{"total":{"value":31,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-10-09"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"16933","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16933","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6854a1b1968cb0ca4a16b50cf8b0353527f2eb94a68550f7b5b53204dbbdfcf1db45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-09T08:35:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:59:00+08:00","duration":15786,"影片長度":"04:23:06","委員發言時間":"08:35:54 - 12:59:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1565.1534687500002,"end":1586.6522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1587.5128437500002,"end":1589.9090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1591.5965937500002,"end":1592.1534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1593.2672187500002,"end":1594.5497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1596.7772187500002,"end":1600.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1601.9747187500002,"end":1604.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1605.9403437500002,"end":1609.3153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1610.1590937500002,"end":1617.2128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1617.8203437500001,"end":1622.4103437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1622.98409375,"end":1627.0003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1627.91159375,"end":1630.8140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1639.74096875,"end":1657.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1657.3922187500002,"end":1722.4790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1722.71534375,"end":1766.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1766.7928437500002,"end":1789.9790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1790.7890937500001,"end":1810.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1811.3259687500001,"end":1836.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1837.16159375,"end":1878.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1878.52221875,"end":1899.0253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1899.8184687500002,"end":1960.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1962.0028437500002,"end":1962.8634687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1963.9097187500001,"end":1968.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1971.19971875,"end":1987.7709687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1988.1253437500002,"end":1991.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1991.9390937500002,"end":2000.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2005.5740937500002,"end":2006.9747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2007.6497187500001,"end":2008.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2015.1928437500003,"end":2015.7328437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2015.7328437500003,"end":2046.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2047.7615937500002,"end":2051.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2051.64284375,"end":2058.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2058.71346875,"end":2069.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2065.9697187500005,"end":2066.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2067.18471875,"end":2100.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2100.3272187500006,"end":2103.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2104.68096875,"end":2105.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2104.69784375,"end":2106.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2106.55409375,"end":2112.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2112.4265937500004,"end":2119.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2116.1053437500004,"end":2116.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2116.1559687500003,"end":2116.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2116.18971875,"end":2116.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2119.3115937500006,"end":2119.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2119.8515937500006,"end":2120.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2120.76284375,"end":2133.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2133.9928437500002,"end":2143.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2143.2909687500005,"end":2205.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2206.28534375,"end":2210.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2210.40284375,"end":2213.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2214.1659687500005,"end":2218.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2218.4522187500006,"end":2242.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2243.0897187500004,"end":2243.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2243.71409375,"end":2272.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2273.0428437500004,"end":2291.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2291.94284375,"end":2295.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2293.9678437500006,"end":2294.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2295.5709687500002,"end":2315.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2315.5340937500005,"end":2322.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2322.79034375,"end":2329.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2328.40971875,"end":2333.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2333.5397187500002,"end":2343.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2343.9178437500004,"end":2362.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2362.9022187500004,"end":2369.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2370.15846875,"end":2371.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2370.64784375,"end":2376.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2376.5203437500004,"end":2384.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2385.54846875,"end":2418.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2418.97784375,"end":2442.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2440.32471875,"end":2440.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2441.2022187500006,"end":2459.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2444.00346875,"end":2444.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2457.13221875,"end":2466.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2467.12221875,"end":2467.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2468.9615937500002,"end":2473.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2473.8047187500006,"end":2493.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2493.0759687500004,"end":2493.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2493.10971875,"end":2493.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2493.4472187500005,"end":2495.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2495.10096875,"end":2519.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2520.4472187500005,"end":2529.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2529.6778437500006,"end":2533.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2529.7115937500002,"end":2529.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2529.94784375,"end":2530.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2533.2722187500003,"end":2535.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2536.4615937500002,"end":2542.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2542.8065937500005,"end":2548.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2548.7634687500004,"end":2567.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2567.17409375,"end":2588.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2588.47034375,"end":2591.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2591.05221875,"end":2591.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2591.47409375,"end":2592.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2592.36846875,"end":2597.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2598.0722187500005,"end":2602.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2602.9490937500004,"end":2625.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2611.47096875,"end":2613.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2625.62909375,"end":2628.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2627.0128437500007,"end":2627.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2628.34596875,"end":2645.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2645.17034375,"end":2645.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2645.9128437500003,"end":2646.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2646.60471875,"end":2646.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2646.85784375,"end":2655.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2647.0097187500005,"end":2647.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2654.4684687500003,"end":2655.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2658.4678437500006,"end":2662.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2673.1153437500006,"end":2675.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2675.5622187500003,"end":2676.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2681.51909375,"end":2682.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2681.62034375,"end":2682.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2682.97034375,"end":2683.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2683.67909375,"end":2718.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2719.1503437500005,"end":2724.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2722.55909375,"end":2722.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2725.56284375,"end":2726.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2726.96346875,"end":2755.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2734.30409375,"end":2734.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2734.37159375,"end":2734.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2734.4559687500005,"end":2734.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2738.03346875,"end":2738.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2739.53534375,"end":2739.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2744.73284375,"end":2745.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2750.2003437500007,"end":2751.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2751.0272187500004,"end":2751.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2751.2634687500004,"end":2751.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2751.36471875,"end":2751.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2755.14471875,"end":2755.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2755.51596875,"end":2768.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2760.9159687500005,"end":2761.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2768.8640937500004,"end":2769.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2769.79221875,"end":2805.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2776.4578437500004,"end":2776.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2805.4997187500003,"end":2815.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2815.5740937500004,"end":2822.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2821.80096875,"end":2822.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2822.52659375,"end":2828.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2825.78346875,"end":2826.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2828.21346875,"end":2834.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2832.3984687500006,"end":2832.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2834.9297187500006,"end":2858.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2858.0653437500005,"end":2880.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2879.7497187500003,"end":2880.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2880.9815937500007,"end":2886.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2886.83721875,"end":2887.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2886.9890937500004,"end":2888.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2888.4403437500005,"end":2888.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2888.77784375,"end":2888.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2888.8622187500005,"end":2889.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2889.4022187500004,"end":2897.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2896.8272187500006,"end":2899.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2900.1853437500004,"end":2915.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2914.98471875,"end":2916.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2915.96346875,"end":2923.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2925.59909375,"end":2946.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2947.0303437500006,"end":2948.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2948.4140937500006,"end":2949.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2949.4772187500002,"end":2953.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2953.6959687500002,"end":2958.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2958.3365937500002,"end":2969.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2969.42346875,"end":2986.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2986.95659375,"end":2989.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2989.53846875,"end":3001.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2990.8884687500004,"end":2991.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3002.1609687500004,"end":3032.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3032.08034375,"end":3032.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3032.33346875,"end":3036.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3032.3503437500003,"end":3032.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3036.97409375,"end":3070.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3044.85471875,"end":3044.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3044.92221875,"end":3045.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3065.1553437500006,"end":3065.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3070.0997187500006,"end":3110.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3109.94159375,"end":3118.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3110.6334687500002,"end":3111.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3115.6959687500002,"end":3115.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3118.9190937500007,"end":3152.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3152.56784375,"end":3176.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3177.27284375,"end":3231.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3231.64409375,"end":3251.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3251.94471875,"end":3254.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3251.9784687500005,"end":3252.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3255.20159375,"end":3301.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3266.23784375,"end":3266.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3266.5078437500006,"end":3266.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3272.2790937500004,"end":3272.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3272.73471875,"end":3272.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3301.97909375,"end":3310.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3305.5059687500006,"end":3305.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3311.07471875,"end":3321.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3312.0534687500003,"end":3313.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3320.7272187500002,"end":3335.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3321.7565937500003,"end":3321.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3334.0584687500004,"end":3348.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3336.4209687500006,"end":3336.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3348.4022187500004,"end":3361.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3361.5309687500003,"end":3371.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3372.65159375,"end":3405.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3376.39784375,"end":3376.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3404.19096875,"end":3404.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3405.08534375,"end":3426.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3426.4659687500007,"end":3426.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3426.6178437500002,"end":3457.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3428.28846875,"end":3430.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3430.4315937500005,"end":3430.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3431.07284375,"end":3431.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3431.0897187500004,"end":3431.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3457.3134687500005,"end":3466.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3466.7634687500004,"end":3481.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3481.56284375,"end":3481.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3481.74846875,"end":3481.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3481.93409375,"end":3482.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3481.9509687500004,"end":3481.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3482.0353437500007,"end":3483.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3482.8622187500005,"end":3484.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3483.5372187500006,"end":3483.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3484.0772187500006,"end":3484.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3487.2497187500003,"end":3492.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3502.5722187500005,"end":3505.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3508.37721875,"end":3535.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3535.7653437500003,"end":3536.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3536.0353437500007,"end":3542.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3542.92034375,"end":3556.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3548.45534375,"end":3548.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3549.7715937500006,"end":3550.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3553.41659375,"end":3554.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3556.2684687500005,"end":3562.6640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3562.9678437500006,"end":3565.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3563.22096875,"end":3563.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3564.80721875,"end":3569.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3568.0303437500006,"end":3571.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3571.8947187500007,"end":3577.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3575.57346875,"end":3592.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3581.5134687500004,"end":3582.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3582.7284687500005,"end":3583.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3585.41159375,"end":3588.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3590.35596875,"end":3591.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3591.6384687500004,"end":3595.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3593.4609687500006,"end":3593.8322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3594.0515937500004,"end":3594.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3594.15284375,"end":3594.7940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3595.5703437500006,"end":3603.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3600.8690937500005,"end":3642.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3610.11659375,"end":3611.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3613.5928437500006,"end":3614.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3614.3184687500006,"end":3614.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3643.25909375,"end":3645.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3645.2165937500004,"end":3645.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3647.00534375,"end":3648.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3648.7097187500003,"end":3653.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3653.4178437500004,"end":3655.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3653.45159375,"end":3658.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3655.8984687500006,"end":3656.3878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3659.3747187500003,"end":3662.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3663.1884687500005,"end":3675.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3675.0009687500005,"end":3690.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3684.29909375,"end":3684.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3690.64409375,"end":3697.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3697.69784375,"end":3698.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3698.6090937500003,"end":3703.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3703.40159375,"end":3703.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3704.00909375,"end":3741.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3740.72909375,"end":3760.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3760.72596875,"end":3775.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3776.09909375,"end":3781.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3781.3809687500006,"end":3802.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3803.4197187500004,"end":3804.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3804.0272187500004,"end":3837.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3804.55034375,"end":3804.8878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3837.74346875,"end":3856.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3857.3690937500005,"end":3857.3859687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3857.3859687500008,"end":3864.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3864.2878437500003,"end":3870.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3870.0084687500002,"end":3880.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3876.0665937500007,"end":3877.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3878.66534375,"end":3879.0197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3879.08721875,"end":3884.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3884.21721875,"end":3884.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3884.2509687500005,"end":3886.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3886.15784375,"end":3894.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3886.1915937500007,"end":3886.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3894.03846875,"end":3918.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3917.1065937500007,"end":3933.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3934.48784375,"end":3935.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3934.6903437500005,"end":3939.5840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3939.5840937500006,"end":3952.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3952.7634687500004,"end":3966.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3966.11159375,"end":3973.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3973.7897187500002,"end":3985.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3985.65284375,"end":3992.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3992.03159375,"end":3998.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3998.19096875,"end":3998.7140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3998.7140937500008,"end":4014.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4014.22221875,"end":4028.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4014.2390937500004,"end":4016.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4019.2509687500005,"end":4019.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4029.7472187500007,"end":4030.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4030.43909375,"end":4030.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4030.5740937500004,"end":4032.4640937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4031.33346875,"end":4033.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4033.0040937500007,"end":4033.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4033.49346875,"end":4033.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4033.9659687500007,"end":4042.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4035.7040937500005,"end":4038.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4042.96034375,"end":4047.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4047.36471875,"end":4047.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4048.0059687500006,"end":4053.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4053.9628437500005,"end":4054.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4054.0303437500006,"end":4054.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4054.18221875,"end":4054.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4054.3678437500002,"end":4054.4015937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4054.4015937500008,"end":4056.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4055.6672187500008,"end":4063.0584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4063.46346875,"end":4063.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4063.6490937500002,"end":4071.2765937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4065.6403437500003,"end":4065.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4071.46221875,"end":4077.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4077.0478437500005,"end":4077.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4078.0603437500004,"end":4086.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4086.05909375,"end":4090.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4090.4803437500004,"end":4098.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4098.5634687500005,"end":4098.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4099.03596875,"end":4099.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4099.05284375,"end":4100.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4099.069718750001,"end":4105.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4104.975968750001,"end":4105.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4105.98846875,"end":4107.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4107.2372187500005,"end":4107.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4108.587218750001,"end":4117.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4118.340968750001,"end":4124.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4122.880343750001,"end":4147.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4130.03534375,"end":4130.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4130.052218750001,"end":4131.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4131.452843749999,"end":4133.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4133.03909375,"end":4134.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4147.028468750001,"end":4152.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4147.14659375,"end":4148.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4152.934718750001,"end":4159.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4152.95159375,"end":4154.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4159.920968750001,"end":4172.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4160.17409375,"end":4162.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4172.374718749999,"end":4179.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4179.310343749999,"end":4184.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4184.1365937499995,"end":4185.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4184.2040937500005,"end":4188.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4185.975968750001,"end":4189.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4190.059718750001,"end":4191.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4193.569718750001,"end":4194.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4193.73846875,"end":4193.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4199.02034375,"end":4200.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4211.794718749999,"end":4212.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4212.554093750001,"end":4214.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4216.5028437500005,"end":4220.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4222.56096875,"end":4223.050343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4223.050343749999,"end":4223.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4224.33284375,"end":4224.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4227.01596875,"end":4292.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4293.06471875,"end":4318.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4319.35596875,"end":4319.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4319.372843749999,"end":4339.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4337.02409375,"end":4338.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4340.07846875,"end":4357.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4357.628468749999,"end":4375.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4375.78596875,"end":4384.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4377.186593750001,"end":4378.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4379.430968750001,"end":4379.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4379.49846875,"end":4379.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4379.852843750001,"end":4379.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4385.0165937500005,"end":4403.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4403.96721875,"end":4422.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4411.71284375,"end":4412.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4422.4959687499995,"end":4427.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4422.52971875,"end":4422.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4428.01409375,"end":4442.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4439.45534375,"end":4439.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4441.19346875,"end":4441.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4442.340968750001,"end":4450.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4450.03596875,"end":4457.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4454.659718749999,"end":4455.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4456.212218750001,"end":4457.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4457.49471875,"end":4465.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4463.856593750001,"end":4472.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4473.222218749999,"end":4473.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4473.9647187499995,"end":4475.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4475.939093749999,"end":4494.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4486.84034375,"end":4487.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4494.029093749999,"end":4494.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4494.045968750001,"end":4494.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4494.0965937500005,"end":4541.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4519.64534375,"end":4519.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4519.66221875,"end":4521.079718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4521.079718749999,"end":4521.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4542.20721875,"end":4543.675343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4543.675343749999,"end":4548.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4543.70909375,"end":4544.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4549.27784375,"end":4556.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4557.52971875,"end":4558.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4558.03596875,"end":4574.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4575.029093749999,"end":4576.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4577.17221875,"end":4591.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4591.83659375,"end":4617.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4603.09221875,"end":4604.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4615.64721875,"end":4625.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4625.4853437500005,"end":4626.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4626.02534375,"end":4637.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4632.52221875,"end":4633.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4637.92221875,"end":4647.878468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4637.989718750001,"end":4638.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4646.1572187500005,"end":4664.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4651.52346875,"end":4652.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4665.10784375,"end":4671.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4671.52034375,"end":4671.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4671.95909375,"end":4671.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4671.975968750001,"end":4700.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4689.694718750001,"end":4690.065968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4699.51596875,"end":4700.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4701.4228437500005,"end":4721.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4722.364718750001,"end":4750.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4750.545968750001,"end":4758.595343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4756.1990937499995,"end":4770.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4768.9228437500005,"end":4781.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4781.9334687499995,"end":4787.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4788.02534375,"end":4790.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4791.2147187499995,"end":4828.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4828.50846875,"end":4828.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4829.571593750001,"end":4829.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4829.58846875,"end":4862.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4863.642218749999,"end":4865.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4865.059718750001,"end":4865.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4865.83596875,"end":4866.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4866.696593750001,"end":4866.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4866.91596875,"end":4866.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4866.94971875,"end":4867.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4867.00034375,"end":4868.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4868.63721875,"end":4875.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4875.032843749999,"end":4884.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4876.0790937500005,"end":4876.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4884.887843750001,"end":4884.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4884.921593749999,"end":4884.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4884.972218750001,"end":4885.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4885.00596875,"end":4885.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4885.022843750001,"end":4885.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4885.09034375,"end":4885.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4885.208468750001,"end":4885.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4885.79909375,"end":4885.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4886.27159375,"end":4910.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4911.19596875,"end":4912.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4912.731593750001,"end":4941.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4926.16409375,"end":4926.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4926.231593750001,"end":4926.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4926.839093750001,"end":4927.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4940.102843750001,"end":4940.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4941.0478437500005,"end":5004.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5004.599093750001,"end":5028.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5028.62909375,"end":5030.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5030.82284375,"end":5033.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5033.74221875,"end":5034.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5035.530968749999,"end":5041.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5041.8759687500005,"end":5044.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5044.98096875,"end":5067.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5068.116593750001,"end":5068.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5068.97721875,"end":5074.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5073.53346875,"end":5086.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5086.03784375,"end":5110.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5111.08034375,"end":5113.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5113.965968750001,"end":5114.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5114.69159375,"end":5123.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5123.02784375,"end":5124.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5123.702843749999,"end":5124.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5124.597218750001,"end":5124.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5124.76596875,"end":5142.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5124.782843749999,"end":5125.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5143.260968750001,"end":5153.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5154.600968750001,"end":5157.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5159.5115937499995,"end":5180.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5181.66846875,"end":5187.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5188.80659375,"end":5189.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5189.97096875,"end":5190.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5191.18596875,"end":5204.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5204.55096875,"end":5206.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5206.03596875,"end":5206.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5206.626593749999,"end":5206.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5206.812218749999,"end":5214.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5214.96284375,"end":5225.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5225.50971875,"end":5228.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5229.1884687500005,"end":5239.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5229.20534375,"end":5229.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5230.622843749999,"end":5231.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5232.44534375,"end":5232.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5239.9715937500005,"end":5246.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5240.17409375,"end":5242.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5246.02971875,"end":5292.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5286.58034375,"end":5287.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5292.419093750001,"end":5292.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5292.43596875,"end":5292.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5292.85784375,"end":5292.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5292.975968750001,"end":5314.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5299.52346875,"end":5299.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5314.18784375,"end":5324.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5323.5028437500005,"end":5326.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5326.0340937500005,"end":5326.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5326.540343750001,"end":5327.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5327.02971875,"end":5327.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5327.97471875,"end":5328.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5328.02534375,"end":5328.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5328.970343749999,"end":5329.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5329.03784375,"end":5329.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5329.88159375,"end":5329.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5330.944718750001,"end":5342.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5342.858468750001,"end":5382.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5343.3309687500005,"end":5343.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5343.34784375,"end":5343.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5382.00846875,"end":5382.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5382.497843749999,"end":5382.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5382.514718750001,"end":5382.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5382.970343749999,"end":5388.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5387.69534375,"end":5388.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5388.94409375,"end":5391.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5390.243468750001,"end":5390.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5390.2772187499995,"end":5390.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5391.5428437499995,"end":5415.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5415.35346875,"end":5416.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5416.97346875,"end":5446.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5417.564093749999,"end":5417.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5418.23909375,"end":5418.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5418.272843750001,"end":5418.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5446.74096875,"end":5446.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5447.2978437500005,"end":5458.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5458.435343749999,"end":5474.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5474.58471875,"end":5479.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5479.731593750001,"end":5529.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5531.08221875,"end":5539.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5539.772843750001,"end":5552.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5553.94784375,"end":5557.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5558.200343750001,"end":5560.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5568.89909375,"end":5573.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5578.821593750001,"end":5579.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5579.31096875,"end":5579.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5579.564093749999,"end":5579.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5579.7665937500005,"end":5623.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5623.42221875,"end":5624.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5624.282843749999,"end":5688.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5688.66096875,"end":5698.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5698.88721875,"end":5710.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5711.2059687500005,"end":5746.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5746.491593750001,"end":5950.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5765.35784375,"end":5765.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5950.5947187500005,"end":5950.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5951.08409375,"end":5965.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5965.83284375,"end":6004.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6004.864718750001,"end":6010.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6009.319718750001,"end":6009.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6009.85971875,"end":6009.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6009.99471875,"end":6010.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6010.56846875,"end":6095.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6095.77034375,"end":6098.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6099.0272187499995,"end":6114.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6114.80534375,"end":6116.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6117.99471875,"end":6137.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6138.497843749999,"end":6149.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6149.92221875,"end":6172.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6172.534718750001,"end":6176.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6174.57659375,"end":6174.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6174.6103437500005,"end":6175.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6177.732218749999,"end":6182.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6195.80534375,"end":6203.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6204.040343750001,"end":6204.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6209.25471875,"end":6222.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6222.7040937500005,"end":6224.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6224.796593749999,"end":6232.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6233.11596875,"end":6238.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6238.83659375,"end":6239.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6240.01784375,"end":6243.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6243.932843750001,"end":6244.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6245.45159375,"end":6247.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6247.4090937500005,"end":6248.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6249.180968750001,"end":6251.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6251.27346875,"end":6252.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6252.77534375,"end":6256.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6256.622843749999,"end":6264.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6265.262843750001,"end":6267.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6268.55346875,"end":6270.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6270.409718750001,"end":6272.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6273.53159375,"end":6275.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6276.19784375,"end":6278.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6278.577218750001,"end":6278.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6279.370343750001,"end":6281.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6282.5428437499995,"end":6284.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6285.124718749999,"end":6290.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6290.74409375,"end":6292.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6292.9715937500005,"end":6294.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6294.591593749999,"end":6303.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6304.497218750001,"end":6311.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6313.542218750001,"end":6314.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6314.0653437500005,"end":6314.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6315.01034375,"end":6316.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6316.680968750001,"end":6317.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6318.14909375,"end":6319.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6320.140343749999,"end":6325.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6325.74284375,"end":6328.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6328.9490937499995,"end":6333.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6334.19721875,"end":6338.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6338.77034375,"end":6345.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6348.321593750001,"end":6348.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6348.3553437499995,"end":6349.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6349.97534375,"end":6350.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6351.94971875,"end":6352.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6352.860968750001,"end":6358.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6358.5478437500005,"end":6363.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6363.6103437500005,"end":6365.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6366.15846875,"end":6367.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6368.30159375,"end":6369.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6369.61784375,"end":6370.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6371.22096875,"end":6371.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6372.7059687500005,"end":6376.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6376.5028437500005,"end":6377.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6378.595343750001,"end":6379.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6380.08034375,"end":6380.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6381.58221875,"end":6382.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6382.965968750001,"end":6385.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6385.88534375,"end":6387.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6388.14659375,"end":6390.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6390.34034375,"end":6392.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6393.44534375,"end":6395.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6396.314093750001,"end":6397.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6398.575343750001,"end":6406.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6408.3290937500005,"end":6409.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6409.79721875,"end":6418.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6418.65659375,"end":6419.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6420.7997187500005,"end":6422.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6422.6728437500005,"end":6424.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6425.609093749999,"end":6427.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6427.43159375,"end":6427.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6428.292218750001,"end":6431.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6430.84034375,"end":6433.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6435.548468750001,"end":6436.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6436.84784375,"end":6439.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6439.210343750001,"end":6441.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6441.690968750001,"end":6444.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6444.34034375,"end":6446.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6446.58471875,"end":6448.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6449.099093750001,"end":6451.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6452.06909375,"end":6453.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6453.638468749999,"end":6460.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6460.92846875,"end":6463.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6465.14721875,"end":6465.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6465.180968750001,"end":6465.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6465.366593750001,"end":6465.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6466.22721875,"end":6469.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6466.32846875,"end":6466.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6469.062218749999,"end":6470.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6469.75409375,"end":6470.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6470.54721875,"end":6470.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6470.86784375,"end":6470.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6470.96909375,"end":6474.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6475.154093749999,"end":6476.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6476.6728437500005,"end":6478.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6479.237843750001,"end":6479.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6480.030968749999,"end":6480.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6481.347218750001,"end":6481.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6481.80284375,"end":6483.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6483.54096875,"end":6484.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6485.481593750001,"end":6492.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6493.210343750001,"end":6500.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6500.26409375,"end":6502.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6502.84596875,"end":6503.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6503.87534375,"end":6513.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6514.2197187500005,"end":6520.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6521.239718750001,"end":6522.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6522.72471875,"end":6524.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6525.05346875,"end":6534.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6534.58784375,"end":6539.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6539.717843750001,"end":6547.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6547.69971875,"end":6548.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6549.01596875,"end":6549.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6549.083468750001,"end":6550.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6550.38284375,"end":6551.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6552.087218750001,"end":6556.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6556.390343749999,"end":6567.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6567.67971875,"end":6573.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6573.417218750001,"end":6575.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6575.7459687499995,"end":6591.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6592.772843750001,"end":6593.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6594.224093750001,"end":6595.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6595.911593750001,"end":6597.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6597.599093750001,"end":6600.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6600.67034375,"end":6607.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6607.622843749999,"end":6612.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6613.022843750001,"end":6623.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6625.42596875,"end":6626.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6628.581593750001,"end":6633.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6634.589093750001,"end":6636.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6636.968468749999,"end":6637.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6638.11596875,"end":6643.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6645.929093750001,"end":6649.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6649.253468750001,"end":6654.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6654.01221875,"end":6657.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6657.15096875,"end":6664.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6659.715968750001,"end":6661.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6662.39909375,"end":6664.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6664.50846875,"end":6666.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6666.34784375,"end":6671.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6673.215968750001,"end":6677.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6677.82284375,"end":6680.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6680.40471875,"end":6682.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6682.14284375,"end":6682.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6682.80096875,"end":6686.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6686.02409375,"end":6686.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6686.2772187499995,"end":6686.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6686.44596875,"end":6686.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6686.63159375,"end":6693.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6693.56721875,"end":6698.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6699.270968750001,"end":6700.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6701.565968750001,"end":6705.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6706.1053437499995,"end":6706.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6707.100968750001,"end":6712.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6710.155343750001,"end":6710.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6712.349093750001,"end":6717.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6712.38284375,"end":6712.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6719.335343750001,"end":6721.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6723.09846875,"end":6724.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6724.904093749999,"end":6729.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6730.1522187499995,"end":6731.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6730.32096875,"end":6730.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6731.21534375,"end":6734.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6733.493468750001,"end":6736.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6737.22284375,"end":6743.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6739.93971875,"end":6742.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6743.280968749999,"end":6754.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6754.84034375,"end":6765.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6765.2353437500005,"end":6765.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6765.5897187499995,"end":6774.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6774.887843750001,"end":6776.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6776.87909375,"end":6777.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6777.43596875,"end":6779.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6779.562218749999,"end":6779.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6779.5790937500005,"end":6780.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6780.15284375,"end":6781.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6781.84034375,"end":6786.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6787.020968750001,"end":6788.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6789.29909375,"end":6792.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6792.370343750001,"end":6797.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6797.669093750001,"end":6800.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6801.29721875,"end":6814.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6815.08409375,"end":6816.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6817.497218750001,"end":6819.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6820.4334687499995,"end":6822.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6822.9647187499995,"end":6823.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6823.09971875,"end":6827.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6828.465968750001,"end":6828.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6829.259093750001,"end":6830.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6831.419093750001,"end":6835.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6835.55346875,"end":6841.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6842.16846875,"end":6844.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6844.9697187500005,"end":6845.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6845.138468749999,"end":6848.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6848.327843749999,"end":6864.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6864.747218750001,"end":6867.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6867.784718750001,"end":6869.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6871.581593750001,"end":6872.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6872.374718749999,"end":6873.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6873.876593750001,"end":6876.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6877.0322187500005,"end":6885.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6885.90846875,"end":6887.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6888.11909375,"end":6889.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6889.637843750001,"end":6892.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6892.23659375,"end":6894.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6895.864718750001,"end":6896.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6896.8603437500005,"end":6897.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6897.737843750001,"end":6911.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6911.811593750001,"end":6920.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6919.827218750001,"end":6928.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6928.60221875,"end":6930.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6930.779093749999,"end":6932.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6932.82096875,"end":6935.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6935.68971875,"end":6936.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6938.27159375,"end":6939.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6939.233468750001,"end":6940.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6940.46534375,"end":6940.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6940.70159375,"end":6942.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6943.1990937499995,"end":6945.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6945.831593750001,"end":6947.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6948.24471875,"end":6953.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6953.88096875,"end":6959.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6960.225968750001,"end":6961.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6961.84596875,"end":6962.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6963.06096875,"end":6964.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6964.74846875,"end":6966.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6966.48659375,"end":6967.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6968.02221875,"end":6970.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6971.194718750001,"end":6971.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6971.97096875,"end":6972.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6972.34221875,"end":6972.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6973.388468749999,"end":6978.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6978.974093750001,"end":6980.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6980.96534375,"end":6981.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6981.218468750001,"end":6981.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6981.370343750001,"end":7004.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7004.843468750001,"end":7006.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7006.7840937500005,"end":7008.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7009.19721875,"end":7014.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7014.9853437500005,"end":7016.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7017.263468749999,"end":7019.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7021.2459687499995,"end":7022.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7022.950343750001,"end":7029.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7029.76784375,"end":7039.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7039.302218750001,"end":7039.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7040.196593750001,"end":7044.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7045.37721875,"end":7046.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7046.91284375,"end":7057.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7058.421593750001,"end":7063.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7063.51784375,"end":7066.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7066.75784375,"end":7067.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7068.698468750001,"end":7069.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7070.26784375,"end":7071.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7072.47846875,"end":7073.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7073.4403437500005,"end":7073.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7073.524718750001,"end":7073.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7073.87909375,"end":7075.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7075.2459687499995,"end":7083.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7083.700343750001,"end":7084.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7084.98284375,"end":7086.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7086.34971875,"end":7086.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7087.42971875,"end":7097.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7091.715968750001,"end":7092.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7092.036593750001,"end":7092.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7097.014718750001,"end":7108.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7108.5740937499995,"end":7111.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7111.763468749999,"end":7112.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7113.079718750001,"end":7115.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7116.15096875,"end":7121.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7121.669093750001,"end":7123.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7124.234093750001,"end":7125.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7125.76971875,"end":7128.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7128.4022187499995,"end":7131.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7131.929093750001,"end":7132.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7132.84034375,"end":7135.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7135.69221875,"end":7138.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7138.392218750001,"end":7142.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7142.897843750001,"end":7146.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7147.437218750001,"end":7156.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7156.7353437500005,"end":7157.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7158.28784375,"end":7159.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7160.3465937500005,"end":7161.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7161.561593750001,"end":7163.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7163.620343750001,"end":7164.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7165.03784375,"end":7168.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7168.682843750001,"end":7170.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7170.33659375,"end":7171.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7172.22659375,"end":7172.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7173.593468750001,"end":7174.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7176.175343750001,"end":7177.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7178.6053437499995,"end":7184.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7184.5790937500005,"end":7185.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7185.70971875,"end":7186.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7187.26221875,"end":7188.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7189.388468749999,"end":7191.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7192.18971875,"end":7193.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7194.34971875,"end":7195.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7196.40846875,"end":7197.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7196.425343750001,"end":7196.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7196.610968750001,"end":7196.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7196.7459687499995,"end":7196.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7196.77971875,"end":7196.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7196.796593750001,"end":7196.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7200.745343750001,"end":7201.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7202.16284375,"end":7209.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7208.92971875,"end":7209.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7209.216593749999,"end":7210.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7210.17846875,"end":7211.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7212.692843750001,"end":7214.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7214.7684687500005,"end":7216.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7216.92846875,"end":7218.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7219.27409375,"end":7221.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7222.497218750001,"end":7224.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7225.298468750001,"end":7229.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7229.77034375,"end":7231.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7231.812218750001,"end":7234.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7234.27596875,"end":7236.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7236.72284375,"end":7239.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7239.94596875,"end":7240.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7240.5028437500005,"end":7240.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7240.80659375,"end":7242.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7242.038468750001,"end":7242.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7242.932843750001,"end":7250.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7248.43409375,"end":7248.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7250.30721875,"end":7252.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7253.057843750001,"end":7257.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7257.61409375,"end":7258.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7259.571593750001,"end":7259.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7259.58846875,"end":7260.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7259.6053437499995,"end":7259.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7259.622218750001,"end":7259.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7259.892218750001,"end":7259.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7260.0272187499995,"end":7260.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7260.5165937500005,"end":7261.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7261.00596875,"end":7261.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7263.452843750001,"end":7265.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7266.67596875,"end":7280.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7283.97284375,"end":7288.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7293.608468750001,"end":7299.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7304.8134687500005,"end":7305.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7305.38721875,"end":7306.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7306.36596875,"end":7311.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7311.95159375,"end":7315.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7316.30534375,"end":7324.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7325.012843750001,"end":7329.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7330.024718750001,"end":7353.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7354.22346875,"end":7355.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7356.48471875,"end":7359.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7360.36596875,"end":7361.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7361.7665937500005,"end":7365.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7366.170968750001,"end":7370.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7369.343468750001,"end":7369.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7371.4022187499995,"end":7375.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7375.435343749999,"end":7377.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7378.810343749999,"end":7379.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7380.177218750001,"end":7384.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7380.312218750001,"end":7380.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7380.3290937500005,"end":7380.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7380.34596875,"end":7380.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7380.37971875,"end":7381.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7381.03784375,"end":7382.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7384.75034375,"end":7387.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7387.9228437500005,"end":7394.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7394.16659375,"end":7397.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7395.98909375,"end":7396.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7397.8622187500005,"end":7398.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7398.48659375,"end":7434.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7435.155968750001,"end":7451.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7451.524718750001,"end":7484.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7486.1522187499995,"end":7509.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7510.114718750001,"end":7518.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7518.9403437500005,"end":7546.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7546.9697187500005,"end":7575.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7575.8934687500005,"end":7588.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7589.106593750001,"end":7593.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7594.489718750001,"end":7606.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7606.622843749999,"end":7611.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7611.4490937499995,"end":7613.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7614.267218750001,"end":7616.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7616.5790937500005,"end":7638.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7639.22534375,"end":7639.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7640.27159375,"end":7640.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7641.317843750001,"end":7642.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7643.764718750001,"end":7646.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7646.22846875,"end":7652.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7652.96159375,"end":7654.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7655.577218750001,"end":7656.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7656.4715937500005,"end":7680.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7680.923468750001,"end":7686.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7687.251593750001,"end":7690.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7691.993468750001,"end":7696.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7695.06471875,"end":7695.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7696.7353437500005,"end":7704.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7704.734093750001,"end":7725.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7726.23284375,"end":7729.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7729.9959687499995,"end":7734.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7734.602843750001,"end":7736.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7738.3153437500005,"end":7738.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7738.9228437500005,"end":7738.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7739.142218750001,"end":7744.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7739.327843750001,"end":7739.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7739.3447187500005,"end":7739.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7745.6728437500005,"end":7747.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7747.56284375,"end":7748.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7749.11534375,"end":7755.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7756.725968750001,"end":7797.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7797.462218750001,"end":7797.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7798.356593750001,"end":7852.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7853.63909375,"end":7854.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7855.74846875,"end":7858.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7859.68034375,"end":7867.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7869.0965937500005,"end":7899.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7900.450343750001,"end":7902.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7903.487843750001,"end":7904.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7905.124718750001,"end":7910.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7911.233468750001,"end":7925.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7926.370343750001,"end":7927.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7928.108468750001,"end":7931.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7931.280968750001,"end":7943.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7944.44346875,"end":7949.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7949.74221875,"end":7970.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7970.68409375,"end":7972.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7972.827218750001,"end":7983.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7984.04909375,"end":7986.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7986.9853437500005,"end":8018.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8019.874718750001,"end":8020.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8021.64659375,"end":8025.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8025.39284375,"end":8026.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8025.66284375,"end":8029.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8027.468468750001,"end":8028.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8029.84784375,"end":8031.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8031.7040937500005,"end":8032.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8032.682843750001,"end":8035.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8036.41221875,"end":8037.779093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8038.437218750001,"end":8056.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8058.90659375,"end":8064.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8064.779093750001,"end":8072.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8073.53721875,"end":8079.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8079.20721875,"end":8099.372843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8082.02534375,"end":8082.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8100.452843750001,"end":8105.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8106.460343750001,"end":8107.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8108.620343750001,"end":8112.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8112.839093750001,"end":8141.982218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8142.6572187500005,"end":8150.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8150.35221875,"end":8154.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8151.16221875,"end":8152.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8154.7059687500005,"end":8159.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8159.58284375,"end":8166.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8167.04159375,"end":8171.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8171.294093750001,"end":8175.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8172.76221875,"end":8177.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8178.38159375,"end":8211.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8212.890968750002,"end":8218.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8218.746593750002,"end":8224.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8225.85096875,"end":8231.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8229.867218750001,"end":8264.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8265.18659375,"end":8266.165343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8266.40159375,"end":8268.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8268.696593749999,"end":8275.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8276.15534375,"end":8281.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8281.58909375,"end":8283.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8283.79971875,"end":8296.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8296.844093750002,"end":8298.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8297.012843750003,"end":8297.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8298.29534375,"end":8301.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8301.687218750001,"end":8302.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8302.919093750003,"end":8303.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8303.03721875,"end":8303.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8303.05409375,"end":8303.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8303.45909375,"end":8304.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8303.52659375,"end":8304.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8304.30284375,"end":8305.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8305.58534375,"end":8307.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8307.340343750002,"end":8309.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8308.16721875,"end":8319.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8320.637843750003,"end":8322.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8322.34221875,"end":8326.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8325.54846875,"end":8354.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8354.62409375,"end":8357.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8357.442218750002,"end":8359.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8359.551593750002,"end":8360.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8359.872218750003,"end":8371.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8372.359718750002,"end":8379.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8380.72971875,"end":8381.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8382.180968750003,"end":8392.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8390.348468750002,"end":8392.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8392.32284375,"end":8399.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8400.92909375,"end":8402.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8403.359093750001,"end":8403.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8403.39284375,"end":8403.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8403.477218750002,"end":8403.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8403.780968750001,"end":8403.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8403.81471875,"end":8403.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8403.91596875,"end":8408.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8404.01721875,"end":8404.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8409.602843750003,"end":8409.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8409.87284375,"end":8409.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8409.88971875,"end":8409.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8409.906593750002,"end":8409.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8409.92346875,"end":8409.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8409.957218750002,"end":8410.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8410.007843750001,"end":8410.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8410.024718750003,"end":8410.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8410.075343750003,"end":8410.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8410.36221875,"end":8410.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8410.497218750003,"end":8410.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8410.51409375,"end":8410.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8410.530968750001,"end":8410.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8410.68284375,"end":8412.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8410.699718750002,"end":8413.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8413.484093750001,"end":8415.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8415.863468750002,"end":8420.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8421.550343750001,"end":8422.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8422.02284375,"end":8429.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8430.22409375,"end":8432.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8432.92409375,"end":8434.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8434.45971875,"end":8441.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8442.25596875,"end":8443.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8443.15034375,"end":8482.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8483.02596875,"end":8510.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8511.19034375,"end":8518.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8519.003468750001,"end":8536.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8537.565968750001,"end":8545.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8546.05409375,"end":8546.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8547.134093750003,"end":8548.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8549.547218750002,"end":8555.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8550.914093750001,"end":8551.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8555.80784375,"end":8558.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8558.91284375,"end":8560.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8561.44409375,"end":8569.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8569.476593750001,"end":8570.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8570.40471875,"end":8595.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8595.59909375,"end":8597.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8597.52284375,"end":8624.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8624.70846875,"end":8630.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8631.37409375,"end":8633.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8633.348468750002,"end":8651.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8635.15409375,"end":8635.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8636.36909375,"end":8636.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8650.81409375,"end":8652.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8652.805343750002,"end":8657.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8656.26471875,"end":8659.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8659.926593750002,"end":8668.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8662.761593750001,"end":8663.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8668.49909375,"end":8669.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8669.207843750002,"end":8670.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8671.01346875,"end":8690.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8689.79534375,"end":8702.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8690.94284375,"end":8692.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8702.60346875,"end":8707.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8704.40909375,"end":8706.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8707.024718750003,"end":8712.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8712.69471875,"end":8713.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8714.04471875,"end":8715.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8715.445343750001,"end":8719.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8718.11159375,"end":8718.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8718.870968750001,"end":8739.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8737.703468750002,"end":8742.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8742.074093750001,"end":8747.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8746.259093750003,"end":8746.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8747.305343750002,"end":8788.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8750.37659375,"end":8752.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8788.61534375,"end":8790.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8791.180343750002,"end":8791.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8792.20971875,"end":8797.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8797.17096875,"end":8801.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8802.047843750002,"end":8811.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8809.675343750001,"end":8881.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8813.72534375,"end":8814.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8882.187218750001,"end":8939.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8939.157218750002,"end":8943.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8943.477218750002,"end":8949.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8950.007843750001,"end":8954.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8953.652843750002,"end":8956.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8956.352843750003,"end":8956.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8956.403468750003,"end":8956.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8956.57221875,"end":8956.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8956.605968750002,"end":8956.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8956.69034375,"end":8957.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8956.74096875,"end":8956.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8956.757843750001,"end":8957.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8957.31471875,"end":8958.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8958.023468750001,"end":8960.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8960.26784375,"end":8961.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8962.17471875,"end":8963.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8964.43596875,"end":8965.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8965.33034375,"end":8969.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8980.450343750003,"end":8981.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8983.015343750001,"end":8983.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8983.04909375,"end":8983.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8990.22096875,"end":9000.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9001.18971875,"end":9003.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9003.72096875,"end":9005.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9005.796593750001,"end":9009.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9009.74534375,"end":9023.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9024.98346875,"end":9026.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9031.78409375,"end":9033.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9033.42096875,"end":9042.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9043.27596875,"end":9043.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9044.085968750001,"end":9044.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9045.43596875,"end":9048.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9046.87034375,"end":9048.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9048.96284375,"end":9050.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9051.679718750001,"end":9057.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9058.71659375,"end":9061.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9061.855343750001,"end":9073.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9073.785968750002,"end":9079.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9073.87034375,"end":9075.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9075.16971875,"end":9075.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9075.304718750001,"end":9075.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9080.08034375,"end":9087.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9087.657218750002,"end":9091.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9091.335968750001,"end":9093.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9093.85034375,"end":9097.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9097.91721875,"end":9105.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9105.56159375,"end":9111.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9111.88971875,"end":9112.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9113.47596875,"end":9114.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9115.433468750001,"end":9118.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9119.04471875,"end":9129.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9130.165343750003,"end":9145.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9146.078468750002,"end":9149.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9150.347843750002,"end":9169.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9170.78346875,"end":9176.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9177.22971875,"end":9177.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9179.00159375,"end":9180.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9179.96346875,"end":9188.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9186.13971875,"end":9187.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9188.265968750002,"end":9190.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9191.15159375,"end":9198.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9197.918468750002,"end":9198.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9198.542843750001,"end":9204.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9204.33096875,"end":9208.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9205.84971875,"end":9207.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9208.887218750002,"end":9211.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9214.894718750002,"end":9216.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9218.03346875,"end":9218.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9218.472218750001,"end":9218.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9218.52284375,"end":9219.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9218.894093750001,"end":9221.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9221.89784375,"end":9221.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9221.914718750002,"end":9222.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9221.965343750002,"end":9222.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9222.35346875,"end":9228.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9227.80409375,"end":9230.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9232.69784375,"end":9237.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9237.675968750002,"end":9240.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9240.375968750002,"end":9240.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9241.55721875,"end":9242.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9242.519093750001,"end":9244.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9245.72534375,"end":9249.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9248.66159375,"end":9249.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9252.171593750001,"end":9254.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9254.80409375,"end":9264.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9258.870968750001,"end":9259.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9267.730343750001,"end":9271.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9272.18534375,"end":9273.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9273.67034375,"end":9277.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9278.68221875,"end":9281.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9283.00221875,"end":9287.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9287.89596875,"end":9289.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9290.950343750003,"end":9291.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9291.60846875,"end":9301.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9301.29471875,"end":9302.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9303.285968750002,"end":9305.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9306.57659375,"end":9322.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9317.86596875,"end":9318.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9323.384093750003,"end":9328.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9329.18909375,"end":9329.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9330.03284375,"end":9335.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9333.070343750001,"end":9333.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9335.14596875,"end":9340.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9337.12034375,"end":9337.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9337.20471875,"end":9337.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9337.42409375,"end":9337.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9340.309718750003,"end":9340.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9340.934093750002,"end":9342.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9343.00971875,"end":9350.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9351.261593750001,"end":9355.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9355.699718750002,"end":9357.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9357.03284375,"end":9360.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9360.69471875,"end":9361.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9360.79596875,"end":9362.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9362.85471875,"end":9363.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9363.95159375,"end":9364.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9364.96409375,"end":9369.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9370.75221875,"end":9371.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9372.675968750002,"end":9373.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9379.34159375,"end":9393.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9387.711593750002,"end":9388.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9391.440968750001,"end":9391.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9393.044093750003,"end":9399.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9399.878468750001,"end":9408.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9408.602843750003,"end":9420.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9420.567218750002,"end":9449.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9449.89596875,"end":9453.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9453.96284375,"end":9455.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9457.945343750001,"end":9462.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9461.60721875,"end":9466.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9467.699093750001,"end":9469.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9469.53846875,"end":9512.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9473.58846875,"end":9474.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9512.265968750002,"end":9555.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9557.00159375,"end":9558.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9558.75659375,"end":9559.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9559.48221875,"end":9562.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9559.58346875,"end":9560.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9562.300343750001,"end":9568.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9568.81409375,"end":9578.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9578.669093750003,"end":9590.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9579.20909375,"end":9579.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9590.44784375,"end":9590.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9590.97096875,"end":9591.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9591.12284375,"end":9592.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9591.274718750003,"end":9591.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9592.03409375,"end":9592.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9592.30409375,"end":9595.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9592.60784375,"end":9615.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9613.684718750003,"end":9621.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9621.41346875,"end":9636.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9636.516593750002,"end":9642.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9636.989093750002,"end":9638.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9643.266593750002,"end":9645.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9646.86096875,"end":9657.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9657.57659375,"end":9669.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9669.64221875,"end":9683.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9684.62721875,"end":9690.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9690.617843750002,"end":9691.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9692.879093750002,"end":9695.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9695.86596875,"end":9697.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9698.24534375,"end":9701.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9701.97471875,"end":9704.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9704.50596875,"end":9706.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9706.024718750003,"end":9758.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9758.370968750001,"end":9766.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9767.09534375,"end":9769.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9769.862843750001,"end":9771.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9771.60096875,"end":9778.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9779.07659375,"end":9788.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9789.167843750001,"end":9795.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9795.462218750003,"end":9801.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9801.13221875,"end":9816.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9817.19721875,"end":9817.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9818.294093750003,"end":9826.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9826.44471875,"end":9827.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9827.81159375,"end":9829.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9829.465343750002,"end":9837.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9837.953468750002,"end":9840.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9840.805343750002,"end":9842.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9843.30284375,"end":9850.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9850.457843750002,"end":9851.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9852.28034375,"end":9872.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9872.715968750003,"end":9878.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9878.774093750002,"end":9883.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9883.769093750001,"end":9885.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9885.49034375,"end":9904.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9904.32284375,"end":9915.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9908.59221875,"end":9908.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9915.34221875,"end":9968.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9969.13971875,"end":9973.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9973.66221875,"end":9979.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9979.973468750002,"end":9981.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9981.711593750002,"end":9993.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9993.473468750002,"end":9998.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9999.210968750001,"end":10012.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10014.06096875,"end":10014.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10014.938468750002,"end":10022.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10017.11534375,"end":10017.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10017.469718750002,"end":10017.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10021.11471875,"end":10021.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10023.207218750002,"end":10029.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10027.18971875,"end":10027.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10029.51846875,"end":10038.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10038.968468750001,"end":10048.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10049.34659375,"end":10053.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10053.734093750001,"end":10057.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10057.952843750001,"end":10068.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10068.53346875,"end":10069.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10070.89596875,"end":10082.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10074.70971875,"end":10075.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10077.19034375,"end":10077.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10079.75534375,"end":10079.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10082.94471875,"end":10084.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10084.024718750003,"end":10087.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10087.956593750001,"end":10091.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10091.550968750002,"end":10091.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10091.88846875,"end":10092.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10092.25971875,"end":10098.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10093.05284375,"end":10094.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10097.47409375,"end":10097.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10097.507843750001,"end":10097.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10098.48659375,"end":10103.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10103.34659375,"end":10107.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10108.45971875,"end":10109.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10110.41721875,"end":10114.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10115.42909375,"end":10117.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10118.449718750002,"end":10132.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10132.540343750003,"end":10137.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10138.328468750002,"end":10154.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10154.157218750002,"end":10157.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10157.532218750002,"end":10161.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10161.059093750002,"end":10169.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10167.47159375,"end":10167.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10169.20971875,"end":10171.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10170.863468750002,"end":10185.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10178.32221875,"end":10178.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10183.570343750001,"end":10183.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10185.93284375,"end":10193.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10195.14659375,"end":10203.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10204.20846875,"end":10210.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10207.617218750001,"end":10208.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10209.11909375,"end":10211.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10212.17346875,"end":10214.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10214.75534375,"end":10216.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10217.117843750002,"end":10217.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10219.21034375,"end":10222.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10222.332218750002,"end":10246.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10243.425968750002,"end":10246.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10246.379093750002,"end":10259.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10260.28409375,"end":10270.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10274.89784375,"end":10276.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10288.97159375,"end":10292.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10292.24534375,"end":10298.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10292.59971875,"end":10297.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10300.71659375,"end":10300.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10311.95534375,"end":10333.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10318.11471875,"end":10319.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10321.962218750003,"end":10324.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10326.04596875,"end":10326.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10326.14721875,"end":10326.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10326.40034375,"end":10327.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10333.032218750002,"end":10343.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10343.039093750001,"end":10343.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10343.984093750001,"end":10345.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10345.097843750002,"end":10345.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10345.80659375,"end":10345.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10345.840343750002,"end":10345.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10345.85721875,"end":10345.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10345.92471875,"end":10346.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10345.95846875,"end":10346.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10346.71784375,"end":10346.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10346.903468750003,"end":10346.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10347.12284375,"end":10352.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10349.19846875,"end":10349.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10349.28284375,"end":10349.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10350.17721875,"end":10350.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10350.81846875,"end":10350.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10354.63221875,"end":10357.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10358.749718750001,"end":10369.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10366.42784375,"end":10368.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10369.144718750002,"end":10369.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10369.836593750002,"end":10370.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10370.680343750002,"end":10371.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10372.38471875,"end":10380.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10372.45221875,"end":10372.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10378.71284375,"end":10379.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10380.02909375,"end":10381.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10381.497218750003,"end":10383.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10384.230968750002,"end":10386.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10384.63596875,"end":10388.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10388.871593750002,"end":10395.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10400.81909375,"end":10412.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10417.25534375,"end":10418.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10418.976593750001,"end":10422.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10423.06034375,"end":10433.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10433.03346875,"end":10433.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10433.23596875,"end":10433.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10433.97846875,"end":10455.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10450.718468750001,"end":10451.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10684.386593750001,"end":10686.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10686.242843750002,"end":10686.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10686.917843750001,"end":10686.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10687.00221875,"end":10687.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10687.10346875,"end":10687.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10693.769093750001,"end":10693.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10694.950343750003,"end":10696.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10697.65034375,"end":10699.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10725.44346875,"end":10727.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10728.24471875,"end":10729.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10737.981593750003,"end":10738.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10738.724093750003,"end":10754.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10754.519093750001,"end":10766.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10766.669093750003,"end":10772.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10772.558468750001,"end":10774.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10775.781593750002,"end":10794.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10794.90096875,"end":10802.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10802.12346875,"end":10805.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10806.07221875,"end":10806.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10807.320968750002,"end":10808.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10809.19409375,"end":10813.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10814.290343750003,"end":10814.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10815.640343750001,"end":10815.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10819.454093750002,"end":10829.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10831.941593750002,"end":10832.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10832.12721875,"end":10834.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10836.210968750001,"end":10839.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10839.72096875,"end":10840.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10840.919093750003,"end":10845.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10847.702843750001,"end":10850.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10851.70221875,"end":10853.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10855.296593750001,"end":10861.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10857.23721875,"end":10857.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10857.55784375,"end":10857.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10862.485343750002,"end":10865.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10865.489093750002,"end":10866.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10866.29909375,"end":10869.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10869.505343750003,"end":10870.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10871.20971875,"end":10878.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10879.242218750001,"end":10894.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10895.40846875,"end":10898.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10898.192843750003,"end":10898.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10898.817218750002,"end":10902.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10903.559093750002,"end":10908.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10909.80284375,"end":10917.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10916.957843750002,"end":10925.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10925.51346875,"end":10936.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10925.547218750002,"end":10925.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10937.055968750003,"end":10944.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10944.44721875,"end":10957.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10957.54221875,"end":10957.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10957.862843750001,"end":10957.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10957.879718750002,"end":10957.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10957.89659375,"end":10960.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10960.714718750001,"end":10970.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10971.04221875,"end":10972.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10973.20221875,"end":10976.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10976.813468750002,"end":10984.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10985.36909375,"end":10987.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10987.57971875,"end":11004.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11005.63596875,"end":11006.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11006.800343750001,"end":11010.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11010.715343750002,"end":11015.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11015.305343750002,"end":11015.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11016.250343750002,"end":11018.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11018.07284375,"end":11019.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11020.13159375,"end":11024.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11023.70909375,"end":11025.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11026.122218750003,"end":11026.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11026.746593750002,"end":11030.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11030.98221875,"end":11032.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11031.94409375,"end":11032.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11033.05784375,"end":11035.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11037.05721875,"end":11039.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11038.74471875,"end":11039.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11039.925968750002,"end":11043.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11043.469718750002,"end":11055.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11043.840968750003,"end":11044.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11055.957218750002,"end":11079.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11080.645343750002,"end":11105.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11106.09284375,"end":11118.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11116.065968750001,"end":11116.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11118.040343750003,"end":11120.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11121.499718750001,"end":11125.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11126.54534375,"end":11127.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11127.270968750003,"end":11127.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11128.97534375,"end":11129.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11129.92034375,"end":11140.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11140.703468750002,"end":11146.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11146.96409375,"end":11148.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11149.12409375,"end":11153.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11153.579093750002,"end":11155.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11156.144093750001,"end":11166.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11166.82596875,"end":11188.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11188.898468750001,"end":11200.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11200.660343750002,"end":11202.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11203.17471875,"end":11234.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11234.882843750001,"end":11238.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11238.780968750001,"end":11239.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11239.422218750002,"end":11248.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11249.243468750003,"end":11249.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11249.395343750002,"end":11249.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11249.614718750003,"end":11252.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11252.53409375,"end":11256.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11256.550343750001,"end":11265.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11264.734718750002,"end":11267.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11267.957843750002,"end":11268.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11269.155968750001,"end":11273.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11273.18909375,"end":11306.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11307.614093750002,"end":11308.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11308.761593750001,"end":11310.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11311.259093750003,"end":11317.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11317.418468750002,"end":11317.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11317.65471875,"end":11344.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11345.380343750003,"end":11345.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11347.270343750002,"end":11348.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11348.957843750002,"end":11349.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11349.29534375,"end":11349.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11349.44721875,"end":11356.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11354.847218750001,"end":11359.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11359.875968750002,"end":11362.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11363.234093750001,"end":11368.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11368.90409375,"end":11369.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11369.629718750002,"end":11374.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11374.77659375,"end":11378.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11378.489093750002,"end":11378.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11379.113468750002,"end":11394.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11394.65534375,"end":11395.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11395.54971875,"end":11398.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11399.835968750001,"end":11417.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11417.622218750003,"end":11418.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11418.870968750001,"end":11421.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11422.48221875,"end":11432.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11432.219093750002,"end":11438.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11438.98596875,"end":11442.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11444.031593750002,"end":11449.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11449.667843750001,"end":11459.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11460.062843750002,"end":11460.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11460.78846875,"end":11467.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11468.719718750002,"end":11472.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11473.242218750001,"end":11502.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11473.562843750002,"end":11474.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11502.722843750002,"end":11507.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11508.797843750002,"end":11516.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11517.083468750003,"end":11537.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11537.687843750002,"end":11554.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11554.782218750002,"end":11560.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11559.81096875,"end":11575.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11575.605968750002,"end":11582.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11581.934093750002,"end":11586.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11585.427218750003,"end":11591.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11588.160968750002,"end":11588.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11591.063468750002,"end":11592.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11592.582218750002,"end":11601.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11602.25159375,"end":11604.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11604.79971875,"end":11612.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11609.777843750002,"end":11610.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11613.38909375,"end":11621.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11623.868468750003,"end":11627.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11625.35346875,"end":11626.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11628.15471875,"end":11631.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11631.68159375,"end":11633.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11633.21721875,"end":11637.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11634.820343750001,"end":11636.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11637.53721875,"end":11637.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11637.55409375,"end":11638.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11637.58784375,"end":11637.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11639.39346875,"end":11640.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11639.427218750003,"end":11641.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11642.734718750002,"end":11644.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11645.215343750002,"end":11646.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11647.51034375,"end":11650.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11651.56034375,"end":11652.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11653.534718750001,"end":11654.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11654.26034375,"end":11665.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11666.71409375,"end":11685.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11685.884093750003,"end":11686.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11687.01471875,"end":11699.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11698.995968750001,"end":11699.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11699.23221875,"end":11699.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11699.316593750002,"end":11699.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11701.29096875,"end":11705.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11713.609718750002,"end":11714.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11715.43221875,"end":11716.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11716.410968750002,"end":11716.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11720.59596875,"end":11721.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11721.405968750001,"end":11724.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11724.629093750002,"end":11725.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11725.692218750002,"end":11730.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11729.57346875,"end":11730.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11730.704093750002,"end":11732.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11732.25659375,"end":11741.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11739.192218750002,"end":11739.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11741.89221875,"end":11743.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11743.765343750001,"end":11749.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11750.582843750002,"end":11753.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11752.13534375,"end":11752.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11752.911593750003,"end":11753.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11753.687843750002,"end":11759.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11759.290343750003,"end":11765.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11763.036593750003,"end":11763.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11766.546593750001,"end":11773.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11771.457218750002,"end":11778.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11778.730343750001,"end":11784.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11784.737843750001,"end":11784.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11784.754718750002,"end":11798.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11798.06909375,"end":11798.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11798.71034375,"end":11798.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11798.828468750002,"end":11798.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11798.91284375,"end":11811.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11799.95909375,"end":11800.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11810.489093750002,"end":11815.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11811.83909375,"end":11812.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11815.973468750002,"end":11816.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11816.969093750002,"end":11842.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11829.574718750002,"end":11829.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11842.973468750002,"end":11844.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11846.601593750001,"end":11847.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11848.32284375,"end":11849.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11849.48721875,"end":11849.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11849.571593750003,"end":11850.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11849.672843750002,"end":11850.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11850.21284375,"end":11850.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11850.53346875,"end":11867.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11868.066593750002,"end":11881.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11881.90409375,"end":11890.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11883.11909375,"end":11883.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11889.852218750002,"end":11895.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11895.927218750003,"end":11914.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11902.812218750001,"end":11903.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11904.195968750002,"end":11905.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11914.793468750002,"end":11915.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11915.56971875,"end":11932.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11923.956593750001,"end":11924.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11928.47909375,"end":11929.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11931.21284375,"end":11940.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11940.696593750003,"end":11940.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11940.730343750001,"end":11955.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11950.78784375,"end":11952.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11953.09971875,"end":11953.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11953.84221875,"end":11955.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11955.884093750003,"end":11957.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11955.934718750003,"end":11957.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11957.571593750003,"end":11966.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11966.59971875,"end":11978.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11972.23596875,"end":11972.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11979.644093750001,"end":11982.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11981.179718750001,"end":11983.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11982.73221875,"end":11985.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11984.89221875,"end":12017.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12002.10471875,"end":12002.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12013.79909375,"end":12024.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12021.88221875,"end":12021.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12021.91596875,"end":12021.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12023.637218750002,"end":12029.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12028.530968750001,"end":12028.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12028.817843750003,"end":12028.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12029.965343750002,"end":12102.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12102.98346875,"end":12112.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12112.804718750001,"end":12120.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12120.38159375,"end":12120.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12120.398468750001,"end":12120.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12120.43221875,"end":12131.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12131.72159375,"end":12144.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12135.19784375,"end":12135.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12144.985343750002,"end":12151.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12150.840968750003,"end":12158.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12159.312218750001,"end":12161.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12161.860343750002,"end":12171.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12169.302218750003,"end":12169.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12171.15846875,"end":12171.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12171.175343750001,"end":12171.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12171.22596875,"end":12172.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12172.27221875,"end":12172.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12172.339718750001,"end":12172.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12172.559093750002,"end":12188.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12189.07971875,"end":12226.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12226.305968750003,"end":12251.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12251.36534375,"end":12253.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12254.06534375,"end":12254.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12254.63909375,"end":12258.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12259.02659375,"end":12277.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12266.839718750001,"end":12267.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12278.38221875,"end":12279.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12279.78284375,"end":12282.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12281.200343750003,"end":12282.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12282.972218750001,"end":12283.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12283.54596875,"end":12283.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12283.59659375,"end":12283.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12283.664093750001,"end":12285.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12283.680968750003,"end":12286.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12286.617218750001,"end":12291.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12287.005343750003,"end":12287.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12290.414093750001,"end":12290.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12291.08909375,"end":12291.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12291.679718750001,"end":12293.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12294.599093750003,"end":12295.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12295.83096875,"end":12297.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12296.759093750003,"end":12297.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12298.19346875,"end":12299.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12299.425343750001,"end":12304.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12305.53409375,"end":12306.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12306.69846875,"end":12306.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12306.715343750002,"end":12309.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12308.622218750003,"end":12309.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12310.64721875,"end":12312.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12311.69346875,"end":12313.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12313.414718750002,"end":12313.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12313.48221875,"end":12313.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12313.634093750003,"end":12313.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12313.684718750003,"end":12313.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12313.718468750001,"end":12313.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12313.769093750001,"end":12313.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12313.785968750002,"end":12313.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12313.97159375,"end":12314.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12317.32971875,"end":12323.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12328.534718750001,"end":12329.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12330.25596875,"end":12331.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12337.37721875,"end":12338.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12337.42784375,"end":12337.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12338.085968750001,"end":12350.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12350.472218750001,"end":12433.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12435.04971875,"end":12471.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12440.83784375,"end":12441.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12447.098468750002,"end":12447.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12460.36221875,"end":12460.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12460.497218750003,"end":12460.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12471.28034375,"end":12471.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12472.410968750002,"end":12493.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12481.43909375,"end":12481.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12481.844093750002,"end":12481.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12493.99409375,"end":12526.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12526.95096875,"end":12540.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12540.687218750001,"end":12579.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12579.17909375,"end":12579.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12580.259093750003,"end":12591.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12591.734093750001,"end":12593.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12593.60721875,"end":12613.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12613.48596875,"end":12617.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12616.911593750003,"end":12617.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12618.059093750002,"end":12619.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12619.155968750001,"end":12619.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12619.645343750002,"end":12620.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12620.23596875,"end":12624.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12622.76721875,"end":12623.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12624.31971875,"end":12627.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12627.84659375,"end":12632.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12632.63909375,"end":12636.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12637.667843750001,"end":12640.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12640.33409375,"end":12645.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12644.519093750001,"end":12645.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12645.312218750001,"end":12646.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12647.472218750001,"end":12662.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12658.54221875,"end":12658.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12661.782218750002,"end":12668.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12668.02596875,"end":12672.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12669.12284375,"end":12671.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12671.637218750002,"end":12684.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12673.03784375,"end":12673.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12679.028468750003,"end":12679.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12684.917843750001,"end":12686.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12686.571593750003,"end":12692.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12693.844718750002,"end":12707.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12704.695343750001,"end":12705.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12707.20971875,"end":12722.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12723.13971875,"end":12741.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12742.00596875,"end":12757.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12758.020343750002,"end":12772.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12773.157218750002,"end":12798.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12798.97596875,"end":12840.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12840.539093750001,"end":12854.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12854.66346875,"end":12874.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12861.227843750003,"end":12861.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12861.362843750001,"end":12861.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12861.39659375,"end":12861.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12861.41346875,"end":12861.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12864.923468750003,"end":12865.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12865.328468750002,"end":12865.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12869.817218750002,"end":12869.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12869.90159375,"end":12870.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12870.120968750001,"end":12870.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12875.048468750003,"end":12882.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12881.91659375,"end":12887.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12885.12284375,"end":12885.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12888.480968750002,"end":12892.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12892.24409375,"end":12892.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12893.121593750002,"end":12929.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12897.981593750003,"end":12898.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12898.403468750003,"end":12898.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12899.06159375,"end":12899.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12899.331593750001,"end":12899.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12899.38221875,"end":12899.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12899.41596875,"end":12899.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12899.46659375,"end":12899.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12900.58034375,"end":12901.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12904.934093750002,"end":12905.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12917.20221875,"end":12917.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12926.550968750002,"end":12926.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12929.33534375,"end":12929.