才是最重要的"},{"start":5873.792,"end":5884.697,"text":"我們會努力的來確保我們短期這樣子的一個時間裡面集中這個資源快速來籌建的那我們就再以這一次的以這次部長所說的兩年來看看有沒有辦法在給予這些預算之後可以如期因為這些都是牽涉到你們未來我們國防預算裡面要如何審績效是一個我們考量的最大的一個指標好不好我們一定會努力來好 我們謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢謝謝接下來我們請萬美玲委員"},{"start":5910.645,"end":5917.033,"text":"谢谢主席我们有请教育部郑英耀部长以及财政部庄岁云部长请庄部长委员好"},{"start":5930.526,"end":5942.089,"text":"我先就叫我們教育部的政部長莊部長稍待部長 我們本期這次看你的特別預算教育部一共編列200億是這當中提升大專院校校務經營的補助100億高校跟產業合作20億不過部長要說明一下這兩筆跟過往的公務預算有什麼不同"},{"start":5952.432,"end":5970.097,"text":"因為本席看到其實在這個公預算裡面我們也是就是編了將近990億的補助那其實也都涵蓋你現在特別預算裡面的項目所以能不能簡單的說一下不同在哪裡謝謝委員關心因為確實我們在產業上的一個快速發展我們過去的整個高教的經費攬財主要是在"},{"start":5972.518,"end":5981.183,"text":"這一個留任的這一個激勵的一個機制包含玉山青年玉山青年跟玉山學者還有彈性新師我們這一次純粹是考慮到這個大學資資人力上有一個世代交替我們希望能夠有出片"},{"start":5989.867,"end":6019.207,"text":"你所說的這一些不管是彈性薪資不管是玉山計畫本席可能都比你更清楚因為我們是經歷過過去從這個案子一開始以來到現在的那本席都還沒有跟你請教我們的玉山計畫這個彈性薪資我們到底執行率到什麼地方這以後還可以再來檢討但是我們今天要講的是說你今天這100億跟這個20億其實看起來有這個跌床架屋所以是怎麼使用的我們今天時間有限但我希望今天會後或等一下你請部裡面的同仁把詳細資料送來給我"},{"start":6020.027,"end":6035.465,"text":"第三樣也就是高等教育人才永續的這個部分你有一個八十億嘛對不對但這八十億特別預算我們分三年來執行沒有錯嘛對不對但你卻要學校送來一個十年計畫我想請教一下這是什麼原因"},{"start":6035.905,"end":6062.15,"text":"因為我們主要是希望透過新聘了一個人才以後他有出聘到五年的留任獎金 十年的留任獎金我們的目標就希望延攬一次部長 你的十年攬財計畫的內容我有詳讀在詳讀我現在要問的是說因為我們只有這個預算特別預算三年要執行嘛但是三年的預算今年不能執行那明年後年可能更四十億 四十億為什麼送來的計畫是十年的計畫"},{"start":6062.91,"end":6066.372,"text":"那麼如果送來的計畫是十年計畫的話我們在這個錢撥給學校之後我們要怎麼去監督他怎麼知道確實他這個錢沒有多做他用那萬一執行不利的時候我們應該要怎麼做謝謝委員關心確實我們就是希望說給學校一個攬財的一個基金然後學校有配額款這個可以用十年因為我們目標是任何一個新聘老師他不能用"},{"start":6086.848,"end":6094.028,"text":"我清楚這個計畫的內容我要問你的是說因為我們給了他預算以後長達十年你怎麼監督他"},{"start":6095.595,"end":6115.28,"text":"我們當然會看學校提出來的一個機制他攬財的一個機制我們才會有一個經費上部長在這裡我想不為難你因為我看到我們這個200億事實上你提出的這個數字但是計畫的細項其實是沒有出來的所以其實明天要審查本席還是覺得你要在明天之前讓我們能夠詳細知道"},{"start":6117.14,"end":6140.062,"text":"教育的预算我们全力支持但是必须要知道钱花到哪里去再来我们看到教育部从113年开始每年我们都编列8亿的预算来做这个弹性薪资就本席刚刚有讲那教育部给了我们一个表这个表上面写说我们刚才这个80亿高等教育人才永续发展的部分是揽财事实上里面也有流财"},{"start":6140.783,"end":6157.522,"text":"那我們看到彈性薪資的這個部分你告訴我是流財但事實上裡面內容也有攬財所以其實這兩個是一樣的再者你的彈性薪資應該說你的這個81的部分你是要補助就是我們是要給這個在國內外初聘的專任教師"},{"start":6158.243,"end":6181.389,"text":"但你有没有可能这会产生一种矛盾也就是说我们弹性薪资的部分我们补助这些人员他很有可能也会变成我们出品的专任教师我们现在是禁止国内的挖角你要听我讲完你一不小心你这个方案就变成一个挖财的计划了就变成一个挖角的计划了这是非常有可能做的这是我们不乐意看到的我们也会限制也会禁止"},{"start":6181.849,"end":6199.205,"text":"对但是因为你的办法没有出来嘛那我们又看到你看我们公务预算里面也有这个所谓的这个弹性薪资预算计划还有很多预算我们都在看那我觉得我们这次又在特别预算里头我们去加了这个东西进来所以我要提醒你"},{"start":6201.346,"end":6222.972,"text":"特別預算那他的特別支出在哪裡你的計畫的細節內容是什麼這個我覺得本席非常的在意全力支持教育部所有的預算計畫要給我這樣可以做到嗎可以好那謝謝那請回我想繼續請教我們的莊部長部長我們看到普發現金我看到這個行政的費用當中有一個1350萬是要辦理沒宣費就普發現金沒宣費對嗎"},{"start":6227.988,"end":6234.938,"text":"是要做香港的宣導我們看到2023的時候我們普發現金6000當時我們的沒宣費就是1550萬只用掉819萬執行率只有52%那你現在又再加684萬我不理解這是為什麼"},{"start":6244.952,"end":6266.325,"text":"我想我問題一次講完你再給我回所以我要知道你多的是什麼地方然後再來呢如果這是因應打仗那速發部在幹嘛那最後我想10月17是我們就是最後的day line我們有沒有可能在10月底之前普發現金把它發出來跟委員報告10月17是假設大院三讀通過還要送請總統公告那總統公告後我們一個月內一定會進行相關的發發作業有沒有機會10月底"},{"start":6274.142,"end":6291.981,"text":"當然會在10月底之前我們會進行相關的發放周圍那還要看總統公告時間以及立法院授請總統公告的時間我剛剛的問題給我一個書面資料然後我們能夠的話盡快發放好嗎好的 謝謝好 請這個就書面回答了好 謝謝謝謝萬美玲委員接下來請岳元智委員"},{"start":6304.252,"end":6306.413,"text":"麻煩請經濟部長跟財政部長好 請國務部長跟莊部長葉委員好"},{"start":6316.815,"end":6344.405,"text":"部長好 我想請教一下因為10月1號的時候日本那邊有發一個函給我們說希望可以針對9項汽車零組件調降稅率這上面都有秀出來其中有幾項是調到2到8%然後有4項是免稅這個是日商2025台灣的白皮書我想請教一下日本官方有沒有向我們提出這樣的要求有沒有"},{"start":6346.105,"end":6370.756,"text":"沒有明確的那經營部有收到日商這樣的建議然後再研議可能因應方式嗎我有看到這樣的報導只是說當初事實上之前因為這個只是汽車零組件嘛汽車零組件如果便宜進來的話我們台灣的這個組裝業者汽車的組裝業者或是我們國產的組裝業者成本可以降低"},{"start":6372.016,"end":6400.637,"text":"如果可以回饋消費者所以意思就是說部長你是持一個比較正面態度那有兩件事情我先講完有兩件事情您可能要稍微思考也要回覆一下第一件事情就是其實以前在2019年的時候立法院就曾經討論過就討論過零組件關稅下降問題但是當時沒有做成決議是因為大家考量到希望製造商就您剛講的"},{"start":6401.537,"end":6418.576,"text":"製造商會獲益他有沒有辦法回饋給員工或者消費者譬如說幫員工加薪或者是汽車整體的價格降低目前如果您是正面看待這個事的話你會考慮跟汽車業者去溝通嗎因為2019年那時候"},{"start":6421.075,"end":6449.425,"text":"汽車業者沒有很明確的表達會回饋給消費者跟員工所以那個後來我們就沒有我知道 我是現在問說如果接下來如果日本提出這樣要求然後你也有正面的看待所以接下來會跟汽車廠商去談嗎我們會評估整個台灣的這個汽車業還有汽車領主業整個發展另外我們也會跟汽車業者去談這第一件事第二件事因為"},{"start":6450.598,"end":6462.572,"text":"九項汽車零組件其實台灣也有人在生產所以如果關稅下降也會對他們造成影響這個衝擊你有評估嗎所以我們這個要一併評估我剛剛跟有人報告不能只是這個組裝廠來做評估而已那財政部態度呢"},{"start":6465.615,"end":6488.359,"text":"因為上一次之前是有評估過如果這樣做的話我們的稅收會增加所以財政部態度呢對 是 如果委員所說之前有提過也就是剛剛講過這必須如果要降的話也要把相關的降稅的利益回饋給消費者同時對於產業的影響都要做整體的評估所以您的態度是一樣 我們跟經濟部可以一起合作好 謝謝那接下來請教育部長好 謝謝"},{"start":6494.605,"end":6496.068,"text":"可以幫我時間暫停一下教育部長"},{"start":6506.021,"end":6527.054,"text":"那個部長請教一下當然教育的預算我們也都支持但是我們還是想要釐清幾件問題第一個這次特別預算因為特別預算通常是因應比較特殊狀況才會編特別預算否則就在年度預算這一次特別預算通通是挹注在高校但是像國民教育也有很多任性的問題譬如說現在缺老師"},{"start":6528.095,"end":6549.152,"text":"然後老師的薪水能不能增加或待遇 導師費 行政費各方面那為什麼你沒有編列特別預算在國教這塊呢跟我們報告第一個 國教那個部分事實上我們內部也有特別預算特別預算因為你這些特別預算全部依註在高教主要就是考慮到這個國際局勢裡面對高等教育的一些衝擊國際局勢會對各種教育有衝擊"},{"start":6558.604,"end":6581.461,"text":"國教的一個部分我們已經內部會有一個不是啦為什麼沒有編特別預算在國教因為我們想要照標準嘛你說如果是國際情勢影響一定高教國教都有啊國家的一個整體的一個這個財政的一個結構我們當然會希望在整個政府的一個各部會的一個這一個團隊裡面我真的非常好奇我覺得如果要講任性的話國教其實"},{"start":6582.362,"end":6605.053,"text":"現在問題也有一些啦委員所關心的我們國教我們從來沒有這個然後我針對一個部分跟你請教啦因為你這個特別預算裡面有一個是65億啊是直接補助給學校然後讓學校來運用嘛但是學校有兩個條件第一個三年不能漲學費第二個補助的金額裡面5%要用在低收入戶中低收入戶或者是"},{"start":6606.133,"end":6629.639,"text":"因此次國際局勢影響而遭逢生活變故的學生我就請教一下細節要怎麼認定他是不是因為這次國際局勢影響而且遭逢生活變故我們訂定這樣一個補助辦法也跟大學段的校長都討論過他們會去會有主意的去第二個 低收入戶 中低收入戶平常就有補助了"},{"start":6630.819,"end":6637.322,"text":"那請問一下這個是額外的還是他可以領兩份是額外的因為他可能衝擊到學校的治理好 謝謝足球哥再給我一分鐘30秒請內政部長謝謝委員關心請劉部長請30秒謝謝"},{"start":6662.244,"end":6684.499,"text":"部長 因為外界對你有些質疑我就給你時間讓您說明一下因為有人在講說在9月20幾號有一個錄音檔裡面你有提到說有一個災民怎麼坐在牆上還是屋頂上看風景後來發現說有人說那個其實是他在聽您的指示在垂直避難這個是不是有點在指責災民的意思"},{"start":6684.759,"end":6694.726,"text":"報告委員我的立場都一樣不管是在中央或在地方如果有這樣子的假造謠言的話我們就一律移送到地檢署整備我是說讓你來說所以這個是謠言請把全文都聽完我後續的只是說請很多人過來協助他趕快離開現場"},{"start":6702.482,"end":6720.42,"text":"所以到底有沒有說你到底有沒有說我還是跟委員報告因為你所知道的也是片段的字句所以讓你完整說因為時間不夠因為主席已經站出來了你動不動就說送辦大家現在想說連質疑一下就要送辦所以我就說現在利用這個機會讓您跟大家說明清楚不是你的部分"},{"start":6720.92,"end":6746.461,"text":"我現在說的是在網路上流傳是被片段剪接的那應該是怎麼樣那既然片段剪接我希望他們有全文如果能夠照燈是最好那因為我們現在時間有限沒有辦法全文照燈的話我就希望我們把我們在災害應變中心裡面的全文包括影像資訊全部移送給地檢署來偵辦因為這樣有第三者會讓你完整呈現嘛結果你也不敢完整呈現謝謝抱歉你講的是錯的OK 好"},{"start":6749.656,"end":6753.657,"text":"好 謝謝燕姿委員部長請回現在請鄭正前委員"},{"start":6764.643,"end":6774.296,"text":"謝謝主席我想請一下主席總署陳淑芝主席 請主席長財政部莊翠雲部長 莊部長經濟部龔明欣部長 龔部長還有我們勞動部陳明仁長賜謝謝"},{"start":6781.81,"end":6797.942,"text":"還有次長首先我想先請教一下主席長一下就是10月17號是最快的時間普發現金一萬元這部分這個時間是10月17是最快的時間對不對財政部長請財政部長這邊回答"},{"start":6802.457,"end":6826.231,"text":"10月我想大院三讀通過這個時間是由大院來做決定的對 其實我想就是立法院其實也希望說能夠把普發現金這個1萬元這部分盡量開始落實所以我們今天的整個議程走得非常的快召委其實也走得非常快預計今天明天要把這個部分能夠把它完成然後下禮拜送程序委員會然後下禮拜就可以送到我們的院會裡面"},{"start":6828.732,"end":6837.734,"text":"那我想說因為針對這個10月17號這部分我想說部長這邊有提到說一個月內就可以把它給要把它執行出來對不對沒有錯就是10月17假設立法院三讀通過的話那送請總統公告那這個時間要盡快然後總統公告我們就立即開始啟動所有的相關的作業一個月內就可以開始發放嗎一個月以內可以做OK 那我想說全體的國人都非常的關心這個新的政策"},{"start":6857.498,"end":6884.184,"text":"因為之前的時候其實有法師他特別想要說要搶救國庫然後提到說要為國家續命專款大家不要領這一萬元那也有些教授他也反應當時的卓院長他也表示說他要來思考一下是不是有一個拒營的選項那現在當然是沒有沒有這個拒營的選項對不對 部長沒有 沒有這個拒營選項那我想請教一下部長就是說我們現在的國家財政已經到需要民眾來搶救的地步了嗎"},{"start":6885.389,"end":6899.766,"text":"跟委員報告當時這個民間團體有一個建議是認為是說讓國庫可以有更多的財政能力去做施政的更重要的優先順序是這樣的一個提議的"},{"start":6901.367,"end":6921.86,"text":"所以說基本上我們看到這一次的特別預算當中的時候5500億裡面舉債的部分大概是1056億其他4000多億大概都是用原本的稅計剩餘所以表示這一次的特別預算裡面的時候其實舉債的比例其實不算高不算高的原因我們來看一下就下一個部分"},{"start":6923.202,"end":6929.98,"text":"今年的時候我們整個行政院體系裡面有幾項特別預算在執行當中"},{"start":6932.717,"end":6957.911,"text":"今年104年當然有您這邊所列的新式戰機還有這是為了國防強化國防海空戰力那當然還有總共有六項特別預算在執行對不對特別預算的執行那特別預算基本上第一個為了國防的強化國防理解那我們只在講說因為現在的時候我們總預算當中的時候負債不算高可是特別預算裡面負債是高的"},{"start":6958.311,"end":6983.107,"text":"可是我們這次針對這個國際經濟情勢這邊的時候舉債的部分其實不算高我們看到今年在執行當中的其他的特別預算當中的時候呢舉債的部分比例都非常非常的高所以我想說在這邊的時候因為當我們在想說要搶救國庫然後當時在考慮要拒領選項這部分的時候我覺得它做很多的在做一些帶風向的一個宣傳啦"},{"start":6985.549,"end":7011.023,"text":"我這邊最後問一個狀態如果說有很多民眾他不領這一萬塊我們最後面剩下的這筆錢到時候會怎麼處理如果民眾沒有領的話這個錢還是會在國庫本來就是在國庫裡的錢會回國庫嘛 對不對本來就在國庫裡那領的話就領出去沒有領的話就是在國庫不會再把它給挪用到其他的目前提出的是11項計畫當中不會所有的支出都必須按照預算"},{"start":7011.883,"end":7038.451,"text":"理解所以如果說有很多民眾他們想自主性的響應這部分的時候基本上這東西就到時候會回國庫對不對好 謝部長我想說就是因為從台積電這邊的一個新的資料我想請教一下勞動部這邊因為目前整個傳產的產業當中的情況不是很好已經連續"},{"start":7041.298,"end":7060.277,"text":"四個藍燈 已經連續四個藍燈這裡面所還包括我們高科技產業的部分高科技其實台灣還是好的可是整個景氣製造業其實是不好的情況的時候然後有很多的一個無薪假的一個情況請教一下次長一下我們目前無薪假的廠商跟人數有多少"},{"start":7061.068,"end":7086.66,"text":"跟委員報告目前無薪假最近一起的統計大概有8500多人378家左右那其中受到關稅影響的大概有九成那我們其實在這一方面一方面是透過經濟部那一邊會有一些支持企業的方案那就勞動部而言我們是針對無薪假也就是減班休息他還是要付最低工資我們針對這部分協助勞工"},{"start":7086.84,"end":7104.913,"text":"OK 因為針對五星價的部分我們也希望在這一次尤其你剛才有特別提到說因為關稅的部分有很多很多的勞工都受到了影響我們希望這邊能夠好好去做那我最後一部分想請教一下經濟部因為我們看到這兩年的時候跟美國的一個貿易順差急序的一個拉伸"},{"start":7105.994,"end":7122.006,"text":"那針對這部分的時候呢我們現在在關稅這問題當中的時候似乎因為跟美國的一個貿易順差變得很多我們也變成被美國很輕鬆的拿捏變成說一定要被脅迫的一個情況針對這個部分的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼更具體的一個做法"},{"start":7122.601,"end":7142.581,"text":"報告委員所以我們在這次的特別預算裡面特別編列100億元來針對傳統產業也好或中小微企業也好多元開拓市場這些市場包括了歐盟市場也好或是南向國家的市場或是其他的市場那我們可以除了有一些廠商他可以在海外設立一些據點行銷據點之外"},{"start":7144.503,"end":7166.213,"text":"OK 這個部分的時候我想說我們其實原本的時候跟大陸的一個貿易順差很高現在很明顯的往下盪所以我們希望說台灣在這部分的時候能夠更多元希望經濟部這邊能夠扮演更做積極的角色好 謝謝鄭振全委員OK 好 謝謝部長接下來我們請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請經濟部長"},{"start":7173.814,"end":7175.074,"text":"好 國務部長再請黃委員好部長好 部長上個月您有親自到彰化的這個水五金業者那邊去做一個參訪是那這會中您有特別提到就是說因應這個關稅問題那有提到就是說"},{"start":7195.2,"end":7213.997,"text":"能够协助业者比如说提升国际的曝光度政府会在国际商展成立一个台湾馆另外还有加速产业园区推动田园生产聚落特定区解决产房土地不足的问题"},{"start":7214.897,"end":7241.718,"text":"還有AI人才的培訓部長 我想請教因為這一次的從四月份的關稅到目前為止其實彰化有很多的船產確實是受到影響我想請教就是說針對我們這些船產要怎麼樣讓它能夠繼續的營運下去因為我最近到一些"},{"start":7244.179,"end":7268.07,"text":"水五金專區也好或者是在做腳踏車零件的其實他們受到的影響真的都非常的大我想請教就是說因為我們之前田園工廠的部分我們有收納管輔導金還有營運管理金 雙金地方收了這雙金之後其實實際用在輔導"},{"start":7269.451,"end":7278.913,"text":"福島這些農地工廠或者是做補助的比例不到1%我們收了136億實際用在福島跟補助不到1成我想請教就是說因為現在目前確實這些傳產營運確實會碰到一些困難"},{"start":7293.937,"end":7302.609,"text":"那有沒有可能就針對這雙金就是納管輔導金跟營運管理金可以先停收或者是減半"},{"start":7304.372,"end":7322.389,"text":"報告委員因為這兩個金主要是地方政府他主要收的目的是說當這個田園園區開始實施的時候他要做一些公共建設公共的管購等等一些情況但是因為這個園區的抱邊現在"},{"start":7327.313,"end":7343.017,"text":"內政部是講說他們會儘快儘快初步的趕快如果通過的話那就可以開始往下走那這樣來講的話這些基因它的用途就會很快的可以用在整個公共建設的部分那使得這個園區可以正常的一些發展"},{"start":7343.377,"end":7353.652,"text":"那也許剛剛部長講的就是水五金專區的這個部分那其他一般散落在各地的農地工廠其實他們也是都有繳納管輔導金還有營運管理金"},{"start":7358.82,"end":7382.046,"text":"那確實撇開這個水五金專區不講其他的這個部分確實傳產這部分真的受到蠻大的影響剛剛勞動部這邊也有特別提到就是在放無薪假的人也是越來越多那針對這部分其實也可以減輕這些業者的一個壓力我是不是可以請經濟部這邊可以針對這部分跟地方政府可以再做一個協調"},{"start":7383.386,"end":7404.589,"text":"既然使用這個雙晶這個比例不到一成的話那是不是可以協助這些業者可以暫時也許可以減半或者是暫時先不要收一年兩年先不要收其實對這些業者來講其實是有一些幫助的所以我是不是可以請部長可以"},{"start":7405.59,"end":7430.241,"text":"回去可以跟這些地方政府可以再做一個協調可以 我們來協調是不是有階段性的一些措施或做法可不可以給我一個時間因為我記得我在上個月上個月我已經有跟次長這邊有聯繫過那次長也有特別提到就是說會請會約地方政府來那我們下個月再回報委員看看處理的狀況"},{"start":7431.141,"end":7452.312,"text":"好 我們希望就是說確實剛剛我看到經濟部的一個簡報確實也對這些業者有一些協助有一些幫助可是就是說這個也不是短時間內可以看到一個結果可是如果是針對我們的納管輔導金或營運管理金的話其實是可以對他們有一些幫助的是不是確實"},{"start":7454.773,"end":7480.08,"text":"拜託我們部長這邊真的能夠來協助那也協助地方政府就是趕快協調那短時間內針對這些業者能夠有一些幫忙那另外就是說確實我們的這個關稅的這個議題從四月份那到一直到現在這個一些業者他們說他們的報價不知道不知道要怎麼報報價不知道要怎麼報"},{"start":7483.601,"end":7503.426,"text":"就是說跟其他國家可能確實會有一些很競爭的一個關係所以我們也希望就是說當然我們的政府也很努力在談判那當然就是說希望能夠有一個好的結果能夠針對這個關稅能夠再有一個好的結果那最快的一個結果就是說經濟部能夠實際的這個協助這些業者能夠站穩腳步是"},{"start":7509.747,"end":7522.969,"text":"好不好特別預算通過以後我們就會盡力的我們輔導團也要成立了那就會趕快來執行好 謝謝好 謝謝黃秀芳委員接下來請黃珊珊委員發言好 謝謝主席我想請衛福部理事長還有農業部陳部長好 陳部長 請"},{"start":7549.859,"end":7571.272,"text":"委員好次長跟部長我想大家都非常關心關稅的衝擊但是我們的食品安全在這次的關稅談判裡面也是一個重要的事項中秋連假大家最關心的其實尤其北部的民眾最關心的是我們所謂的工業級雙氧水百威公司的黑心出廠"},{"start":7572.313,"end":7592.776,"text":"然後大部分的大部分的民眾現在都只有看到新聞了那吃下肚的大概也來不及了所以現在的問題就在於說目前是調查局來做調查但是食安問題在台灣已經從以前到現在不但加嚴而且加重但是業者還是敢"},{"start":7593.797,"end":7604.235,"text":"用這樣的方式來處理我想第一個就是問一下衛福部現在找到了相關的源頭了嗎還是知道了我們到底有多少東西被吃下肚了"},{"start":7605.846,"end":7624.106,"text":"非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心跟委員報告我們現在目前有掌握就是在屏東百威我們現在目前已經有查封查封現存但是留到多少在市面上已經被吃下肚了到底有多少"},{"start":7624.646,"end":7646.148,"text":"包委我們現在這個部分我們現在目前還在清查還沒掌握對然後只抓到現有的但是他的帳冊這些其實都可以看得出來他的源頭多久之內可以有個相關的具體的數字包委我們現在兩個部分第一個就是今天部長他也已經我們現在先具體裁罰就是五千萬這是第一個市長現在的問題很嚴重是"},{"start":7648.13,"end":7677.231,"text":"現在一出來是什麼台北寧夏夜市整個生意都毀了第二個阿中麵線每天多少賣多少的所謂的你知道嗎這件事情不釐清讓所有的市民人民感覺恐慌我覺得這件事情很嚴重所以你還不知道多少包委我們現在目前的封存產品是總共有12604公斤下架是2430代銷毀所以被吃下肚有多少"},{"start":7678.324,"end":7695.578,"text":"包委員我們現在目前在清查當中在清查當中大概1萬公斤啦好啦重點是我想問一下農業部這個公司他在屏東的台旭公司的屠宰場裡面租了一個場地這件事情農業不知道嗎"},{"start":7697.321,"end":7713.983,"text":"我們了解是所有的這些被查獲的內臟都是合格的都有經過正式的衛生圖案在他的場地裡面是合格的出來的不就不合格了那到底原因在哪裡今天台旭公司租給他他在這邊清洗然後沒有人知道是嗎"},{"start":7715.355,"end":7731.556,"text":"農業部查了之後現場有沒有看到工業用的雙氧水警察官也有去看他帶隊去看的話所有的這些土體包括內臟都是有合格標章的所以他在外面亂洗還是在這裡洗不知道他在哪裡洗的"},{"start":7733.438,"end":7754.457,"text":"他是不是在這個場地起的百威是一個食品公司不是在屠宰場裡面的好 他在外面 他在這邊租場地他所有的內臟他說來自於台旭公司然後他的販賣場所 製作場所他在你們的登錄平台裡面衛福部登錄平台裡面全部都是在屏東台旭公司的場所你們有看到他有其他的場所嗎"},{"start":7756.826,"end":7779.385,"text":"沒有 不知道我想跟委員報告部長 我要說的是源頭衛福部叫做後面啦你們叫做源頭啦如果源頭都不知道的話他後面怎麼查都沒用今天他在台續公司發了一個新聞稿說跟他沒關係所以全台灣的人都不知道跟誰有關係農業部要去知道跟誰有關係啊"},{"start":7780.626,"end":7808.813,"text":"部長這部分是不是可以短期內盡速調查清楚他到底在哪裡洗是不是在這裡洗在這裡洗台區公司就不能說他不知道我想我們會跟衛福部但是我要跟委員報告就是我們負責是屠宰檔 屠宰端那屠宰出來了以後他是進到食品端的部分雖然說他的場地是在屠宰檔租的但是不能說租的就是食品但是我們會跟衛福部一起我們跟衛福部一起我要說的是"},{"start":7809.713,"end":7831.769,"text":"在屠宰以前就是你們管我們總要知道台灣今天有多少豬被屠宰有多少量可以做成所謂的後續的加工這些數量都不清楚然後又有一大堆進口的所以現在找不到多少數量這才是我的問題所以我要說的是如果屠宰廠是農業不管這件事情是不是要把源頭搞清楚"},{"start":7832.829,"end":7853.819,"text":"數量金額跟到底是不是在這裡給他的數量我覺得這兩個部分要清楚再跟進口的部分把它理清楚否則將來就是我這邊給你都是正常的可是你賣出去的都是不正常那不是很奇怪嗎部長你了解我的意思嗎你查到都正常奇怪他賣出來不正常那是怎樣見鬼了嗎"},{"start":7854.966,"end":7881.011,"text":"我希望農業部在這邊是不是也可以盡速的給我們包括立法委員都很關心這件事情能夠給社會一個交代 好嗎數量要查出來我想我還是要跟衛福部一起去處理這件事情我們會一起來處理這個事情但是不能說因為我查到都是正常的所以他其他事情我都不知道我只講說土體的部分因為進到食品工廠我們農業部是沒辦法進到食品工廠去查的"},{"start":7881.801,"end":7896.759,"text":"所以這就是問題啊農業部要說的是我們要知道源頭管理可能比事後查核更重要好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝黃瑟琛委員好 接下來請林益勤委員發言"},{"start":7904.774,"end":7912.063,"text":"謝主席有請經濟部工部長 海委會管主委還有勞動部陳次長勞動部陳次長 陳明仁陳次長好 陳次長另外一位好"},{"start":7919.434,"end":7937.528,"text":"好 先請教經濟部長我想今天討論的是有關國家韌性我想一個有韌性的國家平時就讓各部會要發揮最佳的動能才會在緊急的狀況的時候應變不來可是我們卻看到在野黨多次刪除政府對台電撥補的預算嚴重傷害國家韌性"},{"start":7943.072,"end":7966.33,"text":"我想台電大家都知道他不是一般的私人公司他是公用事業那平時承擔穩定電價強化電網韌性保障民生的責任遇上天災還要趕上第一線去搶修那這些公共服務並不會從天而降那都需要公共投資所以待會要請經濟部長一併說明就如果長期在野黨持續阻擋撥補台電的預算那經濟部你評估國家會受到哪些的衝擊"},{"start":7971.414,"end":7984.674,"text":"那另外我們看到政府對公共資源的這個挹注是舉世皆然德國預計明年起還要投入65億歐元相當於台幣"},{"start":7987.517,"end":8000.726,"text":"80億元來補貼輸電的費用來透過降低電力輸送成本那渴望讓家庭的平均電價會下降4%那這項補貼的計畫將由德國的四大輸電業者共同執行而且這筆錢也會用來投資電網基礎的建設那我們反觀台灣部長我們又有什麼樣的計畫來支持電網韌性和民生用電"},{"start":8016.508,"end":8037.169,"text":"就像剛剛委員有提到的我們本來是希望因為當初台電在戊二戰爭開始的時候那時候成本大幅上升所以台電公司也吸收了這個差價累積起來有好幾千億我們希望透過政府可以撥補的狀況把它這個財政的狀況可以做改善"},{"start":8037.89,"end":8054.567,"text":"那如果這個財政沒改善的話我們也希望說電網韌性的部分有些預算可以來加強那這一次本來提的這個韌性條例裡面我們事實上有編了200億但是後來也被刪掉了那如果在這樣情況之下就像委員講的我們就只能就既有的這個預算金額"},{"start":8057.389,"end":8084.405,"text":"就是等於是很減緩的來做沒有辦法像快速的大規模來因應這些可能的災害比較大規模急速的來辦理變成這樣子所以我們也懇請大院如果可以讓台電的財務更健全的話那它在施作這個部分它的規模跟速度就可以加快跟加大好 謝謝部長那接下來本席想請教海委會就有關於海巡署有辦理這個"},{"start":8085.746,"end":8104.676,"text":"海域徵收海域徵收及巡防籌借的計畫有關無人機應用的部分我們看到無人機無人艇的應用可說是進來了世界潮流不僅廣泛運用在軍事佈局當然也運用在海巡署的海岸巡防"},{"start":8105.717,"end":8125.765,"text":"我想請教師說無人機的應用有幾個問題譬如說飛行的續航力或者是環境的適應最重要的是目前我國操作的人手不足的問題請問在這筆特別預算裡面有沒有把握來補足目前遇到的這些問題怎麼樣去運用這樣的經費"},{"start":8128.986,"end":8147.056,"text":"各位委員報告我們第一批完成授訓考照已經在前兩天考完了所以人才的問題培訓我們都已經前瞻部署都已經超前部署考照前兩天就第一批考了我相信應該成績會不錯"},{"start":8149.898,"end":8178.197,"text":"所以請委員放心我們有各種不同類型的無人機根據它的耐風性還有根據它的續航力還有它的距離都有不一樣的部署最重要的是希望說空中的量能一定要完成好 謝謝主委那我們再來請教勞動部有一個推動植物再設計服務計畫這個其實是為了減緩身心障礙者 工作上的障礙"},{"start":8179.017,"end":8185.962,"text":"然後勞動部的推動植物再設計服務計畫它可以補助相關的輔具本席對於這項計畫的輔具費用的補助設計有點疑問"},{"start":8189.537,"end":8217.145,"text":"我舉例來說以申請補助這個點字觸摸顯示器為例高階一點的這個點字觸摸顯示器超過差不多10萬塊那網路上查到有超過12萬那我們就以12萬元來看點字觸摸顯示器在身心障礙者輔具費用補助基準表裡面最高補助是7萬元那如果不是低收跟中低收那輔助費用"},{"start":8217.845,"end":8234.942,"text":"最高補助是50%也就是三萬五千元那代表一般的民眾還要負擔八萬五千那依照勞動部這個推動植物再設計服務計畫第十一點的規定補助額度應先扣除身心障礙者之社政補助最高額"},{"start":8235.703,"end":8257.717,"text":"等於是你購買12萬還要扣掉這個社政補助最高7萬那勞動部只補助5萬而且條文中我提到說再就其餘而據以評估也就是說扣掉社政的最高補助勞動部不一定會補滿因為時間的關係所以要請教說那像這樣子的話有沒有所謂改善的空間因為以日本為例的話日本是補助9成"},{"start":8258.578,"end":8285.88,"text":"九成是政府負擔一成才是自行負擔所以如果按照這樣的話他三吃十我們又改善了空間嗎好 謝謝委員我們基本上應該這樣看聲音障礙朋友就業是一個重點我們認為在合理調整都是需要的政府機關能夠協助的部分一個重點就是輔具的提供對 輔具有關於相關輔具的一些規定或者資格條件這部分我們會回過頭再來仔細"},{"start":8287.261,"end":8296.805,"text":"再檢討看看 你看日本就補助九成 也是輔具OK 謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝我們林委員接下來請李昆成委員發言謝謝主席 我們請海委會管主委請管主委"},{"start":8317.244,"end":8319.145,"text":"主委慢慢來 沒關係林委員好主委好這次的特別預算在海委會的部分有295億6千多萬其中包含強化國土防衛能量279億其中籌補各式海空無人載具編列了40億9千多萬"},{"start":8345.693,"end":8367.547,"text":"當初你們編的這個預算其實我相信我們都會支持因為的確我們這個海陸空要立體來支援我請問一下主委 這個特別預算這只有無人機嗎 有包含無人艇嗎預計籌補多少海空無人載具需求的類型為何"},{"start":8369.384,"end":8383.475,"text":"跟委員報告我們在無人機的部分有分進程 中程 建載還有特勤所需總共加起來是451架你說這次特別預算要籌補的是不是450"},{"start":8385.076,"end":8406.31,"text":"總共是451架我們分年來編列的話這一次的特別預算絕大部分都編在這一次的特別預算希望能夠一次來補足因為我們有非常急迫的需要就是希望這一次特別預算能夠補足451架就對了那這是無人機部分所以這是沒有無人艇的部分"},{"start":8406.83,"end":8430.115,"text":"跟委員報告 其中有建載的部分我們這一次特別預算還不夠我們未來要補後面的尾數這樣子但是我們需要趕快的能夠上路另外無人艇的部分 我們目前的規劃是25艘目前是25艘水下也是在特別預算裡面"},{"start":8431.055,"end":8446.937,"text":"那水下的部分我們大概實驗性的我們會先引進那數量比較是個位數我們先來引進所以水面25然後水下的是實驗型的是 但是我們也有水下聲納的部分是"},{"start":8447.558,"end":8450.001,"text":"我們水下聲浪現在必須要加強部署譬如說我們有好幾次黑盒子是靠海巡的水下的聲浪第一時間很快的先去測掃以後能夠定位"},{"start":8463.017,"end":8478.988,"text":"因為我看主委有去參觀這一個國防展你說要投入68億推無人載具可是我們看到預算是大概40幾億所以這個多出來的基本上不到68億因為這期間還有包括其他的親間徵在裡面"},{"start":8481.99,"end":8496.416,"text":"對 這個68億有包含其他的譬如說我們的勤奸針的系統這個是立體嘛有水下 有水面無人艇然後還有無人機以外我們還有次世代的雷達還有紅外線還有環島的港艦等等那我了解那請教一下主委不過因為我們過去這個海巡署"},{"start":8502.359,"end":8527.211,"text":"從107年到108年還有112年到116年都有兩項無人機的採購但是這個計畫好像執行力都有一點落差我舉最近的112年到116年的計畫因為無人機的引擎技術超越廠商能力所及所以沒有辦法執行這個案子然後你們在去年9月修正這個計畫"},{"start":8528.351,"end":8541.307,"text":"所以等於這個計畫到目前為止都等於是沒有在執行跟委員報告海巡署是國防部以外中華民國政府最早使用無人機的我是說這個計畫國內的產業也是持續在發展預算通過給你們之後"},{"start":8546.813,"end":8561.537,"text":"有沒有信心目前產業的成熟度已經相當的成熟目前我們的規劃都可以來達成買到我們所需要的所以現有的無人機體有符合現在的需求嗎還是還要再等"},{"start":8562.377,"end":8577.125,"text":"現有的無人機我們需要再更升級對 那我說預算特別預算通過之後你們要買的是現有的已經有現貨就對了對已經有現貨就對了是技術上成熟的商品化了你們在執行上面的確有出現問題因為客製化客製化"},{"start":8583.868,"end":8595.357,"text":"執行有問題的這個是因為我們客製化那現在沒有客製化就是了那廠商最後能力還不到那個是國內整體產業的問題那最後一點時間主委請我請一下顧部長最後一個問題你邊走我邊念烏克蘭總統俄羅斯基有點名台灣的零件用於俄軍的無人機跟飛彈有這件事情嗎"},{"start":8613.13,"end":8640.915,"text":"我這邊沒有相關的訊息沒有相關的訊息那有去了解嗎因為這個是他們的總統哲倫斯基親自寫出來就是說台灣有這個零件用在這個俄國的無人機跟飛彈那你們有去了解嗎因為這個報導出來之後你們有去了解嗎我想有關於這些民間他們在相關的這些零組件的供應鏈上面我想是可能是相當的"},{"start":8643.649,"end":8665.776,"text":"有一個不是那麼直接的一個管道那我們沒有辦法能夠排除但是我們也沒有辦法進一步來進行確認因為相關的這些都屬於民間的部分你要去確認因為就算是民間的你們也要去確認就像說台塑去買的這個俄羅斯的油一樣那現在如果民間的這些零件用在俄國的無人機的話"},{"start":8666.776,"end":8686.474,"text":"我覺得這對台灣人的形象不好而且這個是指輪司機他指輪司機他直接點名因為民間部我想我們會跟經濟部一起來這個來調查清楚好不好要不要我們跟經濟部一起來來調查清楚那調查結果再跟本席來做說明再跟李坤城委員來做報告好不好好 謝謝李坤城委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":8705.831,"end":8714.596,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟上首長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部鞏部長請起經濟部鞏部長部長好 部長請教一下輝達NVIDIA是台灣公司還是美國公司"},{"start":8728.327,"end":8744.267,"text":"輝達應該算是美國公司那請問如果NVIDIA來到台灣投資社國外總部是不是會掏空美國應該不會那你認為是不是各國包括政府都會全力爭取輝達NVIDIA到他的國家設立總部"},{"start":8745.904,"end":8774.245,"text":"會應該會嘛每個國家每個政府都會這樣做嘛那如果台北市政府為了這件事情他去修法或修改契約你認為會構成圖利揮打嗎NVIDIA嗎這個就要法規上來判斷如果政府權力包括中央政府我們修法或修改契約爭取他來台灣設立總部這應該是國人所熱見的會有圖利揮打NVIDIA還是圖利台灣呢"},{"start":8774.825,"end":8795.393,"text":"日前內政部劉部長有做說明如果說他們台北市變更了以後然後經過議會同意然後送到行政院來備檔只要經過合法的程序就不會有圖利的問題很好那請問經濟部你是否願意爭取包括像NVIDIA這樣的先進產業包括不限於輝達像這樣的公司來到台灣設廠投資當然"},{"start":8797.054,"end":8823.932,"text":"事实上我们跟辉达已经有在合作的案子就是Aplus计划就是共同有一个研发计划正在执行当中所以他们在台湾也有设立了这个研发中心所以经济部是乐见其成也是有机会有去全力争取就对了好 我们来看一下那你怎么看待台湾的产业到美国投资如果美国的厂商到台湾投资不是掏空美国那台湾的产业到美国投资有人说是掏空台湾吗"},{"start":8825.747,"end":8848.133,"text":"你是否同意包括我們施政榮先生說的話他說如果台灣產業到美國投資是擴張我們的能力把國力淹上美國去人財土地水電用當地的美國的本土的技術或資金建立起來他如果是這樣反而是我們競爭者但是我們過去就是全球布局你是否認同將台灣的國力擴張到包括美國這樣的世界布局"},{"start":8849,"end":8862.788,"text":"當然 因為將來是一個AI競爭的一個社會或社會秩序所以你認同施政榮先生的這番話認同好 我往下看我們的政府院長說台灣模式投資美國什麼叫台灣模式"},{"start":8864.104,"end":8888.994,"text":"是要企業自主規劃但是政府負責整合民間然後政府要提供金融信保機制然後台美之間的G2G政府對政府的模式讓產業聚落形成構成一個良好的投資環境你認為這是政府院長的台灣模式這是副院長說明的好 那經濟部有在落實嗎目前經濟部所在做的你認為台灣的產業聚落到美國需要哪些條件配合"},{"start":8890.089,"end":8918.784,"text":"包括委員就是這個我們還是要尊重美國的在地協助水電要解決對不對行政程序土地要解決基礎設施還有簽證的法規是不是也要處理是那說這樣就夠了嗎這樣你說單純這樣還夠嗎就夠了嗎還不夠還不夠好我們看一看來所謂的經濟部是不是有個原管局是不是產業園區管理局過去在台灣這幾十年來創造了一個模式叫做什麼叫做單一窗口一戰四服對不對是"},{"start":8920.024,"end":8944.329,"text":"經濟部很擅長 你看我們包括土地 水電行政程序還有基礎設施剛剛講過的簽證法規 金融信保包括環境勞工消防稅務還有補助研發跟法規通通都是一站式的服務單一窗口對不對是請問這樣的模式如果搬到美國去美國當地的法規會允許我們台灣這樣延伸嗎延伸我們的政府服務"},{"start":8945.511,"end":8973.289,"text":"這個就是要我們跟美國政府來做對談很好 所以趕快做我們往下看所以我們來看一下輸出台灣經驗形成產業聚落我們企業出海我們要得到經濟部的支持我們可以在金融信保補助跟研發等等等但是相對的這些輔導措施涉及到當地的當地國政府的行政程序他對環境勞工消防稅務的法規是不是也要遵守當地的法尊"},{"start":8974.464,"end":8989.986,"text":"是所以說這個輔導的部分我們台灣政府要輔導我們台灣的產業到其他國家形成產業聚落後面的輔導是不是很重要是好 那往下看那是不是經濟部你已經針對現有的原管局的單一窗口跟一站式的服務項目"},{"start":8990.507,"end":9014.222,"text":"基於未來台灣產業要出海要到境外那麼有開始針對哪一個國家當地的法規盤點來探討我們台灣政府有沒有可能持續這種一戰式的服務到境外他國的境內我們的境外他國的境內去協助台灣的產業發展居落經濟部做好準備沒有"},{"start":9015.115,"end":9033.704,"text":"我們事實上一直有在做這樣的準備至少對當然民間企業有TIMA在他們想要做這件事情那政府的部分已經有開始的主要是我們有一個這個服務中心已經開始啟動了好 你們的服務中心是有對海外境外的"},{"start":9035.306,"end":9059.409,"text":"產業俱樂部進行服務了嗎就是說我們在捷克跟日本請針對現有經濟部的單一窗口一站式的服務就未來台灣產業到境外我們當地的法規是否允許我們提供這樣的支持跟輔導原理方案一個月提出說明報告可以嗎好的好 謝謝好 謝謝我們中間嘉賓委員接下來我們請林思敏召委"},{"start":9062.254,"end":9076.664,"text":"林思敏召委質詢結束之後換任一個李燕秀委員李燕秀委員質詢完之後我們就休息十分鐘好 請好 謝謝主席我們請經濟部龔部長還有衛福部的李次長"},{"start":9078.867,"end":9106.847,"text":"好 我們請鞏部長還有呂次長召委好部長我想我接續鍾嘉斌委員的質詢我想今年四月美國宣布對等關稅的時候我們全台灣從工廠的老闆到小攤販大家都在擔心大家怕物價漲 怕訂單掉怕生活更難過當時朝野都在喊政府要拿出辦法讓人民撐得下去日子過得下去"},{"start":9107.808,"end":9132.734,"text":"那麼行政院提出就提出韌性特別預算金額從4100億增加到我們現在的5700億聽起來增加很多但是我們看內容經濟部只有編列460億佔比大概就是大概佔8%那我們看到國防海防的安全韌性預算編列將近1500億佔比大概27%"},{"start":9137.631,"end":9144.309,"text":"所以本席想要請問部長這筆錢不是說要幫助企業嗎要顧民生嗎"},{"start":9145.441,"end":9166.355,"text":"但是這樣的一個預算的編列要讓人民怎麼感受到我們民生經濟的韌性我們老百姓只看到菜價一直在漲 店價一直在漲物價在漲 韌性在哪裡所以如此對於經濟上對於產業的紓困的規模是否會過小"},{"start":9167.876,"end":9177.059,"text":"對於美國貿易衝擊的力道我們的強化是不是會不足所以尤其我們現在面對232條款的以及20%疊加關稅的談判現在正在進行中"},{"start":9183.781,"end":9194.467,"text":"所以產業界面對未來的一個困境仍然是在未定之數政府此次編列5500億的特別預算經濟部的預算規模僅佔8%是否顯然低估了關稅的風險與衝擊"},{"start":9203.999,"end":9228.668,"text":"部長請簡單回答我們當初有做一個估算如果是單純的關稅問題來講的話那時候估的是32%公佈以後我們是用這樣的基礎來做編列當然後面的談判過程當中也有可能有滾動式的變化所以為什麼我們保留了200億可以再做增減至於就是剛剛提到的其他部分因為"},{"start":9231.089,"end":9245.955,"text":"國際情勢不單單只是關稅而已還包括地緣政治還有其他的情勢的關係所以為什麼要提升會有其他的這個項目在這裡面就我了解是這樣部長 你當然回答這樣我想我比較關心的是新竹的問題"},{"start":9247.256,"end":9264.946,"text":"我想部長我來自大新竹大新竹是科技的重鎮新竹的科學園區我們讓無數家庭靠著工程師這樣的一個工作有一個安穩的生活但是我們最近聽說政府要協助美國要在他的本土"},{"start":9265.626,"end":9287.106,"text":"建類台灣科學園區剛才宗嘉兵委員也講不管是法規面的問題整個園區服務的一個問題牽涉的面非常的廣所以本席真的很擔心尤其我們賴清澤總統在日前接受美國保守派名嘴賽斯頓的專訪他表示說這個"},{"start":9291.07,"end":9306.889,"text":"政府支持台積電去美日德投資也樂意與美國一起努力讓美國再次偉大所以我要問部長讓美國再次偉大我們台灣到底要付出多少代價難道不應該是以台灣的利益為優先嗎"},{"start":9308.03,"end":9321.787,"text":"當然以台灣利益為先大委員新竹的園區是全世界的典範我們現在一直在擴大新竹的聚落的一個行程現在只是擔心它的地跟水電不足而已如果夠的話事實上我們會擴大它的"},{"start":9323.729,"end":9351.778,"text":"我想部長 水 電 土 地我自己居住在那邊我非常知道目前來講都沒有問題寶山第三水庫甚至也在規劃興建當中據我所了解所以水的問題都沒有問題當然電可能這部分可能要再加強土地當然我們科學園區三期我聽說好像明年也會有一個著落所以土地也會釋放出來所以我擔心的就是我剛才一直提的"},{"start":9352.538,"end":9369.041,"text":"如果我們要在美國建類科學園區啊這樣會不會肥了美國瘦了台灣啊不會是不是我們會把台積電送到美國現在連整個科學園區也要一起送過去啊不會送過去會不會是這個問題啊是把我們的能量的延伸"},{"start":9370.652,"end":9387.088,"text":"所以我們的力量我們地主台灣台灣的力量會更大今天你在這邊回答說能量的延伸但是我們還是很多產業界大家非常的擔心我們一直說要守護矽頓如果說在美國本土建造類台灣科學園區"},{"start":9388.989,"end":9405.918,"text":"這個是否會造成我們整個產業外移以及人才的流失這就好像NVIDIA為什麼要在台灣設立它的研發中心或總部就是因為它來這邊設立以後對NVIDIA是更好我想我的結論我希望我們政府面對美國的談判"},{"start":9406.798,"end":9431.815,"text":"我們不是只有配合而已我們要有自己的底線要確保耕留台灣確保產業留在台灣就業留在台灣實力留在台灣人民最擔心的不是僅有跟台美半導體的合作關係而是我們整個護國神山是不是會被整群搬走所以我想政府一定要考量以台灣利益為最優先好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":9435.197,"end":9438.441,"text":"好 謝謝林思明 趙偉接下來我們請李燕秀委員"},{"start":9445.441,"end":9471.251,"text":"好謝謝主席因為今天的時間非常短但是特別預算對國家來說每個項目都非常的重要除了四大主軸十一大措施其實我們看到很多項目其實平常在各部會在總預算項目上其實我們都可以看得到那我就先回到最後我的訴求第一個我希望對於特別預算的部分我請主席長跟部長請主席長"},{"start":9476.696,"end":9499.559,"text":"還有我覺得過去大家外界都對於對於特別預算是空白支票授權變成常態化大家有很多不同的聲音所以我覺得為了對於我們特別預算的重視我希望未來對於財政影響的更完整的評估報告包括必須要揭露未來對於年度預算普通的衝擊"},{"start":9500.62,"end":9527.108,"text":"我覺得更應該要進一步的說明這是第一點我的訴求第二點我覺得針對特別預算的執行報告成果包括它的效益影響評估也應該納入審計部的定期的審查這是第二點我的建議第三點過去這幾年我們都非常喜歡行政院一個公開平台公民機制大家一起來參與公開透明所以每一項預算都很重要"},{"start":9528.708,"end":9556.766,"text":"但是到底編列在總預算裡面或者是應該編列在特別預算裡面大家各自有不同的立場跟聲音所以未來如何引進第三方的審查包括公民監督的報告制度公開透明是長期我們行政院過去民進黨執政這十年以來常在提的所以未來如何引進公民參與的機制這四大主軸十一項"},{"start":9558.067,"end":9572.001,"text":"在我們行政院的平台在主計部都看得到我希望主計長在接下來報告朝野協商針對這幾個問題有更具體的說明好 謝謝主計長那我先回到我今天質詢的主軸我要問財政部部長"},{"start":9573.635,"end":9593.545,"text":"主席長你可以回座謝謝 部長委員好你好 我們這一次普發現金的部分不只是平常媒體在幫你宣傳還不用花錢我們所有的明代都在幫你宣傳我也關注到我們這一次編列的包括普發現金的媒體的宣傳費達到1350萬"},{"start":9596.767,"end":9600.71,"text":"但是過去我們並不是第一次補發現金過去馬英九任內 蔡總統任內我們都有補發現金過去我們今年剪裂過去我們編列到1550萬這一次剪裂了200萬但是我們看整體預算執行的效果"},{"start":9615.162,"end":9619.105,"text":"過去編列1550萬我們整理預算執行也達到99.69%那花的預算金額其實我們花了預算專節我們花了819萬就已經達到了宣傳的效果那因為我今天時間有限我就希望請問部長"},{"start":9638.838,"end":9644.123,"text":"過去花了800多萬尊潔我們已經達到99.69%的效果你覺得我們花到1350萬你預計達到的成果是什麼有什麼不一樣你宣傳的管道媒體的效果跟過去有什麼不一樣為什麼要花那麼多的錢我今天為什麼要舉這個例子出來"},{"start":9660.336,"end":9667.878,"text":"我覺得預算應該尊潔使用你可以告訴我做法有什麼不一樣管道有什麼不一樣預計達到成果是百分之百嗎跟委員報告對於這個普發現金這樣的一個媒體宣導我們認為應該要更作為加強那當然您就說國人都很關心大家都知道但是各種領取的方式我們還是要做詳細的解說我沒有說不給你"},{"start":9686.983,"end":9708.96,"text":"我是說過去花800多萬可以達到99.69%的效果多元的管道一樣都一樣在做同樣的宣傳你為什麼一定要花到1350萬跟委員報告還有這一次對於防炸的部分就是說我們避免民眾被炸我們各部會現在都有編列相關的預算在做防炸"},{"start":9709.6,"end":9720.103,"text":"每一個政務的推動應該都在各政務列管底下做有不同的受眾我們要特別注意比如說看手機的我們的防災本來就是不同的受眾都要宣傳除了領取的方式也要做宣傳還有各個時間點我只是舉例提出這件事情事實上我覺得應該達到尊爵的效果"},{"start":9731.127,"end":9749.621,"text":"當然我們為尊潔然後也是我們在整合作的效果在如果是這樣我們每編列一筆政務預算或者跟民眾有關的我們是不是都要在另外的編列一筆預算來做防詐跨部會的防詐這是我要提醒你的地方因為只剩下22秒我請教育部部長時間先暫停一下好 我們請教育部長鄭部長"},{"start":9774.301,"end":9792.811,"text":"部長我只要你看一個表格就好是你知道哪一個表格有一個表格預算哪一筆是特別預算哪一筆是115年度的總預算你看那個表格左邊的表格還是右邊的表格你不要打pass給他你問一下我問一下部長左邊左邊是什麼"},{"start":9798.291,"end":9818.161,"text":"又提升大專校院校務治理支持高教育產業合作共培人才部長你覺得這符合特別預算編列的精神嗎我們看一下特別預算編列四大精神是什麼我想主計長非常清楚災害應變 國防需求 經濟景氣變動重大事故變動"},{"start":9821.124,"end":9837.709,"text":"我覺得每一項預算都很重要但是到底應該放在總預算來編或追加預算人才培育我支持但是可以放在追加預算跟委員報告日本因為這一次的國際集市他們編了一千億用來延攬人才部長"},{"start":9838.909,"end":9856.838,"text":"我沒有否定今年應該編但是你可以用追加預算來編因為我認為這項預算不符合特別預算編列的精神在我沒有否定喔不要最後去外面放話說我否定我沒有否定但是我認為應該用追加預算來編應該追加預算來編而不應該放在特別預算讓特別預算的編列服用濫用以上是我的質詢 謝謝總責 謝謝召委"},{"start":9867.226,"end":9872.101,"text":"謝謝聯繫委員我們謝謝所有的各位部會首長那我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":10482.418,"end":10510.695,"text":"好我們繼續開會請大家保持安靜請就座好我們接下來請張宏祿委員發言好請我請財政部長好請財政部那個財政部莊部長"},{"start":10521.277,"end":10532.148,"text":"委員好部長我們今天審的這個特別預算裡面有一個是普發現金一萬塊的是不是是 是的我想說我再請教妳 妳不回答沒有 因為那個聲音實在不太容易聽得清楚然後"},{"start":10546.673,"end":10563.663,"text":"我為什麼要特別請教你我看到你們裡面有編了一筆預算是在宣傳然後也有防詐騙的這個部分那這個部分你們有沒有跟內政部警政署有沒有互相溝通這筆錢要怎麼花"},{"start":10566.557,"end":10581.738,"text":"委員報告對於防詐這一塊在我們的工作小組裡面有一個分組就打擊詐欺這一個組而且內政部他也是次長是那個小組的小組長那我們跟內政部當然也跟警政署甚至檢調機關"},{"start":10583.019,"end":10604.97,"text":"以及速發部都有合作我們成立一個專案小組然後24小時會監測相關的網站那對於有關logo或類似的像用的很接近的都隨時會抓到然後就去封他的網這個部分也會隨時告訴民眾說有這種情形不要被受騙上當還有其他的一個方式都有在做"},{"start":10606.24,"end":10620.009,"text":"可是其實現在新聞媒體報導也有很多這個詐騙的手段已經出現了那你們如果說像剛剛你們說的你們是有多少成效了部分內政部那邊都有詳細的數據內政部呢內政部劉部長"},{"start":10643.555,"end":10665.953,"text":"是謝謝那個委員的指教其實就這次普發現金裡面在我們刑事局已經有下架好幾個社群網站而且陸陸續續在增加當中也就是說這次在我們還沒有普發現金之前的這個防詐的部分我們包括刑事局還有各地的警政機關都已經開始做大量的宣傳"},{"start":10667.97,"end":10694.937,"text":"我今天要特別要講這個普發獻金其實我全國人都知道但年輕的人也都知道大概比較不會被受騙針對比如說65歲 70歲以上的這些年長者我必須要說他們連電視也都不看的"},{"start":10696.501,"end":10714.451,"text":"他們每天都坐在大樹下這邊聊天而已這一種其實我認為這個受騙機率最高謝謝委員的指教我們這個可能會在宮廟美容院 美髮院或是大樹下我們會做紅布條然後字要越大越好因為老人家視力不好"},{"start":10715.271,"end":10728.758,"text":"所以我們要有165的反詐騙盡量把它口語化因為去年我們一共有五萬條紅布條放在宮廟裡面效果很不錯所以委員如果可以提供我們適當地點的話我們會針對比較有可能受到詐騙集團來做這些詐騙的話會做比較好的口語化的宣傳"},{"start":10738.999,"end":10755.844,"text":"做紅布條也不反對但有的老人家眼睛就霧霧的你再怎麼大他也看不到他也看不懂我今天為什麼要特別問莊部長錢是編在你們這邊吧編在我們這邊那你知道這一些年長者他們的資訊來源大概都是哪裡"},{"start":10767.14,"end":10783.131,"text":"我們知道我們所以在電台也有做拖播在一些小的地區性的電台因為很多民眾喜歡就是老人家喜歡聽收音機這也是一個管道還有電視還有相關的一些車站我們也都會用影片的方式來做播放我覺得啦"},{"start":10784.403,"end":10798.348,"text":"地方性的那種就像這個部長你不要說人家小電台地區性的電台他們常常聽的就是這些也不要再去說什麼防詐騙或什麼"},{"start":10800.529,"end":10804.951,"text":"就直接20秒或什麼的跟他講這領一萬塊現金政府怎麼給你領你不用任何其他人來跟你講都不要相信我覺得最直接這樣就可以了這個部分你們也可以問警政署我覺得錢要花在對的地方謝謝委員的提示 謝謝我們會這樣做我們地區電台也會做拖播"},{"start":10826.667,"end":10829.49,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員接下來請賴銳龍委員發言 謝謝謝主席請財政部的莊部長跟經濟部的拱部長拱部長還有莊部長有請"},{"start":10850.056,"end":10875.075,"text":"先請到兩位部長其實面對國際的變局強化我們相關的韌性包括我們經濟的基礎等等這個我認為是我們應該大力支持我想這個預算全力支持那也希望我們妥善的來執行達到一個好的成效不管是在面對國際的情勢或者是我們國家的一些安全等等這些工作"},{"start":10876.377,"end":10897.638,"text":"但是裡面其實有牽涉到幾些面向首先我第一個要問一下經濟部長他這個關稅的衝擊其實對產產來說有相當大的一個影響特別是高雄在金屬扣件的部分有相當大的一個影響的部分我知道部長有下去跟這些扣金業者有溝通過了部長有沒有什麼樣一些方案可以來協助業者的部分"},{"start":10898.6,"end":10917.683,"text":"我想就是我们现在整个预算的分布有三大部分一个是金融上的协助金融上的协助大概我们再次强调宇天是不会收场可以展延有金融的支持金融支持第二个是转型升级上的支持"},{"start":10918.624,"end":10941.716,"text":"轉型它的資質我們會有輔導團下去看到底需要怎麼做轉型AI導入怎麼導入讓它升級轉型那第三個就是拓展多元市場他們在海外參展我們會給予補助跟甚至於設置台灣館給他們協助但是那個扣件它還有另外的就是扣件如果他們可以在特殊領域獲得認證的話"},{"start":10943.217,"end":10969.76,"text":"事實上它價格是非常好的比如說它專業用在汽車上或航太上或特殊用途上那我想這個是比較特殊的那這個部分我們會看看輔導團也會協助他們強化這個可以讓他們可以我希望部長要加強這個力道好不好特別是中南部的中小企業特別是扣建產業在這一塊受到相當大的一些影響我希望能夠整個部長能夠加重這一塊的力道"},{"start":10970.541,"end":10988.343,"text":"特別是在整個裡面我們有一些知識產業的預算我也希望能夠有效的用在這些刀口上給這些扣薪業者 中小企業給他們更多的支持因為他們影響到很多的一些家庭也影響到很多的一些整個南部的企業的發展我希望部長再加強這樣的力道是 會"},{"start":10989.364,"end":11018.357,"text":"那接下來我也請教一下這個研發的比例這個部分其實我認為都要持續增加特別是在傳產的這個部分所以我也希望這一塊部長在未來能夠持續的加重就是說我們現在當然不管是從半導體產業或其他的甚至AI產業我們都努力在但是對於傳統產業對於這些基礎產業其實它是國家的很重要的一些產業但是他們的研發其實我認為還是要持續的加重我也希望"},{"start":11019.538,"end":11031.627,"text":"經濟部 政府這邊能夠持續有更多的一些政策手段來協助他們的研發的升級讓他們未來更具有競爭力這部長要不要講一下對 因為所以我們會已經開始組這個輔導團這個輔導團是產官學院所組成的"},{"start":11035.029,"end":11054.058,"text":"那會下到這個企業端去看看他剛剛提到的他研發要走哪一個方向AI導入要怎麼導入不是啊我希望有一些具體的方案出來了好不好更具體的這個會後再提供給我了好不好完整的一些具體方案來協助中小企業協助傳統產業的部分的升級的部分好不好"},{"start":11055.038,"end":11083.284,"text":"接下來我問一下輝達在台北的這個部分其實高雄也努力在爭取高雄包括亞灣的智慧科技創新園區包括輝達AMD也都在高雄有投資了高雄其實是很好的一個地點當然輝達有他的一些考量部長有沒有機會未來如果確實不一定在台北能夠的話高雄是一個適合地點有沒有可能用政府的力量協助這個業界有機會到高雄來設置它這個總部"},{"start":11084.814,"end":11105.353,"text":"我想輝達當然是有他自己的考量現在他當然現在還在關心的就是北市科這塊地但是據我們了解輝達也跟我們表示說他也不排除其他的地方不排除其他地方也不排除高雄但是總是"},{"start":11106.854,"end":11119.14,"text":"到台灣來設立總部也好研發中心也好不會只有NVIDIA一家而已還有其他的很多很多的一些企業那我們都歡迎也希望到部長高雄有沒有機會爭取到輝達的總部在高雄進駐"},{"start":11120.554,"end":11140.033,"text":"這個可能要NVIDIA對 我意思是說我還是希望政府能夠在均衡發展上面以前的時候在這些高雄其實是不太有機會但這幾年其實惠達AMD也在高雄陸續有一些投資了AI產業也在高雄陸續投資我們也希望政府有時候加一些力道"},{"start":11140.794,"end":11162.181,"text":"不是只有台北才是唯一的選擇其實高雄在這方面也做了很多不管是人力 土地或者是相關的水電都做好了充足的準備的時候我們認為有時候適度的跟業者溝通往高雄去移動其實是一個很好的選擇區域均衡發展很好的選擇現在已經是進行式的最先進的半導體的製程已經到高雄去了"},{"start":11162.261,"end":11186.543,"text":"我們希望有一些大型國際的大型的這些平台業者事實上也進駐到高雄我們希望再繼續努力好不好輝達有機會能夠進到高雄對高雄絕對是一大重大的一個鼓勵最後一個我問一下財政部長財化法的部分其實這個過去提出來這個版本我認為對北部縱北清南縱南清綠其實非常不公平的那這個部分"},{"start":11187.484,"end":11215.436,"text":"財政部會提出財政法的修法版本我已經提出來了財政部會提出修法的版本嗎讓這些不公不義的一些法案重新再回到合理的一個狀態是的 財政部已經召集地方政府以及相關中央機關召開三次會議那我們會在廣徵各界意見以後再來討論部長什麼時候會提出來因為如果依照現行的版本對中南部的縣市真的很不公平對 現在的水平分配確實有很大的一個問題因為造成城鄉差距更為拉大所以這個部分我們"},{"start":11215.836,"end":11232.004,"text":"不管有沒有目標什麼時間至少提出一個版本出來這個部分我們會持續的爭相關的意見然後跟內政院一起做我希望未來要整體的思考不要讓國家傾斜的更嚴重如果持續的縱北傾南的話這對國家整體發展是不好的謝謝謝謝謝謝賴日龍委員謝謝接下來請羅明財委員"},{"start":11246.024,"end":11273.893,"text":"謝謝主席在座初烈習慣人各位委員大家好主席開會請主席長財政部莊部長請主席長陳主席長經濟部國安部長還有國安部長還有委員好這個開會很重要中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案"},{"start":11275.275,"end":11279.738,"text":"相關普發現金的問題總金額是多少普發現金的部分是財政部 它是2361億今天講特別預算上面不是寫5000多億全部是5500億"},{"start":11303.692,"end":11308.515,"text":"5500億 5700億我們都知道去年的稅收是超徵5280億那"},{"start":11315.376,"end":11338.226,"text":"這五千兩百八十億的部分其中有一部分是屬於地方政府的部分那所以這個部分要分給地方政府那我們中央的部分才有三千七百多億而已對 你扣掉還有三千七百多億嘛那稅收年年超徵事實上這些錢如果累積加起來十年你有沒有算過稅收一共超徵幾兆這個部分是不是由財政部來好啊 那你請財政部長"},{"start":11347.278,"end":11348.078,"text":"來 請莊部長莊部長是那按理說這十年來稅收超徵的部分也將近一兆八千億啊"},{"start":11364.845,"end":11382.163,"text":"跟委員報告沒有所謂的超徵只是我們的實徵數有超過預算數那如果超過預算數的話事實上第一個我們會優先還債然後再累計到我們的稅計剩餘所以沒有像委員說的有這麼多的錢"},{"start":11383.684,"end":11403.553,"text":"部長 那你看我們在同樣的地方就在討論普發現金一萬塊那你現在這次的預算提出來到底要不要普發現金一萬給所有的民眾特別條例就已經規定了所以這一次的特別預算也有把這個普發現金一萬塊納進來編了2360億所以我們是不是要掌聲要鼓勵你"},{"start":11411.667,"end":11427.722,"text":"感謝財政部部長還有主計長也算了感謝你們可是大家問題又來了這個問題已經講了快一年多了很多民眾在說為什麼我們的速度會那麼慢"},{"start":11428.857,"end":11450.789,"text":"而且去年同樣的地點在討論一萬的時候不是說有一些委員跳出來說不要不行不能做有自愛難行的地方那你現在為什麼又提出來現在沒有自愛難行了嗎這一次我們除了移用稅基剩餘之外另外有舉借1056億的經費"},{"start":11454.278,"end":11481.985,"text":"对 所以你就速度快一点嘛很多民众说 哇 拜托就是为了这一万块已经等了快一年多这个有时候想一想喔全世界没有人速度那么慢的啦好 你看新加坡上次说要普发现金普发了没香港说要普发现金 发了没美国也发全世界到处都在发"},{"start":11483.069,"end":11502.017,"text":"人家速度很快我們現在還在討論拿到一萬塊有五種方式可以拿到這一萬塊是五種還是六種一般就是有五種方式跟112年六千塊是同樣的一個方式來發放"},{"start":11503.035,"end":11515.11,"text":"因為你們的速度太慢了所以本席選擇我這一次可能應該也會領但我領出來 我要捐出來我捐給財政部財政部缺不缺錢"},{"start":11519.455,"end":11540.215,"text":"沒有捐給財政部財政部也沒有這個捐款的一個專戶因為每一次遇到討論財政的問題你們都看起來就是我沒錢沒錢你沒錢其實是有錢的去年稅收超徵那我請問部長你今年稅收有沒有超徵"},{"start":11541.503,"end":11569.084,"text":"跟委員報告114年到今年的8月底為止我們的時增數其實是低於去年同期的時增數我們的預算數又比去年多編了940比去年的時增數增加947億比去年時增數還高947億但我們今年的到8月底時增數是比去年少了300多億的所以接下來就是11 12月你有沒有信心達成目標"},{"start":11570.304,"end":11588.91,"text":"這個很具有一個挑戰性今年的我們的時增數能不能達到預算數要看今年9月那個暫繳稅款就營所稅的一個暫繳稅款的金額多少我大概算了一下今年稅收還是會超增我希望說今年如果超增 明年超增你可以普發現金常態化"},{"start":11590.791,"end":11610.689,"text":"不要說因為政黨輪替該還給民眾的 超收的這個稅收本來就還給人民嘛沒有所謂的超收每一塊錢的稅款都是依法徵收的沒有所謂的超收好 那請問部長我把這一萬塊捐給財政部大概什麼時候可以做到"},{"start":11611.63,"end":11619.639,"text":"政府沒有這個捐款的專戶沒有那我就捐給花蓮花蓮的民眾這個尊重每一位的選擇我們謝謝羅明財委員謝謝部長請回謝謝接下來請郭益勤委員發言"},{"start":11632.498,"end":11652.347,"text":"我做跟委會報告我們中午不休息我們大概在12點的時候開放用餐就請各位部會首長我們就現場用餐辛苦大家了 謝謝謝謝主席有請內政部部長請劉部長"},{"start":11662.216,"end":11689.072,"text":"委員好部長午安我想這次就是花蓮的這樣子的一個事故其實很多的轉傳的影片當中其實難免有一些真真假假那在這裡我想要問一下因為現在您的片段被剪成10秒鐘針對這個片段因為我往下再繼續看完整的片段其實是有被惡意剪接在這裡是不是也請部長來解釋一下"},{"start":11689.672,"end":11714.56,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想在網路流傳的片段他是後製的剪接10秒如果往前看或往後看就非常了解我是要指示請警校要勸離在堤防邊的民眾那對於受困的女子後續也有指示的救援那其實在整個的這個影片當中我還有特別提醒包括縣府的同仁不管做疏散撤離或管制都要注意自己本身的安全"},{"start":11715.2,"end":11742.928,"text":"那這個部分其實是非常明確的指示我只是不曉得第一個我沒有看過這個部分所以我昨天在跟記者回應的時候有提到現在的中央災害應變中心跟花蓮縣政府仍然是維持一級的警戒狀態如果有這種在網路上惡意的剪接的話影響到救災我們都一律用錯假訊息用災害防止救法來送辦所以這個部分其實連假訊息的部分其實我們也應該要嚴格的查辦我們一定會處理"},{"start":11744.448,"end":11753.773,"text":"因為今天時間的關係我就先讓部長先回應到這裡接下來我請教一下教育部部長請鄭部長教育部時間可以慢慢來我們時間暫停沒關係請部長慢慢來"},{"start":11771.653,"end":11791.169,"text":"委員好部長午安我想這次我們的教育部也編列了國安任性特別預算在教育部在教育的部分的用途上面我想我們特別編了200億分別是用在提升大專院校的經營另外還有一個強化高教跟產業的合作這兩方面"},{"start":11792.31,"end":11810.565,"text":"就是我們編了各100億的這樣子的一個經費但是我想這筆錢其實橫跨了這個校務的補助那麼老師的留任那另外還有一些產學合作等等多樣的一個項目其實範圍是很大的但是在執行的細項其實我們並不是那麼的清楚的羅列"},{"start":11811.366,"end":11834.101,"text":"那麼在這個部分來講其實在針對所謂的特別預算其實應該是比較屬於緊急或者是特定的一個任務但是像校務經營或者是教師留任的這些獎金是屬於長期的支出那我們當然也會擔心說我們是不是把所謂的用預算然後來"},{"start":11835.882,"end":11859.398,"text":"應該是說來蓋住我們這些必須要長期支出的預算只是為了數字漂亮而已喔那在這裡我提出一些問題喔就是關於我們的這個消務經營的一個補助那教育部我們規劃了投入65億那其中的他的準則是依照學生人口數的一個規模來做核算的一個補助但是在細項的部分其實並沒有交代的非常的清楚喔"},{"start":11859.758,"end":11881.968,"text":"那我想要問的是如果依照學生人數的一個補助學生比較少或者資源比較弱弱勢的一些學校他們拿的會更少那這個部分其實會不會拉大整個所有的資源的一個落差我們今天其實沒有時間讓部長好好的回答但是針對這個部分我建議這個教育部應該要公開各校補助金額跟計算的一個方式"},{"start":11883.028,"end":11910.612,"text":"那我們能夠這樣子做才能夠避免這個資源全部集中在所謂的大型的學校而不是為了要填補這個赤字然後忽略了整體在教學體質上的一個基本的一個問題這個是第一個問題那再來就是我提到的就是三年內不漲學費這看起來是好事看起來是好事但是對於某一些私校來講它有可能會變成是一種壓力喔因為弱勢學生比較多"},{"start":11911.332,"end":11938.161,"text":"支出又要比較高那相對的來講會不會越補越補就撐不下去我也擔心這樣的問題那這個事後我們再請教育部給我一個比較完整的謝謝委員提醒我想對經濟弱勢或者因為這一次這個整個國際其實大學它確實是在教學儀器設備在整個經營上確實是面臨比較大的挑戰因為我們知道國民教育中小學都是公務預算裡面"},{"start":11939.241,"end":11947.803,"text":"就能夠全力來支持但是我們因應這一個大學我們看到日本也編了1000億歐盟也編了5億的這一個都是用來延攬人才我想都看出世界各國在因應這個高等教育在人才的延攬包括幾多的營運上很弱勢的一個照顧我想這個"},{"start":11960.827,"end":11986.354,"text":"那再來第四點就是精進效務的經營的具體的財務的指標會是什麼這個我們事後再請教育部再跟我們來做更詳細的一個說明那第二點其實呢就是教育部在這一次我們特別講到了我們關於人才留任跟產學的一個合作那就高教人才永續發展的部分以及我們的高教產業的一個合作的部分我擔心的是這個所謂的應該是說"},{"start":11990.325,"end":12014.06,"text":"老師留任的獎金那他的標準發放的標準是什麼再來就是如果這位老師他中途他離職了是不是有追回的一些機制再來我們是不是都把所謂的資源集中在台清教程等等這六所的所謂的研究型的大學這也是我擔心的一個問題喔那我想的只有公開透明明確界定用途這200億"},{"start":12016.101,"end":12033.59,"text":"才能夠真正的落實台灣教育的一個品質跟我們的國家的一個韌性今天因為時間的關係那當然這個後續其實我們也希望有更多的機會可以跟教育部好好來討論這個部分好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝書記可以 可以 請書面答覆好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝國委員接下來請羅美玲委員發言"},{"start":12046.137,"end":12048.519,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國防部顧部長好 請國防部顧部長是 洛元好"},{"start":12062.564,"end":12084.439,"text":"部長好 部長我們這次的特別預算強化韌性有編列了1500億那其中有大約是一半預算是用在提升資通作業環境跟這個設備那當然包括了這個居民資通作業環境韌性跟設備效能提升計劃還有指管系統韌性及資安防護擴充計劃等五大計劃那這些計劃其實都涉及了這個資安防護的強化"},{"start":12092.264,"end":12100.117,"text":"足夠的治安專職人員來執行所以我想請教部長我們國境現有的治安人員是否能夠來做支持"},{"start":12103.344,"end":12129.531,"text":"委員能不能再說一遍您剛剛是說資安的人才是 資安的專職人才因為現在我們已經編列了1500億作為強化韌性我們有一半的預算都是用在提升資通作業環境跟設備還有資通安全的部分所以我想請教目前以我們國軍的資安人力的話我們有沒有辦法來支持跟應付"},{"start":12130.431,"end":12159.391,"text":"我們國防部有另辦一個叫做國軍通往店的發展的策略就針對這個人才的培育裝備的建置有一個明確的規劃那資安能力的培育也參考各國的做法來建立一個相關的機制跟流程所以我們會分成基礎訓練專業訓練跟高階訓練有不同來進行相關的這些培育的一些工作"},{"start":12160.671,"end":12184.003,"text":"OK 那我們所了解就是說像這個公司部門尤其是民間企業資安人才的需求它是不斷的在成長然後各個產業它將這個資安人力不足的作為呢這個視為是一個挑戰像國內的整體的企業資安人力呢我們看到是需求成長率是非常的高那我想請教國防部我們要如何跟民間企業來搶人才那"},{"start":12185.103,"end":12207.191,"text":"我們搶得過企業界嗎 想請問因為有沒有擔心說有我們的薪資或者是一些福利不如人又哪一些像除了剛剛部長所提到的一些政策之外那還有沒有其他的誘因來吸引這個人才的招人 請問我想這個可以分兩部分一部分就是家籍的部分"},{"start":12207.791,"end":12228.475,"text":"加急的部分一部分是我們進行的培育的部分因為在國軍的話他從事相關的這些培育我們是有一個定期然後一個週延的一個規劃然後來逐步的來培育他有一直有這樣的一個專業技能存在另外我們有往"},{"start":12228.615,"end":12248.286,"text":"網路站的佳績在114年6月也把它做一個提升那這樣子的一個網路站的一個佳績具體的方向數字大概就是說我們有分成不同的級別包括專精二級 專精一級 精英二級跟精英一級還有專家級等等"},{"start":12248.886,"end":12264.154,"text":"那當然不可諱言的民間的這個企業的資安人才的一個需求一定會衝擊到我們國軍在這部分的一個人才的招募但國軍的部分當然他就是說他"},{"start":12266.283,"end":12283.308,"text":"有一定的穩定我們再加上網路上加擠另外我們有一個比較系統性的栽培的話培養我們的一定的量人我們希望我們都能夠維護住這樣子的一個人才"},{"start":12284.534,"end":12300.627,"text":"所以部長您覺得說像目前我們所施行的這些政策其實就是一些很大的比如說您剛才講到的家計然後當然可能工作也比較穩定那我們可能還有系統性的栽培所以像這個我們都是優於企業的一個方針嗎我們覺得這樣子就是一個誘因嗎我們應該是說國防部在我們可以"},{"start":12311.206,"end":12328.455,"text":"資源可以因應的情況之下我們做最大的努力來吸引住這些人才然後來培育這些人才然後讓這些人才能夠被我們長留久用那還有一點我想請教就是我之前看到審計部在113年總決勝的審核報告裡面他有提到好幾個主管機關"},{"start":12334.998,"end":12353.136,"text":"他们这个治安专职人员其实呢有很多是没有取得治安专业的这个证到甚至未取得职能训练证书就像这个法务部卫福部教育部都有被点名那像我们国防部呢我们国防部有这样子的问题吗还是说我们会更加的严格更加的严谨"},{"start":12354.237,"end":12382.392,"text":"會取得這個資安專業證照的這個人數到目前為止的話我們這邊有這種狀況嗎還是說來當國防部的這個資安專職人員你就必須一定要有證照我目前是怎樣的一個狀況我們會鼓勵他們盡量去取得證照因為取得一個證照之後他的這個待遇會相對來講應該是會比較好所以我們會鼓勵他們盡量是鼓勵可是沒有強制要求是不是"},{"start":12384.334,"end":12402.475,"text":"因為他要能夠增加他自己所獲得的待遇他就必須要去維持住這樣的證照之外他還要能夠再提升他的證照的等級我想我們是以提供誘因的方式來讓他能夠維持住這樣的一個資安能力"},{"start":12403.43,"end":12426.82,"text":"OK 因為時間關係主席已經站起來了然後後續還有很多的這個問題我們之後再繼續討論好 以上謝謝剛剛委員指教的是有其實維護人才確實都是一個挑戰但我們應該要盡最大的努力那詳細的部分如果委員有需要推詢我們再跟委員再做溝通OK 好 謝謝部長好 以上謝謝好 謝謝羅美玲委員好 部長請回那接下來我們請謝龍介委員"},{"start":12440.077,"end":12440.557,"text":"主席請內政部長 劉部長"},{"start":12467.532,"end":12488.149,"text":"教育委員 你好部長 辛苦了法規這麼負面你們變成任性預算 任性國防 任性防災我知道你很辛苦 掩飾這個事情有人在社會有些聲音要有在國為的人 要有菩薩的心腸人家靠不住就要走 沒有必要"},{"start":12497.585,"end":12505.568,"text":"我請教你喔,在今年的風太來開市,你是裁縫中心的支援官。這是任務編組的。開設幾次?為今年開市開設幾次喔?應該是有四、五倍吧。我可能要詢問一下,不好意思。沒關係,頭一倍就是七月初五,我們台南丹納斯,頭一倍嘛。"},{"start":12524.127,"end":12536.116,"text":"再來就是7月2月放水災再來這個8月10日我們一級開始就是在放太陽流再來最好可能就是9月2、3嘛來 我請教你就是說你卡電話給錢來這邊補充你放完是倒一粒9月7、4還是9月7、3?9月7、39月7、3嘛"},{"start":12553.035,"end":12564.078,"text":"本身在這裡跟你傾聽 不行動是大行 這就是菩薩的心動你若沒有靠這種定位 今天的聖夢絕對是有夠淺蕩的啦但是你求這個規定中 你的中間 天下要三五大行大行公認 你說他 沒必要"},{"start":12575.799,"end":12584.165,"text":"你如果沒有靠這兩個電話 如果沒有代替這個團隊他最好送給你的資料這個模型是高的利益 才是高的利益利益高的利益嘛齁所以你在大大三十點鐘的時間你來做應變然後發達這個命令 坦白講這後面要求職檢調單位去查 因為這有卡到你們名"},{"start":12604.995,"end":12621.521,"text":"本省跟你說 你在九尾車山跟卡士頓電圍因為你是九尾二山跟升陸這個採訪中心之前那一半 你是在八尾十二升陸的所以表示你有去接納到一些專家跟你說的建議跟評估這本省在這裡送給你一個傾聽 不行動的台詞"},{"start":12628.959,"end":12639.465,"text":"如果沒有,這班的上門絕對不是這樣而已不管八千六百的鐵鐵多少就是已經把大量的人靠在這裡移出所以這是有很多人面向依然這本身對你的傾聽,來都要保重在這裏裁縫中心沒有設立的進程"},{"start":12654.352,"end":12664.623,"text":"這個N15的款式是不是 內政部長是不是要整層的款式都進補所以在這個中間 你的車頭就沒有像內政部長這樣當然 當然是跟你問 你說沒有這時的危險 本市也能接受"},{"start":12677.796,"end":12685.124,"text":"但是這種東西是隨時會爆發的東西隨時會有地雷火爆 陰暴的危險你沒有這樣做是你建議來政部長找台台的團隊 立法院的團隊那時候是來政部長他自己去找 你有參與嗎"},{"start":12697.762,"end":12711.976,"text":"一開始的人 我先跟委員報告七個月以來 我們成立以後我們有專家的會議 還有一個非常重要的跨部會的會議那在跨部會的會議裡面你們有做什麼 過去給裁判中心的幾位官要求的"},{"start":12713.123,"end":12737.193,"text":"做這個動作沒有啦那是勞保長 那時候紀委官的時候他覺得說這應該要找更多的專家來討論進展也有夠我告訴你 他的紀委官是8月12日成立一半之後還被解除之後第四次成立是高危二三的事情啦所以8月12日到他9月13日去打這通電話他有做這個會議記錄的關係拜託紀委中心的紀委官去做這個事情沒有啦我跟委員報告"},{"start":12743.26,"end":12767.911,"text":"我們要佩服的財力 當你到台灣以後那些老智慧官買了老寶座也一直關心這個議題所以我們也有在討論不是說因為你說沒有這次的危險當機時的思考北京本身也同意嘛清華萬棟到高清棟這個中間的特區過程中你們有用雷震波就是這個採訪中心的智慧官有提出這個建議嗎"},{"start":12772.213,"end":12782.183,"text":"我向委員報告 我們提出來也是由專家來評估的你請到一個專家楊交大的團隊他多久給你的報告他的評估報告從7月26號持續的一直在調整所以他的報告跟你說的就是沒有真實的危險"},{"start":12791.94,"end":12821.101,"text":"他們是針對整個... 啊來賓補貼到這裡的報告都要一天一天在一天的時間裡面去做那個決定 下那個命令今天我們坦白說 結論來說是救很多人啦不然就往生去這裡的人吃不完我不是在對救這些人啦不可以配合阿嬤嘛你這無關 如果不想擔責 下面是無關的領域啊嘛這1420個耶 今天阿姨沒有下那個命令啦有可能200個阿姨想喔"},{"start":12822.645,"end":12829.09,"text":"如果沒有下令 貼貼百姓六百的不管有令力貼貼 沒令力貼貼啦總是大家盡力去做啊 這樣不是這樣嗎?這樣不是這樣嗎?我跟委員報告 整個的防災過程中是中央 地方都要通力合作的然後各有他的權責我才要通力合作啦我現在在說人家有合作問題在你那裡漏屍淋漓 你還聽不聽"},{"start":12850.333,"end":12853.336,"text":"你那個詳細現在針對社員的問題喔你用書面詳細回答嘛你用書面回答嘛"},{"start":12874.704,"end":12901.012,"text":"這樣就表示未來這個事情有可能會發生在行政團隊裡面他有一個跨部會的聯繫匯報這個聯繫匯報裡面各部會都有參加你把聯繫匯報裡面你有提出這個建議我看書面提出來這個不是提出一個正式的建議是在討論的時候劉部長覺得說應該再找其他的專家來一起來那這個大家都可以同意的時間的關係你寫一個報告給社員了解好不好針對他的問題好不好 社員謝謝"},{"start":12904.687,"end":12927.762,"text":"好 接下來請葛如君委員好 謝謝主席有請國防部海巡署請國防部顧部長"},{"start":12929.608,"end":12942.487,"text":"海巡署是那個海巡署張署長各位在哪裡"},{"start":12948.222,"end":12961.543,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝署長本席過去不斷重申自動任性很重要不過過去我們看到中華電信還有相關行政院的憑證遭到Google撤銷不信任"},{"start":12962.464,"end":12983.529,"text":"以及對能夠補強頻寬的STARLINK疑神疑鬼最近一下又說不行 一下又說可以 後續也沒有下文最近還有海嵐很可能遭遇到被割斷的風險很可能我們台灣變成數位孤島想先請問一下國防部 在預算書第49頁的部分"},{"start":12985.669,"end":13001.661,"text":"有提到這個要構置執行光纖電纜搶修等等的這個設備相關的預算想請問這個部分是用來應對當海纜遭切斷時我們可能會遇到的人民沒有辦法上網我們軍隊也可能受到影響的情況嗎"},{"start":13003.688,"end":13024.924,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分應該是在主要是在光纖的部分在哪裡的部分不好意思就地面的光纖的部分好那是不是只支援國軍各站台間的管道還是也來影響到保護到我們人民的這個上網的一個狀態"},{"start":13026.891,"end":13051.322,"text":"我們應該著重的部分是在國軍本身的部分民間的部分的話應該是由民間的這個電信公司來部長我們不是說好了要全民國防嗎那打仗或者是極端狀況發生的時候只有國軍需要任性嗎我們變成其他人變數位孤島都沒有關係嗎我們應該是共同協作因為"},{"start":13052.344,"end":13071.39,"text":"是謝謝部長 軍方跟軍方的部分民間跟民間的部分我們一起會形成一個網狀的一個體系我只需要您這四個字啦這些預算不應該只是在國軍各站台間的管道布放以及保護好不好希望有共同協作的部分請您再仔細理清"},{"start":13073.131,"end":13095.53,"text":"謝謝那接下來在預算書第49頁的地方呢也有提到這個衛星通訊設備的租賃因為我們剛剛看其實沒有保護到一般民間的這個網路通訊的韌性我們就想說那如果有衛星的話可能好一點一開始還很高興看到說有這個衛星使用563億"},{"start":13099.454,"end":13108.047,"text":"結果是要用租的我想請問一下這個部分是要怎麼規劃有哪些限制預計什麼樣的評官有沒有規劃這個我們是不是請"},{"start":13111.798,"end":13133.691,"text":"委員好 我是通知室次長我們當初的規劃就是因為用租的既有的這個可以盡快的形成我們的戰力那如果要重新建置的話我們可能投資的成本我理解 租可以 我們沒有說不能租你要跟誰租 多少頻寬 什麼時間你是要跟OneWeb租 那頻寬夠嗎還是Starlink有考慮在內嗎"},{"start":13136.954,"end":13142.569,"text":"是另外一型的衛星那頻寬我們也討論過是可以滿足我們的需求"},{"start":13143.291,"end":13168.477,"text":"那未來這個衛星下鏈了之後可以軍民共用平寬多少 哪一家所以不是Sarlink也不是OneWeb所以另外的租賃要花563億啊那烏克蘭用的是哪一家您知道嗎563億不是全部用在這個衛星的租賃上面所以我們就想要問你衛星租賃要花多少錢你這裡底下寫得很清楚啊數量很高啊"},{"start":13172.162,"end":13184.544,"text":"那到底分開來是多少你衛星要花多少跟誰租我們完全沒有細節麻煩會後提供細節好嗎然後這個民間可以使用嗎民間可以使用嗎"},{"start":13185.866,"end":13206.483,"text":"我想我們主要在建構這個韌性的部分具有的這些相關的手段我們都會跟軍警消來可以互通然後我們在有任何災害的時候我們也可以將這些都能夠投入災區的防救我剛剛問題你們一個都沒有回答到有沒有包含SAR LINK"},{"start":13208.089,"end":13236.619,"text":"平寬多少你們列在563億里最重要的第一個衛星通訊備援網路租賃我現在問幾個問題都沒有答得出來你們到底錢要怎麼花啊那民間能不能用都沒有回答部長不好意思我很尊重您可是您剛剛都在念稿啊我要答到這三個答案你們誰可以告訴我第一有沒有SARlink第二平寬多少第三民間能不能用"},{"start":13238.156,"end":13250.909,"text":"我想第一個不是STARLINK第二個頻寬我們經過評估是夠我們的作戰防衛需求頻寬多少3G3G的頻寬衛星3G的頻寬你確定3G BPS是沒錯上傳還是下載下鏈"},{"start":13263.3,"end":13286.66,"text":"下鍊是3G的頻寬好這一點你麻煩確認一下我想這個基礎的設施也很重要現在有一些這個相關的這個資安人員有提到火箭發射基地的一些支通的設備是有非常多危害跟漏洞的麻煩清查確認一下那以及最後一個問題不好意思主席"},{"start":13288.175,"end":13304.648,"text":"請問一下海巡署你們這邊149億要來做一些相關的規劃我們想請問一下細節結果一切都說是機密我想請問一下這個細節能不能以密件提供"},{"start":13306.409,"end":13325.123,"text":"包委員可以我們會後再提供給委員好那我們會後來了解一下因為是149億不低那另外這個密件又很重要的話我們剛剛的這些預算或者149億有沒有算在美國對我們的國防預算的要求當中這個能不能算在我們的GDP的%裡面"},{"start":13328.479,"end":13348.408,"text":"用書面答覆好不好這個麻煩詳細的細節用書面答覆我們也希望我們的韌性不是只會編預算而已還是要非常仔細的來規劃才能讓我們民眾的每一分錢都用在對的地方真正提升韌性謝謝我們謝謝葛國軍委員署長請回接下來我們請陳秀寶委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":13365.061,"end":13368.822,"text":"謝主席 請教育部政部長好 請政部長委員好"},{"start":13387.935,"end":13392.037,"text":"部長午安在特別預算之前我這邊要先請教部長明年教育部的編列的預算少了908.7億這個引起許多教師以及許多教育團體的討論很關心我們受到才化法的影響中央各部會將大幅的經費都分到了地方政府"},{"start":13411.946,"end":13439.83,"text":"但是相關的業務該由誰負責如何分工仍然是很不明確的大問題那過往呢地方政府往往說經費不足許多教育經費呢都仰賴中央的補助例如像電費啊我們增加教師員額的經費或是非營利幼兒園的補助甚至是學校的修繕硬體修繕那以彰化縣為例呢通常也都是中央補助七成地方政府自行負擔三成這樣的分配比例"},{"start":13440.39,"end":13448.794,"text":"那明年的這個預算已經大幅從中央分到地方部長我想請教目前教育部有沒有跟地方政府來討論相關業務的分工"},{"start":13453.407,"end":13472.878,"text":"跟委員報告 整體在115年的預算跟今年的預算事實上實質是只有短少79億那為什麼委員會提到說900億是我們有教育部實質補助到地方的一般補助有配額是813億"},{"start":13475.259,"end":13484.331,"text":"所以在這一個部分整體來講教育部主管的地方政府的經費會配有955里面包含一般補助813億跟這一個"},{"start":13487.679,"end":13508.97,"text":"这一个计划型补助是142亿所以整体来讲我们当然因为这一个财务好以后部长 我这边请教您的是说你们教育部跟地方政府的分工有没有开始讨论了事实上我们一直都在讨论一直在讨论好 如果是在进行中也希望说"},{"start":13510.291,"end":13526.008,"text":"等你們討論出大家是有共識的時候呢教育部跟地方政府這個分工可以明確的告訴民眾讓大家一起可以來監督可以清楚明瞭地方政府有沒有落實從中央分配到的關於教育預算的這些經費的使用"},{"start":13526.93,"end":13543.642,"text":"謝謝委員提醒好那接下來呢我請教部長喔本次呢我們醫院國際情勢這個特別預算呢教育部有針對支持高教育產業合作共賠人才有編列了80億是用在補助大學的校園延攬及留任出聘"},{"start":13544.322,"end":13561.713,"text":"編制內的專任教師那主要是希望說可以在國際情勢的影響之下因為國際情勢造成人才的流動我們可以讓研究型的大學可以留下優秀的人才更可以吸引到國際優秀人才來台灣研究並且由各校院來規劃十年的這個攬才計畫"},{"start":13564.835,"end":13585.156,"text":"但是根據過往我們彈性薪資的方案執行內容在補助的人數方面其實新聘的人數是遞減另外針對獲得補助的這個級值來看副教授 助理教授等青壯世代的學者或是補助的比例還是比較低 能代提升"},{"start":13585.717,"end":13596.952,"text":"那監察院這邊也調查報告就說彈性薪資方案補助的對象是偏重在現職人員對國際人才延攬的成效其實是有待加強的喔那部長您知道這個狀況嗎"},{"start":13598.644,"end":13618.03,"text":"跟委員報告確實在過去因為在談信息裡面主要是看教授們的個人的學術研究表現以及教學還有對社會的一些貢獻那當然會升到教授某種程度他的研究能量確實會比年輕的學者助理教授副教授好一點"},{"start":13618.65,"end":13638.949,"text":"那也因為這樣 陳委員所關心高教師跟計時師也看到這一個現象所以我們現在各校的一個這個彈性薪資至少在副教授以下要有40%副總 現職人員跟比較資深的一定有他的優勢而且有他本身很優秀的地方我們是要留任"},{"start":13639.369,"end":13648.976,"text":"但是延攬新進的人才新聘的人才這一塊我們要怎麼來努力我希望說我在這邊提出這個提醒就是希望我們未來教育部應該審慎的評估各校提出的這個攬財計畫那其實關稅的衝擊影響的不只是產業面經濟面因為連帶會影響到其實我們學界的影響很大因為經濟的變動會使人才流動所以"},{"start":13662.705,"end":13690.046,"text":"希望說我們要確實的來督導相關的這些業務的執行我們才能夠達到鼓勵教師留任以及延攬的這個目標是 我想我們教育部所這一次的一個特別預算的200億裡面的100億本來就是完全就是跟委員的一個想法是一樣的我們因為產業的蓬勃發展產業的待遇確實也吸引了許多年輕的一個這個有高學位的這些人才"},{"start":13690.506,"end":13713.971,"text":"那我們怎麼樣能夠把產業的一個需求包含這些人才能夠為大學所用這是我們這一次裡面特別提出來的因為我們也跟委員報告委員也非常清楚有非常多研究型大學現在在理學院工學院事實上是聘不到老師不容易聘到甚至在文理社科也都有一樣的一些問題我們也希望能夠"},{"start":13714.891,"end":13735.042,"text":"因為這個預算我們是支持的但是如何能夠執行到位能夠真正發揮它的效益這個部分希望教育部這邊能夠再努力是 我們一定會把關也跟各大學也都有一定程度的一些交換意見怎麼去建立一個機制 攬財的一個機制跟留財的一個機制謝謝部長 謝謝陳秀馬委員的質詢接下來請羅廷維委員"},{"start":13746.581,"end":13750.873,"text":"謝主席有請財政部經濟部好 請財政部莊部長經濟部我們拱部長"},{"start":13760.768,"end":13781.004,"text":"好 首先請教一下財政部部長普發一萬總統公佈後我們何時可以發放相關的期程規劃如何國人對普發一萬是高度的重視我想這個政策呢此時還要再花1350萬的廣宣費你認為真的有必要性嗎"},{"start":13782.352,"end":13798.438,"text":"跟委員報告這個地方我們會在總統公佈後一個月內就可以執行發放的作業一個月內一個月內就一定可以發放一個月內一定可以發放完畢完畢不可能對不起 開始發放我用字更精準一點對 開始發放那你認為在這個時機點花1350萬廣宣費有必要嗎"},{"start":13804.26,"end":13827.133,"text":"廣宣費是有必要不能夠用政府的既有的宣傳資源去支應嗎現有的資源我們也會用比如說公共大眾運輸的一些車站都會用但是我希望你要盤點不要重複的支出啦我們一定會核實支出最重要的是普發疑問是政府因應美國提高關稅保護台灣出口產業及國民經濟韌性所啟動的即時紓困"},{"start":13829.594,"end":13839.608,"text":"所以立院很快排審也希望行政院的程序能夠加快財政部門能夠配合盡快讓民眾能夠領到好 謝謝是 謝謝委員第二個想請問一下經濟部部長"},{"start":13841.816,"end":13861.743,"text":"一個比台積電赴美投資更令國人震驚的事情那就是台灣主動要在美國建立科學園區科學園區是一個群聚效應的概念台積電赴美投資就算了上下游廠商會自己決定要不要去美"},{"start":13862.483,"end":13875.264,"text":"但是現在政府宣布要把台灣科學園區的一個模式在美國複製等於是整個台積電上下游都請過去美國這政策的考量核心是什麼可不可以請你說明一下"},{"start":13876.595,"end":13898.353,"text":"包委員因為我們產業的佈局就是秉持著總統的立足台灣佈局全球行銷全世界立足台灣是第一步所以就是說我們的能量跟最先進的技術都會留在台灣這個我都知道對 佈局全球的部分因為廠商他有在海外他設立據點的這樣的需求"},{"start":13899.13,"end":13915.859,"text":"那如果台積電因為它夠大所以它可以自己支撐整個上下游所以這個我們都知道但是有其他的很多的比較中型的或中小型的他們可能需要一個因為台灣園具的成功主要是Cluster聚落"},{"start":13916.659,"end":13942.999,"text":"所以在一個聚落裡面是比較成功的機會是比較大的當然我們相信整體搬到那邊台積電上下游整體搬過去整個科學園區的一個概念聚落化在美國一定成功率大大提升我們都知道立足台灣放眼全球可是台灣整體半導產業的人才已經有短缺上下游廠商研發團隊一併移動當然你說主要的最先進的在台灣"},{"start":13943.679,"end":13962.083,"text":"但是一併移動會不會導致本體產業的研發能量跟本土供應鏈的鬆動整體有沒有去做一個相關的評估我想打算幫美國複製竹科經驗到底換回什麼樣的有利條件政府應該更嚴謹有依據的去做完整的說明整個台灣未來半導體產業產業鏈 生態鏈我們的產業外移還有產業的擴張這個部分你覺得呢"},{"start":13968.644,"end":13984.057,"text":"包委員就是說第一個一定要廠商有這樣的意願他有需求做全球佈局那這時候台灣的政府才會來協助那他要落地在當地要能夠成功最主要要有一個cluster的形成"},{"start":13984.597,"end":13999.271,"text":"這是第一步 第二步他還要當地的地方政府就是國外的當地的地方政府他的facility要協助甚至於中央政府有一些法規上美國一定會協助嘛 我知道嘛但是我現在擔憂的還是整理的台灣半導體的產業鏈跟生態系在台灣的部分"},{"start":14002.594,"end":14025.434,"text":"我希望您能够再多重视我们不是说要阻挡但是在整个放眼全球的过程当中立足台湾这个点有没有做到完整的配套整个完整的先顾好台湾以台湾为主我们看到现在关税整体的样态以及也看到美国商务部长卢特尼克9月28接受媒体采访"},{"start":14026.114,"end":14053.615,"text":"說晶片是台灣的戲盾但是對美國造成威脅美國正在討論台灣晶片生產的比例承諾從現在的95%台灣生產到美國希望調整為五五分工這是他的說法但我要講的是美國一定是以自己的整個整體利益為主但是部長95%的晶片產能在台灣真的對美國構成相對應的威脅嗎您覺得有嗎"},{"start":14054.284,"end":14068.984,"text":"是 包委員事實上我也回答過外界這樣的詢問我的回答是說台灣的產業是在全世界供應鏈裡面一環台灣的產業生產越有效率對全世界的供應鏈是越有幫助對 越大的貢獻"},{"start":14069.384,"end":14090.44,"text":"民主國家台灣我們立足台灣放眼全球讓全球看到台灣怎麼會變成是美國的威脅我簡單講這個就是美方對於供應鏈要移轉製造的壓力的政治語言所以我希望部長在這邊藉此能夠向這個國人保證我們不會接受50加50"},{"start":14091.621,"end":14117.822,"text":"我們不會接受這樣子的一個所謂的談判我們更希望在一連串的貿易談判當中巨大集團部長應該知道吧對 我說巨大集團最重要的品牌之一就是捷安特美國以強迫勞動現在宣布要暫扣巨大在台灣生產的自行車零組件暫停蘇美相關產品還有可能進一步的沒收請問部長"},{"start":14118.582,"end":14134.139,"text":"我們有沒有相對應的措施我們掌握的狀況如何我們對於巨大這個部分的我們最重要本土的產業我們有沒有提出相對應的幫助美國有沒有提出相對應的證據這個部分我希望部長在這邊承諾你會關心此件"},{"start":14135.72,"end":14152.278,"text":"是一定會一定會因為我們從第一天開始跟巨大就有一個很好的他的法務部門跟他的律師也好都有跟我們非常好的最後十秒日本前首相石破茂對美國施壓他們是直接有勇敢的勇氣"},{"start":14153.559,"end":14162.085,"text":"但我們有沒有部長你一定要有也要告訴行政院我們現在的所有團隊應該要守護我們本土產業立足台灣是第一步好 謝謝謝謝羅廷輝委員針對羅委員後面的幾個問題巨大的問題再請部長詳細的跟委員來做答覆OK 好 謝謝接下來請張士綸委員來發言 謝謝"},{"start":14184.485,"end":14191.248,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家好我們有請內政部劉部長跟警政署張署長還有我們張署長"},{"start":14208.175,"end":14233.64,"text":"長委員好部長好 署長好這次有關於中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會民生國安任性特別預算這次總共政府編得滿大的預算可是我想要請教內政部的部分就是說第一次在編列預算的時候那時候還有台電的預算後來被刪掉預算的時候後來當時內政部編列只有這個"},{"start":14235.781,"end":14262.464,"text":"50億的這個老屋修繕的經費可是為什麼後來增加了62億相關的經費那這樣的經費編列下來是不是有點臨時有點趕鴨子上架那當時怎麼樣做這樣的評估因為我有拿到就是說你們這個有在9月11號相關的這個特別預算的一個編列的一個說明其實裡面很多"},{"start":14264.328,"end":14281.518,"text":"裝備的規格都還沒有訂定清楚以及還是連這個顧問團隊都還在整建當中還要等補助辦法核定以後顧問團才會來申請輔導等等這些問題我在想這裡面包含了很多的有關於公共建築"},{"start":14282.538,"end":14296.314,"text":"還有防災以及我們警政相關的買的這些預算是不是到現在我們還沒有統整好到底要編列什麼樣的買什麼樣的東西可是預算就已經先編列追加62.5億是不是可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":14297.775,"end":14322.351,"text":"報告委員我想您可能會非常了解第一個我們內政部的警政署在處理有關防恐危安或者是防災協作的部分我們是跟地方一起配合因為防災協作中心是每個村裡所以說所要配備的這些設備的部分我們需要一點時間去統整那麼統整出來之後就把它納進去請求行政院同意我們這樣的預算統整的內容我請警政署長跟你做一個很簡單的說明好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":14324.933,"end":14345.063,"text":"報告委員對於這個防恐這個部分我們對於這個維安特警的這些的一個裝備跟設備我們都已經做有做統整好了所以這個預算是根據統整的這個相關的設備跟數量這些相關的這個預估都已經做統整那至於就是比較大部分的就是用在關鍵基礎設施的這一個"},{"start":14347.984,"end":14372.278,"text":"這個相關的設備這個部分大概金額是比較多一點的那這個可以涵括大概八十幾處的全國的關鍵基於設施是要建置無人機的一個偵測跟反制的一個系統這是一個固定型的一個設備這個也是經過我們中山科學研究院的這個整個相關設備的估的相關的這一些的設備的價錢也都有做統整的"},{"start":14377.261,"end":14398.982,"text":"請教署長一下就有關於這些不管保一總隊增加了12億的採購防衛裝備跟直通環境等等以及關鍵基礎設施有21億採購無人機通訊設備跟防衛裝備等等這些東西我在講因為其實台灣我們在去年在審預算的時候其實有全社會防衛任性等等相關的預算"},{"start":14400.023,"end":14410.414,"text":"那這些預算跟你現在追加的這些特別預算你們怎麼去做一個大概整體的一個分配跟委員報告一下就是比如講像21億的這個關鍵基礎設施這個的一個設備是屬於目的事業主管機關這個對於駐地"},{"start":14418.543,"end":14429.936,"text":"這個駐地的一個整體的一個安全防護是一個基礎性的工作而且是在世界各國都有這樣的一個建制那我想就是在這個國土韌性在關鍵基礎設施的這個區塊來做這樣的一個"},{"start":14435.061,"end":14458.937,"text":"架構式的一個建制這個對未來是灰色地帶或者是臨時的一個狀況是有這完整的一個整備那這個部分我有特別到那個南港的這個國防展去看世界各國包括現在的俄烏戰爭或者是以色列這一些的一個設備人家早就已經建好了所以我們要在維繫我們游水電訊的這些關係的時候"},{"start":14462.625,"end":14486.63,"text":"目前我們最難防的就是無人機的這個入侵所以我們利用這個國土安全認證這個機會把這個完整的設施在這個關鍵室把它設置好這個應該是對我們的這個未來的這個穩定這一方面的一個安全維護是有非常重大的一個一個一個一個措施做跟委員報告那我想就是"},{"start":14488.45,"end":14499.205,"text":"各位希望委員能夠支持這樣的一個長治久安的一個工作而且是跟世界上的一個目前的這個接軌我想這個部分也給委員做一個補充的報告"},{"start":14500.789,"end":14517.616,"text":"謝謝署長當然我們不管寶一或是我們一些關鍵基礎設備要買預算我們都是支持只是我們說一開始當時第一時間沒有編列在特別預算是後來才加進來讓我覺得比較奇怪這個不一樣因為寶二的這個關鍵設備那個是在於個人的裝備"},{"start":14521.858,"end":14545.807,"text":"個人的裝備的部分我們就在這個我們的那個一般的預算裡面來做這個針對是駐地的駐地的固定的跟人的沒有關係最後署長是不是可以拜託因為我們辦公室有去說想要去索取相關你們到底要買什麼有沒有重複或者是買的這個數量規格現在目前都還沒有規格的部分我想因為有的預算沒夠規格就沒辦法現在就提出這個規格"},{"start":14549.008,"end":14573.166,"text":"沒有 最後還是要拜託署長一般來講編列預算應該是要規格那些都出來計劃都出來以後才能編列預算我們是有估我們是有估這一些相關設備的這個大概的這個單因為像比較大概就是中章科前面的有一個標準的模式你再到辦公室跟詹委員討論好不好好 那我們就是不是再跟委員在辦公室再做詳細的說明好 謝謝署長 謝謝部長謝謝詹委員 謝謝接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":14584.55,"end":14602.426,"text":"陳俊宇委員陳俊宇委員不在接下來我們請徐欣英委員謝謝主席本席有請勞動部長還有衛福部長"},{"start":14604.87,"end":14606.071,"text":"勞動部次長 副部長請假勞動部次長陳次長"},{"start":14614.435,"end":14634.521,"text":"還有衛福部是嗎徐委員衛福部 衛福部那個呂次長抱歉 洪部長在衛環兩位都次長那首先勞動部的部分昨天在院會施政總質詢的時候本席有特別問到院長那部長有特別講說我們這個150億支持安定就業的部分"},{"start":14641.723,"end":14660.558,"text":"有很多的这个课程除了补贴给劳工还有一些课程那我想请教有关相关的课程内容你们请的讲师的资格他教学内容的水准谁把关"},{"start":14661.509,"end":14681.355,"text":"跟委員報告 就是我們勞動部在這一次特別條例的邏輯上講重點啦 因為我只有五分鐘好 不好意思 相關的課程其實我們平常在勞工的充電訓練相應訓練本來就有一定的機制要求你就是用平常的師資不是 我們本來就有一定的機制要求包括那個辦訓的單位要符合我們TTQA時的一個辦訓的品質"},{"start":14683.496,"end":14710.703,"text":"然后他提供办讯的相关的课程内容都需要经过我们的同意所以师资上我们都会去做把关我也会这一次这150亿你有没有再把关还是你就是用以前的师资不是 我跟委员报告就是说大家一直都误会说我们跟平常的业务混在一起其实不是这样看应该这样说劳动部的劳动力发展署本来对于职业训练就业服务就是我们平常的核心工作"},{"start":14711.203,"end":14738.493,"text":"但是这一次没有 你就告诉我你师资的资格你怎么审查有没有审查有有审查我们会要求一定的师资好 你公开审查记录可否公开这个当然可以这个公开资讯都是可以的但是我要跟我们报告就是说我们其实相关的训练课程班级各方面都有很多教学内容的水准你怎么把关你上课有没有管考"},{"start":14739.313,"end":14749.24,"text":"譬如說他到客率 滿意度然後也有相關資料上課一定要有足夠的到訓率否則我們就不會付這個錢訓練之後我們當然還會做品質滿意度的相應的調查如果是我們的相應的職業訓練我們還會看訓後的就業率其實這邊都有一整套的機制在做處理之後再提供給我們辦公室可以嗎是 謝謝"},{"start":14766.853,"end":14779.907,"text":"接著本席想 次長您請留步因為後面還有共同的題目呂次長想請教因為部長在院會總質詢的時候特別講你們兩年內要訪視70萬個獨居老人對 沒錯"},{"start":14783.931,"end":14808.278,"text":"那一年要35萬你的人力在哪裡報告委員我們現在目前這個部分我非常感謝內政部的這個協助我們這個部分會跟內政部這邊我們會請村里長跟村里幹事他來協同我們一起去做這一個整個所以村里長 村里幹事不用培訓他們就自然知道你們的訪視只是去看一下人是不是報告委員因為老實說我們要進去訪視"},{"start":14809.958,"end":14816.606,"text":"我也知道現在目前大家也很怕那個會有詐騙所以一定要村里長所以有搭配內政部內政部這個村里長的部分但是我們這邊也會有專責的專責的就是這個訪視人員訪視人員進去所以你們盤點了嗎盤點了嗎大概要多少人一年35萬的獨居老人你要多少人力有盤點嗎這個部分"},{"start":14829.858,"end":14851.65,"text":"我們會跟內政部那邊我們會來跟他們還沒有盤點這個預算怎麼編出來的包委員 我們現在目前我就成如跟委員說就是說我們現在目前主要是村里長這邊我們會編那個就是說這個訪視費讓他們陪同所以是村里長搭配林長對 林長沒有 就村里長對 村里長還有村里幹事"},{"start":14853.187,"end":14881.628,"text":"所以你們是打算用這樣的方式對 沒錯就一定報告委員這一定要透過跟民政這邊的這一個大家共同合作這樣才能夠有一個整個通盤我跟委員報告了那你還有加強送餐關懷對 沒錯還送餐關懷那這個是經費再補貼嗎對 報告委員我們現在目前就是說那個整個獨居的這個長輩他現在盤出來我們會分輕 中 重那主要是重度的部分的話我們才需要有這個所謂的送餐服務"},{"start":14882.048,"end":14900.382,"text":"最後40秒我想請教兩位次長你們的媒體宣傳費這次編太多了吧勞動部編了4000萬衛福部編了3253萬4000元告訴我用在哪裡我跟委員報告第一件事情就是說特別預算是編到兩年"},{"start":14902.122,"end":14924.49,"text":"目前十月兩年三個月的時間那並不是今年三個月用在哪裡第二個部分是我們其實勞動部就既有的管道我們都是動用自己的同仁去做相應的部分再處理但是我們過往去下鄉去跟工會座談去跟僱主座談去跟勞工座談他們都覺得還是要加大相應的力道所以我們評估的結果在既有的"},{"start":14924.99,"end":14944.945,"text":"劳动部的官网 YouTube这些既有的管道其实没有办法接触到所有不同受影响的产业类别的劳工和受种所以我们才会去核实的去编列相应的经费真的没有很清楚你再书面给我我们给吕次长回答完好不好"},{"start":14945.345,"end":14974.476,"text":"非常简要因为我也知道独居长辈独居老人他的那个沟通管道还有沟通媒体跟我们一般人不太一样那他们很多其实事实上可能在家里所以我们需要透过很多比如像广播还有像电视等等这些方式来跟这些你不是都已经村里长配合了所以你们这个钱真的编了过度那个市长你详细用书面打过去详细用书面好好好感谢非常感谢许委员谢谢您的关心谢谢许委员好"},{"start":14975.636,"end":14994.131,"text":"接下來我們請黃建斌委員黃建斌委員不在接下來我們請林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在接下來請李博義委員"},{"start":14998.809,"end":15024.451,"text":"來有請內政部劉部長跟國土署吳署長劉部長 國土署吳署長抱歉 我用很快的時間要趕快來說明一下部長你慢慢走就好了我看到這個揮打決定在北市科的這個問題看到台北市政府問內政部內政部其實很快速的回應這些內容我想台灣不管是中央政府或者是地方政府"},{"start":15025.271,"end":15040.916,"text":"我們其實對於揮達座落台灣設立總部我們是高度表達支持的那我看到內政部是非常積極的在回應那我們這邊也表達肯定之外那我也想要舉高雄為例TSMC從高雄"},{"start":15041.816,"end":15069.767,"text":"土屋整治到第一片二奈米量产出来不到五年的时间我想在这边也对辉达喊话台湾的政府还是会有效率的尤其高雄市政府我们会极力的来促成如果北市科真的台北市政府跟新光这边的协调有问题的话高雄市很乐意来协助这边以上简单的跟内政部做这样的表达因为现在交通部门正在"},{"start":15070.627,"end":15085.896,"text":"也在質詢包含高雄市的捷運子線高雄航空城等等的議題我必須要趕快趕過去但是對於這個特別預算我必須要表達我們中央目前行政院"},{"start":15086.576,"end":15106.829,"text":"所提出來的包含內政部老宅的部分我這邊高度表達支持我的選區裡面希望可以套用到國貿社區相關的這些公共建設可以在這個老宅延壽方面可以真正的落實照顧到國貿社區另外對於國防部海巡署也就是海委會"},{"start":15107.509,"end":15135.255,"text":"相關的這些國防預算我們也希望給予高度的支持跟表高度的支持另外教育部對於投資下一代以及經濟部跟勞動部對於產業勞工相關的這些議題我們在這裡也表達高度的支持以上其他再請書面的書面報告書面質詢給予行政院再請行政院各部會予以回應謝謝好我們謝謝李博弈委員謝謝"},{"start":15138.561,"end":15144.325,"text":"好 簡單扼要好 接下來請邱志偉委員好 謝謝主席 先請經濟部龔部長好 請龔部長"},{"start":15162.434,"end":15184.648,"text":"第一個問題請教您就是這個台積電二奈米在那個男子產業園區預定設立五個廠所有的進度都在時序上面每一廠都會按照進度來進行還有稍微提前代表說市政府的效力跟決心只要有心"},{"start":15185.549,"end":15199.278,"text":"就會有成只要沒心什麼事情都不會成剛師傅就是有心有決斷力有執行力媒體頭版報導1.4奈米也可能在高雄您的訊息怎麼樣"},{"start":15201.066,"end":15227.942,"text":"那個可能是第六場喔我知道不過他們明天這樣寫1.4奈米不可能空穴來風那你一定是這個訊息中人那個可能還是有台積電來對外說明比較好還是有台積電對外說明比較好你了解的訊息跟媒體所揭露的方向有沒有一致我也是看媒體包裝雜誌有揭露說有第六場這個訊息是真的我做夢都會笑對"},{"start":15230.57,"end":15256.046,"text":"這個代表說先進製程在台灣的高雄成為最先進製程的製造中心是 現在兩奈米就已經在高雄量產所以我期待國務長再推一把勁如果有適當的場合再跟台積電推薦再請他們能夠把1.4奈米的第六廠也設在高雄"},{"start":15256.98,"end":15275.438,"text":"那高雄不見得要在南直在白埔也不錯你聽我意思嗎我知道好謝謝這個部長那接下來內政部劉部長休息一下劉部長休息請警政署署長張署長"},{"start":15279.093,"end":15287.655,"text":"這個國家的安全跟這個出入境的管制很重要所以您三位包括部長 包括兩位署長一個是這個官務的檢查"},{"start":15307.13,"end":15328.481,"text":"一個是行李安檢的檢查 國人出國第一個 安檢最重要 安檢必須要確實我們在出國旅行難得安心跟放心出國人數那麼多 如果安檢不確實 不到位留意形式或者安檢設備落後老舊"},{"start":15330.54,"end":15359.544,"text":"所以我看過這個安檢設備你不用比日韓日韓三線的城市都比台灣的安檢設備好太多了比起這個東南亞城市 東南亞國家我們還是第一 倒數第一這個安檢的設備怎麼會落後到這種程度都要人工去搬運甚至在看這個螢幕的航行人員還要去協助搬運人力不足是長期以來的問題不是你當署長才有的"},{"start":15360.748,"end":15370.941,"text":"所以你要跟部長反應你要跟院長反應 跟總統反應國軍的安檢很重要一有閃失整個飛機都會受到安全的影響"},{"start":15372.867,"end":15398.093,"text":"外國旅客也沒有信心 我看這國家悶悶的這樣一條線一個航警局的同仁在看monitor而且要看得確實 我希望要兢兢業業看得確實你們看到一半又起來 又幫忙搬那個行李這個行李是外面的保全公司如果行李看起來monitor有異議要打開行李檢查 誰檢查 那個署長"},{"start":15400.779,"end":15426.835,"text":"我們的警察 現狀是嗎現狀不是 現狀是保全公司在檢查還有碩國專業訓練嗎你要去現場看一下所有機場我都幫你巡視過了松山 桃一桃二跟小港安檢一定要很重視當作一回事很重要的事情這跟國家安全 國家安全是國家任性"},{"start":15428.393,"end":15442.68,"text":"如果外國官方看到 哇 這是安檢 台灣的安檢他們會怕怕的所以人員一定要補足 設備要更新我今天有提案你要有一個設備更新的時程全亞洲倒數第一名的安檢設備就是中華民國我很不客氣這樣講 你去現場看一下"},{"start":15454.526,"end":15481.053,"text":"人員人力不足 行政人員也吵到要死太吵他會打架 他要怎麼好好看所以說你有 你要把它當作一回事來看另外 關務署 旅客回國關務署的同仁 主席再給我一分鐘關務署的同仁 大批旅客出國我看到大概兩名在那邊 就是免報關稅的"},{"start":15483.575,"end":15486.937,"text":"非洲豬瘟固然把守很重要"},{"start":15502.625,"end":15527.378,"text":"但你要看看它的效益如何我只請教你這個問題我們國家花2億去請保險公司保險公司的預算比安檢的預算人員還多比方昨天兩條線配置20個人員他只不過把行李放過來再經過X光機這些保險公司的同仁還有這個專業去判斷哪些是違禁品嗎"},{"start":15529.286,"end":15551.693,"text":"其他的都協助行李搬運一天要少十倍 兩天要少二十倍有需要動用那麼多的國家經費嗎為了能力不縮減把這個能力再撥給警政署呢我不是不支持你們的政策但是我支持你們的政策你們把錢放在刀口上不要留意情勢 不要留意浪費部長你回應一下"},{"start":15555.342,"end":15571.998,"text":"我先跟委員說明一下就是有關於我們進口針對非洲豬瘟的這些檢查的部分然後在手提行李我們現在上次委員有提到就是不能完全用保全能源一定是我們有配注的能源沒有 你們房檢署我每次去沒有一個房檢署你調清室去看看"},{"start":15572.739,"end":15596.719,"text":"然後另外沒有一個防檢局人員在那邊全部都是我在那邊站著看了一分鐘沒有一個你們這個農業部的同仁這個部分我想我會再來去了解他們回報是說他們有正式的桃園分屬的獨島人員在那邊我跟你講我初也算是平板我很認真去看"},{"start":15598.686,"end":15627.804,"text":"沒有一個防警局人員全部都是這個大部分人力是在怎麼樣在協助搬運行李你何必那麼多人去協助搬運行李呢部長 這個政策確實值得講而且很多人可能反映為什麼還要再加安檢一次意義在哪裡 成效如果真的有成效每次都造成塞車如果有成效你跟我講你把數據提供給我沒有成效為什麼要你一年要花兩億邱委員 請大家把用書面詳細給你做報告好不好書面我都看過好幾次"},{"start":15629.522,"end":15644.373,"text":"在座好不好 你最近看的結果看得怎麼樣我想跟委員報告我也知道就是說在增加觀光人潮的時候它的確是一個關卡但是現在我們在國內的部分因為還是有除以"},{"start":15646.035,"end":15661.191,"text":"養豬 那有廚餘養豬它的風險就必須要去處理那你這個政策要執行到何時所以相對的就是我們現在在整個跨部會在討論的時候我們也希望說逐步的把這個廚餘禁養禁用廚餘我問你嘛 很簡單你的政策要執行到何時嘛"},{"start":15662.568,"end":15671.21,"text":"因為用廚餘養豬這個東西必須跟業者在溝通特別在桃園地區有很多廚餘養豬的部分另外這個張署長還有這個彭署長就你們執行面你們要求同仁 戰戰兢兢的時間超過太多了我們再10秒要戰戰兢兢的執行公務要讓旅客安心 讓國人安心"},{"start":15687.914,"end":15694.316,"text":"然後業務在執行的過程中一定要很認真邱委員你的問題署長都聽到了我們加強執行好不好謝謝邱志偉委員 謝謝接下來請王美惠委員"},{"start":15709.867,"end":15720.233,"text":"主席 我們現在內政部部長還有消防局長還有國土署署長消防署吧 消防署啦消署長 國土署務署長"},{"start":15732.631,"end":15741.72,"text":"法定人數不足因為可以知道有幾個案件我們的內政不白領起因為我覺得在這個單位聯席畢竟我們內政委員會的報告也好會有更重要的結果因為這個議程我們要趕緊來處理趕緊幫助"},{"start":15759.001,"end":15760.926,"text":"需要經費的地方當歸來這段期間很可憐"},{"start":15767.742,"end":15789.918,"text":"本學要跟你談到的就是說我們最近有臨部分中央還是地方我們有一個協助單位在今年的時候三月我們就有成立了在這個成立當中本學是要跟你說我們如果經過"},{"start":15791.758,"end":15801.109,"text":"台南和嘉義以前的風態到現在花蓮的災害在這個三個星期到現在北京你認為這個協助單位的中心"},{"start":15809.358,"end":15816.387,"text":"有對這次這兩三個地方的災害有什麼幫助嗎 補充你回答一下報告委員 我相信我們要做最大的併顧我們該做防災協作中心其實基本上本來就是鄉鎮公所還是區公所"},{"start":15827.981,"end":15832.847,"text":"但是我們防災協作中心是要加強防災韌性所以這邊特別醫生裡面我們的防災協作中心就是要加強每一個鄉鎮公所 區公所家他們所需要的設備譬如說緊急發電機或是相關的搶救的這些部分要給防災協作中心另外一個比較重要是我們想要"},{"start":15849.245,"end":15870.124,"text":"安排替代役如果有碰到天災的時候呢他們可以到現場來幫忙可以解決現在鄉鎮公所如果有碰到比較大型的天災的時候呢人力上派遣的不足啦這另外這是現役的替代役但是以後我們也會去幫忙可以做備役替代役所以人力的資源"},{"start":15870.785,"end":15883.576,"text":"或是物力的整備讓我們的防災協作中心未來可以更具有這個安全上的韌性的話是我們在這一次特別預算裡面所編列雖然不多可以加強的部分普通 你說到說到重點"},{"start":15887.517,"end":15891.201,"text":"不多啦 聽起來他算十五億啦聽起來你會覺得很多 但是你來分配一個單位十出頭盤啦 十出頭盤他買什麼啦"},{"start":15903.493,"end":15908.539,"text":"所以北京本身會跟你說出這裡的單位就是希望未來的時針我們可以更加充足的設備給他啦因為我感覺聽起來說五十五億覺得很多的 跟你分配"},{"start":15922.336,"end":15929.342,"text":"兩百七十倍的所在對啊 所以沒多少所以這個你未來 要再加強是 問得很清楚 醫生保庭本身要跟你說 老債的問題老債你有變一個五十億的五十億聽起來也覺得很多但我自己來說"},{"start":15943.857,"end":15948.803,"text":"還有六千多人是三十黨以上的老齋在這個過程當中 我覺得我們全台灣"},{"start":15956.684,"end":15963.066,"text":"在老齋裡面應該是很多的所以在這50億來分配的時候也會很少的所以我希望未來的時候改變局 改變因為我覺得應該要你先去審這件事再來在公寓的時候你們要未來看要怎麼改進在這樓以下如果沒有委員會的時候"},{"start":15985.011,"end":16008.894,"text":"要讓大家有權利的人都要回應所以都尋找不到中央的補助所以補償也好 輸償也好未來我們這一定要一路進展讓大家看到中央的政府的用心和對應的合作所以我們這個公寓"},{"start":16009.714,"end":16017.196,"text":"可以變心變好不要讓人覺得更堅固的公寓更不適合他的主觀這樣就不好了所以以上我希望我們的市長和部長這段時間非常辛苦但是辛苦的當中要去研議法令也是要去研議以上謝謝"},{"start":16037.216,"end":16047.641,"text":"好 謝謝王美惠委員 謝謝接下來請牛許 蔡議員抱歉 蔡委員請謝謝張偉那我們是不是有請教育部好 請教育部 鄭部長"},{"start":16067.657,"end":16069.099,"text":"委員好 部長好"},{"start":16079.98,"end":16084.644,"text":"部長我們這一次在處理這個特別預算那是針對所謂的關稅造成台灣的衝擊讓我們虛妄編列特別預算然後來強化我們台灣的競爭力那特別在教育部這邊抓了200億那這中間有包括維持大學的基本的一些"},{"start":16105.384,"end":16121.223,"text":"運作 減少說去學費的一個漲價那也有說另外也有針對大學的部分他們如何去吸引就是說大學要吸引更多的教師的人才那還有一個就是產官學合作那我想要請教因為"},{"start":16123.025,"end":16142.719,"text":"不管是吸引新的大學的人才教師的人才或者是產官學合作光是這樣的經費也高達一百億要分為八十跟二十億所以經費算是很多所以我想聽話補充你們具體上要怎麼去運用一百億"},{"start":16143.419,"end":16158.013,"text":"然後達到了我們所謂未來台灣的企業可以因為我們這一百億讓大學端有培育出更多的人才然後在不同的一個企業的應用上讓他們找到他們愛的人我想要聽聽布丁你要怎麼來操作"},{"start":16161.864,"end":16176.375,"text":"謝謝委員的關心確實我們現在其實以科技產業那麼的一個興盛我們不僅是大概台城青膠連台城青膠在許多理學院工學院的師師都是這一個拼不到的"},{"start":16176.815,"end":16187.841,"text":"那簡單來講我們會看到整個高等教育人才上的一些這一個世代的一個交替比如說在102年我們看到台灣系導計畫的時候當時進來的這些電子電機資訊的資工的這些的實施大概在"},{"start":16194.77,"end":16215.531,"text":"十年後至少會退六成我們擔心台灣在未來的產業的支撐力量擔心台灣的人才未來在許多有學生讀理學院 讀工學院但是我們可能沒有一個足夠好的施肢去培養人才包含支撐我們產業的一些力量就是人才不要給斷層所以老師也很重要"},{"start":16218.474,"end":16242.41,"text":"企業讓他們導入然後在這個學程的過程讓企業導入也重要所以你們是不是就會成立更多的類似一些學程然後讓企業界去一起來訓練學生這些學生一旦畢業後就可以馬上到這些企業去做就業產官學合作差不多都是這樣改良因為我們過去跟委員報告我們過去產業確實在產學合作比較少捐贈去成立一個講座我們希望透過"},{"start":16248.514,"end":16267.648,"text":"這一個產業為了他也需要人才那麼我們怎麼樣接種產業的一些許多他企業的社會責任包含這一個大學的人才的培育能夠產業也能夠兼正五千一億成立講座這個講座是成立一個基金部長 我想要說講座你覺得這樣的火候夠嗎"},{"start":16272.972,"end":16287.742,"text":"你還不如直接把它進入說我就是要開類似這樣企業所需要的一個學程 學分你直接把這樣把它開出來你單用一個講座的也許對學生來說他只是去聽課他未必是他會列為他學習的"},{"start":16288.943,"end":16305.775,"text":"人才培育包括尖端人才的延攬因為我們現在持平了大學的許多的能量用我們的公務預算持平要支撐一個比較高階的一些研究我們其實希望產業能夠也辦理一定的責任產業加入這個是要的"},{"start":16307.236,"end":16332.519,"text":"但是我更希望的是說因為現在這個產業跟我們過去傳統的過去幾年我們對於所謂我們台灣變成系的一個產業就是所謂晶圓的一個產業基本上我們都有一些概念可是現在的進步又不一樣了現在AI的時代跳的速度太快了所以可能有一些產業他們現在的一些技術已經在大學端這邊沒有跟上"},{"start":16333.5,"end":16355.485,"text":"如果要讓大學端這邊可以來跟上的話由企業他們直接進入大學去開說我們現在比方說現在有矽光紙的產業現在有所謂AI應用的產業現在有所謂無人機的材料的產業如果我們可以讓大學端跟企業做更好的結盟"},{"start":16356.565,"end":16364.319,"text":"我想這個讓未來培養出來的人都是企業想要的人跟委員報告委員的想法跟我們在這個產業合作事實上是有"},{"start":16365.151,"end":16392.019,"text":"亦許同工也就是說我們看到來自於醫學院的一個人才的model醫學院的教授在醫學院教書但是他臨床裡面他也看診他有兩分的一個薪水一個來自於所謂的醫院一個來自於所謂的大學我們也希望用這樣能夠讓企業的這些尖端人才也來跟大學合作我們有提一個類醫學院的這樣一個model部長我接下來可能會跟我們嘉義的幾家大學"},{"start":16392.759,"end":16409.274,"text":"可能會跟我們教育部這邊我們來計劃一些方案我覺得現在大學端他們也跟企業也有在談那這個談的希望說未來訓練出來的更多是屬於現在新的AI新的一些科技的一些人才"},{"start":16410.355,"end":16434.42,"text":"大學有希望做我希望我們教育部又有這個特別預算應該來支持這一塊讓他們要做的時候更加的有資源我想不僅尖端科技在人文社會各個領域裡面的人才我們都樂意在希望在這裡為台灣一個高教人才的勇氣的一個培育跟發展能夠有一個穩定的力量那我想這特別預算教育部的部分我覺得大家會支持就希望未來我們就要好好來做"},{"start":16436.58,"end":16442.582,"text":"這樣好不好謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡宇委員的諮詢接下來請劉許廷委員謝謝主席內政部國土署有請好劉部長還有吳署長委員好"},{"start":16464.839,"end":16480.764,"text":"吳總委辛苦了我們在討論特別預算其中跟內政部有關大家也都關心當然就是所謂的老宅延售政策這個政策方向上當然是一件好事但針對內容上本席有一些想法跟內政部這邊來做一下交換"},{"start":16481.924,"end":16503.675,"text":"這一次針對老宅延售的五十億基本上是針對三十年以上四到六樓也就是所謂的五樓公寓為主的這樣一個建築來進行整理跟補助對不對對還有地震要先做一個耐震補強等等那我想要請問劉部長你覺得預算執行的你有多大把握可以全部執行完畢"},{"start":16504.246,"end":16524.589,"text":"第一個我們設定的對象是500棟那500棟在未來的一兩年當中其實會比較容易達成是因為現在跟我們表達說有興趣的相當的多但是中間有些程序需要補足包括公益大廈管理條例裡面是不是適用的部分我們都會來做檢討現在大概本期有兩個問題第一個是這樣子就是說"},{"start":16525.512,"end":16554.481,"text":"尤其是五樓公寓的狀況因為它當然沒有管委會嘛那你還是要經過一個內部的意見整合這樣一個機制幾乎都要百分之百同意啦對啦因為你有管委會的時候你還可以說我去全員開個會我就處理完了對不對我多出意見等等但是那五樓公寓你也很難有所謂的相關的機制嘛你變成是等於族戶要拿同意書的概念啦那這樣的話其中有一兩層他可能出租找不到屋主或者是說他有反對意見對不對那會不會造成這個政策治安難行"},{"start":16555.369,"end":16583.439,"text":"會 所以我們現在已經針對這個有一些補充或是其他的辦法我是不是請署長跟你回應可以啊 署長你說明一下吧你怎麼樣去解決這個界面整合的問題感謝 因為首先來講就是說沒有管委會的部分我們會建議他從管理組織去組成就可以了就是說他不一定是供應大家所講的所以我們上次的修法裡面就把他從管委會再增加叫管理組織所以還要 你這是修法已經修法過了所以就鼓勵他們至少是一個管理組織"},{"start":16584.079,"end":16607.949,"text":"我要問的處理這件事情總要有個人嘛就是說你要有個人去找人然後去收集這些東西請問你現在老宅延壽計畫的50億裡面跟人相關的有哪些人比如說我搞都更對不對我至少還有一個叫都更規劃師都更規劃師實務上當然也遇到很大障礙因為公信力可能不夠等等這當然另外有時間再來做探討但你今天老宅延壽會有一樣的狀況嘛"},{"start":16608.869,"end":16630.044,"text":"都跟好歹有一個規劃師來穿梭行走效果都不見得好了那你現在這老宅延壽是誰要去處理這個事熱心的住戶嗎地方政府的專員嗎NGO嗎是什麼樣來處理呢對 是這樣因為我們之前就已經跟地方的建築師工會還有相關的這個都已經有開過他們都非常願意出來協助來處理這些事情"},{"start":16630.644,"end":16651.494,"text":"包含這一個地方要成立管委會組織我們接洽過這些工會他們都願意出來第二個我們有給地方政府相關的顧問團隊的經費這部分也是他們可以用來協助社區來做整合的一些我是覺得這樣子的講法還是太模糊了因為我們要聽到的是比如哪一個協會 哪一些人可以直接來處理這個事"},{"start":16652.674,"end":16669.977,"text":"我才能追蹤這個效果工會都有表達意願工會有表達意願但我覺得這不夠具體而且第二個你剛有講成立管理組織等等他也是需要行政作業流程跟時間嘛我們這個特別預算下去我當然希望看到效果嘛我別說下去沒有辦法很好執行或者是說中央確實有出錢可是地方上我受到的補助"},{"start":16670.638,"end":16697.855,"text":"但我不見得能夠妥善的去使用這個你要追蹤一下啦是 這也會補充第二種好不好 有關介面整合的部分你會有提供一份書面報告我們要了解狀況第二個 日本市要做個建議啦我希望你們在處理這個政策的時候既然要花五十億對不對 特別預算你既然都如果介面整合問題可以解決你老宅最後要延燒我要讓它可長可久你是不是在這整合的過程我拿了政府的錢做了部分的修繕之後我也要去考量未來嘛我們現在公寓大廈我們都希望有長期修繕計畫"},{"start":16698.976,"end":16714.174,"text":"那這些老宅延壽拿了政府補助的是不是也要有相關的人去輔導要把這相關的長期的修繕計畫來制定出來不能每次都是政府有資源有些有用到有些沒用到用完了就算了然後要等下一波資源這樣也不是辦法"},{"start":16714.835,"end":16736.337,"text":"既然政府要下資源我就希望要有常委效應所以我希望政府在執行這個預算的時候你要有一些條件也就是說我除了要整合完之後既然都整合了大家就開個會一起把長期休戰計畫也要把它納入也許變成一個指標或怎麼樣讓這筆錢下去之後它才能夠真正達成延壽的效果這樣你下這個錢才會值得第二點是本期的政策建議"},{"start":16737.137,"end":16746.026,"text":"這個我可以理解委員的用心就是說希望他們長期這個管理組織變成是一個長期可運作的成立管理組織會有修繕計畫就真的確定他後續有一些修繕的計畫或者是長期他會因此本來沒有再收管理費修繕費現在開始來運作來收你把這51當成一個開頭"},{"start":16755.615,"end":16769.308,"text":"但他建立好的模式之後他也許會轉正嘛變成一個長期執行的計畫但他一定要有相關效果嘛讓最後每一棟五樓公寓他都有相關的修正案計畫這才是真正的老宅延壽了好不好這希望國務組用點心內政部用點心好嗎好 謝謝好 辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員 謝謝好 接下來我們請吳麗華委員"},{"start":16785.885,"end":16787.472,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國防部長好 請顧部長"},{"start":16801.096,"end":16823.008,"text":"市委委員好部長好部長我們都知道戰爭現在並不是只有火力軍備的對抗其實網路的戰爭目前已經是一個趨勢那很多人也會這樣子想會覺得中共在這一方面的認知作戰看起來好像是更勝一籌"},{"start":16824.468,"end":16843.68,"text":"有時候感覺我們都被打趴了所以我們在這次的韌性預算特別條例有看到就是我們為了要發展這個電子站網路站這個防護徵收反制的能力特別有一個叫軍民資通作業環境韌性與設備效能提升計畫編列了563億我想我們一定要全力支持也一定會全力支持"},{"start":16853.686,"end":16873.2,"text":"但是設備跟人必須要相符才能夠相成那我們看到了一個數據就是在我們109年到113年資通電軍指揮部有一個勤務家級叫做網路戰勤務家級"},{"start":16874.201,"end":16889.312,"text":"那麼從它的人數跟它編列的一個金額我們可以看到過去預算的人數跟實資的人數我們可以看得到說好像是實資的人數會超過預算的人數"},{"start":16892.074,"end":16911.708,"text":"所以這幾年我們其實已經把預算人數變高預算金額也變高但是我們發現實質的人數實質的金額卻是在下降當中那我想請教一下部長您認為這樣的現象可能是什麼因素"},{"start":16914.003,"end":16938.036,"text":"跟委員報告我們也因為這樣子所以114年6月起我們也增加了這個網路站的一個佳績多少我們分成專精二級跟專精一級還有精英二級跟精英一級還有專家級有不同最高是專家級要到佳績是6萬好 那部長我請教您"},{"start":16939.096,"end":16957.041,"text":"去年就是今年114年度網路站的這個佳績我們來看一下專家級也就是這個6萬塊的他能夠領到的人數比例是2.66%菁英一級呢3萬元8.24%菁英二級1.5萬元13.56%專精一級1萬塊70.2%專精二級"},{"start":16966.564,"end":16992.45,"text":"5000元5%也就是說幾乎全部都集中在專精一級也就是加緊1萬塊所以那個6萬塊可以說看得到吃不到那麼按照這個取得的辦法呢要有9張的證照啊那部長你想想看如果我們在民間哦取得了這9張證照您想他的薪水應該會多少"},{"start":16995.049,"end":17003.224,"text":"就這一個有關區隔的這個部分之前在內部有很多討論我想是不是請鐘建軍來說明一下"},{"start":17006.348,"end":17033.126,"text":"委員你好我是東京軍參謀長跟您補充因為這個部分是有分一個等級那就剛成如那個委員所關切的這個專家級他是最高等級所以我們有預定他的資格譬如說他要什麼樣子的國地證照要幾張另外可能就有一些時機我們去評鑑所以說這樣子一個分起來預定他相關的所以我們算過了嘛就是最高等級的專家級你看才2%的人"},{"start":17036.928,"end":17053.054,"text":"就看得到吃不到啊那個六萬塊就掛在那邊所以這個最主要的原因其實我覺得是各行各業共通的問題啦像我們教育界其實這些年也很辛苦為什麼因為半導體AI這些產業"},{"start":17055.055,"end":17071.451,"text":"說一句實在話 他們的薪水很高所以連當老師從大學 高中 國中 國小你要去找到那些教科技的或者教工程的甚至是教自然領域的說一句實在話 人才很難找"},{"start":17072.051,"end":17097.979,"text":"所以像美國他們就是有透過約聘制去處理這個問題給予這些業界的人才到學校有一個彈性的職務目前我們教育部也有在引進當中如果說我們看國外的像以色列我們知道的就是他們是扶植這一些部隊也就是這些網路部隊"},{"start":17098.999,"end":17124.826,"text":"去創業然後讓他們未來在成為後備士兵的時候呢他們這些公司呢也能夠成為繼續的一個後備的軍力所以他們形成一個非常綿密的一個網路的後備軍力網那我想其實有很多很多的事情他山之石都可以拿來借鏡那我是覺得說"},{"start":17126.726,"end":17141.372,"text":"這樣的一個預算我們一定要支持也一定會支持因為太重要了但是空有這樣的一個設備預算人還是很重要的所以我們看到這樣的一個數據我們有點擔心這些沒有足夠的人才去發揮我們所編列的這些預算那部長您未來會怎麼樣看待這個問題"},{"start":17151.496,"end":17166.771,"text":"簡單兩點回應就是說第一個我們就是調整之後專家級的可資齡的比例現在已經調到前10%了也就是說我們希望盡量大家往這個有誘因的專家級的這個部分來邁進所以我們把它放寬比例到10%"},{"start":17168.032,"end":17194.761,"text":"那麼下面的關於菁英一級跟菁英二級我們也把它增加那個比例這是第一點第二點民間的這個人士在我們演習的期間我們事實上都會進行相關的一些動員那麼我們現在在動員的這個階段我們也會做精準動員來納入民間的這些屬於這個後備役的這個部分那這個部分也是我們正在進行中的事情"},{"start":17195.641,"end":17203.608,"text":"部長我們就是希望這個人才的招募部分希望能夠把它列為一個重要的政策能夠去來思考討論好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員部長請回接下來我們請陳冠廷委員"},{"start":17230.171,"end":17231.558,"text":"你好 我們請農業部部長好 請陳部長"},{"start":17244.71,"end":17268.499,"text":"我也好 部長好部長 日前賴總統有宣布說未來4年的國內業者可能會採購將近100億的美國農產品這一次的清單雖然避開了稻米但是家裡的農民都在問我說下一次會不會擴大採購稻米雞和豬肉這個部分"},{"start":17270.059,"end":17297.626,"text":"我們今天審查的190億的農業認証運算有沒有做最快的準備跟打算我跟委員說明這兩個是完全不一樣的事情我們這次赴美採購100億美金最主要是它是一個每兩年一度的例行性的業者聯合採購已經辦了15次最主要的品項是黃豆 玉米 小麥跟牛肉"},{"start":17298.786,"end":17324.946,"text":"黃豆 玉米 小麥這個部分我們國內的自給率就非常非常的低舉個例子 黃豆的自給率只有0.2然後玉米的自給率只有2.5左右牛肉的自給率也不過4.6所以這些產品都是國內需要然後我們進來以後能夠有效的反而會讓我們的生產成本降低"},{"start":17326.01,"end":17350.895,"text":"所以等於是說我們儘管是採買100億美元的農產品其實是在做互補性的因為我們剛好是最缺這一部分的農產品也是因為我們這個部分也是一直以來都是很依賴的那既然由美國能夠提供的話那這樣子的購買其實對我的農業對我國的農業是沒有什麼太大衝擊甚至是對我們的包含一些飼料是降低它的費用都有幫助對我們反而是有利的對飼料的成本降低是有利的"},{"start":17351.873,"end":17376.278,"text":"想請教一下 部長接下來有很多輪的談判農業部有沒有建立包含敏感的產品的清單我為什麼一直在講稻米 雞肉 豬肉這一些是因為我們包含嘉峪 雲嘉南 高高坪地區這一些都是我們重要的農民生產的這些作物跟肉品所以針對這一些優先的必須要保護的項目我不知道部長有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":17377.389,"end":17406.005,"text":"最終的決策層級會是農業部還是經貿辦還是國安會我非常了解大家的一個擔心跟疑慮但是現在因為談判還在談判的過程中我沒有辦法去做一些更詳細的說明但是農業部的立場就是一定會確保糧食安全然後同時讓我們這個產業能夠持續的永續發展更重要的是我們會確保農民的權益我們是用這三個基本的前提之下持續的在跟美國在做一個溝通"},{"start":17406.96,"end":17434.452,"text":"部長你剛才說確保農民的權益有一些政府必須要設定的不可退讓的紅線包含農業部也要設定一些不可退讓的紅線讓這一些談判單位也要清楚的知道我今天不斷重複稻米跟我們的肉品這個部分我還是希望說一定要讓負責談判的小組能夠知道說這是我們中南部非常重視的項目不可以輕易的來去放棄這個紅線"},{"start":17436.005,"end":17449.333,"text":"我必須要再提到部長你這190億的農業任性的預算裡面有提到獎勵花 種苗 毛豆 國產茶葉等等鬼頭魚 無國魚來去拓展美國高端外銷市場所需經費約45億元"},{"start":17451.474,"end":17475.564,"text":"部長我們之所以要做這些事情我們剛剛提到在採購100億美元的美國農產品就是因為我們對美國有高度的順差為了降低順差的幅度所以我們才需要談判那我們同時要降低順差同時又要推銷到美國的產品在這個預算的項目裡特別標明美國市場這樣不是很矛盾嗎我的建議是不是說獎勵業者推展國際高端外銷市場"},{"start":17476.044,"end":17493.623,"text":"不應該只去這個拘束於在美國市場而已因為這就跟我們的相關的政策是有所矛盾非常同意委員的講法那這個部分我想可能是我們同仁在寫的時候因為我們在政策的內容除了美國市場其實更重要的是多元的高端市場"},{"start":17494.504,"end":17502.99,"text":"所以這個45億我們未來不只是全部在美國有更多的高端市長我們也會一起來努力所以說科目就不必只寫美國因為你的科目就寫美國其實我們的目標是多方的市場的話"},{"start":17510.354,"end":17538.804,"text":"也同時我們的政策目的就是某種程度就是美方就是希望我們來降低順差我們還做這件事情的話感覺是在政策上面的互相抵消第一個我們剛剛講到的黃豆 小麥 大豆我們我國的自產率本來就低的東西這當然是有互補的這個我想也透過很多機會要讓農民朋友們知道但是我剛剛提到的稻米還有豬跟雞這個不斷的還是我要一再的強調再來剛才提到糧食安全的準備"},{"start":17539.881,"end":17552.97,"text":"那部長我看到我們現在糧食的倉儲地點是不是過於集中會不會讓緊急狀態下的供應韌性對於這個分散式的倉儲或者是異地備援的規劃這個目前的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":17553.939,"end":17570.661,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在的全國的這些最主要的糧倉的部分其實是分布在我們所有的縣市每個縣市都有17個縣市最主要17個縣市因為都會區可能是用臨近的每個縣市我們都有他們相關的安全的一些備援"},{"start":17571.121,"end":17584.22,"text":"那也很抱歉因為這些地點跟實際的東西我現在沒辦法說我們只是要提醒我們有分散我們是有考慮到分散那未來也會針對這些糧倉做一些維修跟一些用冷藏可以讓它儲存更久的一個方式來處理"},{"start":17585.103,"end":17602.479,"text":"除了分散之外另外一個還要提點就是當然是依照人口跟偏遠地區都必須要有相關的配套的做法特別是也是要鼓勵農業部希望說各個不管是藉由宣傳還是用其他的方式還是要建議在偏遠地區的民眾假設在"},{"start":17603.3,"end":17627.416,"text":"完全斷元因為現在災害是頻繁的在狀況之下他們至少可以再維持在家中的糧食飲水電源設備至少要10天以上這個部分我想農業部也必須要再加傳推廣因為特別是在偏遠山區的我們可能比方說我們哈里山翻入竹崎山區的話第一時間道路都會中斷等到道路重新清通之後再把相關的運輸品穿過去的話可能會太遲所以"},{"start":17628.517,"end":17636.659,"text":"藉由這個機會在國會還是希望大家能夠準備十天的以上的糧食跟飲水 謝謝好 謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來我們請張雅玲委員謝謝主席我們有請勞動部次長和衛福部次長"},{"start":17659.486,"end":17660.026,"text":"來請次長陳次長還有呂次長張委員好"},{"start":17671.445,"end":17694.237,"text":"好我们先请教那个劳动部就是说我在之前在第三会期的时候呢我其实曾经有询问过劳动部有关于女性劳产率的问题希望可以提出精进方案因为目前我们人力短缺可是我们的女性劳产率只有52%那后来呢就是说我们其实也有发现女性其实呢在就业的意愿其实是蛮高的可是因为她有很多"},{"start":17694.677,"end":17717.917,"text":"不管是育儿或是离开职场太久之后他有些技能上面可能没有办法符合实在的需求所以后来劳动部有提供给我们一个精进作为就是说我们会简化工时调整奖励申请的方式及流程达到实职雇佣及协商工时调整之效益但是我们也发现就是说在这113年其实我们在弹性工时的调整奖励上面的职缺只有3631个"},{"start":17720.539,"end":17743.491,"text":"推介就業只有844個換算成女性勞參率大概也只有0.05%同時我們也詢問過了一些企業其實他們也提到了有三個問題對於他們來說其實是希望可以再調整的第一個就是說申請文件繁複雖然說誰到誰選可是只要有什麼狀況的話補件他就要來回奔波"},{"start":17744.611,"end":17769.762,"text":"第二个就是不确定性跟风险成本也就是说它补助被核定的时候它虽然被核定可是它会延后才进来所以就变成它要先垫付一些成本例如工资行政支出等等的还有企业成本的考量就是说今天金额奖励的金额其实是偏低的补助的时间可能最长也只有12个月所以对于部分的企业来说其实是很难覆盖它的行政成本"},{"start":17770.582,"end":17785.22,"text":"那同时我想问一下就是说针对这三点我们是不是有可能改善那同时是不是有可能在申请文件这件事情改成是线上申请的方式减少企业周车劳顿的时间"},{"start":17786.355,"end":17806.609,"text":"謝謝委員 這當然是我們應該要做的事如何方便我們的婦女朋友可以工作與生活平衡 彈性暈暈流停或讓她盡量保持在職場上 這是我們勞動部當委之事委員所提到這些事情 我們都目前正在檢討當中我們會朝方便婦女朋友的申請還有友善化的方向來檢討改進"},{"start":17808.01,"end":17824.315,"text":"可是我想現在還有企業面臨到的一些問題啦剛剛講其實是企業面臨到的問題那企業的部分像線上申請這個部分是可行的嗎我們其實推動相關的申請友善化本來就很多線上申請的作為那這邊企業大概"},{"start":17826.996,"end":17846.575,"text":"大中型的企業是沒有問題的那中小型的企業這邊有賴於我們透過相應的協助讓他知道便利的申請方式我相信其實未來隨著AI時代的來臨數位化的落差會逐漸去彌平好 那我想因為時間很有限我想我先到下一個部分就是說"},{"start":17848.297,"end":17870.271,"text":"我们其实现在我们不管是在女性来说我们看到非常多的妈妈她们都希望有弹性共识这件事情那我们也发现从数据上面数据上面其实我们的女性在疫情之后她完全在家上班的这个数字其实是大幅提升的跟过去相比来说所以"},{"start":17870.791,"end":17885.545,"text":"我們知道說這的確是有一些挑戰但是我想這個還是蠻需要去落實這個性工法第19條的一個規範提供這個彈性工時我想請次長是不是可以我們可不可以加速來讓這件事情來進行這樣子"},{"start":17886.265,"end":17910.922,"text":"我們未來會針對女性的老公朋友如何在家工作或者是協商休息的時間等等或以至於育兒照顧長者需求相應的部分我們都會來一併的來檢討讓它彈性化可以增加女性朋友的一個工作上的好 那我想這個是不是可以提出一個方案給我們好不好好 那抱歉我趕快謝謝我們先請衛福部衛福部"},{"start":17915.384,"end":17942.596,"text":"張委員你好市長好就是說其實我們之前看到那個衛福部提供的資料就是說我們有個強化關懷老人服務的計畫是所以我們去看如果以我們計畫關懷仿生人數對照內政部的設計資料來說其實覆蓋率只有六分之一其實是非常非常低的那我們這一次呢在除了我們看到說未來一定會成長越老人一定是越來越多沒錯那我們現在有幾個問題第一個就是說我們涉及到"},{"start":17943.536,"end":17967.098,"text":"我們有許多的獨居長者其實是沒有被納入服務網路的原因就有可能是因為地方沒有去積極的盤點整合不同單位的資料所以衛福部這邊是不是可以來去督導我們地方政府強化的去整合我們不管是戶政或是警政以及我們社政的相關系統來確保我們的確有掌握到所有的獨老的數字這部分是可以的嗎"},{"start":17968.099,"end":17985.01,"text":"包括委員我們確實就正照委員您剛所說的我們會朝這個方向那我也有幾個啦有幾個數字 第一個內政部他現在所說的這個基本上基本上只是就是說那個戶數基本上只是那個所謂的住宅還有那個所謂戶數但我們現在目前必須要有實際房市"},{"start":17986.391,"end":17997.693,"text":"之後我們來知道他真正的需求所以就是說獨老裡面其實老實說獨老也有自願性獨老跟非自願性那我們現在目前是非自願性裡面有福利需求的我們現在目前要target在這個群體"},{"start":17999.296,"end":18016.396,"text":"所以你們現在有非自願讀老的數字是已經都算出來了嗎還是還沒有正因為我們現在就是不清楚所以我們要經過這兩年三個月我們跟內政部我們非常感謝內政部這邊的這一個幫忙我們會透過民政系統那邊來做一個全國性的一個普查"},{"start":18017.337,"end":18032.61,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在目前全國我們現在目前的65歲以上總共有468萬佔總人口大概19.67但是按照我們現在目前估出來真正有需要的應該是9%所以總共我們是抓70萬"},{"start":18034.291,"end":18063.213,"text":"我们是这样做这样的估算那分两年嘛一年35 35 35这样来做这个估算好 我想确定一件事情就好就是说因为现在看起来你们已经有掌握一个大概的数字所以现在我们看起来只有覆盖了一部分非常非常少的一部分所以我们现在是不是有个具体的规划时程大概什么时候可以完成这样子的一个覆盖率呢我们有这样的计划吗就诚如我们就是在这次任性计划里面我们提出一个整个两年两年期的计划两年期的计划会完成覆盖"},{"start":18063.773,"end":18081.568,"text":"對 沒錯就是能夠達到我們剛剛說的預估值70萬從現在目前有照顧的5萬多大幅成長到70萬這樣所以在兩年之後我們就會覆蓋了是的 沒錯好 了解 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝張雅琳委員市長請回接下來我們請林月琴委員"},{"start":18100.834,"end":18104.516,"text":"主席麻煩我們財政部的莊部長還有勞動部的常務次長陳次長來 勞動部陳次長"},{"start":18121.135,"end":18133.462,"text":"首先我要肯定行政團隊這次在法制面上讓普發現金可以合法又合規的發放當然院長也承諾只要立法院三讀通過一個月就能夠發放這也是值得肯定的"},{"start":18134.162,"end":18155.828,"text":"不過這時間真的非常的趕非常緊所以我還是要提醒這次普發獻金除了發放效率外更要重視詐騙的防範以及攝服對象能不能夠順利領取甚至要有人來協助這一直是我很關心的族群回顧2023年那次普發獻金常見的詐騙手法像是假網站還有冒用個資釣魚簡訊等等"},{"start":18158.909,"end":18178.329,"text":"這次補發一萬元還沒開跑就已經有詐騙的案例出現了所以想問部長這邊除了加強宣導以外政府到底有沒有更積極的防範措施特別是在這次應該會有更多民眾選線上的登錄來領取所以有沒有事先防堵的做法"},{"start":18179.51,"end":18207.146,"text":"是的有的第一個我們一定要告訴正確的資訊告訴民眾在什麼樣情況下在哪一個網站登記要注意那另外呢其實也跟委員報告這個政府一直開始都已經對於打詐的重視這一個月不到一個月的時間我們已經成功的下架了有48件的詐騙廣告還有12個社群的帳號還有三組的詐網的停止解析那這個部分目前刑事警察局都在專責的溯源偵辦當中"},{"start":18208.466,"end":18221.292,"text":"這個部分我們要告訴大家就是說不要有這種投機的心理因為政府一定會加強追緝以及有相關的機制來追查的好 謝謝部長那部長先請回我接下來問勞動的議題"},{"start":18223.513,"end":18248.731,"text":"那陈上你好就根据我们的统计呢青少年15到24岁的失业率长期都维持大概在11%左右是整体失业率的三倍以上所以我很肯定这次政府编列30亿投入在加强青年失业训练奖励跟资源计划这是非常必要性的可是我想特别请教是这个政策里面到底我们包含"},{"start":18249.491,"end":18271.486,"text":"因為我們15歲就可以工作了15歲到17歲的未成年 青少年也就是還沒有成年的那一群有沒有納入在就業協助或職愛輔導我跟委員報告就是勞動部在就業服務職業訓練各種的對象尤其是弱勢族群 青少年也都是在我們平常例行的核心業務本來就有在做"},{"start":18272.046,"end":18287.64,"text":"那關於15到17歲的未成年人其實洪部長當時為了建立相關網絡也跟其他部會開過協作會議還有地方政府開過協作會議我們也去了一些據點也謝謝委員參與也提供我們很多的意見那我們勞動部在針對這一波特別"},{"start":18288.46,"end":18303.38,"text":"預算主要是在處理因應美國對等關稅還有國際情勢相應的影響所需要在一般的業務以外額外再去做相應處理的時候才會動用到特別預算但是很多的基本的支持在我們的本來的"},{"start":18304.301,"end":18323.039,"text":"很長的業務裡面就有包括所以委員所關心的這部分我們會再仔細盤點相應的政策需求協助這15到17歲的人因為我上個會期就跟勞動部一起檢視過弱勢境遇未成年的勞動權益跟保障的確聯合國的文獻也呈現說弱勢的未成年人"},{"start":18323.96,"end":18345.558,"text":"往往比同年齡的人更早踏入職場如果在前階段的兩三年協助他們給他們更多的穩定的一個職癌的協助跟引導的話對於他們未來的五年的就職事實上是有非常大的一個幫助所以這次在這個預算裡邊的話我希望你能夠去理解"},{"start":18346.218,"end":18360.894,"text":"因為執行方案是需要經費的所以這些經費的支持是非常迫切也是非常緊急的一個問題尤其我過去在民間服務的經驗我們發現少年在就業族群裡邊大概是有六成他事實上是沒有勞保的"},{"start":18361.594,"end":18383.211,"text":"這代表他們的工作處境事實上是不穩定風險又高更讓人家擔心的是從少數有勞保資料的部分來看的話年齡越小的反而越常出現在高風險的職場像是工地或者是營造製造業的比例竟然事實上是15歲的比16到17歲的還要高那所以請問像次長你怎麼去理解這樣的現象"},{"start":18385.673,"end":18401.64,"text":"應該這樣跟委員報告就15到17歲這一群青少年朋友其實也剛好在求學就業還有相應的相關的階段那其實行政院整體的在社會安全網裡面對最近都有關照所以我想問一下你們有沒有對策我們逃犯部隊如何就業自立"},{"start":18402.1,"end":18428.606,"text":"提供他好的經濟生活的支持這部分是我們要去做理解的那有關於這青少年朋友他其實在工作場域和環境有一定的限制我們不希望他從事太多危險性高風險的行業所以這部分包括他的經濟來源支持還有如何協助他適材適性進到適合的工作場域這部分我們會來努力好謝謝次長謝謝好謝謝林瑞琴委員好"},{"start":18433.16,"end":18439.988,"text":"接下來請廖偉祥委員廖偉祥委員廖偉祥委員不在接下來請盧憲宜委員謝謝主席主席有請內政部長請劉部長內政部"},{"start":18466.847,"end":18482.063,"text":"部長好 華佳沙颱風除了造成我們馬太安的災情以外不知道部長有沒有關心我們南橫也就是大概一百六十幾K 一直到兩百K我們海端鄉的這個路段的部分有沒有聽到一些消息"},{"start":18483.306,"end":18504.427,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們主持的畫家沙颱風包括花蓮艷澀湖的部分其實在台東都有提高警戒我知道說到最後兩三天的時候仍然有些路段的部分因為段路的部分會造成交通上面的處理我們後來就請交通部要協助台東縣政府"},{"start":18505.127,"end":18525.984,"text":"謝謝部長因為這次的我們國際強化經濟社會及這個任性特別預算有編了大概15.85億用在基層防災維生設備建置的部分那我就聽到一些地方的民意代表或者是消防隊他們就跟我說能不能請委員幫忙來"},{"start":18527.705,"end":18554.492,"text":"看看有沒有發電機或者是可攜帶性的比如說電極器或者是生命監測器結果詢問了以後其實沒有辦法來補助這些設備我就想說如果這次有編列到這些預算的話這是屬於維生基礎的話是不是可以把它盤點全國比如說偏遠地區比如說海端 阿里山 霧台 納瑪夏這些比較容易交通中斷的地方"},{"start":18556.653,"end":18570.621,"text":"讓他們知道讓盤點說他們地區需要的是什麼那我就大概看了一下我們這次有一些防災的這些步驟讓一些我們部落的人有些想法跟部長報告他說在"},{"start":18572.222,"end":18590.556,"text":"在那發生的當下真正發揮的功能是在我們的部落層級可是很多消息是從村里長這邊所以反而忽略了我們部落的一些年齡階層教會 青年會這些可以第一時間去動員的這些組織所以我想說以後在災害防救"},{"start":18592.757,"end":18618.805,"text":"這邊希望能夠藉助這些組織的力量來導入我們一些我們基本上我們村裡的階層因為沒有他們的指導跟沒有他們的參與的話其實在部落裡面很難去推動所謂的防災的一個動作而且會讓他們覺得說沒有被重視像這次我們看到我們馬太安是他們有提出了個五大訴求"},{"start":18619.565,"end":18639.901,"text":"那我也希望說這個基層防災這個維生設備能夠把他們這個五大訴求能夠匡列在那裡面然後希望部長能夠來研議這些我們的軟硬體設備啊或者是區域物資的整備還有一些設備選購的部分都能夠去聽取他們的意見好嗎 部長"},{"start":18641.683,"end":18655.891,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想分成兩個層面第一個我們現在在全台灣278個地方推動所謂的防災協作中心當然這是以鄉鎮公所或者是區公所為主那我們增加替代役的人力這是一個"},{"start":18656.491,"end":18674.818,"text":"然後在這個防災協作中心有必要的包括像緊急發電設備等等都會編列進去那您現在所提到的就是比較有可能造成抑制災或者是孤島部落的這個原住民的區域的地方我們已經跟原民會來商量就是我們要不要成立這個原住民的特收隊"},{"start":18675.938,"end":18693.843,"text":"這個原住民的特殊部隊會根據每個地方或是不同的部落裡面我們要做特訓如果你沒有做特訓的話自己沒辦法救自己要救別人其實反而會造成更多的災害所以如果有這樣子的一個特殊部隊要成立的時候第一個它會在消防署經過特殊訓練之後它必須要的裝備或是必須要的設備是什麼然後要怎麼樣協助"},{"start":18698.684,"end":18720.874,"text":"到如果發生大型天災不管是地震或者是其他的大水來的時候才能夠真正做好比較防災的部分這是一個第二個就是所謂的韌性社區這次在馬太安溪裡面堰塞湖的部落有一位王子安村長他就是112年了我們消防署有認證過的這個防災韌性社區的非常好的代表"},{"start":18721.374,"end":18739.503,"text":"所以他在疏散他的災民的時候他是用阿美族的族語幫忙做疏散而且平常也都有開會這樣子的一個方式如果大部分在部落的領袖或者是在村里長願意接受的話部落的領袖我們會透過園民會的系統來協助如果是村里的階層的話我們透過原來的鄉鎮區公所來共同協助我想用這樣的雙管齊下的方式來"},{"start":18747.127,"end":18768.515,"text":"來協助我們在這個孤島部落裡面或者是原住民區域比較多的聚落可以達成真正做到防災的效果好 謝謝部長還有就是說再提醒就是也要盤點一些常常會缺水的地方雖然有些地方是有減益自來水或者是說沒有自來水的地區可是如果你可以預期說它沒有水的時候可以先把它的一些"},{"start":18769.255,"end":18783.644,"text":"安全存量的用水放到部落那邊去不然我們這次光捐贈那個有些部落沒有水的可以捐贈到一千多箱的水然後我是覺得說到最後如果都來找我們的話我們真的是沒有辦法一定要請我們內政部來統籌這樣的一個"},{"start":18787.347,"end":18801.873,"text":"報告委員大概有兩個方向如果他是平常的生活裡面缺水的話呢大致上是有園民會或是經濟部來協助但是如果你說到就是譬如說在天災期間收容安置單位裡面呢通常我們都會建議他有一星期以上的存水"},{"start":18802.313,"end":18827.025,"text":"但是這次可能收容安置所裡面人口暴增因為有大量要收容這些部分所以會產生缺水的狀況但是後續有些其他的緊急的設備就會來協助那這個部分包括在天災的時候需要有緊急的一個水的設備的處理這是一個過濾器的設備包括慈濟基金會也會有我們會綁下它這樣的方式然後配備到災區裡面供大家來用"},{"start":18828.166,"end":18852.982,"text":"好 謝謝部長 那我就再提醒一次希望就在的時候要有部落思維 謝謝對 園民會會跟我們一起來合作好 謝謝盧縣議委員部長請回OK好 我們接下來請高金素梅委員高金素梅委員高金素梅委員不在接下來請麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員不在接下來請馬文君委員"},{"start":18862.103,"end":18863.066,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國防部長請顧部長"},{"start":18879.539,"end":18892.983,"text":"這次我們針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算的部分我們在行政院提出的這個國安任性特別預算裡面總共5700億那我們國防的部分就佔了1132億可是我們看到"},{"start":18900.225,"end":18902.826,"text":"因為首先因為這個時間很倉促我們在很短的時間框出這麼大的一筆預算可是我們在送進來的這些相關的資料裡面發現很多的問題一方面它非常的混亂"},{"start":18916.551,"end":18919.892,"text":"因為包括主計單位跟一些需求單位其實他們送出來的數量數字其實大概都搭不上來所以我想這個裡面還存在很多問題而且這個編列的裡面我想提出幾個來請部長大概就這些部分其實還可以做一些檢討"},{"start":18936.636,"end":18955.925,"text":"我們應該要把錢花在刀口上尤其我們國防預算難得如果說我們有這樣的經費應該要用在對的地方那特別預算是針對有特殊的狀況或需求或者政務的需要特別編的而且甚至裡面有很多是舉債的那如果說我們隨便亂用我覺得這個會對不起我們很多納稅人的我們的民脂民膏"},{"start":18962.748,"end":18981.462,"text":"首先我們提幾個來看國防部含所屬的特別預算案裡面在兩年內你要執行大概400個案子國防部它核心的工作在這一次的韌性預算裡面它主要是強化韌性一直強調韌性可是我們看到預算的內容"},{"start":18982.202,"end":19009.862,"text":"比如說你對於彈藥庫還有裝備的庫房作戰中心等等如果你要做這些的整建所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固防震防爆應該是做這些可是我們看到的是你是換掉舊的設備買新的大型的LED的螢幕高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備甚至會議室有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達五萬塊"},{"start":19011.363,"end":19013.806,"text":"訂製一個會議桌就要250萬兩個會議室這樣的會議桌要500萬我們覺得非常不可思議那像在囤儲一些我們的戰備用水我們現在買的水一瓶公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢可是我們在這一次要買的水特別有不同的規格"},{"start":19034.727,"end":19045.189,"text":"我們買到一瓶120塊等於是我們現在買的12倍以上所以你編了8億將近8億的錢我們看到這些林林總總我現在講的這個裡面還有很多我們提出這幾個還有很多的單位他把錢拿來鋪馬路甚至有造橋蓋鋼棚還有防水設施換門窗電力設施換新整修游泳池"},{"start":19062.493,"end":19069.657,"text":"這個都是很多靶場也是近三年內我們公務預算才整修完成結果你現在又納入特別預算還是重複的同樣的靶場所以我們不知道說為什麼這些預算可以這樣編可以這樣用那這些部分還有一個因為時間的關係我先把它提出來"},{"start":19081.843,"end":19084.685,"text":"就是在這個資通作業環境跟設備的部分總共編了673億可是這673億裡面有很多他做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備跟大量的民用資通訊設備跟軟體"},{"start":19098.616,"end":19119.956,"text":"这个我们每年都花高额的公务预算在做而且现在也还在做可是我们现在用特别预算又编了好几百亿将近700亿都在做这些而且很多的钱还是拿来付那个授权费他的授权费三年三年后咧在编好几百亿吗"},{"start":19121.129,"end":19130.936,"text":"所以就這幾個非常不合理的地方我們好不容易如果國防預算有增加第一我們希望可以增加我們所有國軍的福利當我們需要給國軍加急或加薪的時候希望可以落實第二每一個每一分錢我們也希望他用在對的地方像剛剛我提到的你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池這是應該放在特別預算的嗎"},{"start":19149.4,"end":19176.049,"text":"部長要不要簡單回應說明泳池我的了解是因為義務役的部分我們要做相關的泳訓部長那是他們的說明他每個泳池都拿出來做整建而且有部長如果你要做我們不反對他應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算我剛剛講的這些其實他在公務預算有很多都可以做你不是用特別預算拿來做這些"},{"start":19177.557,"end":19201.478,"text":"我想跟委員報告整個大方向來看是整件褲子設置訓場的環境這些都是為了我們一方面是大量的這些武器的跟彈藥囤儲的需求那一方面為了後備戰力的改革跟恢復一年級義務役的實戰化訓練所需要相關細節有關委員指摘的部分我後製室要不要說明一下"},{"start":19202.819,"end":19224.027,"text":"我想 沒關係 部長我們在體驗上面有提出來剛剛你說像一年起的義務役一年起的義務役不是現在突然有的你這個預算是現在編的我們現在說的你包括剛剛我說的整建或者其他的支出我們認為如果你有需要你也可以編可是你應該編在公務預算你特別預算應該用在什麼樣的地方剛剛蓋馬路什麼的防射防水這個都不是應該做的"},{"start":19231.77,"end":19253.25,"text":"而且有很多特規的東西或者像把我們所有軍人還有我們去軍醫院去看病的這些個資如果他的雲端資料必須放在境外應該讓國人很清楚的知道這部分我們在討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討好不好好 謝謝委員的意思是"},{"start":19258.697,"end":19273.852,"text":"部長 你那個是不是就是會後之後再請那個對 我想委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回覆的話那我們就在討論的時候再來做說如果主席可以讓你回覆的話當然也可以沒有 我想整個的"},{"start":19275.458,"end":19299.798,"text":"就國土防衛能量的部分假設我們用一般的作業維持費你要來看的話那你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關在庫存的設施在靶場我們的費用是多少那我們有辦法在有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內來集中大量的來集中資源快速來籌建相關的庫存設備跟訓場環境這是我們現在提出來認為急迫的地方"},{"start":19299.838,"end":19325.114,"text":"部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括靶場設施包括靶場設施我再提醒部長一次包括靶場設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的質疑我們可以詳細在裡面來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的 謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好"},{"start":19329.517,"end":19350.368,"text":"但是我還是要說明這個委員的旨在並不確實好不好OK 好 謝謝這個資料你們自己看清楚好 麥委員謝謝你也謝謝部長好 接下來請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在接下來請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":19362.781,"end":19370.488,"text":"謝謝主席 有請海委會管組委還有海巡署署長管組委還有海巡署張署長"},{"start":19388.508,"end":19404.742,"text":"選委員好主委好 署長好因為是特別預算所以它也有一定的急迫性跟緊急性在這幾天第一個這是JAMSTOWN的報告它有提到中國海洋石油最近在做干擾"},{"start":19406.904,"end":19426.209,"text":"因為它離東沙的距離的限制水域非常近又是一個比較新型態的灰色地帶的干擾模式當然我們最近已經在鎮院提出了海嵐七法當然某種程度可以遏止跟這些電纜等等相關的一些問題還有光纖針對這個比較新型態針對這種鑽油船等等的干擾目前掌握的狀況到底如何"},{"start":19436.318,"end":19453.634,"text":"跟委員報告有關於專警平台目前我們是維持監控那有關於這個議題跨部會的機制都有建立起來那站在國安的立場我們第一個我們當然非常嚴厲的來譴責中國在這樣的一個海域裡面從事這個行為"},{"start":19460.14,"end":19476.916,"text":"雖然說各方面的考量我們在具體的行動上面我們以說監控為主雖然是以監控為主但是基本上我們保持非常非常高度的一個檢測持續會這樣子的來監控下去"},{"start":19483.104,"end":19501.307,"text":"因為這個我比較擔心的事情是因為就除了這一個剛剛講的這一個鑽油的這個部署之外他好像也有在測試我看到7月16號和9月13號他們都有去做這些干擾這個東沙水域的這個行動那因為我看這一個所以一直到這幾天都還有"},{"start":19503.108,"end":19526.205,"text":"對,剛好這幾天會讓我覺得比較concern的地方就是因為以往一個月三、四次可能差不多但這一次這幾天等於是連續了好幾天13號、14號、15號、16號雖然說以一整個月來講這個頻率可能因為它後半段可能沒有但是它那個集中程度可能跟過往又已經不太一樣這也是我覺得蠻急迫的一個原因"},{"start":19527.302,"end":19541.39,"text":"最近在東沙的襲擾我們確實有發現說頻率比較密集尤其是過去很可能它沒有完成一圈的襲擾但是這一次兩艘船連續並等於是兩艘船編隊繞了兩圈我們才驅離出去"},{"start":19547.973,"end":19574.065,"text":"接下來很快的又有另外一艘海警船持續進來限制水域洗腦我們有發現平次是比較密集因為我們雙十國慶即將要來到所以在這種時候我們都會有專案維持更高度的警戒所以針對東沙的這一次我們有加派一艘大艦等於是在這兩次的洗腦當中"},{"start":19577.026,"end":19591.682,"text":"我們是用兩艘大艦這樣的量能來做監控這些部分我們都感覺到非常的困擾中國在灰色洗腦的部分他們很多樣性的不斷的翻新他們的手法"},{"start":19592.202,"end":19619.194,"text":"譬如說最近有一些新的發展譬如說如果說是以中國的船隻它擱淺了以後如果它失去動力的話那需要中國那邊想要來做拖船的方式把它拖回去等等我們也都不排除把這一種在我們的海域製造某種程度的有限度的海難然後要由他們的"},{"start":19620.895,"end":19637.791,"text":"甚至於他們的公務船要來到我們的海域去處理等等這種我們都保持高度的警戒都有在防範這些事情被當作是灰色洗腦的手段好 謝謝主委那我最後兩個小細節就是說當然第一個就是我看到就是說他們這次這個閩獅魚"},{"start":19639.733,"end":19654.681,"text":"他這個在喬裝的過程當中他等於是類似是他們海警局的船然後又裝作是他們這一個等於是他本來應該是民兵的這個背景然後假裝是執法的船就是我們過往看到的都是倒過來的就是他明"},{"start":19655.461,"end":19675.354,"text":"明明是它有執法的量能但它偽裝成是一般民用但這一次我看到報告裡面有提到說有這兩艘它彼此在切換的時候有一艘它本來就是本來是中國這個海警局裡面的船那這樣的一個偵測對這一個海巡署來講有沒有造成比較多的困擾因為這種AIS的它這個切換這個模式越來越多元"},{"start":19676.298,"end":19693.804,"text":"跟委員報告經過這個報導以後我們有回溯去了解並還沒有找到說中國的漁船它用假冒的AS來假冒成為是俄羅斯的船我們有看到說這兩艘船確實是有"},{"start":19694.344,"end":19713.764,"text":"用兩組以上有一艘船是用兩組仿冒的AIS有一艘船是用三組這個AIS但是他們仿造的是仿冒的一艘是仿冒海警船中國的海警船然後一個是俄羅斯的另外一艘是仿冒漁船所以沒有找到仿冒俄羅斯船的這個AIS的狀況"},{"start":19715.886,"end":19743.858,"text":"我們持續會做資訊的交流我們後續還會再更釐清這個案件目前這個案件我們還沒有查到說它是仿冒俄羅斯的軍艦我們查到的是仿冒中國的海警船因為時間關係我們的修法很重要我們的船舶法有在修對於AIS的這樣的一個偽造偽冒的狀態我們有新的法案送進來立法院了"},{"start":19744.398,"end":19772.38,"text":"對就是我希望這個傳播法的修法對於他沒有去遵照就是沒有如實的去告知他正確的身份跟位置這個以後可能是要處罰的那希望能夠給這一個海巡單位有一個執法的手段這第一個但第二個就是因為新型態實在太多了所以需要新的設備需要這個新的monitor的方式剛剛講說要監測嘛這個監測在這個特別預算裡面到底是哪裡能夠去增加這個量能希望明天在討論的時候能夠跟國人說明"},{"start":19772.52,"end":19796.494,"text":"我們在最近扣留的越界漁船上面也發現了民兵在上面那這些我們都有保持監控之中好 謝謝謝謝沈博洋委員好 主委請回接下來請林佩祥委員林佩祥委員林佩祥 不對 應該范園"},{"start":19800.073,"end":19810.079,"text":"林佩祥委員不在接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":19839.515,"end":19842.979,"text":"請經濟部部長好 請經濟部的龔部長各位好"},{"start":19850.014,"end":19877.544,"text":"國務長 我剛跟中華掛斷中華現在在辦這個2025年的台灣設計展設計展辦得不錯 這是你們跟他們合辦嘛這算年度大事以前都在六都第四道的這個造化線那它是歷史有史以來最多的 最大的它有三個展區為中華到六港還有張嵐的點燈橋參會有19個展館我今天早上去了我看他們很努力在做市長 何市長代表你去了啦"},{"start":19878.144,"end":19899.807,"text":"對 因為我在立法院 沒有辦法我還找時間看看立法院如果有空的話彰化的引擎冠軍很多他也是中小企業這個言香對台灣的這個貢獻是非常大的可是這段時間他受到很大的一個衝擊特別是高關稅的這個衝擊那王惠美 王縣長跟整個團隊非常認真我希望你這段時間"},{"start":19901.088,"end":19916.932,"text":"要多去幫忙 把台灣市長辦得更好上次已經有去過一次我跟院長也去過 我自己也再去過了這段時間要多幫忙 讓彰化可以發光讓全台灣 全世界可以看得到可以 沒問題接下來我要問高關稅的衝擊美國商業部長明確地說經營片要555分"},{"start":19927.469,"end":19955.396,"text":"那鄭麗菁 鄭副院長已經講了不只沒有討論也絕對不接受嘛 對不對所以你們都貫徹絕對不接受 對不對副院長代表的就是我們台灣的態度那如果接受了或者實際做的嘴巴講的後來沒有達成實際做的變成真的五五分那就是賣台囉我給大家看一下美國的商業部長講的就是說"},{"start":19956.69,"end":19985.521,"text":"在川普的任期結束以前要將美國的晶片的自治力提升至少要變成40%目前美國只有2%台灣佔95%他明確的講到川普剩下三年多任內就要達到40%這代表什麼富國神山就變成半屏山了要半一半過對不對"},{"start":19986.767,"end":19993.634,"text":"而且裡面沒半啦就是台灣的部分還在持續增加啦現在台積電已經承諾1650億嘛那其中的他有六個廠恐怕到2028年大概可以量產的應該按照程序正常的程序應該適合三個廠"},{"start":20005.555,"end":20016.105,"text":"我給你一個非常明確的數據從2019年到2025年台積電在全球所有廠包括台灣 美國 日本 德國的投資"},{"start":20018.345,"end":20043.919,"text":"2019年是149億2020年是172億到了2021年第一次突破到300億最高最高的就是2020年了投資多少錢362億後來又降下來300億就是他一年如果投資全球所有的廠方包括台灣差不多38億那我現在跟你講我剛剛為什麼提醒你美國商業部長講這個話很重要"},{"start":20045.728,"end":20074.058,"text":"他在未來的三年多要把美國的自製力 晶片自製力要提高到40%這樣表示一年台積電去美國投資要250億你知道說1650嘛 對不對1650的1000億是未來的四年要投資一年就是250億那我剛剛跟你講最近這幾年投資多少錢包括台灣全球是300億當然會排擠啊這個就是現在你要去注意的地方"},{"start":20075.117,"end":20099.271,"text":"不是嘴巴講的一套 做的是一套如果只剩下五十億像最近這幾天 我是教育人教育人說我們的那個封測場會不會受到影響台中市議會整個都鬧翻了在質疑說他們的一期跟一期二期馬上到年底要開工會不會受影響台積電說都正常 正常台積電都說正常 包括台中科的過程"},{"start":20100.031,"end":20116.064,"text":"保定然後還有嘉義也會持續進行計畫不變嘛時間會不會有影響嘛保定我剛才說是非常理性物質科學的因為嘉義的部分主要是因為工程上他不是說政策上改變對啦"},{"start":20116.744,"end":20133.059,"text":"所以那個部長你一定要讓台中嘉義的整個台積電的投資跟工程要如期那我現在跟你講更重要的明明這個錢就排擠了我給你算給你聽了一年台積電投資300億美國如果每一年都拿走250億當然就影響台灣投資這第一類第二類我現在給你比較給你看 你看喔"},{"start":20137.657,"end":20165.86,"text":"他講說美國這三個部長說他的投資金額要超過五千億的美金要從封測到整個封裝都要完整下面這句話最重要的要把整個產業鏈帶回美國才能達成他說要讓台灣參與要讓台灣參與而且整個產業鏈都要執行那這個跟前幾天鄭麗菁講的台灣模式不是一樣嗎你嘴巴說我絕對不同意五五分"},{"start":20167.214,"end":20194.601,"text":"結果你的台灣模式擴大對美投資做的是什麼政府跟企業分工然後政府還要去提供金融信保的機制我們的金人我也提供一些數據給你聽就是說如果到2028年到台積電在美國建了這個廠大概第三個廠可以開始量產這三個廠出來的話每月的這個量產的是大概5.3萬片"},{"start":20196.561,"end":20213.31,"text":"現在我們5奈米以下在台灣現在越產能就是25萬片但是我們現在到2028年我們還會增建所以這個不可能是1比1問題來了嘛絕對不可能的那問題來了嘛美國的商業部長怎麼可以講說他要五五分呢"},{"start":20214.55,"end":20242.437,"text":"在未來三年他要五五分然後更重要的我們的對美談判的代表我們的鄭麗菁副院長都提一個台灣模式我們又要去增加用一個產業部落副院長就說不可能五五分他已經說明了我們某些半導體的整個產業搬到美國去副院長已經有說明了嘴巴講的跟實際做的不一樣嗎來 看一看你去對比鄭麗菁的台灣模式到美國的商業部長要達成的五五分"},{"start":20243.496,"end":20271.603,"text":"不能說很像啊只能說一模一樣啊因為你嘴巴講的不同意可是你實際做出來的我剛剛提供的你的晶片的產業就會外移到美國去嘛我剛剛提供給那個委員是實際的數字就是按照台積電的實際上到2028年他三個廠蓋完大概五萬多片越產人那我們現在已經二十五萬現在美國商業部長跟你講也跟你們他說這個信息在電視上專訪他很清楚講已經跟我們代表團已經傳達回來了嘛"},{"start":20273.496,"end":20288.31,"text":"那他要你投資這麼多錢 我跟你算過啦你的錢就是給美國1.25億你就排擠到台灣的投資嘛 這第一點嘛第二點他要達到五五分未來三年多你現在又把你的產業晶片的產業部落到美國去"},{"start":20289.666,"end":20315.983,"text":"那你不是影響到台灣的辦法所以人家才講說你的護國神山戲頓是不是變成半屏山了嘛實際上就是不可能嘛我剛才提到了2028年5萬多片我們現在已經25萬片所以現在才我們現在的五分之一而已啊所以那個美國的商業部長是亂講是不是這個我沒有辦法評論我沒有辦法評論他在電視上專訪直接清楚講所以跟我們代表團明確的表達了結果我們這邊還講說沒有討論"},{"start":20318.339,"end":20333.321,"text":"那是說他胡說八道嗎我們的賴清德總統昨天還特別講什麼要協助美國成為AI的世界中心要讓美國再次偉大台灣的總統最重要是台灣偉大吧"},{"start":20334.383,"end":20355.2,"text":"美國再次偉大然後把我們的經費五五分嗎立足台灣佈局全球這本來就是政策的方向台灣半導體先做得非常好才有辦法美國才有辦法藉我們的半導體而發展現在就是你們不要只有喊口號你從實際我剛剛跟你講的不管是資金投入美國一年250億不管是"},{"start":20357.282,"end":20376.593,"text":"鄭麗晶提出來的台灣模式你就是我們晶片的從上中下游整個晶片肌肉的移轉到美國去嘛對不對你這個裡面牽扯到多少資金要出去多少的產業要出去多少工作機會要出去你們都有責任跟民眾講清楚耶你們大部分錢都沒講耶"},{"start":20379.235,"end":20383.44,"text":"不是只有台積電喔是整個晶片的產業喔部長你是很有名的財經專家不是只有台積電富國神山變半屏山整個晶片的產業"},{"start":20396.835,"end":20420.14,"text":"IC設計上面有聯發科對不對 銳裕聯融 封裝測試日月光細頻 晶圓電池 設備跟材料商台達電 秦創 南亞對 報告委員這是整個你們所謂的政經所謂的台灣模式要過去 上中下游耶那你們 部長我問一下"},{"start":20424.641,"end":20439.447,"text":"这些厂商做全球布局在那边可以因此力量延伸赚钱这个当然也是好事台湾它会持续扩敞持续最先进的技术都在台湾资金是有限的"},{"start":20440.72,"end":20467.31,"text":"去美國當然台灣受影響你的人才會外流 你的工作機會會過去去那邊是借力使力借他們的這些科技人才也好或是土地水電 這是借力使力保定 我們有非常距離所以台灣有多少的上中下游的晶片產業多少資金會出去 哪幾家會去影響多少工作機會 不准再用詳細書面回答好不好時間有限 直接回答問題"},{"start":20468.29,"end":20493.392,"text":"那個已經站起來一段時間啦 這樣好不好我剛問的問題第一個 不要只有嘴巴講我現在跟你講的都非常實際的台灣模式 鄭麗君清楚講我們晶片整個部聚落是要過去的你給我四個很具體的多少資金要出去 要到美國去第二個 資金喔 對不對哪幾家是會去的"},{"start":20494.264,"end":20504.273,"text":"第三個更重要 影響多少的工作機會我們沒有辦法幫企業宣布事情我們可以講說是企業對外公開部長 政府已經講了是說你們採取分工政府有產業過去你們要開始 要去做調查嘛 對不對"},{"start":20516.974,"end":20527.922,"text":"所以我剛要了四個指標這是鄭麗卿講的嘛你一個禮拜天給我好不好有多少資金出去你不是說產業出去然後你們負責去審核嗎我們不能幫企業宣佈他的規劃除非他自行對外輸出那你把你鄭麗卿今天的規劃給我好不好 謝謝謝謝張旗開委員"},{"start":20544.674,"end":20551.858,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員陳永康委員陳永康委員不在接下來請范雲委員請問主席剛剛他超過三分鐘我們是不是也比照辦理"},{"start":20568.84,"end":20590.593,"text":"為了公平起見我這個齊凱因為他一直跟這個部長兩個一直在那邊我覺得這個是一直重複我還是希望各位委員大家還是要遵守我們議程的規定就盡量不要去違反我們相關議程的規定也希望主席可以公平有請教育部部長 鄭部長請鄭部長鄭部長在吧"},{"start":20611.324,"end":20619.752,"text":"委員好部長好首先要肯定部長在這次我們花蓮的災區的過程中第一時間點就聯繫國防部拜託他們務必先處理學校然後也非常的關心就是學生復課的狀況也把我們國教署長請他進駐花蓮"},{"start":20632.645,"end":20653.625,"text":"那所以過去幾天我都有跟國教署長聯絡知道他非常的關心也跟花蓮政府協調很多跟學生跟老師的就是救災的事情還有復課的狀況但是今天我想針對復課之後發生的一些狀況想跟部長討論看是不是能夠處理得更好下一頁"},{"start":20655.94,"end":20676.979,"text":"昨天這是根據中央社引述花蓮縣政府的數據昨天已經開始復課了但是我們看到這邊整理的表格每一個學校的情況不一樣看起來以光復商工來講的話其實有非常多的學生是請假70個學生請假71個學生是視訊"},{"start":20681.122,"end":20699.63,"text":"那這個部分可是教育部給我們的數字今天我們要到的是首日出席率130人所以我有點不確定這個數字到底應該以中央社花蓮縣政府為準還是教育部那如果是以我們看到的花蓮縣政府的數據其實就幼兒園的部分請假率還是蠻高的"},{"start":20703.451,"end":20722.904,"text":"國中小其實也是有74個人請假視訊上課27人但將近有100個人不能到學校請問數字的部分部長這邊有沒有掌握光復商工到底是出席130人還是140幾個幾乎全校不是視訊就是請假"},{"start":20726.225,"end":20754.191,"text":"詳細的數字我會後再跟委員報告但是就關乎三公本來這一個禮拜就是等於以視訊優先然後另外中小學的部分我們知道還有部分的災區家園還沒重建特別幼兒園這裡邊可能有一些災區的家庭他小孩的照顧我想這整體的一個我們大概是像今天也有媒體報導說學生是空手到學校"},{"start":20754.671,"end":20770.85,"text":"事實上這個都已經這個書包書籍被沖走的本來在學校裡面都已經幫他全部都這個準備好了學生只要沒有書包沒有這個文具沒有課本的學校都已經幫他準備好他就可以直接取用"},{"start":20771.491,"end":20786.658,"text":"好 謝謝部長我想現在我們的確是面臨兩難因為有些家長的確也希望學生能夠早點去學校像您講的就是如果以花蓮商工為例的話雖然你們希望他能夠試訓"},{"start":20787.859,"end":20802.773,"text":"可是有一半的學生其實視訊他也沒有辦法參與我們了解到的狀況他的確是需要家裡還需要重整家園需要蠻多的部分我現在想問的事情是我們能不能夠有一些彈性上課的方案"},{"start":20804.674,"end":20825.357,"text":"已經明確連視訊都做不到的學生每個學校中小學花蓮商工的比重不一樣他們應該都是還在投入救災或者家裡有狀況教育部是不是能夠給他一些方案不管是補課或者是事先報備出缺勤就不計最重要的是能不能有其他替代的線上學習資源"},{"start":20827.198,"end":20846.55,"text":"讓這些學生的學習不會因為家裡的家園重整而失去了這個機會跟權益這部長這邊是不是能夠感謝委員提醒確實我們有部分的家庭因為現在通信基本上沒問題所以有部分家裡還需要去整理的有部分學生沒辦法來到學校的我們在"},{"start":20847.45,"end":20864.098,"text":"花蓮縣政府這一個部分我們縣花蓮關戶這一個附近我們請高中協助提供這些網路卡讓他們可以在家裡能夠用視訊那另外關戶商工因為譬如說汽修科所有的汽車實習的工廠全部都已經報廢了"},{"start":20868.18,"end":20889.173,"text":"那也就慘不忍睹我們現在在汽車工廠整理好以後也幫忙大學端去報會的一個汽車有八部現在學校同意有四部要使用包含民間也願意來捐贈這些汽車修復的這些重型機具我想這我們都持續來做下個禮拜應該都能夠實體上"},{"start":20892.895,"end":20917.587,"text":"教育部的這個部分的器具都有幫忙張羅那我們這邊掌握到的是教育部跟花蓮縣政府已經提供給學生網路卡分享器電腦課本行動載具我覺得這邊是相當好的但是我們也看到教師的教學需求有包含就是其實不是每個老師都能夠同時就是線上授課然後教室也上課這個混合實體上線的"},{"start":20920.228,"end":20949.488,"text":"教材跟學習資源那另外我們也收到陳情教師其實有些本身就是受災戶他本身就很難來上課那包含以光復商工來講他的教職員工的深宿舍是集中宿舍目前復員的情況也不明那還有很多老師住在那所以是不是教育部能夠有一些更具體的方案那我自己提出三個訴求那個主席站起來但是理論上我應該還有三分鐘"},{"start":20951.108,"end":20966.073,"text":"這第一個嚴寧彈性上課的方案讓仍然需要救災無法按表上課的師生他能夠兼顧學習也能夠清理家園那特別是出缺席的部分那能不能夠有一些補救的方案"},{"start":20966.613,"end":20992.401,"text":"那第二個教學如果需要支援的話那軟體的部分我想教育部應該很熟悉很多軟體的資源是不是能夠謝謝委員提醒第三就是受災戶的老師教育部是不是能夠盡速盤點哪些老師本身就是受災戶那他要兼顧上課跟家庭讓老師安心復課我們也跟委員一樣都有關心那至於學校的私生的宿舍現在都已經全部都恢復了"},{"start":20994.541,"end":21007.789,"text":"包含花蓮商工的部分宿舍全部恢復了嗎宿舍老師的部宿舍跟學生的宿舍基本上都已經清理完畢因為我們還有收到陳情不過沒關係 這個數字的部分沒有關係 我們會還有包含這三個訴求是不是兩個禮拜可以給本席書面報告好嗎可以"},{"start":21014.713,"end":21029.121,"text":"謝謝部長在第一時間就努力的協助師生關於學校的部分這些部分我希望能夠緊緊讓大家看到教育部更細心的照顧他們的權益謝謝部長謝謝范雲委員謝謝部長接下來請劉淑冰委員劉淑冰委員不在"},{"start":21041.803,"end":21059.457,"text":"現在請王定宇委員 王定宇委員 王定宇委員不在我們再請林淑芬委員 林淑芬委員 林淑芬委員不在邱政軍委員 邱政軍委員 邱政軍委員不在"},{"start":21060.592,"end":21074.753,"text":"洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在何新淳委員 何新淳委員 何新淳委員不在接下來我們請王振旭委員"},{"start":21084.592,"end":21096.037,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請衛福部呂次長好 請呂次長社家署周代理署長還有內政部劉部長內政部劉部長嘛劉部長 內政部嘛內政部我們也可以請一個對不起"},{"start":21109.033,"end":21117.902,"text":"社交署的郭州署長代理署長 郭代理署長內政部可以請國土法還是吳署長 吳署長 謝謝三位長官好 王委員好"},{"start":21131.021,"end":21151.074,"text":"今天針對這次的任性特別預算想要針對在超高齡社會之下如何打造跨部會的獨居老人安全的照顧網來跟三位長官做個討論我們也了解在這次的社家署在任性特別預算裡面編列了強化"},{"start":21152.094,"end":21168.432,"text":"獨居老人關懷服務有62.7億預計在115跟116年辦理相關強化獨居老人服務來針對擴大安全緊急救援裝置加強送餐服務等內容做一些處理"},{"start":21169.273,"end":21194.31,"text":"我們先看一個數據就是從2020年到2025年我們針對獨具老人的安裝緊急救援連線從18%提高到27%人數也增加了將近1萬多位在中低收入的部分安裝率甚至到達了40%相信這個都是貴部還有包括社家屬努力的成果是的"},{"start":21194.73,"end":21221.093,"text":"不過我相信這一次會再透過特別預算希望用更多元的方式來強化這方面的部分除了針對中低老人以外也希望有更務實的評估方式來針對所有符合條件的這些長者能夠提供原本是屬於居家式的也可以有更多的選擇包括穿戴式的選項這些部分都是讓我們非常肯定的地方"},{"start":21221.653,"end":21246.821,"text":"那因應超高齡社會之下我們也相信有需要更多的照顧模式還有更好的安全照顧方式才能夠達到賴總統希望能夠在未來的八年裡面的兩個重大的目標一個就是讓平均愈命可以從79歲提升到82歲那另外不健康愈命可以從10%降低到8%這個都很需要更多跨部會的這些討論演繹還有執行"},{"start":21249.302,"end":21272.504,"text":"所以今天我們有提出了三項政策性的建議來跟大家討論第一個部分就是用跨部會的研議獨居老人全面訪查詢問跟宣讀內容因為我們知道未來會針對於7萬位獨居老人做很完整的道普評估這個當然需要跟地方政府共同合作這個評估的內容裡面"},{"start":21274.566,"end":21295.791,"text":"如何能夠更完整、更多元包括如何讓這個癌篩、健檢、三高防治等等都能夠納為這次的內容尤其更重要的就是防跌就是防止跌倒我們也知道老人家最擔心的就是防止就是最怕它跌倒導致的生命的影響這個部分就需要有運動跟營養的補充、保護"},{"start":21299.432,"end":21319.891,"text":"還有在居家的部分 交通的部分也需要把好的照明還有好的防滑等措施也都能夠透過內政部的協助讓這個部分可以得到好的影響所以運動部 交通部等等所以這個全面啟動之前我們希望各個部會都要把這些內容都可以含括進來這是第一部分"},{"start":21320.211,"end":21339.651,"text":"第二部分就是有關於緊急救援連線裝置的可能裡面除了救援以外以這次花蓮老字的危險避難緊急撤離等等能不能夠同時把這個功能也跟內政部這邊共同來研議把它納為相關的可能的措施"},{"start":21340.231,"end":21359.162,"text":"最後一項就是要設定一個安裝率的目標是不是能夠在115年可以116年結束的時候可以到達50%的安裝率中低收入的部分可以到達60%類似的KPI這部分是不是就請大家一起共同來處理好的"},{"start":21359.682,"end":21383.409,"text":"非常感謝王委員誠如王委員剛所說的這個是我們超高齡社會賴總統也非常非常關心這一塊這個部分我們確實就是跨部會特別我要感謝內政部這邊劉仕芳 劉部長他也特別有指示就是說我們兩部共同來做這個合作還有包括我們現在目前這次有通過的一個有一個老宅老宅的這一個更新的方案"},{"start":21383.829,"end":21409.251,"text":"那這個部分衛福部也會跟內政部這邊我們共同來合作來給我們獨居老人一個最好的一個安全而且舒適的一個保障 謝謝所以我想最重要就是啟動調查之前在跟地方政府必須要有完整的內容這樣才能夠達到這個最好的目標沒錯 沒錯就大家共同努力好的 也非常感謝王委員一直以來對這個問題的關心 謝謝"},{"start":21417.421,"end":21432.379,"text":"好 謝謝王振旭委員接下來請王紅薇委員 王紅薇委員 王紅薇委員不在楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在接下來請吳佩奕委員發言"},{"start":21443.447,"end":21445.657,"text":"感謝主席 我邀請內政部部長請內政部劉部長"},{"start":21462.865,"end":21490.564,"text":"委員好部長好今天我們要審查的是任性的特別預算就在這個當下其實我們台灣仍然是面臨重大的災害的考驗在花蓮的馬太安的災情直到現在其實還需要很多的幫助那特別我一定要感謝我們政府各個部會以及我們的國軍在第一線真的是投入了很多的心力也提供很多的幫助那我想我們社會的任性需要繼續的努力"},{"start":21491.204,"end":21517.557,"text":"同時我們也看到許多是來自台灣社會各地各個角落自發的鏟子超人也就是台灣自發的志工們一個一個的帶著一個鏟子穿著一雙雨鞋就來到現場來協助救災這個是讓人非常的感動但是我們也看到在桃園挖土機航的老闆林鴻森先生因為"},{"start":21519.639,"end":21542.207,"text":"太盡力救災所以而往生這個其實也是令人相當的難過那我想無論如何救災防災這應當都是我們政府的責任那民力是我們台灣的民間的力量讓人非常的感動但是我們政府也要來思考我們怎麼樣可以跟民力有一個更好的合作如此來去增加增強我們台灣的防災的能力"},{"start":21544.508,"end":21551.173,"text":"也讓我們今天審查這個預算的主題防災韌性它能夠更加的強韌那因為部長您同時是部長也是總統府全社會防衛韌性委員會的執密那我們在立法院有一個全民防衛連線那我也是會長所以今天特別想要跟部長您討論這個問題我在我的選區萬華跟南機場正好看到有幾個社福單位"},{"start":21567.506,"end":21586.56,"text":"平時是在協助弱勢但是因為平常有儲備有準備有組織有空間所以在災時他們可以再迅速第一時間就來投入救災我想這是一個模式可以給我們來參考首先是這個休息關懷協會這個有一本書叫做工的人這作者林立青他成立了休息關懷協會一開始是在輔助我們萬華的街友"},{"start":21589.882,"end":21605.167,"text":"教他們使用高壓清洗機到學校裡面來協助學校清洗這慢慢就成立了一個在社區裡面的災防的據點所以第一個有人有組織第二個有培訓平常就在培訓第三個他有物資有倉儲的空間"},{"start":21606.667,"end":21608.589,"text":"那這邊我要特別感謝我們國防部的鎮戰局在去年的時候鎮戰局有兩個縣市過去是眷舍的空間來提供我們社區做公益的認養所以呢就讓另外兩個團體一個是新降堂這個是水電師傅職人組成的協會"},{"start":21624.221,"end":21640.948,"text":"另外一個是效力志工團長期在台灣投入在地救災但是每次救災完例如說鏟子 手套 雨鞋這些東西丟掉可惜啊他們都把它重新清洗好再儲存起來所以我感謝國防部也提供這樣的空間讓我們在社區裡面有這樣子的災防據點"},{"start":21642.048,"end":21658.434,"text":"那再來呢還有一個模式我覺得也很重要是叫做食物銀行這是在南機場我們有一位叫方和生里長長期投入食物銀行的工作他也曾經獲得總統文化獎那為什麼呢因為就在疫情的時候最嚴重的時候其實我們萬華南機場也曾經面臨幾乎是孤島的絕境物資送不進來"},{"start":21663.996,"end":21671.207,"text":"所以呢在疫情之後方和勝里長就到台灣各地這次在花蓮他也有跟門諾基金會合作的食物銀行平常就來儲存需要的乾糧甚至盥洗用品相關的乾淨的內衣褲衣物都有"},{"start":21679.179,"end":21685.68,"text":"所以呢在上個禮拜四期第一時間他們在當地就有空間就有車輛就有貨車也有長期配合著在地的大賣場超市第一時間就幫他們把乾糧送到災區了所以這都是長期平時就建立起來的所以我想這樣的來自民間的力量的這種災防的模式是很值得我們政府來去思考未來怎麼樣可以建立起來讓我們可以在民間的防災跟我們政府的"},{"start":21709.185,"end":21734.599,"text":"各項的部會功能上面有一個更好的合作接下來我想要邀請部長你請留我請衛福部跟農業部一起來因為講到食物銀行食物銀行目前在我們中央的主管機關是衛福部因為它被放在社會救助可是在這一次的災防當中我們看到它食物銀行其實轉做物資儲備偏鄉運輸這樣子的功能"},{"start":21735.279,"end":21746.747,"text":"那食物銀行專法我們已經講民間商業等了十多年了到現在沒有出來所以我特別也要跟內政部來討論就是說我覺得在防災裡面食物銀行也是一個很重要的一個角色所以呢我希望這個我們衛福部關於專法趕快去研議但是內政部未來在整個防災體系也可以把它納入來思考那我也要請教農業部"},{"start":21761.958,"end":21782.689,"text":"農業部有一個主要業務叫做糧食安全目前你們有沒有把食物銀行納入糧食安全的業務呢我想我們目前我們的公糧收了以後我會把當期米提供一些比較弱勢的這些就是你們自己來做嗎我們有沒有在輔導民間成立食物銀行呢我們自己那是我們現在自己來做的部分那我們現在有跟一些"},{"start":21785.01,"end":21795.377,"text":"量販店像一些量販店他把一些即將過期的有沒有這些東西進到區域性的食物銀行有去這是我們有跟他溝通我們有來協助美和好這個我再請這個最後就是我要特別拜託我們內政部在未來再去建立我們跟民間的這個災防的合作的模式當中可以就這一次花蓮的經驗我們來汲取一些讓未來我們的災防據點可以更多"},{"start":21814.349,"end":21841.053,"text":"好 我們一定會提出精進的方案好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳佩儀委員的發言接下來請劉建國委員劉建國委員劉建國委員不在接下來請黃婕委員黃婕委員黃婕委員不在好 接下來請林楚英委員"},{"start":21852.123,"end":21855.514,"text":"謝謝主席各位部會首長都辛苦了有請國防部顧部長好 請顧部長"},{"start":21867.701,"end":21887.563,"text":"林委員好部長好我剛剛看到一個最新的訊息是聯合報它在剛剛1點57分發的是說華爾街日報表示冰推顯示台灣天然氣庫僅存11天中國只要透過檢疫就可以逼台灣限電"},{"start":21889.285,"end":21910.608,"text":"我想這個題目就是台灣在面對中國封鎖的時候到底我們在油料在戰備物資能夠撐多久一直以來像剛剛有質詢的這個民眾黨的張祺凱委員又或者是像國民黨的朱立倫主席在辦這個所謂公投的時候也曾經都一直的存疑"},{"start":21911.969,"end":21928.838,"text":"其實這一次我們在有關於這一次的特別預算的時候我知道這個民眾黨國民黨在乎的都是要不要發一萬那麼其實在所有的預算當中除了財政部要不要發一萬發現金之外最重要也佔比例"},{"start":21929.858,"end":21948.448,"text":"有20.6%的就是1132億的國防韌性那麼其實這個國防韌性裡面又分三大點本席特別看了一下強化指管通訊韌性這個當然就是擔心我們在"},{"start":21949.878,"end":21969.175,"text":"有關於真的遇到國家危難狀況的時候通訊會不會斷離但是有關於設備更新戰備厚實能量的部分建立彈藥庫有24億然後飲用水有20億然後這個有關於軍品跟保修工廠庫儲的設備就高達233億"},{"start":21975.48,"end":22003.425,"text":"這個部分部長可不可以詳細的做解說因為現在我相信非常多在野黨的委員會認為就是為什麼不放在所謂的長年編的預算要放在特別預算而且是在115年 116年就要來做執行這個是不是扣合了在野黨的擔憂扣合了國際媒體的擔憂這些錢到底花在什麼地方 部長"},{"start":22005.515,"end":22020.788,"text":"特別預算當然特別強調韌性在國防的這一塊裡面在戰備用油的部分跟委員報告因為我們平時是自囤戰備用油但是我們為了敵情的威脅日趨嚴峻我們現在是規劃"},{"start":22022.565,"end":22044.631,"text":"規劃要向中油來採購32億多的戰備油料由中油代囤之後我們會因此會成為一個分散的囤儲會這樣的囤儲來多元供普的方式來強化我們儲油的一個韌性這一個我想維持儲油的韌性對我們的整個戰備的一個持續力是非常重要的"},{"start":22045.512,"end":22061.569,"text":"另外有關水的部分主要是在強調長效期的飲用水的儲量因為我們過去作業維持會裡面所規範的瓶裝飲用水是屬於一年期的"},{"start":22062.089,"end":22078.671,"text":"我們現在要囤儲的是5到7年期的參考日本的做法跟我們國內相關的產能我們可以生產這些5到7年期的飲用水這一方面可以降低經常退耗的品質另外一方面當然就是整個的飲用水的這樣子的一個韌性能夠建構"},{"start":22080.573,"end":22103.052,"text":"那另外零附件的部分呢我們也要籌補因為我們一般的年度的作業維持會只能夠滿足這個裝備的妥善跟平時這個演訓的需求所以有餘裕才會補充這個戰備存量那我們現在能要快速的來補充戰備的需求量的話就要用這個特別預算來加強我們後勤的一個資深的韌性"},{"start":22103.933,"end":22120.619,"text":"好部長因為剛好有這樣的一個華爾街日報的新聞嘛質疑台灣目前只有11天天然氣的庫存所以說我可不可以具體的問因為時間到了只剩下最後一分鐘喔就是在我們的這個1132億加強國防韌性尤其是在設備更新後時戰備能量"},{"start":22127.941,"end":22141.672,"text":"在這兩年補上來之後我們可以延長多少一旦台灣面臨封鎖的時候我們是不是就可以再多撐一點可以多撐多久那這個部分部長能不能回應"},{"start":22142.809,"end":22168.96,"text":"我想大家關切人員的脆弱性都是在LNG就是屬於液化天然石油氣的部分液化天然氣的部分那在液化天然氣的部分的相關的供應當然我們也有我們的一些計畫存在但是這個我想沒有辦法公開來說明但是我們國軍內部所需要"},{"start":22169.6,"end":22198.223,"text":"作戰所需要的這些持有的這個儲備的能力這個我們需要快速的提升那這同樣也反映到我們的彈藥的囤儲我們新式的武器籌貨之後彈藥的囤儲我們也要加大整件我們的彈藥囤儲的設施然後讓我們的彈藥囤儲的這個能量整個能夠提升所以有油跟這個彈藥的這個大量的囤儲才能夠讓我們的這個支撐我們的戰變的能量到達一個我們認為可以的程度這樣子"},{"start":22198.703,"end":22226.975,"text":"好 所以言下之意就是我做個結論因為主席已經站起來那就是在有關於國防戰力提升的部分這個部分也許在野黨的委員磨刀霍霍但是又要馬兒好也要讓馬兒能夠有草吃我們才有能力來面對中國或者是其他外在的威脅所以這個部分我讓部長已經講得很清楚了也希望明天在進行預算審查的時候在野黨的委員過去一直在質疑我們一旦面對封鎖"},{"start":22228.235,"end":22248.527,"text":"我們要如何來做防衛的提升這個部分就是花在這裡也希望部長跟國防部要好好的做一個解釋跟說明不要讓在野黨委員磨刀霍霍就砍掉了那這等於是砍掉了我們的國防安全砍掉了我們的命脈是 相關的個案可能需要明天才能夠來再跟委員做個指教這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝林楚昀委員部長請回"},{"start":22256.078,"end":22275.781,"text":"接下來請徐宇貞委員 徐宇貞委員 徐宇貞委員不在接下來請謝易鳳委員 謝易鳳委員 謝易鳳委員不在再請陳超明委員 陳超明委員 陳超明委員不在"},{"start":22279.378,"end":22308.22,"text":"報告委員會我們今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢現在進行討論事項及臨時提案之處理請議事人員宣讀今日審查預算案之審查項目提案共計兩百三十七案宣讀完畢後休息那我們明日上午九時繼續開會處理預算提案請各位列席的官員現在可以先行離席"},{"start":22319.45,"end":22326.801,"text":"宣讀中央政府意念國際形勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案114至116年度"},{"start":22330.526,"end":22352.031,"text":"募的內容請委員自行參閱一 收入合計五千五百億元一 稅入無劣數二 債務職舉借一千零五十六億元一百一十四年度一千零五十六億元一百一十五年度一百一十六年度均無劣數三 已用以前年度稅計剩餘四千四百四十四億元一百一十四年度"},{"start":22353.294,"end":22356.336,"text":"1739億1723萬9千元115年度1241億6851萬8千元116年度1463億1424萬3千元二支出合計5500億元稅出5500億元114年度2795億元"},{"start":22375.049,"end":22378.131,"text":"17239000元115年度1241億6851萬8000元116年度1463億1424萬3000元第一款內政部主管112億5000萬元114年度520萬元115年度57億1966萬4000元116年度55億2513萬6000元"},{"start":22402.303,"end":22413.346,"text":"第一项国土管理署级所属57亿5000万元114年度200万元115年度28亿7400万元116年度28亿7400万元第二项警政署级所属39亿1480万元114年度无劣数115年度24亿3346万4千元116年度14亿8133万6千元"},{"start":22429.591,"end":22434.494,"text":"第三項消防署級所屬15億8520萬元114年度320萬元115年度4億1220萬元116年度11億6980萬元第二款國防部主管1131億8776萬4千元114年度列數115年度357億020萬7千元"},{"start":22454.584,"end":22465.572,"text":"116年度774亿8755万7千元第一项国防部2亿1123万元114年度无劣数115年度1亿6623万元116年度4500万元第二项国防部所属1129亿7653万4千元114年度无劣数115年度355亿3397万7千元"},{"start":22481.983,"end":22506.573,"text":"一百一十六年度七千七百七百七十四億四千兩百五十五萬七千元第三款財政部主管兩千五百億一千一百一十四年度二四零二億元一百一十五年度九十億元一百一十六年度八億元第一項國庫數兩千五百億元一百一十四年度二四零二億元一百一十五年度九十億元"},{"start":22508.154,"end":22514.584,"text":"116年度8億元第四款教育部主管200億元114年度32億2000萬元115年度72億2000萬元116年度95億6千萬元第一項教育部200億元"},{"start":22523.456,"end":22528.339,"text":"114年度32億2000萬元115年度72億2000萬元116年度95億6000萬元第五款經濟部主管460億元114年度78億4400萬元115年度231億3765萬元116年度150億1835萬元"},{"start":22550.902,"end":22554.284,"text":"第一項經濟部19億5000萬元 114年度3億2500萬元115年度8億3750萬元 116年度7億8750萬元第二項產業發展署203億5000萬元 114年度17億8300萬元115年度123億7200萬元"},{"start":22573.377,"end":22575.998,"text":"116年度61億9500萬元第三項國際貿易署97億元114年度4億8500萬元115年度43億8500萬元116年度48億3000萬元第四項商業發展署26億5000萬元"},{"start":22592.506,"end":22596.39,"text":"114年度7億零900萬元115年度11億4100萬元116年度8億元第五項中小及新創企業署113億5000萬元114年度45億4200萬元115年度44億零215萬元116年度24億零585萬元"},{"start":22616.447,"end":22632.218,"text":"第六款 勞動部主管 二百五十億元一百一十四年度 三十億二千七百一十三萬三千元一百一十五年度 一百六十億零二七二萬八千元一百一十六年度 五十八億七零一三萬九千元"},{"start":22633.158,"end":22639.92,"text":"第一項勞動部100億元114年度無劣數115年度100億元116年度無劣數第二項勞動力發展署及所屬150億元114年度30億27億3萬3千元115年度61億0272萬8千元116年度58億7千013萬9千元第七款農業部主管190億元114年度47億699"},{"start":22662.227,"end":22674.277,"text":"6万5千元115年度76亿2351万元116年度66亿652万5千元第一项农业部180亿元114年度45亿9482万5千元115年度71亿3108万元116年度62亿7409万5千元第二项渔业属及所属2亿元"},{"start":22691.39,"end":22697.653,"text":"114年度1514萬元115年度9243萬元116年度9243萬元第三項農糧暑期暑暑8億元114年度1億6千萬元115年度4億元116年度2億4千萬元第八款衛生福利部主管360億元114年度200億元115年度"},{"start":22718.522,"end":22722.003,"text":"116億7763萬7千元116年度43億2236萬3千元第一項衛生福利部261億9779萬元114年度200億元115年度57億2154萬元116年度4億7625萬元"},{"start":22744.537,"end":22749.441,"text":"第二項社會及家庭署98億0221萬元114年度無劣數115年度59億5609萬7千元116年度38億4611萬3千元第九款海洋委員會主管295億6223萬6千元114年度4億5094萬1千元115年度79億8712萬2千元"},{"start":22771.081,"end":22799.2,"text":"一百一十六年度 兩百一十一億 兩千四百一十七萬三千元第一項 海巡署及所屬 二百八十四億 六千兩百九十三萬八千元一百一十四年度 四億五千零九十四萬一千元一百一十五年度 七十四億 四千九百八十一萬元一百一十六年度 二百零五億 六千兩百一十八萬七千元第二項 國家海洋研究院 十億九千九百二十九萬八千元"},{"start":22800.225,"end":22827.006,"text":"一百一十四年度五列數一百一十五年度五億三千七百三十一萬兩千元一百一十六年度五億六千一百九十八萬六千元有關證實別稅出預算水準以上機關別審查結果調整現在宣讀提案第一案簡略普發現金媒體費"},{"start":22830.985,"end":22848.877,"text":"經濟部勞動部衛生福利部媒體政策及業務宣導費八千零四十一萬四千元減劣處處罰現金沒宣費一千一千三百五十萬元以外其他業務費沒宣費減劣百分之三十提案委員王宏偉等人"},{"start":22850.785,"end":22859.419,"text":"第二案行政院應持續協助高雄基礎建設及交通建設計畫應與交通部國發會共同推動區域產業廊帶"},{"start":22862.431,"end":22883.32,"text":"與綠色基礎建設納入國土永續發展綱要年度檢討機制提案委員賴瑞榮等人第三案因應南北產業資源失衡行政院因編列預算支持經濟部與高雄設置研發中心強化產學合作結合高雄科技大學等單位建立研發聯盟"},{"start":22885.086,"end":22909.999,"text":"每半年向立法院提出南北研發能量分布進度報告提案委員賴瑞榮等人針對1962年貿易擴張法行政院依責成相關部會強化資訊公開對關稅談判相關進度事實對外說明維護談判正當性及國家利益提案委員賴瑞榮等人"},{"start":22912.2,"end":22920.024,"text":"對美關稅談判的結果行政院應與單獨議案送立法院實質審議內容應至少包含談判歷程結果區分個別產業之衝擊評估及各該因應對策提案委員張祺凱等人"},{"start":22927.208,"end":22955.18,"text":"第六案行政院應與一個月內在台美關稅談判及產業支持方案網站公開簽署專業智庫之關稅衝擊評估以維護人民知的權利提案委員張祺凱等人建請主計總署對特別預算有無技術性補回公務預算以及到底強化多少任性質量化資料提出書面報告提案委員林德福等人"},{"start":22956.38,"end":22980.451,"text":"第八案請行政院協調內政部及交通部提出機場安檢人力補強與智慧化系統建置進度書面報告內容說明各機場安檢儀器設備升級計畫運用先進科技取代傳統人力具體方案預算編列與期程規劃建置跨部會協調機制提案委員邱志偉等人"},{"start":22982.014,"end":22995.888,"text":"第九案為恢復財政部透明度與取債紀律避免特別預算常態化原要求行政院將經常性支出與可預見計畫回歸總預算處理提案委員徐欣盈等人"},{"start":22998.157,"end":23019.414,"text":"第十案 經濟部 勞動部 衛生福利部 媒體政策及業務宣導經費預算數八千零四十一萬四千元 減列百分之二十 提案委員徐旭銘等人十一案 台美關稅談判中 農業攸關國家存糧與食品安全 謀求台灣最佳利益外投食因守護"},{"start":23021.977,"end":23026.561,"text":"農業敏感產品相關談判中不能將農業農產品作為談判籌碼輕易犧牲提案委劉建國等人第十二案"},{"start":23034.181,"end":23063.237,"text":"要求行政院及農業部應於本次特別預算內納入進口受影響之補助與協助並於預留後續編列至兩百億元額度運用時優先支持農業提案委員郭國文等人十三案內政部應要求受託辦理計畫輔導工作專業團隊協助民眾成立公寓大廈管理委員會提供七樓以下無管委會公寓所有權人專案申請協助強化嘉義市老舊公寓"},{"start":23065.27,"end":23087.048,"text":"安全維護管理機制辦理情形已書面報告送立法院提案委員王美惠等人內政部在補助地方政府辦理防災協作中心及村裡防救災緊急衛生設備建置時應建立重點設備採購清單供地方政府參考"},{"start":23088.382,"end":23099.964,"text":"加速推動防災式培訓人力強化地方政府防救災能力辦理情形書面報告提交立法院提案委員王美惠等人"},{"start":23102.869,"end":23120.347,"text":"15案建議內政部除既有屋齡結構評估外應同步納入居住與使用情形建立自住長者或弱勢家庭優先的補助順序確保政策資源能真正落實在需要者身上提案委員張雅玲等人"},{"start":23122.97,"end":23133.886,"text":"建起内政部就无人机采购计划等细节包括国内外厂商比例等制作完整报告提案委员李坤成等人"},{"start":23137.09,"end":23155.481,"text":"17 加強照顧弱勢族群及提供關懷服務似乎無法看出對老舊房屋韌性強化的預算執行特殊性建請內政部能提出具體數據說明向立法院提出報告提案委員林德福等人"},{"start":23157.754,"end":23176.59,"text":"老宅延壽機能復興計畫現行申請條件僅限於公寓大廈管理委員會或全體所有權人共同提出形成制度障礙要求內政部國土管理署詳細妥適相關規範避免執行上產生障礙提案委員徐欣盈等人"},{"start":23178.723,"end":23200.279,"text":"老舊老宅延壽機能復興計畫及改善公有建築物防火避難空間及設備目前尚未建立公開透明資量化KPI與進度儀表板要求內政部建置老屋修繕進度公開儀表板並每月固定更新提案委員習新穎等人"},{"start":23202.651,"end":23220.953,"text":"老宅延壽機能復興計畫系配合長照政策內政部應將補助項目標準化為一戶三包應屆接衛福部長照3.0要求內政部國土管理署提出妥適方案提出專案報告送立法院"},{"start":23223.856,"end":23247.393,"text":"21 要求內政部優先盤點出全國各縣市村裡防救災緊急維生設備不足需補強的名單並優先補助偏鄉村裡建置提出計畫落實地方政府辦理防災緊急維生設備及疏散撤離教育訓練提案委員劉建國等人"},{"start":23249.623,"end":23270.583,"text":"凍結內政部主管國土管理署及所屬老屋修繕五千萬元提出專案報告經同意後使的凍資提案委員黃仁等人內政部老屋修繕預算"},{"start":23274.949,"end":23283.906,"text":"五十億元凍結該項預算五千萬元提出專案報告同意後 使得凍資提案委員書 興權等人"},{"start":23286.437,"end":23310.545,"text":"二十四案內政部編列老宅延壽機能復興計畫增進高齡族群居住安全建議應參考地方政府之整建維護方案研議將電梯或其他類型升降設備納入方案搭配宣傳輔導機制協助住戶整合提案委員吳佩義等人內政部國土管理署"},{"start":23317.017,"end":23336.37,"text":"老宅延壽機能復興計劃系公寓大廈管理委員會或全部所有權人同意並提出申請為原則會提升相關計劃達成率應延逸降低同意並提出申請之門檻或相關經濟措施提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":23341.85,"end":23367.785,"text":"編列老屋修繕項目辦理老宅延壽機能復興計畫為實務上各所有全人對修繕意見整合不易可能導致本計畫推動困難建起內政部國土署提出具體協助整合居民意見之規劃書面報告提案委員張宏祿等人二十七案國土管理署及所屬編列強化國土防衛能量"},{"start":23370.194,"end":23383.519,"text":"辦理公有避難空間及設備改善計劃行政業務與審查及輔導業務費一千五百萬元三減該項費用三百萬元提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":23385.069,"end":23412.973,"text":"二十八案 凍結內政部主管警政署及所屬一千萬元提出專案報告經同意後 使得凍結提案委員黃仁等人內政部警政署及所屬向下改善公有建築物防火避難空間及設備編列預算五億元凍結該項預算百分之十提出專案書面報告使得凍結提案委員黃仁等人三十案"},{"start":23415.495,"end":23417.356,"text":"內政部消防署及所屬預算數15億8250萬元凍結該項預算10%提出書面報告後 使得動之提案委員吳麗華等人"},{"start":23436.323,"end":23453,"text":"31 案 內政部消防署提出書面報告具體說明未來如何平衡防災室性別比例如何擴大女性及多元族群參與的策略進階防災室培訓規劃計畫提案委員張雅玲等人"},{"start":23454.541,"end":23468.892,"text":"三十二案 建起內政部消防署針對高危險及偏鄉地區優先辦理防災協作中心及村里防救災緊急衛生設備建置方案之書面報告提案委員鍾嘉斌等人"},{"start":23471.554,"end":23489.56,"text":"建起內政部消防署針對辦理防災協作中心及村裡防救災緊急衛生設備建置之裝置裝設備分類及其妥善維持方案提出書面報告提案委員鍾嘉斌等人"},{"start":23492.504,"end":23521.203,"text":"國防部所屬強化國土防衛能量凍結預算五千萬元提出專案報告同意後使得凍結提案委員輸精全三十五案凍結國防部主管國防部所屬強化國土防衛能量五千萬元提出專案報告同意後使得凍結提案委員黃仁等人三十六案國防部"},{"start":23522.924,"end":23530.051,"text":"主管國防部所屬強化國土防衛能量預算數426億4655萬4千元凍結5千萬元提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":23539.88,"end":23552.504,"text":"三十七案國防部所屬強化國土防衛能量凍結該預算五千萬元提出專案報告經同意後使得動之提案委員蘇清泉三十八案"},{"start":23555.585,"end":23571.496,"text":"三檢 三十八案 國防部三檢戰備營用水七億元軍車集用場整修三十億元合計三點三十八萬元 三十八億元提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":23576.929,"end":23596.853,"text":"三十九案三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍司令部之建立長效期飲用水建制案業務費七億八千九百四十二萬元提案委員馬文君等人"},{"start":23600.131,"end":23615.663,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍後備部隊經理庫存設備設施擴增案業務費396萬元設備投資向下1254萬元提案委員馬文君等人"},{"start":23632.367,"end":23640.749,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍各營區軍車鋼棚整建工程案業務費14億9354萬元提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍後勤部隊等167處庫"},{"start":23659.955,"end":23662.947,"text":"除色濕整修案所需業務費"},{"start":23666.666,"end":23681.373,"text":"設備及投資費共計13億元提案委員馬英軍等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍後勤部隊等167處庫儲設備整修案所需業務費設備及投資費合計1億0767萬元提案委員馬英軍等人"},{"start":23693.075,"end":23706.082,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍司令部斗範平時距離靶場整修工程所需業務費"},{"start":23708.615,"end":23726.53,"text":"一千萬元提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部部訓部游泳池整修工程所需業務費三千六百一十四萬元提案委員馬文君等人"},{"start":23727.971,"end":23750.19,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部部訓部游泳池整修工程業務費兩千萬元提案委員馬文君三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部金融刺口徑靶場整修工程業務費八百萬元提案委員馬文君"},{"start":23751.171,"end":23778.092,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍洪財臨時距離靶場整修工程所需業務費及設備投資費合計3300萬元提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部斗範平時距離靶場整修工程業務費1500萬元提案委員馬文君等人"},{"start":23782.498,"end":23792.38,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部馬防部戰備坑道防火防毒門整建工程所需業務費"},{"start":23796.888,"end":23809.998,"text":"1396萬元提案委員馬英軍等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍司令部凌雲港時距離靶場整修工程所需業務費1500萬元提案委員馬英軍等人"},{"start":23814.923,"end":23824.457,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關司令部校準部420訓練場整修工程所需業務費"},{"start":23826.753,"end":23853.032,"text":"四千四百八十七萬元提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量有關陸軍司令部校準部戰車刺口徑把車訓練設施改善工程及校準部訓練場設施改業務費一億五千七百零六萬元提案委員馬文君等人"},{"start":23854.358,"end":23879.868,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量入軍司令部教準部金湯營區教學設施整修工程業務費3500萬元提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量入軍司令部教準部教學大樓暨砲塔教室訓練設施改善工程業務費"},{"start":23881.269,"end":23906.996,"text":"六千三百七十五萬元提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量司令部陸軍司令部校準部校準部步兵港飛行訓練場整建工程業務費一億三千萬元提案委員馬文君等人"},{"start":23908.135,"end":23933.502,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部八軍團有限電教練場整修工程業務費一千三百萬元提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部八軍團訓練道路整修工程業務費四千六百一十八萬元提案委員馬文君等人"},{"start":23934.762,"end":23942.39,"text":"三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部農林營區自走流彈砲車地平訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練場訓練"},{"start":23961.088,"end":23985.648,"text":"雙連坡十距離 靶場隔音牆際遮擋板整修工程三千萬元 提案委員馬文君等人三檢國防部強化國土防衛能量陸軍司令部太平里十距離靶場整修工程所需業務費 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資安防護等費用三減其向下業務費兩億元提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":24466.149,"end":24476.493,"text":"凍結國防部主管國防部所屬提升資通作業環境及設備五千萬元提出專案報告同意後使得凍資提案委員黃仁國防部所屬提升資通作業環境及設備凍結該項預算五千萬元提出專案報告經同意後使得凍資委員蘇清泉等人提案"},{"start":24493.94,"end":24517.269,"text":"鑒於因應國際情勢強化經濟鑒於行政院系以具緊急重大急迫為由國防部應要所屬各單位凡有所屬工程鋼棚之案件及工作項目需由軍備局律定個案工程鋼棚項目之規格及要求"},{"start":24518.593,"end":24524.269,"text":"使相關案件建置後符合國土防衛任性質要求提案委員馬雲金等人"},{"start":24526.17,"end":24550.636,"text":"鑑於國防部及所屬提出大量有關火炮彈藥庫設施整修件工程及採購相關附屬設施之需求國防部業管連參應與各單位工程設計採購作業之規劃招標權先行下令相關訓令要求所屬各單位遵循"},{"start":24551.636,"end":24568.621,"text":"符合強化國土防衛任性之要求提案委員馬雲君等人要求國防部應導入資安事件管理及自動回應技術在雲端運用上應建立資安標準雲端環境提案委員吳佩義等人"},{"start":24571.021,"end":24590.394,"text":"要求國防部建立作戰分區指揮所機動式攝伏器並搭配資通設備等為避免離島通訊中斷持續加強長程微波通訊系統對老舊或寬頻不足資通站台升級更新提案委員吳佩義等人"},{"start":24591.335,"end":24618.876,"text":"要求國防部於各重要軍事據點部署新式衛星通訊洽談租賃新式衛星增加部署地面接收端點提案委員吳佩奕等人建請國防部定期以予以理解之方式向社會大眾公開說明經費使用進度與效益評估提交說明報告提案委員李昆成等人"},{"start":24620.495,"end":24642.596,"text":"有鑒於近年國軍支領網路戰略勤務加擠之人員顯示編列與實際需求存在落差呈現遞減趨勢相關單位應避免人力下滑趨勢影響整體戰力建請國防部提出書面報告提案委員李坤誠等人"},{"start":24644.884,"end":24669.711,"text":"建請國防部針對國軍在警戒範圍確定後稅於村里領長辦公室設置變息式衛星訊號接收器或戰術無線電以立中央應變中心直接向其發出撤離通知之可行性3個月內提出書面報告提案委員鍾嘉斌等人"},{"start":24671.8,"end":24696.887,"text":"凍結財政部主管國庫署提供企業金融支持五千萬元提案委員黃仁等人國庫署編列國庫署編列普發現金向下有業務費三減企業務費五千萬元提案委員賴世寶等人財政部主管"},{"start":24702.228,"end":24710.272,"text":"財政部主管媒體及政策媒體政策及業務宣導費1350萬元3減50%提案委員賴世寶等人凍結財政部國庫署普發現金"},{"start":24732.659,"end":24760.118,"text":"一千萬元提案委員賴慧媛等人財政部普發現金各式相關之詐騙訊息及層出不窮造成民眾困擾建請國庫署會同相關單位針對本項經費如何因應普發現金詐騙提出書面報告以確保民眾權益不受損提案委員張宏祿等人教育部主管"},{"start":24765.975,"end":24786.991,"text":"200億元減劣該項預算40億元並凍結該項預算30%提案委員賴世保等人教育部強化高等教育人才培育輔助大學校院延攬及留任出聘教師簽約金及留任獎金預算數80億元"},{"start":24789.232,"end":24792.675,"text":"凍結10%提案委員郭國文等人教育部強化高等教育人才培育輔助大專院校精進校務經營補助預算數65億凍結10%提案委員郭國文等人"},{"start":24811.993,"end":24821.563,"text":"凍結教育部主管教育部強化高等教育人才賠預五千萬元提專案報告經同意後 使得凍資提案委員黃仁等人教育部教育教育部本年預算凍結五千萬元"},{"start":24838.075,"end":24853.546,"text":"提出專案報告後 使得動之 經同意後 使得動之 提案委員 蘇星泉等人教育部強化高等教育人才培訓預算200億元 凍結1000萬元 提案委員 賴會員等人"},{"start":24862.526,"end":24887.109,"text":"教育部強化高等教育人才培育預算200億元凍結1000萬元提案委員賴慧園等人在延攬國際人才及支持青壯世代學者方面請教育部就相關制度進行全面檢討規劃調整提出相關規劃報告提案委員張雅琳等人"},{"start":24889.026,"end":24903.976,"text":"請教育部在執行培育產業所需人才與產學合作方案時應同步設計校園統戰滲透風險防範措施確保高等教育發展與國家安全並行提案委員張雅玲委員等人"},{"start":24907.378,"end":24932.951,"text":"教育部編列強化高等教育人才培育兩百億元三檢強化高等教育人才培育五億元提案委員賴世保等人教育部第一幕強化高等教育人才培育業務費編列六千萬元提案凍結百分之五十百分之五十提案委員謝龍介委員等人"},{"start":24937.133,"end":24955.431,"text":"要求教育部邀集公司立基層教師代表教師工會等研討研商定地合一之教師評鑑制度支持教師專業發展並將上開會議記錄研商報告提交立法院提案委員范雲等人"},{"start":24957.287,"end":24983.084,"text":"要求教育部比照性別預算模式建立無障礙預算統計制度公開統計規劃統一之填報表格與作業原則並於年度結束後會診送教育部及相關措施規劃書面報告提交立法院提案委員范雲經濟部主管"},{"start":24984.599,"end":24989.982,"text":"460億元凍結30%提案委員賴世寶等人經濟部提升產業競爭力預算數16億5000萬元凍結10%提出報告同意後使得動之提案委員吳麗華等人"},{"start":25007.642,"end":25013.877,"text":"動輒經濟部主管經濟部提升產業競爭率五千萬元提出專案報告同意後使得動之提案委員黃仁經濟部"},{"start":25017.074,"end":25036.794,"text":"編列協助企業開拓多元市場三億元三減其向下業務費五千萬元提案委員賴世保等人經濟部協助企業開拓多元市場預算三億元凍結一千萬元提案委員賴會員等人"},{"start":25042.49,"end":25056.859,"text":"請經濟部透過政策整合協助廠商以大帶小參與國際展覽讓更多台灣企業能走向國際市場有效降低對等關稅帶來的衝擊提案委員蔡奕宇等人"},{"start":25060.001,"end":25084.594,"text":"經濟部提高廠商餐長補助金額一個月內提出書面報告送立法院提案委員蔡奕宇等人請經濟部主動提出相關產業支持措施針對無薪假人員應提供輔導及技術培訓強化我國產業整體競爭力提案委員蔡奕宇等人"},{"start":25087.102,"end":25097.458,"text":"建請經濟部研議加強引導受美國關稅政策影響之傳統製造業及中小企業投入高質化產品技術研發對國內產業及勞動市場之影響評估提案委員黃婕等人"},{"start":25103.208,"end":25121.891,"text":"建議經濟部提供企業金融支持預算一百一十億元為本案措施繁多金額龐大分配質詢機制複雜亦需檢驗是否存在制度性障礙請經濟部提出說明報告提案委員李昆成等人"},{"start":25124.983,"end":25142.013,"text":"晶片產能55分的說法對國內重要關鍵技術產業之影響建請經濟部提送逐項揭露各項措施之經費規劃執行期程及效益評估等完整書面報告提案委員李坤誠等人"},{"start":25144.275,"end":25161.037,"text":"更留台灣佈局全球前提下請經濟部檢討國家政策如何協助廠商佈局產業聚落模式之書面報告提案委員李昆成等人為確保在緊急時刻不受"},{"start":25163.655,"end":25186.116,"text":"建請衛福部研議依據國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護指導綱要將醫藥物流納入國家關鍵基礎設施範疇之評估報告提案委員李昆成等人要求經濟部整合生化與有盟國家"},{"start":25187.843,"end":25205.257,"text":"經貿合作計畫建立台灣有盟國家經貿合作年度行動計畫列出雙邊合作專案產業論壇等項目建立成果資料庫與投資成效每年提報立法院委員賴銳榮等人提案"},{"start":25211.127,"end":25231.642,"text":"要求經濟部強化出口貨品來源驗證原產地證明及高風險名單追蹤管理會同財政部官務署及檢調單位建立跨部會資料共享查核機制每半年向立法院報告監督與法規研究成果提案委員賴日榮等人"},{"start":25233.362,"end":25252.763,"text":"美国对关税冲击经济不应中整建立明确KPI强化与驻外管处外贸协会合作锁定德国日本印度及东南亚市场于年度报告中揭露受补助产业分布收益厂商加速提案委员赖瑞龙等人"},{"start":25254.578,"end":25269.831,"text":"經濟部應設立傳統產業金融支持專案基金與中小企業信用保證基金合作建立專案保證制度每半年向立法院報告專案基金執行情形提案委員賴瑞榮等人"},{"start":25272.116,"end":25292.51,"text":"因應美國課徵高而關稅,經濟部應建立傳產技術升級專案補助,針對高雄等受級產業從寬認定補助資格,增列中小企業研發補助基金。經濟部應每半年向立法院提出執行成果報告,提案委員賴日榮等人。"},{"start":25294.211,"end":25309.317,"text":"台電長久以來承擔穩定電價強化電網保障民生等職責經濟部應積極評估擬拒因應政策提出書面報告送交立法院提案委員林益謹等人"},{"start":25311.004,"end":25320.532,"text":"台美關稅談判及產業支持方案工業類別僅有工具機產業等九類產業請經濟部於一個月內將完整之個別產業影響評估公開於前述網站提案委員張啟凱等人"},{"start":25333.644,"end":25347.849,"text":"請經濟部依據本特別條例第六條第四項按計滾動式檢討針對不同工業中個別產業之相應支持方案納入工作計畫送立法院備查提案委員張祺凱等人"},{"start":25351.731,"end":25373.648,"text":"請經濟部依據本特別條例第六條第四項對在美關稅談判衝擊前涉入貿易或其他調查之個別企業規劃政府予以法律諮詢等各類協助並送立法院被查與網站公開提案委員張祺凱等人"},{"start":25375.956,"end":25404.175,"text":"我國今年上半年經濟成長6.75%優於預期為受美國關稅政策影響致船廠貨品競爭力下降消費者信心指數仍處低點提出相關對策使普發現金每人一萬元儘早投入消費市場擴大內需振興經濟效益提案委員蘇巧慧等人"},{"start":25407.043,"end":25418.749,"text":"請經濟部提出加強引導構建產業投入技術升級書面報告提案委員邱志偉等人請經濟部提出對"},{"start":25423.109,"end":25443.918,"text":"有限於印度進口俄國石油遭美國施行刺激關稅凸顯我國與俄國任何往來都應更加謹慎請經濟部提出對俄石化產品進口政策全面檢討並據此修訂相關規範提案委員邱志偉等人"},{"start":25446.178,"end":25458.896,"text":"美方推動對等關稅措施汽車產業、通訊電子製造業、機械設備工具、機具等均為我國重要民生出口支柱政府因"},{"start":25461.883,"end":25478.254,"text":"分別提供妥適的補助與協助方案相關資訊應該公開透明請經濟部會同相關部會提出專案報告提案委員徐欣盈等人針對我國對蘇美鋼鐵鋁以及鋼鋁衍生品加增至232條款"},{"start":25487.751,"end":25508.212,"text":"關稅提高至百分之五十嚴重衝擊我國相關產業請提出不包含普遍性對企業之措施及相關衍生產業之補助輔導優惠措施請經濟部提出書面報告提案委員郭國文等人"},{"start":25511.513,"end":25528.183,"text":"請經濟部提出我國對於日韓歐洲國家盟友之半導體戰略與產業合作深化空間之書面報告提案委員郭國文等人經濟部產業發展署提升產業競爭率預算數203億5000萬元凍結5%提出報告同意後使得動之提案委員吳麗華等人"},{"start":25536.909,"end":25544.936,"text":"凍結產業發展署五千萬元專案報告同意後使得凍資提案委員黃仁等人產業發展署提升產業競爭力其中業務費三減"},{"start":25551.866,"end":25570.575,"text":"2000萬元提案委員賴世寶等人國際貿易署編列協助企業開拓多元市場其向下三檢業務費3000萬元提案委員賴世寶等人經濟部國際貿易署協助廠商調整海外佈局措施"},{"start":25572.356,"end":25597.975,"text":"預算數70億元 凍結5%提出報告經同意後 使得動之提案委員吳麗華等人凍結經濟部主管 國際貿易署協助企業開拓國營市場5000萬元提出專案報告同意後 使得動之提案委員黃仁經濟部國際貿易署深化與有盟國家經貿合作預算數10億元 凍結1000萬元提案委員賴慧媛等人"},{"start":25604.959,"end":25624.725,"text":"請經濟部國際貿易署為健全貿易秩序維護國家產業利益持續強化加強強化違規轉運查核小組效能嚴加防堵洗產地情勢發生提案委員黃婕等人"},{"start":25629.228,"end":25652.237,"text":"請經濟部國際貿易署針對生化與盟友國家經貿合作資金費提出各個國家預計生化之產業經費配比提出書面報告提案委員郭國文等人商業發展署編列提升產業競爭力其向下業務費三減一千萬元提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":25656.307,"end":25678.064,"text":"凍結經濟部主管商業發展署第一幕向下提升商業服務費營運效能五千萬元提案委員黃仁等人經濟部商業發展署提升產業競爭率預算數二十六億五千萬元凍結一千萬元提案委員賴慧媛等人"},{"start":25680.309,"end":25691.614,"text":"經濟部商業發展署提升商業服務業營運效能預算數25億元凍結10%提出報告經同意後使得動之提案委員吳立華等人"},{"start":25695.618,"end":25717.35,"text":"請經濟部商業屬於既有補助之外令行研議維護方面之補助對象為獲得近年AI智慧化數位化相關補助方案之場域使過去推動成就能夠延續妥善營運擴展政府預算的整體效益提案委員吳佩義等人"},{"start":25719.111,"end":25748.251,"text":"中小及新創企業署編列提升企業金融支持向下三檢企業務費兩千萬元提案委員賴世寶等人經濟部中小企業及新創企業署提供企業金融支持要求經濟部提出建立中小信保基金成效評估機制避免金融風險轉嫁為財政呆帳之書面報告提案委員邱志偉等人"},{"start":25750.513,"end":25771.594,"text":"勞動部社會保險支出預祝全民健康保險基金及勞工保險基金預祝勞工保險基金100億元凍結50%經同意後使得凍之提案委員黃仁等人建請勞動部參考教育部"},{"start":25773.038,"end":25802.618,"text":"青年署青少年生涯探索号计划推动经验针对弱势禁欲未成年劳动者强化职场安全宣导与监督机制研议增列民间团体参与机制与专业人力支持经费以上请劳动部具体提出执行方案包括预算配置对象范围作业作及合作机制提案委员林月琴等人"},{"start":25805.04,"end":25823.817,"text":"請勞動部應簡述公布各項安定就業措施之明確申請辦法與審核標準並簡化程序針對女性勞工比例偏高的產業加強宣導應將性別影響評估納入本特別預算措施針對上述"},{"start":25825.338,"end":25844.385,"text":"要求提出報告提案委員張雅玲等人請勞動部提出具體可行之財務改革方案包括保費率調整政府撥補機制常態化給付結構合理化等"},{"start":25845.565,"end":25861.301,"text":"應加強資訊透明 定期公開基金財務狀況與改進進度請勞動部針對以上要求提出精進改善報告提案委員張雅玲等人"},{"start":25866.621,"end":25882.181,"text":"有建於支援青年就業計劃編列15億元其餘基金編列預算有重複編列與資源重疊之疑慮請勞動部提出書面報告委員李昆城等人提案"},{"start":25884.964,"end":25901.972,"text":"請勞動部提出完整媒體宣傳規劃與預期成效評估投放渠道成效衡量方式之書面報告提案委員李昆成等人請勞動部依據本特別條例第六條第四項研議有關"},{"start":25903.332,"end":25928.55,"text":"補助涵蓋因關稅衝擊減班造成勞保投保差距之保費差額補貼送立法院備查提案委員張啟凱等人請勞動部依據本條例託為說明前接經費編列原因延期有無必要調整或甄列納入工作計畫送立法院備查提案委員張啟凱等人見勞動部"},{"start":25933.401,"end":25960.801,"text":"針對如何防度雇主未如實通報減班休息情形針對不同產業類別如何協助企業辦理員工在職培訓與衛生福利部合作研議是否針對受影響勞工輔導預先規劃因應可能出現之大規模解雇潮提出書面報告提案委員賴會員等人"},{"start":25965.135,"end":25976.538,"text":"為確保特別預算能兼具短期長期政策功效要求勞動部必須落實補助與執訊綁定並公開受衝擊行業清單建立滾動式檢討機制定期公開執行成果提案委員徐欣穎等人"},{"start":25986.348,"end":26003.526,"text":"要求勞動部於一個月內推動就業安定基金建立成果型KPI包括到職率、留任率等及創造就業成本、建置退場、調整補助機制提出專題報告提案委員徐欣穎等人"},{"start":26005.702,"end":26030.742,"text":"勞動部因應關稅衝擊規劃推動多項加強支持勞工安定就業措施為確保相關措施落實執行請勞動部於115年至117年每年2月底前完成前一年度制成果報告送立法院提案委員劉建國等人勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬"},{"start":26032.327,"end":26052.455,"text":"支持勞工安定就業預算數150億3減40億提案委員謝龍介等人勞動力發展署及所屬編列支持勞工安定就業基金3減其向下業務費3800萬元提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":26058.745,"end":26080.397,"text":"勞動部支持勞工安定就業基金協助初次尋職青年就業等預算15億元凍結10%提出報告後使得凍資提案委員郭國文等人凍結支持勞工安定就業基金150億元預算資30%提案委員賴世寶等人"},{"start":26086.93,"end":26094.118,"text":"勞動部主管勞動力發展署級所屬支持勞工安定就業預算150億元凍結5000萬元提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":26105.775,"end":26116.039,"text":"勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬支持勞工安定就業預算數150億元凍結1000萬元提案委員賴會員等人勞動力發展署及所屬支持勞工安定就業基金150億元凍結1000萬元提案委員賴會員等人農業部主管190億元"},{"start":26136.789,"end":26141.915,"text":"凍結該預算20%專案報告經同意後 使得凍資提案委員賴世保委員等人凍結農業部主管5000萬元專案報告經同意後 使得凍資提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":26153.534,"end":26179.663,"text":"農業部第一幕強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場預算數180億元凍結5%提出報告後使得動資委員伍麗華等人所農業部強化金融支持提升產業競爭力協助開拓多元市場獎勵業者拓展美國高端外銷市場"},{"start":26181.071,"end":26188.894,"text":"預算44億9950萬元凍結10%提出報告後使得動之提案委員郭國文等人凍結農業部主管農業部強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場5000萬元提出專案報告後使得動之提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":26209.251,"end":26217.973,"text":"農業部強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場預算數180億元凍結10%提案委員賴會員等人農業部強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場預算數180億元凍結1000萬元提案委員賴會員等人"},{"start":26237.232,"end":26255.238,"text":"農業部強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場預算180億元凍結1000萬元提案委員賴會員等人農業部強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場預算數180億元凍結1000萬元提案委員賴會員等人農業部"},{"start":26262.68,"end":26274.256,"text":"請農業部積極辦理國內外展覽與行銷活動強化台灣農漁產品品牌形象及曝光率降低關稅衝擊提案委員蔡奕瑜等人"},{"start":26276.164,"end":26291.314,"text":"建起農業部按照產業所受影響程度競爭國家情況妥善運用我國水產品產銷履歷與食品安全優勢託你提高美國市場占有率策略提案委員黃婕等人"},{"start":26296.146,"end":26313.204,"text":"美國克珍對等關稅對國內農漁業之衝擊建請農業部提送逐項揭露各項措施之經費規劃執行期程及效益評估完整書面報告提案委員李昆成等人"},{"start":26316.76,"end":26345.869,"text":"農業部規劃成立農糧安全推動小組為確保糧食安全及緊急供應穩定農業部應整合國家層級糧食安全體系強化跨部會聯防建立中央地方民間糧食調度聯系機制與經濟部國防部及行政院災防辦建立糧食安全聯防機制每年檢討並提報立法院提案委員賴瑞榮等人"},{"start":26348.208,"end":26371.189,"text":"要求農業部推動農業加工業導入AI自動化及智慧檢測技術協助農民團體建立合作生產供應鏈整合機制推動ESG管理制度等每年檢討並向立法院提出書面報告提案委員賴日榮等人要求農業部推動台灣農產品"},{"start":26375.017,"end":26387.718,"text":"臺灣農業品牌國際行銷計畫跨部會合作建立明確績效指標每年度預算執行報告中揭露作為次年預算執行制參考提案委員賴瑞榮等人"},{"start":26389.522,"end":26402.84,"text":"要求農業部與農業金融機構合作強化農業信用保證基金運用每季檢討融資成效每年度公佈相關成效評估委員賴瑞榮等人提案"},{"start":26404.562,"end":26427.296,"text":"要求農業部設立台灣農業形象館與海外展售中心鼓勵農企業參與國際展銷推動具產銷履歷永續標章低碳認證等高品質農產品進入高端市場並於每年度提報市場拓展成效及外銷金額提案委員賴瑞榮等人要求農業部優先輔導出口重點產區農會等"},{"start":26435.652,"end":26453.163,"text":"或更新冷凍冷藏設施強化冷鏈溫控監測與數位追溯建立農漁產品外銷冷鏈示範區並於每半年向立法院提出執行進度及效益報告提案委員賴瑞榮等人為維護國人身體健康及國內農業永續產品請農業部提供"},{"start":26463.202,"end":26484.537,"text":"農業永續發展請農業部提供美國進口農產品標示問題之處理說明美國農產品之分年採購規劃包括採購品項採購數量等等資料於一百一十四年十二月三十一日前三十一日前提供完整報告與立法院研議採購期間針對國內同品項農產品之產銷計劃實施送立法院備查並公開於網站提案委員張祺凱等人"},{"start":26495.763,"end":26519.191,"text":"請農業部針對國內農產品加工之研發提升工作加速推動以利拓展出口及因應農產品開放進口衝擊避免多元循環經濟利用的方式不當方法處理等相關情勢將農產品研發納入工作計畫送立法院被查提案委員張祺凱等人會降第一"},{"start":26521.079,"end":26534.487,"text":"蘭花產業生產及出口成本請農業部於三個月內針對除補助措施外如何於技術面上協助蘭花產業降低成本提出書面報告提案委員賴會員等人"},{"start":26537.782,"end":26560.196,"text":"建起農業部針對協助開拓美國以外之海外市場積極推動多元出口國布局提升國內台灣調資國際產銷旅率認證制度防範中國無國漁局鱸魚混充國產魚等事項提出書面報告提案委員賴會員等人"},{"start":26563.632,"end":26590.281,"text":"請農業部針對我國糧食質給率之提升目標與執行方法為題中整耕地利用與相關政策工具之可行性提出具體策略短中長期之期程書面報告提案委員王世堅等人我國目前到米進口採行關稅配額制度近期台美對等關稅協商中將對我國農民生計與糧食安全造成重大衝擊"},{"start":26593.345,"end":26619.256,"text":"要求農業部會同相關部會提出糧食安全與農業衝擊防線專案報告提案委員徐信英等人凍結農業部主管漁業署及所屬強化國土防衛能量一千萬元提案委員黃仁等人凍結農業部主管農糧署及所屬強化國土防衛能量一千萬元提出專案報告後使得動之提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":26621.045,"end":26629.698,"text":"衛生福利部益助全民健康保險基金及勞工保險基金益助全民健康保險基金預算數200億凍結5%提出報告後使得凍資提案委員吳麗華等人"},{"start":26635.976,"end":26653.195,"text":"凍結衛生福利部主管衛生福利部益助全民健康保險基金五千萬元提案提出專案報告時的動資提案委員黃仁等人衛生福利部第二幕預算數六十一億九千七百七十九萬凍結百分之十提出書面報告提案委員伍麗華等人"},{"start":26654.577,"end":26666.97,"text":"建請衛生福利部於兩個月內提送逐項揭露各項措施之經費規劃執行期程及效益評估等完整書面報告提案委員李坤澄等人建請衛福部邀集行政院"},{"start":26675.869,"end":26695.094,"text":"災害防救辦公室內政部NCC交通部等相關單位研議獨居老人緊急救護裝置連線及服務模式中增加緊急災害應變等功能之可行性並將研議結果書面報告提交立法院提案委員王振旭等人"},{"start":26695.914,"end":26715.09,"text":"建請衛福部邀集相關單位針對獨居老人制政策需求提升平均餘命與降低不健康餘命進行相應之調查提問及宣導事項之盤整將跨部會研議結論提交書面報告於立法院提案委員王振旭等人"},{"start":26717.252,"end":26736.369,"text":"建議衛福部因緊述研議如何全面將裕田市強新增納入緊急救護與醫療體系中持續提升國內緊急醫療照護品質並針對各種會議進行研議提出書面報告提案委員林怡瑾等人"},{"start":26737.746,"end":26755.419,"text":"鑒於近期各地層出不窮之詐領低收入戶及中低收入戶補助案件請衛福部提出具體檢討報告以確保社會救助資源用於真正需要的弱勢族群恢復制度公信力提案委員王世堅等人"},{"start":26758.507,"end":26773.34,"text":"為確保國人用藥安全與健保制度允訓請衛福部提出經濟方案書面報告就價格制度面、供應韌性面、財務結構面提案委員邱志偉等人"},{"start":26776.304,"end":26797.811,"text":"衛生福利部為確保補助能發揮長期效益並避免重複投資要求行政院研議將所有接受政府補助的醫院核心醫療資訊系統必須採用統一區塊鏈與開放標準具體做法與成果提出專題報告提案委員徐欣穎等人"},{"start":26800.068,"end":26828.437,"text":"為有效防範高齡孤獨所引發之治安漏洞要求衛福部提出高齡孤獨與治安風險防治專題報告提案委員徐欣穎等人為使特別預算能精準投入有效執行要求衛福部於一個月內掌握全國獨居老人基本資訊完整造冊關懷訪視人力缺口提出精進措施之專題報告提案委員徐欣穎等人"},{"start":26838.482,"end":26865.282,"text":"未建立可長可久之支持體系要求衛福部嚴禮避免弱勢補助制度斷崖穩定財源規劃與消費者物價指數連動之調整機制提出專題報告提案委員徐欣雲等人為使社會福利資源能有效及潛在弱勢對象"},{"start":26867.458,"end":26879.088,"text":"利用原要求衛福部就弱勢生活補助的覆蓋率與邊緣戶缺口提出補救路徑與執行規劃報告提案委員 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使得凍資提案委員謝龍介等人"},{"start":27147.429,"end":27169.629,"text":"凍結海洋委員會主管海巡署及所屬強化國土防衛能量提升海域立體增群量能五千萬元提案委員黃仁等人凍結海洋委員會主管海巡署及所屬強化國土防衛能量強化海巡基地與設施韌性五千萬元提案委員黃仁等人"},{"start":27171.775,"end":27194.606,"text":"建議海巡署與檢察機關各行政部門電資通訊產業建立即時有效聯繫運儲管道參考國外經驗加強我國法制持續補強相關設施包括船隻等持續就海欄安全進行國際交流與合作提案委員吳佩儀"},{"start":27197.133,"end":27218.579,"text":"有建於海巡署辦理旋翼型無人飛行載具事辦計畫累計執行率長期低於一成原建起海巡署就計畫效益檢討及未來執行可行性提出書面報告提案委員李坤誠等人"},{"start":27220.182,"end":27240.597,"text":"海巡署為因應目前海岸海能量不足困境最短時間內在全國海岸完善建置紅外線熱影像系統等措施建請海巡署提送各項措施經費規劃執行期程效益評估順便報告提案委員李昆城等人"},{"start":27242.699,"end":27259.239,"text":"請海巡署及所屬進行技術需求之盤點提出技術升級之展望檢討當前我國無人機與海巡任務上至缺書提出書面報告提案委員林一錦等人海委會國家海洋研究院"},{"start":27262.933,"end":27276.844,"text":"建立跨部會機制共享機制立立國防部海巡署中央氣象署相關機關及時運用提升國家海域安全任性提案委員黃婕等人宣讀完畢"}]}},{"id":"163963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0d4ffca840f93c6112b1f00580874b155441e0052ed6558bb6df76adf96966f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"14:44:39 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我剛剛看到一個最新的訊息是這個聯合報他在剛剛1點57分發的是說華爾街日報表示冰推顯示台灣天然氣庫僅存11天中國只要透過檢疫就可以逼台灣限電"},{"start":47.328,"end":68.62,"text":"我想這個題目就是台灣在面對中國封鎖的時候到底我們在油料在戰備物資能夠撐多久一直以來像剛剛有質詢的這個民眾黨的張祺凱委員又或者是像國民黨的朱立倫主席在辦這個所謂公投的時候也曾經都一直的存疑"},{"start":70.021,"end":86.895,"text":"其實這一次我們在有關於這一次特別預算的時候我知道這個民眾黨國民黨在乎的都是要不要發一萬那麼其實在所有的預算當中除了財政部要不要發一萬發現金之外最重要也佔比例"},{"start":87.916,"end":106.485,"text":"有百分之二十點六的就是一千一百三十二億的國防任性那麼其實這個國防任性裡面又分三大點本席特別看了一下強化指管通訊任性這個當然就是擔心我們在"},{"start":107.915,"end":126.96,"text":"有關於真的遇到國家危難狀況的時候通訊會不會斷離但是有關於設備更新戰備厚實能量的部分建立彈藥庫有24億然後飲用水有20億然後這個有關於軍品跟保修工廠"},{"start":128.52,"end":146.916,"text":"庫族的設備就高達233億這個部分部長可不可以詳細的做解說因為現在我相信非常多在野黨的委員會認為就是為什麼不放在所謂的長年編的預算要放在"},{"start":147.697,"end":161.462,"text":"特別預算而且是在115年116年就要來做執行這個是不是扣合了在野黨的擔憂扣合了國際媒體的擔憂這些錢到底花在什麼地方 部長"},{"start":163.573,"end":178.848,"text":"特別預算當然特別強調韌性在國防的這一塊裡面在戰備用油的部分跟委員報告因為我們平時是自囤戰備用油但是我們為了敵情的威脅日趨嚴峻我們現在是規劃"},{"start":180.623,"end":202.675,"text":"規劃要向中油來採購32億多的戰備油料由中油代囤之後我們會因此會成為一個分散的囤儲會這樣的囤儲來多元供普的方式來強化我們儲油的一個韌性這一個我想維持儲油的韌性對我們的整個戰備的一個持續力是非常重要的"},{"start":203.555,"end":213.183,"text":"另外有關水的部分主要是在強調長效期的飲用水的儲量因為我們過去作業維持會裡面所規範的瓶裝飲用水是屬於一年期的"},{"start":220.129,"end":235.32,"text":"我們現在要囤儲的是5到7年期的參考日本的做法跟我們國內相關的產能我們可以生產這些5到7年期的飲用水這一方面可以降低經常退耗的品質另外一方面當然就是整個的飲用水的這樣子的一個韌性能夠建構"},{"start":238.742,"end":261.068,"text":"另外零附件的部分我們也要籌補因為我們一般的年度的作業維持會只能夠滿足裝備的妥善跟平時演訓的需求所以有餘裕才會補充戰備存量我們現在要快速的來補充戰備的需求量的話就要用特別預算來加強我們後勤的一個資深的韌性"},{"start":261.988,"end":285.136,"text":"好部長因為剛好有這樣的一個華爾街日報的新聞嘛質疑台灣目前只有11天天然氣的庫存所以說我可不可以具體的問因為時間到了只剩下最後一分鐘喔就是在我們的這個1132億加強國防韌性尤其是在設備更新後時戰備能量"},{"start":285.996,"end":299.706,"text":"在這兩年補上來之後我們可以延長多少一旦台灣面臨封鎖的時候我們是不是就可以再多撐一點可以多撐多久那這個部分部長能不能回應"},{"start":300.846,"end":326.991,"text":"我想大家關切人員的脆弱性都是在LNG就是屬於液化天然石油氣的部分液化天然氣的部分那在液化天然氣的部分的相關的供應當然我們也有我們的一些計畫存在但是這個我想沒有辦法公開來說明但是我們國軍內部所需要"},{"start":327.651,"end":356.241,"text":"作戰所需要的這些持有的這個儲備的能力這個我們需要快速的提升那這同樣也反映到我們的彈藥的囤儲我們新式的武器籌貨之後彈藥的囤儲我們也要加大整件我們的彈藥囤儲的設施然後讓我們的彈藥囤儲的這個能量整個能夠提升所以有油跟這個彈藥的這個大量的囤儲才能夠讓我們的這個支撐我們的戰變的能量到達一個我們認為可以的程度這樣子"},{"start":356.741,"end":373.32,"text":"好 所以言下之意就是我做個結論因為主席已經站起來那就是在有關於國防戰力提升的部分這個部分也許在野黨的委員磨刀霍霍但是又要馬兒好也要讓馬兒能夠有草吃我們才有能力來面對"},{"start":374.281,"end":400.684,"text":"中國或者是其他外在的威脅所以這個部分我讓部長已經講得很清楚了也希望明天在進行預算審查的時候在野黨的委員過去一直在質疑我們一旦面對封鎖我們要如何來做防衛的提升這個部分就是花在這裡也希望部長跟國防部要好好的做一個解釋跟說明不要讓在野黨委員磨刀霍霍就砍掉了那這等於是砍掉了我們的國防安全砍掉了我們的命脈"},{"start":401.607,"end":410.322,"text":"是 相關的個案可能需要明天才能夠來再跟委員做個指教這樣好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝林楚芸委員部長請回接下來請徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1835,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（14時44分）謝謝主席。各部會首長都辛苦了，有請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。我剛剛看到一個最新的訊息是聯合報在剛剛1點57分發的，是說華爾街日報表示，兵推顯示臺灣天然氣庫存僅能撐11天，中國只要透過檢疫就可以逼臺灣限電。我想這個題目，就是臺灣在面對中國封鎖的時候，到底我們在油料、戰備物資能夠撐多久？","一直以來，像剛剛有質詢的民眾黨的張啓楷委員，又或者是像國民黨的朱立倫主席在辦公投的時候也曾經一直存疑。其實在這次特別預算，我知道民眾黨、國民黨在乎的都是要不要發1萬，但是在所有預算當中除了財政部要不要發1萬現金之外，最重要、占比例有20.6%的就是1,132億的國防韌性。在這個國防韌性裡面又分三大點，本席特別看了一下，強化指管通訊韌性當然就是擔心我們真的遇到國家危難狀況的時候，通訊會不會斷離，但是有關於設備更新厚實戰備能量的部分，建立彈藥庫儲設施有24億、飲用水有20億，然後整建軍品、保修工廠庫儲設施就高達233億，針對這個部分，部長可不可以詳細解說？現在我相信有非常多在野黨委員會認為，為什麼不放在常年編的預算，而要放在特別預算，而且是在115年、116年就要執行？這個是不是扣合了在野黨的擔憂？扣合了國際媒體的擔憂？這些錢到底花在什麼地方？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：這個特別預算當然特別強調韌性，在國防這一塊裡面，有關戰備用油的部分跟委員報告，因為我們平時是自屯戰備用油，但是為了敵情威脅日趨嚴峻，我們現在是規劃要向中油採購三十二億多的戰備油料，由中油代屯之後，我們會因此成為一個分散屯儲、多元供補的方式，來強化我們儲油的韌性，我想維持儲油的韌性對我們整個戰備的持續力是非常重要的。","有關水的部分，主要是在強調長效期飲用水的儲量，因為我們過去作業維持費裡面所規範的瓶裝飲用水是屬於1年期的，我們現在要囤儲的是5到7年期的，這是參考日本的作法和我們國內相關的產能，我們可以生產這些5到7年期的飲用水。這一方面可以降低經常推耗的頻次，另外一方面當然就是整個飲用水的韌性能夠建構……"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["顧部長立雄：另外，零附件的部分，我們也要籌補，因為我們一般的年度作業維持費只能夠滿足裝備的妥善及平時演訓的需求，有餘裕才會補充戰備存量，所以我們現在要快速的補充戰備需求量的話，就要用這個特別預算來加強我們後勤支撐的韌性。"],["林委員楚茵：好，部長，因為剛好有這樣一個華爾街日報的新聞，質疑臺灣目前只有11天天然氣的庫存，所以我可不可以具體的問，因為時間到了，只剩下最後1分鐘，就是在我們這個1,132億加強國防韌性的預算，尤其是設備更新厚實戰備能量，在這兩年補上來之後，我們可以延長多少，一旦臺灣面臨封鎖的時候，我們是不是就可以再多撐一點，可以多撐多久，這個部分部長能不能回應？"],["顧部長立雄：我想大家關切的能源脆弱性都是在LNG，就是屬於液化天然氣的部分……"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["顧部長立雄：在液化天然氣的相關供應部分，當然我們也有我們的一些計畫存在，但是這個我想沒有辦法公開來說明……"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["顧部長立雄：但是國軍內部所需要、作戰所需要的這些石油的儲備能力，我們需要快速的提升，這同樣也反映到我們彈藥的囤儲，我們的新式武器籌獲有彈藥的囤儲，我們也要加大整建我們彈藥囤儲的設施，讓我們彈藥囤儲的能量整個能夠提升，有油和彈藥的大量囤儲才能夠支撐我們的戰備能量到達一個我們認為可以的程度。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以言下之意，我做個結論，因為主席已經站起來了，就是在有關於國防戰力提升的部分，也許在野黨的委員磨刀霍霍，但是要馬兒好，也要讓馬兒能夠有草吃，我們才有能力來面對中國或者是其他外在的威脅。這個部分，我已經讓部長講得很清楚了，在野黨的委員過去一直在質疑我們一旦面對封鎖要如何來做防衛的提升，這個部分就是花在這裡，也希望明天在進行預算審查的時候，部長和國防部要好好的解釋和說明，不要讓在野黨委員磨刀霍霍就砍掉了……"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["林委員楚茵：這等於是砍掉了我們的國防安全、砍掉了我們的命脈。"],["顧部長立雄：是，相關的個案可能希望明天再請委員做個指教。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員，部長請回。","接下來請許宇甄委員，許宇甄委員，許宇甄委員不在。","現在請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員不在。","再請陳超明委員，陳超明委員，陳超明委員不在。","報告委員會，今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢。","現在進行討論事項及臨時提案之處理，請議事人員宣讀今日審查預算案之審查項目，提案共計237案，宣讀完畢後休息，明日上午9時繼續開會處理預算提案，請各位列席的官員現在可以先行離席。","壹、預算數：","中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案","（114至116年度）","一、收入合計5,500億元","(一)歲入無列數","(二)債務之舉借1,056億元","（114年度1,056億元、115年度無列數、116年度無列數）","(三)移用以前年度歲計賸餘4,444億元","（114年度1,739億1,723萬9千元、115年度1,241億6,851萬8千元、116年度1,463億1,424萬3千元）","二、支出合計5,500億元","歲出5,500億元","（114年度2,795億1,723萬9千元、115年度1,241億6,851萬8千元、116年度1,463億1,424萬3千元）","（以上請參閱預算書第11頁）","第1款　內政部主管112億5,000萬元","（114年度520萬元、115年度57億1,966萬4千元、116年度55億2,513萬6千元）","第1項　國土管理署及所屬57億5,000萬元","（114年度200萬元、115年度28億7,400萬元、116年度28億7,400萬元）","第1目　加強照顧弱勢族群及提供關懷服務50億元","（114年度無列數、115年度25億元、116年度25億元）","第2目　強化國土防衛能量7億5,000萬元","（114年度200萬元、115年度3億7,400萬元、116年度3億7,400萬元）","第2項　警政署及所屬39億1,480萬元","（114年度無列數、115年度24億3,346萬4千元、116年度14億8,133萬6千元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量39億1,480萬元","（114年度無列數、115年度24億3,346萬4千元、116年度14億8,133萬6千元）","第3項　消防署及所屬15億8,520萬元","（114年度320萬元、115年度4億1,220萬元、116年度11億6,980萬元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量15億8,520萬元","（114年度320萬元、115年度4億1,220萬元、116年度11億6,980萬元）","（以上請參閱預算書第23至24頁）","第2款　國防部主管1,131億8,776萬4千元","（114年度無列數、115年度357億0,020萬7千元、116年度774億8,755萬7千元）","第1項　國防部2億1,123萬元","（114年度無列數、115年度1億6,623萬元、116年度4,500萬元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量2億1,123萬元","（114年度無列數、115年度1億6,623萬元、116年度4,500萬元）","第2項　國防部所屬1,129億7,653萬4千元","（114年度無列數、115年度355億3,397萬7千元、116年度774億4,255萬7千元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量426億4,655萬4千元","（114年度無列數、115年度203億6,904萬4千元、116年度222億7,751萬元）","第2目　提升資通作業環境及設備703億2,998萬元","（114年度無列數、115年度151億6,493萬3千元、116年度551億6,504萬7千元）","（以上請參閱預算書第25至26頁）","第3款　財政部主管2,500億元","（114年度2,402億元、115年度90億元、116年度8億元）","第1項　國庫署2,500億元","（114年度2,402億元、115年度90億元、116年度8億元）","第1目　提供企業金融支持140億元","（114年度42億元、115年度90億元、116年度8億元）","第2目　普發現金2,360億元","（114年度2,360億元、115年度無列數、116年度無列數）","（以上請參閱預算書第26至27頁）","第4款　教育部主管200億元","（114年度32億2,000萬元、115年度72億2,000萬元、116年度95億6,000萬元）","第1項　教育部200億元","（114年度32億2,000萬元、115年度72億2,000萬元、116年度95億6,000萬元）","第1目　強化高等教育人才培育200億元","（114年度32億2,000萬元、115年度72億2,000萬元、116年度95億6,000萬元）","（以上請參閱預算書第27頁）","第5款　經濟部主管460億元","（114年度78億4,400萬元、115年度231億3,765萬元、116年度150億1,835萬元）","第1項　經濟部19億5,000萬元","（114年度3億2,500萬元、115年度8億3,750萬元、116年度7億8,750萬元）","第1目　提升產業競爭力16億5,000萬元","（114年度3億元、115年度7億元、116年度6億5,000萬元）","第2目　協助企業開拓多元市場3億元","（114年度2,500萬元、115年度1億3,750萬元、116年度1億3,750萬元）","第2項　產業發展署203億5,000萬元","（114年度17億8,300萬元、115年度123億7,200萬元、116年度61億9,500萬元）","第1目　提升產業競爭力203億5,000萬元","（114年度17億8,300萬元、115年度123億7,200萬元、116年度61億9,500萬元）","第3項　國際貿易署97億元","（114年度4億8,500萬元、115年度43億8,500萬元、116年度48億3,000萬元）","第1目　協助企業開拓多元市場97億元","（114年度4億8,500萬元、115年度43億8,500萬元、116年度48億3,000萬元）","第4項　商業發展署26億5,000萬元","（114年度7億0,900萬元、115年度11億4,100萬元、116年度8億元）","第1目　提升產業競爭力26億5,000萬元","（114年度7億0,900萬元、115年度11億4,100萬元、116年度8億元）","第5項　中小及新創企業署113億5,000萬元","（114年度45億4,200萬元、115年度44億0,215萬元、116年度24億0,585萬元）","第1目　提供企業金融支持110億元","（114年度45億3,200萬元、115年度42億3,215萬元、116年度22億3,585萬元）","第2目　提升產業競爭力3億5,000萬元","（114年度1,000萬元、115年度1億7,000萬元、116年度1億7,000萬元）","（以上請參閱預算書第28至35頁）","第6款　勞動部主管250億元","（114年度30億2,713萬3千元、115年度161億0,272萬8千元、116年度58億7,013萬9千元）","第1項　勞動部100億元","（114年度無列數、115年度100億元、116年度無列數）","第1目　挹注全民健康保險基金及勞工保險基金100億元","（114年度無列數、115年度100億元、116年度無列數）","第2項　勞動力發展署及所屬150億元","（114年度30億2,713萬3千元、115年度61億0,272萬8千元、116年度58億7,013萬9千元）","第1目　支持勞工安定就業150億元","（114年度30億2,713萬3千元、115年度61億0,272萬8千元、116年度58億7,013萬9千元）","（以上請參閱預算書第35至36頁）","第7款　農業部主管190億元","（114年度47億6,996萬5千元、115年度76億2,351萬元、116年度66億0,652萬5千元）","第1項　農業部180億元","（114年度45億9,482萬5千元、115年度71億3,108萬元、116年度62億7,409萬5千元）","第1目　強化農業金融支持、提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場180億元","（114年度45億9,482萬5千元、115年度71億3,108萬元、116年度62億7,409萬5千元）","第2項　漁業署及所屬2億元","（114年度1,514萬元、115年度9,243萬元、116年度9,243萬元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量2億元","（114年度1,514萬元、115年度9,243萬元、116年度9,243萬元）","第3項　農糧署及所屬8億元","（114年度1億6,000萬元、115年度4億元、116年度2億4,000萬元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量8億元","（114年度1億6,000萬元、115年度4億元、116年度2億4,000萬元）","（以上請參閱預算書第37至39頁）","第8款　衛生福利部主管360億元","（114年度200億元、115年度116億7,763萬7千元、116年度43億2,236萬3千元）","第1項　衛生福利部261億9,779萬元","（114年度200億元、115年度57億2,154萬元、116年度4億7,625萬元）","第1目　挹注全民健康保險基金及勞工保險基金200億元","（114年度200億元、115年度無列數、116年度無列數）","第2目　加強照顧弱勢族群及提供關懷服務61億9,779萬元","（114年度無列數、115年度57億2,154萬元、116年度4億7,625萬元）","第2項　社會及家庭署98億0,221萬元","（114年度無列數、115年度59億5,609萬7千元、116年度38億4,611萬3千元）","第1目　加強照顧弱勢族群及提供關懷服務35億2,804萬5千元","（114年度無列數、115年度32億5,715萬7千元、116年度2億7,088萬8千元）","第2目　加強照顧弱勢族群及提供關懷服務62億7,416萬5千元","（114年度無列數、115年度26億9,894萬元、116年度35億7,522萬5千元）","（以上請參閱預算書第39至41頁）","第9款　海洋委員會主管295億6,223萬6千元","（114年度4億5,094萬1千元、115年度79億8,712萬2千元、116年度211億2,417萬3千元）","第1項　海巡署及所屬284億6,293萬8千元","（114年度4億5,094萬1千元、115年度74億4,981萬元、116年度205億6,218萬7千元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量268億0,908萬元","（114年度4億2,544萬1千元、115年度71億7,860萬6千元、116年度192億0,503萬3千元）","第2目　提升資通作業環境及設備16億5,385萬8千元","（114年度2,550萬元、115年度2億7,120萬4千元、116年度13億5,715萬4千元）","第2項　國家海洋研究院10億9,929萬8千元","（114年度無列數、115年度5億3,731萬2千元、116年度5億6,198萬6千元）","第1目　強化國土防衛能量10億9,929萬8千元","（114年度無列數、115年度5億3,731萬2千元、116年度5億6,198萬6千元）","（以上請參閱預算書第41至42頁）","有關政事別歲出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0d573d7691941066f2b1f00580874b155441e0052ed6558bb332e030545e112f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"14:37:50 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我邀請內政部部長請內政部 劉部長"},{"start":30.905,"end":57.838,"text":"委員好部長好今天我們要審查的是任性的特別預算就在這個當下其實我們台灣仍然是面臨重大的災害的考驗在花蓮的馬太安的災情直到現在其實還需要很多的幫助那特別我一定要感謝我們政府各個部會以及我們的國軍在第一線真的是投入了很多的心力也提供很多的幫助那我想我們社會的任性需要繼續的努力"},{"start":59.219,"end":85.601,"text":"同時我們也看到許多是來自台灣社會各地各個角落自發的鏟子超人也就是台灣自發的志工們一個一個的帶著一個鏟子穿著一雙雨鞋就來到現場來協助救災這個是讓人非常的感動但是我們也看到在桃園挖土機航的老闆林鴻森先生因為"},{"start":87.679,"end":95.346,"text":"太盡力救災所以而往生這個其實也是令人相當的難過那我想無論如何救災防災這應當都是我們政府的責任那民力是我們台灣的民間的力量讓人非常的感動但是我們政府也要來思考我們怎麼樣可以跟民力有一個更好的合作如此來去增加增強我們台灣的防災的能力"},{"start":112.523,"end":115.846,"text":"也讓我們今天審查這個預算的主題防災韌性它能夠更加的強韌那因為部長您同時是部長也是總統府全社會防衛韌性委員會的執密那我們在立法院有一個全民防衛連線那我也是會長所以今天特別想要跟部長您討論這個問題我在我的選區萬華跟南機場正好看到有幾個社福單位"},{"start":135.546,"end":154.597,"text":"平時是在協助弱勢但是呢因為平常有儲備有準備有組織有空間所以在災時他們可以再迅速第一時間就來投入救災我想這是一個模式可以給我們來參考首先是這個休息關懷協會這個有一本書叫做工的人這作者林立青他成立了休息關懷協會一開始是在輔助我們萬華的街友"},{"start":157.899,"end":173.207,"text":"教他們使用高壓清洗機到學校裡面來協助學校清洗這慢慢就成立了一個在社區裡面的災防的據點所以第一個有人有組織第二個有培訓平常就在培訓第三個他有物資有倉儲的空間"},{"start":174.688,"end":177.932,"text":"那這邊我要特別感謝我們國防部的鎮戰局在去年的時候鎮戰局有兩個縣制過去是眷舍的空間來提供我們社區做公益的認養所以呢就讓另外兩個團體一個是新降堂這個是水電師傅職人組成的協會"},{"start":192.248,"end":208.979,"text":"另外一個是效力志工團長期在台灣投入在地救災但是每次救災完例如說鏟子 手套 雨鞋這些東西丟掉可惜啊他們都把它重新清洗好再儲存起來所以我感謝國防部也提供這樣的空間讓我們在社區裡面有這樣子的災防據點"},{"start":210.08,"end":215.864,"text":"那再來呢還有一個模式我覺得也很重要是叫做食物銀行這是在南機場我們有一位叫方和生里長長期投入食物銀行的工作他也曾經獲得總統文化獎那為什麼呢因為就在疫情的時候最嚴重的時候其實我們萬華南機場也曾經面臨幾乎是孤島的絕境物資送不進來"},{"start":231.994,"end":241.516,"text":"所以呢在疫情之後方和勝里長就到台灣各地這次在花蓮他也有跟本末基金會合作的食物銀行平常就來儲存需要的乾糧甚至盥洗用品相關的乾淨的內衣褲衣物都有所以呢在上個禮拜四期第一時間他們在當地就有空間就有車輛就有貨車也有長期配合的在地的大賣場超市第一時間就幫他們把乾糧送到災區了"},{"start":259.341,"end":283.345,"text":"所以這都是長期平時就建立起來的所以我想這樣的來自民間的力量的這種災防的模式是很值得我們政府來去思考未來怎麼樣可以建立起來讓我們可以在民間的防災跟我們政府的各項的部會功能上面有一個更好的合作接下來我想要邀請部長你請點我請衛福部跟農業部一起來因為講到食物銀行"},{"start":288.886,"end":307.192,"text":"食物銀行目前在我們中央的主管機關是衛福部因為它被放在社會救助可是在這一次的這個災防當中我們看到它食物銀行其實轉做物資儲備偏鄉運輸這樣子的功能那食物銀行專法我們已經講民間商業等了10多年了"},{"start":307.992,"end":314.934,"text":"到現在沒有出來所以我特別也要跟內政部來討論就是說我覺得在防災裡面食物銀行也是一個很重要的一個角色所以呢我希望這個我們衛福部關於專法趕快去研議但是內政部未來在整個防災體系也可以把它納入來思考那我也要請教農業部農業部有一個主要業務叫做糧食安全目前你們有沒有把食物銀行納入糧食安全的業務呢"},{"start":336.641,"end":363.827,"text":"我想我們目前我們的公糧收了以後會把當期米提供一些比較弱勢的這些就是你們自己來做嗎我們有沒有在輔導民間成立食物銀行呢我們自己那是我們現在自己來做的部分那我們現在有跟一些量販店像一些量販店他把一些即將過期的有沒有這些東西進到區域性的食物銀行有去這是我們有跟他溝通我們有來協助美和對"},{"start":365.347,"end":387.896,"text":"好 這個我再請這個最後就是我要特別拜託我們內政部在未來再去建立我們跟民間的這個災防的合作的模式當中可以就這一次花蓮的經驗我們來汲取一些讓未來我們的災防據點可以更多好 我們一定會提出精進的方案好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 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謝謝主席有請衛福部呂次長好 請呂次長社家署周代理署長內政部劉部長內政部劉部長嘛劉部長 內政部嘛"},{"start":29.924,"end":43.792,"text":"內政部我們也可以請一個對不起社家署那郭州署長是代理署長 郭代理署長內政部可以請那個郭土方還是吳署長吳署長 謝謝三位長官好王委員好"},{"start":57.062,"end":77.115,"text":"今天針對這次的任性特別預算想要針對在超高齡社會之下如何打造跨部會的獨居老人安全的照顧網來跟三位長官做個討論我們也了解在這次的社家署在任性特別預算裡面編列的強化"},{"start":78.135,"end":94.473,"text":"獨居老人關懷服務有62.7億預計在115跟116年辦理相關強化獨居老人服務來針對擴大安全緊急救援裝置加強送餐服務等內容做一些處理"},{"start":95.314,"end":120.311,"text":"我們先看一個數據就是從2020年到2025年我們針對獨具老人的安裝緊急救援連線從18%提高到27%人數也增加了將近1萬多位在中低收入的部分安裝率甚至到達了40%相信這個都是貴部還有包括社家屬努力的成果是的"},{"start":120.771,"end":147.134,"text":"不過我相信這次會再透過特別預算希望用更多元的方式來強化這方面的部分除了針對中低老人以外也希望有更務實的評估方式來針對所有符合條件的這些長者能夠提供原本是屬於居家式的也可以有更多的選擇包括穿戴式的選項這些部分都是讓我們非常肯定的地方"},{"start":147.694,"end":172.862,"text":"那因應超高齡社會之下我們也相信有需要更多的照顧模式還有更好的安全照顧方式才能夠達到賴總統希望能夠在未來的八年裡面的兩個重大的目標一個就是讓平均愈命可以從79歲提升到82歲那另外不健康愈命可以從10%降低到8%這個都很需要更多跨部會的這些討論演繹還有執行"},{"start":175.343,"end":199.943,"text":"所以今天我们有提出了三项政策性的建议来跟大家讨论第一个部分就是用跨部会的研议独居老人全面访查询问跟宣读内容因为我们知道未来会针对于七万位独居老人做很完整的道普评估这个当然需要跟地方政府共同合作这个评估的内容里面"},{"start":200.603,"end":222.029,"text":"如何能夠更完整、更多元包括如何讓這個癌篩、健檢、三高防治等等都能夠納為這次的內容那尤其更重要的就是防跌就是防止跌倒我們也知道老人家最擔心的就是防止就是最怕它跌倒導致的這個生命的影響那這個部分就需要有運動跟這個營養的補充、保護"},{"start":225.47,"end":245.932,"text":"還有在居家的部份 交通的部份也需要把好的照明還有好的防滑等措施也都能夠透過內政部的協助讓這個部份可以得到好的影響運動部 交通部等等所以這個全面啟動之前我們希望各個部會都要把這些內容都可以含括進來這是第一部分"},{"start":246.252,"end":265.692,"text":"第二部分就是有關於緊急救援連線裝置的可能裡面除了救援以外以這次花蓮老字的危險避難緊急撤離等等能不能夠同時把這個功能也跟內政部這邊共同來研議把它納為相關的可能的措施"},{"start":266.272,"end":288.058,"text":"最後一項就是要設定一個安裝率的目標是不是能夠在115年可以116年結束的時候可以到達50%的安裝率中低收入的部分可以到達60%類似的KPI這部分是不是就請大家一起共同來處理好的 非常感謝王委員誠如王委員剛所說的這個是我們超高齡社會賴總統也非常非常關心這一塊"},{"start":294.56,"end":320.269,"text":"那這個部分我們確實就是跨部會特別我要感謝內政部這邊劉仕芳劉部長他也特別有指示就是說我們兩部共同來做這個合作還有包括我們現在目前這次有通過的一個有一個老宅老宅的這一個更新的方案那這個部分衛福部也會跟內政部這邊我們共同來合作來給我們獨居老人一個最好的一個安全而且舒適的一個保障 謝謝"},{"start":321.449,"end":334.498,"text":"所以我想最重要就是啟動調查之前在跟地方政府必須要有完整的內容這樣才能夠達到這個最好的目標沒錯沒錯就大家共同努力好的OK好也非常感謝王委員一直以來對這個問題的關心謝謝好謝謝王振旭委員接下來請王洪威委員王洪威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1783,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（14時32分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部呂次長、社家署周代理署長，還有內政部國土署吳署長。"],["主席：請呂次長、周代理署長還有吳署長。"],["王委員正旭：三位長官好。"],["呂次長建德：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：有關這次的韌性特別預算，今天想要針對在超高齡社會之下如何打造跨部會獨居老人的安全照顧網來跟三位長官做個討論。我們也瞭解，這次社家署在韌性特別預算裡面編列了強化獨居老人關懷服務有62.7億，預計在115年跟116年辦理相關強化獨居老人服務、擴大安裝緊急救援裝置、加強送餐服務等內容。","我們先看一個數據，這是從2020年到2025年獨居老人安裝緊急救援連線表，從18%提高到27%，人數也增加了將近一萬多位，在中低收入的部分，安裝率甚至到達40%，相信這個都是貴部包括社家署努力的成果。"],["呂次長建德：是的。"],["王委員正旭：不過，我相信這次再透過這個特別預算，希望用更多元的方式來強化這個方面，除了針對中低老人以外，也希望有更務實的評估方式，對所有符合條件的這些長者都能夠提供，原本屬於居家式的也可以有更多的選擇，包括穿戴式的選項，這些部分都是讓我們非常肯定的地方。為因應超高齡社會，我們也相信需要更多的照顧模式，還有更好的安全照顧方式，才能夠達到賴總統希望在未來8年的兩個重大目標，一個就是讓平均餘命可以從79歲提升到82歲，另外是不健康餘命可以從10%降低到8%，這個都很需要更多的跨部會討論、研議還有執行，所以今天我們提出了三項政策性的建議來跟大家討論。","第一個部分就是跨部會研議獨居老人全面訪查詢問跟宣導內容，因為我們知道未來會針對7萬位獨居老人做很完整的到府評估，這個當然需要跟地方政府共同合作，這個評估的內容如何能夠更完整、更多元，包括如何讓癌篩、健檢、三高防治等等都能夠納為這次的內容，尤其更重要的就是防跌（防止跌倒），我們也知道，老人家最怕的就是跌倒導致生命受到影響，這個部分就需要運動跟營養的補充及保護，還有在居家部分及交通部分也需要好的照明及好的防滑等措施，希望能夠透過內政部的協助讓這個部分可以得到好的影響，還包括運動部、交通部等等，所以在這個全面啟動之前，我們希望各個部會都可以把這些內容含括進來，這是第一個部分。"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：第二個部分就是跨部會研議強化緊急救援連線裝置功能的可能，除了救援以外，以這次花蓮的危險避難、緊急撤離等等來看，能不能夠同時也跟內政部這邊共同來研議，把這個功能納為相關可能的措施？","最後一項就是要設定一個安裝率目標，是不是能夠在116年結束的時候達到50%的安裝率、中低收入的部分可以到達60%，類似的KPI，這個部分是不是就請大家一起共同來處理？"],["呂次長建德：OK。非常感謝王委員，誠如剛剛王委員所說的，我想我們是超高齡社會嘛，賴總統也非常非常關心這一塊，這個部分我們確實就是會跨部會，特別我要感謝內政部這邊，劉世芳部長也特別有指示我們兩部共同來做這個合作，還有包括我們這次有通過一個有關老宅更新的方案，這個部分衛福部也會跟內政部共同合作，給我們獨居老人一個最好的、安全的、舒適的保障。謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以我想最重要的就是啟動調查之前，地方政府必須要有完整的內容，這樣才能夠達到最好的目標。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯、沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：那就大家共同努力，謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：好的，也非常感謝王委員一直以來對這個問題的關心，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。","接下來請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接下來請吳沛憶委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff00e1e8fcc06bfbf522b1f00580874b155441e0052ed6558bb11b1cec9fb31ec975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"14:23:15 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政部長"},{"start":38.216,"end":38.236,"text":"來請鄭部長"},{"start":55.334,"end":71.891,"text":"委員好部長好首先要肯定部長在這次我們花蓮的災區的過程中第一時間點就聯繫國防部那拜託他們務必先處理學校然後也非常的關心就是學生復課的狀況那也把我們國教署長請他進駐花蓮"},{"start":76.656,"end":97.634,"text":"那所以过去几天我都有跟国教署长联络知道他非常的关心也跟花莲政府协调很多跟学生跟老师的就是救灾的事情还有复课的状况今天我想针对复课之后发生的一些状况想跟部长讨论看是不是能够处理的更好下一页"},{"start":99.95,"end":120.989,"text":"昨天這是根據中央社引述花蓮縣政府的數據昨天已經開始復課了但是我們看到這邊整理的表格每一個學校的情況不一樣看起來以光復商工來講的話其實有非常多的學生是請假70個學生請假71個學生是視訊"},{"start":125.132,"end":140.752,"text":"那這個部分可是教育部給我們的數字今天我們要到的是首日出席率130人所以我有點不確定這個數字到底應該以中央社花蓮縣政府為準還是教育部那如果是以"},{"start":141.272,"end":167.053,"text":"我們看到的花蓮縣政府的數據其實就幼兒園的部分請假率還是蠻高的國中小其實也是有74個人請假視訊上課27人但將近有100個人不能到學校請問數字的部分部長這邊有沒有掌握光復商工到底是出席130人還是140幾個幾乎全校就是不是視訊就是請假"},{"start":170.252,"end":194.879,"text":"詳細的數字我會後再跟委員報告但是就關乎三公本來這一個禮拜就是等於以視訊優先然後另外中小學的部分我們知道還有部分的災區家園還沒重建特別幼兒園這裡邊可能有一些災區的家庭他小孩的照顧我想這整體的一個我們大概是像今天也有"},{"start":195.419,"end":214.847,"text":"媒體報導說學生是空手到學校事實上這個都已經這個書包書籍被沖走的本來在學校裡面都已經幫他全部都這個準備好了學生只要沒有書包沒有這個文具沒有課本的學校都已經幫他準備好他就可以直接取用"},{"start":215.507,"end":230.688,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我想現在我們的確是面臨兩難就是因為有些家長的確也希望學生能夠早點去學校那像您講的就是如果以花蓮商工為例的話雖然你們希望他能夠試訓"},{"start":231.869,"end":246.781,"text":"可是有一半的學生其實視訊他也沒有辦法參與我們了解到的狀況他的確是需要家裡還需要重整家園需要蠻多的部分我現在想問的事情是我們能不能夠有一些彈性上課的方案"},{"start":248.502,"end":251.284,"text":"那已经明确连视讯都做不到的学生"},{"start":278.762,"end":293.059,"text":"是不是能夠感謝委員提醒確實我們有部分的家庭因為現在通信基本上沒問題所以有部分家裡還需要去整理的有部分學生沒辦法來到學校的我們在花蓮縣政府這個部分我們"},{"start":294,"end":297.542,"text":"現在花蓮關戶這個附近我們請高中協助提供這些網路卡讓他們可以在家裡能夠用視訊那另外關戶商工因為譬如說汽修科所有的汽車實習的工廠全部都已經報廢了"},{"start":312.19,"end":316.193,"text":"那也就慘不忍睹我們現在在汽車工廠整理好以後也幫忙大學端去報會的一個汽車有八部現在學校同意有四部要使用包含民間也願意來捐贈這些汽車修復的這些重型機具我想這我們都持續來做下個禮拜一應該都能夠實體上"},{"start":337.691,"end":362.22,"text":"這個部分的器具都有幫忙張羅那我們這邊掌握到的是教育部跟花蓮縣政府已經提供給學生網路卡分享器電腦課本行動載具我覺得這邊是相當好的但是我們也看到教師的教學需求有包含就是其實不是每個老師都能夠同時就是線上授課然後教室也上課這個混合實體上線的"},{"start":364.221,"end":393.661,"text":"教材跟学习资源另外我们也收到澄清教师其实有些本身就是受灾户他本身就很难来上课包含以光复商工来讲他的教职员工的深宿舍是集中宿舍目前复员的情况也不明还有很多老师住在那所以是不是教育部能够有一些更具体的方案我自己提出三个诉求主席站起来但是理论上我应该还有三分钟"},{"start":395.122,"end":421.416,"text":"這第一個嚴寧彈性上課的方案讓仍然需要救災無法按表上課的師生他能夠兼顧學習也能夠清理家園那特別是出缺席的部分那能不能夠有一些補救的方案那第二個教學如果需要支援的話那軟體的部分我想教育部應該很熟悉很多軟體的資源是不是能夠謝謝委員提醒第三就是受災戶的老師"},{"start":423.257,"end":436.269,"text":"教育部是不是能夠盡速盤點哪些老師本身就是收災戶那他要兼顧上課跟家庭讓老師安心復課我們也跟委員一樣都有關心那至於學校的私生的宿舍現在都已經全部都恢復了"},{"start":438.551,"end":456.596,"text":"包含花蓮商工的部分宿舍全部恢復了嗎宿舍老師的部宿舍跟學生的宿舍基本上都已經清理完畢因為我們還有收到陳情不過沒關係這個數字的部分沒有關係我們會還有包含這三個訴求是不是兩個禮拜可以給本席書面報告好嗎"},{"start":457.236,"end":473.732,"text":"可以那謝謝部長在第一時間就努力的協助師生關於學校的部分那這些部分我希望能夠緊緊讓大家看到教育部更細心的照顧他們的權益好 那謝謝部長好 謝謝謝謝范雲委員好 謝謝部長接下來請劉書斌委員劉書斌委員 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請經濟部部長好 請經濟部工部長這位好"},{"start":40.046,"end":67.558,"text":"國務長我剛在中華掛回來中華現在在辦這個2025年的台灣設計展設計展辦得不錯這是你們跟他們合辦嘛這算年度大事以前都在六都第四道的這個造化線那它是歷史有史以來最多的最大的它有三個展區位於中華到六港還有張嵐的店中叫餐位有19個展館我今天早上去了我看他們很努力在做市長 何市長代表你去了啦"},{"start":68.198,"end":89.838,"text":"對 因為我在立法院 沒有辦法我還找時間看看立法院如果有空的話彰化的引擎冠軍很多他也是從小企業這個言香對台灣的這個貢獻是非常大的可是這段時間他受到很大的一個衝擊特別是高關稅的這個衝擊那王惠美王縣長跟整個團隊非常認真我希望你這段時間"},{"start":91.139,"end":104.082,"text":"要多去幫忙 把台灣市長辦得更好上次已經有去過一次我跟院長也去過 我自己也再去過了這段時間要多幫忙 讓彰化可以發光讓全台灣 全世界可以看得到接下來我要問高關稅的衝擊美國商業部長明確的說晶片要555分"},{"start":117.523,"end":145.433,"text":"那鄭麗卿 鄭副院長已經講了不只沒有討論也絕對不接受嘛 對不對所以你們都貫徹絕對不接受 對不對副院長代表的就是我們台灣的態度那如果接受了或者實際做的嘴巴講的後來沒有達成實際做的變成真的五五分那就是賣台囉我給大家看一下美國的商業部長講的就是說"},{"start":146.724,"end":175.555,"text":"在川普的任期結束以前要將美國的晶片的自治力提升至少要變成40%目前美國只有2%喔台灣佔95%他明確的講到川普剩下三年多任內就要達到40%這代表什麼我們護國神山就變成半屏山了捏要半一半過對不對"},{"start":176.821,"end":183.605,"text":"而且裡面沒半啦就是台灣的部分還會持續增加啦現在台積電已經承諾1650億嘛那其中的他有6個廠恐怕到2028年大概可以量產了應該按照程序正常的程序應該適合3個廠"},{"start":195.592,"end":206.144,"text":"我給你一個非常明確的數據為2019年到2025年台積電在全球所有廠包括台灣、美國、日本、德國的投資"},{"start":208.379,"end":234.471,"text":"2019年是149億2020年是172億到了2021年第一次突破到300億最高最高的就是2020年了投資多少錢362億後來又降下來300億就算一年如果投資全球所有的廠包到台灣差不多38億那我現在跟你講我剛剛為什麼提醒你美國商業部長講這個話很重要"},{"start":235.759,"end":264.115,"text":"他在未來的三年多要把美國的自製力 晶片自製力要提高到40%這樣表示一年台積電去美國投資要250億你說1650嘛 對不對1650的1000億是未來的四年要投資一年就是250億那我剛剛跟你講最近這幾年投資多少錢包括台灣全球是300億當然會排擠啊這個就是現在你要去注意的地方"},{"start":265.168,"end":286.684,"text":"不是嘴巴講的一套 做的是一套如果只剩下五十億像最近這幾天 我是教他人教他人說我們的那個封測廠會不會受到影響台中市議會整個都鬧翻了在質疑說他們的一期跟二期馬上到年底要開工會不會受影響台積電都說正常包括台中科的過場"},{"start":290.066,"end":305.449,"text":"保定還有嘉義也會持續進行計畫不變嘛時間會不會有影響嘛保定我剛才說是非常理性物質科學的因為嘉義的部分主要是因為工程上他不是說政策上改變"},{"start":306.07,"end":326.718,"text":"對啦 所以部長你一定要讓台中嘉義的整個台積電的投資跟工程要如期那我現在跟你講更重要的明明這個錢就排擠了我算給你聽了一年台積電投資300億美國如果每一年都拿走250億當然就影響台灣投資這是第一 第二我現在給你比較給你看 你看喔"},{"start":327.711,"end":355.89,"text":"他講說美國這三個部長說他的投資金額要超過五千億的美金要從封測到整個封裝都要完整下面這句話最重要的要把整個產業鏈啊帶回美國才能達成他說要讓台灣參與要讓台灣參與而且整個產業鏈都要執行那這個跟前幾天鄭麗菁講的台灣模式不是一樣嗎你嘴巴說我絕對不同意五五分"},{"start":357.248,"end":384.515,"text":"結果你的台灣模式擴大對美投資做的是什麼政府跟企業分工然後政府還要去提供金融信訪的機制我也提供一些數據給你聽就是說如果到2028年到台積電在美國建了這個廠大概第三個廠可以開始量產這三個廠出來的話每月的量產是大概5.3萬片"},{"start":386.595,"end":403.364,"text":"現在我們5奈米以下在台灣現在越產能就是25萬片但是我們現在到2028年我們還會增建所以這個不可能是1比1問題來了嘛那問題來了嘛美國的商業部長怎麼可以講說他要五五分呢"},{"start":404.584,"end":432.474,"text":"在未來三年他要五五分然後更重要的我們的對美談判的代表我們的勝利金副院長提一個台灣模式我們又要去增加用一個產業部落把整個我們某些半導體的整個產業搬到美國去這樣不就是嘴巴講的跟實際做的不一樣嗎來 看一看喔你去對比對比勝利金的台灣模式到美國的商業部長要達成的五五分"},{"start":433.55,"end":461.697,"text":"不能說很像啊只能說一模一樣啊因為你嘴巴講的不同意可是你實際做出來的我剛剛提供的你的晶片的產業就會外移到美國去嘛我剛剛提供給那個委員是實際的數字就是按照台積電的實際上到二零二八年他三個廠蓋完大概五萬多片越產人那我們現在已經二十五萬現在美國商業部長跟你講也是你們他說這個信息在電視上專訪他很清楚講已經跟我們代表團已經傳達回來了嘛"},{"start":463.53,"end":478.344,"text":"那他要你投資這麼多錢 我跟你算過啦你的錢就是給美國一點兩百五十億你就排擠到台灣的投資嘛 這第一點嘛第二點他要達到五五分未來三年多你現在又把你的產業晶片的產業部落到美國去"},{"start":479.701,"end":505.954,"text":"那你不是影響到台灣的辦法所以人家才講說你的護國神山戲頓是不是變成半屏山了嘛實際上就是不可能嘛我剛才提到的2028年5萬多片我們現在已經25萬片所以現在才我們現在的五分之一而已啊所以那個美國的商業部長是亂講是不是這個我沒有辦法評論我沒有辦法評論他在電視上專訪直接清楚講說已經跟我們代表團明確的表達了結果我們這邊還講說沒有討論"},{"start":508.393,"end":523.355,"text":"你是說他胡說八道嗎我們的賴清德總統昨天還特別講什麼要協助美國成為AI的世界中心要讓美國再次偉大台灣的總統最重要是台灣偉大吧"},{"start":524.417,"end":545.252,"text":"美國再次偉大然後把我們的經費五五分嗎立足台灣佈局全球這本來就是政策的方向台灣半導體先做得非常好才有辦法美國才有辦法藉我們的半導體而發展現在就是你們不要只有喊口號你從實際我剛剛跟你講的不管是資金投入美國一年250億不管是"},{"start":547.333,"end":566.307,"text":"鄭麗晶提出來的台灣模式你就是我們晶片的從上中下游整個晶片肌肉的移轉到美國去嘛對不對你這個裡面牽扯到多少資金要出去多少的產業要出去多少工作機會要出去你們都有責任跟民眾講清楚耶你們到目前都沒講耶"},{"start":569.609,"end":573.473,"text":"不是只有台積電喔是整個晶片的產業喔部長你是很有名的財經專家不是只有台積電富國神山變半屏山整個晶片的產業"},{"start":587.507,"end":602.497,"text":"IG設計上面有聯發科 瑞玉聯融 封裝測試日月光矽屏 晶圓電池 設備跟材料商台達電 秦創 南亞你們所謂的台灣模式要過去 上中下游"},{"start":614.694,"end":629.508,"text":"这些厂商做全球布局在那边可以因此力量延伸赚钱这个当然也是好事台湾它会持续扩敞持续最先进的技术都在台湾资金是有限的"},{"start":630.609,"end":657.36,"text":"拿去美國當然台灣受影響啊你的人才會外流啊你的工作機會會過去啊去那邊是借力使力借他們的這些科技人才也好或是土地水電嘛這是借力使力嘛來保定我們有非常距離所以台灣有多少的上中下游的晶片產業多少資金會出去哪幾家會去影響多少工作機會部長再用詳細書面回答好不好時間有限要直接回答問題"},{"start":658.32,"end":683.423,"text":"那個已經站起來一段時間了這樣好不好我剛問的問題第一個不要只有嘴巴講我現在跟你講的都非常實際的台灣模式鄭麗菁清楚講我們晶片的晶片整個部聚落是要過去的你給我四個很具體的多少資金要出去要到美國去第二個資金對不對哪幾家是會去的"},{"start":684.318,"end":694.308,"text":"第三個更重要 影響多少的工作機會我們沒有辦法幫企業宣布事情我們可以講說是企業對外公開部長 部長 部長鄭麗菁講的是說你們採取分工政府有產業過去你們要開始要去做調查嘛 對不對"},{"start":707.528,"end":728.801,"text":"所以我剛講一分鐘嘛所以我剛要了四個指標這是鄭麗晶講的嘛你一個禮拜內給我好不好有多少資金出去你不是說產業出去然後你們負責去審核嗎我們不能幫企業宣布他的規劃除非他自行對外宣布那你把你鄭麗晶今天的規劃給我好不好謝謝張旗開委員"},{"start":734.726,"end":740.095,"text":"接下來請陳永康委員陳永康委員陳永康委員不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1664,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（14時11分）謝謝主席，請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請經濟部龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：龔部長，我剛從彰化趕回來，彰化現在在舉辦2025年臺灣設計展，辦得不錯，這是你們跟他們合辦嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這算年度大事，以前都在六都，第一次到彰化縣。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：它是有史以來最大的，有3個展區，從彰化到鹿港，還有彰南的田中和田尾，有19個展館，我今天早上去了，我看他們很努力在做，是何次長代表你去的。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，因為我都在立法院，沒有辦法，我會找時間去，如果立法院沒有開會的話。"],["張委員啓楷：彰化的隱形冠軍很多，它也是中小企業的原鄉，對臺灣的貢獻非常大，可是這段期間它受到很大的衝擊，特別是高關稅的衝擊，王惠美縣長和整個團隊非常認真，我希望你這段期間要多去幫忙，把臺灣設計展辦得更好。"],["龔部長明鑫：有，我上次已經去過一次，我跟院長去過，我自己也再去過。"],["張委員啓楷：這段期間多幫忙，讓彰化可以發光到全臺灣，全世界可以看得到。"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。"],["張委員啓楷：接下來我要問高關稅的衝擊，美國商業部長明確的說晶片要五五分，鄭麗君副院長也講了，不只沒有討論，也絕對不接受，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們會貫徹絕對不接受，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：鄭副院長代表的就是我們臺灣的態度。"],["張委員啓楷：如果接受了，或者嘴巴講的後來沒有達成，實際做的變成真的五五分，那就是賣臺喔！我給大家看一下，美國的商務部長說在川普的任期結束以前，要將美國的晶片自製率提升到至少40%，目前美國只有2%，臺灣占95%，他明確的講到川普剩下三年多的任期要達到40%，這代表什麼？我們護國神山就變成半屏山了，要搬一半過去，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有搬，臺灣的部分還是持續增加，現在台積電已經承諾1,650億元，它有6個廠，恐怕到2028年，按照正常的程序，可以量產的應該只有3個廠。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我給你一個非常明確的數據，從2019年到2025年，台積電在全球所有廠，包括臺灣、美國、日本、德國的投資，2019年是149億元，2020年是172億元，2021年第一次突破到300億元，最高的就是2022年投資362億元，後來又降下來300億元，它一年投資全球所有的廠包括臺灣差不多300億元。我剛剛為什麼提醒你美國商務部長講這個話很重要？他說在未來的三年多要把美國的晶片自製率提高到40%，表示一年台積電去美國投資要250億元，現在是1,650億元，1,650億元裡的1,000億元是未來四年要投資，一年就是250億元，我剛才跟你講最近這幾年投資多少錢？包括臺灣，全球是300億元，剩不到50億元，當然會排擠啊！這個就是你現在要注意的地方，不是嘴巴講一套，做的是一套，如果只剩下50億元，像最近這幾天，我是嘉義人，嘉義人都在問我們的封測廠會不會受到影響？臺中市議會整個都鬧翻了，質疑他們的二期到年底馬上要開工了，會不會受影響。"],["龔部長明鑫：台積電都說正常，包括中科的擴廠和嘉義CoWos也會持續進行。"],["張委員啓楷：計畫不變，時間會不會有影響？部長，我剛才跟你講的是非常理性、務實、科學的。"],["龔部長明鑫：嘉義的部分主要是因為工程上，不是政策上改變。"],["張委員啓楷：你一定要讓臺中、嘉義的台積電投資和工程要如期，我現在跟你講更重要的，明明這個錢就排擠，我可以算給你聽，1年投資300億元，美國如果每一年都拿走250億元，當然就影響臺灣投資，這是第一點。第二點，美國商務部長說投資金額要超過5,000億美元，要從封測到整個封裝都要完整，下面這句話最重要，就是要把整個產業鏈帶回美國才能達成，他說要讓臺灣參與，而且整個產業鏈都要執行，這跟前幾天鄭麗君講的臺灣模式不是一樣嗎？你嘴巴講絕對不同意五五分，結果你的臺灣模式擴大對美投資做的是什麼？政府和企業分工，政府還要提供金融信保的機制。"],["龔部長明鑫：我也有提供一些數據給你聽，如果到2028年，台積電在美國建的廠大概第3個廠可以開始量產，這3個廠每月量產大概5.3萬片，現在臺灣5奈米以下月產能就是25萬片，但是到2028年我們還會增建，所以不可能是一比一。"],["張委員啓楷：問題來了嘛！美國商務部長怎麼可以說要五五分？未來三年要五五分，更重要的是，我們對美談判的代表鄭麗君副院長提出臺灣模式，我們又要增加，用一個產業部落，把某些半導體的整個產業搬到美國去。"],["龔部長明鑫：副院長已經有說明不可能五五分。"],["張委員啓楷：這不是嘴巴講的跟實際做的不一樣嗎？你去對比鄭麗君講的臺灣模式，和美國的商務部長要達成的五五分，不能說很像，只能說一模一樣啊！你嘴巴講不同意，但是實際做出來的，晶片的產業就是外移到美國去。"],["龔部長明鑫：我剛剛提供給委員的是實際的數字，就是按照台積電實際上到2028年3個廠蓋完大概五萬多片月產能，我們現在已經25萬片。"],["張委員啓楷：現在美國商務部長跟你們講，他在電視專訪時講的，這個訊息已經由代表團傳達回來了，他要你投資這麼多錢，我剛才算過了，你的錢給美國一年250億元，你就排擠到臺灣的投資，這是第一點。第二點，他未來三年多要達到五五分，你現在要讓晶片的產業部落到美國去，那不是影響到臺灣？所以人家才會講護國神山矽盾變成半屏山了。"],["龔部長明鑫：實際上就是不可能，我剛剛講了，2028年五萬多片，我們現在已經25萬片，所以只有我們現在的五分之一而已。"],["張委員啓楷：所以是美國的商務部長亂講，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：這我沒辦法評論。"],["張委員啓楷：他在電視專訪中直接清楚講已經向代表團明確表達了，結果我們這邊還說沒有討論，你是說他胡說八道嗎？我們的賴清德總統昨天還特別說要協助美國成為AI的世界中心，要讓美國再次偉大，臺灣的總統最重要是臺灣偉大吧！美國再次偉大，然後把我們的晶片五五分嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：立足臺灣，布局全球，這本來就是政策的方向。臺灣半導體先做得非常好，美國才有辦法藉我們的半導體發展AI。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們不要只有喊口號，你從實際我剛跟你講的，不管是資金挹注美國一年250億元，不管是鄭麗君提出來的臺灣模式，就是我們晶片從上、中、下游的整個晶片聚落移轉到美國去嘛！對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，那個1,650億……"],["張委員啓楷：這個裡面牽扯到有多少資金要出去、多少產業要出去、多少工作機會要出去，你們都有責任跟民眾講清楚耶！"],["主席：張委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你們到目前都沒講耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：1,650億是台積電的布局，1,650億是台積電……"],["主席：部長，我想……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，不是只有台積電，是整個晶片的產業喔！"],["主席：張委員，你超過時間很多了！"],["張委員啓楷：我馬上就好，1分鐘，1分鐘好不好？"],["主席：好，快一點。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你是很有名的財經專家，不是只有台積電這個護國神山變半屏山，整個晶片產業，IC設計上有聯發科，對不對？還有瑞昱跟聯詠；封裝測試是日月光跟矽品、京元電子；設備跟材料商是台達電、群創、南亞科。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這些產業……"],["張委員啓楷：這是鄭麗君所謂的臺灣模式，要過去的有上、中、下游耶！部長，我問你……"],["龔部長明鑫：委員，我跟你說，這些廠商做全球……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在是說鄭麗君講的不算，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：這些廠商做全球布局，在那邊可以因此延伸力量、能賺錢，這個當然也是好事啊！"],["主席：張委員，再10秒鐘。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，臺灣有……"],["龔部長明鑫：在臺灣會持續擴廠、持續最先進的技術，都在臺灣啊！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，資金是有限的，拿去美國後當然臺灣會受影響啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：去的話……"],["張委員啓楷：你的人才會外流啊！你的工作機會也會過去啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：去那邊是借力使力，借他們的這些科技人才也好，或者是土地、水、電，就是借力使力嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，我就是問你嘛，部長，我們非常具體……"],["主席：張委員……"],["張委員啓楷：所以臺灣上、中、下游的晶片產業有多少的資金會出去？哪幾家會去？影響多少工作機會？"],["主席：部長，再用詳細的書面回答，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：時間有限，請直接回答我的問題。"],["主席：用書面回答。"],["張委員啓楷：主席站起來一段時間了，這樣好不好？我剛剛問的問題，我剛剛問的問題，第一個，不要只有嘴巴講，我現在跟你講的都非常實際，臺灣模式，鄭麗君清楚的講我們晶片的整個聚落是要過去的，你給我四個很具體的數字，多少資金要到美國去？第二個，哪幾家是會去的？第三個更重要，影響多少的工作機會？第四個，多少人才流出去？"],["主席：好了，張委員，瞭解了……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們沒有辦法幫企業宣布事情，我們知道、我們可以講的都是企業對外公開……"],["主席：部長，你再用書面回答，不要再答了，時間已經超過很多了！"],["張委員啓楷：部長、部長、部長！鄭麗君講的是說你們採取分工，政府……"],["主席：張委員，時間到了！"],["張委員啓楷：有產業過去，你們要開始去調查嘛，對不對？"],["吳委員沛憶：尊重一下主席，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，所以我剛剛講1分鐘嘛！"],["主席：張委員，好了啦！好了啦！瞭解了！瞭解了！"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我剛剛要了四個指標，這是鄭麗君講的嘛，你一個禮拜內給我，好不好？"],["主席：部長瞭解了啦。"],["張委員啓楷：有多少資金出去？你不是說產業出去，然後你們負責去審核嗎？"],["主席：好了啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們不能幫企業宣布它的規劃，除非它自己……"],["主席：書面回答啦，你不要再回答了，書面回答啦，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：把你們鄭麗君現在的規劃給我，好不好？OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：重點是不要護國神山變半屏山，讓我們的晶片產業有一半出去，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳永康委員，陳永康委員，陳永康委員不在。","接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDat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麻煩請交通部長請陳部長部長好委員好部長我想來關心一下跟我們新北有關的建設一樣是太阪輕軌"},{"start":18.871,"end":47.539,"text":"我還是再重複一下太阪輕軌其實在您剛上任的時候我有跟您提過嘛有有有然後其實在您的前一任交通部長那個那時候是李孟彥我也跟他提過是我說這個在那個太阪輕軌是地方的期待雖然他連結在板橋連結泰山然後連結台鐵連結板南線然後我們一直希望說他速度可以快一點而且太阪輕軌是在前一任交通部長王國才在"},{"start":48.955,"end":62.866,"text":"張宏祿選舉的時候特別跑到張宏祿的選區說要一定會蓋色後直線結果太平洋經過的主線到目前為止可行性研究都還在公文往返"},{"start":64.252,"end":89.668,"text":"所以我們地方就會覺得說那交通部到底有沒有要核准這件事而且現在當然是公文這樣來來回回可是我一直覺得說如果交通部當時就已經承諾說一定要蓋其實交通部跟地方一起合作來把這個可行性研究一起把它完成這速度才會進那現在地方在提報這個可行性研究已經五次了已經五次了"},{"start":90.287,"end":93.417,"text":"那最近一次被退回據我了解是"},{"start":94.952,"end":120.808,"text":"今年的四月被退回嘛被退回的原因上次我也有問啊好像是因為交通部認為說太阪輕軌沿途開發的收益不能算在公司營運裡面嘛要他另外再找裁員去支撐公司的營運其實坦白說這件事情我也是覺得值得商榷啦為什麼因為地方財政如果自己覺得可以或者是地方他舉債有償還的其他的計畫交通部其實可以不用管但是不管怎麼樣"},{"start":121.949,"end":146.534,"text":"據我了解 新北市政府也努力去找了很多財源希望能夠符合交通部的 調教局的需求那我現在 其實只是想要拜託部長一件事啦就是 像這個你們在114年4月11號提出來這個財務的部分我不懂為什麼不能一開始就提就是 文來文往 文來文往每一次解決了一個問題之後就會產生新的問題"},{"start":147.731,"end":171.932,"text":"那如果新北市政府他解決了這個財務的計畫也符合你們的指標再送一次會不會體育局看一看又發現了另外一個問題那從此就沒完沒了我相信這個政策是中央地方的期待絕對沒有誰卡誰的問題我們現在講的是程序的問題所以假設他們很快又送了體育局覺得符合了會不會又找別的問題"},{"start":172.93,"end":187.41,"text":"報告委員您剛剛所提到的這個自償性的問題其實從一開始的每一次的修正都有提到那其實對於每一次的這個捷運系統或軌道系統的審查我的說法都一樣就是說我們的題目都一樣"},{"start":188.331,"end":207.908,"text":"答案其實也大概都知道不會不知道只要是照那個題目跟答案下去修正基本上是都會過這個沒有問題部長其實不是這樣啦因為基本上他要再送一定會把你們的提出來的問題都會回答啦不可能說你丟這個東西他假裝沒看到試試看有沒有可能有其他的都市曾經做過"},{"start":209.329,"end":236.32,"text":"只有換封面裡面全部沒換哪一個都市你現在可以譴責他但是我現在講的是太阪輕軌好了我們不要歪樓了好不好我覺得第一個速度第一個就是我希望說他們現在還是按照鐵道局給的意見還是送的不要應該不會有延伸性的問題嘛如果有可不可以趕快開會然後第二個因為現在都還在鐵道局的階段那個連交通委員會都還沒有開所以有沒有可能啦"},{"start":237.937,"end":261.232,"text":"條局就先比如說你先審查覺得沒問題你就送給交通部嘛交通部反正還要開委員會嘛那有什麼意見就委員會直接就給意見大家趕快避其功於一役不要這樣推來推去你看從112年5月3號到現在今年已經114年都已經兩年多了可行性研究都還沒都還沒有核定而且是交通部跟地方說要蓋"},{"start":262.433,"end":283.167,"text":"結果說因為可行性我還要打問號那你既然覺得可行性打問號當初怎麼會到地方說你要蓋呢這個中央地方沒有一條心嘛好不好部長可不可以調教局你看沒問題先送交通委員會來討論這樣速度會快一點嘛委員有問題就是交通委員會裡面提出來就不用一直這樣來來回回了嘛"},{"start":284.111,"end":306.771,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們就來加速啦我們部裡面這邊的審查包含這個鐵道局的審查我們盡量來加速怎麼加速因為每次講都說加速但是都沒有加速啊報告委員現在部長因為這個你們現在市政府還在修正馬上就會送了啦對我現在就馬上送我們就加速就是鐵道局審過了趕快送交通部開委員會可不可以"},{"start":308.23,"end":321.301,"text":"就看鐵道局這邊有沒有審過他們有審過的話都有一定的機制調局長講一下好不好這個跟委員報告啦剛剛講這個自償性其實背後就是運量的這個我都知道這個剛剛都講過這個還是要看新北市政府的報告內容我們再來做如果沒問題的話是"},{"start":324.764,"end":338.991,"text":"趕快送交通部嘛不會又去衍生其他問題啊當然好不好 謝謝那不然我再跟您請教一下因為新北市在跟您這邊交通部去申請那個捷運的補助的時候我知道交通部也沒有擋啦但是送到國發會後來就被砍了72%這事情你知道嗎"},{"start":342.305,"end":364.566,"text":"報告委員其實所有的都市都被砍很多現在的問題在哪裡你知道嗎現在問題就是中央都會講說因為你地方的同軸分配稅款增加所以我少給你一點錢是正常中央是這種態度但問題也只剩兩個問題第一個是其實這個錢之前都已經核定了所以本來核定的錢本來就可以編列第二個就算要砍也都沒有預告"},{"start":365.461,"end":386.101,"text":"就是他來跟你申請錢了你再告訴他說你被砍了72%這樣感覺大家都開盲盒你知道嗎就是說我來申請了我不知道我這個錢到時候我拿到多少會不會被砍我都不曉得然後我再去做因應保委員來申請透過審查本來就沒有說一定會給多少但以前比較不會出現這個狀況尤其是被砍72%砍72%因為這錢以前都核定了啦"},{"start":389.804,"end":403.385,"text":"我一直想說部長核定不表示每一年的撥款的狀況因為錢也不是交通部砍的國發會我只是想說不要讓地方覺得好像都好像跟開盲盒一樣其實你們事件可以溝通嘛"},{"start":404.295,"end":426.106,"text":"就像中央地方現在老師在講說因為你錢變地方錢變多所以我少給你錢可是事權剛剛可以事先討論討論大家就可以規劃新的財化法才剛開始明年度的預算才剛用新的財化法在做規劃所以這個部分還在變動當中我們也會找適當的時機點事權我們來跟地方政府來做討論會做討論好 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謝謝召委 那有請部長"},{"start":28.717,"end":47.795,"text":"部長好委員好那部長就在這段的10月啊那有很多的廉價那這個廉價我也知道部內以及相關包括公路局或高工局的同仁他也很用心的來協助這個交通的這個輸運的部分"},{"start":48.456,"end":69.446,"text":"那在南投縣那這次也很高興我們在南投建縣至今終於第一次有機會這個10月10號國慶煙火在南投是南投建縣以來國慶煙火在南投這次將近4萬多發的煙火那一定會非常的精彩"},{"start":70.046,"end":90.964,"text":"那所以在這段期間其實本席也跟就是局內不管高工局或公路局還也做了許多的一個運輸的溝通的會議那在這裡也要再次的做一個感謝那同樣的本席也想在這裡邀請部長10月10號國慶煙火在南投是不是部長也一起來參加"},{"start":92.325,"end":106.381,"text":"報告委員那天我在台北的時間比較多我來排排看如果有時間的話我會過去那如果可以的話邀請部長那同樣的在這一次的這個10月10號因為不僅是大家也在注目這個國慶焰火"},{"start":107.722,"end":129.949,"text":"本席也想在這裡也請不管部長或者是局長也可以把目前的那時候協調完的這個輸運方案還來跟我們的國民來報告一下還也趁這個機會我們來推廣一下國慶焰火那是不是可以間斷來說一下感謝委員來協助溝通這個輸運的計畫那輸運的計畫是我請高工局跟公務局來說明"},{"start":130.709,"end":146.23,"text":"是跟各位報告這一次的國慶煙火因為鄰近國三的南投交流道所以在10月10號從中午12點到24點因為南投交流道的這個南北兩巷的出口的閘道高速公路這邊會配合做封閉"},{"start":147.031,"end":169.745,"text":"那不過就是說開車族的話其實在鄰近南投交流道的前後包括這一個我們的草屯交流道中興交流道民間交流道南投縣政府這邊下交流道之後都有相關的接駁車可以接駁這個民眾來到這一個我們的煙火的地區那另外南投服務區大概就是說包括這個相關的一個便道有做相關的管制"},{"start":170.405,"end":195.211,"text":"那這一個這個路間的部分我們要特別提醒就是大家不要停在路間來觀看煙火因為這樣子的話會影響到這一個車流而且安全上也有相關的顧慮那這個到時候還有兩個一個觀看的點一個是在這個望來園區那一個是在易經大學都可以讓許多各地來的朋友都可以來那邊去做觀賞國慶煙火那至於剛才有提到的"},{"start":195.771,"end":213.601,"text":"也謝謝局長的時候特別協助南投縣政府在中寮服務區那那邊是有一個便道是可以來做開通那這個部分也要請局長到時候跟同仁跟跟都能夠落實這個到時候的開通讓雙向都能夠來進行那這個也要特別的麻煩局長沒問題吧是"},{"start":217.994,"end":233.123,"text":"好那因為這個公告的部分可能還需要再做一點修正但是這個部分相信是沒有問題的那同樣也再次也感謝那就是公路局這次也提供了800萬的補助跟觀光署也提供了500萬的一個補助那最後再補充就是說"},{"start":233.743,"end":257.548,"text":"因為當天的人潮會比較多那還是要請高空局這邊還配合國道警察在不管是國道6號的出口處還或是在八卦山隧道出來的這個出口處那車多的部分可能要再稍微協助一下那也期待著部長到時候時間上許可的話可以一起來因為同樣的相信這次的交通的運輸一定都是便利的"},{"start":258.668,"end":270.658,"text":"那同樣的在最後是提一下說這一件的話在高鐵的時間因為他晚上最後的班次是到11點嘛那有沒有可能因為這個人潮的部分能夠加開班次"},{"start":272.016,"end":291.204,"text":"這個部分我們來研究一下就是說他到時候散場之後人潮會往哪一個高鐵站來輸運有可能是彰化也有可能是台中這個部分我們是不是請高鐵公司也來做研究一下如果是有比較確定哪一個站有需要的話我們再來思考這個加班的可能性主要台中跟彰化"},{"start":294.627,"end":313.548,"text":"接著的話就是本席也接著就叫這個110我們這是新的這年度的總預算115年中央政府總預算交通部目前的預算來講應該是在整個編列上面是有短掃而知道這些錢在國防的預算反而是增加了938億"},{"start":314.969,"end":329.606,"text":"那我們看到了在南投目前之前交通部在協助南投線推動的這個台灣好行啊還有包括幸福巴士那這個其實對於南投偏鄉地方其實是都有蠻多注意啊"},{"start":329.906,"end":350.231,"text":"那在現在目前來講幸福巴士曲縣長也把竹山民間跟鹿谷三地都已經啟用在明年的部分那十三鄉鎮都會進行串聯那想就叫一下部長那在這個幸福巴士的這個補貼補助上面來講經費上是不是可以持續的維持南投的這個部分確保沒問題"},{"start":351.031,"end":374.827,"text":"報告委員在公共運輸的部分交通部會盡量來確保這方面的預算不過也要看最後預算的這個整體的額度的狀態那不過就是不管是這個巴士的電動化或者是對於公共運具的使用的這個補助包含這個TPAS等等的我們都會盡量來維持那您所提到的這個幸福巴士的部分我們也盡量想辦法來維持好謝謝"},{"start":375.828,"end":401.309,"text":"那因為在現在來講的話幾乎在明年今年的到差不多七鄉鎮已經完成了到明年六月的話十三鄉鎮的話都會整體來建置完畢那所以目前來講如果說交通部重大的交通預算還卻被移到國防預算來講的話其實在影響的是整個市場的內需跟大家的交通便利尤其是偏鄉這個交通運輸"},{"start":402.27,"end":430.789,"text":"那所以在這裡還是本席還是特別拜託部長還有局長在南投縣的這個許縣長的特別政績上步步共乘幸福巴士的部分一定要能夠落實啊那這個部分大家來努力想辦法好謝謝您那接著本席再接著針對內水日月潭的這個傳播電動化的部分因為本期在上個會期其實都有針對就是我們香港局局長這邊以及包括部長都有討論那如何讓這個電動化"},{"start":432.75,"end":453.016,"text":"在傳播的部分能夠有所進展有所進程那本席在上個會期也提出了希望能夠增加補貼那也希望能夠達到這個執行率的這個部分看這個會期成效如何那我想說藉這個部分是不是讓部長跟局長也讓大家說明一下本席關心的這半年來講的成果"},{"start":453.616,"end":466.952,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們這個日月潭的部分總共會有32艘那目前我們正在審議當中那我們也希望能夠盡量協助日月潭的這個船舶能夠電動化那局長要不要補充 細節的部分請局長"},{"start":468.627,"end":489.174,"text":"是謝謝委員的關心那跟委員報告就是說這次我們也在委員辦公室的協助下我們充分的跟樂壇的相關的業者來做溝通所以這次除了第一個就是升級跟汰換的49%的補助之外我們也對業者非常關心的這個電池的這個補助呢"},{"start":489.734,"end":518.147,"text":"那依照營運的階段分六年來做一次性的補助那這個當然要有實際的這個營運的時機來作為配套那其他包括電動裝的等等我們也在整個計畫都有完整的納入我想再次感謝委員的這個協助那事實上除了樂壇之外我們還有其他五個水域國內的五個水域一同來建立這個低碳的"},{"start":518.831,"end":519.358,"text":"觀光旅遊的環境"},{"start":520.748,"end":548.324,"text":"好那也謝謝局長那我知道你也下來好幾次那這次的話我記得如果說這樣子執行率跟上次的比例來講這次應該至少有增加到將近快要六成吧是是是各位不知道因為目前大概營運中的客船大概50艘左右那我們這次整個提升跟開放就達到32艘所以已經達到六成這樣的一個比例好那還希望持續來提升"},{"start":548.604,"end":552.756,"text":"好那就表達肯定也希望對後面的補助跟落實跟營運還在持續費心好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（13時53分）謝謝召委！有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好！10月這段期間有很多連假，我知道部內及相關單位包括公路局或高公局的同仁都很用心的來協助交通疏運，在南投縣，這次也很高興從南投建縣至今，終於第一次有機會在10月10號舉辦國慶焰火在南投，國慶焰火在南投有將近四萬多發的煙火，那一定會非常的精彩。所以在這段期間，其實本席跟局內不管是高公局或公路局也開了許多有關運輸的溝通會議，在這裡也要再次的表示感謝。同樣的，本席想要在這裡邀請部長，是不是於10月10號一起來參加國慶焰火在南投？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那天我在臺北的時間比較多，我來排排看，如果有時間的話，我會過去。"],["游委員顥：好，如果可以的話，邀請部長。這一次的10月10號，因為大家都在注目著國慶焰火，所以本席想在這裡請不管是部長或者是局長，可以把那時候協調完的疏運方案來跟我們的國民報告一下，也趁這個機會來推廣一下國慶焰火。是不是可以簡短說一下？"],["陳部長世凱：感謝委員來協助溝通這個疏運的計畫，相關疏運計畫是不是請高公局跟公路局來說明？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，這一次的國慶焰火因為鄰近國三的南投交流道，所以10月10號從中午12點到24點，南投交流道南北兩向的出口閘道，高速公路這邊會配合封閉，不過對開車族而言，其實鄰近南投交流道前後包括草屯交流道、中興交流道、名間交流道這邊下交流道之後，南投縣政府都設有相關的接駁車，可以接駁民眾來到我們的煙火地區。另外，南投服務區包括相關的便道也有做相關的管制。至於路肩的部分，我們要特別提醒，就是大家不要停在路肩觀看煙火，因為這樣子的話會影響到車流，而且安全上也有相關的顧慮。"],["游委員顥：到時候還有兩個觀看的點，一個是在旺來園區，一個是在易經大學，都可以讓許多各地來的朋友在那邊觀賞國慶焰火。剛剛有提到的也要謝謝局長那時候特別協助南投縣政府在中寮服務區那邊有一個便道可以來做開通，這個部分到時候要請局長跟同仁能夠落實開通，讓雙向都能夠進行，這個部分也要特別麻煩局長。沒問題吧？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們跟縣政府已經協調好了。"],["游委員顥：好，因為這個公告的部分可能還需要再做一點修正，但是這個部分相信是沒有問題的。那同樣也要再次感謝，就是公路局這次提供了800萬元的補助，觀光署也提供了500萬元的補助。最後要再補充，因為當天的人潮會比較多，所以還是要請高公局這邊配合國道警察，在不管是國道六號的出口處還是在八卦山隧道出來的出口處，車多的部分可能要再稍微協助一下。也期待部長到時候時間上許可的話可以一起來，相信這次的交通運輸一定都是便利的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：最後再提一下高鐵的時間，因為高鐵的最晚班次是晚上11點，那有沒有可能因為這個人潮的部分加開班次？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們來研究一下散場之後人潮會往哪個高鐵站來疏運，有可能是彰化也有可能是台中，這個部分我們是不是請高鐵公司也來研究一下，如果比較確定是哪一個站有需要的話，我們再來思考加班的可能性。"],["游委員顥：主要是臺中跟彰化？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["游委員顥：接著本席要就教的是這次新年度的總預算即115年度中央政府總預算，以交通部目前的預算來講，在整個編列上應該是有短少，在國防的預算反而是增加了938億元，我們看到之前交通部協助南投縣推動的「台灣好行」還有包括「幸福巴士」等，這些其實對於南投偏鄉地方都有滿多助益的，目前來講，許縣長在竹山、名間跟鹿谷等3地都已經啟用幸福巴士，到明年的時候，13鄉鎮都會進行串聯。想請教部長的是，在幸福巴士的補助經費上，是不是可以持續維持南投這個部分確保沒問題？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在公共運輸的部分，交通部會儘量來確保這方面的預算，不過也要看最後預算的整體額度狀態，不管是巴士的電動化或者是對於公共運具使用的補助，包含TPASS等等，我們都會儘量來維持，您所提到的幸福巴士的部分，我們也儘量想辦法來維持。"],["游委員顥：謝謝！在現在來講的話，今年差不多有7個鄉鎮已經完成了，到明年6月的話，13個鄉鎮都會整體建置完畢，所以如果交通部重大的交通預算卻被移到國防預算的話，其實影響的是整個市場的內需跟大家的交通便利，尤其是偏鄉的交通運輸，所以在這裡本席還是要特別拜託部長還有局長，在南投縣許縣長這個特別的政績「噗噗共乘幸福巴士」的部分一定要能夠落實。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來努力想辦法。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝您。","接著本席要針對日月潭的內水船舶電動化部分請教部長，因為本席在上個會期其實都有與航港局局長包括部長討論過，如何讓船舶電動化的部分能夠有所進展、有所進程。本席在上個會期也提議希望能夠增加補貼，也希望能夠在這個會期看看達到執行率部分的成效如何，我想藉這個機會，是不是讓部長跟局長跟大家說明一下本席關心的這半年來的成果。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，日月潭在這個部分總共會有32艘，目前正在審議當中，我們也希望能夠儘量協助日月潭的船舶能夠電動化，細節的部分請局長說明。"],["游委員顥：局長要不要補充？"],["葉局長協隆：謝謝委員的關心，跟委員報告，這次我們在委員辦公室的協助下充分地跟日月潭的相關業者來做溝通，所以這次除了升級跟汰換的49%的補助之外，我們也對業者非常關心的電池補助依照營運的階段，分6年來做一次性的補助，這個部分當然要有實際的營運實績來作為配套。其他包括電動樁等等，我們在整個計畫中也都有完整的納入，再次感謝委員的協助。事實上除了日月潭之外，我們國內還有其他5個水域會一同來建立低碳的觀光旅遊環境。"],["游委員顥：謝謝局長，我知道你也下來好幾次，這次的話，如果以這樣子的執行率跟上次相較，這次應該至少增加到將近六成吧？"],["葉局長協隆：是，跟委員報告，目前營運中的客船大概是50艘左右，這次提升跟汰換的數目就達到32艘，所以已經達到六成這樣的一個比例，我們希望持續來提升。"],["游委員顥：本席對此表達肯定，也希望你們對後面的補助落實跟營運還要持續費心。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們繼續努力。謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員，發言完畢。","現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","現在請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","現在請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","現在請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff04d15337a0ff3f3a341e1338d15ff711a441e0052ed6558bbb67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:46:35 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開放的這個場域來接受相關的這個委管的權責所以我們現在會原則上朝這個這樣的一個方案來去做進行"},{"start":142.709,"end":166.272,"text":"所以局長就是說因為我們那次在嘉義就有談過部分開放因為主要是維管費用非常高那我在當時我也是有一點覺得說自紅池因為它可能有自紅的功能但是你知道自紅池周邊的草皮的維護是很辛苦的所以我事實上我要跟局長討論的就是說我們這個車輛基地基本上"},{"start":167.372,"end":193.339,"text":"站在水上的立場他們原本是不歡迎車輛基地那後來經過好長的努力我們也告訴他也許這個車輛基地他可以帶來另外的鐵道迷會很喜歡來的地方他可能是一個車輛修復的一個場域這個還是有他的客群而且這個客群都是很鐵的 死忠的死忠的會去看這些鐵道所以我覺得如果我們整個"},{"start":196.961,"end":207.251,"text":"設計這個車輛基地那這一個場域的部分未來要給大家可以去參觀的場域就只有志鴻池的周邊老實說我覺得不夠"},{"start":208.342,"end":234.373,"text":"我們能不能再設計一些空間出來讓未來車輛基地它在修復火車的修復火車的過程中可以讓這些鐵道民去看去看那些財富的修復火車當然在動線上要必須做好分流的管制就是說他們是透過玻璃櫥窗的方式去看火車不去干擾實際的修復的過程"},{"start":235.854,"end":258.756,"text":"我是覺得我們應該朝向這樣來努力我們野心放大一點讓這個車輛基地它讓水上的鄉親之所以會去並不是因為我這裡有一個滯洪池那滯洪池周邊有一些一些藝術景觀然後這個池水池跟滯洪池所以有水很漂亮我覺得這樣比較沒差"},{"start":262.006,"end":275.997,"text":"這個謝謝委員的這個寶貴意見我想這個因為涉及到未來台鐵公司他們實際在這裡面做維修作業的時候相關的一些作業需求我們後面再來這個方向來做研究台鐵公司應該不反對吧台鐵公司董事長照我剛剛的這樣的一個說法台鐵公司"},{"start":286.246,"end":314.295,"text":"我們來研究看看看是不是可以比照類似潮州基地那樣的一個方式啦可能規模沒有那麼大但是也是有一點觀光的這個味道對我們那邊規模當然不是那麼大但是它就是一個車輛基地嘛那我之所以會認為說你看為什麼我們在這裡還要投入這一個公共藝術的預算就是說我們希望說未來的公共工程不要只是公共工程"},{"start":315.647,"end":339.666,"text":"工程它本身也有很多建築物的美要把它呈現出來然後如果這是測量基地的話它同時又帶有更多人文的氣質這些東西實在都是要發展觀光很重要的元素交通部不能夠我們只是為了蓋建築物而蓋建築物我們如果把這一些帶動觀光的元素都放進去這個測量基地以後"},{"start":342.068,"end":354.361,"text":"他可以把一個大家原本以為地方靈畢設施轉化成說一個最好的一個親民 大家可以走走 踏青的一個好地方"},{"start":355.745,"end":375.818,"text":"這個 委員這個建議我們來仔細的來評估 而且我們地方政府也願意負擔部分的維管費用地方政府 嘉義縣政府也有做出這樣的承諾接下來就是看鐵道局跟台鐵公司一起來支持讓水上這個車輛基地不只是車輛基地是一個觀光的場域這樣好不好"},{"start":376.24,"end":381.589,"text":"好 我們來研究 朝這方向來進行朝這方面啦 別研究 朝這方面進行就對了不要這句話啦 朝那句話好啦 拜託 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時46分）謝謝主席！我們是不是有請交通部陳部長和鐵道局楊局長？"],["主席：好，陳部長、楊局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想透過今天的質詢再跟部長聊一下我們嘉義鐵道高架化公共藝術的設置，基於文化藝術獎助促進條例第十五條，在辦理重大公共工程的時候，應該要兼顧公共藝術以及營造美學環境，且辦理經費不能少於該建築物公共造價的1%，我們知道嘉義的鐵路高架化橫跨嘉義市以及嘉義縣，在嘉義縣的部分大概就是在水上的北迴車站以及車輛基地，我想要請教部長或者局長也可以來回答，即未來包括水上的北迴車站跟車輛基地，我們的公共藝術要怎麼來安排？"],["陳部長世凱：我是不是請局長說明？"],["蔡委員易餘：沒問題。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，非常感謝委員在8月份有給我們指導，我們現在的規劃會把水上基地的滯洪池未來加以景觀化，可以提供當地民眾作為簡單的一個……"],["蔡委員易餘：車輛基地的滯洪池？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個應該是原始的工程建設，應該不屬於公共藝術這一環。"],["楊局長正君：但是將來會在這個地方做相關的景觀跟……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是說可能會在滯洪池之外去搭配一些另外的景觀工程？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，OK，那繼續。"],["楊局長正君：因為對這個滯洪池，委員也有指導，就是全區開放跟部分區域開放這兩個方案涉及到未來委管權責跟經費，也感謝委員過去幫我們協調，未來嘉義縣政府願意接受這個部分開放場域相關的委管權責，所以我們現在原則上會朝這樣的一個方案去進行。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們那次在嘉義就有談過部分開放的方案，因為主要是委管費用非常高，我在當時也有一點覺得滯洪池可能還有滯洪的功能，但是你知道滯洪池周邊草皮的維護是很辛苦的，所以事實上我要跟局長討論的就是我們這個車輛基地，基本上站在水上的立場，他們原本是不歡迎車輛基地，後來經過好長的努力，我們也告訴他們也許這個車輛基地可以帶來另外的、成為鐵道迷會很喜歡來的地方，它可能是一個車輛修復的場域，這個還是有它的客群，而且這個客群都是很鐵的、死忠的，這些死忠的鐵道迷會去看這些鐵道。所以我覺得如果我們這個車輛基地的整個設計，未來要給大家可以去參觀的場域就只有滯洪池的周邊，老實說我覺得不夠，我們能不能再設計一些空間出來，把未來車輛基地修復火車的過程開放給這些鐵道迷參觀，去看那些師傅如何修復火車，當然在動線上必須做好分流管制，就是說讓他們以透過玻璃櫥窗的方式去看火車，不去干擾實際的修復過程，我覺得我們應該朝向這樣來努力，野心放大一點，讓水上的鄉親之所以會去這個車輛基地並不是因為這裡有一個滯洪池，滯洪池周邊有一些藝術景觀，然後這個滯洪池的池水很漂亮，我覺得這樣比較不值。"],["楊局長正君：謝謝委員這個寶貴意見，因為這涉及到未來臺鐵公司實際在這裡面進行維修作業時相關的一些作業需求，我們後面再來朝這個方向做研究。"],["蔡委員易餘：照我剛剛這樣的說法，臺鐵公司應該也不反對吧？"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們來研究看看，看是不是可以比照類似潮州基地那樣的一個方式，可能規模沒有那麼大，但也是有一點觀光的味道。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我們那邊的規模當然不是那麼大，它就是一個車輛基地嘛！為什麼我們在這裡還要投入這個公共藝術的預算，就是因為我們希望未來的公共工程不要只是公共工程，公共工程本身也有很多建築物的美，要把它呈現出來。然後又因為這是車輛基地，它同時又帶有更多人文的氣質，這些東西實在都是發展觀光很重要的元素，交通部不能夠只是為了蓋建築物而蓋建築物，我們如果能把這些帶動觀光的元素都放進去的話，這個車輛基地以後可以把一個大家原本以為是地方的鄰避設施而轉化成一個最親民、大家可以去那邊走走踏青的好地方。"],["鄭董事長光遠：對委員這個建議，我們會仔細的朝這個方向來評估。"],["蔡委員易餘：而且我們地方政府也願意負擔部分的委管費用，地方政府嘉義縣政府也有做出這樣的承諾啊！接下來就是請鐵道局跟臺鐵公司一起來支持，讓水上這個車輛基地不止是車輛基地，同時也是一個觀光的場域。好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：好，我們來研究，朝這個方向來進行。"],["蔡委員易餘：不要研究，朝這方面進行就對了。好啦！拜託！謝謝！謝謝部長！"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，發言完畢。","接下來請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","現在請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0eb8216bc692260af2b1f00580874b155441e0052ed6558bba58ef45d272994b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"14:03:13 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有請這個海委會這個管組委還有海巡署管組委還有海巡署張署長"},{"start":32.378,"end":62.158,"text":"沈委員好主委好 署長好因為是特別預算所以它有一定的急迫性跟緊急性是在這幾天第一個這是一個這是James Tang的報告他有提到中國海洋石油最近在做干擾因為它離我們所謂的東沙的距離限制水域其實非常的近那算是一個又是一個比較新型態的灰色地帶的干擾模式"},{"start":63.179,"end":79.541,"text":"當然我們最近已經在政院提出了這個海欄七法當然某種程度可以遏止跟這些電纜等等相關的一些問題還有這個還有光纖那針對這一個就是這個比較新型態針對這種專遊船等等的這些的干擾目前的掌握的狀況到底如何"},{"start":80.328,"end":102.125,"text":"跟委員報告有關於專警平台目前我們是維持監控那有關於這個議題跨部會的機制都有建立起來那站在國安的立場我們第一個我們當然非常嚴厲的來譴責中國在這樣的一個海域裡面從事這個行為"},{"start":104.167,"end":120.162,"text":"雖然說各方面的考量我們在具體的行動上面我們以說監控為主雖然是以監控為主但是基本上我們保持非常非常高度的一個檢測持續會這樣子的來監控下去"},{"start":127.111,"end":145.318,"text":"因為這個我比較擔心的事情是因為就除了這一個剛剛講的這一個鑽油的這一個部署之外它好像也有在測試我看到7月16號 9月13號他們都有去做這些干擾這個東沙水域的行動那因為我看這一個所以一直到這幾天都還有"},{"start":147.139,"end":170.233,"text":"對,剛好這幾天會讓我覺得比較concern的地方就是因為以往一個月三、四次可能差不多但這一次這幾天等於是連續了好幾天13號、14號、15號、16號雖然說以一整個月來講這個頻率可能因為它後半段可能沒有但是它那個集中程度可能跟過往又已經不太一樣這也是讓我覺得蠻急迫的一個原因"},{"start":171.312,"end":185.4,"text":"最近在東沙的襲擾我們確實有發現說頻率比較密集尤其是過去很可能它沒有完成一圈的襲擾但是這一次兩艘船連續並等於是兩艘船編隊繞了兩圈我們才驅離出去"},{"start":192.003,"end":218.069,"text":"接下來很快的又有另外一艘海警船持續進來限制水域洗漏我們有發現平次是比較密集因為我們雙十國慶即將要來到所以在這種時候我們都會有專案維持更高度的警戒所以針對東沙的這一次我們有加派一艘大艦等於是在這兩次的洗擾當中"},{"start":221.05,"end":235.692,"text":"我們是用兩艘大艦這樣的量能來做監控這些部分我們都感覺到非常的困擾中國在灰色洗腦的部分他們很多樣性的不斷的翻新他們的手法"},{"start":236.212,"end":263.202,"text":"譬如說最近有一些新的發展譬如說如果說是以中國的船隻它擱淺了以後如果它失去動力的話那需要中國那邊想要來做拖船的方式把它拖回去等等我們也都不排除把這一種在我們的海域製造某種程度的有限度的海難然後要由他們的"},{"start":264.902,"end":281.821,"text":"甚至於他們的公務船要來到我們的海域去處理等等這種我們都保持高度的警戒都有在防範這些事情被當作是灰色洗腦的手段好 謝謝主委那我就追問兩個小細節就是說當然第一個就是我看到就是說他們這次這個閩獅魚"},{"start":283.743,"end":298.691,"text":"他這個在喬裝的過程當中他等於是類似是他們海警局的船然後又裝作是他們這一個等於是他本來應該是民兵的這個背景然後假裝是執法的船就是我們過往看到的都是倒過來的就是他明"},{"start":299.471,"end":319.361,"text":"明明是它有執法的量能那它偽裝成是一般民用但這一次我看到報告裡面有提到說有這兩艘它彼此在切換的時候有一艘它本來就是本來是中國這個海警局裡面的船那這樣的一個偵測對這一個海巡署來講有沒有造成比較多的困擾因為這種AIS的它這個切換這個模式越來越多元"},{"start":320.305,"end":337.831,"text":"跟委員報告經過這個報導以後我們有回溯去了解並還沒有找到說中國的漁船它用假冒的AS來假冒成為是俄羅斯的船我們有看到說這兩艘船確實是有"},{"start":338.351,"end":357.771,"text":"用兩組以上有一艘船是用兩組仿冒的AIS有一艘船是用三組這個AIS但是他們仿造的是仿冒的一艘是仿冒海警船中國的海警船另外一艘是仿冒漁船所以沒有找到仿冒俄羅斯船的這個AIS的狀況"},{"start":359.913,"end":387.868,"text":"我們持續會做資訊的交流我們後續還會再更釐清這個案件目前這個案件我們還沒有查到說它是仿冒俄羅斯的軍艦我們查到的是仿冒中國的海警船因為時間關係我們的修法很重要我們的船舶法有在修對於AIS這樣的一個偽造偽冒的狀態我們有新的法案送進來立法院了"},{"start":388.408,"end":416.39,"text":"對就是我希望這個傳播法的修法對於他沒有去遵照就是沒有如實的去告知他正確的身份跟位置這個以後可能是要處罰的那希望能夠給這一個海巡單位有一個執法的手段這第一個但第二個就是因為新型態實在太多了所以需要新的設備需要這個新的monitor的方式剛剛講說要監測嘛這個監測在這個特別預算裡面到底是哪裡能夠去增加這個量呢希望明天在討論的時候能夠跟國人說明"},{"start":416.53,"end":431.621,"text":"我們在最近扣留的越界漁船上面也發現了民兵在上面那這些我們都有保持監控之中好 謝謝謝謝沈博亮委員好 主委請回接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1645,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（14時3分）謝謝主席，有請海委會管主委和海巡署署長。"],["主席：請管主委和海巡署張署長。"],["管主任委員碧玲：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：主委好、署長好。因為是特別預算，所以它有一定的急迫性和緊急性，在這幾天，這是Jamestown的報告，它有提到「中國海洋石油」最近做干擾，因為它離東沙限制水域的距離非常近，算是一個新型態灰色地帶的干擾模式，當然，最近政院已經提出了海纜七法，某種程度可以遏止這些電纜、光纖等等相關的問題，對於這個比較新型態、針對鑽油船的干擾，目前掌握的狀況到底如何？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，有關於鑽井平臺，目前我們是維持監控，有關於這個議題，跨部會的機制都有建立起來，站在國安的立場，第一，我們當然非常嚴厲的來譴責中國在這樣的海域從事這個行為。雖然基於各方面的考量，我們在具體的行動上以監控為主，但是基本上我們保持非常高度的監測，會持續監控下去。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我比較擔心的是，除了剛剛講的鑽油的部署之外，它好像也有在測試，我看到7月16日、9月13日他們都有干擾東沙水域的行動。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，一直到這幾天都還有。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，就剛好這幾天，讓我比較擔心的地方是以往1個月可能差不多3、4次，這幾天等於是連續好幾天，13日、14日、15日、16日，雖然以一整個月來講頻率差不多，因為後半段可能沒有，但是集中程度可能跟過往已經不一樣，這也是讓我覺得滿急迫的一個原因。"],["管主任委員碧玲：最近在東沙的襲擾，我們確實有發現頻率比較密集，尤其是過去它可能沒有完成一圈的襲擾，但是這次兩艘船編隊繞了2圈我們才驅離出去，接下來很快的又有另外一艘海警船持續進來限制水域襲擾，我們有發現頻次比較密集，因為我們雙十國慶即將來到，所以在這個時候我們都會有專案然後維持更高度的警戒，所以針對東沙這次的狀況，我們有加派1艘大艦，在這兩次的襲擾當中，我們是用2艘大艦的量能來做監控，這些部分我們都感覺到非常的困擾，中國在灰色襲擾的部分，他們很多樣性、不斷的翻新他們的手法，在最近有一些新的發展，例如中國的船隻擱淺以後，如果它失去動力的話，需要中國那邊以拖船的方式拖回去等等，我們也都不排除把這種在我們海域製造某種程度、有限度的海難……"],["沈委員伯洋：後續的處理也變成他們的武器。"],["管主任委員碧玲：甚至他們的公務船來到我們海域的處理等等，像這種情形我們都保持高度的警戒，都有在防範這些事情被當作是灰色襲擾的手段。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主委，最後我追問兩個小細節，第一個，我看到這次「閩獅漁」在喬裝的過程當中，它等於類似他們海警局的船，本來是民兵的背景，假裝是執法的船，過往看到的都是倒過來，明明它有執法的量能，它偽裝成是一般民用，這次我看到報告裡面提到這兩艘彼此在切換的時候，有一艘本來就是中國海警局的船，這樣的偵測對於海巡署來講，有沒有造成比較多的困擾？因為AIS的切換模式越來越多元。"],["管主任委員碧玲：經過報導以後，我們有回溯去了解，還沒有找到中國漁船用假冒的AIS來假冒成為俄羅斯的船，我們有看到這兩艘船確實是有用兩組以上AIS，有一艘船用2組仿冒的AIS，一艘船是用3組AIS，但是它們1艘是仿造中國的海警船，另外1艘是仿冒漁船，所以沒有找到仿冒俄羅斯船AIS的狀況，我們持續會做資訊的交流，我們後續還會再更釐清這個案件，目前這個案件我們還沒有查到它仿冒俄羅斯的軍艦，我們查到的是仿冒中國的海警船。所以我們的修法很重要，我們的船舶法有在修，對於AIS的偽冒，我們有新的法案送進來立法院了，希望能夠得到支持。"],["沈委員伯洋：我希望船舶法的修法對於沒有如實告知它正確的身分和位置，以後可能是要處罰的，希望能夠讓海巡單位有執法的手段，這是第一個。第二個，因為新型態實在太多了，所以需要新的設備、需要新的監測方式，剛剛講到監測，這個監測在特別預算裡面到底是哪裡能夠偵查這個量能，希望在明天討論的時候能夠跟國人說明。"],["管主任委員碧玲：像我們在最近扣留的越界漁船上面也發現有民兵在上面，對這些我們都有保持監控。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，主委請回。","接下來請林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員不在。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163949","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163949","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0cbae0046937ecbe12b1f00580874b155441e0052ed6558bb3ff16b6b2a727ff65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"13:54:54 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麻煩請國防部長請顧部長"},{"start":21.285,"end":37.01,"text":"部長好部長這一次我們針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算的部分我們在行政院提出的這個國安任性特別預算裡面總共5700億那我們國防的部分就佔了1132億可是我們看到"},{"start":44.232,"end":46.854,"text":"因為首先因為這個時間很倉促我們在很短的時間框出這麼大的一筆預算可是我們在送進來的這些相關的資料裡面發現很多的問題一方面它非常的混亂"},{"start":60.583,"end":63.927,"text":"因為包括主計單位跟一些需求單位其實他們送出來的數量數字其實大概都搭不上來所以我想這個裡面還存在很多問題而且這個編列的裡面我想提出幾個來請部長大概就這些部分其實還可以做一些檢討"},{"start":80.666,"end":99.955,"text":"我們應該要把錢花在刀口上尤其我們國防預算難得如果說我們有這樣的經費應該要用在對的地方那特別預算是針對有特殊的狀況或需求或者政務的需要特別編的而且甚至裡面有很多是舉債的那如果說我們隨便亂用我覺得這個會對不起我們很多納稅人的這個我們的民脂民膏"},{"start":106.778,"end":121.745,"text":"首先我們提幾個來看國防部含所屬的特別預算案裡面在兩年內你要執行大概400個案子國防部他核心的工作在這一次的韌性預算裡面他主要是強化韌性一直強調韌性可是我們看到預算的內容"},{"start":126.227,"end":153.889,"text":"比如說你對於彈藥庫還有裝備的庫房作戰中心等等如果你要做這些的整建所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固防震防爆應該是做這些可是我們看到的是你是換掉舊的設備買新的大型的LED的螢幕高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備甚至會議室有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達五萬塊"},{"start":155.39,"end":157.831,"text":"訂製一個會議桌就要250萬兩個會議室這樣的會議桌要500萬我們覺得非常不可思議那像在囤儲一些我們的戰備用水我們現在買的水一瓶公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢可是我們在這一次要買的水特別有不同的規格"},{"start":178.755,"end":189.197,"text":"我們買到一瓶120塊等於是我們現在買的12倍以上所以你編了8億將近8億的錢我們看到這些林林總總我現在講的這個裡面還有很多我們提出這幾個還有很多的單位他把錢拿來鋪馬路甚至有造橋蓋鋼棚還有防水設施換門窗電力設施換新整修游泳池"},{"start":206.521,"end":213.686,"text":"這個都是很多靶場也是近三年內我們公務預算才整修完成結果你現在又納入特別預算還是重複的同樣的靶場所以我們不知道說為什麼這些預算可以這樣編可以這樣用那這些部分還有一個因為時間的關係我先把它提出來"},{"start":225.854,"end":228.718,"text":"就是在這個資通作業環境跟設備的部分總共編了673億可是這673億裡面有很多他做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備跟大量的民用資通訊設備跟軟體"},{"start":242.917,"end":261.375,"text":"這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做而且現在也還在做可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億 將近700億都在做這些而且很多的錢還是拿來付那個授權費他的授權費三年 三年後咧再編好幾百億嗎"},{"start":265.157,"end":274.963,"text":"所以就這幾個非常不合理的地方我們好不容易如果國防預算有增加第一我們希望可以增加我們所有國軍的福利當我們需要給國軍加急或加薪的時候希望可以落實第二每一個每一分錢我們也希望他用在對的地方像剛剛我提到的你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池這是應該放在特別預算的嗎"},{"start":293.427,"end":320.074,"text":"部長要不要簡單回應說明泳池我看我的了解是因為一物一的部分我們要做相關的泳訓部長那是他們的說明他每個泳池都拿出來做整建而且有部長如果你要做我們不反對他應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算我剛剛講的這些其實他在公務預算有很多都可以做你不是用特別預算拿來做這些"},{"start":321.584,"end":345.489,"text":"我想跟委員報告整個大方向來看是整件褲子設置訓場的環境這些都是為了我們一方面是大量的這些武器的跟彈藥囤儲的需求那一方面為了後備戰力的改革跟恢復一年級義務役的實戰化訓練所需要相關細節有關委員指摘的部分我後製室要不要說明一下"},{"start":346.849,"end":368.055,"text":"我想沒關係部長我們在體驗上面有提出來剛剛你說像一年起的義務役一年起的義務役不是現在突然有的你這個預算是現在編的我們現在說的你包括剛剛我說的整建或者其他的支出我們認為如果你有需要你也可以編可是你應該編在公務預算你特別預算應該用在什麼樣的地方剛剛蓋馬路什麼的防射防水這個都不是應該做的"},{"start":375.777,"end":397.063,"text":"而且有很多特規的東西或者像把我們所有軍人還有我們去軍醫院去看病的這些個資如果他的雲端資料必須放在境外應該讓國人很清楚的知道這部分我們在討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討好不好好 謝謝委員的意思是"},{"start":402.725,"end":415.777,"text":"部長你那個是不是就是會後之後再請那個對我想委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回覆的話那我們就在討論的時候再說如果主席可以讓你回覆的話當然也可以我想整個的"},{"start":419.485,"end":438.979,"text":"就國土防衛能量的部分假設我們用一般的作業維持費你要來看的話那你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關在庫存的設施在靶場我們的費用是多少那我們有辦法在有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內來集中大量的來集中資源快速來籌建相關的庫存設備跟訓場環境這是我們現在提出來認為急迫的地方"},{"start":443.882,"end":469.138,"text":"部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括拔廠設施包括拔廠設施我再提醒部長一次包括拔廠設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我想我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的資料我們可以詳細來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的 謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好"},{"start":473.541,"end":491.197,"text":"但是我還是要說明這個委員的旨在並不確實好不好OK 好 謝謝這個資料你們自己看清楚好 麥委員謝謝你也謝謝部長接下來請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1619,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（13時54分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國防部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，這一次針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算的部分，行政院提出的國安韌性特別預算總共有5,700億，其中國防的部分就占了1,132億，可是我們看到因為時間很倉促，你們在很短的時間內框出這麼大的一筆預算，可是我們在送進來的這些相關資料裡面發現很多問題，一方面它非常混亂，包括主計單位跟一些需求單位，其實他們送出來的數量、數字大概都搭不上來，所以我想這裡面還存在很多問題。針對編列的部分，我想提出幾個問題請部長就這些部分再做一些檢討，我們應該要把錢花在刀口上，尤其我們國防預算很難得，如果有這樣的經費，應該要用在對的地方。特別預算是針對特殊的狀況或需求，或者是基於政務的需要特別編的，甚至裡面有很多是舉債的，如果我們隨便亂用，我覺得會對不起很多納稅人的民脂民膏。","首先我們提幾個部分來看，針對國防部含所屬的特別預算案，在兩年內你要執行大概四百個案子，關於國防部核心的工作，在這一次的韌性預算裡面，他主要是強化韌性，一直強調韌性，可是我們看到預算的內容，比如對於彈藥庫、裝備的庫房、作戰中心等等，如果你要做這些的整建，所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固、防震、防爆，應該是做這些才對，可是我們看到的是，你換掉舊的設備，買新的大型LED螢幕、高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備，甚至有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達5萬塊，訂製一個會議桌就要250萬，兩個會議室這樣子的會議桌要花500萬，我們覺得非常不可思議。像屯儲戰備用水，我們現在買的水公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢，可是這一次要買的水有特別不同的規格，竟然買到一瓶120塊，等於是我們現在買的12倍以上，所以你編列將近8億的錢。我們看到這些林林總總，我現在講的這個裡面還有很多，還有很多單位把錢拿來鋪馬路，甚至有造橋、蓋鋼桶，還有防水設施、換門窗、電力設施換新、整修游泳池，很多靶場也是近三年內以公務預算才整修完成，結果你現在又納入特別預算，還是重複同樣的靶場，我們不知道為什麼這些預算可以這樣編、可以這樣用？因為時間的關係，我先把它提出來，還有一個就是在資通作業環境及設備的部分總共編了673億，可是在這673億裡面，有很多它做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備以及大量的民用資通訊設備及軟體，這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做，而且現在也還在做，可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億，將近700億都在做這些，而且很多的錢還是拿來付授權費，它的授權費三年，請問三年後呢？還要再編好幾百億嗎？","就這幾個非常不合理的地方，好不容易國防預算有增加，第一，我們希望可以增加所有國軍的福利，當我們需要給國軍加給或加薪的時候，希望可以落實。第二，每一分錢我們都希望用在對的地方，像剛剛我提到的，你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池，這是應該放在特別預算的嗎？部長要不要簡單回應說明？"],["顧部長立雄：關於泳池，我的了解是因為義務役的部分要做相關的泳訓，這也是訓場環境的一部分。"],["馬委員文君：部長，那是他們的說明，他們把每個游泳池都拿出來整建，如果你要做，我們不反對，它應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算，我剛剛講的這些其實在公務預算有很多都可以做，不是拿特別預算來做這些。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，整個大方向來看是整建庫存設施和訓場的環境，這些都是為了我們一方面大量的武器和彈藥屯儲的需求，一方面為了後備戰力的改革和恢復一年期義務役的實戰化訓練所需要，相關細節有關委員指摘的部分，後次室要不要說明一下？"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，部長，我們在提案上面也有提出來，剛剛你說一年期的義務役，一年期義務役不是現在突然有的，你這個預算是現在編的，我們現在說的，包括剛剛我說的整建或其他的支出，我們認為如果你有需要也可以編，可是你應該編在公務預算，特別預算應該用在什麼地方？蓋馬路、房舍防水這些都不是應該做的，而且有很多特規的東西，或者像我們所有軍人去軍醫院看病的這些個資，如果它的雲端資料必須放在境外，應該讓國人很清楚的知道，這個部分在我們討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討，好不好？部長還要說明嗎？"],["主席：部長，會後請相關單位跟委員說明。"],["顧部長立雄：委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回復的話，我們就在討論提案的時候再來說明。"],["馬委員文君：如果主席可以讓你回復的話，當然也可以。"],["主席：就到委員的辦公室說明。"],["顧部長立雄：就國土防衛能量的部分，假設我們用一般的作業維持費來看的話，你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關庫存的設施、靶場的費用是多少，我們有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內集中資源快速來籌建相關庫存設備和訓場環境，這是我們現在提出認為急迫的地方。"],["馬委員文君：部長，如果不浪費，它就可以做得到，我剛剛說的包括靶場設施，甚至我再提醒部長一次，包括靶場設施，我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的，這次又放到特別預算裡面，回去可以看一下，請他們詳細報告。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們沒有重複，也沒有浪費，對委員的指教，我們可以詳細跟委員說明。"],["主席：部長，我想馬委員……"],["馬委員文君：部長，請你看一下，這個資料很清楚，謝謝。"],["主席：針對馬委員的疑問，請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細答復，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是，但是我還是要說明，委員的指摘並不確實。"],["馬委員文君：這個資料你們自己看清楚。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員，也謝謝部長。","接下來請陳昭姿委員，陳昭姿委員，陳昭姿委員不在。","接下來請沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff04cca9667da836a382b1f00580874b15590b149bf9762da9240d0ad8028109d995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"13:47:59 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主席有請內政部長請劉部長內政部"},{"start":24.867,"end":40.083,"text":"部長好,華佳沙颱風除了造成馬太安的災情以外,不知道部長有沒有關心我們南橫,也就是大概一百六十幾K,直到兩百K,我們海端鄉的路段的部分,有沒有聽到一些消息?"},{"start":41.324,"end":62.447,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們主持的畫家沙颱風包括花蓮艷澀湖的部分其實在台東都有提高警戒我知道說到最後兩三天的時候仍然有些路段的部分因為段路的部分會造成交通上面的處理我們後來就請交通部要協助台東縣政府"},{"start":63.147,"end":84.01,"text":"謝謝部長因為這次的我們國際強化經濟社會及這個任性特別預算有編了大概15.85億用在基層防災維生設備建置的部分那我就聽到一些地方的民意代表或者是消防隊他們就跟我說能不能請委員幫忙來"},{"start":85.732,"end":112.535,"text":"看看有沒有發電機或者是可攜帶性的比如說電極器或者是生命監測器結果詢問了以後其實沒有辦法來補助這些設備我就想說如果這次有編列到這些預算的話這是屬於維生基礎的話是不是可以把它盤點全國比如說偏遠地區比如說海端、阿里山、霧台、納瑪夏這些比較容易交通中斷的地方"},{"start":112.895,"end":134.13,"text":"一致災或者是步道讓他們知道讓盤點說他們地區需要的是什麼那我就大概看了一下我們這次有一些防災的步驟讓一些我們部落的人有些想法跟部長報告他說在災難發生的當下真正發揮的功能是在我們的部落層級"},{"start":135.211,"end":149.288,"text":"可是很多消息是從村里長這邊所以反而忽略了我們部落的一些年齡階層教會 青年會這些可以第一時間去動員的這些組織所以我想說以後在災害防救法"},{"start":150.789,"end":177.086,"text":"這邊希望能夠藉助這些組織的力量來導入我們一些我們基本上我們村裡的這個階層因為沒有他們的指導跟沒有他們的參與的話其實在部落裡面很難去推動所謂的防災的一個動作然後現在而且會讓他們覺得說沒有被重視像這次我們看到我們馬太安是他們有提出了個五大訴求"},{"start":177.586,"end":197.902,"text":"那我也希望說這個基層防災這個維生設備能夠把他們這個五大訴求能夠寬列在那裡面然後希望部長能夠來研議這些我們的軟硬體設備啊或者是區域物資的整備還有一些設備選購的部分都能夠去聽取他們的意見好嗎 部長"},{"start":199.703,"end":218.048,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想分成兩個層面第一個我們現在在全台灣278個地方推動所謂的防災協作中心當然這是以鄉鎮公所或者是區公所為主那我們增加替代役的人力這是一個然後在這個防災協作中心有必要的包括像緊急發電設備等等都會編列進去"},{"start":220.089,"end":243.969,"text":"那您現在所提到的就是比較有可能造成抑制災或者是孤島部落的原住民的區域的地方我們已經跟原民會來商量就是我們要不要成立原住民的特收隊那這個原住民的特收隊會根據每個地方或是不同的部落裡面我們要做特訓如果你沒有做特訓的話自己沒辦法救自己要救別人其實反而會造成更多的災害"},{"start":245.07,"end":271.191,"text":"所以如果有这样子的一个特殊部队要成立的时候第一个他会在消防署经过特殊训练之后他必须要的装备或是必须要的设备是什么然后要怎么样协助到如果发生大型天灾不管是地震或者是其他的大水来的时候才能够真正做好比较防灾的部分这是一个第二个就是所谓的任性社区这次在马太安西里面艳色湖的部落有一位王子安村长"},{"start":273.152,"end":291.21,"text":"他就是112年了我們消防署有認證過的這個防災任性社區的非常好的代表所以他在疏散他的災民的時候呢他是用阿美族阿美族的族語啊幫忙做疏散而且平常也都有開會那這樣子的一個方式呢如果大部分在部落的領袖或者是"},{"start":291.85,"end":312.018,"text":"在村里長願意接受的話部落的領袖我們會透過園民會的系統來協助如果是村里的階層的話我們透過原來的鄉鎮區公所來共同協助我想用這樣的雙管齊下的方式來協助我們在孤島部落裡面或者是原住民區域比較多的聚落可以達成真正做到防災的效果"},{"start":312.759,"end":326.554,"text":"謝謝部長還有就是說在提醒的就是也要盤點一些常常會缺水的地方雖然有些地方是有減益自來水或者是說沒有自來水的地區可是如果你可以預期說他沒有水的時候可以先把他的一些"},{"start":327.295,"end":342.245,"text":"安全存量的用水放到部落那邊去不然我們這次光捐贈那個有些部落沒有水可以捐贈到一千多箱的水然後我是覺得說到最後如果都來找我們的話我們真的是沒有辦法一定要請我們內政部來統籌這樣的一個"},{"start":345.367,"end":359.896,"text":"報告委員大概有兩個方向如果他是平常的生活裡面缺水的話大致上是有園民會或是經濟部來協助但是如果你說到就是譬如說在天災期間收容安置單位裡面通常我們都會建議他有一星期以上的存水"},{"start":360.336,"end":385.048,"text":"但是這次可能收容安置所裡面人口暴增因為有大量要收容這些部分所以會產生缺水的狀況但是後續有些其他的緊急的設備就會來協助那這個部分包括在天災的時候需要有緊急的一個水的設備的處理這是一個過濾器的設備包括慈濟基金會也會有我們會綁下它這樣的方式然後配備到災區裡面供大家來用"},{"start":386.169,"end":396.562,"text":"好 謝謝部長 那我就再提醒一次希望救災的時候要有部落思維 謝謝對 園民會會跟我們一起來合作好 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謝謝部長那部長先請回我接下來問勞動的議題"},{"start":127.561,"end":152.776,"text":"那陳上你好就根據我們的統計青少年15到24歲的失業率長期都維持大概在11%左右是整體失業率的三倍以上所以我很肯定這次政府編列30億投入在加強青年失業訓練獎勵跟資源計畫這是非常必要性的可是我想特別請教是這個政策裡面到底有沒有包含"},{"start":153.536,"end":175.535,"text":"因为我们15岁就可以工作了15岁到17岁的未成年青少年也就是还没有成年的那一群有没有纳入在就业协助或职业辅导我跟委员报告就是劳动部在就业服务职业训练各种的对象尤其是弱势族群青少年也都是在我们平常例行的核心业务本来就有在做"},{"start":176.095,"end":191.688,"text":"那關於15到17歲的未成年人其實洪部長當時為了建立相關網絡也跟其他部會開過協作會議還有地方政府開過協作會議我們也去了一些據點也謝委員參與也提供我們很多的意見那我們勞動部在針對這一波特別"},{"start":192.508,"end":207.424,"text":"預算主要是在處理因應美國對等關稅還有國際情勢相應的影響所需要在一般的業務以外額外再去做相應處理的時候才會動用到特別預算但是很多的基本的支持在我們的本來的"},{"start":208.345,"end":226.96,"text":"很長的業務裡面就有包括所以我們所關心的這部分我們會再仔細盤點相應的政策需求協助這15到17歲的因為我上個會期就跟勞動部一起檢視過弱勢禁慾未成年的勞動權益跟保障的確聯合國的文獻也呈現說弱勢的未成年"},{"start":228.001,"end":249.594,"text":"往往比同年齡的人更早踏入職場如果在前階段的兩三年協助他們給他們更多的穩定的一個職癌的協助跟引導的話對於他們未來的五年的就職事實上是有非常大的一個幫助所以這次在這個預算裡邊的話我希望你能夠去理解"},{"start":250.254,"end":264.945,"text":"因為執行方案是需要經費的所以這些經費支持是非常迫切也是非常緊急的一個問題尤其我過去在民間服務的經驗我們發現少年在就業族群裡邊大概是有六成他事實上是沒有勞保的"},{"start":265.645,"end":287.258,"text":"這代表他們的工作處境事實上是不穩定風險又高更讓人家擔心的是從少數有勞保資料的部分來看的話年齡越小的反而越常出現在高風險的職場像是工地或者是營造製造業的比例竟然事實上是15歲的比16到17歲的還要高那所以請問像次長你怎麼去理解這樣的現象"},{"start":289.721,"end":304.039,"text":"應該這樣跟委員報告就15到17歲這一群青少年朋友其實也剛好在求學就業還有相應的相關的階段那其實行政院整體的在社會安全網裡面對最近都有關照所以我想問一下你們有沒有對策"},{"start":306.141,"end":332.627,"text":"提供他好的經濟生活的支持這部分是我們要去做理解的那有關於這青少年朋友他其實在工作場域和環境有一定的限制我們不希望他從事太多危險性高風險的行業所以這部分包括他的經濟來源支持還有如何協助他適材適性進到適合的工作場域這部分我們會來努力好謝謝市長謝謝好謝謝林瑞琴委員好"},{"start":337.206,"end":340.204,"text":"接下來請廖偉祥委員廖偉祥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1585,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時42分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長。"],["林委員月琴：還有勞動部的常務次長陳次長。"],["主席：勞動部陳次長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長好。首先我要肯定行政團隊這次在法制面上，讓普發現金可以合法又合規的發放，當然院長也承諾，只要立法院三讀通過，一個月就能夠發放，這也是值得肯定的。不過這時間真的非常趕、非常緊，所以我還是要提醒這次普發現金除了發放效率外，更要重視詐騙的防範，以及社福對象能不能夠順利領取，甚至要有人來協助，這一直是我很關心的族群。回顧2023年那次普發現金，常見的詐騙手法像是假網站，還有冒用個資、釣魚簡訊等等，這次普發1萬元還沒開跑，就已經有詐騙的案例出現了，所以想問部長，除了加強宣導以外，政府到底有沒有更積極的防範措施？特別是這次應該會有更多民眾選擇以線上登錄來領取，所以有沒有事先防堵的作法？"],["莊部長翠雲：有的。第一個、我們一定要把正確的資訊告訴民眾，要注意在什麼樣情況下、在哪一個網站登記。另外也跟委員報告，政府一直都重視打詐，不到一個月的時間，我們已經成功下架了48件詐騙廣告、12個社群帳號，還有3組詐網停止解析，這個部分目前刑事警察局都在專責溯源偵辦當中。我們要告訴大家不要有投機心理，因為政府一定會加強追緝以及有相關機制來追查。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長，部長先請回。","我接下來要問勞動的議題。"],["陳次長明仁：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：陳次長，你好。根據統計，15到24歲青少年的失業率長期都大概維持在11%左右，是整體失業率的三倍以上，所以我很肯定這次政府編列30億投入在加強青年失業訓練獎勵跟支援計畫，這是非常有必要性的。可是我想特別請教，因為15歲就可以工作了，這個政策裡面到底有沒有包含15歲到17歲的未成年、青少年？也就是還沒有成年的那一群有沒有納入就業協助或職涯輔導？"],["陳次長明仁：勞動部在就業服務、職業訓練的各種對象，尤其是弱勢族群、青少年，也都是我們平常例行核心業務本來就有在做的。關於15到17歲的未成年人，洪部長當時為了建立相關網絡，也跟其他部會還有地方政府開過協作會議，我們也去了一些據點，也謝謝委員參與並提供我們很多的意見。勞動部在這一波特別預算主要是在處理因應美國對等關稅，還有國際情勢相應的影響，需要在一般業務以外、額外再去做相應處理的時候，才會動用到特別預算，但是很多的基本支持在我們本來恆常的業務裡面就有包括，所以委員所關心的部分，我們會再仔細盤點相應的政策需求，協助15到17歲的人。"],["林委員月琴：因為我上個會期就跟勞動部一起檢視過弱勢境遇未成年的勞動權益跟保障，聯合國的文獻也呈現弱勢未成年人往往比同年齡的人更早踏入職場，如果在前階段的兩、三年協助他們，給他們更多穩定的職涯協助跟引導，對於他們未來5年的就職事實上有非常大的幫助。在這次的預算裡面，我希望你能夠去理解，因為執行方案是需要經費的，所以這些經費的支持是非常迫切也非常緊急的一個問題。尤其以我過去在民間服務的經驗，發現少年在就業族群裡面大概有六成沒有勞保，這代表他們的工作處境事實上是不穩定的，風險又高。更讓人家擔心的是，從少數有勞保資料的部分來看，年齡越小的反而越常出現在高風險職場，像是工地或者營造、製造業的比例事實上竟然是15歲的比16到17歲的還要高。請問次長怎麼去理解這樣的現象？"],["陳次長明仁：15到17歲這一群青少年朋友剛好在求學、就業還有相應兼職的階段，其實行政院整體在社會安全網裡面對這些人都有一些關照。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以我想問一下，你們有沒有對策？"],["陳次長明仁：勞動部對於如何就業自立並提供他好的經濟生活支持，這部分是我們要去理解的。有關青少年朋友在工作場域和環境有一定的限制，我們不希望他從事有太多危險性、高風險的行業，所以這部分包括他的經濟來源支持，還有如何協助他適才適性進到適合的工作場域，我們會來努力。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝次長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","接下來請廖偉翔委員。廖偉翔委員、廖偉翔委員不在。","接下來請盧縣一委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff04c6723ff810f3cd92b1f00580874b15590b149bf9762da921e7a2a83f9da65db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"13:34:52 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這當然是我們應該要做的事如何方便我們的婦女朋友可以工作與生活平衡 彈性嬰嬰留庭或讓她盡量保持在職場上這是我們勞動部當委之事委員所提到這些事情我們都目前正在檢討當中我們會朝方便婦女朋友的申請還有友善化的方向來檢討改進"},{"start":154.053,"end":170.351,"text":"可是我想現在還有企業面臨到的一些問題啦剛剛講其實是企業面臨到的問題那企業的部分像線上申請這個部分是可行的嗎我們其實推動相關的申請友善化本來就很多線上申請的作為那這邊企業"},{"start":172.433,"end":192.918,"text":"大中型的企業是沒有問題的那中小型的企業這邊有賴於我們透過相應的協助讓他知道便利的申請方式我相信其實未來隨著AI時代的來臨數位化的落差會逐漸去彌平好 那我想因為時間很有限我想我先到下一個部分就是說"},{"start":194.338,"end":215.474,"text":"我們其實現在我們不管是在女性來說我們看到非常多的媽媽她們都希望有彈性共識這件事情那我們也發現從數據上面數據上面其實我們的女性在疫情之後她完全在家上班的這個數字其實是大幅提升的跟過去相比來說所以"},{"start":216.815,"end":231.569,"text":"我們知道說這的確是有一些挑戰但是我想這個還是蠻需要去落實這個性工法第19條的一個規範提供這個彈性工時那我想請次長是不是可以我們可不可以加速來讓這件事情來進行這樣子"},{"start":231.749,"end":256.943,"text":"沒有問題 我們未來會針對女性的老公朋友如何在家工作或者是協商那個休息的時間等等或以至於育兒照顧長者需求相應的部分我們都會來一併的來檢討讓他彈性化可以增加女性朋友的一個工作上的好 那我想這個是不是可以提出一個方案給我們好不好好 那抱歉我趕快謝謝我們先請衛福部衛福部"},{"start":261.005,"end":288.64,"text":"张委员你好市长好就是说其实我们之前看到那个卫福部提供的资料就是说我们有个强化关怀老人服务的计划是而是我们去看如果以我们计划关怀仿生人数对照内政部的设计资料来说其实覆盖率只有六分之一其实是非常非常低的那我们这一次呢在除了我们看到说未来一定会成长越老人一定是越来越多了是没错那我们现在有几个问题第一个就是说我们涉及到"},{"start":289.58,"end":313.137,"text":"我們有許多的獨居長者其實是沒有被納入這個服務網路的那原因就有可能是因為地方沒有去積極的盤點啦整合不同單位的資料所以衛福部這邊是不是可以來去督導我們地方政府強化的去整合我們不管是戶政或是警政以及我們社政的相關系統來確保我們的確有掌握到所有的獨老的這個數字這部分是可以的嗎是"},{"start":314.137,"end":331.057,"text":"包委員我們確實就正照委員您剛剛所說我們會朝這個方向那我也有幾個啦有幾個數字第一個內政部他現在所說的這個基本上基本上只是就是說那個戶數基本上只是那個所謂的住宅還有那個所謂戶數但我們現在目前必須要有實際方式"},{"start":332.438,"end":343.954,"text":"之後我們來知道他真正的需求所以就是說獨老裡面其實老實說獨老也有自願性獨老跟非自願性那我們現在目前是非自願性裡面有福利需求的我們現在目前要target在這個群體"},{"start":345.34,"end":362.437,"text":"所以你们现在有非自愿读老的数字是已经都算出来了吗还是还没有正因为我们现在就是不清楚所以我们要经过这两年三个月我们跟内政部我们非常感谢内政部这边的帮忙我们会透过民政系统来做一个全国性的普查"},{"start":363.098,"end":378.653,"text":"那我跟委員報告我們現在目前全國我們現在目前的65歲以上總共有468萬佔總人口在19.67但是呢按照我們現在目前估出來真正有需要的應該是9%所以總共我們是抓70萬"},{"start":380.334,"end":406.535,"text":"我們是這樣做這樣的估算那分兩年嘛一年3535這樣來做這個估算我想確定一件事情就好就是說因為現在看起來你們已經有掌握一個大概的數字嘛所以現在我們看起來只有覆蓋了一部分非常非常少的一部分所以我們現在是不是有個具體的規劃時程大概什麼時候可以完成這樣子的一個覆蓋率呢我們有這樣子的計畫嗎就誠如我們就是在這次任性計畫裡面我們提出一個整個兩年兩年級的計畫兩年級的計畫會完成覆蓋"},{"start":409.797,"end":427.609,"text":"對 沒錯 就是能夠達到我們剛剛說的預估值70萬從現在目前有照顧的5萬多大幅成長到70萬這樣所以在兩年之後我們就會覆蓋了是的 沒錯 好了解 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 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我們請農業部部長好 請陳部長我也好部長好部長 日前我們賴總統有宣布說未來四年的國內業者可能會採購將近100億的美國農產品那這一次的清單雖然避開了稻米"},{"start":37.989,"end":55.104,"text":"還有但是家裡的農民都在問我說下一次會不會擴大採購稻米雞和豬肉這個部分我們今天審查的190億的農業認証運算有沒有做最快的準備跟打算"},{"start":55.723,"end":75.662,"text":"我跟委員說明這兩個是完全不一樣的事情我們這次赴美採購100億美金最主要是它是一個每兩年一度的例行性的業者聯合採購已經辦了15次最主要的品項是黃豆 玉米 小麥跟牛肉"},{"start":76.803,"end":102.975,"text":"黃豆 玉米 小麥這個部分我們國內的自給率就非常非常的低舉個例子 黃豆的自給率只有0.2然後玉米的自給率只有2.5左右牛肉的自給率也不過4.6所以這些產品都是國內需要然後我們進來以後能夠有效的反而會讓我們的生產成本降低"},{"start":104.048,"end":128.926,"text":"所以等於是說我們儘管是採買100億美元的這個農產品其實是在做互補性的是我們剛好是最缺這一部分的這個農產品也是因為我們這個部分也是一直以來都是很依賴的那既然由美國能夠提供的話那這樣子的購買其實對我的農業對我國的農業是沒有什麼太大衝擊甚至是對我們的包含一些飼料是降低它的費用都有幫助的對飼料的成本降低是有利的"},{"start":129.69,"end":154.315,"text":"那想請教一下那部長接下來有很多輪的談判那農業部有沒有建立包含這個敏感的產品的清單我為什麼一直在講稻米雞肉豬肉這些是因為我們包含嘉峪雲嘉南高高坪地區這些都是我們重要的農民的生產的這些作物跟肉品所以針對這些優先的必須要保護的項目我不知道部長有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":155.41,"end":184.045,"text":"最終的決策層級會是農業部還是雞貓辦還是國安會我非常了解大家的一個擔心跟疑慮但是現在因為談判還在談判的過程中我沒有辦法去做一些更詳細的說明但是農業部的立場就是一定會確保糧食安全然後同時讓我們這個產業能夠持續的永續發展更重要的是我們會確保農民的權益我們是用這三個基本的前提之下持續的在跟美國在做一個溝通"},{"start":184.977,"end":212.466,"text":"部長你剛才說這個確保農民的權益那有一些政府必須要設定的不可退讓的紅線包含農業部也要設定一些不可退讓的紅線那讓這些談判單位也要清楚的知道那我今天不斷重複就是稻米跟我們的這個肉品這個部分我還是希望說一定要讓負責談判的小組能夠知道說這是我們中南部非常重視的項目不可以輕易的來去放棄這個紅線"},{"start":213.902,"end":227.37,"text":"那我必須要再提到部長你這190億的農業任性的預算裡面有提到獎勵這個花種苗 毛豆 國產茶葉等等鬼頭魚 無國魚來去破綻美國高端外銷市場所需經費約45億元"},{"start":229.511,"end":257.894,"text":"部長我們之所以要做這些事情我們剛剛提到在採購100億美元的美國農產品就是因為我們對美國有高度的順差為了降低順差的幅度所以我們才需要談判那我們同時要降低順差同時又要推銷到美國的產品在這個預算的項目裡特別標明美國市場這樣不是很矛盾嗎我的建議是不是說獎勵業者推展國際高端外銷市場不應該只去居住於在美國市場而已"},{"start":258.314,"end":280.251,"text":"因為這就跟我們的相關的政策是有所矛盾非常同意委員的講法這個部分我想可能是我們同仁在寫的時候因為我們在政策的內容除了美國市場其實更重要的是多元的高端市場所以這個45億我們未來不只是全部在美國有更多的高端市場我們也會一起來努力所以說科目就不必只寫美國因為你的科目就寫美國其實我們的目標是多方的市場的話"},{"start":288.217,"end":316.825,"text":"那也同時我們的政策目的就是某種程度就是美方就是希望我們來降低順差那我們還做這件事情的話感覺是在政策上面的互相抵消那第一個我們剛剛講到的這個黃豆小麥大豆我們的我國的自產率本來就低的東西這當然是有互補的這個我想也透過很多機會要讓農民朋友們知道但是我剛剛提到的稻米還有豬跟雞這個不斷的還是我要一再的強調那再來剛才提到糧食安全的準備"},{"start":317.901,"end":331.023,"text":"那部長我看到我們現在糧食的倉儲地點是不是過於集中會不會讓緊急狀態下的供應韌性對於這個分散式的倉儲或者是異地備援的規劃這個目前的進度是怎麼樣"},{"start":331.956,"end":348.699,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在的全國的這些最主要的糧倉的部分其實是分布在我們所有的縣市每個縣市都有17個縣市最主要17個縣市因為都會區可能是用臨近的每個縣市我們都有他們相關的安全的一些備援"},{"start":349.139,"end":362.237,"text":"那也很抱歉因為這些地點跟實際的東西我現在沒辦法說我們只是要提醒我們有分散我們是有考慮到分散那未來也會針對這些糧倉做一些維修跟一些用冷藏可以讓它儲存更久的一個方式來處理"},{"start":363.14,"end":380.519,"text":"除了分散之外另外一個還要提點就是當然是依照人口跟偏遠地區都必須要有相關的配套的做法特別是也是要鼓勵農業部希望說各個不管是藉由宣傳還是用其他的方式還是要建議在偏遠地區的民眾假設在"},{"start":381.34,"end":405.076,"text":"完全斷源因為現在災害是頻繁的在狀況之下他們至少可以再維持在家中的糧食飲水電源設備至少要有10天以上這個部分我想農業部也必須要再加傳推廣因為特別是在偏遠山區的我們可能比方說我們阿里山翻入竹崎山區的話第一時間道路都會中斷等到道路重新清通之後再把相關的運輸品沖過去的話可能會太遲所以"},{"start":406.537,"end":414.761,"text":"藉由這個機會在國會還是希望大家能夠準備十天的以上的這個糧食跟飲水謝謝好謝謝委員的提醒謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來我們請張雅琳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1523,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時27分）你好，請農業部部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，日前我們賴總統宣布說，未來4年國內業者可能會採購將近100億的美國農產品，這一次的清單雖然避開了稻米，但是嘉義的農民都在問我，下一次會不會擴大要採購稻米、雞和豬肉？我們今天審查的190億農業韌性預算，有沒有做最壞的準備跟打算？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，這兩個是完全不一樣的事情，我們這次赴美採購100億美金，最主要的是，它是一個每兩年一度的例行性業者聯合採購，已經辦了15次了，最主要的品項是黃豆、玉米、小麥跟牛肉；黃豆、玉米、小麥的部分，我們國內自給率非常非常的低，舉個例子，黃豆的自給率只有0.2%；玉米的自給率只有2.5%左右；牛肉的自給率也不過4.6%，所以這些產品都是國內需要，然後進來以後，反而能夠有效的讓我們的生產成本降低。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以等於是說，我們儘管是採買了100億美元的農產品，其實是在做互補性的，因為我們剛好最缺這一部分。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個部分一直以來我們也都是很依賴的，既然美國能夠提供的話，這樣子的購買其實對我們的農業沒有什麼太大的衝擊，甚至對我們的農業，包含一些飼料成本的降低反而是有幫助的。"],["陳部長駿季：對我們反而是有利的，對飼料成本降低是有利的。"],["陳委員冠廷：想請教一下部長，接下來會有很多輪的談判，農業部有沒有建立包含敏感產品的清單？我為什麼一直在講稻米、雞肉、豬肉這些？是因為包含雲嘉南、高高屏地區，這些都是我們農民很重要的生產作物跟肉品，針對這些優先的、必須要保護的項目，我不知道部長有什麼樣的作法？最終的決策層級是農業部還是經貿辦，還是國安會？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常了解大家的擔心跟疑慮，但是現在因為還在談判的過程中，我沒有辦法去做一些更詳細的說明，但是農業部的立場一定會確保糧食安全，同時讓我們的產業能夠持續永續發展。更重要的是，我們會確保農民的權益，我們是用這三個基本的前提之下，持續跟美國進行溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，你剛才說到確保農民的權益，這就有一些政府必須要設定的、不可退讓的紅線，包含農業部也要設定一些不可退讓的紅線，讓這一些談判單位也可以清楚的知道。我今天不斷重複稻米跟我們的肉品，這個部分我還是希望一定要讓負責談判的小組能夠知道，這是我們中南部非常重視的項目，不可以輕易放棄這個紅線。","部長，我必須要再提到，你這190億農業韌性預算裡面，有提到獎勵花卉、種苗、毛豆、國產茶葉、鬼頭魚、吳郭魚等等，還有鼓勵拓展美國高端外銷市場，所需經費約45億元。部長，我們之所以要做這些事情，剛剛提到採購100億美元美國農產品，就是因為我們對美國有高度的順差，為了降低順差的幅度，所以我們才需要談判，我們同時要降低順差，同時又要推銷到美國的產品，在這個預算的項目裡，特別標明美國市場，這樣不是很矛盾嗎？我的建議是，獎勵業者推展國際高端外銷市場，不應該只拘束在美國市場而已，因為這就跟我們相關的政策是有所矛盾的。"],["陳部長駿季：非常同意委員的講法，這個部分可能是我們同仁在寫的時候，因為我們在政策內容上，除了美國市場，其實更重要的是多元的高端市場。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這45億未來不是全部都在美國，有更多的高端市場，我們也會一起來努力，就是用這樣的經費。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以科目就不必只寫「美國」，因為你的科目就寫「美國」，但其實我們的目標是多方的市場，同時我們的政策目的某種程度就是美方希望我們降低順差，如果我們還做這件事情的話，感覺是在政治上面互相抵銷。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：第一個，我們剛剛講到的黃豆、小麥、大豆，是我國自產率本來就低的東西，這當然是有互補的，我想這也應透過很多機會讓農民朋友們知道，但是我剛剛提到的稻米還有豬跟雞，我還是要一再、不斷的強調。","再來，剛才提到糧食安全的準備，部長，我們現在糧食的倉儲地點是不是過於集中？會不會讓緊急狀態下的供應韌性有影響？對於分散式的倉儲，或者是異地備援的規劃，目前的進度是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在全國這些最主要的糧倉，其實分布在我們所有的縣市，每個縣市都有，最主要是17個縣市，因為都會區可能是用鄰近的，每個縣市都有他們相關安全的備援。很抱歉，這些地點跟實際的東西，我現在沒辦法說。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我只是要提醒。"],["陳部長駿季：總之，我們有考慮到分散，未來也會針對這些糧倉做一些維修跟一些冷藏設備，用可以儲存更久的方式處理。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了分散之外，另外還有一個要提點，就是依照人口跟偏遠地區都必須要有相關的配套做法，在此也是要鼓勵農業部，不管是藉由宣傳還是用其他的方式，還是要建議在偏遠地區的民眾，假設是完全斷源，因為現在災害是頻繁的，在這些狀況之下，他們家中糧食、飲水、電源設備至少要維持10天以上的準備，這個部分我想農業部也必須要再加強推廣，特別是在偏遠山區，比方說我們的阿里山番路、竹崎山區，第一時間道路都會中斷，等到道路重新清通後再把相關運輸品送過去的話，可能會太遲，所以藉由在國會這個機會，還是希望大家能夠準備10天以上的糧食跟飲水，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0e6efb9a9f776c0232b1f00580874b15590b149bf9762da9245bf4d8e7f7c77355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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我們就是希望這個人才的招募部分希望能夠把它列為一個重要的政策能夠去思考 討論 好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝吳立豪委員 部長請回接下來我們請陳冠廷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1503,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時20分）謝謝主席，有請國防部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。部長，我們都知道現在戰爭並不是只有火力、軍備的對抗，其實網路的戰爭目前已經是一個趨勢，很多人也會覺得中共在這一方面的認知作戰，看起來好像是更勝一籌，有時候感覺我們都被打趴了，所以我們在這次的韌性預算特別條例有看到，就是為了要發展電子戰、網路戰以及防護、偵蒐、反制的能力，因此特別有一個叫做軍民資通作業環境韌性與設備效能提升計畫，編列了563億，我想我們一定要全力支持，也一定會全力支持，但是設備跟人必須要相輔才能夠相成。","我們看到了一個數據，在109年到113年資通電軍指揮部有一個勤務加給叫做網路戰勤務加給。從它的人數跟它編列的金額來看，就過去預算的人數跟實支的人數，我們可以看得到好像實支的人數會超過預算的人數，所以這幾年我們其實已經把預算人數編高，預算金額也編高，但是我們發現實支的人數、實支的金額卻是在下降當中。我想請教一下部長，您認為這樣的現象可能是什麼因素造成的？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們也因為這樣子，所以從114年的6月起，我們也增加了網路戰的加給。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：多少？"],["顧部長立雄：我們分成專精二級跟專精一級；還有菁英二級跟菁英一級；還有專家級，都有不同，最高的是專家級，加給是6萬。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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辛苦了我們在討論特別預算其中跟內政部有關大家也都關心當然就是所謂的老宅延售政策這個政策方向上當然是一件好事但針對內容上本席有一些想法跟內政部這邊來做一下交換"},{"start":27.948,"end":49.699,"text":"這一次針對老宅延售的五十億基本上是針對三十年以上四到六樓也就是所謂的五樓公寓啦為主的這樣一個建築來進行整理跟補助嘛對不對對還有地震要先做一個耐震補強等等嘛那我想要請問劉部長你覺得預算執行的你有多大把握可以全部執行完畢"},{"start":50.287,"end":70.614,"text":"第一個我們設定的對象是500棟那500棟在未來的一兩年當中其實會比較容易達成是因為現在跟我們表達說有興趣的相當的多但是中間有些程序需要補足包括公益大廈管理條例裡面是不是適用的部分我們都會來做檢討現在大概本期有兩個問題第一個是這樣子就是說"},{"start":71.536,"end":100.665,"text":"尤其是五樓公寓的狀況因為它當然沒有管委會嘛那你還是要經過一個內部的意見整合這樣一個機制幾乎都要百分之百同意啦對啦因為你有管委會的時候你還可以說我去全員開個會我就處理完了對不對有多數意見等等但是那五樓公寓你也很難有所謂的相關的機制嘛你變成是等於族戶要拿同意書的概念啦那這樣的話其中有一兩層他可能出租找不到屋主或者是說他有反對意見對不對那會不會造成這個政策自然難行啊"},{"start":101.39,"end":129.494,"text":"會 所以我們現在已經針對這個有一些補充或是其他的辦法我是不是請署長跟你回應可以啊 署長你說明一下吧你怎麼樣去解決這個界面整合的問題啊感謝 因為首先來講就是說沒有管委會的部分我們會建議他從管理組織去組成就可以了就是說他不一定是供應大家所講的所以我們上次的修法裡面就把他從管委會再增加叫管理組織所以還要 你這是修法已經修法過了所以就鼓勵他們至少是一個管理組織"},{"start":130.114,"end":145.264,"text":"我要問的處理這件事情總要有個人嘛就是說你要有個人去找人然後去收集這些東西請問你現在老宅延壽計畫五十裡面跟人相關的有哪些人比如說我搞都更對不對我至少還有一個叫都更規劃師"},{"start":146.345,"end":162.55,"text":"都更規劃師實務上當然也遇到很大障礙因為公信力可能不夠等等這當然另外有時間再來做探討但你今天老宅延壽會有一樣的狀況嘛都更好歹有一個規劃師來穿梭行走效果都不見得好了那你現在這個老宅延壽是誰要去處理這個事熱心的住戶嗎"},{"start":163.63,"end":186.517,"text":"地方政府的專員嗎NGO嗎是什麼樣來處理呢是這樣喔因為我們之前就已經跟地方的建築公會還有相關的這個都已經有開過他們都非常願意出來協助來處理這些事情那包含這一個這一個地方要成立管委會組織那我們接洽過這些公會他們都願意出來第二個我們有給地方政府相關的這個顧問團隊的這個經費那這部分也是他們可以用來協助這個社區來做整合的一些"},{"start":191.698,"end":207.545,"text":"我是覺得這樣子的講法還是太模糊了因為我們要聽到的是比如哪一個協會哪一些人可以直接來處理這個事我才能追蹤這個效果工會都有表達意願工會有表達意願但我覺得這不夠具體而且第二個你剛有講成立管理組織等等他也是需要行政作業流程跟時間嘛"},{"start":208.365,"end":223.811,"text":"我們這個特別預算下去我當然希望看到效果嘛我別說下去沒有辦法很好執行或者是說中央確實有出錢可是地方上我收的是補助但我不見得能夠妥善的去使用這個我們都會補助這個要追蹤一下啦是 這個也會補助地方好不好 有關介面整合的部分你會有提供一份書面報告我們要了解狀況"},{"start":224.711,"end":252.722,"text":"第二個 日本人要做個建議啦我希望你們在處理這個政策的時候既然要花五十億對不對 特別預算你既然都如果界面整個問題可以解決你老宅最後延壽我要讓它可長可久你是不是在這整合的過程我拿了政府的錢做了部分的修繕之後我也要去考量未來嘛我們現在公寓大廈我們都希望有長期修繕計畫那這些老宅延壽拿了政府補助的是不是也要有相關的有人要去輔導要把這相關的長期的修繕計畫來制定出來"},{"start":253.402,"end":282.441,"text":"不能每次都是政府有資源有些有用到有些沒用到用完了就算了然後要等下一波資源這樣也不是辦法既然政府要下資源我就希望要有常委效應嘛所以我希望政府在執行這個預算的時候你要有一些條件嘛也就是說我除了要整合完之後既然都整合了大家就開個會嘛一起把長期休戰計畫也要把它納入也許變成一個指標或怎麼樣讓這筆錢下去之後它才能夠真正達成延壽的效果嘛這樣你下這個錢才會值得啦第二點是本期的政策建議啦"},{"start":283.161,"end":300.535,"text":"這個我可以理解委員的用心就是說希望他們長期這個管理組織變成是一個長期可運作的成立管理組織會有修繕計畫嘛就真的確定他後續有一些修繕的計畫或者是長期他會因此本來沒有再收管理費修繕費現在開始來運作來收你把這五十億當成一個開頭"},{"start":301.656,"end":318.812,"text":"但他建立好的模式之後他也許會轉正嘛變成一個長期執行的計畫但他一定要有相關效果嘛讓最後每一棟五樓公寓他都有相關的修正案計畫這才是真正的老宅延壽了好不好這希望國務組用點心內政部用點心好嗎好 謝謝好 辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝牛許廷委員 謝謝好 接下來我們請吳立華委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1461,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（13時14分）謝謝主席。內政部、國土署有請。"],["主席：好，請劉部長，還有吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安！辛苦了！我們在討論特別預算，其中跟內政部有關，大家也都關心，當然就是所謂的老宅延壽政策。這個政策方向上當然是一件好事，但針對內容上，本席有一些想法跟內政部這邊來做一下交換。","這一次針對老宅延壽的50億元，基本上是針對30年以上4到6樓，也就是所謂的5樓公寓為主的建築來進行整理跟補助，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，還有地震要先做一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：耐震補強等等。"],["劉部長世芳：對，耐震補強。"],["牛委員煦庭：我想要請問劉部長，你有多大把握可以把預算全部執行完畢？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個，我們設定的對象是500棟，500棟在未來的一、兩年當中其實會比較容易達成，是因為現在跟我們表達說有興趣的相當地多，但是中間有些程序需要補足，包括公寓大廈管理條例裡面是不是適用的部分，我們都會檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。現在本席有兩個問題，第一個，尤其是5樓公寓的狀況，因為它沒有管委會，那還是要經過內部意見整合這樣的機制。"],["劉部長世芳：幾乎都要百分之百同意啦！這是最大的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦！有管委會的時候，你還可以說區權人開個會，我就處理完了，對不對？有多數意見等等。但是5樓公寓你也很難有所謂相關的機制嘛！變成是逐戶要拿同意書的概念，這樣其中有一、兩層可能出租，找不到屋主，或者是他有反對意見，那會不會造成這個政策窒礙難行？"],["劉部長世芳：會，所以我們現在已經針對這個有一些補充或是其他的辦法。我是不是請署長跟您回應，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：可以啊！署長你說明一下吧！你怎麼樣去解決這個界面整合的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝！首先，針對沒有管委會的部分，我們會建議他從管理組織去組成就可以了，就是說它不一定是公寓大廈所講的。所以我們上次的修法裡面，就有把它從管委會再增加一個，叫管理組織。"],["牛委員煦庭：那是不是還要修法？"],["吳署長欣修：已經修法過了，所以就鼓勵他們至少是一個管理組織出來處理這件事情。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我要問的是，處理這件事情總要有個人嘛！就是要有一個人去找人，然後去蒐集這些東西。"],["吳署長欣修：沒有錯。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問你現在在老宅延壽計畫的50億元裡面，跟人相關的有哪些人？比如說我搞都更，我至少還有一個叫都更規劃師。都更規劃師實務上當然也遇到很大障礙，因為公信力可能不夠等等，這當然另外有時間再來做探討。但你今天老宅延壽會有一樣的狀況嘛！都更好歹有一個規劃師來穿梭行走，效果都不見得好了，那你現在這個老宅延壽是誰要去處理這個事？熱心的住戶嗎？地方政府的專員嗎？NGO嗎？是什麼樣的人來處理呢？"],["吳署長欣修：是這樣的，因為我們之前就已經跟地方的建築師工會，還有相關人員都有開過會，他們都非常願意出來協助處理這些事情。包含地方要成立管委會組織，我們接洽過這些工會，他們都願意出來。第二個，我們有給地方政府相關顧問團隊的經費，這部分也是他們可以用來協助社區來做整合的一些經費。"],["牛委員煦庭：我是覺得這樣子的講法還是太模糊了，因為我們要聽到的是比如哪一個協會、哪一些人可以直接來處理這個事，我才能追蹤這個效果。"],["吳署長欣修：其實工會都有表達意願，他們都……"],["牛委員煦庭：工會有表達意願？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：但我覺得這不夠具體。而且第二個，你剛剛有講成立管理組織等等，它也是需要行政作業流程跟時間嘛！我們這個特別預算下去，我當然希望看到效果。比如說下去沒有辦法很好執行，或者是說中央確實有出錢，可是地方上收了補助，但不見得能夠妥善地去使用，這個應該要追蹤一下啦！"],["吳署長欣修：是，這個也會補助地方政府運作。"],["牛委員煦庭：有關界面整合的部分，請你會後提供一份書面報告，我們要了解狀況。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，本席要做個建議。我希望你們在處理這個政策的時候，既然要花50億元特別預算，如果界面整合問題可以解決，老宅最後要延壽，我要讓它可長可久，那是不是在這整合的過程，我拿了政府的錢做了部分的修繕之後，我也要去考量未來？我們現在公寓大廈都希望有長期修繕計畫，這些老宅延壽拿了政府補助的，是不是也要有相關的人要去輔導，要把相關的長期修繕計畫制定出來？不然每次都是政府有資源，有些有用到，有些沒用到，用完了就算了，然後再等下一波資源，這樣也不是辦法。既然政府要下資源，我就希望有長尾效應嘛！","所以我希望政府在執行這個預算的時候，要有一些條件。也就是說，既然都要整合了，大家就開個會嘛！一起也把長期修繕計畫納入，也許變成一個指標或怎麼樣，讓這筆錢下去之後，它才能夠真正達成延壽的效果嘛！這樣你下的錢才會值得啦！第二點是本席的政策建議。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，我可以理解委員的用心。就是希望這個管理組織變成是一個長期可運作的，而且是確定……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！成立管理組織會有修繕計畫嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，真的確定後續有一些修繕的計畫或是長期，它會因此……本來沒有在收管理費、修繕費的，現在開始來運作、來收。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦！你把這50億當成一個開頭，當他建立好的模式之後，也許就會轉正，變成一個長期執行的計畫，但他一定要有相關的效果，最後讓每一棟5樓的公寓都有相關的修繕計畫，這才是真正的老宅延壽，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好，我們會來努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以希望國土署用點心，內政部用點心，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163941","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff07d8fcc9eff84f9d22b1f00580874b15590b149bf9762da920f1c420776665bfc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:08:14 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請教育部 正部長好 長請委員好 部長好"},{"start":24.008,"end":28.651,"text":"部長我們這一次在處理這個特別預算那是針對所謂的關稅造成台灣的衝擊讓我們虛妄編列特別預算然後來強化我們台灣的競爭力那特別在教育部這邊抓了200億那這中間有包括維持大學的基本的一些"},{"start":49.405,"end":65.232,"text":"運作 減少說去學費的一個漲價那也有說另外也有針對大學的部分他們如何去吸引就是說大學要吸引更多的教師的人才那還有一個就是產官學合作那我想要請教因為"},{"start":67.053,"end":81.344,"text":"不管是吸引新的大學的人才教師的人才或者是產官學合作光是這樣的經費也高達一百億要分為八十跟二十億所以經費算是很多所以我想聽話補充你們具體上要怎麼去運用一百億"},{"start":87.449,"end":101.619,"text":"然後達到了我們所謂未來台灣的企業可以因為我們這一百億讓大學端有培育出更多的人才然後在不同的一個企業的應用上讓他們找到他們愛的人我想要聽聽布丁你要怎麼來操作"},{"start":105.892,"end":120.399,"text":"謝謝委員的關心確實我們現在其實以科技產業那麼的一個興盛我們不僅是大概台城清交連台城基礁在許多理學院工學院的實施都是這一個拼不到的"},{"start":120.839,"end":131.746,"text":"那簡單來講我們會看到整個高等教育人才上的一些這一個世代的一個交替比如說在一百零二年我們看到台灣系系導計畫的時候當時進來的這些電子電機資格資訊的資工的這些的實施大概在"},{"start":138.777,"end":161.7,"text":"十年後至少會退六成我們擔心台灣在未來的產業的支撐力量擔心台灣的人才未來在許多這個有學生讀理學院讀工學院但是我們可能沒有一個足夠好的施施去培養人才包含支撐我們產業的一些力量就是人才不要給斷層嘛所以老師也很重要的嘛"},{"start":162.501,"end":170.206,"text":"企業讓他們導入然後在這個學程的過程讓企業導入也重要所以你們是不是就會成立更多的類似一些學程然後讓企業界去一起來訓練學生這些學生一旦畢業後就可以馬上到這些企業去做就業產官學合作差不多都已經改良了因為我們過去跟委員報告我們過去產業確實在產學合作比較少捐贈去成立一個講座我們希望透過"},{"start":192.541,"end":211.678,"text":"這一個產業為了他也需要人才那麼我們怎麼樣接種產業的一些許多他企業的社會責任包含這一個大學的人才的培育能夠產業也能夠兼正五千一億成立講座這個講座是成立一個基金部長 我想要說講座你覺得這樣的火候夠嗎"},{"start":217.003,"end":231.772,"text":"你還不如直接把它進入說好我就是要開類似這樣企業所需要的一個學程學分你直接把這樣把它開出來啊你當用一個講座的也許對學生來說他只是去聽課他不未必是他會列為他學習的"},{"start":232.973,"end":249.791,"text":"人才培育包括尖端人才的延攬因為我們現在持平了大學的許多的能量用我們的公務預算持平要支撐一個比較高階的一些研究我們其實希望產業能夠也辦理一定的責任產業加入這個是要的"},{"start":251.252,"end":276.548,"text":"但是我更希望的是說因為現在這個產業跟我們過去傳統的過去幾年我們對於所謂我們台灣變成矽的一個產業就是所謂晶圓的一個產業基本上我們都有一些概念可是現在的進步又不一樣了現在AI的時代跳的速度太快了所以可能有一些產業他們現在的一些技術已經在大學端這邊沒有跟上"},{"start":277.508,"end":299.493,"text":"如果要讓大學端這邊可以來跟上的話由企業他們直接進入大學去開說我們現在比方說現在有矽光紙的產業現在有所謂AI應用的產業現在有所謂無人機的材料的產業如果我們可以讓大學端跟企業做更好的結盟"},{"start":300.593,"end":308.347,"text":"我想這個讓未來培養出來的人都是企業想要的人跟委員報告委員的想法跟我們在這個產業合作事實上是有"},{"start":309.161,"end":336.047,"text":"亦許同工也就是說我們看到來自於醫學院的一個人才的model醫學院的教授在醫學院教書但是他臨床裡面他也看診他有兩分的一個薪水一個來自於所謂的醫院一個來自於所謂的大學我們也希望用這樣能夠讓企業的這些尖端人才也來跟大學合作我們有提一個類醫學院的model部長我接下來可能會跟我們嘉義的幾家大學"},{"start":336.807,"end":353.5,"text":"可能會跟我們教育部這邊我們來計劃一些方案我覺得現在大學端他們也跟企業也有在談那這個談的希望說未來訓練出來的更多是屬於現在新的AI新的一些科技的一些人才"},{"start":354.241,"end":379.027,"text":"那大學有希望做我希望我們教育部又有這個特別預算應該來支持這一塊讓他們要做的時候更加的有資源我想不僅尖端科技在人文社會各個領域裡面的人才我們都樂意在希望在這裡為台灣一個高教人才的勇氣的一個培育跟發展能夠有一個穩定的力量那我想這特別預算教育部的部分我覺得大家會支持就希望未來我們就要好好來做"},{"start":380.547,"end":386.492,"text":"這樣好不好謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝蔡宇委員的諮詢接下來請劉許廷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1436,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時8分）謝謝召委，我們是不是有請教育部鄭部長？"],["主席：好，請教育部鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，我們這一次在處理特別預算，是針對所謂的關稅造成臺灣的衝擊，我們希望編列特別預算，來強化我們臺灣的競爭力。特別教育部抓了200億元，這中間有包括維持大學基本的一些運作、減少學費的漲價。另外也有針對大學的部分如何去吸引更多教師的人才，還有一個就是產官學合作。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想要請教，因為不管是吸引新的大學教師的人才，或者是產官學合作，光是這樣的經費也高達100億元，要分為80億元跟20億元，經費算是很多。所以我想要聽聽部長說明你們具體上要怎麼去運用這100億元，以達到我們未來臺灣的企業可以因為我們這100億元，讓大學端能培育出更多的人才，在不同企業的應用上讓他們找到他們要的人。我想要聽聽部長要怎麼操作。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心。確實現在科技產業那麼地興盛，其實連臺、成、清、交在許多理學院、工學院的師資都是聘不到的。簡單來講，我們會看到整個高等教育人才上世代的交替。譬如在102年，我們看到臺灣矽導計畫的時候，當時進來的這些電子、電機、資訊、資工的師資大概在10年後至少會退6成，我們擔心臺灣在未來產業的支撐力量，也擔心臺灣人才的未來，或許有許多學生讀理學院、讀工學院，但是我們可能沒有足夠好的師資去培養人才，包含支撐我們產業的一些力量。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是人才不要有斷層嘛！所以老師也很重要嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：企業讓他們導入，然後在學程的過程，讓企業導入也重要嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在這一次裡邊……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你們是不是就會成立更多類似的學程，然後讓企業界一起來訓練學生，讓這些學生一畢業後，就可以馬上到這些企業去就業？產官學合作差不多都是這樣的概念。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。跟委員報告，我們過去產業確實在產學合作比較少捐贈去成立一個講座，我們希望透過……這一個產業它也需要人才，那麼我們怎麼樣借重產業許多的企業社會責任，包含大學人才的培育，產業也能夠捐贈5,000萬元、1億元成立講座，這個講座是成立一個基金……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我想要問的是，你覺得講座的火候夠嗎？你還不如直接把它進入說我就是要開類似企業所需要的學程、學分？你直接把它這樣開出來啊！你單用一個講座，也許對學生來說他只是去聽課，他未必會列為學習的重點。"],["鄭部長英耀：這裡面是跟整個人才培育，包括尖端人才的延攬有關。持平而論，現在大學許多能量要用我們的公務預算去支撐一個比較高階的研究有一定的困難，所以我們希望產業也能夠扮演一定的責任。"],["蔡委員易餘：產業加入，這個是要的。但是我更希望的是，因為現在整個產業跟過去幾年對於臺灣變成矽的產業，就是所謂晶圓的產業，基本上我們都有一些概念。可是現在的進步又不一樣了，現在AI的時代，跳的速度太快了，所以可能有一些產業現在的技術已經在大學端這邊沒有跟上。如果要讓大學端可以跟上的話，由企業直接進入大學去開……比方說現在有矽光子的產業、現在有所謂AI應用的產業、現在有所謂無人機材料的產業，這些東西如果我們可以讓大學端跟企業做更好的結盟，我想未來培養出來的人都會是企業想要的人。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，委員的想法跟我們在產研合作的部分事實上是異曲同工的。也就是說我們看到來自於醫學院人才的model，醫學院的教授在醫學院教書，但是他臨床裡也看診。他有兩份薪水，一個來自於醫院，一個來自於大學，我們希望能夠用這樣的模式，讓這些企業的尖端人才也來跟大學合作。我們有提一個類醫學院的model……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我接下來可能會跟嘉義的幾家大學與教育部來計劃一些方案。我覺得現在大學端也有跟企業在談，希望未來訓練出來的更多是屬於現在新的AI、新的一些科技人才類。大學希望這樣做，教育部又有這個特別預算，應該來支持這一塊，讓他們做的時候更加地有資源，這樣好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想不僅尖端科技，在人文社會、各個領域的人才，我們都樂在這裡……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啦！都要啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：希望讓臺灣高教人才的永續培育跟發展有一個穩定的力量。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。我想這個特別預算，教育部的部分我覺得大家會支持，就希望未來我們要好好來做，這樣好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢。","接下來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163938","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163938","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0090769c5455415132b1f00580874b15590b149bf9762da92dc3fb96d4c95e3195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"13:02:31 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謝謝主席 先請經濟部龔 龔部長好 請龔部長"},{"start":12.434,"end":34.648,"text":"第一個問題請教您就是這個台積電二奈米在那個男子產業園區預定設立五個廠所有的進度都在時序上面每一廠都會按照進度來進行還有稍微提前代表說市政府的效力跟決心只要有心"},{"start":35.569,"end":49.278,"text":"就會有成只要沒心什麼事情都不會成剛師傅就是有心有決斷力有執行力媒體頭版報導1.4奈米也可能在高雄您的訊息怎麼樣"},{"start":51.083,"end":77.949,"text":"那個可能是第六場喔我知道不過他們明天這樣寫1.4奈米不可能空穴來風那你一定是這個訊息中人啊那個可能還是有台積電來對外說明比較好還是有台積電對外說明比較好你了解的訊息跟媒體所揭露的方向有沒有一致我也是看媒體包裝雜誌有揭露說有第六場如果是訊息是真的我做夢都會笑對"},{"start":80.571,"end":94.489,"text":"這個代表說先進製程在台灣的高雄成為這個最先進製程的製造中心是 現在兩奈米就已經在高雄量產所以我期待國務部長再推一把勁"},{"start":95.915,"end":121.822,"text":"如果有適當的場合再跟台積電再推薦再請他們能夠把這個1.4奈米的第六廠也設在這個高雄那高雄不見得要在南芷在白埔也不錯你聽到我意思嗎我知道好謝謝這個部長那接下來內政部劉部長休息一下"},{"start":123.174,"end":125.436,"text":"國家的安全跟出入境的管制很重要"},{"start":148.57,"end":175.89,"text":"所以 您三位 包括部長 包括兩位署長一個是這個官務的檢查一個是這個行李安檢的檢查國人出國啊第一個 安檢最重要 安檢必須要確實我們的出國旅行難得安心跟放心出國人數那麼多如果安檢不確實 不到位留意形勢或者安檢設備"},{"start":177.97,"end":205.179,"text":"落後老舊所以我看過這個安檢設備你不用比日韓日韓三線的城市都比台灣的安檢設備好太多了比起這個東南亞城市東南亞國家我們還是第一 倒數第一這個安檢的設備怎麼會落後到這種程度都要人工去搬運甚至在看這個螢幕的航體人員還要去協助搬運"},{"start":206.673,"end":220.919,"text":"人力不足是長期以來的問題不是你當署長才有的所以你要跟部長反映你要跟院長反映 跟總統反映國軍的安檢很重要一有閃失整個飛機都會受到安全的影響"},{"start":222.884,"end":248.116,"text":"外國旅客也沒有信心 我在看這國家門門啊一條線一個航警局的同仁在看monitor而且要看得確實 我希望要兢兢業業看得確實你們看到一半又起來 又幫忙搬那個行李這個行李是外面的保全公司 如果行李看起來monitor有異議要打開行李檢查 誰檢查 那個署長"},{"start":250.779,"end":276.835,"text":"我們的警察 現狀是嗎現狀不是 現狀是保全公司在檢查還有碩果專業訓練嗎你要去現場看一下所有機場我都幫你巡視過了松山 桃一桃二跟小港安檢一定要很重視你把當作一回事很重要的事情這跟國家安全 國家安全是國家的任性"},{"start":278.41,"end":292.677,"text":"如果外國官方看到 哇 這是安檢 台灣的安檢他們會怕怕的所以人員一定要補足 設備要更新我今天有提案你要有一個設備更新的時程全亞洲倒數第一名的安檢設備就是中華民國我很不客氣這樣講 你去現場看一下"},{"start":304.543,"end":331.07,"text":"人員人力不足 行政人員也吵到要死太吵他會打架 他要怎麼好好看所以說你要把它當作一回事來看另外 關務署 旅客回國關務署的同仁 主席再給我一分鐘關務署的同仁 大批旅客出國我看到大概兩名在那邊 就是免報關稅的"},{"start":333.595,"end":335.496,"text":"非洲豬瘟固然把守很重要"},{"start":352.625,"end":377.392,"text":"但你要看看他的效益如何我只請教你這個問題我們國家花2億去請保險公司保險公司的預算比安檢的預算人員還多比方昨天兩條線配置20個人員他只不過把行李放過來再經過X光機這些保險公司的同仁還有這個專業去判斷哪些是違禁品嗎"},{"start":379.284,"end":401.703,"text":"其他的都協助行李搬運一條多少十倍 兩條多少二十倍有需要動用那麼多的國家經費嗎為了人力不縮減把這個人力再撥給警政署呢我不是不支持你們的政策但是我支持你們的政策你們把錢放在刀口上不要留意情勢 不要留意浪費部長你回應一下"},{"start":405.359,"end":422.016,"text":"我先跟委員說明一下就是有關於我們進口針對非洲豬瘟的這些檢查的部分然後在手提行李我們現在上次委員有提到就是不能完全用保全能源一定是我們有配出的能源沒有 你們房檢署我每次去沒有一個房檢署你調形師去看看"},{"start":422.757,"end":446.719,"text":"然後另外沒有一個防檢局人員在那邊全部都是我在那邊站著看了一分鐘沒有一個你們這個農業部同仁這個部分我想我會再來去了解他們回報是說他們有正式的桃園分屬的獨島人員在那邊我初也算是平凡我很認真去看"},{"start":448.703,"end":477.792,"text":"沒有一個防疫警局人員全部都是這個大部分人力是在怎麼樣在協助搬運行李你何必那麼多人去協助搬運行李呢部長 這個政策確實值得講而且很多人可能反映為什麼還要再加安檢一次意義在哪裡成效如果真的有成效每次都造成塞車啦如果有成效你跟我講你把數據提供給我沒有成效為什麼要你一年要花兩億邱委員 請大家把用書面詳細給你做報告好不好書面我都看過好幾次"},{"start":483.465,"end":494.393,"text":"我想跟委員報告我也知道就是說在增加觀光人潮的時候它的確是一個關卡但是現在我們在後在國內的部分因為還是有除以"},{"start":496.035,"end":511.031,"text":"養豬那有廚餘養豬它的風險就必須要去處理那你這個政策要執行到何時所以相對的就是我們現在在整個跨部會在討論的時候我們也希望說逐步的把這個廚餘禁養禁用廚餘我問你嘛很簡單你的政策要執行到何時嘛"},{"start":512.585,"end":523.868,"text":"因為用廚餘養豬這個東西必須跟業者在溝通特別在桃園地區有很多廚餘養豬的部分另外這個張署長還有這個彭署長就你們執行面你們要求同仁戰戰兢兢的時間超過太多了我們再十秒要戰戰兢兢的執行公務要讓旅客安心 讓國人安心"},{"start":537.911,"end":543.936,"text":"然後業務在執行的過程中一定要很認真邱委員你的問題署長都聽到了我們加強執行好不好謝謝邱志偉委員 謝謝接下來請王美惠委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1336,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時53分）謝謝主席，先請經濟部龔部長。"],["主席：請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：龔部長，第一個問題請教您，台積電2奈米在楠梓產業園區預定設立5個廠。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所有的進度都在時序上面。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：每一廠都會按照進度來進行。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員志偉：昨天看到媒體有一個……"],["龔部長明鑫：它要稍微提前，效率很好。"],["邱委員志偉：對，代表市政府的效率跟決心嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員志偉：只要有心就會有成，只要沒心什麼事情都不會成，高雄市政府就是有心、有決斷力、有執行力。媒體頭版報導1.4奈米也可能在高雄，您的訊息怎麼樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：那個可能還……"],["邱委員志偉：這是第6廠喔！"],["龔部長明鑫：我知道，那個可能還是……"],["邱委員志偉：我看媒體上寫1.4奈米，不可能空穴來風，那你一定是訊息中人，你是訊息中人。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個可能還是由台積電來對外說明比較好。"],["邱委員志偉：你掌握的訊息、你瞭解的訊息跟媒體所揭露的方向有沒有一致？"],["龔部長明鑫：我也是看媒體，報章雜誌揭露說有第6廠。"],["邱委員志偉：如果這個訊息是真的，我做夢都會笑！代表說先進製程在臺灣的高雄成為最先進製程的製造中心。