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12929.892218750003,"end":12949.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12949.88909375,"end":12953.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12954.242843750002,"end":12962.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12960.992843750002,"end":12961.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12961.92096875,"end":12962.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12965.987843750001,"end":12970.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12978.880343750003,"end":12981.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12981.69846875,"end":12983.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12989.69721875,"end":12989.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12989.71409375,"end":12990.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12989.81534375,"end":12990.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12990.743468750003,"end":13002.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13002.74159375,"end":13042.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13044.844718750002,"end":13046.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13045.33409375,"end":13046.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13047.173468750003,"end":13052.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13052.08409375,"end":13082.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13053.180968750003,"end":13053.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13064.892218750003,"end":13065.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13069.22909375,"end":13069.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13073.65034375,"end":13073.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13082.88096875,"end":13095.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13085.31096875,"end":13085.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13095.081593750001,"end":13098.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13100.042843750001,"end":13101.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13102.152218750001,"end":13108.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13104.784718750001,"end":13105.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13108.767218750003,"end":13117.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13113.62721875,"end":13114.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13114.065968750001,"end":13114.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13117.862843750001,"end":13119.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13119.53346875,"end":13119.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13119.567218750002,"end":13119.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13119.60096875,"end":13119.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13119.887843750003,"end":13119.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13120.05659375,"end":13120.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13120.69784375,"end":13124.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13124.359718750002,"end":13124.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13125.08534375,"end":13125.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13125.355343750001,"end":13139.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13140.25596875,"end":13163.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13164.015968750002,"end":13186.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13183.489718750003,"end":13183.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13183.50659375,"end":13184.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13187.792843750001,"end":13188.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13188.113468750002,"end":13188.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13188.180968750003,"end":13194.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13194.35721875,"end":13194.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13194.593468750001,"end":13200.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13201.12409375,"end":13203.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13204.00971875,"end":13208.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13208.65034375,"end":13215.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13216.04159375,"end":13216.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13216.075343750003,"end":13220.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13218.606593750003,"end":13219.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13219.99034375,"end":13220.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13221.30659375,"end":13222.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13222.656593750002,"end":13225.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13226.082218750002,"end":13233.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13234.148468750001,"end":13239.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13239.44721875,"end":13240.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13239.852218750002,"end":13251.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13252.440968750001,"end":13253.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13253.74034375,"end":13255.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13254.938468750002,"end":13263.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13264.70909375,"end":13267.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13266.51471875,"end":13269.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13270.058468750001,"end":13270.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13270.075343750003,"end":13270.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13270.41284375,"end":13279.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13278.934718750003,"end":13283.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13281.516593750002,"end":13282.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13283.64284375,"end":13283.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13283.91284375,"end":13299.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13293.81846875,"end":13293.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13299.066593750002,"end":13303.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13300.500968750002,"end":13301.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13302.593468750001,"end":13305.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13304.567843750003,"end":13307.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13307.774093750002,"end":13317.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13307.993468750003,"end":13308.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13314.405968750001,"end":13314.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13316.61659375,"end":13329.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13318.08471875,"end":13318.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13330.335968750001,"end":13330.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13331.129093750002,"end":13336.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13336.309718750003,"end":13339.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13340.34284375,"end":13355.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13355.90159375,"end":13387.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13365.75659375,"end":13365.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13365.790343750003,"end":13365.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13365.97596875,"end":13366.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13369.13159375,"end":13369.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13372.017218750003,"end":13372.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13387.305968750003,"end":13391.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13392.06471875,"end":13394.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13392.38534375,"end":13394.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13394.984093750001,"end":13395.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13395.034718750001,"end":13395.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13395.220343750003,"end":13406.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13395.28784375,"end":13395.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13398.105968750002,"end":13398.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13398.409718750001,"end":13398.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13402.864718750003,"end":13403.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13403.961593750002,"end":13404.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13404.02909375,"end":13404.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13404.282218750002,"end":13404.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13406.644718750002,"end":13413.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13410.52596875,"end":13410.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13412.567843750003,"end":13414.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13414.187843750002,"end":13414.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13414.559093750002,"end":13420.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13420.60034375,"end":13443.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13444.765343750001,"end":13445.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13445.625968750002,"end":13468.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13456.442843750003,"end":13456.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13456.645343750002,"end":13456.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13456.66221875,"end":13456.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13468.727843750003,"end":13469.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13469.75721875,"end":13471.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13471.37721875,"end":13474.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13474.836593750002,"end":13477.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13477.70534375,"end":13483.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13483.425968750002,"end":13483.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13483.66221875,"end":13487.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13485.83909375,"end":13485.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13488.25221875,"end":13516.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13516.73721875,"end":13527.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13528.39784375,"end":13540.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13541.610968750003,"end":13552.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13552.765343750001,"end":13553.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13554.098468750002,"end":13557.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13557.473468750002,"end":13560.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13560.797843750002,"end":13564.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13565.387843750003,"end":13566.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13565.438468750002,"end":13566.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13566.24846875,"end":13568.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13567.328468750002,"end":13567.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13567.36221875,"end":13567.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13569.539093750001,"end":13571.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13571.83409375,"end":13576.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13575.63096875,"end":13575.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13575.64784375,"end":13575.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13577.200343750003,"end":13577.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13578.17909375,"end":13583.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13581.300968750002,"end":13581.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13583.410343750002,"end":13583.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13584.13596875,"end":13599.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13595.25659375,"end":13595.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13600.63971875,"end":13622.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13613.582843750002,"end":13613.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13618.071593750003,"end":13618.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13618.08846875,"end":13618.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13619.809718750003,"end":13620.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13621.09221875,"end":13621.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13622.93159375,"end":13636.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13636.532843750003,"end":13679.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13650.437843750002,"end":13650.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13650.454718750003,"end":13650.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13659.465968750003,"end":13659.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13659.769718750002,"end":13659.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13666.047218750002,"end":13666.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13670.24909375,"end":13670.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13670.265968750002,"end":13670.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13677.67409375,"end":13677.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13679.68221875,"end":13679.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13680.120968750001,"end":13691.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13691.882843750001,"end":13693.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13693.789718750002,"end":13694.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13694.835968750001,"end":13709.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13710.10784375,"end":13748.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13748.81909375,"end":13757.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13757.374718750001,"end":13759.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13759.58534375,"end":13773.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13773.59159375,"end":13793.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13792.339718750001,"end":13793.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13794.68534375,"end":13795.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13794.95534375,"end":13795.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13795.42784375,"end":13797.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13798.634093750003,"end":13806.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13807.45971875,"end":13816.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13815.559718750003,"end":13817.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13816.57221875,"end":13819.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13819.761593750001,"end":13820.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13820.68971875,"end":13823.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13824.030968750001,"end":13836.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13836.653468750003,"end":13838.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13839.285968750002,"end":13839.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13844.38221875,"end":13846.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13846.980968750002,"end":13847.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13847.082218750002,"end":13850.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13850.74409375,"end":13850.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13850.79471875,"end":13851.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13852.161593750003,"end":13855.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13855.418468750002,"end":13856.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13856.49846875,"end":13856.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13856.92034375,"end":13857.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13857.39284375,"end":13858.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13858.45596875,"end":13859.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13859.789093750001,"end":13859.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13860.19409375,"end":13861.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13862.320343750001,"end":13862.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13862.87721875,"end":13868.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13870.487843750001,"end":13873.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13874.132843750001,"end":13894.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13895.09159375,"end":13904.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13905.16596875,"end":13908.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13909.519718750002,"end":13931.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13931.524718750003,"end":13938.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13938.93284375,"end":13944.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13943.62409375,"end":13943.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13944.83909375,"end":13951.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13950.84659375,"end":13952.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13951.335968750001,"end":13951.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13951.99409375,"end":13959.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13958.11971875,"end":13958.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13958.96346875,"end":13959.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13959.874718750001,"end":13964.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13963.199093750001,"end":13963.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13963.722218750001,"end":13964.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13964.329718750003,"end":13993.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13976.985968750003,"end":13977.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13977.559718750003,"end":13977.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13981.52534375,"end":13981.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13981.54221875,"end":13981.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13988.055968750003,"end":13988.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13988.07284375,"end":13988.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13994.282843750003,"end":14002.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13996.004093750002,"end":13997.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13997.961593750002,"end":13998.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14003.05784375,"end":14005.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14003.243468750003,"end":14003.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14005.555343750002,"end":14008.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14006.90534375,"end":14007.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14008.829093750002,"end":14011.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14012.204093750002,"end":14012.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14012.74409375,"end":14035.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14036.149718750003,"end":14044.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14045.430968750003,"end":14045.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14046.055343750002,"end":14051.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14050.223468750002,"end":14050.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14051.15159375,"end":14053.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14054.965343750002,"end":14065.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14058.509093750003,"end":14058.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14060.280968750001,"end":14060.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14061.95159375,"end":14062.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14064.769718750002,"end":14068.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14068.684718750003,"end":14075.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14075.56971875,"end":14086.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14076.29534375,"end":14076.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14086.20096875,"end":14107.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14093.727218750002,"end":14094.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14106.265343750001,"end":14109.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14108.35784375,"end":14109.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14109.235343750002,"end":14109.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14114.43284375,"end":14119.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14120.187218750001,"end":14129.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14135.20596875,"end":14136.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14137.56846875,"end":14137.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14137.58534375,"end":14138.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14138.665343750003,"end":14138.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14138.699093750001,"end":14138.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14138.800343750001,"end":14138.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14139.32346875,"end":14140.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14139.69471875,"end":14139.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14139.711593750002,"end":14139.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14139.880343750003,"end":14139.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14139.964718750001,"end":14140.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14141.11221875,"end":14144.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14144.976593750001,"end":14147.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14147.254718750002,"end":14153.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14153.66721875,"end":14158.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14158.392218750003,"end":14162.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14158.45971875,"end":14158.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14163.184718750003,"end":14167.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14167.032218750002,"end":14174.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14173.42784375,"end":14176.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14176.48221875,"end":14178.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14181.19034375,"end":14199.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14197.609718750002,"end":14197.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14199.246593750002,"end":14230.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14230.667843750001,"end":14239.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14239.61159375,"end":14239.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14239.67909375,"end":14242.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14242.345343750003,"end":14245.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14245.028468750003,"end":14264.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14264.367218750001,"end":14267.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14267.62409375,"end":14271.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14271.35346875,"end":14273.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14274.070343750001,"end":14293.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14289.578468750002,"end":14289.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14289.96659375,"end":14290.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14293.71284375,"end":14295.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14296.395968750003,"end":14297.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14298.235343750002,"end":14309.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14310.520343750002,"end":14320.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14322.61971875,"end":14326.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14326.872218750003,"end":14333.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14334.837218750003,"end":14350.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14351.13846875,"end":14353.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14354.20971875,"end":14360.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14361.314093750003,"end":14366.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14367.54096875,"end":14371.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14372.282843750003,"end":14385.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14386.086593750002,"end":14406.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14407.720343750003,"end":14411.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14411.230343750001,"end":14415.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14415.128468750001,"end":14422.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14422.03034375,"end":14422.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14422.317218750002,"end":14422.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14422.367843750002,"end":14435.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14422.587218750003,"end":14423.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14423.65034375,"end":14424.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14427.582218750002,"end":14428.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14435.969093750002,"end":14451.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14451.12284375,"end":14451.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14451.13971875,"end":14452.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14452.000343750002,"end":14459.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14460.437843750002,"end":14483.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14484.484718750002,"end":14488.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14489.024093750002,"end":14494.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14494.356593750003,"end":14494.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14494.37346875,"end":14494.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14494.440968750001,"end":14494.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14494.609718750002,"end":14494.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14494.862843750001,"end":14496.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14497.157843750003,"end":14521.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14523.297218750002,"end":14525.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14525.777843750002,"end":14533.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14533.894718750002,"end":14535.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14535.61596875,"end":14540.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14540.914718750002,"end":14543.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14543.243468750003,"end":14543.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14544.27284375,"end":14544.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14545.707218750002,"end":14593.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14596.720343750003,"end":14607.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14608.634093750003,"end":14610.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14610.895343750002,"end":14616.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14616.312218750001,"end":14619.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14620.227218750002,"end":14624.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14624.26034375,"end":14624.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14624.378468750001,"end":14624.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14624.395343750002,"end":14625.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14624.42909375,"end":14625.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14625.74534375,"end":14629.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14626.31909375,"end":14626.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14629.508468750002,"end":14637.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14635.684718750003,"end":14636.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14636.44409375,"end":14638.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14638.55346875,"end":14645.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14646.19784375,"end":14664.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14665.418468750002,"end":14670.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14668.017218750003,"end":14668.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14670.160343750002,"end":14674.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14674.29471875,"end":14674.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14674.73346875,"end":14674.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14675.57721875,"end":14677.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14677.24784375,"end":14690.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14691.034718750001,"end":14710.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14711.63909375,"end":14714.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14714.406593750002,"end":14718.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14717.49471875,"end":14717.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14720.363468750002,"end":14725.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14726.219093750002,"end":14728.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14729.40846875,"end":14729.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14730.387218750002,"end":14731.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14731.63596875,"end":14732.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14733.509093750003,"end":14734.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14734.84221875,"end":14735.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14736.242843750002,"end":14737.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14737.930343750002,"end":14738.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14739.314093750003,"end":14739.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14739.90471875,"end":14740.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14742.030968750001,"end":14746.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14742.503468750001,"end":14742.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14747.262218750002,"end":14751.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14752.493468750003,"end":14755.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14755.497218750003,"end":14760.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14760.67784375,"end":14761.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14762.11221875,"end":14764.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14764.52534375,"end":14773.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14773.739093750002,"end":14774.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14774.903468750003,"end":14792.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14790.37784375,"end":14791.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14792.58846875,"end":14795.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14794.47846875,"end":14809.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14809.952843750001,"end":14847.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14842.20096875,"end":14842.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14847.719093750002,"end":14847.735968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14850.452843750001,"end":14850.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14850.97596875,"end":14851.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14851.161593750003,"end":14851.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14851.364093750002,"end":14851.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14852.427218750003,"end":14857.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14857.692218750002,"end":14859.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14863.699718750002,"end":14863.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14866.88909375,"end":14867.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14869.437218750001,"end":14869.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14869.454093750002,"end":14869.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14869.926593750002,"end":14870.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14870.702843750001,"end":14871.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14871.867218750001,"end":14872.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14872.879718750002,"end":14873.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14878.65096875,"end":14878.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14878.684718750003,"end":14879.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14879.29221875,"end":14879.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14879.54534375,"end":14886.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14887.071593750003,"end":14888.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14888.50596875,"end":14888.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14888.860343750002,"end":14895.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14895.660968750002,"end":14899.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14897.753468750001,"end":14897.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14899.57596875,"end":14901.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14901.567218750002,"end":14912.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14913.278468750003,"end":14916.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14917.328468750002,"end":14918.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14918.88096875,"end":14919.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14919.032843750003,"end":14939.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14940.02534375,"end":14940.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14940.83534375,"end":14946.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14948.53034375,"end":14955.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14955.06096875,"end":14992.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14992.92846875,"end":14997.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14997.88971875,"end":15002.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15003.188468750002,"end":15011.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15012.06471875,"end":15018.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15019.219718750002,"end":15023.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15023.77596875,"end":15024.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15025.429718750001,"end":15026.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15027.083468750003,"end":15028.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15030.863468750002,"end":15031.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15031.977218750002,"end":15033.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15034.238468750002,"end":15034.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15034.255343750003,"end":15034.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15034.27221875,"end":15034.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15034.727843750003,"end":15035.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15035.082218750002,"end":15035.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15035.149718750003,"end":15035.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15035.21721875,"end":15045.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15036.077843750001,"end":15036.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15045.207218750002,"end":15068.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15068.882843750001,"end":15092.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15094.364093750002,"end":15098.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15099.07221875,"end":15102.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15102.02534375,"end":15123.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15102.480968750002,"end":15103.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15105.906593750002,"end":15106.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15123.28784375,"end":15127.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15125.565968750001,"end":15125.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15128.654093750003,"end":15138.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15136.770968750003,"end":15137.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15138.036593750003,"end":15140.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15140.80409375,"end":15160.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15144.820343750001,"end":15145.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15145.32659375,"end":15146.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15146.01846875,"end":15146.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15146.22096875,"end":15146.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15146.237843750001,"end":15146.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15150.794093750003,"end":15151.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15160.817843750003,"end":15165.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15165.492218750001,"end":15166.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15166.94346875,"end":15167.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15169.440968750001,"end":15177.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15176.325968750003,"end":15180.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15180.426593750002,"end":15182.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15183.04221875,"end":15184.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15184.274093750002,"end":15196.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15185.08409375,"end":15185.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15190.703468750002,"end":15191.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15191.935343750003,"end":15191.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15197.082218750002,"end":15198.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15199.59659375,"end":15200.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15200.035343750002,"end":15200.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15200.17034375,"end":15200.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15200.305343750002,"end":15200.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15200.372843750003,"end":15200.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15200.676593750002,"end":15201.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15200.727218750002,"end":15202.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15202.07721875,"end":15205.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15205.485968750003,"end":15209.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15209.805968750003,"end":15213.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15213.41721875,"end":15213.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15213.450968750003,"end":15213.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15213.501593750003,"end":15213.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15213.51846875,"end":15213.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15213.602843750003,"end":15228.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15228.48659375,"end":15228.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15230.325968750003,"end":15230.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15231.304718750001,"end":15233.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15232.50284375,"end":15234.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15233.86971875,"end":15265.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15265.898468750001,"end":15280.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15280.59659375,"end":15280.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15280.950968750003,"end":15289.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15290.755343750003,"end":15291.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15291.93659375,"end":15296.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15292.105343750001,"end":15293.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15294.062843750002,"end":15294.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15296.340968750003,"end":15312.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15311.59596875,"end":15314.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15315.325343750003,"end":15319.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15319.98284375,"end":15336.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15328.11659375,"end":15328.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15336.621593750002,"end":15340.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15340.40159375,"end":15346.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15347.235968750003,"end":15350.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15351.285968750002,"end":15352.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15351.539093750001,"end":15351.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15353.091593750003,"end":15367.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15362.524718750003,"end":15362.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15368.279093750003,"end":15373.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15373.746593750002,"end":15375.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15376.075343750003,"end":15377.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15380.142218750003,"end":15381.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15382.403468750003,"end":15384.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15385.12034375,"end":15386.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15387.01034375,"end":15396.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15397.18596875,"end":15397.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15398.72159375,"end":15404.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15405.37034375,"end":15406.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15407.294093750003,"end":15424.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15426.008468750002,"end":15435.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15436.31909375,"end":15454.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15455.45534375,"end":15478.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15455.607218750003,"end":15455.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15479.08034375,"end":15483.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15483.88971875,"end":15499.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15500.376593750003,"end":15501.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15503.042843750001,"end":15504.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15505.000343750002,"end":15514.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15515.63159375,"end":15517.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15518.500343750002,"end":15520.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15520.609718750002,"end":15523.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15524.38971875,"end":15526.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15527.157218750002,"end":15532.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15532.97909375,"end":15535.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15535.61159375,"end":15539.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15539.189093750003,"end":15541.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15542.26034375,"end":15543.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15544.285343750002,"end":15551.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15552.992843750002,"end":15554.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15554.258468750002,"end":15559.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15559.489718750003,"end":15563.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15563.337218750003,"end":15564.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15563.35409375,"end":15585.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15585.578468750002,"end":15646.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15646.902218750001,"end":15652.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15652.656593750002,"end":15654.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15654.175343750001,"end":15656.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15654.597218750001,"end":15656.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15656.942843750003,"end":15656.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15656.993468750003,"end":15657.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15657.01034375,"end":15657.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15657.027218750001,"end":15657.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15657.044093750003,"end":15657.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15657.21284375,"end":15659.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15657.870968750001,"end":15677.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15677.31096875,"end":15682.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15681.32721875,"end":15681.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15681.74909375,"end":15681.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15684.769718750002,"end":15686.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15686.96346875,"end":15695.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15695.839718750001,"end":15700.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15701.77971875,"end":15703.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15704.73284375,"end":15706.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15706.605968750002,"end":15710.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15711.128468750001,"end":15714.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15715.667843750001,"end":15719.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15719.65034375,"end":15724.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15724.98284375,"end":15725.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1565.179,"end":1594.022,"text":"好現在開始開會繼續開會那本日會議議程為邀請勞動部部長針對因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策進行專題報告並被質詢那現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員第一個陳昭資委員王王振旭委員"},{"start":1596.803,"end":1612.61,"text":"好那在場的官員有我們勞動部部長洪森漢部長勞動力發展署署長黃玲玉署長職業安全衛生署署長林玉堂署長還有勞動保險司司長陳美女司長勞動關係司司長王厚偉司長"},{"start":1618.916,"end":1624.52,"text":"勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃琦雅司長還有會計處副處長許嘉玲副處長謝謝接下來請勞動部紅部長報告"},{"start":1639.778,"end":1655.499,"text":"主席各位委員那各位記者朋友大家好那今天很謝謝貴永恆的邀請那來就因關稅造成我國市場及就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策來進行專題報告那敬請各位委員不吝賜教"},{"start":1657.841,"end":1686.765,"text":"在美國對等關稅措施前其實本部已經建立美國關稅影響事業單位的監測通報機制主動訪視受影響的工會與企業掌握勞動市場變化也給予及時的協助有關訪視工會的部分到目前我們已經拜訪了128家的工會我自己也親自與超過200個工會幹部來座談建立直接聯繫的溝通管道"},{"start":1687.585,"end":1715.68,"text":"那在訪視企業的部分截至10月1號為止全國已經訪視超過2萬家的企業那其中3825家表示受到影響那主要是集中在金屬製品機械設備還有塑膠製品製造業另依據最新減班休息通報顯示全國共有398家事業單位8505名勞工實施減班休息那這其實是避免雇主之前勞工"},{"start":1716.74,"end":1740.442,"text":"嚴重影響勞工勞動權益的權益措施那目前通報減班休息的勞工73.6%的企業其實適用我們這個雇用安定措施的頁別那有八成以上的員工可以申請薪資差額補貼那每一位減班休息的勞工勞動部其實都有資源和協助那本部將持續密切監測減班休息數據"},{"start":1742.823,"end":1765.872,"text":"並請各地方政府審慎把關積極掌握各縣市產業勞工的狀況做後續的因應然後為協助勞工安定就業本部會在8月13日發布因應國際情勢支持勞工安定就業辦法規劃多項強化措施以穩定就業市場避免失業的情形那第一個強化公安定措施3月1日起"},{"start":1766.932,"end":1789.615,"text":"橡膠製品製造業等3個行業來開辦公用安定措施8月13號再公告強化版公用安定措施將原本適用的行業別擴大到9個行業那薪資差額補貼比例也從原本的5成提高到7成那另外也鼓勵減班休息勞工參加職業訓練薪資差額補貼可與減班休息勞工在充電計畫的訓練基地合并勤領"},{"start":1790.954,"end":1808.886,"text":"減慢休息勞工再充電計畫是為了鼓勵減慢休息勞工利用暫時減少工時期間參加訓練課程除訂有充電再出發訓練計畫協助穩定就業以外為因應國際情勢可能影響那增訂減慢休息勞工再充電計畫專案協助受影響的產業在"},{"start":1811.397,"end":1835.111,"text":"包括在職勞工和事業單位那勞工可利用減班休息期間來依照參訓時數申請訓練津貼每個月最高可以有17210元那對於減班前的平均月頭髮薪資在30300元以下的勞工那也可以依參訓時數來申請每個月最高2280元那為鼓勵企業辦訓補助上限也提高到350萬"},{"start":1837.216,"end":1860.36,"text":"那企業這個支持企業辦理訓練方面為了協助企業提升員工的職能那我們已經推動企業人力資源提升計畫補助事業單位辦訓最高200萬元鼓勵投保就業保險之民營事業單位及非營利法人或團體積極投入職能升級115年度訓練計畫將自114年的12月1號起開始受理申請"},{"start":1866.821,"end":1876.312,"text":"那在支援青年就業計畫方面為了鼓勵15歲到29歲未在學且為就業達一定期間的青年積極尋職與穩定就業"},{"start":1878.692,"end":1897.921,"text":"以推動初次尋職青年穩定就業計畫 又鑒於國際情勢的影響從9月1日起實施支援青年就業計畫放寬適用對象 還有增加補助金額然後於尋職期間提供尋職津貼及就業獎勵合計最高48000元"},{"start":1899.878,"end":1912.276,"text":"以協助青年順利接軌職場那勞工就業通計劃的部分為競速協助失業勞工重返職場勞工部已經訂有僱傭獎註工作崗位訓練還有職務再設計補助等訓練措施"},{"start":1916.401,"end":1937.975,"text":"那也為了因應國際情勢的影響在114年9月30日推動勞工就業通計劃來整合服務的流程放寬適用對象鼓勵雇主雇用受影響產業失業的勞工並同時通過跨域津貼以及就業獎勵協助失業勞工順利再就業那此外勞動部其實也預先準備了"},{"start":1938.815,"end":1960.022,"text":"政府部門公共服務上工及民間團體公益服務上工等計畫將是情勢嚴峻程度來適時啟動減緩對就業市場的衝擊未來也將持續依產業與就業情勢變化滾動調整措施穩定我國勞動市場那也謝謝主席還有各位委員的指教那也祝大家身體健康往事如意謝謝謝謝洪部長"},{"start":1963.973,"end":1968.303,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":1971.243,"end":1998.888,"text":"那現在開始詢答做以下宣告第一本會委員會詢答時間是6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記那委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理第四暫定10點30分休息10分鐘第五原則上11點30分處理臨時提案11點截止收案好現在請登記第一位委員陳昭資委員發言"},{"start":2005.915,"end":2030.794,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長村委好部長早安 部長我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪那但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到那個美國指控"},{"start":2031.534,"end":2046.096,"text":"指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題"},{"start":2048.376,"end":2066.304,"text":"當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個"},{"start":2068.025,"end":2083.781,"text":"產業因應的做法 應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀 幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了"},{"start":2084.522,"end":2102.816,"text":"部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎"},{"start":2104.964,"end":2118.359,"text":"地大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台中市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查"},{"start":2119.921,"end":2142.537,"text":"那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況"},{"start":2143.545,"end":2160.317,"text":"我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個吉安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞讓人家非常的震驚"},{"start":2161.358,"end":2184.958,"text":"那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重"},{"start":2185.939,"end":2212.536,"text":"扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢"},{"start":2214.272,"end":2241.779,"text":"其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的"},{"start":2243.806,"end":2272.135,"text":"部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的那但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣零是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬"},{"start":2273.115,"end":2295.456,"text":"那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈"},{"start":2299.019,"end":2314.709,"text":"也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障"},{"start":2315.909,"end":2342.429,"text":"勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長 這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有財力跟能力去幫移工去付這筆費用但是家庭的"},{"start":2343.976,"end":2369.136,"text":"家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的"},{"start":2370.257,"end":2383.426,"text":"部長 您這個想法 我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那"},{"start":2385.646,"end":2406.912,"text":"我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面"},{"start":2408.14,"end":2418.534,"text":"其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化職聘的部分"},{"start":2419.256,"end":2440.025,"text":"如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠嘛現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理"},{"start":2440.345,"end":2464.659,"text":"那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面希望部長往這個方向努力部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎"},{"start":2469.188,"end":2492.813,"text":"大家都說股市不斷的創高 創新高景氣很好 你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業現在過去也因為中國的貿易傾銷這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的"},{"start":2493.573,"end":2519.507,"text":"所以產業之間的差別是有的你說的是正確因為現在除了半導體之外其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖嚇死人就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許就是9月更嚴重越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送"},{"start":2520.928,"end":2534.148,"text":"所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛 雇主身上不是現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個"},{"start":2536.65,"end":2551.525,"text":"減慢休息的話像地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是"},{"start":2552.526,"end":2567.275,"text":"就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解或調查嗎"},{"start":2568.395,"end":2591.156,"text":"跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是"},{"start":2591.656,"end":2611.869,"text":"所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日更公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽"},{"start":2612.91,"end":2628.25,"text":"其实会有这样的状况那我们跟他比方说上个礼拜我们其实就到中部我自己去跟他座谈我跟大家说我们讲很清楚我们绝对你通报的话我们绝对不会公布个别企业的名字因为对等关税是大家都受害者嘛"},{"start":2628.65,"end":2654.4,"text":"對我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長"},{"start":2659.15,"end":2674.675,"text":"謝謝陳昭志委員發言接下來請林月琴委員發言主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長有請紅部長"},{"start":2681.556,"end":2698.633,"text":"林委員好 部長早美國關稅雖然還在談判階段可是關稅政策進口的產品的調整還有台幣的匯率的波動還是讓台灣以出口為主的製造業受到衝擊我相信部長應該也知道"},{"start":2699.594,"end":2726.569,"text":"所以今年3月8月勞動部的確推出了一個僱用安定措施跟強化版讓減班休息的勞工可以申請到我們的差額補貼所以我首先我想問部長目前為止通報減班休息的數量大概有多少增長的幅度是不是有趨緩現在最新的數據在10月1號那是最新的是"},{"start":2728.272,"end":2753.942,"text":"是8505那相比於前一期9月16號的時候那是增加1000多那9月16號當天因為我們一個月會公佈兩次兩個禮拜公佈一次那9月16號當時公佈的那一次其實增加大概2400多那到10月1號這次的公佈它的增加是到1100所以確實增加的數字有比9月16號來的低"},{"start":2755.663,"end":2774.477,"text":"可是還是增加所以我們還是是用權力戒備的態度我們不會鬆懈我們也不會輕忽但我們也一直在監測這個數據但確實數據有的時候它會有一些它的上下可是我們可能還要看長期的趨勢謝謝部長的努力剛剛也講說確實有成長可是還是比前一個時間點有減緩"},{"start":2777.279,"end":2793.915,"text":"可是面對關稅的一個微確定性的話預期申請減班休息的數量可能會越來越多所以根據部內的資料目前強化版的雇用安定措施所補助的九大產業就業保險投保人數大概有"},{"start":2795.555,"end":2815.043,"text":"105萬人那他們是目前美國關稅下最可能受到衝擊的潛在勞工當然不是全部都會受到影響可是還是要看關稅的談判的進度跟結果而定所以現在的強化版預計可以接住多少的勞工勞動部又能夠提供多少的量呢"},{"start":2815.863,"end":2833.806,"text":"我跟委員說明這邊講到的105萬絕對不是這105萬都會受到影響是我知道因為有些看到105萬但是絕對不是105萬都會受到影響那其實現在基本上我們並沒有什麼量能上的限制也就是說只要"},{"start":2834.98,"end":2857.806,"text":"有減班休息的狀況然後企業通報然後勞工朋友來跟我們申請甚至我剛剛我們講到如果有這個勞工朋友來說他企業沒有通報其實我們可以把它放入到這個我們的名單裡面那這是剛才陳偉有講到的部分我們會直接把它放到名單裡面那只要放到名單裡面他就可以來跟我們申請強化版的規管安定措施"},{"start":2858.086,"end":2880.772,"text":"可是部長強化版的僱傭安定措施基金來源是救安基金所以如果編入因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案當中如果這筆特別預算假設沒有通過的話那已經申請減班休息的通報個案的薪資貼補會不會受到影響那勞動部要如何因應"},{"start":2881.112,"end":2901.792,"text":"跟委員說明強化版國安定措施的經費來源是來自救保跟特別預算兩個都有可是如果假設我剛剛前面問你說那到底可以接住多少你說都不會都沒有量可是經費沒有考量所以我們現在現在大院也在九樓正在審查這個"},{"start":2903.113,"end":2923.742,"text":"特別預算我們當然希望爭取我們這一次行政院讓我們編列150億的特別預算能夠順利的通過我想這個因為這個錢真的都是來支持勞工來協助勞工的錢對是很重要的對我們希望真的能夠能夠讓這個順利的然後能夠三讀然後讓勞工朋友有一個更大的支持"},{"start":2926.025,"end":2937.601,"text":"在這些受到影響 申請減班休息的勞工裡邊包括了中高齡的就業者 根據勞動部的資料中高齡就業者 覺得45歲以上在製造業中占全體的42.22%"},{"start":2940.385,"end":2954.762,"text":"製造業事實上是關稅的重災區一旦企業實施減班休息也就是他們往往會被列為優先的休息名單我們好不容易通過中高齡及高齡者就業促進法希望讓中高齡成為勞動力來源的新選項"},{"start":2958.466,"end":2974.916,"text":"以解決我們少子化的問題可是他們可能都是而且他們最主要是他們可能都是每一個家庭經濟支柱而且中高齡可能事實上是這時候是負擔最大的還是可能在念私立大學然後家裡的支出如果他還有房貸的話這些都會是一個問題"},{"start":2976.007,"end":3001.011,"text":"那他需要撫養孩子也可能需要撫養長輩再加上年紀的因素職場本來就很不友善的話如果再因為減班的休息減少收入那就會沒辦法支撐他平常所的一些開銷所以想問部長說這些申請減班休息的勞工當中有多少的中高齡是不是你能夠很充分的去掌握到這個比例"},{"start":3002.482,"end":3019.65,"text":"我想其實因為如果通報的勞工當然是可以講我們當然是可以去進一步去去確認大概有多少比例是中高齡但是就是剛剛委員講其實講的沒有錯其實我們在這一次相關的移營關稅跟勞工的這個就業措施裡面其實我們特別關注中高齡的問題"},{"start":3020.911,"end":3035.936,"text":"所以其實在我們10月發布了一個計畫叫做勞工就業通在這個勞工就業通計畫裡面我們也特別把幾個服務整合進來其中一個很重要的就是職務在設計因為如果我們要協助中高齡的勞工失業的話要轉業"},{"start":3037.716,"end":3063.715,"text":"轉業的時候他們會特別需要比方像植物在設計這樣子的服務來讓他能夠更適應可能一個新的就業環境所以我們特別把像這樣給整合進來那另外其實我們也考慮到這所以我們其實這段時間一些辦訓所以我們也請發安署在辦訓訓練的過程裡面特別針對希望針對多一些是針對中高齡的勞工他們可能現在所需要的一些技能的訓練來去做課程的設計"},{"start":3065.336,"end":3082.075,"text":"我們這都是特別思考到說那怎麼樣更多顧及到中高齡勞工的狀況我覺得真的要注意因為我去年在質詢的時候針對勞動議題就已經講過說很多55歲以上就被優退表面上叫優退實際上事實上就是某種程度上資遣"},{"start":3082.615,"end":3107.687,"text":"對他們很多時候事實上是家庭資助者的話通常不利條件那接下來這個關稅的狀況又是比較多時候事實上製造業的又比較多是中高齡那最大衝擊又在中高齡所以我們很擔心所以我也希望勞動部可以去做這樣的一個調查所以也要確定所謂的減班休息是不是真正的雙方合意還是事實上是"},{"start":3108.408,"end":3117.143,"text":"資方強迫的我覺得如果是強迫的有人來檢舉就是說沒有經過勞工統一的話那這其實就是違反勞基法22條但這是我們會直接開罰的對"},{"start":3119.156,"end":3145.984,"text":"可是有沒有就說這種也很怕的事實上是通常為什麼過去我們的受僱方會比較不敢去做申訴有時候是被點名做記號的所以對他們來講也是有一些壓力所以我是建議說是不是建立我們的減班休息的通報的年齡的分布統計以外然後能夠掌握到我們中高齡的勞工的一個整個通報數量還有能夠定期去做調查"},{"start":3146.864,"end":3175.505,"text":"來掌握我們的減班休息的落實的一些狀況第三個事實上還是要強化中高齡就業者的主動關懷這個也是我去年一直再三提醒說55歲以上真的有沒有去了解他們所被優退真的事實上是優退嗎還是事實上是被另外一種支遣的方式只是為了減少因為畢竟如果到的小主管的時候薪水比較高的話他把他優退他再請一個薪水比較低的我覺得都會很不利於我們的中高齡的人"},{"start":3176.346,"end":3196.302,"text":"那再來就是想問是說整個面對職災的勞工政府到底能做什麼因為目前勞工職業災害保險跟保護法裡面在111年的5月1號正式施行之後勞動部在持續推動這個所謂的FARP"},{"start":3199.344,"end":3219.493,"text":"跟地方政府來配合關懷勞工那到底這個主動關懷到底是什麼尤其事實上從你們的調查裡邊也就是說你們職業災害的失能勞工就業關懷調查就發現說他們平均緩肥職場要12.2個月甚至復工的實際計畫的協商職災的人都是曠日廢死"},{"start":3222.074,"end":3248.832,"text":"所以我們想問這110年的調查有它的意義在才會知道有12.2個月可是110年調查之後就不再調查所以想問說關懷調查有沒有要再啟動才能夠了解你的主動關懷到底有沒有辦法落實而且這種關懷到底能不能是讓他們能夠是得到因為有數據才能夠有後邊的對應措施所以想問說你這個職業災害失能的勞工就業關懷調查要持續調查嗎"},{"start":3252.055,"end":3254.682,"text":"因為我們要知道它到底有沒有能夠發揮效用"},{"start":3255.536,"end":3281.887,"text":"這個跟穆仁說明其實對於職財勞工的關懷我想這件事情是我們一定會持續做的甚至我們包括職安署跟地方的勞政單位其實我們都有相關專業的人力持續在做這個他是用一個個案管理的方式在處理所以他可能不是不一定是一次性的調查對這個部分來說是持續性要做的工作那至於重返職場的時間因為確實不同的勞工他的狀況不一樣"},{"start":3284.608,"end":3305.614,"text":"有些如果他比較嚴重的他就需要比較久一點的時間有的時候甚至我們也看到一些案例是勞工明明他覺得他還沒有好他還需要持續的在做這個復原的休養的狀況但是資方一直覺得你就趕快上工你趕快上工然後這裡面產生的衝突我們也看到一些案例是這種狀況所以確實這個能夠重返職場的時間"},{"start":3311.195,"end":3336.782,"text":"所以部長相對的關懷協助你這一個有一個段落叫關懷協助所以你的主動關懷協助就很重要所以我覺得政府應該發揮主動的服務的精神一定是主動因為我們甚至是用個案管理的方式來做這個關懷那也包括統整相關的資源能夠讓職災勞工可以了解他可以有什麼資源包括就醫的資源 保險的資源或者是哪些部分他其實可以來做使用這是用個案管理的方式就用這個案例為"},{"start":3338.062,"end":3359.629,"text":"實案為例 就是說 職災的勞工家屬在一審判定的時候不是職災 當初你們勞動部也是判定他不是職災可是二審的時候判定卻又是職災那不管最後三審結果為何 這個據案發時間已經三千天了請問部長 這之間的所有損失都可以申請嗎如果不行的話 有沒有其他方式可以幫助職災家屬呢"},{"start":3361.63,"end":3371.117,"text":"那而且旨在勞工個案主動服務在此時有沒有主動介入因為剛剛講的關懷協助是這樣蠻重要的所以過去有沒有介入如何質疑"},{"start":3373.297,"end":3397.213,"text":"還是要跟委員說其實我們的PASS都希望能夠都是處在主動協助但如果有做得更好的空間那我們也願意來做一些檢討但的確我們PASS的同仁是很辛苦但是有更好的空間我們都願意來檢討那這個案子我們非常非常關注確實他一審跟二審的判決不一樣所以我們也跟當時我們也跟這些相關的包括他的協助的團體來跟他們說"},{"start":3400.095,"end":3415.577,"text":"如果需要做一些重新的檢視我們也很願意來做重新的檢視來做相關的認定部長可能未來真的要更進一步的是如果真的個案能夠及早去介入的話那事實幫助大概就不會要讓他走到司法還要透過"},{"start":3416.451,"end":3431.424,"text":"我覺得一審二審然後讓他等待三千天最後得到的結果呢假設是最後第三審是實在認定的話真的這些損失到底要跟誰要這個三千天確實蠻長的所以這也是這個勞工很辛苦的很辛苦的地方"},{"start":3432.024,"end":3457.283,"text":"但是的确在三年前灾保法上路以后现在整体的机制是有更完备包括PAS它要协助掌握跟整合的一些服务也更完备但我们最近其实也在做相关的检讨能够给职灾劳工什么更多的制度性的支持我们应会尽快来把给职灾劳工更制度性的支持我们会尽快的来这个政策研拟到一个阶段我们就会来公开"},{"start":3457.603,"end":3481.015,"text":"所以最後我的建議就是請盤點那個FAP專業服務人員的人數進行適當的分配還有檢討現行的給付機制及時保障我們的勞權還有縮短真的行政程序有時候聽說派案通報之後派案還要三個月所以讓他們可以加速重返職場如果他們能夠身體狀況OK的話能夠重返職場的話應該加速我們都願意來檢討謝謝署長 謝謝"},{"start":3487.665,"end":3503.866,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員發言接下來請邱振軍委員發言我們就請我們紅部長請紅部長"},{"start":3508.476,"end":3535.028,"text":"教練早部長好部長我請問勞動部在我們10月1日的時候公布最新的這個減班休息統計那全國共有398家企業8505名勞工比9月中旬再增加了65家1171人可是我看到你們報告裡面在寫較前期平緩一些我不知道我想請教一下就是我們這平緩的意思是什麼"},{"start":3535.988,"end":3562.287,"text":"因為前一期9月16號的時候那一天那次的公佈是增加2471人那在10月1號的時候人數是增加1171人那我們這個因為是慢慢往上漲嗎人數還是增加的但是增加的數字比前一次公佈來的少一些可是他的整個數字看起來是那一個月增加了3000多人"},{"start":3563.267,"end":3569.835,"text":"對 所以它比上一個月來講所以我的意思說我們跟前一期比較的話的確它增加的人數有崩潰一些你看這個圖是你們畫的嘛"},{"start":3571.997,"end":3595.132,"text":"對不對 你看那個線這個怎麼會覺得會平緩呢所以我覺得很奇怪那個 秋遠如果可以仔細看我們那個寫的句子如果前一張投影片你是指前一次嘛 對不對跟前一期9月16號的發佈來比較到了這個9月底嘛那一天那次是增加2400那因為這一次增加是1100你看那個線也看起來很陡耶怎麼會平緩這走路會跌倒耶"},{"start":3596.533,"end":3613.494,"text":"我們沒有要我們不會因為這個數字的起伏而放鬆我們其實都是全力戒備在這個事情上我其實沒有要指責什麼意思我只是說有時候用詞這有點讓人家覺得說你這個是在粉飾太平的感覺沒有 我們絕對沒有要粉飾太平所以因為我們看到這個絕對沒有粉飾"},{"start":3614.895,"end":3638.86,"text":"這個已經從你這個來看就是從全國無薪加是245家4863人9月底變成398家8505人這個數字一個月增加了3600多人那增幅高達75%所以當然我們從4月份來看它的整個是非常明顯的那整個來看沒有一個月是下降的這個確實說我們應該要多注意一下這個狀況那這個"},{"start":3643.345,"end":3661.996,"text":"部長你認為這個還會往上漲嗎我覺得這都要從趨勢來看那我覺得我們要有目前您看這樣子我們關稅的影響狀況已經達到高峰了沒有我自己是認為我們其實都要"},{"start":3663.274,"end":3689.816,"text":"我們都不應該去預設最好的狀況是怎樣一個行政部門的角度來說我們一定是預設如果狀況還會惡化那我們的因應措施能不能夠讓勞工或讓企業得到幫助我們應該都是要從這個角度我也看到了你們在報告裡面寫到從4月9號到10月1號我們勞動力發展署已經仿視了20619家這點我當然給你們肯定只是說那我想請問一下就是說有多少家"},{"start":3690.757,"end":3710.809,"text":"目前是正在實施減班或休息的又有多少家未來有可能會走向這個五金有沒有評估過跟文說明現在實施減班休息總共是398大概快400家那我們的確現在看到在這些實施減班休息家屬裡面比較集中在幾個行業"},{"start":3712.29,"end":3730.993,"text":"那大概幾個我們在報告裡面有提到包括像金屬製品製造那機械設備製造業然後也包括這個其他運輸工具那也包括像這個汽車零組件那這幾個行業是現在看到減慢休息比較集中的行業"},{"start":3732.194,"end":3759.868,"text":"對 所以我們也針對這幾個行業也去做特別的關心也掌握他們行業內現在一些變化的動態這也要很謝謝我們發展署各地分署的同仁當然我希望就是說你們在這個過程當中不要只是為了達成這個數字而去做這件事情不是說我看了多少家應該是我們期待看到說我們幫多少家企業解決了問題協助到了多少家企業這才是我們仿似的目的 對不對"},{"start":3760.768,"end":3774.644,"text":"跟文說明剛才講我們講到幾個減班休息比較多的行業其實現在我們都有放到我們這個強化版安定措施的行業別裡面也就是現在這些比較多的減班休息的企業其實"},{"start":3776.418,"end":3800.329,"text":"只要他們有來通報那我們都可以有相關的薪資差額補貼給他們我看到你們在報告裡面講到有76.3293家企業適用這個雇用安定基金的措施那有83.6%大概7106位的勞工可以申請這個薪資差額補貼那我請問一下這個有在領了嗎有有多少人領"},{"start":3803.47,"end":3820.02,"text":"目前來申請的 有多少目前在有申請資格跟我們說明目前有申請資格然後有來申請的大概快接近一半有一半了是不是那另外一半現在我們因為每個來跟我們通報的我們都會去了解"},{"start":3820.78,"end":3837.402,"text":"那还有一半是因为他可能还因为我们的规定是要30天后减半休息30天后才能来有的是30天还没到那或者是有些还在补件那也有一些企业他是说他们可能想要三个月来申请一次就是所以可能会有延后来申请的状况"},{"start":3837.782,"end":3856.014,"text":"好 我希望不要說這個措施這個既然做了我們這些企業都沒有得到幫助那我再問一個就是說我發現你們在報告裡面講到有105家不適用這個雇用安定措施的廠商是什麼原因讓他們不適用"},{"start":3857.415,"end":3882.496,"text":"因為其實我們這個強化版的公安徑措施比較是針對國際的經貿情勢的不確定所以它跟經貿沒有關係的就不受這個就不用協助就對了應該是說我們這個強化版公安措施其實是比較是針對關稅或者國際經貿情勢所影響的那的確有一些企業它實時減慢休息的原因它是直接影響還是間接影響你們這個怎麼區分呢"},{"start":3884.878,"end":3905.85,"text":"相關的影響當然我們都是因為他可能他的產業他的工作他只是做人的下游廠商對不對他並沒有直接影響那這樣的適用嗎我們不是用我們不是用上下游來想我們是用行業別來框定那我們現在有公告的九個行業這九個行業當然很大部分是經濟部來跟我們說就是說"},{"start":3906.95,"end":3933.579,"text":"哪些行業目前因為我們這個關稅的稅率或國際情勢相比於其他國家那包括它供應鏈的分佈的狀態它會受到影響那經營部來跟我們說它會受到影響我們就把它放入行業鏈裡面不啦 我希望這樣啦就是說像這些沒有辦法列入的這些企業我們是不是更要進一步瞭解它是不是真的真的不是因為這個影響因為這個有些會還是會有一些你用行業別來列還是會有一些盲點好不好"},{"start":3935.355,"end":3949.244,"text":"我們當然會持續的檢視是不是這個行業比較在擴大我們其實都在滾動的檢討那另外我看到你們那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算裡面我們勞動部總共拿到250億那就是"},{"start":3952.833,"end":3972.85,"text":"我們的目的就是要穩就業防關稅的衝擊是吧是可是我看到你們裡面有100億是拿去撥補勞保基金我想請問這個跟這個因應國際情勢有什麼關係跟文說明這是兩個部分我們其實原本在行政院在那為什麼不在本預算裡面提呢"},{"start":3973.991,"end":3991.084,"text":"我們在行政院編列的過程裡面其實本來就是有150億其實是針對這個關稅的情勢的安定就業那有100億是勞保基金的撥補對這個跟這個特別預算特別預算放這個撥補勞保基金不是有點怪嗎"},{"start":3992.925,"end":4017.2,"text":"跟委員說明我們當然在公務預算裡面明年的公務預算裡面其實有撥補1200億那當然為什麼還在100億其實我們政府其實對於勞保勞保的水位的支持是我們持續性的不斷的在檢視所以當然我們現在在稅計剩餘下我們認為有一點空間可以再多給勞工的勞保多一點安定跟穩定但是我覺得那你在編預算的時候你1200億不然你就編1300嘛"},{"start":4019.341,"end":4025.694,"text":"你怎麼會在這邊用這個國安任性特別預算裡面來那個呢這讓我們覺得這有點趁火打劫"},{"start":4029.853,"end":4055.187,"text":"委員 這都是兩個都不同的事情委員 這都是支持勞工的經費給勞工的經費絕對不是趁火打錢不過這是兩件事一個是勞退 勞保基金一個是因應國際情勢 這不太一樣委員 因應國際情勢是151那勞保的撥補是100億這兩件事情不是同一個事情我們當然這次好 那我簡單問你"},{"start":4057.688,"end":4075.704,"text":"那這100億裡面有多少錢是進到這些減半倍降薪的勞工口袋裡面沒有 委員還是要說這是兩件事情我們在因應國際情勢是150億那另外100億是勞保的撥補那之前包括也有用特別預算來去做勞保撥補這是我們的財政狀況跟稅劑剩餘"},{"start":4078.146,"end":4098.284,"text":"如果國家的財政狀況稅計算有一點餘裕的話我想這代表是勞工政府對於勞保財務的一種支持對啦 勞保財務是長期性的問題啦那每年都在撥補的嘛我希望就事論是這個每一件事情我不希望在你夾雜在這個特別預算裡面就很怪啊"},{"start":4100.126,"end":4117.234,"text":"委員這不是夾雜特別預算這是我們是我們財政的狀況稅計剩餘的狀況所以你現在覺得財政狀況很好對不對不是不是財政狀況當然因為財化法修法可是今年的稅計剩餘的確有一點空間那我們就認為應該把這一點空間拿來支持勞工跟勞保"},{"start":4118.43,"end":4131.254,"text":"我們是站在一個希望只要能夠多支持勞工一點多支持勞保一點我們就願意多做一點因為剛好國際情勢那這樣子看起來我們政府覺得國際情勢越亂越好啊這樣你們才可以趕快來編補趕快多弄點錢這個時候我們大家當然就知道產業受到衝擊我們需要一些經費來支持"},{"start":4140.217,"end":4158.894,"text":"那可是你不能說看到立法院好像要給錢了然後我們這些部門趕快你們自己沒不夠的趕快補一補 趕快協議委員 這個錢不是叫立法院給錢這個錢國家的財政是來自於稅收跟稅金對 沒錯啊 但是還是要立法院通過嘛 對不對立法院願意給了嘛 願意給了那當然不會擋嘛"},{"start":4160.015,"end":4183.658,"text":"我們希望盡力爭取立法院的支持我們當然是不會去擋這種什麼特別預算而且是因應國際情勢這個變化的錢只是說我希望說這筆錢一歸一 二歸二就希望把它弄清楚好不好那個跟委員說明其實朝野的委員也都希望我們在撥補這部分只要能夠多做的都希望能夠多做一些這不一樣的事情當然你如果多做在勞工我全力支持"},{"start":4184.378,"end":4193.724,"text":"這當然都做在勞工勞保撥補當然都是用在勞工身上的你怎麼那麼愛變咧對不對好好講不聽不要講了啦不要講好謝謝邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":4213.084,"end":4220.093,"text":"接下來請我們廖偉強委員謝謝主席 請洪森安部長來 部長委員好 部長好"},{"start":4227.079,"end":4240.765,"text":"根據行政院長卓榮泰他在10月7號的時候在立法院也證實那目前全國共有398家的事業單位實施減班休息那影響人數達到8505人"},{"start":4243.826,"end":4267.807,"text":"那其中跟美國關稅相關的是310家那影響也超過7000人也創了一年半以來的新高那也就是說關稅實施宣布以來的最高點可以看到這個線圖是非常的陡峭那關稅的海嘯已經看來已經要來臨了那其中製造業的佔比呢高達了95%主要也集中在"},{"start":4268.767,"end":4288.82,"text":"機械設備的製造廠大概140家3559人那金屬製品的製造業還有汽車零組件及運輸工具製造業那我還也是想要再問一下那目前為止我們勞動部我們洪部長你要如何評估此波的關稅衝擊對於我國勞動市場的實際影響程度"},{"start":4293.163,"end":4318.012,"text":"或者更精確的說未來三個未來短期的話啦三個月以內你們的預估是什麼那中長期甚至到一年半一年一年以內預估受影響的人會是怎麼樣的情況還是要還是會如司長所說他受訪的時候講到的訂單回流趨勢在趨緩當中我想要請問一下部長你對於這件事情你的評估"},{"start":4319.68,"end":4339.506,"text":"跟文說 因為的確現在在關稅衝擊產業或勞工就業的評估其實包括學界 包括智庫 包括產業都有很多評估其實我們並不是一份報告我們並不是用一份報告的角度來想而是我們其實只要有相關的評估 我們都會去了解部長我想請問 那你們低中高怎麼評估它"},{"start":4340.146,"end":4363.366,"text":"可是你們應該其實我一直講嘛就是評估要你們一定要有一定的評估不是說不能有誤差那你的低中高你怎麼判斷因為我這樣問的意思是說我大概知道部長你等一下一定會說我們會用最審慎的態度以對可是我覺得這樣子不夠精確也不夠負責任我想要知道的是有沒有明確的評估說低中高你們認為"},{"start":4364.427,"end":4384.31,"text":"低推估中推估高推估因為因為剛剛有講到你們的報告裡面寫到這個笑上一起這個平緩我覺得這的確是讓人家有一種喪事喜辦的感覺沒有絕對不是粉飾太平的感覺絕對不是對我沒有啊我現在要跟你講說你的報告裡面寫出來是這樣讓我們非常憂心你"},{"start":4385.071,"end":4410.228,"text":"低估了這件事情因為有許多的報告說真正的影響可能是年底或是明年甚至是明年一整年對吧那現在才剛開始我就是想要問對於勞動部來講你的評估是什麼你有沒有去做低中高的推估那各自應該怎麼去判斷跟我說我們也看到蠻多產業界的評估認為有可能關稅的衝擊也可能還會有些延遲"},{"start":4411.389,"end":4427.325,"text":"就是說比方說會有一些遞延的狀況遞延的狀況所以我想從政府的角度我們都是去設想相對嚴峻的狀況我覺得這才是負責任對部長你講對了但是你這個還是空話我剛說你沒有去做精確的推估"},{"start":4428.146,"end":4450.738,"text":"因為這個趨勢圖嘛 你一直說你們會看趨勢嘛 當然 可是你的回答讓我 讓本席認為啊 這個都沒有真正的聚焦回答出你們究竟有沒有做低中高的推估那這數據到底是什麼呢 因為我剛已經預測你的回答 我們基本上都是 我們會綜合目前產業上面的資訊也包括智庫學界的資訊 所以這是為什麼"},{"start":4451.178,"end":4472.016,"text":"沒有部長這還是空話我想問你有沒有推估你現在推估的數據有沒有一個有沒有一個真正的趨勢跟文說明這絕對不是空話因為我們是請我們的發展署每個禮拜都必須去update現在最新的產業狀況那可不可以請發展署的署長回答你們有沒有推估就是假設用這個未來的趨勢圖有沒有一個不同的走向你覺得大概會是什麼樣子"},{"start":4473.257,"end":4487.585,"text":"我們不是用一套推估的方式啦因為因為現在業界或者是智庫相關的推估或者相關的評估很多所以我們是綜合這些資訊然後來做假設相對嚴峻的狀況發生的話我們有那你的嚴峻狀況的"},{"start":4489.366,"end":4510.756,"text":"當然我們必須假設嚴峻的狀況是這個數字還會增加嗎那增加的你覺得是多少有沒有一個數字比如說到年底你預估多少到明年初預估多少那你打算怎麼應對部長之所以我要求這件事情是因為所有的政策你也有遞延的狀況發生比如說你現在預備的這個政策"},{"start":4513.877,"end":4537.896,"text":"那等到真正發生的時候你沒準備好還要通過很多行政程序的時候受傷的還是勞工這就是為什麼我一直說我們當然要準備那所以我想我就是真的很具體的想問部長因為我們其實已經花了大概五分鐘的時間你一直不跟我講具體你們推估的狀況是什麼就算你說你用最嚴峻的情況來看待那我也覺得很好部長可以對著大家說或是在這個質詢的時候說你預計嚴重的狀況是什麼會達到多少人"},{"start":4542.264,"end":4556.387,"text":"好 你預估比較嚴重的狀況我們認為這個產業影響的狀況不一定是一個數字但是我們就是會用我們會設想相對嚴峻的狀況我們都要把它設想進來的這樣子的態度跟立場來去規劃我們相關支持的措施"},{"start":4557.631,"end":4574.257,"text":"其實部長因為你們說你們每兩個禮拜公布一下這個公布這個數據嘛對不對對之所以要公布數據第一個讓社會大眾知道狀況第二個是要讓大家預測未來可能是什麼狀況然後好做因應所以包含部尤其是你是第一線的"},{"start":4575.077,"end":4591.083,"text":"部會首長尤其是勞動部我們已經花了很多時間你還是不願意回答說你們的嚴峻狀況到底是什麼我很不好意思因為我覺得這個的確很重要我很希望部長可以誠實的面對或者是說告訴我你們到底有沒有推估還是你沒有推估"},{"start":4591.923,"end":4605.996,"text":"那你如果沒有推估我可不可以告訴你說你們回去推估三個程度的狀況可以嗎跟文說明我們是持續不斷的評估甚至最新的這些因為其實你前面上前面的這個質詢的委員你有說這個我們要看趨勢"},{"start":4607.877,"end":4624.628,"text":"對啊 要看趨勢啊那你的趨勢到底是什麼趨勢是往未來走的現在這個是已經繼承的事實可是你明明也講說你們會看趨勢我們當然必須去做未來這個數字還會增加的準備就一個行政部門的角度來說我們當然必須做這個數字還會增加的準備"},{"start":4625.709,"end":4639.9,"text":"當然那當然對那你的準備是準備多少嗎就是說你預估是多少部長你不能一直跟我繞啊這個我們光一個問題我這個我就問不出來你到底推估的是多少跟我們說明因為其實就業衝擊的狀況"},{"start":4641.421,"end":4664.468,"text":"第一波最前面可能像是減班休息那當然狀況不好的時候可能會沒有你講的是我現在問你你預估的是什麼然後然後現在的推估到年底我們我們剛剛一直說過你看了各種模型那那你可不可以告訴我你看了哪些模型你預估有人說比較悲觀比較樂觀到年底到明年是多少你有沒有做好準備我們想要知道是這個然後你的趨勢你有沒有"},{"start":4665.508,"end":4686.285,"text":"你腦子裡面有沒有想說我們可能現在你剛說最嚴峻的狀況請問最嚴峻的狀況你認為是多少跟文說明齁其實當然這個業界裡面相關的評估有些比較樂觀有些比較沒那麼樂觀好那你講一下樂觀和沒那麼樂觀是多少就比方說可能會不會關稅的訂單的衝擊"},{"start":4688.406,"end":4700.169,"text":"會有遞延的狀況我們剛剛講過 對那所以我想不一定它是一個數字我說那整個影響的衝擊的狀況它不一定是一個數字可是我們都會來預先部長我想要說啦"},{"start":4701.485,"end":4721.352,"text":"我們今天之水排這個案就是要擔心說未來的衝擊會衝擊勞工的失業更加嚴峻因為看到現在走勢圖已經變得非常陡峭可是我想要很遺憾的說我今天已經問了八分鐘的時間部長沒有辦法講出一個到年底你預估可能的狀況跟明年的狀況可能是怎麼樣"},{"start":4722.432,"end":4749.6,"text":"我覺得我非常遺憾這個身為勞動部的部長組織機關怎麼會不能回答這個問題而且一直避著回答呢我覺得即便你告訴大家說可能很嚴峻我覺得這對於社會也有一個預期的心態可以去做準備嘛然後也可以讓人家知道說好我們部長照著這個嚴峻的狀況來做準備我們可以安心我們可以告訴大家說好這個勞動部會充分的準備結果很遺憾我為了8分鐘"},{"start":4750.62,"end":4768.361,"text":"居然講不出來我甚至說那你告訴我一個樂觀的不樂觀的是怎麼樣我想部長我的諮詢的問題應該沒有很多跟文說明比方說如果失業的狀況比較多所以我們也準備了這個勞工就業通的計劃勞工就業通的計劃就是來針對失業勞工他如果要轉職"},{"start":4769.002,"end":4786.338,"text":"那既然你準備了這些計畫難道你不是有一個根據嗎就是說我今天看到這個數據了我的根據是什麼你要準備這些計畫根據是什麼好我跟你說這個問題因為我後面還有很多題目結果8分鐘來我們的部長沒有辦法回答這個問題我想要請問勞動部統計"},{"start":4791.277,"end":4815.418,"text":"尤其是這一次大台中地區成為無薪假最大的重災區有117家那有2598人實施無薪假 佔全國總數的30.5%其次是台南市55家1328人彰化縣市35家1135人那其實基本上光大台中地區第一名就超過了第二名第三名的總和"},{"start":4816.098,"end":4828.279,"text":"那這也反映中部的這個製造業的確是受創最重那我想要為這個部分來特別請命請問這部分有沒有什麼可以特別因應的措施"},{"start":4829.616,"end":4850.738,"text":"跟文說的確我們現在看到中部是現在在減班休息裡面通報數字最多的區域這也是為什麼其實我們在我自己在上週其實我也到中部跟中部的很多的傳統產業我們當面的做溝通跟座談來了解大家的需求"},{"start":4851.238,"end":4873.954,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來支持大家的需求所以我們也討論到很多減半休息的問題那怎麼來支持因為的確現在有一些產業跟很多的勞工他們對於我們現在的支持措施還不是這麼瞭解他們還不是那麼瞭解那也包括產業的宣傳還不足這個相關的對產業跟的確我們在這些座談的過程因為我們有對工會勞工工會的宣傳"},{"start":4874.694,"end":4903.377,"text":"也有對產業的宣傳 我們的確現在本席有參與過 他們說你們可不可以做一些簡單的圖卡可不可以就是更明確的告訴他們可以怎麼告訴他們工會的成員是 對吧應該是比較早期 現在其實都有相關的圖卡跟相關計畫的措施可是最重要的事情是 我想我們還是 我是直接的我們是直接到這個中部的現場那因為很多的產業的這個企業界的這些高階的主管 其實根本反映了蠻多的問題"},{"start":4904.017,"end":4927.671,"text":"那我們也都把這些問題收集下來一一的來希望來協助大家那具體的方案有沒有什麼我剛問的問題具體的方案是什麼第一個我們當然現在一個很重要的去支持大家減班休息的狀況當然是我們這個強化版的公安令措施的薪資差額補貼我們從過去是五成的補貼現在拉到七成 拉到七成"},{"start":4928.251,"end":4946.831,"text":"那甚至其實也可以讓企業來申請這個我們的再充電的計畫那以前是再充電計畫跟公安訂措施是不能併領的我們這次把它改成是可以併領的最多是可以領到這個勞工員們的薪資好 謝謝部長那勞動部在投資青年就業方案裡面"},{"start":4947.572,"end":4972.204,"text":"初次尋職青年穩定就業的計畫從112年到113年花費超過3億但是就業比率卻從67%下降至52%而且其中半數的青年於核發尋職津貼後不能夠連續就職滿90天進而導致青年失業率也是超過全國平均失業率的兩倍有餘"},{"start":4973.084,"end":4991.302,"text":"那在薪資層面呢勞發署投入了57億的經費執行徵好新方案希望提高青年畢業後的薪資但是110年到112年的三年期間其實青年初次任職卻只有領取基本薪資者平均大概是25%的水平"},{"start":4993.044,"end":5015.593,"text":"所以綜合上面我的意思就是說青年面對就這個面對他就業率低薪資低的情況喔勞動部投入大筆的經費成效看起來不是很不是很好喔我想要說綜合關稅的衝擊這些受影響的產業本來應該可以開缺嘛成為吸引青年人就業的管道但是現在面臨減班休息的狀況也"},{"start":5016.914,"end":5034.176,"text":"就這個自顧不暇所以他們也不可能所謂的開缺那面對青年的這個困境那也尤其剛剛說中部重災區到現在中部青年的困境部長有沒有想法怎麼改善跟恩文說沒有那因為協助"},{"start":5035.738,"end":5052.839,"text":"協助群職的青年我覺得這部分會有兩個部分第一個我們希望協助青年進入職場這是第一段第二段是希望進入職場的時間能夠持續就是說是一個比較穩定狀況的就業所以委員在這邊看到的狀況是我們在這裡面蠻多數據其實我們是有協助他第一段有進入到職場"},{"start":5053.82,"end":5068.862,"text":"可是的確會有一些青年他在這個職場裡面的穩定性還是有一段落差所以他可能工作了幾個月比方一兩個月他最後又是離職的狀況所以我想這部分我們還要再來努力我們還要再來努力"},{"start":5069.022,"end":5085.764,"text":"那部長這部分可不可以再提供本席辦公室你們的努力改善的檢討報告可以 所以我們其實這次在關稅的這個因應裡面我們其實也把我們這個初次尋職青年的穩定就業計畫我們也做了加碼 也做了再強化也是考慮到這些事情"},{"start":5086.405,"end":5109.465,"text":"其實部長我還是想要回去講我今天蠻擔心的因為因為你說你會檢討這些狀況可是我就是很擔心連原本你的預估的狀態預估的衝擊狀態到底多少好像你都不能表達所以我要回去剛剛說我第一個問題我們剛花8分鐘的問題我也想要拜託部長今天你沒辦法回答出來可是會後可提供本席辦公室你們預估的"},{"start":5111.158,"end":5140.128,"text":"比較樂觀的情況跟比較悲觀的情況可以嗎我想我們我還是要跟委員說這個所謂的預估跟評估它不一定是一個數字那我們會用一個相對嚴峻的情境如果不是數字的話那剛剛那些圖就沒有任何意義了所以我是認為是這樣你們必須要誠實的面對自己的狀況我們才可以改善所以我在這裡沒有要再給你究責這件事我希望可以會後給本席辦公室你們自己內部開會我相信你們一定有討論"},{"start":5141.309,"end":5156.862,"text":"請給我你們討論的你們認為的嚴峻狀況你們要怎麼應對的嚴峻狀況的那個數字然後我們才會回來好好講說你今天提供這些方案是不是真的可以解決這樣的情況 可以嗎我們來看一下怎麼表達"},{"start":5159.551,"end":5187.592,"text":"好因為這個跟我接下來這題有很大的關係有很多的家庭工廠很多小型的公司這個公司包含他自己個人是5到10個人遠遠不到大量解雇的範圍所以等於通報上他可能不會被納入減班休息受影響的計畫那但這樣的小型工廠其實在台灣是普遍存在請問部長這樣黑數你沒有統計到嗎如果沒有統計到受影響的統計數字是不是也會失真實際上影響的狀況有沒有可能更嚴重"},{"start":5189.995,"end":5208.563,"text":"確實當然可能可能會存在這個因為這可能如果委員按照委員紅線畫的這部分其實是歇業的廠商那如果是歇業廠商他可能就會是之前通報是如果是歇業的話那就是歇業就是之前的部分了這裡有寫"},{"start":5208.903,"end":5227.911,"text":"因真正官場歇業的企業廠商及失業勞工的黑數遠比通報者還多對 所以我意思是說因為這一條紅線畫的是官場歇業嘛它不是只是訂單減少而已嘛所以那可能就會是在之前通報的狀況下所以剛剛也有那個失業失業不是就是也是相關的數據嗎"},{"start":5229.292,"end":5245.285,"text":"所以我們剛討論失業的數據目前整體所以有沒有可能有就是統計因為你之前好像也有報導你有說也有可能有這種黑數的問題就是可能的確會有一些企業有些企業他有減半休息但他沒有通報這當然有這個狀況"},{"start":5246.311,"end":5261.327,"text":"好那再來就是剛剛有講到你們之前你們說因應要因應美國對等關稅的支持勞工就業案推動的要點裡面規劃六大工作那有一個是維持僱傭安定那你之前是先開放三個業別的申請嘛"},{"start":5261.727,"end":5280.224,"text":"那7月的時候本席也有質詢過要求未來擴大適用的產業那你當時也有承諾說你會擴大所以的確目前為止你們增加到9個業別對不對那所謂受影響的傳統產業還有包含其實現在還有包含不少被遺漏的包含鋼鐵包含水泥造紙"},{"start":5280.905,"end":5299.065,"text":"建材營造或是玻璃陶瓷化工業我想也遠遠不止這九個業別所以部長你這部分還有沒有相關的評估有沒有要納入或者是沒有納入的原因這些的跟文說因為我們相關的這個行業別當然一個部分很重要的這個行業別的來源是來自經濟部"},{"start":5299.986,"end":5312.539,"text":"因為經濟部對產業的動態當然他們有一個這個產業主管機關的部門在負責這個事情所以我們其實關於這個公告的頁別其實我們也是持續在滾動的在檢討"},{"start":5314.266,"end":5324.689,"text":"對 所以你們還是也會再看到事實的狀況你們會再擴大不會只聽經濟部的這個分析你們自己勞動部也會主動的調查我們會主動的來滾動的檢視那當然我們也會跟經濟部討論"},{"start":5330.987,"end":5352.529,"text":"好 那我們希望說你們繼續滾動的這個要及時的反映這些相關的業別像我剛剛提到這些業別他們應該也是受衝擊的產業可以請你們回去針對這些這個業別再去做評估可以嗎是 當然我們都來掌握 對好 再來就是勞動部將減班休息的工資這個差額從五成到七成嘛對不對 剛剛你有提到然後最長六個月"},{"start":5353.349,"end":5381.92,"text":"但是雖然有提升但吸引力不高最終政策成效不佳的結果也反映出來所以根據媒體報導目前你們剛說充電再出發訓練以及勞工再充電計畫參與率僅有6%成效不彰也呼應了本席的評估那請問你們要怎麼提供勞工的參訓的意願然後是不是要進一步考慮放寬申請的這個條件或是提高補助額度還是你們認為只是僅僅的宣傳不佳而已"},{"start":5382.76,"end":5387.064,"text":"跟委員說明你剛才講的薪資差額補貼跟這個充電債出發的這是兩個計畫這是不同的計畫之前綠豆不加現在的確在充電債出發的這個實施來參與的人數是比較低"},{"start":5398.115,"end":5415.452,"text":"那比較低有幾個原因我們內部也做了檢討第一個當然是宣傳的部分所以有很多的工會跟我們說希望我們擴大宣傳包括宣傳的資源其實真的很多工會都跟我們講這件事情所以真的我也要請大院來支持我們相關的一些宣傳的經費這是第一個我覺得"},{"start":5418.235,"end":5427.626,"text":"那第二個是的確一些企業他們說他們現在在一個比較辛苦的狀況他可能不一定自己有辦法現在來辦訓因為充電債出發的計畫是勞工參與訓練那如果企業辦訓的話我們會給企業辦訓的補貼"},{"start":5435.535,"end":5457.158,"text":"那勞工可以領參訓的津貼所以他的前提是有個參訓這件事情那確實的確會有些企業說他在這個階段他很辛苦所以他可能不一定那麼有能力能夠辦訓好 部長這個部分第一個你們要去檢討執行率的差別這個是為什麼執行率這麼低這短期的部分可是另外其實後面本學還有兩個題目但是我知道時間的問題"},{"start":5458.599,"end":5472.957,"text":"其實現在有這個產業轉型也有很大的問題對吧現在產業轉型是一個問題然後再來你短期我也想要講到評估譬如說現在台美的關係他們說晶片50 50它可能會導致我們整個半導體產業要移去"},{"start":5474.679,"end":5495.527,"text":"美國那我想要請問這些高科技人才轉移的時候你們有沒有一些衝擊的評估然後你要怎麼因應先我們沒有辦法把這個話題展開可是我想要提醒部長其實你這些這些半訊充電再出發有一個很重要背後的政策目的也是希望勞工轉型升級對不對幫助到台灣的產業轉型升級"},{"start":5497.228,"end":5516.125,"text":"所以你這個應該要一併的同步去討論再來就是說你的辦訓的這些項目是不是符合未來我們這些勞工產業轉型的時候或是產業的需求他的技能有沒有真的符合這些事情然後再來有沒有吸引力告訴他說你們要來上這些課程"},{"start":5517.006,"end":5519.229,"text":"我覺得這必須要一併的去討論因為現在我們的衝擊非常的大除了剛剛的傳統產業接下來就是半導體產業我們也討論到你的短期"},{"start":5531.444,"end":5552.221,"text":"應對到這些高科技人才的轉移他對我們台灣的衝擊會是什麼我們的這個勞動力的政策是什麼我們有沒有可能看遠一點把這個危機你怎麼樣未來要怎麼樣再吸引他們回來或者是在我們的內部怎麼樣讓我們現在既有的勞工要再升級我想這要部長要一併的討論那我今天質詢就到這裡謝謝謝謝我們廖偉強委員也謝謝洪部長接下來我們請王振旭委員"},{"start":5568.942,"end":5573.463,"text":"好 謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長"},{"start":5578.894,"end":5601.353,"text":"王委員好部長好今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度那第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善"},{"start":5602.154,"end":5629.16,"text":"那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號包括媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位等等的"},{"start":5629.58,"end":5652.024,"text":"那以製造業占9成5 比較多那減班的休息的產業也非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點增緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題"},{"start":5654.765,"end":5670.074,"text":"所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部"},{"start":5670.194,"end":5697.837,"text":"經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟網友說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分"},{"start":5698.976,"end":5725.877,"text":"那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王遠剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施"},{"start":5726.477,"end":5745.29,"text":"他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊"},{"start":5746.611,"end":5765.904,"text":"是 我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對於勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對於我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力"},{"start":5766.664,"end":5795.884,"text":"那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中"},{"start":5796.744,"end":5810.272,"text":"可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷檔式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也"},{"start":5812.193,"end":5827.218,"text":"做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整"},{"start":5828.938,"end":5855.093,"text":"這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣的好處就是可以控制更多機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承"},{"start":5856.434,"end":5878.502,"text":"那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告"},{"start":5879.082,"end":5901.928,"text":"那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點"},{"start":5902.708,"end":5921.463,"text":"一個就是建立中高齡勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢"},{"start":5922.824,"end":5949.551,"text":"另外就是試行寒性退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可不可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考"},{"start":5950.555,"end":5963.712,"text":"好 那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視職務在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會希望他會需要在這個職場上面"},{"start":5966.095,"end":5985.58,"text":"跟他之間有一些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發安署在那植物災設計的部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物災設計做得更到位這是第一個那第二個是委員剛剛其實講到的這幾個建議我想我自己都"},{"start":5986.44,"end":6008.968,"text":"其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟研議這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估報告"},{"start":6010.689,"end":6027.654,"text":"那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也了解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分"},{"start":6028.334,"end":6044.603,"text":"就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等"},{"start":6045.223,"end":6059.279,"text":"所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人士來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況"},{"start":6060.34,"end":6075.285,"text":"所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期最終讓我們可以掌握到職場"},{"start":6076.525,"end":6097.573,"text":"尤其是對於一些我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職涯生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好 跟務委員說明"},{"start":6099.367,"end":6115.825,"text":"其實多元培地就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計"},{"start":6118.066,"end":6137.593,"text":"比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會以上工的人次來作為思考那我們也正在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在"},{"start":6138.833,"end":6158.792,"text":"當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長"},{"start":6161.354,"end":6176.362,"text":"那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓他一些更加更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好那就大家一起努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝王振旭委員發言接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":6195.871,"end":6204.616,"text":"台主席在場的委員先進列協政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長"},{"start":6209.306,"end":6226.574,"text":"座位好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的減班休息我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓這個肉圓的陶雞已經做了幾十年之前有段時間我就看一個年輕的雞他說這是什麼我們學生啊怎麼會在這裡他就聽到我現在在找陶爐現在沒有事來我倒卡手"},{"start":6238.92,"end":6264.188,"text":"我說很好 很好啊有找到介紹嗎 好啊 委員你有沒有跟我們介紹空氣很歡迎過一陣子呢 就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦啊 你老闆勒 工廠吃滷肉啊 不錯啊但是呢 偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢 都沒有看到他兒子啊我說 欸 你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔 現在工廠喔 生意很好喔在加班喔 加班賺這麼重要"},{"start":6265.445,"end":6289.242,"text":"過一陣子 拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了就現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛 他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了 我說你們學生現在怎麼會有時候看到他他們沒來跟他打招呼"},{"start":6290.782,"end":6310.735,"text":"他說沒辦法啦 現在沒加班 要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去 他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼 今天工廠休息 但是呢前天晚上呢 人家倒上火 上家屬我請教一下喔 這種小家庭 他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候 晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎 補貼家用"},{"start":6315.171,"end":6333.27,"text":"這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好 現在問題來了問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找"},{"start":6334.446,"end":6357.887,"text":"維持生計 現在的工廠說不用五天了 三天了要給你兩天 要給你兩天是什麼在家裡敷豆芽 還是幫忙做家事 你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作 減一下因為要給你兩天嘛 在家裡沒事要賺錢 可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎"},{"start":6359.276,"end":6368.665,"text":"當然現在是可以的現在是可以的嘛好那換成你是老闆我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦你們工廠喔有請外賣嗎他說有啊 有請外賣啊現在咧現在啊 現在就兩段很久了我們省南非喔要先給"},{"start":6380.136,"end":6404.544,"text":"先給外國人休息 為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他住的地方我南非部分 我就叫外國人先休息說你們外國人休息都做什麼 說真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河 有在欠人的 對不對做農的 做稀土的 他去幫忙 這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6409.863,"end":6432.662,"text":"這樣可以嗎不然你要跟臺灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個臺灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息大概都是大家不是很樂意去見到的狀況如果你是老闆 臺灣老闆你會怎麼做"},{"start":6436.981,"end":6463.292,"text":"可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊 但是我覺得這個我們整個人看就像老闆這麼大心對不對 他們本來要外銷燃費嘛現在燃費太窮 經常都要變少嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛 要多了就給他給一些時間 要給他出名的老闆讓他今天能夠做工廠 做事情 做事頭 有團修理嘛好 現在問了請問一下 您說解萬秀一個7000多人 有沒有報案 他說"},{"start":6466.641,"end":6492.003,"text":"現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就所有的問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看"},{"start":6493.477,"end":6520.583,"text":"現在我們現在啊農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢但是台灣人喔你如果說過去喔我們中小企業中小工廠啊你如果說出來有淨產的喔你工廠檢測的事情你會回去出來什麼 倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活他不會說啊 做不來啦"},{"start":6521.343,"end":6547.051,"text":"所以誰會做 移工在做啦 好 往下看所以我們那時候呢 說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在 我就死了嘛 我就去找房子但是我已經休息了 我來幫忙做出來的工程我們都有正產的 我來看他 掛紅來啦 做一些事情那這種情況下 很普遍 我們整個有一個叫做茅頭啦"},{"start":6548.233,"end":6565.809,"text":"碼頭就是什麼公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌很多在旁財 你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信 有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁都是碼頭去救的 它有固定的卡啦現在什麼人 總裁要去辦幾桌"},{"start":6567.671,"end":6590.821,"text":"一半五十塊就一半三十塊就他就夠電的卡銷他會去繳那樣子都知道了往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下"},{"start":6594.266,"end":6623.265,"text":"有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好 那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好 請告訴我 具體來講"},{"start":6625.461,"end":6642.023,"text":"依法才能開放本國的勞工 沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查 上教室塞車 上會 可以嗎啊 移工來不能撐勤那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議 哪些違法 請告訴我"},{"start":6646.636,"end":6670.908,"text":"署長趕快你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是 報告委員基本上移工的開放當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以有哪些風險哪些爭議目前就無法有明定就是就法律規定怎樣單一僱主單一僱主法律規定嘛對不對是的好那你告訴我法律規定之外有哪些爭議有哪些違法先不講違法哪些爭議哪些失誤的問題"},{"start":6673.277,"end":6681.93,"text":"除了法律的規定之外有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明因為當時義工政策開放的事我不是問你當時我問你現在啦"},{"start":6682.861,"end":6704.776,"text":"他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以所以說我剛剛就講了嘛 老闆說就是不影響國人就業所以我減班休息 外勞先給他休息嘛啊 移工休息了那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工人休息的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊 要讓他們倒卡笑一下可以嗎"},{"start":6706.278,"end":6721.405,"text":"這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛我說哪些爭議啦有哪些實務的困難啦除了你剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙影響到誰的就業"},{"start":6723.154,"end":6736.101,"text":"影響到誰的就業你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個委員是這樣子幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎"},{"start":6737.287,"end":6753.817,"text":"我們現在對農業移工其實這樣是開放的是開放我知道好了 告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上往下看 來"},{"start":6755.198,"end":6781.007,"text":"現在呢 農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚 他就搶了他說 舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁了填提之下他提出了這個案子啦他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛"},{"start":6781.927,"end":6791.796,"text":"但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看因為以前是這樣僱傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工"},{"start":6792.492,"end":6818.935,"text":"然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有他什麼有他的間歇性有他的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊手沒工啦紅萊收完工都贏的啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭好責啦所以我就要怎樣往下看再往下看啊往回往回"},{"start":6820.495,"end":6841.185,"text":"往回看再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上往上好這個情況就是這樣子農業有他的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度"},{"start":6842.245,"end":6869.274,"text":"因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼游牧民族哪裡在採茶葉我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎"},{"start":6871.618,"end":6894.523,"text":"我好像大工手啦 吃土雞睡土雞啦 包大架啦 對吧有速食嘛 但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工 我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡 整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下 那為什麼移工要做這個事"},{"start":6896.025,"end":6919.888,"text":"為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救護法的原本管制框架至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一僱主的這個框架"},{"start":6920.689,"end":6941.636,"text":"所以我就說整個問題要留在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啦他要賺錢 他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎一天多少錢嗎其實蠻多的兩千七條啦"},{"start":6943.26,"end":6971.636,"text":"三千的也有啦 看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊他有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工我們有在漆鼻的 去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後七點農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝八點去上工做到了五點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢"},{"start":6973.576,"end":7001.868,"text":"那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係"},{"start":7002.768,"end":7024.452,"text":"他不用逃逸 他不用失聯為什麼 因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了他就不會長大而且呢 這個老公來講 同樣回去怎麼樣工廠包大隻 工廠包吃住那這個工廠吃住的時候 誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛我告訴你 你的工廠 我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠 我會貼你嗎 我當然也貼你"},{"start":7029.87,"end":7044.13,"text":"所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸不會失聯往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣"},{"start":7045.441,"end":7068.771,"text":"有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務 務農的外移工啊 安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠"},{"start":7072.893,"end":7086.25,"text":"職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以"},{"start":7089.055,"end":7115.06,"text":"這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個會館我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是直接講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道"},{"start":7116.195,"end":7134.683,"text":"就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有可是對我們農業很大的幫忙"},{"start":7135.714,"end":7146.432,"text":"所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住"},{"start":7147.475,"end":7174.689,"text":"但是這些移工竟然請啊你可能 美女就恢復啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我不會把他遣散 我不會嘛我希望這些移工的繼續在我的工廠欸 申請移工不簡單耶那既然這樣子 有人隔壁出兵有欠工的他去幫倒卡車 給他夾兩三千 賺一下對不對 都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠 能夠好管理有什麼不好 署長請告訴我什麼不好"},{"start":7176.346,"end":7197.183,"text":"勞保署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請勞保署回答請勞保署回答"},{"start":7200.781,"end":7217.907,"text":"我們有 是 鮑委員我們有一程序成合那是不是 有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案"},{"start":7219.455,"end":7242.35,"text":"講了一些空空的問題什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以部長回去研究一下可不可以"},{"start":7244.471,"end":7260.299,"text":"我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下 謝謝謝謝中加兵委員發言"},{"start":7266.721,"end":7279.805,"text":"的確我們那個中南部尤其是到南投的時候還有這個在離山這種農業季的時候非常多的這樣的相關的問題好那再來請林淑芬委員發言宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘"},{"start":7294.31,"end":7298.996,"text":"謝謝主席 是不是請我們洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長"},{"start":7305.688,"end":7327.869,"text":"林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關暨邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個"},{"start":7330.491,"end":7358.949,"text":"發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國"},{"start":7360.73,"end":7377.478,"text":"韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soul farm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業"},{"start":7380.384,"end":7396.85,"text":"還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前 對"},{"start":7397.89,"end":7420.507,"text":"那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這一些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了"},{"start":7421.067,"end":7443.902,"text":"可是在今年這個時候這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來這個姿勢體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑"},{"start":7445.263,"end":7467.396,"text":"華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withhold release order要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留"},{"start":7468.116,"end":7483.615,"text":"那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢"},{"start":7486.192,"end":7507.286,"text":"我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視"},{"start":7510.228,"end":7525.714,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不少你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法"},{"start":7528.815,"end":7549.331,"text":"包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉"},{"start":7551.733,"end":7573.873,"text":"這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易 對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面 被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個 你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個 你出口轉賣 退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣 不要到我美國來第三個 你放棄這些貨物銷毀"},{"start":7575.956,"end":7586.618,"text":"那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP它會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀"},{"start":7587.662,"end":7609.218,"text":"知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的"},{"start":7614.655,"end":7637.504,"text":"棕櫚油被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽棕櫚油"},{"start":7643.903,"end":7651.59,"text":"我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":7656.773,"end":7684.912,"text":"我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易"},{"start":7687.535,"end":7690.341,"text":"我們講馬來西亞 不要再講他們的中旅遊"},{"start":7692.688,"end":7713.442,"text":"這個還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove他包含啦這個退還外籍工人的仲介費他被發布了這個戰扣令以後他馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費支付了賠償金改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核"},{"start":7717.404,"end":7736.075,"text":"所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊 超過一年以上CBP才解除他可是你知道他損失多少錢嗎他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢"},{"start":7746.021,"end":7750.268,"text":"應該 我記得是上億不是 不止在 準是36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金"},{"start":7756.735,"end":7776.124,"text":"美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈暫扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟"},{"start":7777.385,"end":7796.06,"text":"勞資是息息相關的你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年"},{"start":7796.6,"end":7810.864,"text":"去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我質詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上"},{"start":7812.665,"end":7841.504,"text":"我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括"},{"start":7843.245,"end":7865.119,"text":"這個招聘的費用 相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的"},{"start":7869.144,"end":7896.549,"text":"在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候不要忘了"},{"start":7896.989,"end":7924.462,"text":"還有兩篇報導都是Peter Benson當時2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務"},{"start":7926.428,"end":7954.856,"text":"我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了"},{"start":7955.416,"end":7982.895,"text":"因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是Peter Benson他在2025年今年3月"},{"start":7984.11,"end":7999.974,"text":"的確對台灣又做了我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車 衛星而今年它很具體巨大就在它的調查裡面它針對好幾家包括電子產業"},{"start":8002.415,"end":8018.035,"text":"包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工他們訪談了吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎"},{"start":8022.195,"end":8035.532,"text":"應該是 他應該在場外是訪談我有看到那篇報導對啊 很多個詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了但是報道 整篇報道我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們捷安特訪談了20名以上20名以上"},{"start":8038.856,"end":8063.557,"text":"現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長"},{"start":8065.707,"end":8088.755,"text":"其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎"},{"start":8089.876,"end":8103.809,"text":"這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場"},{"start":8106.496,"end":8124.081,"text":"他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長 針對這個事情我一直講知識體大 可是你怎麼回應你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案 講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險"},{"start":8130.102,"end":8152.587,"text":"勞動部已經著手研議 強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計畫期望可協助企業辨識 評估風險 進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說的好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊 不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明"},{"start":8154.767,"end":8174.732,"text":"第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個"},{"start":8179.685,"end":8199.822,"text":"來 國際規範呢 就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第1款 第1項"},{"start":8202.344,"end":8224.398,"text":"在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎"},{"start":8226.906,"end":8251.828,"text":"這個我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了 這些都講很多年第一個 虐待弱勢第二個 欺騙第三個 扣留工資第四個 債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十 第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班"},{"start":8253.57,"end":8264.403,"text":"債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的"},{"start":8265.313,"end":8281.627,"text":"我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那"},{"start":8283.809,"end":8305.306,"text":"不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年"},{"start":8305.806,"end":8309.349,"text":"延後一年那也是一樣所以我們勢必要面對這個問題所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷地用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對"},{"start":8322.961,"end":8341.108,"text":"這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上"},{"start":8342.529,"end":8371.27,"text":"我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們有進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有駐場但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個Peter Benson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你"},{"start":8372.501,"end":8399.017,"text":"我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有"},{"start":8401.11,"end":8420.351,"text":"你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢"},{"start":8422.065,"end":8440.445,"text":"如果你這個大企業指標企業你都不敢勞檢都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場"},{"start":8442.472,"end":8460.006,"text":"給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善"},{"start":8463.168,"end":8481.454,"text":"大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布"},{"start":8483.535,"end":8510.486,"text":"我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以"},{"start":8511.286,"end":8536.525,"text":"他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本"},{"start":8538.869,"end":8560.407,"text":"還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟各位說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延展中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個"},{"start":8561.519,"end":8564.864,"text":"你的國對國均可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的"},{"start":8576.599,"end":8594.734,"text":"就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都"},{"start":8597.695,"end":8623.261,"text":"現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標要設定有幾個國對國的職聘"},{"start":8624.761,"end":8649.557,"text":"委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明"},{"start":8653.179,"end":8668.466,"text":"我們其實現在 所以是為什麼我們現在提出了一個 你知道韓國全部都是國對國之平嗎 韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在 不是牛布化是蝸牛化 沒有 不 應該是停留在原地 1000個 1000個"},{"start":8672.849,"end":8690.704,"text":"可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多少"},{"start":8692.165,"end":8699.729,"text":"我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少 1000這樣子有用嗎"},{"start":8714.236,"end":8735.866,"text":"當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來"},{"start":8737.026,"end":8740.708,"text":"這是在這件事在殖民上面的重點但是國家退位30年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標那我現在講的就是說你知道"},{"start":8752.915,"end":8776.753,"text":"丹麥這個記者Peter Benson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎不只 他只指台灣的汽車零組件 電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險而制度面 我剛剛講了 制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定"},{"start":8779.996,"end":8790.158,"text":"還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國執聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多 那法制面你要怎麼做"},{"start":8792.35,"end":8815.944,"text":"其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績"},{"start":8816.784,"end":8839.668,"text":"沒有成績 至於我們三年關 兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在告訴你 這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括建鵬 還包括新光芳 新鮮還包括永德 美麗達 振興橡膠還包括健林 金碩 聖品 愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司"},{"start":8843.149,"end":8862.019,"text":"這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本 環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈"},{"start":8862.979,"end":8866.26,"text":"這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松"},{"start":8886.385,"end":8901.281,"text":"他不是 我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義"},{"start":8904.865,"end":8909.31,"text":"要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸循否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循"},{"start":8927.649,"end":8955.917,"text":"你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標蘇芬委員謝謝我覺得林蘇芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林蘇芬委員具體你的目標你的數字和你們要做的事情這個部分請洪部長這個要馬上做了啦"},{"start":8956.397,"end":8983.587,"text":"好謝謝我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬委員發言我們重新宣告待黃國昌委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席有請部長請洪部長"},{"start":8990.436,"end":9006.811,"text":"不知道時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概實施的人數是8500多人"},{"start":9009.773,"end":9026.023,"text":"那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字"},{"start":9031.823,"end":9060.846,"text":"平均每個人五千多平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存"},{"start":9062.086,"end":9086.574,"text":"但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛"},{"start":9087.694,"end":9114.24,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭"},{"start":9115.933,"end":9128.349,"text":"也得不到一個具體的答案那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算"},{"start":9130.47,"end":9145.323,"text":"我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天"},{"start":9146.264,"end":9168.891,"text":"接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給勞工的大概多少錢"},{"start":9171.334,"end":9189.779,"text":"我們目前其實在特別預算裡面是150億是 全部給勞工嗎當然全部都給勞工有一些當然有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工你給勞工的數額大概多少"},{"start":9191.452,"end":9211.107,"text":"給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億"},{"start":9218.466,"end":9229.973,"text":"對然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來 業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年36個月"},{"start":9246.065,"end":9271.021,"text":"16年底 對 就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多 兩年半所以總共是18個月24 30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事"},{"start":9272.556,"end":9288.745,"text":"給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界"},{"start":9290.984,"end":9305.163,"text":"有發出這樣子的聲音 認為說勞動部就跟他們對接 跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求 時間太晚了這個媒體有報導了我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到 也有看到"},{"start":9306.618,"end":9322.129,"text":"我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般署站的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少"},{"start":9323.442,"end":9341.785,"text":"跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況那多少數字"},{"start":9343.57,"end":9371.545,"text":"你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報 但是 對這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在 對我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計"},{"start":9372.945,"end":9399.033,"text":"難以估計跟委員報告我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積欠工資但是我們積欠工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減半休息對 但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定"},{"start":9399.933,"end":9422.672,"text":"因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題嘛你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了那第二個事情我關心的事情是說那沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到"},{"start":9423.272,"end":9448.866,"text":"他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼"},{"start":9449.949,"end":9466.563,"text":"我想 勞動團體這樣呼籲 我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能 我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對 我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久"},{"start":9467.691,"end":9483.052,"text":"我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞"},{"start":9484.045,"end":9511.603,"text":"我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標 他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看"},{"start":9512.603,"end":9535.976,"text":"美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分"},{"start":9536.596,"end":9555.334,"text":"那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來的這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道"},{"start":9557.168,"end":9577.456,"text":"這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是 他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者 社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定"},{"start":9578.735,"end":9601.604,"text":"跟委員說明 確實在美國他在做強迫攔戶戰扣令的角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對 我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在9月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場"},{"start":9603.124,"end":9621.085,"text":"那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查是那我們其實也還有在請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個所以到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定嗎"},{"start":9621.445,"end":9645.567,"text":"我想他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控"},{"start":9646.929,"end":9674.766,"text":"捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接管的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說 譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說"},{"start":9676.107,"end":9703.789,"text":"捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外訴使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK 那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特"},{"start":9704.58,"end":9726.455,"text":"所以這個是一個自由的調查我們並不是用一個調查的角度我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視"},{"start":9727.396,"end":9748.553,"text":"的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助"},{"start":9749.494,"end":9768.83,"text":"那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事"},{"start":9769.949,"end":9793.937,"text":"我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為"},{"start":9795.658,"end":9817.484,"text":"因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款"},{"start":9818.328,"end":9830.996,"text":"那我也沒有任何所謂的Debt Bondage的問題那我根本沒有Debt Bondage的問題那你美國就說我有Debt Bondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說"},{"start":9838.018,"end":9851.073,"text":"你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有釐清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了"},{"start":9852.778,"end":9877.792,"text":"雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準 各種指引因為Forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引 列什麼標準不管是10項 11項 12項 13項標準那些標準一定會比Forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體"},{"start":9878.82,"end":9882.948,"text":"那我們要面對問題具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管"},{"start":9883.834,"end":9910.657,"text":"你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果吉安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟"},{"start":9911.678,"end":9938.32,"text":"仲介 或者是這些相關的資訊其實還待他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果"},{"start":9939.341,"end":9967.7,"text":"但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的紀錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來 你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對"},{"start":9969.201,"end":9979.304,"text":"美方所指控的一托阿姑的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的"},{"start":9980.031,"end":9998.183,"text":"但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄這中間顯然是有落差這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反 但沒有發現"},{"start":9999.324,"end":10009.21,"text":"那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去瞭解瞭解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎"},{"start":10015.135,"end":10028.775,"text":"第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦那我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們"},{"start":10029.856,"end":10056.698,"text":"還是必須要來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是 部長不好意思我講得比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則"},{"start":10058.004,"end":10086.656,"text":"但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的紀律所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃偉說明"},{"start":10088.016,"end":10116.809,"text":"其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用IOO的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊"},{"start":10118.536,"end":10136.512,"text":"其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態"},{"start":10138.393,"end":10157.524,"text":"那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的"},{"start":10158.064,"end":10182.751,"text":"剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起對 但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯 對"},{"start":10185.032,"end":10210.826,"text":"所以所以他們去檢查以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個我理解所以大概還要多久"},{"start":10212.179,"end":10238.149,"text":"就可能要看一下 我們會盡快吧對啊 所謂盡快是多久 再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的 可以嘛那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易 也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後"},{"start":10239.169,"end":10259.014,"text":"一個月後然後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以好謝謝請勞動部這個一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於這個剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外"},{"start":10260.356,"end":10276.309,"text":"有關於那個你們目前為止的這些相關法規的就是剛剛林淑芬委員要求的也一併提供給本委員會辦公室本委員會的委員們的辦公室謝謝好那我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":10293.36,"end":10296.602,"text":"時間上如果沒有差太多的話"},{"start":10324.719,"end":10338.049,"text":"我還要先去竹海翔那裡我去竹海翔那裡很快然後就馬上再去台中"},{"start":10349.324,"end":10368.742,"text":"我沒有標大廈啦我覺得這個還好啦OK 好那委內里姆到時候你趁那邊來跟我講 因為我要請你幫我那個 遷徙派遷"},{"start":10372.435,"end":10380.097,"text":"那我做兩點三十六的,好不好?還是你要幫我訂...我現在目前訂兩點三十六,可以幫我看看兩點三十一的"},{"start":10401.143,"end":10410.281,"text":"等一下幫我請簽那個幫我跟那個白白說請他幫我跟朱凱祥聯絡我這裡結束我可能就直接過去看是不是可以"},{"start":10417.261,"end":10444.998,"text":"今天其實體育都很不錯今天他們也有講到一些我們那天是要跟Robber講所以那天那個朋友來講說他要跟兩名主辦公室的工作就很正常他只有一個很壞的就是他們怕是把電子的問題講下去但是去了解是電子的問題我相信說他們的質詢真的我們要推上我覺得理事會的辦法是很強"},{"start":10446.14,"end":10447.282,"text":"是真的專業在用心"},{"start":10695.408,"end":10696.169,"text":"來現在繼續開會請陳寅委員發言"},{"start":10725.658,"end":10728.323,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請勞動部長請勞動部長 洪部長陳委員好"},{"start":10738.909,"end":10750.678,"text":"部長好這一次對美的關稅談判主要分為兩個部分從貿易額來看分別佔32%的一般傳統產業跟68%的電子相關高科技產業前者是佔定適用20加N衝擊的影響的事業單位和勞工的人數將遠大於後者"},{"start":10767.07,"end":10794.19,"text":"首先就這個勞動就業市場的這個衝擊產業影響最大的大概是由哪些產業現在影響比較大的目前從數據上面看到的包括金屬製品包括機械設備那也包括汽車零組件然後也包括其他的運具裡面當然蠻多是自行車"},{"start":10795.083,"end":10820.59,"text":"那在這些產業當中到底有多少勞工那中小企業的占比還有就是說這些數據你們勞動部都有掌握嗎有所以大概多少勞工目前這幾個行業加起來的話應該占的比例蠻大的數據上我們現在設定"},{"start":10822.7,"end":10845.008,"text":"強化版的公安訂措施開放的九大行業裡面 總體的勞工占所有減班休息的勞工大概是占八成以上占八成所以多少7106占現在是8505那在九大就九大的這強化版公安訂措施行業大概是7000億"},{"start":10847.888,"end":10870.36,"text":"這是你們剛剛後面算的那些嗎就是剛剛就是你剛講是減班休息的好所以減班休息就是你們唯一的這個好沒關係這個後續我會帶到好那所以你們這個中小企業佔的比例"},{"start":10871.5,"end":10897.73,"text":"中小企業佔的比例是比較高的 目前看起來50人以下的加數是35750人 357加 好那勞動部你們所掌握的數據其實外界有提出質疑 認為說是嚴重低估那部長剛剛所說的衝擊的這個勞工人數大概有四萬兩千你們說八千多人"},{"start":10899.417,"end":10901.079,"text":"減班休息的數字目前是8505但是衝擊的這個"},{"start":10909.864,"end":10936.176,"text":"你們那個減班人數只有衝擊就是只有用減班人數去看而已不是陳委員講的應該是有一次在這個有一個4萬2的這個數字那這4萬2數其實它並不是勞動部估的它其實是應該是行政院當時應該是經濟部的相關的智庫的估計這樣子那行政院把它提供給我們做一個參考"},{"start":10937.093,"end":10958.649,"text":"好那是這樣子因為當然也有媒體或者其他人在評估就是說這樣的衝擊其實涵蓋勞工大至少有20萬人那實際上光是製造業的從業人數中因為有包括這個食品及飾品製造業那還有紡織業還有橡膠"},{"start":10960.791,"end":10984.388,"text":"橡膠製品製造業還有塑膠製品製造業大概有大概這個九大製造業大概就涵蓋了一百零五萬人了那所以我想要請教就是說你們勞動部是如何推估這個行政院公佈這個四萬二這個四萬兩千人這個數據他的是怎麼樣的這個確認他的正確性"},{"start":10987.631,"end":11002.316,"text":"跟那個聰遠說明你講的一百零五萬的這個數字是我們當時公佈九個行業適用強化版固定安定措施這九個行業總體的從業人數是一百零五萬可是並不是這一百零五萬都會受到衝擊並不是這樣的狀況"},{"start":11007.224,"end":11030.019,"text":"對啊所以你們怎麼去推估後來還有個4萬2的這個4萬2那應該是經濟部跟他經濟部的智庫去推估出來的數字那請問請我們來是經濟部跟他的依據什麼去推估出來他其實應該是用一定一些研究的方法去做做這個數字的方法對他不是去對那個勞保行業別人"},{"start":11032.082,"end":11055.179,"text":"所以研究他們用什麼樣研究的方法這可能要細看一下他們的那你會後再提供給我們看是怎麼樣因為那個4萬2主要是經濟部跟他的智庫去推估出來的那但是這個數字後來是行政院也給我們作為參考用這樣子"},{"start":11056.001,"end":11077.983,"text":"好那根據勞動部10月1號公佈最新一期的減班休息那你們的這個總人總人數和這個家數分別剛剛有提到就是8505人那有398家其中呢有310家的廠商表達是因為受到這個關稅的影響所以"},{"start":11080.994,"end":11104.334,"text":"這個部分總人數大概有達到7755人所以大概就是佔全部通報員工人數的九成那勞動部也有表示就是說本期增加了1171人那相較於上一期增加的2471人那這個成長的幅度就比較趨於平緩那"},{"start":11106.235,"end":11127.818,"text":"我想要請教就是說難道減班休息的人數是勞動部的這個唯一作為衡量關稅衝擊的指標嗎也不是還有沒有其他那你們其他是因為可能包括包括之前包括之前那也包括大解大量解雇"},{"start":11129.042,"end":11155.385,"text":"大姐 OK包括大姐 包括之前幾個東西我們都說但是的確在其他的數據比方說之前的通報裡面並沒有像減班休息的數字的成長的幅度這樣好 那有一種狀況就是假如是產業外移或者他官場歇業了我想這些失業的勞工他就不會出現在這個減班休息的統計上對 所以他就會變成是之前或大姐"},{"start":11156.429,"end":11177.694,"text":"那因為這個就是說後來這些人大概連班都沒有機會剪了啦那所以你們的失業統計就是他這個母數可能又要建立在這個千萬勞工的這個大母數的基礎上那即使就是說20萬人失業了那顯示數據喔的這個百分比也不會很高所以"},{"start":11178.754,"end":11201.71,"text":"我想就是說勞動部對於這個就業市場有一個你們有沒有這個即時正確的這個監視指標 有嗎跟文說明 其實因為之前的通報或者是大姐其實她不會出於母數所以其實還是會直接看到她的個數就是直接人數上面的數據"},{"start":11203.26,"end":11218.009,"text":"所以我想是這樣本席要在這裡建議勞動部就是說你們可以看一下目前受到衝擊的傳統產業就是說這個行業別勞保投保人數有沒有減少"},{"start":11218.709,"end":11247.526,"text":"那這個是每個月都會更新變化的數字所以每個月5號呢是雇主申報的這個期限那至少6號在部長的桌上就可以有這幾個行業別投保人數增減的數字所以我不曉得部長覺得說這樣的數據是不是重要是我再跟委員補充其實我們大家都會看幾個因為減慢休息然後解聘的數字還有包括失業給付的數字"},{"start":11249.691,"end":11266.402,"text":"因為這幾個數字大概是比較比較敏感的去了解現在就業市場的狀況因為解聘解聘未必等於這個產業外移所以這個部分我覺得還是有一些落差因為解聘就會後面就是失業"},{"start":11269.422,"end":11295.061,"text":"我講的是產業外移未必完全就是說解聘未必完全就等於產業外移這樣子的一個因素那再來就是說這個月的2號你們發布了這個因應關稅的這個支持方案跟四大措施包含了鬆綁適用對象還有擴增服務內涵以及這個跨部會資源整合以提高效益等等"},{"start":11295.922,"end":11305.861,"text":"那第一個措施主動訪視衝擊我想要請教部長就是說直到現在你們去訪談工會跟事業單位有得到什麼樣的結論嗎"},{"start":11309.023,"end":11330.032,"text":"這分成兩個部分因為我們去訪韓工會的確會有一些受衝擊的影響的產業他並沒有工會所以我們是請我們的五分署其實五個分署其實幾乎在這從四月到現在半年左右的時間他們幾乎這個訪視就是聯繫跟訪視加起來差不多兩萬多個加次"},{"start":11334.474,"end":11344.207,"text":"包括在尤其現在大家看起來比較嚴重的地方會是在中部那剛才講的幾個產業包括機械業包括"},{"start":11347.261,"end":11373.564,"text":"可能水五金機械業水五金幾個金屬製品跟其他運輸都是在中部其實是比較多的因為是這樣子就是說經營的風險是雇主那他不是勞工那但是我想你們做這些訪視是不是在你們的這個訪談記錄這些雇主的意見"},{"start":11374.945,"end":11398.376,"text":"我們能不能會後給我們辦公室做參考可以好謝謝那再來第二個措施就是強化雇用安定還有補貼勞工被減薪或降低工時那你們可以補助這個減少的薪資是從五成提高到七成我想要請教就是說你們如何可以周知這些事業單位或者僱主"},{"start":11400.078,"end":11417.816,"text":"因為他們如果通報的話都會有聯繫的方式所以在聯繫方式上我們都會主動跟這些僱主來聯繫說其實你可以來申請包括幫勞工來申請這個強化版的管理措施那有些勞工其實他有留下聯絡方式我們也會主動跟他聯絡其實你可以申請這個薪資差額補貼我們都會主動聯絡再來就是說"},{"start":11422.566,"end":11442.382,"text":"受到衝擊在就業的部分你們要對接失業勞工跟缺工的事業單位那也要給他們提供客製化的就業媒合服務我想這個部分我們是給予很高的肯定但是請問你們要如何具體的執行然後預估的這個KPI是多少"},{"start":11444.062,"end":11471.314,"text":"因為這個跟文說明因為你剛才講的這個是我們在勞工就業通的計畫那勞工就業通的計畫它主要是設計給因為關稅等等國際情勢的因素而比方說被解雇而失業的勞工那所以整體的KPI並不是我們自己定因為我也不希望這個數字定很高因為如果定很高代表我們失業的人很多但所以如果你們的具體執行會"},{"start":11473.294,"end":11502.399,"text":"我想我們會 我自己覺得我們會希望盡量就是我們遇到是因為關稅的因素被解雇然後產生失業狀況我們會盡量的提高對他們的這個轉職的服務所以在這個轉職服務裡面我們也看到的確蠻多他傳統產業其實中高齡的勞工比較多所以因為中高齡的勞工多所以他的職務在設計或者是其實我們有一些相關的訓練我們從這部分為中高齡的勞工多做設計我們其實從這個角度來去協助他們"},{"start":11502.919,"end":11515.426,"text":"因為今天這樣回答也是很抽象因為我不知道你們要設計什麼我剛才說包括我們把這個服務從植物在設計其實也從它原本是其他的計畫我們把它給整合進來"},{"start":11517.108,"end":11536.733,"text":"好 沒關係因為今天時間也差不多了我想這個會後也都希望你們可以做比較詳細的補充那最後一個就是說最後一個措施是這個青年接軌職場然後初次尋找青年然後依規定報名參加計畫完成各項求職準備"},{"start":11538.354,"end":11552.228,"text":"然後沒有未能找到工作者就發給尋職津貼這個部分聽起來好像是一個已經是既有的計劃那而且再來就是說參加計劃期間找到工作且穩定就業者就發給就業獎金"},{"start":11553.889,"end":11573.929,"text":"最高合計發給發到4.8萬元這是一個既有的計畫他不是既有計畫但過去其實有真的今年尋職的部分但因為這次關稅因為我們考量到其實會有一些企業他當他遇到關稅衝擊的時候他可能會縮減給年輕人一開始的這個就業的機會"},{"start":11575.791,"end":11601.495,"text":"所以當時我們經過一些學者的討論認為我們其實應該要對於年輕人的尋子有個強化版的做法所以剛剛因為這個我是看不出來有什麼差別第一個我們提高我們提高提高了這個津貼的津貼的額度就是3萬多到4萬多對然後我們也把適用的範圍放寬然後也包括過去其實是要尋子90天那我們現在把它縮減到60天就可以"},{"start":11602.615,"end":11627.367,"text":"就是說60天的計劃 縮到60天60天沒有工作沒有工作原本是要90天那我們現在把它縮短到60天就可以那但是縮短60天符合那這樣子的就是說期間大概總共要多久計劃是三個月就是他求職找到是三個月我們會給他相關的津貼"},{"start":11628.2,"end":11643.82,"text":"好那你們怎麼樣去定義說出自尋職這個定義他就是第一次找工作的狀況我們在我們的記錄上面是看得到你們記錄上在投保記錄上面是看得到的好那我想這個"},{"start":11647.88,"end":11665.169,"text":"這個部分我們希望就是說可以有一些更令人有感的一些措施在這邊我想今天提醒了提醒了很多點那因為畢竟說我們關稅現在還在談有些衝擊浪潮要過一段時間"},{"start":11666.81,"end":11684.732,"text":"才會慢慢的湧現所以在這裡要特別提醒你們就是說要麻煩你們要隨時注意這個現有的這個方案措施的成效那特別是很多他都是有時效性的那如果整個行政作業太慢的話有再多的美意到最後也都會變質"},{"start":11687.114,"end":11702.483,"text":"所以在這邊因為下個月部長你任期就滿一年了那我們很期待說這個一年過去了部長可以有很好的成績單交出來這樣子謝謝謝謝陳瑩委員發言接下來請葉元梓委員發言請勞動部長"},{"start":11715.532,"end":11716.677,"text":"請洪部長"},{"start":11721.372,"end":11749.048,"text":"業務員好部長好先問一下無薪假的問題因為8月又攀升到8500人比7月又多1000多人最近是抖升應該是10月1號的公佈10月1號我想請教一下因為我看到你有提到你是最近一直在仿視產業那你都仿視什麼產業其實傳統產業比較多傳統產業那現在你預估11月的無薪假人數會一直繼續往上衝嗎"},{"start":11751.069,"end":11764.117,"text":"應該不是預估啦因為你有訪視嘛所以有了解嘛我們會要我覺得要為人數還增加當然要為人數增加做準備大概你覺得你預估大概多少不是估一個就狀況是會更嚴峻還是會趨緩"},{"start":11766.587,"end":11782.545,"text":"我們就是要我認為我們要對於人數還會再增加去做相關的政策上面因為這個東西跟你邊預算或政府的因應作為都有關所以回答也不能那麼的抽象我相信你應該要給一個具體的答案你覺得會比較嚴峻還是會趨緩"},{"start":11784.787,"end":11797.775,"text":"我們現在看到的數據因為9月16號的時候那一次公佈增加是240010月1號的時候公佈是增加1100就增加的幅度來說是有降低"},{"start":11798.892,"end":11816.3,"text":"對 我現在問未來啦因為你有房市嘛如果你都丟的不管我不會問你嘛你有房市有些企業跟你回應說我們現在可能這個月還可以撐下個月撐不住或如何如何你會有一個判斷嘛這就是你房市的目的嘛我們認為要就是是有可能會再增加的就是會更嚴峻啦"},{"start":11817.04,"end":11841.016,"text":"那當然你昨天我們也在審你們的像今天在審你們所提出來的預算就是有因應國際局勢的韌性你們這邊是編的250億其中有100億是給勞保啦另外150億是辦理勞工的安定就業各項措施然後我看你的計畫裡面提的10項那其中有一項是辦理青年就業計畫那這個部分預計投入多少錢詳細的數字"},{"start":11846.658,"end":11866.75,"text":"一直投多少錢總共15億15億那其實你這個資源青年計劃我之前就有看過了在你提這個計劃預算之前就有看過那時候左下角是講說本項措施符合就業安定基金促進國民就業用途看起來這個錢原本是要用救安基金去付"},{"start":11868.28,"end":11894.941,"text":"同樣一個計畫忽然間又送特別預算過來特別預算一般是說要因應緊急狀況沒有錢的時候送已經確定要用救安基金來付為什麼又送特別預算過來目的是什麼跟文說明其實我們在關稅的期間其實是有把包括適用對象包括補貼的金額其實都有在拉高但是因為你這個原本的資源青年就業計畫你是有名額限制嗎"},{"start":11895.982,"end":11913.456,"text":"你是符合條件就可以啊對啊 那既然是符合條件就可以那就沒有金額的問題啊那為什麼要另外再編特別預算來我說補貼的金額我們把它拉高本來金額你這邊救援基金就是四萬八你現在特別預算也是四萬八金額一樣啊"},{"start":11915.898,"end":11940.157,"text":"跟文說因為還是說你現在要用特別預算來取代救安基金不是不是不是我們原定這部分就是要用特別預算來支用可是因為自己看救安基金不是不是因為特別預算還沒過還沒過所以現在就是先移緩季節因為現在就我了解所以你的意思是說在沒有這沒有特別預算的話呢你用救安基金來支付那現在有特別預算救安基金就不用付了嘛對吧"},{"start":11940.777,"end":11956.45,"text":"意思是這樣嗎應該是說其實因為這是因為特別預算現在還在審查可是現在已經會有青年對於這個計畫對於資源有需求所以就是說所以我們先用這個先用基金對 那之後一環基金然後之後就用特別預算對"},{"start":11958.231,"end":11974.941,"text":"接下來我就要想要順便問一下因為你這個計畫我看到他是用15到29歲未就業都可以15歲到18歲理論上他應該在讀書但是可能有一些未就業所以施用這個計畫請問一下大概15到18歲未就業有請領這個計畫的現在是多少人"},{"start":11980.117,"end":11997.957,"text":"15到18你特別問15到你去統計一下好不好如果15我特別問15段我可能要算一下你統計一下好不好因為我們我覺得你們統計完之後應該要跟教育部來討論一下就是說為什麼有這些學生他是沒有去讀書然後是去就業的有什麼狀況可能要跟社政機關一起來研究一下"},{"start":11998.257,"end":12026.63,"text":"因為理論上我們應該還是鼓勵這個年齡的學生去讀書啦當然對所以這個不是說你就給他錢就不管他當然照顧他我覺得政府也應該做但是也應該要了解正常來說應該讀書為什麼你會來就業這個部分這其實在我們其實相關的統計就是有他就是為就學為就業的一般我們簡稱為為的青年所以還是會有一些他在這個階段他沒有覺得我覺得還是要跟教育部跟"},{"start":12027.51,"end":12051.826,"text":"跟那個衛福部大家去討論一下好 再來我就因為講到救安基金看起來救安基金就是你的小金庫啦就是沒錢的時候拿出來用一下有錢就可以收回來然後之前大家對於救安基金有很多批評因為被拿去開演唱會啊拿去裝潢啊拿去拍影片啊然後這一些的那既然這個救安基金現在已經收這麼多多到感覺變成可以這樣子用"},{"start":12052.546,"end":12079.314,"text":"那我覺得你何不就是在繳交的部分我覺得你可以放寬一點讓有一些其實有困難的人可以不用繳交那目前就業安定費是根據就業服務法第55條有三個狀況是可以免繳一個譬如說他是中低收入戶或者是他是身心障礙者但是他有領取生活補助或者是醫療人福利法領取中低收入生活津貼這三種人他是不用繳交就業安定費"},{"start":12080.094,"end":12101.972,"text":"可是其實他都有一個財務的限制就他必須要符合可能收入比較低這一塊但是我們都知道像我們在地方也很多人跟我們反映他其實生活也不見得很好但是他就是沒有達到中低收入戶的標準那這些人假設他們家裡面有中高中重度的失能者要照顧的話他請一個外籍看護要不要繳救援安定費 要"},{"start":12103.038,"end":12130.977,"text":"其實我覺得對他來說是蠻大的一筆負擔那如果救安基金都已經這麼多了政府都可以拿去開演唱會了都可以拿去拍影片了那為什麼不能讓這一些真的家裡面比較有困難的讓他勉強的我覺得部長您研究一下好不好跟我說明第一個我們在今年1月的時候其實我們就已經提出強化管理救安基金的方案所以不會再有剛之前看到的這些有爭議的使用狀況"},{"start":12132.038,"end":12158.395,"text":"那是代表说之前就是钱太多才会这样嘛那你现在的钱还是一样多啊更何况刚刚也讲了嘛你用特别预算也来补了救安基金本来要支出的部分嘛所以救安基金的钱是错错有余我们现在是用救安基金去补其实应该特别要用规划用特别预算的部分钱就是有空出来本来要拿去付这个初次循职津贴但现在有特别预算了所以我觉得你"},{"start":12159.475,"end":12187.871,"text":"部長你去研究一下啦就是說救安基金你那麼多非必要的支出你都在花了過去是這樣今年錢一樣多未來這些支出我們都會我們就做出救安基金的改革所以沒有 你改革但是未來會這樣過去會這樣代表說沒有那麼多的需求嘛他才會把這些錢拿來這樣用嘛那為什麼忽然間需求會增加是我們勞工條件越來越差嗎還是你看壞我們經濟否則你為什麼會認為說未來救安基金的需求會越來越大"},{"start":12189.136,"end":12213.095,"text":"如果你經濟穩定的話政府就是告訴我們經濟穩定啊理論上來講救安基金是安定就業那他基本上他最起碼維持跟過去一樣的水平啊為什麼你會認為說救安基金未來的支出會越來越多你如果把那些開演唱會啊拍影片這些錢把它去掉之後支付的還會更多我相信那你很看壞我們的經濟耶所以我現在沒有叫你立刻給答案但我覺得研議一下因為"},{"start":12213.815,"end":12232.481,"text":"如果說救安基金的錢確實水位很高然後可以做像過去可以用那些用途的話為什麼針對這一些比較有困難的家庭他不符合免繳的用途我們不能夠放寬呢我相信這個錢也沒有很多所以我希望說不然你去試算一下你去試算一下如果說假設假設我講完假設"},{"start":12235.142,"end":12258.019,"text":"針對就是他不符合中低收入戶但是家裡有重度失能以上的這些家庭他也許有困難讓他勉強一個月兩千塊的就業安定費到底對於救安基金的影響有多大我覺得至少給一個評估出來嘛給評估然後再去看說欸救安基金這個如果扣掉一些非必要支出欸可以可以這個過去那我覺得大家可以往這個方向去做啊"},{"start":12259.065,"end":12278.759,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個因為過去的確我們在免繳救安基金部分比較是針對收入以收入作為篩選條件那我們有看到一些委員其實對於這個救安基金免繳或少繳其實有提出希望做更多其他類型的期待"},{"start":12279.847,"end":12308.94,"text":"那我想我們可以來做一些評估你做一個研討我們也可以來做一些評估就是你把那個金額算出來然後當面我們會來整體估計一下包括救援基金的財務狀況這樣子那大概什麼時候會有這個研究出來我想我們可能一個月好不好給我們兩個月好不好部長你這麼勇於認識的人我們認識這麼久了對不對 一個月我兩個月了你看你這樣子就訓掉了一個月"},{"start":12310.697,"end":12331.098,"text":"我們盡快好不好對那最慢兩個月好謝謝好謝謝葉元智委員發言接下來請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席我們請部長有請洪森漢部長"},{"start":12339.405,"end":12357.861,"text":"今天大家關心就是因應關稅的這個議題那造成這個這幾個月減班休息的人數一直在增加那我想請教就是說部長你應該也有到地方去訪視或者是去參訪那也看到現在很多傳產業者"},{"start":12359.603,"end":12378.623,"text":"確實在這幾個月遇到了一些困難那尤其是台中彰化南投這部分在這個九月份的時候這是看一個統計啦就是說在九月份台中彰化南投這個超過4000名的勞工被迫放無薪假"},{"start":12379.784,"end":12394.494,"text":"我們也看到就是說你們在勞動部的統計就是9月份減班休息的人數從原本的7300多一直到10月份是已經突破到8500"},{"start":12396.115,"end":12417.075,"text":"那中張頭的這個部分就已經超過4000人那因為中張頭這個產業會比較特殊有的是工具機有的是金屬製造業腳踏車零件或水五金這個真的算是傳產非常多的一個地方那確實有碰到這樣的一個特殊的地區"},{"start":12419.578,"end":12433.492,"text":"這個特定的地區然後有這樣子特別嚴重的一個狀況那我不知道說勞動部針對這個特定的地區有比較嚴重的這個狀況是不是有不一樣的一個做法或者是全國是一致的"},{"start":12436.003,"end":12452.251,"text":"確實現在因為中央這邊我們是訂定一個全國性的政策但是我們的確有看到的確中部目前假班休息的數字是比較多的所以這也是為什麼其實上週那我自己也親自到"},{"start":12453.351,"end":12471.089,"text":"中部來跟我們很多的傳產的業者包括這些工協會一起來座談我們也是希望對於尤其是中部的這些業者他們遇到的問題在我們所能夠執掌的跟勞工相關的部分來多給一些協助"},{"start":12472.806,"end":12493.195,"text":"那我們希望就是說針對中部地區比較嚴重的這個狀況我覺得也許你們的這個力道應該可以再加強一點因為就是一個變成一個聚落的特殊的這樣一個狀況因為我在這幾天也碰到就是因為減班休息那這個中高齡的"},{"start":12494.195,"end":12512.731,"text":"女性这个是我碰到连续碰到两位就刚好那一天早上连续碰到两位都差不多60出差不多60几岁的妈妈那她会说他们公司就因为这个关税的问题所以他们目前是在放无薪假"},{"start":12513.391,"end":12539.95,"text":"那像這樣子的話當然就是說勞動部針對這個減班休息的這些勞工有一些因應的措施或者是這個訓練或者參加訓練可能有一些這個補助那針對這個中高齡的部分其實他們覺得說勞動部這樣的一個政策對他們來講沒有很大的幫助因為他們急需要的可能就是需要"},{"start":12541.031,"end":12557.251,"text":"這個收入所以他們從原本的這個工廠那因為減班休息那後來他們又去找了可能就是這個臨時工可能就找了臨時的這樣的一個工作所以我也希望就是說針對"},{"start":12558.894,"end":12575.695,"text":"不一定就是說你們現在提出來的政策當然是很好就是說薪資差額的補貼或者是再充電的這個計畫我覺得這個是很好可是可能針對中高齡的這個部分也許他覺得說這個對他來講沒有多大的一個幫助"},{"start":12576.135,"end":12591.296,"text":"所以針對中高齡的這樣的一個這個失業的勞工因為減班休息失業的勞工後面他可能還需要再找一些比較臨時的一個工作那針對這部分有沒有比較及時的一個協助"},{"start":12591.792,"end":12619.172,"text":"跟花園說明第一個如果是老公他如果其實在減班休息時間他其實假設他是出現薪資上的落差因為減班嘛薪資落差的話那這部分其實他不一定要參訓參加訓練那他是可以直接用強化版的安定措施那我們來補他這個差額的七成那這個是誰要申請是企業要幫他申請或他自己他自己也可以申請他自己申請就可以對好"},{"start":12620.302,"end":12636.132,"text":"他自己又可以申請 企業幫他申請也很好也可以 那勞工也可以自己申請那我覺得像這個的話你們可能他如果今天是可能找了一個是一個臨時的一個工作找一個是臨時的工作那這個他也可以自己申請嗎"},{"start":12638.237,"end":12652.344,"text":"我們其實是針對他原本的工業原本比方說他如果薪水42,000現在因為減班假設是3萬 假設3萬但是因為減班休息還是要有最基本的最低工資所以比方說42,000到"},{"start":12654.345,"end":12670.866,"text":"3萬那這1萬2的差額我們會補貼7成1萬2的7成所以他只要來申請我們就會核給他我們就會他自己只要上網申請或者是直接到你們的這個分數就業中心或分數來申請就業中心都可以"},{"start":12671.787,"end":12692.595,"text":"到分署去申請也都可以對沒錯那我希望就是說把這個訊息應該也要把它讓更多的勞工知道因為他們有的人會覺得說那我是不是要透過企業幫他申請那有的企業他不一定要聘這樣的一個勞工是所以現在我們是直接是勞工可以申請所以這也是為什麼我們確實在幾個工會的方式"},{"start":12694.388,"end":12720.502,"text":"都跟我們強調希望我們擴大宣傳因為像剛剛講我們其實已經把申請的程序弄到最簡便那可是的確還是有一些勞工朋友不一定都知道那這個在宣傳上面我們會再更努力是好那其實我剛剛講的這個中部地區可能算是一個重災區那另外除了就是說因為關稅的問題其實國際的情勢也會影響到這些這個傳產"},{"start":12723.523,"end":12740.989,"text":"這些公司因為我就碰到一位企業他們原本是做工具機的因為整個關稅的議題他原本可能就賣到香港賣到新加坡這個工具機又被轉賣到伊朗"},{"start":12742.089,"end":12755.255,"text":"那就被美國這邊制裁因為列入黑名單那整個公司所有的帳戶全部被凍結那造成說他的勞工也因為這樣子因為公司被凍結所有的帳戶被凍結之後也沒辦法接單"},{"start":12760.057,"end":12783.275,"text":"那造成說這些勞工就因為這樣子也失業所以類似這樣的一個狀況不論是因為關稅的問題或者是因為國際情勢造成的勞工的失業我覺得說這個可能也是我們勞動部需要去關心的部分因為不只是因為關稅的問題國際情勢也會影響到我們這些企業"},{"start":12787.758,"end":12804.927,"text":"所以我在這邊也要再提醒就是說勞動部針對這部分一方面我們要去做宣傳讓更多的勞工知道要不然他會覺得這個公司因為這個接不到單尤其是原本他們4月份因為關稅的問題"},{"start":12806.348,"end":12831.188,"text":"那可能在期待可能第三季或第四季是不是可以接單可不可以接到這個國外的訂單可是我們第三季現在第三季整個財報出來之後發現可能訂單也沒有想像中的多或者是也沒有訂單的這樣的一個狀況那就像剛剛部長講的也許在你們在下個月又在統計的時候"},{"start":12832.829,"end":12853.914,"text":"減班休息的這個受到影響這些勞工的數字也許會比現在8500名還要再多人那所以我希望就是說勞動部針對這一部分不論是因為關稅的議題或者是因為受到國際情勢的這個影響我覺得應該也要還要再有一個比較更積極的一個方式"},{"start":12854.734,"end":12873.992,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們現在比方說剛剛講的薪資差補貼我們並沒有限制他只受到關稅影響其實我們把範圍甚至拉到現在有很多廠商遇到匯率的問題或者是所以我們整體是把它包在一個因應國際情勢的不確定性所造成的影響我們都會把它放到現在在我們那個"},{"start":12875.553,"end":12891.767,"text":"這個薪資差額補貼的部分所以並不是只去只鎖定或者是只限只有因為關稅的影響所以你原本說擴大到九大製造業那現在譬如說九大製造業以外的這些勞工如果受到影響的話也是可以嗎"},{"start":12893.268,"end":12910.698,"text":"目前我們其實薪資差的補貼是目前公告是九大行業那現在都是製造業那但是行業別要不要更多的放寬我們其實也可以滾動的來檢討可是的確現在因為這個裡面我們會因為是用特別預算那也是"},{"start":12912.479,"end":12928.499,"text":"這個強化版的部分我們是特別針對這個國際的情勢所以如果有一些比方說有些行業他其實跟關稅的影響沒有那麼沒有大的相關他可能他只是自己內部經營的問題那這就不在我們薪資差補貼的範圍裡面"},{"start":12930.4,"end":12948.838,"text":"那我希望就是說因為確實現在第三劑第四劑也許會更嚴重就是說減半休息的這部分也許會更嚴重那仲裁區的話就是中部地區傳產的這些區域可能會比較嚴重那我也希望就是說部長既然你都有下鄉區"},{"start":12949.999,"end":12962.289,"text":"去了解的話也許就是說滾動式的檢討可以讓更多的勞工能夠受益這個應該也是我們勞動部最原本的一個美意是 當然 好 謝謝謝謝黃秀芳委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":12979.229,"end":12980.892,"text":"謝謝主席 那我想請洪部長 謝謝 請洪聖漢部長"},{"start":12989.766,"end":13004.056,"text":"部長我先用講的就好但您一定很熟悉因為我們勞動力發展署的訓練發展組他有統計發現呢您做的這個充電再出發計畫只有86家企業515人僅佔受影響人數的6.05%"},{"start":13010.1,"end":13037.623,"text":"企業辦訓更是僅有三家其實這個成效是不好的那因為成效不佳其實你是有放寬規定比如說不用限制最低的開班人數啊你回溯到8月1號還有上課時間也比較有彈性人數放寬但是合撥的金額如果是從7月開始申請應該還沒有執行數我們還看不到你放寬之後的執行數不知道你這邊有沒有"},{"start":13038.323,"end":13059.968,"text":"已經有的相關數據可以提供還是你要在一個月後才可以提供現在還沒有數據還沒出來所以你們檢討了過去成效不上的原因大概是哪幾個面向跟穩說明其實過去在減班休息的狀況其實主要在致應的就是我們這個充電債出發的計畫"},{"start":13061.528,"end":13082.166,"text":"但是因為這確實他會需要企業來辦訓那很多企業會說他其實現在是他很辛苦的時間那他還要特別來辦訓他可能不一定有能力或他不一定有這個意願來辦訓所以就會讓這個成效受影響這也是為什麼我們其實現在把對於減班休息勞工的經濟支持我們認為更應該更著重在"},{"start":13083.147,"end":13098.173,"text":"另外一個強化版的規模安定措施上面那個是直接的可以給予薪資的差額補貼就是對於勞工的經濟支持我們是更大程度的是放在直接的薪資差額補貼所以你的意思是說這個也許你會考慮"},{"start":13100.086,"end":13123.362,"text":"放寬以後加持還是不好你就是移轉這可能不能移轉不是移轉但是你們會加強另外的直接補貼啦我們其實是直接的擦補貼所以我們從五成拉到七成行業別也放寬其實我們現在是就是說我如果更直接講就是以強化版公安訂措施為主那這個充電站出發對於經濟支持的效果為輔"},{"start":13125.284,"end":13139.306,"text":"好那下一個我想問這個減班休息就勢必要調整投保的薪資所以投保薪資一定會有所調降這是非常多這個人士就做HR的人他們反映的因為"},{"start":13140.427,"end":13163.339,"text":"其中包括申請勞保生育 老年給付 商帳給付等等都是去根據你領錢數個月的平均投保薪資來看但是減班休息是變相的影響到勞工的權益這個不在話下可是投保的薪資變相也懲罰到他們應有的這些給付的權益"},{"start":13164.119,"end":13186.075,"text":"那你有沒有辦法用最快的速度來試算因為現在剛很多委員都問了嘛大概是8500人目前是8500人所以這個試算起來應該不會很困難但對他們而言這些生育啊傷臟啊老年的給付也是很重要是不是也應該用特別預算來補足這部分金額"},{"start":13188.293,"end":13203,"text":"跟委員報告就是勞保的投保薪資他的內涵是勞基法的工資所以依照規定當然雇主要何時申報但是對於考量這一段期間的特殊的一個狀況勞資送讓他可以預訂"},{"start":13204.26,"end":13233.383,"text":"就是原来的投保薪资申报不要调整老保局不会去处罚他但是你有去统计吗你有去统计有多少人他的薪资投保薪资可能会跳降了受影响了因为这个必须你刚刚讲得很清楚啊必须双方是讲好的是是是牢固双方议定对啊红部长刚也说了老板这边资方这边也是觉得辛苦嘛所以他不一定会两边都讲好按照原本的投保薪资啊"},{"start":13234.25,"end":13263.142,"text":"其實就我們目前看到其實蠻多其實他基本上並沒有調降投保薪資因為這是一個比較短期的狀況那投保薪資大概是三個月其實做一次更新那所以其實目前看到是他其實並沒有很多要去反而在這段時間裡面去調降那之後你會去追嗎我們不會去我們不會特別去追這件事情然後但是我們基本上我會希望就是雙方其實就議定不調降投保薪資就好了"},{"start":13264.778,"end":13290.854,"text":"那你們應該會去統計一下比例吧我們可以統計一下比例但是我說在做法上在做法上面其實就是雙方一定那我們不會特別要去在這個特別的時間還去做查然後說我們其實不會但你之後會不會有一個數據可以給我們有哪些人有受到影響我們可以去就是去比對那個減班休息的人數看看能不能比對的出來不然勞保局在"},{"start":13291.514,"end":13305.305,"text":"薪資調整這部分其實他是沒有原因的他沒有寫說他是因為減班休息或者是因為沒有加班等等的因素我知道你很難把它比對他下降的原因是不是因為減班休息這個我之後會再發文詢問你們"},{"start":13307.867,"end":13329.6,"text":"是 再跟委員報告我們脫髮新社調降或者是調整其實一年兩次就是2月跟8月我們不是每個月都讓雇主來調整好 但剛剛有很多委員也是擔心這個會延長到很久嗎可能到第三季第四季甚至明年所以你本來就要有這個心理準備會遇到這件事情好嗎"},{"start":13331.461,"end":13355.636,"text":"再來就是洪部長也非常關心的彈性育嬰留庭照顧方案這個我跟你都是很贊同的啦可是呢現在因為勞健保的問題你必須要停保你必須要加保反反覆覆所以企業的人事行政申請或是公務員這都是一個挑戰那我知道你會出懶人包請問你這個懶人包的進度如何"},{"start":13356.316,"end":13375.689,"text":"我跟陳委員說明其實這個方案我們在9月提出其實這一段時間我們一直在跟包括我們的勞保局跟調評師包括保險司我們在盡力的把所有申請的程序給簡化甚至有些部分我們可以用自動的方式來處理那相關的書表能夠盡量簡化到最簡就最簡"},{"start":13376.289,"end":13405.408,"text":"那就是希望让比方说企业的HR他如果要来申请的时候其实可以在最简单的方式里面甚至我们会用可以手机线上就能够申请但是你的意思是说如果他请一天就是还是要一次吗我们可以让他累也就是你不用每一天就要来申请一次你甚至可以累计假设比方说因为我们现在是开放30天让大家一日来请我们其实是可以让大家"},{"start":13407.11,"end":13426.949,"text":"30天你請完30天再來跟我們申請一次都可以你不用每一次就要來就不用重複一樣的動作但現在有個比較特別的行業是女醫師跟我申請的女醫師這個您知道嗎因為對於女醫師來說她留庭就必須要辦理庭業的登記然後再去復職"},{"start":13427.91,"end":13443.517,"text":"因為他是特殊的有醫師執照的所以他在辦理流停的時候還要再跑醫師公會還要再跑地方衛生局那他如果做這種彈性孕育流停的話他必須比一般的勞工還要再多跑兩個地方"},{"start":13445.734,"end":13469.33,"text":"因為職業登記應該是在衛福部嘛那我們來跟衛福部討論一下可是可是基本上我們會在我們目前可以就是我們勞動部全責的範圍內盡量把所有流程都最簡單我們最近也在跟人資在做相關的討論就是讓因為讓人資能夠用的盡量上手我覺得是我們在操作面上面我們讓大家用的"},{"start":13469.89,"end":13497.421,"text":"最簡單的方式那針對這個比較高規管的行業請問你們可以跟衛福部討論嗎我們可以來跟衛福部討論但是就看有沒有哪些部分可以再互相協調一下那就會後會再詢問您那關於這個這是很多很多網友他們的心得如果說你們同仁有空的話也可以到這些群組或者是社團去看"},{"start":13498.021,"end":13515.771,"text":"大家其實對於您的這個育嬰留職停薪然後在規範子女三年前的請然後六個月可以領八成薪金不會都是正面看待非常正面看待可是你看一下所有實際上大家遇到問題是什麼遇到問題是三歲以前"},{"start":13516.812,"end":13540.435,"text":"大部分的人可能是在比較封閉或是在家或者是長輩照顧等等的他沒有那麼容易生病但是3歲反而是3歲到小學之間他只要班上有人腸病毒等等就一次會停課到5天反而大家會覺得這個利益非常的良好但如果你可以把這個歲數稍微往長一點"},{"start":13541.796,"end":13553.064,"text":"應用起來會更好那我也想問勞動部有沒有去調查生育後的雙親尤其是女性有多少比例是申請完育嬰留職停薪比例"},{"start":13554.587,"end":13576.127,"text":"我們應該是有數據但是現在可能數據沒有在手邊但是數據是不是你覺得不夠好所以你才會想要做彈性或者是說其實我們看到的情況是的確不一定很多的女性的勞動其實暈流田不是只有女性可以申請男性也可以申請"},{"start":13577.27,"end":13599.289,"text":"那其實蠻多都跟我們反映希望能夠更彈性他不一定一定要請這麼長那剛剛委員其實提到這個三歲以上的部分因為我們其實在這一次的計劃的推出其實是在目前是因為是不用修法不用修法是三歲以下因為育嬰留庭基本上是在三歲以下才可以請"},{"start":13600.68,"end":13622.852,"text":"那我們是認為先讓我們先三歲以下先往前走那我覺得是狀況也包括很多的企業因為台灣中好企業真的蠻多的那調適到一個程度我們也不是不能考慮是不是要透過修法的方式那再把稅數再提高這個部分我們也持開放的態度因為我們是希望三歲以下能夠先行這樣子"},{"start":13623.633,"end":13650.111,"text":"因為我自己有提出我自己的版本我是希望這個可以拉到8歲但假使您願意的話當然只要是往後拉所有的家長都是正面的絕對大家是一定會全力支持您其實在現在因為真的因為台灣正好小微企業比較多所以我們現在也在規劃一些讓企業可以協助他調適的做法因為他的確需要調適尤其是一些排班性的企業"},{"start":13650.871,"end":13679.333,"text":"那这是为什么我们要尽量简化他们的程序也包括他可能会在排班上可能他也需要一些新的排班的人资的制度来去做相关的因应可是有的时候社会企业他不一定都有很完整的HR的制度所以其实对于这些企业我们要给他协助是真的后面还有很多的工作要放在这个地方那我们觉得说如果其实企业调试到一个程度后面假如要用修法的方式把税数给拉高当然我们觉得这部分是可以讨论的"},{"start":13680.313,"end":13706.941,"text":"其實對企業而言他反而不會這麼短在這麼密集的時間接到同就是一樣有生育的這個族群可能密集的請假你把他拉長反而大家會比較分散一點點也有這樣子的看法好這邊大家不分朝野對於沒宣費現在是蠻敏感的所以這個昨天在九樓是非常多委員質詢那我先跟部長報告2023年普發現金6000元這個東西你也有參與"},{"start":13710.154,"end":13727.084,"text":"政府是編列了1150的預算沒宣費最後只用了819但是達到了非常好的成效不管是偏鄉的啊境外返國的同胞啊各個族群都在多元的領取管道中有序的完成領取"},{"start":13728.044,"end":13757.283,"text":"那这次普发现金一万这个特别预算没宣费是高达1350元大家已经觉得很离谱了但是我们来跟你刚你有讲到这九大行业受冲击的老公跟你比一下普发现金要执行的经费规模是你的337倍之多结果你的没宣费是普发现金的1.4倍请问你这个是贵在什么道理你可以跟我们讲一下吗"},{"start":13757.763,"end":13772.298,"text":"跟陳委員報告其實我們在下鄉包括跟很多勞工跟工會在座談的時候勞工工會都請我們一定要加強宣傳而且需要我們用更希望用更多資源包括今天我們的"},{"start":13773.759,"end":13793.904,"text":"这个寻答朝野委员也都跟我们说很多劳工还不知道一定要加强而且希望要不同方式来宣传因为很多劳工不一定他都会看新闻就是新闻上不一定都能够透过新闻上来得到这些讯息他们都跟我说希望我们宣传的方法要更多元因为劳工可能更多元不一定要更贵啊"},{"start":13795.059,"end":13823.492,"text":"是吧所以我們基本上我們是在希望說讓我們這個政策的成效因為就像剛剛前面幾位委員不管是執行黨的委員或在黨委員都希望我們加強宣傳加強宣傳不代表需要1900萬我不知道我方不方便跟你要你這1900萬的項目跟他的量可以 我們想要看你的項目跟量還有你最後執行率可以 當然你也不一定會把它花完對吧"},{"start":13824.402,"end":13853.571,"text":"我們不是說一定要把它花完但是我們希望說這個宣傳的效果能夠更到位讓更多勞工知道他們可以來申請相關津貼也好補貼也好的權利我覺得這是最重要的目的那你大概多久可以給我們這個報告現在其實還在招標中但是你應該會有初步的項目跟費用啊會吧我們招標文件是公開的"},{"start":13854.249,"end":13873.074,"text":"其實招標文件是公開的 項目跟費用 對招標文件應該是公開的 最後一個問題我們可以再整理給委員的 對好 啟動了天災臨時工的措施 我要問一下因為我們可以提高當地的經濟還有就業率 讓當地失業啟動了天災臨時工的措施 這個非常好"},{"start":13874.524,"end":13893.734,"text":"這個是你9月25號開始啟動的當然就是災區花蓮自從0403地震很多這個天然的景觀啊太魯閣等等都還沒有修復所以觀光客當然到現在都還沒有復甦好現在又遇到了洪災所以他這個修復之路是慢慢"},{"start":13895.632,"end":13908.585,"text":"就是非常非常的久啦我們也不知道他們到什麼時候才可以重新恢復他的經濟那9月25號事辦到現在我想知道你們這個臨時工的媒合的計畫到底"},{"start":13909.574,"end":13938.533,"text":"有多少人來申請了因為上次0403當時你也是委員許明春是部長大概才過了五天他就告訴我說有15個人來申請可是這次呢我發文給你們你們是回應我說試射資料都不可以說要跑完公文才可以我就覺得很奇怪為什麼許明春部長很快就在這樣子的場合回答我然後你們一定要跑完公文才可以告訴我你們的這個臨時公計畫到底有多少人申請"},{"start":13939.153,"end":13958.598,"text":"我跟委員說其實我昨天有說其實這一次的這個華家莎颱風目前應該是50人那已經上工是40幾人那其實這個數字我認為是比較少的不滿意吧當然是少的那我們其實有我們是主動的跟包括地方政府包括鄉鎮公所主動跟他說"},{"start":13959.938,"end":13987.762,"text":"你可以來申請那只要你提出甚至我幫你寫你的提案計劃我都幫你寫我幫你服務到底那可是因為這一波確實現在比較多他們都還是比較多是因為有大量的志工所以對於這些需要勞動力來協助清理的他們目前其實比較多還是請志工在協助但是我們認為到接下面一個階段比方說開始重建的階段如果志工的數字在災區可能會下降的狀況下面可能會有更多虛工的單位他們會來跟我們申請"},{"start":13988.562,"end":14011.43,"text":"那這是針對華家莎那其實前一波包括在七月的時候台南的風災風災申請的不錯這個我知道大概是兩千多就五十這麼簡單的數字五十你沒有辦法回覆我你還要等公文跑我昨天其實就有說五十了那沒有告訴我們辦公室我們辦公室已經詢問了很久我昨天其實我們在詢答的時候就有說是五十"},{"start":14012.264,"end":14034.224,"text":"好那你有沒有考慮比如說再放寬他的身份我知道你現在已經把程序的繁瑣度降到最低了那你有沒有考慮再把基本工資稍微往上提然後或者是身份的限制他可能有一些雖然戶籍不是在災區但是他的工作是跟災區的上下有產業鏈有相關的他也受到了波及"},{"start":14034.744,"end":14052.88,"text":"他是不是也可以來這邊既然你都已經編了這也是我們編的公務預算其實我們就是想要幫助這些因為災害失業的人嘛對不對其實我們其實近期已經把他的適用範圍盡量擴大了然後當然比如怎麼擴大你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":14055.615,"end":14075.212,"text":"報委員基本上如果他不是涉及在災區但是他是外地到災區工作是工作者也是可以那你覺得工資的這個天花板有辦法再往上提嗎那時候其實我們是已經定在要點裡面他就是以這個最低工資為上限好"},{"start":14075.732,"end":14101.526,"text":"那我會再固定好我會再固定跟你們追每個月你們的執行成效如何好嗎我們希望這筆公務預算已經編了就要幫助到最多人我們跟文說我們其實在林宮這部分我們都是主動的我們不是被動等待人家申請而是主動告訴他說你可以來申請我甚至可以幫你然後甚至我們一直去問他有沒有這個需求可是確實現在災區的目前幾個部尤其地方政府狀況有點混亂他說"},{"start":14102.847,"end":14108.232,"text":"我現在在救災我現在可能沒有辦法一下去做這些事情我們期待你未來幾個月謝謝謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請楊耀委員發言請蔡易瑜委員發言蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":14135.428,"end":14149.932,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題"},{"start":14153.766,"end":14177.888,"text":"因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人 我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播因為很多勞工階層廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對 然後也包括"},{"start":14181.257,"end":14198.955,"text":"包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法"},{"start":14199.315,"end":14215.363,"text":"對 當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上"},{"start":14216.784,"end":14229.886,"text":"那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會"},{"start":14231.114,"end":14250.937,"text":"透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴當然那這個是免費的宣傳當然而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長就是多加利用其實工會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的工會"},{"start":14251.758,"end":14266.193,"text":"其實整體的覆蓋率還不是這麼高所以有很多它比方說現在減半休息的企業它不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦 我是這樣子 我是"},{"start":14267.894,"end":14294.899,"text":"覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論這樣子部長我問一下就是說9月底"},{"start":14296.451,"end":14324.184,"text":"美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤"},{"start":14326.963,"end":14353.428,"text":"遭受 讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司"},{"start":14354.395,"end":14370.947,"text":"解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會"},{"start":14373.106,"end":14382.818,"text":"本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境"},{"start":14386.421,"end":14405.918,"text":"我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解"},{"start":14407.922,"end":14435.88,"text":"所以全面性的了解還沒有完成對 就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供全面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道"},{"start":14436.66,"end":14459.759,"text":"因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以布裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供"},{"start":14460.509,"end":14482.711,"text":"因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁"},{"start":14484.817,"end":14511.482,"text":"過去勞動部這邊並沒有將將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有那現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國"},{"start":14512.262,"end":14534.441,"text":"也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介"},{"start":14535.68,"end":14544.388,"text":"那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那"},{"start":14545.762,"end":14570.798,"text":"可是如果人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介沒有很清楚的告訴企業現在這些關於移工的勞動人權的問題已經會變成你的營運的經濟風險的時候這個風險就變成是企業在承擔可是他對於風險的資訊就不了解所以我想我們在協助裡面我覺得第一步很重要的事情是要讓企業有能力去做這樣的風險評估"},{"start":14572.879,"end":14593.264,"text":"企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步"},{"start":14596.772,"end":14608.726,"text":"那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣"},{"start":14610.953,"end":14638.499,"text":"台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作然後我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫然後來去協助廠商指引要趕快出"},{"start":14640.36,"end":14661.509,"text":"包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動"},{"start":14665.531,"end":14690.012,"text":"指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求"},{"start":14691.515,"end":14718.082,"text":"跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟體育執行的做法"},{"start":14720.404,"end":14743.711,"text":"那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說"},{"start":14747.335,"end":14768.092,"text":"聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的"},{"start":14768.993,"end":14783.627,"text":"那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程度做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有一些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工"},{"start":14784.528,"end":14809.432,"text":"那這林護衛移工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來自己來負擔對 這樣巨大就表示他們對 就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求"},{"start":14811.285,"end":14821.077,"text":"對 這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去"},{"start":14821.516,"end":14847.579,"text":"他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是移工零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟移工來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":14853.973,"end":14859.334,"text":"謝謝楊耀委員發言最後我們請劉建國委員發言謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長"},{"start":14878.806,"end":14881.892,"text":"劉仁豪 部長好 部長可以看一下這次勞動部網站這個勞僱雙方協商減少工時實施人數的"},{"start":14887.556,"end":14911.871,"text":"統計的頁面然後最主要是這樣這個實施無薪假的加速從5月中148家到現在9月底已經攀升到398家這是你們的統計表那人數也從5月中2664人一直到9月底是8505人也就是說等於5月中到9月底實施減班的休息加速暴增2.7倍"},{"start":14913.328,"end":14938.922,"text":"然後實施人數更急增到3.2倍這數字應該沒有錯嘛然後我在一樣在這個委員會是在6月4號的時候我特別有這個提醒部長當時這個無薪假的加數155加然後人數是2831人我希望部長可能要趕快的及早應應那個時候那個時候部長也特別有回應我有幾個事情嘛那我們等一下來討論"},{"start":14940.123,"end":14953.622,"text":"然後但是到目前為止這個五金加人數已經來到8505人會不會很快就突破一萬大關我們的確是要做這個減慢休息數字會再增加的這樣子的"},{"start":14955.122,"end":14970.588,"text":"所以說會很快喔如果部長這樣答覆我的感覺就是很快會突破到一萬大關嘛對不對好那我們就是要再快速的因應還有相關的你們之前所提出來就是說雇用安定的措施嘛然後還有這個充電再出發訓練的計畫"},{"start":14972.969,"end":14991.167,"text":"我當時是特別提到說當時在6月的時候有申請僱用安定措施減30家然後申請充電再出發訓練計畫也只有7家顯示這兩項的計畫成效不髒然後對企業或是勞工不具吸引力"},{"start":14992.967,"end":15012.503,"text":"我希望部長快速的因應之後是我可以在申請的比例到六月底前能不能提高到五成那顯然啦 現在看勞動部提供出來給我們的資料是這樣到十月的時候是申請僱用安定措施是223家有超過五成 58%申請充電再出發訓練計畫86家 只有兩成多"},{"start":15019.289,"end":15027.195,"text":"然後我們如果再談到這個人數充電站出發僅515人那對照人數只有6%這個是有問題的吧跟劉委員說明的確過去在相關的計畫裡面比較像是我如果講比較直白是以充電站出發為主因為他的這個"},{"start":15045.895,"end":15067.252,"text":"範圍比較寬那雇用安定措施的範圍能夠適用的行業比較窄那我們的確現在在這一次關稅衝擊我們把它我做了重新的設定我們現在是希望先以雇用安定措施為主因為他是直接的薪資的差額補貼因為的確會有一些廠商他現在受到關稅衝擊他說他他現在不一定有能力或不一定有意願來辦訓"},{"start":15069.593,"end":15097.87,"text":"所以我們也考慮到這個部分所以我們其實現在是以公安安定措施為主那充電再出發的計畫為輔但是讓他可以兩個併領他不用二則一因為以前只能二則一現在不用二則一他可以併領所以的確在這樣子的我們的優先順序的調整後看到強化版的公安安定措施他的這個申請的比率是有蠻大幅的增加應該部長導護我的意思就是說"},{"start":15099.127,"end":15126.563,"text":"雇佣安定措施比較窄啦過去比較窄但是我們在8月以後蠻大幅的放寬所以我們現在其實是以雇佣安定措施作為支持減半休息勞工尤其是他的經濟收入最主要的計畫會是放在雇佣安定措施裡面因為他不用參訊 不用辦訊他的程序上面更加的簡便但過去是比較窄的然後反而是充電債出發是比較寬比較寬嘛 對不對所以我們把它顛倒過來"},{"start":15128.7,"end":15148.284,"text":"但是你比較寬的緩額申請的加速才佔的這個21%然後比較窄的緩額可以達到5成8因為原本國安定錯是只有3個行業現在我們把它放寬到9個行業是啊 所以你們是禮拜二宣布的嘛 對不對在充電計劃這個勞工參選及企業辦選的相關規定鬆綁是禮拜二對 然後換寬是回溯到8月1日啟用嘛都沒有錯嘛 對不對"},{"start":15157.186,"end":15182.143,"text":"你會不會覺得六月底到現在好像比較慢一關然後放寬規定之後你們有沒有預估到十一月可以突破到五成嗎我覺得可能沒有辦法一下通到那麼快啦可是我們希望盡量的放寬可是的確現在是我說給勞工的經濟知識是關鍵這個再衝進去的話如果參與比例還拉不起來這真的就表示不太好用了"},{"start":15183.106,"end":15197.597,"text":"因為他要辦訊我知道啊那你辦訊現在也沒有也把那個取消企業辦理的課程最低人數都取消掉了嘛所以真的是放得很寬嘛你放得很寬還是他不上來那就真的有問題啊"},{"start":15199.879,"end":15226.613,"text":"我的潛艦嘛 對不對 給你們做參考嘛我們現在把它設定是 它是一個輔助性的啦你看喔 你雇用安定措施雖然是58%啦 但是當時我是要求部長說六月底是不是可以達到五成嘛那現在是十月欸 還是一樣五成八欸然後在八月十三的時候 老東部你們還公告喔叫做強化版雇用安定措施強化版喔 擴大適用對象 補助金額增加然後補貼併領並不衝突嘛 對不對"},{"start":15231.354,"end":15247.647,"text":"我跟委員報告因為顧問安全措施基本上他會有一個要他要減半休息30天的這個制度上設計是要減半休息30天所以我們有去了解其實現在有蠻多還沒提出申請的他可能原因是他減半休息還未滿30日"},{"start":15248.968,"end":15265.653,"text":"那或者是他有一些英倍的文件還沒備齊比方說他的薪資單沒備齊也有一些企業是因為他不一定每個月每個月來申請他可以是一次申請三個月所以他可能會在之後再來去回溯前面的三個月那我們有去跟他了解那他目前還沒來提出來申請的原因"},{"start":15266.713,"end":15286.085,"text":"如果部長這個事情如果我們要做快速運營其實我們都可以按計來討論嘛那時候我們是希望到6月底兩個計畫都可以突破到五成嘛對不對那你們八月份的時候去做一個放寬做一些調整嘛甚至也叫做強化版嘛那我們當然也是可以說6到9那9到11一個週期大家來檢討到時候還是一樣拿不起來"},{"start":15290.974,"end":15314.359,"text":"那顯然就是很大的一個改善的硬硬的空間嘛這樣好不好 不然這兩個計畫我覺得部長還是署都覺得是應該是可以協助勞工 協助企業的但是好像這樣的成效看起來就是應該也沒辦法達到你的標準啦簡單講是這樣啦好不好也應該沒有辦法達到署長的標準啦我目前是請我們分署盡量都是主動去問"},{"start":15315.639,"end":15335.846,"text":"你有資格申請就請你來申請我們其實都是主動不是被動等待的好了我們就11月份的時候再來追部長還是請部長這邊可以就直接來跟委員會做一個說明跟報告看執行的狀況怎麼樣跟廖少偉講也可以跟我講也可以我們都可以再來討論好 署長你們請回啦這個我再請教部長署長可以請回了"},{"start":15340.607,"end":15366.67,"text":"沒有繼續站也沒有關係陪著部長也不錯好 同島一命啦那全台一心救花蓮這花蓮的災害看起來就像昨天我催省部長的這個事情不是只有這個因為展現出這樣的愛心然後放棄自己的這個可以賺錢的機會然後投入在這個災區然後導致這個生命的喪失很多事情都是讓我們都非常感動跟動容的啦那你看這個"},{"start":15368.631,"end":15383.916,"text":"這個著這樣的裝 背著包包然後在那邊酷熱的四十度底下在挖在挖 在清不然我自己有氣啦這個頭頂頭真的是站不住了真的是站不住"},{"start":15387.096,"end":15404.184,"text":"你在身體力壯的年輕小伙子甚至阿兵哥你看阿兵哥都穿長袖的他不是要防曬因為他必須要著的這個制服那其他人幾乎幾乎幾乎反正我很難去形容那個地方而且那個粉塵非常多"},{"start":15405.664,"end":15424.482,"text":"那非常枯熱然後車輛的行駛又特別多雖然都已經有管制了那是一車一車一車這樣再進然後一車一車再出來然後還有這個搬運這個污泥的搬運很多的物資的車輛來來回回其實一般人在那個地方站一個鐘頭可能就已經"},{"start":15426.052,"end":15451.104,"text":"都沒了啦 然後況且還在那邊挖啦那我是要特別提醒啦 特別提醒縱暑如果沒有及時降溫會導致器官衰竭 甚至死亡這是醫界一直在講的所以熱傷害跟縱暑這不是開玩笑的事情所以這些志工超人如此啦那平時在戶外高溫下工作的勞工他們也是處於在一個高縱暑風險的環境當中來做這個工作這部長你應該可以認同嘛"},{"start":15456.069,"end":15483.097,"text":"然後你看這個氣候的極端的發展全球高溫的持續這樣的一個紀錄今年8月世界衛生組織還有這個世界氣象組織也首度的發布了針對勞工熱傷害的健康最新的這樣的指引顯示這個高溫對全球勞工健康的威脅已經達到前所未有的緊急程度這兩個組織都已經發出這樣聲音也訂出了這樣相關指引"},{"start":15484.838,"end":15503.954,"text":"連日本 更是在去年的夏季創世亞史上最熱的7月紀錄然後隨即著手強化防護措施今年新的規定 若這個7月降溫有責 沒房中暑要花50萬日元等於新台幣是10萬元左右的花款"},{"start":15505.091,"end":15519.143,"text":"所以我在2018年的時候本期就針對勞工熱傷害的議題有追尋過這個勞動部但是我們對執行法對熱傷害的概念啦坦白講還遠不如對岸還遠不如對岸2018的時候你看現在幾年幾年了2025了7年了"},{"start":15524.457,"end":15548.947,"text":"所以我是希望那個時候當然在隔年就2019的時候我們有發布這個高溫高氣溫作業熱危害的預防指引在2019年的1月的時候但是一樣面對這個極端期望我覺得這個指引已經不夠了光是這個指引絕對不夠然後氣象署也在規劃修氣象法針對高溫的部分規劃增列為災害性天氣"},{"start":15553.312,"end":15573.039,"text":"這是氣象署所以我不曉得勞動部是否應該針對高溫所產生的勞工的熱傷害然後配合氣象署的修法規劃有沒有更積極的因應作為請部長簡單說跟委員說明其實關於這個高氣溫作業危害熱危害的預防指引其實我們在今年6月的時候再修了一個版本"},{"start":15574.059,"end":15591.778,"text":"那在這個版本裡面其實把包括有一些相關的工作的類別都放進來包括這些自營作業者包括舉牌工包括外送員我們都把它放進來那其實如果可以對應到現在職安法的修訂的話"},{"start":15593.239,"end":15619.495,"text":"包括現在大家很關注的外送員的熱傷害假設如果平台業者沒有提供協助的話甚至都是可以開罰的我們會有直接上面法規並不是只是一個單純沒有牙齒的指引而已其實我們都把它訂出來那也包括我們其實在10月的時候應該是9月的時候我們其實有提出一個包括一些熱危害的預防的設備的一個補助的計畫包括風扇衣然後包括一些這個"},{"start":15621.217,"end":15646.214,"text":"預防的設備那其實我們都有提出一個補助計畫那的確這是大家會越來越重視的一個問題那我這個這一次從六月到現在其實我們也請治安署加強如果沒有很多的工地包括營造業戶外工作如果沒有做好高溫危害的話其實加強的稽查甚至要去確認改善的部分其實也都是在這幾個月裡面其實我們做了蠻多的突破"},{"start":15646.994,"end":15655.557,"text":"所以部長現在的答覆就是說我們有在修的指引有對那職安法都不需要再動職安法現在要修嗎要修嘛對不對還是要從法律的這方面來做修正職安法我們這次的修訂裡面應該是50條我記得是50條"},{"start":15663.18,"end":15681.277,"text":"那修訂完以後其實就可以對於一些剛剛在講到一些這些執行原本是準用可以變成適用適用以後我們其實可以直接來開發包括剛剛說對外送員或者是這些相關更多的業業這個工作者的部分所以我們就執行法的時候來討論了是ok好好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":15685.327,"end":15703.634,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員發言那本日會議詢答全部結束那委員徐欣盈 劉許廷 王育敏 蘇清泉盧憲一所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定一"},{"start":15704.978,"end":15725.858,"text":"報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定最後本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝感謝大家辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"16932","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16932","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc4a1b1968cb0ca4a1bc85bd070859401e2eb94a68550f7b5b192ca48d82fc840a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-09T08:32:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:20:00+08:00","duration":13637,"影片長度":"03:47:17","委員發言時間":"08:32:43 - 12:20:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1697.11596875,"end":1702.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1703.5284687500002,"end":1711.5272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1711.9659687500002,"end":1715.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1716.2690937500001,"end":1717.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1717.7372187500002,"end":1718.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1718.8340937500002,"end":1719.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1719.7284687500003,"end":1721.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1721.8884687500001,"end":1724.3184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1724.7740937500002,"end":1732.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1734.4434687500002,"end":1754.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1755.1322187500002,"end":1767.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1769.3240937500002,"end":1784.2753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1784.4103437500003,"end":1832.0315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1832.3353437500002,"end":1839.3553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1839.4903437500002,"end":1865.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1866.01784375,"end":1868.8022187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1868.8697187500002,"end":1868.9203437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1869.1228437500001,"end":1878.8765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1879.0284687500002,"end":1885.1034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1885.54221875,"end":1890.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1890.8578437500003,"end":1897.0172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1897.1522187500002,"end":1898.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1898.8228437500002,"end":1908.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1908.8803437500003,"end":1912.4747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1912.8122187500003,"end":1915.8665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1916.1197187500002,"end":1925.4009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1925.7553437500003,"end":1946.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1950.8990937500002,"end":1954.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1959.10034375,"end":1967.1665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1967.6053437500002,"end":2101.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2105.5584687500004,"end":2108.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2108.71409375,"end":2111.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2117.03346875,"end":2183.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2184.17909375,"end":2260.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2196.36284375,"end":2196.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2196.4978437500004,"end":2196.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2260.84221875,"end":2290.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2293.09034375,"end":2296.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2296.56659375,"end":2297.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2304.6834687500004,"end":2311.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2312.24346875,"end":2339.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2339.31096875,"end":2348.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2348.45721875,"end":2351.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2351.6972187500005,"end":2355.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2355.71346875,"end":2356.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2356.84409375,"end":2364.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2364.5222187500003,"end":2366.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2366.78346875,"end":2415.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2416.2272187500002,"end":2422.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2422.2178437500006,"end":2429.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2429.7947187500004,"end":2465.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2465.8903437500003,"end":2477.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2478.46221875,"end":2490.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2494.32471875,"end":2495.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2496.3497187500006,"end":2502.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2503.28534375,"end":2514.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2514.3553437500004,"end":2526.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2531.5340937500005,"end":2533.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2539.2459687500004,"end":2539.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2539.88721875,"end":2543.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2543.97096875,"end":2575.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2564.96346875,"end":2565.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2575.86471875,"end":2575.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2576.05034375,"end":2577.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2577.3328437500004,"end":2579.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2579.5603437500004,"end":2582.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2582.54721875,"end":2582.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2582.5809687500005,"end":2589.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2589.7528437500005,"end":2590.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2590.6640937500006,"end":2593.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2593.6003437500003,"end":2594.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2594.9334687500004,"end":2595.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2595.7265937500006,"end":2596.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2596.8065937500005,"end":2600.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2600.2997187500005,"end":2603.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2603.6072187500004,"end":2605.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2605.5478437500005,"end":2605.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2605.6659687500005,"end":2607.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2608.1297187500004,"end":2611.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2611.7409687500003,"end":2625.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2626.4053437500006,"end":2628.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2629.18971875,"end":2630.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2632.4972187500007,"end":2636.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2637.2897187500002,"end":2637.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2637.3065937500005,"end":2639.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2639.61846875,"end":2644.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2644.0565937500005,"end":2644.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2644.09034375,"end":2644.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2644.5290937500004,"end":2647.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2647.88721875,"end":2648.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2649.74346875,"end":2652.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2653.5234687500006,"end":2656.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2657.1178437500002,"end":2664.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2664.5597187500007,"end":2666.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2667.6815937500005,"end":2672.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2672.5078437500006,"end":2676.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2677.18221875,"end":2679.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2679.8990937500002,"end":2687.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2687.7628437500007,"end":2689.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2688.99471875,"end":2692.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2692.23471875,"end":2693.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2693.8209687500002,"end":2698.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2699.3222187500005,"end":2701.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2702.73096875,"end":2705.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2705.61659375,"end":2708.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2708.2997187500005,"end":2716.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2717.0409687500005,"end":2718.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2718.8972187500003,"end":2723.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2723.6728437500005,"end":2723.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2723.9090937500005,"end":2725.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2725.7822187500005,"end":2726.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2726.6259687500005,"end":2734.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2735.0128437500007,"end":2738.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2737.86471875,"end":2738.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2738.70846875,"end":2740.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2740.02471875,"end":2751.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2753.11971875,"end":2753.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2753.1365937500004,"end":2753.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2753.1534687500007,"end":2755.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2755.2628437500007,"end":2762.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2762.33346875,"end":2762.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2762.9747187500006,"end":2764.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2762.9747187500006,"end":2766.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2766.8728437500004,"end":2770.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2771.24346875,"end":2771.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2771.98596875,"end":2772.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2772.7790937500004,"end":2774.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2775.47909375,"end":2777.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2776.74471875,"end":2783.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2782.9040937500004,"end":2802.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2784.22034375,"end":2784.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2802.1922187500004,"end":2803.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2803.06971875,"end":2825.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2804.5547187500006,"end":2804.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2825.5134687500004,"end":2838.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2838.69284375,"end":2839.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2839.23284375,"end":2840.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2841.0215937500006,"end":2847.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2846.2022187500006,"end":2855.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2850.08346875,"end":2850.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2854.4372187500003,"end":2854.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2856.2090937500006,"end":2858.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2858.4872187500005,"end":2868.1397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2859.8878437500007,"end":2861.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2868.0722187500005,"end":2868.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2868.3084687500004,"end":2874.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2874.6872187500003,"end":2898.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2898.78471875,"end":2899.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2900.4384687500005,"end":2901.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2901.78846875,"end":2918.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2919.5915937500004,"end":2924.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2924.68784375,"end":2928.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2926.56096875,"end":2927.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2929.8347187500003,"end":2930.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2931.8428437500006,"end":2933.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2935.25159375,"end":2955.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2956.9022187500004,"end":2961.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2961.44159375,"end":2995.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2996.7272187500002,"end":3001.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3002.49846875,"end":3006.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3007.2740937500002,"end":3008.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3008.64096875,"end":3015.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3016.67346875,"end":3017.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3017.12909375,"end":3017.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3017.19659375,"end":3031.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3030.5447187500004,"end":3031.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3031.77659375,"end":3033.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3033.88596875,"end":3037.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3035.5059687500006,"end":3039.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3037.1090937500003,"end":3037.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3038.8640937500004,"end":3039.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3039.15096875,"end":3051.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3052.1953437500006,"end":3054.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3054.03471875,"end":3054.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3054.2878437500003,"end":3062.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3056.0934687500003,"end":3056.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3060.17721875,"end":3060.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3062.0672187500004,"end":3063.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3064.86846875,"end":3069.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3065.40846875,"end":3066.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3068.7159687500007,"end":3073.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3072.52971875,"end":3087.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3074.0653437500005,"end":3074.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3087.4978437500004,"end":3088.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3088.1559687500003,"end":3112.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3112.96221875,"end":3119.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3113.33346875,"end":3113.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3115.1222187500007,"end":3115.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3119.7459687500004,"end":3121.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3122.73284375,"end":3123.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3124.1334687500002,"end":3124.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3125.31471875,"end":3126.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3126.7997187500005,"end":3129.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3128.3690937500005,"end":3128.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3129.2634687500004,"end":3129.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3129.53346875,"end":3129.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3129.7528437500005,"end":3132.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3132.97596875,"end":3144.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3144.8222187500005,"end":3148.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3148.7372187500005,"end":3160.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3161.71409375,"end":3163.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3163.28346875,"end":3166.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3166.7597187500005,"end":3170.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3168.1940937500003,"end":3177.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3170.87721875,"end":3172.4972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3178.0153437500003,"end":3183.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3184.3097187500007,"end":3187.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3188.24159375,"end":3191.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3192.22409375,"end":3195.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3196.1222187500007,"end":3200.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3200.5097187500005,"end":3205.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3206.0615937500006,"end":3207.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3208.55909375,"end":3222.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3223.2740937500002,"end":3225.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3226.4972187500007,"end":3232.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3233.61846875,"end":3236.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3237.41534375,"end":3251.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3252.7040937500005,"end":3253.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3253.34534375,"end":3253.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3253.6659687500005,"end":3264.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3264.5840937500006,"end":3271.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3271.35096875,"end":3272.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3272.3972187500003,"end":3275.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3276.12659375,"end":3281.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3279.83909375,"end":3281.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3281.2565937500003,"end":3281.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3281.29034375,"end":3281.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3281.5097187500005,"end":3281.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3281.7459687500004,"end":3284.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3285.03659375,"end":3292.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3293.0353437500007,"end":3303.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3303.8015937500004,"end":3306.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3304.49346875,"end":3305.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3306.3497187500006,"end":3313.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3311.1590937500005,"end":3311.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3313.04909375,"end":3313.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3313.5722187500005,"end":3362.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3313.6397187500006,"end":3313.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3314.21346875,"end":3315.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3362.8134687500005,"end":3363.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3363.57284375,"end":3364.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3366.57659375,"end":3368.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3368.8209687500002,"end":3369.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3369.3103437500004,"end":3370.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3369.5465937500003,"end":3372.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3371.87534375,"end":3375.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3375.3515937500006,"end":3375.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3375.43596875,"end":3375.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3376.21221875,"end":3380.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3380.7853437500007,"end":3384.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3385.2403437500006,"end":3396.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3398.6559687500003,"end":3407.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3408.4434687500006,"end":3411.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3416.2565937500003,"end":3423.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3418.58534375,"end":3419.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3423.3103437500004,"end":3423.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3423.47909375,"end":3427.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3424.00221875,"end":3424.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3427.6472187500003,"end":3427.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3428.5078437500006,"end":3429.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3429.5709687500002,"end":3431.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3431.84909375,"end":3433.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3434.02596875,"end":3435.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3435.9665937500004,"end":3442.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3442.51409375,"end":3442.8009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3443.2734687500006,"end":3452.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3452.9259687500007,"end":3455.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3455.6934687500006,"end":3458.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3459.01784375,"end":3464.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3465.24471875,"end":3467.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3467.5397187500002,"end":3470.6447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3470.9147187500002,"end":3471.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3471.80909375,"end":3472.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3472.3322187500007,"end":3474.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3474.52596875,"end":3475.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3476.68596875,"end":3481.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3481.9678437500006,"end":3483.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3483.3009687500007,"end":3485.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3486.0515937500004,"end":3487.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3487.6209687500004,"end":3489.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3489.8653437500006,"end":3491.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3491.63721875,"end":3494.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3494.4890937500004,"end":3494.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3494.52284375,"end":3494.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3494.6072187500004,"end":3503.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3494.6747187500005,"end":3494.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3504.1247187500003,"end":3504.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3505.20471875,"end":3506.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3506.68971875,"end":3507.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3508.32659375,"end":3509.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3509.23784375,"end":3518.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3519.0928437500006,"end":3521.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3521.6915937500007,"end":3521.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3522.3834687500002,"end":3522.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3522.4003437500005,"end":3522.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3522.90659375,"end":3530.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3530.02784375,"end":3530.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3530.19659375,"end":3530.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3530.9728437500007,"end":3539.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3539.8828437500006,"end":3555.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3555.62721875,"end":3557.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3557.4834687500006,"end":3560.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3559.37346875,"end":3559.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3560.3522187500002,"end":3583.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3565.53284375,"end":3565.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3584.02784375,"end":3612.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3612.76596875,"end":3612.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3613.1540937500004,"end":3613.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3613.1709687500006,"end":3613.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3613.20471875,"end":3613.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3614.1328437500006,"end":3618.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3618.50346875,"end":3621.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3619.70159375,"end":3620.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3621.2372187500005,"end":3621.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3622.3847187500005,"end":3632.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3633.08346875,"end":3635.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3637.0153437500003,"end":3639.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3639.27659375,"end":3641.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3642.12846875,"end":3654.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3655.3415937500004,"end":3661.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3661.83846875,"end":3662.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3662.7159687500007,"end":3664.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3664.9434687500006,"end":3667.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3667.74471875,"end":3669.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3670.37721875,"end":3670.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3671.3728437500004,"end":3674.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3674.6972187500005,"end":3675.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3675.74346875,"end":3678.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3678.4434687500006,"end":3691.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3691.35284375,"end":3694.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3695.0147187500006,"end":3698.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3699.38534375,"end":3708.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3708.6328437500006,"end":3712.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3713.2734687500006,"end":3720.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3721.1034687500005,"end":3726.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3726.7734687500006,"end":3732.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3733.2197187500005,"end":3740.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3740.7965937500003,"end":3741.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3741.9103437500007,"end":3745.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3745.9940937500005,"end":3749.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3749.6053437500004,"end":3751.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3751.8834687500002,"end":3753.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3753.85784375,"end":3757.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3758.1778437500006,"end":3760.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3760.54034375,"end":3761.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3761.5359687500004,"end":3763.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3764.4384687500005,"end":3768.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3769.3659687500003,"end":3769.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3770.2772187500004,"end":3770.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3771.1378437500007,"end":3773.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3773.7703437500004,"end":3774.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3775.2215937500005,"end":3775.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3776.7740937500002,"end":3778.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3778.8328437500004,"end":3779.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3779.77784375,"end":3780.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3780.67221875,"end":3781.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3781.21221875,"end":3783.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3784.72221875,"end":3785.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3786.2578437500006,"end":3787.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3787.1690937500007,"end":3787.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3788.0128437500007,"end":3789.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3790.1053437500004,"end":3801.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3797.6990937500004,"end":3797.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3799.11659375,"end":3799.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3799.53846875,"end":3799.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3801.9178437500004,"end":3805.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3805.0734687500008,"end":3805.3097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3805.3434687500003,"end":3805.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3805.37721875,"end":3805.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3805.39409375,"end":3805.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3805.4109687500004,"end":3805.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3805.5459687500006,"end":3808.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3809.12346875,"end":3812.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3812.31284375,"end":3822.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3819.92346875,"end":3829.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3829.60971875,"end":3832.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3832.39409375,"end":3837.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3837.6084687500006,"end":3840.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3841.3378437500005,"end":3846.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3846.2822187500005,"end":3847.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3848.1047187500008,"end":3853.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3854.02784375,"end":3854.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3855.71534375,"end":3856.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3856.8122187500003,"end":3861.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3861.73971875,"end":3862.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3862.9715937500005,"end":3863.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3864.50721875,"end":3866.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3866.8865937500004,"end":3873.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3874.14284375,"end":3876.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3877.3322187500007,"end":3881.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3881.63534375,"end":3883.5422187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3884.63909375,"end":3885.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3885.3478437500007,"end":3893.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3893.7178437500006,"end":3896.6203437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3896.87346875,"end":3897.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3898.3078437500008,"end":3900.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3900.8053437500002,"end":3901.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3901.86846875,"end":3902.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3903.3028437500006,"end":3907.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3908.4159687500005,"end":3910.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3911.28471875,"end":3914.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3915.01409375,"end":3917.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3917.5115937500004,"end":3918.5578437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3919.4015937500008,"end":3919.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3920.1609687500004,"end":3921.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3924.3290937500005,"end":3924.8859687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3925.25721875,"end":3929.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3930.92721875,"end":3942.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3943.33034375,"end":3956.1047187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3956.6953437500006,"end":3957.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3957.4715937500005,"end":3957.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3957.6403437500003,"end":3957.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3957.8428437500006,"end":3958.3322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3958.3322187500007,"end":3963.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3963.8165937500007,"end":3965.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3965.26784375,"end":3968.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3968.5078437500006,"end":3974.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3968.52471875,"end":3968.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3968.59221875,"end":3968.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3970.4822187500004,"end":3971.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3974.38034375,"end":3978.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3976.13534375,"end":3976.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3978.8690937500005,"end":3992.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3993.5840937500006,"end":3997.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3997.9715937500005,"end":4002.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4003.1690937500007,"end":4005.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4006.7634687500004,"end":4013.5978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4014.0534687500003,"end":4014.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4015.6903437500005,"end":4021.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4021.20846875,"end":4023.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4024.70159375,"end":4025.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4027.35096875,"end":4031.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4029.34221875,"end":4037.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4037.6784687500003,"end":4038.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4038.4884687500007,"end":4041.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4041.7959687500006,"end":4050.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4050.8240937500004,"end":4054.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4055.3634687500007,"end":4063.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4063.27784375,"end":4076.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4076.96346875,"end":4081.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4081.9753437500003,"end":4083.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4083.57846875,"end":4085.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4085.1647187500002,"end":4087.5440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4087.9490937500004,"end":4094.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4094.8340937500006,"end":4111.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4111.911593750001,"end":4113.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4115.286593750001,"end":4120.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4120.872218750001,"end":4121.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4122.137843750001,"end":4124.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4125.1415937500005,"end":4133.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4133.83221875,"end":4137.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4137.49409375,"end":4139.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4141.9490937499995,"end":4149.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4149.81284375,"end":4154.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4155.19596875,"end":4161.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4162.401593750001,"end":4164.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4164.983468750001,"end":4169.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4170.501593749999,"end":4172.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4172.72909375,"end":4174.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4174.61909375,"end":4176.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4177.015343749999,"end":4181.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4181.149718750001,"end":4181.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4181.45346875,"end":4191.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4191.7978437500005,"end":4192.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4193.36721875,"end":4195.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4195.29096875,"end":4198.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4200.01596875,"end":4220.097218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4220.73846875,"end":4222.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4222.71284375,"end":4223.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4224.34971875,"end":4225.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4225.446593750001,"end":4231.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4232.26409375,"end":4236.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4239.419093750001,"end":4244.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4245.20721875,"end":4248.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4249.392218749999,"end":4254.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4254.38721875,"end":4257.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4258.65659375,"end":4259.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4260.782843749999,"end":4268.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4268.69721875,"end":4282.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4282.61909375,"end":4283.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4284.509093750001,"end":4287.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4288.154093749999,"end":4293.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4293.38534375,"end":4298.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4298.700968749999,"end":4299.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4300.0340937500005,"end":4300.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4301.4853437500005,"end":4301.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4302.734093749999,"end":4308.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4308.96096875,"end":4314.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4314.10784375,"end":4317.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4318.680968750001,"end":4320.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4321.5497187500005,"end":4333.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4334.50971875,"end":4338.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4338.72846875,"end":4341.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4341.39471875,"end":4350.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4350.62534375,"end":4354.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4354.776593750001,"end":4366.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4366.84221875,"end":4367.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4368.25971875,"end":4375.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4375.41471875,"end":4377.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4377.743468750001,"end":4384.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4385.185343749999,"end":4396.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4397.419718749999,"end":4410.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4411.42596875,"end":4419.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4420.47096875,"end":4435.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4436.232218749999,"end":4437.784718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4437.835343750001,"end":4438.628468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4438.89846875,"end":4439.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4440.19784375,"end":4445.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4445.63159375,"end":4447.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4447.74096875,"end":4448.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4449.58034375,"end":4450.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4450.45784375,"end":4450.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4451.284718749999,"end":4453.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4455.16596875,"end":4475.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4476.44534375,"end":4481.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4481.87909375,"end":4483.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4483.684718750001,"end":4488.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4489.202843749999,"end":4490.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4490.53596875,"end":4495.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4496.17221875,"end":4499.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4499.850968750001,"end":4501.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4503.411593750001,"end":4504.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4505.53784375,"end":4506.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4506.71909375,"end":4507.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4508.1365937499995,"end":4510.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4510.56659375,"end":4514.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4515.67971875,"end":4519.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4520.421593749999,"end":4525.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4525.38284375,"end":4527.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4527.91409375,"end":4529.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4530.20909375,"end":4530.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4531.390343749999,"end":4534.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4534.579718749999,"end":4534.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4535.30534375,"end":4537.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4537.83659375,"end":4542.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4542.3084687499995,"end":4543.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4544.50221875,"end":4549.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4549.69971875,"end":4550.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4550.86409375,"end":4559.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4559.31846875,"end":4561.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4562.22096875,"end":4566.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4566.878468749999,"end":4567.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4567.36784375,"end":4569.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4569.44346875,"end":4570.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4571.147843750001,"end":4573.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4574.21909375,"end":4584.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4585.019093749999,"end":4597.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4598.13096875,"end":4601.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4601.657843749999,"end":4602.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4602.974093750001,"end":4603.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4604.40846875,"end":4606.534718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4606.70346875,"end":4611.175343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4611.462218750001,"end":4614.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4615.46159375,"end":4639.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4650.6122187500005,"end":4664.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4665.040343750001,"end":4666.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4667.571593750001,"end":4670.237843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4670.27159375,"end":4674.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4673.764718750001,"end":4674.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4675.064093749999,"end":4683.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4681.392218749999,"end":4685.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4684.0584687499995,"end":4684.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4685.155343750001,"end":4695.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4695.0947187500005,"end":4697.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4698.132218750001,"end":4702.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4699.296593749999,"end":4705.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4706.26596875,"end":4711.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4710.19784375,"end":4710.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4710.923468749999,"end":4710.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4710.95721875,"end":4718.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4717.015343749999,"end":4722.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4721.622218750001,"end":4721.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4721.63909375,"end":4733.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4724.794718749999,"end":4724.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4724.91284375,"end":4725.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4725.132218750001,"end":4725.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4733.249093750001,"end":4736.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4741.905968749999,"end":4761.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4762.358468750001,"end":4775.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4776.550343750001,"end":4780.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4781.055968750001,"end":4783.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4784.565968750001,"end":4794.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4794.370343750001,"end":4803.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4803.9384687500005,"end":4808.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4809.3553437499995,"end":4817.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4818.34971875,"end":4824.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4825.200968749999,"end":4830.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4831.88346875,"end":4847.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4848.30284375,"end":4848.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4848.977843750001,"end":4894.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4882.390343749999,"end":4882.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4882.6434687500005,"end":4882.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4894.810343749999,"end":4895.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4895.940968750001,"end":4904.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4905.15471875,"end":4913.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4914.16596875,"end":4915.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4916.41034375,"end":4930.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4931.39534375,"end":4931.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4931.96909375,"end":4956.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4954.9697187500005,"end":4959.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4959.4247187500005,"end":4961.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4961.97284375,"end":4964.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4962.85034375,"end":4964.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4964.87534375,"end":4964.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4965.38159375,"end":4968.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4968.33471875,"end":4972.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4968.38534375,"end":4968.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4972.99221875,"end":4975.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4976.16471875,"end":4978.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4978.780343750001,"end":4981.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4981.80096875,"end":4996.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4997.055968750001,"end":4998.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4998.878468750001,"end":5000.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5000.97096875,"end":5001.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5001.983468750001,"end":5003.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5003.4853437500005,"end":5010.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5003.519093750001,"end":5003.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5011.04534375,"end":5036.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5037.10034375,"end":5040.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5041.08284375,"end":5063.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5046.61784375,"end":5046.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5057.02971875,"end":5057.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5057.704718749999,"end":5059.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5063.948468750001,"end":5066.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5066.64846875,"end":5070.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5070.71534375,"end":5072.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5073.06096875,"end":5077.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5077.75221875,"end":5084.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5085.48096875,"end":5095.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5091.96096875,"end":5091.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5095.859093749999,"end":5103.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5103.67221875,"end":5106.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5106.4228437500005,"end":5107.907843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5108.26221875,"end":5112.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5112.39659375,"end":5113.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5113.763468749999,"end":5118.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5118.4715937500005,"end":5119.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5119.28159375,"end":5119.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5119.4334687499995,"end":5122.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5121.745343750001,"end":5129.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5128.79909375,"end":5129.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5129.8622187500005,"end":5138.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5138.78909375,"end":5139.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5139.48096875,"end":5140.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5140.47659375,"end":5143.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5143.9022187499995,"end":5148.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5148.8465937500005,"end":5171.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5151.884093750001,"end":5151.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5155.731593750001,"end":5155.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5155.93409375,"end":5156.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5156.03534375,"end":5156.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5166.497843749999,"end":5167.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5169.34971875,"end":5169.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5172.269093750001,"end":5181.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5174.12534375,"end":5174.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5174.31096875,"end":5174.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5181.63471875,"end":5181.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5181.972218750001,"end":5196.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5196.5184687500005,"end":5206.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5206.727843750001,"end":5213.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5214.4228437500005,"end":5222.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5219.55284375,"end":5219.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5221.307843750001,"end":5221.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5222.472218750001,"end":5222.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5222.657843749999,"end":5226.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5222.69159375,"end":5222.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5226.319718750001,"end":5226.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5226.977843750001,"end":5240.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5241.30471875,"end":5250.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5250.889718750001,"end":5251.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5251.868468750001,"end":5252.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5252.155343750001,"end":5252.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5252.88096875,"end":5255.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5255.479718750001,"end":5264.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5260.52534375,"end":5261.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5261.841593749999,"end":5262.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5264.27159375,"end":5264.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5264.74409375,"end":5268.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5265.452843749999,"end":5266.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5268.794093750001,"end":5283.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5271.6122187500005,"end":5271.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5283.593468749999,"end":5285.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5283.66096875,"end":5296.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5296.215968750001,"end":5304.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5296.2665937500005,"end":5296.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5298.882218750001,"end":5299.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5302.020968750001,"end":5302.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5302.9490937499995,"end":5302.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5303.35409375,"end":5303.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5306.54346875,"end":5309.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5310.47534375,"end":5316.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5328.71721875,"end":5331.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5333.425343750001,"end":5337.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5342.655968749999,"end":5343.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5343.415343750001,"end":5400.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5400.99284375,"end":5401.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5401.70159375,"end":5404.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5404.41846875,"end":5438.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5438.708468750001,"end":5441.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5440.42971875,"end":5445.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5443.399718750001,"end":5443.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5444.091593749999,"end":5446.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5446.825343750001,"end":5467.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5469.52221875,"end":5470.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5470.14659375,"end":5470.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5471.68221875,"end":5549.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5550.083468750001,"end":5555.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5555.92221875,"end":5556.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5555.97284375,"end":5555.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5556.10784375,"end":5560.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5560.444718750001,"end":5560.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5560.90034375,"end":5563.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5563.46534375,"end":5572.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5570.0634687500005,"end":5572.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5572.864718750001,"end":5577.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5577.4715937500005,"end":5578.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5578.7372187500005,"end":5579.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5580.81284375,"end":5586.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5586.85409375,"end":5590.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5590.819718750001,"end":5596.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5596.84409375,"end":5601.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5602.27784375,"end":5609.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5602.345343749999,"end":5603.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5604.20159375,"end":5604.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5610.25971875,"end":5627.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5624.940968750001,"end":5671.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5630.340968750001,"end":5632.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5634.5428437499995,"end":5635.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5636.5340937500005,"end":5637.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5642.27159375,"end":5644.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5646.38909375,"end":5646.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5646.608468750001,"end":5646.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5650.2197187500005,"end":5650.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5650.69221875,"end":5650.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5650.725968750001,"end":5650.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5652.39659375,"end":5652.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5665.50846875,"end":5665.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5671.38096875,"end":5672.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5671.41471875,"end":5675.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5674.13159375,"end":5683.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5682.82221875,"end":5692.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5690.905343750001,"end":5739.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5693.30159375,"end":5694.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5694.600968750001,"end":5695.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5697.4022187499995,"end":5697.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5740.635968750001,"end":5748.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5748.24659375,"end":5751.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5752.04346875,"end":5752.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5752.212218750001,"end":5752.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5752.262843750001,"end":5752.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5752.6678437499995,"end":5789.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5789.91096875,"end":5814.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5808.270968750001,"end":5809.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5814.599093750001,"end":5824.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5824.2684687500005,"end":5827.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5827.94721875,"end":5854.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5855.2509687500005,"end":5896.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5897.759093750001,"end":5899.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5898.6365937499995,"end":5903.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5903.91846875,"end":5906.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5907.040343750001,"end":5915.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5916.01784375,"end":5916.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5916.085343750001,"end":5920.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5920.23659375,"end":5960.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5920.489718750001,"end":5921.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5956.56846875,"end":5956.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5956.585343750001,"end":5956.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5959.403468750001,"end":5959.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5959.639718750001,"end":5959.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5964.128468750001,"end":5968.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5971.94159375,"end":5972.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5972.9540937500005,"end":5972.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5973.29159375,"end":5974.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5975.9072187500005,"end":5978.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5978.995343750001,"end":5979.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5982.77534375,"end":5982.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5982.792218750001,"end":5989.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5993.0184687500005,"end":5993.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5993.423468750001,"end":5993.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5993.997218750001,"end":5994.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5995.33034375,"end":5996.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5996.59596875,"end":5999.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5999.700968749999,"end":6008.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6008.3915937500005,"end":6058.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6058.32471875,"end":6065.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6065.64846875,"end":6066.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6065.6990937499995,"end":6066.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6067.09971875,"end":6068.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6068.21346875,"end":6069.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6069.44534375,"end":6070.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6070.4072187500005,"end":6071.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6072.21284375,"end":6139.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6139.257218750001,"end":6182.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6182.96346875,"end":6204.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6204.782843750001,"end":6210.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6211.634093750001,"end":6224.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6225.6572187500005,"end":6225.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6226.33221875,"end":6228.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6229.18409375,"end":6233.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6233.6053437499995,"end":6233.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6233.622218750001,"end":6233.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6233.82471875,"end":6233.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6233.87534375,"end":6233.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6234.229718750001,"end":6234.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6234.9384687500005,"end":6235.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6234.95534375,"end":6236.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6235.917218750001,"end":6236.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6237.233468750001,"end":6237.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6237.25034375,"end":6240.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6241.51971875,"end":6244.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6244.84409375,"end":6244.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6245.45159375,"end":6252.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6252.53909375,"end":6258.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6259.27221875,"end":6262.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6262.022843750001,"end":6266.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6266.35971875,"end":6268.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6269.78534375,"end":6269.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6269.802218750001,"end":6270.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6270.139718750001,"end":6272.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6272.63721875,"end":6273.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6273.81846875,"end":6274.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6274.03784375,"end":6278.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6274.05471875,"end":6274.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6278.138468749999,"end":6278.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6278.86409375,"end":6279.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6279.842843750001,"end":6280.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6280.04534375,"end":6283.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6282.036593750001,"end":6284.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6283.6903437500005,"end":6298.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6286.120343750001,"end":6286.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6286.52534375,"end":6286.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6286.60971875,"end":6286.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6286.66034375,"end":6287.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6291.62159375,"end":6293.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6299.046593749999,"end":6303.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6299.232218749999,"end":6299.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6300.29534375,"end":6304.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6303.315968750001,"end":6303.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6304.733468750001,"end":6305.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6305.3915937500005,"end":6308.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6308.78346875,"end":6320.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6320.62971875,"end":6333.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6333.35346875,"end":6403.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6403.89096875,"end":6413.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6414.0497187500005,"end":6416.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6416.78346875,"end":6422.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6423.16221875,"end":6425.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6425.474093750001,"end":6426.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6426.4697187500005,"end":6431.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6426.52034375,"end":6426.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6430.60409375,"end":6446.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6446.92221875,"end":6451.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6451.46159375,"end":6460.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6461.434718750001,"end":6467.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6467.50971875,"end":6482.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6483.220343750001,"end":6489.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6489.464093750001,"end":6491.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6492.14721875,"end":6492.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6493.14284375,"end":6497.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6498.66096875,"end":6505.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6501.7997187500005,"end":6502.390343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6505.69784375,"end":6513.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6506.6259687500005,"end":6508.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6508.5497187500005,"end":6508.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6514.23659375,"end":6514.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6514.624718749999,"end":6520.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6520.09221875,"end":6521.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6521.50971875,"end":6527.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6529.120343750001,"end":6530.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6530.63909375,"end":6532.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6532.90034375,"end":6536.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6535.161593750001,"end":6538.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6538.31721875,"end":6538.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6538.350968750001,"end":6540.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6540.561593750001,"end":6540.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6541.37159375,"end":6542.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6542.384093750001,"end":6553.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6549.96096875,"end":6550.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6554.12909375,"end":6563.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6563.477843750001,"end":6571.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6572.235968750001,"end":6576.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6577.38284375,"end":6585.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6585.364718750001,"end":6590.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6586.917218750001,"end":6587.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6588.62159375,"end":6588.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6590.62971875,"end":6593.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6591.608468750001,"end":6639.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6639.972218750001,"end":6672.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6672.591593749999,"end":6714.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6714.57659375,"end":6714.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6714.930968750001,"end":6725.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6724.904093749999,"end":6726.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6727.36784375,"end":6731.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6740.83409375,"end":6743.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6744.25971875,"end":6747.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6747.29721875,"end":6748.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6751.43159375,"end":6752.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6752.12346875,"end":6753.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6753.76034375,"end":6941.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6941.477843750001,"end":6955.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6955.163468750001,"end":6997.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6957.15471875,"end":6958.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6997.14846875,"end":7002.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6999.173468750001,"end":6999.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7000.60784375,"end":7010.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7010.5809687500005,"end":7026.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7025.73471875,"end":7035.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7035.01596875,"end":7063.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7064.17596875,"end":7074.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7073.49096875,"end":7094.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7085.82659375,"end":7086.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7094.804093750001,"end":7094.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7095.02346875,"end":7098.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7098.85409375,"end":7119.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7119.4247187500005,"end":7204.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7170.420968750001,"end":7170.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7205.014718750001,"end":7242.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7242.747218750001,"end":7330.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7310.2303437499995,"end":7310.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7328.48909375,"end":7335.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7336.13346875,"end":7337.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7337.68596875,"end":7344.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7344.638468749999,"end":7348.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7348.587218750001,"end":7356.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7356.130343750001,"end":7362.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7357.530968750001,"end":7358.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7359.99471875,"end":7382.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7382.96159375,"end":7385.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7385.72909375,"end":7412.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7399.14471875,"end":7400.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7400.03909375,"end":7400.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7400.376593750001,"end":7400.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7400.49471875,"end":7400.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7412.239718750001,"end":7417.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7418.26409375,"end":7423.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7423.22534375,"end":7426.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7425.7059687500005,"end":7428.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7427.12346875,"end":7430.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7429.215968750001,"end":7432.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7432.354718750001,"end":7443.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7435.999718750001,"end":7436.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7442.49659375,"end":7456.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7456.823468750001,"end":7464.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7459.624718750001,"end":7462.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7463.72534375,"end":7468.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7467.690968750001,"end":7482.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7470.1884687500005,"end":7473.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7473.782843750001,"end":7473.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7480.04346875,"end":7480.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7481.427218750001,"end":7481.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7481.528468750001,"end":7481.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7483.51971875,"end":7483.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7483.536593750001,"end":7487.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7488.53159375,"end":7494.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7497.66096875,"end":7497.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7500.090968750001,"end":7504.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7504.2928437499995,"end":7505.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7504.84971875,"end":7507.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7507.347218750001,"end":7508.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7508.663468750001,"end":7511.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7513.60784375,"end":7513.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7513.624718750001,"end":7513.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7513.6415937500005,"end":7514.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7516.679093750001,"end":7517.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7517.64096875,"end":7535.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7535.68034375,"end":7545.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7545.67034375,"end":7546.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7547.290343750001,"end":7549.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7549.75409375,"end":7551.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7551.89721875,"end":7561.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7561.904093749999,"end":7563.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7564.536593750001,"end":7573.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7574.08784375,"end":7575.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7576.4334687499995,"end":7578.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7579.09971875,"end":7579.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7580.010968750001,"end":7580.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7581.34409375,"end":7582.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7583.149718750001,"end":7591.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7591.874093750001,"end":7596.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7597.679093750001,"end":7615.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7616.190968750001,"end":7617.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7618.6209687499995,"end":7618.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7619.26221875,"end":7625.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7625.91096875,"end":7626.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7627.260968750001,"end":7628.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7628.475968750001,"end":7631.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7631.378468750001,"end":7637.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7637.807843750001,"end":7639.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7639.98471875,"end":7645.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7645.80659375,"end":7646.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7647.07221875,"end":7657.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7660.60596875,"end":7665.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7665.499718750001,"end":7666.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7666.32659375,"end":7666.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7666.46159375,"end":7677.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7675.97909375,"end":7678.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7678.03784375,"end":7683.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7680.653468750001,"end":7681.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7683.032843750001,"end":7685.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7683.606593750001,"end":7684.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7684.8553437499995,"end":7695.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7695.57096875,"end":7695.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7696.19534375,"end":7699.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7699.030343750001,"end":7699.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7699.28346875,"end":7704.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7705.47659375,"end":7705.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7706.202218750001,"end":7706.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7707.2147187499995,"end":7709.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7709.3240937499995,"end":7709.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7709.64471875,"end":7715.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7717.154093749999,"end":7720.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7720.529093749999,"end":7721.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7721.30534375,"end":7725.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7726.04721875,"end":7726.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7726.114718750001,"end":7726.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7726.1990937499995,"end":7727.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7728.67971875,"end":7736.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7733.607218749999,"end":7734.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7736.003468750001,"end":7738.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7738.97346875,"end":7742.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7742.83784375,"end":7744.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7744.677218750001,"end":7747.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7747.41096875,"end":7748.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7747.7822187500005,"end":7748.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7748.96346875,"end":7757.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7749.43596875,"end":7749.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7757.58659375,"end":7759.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7759.780343750001,"end":7787.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7787.92784375,"end":7795.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7795.84221875,"end":7829.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7811.4178437499995,"end":7811.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7829.845343750001,"end":7830.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7830.95909375,"end":7831.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7832.562218750001,"end":7838.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7838.21534375,"end":7838.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7839.34596875,"end":7859.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7859.663468750001,"end":7861.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7861.030343750001,"end":7899.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7899.62346875,"end":7910.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7908.044093750001,"end":7908.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7910.03534375,"end":7910.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7910.5584687499995,"end":7912.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7910.575343750001,"end":7911.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7911.75659375,"end":7943.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7943.667218750001,"end":7947.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7948.071593750001,"end":7951.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7951.919093750001,"end":7953.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7953.2353437500005,"end":7955.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7955.429093750001,"end":7955.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7955.44596875,"end":7955.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7955.46284375,"end":7955.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7955.96909375,"end":7956.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7956.036593750001,"end":7956.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7956.91409375,"end":7964.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7965.06471875,"end":7971.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7971.038468750001,"end":7971.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7972.624718750001,"end":7974.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7974.042218750001,"end":7980.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7981.062218750001,"end":7982.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7982.530343750001,"end":7986.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7987.66034375,"end":7988.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7988.571593750001,"end":7989.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7989.80346875,"end":7991.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7991.372843749999,"end":7992.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7993.65096875,"end":7996.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7997.093468750001,"end":7997.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7998.47721875,"end":7999.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7998.57846875,"end":7998.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7999.962218750001,"end":8001.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8001.970343750001,"end":8012.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8005.581593750001,"end":8006.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8010.81284375,"end":8015.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8015.82471875,"end":8020.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8021.106593750001,"end":8030.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8030.96159375,"end":8034.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8034.032843750001,"end":8034.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8034.218468750001,"end":8034.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8034.2353437500005,"end":8043.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8040.698468750001,"end":8060.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8060.475968750001,"end":8064.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8062.78784375,"end":8064.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8064.67784375,"end":8064.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8064.89721875,"end":8071.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8067.4959687499995,"end":8068.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8071.022843750001,"end":8072.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8071.46159375,"end":8071.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8071.967843750001,"end":8072.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8072.389718750001,"end":8072.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8072.474093750001,"end":8072.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8073.09846875,"end":8073.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8073.233468750001,"end":8078.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8078.59971875,"end":8092.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8078.63346875,"end":8078.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8093.432843750001,"end":8093.466593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8093.466593750001,"end":8113.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8113.024718750001,"end":8114.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8114.340968750001,"end":8129.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8129.8153437500005,"end":8139.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8140.497218750001,"end":8151.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8152.09034375,"end":8153.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8153.609093750001,"end":8160.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8160.932843750001,"end":8163.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8164.392218750001,"end":8167.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8168.22284375,"end":8177.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8177.72346875,"end":8177.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8178.76971875,"end":8180.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8180.74409375,"end":8186.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8186.92034375,"end":8188.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8189.31659375,"end":8191.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8192.13471875,"end":8193.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8194.31159375,"end":8208.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8209.58346875,"end":8215.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8216.434718750003,"end":8234.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8234.76096875,"end":8243.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8239.90784375,"end":8240.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8242.118468749999,"end":8253.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8254.36971875,"end":8256.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8257.457843750002,"end":8261.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8262.63846875,"end":8263.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8263.785968750002,"end":8287.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8288.32221875,"end":8288.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8289.21659375,"end":8294.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8294.954093750002,"end":8295.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8295.797843750002,"end":8297.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8298.71721875,"end":8301.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8301.02909375,"end":8301.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8301.383468750002,"end":8304.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8305.09596875,"end":8307.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8307.340343750002,"end":8314.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8314.44471875,"end":8314.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8315.187218750001,"end":8315.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8316.081593750001,"end":8316.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8317.81971875,"end":8332.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8335.234718750002,"end":8339.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8351.856593750003,"end":8353.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8356.429718750001,"end":8361.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8357.40846875,"end":8358.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8360.95221875,"end":8361.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8361.03659375,"end":8361.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8361.89721875,"end":8361.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8362.825343750003,"end":8363.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8364.597218750001,"end":8365.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8366.47034375,"end":8382.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8383.125968750002,"end":8388.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8388.981593750003,"end":8390.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8391.344093750002,"end":8393.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8394.36471875,"end":8410.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8410.379093750002,"end":8416.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8416.707218750002,"end":8417.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8418.64784375,"end":8419.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8420.11596875,"end":8426.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8426.680343750002,"end":8437.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8438.020343750002,"end":8442.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8442.27284375,"end":8445.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8446.12034375,"end":8451.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8452.39784375,"end":8453.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8454.675968750002,"end":8488.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8489.18534375,"end":8495.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8496.812843750002,"end":8512.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8512.92846875,"end":8516.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8518.19346875,"end":8529.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8529.719093750002,"end":8533.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8533.769093750001,"end":8535.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8535.43971875,"end":8558.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8559.21659375,"end":8591.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8592.055343750002,"end":8604.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8605.386593750001,"end":8616.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8616.675968750002,"end":8621.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8622.480968750002,"end":8624.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8624.590343750002,"end":8630.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8630.93534375,"end":8637.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8639.11971875,"end":8660.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8662.829093750002,"end":8678.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8678.067218750002,"end":8682.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8680.480343750001,"end":8690.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8686.015343750001,"end":8686.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8690.01471875,"end":8706.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8704.949093750001,"end":8705.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8706.02909375,"end":8710.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8709.690968750001,"end":8709.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8709.74159375,"end":8720.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8720.06909375,"end":8731.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8723.933468750001,"end":8724.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8730.312218750001,"end":8730.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8731.274093750002,"end":8735.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8733.535343750002,"end":8736.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8736.437843750002,"end":8744.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8742.765968750002,"end":8749.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8746.96784375,"end":8747.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8750.140343750001,"end":8750.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8751.23721875,"end":8757.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8754.477218750002,"end":8754.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8758.105343750001,"end":8759.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8759.910968750002,"end":8760.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8761.71659375,"end":8767.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8767.26846875,"end":8779.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8779.519718750002,"end":8784.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8781.86534375,"end":8782.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8785.274093750002,"end":8787.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8785.999718750001,"end":8786.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8788.14284375,"end":8795.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8795.78721875,"end":8799.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8799.668468750002,"end":8805.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8806.249718750001,"end":8809.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8810.35034375,"end":8815.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8815.328468750002,"end":8816.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8816.83034375,"end":8818.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8818.956593750001,"end":8822.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8822.669093750003,"end":8823.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8823.985343750002,"end":8824.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8824.930343750002,"end":8834.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8834.734718750002,"end":8847.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8849.09534375,"end":8849.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8849.83784375,"end":8862.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8862.308468750001,"end":8870.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8863.253468750001,"end":8863.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8870.25659375,"end":8878.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8876.297843750002,"end":8876.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8878.238468750002,"end":8884.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8884.90409375,"end":8887.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8888.22846875,"end":8892.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8892.312218750001,"end":8892.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8892.329093750002,"end":8894.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8894.438468750002,"end":8901.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8900.95221875,"end":8907.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8907.550343750001,"end":8907.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8907.617843750002,"end":8912.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8912.781593750002,"end":8917.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8914.60409375,"end":8914.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8917.253468750001,"end":8917.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8917.70909375,"end":8925.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8925.92721875,"end":8929.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8928.812843750002,"end":8929.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8929.555343750002,"end":8929.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8929.67346875,"end":8929.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8929.79159375,"end":8947.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8941.519718750002,"end":8941.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8944.50659375,"end":8944.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8944.540343750003,"end":8944.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8944.641593750002,"end":8944.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8948.219093750002,"end":8949.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8950.14284375,"end":8960.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8959.440968750001,"end":8972.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8972.65409375,"end":8979.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8980.72034375,"end":8994.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8982.070343750001,"end":8982.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8982.32346875,"end":8982.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8991.030968750001,"end":8992.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8992.667843750001,"end":8992.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8994.473468750002,"end":9005.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9005.35784375,"end":9012.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9013.12034375,"end":9021.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9022.55346875,"end":9025.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9025.624718750001,"end":9028.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9028.72971875,"end":9029.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9030.09659375,"end":9032.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9031.73346875,"end":9032.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9032.40846875,"end":9032.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9032.914718750002,"end":9045.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9039.37784375,"end":9040.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9043.91721875,"end":9053.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9053.738468750002,"end":9055.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9056.70846875,"end":9063.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9056.94471875,"end":9057.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9059.30721875,"end":9060.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9062.867843750002,"end":9070.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9070.815968750001,"end":9073.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9073.92096875,"end":9074.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9075.55784375,"end":9076.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9076.75596875,"end":9081.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9082.628468750001,"end":9083.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9083.03346875,"end":9089.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9090.930968750003,"end":9091.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9091.96034375,"end":9092.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9092.04471875,"end":9093.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9093.95159375,"end":9095.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9095.976593750001,"end":9095.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9095.993468750003,"end":9096.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9096.027218750001,"end":9097.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9097.63034375,"end":9098.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9099.95909375,"end":9103.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9109.965968750003,"end":9111.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9114.809093750002,"end":9116.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9121.289093750001,"end":9121.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9121.96409375,"end":9130.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9130.92471875,"end":9138.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9138.99096875,"end":9170.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9171.087218750003,"end":9174.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9174.765968750002,"end":9175.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9175.91346875,"end":9176.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9176.90909375,"end":9218.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9218.57346875,"end":9231.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9229.22159375,"end":9246.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9247.075343750003,"end":9251.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9252.019718750002,"end":9256.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9257.132843750001,"end":9276.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9276.72471875,"end":9278.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9278.04096875,"end":9289.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9290.27534375,"end":9301.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9301.46346875,"end":9302.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9303.134093750003,"end":9304.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9307.403468750003,"end":9312.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9310.99784375,"end":9346.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9347.363468750002,"end":9357.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9357.57284375,"end":9359.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9359.15909375,"end":9359.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9359.969093750002,"end":9360.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9361.808468750001,"end":9364.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9365.47034375,"end":9366.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9366.65159375,"end":9379.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9379.999718750001,"end":9382.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9382.649093750002,"end":9407.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9407.691593750002,"end":9408.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9408.383468750002,"end":9409.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9410.18909375,"end":9411.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9411.606593750003,"end":9415.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9415.62284375,"end":9417.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9418.339718750001,"end":9419.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9419.94284375,"end":9421.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9421.292843750001,"end":9423.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9423.621593750002,"end":9433.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9433.24034375,"end":9436.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9437.290343750003,"end":9449.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9449.44034375,"end":9453.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9454.367843750002,"end":9466.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9466.602218750002,"end":9482.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9483.22409375,"end":9484.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9485.24909375,"end":9486.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9487.39221875,"end":9492.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9492.79221875,"end":9493.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9494.395343750002,"end":9516.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9516.83909375,"end":9522.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9523.133468750002,"end":9524.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9524.652218750001,"end":9527.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9528.70221875,"end":9530.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9530.49096875,"end":9531.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9531.891593750002,"end":9536.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9532.16159375,"end":9532.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9532.465343750002,"end":9532.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9534.08534375,"end":9538.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9537.055343750002,"end":9540.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9538.995968750001,"end":9539.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9539.82284375,"end":9540.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9540.51471875,"end":9540.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9540.76784375,"end":9542.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9542.387843750003,"end":9543.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9543.36659375,"end":9545.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9545.864093750002,"end":9551.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9550.437218750001,"end":9550.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9551.820968750002,"end":9552.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9553.035968750002,"end":9556.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9556.782218750002,"end":9556.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9557.457218750002,"end":9557.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9557.71034375,"end":9560.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9559.988468750002,"end":9562.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9562.43534375,"end":9565.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9565.472843750002,"end":9568.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9569.60721875,"end":9589.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9590.22846875,"end":9592.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9592.91159375,"end":9629.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9630.492218750001,"end":9640.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9641.54534375,"end":9650.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9652.04159375,"end":9653.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9655.703468750002,"end":9670.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9655.821593750003,"end":9656.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9662.031593750002,"end":9662.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9662.74034375,"end":9662.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9662.85846875,"end":9663.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9668.899718750003,"end":9669.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9671.110343750002,"end":9675.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9675.379718750002,"end":9678.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9679.14284375,"end":9683.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9684.390968750002,"end":9685.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9686.21346875,"end":9695.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9696.49034375,"end":9699.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9699.66284375,"end":9706.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9707.003468750001,"end":9708.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9708.72471875,"end":9709.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9710.19284375,"end":9712.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9713.230343750001,"end":9717.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9717.90471875,"end":9724.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9724.671593750001,"end":9727.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9727.82721875,"end":9730.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9731.35409375,"end":9736.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9736.602218750002,"end":9744.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9744.75284375,"end":9752.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9752.66721875,"end":9759.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9759.77159375,"end":9781.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9781.97909375,"end":9782.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9782.62034375,"end":9783.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9783.700343750003,"end":9792.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9793.36971875,"end":9798.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9799.242218750001,"end":9800.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9800.79471875,"end":9806.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9806.515343750001,"end":9809.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9809.738468750002,"end":9811.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9811.93221875,"end":9821.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9822.242843750002,"end":9826.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9826.52909375,"end":9827.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9827.676593750002,"end":9829.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9830.02221875,"end":9833.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9835.371593750002,"end":9851.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9851.58846875,"end":9868.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9868.81784375,"end":9919.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9920.489093750002,"end":9927.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9927.37409375,"end":9952.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9953.63159375,"end":9954.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9954.77909375,"end":9955.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9955.386593750001,"end":9955.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9955.63971875,"end":9958.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9958.980968750002,"end":9960.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9960.246593750002,"end":9960.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9960.28034375,"end":9960.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9960.38159375,"end":9963.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9965.106593750003,"end":9965.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9965.950343750003,"end":9966.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9966.405968750001,"end":9968.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9969.696593750003,"end":9977.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9982.386593750001,"end":9986.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9992.477843750003,"end":9992.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9992.96721875,"end":10030.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10031.15534375,"end":10038.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10038.985343750002,"end":10041.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10042.12409375,"end":10069.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10070.254718750002,"end":10072.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10073.629718750002,"end":10079.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10077.797843750002,"end":10078.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10079.384093750003,"end":10079.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10079.417843750001,"end":10101.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10079.87346875,"end":10080.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10101.254093750002,"end":10109.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10110.36659375,"end":10126.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10126.44846875,"end":10127.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10127.730968750002,"end":10128.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10129.519718750002,"end":10130.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10130.903468750003,"end":10138.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10138.547843750002,"end":10142.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10143.070343750001,"end":10146.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10146.546593750001,"end":10148.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10149.145343750002,"end":10151.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10152.030968750001,"end":10155.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10155.96284375,"end":10157.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10157.39721875,"end":10158.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10158.899093750002,"end":10164.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10165.24409375,"end":10165.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10166.290343750003,"end":10171.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10172.53409375,"end":10174.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10175.149718750003,"end":10178.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10178.828468750002,"end":10184.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10184.54909375,"end":10194.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10195.855343750001,"end":10201.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10202.082218750002,"end":10205.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10207.58346875,"end":10209.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10209.777218750001,"end":10214.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10214.805968750003,"end":10216.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10217.30346875,"end":10221.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10222.36596875,"end":10223.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10224.289718750002,"end":10224.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10225.62284375,"end":10226.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10226.753468750001,"end":10230.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10230.820343750001,"end":10232.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10232.81159375,"end":10235.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10236.22034375,"end":10237.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10237.671593750001,"end":10238.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10238.464718750001,"end":10239.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10239.679718750001,"end":10241.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10241.72159375,"end":10242.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10243.67909375,"end":10245.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10246.88534375,"end":10248.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10249.754093750002,"end":10250.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10250.969093750002,"end":10257.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10257.90471875,"end":10261.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10262.207843750002,"end":10262.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10263.675968750002,"end":10264.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10265.110343750002,"end":10268.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10268.434718750003,"end":10269.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10269.93659375,"end":10275.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10276.09596875,"end":10291.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10291.28346875,"end":10293.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10293.64596875,"end":10318.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10303.433468750001,"end":10303.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10304.024093750002,"end":10304.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10317.97971875,"end":10324.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10324.83096875,"end":10327.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10327.952843750001,"end":10333.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10334.078468750002,"end":10336.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10336.59284375,"end":10338.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10338.28034375,"end":10348.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10339.360343750002,"end":10340.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10348.962218750003,"end":10370.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10367.54159375,"end":10368.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10371.051593750002,"end":10375.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10375.270343750002,"end":10377.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10376.856593750003,"end":10392.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10379.97846875,"end":10382.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10392.53346875,"end":10393.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10394.06909375,"end":10397.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10397.66346875,"end":10399.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10398.91221875,"end":10399.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10399.739093750002,"end":10401.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10401.747218750003,"end":10401.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10401.76409375,"end":10402.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10402.101593750001,"end":10404.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10404.91971875,"end":10406.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10407.113468750002,"end":10409.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10407.14721875,"end":10407.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10408.39596875,"end":10408.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10409.10471875,"end":10413.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10413.340343750002,"end":10425.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10414.082843750002,"end":10414.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10421.659718750001,"end":10421.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10424.71409375,"end":10427.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10428.207218750002,"end":10429.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10428.426593750002,"end":10431.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10430.535968750002,"end":10433.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10433.590343750002,"end":10441.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10441.94346875,"end":10443.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10443.83346875,"end":10447.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10447.714718750001,"end":10484.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10486.24034375,"end":10498.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10498.559093750002,"end":10499.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10499.234093750001,"end":10502.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10502.929718750001,"end":10507.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10507.722218750001,"end":10509.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10510.03409375,"end":10514.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10514.92784375,"end":10537.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10537.82721875,"end":10540.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10541.08409375,"end":10555.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10556.507843750001,"end":10578.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10578.344093750002,"end":10581.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10582.360343750002,"end":10586.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10586.44409375,"end":10589.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10586.832218750002,"end":10587.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10588.317218750002,"end":10588.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10589.75159375,"end":10592.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10592.519093750001,"end":10599.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10600.973468750002,"end":10604.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10604.922218750002,"end":10613.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10613.29221875,"end":10613.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10614.08534375,"end":10617.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10622.50596875,"end":10623.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10942.60784375,"end":10949.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10950.89346875,"end":10955.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10960.562843750002,"end":10960.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10960.57971875,"end":10961.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10960.613468750002,"end":10961.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10961.96346875,"end":10962.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10962.63846875,"end":10963.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10963.634093750003,"end":10967.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10968.780968750001,"end":10969.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10969.81034375,"end":10993.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10975.497218750003,"end":10976.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10993.40159375,"end":10999.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10999.71284375,"end":11002.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11003.003468750001,"end":11003.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11003.03721875,"end":11004.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11005.19721875,"end":11014.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11015.91284375,"end":11016.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11016.95909375,"end":11055.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11057.77971875,"end":11072.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11071.12784375,"end":11097.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11077.624718750001,"end":11077.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11077.75971875,"end":11077.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11077.793468750002,"end":11077.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11097.672218750002,"end":11103.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11104.574093750001,"end":11105.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11107.695968750002,"end":11108.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11108.99534375,"end":11109.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11109.180968750003,"end":11109.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11109.636593750001,"end":11109.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11109.974093750003,"end":11111.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11111.324093750001,"end":11111.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11111.762843750003,"end":11111.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11111.83034375,"end":11112.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11112.505343750003,"end":11115.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11116.57221875,"end":11123.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11124.047843750002,"end":11124.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11124.55409375,"end":11125.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11125.90409375,"end":11126.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11126.96721875,"end":11132.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11132.55284375,"end":11138.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11139.31971875,"end":11141.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11142.812843750002,"end":11147.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11147.89221875,"end":11149.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11149.714718750001,"end":11154.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11155.317218750002,"end":11160.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11161.054718750001,"end":11163.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11164.04159375,"end":11170.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11171.83784375,"end":11174.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11175.70221875,"end":11176.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11177.474093750003,"end":11178.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11179.144718750002,"end":11179.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11180.579093750002,"end":11182.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11183.44784375,"end":11184.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11185.08471875,"end":11187.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11188.375343750002,"end":11190.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11190.72096875,"end":11191.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11192.070968750002,"end":11195.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11195.749718750001,"end":11204.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11204.946593750003,"end":11206.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11207.089718750001,"end":11209.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11209.97534375,"end":11219.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11219.88096875,"end":11223.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11224.67346875,"end":11229.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11230.630343750003,"end":11241.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11240.18159375,"end":11243.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11243.18534375,"end":11243.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11244.40034375,"end":11246.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11247.72471875,"end":11250.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11249.766593750002,"end":11257.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11258.406593750002,"end":11260.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11262.06846875,"end":11263.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11264.734718750002,"end":11268.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11269.645343750002,"end":11270.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11271.88971875,"end":11275.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11276.56409375,"end":11278.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11278.53846875,"end":11279.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11279.567843750003,"end":11280.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11280.495968750001,"end":11286.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11287.65096875,"end":11290.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11291.110343750002,"end":11292.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11292.949718750002,"end":11294.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11296.13909375,"end":11298.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11299.26096875,"end":11301.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11301.910343750002,"end":11307.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11308.390343750001,"end":11313.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11314.617218750001,"end":11315.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11315.86596875,"end":11324.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11325.805343750002,"end":11328.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11329.349093750003,"end":11330.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11332.555343750002,"end":11333.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11335.32284375,"end":11336.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11336.942843750003,"end":11348.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11348.92409375,"end":11349.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11350.628468750001,"end":11351.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11352.535343750002,"end":11356.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11357.496593750002,"end":11370.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11372.65034375,"end":11375.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11375.586593750002,"end":11376.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11377.25721875,"end":11382.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11382.82596875,"end":11383.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11384.09159375,"end":11385.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11385.52596875,"end":11387.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11388.58034375,"end":11389.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11391.921593750001,"end":11407.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11407.868468750003,"end":11412.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11413.352843750003,"end":11417.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11418.43221875,"end":11419.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11421.28409375,"end":11423.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11424.54096875,"end":11425.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11426.093468750001,"end":11426.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11428.067843750003,"end":11429.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11429.839718750001,"end":11431.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11432.370968750001,"end":11435.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11436.066593750002,"end":11439.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11440.454093750002,"end":11442.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11443.57596875,"end":11448.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11448.790343750003,"end":11450.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11450.730968750002,"end":11452.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11453.582843750002,"end":11455.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11456.67096875,"end":11460.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11461.395968750003,"end":11468.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11469.47909375,"end":11470.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11474.052218750003,"end":11474.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11474.929718750001,"end":11476.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11476.54971875,"end":11477.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11478.726593750001,"end":11484.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11485.206593750001,"end":11486.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11487.164093750001,"end":11491.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11492.817218750002,"end":11495.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11495.78721875,"end":11496.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11497.15409375,"end":11501.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11501.96346875,"end":11507.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11507.414093750001,"end":11508.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11509.995968750001,"end":11511.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11512.274093750002,"end":11513.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11513.99534375,"end":11514.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11516.020343750002,"end":11518.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11518.399718750003,"end":11524.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11525.41971875,"end":11530.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11531.984093750001,"end":11534.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11534.86971875,"end":11539.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11539.847843750002,"end":11543.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11544.167843750001,"end":11550.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11550.74909375,"end":11552.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11554.22534375,"end":11569.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11569.649093750002,"end":11574.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11573.98596875,"end":11582.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11580.516593750002,"end":11585.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11586.051593750002,"end":11587.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11588.76846875,"end":11592.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11593.594718750002,"end":11594.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11594.438468750002,"end":11595.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11595.653468750003,"end":11595.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11595.87284375,"end":11597.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11596.699718750002,"end":11596.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11597.864093750002,"end":11598.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11599.973468750002,"end":11602.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11602.555343750002,"end":11602.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11603.179718750001,"end":11605.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11606.90909375,"end":11609.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11610.63846875,"end":11611.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11611.60034375,"end":11612.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11612.511593750001,"end":11616.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11617.08471875,"end":11618.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11619.14346875,"end":11623.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11624.847218750001,"end":11625.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11626.83846875,"end":11628.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11629.707218750002,"end":11630.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11630.80409375,"end":11640.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11631.344093750002,"end":11631.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11641.148468750001,"end":11643.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11644.28721875,"end":11645.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11646.49784375,"end":11648.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11649.737843750001,"end":11651.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11652.235343750002,"end":11654.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11654.95221875,"end":11658.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11659.42409375,"end":11660.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11661.31409375,"end":11667.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11667.574718750002,"end":11667.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11667.60846875,"end":11667.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11668.90784375,"end":11669.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11670.257843750001,"end":11672.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11672.65409375,"end":11674.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11673.76784375,"end":11674.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11674.476593750001,"end":11674.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11674.527218750001,"end":11674.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11674.577843750001,"end":11674.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11674.594718750002,"end":11674.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11674.628468750001,"end":11674.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11674.83096875,"end":11674.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11674.898468750001,"end":11675.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11675.421593750001,"end":11675.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11675.691593750002,"end":11676.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11675.72534375,"end":11675.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11677.04159375,"end":11678.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11678.864093750002,"end":11681.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11682.20534375,"end":11684.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11685.42846875,"end":11700.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11700.902843750002,"end":11704.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11705.121593750002,"end":11708.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11709.036593750003,"end":11712.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11713.00221875,"end":11713.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11713.96409375,"end":11721.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11721.304718750001,"end":11726.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11727.430343750002,"end":11729.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11729.894093750001,"end":11738.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11739.32721875,"end":11743.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11743.259093750003,"end":11745.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11746.634093750003,"end":11752.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11752.97909375,"end":11756.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11757.636593750001,"end":11761.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11762.56409375,"end":11763.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11763.99846875,"end":11766.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11768.132843750001,"end":11768.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11770.59659375,"end":11777.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11788.58534375,"end":11788.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11803.199093750001,"end":11806.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11809.51034375,"end":11810.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11811.332843750002,"end":11811.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11815.09596875,"end":11817.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11817.47534375,"end":11827.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11828.950343750003,"end":11836.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11836.66221875,"end":11839.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11841.015968750002,"end":11844.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11845.386593750001,"end":11846.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11846.972843750002,"end":11848.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11849.571593750003,"end":11851.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11854.48221875,"end":11858.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11859.44346875,"end":11862.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11862.44721875,"end":11864.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11865.653468750003,"end":11868.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11869.011593750001,"end":11875.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11877.65159375,"end":11879.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11880.351593750001,"end":11881.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11883.000968750002,"end":11885.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11885.34659375,"end":11886.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11887.55721875,"end":11888.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11888.92409375,"end":11893.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11895.640343750001,"end":11896.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11897.344718750002,"end":11899.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11901.10784375,"end":11902.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11902.99784375,"end":11903.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11904.989093750002,"end":11905.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11905.05659375,"end":11905.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11905.07346875,"end":11906.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11906.11971875,"end":11908.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11906.27159375,"end":11906.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11907.773468750001,"end":11907.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11908.364093750002,"end":11908.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11908.38096875,"end":11908.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11908.39784375,"end":11908.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11908.75221875,"end":11909.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11910.051593750002,"end":11915.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11918.23596875,"end":11919.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11919.974093750003,"end":11921.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11921.492843750002,"end":11923.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11926.31909375,"end":11927.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11928.917843750001,"end":11930.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11930.90909375,"end":11932.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11934.149093750002,"end":11934.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11934.925343750001,"end":11935.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11936.59596875,"end":11938.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11939.17784375,"end":11946.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11945.92784375,"end":11953.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11954.280968750001,"end":11957.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11959.360343750002,"end":11961.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11962.11096875,"end":11979.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11964.55784375,"end":11964.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11964.64221875,"end":11964.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11964.96284375,"end":11965.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11979.74534375,"end":11982.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11981.06159375,"end":11984.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11984.63909375,"end":11985.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11986.242218750001,"end":11988.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11988.722843750002,"end":11990.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11990.849093750003,"end":11999.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11999.472218750001,"end":12000.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12000.82221875,"end":12005.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12005.665343750003,"end":12006.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12006.964718750001,"end":12006.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12007.20096875,"end":12011.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12007.96034375,"end":12008.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12008.90534375,"end":12009.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12010.289093750001,"end":12012.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12013.91721875,"end":12014.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12016.414718750002,"end":12017.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12018.86159375,"end":12020.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12020.70096875,"end":12031.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12021.325343750003,"end":12021.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12031.19721875,"end":12035.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12036.090968750003,"end":12036.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12036.833468750003,"end":12044.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12039.398468750001,"end":12044.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12044.44409375,"end":12044.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12045.22034375,"end":12045.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12046.06409375,"end":12048.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12050.14784375,"end":12053.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12053.82659375,"end":12059.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12059.715968750003,"end":12061.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12059.749718750001,"end":12059.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12059.85096875,"end":12060.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12062.601593750001,"end":12077.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12070.87034375,"end":12071.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12073.941593750002,"end":12076.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12077.60346875,"end":12083.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12083.374718750001,"end":12086.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12085.88909375,"end":12087.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12087.72846875,"end":12096.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12093.73596875,"end":12094.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12095.625968750002,"end":12104.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12100.418468750002,"end":12100.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12100.97534375,"end":12102.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12105.71721875,"end":12107.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12107.489093750002,"end":12107.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12107.52284375,"end":12107.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12108.434093750002,"end":12111.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12111.03284375,"end":12111.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12112.04534375,"end":12112.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12112.062218750001,"end":12113.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12113.14221875,"end":12115.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12116.09534375,"end":12144.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12145.20471875,"end":12145.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12146.21721875,"end":12166.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12160.594718750002,"end":12160.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12160.72971875,"end":12160.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12166.804718750001,"end":12167.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12167.395343750002,"end":12180.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12172.94721875,"end":12173.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12180.692843750003,"end":12185.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12185.333468750003,"end":12186.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12186.261593750001,"end":12190.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12191.10471875,"end":12204.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12197.85471875,"end":12198.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12205.17846875,"end":12206.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12206.427218750003,"end":12206.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12207.473468750002,"end":12208.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12208.18221875,"end":12210.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12209.65034375,"end":12213.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12211.18596875,"end":12211.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12212.02971875,"end":12226.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12226.727843750003,"end":12226.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12226.761593750001,"end":12229.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12229.90034375,"end":12229.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12230.06909375,"end":12231.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12232.144718750002,"end":12234.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12235.739093750002,"end":12237.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12237.949718750002,"end":12249.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12249.644093750001,"end":12249.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12249.72846875,"end":12249.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12249.89721875,"end":12249.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12249.981593750003,"end":12249.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12249.99846875,"end":12250.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12250.032218750002,"end":12275.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12267.76784375,"end":12267.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12267.801593750002,"end":12267.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12267.97034375,"end":12268.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12276.762218750002,"end":12278.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12280.15409375,"end":12287.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12288.50721875,"end":12289.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12290.71784375,"end":12291.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12291.03846875,"end":12291.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12291.409718750001,"end":12291.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12291.46034375,"end":12291.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12291.59534375,"end":12291.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12291.61221875,"end":12291.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12293.35034375,"end":12300.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12299.47596875,"end":12315.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12317.71784375,"end":12323.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12323.99534375,"end":12326.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12327.066593750002,"end":12331.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12331.909718750001,"end":12333.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12334.829093750002,"end":12335.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12336.769718750002,"end":12342.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12342.945968750002,"end":12345.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12346.320968750002,"end":12350.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12351.805343750002,"end":12353.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12352.29471875,"end":12353.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12353.695343750001,"end":12354.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12354.015968750002,"end":12354.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12354.505343750003,"end":12354.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12355.58534375,"end":12357.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12357.94784375,"end":12369.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12371.34659375,"end":12382.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12383.05784375,"end":12384.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12384.94784375,"end":12388.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12389.284718750001,"end":12397.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12397.87409375,"end":12401.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12401.805968750003,"end":12402.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12402.97034375,"end":12403.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12404.62409375,"end":12405.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12406.817843750003,"end":12407.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12408.67409375,"end":12411.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12411.964718750001,"end":12416.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12419.254718750002,"end":12424.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12425.22846875,"end":12432.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12432.87284375,"end":12437.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12437.800343750001,"end":12444.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12445.832843750002,"end":12447.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12447.95909375,"end":12448.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12448.988468750002,"end":12452.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12453.88221875,"end":12459.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12460.058468750001,"end":12467.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12468.867218750001,"end":12472.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12473.254718750002,"end":12475.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12475.769093750001,"end":12531.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12531.33846875,"end":12537.