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，這個是……"],["邱委員志偉：這個樂觀其成，也期待……"],["龔部長明鑫：現在2奈米就已經在高雄量產。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我期待龔部長再推一把勁。"],["龔部長明鑫：會。"],["邱委員志偉：如果有適當的場合再跟台積電推薦，請他們能夠把1.4奈米的第6廠也設在高雄，那高雄不見得要在楠梓，在白埔也不錯，你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝部長。","接下來是內政部，劉部長休息一下，請警政署署長。"],["主席：張署長。"],["邱委員志偉：關務署彭署長，然後農業部部長。"],["主席：關務署彭署長、農業部陳部長。"],["邱委員志偉：國家的安全與出入境的管制很重要，所以3位，包括部長、包括2位署長，一個是關務的檢查，一個是行李安檢的檢查。","國人出國，第一個，安檢最重要，安檢必須要確實，我們的出國旅行才能安心跟放心，因為出國的人數那麼多，如果安檢不確實、不到位、流於形式，或者安檢設備落後老舊……我看過這個安檢設備，你不用比日韓，日韓三線的城市都比臺灣的安檢設備好太多了！比起東南亞的國家，我們還是第一，倒數第一啊！安檢的設備怎麼會落後到這種程度？都要人工去搬運，甚至在看螢幕的航警人員還要去協助搬運！","人力不足是長期以來的問題，不是你當署長才有的，所以你要跟部長反映，你要跟院長反映，跟總統反映，國境的安檢很重要耶！一有閃失，整個飛機的安全都會受到影響，外國旅客也沒有信心，他看到這個國家的門面怎麼會這樣？一條線，一個航警局的同仁在看monitor，而且要看得確實喔！我希望要兢兢業業，要看得確實，有時候看到一半又起來幫忙搬行李，這個行李是外面的保全公司，如果行李從monitor看起來有疑義，要打開行李檢查，誰檢查？署長。"],["張署長榮興：請我們的警察同仁。"],["邱委員志偉：現狀是嗎？現狀是嗎？現狀不是啊！現狀是保全公司在檢查，他有受過專業訓練嗎？你要去現場看一下。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所有機場我都幫你巡視過了，松山、桃機桃一桃二與小港，安檢一定要很重視，你要把它當作一回事，一個很重要的事情，因為這種涉及國家安全，國家安全就是國家的韌性耶！如果外國觀光客看到，哇！這個是臺灣的安檢，他坐飛機會害怕耶！所以人員一定要補足，設備要更新。我今天有提案，你要有一個設備更新的時程。全亞洲第一名，倒數第一名的安檢設備就是中華民國，我很不客氣這樣講，你去現場看一下，人員的人力不足。","第二個，航警人員也操得要死，太操他會打瞌睡，他不會好好地去看，所以署長，你要把它當作一回事來看。"],["張署長榮興：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，關務署，關務署的同仁面對大批旅客出國，我看大概有2名在那邊，就是免報關稅的，要認真去看，不要看手機，你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：我瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：現場大家都在出入，你不要在那裡看手機，給人家的觀感不好。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，農業部部長，非洲豬瘟固然拔除很重要，但你要看看它的效益如何。我只請教你這個問題，我們國家花2億去請保全公司，保全公司的預算比安檢的預算、人員還多，比方說昨天2條線配置20個人員，他只不過把行李放過來，再經過X光機，這些保全公司的同仁他有這個專業去判斷哪些是違禁品嗎？其他的都協助行李搬運，1條線10個，2條線20個，有需要動用那麼多的國家經費嗎？為什麼人力不縮減，把這些人力再撥給警政署呢？我不是不支持你們的政策，我支持你們的政策，但是你們要把錢花在刀口上，不要流於形式，不要流於浪費！部長，你回應一下。"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員說明一下，有關於我們針對進口非洲豬瘟的檢查，在手提行李的部分，上次委員有提到不能完全用保全人員，一定是我們有派駐的人員……"],["邱委員志偉：沒有！我每次去，沒有一個防檢署的人員，你調監視器看看！你調監視器看看！我在那邊站著看了一分鐘，沒有一個你們農業部的同仁，全部都是保全公司！"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我會再去了解。"],["邱委員志偉：你每次都說要，哪有一次辦到？"],["陳部長駿季：他們回報是說，他們有正式桃園分署的督導人員在那邊。"],["邱委員志偉：一個都沒有啦！我出入也算是頻繁，我很認真去看，沒有一個你們防檢署的人員，全部都是……大部分的人力是在協助搬運行李，你何必那麼多人去協助搬運行李呢？"],["主席：部長，這個政策確實值得檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：而且很多人跟我反映，為什麼還要再安檢一次？意義在哪裡？如果真的有成效，你跟我講！你把數據提供給我。"],["主席：是啊！每次都造成塞車啦！很多人民共同的體驗。"],["邱委員志偉：如果沒有成效，為什麼你一年要花兩億？"],["主席：邱委員，請他用書面詳細跟你做報告好不好？"],["邱委員志偉：書面我都看過好幾次了！"],["主席：再做，好不好？最近的結果看怎麼樣。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，你要回應一下。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我也知道在增加觀光人潮的時候，它的確是一個關卡。但是現在我們在國內的部分，因為還是有廚餘養豬，它的風險就必須要去處理。"],["邱委員志偉：那你這個政策要執行到何時？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在在整個跨部會討論的時候，也希望逐步禁用廚餘……"],["邱委員志偉：我問你嘛！很簡單！你的政策要執行到何時嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：因為用廚餘養豬這個東西必須跟業者再溝通，特別在桃園地區有很多用廚餘養豬。"],["主席：邱委員，我想這個講不完啦！你就……"],["邱委員志偉：另外，張署長，還有彭署長，你們在執行面要要求同仁戰戰兢兢……"],["主席：邱委員，時間到了啦！你時間超過太多了。再15秒好不好？"],["邱委員志偉：我再10秒。要戰戰兢兢地執行公務，要讓旅客安心、讓國人安心啊！"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["邱委員志偉：業務在執行的過程中，一定要很認真，不要讓人家說還在滑手機，這樣不好。"],["主席：好啦！邱委員，你的問題署長都聽到了，我們加強執行好不好？"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","接下來請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163936","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163936","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff052ae96f1c984a38141e1338d15ff711a90b149bf9762da92effd30bbe266b48c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"12:55:58 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我剛已經跟高雄市政府催促希望他們今年12月以前可以跟高鐵公司跟交通部這邊來做一個配合"},{"start":242.927,"end":260.276,"text":"是我們跟高雄市政府一直有暢通的溝通有關於稍微相關的審查的部分都在進行不過我們還是以明年中來動工為原則只是第一點跟委員報告第二個就是整個經費目前評估起來大概高達十二億的部分我們也繼續跟相關還好不是第一次聽到我就摔倒了"},{"start":261.016,"end":283.352,"text":"我没有想到经费会这么高但是我们希望我们可以全力来促成这一个短短的连通道其中也有一个因素我们也要说明清楚这个左营高铁站有三个月台但是这三个月台都是在目前使用当中所以它其实办办施工以及它要利用收班以后的夜间施工事实上是造成它经费膨胀的一个很重要的原因"},{"start":283.692,"end":292.778,"text":"那我們預計工期要多久如果明年動工的話我想這個部分我們可能還要再更精算的談跟委員報告不過時間可能沒辦法太短 對"},{"start":294.132,"end":320.568,"text":"時間沒辦法太短其實它只有不到100公尺是希望高鐵公司跟高雄市政府這邊我也會來協助讓這一條路更讓這一條行人連通道可以更順暢最後請問部長是波音現在好像跟美國談好了波音包括華航公司這一部分那我希望不管是三架還是四架還是五架這個787的部分它可能可以飛這個跨州航空可以佈局小港機場部長"},{"start":321.909,"end":335.19,"text":"是 報告委員目前交機的部分華航正在努力當中我們希望能夠加快速度那如果飛機交過來之後我們希望說高雄能夠有更好 更大 更新的這個飛機可以飛洲際的航線這個部分我們在努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝趙偉 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兩位辛苦了我想延續剛剛陳菊委員有提到的問題我想就是你在宜蘭問宜蘭人說現在目前遇到最大的問題是什麼其實大概有一半的人都跟你說是交通問題所以陳委員跟我其實我們一直都在討論這交通的問題"},{"start":37.136,"end":61.253,"text":"那其實我一直很希望說我們能夠做到讓宜蘭人能夠提早15分鐘到家其實如果我們可以做到的話那其實是對那邊的一個最大的我們能夠為他們奉獻出來的一件事情所以剛剛陳委員有提到東山交流道的問題所以我想說我就順著這個議題下去我們今天比較聚焦在這個部分"},{"start":61.789,"end":74.848,"text":"我想那個部長跟局長一定也都知道說其實東山是宜蘭人口第三大的都市嘛那因為人口很多啊而且我們的國道5號他有5公里是有經過這個東山"},{"start":77.574,"end":96.887,"text":"那可是因為他沒有交流到那所以很多人他從這第三大的城市他要上國道五號他可能他必須要繞到羅東或是蘇澳也就是說他除了造成羅東跟蘇澳這邊很容易塞車之外他可能有這個進出也需要花時間所以他"},{"start":97.935,"end":111.87,"text":"常常都需要多花二三十分鐘而且很容易造成蘇澳或羅東那羅東或蘇澳這個地方很多地方它的地面的交通會打結這也是當地人一直有意見的地方那其實我看了一下這個"},{"start":114.454,"end":132.063,"text":"我們這可行性的評估案其實去年審查已經通過了嘛對不對所以去年四月他第二次審查會議已經通過報告書也已經修正高工局的審議那去年十二月高工局是不是就已經送到交通部了"},{"start":132.603,"end":160.208,"text":"部長是這樣嗎是到今年年初因為跟委員報告因為這個可行性是地方提那因為地方要提交流道的設計的形式那形式的話就是說當初提的就是說因為比如說南北向都要提不過因為東山它比較靠近國五的南比較偏蘇澳比較尾端的所以往尾端那個地方的這個方向其實方向性不夠所以我們當然請他們做個修正"},{"start":160.728,"end":180.036,"text":"即便從年初啦因為我我手邊知道是12月 沒關係即便從今年年初那其實也卡了蠻久那我想要了解一下目前狀況怎麼樣可不可以麻煩部長或局長說明一下目前是在部裡面正在做審議啦我們會診各單位的意見各部會的意見我們正在做審議"},{"start":182.273,"end":208.902,"text":"還在審議 是不是可是已經蠻久了因為我這樣講因為我自己譬如說看宜蘭還有另外一個案子我們先看一下高鐵案其實在宜蘭的地方當然大部分人都蠻支持但是他有一些不同的聲音曾經大家有在那邊有一些強烈的分歧但是當時只有一個一場公聽會之後就趕快送交環評其實我覺得高鐵中央對於高鐵的這個動作反而是"},{"start":209.622,"end":228.125,"text":"很積極那對於幾乎沒有什麼在地方沒有什麼爭議的這個交流道的部分感覺速度卻很慢這是我的第一個我覺得奇怪的地方那再來一個就是台南新營交流道他在去年8月審查通過等於是比"},{"start":229.674,"end":247.275,"text":"這個東山的這個更慢才審查通過但是呢他他卻很快在九月今年九月的時候行政院就已經核定了所以他的速度本來是比宜蘭慢但是呢他他行政院核定的速度卻很快那我想說"},{"start":248.796,"end":272.743,"text":"當然我不想要就是說 有一些人地方上有些人說這一定是政治考量那台南那邊就會比較快 宜蘭就一定比較慢我們不去討論這個但是可不可以麻煩不要讓地方上的人有這樣的懷疑或讓我們有這樣的懷疑能夠麻煩交通部這裡能夠加快速度不知道部長報告委員 這個懷疑是不需要有的那我們也會加快速度 是"},{"start":273.143,"end":291.514,"text":"麻煩一定要加快因為這個這個案子在地方上面不管是縣府不管是議會不管是地方的人每一個人都是期待沒有分任何顏色大家都期待所以這個要麻煩部長不要讓地方人懷疑不要讓我們懷疑就是我們一起努力讓地方更好"},{"start":291.854,"end":316.713,"text":"好不好這是我這邊拜託你們就是能夠做到的因為而且縣府對於周邊的那些環境其實他們也全力在做了有一些什麼什麼側邊道路的那個其實縣府都一直在做所以我想說我還是套一句那個宜蘭開墾的那個仙人無砂牆的路難通 怕損這會成功所以麻煩改善一下交通讓宜蘭這個人能夠"},{"start":317.815,"end":326.655,"text":"進去 觀光客進去 經濟自然就會發達年輕人也才能夠回到宜蘭找到工作好不好 麻煩部長 麻煩局長謝謝大家在這邊跟各位拜託 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簡單扼要好 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謝謝"},{"start":168.707,"end":181.939,"text":"那接著本席想那個次長您請留步因為後面還有共同的題目那呂次長想請教因為部長在院會總質詢的時候是特別講你們兩年內要訪視70萬個獨居老人對沒錯"},{"start":185.962,"end":210.309,"text":"那一年要35萬你的人力在哪裡報告委員我們現在目前這個部分我非常感謝內政部的這個協助我們這個部分會跟內政部這邊我們會請村里長跟村里幹事他來協同我們一起去做這一個整個所以村里長村里幹事不用培訓他們就自然知道你們的訪視只是去看一下人是不是報告委員因為老實說我們要進去訪視"},{"start":211.989,"end":218.636,"text":"我也知道現在目前大家也很怕那個會有詐騙所以一定要村里長所以有搭配內政部內政部這個村里長的部分但是我們這邊也會有專責的就是這個訪視人員訪視人員進去所以你們盤點了嗎盤點了嗎大概要多少人一年35萬的獨居老人你要多少人力有盤點嗎這個部分"},{"start":231.85,"end":253.581,"text":"我們會跟內政部那邊 我們會來跟他們還沒有盤點這個預算怎麼編出來的包委員 我們現在目前 我就成如跟委員說就是說我們現在目前主要是村里長這邊我們會編那個 就是說這個訪視費啦讓他們陪同所以是村里長搭配林長對 林長沒有 就村里長對 村里長還有村里幹事"},{"start":254.878,"end":283.659,"text":"喔 所以你們是打算用這樣的方式對 沒錯 就一定 報告委員這一定要透過跟民政這邊的這一個大家共同合作這樣才能夠有一個整個通盤我跟委員報告啦那你還有加強送餐關懷對 沒錯 沒錯 還送餐關懷那這個是經費再補貼嗎對 報告委員 我們現在目前就是說那個整個獨居的這個長輩他現在盤出來我們會分輕 中 重那主要是重度的部分的話我們才需要有這個所謂的送餐服務"},{"start":284.079,"end":308.375,"text":"最後40秒我想請教兩位次長你們的媒體宣傳費這次編太多了吧勞動部編了4000萬衛福部編了3253萬4000元告訴我用在哪裡我跟委員報告第一件事情就是說特別預算是編到兩年半兩年目前十月兩年三個月的時間那並不是今年三個月用在哪裡"},{"start":308.895,"end":336.228,"text":"用在哪裡第二個部分是我們其實勞動部就既有的管道我們都是動用自己的同仁去做相應的部分再處理但是我們過往去下鄉去跟工會座談去跟僱主座談去跟勞工座談他們都覺得還是要加大相應的力道所以我們評估的結果在既有的勞動部的官網 YouTube這些既有的管道其實沒有辦法接觸到所有不同受影響的產業類別的勞工和受種所以我們才會去"},{"start":337.088,"end":359.747,"text":"何時去編列相應的經費真的沒有很清楚 你再說面給我我們給呂市長回答完好不好非常簡要 因為我也知道獨居長輩 獨居老人他的溝通管道 還有溝通媒體跟我們一般人不太一樣他們很多 事實上可能在家裡所以我們需要透過很多譬如像廣播還有像電視這些方式來跟這些"},{"start":362.369,"end":373.352,"text":"其實都已經村里長配合了所以你們這個錢真的編的過度那個市長 你詳細用書面討論一下好 詳細用書面好 感謝許委員 謝謝您的關心接下來我們請黃建斌委員黃建斌沒來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1246,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時43分）謝謝主席，本席有請勞動部長，還有衛福部長。"],["主席：勞動部次長，因為部長請假。"],["徐委員欣瑩：勞動部次長，好。"],["主席：我們就請陳次長，還有衛福部呂次長。"],["陳次長明仁：徐委員好。抱歉，洪部長在衛環，所以我代替。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩位都次長。首先就勞動部的部分，昨天在院會施政總質詢的時候，本席有特別問到院長，那部長有特別講說150億支持安定就業的部分有很多的課程，除了補貼給勞工，還有一些課程，那我想請教，有關相關的課程內容，你們請的講師的資格、他教學內容的水準，由誰把關？"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，我們勞動部在這一次特別條例的邏輯上……"],["徐委員欣瑩：講重點啦！因為我只有5分鐘。"],["陳次長明仁：好，不好意思。相關的課程，其實我們平常在勞工的充電訓練、相應訓練本來就有一定的機制要求。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就是用平常的師資？"],["陳次長明仁：不是，我們本來就有一定的機制在要求，包括辦訓的單位要符合我們TTQS的辦訓品質，然後它提供辦訓的相關課程內容都需要經過我們的同意，所以師資上我們都會去做把關，我們也會開各式各樣的課程符合勞工的需求。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不、不，這一次這150億你有沒有在把關？"],["陳次長明仁：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還是你就是用以前的師資？"],["陳次長明仁：不是，我跟委員報告，大家一直都誤會我們跟平常的業務混在一起，其實不是這樣看，應該這樣說，勞動部的勞動力發展署對於職業訓練、就業服務，本來就是我們平常的核心工作，但是這一次碰到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，你就告訴我，你師資的資格怎麼審查？有沒有審查？"],["陳次長明仁：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有審查。"],["陳次長明仁：我們會要求一定的師資。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，審查紀錄可否公開？"],["陳次長明仁：當然可以，公開資訊都是可以的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以齁？"],["陳次長明仁：但是我要跟委員報告，其實我們相關的訓練課程、班期等各方面都有很多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！教學內容的水準你怎麼把關？你上課有沒有管考？"],["陳次長明仁：我們上課當然……"],["徐委員欣瑩：譬如說他的到課率、滿意度。"],["陳次長明仁：都會有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後也有相關資料？"],["陳次長明仁：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["陳次長明仁：上課一定要有足夠的到訓率，否則我們就不會付這個錢，然後訓練之後，我們當然還會做品質滿意度的相應調查，如果是我們相應的職業訓練，我們還會看訓後的就業率。其實這邊都有一整套的機制在處理，我們在特別預算純粹只是把資格條件放寬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，之後再提供給我們辦公室，可以嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：是，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長，您請留步，因為後面還有共同的題目。","本席想請教呂次長，因為部長在院會總質詢的時候特別講，你們兩年內要訪視70萬個獨居老人。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：一年要35萬耶！"],["呂次長建德：正確。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的人力在哪裡？"],["呂次長建德：目前這個部分，我要非常感謝內政部的協助，我們這個部分會跟內政部合作，會請村里長跟村里幹事協同我們一起去做全國的訪視。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以村里長、村里幹事不用培訓，他們就自然知道？你們訪視只是去看一下人，是不是？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員，因為老實說我們要進去訪視，委員也知道現在大家很怕會有詐騙，所以一定要村里長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以有搭配內政部，內政部村里長的部分。"],["呂次長建德：對，但是我們這邊也會有專責的訪視人員，訪視人員進去，讓他……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們盤點了嗎？大概要多少人？一年35萬的獨居老人，你要多少人力？有盤點嗎？"],["呂次長建德：這個部分我們會跟內政部那邊，我們會來跟他們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還沒有盤點，這個預算怎麼編出來的？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，就誠如我跟委員說的，目前主要是村里長這邊，我們會編訪視費，讓他們陪同一起。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是村里長搭配鄰長？"],["呂次長建德：對，鄰長……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有？就村里長？"],["呂次長建德：對，村里長還有村里幹事。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是打算用這樣的方式。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，這一定要透過跟民政這邊大家共同合作，這樣才能夠有一個通盤。我跟委員報告，我們現在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你還有加強送餐關懷。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，還有送餐關懷。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那這個是經費再補貼嗎？"],["呂次長建德：對，報告委員，目前整個獨居的長輩盤出來後，我們會分輕中重，主要是重度的部分才需要有所謂的送餐服務。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，最後40秒，我想請教兩位次長，你們的媒體宣傳費這一次編太多了吧！勞動部編了4,000萬，衛福部編了3,253萬4,000元，告訴我用在哪裡。"],["陳次長明仁：我跟委員報告，第一件事情，特別預算是編到2年半。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["陳次長明仁：目前是10月，2年3個月的時間。"],["呂次長建德：對，2年3個月，沒錯。"],["陳次長明仁：那並不是今年3個月的錢，這是第一個。"],["徐委員欣瑩：用在哪裡了？用在哪裡？"],["陳次長明仁：第二個部分是，其實勞動部就既有的管道，我們都是動用自己的同仁去做相應部分的處理，但是過往我們下鄉去跟工會座談、去跟雇主座談、去跟勞工座談，他們都覺得還是要加大相應的力道，所以我們評估的結果，在既有的勞動部官網、YouTube，這些既有的管道其實沒有辦法接觸到所有受影響的不同產業類別的勞工和受眾，所以我們才會覈實地去編列相應的經費，然後用在不同的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這真的沒有很清楚，你再書面給我。"],["陳次長明仁：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們給呂次長回答完，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，非常簡要，因為委員也知道，獨居長輩、獨居老人的溝通管道還有溝通媒體跟一般人不太一樣，很多人事實上可能在家裡，所以我們需要透過很多譬如像廣播電視等方式來跟這些……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不是都已經跟村里長配合了？所以你們這個錢真的編得過度。"],["呂次長建德：我們會多管道來……其實報告委員……"],["主席：次長，你詳細用書面答復給徐委員好了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，詳細用書面。"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝徐委員，謝謝您的關心。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","接下來請黃建賓委員。黃建賓委員、黃建賓委員不在。","接下來請林俊憲委員。林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","接下來請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163930","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163930","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff00dee159b442bf05841e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07db0ed05b3693a1b515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:42:49 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這個看到我就知道我要繼續問什麼對不對這個國道客運的部分 是我先感謝一下公路局前一段時間有積極幫忙協調我們在南侃的地方1841也好 5250也好班次上都做了一些調整讓班次可以增加但既然班次要增加因為我們在這個過程之中其實也找了客運業者一起來談那他的老問題其實並沒有被解決也就是說司機缺額的問題還是沒有被處理"},{"start":32.793,"end":49.441,"text":"那馬上又到預算會期你要編明年度的預算那我大概看了一下好像也是沒有新的政策出來這本期還是覺得比較遺憾部長我們到底什麼時候可以徹底解決薪資缺口的問題報告委員其實人力缺口的這個議題在各個交通的單位都遇到同樣的狀況"},{"start":51.022,"end":75.128,"text":"應該全臺灣的各行各業都遇到同樣的狀況那您在提醒的這個薪資的部分我們也很感謝桃園市政府桃園市政府針對這個駕駛的薪資的部分其實也有做一定的努力我們交通部的部分也會做一定的補助跟協助這個部分其實過去像您所說的過去該做的方案我們繼續再做那委員如果有更好的建議或許可以建議給我們我們來思考看怎麼樣精進"},{"start":75.928,"end":96.959,"text":"那個我就是要談這件事情因為現在是地方政府走得比中央政府快那就會出現一些什麼樣的狀況比如說新竹縣就有授訓級就業的補助計畫授訓期間生活津貼等等錢領得不少當然因為新竹縣之前也因為公車司機的問題客運業者出現很大的狀況桃園市加碼補貼最簡單一個人一萬"},{"start":99.84,"end":126.491,"text":"雙北現在也講了在運價調整的時候他們編列預算補貼票價短差之外他有附帶要求客運業者要把這一筆相關的票差補貼拿來變成司機加薪好 那各地來做之後就出現一個狀況就變市區公車跟國道客運搶人因為現在市區公車的待遇變好了國道客運待遇沒有變那就變成市區公車的人力荒稍微疏解可是國道客運的人力荒加劇"},{"start":127.671,"end":155.463,"text":"那問題就出現了那那怎麼辦呢可是國道客運我也不能要求我台灣市政府去補貼國道客運這樣蠻奇怪的嘛主管機關現在怎麼樣都是公路局嘛那現在是北北基桃還有剛剛宜蘭對不對這都是國道客運那個重運重度需求的這樣子的一些縣市跟通勤需求是有相關的那如果國道客運的這樣子的一個新司機的駕駛的待遇不夠好你中央沒有進行相應的補貼你至少要把水準拉起那就會造成"},{"start":156.784,"end":172.159,"text":"公路客運的價值就沒有辦法上升啊對不對你可以看表格嘛市區客運價值之前疫情完之後下降下降完之後季初這補貼之後他就回升到正常的水準但國道客運沒有嘛他沒有相應的往上"},{"start":173.239,"end":199.393,"text":"我們其實有做加碼啦那或許加碼的速度沒有市區客運這麼多那但是這個部分加碼我們有加碼不過實際上我們要增加整體的人才庫那才是最關鍵的那這個部分我們盡量來努力做你都講了你要努力做我當然希望我也知道你在努力做但是具體的方案是什麼呢你總要有個案子然後多少錢時間表你講我要擴大人才庫所以我從人才庫下手"},{"start":199.753,"end":214.448,"text":"生化化委員這個部分一直都有在做我請局長跟您報告請跟委員報告一下當然這個就是說四季缺元的部分是一個比較多面向的一個課題啦是啊那剛剛委員也提到一個重點事務上大概公路科運跟四季科運大家也在這個搶人對"},{"start":216.05,"end":239.382,"text":"那兩個方面第一個部分的話大概就是費率的調整那因為費率調整市區客運的費率跟公路客運各有又不一樣嘛對有調整的客運但是我們公路客運包括一般公路客運國道客運跟一般公路客運的部分的話目前我們也是只要工會有這個建議的話我們就會這個啟動上一次工會建議的時候講了講半天調調一點點"},{"start":240.963,"end":252.706,"text":"對不對我就擔心這個事嘛你當然都有努力但是你顯然你的強度跟實際上數據的反應沒有顯現成果嘛然後第二個部分的話就是我們從這個月開始這個北中南就會啟動四個這個招募的一個這個活動"},{"start":259.868,"end":280.148,"text":"然後現在就是說這個加碼的部分的話其實剛剛委員有提到我們從新進到培養到這個9任獎金的話其實整個加起來高達21萬元的部分那我們也希望說透過這樣子的一個誘因多鼓勵一些人能夠唯一能夠檢證你的努力跟你的加碼有沒有效果其實就是業者的反應跟具體的數字"},{"start":283.371,"end":293.677,"text":"那顯然就是有落差我是希望交通部可以再做研議跟改善該條捷運好幾百億對不對你下一個專案幫客運業者這個地方司機做加薪"},{"start":294.844,"end":315.024,"text":"我跟你講效果會比較好啦那你未來再去談增班增加路線他其實會有正面效果這我都講很多次了啦好不好部長你把還有局長把相關的這樣子的一些方案你會要提供資料給本席可以嗎好沒問題好另外還有花一點點時間另外一個題目我也要提醒一下我在你的業務報告裡面喔有看到你們在講說我現在這個科育業者"},{"start":315.484,"end":336.396,"text":"訓具要電動化嘛 希望他改用電動化去減低碳排 這方向都正確的 我也很支持可是問題是你的配套啊 對不對 你是不是有有大客車 電動大客車 你是不是有充電的問題那我看你的郵報來講 我現在幫忙偵測相關的一些充電樁等等 你大概都放在你現在可以調度的區域 比如說高速公路的休息站啊 對不對 部分的這些"},{"start":337.256,"end":364.278,"text":"這些小的地方但關鍵是什麼你們有沒有跟客運業者了解一下客運業者最大除了司機缺員另外一個是廠站不足我沒有停車場你說地方上也可以編停車場用地給他地方停車場當然都優先解決私家車停車問題部長以前做過議員應該也很清楚對不對你很難實務上讓公共汽車的大客車的停車場變成優先性比較高所以我認為這個部分其實也需要交通部安排專案的政策誘因"},{"start":365.399,"end":381.872,"text":"你怎麼樣去輔導客運業者跟地方政府協調或者是由你中央來主導去增加駐車場站那可以配合你的大型的這個客運的電動化充電的配套你是不是一併安排好你這樣整套的運具轉型的這樣的政策才會成功嘛"},{"start":382.532,"end":398.431,"text":"部長這個部分你有沒有什麼樣的想法住車場站的部分您在建議的這個部分我們會跟業者大家來討論那也要跟地方政府大家一起來討論因為說實在的地都不在交通部的手上當然所以政策誘因很重要大家一起來商量這個事"},{"start":399.272,"end":424.867,"text":"那另外一方面我們希望說未來的整個充電的效率可以再更提高所以我們也正在研議說怎麼樣用AI的系統讓它充電的效率更提高讓它的充電樁不需要裝那麼多場站不需要那麼多但是每一台車都能夠充到電這個部分我們正在研究當中部長我希望你召集一下地方各個交通局也好還有客運業者來針對場站跟電動運具的轉型啦你也許開一個研討會或什麼的嘛"},{"start":425.427,"end":436.689,"text":"好不好 你把相關具體的安排跟時間給我就是跟黃國昌委員一樣對不對你馬上就說安排會刊我希望你可以馬上安排開會我也要來參加 可以嗎好 不好意思主席 謝謝好 謝謝劉許廷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時42分）謝謝主席。交通部部長有請。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安，辛苦了。看到我，就知道我要繼續問什麼嘛，對不對？國道客運的部分，我先感謝一下，公路局前一段時間有積極幫忙協調南崁地方的客運，1841也好，5250也好，班次上都作了一些調整，好讓班次可以增加。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然班次要增加，我們在這個過程中，其實也找了客運業者一起來談嘛，他們的老問題並沒有被解決，也就是司機缺額的問題還是沒有被處理。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：馬上又到預算會期，你們要編明年度的預算，我大概看了一下，好像也沒有新的政策出來，本席還是覺得比較遺憾。部長，到底什麼時候可以徹底解決薪資缺口的問題？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實人力缺口的議題，在各個交通單位都遇到同樣的狀況。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊。"],["陳部長世凱：應該全臺灣的各行各業都遇到同樣的狀況。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["陳部長世凱：那您在提醒薪資的部分，我們也很感謝桃園市政府，桃園市政府針對駕駛薪資其實也有做一定的努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊。"],["陳部長世凱：交通部也會做一定的補助跟協助。這個部分，其實像您所說的，過去該做的方案，我們繼續在做，委員如果有更好的建議，或許可以建議給我們，我們來思考，看怎麼樣精進。"],["牛委員煦庭：我就是要談這件事情。因為現在是地方政府走得比中央政府快，那就會出現一些什麼樣的狀況？比如新竹縣就有受訓即就業的補助計畫，受訓期間生活津貼等等，錢領得不少，當然新竹縣之前也因為公車司機的問題，客運業者出現很大的狀況。桃園市的加碼補貼最簡單，一個月一萬。雙北現在也講，在運價調整的時候，他們編列預算補貼票價短差之外，有附帶要求，客運業者要把這一筆相關的票差補貼拿來變成司機加薪。","各地方政府做了之後，就出現一個狀況，變成市區公車跟國道客運搶人，因為現在市區公車司機的待遇變好了，國道客運司機待遇沒有變，市區公車的人力荒稍微紓解，可是國道客運的人力荒加劇，問題就出現了，那怎麼辦呢？","我也不能要求桃園市政府去補貼國道客運，這樣也滿奇怪的，因為主管機關怎麼樣都是公路局嘛！現在北北基桃，還有宜蘭都是國道客運重度需求的縣市，跟通勤需求是有相關的。如果國道客運駕駛的待遇不夠好，中央沒有進行相應的補貼，你至少要把水準拉齊，否則就會讓公路客運的駕駛沒有辦法上升。你可以看看這表格，市區客運駕駛之前在疫情完了後下降，祭出這個補貼之後，又回升到正常的水準，但國道客運就沒有相應的往上。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，我們其實有做加碼，或許加碼的速度沒有市區客運這麼多，不過實際上我們要增加整體的人才庫，那才是最關鍵的，這個部分我們儘量來努力做。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長都講了要努力做，我當然知道，也希望你在努力做，但是具體的方案是什麼？你總要有個案子，然後有多少錢，還有時間表！你說要擴大人才庫，所以要從人才庫下手，這很好啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分一直都有在做，我請局長跟您報告。"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，司機缺員的部分是一個比較多面向的課題……"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊。"],["林局長福山：剛剛委員也提到一個重點，實務上大概公路客運跟市區客運，大家都在搶人。有兩個方面，第一個部分大概就是費率的調整，因為費率調整，市區客運的費率跟公路客運各有……"],["牛委員煦庭：又不一樣。"],["林局長福山：對，公路客運包括國道客運跟一般公路客運，目前只要工會有這一個建議，我們就會這個啟動……"],["牛委員煦庭：上一次工會建議的時候，講了半天，就只調一點點，我就擔心這個事嘛！你們當然都有努力，但顯然你的強度跟實際上數據的反映，沒有顯現出成果嘛！"],["林局長福山：第二個部分，就是我們從這個月開始，北中南會啟動四個招募活動。加碼的部分，剛剛委員也有提到，我們從新進到培養到這個久任獎金的部分，整個加起來高達21萬元，我們希望透過這樣的一個誘因，多鼓勵一些人，能夠……"],["牛委員煦庭：唯一能夠檢證你的努力跟你的加碼，有沒有效果，其實就是業者的反映跟具體的數字嘛！顯然就是有落差！本席希望交通部可以再做研議跟改善，開一條捷運要好幾百億，你下一個專案，幫客運業者的司機加薪，我跟你講效果會比較好，你未來再去談增班、增加路線，也會有正面效果，這些我都講很多次了。請部長還有局長會後把相關的一些方案資料，提供給本席，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，另外我要再多花一點點時間，提出另外一個題目，我在你的業務報告裡面看到，你們說要讓客運業者的運具電動化，希望他改用電動化去減低碳排，這個方向是正確的，我也很支持，問題是你的配套呢？電動大客車是不是有充電的問題？你的業務報告說要幫忙增設相關的充電樁等等，大概都放在你現在可以調度的區域，比如高速公路的休息站，或一些小的地方；但關鍵是什麼，你們有沒有去跟客運業者了解，客運業者除了司機缺人，另外一個問題就是場站不足，他們沒有停車場。你說地方上可以編停車場用地給他，地方停車場當然都優先解決私家車停車問題，部長以前當過議員，應該也很清楚，實務上很難讓大客車停車場的優先性變成比較高。所以，我認為這部分其實也需要交通部安排專案的政策誘因，要怎麼樣去輔導客運業者跟地方政府協調，或是由你中央來主導，去增加駐車場站，就可以配合裝設大型客運電動化充電的配套，一併安排好，這樣整套的運具轉型政策才會成功。請問部長，對駐車場站的部分有什麼樣的想法？"],["陳部長世凱：您建議的這個部分，我們會跟業者來討論，當然也要跟地方政府大家一起來討論。說實在的，地都不在交通部手上。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，所以政策誘因很重要，大家一起商量。"],["陳部長世凱：另一方面，我們希望未來的整個充電效率可以再更提高，所以我們也正在研議怎麼樣用AI系統，讓它充電的效率更提高，讓充電樁不需要裝那麼多，場站不需要那麼多，但是每一輛車都能夠充到電，這個部分我們正在研究。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望部長能召集地方各個交通局，還有客運業者，針對場站跟電動運具的轉型，也許召開一個研討會或什麼的。請將具體的安排跟時間給我，就跟黃國昌委員一樣，你馬上就說要安排會勘，我希望你可以馬上安排開會，我也來參加，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。現在請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163929","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163929","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff02fb599bae9a1808741e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07db0ed05b3693a1b515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"12:35:12 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不好意思連續假日"},{"start":28.581,"end":38.163,"text":"對於全國的一個交通路網來看當然對我們交通部來講是一個非常嚴峻的一個考驗那在整個過程裡面"},{"start":38.735,"end":63.542,"text":"我們剛剛部長也有講可能最近的這一個月內會有連續四個這個連續假期的這個高通型的一個過程那也是在考驗我們交通部那在這個中秋節剛過看到這個在結束的那一天收假的那一天全國"},{"start":65.424,"end":88.832,"text":"全國的國道可能只有這個國道五號只報只報了那對於這個情形我想請教部長就是因應我們這個廉價的問題那國道五號我們相關的這個管制措施的這個方式是怎樣報告委員針對這個廉價我們其實每次廉價都差不多是"},{"start":89.352,"end":107.178,"text":"管制的措施也都差不多那我希望能夠加強的就是說我們公共運輸看可不可以再做更多一點例如說國道客運的部分希望鼓勵大家能夠搭乘國道客運這是一方面二方面針對這個智慧移控的部分因為我覺得智慧移控可能要搭配大數據"},{"start":108.318,"end":132.475,"text":"那我們怎麼讓他搭起來之後更精準那當然塞車的部分坦白講以目前國道五號的狀態只要車一多其實就會有塞車的狀況那我們只能希望說在國道五號上面的塞車的時間能夠減少希望車型速度能夠加快所以智慧移控的部分我們會再更加強讓他更智慧那另外就是公共運輸的部分我們盡量來努力那再來就是說"},{"start":133.355,"end":148.05,"text":"我們其實只要每次的輸運我們整體的所有的國道的這個只要遇到不管是事故或者是災害的時候我們排除的這個人力跟機具其實我們都做足準備希望能夠降低那個"},{"start":150.535,"end":170.885,"text":"塞車的時間或者事故排除的時間這個部分我們都有在處理好那還是請我們交通部對於公共運輸量能的這個方面還有轉成的成效應該來想看看有什麼方式包括公共運輸我們是不是可以提供更多的這個誘因讓民眾願意去搭乘這個"},{"start":172.526,"end":202.406,"text":"比如說大眾的交通運輸工具讓他們減少車輛上國道5號的話應該這個問題就會比較能夠減緩一些是 我們在很多的路線其實都有八五折國道客運八五折中秋有六折這次中秋我們是打到六折我們希望鼓勵大眾盡量能夠搭乘公共運輸跟國道的客運的方面希望能夠鼓勵未來長期來看我們還是還會推出TPAS 2.0的Plus版"},{"start":203.086,"end":221.04,"text":"不過宜蘭很像還沒有到70公里有到70公里嗎東部的國道我們也納入了我們本來是70公里嘛例如說那個距離大概是台北到新竹啦但是我們把東部也納入也就是說未來只要願意搭乘這樣子的國道客運我們都會有15%到30%的這個回饋的金額鼓勵大家"},{"start":224.463,"end":239.153,"text":"好 那另外就是針對我們國道5號的部分我們擁塞的情形我想請教一下我們高工局或是部長這邊有沒有什麼替代的方案比較能夠這個即時性的來解決"},{"start":239.733,"end":262.069,"text":"有没有可能跟委员报告因为我们现在大概就是说从这个大数据跟AI上面其实都先预测像这种廉价期间在哪些路段跟时段像国五就是说哪些路段哪些的时段它国五会拥塞所以我们都提早就是说在我们的1968APP先预告"},{"start":263.75,"end":276.505,"text":"讓這個用路者他可以先安排他的相關的時間因為如果說同一時間擠到國五我想一定是塞所以我們是透過時間跟空間做一些分流分流對 那另外就是說從其實"},{"start":277.866,"end":305.228,"text":"假期的時候從時定跟平齡其實在這個連假的前兩天上午時段其實他都有做閘道的封閉讓這一個要到宜蘭的方向的車流量能夠更順暢那收假的時候其實包括這個閘道的一個移控跟高乘載其實都在處理那我們現在是多提醒就是包括就是這一個把時間空間錯開另外多使用這個國道客運小客車能夠減量"},{"start":306.169,"end":329.055,"text":"然後像部長說的事故的排除其實我們在隧道已經用AI直接辨識直接知道它發生的地點那事故班會把縮短那個事故處理的時間那這樣擁塞就可以降低好那針對這個台六二延伸宜蘭的部分遲遲未核定我想這個部分我們大概什麼時間可以有一個比較明確的一個答案"},{"start":329.215,"end":353.018,"text":"報告委員我們目前台六二的可行性研究已經送到行政院那國發會的報告書也送到行政院了已經報院了那我們在等院的核定那我們也會盡量來拜託行政院這邊能夠快速來核定好這個部分請部長跟我們局長這部分再繼續追蹤那另外要解決我們西南宜蘭的西南的一個這個交通瓶頸"},{"start":354.158,"end":376.044,"text":"我覺得最主要的原因可能我們現在目前在爭取中的這個東山交流道東山交流道那東山交流道如果建置完整之後可能對於這個西南的一個交通瓶頸可能會有一個這個舒緩的情形那另外就是國道5號銜接蘇花改的部分我現在也都在這個"},{"start":377.884,"end":406.496,"text":"按照期程在進行當中那我希望說未來我們是不是東山交流道的這個相關研議的工程可以跟國道5號銜接蘇花改的部分有一個這個併進的機會有沒有可能因為東山交流道的部分之前高工局已經有做審議了那目前在我們部裡面做審議我們盡量來加快不過另外國道5號銜接蘇花改的部分有沒有辦法併進來我們可能要再做研究吧"},{"start":407.197,"end":423.395,"text":"國五銜接蘇花改其實這個部分的話就是說建設計畫的經費行政院也核定了所以我們現在正在做設計那我想就是這個部分的話未來跟這個蘇花安的這個建設計畫的啟程會同步來做完成"},{"start":424.056,"end":438.405,"text":"好 我希望我們東山交流道的這個相關騎乘能夠加緊那加快速度看能不能接續跟這個國道銜接5號委員一直在關心這個議題我們交通部這邊審議的速度我們會來加快好 謝謝部長 謝謝局長謝謝委員好 謝謝陳靜雲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時35分）幸好我早一點來，謝謝主席。有請陳部長，還有高公局陳局長。"],["主席：請部長和陳文瑞局長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長、局長午安。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，不好意思，連續假日對於全國的交通路網來看，當然對交通部來講，是一個非常嚴峻的考驗。在整個過程裡面，剛剛部長也有講，最近的一個月內會有四個連續假期的高通行時段，也是在考驗交通部。中秋節剛過，看到連假結束、收假的那一天，全國的國道可能只有國道5號紫爆。對於這個情形，我想請教部長，因應連假的問題，國道5號相關的管制措施是怎樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對連假，其實每次連假都差不多，管制的措施也都差不多，我希望能夠加強的就是公共運輸可不可能再做更多一點。例如國道客運的部分，希望鼓勵大家能夠搭乘國道客運，這是一方面。二方面，針對智慧儀控，因為我覺得智慧儀控可能要搭配大數據，我們怎麼讓它搭起來之後更精準。那當然塞車的部分，坦白講，以目前國道5號的狀態，只要車一多，其實就會有塞車的狀況，我們只能希望在國道5號上的塞車時間能夠減少，希望車行速度能夠加快，所以我們會更加強智慧儀控，讓它更智慧。另外就是公共運輸的部分，我們盡量來努力。","再來就是，每次輸運，所有國道只要遇到不管是事故、災害的時候，我們排除的人力跟機具其實都做足準備，希望能夠降低塞車的時間或者事故排除的時間，這個部分我們都有在處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。還是請交通部對於公共運輸量能還有轉乘的成效，應該想看看有什麼方式，包括公共運輸，是不是可以提供更多的誘因，讓民眾願意搭乘大眾交通運輸工具，減少車輛上國道5號，應該這個問題就能比較減緩一些。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們在很多國道客運路線都有85折，中秋有6折，這次中秋打到6折，我們希望鼓勵大眾盡量能夠搭乘公共運輸跟國道客運，希望能夠鼓勵啦！未來長期來看，我們還會推出TPASS 2.0 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app先預告，讓用路者可以先安排他的時間。因為如果同一時間擠到國5，我想一定是塞，所以我們是透過時間跟空間做一些分流。","另外就是在假期的時候，連假前二天上午時段在石碇跟坪林其實都有作匝道封閉，讓要到宜蘭方向的車流量能夠更順暢。收假的時候，包括匝道儀控跟高乘載其實都在處理，我們現在是多提醒，包括把時間、空間錯開，另外多使用國道客運，小客車能夠減量。然後像部長說的事故排除，其實我們在隧道已經用AI直接辨識，直接知道事故發生的地點，事故班會縮短事故處理的時間，這樣壅塞情況就可以降低。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。針對台62線延伸宜蘭的部分，遲遲未核定，大概什麼時間可以有一個比較明確的答案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前台62線的可行性研究已經送到行政院，國發會的報告書也送到行政院，已經報院了。我們在等院的核定，也會盡量拜託行政院能夠快速核定。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。這個部分請部長跟局長繼續追蹤。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們來努力。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，要解決宜蘭溪南的交通瓶頸，我覺得最主要的原因可能是我們目前在爭取中的冬山交流道，冬山交流道如果建置完成之後，對於溪南的交通瓶頸可能會有紓緩的情形。","另外，就是國道5號銜接蘇花改的部分，現在也都按照期程進行當中，我希望未來冬山交流道相關工程是不是可以跟國道5號銜接蘇花改有並進的機會，有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為之前高公局已經有針對冬山交流道審議了，目前在部裡面審議，我們盡量來加快。不過，國道5號銜接蘇花改有沒有辦法併進來，我們可能要再做研究。"],["陳局長文瑞：國5銜接蘇花改這個部分，其實建設計畫的經費，行政院核定了，所以我們現在正在設計。我想這個部分未來跟蘇花安建設計畫的期程會同步完成。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我希望冬山交流道的相關期程能夠加緊、加快速度，看能不能接續跟國道5號銜接……"],["陳部長世凱：委員一直在關心這個議題，交通部這邊審議的速度會加快，跟委員報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長，謝謝局長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員發言完畢。","現在請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163928","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163928","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff03d11f2481ac3a4c241e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07d04c117b4160d12fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:26:14 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請交通部陳部長 公路局林局長請陳部長請公路局林福山局長"},{"start":22.715,"end":43.036,"text":"部長十月是連續假期比較多的月份那國人不管是出遊還是返鄉啊各地的交通壓力也隨之提高那連假期間的疏運那都會直接影響就是民眾的行車安全然後還有便利那除了國道還有主要幹線的疏導那本席也要請部長我們一起共同來關心偏遠還有山區路段的安全維護"},{"start":44.057,"end":68.262,"text":"那我們看到桃園復興區台七線它是主要的連外道路可是它長期都存在著攤房的風險那對我們地方而言呢道路順暢跟安全維護同樣重要因為像是台七線還有山區路端它一旦攤房了還是中斷了就會影響居民然後也會影響遊客那尤其台七線它沿線非常多的觀光景點"},{"start":69.082,"end":96.545,"text":"那在今年的8月21號台七線33公里處華龍路段它發生大規模的探訪那一瞬間它造成雙向的道路都沒有辦法通行那當時復興公務段也在第一時間進行搶通那廢時了 經過了77小時的搶修那也耗時了三天那我們看到8月24號它開放了通車那經過持續的觀察邊坡還是不穩定 還是有落石那對用路的安全威脅也不小"},{"start":97.205,"end":114.839,"text":"那今天要針對復興區的邊坡道路安全救教部長復興區他的交通相對不是那麼便利那他也是原鄉那他也多年來就是不時都會發生癱瘓那沒風好雨或是颱風居民最擔心的就是道路又被中斷了那"},{"start":115.62,"end":144.008,"text":"去年交通部5月份的時候也有像在委員會也有像也有報告也有提到公路邊坡的安全管理採多項的措施那像是運用遙測的技術還有邊坡分級的管理嘛全國列管1708處並劃設45處的優先關注邊坡那每年汛期之前呢也會針對高風險的邊坡進行一次無人機的巡檢那也設置了16處的落實警訊的警告信頭"},{"start":144.628,"end":155.065,"text":"那完成978處的C級以上邊波總體檢測這些措施看起來相當的完整那想要請問部長還有局長那為什麼復興區的邊波問題還是頻繁的發生"},{"start":158.942,"end":184.029,"text":"跟委員報告一下確實就是說因為省道的部分有很多是山區的一個這個道路啦那山區道路的一個這一個部分的話裡面包括這一個這個復興山區這邊的話都是在這個優先關注的一個邊坡這是因為山區的道路所以需要公路局特別的關注那針對這個台七線33K處有沒有把它列入優先的關注邊坡呢"},{"start":184.695,"end":190.472,"text":"有有有在32.5K那局長您本身有沒有掌握這一次的災害"},{"start":192.348,"end":220.039,"text":"跟委員報告這個比較抱歉因為這次的部分的話我是比較優先放在這一個南部那個地方這個台七一這個地方我會找個時間去看一下因為光是這一段他就花了七十七個小時來做搶頭難道不嚴重嗎 局長這個非常嚴重只要有阻斷的部分對公務局來講都是這一個非常嚴重的事情所以他本身要給予就是公路局復興公務段的第一線同仁高度的肯定可是局長你顯然就是沒有掌握狀況"},{"start":222.14,"end":248.009,"text":"跟這個這個委員報告一下啦我們組長這個也第一時間也有到啦那相關的一個部分的話因為只要這個相關就是颱風來或者是比較豪大雨的這個部分的話那這個我們省道山區道路這個相關受損害的這個可能會比較廣一點啦所以本席也有留意到工作局有推動這個省道邊坡的地貓功能檢測分級還有他的設施補強計畫"},{"start":249.389,"end":258.778,"text":"那他的目的是在於強化系統韌性那目前從地方的現況來看局長您知道地方目前都是採取什麼樣的方式來做處理嗎這個比較細的技術部分我可不可以請我們組長來說明一下請組長說明"},{"start":267.606,"end":286.327,"text":"跟委員報告目前台西縣的優先關注邊坡有兩處一個是32.5K的一個龍華路段另外一個是在49K大曼路段這個部分都是我們有在做關注每季都有去做監測地毛的部分我們每四年都會做評估檢測如果對於地毛的功能有喪失的部分我們會立刻做補強"},{"start":287.088,"end":314.358,"text":"那今年度在台七縣的這個地貓檢測的部分這本期看到你們的改善提出的改善方式是停留在噴漿還有臨時護欄短期的處理方式你認為這樣子可以真的來改善問題的根源嗎我跟委員報告那個33K龍華這個邊坡它落實的部分第一時間我們到前面到現場成立前進指揮說我就在現場當前進指揮官那對於那個邊坡的部分它是屬於岩石裂解它的岩石強度非常"},{"start":315.238,"end":337.764,"text":"非常非常強所以打那個大使打了三天那這個在未來的修復我們現在是採所謂的用這個鹽酸去做加固那我們也找了專家會議針對他的鹽質裂解的解理我們去做這個分析跟地質專探然後我們會去做鹽盤的加固所以目前只是做初步的一個搶修維持通行"},{"start":338.084,"end":359.786,"text":"部長 那本席建議交通部應該比照中橫的做法 目前中橫的做法呢 它在像是在台七線它高風險的這樣子的路段嘛 它有建立一個完整的地質監測系統那它也有裝設即時崩塌的測儀器 那包括結合氣象資料 然後還有做到預警式的管理那您是否願意來支持台七線也比照中橫的做法"},{"start":360.286,"end":378.801,"text":"報告委員台積線我們應該也有這方面的設置只是說委員在提醒的這個路段或許他的強固性還不夠我們優先先做搶災跟搶通那接下來我們當然先讓他通行長時間的防災跟強固的部分我們也會持續來做這個部分我們一定會把它做好"},{"start":379.221,"end":394.544,"text":"是 先要提醒部長 目前的經費大多數他是屬於零休的享休零四零三地震之後呢台八台九線都有改善的預算可是唯獨台七線他沒有長期的規沒有長期的改善計畫那這一部分交通部要如何來協助呢"},{"start":396.588,"end":418.903,"text":"跟委員報告一下台西的這個部分的話我們會請這個北分局再來做這個檢討那因為原則上在北分局的這個區域裡面的話就是這一段基本上也是屬於高風險的一個這一個是局長本身希望不只來做檢討希望可以把復興區也納入全國編播房在改善計畫的優先區局長能做到嗎"},{"start":419.563,"end":445.822,"text":"可以可以可以 OK那關於編列預算還有規劃的長還有長期的他的這個規劃那也請公路局研議他編播的整治是否可以在該路段設置一個明隧道然後還有還有除了明隧道之外還有其他長期的效益來改善我們該地區的防護措施就為了確保民眾然後還有我們的遊客在走台七線北橫公路的話可以更安全"},{"start":446.582,"end":466.196,"text":"跟委員報告目前是採用長髮距這個橋的部分來避災啦那剛剛委員所提的部分的話對於剛剛這個剛剛部長有提到就是說這些相關災損路段的部分的話基本上都必須要有短縱長期的這個部分那委員所提的這個建議的部分我們把他納入這個有關這個民隧道大概需要多長的時間"},{"start":467.537,"end":484.691,"text":"我們現在是做長垮距的這個橋來做避災啦有幾種方式長垮距的橋是一種方式民隧道是一種方式那我請工程單位去研析就是說什麼樣的方式最適合當地的狀況我們來盡量做避災的動作是需要多長時間公路局我們三個月再先跟委員報告一下"},{"start":489.727,"end":502.76,"text":"OK 那也請部長全力協助 因為這條也是我們復興區民眾的命脈 因為不管是他們每天上上下課或是上班下班或是就醫都是走這條路 那請部長全力協助沒問題 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":878,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時26分）謝謝主席。請交通部陳部長、公路局林局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、公路局林福山局長。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長，10月是連續假期比較多的月份。國人不管是出遊還是返鄉，各地的交通壓力也隨之提高。連假期間的輸運都會直接影響民眾的行車安全還有便利。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：除了國道還有主要幹線的疏導，本席也要請部長，我們一起共同來關心偏遠還有山區路段的安全維護。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：我們看到桃園市復興區台7線是主要的聯外道路，可是它長期都存在坍方的風險。對地方而言，道路順暢跟安全維護同樣重要，像台7線或山區路段一旦坍方或中斷了，就會影響居民，也會影響遊客。尤其台7線沿線有非常多的觀光景點。在今年8月21日台7線33公里處榮華路段發生大規模的坍方，一瞬間造成雙向道路都沒有辦法通行。當時復興工務段在第一時間進行搶通，經過77小時的搶修，耗時3天，8月24日開放通車。經過持續觀察，邊坡還是不穩定，還是有落石，對用路人的安全威脅也不小。今天要針對復興區的邊坡道路安全就教部長。","復興區的交通相對不是那麼便利，也是原鄉，多年來不時都會發生坍方，每逢豪雨或是颱風，居民最擔心的就是道路又被中斷了。去年5月份的時候交通部也有向委員會報告，提到公路邊坡的安全管理採多項的措施，像是運用遙測技術，還有邊坡分級管理，全國列管1708處，並劃設45處優先關注邊坡；每年汛期之前，也會針對高風險的邊坡進行一次無人機的巡檢；也設置了16處落石警訊的警告系統，完成978處C級以上邊坡總體檢測。這些數字看起來相當的完整，想要請問部長還有局長，為什麼復興區的邊坡問題還是頻繁地發生呢？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，確實就是因為省道有很多是山區的道路，山區道路包括復興山區這邊，都是優先關注邊坡的路段。"],["邱委員若華：這是因為山區道路所以需要公路局特別的關注，針對台7線33K處，有沒有把它列入優先關注邊坡？"],["林局長福山：有、有、有，32.5K就開始列入。"],["邱委員若華：局長您本身有沒有掌握這一次的災害？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，比較抱歉，因為這次我是比較優先放在南部地方，台7線這個地方我會找個時間去看一下。"],["邱委員若華：因為光是這段就花了77個小時來搶通，難道不嚴重嗎，局長？"],["林局長福山：這個非常嚴重，只要有阻斷的部分，對公路局來講，都是非常嚴重的事情。"],["邱委員若華：其實本席要給予公路局復興工務段第一線同仁高度的肯定，可是局長您顯然就是沒有掌握狀況嘛。"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，我們組長第一時間也有到啦！因為只要颱風來或者是有豪大雨，省道山區道路受損害的情況可能會比較廣一點。"],["邱委員若華：本席也有留意到，公路局有推動省道邊坡地錨功能檢測分級暨設施補強計畫，目的是在於強化系統韌性，目前從地方的現況來看，局長您知道目前地方都是採取什麼樣的方式來做處理嗎？"],["林局長福山：這是比較新的技術，可不可以請我們組長來說明一下？"],["邱委員若華：請組長說明。"],["陳組長俊堯：跟委員報告，目前台7線的優先關注邊坡有2處，一個是32.5K的榮華路段，另外一個是在49K大曼路段，這二處我們都有在關注，每季都有去監測。","地錨的部分，我們每4年都會做評估檢測，如果地錨功能有喪失的部分，會立刻作補強。今年在台7線的地錨檢測的部分……"],["邱委員若華：本席看到你們提出的改善方式，是停留在噴槍還有臨時護欄的短期處理方式，您認為這樣可以真的來改善問題的根源嗎？"],["陳組長俊堯：跟委員報告，33K榮華路段邊坡落石後，第一時間到現場成立前進指揮所，我就在現場當前進指揮官。對於邊坡的部分，它是屬於岩石裂解，當地的岩石強度非常強，打那個大石頭打了3天。至於未來的修復，我們現在是採用鹽酸去作加固，我們也找了專家會議，針對岩石裂解的節理去作分析跟地質鑽探，然後會做岩盤的加固，所以目前只是做初步的搶修通行。"],["邱委員若華：好的。部長，本席建議，交通部應該比照中橫的做法，目前中橫的做法呢，像在台7線這樣高風險的路段，有建立一個完整的地質監測系統，也有裝設即時崩塌的測儀器，那包括結合氣象資料，還有做到預警式的管理。您是否願意來支持台7線也比照中橫的做法？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們在台7線應該也有這方面的設置啦，只是委員提醒的這個路段，或許強固性還不夠，我們優先做搶災和搶通，當然先讓它通行，接下來長時間防災跟強固的部分，我們也會持續來做，這個部分我們一定會把它做好。"],["邱委員若華：本席要提醒部長，目前的經費大多數是屬於臨時的搶修，0403地震之後，台8、台9線都有改善的預算，可是唯獨台7線沒有長期規劃，沒有長期的改善計畫，這一部分交通部要如何來協助呢？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，台7的部分，我們會請北分局再來檢討，原則上在北分局的區域裡面，這一段基本上也是屬於高風險路段。"],["邱委員若華：局長，本席希望不只做檢討，希望可以把復興區也納入全國邊坡防災改善計畫的優先區，局長能做到嗎？"],["林局長福山：可以、可以、可以。"],["邱委員若華：OK。關於編列預算還有長期的規劃，也請公路局研議邊坡整治計畫，是否可以在該路段設置一個明隧道，除了明隧道之外，還有其他長期的效益，來改善該地區的防護措施，為了確保民眾和遊客在走台7線北橫公路時可以更安全。"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，目前是採用長跨距的橋梁來避災。剛剛委員所提的部分，部長也有提到，這些相關災損路段，基本上都必須要有短中長期的規劃，委員所提的建議，我們納入考量。"],["邱委員若華：有關這個明隧道，大概需要多長的時間？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在是做長跨距的橋來避災。避災有幾種方式，長跨距的橋是一種方式，明隧道是一種方式，我請工程單位研析什麼方式是最適合當地的狀況，我們盡量來做避災的動作。"],["邱委員若華：需要多長時間，公路局？"],["林局長福山：我們三個月內再跟委員報告。"],["邱委員若華：OK，那也請部長全力協助。因為這條也是復興區民眾的命脈，他們不管是每天上下課或是上班、下班，或是就醫，都是走這一條路，請部長全力協助。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員發言完畢。現在要請陳俊宇委員發言。","在陳俊宇委員發言之前，來做個補充說明，剛才在宣告的時候，李柏毅委員剛到門口，也在這邊向所有工作人員、議事人員、記者朋友抱歉，李柏毅要承擔所有的罵名。李柏毅委員發言完畢之後，我們再休息。","現在請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163927","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163927","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0b8d43d3c554a9c3841e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07d04c117b4160d12fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:16:32 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有請部長還有台鐵董事長 鄭董事長部長 請鄭董事長兩位好 第一個問題比較簡單幫一些用路人 車友請命因為我剛開始關心台灣很多地方自行車 車道的問題其中有一個是 台灣"},{"start":33.16,"end":50.567,"text":"自行車的勝地叫武嶺你要東進武嶺西進武嶺北進武嶺都會經過一個重要的地方叫做合歡山隧道來部長看一下照片合歡山隧道基本上裡面全部都是黑的沒有任何照明的設備那"},{"start":53.635,"end":72.066,"text":"有很多車友他其中應該是一個代表性的人物非常有名的YouTuber叫做邱敏傑他在YouTube上面針對台灣的各個路況其實我有時候覺得聽官員講話不如看這些用路人實際使用經驗可能比較符合現實"},{"start":74.955,"end":97.266,"text":"那這樣子的民情我們接到反應了以後那我當然要詢問因為他們覺得說這個和歡山隧道我一直搞不懂又長又黑裡面完全沒有照明設備這樣安全嗎那因此接到這樣子的澄清以後我就發函給你們谷關公務段你們谷關公務段第一個好像是說這個沒有安全的問題"},{"start":98.539,"end":116.295,"text":"第二個這個技術上有困難所以是到底是技術上有困難還是你們確認這沒有安全性的問題因為我現在有點聽不懂用路人覺得很危險但是我們的公務員回答給我的是沒有安全性的考慮那所以現在實際的狀況到底是什麼"},{"start":117.409,"end":139.38,"text":"我的意思是說從用路人的角度如果已經一而再再而三的公開的提出這樣子的呼籲那在科技這麼進步的現在竟然沒有辦法做處理那萬一我當然不希望有這個萬一以後當然不小心萬一不幸出現了這樣子的事故到底是誰要負責任部長"},{"start":141.852,"end":164.79,"text":"委員 您所說的這個隧道我請公路局馬上去做現場的會刊非常好我要就是這個答案如果真的有需要我們一定要裝置非常好 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速度蠻快的它可以在夏天可以跳島旅遊澎湖金門馬祖救災的時候可以用冬天的時候當然因為金門跟澎湖有四溪的機場"},{"start":124.605,"end":139.601,"text":"大家還是比較偏重在空運所以冬天的時候可以讓我們馬祖因為我們馬祖真的四個鄉五個島東引那邊確實很不方便可以做一個調度部長你的看法能不能初步報告一下這個狀況"},{"start":141.911,"end":163.412,"text":"已經到哪個環節了現在報告委員我們目前已經轉到行政院行政院核定之後我們就會來執行不過我們在執行這個計畫之前我們其實這幾年我們會先努力把這個運量跟運能跟大家搭乘藍色公路的這個習慣先養起來所以我們今年其實已經開始試辦了"},{"start":164.953,"end":193.698,"text":"先跟民間來借船或者是租船那我們透過三個不一樣的航路跟航線先用觀光的角度讓大家適應這樣子的藍色公路我們希望說船一來之後大家就可以搭這個船在夏天的時候旅遊那或者是請問院長支持這件事情嗎我想院長是支持的院長是支持的好還有很關心的是這一艘船到底在國內打造還是在日本打造"},{"start":194.498,"end":212.748,"text":"因為我們規劃是這個Lolo史上史下大型的客戶貨船那這個在日本的造船技術上是可以說全球是相當優秀的因為他們有內附內海"},{"start":214.989,"end":241.521,"text":"那我目前的規劃還是比較傾向由日本的船廠來打造這個非常重要喔因為我們有個政策是國艦國造我們國艦國造我們的台馬輪 台馬之星把馬輪害死了他把那個牛的心臟裝在豬裡面那個散熱系統根本都不對嘛到現在你看一千多萬 一千多萬 一千多萬一直維修"},{"start":242.574,"end":258.639,"text":"老闆已經罵死了我想這個方向是對的好不好往日本日本船他們技術非常的好我也親自也跑到日本去看過了那第二個問題就是燕翔你請回沒事"},{"start":260.615,"end":279.652,"text":"前幾天我們華信陳董事長到馬祖去派會陳董事長跟我私交非常好我們在國民大會同事過目前高雄飛馬祖的航線阿兵哥有一半以上的阿兵哥都在那邊那麼"},{"start":282.998,"end":303.403,"text":"那麼現在成本在計算來華信也有錢賺也有錢賺那麼華信也添了新的飛機進來了我想謝謝我們董事長也非常支持這件事情但是陳董事長回答說還要過一陣子一陣子我不曉得多久飛機還沒來因為禮拜"},{"start":306.96,"end":332.853,"text":"六飛過去嘛那禮拜五飛過去可以把客人玩了兩天禮拜一把他帶回來嘛 帶回高雄這件事情我想我們召委李昆哲委員許智傑委員都非常的支持這個案子而且也盯得滿緊的齁當然我們華航董事長不在話下啦齁非常努力那這個陳董事長到馬祖區也承諾齁你回答我一下好不好"},{"start":335.115,"end":351.333,"text":"是不是請董事長回答好不好跟委員報告一下那個因為ATR它現在那個產的那個飛機啊原本到今年年底要交我三架到現在都還沒來一架都還沒來您的意思是說飛機一到就可以來了就可以飛了嗎"},{"start":352.534,"end":375.863,"text":"這三架是要取代舊的老飛機那你還有多一架 你退出一架嘛 對不對對 他來一架我就退一架但是我為了這個 我又多買了第十三架這第十三架 我們原本的計畫就是要用在新開的航線那高董你也支持這件事情嗎當然 當然民航局 河區長OK嗎好 那請回 這個問題就很簡單了"},{"start":379.261,"end":404.474,"text":"另外就是馬祖燈會行之有年但是明年的預算我看不到有燈會的錢台灣都在每個縣市辦大燈會我們馬祖辦個小燈會以前都有支持我們幾百萬請問部長你要不要支持我們繼續努力沒有預算喔這個我需要再了解一下因為我不曉得馬祖燈會的預算"},{"start":410.509,"end":412.051,"text":"村長你回答我一下這個問題好不好因為明年度的那個補助經費我可以請我們旅遊推廣組的組長因為細節在他這裡沒關係沒關係"},{"start":427.778,"end":445.589,"text":"謝謝啦因為每年都有行之有年去年今年的春節給了我們450萬錢也不多我們四個鄉五個島平均大概一個島分不到一百萬南竿當然比較大一點可能要兩百萬只給了450萬這個經費你們能夠承諾我嗎"},{"start":449.171,"end":478.226,"text":"跟委員報告計劃的部分好像最近有送到我們這邊來了那我們再來 但你們給他打回去啦你都沒有預算啦應該是沒有打回去因為我們 如果沒有的話那全國各地的單位通通不要辦好了我們也來 明年預算通通把它砍掉就算啦報告委員不會有這種狀況 莊委你覺得有沒有道理給我們一點錢如果不給的話那其他你們各縣市連高雄市也不要辦"},{"start":479.963,"end":501.18,"text":"報告委員在預算可以允許的範圍內一定會繼續協助啦這個燈會是很重要的我們盡量來協助好不好不要盡量啦你一定要協助錢多錢少是不是去年 今年給了450萬你今年起碼給350萬 400萬我也不會講話一毛錢都不給一毛錢都不給的話那我這個大手拿起來一揮"},{"start":506.864,"end":533.78,"text":"馬祖其實他的觀光對整個國家來講是相當重要所以這個部分我們會盡量來協助不要盡量 一定你盡量的話我也盡量來省預算了這樣就不好玩了我對你們觀光部那麼好對你們交通部那麼好陳署長可以嗎你們都答應我了喔到時候不要沒有喔 好不好另外陳署長等一下"},{"start":536.208,"end":557.785,"text":"現在補助各地的風景管理處經費很像都是兩億以上兩億以上 金門你們補助多少 不知道喔知道嗎金門不在 金門是國家公園金門國家公園 澎湖呢澎湖是風景管理處都是兩三億耶我們是114年度1.67億115年1.69億"},{"start":561.687,"end":586.803,"text":"我當縣長 我當縣長的時候補助的很多還不只這個 都是兩億 兩三億 三億多那自從陳部長上任以來越來越少 你好意思嗎只能增加 不能減少 好不好陳部長是 我回去再進一步的了解一下我沒刪過你的預算我沒有刪過你的預算"},{"start":590.571,"end":619.306,"text":"包委員預算充足的狀況底下能協助我們一定會做好稍微站起來了最後一個問題大邱旅客中心第一期經費總總是1.27億還有第二期的4230萬還沒撥款當然年底我們就完成了這個錢聽說你們明年也沒有預算部長房子蓋了一半這是交通部觀光署主辦的"},{"start":620.509,"end":624.121,"text":"主辦的工程那你們主辦的工程你幹了一半"},{"start":625.123,"end":653.792,"text":"如果說部長你有答應過我有啦 這個會做但是他的進度還沒到所以我們照規定還沒辦法撥款進度啦進度還沒到他的工程的進度還沒到到了會給錢嗎到了一定會給你不給錢我就擺在那裡擺爛是是是 到了一定會給還有內裝金費要兩千三百萬也要給撥款的部分沒有問題如果他的工程進度到了一個空的房子在那裡有什麼意思啊是我們符合規定該給的時候一定都會給你不要一直按嘛 小姐"},{"start":655.504,"end":675.253,"text":"我才超過30秒跟委員報告就是工程完成之後呢我想說我們可以再辦一次那個考察然後再看後面細節的部分處理部長有答應我要給錢嗎要看工程進度工程進度到了該給的位置但你明天沒預算啊進度到你沒錢啊"},{"start":677.421,"end":691.739,"text":"我們在想辦法 我知道你只剩下補助款兩億我們當然明年的預算會比較吃緊這個是事實 我們盡量來來挪 盡量來想辦法這個不給周圍壓力 好不好這個拜託部長 還拜託署長 好不好謝謝了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時4分）謝謝主席，是不是請部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，救災辛苦了！首先問你一個大問題，今年度要審明年度的預算，你們的預算會不會給綠不給藍？"],["陳部長世凱：不會。"],["陳委員雪生：不要光用嘴巴講喔！"],["陳部長世凱：馬祖的預算也都有啊！"],["陳委員雪生：不是馬祖的預算，我講的是全部、全部？"],["陳部長世凱：我們都一視同仁。"],["陳委員雪生：召委，你做見證，不要給綠不給藍。"],["陳部長世凱：不會有這個問題。"],["陳委員雪生：如果是這樣的話，審預算就會很麻煩了。"],["陳部長世凱：不會有這個問題。"],["陳委員雪生：聽說航港局正在打造一艘新船，希望能做藍色公路，包括跳島等等？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：那基於風災，花蓮的風災，之前我們調度了馬祖的新臺馬輪到那邊去嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員雪生：我們很多民眾，有的也有聲音啦！不是沒有聲音，為什麼？因為你對我們的交通，妨害到我們的交通秩序了，但是民眾也都能夠瞭解，這是大事嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：葉局長對我們也沒話講，所以他調動的話，我們縣長馬上就答應了，就調度了。可能基於這樣的考量，在風災的時候或是戰時的時候，將來你們打造這一艘船，聽說八千噸以上大概造價要將近27億，而且這個速度21節，速度滿快的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：它在夏天可以跳島旅遊，到澎湖、金門、馬祖。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：那救災的時候可以用嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：冬天的時候，當然因為金門跟澎湖有4C的機場，大家還是比較偏重在空運。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["陳委員雪生：所以冬天的時候，因為我們馬祖有4個鄉5個島，東引那邊確實很不方便，可以讓我們馬祖做一個調度，部長，你的看法如何？能不能初步報告一下現在的狀況已經到哪個環節了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前已經轉到行政院，等行政院核定之後，我們就會來執行。不過我們在執行這個計畫之前，其實這幾年我們會先努力把運量、運能以及大家搭乘藍色公路的習慣先養起來，所以我們今年已經開始試辦了，先跟民間來借船或者是租船，我們透過3個不一樣的航路與航線，先用觀光的角度讓大家適應這樣子的藍色公路。"],["陳委員雪生：很好。"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望船一來之後，大家就可以搭這個船在夏天的時候旅遊，或者是到冬天的時候……"],["陳委員雪生：請問院長支持這件事情嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我想院長是支持的。"],["陳委員雪生：院長是支持的？"],["陳部長世凱：院長是支持的。"],["陳委員雪生：院長是支持的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：好，還有很關心的是，這一艘船到底是在國內打造，還是在日本打造？"],["陳部長世凱：我是不是請局長？"],["陳委員雪生：好，局長。"],["葉局長協隆：跟委員報告，因為我們規劃的是RORO駛上駛下大型的客貨船，這個在日本的造船技術上可以說是全球相當優秀的，因為他們有瀨戶內海，那我們目前的規劃還是比較傾向由日本的船廠來打造。"],["陳委員雪生：這個非常重要喔！"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["陳委員雪生：因為我們有一個政策是國艦國造，我們國艦國造，我們的臺馬輪──臺馬之星，哇！把馬祖害死了，它把牛的心臟裝在豬里面，那個散熱系統根本都不對嘛！到現在你看，一千多萬、一千多萬、一千多萬一直維修，老百姓都罵死啦！我想這個方向是對的，往日本，日本的造船技術，都有船啦！他們技術非常地好，我也親自跑到日本去看過了。葉局長你請回，沒事了。","第二個問題，前幾天華信陳董事長到馬祖去拜會，陳董事長跟我私交非常好，我們在國民大會同事過。目前高雄飛馬祖的航線，有一半以上的阿兵哥都在那邊，那麼現在成本再計算起來，華信也有錢賺，而且華信也添了新的飛機進來了嘛！我想謝謝董事長也非常支持這件事情，但是陳董事長回答說還要過一陣子，一陣子我不曉得是多久，既然……"],["陳部長世凱：飛機還沒來。"],["陳委員雪生：因為禮拜五飛過去，客人玩了兩天，可以在禮拜一把他帶回來高雄，我想我們召委李昆澤委員、許智傑委員都非常地支持這個案子，而且也盯得滿緊的，當然華航董事長不在話下，非常地努力，那陳董事長到馬祖去也承諾，你回答我一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是不是請董事長回答？"],["陳委員雪生：也可以。"],["高董事長星潢：跟委員報告一下，因為ATR它現在產的飛機，原本到今年年底要交貨3架，到現在都還沒來，1架都還沒來。"],["陳委員雪生：您的意思是說，飛機一到就可以飛了？"],["高董事長星潢：這3架是要取代舊的老飛機，我另外因為這個……"],["陳委員雪生：那你還有多1架，你退出1架嘛！對不對？"],["高董事長星潢：對，它來1架我就退1架，但是我為了這個，我又多買了第13架。"],["陳委員雪生：好。"],["高董事長星潢：這第13架我們原本的計畫就是要用在新開的航線。"],["陳委員雪生：高董你也支持這件事情嘛？"],["高董事長星潢：當然、當然。"],["陳委員雪生：民航局何局長，OK嗎？好，那請回，這個問題就很簡單了。"],["高董事長星潢：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：另外就是馬祖燈會行之有年，但是明年的預算我看不到有燈會的錢耶！臺灣在每個縣市都辦大燈會，我們馬祖辦個小燈會，以前都有支持我們幾百萬，請問部長，你要不要支持我們繼續努力？沒有預算喔！你沒有編預算，觀光署的。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我需要再瞭解一下，因為我不曉得馬祖燈會的預算。"],["陳委員雪生：瞭解嗎？觀光署陳署長有來嘛？陳署長，你回答一下這個問題，好不好？"],["陳署長玉秀：是，明年度的補助經費我請我們旅遊推廣組的組長來說明，因為細節在他這裡。"],["陳委員雪生：沒關係、沒關係，來。謝謝啦！因為每年都有啊！行之有年，今年的春節給了我們450萬。錢也不多，我們是4個鄉5個島，平均大概1個島分不到100萬，南竿當然比較大一點，可能要200萬，只給了450萬，這個經費你們能夠承諾我嗎？"],["陳組長榮欽：跟委員報告，計畫的部分好像最近有送到我們這邊來了，我們再來審查。"],["陳委員雪生：你們給人家打回去啦！"],["陳組長榮欽：它是透……"],["陳委員雪生：你都沒有預算啊！"],["陳組長榮欽：應該是沒有打回去，因為我們還在審查。"],["陳委員雪生：如果沒有預算的話，那全國各地的燈會統統不要辦好了，我們也來……"],["陳組長榮欽：不會，委員，不會有這種狀況。"],["陳委員雪生：明年的預算統統把它砍掉就算啦！"],["陳組長榮欽：報告委員，不會有這種狀況。"],["陳委員雪生：召委，你覺得有沒有道理？給我們一點錢，如果不給的話，你們其他各縣市連高雄市也不要辦了。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在預算可以允許的範圍內，我們一定會繼續協助。"],["陳委員雪生：偏鄉離島你們要重視啦！"],["陳部長世凱：這個燈會是很重要的，我們儘量來協助，好不好？"],["陳委員雪生：不要儘量啦！你一定要協助，錢多錢少，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是、是、是，我們一定來協助。"],["陳委員雪生：今年給了450萬，你明年起碼給350萬、400萬，我也不會講話，你一毛錢都不給！"],["陳部長世凱：我們來瞭解預算的狀況。"],["陳委員雪生：一毛錢都不給的話，那我這個大手拿起來一揮，大家不要玩了。"],["陳部長世凱：其實馬祖的觀光對整個國家來講是相當重要，所以這個部分我們會儘量來協助，這個OK的。"],["陳委員雪生：不要儘量，一定。"],["陳部長世凱：好，一定會協助。"],["陳委員雪生：不是儘量，你儘量的話，那我也儘量來審預算，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：好，瞭解、瞭解。"],["陳委員雪生：這樣就不好玩了，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：我對你們交通部那麼好，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：陳署長，可以嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：可以。"],["陳委員雪生：你們都答應我了，到時候不要沒有喔！好，你們請回，陳署長等一下。","另外，現在補助各地的風景管理處，經費好像都是2億以上，金門你們補助多少不知道喔！知道嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：金門是國家公園。"],["陳委員雪生：金門是國家公園，澎湖嘞？"],["陳署長玉秀：澎湖是風景管理處。"],["陳委員雪生：都是2、3億耶！我們是114年度1.67億，115年1.69億，我當縣長的時候補助了很多，還不只這個，都是2、3億，三億多，自從陳部長上任以來越來越少，你好意思嗎？只能增加不能減少，好不好？陳署長。"],["陳署長玉秀：是，我回去再進一步瞭解一下是哪個項目。"],["陳部長世凱：我們這個預算再盤點一下，再盤點一下我們的預算。"],["陳委員雪生：我沒刪過你的預算耶！我沒有刪過你的預算耶！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，預算充足的狀況底下，能協助我們一定會做。"],["陳委員雪生：好，召委站起來了。最後一個問題，大坵旅客中心第1期經費總total是1.27億，還有第2期的4,230萬還沒撥款，當然年底我們就完成了，這個錢聽說你們明年也沒有預算，部長，房子蓋了一半，這是交通部觀光署主辦的工程，你們主辦的工程你蓋了一半，如果說……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，你有答應過我。"],["陳部長世凱：有啦！這個會做，但是它的進度還沒到，所以我們照規定還沒有辦法撥款。"],["陳委員雪生：不是儘速啊！"],["陳部長世凱：進度啦！進度。"],["陳委員雪生：進度還沒到。"],["陳部長世凱：進度還沒到，它的工程進度還沒到。"],["陳委員雪生：到的話會給錢吧？"],["陳部長世凱：到了一定會給。"],["陳委員雪生：你不給錢，我就擺在那裡擺爛。"],["陳部長世凱：是、是、是，到了一定會給，這個沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：還有內裝經費2,300萬也要給啊！"],["陳部長世凱：撥款的部分沒有問題，如果它的工程進度到了……"],["陳委員雪生：不然一個空的房子在那裡有什麼意思？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們符合規定，該給的時候一定都會給。"],["陳委員雪生：你不要一直按鈴嘛！小姐，我才超過30秒。"],["陳署長玉秀：跟委員報告，在工程完成之後，我想我們可以再辦一次考察，然後再看後面細節的部分怎麼處理。"],["陳委員雪生：不，署長，部長有答應我要給錢喔！"],["陳署長玉秀：是。"],["陳部長世凱：會啦！這個本來就……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，要給吧？"],["陳部長世凱：要看工程進度。"],["陳委員雪生：對，看進度。"],["陳部長世凱：工程進度到了，該給的會給。"],["陳委員雪生：但是你明年沒預算啊！你進度到你沒錢啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們再想辦法，內裝的部分目前是沒有編。"],["陳委員雪生：我知道你只剩下補助款2億啊！"],["陳部長世凱：當然明年的預算會比較吃緊，這個是事實，我們儘量來挪、儘量來想辦法。"],["陳委員雪生：好吧！不給召委壓力，這個就拜託部長，還有拜託署長，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳雪生委員。向陳雪生委員及各位列席的委員做個報告跟說明，委員發言完畢之後，我們都會給各位再1分鐘的時間，經過1分鐘之後會響3個鈴，如果各位委員還沒有辦法收尾，我們會再給各位30秒，也是會再按3次鈴，這個跟各位說明。我們交通委員會對委員的發言都充分地給予尊重，所以本會委員是6加2，列席的委員也都有5分鐘，而且5分鐘會再加1分鐘的補充。","謝謝，我們對每一個委員都同樣地尊重，各黨派都一樣。","現在請黃國昌主席發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163925","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163925","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ab89f6e0c5d9980c2b1f00580874b15566f4e64ae755f07d56f6ed70b2e814a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"12:36:54 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請求行政院同意我們這樣的預算統整的內容我請警政署長跟你做一個很簡單的說明好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":148.997,"end":169.107,"text":"報告委員對於這個防恐這個部分我們對於這個維安特警的這些的一個裝備跟設備我們都已經做有做統整好了所以這個預算是根據統整的這個相關的設備跟數量這些相關的這個預估都已經做統整那至於就是比較大部分的就是用在關鍵基礎設施的這一個"},{"start":171.348,"end":200.187,"text":"这个相关的设备这个部分大概金额是比较多一点的那这个可以涵挂大概八十几处的全国的关键基础设施是要建置无人机的一个侦测跟反制的一个系统这是一个固定型的一个设备这个也是经过我们中央科学研究院的这个整个相关设备的估的相关的这些的设备的价钱也都有做统整的"},{"start":201.308,"end":223.027,"text":"請教署長一下,有關於這些不管保一總隊增加了12億的採購防衛裝備跟直通環境等等,以及關鍵基礎設施有21億採購無人機通訊設備跟防衛裝備等等這些東西,那我在講,因為其實台灣我們在去年在審預算的時候,其實有全社會防衛任性等等相關的預算,"},{"start":224.068,"end":234.459,"text":"那這些預算跟你現在追加的這些特別預算你們怎麼去做一個大概整體的一個分配跟委員報告一下就是比如講像21億的這個關鍵基礎設施這個的一個設備是屬於目的事業主管機關這個對於駐地"},{"start":242.606,"end":255.852,"text":"這個駐地的一個整體的一個安全防護是一個基礎性的工作而且是在世界各國都有這樣的一個建制那我想就是在這個國土韌性在關鍵基礎設施的這個區塊來做這樣一個"},{"start":259.113,"end":282.984,"text":"架構式的一個建制這個對未來是灰色地帶或者是臨時的一個狀況是有這完整的一個整備那這個部分我有特別到那個南港的這個國防展去看世界各國包括現在的俄烏戰爭或者是以色列這一些的一個設備人家早就已經建好了所以我們要在維繫我們游水電訊的這些關鍵是"},{"start":286.67,"end":310.675,"text":"目前我們最難防的就是無人機的這個入侵所以我們利用這個國土安全認證這個機會把這個完整的設施在這個關鍵時把它設置好這個應該是對我們的這個未來的這個穩定這一方面的一個安全維護是有非常重大的一個一個一個一個措施做跟委員報告那我想就是"},{"start":312.495,"end":323.175,"text":"各位希望委員能夠支持這樣的一個長治久安的一個工作而且是跟世界上的一個目前的這個接軌我想這個部分也給委員做一個補充的報告"},{"start":324.833,"end":341.664,"text":"謝謝署長當然我們不管寶一或是我們一些關鍵基礎設備要買預算我們都是支持只是我們說一開始當時第一時間沒有編列在特別預算是後來才加進來讓我覺得比較奇怪這個不一樣因為那個寶二的這個關鍵設備那個是在於個人的裝備"},{"start":345.906,"end":369.831,"text":"個人的裝備的部分我們就在這個我們的那個一般的預算裡面來做這個針對是駐地的駐地的固定的跟人的沒有關係最後署長是不是可以拜託因為我們辦公室有去說想要去索取相關你們到底要買什麼有沒有重複或者是買的這個數量規格現在目前都還沒有規格的部分我想因為有的預算沒夠規格就沒辦法現在就提出這個規格"},{"start":373.052,"end":400.87,"text":"沒有 最後還是要拜託署長一般來講編列預算應該是要規格那些都出來計劃都出來以後才能編列預算我們是有估我們是有估這一些相關設備的這個大概的這個單因為像比較大概就是中章科學院的有一個標準的模式你再到辦公室跟詹委員討論好不好好 那我們就是不是再跟委員在辦公室再做詳細的說明好 謝謝署長 謝謝部長謝謝詹委員 謝謝接下來我們請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":403.112,"end":404.971,"text":"陳俊逸呢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1221,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（12時37分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家好。有請內政部劉部長及警政署張署長。"],["主席：請劉部長及張署長。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：部長好、署長好。有關「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算」，這次政府編了滿大的預算，我想要請教關於內政部的部分，第一次編列預算時還包括了台電的預算在內，後來台電的預算被刪掉，當時內政部編列了50億元老屋修繕的經費，為什麼後來增加了62億元相關的經費？這樣的經費編列是不是有點像是臨時趕鴨子上架？當時是如何做出這樣的評估？我有拿到你們在9月11日對於編列特別預算的說明，其中有許多裝備的規格都還沒有訂定清楚，甚至連顧問團隊都還在整建當中，還要等補助辦法核定之後，顧問團才會來申請輔導等等的問題。我認為在這之中包含很多關於公共建築、防災及警政的相關預算，是不是到現在你們都還沒有統整好到底要買什麼樣的東西，但是預算就已經追加編列了62.5億元？是不是可以請部長說明一下？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，你可能非常了解，第一個，內政部警政署處理有關防恐維安或防災協作的部分是與地方一起配合，因為防災協作中心是每個村里，因此要配備的設備需要一點時間去統整，等統整出來之後就會納進去，再請求行政院同意我們這樣的預算。至於統整的內容，我請警政署長向你做一個簡單的說明，好嗎？"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，關於防恐及維安特勤的裝備及設備，我們都已經做好統整了，所以這個預算是根據統整的相關設備及數量來編列。大部分是用於關鍵基礎設施的相關設備，這個部分的金額是比較多一點，大概含括全國八十幾處的關鍵基礎設施，是要建置無人機的偵測及反制系統，這是固定型的設備，也有經過我們中山科學研究院估算整個相關設備的價錢，都有做統整了，做以上的報告。"],["張委員智倫：好，請教署長，有關於這些，不管是保一總隊增加了12億採購防衛裝備與資通環境設備等等，以及關鍵基礎設施有21億採購無人機、通訊設備跟防衛裝備等等這些東西，那我在想，因為我們去年在審預算的時候，其實有全社會防衛韌性等等相關的預算，那這些預算跟你現在追加的特別預算，你們怎麼去做整體的分配？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，譬如像21億的關鍵基礎設施，這個設備是屬於目的事業主管機關，對於駐地整體的安全防護是一個基礎性的工作，而且世界各國都有做這樣的建置，我想國土韌性就是在關鍵基礎設施這個區塊做架構式的建置，對未來的灰色地帶或者是臨時的狀況有完整的整備。","這個部分我有特別到南港的國防展去看，世界各國包括現在的俄烏戰爭或者是以色列的這一些設備，人家早就已經建好了。我們要維繫油水電、電訊的這一些關鍵基礎設施，目前最難防的就是無人機的入侵，所以我們利用國土安全韌性這個機會，將完整的設施在關鍵基礎設施把它設置好，這對我們未來穩定這一方面的安全維護是非常重大的一個措施，跟委員報告。"],["張委員智倫：好。"],["張署長榮興：希望委員能夠支持這樣一個長治久安的工作，而且是跟世界接軌，這個部分也給委員做一個補充報告。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長。當然，不管是保一或者是要買一些關鍵基礎設備的預算，我們都是支持啦！只是當時第一時間沒有編列在特別預算，是後來才加進來，讓我們覺得比較奇怪。"],["張署長榮興：委員，那個不一樣，因為保二的關鍵基礎設施是在於個人的裝備，個人裝備的部分我們就在一般的預算裡面來做編列；這個則是針對駐地的、固定的，跟人的沒有關係，所以用途上不同。"],["張委員智倫：好，最後我是不是可以拜託署長？因為我們辦公室想要去索取相關資料，包括你們到底要買什麼、有沒有重複或者是買的數量、規格，目前都還沒有確定清楚。"],["張署長榮興：規格的部分，因為有的預算沒過，沒辦法現在就提出規格。"],["張委員智倫：沒有，最後還是要拜託署長，一般來講，編列預算應該是要規格那些都出來，計畫都出來以後才能編列預算。"],["張署長榮興：我們是有估這些相關設備大概的單，像比較大的就是中山科學院的，有一個標準的模式。"],["主席：署長，詳細的細節你再到辦公室跟張委員討論，好不好？因為時間的關係。"],["張署長榮興：好，我是不是再到委員辦公室做詳細的說明？"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝署長，謝謝部長。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","接下來請陳俊宇委員發言。陳俊宇委員、陳俊宇委員不在。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163924","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163924","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff06ad679da2562c9172b1f00580874b15566f4e64ae755f07d2cb1202a763c6df65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:29:47 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首先請教一下財政部部長普發一萬總統公佈後我們何時可以發放相關的期程規劃如何國人對普發一萬是高度的重視我想這個政策呢 此時還要再花1350萬的廣宣費你認為真的有必要性嗎"},{"start":32.366,"end":48.472,"text":"跟委員報告這個地方我們會在總統公佈後一個月內就可以執行發放的作業一個月內一個月內就一定可以發放一個月內一定可以發放完畢完畢不可能對不起 開始發放我用字更精準一點對 開始發放那你認為在這個時期點花1350萬廣宣費有必要嗎"},{"start":54.294,"end":74.748,"text":"廣宣費是有必要不能夠用政府的既有的宣傳資源去支應嗎現有的資源我們也會用比如說公共大眾運輸的一些車站都會用但是我希望你要盤點不要重複的支出啦我們一定會核實支出最重要的是普發疑問是政府因應美國提高關稅保護台灣出口產業以及國民經濟韌性所啟動的即時紓困"},{"start":79.631,"end":90.123,"text":"所以立院很快排審也希望行政院的程序能夠加快財政部門能夠配合盡快讓民眾能夠領到好 謝謝是 謝謝委員第二個想請問一下經濟部部長"},{"start":91.83,"end":111.775,"text":"一個比台積電赴美投資更令國人震驚的事情那就是台灣主動要在美國建立科學園區科學園區是一個群聚效應的概念台積電赴美投資就算了上下游廠商會自己決定要不要去美"},{"start":112.515,"end":125.295,"text":"但是現在政府宣布要把台灣科學園區的一個模式在美國複製等於是整個台積電上下游都請過去美國這政策的考量核心是什麼可不可以請你說明一下"},{"start":126.629,"end":148.359,"text":"報告委員因為我們產業的佈局就是秉持著總統的立足台灣佈局全球行銷全世界立足台灣是第一步所以就是說我們的能量跟最先進的技術都會留在台灣這個我都知道佈局全球的部分因為廠商他有在海外他設立據點的這樣的需求"},{"start":149.144,"end":165.897,"text":"那如果台積電因為它夠大所以它可以自己支撐整個上下游所以這個我們都知道但是有其他的很多的比較中型的或中小型的他們可能需要一個因為台灣園聚的成功主要是Cluster聚落"},{"start":166.678,"end":193.01,"text":"所以在一個聚落裡面是比較成功的機會是比較大的當然我們相信整體搬到那邊台積電上下游整體搬過去整個科學園區的一個概念聚落化在美國一定成功率大大提升我們都知道立足台灣放眼全球可是台灣整體半導產業的人才已經有短缺上下游廠商研發團隊一併移動當然你說主要的最先進的在台灣"},{"start":193.71,"end":212.136,"text":"但是一併移動會不會導致本體產業的研發能量跟本土供應鏈的鬆動整體有沒有去做一個相關的評估我想打算幫美國複製竹科經驗到底換回什麼樣的有利條件政府應該更嚴謹有依據的去做完整的說明整個台灣未來半導體產業產業鏈生態業我們的產業外移還有產業的擴張這個部分你覺得呢"},{"start":219.118,"end":234.071,"text":"就是說第一個一定要廠商有這樣的意願他有需求做全球佈局那這時候台灣的政府才會來協助那他要落地在當地要能夠成功最主要要有一個cluster的形成"},{"start":234.631,"end":249.3,"text":"這是第一步第二步他還要當地的地方政府就是國外的當地的地方政府他的facility要協助甚至於中央政府有一些法規上美國一定會協助嘛我知道嘛但是我現在擔憂的還是整體的台灣半導體的產業鏈跟生態系在台灣的部分"},{"start":252.622,"end":275.064,"text":"我希望您能夠再多重視我們不是說要阻擋但是在整個放眼全球的過程當中立足台灣這個點有沒有做到完整的配套整個完整的先顧好台灣以台灣為主我們看到現在關稅整體的樣態以及也看到美國商務部長盧特尼克9月28日接受媒體採訪"},{"start":276.145,"end":303.649,"text":"說晶片是台灣的戲盾但是對美國造成威脅美國正在討論台灣晶片生產的比例承諾從現在的95%台灣生產到美國希望調整為五五分工這是他的說法但我要講的是美國一定是以自己的整個整體利益為主但是部長95%的晶片產能在台灣真的對美國構成相對應的威脅嗎您覺得有嗎"},{"start":304.318,"end":319.018,"text":"是 包委員事實上我也回答過外界這樣的詢問我的回答是說台灣的產業是在全世界供應鏈裡面一環台灣的產業生產越有效率對全世界的供應鏈是越有幫助對 越大的貢獻"},{"start":319.418,"end":340.477,"text":"民主國家台灣我們立足台灣放眼全球讓全球看到台灣怎麼會變成是美國的威脅我簡單講這個就是美方對於供應鏈要移轉製造的壓力的政治語言所以我希望部長在這邊藉此能夠向這個國人保證我們不會接受50加50"},{"start":341.658,"end":367.836,"text":"我們不會接受這樣子的一個所謂的談判我們更希望在一連串的貿易談判當中巨大集團部長應該知道吧巨大集團最重要的品牌之一就是捷安特美國以強迫勞動現在宣布要暫扣巨大在台灣生產的自行車零組件暫停蘇美相關產品還有可能進一步的沒收 請問部長"},{"start":368.596,"end":383.99,"text":"我們有沒有相對應的措施我們掌握的狀況如何我們對於巨大這個部分的我們最重要本土的產業我們有沒有提出相對應的幫助美國有沒有提出相對應的證據這個部分我希望部長在這邊承諾你會關心此件"},{"start":386.532,"end":402.552,"text":"一定會 一定會因為我們從第一天開始跟巨大就有一個很好的他的法務部門跟他的律師也好都有跟我們非常好的最後十秒喔日本前首相石破茂對美國施壓他們是直接有勇敢的勇氣啊"},{"start":403.593,"end":411.3,"text":"但我們有沒有部長你一定要有也要告訴行政院我們現在的所有團隊應該要守護我們本土產業立足台灣是第一步好 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我們請矯正署的署長跟法務部部長請部長跟署長 謝謝喂 大家好部長好 署長好部長 您知道詐欺受刑人出獄後的這個再犯率大概是多少嗎"},{"start":30.578,"end":57.139,"text":"這部分他剛才有講這個兩年內的整體的再販率是是不到兩成不到兩成大概就在就如同我上把這個簡報傳給你看一樣所以我為什麼要提再販率因為最近我們聽到很多銀行其實是在凍結部分一般民眾的帳戶包含中信金台新等等的金融機構都有"},{"start":57.952,"end":79.313,"text":"那我們一直都不希望說讓這些一般的民眾被這些詐欺犯給影響到也就是說我們要符合比例原則怎麼樣可以確保說金融機關得到最一手的訊息來去做防範我認為這是更重要的因為我們如果只是針對案件來打擊的話"},{"start":79.833,"end":105.413,"text":"每年都會很多但是如果我們針對再犯的一犯再犯的詐騙犯如果我們有完整的資料庫並且可以完整的提供金融機構而且是實時更新的話我相信這對整體的詐欺的嚇阻是會有足夠的力量我想請問一下部長現在我們資料庫跟金融機關之間的提供或連線的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":107.167,"end":125.195,"text":"謝謝委員 這個關心的就是我們跟因為打仗一定要公私協力公部門跟私部門要做合作所以台高險也有成立一個預警中心就是我們也非常的積極跟公股銀行或者是私營的民營的銀行"},{"start":125.915,"end":150.41,"text":"來做一個合作就簽MOU就是有關於那個那個預警的訊息那這部分可以去追查就剛才委員有提到這有些可疑的交易的這些的帳戶我們可以去從這裡面去查去勾結看看這裡面可以找到詐團或者是這個是不是一個人頭的一個帳戶避免當作一個洗錢的工具也避免民眾來受損"},{"start":151.331,"end":180.541,"text":"部長我想請教的問題就是說我們在釋法性上面能不能把有詐欺相關前科的相關個資提供給金融機構讓他們可以作為重點的勾勒這個釋法性是怎麼樣釋法性我們目前是比較保留的看法那我想我們用書面的研究再跟我們報告好嗎你自己的法律的看法我認為這個是目前沒辦法去做到目前沒辦法因為它有法規上面它的限制"},{"start":181.061,"end":201.914,"text":"就是它可能會對 因為我們現在那個不起訴訴求我們沒辦法去寄給非相關的這些的提供給這些的所以我們沒有辦法提供給已經有詐欺前科的這些資料庫而且我們跟委員報告我們那個預警中心我們有些提供這可疑的一些的交易的帳戶都要去勢備化"},{"start":202.754,"end":223.765,"text":"要去四北化因為我們不可能沒有去四北化就提供這些這些的一個資料所以這部分我們目前研究目前的看法是比較保留的所以在法律上面我們沒有辦法提供就是已經有詐騙前科的讓他們做事先的去預警這可能會傷害到一些人權"},{"start":225.493,"end":249.279,"text":"這個還是要一個權衡嘛那法規也 法律也沒辦法去允許就這樣做那目前委員關心的確這個是很大的問題因為剛才我提到那個預警中心我這個業務報告裡面就提到這個預警的一個資料所以我想這個我們預警中心現在我們現在如果委員關心我跟各大的金融機構我們最近很積極去簽MOU那個備忘錄的"},{"start":251.339,"end":273.067,"text":"那這部分有很多的績效 包括台北地前有一個斬金磚那個查到那個被害金額一串 那個幾千個被害人 那個有兩百億的被害金額所以那個造成很大 台中有一間伸縮集團也是兩千 而且查扣到三十億的這些的不法所得這也就是從這些的預警的這些機制去出來的"},{"start":274.187,"end":293.379,"text":"其實我今天之所以問這個其實我是希望源頭打擊但是我當然知道說國家的法律它必須要有一致性那我們不可能為了就是打擊犯罪然後就違反某些法律的規定但是難道有沒有其他的方式因為如果我們以案件追案件的話跟以人追案件還是會有根本性的不同"},{"start":293.999,"end":319.706,"text":"那如果這些以這種20%甚至是那種未滿六個月就在犯罪我們其實很明確知道他可能還是會從事這樣的詐騙可是我們沒有辦法提供這樣子的資訊給金融機關有沒有辦法 有沒有其他的方式呢各位委員報告因為這個案件偵辦之後我們發現很多的可以提供給行政機關就源頭做一個監管的一些的"},{"start":320.626,"end":321.126,"text":"我們都會申請羈押"},{"start":339.736,"end":354.879,"text":"申請羈押那求刑用詐偽條第50條那個有關你這些重大的這些我們就要具體求刑而且求刑要求重要求重因為就是這些人一直在做而且災害是很高的所以我們這邊有做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":355.58,"end":371.751,"text":"那另外那個反刑假釋的那部分假釋的這部分我們也是有嚴格的審查我有看到這個詐欺犯的假釋駁回率是有提高的那我另外需要一個資料就是假釋還在犯的"},{"start":372.712,"end":388.183,"text":"這個比例又是多少這個部分我們也可能從這邊要再去我們再來勾結再來去打擊而且我剛剛有看到你們的這個第三頁你們資料提供第三頁就是說有一個防詐手冊這是不會再被騙了吧的第二集有出來"},{"start":389.304,"end":414.798,"text":"我認為我們可能要做的是做一些這是不會再騙了吧就是提供給這一些曾經執行過這種詐欺的這些詐欺犯要明確的告訴他們你們接下來面對的刑期增長是什麼樣的以及你們違反你們過去不要違反假釋的後果是什麼要讓他們很清楚的知道不要再說我不知道這個是犯罪我不知道我在當車手不能夠再讓他們假裝自己無辜要讓他們"},{"start":415.678,"end":443.113,"text":"知情說如果你們再犯你們所要付出的代價只會增倍大概是這樣子這個部分也希望部長能夠來去責成那特別是矯正機關我們這邊有數字嘛我們已經有看到是20%那我們可能部長要下指令下指令就是說我們的再犯率要怎樣把它降低也就是說我們除了要去嚇阻犯罪加重騎行那矯正教化這個部分可能要想一下甚至是"},{"start":444.133,"end":471.696,"text":"包含這個修復式的施法讓他們直接面對這些被害者看他們怎麼讓這些被害者造成他們的家庭影響甚至是有些是家破人亡讓他們直視自己犯罪的錯誤所付出的要付出的代價這個部分我想部長可以責成矯正署也好我們把這個我們現在已知就是有這些人在犯罪而且這些人還在犯我們把它做一些做一些修正讓這個數字再下降一點好不好好 謝謝好 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請教育部政部長好 請政部長委員好"},{"start":25.97,"end":29.772,"text":"部長午安在特別預算之前我這邊要先請教部長明年教育部的編列的預算少了908.7億這個引起許多教師以及許多教育團體的討論很關心我們受到才化法的影響中央各部會將大幅的經費都分到了地方政府"},{"start":49.98,"end":77.85,"text":"但是相關的業務該由誰負責如何分工仍然是很不明確的大問題那過往呢地方政府往往說經費不足許多教育經費呢都仰賴中央的補助例如像電費啊我們增加教師員額的經費或是非營利幼兒園的補助甚至是學校的修繕硬體修繕那以彰化縣為例呢通常也都是中央補助七成地方政府自行負擔三成這樣的分配比例"},{"start":78.43,"end":86.524,"text":"那明年的這個預算已經大幅從中央分到地方部長我想請教目前教育部有沒有跟地方政府來討論相關業務的分工"},{"start":91.445,"end":110.916,"text":"跟委員報告 整體在115年的預算跟今年的預算事實上實質是只有短少79億那為什麼委員會提到說900億是我們有這個教育部實質補助到地方的一般補助有這個配額是813億"},{"start":113.317,"end":122.367,"text":"所以在這個部分整體來講教育部主管的地方政府的經費會配有955里面包含一般補助813億跟這一個"},{"start":125.837,"end":146.784,"text":"這一個計畫型補助是142億所以整體來講我們當然因為這一個財務好以後部長 我這邊請教您的是說你們教育部跟地方政府的分工有沒有開始討論了事實上我們這一直都在討論一直在討論好 如果是在進行中也希望說"},{"start":148.345,"end":164.042,"text":"等你們討論出大家是有共識的時候呢教育部跟地方政府這個分工可以明確的告訴民眾讓大家一起可以來監督可以清楚明瞭地方政府有沒有落實從中央分配到的關於教育預算的這些經費的使用"},{"start":164.967,"end":194.1,"text":"謝謝委員提醒好那接下來呢我請教部長喔本次呢我們醫院國際情勢這個特別預算呢教育部有針對支持高教育產業合作共培人才有編列了80億是用在補助大學的校園延攬及留任出聘編制內的專任教師那主要是希望說可以在國際情勢的影響之下因為國際情勢造成人才的流動我們可以讓研究型的大學可以留下優秀的人才"},{"start":194.54,"end":212.247,"text":"更可以吸引到國際優秀人才來台灣研究並且由各校院來規劃十年的纜財計劃但是根據過往我們彈性薪資的方案執行內容在補助的人數方面其實新聘的人數是遞減另外針對獲得補助的這個級值來看"},{"start":216.249,"end":234.55,"text":"副教授 助理教授等青壯世代的學者或是補助的比例還是比較低 能代提升那監察院這邊也調查報告就說彈性薪資方案補助的對象是偏重在現職人員對國際人才延攬的成效其實是有待加強的那部長您知道這個狀況嗎"},{"start":236.681,"end":256.093,"text":"跟委員報告 確實在過去因為在談信息裡面主要是看教授們的個人的學術研究表現以及教學還有對社會的一些貢獻那當然會升到教授某種程度他的研究能量確實會比年輕的學者 助理教授 副教授好一點"},{"start":256.673,"end":276.987,"text":"那也因為這樣 陳委員所關心高教師跟計時師也看到這一個現象所以我們現在各校的這個談信心是至少在副教授以下要有40%副總 現職人員跟比較資深的一定有他的優勢而且有他本身很優秀的地方我們是要留任"},{"start":277.407,"end":287.014,"text":"但是延攬新進的人才新聘的人才這一塊我們要怎麼來努力我希望說我在這邊提出這個提醒就是希望我們未來教育部應該審慎的評估各校提出的這個攬財計畫那其實關稅的衝擊影響的不只是產業面經濟面因為連帶會影響到其實我們學界的影響很大因為經濟的變動會使人才流動"},{"start":300.143,"end":328.104,"text":"所以希望说我们要确实的来督导相关的这些业务的执行我们才能够达到鼓励教师留任以及延揽的这个目标是 我想我们教育部所这次的一个特别议算的200亿里边的100亿本来就是完全就是跟委员的一个想法是一样的我们因为产业的蓬勃发展产业的待遇确实也吸引了许多年轻的一个这个有高学位的这些人才"},{"start":328.544,"end":352.026,"text":"那我們怎麼樣能夠把產業的一個需求包含這些人才能夠為大學所用這是我們這一次裡面特別提出來的因為我們也跟委員報告委員也非常清楚有非常多研究型大學現在在理學院工學院事實上是聘不到老師不容易聘到甚至在文理社科也都有一樣的一些問題我們也希望能夠"},{"start":352.486,"end":372.098,"text":"除非這個預算我們是支持的但是如何能夠執行到位能夠真正發揮它的效益這個部分希望教育部這邊能夠再努力是 我們一定會把關也跟各大學也都有一定程度的一些交換意見怎麼樣去建立一個機制 攬財的一個機制跟留財的一個機制謝謝部長 謝謝陳秀馬委員的質詢接下來請羅廷維委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1146,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（12時23分）謝謝主席，請教育部鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，午安。在討論特別預算之前，我要先請教部長，明年度教育部編列的預算少了908.7億元，引起許多教師及教育團體的討論及關心。因為受到財劃法的影響，中央各部會將大幅的經費都分到了地方政府，但是相關的業務該由誰負責、如何分工，仍然是很不明確的大問題。過往地方政府往往說經費不足，許多教育經費都仰賴中央的補助，例如電費、增加教師員額的經費或非營利幼兒園的補助，甚至是學校的硬體修繕。以彰化縣為例，通常也都是中央補助七成，地方政府自行負擔三成，這樣的分配比例。明年的預算已經大幅從中央分到地方，請問部長，目前教育部有沒有與地方政府討論相關業務的分工？"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，事實上，115年的整體預算相較於今年的預算只有短少79億元，為什麼委員會提到908億元，是因為教育部實質補助給地方的一般補助配額是813億元。整體來講，教育部主管地方政府的955億元經費中，包含一般補助的813億元及計畫型補助的142億元，因為在這個財劃法之後……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，我要請教你的是，教育部與地方政府的分工是否已經開始討論？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上我們一直都在討論。"],["陳委員秀寳：一直在討論？"],["鄭部長英耀：一直都在討論。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果是在進行中，也希望在你們的討論取得共識之後，可以將教育部與地方政府的分工明確地告訴民眾，讓大家可以一起監督，清楚明瞭地方政府有沒有落實從中央分配到的教育預算經費的使用。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來要再請教部長，本次因應國際情勢提出特別預算，教育部針對支持高教與產業合作共培人才編列80億元，補助大學校院延攬及留任初聘編制內的專任教師，因為國際情勢的影響，造成人才的流動，希望能藉此協助研究型的大學留下優秀的人才，更希望能夠吸引國際的優秀人才來臺灣研究，並且由各校院規劃十年的攬才計畫。但是根據過往我們的彈性薪資方案執行內容來看，在補助的人數方面，其實新聘的人數是遞減的。另外，針對獲得補助的級職來看，副教授、助理教授等青壯世代的學者獲補助的比例還是比較低，希望能夠再提升。根據監察院的調查報告，彈性薪資方案的補助對象偏重在現職人員，對國際人才延攬的成效其實是有待加強的。部長，你知道這個狀況嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，確實在過去彈性薪資主要是看教授個人的學術研究表現、教學以及對社會的貢獻，當然，能夠升到教授在某種程度上，他的研究能量確實會比年輕學者、助理教授或副教授好一點。不過，誠如陳委員所關心的，高教司與技職司也看到了這個現象，所以現在各校的彈性薪資至少在副教授以下要有40%。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，現職人員與資深人員一定有他的優勢，而且有他本身很優秀的地方，我們需要予以留任，但是延攬新聘人才的這一塊，我們要如何努力？我在這邊做這個提醒，是希望教育部未來應該審慎評估各校提出的攬才計畫。其實關稅衝擊影響的不只是產業面、經濟面，連帶也會對學界產生很大的影響，因為經濟的變動會使人才流動，希望我們能夠確實督導相關的業務執行，才能達到鼓勵教師留任及延攬的目標。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，教育部這次編列的200億元特別預算中的100億元就是與委員的想法完全一樣，因為產業的蓬勃發展、產業的待遇，確實也吸引了許多高學位的年輕人才，我們如何因應產業的需求，讓這些人才能夠為大學所用，正是我們這次特別提出來的。委員也非常清楚，目前有非常多研究型大學的理學院、工學院都不容易聘到老師，甚至在文理社科也都有一樣的問題，我們也希望能夠……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，所以我們對於這筆經費、這筆預算是支持的……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是如何能夠執行到位、能夠真正發揮它的效益，希望教育部能針對這個部分再努力。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們一定會把關，也與各大學有一定程度的交換意見，如何建立起攬才的機制與留才的機制。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff03b3ab49b770260b42b1f00580874b15566f4e64ae755f07d058d39ead7a38cca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"12:15:54 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謝謝主席有請國防部海巡署請國防部顧部長海巡署是那個是誰署長海巡署張署長各位在哪裡"},{"start":31.705,"end":45.551,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長本席過去不斷重申自動任性很重要不過過去我們看到中華電信還有相關行政院的憑證遭到Google撤銷不信任"},{"start":46.511,"end":67.576,"text":"以及對能夠補強頻寬的STARLINK疑神疑鬼最近一下又說不行 一下又說可以 後續也沒有下文最近還有海嵐很可能遭遇到被割斷的風險很可能我們台灣變成數位孤島想先請問一下國防部 在預算書第49頁的部分"},{"start":69.696,"end":85.706,"text":"有提到這個要構置執行光纖電纜搶修等等的這個設備相關的預算想請問這個部分是用來應對當海纜遭切斷時我們可能會遇到的人民沒有辦法上網我們軍隊也可能受到影響的情況嗎"},{"start":87.735,"end":108.949,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分應該是在主要是在光纖的部分在哪裡的部分不好意思就地面的光纖的部分好那是不是只支援國軍各站台間的管道還是也來影響到保護到我們人民的這個上網的一個狀態"},{"start":110.916,"end":135.341,"text":"我們應該著重的部分是在國軍本身的部分民間的部分的話應該是由民間的這個電信公司來部長我們不是說好了要全民國防嗎那打仗或者是極端狀況發生的時候只有國軍需要任性嗎我們變成其他人變數位孤島都沒有關係嗎我們應該是共同協作因為"},{"start":136.368,"end":155.438,"text":"是謝謝部長 軍方跟軍方的部分民間跟民間的部分我們一起會形成一個網狀的一個體系我只需要您這四個字啦這些預算不應該只是在國軍各站台間的管道布放以及保護好不好希望有共同協作的部分請您再仔細理清"},{"start":156.738,"end":179.775,"text":"谢谢那接下来在预算书第49页的地方呢也有提到这个卫星通讯设备的租赁因为我们刚刚看其实没有保护到一般民间的这个网络通讯的韧性我们就想说那如果有卫星的话可能好一点一开始还很高兴看到说哇有这个卫星这个使用563亿啊"},{"start":183.498,"end":193.917,"text":"結果是要用租的我想請問一下這個部分是要怎麼規劃有哪些限制預計什麼樣的評官有沒有規劃這個我們是不是請同事"},{"start":195.842,"end":217.735,"text":"委員好我是通知室次長我們當初的規劃就是因為用租的既有的這個可以盡快的形成我們的戰力那如果要重新建置的話我們可能投資的成本我理解租可以我們沒有說不能租你要跟誰租多少頻寬什麼時間你是要跟one web租那頻寬夠嗎還是starlink有考慮在內嗎"},{"start":221.658,"end":226.604,"text":"是另外一型的卫星那平宽我们也讨论过是可以满足我们的需求"},{"start":227.335,"end":252.524,"text":"那未來這個衛星下鏈了之後可以居民共用平寬多少 哪一家所以不是starlink也不是oneweb所以另外的租賃要花563億啊那烏克蘭用的是哪一家您知道嗎563億不是全部用在這個衛星的租賃上面所以嘛我們就想要問你衛星租賃要花多少錢你這裡底下寫的很清楚啊數量很高啊"},{"start":256.206,"end":268.552,"text":"那到底分開來是多少你衛星要花多少跟誰租我們完全沒有細節麻煩會後提供細節好嗎然後這個民間可以使用嗎民間可以使用嗎"},{"start":269.894,"end":290.29,"text":"我想我們主要在建構這個韌性的部分既有的這些相關的手段我們都會跟軍警消來可以互通然後我們在有任何災害的時候我們也可以將這些都能夠投入災區的防救我剛剛問題你們一個都沒有回答到有沒有包含沙令"},{"start":291.854,"end":320.644,"text":"呃 這一個 平寬多少這一個案子裡面沒有你們列在五百六十三億裡最重要的第一個衛星通訊備援網路租賃我現在問幾個問題都沒有答得出來你們到底錢要怎麼花啊那民間能不能用都沒有回答 我沒有部長 不好意思 我很尊重您可是您剛剛都在 都在念稿啊我要答到這三個答案你們誰可以告訴我第一 有沒有SARlink第二 平寬多少第三 民間能不能用"},{"start":322.183,"end":335.917,"text":"我想第一個 不是STARLINK第二個 頻寬我們經過評估是夠我們的作戰防衛需求多少嘛 頻寬多少3G3G的頻寬衛星3G的頻寬你確定 3G BPS是沒錯上傳還是下載下鏈"},{"start":347.347,"end":370.69,"text":"夏戀是3G的頻寬好這一點你麻煩確認一下我想這個基礎的設施也很重要現在有一些這個相關的這個資安人員有提到火箭發射基地的一些支通的設備是有非常多危害跟漏洞的麻煩清查確認一下那以及最後一個問題不好意思主席"},{"start":372.219,"end":388.675,"text":"請問一下海巡署啊你們這邊149億啊要來做一些相關的規劃我們想請問一下細節結果呢一切呢都說是機密我想請問一下這個細節能不能以密件提供"},{"start":390.457,"end":409.17,"text":"包委員可以我們會後再提供給委員好那我們會後來了解一下因為是149億不低喔那另外這個密件又很重要的話我們剛剛的這些預算或者149億有沒有算在美國對我們的國防預算的要求當中這個能不能算在我們的GDP的%數裡面"},{"start":412.523,"end":432.432,"text":"用書面答覆好不好這個麻煩詳細的詳細書面答覆一下我們也希望我們的韌性不是只會編預算而已還是要非常仔細的來規劃才能讓我們民眾的每一分錢都用在對的地方真正提升韌性謝謝我們謝謝葛國軍委員署長請回接下來我們請陳秀寶委員發言謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1098,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（12時15分）謝謝主席，有請國防部、海巡署。"],["主席：請國防部顧部長、海巡署張署長。"],["顧部長立雄：葛委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，也謝謝署長。本席不斷重申資通韌性很重要，不過過去我們看到中華電信還有行政院等相關憑證遭到Google撤銷、不信任，以及對於能夠補強頻寬的Starlink疑神疑鬼，一下子說不行、一下子又說可以，後續也沒有下文。最近還有什麼呢？還有海纜遭遇被割斷的風險，臺灣很可能變成數位孤島。我想先請問國防部，在預算書第49頁提到，要購置執行光纖（電纜）搶修等設備的相關預算，這部分是用來應對當海纜遭切斷時，可能遇到例如人民沒有辦法上網、軍隊也可能受到影響的情況嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，主要應該是在光纖的部分。"],["葛委員如鈞：在哪個部分，不好意思？"],["顧部長立雄：就是地面光纖的部分。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。那是不是只支援國軍各站臺間的管道？還是也能影響、保護到人民上網的狀態？"],["顧部長立雄：我們著重的部分應該是國軍本身，民間的部分應該是由民間電信公司處理。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我們不是說好了要全民國防嗎？打仗或極端狀況發生的時候，只有國軍需要韌性嗎？我們其他人變成數位孤島都沒有關係嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是共同協作。軍方處理軍方的部分，民間處理民間的部分，我們會一起形成一個網狀的體系。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，我只需要您這四個字啦！這些預算不應該只用在國軍各站臺間的管道佈放以及保護，好不好？針對共同協作的部分，請您再仔細理清。謝謝。","接下來，預算書第49頁提到衛星通訊設備的租賃，我剛剛看了，其實沒有保護到一般民間的網路通訊韌性。本來我還想如果有衛星的話可能會好一點，所以我一開始還很高興，因為看到有衛星可以使用啊！563億元啊！結果卻是要用租的！我想請問一下，這個部分要怎麼規劃、有哪些限制、預計用什麼樣的頻寬？有沒有規劃？"],["解次長駿山：委員好，我是通次室次長。我們當初規劃是因為用租的話，既有衛星可以儘快形成戰力，如果要重新建置的話，我們投資的成本可能……"],["葛委員如鈞：我理解，租可以，我沒有說不能租，那麼要跟誰租、多少頻寬、什麼時間？你是要跟OneWeb租？那頻寬夠嗎？Starlink有考慮在內嗎？"],["解次長駿山：是另外一型衛星。至於頻寬，我們也討論過，可以滿足我們的需求，未來衛星下鏈之後，可以軍民共用。"],["葛委員如鈞：頻寬多少、哪一家？所以不是Starlink、也不是OneWeb，另外租賃要花563億元啊！烏克蘭用的是哪一家，您知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：563億元不是全部用在衛星的租賃上面。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我們就想問你，衛星租賃要花多少錢？你這裡寫得很清楚，數量很高啊！到底分開來是多少？衛星要花多少？向誰租？完全沒有細節，麻煩會後提供細節，好嗎？再者，民間可以使用這個嗎？民間可以使用嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們主要建構韌性的這個部分，既有的相關手段，我們都會與軍警消互通，而且在發生任何災害的時候，我們也可以將這些都投入災區的防救。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝部長。對於我剛剛提出的問題，你們一個都沒有回答，有沒有包含Starlink？頻寬多少？"],["顧部長立雄：這個案子裡沒有……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們在563億元中列出最重要的第一個是衛星通訊備援網路租賃，對於我現在問的幾個問題，你們都答不出來，你們這筆錢到底要怎麼花啊？民間能不能用？都沒有回答！部長，不好意思！我是很尊重你，但你剛剛都在念稿啊！我要得到的這三個答案，你們有誰可以告訴我？第一，有沒有Starlink？第二，頻寬多少？第三，民間能不能用？"],["顧部長立雄：第一，不是Starlink。第二，經過我們的評估，頻寬足夠我們的作戰防衛需求。"],["葛委員如鈞：多少？頻寬多少？"],["顧部長立雄：3個……"],["解次長駿山：3G。"],["顧部長立雄：3G。"],["葛委員如鈞：3G的頻寬？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：衛星3G的頻寬，你確定？3Gbps？"],["解次長駿山：是，沒錯。"],["葛委員如鈞：上傳還是下載？"],["解次長駿山：下鏈。"],["葛委員如鈞：下鏈？"],["解次長駿山：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：3G的頻寬，這一點麻煩你確認一下。我認為基礎的設施也很重要，現在有一些相關資安人員提到火箭發射基地的一些資通設備有非常多危害及漏洞，麻煩清查確認一下。","最後一個問題，請問海巡署，你們這邊提出149億元要做一些相關的規劃，因此我們想了解相關的細節，結果你們一切都回說是機密，我想請問這個細節能否以密件提供？"],["張署長忠龍：報告委員，可以，我們會後再提供給委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們就會後再來了解，因為149億元的金額不低喔！另外，如果這個密件很重要的話，剛剛的這些預算或149億元，有沒有算在美國對我們提出的國防預算要求之中？這個能不能算在我們GDP的趴數之中？"],["主席：用書面答復，好不好？"],["張署長忠龍：我們會後再提供給委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：麻煩以書面詳細答復一下。"],["主席：詳細的細節以書面答復。"],["張署長忠龍：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們也希望我們的韌性不是只會編預算而已，還是要非常仔細的規劃，才能讓我們民眾的每一分錢都用在對的地方，真正提升韌性，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員，署長請回。","接下來請陳秀寳委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff087874bb1cc18f327b1cbd8f3401de56a66f4e64ae755f07d39c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:13:39 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請林委員發言 謝謝好 謝謝我們主席 昭緯請一下這個我們法務部部長請部長"},{"start":16.316,"end":41.886,"text":"部長您好本席在這邊首先要先談的是跟憲法保障還有人權尊嚴有關的一個議題也就是原住民族的司法權益在去年8月監察院的司法及域政委員會通過了監委王美玉的一個調查報告指出在太魯閣的一個行賄案件當中檢警沒有落實對原住民族司法權益的保障"},{"start":42.526,"end":72.069,"text":"那這個報告裡面把整個個案的瑕疵有點出來但是反映的也是一個整個制度長期的結構性的一個缺陷那這個個案是呢一個太魯閣的李姓婦人跟他的共犯在這起案件裡面那他們是太魯閣族的但是呢檢警知道他們是太魯閣族的但卻沒有確認他們是不是要使用族語來應訊那他們甚至自己判斷檢警自行判斷說能講國語就不用通"},{"start":74.212,"end":86.83,"text":"這個有很大的一個缺失這顯示出一個行政方便來凌駕人權這樣子的辦案文化不是只有程序的瑕疵而是對原住民族司法保障的一個掏空"},{"start":87.711,"end":112.683,"text":"那您知道嗎在各個語言後面有一些社會文化邏輯的背景那這個不是我們用一般我們認為的一個想法就可以去了解這需要更多的一個同理學習跟了解所以呢在這個部分監察院又更進一步的在指出目前地檢署原住民的通譯在主語的語別"},{"start":113.203,"end":137.586,"text":"跟人數上跟實際的案件需求是嚴重的失衡也就是說基本上是不夠的人也不夠語言別也不夠因為原民會的資料我們在原住民族我想部長應該知道目前有16個族裔那42種方言別那檢察署現在的通譯只有7種族裔連一半都不到"},{"start":138.166,"end":165.673,"text":"那這樣子的落差在原住民族司法程序當中難免有的時候在母語方面沒有辦法完整的表達那在思維方面可能也不是太多人能夠理解所以沒有辦法確切的公述真實的程序跟你們所認為的正當性所以本席在這邊要提醒法務部根據原住民族基本法第30條國家有義務要提供足夠的族語通譯"},{"start":166.713,"end":180.06,"text":"而不是由偵辦人員用他有限制的知識來片面判斷是不是有需要同意再則在ICERD消除一切形式種族歧視的國際公約當中"},{"start":187.924,"end":207.319,"text":"以及司法的國事會議裡面都已經決議明確地要求建立完整的援助民族司法通譯制度確保弱勢的族群在訴訟當中不會因為語言與文化的差異而受到不公平的對待"},{"start":208.2,"end":232.571,"text":"所以本席在這邊要具體的請教法務部這一年是盤點了全國各級檢察署通譯人力與別與案件的需求嗎那目前補足的計畫是如何第二個部分是檢察官的實務現況是不是能夠及時調度通譯那請部長是不是可以針對這個部分給本席回應"},{"start":234.372,"end":254.547,"text":"謝謝委員那目前的那個同意我們在原住民組這邊的同意這部分我們有特約的一個同意其實剛才提到的目前只有7種的語言別這個部分你們是怎麼處理呢目前是有18種有8種目前有8種18種"},{"start":258.567,"end":274.398,"text":"八族 有八族的語言就是從去年到今年應該從七族多到了就是八族的語言那目前是有37位目前37位那跟你們的這個案量來比應該目前還是失衡的吧"},{"start":275.338,"end":297.289,"text":"這部分我們再來做一個了解 是不是請部長這邊了解一下部署的話是有臨時的同意 臨時的同意就是有各檢察署它是有元宇基金會的元宇人才的資料庫跟司法院移民署的機關的同意人才庫來尋求臨時的同意來應這個特約同意的部署的這一個部分"},{"start":297.689,"end":318.371,"text":"本席今天把這個部分點出來你是不是可以把相關更精細的資訊給本席的辦公室讓我們了解一下目前失衡的狀況你們捕捉的一個狀態是如何精進的這部分我們再來就順便報告跟委員做一個說明最重要就是說司法希望每個人能夠被理解被傾聽所以當一個原住民的婦人"},{"start":318.871,"end":340.645,"text":"因為語言的隔閡結果喪失了一個辯護權這不是只有個案的悲哀而是對國家弱勢很失職的一個證明所以希望法務部能夠針對上訴的問題的改善方案然後有一個時程那是不是部長這邊針對本期所提到的這個問題您覺得多久時間可以改善到什麼程度"},{"start":344.838,"end":359.729,"text":"我們就先盡快給本席一個時程好不好你們也研究了解一下好嗎是好 謝謝接下來本席要針對追蹤是追蹤本席有提過的就是第一線矯正專業人員的待遇的問題"},{"start":361.03,"end":382.015,"text":"那剛才在前面質詢的莊委員跟賴委員都有非常關心矯正相關人員就是在這個處遇之後呢再犯還有是不是有效這樣一個問題那本席這邊指出來的就是這個矯正是否有用論跟執行的人員也有很大的關係"},{"start":383.135,"end":392,"text":"所以剛才其實他們在討論的時候呢也有點出一些問題那本席在今年的六月質詢之後呢本席質詢的是針對矯正機關外聘人員執行專業諮詢治療"},{"start":400.125,"end":412.218,"text":"輔導評估及授課處遇費用支給表長期大概有十年都沒有做調整的這個部分是本席在六月份質詢的時候所提出來的所以剛才莊委員有提到你們好像變一種數字遊戲啦"},{"start":413.78,"end":430.308,"text":"但是在量化的不足的這個部分如何用質化來補足這個第一線的人員的這個知己就非常的重要所以剛才本席所談到這個知己是從民國101年核定到今天"},{"start":431.028,"end":455.311,"text":"10年都沒有人去注意也沒有調整那期間的基本工資也已經調漲了52%那這整整遠低於衛福部或社安計畫網的行情標準那我想矯正署你們應該也是了解啦這樣子的待遇導致外聘的醫師心理師社工師流動率應該很高吧那聘用也困難處遇的這個品質也下降本席想請教法務部"},{"start":456.692,"end":484.55,"text":"這項草案應該就我們的了解那矯正署應該送到法務部了嘛所以這個目前這個草案目前進行到什麼階段什麼時候可以實施能不能夠具體的承諾在今年前能夠完成核定與發布讓這樣一個新的標準準時的上路盡快的上路那未來是不是也可以建立定期的一個檢討制度避免十年才被發現十年才調整一次的荒謬現象"},{"start":485.73,"end":504.38,"text":"謝謝我們的關心 關於這一點的話我們有提出這樣的一個調生案目前得到訊息是應該是有通過的只是說我還沒看到確認有通過嗎 就法務部這邊這個已經 假設屬韓報本部本部已經韓報行政院因為這個終點費的調整是屬於行政院的權責"},{"start":506.181,"end":535.106,"text":"所以法務部這邊已經送到行政院了嘛所以矯正署送到法務部法務部已經送出去法務部到行政院了目前是這個階段是嗎是好好謝謝那很感謝啦感謝矯正署做了這樣一個薪資調整的這個草案那也感謝法務部的支持那接下去本席會繼續針對這樣一個第一線人員的薪資知己的提高然後讓我們整個效度整個在矯正處遇上的效度能夠提高我想這應該是包括我們召委包括我們主席包括許多委員"},{"start":535.686,"end":538.594,"text":"都關心的這樣一個議題那請大家一起來支持謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1259,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時13分）謝謝主席，請法務部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，您好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：本席首先要談的是跟憲法保障還有人權尊嚴有關的議題，也就是原住民族的司法權益。去年八月，監察院的司法及獄政委員會通過了監委王美玉的調查報告，指出在一起太魯閣行賄案件當中，檢警沒有落實對原住民族司法權益的保障，報告裡面有把整件個案的瑕疵點出來，但是反映的也是整個制度長期以來的結構性缺陷。這起個案涉及一名太魯閣族李姓婦人跟其共犯，他們都是太魯閣族人，但檢警雖然知道他們是太魯閣族人，卻沒有確認他們是不是要使用族語應訊，甚至自行判斷，認為能講國語就不用通譯！這裡有很大的缺失，顯示出行政方便凌駕人權。這樣的辦案文化不是只有程序的瑕疵，而是對原住民族司法保障的掏空。","您知道嗎？在各個語言後面有一些社會文化、邏輯的背景，不是用一般、我們認為的想法就可以了解，而是需要更多同理、學習跟了解。在這個部分，監察院更進一步指出，目前地檢署原住民通譯在族語語別跟人數上與實際的案件需求之間嚴重失衡，也就是說基本上是不夠的，人也不夠、語言別也不夠。","依照原民會的資料，我想部長應該知道，目前有16種族語、42種方言別，而檢察署現在的通譯只有7種族語，連一半都不到，這樣的落差在原住民族的司法程序當中，有時候難免在母語方面沒有辦法完整地表達，在思維方面可能也沒有太多人能夠理解，沒有辦法確切地供述真實的程序跟你們所認為的正當性。","所以本席在這邊要提醒法務部，根據原住民族基本法第三十條，國家有義務提供足夠的族語通譯，而不是由偵辦人員用他有限制的知識片面判斷是否需要通譯。再則，在ICERD（International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination《消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約》）當中，以及在司法國是會議裡都已經決議，明確要求建立完整的原住民族司法通譯制度，確保弱勢族群在訴訟當中不會因為語言與文化的差異而受到不公平的對待。所以本席在這邊要具體請教，法務部這一年盤點了全國各級檢察署通譯人力、語別與案件的需求嗎？目前補足的計畫如何？第二個部分是以檢察官的實務、現況，是不是能夠及時調度通譯？部長是不是可以針對這個部分給本席回應？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。關於目前的通譯，我們針對原住民族這部分有特約通譯。"],["林委員倩綺：針對本席剛才提到目前只有7種語言別這個部分，你們怎麼處理呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前有18種……有8種……"],["林委員倩綺：目前有8種？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前有8族……"],["林委員倩綺：有8族語言？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有18種……"],["林委員倩綺：從去年到今年應該是從7族增多到8族語言？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是有37位。"],["林委員倩綺：目前是37位？那跟你們的案量來比，應該是失衡的吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來了解。"],["林委員倩綺：對，是不是請部長了解一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外是有臨時通譯，就是各檢察署由原語基金會的原語人才資料庫跟司法院與移民署等機關的通譯人才庫尋求臨時通譯，以應特約通譯不足的部分。"],["林委員倩綺：本席今天把這個部分點出來，你是不是可以把更精細的相關資訊提供給本席辦公室，讓我們了解一下目前失衡的狀況、你們補足的狀態如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就剛才提的精進部分，我們再以書面報告向委員說明。"],["林委員倩綺：對，謝謝。最重要的就是關於司法，希望每個人都能被理解、被傾聽，所以當一名原住民婦人因為語言的隔閡喪失了辯護權，這不只是個案的悲哀，而是國家對弱勢失職的證明啦！所以希望法務部針對上述問題的改善方案能有一個時程。就本席所提到的這個問題，部長覺得多久時間後可以改善到什麼程度？"],["鄭部長銘謙：兩週，儘快。"],["林委員倩綺：那就先儘快給本席時程好不好？你也研究、了解一下，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。","接下來本席要追蹤本席提過的，就是第一線矯正專業人員待遇的問題。剛才在前面質詢的莊委員跟賴委員都非常關心矯正相關人員處遇之後再犯以及矯正是否有效這樣的問題，而本席要指出的就是矯正是否有用論跟執行人員也有很大的關係吧？剛才討論的時候其實也點出一些問題。本席在今年六月質詢的是矯正機關外聘人員執行專業諮詢、治療、輔導、評估及授課處遇費用支給表大概有十年都沒有調整。這個部分是本席在六月份質詢的時候所提出來的。剛才莊委員也提到，你們好像變成一種數字遊戲。","量化不足的部分如何用質化補足，第一線人員的支給就非常重要，但是剛才本席所談到的支給是從民國101年核定到今天，十年來都沒有人注意、也沒有調整，而這段期間基本工資已經調漲了52%，也遠低於衛福部或社安計畫網的行情標準，我想矯正署應該也了解這樣的待遇導致外聘醫師、心理師、社工師流動率很高吧？且聘用困難，處遇的品質也下降。本席想請教法務部，關於這項草案，就我們的了解，矯正署應該已經送到法務部了吧？"],["林署長憲銘：是。"],["林委員倩綺：所以目前這項草案進行到什麼階段？什麼時候可以實施？能不能具體承諾在今年以前完成核定與發布，讓這樣的新標準能夠準時上路、儘快上路？未來是不是也可以建立定期的檢討制度，避免十年才被發現、十年才調整一次的荒謬現象？"],["林署長憲銘：謝謝委員的關心，關於這一點，我們提出這樣的調升案。目前得到的訊息是應該有通過，只是我還沒看到……"],["林委員倩綺：確認有通過嗎？法務部這邊……"],["林處長錦慧：這個方案矯正署已經函報本部，本部也函報行政院，因為鐘點費的調整屬於行政院的權責。"],["林委員倩綺：所以法務部這邊已經送到行政院了嘛！"],["林處長錦慧：對。"],["林委員倩綺：所以矯正署送到法務部、法務部也已經送出法務部、到行政院了，目前是這個階段，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。很感謝矯正署做了這樣的薪資調整草案，也感謝法務部的支持，接下來本席會繼續針對第一線人員的薪資支給提高加以追蹤，讓整個矯正處遇上的效度能夠提高。我想這應該是包括召委、主席也包括許多委員都關心的議題，請大家一起支持。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。林委員剛剛講的議題很重要，我最近也觀察到，行政院那裡是不是壓了很多各機關提出的案子，包含法規命令、作業要點等等都沒有核定？