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12537.91971875,"end":12546.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12547.234718750002,"end":12561.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12561.96659375,"end":12563.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12564.66659375,"end":12570.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12572.63159375,"end":12576.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12577.64346875,"end":12594.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12598.534718750001,"end":12599.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12600.47534375,"end":12601.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12602.129093750002,"end":12602.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12604.137218750002,"end":12610.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12610.566593750002,"end":12611.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12610.667843750001,"end":12612.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12613.317218750002,"end":12615.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12616.03409375,"end":12618.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12619.054718750001,"end":12623.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12625.68659375,"end":12626.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12625.872218750003,"end":12626.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12628.63971875,"end":12628.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12630.58034375,"end":12631.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12632.36909375,"end":12644.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12644.755343750003,"end":12651.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12651.37034375,"end":12662.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12663.43596875,"end":12679.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12680.31096875,"end":12684.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12684.445343750001,"end":12781.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12785.813468750002,"end":12802.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12802.097843750002,"end":12808.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12808.594718750002,"end":12833.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12809.92784375,"end":12810.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12815.05784375,"end":12818.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12833.755343750003,"end":12840.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12841.09596875,"end":12849.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12849.887843750003,"end":12853.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12854.12346875,"end":12855.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12854.781593750002,"end":12855.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12855.270968750003,"end":12855.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12855.321593750003,"end":12855.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12855.372218750003,"end":12855.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12855.422843750002,"end":12855.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12855.96284375,"end":12896.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12858.91596875,"end":12858.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12858.98346875,"end":12859.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12859.08471875,"end":12859.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12864.012218750002,"end":12865.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12873.22596875,"end":12874.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12875.53784375,"end":12876.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12876.719093750002,"end":12877.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12878.946593750003,"end":12879.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12897.407843750003,"end":12917.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12917.387843750003,"end":12917.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12917.860343750002,"end":12918.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12917.97846875,"end":12918.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12918.40034375,"end":12918.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12918.805343750002,"end":12936.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12937.18221875,"end":12937.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12937.620968750001,"end":12939.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12939.257843750001,"end":12939.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12939.93284375,"end":12944.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12944.99534375,"end":12945.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12945.062843750002,"end":12947.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12946.952843750001,"end":12947.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12947.20596875,"end":12948.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12948.74159375,"end":12948.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12948.960968750001,"end":12954.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12954.884093750003,"end":12957.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12957.567218750002,"end":12967.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12967.70909375,"end":12971.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12971.438468750002,"end":12975.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12974.914718750002,"end":12985.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12985.731593750003,"end":13014.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13011.989093750002,"end":13013.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13014.43596875,"end":13020.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13020.325343750003,"end":13020.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13020.375968750002,"end":13020.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13020.66284375,"end":13026.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13027.075343750003,"end":13035.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13034.753468750001,"end":13043.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13036.05284375,"end":13036.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13041.317843750003,"end":13048.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13045.43534375,"end":13045.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13045.722218750001,"end":13046.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13046.02596875,"end":13046.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13046.17784375,"end":13046.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13047.105968750002,"end":13047.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13047.257843750001,"end":13047.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13048.320968750002,"end":13048.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13050.480968750002,"end":13051.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13051.71284375,"end":13053.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13053.434093750002,"end":13057.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13058.378468750001,"end":13062.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13063.15409375,"end":13069.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13070.309093750002,"end":13083.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13086.30659375,"end":13088.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13088.80409375,"end":13089.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13089.73221875,"end":13091.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13092.668468750002,"end":13102.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13102.320968750002,"end":13102.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13102.574093750001,"end":13110.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13111.720343750003,"end":13121.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13121.457218750002,"end":13126.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13127.009093750003,"end":13127.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13127.44784375,"end":13131.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13132.442843750003,"end":13136.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13138.14659375,"end":13142.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13143.90096875,"end":13144.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13143.934718750003,"end":13145.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13145.655968750001,"end":13153.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13149.081593750001,"end":13149.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13153.35096875,"end":13158.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13158.126593750003,"end":13159.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13159.93221875,"end":13167.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13166.47971875,"end":13166.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13168.15034375,"end":13186.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13171.96409375,"end":13172.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13176.85784375,"end":13177.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13177.043468750002,"end":13177.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13177.094093750002,"end":13177.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13186.071593750003,"end":13187.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13186.72971875,"end":13189.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13190.442218750002,"end":13191.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13190.93159375,"end":13215.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13215.34971875,"end":13215.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13215.51846875,"end":13241.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13242.14721875,"end":13252.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13253.453468750002,"end":13254.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13255.259093750003,"end":13263.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13264.489718750003,"end":13267.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13266.86909375,"end":13273.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13269.94034375,"end":13270.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13273.63596875,"end":13273.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13273.652843750002,"end":13275.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13273.66971875,"end":13274.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13274.715968750003,"end":13290.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13280.925968750002,"end":13280.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13280.942843750003,"end":13280.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13280.993468750003,"end":13281.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13281.145343750002,"end":13281.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13289.734718750002,"end":13326.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13293.29534375,"end":13293.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13305.73221875,"end":13305.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13305.884093750003,"end":13306.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13306.22159375,"end":13306.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13317.409718750001,"end":13317.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13317.46034375,"end":13317.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13317.96659375,"end":13318.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13327.46721875,"end":13338.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13327.51784375,"end":13328.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13328.024093750002,"end":13329.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13329.070343750001,"end":13329.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13338.790343750003,"end":13349.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13339.195343750001,"end":13339.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13349.77596875,"end":13379.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13379.914718750002,"end":13433.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13433.94846875,"end":13447.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13448.460968750001,"end":13449.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13449.051593750002,"end":13452.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13453.08471875,"end":13453.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13453.23659375,"end":13453.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13453.45596875,"end":13453.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13453.45596875,"end":13497.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13497.90471875,"end":13503.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13503.81096875,"end":13508.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13508.485343750002,"end":13511.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13510.155968750001,"end":13510.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13511.438468750002,"end":13514.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13514.30721875,"end":13523.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13518.20534375,"end":13518.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13521.816593750002,"end":13522.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13522.10346875,"end":13522.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13522.339718750001,"end":13522.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13522.37346875,"end":13522.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13522.69409375,"end":13523.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13523.453468750002,"end":13524.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13524.027218750001,"end":13524.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13525.74846875,"end":13532.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13533.156593750002,"end":13537.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13537.965968750003,"end":13542.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13543.332218750002,"end":13553.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13553.305343750002,"end":13557.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13562.13096875,"end":13562.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13564.83096875,"end":13566.974093750003}],"whisperx":[{"start":1697.128,"end":1717.965,"text":"好 現在繼續開會喔那我們首先先介紹道場委員黃國昌委員已經應邀列席的官員那麼今天主要是考試院的業務報告所以歡迎秘書長 林秘書長還有權敘處的工科藝工處長秘書處的吳瑞蘭處長"},{"start":1719.933,"end":1730.958,"text":"還有會計師的蘇芳玉主任然後考選部的劉孟琦部長群衆部的聖誕節部長以及保訓會的蔡主委謝謝"},{"start":1734.502,"end":1760.1,"text":"那麼其餘的介紹 其餘的這個關於我們就不再逐一介紹並列入公報那麼本日的議程主要是邀請考試院的秘書長 考選部部長 循序部部長以及公務人員保障及培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫並備質詢那麼我們就現在先進行報告那麼因為今天口頭報告的機關代表只有四位每發言的時間就每位"},{"start":1760.78,"end":1766.965,"text":"三分鐘為限 麻煩請控制這個時間首先先請劉秉樹長進行報告 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家早安今天很榮幸的李爾錫貴委員會來報告考試院的業務概況對於貴院委員過去對本院的各項預算法案和施政的支持跟指教也藉此機會表達由衷的感謝"},{"start":1784.679,"end":1813.145,"text":"周榮憲院長所領導的第十四屆考試院雖然就任還不滿一年但是有賴於團隊合作還有跟各界的支持跟敦促我們已經積極地推動多項考全保訓業務的改革和精進首先是強化公部門霸凌防治跟安全衛生的防護感謝各位的支持在上個會期通過了保障法部分條文及考機法第十二條修正案強化了公務體系對於職場霸凌的防治規範也增訂了相關的法則"},{"start":1814.345,"end":1836.41,"text":"本院也同步修訂了安慰辦法配套增訂了職場霸凌的申訴跟處理的專節高風險職務的安全衛生防護專節還有監督檢查的專章有更完整的機制來強化各公務機關的安全防護作為來保障同仁的安全與健康其次是友善職場的法規修訂我們修訂了公務員請假規則增訂身心調試假將配合"},{"start":1839.791,"end":1865.294,"text":"10月10号的世界心理健康日也就是明天起实施我们修订了任用法实行细则放宽了指名商调的限制以保障公务员的任调权益我们修订了公务人员激励办法强化及时奖励并且提高奖金此外今天的考试院院会也预定要通过留职停薪办法的修正草案放宽预算价申请限制使更多公务人员能够兼顾职场与家庭"},{"start":1866.115,"end":1884.891,"text":"第三是纜財跟流財機制的強化我們調升了中央四級機關主管職等合理反映他們的職責程度以有效的激勵及留用人才我們也調整了官等職等員和配置增加了中高階人力禁用的空間來滿足機關用人實際的需求我們也刪除了"},{"start":1885.652,"end":1908.179,"text":"警察跟海巡人員考試的身高限制來廣納人才投入公務工作有關考試院未來的工作重點我們會持續的強化落實職場霸凌防制還有安全衛生防護機制的以及訓練另外我們會推動考選法規與時俱進以滿足公務機關用人的需要會優化電子證書作業的流程來提升服務效率跟安全性"},{"start":1908.959,"end":1925.155,"text":"并且持续的扩大推动电脑化测验来符合考生的需求精进公务员自主投资的业务来提升作业效率至于本院的代审法案去年韩清审议的协会法修正草案放宽公务员结社权跟协商权并且提升协会功能也请贵院能够会以支持"},{"start":1925.936,"end":1946.208,"text":"以上幾就近期重要業務執行情形跟未來工作重點提出簡要的報告那本院會持續使考選方式與時俱進切合青年世代需要也會配合國家發展跟社會的變遷來持續精進人事法治建構友善的工作環境以吸引更多優秀人才加入公部門敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝好 謝謝那麼接下來我們再請考選部的劉部長報告"},{"start":1959.367,"end":1978.996,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早感謝大院委員對考選部的支持與協助使各項業務得以順利推展2014年考選部預定辦理20項國家考試截至9月已舉行15項考試其餘5項考試均已預定期程籌辦中目前公務人員考試入局約1萬4千人專機人員考試榜試及及格約2萬8千人"},{"start":1984.438,"end":2002.971,"text":"此外,本部因應用人需求研修考選法則並定期建置與更新題庫試題,辦理測驗技術發展相關委託研究案,並持續擴大電腦化測驗試用類科,今年7月已納入語言治療師及聽力師考試,同時擴充電腦化測驗作業容量,今年新增944席。"},{"start":2004.592,"end":2028.639,"text":"全國電腦化測驗作為總市與擴增接近18000席另外本部持續邀請用能機關協力致大學宣導國家考試並協助大學檢視學校課程與國家考試科目對應情形為提供應考人良好應試品質本部也持續完善國家考場應試環境及設施在115年施政重點部分明年預定舉辦20項考試"},{"start":2030.74,"end":2051.873,"text":"本部將依考試期程穩健辦理事務工作並持續配合用人需求滾動研修考選法制同時善用院際溝通平台強化考訓用聯繫及合作以及持續檢討高普考試部分類科硬式科目內涵及硬式科目數本部也將根據充實並精進試題品質"},{"start":2053.914,"end":2079.655,"text":"包含持續建置更新題庫及推動測驗發展並執行護理師國家考試體育經濟計畫在推動國家考試數位轉型部分將持續偵辦電腦化測驗並擴展試用內科穩定擴充電腦化測驗容量建構行動化電腦市場並強化偶發事件因應助理措施另外強化國家考試宣導策略本部將積極推動大學國考課程地圖促進教考連結"},{"start":2081.617,"end":2099.051,"text":"以上報告最後本部積極打造多元化應試環境及優化考場設施妥善執行國家考試為常及數位多功能考場大樓興建計畫並整建修繕國家考場環境設施以上報告敬請各位委員繼續給予本部支持與指教各項施政重點的詳細內容也請參閱書面報告 謝謝"},{"start":2105.592,"end":2110.324,"text":"好 謝謝 那接下來我們請局序部 施部長報告"},{"start":2117.028,"end":2139.688,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安謝謝各位委員對本部的支持以下報告今年本部主要的業務執行說明我想我們做了不少事情都在書面報告裡面有我想第一項我們也提出考記法來修正案這配合保障法所以只要是違反重大服務紀律的這個者都可以作為一次計量大過免職的一個條件"},{"start":2140.368,"end":2167.161,"text":"第二件事情這是對所有的中央跟地方政府的公務同仁非常重要的我們做一次通盤性的所有有關各機關的這個職稱跟官等的這個植物配置準則的一個修正這個已經發布然後我們也根據這個也做了未來要繼續做這個植物列等的一個配置的一個修正植物列等的一個修正那這植物列等的一個修正對於中央跟地方的建任職等的同仁來講是一個非常重要的一個修訂"},{"start":2168.522,"end":2183.069,"text":"那第四件事情呢我想我們修正了這個請假規則包括剛剛我們藝術館講的包括身心調適假事實上還有其他的一些項目都放進來包括說比方出任的公務人員我們就有三天的休假我想這次都是對於創造一個友善的工作職場"},{"start":2184.329,"end":2206.959,"text":"所做的減價規則的一個修正我們修正的指明商調了一個規定指明商調我們平衡的公務同仁需求還有傭人機關的需求做一個適當的放寬的修正當然我們修訂了激勵辦法事實上我們希望讓各機關有更及時的工具能夠獎勵他的優秀同仁"},{"start":2209.66,"end":2234.151,"text":"我們也修正了流子停薪辦法我想就是我們三組育嬰留孫的這個停薪那個但出了一個規定所以未來不需要一定要父母或者是這個祖母雙方各自反正大家都可以我們放寬了自省 零用了一些極限的一個限制那事實上我們也做了聘僱人員離子給予辦法的一個修正讓他的這個離子的一個金額能夠更高"},{"start":2235.311,"end":2259.734,"text":"事實上我們部裡面當然有很多例行性的工作我們繼續辦理了到目前為止已經辦了43萬一件的全省案件這個是很大的一個工作量我們也持續監督我的基金管理局做好所有相關的基金的投資效益也都大概都維持蠻穩定的未來我們會繼續檢討所有相關重要人事法制的合一性我們希望"},{"start":2260.919,"end":2290.026,"text":"各式各樣的人事法制能夠同時兼顧政府整體機關管理跟公務人員的需求的恆平性第二個我們對於這個所屬的這個特輔基金儲基金還有公保準備金我們還是秉持著穩健投資的一個原則繼續提高長期的這個績效那最後一個是我們部裡面的這個全選作業系統的資訊系統這個一定要能夠把它更新因為我們每年大概要省50萬的一個案件這個如果我們做得好的話會有助於我們的效率以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":2293.134,"end":2296.806,"text":"好 謝謝施部長接下來我們再請蔡主委報告"},{"start":2304.85,"end":2326.361,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生大家早安今天非常感謝能夠奉邀列席貴委員會同時也非常感謝各位委員對保訓會的長期的支持跟指導讓我們的業務能夠推動得很順利首先先跟各位報告114年保訓會及國家五官學院的幾項重要的施政的成果"},{"start":2326.801,"end":2356.401,"text":"第一個部分就是有關於這個我們剛剛秘書長有提到的我們完備了職場80的一個申訴及防治處理相關法制提升法律的位階那這邊非常非常的感謝這個大院在這個6月24號三讀通過然後預定在明年的1月9號開始正式實施保障法這當中的相關的新的修正然後呢感謝各位委員的支持讓行政機關呢能夠在整個的安全及衛生法制呢邁入一個新的階段那同時呢也"},{"start":2357.262,"end":2364.155,"text":"這個配合著這個保障法的修正我們在安慰辦法呢今年7月1號已經開始正式的實施那目前各機關的這個落實的情況呢"},{"start":2366.874,"end":2396.514,"text":"基本上呢都大致上都有遵循法律的相關的規定也因此呢我們是在7月1號以後呢開始舉辦了非常多場的這個宣導參加的人數呢已經目前包含各式各樣的宣導還有這個各機關的應邀大概已經超過2000人的觸及率同時也有線上的課程然後呢配合整個保障法的一個修正因應明年保障法的一個落實還有安慰辦法的已經開始在執行了"},{"start":2397.074,"end":2415.035,"text":"我們已經完成了八則的通則跟第一則的問答集同時也修正了公務人員一般健檢實施要點還有各機關公務人員執行職務遭受職場霸凌防治處理原則職場霸凌防治申訴及調查處理要點"},{"start":2416.263,"end":2444.162,"text":"各機關安全及衛生設施管理要點各機關辦理安全及衛生防護抽查作業實施要點這些都已經正式在實施的那有關於培訓業務的部分呢我們今年的法定基礎訓練呢截至目前為止9月已經完成了4546人那升官等訓練呢自9月底完成有2811人合計將近9000人那到年底目前還有很多班別正在進行到年底呢預計會超過1萬人"},{"start":2446.303,"end":2464.593,"text":"那有關於這個行政中立的法定事項呢也一樣我們透過更多元的方式那觸及率讓它更廣此外呢我們也繼續的在進行這個很多的法定的這個教材等等的一個修編同時也積極的參與國際上面的培訓的合作"},{"start":2465.954,"end":2488.019,"text":"今年有跟法國比利時還有墨西哥都有簽了一些MOU跟進行實質上的雙邊交流那115年的工作重點主要幾項第一個配合保障法跟安慰辦法將訂定審議標準跟裁罰的相關規範讓整個的安慰的部分能夠更加的落實其他就是有關升官等的部分繼續能夠繼續進行 謝謝"},{"start":2494.771,"end":2513.651,"text":"謝謝蔡主委的報告好的那麼現在機關代表都報告完畢那相關書面報告內容呢請各位參閱並且列入公報記錄那現在就開始進行詢答那本會委員的詢答時間為八分鐘必要時候得延長兩分鐘那非本會委員的質詢時間為五分鐘並不再延長"},{"start":2515.149,"end":2532.667,"text":"有關於這個詢答的登記到上午10點30分就截止發言登記那我們現在就先請登記第一位黃國昌委員進行詢答謝謝主席 麻煩有請秘書長"},{"start":2539.281,"end":2557.703,"text":"委員長秘書長早警察人員事條例在今年4月25號總統已經公佈生效了這是一個三讀通過總統公佈有效的法律那之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間當中請教權序部的官員他明確的表示"},{"start":2558.483,"end":2581.925,"text":"所有考試院會依法行政目前正在有關於進行電腦系統重新的準備需要一些時間所以今年12月底以前針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變這個沒有改變沒有改變現在持續在進行當中行政上的工作我們都在準備"},{"start":2583.189,"end":2606.769,"text":"所以12月以前會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定還在激發是嗎計畫上是這樣那個部長這邊應該也沒有問題這個時程沒有改變嗎沒有改變下一個問題我們之前在討論的都是之前已經退休的因為法律有變更退休的所得替代率變更所以要重新計算"},{"start":2608.357,"end":2636.357,"text":"不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了我在4月25號以後申請退休譬如今年夏天今年夏天7月或8月的時候我申請退休這個時候選區部針對法律生效了以後它所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法應該是依照新法確定依照新法嗎確定依照新法嗎你們核定函是按照新法計法所得替代率嗎"},{"start":2637.315,"end":2666.286,"text":"我是不是請市部長來做可以請因為我現在我必須講個比較直接的我在準備這個題目的時候我有請教我們立法院最近這兩個月退休的警察同仁那因為平常跟他們有互動所以我就關心這個事但是他們跟我反映的事情是說法律生效了以後退休的人他收到了審定函還是按照舊法不是按照新法所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來"},{"start":2667.728,"end":2692.944,"text":"但是你們說是用新法那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎還是怎麼樣那我跟委員報告我們對於新退休的同仁本來就是兩個法律根據原來的退服法我們核多少然後根據調整的警察人士條例會核多少所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩個事情同時說明清楚兩個審定函同時說明清楚一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情OK 好 那"},{"start":2693.888,"end":2714.845,"text":"他從審定還生效了以後所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算應該是講說如果根據退伏法應該支的就是馬上發給但是因為警察人士條例的差額這部分我們就先審定你應該拿多少但是那個差額就等那個核定完以後然後會補差額"},{"start":2717.282,"end":2734.583,"text":"對不起 我聽不懂你發給一個人他退休的時候退休金領多少錢的審定函對他基本上是一個行政處分對 沒錯那個行政處分它本身所發生的效率範圍到底是按照新法計算退休金還是按照舊法計算退休金"},{"start":2735.049,"end":2751.692,"text":"我跟委員報告就是那個審理法從此說明兩件事是我知道就法你多少你說明欄怎麼講都OK剛剛你已經說明過了我說那個行政處分對外部的法律世界發生法律效力的退休金是按照新法計算還是就法計算"},{"start":2753.46,"end":2774.125,"text":"我就說他兩個都包括對 好那如果兩個都包括包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嘛這樣說沒有錯嘛那雖然對外發生法律效力但是他現在針對新法所通過的那個退休金他現在領不到是嗎對為什麼因為那個還沒有計算出來"},{"start":2775.549,"end":2792.895,"text":"新法的還沒有計算出來因為新法有那所的替代率80%所以我們在那個審定函裡面有特別交代一個程序我們只是程序交代這樣好了啦就是說你們在發那個審定函的時候不要涉及到任何人的個資譬如說那警察叫什麼名字身分證字號幾號"},{"start":2795.036,"end":2814.53,"text":"他年紀這個全部都不用你所講的兩個部分的那個審定函你會後可不可以提供給我沒有問題我們就把因為我現在覺得很困惑因為警察同仁跟我反映說不是三讀通過了嗎三讀通過不是按照新法嗎那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金"},{"start":2815.57,"end":2839.988,"text":"這個是他們現在他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益啊是立法院三讀通過的法律啊當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰他可能自己以為他是大法官他有他的法律見解不管你們考試院的事但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政只有這件事情而已你確定給他們的函上面有依照刑法計算的然後等你們"},{"start":2841.149,"end":2855.116,"text":"公事處理完了以後電腦系統完了以後該補給他們的都會補給他們是嗎因為那個後面的錢並不是我們退補基金支的那個就是由行政就是根據法律應該是內政部那邊去支的所以要等那邊"},{"start":2856.477,"end":2873.609,"text":"預算編列完成他們才補到差那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情因為這些公務員對於國家的公法上金錢債權不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別啦這個是行政法的ABC啦我想不用特別解釋應該都清楚啦只是到時候"},{"start":2874.918,"end":2899.546,"text":"該依法編列的預算沒有編列那導致國家的公法上金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話而引發進一步後續的行政訴訟甚至大規模的集體訴訟在取得勝訴確定判決了以後對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上面的強制執行走到那一步 我必須要說啦就很難看了"},{"start":2900.509,"end":2928.596,"text":"就很難看了那個是政府的失職啦那當然我希望行政院可以迷途知返這件事不要再發生然後第二件事情是公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義由誰來加以解釋我講的不是具體個案的事實認定喔是法律適用如果不是通案性的一個解釋是由主管機關 我們全序部會做解釋由主管機關 全序部來加以解釋嗎好 來 我來請教一下"},{"start":2929.932,"end":2954.583,"text":"之前 我在這邊公開質疑之前 擔任民進黨中常委後來接任續產會的董事長年薪將近300萬的書字分有沒有行政人員中立法的適用答案是有 我已經得到答案是有當然在個案的追究上 我就覺得很奇怪中央續產會很閒嗎"},{"start":2957.1,"end":2975.298,"text":"領一年將近三百萬結果跑去搞大罷免上班都不用上班真的很閒嗎牽涉到具體個案認定的部分任市長率先表態這件事情不應該不應該這樣做不應該發生但是取決於他有請假沒有請假"},{"start":2976.019,"end":3001.542,"text":"所以這個就是牽涉到主管機關也就是具體個案事實認定農業部回函給我說7月18號到7月25號蘇志芬董事長已經請假那因為請假了請假他要去做什麼樣的事情那個就是他政治參與活動的自由沒有違法對於農業部所表達這樣子一個法規上面的立場是不是也是玄敘部的立場"},{"start":3002.52,"end":3031.081,"text":"就是公務人員他只要有請假譬如說今天星期四我請假我沒有領國家的薪水那我要去參與大罷免的活動這個是公務人員他們的政治自由是嗎我跟委員報告根據中立法因為它是屬於准用的對象那准用的對象裡面有些是屬於你任何時間都不應該做的有些是你可以請假做的而且什麼活動你可以做什麼活動你不可以做這我知道"},{"start":3031.801,"end":3050.811,"text":"我們通案檢視這樣那至於這個個案本身到底是什麼樣的狀況我現在沒有要跟你講個案了現在我在講的原則就是公務人員我只要有請假就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動基本的法律原則是不是這樣還是只有對書字分是這樣"},{"start":3052.253,"end":3063.675,"text":"如果他是屬於請假但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到譬如說運用到公共資源什麼之類的在法律裡面有這樣一個規定對所有的公務人員都一樣嘛"},{"start":3065.063,"end":3087.162,"text":"對吧所有的公務人員一體施行沒有 這個原則很重要他還是有一些基本那個不同的法條會框進來啦是啦 我了解啦但是我現在在講的是說其實我只要你講一個立場啦這個事情不是書字分有特權啦是所有的公務人員你要請假的時候只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定這本來就是你的政治參與自由嘛沒有錯"},{"start":3088.203,"end":3110.742,"text":"那你大大方方說是就好了讓所有的公務人員心裡都有數嘛大家以後休假的時候都有政治參與的自由嘛不用擔心被扣上一個違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子嘛或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨不能去幫在野黨幫執政黨沒事幫在野黨可能會出事不要出現這樣的狀況就好了嘛"},{"start":3112.123,"end":3127.447,"text":"我們中立法就是說請假是你的一個權益但是你在參與政治活動也不能違反中立法裡面相關的規定那如果沒有請假呢沒有請假就會有問題沒有請假就會有問題嘛沒有關係這個不牽涉到權序部的職權啊"},{"start":3133.208,"end":3160.618,"text":"我到時候再請農業部繼續追農業部說他7月18號到25號是請假但我現在看他公開在上班的時間這上班的時間7月10號 7月11號全部都是上班日在臉書上面公開發文倡議大惡霸在上班的時間上面在臉書上面公開發文倡議大惡霸這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法"},{"start":3161.912,"end":3176.412,"text":"如果是上班的時間如果是上班 這個確定是上班的時間對 他沒有請假因為個案我不清楚沒有關係 你只要表達這個原則就好了啦具體的個案 接下來農業部要去做處理時間的關係啊 最後一個問題"},{"start":3178.092,"end":3207.197,"text":"之前我一直很關心考機的制度因為考機的制度攸關於全中華民國的公務員我們希望一個考機的制度去獎勵認真負責的人而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理抱大腿的人我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則但問題是我們過去的考機制度非常的不合理列甲等的比例不於75%那同時官等越大甲等的比例越高"},{"start":3208.632,"end":3235.993,"text":"我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候我說這個考機制度要不要改每一個從院長副院長到考試委員全部都提出強烈的批判全部都提出強烈的批判要改革但我覺得有點納悶的事情是考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫今天提出來的這個針對考機制度的改革一個字都沒有寫"},{"start":3237.472,"end":3264.022,"text":"那所以當初的考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家說考機制度不合理我們要改革結果行使同意權當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後就沒把他當一回事嗎是這樣嗎跟委員說明周院長有指示考機的這個部分考機法修正的部分也是在立法院行使同意權大家的一個共同的看法跟承諾所以這個事情必須要推動"},{"start":3264.682,"end":3290.853,"text":"那沒有寫在報告裡面主要是因為現在大概還在內部的討論階段但是跟委員說明現在的狀況就是我們內部有做一個意見交換那現在全序部這邊也形成了一個草案那我們內部討論之後呢就會跟各機關來交換意見這樣好不好因為我聽秘書長這樣子講我可以理解啦但是我還是有一些困惑啦把它當成是一個重要的事情要做就應該寫在書面報告裡"},{"start":3293.123,"end":3306.951,"text":"否則的話立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要我們有在做這些事情只存在你們的內心啊國會不知道公務人員不知道人民也不知道沒有關係上一次我請教這個問題的時候你說你會忠實轉達我的意見這個意見有忠實轉達嗎有嘛"},{"start":3315.896,"end":3338.752,"text":"因為今天的書面報告針對這個部分顯然考試院的正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚的表達到底要怎麼樣來加以履行針對這個部分是不是可以請主席裁示請考試院會後提交一個補充的報告來"},{"start":3339.833,"end":3368.547,"text":"他們打算怎麼做現在進度到哪裡因為我現在沒有要你攤牌嘛沒有要你攤牌說你到底考機制度要怎麼改嘛但最起碼過去的這段時間當中幾月幾號召開了什麼會議進行了什麼準備到目前為止的工作進度如何打算什麼時候要把東西提出來這些事情應該要讓國會知道吧這個要求不會太過分吧可以 我們可以提供可以 需要多久放完假以後交來好嗎下個禮拜"},{"start":3369.423,"end":3396.131,"text":"下禮拜就是說把我們現在的進度跟處理狀況是 因為我在你們的書面報告裡面我一個字都沒看到了解我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告這樣的話可能有點太重了畢竟你們各個部會裡面寫的東西以次數來講跟行政院其他部會比起來相對而言是比較充實啦但是重要的事情該寫的還是要寫所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來好嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":3398.732,"end":3410.721,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員那也請秘書長這裡要依照黃委員的指示就是在下禮拜就把補充報告交出來好 謝謝好 那接下來我們就請吳宗憲委員詢答我們麻煩秘書長好 有請秘書長然後待會那個也是要請教全區部長好 也請市部長可以稍微等一下"},{"start":3428.564,"end":3441.757,"text":"委員長早安早 民主黨早安我想民主黨我們首先我先提一下就是說因為一般人民搞不清楚常任文官跟政務官有什麼不一樣"},{"start":3442.557,"end":3468.84,"text":"我想我還是要說明一下政務官他跟一般基層的公務員常任文官其實不同像行政院底下像內政部長或財政部副部長政次發言人秘書長等等的這些不是靠國家考試進來的而是由執政者去任命的這個是政務官但是政務官通常也是行政體系裡面的領導階層"},{"start":3469.921,"end":3493.954,"text":"秘書長這樣理解有沒有錯誤沒有錯誤我想像秘書長你也是算政務官不過我這邊先說明就是秘書長你說我見過民進黨裡面政務官裡面真的是非常有就是我覺得整個中立性以及專業度我覺得是非常欽佩的"},{"start":3495.235,"end":3521.237,"text":"民進黨裡面有一些政務官其實我就比較沒有那麼認同但是您是我非常認同的一位政務官那我想請教一下就是既然是國家的政務官他也是領國家的薪水這是人民的納稅錢那到底有沒有行政中立的義務我想這個問題我們已經討論過好幾次了我想還是請您再說一次他到底有沒有在行政上有沒有中立的義務"},{"start":3523.119,"end":3538.711,"text":"行政中立當然就是看政務官的性質他還是有多多少少一定會有行政中立上面相關的規範只是說政務官跟事務官他們在行政中立上面他們的程度不同以及他們的法律依據不同我想這個應該沒有論述錯誤吧"},{"start":3541.833,"end":3559.743,"text":"那在行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實當時也有提到說政務官的行政中立其實當然不是跟一般常任務官的行政中立用同一個法律來規範但是還是要另立專法對不對要不要另立專法這個當然見仁見智我們尊重立法院的"},{"start":3560.723,"end":3585.028,"text":"但是至少他政務官還是有行政中立的義務存在現在的行政中立法也有這樣的行政中立法那我想請問一下因為之前我們大家都知道有一個群組外洩出來就是裡面有81位民進黨的政務官以及立委以及一些黨工那裡面又提到一些什麼就是"},{"start":3586.148,"end":3612.443,"text":"有人有政務官回應說有立委說要釋出殺傷力的訊息但是有政務官說收到而且要跟市方就是內政部長討論處理中那我想這個部分以您的想法政務官明明拿的是人民的薪水但卻在這邊幫忙做政治的攻防甚至打選戰那這個是不是就是一個行政不中立我想請教一下秘書長"},{"start":3614.724,"end":3635.701,"text":"這個因為我不在這個群組中所以我沒有辦法看到完整的他的對話所以沒有辦法做判斷好吧當然我先說明一下就是寫殺傷力的這個委員當然他後來有解釋殺傷力是什麼意思他說真相對造謠者有殺傷力就是我覺得大家都是"},{"start":3637.062,"end":3654.133,"text":"中文都是母語大家用字遣詞的習慣其實也都一樣這有沒有硬凹我想國人都會有一個公平當然你說硬凹的這種東西我以前開庭看多了被告硬凹凹的比他更誇張的多的是但在這個地方"},{"start":3655.59,"end":3666.861,"text":"這段文字解釋成說真相對造謠者的殺傷力我想沒關係啦這個說的人自己喜歡聽就好了那我想大部分的人民其實不會買單那我想"},{"start":3671.441,"end":3686.927,"text":"這個群組的這個問題其實顯現的一個狀況就是當政務官跟政黨綁在一起的時候其實政府就已經不是政府就變成黨的機器了嘛那我很多次我也不會言的跟大家報告說我以前是民進黨的信徒"},{"start":3687.327,"end":3712.343,"text":"因為我深愛民進黨的親連情 正愛相圖以民進黨以前對於國民黨的批判不應該黨國一體不應該手伸進媒體 學校 軍隊等等的公務體系但是今天他沒有做到他反而手伸得更進去甚至以前他最追求的言論自由現在變成是很不言論自由所以這個就是我覺得開始去反思說我以前支持的"},{"start":3713.325,"end":3732.322,"text":"的那一群人可能因為人員的更換招牌一樣但是內容已經不一樣所以我才會覺得這樣對嗎就是當你把黨務跟國家綁在一起就變成黨國一體的狀況這也不是一個民主國家的常態最近我們看到的就是說"},{"start":3733.323,"end":3750.388,"text":"人民繳的稅金我希望拿來救災而不是救選情也不是救執政的民調的滿意度所以政務官應該為國做事而不是為政黨出權公僕不應該變成是黨僕這是我一直以來我的想法"},{"start":3751.98,"end":3777.262,"text":"所以很多時候政務官的不中立會變成是人民對於政府不信任對政府信任度瓦解的開始所以我想我還是要提出這個我想請問因為您剛剛一直說你不了解你不在群組內不了解所以有一些問題要請問你那我想說你說不了解還是您認同嗎"},{"start":3778.903,"end":3783.287,"text":"政務官搭配立委以及黨工在群組裡面"},{"start":3785.021,"end":3808.718,"text":"發表這樣的言論 您認同嗎您自己是政務官 您的立場我覺得是這樣啦 這個事情都會反映到當一個災害發生的時候 大家都很關心那在第一時間 一定大家社會有各種說法還有一些訊息 那一定有一些不一定是刻意造謠 但可能是也許是不正確的理解在流傳 也有可能那作為民意代表 我相信每一位都會很心急"},{"start":3809.218,"end":3827.767,"text":"也是希望行政部門要趕快把事情說清楚能夠把這個狀況釐清所以我想這個大概可以這裡面看得出來大家在第一時間都很關心也希望政府能夠趕快有行動當然我也相信很多民進黨的立委以及政務官都是非常用心在為這個國家做事這個我也認同"},{"start":3829.668,"end":3849.941,"text":"但是這個群組裡面他有很多是也許是在討論一些救災等等的這個我沒有意見但是單就這個某個特定委員要求說趕快釋出拒殺傷例的這個訊息我是不認同這句話那我更不認同說掛著職稱譬如說總統府秘書長等等的職稱的這個賴的這個怎麼講"},{"start":3856.866,"end":3882.059,"text":"塗貼名稱然後用這個理由去加入到政治的攻擊這個我們是不認同我也不認為政治人物政務官該做這種事情否則我就覺得那以後大家就黨國一體就大家亂搞民主國家政黨輪替是正常是不是換一個政黨之後大家就來搞同一套我不認同這樣我還是覺得民主國家要有民主國家的樣子存在"},{"start":3885.468,"end":3907.606,"text":"更何況殺傷力這個東西這個也不是正常的一些政策或政策協調上面的用語我想我們在用政策協調用語不用殺傷力這個否則你們考試院有可能說我們今年的執行率我們增加了20%的殺傷力我想不會用這樣的用語"},{"start":3908.467,"end":3921.597,"text":"所以自始至終我不認同這個是那位委員他的論述方式我再請問一下 不好意思你們考試院曾經有提過一個版本"},{"start":3930.953,"end":3955.327,"text":"曾經有提過一個版本就是有關政務人員中立的這個版本那我想請教一下我這次看到的這個群組裡面的這些政務官他讓我的感覺是什麼我想先請您告訴我在這個災難的期間你不救人你反而去協調政黨的攻防那這樣子是不是違背政務官這個代表政府應該有的職責"},{"start":3956.846,"end":3973.714,"text":"是不是我看在這個災難發生的時候這個中央或者是地方很多人大家都是很努力的去要去處理這個問題民主黨 這個我不否認我也跟民主黨報告我不是說一定"},{"start":3974.474,"end":4000.766,"text":"民進黨就壞人 不是大部分的民進黨的立委我都非常的尊重大部分的民進黨的政務官我也很尊重他們他們很多時候也在為這個國家努力做事但是我意思是說有少部分或偶爾有幾件這樣子的事情發生我覺得國人不能接受我從來沒有否定掉這些委員們對於國家的貢獻我從來沒有否認像在座王一川委員他也對國家很多貢獻我也從來沒有否認所以"},{"start":4003.226,"end":4022.837,"text":"您不用跟我回答說救災期間大家很努力我覺得這個我不是聚焦在這邊我只是意見是說當救災期間政務官卻陪著立法委員在那邊搞這些殺傷力的訊息他說好 那他就要找誰處理你覺得這樣適當嗎"},{"start":4027.386,"end":4049.481,"text":"我覺得還是要釐清他們到底在對話的內容到底是要講什麼不方便講這個啦我也可以理解啦在現行我們整個國家制度以及民進黨內對於思想控制的情況下我認為政務官不敢講真話這已經變成是一個國家常態而且是國家的悲哀大家不敢把真正的話說出來但事實上我們認為"},{"start":4050.882,"end":4076.165,"text":"政務官竟然已經當政務官了其實你某程度你就要跳脫政黨之間的對立而是要全力為國家人民我認為是這個樣子所以我還是回過頭去說好吧 那至少我的認定我認為在救災國家有難的期間政務官應該全力去救災而不是在群組裡面配合黨工或部分政治力比較強烈的"},{"start":4077.006,"end":4093.723,"text":"立委在那邊搞政治的鬥爭因為這些東西確實就會侵害到國家的利益毀損掉國家的名譽所以我剛提到的考試院當年的政務人員法第21條的立法理由其實政務官他應該"},{"start":4094.904,"end":4113.443,"text":"如果發生一些狀況其實他應該看整體的國家局勢他真的不戴懲戒就應該主動辭職以事負責所以這個才是政務官的風範也就是當年你們考試院對於政務官的要求這個立法是你們當年的立法但是我今天看到的是"},{"start":4115.339,"end":4139.762,"text":"執政黨執政九年多了裡面非常多的政策荒腔走板但是我們幾乎沒有看到什麼政務官願意辭職以示負責所以你們當年對於國人對於國家政務官體系的期待其實在今天我們是沒看到所以這個草案還是草案你們貴院當年的期待其實是在今天的台灣是沒有看到的"},{"start":4142.194,"end":4168.891,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我一直說我們這次要著重政務人員的行政中立然後我要推出一個行為基準法就是這樣因為我們都不知道我們會在立法院多久您也不知道您會在政壇多久對不對但我們還是要給國家跟人民留下一些貢獻政務官的行政中立是非常的重要不是只有事務官需要行政中立因為政務官是事務官的長官"},{"start":4170.543,"end":4197.923,"text":"我今天看到的狀況是一個行政院院長帶頭違憲違法立法院三讀通過的法律可以不執行就一句說我申請四憲中所以我認為這個違憲所以我不執行全世界沒有人這樣做過往我國政府也沒有人這樣做過完全違反三權分立或五權分立國家的制度他都敢這樣講那你要繼承的公務員怎麼想因為政務官是他們的長官"},{"start":4200.589,"end":4219.637,"text":"所以我說我這次我一直提倡要推這個基準法其實我是希望政務官能夠回歸法治明確界限界限那個界限的存在中立跟不中立界限要把它存在讓他們在執行權力的時候不能任性然後責任要能夠被追究所以我這次我一直堅持要提這個"},{"start":4221.097,"end":4243.734,"text":"基準法出來如果說貴院一直沒有辦法再提出版本那就由我們立法院來主動提因為我認為不管未來哪一個黨執政該黨的政務官就是要忠義要為國而不是為黨這是行政院長的做法我想任何一個法律人應該都很懂"},{"start":4245.27,"end":4267.859,"text":"有念法律或相關的其實你應該也很能夠理解哪有一個立法院三讀通過的法律行政院可以選擇不執行或者是說我釋憲中所以我不執行還可以講這種話那今天我如果對哪個法律我不喜歡那我去申請釋憲那我是不是從申請釋憲那天開始我就說我可以不遵守這條法律"},{"start":4268.752,"end":4292.295,"text":"所以我開玩笑的對大家說我對稅增基增法申請釋憲從釋憲那天開始申請那天開始我就不繳稅因為我要遵守我認為這違憲所以我要遵守憲法所以我不用繳稅其實這是荒謬的言論那行政院院長他在未來也會為他這句話去附上他一輩子的責任因為這是極端的荒謬全世界也沒有人這樣幹"},{"start":4294.316,"end":4320.003,"text":"不好意思 我耽誤大家很多時間最後我想花一點點時間部長不好意思我想我們剛剛提到的是行政中立的問題現在我再提一個體系上面的問題我想我們已經講了很多次了這幾年公務員的入企率越來越高但公務員入企率越來越高的原因是因為大家不想考考生越來越少"},{"start":4321.621,"end":4337.588,"text":"所以執政應該是要廣羅人才來為政府的服務嘛一流的人才才能為我們帶來一流的政府就現在大家不想來我們現在看到的體系變成什麼樣上面的大官在搞政治中階的"},{"start":4338.849,"end":4365.077,"text":"官員沒有士氣完全提不起勁然後底下的新進人員流失流光光沒有人要來我先舉新北檢的例子2025年今年新北檢9個辭職然後後來又包括一個調布辦事的檢察官也辭職10個辭職一個地檢署才幾個檢察官一次10個檢察官離開檢察官薪水是10幾20萬一個月"},{"start":4366.917,"end":4383.368,"text":"他都不幹了然後更不要講各級公務員一堆問題那這次離開的有我帶過以前的學習司法官他們跟我講的是一連串體系出了大問題那為什麼執政九年會把國家帶像今天這個樣子"},{"start":4385.716,"end":4404.147,"text":"我其實是很擔心的那中階的官員為什麼沒有士氣因為身欠無望啊上面一堆位子都由不專業的人來卡最上面的位子我想今天如果有公務員在聽我們今天他就能夠深切的體會一堆高階的官員現在都有不專業的人在那邊領軍由不專業的來領軍專業的中階公務員沒士氣上面的人違法"},{"start":4411.482,"end":4419.689,"text":"像行政院長違法 違憲三如通過法律不執行然後底下人只能陪著他這麼幹這樣子就沒有士氣了"},{"start":4421.063,"end":4447.839,"text":"解凍案已經準備好了長官叫我不可以送出去那請問一下中階的官員會有士氣嗎每個人都知道是為了罷免而不能送出解凍案但每個人都擔心預算的問題但長官不給我送這是當時一堆公務員跳出來爆料啊所以為什麼今天會搞成這樣為什麼執政之後把公務員搞得沒有尊嚴沒有保障退休金講好了後來也不給所以"},{"start":4449.622,"end":4452.412,"text":"我想我要麻煩各位"},{"start":4455.379,"end":4480.952,"text":"國家走到今天這樣尤其是數字是不會騙人數字是最科學的我們看到的是報考的人數越來越少越來越少一堆中階訓練很扎實的一個一個走掉我說像新北檢走掉那個大概都是十年左右的甲官訓練剛好是體力跟經驗值剛好是最橫貧的那個時候就有一個一個走光光這個是我對於國家的憂慮"},{"start":4482.753,"end":4501.051,"text":"還有各行各業各個公部門都有一樣的狀況發生那我想兩位雖然是民進黨的政務官但我覺得你們對國家一定也有熱忱你們在看到國家今天變成這樣我想兩位也會擔心所以我要提出來這個"},{"start":4503.427,"end":4514.346,"text":"麻煩一下我想幾個主張再跟兩位報告第一個我還是希望依法行政的公務員要被尊重"},{"start":4515.714,"end":4542.993,"text":"行政院不要再用預算裁量當藉口然後把這個真的你依法該給的待遇退休金依法該辦理就辦理不要什麼都政治算計這個麻煩當然我知道院長是取決於院長那院長現在既然要跟法治跟憲法對著幹那我們也只能期待他有一天能夠迷途知返那第二個我們希望說考試院重新檢討"},{"start":4544.534,"end":4573.095,"text":"待遇結構還有職涯的激勵包括剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的那個平等 甲等乙等的問題然後我們要讓年輕人看到真的有升遷轉任機制讓公職的人能夠回到有尊嚴的職業選擇因為我記得我剛出來當檢察官那個時代不管是待遇 不管是受人尊敬都非常的高現在我真的看不到那很多時候反而是我們政治人物把國家帶到今天這樣然後再來我覺得我要跟兩位報告"},{"start":4574.264,"end":4602.338,"text":"因為考試院一直不推出來所以我們這邊會推動政務人員行為基準法我們把政治干預還有公務體系私信的根源我們要把它去除掉我們希望說不要讓政治力還有違法的行政這些干預到我們整個國家行政體系否則你再怎麼樣都救不了我們現在公務員很低的士氣最後我還是謝謝兩位因為兩位真的都是我很敬佩的兩位政務官"},{"start":4603.078,"end":4614.2,"text":"那我們希望說我今天提這個東西兩位能夠協助我們我們一起把相關的制度把它改善然後給國家引入更好的公務人員好不好好 謝謝各位"},{"start":4615.526,"end":4638.438,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員語重心長然後也希望考試院能夠儘速的提出這個政務人員法的相關的對岸那麼因為本席其實也已經在研擬政務人員法我也會 近期就會提出那我想這個是大家都很關心的議題也應該列入到你們這年度的立法計畫裡面好 那麼接下來我們就請王一川委員發言"},{"start":4650.572,"end":4651.912,"text":"不是 因為我希望委員們能夠在一定的他的問題"},{"start":4683.174,"end":4705.441,"text":"我會跟委員們再個別的拜託因為要請大家要能夠遵守時間畢竟因為剛開始這個規則也許大家還不是那麼的清楚不會啦 妳第一天都講得很清楚了是 謝謝王委員 您對我的建議我所說的規則很感謝妳她要是要這樣布的計時器都拐掉 沒意思嘛"},{"start":4706.365,"end":4732.913,"text":"要跟我說8加2 要跟我說20分錢 大家都坐在一起說錯在我 他有站起來制止我是我硬要講 錯在我不要為難主席我不會去說你主席第一天自己雙心壯志說我從現在開始我就會嚴格執行最多10分鐘那就麻煩王委員請開始我承認我之前可能處理的方式不是很妥當麻煩王委員請下"},{"start":4733.353,"end":4736.895,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請考選部長好不好 謝謝委員長好 部長好 我跟你反映一件事情也在你們的報告裡頭就是說現在考公務員因為大部分來自大學 校院畢業的學生那你們有去跟大學討論課程地圖跟這個報考的關係"},{"start":4762.438,"end":4783.505,"text":"那現在發生一些問題就是說很多私立學校因為科系整併的關係那他可能兩個系併成一個系所以他的科系的名字就改了那名字改就有可能影響報考資格嘛這個沒有錯嘛好 譬如說他要考土木類科"},{"start":4784.853,"end":4808.504,"text":"那他這個原來譬如說是土木工程學系什麼營建什麼系可以考類似這樣可是因為他合併以後他就可能這個科系的名字不對了跟你們原來不一樣那第二個你們當然有一個補救方法就是說那他如果大學修過哪些課至少修過多少什麼課也可以報考"},{"start":4809.417,"end":4823.625,"text":"那就會發生很多學校的課程委員各系的課程委員沒有去關心這些事情就像那個大學生他畢業以後他決定要去考公務員的時候他就發現說 我不能課不能課他又回頭去跟原來的系講說我想要課 我不能課"},{"start":4832.123,"end":4845.196,"text":"結果這個系他可能就發一個公文到考選部去請考選部研議就是說我們這個大學某某系可不可以讓我們在你們的清單裡頭這個事情現在怎麼解決"},{"start":4848.339,"end":4864.471,"text":"跟委員報告如果是我想委員講的問題沒有錯就是如果是個案的話我們現在大概是回到我們的審議或者是說這邊解決但是可能比較徹底的解決就是我們現在正在跟各個大學去對"},{"start":4865.591,"end":4893.79,"text":"說在過去政府委員所說你過去課程委員會可能一直改結果你都不知道說自己的戲名可能跟我們那已經偏差掉了或者是說你裡面可以考的那一科我們對出來其實現在有的學校譬如說五科有四科一科不見了然後六科有四科兩科不見了那我們現在已經對過了幾個學校像東吳 成大然後我們希望接下來我們那技術是剛發展出來我們希望接下來就是說逐步的擴大去跟所有的學校"},{"start":4894.898,"end":4912.963,"text":"要把這個對一次好 這個要趕快做不然有一些人 剛剛就說考的人很少他不是考的人是因為他想考可是他沒辦法那邏輯上來說他就不是念這個科系可是他 如果你讓他考 他考得過對不對 他可能自學嘛"},{"start":4916.499,"end":4919.804,"text":"那培養了第二專長或者去補習班補習那他考得過我比原科系的可能考得更好那考選部對這樣的學生就這樣的考生你們有什麼看法"},{"start":4931.765,"end":4958.564,"text":"目前我們是分為行政類科 技術類科行政類科比較沒有問題 大部分科系這樣委員說的問題會發生在技術類科那的確 依現在的法制如果它沒有 它不在那個科系可是它是可以修一定的課程就可以來考特別技術類科不過這邊的問題就是委員剛所說的如果要畢業就沒有辦法回頭修所以我們還是盡快的去協助各個學校好 那它沒辦法修可不可以讓各大學的推廣教育開課"},{"start":4960.266,"end":4975.32,"text":"應該是我記得應該是可以可以嗎 對這個有沒有限制他只要 並沒有限制他只要對過我知道是可以好 我就是說他假設他原來大學念法律那他現在準備來考土木技術喔"},{"start":4976.48,"end":5000.165,"text":"然後他就去補習然後補習也沒有用因為補習只是繳錢於是他去某某大學的這個土木系的推廣教育然後他就去修了這些課也拿到了這些學分推廣教育的學分這些你們都認在他大學有修過這些課嗎只要是大學的課程就承認那現在開的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":5002.448,"end":5010.592,"text":"這個我們可能要回去再清查一下因為我們現在科系的名稱越來越長就會發生這個 名稱越來越長就是就是涵蓋範圍越來越廣 學的越來越少最後他要參加國家考試 換人說我這個學生命這麼長 結果一堆下去 我不能考這個事情 我現在發現這個很嚴重因為我以前在學校當系主任"},{"start":5025.956,"end":5034.799,"text":"就會有學生跑回來說主任你把我們的學名改成這樣現在海灣都不可以課海灣也不可以課改完之後畢竟他不可以課就會遇到這個課題好不好這是第一個第二請這個秘書長我們秘書長請問一下我們現在的商調機制你們現在有一些新的做法有人說就是人才嘛那他在A單位"},{"start":5050.609,"end":5077.168,"text":"可能就想要調V單位V單位來了一個商調函那你們現在弄了一個就是一個月要回復如果一個月沒有回復那就是第二個月就直接可以過掉嘛那後來又弄了一個這個也有一點防弊機制啦譬如說你調去三個位調到V單位三個位之後又去搞說我要去C單位了所以你們訂了一個六個月的"},{"start":5077.867,"end":5084.462,"text":"六個月的機制這個機制現在在公務體系的同仁裡頭現在看起來大家都接受嗎"},{"start":5085.906,"end":5113.277,"text":"跟委員報告我們在討論這個過程裡面當然要平衡兩方的需求一個是想要調的人一個是用人機關對所以我們就不斷討論完以後所以才有說六個月你不能來就睡覺嘛六個月最少你要待六個月接下來就是三個月如果你找到缺了有人要你你商調完去就是三個月原機關就應該要放人如果除了原機關有非常特別的少數理由可以再加三那誰認定啊"},{"start":5114.798,"end":5138.172,"text":"我們都是用人機關來處理這個事情不過現在實務上啦原來的機關就是說我會有這個需求因為它還是要符合那個條件譬如像說重大災害的搶救我們那個條件還是寫得很清楚啦OK沒有模糊空間幾乎都是那個要認定那個東西你還是要具體的事實而且老實說我們那個現在它這是一個處分啦"},{"start":5139.702,"end":5147.916,"text":"OK 好 謝謝你那第三個你們有一個就是考試分花分花完了之後因為就是理解等於沒人要報名"},{"start":5149.108,"end":5170.122,"text":"我用人機關 我要三個需求嘛那我就去報上去 然後就考完試嘛考完試都沒人要來嘛一考上去也沒人要來嘛所以你們就啟動了一個機制就是有公務人員資格的 有任用資格的然後他就可以 這個機關可以直接找這個有資格的就只用非限職人員啦非限職人員要有資格啦要有資格 好那這個時候的這個條件"},{"start":5174.458,"end":5201.874,"text":"就你原來用人機關去跟考選部說我要請你幫我考這些人或者是怎樣的時候有一個條件就是說條件可是你現在在用人的時候用人的時候那個條件會比原來他要分發的那些就是說他的條件更高還是更低會不會在這個地方被動手腳就是說我就是頂級很害怕的條件到我都沒人要來嗎然後到最後我用的時候他是有公務人員這種資格就是"},{"start":5202.847,"end":5209.273,"text":"但是他 我就用了他的之後呢 我要用我自己的人啊所以你 我叫你考選部幫我扣的時候 我頂得很害怕啊然後你派來的時候 派來我都說不愛啊 會不會這樣我給委員報告 機關報給考選部開去的時候沒有訂任何資格條件 它就說我站好就報 根據這就來了那機關如果用非限制 因為它已經取得公務人員資格嘛 對不對"},{"start":5227.088,"end":5251.058,"text":"那我們要非限職人至少不是說任何人都可以來譬如說土木工程你至少一定要你的這個職系要土木工程職系你要有符合土木工程任用職系的相關資格才能來機關還可以設定就是說我可能可以教你有沒有工作經驗什麼的由機關來決定一般不會啦因為機關要用人你就是要自己用你不會拿一個石頭砸自己的腳那不一定啦不會啦"},{"start":5252.967,"end":5261.291,"text":"他如果有目標人選就不一定我們講是說這個因為是給機關有一個快速用的機關應該有個機制會去處理我是說提醒一下因為醫療搞不好會出現這種"},{"start":5268.994,"end":5281.803,"text":"漏洞啦 這個漏洞 這個要預防啦要不然以後大家 剛才說我們本地開的缺價的那早就要給什麼人啊 那個人現在就想要來啊他非限職啊"},{"start":5283.652,"end":5302.337,"text":"我了解 你知道我的意思這個是我們會透過我想再跟行政院人事總書好好再談可以透過人事同仁的這個單位來一起來宣導這些事情這個算是一種預先的預防才不會以後大家在後面閒言閒語太多好 以上 謝謝謝謝王委員 非常遵守時間 謝謝"},{"start":5310.555,"end":5316.958,"text":"好 那接下來我想請王宏威委員可以幫忙帶我先主持一下會議好 現在我們請翁曉琳委員質詢謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長"},{"start":5342.723,"end":5358.799,"text":"委員長是 秘書長還有部長早剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛也有說我也會很快的競訴就會提出政務人員法"},{"start":5359.439,"end":5383.189,"text":"那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說"},{"start":5384.409,"end":5399.765,"text":"看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方的話是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的"},{"start":5402.288,"end":5427.869,"text":"它的主管全責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長 施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案"},{"start":5428.269,"end":5446.474,"text":"所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一併提供"},{"start":5447.615,"end":5467.095,"text":"麻煩整併在同一份報告裡面接下來本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題"},{"start":5471.713,"end":5494.51,"text":"有看到這個議題嗎在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然蓄援鳳擠會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個"},{"start":5496.031,"end":5522.296,"text":"情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央及地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用"},{"start":5523.556,"end":5548.808,"text":"更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生"},{"start":5550.14,"end":5571.276,"text":"我跟委員報告當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講就是說有人降掉關等對 降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯"},{"start":5573.297,"end":5601.168,"text":"為什麼有人會這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去有些人各式各樣的理由我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變"},{"start":5602.578,"end":5624.561,"text":"我們現在制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了那個本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的"},{"start":5625.502,"end":5628.306,"text":"因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題對不對"},{"start":5642.304,"end":5644.905,"text":"就这一点来讲我觉得我们会做说不定有些高职等的官员他已经升等了但是他想要去做更轻松更没有压力更没有负担的工作我觉得这个会造成一个工作上的不平等我认为说法律预算中心他们今天提出了"},{"start":5660.031,"end":5674.958,"text":"這樣的一個報告然後我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎 針對這個問題然後去分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣"},{"start":5683.642,"end":5707.061,"text":"應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好 那麼接下來我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則"},{"start":5711.585,"end":5739.667,"text":"那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就用调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多"},{"start":5740.697,"end":5751.075,"text":"就是你的八九值等的員額增加但是你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮減他的"},{"start":5752.839,"end":5778.926,"text":"的名額不會 這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置"},{"start":5779.706,"end":5797.514,"text":"這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好 那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層"},{"start":5806.218,"end":5823.855,"text":"可能会出现基层人力不足的问题出现短缺那么却又大幅的提高中高阶的人力的问题可能我们文字没有表达来很好但是我们有这个过程都跟行政机关有充分的一个讨论然后做一个通盘性的检讨不会出现委员讲的一些议题"},{"start":5824.309,"end":5844.79,"text":"但是我們隨時還是在Morning個案的一個狀況然後做必要的調整好 那麼最後一個問題就是說最近有一份報導指出台灣的員工過勞指數高達36%那麼這不僅是亞洲之冠而且遠遠高於北美洲 歐洲等等這些國家所以台灣儼然就是一個過勞之島"},{"start":5846.371,"end":5874.72,"text":"那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面它顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%其實這個部分顯現台灣的工作環境的確有過勞的情況那麼因此最近又有民眾在公共政策網路平台上面發起連署"},{"start":5875.06,"end":5896.608,"text":"提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道情绪部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法未来有没有可能会朝向更缩短工时"},{"start":5897.973,"end":5919.742,"text":"的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個公使其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼"},{"start":5920.322,"end":5947.18,"text":"是啦 不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天都缩短"},{"start":5948.04,"end":5967.918,"text":"每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝翁曉琳委員那接下來就是王宏偉委員執行"},{"start":5976.001,"end":5977.903,"text":"好 接下來請王宏威委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請那個全旭部長好 請施部長部長早部長早"},{"start":5996.691,"end":6019.733,"text":"在你們的報告裡面有針對我們目前以及針對我們的公務人員的一些修法還有改進也感謝包含考試院的願意配合至少我個人在上個會期我大概主要是兩個一個就是我們公務人員考積法"},{"start":6020.573,"end":6039.679,"text":"對 就是把霸凌還有酒駕 性騷等等把它列入我們公務人員考機法那有這個法源最嚴重的我們可以計兩大過於免職那麼可以建構一個更優良的更好的一個公務人員的一個就業環境"},{"start":6040.879,"end":6065.16,"text":"另外一個就是有關於放寬商調權的問題我們在這邊也謝謝我們全序部有從善如流我覺得這速度也算是快從我們關心到最後的改進所以在這一點就是說你們在之前的你們的報告裡面的一些相關的內容我想就是予以感謝以及肯定"},{"start":6066.14,"end":6085.475,"text":"謝謝委員的支持另外就是要跟部長考試院這邊來討論的像現在我們的財政委員會正在召開聯席會議就是針對特別預算在做審查"},{"start":6086.656,"end":6092.72,"text":"那在這一次呢這個我們的特別條例裡面呢有撥補勞保基金撥補100億那麼在明年度的預算裡面勞保基金的撥補呢也把它提高到就是跟那個114年一樣把它變成1200億也就是說這幾年鑑於勞保基金的這個它的潛在性的負債那麼政府呢"},{"start":6114.213,"end":6132.784,"text":"都撥補一定的金額到勞保基金裡面那可是另外一部分除了勞保基金之外同樣的我們退府基金在你們報告裡面也有特別提到我們也有潛藏性的一個債務也有高達未來要提撥的也有高達將近三兆之多所以"},{"start":6140.809,"end":6147.814,"text":"對我們現職的公教人員來說他們也希望退府基金的財務能夠健全這個對他們未來 因為他們很害怕等到有一天他退休的時候我們退府基金會不會因為財務的問題讓他們影響他們的權益所以在這段時間裡面譬如說我們的教師工會教師團體 全教總"},{"start":6168.067,"end":6181.689,"text":"就一直在爭取要讓我們的公教的退伏基金能夠讓政府能夠根據這個精算能夠加速的去做撥補"},{"start":6183.035,"end":6210.092,"text":"可是到目前為止以今年度來講我們政府編列還是194億它是以30年但是我們很多的公教人員或者是團體還是希望能夠依照10年精算的撥補來撥補退府基金我想請問一下明年度我們的預算是多少"},{"start":6211.967,"end":6236.1,"text":"公教加起來我們是根據10我們都是用10年撥補的一個方式去提出概算然後明年應該如果是明年應該是200公務人員282公務人員提出282那因為教育人員是歸教育部編列的所以你公務人員是你公務人員是282"},{"start":6242.085,"end":6257.781,"text":"不是公教退輔基金就是我們的公務人員退輔基金我們編的概算數是282億那教育人員是198億那行政院因為這是我們編的編列數但行政院並沒有合這麼多"},{"start":6259.395,"end":6272.889,"text":"我就问你预算数法定预算数不是法定预算行政院的预算编列数是126公务人员教育人员是92所以加起来是218218比今年194亿多一点点对"},{"start":6278.953,"end":6294.884,"text":"多的不多嘛其實基本上他還是以20年嘛20年 行政院用20年對 你剛講以10年我剛還想說我幫他們高興一下因為他們在爭取就是希望以10年來撥補嘛對 我理解可是每次我們政府都是以20年來撥補所以我剛講說預算數是多少"},{"start":6300.194,"end":6319.528,"text":"所以218亿仍然其实是依照20年所以这个部分就是相关老保基金我们加速拨补让他的财务能够更健全一点当然老保基金他的前章性的贷物负债也很可观"},{"start":6320.909,"end":6335.125,"text":"所以在這個部分是不是我要特別講的就是現在的公教人員希望也能夠加速撥補公教的退府基金所以這一個部分"},{"start":6335.726,"end":6352.399,"text":"可是就是說這個都是如果是依賴公務預算公務預算最後就排起來 排擠去而且說實在尤其我們當我們的國防支出要佔這個GDP比例年年要提高的時候它當然一定相對排擠其他的預算"},{"start":6354.821,"end":6358.385,"text":"所以我也想請問那時候你們來拜訪我的時候也特別提到就是說我們退府基金因為它是一個長期的它也必須要穩定公務人員 公教人員中是我們國家的資產"},{"start":6371.741,"end":6375.883,"text":"那所以你們會不會有考慮讓他有一個穩定的裁員來做撥補否則每一年像蔡市長喊價一樣是不是都這樣子嗎都像市長這樣我那個公教人員希望你們多補一些多編一些預算可是那政府可能每一次就是還是說其實我很希望多撥補最後"},{"start":6395.171,"end":6397.657,"text":"仍然不能如願所以可不可能從長期來看又找一個長期的穩定的來源"},{"start":6403.925,"end":6429.755,"text":"委員報告其實我們這個國家碰到這個所有的長期的一個基金不是只有退伏基金老保也是一樣的一個概念那如果說整個社會有共識說我們去弄一個什麼樣長期穩定的來源來同時讓這兩個基金可以永續我想任何這作為基金的主管機關來講應該是都樂見其成但是我覺得這不會是只有退伏基金的問題因為我們還有一個"},{"start":6430.735,"end":6445.65,"text":"所以你也知道如果只是針對退府基金的話那勞保基金那廣大的勞工朋友說那為什麼只有長期來源只撥補給退府基金呢對不對我勞保基金我也要你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":6447.377,"end":6466.992,"text":"我們現在的所謂潛藏負債其實是勞保是比公保還比退補金還大我只是在講是說這是一個很長遠的議題所以如果社會有共識同時有一個如果真的要找到一個比較是穩定的裁員那我覺得同時考慮這個事情一定不是壞事情"},{"start":6467.994,"end":6491.139,"text":"那另外我請教一下在你們的報告裡面有特別提到到目前為止就是整個的收益率整個的收益率已經是超過6000多億是6600多億那請問一下這6000多億裡面不包括年改年金改革裡面"},{"start":6492.239,"end":6497.257,"text":"就是挹注回來這個退伏基金的錢應該大概兩千億嘛"},{"start":6498.835,"end":6527.375,"text":"包括我們就是預注回來的錢一起去投資那我們現在大概已經預注了2500多億了2500多億所以我的意思說你說到今年8月底退福基金累計收益是6681億然後這6681億包不包括那2500億這個應該是指來了以後一起去投資的我們來了一個在大水庫裡面去投資這樣一個累計的一個收益"},{"start":6529.223,"end":6547.435,"text":"所以包括嘛包括那2500億它已經進來這個我們基金裡面了所以就是運用規模因為運用規模像一兆嘛所以那2500億是在那一兆裡面嗎對包括在裡面好那我請問一下到8月底為止你們的收益率是4.53%4.53%請問部長你滿意這個收益率嗎"},{"start":6554.298,"end":6573.73,"text":"我想這是非常高度專業的這個我們一直在強調基金要看長期的一個投資就像我們最近5年大概有9點多平均9點多的一個收益率今年因為有一些狀況會稍微上上下下具體的事情這是由我們管理局是不是我請局長來做說明好 請局長請問一下這4.5升你們滿意嗎"},{"start":6578.061,"end":6602.695,"text":"報告委員這是從基金成立以來的平均的收益率那在近10年跟5年跟3年的收益率不是啦 我就跟你講今年的嘛4.53是今年的嘛對 到今年8月還有4.53你當局長到現在為止你基本的數字你要掌握啊因為大家就認為你這4.53當然是受利於在今年的股市還不錯嘛"},{"start":6603.735,"end":6633.315,"text":"是因為今年的股市還不錯我知道你們委外的收益率還不錯可是你們自己自行操作的其實今天還發生虧損我也不知道我這到時候還要了解我不曉得為什麼還會發生虧損你們主要是委外的部分因為今年大盤到現在為止九月份你們應該還是收益更好一點九月份因為那個股市漲得更多所以你們當然是跟著股市這個股市漲你們當然就是那個收益比較好一點"},{"start":6633.895,"end":6657.692,"text":"但是外界还是会认为你们跟大盘的表现还是差太多了你们跟大盘的表现还是差太多所以我特别要讲就是说因为我们退府基金其实老保基金也是如此长期以来都会为外界诟病就是为什么我们的整体的收益率其实是偏低的"},{"start":6658.072,"end":6678.784,"text":"當然你們每次來比較都是你們跟台銀台銀的長期存款我們比台銀的長期存款多這個不要比了啦這個就不要比不然你就直接去存台銀就好了幹嘛操作什麼呢有什麼好操作還要去花這些手續費所以在怎麼樣去精進你們的投資收益非常重要"},{"start":6679.484,"end":6698.794,"text":"另外從今年開始你們也開始開放讓大家用自己的專戶去做投資因為你們這邊的資料不夠清楚我可能到時候也會了解一下怎麼讓我們公務人員 公教人員在他的整個退休金的大水池裡"},{"start":6700.614,"end":6724.642,"text":"讓他財務是健全的然後他的收益是穩健的不只穩健 而且這個收益也要一定要達到一定的水準你們退服基金 績效越好公教人員越安心嘛 是不是這樣所以局長要掌握這個數字我怎麼問一問 4.5%明明是今年度的啊你又一直在跟我講什麼全部平均的 好不好加油啦 謝謝"},{"start":6728.364,"end":6730.586,"text":"那接下來請林建啟委員謝謝我們主席翁昭偉我先請那個考選部我們劉部長請劉部長"},{"start":6751.548,"end":6775.764,"text":"委員長部長好過去國考是穩定的象徵本期現在看到公務人員的公務人才的流失跟報考的意願低迷根據考選部的統計2023年有16個類科的報考數少於需要錄取的人數甚至有4個類科沒有人報考高普考錄取不足的人數總人數達268人"},{"start":6782.168,"end":6804.916,"text":"那錄取不足的現象尤其集中在技術類科包含建築、土木、機械、水力、電力工程等那這都是國家在建設上很重要在公共安全的關鍵崗位那麼政府如果缺乏技術人才那勢必會影響基層的執行力跟公共服務的品質那本席在這個部分尤其是關注原住民族特考"},{"start":6806.037,"end":6820.239,"text":"這個現象非常的嚴重像原住民特考的三等土木工程要用二十六人卻只有十個人報考四等的機械工程更出現了零報考的情況顯示這個制度雖然有保障名額但是卻失去"},{"start":6821.76,"end":6842.47,"text":"缺乏實質跟有效的一個誘因那所以原住民特考本來原意是要讓族人進入公部門回饋原鄉但是現在卻整個有點空泛掉了所以在立法院的這個研究報告裡面也已經指出希望考選部能夠積極跟相關部會來會商研商提高類科"},{"start":6844.511,"end":6872.81,"text":"類科考選的一個效能那特別是針對我們東部地區的土木人才跟原鄉的STEM相關科系的職缺應該要設計相當的誘因跟培育的基地那例如這個留任的家籍還有專業家籍讓人才願意到原鄉也願意留在原鄉但是我相信這整個體系可能有很大的一個問題那本席在去年也針對有關於STEM人才的培育提出一些問題"},{"start":6873.75,"end":6900.556,"text":"那麼本席這邊有幾個問題想跟您請教那第一個部分是針對原住民族特考長期報考人數的一個下滑那考選部對原因的一個了解那對策的一個眼影是如何那另外考選部是不是有跟原民會教育部跟工程會相關的部會來協調建立原鄉與偏鄉人才培育的基地讓從基層一直到大學技職教育培養土木水利的專業基層能力"},{"start":6902.256,"end":6930.19,"text":"甚至還有農林相關的類科第三個部分是對於錄取不足的技職類科考選部是不是可以檢討命題的內容 錄取的門檻來強化教育體系 專業體系的一個連結如果國家有急需工程的技術人力卻因為考題偏難或者是不服實務也沒有辦法在原鄉服務導致沒有人錄取那是不是也有點浪費"},{"start":6930.99,"end":6958.949,"text":"那本席知道部長你也曾經擔任過教育部次長那是不是在這個部分有一些想法可以來執行呢給予一些建議好嗎是 跟委員報告那這也是我們考選部非常在意的一個議題那就如委員所說其實那一個特別是土木工程其實包含土木 電力然後其實也還有經濟跟財稅對 還有農林等等的考的不足額"},{"start":6959.724,"end":6977.984,"text":"大概這幾個類客就佔了快九成那這的確是一個必須去因應的問題那我們有跟那個原民會跟教育部已經有跟他們聯繫那有開會討論那最主要是我們根據我們那個原住民族的教育法那是必須要奠定一個"},{"start":6978.704,"end":7003.749,"text":"每五年要一個教育發展計畫那目前下一年度的教育發展計畫正在訂定中那我們希望能夠透過教育部跟那個園民會把培育園民的公務人才也要列為園民的這個教育這邊一個非常重要的要投資跟發展那尤其是公務體系裡面那幾個經常在缺的類科對園鄉也是非常重要的特別是技術類科是的 就如委員所說"},{"start":7005.029,"end":7009.618,"text":"那特別是我們也有注意到如果我們說在譬如說"},{"start":7010.7,"end":7036.386,"text":"我們在特考的確土木工程是個普遍嚴重的問題但是特別在原鄉部落這個問題又特別嚴重我們其實我們有注意到在整個東部其實非常缺乏培育土木工程人才的基地因為東部是原鄉一個很重要的基地所以這個部分如果是那麼匱乏的話我想對東部的長期發展也是不太健康的是的 那就如委員所說"},{"start":7037.666,"end":7060.423,"text":"但是在這些技術類可能它的基本就是委員所說的還是STAND人才所以我們會希望說是不是我們可以透過教育端還有跟我們原民會來合作可以透過我們在原民的教育體系最好是可以從包含國民教育的階段就開始來把著原民的STAND人才可以成為以後來進入這個"},{"start":7064.597,"end":7067.916,"text":"體系的一個生力軍那當然是如果更好的話是整個東部"},{"start":7068.939,"end":7094.191,"text":"也可以在高等教育出現培育這些技術類科的人才基地所以這個部分是不是可以請你們積極的來跟各部會甚至可以請政委這邊來召開協調相關的這個協調的人才培育的一個長期的計畫要不然考試院是最尾端那你們縱使開出的這些名額結果在前端都已經很匱乏的話可能考選部這邊也是有一些困難吧"},{"start":7095.215,"end":7113.242,"text":"是 就如那個委員所說那其實我們目前我們卡士願的億萬委員也非常重視這個議題那我們有透過我們億萬委員然後跟我們教育部那教育部跟原民會其實也很支持我們的構想那我們希望盡快讓這一個可以在明年的原民的這個"},{"start":7114.198,"end":7132.311,"text":"接下來五年的那個原住民主教育發展計畫裡面列為一個正式的對 因為這個部分本席也非常關心過去在其他委員會針對STEM原名STEM的這個人才的培育已經也提出很多次的這個質詢那我們希望在整個體系能夠連動就像你剛才也講到的"},{"start":7132.651,"end":7152.735,"text":"基礎的叫國教的這個部分其實也要能夠由大學這邊來一起拉抬那這樣在你們的這個考試類科裡面才不會常常出現不足額就算有的人才呢那回到原鄉的這個比例也不太高所以就線型的制度是不是可以先考量一下這個考題命題的這個內容的監測程度"},{"start":7153.315,"end":7168.785,"text":"針對原鄉的一個特考的這個部分那另外長期來講考試院可以更積極的來跟相關部會針對人才把這個一系列都補足那我們就不會有開出這樣子的缺額可是卻也沒有人來考的一個狀況好不好"},{"start":7169.966,"end":7185.542,"text":"那這個部分也請這個考選部那積極的列出一個時程那我們這樣子才比較有效度的能夠將原命的人才來補齊那很重要的就公務體系是國家運轉的一個機制那但是如果考不到又補不上"},{"start":7185.962,"end":7203.933,"text":"留不住那整個體系就會慢慢失能所以請部長盡快的來召開這樣一個協調會議至少能夠讓我們原鄉的青年看到新的一個希望好 謝謝部長接下來我很快的跟秘書長這邊我要提醒一件事情"},{"start":7205.094,"end":7227.264,"text":"那個我們知道在國家考試電子證書部長您請回接下來我就針對這個考試電子證書服務推廣的這個成效的問題來跟您提出一些建議我們根據報告指出考選部開辦的這個國家考試及格證書服務網以來整個使用率有點偏低"},{"start":7228.044,"end":7234.171,"text":"所以在2023年的報告裡面指出到112年8月底下載電子證書的總次數只有27310次相較於你們核發的32267張證書"},{"start":7242.961,"end":7260.893,"text":"平均每一張沒有到一次的下載而線上申辦的也只有24.67%也就是說四分之三的考生也是仍然選擇紙本申辦我相信你們這樣子一個利益良好可是在執行上是不是有一些沒有達到的一個部分"},{"start":7261.633,"end":7279.509,"text":"因為在113年8月底下載的次數達到6萬多次但是核發的7萬多張證書相比還是沒有達到1比1的水準所以連續兩年大概都沒有辦法達到1比1所以這個電子證書的推動也是你們轉型的業務很重要的其中之一"},{"start":7280.269,"end":7303.775,"text":"我們能夠讓節能省碳成為一個未來的方向但是連兩年這樣推廣的不足的情況下是不是在制度設計跟使用者的體驗上有一些差異所以有三個問題就是說考試院是不是能夠檢視操作流程直覺性或介面的友善度這常常是大家公佈你們裡面一個普遍的問題"},{"start":7305.976,"end":7327.575,"text":"但是有許多機關企業也是仍然要求資本的驗證是不是這中間讓考生會覺得電子版不實用第二個部分你們現在有沒有計畫如何提升普及率最後是考試院是不是要積極的宣導電子證書的法律效力這個數位轉型也才能夠落實秘書長這邊"},{"start":7328.616,"end":7347.677,"text":"我簡單跟委員說明委員您剛剛所有的建議我們前面都有做我有一個誤解我可能要跟您說明我們的制度是這樣你一定要繳電子證書的錢100塊錢的成本然後它一定會有電子證書但是如果你需要紙本證書你就額外申請"},{"start":7348.778,"end":7367.854,"text":"我們一直在試圖降低就是宣導說大家用電子證書就好不一定要來申請資本因為資本成本也貴500元可是這中間可能是這個企業跟公部門他們能夠接受的比例比較低所以我們這個都有在宣導告訴大家說你只要有電子而且電子證書也方便驗證有些人只能為了留紀念可能"},{"start":7368.414,"end":7381.37,"text":"基於各種原因他想要覺得考上了很不容易要留一個紙本他不在乎500塊但是我跟您報告現在電子證書就是說你考上了你一定拿到電子證書可是有額外申請紙本證書的比例都在20%以下"},{"start":7383.001,"end":7398.068,"text":"就是說大家對於電子證書的使用普遍率不高第一個是這樣那您講到說為什麼它沒有每一個人都下載因為它不一定需要下載的時候它不會立刻下載我發出去之後它也許真的需要的時候它才會去下載"},{"start":7399.348,"end":7422.943,"text":"第二個是說他可能有申請資本證書的人他也不會去下載所以這個部分我覺得是看使用者個人的習慣但是我們的成效是展現在說現在所有考生及格者 入取者有申請資本證書的都已經不到20%所以已經一路這樣下降我們觀察今年的趨勢還有稍微降得更低"},{"start":7423.423,"end":7444.031,"text":"所以你們是從大家申請紙本的這個申請率來看待但是您剛才提到一點也就表示八成以上的人都接受只有電子證書了所以其中有一點就是說他如果現在沒有需要他就不會去下載那你們是不是可以從這個下載率看他的一個普遍性我想應該你們可以從這樣一個因素裡面去做一些調查有的時候他不需要下載"},{"start":7444.551,"end":7467.402,"text":"譬如說我以護理師考試來講護理師考試我們入局者其實他們直接發到衛福部去衛福部給他們職業證書他有了職業證書其實他不用有考試及格證書所以他不用自己去給予這個證書的證明嗎對 他也不需要自己拿去那邊申請他的職業證照他直接從衛福部這邊去檢視就好了對 我們會直接跟衛福部做因為我們希望他迅速拿到證照可以直接去"},{"start":7467.782,"end":7493.401,"text":"那你們是不是可以針對本席所講的這樣一個我們做一個完整的說明對 針對這個部分然後還有針對你們去這個研考的因素中間的一個差距那這個本席要知道這個差距沒有問題好嗎好的 謝謝謝謝林慶琴委員的發言那麼也請移民署長這邊之後提供報告給林委員 謝謝接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":7500.493,"end":7511.219,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們考試院劉秘書長好 請劉秘書長還有考選部劉部長請劉部長權序部我們施部長好 請委員長"},{"start":7517.697,"end":7544.906,"text":"民務長還有兩位部長我想我延續剛剛有委員提到的問題再來追問你像我們這一次的預算中心有提到這個是公務人員高資低用這個人數我看剛剛召委他也很關心但是這個預算中心這種寫法會產生很大的一個誤解有時候會造成說我領比較高的薪水然後去降調這好像有點偷懶"},{"start":7546.026,"end":7574.728,"text":"這個我們在鄉下其實我們碰到很多很多人是因為我在職場上沒有這樣的一個職缺或者說我就很想回到我自己的故鄉有的人夫妻相隔兩地其實很重要的一個觀念這個反而去降調人在我所碰到的一個服務案件的案例裡面常常都是對職場上是最負責任的人對制度負責"},{"start":7576.479,"end":7596.46,"text":"我要到其他的地方去我只好降掉這個對制度就是負責他也對他的家庭負責我要照顧我的父母親我要照顧我的家庭因素很多我反而會覺得說升官 升到最高的人"},{"start":7597.728,"end":7616.978,"text":"官場未必就只有升官你專業能力被肯定當然是升官可是很多性盡之徒都升官他未必是有責任的而這是降調的人他是更有責任默默在貢獻出他的一個專業所以我反而會覺得說這個預算中心這種寫法這個只是一語之鑑那但是本身有個看法"},{"start":7619.506,"end":7636.495,"text":"這預算中心點出這樣一個問題那是不是我們也應該去檢討目前降調制度它的一個考慮去設置一個制度說如何去當作植物的一個轉換"},{"start":7637.896,"end":7657.465,"text":"或者說彈性配置的一個制度出來讓這個降調的人他變成說他又不失去他的專業還有對整個他職務上這樣的一個熱忱為這個職場來做出貢獻我不曉得三位的看法是怎麼樣謝謝委員對這個議題的關心特別您來自南台灣我理解"},{"start":7665.469,"end":7679.416,"text":"我常常碰到啊所以我剛剛有回答說這個報告本身可能寫事實但是有很多複雜的原因啦所以對於降調的人本身很多降調會減錢耶有的就沒有主管家籍啦或者說沒有專業家籍啦"},{"start":7684.959,"end":7702.61,"text":"每個個案不一樣我應該這樣講可能在不同地區去做降調或者你降調到學校或降調到行政機關這樣都是沒有人的選擇啦應該這樣講啦所以啦我的意思是說預算中心講也不是全部都不對那翁委員關心的也不是不對但只是說我們要怎麼樣來設計出一個制度讓說"},{"start":7707.393,"end":7714.896,"text":"我就有這樣的一個專長可是呢 我又沒有這樣的一個職缺我又必須要去降調這個就可惜了你有沒有感覺說我們公務體系裡面應該有一個制度我們是有一個事求人人求事的公開找人的制度都會上網啦是就在 那是那個"},{"start":7728.857,"end":7756.39,"text":"蘇俊榮任市長他們那個Apple的一個事求人人求事其實很多公務人員要找缺他都一定要公告他就去那邊看但重點是現在的結果就是導出預算中心給你點出有這麼多人去降調還是要想辦法解決好不好好 我們會再繼續來是的 好好研議看看那我想另外一個問題要請教就是說韓國現在一個國營的資料中心期會"},{"start":7757.662,"end":7780.157,"text":"那結果呢這個造成19萬名公務人員的資料全數就遺失這顯示這其實就是說它這整個數位的基礎建設缺乏備援跟災難的復原的一個機制這場火裡面它不是只有燒掉伺服器燒出了制度上的漏洞我看它這次647個系統裡面說只有20倍的有災難備援的一個計畫這個其實不是只有韓國的問題"},{"start":7788.224,"end":7794.841,"text":"這個是全世界政府的一個警訊所以我要請教我們考試院的說我們的資通的韌性"},{"start":7796.262,"end":7809.107,"text":"我們有沒有準備好事我們考試院跟全序部還有考選部我們現在在推動全面的一個數位化這個方向我相信大家都知道很正確但是我們這個系統我們有沒有安全這也就是說我們這些國家級的一個系統裡面有沒有定期的一個災難的一個復原的一個演練那備援系統的復原"},{"start":7820.612,"end":7837.944,"text":"它的覆蓋率到底會是多少 會不會像韓國那樣 要收了 要收了之後要六七八的 還要存二十幾個 變成它覆蓋率就這麼的少那意思就是說 世界上韓國這樣 整個的系統有備援其他好像都裸奔一樣 請具體回答"},{"start":7840.183,"end":7858.638,"text":"考選部是那個治安A級單位意思是我們必須每年接受是全國最高等級的檢視基本上我所說的大概是幾個原則1D存放 1D備援所以覆蓋率是百分之百基本上我們的關鍵核心資料一定必須做到1D存放跟1D備援"},{"start":7860.13,"end":7885.187,"text":"異地就是一定要在不同的地方我在當律師的時候 我常常跟當事人大家想一想 有天不順的就是說監獄裡面關那麼多人訴訟階段有那麼多人那麼多犯罪的嫌疑人那有一天 不管是法務部或司法院資料中心全部被牽掉了資料都收掉了之後我看你裡面的犯人要怎麼樣要被告也要怎麼樣全部大家都不擔心"},{"start":7887.108,"end":7891.693,"text":"我曾經去想過這樣的一個問題啦那所以其實就是一個備援的制度過去就資本嘛你現在都數位化嘛那所以部長你的想法是說現在全部我們的覆蓋率百分之百對 一定要至少關鍵核心之下一定要異地存放跟異地備援"},{"start":7904.466,"end":7928.795,"text":"那這個做了就不錯了年度要演練所以沒有問題就對了那很好啊那我接下來要請教一個問題就是說我們現在談說電腦化的一個測試考選部你在115年度全區部部長請回115年度要擴大辦理新增的驗光師 驗光生還有第三次護理師還有司法官跟律師的第二次"},{"start":7929.535,"end":7954.875,"text":"這個方向都對代表國家邁向一個數位的一個時代但是我要請問的就是說這些考區裡面我們有沒有去做過壓力測試或模擬演練如果發生技術故障有沒有明確應變的SOP來 請博長你回跟委員報告有但是所以我們現在其實最主要就是要處理私立二因為私立二是深論題而且它是基本上是競爭性的考試"},{"start":7955.535,"end":7980.285,"text":"所以你們全部都有沒有 私立二環最重要要處理的那個它的演練說要避免有電力異常所以我們會在私立二環我們會有核心市場我們核心市場考試的時候會全部被發電機我都沒什麼想法我可以請委員到時候來看我現在沒什麼想法你知道嗎你要想我們在建立國家電腦的市場裡面你現在金門也有那"},{"start":7982.594,"end":7997.271,"text":"我看從台北考區 桃園 新竹 台中 台南 高雄 屏東 花蓮金門也都有啦我要請教就是說金門在那裡離島嘛 不要讓人家奔波嘛台東為什麼沒有"},{"start":7998.633,"end":8019.879,"text":"台東也兩個里島主要是他的學校他缺乏可以讓我們設置這個市場的學校所以我們的要求就是說你必須要在最好是在同一個資訊大樓有足夠的電腦那目前台中比較缺乏這樣的學校我覺得這樣就不對了我覺得這樣就不對了考卷部我們也去補助了很多大學敢設置這些電腦市場"},{"start":8021.449,"end":8045.63,"text":"台東也有台東大學這樣我覺得怎麼好像是你缺了台東這個就不太對你現在拿了200台電腦去那個是要建置整個行動化電腦市場其實那規格老實說比一般的規格更高更安全我的意思就是說缺台東我就覺得不對"},{"start":8047.092,"end":8068.729,"text":"因為他也有蘭嶼他也有列島也有這些離島的考生他必須要去應試那你這一次你說電腦市場裡面你給台東考區你給他200台電腦不是給他是我們直接去那裡設一個行動你設了 你如果要停電你如果斷線筆電最不怕停電筆電是這樣 對我們每一個筆電會配兩到三個電源你如果斷線"},{"start":8073.212,"end":8078.036,"text":"筆電當然他未必是要插電啦電腦有膠當然就可以啦但是問題我的意思是萬一斷線又一設備出問題那你怎麼辦我要說的就是說他畢竟跟國家電腦市場來做比較的話對考生權益來講的話他還是不夠周延啦"},{"start":8093.836,"end":8113.308,"text":"跟委員報告我們的筆電的行動一定是完全按照我們現在的所有的這個規格但是如果說能夠有學校來提供固定位置當然更好所以如果說在這一點的話就是說有辦法能夠有學校來出現來合格的一個學校那我們非常樂觀其成"},{"start":8115.312,"end":8127.164,"text":"不要只說樂觀其成啦我是認為說這個講法都會覺得說好像讓台東去自生自滅啦你要到大學裡面如果有那個比較好的設備啊我要考選部加我當然樂觀其成這樣怎麼好"},{"start":8129.927,"end":8143.392,"text":"以國家電腦市場來講的話 針對全國各地的考生他權益站在考選部的立場 你要一併去跟他做保障你國家要數位化 要數位化 台東要看你喔 看你自己喔你自己如果更進步 台北的設備如果更好 考選部我在這裡 樂觀其成喔好 弄一個 我覺得這個態度不好"},{"start":8154.966,"end":8175.113,"text":"每一個大學來電腦 他們有夠那個設備的時候你們就會去補助他設置這個國家電腦市場所以欠台東我會覺得偏鄉的地方用這種臨時的方案這樣子硬撐對整個公職或者說專業認證的一些考試對這些考生來講的話"},{"start":8179.537,"end":8207.125,"text":"更不好的就是說你國家電腦的一個市場這個是整個數位國家的一個基本建設我認為那是一個投資建設的話我們在那邊講智能政府智能政府阿嘎基全台灣大家都智能電都政府台東不用變智能的一個政府要智能的政府我看我們就從智慧考試開始好不好"},{"start":8209.638,"end":8212.849,"text":"我簡單補充一下第一個就是說我們對電腦市場的設置"},{"start":8217.133,"end":8242.343,"text":"考試院的資源很有限他可以投資基本的設備但是他還需要學校本身有足夠的電腦教室現在在台中用行動的方式來處理其實也是彌補當地資源的不足這是考選部的努力委員希望能夠有一個穩定的比如說在那邊設置一個就是固定的電腦市場的話看怎麼樣有爭取到更多的資源我們一起來努力"},{"start":8243.163,"end":8261.41,"text":"秘書長 我的概念不只這樣不只是說那個地方的設備把它弄好是我們政府的政策你要推數位化的話偏鄉你就不能把它給漏掉你要智能政府 你要數位化你說靠一下 缺了一腳"},{"start":8262.951,"end":8274.954,"text":"這樣不好啦對制度的一個投資這不是浪費啦更何況這是政府在對我們一直在談數位的一個轉型結果你讓偏鄉的考生沒有辦法站在同一條起跑線上我認為這個政府要趕快去做一個改善好不好把他當成重要的事情啦只欠一支那錢不會花多少啦秘書長 保證你們想辦法立法院那我告訴你"},{"start":8289.438,"end":8316.189,"text":"這附近兩個省委都有夠閒聊的 都挺你啦我跟翁省委都挺你 台東緊衝一下 好不好可以嗎這個我們再去跟您報告和緊衝衝 數位政府偏鄉的地方沒有跟上這個就是假的那是國家對制度的一個投資我們把這個整個數位政府高唱露營結果說那個地方台東人跟你講說你唬爛 我這邊又沒有不好 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":8318.358,"end":8331.541,"text":"謝謝莊委員我也非常支持莊委員的建議我想應該要把所謂數位普及數位化的程度偏鄉跟都市都一定的拉起所以也希望考學部考試院這裡能夠努力加把勁接下來請審判會委員發言"},{"start":8352.252,"end":8357.899,"text":"主席我們先請秘書長那我是不是也請這個保訓會的蔡主委委員長秘書長早"},{"start":8366.813,"end":8393.152,"text":"這個我等一下這個有關的相關問題一些原則性的部分請秘書長回答那一些細節執行的部分可能請保全會主委這邊來答覆這個關於我們今天業務報告在第二頁的時候提到我這邊所列出來了有關於這個因為我們今年在今年的這個6月24號本院通過這個公務人員保障法的這個修正"},{"start":8394.417,"end":8417.12,"text":"那公布之後預計在明年的1月9號部分條文在明年1月9號開始實施了那也有半年的時間但是這個根據這個修法這個6月的修法這個裡面的第19條的第一項的授權我們有關這個"},{"start":8419.2,"end":8439.772,"text":"這個公務人員的這個安全衛生防護辦法公會辦法我們事實上是在緊接著我們在6月今年的6月29號就已經做修正那7月1號就開始實施了對不對那這個我看了你們的這些書面報告還有相關的這些新聞稿"},{"start":8446.298,"end":8470.969,"text":"以及相關的這些修法說明這個部分我想這個公衛辦法確實是在公務人員反霸凌的部分霸凌的防治一個非常重要的法令也是重要的機制這個部分那時候我們在修法的時候本院也通過了許多決議跟附帶決議"},{"start":8472.25,"end":8492.854,"text":"我就一一檢視看我們這個當時的這些附帶決議做的其實我們考試院這邊其實我看是基本上該做的是做的相當的完備完備但是因為畢竟新法上路這部分我有一些部分要來跟這個我們考試院來這邊來了解一下我們這次這個"},{"start":8496.857,"end":8516.405,"text":"安慰辦法這個有關修法的部分說名稱也改了應該是按照依照19條的文字這公務人員保障法19條文字所以我們加上這個執行職務安全的部這幾個字這符合這個法令的授權大概有幾個比較重要的機制其中一個"},{"start":8518.24,"end":8534.772,"text":"一個就是必須要召開這個安全衛生諮詢會這是一個另外一個這個有關申訴機制的建立最重要的一個新建的我一個有關落實足跡監督檢查跟通報制度這部分過去沒有"},{"start":8535.752,"end":8564.671,"text":"也就是說有關於這些公務人員安全衛生防護的部分必須要足及定期專案安全抽檢對不對這部分是新的因為我們這個已經7月1號就已經開始實施其他我們這個是公務人保障法上面授權的一個執法這個執法之下安危辦法本身它又必須要配合許多配套的這些法規必須要修改"},{"start":8565.832,"end":8590.769,"text":"那我看你們這邊你們的這個保訓會的這些業務報告裡面也說明的蠻清楚一些相關的這些執法配套措施你們大概也都做了修正包括這個健康檢查實施要點這些這個職場霸凌的防治處理原則包括這個安全衛生設施管理要點包括這個安全衛生防護抽查作業實施要點等等這些相關執法你們都已經做修正"},{"start":8592.19,"end":8604.048,"text":"我現在要了解這個部分看是秘書長回答或是保訓會主委來回答因為我們按照這個我們現在所修訂的這個安慰辦法裡面的第四條"},{"start":8605.475,"end":8627.97,"text":"有規定第四條規定的是有關於這個這個安全衛生諮詢會的設置你們用的這個這個文字是主管機關得聘請也就得設置諮詢會諮詢會是得設置啦要不要設置不曉得那第五條的部分是這個安全衛生防護委員會這個是應設立每個機關都應該設立"},{"start":8631.007,"end":8660.06,"text":"那這個從7月1號到現在7月1號實施到現在已經10月今天已經10月9號了嘛今天10月9號了那實施到現在現行的這個中央部會跟地方政府機關是不是都已經按照這個規定成立了這個衛生防護委員會這部分能不能說明一下我們有沒有這個盤點我們有沒有去看目前所有的中央跟地方的這些相關機關是不是都已經設立了這個防護委員會"},{"start":8663.027,"end":8683.465,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的這個之前的支持跟關心那首先就是說有關於各主管機關是不是已經設立的這個諮詢委員會因為就是誠如委員講我們在法律上是得但是我們有通函是希望而且是強烈的建議各主管機關應該設我先問防護委員會這個是"},{"start":8684.646,"end":8698.632,"text":"防務委員會是應設立的應設立的現在目前中央機關跟地方機關是不是全部都已經設立了跟委員報告目前大部分機關有設立然後我們在9月23號已經發了一個全國性的通函請各機關在這個月底"},{"start":8701.053,"end":8709.486,"text":"之前要把我們所列出來的數十項有關安慰對 數十項數十項的這個check list就是說該做的事項都要來告訴我們到底"},{"start":8716.936,"end":8735.894,"text":"已完成跟未完成那未完成的原因是什么我现在只问设立你们有没有去掌握追踪中央跟地方机关现在是不是都已经依照安慰办法第五条都已经设置了法务委员会我们有大部分都设立了但是更具体的有没有设立的"},{"start":8736.794,"end":8756.721,"text":"這個我們要在10月31號的時候可以把統計的數字具體的提供給委員這部分我是覺得你們積極一點你們現在已經7月1號實施到現在10月了又不是說一個月的時間而已現在到底全國而且這個是依照你們安慰辦法修訂的它應該要設立安慰防護委員會"},{"start":8761.775,"end":8786.934,"text":"那到現在到底有哪一些機關還沒有設立這個你們應該掌握吧你們是主管機關呢是 那謝謝委員提醒那我們今天會後呢會再發一次的通函希望他們能夠在更早就在10月31號以前就把這個數字都通通回填給我們他到底是不是已經成立了有沒有開過會這個我們保健委員會都應該要掌握是 有 目前有在追蹤"},{"start":8789.129,"end":8815.871,"text":"這個你們這個要長期你不是說發函請他們回函你們應該要去了解這個不難嘛這不難 這全國各機關你們就去了解他到底是不是已經依照第五條先了解他到底設置了沒有 設立了沒有那你這個因設立的你都還沒有全部掌握那諮詢會你們可能這邊手上現在也沒有資料吧到底有哪些機關成立了這個安全"},{"start":8817.012,"end":8833.982,"text":"這個安全及衛生的諮詢會這個德設立的諮詢會你們到底有多少機關成立的這個我們因為它是德但是我們有強烈的建議應該要設那這個是不是請容我們會後跟提供這個具體的數字給委員"},{"start":8836.577,"end":8847.228,"text":"你們事實上現在連設立的還是沒有設立你們也不清楚所以他的這些委員到底是誰這些各個機關的委員是誰你們現在也應該手上也沒有資料是不是"},{"start":8849.945,"end":8868.864,"text":"各機關的防護委員會它組成的是哪些委員內部的我們可能可以掌握但是它外部的部分這是各機關它自己的決定權我知道是他們決定權我只是說你們到底知不知道誰是委員哪一個機關的委員會的委員你們手上有沒有名單"},{"start":8870.405,"end":8891.728,"text":"跟委員報告因為全國的機關數非常多這個目前我們手上沒有這個各機關的組成委員到底是哪些人我是認為你們應該要掌握包括每一個機關它所成立的這個安全防護委員會的這些委員到底是誰他們到底聘請哪些人做委員不管是內部的外部的我覺得你們都應該至少要有一份名單"},{"start":8892.369,"end":8911.361,"text":"好 謝謝委員提醒那我們在之後回去會在這個檢核表上面請各機關盡可能的提供給我們 謝謝因為你們也提到你們這個因為這個新制安全及衛生防護的新制上路所以你們積極辦理宣導是你們說你們從6月跟7月之間在北中南地區總共辦了6場"},{"start":8912.862,"end":8924.701,"text":"六個場次的大型宣導是參加人數有1118人是所以我現在要問的問題你可能應該沒有辦法回答這1118個人裡面有多少人他實際上是各機關的安全防護委員"},{"start":8926.093,"end":8947.248,"text":"跟委員報告我們這1118人主要在這一波裡面呢都是屬於各機關呢他要承辦這個安全衛生跟職場霸凌的這個案件的主要承辦人但是對但是他們一定都是這個委員之一但是呢我們在"},{"start":8948.694,"end":8970.741,"text":"這個明年已經要啟動就是所有各機關的安全及衛生防護委員會的每一個委員都要來參訊而且必須要經過測試及格這樣子啦 這個部分這樣問起來你們現在事實上都還沒有掌握啦還沒有全盤的掌握啦那畢竟是新法啦不過我希望你們在一個月內就全國各機關這個案有關"},{"start":8973.543,"end":8978.871,"text":"這個安慰防護委員會他的成員跟他參加這個防護的這些職場霸凌防治訓練的狀況"},{"start":8980.748,"end":9004.729,"text":"提出一個書面報告可以嗎在一個月內說明他還有包括這些授訊包括他的授訊的比例他的期程他後續的這些追蹤機制我希望你們提出一個書面報告好 謝謝委員再來你們也應該要這個書面報告裡面請你們掌握你們還沒有設置的機關有哪一些機關到現在10月了還沒有設置這個安慰防治"},{"start":9005.45,"end":9028.147,"text":"委員會還沒有成立的有哪一些機關還沒有完成設立如果說到現在我假設從7月1號實施到現在這過程中因為這個機關沒有設立安全防護委員會所以如果發生職場霸凌在這段期間發生職場霸凌他必須要向哪一個單位負責有哪一個單位負責受理跟調查"},{"start":9028.889,"end":9053.035,"text":"跟我們報告這段時間呢過渡時期他因為7月1號以後呢其實已經沒有在所謂的他可以過渡的所以基本上只要他有發生這樣子的事件他一定就要設立了因為他要先設立才能夠決定受理我剛問你你也不知道哪些機關現在目前機關設立了沒有萬一我現在在我的職場就發生霸凌了結果我的機關還沒有成立這個防護委員會那我怎麼辦"},{"start":9057.278,"end":9079.188,"text":"當發生這樣子的案子的時候機關就一定要立即成立其實按照公務人員保障法第19條之二的第三項跟第四項就是你們保訓會主管如果現在這個機關還沒有成立這個防護委員會我就直接向你們保訓會來提出你們保訓會就必須要接受這個負責這個受理跟調查"},{"start":9082.734,"end":9103.084,"text":"是所以你們如果沒有掌握各個機關到底現在多少機關已經設立安慰防護委員會的話你就會遇到這個狀況這部分請你們這個在一個月內提書面報告給我啦好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝沈委員那接下來我們就請烏思瑤委員好 謝謝"},{"start":9114.804,"end":9116.285,"text":"請劉秘書長委員長秘書長早 大家辛苦了今天我的質詢是新會期的第一次那也剛好是這個時間點我要給出我的兩個肯定跟一個呼籲肯定我們的心理架要上路了就在明天也肯定我們的永續報告書終於出爐了好 下一頁"},{"start":9139.093,"end":9154.07,"text":"首先新理假這個在立法院我真的是率先倡議到現在教育先行公務機關來接力教育部呢高中職全上路大學現在從兩個學校我一開始倡議到現在一百二十七個學校都有"},{"start":9154.731,"end":9184.16,"text":"所以呢學校有了關心學生的心理健康公務機關是第二個接力的我質詢了人事處長也四次質詢考試院相關的包括師部長也四次加起來終於看到一個好的結果所以說我要提醒喔明天正式上路嘛對不對秘書長是明天那一個價別的反應不只是給需要的同仁一個滿足他的需求"},{"start":9184.864,"end":9213.982,"text":"更重要的是藉由這個價別讓我們所有的公務體系的同仁能夠去關懷彼此關照到誰也許在面臨的身心重大的壓力這些執行我當然會跟人事總署分享但是我想你們也是掌管公務同仁所有的相關事項我給予肯定但是不要忘了他不是只多一個價他有他背後來建構賴清德總統健康台灣"},{"start":9214.813,"end":9230.625,"text":"尤其Mental Health的這個部分考試員有什麼新的想法嗎其實我想各機關因為都有員工協助的措施這個部分應該持續來強化因為心理健康這個我想大家越來越重視越來越了解這個事情的存在其實這個價別的存在"},{"start":9231.385,"end":9250.39,"text":"就可以讓我們有一個多的工具去觀察誰請了這個假他也許正面臨著他心理健康的suffer需要我們出手來相助我肯定你們感謝你們明天就要上路這是所有公務機關的好消息下一個呢我手上拿的是考試院終於也有永續報告書"},{"start":9252.459,"end":9275.744,"text":"這個行政院永續會要求所有的二級機關地方政府都要有那我是非常關心永續政策所以我過去在教育文化委員會我發現中研院居然沒有後來中研院也加入了我轉到司法法治委員會我發現總統府也沒有總統府現在也加入那我謝謝考試院不再缺一角正式加入謝謝你們你有看這個報告書嗎"},{"start":9278.125,"end":9304.347,"text":"有裡面你們在有18項工作要對應於聯合國教科文組織的17個發展指標很好我也會定期來管考下一頁那除了考試員有永續報告之外我們的國家基金的主管機關也要有我也在質詢台上勞動基金 郵儲基金都有永續報告書你們的退伏基金有了嗎"},{"start":9307.903,"end":9332.802,"text":"應該是上上禮拜我才看到那個初稿已經交給我了好 我跟你報告就在今天就在今天所以今天交委安排這個時間非常好來質詢你們我也就是肯定你們就在今天退府基金的永續報告書今天出爐我早上要去要你們的同仁說因為很厚一本很用心我想要提供給我們所有司法法治委員會關心的委員好嗎"},{"start":9333.542,"end":9360.511,"text":"那退伏基金的永續報告書內涵很重要的是什麼下一頁就是我們的投資的碳足跡的這個部分要列進去我當初揭露的四大基金的投資碳足跡居然退伏基金是最高的換言之有一個永續報告書就可以透過公開揭露去檢視你們的投資在符合時代永續潮流的產業這個會watch嗎對不對我們會努力好 下一頁"},{"start":9361.877,"end":9380.937,"text":"那這也是國際的趨勢我就不贅述好 下一頁所以說再次感謝今天出爐以後我也會follow也希望我們的退府基金真的是用在正確的投資之外產生必要的效益之外要讓它永續就你們的永續報告書裡頭"},{"start":9382.839,"end":9409.156,"text":"的第十七項工作 對不起 第十二項工作強化公務人員退府基金及儲金運用的收益要打造長期穩健及永續經營的年金退休的機制這就是對應於聯合國的指標第十項的減少不平等以及要打造一個和平正義的社會制度"},{"start":9410.257,"end":9436.167,"text":"所以在做基金永續照顧退休的穩健是世界的趨勢但是呢下一頁我很遺憾這個會期我們的年改已經有幾個法案即將可能快速的要被討論我希望充分討論而不是強行碾壓我們看看國民黨的朱立倫主席他說的"},{"start":9437.515,"end":9463.808,"text":"現在有通膨啊生活的需求越來越高啊所以呢再砍年金是不公平的要確保維持退休人員的基本生活所需朱立倫說的他說的成不成立我們現在政策有沒有做到我們等一下可以來討論傅昆齊總召他在開議日說的國民黨第一個優先法案就是公教反年改的法案我真的覺得我們多多朝野合作多多對話不要為快而快"},{"start":9466.813,"end":9486.471,"text":"我們看到在場是羅志強委員也是我們司法法治委員會他現在參選國民黨黨主席他把停侃年金的所得替代率成為他競選黨主席的政見我是覺得年金永續是民生議題不要有政黨的政治化"},{"start":9487.572,"end":9516.04,"text":"當然我們翁曉琳昭偉她也提到說這個會期她擔任昭偉年金改革違反公平正義我要跟昭偉再次的喊話其實年金改革才是真正的落實公平正義我們無論如何期待新的會期司法法治委員會我們讓對話討論來取代過去的強行碾壓這個議題可以討論但真的不要為快而快也是我對翁委員的請求好 下一頁"},{"start":9516.92,"end":9527.231,"text":"我問一下兩位兩個應該世代有一點點差異一個我叫老師一個我叫朋友同學老師你一個月基本生活手續要開多少"},{"start":9529.358,"end":9555.66,"text":"我真的不多啦有的探機私人隱私就不方便講我真的不多啦真的不多物資需求不多會超過五萬塊嗎不會啦不會來這個祕書長你跟我年紀比較相仿你的世代你的基本生活所需是多少方便透露的話我好像沒有算你好像沒有算因為都老婆在替你管對不對"},{"start":9557.904,"end":9561.969,"text":"會超過五萬嗎你個人的基本生活所需就是量入為出啦"},{"start":9562.512,"end":9589.328,"text":"量入位出我們要回答好像老婆虧待你的感覺其實對於剛剛朱立倫主席說的現在的通膨啦生活的指數啦如果年金繼續的砍下去呢所得替代率呢不停的話呢會影響退休公務同仁的基本生活所需我認為就要去定義基本生活所需是多少是合理的"},{"start":9590.288,"end":9610.163,"text":"我這裡有一個衛福部公告的六都還有全台灣的2025年的最低生活費它是一個參照我們不是說每個人都要過得這麼辛苦我不是而是說以這個官方的數字統計的最低生活費的統計首都貴了一點要每個月要兩萬"},{"start":9611.371,"end":9640.257,"text":"其他的六都除了台南大概一萬五千元之外其他的六都新北 桃園 台中 高雄大概都落在一萬六這是一個全國的數字的統整非六都的平均生活的基本的生活需支大概算出來是一萬五但是我們就要來看看剛剛朱立倫主席說的現在的退府如果不停砍的話他們的退休金是沒有辦法支應他的基本生活所需的"},{"start":9641.944,"end":9670.419,"text":"現在的公教來請部長公務人員跟教育人員平均我這邊有試算他的月退的這個所得大概是多少我的數字正確嗎去年在跟公聽會的時候我們也有根據那時候的大概去年的一個數字去做一個平均值大概應該都有超過五萬塊平均值教育人員會高一點"},{"start":9671.175,"end":9695.377,"text":"我這裡整理的數字公務人員是最新的數字是五萬五零六五六元一個月一個人教育人員的退休分是五七九七三其實都遠高於國家所試算的生活費的這一個range當然我說我們不是每個人都要過得很辛苦但是也不是每個人都要過得很"},{"start":9696.59,"end":9716.068,"text":"超出基本需求之外那兩位又可以分享一下嗎我們五萬在公務人員教育人員有五萬七的退休的平均那勞保呢勞工呢這是我現在走到哪面對最大的問題我想朝偉可能也會面對選民這樣的一個詢問"},{"start":9718.058,"end":9730.297,"text":"老保加勞退平均的月退休的所得我們比一比就知道大概不會超過兩萬五所以比起來的話公教"},{"start":9731.477,"end":9757.992,"text":"是高出我們的勞工朋友兩倍以上那麼回到我說的基本生活所需的這一個衡量的標準如果說一個五萬多以上的退休縫還難以維持基本生活我覺得這個命題是值得我們在就社會的各個層面去理解下一頁"},{"start":9759.884,"end":9780.96,"text":"尤其我們當初修法的時候就已經針對所謂的通膨啦所謂的這個社會的不斷的進步發展啦我們各大的社會保險是不是都有一個一致的退休金的這個彈性調整的機制對不對部長當初修法的時候我們在年改的時候就考慮了嘛我們的規定是CPI的多少"},{"start":9782.695,"end":9810.475,"text":"5%嘛 政府累積5%政府累積5%都要檢討只要他是A or B嘛對不對CPI 5%或是每四年就一定對不對A and B啦 都要所以這五年來的退休金的調漲我算了基於這一個檢討評估的機制CPI跟著成長 還有加上加薪大概調了6% 是不是沒有錯 我們調了兩次"},{"start":9812.051,"end":9832.091,"text":"所以說配合物價定期檢討來保障退休人員的基本生活所需跟符合社會的期待的這件事情我們當初年改的時候就考慮了最後一頁我看最後一頁就好我後面還有很多今天就不講對不起不是看國際國際OECD國家的平均所得替代率的平均數是50.7%"},{"start":9835.407,"end":9849.384,"text":"OECD国家50.7%台湾的话以2025年所得替代率66%年改66%为例但是因为我们是本凤两倍用分母来算其实我们实质月退是高达77.9%"},{"start":9851.647,"end":9867.057,"text":"已限在2025年所以台灣的公教的實質越退的所得替代率是高達77.9%遠高於OECD國家的50.7%所以我希望這個議題我們真的可以專業的理性的好好來討論最後一頁"},{"start":9869.059,"end":9889.852,"text":"這是民生議題年改是民生議題年改是國家的永續年改是世代的正義我們讓民生第一我聽到在野黨的委員也都說這個會期要民生第一如果要民生第一的話我們就優先來推動民生的法案或是讓民生的法案能夠落實政黨的合作而不是政治的對抗"},{"start":9890.552,"end":9916.697,"text":"我希望新會期我們在司法法治委員會列下這樣子的互相勉勵的目標年改是民生請將民生議案適用政黨合作的方式而不是對抗的方式來推動我們理性的我一直在對著翁委員喊話希望朝委再安排後續我知道您可能安排公聽會啦相關的討論讓我們的多元的意見可以被彰顯我們理性來看待年改的相關議案謝謝部長謝謝秘書長謝謝大家"},{"start":9921.185,"end":9931.312,"text":"謝謝吳委員確實我接下來可能就會安排有關於公教人員退休金年改的再改革的公聽會那到時候我想會有很多方的意見那麼這個議題我認為說其實已經也到了一個時機點應該可以再重新的"},{"start":9937.545,"end":9952.596,"text":"討論再檢視過去這樣的一個做法是否合理好那接下來呢我們就請陳佩瑜委員發言那我在這裡先做個程序上面的宣告在陳委員詢答完畢之後我們先休息五分鐘沒有因為後面還有我本來以為說我本來以為也會"},{"start":9966.983,"end":9977.973,"text":"都沒有休息 五分鐘好好好 那我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答好 謝謝主席那我想先請詮釋部 謝謝"},{"start":9993.486,"end":10015.214,"text":"部長早部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳司堯委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談非常的巧沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛司堯委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲"},{"start":10015.914,"end":10029.946,"text":"跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集語情相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況那我是一個"},{"start":10031.187,"end":10052.732,"text":"比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個那我們如果又來分入職一到五年入職五到十年入職十到十五年十五到二十年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說"},{"start":10053.892,"end":10072.638,"text":"接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同這是我簡單的推論以上我的推論是正確的嗎"},{"start":10074.847,"end":10100.725,"text":"謝謝委員是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜是不是我把事情講清楚好 我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明 謝謝"},{"start":10101.465,"end":10128.307,"text":"因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會 就絕對不會倒"},{"start":10129.554,"end":10151.126,"text":"但是不可能所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓它在138年公務人員138年就歸零 基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束接下來因為我們實施了新制"},{"start":10152.096,"end":10171.315,"text":"就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早"},{"start":10172.591,"end":10190.829,"text":"那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年"},{"start":10195.902,"end":10223.068,"text":"我想我只把這時間點做一個說明我舉134年好了就新制度134年距離現在剛好20年距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年"},{"start":10224.352,"end":10248.183,"text":"就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間"},{"start":10249.793,"end":10275.394,"text":"那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的"},{"start":10276.158,"end":10290.859,"text":"好 部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能到130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情"},{"start":10291.32,"end":10313.982,"text":"歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢 領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能到65歲要退休剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就會領不到錢"},{"start":10315.163,"end":10337.577,"text":"那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡那後面這個大的洞怎麼辦"},{"start":10338.838,"end":10347.413,"text":"我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想就是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題"},{"start":10349.245,"end":10369.948,"text":"所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎"},{"start":10371.607,"end":10387.121,"text":"我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對 我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一是 就是我說的那個期間的心智的那個我也可以透露給你如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是"},{"start":10387.822,"end":10413.059,"text":"那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人"},{"start":10413.419,"end":10433.152,"text":"都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你10年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍"},{"start":10433.652,"end":10453.021,"text":"好 我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的"},{"start":10453.721,"end":10480.749,"text":"我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境"},{"start":10481.189,"end":10484.113,"text":"那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎"},{"start":10486.66,"end":10513.817,"text":"就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛剛在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是 還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題"},{"start":10514.98,"end":10539.969,"text":"我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張"},{"start":10541.329,"end":10555.42,"text":"這個是翁委員之前在司法法制委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員"},{"start":10557.067,"end":10586.133,"text":"當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保障委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意"},{"start":10587.694,"end":10611.787,"text":"這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好 謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前謝謝翁委員 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":10614.144,"end":10617.526,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員那我們現在就休息一下我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10942.659,"end":10955.149,"text":"好 現在休息時間結束 我們就繼續開會那麼先請羅志祥委員發言好 主席有請那個考選部長 權序部長跟保訓會主委我想先請我們的部長 就是那個權序部長"},{"start":10969.936,"end":10972.28,"text":"立法院已經三讀通過警察"},{"start":10973.277,"end":11002.116,"text":"人員人事條例修正案嘛你知道嘛 對不對我知道那讓警察 消防 海巡 移民 空總人員可以提高退休的所得替代率讓他們退休生活更有保障嘛那我知道全區部當時是反對這個立法嘛那現在修法已經通過部長還是維持反對的立場嗎對 我還是維持反對但是我們會根據法律我剛剛已經報告過該我們做的事情我們都在執行中好 非常好你要執行 在執行中"},{"start":11003.086,"end":11013.422,"text":"那我要特別再強調警察 消防 海巡 移民跟空總人員所執行的勤務都是全序部認定高度圍牢職務沒錯 對不對"},{"start":11016.253,"end":11035.271,"text":"圍繞支付認定表對啊所以這也是我們修法的一個原因那麼你像警察踩輪班制作息日夜顛倒還時常要長勤務來停修那因此他們的所得替代率我們有一個特殊的保障"},{"start":11036.171,"end":11055.567,"text":"那這個部分是當初一個立法目的那你也知道內政部警政署統計數字顯示警消的平均死亡年齡是75歲但我們國人平均壽命是81歲相比壽命差距達6年之多那我想請教一下為什麼會差那麼多"},{"start":11058.019,"end":11080.899,"text":"退休以後的平均餘命怎麼做跟很多因素影響不過我跟委員報告那一個數字可能大家可以再做double check一下我印象中我們部裡面掌握的數字應該沒有差到那麼多沒關係 你把數字再給我看好不好你不要口頭說數字不一樣數字拿給我看我們這也是看到政府相關的數字我們才拿出來的"},{"start":11081.9,"end":11103.34,"text":"全序部一再稱危牢職務可以提早退休在職待遇較高可是事實上你沒去想過他們平均壽命為什麼那麼短其實跟他們的勤務有關跟他們職務關係有關不用講別的你拿錦霄來講的話錦霄的殉職的可能性就比一般公務員高得多得多沒錯吧"},{"start":11107.748,"end":11123.554,"text":"我沒有實際的數字但是理論上應該是會那你如果要推翻理論你就實際數字拿出來所以在這邊我要跟部長講為什麼在這些事情的立場上我是立場比較強硬的"},{"start":11124.782,"end":11153.142,"text":"原因就是因為我們就是社會治安就靠警察保護我們都受警察保護的人打火兄弟每次出生入死大家也看到只要他們在火場當中殉職我們所有政府官員排排站全部去攻擊因此對於這些所謂的警消的退休生活的保障我們願意來去這是我們應該要給他的一個退休生活保障的一個"},{"start":11153.942,"end":11182.238,"text":"特別的禮遇但是很遺憾今天我們看到政府處理態度並不相同那這是我們剛剛講就是說如果政府都不願意善待他們最近我們的政府很喜歡講要強化社會韌性跟民防韌性強化社會韌性強化民防韌性對待警消的人員友善一點然後能夠從他們立場多照顧一點"},{"start":11183.496,"end":11209.042,"text":"那不就是一種社會任性跟民防任性的強化嗎那最後我接下來就要問事實上我們為什麼今天通過這個就是警察人人事條例要來去提高他退休後的所得替代率提高他退休的保障今天非常遺憾行政院就跟你講不編預算了"},{"start":11210.209,"end":11229.469,"text":"剛剛你已經講了說 權序部也做好準備啦因為立法院法律通過了嘛你個人反對都有尊重你的反對但立法院今天就是民意機關大家已經通過這個法律我想請教一下部長請問如果行政院不編預算請問你接下來工作怎麼進行啊你能進行嗎"},{"start":11231.326,"end":11246.174,"text":"因為根據我們憲法跟預算法的規定這個所有的中央政府總預算案的編制權是在行政院所以這個是行政院當然啦 我知道所以沒為難你嘛我剛剛質詢有為難你嗎沒有吧沒有預算你也做不了事嘛不是嗎 沒錯吧"},{"start":11247.762,"end":11275.238,"text":"我們就是按照我們該做的事情這事應該也沒有為難你啦這事你就回答就做不了事就對了啦你沒有預算怎麼做事告訴我你掏腰包嗎 部長你會掏腰包嗎這樣你掏腰包也不公平嘛 對不對所以你就做不了事嘛今天我要特別講為什麼在野黨要提出復議第一個原因就是坦白講我們覺得行政院這樣欺負警校我們是看不下去啦"},{"start":11276.636,"end":11300.663,"text":"全區部都說他們是危險勤務的人員他們對我們國家在前面保障治安保障人民的生命財產安全立法院法律都通過了 我們是民意機關我還是要再次強調我不為難你 不叫你回答行政院現在提這個四線的說法坦白講是在欺騙社會大眾"},{"start":11301.994,"end":11330.53,"text":"因為我相信你當公務員當部長當公務員這麼久我們也是我在政府單位也服務過非常清楚是要實現的程序嘛實現程序很簡單啦行政院是有權實現沒錯啦但是呢在大法官會議做出所謂的緊急處分緊急處分就有凍結法律的效果嘛沒錯吧對不對他做緊急處分他可以凍結這個法律嘛他在做緊急處分之前沒有凍結這法律之前這法律是有效還是無效"},{"start":11332.691,"end":11356.052,"text":"這法律就是有效的那你今天在法律有效的情況下你跟我講說等大法官會議解釋出來你才要編預算這本身就是違憲侵犯立法權的核心更重要我當然知道現在行政院也不在乎立法權可是重點是什麼你也是在欺負我們的警察消防這些危險勤務人員"},{"start":11357.571,"end":11384.601,"text":"同樣的道理這個當然跟權序部可能不是你主管了立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例除了提高自願加級對於訓練勤務繁重的戰鬥部隊弟兄也提高他們的加級這個你總知道吧這個法律通過你知道了雖然不是你們主管啦其實這個情況跟我剛剛前面講的那個警消的狀況是相同的所以結果一樣"},{"start":11385.612,"end":11412.14,"text":"我們行政院還是不編預算啊還是不編預算啊在野黨說真的我們到現在為止都非常善意的像我們本來上禮拜本來有提退回總預算嘛後來我們商量以後跟在野黨商量以後覺得說不要用退回的方式等於讓行政院還可以有個再思考的機會所以我們就是沒有把退回案我們把退回案這個打住"},{"start":11413.404,"end":11442.407,"text":"然後我們現在改用的方式是提出復議提出復議其實用意就是給行政院一個機會不要把今天警消跟軍人的權益當作是一個政治鬥爭的籌碼比方說以軍人來講我們國防預算明年要高達九千四百九十五億佔據率百分之三點三二"},{"start":11443.575,"end":11470.504,"text":"比今年要增加1768億是史上最高但是我們看到行政院還是就是不編軍人的預算事實上我們現在兩岸我覺得我這樣講兩岸之間兵凶戰危大家都擔心戰爭發生的可能性請問部長戰爭發生以後是誰去保家衛國是誰答案應該很清楚吧 部長"},{"start":11474.073,"end":11491.568,"text":"对啊 但最重要在前线冲锋陷阵守住疆土甚至牺牲生命最重要的最前线是谁 当然是国军嘛没错嘛那这种情况之下而且我们现在国军边线比都不够啊军校招生都越来越少啊"},{"start":11492.881,"end":11514.777,"text":"原因是什麼就是你今天不能夠一直用要他們去付出生命的代價但是又告訴他我不想要改善你的待遇我們今天國民黨其實在野黨就是因為看到兩岸之間可能有戰爭的風險所以今天我們希望能夠給軍人合理的待遇"},{"start":11516.069,"end":11543.099,"text":"让他们觉得今天当然保家卫国是他们光荣的责任他们会这么认为因为我们的军人是有爱国心的可是你也不能是因为他有爱国心就跟我讲说没关系待遇你就不要计较了这是为什么今天我们要提出这个军人待遇条例的一个修正的一个最重要原因所以在这边我真的也表达今天为什么我们今天提出复议案再次请"},{"start":11544.212,"end":11568.472,"text":"我們的行政院可以好好想想我們的軍人警消的一個情況那接下來我就要講就是說我們國民黨團已經將停侃公教年金的公務人員退休之前撫恤法以及公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤法列為本會期的要優先通過的法案 對不對"},{"start":11569.733,"end":11595.077,"text":"我想請教部長你還是反對停侃公教年金嗎是不是我還是要從整個基金財務的角度呢提供這個說明然後我覺得幫我們把財務狀況做更清楚的說明大家好好討論你剛剛前面都已經講過我知道啦你的論點我一向都知道我想請教一件事情你知道你剛剛講說基金什麼破產啊什麼的問題嘛對不對是不是沒錯吧他會歸零歸零嘛來來來那我想請教"},{"start":11600.097,"end":11628.406,"text":"你知道我們勞保有類似的問題吧一樣勞動部的回答是什麼這幾年撥補了三千多億人沒錯吧對每年都有撥補每年都撥補他還是有破產問題對不對跟你一樣你知道勞動部怎麼講嗎勞動部說政府有最後支付責任勞保絕對不會倒大家請放心很有魄力那我就問了公教是二等公民嗎"},{"start":11629.767,"end":11658.437,"text":"是嗎我支持喔我先講不要被扣帽子我支持勞保政府負擔最後支付責任勞保絕對不能倒我支持但是我要幫我們公教人員講一句話為什麼到公教人員這個政府的肩膀就不見了第三個我要跟部長講部長講我說我都沒有為難你都沒有為難你因為這所謂的雙標的問題我覺得你也不好回答"},{"start":11659.745,"end":11683.797,"text":"第三 我跟你講請問我們今天提的案子是要回到2018年以前的所謂的年金水準嗎 是嗎是不是沒有 是112年停止調降有112跟103停砍嘛 對不對所以不是要回到你的所謂的年金之前的狀況嘛我跟部長講一件事情"},{"start":11685.492,"end":11712.29,"text":"我們也遇到太多太多我們現在公教人員我相信你不否認啦台灣不管時代建設激進奇蹟然後包括說今天我們台積電的建設都有很多優秀公務員在後面撥話這些公教人員在我們國家發展過程當中是我們最中間安定的力量今天卑微到什麼程度我就用個比喻跟你講啦你年金砍了這麼多年你把他血跟肉都砍掉了啦"},{"start":11713.089,"end":11738.172,"text":"今天非常卑微是说不是要回到把血肉补回来只求求你骨跟筋不要再断它嘛手跟脚不要再断它嘛肉跟血都被你砍了 吸了很卑微我告诉大家我相信全民也能接受今天公教人员不是没有为你刚刚所谓的年金的永续你拿着这个大的一个目标"},{"start":11739.366,"end":11766.575,"text":"在犧牲自己 不是沒有耶這麼多年已經砍了多少了他們也沒有要求要回復到原點去啊只是真的砍過頭了嘛你們過去考試院提的版本也不是今天這個版本 沒錯吧不是後來現在實行這個版本 沒錯啊你們也沒砍那麼重啦真的到最後是砍過頭 我告訴你那今天也不過卑微的說拜託 留一口氣給公教人員吧謝謝您好 謝謝委員"},{"start":11770.643,"end":11774.693,"text":"好 謝謝龍委員那麼也謝謝部長那接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":11804.5,"end":11827.046,"text":"請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長 你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年"},{"start":11828.971,"end":11858.616,"text":"我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子但是我的記憶不一定完整"},{"start":11859.488,"end":11880.787,"text":"沒有一個嘛 我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊 嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有 蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這是通過的"},{"start":11883.058,"end":11909.221,"text":"警消人员所得替代率恢复到被砍的八成很多人还恢复不了八成跟你廉资还有关系要服务满40年才有到八成那考试院你刚才说的不是只有行政院那考试院在做什么事情你们要审定对不对法定你的法律审定是不是你的法定义务你做了吗"},{"start":11910.1,"end":11937.528,"text":"那個我們現在已經上次已經有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會總統公告法律就正式實施嘛對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯4月25號就應該"},{"start":11940.044,"end":11957.432,"text":"結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆"},{"start":11959.434,"end":11985.241,"text":"所以我們必須而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那是不是退伏法那是根據警察條例所以內政部老實說權者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動邀內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多差不多就緒了那等到6月底以前你為什麼你剛剛都知道法定預算"},{"start":11986.611,"end":12014.4,"text":"總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥了對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會"},{"start":12016.445,"end":12042.516,"text":"你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你已經是不對時間拖太久第二個你看看來不一定來你看你開的內容來"},{"start":12046.192,"end":12061.212,"text":"我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開一本就好了你開了"},{"start":12062.639,"end":12086.339,"text":"你從4月29號開會 5月16 5月28 6月25到7月30你的結論都一樣 你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好 還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程你這樣對得起公教人員會議過程裡面 我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後 在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部"},{"start":12087.742,"end":12104.35,"text":"我不是這樣講我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責我們協助也開發系統 法定 你說問題在內政部當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責法定決定是我你等一下 我想必須定邊疑省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責"},{"start":12112.15,"end":12137.946,"text":"所以突然之間你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾"},{"start":12138.886,"end":12165.932,"text":"系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到的退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁合訂這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯"},{"start":12167.172,"end":12190.427,"text":"第一個你已經嚴重違法 拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你 你現在拖到現在沒給來 必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給你到時候要補嗎這是一個 第一要補利息要不要算進去他現在問題是你法律出來生效之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定就是法定預算已經夠了啊"},{"start":12191.227,"end":12203.898,"text":"所以我剛剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了你是法律案過了但是沒有預算法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算對不對編不會當年度編"},{"start":12208.353,"end":12234.434,"text":"什麼叫不會當年入編他的權益是從這個法律專家之後開始不只嚴重對不起警消人員你整個法制的基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案你們現在拖延這麼久你們現在還說不是從4月25號是從4月25號啊你今天幾號 今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定"},{"start":12235.742,"end":12256.457,"text":"然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就報給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部"},{"start":12256.877,"end":12275.021,"text":"到現在算不出來你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要 我問你好 那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底 快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個 理性是要什麼"},{"start":12280.699,"end":12289.407,"text":"我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你一億錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心"},{"start":12293.39,"end":12315.698,"text":"是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到 警消人員的權益所以我們問你第一 你有沒有賭職的問題第二個 對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家"},{"start":12317.759,"end":12345.254,"text":"你少算 你現在給 四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數 你有沒有法治觀念你如果數學再不好一點你拖到明年才算好就到明年才能領這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果剩兩年 兩年後比較便宜是不是"},{"start":12346.38,"end":12369.105,"text":"去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來 我接著要問你一個很重要的事情不好意思 主席好現在預言還可以等我一下嗎好 現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準 你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡"},{"start":12371.577,"end":12381.518,"text":"剛剛秘書長也承認嘛法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛"},{"start":12383.277,"end":12401.191,"text":"蕭美琴提供花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊 過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴清的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在欺壓你水杯還對不起全國民眾他竟然講說我申請釋憲 按個按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給"},{"start":12406.926,"end":12423.922,"text":"把自己當上帝了都侵犯到 霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘 抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了"},{"start":12425.865,"end":12451.261,"text":"勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產人家每一年都爭取到一千億最近三年已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧你如果怕你在講你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取你要少撥補你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產結果你又沒有積極去爭取"},{"start":12454.216,"end":12466.992,"text":"一起努力啦 更重要的我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退路 把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦 已經法定預算過了守法 而且趕快不要再霸凌不要欺負我們的警消人員 謝謝好 謝謝商委員的訊息 質詢也請那個"},{"start":12473.815,"end":12486.011,"text":"考試院秘書長這邊要注意有關於警消人員的權益的問題我們法律都已經生效了就應該立刻實施如果說是這個審定的部分程序上面稍微晚一點那但是要給這個要"},{"start":12488.314,"end":12514.636,"text":"要補那個差額退休金的這個事情也應該要公開的跟所有的退休的請教人員講讓他們安心政府一定會把這筆錢如實的交到他們的手上不能講說現在行政院就不編預算然後你們考試院也沒有作為也沒有記憶去爭取我覺得這樣是不對的所以剛剛其實張委員講的是很有道理的我也不斷的在說如果說今天換成是"},{"start":12516.717,"end":12535.977,"text":"一般的企業是雇主他可以這樣子去欠發勞工的薪水嗎這早就違反勞基法了對 公務員退休這些公教人員這些公務人員他們都是這些退休警校人員他們已經是很忍耐一直在等待然後政府看什麼時候可以把這個錢補給他們"},{"start":12538.09,"end":12563.362,"text":"不要忘記刑法上面有一個叫一流苛扣罪這依法要發給的款項你不發給就是違反刑法的相關規定我希望就是考試院可以站在維護這些退休警察人員的立場上要去跟行政院反映不要忘記在權力分立的體制上面你們和行政院是平行的行政院沒有比你們大"},{"start":12564.928,"end":12569.9,"text":"拜託請考試院一定要去積極地去爭取警校人員的權益好 謝謝"},{"start":12572.691,"end":12594.293,"text":"好 那接下來我們請蔡議員委員發言那我在這邊先 對不起我這邊先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員尋答結束為止然後接下來應該是吳麗華委員 吳麗華委員 吳麗華委員葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在那接下來就請蔡議員委員發言"},{"start":12600.776,"end":12622.791,"text":"不好意思那還是請葉委員先讓蔡宇宇委員先發言好了繼續交換一下好 謝謝趙偉我們是不是有請考試院秘書長考選部部長跟選區部部長秘書長還有部長"},{"start":12628.686,"end":12650.494,"text":"好 秘書長以及兩位部長事實上我要講的問題在之前在詢問的時候我有講現在還是要再講我們看這幾年來整個土木就是說國家的公務員土木相關的人才"},{"start":12651.522,"end":12678.563,"text":"是非常的缺乏那我們以高普考的人數來看你來看工程類的在112年到114年缺額是增加了600人土木類的缺額是增加了400人報考的人數卻是從3300下降到2700所以缺額增加報考人數減少所以呈現的現在整個公務機關"},{"start":12680.373,"end":12699.754,"text":"非常欠缺在做這些工程的尤其是在這個越基層的公家單位我們也許我們去問內政部我們去問國土署他們都不會給你答案因為為什麼因為公務員在公家機關在中央機關資格比較高薪水比較高"},{"start":12700.655,"end":12716.223,"text":"但是如果是在我們像嘉義縣非六都的那又有三級政府的他的待遇是又比不上在中央單位的待遇所以你看這裡的鄉鎮公所"},{"start":12717.003,"end":12725.233,"text":"他整個建設課請不上人,或是說一個好不容易培養一棟,差不多有經驗,有人要跑去,或是說別的單位,像我們這裡剛才林務署啦,很多單位就要挖角,人家就叫他繞過了。"},{"start":12734.523,"end":12757.708,"text":"所以人才我們基層一直沒有人才那這樣的狀況我覺得已經不是說地方政府留不住人這樣這一句話這麼簡單這個已經變成整個制度架構會讓整個地方政府在整個工程類我們有很多好的計畫要執行的時候地方政府沒有人可以做這些工作所以這個問題很嚴重"},{"start":12760.109,"end":12781.167,"text":"那我想要請教一下就是說我們不管是考試院我們在替國家在把著人才考選部我們的考試單位或者是我們全序部我們到底有什麼辦法可以強化整個地方政府把一流的土木人才可以留在公家單位呢這個有誰可以先來回答一下"},{"start":12785.994,"end":12807.694,"text":"這是一個複雜的問題我先不講那個待遇這方面的一個事情而是說考試院這邊 部裡面這邊做的就是說我們最近確實也調整了做這個植物類等的通案調整譬如說我們把所有工程機關的委任的那個職缺就會減比例啊 配置比例的變少變少意思是說因為比較多人"},{"start":12809.035,"end":12833.137,"text":"設建任這個東西就是對於基層機關來講就會更大的一個有升遷的機會讓他想要留在這個機關繼續服務他有比較高他的薪水就相對會比較高一點我們能做的大概是比較偏這一方面來做一些努力其他就是說我們也會放寬譬如像說譬如說你去外面有專業證照的人你也可以"},{"start":12833.797,"end":12848.518,"text":"也可以很順利的進到機關裡面來使用或者你也可以營用非限職人員其實這些都是我們部裡面這邊可以努力去讓這些特別是像土木工程這種機關缺人的時候我們提供那些機制給他們使用"},{"start":12849.999,"end":12870.169,"text":"這個 我想這個議題是真的是一個很複雜很複雜的議題我了解這個 大家都在叫部長 部長 當然欠人大家黨委都說欠人可是現在我們對於這種機關需要有這些工程人才這件事情我覺得態度上就沒有其他你說我們為了留住這個機關要有醫師或獸醫我們還開設了叫什麼"},{"start":12875.532,"end":12896.634,"text":"不开业奖金 不开业奖金那就是有什么办法然后说我因为有不开业奖金那我放弃我可能在民间尤其现在兽医兽医师现在民间多好赚但他会愿意留在公部门表示在公部门有足够的诱因所以我们创设了不开业奖金但是在工程这一类我觉得一直被漠视"},{"start":12897.775,"end":12911.439,"text":"一直大家不覺得這件事重要我們要推動很多好的建設基層的公務員尤其是在第一線新辦人員是最重要的新辦人員這個工廠大家監督得好這個工廠後面的品質他的水準一定都會比較好"},{"start":12918.121,"end":12938.44,"text":"對不對這樣事實上我覺得我們全區部還是我們考試部我們還是在國家怎麼用人怎麼培養人這件事情上在於這個工程人才不管是土木系的或者是他是工程的 建築系的這裡的人才我們要給他最好的方法劉才公社這關有誘因"},{"start":12939.961,"end":12951.309,"text":"他們不理我事實上原因很多層還有一種就是覺得說公家機關可能風險高民間機關沒有風險大禹又好有很多原因的這個原因我們不可以說因為原因在這裡所以我們就不該解決"},{"start":12954.952,"end":12969.961,"text":"不然我們就沒辦法改觀 不能這樣啦 要想辦法我想行政院人事刑事總署也努力在透過代議獎金這部分改觀我們這邊就透過變成植物獵的等候或是其他相關的一種方式來解決大家都有想辦法啦可能好過還沒像大家預期這樣啦部長我覺得還有一點啦 所以我們在想辦法的要從"},{"start":12978.886,"end":12993.454,"text":"基層機關比如說你們應該要回到鄉鎮公所或者是地方政府他們的用人因為我們在中央機關真的在這一點的感受沒有基層機關的強烈因為中央的機關只等比基層還快所以人會往更好的地方去就不想留在基層"},{"start":12999.497,"end":13003.481,"text":"我們這基站是很重要的 這間丹納斯颱風所有的這個勘測 要復原 要去認定 都是基層人員做的這基站我們是知道要讓它有誘因 留在基層單位所以我們這間通案的概念裡面是以地方政府不是很重要的一個角色我們在處理"},{"start":13020.717,"end":13042.123,"text":"好啊好啊 我希望趕快拿出更多好的對策出來讓他們留在基層有尊嚴 待遇又好 留在基層好我覺得基層越強壯代表我們中央政府越強有啦 我也想要在那邊正康 我也想在那邊去教育他們那樣 他們就管政後來面了解一些情報你也要跟他們講話 要叫啦 要哄騙人啦有啦 我了解 要聽他們的聲音啦好不好 好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13050.506,"end":13068.648,"text":"好 謝謝蔡委員那剛因為就是這葉委員 朱委員稍微錯過了那請葉委員葉委員還要再申請發言是不是 對吧是 好 對這邊的話我邀請你可以再繼續對 最後一位質詢 可以"},{"start":13070.83,"end":13083.077,"text":"好 那我們繼續宣告因為登記發言委員已經尋答完畢但是現有議員之委員希望能夠再請求尋答如果在場如意的話我們接著就請議員之委員進行尋答時間五分鐘請秘書長還有權序部請秘書長 權序部"},{"start":13092.819,"end":13110.191,"text":"喂好秘書長好現在考試院就是說10月10號開始要針對公務人員新增三天的身心調適假這個身心調適假講的目標非常遠大說是要呼應健康台灣的願景健康台灣是賴總統提出來的"},{"start":13112.289,"end":13136.725,"text":"呼應這個願景所以要推出這三天的身心調試假然後它的內容就是公務人員每年可以請三天病毒試駕計算然後以小時計免醫療證明機關不得那個主管不得拒絕應該是這樣沒錯吧那我不知道秘書長你有沒有去跟基層公務人員聊過這個身心調試假你覺得他們對這個身心調試假會有期待呢還是覺得可有可無"},{"start":13138.391,"end":13167.646,"text":"你有沒有去了解一下基層公務人員的心勝跟委員報告因為今天才實施因為願景很紅沒有啦今天才實施沒錯啦但是公務人員可以預期這個價對他來說是有用沒有用過去在討論的時候有請一些跟一些機關討論他們期待嗎這三天應該是說這個價本身他們覺得事實上是對調節身心來講有需要的時候確定當然是有幫忙"},{"start":13168.208,"end":13189.114,"text":"那部長我請問一下你現在是病度試駕七天對不對對公務人員一年請七天試駕是不用扣薪的嘛對吧你現在是把七天試駕說如果你有請三天身心調試駕的話那你還有四天試駕是可以不用扣薪沒錯吧對那對他來說有什麼差他請試駕就好了"},{"start":13190.592,"end":13201.865,"text":"一般來說 公務人員請假大部分 我遇到很多人其實不會請到士兵假不會請到士兵假如果要請假的話試假就寫有事就好了"},{"start":13202.694,"end":13228.66,"text":"他也不用告訴你他要幹嘛我有事我在家裡面休息也算是有事啊對不對 我只要說我有事 私事我就可以請試駕那我何必要去請那個身心調試駕我請了身心調試駕我主管還會覺得我是不是身心壓力太大還怎麼樣他會不會還抱什麼為我來講會不會惹一些麻煩所以我就請試駕就好你今天如果說啦"},{"start":13229.46,"end":13254.189,"text":"你說新增身心調試假三天不併入試假計算外加的變成說公務人員可以請十天有請假我是舉例啦當然沒有說一定要這樣做十天那有差但你如果是給了三天然後呢就說這個併入試假那哪有差不信你可以問我們在場立法院的公務人員你問他們有沒有差沒有差啦"},{"start":13255.325,"end":13280.079,"text":"根本沒有差然後講的那個願景很偉大好像說我們這個是配合健康台灣有了這三天之後就不得了了公務機關都健康了我覺得這個有點太言過其實了你講的一部分我覺得也可能反映一些人的想法不過第一個就是說身心條件是這樣的機關不能拒絕一般警視架也不會拒絕我們也不希望說身心的健康這個問題好像是一個汙名化的議題"},{"start":13280.859,"end":13302.162,"text":"所以這也是在社會觀念慢慢在轉變大家越來越重視這一塊所以也不用因為請身心調適假有覺得有什麼被汙名化的我沒有說被汙名化我是說有些人怕麻煩嘛所以你現在是鼓勵大家請身心調適假然後讓身心問題不要被汙名化你訂這個假的目的是這個嗎"},{"start":13303.503,"end":13325.471,"text":"還是你是希望公務人員得到好的保障目的是哪一個如果你的目的是要讓公務人員請假比較方便或者是讓他壓力變小我覺得你這樣的做法也許理想很豐滿現實很骨感所以我覺得如果要真的有重視這一塊的話要想別的辦法不是用這三天身心調事假來做"},{"start":13327.631,"end":13335.144,"text":"對 就是說你加一天比如說你七天試駕加一天身心調試駕是外加的我覺得可能可以達到效果"},{"start":13335.922,"end":13358.422,"text":"但你病入那就效果有限我想加入我們中式生意健康的其中的一環我們員工協助方案去協助員工這方面的議題或是紓解生意壓力這個部分其他部分都要一起做第二 剛剛蔡議員也有問他說現在公務人員報考的或者是特別是在工程類地方政府都很缺"},{"start":13359.523,"end":13379.095,"text":"我跟一些基層公務員聊過了他們說兩件事情第一個公務員現在的薪資其實跟業界比也不見得比得上公務員剛進去的時候薪資不錯但是到中高階的時候就趨緩了就沒有辦法跟業界中高階來比第二個以前大家認為公務員有一個比較完善的退休保障"},{"start":13380.015,"end":13397.983,"text":"但是自從就是我們所謂政府年金改革之後大家對於政府失去信任我跟現在在職的公務員聊天我是說年金如果說讓他停扣的話對你有什麼影響他說停扣我退休還有20年當然停扣是好的但是我退休還有20年"},{"start":13398.743,"end":13419.933,"text":"我們的政府就改一改去到時候又變了怎麼辦其實這件事情我覺得才是最大的一個危機就是我們的一些優秀人才他對於政府失去信任當時招攬人才進入到政府的時候跟他講說你的退休一定會有保障薪資可能稍微低一點但是沒關係你退休一定有保障"},{"start":13420.333,"end":13447.319,"text":"忽然間改了完全失去信賴保障原則而這個不是針對已經受影響那些退休公務人員是針對未來的人才已經在職的年輕公務人員都是有影響他們基本上是對政府失去信心我覺得這件事情這個考試院應該也要正式就是說要怎麼樣去扭轉這一切那我不知道說部長或者是秘書長你對於國民黨委員提出來的年金改革的版本你有了解嗎"},{"start":13449.237,"end":13474.956,"text":"我們知道有沒有要恢復18%沒有18%然後是不是要回到之前的水準所謂的替代率有沒有也沒有嘛對不對因為外面現在有很多不知道是誤解還是故意傳說現在國民黨的年金改革就是要回到以前的水準恢復18%啦恢復替代率恢復75%沒有嘛現在是停扣嘛那停扣的目的是什麼停扣的目的是大家做一個通盤檢討嘛"},{"start":13476.502,"end":13503.38,"text":"然後再來就是我覺得政府要展現一個態度就是說我們之前做了但是沒關係現在既然有這個聲音好我們就來通盤檢討一下再一次給外界一個表達跟立場的說明然後我覺得還有一件事就我剛剛講的你要換回公務人員對政府的信任因為這個不是只有對之前的公務人員這對於我們招攬人才也都是有幫助的希望考試院可以往這個方向去"},{"start":13503.82,"end":13510.545,"text":"我想基金財務如果不健全的話大家也會對這個退休制度會有那信任的問題勒信任的問題勒"},{"start":13511.482,"end":13537.495,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得委員剛剛講沒有錯啦都改來改去啊所以你要檢討嘛你要有一個完整論述就是前面是已經造成一些裂痕嘛要一個完整論述嘛對啊 謝謝好謝謝葉委員發言那麼現在委員們都已經發言完畢然後詢答結束委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或者是以書面答覆的話就請"},{"start":13538.083,"end":13557.456,"text":"考試院及所屬機關要儘速送交給個別委員以及本會那麼有關於武帝華委員他有提書面質詢那就列入記錄刊登公報那並且請相關機關以書面答覆好 那麼今天會議就到這邊結束謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16931","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16931","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e4a1b1968cb0ca4a16c0396a52a6677962eb94a68550f7b5baad007c54eaf78525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案（114年度至116年度）」【詢答及處理，預算提案於10月8日上午10時截止收件】【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-09T08:31:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:44:00+08:00","duration":11564,"影片長度":"03:12:44","委員發言時間":"08:31:16 - 11:44:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,35,19,22,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":1936.1165937500002,"end":1936.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1938.4790937500002,"end":1940.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1941.9890937500002,"end":1951.7597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1952.2659687500002,"end":1954.6622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1955.0672187500002,"end":1956.9403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1957.14284375,"end":1960.1972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1962.4415937500003,"end":1962.5765937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2010.1978437500002,"end":2018.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2019.5297187500003,"end":2021.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2022.7022187500002,"end":2024.5415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2024.9634687500002,"end":2026.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2028.3047187500001,"end":2028.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2034.90284375,"end":2035.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2037.43409375,"end":2048.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2049.97221875,"end":2050.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2054.5790937500005,"end":2054.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2056.5534687500003,"end":2058.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2059.1522187500004,"end":2059.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2061.0928437500006,"end":2062.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2065.76721875,"end":2068.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2069.8172187500004,"end":2079.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2082.64221875,"end":2087.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2089.8984687500006,"end":2091.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2093.66159375,"end":2096.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2099.26409375,"end":2099.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2099.97284375,"end":2103.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2105.10284375,"end":2105.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2105.23784375,"end":2105.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2105.5078437500006,"end":2105.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2105.96346875,"end":2106.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2108.3428437500006,"end":2109.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2109.5240937500002,"end":2109.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2109.9628437500005,"end":2110.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2110.5703437500006,"end":2110.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2110.9247187500005,"end":2112.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2112.17346875,"end":2112.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2112.29159375,"end":2112.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2112.5447187500004,"end":2112.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2112.57846875,"end":2112.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2112.94971875,"end":2113.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":2113.00034375,"end":2113.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2116.54409375,"end":2119.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":2122.9734687500004,"end":2125.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2125.9434687500006,"end":2127.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2130.7528437500005,"end":2131.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":2131.8834687500002,"end":2133.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2135.6297187500004,"end":2135.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2138.31284375,"end":2139.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2140.54034375,"end":2141.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2141.6034687500005,"end":2142.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2141.6709687500006,"end":2141.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2145.9909687500003,"end":2146.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2146.0078437500006,"end":2147.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2147.9315937500005,"end":2148.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2149.29846875,"end":2152.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2152.3359687500006,"end":2161.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2163.7097187500003,"end":2165.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2166.0047187500004,"end":2175.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2175.4040937500004,"end":2177.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2177.0240937500002,"end":2178.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2179.1503437500005,"end":2179.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2183.26784375,"end":2183.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2187.80721875,"end":2188.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2190.15284375,"end":2196.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2197.6622187500006,"end":2203.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2197.7128437500005,"end":2198.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2199.73784375,"end":2200.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2203.83846875,"end":2211.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2209.3903437500003,"end":2212.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2212.0565937500005,"end":2212.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2212.1072187500004,"end":2212.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2212.2253437500003,"end":2212.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2212.2928437500004,"end":2212.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2213.96346875,"end":2214.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2214.92534375,"end":2222.6540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2217.7265937500006,"end":2217.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2220.32534375,"end":2221.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2221.48971875,"end":2221.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2221.65846875,"end":2221.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2221.79346875,"end":2222.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2222.0634687500005,"end":2222.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2222.31659375,"end":2223.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2222.8903437500003,"end":2223.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2223.9197187500004,"end":2224.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2224.4597187500003,"end":2225.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2226.5184687500005,"end":2229.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2229.79221875,"end":2232.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2233.3865937500004,"end":2233.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2233.9265937500004,"end":2235.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2235.1922187500004,"end":2237.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2236.9303437500002,"end":2237.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2237.4872187500005,"end":2237.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2237.62221875,"end":2237.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2238.55034375,"end":2239.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2239.02284375,"end":2239.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2239.1240937500006,"end":2239.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2239.14096875,"end":2239.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2239.25909375,"end":2239.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2241.5372187500006,"end":2241.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2241.97596875,"end":2244.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2245.35096875,"end":2261.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2245.82346875,"end":2246.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2246.78534375,"end":2246.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2246.80221875,"end":2247.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2247.03846875,"end":2247.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2247.8990937500002,"end":2247.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2247.9665937500004,"end":2248.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2255.2734687500006,"end":2255.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2257.8553437500004,"end":2258.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2259.1884687500005,"end":2259.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2259.2559687500006,"end":2259.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2259.50909375,"end":2259.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2259.6778437500006,"end":2259.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2259.7959687500006,"end":2260.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2260.0997187500006,"end":2260.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2260.16721875,"end":2260.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2260.40346875,"end":2260.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2260.60596875,"end":2260.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2260.65659375,"end":2261.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2261.55096875,"end":2261.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2261.7197187500005,"end":2261.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2261.73659375,"end":2261.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2261.75346875,"end":2261.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2261.97284375,"end":2262.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2262.0234687500006,"end":2262.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2262.3778437500005,"end":2262.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2262.81659375,"end":2262.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2262.8503437500003,"end":2263.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2263.62659375,"end":2264.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2264.70659375,"end":2273.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2270.5622187500003,"end":2271.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2273.0428437500004,"end":2276.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2274.32534375,"end":2274.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2277.6834687500004,"end":2278.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2279.9784687500005,"end":2280.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2280.5690937500003,"end":2282.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2280.60284375,"end":2280.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2282.30721875,"end":2284.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2284.33221875,"end":2284.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2284.77096875,"end":2284.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2284.9228437500005,"end":2285.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2285.24346875,"end":2286.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2286.4753437500003,"end":2286.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2286.9140937500006,"end":2286.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2286.9647187500004,"end":2287.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2287.7409687500003,"end":2296.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2295.41909375,"end":2298.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2297.9334687500004,"end":2301.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2298.22034375,"end":2298.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2298.32159375,"end":2299.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2302.86096875,"end":2303.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2303.6540937500004,"end":2309.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2306.5059687500006,"end":2306.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2306.89409375,"end":2306.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2308.4803437500004,"end":2313.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2309.0203437500004,"end":2309.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2314.0322187500005,"end":2314.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2316.17534375,"end":2319.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2316.95159375,"end":2317.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2317.2722187500003,"end":2317.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2318.58846875,"end":2324.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2322.5878437500005,"end":2322.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2322.60471875,"end":2324.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2324.0390937500006,"end":2324.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2324.4609687500006,"end":2332.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2332.25721875,"end":2339.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2332.6959687500002,"end":2332.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2335.6659687500005,"end":2337.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2338.29846875,"end":2344.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2344.30596875,"end":2344.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2344.54221875,"end":2344.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2345.20034375,"end":2345.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2345.52096875,"end":2345.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2347.39409375,"end":2352.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2348.99721875,"end":2349.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2352.38909375,"end":2354.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2352.57471875,"end":2353.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2354.54909375,"end":2354.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2354.61659375,"end":2355.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2354.7178437500006,"end":2355.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2356.42221875,"end":2357.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2357.4684687500003,"end":2358.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2359.4765937500006,"end":2360.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2360.6747187500005,"end":2360.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2360.7422187500006,"end":2360.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2360.87721875,"end":2367.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2363.40846875,"end":2363.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2363.9822187500004,"end":2364.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":2364.15096875,"end":2364.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2364.18471875,"end":2364.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2365.2647187500006,"end":2365.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2365.29846875,"end":2365.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2365.3659687500003,"end":2365.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2365.7878437500003,"end":2365.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2365.82159375,"end":2367.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2367.1209687500004,"end":2370.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2367.99846875,"end":2372.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2370.81659375,"end":2370.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2372.82471875,"end":2372.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2372.8584687500006,"end":2373.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2372.87534375,"end":2373.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2373.34784375,"end":2373.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2373.78659375,"end":2374.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2374.0397187500002,"end":2379.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2374.15784375,"end":2374.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2380.41846875,"end":2382.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":2381.07659375,"end":2384.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2382.2409687500003,"end":2382.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2383.3884687500004,"end":2383.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2384.31659375,"end":2386.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2387.23596875,"end":2388.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2388.43409375,"end":2389.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":2389.02471875,"end":2389.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2389.93596875,"end":2391.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2391.87659375,"end":2394.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2395.0153437500003,"end":2397.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":2395.3359687500006,"end":2395.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2397.7490937500006,"end":2397.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2398.2890937500006,"end":2399.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2399.68971875,"end":2400.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2399.70659375,"end":2399.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2399.94284375,"end":2401.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2401.56284375,"end":2402.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2403.19971875,"end":2404.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2403.90846875,"end":2404.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2404.04346875,"end":2404.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2404.0603437500004,"end":2404.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2404.16159375,"end":2404.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2405.95034375,"end":2406.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":2408.1103437500005,"end":2408.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2408.12721875,"end":2410.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2411.19846875,"end":2411.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2411.82284375,"end":2411.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2412.16034375,"end":2412.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2412.83534375,"end":2422.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2417.66159375,"end":2417.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2420.8172187500004,"end":2422.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2422.11659375,"end":2424.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2423.92221875,"end":2424.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2424.69846875,"end":2424.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2424.78284375,"end":2424.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2424.7997187500005,"end":2424.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2425.4578437500004,"end":2465.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2460.62534375,"end":2460.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2460.64221875,"end":2468.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2465.1647187500002,"end":2465.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2465.5359687500004,"end":2465.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2465.9747187500006,"end":2468.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2469.2147187500004,"end":2471.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2470.39596875,"end":2473.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2471.9990937500006,"end":2472.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2473.29846875,"end":2473.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2474.0915937500004,"end":2476.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":2479.67721875,"end":2481.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2481.04409375,"end":2485.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":2483.96346875,"end":2484.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":2484.1490937500002,"end":2484.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2488.53659375,"end":2489.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2490.5447187500004,"end":2490.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2490.69659375,"end":2490.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2490.9159687500005,"end":2491.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2491.18596875,"end":2494.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2491.2028437500003,"end":2491.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2491.30409375,"end":2491.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2491.3378437500005,"end":2491.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2491.35471875,"end":2491.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":2495.65784375,"end":2498.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2496.31596875,"end":2496.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2496.7040937500005,"end":2496.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2496.9909687500003,"end":2497.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2497.1090937500003,"end":2498.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2498.0372187500006,"end":2498.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":2498.0878437500005,"end":2499.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2498.5772187500006,"end":2498.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2499.2859687500004,"end":2499.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":2499.79221875,"end":2501.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2501.73284375,"end":2502.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2504.19659375,"end":2505.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2505.81659375,"end":2509.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2510.45721875,"end":2510.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2510.47409375,"end":2514.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":2513.6297187500004,"end":2514.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2514.7097187500003,"end":2515.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2515.04721875,"end":2515.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":2515.11471875,"end":2515.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2515.1484687500006,"end":2516.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":2515.21596875,"end":2515.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":2515.90784375,"end":2516.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2516.0428437500004,"end":2516.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2516.6503437500005,"end":2516.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2518.3209687500002,"end":2549.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2522.0165937500005,"end":2522.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2549.03346875,"end":2553.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2553.60659375,"end":2560.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2560.96409375,"end":2561.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2561.21721875,"end":2562.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2561.2340937500003,"end":2566.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2564.42346875,"end":2565.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2566.9715937500005,"end":2567.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2567.0390937500006,"end":2567.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2567.8828437500006,"end":2568.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2568.2372187500005,"end":2569.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":2569.9753437500003,"end":2570.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2570.54909375,"end":2570.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2570.6334687500002,"end":2570.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":2570.6503437500005,"end":2570.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2570.75159375,"end":2570.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2570.7684687500005,"end":2571.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":2571.03846875,"end":2571.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2571.6797187500006,"end":2572.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":2572.5065937500003,"end":2572.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2572.6247187500003,"end":2572.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2572.8103437500004,"end":2574.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2572.8778437500005,"end":2572.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2572.91159375,"end":2572.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2572.96221875,"end":2573.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2574.1940937500003,"end":2574.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2574.22784375,"end":2578.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2578.46346875,"end":2580.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2581.34909375,"end":2581.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2581.3828437500006,"end":2592.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2592.38534375,"end":2600.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2602.02096875,"end":2606.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2610.34034375,"end":2610.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2610.4753437500003,"end":2611.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2611.8590937500003,"end":2611.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2611.8759687500005,"end":2612.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2612.97284375,"end":2613.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2613.5465937500003,"end":2614.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2614.2215937500005,"end":2623.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2624.66721875,"end":2625.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2625.83159375,"end":2626.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2627.2490937500006,"end":2627.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2629.30784375,"end":2630.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2632.68284375,"end":2633.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2636.4628437500005,"end":2637.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2637.9647187500004,"end":2638.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2638.35284375,"end":2640.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2638.79159375,"end":2643.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2644.5965937500005,"end":2645.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2646.7059687500005,"end":2648.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2647.09409375,"end":2647.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2647.93784375,"end":2660.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2660.30721875,"end":2662.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2662.41659375,"end":2662.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2662.7372187500005,"end":2663.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2663.68221875,"end":2665.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2665.65659375,"end":2670.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2671.7147187500004,"end":2672.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2673.38534375,"end":2674.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2675.24159375,"end":2676.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":2676.64221875,"end":2676.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2676.6590937500005,"end":2676.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":2676.67596875,"end":2676.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2676.7772187500004,"end":2676.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":2676.87846875,"end":2677.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2677.11471875,"end":2677.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2677.35096875,"end":2679.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2679.71346875,"end":2680.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2680.65846875,"end":2681.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2681.8565937500007,"end":2683.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":2684.89409375,"end":2685.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2685.3834687500002,"end":2686.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2687.4590937500006,"end":2692.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2693.7872187500006,"end":2699.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2700.6384687500004,"end":2701.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2702.73096875,"end":2703.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2705.73471875,"end":2706.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2707.6415937500005,"end":2708.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2708.63721875,"end":2710.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":2710.2403437500006,"end":2711.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2711.82659375,"end":2713.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2713.58159375,"end":2715.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2715.03284375,"end":2715.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":2715.03284375,"end":2721.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2718.7115937500002,"end":2726.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2724.0947187500005,"end":2739.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2728.4822187500004,"end":2729.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2729.71409375,"end":2729.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2739.8897187500006,"end":2740.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2740.9022187500004,"end":2742.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2742.38721875,"end":2768.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2742.55596875,"end":2742.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2745.6103437500005,"end":2746.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2747.07846875,"end":2747.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2770.16346875,"end":2777.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2773.9434687500006,"end":2774.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2778.34784375,"end":2778.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2778.97221875,"end":2779.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2781.1659687500005,"end":2783.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2782.2965937500003,"end":2783.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2783.4609687500006,"end":2788.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2785.82346875,"end":2786.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2787.8990937500002,"end":2789.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2788.4559687500005,"end":2790.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2790.41346875,"end":2791.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2790.9197187500004,"end":2791.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2792.10096875,"end":2796.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2792.28659375,"end":2792.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2793.31596875,"end":2794.0584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2799.15471875,"end":2803.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2803.96409375,"end":2804.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2804.1328437500006,"end":2804.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2804.50409375,"end":2804.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2804.57159375,"end":2807.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2807.03534375,"end":2807.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2807.7272187500002,"end":2807.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2807.7440937500005,"end":2807.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2809.1953437500006,"end":2812.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2811.03471875,"end":2815.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2815.8103437500004,"end":2818.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2816.9578437500004,"end":2820.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2820.43409375,"end":2821.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2821.2272187500002,"end":2821.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2821.9697187500005,"end":2824.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2822.29034375,"end":2822.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2824.3153437500005,"end":2826.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2825.1084687500006,"end":2828.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2828.7028437500003,"end":2830.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2830.2890937500006,"end":2830.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2831.08221875,"end":2832.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2832.2803437500006,"end":2834.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2833.0397187500002,"end":2836.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2834.96346875,"end":2835.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2835.3515937500006,"end":2835.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2836.4822187500004,"end":2836.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2837.42721875,"end":2838.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2838.08534375,"end":2839.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2838.7940937500007,"end":2842.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2842.4559687500005,"end":2842.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2842.6247187500003,"end":2842.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2842.6415937500005,"end":2845.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2842.96221875,"end":2843.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2843.2322187500004,"end":2843.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2843.2490937500006,"end":2843.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2843.38409375,"end":2843.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2843.50221875,"end":2843.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2843.51909375,"end":2843.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2843.63721875,"end":2843.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2843.6709687500006,"end":2843.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2843.8903437500003,"end":2848.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2846.0840937500006,"end":2847.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2847.19784375,"end":2848.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2850.2184687500003,"end":2852.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2852.2772187500004,"end":2853.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2855.2472187500007,"end":2861.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2861.5584687500004,"end":2865.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2865.81096875,"end":2867.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2867.49846875,"end":2868.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2868.27471875,"end":2868.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2869.37159375,"end":2870.3503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2871.1434687500005,"end":2876.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2876.71221875,"end":2879.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2880.32346875,"end":2882.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2884.42409375,"end":2884.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2884.62659375,"end":2884.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2887.1240937500006,"end":2889.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2890.87034375,"end":2894.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2894.2284687500005,"end":2895.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2896.11846875,"end":2900.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2901.5184687500005,"end":2903.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2905.65284375,"end":2906.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2907.1884687500005,"end":2910.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2912.5547187500006,"end":2912.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2915.28846875,"end":2916.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2917.8028437500006,"end":2920.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2923.0847187500003,"end":2927.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2927.99534375,"end":2930.3240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":2932.4334687500004,"end":2934.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2933.9353437500004,"end":2934.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2934.08721875,"end":2934.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":2935.5553437500002,"end":2939.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2938.01909375,"end":2941.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":2941.3434687500003,"end":2947.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2947.04721875,"end":2947.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2948.49846875,"end":2948.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_50","start":2948.7009687500004,"end":2955.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2948.7178437500006,"end":2948.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2955.90659375,"end":2957.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2957.7628437500007,"end":2959.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2959.77096875,"end":2960.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2961.6103437500005,"end":2964.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2966.1328437500006,"end":2966.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2967.60096875,"end":2968.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2971.63409375,"end":2971.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":2971.9715937500005,"end":2972.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2973.3047187500006,"end":2974.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2973.4228437500005,"end":2987.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_51","start":2982.2822187500005,"end":2983.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2983.4297187500006,"end":2983.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2983.56471875,"end":2983.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2984.6784687500003,"end":2985.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2985.62346875,"end":2985.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_51","start":2986.5684687500006,"end":2986.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2986.6022187500002,"end":2991.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2987.3953437500004,"end":2988.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2988.86346875,"end":2988.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2988.99846875,"end":2989.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2992.3565937500007,"end":2993.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":2999.35971875,"end":3002.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3000.5915937500004,"end":3001.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3003.52784375,"end":3004.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3003.6122187500005,"end":3004.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3005.3503437500003,"end":3007.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3005.4347187500007,"end":3007.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3007.84784375,"end":3007.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3007.9659687500007,"end":3008.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3009.8222187500005,"end":3011.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3011.9822187500004,"end":3011.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3011.9990937500006,"end":3012.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3012.03284375,"end":3012.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3012.13409375,"end":3015.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3012.1678437500004,"end":3013.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3016.72409375,"end":3017.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3017.5847187500003,"end":3018.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3019.30596875,"end":3025.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3020.4872187500005,"end":3021.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3025.75221875,"end":3027.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3027.81096875,"end":3028.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3028.18221875,"end":3029.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3028.1990937500004,"end":3029.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3029.1778437500006,"end":3030.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3030.6122187500005,"end":3030.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3030.7809687500003,"end":3030.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3033.66659375,"end":3036.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3038.71221875,"end":3039.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3038.72909375,"end":3040.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3039.9609687500006,"end":3044.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3044.6522187500004,"end":3045.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3044.9053437500006,"end":3047.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3047.4872187500005,"end":3051.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3047.6053437500004,"end":3048.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3051.6384687500004,"end":3053.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3053.24159375,"end":3054.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3054.5240937500002,"end":3055.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3055.90784375,"end":3056.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3056.9540937500005,"end":3057.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3057.3084687500004,"end":3082.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3058.13534375,"end":3059.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3086.1140937500004,"end":3088.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3089.70846875,"end":3091.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3089.7253437500003,"end":3090.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3091.1259687500005,"end":3097.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3095.3953437500004,"end":3096.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3097.4540937500005,"end":3102.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3100.01909375,"end":3100.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3102.5165937500005,"end":3103.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3103.8834687500002,"end":3105.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3105.4022187500004,"end":3106.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3107.61284375,"end":3108.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3108.81096875,"end":3109.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3109.18221875,"end":3110.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3109.77284375,"end":3110.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3111.52784375,"end":3111.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3112.55721875,"end":3114.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3114.9365937500006,"end":3116.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3115.74659375,"end":3118.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3118.9697187500005,"end":3132.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3133.09409375,"end":3147.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3133.2965937500003,"end":3133.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3140.92409375,"end":3141.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3146.4422187500004,"end":3147.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3148.0622187500003,"end":3149.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3150.27284375,"end":3151.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3152.68596875,"end":3152.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3152.7028437500003,"end":3153.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3153.81659375,"end":3153.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3154.5253437500005,"end":3155.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3156.2634687500004,"end":3157.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3159.26721875,"end":3160.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3159.9422187500004,"end":3161.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3161.2078437500004,"end":3166.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3166.96221875,"end":3171.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3168.04221875,"end":3168.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3171.36659375,"end":3173.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3173.40846875,"end":3173.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3173.94846875,"end":3174.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3177.1715937500003,"end":3179.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3177.22221875,"end":3178.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3178.7578437500006,"end":3178.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3180.0065937500003,"end":3182.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3182.47034375,"end":3187.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3188.84909375,"end":3190.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3190.9753437500003,"end":3199.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3191.1609687500004,"end":3191.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3191.19471875,"end":3191.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3191.44784375,"end":3191.5828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3198.06284375,"end":3201.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3201.8428437500006,"end":3202.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3202.77096875,"end":3202.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3202.8047187500006,"end":3203.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3203.8847187500005,"end":3204.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3204.03659375,"end":3204.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3204.7959687500006,"end":3206.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3207.1922187500004,"end":3209.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3209.28471875,"end":3209.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3209.89221875,"end":3210.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3211.3097187500007,"end":3211.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3211.9678437500006,"end":3217.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3219.03846875,"end":3220.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3219.9159687500005,"end":3220.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3220.6415937500005,"end":3220.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3220.8778437500005,"end":3220.8947187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3223.4090937500005,"end":3226.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3226.15971875,"end":3229.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3231.4247187500005,"end":3234.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3235.84596875,"end":3237.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3239.11971875,"end":3240.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3243.22034375,"end":3250.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3249.78471875,"end":3252.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3251.57346875,"end":3252.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3252.6872187500003,"end":3252.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3252.78846875,"end":3252.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3252.90659375,"end":3253.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3253.02471875,"end":3253.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3253.0753437500007,"end":3253.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3253.15971875,"end":3253.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3253.34534375,"end":3253.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3253.46346875,"end":3254.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3254.0372187500006,"end":3254.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3254.30721875,"end":3254.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3254.40846875,"end":3254.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3254.4928437500002,"end":3254.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3254.5603437500004,"end":3254.6447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3254.6447187500007,"end":3255.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3255.2859687500004,"end":3255.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3255.3365937500002,"end":3255.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3255.4040937500004,"end":3255.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3255.55596875,"end":3255.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3255.69096875,"end":3267.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3261.15846875,"end":3261.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3270.69284375,"end":3274.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":3274.8778437500005,"end":3275.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3277.1728437500005,"end":3278.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3279.85596875,"end":3282.6065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3282.6065937500007,"end":3285.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3284.0409687500005,"end":3285.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3285.74534375,"end":3287.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3287.50034375,"end":3290.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3290.7740937500002,"end":3292.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3292.93409375,"end":3300.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3301.01721875,"end":3302.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3303.7340937500003,"end":3306.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3306.0290937500004,"end":3308.1553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3308.3915937500005,"end":3315.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3312.99846875,"end":3313.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3314.26409375,"end":3314.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3315.29346875,"end":3315.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3317.28471875,"end":3317.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3319.44471875,"end":3320.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3320.96346875,"end":3321.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3321.06471875,"end":3324.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3325.9415937500007,"end":3329.5528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3329.5528437500006,"end":3330.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3330.0759687500004,"end":3330.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3330.3290937500005,"end":3331.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3333.48471875,"end":3342.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3343.0865937500002,"end":3344.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3344.70659375,"end":3347.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3347.0184687500005,"end":3349.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3349.6847187500007,"end":3350.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3350.1065937500007,"end":3350.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3350.2247187500006,"end":3350.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3350.30909375,"end":3354.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3352.7559687500006,"end":3353.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3354.4434687500006,"end":3355.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3354.46034375,"end":3354.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3356.02971875,"end":3359.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3358.8984687500006,"end":3360.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3359.9784687500005,"end":3376.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3374.23784375,"end":3374.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3376.1953437500006,"end":3384.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3383.94096875,"end":3386.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3386.75909375,"end":3388.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3388.02471875,"end":3388.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3388.1765937500004,"end":3388.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3388.2440937500005,"end":3392.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3388.5478437500005,"end":3389.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3393.7959687500006,"end":3394.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3394.65659375,"end":3394.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3394.7409687500003,"end":3400.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3399.53346875,"end":3402.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3403.65096875,"end":3405.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3406.3172187500004,"end":3407.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3407.97096875,"end":3408.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3410.21534375,"end":3411.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3411.4303437500002,"end":3412.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3412.0378437500003,"end":3412.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3412.79721875,"end":3415.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3414.2315937500007,"end":3414.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3415.0584687500004,"end":3416.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3416.7459687500004,"end":3417.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3417.92721875,"end":3419.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3420.20534375,"end":3424.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3421.5553437500002,"end":3422.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3424.18784375,"end":3425.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3428.42346875,"end":3429.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3430.3640937500004,"end":3433.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3433.41846875,"end":3435.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3435.88221875,"end":3437.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3438.04221875,"end":3439.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3439.18971875,"end":3440.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3440.5397187500002,"end":3442.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3440.6240937500006,"end":3441.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3442.88534375,"end":3443.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3443.9147187500002,"end":3444.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3445.1803437500002,"end":3445.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3445.6697187500004,"end":3445.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3445.72034375,"end":3445.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3445.7372187500005,"end":3449.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3449.7028437500003,"end":3449.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3450.90096875,"end":3451.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3451.30596875,"end":3453.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3453.4659687500007,"end":3460.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3454.02284375,"end":3455.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3460.6378437500007,"end":3465.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3469.88534375,"end":3470.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3472.39971875,"end":3475.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3481.25909375,"end":3486.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3486.9459687500002,"end":3486.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3486.99659375,"end":3487.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3487.0303437500006,"end":3487.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3489.39284375,"end":3491.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3492.8015937500004,"end":3499.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3501.9647187500004,"end":3505.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3505.96409375,"end":3506.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3506.7234687500004,"end":3513.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3514.5028437500005,"end":3515.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3516.2409687500003,"end":3519.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3519.95346875,"end":3522.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3523.8009687500007,"end":3527.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3525.1847187500007,"end":3525.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3525.37034375,"end":3526.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3527.8678437500002,"end":3530.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3530.51721875,"end":3531.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3530.9053437500006,"end":3531.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3531.0065937500003,"end":3534.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3531.34409375,"end":3531.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3534.6178437500002,"end":3535.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3535.9678437500006,"end":3545.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3537.0309687500003,"end":3537.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3538.22909375,"end":3538.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":3538.9715937500005,"end":3539.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3539.0390937500006,"end":3539.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3539.2247187500006,"end":3540.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3540.03471875,"end":3541.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3543.4434687500006,"end":3543.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3544.2028437500003,"end":3544.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3544.8778437500005,"end":3545.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3545.0465937500003,"end":3545.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":3545.28284375,"end":3545.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3545.3165937500007,"end":3545.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3545.6709687500006,"end":3545.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3545.9578437500004,"end":3545.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3545.9747187500006,"end":3546.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3546.0253437500005,"end":3546.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3547.5778437500003,"end":3551.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3552.5897187500004,"end":3553.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3554.1590937500005,"end":3556.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3557.07846875,"end":3561.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3561.8709687500004,"end":3572.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3572.14784375,"end":3579.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3580.2478437500004,"end":3582.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3581.66534375,"end":3583.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3583.47096875,"end":3584.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3584.61846875,"end":3586.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3585.7322187500004,"end":3589.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3589.3603437500005,"end":3589.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3590.35596875,"end":3596.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3597.1228437500004,"end":3598.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3600.8522187500002,"end":3603.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3604.76721875,"end":3608.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3609.3572187500004,"end":3612.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3612.36096875,"end":3615.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3617.3053437500002,"end":3618.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3620.12346875,"end":3622.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3623.24534375,"end":3626.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3626.4178437500004,"end":3628.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3628.91534375,"end":3631.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3629.33721875,"end":3629.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3629.4890937500004,"end":3629.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3629.52284375,"end":3629.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3629.57346875,"end":3629.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3629.6240937500006,"end":3629.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3629.64096875,"end":3629.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3631.6490937500002,"end":3635.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3631.6659687500005,"end":3632.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3636.08721875,"end":3655.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3636.15471875,"end":3636.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3656.0165937500005,"end":3659.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3660.7584687500002,"end":3673.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3675.3047187500006,"end":3675.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3675.7265937500006,"end":3675.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3675.81096875,"end":3675.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3675.8447187500005,"end":3676.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3676.0303437500006,"end":3676.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3676.5534687500003,"end":3676.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3677.56596875,"end":3707.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":3677.9540937500005,"end":3678.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3707.9072187500005,"end":3710.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3711.2315937500007,"end":3718.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3718.8253437500007,"end":3730.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3731.4140937500006,"end":3735.0422187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3735.8015937500004,"end":3739.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3739.9190937500007,"end":3743.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3742.29846875,"end":3742.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3742.58534375,"end":3745.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3743.54721875,"end":3744.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3745.5047187500004,"end":3746.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3747.1415937500005,"end":3748.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3748.9978437500004,"end":3751.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3752.3222187500005,"end":3753.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3753.55409375,"end":3754.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3754.7184687500003,"end":3754.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3755.78159375,"end":3756.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3757.18221875,"end":3758.6672187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3761.68784375,"end":3764.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3764.6915937500007,"end":3765.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3765.36659375,"end":3765.4172187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3765.9403437500005,"end":3766.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3766.02471875,"end":3767.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3768.3534687500005,"end":3790.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3790.5440937500007,"end":3813.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3813.7472187500007,"end":3851.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3852.3740937500006,"end":3852.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":3852.40784375,"end":3853.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3854.4159687500005,"end":3981.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3981.8390937500008,"end":3984.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3985.8722187500007,"end":3998.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3998.84909375,"end":4004.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4005.8522187500002,"end":4019.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4019.1834687500004,"end":4033.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4026.99659375,"end":4027.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4033.91534375,"end":4035.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4042.3865937500004,"end":4043.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4043.19659375,"end":4047.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4047.0440937500007,"end":4047.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4047.41534375,"end":4055.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4056.7472187500007,"end":4065.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4066.4840937500003,"end":4074.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":4074.9384687500005,"end":4074.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4074.97221875,"end":4083.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":4081.46909375,"end":4081.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4081.48596875,"end":4081.8234687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":4081.8234687500008,"end":4081.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4083.52784375,"end":4086.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":4087.07159375,"end":4087.7297187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4087.98284375,"end":4090.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":4092.7584687500002,"end":4124.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4124.854718750001,"end":4129.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4129.7147187499995,"end":4130.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4130.03534375,"end":4152.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4152.61409375,"end":4207.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":4207.542218750001,"end":4208.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4208.03159375,"end":4211.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4208.048468749999,"end":4208.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4211.77784375,"end":4211.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4211.811593750001,"end":4212.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4212.01409375,"end":4242.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4240.5497187500005,"end":4240.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4241.663468750001,"end":4276.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4250.30346875,"end":4252.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4253.69534375,"end":4253.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":4253.712218750001,"end":4254.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4275.835343750001,"end":4288.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4277.151593750001,"end":4277.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4289.11596875,"end":4292.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4292.69346875,"end":4295.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4296.321593750001,"end":4328.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4328.4178437499995,"end":4329.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4330.122218750001,"end":4334.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4335.11721875,"end":4337.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4337.41221875,"end":4350.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_45","start":4350.507218750001,"end":4404.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4404.10221875,"end":4412.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_51","start":4415.661593750001,"end":4478.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_51","start":4479.24659375,"end":4479.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4479.972218749999,"end":4480.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4481.102843750001,"end":4517.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4517.755343750001,"end":4573.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4573.493468750001,"end":4573.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4574.30346875,"end":4582.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4583.432843750001,"end":4584.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4587.077843749999,"end":4589.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4589.50784375,"end":4589.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4590.77346875,"end":4591.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4591.9715937500005,"end":4591.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4591.98846875,"end":4592.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4592.25846875,"end":4592.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4593.70971875,"end":4593.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4593.72659375,"end":4601.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4602.24846875,"end":4612.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4612.575968749999,"end":4658.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4658.762843750001,"end":4660.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4660.80471875,"end":4660.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4661.749718749999,"end":4687.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4688.04096875,"end":4706.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4707.19409375,"end":4757.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4757.802218750001,"end":4788.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4774.626593749999,"end":4774.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4788.042218750001,"end":4788.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4788.599093750001,"end":4820.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4821.80909375,"end":4823.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":4828.3397187499995,"end":4999.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4999.33409375,"end":5002.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":5004.177218750001,"end":5038.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5006.472218750001,"end":5007.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5039.20971875,"end":5040.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5040.880343750001,"end":5040.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5042.517218749999,"end":5065.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5065.534718750001,"end":5083.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5085.126593749999,"end":5086.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5086.93221875,"end":5086.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5087.607218749999,"end":5115.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5117.22284375,"end":5118.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5118.72471875,"end":5140.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5141.235968749999,"end":5145.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5146.0790937500005,"end":5165.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5167.020968750001,"end":5168.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5168.08409375,"end":5168.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5168.3709687499995,"end":5168.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5168.472218750001,"end":5169.079718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5169.079718749999,"end":5169.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5169.11346875,"end":5169.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5169.2822187500005,"end":5169.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5169.34971875,"end":5170.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5171.77971875,"end":5173.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":5175.23909375,"end":5214.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5215.18221875,"end":5218.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5218.10159375,"end":5294.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5294.41034375,"end":5298.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5299.439093749999,"end":5331.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5331.61971875,"end":5349.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5349.99659375,"end":5350.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5350.04721875,"end":5367.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":5369.87534375,"end":5372.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":5372.74409375,"end":5374.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5374.09409375,"end":5375.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5375.190968750001,"end":5375.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":5375.27534375,"end":5375.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5375.35971875,"end":5378.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":5375.44409375,"end":5376.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5381.9072187500005,"end":5385.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":5386.85159375,"end":5387.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5402.714093750001,"end":5402.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5415.690968750001,"end":5416.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5416.14659375,"end":5416.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5416.97346875,"end":5417.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5421.884093750001,"end":5422.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5422.964093750001,"end":5423.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5423.520968750001,"end":5424.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5424.98909375,"end":5426.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5426.524718750001,"end":5428.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5450.655968749999,"end":5453.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5463.784718750001,"end":5463.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5463.970343749999,"end":5472.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5482.7353437500005,"end":5483.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5488.0340937500005,"end":5488.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5488.1522187499995,"end":5488.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5512.97534375,"end":5514.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5514.966593749999,"end":5516.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5517.784718750001,"end":5517.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5517.835343750001,"end":5523.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5523.606593750001,"end":5525.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5527.08284375,"end":5528.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5531.45346875,"end":5531.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5531.841593749999,"end":5531.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5531.92596875,"end":5531.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5531.95971875,"end":5531.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5532.01034375,"end":5532.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5533.731593750001,"end":5536.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5538.30471875,"end":5540.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5541.07221875,"end":5549.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5549.374718749999,"end":5549.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5552.96909375,"end":5553.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":5557.440968750001,"end":5559.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5579.88471875,"end":5581.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5581.774718750001,"end":5600.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5595.25784375,"end":5596.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5597.2997187500005,"end":5598.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5601.872843749999,"end":5603.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5604.20159375,"end":5605.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5609.517218749999,"end":5610.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5610.02346875,"end":5610.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5611.28909375,"end":5611.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5616.67221875,"end":5616.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5619.135968750001,"end":5619.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5620.97534375,"end":5625.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5625.02534375,"end":5660.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5630.88096875,"end":5630.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5630.897843750001,"end":5630.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5630.93159375,"end":5631.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5648.093468749999,"end":5648.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5660.02409375,"end":5660.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5660.057843750001,"end":5661.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5662.200968749999,"end":5662.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5662.97721875,"end":5663.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5665.120343750001,"end":5665.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5665.154093749999,"end":5665.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5665.23846875,"end":5665.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5666.40284375,"end":5666.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5666.63909375,"end":5667.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5667.0272187499995,"end":5667.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5672.764718750001,"end":5675.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5676.224093750001,"end":5680.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5683.98659375,"end":5684.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5684.88096875,"end":5688.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5688.137843750001,"end":5689.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5691.175343750001,"end":5692.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5693.08221875,"end":5693.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5693.11596875,"end":5695.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5695.47846875,"end":5695.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5695.967843750001,"end":5695.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5695.98471875,"end":5696.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5696.001593749999,"end":5699.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5697.09846875,"end":5697.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5698.1278437500005,"end":5698.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5702.7684687500005,"end":5703.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5703.91596875,"end":5706.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5707.13909375,"end":5710.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5709.90659375,"end":5710.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5710.952843749999,"end":5711.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5711.64471875,"end":5714.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5713.78784375,"end":5716.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5714.02409375,"end":5714.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5714.7665937500005,"end":5714.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5715.272843750001,"end":5715.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5716.70721875,"end":5721.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5718.5634687500005,"end":5719.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5719.45784375,"end":5720.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5721.685343749999,"end":5727.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5723.372843749999,"end":5723.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5726.69721875,"end":5726.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5726.714093750001,"end":5727.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5727.034718750001,"end":5727.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5727.135968750001,"end":5727.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5727.96284375,"end":5730.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5730.05534375,"end":5744.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5734.965968750001,"end":5736.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5736.56909375,"end":5736.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5738.12159375,"end":5738.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5738.93159375,"end":5738.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5744.97284375,"end":5745.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5746.626593749999,"end":5746.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5746.997843749999,"end":5747.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5747.014718750001,"end":5747.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5747.53784375,"end":5747.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5747.58846875,"end":5747.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5747.6053437499995,"end":5747.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5747.63909375,"end":5749.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5749.46159375,"end":5749.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5749.866593750001,"end":5749.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5749.88346875,"end":5751.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5751.975968750001,"end":5753.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5753.241593750001,"end":5753.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5754.99659375,"end":5757.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5758.52346875,"end":5759.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5759.704718749999,"end":5759.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5759.82284375,"end":5759.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5759.97471875,"end":5760.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5760.126593749999,"end":5760.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5760.16034375,"end":5760.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5760.177218750001,"end":5760.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5760.19409375,"end":5760.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5760.21096875,"end":5762.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5760.7509687500005,"end":5761.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5762.573468750001,"end":5766.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5764.210343750001,"end":5764.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":5798.517218749999,"end":5799.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":5799.9853437500005,"end":5802.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5808.034718750001,"end":5808.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5808.25409375,"end":5808.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5808.743468750001,"end":5809.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5809.97534375,"end":5810.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5811.67971875,"end":5813.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5813.97471875,"end":5814.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5814.312218749999,"end":5814.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5815.071593750001,"end":5816.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5816.185343749999,"end":5816.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5816.421593749999,"end":5816.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5818.22721875,"end":5823.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5823.89721875,"end":5827.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5830.74846875,"end":5830.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":5830.83284375,"end":5831.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5831.96346875,"end":5832.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5832.95909375,"end":5832.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5832.975968750001,"end":5834.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5834.96721875,"end":5836.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5836.064093750001,"end":5836.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5836.249718749999,"end":5836.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5836.97534375,"end":5837.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5837.059718750001,"end":5837.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5837.194718750001,"end":5838.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5839.28721875,"end":5839.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5839.304093750001,"end":5840.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5841.734093749999,"end":5848.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5849.294093750001,"end":5852.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5852.247218750001,"end":5858.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5859.01409375,"end":5862.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5860.954718750001,"end":5861.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5862.67596875,"end":5864.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5862.81096875,"end":5864.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":5864.41409375,"end":5864.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5864.937218749999,"end":5873.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5871.2822187500005,"end":5872.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5874.1678437499995,"end":5875.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5875.56846875,"end":5877.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5877.01971875,"end":5879.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5879.60159375,"end":5881.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5881.964093750001,"end":5890.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5885.102843750001,"end":5885.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5885.1365937499995,"end":5885.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5886.7059687500005,"end":5886.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5888.190968750001,"end":5888.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5888.714093750001,"end":5888.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5890.80659375,"end":5892.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5891.1103437500005,"end":5891.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":5893.354718750001,"end":5898.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5894.232218749999,"end":5894.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5895.1434687500005,"end":5897.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5898.01221875,"end":5905.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5906.618468750001,"end":5911.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5910.550343750001,"end":5911.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5911.309718750001,"end":5911.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5911.529093749999,"end":5911.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5911.56284375,"end":5923.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":5912.08596875,"end":5912.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5912.187218749999,"end":5912.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5916.15284375,"end":5917.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5918.16096875,"end":5920.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":5924.151593750001,"end":5926.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5993.794718749999,"end":5997.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":5999.07659375,"end":6003.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6003.80159375,"end":6004.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":6004.51034375,"end":6007.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6004.628468750001,"end":6004.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":6007.61534375,"end":6014.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6012.407843750001,"end":6013.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":6014.82096875,"end":6016.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":6025.97534375,"end":6026.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":6027.7978437500005,"end":6027.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6042.81659375,"end":6042.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6042.968468749999,"end":6043.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6044.31846875,"end":6044.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6044.92596875,"end":6045.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6044.95971875,"end":6045.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6046.124093750001,"end":6055.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":6053.009093750001,"end":6054.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":6055.0340937500005,"end":6064.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6061.024718750001,"end":6061.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6061.04159375,"end":6061.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6061.64909375,"end":6061.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6061.733468750001,"end":6061.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6061.9697187500005,"end":6062.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6062.03721875,"end":6062.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6062.054093750001,"end":6062.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6062.138468749999,"end":6062.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6062.155343750001,"end":6063.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6063.977843750001,"end":6064.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6064.61909375,"end":6064.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":6064.70346875,"end":6066.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6064.88909375,"end":6070.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6067.403468750001,"end":6068.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6070.84596875,"end":6076.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6072.0272187499995,"end":6072.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":6072.0947187500005,"end":6074.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":6074.92971875,"end":6076.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":6076.41471875,"end":6076.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6076.5497187500005,"end":6076.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6076.85346875,"end":6078.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":6077.241593750001,"end":6079.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6079.04721875,"end":6083.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":6079.064093750001,"end":6079.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":6079.97534375,"end":6080.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":6080.26221875,"end":6080.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":6085.155968749999,"end":6085.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6086.40471875,"end":6116.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6116.22284375,"end":6118.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6119.07471875,"end":6123.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6123.833468750001,"end":6125.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6127.37721875,"end":6129.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6129.8240937499995,"end":6130.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6130.7353437500005,"end":6131.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6132.62534375,"end":6148.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6148.909718750001,"end":6151.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6152.099093750001,"end":6157.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6158.190968750001,"end":6187.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6187.958468750001,"end":6193.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6194.624093750001,"end":6197.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6198.20159375,"end":6199.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6199.669718749999,"end":6208.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6209.59221875,"end":6235.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6236.794718749999,"end":6238.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6238.38096875,"end":6245.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6247.27409375,"end":6248.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6250.17659375,"end":6357.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6358.42971875,"end":6364.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6364.70721875,"end":6364.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6365.63534375,"end":6369.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6368.706593750001,"end":6369.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6369.972218750001,"end":6370.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6370.022843750001,"end":6374.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6370.259093750001,"end":6370.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6377.07659375,"end":6507.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6507.75659375,"end":6580.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6579.593468749999,"end":6582.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6582.61409375,"end":6611.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6582.698468750001,"end":6583.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6611.97659375,"end":6620.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6612.90471875,"end":6615.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6620.22846875,"end":6620.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6621.39284375,"end":6621.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6621.44346875,"end":6622.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6623.7215937500005,"end":6624.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6624.362843750001,"end":6720.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6720.972218750001,"end":6726.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6726.878468750001,"end":6857.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6858.80721875,"end":6863.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6864.7303437499995,"end":6869.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6869.35409375,"end":6870.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6869.77596875,"end":6873.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6871.80096875,"end":6882.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6875.007218750001,"end":6877.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6877.97721875,"end":6879.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6880.120343750001,"end":6880.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6881.79096875,"end":6885.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6883.545968750001,"end":6888.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6886.6678437499995,"end":6889.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6888.57471875,"end":6889.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6890.009093750001,"end":6914.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6891.089093750001,"end":6891.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6914.96721875,"end":6967.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6924.24846875,"end":6924.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6948.86909375,"end":6951.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6962.841593749999,"end":6963.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6964.5965937500005,"end":6969.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6969.034718750001,"end":6970.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6969.91221875,"end":6971.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6971.295968750001,"end":6974.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6972.15659375,"end":6975.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6974.36721875,"end":6982.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6977.30346875,"end":6977.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":6980.374718750001,"end":6981.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":6981.96096875,"end":6982.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":6982.399718750001,"end":6994.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6983.715968750001,"end":6985.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6986.50034375,"end":6988.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6989.55471875,"end":7002.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6994.448468750001,"end":6995.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6997.31721875,"end":6997.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":6997.33409375,"end":6997.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6997.350968750001,"end":6999.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7001.4853437500005,"end":7005.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7003.9490937499995,"end":7004.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7004.35409375,"end":7005.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7005.501593750001,"end":7008.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7006.294718749999,"end":7006.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7006.56471875,"end":7007.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7007.560343749999,"end":7007.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7007.67846875,"end":7007.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7008.62346875,"end":7008.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7008.876593750001,"end":7009.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7009.635968750001,"end":7009.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7009.97346875,"end":7010.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7010.057843750001,"end":7010.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7010.07471875,"end":7010.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7010.17596875,"end":7010.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7011.10409375,"end":7012.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7011.779093749999,"end":7011.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":7012.09971875,"end":7012.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7012.15034375,"end":7012.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":7012.31909375,"end":7012.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7012.42034375,"end":7016.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7012.4540937500005,"end":7012.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":7012.47096875,"end":7012.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":7013.02784375,"end":7013.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":7013.36534375,"end":7021.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7016.72346875,"end":7029.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7021.161593750001,"end":7021.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":7021.7353437500005,"end":7022.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7022.03909375,"end":7023.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7024.823468750001,"end":7025.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7025.852843750001,"end":7025.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7027.624718750001,"end":7030.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7030.544093750001,"end":7031.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7030.999718750001,"end":7031.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7031.92784375,"end":7035.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7032.34971875,"end":7032.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7034.374718750001,"end":7035.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7035.53909375,"end":7035.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7036.09596875,"end":7045.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7044.5165937500005,"end":7046.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7047.80721875,"end":7048.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7049.798468750001,"end":7064.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7064.513468749999,"end":7067.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7067.73659375,"end":7070.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7070.706593750001,"end":7070.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7070.993468750001,"end":7076.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7076.798468750001,"end":7077.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7078.9247187500005,"end":7081.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7079.78534375,"end":7081.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7082.11409375,"end":7082.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7082.8397187499995,"end":7097.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7097.385968750001,"end":7097.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7097.571593750001,"end":7101.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7102.19534375,"end":7102.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7102.88721875,"end":7103.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7103.190968750001,"end":7103.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7103.22471875,"end":7103.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7103.27534375,"end":7103.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7103.562218750001,"end":7106.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7103.5790937500005,"end":7103.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7103.62971875,"end":7103.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7106.58284375,"end":7109.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7107.57846875,"end":7108.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7109.519093750001,"end":7113.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7110.700343750001,"end":7110.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7110.784718750001,"end":7110.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7110.86909375,"end":7110.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7110.970343750001,"end":7111.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7112.64096875,"end":7121.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7119.593468750001,"end":7121.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7121.77034375,"end":7121.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7121.78721875,"end":7122.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7122.090968750001,"end":7122.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7122.19221875,"end":7122.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7122.42846875,"end":7122.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7122.47909375,"end":7122.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7122.4959687499995,"end":7123.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7123.019093750001,"end":7123.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7123.862843750001,"end":7137.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7124.31846875,"end":7124.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7124.335343750001,"end":7124.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7124.35221875,"end":7124.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7124.385968750001,"end":7124.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7124.4872187500005,"end":7124.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7124.58846875,"end":7124.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7124.655968750001,"end":7124.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7124.858468750001,"end":7124.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7136.9072187500005,"end":7137.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7140.95721875,"end":7142.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7143.640343750001,"end":7143.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7145.294093750001,"end":7146.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7146.9647187499995,"end":7158.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7158.405968750001,"end":7164.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7166.421593750001,"end":7166.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7166.69159375,"end":7166.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7166.7928437499995,"end":7172.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7171.247843749999,"end":7173.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7173.9647187499995,"end":7174.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7174.487843750001,"end":7177.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7177.170968750001,"end":7181.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7178.74034375,"end":7178.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7178.97659375,"end":7179.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7181.45721875,"end":7185.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7185.70971875,"end":7188.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7189.32096875,"end":7191.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7190.02971875,"end":7190.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7192.9490937499995,"end":7194.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7193.8603437500005,"end":7196.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7197.11721875,"end":7198.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7199.091593749999,"end":7199.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7203.44534375,"end":7213.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7206.19596875,"end":7206.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7206.887843750001,"end":7206.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7210.70159375,"end":7210.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7210.769093750001,"end":7212.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7214.81909375,"end":7216.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7217.11409375,"end":7217.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7217.569718750001,"end":7217.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7217.670968750001,"end":7217.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7217.805968750001,"end":7254.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7254.10409375,"end":7254.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7254.745343750001,"end":7254.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7254.9647187499995,"end":7257.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7256.095343750001,"end":7258.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7258.154093749999,"end":7277.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7276.83471875,"end":7282.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7278.370343750001,"end":7292.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7289.474093750001,"end":7289.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7292.477843750001,"end":7296.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7299.6834687499995,"end":7301.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7300.37534375,"end":7300.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7301.235968750001,"end":7301.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7301.843468750001,"end":7302.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7302.53534375,"end":7304.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7304.93159375,"end":7308.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7308.76221875,"end":7309.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7310.1122187500005,"end":7312.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7312.8290937500005,"end":7312.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7312.84596875,"end":7314.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7315.14096875,"end":7319.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7319.140343750001,"end":7324.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7324.69221875,"end":7326.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7324.725968750001,"end":7326.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7327.5272187499995,"end":7328.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7328.472218750001,"end":7332.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7330.733468750001,"end":7332.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7333.0115937499995,"end":7333.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7333.97346875,"end":7334.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7334.04096875,"end":7334.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7334.057843750001,"end":7334.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7335.10409375,"end":7336.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7336.639718750001,"end":7337.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7337.567843750001,"end":7339.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7339.964093750001,"end":7340.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7342.61346875,"end":7345.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7346.41034375,"end":7349.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7354.965968750001,"end":7355.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7355.100968750001,"end":7355.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7365.411593750001,"end":7368.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7370.474093750001,"end":7371.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7372.61721875,"end":7374.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7375.57034375,"end":7381.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7379.198468750001,"end":7380.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7381.628468750001,"end":7386.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7383.14721875,"end":7383.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7384.024718750001,"end":7387.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7387.163468750001,"end":7388.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7388.36159375,"end":7388.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7389.509093750001,"end":7390.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7390.8084687499995,"end":7391.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7392.462218750001,"end":7396.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7394.807843750001,"end":7394.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7394.97659375,"end":7395.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7397.187218750001,"end":7397.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7398.67221875,"end":7399.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7398.72284375,"end":7399.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7399.583468750001,"end":7399.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7399.60034375,"end":7400.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7402.41846875,"end":7402.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7403.1103437500005,"end":7405.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7405.540343750001,"end":7405.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7406.046593750001,"end":7406.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7406.805968750001,"end":7407.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7408.814093750001,"end":7408.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7408.88159375,"end":7410.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7408.98284375,"end":7409.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7409.13471875,"end":7409.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7410.552218750001,"end":7410.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7410.72096875,"end":7411.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7411.75034375,"end":7419.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7415.007218750001,"end":7417.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7418.63534375,"end":7418.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7419.15846875,"end":7419.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7419.225968750001,"end":7419.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7419.25971875,"end":7419.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7419.276593750001,"end":7419.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7419.698468750001,"end":7420.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7420.84596875,"end":7421.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7423.66409375,"end":7427.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7424.11971875,"end":7424.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7427.07284375,"end":7428.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7428.70971875,"end":7429.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7430.78534375,"end":7431.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":7431.66284375,"end":7431.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":7431.7303437499995,"end":7433.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7432.202843750001,"end":7432.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7433.704718750001,"end":7434.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":7433.95784375,"end":7434.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":7434.464093750001,"end":7436.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7436.624093750001,"end":7436.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":7436.708468750001,"end":7436.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":7436.894093750001,"end":7437.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7438.98659375,"end":7444.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7445.061593750001,"end":7451.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7452.38534375,"end":7453.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7454.30909375,"end":7456.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7455.76034375,"end":7457.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7457.02596875,"end":7457.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7458.510968750001,"end":7460.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7460.08034375,"end":7460.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7460.569718750001,"end":7462.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7462.206593750001,"end":7465.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7465.024718750001,"end":7465.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7465.210343750001,"end":7465.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7465.210343750001,"end":7465.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7465.93596875,"end":7489.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7465.9697187500005,"end":7465.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7465.98659375,"end":7466.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7466.8134687500005,"end":7466.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7466.83034375,"end":7467.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7467.420968750001,"end":7467.454718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7469.20971875,"end":7469.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7469.530343750001,"end":7469.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7487.40096875,"end":7487.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7489.442843750001,"end":7491.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7491.29909375,"end":7493.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7491.99096875,"end":7494.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7494.67409375,"end":7495.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7495.669718749999,"end":7499.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7498.909718750001,"end":7499.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":7499.6522187499995,"end":7502.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7500.66471875,"end":7502.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7505.288468750001,"end":7505.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7506.01409375,"end":7506.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7506.0478437500005,"end":7506.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7506.06471875,"end":7506.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7506.081593750001,"end":7506.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7506.11534375,"end":7506.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7506.52034375,"end":7506.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7508.27534375,"end":7508.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7508.292218750001,"end":7509.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7508.325968749999,"end":7508.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7509.979718750001,"end":7520.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7514.11409375,"end":7514.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7521.555968750001,"end":7522.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7523.22659375,"end":7527.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7527.58034375,"end":7527.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7530.499718750001,"end":7536.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7532.72721875,"end":7533.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7541.97471875,"end":7542.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7543.965968750001,"end":7546.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7548.2353437500005,"end":7549.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7549.112843750001,"end":7549.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7555.862843750001,"end":7566.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7567.0340937500005,"end":7572.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7572.80534375,"end":7574.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7575.2353437500005,"end":7578.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7580.6522187499995,"end":7580.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7582.592843750001,"end":7582.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7590.76034375,"end":7591.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7593.561593750001,"end":7595.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7595.0634687500005,"end":7601.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7597.51034375,"end":7598.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7602.0497187500005,"end":7605.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7605.036593750001,"end":7606.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7606.74096875,"end":7607.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7607.9559687500005,"end":7607.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7607.97284375,"end":7608.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7608.02346875,"end":7611.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7611.685343749999,"end":7622.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7611.7528437500005,"end":7614.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7625.3709687499995,"end":7627.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7629.218468750001,"end":7629.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7631.530343750001,"end":7632.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7632.137843750001,"end":7633.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7633.065968750001,"end":7633.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7633.65659375,"end":7634.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7636.069718750001,"end":7637.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7638.58409375,"end":7639.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7640.96346875,"end":7641.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7641.85784375,"end":7642.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7643.49471875,"end":7646.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7643.562218750001,"end":7643.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7650.71721875,"end":7656.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7657.0790937500005,"end":7658.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7660.13346875,"end":7661.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7661.77034375,"end":7666.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7667.27159375,"end":7668.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7669.04346875,"end":7669.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7669.110968750001,"end":7671.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7671.456593750001,"end":7673.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7671.67596875,"end":7671.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7674.44346875,"end":7675.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7675.253468750001,"end":7677.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7677.497843749999,"end":7677.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7677.58221875,"end":7677.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7677.61596875,"end":7677.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7677.63284375,"end":7677.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7679.8603437500005,"end":7686.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7687.724093750001,"end":7688.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7689.39471875,"end":7689.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7689.71534375,"end":7692.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7689.732218749999,"end":7689.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7693.64721875,"end":7695.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7696.870343750001,"end":7697.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7699.04721875,"end":7702.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7706.77596875,"end":7708.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7708.733468750001,"end":7744.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7725.06846875,"end":7725.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7729.202843750001,"end":7729.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7745.993468750001,"end":7753.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7749.8915937500005,"end":7750.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7752.2372187500005,"end":7764.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7754.16096875,"end":7754.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7761.5184687500005,"end":7761.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7762.311593750001,"end":7763.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7763.08784375,"end":7763.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7763.49284375,"end":7766.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7767.62721875,"end":7769.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7770.25971875,"end":7772.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7773.61784375,"end":7776.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7775.30534375,"end":7775.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7776.35159375,"end":7780.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7780.2665937500005,"end":7780.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7780.33409375,"end":7783.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7784.249093750001,"end":7787.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7786.358468750001,"end":7792.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7794.407843750001,"end":7796.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7796.753468750001,"end":7799.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7801.545968750001,"end":7803.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7802.946593750001,"end":7803.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7804.83659375,"end":7806.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7806.99659375,"end":7807.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7808.245343750001,"end":7810.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7812.10971875,"end":7814.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7815.6365937499995,"end":7815.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7816.733468750001,"end":7819.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7819.905968750001,"end":7820.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7821.6103437500005,"end":7822.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7823.60159375,"end":7824.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7825.66034375,"end":7828.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7829.30534375,"end":7829.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7831.718468750001,"end":7834.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7834.57034375,"end":7837.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7839.042218750001,"end":7844.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7841.522843750001,"end":7841.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7841.97846875,"end":7842.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7845.0497187500005,"end":7846.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7847.3447187500005,"end":7851.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7851.95159375,"end":7852.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7859.849093750001,"end":7860.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7861.73909375,"end":7863.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7864.6415937500005,"end":7866.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7866.514718750001,"end":7884.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7872.57284375,"end":7872.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7874.057843750001,"end":7874.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7874.81721875,"end":7875.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7881.76971875,"end":7883.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7885.026593750001,"end":7891.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7888.0809687500005,"end":7889.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7889.279093749999,"end":7889.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7893.29534375,"end":7894.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7894.1728437500005,"end":7894.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7895.657843750001,"end":7895.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7896.788468750001,"end":7904.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7904.82096875,"end":7907.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7909.950968749999,"end":7909.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_47","start":7909.967843750001,"end":7910.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7910.74409375,"end":7910.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7910.760968750001,"end":7912.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7911.840968750001,"end":7914.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7912.88721875,"end":7913.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7913.140343750001,"end":7913.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7914.7772187499995,"end":7914.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7914.81096875,"end":7915.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7916.802218750001,"end":7916.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7916.83596875,"end":7918.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7917.595343750001,"end":7917.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7918.27034375,"end":7918.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7919.097218750001,"end":7921.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7919.147843750001,"end":7919.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7919.77221875,"end":7919.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7922.92784375,"end":7929.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7922.995343750001,"end":7923.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7923.01221875,"end":7923.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7923.029093749999,"end":7924.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7930.18409375,"end":7931.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7931.888468749999,"end":7932.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7933.18784375,"end":7936.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7936.88346875,"end":7938.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7939.1278437500005,"end":7939.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7939.14471875,"end":7967.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7939.19534375,"end":7939.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":7939.684718750001,"end":7939.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7967.91659375,"end":7969.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7969.536593750001,"end":7970.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7970.41409375,"end":7970.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":7970.44784375,"end":7971.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7971.84846875,"end":7972.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7971.932843750001,"end":7976.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7973.8397187499995,"end":7974.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7974.649718750001,"end":7974.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7978.1259687500005,"end":7979.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7979.340968750001,"end":7982.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7982.59784375,"end":7983.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7983.323468750001,"end":7985.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7986.02346875,"end":7987.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7986.040343750001,"end":7986.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7987.05284375,"end":7987.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7987.069718750001,"end":7987.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7987.170968750001,"end":7987.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7987.23846875,"end":7987.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7987.47471875,"end":7990.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7990.309718750001,"end":7991.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7991.17034375,"end":7993.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7993.88721875,"end":7994.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7994.68034375,"end":7996.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7997.59971875,"end":7998.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7998.44346875,"end":8000.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8001.936593750001,"end":8005.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8005.41284375,"end":8006.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8006.104718750001,"end":8008.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8009.715968750001,"end":8013.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8014.390343750001,"end":8022.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8018.87909375,"end":8018.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8022.507218750001,"end":8024.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8024.9540937500005,"end":8026.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8029.020968750001,"end":8031.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8030.13471875,"end":8030.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8030.40471875,"end":8030.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8031.29909375,"end":8032.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8033.40846875,"end":8034.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8034.420968750001,"end":8036.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8036.3447187500005,"end":8036.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8037.171593750001,"end":8037.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8038.33596875,"end":8040.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8040.81659375,"end":8042.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8042.470343750001,"end":8042.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8042.55471875,"end":8042.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8042.95971875,"end":8043.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8043.34784375,"end":8044.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8045.237843750001,"end":8047.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8047.499093750001,"end":8048.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8049.372218750001,"end":8049.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8049.827843750001,"end":8050.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8049.8447187500005,"end":8052.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8050.536593750001,"end":8052.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8052.780968750001,"end":8054.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8055.00846875,"end":8055.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8055.95346875,"end":8057.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8058.366593750001,"end":8058.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8058.923468750001,"end":8061.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8061.01596875,"end":8061.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8061.70784375,"end":8063.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8063.68221875,"end":8064.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8064.30659375,"end":8066.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8066.83784375,"end":8072.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8072.423468750001,"end":8075.747843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8075.190968750001,"end":8077.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8078.616593750001,"end":8079.544718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8080.37159375,"end":8080.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8081.670968750001,"end":8086.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8082.58221875,"end":8083.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8086.41284375,"end":8087.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8088.505343750001,"end":8092.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8093.145968750001,"end":8095.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8094.968468750001,"end":8096.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8096.26784375,"end":8098.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8098.32659375,"end":8098.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8098.7822187500005,"end":8100.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8100.80721875,"end":8106.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8105.65034375,"end":8107.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8108.198468750001,"end":8108.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8108.50221875,"end":8110.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8110.206593750001,"end":8111.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8112.16409375,"end":8113.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8113.69971875,"end":8113.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8113.767218750001,"end":8113.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8113.80096875,"end":8113.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8113.85159375,"end":8113.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8113.868468750001,"end":8114.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8113.88534375,"end":8114.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8114.27346875,"end":8116.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8117.04096875,"end":8119.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8118.71159375,"end":8119.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8119.8084687499995,"end":8122.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8122.03596875,"end":8123.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8124.06096875,"end":8128.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8129.0897187499995,"end":8129.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8129.96721875,"end":8132.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8133.561593750001,"end":8134.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8134.590968750001,"end":8138.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8138.74221875,"end":8139.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8139.33284375,"end":8140.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8140.5478437500005,"end":8141.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8140.85159375,"end":8142.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8142.38721875,"end":8143.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8143.399718750001,"end":8147.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8147.87159375,"end":8149.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8149.98096875,"end":8153.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8153.50784375,"end":8155.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8154.7059687500005,"end":8158.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8158.6884687500005,"end":8159.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8160.6122187500005,"end":8167.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8167.75034375,"end":8168.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8168.54346875,"end":8171.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8169.53909375,"end":8171.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8172.036593750001,"end":8172.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8172.8465937500005,"end":8177.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8178.16221875,"end":8181.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8181.25034375,"end":8181.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8181.4022187499995,"end":8181.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8182.51596875,"end":8183.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8184.4228437500005,"end":8186.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8186.81909375,"end":8187.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8188.304093750001,"end":8188.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8188.33784375,"end":8188.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8190.042218750001,"end":8193.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8190.784718750001,"end":8191.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8195.47596875,"end":8195.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8195.543468750002,"end":8195.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8195.644718750002,"end":8195.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8195.847218750001,"end":8210.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8199.32346875,"end":8200.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8210.27534375,"end":8211.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8212.215968750003,"end":8212.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8212.80659375,"end":8219.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8217.49784375,"end":8220.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8220.180968749999,"end":8220.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8220.265343750001,"end":8221.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8220.97409375,"end":8220.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8221.547843750002,"end":8223.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8221.98659375,"end":8222.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8222.813468750002,"end":8222.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8222.89784375,"end":8222.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8223.539093750001,"end":8223.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8223.62346875,"end":8223.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8223.809093750002,"end":8223.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8223.89346875,"end":8224.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8224.26471875,"end":8225.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8226.15471875,"end":8227.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8229.445343750001,"end":8231.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8232.78659375,"end":8234.102843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8232.80346875,"end":8233.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8234.49096875,"end":8234.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8235.030968750001,"end":8238.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8236.16159375,"end":8237.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8238.996593750002,"end":8240.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8241.207218750002,"end":8244.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8245.172843750002,"end":8246.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8245.88159375,"end":8247.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8247.87284375,"end":8248.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8251.78784375,"end":8257.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8254.454093750002,"end":8254.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8254.487843750001,"end":8255.618468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8258.031593750002,"end":8258.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8260.90034375,"end":8261.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8261.997218750003,"end":8266.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8266.80659375,"end":8269.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8269.050968750002,"end":8273.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8269.894718750002,"end":8270.805968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8272.577843750001,"end":8272.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8273.843468750001,"end":8273.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8273.87721875,"end":8274.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8274.72096875,"end":8276.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8276.762843750003,"end":8280.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8280.239093750002,"end":8280.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8280.67784375,"end":8282.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8282.449718750002,"end":8286.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8287.191593750002,"end":8288.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8289.48659375,"end":8289.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8290.347218750001,"end":8292.743468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8294.71784375,"end":8296.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8296.77659375,"end":8300.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8299.004093750002,"end":8299.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8299.02096875,"end":8299.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8299.25721875,"end":8299.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8303.492843750002,"end":8303.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8304.79221875,"end":8306.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8307.542843750001,"end":8312.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8312.774093750002,"end":8313.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8314.731593750003,"end":8315.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8316.97596875,"end":8319.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8318.64659375,"end":8322.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8319.92909375,"end":8322.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8322.34221875,"end":8322.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8322.66284375,"end":8323.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8324.82284375,"end":8324.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8324.907218750002,"end":8325.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8327.28659375,"end":8327.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8327.387843750003,"end":8328.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8328.265343750001,"end":8329.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8329.024718750003,"end":8329.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8329.277843750002,"end":8329.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8329.699718750002,"end":8338.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8329.71659375,"end":8329.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8329.750343750002,"end":8329.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8338.086593750002,"end":8340.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8339.01471875,"end":8339.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8339.183468750001,"end":8341.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8340.820343750001,"end":8342.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8342.76096875,"end":8343.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8343.90846875,"end":8346.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8346.473468750002,"end":8347.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8348.24534375,"end":8350.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8350.70909375,"end":8353.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8354.62409375,"end":8355.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8355.99096875,"end":8358.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8359.58534375,"end":8360.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8360.327843750001,"end":8361.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8361.89721875,"end":8363.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8363.129093750002,"end":8363.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8363.14596875,"end":8363.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8363.38221875,"end":8363.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8368.52909375,"end":8378.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8369.946593750003,"end":8370.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8375.093468750001,"end":8375.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8375.110343750002,"end":8375.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8379.02534375,"end":8379.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8379.56534375,"end":8380.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8381.590343750002,"end":8384.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8384.18909375,"end":8386.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8387.445968750002,"end":8388.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8389.285343750002,"end":8390.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8390.73659375,"end":8392.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8393.402843750002,"end":8395.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8395.934093750002,"end":8396.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8396.74409375,"end":8397.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8397.925343750001,"end":8401.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8404.371593750002,"end":8406.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8407.223468750002,"end":8412.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8414.19284375,"end":8415.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8414.68221875,"end":8415.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8416.67346875,"end":8418.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8417.753468750001,"end":8425.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8419.187843750002,"end":8419.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8419.99784375,"end":8421.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8421.60096875,"end":8421.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8426.039093750001,"end":8426.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8426.66346875,"end":8430.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8430.49409375,"end":8430.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8430.96659375,"end":8431.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8432.24909375,"end":8433.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8433.261593750001,"end":8438.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8436.78846875,"end":8437.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8440.112843750001,"end":8441.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8440.14659375,"end":8443.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8444.93909375,"end":8447.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8450.879093750002,"end":8453.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8451.16596875,"end":8451.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8454.50721875,"end":8456.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8456.97096875,"end":8458.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8460.059093750002,"end":8460.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8460.700343750003,"end":8464.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8463.383468750002,"end":8465.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8465.66159375,"end":8465.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8465.914718750002,"end":8466.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8466.03284375,"end":8466.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8467.63596875,"end":8470.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8471.179718750001,"end":8472.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8472.597218750001,"end":8474.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8474.48721875,"end":8475.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8475.21284375,"end":8476.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8476.96784375,"end":8479.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8481.59159375,"end":8482.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8482.637843750003,"end":8484.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8484.07221875,"end":8486.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8484.105968750002,"end":8484.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8484.359093750001,"end":8484.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8487.734093750001,"end":8489.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8489.809718750003,"end":8490.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8492.67846875,"end":8493.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8493.640343750001,"end":8494.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8494.29846875,"end":8496.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8496.340343750002,"end":8499.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8500.457843750002,"end":8502.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8503.461593750002,"end":8505.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8505.030968750001,"end":8505.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8505.38534375,"end":8505.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8505.70596875,"end":8507.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8507.460968750001,"end":8508.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8508.16971875,"end":8509.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8509.95846875,"end":8510.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8510.684093750002,"end":8512.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8512.18596875,"end":8515.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8515.18971875,"end":8518.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8518.66596875,"end":8519.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8519.35784375,"end":8519.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8519.50971875,"end":8523.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8523.20534375,"end":8523.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8523.610343750002,"end":8528.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8528.33534375,"end":8529.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8531.879093750002,"end":8532.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8532.75659375,"end":8533.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8533.27971875,"end":8533.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8533.634093750003,"end":8533.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8534.42721875,"end":8536.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8537.19471875,"end":8538.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8539.65846875,"end":8540.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8541.04221875,"end":8542.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8542.56096875,"end":8543.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8544.02909375,"end":8544.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8545.29471875,"end":8546.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8546.070968750002,"end":8551.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8551.335968750001,"end":8555.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8554.508468750002,"end":8556.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8557.15784375,"end":8558.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8559.030968750001,"end":8560.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8561.32596875,"end":8565.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8565.56159375,"end":8566.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8567.519093750001,"end":8571.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8571.34971875,"end":8572.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8573.543468750002,"end":8577.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8578.454093750002,"end":8578.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8579.11221875,"end":8583.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8583.449093750001,"end":8586.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8595.008468750002,"end":8595.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8595.59909375,"end":8599.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8599.446593750003,"end":8605.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8606.230343750001,"end":8606.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8606.90534375,"end":8607.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8607.31034375,"end":8607.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8608.761593750001,"end":8613.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8609.453468750002,"end":8609.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8610.617843750002,"end":8613.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8614.07721875,"end":8621.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8618.987843750001,"end":8622.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8622.02534375,"end":8634.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8626.31159375,"end":8626.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8633.449718750002,"end":8636.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8636.31846875,"end":8640.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8640.672218750002,"end":8640.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8640.68909375,"end":8644.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8642.64659375,"end":8643.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8645.38034375,"end":8645.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8646.156593750002,"end":8648.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8649.09284375,"end":8650.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8650.93221875,"end":8652.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8652.45096875,"end":8654.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8653.31159375,"end":8654.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8654.25659375,"end":8656.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8654.324093750001,"end":8654.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8659.825343750003,"end":8668.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8668.60034375,"end":8669.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8670.13596875,"end":8673.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8672.684093750002,"end":8676.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8676.81846875,"end":8679.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8679.383468750002,"end":8679.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8679.45096875,"end":8682.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8682.15096875,"end":8685.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8686.032218750002,"end":8688.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8688.05721875,"end":8691.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8691.027218750001,"end":8702.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8703.59909375,"end":8705.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8705.337218750003,"end":8709.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8709.859718750002,"end":8712.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8711.344718750002,"end":8712.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8712.79596875,"end":8714.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8714.871593750002,"end":8716.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8716.47471875,"end":8719.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8717.824718750002,"end":8718.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8720.355968750002,"end":8722.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8721.925343750001,"end":8724.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8722.414718750002,"end":8722.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8725.43534375,"end":8727.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8727.17346875,"end":8728.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8729.35034375,"end":8730.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8731.02096875,"end":8733.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8733.265343750001,"end":8735.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8736.45471875,"end":8738.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8738.024093750002,"end":8739.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8741.550968750002,"end":8742.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8743.25534375,"end":8745.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8745.17909375,"end":8749.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8749.02659375,"end":8750.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8750.49471875,"end":8755.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8755.35471875,"end":8756.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8756.805968750003,"end":8760.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8760.687218750001,"end":8760.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8760.92346875,"end":8762.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8763.04971875,"end":8763.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8763.40409375,"end":8763.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8763.45471875,"end":8765.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8764.72034375,"end":8765.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8765.41221875,"end":8767.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8768.179718750001,"end":8769.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8769.934718750003,"end":8770.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8770.12034375,"end":8771.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8772.58409375,"end":8774.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8774.828468750002,"end":8778.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8779.38471875,"end":8780.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8780.80221875,"end":8780.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8780.852843750003,"end":8782.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8782.962218750003,"end":8787.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8787.78846875,"end":8793.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8787.88971875,"end":8788.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8792.125343750002,"end":8796.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8797.32284375,"end":8798.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8798.85846875,"end":8799.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8799.26346875,"end":8799.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8799.85409375,"end":8801.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":8806.587218750003,"end":8807.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8807.481593750003,"end":8809.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":8809.202843750001,"end":8813.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8813.016593750002,"end":8816.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_49","start":8813.067218750002,"end":8813.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8816.77971875,"end":8819.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8820.47534375,"end":8827.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8827.05659375,"end":8831.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8832.13596875,"end":8834.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8833.688468750002,"end":8833.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8835.308468750001,"end":8836.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8836.65846875,"end":8839.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8839.56096875,"end":8843.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8843.66159375,"end":8846.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8846.024093750002,"end":8856.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8857.33034375,"end":8866.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8857.634093750003,"end":8858.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8867.067218750002,"end":8867.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8867.62409375,"end":8869.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8869.66596875,"end":8869.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8869.88534375,"end":8870.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8870.72909375,"end":8870.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8871.285968750002,"end":8872.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8874.10409375,"end":8876.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8874.222218750001,"end":8875.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8876.922218750002,"end":8877.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8876.95596875,"end":8877.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8877.74909375,"end":8877.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8877.79971875,"end":8879.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8877.934718750003,"end":8878.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8879.453468750002,"end":8887.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8887.367843750002,"end":8887.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8888.582843750002,"end":8889.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8890.270343750002,"end":8890.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8891.046593750001,"end":8892.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8892.227843750003,"end":8893.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8893.915343750003,"end":8893.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8893.93221875,"end":8893.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8893.965968750003,"end":8894.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8894.809718750003,"end":8895.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8896.007843750001,"end":8897.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8897.52659375,"end":8898.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8898.437843750002,"end":8900.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8901.27284375,"end":8910.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8911.262843750003,"end":8913.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8913.92909375,"end":8914.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8914.90784375,"end":8914.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8914.992218750001,"end":8915.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8915.49846875,"end":8915.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8915.515343750001,"end":8915.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8915.565968750001,"end":8917.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8915.59971875,"end":8919.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8917.995968750001,"end":8919.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8919.210968750001,"end":8920.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8920.122218750003,"end":8920.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8920.18971875,"end":8921.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8921.421593750001,"end":8922.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8924.47596875,"end":8925.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8925.539093750001,"end":8926.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8926.09596875,"end":8927.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8928.82971875,"end":8929.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8929.285343750002,"end":8932.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8932.94721875,"end":8933.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8934.26346875,"end":8935.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8934.85409375,"end":8939.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8939.984093750001,"end":8940.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8940.01784375,"end":8940.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8940.33846875,"end":8940.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8940.878468750001,"end":8944.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8944.101593750001,"end":8944.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8944.169093750003,"end":8944.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8944.18596875,"end":8944.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8944.86096875,"end":8945.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8945.02971875,"end":8947.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8947.35846875,"end":8952.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8947.66221875,"end":8948.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8950.109093750001,"end":8950.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8952.387218750002,"end":8959.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8959.05284375,"end":8962.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8962.96784375,"end":8962.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8963.355968750002,"end":8963.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8963.37284375,"end":8966.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8963.44034375,"end":8963.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8963.828468750002,"end":8964.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8964.098468750002,"end":8965.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8966.562218750001,"end":8966.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8966.86596875,"end":8966.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8967.000968750002,"end":8971.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8968.87409375,"end":8970.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8971.87784375,"end":8979.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8979.184718750003,"end":8980.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8980.180343750002,"end":8980.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8980.804718750001,"end":8985.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8985.37784375,"end":8988.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8989.782218750002,"end":8989.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8989.832843750002,"end":8989.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8989.883468750002,"end":8989.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8989.96784375,"end":8998.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8990.91284375,"end":8991.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8998.87784375,"end":8998.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8998.92846875,"end":8998.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":8999.02971875,"end":9001.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9001.155968750001,"end":9006.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9007.973468750002,"end":9016.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9008.83409375,"end":9008.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9008.88471875,"end":9009.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9011.027843750002,"end":9011.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9011.11221875,"end":9011.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9015.668468750002,"end":9016.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9017.153468750003,"end":9018.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9017.879093750002,"end":9019.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9019.144718750002,"end":9021.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9022.35096875,"end":9024.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9024.03846875,"end":9024.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9024.08909375,"end":9024.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9024.308468750001,"end":9024.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9024.375968750002,"end":9024.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9024.51096875,"end":9030.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9029.50596875,"end":9029.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9030.55221875,"end":9031.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9031.39596875,"end":9032.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9032.62784375,"end":9035.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9035.04096875,"end":9035.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9035.969093750002,"end":9036.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9036.05346875,"end":9036.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9036.15471875,"end":9036.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9036.239093750002,"end":9038.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9037.707218750002,"end":9044.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9045.75659375,"end":9051.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9051.03846875,"end":9053.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9053.856593750003,"end":9058.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9059.13846875,"end":9061.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9061.602218750002,"end":9062.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9062.20971875,"end":9062.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9063.087218750003,"end":9067.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9067.74471875,"end":9071.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9071.01846875,"end":9074.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9075.64221875,"end":9080.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9081.24471875,"end":9087.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9083.590343750002,"end":9084.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9084.231593750003,"end":9085.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9085.63221875,"end":9086.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9086.762843750003,"end":9087.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9087.03284375,"end":9090.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9090.120968750001,"end":9091.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9092.63534375,"end":9094.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9094.457843750002,"end":9101.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9101.86596875,"end":9102.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9102.152843750002,"end":9102.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9102.55784375,"end":9102.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9102.996593750002,"end":9103.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9103.75596875,"end":9103.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9103.992218750001,"end":9104.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9104.02596875,"end":9105.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9105.13971875,"end":9105.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9105.156593750002,"end":9105.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9105.17346875,"end":9108.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9107.046593750001,"end":9111.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9110.50596875,"end":9110.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9112.46346875,"end":9115.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9114.67409375,"end":9115.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9115.028468750003,"end":9115.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9115.079093750002,"end":9115.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9115.500968750002,"end":9115.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9115.956593750001,"end":9119.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9119.652218750001,"end":9120.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9120.22596875,"end":9120.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9120.242843750002,"end":9120.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9120.32721875,"end":9120.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9120.462218750003,"end":9120.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9122.200343750003,"end":9123.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":9124.20846875,"end":9124.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9125.946593750003,"end":9129.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9135.86909375,"end":9136.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9137.15159375,"end":9144.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9137.387843750003,"end":9138.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9139.46346875,"end":9140.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9140.847218750001,"end":9148.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9148.137218750002,"end":9148.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9148.17096875,"end":9148.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9150.972218750001,"end":9153.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9153.503468750001,"end":9153.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9154.97159375,"end":9155.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9155.039093750001,"end":9155.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9155.579093750002,"end":9155.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9155.59596875,"end":9158.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9158.32971875,"end":9158.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9158.464718750001,"end":9159.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9160.82721875,"end":9169.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9161.02971875,"end":9161.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9161.485343750002,"end":9162.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9164.30346875,"end":9168.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9169.804718750001,"end":9170.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9170.14221875,"end":9170.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":9170.15909375,"end":9170.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9170.226593750001,"end":9170.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":9170.36159375,"end":9170.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9170.83409375,"end":9171.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9171.930968750003,"end":9172.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9173.90534375,"end":9175.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9175.96409375,"end":9176.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":9176.031593750002,"end":9178.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9176.250968750002,"end":9179.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9178.37721875,"end":9178.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9178.410968750002,"end":9181.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9180.63846875,"end":9180.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9180.68909375,"end":9180.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9181.02659375,"end":9181.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":9181.07721875,"end":9181.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9181.90409375,"end":9181.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9181.97159375,"end":9182.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":9182.039093750001,"end":9182.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":9182.07284375,"end":9183.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9182.22471875,"end":9182.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9183.54096875,"end":9183.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":9183.878468750001,"end":9184.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_52","start":9185.211593750002,"end":9186.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9192.062843750002,"end":9194.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9194.83034375,"end":9201.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9198.74534375,"end":9198.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9198.964718750001,"end":9199.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9199.15034375,"end":9199.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9199.234718750002,"end":9199.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9199.72409375,"end":9199.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9199.84221875,"end":9199.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9200.027843750002,"end":9202.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9202.035968750002,"end":9202.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9202.05284375,"end":9202.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9202.06971875,"end":9202.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9202.10346875,"end":9202.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9202.440968750001,"end":9202.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9202.778468750003,"end":9211.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9207.570968750002,"end":9214.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9211.97534375,"end":9216.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9214.45596875,"end":9216.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9216.750968750002,"end":9218.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9218.168468750002,"end":9218.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9218.65784375,"end":9218.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9218.67471875,"end":9218.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9218.70846875,"end":9219.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9219.906593750002,"end":9223.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9219.94034375,"end":9220.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9220.24409375,"end":9220.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9222.50534375,"end":9226.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9227.58471875,"end":9227.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9228.05721875,"end":9231.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9232.32659375,"end":9233.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9238.519718750002,"end":9241.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9238.75596875,"end":9238.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9238.789718750002,"end":9238.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9238.97534375,"end":9239.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9239.02596875,"end":9251.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9241.30409375,"end":9242.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9248.50971875,"end":9250.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9251.024093750002,"end":9254.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9251.05784375,"end":9251.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9255.462218750003,"end":9256.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9257.16659375,"end":9262.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9260.71034375,"end":9260.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9262.02659375,"end":9262.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9262.39784375,"end":9262.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9262.414718750002,"end":9262.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9262.44846875,"end":9263.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9263.96721875,"end":9272.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9265.82346875,"end":9266.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9267.71346875,"end":9273.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9272.28659375,"end":9272.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9272.65784375,"end":9272.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9272.97846875,"end":9273.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9273.24846875,"end":9273.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9273.383468750002,"end":9273.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9273.46784375,"end":9273.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9276.235343750002,"end":9278.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9278.95221875,"end":9281.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9281.41596875,"end":9282.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9282.968468750001,"end":9284.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9285.027218750001,"end":9285.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9286.74846875,"end":9287.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9287.946593750003,"end":9288.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9288.925343750001,"end":9289.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9290.34284375,"end":9291.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9292.48596875,"end":9294.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9294.257843750001,"end":9294.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9294.59534375,"end":9294.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9294.96659375,"end":9295.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9295.72596875,"end":9295.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9296.13096875,"end":9296.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9297.29534375,"end":9298.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9299.438468750002,"end":9300.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9301.379093750002,"end":9305.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9303.50534375,"end":9305.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9305.648468750001,"end":9305.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9305.766593750002,"end":9305.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9305.969093750002,"end":9306.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9306.019718750002,"end":9312.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9313.832843750002,"end":9317.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9317.258468750002,"end":9318.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9319.587218750003,"end":9320.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9321.13971875,"end":9323.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9323.535968750002,"end":9327.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9327.02909375,"end":9328.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9327.72096875,"end":9327.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9327.737843750001,"end":9327.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9327.906593750002,"end":9327.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9328.952843750001,"end":9329.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9329.50971875,"end":9333.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9329.57721875,"end":9330.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9331.551593750002,"end":9332.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9332.024093750002,"end":9332.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9332.378468750001,"end":9336.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9333.171593750001,"end":9333.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9333.542843750001,"end":9333.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9333.593468750001,"end":9333.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9333.67784375,"end":9333.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9333.711593750002,"end":9334.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9334.032218750002,"end":9338.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9336.47909375,"end":9336.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9338.504093750002,"end":9338.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9340.02284375,"end":9347.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9340.96784375,"end":9341.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9341.96346875,"end":9342.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":9342.13221875,"end":9342.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9343.769093750001,"end":9346.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":9351.059093750002,"end":9353.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9355.176593750002,"end":9359.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9361.808468750001,"end":9363.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9364.778468750003,"end":9365.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9365.976593750001,"end":9372.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9380.539718750002,"end":9382.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9384.15096875,"end":9385.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9386.20971875,"end":9392.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9393.077843750001,"end":9393.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9393.128468750001,"end":9393.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9393.21284375,"end":9393.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9394.64721875,"end":9395.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9397.02659375,"end":9397.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9397.515968750002,"end":9400.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9399.28784375,"end":9402.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9402.207218750002,"end":9402.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9402.66284375,"end":9402.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9402.98346875,"end":9404.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9403.01721875,"end":9404.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9404.215343750002,"end":9404.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9404.957843750002,"end":9412.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9413.26034375,"end":9420.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9421.090343750002,"end":9431.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9432.34596875,"end":9437.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9437.98221875,"end":9440.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9440.699093750001,"end":9442.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9442.58909375,"end":9444.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9445.17096875,"end":9447.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9447.36471875,"end":9451.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9451.80284375,"end":9477.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9476.879093750002,"end":9477.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9485.72159375,"end":9487.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9488.067218750002,"end":9538.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9538.91159375,"end":9542.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9543.87284375,"end":9545.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9544.36221875,"end":9544.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9544.649093750002,"end":9544.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9544.73346875,"end":9544.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9545.05409375,"end":9545.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9545.391593750002,"end":9545.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9547.973468750002,"end":9548.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":9548.766593750002,"end":9548.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9548.969093750002,"end":9549.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9549.171593750001,"end":9567.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9567.362843750001,"end":9569.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9569.10096875,"end":9570.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9570.214718750001,"end":9571.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9571.750343750002,"end":9574.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9575.26034375,"end":9576.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9577.403468750003,"end":9579.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9579.242843750002,"end":9580.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9580.27221875,"end":9588.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9586.836593750002,"end":9591.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9589.95846875,"end":9595.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9593.805968750003,"end":9596.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9596.03346875,"end":9598.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9597.46784375,"end":9601.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9599.290343750003,"end":9617.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9601.652843750002,"end":9603.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9604.94346875,"end":9605.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9607.660343750002,"end":9608.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9613.887218750002,"end":9614.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9615.945968750002,"end":9619.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9618.578468750002,"end":9620.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9620.316593750002,"end":9624.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9620.940968750001,"end":9621.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9622.324718750002,"end":9623.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9625.29471875,"end":9629.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9629.344718750002,"end":9636.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9636.499718750001,"end":9639.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9639.95909375,"end":9642.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9642.827843750001,"end":9643.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9643.97534375,"end":9662.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9663.16221875,"end":9670.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9670.13159375,"end":9673.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9673.48971875,"end":9678.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9678.737843750001,"end":9680.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9680.50971875,"end":9691.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9692.406593750002,"end":9705.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9706.14284375,"end":9716.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9717.094718750002,"end":9765.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9765.711593750002,"end":9774.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9774.26721875,"end":9778.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9778.570343750001,"end":9782.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9782.13096875,"end":9795.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9795.47909375,"end":9816.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9817.26471875,"end":9821.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9822.31034375,"end":9823.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9825.094718750002,"end":9825.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9827.84534375,"end":9828.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9828.90846875,"end":9832.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":9830.359718750002,"end":9846.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9832.11471875,"end":9832.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9834.03846875,"end":9834.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9834.274718750003,"end":9834.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9835.23659375,"end":9835.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9835.45596875,"end":9836.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9836.940968750001,"end":9837.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9840.46784375,"end":9840.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9843.82596875,"end":9844.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9844.26471875,"end":9844.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9846.120968750001,"end":9850.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":9850.96409375,"end":9886.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9851.09909375,"end":9851.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":9886.688468750002,"end":9903.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9903.42846875,"end":9904.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9904.035968750002,"end":9913.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9913.620968750001,"end":9948.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9949.56471875,"end":9952.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9952.500968750002,"end":9953.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9954.05346875,"end":9954.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9955.437218750001,"end":9962.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9963.58784375,"end":9974.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9974.13471875,"end":9976.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9977.15534375,"end":9978.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9978.690968750001,"end":9979.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9980.024093750002,"end":9981.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9981.542843750001,"end":9987.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9987.43221875,"end":9987.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9988.461593750002,"end":9990.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9990.824093750001,"end":9992.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9992.258468750002,"end":10000.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10000.544093750003,"end":10004.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10004.77971875,"end":10011.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10011.25971875,"end":10020.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10020.64221875,"end":10026.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10021.367843750002,"end":10021.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":10026.632843750001,"end":10047.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10047.23721875,"end":10052.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10052.535968750002,"end":10054.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10057.902218750001,"end":10060.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10058.644718750002,"end":10058.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10058.66159375,"end":10059.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10059.707843750002,"end":10059.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10062.94784375,"end":10064.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10065.36096875,"end":10068.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10069.00596875,"end":10069.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10071.73971875,"end":10072.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10071.97596875,"end":10072.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10073.562218750001,"end":10075.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10074.743468750003,"end":10075.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10076.059718750003,"end":10076.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10076.97096875,"end":10077.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10077.59534375,"end":10081.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10082.067218750002,"end":10087.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10085.62784375,"end":10087.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10087.19721875,"end":10087.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10087.73721875,"end":10093.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10089.99846875,"end":10092.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10093.52534375,"end":10093.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10094.605343750001,"end":10096.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10096.680968750003,"end":10099.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10099.144718750002,"end":10100.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10101.43971875,"end":10102.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10103.19471875,"end":10108.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10109.10096875,"end":10110.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10110.40034375,"end":10110.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10110.41721875,"end":10111.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10111.73346875,"end":10113.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10111.851593750001,"end":10112.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10114.500968750002,"end":10116.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10116.863468750002,"end":10118.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10120.06971875,"end":10120.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10120.812218750001,"end":10121.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10122.48284375,"end":10124.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10125.60471875,"end":10131.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10125.63846875,"end":10127.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10133.56971875,"end":10136.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10136.489093750002,"end":10141.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10141.88909375,"end":10145.