這其實已經造成很多機關在執行職務上發生窒礙難行的情況，尤其是立法院要求各部會機關都要提出相關作業要點的修正，乃至於這種待遇加給等等，所以麻煩部長回去後也要向院長反映，儘量對機關所提出的相關辦法、要點修正以及作業規定等等趕快核定，不要拖拖拉拉的。","接下來請陳冠廷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00001"}}},{"id":"163917","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163917","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ae5a16ddab2b6a692b1f00580874b15566f4e64ae755f07def5a74ead98971cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"12:08:05 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我請來政部長請內政部長 劉部長教育委員 你好部長 辛苦了房價這麼貴"},{"start":29.136,"end":44.081,"text":"你們變成任性預算 任性國防 任性防災我知道你很辛苦 掩飾這個事情有人在社會有些聲音 要有宅哥威的人要有菩薩的心腸 人家蓋不住就要架 沒有必要"},{"start":51.584,"end":59.569,"text":"我請教妳喔,在今年的風態來開始,妳是裁縫中心的指揮官。這是任務編組的。開設幾次。為今年開始,開設幾次喔?應該是四、五拜吧。我可能要詢問一下,不好意思。沒關係,頭一拜就是七月初五,我們台南的丹納斯,頭一拜嘛。"},{"start":78.137,"end":90.825,"text":"再來就是7月2月放水災再來這個8月10日我們一級開始就是在放太陽流再來最好可能就是9月2、3嘛來 我請教你就是說你卡電話給錢來這邊補充你放完是到1日9月7、4還是9月7、39月7、39月7、3嘛"},{"start":107.045,"end":118.128,"text":"本身在這裡跟你傾聽 不行動是大行這就是菩薩的心動 你如果沒有靠這種定位今天的聖夢絕對是有夠淺蕩的啦但是你求這個規定中 你的中間 天下要收到大行大行公認 你說他 沒必要"},{"start":129.81,"end":138.175,"text":"你如果沒有靠這兩個電話 如果沒有代替這個團隊他最後送給你的資料這個模型是 高的利益 才不是高的利益利益高的利益嘛齁所以你每天三十點鐘的時間 你來做應變然後核達這個命令 坦白講這後面要求職檢調單位去查 因為這有卡到你們名"},{"start":158.986,"end":175.533,"text":"本省跟你說 你在九尾車山跟卡士頓電圍因為你是九尾二山跟升陸這個採訪中心之前那一半 你是在八尾十二升陸的所以表示你有去接納到一些專家跟你說的建議跟評估這本省在這裡送給你一個傾聽 不行動的台詞"},{"start":182.97,"end":193.24,"text":"如果沒有,這班的上門絕對不是這樣而已不管百姓六百的體體多少就是已經把大量的人靠在這裡移出所以這是有很多人面向依然這本身對你的傾聽,來都要保重在這裏裁縫中心沒有設立的進程"},{"start":208.365,"end":218.412,"text":"這個N15的款式是不是 內政部長是不是要整層的款式都進補所以在這個中間 你要簽名就不像內政部長這樣當然 當他問你說沒有這次的費用 本省也可以接受"},{"start":231.806,"end":239.134,"text":"但是這種東西是隨時會爆發的東西隨時會有地雷火爆 陰暴的危險你沒有這樣做是你建議內政部長找台台的團隊 立法院的團隊那時候內政部長他自己去找 你有參與嗎"},{"start":251.773,"end":265.806,"text":"一開始的人 我先跟委員報告七個月以來 我們成立以後我們有專家的會議 還有一個非常重要的跨部會的會議那在跨部會的會議裡面 你有在先過去給裁判中心的職位說要求的"},{"start":267.133,"end":291.206,"text":"做這個動作沒有啦那是勞保長 那時候紀委官的時候他覺得說這應該要找更多的專家來討論進展也有夠 我跟你說他的紀委官是8月12日升職一半之後還被解除之後第四次升職是高危二三的事情啦所以8月12日到他9月13日去打這通電話你有做成這個會議記錄的關係拜託紀委中心的紀委官去做這個事情沒有啦我跟委員報告"},{"start":297.25,"end":324.263,"text":"我們要擺個實例 如果有台灣料理喔那時候 老支會官買了老部長也一直關心這個議題所以我們也有在討論 不是說因為你說沒有這時的危險 當機時的時空 北京本身也同意嘛清華萬棟 到高清棟這個中間的特區過程中你們有用 雷震波就是這個採訪中心的支會 中心的支會官有提出這個建議嗎啦"},{"start":326.224,"end":336.374,"text":"我向委員報告 我們提出來也是由專家來評估的你請到一個專家楊交大的團隊他過去給你的報告他的評估報告從7月26號持續的一直在調整所以他的報告跟你說的就是沒有這些危險"},{"start":345.953,"end":359.74,"text":"他們是針對整個... 啊 內政部踢到這裡 報告都要一天一天在一天的時間裡面去做那個決定 下那個命令今天 我們坦白說 結論來說是救很多人啦 不管是往生去這裡的人 請不得我不是在對救這些人啦 不會被我按嘛你這無關啦 沒要擔責 裡面是無關的領域啊嘛這14 20個耶 今天阿姨沒下那個命令啦 有可能兩爸阿姨想喔"},{"start":376.636,"end":381.18,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 整個的防災過程中齁是中央 地方都要通力合作的然後各有他的權責我只要要通力合作啦我現在在說人家有合作問題在你那裡漏屍淋漓 你還聽不聽"},{"start":404.346,"end":415.155,"text":"你那個詳細 現在針對協議員的問題喔你用書面詳細打給他你把事情放到心肝來嘛這是一個正在這裡的態度呢你是要打人家所有的事務官呢大家覺得沒用沒用啦那白天 白天就有人護航啊不是這樣嗎"},{"start":428.714,"end":453.759,"text":"這樣就表示未來這個事情有可能會發生在行政團隊裡面他有一個跨部會的聯繫匯報這個聯繫匯報裡面各部會都有參加你把聯繫匯報裡面你有提出這個建議我看書面提出來這個不是提出一個正式的建議是在要討論的時候劉部長覺得說應該再找其他的專家來一起來那這個大家都可以同意的時間的關係你寫一個報告給消委員了解好不好針對他的問題好不好 消委員謝謝"},{"start":458.697,"end":460.683,"text":"好 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犯罪的情境較輕微的這些案件的替代方案其實有沒有機會就是我們一直想了很多的一個勞動力的一個替代的方式那在近期"},{"start":47.495,"end":75.872,"text":"我想那個中委員剛提出了很多就是說不管是那個初一期滿兩年還是一年這有很多的一個數據在告訴我們就是說基本上其實兩年以上他可能就是會得到很好的一個教誨那我在這裡是想特別請教署長在這一個過程裡頭你認為就是說勞動力的一個替代方案哪一種你覺得成效是最好的"},{"start":77.577,"end":100.994,"text":"勞動力的替代方案更為報告這個是要在前端在蔣德關執業執行的時候的話他可以利用社會勞動的情形來當一個替代方案把這些送行者不用進到我們蔣經關裡面來執行因為進到蔣經關執行是他真的是沒有達到給他機會的嚇阻效果"},{"start":102.355,"end":111,"text":"認為說需要進到財政機關才進到財政機關不然的話如果可以再留在社會上利用社會勞動他還可以照顧他的家庭還可以維持他的工作那是最好的一個制度"},{"start":111.485,"end":139.368,"text":"所以你認為就是說留在社會上就是說留在家庭裡頭不一定要進到監獄裡頭來是 一個輕刑犯可以給他這樣的機會我們辦公室長期都有一個假釋案件的一個申請那也謝謝就是說反正每一次這種機率都很低那個假釋成功我們去關說不是關說就是說我們去關心我們去關心都非常的低那後來幾次下來以後我問你們的國會聯絡人"},{"start":140.549,"end":162.55,"text":"我問他說為什麼是不是因為我們不是本委員會的所以這個假釋的案件就是我們的成功率基本上會比較低他告訴我們說不是也不是這個樣子那事實上就是說其實他們不希望就是說假釋的案子因為現在有很多假釋的案子如果是在監獄裡頭的話"},{"start":165.256,"end":171.745,"text":"就是出來 就是再換的這種機率非常的高是不是有這樣的一個論述呢"},{"start":172.723,"end":197.03,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛的話那個莊委員也有提出一個數據兩年內的再販率那是國際學術認可的一個再販率情形因為超過兩年以上的話它牽涉因素很多那兩年之內的話是它離開建所之後的話這個比較能夠信賴的時間那我們現在再販率都已經降低了從23降到18我想說我們投入很多心力下去這個效果應該是有顯現出來的"},{"start":198.99,"end":218.196,"text":"這個可以跟委員報告自己說假釋的話它是經過一個委員制的委員制的大家來投票認定說有沒有達到這個遷回的時局就是因為這個委員制有很多專家寫者那反而少掉了就是說我們建議的就是我們自己本身的這些同仁"},{"start":219.056,"end":240.926,"text":"那事實上就是說我們聽到的一個信息就是說這個會跟基本上落差比較大因為我們都是用數學問題然後用很多標示橫式的一個題目譬如說他再患的機率有多少他是因為什麼樣他是毒品的他是性侵的怎麼樣怎麼樣的一個那個罪行犯罪然後下去算分數"},{"start":241.906,"end":254.714,"text":"那相對的就是說在監獄裡頭其實有很多人看到了他在服刑的這段期間他所表現出來的一個態度那如果你沒有讓這個監獄的這些從業人員他們有參與的話會不會少掉了一塊比較客觀的一個參考謝謝委員的一個提問"},{"start":264.264,"end":283.643,"text":"的一個提醒其實的話在他寫的假設報告表裡面就有那個第一線人員他的評語在裡面只是說來自我們外聘的委員的話他會用更客觀的更專業來看待這樣的一個犯罪的個案所以說是我們把內外的意見都綜合一起來評判的"},{"start":283.863,"end":310.543,"text":"署長我請教你一個受刑人抄一份心經可以抵幾天的刑期沒有這樣的只是他一個表現而已沒有抵什麼的那幾天的一個參考的刑期沒有跟委員包括沒有這樣的可以抵的那你到台南看守所去走一下是是是到台南看守所去走一下那或許他是個人教會師的一個口頭在真正的我們的規定上沒有這樣的一個規定好"},{"start":311.431,"end":337.26,"text":"沒有沒有這樣規定可是我還是希望你去了解一下那再一個就是說最後一個請教更生人保護協會那我們知道就是說這個協會存在了很長的一段時間了那對社會的一個就是說這些那個更生人的一個教化我希望就是說你可以給我這一個就是近期的這一年的一個報告會後給我好不好更生人的教化對"},{"start":338.957,"end":351.929,"text":"是 請委員是在你說的好不好嘛 跟深層保護協會耕保協會的 對這是你的那個業務嗎耕保不是喔 那就請部長提供給我 好不好好 部長你請坐 因為剛我要進來那個國會聯絡人就跟我講說不要問我們補中啦 問輸中啦好 謝謝 謝謝謝謝委員 是 謝謝賴委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1220,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（12時7分）謝謝主席，有請矯正署署長。部長，你先休息一下，中場再上。"],["主席：麻煩署長。"],["林署長憲銘：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，我延續莊委員說的，矯正無用論充斥在這個社會上，但這對大家是不公平的，矯正署長期投注了很多心力。對於刑期較短者、犯罪情境較輕微者，這些案件的替代方案有沒有機會提出？我們想了很多勞動力的替代方式。剛才莊委員提出很多，近期，不管是出獄期滿兩年或一年，都有很多數據告訴我們，基本上，兩年以上就可能得到很好的教誨。我則是想特別請教署長，在這個過程裡，你認為在勞動力的替代方案中，哪一種是成效最好的？"],["林署長憲銘：勞動力的替代方案？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["林署長憲銘：跟委員報告，這是在前端、檢察官指揮執行的時候，可以利用社會勞動當替代方案，讓這些受刑人不用進到矯正機關裡面執行。因為進到矯正機關執行者是代表他真的沒有達到給他機會的嚇阻效果、我們認為需要進入矯正機關者才會進入矯正機關，不然，如果可以再留在社會上，利用社會勞動，他還可以照顧他的家庭、還可以維持他的工作，那是最好的制度。"],["賴委員惠員：所以你認為若能留在社會上，也就是留在家庭裡，不一定要進入監獄？"],["林署長憲銘：是，因為對輕刑犯可以給予這樣的機會。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，我們辦公室長期都有假釋案件的申請，反正每一次核准機率都很低，假釋成功的機率經過我們去關心後，仍然都非常低。幾次下來，我問你們的國會聯絡人為什麼、是不是因為我不是本委員會的委員，所以假釋案件成功率基本上會比較低？他告訴我們不是這個樣子，事實上，因為現在有很多假釋的案子，從監獄裡出來之後再犯的機率非常高，是不是有這樣的論述呢？"],["林署長憲銘：跟委員報告，剛剛莊委員也提出一項出獄兩年內再犯率的數據，那是國際上、學術認可的再犯率情形，因為超過兩年以上的話，牽涉因素很多，離開監所兩年之內是比較能夠信賴的時間。現在再犯率都已經降低了，從23%降到18%，我想，我們投入很多心力下去，效果應該是有顯現出來的，這點可以跟委員報告。至於假釋是要經過委員制決定，透過委員制，由大家投票認定有沒有達到悛悔的實據。"],["賴委員惠員：就是因為這個委員制有很多專家、學者，反而少掉監獄本身的同仁……"],["林署長憲銘：對，沒辦法完全。"],["賴委員惠員：事實上，我們聽到的訊息就是會跟基本上的情形落差會比較大，因為都是透過數學問題，用很多標準式的題目，譬如說再犯的機率有多少、因為什麼樣的罪名例如毒品、性侵而入獄，藉此計算分數。但相對的，在監獄裡其實有很多人看到他在服刑這段期間所表現出來的態度，如果沒有讓這些監獄從業人員參與的話，會不會少掉一塊比較客觀的參考？"],["林署長憲銘：謝謝委員的提醒。其實在假釋報告表裡面就有第一線人員的評語，只是外聘委員會更客觀、更專業地看待這樣的犯罪個案，所以我們是把內外的意見綜合、一起評判的，都有。"],["賴委員惠員：署長，我請教你，一個受刑人抄一份心經可以抵幾天刑期？"],["林署長憲銘：沒有這樣的，這只是他的一種表現而已，沒有抵什麼。"],["賴委員惠員：那是否涉及幾天的參考刑期？"],["林署長憲銘：跟委員報告，沒有可以這樣抵的。"],["賴委員惠員：那你到臺南看守所走一下。"],["林署長憲銘：或許那是個人教誨師的口頭意見，但在我們真正的規定上沒有這樣的規定。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有喔？"],["林署長憲銘：沒有這樣規定。"],["賴委員惠員：可是我還是希望你去了解一下。"],["林署長憲銘：是。"],["賴委員惠員：最後一點請教：關於更生人保護協會，我們知道這個協會存在很長一段時間了。針對社會上更生人的教化，我希望你可以給我近期、這一年的報告，會後給我，好不好？"],["林署長憲銘：更生人的教化？"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["林署長憲銘：請問委員，是什麼樣的……"],["賴委員惠員：做得好不好嘛！就是說更生人保護協會……"],["林署長憲銘：更保協會的？"],["賴委員惠員：對，這是你的業務嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：更保不是，而是地檢署的。"],["賴委員惠員：更保不是喔？那就請部長提供給我，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長請坐，因為剛剛我要進來時，國會聯絡人就跟我講「不要問我們部長啦！問署長啦！」。謝謝。"],["林署長憲銘：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","接下來請何欣純委員。何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","接下來請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00001"}}},{"id":"163915","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163915","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0298e8af5febf1e530a8af512ffeae19c66f4e64ae755f07d563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:05:49 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其實回應一下不在即投票我覺得還是要再特別強調"},{"start":11.187,"end":39.609,"text":"不管是美國還是韓國多次在對台灣的這種投票的制度都是非常肯定的是在籍或不在籍另外一個我們要考量的就是說比方說在這地方選舉縣市首長選舉 村里長選舉他本身居住在此地在這邊投票因為跟他的生活跟他的社區直接相關所以我認為在籍投票才是我們可以努力的方向這也是最符合現在公平性也可以減少爭議性的方式"},{"start":40.009,"end":64.571,"text":"因為我們可以看到基本上很多民主國家每一次在不管是電子投票也好或者是不管是郵寄投票等等不在籍的方式總是會有很多社會的紛爭紛擾如果連台灣這種一票票在本地在籍的狀況之下都還會有人來質疑其公平性的話那何況如果是不在籍的話我不知道說未來會不會有更多的這種爭議所以"},{"start":66.272,"end":87.231,"text":"基於國家安全的理由基於人民主權的理由那還有各種的這種行政上面的這些程序我們都認為說現階段再集投票還是比較符合全國的最大利益我必須要再回答另外一個我可能要再請主委要我從上個會議一直講到現在就是在錯假亂訊息的混淆"},{"start":89.337,"end":115.904,"text":"這個是2024年的時候某一個非執政黨的選舉人故意混淆他把民主進步黨跟他的總統跟副總統候選人全部放在一個然後來去暗示說這個是由執政黨所支持的候選人這個東西我已經不止一次跟您說了除了在南部各縣市從高雄到嘉義到台南都有類似的狀況"},{"start":117.128,"end":144.954,"text":"那我就更不用把俄羅斯的一個相關他們在不公平選舉舞弊的這個狀況出來他們也是用同樣的方式就是假冒是民主黨民主陣營的這個就是非普丁陣營的這個候選人然後讓他暗示說他是支持的所以就是說這種混淆的狀況其實已經不僅僅傷害到台灣的民主政治它也傷害到每一個政黨因為我注意到除了傷害到執政黨之外在最近的一些選舉彼此之間都有類似的狀況"},{"start":145.834,"end":168.715,"text":"所以為了最大的公平性我一直希望您能夠來好好的去思考單一選區如果該黨的主席已經支持該黨的候選人了他就沒有可能去支持其他政黨的候選人國民黨也是民進黨也是因為這是單一選區任何其他不管是他是用無黨籍的身份來去假冒或者是暗示這樣的支持的那必須要有所防治"},{"start":169.395,"end":188.605,"text":"所以我上次在提出修法的時候我就說去年五月我提出修法的時候我說未經政黨同意非政黨推薦者不得使用該政黨負責人的姓名頭像及政黨標章是因為過去我們從民主化到現在總是會有這樣子的狀況出現所以我們希望去修法去來避免這樣的狀況"},{"start":189.765,"end":210.485,"text":"這不是發生在執政黨而有在對在野黨也有有一些為了在執政黨弱勢的選區可能會在野黨用這樣的方式有些在在野黨優勢的選區可能執政黨用這樣的方式這其實是會傷害到這個公平性的也就是說過去這個政黨不是打上真正的對決而是派出第三個候選人去削弱他主要政黨的這個候選人"},{"start":212.829,"end":240.948,"text":"我們在優勢區或者是我們在弱勢區都會有類似的狀況出現所以我們講的是一個制度的公平性而不是針對任何一個政黨這個我認為說我們必須要好好的檢討因為特別是在多席次的選舉這種混淆的狀況就更加明顯那這不會只傷害到民進黨也可能會傷害到國民黨因為我們都有遇過類似這樣子的問題那甚至我要講有一次在這種標誌上面的規定可不可以來去"},{"start":242.501,"end":261.414,"text":"學習一下日本的就是說有定期的這個時間點定期的宣傳點那這樣對大家來講都可以減低我們的選舉成本這是一個可以考量的方式甚至有一次在地方在補選的時候那個時候他們說山區選二號 海區選一號這樣的步調出來但是那一次山區根本沒有選舉"},{"start":262.615,"end":289.415,"text":"你懂我意思嗎就是各種混淆的狀況都會出現所以我們在標誌上推薦人上面我們必須要更加的公平所以我從去年5月然後你說你會提出一個說沒有修法沒關係你會提出一個相關的辦法在行政上面來制止這樣子的這種混亂選舉或者是提供錯假亂訊息資訊的狀況出現但是目前為止我還沒有拿到相關的辦法從去年5月到現在是不是請主委簡單回應一下"},{"start":289.847,"end":311.693,"text":"好謝謝委員繼續關心這樣一個問題的確這是一個不當的行使他的這個言論自由的權利不當的行使因此呢在法律上予以限制禁止甚至是處罰我認為是有必要的但是不管怎麼樣這個是必須要經過立法"},{"start":312.173,"end":327.793,"text":"因为它虽然是不当的自由的行使但是它毕竟还是属于言论自由的一个范畴所以委员提出的法律的修正案这个方向我们认为是正确的这是第一点"},{"start":328.594,"end":351.436,"text":"第二点就是说即使这个法律还没有通过了在实务上高雄高分院已经有过一个相似的一个案例就是说你这种情形如果足以影响到选举的公正性的话那还是可以适用选罢法104条的规定来予以处罚"},{"start":352.348,"end":378.91,"text":"謝謝因為其實這是兩大政黨都會遇到的問題因為通常會做這種的就是要影響兩大政黨的所以我在這邊也是我認為這是跨黨派的一個共識就是公平性那既然主委認為說我們可以朝修法方面去年五月的時候你是說可以從執行方式那我們就會提出相關的建議給你們去看你們可不可以提出相關院版的或者是由我們自己的立法委員來去提出來可是這件事情已經出現了多次"},{"start":379.691,"end":389.977,"text":"在我們的選舉出現過建市首長的選舉市議員的選舉 村長的選舉到公投都會出現類似這樣的狀況我們不要這樣混淆好不好公平 當當真正的決戰"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時6分）我們請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，你好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。先回應一下不在籍投票的問題，我覺得還是再特別強調，不管是美國還是韓國，多次對臺灣的投票制度都是非常肯定的，在籍或不在籍，另外一個我們要考量的就是說，比方說地方選舉，包括縣市首長選舉、村里長選舉，他本身居住在此地，也在這邊投票，因為跟他的生活跟他的社區直接相關，所以我認為在籍投票才是我們可以努力的方向，這也是現在最符合公平性並且可以減少爭議性的方式。因為我們可以看到，基本上很多民主國家，不管是電子投票或者是郵寄投票等等不在籍的方式，總是會有很多社會的紛爭、紛擾。如果連臺灣這種一票一票在本地在籍的狀況之下都還會有人質疑其公平性的話，更何況是不在籍投票，我不知道未來會不會有更多的爭議。所以基於國家安全的理由，基於人民主權的理由，還有各種行政上面的程序，我們都認為現階段在籍投票還是比較符合全國的最大利益。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：我必須要再提到另外一個部分，我從上個會期一直講到現在，就是有關錯假亂訊息的混淆。螢幕上的這個是在2024年的時候，某一個非執政黨的選舉人故意混淆的文宣，他把民主進步黨、總統副總統候選人跟他自己全部放在同一張文宣上，然後暗示這一位是執政黨所支持的候選人。這個東西我已經不只一次跟您說了，在南部各縣市，從高雄到臺南、嘉義都有類似的狀況，我就更不用把俄羅斯的一個不公平選舉舞弊的狀況提出來，他們也是用同樣的方式，就是假冒是民主黨、民主陣營（非普丁陣營）的候選人，然後暗示說他是支持的。這種混淆的狀況其實已經不僅僅傷害到臺灣的民主政治，也傷害到每一個政黨，因為我注意到發現除了傷害到執政黨之外，在最近的一些選舉，彼此之間都有類似的狀況。所以為了最大的公平性，我一直希望您能夠好好的去思考，在單一選區，如果該黨主席已經支持該黨的候選人了，他就沒有可能去支持其他政黨的候選人嘛！國民黨也是，民進黨也是嘛，因為這是單一選區嘛！任何其他人，不管是用無黨籍的身分去假冒或者是暗示有這樣支持的，必須要有所防制啊！","所以我在去年5月提出修法，我提案的修正文字是「非政黨推薦候選人未經政黨授權不得在宣傳品上使用政黨負責人頭像、政黨負責人姓名與政黨標章」，因為過去我們從民主化到現在總是會有這樣子的狀況出現，所以我們希望透過修法去避免這樣的狀況，這不是發生在執政黨而已，在野黨也有啊，有些在執政黨弱勢的選區可能會在野黨用這樣的方式，有些在在野黨優勢的選區，可能執政黨用這樣的方式，這其實是會傷害到公平性的。也就是說，過去這個政黨不是堂堂正正的對決，而是派出第三個候選人去削弱他主要政黨的候選人，這在我們的優勢區或者是我們的弱勢區都會有類似的狀況出現，所以我們講的是一個制度的公平性，而不是針對任何一個政黨，這個我認為我們必須要好好的檢討，特別是在多席次的選舉區，這種混淆的狀況就更加明顯了，這不會只傷害到民進黨，也可能會傷害到國民黨，因為我們都有遇過類似這樣子的問題。對於這種標誌上面的規定，可不可以去學習一下日本？就是有定期的時間點、定期的宣傳點，這樣對大家來講，都可以減低我們的選舉成本，這是一個可以考量的方式。","甚至有一次地方在補選的時候，那個時候他們說山區選2號、海區選1號，有這樣的布條出來，但是那一次山區根本沒有選舉，你懂我的意思嗎？就是各種混淆的狀況都會出現，所以我們在標誌上、在推薦人上面，我們必須要更加的公平。我從去年5月提案，然後您說您會提出一個相關的辦法，在行政上面來制止這種混亂選舉或者是提供錯假亂訊息資訊的狀況出現，但是到目前為止，我還沒有拿到相關的辦法，從去年5月到現在，是不是請主委簡單回應一下？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員繼續關心這樣的問題。的確，這是一個不當行使言論自由權利的情形，是不當的行使，因此在法律上予以限制、禁止甚至是處罰，我認為是有必要的，但是不管怎麼樣，這個必須要經過立法，因為他雖然是不當的言論自由的行使，但是這畢竟還是屬於言論自由的範疇，所以委員提出的法律修正案，這個方向我們認為是正確的，這是第一點。","第二點，即使這個法律還沒有通過，在實務上，高雄高分院已經有過一個相似的案例，就是這種情形如果足以影響到選舉的公正性，還是可以適用選罷法第一百零四條的規定來予以處罰。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。其實這是兩大政黨都會遇到的問題，因為通常會做這種行為就是要影響兩大政黨的，所以我認為這是跨黨派的一個共識，就是公平性，既然主委認為我們可以朝修法方面，去年5月的時候你是說可以從執行方式來做，我們就會提出相關的建議給你們，看你們可不可以提出院版的修正案，或者是由立法委員自己去提出。可是這件事情已經出現多次，在我們的選舉出現過，縣市首長的選舉、市議員的選舉、村長的選舉到公投都會出現類似這樣的狀況，我們不要這樣混淆，好不好？公平、堂堂正正的決戰。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：感謝陳冠廷委員。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵。","賴惠員、賴惠員、賴惠員。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純。","林德福、林德福、林德福。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員質詢。不好意思，讓你等這麼久。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163914","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163914","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff00178f3d1725b474a2b1f00580874b15566f4e64ae755f07db99eda9eaf2fc55b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"12:01:27 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請國防部顧部長是 洛元好"},{"start":14.592,"end":34.521,"text":"部長好部長我們這次的特別預算強化韌性有編列了1500億那其中有大約是一半預算是用在提升資通作業環境跟這個設備那當然包括了這個居民資通作業環境韌性跟設備效能提升計劃還有指管系統韌性集資"},{"start":35.962,"end":52.168,"text":"資安防護擴充計畫等五大計畫這些計畫其實都涉及了資安防護的強化需要有足夠的資安專職人員來執行所以我想請教部長我們國境現有的資安人員是否能夠來做支持"},{"start":55.394,"end":81.596,"text":"委員能不能再說一遍您剛剛是說資安的人才是資安的專職人才因為現在我們已經編列了1500億作為強化韌性我們有一半的預算都是用在提升資通作業環境跟設備還有資通安全的部分所以我想請教目前以我們國軍的資安人力的話我們有沒有辦法來支持跟應付"},{"start":82.476,"end":111.436,"text":"我們國防部有另辦一個叫做國軍通往店的發展的策略就針對這個人才的培育裝備的建置有一個明確的規劃那資安能力的這個培育也參考各國的做法來建立一個相關的機制跟流程所以我們會分成基礎訓練專業訓練跟高階訓練有不同來進行這個相關的這些培育的一些工作"},{"start":112.716,"end":136.052,"text":"OK 那我們所了解就是說像這個公司部門尤其是民間企業資安人才的需求它是不斷的在成長那各個產業它將這個資安人力不足的作為呢這個視為是一個挑戰像國內的整體的企業資安人力呢我們看到是需求成長率是非常的高那我想請教國防部我們要如何跟民間企業來搶人才那"},{"start":137.153,"end":159.238,"text":"我們搶得過企業界嗎想請問因為有沒有擔心說有我們的薪資或是一些福利不如人又哪一些像除了剛剛部長所提到的一些政策之外那還有沒有其他的誘因來吸引這個人才的招人請問我想這個可以分兩部分一部分就是家籍的部分"},{"start":159.838,"end":180.375,"text":"加急的部分一部分是我們進行的培育的部分因為在國軍的話他從事相關的這些培育我們是有一個定期然後一個週延的一個規劃然後來逐步的來培育他有一直有這樣的一個專業技能存在那另外我們也有"},{"start":180.695,"end":200.11,"text":"網路站的佳績在114年6月也把它做一個提升那這樣子的一個網路站的一個佳績具體的方向數字大概就是說我們有分成不同的級別包括專精二級 專精一級精英二級跟精英一級還有專家級等等"},{"start":200.931,"end":216.229,"text":"那當然不可諱言的民間的這個企業的資安人才的一個需求一定會衝擊到我們國軍在這部分的一個人才的招募但國軍的部分當然他就是說他"},{"start":218.311,"end":235.358,"text":"有一定的穩定我們再加上網路上加擠另外我們有一個比較系統性的栽培的話培養我們的一定的量人我們希望我們都能夠維護住這樣子的人才"},{"start":236.582,"end":252.674,"text":"所以部長您覺得說像目前我們所施行的這些政策其實就是一些很大的比如說您剛才講到的加擠然後當然可能工作也比較穩定那我們可能還有系統性的栽培所以像這個我們都是優於企業的一個方針嗎我們覺得這樣子就是一個誘因嗎我們應該是說國防部在我們可以"},{"start":263.274,"end":280.281,"text":"資源可以因應的情況之下我們做最大的努力來吸引住這些人才然後來培育這些人才然後讓這些人才能夠被我們長留久用那還有一點我想請教就是我之前看到審計部在113年總決勝的審核報告裡面他有提到好幾個主管機關"},{"start":287.043,"end":304.848,"text":"他們這個資安專職人員其實有很多是沒有取得資安專業的這個證照甚至未取得職能訓練證書就像這個法務部衛福部教育部都有被點名那像我們國防部我們國防部有這樣子的問題嗎還是說我們會更加的嚴格更加的嚴謹"},{"start":306.289,"end":319.421,"text":"為取得這個資安專業證照的這個人數到目前為止的話我們這邊有這種狀況嗎還是說來當國防部的這個資安專職人員你就必須一定要有證照我目前是怎樣的一個狀況"},{"start":320.829,"end":338.143,"text":"我們會鼓勵他們盡量去取得證照因為取得一個證照之後他的這個待遇會相對來講應該是會比較好所以我們會鼓勵他們盡量去是鼓勵可是沒有強制要求是不是因為他要能夠"},{"start":339.344,"end":354.523,"text":"增加他自己所獲得的待遇他就必須要去維持住這樣的證照之外他還要能夠再提升他的證照的等級我想我們是以提供誘因的方式來讓他能夠維持住這樣的一個資安能力"},{"start":355.478,"end":378.868,"text":"OK 因為時間關係主席已經站起來了然後後續還有很多的這個問題我們之後再繼續討論好 以上謝謝剛剛委員指教的是有其實維護人才確實都是一個挑戰但我們應該要盡最大的努力那詳細的部分如果委員有需要推行我們再跟委員再做溝通OK 好 謝謝部長好 以上謝謝好 謝謝羅美玲委員好 部長請回那接下來我們請謝榮介委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1034,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（12時1分）謝謝主席，有請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請國防部顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，這次特別預算針對強化韌性編列了1,500億元，其中大約有一半預算用在提升資通作業環境跟設備，當然包括軍民資通作業環境韌性與設備效能提升計畫，還有指管系統韌性及資安防護擴充計畫等五大計畫。這些計畫其實都涉及資安防護的強化，需要有足夠的資安專職人員執行，所以我想請教部長，國軍現有資安人員是否能夠支持？"],["顧部長立雄：委員能不能再說一遍？您剛剛是說資安人才？"],["羅委員美玲：是資安的專職人才。因為現在已經編列了1,500億元作為強化韌性預算，而有一半預算都用在提升資通作業環境跟設備還有資通安全的部分，所以我想請教，以目前國軍的資安人力，我們有沒有辦法支持跟應付，請問部長？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部另頒一項國軍通網電的發展策略，就針對人才的培育、裝備的建置有明確的規劃，針對資安人力的培育，也參考各國的做法建立相關機制跟流程。所以我們會分成基礎訓練、專業訓練跟高階訓練，有不同方式進行相關的培育工作。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。但就我們所了解，像是公私部門，尤其是民間企業，對資安人才的需求不斷地在成長，各產業都將資安人力不足視為挑戰，像是國內整體的企業資安人力，我們看到需求成長率非常地高。那麼我想請教國防部，你們要如何跟民間企業搶人才？搶得過企業界嗎？我想請問，會不會擔心薪資或福利不如人、又有哪一些方法？除了部長剛剛所提到的政策之外，還有沒有其他誘因吸引、招攬人才？"],["顧部長立雄：我想可以分成兩部分，一部分就是加給。"],["羅委員美玲：加給的部分？"],["顧部長立雄：對，另一部分是我們進行培育的部分。以國軍而言，對於從事相關培育，我們有定期、周延的規劃，然後逐步培育，讓他一直有這樣的專業技能存在。另外，我們有網路戰加給，在114年6月也加以提升。這樣的網路戰加給具體方向與數字大概就是分成不同級別，包括專精二級、專精一級、菁英二級跟菁英一級，還有專家級等等。當然，不可諱言的，民間企業對資安人才的需求一定會衝擊到國軍對這部分人才的招募，但國軍當然有一定的穩定性，我們也加上網路戰加給。另外，我們有比較系統性的栽培，培養一定的量能，都是希望能維護住這樣的人才。"],["羅委員美玲：所以部長覺得現在所施行的政策其實就是很大的誘因？譬如說您剛剛講到的加給、當然工作可能也比較穩定，還有系統性的栽培，這些都優於企業的方針嗎？你們覺得這樣就是誘因嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：應該說國防部在資源可以因應的情況之下做最大的努力，吸引住這些人才，然後培育這些人才，讓這些人才能夠被我們長留久用。"],["羅委員美玲：還有一點我想請教，我之前看到審計部在113年總決算審核報告裡提到好幾個主管機關，他們的資安專職人員其實有很多沒有取得資安專業證照，甚至未取得職能訓練證書，像是法務部、衛福部、教育部都被點名。那麼國防部呢？國防部有這樣的問題嗎？還是會更加嚴格、更加嚴謹？關於未取得資安專業證照的人數，到目前為止，這邊有這種狀況嗎？還是要當國防部的資安專職人員就必須、一定要有證照？目前是怎樣的狀況？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會鼓勵他們儘量取得證照，因為取得證照之後，待遇相對來講應該會比較好，所以我們會鼓勵他們儘量取得。"],["羅委員美玲：是鼓勵，可是沒有強制要求，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：因為他如果要增加自己所獲得的待遇，除了必須維持住這樣的證照之外，還要能夠再提升他的證照等級。我想我們是以提供誘因的方式來維持住這樣的資安人力。"],["羅委員美玲：因為時間的關係，主席已經站起來了，後續還有很多問題，我們之後再繼續討論。以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：關於剛剛委員指教的，其實維護人才確實是挑戰，我們當然應該盡最大的努力。對於詳細的部分，如果委員有需要垂詢，我們再跟委員溝通。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝部長。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員，部長請回。","接下來請謝龍介委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163913","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163913","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff03bd51b65a8d7030cb1cbd8f3401de56a66f4e64ae755f07d3b1f0242bc217b355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:55:26 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謝謝謝謝我們召委有請我們法務部正部長好 請部長"},{"start":11.733,"end":36.261,"text":"我們矯正署 矯正署署長也上來一下好不好來 委員好部長好 辛苦我想今天幾個問題又要來就教了這幾天尤其是今天我看到在本會裡面的一些質詢似乎也充斥著好像是這個矯正無用論這個是聽了讓人是很大的一個感慨"},{"start":37.099,"end":55.132,"text":"其實台灣的一個治安就是說到底好還是不好國人當然可以有不同的看法立法院當然有監督的一個職責更是要來督促但是你從2025年你全球這146個國家裡面國家安全的指數評比裡面去看"},{"start":56.004,"end":83.23,"text":"台灣還在世界的第四暴力犯罪跟竊盜的一個比例其實這個比例還算低10萬的居民舉發犯罪從1207起裡面是2.03起的一個兇殺案這當然是在講說我們這個社會的一個治安其實控制的倒不是像外界所講的這樣子但是當然在八月份的時候澳洲這樣的一個智庫的一個統計似乎我們又有一點退步了"},{"start":83.61,"end":86.381,"text":"那這個都值得我們去警惕的一個地方"},{"start":87.165,"end":113.758,"text":"那這一陣子我們看發生了苗栗的一個隨機商人的一個事件外界就開始去質疑就是說我們這個整個矯正制度是不是教化失靈了這個教化到底是不是失靈然後好像又會導出這整個教化是沒有用的那乾脆把這個受刑人去關一輩子我想這是不對的接下來我請部長來看一下就是說其實我們受刑人出獄以後"},{"start":114.718,"end":139.235,"text":"這兩年內裡面的再犯率你從2020年是29%到了2023年是18%從這個數字來看其實代表說82%的壽星人他是這兩年裡面他就沒有再犯了那這個矯正他其實是有用的不是說他沒有用那這個數字其實告訴我們就是說很多的矯正同仁他們的努力不是白費"},{"start":140.427,"end":160.552,"text":"但是因為這個整個個案就去抹殺掉全體的一個付出好像是要把整個教化制度一棒這樣給打死我相信這也不對但接下來我必須要講的就是說我們還是有欠缺的地方你整個形式政策的靈魂就在於說你去矯正教化到最後是讓他去復歸社會而不是單純的只是報復然後切割讓所有的壽星人都完全沒有希望這也不對但是我們要做的地方"},{"start":170.234,"end":194.022,"text":"其實還有很多啦我剛剛也聽到了我們 我相信啦我們這麼美麗的翁小玲召委她擔任召委以後啊在這個會期裡面我們對法務部我相信我們會大力支持你們該有的預算啦翁委員跟我我們都兩個召委都會全力來支持但是該監督的部分我們也必須要去做一個監督你像譬如說本席啊一直在提出這個兩個比較"},{"start":199.072,"end":219.217,"text":"這一些一直在著墨的就是基層同仁這個的新生就是說危險佳績的部分危險佳績的部分你去把它看看我一直在比較就是說現在整個移民署的收容脫逃的移工裡面危險佳績就是9700然後監所第一線管理人員危險津貼是4500當然我也知道已經這個"},{"start":221.645,"end":245.727,"text":"這個整個矯正署這個地方也送出去到行政院直接借戶的部分4500調整到9700第二級是4000調整到7760那間接借戶的為止在3000那部長 我要請教就是說這條也說這麼久了 你現在是前出了安裝你也要給你的監守人員的士氣大家要給他們好 給他們鼓勵一下 現在是今年到"},{"start":247.642,"end":263.647,"text":"這部分修正增加專業佳績以及那個危老的一個佳績危老佳績已經在7月1日已經生效了嘛生效對 已經生效了那我想這個是可以讓我們這麼辛苦的矯正同仁有一個"},{"start":265.731,"end":290.461,"text":"一個鼓勵來圍繞矯正同仁的一個辛勞那的確是在矯正機關他那些的收容人的確都是有不少有暴力傾向的而且暴力的實際的才會在裡面所以我想在整個一個圍繞的一個津貼這的確是我們是給同仁一些的一個鼓勵真的也要給他們打氣而且真的要給他們打氣"},{"start":291.401,"end":315.808,"text":"我要說的是 我們的矯正人員 他就司法最後一哩路的一個守門人他們守的不是只有監獄的鐵門 更是整個社會安全的一個底線讓人冒著風險 這個我是覺得沒有給一點比較合理的待遇這是不對的啦 這個大家一起努力 把他制度建制得更完善但是 人力短缺的問題 我就要請部長你再看看"},{"start":317.168,"end":335.373,"text":"你這個矯正機關的預算緣額跟你實際上的短缺的不少人你看你就減7、8、45人你介護的人力裡面你跟收容人來比較的話是1比10.2你心理社工的部分315跟收容的你看你比說1比197"},{"start":337.413,"end":359.105,"text":"教化人力 這個可能就必須要你特別特別去留意了你跟收容人的比數是1比141啊醫事人員這很難講嘛就是說有時候你還會到介護出來但是呢 你看你這個作業的導師跟作業科的人力裡面你現在還是由介護科管理員去做監任喔這個署長你是不是起來之後應該這個你會大道過戶你提出來 部長會跟你支持 郡馬都會跟你支持"},{"start":365.389,"end":367.112,"text":"貪貪看你的講法你不覺得長期這樣子這個部分你們過去都沒有去處理到嗎"},{"start":373.447,"end":394.84,"text":"是 謝謝委員關心你不可以跟人家謝謝我來看你這個謝謝委員因為的確是我們那個介護人力跟那個角度人力跟收入人力的比例我們是比日本比其他國家高很多我們這邊再來努力我們提出一下剛才那個趙委跟我們提那也謝謝"},{"start":396,"end":423.079,"text":"兩位召委 關心這個 余鳳鑫啦 余鳳鑫那是說得比較老實一點 心肝很好包括所有的 包括剛剛講苗栗的那件隨機殺人我們是很痛心 所以事實上我們在建立的這些的一些的除了介護人力不足 還有社工交流人力這部分我們是不是 我們在提出一些的一些的 增編的一個計畫請委員來支持"},{"start":423.319,"end":425.16,"text":"我看各個政黨 審判沒人要審 司法法制有人想到就是去監獄"},{"start":442.315,"end":470.993,"text":"就都去看手手 把你損了 謝謝趙偉的一個關心因為這個監獄的確有很多我們需要可以在這盡盡的地方尤其是人力跟預算這部分犯罪後 受到法律的制裁硬爆 合理啦但問題這些都是我們的國民他只是穿著球衣啦要怎麼管理這裡你監守這裡沒有給他相對的一個武器的話這不行啦 否則光一個突發的個案"},{"start":472.592,"end":495.398,"text":"把整個這個矯正的一個制度把它打死掉這是不對的啦這是不對的啦但是呢我也必須要再提醒就是說我們一直在講說廢除掉整個累進儲育的一個制度去納入監獄行刑法的一個做準備這個再來的重擔這新的署長就在你的手上你說現行的累進儲育碰到哪些問題你們很清楚嗎現在差不多要叫回師"},{"start":496.278,"end":513.425,"text":"教輔導師那些 現在大家都變算數的老師你要納入 尤其是 我一直在講說剛入監的這些受刑人 他最需要支持跟教化但是現在你的分所變最多你現在寒假算最多其實整個黃金時機都錯失掉了這個整個從思維上都要去做一個改變但是 我要提出幾個問題"},{"start":522.188,"end":546.276,"text":"你現在如果廢除掉以後 那你把他納入整個監獄刑刑法裡面你現在新制跟舊制如何要銜接我們手臂怎麼算啦 對那個壽星人他最重要的第二樣就是說 你要升階跟降級 你也要弄得清楚你到底是要用行政命令 還是要定定一個辦法這個都要未雨綢繆啦 人家你沒搞好 我能幫你支持嘛"},{"start":546.596,"end":548.177,"text":"我們真的是會給你支持謝謝委員好不好那你這個考核標準如何去做一個統一因為現在每一個單位你的評分都不一樣你未來如何去確保整個公平"},{"start":556.482,"end":584.004,"text":"那對整個監獄裡面的求情的一個穩定跟受刑人他的一個權益這個署長你必須要去想清楚會 會 會好不好 感謝委員 會有時候沒有你跟他會會啊沒有沒有 現在的話我們把雷金主義改為階段性處理以前雷金主義是要打分數的打得很細那結果反而給教委是帶來一個困擾每個東西剛剛委員也提到變成數學老師可是現在我們改為階段處理很清楚的我們把4321階段用那心情來切割"},{"start":585.285,"end":588.557,"text":"在市集的話它行其實是三分之一才能進到"},{"start":589.831,"end":591.531,"text":"我們這個社會要發生一個比較突發的案件對求情都會有所影響"},{"start":618.814,"end":621.015,"text":"你還當真以為你送到監獄裡面去然後把他叫化出來以後他出來就變溫良 公賤 浪你想想這樣吧 沒關係 說那些人嘛立法院裡面壞人就一大堆啦講話就變騙子啦 什麼那個道德"},{"start":637.899,"end":644.802,"text":"跟這個整個監獄裡面的受刑人來比我看都未能相比你但只是說送到監獄裡面那犯了法那本來就要應報嘛可是呢在這個應報裡面的這個過程裡面的第一線的執行人你們的同仁他當然會比較辛苦那可是呢我們也必須要讓受刑人去看到他的未來的一個希望啦這個很困難啦常常因為個案裡面社會的情緒是浮動的講道理也講不清啦"},{"start":666.05,"end":674.675,"text":"台灣的社會以現在來看的話那個整個社會還算是穩定的我們不能因為個案去說 喔這台灣地安賣到這就行賣 賣法務部長你的責任啊"},{"start":678.601,"end":707.688,"text":"那你就要宣誓啊 任何重大的一個犯罪你就必須要很嚴正的去做一個宣誓啊但是呢 這一個整個矯正的一個後半段這一塊你還是要做好啊 不是說發生一個事情後後面要去跟人家說 派人或是人家跟人家死這個想法也都不對啦 好不好那該缺人手的部分啦 該去把整個制度面去建置完成的司法法治委員會是一個鎖理的地方啦 尤其是翁召維啦 好不好"},{"start":708.269,"end":709.277,"text":"好 谢谢好 谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時55分）謝謝召委，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：矯正署署長也上來一下，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長好，辛苦了。今天有幾個問題就教。這幾天，尤其是今天，本席看到本會的一些質詢似乎充斥著矯正無用論，讓人聽了很感慨。臺灣的治安到底好還是不好？國人當然可以有不同看法，立法院也有監督的職責，而且更要督促。但是從2025年全球146個國家的國家安全指數評比來看，臺灣排在世界第四名，暴力犯罪和竊盜比例還算低，每10萬人僅發生1,207起犯罪，其中只有2.3起凶殺案，這當然是指我們社會治安的控制程度不像外界說的這樣。","但是8月份的時候，根據澳洲一個智庫的統計，我們似乎又有一點退步，這都是值得我們警惕的地方。這陣子發生苗栗的隨機傷人事件，外界都開始質疑我們的矯正制度是不是教化失靈。教化到底是不是失靈？接著好像又導出教化是沒有用的，乾脆把受刑人關一輩子的結論。本席認為這是不對的。接下來本席要請部長看一下，受刑人出獄以後兩年內的再犯率，2020年是29%，到了2023年是18%，從這個數字來看，代表82%的受刑人兩年內沒有再犯，所以這個矯正其實是有用的，並不是沒有用。","這個數字也告訴我們，很多矯正同仁的努力並沒有白費，但是因為這個個案就抹殺全體的付出，好像要把整個教化制度一棒打死，本席相信這也不對啦！但接下來本席必須說的是，我們還是有欠缺的地方，整個刑事政策的靈魂就在於矯正教化之後，最後是讓他復歸社會，而不是單純只是報復、切割，讓所有受刑人完全沒有希望，因為這樣也不對，但是我們要做的其實還有很多。","本席剛剛也聽到了，本席相信這麼美麗的翁曉玲召委擔任召委以後，這個會期對法務部會大力支持，你們該有的預算，翁委員和本席兩個召委都會全力支持，但是該監督的部分，我們也必須監督。例如本席提出的兩個議題，之前一直著墨這個部分，這也是基層同仁的心聲，就是危險加給。關於危險加給，你可以去看看，我一直在比較嘛！現在移民署收容脫逃移工，危險加給是9,700元，但監所第一線管理人員的危險津貼是4,500元。","當然，本席也知道矯正署的方案已經送到行政院，戒護的部分從4,500元調整到9,700元，第二級是4,000元調整到7,760元，間接戒護維持在3,000元。部長，本席要請教的是，因為這件事情我們說了很久，你們現在爭取得如何？有沒有好消息？為了監所人員的士氣，大家應該要好好鼓勵一下他們。現在進行到哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是修正增加專業加給以及危勞加給，危勞加給7月1日已經生效了嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分可以給我們辛苦的矯正同仁一個鼓勵，慰勞矯正同仁的辛勞。在矯正機關的收容人，的確不少有暴力傾向，而且是有暴力實際案例的才會在裡面，所以給予危勞津貼的確能夠給同仁一些鼓勵。"],["莊委員瑞雄：真的要給他們打氣啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：真的要給他們打氣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：本席要說的是，矯正人員是司法最後一哩路的守門人，他們守的不只是監獄的鐵門，更是整個社會安全的底線。他們冒著風險，本席覺得如果沒有比較合理的待遇是不對的，這個部分也需要大家一起努力，把制度建置得更完善。但是人力短缺的問題，本席也要請部長再看一下，因為矯正機關的預算員額和實際員額相比，短缺不少人，你們就少了745人。","戒護人力和收容人比是1比10.2，心理社工的部分是315人，和收容人的比例是1比197。至於教化人力，這個部分就需要你特別留意了，因為和收容人的比例是1比141。另外是醫事人員，這部分很難說，因為有時候會戒護就醫。但是你看作業導師和作業科人力，現在還是由戒護科管理員兼任。署長，你上任之後針對這個部分應該要大刀闊斧改革，只要你拿出方案，部長會支持你，我們也都會支持。"],["林署長憲銘：謝謝委員關心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：談談你的想法。你是不是覺得長期以來都是這樣？因為你是由副轉正，這個部分你們過去都沒有處理嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：是，謝謝委員關心。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不能只說謝謝，本席想知道你會怎麼做。"],["林署長憲銘：我們會提數據給部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。的確，我們的戒護人力、矯正人力和收容人的比例，是比日本或其他國家高很多，這部分會再努力，也會提出計畫，剛才召委向我們提過，也謝謝兩位召委關心矯正人力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你放心啦！翁召委只是說話比較大聲而已，其實心地很好，一定會支持你們。"],["鄭部長銘謙：包括剛才說的苗栗那件隨機殺人案，我們是很痛心，所以監獄這些措施，除了戒護人力不足，還有社工、教化人力這個部分，我們是不是再提出一些增編計畫？也請委員支持。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一定會支持，但是這個部分要做好，因為這個部分長期都沒有讓它更完善嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的矯正同仁真的很可憐、很辛苦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然。所以這就要看你們的努力啦！你們要拿出計畫，我們會支持。這個會期各政黨都是審到無案可審，司法及法制委員會想到的就是監獄的部分，所以都到看守所考察。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝召委的關心。監獄的確有很多可以再精進的地方，尤其是人力和預算的部分。"],["莊委員瑞雄：犯罪之後受到法律制裁，這是應報，合理啦！但問題是這些都是我們的國民，只是穿著囚衣，所以要怎麼管理這些人？如果沒有給監所的人相對的武器，這樣是不行的。否則光是一個突發的個案，就會一棒把整個矯正制度打死，這是不對的。但是本席也必須再提醒，我們一直在說要廢除累進處遇的制度，為納入監獄行刑法做準備，這個重擔就在新任署長的身上。","現行的累進處遇碰到哪些問題？你們很清楚嘛！現在教誨師、輔導師大概都變成算術老師了。尤其是本席一直在說的，剛入監的受刑人最需要支持和教化，但是現在這些人的分數是最低的，限制也最多，其實這樣黃金時機都錯失了，所以從思維方面都要改變。另外本席要提出幾個問題，現在如果廢除累進處遇，把它納入監獄行刑法，那麼新制和舊制如何銜接？分數要怎麼算？這對受刑人是最重要的。","第二，要升階或降級也要規定清楚，你們到底是要用行政命令？還是要訂定辦法？這些都要未雨綢繆啦！如果人不夠，我們可以支持你們，我們真的會支持，好不好？"],["林署長憲銘：謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是考核標準如何統一？以前每個單位的評分都不一樣，未來如何確保公平？關於監獄裡面的囚情穩定和受刑人的權益，這些署長都必須想清楚。好不好？"],["林署長憲銘：會的，感謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有想過嗎？你只回答「會」，答詢有這麼簡單嗎？只說兩句話就好了。"],["林署長憲銘：現在我們把累進處遇改為階段性處遇，以前累進處遇是要打分數的，而且打得很細，結果反而給教誨師帶來困擾，剛剛委員也提到每個人都變成數學老師。可是現在我們改為階段處遇，很清楚的分為四、三、二、一階段，用他的刑期切割，四級的話，刑期三分之一才能進入三級，六分之一進到二級，再六分之一進到一級。我們用刑期很清楚的切割，然後用他的違規和獎勵做直接的具體考核，只要他違規就要扣點數，延長他晉級的時間，如果有嘉獎就能加點數，這樣就能提早晉級等等，我們有一套評分機制。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們這個社會只要發生一個突發案件，對囚情都會有所影響。的確有些收容人出獄後又犯案，難道你當真以為送到監獄教化，出獄後就會變得溫良恭儉讓？你想太多了吧！即使不是被關的人，光是立法院的壞人就一大堆，說話也很嗆，以道德層面來說，和監獄裡面的受刑人相比，本席認為未必能相比擬。送到監獄是因為他犯了法，本來就要應報嘛！可是在這個應報的過程，你們第一線的執行同仁當然會比較辛苦，但我們也必須讓受刑人看到未來的希望。"],["林署長憲銘：會的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個很困難啦！常常因為個案導致社會的情緒浮動，道理也說不清。以現在來看的話，臺灣社會還算穩定，我們不能因為個案就說臺灣的治安不好到這種程度。治安不好是法務部長的責任，發生任何重大犯罪時，你就必須很嚴正的宣示，但是整個矯正、即後半段這一塊還是要做好啊！不能因為發生一起事件，就讓人認為這些壞人應該被關到死，這些想法也都不對啦！好不好？對於缺人手該把整個制度面建置完成的部分，司法及法制委員會是一個說理的地方，尤其是翁召委。謝謝。"],["林署長憲銘：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我跟莊召委學習。","接下來請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00001"}}},{"id":"163912","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163912","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ee93e882524cb52a41e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07d141228277b1494e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:53:15 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謝謝召會 也要麻煩請我們的陳部長請陳部長部長好 跟部長報告其實原本有規劃在明年大概3月初的時候我想立法院找幾個好朋友去東京一趟你知道什麼事情嗎"},{"start":25.253,"end":38.992,"text":"棒球賽對 世界棒球紀念賽在明年3月我們在東京巨蛋舉辦希望說大家一起去應援把我們東京巨蛋給它塞滿變成我們的主場但是其實現在很多的球迷已經在網路上有在討論明年這個時段的"},{"start":41.816,"end":56.552,"text":"機票已經變得非常的一個高昂了那個包括我們現在我們看的這個是今年底大概是12月底這個聯航大概就6000多那傳統航空的1萬出頭一點點但是我們再看一下明年的3月大概"},{"start":57.392,"end":77.707,"text":"賽事期間3月5號到9號之間其實連航的價格已經也飆到1萬5了那包括傳統航空我們這個華航現在上面顯示的是也是可能1萬7到2萬之間那這個是後面這個華航我們進去搜尋的來回可能已經要3萬5了那當然啦我知道有市場機制那為什麼票價會變得那麼高就是因為這個"},{"start":79.728,"end":101.82,"text":"載客率已經非常高了嘛買票的人非常多了那當然我們後面票價就會變高我想這是次長期次啦那我想喔我想就是請我們交通部幫忙其實大家都想要去當10號隊友那我們交通部可不可以協助我們所有的球迷也或者是協助我們中華隊讓我們的東京巨蛋變成我們中華隊的一個主場讓所有想要去加油的10號"},{"start":103.181,"end":120.476,"text":"隊友都能夠在合理的價格買到機票去東京加油因為現在很多的網友都已經說了東京機票太貴了有人已經考慮從大阪進出你知道嗎從大阪進出然後再搭新幹線去還比較划算那不曉得這部分我們交通部有沒有注意到這個狀況"},{"start":121.917,"end":137.423,"text":"可不可以怎麼樣的來協助包括可能過往都是可能從小飛機變成大飛機那大飛機如果不夠的話那是不是能夠談一下增加航線或者是鄰近的一些譬如說磁城機場來增加航班我們有沒有再做一些相關的討論"},{"start":138.883,"end":154.389,"text":"謝謝委員的建議這個建議真的非常的好明年三月會發生一個台灣人民都非常關注的一個賽事在東京那我們幾個方面要來努力一個方面是我們首先要先保障我們的球員未來要去比賽的球員他有足夠的"},{"start":154.989,"end":179.261,"text":"而且舒適的這個機位可以到達比賽的場地這個部分我們先來確保那第二個部分委員在建議的這個方向是非常的好我們會盡量請民航局來溝通所有的航空公司不只是華航光是靠華航可能也不夠我們所有的國籍的航空公司甚至是如果有機會溝通到外籍的航空公司願意幫忙的話我們希望能夠放大機型增加機位"},{"start":179.861,"end":204.468,"text":"那當然票價的部分其實它是市場機制像委員剛剛所提到的它是一個浮動的機制但如果供給量增加的話多的時候我相信它那個價格會比較平穩一點所以我們朝供給量的部分我們盡量來努力因為棒球是國球所有的民眾大家都很關心那委員今天提醒了我們就現在就開始跟航空公司來溝通這件事情"},{"start":204.548,"end":220.57,"text":"我想這次還有半年的時間明年3月到現在10月到5個月快半年的時間那我們就是現在已經發現這個需求了那我們儘快的提供供給那其實包括中華航空也可以跟中華隊或者是說官方做一個"},{"start":221.451,"end":242.329,"text":"特別的一個這個主題的商品的一個搭配你買機票說不定就有一些可以加購的一些應援商品等等的我覺得不只是提供我們旅遊那個旅客一個好的這個合適的價格跟買得到機票之外那也可以讓我們的航空公司也能夠中華航空多賺一點錢好 以上如果可以跨業合作那更好啦"},{"start":242.629,"end":259.406,"text":"好那就麻煩部長後續再麻煩我們民航局跟航空公司一起加油好謝謝那我接下來是第二題第二題是我們的這個道路平權的問題我想我跟不管是公開還是私底下也都跟我們的部長討論過好幾次那之前我跟部長討論過就是說"},{"start":261.488,"end":279.858,"text":"因為目前我們的這個道路交通安全規則99條之一我們已經有明確的發函給地方政府不能當作這個會設這個進行機車的通則的依據非常感謝交通部很明確的跟地方講你不可以拿這條來講但是其實地方也是會想那不能的話但是你這條規定還是在嗎那是不是"},{"start":280.638,"end":300.011,"text":"以那個暗示還是民視的方式告訴大家說我交通部就是不支持就是能夠進行機車就進行機車我覺得只要這個條文還在的話就會有這樣的一個感覺所以我之前有請教過好我們已經告知地方政府這已經不是通則去發射進行機車的通則了那"},{"start":300.951,"end":323.065,"text":"現在這條條文還在那我之前也問過那時候的局長嘛現在的局長之前司長有問過說如果說譬如說三個車道或四個車道內一內二沒有標示這個進行機車的話可不可以行駛那時候跟我講也是可以嘛就代表說沒有寫進行機車的情況下我們是可以行駛的那既然是這樣的情況下那我們道路安全規則第99條第一項"},{"start":325.306,"end":348.203,"text":"的規定到底有哪些適用的情形導致他有存在的必要因為我想在上次審預算的時候就有在檢就有希望說有做一個決議嘛希望檢討99條之一如果說有不適用的情形的話就把它拿掉免身誤會或者是免身地方政府的一個猜測那不曉得經過這段時間我們交通部能不能好明確指出我們現在"},{"start":349.204,"end":374.611,"text":"中華民國的道路有哪一條他目前的狀況是適用第99條第一項的規定報告委員這個部分我先來做一個說明啦就是剛剛委員所提到的部分就是9999條第一項的一個規定那基本上剛剛委員那個講法基本上是一種這個情形但是如果按照99條的一個這個講法的部分的話他基本上"},{"start":375.111,"end":398.076,"text":"因為這個道路上面相關行駛的部分的話第一個道路的環境必須要明確那目前道路明確這個環境的部分就是靠標誌標線號誌來做一個處理所以它組條文的部分第一項就是要依這個標誌標線來做一個處理那如果說沒有標誌標線的一個這個部分的話才依照這個通則的一個這一個就是這一個方式來做處理"},{"start":398.956,"end":422.375,"text":"對 所以有台灣的中華民國道路哪邊是無標誌或標線然後又有這個第一項的這個情況那這邊這個部分的話就是剛剛這個委員所提的一個部分就是說如果說全部的道路都沒有標誌標線的話那就會回歸到這個後面的一個部分台灣有哪一條道路是沒有標誌標線的"},{"start":423.693,"end":439.552,"text":"跟我們包括一下可能鄉下地方還是有很多這個道路都沒有標示標線既然沒有標示標線那怎麼會有車道的存在跟我們包括一下所謂標示標線基本上像如果這一條適用的話基本上是一些管制的部分因為當然在道路"},{"start":440.012,"end":462.994,"text":"我已經跟你們提過一兩個禮拜了一兩個禮拜就是私底下大家在討論的時候已經請你們去整理嘛就是找出來中華民國哪一條道路是適用這一條規定的那如果說沒有的話那它是不是有存在的必要但是到了目前今天為止你們好像還是找不出來一條適用這條法令的一個道路嘛是不是有沒有辦法明天也提出來"},{"start":463.675,"end":492.257,"text":"跟委員報告一下我大概跟委員報告這兩件事情啦第一個部分其實在譬如說有一些重化區他可能這個開發還沒有那麼完整的時候但是那個路都那個重化區路一定會先出來那先出來的一部分的話就成如剛剛委員所提到的部分上面只會有車道線然後呢不會有相關這個車種使用限制的這些相關的一個部分那就是可以騎啊照剛剛市長講到局長之前講的就是可以騎啊"},{"start":494.638,"end":516.783,"text":"對不對沒有標誌標線的道路我們也不會允許他開放嘛因為他不符合我們的安全標準嘛跟我們報告一下因為這個標誌標線的種類會非常多啦那我們現在在99條講的一個部分是機車使用的這些相關管制的一個講了這麼多你現在到底講不講得出來哪裡的道路條件是適用99條這個第一項的一個規定"},{"start":520.424,"end":534.171,"text":"第一項第一條其實這個部分我之前在當市長的時候也曾經發文這個因為委員有關切我們也正式行文給地方政府第一個正式遵循說針對第99條既然沒有適用的情況下那它存在的意義是什麼"},{"start":535.531,"end":552.847,"text":"既然它存在的意義只是讓地方政府拿來當作一個搪塞的一個理由我們為什麼交通部要幫他擔下來這個搪塞的理由對不對你要不要進行機車你地方道路主管機關自己去判斷他進行機車會不會更安全開放會不會更安全各案去判斷"},{"start":554.108,"end":567.031,"text":"而不是被地方政府拿來搪塞就算我們已經我知道我信息交通部你們已經有發文了有發文告訴大家不可以當作一個這個通則依據了但是既然不能當作通則依據你又沒有適用的情況下那你存在的意義是什麼"},{"start":568.441,"end":588.64,"text":"對陳錄委員所提到的部分但是這個是既有的規定所以部裡面在處理會比較既有的規定竟然不合時宜就把它拿掉之前大概有先徵詢地方政府的一個意見所有的地方政府回來大概都先表示不是用他們要留著幹嘛初步都認為不宜但是這個部分不宜的理由是什麼"},{"start":590.041,"end":609.407,"text":"沒有適用的情況拿掉布的理由是什麼所以這個部分會再繼續確認就是說這裡面存在的一些相關的一個這個課題啦好不好既然委員會上個會期委員會已經決議了好不好我就希望交通部盡速把這個案子定下來你們多久之內可以依據上次的決議來做調整給個時間啦好不好"},{"start":615.556,"end":627.425,"text":"我們10月底會10月底之前會跟地方政府再開一個會那我們來了解一下地方政府好10月底開完11月底前那再給一個正式的討論的一個決定好不好好謝謝部長好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時53分）謝謝召委，一樣請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：原本我規劃明年3月初要找立法院幾個好朋友去東京一趟，你知道是什麼事情嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：棒球賽嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：對，世界棒球經典賽，明年3月在東京巨蛋舉辦，希望大家能一起去應援，將東京巨蛋塞滿，變成我們的主場。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：其實現在有許多球迷在網路上討論，明年這個時段的機票已經變得非常高昂，原本像今年12月底的廉航機票大概就是六千多，傳統航空大概是一萬出頭一點點，但是在明年的賽事期間，3月5日至9日，廉航的價格已經飆到1萬5,000元了，傳統航空像華航現在顯示的可能是1萬7,000元至2萬元之間，根據我們的搜尋，華航之後的來回價格可能會漲到3萬5,000元。當然我知道有市場機制，為什麼票價會變得那麼高？因為載客率非常高，買票的人非常多，當然後面的票價就會變高，這就是市場機制。","在此我想請交通部幫忙，因為大家都想去當10號隊友，交通部能否協助所有的球迷或協助中華隊，讓東京巨蛋變成我們中華隊的主場、讓所有的10號隊友都能以合理價格買到機票去東京加油。現在很多網友都已經說了去東京的機票太貴了，甚至有人考慮要從大阪進出，再搭新幹線去還比較划算，不知道交通部有沒有注意到這個狀況，可不可以看怎麼樣協助？過往的做法可能是將小飛機換成大飛機，如果大飛機還不夠的話，是否能夠談一下增加航線，或者是在鄰近的機場像是茨城機場增加航班？我們有沒有做這些相關的討論？"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員的建議，這個建議真的是非常好，明年3月將在東京舉辦一個臺灣人民都非常關注的賽事，我們會在幾個方面努力，首先要先保障未來要去比賽的球員有足夠且舒適的機位可以到達比賽的場地，這個部分要先確保。第二個部分，委員建議的方向非常好，我們會盡量請民航局來溝通，所有的航空公司，不只是華航啦！光是靠華航可能也不夠！"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["陳部長世凱：所有的國籍航空公司，甚至如果有機會溝通到外籍航空公司願意幫忙的話，我們希望能夠放大機型、增加機位。當然票價的部分是屬於市場機制，誠如委員剛才所言，它是一個浮動的機制，但是，如果供給量增多的時候，我相信它的價格就會比較平穩一點，所以我們會朝供給量的部分盡量努力。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["陳部長世凱：因為棒球是國球，所有的民眾都很關心，今天委員提醒了，我們現在就開始與航空公司溝通這件事情。"],["廖委員先翔：明年3月距離現在10月大概有將近半年的時間，既然現在已經發現有這樣的需求，我們就應該要儘快提出供給。其實包括中華航空也可以與中華隊或官方做主題商品的搭配，像是買機票說不定就可以加購一些應援商品等等，不只是提供旅客能合適的價格及買得到機票，也能讓我們的中華航空多賺一點錢，以上。"],["陳部長世凱：如果可以跨業合作是更好啊！"],["廖委員先翔：後續就麻煩部長、民航局與國籍航空公司一起加油，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["廖委員先翔：接下來第二題是道路平權的問題，無論是公開或私下也都與部長討論過好幾次，針對道路安全規則第九十九條之一，已經明確發函給地方政府，不能當作繪設禁行機車通則的依據，非常感謝交通部明確告知地方不能拿這條來講。但是這條規定還是存在嘛！是不是以暗示或明示的方式告訴大家，交通部就是不支持能夠禁行機車就禁行機車，我認為只要這個條文還在的話就會有這樣的感覺。","之前我也請教過，雖然我們已經告知地方政府，這個不再是繪設禁行機車的通則，但現在這條條文還存在，之前我也問過司長，也就是現在的局長，譬如3個車道或4個車道，內1、內2沒有標示禁行機車的話，可不可以行駛？那時候告訴我也是可以，代表在沒有寫禁行機車的情況下，我們是可以行駛的，既然是這樣的情況，道路安全規則第九十九條第一項的規定到底有哪些適用情形，導致它有存在的必要？因為上次審預算時就有作一個決議，希望能檢討第九十九條之一，如果有不適用的情形就將它拿掉，免生誤會或免生地方政府的猜測。經過了這段時間，不知道交通部能否明確指出，中華民國的道路有哪一條目前的狀況是適用第九十九條第一項的規定？"],["林局長福山：報告委員，我先針對這個部分提出說明，剛剛委員提出的是第九十九條第一項的規定，基本上，委員的講法是一種情形，但是按照第九十九條的講法，在道路上相關行駛的部分，第一個，道路的環境必須要明確，目前道路環境明確就是依靠標誌、標線、號誌來處理，所以主條文的第一項就是要依標誌、標線來處理。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["林局長福山：如果沒有標誌、標線的部分，才會依照通則的方式處理。"],["廖委員先翔：中華民國有哪些道路無標誌或標線，又有第一項的情況？"],["林局長福山：如果全部的道路都沒有標誌、標線的話，這樣就會回歸到後面的部分。"],["廖委員先翔：臺灣有哪一條道路沒有標誌、標線？"],["林局長福山：報告委員，可能鄉下地方還是有很多道路都沒有標誌、標線。"],["廖委員先翔：既然沒有標誌、標線，怎麼會有車道的存在？"],["林局長福山：所謂的標誌、標線，如果這一條適用的話，基本上是一些管制的部分，當然在道路規則……"],["廖委員先翔：我已經向你們提出一、二個禮拜了，私底下討論時也已經請你們去整理，找出中華民國有哪一條道路適用這一條的規定？如果沒有的話，它是不是有存在的必要？但是到今天為止，你們好像還是找不出一條適用這條法令的道路，是不是？有沒有辦法明確的提出來？"],["林局長福山：我要向委員報告二件事情，第一個部分，譬如有一些重劃區可能在開發還沒有那麼完整的時候，但是那個路一定會先出來，先出來的部分，就誠如剛剛委員提到的部分，上面只會有車道線，不會有車種使用限制的相關部分……"],["廖委員先翔：那就是可以騎啊！按照局長之前講的就是可以騎啊！對不對？"],["林局長福山：另外……"],["廖委員先翔：沒有標誌、標線的道路，我們也不會允許它開放，因為不符合安全標準嘛！"],["林局長福山：報告委員，因為標誌、標線的種類非常多，而第九十九條講的是機車使用相關管制的……"],["廖委員先翔：講了那麼多，你現在到底講不講得出來，哪裡的道路條件適用第九十九條第一項的規定？"],["林局長福山：其實這個部分，之前我擔任司長時也曾經發文，因為委員關切過，我們也正式行文給地方政府，第一個就是徵詢，針對第九十九條……"],["廖委員先翔：既然沒有適用的情況，它存在的意義是什麼？既然它存在的意義只是讓地方政府拿來當作一個搪塞的理由，為什麼交通部要幫忙擔下這個搪塞的理由，對不對？你要不要禁行機車，由道路主管機關自己去判斷，禁行機車會不會更安全？開放會不會更安全？個案去判斷，而不是被地方政府拿來搪塞。我要謝謝交通部已經發文告知不可以當作通則的依據，既然不能當作通則的依據，也沒有適用的情況下，那麼它存在的意義是什麼？"],["林局長福山：誠如委員所提到的部分，但這是既有的規定，所以部裡處理會比較審慎一點。"],["廖委員先翔：既有的規定既然不合時宜，就把它拿掉。"],["林局長福山：之前大概有先徵詢地方政府的意見，所有地方政府回來的都先表示……"],["廖委員先翔：不適用，他們要留著幹嘛？"],["林局長福山：初步都認為不宜，但是這個部分誠如委員……"],["廖委員先翔：不宜的理由是什麼？沒有適用的情況又不拿掉的理由是什麼？"],["林局長福山：所以這個部分會再繼續確認，在這裡面存在的相關課題，因為比較長久的……"],["廖委員先翔：既然上個會期委員會已經決議了，我希望交通部能盡速把這個案子定下來，你們在多久之內可以依據上次的決議進行調整？給一個時間，好不好？"],["胡司長迪琦：報告委員，我們10月底之前會再與地方政府開會，了解一下地方政府……"],["廖委員先翔：10月底開完會，在11月底前再給一個正式的決定，好不好？"],["胡司長迪琦：好。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員的發言。","現在請陳雪生委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff06608872388a946fd41e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07d141228277b1494e55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:39:23 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很多大院討論完之後增加了不少預算再來我們國家也確實增加了很多的項目在做這是第一點那第二點為什麼鐵道局的預算增加跟委員報告在今年在明年跟後年會是整個交通建設的工程預算的高峰期明年跟後年我舉一個例子跟委員報告"},{"start":222.106,"end":239.506,"text":"包含我們自己的自己要辦的工程以外地方的捷運的需求地方捷運需求本來想要協助地方的在明年會有399億的需求明年實際上有399億的需求但後年成長到1000億的需求"},{"start":240.387,"end":262.497,"text":"大後年會有八百億大大後年也是八百億也就是說這個是一個抖身的狀態真正的需求是一個抖身的狀態但是在現在的狀況是我們自己遇到了財化法的狀況底下我們自己鐵道局有很多的建設正在進行當中包含桃園的鐵路地下化包含台南的鐵路地下化"},{"start":263.217,"end":287.626,"text":"包含花東雙軌電氣化等等的工程我們都在進行當中也就是說我們自己工程的高峰期我們遇到了在街上加上地方的這個捷運的需求的高峰期也遇到了兩個高峰都一起遇到所以當然會供不應求我們的預算當然會不足部長沒關係我是要跟你講說今天你是交通部部長那我們希望說在中央政府總預算一樣三兆的規模之下"},{"start":288.902,"end":305.304,"text":"本來大家期待的因為就像我之前講過跟你私下大家討論的時候也講過嘛今天既然這個捷運建設是要經過中央審議的那你們既然有權大家有責嘛把我們後續要把它完成嘛你不能說最後前面都審都是你們審然後金額分配就談好了然後現在"},{"start":306.929,"end":322.437,"text":"過了之後總預算並沒有變少然後鐵道局預算也增加的情況下面結果把錢打走的不是看總預算的狀況是要看真正的需求我們工程在進行的需求我想民眾這種交通建設是硬體建設這種資本門建設大家都一定有這個需求所以我們希望說這幾年是高峰期"},{"start":323.677,"end":350.696,"text":"所以後續到底台中市的捷運或各城市的捷運的經費會不會變動還未定又怎樣報告委員我跟您報告台中市要蓋捷運其實好簡單決定權在盧市長的手上他增加的統籌分配款只要拿出七分之一就夠他所說的這個四十二億的需求那是一年度嘛那整條捷運蓋起來一兩千億啊這一條而已啊如果假設未來的十年台中市增加的預算接近三千億他要蓋這一條捷運絕對沒問題"},{"start":352.737,"end":370.38,"text":"是市長的決定所以你現在說中央在這部分的話可能後續在報告委員分配比例上面有多少錢我們會做多少事有多少錢我們就會全部拿出來幫助地方來做捷運所以我今天講嘛今天總預算第一個總預算是沒有減少第二個"},{"start":371.341,"end":397.192,"text":"鐵道局在整體的編列上是增加的事就以按照這個至少明年度的預算來講是增加的那是需求增加所以我們希望說交通部你們在行政院裡面但是你們行政部門的事情你們行政院裡面在這個排序上面應該要去多增加這種硬體建設的錢而不是報告委員有啦我們有增加但是要以我們自己的工程為優先因為要有個觀念捷運是地方興建"},{"start":398.112,"end":417.429,"text":"中央有能力的時候協助所以主要的責任是在地方他要不要做地方自己決定中央有餘裕的時候一定會幫忙但是當我的力氣減少或者是我的資源減少的時候能幫的力道必然就減少部長如果這樣說那我們希望未來捷運的這個整合這個中央的進度"},{"start":418.45,"end":444.98,"text":"就可以稍微快一點了如果這樣錢跟市要一起嗎其實我也這麼認為好OK那這樣有共識如果這樣的話我們以後如果台中市或各地方政府要自己出錢的部分那我們希望中央審核能夠加速好不好好那接下來討論一下那個高鐵的這個鄰近車廂的問題我想幾個鄰近車廂當然是軟體的部分大家服務或是勸導等等我們希望說大家能夠互相尊重那你看硬體的部分我覺得這是有點有趣"},{"start":447.497,"end":453.484,"text":"從十年前到現在大家都不斷強調希望高鐵的訊號能夠增強讓收訊能夠更好電話更好打 看影片更順暢"},{"start":454.912,"end":479.461,"text":"我們把硬體做好了或是說我們努力去把硬體改善改善完之後然後現在跟大家說我們要寧靜車廂好當然我覺得我是個人是寧靜車廂這樣的政策喔可是我說那這個收訊的部分有沒有必要再花這麼多經費去增強因為這是一個相悖的概念嘛我今天把訊號增強讓大家能夠更方便的打電話更方便的收看影片那會不會導致說更多人在高野上使用這個手機訊號的這個問題這個不覺得這個政策有點矛盾嗎"},{"start":485.308,"end":502.034,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想兩者並不完全矛盾因為有好的訊號大家可以事實上方便使用3C產品但是是戴耳機所以它是同時是共存的可以產生win-win的效果而且我們事實上並沒有禁止打電話我們只是希望打電話的時候都要選官"},{"start":502.614,"end":522.98,"text":"好 我因為在這個寧靜車廂的這個相關規範裡面我想比較明確的幾個要求當然希望大家假天會要去這個玄關講然後看影片要用耳機就是寧靜車廂幾個規範明確的幾個是針對3C產品的使用因為3C產品當然就包含到訊號的部分那所以我覺得這部分我覺得可以再討論就到底要不要把它"},{"start":523.78,"end":541.73,"text":"因為你說今天又要再推這個貧困要增強到8倍讓整個高鐵的收視率更強這是6月25號的新聞有這樣的一個狀況我覺得這個可以再討論一下錢要不要花在這個地方還是說現有這個狀況我基本上正常在使用我們的LINE我們的文字訊息在高鐵上基本上是堪用的"},{"start":542.43,"end":557.571,"text":"但是你要視訊你要看影片你要講電話當然有些地方會收訊不太好所以我覺得這個在討論寧靜車廂的時候我們希望大家不要去干擾到別人的時候是不是在這個硬體上面我覺得這個權能要稍微拿捏一下好不好再來就是說這個"},{"start":559.193,"end":587.831,"text":"死案的部分因為董事長就之前這個針對小孩哭鬧的部分你們說要祭出這個怪怪來伺候就可能會給一些零食餅乾但是我知道說我們針對這個WHO等等的一些組織針對小朋友他們吃的東西其實很多家長自己也是有些想法就是說我們給他吃有糖的或是太多人工添加物的餅乾對這個小孩子的有些家長包括我自己個人在內我是很在意這個事情的所以我覺得在如果真的要做這個事情"},{"start":588.371,"end":604.131,"text":"要做配套措施因為其實真的高磊一開始推動是希望大家全家出遊能夠多利用大宗藝術那也有小朋友的存在所以在食安上面我們是不是應該要重新的去思考一下這個東西怎麼處理好 那我想我們會來來做晚飯的來思考 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時39分）好，謝謝主席，我們請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，一開始當然還是要跟你討論一下我們中捷捷運藍線被砍了96%，過去本來承諾明年度的預算應該是42億，現在明年只剩下1.68億，當然各城市包含臺北和高雄的減幅也都蠻高的，其他城市在70%、76%，臺中的減幅高達96%，我們今天在這邊提出來是要問一下部長接下來怎麼辦？後續都長這樣子嗎？為什麼會發生這樣的事？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，首先先回答您問的最後一個問題：為什麼會發生這樣的事情？因為財劃法、因為立法院通過了財劃法的財源分配，所以造成整個交通部當時能夠協助地方的建設，尤其在捷運建設的補助款大幅減少，這是第一個。第二個，我們當時也沒有答應臺中說要補42億，這都在審議的過程，只不過最後行政院審議下來的金額是1.68億，這是行政院最後審下來的金額，所以從來沒有答應過42億這件事。"],["黃委員健豪：我先針對最後總額，如果你說沒有承諾明年給42億，那總額按照本來的分配大約是一人一半。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們還在估算當中，因為未來的財劃法，之後的財政狀況會非常不一樣。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，沒關係。"],["陳部長世凱：臺中市一年增加了接近300億的預算。"],["黃委員健豪：所以本來承諾大約一人一半的金額，到後面還是可能會有變動，你是這個意思嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為這個變動機率相當的高，因為中央已經沒有這麼多的預算可以支應地方應辦的捷運事項。"],["黃委員健豪：來，部長，當然部長您是針對交通部分，但是我們看整體的年度預算，行政院長昨天在總質詢的時候有回應其他委員講說明年總預算中央編列的是3兆350億，含今年追加預算，包含前面刪預算等等的，最後比起來它的規模一樣是3兆，而且比去年增加了22億，你的年度國家總預算是增加的，增加22億。然後今天部長你跟我說行政院因為財劃法，所以把臺中或各城市的捷運軌道建設砍掉，但是你的總預算是增加的，財劃法地方的配額那是另外計算，沒有算在這3兆裡面，今天你有3兆了，跟去年相比其實差不多，但去年我想各城市的捷運並沒有被砍這麼多，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分，鐵道局是我們捷運的主管機關，鐵道局自己明年度跟今年度相比也增加了143億，結果鐵道局增加，但捷運被砍，為什麼會發生這種事情？這不合理，這個配置是不合理的吧？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，兩個部分，第一個部分是國家應該要做的事情其實也增加了不少，尤其是在大院通過了很多的預算案或者是要增加預算的案子其實很多……"],["黃委員健豪：那部分今天這邊我簡單帶過，那個東西很多沒編進來，有些經費是大院要討論的……"],["陳部長世凱：很多大院討論完之後，增加了不少預算，再來，我們國家也確實增加了很多的項目在做，這是第一點。第二點，為什麼鐵道局的預算增加，跟委員報告，在明年和後年會是整個交通建設工程預算的高峰期，明年跟後年！我舉一個例子跟委員報告，包含我們自己要辦的工程以外，地方的捷運的需求，本來想要協助地方的，在明年會有399億的需求，即明年實際上有399億的需求，但後年成長到1,000億的需求，大後年會有800億，大大後年也是800億，也就是說，這個是一個陡升的狀態，真正的需求是一個陡升的狀態，但是現在是我們遇到了財劃法的狀況底下，我們自己鐵道局有很多的建設正在進行當中，包含桃園的鐵路地下化、包含臺南的鐵路地下化、包含花東雙軌電氣化等等的工程都在進行當中，也就是說，我們自己工程的高峰期，我們遇到了，再加上地方的捷運需求的高峰期也遇到了，兩個高峰都一起遇到，所以當然會供不應求，我們的預算當然會不足。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，沒關係，我是要跟你講，今天你是交通部部長，我們希望在中央政府總預算一樣是3兆的規模之下，本來大家期待的，就像我之前講過，跟你及大家私下討論的時候也講過，今天既然捷運建設是要經過中央審議的，你們既然有權、大家有責，我們後續要把它完成，你不能前面審都是你們審，然後金額分配都談好了，現在過了之後，總預算並沒有變少，鐵道局的預算也增加的情況，結果把錢拿走了。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，不是看總預算的狀況，是要看真正的需求、我們工程在進行的需求。"],["黃委員健豪：民眾的這種交通建設是硬體建設，這種資本門建設，大家都一定有這個需求，所以我希望……"],["陳部長世凱：這幾年是高峰期。"],["黃委員健豪：所以後續到底臺中市的捷運或各城市的捷運經費會不會變動還未定就對了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺中市要蓋捷運其實好簡單，決定權在盧市長的手上，他只要從增加的統籌分配款拿出七分之一就足夠他所說的42億元需求。"],["黃委員健豪：那是一年度，但是整條捷運蓋起來需要一、二千億元，況且是一條而已。"],["陳部長世凱：假設未來十年臺中市增加的預算接近3,000億元，它要蓋這條捷運絕對沒問題，這是市長的決定。"],["黃委員健豪：你現在是說中央後續在分配比例上……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們有多少錢就會做多少事、有多少錢就會全部拿出來幫助地方做捷運建設。"],["黃委員健豪：第一個，總預算沒有減少。第二個，鐵道局在整體編列上增加的是……至少明年度的預算是增加的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：那是需求增加，我們現在進行的工程……"],["黃委員健豪：那是你們行政部門的事情，行政院在這個排序上應該要多增加這種硬體建設的錢，而不是……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，有啦！我們有增加，但是要以我們自己的工程為優先，因為要有一個觀念，捷運是由地方興建，中央有能力的時候會協助，所以主要的責任是在地方，要不要做是由地方自己決定，中央有餘裕的時候一定會幫忙，但是當我的力氣減少或我的資源減少時能幫的力道必然就會減少。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，如果是這樣的話，我們希望未來中央審核捷運的進度可以稍微快一點，因為錢與事情要一起嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：其實我也這麼認為。"],["黃委員健豪：OK，這樣就有共識，如果以後臺中市或各地方政府要自己出錢的部分，也希望中央的審核能夠加速，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來要討論關於高鐵寧靜車廂的問題，所謂寧靜車廂當然是屬於軟體的部分，無論是服務或勸導等等，希望大家都能夠互相尊重。在硬體的部分，我覺得這件事情很有趣，從十年前到現在大家都不斷強調希望高鐵的訊號能夠增強，讓收訊能夠更好、電話更好打、看影片更順暢，但是當我們把硬體做好了、我們努力改善了硬體，現在又告訴大家要寧靜車廂。當然我個人是支持寧靜車廂這樣的政策，但是收訊的部分有沒有必要再花這麼多經費去增強？因為這是一個相悖的概念，今天把訊號增強讓大家能夠更方便的打電話、更方便的收看影片，會不會產生有更多人在高鐵上使用手機訊號的問題？不覺得這個政策有點矛盾嗎？"],["史董事長哲：謝謝委員的關心，我想兩者並不完全矛盾，因為有好的訊號可以方便大家使用3C產品，但是要戴上耳機，所以它是同時共存的，可以產生win-win的效果。事實上，我們也並沒有禁止打電話，只是希望打電話時能去玄關。"],["黃委員健豪：在寧靜車廂的相關規範中有幾個比較明確的要求，像是希望大家能去玄關講電話及看影片要戴上耳機等等，這幾個明確的規範是針對3C產品的使用，因為3C產品當然就關係到訊號的部分，我覺得這個部分可以再討論，到底要不要把它……因為你說又要再推頻寬再增強到8倍，讓整個高鐵的收訊會更強，這是6月25日的新聞，我覺得這個可以再討論，錢要不要花在這個地方，或是現有的這個狀況，基本上正常使用LINE的文字訊息是堪用的在高鐵上，但是你要視訊、要看影片、要講電話，當然有些地方的收訊會不太好，所以我覺得在討論寧靜車廂的時候、希望大家不要干擾到別人的時候，在這個硬體方面的權衡是不是也要稍微拿捏一下？好不好？","再來是食安的部分，針對小孩哭鬧的問題，你們說要祭出乖乖來侍候，可能會給一些零食餅乾，但我知道像是WHO等等的組織針對小朋友吃的東西，而且許多家長自己也都有些想法，不希望給孩子吃太多含糖或人工添加物的餅乾，包含我個人在內，我是很在意這件事情。如果你們真的要做這件事就必須要有配套措施，高鐵一開始推動是希望民眾全家出遊能多利用大眾運輸，也有小朋友的存在，所以是否應該重新思考這個食安問題該如何處理？"],["史董事長哲：我們會廣泛的思考，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","我們現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員宣讀。","案由：本院廖先翔委員，鑑於日前台62線快速公路西向4.7K處（7號橋A2橋台內側）發生伸縮縫鋼板翹起事件，致使多達三十餘輛車輛於行經該處時發生輪胎爆胎及車體損毀之情事，嚴重影響用路人行車安全。雖基隆工務段已於事發後緊急派員切除鋼板並進行臨時填補，以恢復通行安全，惟截至目前，公路局尚未就民眾車輛損害之賠償事宜提出明確回應或補償機制，是以為維護公共工程管理機關之責信原則，保障用路人合法權益，並防杜類似事件再度發生，爰要求交通部公路局應主動調查損害原因與責任歸屬並依《國家賠償法》相關規定，以全額賠償方式補償民眾損失，應全面檢討公路伸縮縫與橋梁設施設計、施工及維養機制，以防範類似事故重演，是否有當？敬請公決。","說明：","一、依據《國家賠償法》第3條第1項規定，公共設施因設置或管理有欠缺，致人民生命、身體、人身自由或財產受損害者，國家應負損害賠償責任。本案伸縮縫鋼板翹起，屬公共設施瑕疵導致之用路人損害，依法應由主管機關負擔國家賠償之責。","二、該路段雖基隆工務段原排定民國114年10月8日更換，然10月7日臨時損壞隆起，致使多達三十餘輛車輛於行經該處時發生輪胎爆胎及車體損毀之情事，為確保公共工程安全與責任透明，建議公路局除應主動調查損害原因與責任歸屬、儘速於三個月內完成受損民眾之賠償與撥款，並應檢討全國快速道路伸縮縫及鋼板設計與巡檢標準、公路伸縮縫與橋梁設施設計、施工及維養機制，以避免類似事件再度重演。","提案人：廖先翔","連署人：洪孟楷　　邱若華　　陳雪生"],["主席：先請教各位委員或提案委員是否要做補充說明？","請廖先翔委員。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝召委。台62線近一年來除了這起事故，還有之前隧道裡燈具掉落的事件，都是比較受到社會廣泛注意的公共安全問題。這次的伸縮縫鋼板翹起事件，我想責任歸屬應該是非常的明確，也就是道路主管機關維護的問題。當然我們有國家賠償法的規定，只是我希望未來在相關程序的部分，無論是交通部或公路局能夠在程序上簡政便民，不要讓人家來跟我們追償時還要經過繁冗的程序，也希望公路局主動聯絡所有受影響的車輛、主動協助後續所有的維修及賠償，以上。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員。還有沒有其他委員要補充說明？沒有的話，現在就請行政單位說明。"],["林局長福山：報告召委及廖委員，第一點，關於台62線違反的部分已經請我們北分局再加強。第二點，針對這個案件的部分，確實我們所掌握到的，造冊登記大概有32輛車受損，簡政便民是必須要做的，但是整個受理的部分原則上並不需要公告，所以是不是建議，我們會儘快處理，但針對說明的第二點之第三行「儘速公告受損民眾之賠償」，已大致向委員報告過，「公路局會儘速於三個月內完成受損民眾之賠償與撥款」，後面的文字就不要了，我們會在三個月內完成。"],["廖委員先翔：同意。"],["主席：其他委員有沒有意見？沒有意見的話，我們的提案就照修正通過。","臨時提案已處理完畢，如有委員要對上述提案補簽，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。","現在繼續進行詢答，請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣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我們請部長請部長部長好 最近的新聞武泉車站張沃元招民眾推落軌道那這個部分事實上正好之前"},{"start":28.272,"end":48.099,"text":"我跟我們崑澤召委我們當時部長剛就任的時候也有到高雄去看我們這個月台門那事實上這個就顯現出它的功效所以當時是高雄市事辦那我們也希望說能夠人流多的地方能夠盡快裝設那當然這個部分"},{"start":52.615,"end":70.183,"text":"攬城市的這個月台板講實話是蠻貴的啦那300公尺就要1億多但是呢其實那是事半所以事半的時候就有一些新設有一些不必要的功能那有一些是大量應該就可以節省成本所以這個部分部長是不是有想法是不是能夠盡快裝設"},{"start":71.702,"end":87.078,"text":"我們是希望說在事辦完成之後我們去核實看一組大概需要多少錢在人流比較多的地方尤其是風險相對高的地方我們希望能夠快速來偵測不過這個也要請台鐵公司這邊研議看什麼樣的狀況是應該要偵測的設一個標準我們趕快能夠裝 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我是簡單這樣建議就是說我們"},{"start":266.972,"end":281.709,"text":"做那個觀光工廠然後呢我們這個時間上可能要儘快所以呢就是一樓的部分其實可以先開始做商店那包括台鐵最具特色的便當"},{"start":282.51,"end":309.845,"text":"那包括其他的配套的產品那這個部分其實就可以先處理那處理之後呢你的廚房需要時間的他可以在第二階段再來完成那其他的相關的配套要從第三第四階段這個讓台鐵來規劃我是覺得這樣子一個建議希望說台鐵可以盡快來實施那是不是請部長或者是台鐵可以給我們高雄市給我們豐山市每一個時間"},{"start":311.038,"end":324.676,"text":"我想剛才這個委員所提到的這樣一個方向是非常好的我們也會按照這個方式來因為事實上也配合著台鐵的這個需要我們這邊有需要有一個廚房做這個便當時間給我概略的時間就好"},{"start":327.662,"end":346.701,"text":"我們現在就可以開始來著手規劃然後來做因為這一部分的話招商的話就比較不需要因為主要大部分是我要的是時間你給我時間其他的困難點你們慢慢一一克服明年我們大概看是不是明年年中可不可以開始在這邊賣便當"},{"start":348.207,"end":367.463,"text":"明年年中還要半年多可能要整個設施的安排都還需要的明年年中之前完成 好不好盡快不要人家說我們豐山變成文子館那講不過去 好不好這個部分就是明年年中"},{"start":368.624,"end":388.902,"text":"部長您聽到了明年年中之前我的一樓的店面要先開張然後廚房後面接著時間你們就是儘快嘛至少我已經有先動起來那人民也看到台鐵動起來那台鐵應該如剛才部長所提的要自己會經營嘛"},{"start":390.403,"end":411.986,"text":"所以這個部分希望說台鐵更用心那當然一定要把它經營好那包括周遭我那一次有跟董事長跟總經理報告過就是那個軌道經濟周遭連結我們鳳山捷運站的這個概念其實可以整體一起思考你才生意才做得起來好這個部分再麻煩是的我們會朝這方向我們請那個民航局"},{"start":423.36,"end":445.44,"text":"這個跟部長再跟局長再講一下我這個第一個就是謝謝民航局其實也很辛苦啦就是我們的航班跟我們很多的現在機場在擴建都很辛苦這個我知道但是擴建完整還要在16年後實在是很久所以我在這中間要做怎麼樣的調整那首先就是那個"},{"start":446.721,"end":461.607,"text":"其實我們就是航空站主任已經從松山機場到我們高雄當航空站主任那松山機場的優點正好可以把它複製學習過來那比如說松山機場的AI機器人"},{"start":463.53,"end":477.627,"text":"那還有雙山機場的整樓的美食街怎麼樣把這個周遭的配套規劃的更好那正好新的主任他對雙山機場很熟悉這個部分再拜託部長跟局長可以再要求好"},{"start":478.968,"end":505.678,"text":"那再來就是說我們的那個預班登機預班登機其實我們高雄的登機其實有兩個概念一個概念就是我高雄機場本身的航班擴張擴充那另外一個就是說我從高雄到桃園機場坐飛機這兩個部分都是對高雄來講非常重要那我們也謝謝民航局事實上這一陣子我們爭取了很多的航班這個民航局都非常的幫忙也很感謝"},{"start":506.898,"end":513.467,"text":"那我現在還有兩個點需要做的就是說第一個點之前也提過就是我高雄機場到桃園機場的接駁機"},{"start":517.849,"end":539.997,"text":"這個部分華航以及相關的也都有在研究我們也希望說這個部分其實我本來都已經幫忙找好了已經快完成了就是那個波音飛機還沒來波音飛機什麼時候可以到我們可以先把這個接駁機先把它完成這是其一其二就是說我在高雄如果可以做預辦登機"},{"start":541.477,"end":561.664,"text":"不是針對到桃園機場坐飛機的是針對到高雄機場坐飛機的那世界各國的觀光客如果到我們高雄機場來或者是說你包括中南部啊他要到高雄機場來坐飛機這個時候呢事實上你要進去兩個小時我們現在機場又在擴建 排隊可以排很久"},{"start":562.384,"end":586.48,"text":"所以如果能夠一起就做這個思考那也可以讓其他的縣市你比如兩個小時我現在左營高鐵或是高雄火車站可以先預辦登機那我就可以稍微留個一個小時的時間在高雄裡面消費啦逛逛啦也不用在小港機場擴建那麼擠那這兩個方向是不是部長心裡有概念或者是華航跟民航局"},{"start":587.361,"end":609.326,"text":"可以有一個簡單的答案報告委員您所建議的這個我們來研議就是說有沒有可能從高鐵站或者是火車站來做這個預辦登機的部分我們來研議看看不過這個其實牽扯到的界面蠻複雜的各個界面我們都必須要先溝通所以讓我們研議一下那個播音什麼時候來播音"},{"start":613.579,"end":635.889,"text":"我們是希望說他明年年中中間的中能夠那個通過所有的那個認證包括我們民航局的認證然後正式上線服務那目前我們還在我們甚至已經派了人到那個廠裡面直接在那邊盯了OK 那希望說我們高雄到桃園機場的接駁機可以盡快完成這個我們也有在研議好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":538,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（11時28分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長好。最近的新聞──五權車站站務員遭民眾推落軌道，這個部分正好之前我跟昆澤召委在部長剛就任的時候，我們也有到高雄去看月臺門，事實上就顯現出它的功效，當時高雄是試辦，我們也希望人流多的地方能夠儘快裝設。當然纜繩式的月臺門講實話是蠻貴的，300公尺就要一億多，但是那是試辦，試辦的時候就會有一些新設、不必要的功能，有一些應該是大量就可以節省成本，所以這個部分部長是不是有想法？是不是能夠儘快裝設？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望在試辦完成之後，覈實看一組大概需要多少錢。在人流比較多的地方，尤其是風險相對高的地方，我們希望能夠快速來增設，不過也要請臺鐵公司研議，看什麼樣的狀況是應該要增設的，設一個標準，能夠裝的就趕快來裝。"],["許委員智傑：OK，這個就拜託臺鐵儘快研究、跟部長報告，我們希望儘快讓我們知道結果如何，以免不幸的事情發生了就為時已晚，我們現在先做防範未然。","現在就是陸海空，我想簡單先跟部長要求一下，鳳山車站確定的規劃時間跟方向，再來就是海，包括郵輪的觀光是不是應該整體思考？包括高雄及亞洲郵輪轉運樞紐的考量。空的部分包括高雄機場預辦登機，這個其實是個思考的方向，包括美食街等等，是不是可以把松山機場的優點帶進來？我們先就鳳山車站，這個部分兩次招標都標不出去。"],["陳部長世凱：4次。"],["許委員智傑：部長還記得當時有答應我，如果鳳山標不出去，我要臺北車站跟鳳山車站1+1一起，當時你們也都說好，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：後來發現合約來不及這樣併入。"],["許委員智傑：來不及是思考不周！沒關係，現在我說要就是我要好的東西。上一次臺鐵很有誠意跟我說，要不然這樣，你們自己來經營，比照日本JR新幹線的模式，但臺鐵是不是有這個決心要把它做好？而且我說要有個特色，所以現在想到臺鐵便當觀光廚房及夢工廠在鳳山車站就可以先來做。這個部分是不是部長也原則上覺得可行？"],["陳部長世凱：據我所知，臺鐵在高雄很像要再找一個中央廚房，目前我們有在思考，鳳山車站有沒有可能做這樣的設置。因為它是車站，如果做這樣的設置，其實可以結合觀光一起來思考。我覺得臺鐵未來也必須要思考跟學習一件事情，就是它有非常多的廠站，未來整體資源的開發跟資產的開發，它自己也要學會對於場站的開發或者是經營，這個部分其實是臺鐵需要學習的。因為鳳山車站目前是空置在那個地方，我們其實有這個空間，讓臺鐵可以先設置例如廚房，結合觀光、商業，看整體要怎麼樣規劃，讓臺鐵在經營廠站或者是商業營運的部分能夠再做更多的學習。這個部分，我是蠻支持的。"],["許委員智傑：OK。我是簡單這樣建議，就是做觀光工廠，然後時間上可能要儘快，一樓的部分其實可以先開始做商店，包括臺鐵最具特色的便當及其他的配套產品，這個部分可以先處理，處理之後，需要時間的廚房可以在第二階段再來完成。至於其他的相關配套，要從第三、第四階段就讓臺鐵來規劃，我提出這樣的建議希望臺鐵可以儘快實施，請部長或者臺鐵是不是可以給高雄市民、鳳山市民一個時間？"],["鄭董事長光遠：剛才委員所提到這樣的方向是非常好的，我們也會按照這個方式。事實上也配合著臺鐵的需要，我們在這邊需要有一個廚房做便當。"],["許委員智傑：給我概略的時間就好。"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們現在就可以開始著手規劃來做，因為這部分比較不需要招商，主要大部分是我們自己……"],["許委員智傑：沒關係，我要的是時間，你給我時間，至於其他的困難點，你們慢慢一一克服。"],["鄭董事長光遠：我們看是不是明年年中可以開始在這邊賣便當。"],["許委員智傑：明年年中還要半年多！"],["鄭董事長光遠：可能還需要安排整個設施。"],["許委員智傑：明年年中之前完成，好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：好。"],["許委員智傑：儘快，不要讓人家說鳳山變成蚊子館，那講不過去，好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：好，我們繼續朝這個方向。"],["許委員智傑：這個部分就是明年年中，部長聽到了？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我有聽到。"],["許委員智傑：明年年中之前一樓的店面要先開張。"],["陳部長世凱：對，先有商店。"],["許委員智傑：接著是廚房，你們就是儘快，至少已經有先動起來，人民也看到了臺鐵動起來，臺鐵應該如剛才部長所提的，要自己會經營。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：所以這個部分希望臺鐵更用心，當然一定要把它經營好，包括周遭，我那一次有跟董事長及總經理報告過，就是有關軌道經濟，周遭連結鳳山捷運站的概念，其實可以整體一起思考，生意才做得起來，這個部分再麻煩……"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，我們會朝這個方向。"],["許委員智傑：OK！我們請民航局，要跟部長及局長再講一下，第一個就是謝謝民航局，其實也很辛苦啦，我們的航班跟很多的……現在機場在擴建，都很辛苦，這個我知道，但是擴建完成還要再16年後，實在是很久，所以我在這中間要做怎麼樣的調整？首先，其實航空站主任已經從松山機場調到高雄當航空站主任，正好可以把松山機場的優點複製學習過來，比如松山機場的AI機器人，還有松山機場整樓的美食街，怎麼樣把周遭的配套規劃得更好，正好新的主任對松山機場很熟悉，這個部分再拜託部長跟局長可以再要求。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：好，再來就是我們的預辦登機，高雄的登機其實有兩個概念，一個概念是高雄機場本身的航班擴張、擴充，另外一個就是我從高雄到桃園機場坐飛機，這兩個部分對高雄來講都是非常重要。我們也謝謝民航局，事實上這一陣子我們爭取了很多的航班，民航局都非常幫忙，也很感謝。我現在還有兩個點需要做的，第一個點之前也提過，就是高雄機場到桃園機場的接駁機，這個部分華航以及相關單位也都有在研究了，我們也希望針對這個部分，其實我本來都已經幫忙找好了、已經快完成了，但就是波音飛機還沒來，波音飛機什麼時候可以到？我們可以先針對接駁機把它完成，這是其一。","其二，我在高雄如果可以做預辦登機，不是針對到桃園機場坐飛機的，是針對到高雄機場坐飛機的，世界各國的觀光客如果到我們高雄機場來，或者包括中南部他要到高雄機場來坐飛機，這個時候事實上你要進去兩個小時，現在機場又在擴建，排隊會排很久，所以如果能夠一起做思考，也可以讓其他的縣市，比如有兩個小時在左營高鐵或是高雄火車站可以先辦理預辦登機，我就可以稍微留一個小時的時間在高雄裡面消費、逛逛，也不用在小港機場的空間那麼擠，這兩個方向，部長是不是心裡有概念，或者華航跟民航局可以有一個簡單的答案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所建議的這部分我們來研議，針對有沒有可能從高鐵站或者是火車站來做預辦登機的部分，我們來研議看看，不過這其實牽扯到的介面蠻複雜的，各個介面我們都必須要先溝通，所以讓我們研議一下。"],["許委員智傑：那個波音什麼時候來？"],["高董事長星潢：我們希望它明年年中能夠通過所有的認證，包括我們民航局的認證，正式上線服務，目前我們甚至已經派人到廠裡面直接在那邊盯了。"],["許委員智傑：OK！希望我們高雄到桃園機場的接駁機可以儘快完成。"],["高董事長星潢：這個我們也有在研議。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員發言。","現在請黃健豪委員發言，黃健豪委員發言完畢之後，我們來處理提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0a2ee77e4b924cca141e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07d8a5713b642961ecf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:16:54 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半年沒有開會專案小組我為什麼會這樣講"},{"start":98.135,"end":117.413,"text":"我們今天的專案的主題叫做廉價的一個交通的問題那高鐵的台中站是我們全國高鐵站裡面最繁忙人數旅客數最多 運量最高的站那周遭的一個交通在廉價時間是非常的"},{"start":118.394,"end":129.767,"text":"繁忙而且交通回堵到不管是到74號或者是周邊的交通那當然我也很高興要肯定說這一次高鐵的這個廉價的輸運沒有發生這個大排長龍的狀況表示我們有一些短期的一個因應措施是有奏效"},{"start":136.815,"end":156.368,"text":"但是周邊的交通就要靠我們鐵道局跟台中市政府地方政府這個專案小組要密切的合作才能夠就短期內這個廉價的一個交通的輸運做一個很好的因應所以我才會在今天再詢問我們局長第二個短期的"},{"start":157.288,"end":178.978,"text":"因應之後就要中長期包括我曾經提到中期對於我們這一個台鐵的大慶到新烏日站的這一個鐵路高架化的工程到底能不能趕快來進行因為上次質詢你告訴我要需要如果真的拍板定案到動工到未來完成可能需要七八年的時間"},{"start":180.819,"end":193.273,"text":"我認為這七八年的時間就會讓台中市民整個高鐵特區周遭的交通大亂而且會回堵而且會是一個災難那我們現在要趕快要處理嘛要因應嘛對不對那長期當然有人提到這個74號要再多開一個閘道拉到這個高鐵站"},{"start":201.022,"end":212.288,"text":"那也有人提到說要這個高工舉要做這個國道一號的要開一個閘道連外道路到這個高鐵站那這個我不知道評估結果是什麼"},{"start":212.945,"end":234.563,"text":"跟委員報告補充一下剛剛是三次的平台會議那我們在5月跟7月都有在跟台中市政府5月7月都有在開對 再跟個別去做一些個案的這個研商那第一個就是國醫的這個閘道我們已經補助台中市政府97萬由他們去辦理相可行性的研究如果有結果就跟高工局來提出大概什麼時候會有結果還不知道"},{"start":236.544,"end":255.612,"text":"這個結果部分我再了解之後跟我們報告那第二個就是台74線這個要銜接高鐵二樓這個閘道那經過兩次會議的協調台中市政府也原則上同意可以按照那個公路局的一個偵測閘道的這個要點的程序跟公路局這邊來去提出後續的這樣"},{"start":256.452,"end":263.919,"text":"相關的這些申請跟研究的動作提出申請那先前的評估呢評估是台中市政府做還是你們做台中市政府做那我會提醒喔這個雜道銜接如果專業的評估是可以那我也支持但是切記"},{"start":275.209,"end":300.86,"text":"如果銜接完之後那個閘道未來的交通運量車流量高的時候又會回堵到74號沒有針對74號的快速道路做一個通盤的一個評估的話我是提醒喔不要兩邊的閘道通通回堵上回到這個74號那會是又是另外一個大問題整個高鐵台中站區最根本的問題也就是說進跟出要得到一個平衡"},{"start":301.9,"end":316.937,"text":"那基本上我們當初的這個開發案有補助700萬讓台中市政府在做整體的這個交通的這個動線跟整個人流量車流量的這個相關的估算我想我們會繼續跟台中市政府這邊來做合作局長"},{"start":318.138,"end":332.022,"text":"要拜託你這個專案小組跟地方政府要再密切的溝通那部長你也是在地出身的所以你也最了解這個高鐵特區周遭的一個交通環境我們是要區域性的來解決這個問題部長"},{"start":334.003,"end":362.598,"text":"我們跟地方一定要合作要解決包委員我們當然會跟地方來合作但是要有一個觀念就是說高鐵周邊的道路其實都是地方轄管所以地方政府其實要負起很大的責任我們會出錢補助協助他們來做研究未來整個延期方案由地方政府來做我們中央一定全力來配合這部分沒有問題我有在研究我也有方案未來中央要支持好不好我們會支持好我們一起來解決高鐵客區如果在專業可行方面是沒有問題我們一定支持"},{"start":363.138,"end":379.654,"text":"該是地方政府該是聯外道路要打通要拓寬這個地方政府該有了責任這個我也相信市民會支持那中央也要有責任來補助我地方政府嘛好不好補助台中市嘛那我有方案提出我有解決的這個"},{"start":381.595,"end":399.309,"text":"整個區域交通的一個解決方案的話要中央來支持未來交通的例如說拓寬要看道路的特性然後再來我們中央有多少力氣我會循部長您說的程序上只要是不管是交通部可以補助或是內政部可以補助我都會來尋求拜託部會來支持好不好好 第二個是"},{"start":403.692,"end":423.912,"text":"部長我曾經跟你提過這個南台中另外一個交通瓶頸就是74號銜接國道3號國道6號那邊所以我提一個這個中投63號的一個銜接國道3號的高架系統化的一個閘道的一個交流道的工程那聽說啦我聽公路局請公路局"},{"start":428.325,"end":436.075,"text":"我聽說啦我聽說這個有送到部裡面啊部也送到行政院行政院又退回來給部裡面是不是來來來來局長各位報告那我們有在修正在向上這個呈送"},{"start":446.294,"end":462.776,"text":"我拜託快一點好不好那修正完之後的一個解方到底要如何的解決這一個工程的問題因為整個廉價的這個輸運我發現現在國人這個出國旅 對不起出外旅遊是一日遊"},{"start":463.217,"end":487.268,"text":"那一日有以中張頭來看的話那國道3號國道6號跟74號線那裡是我們中部地區的一個旅遊交通的一個非常嚴重的一個瓶頸那經常塞車那尤其是禮拜六禮拜天就塞在那邊所以我也希望說如果能夠有另外一個分流的解方就是我提的63號線銜接國道3號的高架系統化"},{"start":491.429,"end":517.98,"text":"讓國人旅遊他可以選擇另外一項車流回台中市也好或者是相關的一個運輸的方案也好我想這個是中央一定可以支持的所以我也請部長支持好不好委員這個建議非常好我確實也覺得那個地方有這樣改善的需求那我們目前正在修正方案那當時院那邊退回來其實有一些修正的建議我們依照他的建議再送上去那希望能夠趕快得到核定"},{"start":518.26,"end":544.218,"text":"好那最後一個是在於我們這一次這個很多網路上的謠言對於所謂的交通新規都說是10月起有一些交通上的新規定那謠言很多那當然我們很感謝有媒體在他的這個頁面上跟我們說有謠言終結站來破解相關的網路謠言但是呢我們看到這個"},{"start":545.539,"end":563.854,"text":"地方的群組傳好多好多下一頁包括最近10月起全台國道服務區的測速開罰1.2萬加扣牌雖然我知道我們在我們的網站上有回應但是部長你覺得我們只有在自己的網站上回應這樣夠嗎"},{"start":565.655,"end":584.284,"text":"因為我光是在地方群組已經看到好多個然後呢都說是中央搶錢然後呢全台國道的服務區為什麼我特別提這一件因為廉價的時候國旅我們有六成以上的國人是自己開車開車上國道一定會中間選擇休息站來休息嘛"},{"start":585.004,"end":613.239,"text":"這是一個中繼站休息站那我們最近這一次連假國道服務區的這個經濟很夯聽說營收創新高表示什麼國人很多人會選擇去國道休息站休息跟去逛一逛那這樣子的謠言讓大家很多人覺得說中央真的是我們立法委員修了這個新的交通規定所以要跟民眾搶錢部長像這樣子網路謠言要如何快速確實的"},{"start":614.9,"end":636.461,"text":"說清楚報告委員因為謠言實在很多會透過多元的管道不只是網路的一個圖卡我們也希望用圖卡透過社群的方式或者是透過大家的LINE群組的方式拜託大家去幫忙推廣新的事實的狀態是那部長那我可不可以先要求從交通部的相關單位跟同仁自己做起"},{"start":637.445,"end":659.096,"text":"這個我們會做我們要建立起這個圖卡你做的你要闢謠那你要有出去的管道啊你如果只有在自己的網頁上跟大家澄清有幾個人會去看那我們如果要透過LINE的群組快速的反應跟快速的澄清我們自己交通部的自己的同仁是不是可以先做起從自己的身上所有的地方群組開始發送我們盡量來做"},{"start":662.017,"end":681.915,"text":"我覺得不是只有這一個謠言是我們有很多交通部相關的網路謠言我們都應該要從自己自身做起養成什麼轉傳正確的資訊給市民給各個地方的群組這個是我們可以做的也應該要做的好不好這個我們來努力好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時16分）謝謝召委，我們請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：在進入我今天的質詢之前，我先關心兩件地方的建設，第一、我們很多人都在擔憂高鐵臺中站周邊的交通狀況，我想我在這裡質詢已經是第三、第四次了，我們也實地會勘、考察過高鐵特區周遭的道路，考察、會勘的時候鐵道局楊局長也有到現場，我們提到了幾個短、中、長期的方案，短期之間我們跟臺中市政府成立了一個橫向的聯席專案小組，楊局長在裡面，請問一下你們專案小組開了幾次會？現在對於短期的方案要怎麼做？以你們的交通專業，可以怎麼做？"],["陳部長世凱：好，請局長。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，專案小組開過三次會議。"],["何委員欣純：最近一次是什麼時候？"],["楊局長正君：第一次應該是在去年的11月。"],["何委員欣純：那第二次、第三次？"],["楊局長正君：今年的1月跟4月。"],["何委員欣純：那現在是10月，所以有半年沒有開會了？"],["楊局長正君：都有開過會。"],["何委員欣純：專案小組半年沒有開會……"],["楊局長正君：對不起，我再補充一下……"],["何委員欣純：我為什麼會這樣講？今天的專案主題叫做連假的交通問題，高鐵的臺中站是我們全國高鐵站裡面最繁忙、旅客數最多、運量最高的站，周遭的交通在連假期間非常的繁忙，而且車輛經常回堵，不管是到74號或其他周邊道路，當然我也很高興，要肯定這一次高鐵的連假輸運沒有發生大排長龍的狀況，表示我們有一些短期因應措施奏效了，但是周邊的交通就要靠鐵道局跟臺中市政府的專案小組密切合作，才能夠就短期內連假的交通疏運做一個很好的因應，所以我才會在今天再詢問局長。第二、短期的因應之後就要有中長期的規劃，包括我曾經提到中期對於臺鐵的大慶站到新烏日站的鐵路高架化工程到底能不能趕快進行，因為上次質詢的時候，你告訴我如果真的拍板定案，從動工到完成可能需要七、八年的時間，我認為這七、八年的時間就會讓整個高鐵特區周遭的交通大亂，而且會回堵，那會是一個災難，我們現在要趕快處理、因應。長期當然有人提到74號要再多開一個匝道拉到高鐵站，也有人提到要高公局在國道一號開一個匝道，鋪設聯外道路到高鐵站，我不知道現在評估結果是什麼。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，補充一下剛剛是三次的平臺會議，然後我們在5月跟7月都有再跟台中市政府去做一些個案的研商，第一個就是國一的匝道，我們已經補助臺中市政府97萬，由他們去辦理可行性研究，如果有結果，就向高公局提出……"],["何委員欣純：大概什麼時候會有結果？還不知道？"],["楊局長正君：結果的部分我在了解之後再跟委員報告。第二個就是台74線要銜接高鐵二樓的匝道，經過兩次會議的協調，臺中市政府原則上也同意，按照公路局增設匝道要點規定的程序，跟公路局提出後續的相關的申請跟研究。"],["何委員欣純：提出申請，那先前的評估呢？評估是臺中市政府做還是你們做？"],["楊局長正君：臺中市政府做。"],["何委員欣純：那我會提醒，這個匝道銜接如果專業的評估是可以的，那我也支持，但是切記如果銜接完之後，那個匝道未來的交通運量、車流量高的時候，又會回堵到74號，如果沒有針對74號的快速道路做一個通盤評估的話，我是提醒，不要兩邊的匝道通通回堵到74號，那又會是另外一個大問題。"],["楊局長正君：了解，整個高鐵臺中站區最根本的問題，也就是進跟出要得到一個平衡，基本上當初這個開發案有補助700萬，讓臺中市政府再做整體交通動線、人流量、車流量的相關估算，我想我們會繼續跟臺中市政府來合作。"],["何委員欣純：局長，要拜託你，這個專案小組跟地方政府要再密切的溝通。"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["何委員欣純：部長，你也是在地出生的，所以你也最了解高鐵特區周遭的交通環境，我們是要區域性的來解決這個問題，部長一定要跟地方合作來解決。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們當然會跟地方來合作，但是要有一個觀念，就是高鐵周邊的道路其實都是地方轄管，所以地方政府其實要負起很大的責任，我們會出錢補助，協助他們來做研究，未來整個研析方案由地方政府來做，我們中央一定全力來配合。"],["何委員欣純：部長，你說囉，我有在研究，我也有方案，未來中央要支持，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會支持。"],["何委員欣純：好，我們一起來解決高鐵特區……"],["陳部長世凱：如果在專業可行方面是沒有問題的，我們一定支持。"],["何委員欣純：當然，聯外道路要打通、要拓寬，該是地方政府該負的責任，我也相信市民會支持，但中央也要有責任來補助地方政府，好不好？補助臺中市嘛！那我有方案提出，我有解決區域交通的方案的話，要中央來支持啊！"],["陳部長世凱：目前的研析方案，我們有補助。但是未來交通的改善例如拓寬，要看道路的特性還有我們中央有多少……"],["何委員欣純：不會，那個會循部長您說的程序，不管是交通部可以補助的，或是內政部可以補助的，我都會來拜託部會來支持。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：第二、部長，我曾經跟你提過南臺中另外一個交通瓶頸，就是74號銜接國道三號、國道六號那邊，我提了一個中投63號銜接國道三號高架系統化的匝道、交流道工程，請問公路局，我聽說這有送到部裡面，部也送到行政院了，但是行政院又退回來給部裡面，是不是？"],["林局長福山：對，我們有再修正，並向上呈送。"],["何委員欣純：拜託！快一點，好不好？那修正完之後，到底要如何解決這個工程問題？因為整個連假的疏運，我發現現在國人出外旅遊是一日遊，那一日遊以中彰投來看的話，國道三號、國道六號跟74號線那裡是我們中部地區旅遊、交通上一個非常嚴重的瓶頸，經常塞車，尤其禮拜六、禮拜天就塞在那邊，所以我也希望如果能夠有另外一個分流的解方，就是我提的63號線銜接國道3號的高架系統化，讓國人旅遊可以選擇另外一項，不論是車流上，回臺中市也好或者相關的運輸方案也好，我想這個一定是中央可以支持的，我也請部長支持，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：委員這個建議非常好，我確實也覺得那個地方有這樣改善的需求，我們目前正在修正方案。當時院那邊退回來其實有一些修正的建議，我們依照他的建議再送上去，希望能夠趕快得到核定。"],["何委員欣純：好。最後，網路上有很多謠言是針對這一次所謂的交通新規，都說是10月起有一些交通上的新規定，謠言很多。當然我們很感謝有媒體在它的頁面上跟我們說有謠言終結站，來破解相關的網路謠言，但是我們看到地方的群組傳了好多好多，包括最近、10月起全臺國道服務區測速開罰1.2萬加扣牌。雖然我知道你們在你們的網站上有回應，但是部長覺得你們只有在自己的網站上回應，這樣夠嗎？因為我光是在地方群組已經看到好多個，都說是中央搶錢、全臺國道的服務區等等，為什麼我會特別提這一件？因為連假時候的國旅，有六成以上的國人是自己開車，如果開車上國道，中間一定會選擇休息站來休息，休息站是一個中繼站。最近這一次連假國道服務區的經濟很夯，聽說營收創新高，表示很多國人會選擇去國道休息站休息跟逛一逛。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：這樣的謠言讓很多人覺得立法委員修了新的交通規定，所以真的是中央要跟民眾搶錢。部長，像這樣的網路謠言要如何快速、確實說清楚？"],["陳部長世凱：因為謠言實在很多，我們會透過多元的管道，不只是網路的圖卡，也希望用圖卡透過社群的方式或者透過LINE群組的方式，拜託大家幫忙推廣新的事實狀態是什麼。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我可不可以先要求從交通部相關單位跟同仁自己做起？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們會做。"],["何委員欣純：我們要建立起你做了這個圖卡，闢謠要有出去的管道，你如果只有在自己的網頁上跟大家澄清，有幾個人會去看？如果要透過LINE群組快速反應跟澄清，是不是可以從交通部自己的同仁先做起，從自己的身上、所有的地方群組開始發送？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，這個沒問題，我們盡量來做。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得不是只有這個謠言……"],["陳部長世凱：謠言非常多！"],["何委員欣純：而是有很多交通部相關的網路謠言，你們都應該要從自身做起，養成轉傳正確的資訊給市民、給各個地方的群組，這個是你們可以做的，也應該要做的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來努力。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，何欣純委員發言完畢。","現在請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163908","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163908","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff08dae13ec4b92dad741e1338d15ff711a66f4e64ae755f07d84ce2c86cf23990f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:06:14 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報告委員在今年跟明年是整個交通部在交通建設上面公共建設的工程預算的比較高峰期今年跟明年那包含地方捷運的需求在今年跟明年也是最高峰的階段那很不幸剛好我們遇到了這個才化法的這個修訂跟修正那中央"},{"start":263.891,"end":279.904,"text":"不會其實我們在這個整體的預算的規模來講的話確實是比較吃緊那也就是說我們在整體的預算到達需求到達高峰的時候我們的預算沒有辦法跟著拉上去甚至有可能會有一些減少"},{"start":280.945,"end":297.705,"text":"那這個部分對我們來講其實也就會比較困擾一點尤其是對於地方的補助因為過去中央確實有一些餘力跟力氣跟力量就統籌分配款就均衡台灣的角度來分配給地方來協助地方做一些建設"},{"start":298.786,"end":326.494,"text":"那現在因為透過財化法的這個分配之後其實中央這方面的利器跟力道其實相對於過去是減少了不少那我們自己的交通部自己的工程預算我們自己也正在盤點那哪些工程會受到影響會延後的部分我們也正在盤點當中那對於地方的補助我們也正在審慎的評估未來該怎麼樣去因應地方的補助的需求"},{"start":327.228,"end":348.896,"text":"是就是我們也希望就是在有限的裁員能夠發揮最大的一個效益那當然就是過去同仇分配稅款由中央就是來做一個執行的時候就是對於均衡台灣的話可以有比較彈性的一個運用那其實我們看過去就是在蔡總統執政一直到現在賴總統執政其實對於"},{"start":352.257,"end":376.313,"text":"各地方的一個補助我們的感受就是真的是沒有再分政黨那以彰化縣來看其實目前彰化縣有好幾件的重大交通建設在進行當中那已經有完工的就是東張道路從花壇一直到二水這條道路的一個新闢讓彰化縣的一個縱向的一個交通更加的一個順暢"},{"start":377.233,"end":400.681,"text":"那我們看到這個大概分了三段那就是一整條的一個道路整個我們在中央補助款就是都高達到80%就是有80%有50%那50%這部分應該就是用地徵收費是有地方政府負擔比較多的一個部分那包括目前和美的美寮路這個生活圈道路的一個"},{"start":401.661,"end":430.553,"text":"已經剛動工在進行當中我們的中央也是高達81%的一個補助款所以有中央的一個挹注對地方交通建設的一個推行才能夠順利的一個完成所以我們在擔心說未來我們在就是中央的這個經費在少了之後未來對整個地方交通建設一個推動是不是就是會有受到很大的一個局限跟限制"},{"start":431.213,"end":458.946,"text":"報告委員確實我們交通部目前我們自己的工程預算也有減少也有不足的地方那當然對於地方的補助對我們來說就會相對比較吃力一點那這個吃力的狀況我們目前也正在盤點說未來在有限的資源裡面我們該怎麼樣去協助地方那不過要很坦誠的說未來的資源也會減少那金額也一定會減少所以我們能夠資源的這個佔比您所說的這個"},{"start":460.046,"end":470.095,"text":"像河美鎮的美寮路的這個拓寬工程中央協助到了81%那未來在這樣子的工程方面我們大概就會沒有辦法有這樣的力道"},{"start":470.825,"end":495.437,"text":"是當然就是說我們對於站在地方的角度我們都希望就是說重大建設能夠順利的一個進行跟完成那如果說少了中央的一個挹注的話不曉得地方是不是有那個能力來完成那當然就是說在中央剛剛部長也有說會審慎的評估所以我們也希望未來再有這個就是裁員"},{"start":496.718,"end":518.018,"text":"充裕就是說可以運用的狀況之下對地方的一個補助還是要請交通部大力的一個支持當然有足夠的力量我們當然是全力會協助地方是那因為我們就是說在目前整個大的一個縱向和橫向的交通建設幾乎都完成或者是已經在進行當中那對於整個地方"},{"start":518.999,"end":540.797,"text":"平景交通平景的一個打通還是要陸續的去完成那目前之前在去年我們有透過交通委員會的一個考察的幾個地點就是包括高鐵彰化站的周邊地區的聯絡道路就是高鐵橋下的一個橫向就是東西向的一個道路的一個新闢還有"},{"start":543.106,"end":566.377,"text":"田尾富隆路的一个拓宽还有就是园林市的大劳路拓宽这是临近临错渣道的一个联络道路还有第三个就是园林大道的延伸道三角路137线这就是可以疏解园林市区的交通流量的这个道路这三件都已经在交通委员会安排考察的时候都已经有看过了"},{"start":566.977,"end":591.799,"text":"那應該就是目前不曉得彰化縣政府是不是有提報那個可行性評估的計畫跟我們報告一下這個部分我再確認一下但是因為今年生活圈的一個審議的部分因為之前預算通過的比較晚所以目前這個局裡面在辦理這個審議那這三個案子我再這個就是說再回去確認一下"},{"start":592.6,"end":595.024,"text":"那如果說這個帳號簽證我還沒提的我問他我們會來這個促請他這個提出我們再來依規定再來做審議"},{"start":601.204,"end":628.057,"text":"是因為就是說要先做一個可行性評估才有後續的一個興建的一個工程的一個推動所以這個第一步非常重要是不是在地方彰化縣政府如果有提送這個可行性評估的一個申請補助的時候是不是也請江東部能夠給予支持讓這個計畫可以啟動好我們會用支持的角度來思考這幾件事是好那謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時6分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。本席首先針對有關連續假期，交通部對於交通疏運的情形來請教部長。我們知道從9月底的教師節一直到10月底，又有4個連續假日。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員素月：連續假日對於南北的交通運輸，應該是面臨很大的挑戰，我們已經過了2個連續假日，這次中秋節連續假日的疏運，應該是旅運人次創高峰，臺鐵跟高鐵的旅運人次達到了555.8萬。交通部這邊對於疏運的情況是不是可以做一個簡單的報告？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，我們其實都有預先做準備，雖然這次的放假跟過去非常不一樣，臺灣從來沒有經歷過連續4個連續假期，4個周末都是3天連假，過去沒有經歷過，所以這也很考驗我們透過數據跟AI系統做大數據分析過程中的精準度，目前也正在驗證當中。","我們所做的準備是先透過運量的預估，再做車次跟人力的安排，我們當然都是希望料敵從寬，用最寬裕的方式來面對整個疏運的狀況，疏運過程一定會有一些變化跟變數，當遇到變化跟變數的時候，其實每一個單位都有去盤點自己的風險點，遇到風險點的時候該怎麼應變，我們也都有預做準備，所以在遇到風險的時候該怎麼克服，其實都有預做準備。前面兩、三次連假的疏運，目前看起來秩序上大致還算良好。"],["陳委員素月：是，這2次我們看到軌道的運輸應該都蠻順暢，國道部分看起來也沒有特別壅塞？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這2次看起來其實都蠻有秩序的，也感謝國人都很配合，整個秩序上大家都共同來維護，其實蠻順暢的。"],["陳委員素月：事實上剛剛部長提到AI大數據的提供，我覺得這很重要，因為像在地方、中部地區，我們在跑行程的時候，會特別去看一下高速公路的車流狀況，如果是紅色的時候，我們就會避免上國道。我想這個對於整個地方的區域性替代道路的規劃，或者是資訊的揭露，就非常重要，可以讓國道的交通比較順暢，所以我覺得也是要透過交通科技的輔助，這非常重要。在這2次連假的疏運，要感謝交通部各單位，包括高鐵、臺鐵或者是國道等等的交通同仁的努力，也要感謝大家的辛苦。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：接下來我想請教一下，我們知道這個會期就是預算的會期，我們要審明年度的預算，本席有注意到在9月18日的時候，伍次長應該是在記者會上有提到，交通部公共工程的預算明年度少了一半，少了一半的數字很龐大，我不曉得狀況確實是這樣子嗎？如果真的少了一半，未來對交通部推動重大交通建設的時候會有什麼影響，是不是可以說明一下？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，今年跟明年是交通部在交通建設上，公共建設工程預算的比較高峰期，包含地方捷運的需求在今年跟明年也是最高峰的階段。很不幸剛好我們遇到了財劃法的修訂跟修正，中央部會其實在整體預算規模來講的話，確實是比較吃緊，也就是說我們在需求到達高峰的時候，預算沒有辦法跟著拉上去，甚至有可能會有一些減少，這個部分對我們來講，其實也會比較困擾一點。尤其是對於地方的補助，因為過去中央確實有一些餘力跟力量，就統籌分配款以均衡臺灣的角度來分配給地方，協助地方做一些建設，現在因為透過財劃法的分配之後，中央這方面的力氣跟力道，相對於過去減少了不少。我們交通部自己的工程預算也正在盤點，哪些工程會受到影響、會延後的部分也正在盤點當中。對於地方的補助，我們也正在審慎地評估，未來該怎麼樣去因應地方的補助需求。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們也希望有限的財源能夠發揮最大的效益。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：當然過去統籌分配稅款由中央執行的時候，對於均衡臺灣的話，可以有比較彈性的運用。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：其實我們看過去蔡總統執政，一直到現在賴總統執政，對於各地方的補助，我們的感受就是真的是沒有在分政黨。以彰化縣來看，其實目前彰化縣有好幾件重大交通建設在進行當中，已經有完工的就是東彰道路，從花壇一直到二水，這條道路的新闢讓彰化縣的縱向交通更加順暢。我們看到大概分了3段，一整條的道路，中央補助款都高達到80%，就是有80%、50%，50%部分應該就是用地徵收費是由地方政府負擔比較多的部分，包括目前和美的美寮路生活圈道路剛剛動工，在進行當中，中央也是高達81%的補助款，所以有中央的挹注，地方交通建設的推行才能夠順利完成。我們擔心未來中央的經費少了之後，未來對整個地方交通建設推動，是不是會有受到很大的侷限跟限制？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，確實目前我們交通部自己的工程預算也有減少，也有不足的地方，當然對於地方的補助，對我們來說就會相對比較吃力一點，這個吃力的狀況，我們目前也正在盤點，未來在有限的資源裡面，我們該怎麼樣去協助地方。不過要很坦誠地說，未來的資源也會減少，金額也一定會減少，所以我們能夠支援的占比，您所說的像和美鎮的美寮路拓寬工程，中央協助到了81%，未來在這樣子的工程方面，我們大概就沒有辦法有這樣的力道。"],["陳委員素月：是，當然我們站在地方的角度，都希望重大建設能夠順利的進行跟完成，如果說少了中央的挹注，不曉得地方是不是有能力來完成？在中央，剛剛部長也有說會審慎地評估，所以我們也希望未來在財源充裕就是可以運用的狀況之下，對地方的補助還是要請交通部大力的支持。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，有足夠的力量，我們當然會全力協助地方。"],["陳委員素月：是，因為在目前整個大的縱向跟橫向的交通建設幾乎都完成，或者是已經在進行當中，對於整個地方交通瓶頸的打通，還是要陸續地去完成。去年我們交通委員會考察了幾個地點，包括高鐵彰化站周邊地區的聯絡道路，就是高鐵橋下橫向就是東西向道路的興闢，還有田尾富農路的拓寬，還有員林市大饒路拓寬，這是鄰近林厝匝道的一個聯絡道路，第三個就是員林大道延伸到山腳路（縣道137線），這些都是可以紓解員林市區交通流量的道路，這三件交通委員會考察的時候都已經看過了，不曉得目前彰化縣政府是不是有提報可行性評估的計畫？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，這個部分我再確認一下，但是因為今年生活圈審議的部分，之前預算通過得比較晚，所以目前局裡面在辦理審議，這三個案子我回去再確認一下，如果彰化縣政府還沒提出，我們會促請它提出，我們再依規定審議。"],["陳委員素月：好，因為要先做一個可行性評估，才有後續的興建工程的推動，這第一步非常重要，所以如果彰化縣政府有提送可行性評估，申請補助的時候，是不是也請交通部能夠給予支持，讓這個計畫可以啟動？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會用支持的角度來思考這幾件事。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","現在請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0f28762bdb249450c2b1f00580874b15566f4e64ae755f07deffd30bbe266b48c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:54:53 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是的我們一定會處理 好因為今天時間的關係我就先讓部長先回應到這裡好那接下來我請教一下這個教育部部長好請鄭部長好鄭部長教育部好時間可以 慢慢來我們時間暫停沒關係來請部長慢慢來"},{"start":117.677,"end":137.216,"text":"委員好部長午安我想這次我們的教育部也編列了國安任性特別預算在教育部在教育的部分的用途上面我想我們特別編了200億分別是用在提升大專院校的經營另外還有一個強化高教跟產業的合作這兩方面"},{"start":138.337,"end":157.007,"text":"就是我們編了各100億的這樣子的一個經費啦但是呢我想這個這筆錢其實橫跨了這個校務的補助那麼老師的留任那另外還有一些產學合作等等多樣的一個項目其實範圍是很大的但是呢在執行的細項其實我們並不是那麼的清楚的羅列喔"},{"start":157.407,"end":180.122,"text":"那麼在這個部分來講其實在針對所謂的特別預算其實應該是比較屬於緊急或者是特定的一個任務那但是像校務經營或者是教師留任的這些獎金是屬於長期的一個支出那我們當然也會擔心說我們是不是把所謂的用預算然後來"},{"start":181.924,"end":205.442,"text":"應該是說來蓋住我們這些必須要長期支出的預算只是為了數字漂亮而已喔那在這裡我提出一些問題喔就是關於我們的這個消務經營的一個補助那教育部我們規劃了投入65億那其中的他的準則是依照學生人口數的一個規模來做核算的一個補助但是在細項的部分其實並沒有交代得非常的清楚喔"},{"start":205.802,"end":228.015,"text":"那我想要問的是如果依照學生人數的一個補助學生比較少或者資源比較弱弱勢的一些學校他們拿的會更少那這個部分其實會不會拉大整個所有的資源的一個落差我們今天其實沒有時間讓部長好好的回答但是針對這個部分我建議這個教育部應該要公開各校補助金額跟計算的一個方式"},{"start":229.075,"end":256.633,"text":"那我們能夠這樣子做才能夠避免這個資源全部集中在所謂的大型的學校而不是為了要填補這個赤字然後忽略了整體在教學體質上的一個基本的一個問題這個是第一個問題那再來就是我提到的就是三年內不漲學費這看起來是好事看起來是好事但是對於某一些私校來講它有可能會變成是一種壓力喔因為弱勢學生比較多"},{"start":257.373,"end":284.185,"text":"支出又要比較高相對的來講會不會越補越補就撐不下去我也擔心這樣的問題這個事後我們再請教育部給我一個比較完整的謝謝委員提醒我想對經濟弱勢或者因為這一次整個國際其實大學它確實是在教學儀器設備在整個經營上確實是面臨比較大的挑戰因為我們知道國民教育中小學都是公務預算裡面"},{"start":285.265,"end":305.047,"text":"就能夠全力來支持但是我們因應這個大學我們看到日本也編了一千億歐盟也編了五億的這一個都是用來延攬人才我想都看出世界各國在因應這個高等教育在人才的延攬包括幾多的營運上還有弱勢的一個照顧我想這個"},{"start":306.868,"end":332.386,"text":"那再來第四點就是精進效務的經營的具體的財務的指標會是什麼這個我們事後再請教育部再跟我們來做更詳細的一個說明那第二點其實呢就是教育部在這一次我們特別講到了我們關於人才留任跟產學的一個合作那就高教人才永續發展的部分以及我們的高教產業的一個合作的部分我擔心的是這個所謂的應該是說"},{"start":336.365,"end":360.071,"text":"老師留任的獎金那他的標準發放的標準是什麼再來就是如果這位老師他中途他離職了是不是有追回的一些機制再來我們是不是都把所謂的資源集中在台清教程等等這六所的所謂的研究型的大學這也是我擔心的一個問題喔那我想的只有公開透明明確界定用途這200億"},{"start":362.131,"end":379.629,"text":"才能夠真正的落實台灣教育的一個品質跟我們的國家的一個韌性今天因為時間的關係那當然這個後續其實我們也希望有更多的機會可以跟教育部好好來討論這個部分好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝署長可以 可以 請書面答覆好 謝謝 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記者是媒體其實記者就是一個充其量我一樣這樣講因為本席也是媒體出身比如說"},{"start":88.376,"end":114.002,"text":"法務部有新聞或者是其他的司法機關有新聞他就去跑新聞所以說為了讓記者採訪方便會提供記者室給記者使用是嗎是的言下之意記者他並不是法務部的成員但是記者竟然可以糾戰鵲巢可以拿法務部的地址來作為通訊地址甚至於來簽訂合約嗎"},{"start":117.189,"end":146.204,"text":"這部分我們有發生說謝姓記者的簽訂合約的事這部分我們沒有授權也不知道因為本席喔在這個潘孟安秘書長被假新聞爆料的過程當中非常清楚的跟我的鄰居也拿到了這一張合約上面的地址台北市中正區重慶南路一段130號6樓部長清楚這個地址是什麼地址嗎"},{"start":147.109,"end":160.236,"text":"這個六樓是我們今天辦公室是提供給司法記者不是給個人使用它是一個公用的一個區域所以因為司法記者蠻多的應該有一百多應該有部長您看這個合約啦它只有通訊地址那就寫明了謝信恩去跟人家簽約的時候就用了法務部記者室的地址我認為"},{"start":174.795,"end":197.003,"text":"我不用法來跟你講而是您認為這樣的事情一旦公布之後法務部不用態度嗎所以言下之意以後我只要是記者我就可以用法務部的地址來任意做使用本席是記者出來我當然知道記者在採訪的過程中需要一個空間來發稿這是一種服務也是一種互相的體諒尤其是平面的記者多數會在現地發稿電視台的記者"},{"start":200.424,"end":225.941,"text":"才會需要回到他們的公司來做發稿甚至於有的時候採訪時間比較早比較晚 耽誤了用餐時間你說要叫個UBER 叫個外送沒有問題 但是像這種狗仔記者就用法務部的記者室來承租車位來做監控甚至於潛入地下室裡面去拍這樣一張地下室的照片"},{"start":227.478,"end":255.538,"text":"回過頭來法務部認為這樣的做法可以嗎如果法務部現在沒有態度未來就是昭告天下最危險的地方就是最安全的地方法務部重慶南路一段130號不管幾樓我都可以送東西進去所有的違禁品我可以收所有的不法物件我可以在這裡用這個地址來使用您身為法務部的最高負責人"},{"start":256.559,"end":263.238,"text":"一個不是這個單位的組成份子可以如此使用嗎可以如此訂約嗎"},{"start":265.609,"end":292.543,"text":"這部分這是他個人的行為那我們是非常的他用以法務部的這個六樓的當作他簽約地址這種表示這個是很不應該的這個很不應該那我想這是一個當然這個是我們沒有去介入但是我們希望我們也跟那個記者聯繫會有一就有二所以未來如果沒有一個明確的界定"},{"start":293.383,"end":321.697,"text":"這已經是昭告天下以後就可以這樣處理喔我只要是法務部記者聯誼會的記者我就可以這樣做嗎那未來謝信恩凱思國際現在因為王逸川去提告了那麼當時不起訴就是因為說凱思國際是一個媒體所以媒體可以跟監可以跟著王逸川不斷的去拍攝他的私人的照片現在凱思國際如果回聘謝信恩"},{"start":322.257,"end":350.628,"text":"那麼請問謝信江可不可以再度回到記者室成為記者然後甚至於繼續用法務部的地址而且甚至於可以入無人之境請問可以嗎這部分他那個記者的那個我們出入的那個已經註銷了也就是說他現在沒辦法進來了那剛才我也有提到說他如果說到另外一家就取得那個記者的這些的資格 是不是可以進來我想我們這邊在因為我們那個司法記者不是只有法務部的司法記者"},{"start":351.448,"end":369.898,"text":"它是很多的司法機關包括司法院台北地院相關的這些的司法機關的記者那我想我們再邀集這些相關的司法機關我們來研商看看做如何的一個管理來加強這些管理我的時間已經到了我只是把"},{"start":370.998,"end":383.265,"text":"這個謝謝主席給我最後做結論就是我把問題點出來我希望這個漏洞亡羊補牢要補起來好嗎是謝謝那也把你們後續商量的結果或結論讓本席知道好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1145,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時48分）謝謝主席。主席，有請法務部長。"],["主席：請法務部部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。第一次在司法及法制委員會質詢您，想透過對您的質詢來釐清一些事情。法務部是行政機關，這個行政機關的最高負責人就是部長，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，是部長。"],["林委員楚茵：請問一下法務部的組成包括哪些成員？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們內部的組織嗎？"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們內部的組織有各司處，另外還有部外的機關，今天都有來，包括調查局、廉政署、執行署、矯正署等。"],["林委員楚茵：還包括一些公務人員。"],["鄭部長銘謙：法醫研究所、司法官學院，還有檢察機關。"],["林委員楚茵：好。所以在您剛剛說的這些機關當中，不是檢察官，不然就是公務人員，甚至是約聘僱人員，對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好。記者屬於法務部的成員嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：記者不是，記者是媒體人員。"],["林委員楚茵：好，記者是媒體。本席這麼說好了，因為本席也是媒體出身，比如法務部有新聞，或者其他司法機關有新聞，記者就去跑新聞，所以為了讓記者採訪方便，會提供記者室給記者使用，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是的。"],["林委員楚茵：言下之意記者並不是法務部的成員，但是記者竟然可以鳩占鵲巢，拿法務部的地址做為通訊地址，甚至簽訂合約。"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確有發生謝姓記者簽訂合約的事，但這部分我們沒有授權，也不知道，我們沒有同意這樣做。"],["林委員楚茵：在潘孟安秘書長被假新聞爆料的過程當中，本席也有拿到這一張合約，非常清楚的，上面的地址是臺北市中正區重慶南路一段130號6樓。部長知道這是什麼地址嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：6樓是我們的辦公室，提供司法記者使用，不是給個人使用，它是一個公用的區域，因為司法記者滿多的，應該有一百多人。"],["林委員楚茵：部長，請您看這個合約，上面只有寫通訊地址，謝幸恩和人家簽約的時候就是用法務部記者室的地址。本席不從法的層面和你討論，您認為這樣的事情公布後，法務部不用表示態度嗎？所以以後只要是記者，就可以任意使用法務部的地址？本席是記者出身，當然知道記者在採訪過程中需要一個空間發稿，這是一種服務，也是互相體諒。尤其是平面記者，多數會在現地發稿，電視台的記者才需要回到他們的公司發稿。","甚至有時候採訪時間比較早或比較晚，耽誤用餐時間，如果叫Uber外送也沒有問題。