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10143.390968750002,"end":10144.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10145.348468750002,"end":10145.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10146.05721875,"end":10146.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10146.242843750002,"end":10150.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10148.06534375,"end":10148.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10150.934093750002,"end":10154.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10151.136593750001,"end":10152.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10152.840968750003,"end":10153.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10154.37659375,"end":10155.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10156.50284375,"end":10157.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10160.24909375,"end":10160.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10160.77221875,"end":10162.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10162.695968750002,"end":10163.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10163.97846875,"end":10166.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10166.89784375,"end":10167.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10167.62346875,"end":10169.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10169.766593750002,"end":10171.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10172.601593750001,"end":10175.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10177.79909375,"end":10178.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10178.38971875,"end":10179.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10178.929718750001,"end":10179.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":10179.047843750002,"end":10179.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10179.402218750001,"end":10179.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10180.90409375,"end":10186.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10189.29096875,"end":10191.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10193.98221875,"end":10195.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10194.235343750002,"end":10195.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10196.41221875,"end":10196.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10196.547218750002,"end":10197.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10197.644093750001,"end":10198.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10197.99846875,"end":10200.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10201.15409375,"end":10201.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10201.59284375,"end":10201.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10201.74471875,"end":10201.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10201.99784375,"end":10202.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10203.43221875,"end":10206.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10203.769718750002,"end":10207.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10206.38534375,"end":10207.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10208.832218750002,"end":10210.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10211.160968750002,"end":10221.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10213.03409375,"end":10213.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10213.118468750003,"end":10213.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10213.81034375,"end":10213.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10213.945343750001,"end":10213.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10213.962218750003,"end":10213.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10214.02971875,"end":10214.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10218.282218750002,"end":10225.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10222.028468750003,"end":10222.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10222.14659375,"end":10222.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10222.88909375,"end":10222.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10225.96034375,"end":10227.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10226.58471875,"end":10226.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10226.770343750002,"end":10234.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":10232.035343750002,"end":10232.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10235.089718750001,"end":10237.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":10236.69284375,"end":10236.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10236.76034375,"end":10237.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10237.40159375,"end":10241.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10241.87346875,"end":10241.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10241.907218750002,"end":10241.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10241.97471875,"end":10242.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10242.02534375,"end":10242.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10242.059093750002,"end":10242.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10242.109718750002,"end":10242.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10243.08846875,"end":10243.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10245.332843750002,"end":10248.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10250.15909375,"end":10250.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10251.070343750001,"end":10251.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10251.087218750003,"end":10253.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10253.922218750002,"end":10256.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10256.976593750001,"end":10257.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10258.69784375,"end":10259.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10260.48659375,"end":10261.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10262.24159375,"end":10265.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10266.56159375,"end":10266.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10271.894093750001,"end":10272.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10272.94034375,"end":10273.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10274.18909375,"end":10275.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10276.652843750002,"end":10277.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10277.68221875,"end":10278.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10277.73284375,"end":10278.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10279.30221875,"end":10282.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10280.196593750003,"end":10281.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10283.723468750002,"end":10283.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10283.74034375,"end":10284.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10284.499718750001,"end":10285.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10286.47409375,"end":10287.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10287.891593750002,"end":10288.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10292.24534375,"end":10293.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10294.320968750002,"end":10294.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10294.624718750001,"end":10296.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10294.641593750002,"end":10294.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10296.97034375,"end":10298.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10298.894093750001,"end":10299.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10299.434093750002,"end":10300.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10300.125968750002,"end":10300.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10301.965343750002,"end":10304.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10306.11659375,"end":10307.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10306.67346875,"end":10309.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10308.968468750001,"end":10309.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10310.31846875,"end":10311.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10311.28034375,"end":10311.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10311.972218750001,"end":10312.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10312.191593750002,"end":10312.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10312.259093750003,"end":10312.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10312.292843750001,"end":10312.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10312.883468750002,"end":10316.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10314.68909375,"end":10314.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10314.90846875,"end":10315.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10316.984093750001,"end":10319.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10320.39284375,"end":10321.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10322.046593750001,"end":10330.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":10322.55284375,"end":10323.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10327.227218750002,"end":10327.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10330.66971875,"end":10330.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10331.327843750001,"end":10334.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10334.95596875,"end":10335.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10339.59659375,"end":10340.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10342.39784375,"end":10344.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10345.367843750002,"end":10346.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10346.92034375,"end":10349.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10346.954093750002,"end":10347.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10351.071593750003,"end":10351.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10352.03346875,"end":10357.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10358.46284375,"end":10362.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10362.175343750001,"end":10364.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10362.27659375,"end":10362.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10364.571593750003,"end":10364.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10364.976593750001,"end":10365.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10368.469718750002,"end":10373.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10373.97096875,"end":10377.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10380.484718750002,"end":10381.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10381.93596875,"end":10382.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10382.18909375,"end":10385.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10384.29846875,"end":10384.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10385.00721875,"end":10385.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10385.597843750002,"end":10385.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10385.715968750003,"end":10385.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10385.766593750002,"end":10385.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10386.070343750001,"end":10386.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10387.605968750002,"end":10388.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10388.297843750002,"end":10388.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10388.719718750002,"end":10388.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10389.816593750002,"end":10391.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10390.187843750002,"end":10390.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10391.01471875,"end":10391.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10391.38596875,"end":10392.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10394.49096875,"end":10398.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10396.80284375,"end":10400.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10398.422843750002,"end":10398.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10400.312843750002,"end":10400.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10400.32971875,"end":10402.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10403.586593750002,"end":10404.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10404.61596875,"end":10407.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10407.40034375,"end":10413.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10413.88034375,"end":10416.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10416.00659375,"end":10416.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10416.74909375,"end":10417.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10418.33534375,"end":10421.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10422.58784375,"end":10423.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10424.24159375,"end":10428.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10424.42721875,"end":10425.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10427.22846875,"end":10429.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10429.574093750001,"end":10430.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10430.468468750001,"end":10430.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10430.535968750002,"end":10432.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10433.99534375,"end":10435.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10435.71659375,"end":10435.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10435.83471875,"end":10436.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10437.184718750003,"end":10437.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10439.31096875,"end":10449.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10448.06909375,"end":10454.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10454.093468750001,"end":10458.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10455.359093750001,"end":10455.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10456.60784375,"end":10456.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10458.66659375,"end":10458.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10458.784718750001,"end":10460.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10461.02909375,"end":10461.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10462.159718750001,"end":10463.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10464.47159375,"end":10464.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10465.754093750002,"end":10468.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10469.46659375,"end":10471.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10471.05284375,"end":10473.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10473.921593750001,"end":10475.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10475.727218750002,"end":10477.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10477.90409375,"end":10480.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10479.794093750003,"end":10480.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10481.44784375,"end":10483.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10484.434718750003,"end":10484.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10486.51034375,"end":10487.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10487.539718750002,"end":10487.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10488.24846875,"end":10488.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10489.581593750001,"end":10490.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10490.273468750001,"end":10492.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10494.77909375,"end":10495.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10495.79159375,"end":10497.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10497.394718750002,"end":10500.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10501.309718750003,"end":10501.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10506.59159375,"end":10506.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10506.60846875,"end":10506.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10506.64221875,"end":10506.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10506.692843750003,"end":10506.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10506.895343750002,"end":10506.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10506.96284375,"end":10506.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10506.97971875,"end":10507.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10507.82346875,"end":10508.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10508.97096875,"end":10509.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10509.19034375,"end":10511.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10511.28284375,"end":10512.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10512.83534375,"end":10515.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10513.949093750001,"end":10516.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10516.446593750003,"end":10517.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10517.425343750001,"end":10517.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10517.50971875,"end":10518.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10518.437843750002,"end":10526.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10518.47159375,"end":10518.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10518.62346875,"end":10518.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10527.077843750001,"end":10532.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10529.84534375,"end":10529.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10529.91284375,"end":10531.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10531.043468750002,"end":10531.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10532.410343750002,"end":10532.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10532.882843750001,"end":10532.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10532.950343750003,"end":10533.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10533.034718750001,"end":10533.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10533.96284375,"end":10533.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10533.97971875,"end":10539.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10536.61221875,"end":10537.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10537.253468750001,"end":10537.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10540.999718750001,"end":10544.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10553.875343750002,"end":10556.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10556.01846875,"end":10556.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10557.469718750002,"end":10557.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10557.48659375,"end":10557.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10557.80721875,"end":10560.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10558.364093750002,"end":10560.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10560.96284375,"end":10561.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10561.03034375,"end":10562.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10562.12721875,"end":10562.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10562.886593750001,"end":10569.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10569.113468750002,"end":10571.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10571.914718750002,"end":10572.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10572.03284375,"end":10575.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10575.441593750002,"end":10575.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10576.15034375,"end":10577.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10578.63096875,"end":10582.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10582.394093750001,"end":10582.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10582.42784375,"end":10586.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10589.54909375,"end":10590.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10590.51096875,"end":10595.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10600.349093750003,"end":10601.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10601.294093750003,"end":10604.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10605.242843750002,"end":10607.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10608.449093750001,"end":10617.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10617.477218750002,"end":10618.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10622.97846875,"end":10628.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10629.019718750002,"end":10638.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10639.414718750002,"end":10639.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10639.515968750002,"end":10640.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10640.832218750002,"end":10644.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10641.102218750002,"end":10641.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10644.325343750003,"end":10652.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10654.78784375,"end":10654.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10654.804718750001,"end":10655.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10655.14221875,"end":10655.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10659.546593750001,"end":10660.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10664.00159375,"end":10665.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10665.030968750001,"end":10666.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10669.03034375,"end":10671.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10673.77221875,"end":10679.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10680.72471875,"end":10682.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10684.25159375,"end":10692.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10693.92096875,"end":10696.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10697.684093750002,"end":10698.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10698.578468750002,"end":10702.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10702.18971875,"end":10702.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10702.442843750003,"end":10703.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10703.97846875,"end":10704.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10704.45096875,"end":10704.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10704.46784375,"end":10704.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10704.72096875,"end":10705.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10705.04159375,"end":10714.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10705.530968750001,"end":10705.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_48","start":10705.969718750002,"end":10706.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10706.30721875,"end":10706.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10715.605343750001,"end":10715.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10715.723468750002,"end":10715.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_46","start":10716.31409375,"end":10717.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10719.11534375,"end":10720.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10720.60034375,"end":10724.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10724.54909375,"end":10726.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10728.177218750003,"end":10732.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10732.76721875,"end":10740.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10740.27659375,"end":10741.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10742.11596875,"end":10748.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10748.96721875,"end":10753.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10753.81034375,"end":10755.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10756.442843750003,"end":10760.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10760.712218750003,"end":10782.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10782.49784375,"end":10783.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10785.07971875,"end":10791.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10792.487843750001,"end":10793.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10793.770343750002,"end":10797.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10797.63471875,"end":10798.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10799.355968750002,"end":10805.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10805.59971875,"end":10808.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10809.98721875,"end":10822.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10822.49159375,"end":10823.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10824.246593750002,"end":10833.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10834.45596875,"end":10840.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10841.08784375,"end":10842.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10846.875968750002,"end":10857.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10858.671593750001,"end":10862.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10863.14346875,"end":10866.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10866.737843750001,"end":10867.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10868.712218750003,"end":10876.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10876.980968750002,"end":10885.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10886.44784375,"end":10888.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10888.844093750002,"end":10910.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10911.945968750002,"end":10919.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10920.46784375,"end":10927.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10928.500343750002,"end":10938.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10939.45221875,"end":10947.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10948.075343750003,"end":10962.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10963.81971875,"end":10971.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10971.480968750002,"end":10978.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10980.593468750001,"end":10984.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10985.132843750001,"end":10986.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10986.85409375,"end":10991.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10993.06409375,"end":11013.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11013.820343750001,"end":11017.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11017.92096875,"end":11018.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11019.55784375,"end":11019.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11022.274718750003,"end":11024.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11026.66221875,"end":11027.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11030.40846875,"end":11034.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11035.20096875,"end":11052.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11052.66659375,"end":11058.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11058.707843750002,"end":11066.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11067.297218750002,"end":11070.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11070.75659375,"end":11082.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11083.36221875,"end":11088.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11090.669093750003,"end":11102.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11103.055343750002,"end":11117.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11118.15846875,"end":11119.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11119.64346875,"end":11131.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11131.87784375,"end":11140.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11141.09159375,"end":11153.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11154.60846875,"end":11159.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11159.940968750001,"end":11170.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11171.331593750001,"end":11175.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11176.22534375,"end":11181.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11185.472843750002,"end":11187.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11190.67034375,"end":11197.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11197.926593750002,"end":11210.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11211.477218750002,"end":11212.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11213.046593750001,"end":11231.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11231.946593750003,"end":11236.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11236.300343750001,"end":11240.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11241.49784375,"end":11242.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11244.653468750003,"end":11247.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11248.41659375,"end":11249.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11251.21784375,"end":11257.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11259.419093750003,"end":11261.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11264.937218750001,"end":11282.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11285.625968750002,"end":11288.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11290.418468750002,"end":11291.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11291.565968750001,"end":11294.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11295.54846875,"end":11295.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11296.66221875,"end":11297.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11301.20159375,"end":11302.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11303.42909375,"end":11307.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11307.917843750001,"end":11323.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11326.581593750001,"end":11329.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11330.378468750001,"end":11332.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11332.656593750002,"end":11333.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11334.90096875,"end":11335.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11336.90909375,"end":11347.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11349.83534375,"end":11353.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11354.762843750003,"end":11357.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11357.88471875,"end":11358.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11359.31909375,"end":11363.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11363.723468750002,"end":11370.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11373.257843750001,"end":11374.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11376.008468750002,"end":11376.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11377.25721875,"end":11381.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11383.281593750002,"end":11384.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11384.46284375,"end":11405.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11405.20221875,"end":11408.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11409.15096875,"end":11409.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11410.973468750002,"end":11423.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11424.254093750002,"end":11429.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11429.60346875,"end":11431.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11433.24846875,"end":11433.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11434.68284375,"end":11440.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11440.67346875,"end":11442.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11443.12034375,"end":11444.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11446.27596875,"end":11456.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11456.519093750001,"end":11462.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11462.374718750001,"end":11467.53846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1938.851,"end":1960.136,"text":"現在繼續開會今日會議繼續審查中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案114至116年度因軍意詢答完畢現在進行預算提案之協商好"},{"start":2010.487,"end":2025.916,"text":"我們現在進行通案的討論那我們先請主計長 主計總署主計長來 那是不是先 主計長你先先坐到前面來"},{"start":2037.476,"end":2047.898,"text":"我們希望今天一切都很順利因為這個關係到我們民眾非常關心的普發U1所以希望今天都非常順利我們現在第一案通案這個是"},{"start":2065.979,"end":2072.324,"text":"經濟部 勞動部 衛福部剪裂普發現金的媒體宣傳費1350萬其他業務沒宣費30%委員有沒有意見這是統三"},{"start":2093.7,"end":2096.302,"text":"補發現金的沒宣費1350萬其他的業務沒宣費30%有現場最新的溝通後的版本嗎"},{"start":2138.405,"end":2146.512,"text":"有第一案第一案好來那個"},{"start":2149.363,"end":2160.722,"text":"本案我們建勤聯席委員會的委員這裡面因為我看提案委員已經同意這樣的一個溝通後的修正內容建勤主席是不是我們這個案子就照修正後的內容通過"},{"start":2163.732,"end":2176.799,"text":"他這裡是寫他本來是要刪除1350萬嘛那現在改了之後就變成請於三個月內提出媒體廣宣規劃之書面包到就這個這是有確定的嗎來來來 事保委員"},{"start":2190.182,"end":2212.746,"text":"我們第一案 我們第一案是不是把它改成這一個三個月內提梅宣規劃的書面報告梅宣要刪一點啦 不行啦梅宣一定要刪啦這個我們國務署的啊對 我知道那個案子拿過來梅宣不能夠統刪 梅宣不能統刪好不好這統刪沒有啦 這是統刪的啦這是統刪的啦 統刪的不要啦 個案再來刪啦"},{"start":2220.42,"end":2238.872,"text":"好不好這是統三啦百分之三十的統三不是 這個1350這樣好不好就尾巴不要了350啦不要那個你的還沒到啦我說不一樣的不一樣的不一樣的這個你的在這裡啦"},{"start":2245.51,"end":2262.394,"text":"報告委員這個案子這個不是財政部的這個不是財政部的對對對不是他就說除了普發這個之外不刪那其他的業務對除了普發不刪之外對沒有同意他沒有同意沒有同意那怎麼處理"},{"start":2263.034,"end":2283.779,"text":"對啊 我覺得因為這個是攸關普發現金一萬塊的啦我們還是希望說能夠讓大家知道說怎麼樣去領這現金啦普發現金沒有問題啦 但是你用沒券的就奇怪了啦我們不要同案刪除啦要同案啦 為什麼不要同案"},{"start":2289.643,"end":2309.634,"text":"是吧 委員 我們這個同案先不要我們個案的話 個案再處理這個要尊重提案委員譬如說你的財政部 我們再來討論財政部的跟委員報告 這一個提案的內容就是財政部委員要刪了那是後面"},{"start":2316.286,"end":2344.064,"text":"是 然後單位名稱裡面沒有財政部啊沒有 這個這個不行 這個要尊重天安委員沒有 這個是你們這是你們家的那個文字我們等一下要發言的委員沒有 我們不會首長 我們都拿麥克風這個不是土生的問題這是每一個部位的每一圈都要刪啦"},{"start":2345.285,"end":2374.424,"text":"我知道啦我知道啦我知道啦那所以我們我們這個統三這個是不是改成書面報告不要啦不要啦這個還是要三啦小三一點可以啦小三一點啦好了三百分之十啦就百分之十啦好不好五趴啦五趴啦五趴啦五趴啦好不好樓委員五趴好不好五趴啦十趴嘿嘿嘿"},{"start":2377.309,"end":2390.401,"text":"這個普發獻金還是好事情啊這個普發獻金沒有刪啦普發獻金沒有刪啦 不要亂講除了普發獻金以外經濟部 勞動部 衛福部的文宣費用刪一層而已啦一層而已啦 文宣費一點點而已啦"},{"start":2403.431,"end":2409.694,"text":"後面是勞動部跟各位報告媒體宣導費對我們這一次對等關稅所影響的勞工非常重要大聲一點 靠近一點"},{"start":2425.681,"end":2448.306,"text":"這一次的媒體宣導費對我們來講非常的重要我們編了四千萬看起來大家覺得很多其實它是兩年三個月全部要用的錢這中間包括我們穩定勞工就業還有未來如果碰到失業的時候對失業勞工的部分勞動部的洪部長其實這段時間一直在下鄉所有的"},{"start":2448.966,"end":2466.816,"text":"所有的勞工朋友 工會朋友跟企業主都告訴我們說我們既有的宣傳管道雖然很努力但是其實沒有辦法接觸到各行各業所有的勞工朋友那委員會好啦 不要講了 不要講了來來來 經濟部公布長不要講了 不要講了來來來 公布長給他告解啦後面來給他告解啦不要講好不好 這個我就這樣決定了好不好就接近你們講的喔這個後面的41萬4千去掉啦 就這樣子啦"},{"start":2481.44,"end":2496.329,"text":"不過我也跟委員報告一下41萬4千取掉啦刪掉零頭就對了啦刪掉後面零頭就對了對不對"},{"start":2504.335,"end":2512.545,"text":"主席他現在就後面四百幾萬刪掉對不對四十一萬啊 四十一萬主席 主席那個點不一樣"},{"start":2519.019,"end":2534.849,"text":"黃珊珊委員因為今天現場人數比較多那我們希望說維持現場的秩序那我們要請發言的委員還有相關的部會的官員拿麥克風來講話然後其他的我們請"},{"start":2536.85,"end":2546.796,"text":"這個還沒有輪到你們的是不是先推到旁邊去然後音量也盡量小聲一點因為剛開始而已我們希望維持整個氣氛比較平緩一點主席 剛才我看錯了400多萬不是41萬"},{"start":2553.661,"end":2555.242,"text":"主席 我們不要說我不好 我們在這裡都聽不清楚啊"},{"start":2582.423,"end":2595.85,"text":"這個現場我們也保持安靜那我現在來宣告我們第一案經濟部簡烈經濟部勞動部衛福部媒體政策企業務宣傳宣導經費各5%有沒有意見5%"},{"start":2605.831,"end":2633.306,"text":"好 那第一案好 那我們再請這個經濟部 勞動部 衛福部把這一個簡略的金額調整之後然後送給我們好第二案主決議有沒有意見經濟部有沒有意見"},{"start":2636.499,"end":2661.57,"text":"沒有意見好 然後第三案第二案國發會可不可以調整一下文字第二案來 第二案有修正文字嗎是 那倒數第二行這個案子納入國土永續發展綱要年度檢討機制我們建議把國土永續發展綱要改為亞灣2.0因為這才有這個計畫好 OK然後在場委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2665.697,"end":2694.127,"text":"沒有好 那我們就按主決議通過修正後的主決議通過來 第三案主決議大家有沒有意見沒有好 那我們就按主決議通過召喚通過來 第四案 主決議沒有有沒有意見好 徵召辦理按主決議召喚通過第五案 主決議有沒有意見"},{"start":2695.618,"end":2722.964,"text":"好 那我們就按遵照辦理我們按主決議 召喚通過來 第六案主決議有沒有意見遵照辦理好 遵照辦理羅委員沒有意見了第六案了 現在第六案了第四案我有意見第四案他們說沒意見了啦所以 大家要小聲一點不然我也會聽不到委員的聲音"},{"start":2724.884,"end":2739.313,"text":"我先表達我的意見來第幾案那個第二案主決議那針對第二點我覺得可以拿掉因為不用把價值判斷放進去反正只要公開說明就好了行政院沒有差別對整個決議是沒差別的"},{"start":2742.985,"end":2767.892,"text":"哪一個這個第四案就是那個三點嘛針對美國1962貿易擴張法點點點然後第二個是美國商務部長魯特尼克接受專訪之談話照部分人士曲解為點點點第三段是行政院應責成相關部會資訊強化我覺得一三就夠了對"},{"start":2771.613,"end":2796.48,"text":"不用先定論說是不是曲解基本上行政院說明就好了這個我們要不要尊重提案的委員啊王委員在這邊那個賴榮立委說這樣不要拿掉因為有溝通過好不好好 那盧委員我們就尊重我們來尊重那一個提案的委員好了好不好"},{"start":2799.178,"end":2807.234,"text":"那就先保留好了 可以嗎啊 這一案要保留喔這個是主決議捏主決議怎麼保留主席"},{"start":2809.361,"end":2836.301,"text":"就修一下嘛 那就說 主席不然這樣子喔 主席不然讓他們解說一下入圍有什麼 大家都可以不要講曲解啦 招部分人是解讀為這樣就好啦 動心一點志強不要用曲解 用修 對 把第二對 第二 曲解改稍微修一下就好了解讀就好啦那 汪委員你 有沒有意見美惠 這小修啦 打一個字而已啦解讀而已 曲解改解讀而已啦 對"},{"start":2837.486,"end":2847.732,"text":"好啦 因為北河海我們都讓最尊重可以啦 台灣鼓勵還要順序我們解讀啦有沒有意見好啦 謝謝美惠啦 謝謝好 沒有意見 好"},{"start":2855.267,"end":2879.639,"text":"好 那這個第四案我們把這一個主決議這個取解改成解讀啦 照部分人是解讀為美國意圖好不好 這樣可以嗎好 那修正通過好 那我們現在接下去這個還是請大家稍微肅靜一下我們讓這個委員還有官員這個講話聲音大家能夠聽到好"},{"start":2887.217,"end":2910.623,"text":"好好好我維持一下現場的秩序大家安靜這樣子聲音大家才聽得到來第七案主決議遵照辦理遵照辦理好那我們召喚通過來第八案主決議內政部來內政部來來來遵照辦理好來來"},{"start":2917.864,"end":2933.903,"text":"好 這樣子聲音才聽得到啦第八案有 第八案召喚通過第八案沒有疑點召喚辦理好 第九案主決議是不是可以"},{"start":2935.635,"end":2964.363,"text":"第9案我們有修正意見有修正意見那有經過提案委員同意嗎沒有說明就是沒有收到委員的回覆就是我們有跟委員提出我們要這樣修但是委員目前是還沒有回覆我們那市保委員好啦 可以啦 就這樣 可以啦好 那我們第9案修正通過"},{"start":2966.172,"end":2993.813,"text":"好 謝謝第十案跟委員報告第十案是徐新聞委員希望業務費 宣導費可以用在比較有效率度絕讓費的地方因為宣導費剛才在第一案已經通案三五趴所以我們是不是併第一案我們就是併第一案處理併第一案我們第十案就併第一案來處理好 第十一"},{"start":2999.42,"end":3026.804,"text":"主席第十案有修啊我們併地案我們併地案好來那第十一案第十一案農業部的遵照辦理遵照辦理那照案通過第十一案照案通過第十二案主決議第十二案也是遵照辦理農業部遵照辦理好那我們照案通過第十三案"},{"start":3028.277,"end":3054.915,"text":"有文字修正主席他們有來溝通好了主席十三案有來溝通好了十三案好 王委員有簽名了那就按照文字修正好 再來"},{"start":3056.147,"end":3082.267,"text":"修正通過那因為我們現在通案的部分我們已經處理完了那如果沒有案子的話我們相關部會我們就留一個人留在現場那其餘的我們的這個相關的官員就可以先回去工作崗位上那也保持這個現場比較安靜一點好那十四案十三案我們修正通過"},{"start":3086.518,"end":3110.214,"text":"來 十四案主席來 王委員那個十四案嘛 修正因為有來溝通啊有同意齁同意沒有問題好 那十四案我們就修正通過謝謝來 第十五案內政部主決議遭案通過我們遭案通過好"},{"start":3112.625,"end":3132.485,"text":"第十六案内政部主决议内政部这边报告这里面可能要主决议文字有一些修正因为第一个无人机的采购跟反制设备不是只有保二还有保六跟行警局所以建议删除保二总队这几个文字"},{"start":3133.907,"end":3153.484,"text":"另外就是規格性能還有來源廠商跟國外廠商比例的部分因為涉及政府採購法的一個相關規定正式採購程序之前不宜事先再提供那我們後續會依照好不好好那我們第16案那個修正通過謝謝謝謝委員第17案來內政部"},{"start":3159.464,"end":3187.732,"text":"文字修正文字修正就是就是于一个月内好我们向那个内政委员会提出书面报告林委员有同意了吗好那我们修正通过谢谢委员来第18案内政部主决议我们照案通过真照办理好照案通过来第19案内政部主决议我们建议是不是可以修正三个月内我们来做讨论"},{"start":3188.908,"end":3216.738,"text":"那有跟徐委員有溝通過了嗎因為徐委員這兩天都在外面跑所以我們是想說這是過去他也在內委會有待過他自己大概都知道那個三個月太長啦 兩個月啦 改兩個月啦兩個月可以啦好 兩個月可以啊好那第十九案每兩個月固定更新修正通過好來 第二十案內政部主決議我們也是建議是文字修正就是改三個月速報"},{"start":3219.099,"end":3226.343,"text":"一個月改三個月那個20號就兩個月啦 一樣兩個月啦那我們改成兩個月書報 兩個月書報兩個月的書面報告那我們修正後通過來 第21案"},{"start":3243.257,"end":3265.51,"text":"第21案因為涉及到一些相關的資訊我們建議是做一些文字的修正那有跟劉委員溝通過了嗎有在溝通中報告委員這幾天都有跟劉委員做溝通但是一直LNG不到我們會持續溝通"},{"start":3273.049,"end":3285.015,"text":"21案我們修正通過第22案已經改組決議了已經跟委員溝通過他同意改組決議第22案我們改組決議"},{"start":3290.856,"end":3306.8,"text":"是來第23案23案跟蘇委員有溝通過他從5000萬降到1000萬那改三個月書報他也同意好那我們就是凍結1000萬然後改三個月書報我們凍結1000萬然後改書面報告三個月三個月念書面報告好好好"},{"start":3321.304,"end":3343.952,"text":"我們第二十三案我們改動結一千萬然後三個月內向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告是好 那修正通過第二十四案主決議 遵照辦理遵照辦理好 那我們召案通過是第二十五案主決議遵照辦理召案通過第二十六案遵照辦理"},{"start":3344.918,"end":3354.01,"text":"我們召喚通過第27案跟賴委員跟賴委員報告啦這個7億多給你給你撿個300萬給你尿滴 你跟你說300萬而已啦我簡單說明我簡單說明一下不要說明"},{"start":3360.639,"end":3374.878,"text":"我説明一下1500里面有1300是給建築師公會他們做各縣市政府的顧問團所以跟你報告剩下200萬是他們的開會出席費我們屬沒有拿任何自己要用的業務費所以才跟我們報告真實狀況是這樣啦"},{"start":3376.38,"end":3400.547,"text":"沒有 你這七千五百七億五千多所以是介意是說是不是調科目啦不一定要放在我跟你們報我們沒有要用這個我給你三百萬科目自行調整好 感恩 感恩 感恩謝謝好 我們第27案我們三百萬強化國土防衛能量我們簡列三百萬然後科目自行調整是 謝謝好 第28案"},{"start":3406.377,"end":3416.624,"text":"有修正嗎改組決議跟委員溝通過了那我們修正通過謝謝第29案改成組決議跟委員溝通過了那我們修正通過第30案"},{"start":3430.396,"end":3459.262,"text":"第32案也是改組決議也跟委員溝通過了好那我們修正通過謝謝第31案組決議我們遵照辦理好 照案通過謝謝32案文字修正好那我們就文字修正後通過我們32案我們已經跟眾委員討論過好 謝謝好 那文字修正後通過也是文字 謝謝"},{"start":3460.694,"end":3472.999,"text":"好 那內政部我們結束了那我們現在請國防部來 國防部趕緊就位 國防部"},{"start":3482.034,"end":3498.364,"text":"來到目前為止都還蠻平順的希望接下去就一切順利來我們部長就定位了來我們相關的我們官員也都就定位現在從國防部的第34案開始"},{"start":3507.769,"end":3533.9,"text":"來 第三十四案國防部所屬強化國土防衛能量凍結五千萬報告主席這個案子委員已經同意改列為主決議好 書委員有同意了嗎有早上有說明了有確認了嗎我們現在正在完備相關程序當中主席 大家不要跟我們開沒聽到聲音"},{"start":3545.628,"end":3562.982,"text":"改列主決議第三十四案我們改組決議修正後通過第三十五案委員已經同意改列為主決議也都溝通過了改列為主決議修正通過第三十六案"},{"start":3563.667,"end":3588.886,"text":"委員同意改列主決議好 那我們改列為主決議修正後通過36案好 那第37案剛剛委員已經同意改列主決議主決議的內容我們現在正在擬定待會兒委員簽署之後會送到委員會這邊剛剛委員有同意這個改列主決議那內容我們還想製作再補就好了剛剛同意了所以我們現在正在擬相關的主決議的內容等一下補資料"},{"start":3590.407,"end":3602.149,"text":"我們等下補資料好 那我們37案我們就改組決議然後資料要趕快送過來來 第38案檢列38億兩項 三檢戰備飲用水7億軍車集用廠整修31億合計3減38億"},{"start":3620.148,"end":3635.1,"text":"這我要解釋一下這主要是那個部長你們講一下這個重複編列你們年度預算都有了啊那請部長來還是我們次長說說名向委員報告我們每一年"},{"start":3636.124,"end":3659.659,"text":"我們每一年都會有所謂的這個戰備飲用水的問題那逐年會推成它的保存期限就是一年那考量每一年第一個都要做開標第二個有交通運輸包含高山站台以及外離島等地區所以我們建議現在採用這個五到七年的長效飲用水第一個避免人力第二個避免每一年的交通運輸開標作業那希望可以"},{"start":3661.179,"end":3673.147,"text":"讓單位有足夠的飲用水它可以不用每一年去推成也造成環保的問題至於5到7年期限到之前會比照現在一年期的我們每一年在屆期之前我們會做推成以上"},{"start":3677.632,"end":3697.721,"text":"我想補充一下第一個並沒有重複編列就這一個部分我們以5到7年的長效期的飲用水我們是參考日本、美國及挪威等國家長效期的飲用水的做法來增加我們的戰備的韌性就這部分"},{"start":3700.923,"end":3706.963,"text":"平時這個用這個一年期的校期的飲用水是不同的所以並沒有重複變略的問題"},{"start":3708.732,"end":3734.863,"text":"這個我替文委員講一下啦他說這個屬於這個作業的維持跟修繕應該回歸到年度預算不需要放在特別預算裡面他強調的是這一點不是說這個變得不好而是說這個應該回歸到年度預算在這個地方的話失去正當性這樣子啦 那個部長我講一個快的喔這個因為他現在不在我替他處理"},{"start":3735.871,"end":3756.509,"text":"你們可以讓我們刪多少一千一千多億三十幾億也就就就才還不到一百一百十幾億啊讓我講好不好一千一百多億裡面如果一趴就十一億了啊也只不過三趴二一了你可以讓我們刪多少嗎這樣子"},{"start":3761.718,"end":3789.539,"text":"好 來 那還有沒有其他委員有意見來 王委員賴委員也許我們到最後對於這些項目到黨團協商的時候可以適度地用百分比來思考讓軍方用在最需要的地方那我們現在是在逐項審查可能還沒到那裡那這一個項目呢有關這個飲用水長效期的其實跟我們的題目有關係叫做任性因為飲用的水機閒很多人"},{"start":3791.1,"end":3817.163,"text":"當年我們在平地很方便可是離外島像樂山雷達站那個車開上去要四個小時到其他的離島東沙什麼所以他用長效期的比較符合防衛韌性也避免說在遇到衝突的時候飲用水取得的不容易所以這個預算是放在韌性裡面是對的但是我也附帶一點希望國防部如果這個水跟一般的水喝起來都一樣沒白黑"},{"start":3818.004,"end":3846.683,"text":"未來我們每年年度採購的水其實應該也往這方面去採購而不是說我在防衛任性的時候買這個七年效期的比照美軍但我們在平常的飲用水就像我們一般喝的水一段時間就過期我們也許可以往這邊來改但前提是這個對健康對各方面是沒有什麼影響所以我個人是支持這筆預算那因為說可以砍多少這個是統三的概念但這個項目我是認為任性所需要的飲用水"},{"start":3848.124,"end":3850.606,"text":"如果軍方評估的數量沒有問題應該足而供應 以上馬委員"},{"start":3855.125,"end":3883.584,"text":"我的是下一岸不過主要的也是水的部分因為在這一次因為我過去我們大概都是用國內的水國內我們台灣其實我們的水資源沒有太大的問題那我們的保存期限大概一到兩年現在剛剛說我們是參考日本跟美國美國是公式作戰比如說他到其他國家去作戰的時候他可能沒有這樣子充足的水源"},{"start":3884.204,"end":3909.663,"text":"可是在台湾我们的便利商店是全球密度最高的这是第一点第二个我们有水库水井还有我们的治水工厂其实也都非常的多如果我们让我们的国军官兵我们都饮用比较生鲜而且是健康而且是我们常态大家平常都在喝的水这是第一个原则第二个刚刚有提到"},{"start":3911.544,"end":3935.422,"text":"離島還有高山站台這個只是佔很小的部分如果你們覺得這個是不方便離島我們贊成然後你在高山站台如果有比較不方便因為其實你高山站台還是都有很多其他的食物什麼都要做運送所以如果你要把這個拿來當作理由那也沒關係可是不要以小包大你現在用五年"},{"start":3936.082,"end":3953.662,"text":"跟我們現在買的水我們算了一下我們現在買的水平常我們也有戰備的這個儲水啊我們一瓶500cc的現在是8塊錢可是你現在要買的這個5年以上的效期是要120塊"},{"start":3955.504,"end":3984.664,"text":"它的價差非常的高那你台灣我們是守勢作戰你是在家裡打仗所以你為什麼要去買這樣子的水這是我們覺得比較不可思議的這些我們的所有的水資源的來源如果是不足的你這樣編我們覺得合理所以如果像這樣子你8塊錢跟120塊你如果量非常的大你編到8億等於是我們現在的超過10倍以上"},{"start":3985.924,"end":4001.678,"text":"所以我覺得這是不合理的這不應該編你如果有戰備儲水的需求我們務實的我覺得你可以在預算裡面去呈現出來這個部分我們並不贊成好 那我們先請賴委員賴委員之後我們就請王委員"},{"start":4005.865,"end":4035.203,"text":"這樣子喔 這個等一下因為38案裡面有一部分是39案一樣的我是請顧部長你要不要因為這個東西水這個在我們的平常的日用的水為什麼要一直買要存這麼久這水的這個quality品質都有問題啊你這個老師講這樣子讓我們會議比較容易順利進行啦你自己看一下這一部分可以減淚多少啦 這樣快點啦好 那沒關係 那王委員"},{"start":4042.412,"end":4064.759,"text":"主席 因為今天 現在是在討論軍營要不要用啦跟你說便利商店多方便的時候軍營的軍營可以隨時走路的時候去便利商店買東西嘛他不是要買到種土土跟本土每一個軍營的嘛"},{"start":4066.69,"end":4083.945,"text":"這個方便便利商店的方便是給貝斯的方便軍營是不一樣的以上 我覺得應該替軍營想出更好的辦法不是要發洩軍營叫軍營做事 再發洩他們的東西以上好 那郭委員有沒有要發言"},{"start":4092.816,"end":4121.291,"text":"我想我們的官兵應該是長期駐守在這個第一線那我覺得他們是保家衛國之外同時他們的環境或者是他們的一個生活的條件其實我們也要顧慮到他們的飲用水的部分那這個不是剛剛像馬委員所說的好像這個隨時要隨時要就隨時補充真的就把它當7-11是一樣的一個道理這個是毫無道理可言所以刪了國防備用水的"},{"start":4122.053,"end":4128.849,"text":"這個預算我個人是堅決反對好 以上好 那馬委員還要再補充嗎還是就這樣好 再補充"},{"start":4130.334,"end":4151.293,"text":"我想補充一下我等一下也可能請軍方再特別回應一下因為這樣沒有辦法通過這樣的預算剛剛提到的這是戰備儲存的所以如果在戰爭或特殊狀況發生的時候甚至你徵用或者其他的其實大家都會公佑這是另外一個"},{"start":4152.794,"end":4168.162,"text":"我們對於戰備的存量我們沒有意見然後我們現在只是說你為什麼在我們的水資源充足的情況之下而且有比較新鮮的因為你畢竟儲存那麼久美國甚至有50年的"},{"start":4169.463,"end":4175.905,"text":"他是要對抗核生化的他的特別儲存的水還是有他的考量他甚至可以50年所以我們現在要說的是你如果讓我們的國軍官兵他都是喝我們一點剝削都沒有"},{"start":4191.431,"end":4207.222,"text":"它跟我們喝的是一樣的水我們現在要說的是這個部分今天如果你在其他的地方需要比較長的時間那個我們也沒有意見可是我覺得你現在編這一筆預算而且還特別這個在台灣沒有一家廠商可以做"},{"start":4208.143,"end":4230.701,"text":"只有日本或者少数国家有做为什么我们是去买其他国家这样的水资源来作为我们的战备储水这个也是一个很大的问题我们目前国家我们的水资源没有缺你要推成我们很多东西你的食物也是要吃啊你每年在使用上面这些水你要推成也没有问题啊"},{"start":4231.181,"end":4252.188,"text":"所以在這裡我們要特別強調如果你因為有編這樣的預算然後要去買特殊的規格我覺得這個應該要說明清楚為什麼要去買這個然後再到王委員王委員還要再發言王委員發言之後我們就請部長做個補充還有王委員之後郭委員那請部長做個補充說明就大概我要按個結論等一下 王委員"},{"start":4253.809,"end":4272.05,"text":"因為其實大家是很平和理性的在討論但是因為旁邊比較吵雜變成委員講話好像變得很大聲所以是不是請還沒有輪到協商的官員你們講話就保持安靜那如果有事情要討論呢就到外面去討論不然外面 你們這邊比較吵"},{"start":4272.931,"end":4295.089,"text":"變成我們這邊講話要很大聲其實我們講話沒有很大聲大聲也不代表吵架沒關係 聽得清楚比較重要第一個 因為案子很多如果真的有不同的意見我覺得互相都可以尊重保留是一個方式第二個 水在暫時是必要物資台灣平時水資源豐沛"},{"start":4296.377,"end":4314.273,"text":"可是在暫時的時候它可能會被汙染它可能會汙損它可能會取得不易離外島偏鄉甚至於在某些據點水是維持戰力最重要的東西第二我們不能去預測什麼時候會發生衝突我們希望永遠都不會發生衝突"},{"start":4314.833,"end":4333.209,"text":"所以平時的水當然要儲備夠但是如果要提高防衛的韌性長效的水能夠保存年限到一定的年限這對據點的守軍來講是一個保障所以這個水是必要的第三 這個水看如果真的是國內沒辦法"},{"start":4335.391,"end":4349.668,"text":"趕快引進技術在國內已經有嘛所以待會部長可以一併說明就是說這不是一定要跟國外買如果可以在國內讓我們的水可以成為長效水那不只是我們軍方可以用像我們自己家裡準備了救難包"},{"start":4350.589,"end":4368.203,"text":"那我們常常放水放到長青苔那這個水可以放在家裡五年 七年可以用所以待會軍方一併說明這個水的技術如果國外已經引進國內我們可以在國內採購那這三個因素都考量在內我相信賴委員或馬委員其實都是希望軍方好"},{"start":4368.823,"end":4389.295,"text":"那在提高防衛的韌性水的資源的必要性在戰備儲存上的需要把現在的校期一年多把它展延到五到七年那這樣的預算如果涵蓋技術的引進國內來生產的話那我覺得這個投資對台灣是一個好的方向所以很多據點不像住在城市裡面的感受"},{"start":4389.775,"end":4411.976,"text":"很多據點的水你平常還可以靠水車啦採購那到衝突的時候那個運補其實會是一個問題所以我們希望部分黨派這一個預算其實是有必要的可以給予支持謝謝好 那都已經雙方都已經那郭委員那最後 郭委員講完之後我們請部長來做最後的說明我就要做一個處理了"},{"start":4415.994,"end":4432.042,"text":"謝謝主席我覺得剛剛那個馬文君委員講的不是沒有道理但是停留在一個平時的思維來思考這項採購的必要性與否那王委員剛剛提到其實是從一個暫時的思維既然是國防的需求他從任性的出發應該是從暫時的思維來做出發會比較妥當一點這是第一點"},{"start":4437.825,"end":4450.118,"text":"那第二點他強調到跟其他國家採購的這個部分是否妥當依照目前為止台灣呢如果沒有這樣技術你也不得不向國外來進行採購但是是不是能夠將這一項技術呢將來能夠國產化這恐怕是未來"},{"start":4454.242,"end":4479.46,"text":"喂 這已經國產化了他剛剛是強調這是國外的如果有國產化的話那當然是最好第三個部分我想提醒一下國防部一般的瓶裝水一年的塑膠為例大概有九萬個如果是我們瓶裝的部分是用塑膠的話如果常態性的飲用水是用五到七年的話恐怕這健康的問題也要特別要注意一下這以上提醒好 謝謝 請部長"},{"start":4481.478,"end":4502.034,"text":"我首先說明第一個就是因為國軍是採守勢作戰所以我們必須要考量到民生供水的設施在這個戰時的時間會因為相關的人為因素會遭到破壞所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們必須要加強我們的作戰熱心因為沒有水是沒有辦法進行作戰"},{"start":4503.075,"end":4518.038,"text":"這是第一點就更是因為我們是首次作戰所以對於這樣子的一種長期的一種這個戰力的一個持續我想我們要考慮到這第一個第二點我們不能夠"},{"start":4519.059,"end":4533.055,"text":"我們不是只有單看美國我們看挪威挪威水資源也相當的這個充沛那我想他也不是在公司作戰但是挪威也是採取這樣子的一個長效期的一個飲用水的一個戰備的一個存量來做規範來進行採購那這第三"},{"start":4538.001,"end":4553.532,"text":"所以我們參考這些我們認為推這個五至七年以上的效期是可以增加韌性第三點這些部分我們已經查訪過相關的國內的產量所以我昨天事上已經說明了我們是依照國內的一個產能來進行這樣的一個相關的設計的所以這些部分我們都已經有做過評估了"},{"start":4564.5,"end":4591.075,"text":"那我想如果說沒有辦法能夠取得一個共識我是建議我們還是保留是不是到黨團協商最後做一併的處理是不是好 那個雙方都已經做過充分的說明了那第38案我們就保留做協商好 第39案同樣性質那我們也保留協商好那第42"},{"start":4593.772,"end":4611.689,"text":"第40案入軍是就馬委員提案就這個後備部隊他11個旅要徵購的貨櫃那我們這邊說明最主要就是在115年的預算書表所編列的是"},{"start":4612.679,"end":4627.193,"text":"步兵旅它是採購它是放置一般經理裝備那在特別預算裡面我們是考量到整個後備戰力的提升還有兵力結構的調整那我們也滿足了它的戰鬥個裝所以這個新的採購的在特別預算採購的貨櫃是用來滿足它的戰鬥個裝還有它"},{"start":4633.459,"end":4659.857,"text":"未來因應到戰術位置還有它的教招演練所需其他包含到有戰板 廚師機也都是要整個配套做這整個的後備戰力的裝備儲存不要到了整個應急作戰之後再去到處調介裝備這是一個在平時就思考到可以快速發揮戰力的一個需求恳請委員支持好 那田安委員 馬委員"},{"start":4662.037,"end":4667.818,"text":"就這個部分因為剛剛的說明我是覺得還蠻牽強的因為在115年也就是明年的預算裡面我們國防部入軍後備動員服裝跟戰鬥個裝這一個部分它的庫儲設備已經編列預算在公開預算明年才要已經要編了你現在突然在"},{"start":4688.106,"end":4706.067,"text":"特別預算裡面又放入一樣的東西因為他買的就是貨櫃站板還有除濕機這是特別預算你拿來買這些東西真的就像預算中心裡面其實有特別提到我們國防預算在這麼倉促的情況之下明年我們已經有"},{"start":4707.268,"end":4712.07,"text":"增加非常多的國防預算可是你在這麼倉促的情況之下編出來的有些如果要用我們不是不支持可是你不應該放在這裡或者你不應該亂花因為他們在編的時候還有一個考量就是只有用兩年的時間去考慮所以有些明明很缺的"},{"start":4729.116,"end":4743.519,"text":"我們國軍的裝備或各方面明明需要去檢整的大家都沒有想要去改這個都是挑最簡單的而且重複編列在115年你的公開預算裡面已經有了你現在另外也是我們陸軍後備部隊要做的這些庫儲設施所以我們看不出來它哪裡不一樣這個部分我們認為它有重複編列而且你明年在公開預算是編一億三千萬"},{"start":4757.921,"end":4762.285,"text":"編一億三千萬你現在又突然在特別預算又說還要一千六百五十萬告訴我們哪裡沒有編你在明年的一億三千萬為什麼沒有把它編足而如果今天沒有特別預算的時候那就不需要嗎是這樣嗎所以這個部分我們還是要求"},{"start":4776.757,"end":4798.315,"text":"这个有重复的嫌疑所以我们希望这个部分应该要删除删减那刚刚因为我们一直在强调这是任性如果刚刚说那个我们的水一年的会被破坏会有损失那五年的不会吗一样的道理我们只是觉得太贵了"},{"start":4798.955,"end":4820.647,"text":"這個部分其實應該任性不是它時間長就叫任性它如果在第四年或第五年發生問題那你在第六年那你第六年怎麼喝所以我們希望大家是針對問題去討論這個部分除非你提出比較具體的一個數據資料才可以去使用這樣的特別預算好 那林委員"},{"start":4828.619,"end":4851.653,"text":"好 謝謝主席昨天其實我在會議詢答的時候有特別請教過國防部副部長我要特別強調的是我們現在所審查的就是國土防衛韌性那麼國土防衛韌性就是因應戰時隨時可能發生的事情那麼我也非常認同就是馬委員剛剛有一直提到的這個是因應戰爭發生的狀態我們是預防戰爭發生的狀態而我們"},{"start":4855.635,"end":4873.289,"text":"接下來在委員會當中確實都會審查115年度的這個所謂常備的預算那今天如果我們審查的是跟戰備相關的包括其實剛剛前面儲水的部分我想大家已經有冗長討論我本來不想要特別發言的"},{"start":4873.709,"end":4893.166,"text":"但是我要強調的就是現在我們應該要釐清的是現在討論的就是要避免戰爭時候發生的戰備的儲存的動能跟量能其實過去在許多的討論當中在野黨委員都一直在質疑說如果中共突然間"},{"start":4894.407,"end":4913.784,"text":"對台灣進行所謂的封鎖 封島我們到底有多少的戰備能量包括彈藥 包括水資源包括油料等等那麼現在不是就是在增加這個部分的能量嗎但是現在大家一直在那邊講說啊115年就可以邊進去那完全是不是邏輯錯亂這是我覺得我現在是必須要先發言來做澄清的"},{"start":4918.268,"end":4933.742,"text":"再來是剛剛提到的是水的部分當然你就是要多存啊不然你被封鎖的時候你要怎麼辦怎麼可能拿日常官兵的飲用水然後來喝這根本不可能嘛兩邊本來就是應該要分開來計算"},{"start":4935.143,"end":4957.026,"text":"另外是有關於我相信這些儲備的東西是不是可以請國防部或陸軍現在講一下你們在多增加了這些存量之後一定要多一個地方來存放嘛舉一個例子每一個人的家裡如果你要多這種所謂避難救難設備你看到以色列在每一個人的家裡都有地下室的時候"},{"start":4957.386,"end":4975.403,"text":"那你是不是每一個家裡的人家要多出去興建地下室然後去放這些戰備的儲糧這是民間的部分那麼當然軍中也會需要所以如果陸軍你們是放在這邊的預算就請你們好好的說清楚講明白因為我還是要強調就是戰備的狀況跟一般的狀況就是維護我想這兩個字"},{"start":4982.19,"end":5000.985,"text":"這兩個詞大家應該聽得非常清楚如果我們一直不斷的只是回到說啊115年有重複編115年有那大家根本就不用討論強化國防預算強化我們可能面對中共的封鎖或是外在攻擊的部分嗎好以上是我的發言好沒關係我們先讓委員先來請陳委員"},{"start":5004.195,"end":5024.993,"text":"我簡短的來去附印林楚英委員的說法強化我們的韌性不是只是我們過去講到國防的能量不是只是購買最新式的武器而已能夠確保我們的韌性增強包含剛才提到的特規型的瓶裝水就是水 蛋 油"},{"start":5027.195,"end":5040.524,"text":"還有昨天林委員有在質詢部長有提到的一些重要的資源的戰備所以我還是同意林楚瑩委員剛才的說法並且去附議她的說法好 我們請沈委員"},{"start":5042.68,"end":5065.022,"text":"因為我們接下來幾個案子我覺得針點都差不多啦那我覺得最主要的關鍵在於說特別預算它必須要是緊急啦那這個呢我覺得馬委員的緊急的定義跟我們的緊急的定義不太一樣所以呢如果我們每一個發言都一直針對緊不緊急的話我覺得這沒有溝通的結果但我覺得國防部至少先說明一點就是跟緊急無關的事情就是"},{"start":5065.683,"end":5085.903,"text":"他提到重複編列這件事說115年公務預算有重複編列當然第一個我們剛剛講的你暫時的緊急的儲備跟你平常的公務預算是應該要分開的這本來是兩件事情但是請國防部把這件事情再清楚說明過後那緊急的部分我覺得這個可能很難達成共識好 那請部長來做個回應"},{"start":5088.559,"end":5115.192,"text":"我首先再補充一下那個長期飲用水還是強調這叫戰備飲用水戰備飲用水的概念就是說我們平常不會用到它我們日常的飲用水的部分我們一年期的效期的部分就可以因應戰備飲用水假設你也是用一年期那你每年是不是要把它再換那這個就不符合戰備的概念戰備的概念就是說我平常不會用它那我可以放比較長效期的"},{"start":5117.744,"end":5138.731,"text":"我可以我可以放比較長效期的這才叫戰備的概念嘛所以叫戰備飲用水那這第一個第二個呢我們現在有關40案這個現在是因為我們認為這個貨櫃啊要在暫時配合籌購的這個拉臂的溝型的載重車將貨櫃直接拖引到動員的徵集地點"},{"start":5141.294,"end":5169.499,"text":"直接拖延到這種徵集點然後提升後備動員的效率跟能量那因為原來籌購的這一個貨櫃的這個部分呢還不足所以我們現在編列的這樣子的一個貨櫃的概念也就是讓他這個後備動員的徵集實施比較能夠具有機動性能夠提升後備動員效率那這一個部分呢也是希望委員能夠支持好這樣子啊因為"},{"start":5172.649,"end":5199.458,"text":"來 郭委員我echo一下剛剛其實我們幾位委員所講的我們講特別預算今天在講的是特別預算什麼叫特別預算就是在緊急跟特別任務之後緊急可以動用的一些資源這叫特別預算所以在提到什麼115年然後什麼重複編列我覺得115年重複編列的這樣子的一個字眼套用在今天這個特別預算其實是蠻錯誤的一個邏輯啦"},{"start":5201.198,"end":5214.088,"text":"更何況115年的預算當中難道你們不會刪嗎你們一樣照刪不誤嘛所以我們今天講的是特別預算這跟115年的這是完全兩種不同的概念啦以上"},{"start":5215.219,"end":5225.965,"text":"那毛委員還要再補充嗎其實這是原則問題我想也講一下因為後面的很多案子是一樣剛剛有很多委員顯然誤會所謂的戰備因為貨櫃它有分暫時用的貨櫃跟平常用的貨櫃嗎"},{"start":5233.129,"end":5239.455,"text":"我一直在強調明年115年他已經編了這些相關的預算你甚至裡面還有除濕機還有廁所廁所有分暫時跟平常用的嗎我們現在講的特別我們所以剛剛委員講到重點了所謂的特別預算你今天"},{"start":5252.746,"end":5267.284,"text":"國防部有很多我們的各軍種可能在很多武器裝備上面有很多消失性傷員的有很多損壞的有很多必須要做的我們支持他做可是你現在我們看到這一次編在1100多億裡面的特別預算的內容"},{"start":5272.25,"end":5298.503,"text":"它並不是戰備急需剛剛一直講到水水的部分不是時間長它就叫戰備因為我們也有糧食你這一次除了水以外還有編一個油油的部分你增加了12億可是你有做其他增加的庫儲設施嗎比如說你有一個可以來裝油的並沒有所以那12億你只是多付給裝油而已"},{"start":5299.523,"end":5324.059,"text":"你在暫時你還跟現在其實沒有差別我們現在本來也是這樣用所以等一下因為有說我們很多的案子大概都是類似的因為所謂的所謂的重複編列不要搖頭因為你可能沒有認真的去看或者理解我們的國防預算所謂公務預算裡面貨櫃其實他本來在明年就已經有買了他的站板在明年也有買了"},{"start":5325.04,"end":5330.532,"text":"廚師機這一類的東西根本就不應該放在這裡面所以這是我們要刪的原因"},{"start":5331.633,"end":5356.648,"text":"好 那雙方都已經有做春鳳的說明我先簡單做個處理因為我們國防部的整個提案有65個案子其中三檢有51案 凍結有6案 組決議有8案那因為這個國防部跟我們這個朝野的委員都各有意見那我想我們先稍微休息一下"},{"start":5357.688,"end":5384.89,"text":"來跟這一個國防部來跟我們的委員先做個協商不然這樣子下去接下來很難把今天能夠把案子送出去然後我們先休息部長加油大家加油國防加油保護台灣加油加油那個現在休息"},{"start":5387.159,"end":5407.585,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5411.41,"end":5414.873,"text":"今天是幾乎過場了"},{"start":5442.06,"end":5452.369,"text":"我們對部署可以說是有兩分"},{"start":5467.841,"end":5471.922,"text":"對,阿康納德就是緊張說實話,這個沒有問題。"},{"start":5497.099,"end":5513.635,"text":"主持人,您好。您好。您好。"},{"start":5521.367,"end":5533.614,"text":"細節的東西"},{"start":5538.184,"end":5565.486,"text":"看得到 只要你在國防衛校可以看得到那如果 萬一我們在這邊 照著那些防疫環境來說已經不會有自己在做任何事件這對我來說很大的傷害 讓我們出行實在是不正常我也不覺得 讓我們出行實在是不正常對對 公務員公務員就公務員因為我說嘛"},{"start":5568.073,"end":5569.056,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5574.512,"end":5593.002,"text":"您要如何去處理?您要如何去處理?您要如何去處理?您要如何去處理?您要如何去處理?您要如何去處理?"},{"start":5601.867,"end":5604.249,"text":"剛剛陳賴慧跟馬國賓溝通,那現在她的同路在哪裡?"},{"start":5628.114,"end":5641.279,"text":"因為它的中心帶我們也不怕擋住因為都完全一寸就擋不到的那什麼陸軍海軍那個那也就那一個原因那我們的一個原因因為我原諒你其實你的案子我沒有考慮過"},{"start":5642.399,"end":5670.61,"text":"兩個人的案子可以拼在一起處理因為你的處理方式就很簡單了AOE要很多時候對 用這種方式然後整包把它談妥的時候我們就知道他的局限那這樣的話 那些案子就不必再處理因為AOE的案子有幾個動作是要配合的那如果國安公司有幾個要配合的就有問題了對對對 要處理的要處理的"},{"start":5672.852,"end":5698.912,"text":"那你委員會是你委員會來嗎?你去做健康檢查我委員會要跟我們委員會砍掉的20萬那就是砍掉一半了不行那一半怎麼辦?"},{"start":5703.247,"end":5718.571,"text":"因為這個是歐小林要砍一半的他歐小林要砍一半的我那個人保留他沒有同意的是我同意的可是前面都只有3.5%為什麼我們發信心要砍一半前面剛剛"},{"start":5724.892,"end":5746.41,"text":"不要我怎麼違憲啊要啦我還先經你這個要把錢大概你看現在就這麼多詐騙網站在那邊了我們對不對那你不講清楚嗎大家都傻傻的上去我們出過的地方了都給人家騙光光了怎麼辦真的 真的啦那是一千三百萬美金啊是嗎好啊好啊那是125125可以嗎可以啊"},{"start":5754.82,"end":5754.98,"text":"謝謝委員,謝謝委員"},{"start":5798.258,"end":5803.383,"text":"你說保留?保留?保留啦,全部保留"},{"start":5830.982,"end":5836.75,"text":"市保的也很多總共八個案子而已,有很多,你也好,親自說你都自己人數耶"},{"start":5841.846,"end":5848.191,"text":"衛福是前面剛剛刪了5%同申所以砍160那現在病院一個案子總共砍500再砍340那340他大概有兩千多萬都是違反"},{"start":5859.153,"end":5880.588,"text":"要違給其他的法律這些東西就變成 報告委員對 它六十幾億可是它總共大部分是要發出去給各縣市政府發給這些人總共它五千九那前面它的總共業務費五千九自己用的總共三五百萬"},{"start":5883.11,"end":5895.602,"text":"三五百萬然後同時併信一案併通案啦 併通案的對 因為他的媒宣也併通案40到87然後因為夏蘭詩那個案子他沒有"},{"start":5906.51,"end":5935.692,"text":"然後華仁的案子是1989那個蘇欽 請問一下剛剛39保留要不要一起你也是那個嗎對 就38到40對 38 39應該也一起保留他要38 39本來就保留啦你等一下如果一起處理要不要一起處理不要喔喔 從來38到40不要喔38到40不要喔 從來38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38到40不要喔38"},{"start":5942.434,"end":5954.046,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":5962.065,"end":5972.729,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":5994.49,"end":6019.232,"text":"你的案子等一下還是繼續討論嗎?還是你要跟他一樣都保留?這個可以被討論在這裏嗎?他的案子就從不送出他查的案子有跟你有重疊的欸到八七啊那他們要換他多久?八八七所以他們都是這個政府的第一名"},{"start":6039.97,"end":6048.495,"text":"我讓他不要一個一個案問他一個討論 一個中本書文 一個委託他的案子就出發了"},{"start":6070.13,"end":6080.665,"text":"到87都是他的嗎對 到87都是他的還有91也是啊還有91嗎有兩個主決役兩個主決役啊到87都是三檢主決役是主決役41到"},{"start":6086.505,"end":6101.247,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會剛剛也做了一些協商跟討論我在這邊做個說明因為接下來馬文君委員的案子是從第40案"},{"start":6102.068,"end":6125.043,"text":"到第87案那都是屬於這個刪減的案子那因為這個案子量非常的多所以我是先麻煩我們馬委員你就做個這個統一的一個你的提案的說明那我們也請這一個部長這邊做一個統一的答覆好不好那我們是不是請馬委員從第40案到第87案謝謝"},{"start":6133.062,"end":6157.078,"text":"這裡面其實我們剛剛有提到非常多就是說主要是他在特別預算裡面他使用的老實說真的是有些已經浪費了比如說像海軍左支部旗艦的部分他這個圍牆重建圍牆他花了1000萬其實他現在當然是老舊可是"},{"start":6158.277,"end":6176.071,"text":"如果說要急著用特別預算來支應我覺得這個也是不合理的這也是我們提供的案子之一那另外我要強調的為什麼部長一直說我們沒有重複可是我們看這個金湯營區其中有一個營區它現在114跟115年編了3680萬左右3680萬它在做設計規劃設計規劃喔"},{"start":6188.061,"end":6216.433,"text":"可是在這一次的特別預算裡面他又把很多的又放了3500萬要執行一些項目你現在今年跟明年才在設計而已可是你今年居然又放了另外的東西要在同一個營區就像你今天要設計這個會議室可是你還在設計階段你突然又另外特別預算的錢"},{"start":6217.133,"end":6244.428,"text":"也要做這個會議室一樣的不合理你如果覺得需要你應該在我們這兩年的設計費裡面他的設計費高達3億7千萬他就應該把它放進去放了如果真的有需求你再把那個預算放進來這樣才符合我們預算的運用就這些部分另外就是我們我想要請教一下我們這一次買了很多的靶機"},{"start":6247.515,"end":6271.221,"text":"總共要買多少等一下可以給我們數字嗎這一次在特別預算裡面我們的靶機總共數量有多少大概是什麼樣的類型跟過去買的因為我們從111年 112年 113年 114年也就是今年還有明年的115年都有編列靶機的預算每年都有"},{"start":6271.861,"end":6282.503,"text":"高達兩億多所以你在這一次特別預算每一個營區都還有買這個我不知道為什麼那你以前買的呢它不足的數量它總共需要多少數量才夠也請提供給我們詳細的這些資訊跟數量那另外還有就是我們造了很多的鋼棚我們的鋼棚要做什麼用而且這個鋼棚的材質規格然後它"},{"start":6298.507,"end":6304.673,"text":"你說任性它可以抗照嗎因為它有一些有門有一些又沒有有一些說要防核生化所以到底它到底是做什麼使用它幾乎每一個很多地方很多的靶場很多的營區也都有這些項目我們希望這一次統整起來以後把相關的數量也可以提供然後它的用途規劃"},{"start":6323.451,"end":6333.098,"text":"也可以提供出來另外他還有很多可能是做無人機教室有點像電競的那也要花高達上億以上好幾億你還要做教室因為我們無人機的訓練現在我們都還沒有買你也不知道他要做什麼樣的訓練他應該要做什麼樣的一個規劃可是你現在錢都已經放進去所以要做"},{"start":6348.61,"end":6374.398,"text":"他的训练场我觉得这个也是本末倒置所以这些相关的部分我们请一并的把它说明清楚而且也提供具体的资料那我们是不是请国防部我们就同意做个答复就马委员刚才所不了解的地方各位委员大家好我是陆军司令部参谋长陈建义我们旁边再稍微安静一下好吗我就刚刚委员的指教我做几个通则性的"},{"start":6377.113,"end":6399.469,"text":"我覺得剛剛委員的指教做幾個回覆報告有關於在委員的提案裡面在有一些所謂重複投資的部分我做第一點的說明那金湯營區它在14 15年它是一個東山教練場連結到訓場它是屬於訓場那是整個未來因應兵力結構調整"},{"start":6400.97,"end":6417.416,"text":"後備部隊要在裡面輪訓還有結合戰術和實彈射擊的一個需要這一次在特別預算裡面最主要京湯營區就是部訓部的所謂的部校的校區它裡面有包含到正規班還有各軍事官班的培育"},{"start":6418.016,"end":6430.775,"text":"那它裡面的兵舍跟教育設施大概已經都長達將近40年那這期間當然有我們在整個維持門是佔的比例是大概只有1%到2%是不足以支應這個需求"},{"start":6433.999,"end":6448.677,"text":"那這些軍事官班的教育包括他的紙餐跟戰術的課程還有一些各兵科都要到部校去做一個兵科協同訓練的一個操演所以這兩個是不同的案"},{"start":6449.258,"end":6465.688,"text":"那在前述的是法定預算那這次是我們希望藉由特別預算來整修建部校的校區裡面的教學和網路還有這些兵棋室教室等等的設備第二個有關於委員所提自動化靶機"},{"start":6467.229,"end":6471.97,"text":"在預算書表裡面從111年到115年總共編列了2.3億有購置靶機以現在的市場行情一具靶機的價格大概要40到60萬全陸軍有90座靶場目前完成實戰化需求距離全面"},{"start":6489.074,"end":6506.885,"text":"要達到靶場自動化的需求還相差甚遠我們這一次所提的在特別預算裡面有六個靶場所列的自動化靶機除了京六節在一百一十一年曾經提列過自動化靶機之外其他沒有"},{"start":6507.885,"end":6523.976,"text":"建置過自動化靶機那經六節的自動化靶機它在110年建立的它是基本型它是沒有辦法隨著我們的設置要它升要它降它是一個很單兵的就是全線射擊的這種不符實戰需求它這一次"},{"start":6524.696,"end":6539.073,"text":"之所以在建制是性能提升這是自動化靶機的部分第三個有關於鋼棚因為我們這些鋼棚最主要是存放我們也是因應兵力結構未來有包含到剛剛部長所"},{"start":6540.835,"end":6554.323,"text":"所報告的我們有一些車輛輕重型的戰術輪車還有各式輪車為了能夠統一集中保養跟存放所以它在這個方面"},{"start":6556.064,"end":6579.119,"text":"那也依照聯氏的指導對於整個的鋼棚的規格結合到尾裝結合到限地都有統一的綠定那因為它只是一個經常性的存放到了戰時這些車子是在會疏散到戰術位置所以它沒有辦法提具抗炸功能如果它提具抗炸功能的話那那個價格又會更高"},{"start":6580.119,"end":6608.05,"text":"我們是不是就發言我們再簡單二要最後一點我報告無人機訓場的部分無人機訓場我們是參照我們在南側將軍山的無人機訓練中心我們因應兵力節奏調整各作戰區設立了無人機的專責部隊我們必須要有一個訓場跟他的組裝教室在駐地完成訓練以因應接裝了攻擊型無人機之後能夠做一個訓練上的接軌以上報告好"},{"start":6610.913,"end":6620.41,"text":"馬委員就讓我做處理好不好先讓我講三分鐘就好我們最後就是賴委員跟馬委員我們最後再說明那我就做處理了好處息了"},{"start":6624.4,"end":6652.011,"text":"好 部長最後回答好 主席各位委員還有各位官員我想這個國防防衛這塊相當的重要因為當還是有很多的軍事威脅對著台灣的時候那如果我們不願意強化我們自己國防的決心的時候我們對我們國防的力量不願意給予支持的時候那一方面會讓敵軍更有侵略的一個企圖這個往往更加的高風險"},{"start":6652.731,"end":6670.571,"text":"特別是我們面對的是一個極權的國家它是少數人做決定的那有可能做出錯誤的決策所以我覺得強化我們的防衛能量這對於保護台灣的安全保護台海的和平保護中華民國安全就非常的重要所以我們還是希望"},{"start":6671.132,"end":6690.568,"text":"各位能夠大力的支持那特別是這樣的預算的通過同時也在全世界都在看全世界在看台灣有沒有防衛自我的一個決心如果我們國會並沒有支持我們的國防部沒有支持行政院的這些國防預算的時候那也可能會讓全世界的民主國家的同盟"},{"start":6691.649,"end":6718.499,"text":"覺得好像台灣並沒有強烈自我防衛的一個決心這都會影響到大家的一個軍心上的動搖所以我們還是希望朝野各政黨能夠以國家為優先能夠支持這樣的預算那如果有任何的意見的話那真的不行就保留下來讓國防部在座溝通但是我們還是希望這樣的預算最後能夠通過一起來支持國軍一起來支持我們台海的和平一起來支持我們民主同盟的力量謝謝"},{"start":6719.679,"end":6733.648,"text":"好 那我們最後體愛委員 馬委員在做說明之後我們請部長做回覆 我就做處理 好 謝謝好 特別預算我們希望它真的是增強我們國軍的韌性剛剛我們提到的很多都一樣 靶機我們剛剛問的問題沒有給我們答案我們要的是數量因為我們連續五年11121314115還包括到明年"},{"start":6746.896,"end":6762.903,"text":"今年也在做明年也在做明年還要做所以如果參謀長說這個部分要提升我們以前沒有這樣子的一個功能效能那你明年為什麼做這樣的東西你是做老舊的或者我們不需要的嗎"},{"start":6763.823,"end":6773.148,"text":"你今天如果說明年都還有編帳的預算你就應該符合我們的需求如果你的量不夠告訴我們量多少才夠到現在目前為止還沒有給我具體的數量我們要的是你多少才夠不然因為你連編了五年現在突然跟我們說不夠然後在每個營區都做這樣我們沒有辦法去審查這是第一個"},{"start":6786.135,"end":6812.753,"text":"第二個金湯銀區我為什麼舉這個例子是因為他才剛在設計他是整個銀區的設計案喔所以如果你有一個其他什麼教學大樓這個怎麼會不一樣你通通一個銀區裡面的設計案怎麼會把它區分出來說在特別預算裡面用另外的方式要去做執行這個我們覺得這樣的說明也是有問題的我們一直強調所謂的韌性是"},{"start":6816.135,"end":6845.695,"text":"在暫時包括我們的用水用水不是你放五年它叫韌性而是如果你需要水的時候我們的水庫會不會受到影響水庫會受到影響的時候我們應該著緊現在在座有很多都是國軍他們很清楚如果我們需要水的時候我們水從哪裡來不是只有儲存的那種戰備用水你如果放在一個地方臨時要的時候要怎麼送去給所有人"},{"start":6846.435,"end":6862.186,"text":"那個都是一個說詞而已如果我們真正的需要剛剛說鋼棚鋼棚可以做什麼以前我們的車輛輪行車輛放在哪裡參議長要不要先回應一下我們以前的車輛放在哪裡戶外"},{"start":6864.758,"end":6889.283,"text":"以前我們就是一些簡易的掩體有掩體就是那種兩個土地之間你現在蓋幾乎每個地方鋼棚也麻煩給我們數量在這協調之前因為我本來很多案我已經把它濃縮你讓我把它說明清楚好不好有點細節了我想原則性的我們講一下因為我要的是數量他沒有給數量我們沒有辦法審算我們請國防部要給書面資料這個部分"},{"start":6890.063,"end":6900.906,"text":"我們再一次強調如果鋼筒要那麼多我們不知道拿來做什麼在監察院的報告裡面他的檢討裡面其實他甚至覺得我們的機庫寶機寶是不夠的我們現在買最貴的F16我們總共可能是全世界現在最多的F16戰機可是我們的戰機沒地方放"},{"start":6915.129,"end":6931.463,"text":"我們有很多的戰甲車我們的掩體老舊破損我們在這一次也沒看到去做這些的整修我們的跑滑道可能也受到這些損害也希望藉由有經費的時候應該要去做的"},{"start":6933.445,"end":6955.99,"text":"另外還有一個水很重要油也很重要我們在現在難道不需要如果這麼緊張的情況之下我們的地下油庫還包括我們的蓄水池其實這些才是應該要做的而不是做游泳池我們在這一次的案子裡面也看到很多游泳池我們希望如果有時間"},{"start":6958.01,"end":6972.464,"text":"不要一直催促如果這樣我們覺得你既然叫我全部一起講那我們這麼多的案子大家一起講的時候不要一直也讓你唱所欲言這個部分是不是我們就我們希望不應該就這個部分"},{"start":6974.165,"end":6983.028,"text":"來做個結論你的油如果我們所有的飛機我們的車子我們所有的武器裝備如果這樣子一個人就在癱瘓的話我建議乾脆沒有共識要不要往下處理你趕快處理你沒有提案的人"},{"start":6989.19,"end":6992.374,"text":"我們有提案我們現在已經把它統整一起講了如果你覺得這樣浪費時間你用的是一千一百億國家的預算人民的預算你覺得這樣是不應該講的我們所有的民生很辛苦的一件事如果不提案的委員可以這樣講叫大家不講話但是笑話"},{"start":7009.893,"end":7011.814,"text":"我們就保留送協商我們40案到第87案我們就保留送協商今天"},{"start":7032.49,"end":7048.184,"text":"因為案子真的蠻多的啦等一下還有發言的機會我在處理這個案子從40案到第87案我們就保留送協商所以等一下是一案一案的討論知道嗎好 第88案"},{"start":7050.687,"end":7076.26,"text":"這個88案那個我想話不必講一堆啦這個東西七百多億七百多億的提升資通作業環境以設備裡面啦這個等等等等的喔那麼我是提案3.2億啦你看3.2億是比較快啦這樣啦不必講裡面內容太多內容不用了那國務長"},{"start":7079.273,"end":7101.213,"text":"你怎麼不能跟我講一塊錢不能刪呢因為如果其他全面的案子都保留協商的話那賴委員能不能夠免以同意讓我們能夠保留一起到黨團協商的時候我們再來討論一個金額這樣可以嗎你保留是不好的你在這裡我可以放水去那裡不會放水喔"},{"start":7103.928,"end":7121.854,"text":"因為那你國防部都不要審了那國防部全部都保留了那第88案也保留送協商好 國防部全部保留第89案主席我建議國防部因為既然有些有意見也是都要協商的那乾脆國防部有意見的就保留下來再處理那國防部的提案我總有一件都要保留就這樣"},{"start":7122.774,"end":7137.646,"text":"好 沒關係來 第89案如果賴委員同意那就是就這個703億的部分就3.2億的話那在黨團協商沒有再提我想我們可以接受這樣子的量度那就這樣說700到底2億怎麼會太多"},{"start":7145.619,"end":7173.051,"text":"客戶自行調整兩億給你你總共拿一千多億兩億給你不好意思喔 主席我們有提案的我們對這個那個也有意見喔所以如果要保留協商我們還是希望不要在這裡就訂一個那個數額我覺得一律保留協商好了委員我就一律保留協商好了啦好不好 我們一律保留協商因為如果全數是兩億我們沒有意見但是因為其他的那個馬委員的兩億客戶自行調整嗎 這樣"},{"start":7174.574,"end":7197.828,"text":"但是因為其他還有案子所以主席因為這還有其他的案子你現在這樣也不好處理我建議就都保留啦好第十八十八案我們送朝野協商保留送朝野協商好第八十九案改組決議委員也同意改組決議好那我們修正後通過第九十案凍結案"},{"start":7204.486,"end":7213.343,"text":"那有跟蘇委員有溝通過了嗎有去溝通但是目前還沒有一個共識那我們先保留第90案我們保留第91案主決議"},{"start":7217.108,"end":7244.643,"text":"一決一辦理那個九十一案的部分我想趁這個九十一案的部分我們說明一下就是剛剛馬委員有關心的為了確保這個相關工程跟鋼棚的這個規格跟要求所以我們會同意由軍備局統合就按照馬委員的這個提案就是統合各預算月管及需求單位來律定個案工程的鋼棚項目的規格要求"},{"start":7246.124,"end":7248.465,"text":"然後來定期召開工程會議檢討這個會議的管制情形那這個就依照馬委員的意見就是徵召辦理嘛對 但是我這邊說明一下對 我這邊說明一下就是說因為現在有提到就是說有關我們的這個應變中心裡面有關那個"},{"start":7267.789,"end":7283.712,"text":"桌子跟椅子還有椅子部分是聯合作戰指揮中心裡面的那我想就這個部分250萬的這個部分是供50個席位作業使用部長我們這個實際的訓練是講的我稍微說明一下白長你不要講了那另外這個聯合作戰指揮中心的這個部分我們一定不會讓這個椅子會買到5萬塊錢我們會把它刪減到一個金額這個部分沒有問題好 91案就是遭案通過來 92案主決議"},{"start":7300.59,"end":7325.763,"text":"一題案辦理好 招案通過93案主決議一題案辦理好 招案通過94案主決議一題案辦理好 招案通過95案主決議95案的部分一題案辦理好 招案通過第96案主決議96案的部分有文字的修正委員也同意文字修正通過97案"},{"start":7329.03,"end":7349.058,"text":"97案跟委員同時文字修正通過98案文字修正98案是也是文字修正那文字修正通過99案那現在國防部就告一個段落那我們接下來請財政部"},{"start":7365.86,"end":7387.951,"text":"來 第99案 來 莊部長這邊這是凍結案改組決議這個案子 謝謝委員同意改組決議了然後三個月提書面報告改組決議 三個月提書面報告然後也不凍結了修正後通過"},{"start":7389.857,"end":7399.127,"text":"第一百案一百案跟一百零一案是一起的一百零 一百零一案和平處理 和平處理"},{"start":7402.455,"end":7427.196,"text":"沒有 就加主決議這樣子 好不好那你要刪多少他們同意了 他們同意了大概是 就是兩千三兩千萬 文宣刪一百二十五萬另外一個主決議對 沒有就是兩千萬裡面涵蓋了一百二十五萬剪掉兩千萬"},{"start":7430.928,"end":7454.796,"text":"除了啦好 那第100案跟101案做以上說明我們減列2000萬然後除了文宣3 125萬元之外其餘科目自行調整然後還有加主決議是 謝謝101主決議對 是"},{"start":7458.581,"end":7480.696,"text":"好 那我們修正後通過第102案102案委員已經同意修正了好 主席我再補充一下因為這個普化現金對於偏鄉偏鄉的很多弱勢跟老人在很多地方其實是要特別注意的所以我也希望說國庫署在這個造冊還有就是說跟地方政府的一個溝通"},{"start":7485.96,"end":7501.473,"text":"這個確實有它的一個需要性以上做這樣的一個提醒好 那遵照辦理我們遵照辦理修正案 修正後通過改組決議修正後通過103案 組決議我們遵照辦理招案通過 104案紅路"},{"start":7511.033,"end":7535.41,"text":"103你們那個把最後一句以確保民眾接收正確資訊並保護其權益不受損害這個你們是不要寫下去喔沒有啦好那103我們就是可是現在教育部了好那我們財政部結束我們現在換教育部謝謝"},{"start":7538.775,"end":7556.968,"text":"接下來我們是到104案104案 113案 我們併案來做處理"},{"start":7567.062,"end":7591.108,"text":"那簡略強化高等教育人才培育六千萬科目自行調整然後還有一百零四案的是主決議嘿嘿嘿"},{"start":7593.635,"end":7595.476,"text":"104跟113並案然後我們104案是改成主決議我重新宣讀我們104案我們保留"},{"start":7625.404,"end":7639.218,"text":"那105案改組決議交易部可以嗎可以可以換你好那照案通過修正後通過106案組決議動解建議改組決議有跟郭委員有討論過了嗎"},{"start":7650.768,"end":7676.536,"text":"如果還沒有我們就保留好 保留還沒有我們就保留我們第106案保留那第107案委員已經同意改組決議改組決議委員同意好 那我們修正後通過改組決議第108案主席不好意思108案有改組決議嗎有 委員已經同意改組決議"},{"start":7679.912,"end":7699.952,"text":"有沒有108案如果有要改的話要附上這一個和委員同意的有嗎要早點送過來剛沒看到來108案文字修正後我們改組決議文字修正後通過"},{"start":7708.052,"end":7734.74,"text":"109案主席 109跟111 兩案並案那在這裡跟部長再做一個說明就是說你的強化高等教育可能要跟部長特別做一個溝通就是本席的選區裡頭就是我們的機器人專區那我們希望就是說借重大協部的一個高等的師資來"},{"start":7736.781,"end":7744.393,"text":"就是延伸我們那些高教高職的一個協程我們希望盡快把它排進去好不好"},{"start":7746.018,"end":7766.51,"text":"包括這是我們既定的這個整個高校人才跟產業人才的需求這是一個我們既定的重點學長要趕快排進去因為距離上一次溝通已經超過了三個月了那所以再一次做這樣的一個提醒好不好謝謝部長好那我們第109案改組決議修正後通過那110案改組決議修正後通過"},{"start":7774.727,"end":7799.189,"text":"111案主決議好 照案通過112案主決議照案通過113案就是剛剛處理過了這是賴委員的簡列我們剛剛有處理 簡列六千萬然後科目自行調整好 114案這委員已經同意改凍結五百萬"},{"start":7801.601,"end":7822.091,"text":"委員已經同意改凍結500萬好那113改成凍結500萬然後修正後通過強化高等教育人才培育業務費凍結500萬修正後通過115案遵照辦理好"},{"start":7831.755,"end":7852.747,"text":"召喚通過116案遵道辦理召喚通過117案報告主席這個部分已經跟委員這邊先講了現在教育部已經結束了教育部已經結束了接下來我們請經濟部我們謝謝教育部謝謝委員 謝謝主席來 117"},{"start":7867.183,"end":7884.237,"text":"接下來我們是經濟部117案我們改成主決議這個部分應該委員這邊已經寫好已經簽名了有一些文字修正那我們改成主決議修正後通過118案改主決議修正後通過119案改主決議修正後通過120案"},{"start":7893.365,"end":7919.643,"text":"一百二十案主席一百二十案是不是可以請求就是我們會準決支出然後是不是可以改為三減一千萬元三減一千萬那位好三減一千好這根本進行調整不然 林委員好"},{"start":7925.152,"end":7935.624,"text":"好 120 案協助企業開拓多元市場簡列業務費一千萬科目自行調整修正後通過121 案"},{"start":7939.794,"end":7966.955,"text":"主席 我補充一下我想就是當今台美的關稅那個整體對我們台灣的一個經濟那科技產業是非常好可是我們的這個傳統產業面臨到一個非常大的困境所以我們期待就是說協助企業要開拓多元的一個市場這個是當然經濟部持續在做了而且再一次提醒提醒經濟部在這一段要特別的強化"},{"start":7967.947,"end":7995.448,"text":"好 那所以改成主決議嗎我也同意改主決議好 那我們改主決議修正後通過122案主決議遵照辦理好 遭案通過123案主決議遵照辦理好 遭案通過124案主決議遵照辦理遵照辦理遭案通過125案主決議遵照辦理好 遭案通過126案主決議遵照辦理遭案通過127案主決議"},{"start":7997.639,"end":8023.157,"text":"遵照辦理召喚通過128案主決議遵照辦理召喚通過129案主決議遵照辦理召喚通過130案主決議這邊有一些文字修正那下面第三點每半年是不是可以改成每年然後向立法院報告加兩個字 書面報告那賴委員在現場130案"},{"start":8028.527,"end":8031.11,"text":"改每年然後書面修正後通過131案遵照辦理通過132案"},{"start":8045.51,"end":8061.623,"text":"我也同意改文字文字修正後通過133案主決議 遵照辦理召喚通過134案主決議 遵照辦理召喚通過136案主決議 遵照辦理召喚通過137案主決議 遵照辦理"},{"start":8067.635,"end":8087.178,"text":"這邊我們有一些文字修正文字修正這個意思其實也沒有違背大概就是張七幹委員有跟張委員有溝通過了嗎目前是沒有那我們先保留好了先去做說明138案主決議遵照辦理"},{"start":8088.53,"end":8113.069,"text":"137案保留138案 遭案通過139案 主決議遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照"},{"start":8117.479,"end":8123.642,"text":"對專案改書面書面報告是不是我們可以同意書委有沒有意見他有沒有意見他沒有特別講說同意或不同意的書面"},{"start":8134.662,"end":8149.73,"text":"好那141案我們改書面報告好謝謝委員那修正後通過謝謝委員142案遵照辦理好專案通過143案遵照辦理專案通過144案委員已同意改組決議好改組決議修正後通過145案委員已經同意改組決議好改組決議修正後通過146案"},{"start":8160.654,"end":8183.696,"text":"我們這邊希望奈委員這邊能不能刪減的金額一千萬好一千萬那就一千萬一千萬好一百一十四六案簡略提升產業競爭力業務費一千萬科目事情調整是一百四十七案"},{"start":8184.688,"end":8191.534,"text":"147案協助企業開拓多元市場簡列業務費1000萬科目自行調整我們修正後通過148案"},{"start":8213.444,"end":8236.771,"text":"148案的部分是不是也是可以讓我們改書面有跟委員有溝通過了嗎有跟五委員溝通了嗎五委員目前還沒有那我們先保留148先保留149案這個部分也還沒有跟委員溝通對 是那我們就先保留這個要先溝通150案"},{"start":8241.723,"end":8260.977,"text":"150案的部分是不是也可以讓我們調整成委員賴委員對啊那150案我先保留你們去跟他溝通這個你們要先做好溝通有嗎"},{"start":8265.551,"end":8288.091,"text":"應該還沒有 他一律都是這樣還沒有溝通 我接下來就先保留趕快去跟賴委員溝通151案 遵照辦理 通過152案這個部分也是我們希望修改文字 文字項目國家後面加一個地區然後預計深化資產列改為項目"},{"start":8289.554,"end":8313.01,"text":"然後並於一個月 兩週改為一個月好有嗎 我這邊沒有我們這邊沒有文字修正好152案我們主決議文字修正後通過來 我們這邊主席台這邊要有資料好153案"},{"start":8318.758,"end":8321.265,"text":"改组决议好 我们修正后通过154案"},{"start":8327.386,"end":8353.06,"text":"好 那就500沒有 這個是先保留好不好 先保留因為我還是建議那個委員本人在現場會比較因為助理講的時候大家也不太清楚到底真相怎樣好不好好 那我們153案如果沒有達成共識的就保留153案我們保留因為他們有書記長在啦154案改組決議委已經同意好 修正通過 組決議修正後通過"},{"start":8355.357,"end":8378.016,"text":"155案委員已經同意修正文字改組決議改成組決議然後有修正文字改組決議然後這個文字有經過的委員同意嗎有文字修正後通過156案"},{"start":8382.018,"end":8398.445,"text":"這個部分我們還要再跟委員溝通一下那要保留157案157案遵照辦理這樣通過158案這個部分也需要再跟委員溝通一下也還沒有溝通那我們158案保留159案159案"},{"start":8407.29,"end":8429.415,"text":"一個月改三個月那我們有跟邱委員報告邱委員有口頭有答應啦改一個月改三個月倒數第四好那我們一個月改成三個月那修正後通過好謝謝委員160案好我們結束好那經濟部結束了要溝通趕快去溝通喔"},{"start":8435.778,"end":8442.08,"text":"保留的還可以啦 趕快去做溝通137溝通完畢了是不是過了過了 我們現在已經到勞動部了接下來是勞動部"},{"start":8461.341,"end":8486.058,"text":"160案委員同意改組決議有改組決議嗎改組決議已簽署改成組決議修正後通過161案遵照辦理召喚通過162案遵照辦理召喚通過163案組決議有修正部分文字委員已簽署改組決議本來就組決議有修正部分文字文字修正後通過"},{"start":8488.353,"end":8502.245,"text":"164案 遵照辦理 遵照通過165案 遵照辦理 遵照通過166案主決議文字有調整 我願意簽署文字修正後通過"},{"start":8504.451,"end":8522.642,"text":"167案 遵照辦理召喚通過168案 遵照辦理召喚通過169案 遵照辦理召喚通過170案有修正部分文字我願意簽署文字修正後通過171案 遵照辦理召喚通過172案 改組決議已經簽署改組決議修正後通過173案 改組決議已經簽署"},{"start":8531.886,"end":8541.771,"text":"改組決議改組決議好173案改組決議修正後通過有有有有我們才會處理174案改組決議已簽署修正後改組決議修正後通過175案175案還在跟翁委員溝通爭取175案保留176案改組決議已簽署"},{"start":8561.58,"end":8582.039,"text":"改成主決議修正後通過177案改主決議簽署改主決議修正後通過178案改主決議簽署改成主決議修正後通過170那勞動部 案子到這邊結束 謝謝接下來我們請農業部"},{"start":8595.752,"end":8612.111,"text":"好 那農業部第179案那179案因為那個翁委員我們提供他的已經提供他資料了那我們是希望好 那我們就沒有 他就是接受他就是那我們先保留好了好 先保留好了"},{"start":8616.393,"end":8634.617,"text":"180 改組決議那委員已經同意改組決議修正後通過181 改組決議修正後通過182 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議修正後通過183 改組決議"},{"start":8640.714,"end":8667.7,"text":"好 那改成主決議修正後通過加書面報告來 改書183案改成書面報告沒有 主決議加書面報告主決議加書面報告好 那修正後通過好 那184案那改主決議加書面報告好 改主決議加書面報告修正後通過185案"},{"start":8670.566,"end":8680.803,"text":"180案也是改組決議加書面報告改組決議加書面報告修正後通過186案委員也同意改組決議加書面報告"},{"start":8682.396,"end":8698.863,"text":"改組決議加書面報告修正後通過187案委員同意改組決議加書面報告改組決議加書面報告修正後通過188案遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理遵照辦理"},{"start":8705.376,"end":8728.241,"text":"那個委員也修正文字就是本來就主決議的文字修正後通過192案文字修正文字修正後通過193案也是委員同意文字修正文字修正後通過194案委員也同意文字修正文字修正後通過"},{"start":8730.626,"end":8739.084,"text":"195案委員同意文字修正文字修正後通過196案委員同意文字修正文字修正後通過"},{"start":8742.724,"end":8766.991,"text":"197案委員同意文字修正文字修正後通過198案委員同意文字修正文字修正後通過199案遵照辦理招案通過200案遵照辦理招案通過201案遵照辦理招案通過202案文字修正委員同意文字修正後通過203案改組決議"},{"start":8772.645,"end":8782.751,"text":"委員同意改組決議203案改組決議修正後通過204案委員也同意改組決議加書面報告204案改組決議加書面報告修正後通過組決議委員同意就組決議不用書面報告最後一案就組決議就好204案改組決議修正後通過謝謝農業部謝謝 謝謝委員接下來請衛福部"},{"start":8821.401,"end":8825.642,"text":"好 衛福部從第205案開始205案已經獲五委員同意改組決議改組決議修正後通過206案"},{"start":8836.967,"end":8852.624,"text":"也謝謝黃委員同意改組決議改組決議修正後通過207案也是吳委員已經同意改組決議改組決議修正後通過208案遵照辦理召喚通過209案召喚通過210案"},{"start":8858.929,"end":8870.522,"text":"211案有關於要撤離能不能直接通告的部分有跟他們討論過就修正以後可以通過那文字修正後通過謝謝王委員211案"},{"start":8874.15,"end":8895.396,"text":"也是王委員文字修正文字修正後通過文字修正後通過212案遵照辦理招案通過213案遵照辦理招案通過213案遵照辦理招案通過214案遵照辦理招案通過215案"},{"start":8901.631,"end":8916.296,"text":"因為是徐委員因為他說一個月我們是不是有一些文字上的修正215可以215可以215可以 純照辦216215 照案通過照案通過照案通過他是主決議"},{"start":8929.389,"end":8929.889,"text":"對 沒關係 對 還可以對"},{"start":8945.512,"end":8968.936,"text":"照原來的215案就是照案通過對216案是希望一個月改成三個月時間上還有書面報告可以吧一個月比較趕可不可以三個月我們就三個月書面報告三個月書面報告好 謝謝"},{"start":8972.337,"end":8997.898,"text":"好那第216案我們主決議我們改三個月書面報告謝謝委員那其他文字不做變動修正後通過好217案也是三個月然後書面報告2217有一個月對對對一個月改三個月都一樣不改文字文字不要改就是三個月對"},{"start":9002.466,"end":9023.734,"text":"217案我們改成三個月內提書有三個月有 他有一個月內就是三個月內提書面報告修正後通過謝謝委員218案也是一樣一個月改成三個月書面報告書記長我們一樣"},{"start":9025.875,"end":9043.27,"text":"218案我們改成三個月內提書面報告修正後通過謝謝委員219案也是一樣那個一個月改成三個月然後書面報告好那219案我們改三個月內提書面報告修正後通過220案"},{"start":9046.882,"end":9073.071,"text":"220案委員有同意做文字修正220案文字修正後通過221案遵照辦理召喚通過222案那個委員已經同意修正文字改主決議222案改主決議修正後通過223案賴委員也同意改主決議修正通過改成主決議修正後通過224案"},{"start":9076.143,"end":9091.096,"text":"委員已經同意改三那個五五百五百案然後併通案對對兩百二十"},{"start":9093.699,"end":9097.52,"text":"選多少500案併通案3、500萬改成3、500萬併通案對併前面的那個媒體對 第一案3、500對對對對對對"},{"start":9122.321,"end":9130.247,"text":"這是我們這個 對對然後科目我們自行調整對對好對對對好對對對好"},{"start":9151.241,"end":9167.266,"text":"這個是業務費 這是業務費前面比例的個案子對對對 啊這一個科的是這邊修的是業務費對 照這個文字就對了對 照這個文字就好了對"},{"start":9174.034,"end":9174.675,"text":"我們是在業務費裡頭啊"},{"start":9192.133,"end":9200.495,"text":"對…沒錯 是…如果梅薰山270你們這邊就在幣對…意思是這樣對…"},{"start":9223.55,"end":9233.12,"text":"來 這個一個完整的文字給我們好嗎他們說前面的梅軒的5%是167啦來 他們算一下算一下"},{"start":9239.107,"end":9241.628,"text":"167 文宣會 前面的沒宣是167162.7"},{"start":9267.824,"end":9272.006,"text":"第224案 簡列協助落實業務費"},{"start":9286.906,"end":9310.897,"text":"5百萬 含文宣費162萬7千修正後通過225萬委員已經簽名同意改組決議 三個月提書面報告改組決議三個月提書面報告修正後通過226案"},{"start":9314.037,"end":9338.783,"text":"委員已經簽名可以修正文字好 那修正後通過227案也是修正文字 中委員的對 我們就好還改成什麼2727就是文字建議不用會同內政部就是不用再會同內政部由衛福部提出這樣那文字在哪裡是不是這一個這個嘛對 這有了"},{"start":9343.94,"end":9371.557,"text":"在哪裡來給我一份227案那就是修正後通過228案等一下這個衛福部已經結束了謝謝衛福部接下來是我們海委會來請"},{"start":9386.269,"end":9389.013,"text":"好那我們接下來是海委會從228案開始對第228案"},{"start":9399.122,"end":9403.963,"text":"主委要說明一下有關於要刪掉水溫監測這10億的部分我準備了一個資料給大家看大概目前中國大陸那邊"},{"start":9419.409,"end":9439.066,"text":"他們的科研船大概總共有70幾艘是在我們台灣周邊的海域經常來這裡做調查那我只是找出其中的40艘這40艘這三年在我們周邊海域包括南海等等他的航跡圖"},{"start":9440.785,"end":9467.676,"text":"大家看一下就是說這簡直就是說中國大陸對台海的了解比台灣更了解那我們的海域的調研每一年大概都只有五千萬所以我們現在的這個計畫必須做海域的水文地質等等的這些調查是真的不能再等了"},{"start":9468.476,"end":9477.422,"text":"光是這三年我們就被人家調查到幾乎要爛掉了大家看一下這個航跡多可怕我看一下"},{"start":9485.751,"end":9512.051,"text":"大家看一下這個航跡圖那種密度 密密麻麻紅色的都是中國的調研船而且他的調查的結果就在國際的會議發表然後呢 就指控說是我們的問題這樣子那我們幾乎都我們那種全海域的調查幾乎是等於還是荒蕪的地步所以這個部分是不是能夠請委員支持那跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":9512.991,"end":9537.923,"text":"我們跟委員溝通大概溝通到就是委員有談到說那是不是凍結10億改書面那我是請求說能不能把這個10億的凍結數再稍微下修因為10億的話會讓我們分散下去的時候幾乎所有的標案都變成保留訣標那如果能夠下修那是不是就可以來支持我們這樣子好來 這一張我也給我們那個書記長看一下"},{"start":9549.64,"end":9559.767,"text":"主席我想這樣因為謝謝國民黨書記長因為他們提案委員不在那繼續尊重委員當然他們是提議保留但是我覺得這個案子既然委員在場"},{"start":9560.467,"end":9576.514,"text":"還是大家可以聽完了主委的表達之後我想也要表達非常誠摯的跟嚴重的關心怎麼說嚴重的關心呢那當然這個看起來啊這個藍色跟黃色的這個部分這個意思是指什麼"},{"start":9578.015,"end":9595.748,"text":"那個是界線那什麼的界線譬如說像以這個來講的話已經進到我們的已經進到我們的限制水域我的意思說為什麼它剛剛好可以框出這麼一個輪廓線那是依據我們領海基線下去劃設的所以也就是說"},{"start":9596.748,"end":9624.422,"text":"跟临界区的界线它已经非常逼近我们的临海的界线进来了已经进来我们的临界区域蓝色的已经进来了然后有一些甚至于我们发现说它已经进来到我们临海了都在调查我们的海域那你看看它对东部你看看东部已经都进来到我们的限制水域这么严重的地步进入我们临海进入我们的限制水域但是呢我们的调查几乎我这样说好了我想这个问题虽然明知曰"},{"start":9625.362,"end":9647.693,"text":"中國科研船在台灣周邊的調查事實上我們自己相對應的我們在應付應對不明國籍或可疑的船舶接連割斷我國對外的通訊光纖海纜這個情況已經日記加重那麼我們除了透過修法來補強之外我們要在裝備設備上又要加強"},{"start":9648.433,"end":9672.901,"text":"那本席過去也是支持包括動用到無人載具包括無人機水上無人載具水下無人載具這個我們都支持那現在呢我是覺得還會要清楚的說明說除了有這些即時的查緝的機具跟權利之外平常時期對我們周邊海域的科研調查他對於我們掌握我們國家對外光纖海欄通訊安全的必要性在哪裡"},{"start":9673.741,"end":9691.566,"text":"譬如說這樣的一個調查可以更有助於我們掌握我們海底的狀況那我們目前台灣的通訊密碼的這些光纖海纜它佈設的情況有沒有遭到破壞有沒有需要維修這也是我們必須有這樣的海紋的基礎水紋的基礎我們才有辦法去做"},{"start":9692.466,"end":9716.136,"text":"做這樣的一個必要的維護跟預防是不是說這樣的科研調查的必要性是不是海委會可以再具體的說明一下因為本席過去以來一直關切的或國人關切的就是台灣作為一個以通訊為命脈的經貿的國家如果這個海欄一旦被切斷那我們這個國家就停擺了那這個部分兩者的關聯為何是不是海委會說明一下"},{"start":9717.388,"end":9733.522,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員指導那舉個例子就是說我們這筆預算裡面有要買水下滑翔翼就是說當我們從水下去看假設我們自己我們就有這樣的一個工具的話那"},{"start":9734.583,"end":9753.859,"text":"以海嵐來講 當然調查水文 地形跟地質那在地形的部分對於我們保護海嵐是有幫助的譬如說海嵐區的地形它經過脫網的破壞或者是它經過沖刷長期的發展下來它的脆弱性是什麼"},{"start":9754.901,"end":9764.521,"text":"這個在地形跟地質的研究上面基本上都是有助於我們去了解說那我海嵐應該要怎麼樣的防護或者是怎麼樣的汰換"},{"start":9766.259,"end":9794.72,"text":"那基本上就是我們買水下的無人載具的時候一發生事情我們馬上就可以出去看所以它也是會有幫助的那海嵐的部分是這樣那水文也好或者是地形跟地質的調查這對於海域的研究來講它是非常非常基礎非常重要的它跟我們部件整個的水下的海防來講也是很重要的一塊所以真的是拜託委員能不能幫忙"},{"start":9795.541,"end":9821.073,"text":"那如果說委員凍結10億然後書面報告如果能夠下修譬如說如果是凍結5億然後給我們用書面報告的話我不知道是不是委員能不能支持那委員也是希望說我們做好嘛那我們也願意做好是不是可以請委員給我們支持那書記長因為你也是共體委員我想說我想說這邊OK"},{"start":9828.938,"end":9845.858,"text":"我想說你也是基隆出身的委員我是連署人而且我是尊重提案的委員的想法今天提案的委員不在場的話那我覺得如果我貿貿然做出決定他相當不尊重所以我想所有委員對每個人之間都是一樣所以我建議這個案子保留"},{"start":9846.398,"end":9865.704,"text":"好 我想說你也是基隆的委員來支持一下我對於海的了解可能跟大家不太一樣因為我很清楚的知道說現在目前海嵐的問題與其是說單純的是說有關國防倒不如說有關法律也就是說現在這些內海的漁船是不是直接跑是不是違規"},{"start":9866.704,"end":9885.426,"text":"跑到外海去那這個問題其實如果以其他國際法來看的話不管是印尼還是說菲律賓他們的國際法都是說如果針對這件事情來講航港局 交通部 海巡署是有絕對的關係的與其去大量的去再支援我個人的了解就是針對"},{"start":9887.268,"end":9903.162,"text":"違規的傳播 嚴格取締這點是可以杜絕差不多一半以上的問題但是我今天我們不是在討論這個內容我們今天是來討論說預算該怎麼樣做所以我們把精神留在預算上面那我尊重提案人的想法所以我建議還是保留"},{"start":9903.482,"end":9930.621,"text":"好那沒關係那我們就保留協商我還是因為謝謝我們林委員那麼他也是非常的委婉也非常誠懇因為有其他的提案人不在場以下我們的慣例都會尊重那是說剛剛針對剛剛的內容我也有部分認同剛剛林委員的說法就是說水文調查是一個基礎但是預防海染被破壞我們要有其他的強力的作為我之前也在兩天前看到TBS的報導"},{"start":9931.562,"end":9954.684,"text":"是美国的一个智库他们所去了解的现在他们甚至中国的船舶透过变更AIS的识别系统冒充俄罗斯的船来靠近我们的海域像现在这样的新闻层出不穷比如说对方是千方百计的在探测我们的弱点"},{"start":9955.655,"end":9977.754,"text":"如果大家看過侏羅紀公園那個第一集我印象很深那一隻暴君恐龍都不斷碰電網大家看嘛看哪裡沒有電那這種情況之下我們國家的一個通訊跟國防安全如果沒有一個水文基礎來做支撐那我也覺得剛剛林委員說的除了這個預算的執行之外是否在其他的相關的法令的強化譬如說AIS"},{"start":9978.697,"end":9991.759,"text":"他這個識別系統他如果是冒充身份那我們有沒有什麼法令對於這樣冒充身份的傳播就可以及時的駕馭做一個強制處置就像說警察在抓"},{"start":9992.772,"end":10019.708,"text":"強盜小偷他這個當然是要有一個對身份盤查發現假冒身份就要有合理的懷疑了我是說剛林委員說的沒有錯的確在其他的法令作為我們要強化但是我還是要強調一下在這樣的基礎必須有一個對自己本國周邊海域的水文的了解的基礎上我們才有辦法有效的去執法大概這一點也跟林委員做回應我是某種程度認同你的主張我也希望海委會這部分要繼續加強"},{"start":10020.929,"end":10046.552,"text":"海嵐七法應該已經送到大院了到時候再要請委員們支持我最後一次發言我認為剛剛提的有關AIS還是有關假船級的問題全部都是其實這應該是航港局交通部應該去好好處理的事情那我們今天針對預算我們針對這個特別預算我們先不要離題了那我們針對預算繼續審下去我還是維持尊重提案人的意見保留好 謝謝"},{"start":10047.293,"end":10053.797,"text":"好 那我做個處理228案我們就保留送協商來 第229案改組決議修正後通過230案改凍結2000萬書面報告在哪裡"},{"start":10071.823,"end":10100.406,"text":"在哪裡200林倩琪委員的案嗎是不是這張對委員有同意凍結兩千萬改書面報告好那有230案我們改成凍結兩千萬然後改書面報告書面報告好那修正後通過好那231案改凍結五百萬書面報告好改凍結五百"},{"start":10102.165,"end":10126.06,"text":"231案231案改動節500萬家書面報告修正後通過232案改組決議修正後通過233案文字修正後通過有啊 我們都印出來了不是嗎233沒關係"},{"start":10133.641,"end":10154.297,"text":"有有有 桌上都有溝通版來 麻煩先找到資料233案文字修正後通過文字修正的時候 123的號碼沒改就是3要改2會整理234案"},{"start":10160.29,"end":10175.238,"text":"召喚辦理召喚通過 235 案遵照辦理召喚通過 236 案遵照辦理召喚通過 237 案修正文字後通過文字修正後通過謝謝我們海委會接下來我們處理 137 案"},{"start":10194.912,"end":10205.397,"text":"來137案那個給委員影印的資料給委員一下趕快給委員我們出席委員都有一份趕快趕快"},{"start":10218.891,"end":10236.064,"text":"156跟137來 資料先發一發等一下才不會說問到一半又沒有都有了嗎"},{"start":10245.427,"end":10261.32,"text":"然後先處理137137案137案文字修正後通過"},{"start":10272.057,"end":10281.28,"text":"還沒簽149還沒有是不是有嗎還沒有喔149沒有那有電話跟他溝通過嗎電話溝通一下不然火車要開囉156有簽名了喔149有149有簽名了149有149是"},{"start":10303.185,"end":10304.088,"text":"你還沒走嗎 你還沒走"},{"start":10306.135,"end":10306.675,"text":"149案改組決議修正後通過"},{"start":10344.277,"end":10361.503,"text":"156156案有溝通過了嗎改組決議和修正後通過那跟委員報告153跟158是賴世保委員的案子我們已經有跟賴世保委員那邊電話溝通過了153案 158案是什麼153跟158"},{"start":10368.611,"end":10372.492,"text":"那一案一案來 153案是跟158 153案是什麼對 就是刪減的項目500萬153 對有經過 有跟賴委員溝通了嗎有有有 有 153 500對 153是500對 500是"},{"start":10394.577,"end":10406.423,"text":"是科目字條然後158也是我一樣一樣來153153案提升產業競爭力減列500萬然後科目減列業務費500萬科目字請調整好 謝謝委員修正後通過然後還有158158是什麼也是"},{"start":10425.458,"end":10429.24,"text":"剪裂一千萬然後科目自行調整好那第158案"},{"start":10442.065,"end":10464.709,"text":"提升企業金融支持減劣業務費1000萬科目自行調整修正後通過上面那個提升改為提供他那個文字寫錯了是提供是不是提供企業提供企業好 那修正後通過還有嗎"},{"start":10466.036,"end":10481.624,"text":"所以我們就保留兩個案子148跟150我們還要再跟委員148那為什麼吳委員跟賴委員怎麼沒有溝通對 有溝通 但是還沒有簽名還沒有簽名 那電話電話聯絡一下好那還是幹事長我們對 幹事長看一下148"},{"start":10495.854,"end":10499.297,"text":"跟150那要不要請跟市長我馬上馬上談好"},{"start":10506.533,"end":10520.766,"text":"現在可以上個社會了嗎對啊 我跟他確認一下他是說溝通構思怎麼樣沒有 還沒有留得到動喔 該組決議喔那你那一百五十該組決議這樣好不好一百五十啊那個國貿署的 國貿署的 好 OKOK OK 好 可以 可以謝謝 謝謝148呢148馬上問"},{"start":10541.02,"end":10544.365,"text":"就是改組決議啊你們寫一個組決議啊好那150案就改組決議修正後通過"},{"start":10552.5,"end":10554.381,"text":"那就改組決議了 好不好有 改組決議了"},{"start":10582.492,"end":10602.69,"text":"那第148案我們改組決議文字修正後通過好 那我們案子先處理到現在我們要先做個整理麻煩留兩位委員"},{"start":10608.527,"end":10618.33,"text":"好 那我們留兩位至少留兩位委員在現場然後請官員也注意各部會應該官員都還在吧代表都還在"},{"start":10636.135,"end":10637.116,"text":"現在我做下一個行程是怎樣"},{"start":10664.102,"end":10691.237,"text":"喔 要到多遠 車程多久那事務中還可以等你一下 因為12點嘛 對不對沒關係 我們還要再出來一下你車子好 可以到群前請到群前喔 到群前喔到群前來 看我們的說語"},{"start":10693.976,"end":10702.484,"text":"再整理一下 只有保留兩個案子主席不錯 今天搞了兩天 只是保留兩個案子"},{"start":10720.926,"end":10726.112,"text":"我們在場各位委員還有我們官員我們協商完成接下來請議事人員宣讀協商結論"},{"start":10728.363,"end":10755.094,"text":"先讀協商結論第一案及第十案並案處理經濟部 勞動部 社福部簡列媒體政策及業務選導費各5%各5%第二案修正通過第三案照案通過第四案修正通過第五案 第六案 第七案 第八案照案通過第九案修正通過"},{"start":10756.474,"end":10779.21,"text":"第11案照案通過第12案照案通過第13案 14案修正通過第15案照案通過第16案修正通過第17案修正通過第18案照案通過第19案 20案 21案修正通過第22案修正通過改為主決議第23案"},{"start":10785.134,"end":10806.956,"text":"改動一千萬元提出三個月內提出書面報告經同意刪除修正通過24案25案26案照案通過27案改簡略強化國土防衛能量300萬元科目自行調整28案修正通過29"},{"start":10810.034,"end":10833.473,"text":"二十八案修正通過改為主決議第二十九案第三十案修正通過改為主決議第三十一案照案通過第三十二案第三十三案修正通過第三十四案第三十五案第三十六案第三十七案均修正通過改為主決議第三十八案"},{"start":10834.554,"end":10842.469,"text":"保留第39案保留第40案到88案均保留送協商"},{"start":10846.909,"end":10867.194,"text":"八十九案修正通過改為主決議九十案保留九十一案九十二案九十三案九十四案九十五案均照案通過九十六案九十七案九十八案修正通過九十九案修正通過改為主決議一百案"},{"start":10869.032,"end":10885.173,"text":"檢列兩千萬元含文宣費檢列一百二十五萬外其餘科目可以自行調整第101 案修正通過改為主決議第102 案修正通過改為主決議第103 案照案通過"},{"start":10886.514,"end":10904.618,"text":"第104案保留第105案修正通過改為主決議第106案保留第107案修正通過改為主決議第108案第109案第110案修正通過改為主決議第111案第112案均照案通過第113案"},{"start":10912.294,"end":10928.76,"text":"簡列強化高等教育人才培育六千萬元科目自行調整第 114 案改凍結強化高等教育人才培育向下業務費五百萬元第 115 案 116 案照案通過第 117 案 118 案 119 案均修正通過改為主決議"},{"start":10939.523,"end":10950.088,"text":"第 120 案改簡列協助企業開拓多元市場之業務費一千萬元科目自行調整第 121 案改為主決議第 122 案、123 案、124 案、125 案、126 案、127 案、128 案、129 案均照案通過"},{"start":10963.855,"end":10977.717,"text":"第130 案修正通過第131 案照案通過第132 案修正通過第133 案134 案135 案136 案均照案通過第137 案修正通過改為主決議文字修正第138 案第139 案第140 案均照案通過"},{"start":10993.086,"end":10999.027,"text":"141 案修正通過142 案跟 143 案均照案通過第 144 案 145 案修正通過改為主決議第 146 案簡略提升產業競爭利之業務費一千萬元科目自行調整第 147 案簡略提升產業競爭"},{"start":11022.315,"end":11024.379,"text":"147 案也是簡列147 案簡列協助企業開拓市場"},{"start":11035.656,"end":11055.55,"text":"之業務費1000萬元科目自行調整第148案修正通過改為主決議第149案修正通過改為主決議第150案修正通過改為主決議第151案照案通過第152案修正通過第153案簡列其業務費500萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":11058.952,"end":11063.894,"text":"簡列提升產業競爭力向下業務費500萬元科目自行調整154案跟155案修正通過改為主決議第156案修正通過改為主決議第157案照案通過第158案簡列"},{"start":11083.393,"end":11088.539,"text":"提供企業金融支持業務一千萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":11090.697,"end":11103.306,"text":"第159案修正通過第160案修正通過改為主決議第161案第162案照案通過第163案修正通過第164案165案照案通過第166案修正通過第167案168案169案照案通過第170案修正通過第171案"},{"start":11118.217,"end":11130.849,"text":"照案通過 172 案修正通過改為主決議173 案修正通過改為主決議174 案修正通過改為主決議175 案保留176 案 177 案 178 案都修正通過改為主決議179 案保留"},{"start":11141.139,"end":11142.48,"text":"180 案 181 案 182 案 183 案 184 案 185 案 186 案 187 案均修正通過改為主決議"},{"start":11154.636,"end":11159.037,"text":"188 案 189 案 190 案均照案通過191 案 192 案 193 案 194 案195 案 196 案 197 案 198 案均修正通過199 案 200 案 201 案均照案通過202 案 203 案 204 案均修正通過"},{"start":11185.469,"end":11196.176,"text":"203案修正通過 改為主決議204案修正通過 改為主決議205案 206案 207案均修正通過 改為主決議208案照案通過 209案照案通過 210案"},{"start":11212.366,"end":11224.954,"text":"211 案均修正通過212 案 213 案 214 案 215 案均照案通過216 案修正通過217 案 218 案 219 案 220 案均修正通過221 案照案通過222 案 223 案均修正通過改為主決議"},{"start":11241.544,"end":11245.606,"text":"224 案簡列協助弱勢業務費500 萬元含媒體政策及業務費162 萬 7 千元區科目自行調整"},{"start":11265.543,"end":11276.365,"text":"第225案修正通過改為主決議第226案修正通過第227案修正通過第228案保留送院會協商第229案修正通過改為主決議230案凍結強化國土防衛能量提升海域徵詢能量能2000萬元"},{"start":11296.758,"end":11311.442,"text":"其餘文字改書面報告231案改凍結500萬元加書面報告232案修正通過改為主決議233案修正通過234案 235案 236案均照案通過237案修正通過 宣讀完畢"},{"start":11326.638,"end":11352.996,"text":"请问各位委员对协商结论有无异议好 没有好 我们就通过那接下来本次会议作如下决议一 说明及询答完毕二 委员只询及未及答复请补充资讯请相关部会于一周内以书面答复委员另有要求期限者从其锁定"},{"start":11354.93,"end":11381.037,"text":"委員 邱毅盈 王玉敏 張家俊 陳金輝邱振軍 黃婕 廖偉翔 王定宇 林淑芬 許巧欣林益君 陳昭芝 林佩翔 劉建國陳玉珍 許宇珍 陳超明 謝一鳳 蘇清泉所提書面資料質詢均列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":11383.525,"end":11409.799,"text":"审查中央政府因应国际情势强化经济社会及民生国安任性特别预算案114到116年度主照协商结论通过外其余均照列令债务之举措随同协商结论减劣数调整税出正式别预算随同以上机关别审查结果调整请问各位委员对以上决议有无异议没有异议 通过"},{"start":11411.021,"end":11433.581,"text":"中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案114至116年度已審查完略擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席出席說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有好 通過"},{"start":11434.707,"end":11455.925,"text":"本次联席会议议事录授权由本席及林思明召委核定后确定请问各位委员有没有异议没有 通过本次会议议程已进行完毕堂友不在场委员补题书面质询一并列入记录刊登公报并请议事人员协助处理"},{"start":11456.601,"end":11466.896,"text":"好 那我們散會謝謝各位在場各位員還有所有官員的協助我們已經挺進到另外一步了希望10月17日能夠順利通過這個特別預算謝謝"}]}},{"id":"163995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62f9459bc8765de013819c05f3ca7f3b915dd0128aa318ab8eaa5b8daa13db02115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:43:48 - 12:57:44","影片長度":"00:13:56","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T12:43:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:57:44+08:00","duration":836,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.734718750000001,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.89034375,"end":9.379718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.438468750000002,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.72096875,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":15.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.669093750000002,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.820968750000002,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.54659375,"end":28.887218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.00534375,"end":37.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.54096875,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.74659375,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.78846875,"end":39.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.610968750000005,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.602218750000006,"end":54.486593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.29659375000001,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.346593750000004,"end":60.899093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.899093750000006,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.034093750000004,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.04346875,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.83659375,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.54846875000001,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.06221875,"end":134.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.94659375,"end":139.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.92471875,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.20659375,"end":153.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.09971875000002,"end":160.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.22096875,"end":165.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.84471875,"end":166.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.44784375,"end":168.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.11846875,"end":169.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.08034375,"end":170.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.88159375,"end":173.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.97846875000002,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.25659375,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.29034375,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.30721875,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.72909375,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.03284375,"end":178.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.07909375,"end":178.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.09596875,"end":187.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.34346875,"end":210.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.91784375,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.22784375,"end":234.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.38221875000002,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.09034375000002,"end":243.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.35159375,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.43596875000003,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.02659375000002,"end":263.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.51596875,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.92471875,"end":248.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.83784375,"end":265.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.30596875000003,"end":269.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.58409375,"end":267.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.67221875,"end":280.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.80596875000003,"end":279.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.51034375,"end":280.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.96596875,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.03346875,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.83909375,"end":302.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.83846875,"end":287.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.41221875,"end":288.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.22221875,"end":288.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.81221875,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.57534375,"end":296.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.93721875,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.22784375000003,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.56096875000003,"end":308.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.97846875000005,"end":310.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.47596875,"end":319.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.34409375,"end":322.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.47846875000005,"end":324.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.06034375,"end":326.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.29221875,"end":338.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.10221875,"end":327.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.73846875000004,"end":333.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.10034375000004,"end":340.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.61471875,"end":342.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.03659375,"end":342.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.07034375,"end":342.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.72846875000005,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.76221875000005,"end":344.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.09534375000004,"end":347.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.48721875,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.82409375000003,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.45221875000004,"end":359.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.63784375,"end":355.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.18159375000005,"end":370.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.52159375,"end":370.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.34409375,"end":372.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.32284375,"end":375.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.53784375000004,"end":376.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.88784375,"end":407.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.91659375,"end":422.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.63159375000004,"end":422.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.98596875000004,"end":432.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.79034375000003,"end":433.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.97159375,"end":438.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.14034375000006,"end":435.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.13159375000004,"end":436.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.14409375,"end":437.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.35909375000006,"end":454.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.63096875,"end":456.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.34346875000006,"end":461.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.00096875,"end":478.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.15159375,"end":470.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.57221875000005,"end":482.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.40284375000005,"end":488.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.25409375000004,"end":493.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.28721875,"end":494.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.55721875,"end":493.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.09284375000004,"end":509.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.49221875,"end":504.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.29721875,"end":515.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.81534375,"end":517.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.09346875,"end":519.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.16034375,"end":523.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.4384687500001,"end":526.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.1384687500001,"end":528.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.02846875,"end":538.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.2040937500001,"end":539.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.7565937500001,"end":546.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.3884687500001,"end":548.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.31221875,"end":566.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.0265937500001,"end":577.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.3372187500001,"end":596.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.4734687499999,"end":620.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.0647187500001,"end":625.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.90784375,"end":641.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.39471875,"end":643.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.06096875,"end":646.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.01846875,"end":656.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.6497187500001,"end":659.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.50159375,"end":662.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.64471875,"end":665.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.42471875,"end":668.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.1753437500001,"end":674.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.0478437500001,"end":677.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.6297187499999,"end":681.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.17346875,"end":683.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.27846875,"end":685.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.3203437500001,"end":693.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.0109687500001,"end":696.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.25971875,"end":701.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.4909687500001,"end":705.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.35534375,"end":706.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.40596875,"end":727.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.6472187500001,"end":788.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.92034375,"end":794.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.67471875,"end":798.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":796.63221875,"end":801.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.90596875,"end":819.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.4809687500001,"end":819.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.54846875,"end":819.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.58221875,"end":824.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.3959687500001,"end":823.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.7878437500001,"end":828.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":828.98159375,"end":837.55409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.51,"end":14.492,"text":"憲國委員發言謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長"},{"start":20.817,"end":39.287,"text":"劉仁好部長好部長可以看一下這是勞動部網站這個勞僱雙方協商減少工時實施人數的統計的頁面然後最主要是這樣這個實施無薪假的加速從5月中148家到現在9月底已經攀升到398家這是你們的統計表"},{"start":41.713,"end":53.888,"text":"那人數也從5月中2,664人一直到9月底是8,505人也就是說等於5月中到9月底實施減班的休息加速暴增2.7倍"},{"start":55.339,"end":80.935,"text":"然後實施人數更急增到3.2倍這數字應該沒有錯嘛然後我在一樣在這個委員會是在6月4號的時候我特別有這個提醒部長當時這個無薪假的加數155加然後人數是2831人我希望部長可能要趕快的及早應應那個時候那個時候部長也特別有回應我有幾個事情嘛那我們等一下來討論"},{"start":82.136,"end":88.552,"text":"然後 但是到目前為止 這個五金加人數已經來到8505人會不會很快就突破一萬大關"},{"start":90.96,"end":112.598,"text":"我們的確是要做這個減慢休息數字會再增加的這樣子的相關的準確所以說會很快喔如果部長這樣答覆我的感覺就是很快會突破到一萬大關嘛對不對好那我們就是要再快速的因應還有相關的你們之前所提出來就是說雇用安定的措施嘛然後還有這個充電再出發訓練的計畫"},{"start":114.56,"end":133.178,"text":"那我當時是特別提到說當時在6月的時候有申請僱用安定措施減30家然後申請充電再出發訓練計畫也只有7家顯示這兩項的計畫成效不髒嘛然後對企業或是勞工不具吸引力"},{"start":134.98,"end":154.517,"text":"我希望部長快速的因應之後是我可以在申請的比例到六月底前能不能提高到五成那顯然啦 現在看勞動部提供出來給我們的資料是這樣到十月的時候是申請僱用安定措施是223家有超過五成 58%申請充電再出發訓練計畫86家 只有兩成多"},{"start":161.723,"end":185.934,"text":"我們如果再談到這個人數充電站出發僅515人那對照人數只有6%這個是有問題的吧跟劉委員說明的確過去在相關的計畫裡面比較像是我如果講比較直白是以充電站出發為主因為他的這個"},{"start":187.926,"end":209.263,"text":"範圍比較寬那雇用安定措施的範圍能夠適用的行業比較窄那我們的確現在在這一次關稅衝擊我們把它我做了重新的設定我們現在是希望先以雇用安定措施為主因為他是直接的薪資的差額補貼因為的確會有一些廠商他現在受到關稅衝擊他說他他現在不一定有能力或不一定有意願來辦訓"},{"start":211.604,"end":234.939,"text":"所以我們也考慮到這個部分所以我們其實現在是以公安令措施為主那充電再出發的計畫為輔但是讓他可以兩個併領他不用二則一因為以前只能二則一現在不用二則一他可以併領所以的確在這樣子的我們的優先順序的調整後看到強化版的公安令措施他的這個申請的比率是有蠻大幅的增加應該部長導護我的意思就是說"},{"start":241.258,"end":269.275,"text":"僱用安定措施比較窄啦過去比較窄過去比較窄但是我們在8月以後蠻大幅的放寬所以我們現在其實是以僱用安定措施作為支持減慢休息勞工尤其是他的經濟收入最主要的計畫會是放在僱用安定措施裡面因為他不用參訊 不用辦訊他的程序上面更加的簡便但過去是比較窄的然後反而是充電站出發是比較寬的比較寬嘛 對不對所以我們把它顛倒過來"},{"start":270.714,"end":290.24,"text":"但是你比較寬的緩額申請的加速才佔的21%然後比較窄的緩額可以達到5成8因為原本郭安寧措施只有3個行業現在我們把它放寬到9個行業是啊 所以你們是禮拜二宣布的嘛 對不對在充電計畫這個勞工參選及企業辦訓的相關規定鬆綁是禮拜二然後換寬是回溯到8月一定啟用嘛都沒有錯嘛 對不對"},{"start":299.203,"end":324.154,"text":"你會不會覺得六月底到現在好像比較慢一點然後放寬規定之後你們有沒有預估到十一月可以突破到五成嗎我覺得可能沒有辦法一下通到那麼快啦可是我們希望盡量的放寬可是的確現在是我說給勞工的經濟知識是這個在充電器的話如果參與比例還拉不起來這真的就表示不太好用了"},{"start":325.117,"end":339.57,"text":"因為他要辦訊我知道啊那你辦訊現在也沒有也把那個取消企業辦理的課程最低人數都取消掉了嘛所以真的是放得很寬嘛啊你放得很寬然後還是拉不上來那就真的有問題啊"},{"start":341.89,"end":368.638,"text":"我的潛艦嘛 對不對 給你們做參考嘛我們現在把它設定是 它是一個輔助性的啦 對你看喔 你雇用安定措施雖然是58%啦齁 但是當時我是要求部長說六月底是不是可以達到五成嘛那現在是十月捏 還是一樣五成八捏然後在八月十三的時候 老東部你們還公告喔叫做強化版雇用安定措施 強化版喔擴大適用對象 補助金額增加然後補貼併領並不衝突嘛 對不對"},{"start":373.384,"end":389.652,"text":"我跟委員報告因為顧問安定措施基本上他會有一個要他要減半休息30天的這個制度上設計是要減半休息30天所以我們有去了解其實現在有蠻多還沒提出申請的他可能原因是他減半休息還未滿30日"},{"start":390.993,"end":407.667,"text":"那或者是他有一些英倍的文件還沒被起比方他的薪資單沒被起也有一些企業是因為他不一定每個月每個月來申請他可以是一次申請三個月所以他可能會在之後再來去回溯前面的三個月那我們有去跟他瞭解那他目前還沒來提出來申請的原因"},{"start":408.727,"end":428.099,"text":"如果部長這個事情如果我們要做快速運營其實我們都可以按計來討論嘛那時候我們是希望到6月底兩個計畫都可以突破到五成嘛對不對那你們8月份的時候去做一個放寬做一些調整嘛甚至叫做強化版嘛那我們當然也是可以說6到9那9到11一個週期大家來檢討到時候還是一樣拿不起來"},{"start":432.984,"end":456.372,"text":"那顯然就是很大的一個改善的硬硬的空間嘛這樣好不好不然這兩個計畫我覺得部長還是署都覺得是應該是可以協助勞工協助企業的但是好像這樣的成效看起來就是應該沒辦法達到你的標準啦簡單講是這樣啦好不好也應該沒有辦法達到署長的標準啦我目前是請我們分署盡量都是主動去問"},{"start":457.412,"end":477.857,"text":"你有資格申請就請你來申請我們其實都是主動不是被動等待的好啦我們就11月份的時候再來追部長還是請部長這邊可以就直接來跟委員會做一個說明跟報告看執行的狀況怎麼樣跟廖少偉講也可以跟我講也可以我們都可以再來討論好 署長你們請回啦這個我再請教部長署長可以請回了"},{"start":482.578,"end":508.665,"text":"你沒繼續站也沒有關係喔陪著部長不錯好同島一命啦齁那全台一心救花蓮這花蓮的災害看起來就像昨天我推行部長的這個事情不是只有這個因為呃展現出這樣的愛心然後放棄自己的呃這個這個可以賺錢的機會然後投入在這個災區然後導致這個生命的喪失很多很多事情都是讓我們都非常感動跟動容的啦齁那那你看齁這個"},{"start":511.066,"end":525.957,"text":"這個濁漿的妝 背著包包然後在那麼酷熱的40度底下再挖再挖 再清不然我自己流氣啦這塊頭上真的站不住了真的是站不住"},{"start":529.127,"end":546.215,"text":"你在身體力壯的年輕小伙子甚至阿兵哥你看阿兵哥都穿長袖的他不是要防曬因為他必須要著的這個制服那其他人幾乎幾乎幾乎反正我很難去形容那個地方而且那個粉塵非常多"},{"start":547.678,"end":566.516,"text":"那非常枯熱然後車輛的行駛又特別多雖然都已經有管制了那是一車一車一車這樣再進然後一車一車再出來然後還有這個搬運這個污泥的搬運很多的物資的車輛來來回回其實一般人在那個地方站一個鐘頭可能就已經"},{"start":568.086,"end":592.88,"text":"都沒了啦 然後況且還在那邊挖啦那我是要特別提醒啦 特別提醒縱暑如果沒有及時降溫啦會導致器官衰竭 甚至於死亡這是醫界一直在講的所以熱傷害跟縱暑這不是開玩笑的事情所以這些志工超人如此啦那平時在戶外高溫下工作的勞工他們也是處於在一個高縱暑風險的環境當中來做這個工作這部長應該可以認同嘛"},{"start":598.103,"end":625.094,"text":"然後你看這個氣候的極端的發展全球高溫的持續這樣的一個紀錄今年8月世界衛生組織還有這個世界氣象組織也首度的發布了針對勞工熱傷害的健康的最新的這樣的指引顯示這個高溫對全球勞工健康的威脅已經達到前所未有的緊急程度這兩個組織都已經發出這樣聲音也訂出了這樣相關指引"},{"start":626.874,"end":645.964,"text":"連日本更是在去年的夏季創下史上最熱的七月紀錄然後隨即著手強化防護措施今年新的規定 若這個七月降溫有責 沒房中暑要花50萬日元等於新台幣是10萬元左右的花款"},{"start":647.105,"end":661.072,"text":"所以我在2018年的時候本期就針對勞工熱傷害的議題有推行過這個勞動部但是我們對職安法對熱傷害的概念啦坦白講還遠不如對岸還遠不如對岸 2018的時候你看現在今年幾年了 2025了7年了"},{"start":667.608,"end":693.578,"text":"所以我是希望那個時候當然在隔年就2019的時候我們有發布這個高溫高氣溫作業熱危害的預防指引在2019年的1月的時候但是一樣面對這個極端期望我覺得這個指引已經不夠了光是這個指引絕對不夠然後氣象署也在規劃修氣象法針對高溫的部分規劃增列為災害性天氣"},{"start":695.326,"end":715.066,"text":"這是氣象署所以我不曉得勞動部是否應該針對高溫所產生的勞工的熱傷害然後配合氣象署的修法規劃有沒有更積極的因應作為請部長簡單說 跟委員說明其實關於這個高氣溫作業危害熱危害的預防指引其實我們在今年6月的時候再修了一個版本"},{"start":716.067,"end":733.953,"text":"那在這個版本裡面其實把包括有一些相關的工作的類別都放進來包括這些自營作業者包括舉牌工包括外送員我們都把它放進來那其實如果可以對應到現在職安法的修訂的話"},{"start":735.253,"end":761.506,"text":"包括現在大家很關注的外送員的熱傷害假設如果平台列者沒有提供協助的話甚至都是可以開罰的我們會直接上面法規並不是只是一個單純沒有牙齒的指引而已其實我們都把定出來那也包括我們其實在10月的時候應該是9月的時候我們其實有提出一個包括一些熱危害的預防的設備的一個補助的計畫包括風扇衣然後包括一些這個"},{"start":763.247,"end":788.245,"text":"預防的設備那其實我們都有提出一個補作計畫那的確這是大家會越來越重視的一個問題那我這個這一次從六月到現在其實我們也請治安署加強如果沒有很多的工地包括營造業戶外工作如果沒有做好高溫危害的話其實加強的稽查甚至要去確認改善的部分其實也都是在這幾個月裡面其實我們做了蠻多的突破"},{"start":789.005,"end":798.254,"text":"所以部長現在答覆就是說我們有在修的職營有那職安法都不需要再動職安法現在要修嗎要修嘛對不對還是要從法律的這方面來做修正職安法我們這次的修訂裡面應該是50條齁我記得是50條"},{"start":805.2,"end":823.288,"text":"那修訂完以後其實就可以對於一些剛剛在講到一些這些職營原本是準用可以變成試用試用以後我們其實可以直接來開發包括剛剛說對外送員或者是這些相關更多的業業這個工作者的部分對所以我們就慈安法的時候來討論了是OK好好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":827.358,"end":837.17,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員發言那本日會議詢答全部結束那委員徐欣盈 劉許廷 王育敏 蘇清泉"}]}},{"id":"163994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb628356fdde79b40f97819c05f3ca7f3b915dd0128aa318ab8eaa5b8daa13db02115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:31:26 - 12:43:36","影片長度":"00:12:10","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T12:31:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:43:36+08:00","duration":730,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.84471875,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.234718750000003,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.59721875,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.614093750000002,"end":22.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.74471875,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.36909375,"end":24.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.723468750000002,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.15784375,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.00534375,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.317218750000002,"end":37.189718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.712843750000005,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.43784375,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.48846875,"end":42.775343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.196593750000005,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.02721875,"end":51.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.88784375,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.02284375,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.45659375,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.51096875,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.23596875,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.63846875,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.27534375,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.37409375000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.02346875,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.41284375,"end":151.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.65284375000002,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.39909375000002,"end":157.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.04846875,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.64096875,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.97846875000002,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.74159375000002,"end":179.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.42471875,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.26409375,"end":193.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.54909375000003,"end":204.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.66534375,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.90096875,"end":217.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.88284375,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.16721875000002,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.23846875,"end":244.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.34284375000001,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.58659375000002,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.32846875,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.13221875,"end":290.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.74909375000004,"end":295.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.29284375000003,"end":299.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.14034375,"end":306.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.56534375,"end":306.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.58221875000004,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.59909375,"end":307.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.61596875000004,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.03784375000004,"end":319.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.72971875,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.61096875000004,"end":312.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.96409375,"end":334.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.06721875,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.02909375,"end":343.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.46659375,"end":367.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.51346875,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.06971875000005,"end":378.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.36846875000003,"end":378.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.40221875000003,"end":379.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.92534375,"end":380.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.22034375000004,"end":405.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.34284375000004,"end":409.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.82346875,"end":417.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.94034375,"end":419.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.64471875000004,"end":424.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.92659375000005,"end":427.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.28909375,"end":427.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.31846875,"end":428.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.73596875000004,"end":477.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.76596875,"end":491.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.66284375000004,"end":494.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.94096875,"end":500.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.37471875000006,"end":503.68221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.27284375000005,"end":508.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.27221875000004,"end":509.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.45784375000005,"end":509.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.79096875000005,"end":513.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.34784375000004,"end":510.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.58784375,"end":521.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.71346875,"end":520.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.5065937500001,"end":522.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.58221875,"end":529.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.2265937500001,"end":548.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.44721875,"end":554.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.0459687499999,"end":552.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.18909375,"end":558.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.28971875,"end":558.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.6059687500001,"end":561.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.2765937500001,"end":568.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.2078437499999,"end":574.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.0803437500001,"end":594.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.66784375,"end":598.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.4522187499999,"end":602.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.5234687500001,"end":602.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.39221875,"end":608.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.88096875,"end":609.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.2647187499999,"end":612.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.43721875,"end":613.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.4497187500001,"end":615.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.66471875,"end":616.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.5547187500001,"end":618.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.87096875,"end":619.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.27159375,"end":621.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.97596875,"end":622.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.35971875,"end":624.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.07659375,"end":630.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.5659687500001,"end":627.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.29096875,"end":636.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.5390937500001,"end":639.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.55971875,"end":644.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.7065937500001,"end":645.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.14096875,"end":648.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.55409375,"end":657.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.7847187500001,"end":658.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.8984687500001,"end":676.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.42346875,"end":675.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.6172187500001,"end":679.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.52409375,"end":693.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.98159375,"end":730.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.34784375,"end":726.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.12784375,"end":731.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.3303437500001,"end":730.4990937500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.91,"end":13.441,"text":"接下来请杨耀委员发言请蔡易瑜委员发言蔡易瑜委员蔡易瑜委员不在请杨耀委员发言"},{"start":19.466,"end":33.98,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題"},{"start":37.803,"end":61.913,"text":"因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播那因為很多勞工階層 廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對 然後也包括"},{"start":65.287,"end":82.979,"text":"包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法"},{"start":83.359,"end":99.421,"text":"對 當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上"},{"start":100.823,"end":129.398,"text":"那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴那這個是免費的宣傳而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長多加利用"},{"start":129.838,"end":150.229,"text":"其實公會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的公會其實整體的覆蓋率還不是那麼高所以有很多他比方說現在減半休息的企業他不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦 我是這樣子 我是"},{"start":151.806,"end":178.943,"text":"我覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論部長我問一下就是說九月底"},{"start":180.475,"end":209.507,"text":"美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤"},{"start":211.007,"end":237.475,"text":"遭受讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司"},{"start":238.439,"end":254.996,"text":"解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會"},{"start":257.13,"end":267.056,"text":"本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境"},{"start":270.448,"end":289.939,"text":"我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解"},{"start":291.966,"end":319.93,"text":"所以前面性的了解還沒有完成對 就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供前面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道"},{"start":320.69,"end":343.806,"text":"因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供"},{"start":344.537,"end":369.83,"text":"因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁過去勞動部這邊並沒有將"},{"start":373.46,"end":399.305,"text":"將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題"},{"start":402.245,"end":427.267,"text":"我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那"},{"start":429.81,"end":455.845,"text":"可是如果人力仲介我说部分的人力仲介没有很清楚的告诉企业现在这些关于移工的劳动人权的问题已经会变成你的营运的经济风险的时候这个风险就变成是企业在承担可是他对于风险的资讯就不了解所以我想我们在协助里面我觉得第一部分重要的事情是要让企业有能力去做这样的风险评估"},{"start":456.906,"end":477.314,"text":"企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步"},{"start":480.799,"end":492.778,"text":"那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣"},{"start":494.98,"end":520.979,"text":"台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫來去協助廠商指引要趕快出"},{"start":524.401,"end":545.389,"text":"包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動"},{"start":549.571,"end":574.045,"text":"指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求"},{"start":575.539,"end":602.126,"text":"跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟提呼指引的做法"},{"start":604.451,"end":627.749,"text":"那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說"},{"start":631.363,"end":652.141,"text":"聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的"},{"start":653.021,"end":667.675,"text":"那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程序做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工"},{"start":668.556,"end":693.454,"text":"那這林副委員工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來負擔這樣巨大就表示他們對 就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求"},{"start":695.31,"end":705.122,"text":"對 這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去"},{"start":705.54,"end":731.605,"text":"他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是一共零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟一共來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":907,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時31分）謝謝主席，我請一下部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我先問你一個問題，你們的媒宣費用大概管道是什麼？我剛剛沒有聽你們回復這個問題，因為媒宣費用一直在被檢討，我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見，可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人說明？"],["洪部長申翰：其實會包括廣播，因為很多勞工階層……"],["楊委員曜：廣播就包括在新聞裡面啦？"],["洪部長申翰：對，包括社群媒體、廣播媒體、平面媒體甚至還有一些戶外的媒體，比方在有些工業區透過廣告看板的方式，在人群比較集中的地方會看得到，所以我們其實是多元的方法。"],["楊委員曜：對，當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的，這個沒有錯，可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正用在實體上。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：那不代表我反對媒宣費用，只是要怎麼找到好一點的方式，譬如我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會，透過他們來幫忙宣導，因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴，當然這是免費的宣傳。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["楊委員曜：而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的，請部長多加利用。"],["洪部長申翰：其實工會的網絡我們這段時間都很積極的去接觸，不過因為臺灣的工會整體的覆蓋率還不是這麼高，比方現在減班休息的企業不一定是有工會的，所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式去觸及到這些需要知道的人。"],["楊委員曜：對啦，我覺得比較可惜的是，有一些政策是好的，我們要去推動，可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用，我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小，那很容易模糊政策的焦點，所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論。"],["洪部長申翰：了解。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我問一下，9月底美國CBP針對捷安特的製造商巨大公司在臺灣生產的自行車還有自行車零組件發出了暫扣令，他們發布新聞稿表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國，獲取不當的利潤，讓美國企業受到損失；經濟部有發新聞稿說，巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商，為了協助該公司維護其國際商譽，這個對企業來講很重要，他們將跟勞動部合作，協助巨大公司解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題，讓美方可以儘早撤銷暫扣令。我請教一下部長，巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會，本於保障勞工權益的立場，是不是部裡面已經有入廠去了解本勞和移工實際的勞動環境？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實在9月底的時候有進廠，也做了一些初步意見或者初步狀況的了解，的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關資料，比較能夠做整體性、更澈底的了解。"],["楊委員曜：所以全面性的了解還沒有完成？"],["洪部長申翰：對，就是因為還需要巨大公司提供一些更進一步的資料。"],["楊委員曜：因為他沒有提供全面性的資料，我們就很難提供他必要的協助，對不對？還是……"],["洪部長申翰：我們進廠的目的是希望協助巨大公司提出有效的改善方案……"],["楊委員曜：協助，對，我知道。"],["洪部長申翰：希望早日解除美方現在對他的一些質疑。"],["楊委員曜：我知道，因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助，看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成，所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始。"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實有給他初步的一些建議，但確實你說更完整部分的話，會需要他提供一些資料。"],["楊委員曜：因為巨大公司有聲明，他們從今年開始其實已經全面推動移工零招聘政策。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘、仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額負擔。請問一下，他這一次又被制裁，過去勞動部並沒有將移工零付費政策強制入法，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：目前沒有。"],["楊委員曜：沒有，現在美方要求我國的企業必須落實，那勞動部要怎麼輔導業者達到美方……這一件事情是發生在美國，也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題，我們要怎麼輔導業者達到譬如美國期盼的標準？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，的確臺灣現在有很多廠商把相關移工聘僱工作都交給人力仲介，其實部分的人力仲介怎麼做，有時這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：可是如果部分的人力仲介沒有很清楚地告訴企業，現在這些關於移工的勞動人權問題已經會變成你營運的經濟風險，這時風險就變成是企業在承擔，可是他對於風險的資訊就不了解。所以我們在協助裡面第一步很重要的事情是，要讓企業有能力做這樣的風險評估。企業有能力做風險評估，他才有辦法做風險管理或者是有降低風險的一些作法、方案；當企業都不知道自己的相關風險的時候，他就很難做相關的因應。所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業有能力做風險評估，我覺得這是重要的第一步。"],["楊委員曜：那怎麼協助？因為根據台灣勞工陣線跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告指出，臺灣實收資本額前五十大企業的製造廠商裡面，其實多數企業在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的，這部分你們要怎麼……"],["洪部長申翰：所以這部分我們要跟經濟部一起合作，我們會提出一個輔導或者包括指引的計畫來協助廠商。"],["楊委員曜：指引要趕快出來。"],["洪部長申翰：對，包括輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來，這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作。"],["楊委員曜：對。還有一個問題是剛剛部長提到仲介的部分，我們現在不是說多數的仲介，是說有部分仲介可能才是引發違反強迫勞動指標的始作俑者，這個部分怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為其實企業也要有能力管理仲介，比方……"],["楊委員曜：管理？可是他是不同的公司耶！"],["洪部長申翰：我說管理的意思，不是同一家公司去管理，而是比方履約管理，在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分，那怎麼去要求跟你簽約的仲介、有合約的仲介要做到哪些事情，儘量避免很多東西變成部分的仲介怎麼做、怎麼做，可是你都不知道，或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他。其實我們在這段時間看到，有一些我們的產業對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮，他也不太知道該怎麼做，這部分就是我們要輔導跟提出指引的作法。"],["楊委員曜：有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內，是在移工來源國？"],["洪部長申翰：也不是不可能。"],["楊委員曜：這個部分要怎麼解決？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個……"],["楊委員曜：因為這個部分就更困難了，剛剛講聘僱的企業要要求本國的人力仲介公司履約，這個就有難度了，那我們怎麼確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確海外部分的挑戰是會更多的，當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論，我們會在這個層次做雙邊的討論。但也的確我們看到陸陸續續有一些企業，比方一些科技業，他其實有用零付費的移工，他也有找仲介，只是這個仲介費或者招募費是由企業自己……"],["楊委員曜：企業吸收。"],["洪部長申翰：自己負擔。"],["楊委員曜：對，像巨大就表示他們……"],["洪部長申翰：對，是企業負擔，並不是說這裡面不能有人力仲介的服務，但是是由企業自己負擔。所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上跟產業裡面有一些不同的作法，這些作法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上的要求。"],["楊委員曜：對，這是一個很嚴肅、很嚴重的問題，其實也有一定的困難度，就是企業本身要怎麼去……就像巨大，他已經表示從今天開始他就已經是移工零付費了嘛！那怎麼跟相關的……特別是跟國內仲介公司怎麼去溝通、跟移工來源國怎麼溝通這件事情，這個都是重大的挑戰。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：請部裡面多努力，好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員的發言。","最後請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb625c173a61662c33a5819c05f3ca7f3b915dd0128aa318ab8e632dec9194285a125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"12:12:21 - 12:31:19","影片長度":"00:18:58","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T12:12:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:31:19+08:00","duration":1138,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.715968750000002,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.83409375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.762218750000002,"end":30.422843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.74346875,"end":70.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.86346875000001,"end":74.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.35284375,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.19221875000001,"end":80.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.08596875,"end":110.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.18284375,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.91096875000001,"end":93.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.24784375,"end":97.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.66909375,"end":101.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.89971875,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.32971875000001,"end":113.73471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.11721875,"end":126.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.04471875000002,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.17096875000001,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.78659375,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.76909375,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.64596875,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.10159375,"end":142.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.86471875,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.55221875,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.92346875,"end":147.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.05846875,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.37846875,"end":152.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.08721875,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.37409375000001,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.40784375,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.47534375,"end":167.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.27471875,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.03471875000002,"end":214.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.49159375000002,"end":211.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.50846875000002,"end":212.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.81159375000001,"end":216.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.16596875000002,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.37596875000003,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.61221875,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.10909375000003,"end":231.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.02846875,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.66909375,"end":243.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.06034375000002,"end":244.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.09409375,"end":248.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.60846875000001,"end":247.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.00909375,"end":248.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.35909375000003,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.65846875000003,"end":253.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.10096875000002,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.16721875,"end":267.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.44909375000003,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.87096875000003,"end":279.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.45971875000004,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.75909375000003,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.94034375,"end":291.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.71096875,"end":295.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.53346875,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.07721875000004,"end":298.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.09409375,"end":298.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.43159375000005,"end":307.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.95346875,"end":311.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.53534375000004,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.66159375,"end":311.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.91471875,"end":327.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.83721875000003,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.08534375,"end":331.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.51971875000004,"end":329.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.61221875,"end":333.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.58659375,"end":335.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.79284375000003,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.01221875000005,"end":336.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.44159375000004,"end":342.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.63534375,"end":357.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.14159375,"end":345.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.06971875000005,"end":346.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.35471875,"end":358.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.13096875,"end":364.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.32846875,"end":367.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.36159375,"end":383.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.92034375000003,"end":415.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.77534375000005,"end":394.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.15034375000005,"end":397.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.01909375,"end":400.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.32471875000005,"end":420.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.10034375000004,"end":422.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":420.42096875000004,"end":422.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.01971875000004,"end":423.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.03659375,"end":434.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.05346875000004,"end":423.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.25596875,"end":423.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.12471875,"end":426.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.46221875000003,"end":426.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.88346875,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.98034375000003,"end":432.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.03096875,"end":432.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.28409375,"end":432.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.66346875000005,"end":441.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.54471875,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.58659375,"end":442.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.18971875000005,"end":442.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.56096875000003,"end":448.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.60221875,"end":471.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.64471875000004,"end":496.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.39409375,"end":484.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.74659375000005,"end":497.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.79284375000003,"end":499.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.39596875,"end":502.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.85534375000003,"end":505.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.72409375,"end":511.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.66409375,"end":513.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.85784375,"end":513.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.95909375,"end":515.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.25409375,"end":544.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.77284375,"end":555.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.41659375,"end":568.9209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.6297187499999,"end":580.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.78409375,"end":581.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.1172187500001,"end":585.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.4922187500001,"end":588.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.81659375,"end":592.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.40659375,"end":594.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.45721875,"end":594.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.25034375,"end":596.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.38096875,"end":595.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.5578437500001,"end":599.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.8359687500001,"end":604.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.6497187500001,"end":603.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.21909375,"end":605.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.1640937500001,"end":611.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.31971875,"end":609.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.42909375,"end":611.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.15471875,"end":627.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.27534375,"end":623.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.6584687500001,"end":650.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.6015937500001,"end":641.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.0734687500001,"end":646.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":646.0903437500001,"end":646.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":647.8115937499999,"end":649.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.93346875,"end":664.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.5515937499999,"end":707.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":669.90096875,"end":670.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.4397187500001,"end":678.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.48471875,"end":687.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.0490937500001,"end":694.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.2509687500001,"end":698.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":705.65909375,"end":705.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":707.7009687500001,"end":708.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":708.1397187500002,"end":719.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.9015937500001,"end":721.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":721.79159375,"end":722.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":722.8547187500001,"end":737.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":738.12659375,"end":785.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.39346875,"end":787.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.5534687500001,"end":801.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.52596875,"end":821.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":820.3584687500002,"end":821.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":822.7040937500001,"end":823.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":822.9740937500001,"end":823.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.46346875,"end":825.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.6528437500001,"end":834.6515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":835.47846875,"end":844.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":843.57846875,"end":845.1140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":844.57409375,"end":847.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.7803437500002,"end":848.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":848.7084687500001,"end":851.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.03284375,"end":864.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":864.6553437500002,"end":866.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":867.2878437500001,"end":867.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.40096875,"end":874.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.99971875,"end":875.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":875.10096875,"end":878.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":878.77971875,"end":879.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":880.18034375,"end":883.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":883.43721875,"end":884.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.51721875,"end":884.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":884.95596875,"end":885.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.39471875,"end":886.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":886.47471875,"end":887.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":887.75721875,"end":887.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":887.8078437500001,"end":887.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":888.19596875,"end":890.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":890.32221875,"end":890.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":890.87909375,"end":896.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":898.5065937500001,"end":901.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":902.1515937500001,"end":922.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":923.1103437500001,"end":936.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":937.52159375,"end":959.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":959.5434687500001,"end":966.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":966.95159375,"end":972.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":972.85784375,"end":979.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":978.86534375,"end":980.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":979.18596875,"end":979.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":979.3547187500001,"end":979.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":979.99596875,"end":987.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":986.1384687500001,"end":987.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":987.06659375,"end":987.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":987.89346875,"end":1021.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":991.2178437500002,"end":991.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":991.82534375,"end":992.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1005.0047187500002,"end":1005.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1009.54409375,"end":1009.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1016.0747187500001,"end":1016.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1016.3953437500002,"end":1016.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1022.3015937500002,"end":1030.7390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1024.02284375,"end":1025.5753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1025.9803437500002,"end":1026.9590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1031.07659375,"end":1033.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1031.26221875,"end":1031.4478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1033.5740937500002,"end":1036.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1034.92409375,"end":1035.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1036.84784375,"end":1039.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1040.22284375,"end":1063.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1064.16846875,"end":1072.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1073.44971875,"end":1073.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1074.0740937500002,"end":1079.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1078.19159375,"end":1078.4278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1079.17034375,"end":1081.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1082.96721875,"end":1093.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1086.51096875,"end":1086.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1088.31659375,"end":1088.6878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1089.9365937500002,"end":1090.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1091.0840937500002,"end":1091.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1092.7715937500002,"end":1096.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1096.7034687500002,"end":1100.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1100.6184687500001,"end":1103.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1103.6053437500002,"end":1103.6222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1103.63909375,"end":1114.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1103.68971875,"end":1103.7234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1104.1790937500002,"end":1104.8709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1114.21971875,"end":1135.1109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1121.7459687500002,"end":1122.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1134.2672187500002,"end":1137.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1136.3597187500002,"end":1137.27096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.251,"end":8.92,"text":"謝謝主席 那我想請洪部長 謝謝請洪聖漢部長"},{"start":17.776,"end":32.06,"text":"部長我先用講的就好但您一定很熟悉因為我們勞動力發展署的訓練發展組他有統計發現呢您做的這個充電再出發計畫只有86家企業515人僅佔受影響人數的6.05%"},{"start":38.121,"end":65.607,"text":"企業辦訊更是僅有三家其實這個成效是不好的那因為成效不佳其實你是有放寬規定比如說不用限制最低的開班人數啊你回溯到8月1號還有上課時間也比較有彈性人數放寬但是合撥的金額如果是從7月開始申請應該還沒有執行數我們還看不到你放寬之後的執行數不知道你這邊有沒有"},{"start":66.327,"end":88.49,"text":"已經有的相關數據可以提供還是你要在一個月後才可以提供現在還沒有數據還沒出來所以你們檢討了過去成效不上的原因大概是哪幾個面向跟穩說明其實過去在減班休息的狀況其實主要在致應的就是我們這個充電再出發的計畫"},{"start":89.531,"end":110.169,"text":"但是因為這確實他會需要企業來辦訓那很多企業會說他其實現在是他很辛苦的時間那他還要特別來辦訓他可能不一定有能力或他不一定有這個意願來辦訓所以就會讓這個成效受影響這也是為什麼我們其實現在把對於減班休息勞工的經濟支持我們認為更應該更著重在"},{"start":111.17,"end":126.212,"text":"另外一個強化版的規劃定義措施上面那個是直接的可以給予薪資的差額補貼就是對於勞工的經濟支持我們是更大程度的是放在直接的薪資差額補貼所以你的意思是說這個也許你會考慮"},{"start":128.106,"end":151.382,"text":"放寬以後加時還是不好你就是移轉這可能不能移轉不是移轉但是你們會加強另外的直接補貼啦我們其實是直接的差補貼所以我們從五成拉到七成行業別也放寬其實我們現在是就是說我如果更直接講就是以強化版公安令措施為主那這個充電站出發對於經濟支持的效果為輔"},{"start":153.303,"end":167.291,"text":"好那下一個我想問這個減班休息就勢必要調整投保的薪資所以投保薪資一定會有所調降這是非常多這個人士就做HR的人他們反應的因為"},{"start":168.451,"end":191.359,"text":"其中包括申請勞保生育 老年給付 商帳給付等等都是去根據你領錢數個月的平均投保薪資來看但是減班休息是變相的影響到勞工的權益這個不在話下可是投保的薪資變相也懲罰到他們應有的這些給付的權益"},{"start":192.119,"end":214.097,"text":"那你有沒有辦法用最快的速度來試算因為現在剛很多委員都問了嘛大概是8500人目前是8500人所以這個試算起來應該不會很困難但對他們而言這些生育啊傷臟啊老年的給付也是很重要是不是也應該用特別預算來補足這部分金額"},{"start":216.314,"end":231.107,"text":"跟委員報告就是勞保的投保薪資他的內涵是勞基法的工資所以依照規定當然雇主要何時申報但是對於考量這一段期間的特殊的一個狀況勞資送讓他可以預定"},{"start":232.287,"end":252.098,"text":"就是原來的投保薪資申報不要調整勞保局不會去處罰他但是你有去統計嗎你有去統計有多少人他的薪資投保薪資可能會調降了受影響了因為這個必須你剛講的很清楚啊必須雙方是講好的是勞僱雙方一定對啊洪部長剛也說了"},{"start":254.181,"end":279.614,"text":"老闆這邊資方這邊也是覺得辛苦嗎所以他不一定會兩邊都講好按照原本的投保薪資啊其實就我們目前看到其實蠻多其實他基本上並沒有調降投保薪資因為這是一個比較短期的狀況那投保薪資大概是三個月其實做一次更新那所以其實目前看到是他其實並沒有很多要去反而在這段時間裡面去調降"},{"start":280.509,"end":291.163,"text":"那之後你會去追嗎我們不會特別去追這件事情但是我們基本上會希望雙方就議定不調降投保薪資就好了"},{"start":292.779,"end":318.858,"text":"那你們應該會去統計一下比例吧我們可以統計一下比例但是我說在做法上在做法上面其實就是雙方一定那我們不會特別要去在這個特別的時間還去做查然後說我們其實不會但你之後會不會有一個數據可以給我們有哪些人有受到影響我們可以去就是去比對那個減班休息的人數看看能不能比對的出來不然勞保局在"},{"start":319.538,"end":333.772,"text":"薪資調整這部分其實他是沒有原因的他沒有寫說他是因為減班休息或者是因為沒有加班等等的因素我知道你很難把它比對他下降的原因是不是因為減班休息這個我之後會再發文詢問你們"},{"start":335.874,"end":357.683,"text":"是再跟委員報告我們頭髮薪水調降或者是調整其實一年兩次就是2月跟8月我們不是每個月都讓雇主來調整好但剛剛有很多委員也是擔心這個會延長到很久嗎可能到第三季第四季甚至明年所以你本來就要有這個心理準備會遇到這件事情對好嗎好"},{"start":359.484,"end":383.656,"text":"再來就是洪部長也非常關心的彈性育嬰留庭照顧方案這個我跟你都是很贊同的啦可是呢現在因為勞健保的問題你必須要停保你必須要加保反反覆覆所以企業的人事行政申請或是公務員這都是一個挑戰那我知道你會出懶人包請問你這個懶人包的進度如何"},{"start":384.316,"end":403.706,"text":"我跟陳委員說明其實這個方案我們在9月提出其實這一段時間我們一直在跟包括我們的勞保局跟調評師包括保險師我們在盡力的把所有申請的程序給簡化甚至有些部分我們可以用自動的方式來處理那相關的書表能夠盡量簡化到最簡就最簡"},{"start":404.306,"end":433.405,"text":"那就是希望让比方说企业的HR他如果要来申请的时候其实可以在最简单的方式里面甚至我们会用可以手机线上就能够申请但是你的意思是说如果他请一天就是还是要一次吗我们可以让他累也就是你不用每一天就要来申请一次你甚至可以累计假设比方说因为我们现在是开放30天让大家一日来请我们其实是可以让大家"},{"start":435.126,"end":454.951,"text":"30天你請完30天再來跟我們申請一次都可以你不用每一次就要來就不用重複一樣的動作但現在有個比較特別的行業是女醫師跟我申請的女醫師這個您知道嗎因為對於女醫師來說她留庭就必須要辦理庭業的登記然後再去復職"},{"start":455.911,"end":471.552,"text":"因為他是特殊的有醫師執照的所以他在辦理流停的時候還要再跑醫師公會還要再跑地方衛生局那他如果做這種彈性暈暈流停的話他必須比一般的勞工還要再多跑兩個地方"},{"start":473.751,"end":497.353,"text":"因為職業登記應該是在衛福部嘛那我們來跟衛福部討論一下可是可是基本上我們會在我們目前可以就是我們勞動部全責的範圍內盡量把所有流程都最簡單我們最近也在跟人資在做相關的討論就是讓因為讓人資能夠用的盡量上手我覺得是我們在操作面上面我們讓大家用的"},{"start":497.913,"end":499.377,"text":"最簡單的方式那針對這個比較高規管的行業請問你們可以跟衛福部討論嗎"},{"start":505.988,"end":527.348,"text":"我們可以來跟衛福部討論啦對但是就看衛福部有沒有哪些部分可以再互相協調一下那就會後會再詢問您那關於這個這是很多很多很多網友他們的心得那如果說你們同仁有空的話也可以到這些群組啊或者是社團去看大家其實對於您的這個"},{"start":528.129,"end":543.775,"text":"育嬰 留職 停薪然後在規範子女三年前得請然後六個月可以領八成薪金都是正面看待非常正面看待可是你看一下所有實際上大家遇到問題是什麼遇到問題是三歲以前"},{"start":544.835,"end":568.44,"text":"大部分的人可能是在比較封閉或是在家或者是長輩照顧等等的他沒有那麼容易生病但是3歲反而是3歲到小學之間他只要班上有人腸病毒等等就一次會停課到5天反而大家會覺得這個利益非常的良好但如果你可以把這個歲數稍微往長一點"},{"start":569.82,"end":581.085,"text":"應用起來會更好那我也想問勞動部有沒有去調查生育後的雙親尤其是女性有多少比例是申請完育嬰留職停薪比例"},{"start":582.588,"end":604.13,"text":"我們應該是有數據但是現在可能數據沒有在手邊但是數據是不是你覺得不夠好所以你才會想要做彈性或者是說其實我們看到的情況是的確不一定很多的女性的勞動其實暈流田不是有女性可以申請男性也可以申請"},{"start":605.29,"end":627.273,"text":"那其實蠻多都跟我們反映希望能夠更彈性他不一定一定要請這麼長那剛剛委員其實提到這個三歲以上的部分因為我們其實在這一次的計劃的推出其實是在目前是因為是不用修法不用修法是三歲以下因為育嬰留庭基本上是在三歲以下才可以請"},{"start":628.7,"end":650.416,"text":"那我們是認為先讓我們先三歲以下先往前走那我覺得是狀況也包括很多的企業因為台灣中小企業真的蠻多的那調適到一個程度我們也不是不能考慮是不是要透過修法的方式那再把稅數再提高這個部分我們也持開放的態度因為我們是希望三歲以下能夠先行這樣子"},{"start":651.656,"end":673.823,"text":"因為我自己有提出我自己的版本我是希望這個可以拉到8歲但假使您願意的話當然只要是往後拉所有的家長都是正面的絕對大家一定會全力支持您其實在現在因為台灣正好小微企業比較多所以我們現在也在規劃一些讓企業可以協助他調適的做法"},{"start":674.983,"end":698.909,"text":"因為他的確需要調整尤其是一些排班性的企業那這是為什麼我們要盡量簡化他們的程序也包括他可能會在排班上可能他也需要一些新的排班的人資的制度來去做相關的因應可是有的社會社會企業他不一定都有很完整的HR的制度所以其實對於這些企業我們要給他協助是真的後面還有很多的工作要放在這個地方"},{"start":699.409,"end":719.188,"text":"那我們覺得說如果其實企業調適到一個程度後面假如要用修法的方式把稅數給拉高當然我們覺得這部分是可以討論的其實對企業而言他反而不會這麼短在這麼密集的時間接到就是一樣有生育的這個族群可能密集的請假你把他拉長反而大家會比較分散一點點"},{"start":720.149,"end":734.978,"text":"也有這樣子的看法好這邊大家不分朝野對於沒宣廢啊現在是蠻敏感的所以這個昨天在九樓是非常多委員質詢那我先跟部長報告2023年普發現金6000元這個東西你也有參與"},{"start":738.177,"end":755.084,"text":"政府是編列了1150的預算沒宣費最後只用了819但是達到了非常好的成效不管是偏鄉的啊境外返國的同胞啊各個族群都在多元的領取管道中有序的完成領取"},{"start":756.064,"end":785.084,"text":"那這次普發現金一萬這個特別預算沒宣費是高達1350元大家已經覺得很離譜囉但是我們來跟你剛你有講到這九大行業受衝擊的老公跟你比一下普發現金要執行的經費規模是你的337倍之多結果你的沒宣費是普發現金的1.4倍請問你這個是貴在什麼道理你可以跟我們講一下嗎"},{"start":785.784,"end":800.298,"text":"跟陳委員報告其實我們在下鄉包括跟很多勞工跟工會在座談的時候勞工工會都請我們一定要加強宣傳而且需要我們用更希望用更多資源包括今天我們的"},{"start":801.779,"end":821.919,"text":"这个寻答朝野委员也都跟我们说很多劳工还不知道一定要加强而且希望要不同方式来宣传因为很多劳工不一定他都会看新闻就是新闻上不一定都能够透过新闻上来得到这些讯息他们都跟我说希望我们宣传的方法要更多元因为劳工可能更多元不一定要更贵啊"},{"start":823.074,"end":851.495,"text":"是吧所以我們基本上我們是在希望說讓我們這個政策的成效因為就像剛剛前面幾位委員不管是執行黨的委員或在黨委員都希望我們加強宣傳加強宣傳不代表需要1900萬我不知道我方不方便跟你要你這1900萬的項目跟他的量可以可以我們想要看你的項目跟量還有你最後執行率可以當然你也不一定你也不一定會把它花完對吧"},{"start":852.385,"end":881.603,"text":"我們不是說一定要把它花完但是我們希望說這個宣傳的效果能夠更到位讓更多勞工知道他們可以來申請相關津貼也好補貼也好的權利我覺得這是最重要的目的那你大概多久可以給我們這個報告現在其實還在招標中但是你應該會有初步的項目跟費用啊會吧我們招標文件是公開的"},{"start":882.27,"end":901.113,"text":"其實招標文件是公開 項目跟費用 對招標文件應該是公開 最後一個問題我們可以再整理給委員的 對好 再啟動了天災臨時工的措施 我要問一下因為我們可以提高當地的經濟還有就業率 讓當地失業就啟動了天災臨時工的措施 這個非常好"},{"start":902.525,"end":921.755,"text":"這個是你9月25號開始啟動的當然就是災區花蓮自從0403地震很多這個天然的景觀啊太魯閣等等都還沒有修復所以觀光客當然到現在都還沒有復甦好現在又遇到了洪災所以他這個修復之路是慢慢"},{"start":923.651,"end":938.158,"text":"就是非常非常的久啦我們也不知道他們到什麼時候才可以重新恢復他的經濟那9月25號事辦到現在我想知道你們這個臨時工的媒合的計畫到底有多少人來申請"},{"start":938.898,"end":966.554,"text":"因為上次0403當時你也是委員許明春是部長大概才過了五天他就告訴我說有15個人來申請可是這次呢我發文給你們你們是回應我說試射資料都不可以說要跑完公文才可以我就覺得很奇怪為什麼許明春部長很快就在這樣子的場合回答我然後你們一定要跑完公文才可以告訴我你們的這個臨時公計畫到底有多少人申請"},{"start":967.154,"end":986.621,"text":"我跟委員說其實我昨天有說其實這一次的這個華家莎颱風目前應該是50人那已經上工是40幾人那其實這個數字我認為是比較少是不滿意吧當然是少的那我們其實有我們是主動的跟包括地方政府包括鄉鎮公所主動跟他說"},{"start":987.941,"end":1015.783,"text":"你可以來申請那只要你提出甚至我幫你寫你的提案計劃我都幫你寫我幫你服務到底那可是因為這一波確實現在比較多他們都還是比較多是因為有大量的志工所以對於這些需要勞動力來協助清理的他們目前其實比較多還是請志工在協助但是我們認為到接下面一個階段比方說開始重建的階段如果志工的數字在災區可能會下降的狀況下面可能會有更多虛工的單位他們會來跟我們申請"},{"start":1016.563,"end":1039.431,"text":"那這是針對華家莎那其實前一波包括在七月的時候台南的風災風災申請的不錯這個我知道大概是兩千多就五十這麼簡單的數字五十你沒有辦法回覆我你還要等公文跑我昨天其實就有說五十了那沒有告訴我們辦公室我們辦公室已經詢問了很久啦我昨天其實我們在詢答的時候就有說是五十"},{"start":1040.285,"end":1062.225,"text":"好那你有沒有考慮比如說再放寬他的身份我知道你現在已經把程序的繁瑣度降到最低了那你有沒有考慮再把基本工資稍微往上提然後或者是身份的限制他可能有一些雖然戶籍不是在災區但是他的工作是跟災區的上下有產業鏈有相關的他也受到了波及"},{"start":1062.765,"end":1080.9,"text":"他是不是也可以來這邊既然你都已經編了這也是我們編的公務預算其實我們就是想要幫助這些因為災害失業的人嘛對不對其實我們其實近期已經把他的適用範圍盡量擴大了然後當然比如怎麼擴大你可以告訴我嗎"},{"start":1083.635,"end":1099.964,"text":"報委員基本上如果他不是涉及在災區但是他是外地到災區工作是工作者也是可以對好不是不是只有那你覺得公司的這個天花板有辦法再往上提嗎我那時候其實我們是已經訂在要點裡面他就是"},{"start":1100.99,"end":1129.539,"text":"以這個最低工資為上限好那我會再固定好我會再固定跟你們追每個月你們的執行成效如何好嗎我們希望這筆公務預算已經編了就要幫助到最多人我們跟文說我們其實在零工這部分我們都是主動的我們不是被動等待人家申請而是主動告訴他說你可以來申請我甚至可以幫你然後甚至我們一直去問他有沒有這個需求可是確實現在災區的目前幾個部呃尤其地方政府狀況有點混亂他說"},{"start":1130.859,"end":1135.743,"text":"我現在在救災我現在可能沒有辦法一下去做這些事情我們期待你未來幾個月謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":810,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（12時12分）謝謝主席，我想請洪部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請洪申翰部長。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：我先用講的就好，但你一定很熟悉，因為勞動力發展署的訓練發展組統計發現，您做的充電再出發計畫只有86家企業、515人，僅占受影響人數的6.05%，企業辦訓更是僅有3家，其實這個成效是不好的。因為成效不佳，其實你是有放寬規定，比如不用限制最低的開班人數、回溯到8月1日，還有上課時間也比較有彈性、人數放寬，但是核撥的金額如果是從7月開始申請，應該還沒有執行數，還看不到放寬之後的執行數，不知道你這邊有沒有相關數據可以提供？還是要在1個月後才可以提供？"],["洪部長申翰：現在還沒有。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在還沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：數據還沒出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們檢討了過去成效不佳的原因，大概是哪幾個面向？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為過去在減班休息狀況下，其實主要在支應的就是充電再出發的計畫，但是這確實需要企業來辦訓，很多企業會說現在是它很辛苦的時間，如果還要特別來辦訓，它可能不一定有能力或不一定有意願來辦訓，所以就會讓這個成效受到影響。這也是為什麼現在把對於減班休息勞工的經濟支持，我們認為應該更著重在另外一個強化版的僱用安定措施上面，那個是可以直接給予薪資的差額補貼，就是對於勞工的經濟支持，我們是更大程度地直接放在薪資的差額補貼。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是這個部分也許考慮放寬以後，假使還是不好，就是移轉，這可能不能移轉……"],["洪部長申翰：不是移轉。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你們會加強另外的直接補貼。"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實是直接的差額補貼，所以從五成拉到七成，行業別也放寬，如果更直接講就是以強化版僱用安定措施為主，充電再出發對於經濟支持的效果為輔。"],["陳委員菁徽：下一個我想問的是，減班休息就勢必要調整投保的薪資，所以投保薪資一定會有所調降，這是非常多人事、就是做HR的人所反映的，因為其中包括申請勞保、生育、老年給付、喪葬給付等等，都是根據領前數個月的平均投保薪資來看。減班休息是變相的影響到勞工的權益，這個不在話下，可是投保的薪資也變相懲罰到他們應有的這些給付權益，你有沒有辦法用最快的速度來試算？因為剛剛很多委員都問了嘛！目前大概是8,500人，所以這個試算起來應該不會很困難，但對他們而言，這些生育、喪葬、老年的給付也是很重要，是不是也應該用特別預算來補足這些部分的金額？"],["陳司長美女：跟委員報告，勞保投保薪資的內涵是勞基法的工資，所以依照規定雇主要核實申報，但是考量這一段期間的特殊狀況，勞資雙方可以議定原來的投保薪資申報不要調整，勞保局不會去處罰他。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你有去統計嗎？統計有多少人的投保薪資可能被調降而受影響了？因為你剛剛講得很清楚啊，必須雙方是講好的。"],["陳司長美女：是，是勞雇雙方議定。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊，洪部長剛剛也說了，老闆資方這邊也是覺得辛苦嘛，所以他不一定會兩邊都講好按照原本的投保薪資。"],["洪部長申翰：其實就我們目前看到的，其實蠻多基本上並沒有調降投保薪資，因為這是一個比較短期的狀況，投保薪資大概是3個月做一次更新，所以目前看到的反而是並沒有很多在這段時間裡面調降。"],["陳委員菁徽：之後你會去追嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不會特別去追這件事情，但是我們基本上會希望雙方其實就議定不調降投保薪資就好了。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你們應該會去統計一下比例吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以統計一下比例，但是我說在作法上，其實就是雙方議定，我們不會特別在這個特別的時間還去查，我們其實不會。"],["陳委員菁徽：但你之後會不會有一個數據可以給我們，有哪些人受到影響？"],["陳司長美女：我們可以去比對減班休息的人數，看看能不能比對得出來，不然勞保局在薪資調整這部分其實是沒有原因的，沒有寫說它是因為減班休息，或者是因為沒有加班等等的因素。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，你很難比對它下降的原因是不是因為減班休息。"],["陳司長美女：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個我之後會再發文詢問你們。"],["陳司長美女：再跟委員報告，我們投保薪資的調降或者是調整其實一年2次，就是2月跟8月，我們不是每個月都讓雇主來調整。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，但剛剛有很多委員也是擔心這個會延長到很久，可能到第3季、第4季，甚至明年，所以你本來就要有這個心理準備會遇到這件事情，好嗎？","再來就是洪部長也非常關心的彈性育嬰留停照顧方案，這個我跟你都是很贊同的啦，可是現在因為勞健保的問題，必須要停保、必須要加保，反反覆覆，所以對於企業的人事行政申請或是公務員，這都是一個挑戰。我知道你會出懶人包，請問這個懶人包的進度如何？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟陳委員說明，其實這個方案我們在9月提出，這一段時間我們一直在跟勞保局、條平司、保險司盡力地把所有申請的程序給簡化，甚至有些部分可以用自動的方式來處理，相關的書表能夠儘量簡化到最簡就最簡，就是希望讓譬如說企業的HR要來申請的時候可以用最簡單的方式，甚至我們會用可以能夠手機線上申請。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你的意思是說，如果他請1天，就還是要重複1次嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以讓他累計，也就是他不用每天要來申請1次，譬如說，因為我們現在是開放30天，讓大家可以以「日」來請，他其實是可以請完30天，再來跟我們申請一次，不用每一次就要來。"],["陳委員菁徽：不用重複一樣的動作。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：但現在有個比較特別的行業，是女醫師跟我陳情的，女醫師這個部分您知道嗎？因為對於女醫師來說，他留停就必須要辦理停業登記，然後再去復職，因為他是特殊的、有醫師執照的，所以他在辦理留停的時候還要再跑醫師公會、還要再跑地方衛生局，如果做這種彈性育嬰留停的話，他必須比一般的勞工還要再多跑兩個地方。"],["洪部長申翰：因為執業登記應該是在衛福部，我們來跟衛福部討論一下，可是基本上，我們會在目前勞動部的權責範圍內儘量把所有流程都最簡化。我們最近也在跟人資在做相關的討論，就是讓人資能夠儘量用得上手，我覺得是在操作面上讓大家用最簡單的方式。"],["陳委員菁徽：針對這個比較高規管的行業，請問你們可以跟衛福部討論嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來跟衛福部討論，看有沒有哪些部分可以再互相協調一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：那就會後再詢問您。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：這頁是很多很多網友的心得，如果你們同仁有空的話也可以到這些群組或者是社團去看。其實對於您的育嬰留職停薪，規範子女3歲前得請，然後6個月可以領8成薪資補貼，大家都是正面看待、非常正面地看待。可是你看一下實際上大家遇到的問題是什麼？大部分3歲以前的小孩可能是在比較封閉的環境，或是在家、或者是長輩照顧等等，小孩沒有那麼容易生病；反而是3歲到小學之間，只要班上有人腸病毒等等，就會一次停課到5天。大家會覺得留停立意非常的良好，但如果你可以把歲數稍微往長一點，應用起來會更好。我想問勞動部有沒有去調查生育後的雙親，尤其是女性，有多少比例是申請完育嬰留職停薪？"],["洪部長申翰：我們應該是有數據，但是現在可能數據沒有在手邊。"],["陳委員菁徽：數據是不是你覺得不夠好，所以你才會想要做彈性，或者是說……"],["洪部長申翰：其實依我們看到的情況，的確不一定很多的女性……其實育嬰留停不是只有女性可以申請，男性也可以申請，其實蠻多人都跟我們反映希望能夠更彈性，他不一定要請這麼長。剛剛委員提到3歲以上的部分，其實在這一次計畫的推出，目前是不用修法，因為育嬰留停基本上是在3歲以下才可以請。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["洪部長申翰：我們是認為讓3歲以下先往前走，我覺得視狀況，因為臺灣中小企業真的蠻多的，讓很多企業調適到一個程度，我們也不是不能考慮是不是要透過修法的方式再把歲數提高，這個部分我們也持開放的態度，可是我們是希望3歲以下能夠先行。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為我有提出我自己的版本，我是希望可以拉到8歲，但假使您願意的話，當然只要是往後拉，所有的家長都是正面的，大家絕對會全力支持你。"],["洪部長申翰：因為臺灣小微企業比較多，所以我們現在也在規劃一些可以協助企業調適的作法，因為它的確需要調適，尤其是一些排班性的企業，這就是為什麼我們要儘量簡化他們的程序，也包括可能會在排班上需要一些新的排班人資制度來做相關的因應，可是有時候小微企業不一定都有很完整的HR制度，所以其實對於這些企業我們要給它協助，後面真的還有很多工作要放在這個地方，我們覺得如果企業調適到一個程度，後面假如要用修法的方式把歲數給拉高，當然我們覺得這部分是可以討論的。"],["陳委員菁徽：其實對企業而言，反而不會在這麼短、這麼密集的時間接到同樣生育的族群密集地請假，你拉長，反而大家會比較分散一點點。"],["洪部長申翰：也有這樣子的看法。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。現在大家不分朝野對於媒宣費是蠻敏感的，所以昨天在9樓非常多委員質詢。我先跟部長報告，2023年普發現金6,000元，這個部分你也有參與，政府編列了1,150萬的媒宣費預算，最後只用了819萬，但是達到了非常好的成效，不管是偏鄉的、境外返國的同胞，各個族群都在多元的領取管道中有序地完成領取。","這次普發現金1萬，特別預算媒宣費高達1,350萬，大家已經覺得很離譜了，但是我們跟你剛剛講到九大行業受衝擊的勞工來比一下，普發現金要執行的經費規模是你的337倍之多，結果你的媒宣費是普發現金的1.4倍，請問你這個是貴在什麼道理，可以跟我們講一下嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員報告，其實我們下鄉跟很多勞工、工會在座談的時候，勞工、工會都請我們一定要加強宣傳，而且需要我們用更多資源，包括今天我們的詢答，朝野委員也都跟我們說很多勞工還不知道，一定要加強，而且希望用不同方式來宣傳，因為很多勞工不一定都會看新聞，就是不一定都能夠透過新聞來得到這些訊息，他們都跟我說，希望我們宣傳的方法要更多元，因為勞工可能……"],["陳委員菁徽：更多元不一定要更貴啊！