但是像這種例子，狗仔記者用法務部的記者室承租車位進行監控，甚至潛入地下室拍照，法務部認可這樣的做法嗎？如果法務部現在沒有表示態度，等於是昭告天下最危險的地方就是最安全的地方，法務部的地址，重慶南路一段130號，不管是幾樓，我們都可以送東西進去，所有違禁品都可以收，所有不法物件都可以使用這個地址收受。您身為法務部的最高負責人，一個不是這個單位的組成分子，可以如此使用嗎？可以如此訂約嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是他個人的行為，他以法務部6樓當作簽約地址，我們鄭重表示這是很不應該的。當然，這部分我們沒有介入，但是我們和記者聯誼會也有溝通過，要求以後不要再有這樣的行為。"],["林委員楚茵：有一就有二，如果沒有明確界定，就是昭告天下以後都可以這樣處理，只要是法務部記者聯誼會的記者就可以這樣做嗎？謝幸恩和凱思國際，現在是因為王義川去提告，當時不起訴是因為凱思國際是一個媒體，所以媒體可以跟監，可以跟著王義川，不斷去拍攝他的私人照片。現在凱思國際如果回聘謝幸恩，請問謝幸恩可不可以再度成為記者並回到記者室，甚至繼續使用法務部的地址如入無人之境？請問可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他的記者出入證已經註銷了，也就是說他現在沒辦法進來。剛才委員有提到，如果他到另外一家公司取得記者的資格，是不是可以進來？因為司法記者不是只有跑法務部，還有很多司法機關，包括司法院、臺北地院等相關司法機關的記者，我們會再邀集相關司法機關研商如何加強管理。"],["林委員楚茵：本席的發言時間已經到了，謝謝主席給本席時間做結論。本席現在是把問題點出來，你們要亡羊補牢把這個漏洞補起來，好嗎？謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：你們後續商量的結果或結論也要讓本席知道，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。因為司法及法制委員會希望能夠嚴格遵守會議質詢的時間。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00001"}}},{"id":"163905","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163905","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff08561e2af5078baa92b1f00580874b155656cd2b685a6ecb891a35537b01a31fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:48:08 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發了沒美國也發全世界到處都在發"},{"start":233.12,"end":251.785,"text":"人家速度很快我們現在還在討論拿到一萬塊有五種方式可以拿到這一萬塊是五種還是六種一般就是有五種方式跟112年六千塊是同樣的一個方式來發放"},{"start":253.089,"end":265.138,"text":"因為你們的速度太慢了所以本席選擇我這一次可能應該也會領啦但我領出來 我要捐出來我捐給財政部財政部缺不缺錢"},{"start":269.466,"end":290.231,"text":"沒有捐給財政部 財政部也沒有這個捐款的一個專戶因為每一次遇到討論這個財政的問題你們都看起來就是哇 我沒錢沒錢你沒錢其實是有錢的去年稅收超徵 那我請問部長你今年稅收有沒有超徵"},{"start":291.554,"end":319.158,"text":"跟委員報告114年到今年的8月底為止我們的時增數其實是低於去年同期的時增數那我們的預算數又比去年多編了940比去年的時增數增加947億比去年時增數還高947億但我們今年的到8月底時增數是比去年少了300多億的對 所以接下來就是11 12月你有沒有信心達成目標"},{"start":320.359,"end":332.052,"text":"這個很具有一個挑戰性今年的我們的時增數能不能達到預算數要看今年九月那個暫繳稅款就營所稅的一個暫繳稅款的金額多少我大概算了一下今年稅收還是會超增的我希望說今年如果超增明年超增你可以普發現金常態化"},{"start":340.822,"end":360.744,"text":"不要說因為政黨輪替該還給民眾的超收的這個稅收本來就還給人民嘛沒有所謂的超收每一塊錢的稅款都是依法徵收的沒有所謂的超收好 那請問部長我把這一萬塊捐給財政部大概什麼時候可以做到"},{"start":361.941,"end":362.661,"text":"接下來請郭益勤委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":968,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時48分）謝謝主席。在座出列席官員、各位委員，大家好。主席，可否請主計長、財政部莊部長、經濟部龔部長？"],["主席：請陳主計長、經濟部龔部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：開會很重要，「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」，相關還有普發現金的問題，總金額是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：普發現金的部分是財政部主責，它是2,360億。"],["羅委員明才：沒有，今天是講特別預算，上面不是寫五千多億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：全部是5,500億，本來是……"],["羅委員明才：5,700億？"],["陳主計長淑姿：5,500億。"],["羅委員明才：我們都知道，去年的稅收超徵5,280億。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這5,280億其中有一部分是屬於地方政府，所以這個部分要分給地方政府，我們中央的部分才有三千七百多億而已。"],["羅委員明才：對，扣掉後你還有三千七百多億。再來，稅收年年超徵，事實上，這些錢如果累積加起來，你有沒有算過10年下來稅收一共會超徵幾兆？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分是不是由財政部來說明？"],["羅委員明才：好，請財政部莊部長。部長，按理說，這10年來稅收超徵的部分也將近1兆8,000億啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，沒有所謂的超徵，只是我們的實徵數有超過預算數，如果超過預算數的話，事實上，我們第一個會優先還債，然後再累計到我們的歲計賸餘，所以沒有像委員說的有這麼多的錢啦！"],["羅委員明才：部長你看，我們在同樣的地方也在討論普發現金1萬塊，你這次的預算提出來，到底要不要普發現金1萬給所有的民眾？"],["莊部長翠雲：特別條例就已經規定了，所以這一次的特別預算也有把普發現金1萬塊納進來，編了2,360億。"],["羅委員明才：所以我們是不是要掌聲鼓勵你們，感謝財政部部長，還有主計長也算啦！感謝你們！","可是大家的問題又來了，這個問題已經講了快一年多了，很多民眾都在說，為什麼我們的速度會那麼慢？而且去年同樣的地點在討論1萬元的時候，不是有一些委員就跳出來說不要、不行、不能做、有窒礙難行的地方！那你現在為什麼又提出來，現在沒有窒礙難行了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這一次我們除了移用歲計賸餘之外，另外有舉借1,056億的經費。"],["羅委員明才：對，所以你速度就快一點嘛！很多民眾說：拜託！就是為了這1萬塊，已經等了快一年多！有時候想一想，全世界沒有人的速度那麼慢的啦！你看新加坡上次說要普發現金，普發了沒？香港說要普發現金，普發了沒？美國也要發，全世界到處都在發，人家的速度很快啊！我們現在卻還在討論。","再來，有五種方式可以拿到這1萬塊，是五種還六種？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是有五種方式，跟112年的6,000塊是同樣的方式來發放。"],["羅委員明才：因為你們的速度太慢了，所以本席這一次可能應該也會領，但我領出來後會捐出來給財政部，財政部缺不缺錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有捐給財政部的問題，財政部也沒有捐款的專戶啊。"],["羅委員明才：因為每一次討論到財政的問題，你們都看起來就是「哇！我沒錢、沒錢！」你沒錢？其實是有錢的，去年稅收是超徵的。請問部長，你今年稅收有沒有超徵？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，114年到今年8月底為止，我們的實徵數其實是低於去年同期的實徵數；我們的預算數又比去年的實徵數還高947億，但我們今年到8月底的實徵數是比去年少了三百多億。"],["羅委員明才：對，所以接下來就是11、12月，你有沒有信心達成目標？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個很具有挑戰性，今年我們的實徵數能不能達到預算數，要看今年9月的暫繳稅款，就是營所稅暫繳稅款的金額是多少，跟後續的一個……"],["羅委員明才：我大概算了一下，今年稅收還是會超徵，我希望如果今年超徵、明年超徵，你可以讓普發現金常態化，不要因為政黨輪替或是什麼的而有不同，該還給民眾的超收的稅收，本來就要還給人民嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有所謂的超收，每1塊錢的稅款都是依法徵收的，沒有所謂的超收。"],["羅委員明才：好，請問部長，我把這1萬塊捐給財政部，大概什麼時候可以做到？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部沒有這個捐款的專戶啊！"],["羅委員明才：沒有啊，那我就捐給花蓮的民眾，他們嗷嗷待哺……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們尊重每一位的選擇。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員，部長請回，謝謝。","接下來請郭昱晴委員發言。","跟委員會報告，我們中午不休息，大概在12點的時候開放用餐，請各位部會首長現場用餐，辛苦大家了，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163904","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163904","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0c66d77322dd19c2fb1cbd8f3401de56a656cd2b685a6ecb8bb479112f1783c0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:39:30 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我的意思是說我還是希望政府能夠在均衡發展上面以前的時候在這些高雄其實是不太有機會但這幾年其實惠達AMD也在高雄陸續有一些投資了AI產業也在高雄陸續投資我們也希望政府有時候加一些力道"},{"start":298.815,"end":320.219,"text":"不是只有台北才是唯一的選擇其實高雄在這方面也做了很多不管是人力 土地或者是相關的水電都做好了充足的準備的時候我們認為有時候適度的跟業者溝通往高雄去移動其實是一個很好的選擇區域均衡發展很好的選擇現在已經是進行式的最先進的半導體的製程已經到高雄去了"},{"start":320.299,"end":344.545,"text":"我們希望有一些大型國際的大型的這些平台業者事實上也進駐到高雄我們希望再繼續努力了好不好輝達有機會能夠進到高雄對高雄絕對是一大重大的一個鼓勵最後一個我問一下財政財政部長彩化法的部分其實這個過去提出來這個版本我認為對北部縱北清南縱南清綠其實非常不公平的那這個部分"},{"start":345.505,"end":370.638,"text":"財政部會提出財政法的修法版本我已經提出來了啦財政部會提出修法的版本嗎讓這些不公不義的一些法案重新再回到合理的一個狀態是的 財政部已經召集地方政府以及相關中央機關召開三次會議那我們會在廣徵各界意見以後再來討論部長什麼時候會提出來因為如果依照現行的版本對中南部的縣市真的很不公平對 現在的水平分配確實有很大的一個問題因為造成城鄉差距更為拉大所以這個部分我們"},{"start":373.86,"end":390.026,"text":"不管有沒有目標什麼時間至少提出一個版本出來這個部分我們會持續的爭相關的意見然後跟內政院一起做我希望未來要整體的思考啦不要讓國家傾斜的更嚴重啦如果持續的縱北傾南的話這對國家整體發展是不好的謝謝謝謝謝謝賴日榮委員謝謝接下來請羅明財委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":930,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時41分）謝謝主席。請財政部莊部長跟經濟部龔部長。"],["主席：有請龔部長和莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：先請教兩位部長，面對國際的變局，要強化我們相關的韌性，包括我們的經濟基礎等等，我認為我們應該大力支持，這個預算會全力支持，也希望你們可以妥善地來執行，達到一個好的成效，不管是在面對國際情勢或者是國家安全等等的工作。但是裡面有牽涉到幾個面向，首先要問一下經濟部長，關稅的衝擊其實對傳產來說有相當大的影響，特別是高雄在金屬扣件的部分是有相當大的影響。我知道部長有下去跟扣件業者溝通過了，部長有沒有什麼樣的方案可以來協助業者？"],["龔部長明鑫：現在整個預算分布有三大部分，一個是金融上的協助，再次強調我們雨天是不會收傘的，可以展延，然後其他部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是金融支持啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，金融支持。第二個是轉型升級上的支持，我們會有輔導團下去看到底需要怎麼做轉型、AI導入要怎麼導入，讓它可以升級轉型。第三個就是拓展多元市場，他們在海外參展，我們會給予補助，甚至於設置臺灣館給他們協助。但是扣件還有另外的，就是如果他們可以在特殊領域獲得認證的話，事實上它的價格是非常好的，比如說它的專業用在汽車上、航太上或特殊用途上，這個是比較特殊的，這個部分我們會看看，輔導團也會協助他們強化，讓他們可以……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望部長要加強力道，特別是中南部的中小企業，尤其扣件產業在這一塊受到相當大的影響，我希望部長能夠加重這一塊的力道啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別是裡面有一些支持產業的預算，我也希望能夠有效地用在刀口上，給這些扣件業者、中小企業更多的支持，因為這影響到很多家庭，也影響到整個南部企業的發展，我希望部長再加強這樣的力道。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來我再請教研發的比例，這個部分其實我認為都要持續增加，特別是在傳產的部分，所以我也希望部長未來能夠持續加重這一塊，現在當然不管是從半導體產業或其他的，甚至是AI產業，我們都努力在支持，但是對於傳統產業、這些基礎產業，其實它是國家很重要的產業，所以我認為他們的研發還是要持續地加重，我也希望經濟部、政府這邊能夠持續有更多的政策手段來協助他們研發升級，讓他們未來更具有競爭力。這部分部長要不要講一下？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，所以我們已經開始組輔導團，這個輔導團是產、官、學、研所組成的，會下到企業端去，就像剛剛提到的，看看它研發要走哪一個方向、AI導入要怎麼導入，然後……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我希望要有一些更具體的方案出來。"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個會後再提供給我，可以有完整的具體方案來協助中小企業、協助傳統產業升級的部分，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來我問一下輝達在臺北的部分，其實高雄也努力在爭取，包括亞灣的智慧科技創新園區，包括輝達、AMD也都在高雄有投資了，高雄其實是一個很好的地點，當然輝達有它的一些考量。部長，未來如果不一定在臺北的話，高雄是一個適合的地點，有沒有可能用政府的力量協助業界有機會到高雄來設置它的總部？"],["龔部長明鑫：我想輝達有它自己的考量，當然它現在還在關心北士科這塊地，但是據我們了解，輝達也跟我們表示說，它也不排除其他的地方。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不排除其他地方，也不排除高雄嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：但是到臺灣來設立總部也好，研發中心也好，不會只有NVIDIA一家而已，還有其他很多很多的企業，我們都歡迎，也希望……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，高雄有沒有機會爭取到輝達的總部在高雄進駐？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個可能要NVIDIA……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我的意思是，我還是希望政府能夠在均衡發展上多著力，以前這些在高雄其實是不太有機會的，但這幾年輝達、AMD也在高雄陸續有一些投資了，AI產業也在高雄陸續投資了，我們也希望政府能夠加一些力道，不是只有臺北才是唯一的選擇……"],["龔部長明鑫：有、有、有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其實高雄在這方面也做了很多，不管是人力、土地或是相關的水電，都做好充足準備的時候，我們認為有時候適度地跟業者溝通，往高雄去移動，其實對區域均衡發展是一個很好的選擇。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在已經是進行式了，最先進的半導體製程已經到高雄去了，有一些國際大型的平臺業者事實上也進駐到高雄了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望再繼續努力啦！輝達有機會能夠進到高雄，對高雄絕對是重大的鼓勵啦！","最後我問一下財政部長，有關財劃法的部分，我認為過去提出來的版本是重北輕南、重藍輕綠，其實是非常不公平的，這個部分財政部會提出財劃法的修法版本嗎？我已經提出來了，財政部會提出修法版本，讓這些不公不義的法案重新再回到合理的狀態嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，財政部已經召集地方政府及相關中央機關召開3次會議，我們會廣徵各界意見以後再來討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，什麼時候會提出來？因為如果依照現行的版本，對中南部的縣市真的很不公平。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，現在的水平分配確實有很大的問題，會造成城鄉差距更為拉大，所以這個部分我們也……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，你們的目標是什麼時間內至少提出一個版本出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們會持續地提出相關意見，然後跟……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望未來要整體的思考，不要讓國家傾斜得更嚴重，如果持續重北輕南的話，這對國家整體發展是不好的，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：賴委員，再到辦公室跟你做報告，謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff04efe27d00d67fc242b1f00580874b155656cd2b685a6ecb806b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:35:36 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time no see我想今天要特別請部長本一職權針對卓榮泰卓院長在花蓮發生這麼大的一個"},{"start":40.619,"end":66.355,"text":"驗射服潰壩事件超過可能超過20人罹難的這麼大的一個災情8000多位災民23號發生9月23號9月24號部長到院長到花蓮就聲明要來查查相關的失職的責任部長部長"},{"start":70.762,"end":99.026,"text":"本席在這裡期許部長能夠很務實的查核清楚面對啊可能超過20位不幸罹難的這些鄉親亡靈啊面對這些亡靈希望部長本於職責本於良知能夠把過程啊能夠查查非常清楚"},{"start":99.861,"end":127.574,"text":"能夠水落石出本席在這裡就這段時間所接觸到所有相關的政府作為我們在這裡照時間序大概順一下本席在這裡講我相信法務部昨天也看了本席質詢卓院長雖然態度很惡劣但是本席把所有關鍵點"},{"start":129.161,"end":142.704,"text":"跟實際的證據都已經提出來了在這裡再請部長就所有查核的工作務必要公正 務必要查明從9月21號美國發現有這個驗射壺9月26號陽明交大也發現有這個驗射壺農業部成立了這個監測應變小組"},{"start":158.257,"end":183.031,"text":"接下來就要去了解他到底有什麼因應積極的作為當事情發生整個光復鄉親華人上面這麼大的一個驗射壺當時啊大概一千多萬噸一千多萬噸的水一千多萬噸立方的水在上面然後"},{"start":187.264,"end":214.486,"text":"地方不斷的提出立法院也針對驗射壺要處理台灣過去不是沒有處理驗射壺的經驗非常多次然後在8月13號立法院通過的丹拉斯颱風600億重建預算裡面把馬太安溪驗射壺已經放進去"},{"start":216.479,"end":240.056,"text":"當時農業部長清楚回答沒有積極的危險好那本席就從8月13號之前在他說還沒有危險之前回溯到8月11號8月11號由花蓮縣政府光復相公所經濟部農業部共同開會"},{"start":245.522,"end":272.435,"text":"針對艷澀湖事件當時已經從7月的1200萬方變成6000萬方就已經再三提醒經濟部 水利署必須要把兩個馬太安溪的開口題要把它補上強度要夠"},{"start":274.073,"end":291.704,"text":"告訴經濟部我們看一下農業部的報告農業部正式提出的報告我們看一下馬太安西的開口題馬太安西的開口題馬太安西的開口題這兩個開口題"},{"start":296.648,"end":317.012,"text":"這整個報告是完全拿農業部的報告本席在上面沒有多畫一條線上面的線跟標示全部是農業部標示出來的馬太安溪從上游流下來就是這個藍色的水線旁邊兩個開口題就是農業部認為會從這兩個題從這裡一流進去而且"},{"start":326.383,"end":352.98,"text":"今年農業部為什麼提出來因為在去年11月的康瑞颱風就是從這裡淹進去已經從那裡淹進去了一個颱風就淹進去了更不要說現在上游有9100萬噸的立方的水在那裡農業部 上一張農業部的圖"},{"start":355.489,"end":359.853,"text":"已經告訴他會從那裡進去8月11號的會議決議這邊強度 請經濟部補強強度要夠如果強度不夠的話水就會從那裡一煙進去剛剛 那張圖"},{"start":384.768,"end":410.318,"text":"這邊這兩個缺口進去的地方就是佛祖街就是整個光復市區就從這裡進去從空照圖我們也看得很清楚就從這裡進去所有的調查務必屬實而且這是有會議決議並且有錄音檔現在地方政府跟中央部會開會都要有錄音"},{"start":411.874,"end":438.515,"text":"以策安全都有錄音當時就講這兩個缺口一定要補一定要把它補住要有強度我們再看一下賴總統到花蓮不得了前進協調所的報告前進協調所的報告說15天10天還是15天就已經完成了5米高的堤防"},{"start":440.019,"end":464.367,"text":"10月4號災後10月4號完成5米高的堤防10月11號還要完成表面強化防水作業那為什麼8月11號已經告訴他都不做因為什麼災後突然知道要做而且一口氣做了2800多米那災前為什麼不做會議有決議為什麼不做"},{"start":468.919,"end":494.745,"text":"工人有沒有廢植植物再過來8月11號法務部要資料的話 縣政府應該都會給都有錄音檔還有會議決議8月11號要求大家協商以後農業部同意因為農業部在監測在監測這個驗測服"},{"start":500.214,"end":511.578,"text":"當夜色湖只要只要一流一流還不是潰壩只要一流就必須要發海嘯警報結果發了沒有完全沒有發為什麼沒有發海嘯警報等到賴總統來花蓮前進協調所第一頁"},{"start":531.059,"end":555.877,"text":"紀念城指揮官 政委報告第一頁就講 驗社福的警戒發布驗社福的警戒發布 就這張圖這全部是行政院自己的資料就必須要發海嘯警報"},{"start":561.235,"end":582.792,"text":"行政院自己的資料就說要發海嘯警報8月11號花蓮縣政府關乎相公所農業部經濟部的會議決議越南政府只要一流就要發海嘯警報這是中央做的圖明5秒 停5秒 反覆9遍85秒 一個run 85秒要不斷地去發布"},{"start":589.76,"end":611.534,"text":"結果艷澀湖潰壩沒有任何人民聽到聲音因為農業部沒有響海嘯警報這個都在8月11號的會議當中都講得非常的清楚不只有會議的決議還有錄音檔"},{"start":616.109,"end":632.8,"text":"地方政府現在跟中央部會開會每一場都要錄音可能以後還要錄影接下來部長本席剛剛講這兩個決議您了解了嗎你可以再查核沒有關係可以嗎"},{"start":634.166,"end":650.619,"text":"這部分委員關心的這個委員提到是不是有疏忽的一個問題我想這個花蓮地檢署在9月24號都已經主動來分案來做一個就是卓榮泰院長到花蓮發飆"},{"start":653.295,"end":678.136,"text":"發飆說要就職 下午地檢署就出動了那個9月20日 那個因為第一時間第一時間發你地檢署就很關注這個問題了然後就是已經主動分案了那當然會看 會仔細調查看各環節有什麼樣的一個疏失的一個問題我想這個今年分案 我就對各案我就不表示意見了我就不表示意見了北溪市你查明清楚"},{"start":679.585,"end":708.667,"text":"那我想這個這個剛才那個召委那個總裁有提到就是這個我想各個環節的應該調的資料應該做一個查證我現在發你記者書應該他會本席在這裡講就是不要這個事實又被吃案吃掉在這裡再讓你看一下什麼叫做土石流及大規模崩塌防災疏散避難作業規定第三條"},{"start":711.243,"end":732.397,"text":"第二項第一款疏散避難的路線還有收容所的選定由農業部 人民會國防部 經濟部 交通部衛福部 內政部來輔導選定所有的避難收容計畫這個會沒有開過有開過 請法務部"},{"start":741.355,"end":764.331,"text":"請行政委把會議記錄拿出來600人疏散的疏散計畫 有沒有8600人的疏散計畫 有沒有還不止第三條第二項第一款 還有第三項第四款"},{"start":765.592,"end":788.965,"text":"所有收容所的整備工作要由五個部會來開會來輔導什麼時候開過會資料在哪裡本席已經把明確的資料在這裡公開再來這是法律規定再來撤離計畫"},{"start":792.991,"end":819.594,"text":"撤離計畫 執行單位我想昨天部長也在現場本席講得很清楚經濟部的水災危險顯示地區疏散撤離標準作業中央督導 地方政府督導第五條第二項第五款第五條第二項第六款"},{"start":820.805,"end":846.755,"text":"撤離的單位是哪個單位部長知道嗎負責強制撤離的單位是哪個單位這不就依法令的該誰去主辦的就是要去做一個處理不是嘛 本席問你您看過法律法條了沒有嘛或是災害防救法撤離作業的第十條撤離作業由鄉鎮公所負責這是法律明文規定"},{"start":849.349,"end":865.941,"text":"但是你們有交過鄉鎮公所整個撤離計畫嗎行政院有嗎這七個部會有嗎再過來謠言遍地災害防救法"},{"start":867.925,"end":894.756,"text":"對於謠言法辦的事情請問法務部現在有辦了哪一條災區的謠言嗎 有沒有這部分應該有發你地檢署來做一個處理我想這個他已經分案在做一個偵辦的而且這個是一個他案的一個所以所有的有些不法的我想這個都可以在這個案件來做一個處理因為法務部必須在第一時間以正視聽"},{"start":896.576,"end":923.803,"text":"讓所有的謠言不會雞飛塵世法務部應該要像誰說了陳菊怎麼樣一天就查辦出來了誰說了行政院怎麼樣幾個小時就抓人了誰說賴總統不到半天就逮人了現在災區"},{"start":926.411,"end":939.141,"text":"是比這些官員都還要重要因為他事案什麼時候能查辦出來請盡快跟本委員會提出查辦的實際的狀況謝謝部長 可以嗎"},{"start":943.459,"end":957.705,"text":"這個偵查的內容 偵查的 這個我們尊重檢察官的偵查計畫因為偵查不公開 你可以把偵查計畫 偵查計畫也可以送來沒有關係啊偵查計畫我不能 也沒有關係 你說你能公布的公布出來就好嘛對不對 很簡單嘛"},{"start":961.666,"end":988.877,"text":"進檢 消息比你們都還清楚嘛對不對 怎麼不要講這個進檢有哪一個消息他不知道不要提那些那還是我們要去進檢打聽部長 我們盡快把這些事情盡快把這些事情回憶名義好不好該查的要查在我們的權管之內 我們會來做一個處理謝謝該你們查的 盡快"},{"start":991.735,"end":992.319,"text":"好 謝謝副委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1052,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時22分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，好久不見！今天我要特別請部長本於職權，針對卓榮泰卓院長在花蓮發生這麼大一個堰塞湖潰壩事件，可能有超過20人罹難、八千多位災民這麼大的一個災情，9月23號發生，9月24號院長到花蓮就聲明要查察相關失職責任。部長，本席在這裡期許部長能夠很務實的查核清楚，面對可能超過20位不幸罹難的這些鄉親亡靈，希望部長本於職責、本於良知，能夠把過程查察清楚，讓真相水落石出。","本席在這裡就這段時間所接觸到的所有相關政府作為，依照時間序大概順一下。我相信法務部昨天也看了本席質詢，卓院長雖然態度很惡劣，但本席已經把所有關鍵點跟實際的證據都提出來，在這裡再請部長就所有查核工作，務必要公正、務必要查明。","9月21號美國發現有這個堰塞湖，9月26號陽明交大也發現有這個堰塞湖。農業部成立了監測應變小組，接下來我們就要去了解它到底有什麼因應的積極作為？當事情發生，整個光復鄉親譁然，上面這麼大的一個堰塞湖，當時大概有一千多萬立方米的水在上面，然後地方不斷提出質疑，立法院也針對堰塞湖問題要求處理。臺灣過去不是沒有處理堰塞湖的經驗，有非常多次；8月13號立法院通過的丹娜絲颱風600億重建預算裡面，已經把馬太鞍溪堰塞湖放進去，當時農業部長清楚回答沒有立即危險。","本席就從8月13號部長說還沒有危險之前，回溯到8月11號；8月11號由花蓮縣政府、光復鄉公所、經濟部、農業部共同開會，針對當時已經從7月的1,200萬立方米變成6,000萬立方米的堰塞湖，再三提醒經濟部水利署必須把兩個馬太鞍溪的開口堤補上，而且強度要夠，當時就已經告訴經濟部。","接下來我們看一下農業部正式提出的報告，關於馬太鞍溪的開口堤，這整個報告是完全拿農業部的報告，本席在上面沒有多畫一條線，上面的線跟標示全部都是農業部標示出來的。馬太鞍溪從上游流下來就是這個藍色的水線，旁邊兩個開口堤就是農業部認為會從這兩個堤溢流進去。而且今年農業部為什麼提出來？因為去年11月的康芮颱風就是從這裡淹進去，一個颱風就淹進去了，更不要說現在上游有9,100萬立方米的水在那裡。我們看上一張農業部的圖，已經告訴他會從那裡進去。8月11號的會議決議就請經濟部補強，強度要夠，如果強度不夠的話，水就會從那裡溢淹進去。我們再看剛剛那張圖，這兩個缺口進去的地方就是佛祖街、就是整個光復市區、就是從這裡進去，從空照圖也看得很清楚，就是從這裡進去。所有的調查務必屬實，而且這有會議決議並且有錄音檔，現在地方政府跟中央部會開會都要有錄音，以策安全，都有錄音，當時就講這兩個缺口一定要補強它的強度。","我們再看一下，賴總統到花蓮，不得了，前進協調所的報告說10天或是15天就已經完成五米高的堤防，在災後的10月4號就已經完成五米高的堤防，10月11號還要完成表面強化防水作業，為什麼8月11號已經告訴他了卻都不做？為什麼災後突然知道要做？而且一口氣做了兩千八百多米！災前為什麼不做？會議有決議為什麼不做？公務人員有沒有廢弛職務？","再來，法務部要資料的話，縣政府應該都會給，都有錄音檔，還有會議決議。8月11號要求大家協商以後，農業部同意，因為農業部在監測這個堰塞湖，只要堰塞湖溢流，還不是潰壩，只要溢流就必須要發海嘯警報，結果發了沒有？完全沒有發！為什麼沒有發海嘯警報？等到賴總統來花蓮，前進協調所指揮官季連成政委的報告第一頁就講堰塞湖的警戒發布，就是這張圖，這全部是行政院自己的資料，行政院自己的資料就說要發海嘯警報。8月11號花蓮縣政府、光復鄉公所、農業部、經濟部的會議決議，堰塞湖只要溢流就要發海嘯警報，這是中央做的圖，每5秒停5秒，反覆9遍，一個round 85秒，要不斷地去發布。結果堰塞湖潰壩，沒有任何人民聽到聲音，因為農業部沒有發海嘯警報！這在8月11號的會議當中都講得非常清楚，不只有會議的決議，還有錄音檔，地方政府現在跟中央部會開會，每一場都要錄音，可能以後還要錄影。","部長，本席剛剛講的這兩個決議，您了解了嗎？你可以再查核沒有關係，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分委員提到是不是有疏忽的問題，我想花蓮地檢署在9月24號都已經主動分案來做一個……"],["傅委員崐萁：就是卓榮泰院長到花蓮發飆說要究責，下午地檢署就出動了，本席了解……"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實第一時間花蓮地檢署就很關注這個問題，然後就已經主動分案了，當然會仔細調查看各環節有什麼樣的疏失。既然已經分案，對個案我就不表示意見了。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請你查明清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛才總召有提到，各個環節應該調的資料、應該做的查證，我相信花蓮地檢署應該會通案偵辦。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，本席在這裡要講的是，這個事實不要又被吃案吃掉。再讓你看一下什麼叫做土石流及大規模崩塌防災疏散避難作業規定，第三條第二項第一款的規定是疏散避難路線及收容所的選定，要由農業部、原民會、國防部、經濟部、交通部、衛福部、內政部來輔導，選定所有的避難收容計畫。這個會沒有開過，如果有開過，請行政院把會議紀錄拿出來。600人的疏散計畫有沒有？8,600人的疏散計畫有沒有？不只第三條第二項第一款，還有第三項第四款也規定所有收容所的整備工作要由五個部會來開會、來輔導。什麼時候開過會？資料在哪裡？本席已經把明確的資料在這裡公開，這是法律規定。再來是撤離計畫，關於執行單位，我想昨天部長也在現場，本席講得很清楚，按經濟部水災危險潛勢地區疏散撤離標準作業程序，包括中央督導、地方政府督導，依照第五條第二項第五款、第五條第二項第六款，撤離的單位是哪個單位？部長知道嗎？負責強制撤離的單位是哪個單位？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分就依法令，該誰去主辦的就是要去做一個處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：不是，本席是問您看過法條了沒有？或是依據災害防救法第十條，撤離作業由鄉鎮公所負責，這是法律明文規定，但是你們有教過鄉鎮公所整個撤離計畫嗎？行政院有嗎？這七個部會有嗎？","再過來是謠言遍地。災害防救法對於謠言法辦的事情有所規定，請問法務部現在有辦了哪一條災區的謠言嗎？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分應該由花蓮地檢署來做處理，已經分案在偵辦了，而且是「他」字案，所以所有的不法都可以在案件中處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：因為法務部必須在第一時間以正視聽……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們在9月24號當日就分案了。"],["傅委員崐萁：讓所有的謠言不會積非成是，法務部應該要像誰說了陳菊怎麼樣的案子，你1天就查辦出來了；誰說了行政院怎麼樣，幾個小時就抓人了；誰說了賴總統怎麼樣，不到半天就逮人了。現在災區比這些官員都還要重要，你的「他」字案什麼時候能查辦出來？請儘快跟本委員會提出查辦的實際狀況，謝謝部長，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對於偵查的內容，我們尊重檢察官的偵查計畫，因為偵查不公開，所以我沒辦法做一個……"],["傅委員崐萁：你也可以把偵查計畫送來，沒有關係。"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查計畫我不能公布……"],["傅委員崐萁：也沒有關係，你把能公布的公布出來就好了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：進度可以。"],["傅委員崐萁：很簡單，「鏡檢」的消息比你們都還清楚，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不要講那個啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：怎麼不要講那個？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這些……"],["傅委員崐萁：「鏡檢」有哪一個消息不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不要去提那些。"],["傅委員崐萁：不要提那些，還是我們要去「鏡檢」打聽？部長，我們儘快把這些事情……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是媒體的事情，媒體的事情我們不管。"],["傅委員崐萁：儘快把這些事情回應民意，好不好？該查的要查。"],["鄭部長銘謙：在我們的權管之內，我們會來做處理，謝謝。"],["傅委員崐萁：該你們查的，請儘快。"],["主席：謝謝傅委員，也請部長這裡……因為畢竟這次的災情很嚴重，是眾所矚目的案件，有關於謠言的部分，要請地檢署多積極地去調查、處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，「鏡檢」的事情無人不知、無人不曉，你不必迴避這個事情啦！"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00001"}}},{"id":"163900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff02456e4f8eb3c4a530a8af512ffeae19c656cd2b685a6ecb83c866e876d24eab55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:21:56 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麻煩請李主委請他主委主委好主委延續剛剛學委員的意見那您剛一直提到之後你會交代下去但本席也知道是說現在有6名委員包括您本人是任期到11月3號"},{"start":23.877,"end":37.033,"text":"那到今天已经是10月8号了那不到一个月的时间照理讲过去我们相关的独立机关如果说人事有需要做送立法院审查的话差不多是三个月前就会提出人选那"},{"start":38.45,"end":51.461,"text":"就您的了解因為早上你已經有受訪但是我們還是想要請教到底現在問題出在哪邊是行政院長找不到人還是大家沒有想要擔任中選會的一個職務還是說在等誰點頭開口 主委"},{"start":54.096,"end":78.377,"text":"我所知道的是 行政院非常積極的在找人 尋找適當的人選至於為什麼到現在 有沒有諮詢過你 進行的程度我不用了 我兩任已經屆滿了所以你也沒有辦法再留任 不行其他的部分 有沒有諮詢過你 有沒有推薦的人選"},{"start":80.09,"end":99.371,"text":"行政院他的这个征询人选的管道非常的多所以有包括你吗其实我觉得你很合适啊过去两任八年的一个时间两任的一个时间如果说你认为说哪一个选务人员是主委可以担任的那院长没有说想要来了解一下你的这个意愿"},{"start":100.809,"end":118.128,"text":"了解一下你的推薦還是說你會擔心不是我們尊重院長他的權限那你不會擔心說如果說11月3號到了結果人選還沒有出來因為送進立法院我們還要內政委員會排人事的一個審查公聽會甚至還要在院會"},{"start":118.729,"end":137.474,"text":"所以如果說最快最快時間今天送進來可能也都沒有辦法趕到11月3號那到時候中選會業務會不會有相關的一個交接 清黃不接那應該是三個月前就要提出來啦第一點就是說我相信行政院應該近期之內就能夠把人選給送進來"},{"start":138.934,"end":160.512,"text":"那行政院送进来之后也希望立法院能够让选务能够无缝的接轨所以在很快的时间里面能够审查完成审查我相信您也可以认同这不应该是勤勒立法院我们都要求我们都希望是说政务可以无缝接轨可是重点在于是你提出的人选好不好"},{"start":161.532,"end":180.04,"text":"是不是公正客觀聯名讓社會大眾能夠幸福那還有更重要的是你應該提出人選的時候就應該提出來啊那過去為什麼以11月3號到期來講應該回推8月就要提出人選那為什麼那時候沒有提出來是不是那時候還在看726823的一個結果"},{"start":184.143,"end":201.933,"text":"726823已经过很久了是过很久了已经过很久是啊但是本席更想问的是如果说过那么久了为什么到现在10月7号都还没有新的中选会的人选名单出来所以因为过了很久这是谁的责任所以不是因为这个726823的原因所以这是谁的责任还是行政院长吗因为只有他有提名权吗"},{"start":207.279,"end":233.536,"text":"來 指委我再請教一下今天我們也看到這個相關的一個選務報告那其中辦理公職人員罷免法的一個部分在這一次整個公職人員罷免法的一個辦理完畢之後有沒有任何選務不中立的狀況選務中立這個是我相當有信心雖然這一次的這個罷免潮風風雨雨但是這些所謂的風風雨雨都跟選務無關"},{"start":234.522,"end":262.97,"text":"都跟選務無關但在這過程當中大家難免還是會覺得說中選會是有下指導棋之嫌其實就中選會是應該要下指導棋但是中選會因為中選會是但是不能影響到最後的一個結果中選會是主管機關但中選會不能影響到最後的結果必須要負責監督我們的所屬機關你是要選務中立你是要監督選務中立我們就講最直接的到目前為止我們就是要看好他要走正軌不要怕騙了"},{"start":264.21,"end":278.239,"text":"但是目前但是我們就怕的是說中選會真的是太限制了為了想要達成某個目的或是某個結果所以說太限制了選民的一個洪委員你耳目很多你具體的事實跟我講我來檢討哪個地方有疑慮我們來檢討"},{"start":281.724,"end":295.656,"text":"本席到現在到地方上還是很多鄉親講到這一次的這個罷免案都會講是說連踴躍投票都不能踴躍這真的不知道是說我們中選會在下什麼樣的指導棋"},{"start":296.502,"end":311.254,"text":"我們鼓勵大家多多參與公民活動鼓勵大家多多出來勇於發聲鼓勵大家多多出來表達自己的意見跟主張我們對於法制的我們對於法制的宣導我們對於選務制度的這個宣導那是可以的啦大家踴躍的"},{"start":326.346,"end":355.884,"text":"但是一旦是進入個案的這個對立大家在競爭的時候每一個 每一方的考量都不一樣有些人希望投票率高一點有些人希望投票率低一點所以這個時候 中選會愛討好麥仔當啦我們不要去陷入到正反雙方的一個爭主裡面去主委 我說實在您在政壇上算前輩但是 我說實在話其實您這樣的講法真的不是一個正當的講法"},{"start":356.184,"end":376.96,"text":"我也想要利用這個機會跟我們所有的中選會的同仁不管是我們的委員到11月3號要離開但是中選會的基石還是所有的公務同仁要來做協助公民社會一個成熟的公民社會能夠鼓勵大家勇於表達自己的意見主張投票"},{"start":378.188,"end":387.37,"text":"投贊成票 投反對票或是他有去做投票行為動作這其實某種程度上都是鼓勵大家的表達公民的意見跟主張"},{"start":388.314,"end":414.848,"text":"如果說用什麼投票率高投票率低然後大家的考量然後還有我們中選會都還要來介入的話那其實我想中選會已經逾越了這樣子的一個範圍中選會在這一波的罷免潮裡面我跟全國的選務人員有一個要求我們一定要扮演一個穩定的力量所以中選會必須要非常的謹慎不要讓任何一方可以把我們的選務來作為一個議題"},{"start":418.07,"end":437.268,"text":"來發動彼此的攻擊包括所謂的是不是踴躍投票這一點看起來真的跟過去跟現在的那個態度是差很多啦所以其實諸位意義貫之 意義貫之剩一個月不到的時間啦我還是希望就說這個離開的身影也要讓大家懷念啦那"},{"start":438.155,"end":460.385,"text":"還是強調本席站在這邊因為我們還是會持續的要監督中選會那也希望您能夠帶回去 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本席請我們的李主委請到主委委員好"},{"start":14.566,"end":35.842,"text":"主委好本席想先接着这个陈委员陈文廷委员后面接着询问刚刚您的答复是他属于刚刚陈委员讲的很多他属于言论自由的范围我是说言论自由的不当行使对啊言论自由的不当行使所以这应该是违法明明那个选票已经是"},{"start":37.183,"end":48.309,"text":"用假的錯誤的資訊來誤導民眾這一塊我可能先確認還是要用法律來規範如果是地方選舉它是屬於地方選委會的權責"},{"start":50.154,"end":60.038,"text":"中選會是不是針對全國性的才是你們的還是是怎麼樣縣級以上的選務是由中選會來辦縣級以上所以縣議員是屬於縣議員跟縣長以上的都是中選會所以只有鄉鎮長跟村里長還有代表這些"},{"start":72.882,"end":96.64,"text":"好那所以如果是屬於鄉鎮長代表村里長的那就是縣選委會要針對這個情況他應該他們要出面來制止這種錯誤的假訊息吧我剛剛提到的因為他是必須要用法律所以我們現在的法律還不夠完備對法律的規定才能夠予以限制"},{"start":96.94,"end":119.74,"text":"那主委这个已经很多委员一次一次的会期都讲了你们要不要拿出版本但是我刚才提到的就是高雄高分院其实它有一个这个判决是可以做参考的就是说如果这种情况它危害到选举的公平性的话那是可以适用选拔法104条来予以处罚"},{"start":121.096,"end":143.777,"text":"所以還是有約束力但是不夠嘛因為選完了嘛可能被影響了都選完了才判決嘛在那個當下所以接著本席要請教您現在就是不管是境外勢力或者是一些不法人士散播這個不實的訊息"},{"start":146.256,"end":170.049,"text":"來影響我們國內各式各樣的選舉請問這個部分我們中選會在選務中立框架下扮演的角色和權責界線應該要很明確才對所以中選會對於這種散播不實言論假訊息這種情況你們的澄清機制目前速度跟得上"},{"start":170.869,"end":189.331,"text":"我们的速度非常的迅速非常迅速我们从108年开始就有成立这个错假讯息的防治小组你们发现以后你们会做什么动作我们第一个就是在最快的速度最快的这个时间里面我们一定要发澄清稿"},{"start":190.613,"end":204.808,"text":"你们会公布在哪里我们的网站我们的脸书我们甚至于还要跟行政院的专区要联系可是你们那样还是被动因为你公布在那民众他不会主动看到"},{"start":205.609,"end":230.578,"text":"所以是有疑慮的人他去查他去主動去查或者是有些人他把你們的網站訊息推播別人才看得到大眾才看得到我們會有管道來收集這些東西發現了它是錯假訊息的話除了我們立即的這個澄清包括圖卡淺顯易懂的一個澄清之外"},{"start":231.318,"end":258.158,"text":"我们也会跟平台业者来我们有一个绿色通道平台业者所以你们也会跟平台业者那当然跟平台业者我们有绿色的通道那我们会要求他你应该要查明事实你应该要下架你应该要限职阅览等等限职阅览等等这个是限级以上的你们都可以进行吗如果有反应假信息都可以不包括甚至于包括限级的都可以好"},{"start":259.119,"end":286.679,"text":"那现在因为很多的战场我想主委您了解在LINE在YouTube在IG在TRADE所以我们中选会有没有建立这么多元的管道有分众沟通这些都有都有那还不错很好那接着成效也不错执行的成效下台的这个下架的这个成数蛮高的那接着就是有关"},{"start":287.458,"end":311.487,"text":"中選會作為這個選務機關我們常常也有境外人士或國內不法人士他介入那有些是影響到這個可能他都利用國外的網站弄進來的那我不知道中選會你跟國安檢調檢警調的體系有沒有建立一個制度化常態性的橫向的聯繫"},{"start":313.001,"end":337.378,"text":"因为有些国外的网站你就没办法了如果是牵涉到国安的部分我想国安机关他们都有在监控所以不用你们这边跟他们互通他们自己会主动吗在选举期间应该不会吧当然牵涉到国安的话他们都会主动不是牵涉到国安我是牵涉到国外网站进来干预我们的选举这种情况应该是你们吧"},{"start":337.398,"end":351.583,"text":"而如果是跟國安相關的話我們也會把這個訊息要傳達給國安相關的機關對嘛 你們傳達嘛那我現在問的是你們有沒有建立一個制度化常態性的跟這些國安檢警調單位"},{"start":353.223,"end":373.774,"text":"建立这方面的横向连续的预警机器选举期间各相关的机关有一个联系的平台尤其所谓的检警联调的这个联系的平台都会交换情报好 最后的时间本席要跟您请教"},{"start":376.247,"end":384.594,"text":"這個我們看到行政院永續會的網站上羅列了各部會永續發展目標自願檢視報告獨獨漏了我們中選會"},{"start":389.414,"end":406.955,"text":"为什么为什么中选会自认业务跟永续无关吗完全没有中选会的啊是为什么我们的业务比较单纯嘛跟他这个跟他这个汇报的性质大概有一些主委你这样讲就有一点官僚体系的谢责"},{"start":408.276,"end":434.081,"text":"現在您是主辦全國大選影響國家治理整個治理的這個機關啊你知道選舉結果影響很大那你怎麼可以沒有給自己一個永續發展的策略跟績效報告我們在內部的這個管控是有的啦不行啦我可不可以要求你們能夠在一個月內提出來因為我看到這個聯合國的"},{"start":438.103,"end":467.219,"text":"DGS里面第16项促进和平包容的社会建立有效负责且包容的制度选举制度非常非常重要对我们全民对我们国家治理都影响很大要是这部分我们在世界的排名尤其是英国经济学人报的排名连续几年我们的选举相关的指标都10分了好了我们现在要求了"},{"start":467.719,"end":496.038,"text":"要求主委你可以在這個一個月內正式提出中選會2025年永續發展目標自願檢視報告可以嗎好我會交代我的同事送交本委員會我會交代我的同事但是到時候報告不是我了不是啦要提出來啦沒有問題可以齁那也謝謝主席麻煩這一塊我們能夠列入我們的這個重要的會議紀錄主委承諾可以嗎我會交代下去"},{"start":498.021,"end":502.748,"text":"你自己要領導吧不是他啦是說不是啦我的意思說整個中選會現在要來進行啦好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時13分）不會，謝謝主席，本席請李主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。本席想先接著陳冠廷委員的議題來詢問，剛剛您的答復有提到，陳委員講的很多情況是屬於言論自由的範圍啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：我是說言論自由的不當行使，是言論自由的不當行使。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊，所以這應該是違法，明明那個選票已經是用假的、錯誤的資訊來誤導民眾，這一塊我可能要先確認……"],["李主任委員進勇：不過還是要用法律來規範。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果是地方選舉，它是屬於地方選委會的權責，至於中選會，是不是針對全國性的選舉才是你們的？還是怎麼樣？比如說……"],["李主任委員進勇：縣級以上的選務是由中選會來辦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：縣級以上，所以縣議員是屬於……"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會來辦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，縣議員跟縣長以上的都是中選會，只有鄉鎮長跟村里長及代表這些……"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，如果是鄉鎮長、代表、村里長的選舉，就是縣選委會要針對這個情況來處理，他們應該要出面來制止這種錯誤的假訊息吧？或澄清。"],["李主任委員進勇：我剛剛提到的，因為它必須要用法律的規定……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們現在的法律還不夠完備？"],["李主任委員進勇：對，法律的規定才能夠予以限制，但是我剛剛也提到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委，這個是很多委員在之前的會期一次一次的提過了，你們要不要拿出版本啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是我剛剛也提到高雄高分院其實有一個判決是可以做參考的，就是說，如果這種情況危害到選舉公平性的話，那是可以適用選罷法第一百零四條來予以處罰，所以還是有約束力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是不夠嘛，因為選完了，可能有被影響，但都選完了才判決嘛，並不是在那個當下。所以接著本席要請教您，現在不管是境外勢力或者是一些不法人士散播不實訊息來影響我們國內各式各樣的選舉，對於這個部分，中選會在選務中立框架下扮演的角色和權責界線應該要很明確才對，所以中選會對於這種散播不實言論及假訊息的情況，你們的澄清機制目前速度跟得上？"],["李主任委員進勇：喔，我們的速度非常的迅速。"],["徐委員欣瑩：非常迅速？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們從108年開始就有成立錯假訊息的防制小組。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們發現以後會做什麼動作？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個，就是以最快的速度、最快的時間裡面，我們一定要發澄清稿，這個澄清稿……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們會公布在哪裡？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的網站、我們的臉書、甚至於還要跟行政院的專區聯繫，都……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是你們那樣還是被動，因為你公布在那裡，民眾不會主動看到，所以是要有疑慮的人主動去查……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有很多管道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：或者是有些人把你們的網站訊息推播，別人才看得到，大眾才看得到。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會有管道來蒐集這些東西，發現了是錯假訊息的話，除了我們立即的澄清，包括圖卡，淺顯易懂的澄清之外，我們也會跟平臺業者，我們有一個綠色通道，平臺業者……"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，所以你們也會跟平臺業者整個去……"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然、那當然，跟平臺業者，我們有綠色的通道，我們會要求他應該要查明事實、應該要下架、應該要限制閱覽等等。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個是縣級以上的選舉你們都可以進行嗎？如果有反映假訊息……"],["李主任委員進勇：都可以、都可以，不只包括……"],["徐委員欣瑩：都可以？"],["李主任委員進勇：甚至於包括縣級的都可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，現在因為很多的戰場，我想主委您瞭解，在LINE、在YouTube、在IG、在Threads，所以中選會有沒有建立這麼多元的管道分眾溝通？"],["李主任委員進勇：有，都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些都有？"],["李主任委員進勇：都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那還不錯，好，很好！接著，本席……"],["李主任委員進勇：成效也不錯啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：成效也不錯？"],["李主任委員進勇：執行的成效，下架的成數滿高的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。","接下來，中選會作為選務機關，我們常常發現有境外人士或國內不法人士介入，有些是影響到……可能他都利用國外的網站弄進來的，我不知道中選會跟國安、檢、警、調的體系有沒有建立一個制度化、常態性的橫向聯繫？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果有牽涉到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為有些國外的網站，你就沒辦法啦，這個可能要靠他們……"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是牽涉到國安的部分，我想國安機關都有在監控，而且會處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以不用你們這邊跟他們互通，他們自己會主動嗎？在選舉期間，應該不會吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然，牽涉到國安的話，他們都會主動……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是牽涉到國安，是牽涉到國外網站進來干預我們的選舉，這種情況應該是你們要處理吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果跟國安相關的話，我們也會把這個訊息傳達給國安相關的機關。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！你們傳達嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在問的是你們有沒有建立一個制度化、常態性的聯繫管道，跟國安、檢、警、調單位建立這方面橫向聯繫的預警機制？"],["李主任委員進勇：選舉期間各相關機關有一個聯繫的平臺，尤其所謂的檢、警、廉、調的聯繫平臺都會交換情報。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後的時間本席要跟您請教，我們看到行政院永續會的網站上羅列了各部會永續發展目標自願檢視報告，獨獨漏了中選會，為什麼？中選會自認業務跟永續無關嗎？完全沒有中選會的啊，是為什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的業務比較單純嘛，跟這個會報的性質大概有一些距離。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委！主委，你這樣講就有一點官僚體系的卸責啊，現在您是主辦全國大選、影響國家整個治理的機關，你知道選舉結果影響很大，你怎麼可以沒有給自己一個永續發展的策略和績效報告呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們在內部這個管控是有的啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不行啦！我可不可以要求你們，能夠在1個月內提出來，因為……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們跟行政院……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我看到聯合國SDGs裡面的第十六項，促進和平與包容的社會，建立有效、負責且包容的制度，而選舉制度非常非常重要，對我們全民、對我們國家治理都影響很大……"],["李主任委員進勇：要是這個部分，我們在世界的排名，尤其是英國經濟學人報的排名，連續幾年我們選舉相關的指標都達到10分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！我們現在要求主委，你可以在1個月內正式提出中選會2025年永續發展目標自願檢視報告，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，我會交代我的同事……"],["徐委員欣瑩：送交本委員會。"],["李主任委員進勇：我會交代我的同事，但是到時候報告不是我了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，要提出來啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：也謝謝主席，麻煩這一塊我們能夠列入重要的會議紀錄。主委承諾可以嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：好，我會交代下去、會交代下去。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你自己要領導吧！"],["主席：因為1個月以後不是他了，但他會交代下去啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我的意思是整個中選會現在要來進行啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝徐欣瑩委員質詢。請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ca53f29eee913d9a0a8af512ffeae19c656cd2b685a6ecb8a12d4359cc2b37275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:56:23 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稍微有請我們的主委加主委"},{"start":17.185,"end":36.939,"text":"主委好主委今天是我們中選會的業務報告不過在我們今天討論的內容之前我有一件事重要要請教包括主委在內總共有6個6位中選會的委員任期在今年的11月3號都要屆滿"},{"start":38.92,"end":43.865,"text":"那依法規定 我們鄉長應該在八月就要拿出我們新的委員的名單嘛所以鄉長發言人說 會在我們後期開議之後 會把這些資料送來但是目前我們到現在還沒看到像 請問主委 你不知道這個進度到哪裡了"},{"start":58.642,"end":83.785,"text":"我了解是行政院是很積極在徵詢適當的人選那至於這個進度的部分我們就不瞭解我們希望能夠及時能夠趕得上在11月4號新的委員能夠及時來接軌以免影響選務的運作"},{"start":85.406,"end":97.693,"text":"是 謝謝主委再要想要請教主委就是主委你也即將要滿期了那回顧您就任主委的這段期間的表現主委你自己打分數你自己打幾分另外有什麼地方你覺得可以做得更好"},{"start":101.598,"end":108.083,"text":"我認為這六年多我參加全國的宣佈當中大家教師的經驗是非常珍貴也非常高興不是只有我自己的感覺就是說我們每一次出辦在全國的宣佈之後都會做民意調查"},{"start":123.795,"end":131.523,"text":"滿意度的民意調查大概對川普的滿意度都超過百分之一百十五以上所以說啦甚至對川普人員的服務態度都九十幾%所以如果一定要不然就要早點發表一個心理的感想我對我們董事團隊的這個分數"},{"start":149.039,"end":158.397,"text":"我會把他打85分團隊分手會把他打85分至於我個人差強人意啦 差強人意最近客氣了 最近客氣了那不過"},{"start":159.414,"end":170.621,"text":"本社尊重這主委的講法但是在本社要把主委提前但是未來是不是還有人還是未來我們每一個這個我們選委會委員會中選會一定要保持中立 獨立千萬不能受到這個執政黨或是政敵的影響因為這幾年我們看到"},{"start":180.807,"end":202.826,"text":"在這幾個選舉裡面 包括我們這次的八百年公投案裡面我們想要讓人覺得說有雙標的情況 這個社會的觀感希望未來我們的中選會能夠更謹記自身的這個使命跟責任我倒是請委員是不是可以指教一下 三一部分中選會有雙標讓我們了解 主委 主委其實我們之前多次委員也都說到了 這部分是用提示"},{"start":207.37,"end":209.715,"text":"我們也期待未來中 中學會可以站這樣立場所以我們就想要來談這次民眾投票所謂公平性跟權益的部分根據我們審計部的報告"},{"start":219.622,"end":225.207,"text":"全國有8萬多名65歲以上的長輩在長輩和離安逃避逃避的時候有超過1公里這裡還有1萬5人是超過2公里對這行動比較不方便的長輩來說逃避是一件很不方便的事情也有可能會影響他們逃避的意願"},{"start":239.284,"end":255.684,"text":"那我們2022年這些身心障礙者權力公會裡面 審查會裡面也有明確的指出我國的政府應該要讓高齡者身障者有更多投票權益上的保障讓投票權不只是只有有資格而是讓他們能夠來行使"},{"start":256.505,"end":282.144,"text":"那這是第一部份 另外就是關注民投票的問題根據統計有超過2000所的投票所只有一名原住民的選舉人這代表啥代表你開票的時候就知道這兩個人投得什麼這等於是公開的變相的這個量票這個也影響到投票人的壓力嘛所以這個也違反我們憲法保障秘密投票的這個權益讓很多原住民朋友受到一些壓力啦那我講中選會"},{"start":284.428,"end":295.182,"text":"我們希望有請地方選委會來調整我們整個集中選票但是意願回復不到一半 成效很有限那"},{"start":296.644,"end":317.267,"text":"在這裡本縣也認為可以推動不在籍投票讓人就近來投票這是我們根本來解決這問題所以本縣在建議我們中學應該針對高齡、深藏、原住民族研議這個不在籍投票的配套方式其實我們目前有多少選務人員就已經都實施不在籍投票的"},{"start":318.668,"end":339.181,"text":"移轉投票嘛我本身是選委員員我在別人開票的時候我就在那裡投票那已經有在執行了嘛所以這個方法可以擴大來使用在其他的範圍上嘛那保證每一張票能夠票票等值也確保我們人民得到投票的自由跟隱私那這部分主委你要怎麼看"},{"start":340.101,"end":347.966,"text":"謝謝委員的指教,兩個問題要跟委員做報告第一點就是委員關心說,我們有很多連中者,這些是行動不便的人他們要去投票所來投票,有一些困難那這是牽涉到投票所的設定,因為國內的情形不一樣"},{"start":362.775,"end":373.68,"text":"我們現在如果全國性的打算投票票數全國大概差不多萬七至萬八這比100%百年進行已經增加很多了就是說運動分流讓大家投票更方便不過啦因為受到這個不管是說江蘇人員的限制還有地方這個投票數的設定違定的這個限制定定"},{"start":391.348,"end":410.454,"text":"要涉到說讓大家都很方便很安逸在我們家旁就可以投票這實際上有困難這個必須要配套怎麼樣子配套就是剛剛委員所提到的不再去投票要配套我們現在是必須要在投票日當天你要親自去到投票的時候來投票"},{"start":414.975,"end":430.262,"text":"那麼這樣子的方式是不是有一個變通的可能空間這個必須要繼續去研議那這個選舉的不在即投票這部分這個內政部他們也有在演繹當中不過這些都是看小看闊那我們希望社會大家再及時廣益這第一點跟委員這個報告第二點關主民這個問題關主民的不在即投票"},{"start":442.208,"end":470.238,"text":"那有關於這個投票秘密的這個保障的部分委員也了解我們做很多努力錢拜託萬拜託甚至是要求定一個這個指標各地選委會你就是要給我提供到多少就多少大家很努力但是這也要尊重投票權利他自己的意願就對了所以有些原住民朋友你要說我把你移到什麼地方去他可能也有他的考慮不方便的地方"},{"start":470.678,"end":482.927,"text":"至於能不能夠同樣的用不在籍投票來解決這個問題回頭回來 跟第一的問題一樣這必須要當完的可能是 希望我們也是因為這個議題我們講了很久也討論不久 希望我們繼續來努力因為再去 其實其他有話要說的包括我們這個中選會推動這個公投連署的電子化那也在研議這個罷免電子"},{"start":494.896,"end":514.199,"text":"連署的電子化 我相信我們中選會有意願推動電子化的這個連署代表什麼 代表我們有這兩項 處理我們資安 隱私跟境外干擾這些風險所以未來不要期待說 會不會遭到這種風險我們來處理 因為我們知道高齡化的社會已經是趨勢了未來遇到的情況只會更多"},{"start":515.06,"end":531.003,"text":"那我希望說 包括人民來的 人民希望說不再投票是希望我們投票更加方便 更加省事 省一點錢這車輛車賣費有的沒的齁 我覺得這也是我們國家 我們世界的條例齁那希望我們台灣可以 我們的民主也可以有這個方向來進行 來前進啦齁那希望我們主委能聽到我們國家的聲音 讓我們中選會可以以變民公平的原則 我們再加緊 加速我們的腳步"},{"start":543.516,"end":557.7,"text":"讓我們台灣的投票制度可以更加進步我們真的可以落實到憲法保障投票權在這裡最好也建議一點點時間跟主委說感謝主委這段時間的付出主委你也辛苦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委跟我們這裡陳冠廷委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":544,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時56分）謝謝召委，我們有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：召委好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委早。主委，今天是中選會的業務報告，不過在我們進入討論內容之前，我有一件重要的事情要跟你請教，包括主委在內，總共有6位中選會委員的任期在今年11月3日就要屆滿，依法規定，行政院應該在8月就要提出新的委員名單，行政院發言人說會在下一個會期開議之後把這些資料送來，但是到目前為止我們都還沒看到，請問主委，你知不知道進度到哪裡了？"],["李主任委員進勇：我了解的是行政院很積極在徵詢適當的人選，至於進度的部分，我們就不了解。"],["黃委員建賓：這會不會影響到明年選舉的部分？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們希望能夠及時、能夠趕得上，在11月4日新的委員能夠及時來接軌，以免影響選務的運作。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委。再來想要請教主委，主委，你也即將要滿期了，回顧您就任主委這段期間的表現，主委，你如果要為自己打分數，你會給自己打幾分？另外，有沒有什麼地方，你覺得還可以再做得更好一點？"],["李主任委員進勇：我認為這六年多，我和全國的選務同仁共事的經驗是非常珍貴，也非常高興，不是只有我自己這樣感覺，我們每一次辦理全國的選務之後都會做滿意度的民意調查，大概對選務的滿意度都超過85%以上，甚至對選務人員的服務態度都有百分之九十幾，如果任期屆滿離開之前要發表心裡的感想，我要對我們的同事、團隊打分數，我會給他們打85分。"],["黃委員建賓：團隊分數會打85分。"],["李主任委員進勇：至於我個人差強人意。"],["黃委員建賓：主委客氣了！不過本席尊重主委的說法，但是在那邊本席要跟主委提醒，不管你未來是不是還有……還是未來每一個中選會委員，中選會一定要保持中立、獨立，千萬不能受到執政黨或是政治的影響，因為這幾年我們看到在每一次的選舉裡面，包括這次的罷免案、公投案，我們社會都覺得有雙標的情況，這是社會的觀感，希望未來我們的中選會能夠更謹記自身的使命和責任。"],["李主任委員進勇：我倒是不是可以請委員指教一下，哪一部分中選會有雙標，讓我們了解，我們可以……"],["黃委員建賓：主委，其實早上很多委員也有提到，這部分是要提醒，我們也期待未來中選會可以站在這樣的立場。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員建賓：接下來就是要談這次民眾投票的公平性跟權益的部分，根據審計部的報告，全國有八萬多名65歲以上的長輩所住的地方離他們的投票所超過1公里，其中還有一萬多人甚至是超過2公里，對於行動比較不方便的長輩來說，投票是一件很不方便的事情，也有可能會影響他們投票的意願。2022年身心障礙者權益公約審查會裡面也有明確指出，我國政府應該要讓高齡者、身障者有更多投票權益上的保障，讓投票權不只是有資格，而是要讓他們能夠行使，這是第一個部分。","其次就是原住民投票的問題，根據統計，有超過2,000所的投票所只有1名原住民選舉人，這代表什麼？代表在開票的時候就知道這個人投給誰了，這等於是變相的公開亮票，會造成投票人的壓力，所以這個也違反我們憲法保障秘密投票的權益，讓很多原住民朋友受到一些壓力。中選會雖然有請地方選委會來調整、集中選票，但是意願回覆不到一半，成效很有限。","因此，本席認為如果可以推動不在籍投票，讓他們就近來投票，這樣就可以根本的解決這些問題，所以本席在這裡建議，中選會應該優先針對高齡、身障跟原住民族去研議不在籍投票的配套方式。其實我們目前有很多選務人員都已經在實施不在籍投票的移轉投票了，選務人員在別的投票所擔任職務時就可以在該投票所投票，所以我們已經有在執行了，這個方法應該可以擴大使用在其他的對象上，保證讓每一張票都能夠票票等值，也確保我們人民投票的自由跟隱私。對於這個部分，主委怎麼看？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教，兩個問題跟委員報告，第一點，委員關心我們很多年長者或是行動不便者要去投票所投票有一些困難，這個牽涉到我們投開票所的設置，因為各地的情形不一樣，如果是全國性大選，現在的投開票所在全國大概差不多有1.7萬至1.8萬個，這比108年之前已經增加很多了，就是希望透過分流，讓大家投票更方便。不過，因為受到不管是工作人員的限制或各地方投票所設置位置的限制等等，要設到讓大家都很方便、很滿意，在我們家隔壁就可以投票，這實際上是有困難的，這個必須要配套，怎麼樣配套？就是剛剛委員所提到的不在籍投標，要配套，我們現在是必須要在投票日當天親自到投票所來投票，這樣的方式是不是有一個變通的可能空間，這個必須要繼續去研議。對於選舉的不在籍投票，這個部分內政部也在研議當中，不過這牽涉到的層面比較廣，我們希望社會大家再集思廣益，這是第一點跟委員做報告。","第二點，針對原住民的部分，原住民的不在籍投票，有關於投票秘密的保障部分，委員也瞭解，我們做了很多努力，千拜託萬拜託，甚至是要求訂一個指標，各地選委會就是要提高到多少多少，大家很努力，但是這個也要尊重投票權人他自己的意願，對於有些原住民朋友，你要把他移到什麼地方去，他可能也有自己的考慮或不方便的地方。至於能不能夠同樣的用不在籍投票來解決這個問題，回過頭來，這跟第一個問題一樣，必須要長遠來做考慮。"],["黃委員建賓：是，因為這個議題我們說了很久，也討論了很久，希望我們繼續來努力。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員建賓：早上有其他的委員也提到，中選會推動公投連署的電子化，也在研議罷免連署的電子化，我相信中選會有意願推動電子化的連署就代表我們有能力處理我們資安、隱私跟境外干擾等等這些風險，所以未來我們也期待可以朝這個方向來處理，因為我們都知道高齡化社會已經是趨勢了，未來遇到的情況只會更多啦，其實人民希望有不在籍投票也是希望我們的投票能夠更方便、更省時間，甚至更省一些錢，包含交通費等一些有的沒有的，我想這也是世界的潮流，希望我們臺灣的民主也可以朝這個方向來進行、來前進啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員建賓：希望主委可以聽到我們各界的聲音，讓中選會能夠以便民、公平的原則來加速我們的腳步，讓臺灣的投票制度可以更加進步，真正落實憲法所保障的投票權。","最後也借用一點時間要跟主委說，感謝主委這段時間的付出，主委，你也辛苦了，謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的支持，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝黃建賓召委。","接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0e9b1a32ef4e22ffe2b1f00580874b155656cd2b685a6ecb89b56c876cab7149e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:18:11 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預算裡面或者是應該編列在特別預算裡面大家各自有不同的立場跟聲音所以未來如何引進第三方的審查包括公民監督的報告制度公開透明是長期"},{"start":95.228,"end":120.162,"text":"我們行政院過去民進黨執政這十年以來常在提的所以未來如何引進公民參與的機制這四大主軸十一項在我們行政院的平台在主計部都看得到我希望主計長在接下來報告朝野協商針對這幾個問題有更具體的說明好 謝謝主計長那我先回到我今天質詢的主軸我要問財政部部長"},{"start":121.656,"end":141.566,"text":"主席長你可以回座喔謝謝部長委員好你好我們這一次普發現金的部分不只是平常媒體在幫你宣傳還不用花錢我們所有的明代都在幫你宣傳那我也關注到我們這一次編列的這個包括普發現金的媒體的宣傳費達到1350萬喔"},{"start":144.787,"end":148.751,"text":"但是過去我們並不是第一次補發現金過去馬英九任內蔡總統任內我們都有補發現金過去我們今年剪裂過去我們編列到1550萬這一次剪裂了200萬但是我們看整體預算執行的效果"},{"start":163.185,"end":167.107,"text":"過去編列1550萬我們整理預算執行也達到99.69%那花的預算金額其實我們花了預算專檢我們花了819萬就已經達到了宣傳的效果那因為我今天時間有限我就希望請問部長"},{"start":186.858,"end":211.487,"text":"過去花了800多萬尊潔我們已經達到99.69%的效果你覺得我們花到1350萬你預計達到的成果是什麼有什麼不一樣你宣傳的管道媒體的效果跟過去有什麼不一樣為什麼要花那麼多的錢我今天為什麼要舉這個例子出來我覺得預算應該尊潔使用你可以告訴我"},{"start":212.327,"end":232.629,"text":"做法有什麼不一樣 管道有什麼不一樣預計達到的成果是百分之百嗎跟委員報告對於這個普發現金這樣的一個媒體宣導我們認為應該要更作為加強那當然您就說國人都很關心 大家都知道但是各種領取的方式我們還是要做詳細的解說我沒有說不給你喔"},{"start":235.331,"end":256.96,"text":"我是說過去花800多萬可以達到99.69%的效果多元的管道一樣都一樣在做同樣的宣傳你為什麼一定要花到1350萬跟委員報告還有這一次對於防炸的部分防炸的部分我們各部會現在都有編列相關的預算在做防炸"},{"start":257.62,"end":270.487,"text":"每一個政務的推動應該都在各政務列管底下做還有不同的受眾我們也要特別注意比如說看手機的我們的防詐本來就是不同的受眾都要宣傳除了領取的方式也要做宣傳還有各個時間點我只是舉例提出這件事情事實上我覺得應該達到專決的效果"},{"start":281.233,"end":297.485,"text":"我們在整合作的效果在如果是這樣我們每編列一筆政務預算或者跟民眾有關的我們是不是都要在另外的編列一筆預算來做防詐跨部會的防詐這是我要提醒你的地方因為只剩下22秒我請教育部部長時間先暫停一下我們請教育部長"},{"start":322.304,"end":341.197,"text":"部長我只要你看一個表格就好是你知道哪一個表格有一個表格預算哪一筆是特別預算哪一筆是115年度的總預算你看那個表格左邊的表格還是右邊的表格你不要打pass給他你問一下我問一下部長左邊左邊是什麼"},{"start":346.314,"end":366.185,"text":"又提升大專校院校務治理支持高教育產業合作共培人才部長你覺得這符合特別預算編列的精神嗎我們看一下特別預算編列四大精神是什麼我想主計長非常清楚災害應變 國防需求 經濟景氣變動 重大事故變動"},{"start":369.124,"end":385.746,"text":"我覺得每一項預算都很重要但是到底應該放在總預算來編或追加預算人才培育我支持但是可以放在追加預算跟委員報告日本因為這一次的國際集市他們編了一千億用來延攬人才部長"},{"start":386.767,"end":391.149,"text":"我沒有否定今年應該編但是你可以用追加預算來編因為我認為這項預算不符合特別預算編列的精神在我沒有否定喔不要最後去外面放話說我否定我沒有否定但是我認為應該用追加預算來編應該追加預算來編而不應該放在特別預算讓特別預算的編列服用濫用以上是我的質詢 謝謝總責 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都有一個目標你們主要都要提出計畫那高融呢"},{"start":347.543,"end":370.49,"text":"謝謝委員關心之前是協助台中農總一起經營諾魯所以目前依照委員的指示我覺得應該民間的醫院包括高醫等等他們都有國際醫療合作我們的公立醫院應該要有這個使命才對所以我希望說三四家農民醫院都能提出對友邦的醫療合作計畫另外所有同仁都很辛苦"},{"start":376.888,"end":399.956,"text":"這個包括我們主委那時候我們認社的時候是在大概二十幾年前那你還在八軍團當指揮官那時候我要先任我服務那時候這個救災我就對你非常欽佩所以任何工作都要戰戰兢兢的都要全力以赴絕對不能懈怠因為我們要做福國利民的事我們要所有人民安居樂業"},{"start":402.463,"end":418.475,"text":"另外很多農總的事情也許你們都很忙我也不可能說農總的這些選民服務或者民眾的需求反應我不可能直接跟主委講我一定跟院長講有時候院長忙我就需要很多的國會聯絡同仁國會聯絡同仁也很辛苦"},{"start":420.167,"end":435.982,"text":"葉麗玲 李文英 他們都很辛苦他們接到我們的電話我們已經拜託他他們就馬上去協助所以要對我們基層的這些我們這個為民服務的同仁要給他們多加油 多鼓勵謝謝院長 謝謝主委謝謝委員長 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你當然回答這樣我想我比較關心的是新竹的問題"},{"start":173.297,"end":191,"text":"我想部長我來自大新竹是大新竹是科技的重鎮新竹的科學園區我們讓無數家庭靠著工程師這樣的一個工作有一個安穩的生活但是我們最近聽說政府要協助美國要在他的本土"},{"start":191.661,"end":213.532,"text":"建列台湾科学园区刚才宗家兵委员也讲不管是法规面的问题整个园区服务的一个问题牵涉的面非常的广所以本席真的很担心尤其我们赖金泽总统在日前接受美国保守派名嘴赛斯顿的专访他表示说这个"},{"start":217.114,"end":232.93,"text":"政府支持台積電去美日德投資也樂意與美國一起努力讓美國再次偉大所以我要問部長讓美國再次偉大我們台灣到底要付出多少代價難道不應該是以台灣的利益為優先嗎"},{"start":234.051,"end":247.825,"text":"當然以台灣利益為先八號委員新竹的園區是全世界的典範我們現在一直在擴大新竹的聚落的一個行程現在只是擔心它的地跟水 電不足而已如果夠的話事實上我們會擴大它的"},{"start":249.787,"end":277.619,"text":"我想部長水電土地我自己居住在那邊我非常知道目前來講都沒有問題寶山地深水庫甚至也在規劃興建當中據我所了解所以水的問題都沒有問題當然電可能這部分可能要再加強土地當然我們科學園區三期我聽說好像明年也會有一個著落所以土地也會釋放出來所以我擔心的就是我剛才一直提的"},{"start":278.579,"end":295.082,"text":"如果我們要在美國建類科學園區啊這樣會不會肥了美國瘦了台灣啊不會是不是我們會把台積電送到美國現在連整個科學園區也要一起送過去啊不會送過去會不會是這個問題啊是把我們的能量的延伸"},{"start":296.693,"end":313.126,"text":"所以我們的力量我們地主台灣台灣的力量會更大今天你在這邊回答說能量的延伸但是我們還是很多產業界大家非常的擔心我們一直說要守護矽頓如果說在美國本土建造類台灣科學園區"},{"start":315.027,"end":334.43,"text":"這個是否會造成我們整個產業外移以及人才的流失這就好像NVIDIA為什麼要在台灣設立它的研發中心或總部就是因為它來這邊設立以後對NVIDIA是更好我想我的結論我希望我們政府面對美國的談判我們不是只有配合而已"},{"start":335.211,"end":364.503,"text":"我們要有自己的底線是要確保耕留台灣確保產業留在台灣一定的就業留在台灣一定實力留在台灣人民最擔心的不是僅有跟台美半導體的合作關係啊而是我們整個護國神山是不是會被整群搬走不會所以我想政府一定要考量以台灣利益為最優先是 立足台灣好 以上 謝謝好 我們謝謝林思明 趙偉接下來我們請李燕秀委員"},{"start":372.026,"end":372.912,"text":"謝謝主席 因為今天的時間"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時11分）謝謝主席，請經濟部龔部長、衛福部呂次長。"],["主席：請龔部長，還有呂次長。"],["龔部長明鑫：召委好。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我接續鍾佳濱委員的質詢，今年4月美國宣布對等關稅的時候，全臺灣從工廠的老闆到小攤販，大家都在擔心，怕物價漲、怕訂單掉、怕生活更難過。當時朝野都在喊政府要拿出辦法讓人民撐得下去、日子過得下去，行政院就提出韌性特別預算，金額從4,100億增加到現在的5,700億，聽起來增加很多，但是我們看內容，經濟部只有編列460億，占比大概是8%，國防、海防的安全韌性預算編列將近1,500億，占比大概27%，所以本席想要請問部長，這筆錢不是說要幫助企業嗎？要顧民生嗎？但是這樣的預算編列，要讓人民怎麼感受到民生經濟的韌性？老百姓只看到菜價一直在漲、電價一直在漲、物價在漲，韌性在哪裡？如此對於經濟上、對於產業紓困的規模是否會過小？對於美國貿易衝擊的力道，我們的強化是不是會不足？尤其現在面對232條款以及20%疊加關稅的談判正在進行中，產業界面對未來的困境仍然是在未定之數，政府此次編列5,500億的特別預算，經濟部的預算規模僅占8%，是否顯然低估了關稅的風險與衝擊？部長，請簡單回答。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們當初有做一個估算，如果是單純的關稅問題來講，那時候估的是32%，公布以後我們是用這樣的基礎來編列，當然後面的談判過程當中，也可能有滾動式的變化，這就是為什麼我們保留了200億，可以再做增減。至於剛剛提到的其他部分，因為國際情勢不單單只是關稅而已，還包括地緣政治和其他的情勢關係，所以為什麼要提升而會有其他的項目在這裡面，就我瞭解是這樣。"],["林委員思銘：部長，你大概回答這樣。我比較關心的是新竹的問題。部長，我來自大新竹，大新竹是科技的重鎮，新竹的科學園區讓無數家庭靠著工程師的工作，有一個安穩的生活，但是最近聽說政府要協助美國、要在它的本土建「類臺灣科學園區」，剛才鍾佳濱委員也講，不管是法規面的問題、整個園區服務的問題，牽涉面非常廣，所以本席真的很擔心，尤其賴清德總統在日前接受美國保守派名嘴賽斯頓的專訪時表示，政府支持台積電去美、日、德投資，也樂意與美國一起努力，讓美國再次偉大。所以我要問部長，讓美國再次偉大，臺灣到底要付出多少代價？難道不應該是以臺灣的利益為優先嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：當然以臺灣利益為優先。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，新竹的園區是全世界的典範，我們現在一直在擴大新竹這個聚落的形成，現在只是擔心它的地跟水、電不足而已，如果夠的話，我們會擴大它的能量……"],["林委員思銘：部長，水、電、土地，我自己居住在那邊，我非常知道，目前來講都沒有問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，都沒有問題，我們就會擴大它的……"],["林委員思銘：寶山第三水庫甚至也在規劃興建當中，據我所瞭解……"],["龔部長明鑫：所以像台積電在……"],["林委員思銘：所以水都沒有問題，當然電這個部分可能要再加強。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["林委員思銘：關於土地的部分，科學園區三期，我聽說好像明年也會有著落，所以土地也會釋放出來，我擔心的就是剛才一直提的，如果我們要在美國建類科學園區，這樣會不會肥了美國，瘦了臺灣？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會。"],["林委員思銘：是不是我們會把台積電送到美國……"],["龔部長明鑫：一定是互利雙贏。"],["林委員思銘：現在連整個科學園區也要一起送過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會送過去。"],["林委員思銘：會不會有這種問題啊？"],["龔部長明鑫：是把我們的能量延伸，我們立足臺灣，臺灣的力量會更大……"],["林委員思銘：部長，今天你在這邊回答是能量的延伸，但是很多產業界大家還是非常地擔心。我們一直說要守護矽盾，如果在美國本土建造類臺灣科學園區，是否會造成整個產業的外移以及人才的流失？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會，這就好像NVIDIA為什麼要在臺灣設立研發中心或總部，就是因為來這邊設立以後對NVIDIA是更好的。"],["林委員思銘：部長，因為時間的關係，我的結論是希望政府面對美國的談判，不是只有配合而已，我們要有自己的底線。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["林委員思銘：要確保根留臺灣……"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["林委員思銘：確保產業留在臺灣、就業留在臺灣……"],["龔部長明鑫：一定的。"],["林委員思銘：實力留在臺灣。人民最擔心的不是僅有臺美半導體的合作關係，而是我們整個護國神山是不是會被整群搬走？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會。"],["林委員思銘：我想政府一定要考量，以臺灣利益為最優先。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，一定立足臺灣。"],["林委員思銘：以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘召委。","接下來請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff03a1caf8526510028b1cbd8f3401de56a656cd2b685a6ecb83b03e28eaf265d4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:58:02 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跟社會大眾說這個凶險的確是非常的"},{"start":187.523,"end":213.519,"text":"可惡他在隨即殺人而且光天化日之下那我想這個我們聽素材研辦這個已經受壓症辦了那我們對這個行為我們也是不能饒恕所以我們很有關心的像這種的我們修法在法治上我們也把這故意殺人或者殺人未遂能夠處十年以上有期徒刑的這些我們又判刑我們是"},{"start":214.767,"end":243.31,"text":"是在修法是不給他假釋的一個機會所以我們想讓這些在法治上能夠對這些行為謝謝部長我們國民黨立法院黨團也提出某些死刑就是某些那個無期徒刑的狀況非常嚴重的基本上是不得假釋所以這是我們的立場但我要跟部長說今天真的很多的一些受害者"},{"start":244.181,"end":271.429,"text":"有些受害者抱歉他沒辦法講話了為什麼為什麼有些受害者沒辦法講話了為什麼這個我想委員問到一個很核心的問題因為如果被害人因為生命是不可恢復出損害所以受害者他如果說喪失了生命我想這個我們一定在法律上我們絕對是我跟部長說這位秋男他已經不是第一次"},{"start":272.658,"end":300.128,"text":"10年前他跟鄰居吵架找不到鄰居拿剪刀就到超商攻擊路人跟警察他自己都承認啊他說他殺紅眼要把氣出掉那最後呢依殺人未遂罪判8年8個月定宴服安刑依然是治安的炸彈可是我要跟部長講一個更嚴重的事情我看了真的到現在我都覺得無法接受無法理解我想請教部長"},{"start":303.258,"end":329.935,"text":"詐欺集團關61個人嚴不嚴重嚴不嚴重這個當然是很可惡這應該是破天荒了吧我相信部長我們台灣的治安史上有被關過61個人嗎有嗎有被囚禁61個人嗎有這個歷史記錄過嗎沒有吧詐欺集團沒有空前嘛對不對令人髮指多髮指來"},{"start":333.552,"end":350.278,"text":"2022年的台版柬埔寨事件祖賢、蘭道、杜南等人在桃園淡水關61個人除了收身搶劫財務嘴巴上掃毛巾、上手銬綁束帶關進三坪大的小房間"},{"start":352.109,"end":377.135,"text":"讀打電擊未讀一人跳樓輕生一人休克死亡一人未讀自死通通被棄屍荒野騙取將近4億元的不法所得好來囉高等法院最後判處祖賢杜南等人無期徒刑我真的我覺得我今天是這些受害人我想請問部長"},{"start":379.039,"end":407.102,"text":"如果嚴重到關61個人虐殺3個人都只是無期徒刑我真不知道台灣怎麼還會有死刑呢還有死刑的存在嗎來囉 更重要的是什麼警方最近才發現今年8月今年8月才突然發現你知道死的不止3個人吧當年那個案子死不止3個人吧部長知道嗎"},{"start":409.805,"end":436.546,"text":"這個事情我覺得部長你一定要知道因為真的太嚴重了你都剛剛講是死上空前的台灣真的沒有發生過關這麼多人然後直接在裡面虐殺的事情你知道死了不只三個人嗎部長你知道還有哪些往生者嗎部長知道嗎你不知道嘛你不知道嘛 我告訴你台中警方破貨炸團"},{"start":438.351,"end":465.036,"text":"結果裡面有一個犯案小弟叫志白他說當年的台版柬埔災案死的不止三個還有第四個有一個38歲的零性男子第一天進去就被打死了一進去就被打死到現在我要告訴大家請問部長冰山一角你看三年前的案子只查出三個"},{"start":467.108,"end":489.626,"text":"受害的死者現在結果三年後發現原來不止三個人那我想請問你到底多少人到底關了多少人到底殺了多少人真的知道嗎真的知道嗎根本不知道今天我在這邊為什麼要講這些事情我剛才一而再再而三的講為什麼"},{"start":492.113,"end":517.455,"text":"我們現在大法官實質廢死判決已經生效了沒有啦 現在還是有判死刑的案件有告訴你 來 部長你到現在都不敢跟我講一句話來來來 我告訴你什麼叫實質判死什麼叫實質廢死實質廢死 請問你除了賴清德今天要平息民怨執行的一個死刑犯現在多少死刑犯還沒執行請問你啊 你告訴我啊已經兩年過了36"},{"start":520.356,"end":534.782,"text":"还有36个非常谢谢你你这么云淡风轻这么自信满满还有36个什么时候执行这部分这部分又要看什么形式诉讼程序在省非常上述看很多我知道"},{"start":536.195,"end":551.549,"text":"幫你回答了嘛 我回答錯了嗎這個一定要照法律的規定來做都非常好啊 我當然知道你我太了解你了 你回答就是這些然後你還在幫大法官洗地我告訴你 來我跟你講沒關係 我告訴你你跟我已經講很多遍了"},{"start":552.881,"end":561.106,"text":"大法官今天至少對死刑判處設下很嚴格的門檻你不否認吧但是目前實務上還是有沒有設下如果說這個當然是來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":572.913,"end":599.987,"text":"既然這樣哪有實質的廢死我問你嘛你是不是跟我講地方法院還是有判死刑案件所以沒有實質廢死嘛你亂講就這個嘛簡單嘛所以實務上的實例上不是告訴這才是來我跟你講沒關係你要拗我隨便你拗我沒有拗啊這是法院的判決來來來我數字答點你我用數字答點你請問過世20年平均有多少殺人犯多少每年平均"},{"start":600.615,"end":615.712,"text":"我這目前沒有資料部長 你當然不知道 因為你不關心啦我不是不關心平均每年150位我告訴你 我幫你解答來 請問平均判死比例大概是多少判死刑大概是多少比例2%啦"},{"start":621.733,"end":650.44,"text":"還有越來越低的情形來 2000年到2015年民進黨執政之前你知道平均每年平均有多少人三省判死三省判死來請問多少人每年平均多少人三省判死你還是不知道第三個不知道3.25位三省判死來請問民進黨執政之後2016年到現在平均每年多少"},{"start":651.519,"end":680.2,"text":"三審判死多少多少你還是不知道0.33位請問每年三審判死的人數減少多少我幫你回答你還是不知道減少九成來這就是民進黨送給台灣司法改革的成果啦我直接跟你預告我跟你預告這還不會是最低的大法官實質廢死的判決出來之後設下八道所謂的"},{"start":682.12,"end":709.867,"text":"這個判決死刑的高門檻0.33不會是最低啦還會更低啦你跟我講地方法院判有什麼用啊上去上去上去就不見了啦就算判到最後你也不執行死刑也一樣不見啦委員那個我想我告訴你立法執行那我想是既定的但是程序同時要走程序部長我告訴你不要再拿程序當藉口你是法務部長"},{"start":711.423,"end":739.129,"text":"刑事司法政策有你的職責有你的職責我講的不是個案啦我是依法執行我講的不是個案啦你講依法執行叫個案所以那個法官那個我講的是司法今天你有司法立法的所謂的司法的一個法治責任法務部長不要跟我講你沒有這個責任喔對啊我講的對啊所以你不會反駁啊但我要跟你講今天我回頭要講部長我對你今天態度非常的不滿意"},{"start":740.987,"end":762.029,"text":"你今天如果心裡有一點點柔軟性 你去看看台版柬埔寨案的那些被害者 往生者你會願意為他們站出來講話 跟羅志強一樣沉冤埋血 已經不能說話了這個委員你說人命的損失的確是無可恢復的"},{"start":763.976,"end":776.743,"text":"最大的一個損害我想我們就站在一個為人伸冤的為死者說話的一個角度我想這個我們檢察官也就在一陣我告訴你我告訴你那些口頭的這些悲憫是沒有辦法讓人起死回生的"},{"start":786.806,"end":804.85,"text":"你這些所謂口頭的悲憫你還在幫大法官洗地的這種我絕對沒有幫大法官洗地沒關係你不認同是你的事情我告訴你剛剛回答就要幫大法官洗地我講的每一個數字是錯的嗎你回去 又試試答連我啊我跟你講 我告訴你我今天這件事就和上去 就這麼簡單因為我沒有辦法接受我沒有辦法接受我剛剛還是在最後一個結論告訴你"},{"start":816.923,"end":837.024,"text":"大法官實質廢死的判決什麼叫實質廢死就是加高判處死刑的門檻就叫實質廢死他讓今天的死刑判決越來越困難降低了九成不說他的判決憲法判決出來之後死刑的判決只會更少不會更多更重要的是什麼"},{"start":838.24,"end":855.583,"text":"你今天令人髮指到已經是慘絕人寰死上所無的台版柬埔案虐殺4個人虐殺4個人關61個人不罰所得4億元都不能判死有啦都有判"},{"start":856.805,"end":871.035,"text":"那個高雄高峰院二審也有良性的行為來來來 你等他等你 你等你執行你告訴我你等你執行死刑完你再跟我講這些我告訴你部長 部長 二審啊我剛剛講的是三審的數據 你還跟我講二審你跟我講地方法院這不是詭辯 什麼是詭辯這不是洗地 什麼是洗地"},{"start":883.422,"end":889.352,"text":"你認住了嘛你 都傻了三秒鐘我剛剛問題是三審 你跟我講一審二審你的幕僚不盡責啦"},{"start":895.233,"end":915.502,"text":"第一個二審三審的給你啦這個判不判死 我們要尊重法院的判決來了來了喔 厲害了啦被我抓包開始 惱羞成怒啊我沒有惱羞成怒被我抓包惱羞成怒 拿資料想要糊弄大家我執行講究三審我執行講究三審你拿一審二審跟我講什麼最後還是一句話啦部長我不是衝著你個人來啦"},{"start":922.622,"end":946.725,"text":"你真的不需要幫大法官洗地真的不需要今天以法務部長身份告訴大家說你也不能認同大法官這種決定因為他今天就侵犯了受害者伸冤的權利死者不能講話我羅志強幫他講話家屬今天正義不得伸張我今天幫家屬伸張正義"},{"start":948.291,"end":967.421,"text":"我一路走來就始終如一我也這件事會繼續盯下去就這麼簡單結果我跟你講你們偉大的民進黨政府跟官員們連我們立法院提出來的反廢死公投都要沒收跟你沒關係跟你沒關係來 跟你沒關係我講的不是你 我講的是中選會你不用緊張我現在要罵的是中選會中選會不在 我不要罵你"},{"start":974.639,"end":999.309,"text":"今天我就問你部長 你也是法律守門人公投法哪一條規定今天中選會可以不辦立法院通過的公投舉一個條文給我聽聽看這個我沒辦法幫中選會來回答這個問題你賴清德愛將你怎麼會去打同僚呢我知道啊 懂啊 了解明白啊法務部長就是法律守門人"},{"start":1001.482,"end":1011.197,"text":"你跟我講你不知道那你當什麼法務部長法律條文清清楚楚明明白你是法律的你不會不知道你只不敢講謝謝你好 謝謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":944,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時58分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。苗栗中秋連假發生了隨機殺人事件，這個你知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個媒體有廣大報導，嫌犯已經被聲請羈押獲准了。"],["羅委員智強：好。他刺傷兩名女童跟一位見義勇為的正義哥林姓男子。剛開始林姓男子跟一位女童一度命危，送到加護病房，但是關鍵是什麼？關鍵是這位邱姓男子其實在10年前的同一地點砍殺了4個人。我想請教一下，林男的女兒曾經針對這個事件向政府公開呼籲司法改革，請問部長你有看到這位正義哥林姓男子的女兒的呼籲嗎？有掌握了解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想對正義哥的見義勇為，身受重傷，我們祝他早日康復，對這些義舉我們非常地欽佩。我想司法的改革是永無止境的。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得部長你應該是沒看到，因為你跟我一貫看到的部長一樣，你就是開始天空盤旋，轉、轉、轉。林男的女兒說，他從來沒有想過新聞裡的隨機殺人事件會發生在自己家人身上，他希望可以真正地落實死刑。因為像這種吸毒惡犯已經沒有教化可能，放出來會再次對無辜民眾的安全造成威脅。他要請政府跟執政黨正視並改善治安問題，隨機砍人的事件頻傳，這就是司法制度不健全跟社會安全網破裂所造成的後果，這一次是我爸爸，下一次又會是誰？他認為，兇手在10年前第一次犯案，如果就能夠重刑相待的話，今天悲劇就不會發生了，他的父親也不會受到這麼嚴重的傷害。他也講到他的父親前胸、後背各中一刀，傷及內臟及橫隔膜，到現在還呼吸困難，這樣的痛苦兇手永遠無法理解，而身為家人，又只能承受這種傷害跟陰影！","所以我想請教部長，聽完這位正義哥女兒的陳述，你有什麼想法想跟他說、跟社會大眾說？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個兇嫌的確是非常可惡，他隨機殺人，而且在光天化日之下，這個我們已經速查嚴辦、收押偵辦了。對這個行為我們也是不能饒恕，所以委員關心像這種的我們修法，在法制上也把故意殺人或者殺人未遂能夠處10年以上有期徒刑的這些，我們有判刑，我們修法是不給他假釋的機會。所以我們想在法制上對這些行為能夠更加……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝部長，國民黨立法院黨團也提出某些死刑，就是某些無期徒刑的狀況非常嚴重的，基本上是不得假釋，這是我們的立場。但我要跟部長說，今天真的有些受害者，抱歉，他沒辦法講話了，為什麼？為什麼？有些受害者沒辦法講話了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員問到一個很核心的問題，因為生命是不可回復的損害。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以受害者如果喪失了生命，在法律上我們絕對是嚴辦。"],["羅委員智強：這位邱男已經不是第一次了，10年前他跟鄰居吵架，找不到鄰居，就拿剪刀到超商攻擊路人跟警察，他自己都承認，他說他殺紅眼要把氣出掉。最後依殺人未遂罪判8年8個月定讞，服完刑依然是治安的炸彈。","可是我要跟部長講一個更嚴重的事情，我看了真的……到現在我都覺得無法接受、無法理解。我想請教部長，詐欺集團關61個人嚴不嚴重？嚴不嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個當然是很可惡。"],["羅委員智強：這應該是破天荒了吧！我相信，部長，臺灣治安史上有被關過達61個人的嗎？有嗎？有被囚禁的達61個人嗎？有這個歷史紀錄嗎？沒有吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：空前。"],["羅委員智強：詐欺集團沒有吧？空前，對不對？令人髮指！有多令人髮指？2022年臺版柬埔寨事件，主嫌「藍道」杜男等人在桃園淡水關61個人，除了搜身搶劫財物，嘴巴上毛巾、上手銬、綁束帶、關進3坪大的小房間，毒打、電擊、餵毒，1人跳樓輕生、1人休克死亡、1人餵毒致死，通通被棄屍荒野，騙取將近四億元的不法所得，高等法院最後判處主嫌杜男等人無期徒刑。我真的覺得，我今天是……這些受害人，我想請問部長，如果嚴重到關61個人，虐殺3個人，都只是無期徒刑，我真不知道臺灣怎麼還會有死刑呢？還有死刑的存在嗎？","更重要的是什麼？警方今年8月才突然發現，你知道死的不只3個人吧？當年那個案子死的不只3個人吧？部長知道嗎？這個事情我覺得部長你一定要知道，因為真的太嚴重了，你剛剛都講是史上空前的，臺灣真的沒有發生過關這麼多人然後直接在裡面虐殺的事情！你知道死的不只3個人嗎？部長，你知道還有哪些往生者嗎？部長知道嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分……"],["羅委員智強：你不知道嘛！你不知道。我告訴你，臺中警方破獲詐團，結果裡面有一個犯案小弟自白，他說當年的臺版柬埔寨案死的不只3個，還有第4個，有一個38歲的林姓男子第一天進去就被打死了！一進去就被打死。到現在，我要告訴大家，冰山一角，你看3年前的案子，只查出3個受害的死者，結果3年後發現原來不只3個人。那我想請問你，到底多少人？到底關了多少人、到底殺了多少人，真的知道嗎？真的知道嗎？根本不知道！","今天我在這邊為什麼要講這些事情？我剛才一而再、再而三地講，為什麼？我們現在大法官實質廢死的判決已經生效了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有啦！現在還是有判死刑的案件。"],["羅委員智強：有？告訴你，部長，你到現在都不敢跟我講一句話……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個國民法官……高雄的有，一個國民法官的案件還是有判死刑。"],["羅委員智強：來，我告訴你什麼叫實質判死！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是實質廢死。"],["羅委員智強：實質廢死就是，請問你，除了賴清德今天要平息民怨執行的一個死刑犯，現在有多少死刑犯還沒執行？請問你啊！你告訴我。已經兩年過去啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：36。"],["羅委員智強：還有36個啊！非常謝謝你，你這麼雲淡風輕、這麼自信滿滿，還有36個啊！什麼時候執行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["羅委員智強：這部分又要看什麼刑事訴訟程序、再審、非常上訴？看很多了啦！我知道，幫你回答了嘛！我回答錯了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個一定要照法律的規定來處理。"],["羅委員智強：都非常好啊！我當然知道你，我太了解你了，你的回答就是這些。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是法律的程序嘛！"],["羅委員智強：然後你還在幫大法官洗地。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有喔！這個……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，我告訴你，你跟我已經講很多遍了。大法官今天至少對死刑判處設下很嚴格的門檻，你不否認吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但目前實務上還是……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有設下……"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果說……這個當然是有設一些要件……"],["羅委員智強：實務上，沒關係，我來告訴你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是現在國民法官……"],["羅委員智強：我懂你的邏輯，你跟我講地方法院還是有判死刑的案件。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以既然這樣，哪有實質廢死？"],["羅委員智強：我問你，你是不是跟我講地方法院還是有判死刑的案件，所以沒有實質廢死，你的論點就是這個、簡單嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以實務上的實例上不是告訴……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，沒關係，你要拗，隨便你拗！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有拗，這是法院的判決。"],["羅委員智強：你再拗！來，我用數字打臉你。請問過去20年平均有多少殺人犯？多少？每年平均？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前我沒有資料。"],["羅委員智強：部長，你當然不知道，因為你不關心啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不是不關心，這個……"],["羅委員智強：平均每年150位！我告訴你，我幫你解答。請問平均判死比例大概是多少？判死刑大概是多少比例？2%啦！還有越來越低的情形。","2000年到2015年，民進黨執政之前，你知道每年平均有多少人三審判死？請問有多少人、每年平均多少人三審判死？你還是不知道！第三個不知道。3.25位三審判死。","請問民進黨執政之後，2016年到現在，平均每年多少人三審判死？多少？多少？你還是不知道！0.33位。請問每年三審判死的人數減少多少？我幫你回答，你還是不知道！減少九成。","這就是民進黨送給臺灣司法改革的成果，我直接跟你預告，我跟你預告這還不會是最低的！大法官實質廢死的判決出來之後，設下八道所謂判決死刑的高門檻，0.33位不會是最低，還會更低啦！你跟我講地方法院判的有什麼用！上去、上去、上去就不見了，就算判到最後你不執行死刑也一樣不見啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，依法執行，我想是既定的……但都是要走程序。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我告訴你，不要再拿程序當藉口，你是法務部長，刑事司法政策有你的職責……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我法務部長要依法……"],["羅委員智強：有你的職責，我講的不是個案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們要依法執行……"],["羅委員智強：我講的不是個案，你講依法執行叫個案……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對於那個法官……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是司法，今天你有司法立法的所謂司法法制責任，法務部長不要跟我講你沒有這個責任喔！","對啊！我講的是對的，所以你不會反駁啊！但今天我要回頭跟你講，部長，我對你今天的態度非常不滿，你今天如果心裡有一點點柔軟性，去看看那些臺版柬埔寨案的被害者、往生者，你會願意為他們站出來講話，跟羅智強一樣，沉冤埋雪，已經不能說話了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，人命的損失的確是一個無可回復的最大損害，我想我們就站在一個為人伸冤、為死者說話的角度……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，部長，你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們檢察官也就在一個……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，部長，我告訴你，口頭的那些悲憫是沒有辦法讓人起死回生的，你這些所謂的口頭悲憫，還在幫大法官洗地的這種態度……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我絕對沒有幫大法官洗地……"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我們是依法執行……"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你不認同是你的事情，我告訴你，剛剛的回答就是在幫大法官洗地……"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果說沒有依法執行，我幹嘛要……"],["羅委員智強：我講的每一個數字是錯的嗎？你回去用數字打臉我啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：核發一個死刑令，我執行過死刑。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，我告訴你，今天這件事我就豁上去，就這麼簡單，因為我沒有辦法接受、我沒有辦法接受，我剛剛還在……最後一個結論告訴你，大法官實質廢死的判決，什麼叫實質廢死？就是加高判處死刑的門檻，就叫實質廢死，他讓今天的死刑判決越來越困難，降低了九成不說，憲法判決出來之後，死刑的判決只會更少，不會更多。更重要的是什麼？今天令人髮指到已經是慘絕人寰、史上所無的臺版柬埔寨案，虐殺4個人，關61個人，不法所得4億元，都不能判死！"],["鄭部長銘謙：有啦！都有判，高雄高分院二審後，梁姓嫌犯殺害馬國女大生案也是判死刑啊！"],["羅委員智強：來、來，等你執行死刑完後，再跟我講這些。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外高雄地院有一個吳姓男子，在2名幼子面前殺害一對夫妻，也是判死刑啊！"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，部長，我剛剛講的是三審的數據，你卻跟我講二審、跟我講地方法院，這不是詭辯，什麼是詭辯？這不是洗地，什麼是洗地？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你這個問題……"],["羅委員智強：你愣住了嘛！就傻了3秒鐘。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有愣住……"],["羅委員智強：我剛剛問你的是三審，你跟我講一審、二審……"],["鄭部長銘謙：你講這話是偏頗的……"],["羅委員智強：你的幕僚不盡責啦！不遞個三審的給你啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：判不判死，我們要尊重法院的判決……"],["羅委員智強：來了！來了！厲害了！被我抓包，開始惱羞成怒啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有惱羞成怒。"],["羅委員智強：被我抓包，惱羞成怒，拿資料想要糊弄大家……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有，這是具體的……"],["羅委員智強：我質詢講的是三審，你拿一審、二審跟我講什麼！最後還是一句話，部長，我不是衝著你個人來，你真的不需要幫大法官在那邊洗地，我跟你講，真的不需要啦！你今天就以法務部長身分告訴大家，你也不能認同大法官這種決定啦！因為他今天侵犯的是什麼？是受害者伸冤的權利！死者不能講話，我羅智強幫他講話，今天家屬的正義不能伸張，我幫家屬伸張正義，我告訴你，我一路走來始終如一，這件事我也會繼續盯下去，就這麼簡單，結果我跟你講，你們偉大的民進黨政府跟官員們，連我們立法院提出來的反廢死公投都要沒收……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你忘掉了，你以前就質疑我不會執行死刑……"],["羅委員智強：跟你沒關係、跟你沒關係……"],["鄭部長銘謙：你有沒有道歉過？"],["羅委員智強：跟你沒關係，我講的不是你，我講的是中選會，你不用緊張，我現在罵的是中選會，中選會不在，我不是要罵你。今天我就問你部長，你也是法律守門人，公投法哪一條規定今天中選會可以不辦立法院通過的公投案？舉一個條文給我聽聽看！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法幫中選會回答這個問題。"],["羅委員智強：當然啦！你是賴清德愛將，怎麼會去打同僚呢？我知道啊！懂啊！了解、明白啊！法務部長就是法律守門人，你跟我講你不知道，那你當什麼法務部長！法律條文清清楚楚、明明白白，你是法律人，不會不知道，你只是不敢講！謝謝你。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員。在這邊也要提醒部長，可能之後委員垂詢時，儘量不要用比較不禮貌的語氣去反駁委員，拜託，謝謝。","依照之前的宣告，我們現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後再開始。","休息（11時15分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。接下來請傅崐萁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00001"}}},{"id":"163891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff02163bb1cd78fb224be54350a1c84db6b656cd2b685a6ecb832eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:07:25 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但是我說萬一今年底沒辦法完成整個程序他是不是一樣可以追溯是不是如果明年發布還是可以追溯"},{"start":91.844,"end":101.829,"text":"還是可以接受還是可以接受好第一個第二個這個你這裡面這個事業很多了最賺錢哪幾個事業目前或者績效最好的新桃桃園轉投資事業桃園的天然氣控室"},{"start":112.264,"end":141.867,"text":"你們我查了一下你們幾乎六成以上都跟天然氣有關係了那這個現在我們的人員政策大改變啦那比如說阿拉斯卡我們要跟他要替他蓋他的一個叫做人員的基礎建設四千六百億我們分在三分之一那這些林林總總會增加阿拉斯卡這邊的增加跟美國採購的這個會不會影響到我們要退回相關的事業會不會"},{"start":145.634,"end":167.351,"text":"這個不會影響到我們的事業經營完全沒有你們的產業鏈裡面你們是負責哪一塊我們是末端的銷售天然氣公司我們是末端銷售所以他進來怎麼樣跟你們沒有關係第三個最後一個問題就是我們在照顧裡面這個我查了一下根據美國"},{"start":170.914,"end":196.113,"text":"新聞週刊Newsweek它在發布2025年全球最佳醫院排名這個北龍排全球208名是全台灣唯一進入前250名的醫院這個績效非常好啊你對北龍要不要加強一下"},{"start":198.661,"end":208.103,"text":"北榮總副院長在這裡這個不是 你主委是他的老闆老闆講個話吧 你要肯定一下他們做得很好 他們很辛苦不是 可是我所了解北榮他本業不太賺錢這個院長要不要講一下本業不太賺錢是 謝謝委員的關心我們本業確實是比較困難很辛苦 你都是等於業外收入比較多對吧 沒錯吧 院長我們不過現在點值健保點值穩定一點之後我們就會比較越來越好"},{"start":228.168,"end":233.191,"text":"你希望我們退伍會怎麼支持你啊 你還講我中邪給你都不會講會面給我們很多的幫忙 不過我想我們最主要的大部分醫療還是醫療業務還是來自於衛福部比較多好 那你希望衛福部怎麼樣 點子提高"},{"start":245.242,"end":250.946,"text":"回到我們原來講的賴總統講的請問一下1.幾塊錢你告訴我北龍1.幾塊錢好跟委員報告按照目前為止目前最新的點值可以到0.95左右你們北龍沒有0.95啦隨便講跟委員報告就是今年的你有0.95嗎今年的第二季確實是0.95以上了以前呢以前大概都不到0.9了多少以前多少以前大概0.8幾這樣子0.8幾啊"},{"start":273.721,"end":289.607,"text":"到0.95你要感謝我們立法院不斷push這個事情啦對不對 感謝衛生部要感謝立法院不斷push你啦讓0.8幾點 0.95啊對你們稍微好一點啦 不然的話北龍我所 我看了一下你們資料跟長庚不能比啊 幾乎"},{"start":290.687,"end":305.849,"text":"憲法會幾乎全部相當高比例是藏根拿走嘛對不對林口藏根嘛最最那個的北龍來講相對在在你看在整個世界ranking這麼前面可是相對之間拿的不多這個這個研修委可要爭取一下了好不好好好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":516,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時7分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["賴委員士葆：我的題目很簡單，也只有3分鐘。第一題就是上一次有委員關心，有關於退役官兵子女教育補助沒有編的問題，你那時候回答說，這個要會同教育部報院，現在能不能給我們一個時間表，到底你心目中什麼時候可以把他放進來？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我們已經完成法定程序，因為退輔會公告之後，我們自己要做預告，預告程序完成了，然後我們就報行政院。因為行政院要我們報上去，報上去的理由就是因為跨部會，跨到教育部還有人事總處，讓他們再做最後的審視。我們的發放辦法裡面明定是8月1號可以生效，但是行政院什麼時候核下來，現在還不知道，如果在年底之前就可以核下來，可以追溯這個學期，大家都可以去……"],["賴委員士葆：那萬一年底沒有咧？預算就沒有啦？"],["嚴主任委員德發：預算我們沒有問題……"],["賴委員士葆：萬一年底沒有，怎麼辦？萬一年底沒有了呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：那就看那個……"],["賴委員士葆：年底還沒有過，因為這個還很冗長，還要到教育部，還要到人事總處……"],["嚴主任委員德發：還是可以追溯。"],["賴委員士葆：還要到行政院。當然你可以追溯，但是我說如果萬一今年底沒辦法完成整個程序，他是不是一樣可以追溯，是不是？"],["嚴主任委員德發：如果明年發布還是可以追溯。"],["賴委員士葆：還是可以追溯？"],["嚴主任委員德發：對。"],["賴委員士葆：還是可以追溯？"],["嚴主任委員德發：還是可以追溯。"],["賴委員士葆：好，這是第一個。第二個，你們退輔會裡面的事業很多，最賺錢的是哪幾個事業？或者績效最好的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：目前是欣桃，轉投資事業桃園的天然氣公司。"],["賴委員士葆：我查了一下，你們幾乎六成以上的事業都跟天然氣有關係。現在我們的能源政策大改變，比如說阿拉斯加，我們要替他蓋一個能源的基礎建設4,600億，我們分擔三分之一，這些林林總總以後會增加對美國的採購，這個會不會影響到退輔會相關的事業，會不會？"],["嚴主任委員德發：我請事業處處長跟你說明。"],["楊處長長政：委員好。這個不會影響到我們的事業經營。"],["賴委員士葆：完全沒有？"],["楊處長長政：完全沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：你們的產業鏈裡面，你們是負責哪一塊的？"],["楊處長長政：我們是末端的銷售，我們的天然氣公司是負責末端的銷售。"],["賴委員士葆：所以他進來怎麼樣跟你們沒有關係，是嗎？"],["楊處長長政：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好。第三個最後一個問題就是，我們在照顧裡面，我查了一下，根據美國新聞週刊Newsweek所發布的2025年全球最佳醫院排名，北榮排名全球第208名，是全臺灣唯一進入前250名的醫院，這個績效非常好，你對北榮要不要嘉獎一下？"],["嚴主任委員德發：臺北榮總副院長在這裡。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，主委你是他的老闆，老闆講個話吧！你要肯定一下。"],["嚴主任委員德發：他們做得很好，他們很辛苦。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，可是我所了解，北榮的本業不太賺錢，這個院長要不要講一下，本業不太賺錢耶。"],["李副院長偉強：是，謝謝委員的關心，我們本業確實是比較困難。"],["賴委員士葆：很辛苦啊！你都是等於業外收入比較多啊，對吧？沒錯吧？院長。"],["李副院長偉強：不過現在健保點值穩定一點之後，我們就會越來越好。"],["賴委員士葆：你希望退輔會怎麼支持你啊？你要講，我做球給你了，不會講，你看看。"],["李副院長偉強：會裡面也給我們很多的幫忙，不過我想我們最主要的、大部分的醫療業務還是來自於衛福部比較多。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那你希望衛福部怎麼樣？點值提高，回到我們原來講的，賴總統講的。請問一下，一點幾塊錢，你告訴我，北榮一點幾塊錢？"],["李副院長偉強：好，跟委員報告，到目前為止，目前最新的點值可以到0.95左右。"],["賴委員士葆：你們北榮沒有0.95啦！都隨便講。"],["李副院長偉強：跟委員報告，就今年的第……"],["賴委員士葆：你有0.95嗎？"],["李副院長偉強：今年的第二季確實是0.95以上了。"],["賴委員士葆：以前呢？"],["李副院長偉強：以前大概都不到0.9。"],["賴委員士葆：多少？以前多少？"],["李副院長偉強：以前大概零點八幾這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：從零點八幾到0.95，你要感謝我們立法院不斷push這個事情，對不對？感謝衛福部也要感謝立法院，不斷push你，讓零點八幾變0.95，對你們稍微好一點，不然的話，我看了一下你們北榮的資料，跟長庚不能比，健保費幾乎全部相當高比例是長庚拿走嘛，對不對？林口長庚是最多的。北榮來講，你看，相對在全世界rating這麼前面，可是相對地資源拿的不多，這個嚴主委可以要爭取一下，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝賴委員。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有陳永康委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請退輔會以書面於兩週內答復，委員另約定期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-2","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","林楚茵","黃仁","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","邱志偉","賴惠員","林憶君","賴士葆","陳永康"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00011"}}},{"id":"163890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff036ecb069ddc1ee2e2b1f00580874b155656cd2b685a6ecb83b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:05:40 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主席在場的委員先進列席的政府經濟環保官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部鞏部長來 請起我們經濟部鞏部長總委好部長好 部長請教一下輝達NVIDIA是台灣公司還是美國公司"},{"start":26.329,"end":42.256,"text":"輝達應該算是美國公司那請問如果NVIDIA來到台灣投資社國外總部是不是會掏空美國應該不會那你認為是不是各國包括政府都會全力爭取輝達NVIDIA到他的國家設立總部"},{"start":43.908,"end":72.268,"text":"會應該會嘛每個國家每個政府都會這樣做嘛那如果台北市政府為了這件事情他去修法或修改契約你認為會構成圖利揮打嗎NVIDIA嗎這個就要法規上來判斷如果政府權力包括中央政府我們修法或修改契約爭取他來台灣設立總部這應該是國人所熱見的會有圖利揮打NVIDIA還是圖利台灣呢"},{"start":72.828,"end":93.317,"text":"日前那個內政部的劉部長有做說明如果說他們台北市變更了以後然後經過議會同意然後送到行政院來備訪只要經過合法的程序就不會有圖利的問題很好那請問經濟部你是否願意爭取包括像NVIDIA這樣的先進產業包括不限於輝達像這樣的公司來到台灣設廠投資當然"},{"start":95.078,"end":121.932,"text":"事实上我们跟辉达已经有在合作的案子就是Aplus计划就是共同有一个研发计划正在执行当中所以他们在台湾也有设立了这个研发中心所以经济部是乐见其成也是有机会有去全力争取就对了好 我们来看一下那你怎么看待台湾的产业到美国投资如果美国的厂商到台湾投资不是掏空美国那台湾的产业到美国投资有人说是掏空台湾吗"},{"start":123.771,"end":146.153,"text":"你是否同意包括我們施政榮先生說的話他說如果台灣產業到美國投資是擴張我們的能力把國力淹上美國去人才土地水電用當地的美國的本土的技術或資金建立起來他如果是這樣反而是我們競爭者但是我們過去就是全球布局你是否認同將台灣的國力擴張到包括美國這樣的世界布局"},{"start":147.004,"end":160.824,"text":"當然 因為將來是一個AI競爭的一個社會或社會秩序所以你認同施政榮先生的這番話認同好 我往下看那我們的政務院長說台灣模式投資美國什麼叫台灣模式"},{"start":162.106,"end":186.995,"text":"是要企業自主規劃但是政府負責整合民間然後政府要提供金融信保機制然後台美之間的G2G政府對政府的模式讓產業聚落形成構成一個良好的投資環境你認為這是政府院長的台灣模式這是副院長說明的好 那經濟部有在落實嗎目前經濟部所在做的你認為台灣的產業聚落到美國需要哪些條件配合"},{"start":188.092,"end":216.768,"text":"八號委員就是這個我們還是要尊重美國的在地協助水電要解決對不對行政程序土地要解決基礎設施還有簽證的法規是不是要處理那說這樣就夠了嗎這樣你說單純這樣還夠嗎就夠了嗎還不夠還不夠好我們看一看來所謂的經濟部是不是有個原管局是不是產業園區管理局過去在台灣這幾十年來創造了一個模式叫做什麼叫做單一窗口一戰四服對不對是"},{"start":218.028,"end":242.372,"text":"經濟部很擅長嘛你看我們呢包括土地水電行政程序都還有基礎設施剛剛講過的簽證法規金融信保包括環境勞工消防稅務還有補助研發跟法規通通都是一站式的服務單一窗口對不對是請問這樣的模式如果搬到美國去美國當地的法規會允許我們台灣這樣延伸嗎延伸我們的政府服務"},{"start":243.514,"end":271.303,"text":"這個就是要我們跟美國政府來做對談很好 所以趕快做我們往下看所以我們來看一下輸出台灣經驗形成產業聚落我們企業出海我們要得到經濟部的支持我們可以在金融信保補助跟研發等等等但是相對的這些輔導措施涉及到當地的當地國政府的行政程序他對環境勞工消防稅務的法規是不是也要遵守當地的法尊"},{"start":272.487,"end":295.316,"text":"是所以說這個輔導的部分我們台灣政府要輔導我們台灣的產業到其他國家形成產業聚落後面的輔導是不是很重要是好 那往下看那是不是經濟部你已經針對現有的原管局的單一窗口跟一站式的服務項目基於未來台灣產業要出海要到境外那麼有開始針對哪一個國家當地的法規盤點來來盤來"},{"start":298.657,"end":312.225,"text":"來探討我們台灣政府有沒有可能持續這種一戰式的服務到境外他國的境內我們的境外他國的境內去協助台灣的產業發展居落經濟部做好準備沒有"},{"start":313.138,"end":331.71,"text":"我們事實上一直有在做這樣的準備至少對當然民間企業有TIMA在他們想要做這件事情那政府的部分已經有開始的主要是我們有一個這個服務中心已經開始啟動了好你們服務中心是有對海外境外的"},{"start":333.309,"end":357.395,"text":"產業俱樂部進行服務了嗎就是說我們在捷克對 捷克喔請針對現有經濟部的單一窗口一站式的服務就未來台灣產業到境外我們當地的法規是否允許我們提供這樣的支持跟輔導研擬方案一個月提出說明報告可以嗎好的好 謝謝好 謝謝我們中間嘉賓委員接下來我們請林思敏召委"},{"start":360.255,"end":367.349,"text":"林世民召委質詢結束之後換一個李彥秀委員李彥秀委員質詢完之後我們就休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":768,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時5分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請經濟部龔部長。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：請經濟部龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。部長，請教一下，輝達（NVIDIA）是臺灣公司還是美國公司？"],["龔部長明鑫：輝達應該算是美國公司。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。請問，如果NVIDIA來到臺灣投資設國外總部，是不是會掏空美國？"],["龔部長明鑫：應該不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該不會？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為是不是各國包括政府都會全力爭取輝達（NVIDIA）到他的國家設立總部？"],["龔部長明鑫：會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：應該會嘛！每個國家、每個政府都會這樣做嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果臺北市政府為了這件事情去修法或修改契約，你認為會構成圖利輝達（NVIDIA）嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個就要法規上來判斷。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果政府全力，包括中央政府，我們修法或修改契約爭取他來臺灣設立總部，這應該是國人所樂見的，會有圖利輝達（NVIDIA）還是圖利臺灣呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：日前內政部劉部長有作說明，如果臺北市變更以後經過議會同意，然後送到行政院來備查就可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只要經過合法的程序，就不會有圖利的問題？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。請問一下經濟部，你是否願意爭取包括像NVIDIA這樣的先進產業，包括但不限於輝達，像這樣的公司來到臺灣設廠投資？"],["龔部長明鑫：當然！"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：事實上，我們跟輝達已經有在合作的案子──A+計畫，就是共同有一個研發計畫正在執行當中，所以他們在臺灣也有設立了研發中心。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經濟部是樂見其成，也是有機會就會全力爭取就對了？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你怎麼看待臺灣的產業到美國投資？如果美國的廠商到臺灣投資不是掏空美國，那臺灣的產業到美國投資，有人說是掏空臺灣嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們如果……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是否同意，包括施振榮先生說的話，他說如果臺灣產業到美國投資是擴張我們的能力，把國力延伸到美國去，人才、土地、水電用當地的，如果是美國本土的技術或資金建立起來，這樣反而是我們的競爭者，但是我們過去就是全球布局，你是否認同將臺灣的國力擴張到包括美國這樣的世界布局？"],["龔部長明鑫：當然，因為將來是一個AI競爭的社會或社會秩序，是非常重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你認同施振榮先生的這番話？"],["龔部長明鑫：認同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們的鄭副院長說臺灣模式投資美國，什麼叫臺灣模式？是要企業自主規劃，但是政府負責整合民間，然後政府要提供金融信保機制，透過臺美之間G2G（政府對政府）模式，讓產業聚落形成，構成一個良好的投資環境，你認為這是不是鄭副院長的臺灣模式？"],["龔部長明鑫：這是副院長說明的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，經濟部有在落實嗎？目前經濟部所做的，你認為臺灣的產業聚落到美國需要哪些條件配合？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這個我們還是要遵照……"],["鍾委員佳濱：美國的在地協助、水電要解決，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，這個是在地協助，本來就是要解決。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有行政程序、土地、基礎設施還有簽證法規，是不是都要處理？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這樣就夠了嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：你說單純這樣還是不夠。"],["鍾委員佳濱：單純這樣就夠了嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：還不夠。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還不夠，我們看，經濟部是不是有個園管局，是不是？產業園區管理局？過去在臺灣這幾十年來創造了一個模式叫做什麼？叫做單一窗口、一站式服務，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部很擅長嘛！你看包括土地、水、電、行政程序，還有基礎設施，剛剛講過的簽證法規、金融信保，包括環境、勞工、消防、稅務，還有補助、研發跟法規，統統都是一站式的服務、單一窗口，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問這樣的模式如果搬到美國去，美國當地的法規會允許臺灣這樣延伸嗎？延伸我們的政府服務？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個就是要我們跟美國政府對談。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！所以趕快做。我們來看一下，輸出臺灣經驗形成產業聚落，我們企業出海要得到經濟部的支持，可以在金融信保、補助跟研發等等，但是相對的，這些輔導措施涉及到當地國政府的行政程序、環境、勞工、消防、稅務及法規，是不是也要遵守當地的法遵？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以關於輔導的部分，臺灣政府要輔導我們臺灣的產業到其他國家形成產業聚落，後面的輔導是不是很重要？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。經濟部是不是已經針對現有園管局的單一窗口跟一站式服務項目，基於未來臺灣產業要出海到境外，開始針對哪一個國家當地的法規盤點，探討臺灣政府有沒有可能持續這種一站式的服務，到我們的境外、他國的境內，去協助臺灣的產業發展聚落？經濟部做好準備沒有？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們事實上一直有在做這樣的準備，當然民間企業有TEEMA想要做這件事情，政府的部分已經開始了，我們主要是有一個服務中心已經開始啟動，包括……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，服務中心有對海外、境外的產業聚落進行服務了嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：譬如說，我們在捷克跟日本……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。結論，請針對現有經濟部的單一窗口及一站式的服務，就未來臺灣產業到境外，當地的法規是否允許我們提供這樣的支持跟輔導研擬方案，1個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","接下來請林思銘召委，林思銘召委質詢結束之後換李彥秀委員，李彥秀委員質詢完之後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163889","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163889","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff07f5e5780bb18b313be54350a1c84db6b656cd2b685a6ecb86365cf59414950575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:56:41 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請嚴主委林委員好主委好 首先我先針對退伍會在業務報告裡面中有提到針對這次花蓮發生的馬太安堰澀湖的災害重創了花蓮縣的光復鄉然後你們不但立即鼓勵"},{"start":24.329,"end":26.41,"text":"啟動了整個榮民的服務的關懷花蓮榮福處的職員們還有榮興志工都在災害的時候號召夥伴們都前往光復的災區協助進行整個清理的家園退福會也所屬的台北榮總的育理的分院"},{"start":42.742,"end":46.184,"text":"也在第一個時間全部投入整個的救災也設立了整個安心小鎮還有醫療站所以守護了我們整個東部的民眾的安全然後本席想藉這次質詢的機會代表花蓮的光復的鄉親向退伍會表達整個感謝謝謝委員希望退伍會未來我們還是持續能夠用心繼續關懷光復鄉和我們花東地區的鄉親會 會持續關懷"},{"start":68.419,"end":70.78,"text":"接下來就是退友會在花東地區設有一個台東農場目前農場有兩座分場本席今天就是有關台東農場營運的問題想要請教主委台東農場是不是也有提供住宿服務分別是在花蓮分場的壽豐的會館"},{"start":88.524,"end":91.066,"text":"還有台東農場位於台東的慈善會館還有東和農莊總共有三個地方根據整個了解花蓮分廠的遊客114年整個上半年的總人數只有200多人為什麼參觀的人數少的可憐為什麼受封會館整個住宿人數都是一直在下降"},{"start":110.663,"end":111.924,"text":"還有台東的慈善會館和東河農莊為什麼會停止對外營運為什麼三處的觀光住宿的營運會那麼差有沒有什麼改善的方案"},{"start":122.782,"end":150.827,"text":"跟委員報告台東農場那邊的池上會館還有東河農莊他分別在113年4月還有今年的1月委外經營了但是他目前是因為在整建在進行整建的工程要到明年的1月還有到117年1月才會復業所以剛剛委員所提到的他這個業績還有人數比較減少他因為整建期間他是"},{"start":151.607,"end":169.547,"text":"暂停营业的暂停营业官网官网也暂时没有揭露所有旅游的资讯那么等到复业之后会同步更新订房跟旅游相关的一些内容那么第二个跟委员报告就花莲寿丰会馆"},{"start":170.348,"end":198.099,"text":"因為113年地震所以日式的建築物那邊建築物有一些損壞所以暫停營業也是整修一年那麼今年又受到前面的颱風微波跟華家煞颱風的影響到9月我們累積的遊客是1798個但是我們叫過去也是有衰退的但是因為發展觀光條例限制自營"},{"start":199.099,"end":213.977,"text":"那麼由廠商也表達經營的意願為了能夠維持旅宿服務現在由內政部審議都市計劃變更為產業專用區通過之後辦理招商的事宜那麼詳細情形我再請我們事業處處長做補充"},{"start":216.372,"end":232.82,"text":"委員好 我是事業管理處處長楊長正我們台中農場有三個分廠過去是經營旅宿業是絕對沒有問題的但是因為發展觀光條例的限制現在是條例已經有五年執行了但是我們之前我們就已經委外經營了"},{"start":233.74,"end":255.385,"text":"那未來受風會館我們也會朝這個方向去我們希望藉著委外經營吸引民間的力量進來以後可以促進地方的觀光發展我舉個例子 譬如說我們的松原別館我們這次參加松原別館參加我們觀光署辦的旅遊景點它就獲得了花東地區跟外島地區的第四名"},{"start":256.165,"end":281.805,"text":"這個非常不簡單我親自去那邊看過以後我認為那個是一個歷史建築漂亮很漂亮的歷史建築應該可以恢復原貌就跟我們壽豐會館一樣可能我們自己經營可能是經營會有些限制因素但是引進民間的力量以後應該可以擴大發展它本來就的樣貌去吸引遊客的進駐這是我們的期望 謝謝委員"},{"start":284.011,"end":287.275,"text":"接下來我還有一個小的問題想要請教就是像台東農場這樣有沒有什麼重大機密需要保密的問題因為主委你知道嗎為什麼本席要這樣問因為本席在上網瀏覽台東農場的官方的網站上面有發現他的組織整個架構上面為什麼連廠長"},{"start":303.613,"end":317.4,"text":"還有副廠長的名字都不能公開都還要整個遮蔽呢就連我們退伍會的本會的我們的局處首長包括正副主委你們的名字都是光明正大的揭露在官網上面啊那為什麼台東農場會有不敢揭露名字的問題呢"},{"start":325.501,"end":333.834,"text":"謝謝委員指正這個我還不是很了解我想說是不是有什麼重大機密需要保密呢沒有沒有沒有我們下期再做了解"},{"start":335.376,"end":358.696,"text":"所以其實退伍會的農場其實剛才我們大家也講了嘛都是辛苦的農民流汗打拼出來的所以在農產品上面旅遊上面真的是要好好的經營阿本席也期待退伍會會針對台東農場這些提出更有效能還有真正能為花東地區帶來觀光效應的好地方這樣才不枉費納稅人的託付可以嗎是是 謝謝委員知道"},{"start":361.255,"end":364.478,"text":"接下來我想要針對退除役人員培訓與就業的問題想要請教主委退伍會長期以來都伴有退除役官兵職業的整個訓練的計畫然後111年到113年的職業訓練中有自辦和委外職訓人員參訓後就業率是88%然後委外訓練的就業率是75%"},{"start":385.479,"end":388.021,"text":"主委根據整個統計的資料我們來顯示我們來看為什麼退除役人員委外的就業訓練就業率就一直都不是很高成效也沒有辦法提升照理講一般委外的訓練的單位應該要更專業才對啊"},{"start":402.151,"end":407.677,"text":"所以還有我還有一個就是說根據退伍會有關的繼續追蹤受訓者整個的在職的情況辦理情形資料上面也有顯示112年本來就是原有260個人沒有就業但是在接受輔導之後還有140個人沒有就業"},{"start":421.593,"end":425.715,"text":"113年原有234個人沒有就業接受輔導之後仍然有149個人在待業中也就是說113年就業的人數竟然只有85個那我想請問主委為什麼接受輔導之後還是仍有那麼多將近過半的退役人員都沒有就業呢光是這些退役人員根本"},{"start":445.862,"end":447.944,"text":"是沒有辦法就業沒有這些就業的需要呢還是他們回歸職場整個的適應不良還是我們的輔導是效果是有限呢報告委員我請就業處處長跟您說明一下"},{"start":459.232,"end":465.313,"text":"我也好我是就業處處長跟您檢要報告第一點就有關於培訓的部分因為我們的委外訓練是招收這個有業無業的人而且他是以培養第二專長或者閒熟技能為主要的目的那他因為委外訓練我們是在北中南來開辦雖然是公開招標但是這些委外的這些訓練機構都是合法的但是他的資源或者一個規模大小都比不上我的執訓中心"},{"start":487.677,"end":492.781,"text":"所以再加上他因為他的訓練的期限都是比較中期或者是短期的一個訓練所以在培養技能上面事實上不如我中長期這樣子那麼深入因此在就業訓後就業上面確實是比較弱一點但是我們這幾年也都一直在向上攀升所以我們後續都會針對這個委外訓練的廠商我會加強他在採購的這個條件上面"},{"start":516.078,"end":518.2,"text":"我們會要求去這個提高他的標準第二個訓後就業你也要給我開拓職缺那當然更重要的就是我們的一個訓員你一定要有就業的意願如果說你沒有訓後不就業的話我們也會做一個記錄將來也會"},{"start":532.575,"end":536.317,"text":"這個減少他一個參訓這樣都可以有效的提升我的一個訓後就業率那第二點有關於這個就學我們每一年在領取我的就學補助以後我們會去做一個學後的一個就業追蹤那根據您剛所提到的因為我們調查在今年來講的話他其實未就業的人"},{"start":554.147,"end":567.619,"text":"他有一几个目的第一个他可能是因为需要照顾家庭第二个他已经在求职当中第三个他还在准备升学第四个他确实暂时没有这个就业的计划那针对于这些的个案我们其实都有都一百多个而已都散布在我的各个荣福处我们要求他们都会针对这些的个案去进行相关的一个个案的开案的"},{"start":578.669,"end":584.376,"text":"一個需求然後持續去追蹤關懷希望他能夠再重新的回到職場以上為什麼我會提到這個問題就是因為這個退出義軍人的就業的問題其實我是擔心因為這個是否會讓青年從軍的意願大打折扣會影響到國軍人力的招募"},{"start":599.753,"end":621.792,"text":"因為畢竟退除役軍人的就業率如果他整個後面低落的情況會聯想到想當兵的年輕人可能會擔心就是說萬一他們以後從軍之後然後是不是就沒有辦法後面就是退役後沒有辦法順利的回到職場的問題所以我本來就是想說請主委要好好的了解原因畢竟退伍會是退除役官兵服務和照顧的整個的專責機關謝謝委員的關心跟指導謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時56分）謝謝主席，請嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：主委好。