是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們基本上是希望我們政策的成效……就像剛才前面幾位委員，不管是執政黨的委員或在野黨的委員，都希望我們加強宣傳。"],["陳委員菁徽：加強宣傳不代表需要1,900萬，我不知道我方不方便跟你要這1,900萬的項目跟它的量。"],["洪部長申翰：可以，沒有問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們想要看你的項目跟量，還有最後的執行率。"],["洪部長申翰：可以，當然。"],["陳委員菁徽：你也不一定會把它花完，對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不是說一定要把它花完，但是我們希望這個宣傳的效果能夠更到位，讓更多勞工知道他們有申請相關津貼或補貼的權利，我覺得這是最重要的目的。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你大概多久可以給我們這個報告？"],["洪部長申翰：現在其實還在招標中。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你應該會有初步的項目跟費用啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們的招標文件是公開的。"],["陳委員菁徽：項目跟費用？"],["洪部長申翰：對，招標文件應該是公開的，我們可以再整理給委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後還有一個問題我要問一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：這個是你9月25號開始啟動的，當然就是災區，花蓮自從0403地震，很多天然景觀如太魯閣等等都還沒有修復，所以觀光當然到現在都還沒有復甦，好，現在又遇到了洪災，所以它這個修復之路就是非常、非常的久，我們也不知道要到什麼時候才可以重新恢復它的經濟。那9月25號試辦到現在，我也想知道你們這個臨時工的媒合計畫到底有多少人來申請了？因為上次0403，當時你也是委員，許銘春是部長，大概才過了5天，他就告訴我說有15個人來申請；可是這次我發文給你們，你們回應我說事涉資料，都不可以說，要跑完公文才可以。我就覺得很奇怪，為什麼許銘春部長很快就在這樣子的場合回答我，然後你們一定要跑完公文，才可以告訴我你們這個臨時工計畫到底有多少人申請？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說，其實我昨天有說，這一次的樺加沙颱風目前應該是50人，已經上工的是四十幾人，這個數字我認為是比較少。"],["陳委員菁徽：你不滿意吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是主動的跟地方政府、鄉鎮公所說，你可以來申請，只要你提出，甚至我可以幫你寫你的提案計畫，幫你服務到底，可是因為這一波因為有大量的志工，所以這些需要勞動力協助清理的目前其實還是請志工協助的比較多。但是我們認為到下面一個階段，比方說開始重建的階段，志工在災區可能會減少，可能會有更多需工的單位來跟我們申請，這是針對樺加沙。前一波包括在7月的時候，臺南的風災……"],["陳委員菁徽：風災申請得不錯我知道。"],["洪部長申翰：大概就兩千多。"],["陳委員菁徽：就50這麼簡單的數字，你沒有辦法回復我，你還要等公文跑？"],["洪部長申翰：我昨天其實就有說50了。"],["陳委員菁徽：但沒有告訴我們辦公室，我們辦公室已經詢問了很久。"],["洪部長申翰：我昨天其實在詢答的時候就有說是50。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那你有沒有考慮比如再放寬他的身分？我知道你現在已經把程序的繁瑣度降到最低了，那你有沒有考慮再把基本工資稍微往上提，或者是放寬身分的限制？可能有一些人雖然戶籍不在災區，但是他的工作是跟災區的上、下游產業鏈相關，他也受到了波及，他是不是也可以來這邊？既然你都已經編了，這也是我們編的公務預算，其實我們就是想要幫助這些因為災害失業的人嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們近期已經把它的適用範圍儘量擴大了，然後當然……"],["陳委員菁徽：比如怎麼擴大，你可以告訴我嗎？"],["黃署長齡玉：報告委員，基本上如果他不是設籍在災區，但是他是外地到災區工作的工作者也是。"],["陳委員菁徽：可以？"],["黃署長齡玉：對，不是只有……"],["陳委員菁徽：那你覺得工資的天花板有辦法再往上提嗎？"],["黃署長齡玉：委員，那時候其實我們是已經訂在要點裡面，它就是以最低工資為上限，我們可以再檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我會再固定追你們每個月的執行成效如何，好嗎？我們希望這筆公務預算已經編了，就要幫助到最多人。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說，其實在零工這部分，我們都是主動的，不是被動等待人家來申請，而是主動告訴他說，你可以來申請，我甚至可以幫你，然後我們一直去問他有沒有這個需求，可是現在災區、尤其地方政府的狀況確實有點混亂，他說我現在在救災，可能沒有辦法一下子去做這些事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那沒關係，我們期待你未來幾個月。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員發言。","接下來請蔡易餘委員發言，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62fc89a533fa2fee9f819c05f3ca7f3b915dd0128aa318ab8e60fe344e844efea75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:01:30 - 12:12:11","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T12:01:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:12:11+08:00","duration":641,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.578468750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.29971875,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.404093750000001,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.09596875,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.457843750000002,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.515968750000003,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.15221875,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.02096875,"end":111.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.09346875000001,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.86471875000001,"end":119.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.17596875000001,"end":125.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.06534375,"end":149.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.32409375,"end":149.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.45471875,"end":171.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.49971875,"end":159.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.07159375,"end":204.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.96096875,"end":218.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.73096875000002,"end":257.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.31971875,"end":269.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.77784375000005,"end":271.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.65096875,"end":291.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.52971875000003,"end":295.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.93846875,"end":295.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.10284375000003,"end":297.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.19971875000005,"end":297.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.67221875,"end":298.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.26284375,"end":302.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.82784375,"end":301.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.34659375,"end":305.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.87346875000003,"end":310.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.68284375,"end":314.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.69471875,"end":325.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.52909375,"end":323.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.37284375,"end":323.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.51596875,"end":340.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.60284375000003,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.82596875,"end":346.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.08659375,"end":350.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.14971875000003,"end":349.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.68096875000003,"end":362.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.06471875,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.05534375,"end":357.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.99534375,"end":364.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.59846875000005,"end":370.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.88846875,"end":385.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.75596875,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.25346875,"end":400.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.20034375,"end":419.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.04971875,"end":435.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.04721875,"end":450.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.18409375000005,"end":476.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.03659375,"end":518.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5322187500001,"end":532.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.70721875,"end":560.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.27159375,"end":539.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.96721875,"end":543.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.87784375,"end":548.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.96034375,"end":565.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.1497187500001,"end":563.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.5247187500001,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.2878437500001,"end":570.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.1315937500001,"end":607.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.00846875,"end":576.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.10534375,"end":577.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.6240937499999,"end":579.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.91034375,"end":583.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.24596875,"end":595.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.57784375,"end":604.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.32846875,"end":607.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.93596875,"end":627.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.9328437500001,"end":631.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.3203437500001,"end":639.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.0365937500001,"end":639.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.3234687500001,"end":639.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.96471875,"end":640.4709687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.914,"end":9.136,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長有請洪森漢部長"},{"start":17.462,"end":43.732,"text":"今天大家關心就是因應關稅的這個議題那造成這個這幾個月減班休息的人數一直在增加那我想請教就是說部長你應該也有到地方去訪視啦或者是去參訪那也看到現在很多傳產業者確實在這幾個月遇到了一些困難那尤其是台中彰化南投這部分"},{"start":44.472,"end":72.519,"text":"在9月份的時候這是看一個統計就是說在9月份台中彰化南投超過4000名的勞工被迫放無薪假我們也看到就是說你們在勞動部的統計就是9月份減班休息的人數從原本的7300多一直到10月份是已經突破到8500"},{"start":74.159,"end":95.117,"text":"那中張頭的這個部分就已經超過4000人那因為中張頭這個產業會比較特殊有的是工具機有的是金屬製造業腳踏車零件或水五金這個真的算是傳產非常多的一個地方那確實有碰到這樣的一個特殊的地區"},{"start":97.618,"end":111.526,"text":"這個特定的地區然後有這樣子特別嚴重的一個狀況那我不知道說勞動部針對這個特定的地區有比較嚴重的這個狀況是不是有不一樣的一個做法或者是全國是一致的"},{"start":114.057,"end":142.387,"text":"確實現在因為中央這邊我們是訂定一個全國性的政策但是我們的確有看到的確中部目前假班休息的數字是比較多的所以這也是為什麼其實上週那我自己也親自到中部那來跟我們很多的傳產的業者那包括這些工協會那一起來座談我們也是希望對於尤其是中部的這些業者"},{"start":143.107,"end":171.236,"text":"他們遇到的問題那在我們所能夠職長的跟勞工相關的部分來多給一些協助好那我們希望就是說針對中部地區比較嚴重的這個狀況我覺得也許你們的這個力道應該可以再加強一點因為就是一個變成一個聚落的特殊的這樣一個狀況因為我在這幾天也碰到就是因為減班休息那這個中高齡的"},{"start":172.236,"end":190.768,"text":"女性这个是我碰到连续碰到两位就刚好那一天早上连续碰到两位都差不多60出差不多60几岁的妈妈那他会说他们公司就因为这个关税的问题所以他们目前是在放无薪假"},{"start":191.428,"end":217.988,"text":"那像這樣子的話當然就是說勞動部針對這個減班休息的這些勞工有一些因應的措施或者是這個訓練或是參加訓練可能有一些這個補助那針對這個中高齡的部分其實他們覺得說勞動部這樣的一個政策對他們來講沒有很大的幫助因為他們急需要的可能就是需要"},{"start":218.809,"end":235.869,"text":"这个收入所以他们从原本的这个工厂那因为减班休息那后来他们又去找了可能就是这个临时工可能就找了临时的这样的一个工作所以我也希望就是说针对"},{"start":236.931,"end":253.753,"text":"不一定就是說你們現在提出來的這政策當然是很好就是說薪資差額的補貼或者是再充電的這個計畫我覺得這個是很好可是可能針對中高齡的這個部分也許他覺得說這個對他來講沒有多大的一個幫助"},{"start":254.173,"end":269.333,"text":"所以針對中高齡的這樣的一個這個失業的勞工因為減班休息失業的勞工後面他可能還需要再找一些比較臨時的一個工作那針對這部分有沒有比較及時的一個協助"},{"start":269.83,"end":297.21,"text":"跟荒原說明第一個如果是老公他如果其實在減班休息時間他其實假設他是出現薪資上的落差因為減班嘛薪資落差的話那這部分其實他不一定要參加訓練那他是可以直接用強化版的安定措施那我們來補他這個差額的七成那這個是誰要申請是企業要幫他申請或他自己他自己也可以申請他自己申請就可以對好"},{"start":298.339,"end":314.17,"text":"他自己又可以申請 企業幫他申請也很好也可以那勞工也可以自己申請好 那我覺得像這個的話你們可能他如果今天是可能找了一個是一個臨時的一個工作找一個是臨時的工作那這個他也可以自己申請嗎"},{"start":316.291,"end":330.398,"text":"我們其實是針對他原本的工業原本比方說他如果薪水4萬2現在因為減班假設是3萬 假設3萬但是因為減班休息還是要有最基本的最低工資所以比方說4萬2到"},{"start":331.579,"end":348.894,"text":"三萬那這一萬二的差額我們會補貼七成一萬二的七成所以他只要來申請我們就會和給他我們就會他自己他自己只要上網申請或者是直接到你們的這個分數就業中心或分數來申請我們就會都可以對我們"},{"start":349.835,"end":370.62,"text":"到分署去申請也都可以對沒錯那我希望就是說把這個訊息應該也要把它讓更多的勞工知道因為他們有的人會覺得說那我是不是要透過企業幫他申請那有的企業他不一定要聘這樣的一個勞工是所以現在我們是直接是勞工可以申請所以這也是為什麼我們確實在幾個工會的方式"},{"start":372.42,"end":398.555,"text":"都跟我們強調希望我們擴大宣傳因為像剛剛講我們其實已經把申請的程序弄到最簡便那可是的確還是有一些勞工朋友不一定都知道那這個在宣傳上面我們會再更努力是好那其實我剛剛講的這個中部地區可能算是一個重災區那另外除了就是說因為關稅的問題其實國際的情勢也會影響到這些這個傳產"},{"start":401.437,"end":419.066,"text":"这些公司因为我就碰到一位这个企业他们原本是做工具机的那因为整个关税的议题他原本可能就卖到香港卖到这个新加坡那这个工具机又被转卖到伊朗"},{"start":420.126,"end":433.31,"text":"那就被美國這邊制裁因為列入黑名單那整個公司所有的帳戶全部被凍結那造成說他的勞工也因為這樣子因為公司被凍結所有的帳戶被凍結之後也沒辦法接單"},{"start":438.092,"end":460.118,"text":"那造成說這些勞工就因為這樣子也失業所以類似這樣的一個狀況不論是因為關稅的問題或者是因為國際情勢造成的勞工的失業我覺得說這個可能也是我們勞動部需要去關心的部分因為不只是因為關稅的問題國際情勢也會影響到我們這些企業"},{"start":465.799,"end":482.965,"text":"所以我在這邊也要再提醒就是說勞動部針對這部分一方面我們要去做宣傳讓更多的勞工知道要不然他會覺得這個公司因為這個接不到單尤其是原本他們4月份因為關稅的問題"},{"start":484.386,"end":509.162,"text":"那可能在期待可能第三季或第四季是不是可以接單可不可以接到這個國外的訂單可是我們第三季現在第三季整個財報出來之後發現可能訂單也沒有想像中的多或者是也沒有訂單的這樣的一個狀況那就像剛剛部長講的也許在你們在下個月又在統計的時候"},{"start":510.863,"end":531.959,"text":"減班休息的這個受到影響這些勞工的數字也許會比現在8500名還要再多人所以我希望就是說勞動部針對這一部分不論是因為關稅的議題或者是因為受到國際情勢的這個影響我覺得應該也要還要再有一個比較更積極的一個方式"},{"start":532.779,"end":552.007,"text":"跟委員說明其實我們現在比方說剛剛想的薪資差補貼我們並沒有限制他只受到關稅影響其實我們把範圍甚至拉到現在有很多廠商遇到匯率的問題或者是所以我們整體是把它包在一個因應國際情勢的不確定性所造成的影響我們都會把它放到現在在我們那個"},{"start":553.588,"end":570.528,"text":"這個薪資差額補貼的部分所以並不是只去只鎖定或者是只限只有因為關稅的影響所以你原本說擴大到九大製造業那現在譬如說九大製造業以外的這些勞工如果受到影響的話也是可以嗎還是可以"},{"start":571.309,"end":588.752,"text":"目前我們其實薪資差的補貼是目前公告是九大行業那現在都是製造業那但是行業別要不要更多的放寬我們其實也可以滾動的來檢討可是的確現在因為這個裡面我們會因為是用特別預算那也是"},{"start":590.514,"end":606.536,"text":"這個強化版的部分我們是特別針對這個國際的情勢所以如果有一些比方說有些行業他其實跟關稅的影響沒有那麼沒有大的相關他可能他只是自己內部經營的問題那這就不在我們薪資差補貼的範圍裡面"},{"start":608.015,"end":626.873,"text":"好那我希望就是說因為確實現在第三劑第四劑也許會更嚴重就是說減半休息的這部分也許會更嚴重那仲裁區的話就是中部地區傳產傳產的這些區域可能會比較嚴重那我也希望就是說部長既然你都有下鄉區"},{"start":628.034,"end":638.745,"text":"去了解的話也許就是說滾動式的檢討可以讓更多的勞工能夠受益這個應該也是我們勞動部最原本的一個美意"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時1分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請洪申翰部長。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天大家關心因應關稅這個議題，造成這幾個月減班休息的人數一直在增加，我想請教部長，你應該有到地方去訪視或者是去參訪，也看到現在很多傳產業者確實在這幾個月遇到了一些困難，尤其是臺中、彰化、南投。我有看到一個統計，在9月份的時候，臺中、彰化、南投有超過4,000名勞工被迫放無薪假；我們也看到勞動部的統計，9月份減班休息的人數從原本的七千三百多人，一直到10月份已經突破8,500人，中彰投的這個部分就已經超過4,000人。因為中彰投的產業比較特殊，有的是工具機，有的是金屬製造業、腳踏車零件或水五金，真的算是傳產非常多的地方，確實有碰到這樣一個特殊的地區、特定的地區有這樣特別嚴重的狀況，不知道勞動部針對特定地區有比較嚴重的狀況是不是有不一樣的作法？或者全國是一致的？"],["洪部長申翰：確實現在中央是訂定一個全國性的政策，但是我們的確有看到中部目前減班休息的數字是比較多的，所以這也是為什麼上週我自己也親自到中部，跟我們很多傳產業者、包括這些公協會一起來座談，我們尤其希望對於中部這些業者所遇到的問題，在我們所職掌的、跟勞工相關的部分來多給一些協助。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。針對中部地區比較嚴重的狀況，我覺得你們的力道應該可以再加強一點，因為就是變成一個聚落的特殊狀況。這幾天我也有碰到因為減班休息的中高齡女性，連續碰到兩位，剛好那天早上連續碰到兩位，都差不多是六十多、六十幾歲的媽媽，他說他們公司因為這個關稅的問題，所以他們目前是在放無薪假。當然勞動部針對減班休息的這些勞工有一些因應的措施或者是訓練，或是參加訓練可能有一些補助，但針對中高齡的部分，其實他們覺得勞動部這樣的政策對他們來講沒有很大的幫助，因為他們極需要的可能就是這個收入，所以他們原本的工廠減班休息，後來他們又去找了一個臨時的工作。你們現在提出來的政策當然是很好，就是薪資差額補貼，或者是再充電計畫，我覺得這個是很好，可是針對中高齡這個部分，也許他覺得這個對他來講沒有多大的幫助，所以針對中高齡的失業勞工、因為減班休息失業的勞工，後面他可能還需要再找一些比較臨時的工作，針對這部分有沒有比較即時的協助？"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明，第一個，如果勞工在減班休息期間出現薪資上的落差，這部分其實他不一定要參加訓練，是可以直接用強化版的僱用安定措施，我們來補他差額的七成。"],["黃委員秀芳：這個部分是誰要申請？是企業要幫他申請或他自己……"],["洪部長申翰：他自己也可以申請。"],["黃委員秀芳：他自己申請就可以？"],["洪部長申翰：對，他自己就可以申請，企業幫他申請也很好、也可以，勞工也可以自己申請。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，如果他今天可能是找了一個臨時的工作，也可以自己申請嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實是針對他原本的工作，比方說，如果他的薪水4萬2,000，現在因為減班，假設是3萬……"],["黃委員秀芳：他就放無薪假嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：假設是3萬，但是因為減班休息還是要有最基本的最低工資，所以比方說4萬2,000到3萬，這1萬2,000的差額，我們會補貼七成，1萬2,000的七成，所以他只要來申請，我們就會核給他，我們就會……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以他自己只要上網申請，或者是直接到你們的……"],["洪部長申翰：就業中心或分署，我們就會……"],["黃委員秀芳：到就業中心或分署去申請都可以。"],["洪部長申翰：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：我希望、應該也要把這個訊息讓更多的勞工知道。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為有的會覺得是不是要透過企業幫他申請，有的企業不一定要聘這樣的勞工。"],["洪部長申翰：是，所以現在勞工是可以直接申請，這也是為什麼在幾個工會的訪視時，都跟我們強調希望擴大宣傳，因為像剛才講的我們已經把申請的程序弄到最簡便，可是的確還是有一些勞工朋友不一定知道，在宣傳上面我們會再更努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我剛剛講的中部地區可能算是一個重災區，除了因為關稅的問題，國際的情勢也會影響到這些傳產公司。我就碰到一個原本是做工具機的企業，因為關稅的議題，原本它可能賣到香港、賣到新加坡，這個工具機又被轉賣到伊朗而被美國制裁，因為列入黑名單，整個公司所有的帳戶全部被凍結，之後也沒辦法接單，造成勞工就因為這樣子失業。類似這樣的狀況，不論是因為關稅的問題，或者是因為國際情勢造成勞工的失業，我覺得這也是勞動部需要去關心的部分。","因為不只是關稅的問題，國際情勢也會影響到這些企業，所以我在這邊也要再提醒，勞動部針對這部分，一方面要去宣傳，讓更多的勞工知道。要不然他會覺得這個公司因為接不到單，尤其是原本4月份因為關稅的問題，可能在期待第三季或第四季是不是可以接單，可不可以接到國外的訂單？可是現在第三季整個財報出來之後發現，訂單可能也沒有想像中的多，或者是沒有訂單的狀況。就像剛剛部長講的，也許你們下個月又再統計的時候，受到減班休息影響的勞工數字也許會比現在的8,500名還要再多。我希望勞動部針對這部分，不論是因為關稅的議題，或者是因為受到國際情勢的影響，應該也還要再有一個更積極的方式。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，剛才講的薪資差額補貼，並沒有限制只受到關稅影響的部分，我們把範圍甚至拉到如現在有很多廠遇到的匯率問題或者是……所以整體是把它包在一個因應國際情勢的不確定性所造成的影響，我們都會把它放到薪資差額補貼的部分，所以並不是只鎖定或者是只限關稅的影響……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你原本說擴大到九大製造業。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：九大製造業以外的這些勞工，如果受到影響的話，也是可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：薪資差額補貼部分，目前是公告九大行業，現在都是製造業，至於行業別要不要有更多的放寬，其實也是可以滾動來檢討。現在因為是用特別預算，強化版的部分我們特別針對國際情勢，所以如果有一些行業其實跟關稅的影響沒有那麼大的相關，可能它只是自己內部經營的問題，這就不在薪資差額補貼的範圍裡面。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為第三季、第四季也許會更嚴重，就是減班休息的部分也許會更嚴重，重災區就是中部地區，傳產的區域可能會比較嚴重。我也希望部長既然有下鄉去瞭解，也許滾動式的檢討可以讓更多的勞工能夠受益，這個應該也是勞動部最原本的美意，好不好？。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然，謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員發言。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb620b9ff9e258e86e98119d4e8153da54ef5dd0128aa318ab8e10497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:10:57 - 12:18:22","影片長度":"00:07:25","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T12:10:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:18:22+08:00","duration":445,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":3.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.81909375,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.342218750000001,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.77221875,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.750968750000002,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.68721875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.59284375,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.739093750000002,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.492843750000006,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.04471875,"end":51.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.461593750000006,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.182218750000004,"end":62.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.93659375000001,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.97034375000001,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.69159375000001,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.38659375,"end":78.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.16221875000001,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.95096875,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.51534375,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.18596875,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.98284375,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.89346875000001,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.09034375,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.76534375,"end":109.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.44409375000001,"end":111.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.93346875,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.35159375,"end":135.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.52034375,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.14909375000002,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.48909375000002,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.29471875000002,"end":183.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.50846875000002,"end":187.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.88784375,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.95909375000002,"end":190.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.65471875,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.68846875,"end":195.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.78534375,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.96159375000002,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.02909375000002,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.18096875,"end":201.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.75346875000002,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.33096875,"end":213.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.76784375000003,"end":226.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.35721875000002,"end":246.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.47909375,"end":238.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.48596875,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.53659375,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.02596875,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.82596875,"end":269.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.24784375,"end":259.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.81159375000004,"end":299.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.93346875000003,"end":353.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.96721875000003,"end":367.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.54284375000003,"end":372.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.08659375,"end":417.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.45784375000005,"end":373.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.92346875000004,"end":423.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.82971875000004,"end":428.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.50409375000004,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.17471875,"end":430.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.44034375,"end":434.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.34284375000004,"end":443.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.97096875000005,"end":437.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.98784375,"end":438.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.97034375000004,"end":442.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.30346875000004,"end":443.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.62409375000004,"end":444.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.97409375,"end":445.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.86846875000003,"end":445.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":7.557,"text":"我們接著就請葉元芝委員進行詢答 時間五分鐘請秘書長還有權敘部請秘書長 權敘部"},{"start":15.156,"end":30.225,"text":"現在考試院就是說10月10號開始要針對公務人員新增三天的身心調適假這個身心調適假講的目標非常遠大說是要呼應健康台灣的願景健康台灣是賴總統提出來的"},{"start":32.326,"end":56.739,"text":"呼應這個願景所以要推出這三天的身心調試假然後它的內容就是公務人員每年可以請三天病毒試駕計算然後以小時計免醫療證明機關不得那個主管不得拒絕應該是這樣沒錯吧是的那我不知道秘書長你有沒有去跟基層公務人員聊過這個身心調試假你覺得他們對這個身心調試假會有期待呢還是覺得可有可無"},{"start":58.428,"end":87.823,"text":"你有沒有去了解一下基層公務人員的心聲因為今天才實施嘛因為願景很紅 沒有啦 今天才實施沒錯啦但是公務人員可以預期嘛這個價對他來說是有用沒有用嘛過去在討論的時候有請一些 跟一些機關討論他們很期待嗎 這三天應該是說這個價本身他們覺得事實上是對調節身心來講有需要的時候 當然是有幫忙啊"},{"start":88.243,"end":107.007,"text":"那部長我請問一下你現在是病度試駕七天對不對公務人員一年請七天試駕是不用扣薪的嘛對吧你現在是把七天試駕說如果你有請三天身心調試駕的話那你還有四天試駕是可以不用扣薪沒錯吧那對他來說有什麼差他請試駕就好了"},{"start":110.629,"end":121.899,"text":"一般來說購物人員請假啦大部分 我遇到很多人其實不會請到士兵假不會請到士兵假那如果要請假的話試假就寫有事就好了"},{"start":122.728,"end":148.677,"text":"他也不用告訴你他要幹嘛我有事我在家裡面休息也算是有事啊對不對我只要說我有事私事我就可以請試駕那我何必要去請那個身心調試駕我請了身心調試駕我主管還會覺得我是不是身心壓力太大還怎麼樣他會不會還抱什麼為我來講會不會惹一些麻煩所以我就請試駕就好你今天如果說啦"},{"start":149.477,"end":174.163,"text":"你說新增身心調試假三天不併入試駕計算外加的變成說公務人員可以請十天有請假我是舉例啦當然沒有說一定要這樣做十天那有差但你如果是給了三天然後呢就說這個併入試駕那哪有差不信你可以問我們在場立法院的公務人員你問他們有沒有差沒有差啦"},{"start":175.339,"end":200.096,"text":"根本沒有差然後講的那個願景很偉大好像說我們這個是配合健康台灣有了這三天之後就不得了了公務機關都健康了我覺得這個有點太言過其實了你講的一部分我覺得也可能反映一些人的想法不過第一個就是說身心條例上機關不能拒絕一般警視架也不會拒絕我們也不希望說身心的健康這個問題好像是一個汙名化的議題"},{"start":200.896,"end":222.179,"text":"所以這也是在社會觀念慢慢在轉變大家越來越重視這一塊所以也不用因為請身心調適假有覺得有什麼被汙名化的我沒有說被汙名化我是說有些人怕麻煩嘛所以你現在是鼓勵大家請身心調適假然後讓身心問題不要被汙名化你訂這個假的目的是這個嗎"},{"start":223.52,"end":245.499,"text":"還是你是希望公務人員得到好的保障目的是哪一個嘛如果你的目的是要讓公務人員請假比較方便或者是讓他壓力變小我覺得你這樣的做法也許理想很豐滿啦現實很骨感所以我覺得如果要真的有重視這一塊的話要想別的辦法不是用這三天身心調事假來做"},{"start":247.648,"end":255.164,"text":"對 就是說你加一天比如說你七天試駕加一天身心調試駕是外加的 我覺得可能可以達到效果"},{"start":255.956,"end":278.453,"text":"但你病入那就效果有限我想價值我們重視身心健康的其中的一環我們員工協助方案去協助員工這方面的議題或是紓解身心壓力這個部分其他部分都要一起做第二 剛剛蔡議員也有問他說現在公務人員報考的或者是特別是在工程類地方政府都很缺"},{"start":279.534,"end":299.124,"text":"我跟一些基層公務員聊過啦他們說兩件事情第一個公務員現在的薪資其實跟業界比也不見得比得上公務員剛進去的時候薪資不錯但是到中高階的時候就趨緩了就沒有辦法跟業界中高階來比第二個以前大家認為公務員有一個比較完善的退休保障"},{"start":300.034,"end":318.036,"text":"但是自從就是我們所謂政府年金改革之後大家對於政府失去信任我跟現在在職的公務員聊天啊我就說年金如果說讓他停扣的話對你有什麼影響他說停扣啊我退休還有20年啊當然停扣是好的啊但是我退休還有20年"},{"start":318.777,"end":339.973,"text":"我們的政府就改一改去啊到時候又變了怎麼辦其實這件事情我覺得才是最大的一個危機就是我們的一些優秀人才他對於政府失去信任當時招攬人才進入到政府的時候跟他講說你的退休一定會有保障那薪資可能稍微低一點但是沒關係你退休一定有保障"},{"start":340.353,"end":367.356,"text":"忽然間改了完全失去信賴保障原則而這個不是針對已經受影響的那些退休公務人員是針對未來的人才已經在職的年輕公務人員都是有影響他們基本上是對政府失去信心我覺得這件事情這個考試院應該也要正式啦就是說要怎麼樣去扭轉這一切那我不知道說部長或者是秘書長你對於國民黨委員提出來的年金改革的版本你有了解嗎"},{"start":369.274,"end":394.99,"text":"我們知道有沒有要恢復18%沒有18%然後是不是要回到之前的水準所謂替代率有沒有也沒有嘛對不對因為外面現在有很多不知道是誤解還是故意傳說現在國民黨的年金改革就是要回到以前的水準恢復18%啦所謂替代率恢復75%沒有嘛現在是停扣嘛那停扣的目的是什麼停扣的目的是大家做一個通盤檢討嘛"},{"start":396.536,"end":423.574,"text":"然後再來就是我覺得政府要展現一個態度就是說我們之前做了但是沒關係現在既然有這個聲音好我們就來通盤檢討一下再一次給外界一個表達跟立場的說明然後我覺得還有一件事就我剛剛講的你要換回公務人員對政府的信任因為這個不是只有對之前的公務人員這對於我們招攬人才也都是有幫助的希望考試院可以往這個方向去啦"},{"start":423.834,"end":442.07,"text":"我想基金財務如果不見錢的話大家也會對這個退休制度會有那信任的問題咧信任的問題咧所以這個部分我覺得委員剛剛講沒有錯啦都改來改去啊所以你要檢討嘛你要有一個完整論述就是前面是已經造成一些裂痕嘛要一個完整論述嘛對啊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1161,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時11分）我請秘書長，還有銓敘部。"],["主席：請秘書長、銓敘部。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：秘書長好。現在考試院從10月10號開始要針對公務人員新增3天的身心調適假。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["葉委員元之：身心調適假講得目標非常遠大，說是要呼應健康臺灣的願景，健康臺灣是賴總統提出來的嘛！呼應這個願景，所以要推出這3天的身心調適假，然後它的內容就是公務人員每年可以請3天，併入事假計算，然後以小時計，免醫療證明，主管不得拒絕，應該是這樣，沒錯吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是的。"],["葉委員元之：我不知道秘書長有沒有去跟基層公務人員聊過這個身心調適假？你覺得他們對這個身心調適假會有期待呢？還是覺得可有可無？你有沒有去了解一下基層公務人員的心聲？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，因為今天才實施嘛！"],["葉委員元之：因為願景很……今天才實施沒錯啦，但是公務人員可以預期這個假對他來說是有用還是沒有用嘛！"],["施部長能傑：過去在討論的時候有跟一些機關討論……"],["葉委員元之：他們很期待這3天嗎？"],["施部長能傑：應該是說他們覺得這個假本身對調節身心來講，有需要的時候當然是有幫忙啊！"],["葉委員元之：確定？部長，我請問一下，現在是併入事假7天對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["葉委員元之：公務人員一年請7天事假是不用扣薪的，對吧？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["葉委員元之：現在是7天事假如果有請3天身心調適假的話，那就還有4天事假是可以不用扣薪，沒錯吧？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["葉委員元之：對他來說有什麼差？請事假就好了啊！"],["施部長能傑：因為那個……"],["葉委員元之：一般來說，公務人員請假大部分其實不會請到事、病假，如果要請假的話，事假就寫「有事」就好了，他不用告訴你要幹嘛，我有事，在家裡面休息也算是有事啊！對不對？我只要說我有私事就可以請事假啊！又何必要去請身心調適假？請了身心調適假，主管還會覺得我是不是身心壓力太大還是怎麼樣，對我來講，會不會惹一些麻煩？所以我就請事假就好。今天如果新增身心調適假3天，不併入事假計算，是外加的，變成公務人員可以請10天有薪假，我是舉例，當然沒有一定要這樣做，10天，那就有差，但如果是給了3天，然後又併入事假，那哪有差？不信可以問我們在場立法院的公務人員，你問他們有沒有差？沒有差啦！根本沒有差，然後講的那個願景很偉大，好像說這是配合健康臺灣，有了這3天之後就不得了了，公務機關都健康了，我覺得這個有點太言過其實。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員講的部分我覺得可能也反映一些人的想法，不過，第一個就是身心調適假機關不能拒絕。"],["葉委員元之：一般請事假也不會拒絕啦！"],["劉秘書長建忻：第二個，我們也不希望身心健康這個問題好像是一個污名化的議題，這也是社會觀念慢慢在轉變，大家越來越重視這一塊，所以也不用因為請身心調適假覺得有什麼被污名化的……"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，我沒有說被污名化，我是說有些人怕麻煩嘛。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以你現在是鼓勵大家請身心調適假，然後讓身心問題不要被污名化？訂這個假的目的是這個嗎？還是希望公務人員得到好的保障？"],["劉秘書長建忻：當然是希望可以正面面對……"],["葉委員元之：目的是哪一個？如果目的是要讓公務人員請假比較方便或者是讓他壓力變小，我覺得這樣的作法也許理想很豐滿，現實很骨感！"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個可以大家一起來討論。"],["葉委員元之：所以我覺得如果真的要重視這一塊的話，要想別的辦法，不是用這3天身心調適假來做。"],["劉秘書長建忻：前面我們報告過，除了假以外……"],["葉委員元之：就是說你加1天，比如7天事假加1天身心調適假，是外加的我覺得可能可以達到效果，但是你是併入，那就效果有限。"],["劉秘書長建忻：假是我們重視身心健康的其中一環，我們員工協助方案去協助員工這方面的議題，或是紓解身心壓力這個部分，其他部分都要一起做。"],["葉委員元之：第二，剛剛蔡易餘委員也有問，他說現在公務人員報考的或者特別是在工程類，地方政府都很缺嘛！我有跟一些基層公務員聊過，他們說兩件事情：第一個，公務人員現在的薪資其實跟業界比也不見得比得上，公務員剛進去的時候薪資不錯，但是到中高階的時候就趨緩了，沒有辦法跟業界的中高階來比。第二個，以前大家認為公務人員有一個比較完善的退休保障，但是自從政府年金改革之後，大家對於政府失去信任。我跟現在在職的公務人員聊天，我說年金如果讓它停扣的話對你有什麼影響？他說：「停扣喔！我退休還有20年，當然停扣是好的啊！但是我退休還有20年，我們的政府就改來改去，到最後又變了怎麼辦？」其實這件事情我覺得才是最大的危機，就是我們的一些優秀人才對於政府失去信任，當時招攬人才進入政府的時候，跟他講說你的退休一定會有保障，薪資可能稍微低一點，但是沒關係，你退休一定有保障，忽然間改了，完全失去信賴保障原則，而這個不是針對已經受影響的那些退休公務人員，是針對未來的人才、已經在職的年輕公務人員都是有影響，他們基本上是對政府失去信心，我覺得這件事情考試院應該也要正視，就是說要怎麼樣去扭轉這一切，我不知道部長或者是秘書長對於國民黨委員提出來的年金改革版本，你有了解嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們知道法案的內容。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有要恢復18%？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有18%。"],["葉委員元之：然後所得替代率是不是要回到之前的水準？有沒有？"],["劉秘書長建忻：也沒有回到原來的水準。"],["葉委員元之：也沒有嘛！對不對？因為外面現在有很多不知道是誤解還是故意傳說：哎呀！現在國民黨的年金改革就是要回到以前的水準，恢復18%，所得替代率恢復75。沒有嘛！現在是停扣嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["葉委員元之：那停扣的目的是什麼？停扣的目的是大家做通盤檢討嘛！然後再來就是我覺得政府要展現一個態度，我們之前做了，但是沒關係，現在既然有這個聲音，好，我們就來通盤檢討一下，再一次給外界一個表達跟立場的說明。然後我覺得還有一件事就是我剛剛講的，你要喚回公務人員對政府的信任，因為這個不是只有對之前的公務人員，這對於我們招攬人才也都是有幫助的，我希望考試院可以往這個方向去啦！"],["劉秘書長建忻：我想基金財務如果不健全的話，大家也會對這個退休制度會有……"],["葉委員元之：那信任的問題呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是信任的問題，所以這個部分我覺得如果……委員剛剛講的沒有錯，就這個議題……"],["葉委員元之：就改來改去啊！所以你要檢討嘛！你要有一個完整論述……"],["劉秘書長建忻：大家來檢討一下整體的財務狀況……"],["葉委員元之：前面已經造成一些裂痕，要有一個完整論述嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們可以來呈現給大家……"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員一起研究，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員發言。","現在委員們都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或者是以書面答復者，請考試院及所屬機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。有關於伍麗華委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並且請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163990","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163990","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb625f90621a1bb01fe7119d4e8153da54ef5dd0128aa318ab8eb63d252e14d10cbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:02:53 - 12:10:26","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T12:02:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:10:26+08:00","duration":453,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.61284375,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.50284375,"end":5.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.181593750000001,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.610968750000001,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.04534375,"end":16.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.36159375,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.95221875,"end":19.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.09534375,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.09909375,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.71409375,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.89971875,"end":30.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.66721875,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.62471875,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.41346875,"end":48.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.74909375,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.36409375,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.49721875,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.35534375,"end":185.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.84096875,"end":206.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.17596875,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.62221875,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.02284375000002,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.13596875000002,"end":237.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.27096875,"end":219.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.32159375,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.78284375,"end":244.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.14034375000003,"end":253.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.89846875,"end":257.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.15096875,"end":259.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.82596875,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.50096875,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.02409375,"end":300.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.94346875,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.02284375,"end":269.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.27034375,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.61596875000004,"end":280.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.83096875,"end":281.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.97409375,"end":283.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.26096875,"end":283.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.45221875000004,"end":321.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.43221875,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.92159375,"end":322.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.98909375,"end":322.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.54596875000004,"end":322.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.79909375,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.22659375,"end":343.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.30221875,"end":343.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.94346875,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.03971875,"end":350.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.09034375000005,"end":351.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.99721875,"end":351.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.23346875000004,"end":358.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.89471875000004,"end":361.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.61159375,"end":371.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.77034375000005,"end":375.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.46596875,"end":379.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.94221875000005,"end":389.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.77596875,"end":418.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.03346875000005,"end":417.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.49721875,"end":424.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.30221875,"end":424.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.35284375000003,"end":424.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.47096875000005,"end":424.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.75784375,"end":430.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.10284375000003,"end":439.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.78096875000006,"end":439.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.30409375000005,"end":439.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.40534375000004,"end":439.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.42221875,"end":440.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.06346875,"end":440.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.08034375000005,"end":440.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.09721875,"end":440.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.11409375000005,"end":447.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.71284375000005,"end":442.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.37909375000004,"end":452.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.97346875000005,"end":449.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.73284375000003,"end":450.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.96471875000003,"end":452.75346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.803,"end":26.977,"text":"不好意思那還是請葉委員先讓蔡宇宇委員發言好了繼續交換一下好 謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請考試院秘書長考選部部長跟選區部部長秘書長還有部長"},{"start":32.711,"end":54.519,"text":"好 秘書長以及兩位部長事實上我要講的問題在之前在詢問的時候我有講現在還是要再講我們看這幾年來整個土木就是說國家的公務員土木相關的人才"},{"start":55.549,"end":82.601,"text":"是非常的缺乏那我們以高普考的人數來看你來看工程類的在112年到114年缺額是增加了600人土木類的缺額是增加了400人報考的人數卻是從3300下降到2700所以缺額增加報考人數減少所以呈現著現在整個公務機關"},{"start":84.42,"end":104.021,"text":"非常欠缺在做這些工程的尤其是在這個越基層的公家單位我們也許我們去問內政部我們去問國土署他們都不會給你答案因為為什麼因為公務員在公家機關在中央機關資格比較高薪水比較高"},{"start":104.702,"end":120.267,"text":"但是如果是在我們像嘉義縣非六都的那又有三級政府的他的待遇是又比不上在中央單位的待遇所以你來看這裡的鄉鎮公所"},{"start":121.027,"end":128.617,"text":"他整個建設課請不上人 或是說好不容易培養一棟 差不多有經驗 人們要跑去或是說別的單位 像我們這裡就有零務署 很多單位 叫我吃 人們就叫我繞過去"},{"start":138.55,"end":162.619,"text":"所以人才我們基層一直沒有人才那這樣的狀況我覺得已經不是說地方政府留不住人這樣這一句話這麼簡單這個已經變成整個制度架構會讓整個地方政府在整個工程類我們有很多好的計畫要執行的時候地方政府沒有人可以做這些工作所以這個問題很嚴重"},{"start":164.139,"end":182.193,"text":"那我想要請教一下就是說我們不管是考試院我們在替國家在把著人才考選部我們的考試單位或者是我們詮釋部我們到底有什麼辦法可以強化整個地方政府把一流的土木人才可以留在公家單位呢這個有誰可以先來回答一下"},{"start":190.038,"end":211.838,"text":"這是一個複雜的問題我先不講那個待遇這方面的一個事情而是說考試院這邊 部裡面這邊做的就是說我們最近確實也調整了做這個植物類等的通案調整譬如說我們把所有工程機關的委任的那個職缺就會減比例啊 配置比例的變少變少意思是說有比較多可以"},{"start":213.059,"end":237.145,"text":"設建任啦這個東西就是對於基層機關來講就會更大的一個有升遷的機會啦讓他想要留在這個機關繼續服務他有比較高他的薪水就相對會比較高一點啦我們能做的大概是比較偏這一方面來做一些努力啦其他就是說我們也會放寬譬如像說譬如說你去外面有專業證照的人你也可以"},{"start":237.825,"end":257.369,"text":"也可以很順利的這個進到機關裡面來使用或者你也可以營用非限職人員其實這些都是我們部裡面這邊可以努力去讓這些特別是像土木工程這種機關缺人的時候我們提供那些機制給他們使用啦這個 我想這個議題是真的是一個很複雜很複雜的議題我了解這個大家都在叫啦部長 部長 當然欠人大家單位都說欠人啦可是現在"},{"start":264.751,"end":270.959,"text":"我們對於這種機關需要有這些工程人才這件事情我覺得態度上就沒有其他你說我們為了留住這個機關要有醫師或獸醫我們還開設了不開業獎金"},{"start":281.251,"end":300.319,"text":"那就是有什麼辦法然後說我因為有不開業獎金那我放棄我可能在民間尤其現在獸醫獸醫師現在民間多好賺但他會願意留在公部門表示在公部門有足夠的誘因所以我們創設了不開業獎金但是在工程這一類我覺得一直被漠視"},{"start":301.819,"end":304.942,"text":"一直大家不覺得這件事重要我們要推動很多好的建設基層的公務員尤其是在第一線新辦人員是最重要的新辦人員這個工廠大家監督得好這個工廠後面的品質他的水準一定都會比較好"},{"start":322.157,"end":342.645,"text":"對不對這樣事實上我覺得我們全區部還是我們考試部我們還是在國家怎麼用人怎麼培養人這件事情上在於這個工程人才不管是土木系的啦或者是他是工程的建築系的這裡的人才我們要給他最好的方法劉才公社這關有誘因耶"},{"start":344.005,"end":357.935,"text":"他們不理我事實上原因很多層還有一種就是覺得說公家機關可能風險高民間機關沒有風險大禹又好有很多原因的啊這個原因我們不可以說因為原因在這裡所以我們就不可以解決"},{"start":358.996,"end":374.964,"text":"不然我們就沒辦法改觀 不能這樣啦 要想辦法我想行政院人事行政總署也努力在透過代議獎金這部分改觀我們這邊就透過 譬如說植物獵的等等或者是其他相關的一種方式來解決大家都有想辦法啦可能好過還沒像大家預期這樣啦部長我覺得還有一點啦 所以我們在想辦法的"},{"start":382.208,"end":396.64,"text":"要從基層機關比如說你們應該要回到鄉鎮公所或者是地方政府他們的用人因為我們在中央機關真的在這一點的感受沒有基層機關的強烈因為中央的機關只等"},{"start":397.461,"end":407.508,"text":"基層客觀 所以人會往更好的地方去嘛就不想留在基層 但是基層是很重要的這個丹納斯颱風所有的這裡的勘測啦 要復原啦 要去認定啦都是基層人員做的啊這裡的基層我們是知道要讓他們有誘因留在基層單位所以我們這件通案的概念裡面是地方政府很重要的一個角色我們在處理啦"},{"start":424.761,"end":451.334,"text":"好啊好啊 我希望趕快拿出更多好的對策出來讓他們留在基層有尊嚴 待遇又好 留在基層好這樣我覺得基層越強壯 代表我們中央政府越強有啦 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府 我也想在中央政府"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1127,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時3分）就當作我們有交換。謝謝召委，我們有請考試院秘書長、考選部部長跟銓敘部部長。"],["主席：請秘書長還有部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：秘書長以及兩位部長。事實上，我要講的這個問題之前在詢答的時候也有講過，但現在還是要再講，我們看這幾年來，國家公務員中的土木相關人才是非常的缺乏，我們以高普考的人數來看，工程類在112年到114年的缺額增加了600人，土木類的缺額增加了400人，報考的人數卻是從3,300人下降到2,700人，缺額增加，加上報考人數減少，所以呈現的就是現在整個公務機關非常欠缺做這一些工程的人，尤其是越基層的公家單位，也許我們去問內政部、去問國土署，他們都不會給你答案，為什麼？因為公務員在中央機關的職等比較高、薪水比較高，但是如果是在像嘉義縣這種非六都的縣市，又有三級政府的，他們的待遇是比不上在中央單位任職的待遇，所以你看這些鄉鎮公所，整個建設課請不到人，或是好不容易培養了一年，差不多有經驗了，哇！人要走了，或是說別的單位要挖角，像我們這裡就會遇到林務署等等很多單位要挖角，人就又被拉過去了，所以基層一直沒有人才。這樣的狀況，我覺得已經不是「地方政府留不住人」這一句話這麼簡單，這已經變成整個制度架構會讓地方政府在整個工程類有很多好的計畫要執行的時候，地方政府沒人有辦法做這些工作，所以這個問題很嚴重。我想要請教一下，不管是考試院在替國家拔擢人才，考選部也就是我們的考試單位，或者是銓敘部，到底有什麼辦法可以強化地方政府把一流的土木人才留在公家單位呢？這個有誰可以先來回答一下？"],["施部長能傑：我先跟委員報告，這是一個複雜的問題，我先不講待遇這方面的事情，而是考試院、部裡面這邊做的就是我們最近確實也做了職務列等的通案調整，譬如說，我們把所有工程機關的委任職缺配置比例變少，變少的意思就是有比較多可以設薦任，這個東西對於基層機關來講就會有更大的……"],["蔡委員易餘：有升遷的機會。"],["施部長能傑：有升遷的機會。"],["蔡委員易餘：讓他想要留在這個機關繼續服務。"],["施部長能傑：職等比較高，薪水就相對會比較高一點。"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["施部長能傑：我們能做的大概是從比較偏這一方面來做一些努力，其他就是我們也會放寬，譬如在外面有專業證照的人也可以很順利的進到機關裡面來使用，或者也可以遴用非現職人員，其實這些都是我們部裡面可以努力，特別是讓土木工程相關機關缺人的時候，我們提供那些機制可以使用，我想這個議題真的是一個很複雜、很複雜的議題，我了解，大家都在叫啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，當然是每個單位都說缺人，可是現在對於機關需要有工程人才這件事情，我覺得在態度上都沒有其他……你說為了機關要有醫師或獸醫，我們還開設了不開業獎金，那就是有在想辦法，然後因為有不開業獎金，放棄可能在民間……尤其現在獸醫師在民間多好賺啊！但他會願意留在公部門，表示公部門有足夠的誘因，所以我們創設了不開業獎金。但是在工程這一類，我覺得一直被漠視，大家一直不覺得這件事情重要，不過我們知道要推動很多好的建設，基層的公務員，尤其第一線承辦人員是最重要的，承辦人員如果把這個工程監督好，這個工程後面的品質、水平、水準一定都會比較好，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得銓敘部和考選部還是在國家怎麼用人、怎麼培養人這件事情上，對於工程人才，不管是土木系或者是工程、建築系等等，這些人才我們要想辦法讓他們有留在公家機關的誘因，事實上他們不留的原因有很多層，還有一種就是覺得公家機關可能風險高，民間機關沒有風險、待遇又好，有很多原因，但我們不能說因為原因在這裡，所以我們就不要解決、我們就沒辦法解決，不能這樣，要想辦法！"],["施部長能傑：有啦，我想行政院人事行政總處也努力透過待遇、獎金這部分來解決，我們這邊就透過職務列等或者其他相關方式來解決，也就是說大家都有在想辦法，但可能效果還沒有像大家所預期的……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得還有一點，我們在想辦法要從基層機關，比如說應該要回到鄉鎮公所或者是地方政府的用人，畢竟中央機關在這一點的感受真的沒有基層機關強烈，因為中央機關的職等比基層還高，而人會往更好的地方去，所以就不想留在基層，但是基層是很重要的，這次丹娜絲颱風所有勘災、復原、認定等，都是基層人員做的。"],["施部長能傑：我知道。"],["蔡委員易餘：針對這些基層人員，我們就要讓他們有誘因留在基層單位。"],["施部長能傑：所以這次的通案概念是以地方政府作為一個很重要的角色在處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：好啊！好啊！我希望趕快拿出更多好的對策出來，讓他們留在基層，有尊嚴、待遇又好，留在基層，我覺得基層越強壯，代表我們中央政府越強。"],["施部長能傑：有啦！我常常回去鄉下，上個月我才去嘉義縣政府裡面了解一些情況。"],["蔡委員易餘：你如果和他們聊天，都哀哀叫啦！哀鴻遍野啦！"],["施部長能傑：有啦！我有了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：多聽聽他們的聲音啦！好不好？謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員。剛剛因為葉元之委員稍微錯過了，葉委員還要再申請發言吧！對吧？"],["葉委員元之：是。"],["主席：好，在這邊我邀請你可以再繼續，最後一位質詢。","我們繼續宣告：因為登記發言委員已經詢答完畢，但是現有葉元之委員希望能夠再請求詢答，如果在場委員無異議的話，接著就請葉元之委員進行詢答，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb6279ef0f2bb752dfe9819c05f3ca7f3b915dd0128aa318ab8e5b5cf774a2689c845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:51:15 - 12:01:23","影片長度":"00:10:08","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T11:51:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:01:23+08:00","duration":608,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.64159375,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.45971875,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.610968750000001,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.661593750000002,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.42096875,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.58846875,"end":24.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.719093750000003,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.27159375,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.924093750000004,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.78034375,"end":43.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.59784375,"end":47.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.150343750000005,"end":46.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.85909375,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.92659375,"end":46.977218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.994093750000005,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.80409375,"end":53.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.305343750000006,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.05159375,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.56159375,"end":67.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.47221875000001,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.76221875,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.75284375000001,"end":78.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.78659375000001,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.08409375000001,"end":92.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.74221875,"end":105.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.87096875,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.21221875,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.34721875000001,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.80284375000001,"end":109.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.98846875000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.96721875,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.58971875,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.98846875,"end":138.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.63346875000002,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.37159375000002,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.56971875000002,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.58659375000002,"end":161.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.70471875,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.09846875000002,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.93596875,"end":184.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.15096875,"end":177.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.86721875,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.92534375000002,"end":208.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.81034375000002,"end":197.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.26159375,"end":199.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.82534375,"end":209.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.58471875,"end":209.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.87159375000002,"end":209.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.90534375000001,"end":209.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.92221875,"end":209.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.93909375,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.06971875000002,"end":211.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.10346875000002,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.35659375,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.96409375000002,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.98846875,"end":218.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.49409375000002,"end":223.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.24471875,"end":234.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.71159375000002,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.74534375000002,"end":249.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.78596875000002,"end":246.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.84471875000003,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.98346875000001,"end":251.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.35034375,"end":251.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.58659375000002,"end":260.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.61471875,"end":272.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.26784375,"end":266.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.65909375,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.19471875,"end":277.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.74721875,"end":279.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.90721875,"end":311.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.13659375000003,"end":296.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.84784375000004,"end":318.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.88034375,"end":315.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.63534375,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.57971875000004,"end":322.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.99721875,"end":396.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.01534375,"end":406.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.83659375,"end":415.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.44721875000005,"end":425.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.73659375000005,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.24659375000005,"end":429.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.03409375,"end":445.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.83909375,"end":451.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.63971875000004,"end":452.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.41159375,"end":455.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.90909375,"end":464.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.30034375,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.97096875000005,"end":465.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.03846875000005,"end":465.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.96659375,"end":466.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.03409375,"end":482.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.09471875,"end":520.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.33784375,"end":545.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.3972187500001,"end":547.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.0803437500001,"end":548.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.68784375,"end":552.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.05846875,"end":571.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.83784375,"end":561.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.3972187500001,"end":573.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.46034375,"end":573.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.8147187500001,"end":576.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.2153437500001,"end":576.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.8015937499999,"end":579.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.7297187500001,"end":579.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.3159687500001,"end":579.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.3328437499999,"end":579.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.40034375,"end":580.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.5984687499999,"end":585.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.05409375,"end":581.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.42909375,"end":584.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.15471875,"end":585.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.7453437500001,"end":587.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.6140937499999,"end":589.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.8459687500001,"end":591.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.79096875,"end":591.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.2253437500001,"end":593.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.44034375,"end":598.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.5490937500001,"end":600.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.3759687500001,"end":600.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.73034375,"end":603.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.6372187500001,"end":603.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.6453437499999,"end":604.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.69596875,"end":604.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.8647187500001,"end":606.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.7253437500001,"end":608.03721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.739,"end":8.04,"text":"麻煩請勞動部長請紅部長"},{"start":15.4,"end":37.557,"text":"喂 業務員好部長好 先問一下無薪假的問題因為8月又攀升到8500人比7月又多1000多人最近是抖升應該是10月1號的公佈10月1號我想請教一下因為我看到你有提到你最近一直在仿視產業那你都仿視什麼產業其實傳統產業比較多那現在你預估11月的無薪假人數會繼續往上衝嗎"},{"start":45.097,"end":58.137,"text":"應該不是預估啦因為你有訪視嘛所以有了解嘛我們會要我覺得要為人數還增加當然要為人數增加做準備大概你覺得你預估大概多少不是估一個就狀況是會更嚴峻還是會趨緩"},{"start":60.598,"end":76.557,"text":"我們就是要我認為我們要對於人數還會再增加去做相關的政策上面的資源準備因為這個東西跟你邊預算或政府的因應作為都有關啦所以回答也不能那麼的抽象啦我相信你應該要給一個具體的答案嘛你覺得會比較嚴峻還是會趨緩"},{"start":78.8,"end":91.785,"text":"我們現在看到的數據因為9月16號的時候那一次公佈增加是240010月1號的時候公佈是增加1100就增加的幅度來說是有降低"},{"start":92.919,"end":110.327,"text":"對我現在問未來啦因為你有仿事嘛如果你都丟的不管我不會問你嘛你有仿事有些企業跟你回應說我們現在可能這個月還可以撐下個月撐不住或如何如何你會有一個判斷嘛這就是你仿事的目的嘛我們認為要就是是有可能會再增加的就是會更嚴峻啦"},{"start":111.067,"end":136.167,"text":"那當然你昨天我們也在審你們的像今天在審你們所提出來的預算就是有因應國際局勢的任性你們這邊是編的250億其中有100億是給勞保啦另外150億是辦理勞工的安定就業各項措施然後我看你的計畫裡面提的10項那其中有一項是辦理青年就業計畫那這個部分預計投入多少錢詳細的數字"},{"start":140.666,"end":160.76,"text":"一例投資多少錢總共是15億15億那其實你這個資源青年計劃我之前就有看過了在你提這個計劃預算之前就有看過那時候左下角是講說本項措施符合就業安定基金促進國民就業用途看起來這個錢原本是要用救安基金去付"},{"start":162.288,"end":188.971,"text":"同樣一個計劃忽然間又送特別預算過來特別預算一般是說要因應緊急狀況沒有錢的時候送那已經確定要用救安基金來付為什麼又送特別預算過來目的是什麼跟文說明其實我們在關稅的期間其實是有把包括適用對象包括補貼的金額其實都有在拉高但是因為你這個原本的資源青年就業計劃你是有名額限制嗎"},{"start":190.012,"end":207.466,"text":"你是符合條件就可以啊對對啊那既然是符合條件就可以那就沒有金額的問題啊不是那為什麼要另外再編特別預算來我說補貼的金額我們把它拉高沒有沒有本來金額你這邊救安基金就是四萬八你現在特別預算也是四萬八金額一樣啊"},{"start":209.908,"end":234.167,"text":"跟文說因為還是說你現在用特別預算來取代救安基金不是不是不是我們原定這部分就是要用特別預算來支援自己看救安基金不是不是因為特別預算還沒過還沒過所以現在就是先移緩季節我了解所以你的意思是說在沒有這沒有特別預算的話呢你用救安基金來支付那現在有特別預算救安基金就不用付了嘛對吧"},{"start":234.787,"end":250.1,"text":"意思是這樣嗎應該是說其實因為這是因為特別預算現在還在審查可是現在已經會有青年對於這個計畫對於資源有需求所以就是說所以我們先用這個先用基金對那之後一環基金之後就用特別預算對"},{"start":251.661,"end":268.849,"text":"那接下來我就想要順便問一下因為你這個計畫我看到他是用15到29歲啦未就業都可以那15歲到18歲應該理論上他應該在讀書啦那但是呢可能有一些未就業所以適用這個計畫請問一下大概15到18歲未就業有請領這個計畫的現在是多少人"},{"start":274.127,"end":291.97,"text":"15到18特別問15到你去統計一下好不好如果15我特別問15我可能要算一下統計一下好不好因為我們我覺得你們統計完之後應該要跟教育部來討論一下就是說為什麼有這些學生他是沒有去讀書然後是去就業有什麼狀況可能要跟社政機關一起研究一下"},{"start":292.27,"end":320.648,"text":"因為理論上我們應該還是鼓勵這個年齡的學生去讀書啦當然對所以這個不是說你就給他錢就不管他當然照顧他我覺得政府也應該做但是也應該要了解正常來說應該讀書為什麼你會來就業這個其實在我們其實相關的統計就是有他就是為就學為就業的一般我們簡稱為為的青年所以還是會有一些他在這個階段我覺得還是要跟教育部跟"},{"start":321.528,"end":345.883,"text":"跟那個衛福部大家去討論一下好再來我就因為講到救安基金看起來救安基金就是你的小金庫啦就是沒錢的時候拿出來用一下有錢就可以收回來然後之前大家對於救安基金有很多批評因為被拿去開演唱會啊拿去裝潢啊拿去拍影片啊然後這一些的那既然這個救安基金現在已經收這麼多多到感覺變成可以這樣子用"},{"start":346.563,"end":373.339,"text":"那我覺得你何不就是在繳交的部分呢我覺得你可以放寬一點讓有一些其實有困難的人可以不用繳交那目前就業安定費是根據就業服務法第55條啦有三個狀況是可以免繳啦一個譬如說他是中低收入戶或者是他是身心障礙者但是他有領取生活補助或者是醫療人福利法領取中低收入生活津貼這三種人他是不用繳交就業安定費"},{"start":374.099,"end":395.116,"text":"可是其實他都有一個財務的限制就他必須要符合可能收入比較低這一塊但是我們都知道像我們在地方也很多人跟我們反映他其實生活也不見得很好但是他就是沒有達到中低收入戶的標準那這些人假設他們家裡面有中高中重度的失能者要照顧的話他請一個外籍看護要不要繳救援安定費 要"},{"start":397.051,"end":424.985,"text":"其實我覺得對他來說是蠻大的一筆負擔那如果救安基金都已經這麼多了政府都可以拿去開演唱會了都可以拿去拍影片了那為什麼不能讓這些真的家裡面比較有困難的讓他免繳的我覺得部長您研究一下好不好跟我說明第一個我們在今年1月的時候其實我們就已經提出強化管理救安基金的方案所以不會再有之前看到的這些有爭議的使用狀況"},{"start":426.045,"end":452.421,"text":"那是代表說之前就是錢太多才會這樣嘛那你現在的錢還是一樣多啊更何況剛剛也講了嘛你用特別預算也來補了救安基金本來要支出的部分嘛所以救安基金的錢是綽綽有餘我們現在是用救安基金去補其實應該特別要用規劃用特別預算的部分錢就是有空出來本來要拿去付這個初次循職津貼但現在有特別預算了所以我覺得你"},{"start":453.502,"end":481.887,"text":"部長你去研究一下啦就是說救安基金你那麼多非必要的支出你都在花了過去是這樣今年錢一樣多啊未來這些支出我們都會我們做出救安基金的改革所以沒有 你改革但是未來會這樣過去會這樣代表說沒有那麼多的需求嘛他才會把這些錢拿來這樣用嘛那為什麼忽然間需求會增加是我們勞工條件越來越差嗎還是你看壞我們經濟否則你為什麼會認為說未來救安基金的需求會越來越大"},{"start":483.169,"end":507.125,"text":"如果你經濟穩定的話這不是告訴我們經濟穩定啊理論上來講救安基金是安定就業那他基本上他最起碼維持跟過去一樣的水平啊那為什麼你會認為說救安基金未來的支出會越來越多你如果把那些開演唱會啊拍影片這些錢把它去掉之後支付的還會更多我我相信那你很看壞我們經濟欸所以我我現在不是沒有叫你立刻給答案但我覺得研議一下因為"},{"start":507.825,"end":535.878,"text":"如果說救安基金的錢確實水位很高然後可以做像過去可以用那些用途的話為什麼針對這一些比較有困難的家庭他不符合免繳的用途我們不能夠放寬呢我相信這個錢也沒有很多所以我希望說不然你去試算一下你去試算一下如果說假設假設我講完假設針對就是他不符合中低收入戶但是家裡有重度失能以上的這些家庭他也許有困難讓他免繳"},{"start":536.938,"end":552.058,"text":"一個月兩千塊的就業安定費到底對於救安基金的影響有多大我覺得至少給個評估出來嘛給個評估然後再去看說欸救安基金這個如果扣掉一些非必要支出欸可以可以這個過得去那我覺得大家可以往這個方向去做啊"},{"start":553.075,"end":572.761,"text":"跟委員報告 第一個因為過去的確我們在免繳救安基金部分比較是針對收入以收入作為篩選條件那我們有看到一些委員其實對於這個救安基金免繳或少繳其實有提出希望做更多其他類型的期待"},{"start":573.874,"end":602.953,"text":"那我想我們可以來做一些評估你做一個研討我們也可以來做一些評估就是你把那個金額算出來然後當面我們會來整體估計一下包括救援基金的財務狀況這樣子那大概什麼時候會有這個研究出來我想我們可能一個月好不好給我們兩個月好不好部長你這麼勇於認識的人我們認識這麼久了對不對 一個月我兩個月啦你看你這樣子就訓掉了啦 一個月"},{"start":604.727,"end":606.659,"text":"我們盡快好不好 對那最慢兩個月 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":697,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時51分）麻煩請勞動部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。先問一下無薪假的問題，因為8月又攀升到8,500人，比7月又多一千多人，最近是陡升啦。"],["洪部長申翰：應該是10月1號公布的。"],["葉委員元之：10月1號，對，10月1號。我想請教一下，因為我看到你有提到，你最近一直在訪視產業，那你都訪視什麼產業？"],["洪部長申翰：是。其實傳統產業比較多。"],["葉委員元之：傳統產業？那現在你預估11月的無薪假人數會一直繼續往上衝嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：應該不是預估啦，但是我……"],["葉委員元之：因為你有訪視，所以有了解嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我覺得我們當然要為人數增加做準備。"],["葉委員元之：對，你預估大概多少？"],["洪部長申翰：這不是估一個……"],["葉委員元之：狀況是會更嚴峻還是會趨緩？"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們要對於人數還會再增加去做相關的政策上面的資源準備。"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為這部分跟你編預算或政府的因應作為都有關，所以回答也不能那麼的抽象啦，我相信你應該要給一個具體的答案嘛，你覺得會比較嚴峻還是會趨緩？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在看到的數據，因為9月16號的時候，那一次公布是增加是2,400，10月1號的時候公布是增加1,100，就增加的幅度來說是有降低。"],["葉委員元之：對。我現在是問你未來，因為你有訪視嘛，如果你都丟著不管，我不會問你嘛。你有訪視，有些企業會跟你回應說，我們現在可能這個月還可以撐，下個月如果撐不住或如何如何，你會有一個判斷嘛……"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為……"],["葉委員元之：這個就是你訪視的目的嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為是有可能會再增加的。"],["葉委員元之：就是會更嚴峻啦。像今天也在審你們所提出來因應國際局勢強化韌性的預算，你們這邊編了250億，其中有100億是給勞保，另外150億是辦理勞工的安定就業各項措施，然後我看你的計畫裡面提了10項，其中有一項是辦理青年就業計畫，這個部分預計投入多少錢？預計投入多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：詳細的數字……總共15億。"],["葉委員元之：15億。其實這個支援青年就業計畫我之前就有看過，在你提這個計畫預算之前就有看過，那時候左下角是講說本項措施符合就業安定基金促進國民就業用途，看起來這個錢原本是要用就安基金去付，同樣一個計畫忽然間又送特別預算過來。特別預算一般是要因應緊急狀況沒有錢的時候送嘛，已經確定要用就安基金來付，為什麼又送特別預算過來，目的是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們在關稅談判的期間其實是有把包括適用對象、包括補貼金額都有再拉高……"],["葉委員元之：所以是金額的問題？但是你原本的支援青年就業計畫是有名額限制嗎？你是符合條件就可以啊。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["葉委員元之：對啊，既然是符合條件就可以，那就沒有金額的問題啊。"],["洪部長申翰：不是，我們要……"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼要另外再編特別預算來……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，我是說我們把補貼的金額拉高。"],["葉委員元之：沒有！本來你就安基金這邊的金額就是4萬8,000，現在特別預算也是4萬8,000，金額一樣啊。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為……"],["葉委員元之：還是說你現在要用特別預算來取代就安基金？"],["洪部長申翰：不是！我們原訂這部分就是要用特別預算來支用，可是因為……"],["葉委員元之：沒有！你自己看就安基金。"],["洪部長申翰：不是！因為特別預算還沒過，所以現在就是先移緩濟急，因為現在……"],["葉委員元之：好，我了解！所以你的意思是，在沒有特別預算的話，你用就安基金來支付，然後現在有特別預算了，就安基金就不用付了嘛，對吧？意思是這樣嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說因為特別預算現在還在審查，可是現在已經會有青年對於這個計畫、對於資源有需求……"],["葉委員元之：我了解！所以就是說……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們先用這個。"],["葉委員元之：先用基金？"],["洪部長申翰：對，那之後移緩濟急。"],["葉委員元之：然後之後就用特別預算？"],["洪部長申翰：對！"],["葉委員元之：OK，好。接下來我想要順便問一下，因為你這個計畫，我看到他是用15到29歲未就業的都可以，15歲到18歲理論上應該在讀書，但是可能有一些未就業，所以適用這個計畫。請問一下，大概15到18歲未就業有請領這個計畫的，現在是多少人？"],["洪部長申翰：15到18，你特別問15到……"],["葉委員元之：你去統計一下，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：如果特別問15到18，我可能要算一下。"],["葉委員元之：你統計一下，好不好？我覺得你們統計完之後應該要跟教育部討論一下，為什麼有這些學生沒有去讀書而是去就業？有什麼狀況？可能要跟社政機關一起來研究一下，理論上我們應該還是鼓勵這個年齡的學生去讀書。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["葉委員元之：所以這個不是說你給他錢就不管他，當然照顧他我覺得政府也應該做，但是也應該去了解，正常來說應該要讀書，為什麼你來就業的這個部分，我是提醒啦。"],["洪部長申翰：其實在我們相關的統計，他就是未就學、未就業，一般我們簡稱未未的青年，所以還是會有一些他在這個階段沒有去……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，有啦，但是我覺得還是要跟教育部、衛福部去討論一下。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["葉委員元之：再來，講到就安基金，看起來就安基金就是你的小金庫，就是沒錢的時候拿出來用一下，有錢又可以收回來，之前大家對於就安基金有很多批評，因為被拿去開演唱會、拿去裝潢、拍影片等等，既然這個就安基金現在已經收這麼多，多到感覺變成可以這樣子用，我覺得你何不在繳交的部分放寬一點，讓有一些其實有困難的人可以不用繳交。目前就業安定費根據就業服務法第五十五條有三個狀況是可以免繳，譬如說他是中低收入戶；或者他是身心障礙者，但是他有領取生活補助；或者是依老人福利法領取中低收入生活津貼，這三種人不用繳就業安定費，其實這都有一個財務的限制，就是他必須符合收入比較低這一塊。但是我們都知道，在地方也有很多人跟我們反映，他其實生活也不見得很好，但是他就是沒有達到中低收入戶的標準，假設這些人他們家裡面有中重度的失能者要照顧的話，他請一個外籍看護要不要繳就業安定費？要。我覺得這對他來說是滿大一筆負擔，如果就安基金都已經這麼多了，政府都可以拿去開演唱會、都可以拿去拍影片了，那為什麼不能讓這些家裡面真的比較有困難的可以免繳？部長，你去研究一下好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我們在今年1月的時候其實就已經提出強化管理就安基金的方案，所以不會再有之前看到的這些有爭議的使用狀況。"],["葉委員元之：這代表說之前就是錢太多才會這樣嘛，你現在的錢還是一樣多，更何況剛剛也講了，你用特別預算也來補了就安基金本來要支出的部分，所以就安基金的錢是綽綽有餘。"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在是用就安基金去補，其實應該規劃用特別預算的部分。"],["葉委員元之：錢就是有空出來，本來要拿去付初次尋職津貼，但現在有特別預算，所以我覺得部長你去研究一下，就是說就安基金那麼多非必要的支出都在花了，過去是這樣，今年錢一樣多啊！"],["洪部長申翰：未來這些支出我們都有做就安基金的改革，所以……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，雖然你改革，但是過去會這樣，代表說沒有那麼多的需求，他才會把這些錢拿來這樣用。那為什麼忽然間需求會增加？是我們勞工條件越來越差嗎？還是你看壞我們經濟？否則你為什麼會認為未來就安基金的需求會越來越大？如果經濟穩定的話，政府一直告訴我們經濟穩定，理論上來講，就安基金是安定就業，基本上它最起碼維持跟過去一樣的水平，為什麼你會認為就安基金未來的支出會越來越多？你如果把那些開演唱會、拍影片的錢去掉之後，支付的還會更多，我相信你很看壞我們經濟。我現在沒有要你立刻給答案，但我覺得要研議一下，因為如果就安基金的錢確實水位很高，然後像過去可以用那些用途的話，為什麼針對這些比較有困難的家庭，他不符合免繳的規定，我們不能夠放寬呢？我相信這個錢也沒有很多，不然你去試算一下，假設針對他不符合中低收入戶，但是家裡有重度失能以上的這些家庭，他也許有困難，讓他免繳一個月2,000塊的就業安定費，到底對於就安基金的影響有多大？我覺得至少有一個評估出來嘛，有一個評估，然後再去看就安基金如果扣掉一些非必要支出可以再過得去，那我覺得大家就可以往這個方向去做。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，第一個，過去的確我們在免繳就安基金的部分比較是以收入作為篩選條件，我們看到一些委員對於就安基金免繳或少繳有提出希望做更多其他類型的期待，我想我們可以來做一些評估。"],["葉委員元之：你做一個研討、研議。"],["洪部長申翰：我們也可以來做一些評估。"],["葉委員元之：就是你把那個金額算出來好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：然後我們會來整體估計一下，包括就安基金的財務狀況。"],["葉委員元之：好，大概什麼時候會有這個研究出來？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們可能……"],["葉委員元之：一個月好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：給我們兩個月好不好？"],["葉委員元之：部長，你這麼勇於任事的人，我們認識這麼久了對不對？一個月啦！"],["洪部長申翰：兩個月啦！"],["葉委員元之：你看，這樣子就遜掉了，一個月啦！"],["洪部長申翰：我們儘快好不好？"],["葉委員元之：好啦，最慢兩個月。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員發言。","接下來請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62181e6a11debb2b02819c05f3ca7f3b915dd0128aa318ab8e9eca1244ea1315045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:34:35 - 11:51:10","影片長度":"00:16:35","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T11:34:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:51:10+08:00","duration":995,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.48784375,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.28909375,"end":23.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.025968750000004,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.768468750000004,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.51284375,"end":60.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.73034375,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.82596875,"end":88.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.94534375,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.94846875,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.13409375,"end":99.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.11659375,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.34846875000001,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.22159375000001,"end":107.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.35159375,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.73534375000001,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.49846875,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.54034375,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.96909375000001,"end":126.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.18846875000001,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.25534375,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.74846875,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.91284375,"end":139.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.76409375,"end":144.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.76346875000002,"end":147.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.35784375,"end":152.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.29846875,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.34471875,"end":155.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.52971875,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.56721875000002,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.37721875,"end":163.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.61721875,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.25409375,"end":172.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.28659375,"end":188.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.45284375,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.23721875,"end":192.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.87846875000002,"end":196.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.58659375000002,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.84721875000002,"end":210.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.86721875,"end":211.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.00221875000003,"end":219.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.55784375000002,"end":230.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.59159375000002,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.76034375,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.10034375,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.64346875,"end":251.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.58659375000002,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.94096875000002,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.75909375,"end":264.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.06971875,"end":266.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.24659375000005,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.84096875,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.41346875,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.62409375000004,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.66346875,"end":299.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.69721875000005,"end":299.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.73096875000005,"end":299.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.76471875000004,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.82784375,"end":304.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.75971875000005,"end":309.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.34971875,"end":309.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.94034375,"end":309.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.29471875,"end":312.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.11721875,"end":314.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.17596875000004,"end":318.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.77034375,"end":319.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.16659375,"end":320.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.77409375,"end":324.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.02659375,"end":327.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.97159375,"end":326.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.08534375,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.10159375,"end":333.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.78909375,"end":333.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.95346875,"end":337.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.51409375000003,"end":349.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.85159375,"end":339.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.98471875,"end":366.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.75846875,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.65596875,"end":399.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.10346875000005,"end":412.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.11034375,"end":410.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.08471875000004,"end":414.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.52721875000003,"end":419.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.60659375,"end":421.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.33221875000004,"end":422.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.01971875000004,"end":423.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.96471875000003,"end":434.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.73096875000005,"end":440.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.99159375000005,"end":442.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.16846875000005,"end":447.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.62346875000003,"end":449.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.17159375000006,"end":460.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.87034375,"end":482.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.92596875000004,"end":494.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.70471875000004,"end":496.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.21909375,"end":528.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.91034375,"end":532.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.84221875,"end":533.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.4665937500001,"end":534.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.1584687500001,"end":542.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.2709687500001,"end":543.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.4228437500001,"end":546.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.65909375,"end":543.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.5278437500001,"end":550.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.5947187500001,"end":554.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.35346875,"end":559.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.7622187500001,"end":561.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.9853437500001,"end":562.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.20034375,"end":567.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.3178437500001,"end":600.8147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.6753437500001,"end":602.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.82284375,"end":604.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.3034687500001,"end":611.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.46284375,"end":611.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.7834687500001,"end":628.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.32096875,"end":639.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.40784375,"end":639.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.2978437500001,"end":642.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.9853437500001,"end":643.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.47471875,"end":650.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.8915937500001,"end":653.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.92034375,"end":656.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.27846875,"end":662.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.93159375,"end":663.4209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.6740937500001,"end":668.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.82096875,"end":672.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.5334687500001,"end":672.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.14096875,"end":688.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.7165937500001,"end":689.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.61096875,"end":692.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.8803437500001,"end":711.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.68346875,"end":712.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.9153437500001,"end":715.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.50971875,"end":725.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.29721875,"end":732.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.0303437500002,"end":736.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.0590937500001,"end":743.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.6953437500001,"end":753.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.1072187500001,"end":754.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.8159687500001,"end":761.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.76409375,"end":766.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.2865937500001,"end":796.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.6072187500001,"end":768.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":796.76721875,"end":801.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.84221875,"end":810.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.11096875,"end":831.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.7153437500001,"end":848.4890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.8603437500001,"end":854.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.83846875,"end":869.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.61659375,"end":876.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":875.9953437500001,"end":880.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":879.48846875,"end":885.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.2053437500001,"end":882.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.10784375,"end":886.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.60971875,"end":895.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":896.2790937500001,"end":899.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.84409375,"end":906.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.82221875,"end":904.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.41659375,"end":915.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.9128437500001,"end":921.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.38096875,"end":920.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":922.19909375,"end":925.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.74284375,"end":927.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":927.24471875,"end":931.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.8647187500001,"end":930.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.5815937500001,"end":931.5984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.5984687500002,"end":932.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.61534375,"end":931.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":933.43784375,"end":935.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":933.47159375,"end":934.8384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":936.7790937500001,"end":938.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":939.3103437500001,"end":940.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.5378437500001,"end":944.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":945.58784375,"end":946.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":947.56221875,"end":948.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":948.3047187500001,"end":959.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":960.75846875,"end":979.6922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":979.9284687500001,"end":980.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":981.0590937500001,"end":992.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":992.97284375,"end":993.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":992.9897187500001,"end":993.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":995.2678437500001,"end":995.9765937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":19.702,"end":22.363,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請勞動部長請勞動部長 洪部長蔣委員好"},{"start":32.953,"end":44.722,"text":"部長好這一次對美的關稅談判主要分為兩個部分從貿易額來看分別佔32%的一般傳統產業跟68%的電子相關高科技產業前者是佔定適用20加N衝擊的影響的事業單位和勞工的人數將遠大於後者"},{"start":61.114,"end":88.234,"text":"首先呢就這個勞動就業市場的這個衝擊產業影響最大的大概是由哪些產業現在影響比較大的目前從數據上面看到的包括金屬製品包括機械設備那也包括汽車零組件然後也包括其他的運具裡面當然蠻多是自行車"},{"start":88.988,"end":114.635,"text":"好那在這些產業當中到底有多少勞工那中小業中小企業的占比還有這個就是說這些你們數據你們勞動部都有掌握嗎有所以大概多少勞工目前這幾個行業加起來的話應該占的比例蠻大的數據上我們現在設定"},{"start":116.727,"end":139.035,"text":"強化版的公安令措施開放的九大行業裡面總體的勞工占所有減班休息的勞工大概是占八成以上占八成所以多少7106占現在是8505那在九大就九大的這強化版公安令措施行業大概是7100"},{"start":141.929,"end":164.396,"text":"這是你們剛剛後面算的那些嗎就是剛剛就是你剛講是減班休息的好所以減班休息就是你們唯一的這個好沒關係這個後續我會我會帶到好那所以你們這個中小企業佔的比例"},{"start":165.545,"end":191.783,"text":"中小企業佔的比例是比較高的目前看起來50人以下的加數是35750人 357加 好那勞動部你們所掌握的數據其實外界有提出質疑認為說是嚴重低估那部長剛剛所說的衝擊的這個勞工人數大概有四萬兩千你們說八千多人"},{"start":193.462,"end":195.124,"text":"減班休息的數字目前是8505但是衝擊的這個"},{"start":203.908,"end":230.209,"text":"你們那個減班人數只有衝擊就是只有用減班人數去看而已不是陳委員講的應該是有一次在這個有一個四萬二的這個數字那這四萬二數其實它並不是勞動部估的它其實是應該是行政院當時應該是經濟部的相關的智庫的估計這樣子那行政院把它提供給我們做一個參考"},{"start":231.155,"end":252.693,"text":"好那是這樣子因為當然也有媒體或者其他人在評估就是說這樣的衝擊其實涵蓋勞工大至少有20萬人好那實際上光是製造業的從業人數中因為有包括這個食品及飾品製造業是那還有紡織業還有橡膠"},{"start":254.835,"end":280.874,"text":"橡膠製品製造業還有塑膠製品製造業大概有大概這個九大製造業大概就涵蓋了一百零五萬人了那所以我想要請教就是說你們勞動部是如何推估這個行政院公佈這個四萬二這個四萬兩千人這個數據他的是怎麼樣的這個確認他的正確性"},{"start":281.673,"end":297.101,"text":"跟那個聰遠說明你講的一百零五萬的這個數字是我們當時公佈九個行業適用強化版規模安定措施這九個行業總體的從業人數是一百零五萬可是並不是這一百零五萬都會受到衝擊並不是這個 並不是這樣的狀況"},{"start":301.271,"end":323.806,"text":"對啊所以你們怎麼去推估後來還有個4萬2的這個4萬2那應該是經濟部跟他經濟部的智庫去推估出來的數字那請問請我們是經濟部跟他的什麼去推估出來他其實應該是用一定一些研究的方法去做做這個數字的方法對他不是去對那個勞保行業別人"},{"start":326.127,"end":349.201,"text":"所以研究他們用什麼樣研究的方法這可能要細看一下他們的那你會後再提供給我們看是怎麼樣因為那個42000主要是經濟部跟他的智庫去推估出來的那但是這個數字後來是行政院給我們作為參考用這樣子"},{"start":350.046,"end":372.001,"text":"好那根據勞動部10月1號公布最新一期的減班休息那你們的這個總人總人數和這個家數分別剛剛有提到好就是8505人那有398家其中呢有310家的廠商表達是因為受到這個關稅的影響所以"},{"start":375.038,"end":399.458,"text":"這個部分總人數大概有達到7755人所以大概就是佔全部通報員工人數的九成那勞動部也有表示就是說本期增加了1171人那相較於上一期增加的2471人那這個成長的幅度就比較趨於平緩好那"},{"start":400.279,"end":421.825,"text":"我想要請教就是說難道減班休息的人數是勞動部的這個唯一唯一作為衡量關稅衝擊的指標嗎也不是還有沒有其他那你們其他是因為可能包括包括之前包括之前那也包括大解大量解雇"},{"start":423.086,"end":449.427,"text":"大姐 OK包括大姐 包括之前幾個東西我們都重複但是的確在其他的數據比方說之前的通報裡面並沒有像減班休息的數字的成長的幅度這樣好 那有一種狀況就是假如是產業外移或者他官場歇業了我想這些失業的勞工他就不會出現在這個減班休息的統計上對 所以他就會變成是之前或大姐"},{"start":450.233,"end":471.739,"text":"那因為因為這個好就是說後來這些人大概連班都沒有機會剪了啦那所以你們的失業統計就是他這個母數可能又要建立在這個千萬勞工的這個大母數的基礎上好那即使就說20萬人失業了那顯示數據喔的這個百分比也不會很高所以"},{"start":472.799,"end":495.757,"text":"我想就是說勞動部對於這個就業市場有一個你們有沒有這個即時正確的這個見識指標有嗎跟文說明其實因為之前的通報或者是大姐其實她不會出於母數所以其實還是會直接看到她的個數就是直接人數上面的數據"},{"start":497.304,"end":512.051,"text":"所以我想是這樣本席要在這裡建議勞動部就是說你們可以看一下目前受到衝擊的傳統產業就是說這個行業別勞保投保人數有沒有減少"},{"start":512.751,"end":541.55,"text":"那這個是每個月都會更新變化的數字所以每個月5號呢是雇主申報的這個期限那至少6號在部長的桌上就可以有這幾個行業別投保人數增減的數字所以我不曉得部長覺得說這樣的數據是不是重要是 我再跟委員補充其實我們大家都會看幾個因為減慢休息然後解聘的數字還有包括失業給付的數字"},{"start":543.736,"end":560.45,"text":"因為這幾個數字大概是比較比較敏感的去了解現在就業市場的狀況因為解聘解聘未必等於這個產業外移所以這個部分我覺得還是有一些落差因為解聘就會後面就是失業"},{"start":563.466,"end":589.084,"text":"我講的是產業外移未必完全就是說解聘未必完全就等於產業外移這樣子的一個因素那再來就是說這個月的2號你們發布了這個因應關稅的這個支持方案跟四大措施包含了鬆綁適用對象還有擴增服務內涵以及這個跨部會資源整合以提高效益等等"},{"start":589.964,"end":599.906,"text":"那第一個措施主動訪視衝擊我想要請教部長就是說直到現在你們去訪談工會跟事業單位有得到什麼樣的結論嗎"},{"start":603.068,"end":627.922,"text":"這分成兩個部分因為我們去訪韓工會的確會有一些受衝擊的影響的產業他並沒有工會所以所以我們是請我們的五分數其實五個分數其實幾乎在這從四月到現在半年左右的時間他們幾乎這個訪視就是聯繫跟訪視加起來差不多兩萬多個加次那包括"},{"start":628.522,"end":638.256,"text":"包括在尤其現在大家看起來比較嚴重的地方會是在中部那剛才講的幾個產業包括機械業包括"},{"start":641.305,"end":664.362,"text":"可能水五金機械業水五金幾個金屬製品跟其他運輸都是在中部其實是比較多的因為是這樣子啊就是說經營的風險是雇主那他不是勞工那但是我想你們做這些訪視是不是在你們的這個訪談記錄啊"},{"start":666.883,"end":692.641,"text":"這些僱主的意見我們能不能會後給我們辦公室做參考可以好謝謝那再來第二個措施就是強化僱用安定還有補貼勞工被減薪或降低工時那你們可以補助這個減少的薪資是從五成提高到七成我想要請教就是說你們如何可以周知這些事業單位或者僱主"},{"start":694.102,"end":714.336,"text":"因為他們如果通報的話都會有聯繫的方式所以在聯繫方式上我們都會主動跟這些僱主來聯繫說其實你可以來申請包括幫勞工來申請這個強化版的管理措施那有些勞工其實他有留下聯絡方式我們也會主動跟他聯絡其實你可以申請這個薪資查核補貼我們都會主動聯絡再來就是說"},{"start":716.61,"end":736.429,"text":"受到衝擊在就業的部分你們要對接失業勞工跟缺工的事業單位那也要給他們提供客製化的就業媒合服務我想這個部分我們是給予很高的肯定那但是請問你們要如何具體的執行然後預估的這個KPI是多少"},{"start":738.106,"end":765.361,"text":"因為這個跟文說明因為你剛才講的這個是我們在勞工就業通的計畫那勞工就業通的計畫他主要是設計給因為關稅等等國際情勢的因素而比方說被解雇而失業的勞工對那所以整體的KPI並不是我們自己定因為我也不希望這個數字定很高因為如果定很高代表我們失業的人很多但所以如果你們的具體執行會"},{"start":767.338,"end":794.065,"text":"我想我們會 我自己覺得我們會希望盡量就是我們遇到是因為關稅的因素被解雇然後產生失業狀況我們會盡量的提高對他們的這個轉職的服務所以在這個轉職服務裡面我們也看到的確蠻多他傳統產業其實中高齡的勞工比較多所以因為中高齡的勞工多所以他的職務在設計或者是其實我們有一些相關的訓練我們從這部分為中高齡的勞工多做設計我們其實從這個角度來去協助他們"},{"start":796.966,"end":809.849,"text":"因为今天这样回答也是很抽象因为我不知道你们要设计什么我刚才说包括我们把这个服务从植物在设计其实也从它原本是其他的计划我们把它给整合进来"},{"start":811.152,"end":832.775,"text":"好 沒關係今天時間也差不多了我想這個會後也都希望你們可以做比較詳細的補充那最後一個就是說最後一個措施是這個青年接軌職場然後初次尋找青年然後依規定報名參加計劃完成各項求職準備然後沒有"},{"start":833.235,"end":848.14,"text":"未能找到工作者就發給尋職津貼這個部分聽起來好像是一個已經是既有的計劃那而且再來就是說參加計劃期間找到工作且穩定就業者就發給就業獎金最高"},{"start":849.521,"end":867.954,"text":"合計發給發到4.8萬元這是一個既有的計劃他不是既有計劃但過去其實有真的青年尋職的部分但因為這次關稅因為我們考量到其實會有一些企業他當他遇到關稅衝擊的時候他可能會縮減給年輕人一開始的這個就業的機會"},{"start":869.835,"end":895.522,"text":"所以當時我們經過一些學者的討論認為我們其實應該要對於年輕人的尋子有個強化版的做法所以剛剛因為這個我是看不出來有什麼差別第一個我們提高我們提高提高了這個津貼的津貼的額度就是3萬多到4萬多對然後我們也把適用的範圍放寬然後也包括一開過去其實是要尋子90天那我們現在把它縮減到60天就可以"},{"start":896.663,"end":921.388,"text":"就是說60天的計劃 縮到60天60天沒有工作沒有工作原本是要90天那我們現在把它縮短到60天就可以那但是縮短60天符合那這樣子的就是說期間大概總共要多久計劃是三個月就是他求職找到是三個月我們會給他相關的津貼"},{"start":922.244,"end":944.55,"text":"好那你們怎麼樣去定義說出自尋職這個定義要怎麼去他就是第一次找工作的狀況我們在我們的記錄上面是看得到如果你們記錄上沒有記錄的話在投保記錄上面是看得到的好那我想這個這個部分我們希望就是說可以有一些"},{"start":945.683,"end":959.204,"text":"更令人有感的一些措施在這邊我想今天提醒了很多點因為畢竟說我們關稅現在還在談有些衝擊浪潮要過一段時間"},{"start":960.856,"end":978.776,"text":"才會慢慢的湧現所以在這裡要特別提醒你們就是說要麻煩你們要隨時注意這個現有的這個方案措施的成效那特別是很多他都是有時效性的那如果整個行政作業太慢的話有再多的美意到最後也都會變質"},{"start":981.158,"end":992.591,"text":"所以在這邊因為下個月部長你任期就滿一年了那我們很期待說這個一年過去了部長可以有很好的成績單交出來這樣子謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時34分）謝謝主席。麻煩請勞動部長。"],["主席：請勞動部長洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。這一次對美的關稅談判主要分為兩個部分，從貿易額來看，分別占32%的一般傳統產業跟68%的電子相關高科技產業，前者是暫定適用20+N，衝擊影響的事業單位和勞工的人數將遠大於後者。首先，就勞動就業市場的衝擊產業，影響最大的大概是有哪些產業？"],["洪部長申翰：現在影響比較大的，目前從數據上面看到的包括金屬製品、機械設備、汽車零組件，也包括其他的運具，裡面滿多是自行車。"],["陳委員瑩：在這些產業當中到底有多少勞工？中小企業的占比？這些數據你們勞動部都有掌握嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["陳委員瑩：所以大概多少勞工？"],["洪部長申翰：在數據上，目前這幾個行業加起來占的比例滿大的。我們現在設定強化版的僱用安定措施所開放的九大行業裡面，總體勞工占所有減班休息勞工大概是八成以上。"],["陳委員瑩：占八成？所以是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：7,106，現在是8,505。在強化版僱用安定措施中，九大行業大概是7,100。"],["陳委員瑩：這是你們剛剛後面算的那些嗎？你剛剛講是減班休息？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員瑩：所以減班休息就是你們唯一的……沒關係，這個後續我會帶到。中小企業占的比例呢？"],["洪部長申翰：中小企業占的比例是比較高的。目前看起來，50人以下的家數是357家。"],["陳委員瑩：50人以下的是357家？對於勞動部所掌握的數據，其實外界有提出質疑，認為嚴重低估。部長剛剛說衝擊的勞工人數大概有四萬兩千……你們說八千多人？"],["洪部長申翰：減班休息的數字目前是8,505。"],["陳委員瑩：是衝擊的……你們那個減班人數，就是受衝擊的只用減班人數去看而已？"],["洪部長申翰：不是。陳委員講的應該是4萬2,000這個數字……"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["洪部長申翰：這4萬2,000並不是勞動部估的，其實是行政院當時……應該是經濟部相關智庫的估計，行政院提供給我們做參考。"],["陳委員瑩：是這樣子的，也有媒體或其他人評估說，這樣的衝擊所涵蓋的勞工至少有20萬人！實際上光製造業的從業人數中，包括食品及飼品製造業，還有紡織業、橡膠製品製造業、塑膠製品製造業等，這九大製造業大概就涵蓋了105萬人。我想請教，勞動部如何推估行政院所公布的4萬2,000人這個數據？如何確認它的正確性？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，你講的105萬這個數字，是我們當時公布適用強化版僱用安定措施的九個行業的總體從業人數是105萬，但並不是這105萬都會受到衝擊，並不是這樣的狀況。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以你們怎麼去推估？因為後來還有一個4萬2,000的……"],["洪部長申翰：4萬2,000應該經濟部智庫所推估出來的數字，行政院請我們來……"],["陳委員瑩：你說什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：經濟部跟他的……"],["陳委員瑩：依據什麼推估出來的？"],["洪部長申翰：其實應該是用了一些研究方法去做這個數字的……"],["陳委員瑩：研究的方法？所以不是去對勞保行業別？他們用什麼樣的研究方法？"],["洪部長申翰：這可能要細看一下他們的……"],["陳委員瑩：會後再提供給我們看是怎麼樣找到這個數字……"],["洪部長申翰：因為4萬2,000主要是經濟部跟智庫所推估出來的，行政院也給我們作為參考用。"],["陳委員瑩：根據勞動部10月1日所公布的最新一期減班休息的數字來看，總人數和家數剛剛有提到，就是8,505人，398家，其中有310廠商表達因為受到關稅的影響，而這部分的總人數大概達到7,755人，占全部通報員工人數的九成；勞動部也表示，本期增加了1,171人，相較於上一期增加的2,471人，成長幅度比較趨於平緩。我想要請教，難道減班休息的人數是勞動部唯一作為衡量關稅衝擊的指標嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：也不是。"],["陳委員瑩：還有沒有其他的？你們其他的……"],["洪部長申翰：還包括資遣、包括大解，即大量解僱，幾個東西我們都……但在其他的數據上，之前的通報並沒有減班休息數字這樣的成長幅度。"],["陳委員瑩：現在有一種狀況，假如產業外移或者關廠歇業了，那麼這些失業的勞工就不會出現在減班休息的統計上？"],["洪部長申翰：對，就會變成是資遣或大解。"],["陳委員瑩：畢竟這些人大概連班都沒有機會減了，所以你們失業統計的母數可能要建立在千萬勞工的大母數基礎上，否則即使有20萬人失業了，所顯示出來的數據與百分比也不會很高。所以我想知道，勞動部對於就業市場有沒有即時且正確的監視指標？有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，資遣的通報或大解其實不會除以母數，所以所看到的還是個數，即人數上面的直接數據。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣，本席在這裡要建議勞動部，你們可以看一下目前受到衝擊的傳統產業，也就是行業別及勞保投保人數有沒有減少？這是每個月都會更新變化的數字，即每個月5號就是雇主申報的期限，如此至少6號在部長桌上就可以有這幾個行業別的投保人數與增減數字。不曉得部長覺得這樣的數據是不是重要？"],["洪部長申翰：是。我再跟委員補充，其實我們會看幾個，即減班休息、解聘的數字，還包括失業給付的數字，因為這幾個數字可以比較敏感地了解到現在就業市場的狀況。"],["陳委員瑩：解聘未必等於產業外移，所以我覺得這部分還是有一些落差。"],["洪部長申翰：解聘後面就是失業。"],["陳委員瑩：我講的是產業外移，解聘未必完全等於產業外移這樣的因素。","再來，這個月的2號你們發布了因應關稅的支持方案跟四大措施，包含鬆綁適用對象、擴增服務內涵以及跨部會資源整合以提高效益等等。其中，第一個措施是主動訪視衝擊，我想請教部長，直到現在你們去訪談工會跟事業單位，有得到什麼樣的結論嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這分成兩個部分：我們去訪談工會……因為會有一些受衝擊與影響的產業並沒有工會，所以我們是請我們的五個分署，從4月到現在半年左右時間，他們聯繫跟訪視的家次加起來差不多有兩萬多次，現在看起來比較嚴重的地方是在中部，例如剛才有講到幾個產業，包括機械業、包括水五金，幾個金屬製品跟其他運輸比較多都在中部。"],["陳委員瑩：經營的風險在雇主，但他不是勞工，所以你們訪視時所做的訪談紀錄，尤其是這些雇主的意見，能不能在會後提供給我們辦公室做參考？"],["洪部長申翰：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。","再來，第二個措施就是強化僱用安定，補貼勞工被減薪或降低工時，你們補助減少的薪資也從五成提高到七成。我想要請教你們是如何周知這些事業單位或者雇主？"],["洪部長申翰：因為他們如果通報的話，都會有聯繫的方式，所以在聯繫方式上，我們都會主動來聯繫跟這些雇主說，其實你可以來申請，包括幫勞工來申請強化版的僱用安定措施；有些勞工其實他也有留下聯絡方式，我們也會主動跟他聯絡，告訴他可以來申請這個薪資差額補貼，我們都會主動聯絡。"],["陳委員瑩：好。再來，受到衝擊再就業的部分，你們要對接失業勞工跟缺工的事業單位，也要提供他們客製化的就業媒合服務，這個部分我們是給予很高的肯定。但是請問，你們要如何具體的執行，然後預估的KPI是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為你剛才講的這個是我們勞工就業通的計畫，勞工就業通的計畫主要是設計給因為關稅等等國際情勢的因素，比方說被解僱而失業的勞工，所以整體的KPI並不是我們自己訂，因為我也不希望這個數字訂很高，因為如果訂很高，代表我們失業的人很多。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以你們的具體執行要怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：我自己覺得我們會希望針對那種因為關稅因素被解僱然後產生失業的狀況，我們會儘量地提高對他們的轉職服務，所以在這個轉職服務裡面，我們也看到，的確蠻多傳統產業其實中高齡的勞工比較多，因為中高齡的勞工多，所以他的職務再設計，或者是其實我們有一些相關的訓練，我們從這部分為中高齡的勞工多做設計，我們希望從這個角度去協助他們。"],["陳委員瑩：你今天這樣回答也是很抽象，因為我不曉得你們要設計什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我剛才說包括我們把這個服務從職務再設計，它原本是其他的計畫，我們把它給整合進來。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，因為今天時間差不多了，我想這個會後也希望你們可以做比較詳細的補充。","最後一個措施是青年接軌職場，初次尋職青年依規定報名參加計畫，完成各項求職準備，然後未能找到工作者就發給尋職津貼。這個部分聽起來好像是一個既有的計畫，再來就是參加計畫期間找到工作且穩定就業者就發給就業獎金，最高合計發到4.8萬元，這是一個既有的計畫，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：它不是既有的計畫。當然過去也有針對青年尋職的部分，但因為這次的關稅議題，我們考量到會有一些企業在遇到關稅衝擊的時候，他可能會縮減給年輕人一開始的就業機會，所以當時我們經過一些學者的討論，認為我們其實應該要對於年輕人的尋職有一個強化版的作法，所以剛剛……"],["陳委員瑩：因為我是看不出來這個跟之前有什麼差別……"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，我們提高了津貼的額度……"],["陳委員瑩：這個就是三萬多到四萬多嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，然後我們也把適用的範圍放寬，包括過去其實是要尋職90天，我們現在把它縮減到60天就可以。"],["陳委員瑩：這個就是說60天的計畫……縮到60天？"],["洪部長申翰：他60天沒有工作，原本是要90天，我們現在把它縮短到60天就可以。"],["陳委員瑩：但是縮短60天符合，那這樣子的期間大概總共要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：計畫是三個月，就是他求職找到的是三個月，我們會給他相關的津貼。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那你們怎麼樣去定義「初次尋職」？這個定義你們要怎麼定義？"],["洪部長申翰：他就是第一次找工作的狀況。"],["陳委員瑩：第一次找工作？"],["洪部長申翰：在我們的紀錄上面是看得到的，對。"],["陳委員瑩：如果你們在紀錄上，你們有紀錄的話……"],["洪部長申翰：對，在投保紀錄上面是看得到的。"],["陳委員瑩：好。我想這個部分，我們希望可以有一些更令人有感的措施，今天在這邊我提醒了很多點，畢竟我們的關稅現在還在談，有些衝擊浪潮要過一段時間才會慢慢的湧現，所以在這裡要特別提醒你們，麻煩你們要隨時注意現有方案措施的成效。特別是很多都是有時效性的，如果整個行政作業太慢的話，再多的美意到最後也都會變質。下個月部長你的任期就滿一年了，我們很期待一年過去了，部長可以有很好的成績單交出來這樣子。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。接下來請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62bdef095981724b3d119d4e8153da54ef5dd0128aa318ab8e7fa58c9f4dc8bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:49:16 - 12:00:46","影片長度":"00:11:30","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T11:49:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T12:00:46+08:00","duration":690,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.62846875,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.242218750000003,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.53659375,"end":32.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.37596875,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.13909375,"end":39.096593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.53534375,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.993468750000005,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.41034375,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.688468750000006,"end":62.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.05909375,"end":66.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.42971875,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.04971875000001,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.59784375000001,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.52534375,"end":80.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.48659375000001,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.49034375000001,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.69659375,"end":90.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.05471875,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.69471875,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.37784375000001,"end":103.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.04409375,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.37284375,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.58346875000001,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.95034375,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.68346875,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.38784375,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.15096875,"end":124.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":125.54721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.99846875000001,"end":128.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.11659375,"end":127.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.19659375,"end":129.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.26409375,"end":128.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.98534375,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.03596875,"end":130.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.15409375000002,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.79534375,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.11159375,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.27909375000002,"end":141.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.13534375,"end":143.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.53596875,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.36221875,"end":149.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.97784375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.95221875000001,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.19221875000002,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":157.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.63909375,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.20409375,"end":168.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.95409375,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.34096875,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.42034375,"end":183.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.15409375000002,"end":201.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.63471875000002,"end":187.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.78846875000002,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.10471875000002,"end":206.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.68221875,"end":207.61034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.30221875,"end":210.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.76596875,"end":212.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.89221875,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.51534375000003,"end":222.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.86534375000002,"end":227.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.70846875,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.97409375,"end":228.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.24409375000002,"end":233.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.98659375000003,"end":230.37471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.94846875000002,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.33221875,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.96034375000002,"end":236.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.47471875000002,"end":240.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.90471875000003,"end":242.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.74409375000002,"end":253.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.25721875000002,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.11721875,"end":258.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.89346875,"end":266.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.44159375000004,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.26346875,"end":267.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.12409375000004,"end":270.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.17409375,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.86971875,"end":281.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.75909375000003,"end":283.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.79284375000003,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.64471875000004,"end":299.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.89659375,"end":293.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.98471875,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.64659375,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.38409375000003,"end":308.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.93221875,"end":309.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.77159375,"end":318.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.77909375,"end":316.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.66909375,"end":326.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.44471875,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.96784375000004,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.76034375,"end":329.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.54909375,"end":329.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.47721875,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":333.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.08846875,"end":334.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.10534375000003,"end":335.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.20221875000004,"end":337.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.13846875,"end":360.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.68346875000003,"end":366.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.24784375,"end":367.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.26034375,"end":388.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.65471875000003,"end":382.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.84784375000004,"end":389.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.45534375,"end":402.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.04096875000005,"end":395.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.73596875000004,"end":407.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.37659375000004,"end":408.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.30471875,"end":412.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.14784375000005,"end":426.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.10534375000003,"end":415.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.84721875,"end":420.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.12034375,"end":428.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.45346875,"end":428.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.43221875,"end":430.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.22534375000004,"end":432.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.67659375000005,"end":435.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.17846875000004,"end":433.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.03909375,"end":448.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.78784375000004,"end":451.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.11221875,"end":453.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.18784375,"end":456.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.78221875,"end":459.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.99284375,"end":471.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.63659375000003,"end":472.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.02471875000003,"end":497.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.81096875000003,"end":490.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.80534375,"end":500.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.19721875000005,"end":509.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.53346875000005,"end":511.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.7609687500001,"end":513.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.03096875,"end":513.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.0984687499999,"end":513.6553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.6553437499999,"end":513.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.39346875,"end":522.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.5022187500001,"end":538.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.7609687500001,"end":545.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.0047187499999,"end":548.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.10971875,"end":553.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.9697187500001,"end":555.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.85534375,"end":557.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.7959687499999,"end":564.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.9890937499999,"end":567.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.3640937499999,"end":572.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.8484687499999,"end":576.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.33784375,"end":575.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.72159375,"end":576.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.54846875,"end":576.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.6284687500001,"end":579.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.9740937500001,"end":591.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.3897187499999,"end":604.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.10096875,"end":606.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.9909687500001,"end":610.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.3447187500001,"end":623.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.8828437500001,"end":624.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.0134687500001,"end":625.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.65034375,"end":627.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.87784375,"end":629.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.71721875,"end":638.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.2978437500001,"end":646.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.27159375,"end":654.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.89909375,"end":659.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.82659375,"end":666.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.8759687500001,"end":669.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.96846875,"end":670.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.03159375,"end":674.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.9084687500001,"end":681.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.1015937500001,"end":689.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.9778437500001,"end":691.6528437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":26.527,"end":49.094,"text":"請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年"},{"start":51.018,"end":80.661,"text":"我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦但是我的記憶不一定完整"},{"start":81.536,"end":109.871,"text":"沒有一個嘛 我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊 嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有 蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成"},{"start":111.004,"end":137.092,"text":"很多人還恢復不了八成喔 跟你年資還有關係喔要服務滿40年才有到八成喔那考試院 你剛才說的不是只有行政院啊 那考試院在做什麼事情你們要審定啊 對不對 法定你的法律 審定是不是你的法定義務你做了嗎那個我們現在已經 上次已經 因為有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成"},{"start":140.527,"end":159.584,"text":"這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會欸總統公告法律就正式實施嘛 對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯 4月25號就應該"},{"start":162.086,"end":179.48,"text":"結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告 當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆"},{"start":181.465,"end":207.275,"text":"所以我們必須 而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那不是退伏法 那是根據警察條例所以內政部 老實說全者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動要內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統 各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多就緒了那等到12月底以前你為什麼 你剛剛都知道法定預算"},{"start":208.659,"end":236.43,"text":"總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥啦對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會"},{"start":238.493,"end":263.979,"text":"你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你所以我沒有辦法接受你用權勢不失職這個職業來"},{"start":268.24,"end":280.687,"text":"我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開了"},{"start":284.687,"end":308.37,"text":"你從4月29號開會 5月16 5月28 6月25到7月30啊你的結論都一樣 你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好 還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程在會議過程你根本就對得起公教人員會議過程裡面就是全 我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後 在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部"},{"start":309.79,"end":324.465,"text":"我不是這樣講 我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責之後 那我們協助也開發計謀問題在內政部 當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責所以核定決定是我你等一下 我想必須定邊緯省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責"},{"start":334.921,"end":359.988,"text":"你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾"},{"start":360.928,"end":387.977,"text":"系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題那現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁做核定這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯"},{"start":389.437,"end":412.474,"text":"第一個 你已經嚴重違法 拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你 你現在拖到現在沒給來 必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給 你到時候要補嗎這是一個 第一要補 利息要不要算進去他現在 問題是你法律出來生效了之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定 就是法定預算已經夠了啊"},{"start":413.254,"end":426.414,"text":"所以我剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編嘛對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛對不對蛤"},{"start":430.4,"end":456.482,"text":"什麼叫不會當年入片 他的權利就從是從這個法律分架之後 哇 你這樣嚴重對不起不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔你整個法制的那個觀念 基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案啊你們現在拖延這麼久 你們現在還說不是從4月25號喔是從4月25號啊啊你今天幾號 今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定"},{"start":457.79,"end":478.497,"text":"然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後呢我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就撥給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部"},{"start":478.917,"end":497.025,"text":"到現在算不出來 你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要 我問你好 那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底 快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你 賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個 理事是要什麼"},{"start":502.727,"end":511.455,"text":"我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢啊對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你利息錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心"},{"start":515.441,"end":537.726,"text":"是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在啦但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定嘛結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到警消人員的權益嘛所以我問你啊第一你有沒有瀆職的問題第二個對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家"},{"start":539.79,"end":567.308,"text":"你少算 你現在給 四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數喔 你們有沒有法治觀念啊你數學再不好一點 你拖到明年才算好喔 就到明年才能領喔這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果再算兩年 兩年後比較便宜是不是"},{"start":568.407,"end":591.153,"text":"去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來我接著要問一個很重要的事情現在議員還可以等我一下嗎現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡"},{"start":593.607,"end":603.565,"text":"剛剛秘書長也承認嘛 法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼 不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算 法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛"},{"start":605.328,"end":629.786,"text":"蕭美琴提過花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊 過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴青的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在嘻哈拼水杯還對不起 對不起全國民眾他竟然講說 我申請釋憲 按個 按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給他把自己當上帝了"},{"start":630.765,"end":645.976,"text":"都侵犯到霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了"},{"start":647.912,"end":673.289,"text":"勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產 人家每一年都爭取到一千億的最近三年 已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧 如果怕你在講 你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取耶 你還少撥補耶你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊 好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產 結果你又沒有積極去爭取"},{"start":676.244,"end":688.395,"text":"一起努力啦 更重要的 我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退 把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦 已經法定預算過了守法 而且趕快不要再霸凌不要再欺負我們的警消人員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1052,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時49分）謝謝主席，請劉秘書長跟施部長。"],["主席：請秘書長跟施部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：秘書長，你是從野百合出身的，很貼近民意，而且好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與，特別是蔡英文總統的8年。我現在問一個非常重要的問題，在蔡英文執政的8年期間，甚至往前推陳水扁的8年，民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算，在總統公告以後，行政院沒有編列預算的嗎？行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦，但是我的記憶不一定完整。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有一個嘛！我也問了卓榮泰嘛，舉不出來，嘴巴堵住啊！以前陳水扁沒有蔡英文沒有，現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨，變成專制退步黨，是一代不如一代嗎？可是考試院也有責任啊，這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成，很多人還恢復不了八成，這跟年資還有關係，要服務滿40年才有到八成喔。但考試院，你剛剛說的，不是只有行政院，考試院要做什麼事情？你們要審定啊，對不對？部長？"],["施部長能傑：對，我們要負責做審定。"],["張委員啓楷：審定是不是你的法定義務？"],["施部長能傑：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你做了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我們現在已經……上次已經講過，要有系統的從個資上去做，我們會在年底以前把它全部完成。"],["張委員啓楷：這個法案什麼時候通過的？總統什麼時候公告？"],["施部長能傑：四月多吧。"],["張委員啓楷：我們是法治社會耶！總統公告的法律就要正式實施嘛，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有錯？你都知道沒錯，4月25號就應該……"],["施部長能傑：不過我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：結果你這個負責審定的機關，現在過去多久了？五個多月了，你到現在還沒有審定好喔！"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，當初年改的時候也是花了很長時間，因為數量非常、非常多，所以需要一個、一個審定，我們警察人員已經退的，現在大概有3萬7,000筆，而且這中間還涉及到到底誰要負責這個，因為那不是退撫法，而是根據警察條例，所以老實說權責是在內政部，後來我們部裡面主動邀內政部，說大家好好來談這個事情，我們願意來做這個事情，開發系統及各式各樣的工作，所以目前已經差不多就緒了，等到12月底以前……"],["張委員啓楷：你都知道法定預算在總統公告開始法律就生效了，那錢就要撥啦，對不對？結果到現在已經五個多月都還沒有下來，你這不是嚴重的失職嗎？你是數學不好還是故意在拖延？"],["施部長能傑：銓敘部沒有失職。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有失職？來，我們來看，你開這個會是怎麼樣？以會養會還是故意在拖延？"],["施部長能傑：沒有故意拖延，如果你更清楚了解在相關會議中內政部跟我們的過程……"],["張委員啓楷：來，看一下銓敘部跟內政部開的會，你這個叫議而不決嘛！你看你的結論都一樣喔，好幾個……"],["施部長能傑：委員，如果議而不決，我就不會說我們在12月底以前會完成這個事情，一開始的時候，確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情……"],["張委員啓楷：你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛！4月25號，你為什麼要拖這麼久？"],["施部長能傑：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，你為什麼拖這麼久？這已經是不對了……"],["施部長能傑：委員，我一向尊重你，所以我沒辦法接受你用銓敘部失職這個字眼。"],["張委員啓楷：時間拖太久了！第二個，你看看你們的開會內容，我整理出來了你們開的5次會的內容，大概有3到4次的結論都是「所需經費來源及預算編列等事宜，由內政部持續洽財主單位確認」……"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯啊！"],["張委員啓楷：這樣開一次就好了，你從4月29號開第一次會，5月16號、5月28號、6月25號及7月30號也有開會，你的結論都一樣，你開這個是什麼會？你是數學不好還是你根本就是故意……"],["施部長能傑：委員，您知道這個會議過程……"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣怎麼對得起公教人員？"],["施部長能傑：在會議過程裡面，我們有這樣一個說法，但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑義，所以在最後一次會議才做確認。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你說問題在內政部？"],["施部長能傑：我不是這樣講，我是說這個事情本來就是根據警察條例修的法，所以這個部分要內政部負責，我們協助，也開發系統……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說問題在內政部，當然內政部的責任我們會去追清楚，可是這個核定是誰要負責？"],["施部長能傑：對，核定權一定是我。"],["張委員啓楷：你等一下，我問秘書長，編預算在行政部門，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這個核定誰負責？"],["劉秘書長建忻：核定是銓敘部負責，所以突然之間……"],["張委員啓楷：你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：不是，委員，法律一通過，突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定，有好幾萬人嘛，公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間，就像當年年改突然調整了給付方式之後，我們也用了很長的時間去做準備，所以這幾個月銓敘部都沒有停下來。就審定的部分，我們也承諾，系統開發出來，年底之前這個是可以完成，大家會收到那個審定函，沒有問題，現在的問題就在於說，如果他是依照原來的退撫法所可以拿到的退休金，這個都是我們的責任，如果因為警察人事條例修正而多出來要拿的部分，那個編列預算跟未來預算的編列是行政院的部分，所以我們的部分其實都有在做，我想公務同仁核定這些都非常的努力，因為一筆一筆都不能錯，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，你已經嚴重違法、拖延太久了，本來4月25號生效你就要給了，我問你……"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個不會一夕之間生出來。"],["張委員啓楷：你拖到現在沒給，秘書長，我問你，你拖到現在沒給，到時候要補嗎？這是第一個。第二個，如果要補，利息要不要算進去？"],["劉秘書長建忻：現在的問題是法律突然生效之後，那個預算也不存在啊，所以怎麼……"],["張委員啓楷：什麼叫不存在？"],["劉秘書長建忻：預算沒有編。"],["張委員啓楷：法定預算已經過啦！所以我剛剛不是一開始問你，喔，你怎麼會連法律案過了……"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，是法律案過了，但是還沒有預算嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：法定預算，你如果核定完之後，錢就必須編嘛，對不對？而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：編不會當年度編啊！"],["張委員啓楷：啊？"],["施部長能傑：不會是當年度編啊！"],["張委員啓楷：什麼叫不會當年度編？4月25號……"],["劉秘書長建忻：他的權益就從法律生效之後開始……"],["張委員啓楷：哇，你們這樣嚴重對不起……不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔，你整個法治的基本觀念都沒有，總統已經公告要實施這個法律案，你們拖延這麼久，現在竟然還說不是從4月25號喔？"],["施部長能傑：是從4月25號啊！"],["張委員啓楷：今天幾號了？今天幾號？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告過啊，三萬多人需要一個一個核定，我們的行政作業程序就是這樣，我們一旦核定完以後，我們就有分基金的錢，根據退撫法，一核定完那個錢就撥給你，現在差的是那個差額。"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在跟全國的民眾講，一個4月25號就通過的三讀條文，總統公告了，結果銓敘部到現在算不出來，你看會不會笑掉人家大牙，在全世界可能都是個笑話，更重要的，你4月25號錢就該給嘛，我現在問你最基本的，到時候這個錢是要補回去，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對啊，如果……"],["張委員啓楷：你說要算到年底，不能到年底，快一點啦！我跟你講，現在如果去告你瀆職可能都成立了，瀆職都成立了啦。第二個，利息的錢要算嗎？我本來4月25號拿到錢、4月26號拿到錢啊，對不對？最多也就一個月，你現在拖到年底才給我，利息錢要不要算？我可不可以要求國賠？你將心比心，是不是？"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果法律生效，他的權益都在啦，但是這個錢不會一夕之間，這個行政程序也不會一夕之間被完成。"],["張委員啓楷：本來應該4月26號就要給了，你要儘快的完成這個審定嘛，結果你審定拖到現在都沒給，你侵犯到警消人員的權益嘛，所以我問你：第一個，你有沒有瀆職的問題？第二個，對人家的權益損害，人家可不可以要求國賠？你在算的時候，利息要不要還給人家？你少算的、你在拖的，你現在給、4月給跟你再拖到明年給，都你們自己作主喔，你們有沒有法治觀念啊？你如果數學再不好一點，你拖到明年才算好，我就到明年才能領喔？這樣是法治社會嗎？是不是這樣？我什麼時候可以領到我的法定預算？是你們的作業一拖再拖，你如果要再算兩年，就兩年後再編，是不是？去想一想，你怎麼會這麼離譜！","來，我接著要問一個很重要的事情，不好意思，主席，再給我……易餘，可以再等我一下嘛！"],["主席：最後1分鐘，好嗎？謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：現在人民最生氣的，一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來，你剛剛還跟我說要拖到年底，這已經是嚴重失職了！更令人生氣的是行政院，行政院怎麼可以說立法院通過了，但他去聲請釋憲就停在那裡，剛剛秘書長也承認嘛，法定預算過了，其實以前什麼老農津貼，不管是國民黨執政或民進黨執政，老農津貼增加預算，法案過了就編嘛，不管哪一個黨嘛。蕭美琴提過花東發展條例，對不對？那就是個法案啊，過了預算就編啊，卓榮泰跟賴清德政府是全臺灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的，結果他們現在竟然還「死鴨子嘴硬」，對不起全國民眾，他竟然講說因為聲請釋憲，按個暫停鍵，這筆錢就可以不用給，他把自己當上帝了，都侵犯、霸凌到軍人跟警消人員啊，這要嚴重抗議的。","我最後用1分鐘，抱歉。我問一下，剛剛一直在講公教人員的退休金問題，我覺得部長你是嚴重失職，勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產，人家每一年都爭取到1,000億耶，最近三年已經三千多億了，你應該是要照顧……如果像你講的，你怕這個基金破產，那你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極爭取？你不只沒有爭取，你還少撥補耶，你這不是嚴重失職嗎？跟勞動部看齊，好不好？不要一直嘴巴上講說破產，結果你又沒有積極去爭取，一起努力啦！","更重要的，我們是個法治社會嘛，不要一直「倒退噜」的把根挖掉，警消人員那麼辛苦，法定預算已經過了，要守法，而且要趕快，不要再霸凌、不要再欺負我們的警消人員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員的質詢，也請考試院秘書長這邊要注意有關於警消人員的權益問題，我們的法律都已經生效了，就應該要立刻實施。如果說在審定的程序上稍微晚一點，但是要補那個差額，退休金這個事情也應該要公開的跟所有的退休警消人員講，讓他們安心，政府一定會把這筆錢如實的交到他們的手上。不能說現在行政院就不編預算，然後你們考試院也沒有作為，也沒有積極去爭取，我覺得這樣是不對的。剛剛其實張委員講的是很有道理的，我也不斷的在說，如果今天換成是一般企業的雇主，他可以這樣欠發勞工的薪水嗎？這早就違反勞基法了！這些退休的公務人員、公教人員、警消人員已經很忍耐，一直在等待，看政府什麼時候可以把這個錢撥給他們，不要忘記刑法上面有一個叫抑留剋扣罪，依法要發給的款項你不發給就是違反刑法的相關規定，我希望考試院可以站在維護這些退休警消人員的立場上，要去跟行政院反映，不要忘記，在權力分立的這個體制上面，你們和行政院是平行的，行政院沒有比你們大，拜託，請考試院一定要積極地去爭取警消人員的權益，謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員發言。","對不起，我這邊先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來是伍麗華委員，伍麗華委員，伍麗華委員不在。","葉元之委員，葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員發言。","不好意思，葉委員，還是讓蔡易餘委員先發言好了，次序上交換一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62eb27a2d6cae20016119d4e8153da54efdcf33aa1b58936823c5bd6785be991ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:35:27 - 11:49:07","影片長度":"00:13:40","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T11:35:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:49:07+08:00","duration":820,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":5.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.594718750000002,"end":11.168468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.62846875,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.67034375,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.665968750000001,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.812843750000003,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.52909375,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.43346875,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.508468750000006,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.744718750000004,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.018468750000004,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.229093750000004,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.94471875,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.99096875000001,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.79471875,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.14284375000001,"end":147.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.65659375000001,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.87596875000001,"end":127.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.72096875,"end":153.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.60596875000002,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.71096875,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.02721875,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.04409375,"end":159.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.66846875000002,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.33909375000002,"end":161.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.86221875,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.09846875000002,"end":162.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.53721875000002,"end":165.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.60409375,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.07971875,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.58596875,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.93596875,"end":176.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.99909375000001,"end":182.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.56784375,"end":188.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.35159375,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.84471875,"end":197.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.94096875000002,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.72971875000002,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.34909375,"end":210.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.08659375000002,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.05659375000002,"end":220.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.85284375,"end":224.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.73409375000003,"end":226.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.50596875000002,"end":228.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.15971875000002,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.62784375,"end":232.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.49659375000002,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.11659375000002,"end":237.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.40721875000003,"end":240.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.75284375,"end":241.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.10284375,"end":245.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.78159375,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.97846875000002,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.12159375,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.00721875,"end":269.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.91284375000004,"end":273.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.70534375,"end":279.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.66221875,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.21346875,"end":293.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.20034375,"end":293.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.41534375000003,"end":297.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.73971875,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.75659375000004,"end":300.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.79846875000004,"end":307.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.43846875,"end":310.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.11721875,"end":313.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.74971875,"end":318.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.67721875,"end":320.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.92159375,"end":325.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.59596875,"end":328.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.57034375,"end":329.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.59971875,"end":330.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.56159375000004,"end":336.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.69971875000005,"end":340.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.14221875000004,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.94784375,"end":344.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.15409375,"end":348.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.29284375000003,"end":351.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.92534375,"end":357.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.43909375000004,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.64909375,"end":365.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.89784375000005,"end":374.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.83721875000003,"end":378.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.38096875,"end":380.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.57034375,"end":383.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.37159375000005,"end":386.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.97471875,"end":398.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.92221875,"end":400.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.66034375000004,"end":401.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.56721875000005,"end":406.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.54534375000003,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.69909375000003,"end":425.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.61846875000003,"end":426.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.28909375,"end":432.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.84096875,"end":433.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.12346875000003,"end":435.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.55784375,"end":437.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.62909375000004,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.95346875,"end":457.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.90034375000005,"end":459.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.30096875000004,"end":462.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.38471875000005,"end":467.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.46409375,"end":469.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.31596875,"end":473.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.57284375,"end":475.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.12534375,"end":476.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.09971875,"end":479.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.90534375000004,"end":481.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.40284375000005,"end":485.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.09846875000005,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.48596875000004,"end":492.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.59096875000006,"end":498.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.82221875000005,"end":500.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.77971875000003,"end":502.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.61471875,"end":506.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.68596875000003,"end":511.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.42784375,"end":518.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.5109687500001,"end":520.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.08409375,"end":524.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.96159375,"end":526.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.66596875,"end":527.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.77534375,"end":534.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.23846875,"end":536.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.19596875,"end":541.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.83221875,"end":545.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.8190937500001,"end":546.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.18596875,"end":551.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.97846875,"end":557.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.42909375,"end":558.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.0278437500001,"end":561.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.3059687500001,"end":563.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.02721875,"end":565.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.0522187500001,"end":568.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.41471875,"end":574.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.46846875,"end":580.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.01596875,"end":584.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.9184687500001,"end":589.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.89659375,"end":593.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.1828437500001,"end":600.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.78096875,"end":602.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.25721875,"end":619.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.69784375,"end":624.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.0178437500001,"end":632.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.54846875,"end":635.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.06659375,"end":637.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.8003437500001,"end":642.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.62659375,"end":644.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.47034375,"end":645.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.7022187499999,"end":645.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.90471875,"end":647.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.74846875,"end":646.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.9128437500001,"end":648.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.98846875,"end":652.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.5872187500001,"end":652.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.21159375,"end":655.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.9409687500001,"end":659.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.67034375,"end":661.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.63221875,"end":662.1553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.5434687500001,"end":666.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.11659375,"end":668.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.1753437500001,"end":673.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.87909375,"end":675.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.8703437500001,"end":678.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.7390937499999,"end":680.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.8359687500001,"end":690.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.35909375,"end":681.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.18034375,"end":693.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.3190937500001,"end":695.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.54659375,"end":698.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.76971875,"end":701.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.26721875,"end":704.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.96721875,"end":708.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.45596875,"end":710.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.3459687500001,"end":717.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.9397187500001,"end":718.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.9565937500001,"end":719.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.1084687500002,"end":719.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.28971875,"end":722.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.70284375,"end":724.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.79971875,"end":724.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.6940937500001,"end":724.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.8459687500001,"end":725.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.03159375,"end":725.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.08221875,"end":725.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.7234687499999,"end":726.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.74034375,"end":725.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.05659375,"end":728.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.8959687500001,"end":731.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.22034375,"end":734.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.46034375,"end":750.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.91784375,"end":754.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.15346875,"end":758.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.06846875,"end":762.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.03409375,"end":771.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.3703437500001,"end":776.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.4622187500001,"end":779.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.90909375,"end":788.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":789.34221875,"end":793.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.3078437500001,"end":796.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":796.66596875,"end":802.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.0109687500001,"end":806.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.6684687500001,"end":811.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.5959687500001,"end":813.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.0134687500001,"end":816.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.14784375,"end":818.9240937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.97,"end":5.752,"text":"好主席有請那個考選部長全序部長跟保訓會主委我想先請我們的部長就是那個全序部長立法院已經三讀通過警察"},{"start":23.311,"end":52.127,"text":"人員人事條例修正案嘛你知道嘛 對不對我知道那讓警察 消防 海巡 移民 空總人員可以提高退休的所得替代率讓他們退休生活更有保障嘛那我知道全區部當時是反對這個立法嘛那現在修法已經通過部長還是維持反對的立場嗎對 我還是維持反對但是我們會根據法例我剛剛已經報告過該我們做的事情我們都在執行中好 非常好你要執行 在執行中"},{"start":53.103,"end":63.722,"text":"那我要特別再強調啦警察、消防、海巡、移民跟空總人員所執行的勤務都是全序部認定高度圍牢職務沒錯嘛 對不對"},{"start":66.01,"end":85.289,"text":"所以這也是我們修法的一個原因那麼你像警察踩輪班制作息日夜顛倒還時常要長勤務來停修那因此他們的所得替代率我們有一個特殊的保障"},{"start":86.21,"end":105.601,"text":"那這個部分是當初一個立法目的那你也知道內政部警政署統計數字顯示警消的平均死亡年齡是75歲但我們國人平均壽命是81歲相比壽命差距達6年之多那我想請教一下為什麼會差那麼多"},{"start":108.053,"end":131.153,"text":"退休以後的平均餘命怎麼做跟很多因素影響不過我跟委員報告那一個數字可能大家可以再做double check一下我印象中我們部裡面掌握的數字應該沒有差到那麼多沒關係你把數字再給我看好不好你不要口頭說數字不一樣數字拿給我看我們這也是看到政府相關的數字我們才拿出來的"},{"start":132.154,"end":153.351,"text":"權序部一再稱 危牢職務可以提早退休 債值待遇較高可是事實上你沒去想過 他們平均壽命為什麼那麼短其實跟他們的勤務有關 跟他們職務關係有關不用講別的 你拿錦霄來講的話 錦霄的殉職的可能性就比一般公務員高得多得多沒錯吧"},{"start":157.782,"end":173.605,"text":"我沒有實際的數字但是理論上應該是會那你如果要推翻理論你就實際數字拿出來所以在這邊我要跟這個部長講為什麼在這些事情的立場上我是立場比較強硬的"},{"start":174.816,"end":203.167,"text":"原因就是因為我們就是社會治安就靠警察保護我們都受警察保護的人打火兄弟每次出生入死大家也看到只要他們在火場當中殉職我們所有政府官員排排站全部去攻擊因此對於這些所謂的警消的退休生活的保障我們願意來去這是我們應該要給他的一個退休生活保障的一個"},{"start":203.976,"end":232.272,"text":"特別的禮遇但是很遺憾今天我們看到政府處理態度並不相同這是我們剛剛講就是說如果政府都不願意善待他們最近我們的政府很喜歡講要強化社會韌性跟民防韌性強化社會韌性強化民防韌性對待警消的人員友善一點然後能夠從他們立場多照顧一點"},{"start":233.53,"end":259.09,"text":"那不就是一種社會任性跟民防任性的強化嗎那最後我接下來就要問了事實上我們為什麼今天通過這個就是警察人人事條例要來去提高他退休後的所得替代率提高他退休的保障今天非常遺憾行政院就跟你講不編預算了"},{"start":260.246,"end":279.497,"text":"剛剛你已經講了說全序部也做好準備啦因為立法院法律通過了嘛你個人反對都有尊重你的反對但立法院今天就是民意機關大家已經通過這個法律我想請教一下部長請問如果行政院不編預算請問你接下來工作怎麼進行啊你能進行嗎"},{"start":281.34,"end":296.206,"text":"因為根據我們憲法跟預算法的規定這個所有的中央政府總預算案的編制權是在行政院所以這個事情行政院當然啦我知道所以沒為難你嘛我剛剛質詢有為難你嗎沒有吧沒有預算你也做不了事嘛不是嗎 沒錯吧"},{"start":297.779,"end":325.272,"text":"我們就是按照我們該做的事情這事應該也沒有為難你啦這事你就回答就做不了事就對了啦你沒有預算怎麼做事告訴我你掏腰包嗎 部長你會掏腰包嗎叫你掏腰包也不公平嘛 對不對所以你就做不了事嘛今天我要特別講為什麼在野黨要提出復議第一個原因就是坦白講我們覺得行政院這樣欺負警校我們是看不下去啦"},{"start":326.67,"end":350.713,"text":"全區部都說他們是危險勤務的人員他們對我們國家在前面保障治安保障人民的生命財產安全立法院法律都通過了 我們是民意機關我還是要再次強調我不為難你 不叫你回答行政院現在提這個四線的說法坦白講是在欺騙社會大眾"},{"start":352.028,"end":380.561,"text":"因為我相信你當公務員當部長當公務員這麼久我們也是我在政府單位也服務過非常清楚是要釋憲的程序嘛釋憲程序很簡單啦行政院是有權釋憲沒錯啦但是呢在大法官會議做出所謂的緊急處分緊急處分就有凍結法律的效果嘛沒錯吧對不對他做緊急處分他可以凍結這個法律嘛他在做緊急處分之前沒有凍結這個法律之前這法律是有效還是無效"},{"start":382.705,"end":406.086,"text":"這法律就是有效的啊那你今天在法律有效的情況下你跟我講說等大法官會解釋出來你才要編預算這本身就是危險啦侵犯立法權的核心更重要我當然知道現在行政院也不在乎立法權啦可是重點是什麼你也是在欺負我們的警察消防這些危險勤務人員"},{"start":407.588,"end":433.243,"text":"同樣的道理 這個當然跟權序部可能不是你主管了立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例除了提高自願加級對於訓練勤務繁重的戰鬥部隊弟兄也提高他們的加級這個你總知道吧 這個法律通過你知道了雖然不是你們主管啦其實這個情況跟我剛剛前面講的那個警消的狀況是相同的所以"},{"start":434.372,"end":462.173,"text":"結果一樣我們行政院還是不編預算啊還是不編預算啊在野黨說真的我們到現在為止都非常善意的像我們本來上禮拜本來有提退回總預算嘛後來我們商量以後跟在野黨商量以後覺得說不要用退回的方式等於讓行政院還可以有個再思考的機會所以我們就是沒有把退回案我們把退回案這個打住"},{"start":463.479,"end":486.987,"text":"然後我們現在改用的方式是提出復議提出復議其實用意就是給行政院一個機會不要把今天警消跟軍人的權益當作是一個政治鬥爭的籌碼比方說以軍人來講我們國防預算明年要高達9495億佔據率3.32%"},{"start":493.609,"end":520.544,"text":"比今年要增加1768億是史上最高但是我們看到行政院還是就是不編軍人的預算事實上我們現在兩岸我覺得我這樣講兩岸之間兵兇戰危大家都擔心戰爭發生的可能性請問部長嘛戰爭發生以後是誰去保家衛國是誰嘛答案應該很清楚吧 部長"},{"start":525.031,"end":541.585,"text":"那最重要在前線 衝鋒陷陣守住疆土 甚至犧牲生命最重要的最前線是誰 當然是國軍嘛 沒錯嘛那這種情況之下而且我們現在國軍邊線比都不夠啊軍校招生都越來越少啊"},{"start":542.915,"end":564.814,"text":"原因是什麼 就是你今天不能夠一直用要他們去付出生命的代價但是又告訴他我不想要改善你的待遇我們今天國民黨其實在野黨就是因為看到兩岸之間可能有戰爭的風險所以今天我們希望能夠給軍人合理的待遇"},{"start":566.184,"end":593.133,"text":"讓他們覺得今天當然保家衛國是他們光榮的責任啦他們會這麼認為因為我們的軍人是有愛國心的可是你也不能是因為他有愛國心就跟我講說啊沒關係待遇你就你就不要計較了這是為什麼今天我們要提出這個軍人待遇條例的一個修正的一個最重要原因所以在這邊齁我這邊也表達今天為什麼我們今天提出復議案再次請喔"},{"start":594.246,"end":618.506,"text":"我們的行政院可以好好想想我們的軍人警消的一個情況那接下來我就要講就是說我們國民黨團已經將停侃公教年金的公務人員退休之前撫恤法以及公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤法列為本會期的要優先通過的法案 對不對"},{"start":619.767,"end":645.126,"text":"我想請教部長你還是反對停侃公教年金嗎是不是我還是要從整個基金財務的角度呢提供這個說明然後我覺得幫我們把財務狀況做更清楚的說明大家好好討論你剛剛前面都已經講過我知道啦你的論點我一向都知道我想請教一件事情你知道你剛剛講說基金什麼破產啊什麼的問題嘛對不對是不是沒錯吧他會歸零歸零嘛來來來那我想請教"},{"start":650.131,"end":678.449,"text":"你知道我們勞保有類似的問題吧?一樣勞動部的回答是什麼?這幾年撥補了三千多億人沒錯吧?對每年都有撥補每年都有撥補他還是有破產問題對不對跟你一樣嘛你知道勞動部怎麼講嗎?勞動部說政府有最後支付責任勞保絕對不會倒大家請放心很有魄力啊那我就問了公教是二等公民嗎?"},{"start":679.781,"end":708.469,"text":"是嗎我支持喔我先講不要被扣帽子我支持勞保政府負擔最後支付責任勞保絕對不能倒我支持但是我要幫我們公教人員講一句話為什麼到公教人員這個政府的肩膀就不見了第三個我要跟部長講部長講我都沒有為難你都沒有為難你因為這所謂的雙標的問題我覺得你也不好回答"},{"start":709.5,"end":733.811,"text":"第二 第三 我跟你講請問我們今天提的案子是要回到2018年以前的所謂的年金水準嗎 是嗎是不是沒有 是112年停止調降有112跟113停砍嘛 對不對所以不是要回到你的所謂的年金之前的狀況嘛我跟部長講一件事情"},{"start":735.526,"end":762.304,"text":"我們也遇到太多太多我們現在公教人員我相信你不否認啦台灣不管時代建設激進奇蹟然後包括說今天我們台積電的建設都有很多優秀公務員在後面撥話這些公教人員在我們國家發展過程當中是我們最中間安定的力量今天卑微到什麼程度我就用個比喻跟你講啦你年金砍了這麼多年你把他血跟肉都砍掉了啦"},{"start":763.103,"end":788.024,"text":"今天非常卑微是說不是要回到把血肉補回來只是求求你骨跟筋不要再斷它嘛手跟腳不要再斷它嘛肉跟血都被你砍了 吸了很卑微我告訴大家我相信全民也能接受今天公教人員不是沒有為你剛剛所謂的年經的永續你拿著這個大的一個目標"},{"start":789.4,"end":816.605,"text":"在犧牲自己 不是沒有耶這麼多年已經砍了多少了他們也沒有要求要回復到原點去啊只是真的砍過頭了嘛你們過去考試院提的版本也不是今天這個版本 沒錯吧不是後來現在實行這個版本 沒錯啊你們也沒砍那麼重啦真的到最後是砍過頭 我告訴你那今天也不過卑微的說拜託 留一口氣給公教人員吧謝謝您好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1002,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時35分）主席，有請考選部長、銓敘部長跟保訓會主委。"],["劉部長孟奇：委員早。"],["主席：請部長、主委。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：我想先請我們銓敘部長，立法院已經三讀通過警察人員人事條例修正案，你知道嘛！對不對？"],["施部長能傑：我知道。"],["羅委員智強：讓警察、消防、海巡、移民、空總人員可以提高退休的所得替代率，讓他們退休生活更有保障，我知道銓敘部當時是反對這個立法，但現在修法已經通過，部長還是維持反對的立場嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對，我還是維持反對，但是我們會根據法律……我剛剛已經報告過，該我們做的事情，我們都在執行中。"],["羅委員智強：好，非常好，你在執行中。我要特別再強調，警察、消防、海巡、移民跟空總人員所執行的勤務都是銓敘部認定高度危勞職務，沒錯嘛！對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，根據我們的危勞職務認定標準。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，這也是我們修法的一個原因。像是警察採輪班制，作息日夜顛倒，還時常要長勤務來停休，因此他們的所得替代率，我們有特殊的保障，這部分是當初的一個立法目的。","內政部警政署統計數據顯示，警消平均死亡年齡是75歲，和我們國人平均壽命是81歲相比，壽命差距達6年之多，我想請教一下，為什麼會差那麼多？"],["施部長能傑：一個人退休以後的平均餘命有很多因素都會影響，不過我跟委員報告，那個數字可能大家可以再double check一下，我印象中我們部裡面掌握的數字應該沒有差到那麼多。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你再把數字給我看，好不好？你不要口頭說數字不一樣，數字拿給我看。"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["羅委員智強：我們也是看到了政府相關的數字，我們才拿出來的。銓敘部一再稱危勞職務可以提早退休，在職待遇較高，可是你沒去想過他們平均壽命為什麼那麼短？其實跟他們的勤務、職務有關，不用講別的，你拿警消來講的話，警消殉職的可能性就比一般公務員高得多，沒錯吧？"],["施部長能傑：我沒有實際的數字，但是理論上應該是會。"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！你如果要推翻理論，你就拿出實際數字來嘛！在這邊我要跟部長講，為什麼在這件事情上我的立場比較強硬？"],["施部長能傑：我知道。"],["羅委員智強：就是因為我們的社會治安就靠警察保護，我們都是受警察保護的人，打火兄弟每次出生入死，大家也看到了，只要他們在火場當中殉職，我們所有政府官員排排站，全部去公祭。因此，對於這些警消退休生活的保障，這是我們應該要給他退休生活保障的特別禮遇，但是很遺憾，今天我們看到政府的處理態度並不相同。如同我們剛剛講的，如果政府都不願意善待他們……最近我們的政府很喜歡講要強化社會韌性跟民防韌性，強化社會韌性及民防韌性就應該對待警消人員友善一點，從他們立場多照顧一點，那不就是一種社會韌性跟民防韌性的強化嗎？","我接下來就要問，為什麼我們今天通過警察人員人事條例，要去提高他退休後的所得替代率，提高他退休的保障？可是今天非常遺憾，行政院就跟你講它不編預算。剛剛你也講了，銓敘部已經做好準備，因為立法院通過法律了嘛！你個人反對，我尊重你的反對，但立法院就是民意機關，今天已經通過這個法律。我想請教一下部長，請問如果行政院不編預算，你接下來的工作怎麼進行？你能進行嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，根據憲法跟預算法規定，所有的中央政府總預算案的編製權是在行政院，所以這個事情是行政院……"],["羅委員智強：當然啦，我知道，所以沒為難你嘛！我剛剛質詢有為難你嗎？沒有吧？"],["施部長能傑：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有預算，你也做不了事嘛！不是嗎？沒錯吧？"],["施部長能傑：我們就是按照我們該做的事情去把它完成。"],["羅委員智強：這個事應該也沒有為難你啦，這件事情你就回答做不了事，這樣就對了啦！你告訴我，沒有預算怎麼做事？你掏腰包嗎？部長，你會掏腰包嗎？叫你掏腰包也不公平嘛！對不對？所以你就做不了事嘛！","今天我要特別講，為什麼在野黨要提出復議？第一個原因，坦白講，我覺得行政院這樣欺負警消，我們是看不下去啦！銓敘部都說他們是危險勤務人員，他們在國家前線保障治安、保障人民的生命財產安全，立法院都通過法律了，我們是民意機關。我還是要再次強調，我不為難你，不叫你回答，行政院現在提釋憲的說法，坦白講是在欺騙社會大眾，因為我相信你當公務員、當部長，當公務員這麼久了，我在政府單位也服務過，非常清楚知道釋憲的程序，釋憲程序很簡單，行政院是有權釋憲沒錯，但是在大法官會議作出所謂的緊急處分前……緊急處分就有凍結法律的效果，沒錯吧？他作緊急處分，可以凍結這個法律，而在作緊急處分之前、沒有凍結這個法律之前，這法律是有效還是無效？這法律就是有效的啊！今天在法律有效的情況下，你跟我講說等大法官會議解釋出來，你才要編預算，這本身就是違憲啦！侵犯立法權的核心。我當然知道現在行政院也不在乎立法權，可是重點是你也是在欺負我們警察、消防這些危險勤務人員。","同樣的道理，這可能不是銓敘部主管的，立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例，除了提高志願役加給，對於訓練勤務繁重的戰鬥部隊弟兄，也提高他們的加給，這個你總知道吧？這個法律通過，你知道吧？雖然不是你們主管，其實這個情況跟我剛剛前面講的警消的狀況是相同的，結果一樣，行政院還是不編預算啊！","說真的，我們在野黨到現在為止都非常善意，像上禮拜我們本來有提退回總預算，後來我們在野黨商量以後覺得說不要用退回的方式，等於讓行政院還可以有個再思考的機會，所以我們把退回案打住，然後我們現在改用的方式是提出復議，提出復議其實用意就是給行政院一個機會，不要把警、消跟軍人的權益當作是政治鬥爭的一個籌碼。比方說，以軍人來講，我們的國防預算明年要高達9,495億，占GDP 3.32%，比今年要增加1,768億，是史上最高，但是我們看到行政院還是不編軍人的預算。","我這樣講，兩岸之間兵凶戰危，大家都擔心戰爭發生的可能性，請問部長，戰爭發生以後是誰去保家衛國？部長，答案應該很清楚吧！"],["施部長能傑：我想除了軍人以外，還有全民都應該要……"],["羅委員智強：對啊，但最重要在前線衝鋒陷陣、守住疆土，甚至犧牲生命，最重要的最前線是誰？當然是國軍嘛！這種情況之下……而且我們現在國軍的編現比都不夠，軍校招生到的人越來越少，原因是什麼？你不能一直要他們去付出生命的代價，但又告訴他我不想改善你的待遇。今天我們國民黨、在野黨就是因為看到兩岸之間可能有戰爭的風險，所以我們希望能夠給軍人合理的待遇，讓他們覺得……當然保家衛國是他們光榮的責任，他們會這麼認為，因為我們的軍人是有愛國心的，可是你也不能因為他有愛國心，就跟他說「沒關係，待遇就不要計較了」，這是為什麼今天我們要提出軍人待遇條例修正的一個最重要原因，所以我在這邊也表達今天為什麼我們要提出復議案，再次請行政院可以好好想想我們軍、警、消的情況。","接下來我要講的是，我們國民黨黨團已經將停砍公教年金的公務人員退休資遣撫卹法以及公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例列為本會期要優先通過的法案，我想請教部長，你還是反對停砍公教年金嗎？是不是？"],["施部長能傑：我還是要從整個基金財務的角度提供說明，我覺得當我們把財務狀況做更清楚的說明後，大家好好來討論。"],["羅委員智強：好啦，部長，你剛剛前面都已經講過，我知道啦，你的論點我一向都知道啦。我想請教一件事情，你剛剛講基金破產啊等等的問題嘛，對不對？是不是？沒錯吧？"],["施部長能傑：它會歸零。"],["羅委員智強：歸零嘛。來、來、來，我想請教，你知道我們勞保有類似的問題吧？"],["施部長能傑：一樣。"],["羅委員智強：那勞動部的回答是什麼？這幾年撥補了三千多億了耶，沒錯吧？"],["施部長能傑：對，每年都有撥補。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，每年都撥補，它還是有破產問題，對不對？你講的，跟你們一樣嘛，那你知道勞動部怎麼講嗎？勞動部說政府有最後支付責任，勞保絕對不會倒，大家請放心。很有魄力啊！那我就問嘛，公教是二等公民嗎？是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我沒有……"],["羅委員智強：我支持喔，我先講，不要被扣帽子，我支持勞保由政府負擔最後支付責任，勞保絕對不能倒，我支持，但是我要幫我們公教人員講一句話，為什麼到公教人員這邊，政府的肩膀就不見了？","說真的，我都沒有為難你，因為所謂雙標的問題，我覺得你也不好回答。第三個，我要跟你講，請問我們今天提的案子是要回到2018年以前的年金水準嗎？是嗎？是不是？"],["施部長能傑：沒有，是112年停止調降，有112年跟113年。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，停砍嘛，對不對？所以不是要回到所謂之前的年金狀況嘛！我跟部長講一件事情啦，我們也遇到太多太多的公教人員，我相信你不否認啦，臺灣不管是十大建設、經濟奇蹟，還包括今天台積電的建設，都是很多優秀公務員在後面擘劃，這些公教人員在我們國家發展過程當中是我們最中堅的安定力量，但今天卻卑微到什麼程度？我直接用個比喻跟你講啦，年金砍了這麼多年，你把他的血跟肉都砍掉了，今天非常卑微的是說，並不是要把血肉補回來，只是求求你骨跟筋不要再斷了嘛，手跟腳不要再斷了嘛，肉跟血都被你砍了、吸了，很卑微，我告訴大家，我相信全民也能接受，今天公教人員不是沒有為你剛剛所謂的年金永續在犧牲自己，你拿著這麼大的一個目標，他們不是沒有耶，這麼多年已經砍了多少了，他們也沒有要求要回復到原點啊，只是真的砍過頭了嘛！過去考試院提的版本也不是今天這個版本，沒錯吧？不是後來現在實行的這個版本，沒錯吧？你們沒砍那麼重啦，真的到最後是砍過頭，我告訴你，今天也不過是卑微的說「拜託，留一口氣給公教人員吧」，謝謝你。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62fe5b49e275015d46819c05f3ca7f3b91dcf33aa1b58936822cfcc21c557743ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:05:38 - 11:27:11","影片長度":"00:21:33","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T11:05:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:27:11+08:00","duration":1293,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.46784375,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.238468750000003,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.20721875,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.73846875,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.79721875,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.76284375,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.000968750000006,"end":58.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.81846875,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.31034375,"end":75.83346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.12034375,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.47034375,"end":80.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.90471875,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.99721875,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.69721875,"end":89.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.75096875,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.88971875,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.78659375000001,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.88784375,"end":107.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.08096875000001,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.67471875000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.38721875,"end":125.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.88471875,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.88409375,"end":137.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.57909375,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.92409375,"end":145.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.51034375,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.46784375000001,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.07909375,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.18284375000002,"end":177.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.12971875000002,"end":182.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.36534375000002,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.78159375,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.81784375,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.26409375,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.01909375000002,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.99784375000002,"end":218.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.17409375000003,"end":219.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.19096875000002,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.28346875000003,"end":222.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.18596875,"end":230.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.93596875,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.52659375000002,"end":236.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.36534375000002,"end":240.92159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.90096875,"end":239.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.90471875000003,"end":243.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.92909375000002,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.08471875,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.48971875,"end":254.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.94534375,"end":251.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.96596875000003,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.83846875,"end":262.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.73221875,"end":269.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.69346875,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.72721875,"end":269.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.39346875,"end":273.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.57471875000005,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.51971875000004,"end":276.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.75971875,"end":281.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.67909375,"end":281.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.18909375000004,"end":286.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.83846875,"end":290.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.85471875,"end":290.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.87159375000005,"end":291.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.88846875,"end":296.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.74784375,"end":303.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.20284375,"end":305.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.68784375,"end":309.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.69971875000005,"end":313.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.01971875000004,"end":319.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.91346875,"end":321.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.96784375000004,"end":323.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.60909375,"end":333.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.34596875,"end":334.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.32034375,"end":337.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.59409375,"end":354.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.95096875,"end":350.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.41846875000005,"end":360.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.20659375,"end":372.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.07096875,"end":365.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.15471875000003,"end":369.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.22221875,"end":369.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.32721875000004,"end":372.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.98534375,"end":374.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.06096875000003,"end":382.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.29596875000004,"end":387.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":387.68346875000003,"end":387.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.70034375,"end":389.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.15159375,"end":392.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.71221875000003,"end":393.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.81346875,"end":394.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.88909375000003,"end":396.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.00284375,"end":396.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.96471875000003,"end":401.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.78659375,"end":403.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.71034375000005,"end":405.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.35909375,"end":425.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.72909375,"end":420.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.47534375000004,"end":423.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.06159375000004,"end":431.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.91284375000004,"end":440.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.60346875000005,"end":452.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.65221875000003,"end":481.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.91346875000005,"end":485.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.98034375000003,"end":487.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.96284375000005,"end":494.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.62471875000006,"end":498.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.71659375,"end":501.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.53909375,"end":544.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.62284375,"end":506.24721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.3172187499999,"end":587.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.0190937500001,"end":590.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.79096875,"end":591.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.5165937500001,"end":594.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.60096875,"end":592.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.3515937500001,"end":600.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.8484687499999,"end":610.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.6865937499999,"end":622.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.27721875,"end":611.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":622.4653437500001,"end":626.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.27534375,"end":624.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.62534375,"end":647.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":626.8359687500001,"end":627.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.7022187499999,"end":653.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.4309687500001,"end":668.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":668.53409375,"end":674.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.0234687500001,"end":670.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":675.28409375,"end":677.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":678.8784687500001,"end":689.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":689.62784375,"end":697.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":697.50846875,"end":701.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":701.6765937499999,"end":707.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":707.9709687500001,"end":715.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.64471875,"end":723.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":724.89659375,"end":727.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.88346875,"end":730.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.27971875,"end":733.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":733.9922187500001,"end":736.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.5234687500001,"end":738.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.5147187500002,"end":790.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":790.3884687500001,"end":798.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":799.1297187500002,"end":801.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":801.8972187500001,"end":803.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":803.65221875,"end":810.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":811.11096875,"end":820.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":821.1853437500001,"end":827.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":827.5134687500001,"end":833.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":833.2509687500001,"end":845.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":845.8059687500001,"end":848.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.24846875,"end":849.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":850.3115937500002,"end":858.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":858.4622187500001,"end":859.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":859.8290937500001,"end":861.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":861.48284375,"end":869.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":869.9709687500001,"end":872.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":872.8059687500001,"end":874.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":875.3203437500001,"end":882.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":882.4922187500001,"end":883.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":884.2978437500001,"end":904.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":904.7334687500002,"end":910.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":910.80846875,"end":915.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":915.7865937500001,"end":917.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":917.5247187500001,"end":926.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":926.13096875,"end":936.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":936.3740937500002,"end":936.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":936.44159375,"end":947.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":940.5928437500002,"end":940.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":940.9640937500001,"end":940.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":947.35971875,"end":1000.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1001.1572187500001,"end":1005.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1005.6965937500001,"end":1011.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1011.9909687500001,"end":1013.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1013.7290937500002,"end":1025.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1025.5415937500002,"end":1030.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1031.26221875,"end":1036.5103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1036.59471875,"end":1044.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1046.0953437500002,"end":1070.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1049.1328437500001,"end":1049.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1053.14909375,"end":1053.4190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1053.46971875,"end":1053.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1059.20721875,"end":1059.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1070.02409375,"end":1080.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1081.3640937500002,"end":1089.3965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1089.9703437500002,"end":1100.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1100.58471875,"end":1101.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1102.93034375,"end":1114.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1106.72721875,"end":1107.6722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1109.2247187500002,"end":1109.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1111.78971875,"end":1111.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1114.9622187500001,"end":1115.9747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1115.9747187500002,"end":1119.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1119.99096875,"end":1123.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1123.60221875,"end":1123.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1123.88909375,"end":1124.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1124.34471875,"end":1131.0103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1125.05346875,"end":1126.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1129.4915937500002,"end":1129.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1129.5928437500002,"end":1129.