首先，我先針對退輔會在業務報告裡提到，針對這次花蓮發生馬太鞍堰塞湖災害重創花蓮縣光復鄉，你們不但立即啟動整個榮民服務的關懷，花蓮榮服處的職員們，還有榮欣志工都在災害的時候號召夥伴們前往光復災區協助清理家園，退輔會所屬臺北榮總的玉里分院也在第一時間全部投入救災，設立了安心小站跟醫療站，守護了我們東部民眾的安全，本席想藉這次質詢的機會，代表花蓮光復的鄉親向退輔會表達感謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：希望退輔會未來還是能夠持續用心繼續關懷光復鄉和我們花東地區的鄉親。"],["嚴主任委員德發：會持續關懷。"],["林委員憶君：退輔會在花東地區設有一個臺東農場，目前農場有2座分場，有關臺東農場營運的問題，本席今天想要請教主委，臺東農場是不是也有提供住宿服務？分別是在花蓮分場的壽豐會館、臺東的池上會館及東河農莊，總共有3個地方。根據了解，花蓮分場114年上半年遊客的總人數只有兩百多人，為什麼參觀的人數少得可憐？為什麼壽豐會館住宿人數一直在下降？還有臺東的池上會館和東河農莊為什麼會停止對外營運？為什麼3處的觀光住宿的營運會那麼差？有沒有什麼改善的方案？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，臺東農場的池上會館還有東河農莊，分別在113年4月還有今年的1月委外經營了，但是目前因為在進行整建的工程，要到明年的1月及到117年1月才會復業，所以剛剛委員所提到的業績還有人數減少，因為整建期間它是暫停營業的，官網也暫時沒有揭露所有旅遊的資訊，等到復業之後會同步更新訂房跟旅遊相關的一些內容。","第二個，跟委員報告，花蓮壽豐會館因為113年地震，那邊日式的建築物有一些損壞，所以暫停營業也是整修一年，今年又受到前面的韋帕颱風跟樺加沙颱風的影響，到9月我們累積的遊客是1,798個，過去我們也有過衰退的狀況，但是因為發展觀光條例限制自營，有廠商也表達經營的意願，所以為了能夠維持旅宿的服務，現在由內政部審議都市計畫變更為產業專用區，通過之後辦理招商的事宜，詳細的情形我再請事業處處長做補充。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，我是事業管理處處長楊長政。我們臺東農場有3個分場，過去經營旅宿業是絕對沒有問題的，但是因為發展觀光條例的限制，當然現在是條例延後5年執行，但是我們之前就已經委外經營了。未來壽豐會館我們也會朝這個方向去做，我們希望藉著委外經營，吸引民間的力量進來以後，可以促進地方的觀光發展。我舉個例子，譬如說我們的松園別館這次參加觀光署辦的旅遊景點徵選，他就獲得了花東地區跟外島地區的第四名。這個非常不簡單，我親自去那邊看過以後，我認為那個是一個很漂亮的歷史建築，應該可以恢復原貌，就跟我們的壽豐會館一樣。若是我們自己經營，可能在經營上會有些限制因素，但是引進民間的力量以後，應該可以擴大發展他本來舊有的樣貌去吸引遊客的進駐，這是我們的期望，謝謝委員。"],["林委員憶君：好。接下來我還有一個小的問題想請教，像臺東農場這樣有沒有什麼重大機密需要保密的問題，主委，你知道嗎？為什麼本席要這樣問，因為本席在上網瀏覽臺東農場的官方網站時發現，他的整個組織架構上面，為什麼連場長還有副場長的名字都不能公開，都還要整個遮蔽呢？就連退輔會本會的局處首長，包括正、副主委，你們的名字都是光明正大的揭露在官網上面，為什麼臺東農場會有不敢揭露名字的問題呢？"],["楊處長長政：謝謝委員指正，這個我還不是很了解，應該是可以……"],["林委員憶君：我想說是不是有什麼重大機密需要保密呢？"],["楊處長長政：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["嚴主任委員德發：我們下去再做了解。"],["林委員憶君：退輔會的農場，其實剛才我們大家也講了嘛，都是辛苦的農民流汗打拚出來的，所以在農產品上面、旅遊上面，真的是要好好地經營。本席也期待退輔會能針對臺東農場這些，提出更有效能，還有真正能為花東地區帶來觀光效益的好地方，這樣才不枉費納稅人的託付，可以嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：是、是，謝謝委員指導。"],["林委員憶君：接下來我想要針對退除役人員培訓與就業的問題請教主委。退輔會長期以來都有辦理退除役官兵職業訓練的計畫，111年到113年的職業訓練計畫中有自辦和委外職訓，自辦計畫人員參訓後就業率是88%，然後委外訓練的就業率是75%。主委，根據整個統計資料所顯示來看，為什麼退除役人員參與委外的就業訓練後，其就業率一直都不是很高，成效也沒有辦法提升？照理講，一般委外的訓練單位應該要更專業才對啊！還有就是，根據退輔會有關的繼續追蹤受訓者整個在職情況的辦理情形資料顯示，112年原有260個人沒有就業，但是在接受輔導之後，還有140個人沒有就業；113年原有234個人沒有就業，接受輔導之後仍然有149個人在待業中，也就是說113年就業的人數竟然只有85個。我想請問主委，為什麼接受輔導之後，還是仍有那麼多將近過半的退役人員都沒有就業呢？是這些退役人員根本沒有辦法就業，沒有就業的需要呢？還是他們回歸職場後整個適應不良？還是我們的輔導效果有限呢？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我請就業處處長跟你說明一下。"],["池處長玉蘭：委員好，我是就業處處長。跟您簡要報告：第一點有關於培訓的部分，因為我們的委外訓練是招收有業及無業的人，而且他是以培養第二專長或者嫻熟技能為主要的目的，因為委外訓練是在北、中、南來開辦，雖然是公開招標，但是這些委外的訓練機構都是合法的，但是他的資源或者規模大小都比不上我的職訓中心。再加上因為他的訓練期限都是比較中期或是短期的訓練，所以在培養技能上面，事實上不如我們的中、長期訓練那麼深入，因此在訓後就業上面確實是比較弱一點。但是我們這幾年也都一直在向上攀升，所以我們後續都會針對委外訓練的廠商，我會加強他在採購的條件上面，會要求去提高他的標準；第二個，訓後就業也要開拓職缺。當然更重要的就是我們的受訓人員一定要有就業的意願，如果說你訓後不就業的話，我們也會做一個紀錄，將來也會減少他的參訓，這樣都可以有效的提升我們的訓後就業率。","第二點有關於就學的部分，每一年在領取我們的就學補助以後，我們會去做學後的就業追蹤。根據您剛剛所提到的，因為我們的調查，在今年來講的話，其實未就業的人有幾個目的：第一個，他可能是因為需要照顧家庭；第二個，他已經在求職當中；第三個，他還在準備升學；第四個，他確實暫時沒有就業的計畫。針對這些個案，我們其實都有，一百多個而已，都散布在各個榮服處，我們都會要求他們針對這些個案去進行相關的個案開案的需求，然後持續去追蹤關懷，希望他能夠再重新回到職場。以上。"],["林委員憶君：好。為什麼我會提到這個問題？其實我是擔心整個退除役軍人的就業問題是否會讓青年從軍的意願大打折扣，會影響到國軍人力的招募，因為畢竟退除役軍人就業率低落的情況，會讓想當兵的年輕人可能會擔心，萬一他們從軍退除役之後，是不是就沒有辦法順利回到職場的問題，所以我本來就是想請主委要好好的了解原因，畢竟退輔會是整個退除役官兵服務和照顧的專責機關。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員的關心跟指導。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請賴士葆委員發言，時間3分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-2","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","林楚茵","黃仁","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","邱志偉","賴惠員","林憶君","賴士葆","陳永康"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"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本席要請我們交通部陳部長 請陳部長"},{"start":20.08,"end":41.531,"text":"部長我這裡有一個工程希望部裡面能夠盡快來推動要邀請部長特別要給予關心這個是我們行政院核定過剛核定過的台南新營交流道國道的新營交流道北上出口現在的交流道一個改善工程"},{"start":43.392,"end":64.332,"text":"這個我不知道部長看得懂嗎現有的就是淡粉濃色的這個淡粉濃色的這個就是既有的閘道你看是不是很短淡粉濃色的這個你看得出來這個北上車輛如果從新營下來就覺得塞車塞爆了因為它這裡很短"},{"start":65.595,"end":89.167,"text":"然後長榮路跟接下來就接到復興路跟長榮路口長榮路是一個幹道這麼短的距離車輛從這個閘道下來到長榮路經常要左轉是你知道它已經在那個迴旋道可以容納的車輛已經很少了再下來幾乎馬上就要左轉的車輛佔了大概20幾%是"},{"start":91.789,"end":110.118,"text":"所以你等於一下交流道你就要趕快拼命地切到內車道因為你要左轉所以這個地方經常大打結也經常發生事故所以過去一直地方希望能夠改善先年交流道的這個閘道"},{"start":114.554,"end":137.788,"text":"那最近行政院總算好不容易核定了對 已經核定如果你現在把這樣的這個下來的迴旋道拉長直接跨過長榮路讓它接到復興路來是這個瓶頸就可以改善改善很多啦改善很多然後車流也一定會順暢因為這邊是往東啦往東的車流會很順勢的是你這樣看得出來"},{"start":140.85,"end":169.28,"text":"對 他直接跨過去南線這邊跨過去我告訴你以前在世界高速公路這個南北你看台南很多這種一一就一條路一條路完全沒有辦法容納就是說它容納車輛很少它那個在早到下來的這個路段都很少可以容納的車輛數經常從平面道路塞到高速公路上面"},{"start":170.22,"end":191.805,"text":"仁德交流道也一樣永康交流道也一樣以前都把南部動作抄底過去國道的設計南北就有很大的不同我覺得南北城鄉差距有一點歧視南部因為南部第一個車道就比較小車道比較少"},{"start":192.959,"end":197.586,"text":"都差不多單邊兩線道 對不對然後 閘道設計都是這種最簡易的從高架上面大概"},{"start":205.437,"end":222.327,"text":"一條路就馬上接到平面道路完全沒有一個迴旋讓車輛經常性的現在地方的發展會讓車輛從平面道路一直塞到高架橋高速公路的上面尤其新年現在這個都要改善"},{"start":224.108,"end":248.988,"text":"那行政院已經給我們協助了這個地方希望新林交通道的改善這個已經講了很多年了一直到最近幾年我們一直在積極的推動本市跟地方的那個內委員 委員也辦過會刊那也跟交通部多次的談過了行政院現在這樣的一個核定以後接下來就是我們高工局的事情了"},{"start":249.828,"end":277.865,"text":"公務局要續辦後面的規劃設計作業那是不是請局長回答一下是 跟委員報告行政院核定了這一個可行性所以我們立即已經啟動就是做相關的規劃設計那這邊還要閘道的部分有一點環差也要處理那我想我們會加速來辦相關的設計作業那中港電經費7億多嘛是不是這樣對 沒錯這個用我們國道基金可以來支付沒有問題"},{"start":278.857,"end":291.055,"text":"那你要看喔 你看它工程期 廖阿固跟我有報告 因為它包含整個設計 環差環差設計嘛 是所以希望你可以加速啦"},{"start":292.125,"end":310.847,"text":"對不對 你紙上作業的時間啊你開會審查的時間啊你給人壓縮 稍微加快一點那個通過的時間 審查通過的時間能夠加速我們就可以要不然照你現在既有規劃的期程你本來幾月七十八個月是什麼意思幾年你不知道"},{"start":312.088,"end":315.509,"text":"六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年 六年"},{"start":331.053,"end":346.486,"text":"所以這個交流道的工程請部裡面部長親自督促一下請局長全力協助這樣好不好好 我們全力加速再來就是談過很多次的台61線將軍休息站的問題這個局長第一個本席也曾經去會堪過那時候工種那時候工種也有"},{"start":358.581,"end":384.689,"text":"答應全力要來做啦我記得好像是陳彥博次長陳彥博次長也有去看過啦後來年2021年蘇貞昌行政院長他也到台南去他也有說到他要支持台六十一線在長崑這裡設一個休息站那設到現在已經三四天了喔狀況如何 來 我們請來 公總 公總回答一下好嗎"},{"start":386.083,"end":415.312,"text":"跟委員報告確實之前大概就是說徵詢的意願大概就是委員所提到的現在的一個狀況那天我大概也有跟委員報告因為我前些日子剛好到這個口福區有碰到這個超商的這個協力那我大概也在跟他提這件事情那我現在在積極push他們相關投資的一個這個意願那這個部分的話是不是委員在給我們一段時間我們再來跟相關的一個"},{"start":415.752,"end":432.782,"text":"第一個台61的使用量是很高的但是當時設計這條路它就完全都沒有設計都沒有考量到休息站的問題了因為你如果跑幾圈你連上廁所都沒有地方了你都要從台61下來去地方找"},{"start":434.73,"end":457.597,"text":"連你要休息 上廁所 喝個飲料都完全沒有規劃 當時啦當這條路 當然塞到那裡是警察啦後來我們就當然要找適當的地方可以來設立嘛那台南是一個南北狹長性那台六十一在台南剛好經過海濱的地方啦其實它那邊的環境很漂亮啦對於伴盟將軍切割下來"},{"start":462.082,"end":488.791,"text":"所以那個地方車行大概要四、五十分鐘所以你很捨得吧 要設一個休息站你在長崑溪港 你要去海邊去就好海邊去就好 你來六十一樓 要設一個休息站請大家要去海邊 到台南海邊來觀光旅遊 吃一些海膳吃一些到海邊的地方增強遊客的意願"},{"start":490.962,"end":519.597,"text":"所以我希望這個休息站已經講了那麼多年地方 地方都知道要把他們保護來看過行政議長跟他首席議長也表示支持我們都沒有到現在你現在告訴我招商的問題要不然你要就拔這個拔這個拔這個就算了你好的地點他們要覺得這個地點他們覺得不好就不愛來而且這個地點不錯啦"},{"start":520.609,"end":530.875,"text":"其實他們是可能是看這裡超大一罐那車流量你有吧跟我們報告車流數量你有吧其實車輛經過很多你是沒洗所以沒落而已來 你說"},{"start":532.335,"end":558.243,"text":"跟我們報告其實現在三個休息站的點包括這一個就是說那個新峰還有這一個口湖還有那個大安那邊其實基本上都比較抄底啦其實跟將軍都差不多但是我那天大概也有就是說因為跟我們報告將軍這個路端的話我經常這個在走啦那我那天我後續會來鼓勵這個台61已經設立的休息站生意如何"},{"start":563.065,"end":577.74,"text":"你現在有事嗎 應該都不錯啦目前生意大概都還不錯啦基本上因為超商社的時候某種程度也帶動你當時要有消息啦還有時間給你啦是不是再給我一個月的時間我再跟他們談一下"},{"start":580.563,"end":591.602,"text":"各位請看喔我會追著這個事情喔台六十一線將軍休息站請部長叫工種比較積極的好 自己來處理好 謝謝兩位謝謝部長 謝謝局長感謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時42分）好，感謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。我這裡有一個工程，希望部裡面能夠儘快來推動，也請部長特別要給予關心。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：這工程是行政院剛核定過的，臺南新營交流道、國道的新營交流道，現在北上出口交流道的一個改善工程。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：我不知道部長看得懂這張圖嗎？現有在圖上淡粉紅色的就是既有的匝道，是不是很短？淡粉紅色的這個，你看得出來吧！這北上車輛如果從新營下來，就絕對塞車塞爆，因為它這裡很短，接下來就接到復興路跟長榮路口，長榮路是一個幹道，這麼短的距離，車輛從這個匝道下來到長榮路經常要左轉，你知道吧？在那個迴旋道能容納的車輛已經很少了，再下來幾乎馬上就要左轉的車輛占了大概百分之二十幾，所以等於一下交流道就要趕快拚命地切到內車道，因為要左轉，所以這個地方經常大打結，也經常發生事故。地方過去一直希望能夠改善新營交流道的這個匝道，最近行政院總算好不容易核定了。"],["陳部長世凱：對，已經核定了。"],["林委員俊憲：如果現在把這樣下來的迴旋道拉長直接跨過長榮路，讓它接到復興路，這個塞車的瓶頸就可以改善很多，然後車流也一定會順暢，因為這邊是往東的車流，也會比較順暢，這樣你應該看得出來吧！"],["陳部長世凱：對，藍色線直接跨過去。"],["林委員俊憲：以前設計的高速公路，你看臺南很多這種一小截路、一條小短路，完全沒辦法容納，也就是能容納車輛很少，在匝道下來的這個路段都很少，可以容納的車輛數經常從平面道路塞到高速公路上面，仁德交流道也一樣、永康交流道也一樣，可能以前都把南部當作鄉下似的。過去國道的設計，你看南北就有很大的不同，我覺得這個南北城鄉差距，有一點歧視南部，因為南部第一個，車道就比較小、車道比較少，都差不多單邊兩線道，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：這我們現在會來加強。"],["林委員俊憲：而匝道設計都是這種最簡易的，從高架上面大概只有一小段路就馬上接到平面道路，完全沒有一個迴旋，現在地方的發展會讓車輛從平面道路一直塞到高架橋、高速公路的上面，尤其新營這部分都還沒改善，行政院已經幫我們核定預算，地方希望新營交流道改善，這個已經講了很多年了，一直到最近幾年，我們一直在積極的推動，本席跟地方的賴委員也辦過會勘，也跟交通部多次的談過了。行政院現在核定以後，接下來就是你們高公局的事情，高公局要續辦後面的規劃設計作業，是不是請局長回答一下？"],["陳局長文瑞：是，跟委員報告。行政院核定這案的可行性，所以我們已經立即啟動，就是做相關的規劃設計，這邊還要有一點，匝道環差的部分也要處理，我想我們會加速來辦相關的設計作業。"],["林委員俊憲：好。總工程經費七億多嘛，是不是這樣？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，沒錯。這個用我們國道基金可以來支付，沒有問題。"],["林委員俊憲：你要看喔！它的工程期要多久？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為包含整個設計……"],["林委員俊憲：環差？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，環差。"],["林委員俊憲：環差跟設計嘛？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以我希望你們可以加速啦，對不對？包括紙上作業時間、開會審查的時間，你們把它壓縮，速度加快一點。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。審查通過時間能夠加速，我們就可以加速來做。"],["林委員俊憲：要不然照你們現在既有規劃的期程，本來規劃78個月，是什麼意思？要幾年你知道嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：6年。"],["林委員俊憲：六年多，你不要隨便……"],["陳局長文瑞：因為前面還有一些前置作業。"],["林委員俊憲：一小段交流道的改善要規劃六年多，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：主要是前置作業比較長，我請他們儘量前置作業縮短。"],["林委員俊憲：前置作業……"],["陳部長世凱：我們儘量縮短。"],["林委員俊憲：前置作業就是你們可以把它縮短的地方嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我們儘量縮短前置作業。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這個交流道的工程，在部裡面要請部長親自督促一下，請局長全力協助，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們全力加速。"],["林委員俊憲：再來就是談過很多次的臺61線將軍休息站的問題，這個休息站本席也曾經去會勘過，那時候公總也有答應全力要來做，我記得好像是陳彥伯次長，他也有去看過。再來，連在2021年時任的蘇貞昌行政院長也到臺南去，他也有說他要支持臺61線在將軍這裡設一座休息站，設到現在已經三、四年了，狀況如何？來，請公總來回答一下，好嗎？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，確實之前徵詢的意願大概就是委員所提到現在的一個狀況，那天我大概也有跟委員報告，因為我前些日子剛好到口湖服務區，有碰到超商的協理，我大概也在跟他提這件事情，我現在在積極push他們相關投資的一個意願，針對這個部分，是不是委員再給我們一些時間？再來跟相關的部會……"],["林委員俊憲：第一個，臺61線的使用量其實很高，但是當時設計這條路完全都沒有考量到休息站的問題，等於你如果跑一整條道路，你連上廁所都沒有地方，都要從臺61線下來去地方找廁所，連要休息、上廁所、喝個飲料都完全沒有規劃，當時這條路的設計實在很差，後來我們就要找適當的地點可以來設立嘛！臺南是一個南北狹長型，臺61線在臺南剛好經過海邊的地方，其實那邊風景很美，從北門、將軍、七股下來，而那個地方車行大概要四、五十分鐘，所以應該很適合設一座休息站，而且你如果要去將軍漁港或去海邊玩，如果在臺61線下來設一個休息站，增加大家可以到臺南海邊來觀光旅遊，或是吃一些海產，增加遊客的意願，所以我希望這個休息站……已經講那麼多年，地方都知道交通部有來看過，以前行政院長蘇院長也表示要支持，為什麼搞到現在都沒有？結果現在你跟我說招商的問題，不然你們以後就綁在一起招商啊，對不對？好的地點他們要，但覺得這個地點不好就不要來。這個地點不錯啦！還是他們可能看這邊比較是鄉下的樣子，你們有車流量的數量吧？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，其實……"],["林委員俊憲：其實經過的車輛很多啊！因為沒有設置休息站，他們才沒有下來。來，請說。"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，其實現在3個休息站的點，包括新豐、口湖，還有大安，基本上都比較鄉下啦！其實跟將軍都差不多，但是我那天大概也有……跟委員報告，將軍這個路段的話，我經常在走啦！我後續會鼓勵業者遠光要放遠一點。"],["林委員俊憲：臺61線已經設立的休息站的生意怎麼樣？現在有設7-ELEVEN在那裡，應該都不錯啦，對不對？"],["林局長福山：目前生意大概都還不錯啦！基本上，因為超商設了之後，某種程度也帶動地方……"],["林委員俊憲：你什麼時候會有消息啦？還要再給你多少時間？"],["林局長福山：是不是再給我一個月的時間？我再跟他們談一下。"],["林委員俊憲：一個月的時間？"],["林局長福山：對，我再跟他們談一下。"],["林委員俊憲：一個月的時間啦！我會追著這個事情。"],["林局長福山：是。"],["林委員俊憲：針對臺61線將軍休息站，請部長要求公總積極一點，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們積極來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝兩位，也感謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員發言。","在宣布休息之前，我們先作以下宣告：接下來休息之後，等到黃健豪委員發言完畢，我們來處理臨時提案。今天只有一個提案是廖先翔委員的提案，我們在黃健豪委員發言完畢之後會做處理，請黨團助理給予告知。謝謝陳素月委員。","我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時52分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163887","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163887","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ff59c4b0e9a1036c41e1338d15ff711a656cd2b685a6ecb80c497b3694df335b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:29:46 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供期展延有包括英語的天數也包括那個施工廠商在那個送繩的過程之中我知道你展延 所以現在展延不是到明年1月嘛現在10月到明年1月就剩下90天嘛"},{"start":171.112,"end":188.561,"text":"那90天你在講什麼呢你328天沒有啦你們要自己要跟董事長講清楚啦就不是這麼回事啦什麼時候可以竣工什麼時候拿到使用執照才能夠開始使用但是我是覺得這個東西太離譜了其中我會請董事長稍微注意一下其中包括了"},{"start":189.221,"end":218.097,"text":"分項計畫施工圖材料設備審查總共九項計畫其中六項遭審退啊外人一聽我的天哪是不是說建管處桃園市政府在怎麼樣啊結果一查這全部都是你們透過建築師出審到你們資產運營部你們做一個複審你們自己都打槍自己的到底在做什麼我告訴你喔如果像我在這中壢的黃金地段"},{"start":219.478,"end":231.748,"text":"所有的市民都在看都在期待我希望董事長可以回去能夠把這個事情能夠追蹤進度好不好剛才我們同仁特別談到"},{"start":232.182,"end":257.166,"text":"他們在尤其材料設備的審查中有一些從大陸那邊過來的一些設備所以他們的確在審查過程中花了一些時間但是這些問題已經慢慢都克服了所以找到一家很差的廠商趕快把它完成是最重要的好吧你要創造那個歷史喔看看到底要多久好那個王董董事長請入座那個部長是"},{"start":261.314,"end":284.48,"text":"中方交友道謝謝你前一陣子也去看了解一下相關的進度因為我們過去兩年包括你還沒上任部長的時候我要謝謝王國才之前的部長大家一起一段一段來推動這樣一個工作那我聽到跟民眾很開心的就是我們現在目標還是不變114年年底能夠完工通車嘛我看到你的你有PO嘛好那"},{"start":288.061,"end":300.887,"text":"這個114年通車然後你說115年完工因為如果在建築的角度會很怪你沒有完工怎麼拿到石灶你怎麼竣工水電怎麼進來你怎麼可以使用可是在交通建設的話"},{"start":302.128,"end":319.817,"text":"交通建設的話我了解一下聽懂是主線道先通車嗎 是不是是 報告委員他其實114年底就完工了但是我們的計畫的完工日期是115年的6月所以我們等於是有提早提早完工我們就提早讓他通車"},{"start":321.089,"end":335.574,"text":"好現在我們現在了解的是主線道通車OK民眾覺得讓早一天通車地方交通方便但是我也建議你包括了我了解的115年靠右邊"},{"start":337.074,"end":359.147,"text":"當年通車之後你們還有後續收尾的工程包括周邊的5條比較小的路因為現在有很多因為要施工不管所搭的所建的所圍的後面才要陸續去拆第二個景觀植栽工程第三個全線排水溝等等的所謂的115年的後續工程但是我還是希望"},{"start":359.787,"end":383.379,"text":"局長 這個部分細部你要去了解你不要說好不容易我們主線道通了結果兩個月之後又開始圍了為什麼 抱歉我要做職災又圍三個月整 整 完全了解清楚在現在三個月如果有一些主線道我講主線道就第一個麻煩特別這個是局長的工作第一 入口號誌"},{"start":385.02,"end":405.428,"text":"這個高架橋下來因為是靠內側到現在為止這紅綠燈還有左轉對不對因為他沒辦法左轉外面車流根本你最內側是高速公路的交流道他靠不過來所以這個東西要跟這個桃園市政府的燈號怎麼樣去改善那第二是要上去"},{"start":406.827,"end":429.976,"text":"這個下來的第二個部分車道如何分流如何分流第二個是右邊那個耳朵要怎麼樣去分流現在這個道路因為你們還是圍的所以我覺得已經研究好了拜託這很重要第三個就是青浦往市區這個順向因為我們只坐北上他要透過一個迴轉迴轉的部分那我就請教這件好"},{"start":430.936,"end":447.368,"text":"青浦來的地區要迴轉靠內側高架橋上去要不要停等紅綠燈還是直接有迴轉道可以上去我們有迴轉道就是說會一併通車這樣子迴轉道的部分迴轉道有沒有紅綠燈因為我們要迴轉是要先停到"},{"start":452.939,"end":468.539,"text":"會堵到後面的車還是直接可以順著過去目前規劃就是相關如果說紅綠燈的部分我們會跟桃園市政府再做相關的一個最後的確認因為回轉的時候基本上是直接回轉不過就是說你再了解一下"},{"start":469.66,"end":492.23,"text":"所有的配合措施希望一次做好不要高速公路通了大家擠在市區道路那這個桃園市政府應該配合的 拜託盡快跟他們講他們也要一兩個月的時間來做處理那最後啊 這個部長這個問題其實比較多但是就做個結尾了因為我們特別看到你接受專訪的時候其實我們整個聽過一遍啊聽了覺得是滿有特色 滿有趣的"},{"start":497.612,"end":524.717,"text":"因為到最後怎麼解救國旅最後再談怎麼解救墾丁當然可能因為主持人問的方式但是這個部分包括你談的部分下次有空再跟你說第四項包括我們的局長陳局長也特別有說希望能夠多辦活動因為像高雄很多的演唱會確實吸引觀光所以你們要多辦活動那你們辦活動你是中華民國的交通部長"},{"start":525.777,"end":540.449,"text":"你的轄具是台灣包括外島本島都是吧還是只有南部的交通部長還是只有北部還是外島都是嗎所以都辦活動我跟你講這我們都很需要但桃園你辦了什麼活動還是署長你來講一下吧桃園辦了什麼活動"},{"start":546.462,"end":565.365,"text":"桃園在你多辦活動因為我們部長特別說在節目上講說我們靠南部大鵬灣那邊有19個大活動來帶動觀光不是大鵬灣是整個南部我知道南部的三個區塊加起來19個活動我也看到了那在今年度有總共幾個活動署長有知道嗎"},{"start":567.788,"end":596.978,"text":"是是委員委員指的是說桃園還是說全台灣全台灣全台灣的活動很多上次我們應該在委員的諮詢的資料裡面有提供我們現在目前觀光署自己能辦的活動裡面大概是以13個風景觀點區為主其他的各地方政府大概我們都是用採取補助跟合作好的那署長這個全國我們的全國的交通部長中華民國的在13個風景區為主的補助模式之下有哪些是13不管地帶"},{"start":599.793,"end":629.236,"text":"好啦 我做個結論這個部長這個很嚴重每一年這樣的搞你們說的大型活動就有我們觀光署主導的活動我告訴你 你自己去看都以國家風景區為主 對不對所以哪個縣市沒有國家風景區算你倒霉啊你就不算台灣的啦再見啦我觀光署一毛你也沒有就是我主辦的沒有東西在你那我覺得有點莫名其妙 你自己看嘛"},{"start":631.001,"end":648.496,"text":"今年現在在辦的活動 70大的活動你們表列 70大 70個耶應該是遍地開花嘛 大家都很開心結果我們鼓掌鼓了半天啊你看 從北關東北延誤到南邊 你說南部19個活動 我們都很恭喜啊結果 桃園"},{"start":650.439,"end":665.974,"text":"所有活動 十三不管啊部長 我給你最後一個建議不能這樣我們在省國家預算的時候你說補助我們地方辦觀光我們大家都以為有桃竹大概都非常少我們大家都以為一定"},{"start":666.955,"end":689.567,"text":"會有分到你們主導的一些活動結果到最後我看了今年沒有明年也沒有我希望明年今年過年的時候您也有爭取很多的那個燈會我知道其實我們觀光署也都有幫忙這個大型活動它不在這個歷年的燈會它明年就走了所以明年就是零我跟你講你們明年計畫已經出來了61個活動桃園是零今年也是零我覺得不應該"},{"start":690.467,"end":717.724,"text":"部長我要拜託你 署長我要拜託你像這樣的三不管地帶它也是我們要推動觀光的特色的城市我要拜託它這筆錢也許不在風景管理區它必須呈現在署裡面或者交通部我要拜託從明年開始能不能研究一下我們來跟市政府這邊來討論看怎麼樣大家一起來合辦好 這個部分是可以做的好 這要拜託啦因為你們補助的錢都很少你等他的計畫我上次爭取一個50萬"},{"start":719.225,"end":736.776,"text":"我是說真的真的拜託你從明年開始不要告訴我風景區沒有編那我不怪他他管那轄區不在這那這種山不管地帶幾個城市我要拜託部長跟署長你要用其他預算來關注好不好我們跟地方政府來討論好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：還有中華郵政王董事長。"],["主席：王董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長好及前部長好。第一件事就直接切入主題，也不要兜圈子了，針對中壢郵局，我們之前聽說淡江大橋過去不敢發包是因為覺得有很多的挑戰，這麼艱難的工程，但我不知道還有比淡江大橋現階段更艱難的工程，叫做中華郵局，蓋地下4層、地上9層，這一般的建商看了都在那邊笑。我先問王董事長，110年10月20號時，你是交通部部長，正好是在你任內開的工，本來上個禮拜我們要一起去剪綵，你是董事長，因為預定在今年10月6號就要完工了，差不多4年的時間，我覺得私人以這樣蓋2,700坪樓地板面積的，我問了很多的民間建商，因為是地下4層樓，他說會稍微久一點，但他說再怎麼慢，兩年半、三年也要完成。請教一下，你當交通部長時開的工，現在本來要完工典禮，目前沒法參加，到現在為止，應該進度要完成了，但目前進度只到41%，王董事長，你說一下吧！"],["王董事長國材：跟委員報告，中壢郵局的確在興建過程中有波及到鄰房，包括補償、補救的一些問題，然後在整個過程……明年1月就可以完工使用，跟委員做一個確認報告。"],["魯委員明哲：明年1月？"],["王董事長國材：對。"],["魯委員明哲：確定嗎？你們工期延328天，你們哪個承辦人員出來講講，好不好？既然明年1月就可以完工，為什麼要給它延將近一年？工期展延328天喔！為什麼會這樣展延？"],["吳處長昇翰：跟委員報告，工期展延有包括陰雨的天數，也包括施工廠商在送審的過程之中，我們……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道有展延，展延到明年1月，現在10月到明年1月就剩下90天，剩90天你在講什麼呢？延了328天，你們自己要跟董事長講清楚，就不是這麼回事啦！什麼時候可以竣工？什麼時候拿到使用執照才能夠開始使用？但是我覺得這個東西太離譜了，我會請董事長稍微注意一下，其中包括了分項計畫、施工圖、材料設備審查，總共9項計畫，其中6項遭審退，外人一聽，我的天啊！是不是桃園市政府建管處在怎麼樣啊？結果一查，這全部都是你們透過建築師初審，到你們資產營運處複審，你們自己都打槍自己，到底在做什麼？我告訴你，像中壢這樣的黃金地段，所有的市民都在看、都在期待，我希望董事長回去能夠追蹤這個事情的進度，好不好？"],["王董事長國材：是，剛才我們同仁特別談到，尤其在材料設備的審查中，有一些是從大陸那邊過來的設備，所以他們的確在審查過程中花了一些時間，但是這些問題都已經慢慢克服了。"],["魯委員明哲：找到一家很差的廠商嘛！"],["王董事長國材：趕快把它完成是最重要的。"],["魯委員明哲：好吧！你要創造歷史，看看到底要多久，王董事長請入座。部長，關於中豐交流道，謝謝你前一陣子去看了，了解一下相關的進度，因為過去兩年，包括你還沒上任部長的時候，我要謝謝王國材前部長，大家一起一段、一段來推動這樣的工作。我聽到讓民眾很開心的事，就是現在目標還是不變，114年底能夠完工通車，我看到你有po嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是，要通車。"],["魯委員明哲：114年通車，然後你說115年完工，如果在建築的角度會很怪，沒有完工，怎麼拿得到使照？要怎麼竣工？水電怎麼進來？怎麼可以使用？可是在交通建設的話，我了解一下，有聽懂了，是主線道先通車，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，其實114年底就完工了，但是計畫的完工日期是115年6月，所以等於是有提早，既然提早完工，我們就提早讓它通車。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我們現在了解的是主線道通車，民眾覺得早一天通車，讓地方交通方便，但是我也建議你，據我了解，通車之後，115年你們後續還有收尾的工程，包括周邊5條比較小的路……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["魯委員明哲：現在有很多因為要施工，不管所搭的、所建的、所圍的，後面才要陸續去拆；第二個是景觀植栽工程；第三個是全線排水溝。這等等所謂的115年後續工程，但我還是希望局長，這個部分的細部你要去了解，不要好不容易主線道通了，結果兩個月之後又開始圍了，為什麼？抱歉，因為要做植栽，又要圍3個月。這個完全要了解清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：但現在剩3個月，如果有一些主線道，我講主線道，這是局長的工作，第一個是路口號誌，這個高架橋下來，因為是靠內側，到現在為止，這紅綠燈還有左轉，對不對？因為沒辦法左轉，最內側是高速公路的交流道，外面車流根本會靠不過來，所以這個東西跟桃園市政府的燈號看要怎麼樣去改善。第二個是要下來的部分，車道要如何分流？第二個是右邊那個，要怎麼樣去分流？現在這個道路你們還是圍著，所以我覺得已經研究好了，拜託，這很重要。第三個是青埔往市區的這個順向，因為只做北上，要透過一個迴轉的部分，我就請教這一件，青埔地區來的要迴轉靠內側高架橋上去，要不要停等紅綠燈，還是直接有迴轉道可以上去？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們有迴轉道，就是會一併通車。"],["魯委員明哲：迴轉道有沒有紅綠燈？如果要迴轉，是要先停，會堵到後面的車，還是直接可以順著過去？目前的規劃如何？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，關於紅綠燈的部分，我們會跟桃園市政府再做最後的確認，迴轉的時候，基本上是直接迴轉，不過就是說……"],["魯委員明哲：好，你再了解一下，所有的配合措施，希望一次做好，不要高速公路通了，大家擠在市區道路；而桃園市政府應該配合的，拜託儘快跟他們講，他們也要一、兩個月的時間來做處理。最後，部長，這個問題其實比較多，但是就做個結尾，我們特別看到你接受專訪的時候，其實我們整個聽過一遍，聽了覺得是蠻有特色、蠻有趣的，到最後是談怎麼解救國旅、怎麼解救墾丁，當然可能是因為主持人問的方式，但是這個部分，包括你談的部分，下次有空再跟你說……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["魯委員明哲：第4項，包括陳署長也特別說到，希望能夠多辦活動，因為像高雄很多的演唱會確實會吸引觀光，所以你們要多辦活動。你是中華民國的交通部長，你的轄區是臺灣，包括外島、本島都是吧！還是只有南部的交通部長？"],["陳部長世凱：全臺灣。"],["魯委員明哲：還是只有北部、還是外島？都是嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：中華民國。"],["魯委員明哲：所以多辦活動，我跟你講，這我們都很需要，但在桃園你們辦了什麼活動？署長，你來講一下吧！桃園辦了什麼活動？多辦活動，因為部長特別在節目上講到，我們靠南部，大鵬灣那邊有19個大活動來帶動觀光……"],["陳部長世凱：不是大鵬灣，是整個南部，因為這次的風災災區……"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，南部的3個區塊加起來有19個活動，我也看到了。今年度總共有幾個活動？署長，你知道嗎？"],["陳署長玉秀：委員指的是桃園還是全臺灣？"],["魯委員明哲：全臺灣。"],["陳署長玉秀：全臺灣的活動有很多，上次我們應該在委員的質詢資料裡面有提供，目前觀光署自己能辦的活動裡面，大概是以13個風景管理區為主，其他的各地方政府，大概我們都是採取補助跟合作的方式。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，署長，部長是全國的交通部長，是中華民國的，在13個風景區為主的補助模式之下，有哪些是13不管地帶？好啦！我做個結論，部長，這個很嚴重，每一年都這樣子搞，你們說的大型活動，就由觀光署主導的活動，我告訴你，你自己去看，都以國家風景區為主，對不對？所以哪個縣市沒有國家風景區，算你倒楣，你就不算臺灣的啦，再見啦！我觀光署一毛你也沒有，就是我主辦的，沒有東西在你那。我覺得有點莫名其妙，你自己看嘛！今年現在辦的活動「70大活動」，你們表列70大，70個耶！應該是遍地開花，大家都很開心，結果我們鼓掌鼓了半天，你看從東北沿路到南邊，南部19個活動，我們都很恭喜啊！結果桃園所有活動13不管啊。欸！部長，我跟你最後一個建議，不能這樣，我們審國家預算的時候，你說補助我們地方辦觀光，大家都以為桃竹大概都非常少，大家都以為一定會有分到你們主導的一些活動，結果到最後我看了今年沒有、明年也沒有，我希望明年……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，今年過年的時候，您也有爭取很多燈會的預算，其實我們觀光署也都有幫忙。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道，這個大型活動不在歷年的燈會，明年就走了，所以明年就是零，我跟你講，你們明年計畫已經出來了，61個活動中，桃園是零，今年也是零，我覺得不應該。我要拜託部長及署長，像這樣的三不管地帶，它也是你們要推動觀光的特色城市，我要拜託這筆錢也許不在風景管理區，必須呈現在署裡面或者交通部，我要拜託從明年開始，能不能研究一下？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來跟市政府這邊討論，看怎麼樣大家一起來合辦，這個部分是可以做的，我們會努力。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這要拜託啦！"],["陳部長世凱：這是我們該作的。"],["魯委員明哲：因為你們補助的錢很少，你等他的計畫，我上次爭取一個50萬，我是真的真的拜託你們，從明年開始，不要告訴我風景區沒有編，我不怪他們，他們管的轄區不在這，這種三不管地帶的幾個城市，我要拜託部長跟署長，你們要用其他預算來關注，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會跟地方政府來討論，謝謝委員。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝魯明哲委員。","現在請林俊憲委員發言，林俊憲委員發言完畢之後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":70,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-2","speakers":["李昆澤","洪孟楷","林國成","徐富癸","蔡其昌","魯明哲","林俊憲","陳素月","何欣純","許智傑","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","黃國昌","邱若華","陳俊宇","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","李柏毅","蔡易餘","游顥","葉元之","陳冠廷","蘇清泉","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請交通部部長陳世凱就「十月\n各連續假期疏運執行及規劃情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148101_00001"}}},{"id":"163886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0087148c90fd6edcd2b1f00580874b155656cd2b685a6ecb811b2de8b317ab69f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:59:07 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這個68億有包含其他的譬如說我們的勤奸針的系統這個是立體嘛有水下 有水面無人艇然後還有無人機以外我們還有次世代的雷達還有紅外線還有環島的港艦那我了解那請教一下主委不過因為我們過去這個海巡署"},{"start":192.396,"end":217.248,"text":"從107年到108年還有112年到116年都有兩項無人機的採購但是這個計畫好像執行力都有一點落差我舉最近的112年到116年的計畫因為無人機的引擎技術超越廠商能力所及所以沒有辦法執行這個案子然後你們在去年9月修正這個計畫"},{"start":218.388,"end":230.683,"text":"所以這個計畫到目前為止都等於是沒有在執行跟委員報告海巡署是國防部以外中華民國政府最早使用無人機的我是說這個計畫國內的產業也是持續在發展預算通過給你們之後"},{"start":236.85,"end":251.574,"text":"有沒有信心目前產業的成熟度已經相當的成熟目前我們的規劃都可以來達成買到我們所需要的所以現有的無人機體有符合現在的需求嗎還是還要再等"},{"start":252.411,"end":267.165,"text":"現有的無人機我們需要再更升級那我說預算特別預算通過之後你們要買的是現有的已經有現貨就對了對已經有現貨就對了技術上成熟的商品化了你們在執行上面的確有出現問題因為客製化那第二"},{"start":273.911,"end":285.396,"text":"執行有問題的這個是因為我們客製化那現在沒有客製化就對了那廠商最後能力還不到那個是國內整體產業的問題那最後一點時間主委請我請一下顧部長最後一個問題你邊走我邊念這個烏克蘭總統俄羅斯基有點名台灣這個零件用於俄軍的無人機跟飛彈有這件事情嗎"},{"start":303.144,"end":330.967,"text":"我這邊沒有相關的訊息沒有相關的訊息那有去了解嗎因為這個是他們的總統哲倫斯基親自寫出來的就是說台灣有這個零件用在這個俄國的無人機跟飛彈那你們有去了解嗎因為這個報導出來之後你們有去了解嗎我想有關於這些民間他們在相關的這些零組件的供應鏈上面我想是可能是相當的"},{"start":333.683,"end":355.826,"text":"有一個不是那麼直接的一個管道那我們沒有辦法能夠排除但是我們也沒有辦法進一步來進行確認因為相關的這些都屬於民間的部分你們要去確認喔因為就算是民間的你們也要去確認喔就像說台塑去買的這個俄羅斯的油一樣啊那現在如果民間的這些零件用在俄國的無人機的話"},{"start":356.807,"end":376.509,"text":"我覺得這對台灣人的形象不好而且這個是指輪司機他指輪司機他直接點名因為民間部我想我們會跟經濟部一起來這個來調查清楚好不好要不要我們跟經濟部一起來來調查清楚那調查結果再跟等級來做說明再跟李坤城委員來做報告好不好好 謝謝李坤城委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":716,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時59分）謝謝主席，我們請海委會管主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["李委員坤城：主委慢慢來，沒關係。"],["管主任委員碧玲：林委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。這次特別預算在海委會的部分有兩百九十五億六千多萬，包含強化國土防衛能量279億，其中「籌補各式海空無人載具」編列了四十億九千多萬。當初你們編的預算，我相信我們都會支持，的確我們海、陸、空要一起來力挺、支援……"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我請問一下主委，這個特別預算只有無人機嗎？有包含無人艇嗎？預計籌補多少海空無人載具？需求的類型為何？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們在無人機的部分有分近程、中程、艦載，還有特勤所需，總共加起來是451架，其中近程……"],["李委員坤城：你是說這次特別預算要籌補的是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，總共是451架，我們分年編列的話，絕大部分都編在這次的特別預算，希望能夠一次補足，因為我們有非常急迫的需要。"],["李委員坤城：希望這次特別預算能夠補足451架就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：這是無人機的部分，所以這次沒有無人艇的部分？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，其中有艦載的部分，我們這次特別預算還不夠，未來要補後面的尾數，但是我們需要趕快能夠上路。另外，無人艇的部分，我們目前的規劃是25艘。"],["李委員坤城：也還在這次特別預算裡面？"],["管主任委員碧玲：也是在特別預算裡面。水下的部分，我們大概實驗性的會先引進，數量比較是個位數，我們先引進。"],["李委員坤城：所以水面25，然後水下的是實驗型的？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，但是我們也有水下聲納的部分。"],["李委員坤城：水下聲納是特別的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們水下聲納現在必須要加強部署，譬如說，有好幾次黑盒子是靠海巡的水下聲納，第一時間很快的先去側掃以後定位。"],["李委員坤城：因為我看主委有去參觀國防展，你說要投入68億推無人載具，可是我們看到預算大概是四十幾億，所以多出來的二十幾億……"],["管主任委員碧玲：基本上不到68億，因為這期間還有包括其他的情監偵在裡面，這68億有包含其他，譬如說我們的情監偵系統，這個是立體嘛！有水下、水面無人艇，及無人機以外，我們還有次世代雷達、紅外線、環島的港監等等。"],["李委員坤城：好，我了解。請教主委，過去海巡署從107年到108年，還有112年到116年，都有兩項無人機的採購，但是這個計畫執行率好像都有點落差，我舉最近112年到116年的這個計畫為例，因為無人機的引擎技術超越廠商能力所及，所以沒有辦法執行這個案子，然後你們在去年9月修正這個計畫，所以這個計畫到目前為止都等於是沒有在執行。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，海巡署是國防部以外，中華民國政府最早使用無人機的。"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說這個計畫。"],["管主任委員碧玲：國內的產業也是持續在發展。"],["李委員坤城：我在擔心接下來預算通過給你們之後，對於執行率有沒有信心？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前產業的成熟度已經相當成熟，我們的規劃都可以達成，買到我們所需要的。"],["李委員坤城：所以現有的無人機有符合現在的需求嗎？還是還要再等？"],["管主任委員碧玲：現有的無人機，我們需要再更升級。"],["李委員坤城：對，我說特別預算通過之後，你們要買的是現有的、已經有現貨就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對。"],["李委員坤城：已經有現貨就對了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，技術上成熟、商品化了。"],["李委員坤城：好。因為過去你們在執行上面的確有出現問題，我覺得……"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為是客製化，執行有問題是因為我們客製化。"],["李委員坤城：現在沒有客製化了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：廠商最後能力還不到，那個是國內整體產業的問題。"],["李委員坤城：好，主委請回。最後一點時間我請一下顧部長，最後一個問題，部長邊走，我邊唸，烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基有點名臺灣的零件用於俄軍的無人機跟飛彈，有這件事情嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我這邊沒有相關的訊息。"],["李委員坤城：沒有相關的訊息，那有去了解嗎？因為這是他們的總統澤倫斯基親自寫出來的，就是臺灣有零件用在俄國的無人機跟飛彈，你們有去了解嗎？這個報導出來之後你們有去了解嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有關於民間在相關零組件的供應鏈上面，我想可能是有一個不是那麼直接的管道，我們沒有辦法能夠排除，但是我們也沒有辦法進一步確認，因為相關的這些都屬於民間的部分。"],["李委員坤城：你要去確認喔！因為就算是民間的，你們也要去確認，就像台塑去買了俄羅斯的油一樣啊！現在如果民間這些零件用在俄國無人機的話，我覺得這對臺灣的形象不好，而且這個是澤倫斯基直接點名的。"],["顧部長立雄：關於民間的部分，我想我們會跟經濟部一起了解。"],["李委員坤城：這個調查清楚，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們跟經濟部一起清查。"],["李委員坤城：調查清楚，調查結果再跟本席說明。"],["主席：查清楚再向李坤城委員報告，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163885","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163885","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0d6eb9f13b46085ce2b1f00580874b155656cd2b685a6ecb8d60c73881cc9b1c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:52:27 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先請教經濟部長我想今天討論的是有關國家韌性我想一個有韌性的國家平時就讓各部會要發揮最佳的動能才不會在緊急的狀況的時候應變不來可是我們卻看到在野黨多次刪除政府對台電撥補的預算嚴重傷害國家韌性"},{"start":33.106,"end":60.727,"text":"我想台電大家都知道他不是一般的私人公司他是公用事業喔那平時承擔穩定電價強化電網韌性保障民生的責任遇上天災還要趕上第一線去搶修那這些公共服務並不會從天而降那都需要公共投資喔所以待會要請經濟部長一併說明就如果長期在野黨持續阻擋撥補台電的預算那經濟部你評估國家會受到哪些的衝擊喔"},{"start":61.448,"end":74.693,"text":"那另外我們看到政府對公共資源的這個挹注是舉世皆然德國預計明年起還要投入65億歐元相當於台幣2000"},{"start":77.554,"end":93.14,"text":"80億元來補貼輸電的費用來透過降低電力輸送成本那渴望讓家庭的平均電價會下降4%那這項補貼的計畫將由德國的四大輸電業者共同執行而且這筆錢也會用來投資電網基礎的建設那我們反觀台灣部長我們又有什麼樣的計畫來支持電網韌性和民生用電"},{"start":106.542,"end":124.501,"text":"就像剛剛委員有提到的我們本來是希望因為當初台電在無二戰爭開始的時候那時候成本大幅上升所以台電公司也吸收了這個差價累積起來有好幾千億我們希望透過政府可以撥補的狀況把他這個財政的狀況可以做改善"},{"start":127.904,"end":144.581,"text":"那如果這個財政沒改善的話我們也希望說電網韌性的部分有些預算可以來加強那這一次本來提的這個韌性條例裡面我們事實上有編了200億但是後來也被刪掉了那如果在這樣情況之下就像委員講的我們就只能就既有的這個預算金額"},{"start":147.423,"end":174.419,"text":"就是等於是很減緩的來做沒有辦法像快速的大規模來因應這些可能的災害比較大規模急速的來辦理變成這樣子所以我們也懇請大院如果可以讓台電的財務更健全的話那他在施作這個部分他的規模跟速度就可以加快跟加大好 謝謝部長那接下來本席想請教海委會就有關於海巡署有辦理這個"},{"start":175.78,"end":194.71,"text":"海域徵收海域徵收及巡防這個籌借的這個計畫有關於無人機應用的部分我們看到這個無人機無人艇的應用可說是進來的世界潮流那不僅廣泛運用在軍事佈局當然也運用在我們海巡署的海岸巡防"},{"start":195.751,"end":217.48,"text":"我想請教師說那無人機的應用有幾個問題喔譬如說飛行的續航力或者是環境的適應那最重要的是目前喔我們我國操作的這個人手不足的問題那請問在這筆特別預算裡面有沒有把握來補足遇到目前遇到的這些問題那怎麼樣去運用這樣的經費"},{"start":219.02,"end":237.114,"text":"各位委員報告我們第一批完成授訓考照已經在前兩天考完了所以人才的問題培訓我們都已經前瞻部署都已經超前部署考照前兩天就第一批考了那我相信應該成績會不錯"},{"start":239.936,"end":268.235,"text":"所以請委員放心我們有各種不同類型的無人機根據它的耐風性還有根據它的續航力還有它的距離都有不一樣的部署最重要的是希望說空中的量能一定要完成好 謝謝主委那我們再來請教勞動部有一個推動植物在設計服務計畫這個其實是為了減緩身心障礙者 工作上的障礙"},{"start":269.816,"end":276.363,"text":"然後勞動部的這個推動植物再設計服務計畫它可以補助相關的輔具那本席對於這項計畫的輔具費用的補助設計有點疑問"},{"start":279.554,"end":307.162,"text":"我舉例來說以申請補助這個點字觸摸顯示器為例高階一點的這個點字觸摸顯示器超過差不多10萬塊那網路上查到有超過12萬那我們就以12萬元來看點字觸摸顯示器在身心障礙者輔具費用補助基準表裡面最高補助是7萬元那如果不是低收跟中低收那輔助費用"},{"start":307.862,"end":327.133,"text":"最高補助是50%也就是3萬5千元那代表一般的民眾還要負擔8萬5千那依照勞動部喔這個推動植物再設計服務計畫第11點的規定補助額度應先扣除身心障礙者之社政補助最高額等於是你購買12萬還要扣掉這個社政補助最高7萬那勞動部只補助5萬那而且條文中我提到說再就其餘額據以評估"},{"start":336.499,"end":355.444,"text":"也就是說扣掉社增的最高補助勞動部不一定會補滿因為時間的關係所以要請教說那像這樣子的話有沒有所謂改善的空間因為以日本為例的話日本是補助九成九成是政府負擔一成才是自行負擔所以如果按照這樣的話他三吃十那我們有改善的空間嗎"},{"start":356.564,"end":375.954,"text":"謝謝委員,我們基本上應該這樣看,聲音障礙朋友就業是一個重點,我們認為在合理調整都是需要的,政府機關能夠協助的部分,一個重點就是輔具的提供,有關於相關輔具的一些規定或者資格條件,這部分我們會回過頭來,再來仔細看。"},{"start":377.295,"end":386.463,"text":"再檢討看看啦 你看日本就補助九成也是輔具啊 OK好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席好 謝謝我們林委員接下來請李昆城委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時52分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部龔部長、海委會管主委，還有勞動部陳次長。"],["主席：請龔部長、管主委、勞動部陳次長。"],["龔部長明鑫：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：先請教經濟部長，今天討論是攸關國家韌性，我想一個有韌性的國家，平時就要讓各部會發揮最佳的動能，才不會在緊急狀況的時候應變不來，可是我們卻看到在野黨多次刪除政府對台電撥補的預算，嚴重傷害國家韌性。我想台電大家都知道，它不是一般的私人公司，他是公用事業，平時承擔穩定電價、強化電網韌性、保障民生的責任，遇上天災還要趕上第一線去搶修，這些公共服務並不會從天而降，都需要公共投資，所以待會要請經濟部長一併說明，如果在野黨長期持續阻擋撥補台電的預算，經濟部評估國家會受到哪些衝擊？","另外，我們看到政府對公共資源的挹注是舉世皆然，德國預計明年起要投入65億歐元，相當於臺幣2,080億元來補貼輸電的費用，透過降低電力輸送成本，可望讓家庭平均電價下降4%，這項補貼計畫將由德國的四大輸電業者共同執行，而且這筆錢也會用來投資電網基礎建設。我們反觀臺灣，部長，我們要用什麼樣的計畫支持電網韌性和民生用電？以上。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，就像剛剛委員有提到的，我們本來是希望……因為當初台電在烏俄戰爭開始的時候，那時候成本大幅上升，所以台電公司也吸收了這個差價，累積起來有好幾千億，我們希望透過政府可以撥補的狀況，改善它財政的狀況，如果財政沒改善的話，我們也希望電網韌性的部分，有些預算可以來加強。這一次本來提的韌性條例裡面，我們事實上有編了200億，但是後來也被刪掉了。如果在這樣的情況之下，就像委員講的，我們只能就既有的預算金額很減緩地來做，沒有辦法快速、大規模因應這些可能的災害，若有比較大規模的災害，就沒辦法急速地來辦理了，就會變成這樣子，所以我們也懇請大院，如果可以讓台電的財務更健全的話，它在施作這個部分，它的規模跟速度就可以加快跟加大。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長。接下來，本席想請教海委會，有關於海巡署辦理海域偵蒐及巡防籌建的計畫，有關無人機應用的部分，我們看到無人機、無人艇的應用可說是近來的世界潮流，不僅廣泛運用在軍事布局，當然也運用在你們海巡署的海岸巡防。我想請教無人機應用的幾個問題，譬如飛行的續航力，或者是環境的適應，最重要的是目前我國操作人手不足的問題，請問在這筆特別預算裡面有沒有把握來補足目前遇到的這些問題？怎麼樣去運用這樣的經費？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們第一批完成受訓並考照的部分，已經在前兩天考完了，所以人才的問題，培訓我們都已經前瞻部署、都已經超前部署，第一批考照的前兩天就已經考了，我相信應該成績會不錯，所以請委員放心，我們有各種不同類型的無人機，根據它的耐風性、續航力，還有距離都有不一樣的部署，最重要的是希望空中的量能一定要完成。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：我再來請教勞動部，有一個推動職務再設計服務計畫，這個其實是為了減緩身心障礙者工作上的障礙，勞動部推動職務再設計服務計畫可以補助相關的輔具。本席對於這項計畫輔具費用的補助設計有點疑問，我舉例來說，以申請補助點字觸摸顯示器為例，高階一點的點字觸摸顯示器差不多超過10萬塊，網路上查到有超過12萬，我們就以12萬元來看，點字觸摸顯示器在身心障礙者輔具費用補助基準表裡面，最高補助是7萬元，如果不是低收跟中低收，補助費用最高補助是50%，也就是3萬5,000元，代表一般的民眾還要負擔8萬5,000元。依照勞動部推動職務再設計服務計畫第十一點的規定：「補助額度應先扣除身心障礙者之社政補助最高額。」等於是購買12萬，還要扣掉社政補助最高7萬，勞動部只補助5萬，而且條文中有提到：「再就其餘額據以評估。」也就是說，扣掉社政的最高補助，勞動部不一定會補滿。因為時間的關係，所以要請教，像這樣子的話有沒有改善的空間？因為以日本為例的話，日本是補助九成，九成是政府負擔，一成才是自行負擔，如果按照這樣的話，他山之石，我們有改善的空間嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：謝謝委員，我們基本上應該這樣看，身心障礙朋友就業是一個重點，我們認為合理調整都是需要的，政府機關能夠協助的部分有一個重點，就是輔具的提供，有關於相關輔具的一些規定或者資格條件，這部分我們會回過頭再來仔細看看是否符合身心障礙朋友的需要。"],["林委員宜瑾：再檢討看看啦！你看日本就補助九成，也是輔具，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163884","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163884","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff05f73ccca85034406b1cbd8f3401de56a522ce05ac16c040070aa9f53cbca5dff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:42:03 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謝謝主席 我請法務部長部長委員長"},{"start":12.298,"end":35.66,"text":"好 部長早剛才吳思耀委員特別詢問您有關於就是像這個所謂的政治狗仔那麼對於公眾人物或者是對於政治人物他的這個跟拍那您剛剛講說這個會違法違反刑法第315條嗎"},{"start":39.27,"end":60.904,"text":"這個要看個案 但是因為如果說這個他的行為有觸及到違反哪一條 新法315-1你要不要念一下315-1的條文是什麼當然315-1他最主要是還是在一定要界定在跟拍他如果說有非公開的這些的私人的活動"},{"start":62.245,"end":76.181,"text":"會公開用公職設備去確定確認確認因為那個部長故意斷章取義來315-1條有下列行為之一者處三年以下有期徒刑拘役或三十萬以下"},{"start":77.022,"end":78.923,"text":"所以他這個法律的意旨非常清楚的就是無故"},{"start":105.299,"end":132.535,"text":"就是你今天呢只是沒有任何的原因然後去故意來拍攝他或竊聽他而且是非公開那我要講的說其實我們在這一陣子非常明顯的來自於民進黨中央廚房的黨檢媒這次很多的所謂的爆料也是來自於部長口中的淨檢"},{"start":135.036,"end":150.704,"text":"那麼這裡面非常明顯的事實上呢是要利用打擊這個所謂的這個一般大家講所謂的政治狗仔但是我們也可以看到現在很多所謂披露的披露的相關的訊息"},{"start":152.625,"end":171.292,"text":"這個完全跟公共利益無關嗎完全跟利益無關嗎第一個我當然講到跟我自己爆料有關的就是潘孟安先生因為當時我質疑他的是他住的地點是光電業者的董事長的房子"},{"start":171.852,"end":197.003,"text":"而這個光電業者跟他在當時他擔任屏東縣長任內他核准的光電業者就是他核准的光電業者所以這稱之為無故嗎難道即便他當時當時他沒有行政的責任但是他是賴清德總統最重要的競選左右手"},{"start":197.623,"end":213.91,"text":"所以這是無故嗎 好 再來後來呢 有一些披露的 譬如說也就是監察院副院長李俊逸喔 對不起 秘書長李俊逸他利用 就是濫用公務車 濫用公務車那後來他因此而請辭下台沒有錯 這也是政治狗仔所提供的"},{"start":221.974,"end":229.238,"text":"但是請問一下 它跟公共利益無關嗎如果無關的話 請問李靜怡為何還要請辭已失負責 而且後來監察院他們也組成了相關的調查小組那我要舉的這些例子其實很多在過去 很多所謂的 你認為是政治狗仔所以政治狗仔真的是這樣的罪無可赦嗎"},{"start":252.54,"end":278.507,"text":"我有講過 若我個人 我自己身為公眾人物我相信沒有一個人希望被公拍開沒有一個人希望被跟拍對不對 一定是這樣子的但是 有的時候我們看到不管是媒體也好 狗仔也好利用了這樣的手段作為另外一種監督公眾人物 特別是"},{"start":279.247,"end":292.693,"text":"特別是行政首長的言行而他確實涉及公共利益所以今天如果我們要一窩蜂想要用法律上完全的杜絕 完全的打壓完全的禁止"},{"start":293.72,"end":313.873,"text":"其實某一個程度 事實上就是閒置了閒置 要烏住民眾的眼睛所以我要特別講到這樣的一個狀況我覺得現在可以看得出來民進黨顯然用腥風血雨的方式來做政治爭訪跟政治鬥爭接下來 部長我想請教你一個其實最近很多人在關心跟討論的議題"},{"start":324.18,"end":346.551,"text":"就是呢對於這個遺產部分的廢除兄弟姐妹的特留份那最近這個議題呢被討論的很多那麼而且呢在網路上已經有超過6700人來連署復議那我看到法務部也有一些回應"},{"start":348.01,"end":370.801,"text":"好像法務部現在也在做相關的研究這個大概必須要去修正民法因為很多人都認為說第一個就是現在的家庭的型態跟過去的家庭型態真的比較不一樣了我看到我們黃市長一直在點頭"},{"start":372.182,"end":388.229,"text":"就是過去的可能就是大家庭兄弟姊妹大家互相扶持互相照顧但是現在的社會其實有些兄弟姊妹不一定感情很好可能感情不好有的還反目成仇那所以呢就是現在討論就是說"},{"start":390.53,"end":413.957,"text":"如果尤其沒有子女者他的遺產一定要給兄弟姊妹特留份第一個違反了自己個人的意志另外一個就是跟現在的家庭形態跟社會的結構也不符合所以我想請問一下因為我剛才特別看你們的修法"},{"start":415.517,"end":434.387,"text":"你們就是今年的立法計畫可是好像並沒有把這個部分納入我不曉得所以可不可以請部長回應一下有關於現在大家這高度熱議的就是廢除兄弟姐妹特留份你們現在的態度是什麼 你們的進度是什麼"},{"start":435.168,"end":449.547,"text":"好 謝謝四位委員的確這個是在公共政策及公共網路參與平台這是由民眾來提出來的那這個當然是有遺囑自由說北京人他想要給誰多少"},{"start":450.188,"end":477.305,"text":"是不是有特留份那是特留份現在是三分之一是不是要四分之五分之一或者全部都不給那這個都是可以討論的那現在我們這個議題我們已經納入我們本部有一個委託研究案一個研究案來當做一個裡面的一個研究的一個範圍那我想這個還是要管他意見因為意見很多 分層那我想我們去追求一個"},{"start":478.826,"end":484.767,"text":"我們再來做一個把這些研究案的結論再來做一個修法的一個參考過去曾經提起而且也過去曾經要提出修法只是後來跨界不連續105年那時候對 也就終止了可見這個議題已經是在很多年前就已經被提起所以既然現在這麼多人在討論高度的熱議是不是可以就是說你們可以列入今年的修法的一個方向"},{"start":507.131,"end":532.54,"text":"或者是明年上半年的一個修法方向因為這也是我們是把納入一個研究案就是因應高齡化社會檢討修正民法繼承篇的一個研究案我們把它當作一個很重要的一個議題我知道啦 我知道你們現在當作一個很重要的一個修法我們當然是盡快因為其實民眾也非常關心這件事情那我們就等學者的專家來做一個研究因為我想這個還要廣大意見"},{"start":533.536,"end":561.156,"text":"是 但是我希望這個時間可不可以因為這個不是一個完全新的議題我剛剛講這部分的研究案的時間我是不是請市長來可以可以是 謝謝委員垂詢我們在今年四月份的時候就已經委託研究了那委託研究的成果報告是在今年的年底12月底前會提出那我們在最近這幾個月底都在收集外國立法例那我們是希望說在明年年初我們就啟動修法的工程"},{"start":561.796,"end":589.593,"text":"明年年初就會啟動了 但是這個這個議案呢 因為意見非常的分歧喔有人認為兄弟姊妹是反目成仇的但是有人認為兄弟姊妹是感情深厚的所以這個問題影響很大這為什麼就是說要有那個他要有遺產自由就是如果我真的覺得我跟哪個兄弟姊妹感情很好 而且甚至呢他都有照顧我的家裡 照顧我的身體什麼的等等之類的 那"},{"start":590.293,"end":609.728,"text":"那我就是在遺產裡面直接在遺珠裡面我全部都給他都可以啊但現在問題是我根本就跟也許跟兄弟姊妹感情很冷漠我可能更跟某一個朋友或某一個教會某一個協會某一個公益團體我覺得我跟他感情更深厚"},{"start":610.936,"end":632.807,"text":"那反而我對不起我就是一定要有個特留分所以我知道這個因為他實施時間非常非常長所以我至少很高興聽到你們願意在明年初來啟動修法至少讓大家知道就是說你們要有這個修法的進度要修不修要怎麼修就像剛才部長講的"},{"start":634.289,"end":643.545,"text":"是全部都不留呢還是這個特留份的這個比例把它整個的降低我希望在明年初可以有更具體的一個進度好不好"},{"start":644.6,"end":646.641,"text":"另外部長 我們一直在講打詐打詐因為時間關係 今年來單月的被詐騙金額仍然居高不下根本沒有改善的狀況但是我要特別講到"},{"start":666.889,"end":670.091,"text":"我們一直在講就是說最近常常在討論就是什麼樣的案件應該被羈押什麼樣的案件應該被交保什麼樣的案件它的交保金額是多少我們雖然不是檢察官我們雖然不是法官但是我們總是會做一些比較以及社會觀感"},{"start":686.718,"end":703.688,"text":"那我要講的就是呢那最近呢發生一個事情啊就是呢這個集團他也是前三立集團的一個媒體那他呢現在他被迫獲的是他"},{"start":704.568,"end":720.073,"text":"接受詐騙集團成立一個台灣網路行銷公司而且假冒揮達執行長黃仁勳成立了一個代操外匯的粉專這個就是當時我們要求一定要杜絕一定要杜絕而且深惡痛絕的"},{"start":721.693,"end":724.136,"text":"那當然這個事情呢後來意外爆發出案外案就是他除了幫這個詐騙集團來做這個一個假的黃仁勳的代鈔外匯粉專之外呢他呢還其實呢是往軍投"},{"start":740.416,"end":761.172,"text":"旗下有7000多個帳號在上一次的立委選舉裡面幫助現在陶琴董事長的趙振宇來抹黑他的對手邱若驊所以這是兩個案子那我要講的是當然每次政治的案子你們"},{"start":762.475,"end":790.84,"text":"部長大概回答千篇一律啦但是我現在要跟你討論的是詐騙因為他被逮捕被破獲是因為他是詐騙集團詐騙金額數千萬元交保交保金額20萬元部長我要講就是說像這樣一個案例這是最近發生的9月份發生案例交保金額20萬"},{"start":793.086,"end":820.061,"text":"你如何讓我們幸福今天我們司法單位真的有打詐的決心還是因為看到他竟然是幫著趙正宇在抹黑邱若驊因為這樣子而心存了一些忌憚所以給他交保金額才20萬當然其他的這些詐騙你看我列出很多都是跟詐騙相關的"},{"start":823.564,"end":836.319,"text":"交保金額15萬 20萬部長這樣子的一個狀況 你覺得社會大眾會認為我們司法單位真的有心要打仗嗎"},{"start":838.039,"end":857.204,"text":"我想每個案件的案情不一樣那剛才委員提到這個什麼五口青山這個已經收押 已經裁壓了那我想因為還有證據上的問題證據上的問題當然是我們檢察官一個偵查計畫他不一定一開始就有辦法因為證據可能"},{"start":858.664,"end":886.048,"text":"你們每次都說很怕賺客串供可是你20萬先讓他交保啦每個案件那個不一樣那個串供的話當然一定我們又發現的確有串供的事實部長我在這邊特別指出所以當然跟委員會有關係那個詐欺的那部分我在檢察長會議我另外各種場合我們希望就是說對這些詐團要盡量要去案件要盡量去我是案件普遍性的要申請羈押要申請羈押"},{"start":887.389,"end":915.151,"text":"尤其是集團性的這部分我們當然是希望就是說要求檢察官這部分要盡量用羈押因為這不能再讓他在社會去流竄再騙更多的人所以說這個羈押的確是讓這些詐團能夠氣焰能夠給他一個重大的壓制的一個非常好的因為這樣才能辦出整個往向上溯源才有辦法去追求公辦"},{"start":916.852,"end":945.384,"text":"部長因為時間到了這個會期我們仍然會繼續的關注有關於打炸的問題打炸當然好多個環節只是我今天講出這個案例這個案例我一看我又覺得說這個是不是太扯了跟我們的社會觀感跟期待實在太遙遠個案我沒辦法去做一個處理但是我通案我會要求要求再整個一個加強我這邊列給你好幾個案子不是個案好幾個案子都是跟打炸相關但是呢"},{"start":946.685,"end":949.848,"text":"這個有的交保金額實在是少的可憐好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":894,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時42分）謝謝主席。請法務部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長早。剛才吳思瑤委員特別詢問您有關所謂政治狗仔，對公眾人物或對政治人物的跟拍，您剛剛講說這個違法，是違反刑法第三百十五條嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看個案，但如果他的行為有觸及到……"],["王委員鴻薇：違反哪一條？"],["鄭部長銘謙：刑法第三百十五條之一。"],["王委員鴻薇：第三百十五條之一？你要不要念一下第三百十五條之一的條文是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：第三百十五條之一最主要還是界定如果跟拍非公開的私人活動，非公開、用工具或設備去竊聽……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，你故意斷章取義！第三百十五條之一規定「有下列行為之一者，處三年以下有期徒刑、拘役或三十萬以下罰金：一、無故利用工具或設備窺視、竊聽他人非公開之活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位者。二、無故以錄音、照相、錄影或電磁紀錄竊錄他人非公開之活動、言論、談話或身體隱私部位者。」所以法律意旨非常清楚，就是「無故」！就是你今天沒有任何原因，故意來拍攝他或竊聽他，而且是非公開的。我要講的是，其實這一陣子非常明顯的，來自於民進黨中央廚房的黨檢媒，這次有很多所謂的爆料，也是來自於部長口中的鏡檢。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有……"],["王委員鴻薇：事實上，這裡面非常明顯，就是要打擊一般大家所講的政治狗仔。但是我們也可以看到，現在所披露的很多相關訊息完全跟公共利益無關嗎？完全跟利益無關嗎？第一個，我當然要講跟我自己爆料有關的，就是潘孟安先生。當時我質疑他的是，他住的地點是光電業者董事長的房子，而該光電業者就是他在屏東縣長任內核准的光電業者！就是他核准的光電業者，所以這稱之為無故嗎？即便他當時沒有行政責任，但他是賴清德總統最重要的競選左右手，所以這是無故嗎？","再來，後來有一些披露的，譬如監察院秘書長李俊俋濫用公務車，後來他也因此請辭下臺。沒有錯，這也是政治狗仔所提供的，但是請問一下，他跟公共利益無關嗎？如果無關的話，請問李俊俋為何還要請辭以示負責？而且後來監察院也組成相關的調查小組。","我要舉的例子其實很多，過去很多所謂的……你認為是政治狗仔，但政治狗仔真的罪無可赦嗎？我有講過，我個人、我自己身為公眾人物，我相信沒有一個人希望被跟拍，對不對？一定是這樣子的。但有時候我們看到不管是媒體也好、狗仔也好，利用這樣的手段來監督公眾人物，特別是行政首長的言行，因為它確實涉及公共利益！如果今天我們一窩蜂，想用法律來完全杜絕、完全打壓、完全禁止，其實某一個程度就是箝制、摀住民眾的眼睛，這是我要特別講到的狀況。現在可以看得出，民進黨顯然用腥風血雨的方式來做政治偵防跟政治鬥爭！","接下來我想請教部長一個問題。其實最近很多人在關心跟討論的議題，就是在遺產方面廢除兄弟姐妹的特留分。最近這個議題被討論的很多，網路上已經有超過6,700人連署、附議，我也看到法務部有一些回應。好像法務部現在也在做相關研究，當然，這必須要修正民法。很多人認為現在的家庭型態跟過去的家庭型態真的比較不一樣，我看到黃次長一直在點頭。過去可能是大家庭，兄弟姐妹多，大家互相扶持、互相照顧。但現在的社會有些兄弟姐妹不一定感情很好，有的可能感情不好、有的還反目成仇！所以現在就是在討論，尤其沒有子女者，他的遺產一定要給兄弟姐妹特留分。但第一個，違反了自己個人的意志；另外一個就是，跟現在的家庭型態、社會結構不符合。我想請問一下，我剛才特別看了你們的報告、你們今年的立法計畫，可是好像並沒有把這部分納入。可不可以請部長回應一下有關於現在大家高度熱議的，廢除兄弟姐妹特留分一事，你們現在的態度是什麼？你們的進度是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。的確，這是在公共政策及網路參與平臺上由民眾所提出的，當然，這有遺囑自由，他想給誰、有多少，至於是不是有特留分？現在特留分是三分之一，是不是改成四分之一、五分之一？或者全部都不給？這個都是可以討論的。現在這個議題我們已經納入本部的委託研究案，當作裡面的一個研究範圍。我想這件事還是要廣納意見，因為意見很多，我們會把這些研究案的結論作為修法參考……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去曾經提起，而且過去也曾經要修法，但後來因為跨屆不連續……"],["鄭部長銘謙：105年那時候。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，所以就終止了，可見這個議題在很多年前就已經被提起。既然現在有這麼多人在討論，且高度熱議，是不是你們可以列為今年修法的一個方向？或者是明年上半年的修法方向？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是納入研究案，即為了因應高齡化社會檢討，修正民法繼承編的研究案，我們把它當作一個很重要的議題。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，我知道你們現在是當作重要議題，但還是要修法啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們當然會儘快，畢竟民眾也非常關心這件事情，我們就等學者專家來做研究，畢竟還需要廣納意見。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，但是我希望這個時間可不可以……因為這個不是一個完全新的議題。我剛才講，過去……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分研究案的時間，我是不是請司長來回答？"],["王委員鴻薇：可以。"],["劉司長英秀：謝謝委員垂詢。我們在今年4月份的時候就已經委託研究了，委託研究的成果報告是在今年的年底12月底前會提出。我們在最近這幾個月都在蒐集外國立法例，我們是希望在明年年初就啟動修法的工程。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。"],["劉司長英秀：明年年初就會啟動了。但是這個議案因為意見非常地分歧，有人認為兄弟姐妹是反目成仇的，但是有人認為兄弟姐妹是感情深厚的，所以這個問題影響很大。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有！這就是為什麼他要有遺產自由。如果我真的覺得我跟哪個兄弟姐妹感情很好，而且甚至他都有照顧我的家裡、照顧我的身體等等之類的，那我就是在遺產裡面、直接在遺囑裡面，我全部都給他都可以啊！"],["劉司長英秀：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：但現在問題是，我也許跟兄弟姐妹感情很冷漠，我可能跟某一個朋友或某一個教會、某一個協會或某一個公益團體感情更深厚，那反而……對不起！我就是一定要有個特留分。我知道這個實施時間已經非常非常長，我很高興聽到你們願意在明年初來啟動修法，至少讓大家知道你們要有修法的進度。要修、不修、要怎麼修，就像剛才部長講的，是全部都不留呢？還是特留分的比例把它整個降低？我希望在明年初可以有一個更具體的進度，好不好？","另外，部長，我們一再講打詐、打詐，因為時間關係，今年以來我們單月被詐騙金額仍然是居高不下，根本沒有改善的狀況。但是我要特別講到，也是最近常常在討論的，就是什麼樣的案件應該被羈押、什麼樣的案件應該被交保、什麼樣的案件的交保金額是多少。我們雖然不是檢察官，我們雖然不是法官，但是我們總是會做一些比較以及社會觀感。","最近發生一個事情，也就是前三立集團的一個媒體被破獲接受詐騙集團成立一個臺灣網路行銷公司，而且假冒輝達執行長黃仁勳，成立了一個代操外匯的粉專。這個就是當時我們要求一定要杜絕、一定要杜絕，而且深惡痛絕的。當然這個事情後來意外爆發出案外案，就是他除了幫詐騙集團做一個假的黃仁勳的代操外匯粉專之外，他其實還是網軍頭，旗下有七千多個帳號。在上一次的立委選舉裡面，幫助現在桃勤董事長趙正宇，來抹黑他的對手邱若華，所以這是兩個案子。","當然每次政治的案子，部長大概回答都千篇一律啦！但是我現在要跟你討論的是詐騙。他被逮捕、被破獲，是因為它是詐騙集團，詐騙金額數千萬元，交保金額20萬元。部長，像這樣的一個案例，這是最近9月份發生的，交保金額20萬元，你這樣如何讓我們信服今天我們司法單位真的有打詐的決心？還是因為看到他竟然是幫著趙正宇在抹黑邱若華，因為這樣子而心存了一些忌憚，所以給他交保金額才20萬元？你看我列出很多，都是跟詐騙相關的案件，交保金額15萬元、20萬元。部長，這樣子的狀況，你覺得社會大眾會認為我們司法單位真的有心要打詐嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想每個案件的案情不一樣。剛才委員簡報上有提到的五口輕生案，這個已經裁押了。我想因為還有證據上的問題，當然我們檢察官的偵查計畫不一定一開始就有辦法這樣，因為證據可能……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們每次都說很怕串供，可是你20萬先讓他交保啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個案件不一樣。串供的話，當然一定我們有發現的確有串供的事實，所以我們才要……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，我在這邊特別指出……"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，所以有關委員剛剛關心的詐欺那個部分，我在檢察長會議和各個場合都有提到，我們希望對這些詐團儘量去……案件普遍性地要聲請羈押，那這當然……"],["王委員鴻薇：尤其是集團性的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我們當然是希望要求檢察官這部分要儘量用羈押，因為不能再讓他在社會流竄，再去騙更多的人。所以說羈押的確是讓這些詐團的氣燄能受到重大壓制的一個非常好的做法，因為這樣才能整個向上溯源，才有辦法去追求共犯，這才是一個非常好的……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，因為時間到了，這個會期我們仍然會繼續地關注有關於打詐的問題。打詐當然有好多的環節……"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝！我們一起來努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，只是我今天講出這個案例，這個案例我一看，我又覺得這個是不是太扯了？跟我們的社會觀感跟期待實在相距太遙遠了，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案我沒辦法去做一個處理，但是通案我會要求再整個加強……"],["王委員鴻薇：我這邊列給你，有好幾個案子哦！不是個案哦！好幾個案子哦！都是跟打詐相關，但是有的交保金額實在是少得可憐，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員。接下來是羅智強委員發言，在羅委員詢答完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。","接著請羅委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","陳培瑜","吳宗憲","王義川","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅智強","傅崐萁","賴士葆","林楚茵","莊瑞雄","賴惠員","林倩綺","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00002"],"meet_name"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主委AI的系統你熟不熟"},{"start":289.437,"end":316.218,"text":"除了打仗以外在護理上的一個AI系統的一個應用他是一個智慧系統對是一個智慧系統我覺得這個會減少你的醫護的一個人力這個你其實是要好好的善用你最優秀的一個那個醫事的人員都在這個地方我希望就是是不是主委那個就是你稍微給他了解一下你可以表現得更好好不好以上謝謝委員長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時50分）謝謝主席。有請嚴主委、北榮李副院長、中榮副院長、高雄榮總陳院長，還有屏東榮民總醫院。"],["主席：請主委還有各榮院院長，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：賴委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，今天要跟你探討的是，所有北榮的系統中AI系統成為醫療基本的配備，這非常非常了不起。我們看到北榮有7家分院，中榮有3家分院，高雄榮總其實1家分院就是我們臺南分院，整體來講，北榮在今年5月的一個新聞稿特別強調，AI成為護理輔助的系統，語音輸入跟即時翻譯研發的成果得到很多人的肯定。事實上，北榮本來就是天之驕子，它就是掌握了更多的資訊，所以如果我們用北榮的護病比來看，在113年是7.9、114年7.6、114年8月份是7.3，當然在這個過程裡頭還有受疫情的影響造成醫護人員的流動。","今天要跟主委探討，不管是在北榮、中榮還是高雄榮總、屏東榮總，其實你們各自有自己AI系統的研發，為什麼不可以把它併入變成一個北榮整體的系統呢？這我倒想聽聽看，你們各自都發展得非常好！"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，我請北榮副院長跟你說一下。"],["賴委員惠員：好，副院長。"],["李副院長偉強：謝謝委員，我是臺北榮總李偉強副院長。我們3個榮總在AI系統都有很好的發展，跟委員報告，AI它本身驅動是靠它的data、它的資料，所以現在北榮研發基本上是以我們的資料庫，中榮也是，其實我們中間有很多的交流，中榮還特別幫我們其他12個榮民分院建立一套他們的系統。臺北榮總研發出來AI的產品都無償提供給我們的分院來試用還有做聯邦學習，所以我們事實上是一起努力。"],["賴委員惠員：可是現在我們所看到分院的資料，其實還是在做客服服務，沒有像你們進入到一個護理系統的使用，這是為什麼呢？"],["李副院長偉強：謝謝委員。有關護理系統，就是委員最關心的部分，目前我們護理系統做了一些AI研發，其中委員剛剛特別提到我們可以自動幫護理人員做他們護理紀錄的自動生成，我想委員應該是關心這個事情，我們是今年護師節的時候特別把它正式啟用，在此之前我們是做研發，所以現在啟用大概差不多3、4個月，大家反應都非常好，護理人員都很喜歡，我們接下來下一步就是要分給我們所有的分院。"],["賴委員惠員：不是，我想副院長歪題了，我在問的是你們所有的分院都可以做好這麼好的AI系統，你們不管是自己的，還是外面廠商共同的研發，其實都要花錢，顯然我在這個預算裡頭沒有看到你們各自不管是中榮還是南榮，你們的預算有多少？我在這裡要跟主委建議，你們已經建立這麼好的組織架構，你應該把它併進來，資源要共享，況且榮總的系統在整個醫療的系統而言就是一個獨立、非常強的系統，當然我不能講說你們比臺大還強，臺大是單獨的系統，頂多是一個成大。在榮民系統裡頭有北、中、南，然後北榮有7個分院，中榮好像有3個分院，你們有這麼強的醫療網應該要建置一個更好的、共用的系統，這是我這一次在質詢對主委所做的要求跟建議，請主委跟我回復一下。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員指導，我請臺中榮總說明，因為他是負責整合，臺中榮總院長跟你報告。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，AI的系統你熟不熟？除了打仗以外，在護理上AI系統的應用。"],["嚴主任委員德發：它是人工智慧，是一個智慧系統。"],["賴委員惠員：對，是一個智慧系統，我覺得這個會減少醫護的人力，你其實要好好地善用，你最優秀的醫事人員都在這個地方，我希望主委稍微瞭解一下，你可以表現得更好，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-2","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","林楚茵","黃仁","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","邱志偉","賴惠員","林憶君","賴士葆","陳永康"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00011"}}},{"id":"163881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff073b60a242ce8880e2b1f00580874b155522ce05ac16c0400123a4db8f526838d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:46:14 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他在外面 他在這邊租場地他所有的內臟他說來自於台續公司然後他的販賣場所 製作場所他在你們的登錄平台裡面衛福部登錄平台裡面全部都是在屏東台續公司的場所你們有看到他有其他的場所嗎"},{"start":220.868,"end":243.427,"text":"沒有 不知道我想跟委員報告部長 我要說的是源頭衛福部叫做後面啦你們叫做源頭啦如果源頭都不知道的話他後面怎麼查都沒用今天他在台訊公司台訊公司發了一個新聞稿說跟他沒關係所以全台灣的人都不知道跟誰有關係農業部要去知道跟誰有關係啊"},{"start":244.668,"end":272.86,"text":"部長這部分是不是可以短期內盡速調查清楚他到底在哪裡洗是不是在這裡洗在這裡洗台序公司就不能說他不知道啊我想我們會跟衛福部但是我要跟委員報告就是我們負責是屠宰黨 屠宰端那屠宰出來以後他是進到食品端的部分雖然說他的場地是在屠宰黨租的但是不能說租的就是食品端但是我們會跟衛福部一起我們跟衛福部一起我要說的是"},{"start":273.76,"end":295.816,"text":"在屠宰以前就是你們管那我們總要知道台灣今天有多少豬被屠宰有多少量可以做成所謂的後續的加工這些數量都不清楚然後又有一大堆進口的所以現在找不到多少數量這才是我的問題所以我要說的是如果屠宰廠是農業不管這件事情是不是要把源頭搞清楚"},{"start":296.876,"end":317.863,"text":"數量金額跟到底是不是在這裡給他的數量我覺得這兩個部分要清楚再跟進口的部分把它理清楚否則將來就是我這邊給你都是正常的可是你賣出去的都是不正常那不是很奇怪嗎部長你了解我的意思嗎你查到都正常奇怪他賣出來不正常那是怎樣見鬼了嗎"},{"start":319.011,"end":345.066,"text":"我希望農業部在這邊是不是也可以盡速的給我們包括立法委員都很關心這件事情能夠給社會一個交代好嗎數量要查出來我想我還是要跟衛福部一起一起去處理這件事情我們會一起來處理這個事情但是不能說因為我查到都是正常的所以他其他事情我都不知道我只講說土體的部分因為進到食品工廠我們農業部是沒辦法進到食品工廠去查的"},{"start":345.845,"end":357.309,"text":"所以這就是問題啊農業部要說的是我們要知道源頭管理可能比事後查核更重要好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝黃瑟琛委員好 接下來是林益勤委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時46分）謝謝主席，我想請衛福部呂次長，還有農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請呂次長、陳部長。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長跟部長，我想大家都非常關心關稅的衝擊，我們的食品安全在這次的關稅談判裡面也是一個重要的事項。中秋連假大家最關心的事情，尤其北部民眾最關心的是，百威公司的黑心豬腸用工業級雙氧水漂白，大部分的民眾現在都只有看到新聞，吃下肚的大概也來不及了。現在的問題就在於目前是調查局做調查，食安問題在臺灣從以前到現在，不但加嚴而且加重，但是業者還是敢用這樣的方式處理。我想問一下，第一個，衛福部現在找到相關的源頭了嗎？知道我們到底有多少東西被吃下肚了？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對於這個問題的關心，跟委員報告，我們目前有掌握，屏東百威現在已經有查封。"],["黃委員珊珊：查封、現存，但是多少流到市面上，已經被吃下肚了？到底有多少？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，針對這個部分，我們目前還在進行當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：還沒掌握？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：只抓到現有的，但是他的帳冊這些其實都可以看得出來他的源頭。多久之內可以有個相關的、具體的數字？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在分兩個部分，第一個，今天部長也已經……我們現在先具體裁罰5,000萬，這是第一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，現在的問題很嚴重！"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在新聞一出來是臺北寧夏夜市整個生意都毀了！第二個，阿忠麵線每天賣多少大腸麵線，你知道嗎？這件事情若不釐清，讓所有的市民、人民感覺恐慌，我覺得這件事情很嚴重。你還不知道有多少？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在的封存產品總共有1萬2,604公斤，下架有2,430公斤待銷毀。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以被吃下肚有多少？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們目前在清查當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：在清查中，大概1萬公斤！重點我想問一下農業部，這個公司在屏東台畜公司的屠宰場裡面租了一個場地，這件事情農業部知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的了解是所有這些被查獲的內臟都是合格的，都有經過正式的衛生屠宰。"],["黃委員珊珊：在他們的場地裡面是合格的，出來的就不合格了，那到底原因在哪裡？今天台畜公司租給他，他在這邊清洗，沒有人知道，是嗎？農業部查了之後，現場有沒有看到工業用的雙氧水？"],["陳部長駿季：檢察官也有帶隊去看，所有的這些屠體，包括內臟都是有合格標章的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以他在外面亂洗，還是在這裡洗？不知道？他在哪裡洗的？他是不是在這個場地洗的？"],["陳部長駿季：百威是一個食品公司，不是在屠宰場裡面的。"],["黃委員珊珊：他在這邊租場地，他所有的內臟說來自台畜公司，然後他的販賣場所、製作場所在你們衛福部的登錄平臺裡面全部都是在屏東台畜公司的場所，你們有看到他有其他的場所嗎？沒有？不知道？"],["陳部長駿季：我想跟委員報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我要說的是源頭，衛福部叫做後面啦！你們叫做源頭啦！如果源頭都不知道的話，他後面怎麼查都沒用。今天他在台畜公司……"],["陳部長駿季：我們負責的是屠宰場的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：台畜公司發了一個新聞稿說跟他們沒關係，所以全臺灣的人都不知道跟誰有關係。農業部要去知道跟誰有關係啊！部長，這部分是不是可以短期內儘速調查清楚他到底在哪裡洗？是不是在這裡洗？在這裡洗，台畜公司就不能說他們不知道啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會跟衛福部……但是我要跟委員報告，我們負責的是屠宰端，屠宰出來了以後，它是進到食品端的部分，雖然說他的場地是在屠宰場租的，但是不能說租的就是食品，但是我們會跟衛福部一起……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你跟衛福部一起，我都理解。我要說的是屠宰以前就是你們管，那我們總要知道臺灣今天有多少豬被屠宰，有多少量可以做成後續的加工，這些數量都不清楚，然後又一大堆進口的，所以現在找不到多少數量，這才是我的問題嘛！我要說的是，如果屠宰場是農業部管，這件事情是不是要把源頭搞清楚？包含金額跟這裡給他的數量，我覺得這兩個部分要很清楚，再跟進口的部分把它釐清楚，否則將來就是我這邊給你都是正常的，可是你賣出去的都不正常，這不是很奇怪嗎？部長，你了解我的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：你查的都正常，奇怪，他賣出來不正常，那是怎樣，見鬼了嗎？農業部是不是可以儘速給我們……包括立法委員都很關心這件事情，你們要能夠給社會一個交代，好嗎？數量要查出來。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們還是要跟衛福部一起去處理這件事情，我們會一起來處理這個事情。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯，我們會……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是不能說因為我查到都是正常的，所以其他事情我都不知道。"],["陳部長駿季：我只講屠體的部分，因為若進到食品工廠，我們農業部是沒辦法進到食品工廠去查的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這就是問題啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們會一起來做。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：農業部，我要說的是，我們要知道源頭管理可能比事後查核更重要，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接下來我們請林宜瑾委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0596a5d501c4fc0242b1f00580874b155522ce05ac16c04005c646c8d84b4e4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:40:16 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部長上個月你有親自到彰化的這個水五金業者那邊去做一個參訪那這會中你有特別提到就是說因應這個關稅問題那有提到就是說"},{"start":15.209,"end":33.997,"text":"能够协助业者比如说提升国际的曝光度政府会在国际商展成立一个台湾馆另外还有加速产业园区推动田园生产聚落特定区解决产房土地不足的问题"},{"start":34.917,"end":61.735,"text":"還有AI人才的培訓部長我想請教因為這一次的從4月份的關稅到目前為止其實彰化有很多的船產確實是受到影響我想請教就是說針對我們這些船產要怎麼樣讓它能夠繼續的營運下去因為我最近到一些"},{"start":64.196,"end":88.087,"text":"水五金專區也好或者是在做腳踏車零件的其實他們受到的影響真的都非常的大我想請教就是說因為我們之前田園工廠的部分我們有收納管輔導金還有營運管理金 雙金地方收了這雙金之後其實實際用在輔導"},{"start":89.468,"end":113.194,"text":"福岛这些农地工厂或者是做补助的比例不到1%我们收了136亿实际用在福岛跟补助不到一成我想请教因为现在目前确实这些传产营运确实会碰到一些困难"},{"start":113.954,"end":122.623,"text":"那有沒有可能就針對這雙金就是納管輔導金跟營運管理金可以先停收或者是減半"},{"start":124.389,"end":142.381,"text":"報告委員因為這兩個金主要是地方政府他主要收的目的是說當這個田園園區開始實施的時候他要做一些公共建設公共的管購等等一些情況但是因為這個園區的抱邊"},{"start":146.184,"end":173.489,"text":"現在內政部是講說他們會儘快儘快初步的趕快如果通過的話那就可以開始往下走那這樣來講的話這些金它的用途就會很快的可以用在整個公共建設的部分那使得這個園區可以正常的一些發展那也許剛剛部長講的就是水五金專區的這個部分那其他一般散落在各地的這個農地工廠其實他們也是都有繳"},{"start":175.95,"end":202.06,"text":"這個納管輔導金還有營運管理金那確實撇開這個水五金專區不講其他的這個部分確實傳產這部分真的受到蠻大的影響剛剛勞動部這邊也有特別提到就是在放無薪假的人也是越來越多那針對這部分其實也可以減輕這些業者的一個壓力我是不是可以請經濟部這邊可以針對這部分跟地方政府可以再做一個協調"},{"start":203.4,"end":224.59,"text":"既然使用這個雙晶這個比例不到一成的話那是不是可以協助這些業者可以暫時也許可以減半或者是暫時先不要收一年兩年先不要收其實對這些業者來講其實是有一些幫助的所以我是不是可以請部長可以"},{"start":225.59,"end":250.261,"text":"回去可以跟這些地方政府可以再做一個協調可以 我們來協調是不是有階段性的一些措施或做法可不可以給我一個時間因為我記得我在上個月上個月我已經有跟次長這邊有聯繫過那次長也有特別提到就是說會請會約地方政府來那我們下個月再回報委員看看處理的狀況"},{"start":251.161,"end":272.329,"text":"好 我們希望就是說確實剛剛我看到經濟部的一個簡報確實也對這些業者有一些協助有一些幫助可是就是說這個也不是短時間內可以看到一個結果可是如果是針對我們的納管輔導金或營運管理金的話其實是可以對他們有一些幫助的是不是確實"},{"start":274.79,"end":302.038,"text":"拜托我们部长这边真的能够来协助那也协助地方政府就是赶快协调那短时间内针对这些业者能够有一些帮忙那另外就是说确实我们的这个关税的这个议题从4月份那到一直到现在这个一些业者他们说他们的报价不知道不知道要怎么报报给不知道要怎么报"},{"start":303.618,"end":323.445,"text":"就是說跟其他國家可能確實會有一些很競爭的一個關係所以我們也希望就是說當然我們的政府也很努力在談判當然就是說希望能夠有一個好的結果能夠針對關稅能夠再有一個好的結果最快的一個結果就是說經濟部能夠實際的協助這些業者能夠站穩腳步是"},{"start":330.909,"end":343.007,"text":"特別預算通過以後我們就會盡力的我們輔導團也要成立了那就會趕快來執行謝謝黃秀芳委員接下來請黃珊珊委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時40分）謝謝主席，請經濟部長。"],["主席：龔部長請。"],["龔部長明鑫：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，上個月你有親自到彰化的水五金業者那邊參訪，在會中你也有特別提到，因應這個關稅問題能夠協助業者，譬如說提升國際的曝光度，政府會在國際商展成立一個臺灣館；另外還有加速產業園區、推動田園生產聚落特定區，解決廠房及土地不足的問題；還有AI人才的培訓。","我想請教部長，這一次的關稅問題從4月份到目前為止，彰化有很多的傳產確實受到影響。我想請教，針對我們這些傳產要怎麼樣讓他們能夠繼續營運下去？因為我最近到水五金專區或者在做腳踏車零件的，他們受到的影響真的都非常大，而之前針對田園工廠的部分，我們有收納管輔導金還有營運管理金等雙金，地方收了雙金之後，實際用在輔導這些農地工廠或者是補助的比例不到10%，我們收了136億，實際用在輔導跟補助的不到一成。我想請教，因為目前這些傳產的營運確實會碰到一些困難，有沒有可能針對雙金──納管輔導金跟營運管理金可以先停收或者是減半？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這兩個金主要是地方政府收，他收這個的主要目的是，當田園園區開始實施的時候他要做一些公共建設、公共的管溝等等。但是關於這個園區的報編，現在內政部講說他們會儘快，如果通過的話就可以開始往下走，這樣來講的話，這雙金的用途就會很快地可以用在整個公共建設的部分，使得這個園區可以正常的發展。"],["黃委員秀芳：剛剛部長講的是水五金專區部分。"],["龔部長明鑫：是！"],["黃委員秀芳：其他一般散落在各地的農地工廠其實也都有繳納管輔導金還有營運管理金，撇開水五金專區不講，其他傳產部分確實受到滿大的影響，剛剛勞動部這邊也有特別提到放無薪假的人也是越來越多，這部分其實也可以減輕這些業者的壓力，我是不是可以請經濟部針對這部分跟地方政府再做協調？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們再跟地方政府討論一下。"],["黃委員秀芳：既然使用這個雙金的比例不到一成的話，那是不是可以協助這些業者，也許可以減半或者暫時先不要收，1年、2年先不要收，其實對這些業者來講是有一些幫助的，所以我是不是請部長回去可以跟這些地方政府再協調？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以，我們來協調是不是有階段性的一些措施或作法。"],["黃委員秀芳：可不可以給我一個時間？因為我記得我在上個月……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們儘快。"],["黃委員秀芳：我上個月已經有跟次長聯繫過，次長也有特別提到會約地方政府來……"],["龔部長明鑫：我們下個月再回報委員處理的狀況。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望……剛剛我看到經濟部的簡報，確實也對這些業者有一些協助、幫助，但這也不是短時間內可以看到一個結果，可是如果是針對我們的納管輔導金或營運管理金的話，其實是對他們有一些幫助的，拜託部長能夠來協助，也協助地方政府趕快協調，短時間內針對這些業者能夠有一些幫忙。","另外，我們關稅的議題，從4月份一直到現在，一些業者說他們的報價不知道要怎麼報，跟其他國家可能確實會有一些很競爭的關係，所以我們也希望……當然我們政府也很努力在談判，希望能夠針對關稅再有一個好的結果，最快的結果就是經濟部能夠實際協助這些業者站穩腳步，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：是，特別預算通過以後，我們就會盡力，我們輔導團也要成立了，就會趕快來執行。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員。","接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163879","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163879","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff092e2f9392a3422520a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c04005c646c8d84b4e4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:37:15 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副總統選舉罷免辦法要不要提出兩輪制的投票"},{"start":151.977,"end":174.334,"text":"那我來講一下現在現行寫在我們憲法徵修條文裡面的因為主委過去是法律界出身那也擔任過司法官那也擔任過內政部市長也擔任過各個相關的政務委員等等的那我想要請教主委1994年修憲的時候在憲法徵修條文裡面"},{"start":178.43,"end":206.731,"text":"中華民國總統副總統由自由地區全體人民直接選舉之而且總統副總統候選人因聯名登記在選票上同一列列同一組圈選以得票最多之一組當選這是徵修條文裡面的內容如果改成兩票兩輪制那原本票在第一輪最多的卻在兩輪制裡面"},{"start":208.561,"end":237.34,"text":"第二輪裡面變成沒有當選請問有沒有違反這個憲法徵修條文裡面的內容憲法的徵修條文沒有改變的情況之下的話根本沒有所謂的第二輪對好那如果他去修兩輪制那變成第二輪裡面他其實在第一輪投票的時候他是票多者依據憲法徵修條文票多者他已經當選了"},{"start":238.837,"end":265.884,"text":"對不對啊你改成第二輪變成他沒有當選這樣有沒有跟憲法抵觸這相關的配套一個制度必須要都周延啦所以有一些問題不是那麼簡單的就說一輪兩輪絕對都是相對都是不是還有其他配套的這個制度怎麼配套好怎麼配套跟憲法抵觸的時候怎麼配套主委你是法律人啊跟憲法抵觸的時候怎麼配跟憲法抵觸就無套可配了你就要修憲嘛"},{"start":267.332,"end":292.349,"text":"是不是就要進入修憲上一次的修憲是1994年的時候民定總統副總統選舉辦法票多者當選好時隔30年台灣這一套民主制度台灣也從1996年開始總統直選之後所有的這一套民主制度我們目前已經選出了歷任的總統"},{"start":293.82,"end":315.916,"text":"而且都是依循1994年所修憲的這一套版本如果要碰到要把第二輪投票放進來勢必抵觸到憲法徵銷條文勢必回歸到1994年這一次的修憲內容其實已經否決了第二輪的投票其實已經否決了當時要做這個當選門檻的這個投票所以"},{"start":323.902,"end":342.019,"text":"不要再避免了就是說我的意思是說包含限訴法你用限訴法去毀掉大法官的這些釋憲的這些功能之後難道台灣的大法官台灣的憲法法庭就要停擺嗎你現在可能因為認為"},{"start":345.485,"end":373.171,"text":"賴總統他這次當選的票數雖然在相對多數的比較下他還是當選總統你就要去修改二輪投票請問1994年以來投票到現在你就要把它推翻台灣現在民主的這些養成嗎他還是必須要依靠一部憲法啦所以我要論述的是可以修改但是你要修改的最後其實是憲法"},{"start":374.045,"end":399.171,"text":"我們依循的我們的民主我們的選舉等等我們都依循這一部憲法在運作所以主委最後我還是那個邏輯第一輪投票票多的應該當選總統沒有錯而且我們憲法裡面也沒有寫到什麼第一輪第二輪投票如果要討論的話是不是應該進入修憲我剛剛就已經講過了這個是必須要修改憲法相關的規定謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時37分）謝謝，有請李主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝主委，你也即將在下個月任期屆滿。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的支持。"],["李委員柏毅：這幾年從2018年公投綁大選之後，有做了很多包含選務上幾次的大選，中選會也是辛苦了。我重複一下剛剛高金委員沒有講清楚的事情，讓主委這邊也可以再重複的回應一次。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：修好了！選罷法修好了，是什麼修好了？我來重複一下，因為我等一下還會跟主委談到1994年的修憲，趁立法院去年度的修法，我覺得大家還印象深刻的時候，在這邊重複一下是什麼東西修好了，選罷法是把罷免制度裡面的連署規則修好了，中國國民黨加上民眾黨把連署的規則改成必須要附什麼？附身分證。附身分證影印的連署之後，目前還沒有任何一案的罷免案產生，主委，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：目前沒有。"],["李委員柏毅：所以在上一次中選會所舉辦的所有罷免投票裡面是沒有含身分證影本的，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：都是適用舊法。"],["李委員柏毅：他說新法修好了的意思是以後的罷免必須要附身分證影本，所以當時的民進黨黨團、我們的委員才會把主席臺占下來，希望可以吸引全國的目光，讓全國民眾知道未來罷免是要附身分證影本，不是我們這樣子人數少就被強行通過，我們用盡了所有的辦法，就是希望所有的民眾可以知道這件事情，這個是去年罷免案，剛剛有委員說修好了，其實是修這一個事情，我在這邊重複一下。","接下來，我也看到在開議前其實已經有很多風向球出來了，包含中國國民黨委員有提出總統副總統選舉罷免辦法，要不要提出二輪制的投票，我來講一下現行寫在憲法增修條文裡面的規定，因為主委過去是法律界出身，也擔任過司法官，也擔任過內政部次長，也擔任過各個相關的政務委員等等。我想要請教主委，1994年修憲的時候，在憲法增修條文裡面對中華民國總統、副總統由自由地區全體人民直接選舉之，而且總統、副總統候選人應聯名登記，在選票上列同一組圈選，以得票最多之一組當選，這是增修條文裡面的內容。如果改成二輪制，原本票在第一輪最多的，卻在二輪制裡面的第二輪變成沒有當選，請問有沒有違反憲法增修條文裡面的內容？"],["李主任委員進勇：憲法增修條文沒有改變的情況之下，根本沒有所謂的第二輪。"],["李委員柏毅：對，如果修改成二輪制，其實在第一輪投票的時候他是票多者，依據憲法增修條文的規定，票多者已經當選了，對不對？改成第二輪變成他沒有當選，這樣有沒有跟憲法牴觸？"],["李主任委員進勇：相關的配套、一個制度必須要周延，所以有一些問題不是那麼簡單的一輪、二輪、絕對多數、相對多數，不是，還有其他配套的制度要必須要……"],["李委員柏毅：好，怎麼配套？跟憲法牴觸的時候怎麼配套？主委，你是法律人，跟憲法牴觸的時候怎麼配套？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟憲法牴觸的時候就無套可配了。"],["李委員柏毅：你就要修憲嘛！是不是就要進入修憲？"],["李主任委員進勇：要修憲。"],["李委員柏毅：上一次修憲是1994年的時候，明定總統副總統選舉辦法票多者當選，時隔30年，臺灣這一套民主制度，臺灣也從1996年開始總統直選之後，這一套民主制度目前已經選出了歷任總統，而且都是依循1994年所修憲的這一套版本。如果碰到要把第二輪投票放進來，勢必牴觸到憲法增修條文，勢必回歸到1994年這一次的修憲內容其實已經否決了第二輪的投票，其實已經否決了當時要做當選門檻的投票，所以不要再搞那些了啦！我的意思是包含憲訴法，你用憲訴法去毀掉大法官這一些釋憲功能之後，難道臺灣的大法官、臺灣的憲法法庭就要停擺嗎？你現在因為認為賴總統在這一次當選的票數，雖然在相對多數的比較下，他還是當選總統，你就要去修改二輪投票，請問1994年以來投票到現在，你要推翻臺灣現在民主的這些養成嗎？它還是必須要依靠一部憲法。所以我要論述的是可以修改，但是你要修改的最後其實是憲法，我們的民主、我們的選舉等等都是依循這一部憲法在運作，主委，最後我還是那一個邏輯，第一輪投票票多的應該當選總統沒有錯，而且我們憲法裡面也沒有寫到第一輪、第二輪投票，如果要討論的話是不是應該進入修憲？"],["李主任委員進勇：我剛剛就已經講過了，這個是必須要修改憲法的相關規定。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢。","休息10分鐘。","休息（10時44分）","繼續開會（10時56分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","請黃建賓召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163878","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163878","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff019a08dd5e6e1152a0a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400f0e74eb070a3a03c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:27:32 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我們也動員了將近27萬的人力那麼我要再請教主委 到現在為止這種勞民又傷財的這個大罷免制度你覺得是值得鼓勵 值得推廣的嗎"},{"start":98.268,"end":103.029,"text":"這個牽涉到我先要講的是無差別的大罷免這牽涉到這個政治上的判斷我們選務機關是不宜來發表評論我們要的我們做的就是如果是合法的程序進來的話那我們就依照法律的規定來順利的把選務很好所以當然現在呢"},{"start":122.293,"end":136.723,"text":"我們也已經修法了修得非常完善了比較完善一點但是我還記得當時我做召委的時候在這邊修這個法的時候非常的遺憾民進黨的朋友們在這邊霸佔了主席台癱瘓了"},{"start":138.144,"end":162.427,"text":"好久的議事規程但是最後終究我們在立法院還是刪讀通過了把這個選罷法給他比較完善的修法了那當時我們也看到民進黨的立法院的黨團吳思堯幹事長還沒修法之前他說選舉跟罷免都是憲法所保障的民主制度也是人民的基本權利"},{"start":163.548,"end":187.405,"text":"任何政黨還有從政者都應該尊重然後蘇巧惠委員她也說她說這樣的行動呢深化了台灣的公民運動跟民主素養雖然我們現在回過頭來看根本少有所謂的公民運動所謂的公民者其實也就是政黨發動的大家也得看得非常的清楚"},{"start":187.905,"end":211.264,"text":"那么我还想要再进一步的请问您您是否也认同吴思耀干事长跟苏巧慧委员说的只要他形式上符合了人民直接投票的参政权就是对民族有益对人民有好处的参与方式您认为怎么样 您认同吗"},{"start":212.007,"end":227.342,"text":"只要是按照法律的規定所提出的不管是選舉罷免或者是公民投票我們都依法必須要受理這也是我們最重要的核心願望謝謝您非常這樣子制式的回答"},{"start":228.203,"end":242.797,"text":"那我雖然尊重您的看法也尊重吳思瑤委員跟蘇巧慧委員的看法但是呢我也必須要說按照你們的說法所謂形式上它符合人民直接投票的參政權"},{"start":243.838,"end":265.653,"text":"就必然就是對民族有益 那麼我就請大家不要雙標為什麼 因為當時我在修選辦法70條 71條 73條的時候我主張原住民的立委只要是出缺 他就必須要跟區域的立委是一樣的一旦出缺了 他就必須要補選"},{"start":267.074,"end":280.511,"text":"而當時我們的內政部他有展現善意他明確的回應我說原住民的立法委員跟區域的立委同屬立法委員但出缺的時候就必須要按照"},{"start":281.944,"end":309.807,"text":"規定來相同內政不是同意的那麼中選會當時您告訴我說原住民的立法委員補選的時候這形同辦理全國性的選舉它需要花費大量的人力跟物力的等等的資源明白的講當時主委您的意思就是說當原住民的立委出缺的時候我們的族人要透過補選要選出適合的人選的時候"},{"start":310.988,"end":337.92,"text":"您說太花錢不值得辦但是當民進黨他要推動耗資上億元的罷免案的時候你卻說你這個尊重立法院然後你也說這是深化民主值得鼓勵主委你不覺得這就是雙重標準嗎我更坦白的說這是歧視我們原住民參政權還是說當民進黨他要"},{"start":338.92,"end":348.904,"text":"政治追殺的時候什麼都可以但是當原住民要求跟非原住民一樣的平等權利的時候民進黨的朋友們你們卻習慣選擇視而不見尤其是現在執政是民進黨"},{"start":355,"end":379.193,"text":"在這裡我要嚴正的告訴也提醒族委民進黨對於我們族人的選舉權的歧視不是一天兩天的事因為這件事情我提了很久你們執政大概已經快九年了而這件事情呢我看在眼裡 痛在心裡面"},{"start":379.833,"end":382.959,"text":"大罷免花了這麼多錢原住民的補選沒有錢也沒有人力所以我認為這不是制度的問題這是政治的選擇問題您可不可以回答"},{"start":392.665,"end":417.69,"text":"我已經把我內心的話說出來了另外我好不容易爭取到的優化原住民的選舉人領票作業事辦計畫的報告我其實就是為了要一次性解決長期存在我們族人選票誤發這個主委您很清楚我在這邊質詢了很多次族人選票誤發少發或者是沒有發的問題請問一下主委"},{"start":420.251,"end":428.792,"text":"這項事辦計畫目前的執行進度到哪裡了您11月已經要離開你的位置了你必須清楚交代一下"},{"start":429.529,"end":451.22,"text":"在我離開這個位置之前我們已經兩次一次在6月一次在9月兩次的要求各地選委會必須要針對這個專案要先進行一些準備的工作可是主委您知道嗎我看到的是114年的12月底你們才會跟地方召開會議"},{"start":452.541,"end":480.073,"text":"然後這個會議裡面其實我們看不到細部的規劃也不知道你們要怎麼樣執行你們要如何來幫助族人來解決這個問題有一些前置的工作還是必須要先定案第一個就是投票的日期第二個就是投票所然後這兩個事情決定了我們還要去統計在我們事辦的區域裡面到底有多少的原住民的選民"},{"start":481.033,"end":500.344,"text":"诸如此类的这个规划的工作都会在年初明年的年初我们选务的协调会的时候都会具体的来定定所以这件事情你会非常负责任的交代下去然后接任你的人必须要完成这项工作我已经交代过两次了"},{"start":501.525,"end":530.348,"text":"已經交代過兩次所以我在這邊也公正的要求我們的中選會你們必須在一個月之內給我提出素面報告有兩項第一個請盡速提出原住民立委補選經費的精算跟通盤檢討的報告我們必須要讓社會清楚了解原住民的立法委員出區的時候補選我們到底會動用多少的財力還有多少的人力好嗎第二個"},{"start":531.021,"end":548.899,"text":"必須要優化原住民選舉人領票作業事辦計畫這個計畫不僅僅適用在地方公職選舉更應該要全面擴大到中央層級的民代選舉我們必須要用制度化的方式來保障我們族人的選舉權跟平等的參政權"},{"start":551.982,"end":560.99,"text":"這個領票優化徹底的方式就是說原住民的這個選舉人名稱是另外造成沒關係你一年內之內必須要正式的提書面報告給我可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝主委請保重身體"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":478,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時27分）謝謝可愛的美惠召委，我們現在請中選會李主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["高金委員素梅：主委您身體還好嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：還好，謝謝委員關心。"],["高金委員素梅：您快退休了吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：動了一個小手術。"],["高金委員素梅：所以看起來您今天的行動好像有一點不太像以前，快退休了吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：快到任了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，OK。"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有退休金，是屆期。"],["高金委員素梅：好，屆期。雖然您已經快屆期離開這個職位，但是我覺得做一天和尚敲一天鐘，該做的事情，該負的責任，還是得要完整的把它結束，好嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：並且交接。今天有幾個問題想要問您，這次的大罷免案最終雖然是以失敗收場，但是代價卻是我們全國納稅的人民共同承擔。在9月2號的時候你也說，一案的罷免經費是1,700萬到1,800萬，因為年度預算不夠，所以必須動用第二預備金，所以這一次的罷免案總共是4億281.5萬元，而在人力方面，我們也動員了將近27萬的人力。我要再請教主委，到現在為止，這種勞民又傷財的大罷免制度，你覺得是值得鼓勵、值得推廣的嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個牽涉到政治上……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在要講的是無差別的大罷免。"],["李主任委員進勇：這牽涉到政治上的判斷，我們選務機關是不宜來發表評論，我們做的就是如果是合法程序進來的話，我們就依照法律的規定順利的把選務完成。"],["高金委員素梅：很好，現在我們也已經修法了，修得非常完善了，比較完善一點，但是我還記得當時我做召委在這邊修這個法的時候，非常的遺憾，民進黨的朋友們在這邊霸占了主席臺，癱瘓了好久的議事規程，但是最後終究我們在立法院還是三讀通過了，把這個選罷法比較完善的修法了。","當時我們也看到民進黨的立法院黨團吳思瑤幹事長，還沒修法之前他說，選舉跟罷免都是憲法所保障的民主制度，也是人民的基本權利，任何政黨還有從政者都應該尊重。然後蘇巧慧委員他也說，他說這樣的行動深化了臺灣的公民運動跟民主素養。雖然我們現在回過頭來看，根本少有所謂的公民運動，所謂的公民者，其實也就是政黨發動的，大家也看得非常清楚，那麼我還想要再進一步的請問您，您是否也認同吳思瑤幹事長跟蘇巧慧委員說的，只要它形式上符合了人民直接投票的參政權，就是對民主有益、對人民有好處的參與方式，您認為怎麼樣？您認同嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：只要是按照法律的規定所提出的，不管是選舉、罷免或者是公民投票，我們都依法必須要受理，這也是我們最重要的核心業務。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝您非常制式的回答。我雖然尊重您的看法，也尊重吳思瑤委員跟蘇巧慧委員的看法，但是我也必須要說，按照你們的說法，所謂形式上它符合人民直接投票的參政權就必然對民主有益，那麼我就請大家不要雙標，為什麼？因為當時我在修選罷法第七十條、第七十一條、第七十三條的時候，我主張原住民的立委只要是出缺，他就必須要跟區域的立委是一樣的，一旦出缺了就必須要補選，而當時我們的內政部也有展現善意，他明確的回應我說，原住民的立法委員跟區域的立委同屬立法委員，但出缺的時候，必須要按照相同的規定來辦理，內政部是同意的。那麼中選會當時您告訴我說，原住民立法委員補選的時候，這形同辦理全國性的選舉，它需要花費大量的人力跟物力等等的資源。明白地講，當時主委您的意思就是說，當原住民的立委出缺的時候，我們的族人要透過補選選出適合人選的時候，您說太花錢，不值得辦。但是當民進黨他要推動耗資上億元罷免案的時候，你卻說你尊重立法院，然後你也說這是深化民主，值得鼓勵，主委，你不覺得這就是雙重標準嗎？我更坦白地說，這是歧視我們原住民參政權，還是說當民進黨他要政治追殺的時候什麼都可以，但是當原住民要求跟非原住民一樣的平等權利的時候，民進黨的朋友們，你們卻習慣選擇視而不見，尤其是現在執政是民進黨，在這裡我要嚴正……"],["李主任委員進勇：剛剛……"],["高金委員素梅：等一下，我要嚴正地告訴也提醒主委，民進黨對於我們族人的選舉權的歧視，不是一天兩天的事，因為這件事情我提了很久，你們執政也已經快9年了，而這件事情我看在眼裡，痛在心裡面，大罷免花了這麼多錢，原住民的補選沒有錢，也沒有人力，所以我認為這不是制度的問題，這是政治的選擇問題，您可以不要回答，我已經把我內心的話說出來了。","另外，我好不容易爭取到的優化原住民的選舉人領票作業試辦計畫的報告，我其實就是為了要一次性解決長期存在我們族人選票誤發，這個主委你很清楚，我在這邊質詢了很多次，族人選票誤發、少發或是沒有發的問題，請問一下主委，這項試辦計畫，目前的執行進度到哪裡了？您11月已經要離開你的位置了，你必須清楚交代一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：在我離開這個位置之前，我們已經兩次，一次在6月，一次在9月，兩次要求各地選委會必須要針對這個專案先進行一些準備的工作。"],["高金委員素梅：可是主委您知道嗎？我看到的是114年12月底你們才會跟地方召開會議，這個會議裡面其實我們看不到細部的規劃，也不知道你們要怎麼樣執行，你們要如何來幫助族人解決這個問題？"],["李主任委員進勇：有一些前置的工作還是必須要先定案，第一個是投票日期；第二個是投票所，這兩個事情決定了，我們還要去統計在我們試辦的區域裡面到底有多少原住民選民，諸如此類的規劃工作都會在明年年初我們選務協調會的時候具體地來訂定，要求各地方……"],["高金委員素梅：所以這件事情您會非常負責任地交代下去，然後接任你的人必須要完成這項工作。"],["李主任委員進勇：我已經交代過兩次了。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝，所以我在這邊也嚴正地、公正地要求中選會，你們必須在一個月之內提出書面報告給我，有兩項：第一個，請儘速提出原住民立委補選經費的精算和通盤檢討的報告，我們必須要讓社會清楚了解原住民的立法委員出缺時的補選，到底會動用多少的財力，還有多少的人力，好嗎？第二個，必須要優化原住民選舉人領票作業試辦計畫，這個計畫不僅僅適用在地方公職選舉，更應該要全面擴大到中央層級的民代選舉，我們必須要用制度化的方式來保障我們族人的選舉權和平等的參政權，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：領票優化澈底的方式就是原住民的選舉人名冊是另外造冊的，另外造冊必須要跟內政部……"],["高金委員素梅：沒關係，你一個月之內必須要正式地提出書面報告給我，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，沒問題。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝主委，請保重身體。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢。","接下來請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163877","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163877","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0013e1327c4302df10a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400f0e74eb070a3a03c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:18:47 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謝謝主席 我們請李主委有請李主委委員好"},{"start":13.618,"end":33.954,"text":"好 主委好喔 因為前面有非常多位委員都還是在討論這個公投綁大選的問題所以我在這邊希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶那其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道說邊投票邊開票會造成非常多的選務的問題那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的台北市候選人丁守中嘛"},{"start":34.574,"end":51.69,"text":"他甚至出來說這個邊投票邊開票影響選舉的結果甚至他認為這個現象非常的荒謬那我也不知道說為什麼當時的國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選"},{"start":53.712,"end":76.352,"text":"那那時候我們也還記得說因為投票投到半夜三點半造成非常多選務人員很辛苦甚至有過勞的情況然後還有很多選民因為投不到票導致說很多縣市甚至公投的投票率並沒有增加反而下降因為他排太久了反而很多選民沒有辦法因此的投票投到票影響他們的選舉的權利"},{"start":79.014,"end":108.514,"text":"那所以其實到後來我們把選人跟選事分開就是希望說這個民主可以深化嘛讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題針對人就好好討論人所以當時的公投綁大選在這樣的脈絡之下2021有這樣的結果甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選才有了現在這樣子把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度那目前運行到現在我們主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎"},{"start":109.795,"end":131.054,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有發現任何自愛難行之處選務的部分也都是相當的順利所以沒有任何新的一種狀況需要說在這個時候我們對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討我認為沒有這個必要"},{"start":131.584,"end":158.935,"text":"好謝謝主委的說明所以在這邊也再次的證明說其實公投不需要綁大選到這樣子目前為止我們中選會照目前的制度反而能夠順利的運行對於選務人員來說也不會有太多的負擔這個是到目前為止這樣的結果人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的不會讓議題互相混淆讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定"},{"start":159.605,"end":185.016,"text":"好謝謝諸位的說明那再來要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題因為其實從台灣的公投法實行到現在已經有21個公投案了那我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的因為其實國際上的這個公民與政治權利國際公約裡面有提到說公投的主文是不應該要有誤導暗示誘惑或是反對等等的內容可是"},{"start":185.516,"end":201.521,"text":"照這個規定我認為在台灣目前的公投的主文一直都有不太順利甚至是有誤導暗示的情況就例如說其實剛通過的剛結束的這個核三研議的公投他的主文是說您是否同意第三核能發電廠"},{"start":202.601,"end":210.229,"text":"經主管機關同意卻安全無疑之後繼續運轉可是我們一直質疑的是五月核關法就已經修法了如果核電廠要提出重啟的研議的申請就是照法律來進行相關的申請這個甚至是藍白修過的法那現在為什麼還要因為"},{"start":221.84,"end":240.691,"text":"說因為因此而可以提出這個公投呢那這個公投結束之後就有學者分析說對於贊成方來說他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力可是當時候我們看到國民黨他們拍的口號是說支持核三研議換回電價穩定用電更安心"},{"start":249.717,"end":265.194,"text":"那這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑說這個真的有在科學的基礎上進行他成本相關的運算嗎包括說他投入的工程啊等等的成本是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益所以我們當時會覺得說這個樣的內容主文的內容真有沒有誤導或是暗示或是誘惑等等的"},{"start":272.381,"end":294.4,"text":"疑慮呢那另外一個更明顯的例子其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投提案人裡面是寫到說您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女是否同意民法的婚姻應該限定在一男一女的結合等等的可是在這樣的主文之後他們後來的宣傳都是寫說這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法"},{"start":295.561,"end":315.303,"text":"所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯到是說中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定的內容的規範或是針對說如果他們這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用或者是有不實的論證我們的政府的權限是有限的"},{"start":316.104,"end":342.912,"text":"那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷"},{"start":343.792,"end":360.397,"text":"那這個是在國際上的例子所以我一直很想知道說在我們台灣這樣的情況下很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性很多有誘導性甚至我認為他的論證都已經是不符合事實的那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊謝謝委員的指教目前我們的這個公投法"},{"start":366.198,"end":391.192,"text":"在第9條的部分是有相關的規定第9條第三項說第一項的主文應該要簡明清楚要客觀中立理由書的產名以及其立場要跟主文一致這是第三項第四項規定說主文跟理由書的文字用詞字數的計算語法及其他相關的事項之辦法有主管機關定制"},{"start":392.012,"end":420.773,"text":"那剛剛委員所提到的尤其是關於誤導的部分其實在我們現行的這個法律規定跟我們的這個辦法裡面是可以得到相當的法源的依據我們可以來做審查的實務上我們也會要求如果發現有不當的情形會要求提案人必須要來補正那補正通過了沒問題補正不通過的話我們就不予受理"},{"start":422.023,"end":447.943,"text":"是啦那当然最后这个和三跟还有像当年的这个反同婚的公投的主文你们都还是让他可以进行到这个公投的程序吗那我们问的是说像后面他们在宣传的内容其实很多都跟主文已经是完全是背离事实甚至是不实的资讯甚至有非常多是误导性的用恐吓的等等那这些你们有办法让他去"},{"start":448.543,"end":459.117,"text":"符合这个原本的主文进行相关的讨论吗如果是我们职务上所明知已经是这个伪造的不实的讯息的话我们是可以要求删除的"},{"start":460.305,"end":484.599,"text":"好那這個就要拜託了因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論當然是要依據議題本身他必須要符合事實然後必須要盡量的讓民眾是得知完整的資訊而不是現在謠言滿天飛大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下你要他進行這個公投的選擇最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的"},{"start":485.379,"end":502.658,"text":"所以就是我最擔心的所以單純的環境是非常重要的如果跟選舉如果加在一起的話那整個議題就失焦了是好 這個就是再拜託主委可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好然後盡量的讓這個選舉的環境是更單純越好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時18分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：有請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。因為前面有非常多位委員，都還是在討論公投綁大選的問題，所以我希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶。其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道邊投票、邊開票會造成非常多選務的問題，那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的臺北市候選人丁守中，他甚至出來說邊投票、邊開票影響選舉的結果，並認為這個現象非常的荒謬。但我也不知道為什麼，當時國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者，結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選。那時候我們也還記得因為投票投到半夜3點半，造成非常多選務人員很辛苦，甚至有過勞的情況，然後還有很多選民因為投不到票，導致很多縣市公投的投票率並沒有增加，反而下降。因為排太久了，很多選民因此沒有辦法投到票而影響他們選舉的權利。其實後來我們把選人跟選事分開，就是希望說民主可以深化，讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題；針對人就好好討論人，所以當時的公投綁大選，在這樣的脈絡之下，2021有這樣的結果，甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選，才有了現在把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度。目前運行到現在，主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：到目前為止，我們沒有發現任何窒礙難行之處，選務的部分也都是相當的順利，所以沒有任何新的狀況需要在這個時候，對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討，我認為沒有這個必要。"],["黃委員捷：好。謝謝主委的說明，所以在這邊也再次的證明其實公投不需要綁大選，到目前為止，我們中選會照現行的制度，反而能夠順利的運行，對於選務人員來說，也不會有太多的負擔，這個是目前為止的結果。"],["李主任委員進勇：對於人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的，不會讓議題互相混淆，讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委的說明。再來，要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題。其實從臺灣的公投法施行到現在已經有21個公投案了，我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的，因為國際上的公民與政治權利公約裡面有提到，公投的主文不應該有誤導、暗示、誘惑或是反對等等的內容，可是照這個規定，我認為目前在臺灣公投的主文，一直都有不太順利，甚至是有誤導、暗示的情況。","例如剛剛結束的核三延役的公投，它的主文是「您是否同意第三核能發電廠經主管機關同意確認無安全疑慮後，繼續運轉？」但我們一直質疑的是5月核管法就已經修法了，如果核電廠要提出重啟、延役的申請，就是照法律進行相關的申請，這個甚至是藍白修過的法，現在為什麼還要因此而可以提出這個公投呢？這個公投結束之後，就有學者分析對於贊成方來說，他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓，並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義，把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力。可是當時候我們看到國民黨，他們拍的口號是「支持核三延役，換回電價穩定，用電更安心」，這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑真的有在科學基礎上進行成本相關的運算嗎？包括說它投入的工程等等的成本，是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益？所以我們當時會覺得，這個主文的內容有沒有誤導、暗示或是誘惑等等的疑慮呢？另外一個更明顯的例子，其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投。提案人寫到您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女，主文是「你是否同意民法婚姻規定應限定在一男一女的結合？」可是在這樣的主文之後，他們後來的宣傳都是寫這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法。","所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯，中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定內容的規範，或是如果這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用，或者是有不實的論證，我們政府的權限是有限的。甚至在國際上有一些案例，例如瑞士的公投主文，還有他們提到公投的手冊，都有非常嚴格的規範，有強調絕對不能有誤導性，也不能有誘導性，甚至聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證，如果它相關資訊是不實的，到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷，這個是在國際上的例子。所以我一直很想知道，我們臺灣在這樣的情況下，很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性，很多有誘導性，甚至我認為它的論證都已經是不符合事實的，那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教，目前我們的公投法在第九條的部分是有相關的規定，第九條第三項說第一項的主文應簡明、清楚、客觀中立；理由書之闡明以及其立場應與主文一致。第四項規定說主文與理由書之文字用詞、字數計算、語法及其他相關事項之辦法，由主管機關定之。剛剛委員所提到的，尤其是關於誤導的部分，其實在我們現行的法律規定跟我們的辦法裡面，是可以得到相當的法源依據，我們可以來做審查的，實務上我們也會要求，如果發現有不當的情形，會要求提案人必須要來補正。補正通過了，沒問題，補正不通過的話，我們就不予受理。"],["黃委員捷：是啦！當然最後這個核三，還有像當年反同婚的公投主文，你們都還是讓它可以進行到公投的程序，那我們問的是說，像後面他們在宣傳的內容，其實很多都跟主文已經完全是背離事實，甚至是不實的資訊，甚至有非常多是誤導性的，用恐嚇的等等，那這一些你們有辦法讓它去符合原本的主文，進行相關的討論嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是我們職務上所明知已經是偽造不實訊息的話，我們是可以要求刪除的。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個就要拜託了，因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論，當然是要依據議題本身，它必須要符合事實，然後必須要儘量讓民眾得知完整的資訊，而不是現在謠言滿天飛，大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下，你要他進行公投的選擇，最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的，這是我最擔心的。"],["李主任委員進勇：所以單純的環境是非常重要的，如果跟選舉扯在一起的時候，那整個議題就失焦了。"],["黃委員捷：是，這個再拜託主委，可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好，然後儘量讓選舉的環境是更單純越好。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委。"],["主席（王委員美惠）：謝謝黃捷委員。","我們請高金素梅委員質詢。","等一下在李柏毅委員質詢後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163876","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163876","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0f68f19fd3c5e70580a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400f642cddcd8afeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:08:27 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跟我現在要做什麼他不是營養餒 為了我養我生的心他是比你們好人 還合金餒你知道我聽到這樣的心 我真的坐在地上 我說人敢愛恨你 沒理性"},{"start":162.725,"end":164.326,"text":"講這個外公的出處來,主委,在這裡本身要幫你探討你的臨時你的臨時在11月13日在剛才你說的中間出沒一個月不一定兩天白天的時候你就已經"},{"start":183.151,"end":188.592,"text":"我希望今天跟你討論的可以雖然你們這個有夠下落 沒夠下落也不知道但問題的存在我們要怎麼去處理像剛才你回答的你們裡面有很緊張的要借領交還要拿的時候未來的美女要選舉"},{"start":212.654,"end":213.975,"text":"這樣會怎樣通常啦 通常如果年底要選舉我們大概在年初的時候就必須要去決定投票的一期投票的一期決定後之前之前有很多丟臉的慷慨 很多講究主委 現在我就是跟你說喔你老公的財務的財産 都留給你媽啦"},{"start":236.817,"end":239.178,"text":"11月13日 再過沒一個月就185年了啦185年的年頭就要決定每年底選舉的日期啦再來重重 大家都會覺得選舉委員會跟中選委選舉幾個月沒贏千萬大家不要這樣想"},{"start":263.892,"end":270.917,"text":"選舉委員會和總選會是要選舉的時候你對選舉,你先要開始安排開始固定去了解他的票帳身體對的安全性,要怎麼處理所以主委,我先要跟你請教說,如果你不進去跟我們行政院的人士如果不來,這要怎麼去"},{"start":295.135,"end":295.155,"text":"撒謊"},{"start":296.653,"end":305.837,"text":"這要怎麼處理是就是委員的關心啦當然我們期待說現在在這邊有辦法很快拿出行動的計劃那立法院這邊我們可以很快來完成這個審查的程序那讓新任的委員可以無縫接軌在11月7日馬上就可以接起來這樣讓全部有辦法正常運作不要出現空窗出現空窗的話真的就是一個國家的危機"},{"start":326.161,"end":328.965,"text":"主委 我覺得有可能空窗的這是很快人的你如果想 今天十月才買的 還有幾天還有到現在的年算那麼久"},{"start":342.93,"end":348.352,"text":"我覺得這種的行政隱私人最近有發生很多事情但是做什麼要想什麼嘛你也知道中選委有的認輸要過程處理像這樣的時候每年我們的委員會要怎麼做還是大家硬硬的乾脆這個後半段的時候跟大家一直加班一直沒空"},{"start":372.689,"end":381.5,"text":"這樣是政治站耶 主委是所以我們知道行政院也很積極的在尋覓人選那我們希望你是覺得有人不敢來還是沒有人要做這我就不了解這你不了解喔"},{"start":392.712,"end":397.197,"text":"好啦 主委 因為我覺得我們立委是很獨一無二啦因為做不好的 做不好的 我們都要拿出來說啦不管什麼都一樣啦因為要讓一個國家進步到好的時候應該要積極去做啦"},{"start":413.874,"end":418.537,"text":"我也鼓勵有可能的人選大家要勇於承擔在國家遇到困難的時候尤其是選舉的環節是很重要的民主基站的工程這個重要性非常的高希望有人願意來擔起這個責任各位 還在這問題我再跟你討論一下"},{"start":438.168,"end":447.813,"text":"你說用它承擔啦我相信大家都要承擔啦但是要承擔的當中說實在有很多無奈的啦真的像剛才說的公投綁大選啦說實在公投綁大選大家都看到說要來選這個候選人啦不知道這個公投要做什麼啦"},{"start":467.402,"end":472.928,"text":"這都會亂了啦你如果分開我今天就是要來選好選贏選好選贏我今天要來選公道是什麼陷阱這次的公道是怎樣的?發生什麼事?"},{"start":484.778,"end":489.161,"text":"就是因為選擇不夠 還已經退役的東西還站出來要公投這不就吃人放的合適 吃人狗狗所以投票都會那麼瘦啦在這個過程當中 我也要跟主委說我們的選務領域 大家很辛苦的但是在我當局以來來說每一個官司"},{"start":516.598,"end":539.784,"text":"他的總幹事 都是他每一個官司長收牌像這個人 我們的爸媽 每一個官司 他的主委我們可以去看人家的父親 人家的嫂子 這是最重要的這更破壞了"},{"start":541.983,"end":545.845,"text":"所以主委,這件事我們是不是要討論我們的中選會是以中選人數還是第三方人數來做不像這樣的時候,北省是要相信什麼?"},{"start":564.861,"end":566.522,"text":"其實過去幾十年 雙武基跟地方政府中間的合作是非常的密切 也非常的順利現在又沒工了 你看現在開的雷槍 主委你聽到你的叫嗎極少數的個案 極少數的個案 當然我們覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":587.091,"end":595.058,"text":"那這個事先要如何的去防治這樣子的一種可能對於選務的傷害這議員我相信大家會特別的注意我認為這個要去注意 要去想想要怎麼去改比較好 雖然你剛才有說什麼我相信你還要有看好說這個問題出來感受 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時8分）主席，請李主委。"],["主席：有請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員你好。"],["王委員美惠：主委你好。早上我有聽到我的同事問說，為什麼要排這個業務報告，是不是內政比你們的業務更重要？在這裡我要澄清一點，因為自從花蓮的災害發生以後，內政部長就衝啊衝、拚啊拚，看要怎麼樣才能讓花蓮的災害降低。今天如果安排內政的業務報告，很多人是要來的，那他們就沒辦法去開會，也沒辦法去花蓮幫忙。大家聽到花蓮發生這些事情的時候，我相信所有的百姓、我所有的同事跟中央政府，大家都非常地難過，今天不是不關心花蓮，我們才召開選舉的業務報告會議，你看，花蓮災害發生的時候，不分黨派，大家都很關心。我覺得說話要憑良心，可以讓花蓮救災方便，我們為什麼要綁手綁腳的，叫他們來這裡？"],["李主任委員進勇：對於召委苦心的安排，我們是非常的感動，現在全國不管是各級政府或是民間，大家全力投入到花蓮的救災裡面，整個內閣團隊幾乎全部都動員了，所以這個時候讓更多的人、讓更多的資源能夠到災區去，這是大家的一個共識。"],["王委員美惠：因為我相信在座很多我的同事都有打電話給部長，部長都說我現在在開會、我現在要做什麼，他不是閒閒的耶！花蓮災害發生的時候，他是比任何人還要急。早上我聽到這些話的時候，我真的坐在那裡說：「人，真的要這麼沒人性嗎？這種話怎麼說得出口？」","主委，在這裡本席要向你探討有關人事的議題，你的任期到11月3日，如你剛才所說的，剩不到一個月，說不定改天排案的時候，你就已經卸任了。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：我也希望今天跟你討論的……雖然你們這個部分有沒有交接下去也不知道，不過存在的問題，我們要怎麼去處理？像剛才你回答的，你們有將近6位任期到了要卸任，明年要選舉要怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員進勇：通常如果年底要選舉，我們大概在年初的時候就必須要去決定投票的日期，投票日期決定之後，有很多前置的籌備工作、很多公告，這些工作……"],["王委員美惠：主委，現在我就是要跟你說，你下個月11月3日就卸任了，11月3日再不到一個月就115年了，115年年初就要決定明年年底選舉的日期。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：再來，大家都會覺得選舉委員會跟中選會，不過是選舉那幾個月要忙而已，大家千萬不要這樣想！選舉委員會跟中選會在要選舉的時候，年底要選舉，年初就要開始安排，開始去了解各地方的票所要設在哪裡、安全性要怎麼處理。主委，所以本席要向你請教，你如果卸任，行政院的人事如果沒銜接上，要怎麼去布局？這要怎麼處理？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的關心，當然，我們期待行政院能儘快提出適當的人選，立法院也能很快地完成審查程序，讓新任的委員可以無縫接軌，在11月4日就可以馬上銜接，讓選務有辦法正常運作，不要出現空窗，出現空窗的話，真的就是一個國家的危機。"],["王委員美惠：主委，我覺得有可能空窗，這是很嚇人的！你想，今天是10月8日，還有幾天？到現在還沒有人選，雖然最近發生很多事情，不過我覺得做什麼要像什麼，你也知道中選會的人事要趕快處理，這樣明年年初要怎麼做？還是大家先閒著，到下半年的時候大家才一直加班一直忙？這樣很悽慘耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們知道行政院也很積極地在尋覓人選，我們希望……"],["王委員美惠：你覺得是有人，但不敢來？還是沒人要做？"],["李主任委員進勇：這我就不了解了。"],["王委員美惠：這你不了解，好啦，主委，我覺得我們立委有監督權，該做好的或有沒做到的，我們都要拿出來講，不管什麼黨都一樣，因為要讓國家更好、更進步，應該要積極去做啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我也鼓勵啦，我也鼓勵可能的人選，大家要勇於承擔啦，在國家遇到困難的時候，尤其是選舉的工作是很重要民主基層的工程，重要性非常的高，希望有人願意來擔起這個責任。"],["王委員美惠：主委，這些問題我再跟你討論一下，你說勇於承擔，我相信大家都要承擔，不過當中實在有很多無奈。像剛才說的公投綁大選，說實在的，公投綁大選大家都看到要來選這個候選人，哪知道公投要投什麼？這樣會亂掉啦，如果分開，我今天就是要來選候選人，或我今天要來選公投是什麼項目……這次公投為什麼投票率這麼低？是他們的宣傳不夠，加上已經退役的東西又拿出來要公投，這不就「食人夠夠」，所以投票率都會比較低啦！我也要跟主委說，選務人員大家很辛苦，長久以來，每一個縣市的總幹事都是縣市長所派的，但是像這次罷免，某一個縣市的主任怎麼可以去開戶政的權限來抄名單？這是確定的，還有判決的！所以主委，這個東西我們是不是要討論？我們地方的選委會是要地方人士？還是第三方的人士來做？不然像這樣的時候，百姓是要相信誰啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：其實過去幾十年，選務機關跟地方政府中間的合作是非常密切，也非常的順利。"],["王委員美惠：現在又不一樣了啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：這次實在是……"],["王委員美惠：你看現在敢開戶政去抄，主委，你聽到會害怕嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：極少數的個案、極少數的個案，當然我們覺得非常的遺憾，這個事先要如何去防制這一種可能對選務的傷害，以後我相信大家會再特別的注意。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得這個要注意，要想想看怎麼去改比較好，雖然你到11月3號，但我相信你還有權利能提這個問題出來檢討，以上。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠召委。","接下來我們請黃捷委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0dbb3665f4a32d8b10a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400f642cddcd8afeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:58:40 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我們請中選會李主委南京上主委"},{"start":12.321,"end":32.387,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想請教您您的任期是到什麼時候11月3號 從沒到這個月您的任期到11月3號那我想依照中選會的組織法第3條委員的任期是4年嘛您已經連任一次所以到11月3號就是您會卸任的時間"},{"start":33.527,"end":60.068,"text":"那當然依照我們這個中選會的組織法也有提出行政院長因為任滿期前三個月提名新任委員這個並不提出缺那中選會現在有十位委員因為有一位委員之前就已經請辭了那其中六位都跟您一樣會在11月3號任期屆滿那請問一下行政院到現在有提名新任的委員嗎"},{"start":61.549,"end":80.141,"text":"我們知道行政院他們很積極在尋找這個適當的人選那什麼時候可以提出來我想也會考慮到我們選務的這個運作所以我們也期待這個案子所以就是還沒嗎他們很積極在尋找適當的人選所以說依照我們中選會的組織法的話"},{"start":84.984,"end":104.401,"text":"委員任滿三個月前也就是8月3號應該就要提出了但到現在都還沒提出的原因您剛說是為了要積極的尋找那如果他到了12月還尋找不到的話那請問這中間的話您11月3號就卸任那12月他如果還找不到的話那請問一下中選會要怎麼來運作"},{"start":106.563,"end":135.747,"text":"我们期待这种情形不会发生那这个可能行政跟立法两院之间大家那行政院到现在都还没有提出是不是为了整个国家民主政治的能够这个完整的运作大家能够互相合作让这个人事案所以对于国家的民主运作能够完善的话应该是要在8月3号之前就要提出嘛但现在都还没有提出所以说呢"},{"start":136.492,"end":152.177,"text":"當然今天您也做了一個今天的報告那接下來我們要審中選會的預算那請問一下您現在所提的報告跟未來新任的主委上來之後如果你們的目標不一致的話那今天的報告算數嗎"},{"start":154.065,"end":167.92,"text":"今天的報告是我在主委的這個任期裡面按照大院所指示的我們所提出的有關業務方面的報告就大大的這個方向所提出的一些說明"},{"start":168.801,"end":194.919,"text":"我想這樣子的一個方向也是經過現在有效的委員會大家所做成的這個決議但是有六位就是馬上要到任了有六位都跟您一樣11月3號也就是說只剩四位有沒有辦法能夠代表未來的委員會他如果依照這個合法的方式能夠做一些政策的調整依照合法的方式的話我也想請教一下那個李主委"},{"start":195.539,"end":205.45,"text":"就是依這個中選會的組織法認滿這個前三個月應該要提名這個新任的委員那這個到底是屬於強制的義務還是努力的義務"},{"start":207.949,"end":235.49,"text":"這個應該有一些空間事實上現在是還沒有提出來所以這樣行政院算違法嗎我不認為它是違法那應該是怎樣我不認為它是違法但是銜接的問題我想行政院那請問一下中選會有發函給行政院要求他應該要立即提出人選嗎這個是行政院長的直言我的意思是說中選會有沒有發函提醒院長"},{"start":237.123,"end":260.456,"text":"應該要在這個8月3號之前提出其實院裡面相當了解這種狀況那你們有發函提醒他們嗎我們不會發函你們不會發函所以院裡相當了解可是就是不提出那所以我可不可以理解成在8月3號之前沒有提出是因為當時有這個726跟823的這個公投的這個我們罷免的這個案子所以他在當時不提出可不可以理解成這樣"},{"start":261.953,"end":277.643,"text":"這個我們不理評論這是我的理解啦但是我認為到現在還沒有提出的話應該要積極的提醒行政院應該是要在8月3號之前就要提出那另外呢再想請教一下這個李主委"},{"start":278.303,"end":303.076,"text":"就是我們依照公職員選舉罷免法第35條跟37條的規定立法委員的選舉區應該每10年檢討一次並在本屆任期前兩年兩個月的人口統計為準那我會請教您這個就是最近我們有在媒體報導看到說好像會提早來檢討這個選區的變更那想請教李主委有沒有這回事"},{"start":305.138,"end":324.49,"text":"这个我们跟内政部之间大家有交换过意见那可能现在的共识是在116年的时候我们会来进行检讨116年会进行检讨就是因为10年检讨一次第一次是96年96年第7任对"},{"start":327.232,"end":346.219,"text":"第七屆再上一次是106年所以下一次是106年所以你們現在會依表定的時間就是106年的11月左右要提出這個當時任期前兩年兩個月的人口數所以是依表定的目前的2027年的時間是嗎"},{"start":351.485,"end":362.074,"text":"116年我們會開始啟動檢討因為上一次是106年是這樣所以還是會依照表定的時間沒有錯那所以呢依照這樣子的話可能就是會在2027年啟動檢討然後在20大概三"},{"start":366.598,"end":392.995,"text":"2029年11月应该适用到第13届对 就是等于2032年那一届现在11届 12届 13届就是2032年的届所以目前你们大概还是依照我们的法律规定的我们按照既定的行程法定的行程就10年检讨一次好 谢谢 谢谢李主委然后最后要请教您的就是这个公投的部分因为其实现在很多的民众都希望能够公投绑大选"},{"start":395.837,"end":417.55,"text":"在新國會智庫也有做一個民調就是有高達66.3%的民眾是支持要公投綁大選當然不外乎就是希望能夠節省我們的公帑能夠節省我們的選務的作業經費尤其是今年的一岸的公投綁大選就公投和三演繹就花了10億多那如果能夠在跟大選綁在一起的話這筆錢勢必一定能夠節省很多"},{"start":421.773,"end":425.877,"text":"所以現在大概大家都在探討這樣的一個時間那當然剛剛我有聽到主委在講說2018年的這個公投延宕造成我們整個的這個因為選務的工作會延長時間所以建議不綁大選可是"},{"start":439.858,"end":455.519,"text":"事實上有43.2%的民眾認為是中選會沒有規劃周延才會導致當年的一個亂象所以這個部分的話我覺得可能我們中選會要好好的來檢討一下既然民意所趨勢公投綁大選"},{"start":457.031,"end":474.167,"text":"應該來好好的檢討是不是要恢復過去這樣尤其我們剛剛也可以看到這個投票率你看我們以往如果公投綁大選大概都可以到五成五以上但這一次核三研議的這個公投在8月23提出這個它的投票率才29.53"},{"start":476.249,"end":497.117,"text":"那也就是說未來如果公投不綁大選事實上公投案要成案其實相對的都非常的不容易事實也是這樣所以說為什麼民眾期待是能夠公投綁大選第一個能夠充分的展現民意第二個也能夠節省公帑節省不必要的浪費那這是我想這是民眾大家普遍的一個"},{"start":497.897,"end":521.905,"text":"想法那當然在這邊因為時間的關係我也請主委要好好的演你這個公投綁大選如果說民意的話民意調查固然可以參考但是正式的公民投票在2021年的這個公投綁大選的公民投票他是沒有通過的那這個民意應該是更清楚就是那當時有公投綁大選嗎"},{"start":524.093,"end":553.076,"text":"就是公投没有过嘛公投有没有绑大选就没有嘛当然不会过如果公投绑大选这个提案就一定会过当时是因为公投没有绑大选所以他的投票率才41%当然不会过啊大家痛在心里那个心都还痛主委我觉得你导果为因啦所以这个部分我觉得公投绑大选如果可以好好的充分展现民意才是民众所需求的我站在选务机关的立场我要代表我全国的选务同仁他们不愿意"},{"start":553.957,"end":567.247,"text":"在蒙受那麼大的一個災難我站在人民的立場我代表全國人民告訴您人民希望的是公投綁大選除了選務人員的心聲之外我們代表的是全國人民選務人員很辛苦我知道但是我們代表的是全國人民請您尊重民意 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時58分）謝謝主席，請中選會李主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委好。主委，我想請教您，您的任期是到什麼時候？"],["李主任委員進勇：11月3號，剩不到一個月。"],["許委員宇甄：您的任期到11月3號嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["許委員宇甄：依照中選會組織法第三條，委員的任期是四年，你已經連任一次，所以11月3號就是你會卸任的時間。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：依照中選會組織法，行政院院長應於委員任滿三個月前提名新任委員並補提出缺，中選會現在有十位委員，因為有一位委員之前就已經請辭，其中六位都跟你一樣會在11月3號任期屆滿。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["許委員宇甄：請問行政院到現在有提名新任的委員嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們知道行政院很積極在尋找適當的人選，至於什麼時候可以提出來，我想也會考慮到選務的運作，我們也期待這個案子能夠儘早定案。"],["許委員宇甄：所以就是還沒提出嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：他們很積極在尋找適當的人選。"],["許委員宇甄：依照中選會組織法的話，應於委員任滿三個月前提出，也就是8月3號就應該要提出了，但到現在都還沒提出的原因，您剛剛說是為了要積極的尋找，如果他到了12月還尋找不到的話，請問這中間該怎麼辦？您11月3號就卸任，如果他到12月還找不到的話，請問一下中選會要怎麼運作？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們期待這種情形不會發生，可能行政跟立法兩院之間，大家是不是為了……"],["許委員宇甄：行政院到現在都還沒有提出。"],["李主任委員進勇：為了整個國家民主政治能夠完整的運作，大家是不是能夠互相合作，讓這個人事案能夠儘早定案。"],["許委員宇甄：如果要讓國家的民主運作能夠完善的話，應該是在8月3號之前就要提出，但現在都還沒有提出。當然今天您也做了報告，接下來我們要審中選會的預算，請問您現在所提的報告跟未來新任的主委上來之後，如果你們的目標不一致的話，今天的報告算數嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：今天的報告是我在主委的任期裡面，按照大院的指示提出有關業務方面的報告，就大的方向所提出的一些說明，我想這樣子的方向也是經過現在有效的委員會大家所作成的決議，應該在未來……"],["許委員宇甄：但是有六位馬上就要到任了，有六位都跟您一樣在11月3日任期屆滿，也就是到時只剩四位，有沒有辦法能夠代表原來的中選會？"],["李主任委員進勇：未來的委員會如果依照合法的方式能夠做一些政策的調整……"],["許委員宇甄：依照合法方式的話，我也想請教一下李主委，依中選會組織法，任滿三個月前應該要提名新任的委員，這個到底是屬於強制的義務，還是努力的義務？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個應該有一些空間，事實上現在是還沒有提出來。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以這樣行政院算違法嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不認為他是違法。"],["許委員宇甄：那應該是怎樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不認為他是違法，但是銜接的問題，我想行政院他們一定也是非常在乎。"],["許委員宇甄：請問中選會有發函給行政院，要求他應該要立即提出人選嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這是行政院長的職權。"],["許委員宇甄：我的意思是說，中選會有沒有發函提醒院長應該要在8月3號之前提出？"],["李主任委員進勇：其實院裡面相當了解這種狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：你們有發函提醒他嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不會發函。"],["許委員宇甄：你們不會發函？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：所以院裡面相當了解，可是就是不提出，所以我可不可以理解成在8月3號之前沒有提出，是因為當時有726及823公投罷免的案子，所以他在當時不提出？可不可以理解成這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個我們不予評論。"],["許委員宇甄：這是我的理解啦！但是我認為到現在還沒有提出的話，應該要積極的提醒行政院，應該要在8月3號之前就要提出。","另外想請教一下李主委，依照公職人員選舉罷免法第三十五條及第三十七條的規定，立法委員的選舉區應該每十年檢討一次，並以本屆任期前二年二個月的人口統計為準。我會請教您這個問題是因為最近我們看到媒體報導說好像會提早來檢討選區的變更，想請教李主委有沒有這回事？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個我們跟內政部之間有交換過意見，可能現在的共識是在116年的時候會進行檢討。"],["許委員宇甄：116年會進行檢討，也就是2027年。"],["李主任委員進勇：因為十年檢討一次，第一次是在96年第7屆的時候，上一次是106年，所以下一次是116年。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你們現在會依表定的時間，也就是在116年11月左右會提出當時任期前二年二個月的人口數，所以是依目前表定的2027年的時間是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：116年我們會開始啟動檢討。"],["許委員宇甄：因為上一次是106年嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：所以還是會依照表定的時間？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["許委員宇甄：依照這樣子的話，可能就是會在2027年啟動檢討，然後大概在2029年11月……"],["李主任委員進勇：應該適用到第13屆吧！"],["許委員宇甄：對，就是等於2032年那一屆嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：現在第11屆嘛，第12屆、13屆……"],["許委員宇甄：就是2032年那屆嘛，所以目前你們大概還是依照我們法律規定的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們按照既定的行程。"],["許委員宇甄：好。"],["李主任委員進勇：法定的行程就是10年檢討一次。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝李主委。最後要請教您的是公投的部分，因為其實現在很多的民眾都希望能夠公投綁大選，尤其我們看到在新國會智庫也有做一個民調，有高達66.3%的民眾是支持要公投綁大選，當然不外乎就是希望能夠節省公帑、節省選務的作業經費，尤其是今年一案的公投綁大選──核三延役的公投，就花了十一億多，如果能夠跟大選綁在一起的話，這筆錢勢必能夠節省很多，所以現在大家都在探討這樣的時間。當然，剛剛我聽到主委在講說2018年的公投延宕，造成整個選務的工作時間會延長，所以建議不綁大選，可是事實上有43.2%的民眾認為是中選會沒有規劃周延，才會導致當年的亂象，所以這個部分我覺得中選會要好好地來檢討一下，既然民意所趨是公投綁大選，應該來好好地檢討是不是要恢復過去這樣的方式。","尤其，我們也可以看到剛剛這個投票率，你看，我們以往如果公投綁大選，大概都可以到五成五以上，但這一次在8月23日的核三延役公投，投票率才29.53%，也就是說，未來如果公投不綁大選，事實上公投案要成案，相對的也都非常地不容易，事實也是這樣，所以為什麼民眾期待的是能夠公投綁大選？第一個，能夠充分地展現民意。第二個，也能夠節省公帑、節省不必要的浪費。我想這是民眾普遍的想法，當然在這邊因為時間的關係，我也請主委要好好地研擬公投綁大選。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，民意調查固然可以參考，但是正式的公民投票，在2021年公投綁大選的公民投票，它是沒有通過的，這個民意應該是更清楚的。"],["許委員宇甄：當時有公投綁大選嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：就是公投沒有過嘛。"],["許委員宇甄：公投有沒有綁大選？就沒有嘛！當然不會過。"],["李主任委員進勇：公投綁大選，你完全把它……"],["許委員宇甄：如果公投綁大選，這個提案就一定會過。"],["李主任委員進勇：那不一定。"],["許委員宇甄：當時是因為公投沒有綁大選，所以它的投票率才41%，當然不會過啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：大家都痛在心裡，那個心都很沉痛的。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有，主委，我覺得你倒果為因啦！所以這個部分我覺得公投綁大選如果可以好好地充分展現民意，才是民眾所需求的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我站在選務機關的立場，我要代表全國的選務同仁，他們不願意再蒙受那麼大的一個災難。"],["許委員宇甄：我站在人民的立場，我代表全國人民告訴您，人民希望的是公投綁大選，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：除了選務人員的心聲之外，就是公投跟大選之間的……"],["許委員宇甄：我們代表的是全國人民，選務人員很辛苦，我知道，但是我們代表的是全國人民，請你尊重民意，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：這也是傷害了人民對於公投正當的意見表達。"],["主席（李委員柏毅代）：謝謝許宇甄委員。","接下來我們請王美惠召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163874","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163874","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff08b5de169687ba1d90a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:46:53 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我們正在選務機關的立場2018年的選務的亂象大家記憶猶新而且是非常沉痛的一個記憶也因此在2021年的四大公投裡面有一個公投就是又要把這個公投跟大選要綁在一起但是那個公投案並沒有通過"},{"start":188.459,"end":204.953,"text":"沒有通過的意義就是表示說人民還是很在乎並不支持這樣子的一種做法那現在各種條件是不是有所改變是不是到了要再重新檢討的一個程度但是問題選務的問題我們是要讓一個選務"},{"start":210.057,"end":234.375,"text":"委員會來去處理吧不是在2018年到現在還在說這個問題所以我們可以在檢討後做不一樣的改進措施所以這個亂象完全沒有辦法改善嗎還有我們投票的目的就是變民還是因為便宜你行事"},{"start":235.376,"end":240.137,"text":"就好這樣子的話你覺得說在2018年現在你還要拿出來再去講這樣子是真的是傷害人民嗎選務的考量是其中之一但是並不是全部對但是我們還必須要考慮你曉得我們歷年在公投的就是說我們的票率是多少嗎你看"},{"start":259.841,"end":269.488,"text":"我們在公投的時候在公投法在2003年的就是年底立法在2004年年底正式實施全國性的公投第一到第二的兩個案件在2004年與總統選舉同日選舉投票率逾45%2028年我們也是全國性公投"},{"start":289.463,"end":292.467,"text":"與立委選舉同日執行我們的投票率就是26%還有在2008年同年我們叫五到六案全國性公投我們也與總統一起執行"},{"start":304.464,"end":324.757,"text":"投票率也過了35%在2018年我們也是全國性公投我們在從第七到第十六屆以九合一地方選舉也同日執行十項公投裡面我們投票率就是54%"},{"start":328.099,"end":351.233,"text":"1%到55.89%之間在2021年也是我們的17到20案跟我們的公投脫鉤後呢單獨公投投票率也是11%左右今年剛結束的河山研議公投投票率"},{"start":352.193,"end":371.666,"text":"僅得29.53%越來越低請問我們的主委你覺得投票率低是傷害民主還是實踐憲法主權在還是我們民主的表現"},{"start":372.878,"end":402.078,"text":"投不投票这是公民的自由那一个公投案能不能够吸引我现在讲的是你的改善跟工作的效果一个公投案能不能够让选民愿意站出来来表示他的意见你要看选民对于这个公投的议题他是否感到必要他是否有兴趣是否跟他的生活有密切的关系所以不能够把这个问题"},{"start":402.518,"end":417.243,"text":"跟單純的跟選舉綁在一起來看這是第一點第二點公投跟選舉綁在一起會混亂了這個投票的一個焦點因為選舉的議題你把人民都是傻的什麼混亂"},{"start":422.245,"end":433.174,"text":"现在就是你们的工作混乱你们的工作要懂得怎么样去排序怎么解决问题你把所有的事丢给人民什么混乱没有什么叫做混乱是安排我们的制度跟程序如果你说这样子的混乱的话我再问你历年来的公投选务花费是多少"},{"start":450.649,"end":453.972,"text":"我們要是要怎麼樣去為我們的國家最近這一次立法院送過來的案子就是河山炎疫的問題這個案子就花了11億4千萬所以你們就是沒有綁在一起才要亂花錢也達到這樣子的為我們的國家要去省錢"},{"start":473.24,"end":482.042,"text":"要達到的工作效率但是你沒有解決工作效率你還要把國家的錢來去花費對啊我就問你說公投選務花費多少嘛但是我要問你這個問題公投選務現在歷年來花費了是多少"},{"start":491.865,"end":494.607,"text":"歷年那太久了太久了所以你開情的面連眼睛都不眨一下我們國家的錢都是納稅的錢你要的範圍是不是可以來給一個公文我們根據你的公文再發函回給你"},{"start":506.815,"end":511.318,"text":"我現在告訴你啦我們選我們呢 據我們的中選會就是在向媒體說2018年我們的公投花費15億當時公投案雖然是有死案"},{"start":522.405,"end":546.925,"text":"但因為跟選舉綁在一起 估計一案約1.5億在2021年 我們的與大選脫鉤後呢四個案公投 需要費用就是花了13億多就是估計當次獨立進行的公投每一案平均花費就是3億多啦"},{"start":549.249,"end":569.177,"text":"所以今年我們核三原液討入我們的公投是要的就是花費已經11億所以不可否認的是說公投合併全國的大選才能實踐民主又兼顧節省的成本"},{"start":569.757,"end":573.779,"text":"我們是要跟你講的是說我們為了國家你們的工作也要說要去預算的成本還有效率我們講的是這個所以我們希望大家來支持我們的台灣民眾黨黨團有建議就是現行公民投票的舉行"},{"start":594.406,"end":616.864,"text":"於全國性的選舉脫鉤嚴重阻礙人民行使直接的民權還有為了打破鳥籠的公投實踐我們的憲法主權在民之原則我們希望我們的公投公民投票法第23條"},{"start":619.366,"end":635.782,"text":"文裡面的修正草案民定主管機構對於公民投票案公告成立後一個月起以六個月內進行公民投票該期間內有全國性的選舉時應該"},{"start":638.924,"end":660.824,"text":"就是该选举同日举行我们会努力来推动修法通过我们希望的是这样才我们要去评估还有我们要的人力物力我们都要去评估我们人民要照我们政府的规定可以让我讲两句话吗"},{"start":661.308,"end":666.97,"text":"但是我們要花那麼多錢還有就是浪費那麼多人力因為時間的關係我們主席已經站出來了已經站起來了給一句第一句話第一句話就是委員剛剛所做的這些論述"},{"start":679.554,"end":679.914,"text":"我覺得還有許多許多的盲點"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時46分）有請中選會主委。"],["主席：我們請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主席、各位同仁，大家好。首先感謝……不是感謝啦，很感嘆，馬太鞍堰塞湖溢流潰堤花蓮光復鄉，造成慘重的災情，到現在已經兩個星期了，災區還有很多地方需要救災，當地受災的災民有需要，但是現在是一團亂，不知道你們有沒有到現場，堰塞湖的紅色警戒還沒有解除，要不要遷村？還有很多問題大家都感到「霧煞煞」，中央災害應變中心指揮官內政部是受到我們內政委員會監督的主要單位，但是第一天上班卻沒有看到這個議題的安排，即內政部的業務報告，反而現在優先排序的是中選會，現在是選務比救災更重要嗎？是嗎？還有，我們的內政部長還在那邊「呵呵呵呵」，是魔笑的聲音，還是苦笑？還是我們人民更苦？所以今天找你來問我也不知道是什麼原因，還是選後來檢討、罷免後來檢討？","所以回到今天的主題，要請教一下李主委你對公投綁大選的看法，因為你在媒體說為了避免2018年的選務亂象再次重演、傷害民主，還是傾向維持現在的制度，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，我們站在選務機關的立場，2018年的選務亂象大家記憶猶新，而且是一個非常沉痛的記憶，也因此在2021年的四大公投裡面，有一個公投就是又要把公投跟大選綁在一起，但是那個公投案並沒有通過，其意義就表示人民還是很在乎，並不支持這樣子的一種做法，現在各種條件是不是有所改變？是不是到了要再重新檢討的程度？我們認為大家必須要深思。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是選務的問題，我們是要讓選舉委員會去處理，不是從2018年到現在還在說這個問題，我們可以在檢討後做不一樣的改進措施，這個亂象完全沒有辦法改善嗎？我們投票的目的就是便民，還是為了你便宜行事就好？這樣子的話，你覺得從2018年到現在，你還要拿出來再去講，這樣子是真的傷害人民、傷害民主嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：選務的考量是其中之一，但是並不是全部，我們還必須要考慮……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是你曉得我們歷年在公投的投票率是多少嗎？你看我們在公投的時候，公投法在2003年年底立法，在2004年年底也正式實施全國性的公投，第1到第2兩個案件，在2004年與總統選舉同日選舉，投票率45%；2008年也是全國性公投，與立委選舉同日舉行，投票率就是26%；還有在2008年同年，第5到第6案全國性公投，也與總統一起舉行，投票率也過了35%；在2018年也是全國性公投，從第7到第16案，與九合一地方選舉同日舉行，10項公投裡面，我們的投票率就是54.51%到55.89%之間；在2021年第17到第20案，跟公投脫勾後，單獨公投投票率是41%左右；今年剛結束的核三延役公投，投票率僅29.53%，越來越低。","請問主委，你覺得投票率低是傷害民主還是實踐憲法主權？還是我們民主的表現？"],["李主任委員進勇：投不投票這是公民的自由，一個公投案能不能夠吸引……"],["麥委員玉珍：現在講的是你的改善跟工作的效率。"],["李主任委員進勇：一個公投案能不能夠讓選民願意站出來表示他的意見，你要看選民對於這個公投的議題是否感到必要、他是否有興趣、是否跟他的生活有密切的關係，所以不能夠把這個問題單純的跟選舉綁在一起來看，這是第一點。","第二點，公投跟選舉綁在一起會混亂投票的焦點，因為選舉的議題跟公投的議題……"],["麥委員玉珍：你當人民都當作傻的？什麼混亂？現在就是你們的工作混亂，你們的工作要懂得怎麼樣去排序、怎麼解決問題，你把所有的……"],["李主任委員進勇：選民不是……"],["麥委員玉珍：你把所有的都是丟給人民，什麼混亂？沒有什麼叫做混亂。"],["李主任委員進勇：議題會失焦、議題會失焦。"],["麥委員玉珍：是安排我們的制度跟程序……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個大家心知肚明。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果你說這樣子是混亂的話，我再問你，歷年來的公投選務花費是多少？"],["李主任委員進勇：那太多案子了。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們要怎麼樣去為我們的國家……"],["李主任委員進勇：最近這一次立法院送過來的案子就是核三延役的問題，這個案子就花了11億4,000萬。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們就是沒有綁在一起才要亂花錢，也達到這樣子的……我們為我們的國家要去省錢，要達到工作效率，但是你沒有解決工作效率，你還要把國家的錢拿去花費……"],["李主任委員進勇：一個選舉制度的調整必須要非常審慎。"],["麥委員玉珍：我就問你公投選務花費多少嘛，我就是要問你這個問題，公投選務歷年來花費了多少？"],["李主任委員進勇：歷年那太久了，而且……"],["麥委員玉珍：太久了？所以你花錢連眼睛都不眨一下，我們國家的錢都是納稅人的錢……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，委員你要的範圍是不是可以給一個公文，我們根據你的公文再發函回給你。"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在告訴你，中選會向媒體說2018年我們的公投花費15億，雖然當時的公投案有十案，但因為跟選舉綁在一起，估計一案約1.5億。在2021年與大選脫鉤後，四個公投案所需費用就花了十三億多，估計當次獨立進行的公投每一案平均花費三億多，而今年核三延役的公投，需要的花費已經11億，所以不可否認的是，公投合併全國的大選才能實踐民主又兼顧節省成本。我們要跟你講的是，為了國家，你們的工作也要考量到預算成本以及效率，我們講的是這個，所以希望大家支持我們的提案，台灣民眾黨黨團有鑑於現行公民投票的舉行與全國性的選舉脫鉤，嚴重阻礙人民行使直接民權，還有為了打破鳥籠公投，實踐我們憲法主權在民之原則，我們希望在公民投票法第二十三條條文的修正草案當中，明定主管機關於公民投票案公告成立後一個月起，於六個月內舉行公民投票，該期間內有全國性的選舉時，應該與該選舉同日舉行。我們會努力來推動修法通過，我們要去評估，包括所需的人力、物力，我們都要去評估，人民要照我們政府的規定……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，可以讓我講兩句話嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們要花那麼多錢，還有浪費那麼多人力……"],["李主任委員進勇：可以讓我講兩句話嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：因為時間的關係，主席已經站起來了。"],["主席：主委，會後再跟他講。"],["李主任委員進勇：主席，兩句話就好。第一句話就是委員剛剛所做的這些論述，我覺得還有許多盲點，這是第一點。第二句話……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果你覺得是盲點，你要來說明，還有書面說明……"],["主席：聽主席說啦！時間到了，會後再回答。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝麥玉珍委員的質詢。","接下來請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff08bd5db73776c3c0c0a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:38:45 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對吧"},{"start":114.11,"end":129.164,"text":"那當超過50%的門檻他也是最多數相對多數他也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻"},{"start":133.956,"end":146.92,"text":"我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說他違反了憲法規定的方向那當然他就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情他真的有抵觸憲法嗎他實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管他有沒有超過絕對多數他都是"},{"start":155.683,"end":182.521,"text":"得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有了解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎"},{"start":184.201,"end":200.572,"text":"這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前是這樣40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字"},{"start":202.293,"end":223.998,"text":"今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛招致很多的憲政僵局啦很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎"},{"start":225.339,"end":233.589,"text":"我個人啦我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來"},{"start":234.926,"end":262.215,"text":"他的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制"},{"start":262.657,"end":289.678,"text":"但沒關係這個題目反正才剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛"},{"start":290.511,"end":318.633,"text":"那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志龍委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候花了四百多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花兩百多萬"},{"start":319.352,"end":344.575,"text":"兩百多萬 花了這麼多錢 效果怎麼樣目前已經上線 有試案正在使用正在使用嘛 那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是 你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解 但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制 變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到 因為我們是一個獨立機關 所以要等"},{"start":345.39,"end":374.967,"text":"那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想"},{"start":375.632,"end":403.207,"text":"那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討它難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛"},{"start":403.666,"end":422.616,"text":"我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了"},{"start":423.993,"end":438.452,"text":"我们就不方便再去做这个工作因为这个会被误解会被误读为这个本席也不是不能理解因为其实新闻大概都有露出就是说他们还是采取传统的要去设立联署站等等那这些东西其实"},{"start":439.013,"end":460.12,"text":"到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署"},{"start":462.509,"end":476.851,"text":"你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時38分）謝謝主席，李主委有請。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。剛剛你說憲法有明文規定，我們的總統選制是一輪相對多數決，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我的理解，這是憲法增修條文第二條第一項的規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二條第一項是怎麼寫的？"],["李主任委員進勇：第二條第一項，我整個唸出來……"],["牛委員煦庭：「總統、副總統候選人應聯名登記，在選票上同列一組圈選，以得票最多之一組為當選。」對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：大部分在討論法律的修正會不會牴觸憲法，在討論憲政爭議的時候，法律會不會牴觸憲法，也就是跟憲法走向是相背這樣的概念。如果是二輪，也就是要求過半才能當選，多一個門檻的時候，他會不會是選票上面最多數的一組？你聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：對不起。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是如果今天是二輪投票，或者是一輪投票就要當選，他就要得到過半的票數，如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數，他會不會是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組？會不會？一定會嘛！選總統時拿過半的票，就是一定會比其他人多，對不對？那是不是符合憲法增修條文中，得票最多的一組為當選，請問是有牴觸還是沒有牴觸？"],["李主任委員進勇：憲法增修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求得票的門檻……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你講得很好，它並沒有要求一定要這樣，對不對？但是當是這樣的時候，符不符合憲法的規定？憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選，對吧？當超過50%的門檻下是最多數，相對多數下也是最多數，都沒有違反憲法的規定，應該是這樣理解吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以不能說沒有達到二分之一以上，沒有絕對多數的話，就不算當選，因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛問你，大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否牴觸嘛！也就是違反了憲法規定的方向，當然當中一個就是違憲，沒有辦法去做處理，但這件事情真的有牴觸憲法嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：實際上可能會有超過，會有絕對的多數，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！不管有沒有超過絕對多數，他都是得票最多的一組嘛！所以其實是沒有牴觸的問題，好，沒關係，這是法律見解……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，把它訂為門檻就會有牴觸的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個是法律見解的問題，你也不是大法官，我也不是大法官，沒關係……"],["李主任委員進勇：好，沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少？主委有瞭解嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我目前手上沒有這個資料。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，大概有40個左右的國家是採取總統人民直選，那你知道多少是用絕對多數，多少用相對多數嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：相關的資料我們還要再整理。"],["牛委員煦庭：目前世界上40個國家裡面，只有9個國家是採取相對多數，包含中華民國在內，其他的國家包含法國、芬蘭、奧地利、葡萄牙、波蘭、羅馬尼亞、捷克、斯洛伐克、巴西、智利等等，都是採取兩輪多數制。今天大家去討論這個事情，無非現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突，招致很多的憲政僵局。很多人在談兩輪投票會不會增加大量的選務成本以及大家會非常麻煩等等，但是你想想看，因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決，難道不會給國家、社會帶來更大的成本嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：要解決這些困境、要掙脫出來，它的方式其實是非常多的，在總統選制部分的改變，是不是足以改變目前朝野之間對立的狀況，我個人認為是還有很多地方須要努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，這畢竟是你的個人意見……"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法增修條文第二條第一項的規定，但是憲法第四十六條也有規定「總統、副總統之選舉，以法律定之。」但沒關係，這個題目反正才剛開始，我們也不要在這個場合占用太多的時間，我還是要問一些選務相關的。","我要問的是這段時間，除了立法院之前提核能發電的延役公投之外，還有4個由公民團體提出的公民投票，它在內容上面相對單純，其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果，所以希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：講到公民投票就講到連署嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：講到連署，大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署，剛剛張智倫委員也有關心這個題目。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問我們國家建置電子連署這一套設備，總共花了多少資源？幕僚單位要不要補充說明一下？"],["葉高級分析師志成：當初在建置罷免的時候花了四百多萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有啦！我問公投啦！"],["葉高級分析師志成：公投的話是花兩百多萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩百多萬？"],["葉高級分析師志成：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：花了這麼多錢，效果怎麼樣？"],["葉高級分析師志成：目前已經上線，有4案正在使用。"],["牛委員煦庭：正在使用，那使用的結果怎麼樣？你們有沒有稍微觀察一下，雖然你們當然不能干涉連署的內容，這個部分本席完全理解，但問題是既然有提供這樣的一個機制來便民等等，那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣？"],["葉高級分析師志成：應該等到……因為我們是一個獨立機關，所以要等領銜人送件來之後才會知道送來的件數有多少，因為這只是一個連署的工具而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：只是一個工具而已？那以你們目前可以掌握的資料跟瞭解，你覺得大家有很充分地在使用這個機制嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不方便主動地去瞭解連署的狀況，但是從媒體報導，我們當然也要去關心。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["李主任委員進勇：好像進行的速度不盡理想。"],["牛委員煦庭：那原因是什麼呢？你們有沒有去做了解？其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦，當然你不要去干預連署，但是你說有這樣一個機制可以去應用，我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的，即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同，但是我覺得工具就是工具，而且未來都可以參酌，既然都花錢去建置這個東西，你本來就要去檢討，它難得有在實踐的情況之下你要去了解它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導，加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑，你可以方便去連署，希望大家多多利用，但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了，我們就不方便再去做這個工作，因為這會被誤解，會被誤讀為我們支持。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦，本席也不是不能理解，因為新聞大概都有露出啦，就是說他們還是採取傳統的、要去設立連署站等等，這些東西到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限，反正結束之後，我是希望你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整，這到底好用、不好用，不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們目前大概還有一個進階的作法還在研議之中，就是用行動的連署。"],["牛委員煦庭：你做好完整的幾個案例調查跟檢討之後，再去思考調整的方案，本席做一個提醒，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化和節省社會成本上面，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["主席：我們感謝牛煦庭委員質詢。","我們請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163872","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff0ac45539fb02f7dde0a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400e704fec7cb43ff685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:31:46 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主委所以你的看法跟我是"},{"start":198.111,"end":219.69,"text":"比較相近這是就執行面來講至於政策面是不是有這個有沒有這個必要不不不 主委我不認為這叫就執行面這是法理面我剛剛就跟你講這都是法律的規定就法理的部分就政策的部分就政治的部分這部分我們是沒有評論"},{"start":221.972,"end":225.697,"text":"因為我們中選會其實是一個選政的單位而已我們選務 我們主要辦理選務"},{"start":229.171,"end":251.423,"text":"對啦 選政選務其實分開所以我今天問你這個問題我只是覺得說這個東西其實也要讓全國民眾知道就是說關於總統的選舉方式你總統副總統選舉罷免法是規定他的執行面 他的選務他的怎麼樣去做而已吧 對不對"},{"start":252.543,"end":275.375,"text":"是不是這樣基本的精神還是必須要符合憲法的規定對啦所以我們的總統、副總統選舉罷免法裡面它規定的大部分就是如何去選舉然後選務什麼什麼然後一些相關的規定而已吧是對不對是對嘛所以如果要二輪制"},{"start":276.115,"end":286.988,"text":"我認為是要修憲啦跟縣市走漲你要去修改它變成二輪制這個是不同的層級呀我不知道主委你的看法我同意是不同的層級對嘛所以我覺得這個"},{"start":293.629,"end":312.599,"text":"二輪制有好有壞但我個人認為現在台灣我比較擔心的是其實在國外很多二輪制的投票到第二輪變成換票聯盟然後交易聯盟我不知道主委有沒有看過這些相關的報導"},{"start":314.585,"end":343.963,"text":"那看過對啊在二輪的時候就互相利益交換我跟你換部長我跟你換什麼很多都是這樣我覺得在台灣我覺得第一個台灣面積小那我們的人口數也才2300多萬人在現在做這個事情我個人認為是要值得考量的我不知道主委你的看法我們會傾聽各界不同的聲音"},{"start":346.035,"end":361.48,"text":"其實啊 主委我必須要跟你說有沒有改 有沒有什麼的其實跟你們中選會啊也沒有任何的你可以去做決定你可以去那個因為你只是"},{"start":363.101,"end":380.379,"text":"人家怎么规定你怎么做而已吧如果是修宪的话我们还要办公民复权对 你就是那些执行面嘛对不对所以我今天特别问你这个也不是找你麻烦我只是会觉得说这个东西要让"},{"start":381.64,"end":402.672,"text":"大家知道这已经到修宪的程度了这不是一般修法主要的目的是在这里我不知道主委你的看法是不是如此我想这个是一个非常牵扯到国家的体制非常重要的一个议题全民都应该会关心好 谢谢主委谢谢委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時31分）請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我不知道最近你有沒有注意到一則新聞，法國新總理勒克努（Sebastien Lecornu）又辭職了，他上任不到一個月的時間辭職了，我不知道主委有沒有注意到這個新聞？"],["李主任委員進勇：我有看到新聞報導。"],["張委員宏陸：法國跟我們臺灣的政治制度很多人把它拿來相提並論，有點類似又不全然。法國總統是絕對多數決吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：法國總統選舉是……"],["張委員宏陸：是絕對多數決吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：兩輪。"],["張委員宏陸：不一定兩輪，他如果第一輪就過半了……"],["李主任委員進勇：對，那當然！"],["張委員宏陸：所以在選舉來講，它應該是絕對多數決，一定要過半絕對多數，是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是嘛！但是法國的總統也有解散國會的權力吧？對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：他是可以解散國會的！現在臺灣有很多人在說臺灣的總統選舉要不要兩輪制？我不知道主委有沒有聽到或看到這個新聞？"],["李主任委員進勇：最近也有看到媒體上有部分的討論。"],["張委員宏陸：我個人是覺得，我們先從法理上來講，有關我們的總統選舉，憲法是不是有明文規定總統選舉該如何選舉？有沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：憲法增修條文第二條第一項有明文的規定，我們是採取一輪相對多數制。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：上面就白紙黑字有寫嘛！所以如果要改變總統選舉制度，你認為要不要修憲？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這個解釋上應該是沒什麼問題，因為憲法的明文規定在那個地方，不能夠違反憲法的規定，直接從總統副總統選罷法去修改，這樣是跟憲法的規定有違的。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你的看法跟我的看法是一樣的。反過來說，單一首長制，如果縣市首長要改成兩輪絕對多數，是不是不用修憲了？"],["李主任委員進勇：關於縣市首長的部分，憲法並沒有明文規定。"],["張委員宏陸：對。"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是在一般公職人員選罷法有相關規定的話，我們就按照這個規定來執行。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛！主委，所以你的看法跟我是比較相近。"],["李主任委員進勇：這是就執行面來講，至於政策面是不是有這個必要……"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不，主委，我不認為這叫執行面，這是法理面喔！我剛剛就跟你講，這就是法律的規定喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：對，就法理的部分、就政策的部分、就政治的部分，我們是沒有評論。"],["張委員宏陸：因為中選會其實是一個選政的單位而已啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們主要是辦理選務。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！選政、選務其實是分開的，所以今天問你這個問題，我只是覺得這個部分其實也要讓全國民眾知道，關於總統的選舉方式，總統副總統選舉罷免法是規定執行面及選務怎麼樣去做而已吧？對不對？是不是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：基本的精神還是必須要符合憲法的規定。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！所以總統副總統選舉罷免法規定的大部分就是如何去選舉，還有選務等相關的規定而已吧！對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以如果要二輪制，我認為是要修憲啦！跟縣市首長要去修改變成二輪制，這個是不同的層級啊！我不知道主委的看法？"],["李主任委員進勇：我同意這是不同的層級。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以我覺得二輪制有好有壞，但我個人認為現在就臺灣來講，我比較擔心的是……其實在國外很多二輪制的投票，到第二輪變成換票聯盟、交易聯盟，我不知道主委有沒有看過相關的報導？"],["李主任委員進勇：看過。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！在二輪時就互相利益交換，我跟你換部長，我跟你換什麼，很多都是這樣。就臺灣來講，第一個我覺得臺灣面積小，人口數也才兩千三百多萬人，現在做這個事情，我個人認為是值得來考量的，我不知道主委你的看法？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會傾聽各界不同的聲音。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我必須要跟你說，有沒有改、有沒有什麼的，中選會其實也沒有機會可以去做決定，因為人家怎麼規定你們就怎麼做而已吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是修憲的話，我們還要辦理公民複決。"],["張委員宏陸：對，你們就是負責執行面嘛！對不對？所以我今天特別問你這個，也不是找你麻煩，只是覺得這個部分要讓大家知道，這已經到修憲的程度了。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這不是一般修法，主要的目的是在這裡啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我不知道主委的看法是不是如此？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這是牽涉到國家體制非常重要的一個議題，全民應該都會關心。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，感謝張宏陸委員。","請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163871","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff069b176ae16184f770a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400e704fec7cb43ff685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:22:17 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那就很多本席的我們很多的委員都有提到說有關於原住民或是錦囂其他的像錦囂一些老師這樣的公務人員有沒有機會未來來推不在籍投票 請問主委你的意見是什麼公民投票的部分 全國性公民投票的不在籍投票的草案我們已經第二度送到立法院來了"},{"start":521.98,"end":547.158,"text":"那我们是采取的这个移转投票的方式那这个移转投票的话他并没有限制什么样子的类别大家都可以有投票权人的国民就可以去申请所以这部分应该没有至于这个选举的部分这个是涉涉到这个内政部他们的权责这个我们也尊重内政部他们的规划"},{"start":548.837,"end":551.109,"text":"好好那好謝謝主委那謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":140,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時22分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請李進勇主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。主委，自從108年6月3號您在中選會主委就職，到現在已經七年多了。"],["李主任委員進勇：六年多。"],["張委員智倫：對不起，已經七年了？"],["李主任委員進勇：六年。"],["張委員智倫：六年了，好，OK。依照法律規定，您的任期是到今年的11月3號嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["張委員智倫：基本上來講依照法律規定，應該要在中選會的各個委員任期滿三個月要辦理提名作業，可是我們現在看行政院到目前為止，還沒有提出新的中選會委員名單，我們現在很擔心的是中選會現在總共有10名委員，包含您在內有6位委員任期會在11月3號屆期期滿。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員智倫：現在行政院發言人在9月2號有說在立法院開議以後，要將中選會的同意權案送到立法院審議，請問一下，就主委這邊有收到消息什麼時候會送進來嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：提名的人選是屬於行政院的權限，中選會在這一部分並沒有任何的訊息。"],["張委員智倫：主委，你不會擔心嗎？現在10名中，有6名已經快要到期了。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是很擔心，因為選務不能夠中斷，尤其明年年底要辦理地方公職人員選舉，有很多選舉的前置作業、一些應辦事項的期程規劃，在明年年初就必須預先規劃，規劃事項有很多都是必須經過我們委員會決議才能夠定案；而委員會的決議，開會有一定的人數門檻。"],["張委員智倫：我先請教一下，如果這6名委員到最後沒有送進來、沒有通過的話，中選會有辦法運作嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是不希望看到這種狀況，但是如果這種狀況發生的話，真的是會使中選會業務陷於停頓。"],["張委員智倫：在這邊拜託主委要跟行政院拜託，因為10月份還有非常多連假，而且有些是在禮拜五的連假，如果來不及送到立法院，或者是送進來的人選立法院如果有意見的話是沒有辦法去做更改，如果更改或是有意見的話，現在有超過半數是已經屆滿的狀況，所以要拜託主委是不是也要跟行政院拜託一下，趕快把這個名單送進來。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們了解行政院有非常積極重視這個問題，所以在積極尋覓適當的人選。"],["張委員智倫：好，再問一個問題，主委，你有推薦的人選嗎？因為我知道你已經兩屆任滿了，你有推薦新的中選會主委人選？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有。"],["張委員智倫：沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有，我們尊重行政院長的提名權。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。因為主委也即將期滿，在這邊先感謝您這幾年……"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝，謝謝委員對於選務的支持。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，我還是要跟你請教，這次我們看到整個臺灣歷史上的第一次大罷免，最後是32比0的狀況，所以我還是要跟主委報告，中選會不管是在選舉、罷免，選務機關都是負責非常重要的職責。這次大罷免結束，我個人主要還是認為大罷免這樣的狀況造成社會分裂，尤其是整個連署期間真的太長了，造成人民的對立，有時候在街頭都看到人民跟人民互相針對一些不同意見有紛爭。過去我們常說臺灣最美的風景是人，可是大罷免就會造成人民的對立跟撕裂的一個狀況，本席個人覺得連署的期間過長，當時我有請教過你有關未滿一年不得罷免的規定，但我們發現很多民眾在立委任期剛開始的時候就已經開始發起連署，事實上我認為這是一個漏洞，之前主委回復給我是說法無明文規定，中選會管不到！現在大罷免已經結束了，我想要請問主委，您的看法還是一樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：因為法律條文的規定是未滿一年不得提出。"],["張委員智倫：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：所謂提出，它是一個具體的動作，就是向我們中選會來提出這個罷免的案子，那現在……"],["張委員智倫：你有沒有覺得我們現在相關法令的確是有一些疏漏的地方可以調整？或者是你在解釋上是不是可以不要造成人民對立撕裂那麼嚴重？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個恐怕不是中選會能夠去擔起這個責任的。"],["張委員智倫：您個人的意見呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：我個人的意見是根據法律的規定，我們能夠依法行政把選務穩定地辦好，這是我們的責任。至於諸如所謂大罷免這個高度政治性對立的一個狀況，我們選務人員一定要嚴守中立，不能夠隨意去評論。"],["張委員智倫：我要跟主委報告的意思是，在我們投票選舉的時候是有很明確的法律規定，什麼時候能做什麼事情都非常清楚，可是罷免這個部分並沒有很明確規定什麼時候到底能做什麼事情，導致大家各自解讀都不一樣，所以我今天才趁主委在的時候來向您請教，看起來主委還是沒有很明確的一個想法。當然你們在預算書裡面是寫實務上因為不知道有沒有人在連署，所以很難查核，跟你現在講的方式其實是有一點點的落差。所以我才想……"],["李主任委員進勇：所謂預算書上面的說法，應該是指如果用法律條文限制在一年以前不得用任何方式連署，如果是這樣子的話，那查核有困難。但是就目前的法律條文規定，我們根本也沒有權力去查核，因為那是屬於言論自由、行動自由的一個範圍。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以主委現在的意思還是法無明文規定，所以就是大家自由心證？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。","第三個，我要請教有關於您上任來一直在推、非常重要有關於人民的行使權利，就是電子連署的部分，去年上線以後使用的狀況其實不是非常熱絡，現在我們的公投電子連署已經上線了，可是我們一直說，不管是公投連署，您的報告裡面有寫到我們的罷免系統部分還沒有上線，就您而言，您覺得什麼時候會上線？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們已經建置完成，但是因為這個牽涉的關係比較重大，我們很期待一旦上線的話不能夠出任何差錯，現在公投已經上線了，我們希望看公投上線之後實際運作的狀況有沒有什麼地方是須要再去加強的，我們做為罷免上線的參考。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。","最後一個問題，今天你的報告書裡面並沒有提到有關於不在籍投票的部分。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員智倫：有關不在籍投票，我相信是很多民眾行使投票的一個權利，就目前本席所了解，只有選務人員可以做不在籍投票，我們很多委員都有提到原住民或是像警消、老師這樣的公務人員，未來有沒有機會推不在籍投票？請問主委你的意見是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：有關全國性公民不在籍投票的草案，我們已經第二度送到立法院來了，我們是採取移轉投票的方式，移轉投票並沒有限制什麼樣子的類別，只要是有投票權人的國民就可以去申請，所以這部分應該沒有問題。至於選舉的部分，因為事涉內政部權責，我們也尊重內政部他們的規劃。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，感謝張智倫委員質詢。","現在請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}},{"id":"163870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163870","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff072ffe245e757fbd80a8af512ffeae19c522ce05ac16c0400e704fec7cb43ff685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:13:07 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感謝主席跟你對著用台語說很好那我們請中選會主委李主委請主委委員好"},{"start":16.499,"end":42.618,"text":"主委好 那我想我們是今天是這個會期第一次這個進行質詢巡打那其實前陣子對中選會來講真的是非常辛苦剛剛聽您的報告洋洋灑灑十幾點真的是沒有看過這麼忙的中選會因為不只是選務那還有這個公投的部分其實也非常的多那在這裡先跟所有中選會還有全國的選務人員先說一聲辛苦了"},{"start":43.438,"end":56.264,"text":"謝謝委員鼓勵不過我想是這樣子啦 既然台灣是民主的社會選舉選務都是我們日常會發生的狀況那我們就是藉著這樣一次次的選務來進行精進跟討論首先我想要請問的是齁這個 主委你有看過這張嗎你知道這張是什麼"},{"start":64.348,"end":83.714,"text":"這張啊這張叫做全國性公民投票案第21案公民投票公報這張你一定有看過這是21案那他的上一張是什麼上一張是17、18、19、20案的那一張四個案一起的那個公投對"},{"start":86.575,"end":93.838,"text":"來 主委我的問題是你知道這一張21案自己成為一張的這張公報跟17 18 19 20四案一張的那個公報有什麼不一樣的地方嗎後面如果有人可以代打的話我也蠻樂見答案的不一樣的地方一定是很多那最基本的就是字數也不一樣件數也不一樣這個當然沒有問題啦但是如果自己考這個就實在是太難了"},{"start":114.261,"end":118.29,"text":"這兩個公報中選會有沒有任何人知道最主要的"},{"start":120.222,"end":144.901,"text":"我們這兩個公報都是參著社研院給我們的這個設計的概念是用一樣的方式來編排都沒有任何不合法不合理的地方但它真的有一個非常非常大的不同就是本次的這個第21案的公民投票公報上面它其實沒有政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書"},{"start":146.377,"end":162.861,"text":"他其實沒有所以這整份公報上面就只有主文然後理由書也就是提出方的理由書然後下面就是應注意事項主委你知道這一次的這個公民投票21案提出方是誰立法院嘛 對那17 18 19 20是誰"},{"start":169.04,"end":188.517,"text":"是民眾這樣提出方的不一樣導致了他其實適用法規的不同所以其實在這裡公民投票法第15條那其實可以看得很清楚如果是這個由剛剛就是說的有立法院行政院和總統在提出的這一些的公民投票案"},{"start":189.258,"end":212.816,"text":"他其實不需要適用第九條至十三條第十七條第一項至第三款第十七條第一項第三款及十九條的規定而這個所謂十七條第一項第三款是什麼呢你如果看到那個你剛剛也有螢幕嘛上面我有反紅字的這個部分就是第三項就是政府機關針對公民投票案提出的意見書他真的不一定要"},{"start":213.716,"end":240.428,"text":"所以你這張合不合法 合不合情合理可以 OK 合規的沒有問題但我們看到的東西是什麼我們看到的東西就變成只有單方面提出的意見書啊所以另外一邊的不贊成的狀況或者反對的方向或至少政府機關的理由畢竟這是一個針對重大政策的案件不管他贊成同意或者到什麼方向其實沒有耶 我們沒有看到諸位你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":243.31,"end":260.353,"text":"關於公民投票我們當然是希望民眾能夠獲得正反方的衝突的資訊以便於他們做理智的決定那在一般人民的提案裡面會有政府立場的說明但是在立法院提案的部分是明文予以排除"},{"start":269.935,"end":279.961,"text":"但是雖然在公報上沒有政府官方的意見但是在我們所辦的公投的意見發表會上"},{"start":281.809,"end":302.894,"text":"有反方的團體有政方的代表反方的團體裡面也相當成分的反映了政府部門對於公投議題的意見所以還是有一部分的管道可以讓民眾接受到雙方的訊息成儒主委你說也有一部分的管道可以了解政府的立場"},{"start":303.854,"end":321.026,"text":"好所以這是一部分但是在這一張上面每個人手上都有的這張上面其實就是沒有好那然後如果你想你如果細讀我們的公投法這樣文字下來其實他有沒有一定不可以寫上去啊所以這要寫還是不寫這個主委我覺得這個就有討論的空間啦甚至是"},{"start":323.968,"end":344.48,"text":"如果大家覺得不管哪一案哪一種都應該要有政府立場的表述那我們就可以回過頭來看看這一條法規是不是有修改的必要或可能這個我是見請嚴議啦我也沒有說今天就一定要怎麼處理啦所以這是第一條嘛好那第二條的話其實"},{"start":346.041,"end":366.548,"text":"主委我再跟您請教的是剛剛我們說其實現在公投法規定全國性公民投票的提出方式現在就有四種公民連署行政院提案立法院提案和總統交付主委您現在來看我們這一次經過的是我們台灣史上第一次由立法院提出的公民投票是"},{"start":367.768,"end":392.049,"text":"好那他有什麼不一樣你會不會發現其實我們來看我們完全就是層次拉高來看公投法當時他最重要的立法精神第一條他就是寫我們是為了要讓直接民權嗎依憲法主權在民的原則為確保國民直接民權之行使特制定本法什麼是直接民權是我們直接去投票人民直接去投票叫做直接民權嗎"},{"start":392.99,"end":418.559,"text":"那你立法院其實本來就已經是間接民權的狀況了好可是你今天讓立法院可以去推動去提出這個公民投票案的時候這個跟公民投票的精神是不是一致其實我覺得這就很值得討論啊更何況是在由立法院這個間接民權單位來提出公民投票案的時候他的提出程序我們現在事後來看其實比公"},{"start":421.822,"end":424.987,"text":"以公民去提案公民提案的"},{"start":426.421,"end":454.834,"text":"簡便度難易度其實少很多耶其實少很多耶這樣合理嗎這也是一個問號謝謝委員這個公民投票公民提案的公民投票它是範圍包括有法律案的創制覆決有這個重大政策的創制覆決但是在立法院所提的案子裡面因為它本身就是立法機關所以立法原則的創制這個法律案的這個覆決"},{"start":455.734,"end":472.483,"text":"他是不能提的 是 他才能夠就重大政策 重大政策那立法院因為他也相當代表了民意所以就民意重大政策的部分來提出公民投票的案子 榮獲有這個需要的空間"},{"start":473.615,"end":490.712,"text":"我們回去片查當年的立法理由啦其實並沒有像這個主委您現在說的這麼清楚那我覺得要或不要當然都可以各自有立場只是當我們依照我們制定的法規實際執行了一次之後其實就剛剛的不管是"},{"start":491.212,"end":514.746,"text":"我們可以提出的項目內容也就是剛剛的其實立法已經不可以提了是只有提政策的這一端還有接下來的程序提案的程序呈案的程序等等到底要到什麼程度我覺得其實這一次經過了立法院提案的這麼龐大規模的公民投票我們是可以來考慮一下這個是不是日後就公民投票案"},{"start":515.746,"end":529.638,"text":"有精進的空間這是我想在這次我們花了這麼大的力氣進行了這麼大的一場公民投票之後那成效如何這個提供中選會參考啦我也希望有看到中選會有看到就本案的檢討報告這是我們的期待啦謝謝委員指教好 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我們請這個顏主委請顏主委徐委員好主委好 今天很多的委員都有去向您槌尋有關於教育子女補助費的事情所以細節我不再多闡述我只有一個問題想要問就是說呢 當時在三讀通過以後那在這個編列的部分呢"},{"start":27.702,"end":54.112,"text":"那退府會因為我知道退府會一直都想要向行政院來爭取那能夠發放這一筆費用好那很多的我們的這個基層軍官那也對於他們未來的這個退伍生涯擁有這一筆教育補助費對他們來說是相當重要的所以也都是引頸期盼好那我的問題是這樣子就是說在三讀通過之後是哪一個單位告訴你們說不能去編列他要去送視線的"},{"start":55.543,"end":73.255,"text":"報告委員預算沒有問題我們今天不是說通知我們要編預算我們今年就有預算教育補助費原來就有預算這個五千多萬是沒問題的而是說不能編的是哪一個單位請你們說不能編在明年度的預算我想要問的是單位"},{"start":73.875,"end":87.426,"text":"就是說其他的其他委員都槌尋過了我就不再問我想問說是哪一個單位請你們說不能去編這五千我知道都有錢經費都夠但不能編進去是哪一個單位告訴我們說不能編的"},{"start":90.217,"end":104.359,"text":"這不是不能編的問題是我們原來就有預算是可以編他是說可以編然後我們再回去審重新再審閱一下因為跨部會審閱那不是啊三讀已經通過東西你要審閱什麼呢那是誰叫你要審閱的呢"},{"start":105.14,"end":126.653,"text":"是言主委您自己的意思還是說行政院有其他的高層那請你們再多做進一步的審閱或者是任何的理由使得他沒有辦法編列在明年度的預算當中讓我們今年度來做審查呢我想要問的是單位其他的部分不需要再贅述了單位哪一個單位"},{"start":128.601,"end":136.002,"text":"行政院的哪一個單位還是總統府還是怎麼樣哪一個單位請你們這麼做的只要告訴我單位的名稱就好了比如說行政院秘書長辦公室卓榮泰院長或是哪一個單位行政院國防部長哪一個單位請你們這麼做的"},{"start":155.301,"end":175.326,"text":"報告委員我是會計處處長請說沒有任何單位你們自己決定的不是他是這樣子教育補助會一直都有但是那個發放要根據規定那過去的規定現在三讀通過的規定過去的規定是行政院人事總署他會發就哪些對象可以領"},{"start":175.626,"end":199.586,"text":"我講的就是說三讀通過之後你們沒有去編列是哪一個單位還是你們自己決定你們不要編列到明年的嘛其他我都沒有問我就問是哪一個單位而已是你們自己嗎你剛剛的意思是這樣我們預算有不是啦我沒有問你預算的問題我要問的是因為你們沒有編嘛你們沒有編對不對沒有編在明年的"},{"start":201.44,"end":212.429,"text":"所以明年發放的部分按照三讀通過的法律發放嗎我問的是三讀通過的這個部分嘛三讀通過的現在就是要訂規定訂規定那三讀通過了你還要訂什麼規定啊"},{"start":215.823,"end":234.101,"text":"跟委員報告目前三讀通過的是一個法律的授權依據那依照這個規定那請問三讀通過這法律授權依據裡面有沒有提到說是什麼時候開始生效沒有那他的他是說由輔導會會同教育部定之所以我們依照這個法律的授權我們已經擬定了這個發給辦法的草案"},{"start":237.705,"end":266.827,"text":"那也在8月8號到14號辦理了預告也進行了法規審議的會議那這個辦法其實我們已經完成了整備那主要是因為行政院考量這個有一些部會就是相關有教育部跟人事總處都是相關的部會所以希望我們把這個草案報到院裡面來審閱那目前在9月3號已經報院審閱了OK所以那但是我們要詢問的是那明年度會不會根據這個三讀通過的法律來發放啊"},{"start":268.055,"end":292.958,"text":"明年度目前因為目前只要行政院一同意我們馬上會發布那因為我們的末條我們是那發布之後你們編列在今年的如果你們沒有編在現在的預算裡面那我們立法委員怎麼去審議那沒有審議的話明年要怎麼發放還是你要再追加他目前的預算是足以支應的啦因為才五千多萬所以你放在哪邊你現在預算書放在哪邊"},{"start":294.455,"end":314.882,"text":"跟委員報告我退出給付處的處長是請說我們的退出給付預算的人事費有編列進行交易補助費就是按照三讀通過的這個法律的全權的數額是足夠的好那我知道了謝謝你那這邊我想要再問一下我們的這個主委有關於啊就是呢我們有兩種這個就業官兵就業的穩定的津貼"},{"start":319.423,"end":341.97,"text":"那這兩種津貼呢那我就因為時間的關係我直接講給你看這個圖那最多呢是有12個月那但每一項只能申請一次也就是說呢如果你申請了其中的一項但你就業6個月就離職的話那後面的月份你要滿足另一項的津貼之後最多也只能申請這個6個月的津貼"},{"start":343.15,"end":367.206,"text":"其中有一項我在跟您說明就是在這個推薦就業津貼裡面經過融服處或是執訊中心推薦的就業在同一個就業機構超過三個月的就可以在第四個月申請領取補貼這個用意是很好沒有錯可是你要在入職之前就申請然後最多可以申請12個月"},{"start":368.627,"end":398.11,"text":"但是有非常多的這個處理的軍官這個弟兄跟我們反映說很多軍人退伍之後那第一個他很難在短時間內找到工作第二個入職前三個月呢通常我們一般那會被認為說是一個新人見習的機段其實我們法律上面沒有試用期但是呢我們在我國司法週刊我們可以看到6月6號的文章裡面實務上面試用期大概是有三到六個月的時間"},{"start":398.99,"end":418.983,"text":"時間左右所以就是說你今天我今天要選擇一個工作然後我要去就業了我要申請這個補助竟然要在入職前就申請那我對於我接下來去從事這個行業到底適應不適應我都還不知道我就要先申請了"},{"start":419.423,"end":436.274,"text":"那如果我做了兩個月我發現不適應這個工作我要離職的話那我後續的權益就會受到很大的影響所以比較合理的狀況是什麼呢你這個是從第四個月開始發沒有錯比較合理的狀況是你前三個月你前三個月"},{"start":437.403,"end":450.667,"text":"你確定你要這個工作OK之後再開始申請這樣子的一個補貼而不是你在入職前你就要申請這個補貼那你呢好那你呢現在的狀況就是很多人反應說中間離職了"},{"start":452.908,"end":473.406,"text":"這個推薦的就業津貼也不能再繼續領取如果你要拿到剩餘月份的津貼你還要去上指訓班在就業三個月之後才能夠繼續領取所以我想要問一下相關的規定有沒有可能改為第一個你入職三個月以後再決定要不要申請津貼或者同一項津貼還可以"},{"start":474.207,"end":478.828,"text":"繼續申請沒有申請完的月份補助這兩種選項請問一下可以說明嗎委員我請就業處處長可以請說委員好我是就業處處長池玉蘭跟您簡單報告第一個我們現在要申請這個促進穩定就業津貼第一個是到融服處一定要先去登記申請你要去進到哪一個工作到哪一家公司去並不是說要先申請這個促進穩定就業津貼"},{"start":502.614,"end":507.618,"text":"第二個因為為什麼要三個月因為這個也是參考勞動部三個月叫做穩定就業那你在三個月之內如果你是非志願離職沒有問題你都可以直接再去繼續申請只要兩個月內你再去工作這個都可以繼續再申請你剩下來的穩定就業津貼你說兩個月之內要找到工作那個是非志願離職"},{"start":528.353,"end":552.618,"text":"那如果你是在三个月之内因为你不适应你就离开了因为三个月之内你不可以领取任何的津贴所以你在三个月之内你离职没有问题农夫处可以继续再帮你介绍工作总而言之你不管是推介就业或训候稳定就业你必须要满三个月才可以申请所以对于他的权益没有任何的损失"},{"start":554.178,"end":557.539,"text":"那所以說他滿三個月之後我詢問一下他滿三個月之後他再來申請然後在第四個月的時候把前三個月的領進來是如果因為我們規定是要滿三個月然後第四個月開始第一天開始你都可以來申請前面三個月的一個就業津貼那你第四個月之後如果你離職"},{"start":575.746,"end":579.409,"text":"而且是自願離職的話那我們就因為我們就認為你在這個職場上面可能需要更提升你的技能讓你更穩定這個這個職場的環境還有你所需要這個工作的技能那我們就希望你要去走訓後穩定就業津貼那但是而且絕對不會影響的權益我就是補助你一年12個月你剩下來的都可以來申請"},{"start":601.328,"end":611.518,"text":"妳剩下來都可以來申請但中間那還需要去上職訓班嗎需要 如果妳已經滿三個月以後妳已經領過我的促進推介就業津貼的人妳就必須要去轉到訓後就業津貼然後在就業三個月之後再繼續領取津貼對 再來申請一樣12個月然後總共是12個月嘛 是的"},{"start":623.009,"end":650.229,"text":"那這個部分的話可能大家就是會有一點質疑的地方在於說你中間上執訓課程的時候那他也是中間就等於是沒有薪資的然後你後續你還要再找工作的時候你也還需要花時間那在兩個月之內他就算是自願離職好了非自願離職好了那他可能也會需要更多的時間再來我想問一下在自願離職的部分呢"},{"start":650.851,"end":652.912,"text":"志願離職就是我們剛講你只要上100個小時以上叫做全日制的一個訓練那其實就符合我們的規定就可以去領我訓後就業津貼而且我訓後就業津貼的額度是高於這個推介就業所以我們這個案子到現在為止並沒有人來跟我們澄清說有來跟我們澄清"},{"start":671.723,"end":686.477,"text":"是沒有問題如果說後續委員可以把這個case給我們我們來協助以上那所以我要再強調一個重點就在於說你們在這個執訓的過程當中其實這一些退伍的官兵他是沒有薪水的"},{"start":687.057,"end":713.986,"text":"然後呢他為了要領這個津貼呢他又要在這個兩個月之內他再找到工作好那所以呢對他們來說其實是有一點點負擔在的因為能夠退伍之後這麼快找到工作那中間又經過了這個非自願的離職是有一些困難的所以在這個部分呢我們再協調看看要怎麼樣能夠更快的去促進他們在這個領取津貼的時候更方便更便利也更快速便捷好嗎好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":716.527,"end":717.995,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":363,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時31分）謝謝召委，我們請嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["嚴主任委員德發：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：主委好。今天很多委員都有向您垂詢有關子女教育補助費的事情，所以細節我不再多闡述，我只有一個問題想要問，當時在三讀通過以後，在編列的部分，因為我知道退輔會一直都想要向行政院爭取能夠發放這一筆費用，很多的基層軍官也對於他們未來的退伍生涯來說，擁有這筆教育補助費是相當重要的，也都引頸期盼。我的問題是在三讀通過之後，是哪一個單位告訴你們不能去編列它，要去送釋憲的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：報告委員，預算沒有問題，今年不是通知我們要編預算，教育補助費原來就有預算，五千多萬是沒問題的，而是說……"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！對。但是哪一個單位跟你們說不能編在明年度的預算？我想要問的是「單位」。其他的部分其他委員都垂詢過了，我就不再問，我想問的是哪一個單位請你們不能編列這五千萬？我知道都有錢，經費都夠，但不能編進去是哪一個單位告訴你們不能編的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：這不是不能編的問題，我們原來就有預算，是可以編……"],["徐委員巧芯：可以編，但後來……"],["嚴主任委員德發：他是說要我們重新再審閱一下，因為跨部會。"],["徐委員巧芯：審閱？不是啊！三讀已經通過的東西，你要審閱什麼呢？那是誰叫你要審閱的呢？是嚴主委您自己的意思，還是行政院有其他的高層請你們再進一步審閱，或者是有任何的理由，使得它沒有辦法編列在明年度的預算當中，讓你們今年度來做審查呢？我想要問的是單位，其他的部分不需要再贅述了，哪一個單位？行政院的哪一個單位？還是總統府，還是誰？哪一個單位請你們這麼做的？"],["嚴主任委員德發：這個會計處知道嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：只要告訴我單位的名稱就好了，比如說，行政院秘書長辦公室、卓榮泰院長或是國防部部長，哪一個單位請你們這麼做的？"],["蔡處長進滿：報告委員，我是會計處處長。"],["徐委員巧芯：請說。"],["蔡處長進滿：跟您報告，沒有任何單位有這樣的指示。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們自己決定的？"],["蔡處長進滿：不是，它是這樣子，教育補助費一直都有，但是發放要根據規定，過去的規定……"],["徐委員巧芯：規定是現在三讀通過的規定。"],["蔡處長進滿：過去的規定是行政院人事總處會發……就是哪些對象可以領，現在修過法以後……"],["徐委員巧芯：我講的就是在三讀通過之後，你們沒有去編列是哪一個單位說的，還是你們自己決定不要編列到明年的預算？"],["蔡處長進滿：沒有、沒有，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：其他的我都沒有問，我就問是哪一個單位而已，是你們自己嘛，你剛剛的意思是這樣？"],["蔡處長進滿：沒有，我們預算有，應該是……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是啦！我沒有問你預算的問題，我要問的是因為你們沒有編嘛！你們沒有編，對不對？沒有編在明年的……"],["蔡處長進滿：有編、有編。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以明年發放的部分，按照三讀通過的法律發放嗎？我問的是三讀通過的這個部分。"],["蔡處長進滿：三讀通過的現在就是要訂規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：訂規定？"],["蔡處長進滿：對，要訂規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：都三讀通過了，你還要訂什麼規定？"],["陳執行秘書靜如：跟委員報告，目前三讀通過的是一個法律的授權依據，依照這個規定，依照我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問三讀通過這個法律授權依據裡面有沒有提到什麼時候開始生效？"],["陳執行秘書靜如：沒有，它是說由退輔會會同教育部訂之，所以我們依照法律的授權，我們已經擬定了發給辦法的草案，也在8月8號到14號辦理預告，也進行了法規審議會議。這個辦法其實我們已經完成整備，主要是因為行政院考量有一些部會，就是教育部跟人事總處都是相關部會，所以希望我們把這個草案報到院裡面審閱，目前已經在9月3號報院審閱了。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，但是我要詢問的是明年度會不會根據這個三讀通過的法律來發放？"],["陳執行秘書靜如：目前只要行政院一同意，我們會馬上發布，因為我們的末條是建議……"],["徐委員巧芯：發布之後，你們編列在今年的……如果你們沒有編在現在的預算裡面，我們立法委員怎麼去審議？沒有審議的話，明年要怎麼發放？還是你要再追加？"],["陳執行秘書靜如：目前的預算是足以支應的，因為才五千多萬。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你放在哪邊？現在放在預算書的哪邊？"],["羅處長馬可：跟委員報告，我是退除給付處的處長。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，請說。"],["羅處長馬可：我們的退除給付預算的人事費有編列子女教育補助費。"],["徐委員巧芯：就是按照三讀通過法律的全權數額是足夠的？"],["羅處長馬可：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我知道了，謝謝你。","我想要再問一下主委，關於兩種官兵的穩定就業津貼，這兩種津貼因為時間的關係我直接講，給你看這個圖，最多是有12個月，當然每一項只能申請1次，也就是說如果你申請了其中一項，但你就業6個月就離職的話，後面的月份要滿足另一項津貼之後，最多也只能申請6個月的津貼。","其中有一項在推介就業津貼裡面，經過榮服處或是職訓中心推介的就業，在同一個就業機構超過3個月者就可以在第4個月申請領取補貼。這個用意是很好沒有錯，可是你要在入職之前就申請，最多可以申請12個月，但是有非常多退除役軍官弟兄跟我們反映說，很多軍人退伍之後，第一個，他很難在短時間內找到工作；第二個，入職前3個月通常一般會被認為是新人見習的階段，即使法律上面沒有試用期，但是在我國司法周刊6月6號的文章裡面提到，實務上試用期大概是有3到6個月左右的時間。所以我今天要選擇一個工作，然後我要去就業了，我要申請這個補助竟然要在入職前就申請，對於接下來從事的這個行業到底適不適應，我都還不知道就要先申請了，如果我做了兩個月發現不適應這個工作要離職的話，我後續的權益就會受到很大的影響，所以比較合理的狀況是什麼呢？這是從第4個月開始發沒有錯，比較合理的狀況是，前3個月你確定要這個工作，OK之後再開始申請這樣的補貼，而不是在入職前就要申請這個補貼。","現在的狀況就是很多人反映若中間離職了，這個推介就業津貼不能再繼續領取，如果要拿到剩餘月份的津貼還要去上職訓班，再就業3個月之後才能夠繼續領取。所以我想要問一下相關規定有沒有可能改為，第一個，入職3個月以後再決定要不要申請津貼，或者同一項津貼還可以繼續申請沒有申請完的月份補助，這兩種選項請問一下可以說明嗎？"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員，我請就業處處長說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：可以，請說。"],["池處長玉蘭：委員好，我是就業處處長池玉蘭。跟您簡單報告，我們現在要申請促進穩定就業津貼，第一個是到榮服處一定要先去登記申請你要進到哪一個工作、到哪一家公司，並不是說要先申請促進穩定就業津貼；第二個，為什麼要3個月？這個也是參考勞動部，3個月叫作穩定就業，那在3個月之內如果是非自願離職，沒有問題，都可以直接再繼續申請，只要2個月內再去工作，這樣可以繼續再申請剩下來的穩定就業津貼。"],["徐委員巧芯：你說兩個月之內要找到工作？"],["池處長玉蘭：那個是非自願離職。如果是在3個月之內不適應就離開了，因為3個月之內不可以領取任何的津貼，所以在3個月之內離職，沒有問題，榮服處可以繼續再幫你介紹工作。總而言之，不管是推介就業或訓後穩定就業，必須要滿3個月才可以申請，所以對於他的權益沒有任何的損失。"],["徐委員巧芯：我詢問一下，所以他滿3個月之後再來申請，然後在第4個月的時候把前3個月的領進來？"],["池處長玉蘭：是，因為我們規定是要滿3個月，然後第4個月第1天開始都可以來申請前面3個月的就業津貼，第4個月之後如果離職，而且是自願離職的話，我們就認為你在職場上面可能需要更提升技能，讓你更穩定適應職場的環境，還有你所需要的工作技能，我們就希望你要去走訓後穩定就業津貼，而且絕對不會影響權益，我就是補助你一年12個月，你剩下來的月份都可以來申請。"],["徐委員巧芯：你剩下來都可以來申請，但是中間還需要去上職訓班嗎？"],["池處長玉蘭：需要，如果滿3個月以後，已經領過我的促進推介就業津貼的人就必須要轉到訓後就業津貼。"],["徐委員巧芯：然後再就業3個月之後再繼續來申請津貼……"],["池處長玉蘭：對，再來申請，一樣是12個月。"],["徐委員巧芯：然後總共是12個月嘛！對不對？"],["池處長玉蘭：是的，對。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個部分的話，可能大家會有一點質疑的地方在於中間上職訓課程的時候，他中間就等於是沒有薪資的，然後後續還要再找工作的時候也還需要花時間。2個月之內就算是非自願離職好了，他可能也會需要更多的時間。再來我想問一下，在自願離職的部分呢？"],["池處長玉蘭：自願離職就是我們剛剛講的，只要上100個小時以上全日制的訓練就符合我們的規定，就可以去領訓後就業津貼，而且訓後就業津貼的額度是高於推介就業，所以我們這個案子到現在為止並沒有人來跟我們陳情……"],["徐委員巧芯：有來跟我們陳情哦！"],["池處長玉蘭：是，沒有問題，如果後續委員可以把這個case給我們，我們來協助，以上。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。所以我要再強調一個重點，你們在職訓的過程當中，其實這一些退伍官兵他是沒有薪水的。"],["池處長玉蘭：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：他為了要領這個津貼，他又要在這2個月之內再找到工作，所以對他們來說其實是有一點點負擔在的，因為退伍之後能這麼快找到工作，中間又經過了非自願離職，這是有一些困難的，所以在這個部分，我們再協調看看要怎麼樣能夠更快地去促進他們在領取津貼的時候更方便、更便利，也更快速、便捷，好嗎？"],["池處長玉蘭：好，謝謝委員。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請賴士葆委員、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-2","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","林楚茵","黃仁","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","邱志偉","賴惠員","林憶君","賴士葆","陳永康"],"page_start":207,"m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我們看一下"},{"start":213.223,"end":222.08,"text":"因為這個鉤仔集團以揭秘之名行政治偵訪之時啊遍佈了內閣的許多的部會郭志輝前經濟部長"},{"start":224.034,"end":243.054,"text":"鄭文燦前行政院副院長陳時中更不用說史喆連在文化部長的任內也被偷拍了而他還跨院紀李俊毅秘書長監察院還有潘孟安他當時是一介平民只因為他在輔選賴清德總統競選"},{"start":246.027,"end":266.254,"text":"所以說呢他的對象非常的廣泛而內閣的閣員啊真的是都可能成為被偷拍的對象下一頁而前法務部部長蔡清祥就被偷拍啦而且黃國昌委員還拿著這個偷拍的資訊來這裡質詢您"},{"start":270.822,"end":287.669,"text":"最後被打臉是烏龍的爆料我調出當天您有多為難呢當天是在今年的六月份黃國昌就在這裡我為什麼說司法法治委員會成了這個黨狗煤產業鏈不法集團的犯案現場"},{"start":288.849,"end":306.104,"text":"拿著這個不法拍來的偷拍的照片來為難您然後要求你說這個蔡清祥被拍到上班時間去喬聯合再生的官司你記不記得有這樣質詢你還要求你立案調查 有沒有有這回事"},{"start":306.744,"end":330.339,"text":"結果事後證明是被打臉嘛蔡清強部長在黃國昌委員秀出來的照片看圖說故事的當天整天都在立法院備詢可是當下你沒有足夠的資訊你在備詢台上面對委員的咄咄逼人我調了逐字稿你當天也很為難的說好那我們來調查好像還押了時間要一週內啊"},{"start":332.423,"end":341.143,"text":"只要拿這種資訊來為難法務部長如果您還真的去調查了幫助了這個不法偷拍的集團"},{"start":344.219,"end":365.144,"text":"這成何體統啊所以我在這裡建議未來不分黨派的立法委員包括我也嚴格要求我自己如果有任何立委拿著不知道從哪裡而來來源不明 真偽不實的照片資訊在這裡要求您做這個承諾去做那個調查"},{"start":366.644,"end":382.017,"text":"我認為您都要仔細謹慎的回應否則很可能就淪為這個黨狗煤產業鏈不幸的淪為它的被利用的對象這點應當做到吧謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":382.765,"end":409.619,"text":"是藉由媒體的揭發讓我們官員更可以據理力爭如果真有弊案真有不法當然該辦就辦這就是我們的立場但如果是來源不明真偽不實來這裡帶風向的我想部長應當要有這樣子的一個承擔跟背膀該say no就say no我們捍衛的是法治的精神下一頁下一頁"},{"start":411.004,"end":419.13,"text":"那現在除了偷拍他可能違反哪些法單純的不法偷拍政治偵訪"},{"start":422.559,"end":443.189,"text":"目前涉及的就是剛剛委員寫的新法315之一這個是甚至去謀利的部分對不對如果沒有謀利之前涉違法刑法的妨礙秘密還有個資法嘛如果說它涉及境外勢力的話可能還有"},{"start":446.01,"end":471.323,"text":"還有國安跟反滲透法的規範那最新的是被揭露了偷拍產業鏈還涉及利用立法委員的幕僚昨天被踢爆的那涉及用非法而且是牟利的方式來進行打擊政敵他可能最佳一等可能會違反哪些法律"},{"start":472.708,"end":496.027,"text":"如果拿來牟利 牟利的話他當然有刑法這個委員有寫到315-2的問題嘛那但是會不會成立他要檢察官去做一個調查嘛所以依證據到哪裡就辦哪裡只是他可能觸犯的法律在這裡我們必須要就法論法那最後要就教於您下一頁法務部公署機關"},{"start":498.274,"end":524.269,"text":"被這位謝姓記者拿去承租潘孟安當時是一介平民喔他當時居住而且是租用的社區的停車場這位謝姓記者利用的是法務部記者室的地址去登記租借了這件事情你們有沒有查你們要怎麼辦"},{"start":526.148,"end":552.387,"text":"這部分我們不清楚我們不知道他會我們也沒有授權他這樣做當然不准許也不會授權授權不知道我們也不可能授權所以我們那個處所那只是我們六樓是有一個辦公室我們是提供給記者就所有的司法記者一個公用的一個空間就像立法院也有記者室一個撰稿或發新聞之用而已"},{"start":553.007,"end":574.116,"text":"那也沒有說這個是你哪有個人哪一個位置我們幫他排行 沒有這樣這是一個公用的一個空間而已那這部分我們這件事我們非常的震驚啊 人當震怒啊太扯了 怎麼會有這種事情所以我們會再加強注意就是去"},{"start":575.777,"end":593.032,"text":"不要再有此類的情形那就這件事情你也沒辦法已經成為繼承事實了他拿去租了好長一段時間他就把聯絡地寫成我們六樓請問您常常跟台北司法記者聯誼會來互動嗎"},{"start":596.075,"end":618.729,"text":"我們會有一些的不定期的做一個互動比如我們那個新聞的一些的亮點的發表或者一些查序我們會做互動好 我做出這樣子的建議如果用不實的資訊去租借做任何的契約文書它應當也涉及了偽造問書吧你們應該還是有告發的必要吧"},{"start":625.339,"end":644.751,"text":"或者是這部分這邊我們這公訴罪他也可以主動偵辦他是寫這個是他的地址是這個有沒有涉及到我這去研究一下好不好這很清楚他就用不實的地址他確實偽造文書啊他確實因為你們沒有同意他用這個地址去租借這個這個社區的"},{"start":648.047,"end":668.699,"text":"對不對 社區的停車場啊你們難道沒辦法嗎法律是來保護善良的人但是法務部卻被利用了 濫用了我們無法可辦嗎這部分應該是韋兆文書這邊因為無自作權去冒用他的名義去製作的嘛"},{"start":671.271,"end":680.453,"text":"這個沒有涉及到法務部的一個文書他只是把法務部的那個柱子跟六樓好 所以你現在能做的就是以後提房但房不勝房啊"},{"start":680.976,"end":702.229,"text":"是 這個這部分我們都要拜託媒體記者不要我相信啦這個司法記者聯誼會的多數記者是善良的是秉持媒體的良知的是善盡媒體的第四權的監督義務的但是有發生這樣子的不肖的行為我認為法務部都應當再去查一下有沒有任何"},{"start":703.413,"end":727.628,"text":"你們司法記者聯誼會的名目被拿去做了很多不當的行為或者是這個記者室本身也去孫孫看一看 有人在那做了什麼樣子的我也不知道會不會有偷拍的東西布在你們法務部裡頭啊提高警覺 但是我還是覺得你們相對是比較被動相對也比較 當然你們很無辜嘛"},{"start":728.837,"end":747.503,"text":"我希望部長能夠多想想我們要預防因為法務部就是要法治要能夠彰顯的地方各位網友我們再跟會長我們再跟他們做一個溝通就不要以法務部的當作他們的不要濫用這個空間濫用的地址也不要濫用這個頭銜是"},{"start":749.924,"end":765.533,"text":"我也會幫忙想想否則社會覺得法務部沒辦法有什麼公權可以行使這也覺得說不完我們再思考一下好 該怎麼辦就怎麼辦不分顏色法律是保護善良人保護善良社會的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":829,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時29分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長，法律沒有顏色，在民主法治的臺灣，該怎麼辦，就怎麼辦，沒有錯嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：這都是我們高度的共識。面對當今政壇最大的醜聞，而且它也幾乎成了世界級的醜聞、民主之恥，用跟監偷拍的方式來進行政治的偵防，我也就這個主題在上週五質詢了卓榮泰院長，我主張保護閣員的隱私，更要保護國家的安全，我們應當在前端有效地預防，而末端如果有不法的人員，就要依法來究處徹查，我想就是回到法律的規範裡頭。","對於這個黨狗媒的產業鏈，我要非常遺憾的說，我們立法院的司法及法制委員會應當是來精進法制的，但是卻被不肖的人士利用法制來作為不法行為的掩護。我真的要很遺憾地說，司法及法制委員會幾乎成了這個黨狗媒產業鏈的犯案現場，怎麼說呢？拿著很多不正當的手段偷拍而來的影像來這裡為難官員、質詢您；拿著揭發弊案的這種名目，事實上是在打擊政敵，更甚至讓我回頭來看是不勝唏噓啊！我們各黨這麼努力的催生制定了吹哨者保護法，但是制定這個法律的催生者之一──黃國昌委員，他為的居然不是來保護真正良善的吹哨者，恐怕流於為這些偷拍、不法惡質的吹哨者築起保護傘。所以如果司法法制委員會淪為這樣一個產業鏈的犯案現場，真的是臺灣民主法治的悲哀喔！部長，你有被偷拍嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不清楚有沒有被偷拍。"],["吳委員思瑤：你有沒有什麼樣的訊息，或是自己有什麼樣的提醒？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想官員除了戮力從公、全力以赴之外，當然有他的私生活嘛，私生活我們就是依照公務人員廉政倫理規範，或者我們要注意自己……"],["吳委員思瑤：合乎法規之外，也是要保護個人的生活隱私。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這部分我想我們也要避免受害，所以都要去做……"],["吳委員思瑤：提高警覺？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，是。"],["吳委員思瑤：您覺得您會不會也是被偷拍的可能對象？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不知道，因為我上班很正常，回到宿舍就……"],["吳委員思瑤：部長，我們還是提高警覺，因為就我看來，您應當也是有極高可能的。因為這個狗仔集團以揭弊之名行政治偵防之實，遍布內閣許多的部會，郭智輝前經濟部長、鄭文燦前行政院副院長、陳時中更不用說，史哲連在文化部長的任內也被偷拍了，而他還跨院際喔！監察院李俊俋秘書長；還有潘孟安，他當時是一介平民，只因為他在輔選賴清德總統競選，所以說他的對象非常的廣泛，內閣的閣員真的都可能成為被偷拍的對象。前法務部部長蔡清祥就被偷拍啦，而且黃國昌委員還拿著這個偷拍的資訊來這裡質詢您，最後被打臉是烏龍的爆料。我調出當天您有多為難呢？是在今年的6月份，黃國昌就在這裡，我為什麼說司法法制委員會成了這個黨狗媒產業鏈、不法集團的犯案現場？拿著不法拍來、偷拍的照片來為難您，然後要求你，說蔡清祥被拍到上班時間去喬聯合再生的官司，你記不記得他有這樣質詢你，還要求你立案調查，有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有這回事。"],["吳委員思瑤：結果事後證明是被打臉嘛！蔡清祥部長在黃國昌委員秀出來的照片、看圖說故事的當天，他整天都在立法院備詢，可是當下你沒有足夠的資訊，你在備詢臺上面對委員的咄咄逼人，我調了逐字稿，你當天也很為難的說「好，那我們來調查」，好像還押了時間要一週內。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：拿這種資訊來為難法務部長，如果您還真的去調查了，幫助了這個不法偷拍的集團，這成何體統？所以我在這裡建議，未來不分黨派的立法委員，包括我也嚴格要求我自己，如果有任何立委拿著不知道從哪裡而來，來源不明、真偽不實的照片資訊，在這裡要求您做承諾、去調查，我認為您都要仔細謹慎的回應，否則就很可能不幸的淪為被黨狗媒產業鏈利用的對象，這點應當做到吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。藉由媒體的揭發，讓我們官員更可以據理力爭，如果真有弊案、真有不法，當然該辦就辦，這就是我們的立場。但如果是來源不明、真偽不實來這裡帶風向的，我想部長應當要有這樣子的承擔跟臂膀，該say 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請主席長財政部莊翠雲部長 莊部長經濟部龔明興部長 龔部長還有我們勞動部陳明仁長賜 謝謝"},{"start":15.92,"end":25.905,"text":"還有次長首先我想先請教一下主席長一下10月17號是最快的時間普發現金一萬元這部分這個時間是10月17是最快的時間對不對財政部長請財政部長這邊回答"},{"start":36.448,"end":52.351,"text":"10月我想大院三讀通過這個時間是由大院來做決定的對 其實我想立法院其實也希望說能夠把普發現金這個1萬元這部分盡量開始落實所以我們今天的整個議程走得非常的快召委其實也走得非常快"},{"start":53.251,"end":71.879,"text":"預計今天明天要把這個部分能夠把它完成然後下禮拜送程序委員會然後下禮拜就可以送到我們的院會裡面我想說因為針對10月17號這部分我想說部長這邊有提到說一個月內就可以把它給要把它執行出來對不對"},{"start":72.908,"end":90.89,"text":"沒有錯就是10月17假設立法院三讀通過的話那送請總統公告那這個時間要盡快然後總統公告我們就立即開始啟動所有的相關的作業一個月內就可以開始發放嗎一個月以內可以做那我想說全體的國人都非常的關心這個新的政策"},{"start":91.491,"end":118.195,"text":"因為之前的時候其實有法師他特別想要說要搶救國庫然後提到說要為國家續命專款大家不要領這一萬元那也有些教授他也反應當時的卓院長他也表示說他要來思考一下是不是有一個拒營的選項那現在當然是沒有沒有這個拒營的選項對不對部長沒有這個拒營選項那我想請教一下部長就是說我們現在的國家財政已經到需要民眾來搶救的地步了嗎"},{"start":119.399,"end":133.776,"text":"跟委員報告當時這個民間團體有一個建議是認為是說讓國庫可以有更多的財政能力去做施政的更重要的優先順序是這樣的一個提議的"},{"start":135.377,"end":155.87,"text":"所以說基本上我們看到這一次的特別預算當中的時候5500億裡面舉債的部分大概是1056億其他4000多億大概都是用原本的稅計剩餘所以表示這一次的特別預算裡面的時候其實舉債的比例其實不算高不算高的原因我們來看一下就下一個部分"},{"start":157.212,"end":163.993,"text":"今年的時候我們整個行政院體系裡面有幾項特別預算在執行當中"},{"start":166.728,"end":191.998,"text":"今年104年當然有您這邊所列的新式戰機還有這是為了國防強化國防防空戰力那當然還有總共有六項特別預算在執行對不對特別預算的執行那特別預算基本上第一個為了國防的強化國防理解那我們只在講說因為現在的時候我們總預算當中的時候負債不算高可是特別預算裡面負債是高的"},{"start":192.318,"end":218.736,"text":"可是我們這次針對這個國際經濟情勢這邊的時候舉債的部分其實不算高我們看到今年在執行當中的其他的特別預算當中的時候呢舉債的部分比例都非常非常的高所以我想說在這邊的時候因為當我們在想說要搶救國庫然後當時在考慮要拒領選項這部分的時候我覺得它做很多的在做一些帶風向的一個宣傳啦"},{"start":219.557,"end":226.561,"text":"我這邊最後問一個狀態喔如果說有很多民眾他不領這一萬塊我們最後面剩下的這筆錢到時候會怎麼處理如果民眾沒有領的話這個錢還是會在國庫本來就是在國庫會回國庫嘛對不對本來就在國庫裡那領的話就領出去沒有領的話就是在國庫不會再把它給挪用到其他的目前提出的十一項計畫當中不會喔所有的支出都必須按照預算"},{"start":245.893,"end":267.537,"text":"理解所以如果說有很多民眾他們想自主性的響應這部分的時候基本上這東西就到時候會回國庫對不對好 謝部長我想說就是因為從台積電這邊的一個新的資料我想請教一下勞動部這邊因為目前整個傳產的產業當中的情況不是很好已經連續"},{"start":275.308,"end":294.284,"text":"四個藍燈 已經連續四個藍燈這裡面的時候還包括我們高科技產業的部分高科技其實台灣還是好的可是整個景氣製造業其實是不好的情況的時候然後有很多的一個無薪假的一個情況請教一下次長一下我們目前無薪假的廠商跟人數有多少"},{"start":295.078,"end":320.671,"text":"跟委員報告目前無薪假最近一起的統計大概有8500多人378家左右那其中受到關稅影響的大概有九成那我們其實在這一方面一方面是透過經濟部那一邊會有一些支持企業的方案那就勞動部而言我們是針對無薪假也就是減班休息他還是要付最低工資我們針對這部分協助勞工"},{"start":321.231,"end":338.903,"text":"因為針對無薪假日部分我們也希望在這一次尤其你剛才有特別提到說因為關稅的部分有很多很多的勞工都受到了影響我們希望這邊能夠好好去做那我最後一部分想請教一下經濟部因為我們看到這兩年的時候跟美國的一個貿易順差急序的一個拉伸"},{"start":340.004,"end":356.017,"text":"那針對這部分的時候呢我們現在在關稅這問題當中的時候似乎因為跟美國的一個貿易順差變很多我們也變成被美國很輕鬆的拿捏變成說一定要被脅迫的一個情況針對這個部分的時候我們經濟部有沒有什麼更具體的一個做法"},{"start":356.617,"end":376.532,"text":"報告委員所以我們在這次的特別預算裡面特別編列100億元來針對傳統產業也好或中小微企業也好多元開拓市場這些市場包括了歐盟市場也好或是南向國家的市場或是其他的市場那我們可以除了有一些廠商他可以在海外設立一些據點行銷據點之外"},{"start":378.513,"end":400.23,"text":"OK 這個部分的時候我想說我們其實原本的時候跟大陸的一個貿易順差很高現在很明顯的往下盪所以我們希望說台灣在這部分的時候能夠更多元希望經濟部這邊能夠扮演更做積極的角色好 謝謝鄭振前委員OK好 謝謝部長接下來我們請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請經濟部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時33分）謝謝主席，我想請一下主計總處陳淑姿主計長、財政部莊翠雲部長、經濟部龔明鑫部長，還有勞動部陳明仁常次。"],["主席：請主計長、莊部長、龔部長還有陳次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：首先我想先請教一下主計長，有關普發現金1萬元這部分，10月17日是最快的時間，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個要由財政部……"],["鄭委員正鈐：財政部長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：請財政部長回答。"],["莊部長翠雲：10月……大院三讀通過，這個時間是由大院來做決定的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，立法院其實也希望能夠把普發現金1萬元這部分儘快落實，所以我們今天整個議程走得非常快，召委其實也走得非常快，預計今天、明天能夠把這個部分完成，然後下禮拜送程序委員會，後續就可以送到我們的院會裡面。","針對10月17號這部分，部長這邊有提到1個月內就要把它執行出來，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，10月17日假設立法院三讀通過的話，送請總統公告，這個時間要儘快，總統公告之後我們就立即開始啟動所有的相關作業，前置作業已經在做……"],["鄭委員正鈐：1個月內就可以開始發放？"],["莊部長翠雲：1個月以內可以做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，全體國人都非常關心這個新政策，之前有法師特別講到要搶救國庫，然後提到「國家續命專款」、大家不要領這1萬元，有些教授也響應；當時的卓院長也表示他要來思考一下是不是有一個拒領的選項。現在當然沒有這個拒領的選項，對不對？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有、沒有！"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有這個拒領選項。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，沒有這個選項。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我想請教一下部長，我們現在的國家財政已經到了需要民眾來搶救的地步嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當時這個民間團體有一個建議是認為，讓國庫可以有更多的財政能力去做更重要優先順序的施政，是有這樣的一個提議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：基本上我們看到這一次的特別預算當中，5,500億裡面舉債的部分大概是1,056億，其他四千多億大概都是用原本的歲計賸餘，所以表示這一次特別預算裡面的舉債比例其實不算高。","不算高的原因我們來看一下，今年整個行政院體系裡面有幾項特別預算在執行當中？"],["莊部長翠雲：今年114年當然有您這邊所列的新式戰機，這是為了強化國防海空戰力，當然還有丹娜絲颱風……"],["鄭委員正鈐：總共有6項特別預算在執行，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，特別預算的執行。特別預算基本上第一個，為了強化國防的力量，還有為了災害的重建復原……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，我只是在講說，現在我們總預算當中的負債不算高，可是特別預算裡面負債其實是高的，不過我們這次針對國際經濟情勢這方面的舉債部分其實不算高，但是我們看到今年在執行中的其他特別預算的舉債比例都非常、非常的高。因此當有人在講說要搶救國庫，然後當時在考慮要有拒領選項這部分的時候，我覺得他很大一部份是在做一些帶風向的宣傳。","我這邊最後問一個狀態，如果有很多民眾不領這1萬塊，我們最後面剩下的這筆錢到時候會怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果民眾沒有領的話，這個錢還是會在國庫，本來就是在國庫。"],["鄭委員正鈐：會回國庫嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：本來就在國庫裡，領的話就領出去，沒有領的話就是在國庫。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不會再把它挪用到其他目前提出的11項計畫當中？"],["莊部長翠雲：所有的支出都必須按照預算。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解、理解！如果有很多民眾自主性響應這部分的話，基本上這筆錢到時候就回國庫，對不對？好，謝謝部長。","關於台經院公布的新資料，我想請教一下勞動部。"],["陳次長明仁：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為目前整個傳產產業的情況不是很好，已經連續4個藍燈，這裡面還包括我們高科技產業的部分，高科技部分其實臺灣還是好的，可是在整個製造業景氣不好之下，有很多無薪假的情況。請教一下次長，我們目前無薪假的廠商跟人數有多少？"],["陳次長明仁：跟委員報告，目前無薪假最近一期的統計，大概有八千五百多人、378家左右，其中受到關稅影響的大概有九成。針對這部分，一方面透過經濟部會有一些支持企業的方案；就勞動部而言，針對無薪假──也就是減班休息，這還是要付最低工資，我們針對這部分協助勞工跟企業……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，針對無薪假這部分，我們也希望在這一次……尤其你剛才也有特別提到，因為關稅因素有很多、很多的勞工都受到影響，我們希望你們能夠好好去做。","我最後想請教經濟部，我們看到這兩年跟美國的貿易順差急遽拉升，針對這部分我們現在在關稅這個問題當中，似乎因為跟美國的貿易順差變很多，我們也被美國很輕鬆地拿捏、變成一會被脅迫的情況。針對這個部分，經濟部有沒有什麼更具體的作法？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，所以我們在這次的特別預算裡面特別編列了100億元，針對傳統產業或中小微企業多元開拓市場，這些市場包括了歐盟市場、南向國家市場或是其他的市場，除了廠商可以在海外設立一些行銷據點之外，甚至於拓銷……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，其實原本我們跟大陸的貿易順差很高，現在很明顯地往下down，所以我們希望臺灣在這部分能夠更多元，希望經濟部能夠扮演更積極的角色。"],["龔部長明鑫：是！"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}},{"id":"163864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0233cd0619a8ff02e5fd9b8be7b7b572b1f00580874b155522ce05ac16c0400450105506708a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:25:42 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我想請教一下因為10月1號的時候日本那邊有發一個函給我們說希望可以針對9項汽車零組件調降稅率這上面都有秀出來其中有幾項是調到2到8%然後有4項是免稅這個是日商2025台灣的白皮書我想請教一下日本官方有沒有向我們提出這樣的要求"},{"start":42.15,"end":66.797,"text":"沒有明確的那經濟部有收到日商這樣的建議然後再研議可能因應方式嗎我有看到這樣的報導只是說當初事實上之前因為這個只是汽車零組件嘛汽車零組件如果便宜進來的話我們台灣的這個組裝業者汽車的組裝業者或是我們國產的組裝業者成本可以降低"},{"start":67.697,"end":96.715,"text":"那如果可以回饋消費者這個是我們當初那所以意思就意思就是說部長你是持一個比較正面態度啦那有兩件事情啦我先講完有兩件事情您可能要這個稍微思考也要回復一下第一件事情就是其實以前在2019年的時候立法院就曾經討論過就討論過林組建關稅下降問題但是當時沒有做成決議是因為大家考量到希望製造商就您剛剛講的"},{"start":97.575,"end":114.631,"text":"製造商會受獲益嘛那他有沒有辦法回饋回饋給員工或者消費者嘛譬如說幫員工加薪然後或者是汽車整體的價格降低那目前如果您是正面看待這個事的話那你會考慮跟汽車業者去溝通嗎因為2019年那時候"},{"start":117.116,"end":145.468,"text":"汽車業者沒有很明確的表達回饋給消費者跟員工所以那個後來我們就沒有我知道我是現在問說如果接下來如果日本提出這樣要求然後你也有正面的看待所以接下來會跟汽車廠商去談嗎我們會評估整個台灣的這個汽車業還有汽車領主業整個發展另外我們也會跟汽車業者去談好這是第一件事第二件事因為"},{"start":146.656,"end":158.852,"text":"九項汽車零組件其實台灣也有人在生產所以如果關稅下降也會對他們造成影響這個衝擊你有評估嗎所以我們這個要一併評估我剛剛跟有人報告不能只是這個組裝廠來做評估而已那財政部態度呢"},{"start":161.656,"end":184.403,"text":"因為上一次之前是有評估過如果這樣做的話我們的稅收會增加啦所以財政部態度咧對 是 如果委員所說之前有提過也就是剛剛講過這必須如果要降的話也要把相關的降稅的利益回饋給消費者同時對於產業的影響都要做整體的評估所以您的態度是一樣 我們跟經濟部可以一起合作好 謝謝那接下來請那個教育部長好 謝謝"},{"start":190.643,"end":192.126,"text":"可以幫我時間暫停一下教育部長"},{"start":202.282,"end":223.095,"text":"部長請教一下當然教育的預算我們也都支持但是我們還是想要離期幾件問題第一個這次特別預算因為特別預算通常是因應比較特殊狀況才會編特別預算否則就在年度預算這一次特別預算通通是挹注在高校但是像國民教育也有很多任性的問題譬如說現在缺老師"},{"start":224.136,"end":245.292,"text":"然後那老師的薪水能不能增加或待遇導師費行政費各方面那為什麼你沒有編列特別預算在國教這塊跟我們報告第一個國教那個部分事實上我們內部也有在沒有我說特別預算特別預算因為你這些特別預算全部預注在高教主要就是考慮到這個國際局勢裡面對高等教育的一些衝擊國際局勢會對各種教育有衝擊啊"},{"start":254.665,"end":277.502,"text":"國教的一個部分我們已經內部會有一個不是啦為什麼沒有編特別預算在國教因為我們想要照標準嘛你說如果是國際情勢影響一定高教國教都有啊國家的一個整體的一個這個財政的一個結構我們當然會希望在整個政府的一個各部會的一個這一個團隊裡面我真的非常好奇我覺得如果要講任性的話國教其實"},{"start":278.403,"end":301.111,"text":"現在問題也有一些啦委員所關心的我們國教我們從來沒有這個前所對它的支持那我針對一個部分跟你請教啦因為你這個特別預算裡面有一個是65億啊是是直接補助給學校然後讓學校來運用嘛是但是學校有兩個條件第一個三年不能漲學費第二個補助的金額裡面5%要用在低收入戶中低收入戶或者是"},{"start":302.171,"end":325.737,"text":"因此次國際局勢影響而遭逢生活變故的學生我就請教一下細節要怎麼認定他是不是因為這次國際局勢影響而且遭逢生活變故我們訂定這樣一個補助辦法也跟大學段的校長都討論過他們會去他們會已經第二個低收入戶中低收入戶平常就有補助了嘛"},{"start":326.857,"end":338.764,"text":"那請問一下這個是額外的還是他可以領兩份是額外的因為他可能衝擊到學校的治理好 謝謝足球哥再給我一分鐘30秒請內政部長謝謝委員關心請劉部長請30秒謝謝"},{"start":358.288,"end":380.56,"text":"部長因為這個外界對你有些質疑我就給你時間讓您這個說明一下因為有人在講說在9月20幾號有一個錄音檔裡面你有提到說有一個災民怎麼坐在坐在牆上還是屋頂上看風景後來發現說有人說那個其實是他在聽你的指示在垂直避難這個是不是有點在指責災民的意思"},{"start":380.82,"end":389.744,"text":"報告委員 我的立場都一樣不管是在中央或在地方如果有這樣子的假造謠言的話我們就一律移送到地檢署整備我是說讓你來說嘛請把全文都聽完我後續的只是說請很多人過來協助他趕快離開現場"},{"start":398.523,"end":420.962,"text":"所以到底有沒有說我還是跟委員報告因為你所知道的也是片段的資據所以讓你完整說嘛因為時間不夠委員主席已經站出來了報告委員那大家現在想說哇 連質疑一下就要送辦所以我就說現在利用這個機會讓您跟大家說明清楚不是你的部分我現在說的是在網路上流傳是被片段剪接的那應該是怎麼樣"},{"start":421.783,"end":440.554,"text":"既然片段剪接我希望他們有全文如果能夠照燈是最好那因為我們現在時間有限沒有辦法全文照燈的話我就希望我們把我們在災害應變中心裡面的全文包含一項資訊全部移送給地檢署來偵辦因為這樣有第三者比較公正的立場結果你也不敢完整呈現謝謝抱歉你講的是錯的OK 好好 謝謝葉英之委員部長請回現在請鄭正前委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時25分）麻煩請經濟部長跟財政部長。"],["主席：好，請龔部長跟莊部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我想請教一下，10月1號的時候日本那邊有發一個函給我們，希望可以針對九項汽車零組件調降稅率，在這上面都有秀出來，其中有幾項是調2%到8%，有四項是免稅，這是日商2025年的臺灣白皮書，我想請教一下，日本官方有沒有向我們提出這樣的要求？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有明確的。"],["葉委員元之：還沒有明確？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，至少我沒有收到。"],["葉委員元之：經濟部有收到日商這樣的建議，在研議可能的因應方式嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我有看到這樣的報導，有啦。"],["葉委員元之：有這樣的報導，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為這個只是汽車零組件，汽車零組件如果便宜進來的話，我們臺灣的汽車組裝業者或是我們國產的組裝業者，成本可以降低，如果可以回饋給消費者，這個是我們當初……"],["葉委員元之：OK，所以意思就是部長，你是持一個比較正面的態度……"],["龔部長明鑫：但是……"],["葉委員元之：我先講完，有兩件事情，您可能要稍微思考，也要回復一下，第一件事情就是，其實以前在2019年的時候，立法院就曾經討論過……"],["龔部長明鑫：有、有、有，我就是要講這個事。"],["葉委員元之：對，就討論過這個零組件關稅下降的問題，但是當時沒有作成決議，是因為大家考量到希望製造商，就是您剛剛講的，製造商會獲利嘛……"],["龔部長明鑫：獲益，回饋給消費者。"],["葉委員元之：它有沒有辦法回饋給員工或是消費者，譬如說幫員工加薪，或者是汽車整體的價格降低。如果您是正面看待這個事的話，你會考慮跟汽車業者去溝通嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為2019年那時候，汽車業者沒有很明確表達會回饋給消費者跟員工，所以後來我們就沒有……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我現在是問，如果接下來日本提出這樣的要求，您也有正面的看待，接下來會跟汽車廠商去談嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會評估整個臺灣的汽車業還有汽車零組件業的整個發展，另外我們也會跟汽車業者來討論。"],["葉委員元之：會跟汽車業者去討論？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，也會討論。"],["葉委員元之：好，這是第一件事。第二件事情，因為九項汽車零組件其實在臺灣也有人在生產，所以如果關稅下降也會對他們造成影響啊，這個衝擊你有評估嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，所以我們要一併評估，我剛剛跟委員報告，不能只是以組裝廠來做評估而已。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。財政部的態度呢？因為之前是有評估過，如果這樣做的話，我們的稅收會增加，所以財政部的態度呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，如委員所說，之前有提過，也就是剛剛講的，如果要降的話，也要把相關的降稅利益回饋給消費者，同時對於產業的影響都要做整體的評估。"],["葉委員元之：所以您的態度是？"],["莊部長翠雲：一樣，我們跟經濟部可以一起合作。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。接下來請教育部長，可以幫我時間暫停一下，請教育部長。"],["主席：鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，請教一下，當然教育的預算我們也都支持，但是我們還是想要釐清幾個問題，第一個，有關這次的特別預算，因為特別預算通常是因應特殊狀況，才會編特別預算，否則就放在年度預算嘛。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：這一次特別預算通通是挹注在高教，但是像國民教育也有很多韌性的問題，譬如說現在缺老師，老師的薪水能不能增加，或是待遇的部分，像是導師費、行政費等各方面，為什麼你沒有編列特別預算在國教這一塊呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，第一個，國教的部分，事實上我們內部也已經在研議……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我說特別預算啦，因為這次特別預算全部挹注在高教嘛。"],["鄭部長英耀：因為這次主要就是考慮到國際局勢對高等教育的衝擊，我們也會視……"],["葉委員元之：國際局勢會對各種教育有衝擊啊。"],["鄭部長英耀：國教的部分，我們內部會有……"],["葉委員元之：不是啦，為什麼沒有編特別預算在國教？因為我們想要知道標準嘛，你說因應國際情勢影響，一定是高教、國教都會受到影響。"],["鄭部長英耀：國家整體的財政結構，我們當然會希望在整個政府各部會的團隊裡面……"],["葉委員元之：好啦、好啦。部長，我真的非常好奇啦，我覺得如果要講韌性的話，其實現在國教也有一些問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員所關心的國教，我們從來沒有減少對它的支持。"],["葉委員元之：我針對一個部分跟你請教，因為這個特別預算裡面有一個是65億是直接補助給學校，讓學校來運用，但是學校有兩個條件：第一個，三年不能漲學費；第二個，補助的金額裡面5%要用在低收入戶、中低收入戶或是因此次國際局勢影響而遭逢生活變故的學生。我就請教細節，要怎麼認定他是不是因為這次國際局勢影響而且遭逢生活變故？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們訂定這樣一個補助辦法，也跟大學端的校長都討論過，他們會逐一的去……"],["葉委員元之：他們會釐清。第二個，低收入戶、中低收入戶平常就有補助了，請問一下這個是額外的還是……他可以領兩份？"],["鄭部長英耀：是額外的，因為他可能衝擊到學校的……"],["葉委員元之：額外的，就是在平常之外，另外還可以再領，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。主席，可不可以再給我1分鐘就好？"],["主席：30秒。"],["葉委員元之：30秒，請內政部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：請劉部長。30秒喔，時間到就……"],["葉委員元之：30秒，謝謝。部長，因為外界對你有些質疑，我就給你時間讓您說明一下，因為有人講說在9月二十幾號有一個錄音檔裡面你有提到說有一個災民怎麼坐在牆上還是屋頂上看風景，後來發現有人說其實他是聽您的指示在垂直避難，這是不是有點在指責災民的意思？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我的立場都一樣，不管是在中央或在地方，如果有這樣的假造謠言的話，我們就一律移送到地檢署偵辦，因為我後續的指示……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，所以我是說讓你來說嘛，所以這個是謠言是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，請把全文都聽完，我後續的指示是，請很多人過來協助他趕快離開現場。"],["葉委員元之：所以您到底有沒有說……"],["劉部長世芳：我還是跟委員報告，因為你所知道的也是片段的字句，所以我……"],["葉委員元之：所以讓你完整說嘛，因為……"],["劉部長世芳：因為時間不夠，主席已經站出來了。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你動不動就說送辦，大家現在想說連質疑一下就要送辦……"],["劉部長世芳：不是，不是你的部分……"],["葉委員元之：所以我就說，現在利用這個機會讓您跟大家說明清楚嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：不是你的部分，我在說的是在網路上流傳的是被片段剪接的……"],["葉委員元之：那應該是怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：既然片段剪接，我希望他們有全文如果能夠照登是最好，因為我們現在時間有限，沒有辦法全文照登的話，我就希望把我們在災害應變中心裡面的全文，包括影像資訊全部移送給地檢署來偵辦，因為第三者會有比較公正的立場。謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：好啦，部長，沒關係啦，這個其實本來就是……因為主席站起來了，本來就是給你機會讓你完整呈現嘛，結果你也不敢完整呈現。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝葉委員。"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，你講的是錯的。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","現在請鄭正鈐委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}