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1130.52096875,"end":1135.1109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1135.3640937500002,"end":1139.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1140.47721875,"end":1141.5909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1142.45159375,"end":1146.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1147.4634687500002,"end":1149.4547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1150.46721875,"end":1154.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1154.8884687500001,"end":1164.2034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1164.55784375,"end":1169.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1170.3628437500001,"end":1186.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1186.19159375,"end":1189.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1189.5497187500002,"end":1193.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1193.07659375,"end":1201.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1199.5228437500002,"end":1199.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1201.24409375,"end":1203.1847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1202.8809687500002,"end":1216.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1210.42409375,"end":1210.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1215.60471875,"end":1216.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1216.85346875,"end":1216.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1216.9209687500002,"end":1217.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1217.8828437500001,"end":1225.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1227.1809687500001,"end":1235.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1236.2259687500002,"end":1242.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1239.63471875,"end":1243.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1244.1909687500001,"end":1246.6209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1246.6209687500002,"end":1248.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1249.1353437500002,"end":1250.0128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1251.2784687500002,"end":1251.6665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1251.8522187500002,"end":1254.3328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1254.3328437500002,"end":1270.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1270.7859687500002,"end":1278.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1275.4434687500002,"end":1278.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1278.32909375,"end":1278.3628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1278.3797187500002,"end":1291.3228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1292.3184687500002,"end":1294.9678437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.669,"end":15.621,"text":"請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長請洪部長"},{"start":23.388,"end":38.842,"text":"時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概14人數是8500多人"},{"start":42.164,"end":64.391,"text":"那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字平均每個人5000多"},{"start":65.598,"end":92.855,"text":"平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做一次我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存"},{"start":94.119,"end":118.599,"text":"但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛"},{"start":119.72,"end":146.271,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭"},{"start":147.948,"end":149.977,"text":"也得不到一個具體的答案"},{"start":151.141,"end":177.354,"text":"那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天"},{"start":178.294,"end":200.922,"text":"接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給老公的大概多少錢"},{"start":203.347,"end":221.793,"text":"呃我們目前其實呃在特別預算裡面是150億是那全部給勞工嗎呃當然全部都給勞工有一些呃當然有有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工對你給勞工的數額大概多少"},{"start":223.466,"end":243.114,"text":"給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億"},{"start":250.514,"end":275.552,"text":"對 然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來 業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的 扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年 36個月嗎"},{"start":278.099,"end":303.049,"text":"2016年底 對 就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多 兩年半所以總共是18個月20是30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事"},{"start":304.586,"end":320.772,"text":"給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界"},{"start":323.018,"end":337.171,"text":"有發出這樣子的聲音認為說勞動部就跟他們對接跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求時間太晚了這個媒體有報導我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到也有看到"},{"start":338.632,"end":354.14,"text":"我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少"},{"start":355.472,"end":373.815,"text":"跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要是兩雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就是禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況是那多少數字"},{"start":375.243,"end":403.577,"text":"你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報 但是 對那這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在 對對 那我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計"},{"start":404.978,"end":431.059,"text":"難以估計我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積錢工資但是我們積錢工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息對 但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定"},{"start":431.96,"end":451.693,"text":"因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了第二個事情我關心的事情是說沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲"},{"start":452.745,"end":480.905,"text":"他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼"},{"start":481.98,"end":498.602,"text":"我想勞動團體這樣呼籲我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對 我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久"},{"start":499.761,"end":515.082,"text":"我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞"},{"start":516.072,"end":543.633,"text":"我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標 他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看"},{"start":544.634,"end":568.007,"text":"美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就是所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分"},{"start":568.627,"end":587.365,"text":"那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道"},{"start":589.179,"end":609.511,"text":"這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是 他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者 社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定"},{"start":610.765,"end":633.645,"text":"跟文說明 確實在美國他在做這個強迫攔戶戰扣令的這個角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對 我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在九月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場"},{"start":635.146,"end":653.279,"text":"那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查那我們其實也還有再請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定吧"},{"start":653.459,"end":677.58,"text":"我想他們當然是他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情那我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控"},{"start":678.939,"end":706.792,"text":"捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接官的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說"},{"start":708.129,"end":727.08,"text":"捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外宿使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎"},{"start":727.932,"end":742.697,"text":"我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK 那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特所以這個是一個自由的調查跟跟我說我們並不是用一個調查的角度是"},{"start":743.837,"end":758.466,"text":"我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視"},{"start":759.426,"end":780.577,"text":"的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助"},{"start":781.517,"end":800.867,"text":"那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事"},{"start":801.96,"end":826.013,"text":"我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為"},{"start":827.694,"end":849.527,"text":"因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款"},{"start":850.359,"end":863.163,"text":"那我也沒有任何所謂的Debt Bondage的問題那我根本沒有Debt Bondage的問題那你美國就說我有Debt Bondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說"},{"start":870.029,"end":883.112,"text":"你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有理清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了"},{"start":884.809,"end":909.795,"text":"雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準 各種指引因為Forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引 列什麼標準不管是10項 11項 12項 13項標準那些標準一定會比Forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體"},{"start":910.851,"end":914.988,"text":"那我們要面對問題 具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管"},{"start":915.868,"end":942.688,"text":"你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟"},{"start":943.709,"end":970.514,"text":"仲介 或者是這些相關的資訊其實還帶他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果"},{"start":971.374,"end":999.711,"text":"但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的記錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來 你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對"},{"start":1001.232,"end":1011.335,"text":"美方所指控的一頭阿菇的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的"},{"start":1012.062,"end":1030.216,"text":"但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄啊這中間顯然是有落差那這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反但沒有發現"},{"start":1031.357,"end":1041.243,"text":"那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去了解了解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎"},{"start":1047.149,"end":1060.809,"text":"第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們"},{"start":1061.89,"end":1088.732,"text":"還是必須來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是 部長不好意思喔我講的比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體啦就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則"},{"start":1090.034,"end":1118.694,"text":"但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定喔我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的記錄所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃委員說明"},{"start":1120.055,"end":1148.82,"text":"其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用 ILO 的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊"},{"start":1150.566,"end":1168.525,"text":"其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態"},{"start":1170.404,"end":1189.531,"text":"那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的"},{"start":1190.091,"end":1214.879,"text":"剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起嗎對 但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯 對"},{"start":1217.06,"end":1242.86,"text":"所以所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛那主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個是我理解所以大概還要多久"},{"start":1244.209,"end":1270.166,"text":"就可能要看一下 我們會盡快吧對啊 所謂盡快是多久 再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的可以嘛 那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易 也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後"},{"start":1271.182,"end":1294.493,"text":"一個月後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以喔 好 謝謝請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外有關於你們目前為止的這些"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時5分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。時間的關係，我直接就進入主題。第一個，依目前無薪假的人數節節攀升，很多委員也非常的關切，依目前最新看到的data，實施的人數大概是八千五百多人，勞動部有沒有計算過，以現在這八千五百多人當作基數來計算的話，政府提供給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼，每個月大概要支出多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：具體的數字是平均每個人五千多。"],["黃委員國昌：平均每個人五千多元，所以平均一個月的話大概要四千多萬、將近5,000萬，是嗎？每個月。"],["洪部長申翰：我們計算一下數字再提供。"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼問這個問題？無薪假的人數節節攀升，當然反映出來目前產業界所面臨的一些困境，企業主當然會想辦法生存，但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益，這是為什麼在高關稅的特別條例裡面，其實台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的補助，我們是最支持的。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：這也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來提出的數額。當然，最後立法院三讀通過的版本我們還是要尊重，因為我們是少數，我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了，也沒辦法，要尊重多數。","就目前的狀況看起來，我很擔心，我希望不要發生，但是我必須要非常坦白地說，我非常非常地擔心所謂的暫時性高關稅，雖然行政院的立場說是暫時的，但會暫時多久？目前我看不到盡頭，也得不到一個具體的答案，因此我非常擔心接下來會延續以及大概還會延續多久。","為什麼特別問你每個月大概要支出多少錢？因為我必須要比較務實的計算，我們給勞動部相關的補助、編列的相關預算，對於支持勞工這件事情，錢到底是夠還是不夠，這件事情滿重要的，所以這個數字可能部長今天接受我質詢的時候會覺得我問得有一點太細、太具體，但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數，你心裡如果沒有數的話，到時候編預算等於全部都是用估的，到底怎麼編？以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈，要支援給勞工的大概多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們目前在特別預算裡面是150億。"],["黃委員國昌：是，全部給勞工嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：全部都給勞工？"],["洪部長申翰：有部分是會用於我們在相關措施的宣導，其他部分當然都是給勞工。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解，你給勞工的數額大概多少？"],["洪部長申翰：給勞工的數額？"],["黃委員國昌：就是你說150億裡面有其他的，要什麼宣導、要行政作業費，這個我都了解，150億裡面140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：除了這些行政跟宣導部分……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我就是要問數字。"],["洪部長申翰：當然都是給勞工的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：業務費是11億，然後……"],["黃委員國昌：150億先扣掉11億的業務費？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員國昌：再來呢？"],["洪部長申翰：業務費是11億，基本上我們這個都是要給勞工的錢，這不是用在……"],["黃委員國昌：所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：扣掉勞保撥補的話，大概一百三十幾億。"],["黃委員國昌：這個期間用多久？"],["洪部長申翰：就是3年。"],["黃委員國昌：3年，36月嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：到116年底，就是這個特別條例的實施期間。"],["黃委員國昌：所以總共幾個月？"],["洪部長申翰：兩年多，兩年半左右。"],["黃委員國昌：所以總共是30個月？"],["洪部長申翰：對，兩年多。"],["黃委員國昌：30個月一百三十億多，所以一年大概多少錢？不是，我沒有要問這麼基本的數學，但我只是要提醒你一件事，給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在無薪假的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係，這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂。","第二個部分，產業界有發出這樣子的聲音，認為勞動部跟他們對接、跟他們座談、了解雇主跟勞工需求的時間太晚了，這個媒體有報導了，我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到、也有看到。我現在比較關心的事情是，你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候也承認，現在所謂的減班休息也好，或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好，有出現違法的黑數，你們有沒有估計過違法的黑數大概有多少？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，有幾種狀況，第一個狀況是，如果勞工並沒有同意，因為減班休息是需要雙方同意的，如果勞工沒有同意就逕自減班休息，當然就直接是違法的狀況，至於多少數字……"],["黃委員國昌：你們有估計或有任何的idea所謂的黑數大概有多少人嗎？因為你有幾種狀況，一個是你剛剛所講的勞工沒同意，第二個是雇主跟勞工自己私下講完了以後，他們也沒通報。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎？因為我關心的是這些人的權益。"],["洪部長申翰：會有存在。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道有存在，我現在的問題是，你知道或有估過大概多少人嗎？還是沒有辦法估計？難以估計？"],["黃司長琦雅：跟委員報告，我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴雇主積欠工資……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解。"],["黃司長琦雅：但是我們積欠工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但我的問題還是一樣，勞動部願意公開承認這個有黑數，我覺得值得肯定，因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題，你如果連問題的存在本身是否認的話，那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了。","第二個事情，我關心的是說，沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少？這個數字為什麼重要？因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲，他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到，他可能迫於雇主的壓力、可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係、可能擔心直接就被抄了等各式各樣的原因，因此存在這樣的黑數。為什麼這件事情重要？除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外，就下一個政策的議題，你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法，對於這樣子的呼籲，勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我想勞工團體這樣呼籲，我們當然願意來做各種評估。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得要評估多久？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得給我們一點時間，我們來評估一下相關的法規面。"],["黃委員國昌：我絕對願意給勞動部一點時間，但我需要勞動部告訴我「一點時間」大概是多久？"],["洪部長申翰：可能一個月的時間。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月的時間？可以喔！好，那就一個月的時間。","剛剛也有委員開始關心到關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件，老實講我看到這樣子的新聞非常的震驚，因為捷安特自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象，其實不僅僅是在臺灣，在全世界都看得到，甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車比賽當中，我們都看得到捷安特的商標、logo，甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱，因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候，老實說，我非常非常的驚訝。","當然，驚訝歸驚訝，進一步就要去看美國他們的CBP對於我們捷安特提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎？它的證據到底是什麼？到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題，還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了一些落差？因此，我就一頁一頁下去看，第一個，就所謂濫用弱勢處境的這個部分，捷安特自己有做回應，包括了透明僱用的流程、自由生活的選擇、保障人身的自由以及申訴管道。針對捷安特所做出來的這些回應，勞動部有沒有去了解捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到？還是捷安特在胡說八道？"],["洪部長申翰：這部分應該是捷安特的聲明啦！"],["黃委員國昌：是，它聲明我有做到這些事嘛！我們從勞動主管機關的立場，當然要去了解捷安特說的是真的還是假的嘛，你是繼續欺騙消費者、社會大眾，還是你講的是真的？因為它如果講的是真的，那我們就要進一步去問當初美國是怎麼認定嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實美國在做強迫勞動暫扣令的角度，他們其實是用ILO的標準……"],["黃委員國昌：對，我沒有在質疑標準，現在我在問的是事實層面的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們在9月底的時候，有跟臺中市一起進廠，但是我們那次並不是做勞動檢查。我們其實也還有再請捷安特，是不是可以再補一些資料給我們，比較能夠去做相關的……因為我們是站在協助的角度。"],["黃委員國昌：所以到目前為止，捷安特單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們尊重他們聲明的這部分，它是從企業的角度去談這件事情，我們有進廠去做一些了解，但是其實也還有一些資料要再請捷安特來提供。我們的角度……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我關心的還是同樣的一件事情，美國政府對捷安特有指控，捷安特可能認為有誤會、可能認為指控不實，所以他們發聲明，但每一個人都可以發聲明，要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由，但我們從政府的角度上面來看，特別是從主管機關的角度上面來看，我們要求的是客觀的真實是什麼？我其實不太想講抽象的東西，因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實、解決問題一點幫助也沒有，譬如說，捷安特在他們的聲明裡面講述，他們的移工可以自由登記外宿、使用手機，沒有任何隔離或限制，這是它的聲明。我從保障移工權益的角度來看，我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的？這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，提供資料的程序大概要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：這個當然要看捷安特。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個是一個自由的調查？"],["洪部長申翰：我們並不是用一個調查的角度，基本上，我們進廠是希望能夠……其實在強迫勞動這個議題上，從今年上半年我們就比過去更加審慎的在看待，也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視。的確現在在國際上面，包括供應鏈、包括品牌、包括我們重要的貿易夥伴國家，其實對於強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的，認定的標準也一直在強化，所以我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避空間，因此我們進廠是希望能夠給捷安特一些協助，這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體改善的方案，能夠儘早來化解美方的指控，包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，因為剛剛部長的回復其實把很多東西全部混在一起，我一樣一樣講，第一個，標準是什麼，這是一回事，我們如果有標準，那個標準是不是符合國際規範？甚至我們沒有標準，這是一個層次的問題；第二個，在我們既有的標準下面，他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準，這是第二層次的問題，這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準涵攝的問題。其實我現在比較關心的事情，是事實層面跟標準涵攝的問題，因為時間的關係，我走得比較快一點，我帶你一樣一樣看。","捷安特被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應這兩邊有很多巨大的落差，基本上捷安特的聲明就講其實沒有你們所講那樣子的狀態。譬如說就扣款的部分，我就沒有任何扣款，我也沒有任何所謂的debt bondage的問題，我根本沒有debt bondage的問題，但美國卻說我有debt bondage的問題，我當然不服氣啊！我會發聲明說我根本沒有這個狀況，你為什麼說我有這個狀況。現在核心的問題就變成了是你要他改善，是要有這個狀況、不符合標準，所以我請你改善，但我現在發現我們連最fundamental的問題似乎都還沒有釐清，他到底有沒有違反那個標準的本身可能就是個問題了。雖然針對所謂強迫勞動，你說有各種標準、各種指引，因為forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象、不確定的法律概念，你有很多指引去看，但是我更關心的事情是不管你列什麼指引、什麼標準，不管是10項、11項、12項、13項標準，那些標準一定會比forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體。","我們要面對問題及具體的討論問題就是今天我不管你列了幾項標準，我關心的事情是針對每一項標準，你是不是在客觀上面有違反，或者是你客觀上面是有符合，把這些事情都釐清了以後，我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎，也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話，要怎麼改善……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我直接可以跟你講，我們其實有請他們還要再多提供一些資料。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["洪部長申翰：尤其比方跟仲介，或者是這些相關的資訊，其實還要待他們再把這些資料補過來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完，因為我看完了這些東西，他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規，現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範，就服法裡面就有很明確的規範啊！甚至在勞基法裡面也有明確的規範，你違反了那些規範，自然而然有那個法律效果，但是我後來去看他們整個裁罰的紀錄，他們除了勞動……來，你看一下，除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項，沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外，這個大概一年被罰一次，大概每一年去檢查一次嘛！檢查就沒符合，大概一年被罰一次，裁罰的金額新臺幣3萬到30萬元，大概就是這個range。但是就服法裡面只針對美方所指控一大堆的東西裡面其中的一項，還有很多項喔！對照到我們現行有效的法律，它是有法律效果的，但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄，我完全沒有看到他們有任何違反的紀錄，或者是被裁罰的紀錄，這中間顯然是有落差。","這個落差有兩個可能的理由：第一個理由，因為地方主管機關沒有認真的去做勞檢，所以有違反，但沒有發現；第二種狀況，人家有去勞檢，勞檢了以後去認定，或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態。這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能？現在勞動部掌握了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個是我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們現在主要有兩件事情必須做，第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分，這是第一個層次；第二件事情是的確我們還是必須要回頭檢視我們的法規，在這些法規調整裡面的需要，我們自己的法規我覺得必須要檢視。"],["黃委員國昌：不是。部長，不好意思，我講得比較直接一點，你現在都還是在講抽象的問題，剛剛我問題很具體啦！就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分，有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事，你如果做了這些事情的話，接下來會有罰則。但我現在客觀上面看到的，除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外，每一年大概被罰一次，其他他們所指控違法的事項，我講的不是現行法沒規定，我們現行法就有規定也有罰則，但我看不到任何裁罰的紀錄。現在的問題是……"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題是有去檢查，然後發現沒有違反，還是根本沒有去檢查？"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明，其實美方的指控並不是用臺灣的法規去指控……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我有了解。"],["洪部長申翰：他們是用ILO的標準跟要求來做裁處。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我一直跟你講，我現在就不是在講標準的問題，我現在講事實的問題，所謂事實的問題是如果加班的工時過長、違法加班，或者不管是工時過長，還是該給加班費沒有給，這些在我們的勞基法裡面都有罰則，其他的事項在我們的就服法裡面也有罰則啊！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在不是說你已經確定一個事實涵攝兩套不同的法規，出現不同結果的問題喔！是你有同一個事實，雖然兩套法規的標準不一樣，但是都會出現違法的狀態，如果有這樣子的狀況的話，我期待的是，在臺灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的紀錄，但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西，所以我才請教部長，是有去勞檢做檢查沒有問題，還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查？"],["洪部長申翰：確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，剛剛你也說過，你們有跟臺中市政府做勾稽嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：對。但是我的意思是，因為這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年、2024年的狀況……"],["黃委員國昌：只有2年的期間，也沒有很長。"],["洪部長申翰：對。因為很多相關的檢查在臺中市是由地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查，所以檢查出來的紀錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：是。所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況，只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：臺中市政府現在是這樣說的。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這樣好了！剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛！要把一些事實釐清，主席也站起來了，你們還需要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：因為我們現在持續請巨大把一些資料再補過來。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我理解，所以大概還要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：這可能要看一下，我們會儘快吧！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所謂儘快是多久？再一個月夠嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們應該一個月。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！是不是也請主席等一下裁示一下，就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況，因為這件事情攸關臺灣的勞權保障、攸關我們對美的貿易，也攸關臺灣的國際形象，是不是可以請勞動部一個月後提出一份報告給關心的委員們，這樣可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝。"],["主席：有關於剛剛黃國昌委員所要求的資料，請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告。另外，還有關於你們目前為止的這些相關法規，就是剛剛林淑芬委員要求的，也一併提供給本委員會委員們的辦公室，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時34分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb629df2223aa2652f9d819c05f3ca7f3b91dcf33aa1b58936822cfcc21c557743ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:37:29 - 11:05:29","影片長度":"00:28:00","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:37:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:05:29+08:00","duration":1680,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.870968750000003,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.37721875,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.406593750000003,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.025968750000004,"end":35.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.36284375,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.985968750000005,"end":49.626593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.048468750000005,"end":73.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.26409375,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.52534375,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.40659375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.80721875,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.22846875,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.40096875,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.45971875000001,"end":95.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.47596875,"end":97.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.86784375,"end":99.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.23471875000001,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.36971875,"end":102.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.80784375,"end":107.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.96346875,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.20721875000001,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.06346875000001,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.46846875000001,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.48534375000001,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.90284375,"end":118.15596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.54409375,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.19659375,"end":171.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.56534375,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.20971875,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.12159375000002,"end":266.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.92596875000004,"end":295.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.95096875,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.16409375,"end":314.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.54721875,"end":331.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.48971875,"end":333.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.30784375,"end":336.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.63659375000003,"end":358.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.26596875,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.32909375,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.37534375,"end":362.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.80534375,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.31971875000005,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.00221875,"end":374.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.63471875000005,"end":376.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.51221875000005,"end":406.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.29221875,"end":410.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.05096875000004,"end":416.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.12221875,"end":415.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.79284375000003,"end":424.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.79159375,"end":445.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.27346875,"end":449.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.03659375,"end":454.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.66034375000004,"end":456.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.37284375,"end":458.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.19971875000005,"end":464.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.73034375000003,"end":467.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.60346875000005,"end":468.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.17284375,"end":475.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.76659375,"end":507.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.76596875,"end":517.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.51971875,"end":517.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.3972187500001,"end":572.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.6797187500001,"end":574.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.7890937500001,"end":578.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.7378437500001,"end":587.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.1540937500001,"end":619.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.5078437500001,"end":622.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.54534375,"end":624.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.1653437500001,"end":630.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.3078437500001,"end":645.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.4109687499999,"end":647.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.16596875,"end":651.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.33846875,"end":663.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.48409375,"end":669.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.76596875,"end":690.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.72471875,"end":692.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.86784375,"end":703.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.08971875,"end":706.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.02596875,"end":738.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.93221875,"end":740.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.68721875,"end":745.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":745.43346875,"end":746.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.73721875,"end":749.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.5090937500001,"end":748.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.9053437500002,"end":751.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.74471875,"end":752.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.7065937500001,"end":756.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":756.45284375,"end":757.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.49471875,"end":776.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":778.94721875,"end":784.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.81971875,"end":792.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.57784375,"end":799.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.2478437500001,"end":819.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.0828437500002,"end":802.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.51034375,"end":822.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.07534375,"end":825.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":826.5178437500001,"end":827.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.6609687500002,"end":832.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.8797187500002,"end":862.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.69784375,"end":870.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.3928437500001,"end":874.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":871.20284375,"end":872.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.7465937500001,"end":886.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":887.1159687500001,"end":891.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":891.38534375,"end":895.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":892.81971875,"end":897.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":898.43909375,"end":931.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":932.9484687500001,"end":938.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.82096875,"end":944.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":945.9084687500001,"end":951.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":949.90784375,"end":984.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":985.24409375,"end":986.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":986.50971875,"end":995.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":996.19596875,"end":1001.2078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1001.64659375,"end":1003.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1003.8403437500001,"end":1016.8172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1016.86784375,"end":1016.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1016.9015937500001,"end":1018.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1017.0703437500001,"end":1017.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1018.3359687500001,"end":1021.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1021.7447187500002,"end":1022.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1022.75721875,"end":1022.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1022.8078437500001,"end":1022.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1022.9597187500001,"end":1023.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1023.02721875,"end":1023.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1023.06096875,"end":1023.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1023.5503437500001,"end":1024.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1023.5672187500002,"end":1024.7147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1024.36034375,"end":1025.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1025.64284375,"end":1027.6678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1027.3809687500002,"end":1029.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1028.2247187500002,"end":1039.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1040.6953437500001,"end":1042.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1042.3997187500001,"end":1046.0784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1045.58909375,"end":1074.2259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1074.66471875,"end":1077.6009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1077.49971875,"end":1079.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1079.60909375,"end":1080.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1079.91284375,"end":1091.6578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1092.40034375,"end":1099.9434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1100.7872187500002,"end":1102.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1102.23846875,"end":1112.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1110.42284375,"end":1110.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1111.0472187500002,"end":1112.1947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1112.38034375,"end":1119.3497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1120.96971875,"end":1122.9947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1123.3997187500001,"end":1123.4334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1123.4334687500002,"end":1123.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1123.5347187500001,"end":1123.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1123.9734687500002,"end":1128.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1124.05784375,"end":1124.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1129.6434687500002,"end":1133.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1130.7403437500002,"end":1132.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1133.5415937500002,"end":1136.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1135.9040937500001,"end":1140.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1141.60784375,"end":1142.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1142.06346875,"end":1149.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1150.2984687500002,"end":1152.8297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1152.9478437500002,"end":1154.2472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1154.5003437500002,"end":1162.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1162.31346875,"end":1164.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1163.1909687500001,"end":1202.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1202.9990937500002,"end":1230.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1231.23096875,"end":1238.8584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1238.9934687500001,"end":1256.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1257.62346875,"end":1265.4703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1266.09471875,"end":1266.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1267.1747187500002,"end":1268.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1269.58784375,"end":1275.4434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1270.9547187500002,"end":1271.3934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1276.0003437500002,"end":1279.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1278.9534687500002,"end":1280.9278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1279.2065937500001,"end":1279.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1281.5015937500002,"end":1289.5172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1289.5172187500002,"end":1290.7828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1290.4453437500001,"end":1315.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1315.6397187500002,"end":1344.6478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1344.7490937500002,"end":1350.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1351.4147187500002,"end":1353.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1353.40596875,"end":1370.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1355.2115937500002,"end":1355.6165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1356.4097187500001,"end":1356.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1370.6859687500003,"end":1371.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1370.87159375,"end":1372.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1372.84596875,"end":1377.8578437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1376.3053437500002,"end":1379.5453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1379.9672187500003,"end":1385.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1382.81909375,"end":1383.1734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1385.5528437500002,"end":1388.6747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1388.55659375,"end":1389.2484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1389.28221875,"end":1390.9022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1391.0540937500002,"end":1410.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1409.8359687500001,"end":1422.9984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1410.9665937500001,"end":1412.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1422.6609687500002,"end":1427.6390937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1424.44971875,"end":1426.3397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1427.08221875,"end":1432.6678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1432.75221875,"end":1433.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1434.0853437500002,"end":1435.5028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1435.5028437500002,"end":1439.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1438.1690937500002,"end":1438.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1438.92846875,"end":1459.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1457.76096875,"end":1462.9415937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1462.11471875,"end":1467.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1466.3165937500003,"end":1467.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1467.31221875,"end":1508.3353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1470.43409375,"end":1472.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1508.6222187500002,"end":1510.5628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1511.22096875,"end":1511.6765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1512.2672187500002,"end":1517.0428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1517.22846875,"end":1521.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1522.1053437500002,"end":1531.3865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1529.74971875,"end":1601.8565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1533.7659687500002,"end":1534.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1602.2278437500001,"end":1659.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1659.1978437500002,"end":1663.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1663.5347187500001,"end":1669.7615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1669.9978437500001,"end":1672.1409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1672.1747187500002,"end":1674.2503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1673.6934687500002,"end":1676.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1676.17409375,"end":1676.2415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1676.3934687500002,"end":1677.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1676.7815937500002,"end":1680.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1680.35909375,"end":1681.1353437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.359,"end":8.201,"text":"宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長"},{"start":25.738,"end":47.906,"text":"林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關際邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個"},{"start":50.534,"end":78.981,"text":"發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國"},{"start":80.781,"end":97.533,"text":"韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soul farm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業"},{"start":100.436,"end":116.901,"text":"還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前 對"},{"start":117.941,"end":140.558,"text":"那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了"},{"start":141.118,"end":163.943,"text":"可是在今年這個時候 這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來 這個滋事體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑"},{"start":165.323,"end":187.453,"text":"華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withhold release order要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留"},{"start":188.153,"end":203.667,"text":"那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢"},{"start":206.243,"end":227.317,"text":"我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視"},{"start":230.279,"end":245.965,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不曉得你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法"},{"start":248.866,"end":269.382,"text":"包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉"},{"start":271.784,"end":293.784,"text":"這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易 對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面 被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個 你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個 你出口轉賣 退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣 不要到我美國來第三個 你放棄這些貨物銷毀"},{"start":296.007,"end":313.521,"text":"那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP他會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀 知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的"},{"start":314.622,"end":329.269,"text":"短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的"},{"start":334.389,"end":361.937,"text":"中旅遊被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽中旅遊"},{"start":363.954,"end":371.644,"text":"我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":376.824,"end":404.963,"text":"我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易"},{"start":407.565,"end":428.304,"text":"我們講馬來西亞不要再講他們的中旅遊還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove它包含退還外籍工人的仲介費它被發布了戰扣令以後它馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費"},{"start":429.185,"end":456.143,"text":"支付了賠償金 改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊 超過一年以上CBP才解除它可是你知道它損失多少錢嗎"},{"start":459.244,"end":470.329,"text":"他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢我記得是上億不是不止在損失36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金"},{"start":476.789,"end":490.012,"text":"美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈戰扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟勞資是息息相關的"},{"start":498.914,"end":516.111,"text":"你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年"},{"start":516.651,"end":530.916,"text":"去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我諮詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上"},{"start":532.717,"end":562.137,"text":"我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括"},{"start":563.297,"end":587.495,"text":"這個招聘的費用 相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的"},{"start":589.195,"end":608.063,"text":"在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候"},{"start":616.147,"end":644.502,"text":"不要忘了還有兩篇報導都是這個Peter Peter Benson當時啊2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務"},{"start":646.479,"end":674.887,"text":"我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了"},{"start":675.467,"end":702.908,"text":"因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是Peter Benson他在2025年今年3月"},{"start":704.161,"end":706.107,"text":"的確對台灣又做了"},{"start":707.116,"end":734.491,"text":"我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車衛星而今年他很具體巨大就在他的調查裡面他針對好幾家包括電子產業包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工"},{"start":735.131,"end":755.585,"text":"他們訪談了 吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎應該是 他應該在場外是訪談 我有看到那篇報導對啊 很多 詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了 但是報導 整篇報導我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們吉安特訪談了20名以上 20名以上"},{"start":758.907,"end":783.608,"text":"現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長"},{"start":784.861,"end":808.809,"text":"那個委員其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎"},{"start":809.93,"end":818.882,"text":"這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場"},{"start":826.547,"end":844.125,"text":"他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長針對這個事情我一直講知識體大可是你怎麼回應 你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案 講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險"},{"start":850.151,"end":872.62,"text":"勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計劃期望可協助企業辨識評估風險 進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說得好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊 不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明"},{"start":874.801,"end":894.846,"text":"第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個"},{"start":899.74,"end":919.853,"text":"來 國際規範呢 就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第一項"},{"start":922.395,"end":944.442,"text":"在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎這個"},{"start":946.949,"end":971.859,"text":"我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了 這些都講很多年第一個 虐待弱勢第二個 欺騙第三個 扣留工資第四個 債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十 第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班"},{"start":973.621,"end":982.955,"text":"債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的"},{"start":985.387,"end":1001.659,"text":"我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那"},{"start":1003.86,"end":1025.34,"text":"不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年"},{"start":1025.86,"end":1029.382,"text":"延後一年那也是一樣所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷的用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對"},{"start":1043.012,"end":1061.162,"text":"這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上"},{"start":1062.563,"end":1091.302,"text":"我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有助長但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個Peter Benson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你"},{"start":1092.532,"end":1119.065,"text":"我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有"},{"start":1121.161,"end":1140.386,"text":"你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢"},{"start":1142.157,"end":1152.354,"text":"如果你這個大企業 指標企業你都不敢勞檢 都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢"},{"start":1154.517,"end":1180.052,"text":"跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場來給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善"},{"start":1183.214,"end":1201.565,"text":"大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布"},{"start":1203.586,"end":1230.517,"text":"我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以"},{"start":1231.337,"end":1256.58,"text":"他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本"},{"start":1258.92,"end":1280.459,"text":"還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟文說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延攬中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個"},{"start":1281.573,"end":1284.897,"text":"你的國對國訓可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的"},{"start":1296.65,"end":1314.785,"text":"就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都"},{"start":1317.727,"end":1343.313,"text":"現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標設定有幾個國對國的職聘"},{"start":1344.813,"end":1369.611,"text":"委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明"},{"start":1373.233,"end":1390.418,"text":"我們其實現在 這也是為什麼我們現在提出了一個我們要一個延攬中心你知道韓國全部都是國對國執拼嗎 韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在 不是牛布化是蝸牛化 沒有 不 應該是停留在原地一千個 一千個"},{"start":1392.9,"end":1411.516,"text":"可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多大"},{"start":1412.216,"end":1419.802,"text":"我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少 1000這樣子有用嗎"},{"start":1434.273,"end":1455.936,"text":"當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來"},{"start":1457.077,"end":1471.966,"text":"這是在這件事在執行上面的重點但是國家退位三十年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標嘛那我現在講的就是說你知道"},{"start":1472.967,"end":1490.296,"text":"丹麥這個記者Peter Benson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎 不只他只指台灣的汽車零組件 電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險"},{"start":1491.036,"end":1510.354,"text":"而制度面我剛剛講了制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國職聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多 那法制面你要怎麼做"},{"start":1512.401,"end":1535.992,"text":"其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績"},{"start":1536.832,"end":1543.796,"text":"沒有成績 至於我們三年關 兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在講這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括健鵬 還包括新光芳 新鮮還包括永德 美麗達 振興橡膠還包括健林 精塑 聖品 愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司"},{"start":1563.187,"end":1582.089,"text":"這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本 環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈"},{"start":1583.03,"end":1586.311,"text":"這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松"},{"start":1606.44,"end":1622.627,"text":"他不是 我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸選"},{"start":1633.311,"end":1658.698,"text":"否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標"},{"start":1660.179,"end":1679.857,"text":"謝謝我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林淑芬委員具體你的目標好你的數字和你們要做的事情好這個部分請紅部長這個這個要馬上做了啦我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時37分）好，謝謝主席，是不是請洪申翰部長？"],["主席：請洪申翰部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天對於減班休息的問題，前面很多委員問過了，我就暫時先不問，因為時間有限，我今天覺得比較令人擔心的是來自於美國海關暨邊境保護局（CBP）在9月24號對臺灣的巨大自行車製造發布暫扣令（WRO），臺灣首次有製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件。我要問你，你知道今年被美國政府CBP採取WRO的手段強扣商品在海關到底有多少案子，你知道嗎？除了臺灣以外還有誰？"],["洪部長申翰：今年好像上半年還有韓國。"],["林委員淑芬：韓國的什麼產品？"],["洪部長申翰：它應該是一個……英文是Salt Farm。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，是一個鹽田，是農業。還有誰？"],["洪部長申翰：上半年好像還有一個，中國好像也有。"],["林委員淑芬：中國也有，但絕對都不是製造業，還有沒有其他的？"],["洪部長申翰：可能要確認一下。"],["林委員淑芬：就製造業的產品而言，臺灣可能是美國邊境保護局採取的比較重大的一個案子，對美國來講，可能也是一個大案子。"],["洪部長申翰：之前還有比方說馬來西亞。"],["林委員淑芬：那個是多年以前。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：美國的關稅法是很早就有的法律，1930年就有的法律，他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動、童工或囚工的商品進口，這麼早又很老舊的法律早就都存在了，至於巨大有沒有涉及這一些強迫勞動的問題也被討論很久很久很久了，可是在今年這個時候、這個時間點，我們正在進行對等關稅的談判，我們正在進行232的談判，在這種狀況裡面被扣下來，這個茲事體大。而跟歐盟法律的差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑貨品涉及到強迫勞動，就可以在邊境攔截和禁止它進口，所以在這種狀況裡面，只要CBP掌握了合理懷疑的時候就會先發布WRO，就是Withhold Release Order，要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留。","我要請教你，在這麼高強度只要懷疑就可以扣的狀況裡面，你覺得臺灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國時可能有風險？為什麼我這麼說呢？我一開始就講，這是美國最高度貿易保護時代的來臨，在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護，所以他們對於進口到美國的產品，現在會採取更高的標準去檢視，在這種狀況裡面，我們也看到臺灣一路走來怎麼樣？部長，您知道的，包括臺灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面才訂出了勞基法，包括現在強迫勞動裡的勞動人權，他們基於貿易保護，勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了，所以在這種狀況裡面，他們要抵制、用貿易手段來強迫我們改善，這個都不是一個個別企業的問題了！臺灣整體對外貿易、對美貿易的大風險就在這裡，所以在這種狀況裡面，被扣的產品有幾個選擇，第一個，你提出不是強迫勞動的證明；第二個，你出口轉賣、退回原產地，或是您到其他市場去賣，不要到我美國來；第三個，你放棄這些貨物然後銷毀。如果後續你沒有採取手段，被調查出你的強迫勞動是真的，CBP會發布正式認定並依法對產品沒收或銷毀，茲事體大！所以這個暫扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的，短則幾個月，長則數年的調查，暫扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊，你知道嗎？你剛剛講的馬來西亞在2020年棕櫚油被查扣，到今年（2025年）的2月補交了勞工合規資料，歷經5年，而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷，仍停留在等待美方回復的階段。還有多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令。","我現在要講的是，你看人家是糖、鹽、棕櫚油，那我們是什麼東西？我們是製造業，人家都是農業一級加工產品，而我們是製造業，在這種狀況裡面，我是覺得我們臺灣這種狀況、這種處境真的是很不利。像這些先例，就是我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞，都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示，都是在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題，而在高度的貿易保護氛圍之下，各國都要面臨以更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易。我們再講馬來西亞，我不要講他們的棕櫚油了，他們還有一個最大的手套製造商叫Top Glove，他在被發布暫扣令以後就馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費，支付了賠償金，改善了工作場所、住宿，改善勞動條件，還委託獨立稽核機構進行審核。部長，你知道Top Glove從被發布暫扣令到最後撤銷禁令花了多長的時間嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：Top Glove應該也是花了超過一年以上。"],["林委員淑芬：對，超過一年以上CBP才解除禁令，可是你知道他損失多少錢嗎？對他發的暫扣令超過一年的時間，這個公司總計損失多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：我記得是上億。"],["林委員淑芬：不只，總計損失了36億的馬幣，在當時是8.57億的美金，金額這麼高，其實大家都知道，就是企業被發布暫扣令，受影響的不是只有業主的利益，也不是這個公司而已，嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅，其實勞資是息息相關的，你因為強迫勞動、違反勞動人權而被暫扣，可是在你被暫扣以後，又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險，所以會雪上加霜，這個茲事體大。我要講的是，在你還沒有上任以前，在去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款的時候，我有質詢過這個問題，就是因為在臺美21世紀貿易倡議裡面，人家美方的代表對勞動議題講得很具體、很清楚，我當時質詢時是說你們不要把勞動議題變成臺美21世紀貿易倡議談判時的貿易障礙，因為美方的貿易代表署所公告的擬議文本講得很具體，要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護吹哨者的規定，而且要提出強化移工保護，包括招聘的費用、相關成本的規定，當時也包含了遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利，講得很具體，可是當時你們的部長認為：貿易談判不是我們主責的。人家美方在貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題，然後當時的部長說：這個不是我主責的。在臺美21世紀貿易倡議去年的談判裡面還講到要建立合作機制來解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題，然後美國講了這麼多，而臺灣官方回應臺美21世紀貿易倡議的談判卻是人家實問而我們虛答。","不要忘了在那個時候還有兩篇Peter Bengtsen的報導，當時是2024年臺灣翻譯的，實際上是講2023年太空、債務奴役與臺灣，指出為跨國衛星、電子、汽車等公司供貨的臺灣企業，在背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務，我們被點名了！而且不要以為只是巨大這樣的傳統產業，還包含跨國衛星Starlink的協力廠商，還包含電子產業，還包含汽車產業，在過去這好像是臺灣自己的勞工人權，可是在2023年、2024年到2025年4月以後來看，它不一樣了，因為它有可能成為對等貿易……應該是這樣說好了，它有可能成為在貿易保護高漲氛圍之下的任何手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情。而恰好是同一個記者，也就是Peter Bengtsen，他在今年（2025年）3月的確又對臺灣做了報導，我們剛剛講了這些太空、債務奴役和臺灣為電子、汽車、衛星產業供貨，而今年他很具體的指出，巨大就在他的調查裡面，他針對好幾家，包括電子產業，包括汽車供應產業、零件供應產業，包括巨大等等，他做了很多的調查，而且還訪談了他們的外籍移工，你知道他們訪談了幾個捷安特的移工嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：他應該有在廠外進行訪談，我有看到那篇報導。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！很多個啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有記住詳細的數字，但是整篇報導我都看完了。"],["林委員淑芬：他們也訪談了美利達，他們訪談了捷安特20名以上的移工，現在他們把訪談的紀錄還有三個案例的調查報告交給美國的Transparentem這個調查機構，你知道有哪三家企業嗎？業務單位知不知道？這麼大的事情，你們業務單位到底知不知道？部長……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，其實這件事我們很清楚，所以從今年上半年我們跟發展署就針對強迫勞動的風險很審慎，包括找相關的品牌……"],["林委員淑芬：他這個報導都已經有指名個別廠商，包括當時的巨大都被點名了，而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎？除了捷安特以外，他把三家企業交給美國調查機構，這裡面包括漢台科技股份有限公司（Hantic Precision Technology, Inc.），還包括HITACHI，而且這裡面還有我們官方的臺灣桃園國際機場，他也訪談了十多名，臺灣桃園國際機場公司也在列，漏氣死了！我現在要說的就是，部長，針對這個事情，我一直講茲事體大，可是你怎麼回應？你的回應是說「不能將此案視為單純個案」，你講得沒錯，你還說「業者都應該將此視為重大經營風險，勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引，並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計畫，期望可協助企業辨識、評估風險，進而避免風險」，部長，難道只有這些問題嗎？你說的好像全部都是企業自己要管理的問題，不是啊！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啊！不只是啊！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，可以給我一點時間說明，第一個，在現在這個階段，當然我們要有輔導機制，但同時我們也會檢視相關法規，評估法規調整的需要，以逐步趨近國際規範的要求，我想這都是我們必須正面面對的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道我們的法律跟國際規範、ILO規範來比，我們少了哪幾塊嗎？ILO有11項強迫勞動的風險指標，而我們現有的法律，從勞動基準法第五條、就業服務法第五十七條第七款及第八款、人口販運防制法第三十二條第一項，我們所對應的ILO風險指標，它是11項，我們法律只規定了幾項，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：的確現在在法規上，針對跟ILO之間的……"],["林委員淑芬：我們的落差是有6項沒有制定，6項啦！哪6項你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們現在有在做這個法規，當然有在做這些相關的檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：這講很多遍、很多年了，這些都講很多年了，第一個，虐待弱勢；第二個，欺騙；第三個，扣留工資；第四個，債務束縛，這在臺灣，包括我個人都已經講了一、二十年；第五個，惡劣的工作和生活條件；再來就是過度加班。債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚，而且講了最久的，但勞動部一直不願意面對，人家在問的時候，你們都虛答。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們現在當然必須面對這件事情，其實我到部裡面以後，我們從上半年就非常非常審慎的嚴肅看待這件事情，也陸陸續續跟一些產業，尤其是高風險產業在做討論跟溝通……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！這個是全面性的，你不能說因為現在美國貿易保護主義氛圍高漲，他們要發起抵制，所以要重視的勞動人權只在美國，不是！不只！連歐洲……"],["洪部長申翰：歐盟也有CS3D。"],["林委員淑芬：歐盟在幾年以後就要開始施行，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：二八年。"],["林委員淑芬：二七年，不是二八年……"],["洪部長申翰：他們後來延後一年。"],["林委員淑芬：喔！延後一年，那也是一樣……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們勢必要面對這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：現在大家都不斷用勞動人權當成對外貿易的檢視指標，而我們也已經刻不容緩，不得不去面對，雇主也不能……"],["洪部長申翰：這個態勢是非常清楚。"],["林委員淑芬：這是很清楚的。"],["洪部長申翰：態勢是非常清楚的。"],["林委員淑芬：所以勞動部跟臺灣的企業極需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵，儘管這幾年我們整體產業好像持續發展得很穩定，排名好像是名列前茅，但在勞動人權的議題上，我們很明顯仍然落後於國際水準，在這種狀況下，就以捷安特為例，人家說他強迫勞動，你們怎麼幫他解套？你們有進去勞檢嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們有駐廠，但不是勞檢。"],["林委員淑芬：你們不是勞檢，為什麼不是勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢？為什麼一個Peter Bengtsen可以訪談得到這麼多他們工廠裡的移工，而我們官方卻沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們沒有把這當作是個案，我們其實是把它視為通案，我們也會跟經濟部合作來協助企業做通案的審視。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！美國懷疑他是強迫勞動，你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有？還是你不敢做，因為他的確有，可能是的確有？"],["洪部長申翰：我們必須協助企業提出改善方案。"],["林委員淑芬：所以有？如果有的話，為什麼你們沒有正式勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們要協助企業提出改善方案。"],["林委員淑芬：在這種狀況下，都被人家實施暫扣令了，為什麼不勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不是用勞……"],["林委員淑芬：如果對大企業、指標企業不敢勞檢，也不願意勞檢，然後只是說叫他們改善，那不就是有問題才需要改善嗎？為什麼不勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們是希望協助企業提出改善方案，而且是提出具體改善方案的建議來進場，給予他建議跟要求。"],["林委員淑芬：我覺得我問你，你都沒有聽懂，為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到，而我們卻在正式勞檢時勞檢不到？現在被美國實施暫扣令了，你們連勞檢都沒有進去，就只是說要輔導企業改善，如果他沒有違反、違規，沒有強迫勞動，何須改善？大家都看到美國要實施暫扣令了，歐盟2027年也要實施「禁止強迫勞動產品上市規章」，要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動，在大家願意改善的時候，我們政府才願意去看制度面的問題嗎？我們的國家人權委員會發布了「臺灣企業與人權國家行動計畫」，這裡面談到企業跟工會對於企業人權政策的意識有待加強，在資本主義社會，我們可以理解企業追求的是利潤的極大化，可是在這中間，他把環境成本外部化，勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去，當然他會降低成本。以美國來講，你降低成本是來自於你的勞動人權、環境成本不符合規定，所以在世界上，你的產品當然有競爭力。未來他也會這樣對其他的國家，在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下，臺灣企業不願意負擔這個成本，還有政府……你知道，在這種狀況下，我們就更需要國對國直聘，不是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在有幾個國對國直聘？"],["洪部長申翰：我們在明年的計畫裡面，其實有提出一個延攬中心……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，我問你，你的目標是多少個？國對國直聘可以大幅降低所謂強迫勞動裡的債務問題……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，就是……"],["林委員淑芬：而你被美國、被歐洲、被世界各地記者或是官方指責的最大核心問題就是這些外籍移工為了要來臺灣，簽下大量的本票或是號稱的債務，其實可能就是仲介費，在這種狀況下，只有國對國的直聘可以解決，人家韓國全部都做得到，臺灣全部都只有「沒辦法」3個字，現在已經是刻不容緩，不能再這樣下去，所以我就要請問你，我不要求你馬上、立即全部解決，但法制面上，就像我剛剛講的，國際ILO指標11項，我們只有5項規定，有6項都沒有任何規定，在這種狀況下，國對國直聘可以解決很多問題，80萬的外籍移工，你的目標設定有幾個國對國的直聘？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我做一點說明，第一個，其實現在4個來源國我們都有直聘，但是做得不夠到位。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我就問你，你要設定目標。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你是洪申翰、不是許銘春，許銘春的目標是1,000個，80萬個裡面有1,000個，但我現在要問的是洪申翰部長，你告訴我，你的目標是希望80萬個外籍移工裡面可以到1萬個、2萬個？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這就是為什麼我們現在提出我們要有一個延攬中心。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道韓國全部都是國對國直聘嗎？你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎？你知道臺灣還不是牛步化，是蝸牛化嗎？沒有「步」，應該是停留在原地。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：1,000個、1,000個。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，可以讓我說完嗎？第一個，我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國、日本了解他們直聘制度上面的作法，所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的作法，這個延攬中心的作法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能。"],["林委員淑芬：你的目標人數是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：也包括……"],["林委員淑芬：我不想要看到你說你要做什麼，我要看到你的目標人數是多少，最終要檢驗的是你有幾個、有多少數量是國對國直聘進來的，我要看到這個。"],["洪部長申翰：人數我們會再來評估，但是我們……"],["林委員淑芬：人數是重點啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我說：「我們有過程，我們會改善」，最終人數是多少？1,000，這樣子有用嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然不會是這個數字。"],["林委員淑芬：對，但你不設定數字就是空談啊！"],["洪部長申翰：現在開始會有海外的，我們其實也跟行政院爭取人力，在提高政府聘僱過程的功能跟量能上面，我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚地拉出來，這是在直聘上面的重點。"],["林委員淑芬：但這是國家退位30年後責無旁貸，本來就應該要扛起來的。"],["洪部長申翰：沒錯！所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做，而且必須大步走出去。"],["林委員淑芬：對，你必須設定你要把多少人數當目標。"],["洪部長申翰：人數的部分我們會再來評估。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道丹麥Peter Bengtsen這個記者現在不只講臺灣的自行車產業而已嗎？他還直指臺灣的汽車零組件、電子產業，所以我才問你，不是只有捷安特有風險，還有電子產業、臺灣的汽車零組件，這些都有風險。而制度面我剛剛講了，制度面的部分，ILO的11項風險指標，臺灣法制化的只有5項，還有6項完全沒有制定；還有政策面，政策面就是你國對國直聘的人數要設定目標；法制面要修法的還有很多，那法制面你要怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分，現在同時在評估，其實這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始，從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備工作，我自己也都親自主持，跟產業、跟被暫扣的……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦，陸陸續續在做，那是一個過程，那是必須做的過程，但我們要看到成績，沒有成績，至於我們「三年官，兩年滿」，更何況你這個政務官不知道會做多久。","我現在要說，這個記者的調查報告不只是捷安特，還包括敬鵬、新纖、湧德、美利達、正新橡膠、劍麟、晶碩、勝品、艾訊等很多上市櫃公司，甚至我剛剛講的桃園國際機場公司，這已經不是單一企業踩到紅線的問題，而是反應出臺灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的結構性困境，我們用最低的勞動力成本、環境成本去換取國際競爭力，可是在全球供應鏈這種不對等的狀況裡面，我們這一種方法恐怕……因為OEM、ODM的國家就是成本競爭，可是現在這種狀況已經時不我與了，我們想要繼續這樣子也時不我與，從產業和經濟面來看，我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型，而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松，我知道它不是100公尺跑完就馬上立竿見影，但是你必須要現在就開始著手做，而且要設定目標。在這裡你要修法，要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動，我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義，要參考ILO的11項指標、要辨識強迫勞動，這樣企業才有所規循，否則現在國際記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO 11項指標，可是我們的企業說：「我們的法律只有5項、我們的法律又沒有規定到這裡，我怎麼遵循？」你說你要去輔導企業，但企業不知道要怎麼遵循，因為對他們來講，沒有法制化的規範，到底要做到什麼程度？然後ILO也是1個指標……"],["主席：淑芬委員謝謝，我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要，是不是請部長可以會後提供給林淑芬委員具體的目標、數字和你們要做的事情？這個部分請洪部長……"],["林委員淑芬：這個要馬上做了啦！"],["洪部長申翰：我們沒有迴避的空間，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","我們重新宣告：黃國昌委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb6241d428cd8e5a1fe5119d4e8153da54efdcf33aa1b589368261f4198ff1cb05dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:18:50 - 11:29:52","影片長度":"00:11:02","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T11:18:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:29:52+08:00","duration":662,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":3.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.69284375,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.050968750000001,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.582218750000003,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.99096875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":16.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.73284375,"end":25.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.422843750000002,"end":34.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.51409375,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.969718750000006,"end":52.900343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.204093750000006,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.19159375000001,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.03846875,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.21096875,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.30784375,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.68284375,"end":127.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.86784375,"end":126.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.43721875000001,"end":149.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.47096875000001,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.92659375000001,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.04471875000002,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.30721875,"end":158.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.40284375000002,"end":174.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.48471875,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.76721875,"end":176.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.57284375,"end":178.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.95659375000002,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.58409375000002,"end":190.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.10659375,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.61659375000002,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.18159375000002,"end":199.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.06721875000002,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.03284375,"end":205.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.43346875,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.95221875000001,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.29721875,"end":213.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.34346875,"end":219.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.58721875,"end":222.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.20284375000003,"end":226.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.86471875,"end":242.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.89159375000003,"end":249.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.13534375,"end":253.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.63659375,"end":257.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.81346875,"end":262.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.85909375,"end":264.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.35659375,"end":269.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.41909375,"end":271.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.34284375000004,"end":272.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.65909375,"end":274.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.80659375,"end":278.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.87346875000003,"end":280.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.86471875,"end":284.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.29034375000003,"end":285.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.72471875,"end":286.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.51784375,"end":287.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.69909375000003,"end":289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.72409375,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.71534375000005,"end":293.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.93846875,"end":296.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.80721875,"end":298.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.98846875000004,"end":305.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.05909375000005,"end":310.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.24409375000005,"end":310.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.72909375,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.12971875,"end":316.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.45409375,"end":317.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.97284375000004,"end":323.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.13221875,"end":339.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.33659375,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.69909375000003,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.48659375,"end":351.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.06034375,"end":352.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.03284375000004,"end":372.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.86721875,"end":375.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.98909375000005,"end":381.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.13159375000004,"end":384.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.64596875,"end":386.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.33346875,"end":396.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.41346875000005,"end":388.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.01534375,"end":418.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.62846875,"end":415.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.10471875,"end":423.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.30659375000005,"end":424.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.84221875000003,"end":425.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.89284375000005,"end":440.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.03159375,"end":430.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.60346875000005,"end":441.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.10534375000003,"end":447.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.94846875,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.96534375000005,"end":447.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.47159375,"end":447.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.77534375000005,"end":449.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.80034375,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.96909375,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.03659375,"end":450.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.12096875000003,"end":450.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.15471875000003,"end":450.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.20534375000005,"end":452.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.95596875,"end":454.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.14971875000003,"end":457.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.20034375,"end":455.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.51659375,"end":456.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.20846875,"end":461.20784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.37659375000004,"end":473.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.11909375000005,"end":462.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.71284375000005,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.75034375,"end":475.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.26034375,"end":477.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.46284375000005,"end":479.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.58909375,"end":481.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.64346875,"end":482.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.28471875,"end":489.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.99659375000005,"end":491.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.88659375000003,"end":495.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.75096875,"end":532.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.2934687500001,"end":541.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.80284375,"end":546.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.61221875,"end":547.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.28721875,"end":550.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.9153437500001,"end":555.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.77534375,"end":557.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.0703437500001,"end":562.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.9640937500001,"end":585.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.86346875,"end":588.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.1203437500001,"end":603.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.56096875,"end":626.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.3972187500001,"end":630.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.41346875,"end":637.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.8684687500001,"end":635.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.3703437500001,"end":636.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.8215937500001,"end":640.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.55534375,"end":647.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.0265937500001,"end":652.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.9753437500001,"end":661.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.1384687500001,"end":663.31971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":7.413,"text":"我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答"},{"start":30.489,"end":33.814,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想先請全序部 謝謝"},{"start":40.543,"end":68.935,"text":"委員長好 部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳斯亞委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談喔非常的巧 沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛斯亞委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集與請相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到"},{"start":69.395,"end":89.552,"text":"不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況我是一個比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個"},{"start":90.333,"end":117.491,"text":"那我們如果又來分入職1到5年入職5到10年入職10到15年15到20年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同"},{"start":118.492,"end":120.477,"text":"這是我簡單的推論 以上我的推論是正確的嗎"},{"start":122.885,"end":148.76,"text":"謝謝委員 是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜 是不是我把事情講清楚好 我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說 我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論 針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看 他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明 謝謝"},{"start":149.52,"end":173.86,"text":"因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要的責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會 就絕對不會倒"},{"start":177.608,"end":199.188,"text":"那是不可能嘛所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓他在138年公務人員138年就歸零 基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛那接下來因為我們實施了新制"},{"start":200.134,"end":219.37,"text":"就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早"},{"start":220.629,"end":241.524,"text":"那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前嘛那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年"},{"start":243.936,"end":271.106,"text":"我想我只把這時間點做一個說明那這個我舉134年好了就新知識134年距離現在剛好20年那距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你現在換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人那因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年"},{"start":272.403,"end":296.237,"text":"就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間"},{"start":297.847,"end":323.451,"text":"那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任能讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金那我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的"},{"start":324.192,"end":338.914,"text":"好 部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情"},{"start":339.375,"end":362.003,"text":"歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢嘛 領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能要65歲要退休那剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就領不到錢"},{"start":363.223,"end":384.136,"text":"那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡"},{"start":384.696,"end":395.471,"text":"那後面這個大洞怎麼辦我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題"},{"start":397.062,"end":417.989,"text":"好所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎"},{"start":419.664,"end":435.176,"text":"我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對 我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一那我今年應該是所有我也可以透露我年齡我今年應該如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是"},{"start":435.876,"end":461.097,"text":"那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思是說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人"},{"start":461.457,"end":481.187,"text":"都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你十年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到 各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍"},{"start":481.707,"end":501.056,"text":"好 我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的"},{"start":501.776,"end":528.804,"text":"我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境"},{"start":529.225,"end":531.883,"text":"那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎"},{"start":534.715,"end":561.875,"text":"就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛才在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題"},{"start":563.038,"end":588.004,"text":"我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張"},{"start":589.384,"end":603.475,"text":"這個是翁委員之前在司法法事委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員"},{"start":605.122,"end":634.194,"text":"當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保護社會委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意"},{"start":635.735,"end":659.719,"text":"這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好 謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前但謝謝翁委員謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時19分）謝謝主席，我想先請銓敘部，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早。我想跟著剛剛吳思瑤委員所質詢關於年金的部分，我們就往下來談，非常的巧，沒有套好招，但問的問題、關心的議題是一樣的。我想剛剛思瑤委員已經有很多呼籲了，我們就直接來談實質的問題，我們想問一下，關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團所提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會，我相信你們在蒐集輿情、相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到，不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算，假設用他們相關的修法辦法或者是論述可能會發生什麼情況？我是一個比較務實的人，我想直接來問一個問題，我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說，他們可能會擔心如果用這個算法，以後會不會領不到，這是第一個；如果又分入職1到5年、入職5到10年、入職10到15年、15到20年，往下再往後推，這個是對已經入職的公務人員來說。接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員，又分剛剛退休、退休5到10年、退休10到15年、15到20年，每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題，但是他們的處境是大不相同，這是我簡單的推論，以上我的推論是正確的嗎？"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員，是不是讓我有一點點時間說明？因為這有點複雜，是不是我把事情講清楚？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我認為確實須要講清楚，我先說，因為就一般人的角度來看，絕對不能夠大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態，所以為什麼一直呼籲要實質討論、好好地討論，針對我剛剛說的，光是用年資來看就遇到很多的困境，我想就讓部長先說明，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：因為銓敘部主管退撫基金，我們最重要的責任就是讓退撫基金能夠永續經營，所以我們定期會有精算報告，最近一次的精算報告是在114年4月完成第9次精算報告，就把基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明，我先講第一個scenario，根據精算報告，如果政府現在可以給基金2.96兆，這個基金絕對不會倒，但是不可能嘛！所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施，大概可以讓它在138年……公務人員的基金在138年就歸零，歸零的意思是後面還有人是沒有錢的，我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛！接下來，因為實施了新制，即112年新的公務同仁進來的新制，那個缺口就要補給這個基金，如果沒有補給基金，公務人員的這個部分會在134年就歸零，我想是這樣一個機制；而教育人員的部分，歸零的年代會更早，當然如果再停止調降，一定會讓本來預估的134年再往前嘛！就看停止調降的時間點，現在有些提案，而提案最早停止調降的年度是112年，當然是不是要停止調降是大院會去處理的事情，如果真的在112年停止調降，歸零的時間點就會拉到130年，我想我只是把這個時間點做一個說明。我舉134年好了，就新制而言，134年距離現在剛好20年，距離20年的意思是什麼？意思就是換算成現在在政府部門，在20年後達到65歲的人，剛好那一年就歸零了。所以它的影響層面會影響到的不是只有現職人員，而是包括已經退休的人，即使你已經在支領，可是當歸零年代出現的時候，因為基金用罄，用罄以後也不會說就不領了，所以後面很長的時間，那一段時間的財源要從哪裡來？","所以我跟委員報告的意思是，部裡面對這個部分會一直認為，對我們來講基金的永續經營最重要，因為我們的責任是讓所有參加基金的人，不管是現職人員或是已退人員，都能夠領到退休金，我想這是最重要的，因為影響層面其實是滿大的。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我可以這樣問嗎？如果按照您剛剛的說法，本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零，但是如果按照現在在野黨黨團的說法，可能130年就歸零，用一般人的角度來想，歸零後會發生什麼事情？"],["施部長能傑：歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了。"],["陳委員培瑜：答案就是沒有錢嘛！領不到錢。然後你剛剛給我一個數學題，你說我們用20年來推算，假設他65歲那一年要退休，也就是他現在是45歲左右，45歲到50歲左右，他可能到65歲要退休，剛好就是我這個年紀，我在公務機關服務到我要退休的那一年，剛好就會領不到錢耶！這樣國家要怎麼對待我？國家要怎麼協助我？"],["施部長能傑：我想這就是為什麼我們在討論這些問題的時候，銓敘部一直呼籲大家也要正視後面的問題，而不是只有談年改，因為當初做年改就是把它延後到138年用罄，後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡。"],["陳委員培瑜：後面那個大洞怎麼辦？"],["施部長能傑：我想這就是要靠社會的共識怎麼樣去找到一個適合的財源來處理事情，我只是想說這是一個很嚴肅的課題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。剛剛部長您的回答，大概把我今天的問題都回答完了，所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇，其實也有很多基層的公務員告訴我們，他們是84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的現職公務人員，他們不適用個人專戶制，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，是。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果按照你的算法，他們也會領不到嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我的意思就是回過頭來，以我自己的例子來講好了……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我就是想問你的部分，謝謝部長。"],["施部長能傑：我也是當事人之一。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，就是我說的那個期間。"],["施部長能傑：我也可以透露我年齡，如果我擔任公務人員，今年就是屆齡退休的人。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["施部長能傑：以平均餘命來講，我印象中平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下，所以如果我今年退休，再加上20年，差不多就是134年啦！我的意思是用這樣去算的話，我可能還很幸運，可是……"],["陳委員培瑜：你可能還很幸運，可能、可能。"],["施部長能傑：對、對，但是其他人就未必，即使包括已經退休的人……"],["陳委員培瑜：都有可能領不到。"],["施部長能傑：對、對。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果往前多推一點，已經早你10年退休的人，可能很幸運還可以撐往，在你後面的人，像是秘書長，因為他更年輕，所以退休之後可能就領不到。"],["施部長能傑：後面用罄歸零的時候，就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：都領不到、都領不到，各位，你們都領不到！"],["施部長能傑：用罄歸零的時候，那是一個大的窟窿。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員，也不是只有主席，所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚，我覺得就是會領不到，你剛剛說得非常客氣，叫歸零，我的話就叫領不到，我覺得這真的是一個非常、非常嚴肅的課題，甚至可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的，我們如何實質地去計算，並且看待世代的風險，我覺得這才是接下來在司法及法制委員會，甚至是所有委員會、所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情，也謝謝部長剛剛這麼清楚地說明，我想我們問的所有這些事情，都是希望所有的公務人員在基金永續的前提底下，我們真的可以做到。","當然，如同剛剛部長所說的，可能還有新的困境，就是138年以後的困境，你們目前有任何研議的對策或者是想法嗎？"],["施部長能傑：這是當基金歸零以後會遇到的很大的議題，其實我剛剛前面在答復吳委員時也提到，這是整個國家所碰到的問題，勞保也同樣碰到這樣的問題……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，還有勞保。"],["施部長能傑：退撫基金也同樣碰到這個問題，所以我才說這是一個……勞保當然會更早，現在距離差不多20年左右的時間，這個社會大家現在應該要努力尋求共識，看怎麼解決問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想在場各位非常聰明、有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲，應該是大家一起來努力解決後續會遇到的問題，而不是去主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情，你們認為要cover過來，我認為這是反改革，我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革。","還有最後1分鐘，有一個題目是翁委員之前在司法及法制委員會大力呼籲的，也謝謝翁委員當時願意改成附帶決議，你們就做了調整，這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下，你們後續做了調整跟對於制度的放寬，可以怎麼更友善公務員？"],["施部長能傑：當初也謝謝翁委員，司法及制委員會在討論的時候，我們透過修改育嬰留停辦法的方式，我們本來是限制，譬如說，如果要養育孫子女，就一定要由父母或者是祖父母，只能一方可以申請，我們把後面但書拿掉，雙方家庭的祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話，我們都同意，這個已經通過，就是今天，現在考試院院會應該通過了。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是今天早上，但我還是要謝謝翁委員當時的善意，讓你們用附帶決議的方法，你們也已經公告施行，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：今天考試院院會應該會通過，然後送請行政院會銜。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。我想所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣，讓所有的政策跟制度可以更往前，謝謝翁委員、謝謝部長。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時29分）","繼續開會（11時35分）"],["主席：現在休息時間結束，我們繼續開會。","請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62fec6ac6bb800e3a4119d4e8153da54efdcf33aa1b589368281c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:04:43 - 11:18:18","影片長度":"00:13:35","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T11:04:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:18:18+08:00","duration":815,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.94596875,"end":5.312843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.83971875,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.336593750000002,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.95534375,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.575343750000002,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.03846875,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.39471875,"end":64.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.15159375,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.86409375000001,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.96096875,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.95659375000001,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.62096875,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.26909375000001,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.84971875000002,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.12284375000002,"end":145.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.06721875,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.16346875000002,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.77221875,"end":172.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.08846875,"end":183.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.30596875,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.54471875000002,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.18159375000002,"end":198.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.43409375000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.04534375,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.39409375000002,"end":248.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.56596875000002,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.62034375000002,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.20659375000002,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.01659375000003,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.85596875000002,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.51784375,"end":260.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.68221875,"end":273.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.03034375000004,"end":276.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.69659375000003,"end":301.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.73909375,"end":302.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.41409375,"end":303.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.23659375,"end":305.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.65409375,"end":309.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.68721875,"end":311.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.37034375,"end":313.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":315.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.34034375000005,"end":317.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.61846875000003,"end":327.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.23721875,"end":330.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.33784375000005,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.47096875,"end":347.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.39846875,"end":360.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.64971875000003,"end":376.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.28846875000005,"end":378.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.27971875000003,"end":380.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.43971875,"end":386.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.83971875000003,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.42596875000004,"end":410.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.88659375000003,"end":416.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.19784375,"end":418.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.64909375,"end":421.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.74971875,"end":424.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.53846875000005,"end":425.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.93909375000004,"end":428.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.10784375000003,"end":426.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.15846875000005,"end":426.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.09909375,"end":432.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.99346875000003,"end":430.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.93409375000005,"end":434.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.06034375,"end":433.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.87034375,"end":434.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.29221875,"end":434.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.59596875000005,"end":434.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.95034375,"end":436.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.41846875000005,"end":437.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.38034375,"end":439.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.89471875000004,"end":445.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.46784375000004,"end":444.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.85159375,"end":446.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.08346875,"end":450.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.53846875000005,"end":452.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.75784375,"end":454.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.01909375,"end":456.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.48284375000003,"end":459.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.38534375,"end":463.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.65471875000003,"end":483.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.25909375000003,"end":486.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.94221875000005,"end":523.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.53971875,"end":534.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.5759687500001,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.0890937500001,"end":547.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.7509687500001,"end":564.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.85221875,"end":550.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.06221875,"end":557.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.93034375,"end":563.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.14096875,"end":569.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4272187500001,"end":572.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.19034375,"end":577.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.42159375,"end":579.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.22721875,"end":589.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.5378437500001,"end":593.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.71034375,"end":600.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.03409375,"end":602.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.7722187500001,"end":603.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.2234687499999,"end":606.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.2778437500001,"end":611.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.9522187499999,"end":618.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.73596875,"end":621.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.87471875,"end":624.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.4015937500001,"end":630.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.6328437500001,"end":638.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.8003437500001,"end":646.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.6809687500001,"end":653.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.8190937500001,"end":675.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.00971875,"end":676.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.71846875,"end":677.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.7478437500001,"end":686.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.4172187500001,"end":692.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.28971875,"end":694.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.84221875,"end":700.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.57971875,"end":703.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.7690937500001,"end":705.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.96284375,"end":715.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.2903437500001,"end":720.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.55971875,"end":721.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.7240937500001,"end":723.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.06971875,"end":727.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.40221875,"end":745.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.61909375,"end":762.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.86534375,"end":813.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.50284375,"end":815.2959687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.65,"end":5.93,"text":"好 謝謝請劉秘書長委員長秘書長早大家辛苦了今天我的質詢是新會期的第一次那也剛好是這個時間點我要給出我的兩個肯定跟一個呼籲肯定我們的心理架要上路了就在明天也肯定我們的永續報告書終於出爐了好 下一頁"},{"start":33.138,"end":44.591,"text":"首先心理下這個在立法院我真的是率先倡議到現在教育先行公務機關來接力教育部呢高中職全上路大學現在從兩個學校我一開始倡議到現在127個學校都有"},{"start":48.755,"end":78.213,"text":"所以呢 学校有了关心学生的心理健康公务机关是第二个接力的我质询了人事处长也四次质询考试院相关的包括师部长也四次加起来终于看到一个好的结果下一页所以说我要提醒哦明天正式上路嘛对不对 秘书长是 明天那一个价别的反应不只是给需要的同仁一个满足他的需求"},{"start":78.908,"end":108.027,"text":"更重要的是藉由這個價別讓我們所有的公務體系的同仁能夠去關懷彼此關照到誰也許在面臨的身心重大的壓力這些執行我當然會跟人事總署分享但是我想你們也是掌管公務同仁所有的相關事項我給予肯定但是不要忘了他不是只多一個價他有他背後來建構賴清德總統健康台灣"},{"start":108.857,"end":124.669,"text":"尤其Mental Health的這個部分考試員有什麼新的想法嗎其實我想各機關因為都有員工協助的措施這個部分應該持續來強化因為心理健康這個我想大家越來越重視越來越了解這個事情的存在其實這個價別的存在"},{"start":125.43,"end":145.085,"text":"就可以让我们有一个多的工具去观察谁请了这个假他也许正面临着他心理健康的suffer需要我们出手来相助我肯定你们感谢你们明天就要上路这是所有公务机关的好消息下一个呢我手上拿的是考试院终于也有永续报告书"},{"start":146.484,"end":169.804,"text":"這個行政院永續會要求所有的二級機關地方政府都要有那我是非常關心永續政策所以我過去在教育文化委員會我發現中研院居然沒有後來中研院也加入了我轉到司法法治委員會我發現總統府也沒有總統府現在也加入那我謝謝考試院不再缺一角正式加入謝謝你們你有看這個報告書嗎"},{"start":172.165,"end":198.371,"text":"呃 有裡面你們在有18項工作要對應於聯合國教科文組織的17個發展指標很好 我也會定期來管考下一頁那除了考試員有永續報告之外我們的國家基金的主管機關也要有我也在質詢台上勞動基金 郵儲基金都有永續報告書你們的退伏基金有了嗎"},{"start":201.947,"end":226.832,"text":"應該是上上禮拜我才看到那個初稿已經交給我了好 我跟你報告 就在今天就在今天所以今天交委安排這個時間非常好來質詢你們我也就是肯定你們就在今天退府基金的永續報告書今天出爐我早上要去要你們的同仁說因為很厚一本很用心我想要提供給我們所有司法法治委員會關心的委員好嗎"},{"start":227.572,"end":252.093,"text":"那退伏基金的永續報告書內涵很重要的是什麼下一頁就是我們的投資的碳足跡的這個部分要列進去我當初揭露的四大基金的投資碳足跡居然退伏基金是最高的換言之有一個永續報告書就可以透過公開揭露去檢視你們投資在符合時代永續潮流的產業這個會watch嗎對不對好下一頁"},{"start":255.902,"end":274.981,"text":"那這也是國際的趨勢我就不贅述好下一頁所以說再次感謝今天出爐以後我也會follow也希望我們的退府基金真的是用在正確的投資之外產生必要的效益之外要讓它永續就你們的永續報告書裡頭"},{"start":276.883,"end":303.193,"text":"的第十七項工作對不起第十二項工作強化公務人員退府基金及儲金運用的收益要打造長期穩健及永續經營的年金退休的機制這就是對應於聯合國的指標第十項的減少不平等以及要打造一個和平正義的社會制度"},{"start":304.306,"end":330.191,"text":"所以在做基金永續照顧退休的穩健是世界的趨勢但是呢下一頁我很遺憾這個會期我們的年改已經有幾個法案即將可能快速的要被討論我希望充分討論而不是強行碾壓我們看看國民黨的朱立倫主席他說的"},{"start":331.56,"end":357.875,"text":"現在有通膨啊生活的需求越來越高啊所以呢再砍年金是不公平的要確保維持退休人員的基本生活所需朱立倫說的他說的成不成立我們現在政策有沒有做到我們等一下可以來討論傅昆齊總召他在開議日說的國民黨第一個優先法案就是公教反年改的法案我真的覺得我們多多朝野合作多多對話不要為快而快"},{"start":360.857,"end":380.516,"text":"我們看到在場是羅志強委員也是我們司法法治委員會他現在參選國民黨黨主席他把停侃年金的所得替代率成為他競選黨主席的政見我是覺得年金永續是民生議題不要有政黨的政治化"},{"start":381.617,"end":410.082,"text":"當然 我們翁曉琳 昭緯她也提到說 這個會期她擔任昭緯年金改革違反公平正義我要跟昭緯再次的喊話其實年金改革才是真正的落實公平正義我們無論如何期待新的會期司法法治委員會我們讓對話討論來取代過去的強行碾壓這個議題可以討論但真的不要為快而快也是我對翁委員的請求好 下一頁"},{"start":410.962,"end":421.275,"text":"我問一下兩位 兩個應該世代有一點點差異一個我叫老師 一個我叫朋友同學 老師你一個月基本生活手續要開多少"},{"start":423.422,"end":449.67,"text":"我真的不多啦有的探機私人隱私就不方便講真的不多啦真的不多會超過五萬塊嗎不會啦不會來這個祕書長你跟我年紀比較相仿你的世代你的基本生活所需是多少方便透露的話我好像沒有算你好像沒有算因為都老婆在替你管對不對"},{"start":451.951,"end":479.465,"text":"會超過五萬嗎你個人的基本生活所需就是量入為出啦量入為出我們要這回答好像老婆虧待你的感覺其實對於剛剛朱立倫主席說的現在的通膨啦生活的指數啦如果年金繼續的砍下去呢所得替代率呢不停的話呢會影響退休公務同仁的基本生活所需我認為就要去定義"},{"start":480.345,"end":504.197,"text":"基本生活所需是多少是合理的我這裡有一個衛福部公告的六都還有全台灣的2025年的最低生活費它是一個參照我們不是說每個人都要過得這麼辛苦我不是而是說以這個官方的數字統計的最低生活費的統計首都貴了一點要每個月要兩萬"},{"start":505.416,"end":534.313,"text":"其他的六都除了台南大概一萬五千元之外其他的六都 新北 桃園 台中 高雄大概都落在一萬六這是一個全國的數字的統整非六都的平均生活的這個基本的生活需支大概算出來是一萬五但是我們就要來看看剛剛朱立倫主席說的現在的退府如果不停砍的話哇 他們的退休金是沒有辦法支應他的基本生活所需的"},{"start":535.989,"end":564.463,"text":"現在的公教來請部長公務人員跟教育人員平均我這邊有試算他的月退的這個所得大概是多少我的數字正確嗎去年在跟公聽會的時候我們也有根據那時候的大概去年的一個數字去做一個平均值大概應該都有超過五萬塊平均值教育人員會高一點"},{"start":565.222,"end":589.418,"text":"我這裡整理的數字公務人員是最新的數字是5萬50656元一個月一個人教育人員的退休縫是57973其實都遠高於國家所試算的生活費的這一個range當然我說我們不是每個人都要過得很辛苦但是也不是每個人都要過得很"},{"start":590.635,"end":606.04,"text":"超出基本需求之外那兩位又可以分享一下嗎我們五萬在公務人員交易人員有五萬七的退休的平均那勞保呢勞工呢這是我現在走到哪面對最大的問題"},{"start":607.332,"end":624.355,"text":"我想趙薇可能也會面對選民這樣的一個詢問老保加勞退平均的月退休的所得我們比一比就知道大概不會超過兩萬五所以比起來的話公教"},{"start":625.524,"end":652.929,"text":"是高出我們的勞工朋友兩倍以上那麼回到我說的基本生活所需的這一個衡量的標準如果說一個五萬多以上的退休縫還難以維持基本生活我覺得這個命題是值得我們在就社會的各個層面去理解下一頁"},{"start":653.928,"end":675.002,"text":"尤其我們當初修法的時候就已經針對所謂的通膨啦所謂的這個社會的不斷的進步發展啦我們各大的社會保險是不是都有一個一致的退休金的這個彈性調整的機制對不對部長當初修法的時候我們在年改的時候就考慮了嘛我們的規定是CPI的多少"},{"start":676.738,"end":704.733,"text":"5%嘛 正負累積5% 都要檢討只要他是A或B嘛 CPI5%或是每四年就一定對不對A&B啦 都要所以這五年來的退休金的調漲我算了基於這一個檢討評估的機制 CPI跟著成長還有加上加薪大概調了6% 是不是沒有錯 我們調了兩次"},{"start":706.098,"end":726.135,"text":"所以說配合物價定期檢討來保障退休人員的基本生活所需跟符合社會的期待的這件事情我們當初年改的時候就考慮了最後一頁我看最後一頁就好我後面還有很多今天就不講對不起不是看國際國際OECD國家的平均所得替代率的平均數是50.7%"},{"start":729.451,"end":743.269,"text":"OECD國家50.7%台灣的話以2025年所得替代率66%年改66%為例但是因為我們是本縫兩倍用分母來算其實我們實質月退是高達77.9%"},{"start":745.692,"end":753.615,"text":"以現在2025年所以台灣的公教的實質月退的所得替代率是高達77.9%遠高於OECD國家的50.7%所以我希望這個議題我們真的可以專業的理性的好好來討論最後一頁"},{"start":763.104,"end":783.679,"text":"這是民生議題年改是民生議題年改是國家的永續年改是世代的正義我們讓民生第一我聽到在野黨的委員也都說這個會期要民生第一如果要民生第一的話我們就優先來推動民生的法案或是讓民生的法案能夠落實政黨的合作而不是政治的對抗"},{"start":784.6,"end":810.749,"text":"我希望新會期我們在司法法治委員會列下這樣子的互相勉勵的目標年改是民生請將民生議案適用政黨合作的方式而不是對抗的方式來推動我們理性的我一直在對著翁委員喊話希望朝委再安排後續我知道您可能安排公聽會啦 相關的討論讓我們的多元的意見可以被彰顯我們理性來看待年改的相關議案謝謝部長 謝謝秘書長 謝謝大家"},{"start":814.872,"end":815.23,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":900,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時4分）請劉秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長早，大家辛苦了。今天我的質詢是新會期的第一次，也剛好是這個時間點，我要給出我的兩個肯定跟一個呼籲，肯定我們的心理假要上路了，就在明天；另外也肯定考試院的永續報告書終於出爐了！","首先是心理假，在立法院，我真的是率先倡議到現在，教育先行，公務機關來接力，教育部的部分高中職全上路，大學從2個學校，我從一開始倡議到現在，127個學校都有，所以學校有了，關心學生的心理健康，公務機關是第二個接力的，我質詢了人事長，也4次質詢考試院相關的，包括施部長，4次加起來，終於看到一個好的結果。所以我要提醒，明天正式上路嘛，對不對？秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，明天。"],["吳委員思瑤：一個假別的反映不只是給需要的同仁以滿足他的需求，更重要的是藉由這個假別，讓我們所有公務體系的同仁能夠去關懷彼此，關照誰也許在面臨重大的身心壓力，這些執行我待會兒會跟人事總處分享，但是你們也是掌管所有公務同仁的相關事項，我給予肯定，但是不要忘了，它不是只多一個假，它背後其實是建構了賴清德總統關於健康臺灣，尤其是mental health這個部分，考試院有什麼新的想法嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：各機關因為都有員工協助的措施，這個部分應該持續來強化，因為大家越來越重視心理健康，也越來越了解這件事情的存在……"],["吳委員思瑤：其實這個假別的存在就可以讓我們有一個多的工具去觀察誰請了這個假，他也許正面臨著心理健康的suffer，需要我們出手來相助，我肯定你們，感謝你們，明天就要上路，這是所有公務機關的好消息。","第二個，我手上拿的是考試院終於也有永續報告書，行政院永續會要求所有的二級機關、地方政府都要有，我非常關心永續政策，我過去在教育及文化委員會發現中研院居然沒有，後來中研院也加入了，我轉到司法及法制委員會，我發現總統府也沒有，總統府現在也加入，謝謝考試院，不再缺一角，正式加入，謝謝你們！你有看這個報告書嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：有。"],["吳委員思瑤：裡面你們有18項工作，要對應於聯合國教科文組織的17個發展指標，很好！我也會定期來管考。除了考試院有永續報告之外，我們的國家基金主管機關也要有，我也在質詢臺上，勞動基金、郵儲基金都有永續報告書，你們的退撫基金有了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，應該是上上禮拜，我才看到那個初稿，已經交給我了，可能已經刊載了。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我跟你報告，就在今天！"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：就在今天，所以今天召委安排這個時間來質詢你們，非常好！我也肯定你們，就在今天，退撫基金的永續報告書今天出爐，我早上去要時，你們的同仁說很厚一本，很用心，我想要提供給所有關心司法及法制委員會的委員，好嗎？退撫基金的永續報告書很重要的內涵是什麼？就是我們投資碳足跡的這個部分要列進去，我當初揭露四大基金的投資碳足跡，退撫基金居然是最高的，換言之，有一個永續報告書，就可以透過公開揭露去檢視你們的投資，符合時代永續潮流的產業，這個會watch嘛？對不對？"],["施部長能傑：我們會努力。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以說，再次感謝！今天出爐，以後我也會follow，也希望我們的退撫基金真的是用在正確的投資，除了產生必要的效益之外，還要讓它永續，就你們的永續報告書裡頭的第12項工作，強化公務人員退撫基金及儲金運用的收益，要打造長期穩健及永續經營的年金退休機制，這就是對應於聯合國指標第10項的減少不平等，以及要打造一個和平正義的社會制度。所以做基金永續、照顧退休的穩健，是世界的趨勢，但是我很遺憾，這個會期我們的年改已經有幾個法案可能即將快速的要被討論，我希望充分討論，而不是強行輾壓。我們看看國民黨的朱立倫主席所說的，現在有通膨，生活的需求越來越高，所以再砍年金是不公平的，要確保維持退休人員的基本生活所需。這是朱立倫說的，他說的成不成立？現在政策有沒有做到？我們等一下可以來討論。傅崐萁總召在開議日說國民黨第一個優先法案就是公教反年改的法案，我真的覺得朝野要合作、多多對話，不要為快而快。我們看到在場的羅智強委員，他也是司法及法制委員會的委員，他現在參選國民黨黨主席，他把停砍年金的所得替代率成為他競選黨主席的政見，我覺得年金永續是民生議題，不要有政黨的政治化。當然，翁曉玲召委也提到年金改革違反公平正義，這個會期他擔任召委，我要跟召委再次的喊話，其實年金改革才是真正的落實公平正義，無論如何，我們期待新的會期司法及法制委員會讓對話、討論來取代過去的強行輾壓，這個議題可以討論，但真的不要為快而快，也是我對翁委員的請求。","我問一下兩位，兩個應該世代有一點點差異，一個我稱為老師，一個我稱為朋友、同學。老師，你一個月基本生活所需要花多少？"],["施部長能傑：我真的不多啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：是多少？有探及私人隱私就不方便講。"],["施部長能傑：我真的不多啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：真的不多？"],["施部長能傑：我的物質需求不高。"],["吳委員思瑤：會超過5萬塊嗎？"],["施部長能傑：不會啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長，你跟我的年紀比較相仿，依你的世代，如果方便透露的話，你的基本生活所需是多少？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我好像沒有算。"],["吳委員思瑤：你好像沒有算？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為都老婆在替你管，對不對？你個人的基本生活所需會超過5萬嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：就是量入為出。"],["吳委員思瑤：量入為出，這回答好像老婆虧待你的感覺。對於朱立倫主席所說的，依現在的通膨、生活指數，如果年金繼續砍下去，所得替代率不停砍的話，會影響退休公務同仁的基本生活所需。我認為就要去定義基本生活所需要多少是合理的，我這裡有一個衛福部公告的資料，六都及全臺灣2025年的最低生活費，它是一個參照，我們不是要每個人都過得這麼清苦，而是以官方所統計的最低生活費，首都貴了一點，每個月要2萬，六都除了臺南大概1萬5,000元之外，其他的新北、桃園、臺中、高雄大概都落在一萬六，這是一個全國的數字統整，非六都的平均基本生活所需算出來大概是一萬五。但是我們就來看看朱立倫主席所說的，現在的退撫如果不停砍的話，他們的退休金是沒有辦法支應其基本生活所需的。請問部長，現在公務人員跟教育人員的平均月退所得大概是多少？我這邊有試算，我的數字正確嗎？"],["施部長能傑：應該是這樣子講，我記得我們……"],["吳委員思瑤：您有……"],["施部長能傑：去年召開公聽會的時候，我們也有根據去年的數字去做一個平均值，大概應該都有超過5萬塊，教育人員會高一點。"],["吳委員思瑤：我這裡整理的數字，公務人員最新的數字是5萬656元，一個月一個人，教育人員的退休俸是5萬7,973元，其實都遠高於國家所試算的生活費range，當然我們不是要每個人都過得很清苦，但也不是每個人都要過得很超出基本需求之外。兩位可以分享一下嗎？教育人員有五萬七的平均退休所得，而勞工呢？這是我現在走到哪都面對到的最大問題，我想召委可能也會面對選民這樣的詢問。勞保加勞退的平均月退休所得，我們比一比就知道，大概不會超過兩萬五，所以比起來的話，公教是高出勞工朋友兩倍以上，那麼回到我所說的基本生活所需的衡量標準，如果五萬多以上的退休俸還難以維持基本生活，我覺得這個命題是值得我們再就社會的各個層面去理解。","尤其我們當初修法的時候，就已經針對所謂的通膨及社會不斷地進步發展，各大的社會保險是不是都有一個一致的退休金彈性調整機制，對不對？部長。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們在年改的時候就考慮了，我們的規定是CPI的多少？"],["施部長能傑：5%。"],["吳委員思瑤：5%嘛！"],["施部長能傑：正負累積5%。"],["吳委員思瑤：正負累積5%都要檢討，只要它是A or B，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：CPI 5%或是每四年就一定，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：A and B啦！都要。這五年來的退休金調漲，我算了一下，基於這一個檢討評估的機制，CPI跟著成長，還有加上加薪，大概調了6%，是不是？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯，我們調了兩次。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以配合物價定期檢討，以保障退休人員的基本生活所需跟符合社會期待的這件事情，我們當初年改的時候就考慮了。我們看國際，OECD國家所得替代率的平均數是50.7%，臺灣以2025年所得替代率66%為例，但因為我們是以本俸兩倍作為分母來算，其實我們實質月退是高達77.9%，是以現在、2025年來看。臺灣公教的實質月退所得替代率是高達77.9%，遠高於OECD國家的50.7%，所以我希望這個議題我們真的可以專業的、理性的好好來討論。","最後，年改是民生議題、年改是國家的永續、年改是世代的正義，我們讓民生第一，我聽到在野黨的委員也都說這個會期要民生第一，如果要民生第一的話，我們就優先來推動民生法案，或是讓民生法案能夠落實政黨的合作，而不是政治的對抗。我希望新會期我們在司法及法制委員會立下這樣子互相勉勵的目標，年改是民生，請將民生議案用政黨合作的方式，而不是對抗的方式來推動。我一直在對著翁委員喊話，希望召委在安排後續時，我知道您可能會安排公聽會等相關的討論，讓我們的多元意見可以被彰顯，我們理性來看待年改的相關議案。謝謝部長、謝謝秘書長，謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。確實我接下來可能就會安排有關於公教人員退休金再改革的公聽會，到時候我想會有很多方的意見，這個議題我認為其實也已經到了一個時機點，應該可以再重新討論，再檢視過去這樣的作法是否合理。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言，我在這裡先作程序上面的宣告，在陳委員詢答完畢之後，我們先休息5分鐘。"],["張委員啓楷：不要了吧！我們兩個問完就好了。"],["主席：沒有，因為後面還有人，我本來以為……我們在詢答完畢之後先休息5分鐘，緊接著再請羅委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62e48ce3d061e5e2bf119d4e8153da54efdcf33aa1b58936827884b307e7568acc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:51:57 - 11:04:37","影片長度":"00:12:40","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:51:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T11:04:37+08:00","duration":760,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.89409375,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.46721875,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.445968750000002,"end":18.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.98971875,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.86284375,"end":23.352218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.65159375,"end":25.782218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.54159375,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.594718750000006,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.197218750000005,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.05284375,"end":50.790968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.38159375,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.40221875,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.46721875,"end":78.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.68534375,"end":79.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.15346875,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.71784375,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.05784375,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.15784375000001,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.43534375,"end":113.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.71346875,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.19284375000001,"end":148.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.18909375,"end":155.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.83346875,"end":172.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.86471875,"end":176.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":189.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.77346875,"end":193.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.85721875000002,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.47721875000002,"end":204.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.89346875,"end":218.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.25409375,"end":242.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.98034375,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.40096875,"end":251.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.12659375,"end":264.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.42409375,"end":281.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.53534375000004,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.62784375,"end":290.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.97284375000004,"end":297.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.17409375,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.31721875,"end":320.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.86659375,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.13846875,"end":342.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.53471875,"end":350.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.05284375,"end":346.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.05221875,"end":367.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.96971875,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.06659375000004,"end":366.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.28596875000005,"end":370.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.76221875000005,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.12346875000003,"end":391.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.97096875,"end":384.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.33284375000005,"end":390.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.34534375000004,"end":394.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.64034375,"end":396.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.49221875,"end":403.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.80346875000004,"end":409.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.36034375,"end":405.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.00534375,"end":407.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.17784375,"end":410.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.27471875000003,"end":417.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.49784375,"end":415.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.14284375000005,"end":419.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.93159375000005,"end":420.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.75409375000004,"end":427.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.32284375,"end":439.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.57409375000003,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.91971875,"end":442.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.31159375000004,"end":447.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.05409375000005,"end":446.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.18034375,"end":455.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.82471875000005,"end":459.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.68909375000004,"end":465.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.28721875,"end":469.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.35409375,"end":475.06221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.36596875000004,"end":476.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.86784375,"end":478.85909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.97721875,"end":482.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.68971875000005,"end":483.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.02284375000005,"end":484.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.95096875,"end":494.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.77221875000004,"end":507.47909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.13284375,"end":509.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.85846875000004,"end":522.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.3290937500001,"end":530.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.29096875,"end":523.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.29409375,"end":538.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.33534375,"end":536.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.2590937500001,"end":544.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.94159375,"end":547.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.26596875,"end":552.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.34971875,"end":552.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.36659375,"end":554.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.45909375,"end":561.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.0234687500001,"end":572.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.6553437499999,"end":567.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.8190937500001,"end":577.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.60784375,"end":574.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.6584687500001,"end":575.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.27409375,"end":577.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.7465937500001,"end":585.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.96471875,"end":589.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.8503437500001,"end":589.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.5590937500001,"end":589.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.6940937500001,"end":589.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.8459687500001,"end":607.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.5403437500001,"end":601.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.52721875,"end":604.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.2565937500001,"end":609.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.18034375,"end":620.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.5122187500001,"end":632.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.69159375,"end":639.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.7578437500001,"end":654.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.12471875,"end":642.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.06846875,"end":652.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.65471875,"end":652.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.5278437500001,"end":665.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.3953437499999,"end":672.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.14096875,"end":681.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.59096875,"end":685.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.66221875,"end":688.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.75034375,"end":689.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.1340937500001,"end":692.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.7709687500001,"end":692.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.4797187500001,"end":692.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.9522187500002,"end":705.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.3984687500001,"end":700.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.97159375,"end":715.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.74596875,"end":723.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.9653437500001,"end":717.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.3784687500001,"end":720.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.8884687500001,"end":730.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.85346875,"end":733.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.94159375,"end":734.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.59534375,"end":736.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.7934687500001,"end":741.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.64909375,"end":749.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.96846875,"end":751.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.03159375,"end":753.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.9722187500001,"end":756.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.99721875,"end":757.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.6172187500001,"end":758.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.0134687500001,"end":760.4522187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.286,"end":17.909,"text":"主席我們先請秘書長那我是不是也請這個保訓會的蔡主委委員長秘書長早"},{"start":26.844,"end":53.193,"text":"這個我等一下這個有關的相關問題一些原則性的部分請秘書長回答那一些細節執行的部分可能請保全會主委這邊來答覆這個關於我們今天業務報告在第二頁的時候提到我這邊所列出來了有關於這個因為我們今年在今年的這個6月24號本院通過這個公務人員保障法的這個修正"},{"start":54.471,"end":77.139,"text":"那公布之後預計在明年的1月9號部分條文在明年1月9號開始實施了那也有半年的時間但是這個根據這個修法這個6月的修法這個裡面的第19條的第一項的授權我們有關這個"},{"start":79.235,"end":104.729,"text":"這個公務人員的這個安全衛生防護辦法公會辦法我們事實上是在緊接著我們在6月今年的6月29號就已經做修正那7月1號就開始實施了對不對那這個我看了這個你們的這些書面報告那這個還有相關的這些新聞稿"},{"start":106.332,"end":131.002,"text":"以及相關的這些修法說明這個部分我想這個公衛辦法確實是在公務人員反霸凌的部分霸凌的防治一個非常重要的法令也是重要的機制這個部分那時候我們在修法的時候本院也通過了許多決議跟附帶決議"},{"start":132.282,"end":152.908,"text":"我就一一檢視看我們這個當時的這些附帶決議做的其實我們考試院這邊其實我看是基本上該做的是做的相當的完備完備但是因為畢竟新法上路這部分我有一些部分要來跟這個我們考試院來這邊來了解一下我們這次這個"},{"start":156.892,"end":176.455,"text":"安慰辦法這個有關修法的部分說名稱也改了應該是按照依照19條的文字這公務人員保障法19條文字所以我們加上這個執行職務安全的部這幾個字這符合這個法令的授權大概有幾個比較重要的機制其中一個"},{"start":178.291,"end":194.805,"text":"一個就是必須要召開這個安全衛生諮詢會這是一個另外一個這個有關申訴機制的建立最重要的一個新建的我一個有關落實足跡監督檢查跟通報制度這部分過去沒有"},{"start":195.786,"end":224.705,"text":"也就是說有關於這些公務人員安全衛生防護的部分必須要足及定期專案安全抽檢對不對這部分是新的因為我們這個已經7月1號就已經開始實施我們這是公務人保障法上面授權的一個執法這個執法之下安危辦法本身它又必須要配合許多配套的這些法規必須要修改"},{"start":225.866,"end":250.807,"text":"那我看你們這邊你們的這個保訓會的這些業務報告裡面也說明的蠻清楚一些相關的這些執法配套措施你們大概也都做了修正包括這個健康檢查實施要點這些這個職場霸凌的防治處理原則包括這個安全衛生設施管理要點包括這個安全衛生防護抽查作業實施要點等等這些相關執法你們都已經做修正"},{"start":252.228,"end":264.085,"text":"我現在要了解的這個部分看市秘書長回答或是保訓會主委來回答因為我們按照這個我們現在所修訂的這個安慰辦法裡面的第四條"},{"start":265.509,"end":288.004,"text":"有規定第四條規定的是有關於這個這個安全衛生諮詢會的設置你們用的這個這個文字是主管機關得聘請也就得設置諮詢會諮詢會是得設置啦要不要設置不曉得那第五條的部分是這個安全衛生防護委員會這個是應設立每個機關都應該設立"},{"start":291.038,"end":320.091,"text":"那這個從7月1號到現在7月1號實施到現在已經10月今天已經10月9號了嘛今天10月9號了那實施到現在現行的這個中央部會跟地方政府機關是不是都已經按照這個規定成立了這個衛生防護委員會這部分能不能說明一下我們有沒有這個盤點我們有沒有去看目前所有的中央跟地方的這些相關機關是不是都已經設立了這個防護委員會"},{"start":323.061,"end":343.5,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝委員的這個之前的支持跟關心那首先就是說有關於各主管機關是不是已經設立的這個諮詢委員會因為就是誠如委員講我們在法律上是得但是我們有通函是希望而且是強烈的建議各主管機關應該設我先問防護委員會這個是"},{"start":344.681,"end":360.67,"text":"防務委員會是應設立的嘛應設立的現在目前中央機關跟地方機關是不是全部都已經設立了跟委員報告目前大部分機關有設立然後我們在9月23號已經發了一個全國性的通函請各機關在這個月底"},{"start":361.09,"end":369.521,"text":"之前要把我們所列出來的數十項有關安慰對 數十項數十項的這個check list就是說該做的事項都要來告訴我們到底"},{"start":376.97,"end":395.928,"text":"已完成跟未完成那未完成的原因是什麼我現在只問設立你們有沒有去掌握追蹤中央跟地方機關現在是不是都已經依照安慰辦法第五條都已經設置了法務委員會我們有大部分都設立了但是更具體的有沒有沒有設立的"},{"start":396.828,"end":416.753,"text":"這個我們要在10月31號的時候可以把統計的數字具體的提供給委員已經發函去我是覺得你們積極一點了你們現在已經7月1號實施到現在10月了又不是說一個月的時間而已現在到底全國而且這個是依照你們安慰辦法修訂的他應該要設立安慰防護委員會"},{"start":421.806,"end":446.967,"text":"那到現在到底有哪一些機關還沒有設立這個你們應該掌握吧你們是主管機關呢是那謝謝委員提醒那我們今天會後呢會再發一次的通函希望他們能夠在更早就在10月31號前就把這個數字都通通回填給我們他到底是不是已經成立了有沒有開過會這個我們保健委員會都應該要掌握是有目前有在追蹤"},{"start":449.164,"end":475.905,"text":"這個你們這個要長期你不是說發函請他們回函你們應該要去了解這個不難嘛這不難 這全國各機關你們就去了解他到底是不是已經依照第五條先了解他到底設置了沒有 設立了沒有那你這個因設立的你都還沒有全部掌握那諮詢會你們可能這邊手上現在也沒有資料吧到底有哪些機關成立了這個安全"},{"start":477.046,"end":494.011,"text":"這個安全及衛生的諮詢會這個得策立的諮詢會你們到底有多少機關成立的這個我們因為他是得但是我們有強烈的建議應該要設那這個是不是請容我們會後呢跟提供這個具體的數字給委員"},{"start":496.612,"end":507.282,"text":"你們事實上現在連設立的還是沒有設立你們也不清楚所以他的這些委員到底是誰這些各個機關的委員是誰你們現在也應該手上也沒有資料是不是"},{"start":509.996,"end":528.898,"text":"各機關的這個防護委員會他設立的他組成的是哪些委員內部的我們可能可以掌握但是他外部的部分呢這是各機關他自己的決定權我知道是他們決定權我只是說你們到底知不知道誰是委員哪一個機關的委員會的委員你們手上有沒有名單"},{"start":530.439,"end":551.762,"text":"跟委員報告因為全國的機關數非常多這個目前我們手上沒有這個各機關的組成委員到底是哪些人我是認為你們應該要掌握包括每個機關他所成立的這個安全防護委員會的這些委員到底是誰他們到底聘請哪些人做委員不管是內部的外部的我覺得你們都應該至少要有一份名單"},{"start":552.403,"end":571.795,"text":"好 謝謝委員提醒那我們在之後回去會在這個檢核表上面請各機關盡可能的提供給我們 謝謝因為你們也提到你們這個因為這個新制安全及衛生防護的新制上路所以你們積極辦理宣導是你們說你們從六月跟七月之間在北中南地區總共辦了六場"},{"start":572.896,"end":584.747,"text":"六個場次的大型宣導是參加人數有1118人是所以我現在要問的問題你可能應該沒有辦法回答這1118個人裡面有多少人他實際上是各機關的安全防護委員"},{"start":586.127,"end":607.282,"text":"跟委員報告我們這1118人主要在這一波裡面呢都是屬於各機關呢他要承辦這個安全衛生跟職場霸凌的這個案件的主要承辦人但是對但是他們一定都是這個委員之一但是呢我們在"},{"start":608.728,"end":630.576,"text":"這個明年已經要啟動就是所有各機關的安全及衛生防護委員會的每一個委員都要來參訊而且必須要經過測試及格這樣子啦 這個部分這樣問起來你們現在事實上都還沒有掌握啦還沒有全盤的掌握啦那畢竟是新法啦不過我希望你們在一個月內就全國各機關這個有關"},{"start":633.558,"end":638.901,"text":"這個安慰防護委員會他的成員跟他參加這個防護的這些職場霸凌防治訓練的狀況"},{"start":640.799,"end":664.78,"text":"提出一個書面報告可以嗎在一個月內說明他還有包括這些授訊包括他的授訊的比例他的期程他後續的這些追蹤機制我希望你們提出一個書面報告好 謝謝委員再來你們也應該要這個書面報告裡面請你們掌握你們還沒有設置的機關有哪一些機關到現在10月了還沒有設置這個安慰防治"},{"start":665.481,"end":688.182,"text":"委員會還沒有成立的有哪一些機關還沒有完成設立那這個如果說到現在我假設啦從7月1號實施到現在這過程中因為這個機關沒有設立安全防護委員會所以如果發生職場霸凌在這段期間發生職場霸凌他必須要向哪一個單位負責有哪一個單位負責受理跟調查"},{"start":688.923,"end":712.812,"text":"跟我們報告這段時間呢過渡時期他因為7月1號以後呢其實已經沒有在所謂的他可以過渡的所以基本上只要他有發生這樣子的事件他一定就要設立了因為他要先設立才能夠決定受理我剛問你你也不知道哪些機關現在目前機關設立了沒有萬一我現在在我的職場就發生霸凌了結果我的機關還沒有成立這個防護委員會那我怎麼辦"},{"start":717.329,"end":739.244,"text":"當發生這樣子的案子的時候機關就一定要立即成立其實按照公務員保障法第19條之二的第三項跟第四項就是你們保訓會主管如果我現在這個機關還沒有成立這個防護委員會我就直接向你們保訓會來提出你們保訓會就必須要接受這個負責這個受理跟調查"},{"start":743.193,"end":758.089,"text":"所以你們如果沒有掌握各個機關到底現在多少機關已經設立安衛防護委員會的話你就會遇到這個狀況這部分請你們這個在一個月內提出面報告給我啦好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":840,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時52分）主席，我們先請秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["沈委員發惠：我是不是也請保訓會的蔡主委？"],["主席：蔡主委。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長早。等一下相關的問題，一些原則性的部分請秘書長回答，一些細節執行的部分，可能請保訓會主委這邊來答復。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["沈委員發惠：關於今天業務報告在第2頁有提到，我這邊所列出來的，因為在今年6月24日本院通過公務人員保障法的修正，公布之後，部分條文預計在明年1月9日開始實施，等於有半年的時間，但是根據6月的修法，其中第十九條第一項的授權，有關公務人員的安全衛生防護辦法，我們事實上是緊接著在6月29日就已經做修正，7月1日就開始實施了。我看了你們的書面報告，還有相關的新聞稿以及相關的修法說明，我想這個公衛辦法確實是公務人員反霸凌防治非常重要的一個法令，也是重要的機制。關於這部分，我們在修法的時候，本院也通過了許多決議跟附帶決議，我就一一檢視，看我們當時所做的這些附帶決議。其實考試院基本上該做的事項是做得相當的完備，但是因為畢竟新法上路，我有一些部分要跟考試院這邊來了解一下。我們這次的安衛辦法，有關修法的部分，名稱也改了，應該是按照公務人員保障法第十九條文字，所以我們加上執行職務安全的這幾個字，以符合這個法令的授權。大概有幾個比較重要的機制，其中一個就是必須要召開安全衛生諮詢會，這是一個，另外一個有關申訴機制的建立，最重要的一個新建機制是，有關落實逐級監督檢查跟通報制度，這部分過去沒有，也就是有關於這些公務人員安全衛生防護的部分，必須要逐級、定期、專案、安全抽檢，對不對？這個部分是新的。因為我們7月1日就已經開始實施，這是公務人員保障法上面授權的一個子法，在這個子法之下，安衛辦法本身又要配合許多配套的法規必須要修改，我看你們保訓會的業務報告裡面也說明得滿清楚，一些相關子法配套措施，你們大概也都做了修正，包括健康檢查實施要點、職場霸凌的防治處理原則、安全衛生設施管理要點、安全衛生防護抽查作業實施要點等等，這些相關子法，你們都已經做修正。","我現在要了解的這個部分，看是秘書長回答或是保訓會主委來回答，因為按照我們現在所修訂的安衛辦法，其中第四條有規定，第四條規定的是有關於安全衛生諮詢會的設置，你們用的這個文字是「主管機關得聘請……」，也就是「得」設置諮詢會，諮詢會是「得」設置，要不要設置不曉得。第五條的部分是安全衛生防護委員會，這個是「應」設立，每一個機關都應該設立。從7月1日實施到現在，今天已經10月9日了，中央部會跟地方政府機關是不是都已經按照這個規定成立了衛生防護委員會，這部分能不能說明一下？你們有沒有盤點，有沒有去看目前中央跟地方所有這些相關機關是不是都已經設立了防護委員會？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，謝謝委員之前的支持跟關心，首先有關於各主管機關是不是已經設立了諮詢委員會，因為就是誠如委員所講，我們在法律上是「得」，但是我們有通函，希望而且是強烈的建議各主管機關應該設。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我分開問好了，我先問防護委員會，防護委員會是應設立的嘛？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：目前中央機關跟地方機關是不是全部都已經設立了？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，目前大部分機關有設立，然後我們在9月23日已經發了一個全國性的通函，請各機關在這個月底之前，要把我們列出來的數十項有關安衛……"],["沈委員發惠：10月底？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長先請回好了，我等一下如果有原則性的部分，我再請秘書長。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：我們列出數十項的checklist，就是有該做的事項都要來告訴我們到底是已完成或未完成，未完成的原因是什麼？"],["沈委員發惠：沒有，我現在只問設立，你們有沒有去掌握、追蹤？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有。"],["沈委員發惠：中央跟地方機關各個機關現在是不是都已經依照安衛辦法第五條設置了防護委員會？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：我們有，大部分都設立了，但是更具體的……"],["沈委員發惠：有沒有還沒有設立的？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：關於這個部分，我們在10月31日的時候，可以把統計數字具體的提供給委員。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：已經發函去……"],["沈委員發惠：我是覺得你們要積極一點，7月1日號實施到現在10月了，又不是一個月的時間而已，而且這是依照你們安衛辦法修訂的，它應該要設立安衛防護委員會，那麼到現在到底有哪一些機關還沒有設立，這個你們應該掌握吧？你們是主管機關。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，謝謝委員提醒。我們今天會後會再發一次的通函，希望他們能夠更早，在10月31日以前就把這個數字都通通回填給我們。"],["沈委員發惠：到底是不是已經成立了、有沒有開過會，你們保訓委員會都應該要掌握。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是，有，目前有在追蹤。"],["沈委員發惠：你們要長期掌握，不是發函請他們回函，你們應該要去了解，這個不難嘛！全國各機關，你們就去了解它到底是不是已經依照第五條設置了？先了解它到底設立了沒有，這個「應」設立的，你都還沒有全部掌握，那麼諮詢會，你可能手上現在也沒有資料吧？到底有哪些機關成立了這個「得」設立的安全及衛生諮詢會，你們到底有多少機關成立了？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為它是「得」，但是我們有強烈建議應該要設，這個是不是容我們會後提供具體的數字給委員？"],["沈委員發惠：好。所以你們事實上現在連有設立還是沒有設立，你們也不清楚，它的這些委員到底是誰、各個機關的委員是誰，你們現在手上應該也沒有資料，是不是？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：各機關的防護委員會其組成的是哪些委員，內部的我們可能可以掌握，但是外部的部分是各機關自己的決定權。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道這是他們的決定權，沒有說要你們決定，我只是說你們到底知不知道誰是委員，機關的委員會的委員有哪些，你們手上有沒有名單？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，因為全國的機關數非常多，目前我們手上沒有關於各機關的組成委員到底是哪些人的資料。"],["沈委員發惠：我認為你們應該要掌握，包括每一個機關所成立的安全及衛生防護委員會的這些委員到底是誰，他們到底聘請哪些人做委員，不管是內部的、外部的，我覺得你們都應該至少要有一份名單。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝委員提醒，我們之後回去會在檢核表上面，請各機關儘可能的提供給我們，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：今天你們也提到，因為安全及衛生防護的新制上路，所以你們積極辦理宣導，譬如說你們6月跟7月之間在北、中、南地區總共辦了6個場次的大型宣導，參加人數有1,118人，所以我現在要問的問題，你應該也沒有辦法回答，這1,118個人裡面，有多少人實際上是各機關的安全及衛生防護委員？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，在這一波裡面的這1,118人都是屬於各機關要承辦安全衛生跟職場霸凌案件的主要承辦人。"],["沈委員發惠：承辦人？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對，他們一定都是委員之一，我們明年會啟動，就是所有機關的安全及衛生防護委員會的每一個委員都要來參訓，而且必須要經過測試及格。"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分這樣問起來，你們現在都還沒有全盤的掌握，畢竟是新法，不過我希望你們在一個月內，就全國各機關有關安衛防護委員會其成員跟參加防護的這些職場霸凌防治訓練的狀況，提出一個書面報告，可以嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好。"],["沈委員發惠：在一個月內，說明要包括這些受訓的比例、期程、後續的這些追蹤機制，我希望你們提出一個書面報告。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：再來，在這個書面報告裡面，也請你們掌握還沒有設置的機關，有哪一些機關到現在10月了還沒有設置安衛防護委員會？有哪些機關還沒有完成設立？我假設從7月1號實施到現在，在這過程中，因為這個機關沒有設立安衛防護委員會，如果在這段期間發生職場霸凌，它必須要向哪一個單位提出，由哪一個單位負責受理跟調查？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，這段時間……"],["沈委員發惠：過渡時期。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：因為7月1號以後，它其實已經沒有所謂的可以過渡了，所以基本上，只要它有發生這樣子的事件……"],["沈委員發惠：那如果還沒設立呢？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：它一定就要設立了，因為它要先設立，才能夠決定受理。"],["沈委員發惠：但是我剛剛問你，你也不知道現在哪些機關設立了沒有，萬一現在我的職場就發生霸凌了，但我的機關還沒有成立防護委員會，那我怎麼辦？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：當發生這樣子的案子的時候，機關就一定要立即成立……"],["沈委員發惠：其實按照公務人員保障法第十九條之二的第三項、第四項，就是由你們保訓會主管，如果現在這個機關還沒有成立防護委員會，我就直接向你們保訓會提出，你們保訓會就必須要接受，負責受理跟調查。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["沈委員發惠：所以你們如果沒有掌握到底現在有多少機關已經設立安衛防護委員會的話，你會遇到這個狀況，這部分請你們在一個月內提書面報告給我，好不好？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員。","接下來我們請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb623f38eaa6bf2c6e65119d4e8153da54ef9ebc85139e6d204f025346619b12521c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:37:52 - 10:51:37","影片長度":"00:13:45","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:37:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:51:37+08:00","duration":825,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.72659375,"end":3.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.122843750000001,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.864718750000002,"end":13.345343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.712218750000002,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.63971875,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.17971875,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.72784375,"end":23.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.672843750000002,"end":41.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.69534375,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.719093750000006,"end":52.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.33909375,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.76909375,"end":57.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.92909375,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.93596875,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.56846875000001,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.10284375,"end":81.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.46534375,"end":84.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.14846875,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.04284375,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.37596875,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.18159375,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.90596875,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.69409375000001,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.22284375000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.63596875,"end":124.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.29409375,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.94284375,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.29284375,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.52471875,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.42721875,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.83971875,"end":145.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.01659375,"end":151.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.85534375,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.12096875,"end":163.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.62096875,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.54846875,"end":183.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.86909375000002,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.61159375,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.01096875000002,"end":184.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.05284375000002,"end":188.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.66846875000002,"end":187.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.01846875,"end":188.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.50784375,"end":188.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.52471875,"end":191.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.65534375000001,"end":190.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.90409375000002,"end":201.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.61971875,"end":201.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.22721875000002,"end":210.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.49159375000002,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.23409375,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.24659375000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.67659375000002,"end":215.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.18596875,"end":226.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.57784375000003,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.35409375,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.07909375000003,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.71159375000002,"end":242.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.63909375000003,"end":240.07784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.01846875,"end":244.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.00534375,"end":248.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.86971875,"end":250.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.70909375000002,"end":253.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.49346875,"end":263.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.83096875,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.60159375,"end":293.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.94284375,"end":301.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.87409375000004,"end":335.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.44971875000005,"end":317.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.87721875,"end":336.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.99096875000004,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.59409375,"end":344.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.23034375000003,"end":344.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.37784375,"end":365.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.72909375,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.96909375,"end":405.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.63846875,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.09284375000004,"end":414.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.60721875,"end":417.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.80534375,"end":449.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.68221875,"end":453.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.10346875000005,"end":457.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.95096875,"end":459.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.26721875000004,"end":461.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.46096875,"end":470.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.09659375,"end":477.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.76221875000005,"end":477.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.65659375,"end":480.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.05721875,"end":486.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.07721875000004,"end":488.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.54534375000003,"end":492.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.67534375,"end":494.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.62034375,"end":495.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.83534375000005,"end":497.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.40471875000003,"end":498.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.68284375,"end":502.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.10846875000004,"end":503.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.50909375000003,"end":504.52596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.52596875000006,"end":504.59346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.59346875000006,"end":504.98159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.61034375,"end":507.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.98534375,"end":516.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.61346875000004,"end":512.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.8447187500001,"end":516.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.92909375,"end":518.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.94596875,"end":516.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.9797187500001,"end":518.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.86971875,"end":521.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.87346875,"end":526.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.1384687500001,"end":536.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.9934687500001,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.03534375,"end":549.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.76409375,"end":549.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.43034375,"end":549.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.97034375,"end":566.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.44034375,"end":570.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.5078437500001,"end":566.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.80284375,"end":570.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.1865937499999,"end":570.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.94596875,"end":578.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.5109687500001,"end":574.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.51034375,"end":578.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.1303437500001,"end":579.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.26534375,"end":579.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.2822187500001,"end":579.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.92346875,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.9740937500001,"end":584.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.6315937500001,"end":597.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.6653437500001,"end":584.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.9184687500001,"end":584.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.0347187500001,"end":598.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.8740937499999,"end":598.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.46471875,"end":620.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.3728437500001,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.97596875,"end":635.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.8640937499999,"end":645.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.5290937500001,"end":657.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.13909375,"end":659.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.64096875,"end":666.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.96471875,"end":669.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.4240937500001,"end":673.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.2547187499999,"end":683.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.8015937499999,"end":692.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.9522187500002,"end":694.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.3484687499999,"end":698.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.16659375,"end":699.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.32659375,"end":714.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":715.5984687499999,"end":721.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":722.4665937500001,"end":740.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":740.80971875,"end":749.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":745.9228437500001,"end":746.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.2178437500002,"end":759.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.4015937500001,"end":762.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.4897187500001,"end":767.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.67034375,"end":769.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.8178437500001,"end":772.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.75409375,"end":793.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":794.35409375,"end":794.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":795.24846875,"end":800.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.98596875,"end":801.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":801.82971875,"end":803.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":804.7490937500002,"end":807.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":807.1284687500001,"end":807.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":807.33096875,"end":810.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":811.12784375,"end":813.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":813.38909375,"end":820.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.51034375,"end":820.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":821.25284375,"end":821.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":822.1303437500001,"end":822.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.51409375,"end":823.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.8347187500001,"end":826.60221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.533,"end":12.637,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們考試院劉秘書長還有考選部劉部長全序部我們司部長委員長"},{"start":23.72,"end":40.92,"text":"民務長還有兩位部長我想我延續剛剛有委員提到的問題再來追問你像我們這一次的預算中心有提到這個是公務人員高資低用這個人數我看剛剛召委他也很關心"},{"start":41.821,"end":69.602,"text":"但是呢這個預算中心這種寫法會產生很大的一個誤解啦有時候會造成說我領比較高的薪水然後去降調這好像有點偷懶這個我們在鄉下其實我們碰到很多很多人是因為啊我就沒有這個在職場上沒有這樣的一個職缺或者說我就很想回到我自己的故鄉有的人夫妻相隔兩地啊其實很重要的一個觀念"},{"start":71.009,"end":86.158,"text":"這個反而去降調的人在我所碰到的一個服務案件的案例裡面常常都是對職場上是最負責任的人對制度負責我要到其他的地方去我只好降調"},{"start":87.862,"end":102.48,"text":"這個對制度就是負責他也對他的家庭負責我要照顧我的父母親我要照顧我的家庭因素很多我反而會覺得說升官 升到最高的人"},{"start":103.749,"end":118.539,"text":"官場未必就只有升官你專業能力被肯定當然是升官可是很多性盡之徒都升官他未必是有責任的而這是降調的人他是更有責任默默的貢獻出他的一個專業所以我反而會覺得說這個預算中心這種寫法這個只是一語之鑑那但是本身有個看法"},{"start":125.547,"end":142.514,"text":"這預算中心點出這樣一個問題那是不是我們也應該去檢討目前降調制度它的一個考慮去設置一個制度說如何去當作植物的一個轉換"},{"start":143.934,"end":170.709,"text":"或者說彈性配置的一個制度出來讓這個降調的人他變成說他又不失去他的專業還有對整個他職務上這樣的一個熱忱為這個職場來做出貢獻我不曉得三位的看法是怎麼樣謝謝委員對這個議題的關心特別來自南台灣我理解"},{"start":171.61,"end":185.274,"text":"常常碰到啊所以我剛剛有回答說這個報告本身可能寫事實但是有很多複雜的原因啦所以對於降調的人本身很多降調會減錢耶會 會有的時候就沒有主管家級啦或者說沒有專業家級啦會"},{"start":190.995,"end":208.292,"text":"每個個案不一樣我應該這樣講可能在不同地區去做降調或者你降調到學校或降調到行政機關這樣都是沒有人的選擇啦應該這樣講啦所以啦我的意思是說預算中心講也不是全部都不對那翁委員關心的也不是不對但只是說我們要怎麼樣來設計出一個制度讓說"},{"start":213.417,"end":220.745,"text":"我就有這樣的一個專長可是呢我又沒有這樣的一個職缺我又必須要去降調這個就可惜了你有沒有覺得我們公務體系裡面應該有一個制度我們是有一個事求人人求事的公開找人的制度都會上網啦是就在 那是那個"},{"start":234.898,"end":262.431,"text":"蘇俊榮任市長他們那個apply一個市求人人求事其實很多公務人員要找缺他都一定要公告他就去那邊看但重點是現在的結果就是導出預算中心給你點出有這麼多人去降調還是要想辦法解決啦好不好好我們會再繼續來是的好好地研議看看啦那我想啊要另外一個問題要請教就是說韓國現在一個國營的資料中心期會齁"},{"start":263.686,"end":286.181,"text":"那結果呢這個造成19萬名公務人員的資料全數就遺失這顯示這其實就是說他這整個數位的基礎建設缺乏備援跟災難的復原的一個機制這場火裡面他不是只有燒掉伺服器燒出了制度上的漏洞我看他這次647個系統裡面說只有20倍的有災難備援的一個計畫這個其實不是只有韓國的問題"},{"start":294.248,"end":300.885,"text":"這個是全世界政府的一個警訊所以我要請教我們考試院的說我們的資通的韌性"},{"start":304.447,"end":315.271,"text":"我們考試院跟全序部還有考選部我們現在在推動全面的一個數位化這個方向我相信大家都知道很正確但是我們這個系統我們有沒有安全這也就是說我們這些國家級的一個系統裡面有沒有定期的一個災難的一個復原的一個演練那備援系統的復原"},{"start":326.636,"end":343.972,"text":"它的覆蓋率到底會是多少 會不會像韓國那樣 要收了 一個收了之後要六七百個 還要存二十幾個 變成它覆蓋率就這麼的少那意思就是說 世界上韓國這樣 只有幾個系統有備援其他好像都裸奔一樣 請具體回答"},{"start":346.207,"end":364.664,"text":"考選部是那個治安A級單位意思是我們必須每年接受是全國最高等級的那個檢視那基本上委員所說的大概是幾個原則1D存放 1D備援所以覆蓋率是百分之百我們基本上我們的關鍵核心資料一定必須做到1D存放跟1D備援"},{"start":366.151,"end":388.303,"text":"異地就是一定要在不同的地方我在當律師的時候 我常常跟當事人大家想一想 有天不順的監獄裡面關那麼多人訴訟階段有那麼多人 那麼多犯罪的嫌疑人那有一天 不管是法務部或司法院資料中心全部被牽住了 資料都收掉了我看你裡面的犯人要怎麼樣要被告也要怎麼樣 全部大家都不在意"},{"start":393.146,"end":397.732,"text":"我曾經去想過這樣的一個問題啦那所以其實就是一個備援的制度過去就資本嘛你現在都數位化嘛那所以部長你的想法是說現在全部我們的覆蓋率百分之百對 一定要至少關鍵核心之下一定要異地存放跟異地備援"},{"start":410.507,"end":416.191,"text":"那這個做了就不錯了年度要演練所以沒有問題就對了那很好啊那我接下來要請教一個問題就是說我們現在談說電腦化的一個測試考選部你在115年度學習部部長請回"},{"start":427.92,"end":453.393,"text":"一百一十五年度要擴大辦理新增的驗光師 驗光生還有第三次護理師還有司法官跟律師的第二次這個方向都對代表國家邁向一個數位的一個時代但是我要請問的就是說這些考區裡面我們有沒有去做過壓力測試或模擬演練如果發生技術故障有沒有明確應變的SOP來 請保長你回跟委員報告 有但是所以我們現在其實最"},{"start":454.193,"end":477.63,"text":"最主要就是要處理私立二因為私立二是深論題那而且它是基本上是競爭性的考試所以你們全部都有私立二最重要要處理的那個它的演練過程要避免有電力異常所以我們會在私立二我們會有核心市場我們核心市場考試的時候會全部被發電機我都沒什麼要相信"},{"start":478.74,"end":503.611,"text":"我可以請委員到時候來看我們現在建立國家電腦的市場裡面你現在金門也有啦那我看從台北考區 桃園 新竹 台中 台南 高雄屏東 花蓮金門也都有啦我要請教就是說金門可以離島嘛不要這樣奔波嘛台東為什麼沒有"},{"start":506.074,"end":525.56,"text":"主要是他的學校他缺乏可以讓我們設置這個市場的學校所以我們的要求就是說你必須要在最好是在同一個資訊大樓有足夠的電腦我覺得這樣就不對了我覺得這樣就不對了考卷部我們也去補助了很多大學敢設置電腦市場"},{"start":527.49,"end":551.638,"text":"台東也有台東大學這樣我覺得怎麼好像是你缺了台東這個就不太對你現在拿了200台電腦去嘛那個是要建置整個行動化電腦市場其實那規格老實說比一般的反而規格更高那當然我的意思就是說缺台東我就覺得不對"},{"start":553.118,"end":574.751,"text":"因為他也有蘭嶼啊他也有列島啊也有這些離島的考生他必須要去應試啊那你這一次你說電腦市場裡面你給台東考區你給他兩百台電腦不是給他 是我們直接去那裡設一個行動你設了 你如果要停電呢你如果斷線呢筆電最不怕停電筆電是這樣 對我們每一個筆電會配兩到三個電源你如果斷線呢"},{"start":579.233,"end":584.075,"text":"筆電當然他未必是要插電啦電腦有膠當然就可以啦但是問題我的意思是萬一斷線又一設備出問題那你怎麼辦我要說的就是說他畢竟跟國家電腦市場來做比較的話對考生權益來講的話他還是不夠周延啦"},{"start":599.86,"end":617.794,"text":"跟委員報告我們的筆電的行動一定是完全按照我們現在的所有的這個規格但是如果說能夠有學校來提供固定位置當然更好所以如果說在這一點的話就是說有辦法能夠有學校來出現來合格的一個學校"},{"start":619.045,"end":633.204,"text":"非常樂觀其成我們不要只說樂觀其成啦我是認為說這個講法都會覺得說好像讓台東去自生自滅啦你要到大學裡面如果有那個比較好的設備啊我考選部加我當然樂觀其成這樣怎麼好"},{"start":635.968,"end":641.251,"text":"以國家電腦市場來講的話 針對全國各地的考生他權益站在考選部的立場 你要一併去跟他做保障你國家要輸的話 要輸的話 台東要看你喔 看你自己喔你自己如果更進步 台北的設備如果更好 考選部我在這裡 樂觀其成喔好 弄一個 我覺得這個態度不好"},{"start":661.007,"end":681.137,"text":"每一個台北來電腦 他們到設備的時候你們就會去補助他設置這個國家電腦市場啊所以站台上 我會覺得偏鄉的地方用這種臨時的方案這樣子硬撐對整個公職或者說專業認證的一些考試對這些考生來講的話"},{"start":685.558,"end":713.143,"text":"更不好的就是說你國家電腦的一個市場這個是指個數位國家的一個基本建設我認為那是一個投資建設的話 我們在那邊講啊要智能政府啊智能政府阿嘎吉全台灣大家都智能電 都政府台東不用變智能的一個政府要智能的政府我看我們就從智慧考試開始 好不好"},{"start":715.679,"end":719.488,"text":"我簡單補充一下第一個就是說我們對電腦市場的設置"},{"start":723.157,"end":748.364,"text":"考試院的資源很有限他可以投資基本的設備但是他還需要學校本身有足夠的電腦教室那現在在台東用行動的這個方式來處理其實也是彌補這個當地資源的不足這是考選部的努力那委員希望能夠有一個穩定的比如說在那邊設置一個就是固定的這個電腦市場的話那看怎麼樣有爭取到更多的資源我們一起來努力"},{"start":749.204,"end":767.436,"text":"秘書長 我的概念不只這樣不只是說那個地方的設備把它弄好是我們政府的政策你要推數位化的話偏鄉你就不能把它給漏掉你要智能政府 你要數位化你說靠一腳 缺了一腳"},{"start":768.975,"end":788.971,"text":"這樣不好啦對制度的一個投資這不是浪費啦更何況這是政府在對我們一直在談數位的一個轉型結果你讓偏鄉的考生沒有辦法站在同一條起跑線上我認為這個政府要趕快去做一個改善好不好把他當成重要的事情啦給他欠一件啦那錢不會花多少啦秘書長 保證你來想一個辦法你不可以 那我告訴你"},{"start":795.336,"end":822.29,"text":"這附近兩個灶圍 都夠閃亮的 都停泥了我跟王朝的都停泥 台東緊衝一下 好不好可以嗎這個我們再去跟您報告和緊衝衝 數位政府偏鄉的地方沒有跟上 這個就是假的那是國家對制度的一個投資我們把這個整個數位政府高唱露營結果說 那個地方 台東人跟你講說你唬爛 我這邊又沒有 不好 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":824.386,"end":826.342,"text":"謝謝莊委員我也非常支持莊委員的建議"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時37分）謝謝主席，有請考試院劉秘書長、考選部劉部長、銓敘部施部長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長、劉部長、施部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長還有兩位部長，我想延續剛剛有委員提到的問題再來追問，像我們這一次的預算中心有提到公務人員高資低用的人數，剛剛召委也很關心，但是預算中心這種寫法會產生一個很大的誤解，有時候會造成我領比較高的薪水，然後去降調，這好像有點偷懶。這個在鄉下其實我們碰到很多，很多人是因為在職場上沒有這樣的職缺，或是我就很想回到我自己的故鄉，有的人夫妻相隔兩地。其實這有很重要的一個觀念，在我所碰到的服務案件的案例裡面，這個去降調的人反而常常都是對職場上最負責任的人，對制度負責，我要到其他的地方去，我只好降調，這個對制度就是負責，他也對他的家庭負責，我要照顧我的父母親、我要照顧我的家庭，因素很多。我反而會覺得，升官升到最高的人，官場未必只有升官，你的專業能力被肯定當然是升官，可是很多倖進之徒，升官未必是有責任的，反而是降調的人，他是更有責任默默在貢獻他的專業，所以我反而會覺得預算中心的這種寫法只是一隅之見。","但是本席有一個看法，預算中心點出這樣的問題，是不是我們也應該去檢討目前降調的制度，對於如何做職務的轉換或者彈性配置設計一個制度出來，讓這個降調的人又不失去他的專業，還有對職務上的熱忱，為這個職場來做出貢獻，不曉得三位的看法是怎麼樣？"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員對這個議題的關心，特別委員來自南臺灣，我理解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就常常碰到。"],["施部長能傑：我理解，所以我剛剛有回答說，這個報告本身可能寫的是事實，但是有很多複雜的原因，對於降調的人本身來說，在南部有的是要回去照顧家庭……"],["莊委員瑞雄：降調會讓薪水減少。"],["施部長能傑：有的是要回去照顧家庭，都有啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：會，有的就沒有主管加給或者沒有專業加給。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：錢一定會少。"],["施部長能傑：每個個案不一樣，我應該這樣講，可能在不同地區去做降調，或者降調到學校或行政機關，都是不同的選擇，應該是這樣講。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我的意思是，預算中心講的也不是全部都不對。"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：翁委員關心的也不是不對，只是我們要怎麼樣設計出一個制度，否則有相關專長的人只因為沒有相應的職缺而必須降調，這個就可惜了，你不覺得我們公務體系裡面應該有一個制度嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我們有一個事求人、人求事公開找人的制度，都會上網。蘇俊榮人事長他們有operate一個事求人、人求事的網站，其實很多公務人員要找缺，都一定要公告，他們就去那裡看。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，但重點是現在的結果就是導出預算中心點出有這麼多人降調的問題，所以還是要想辦法解決，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好，我們會再繼續看看這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，研議看看。"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外一個問題要請教的是，韓國國營的資料中心日前發生火災，結果造成19萬名公務員的資料全數遺失，顯示整個數位基礎建設缺乏備援及災難復原機制。這場火不是只有燒掉伺服器，還燒出了制度上的漏洞，在647個系統裡面，僅有28個有災難備援計畫。其實不是只有韓國有這個問題，這是全世界政府的警訊，所以我要請教考試院，我們的資通韌性準備好了嗎？考試院、銓敘部及考選部現在在推動全面數位化，大家都知道這個方向很正確，但是這個系統是否安全？我們的國家級系統有沒有定期的災難復原演練？備援系統的覆蓋率到底是多少？會不會像韓國那樣，一場火災之後，六百多個系統只剩下二十幾個，覆蓋率變得這麼少？這次韓國只有幾個系統有備援，其他好像都裸奔一樣。請具體回答。"],["劉部長孟奇：考選部是資安A級單位，意思是我們必須每年接受全國最高等級的檢視。基本上委員所說的大概是幾個原則：異地存放、異地備援，然後……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以覆蓋率是百分之百？"],["劉部長孟奇：基本上我們的關鍵核心資料一定必須做到異地存放及異地備援。異地就是一定要在不同的地方。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我在當律師的時候，常常跟當事人想一些「有孔無榫」的。像監獄裡面關那麼多人，訴訟階段有那麼多犯罪嫌疑人，不管是法務部或司法院，如果有一天資料中心全部的資料都遺失、燒掉了，裡面的犯人該怎麼辦？被告該怎麼辦？不就大家全部都沒事，在外面到處晃？我曾經想過這樣的問題，這其實就是備援的制度，過去是紙本，現在都數位化。部長，你的想法是現在我們全部的覆蓋率是百分之百？"],["劉部長孟奇：對，一定要，至少關鍵核心資料一定要異地存放及異地備援。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個做的就不錯了。"],["劉部長孟奇：然後年度要演練一次。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，所以沒有問題就對了？"],["劉部長孟奇：對，我們是資安A級，一定要演練很久。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那很好，銓敘部部長請回。我接下來要請教一個問題，我們現在談電腦化的測試，考選部在115年度要擴大辦理新增的驗光師、驗光生、第三次護理師考試，以及司法官及律師第二試，這個方向都對，代表國家邁向數位化的時代，但是我要請問的是，這些考區有沒有做過壓力測試或模擬演練？如果發生技術故障，有沒有臨機應變的SOP？請部長回答。"],["劉部長孟奇：跟委員報告，有，所以我們現在其實最主要就是要處理司律二，因為司律二是申論題，而且基本上是競爭性的考試。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你們全部都有？"],["劉部長孟奇：司律二現在最重要處理的演練是要避免有電力異常，所以我們在司律二會有核心試場，核心試場考試的時候會全部備發電機。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我都不太相信。"],["劉部長孟奇：我可以請委員到時候來看。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我為什麼不太相信，你知道嗎？你要想，我們要建立國家電腦的試場，現在金門也有，我看從臺北、桃園、新竹、臺中、臺南、高雄、屏東、花蓮到金門都有。我要請教的是，金門是離島，設立的目的是為了不讓人奔波，那臺東為什麼沒有，臺東也有兩個離島？"],["劉部長孟奇：主要是它的學校缺乏可以讓我們設置這個試場的學校，因為我們的要求是最好在同一個資訊大樓有足夠的電腦，目前臺東比較缺乏這樣的學校。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得這樣就不對了。考選部也補助了很多大學，幫他們設置電腦試場，臺東也有臺東大學，我的感覺是你們缺了臺東，這個就不太對。你現在拿了200臺電腦去嘛？"],["劉部長孟奇：那個是要建置整個行動化電腦試場，老實說那個規格比一般的反而更高、更安全。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然，我的意思是缺了臺東，我就覺得不對，因為它也有蘭嶼、綠島，這些離島的考生必須去應試。你說你們這一次電腦試場給臺東考區200臺電腦……"],["劉部長孟奇：不是給它，是我們直接去那裡設一個行動試場。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你設了以後，萬一停電、斷線呢？"],["劉部長孟奇：筆電最不怕停電。"],["莊委員瑞雄：真的嗎？"],["劉部長孟奇：對，我們每一個筆電會配2到3個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果斷線呢？筆電未必要插電，只要電力足夠當然就可以。"],["劉部長孟奇：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是，萬一斷線、設備又出問題，你怎麼辦？我要說的是，畢竟它跟國家電腦試場來做比較的話，對考生權益來講，它還是不夠周延。"],["劉部長孟奇：跟委員報告，我們的筆電型號一定是完全按照現在所有的規格，但是如果能夠有學校提供固定位置當然更好，所以如果有辦法能夠有學校出線、有合格的學校，我們非常樂觀其成。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們不要只說「樂觀其成」，我認為這個講法會讓人覺得好像讓臺東自生自滅，你說如果當地的大學有比較好的設備，你們考選部當然「樂觀其成」，這樣怎麼好？以國家電腦試場來講，為了全國各地考生的權益，站在考選部的立場，你要一併加以保障。國家要數位化，卻要等到臺東自己比較進步、大學裡面的設備比較好以後，考選部對於在臺東設電腦試場「樂觀其成」，再在當地設一個，我覺得這個態度不好。我看每一個大學的設備如果合格的時候，你們就會去補助他們設置國家電腦試場，所以目前只缺臺東沒有，我會覺得偏鄉的地方用這種臨時的方案硬撐，對整個公職或者專業認證考試的考生來講是不好的；更不好的是，國家電腦試場是數位國家的基本建設，我認為那是一個投資。我們在講智能政府，哪有這麼奇怪，全臺灣都是智能政府，唯有臺東不必變成智能政府？要有智能的政府，我看我們就從智慧考試開始，好不好？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我簡單補充一下。第一個，關於我們對電腦試場的設置，考試院的資源很有限，可以投資基本的設備，但是還需要學校本身有足夠的電腦教室。現在在臺東用行動的方式來處理，其實也是彌補當地資源的不足，這是考選部的努力。委員希望能夠在那邊設置一個穩定、固定的電腦試場的話，看怎麼樣爭取到更多的資源，我們一起來努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不只、不只，秘書長，我的概念不只這樣。不只是把那個地方的設備弄好，而是我們政府的政策要推數位化的話，就不能把偏鄉漏掉，你要推智能政府、數位化，卻缺了一角，這樣不好。對制度的投資不是浪費，更何況政府一直在談數位轉型，結果你讓偏鄉的考生沒有辦法站在同一條起跑線上，我認為政府要針對這個部分趕快改善，好不好？把它當成重要的事情，只缺這一部分，那個錢不會花很多，秘書長、部長，你們要想一個辦法，我跟你說，立法院這個會期兩個召委都有夠善良的，都挺你啦！我跟翁召委都挺你，臺東的部分趕快弄一下，好不好？可以嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，這個我們再去跟你報告和……"],["莊委員瑞雄：趕快弄一弄。數位政府，偏鄉的地方沒有跟上，這個就是假的，那個是國家對制度的一個投資。我們把這整個數位政府高唱入雲，結果臺東人跟你講：你唬爛，我這邊又沒有。這不好！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，我也非常支持莊委員的建議，我想應該要把所謂數位普及、數位化的程度，偏鄉跟都市都要一併的拉齊，所以也希望考選部、考試院能夠努力加把勁，謝謝。","接下來請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62448f9a368c4ea9ea819c05f3ca7f3b919ebc85139e6d204f73de26ceb07beb505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:19:12 - 10:37:12","影片長度":"00:18:00","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:19:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:37:12+08:00","duration":1080,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.84346875,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.06159375,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.27596875,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.72534375,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.83471875,"end":47.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.955968750000004,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.204718750000005,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.891593750000006,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.08971875,"end":59.633468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.970968750000004,"end":60.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.47284375,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.447218750000005,"end":64.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.21909375,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.83034375,"end":72.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.66096875000001,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.10784375,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.82909375,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.28409375000001,"end":83.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.59159375,"end":86.16096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.43096875,"end":88.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.56971875,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.23596875000001,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.59846875000001,"end":94.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.42534375000001,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.58096875000001,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.19659375,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.74846875,"end":108.68909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.99284375,"end":110.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.52846875,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.53534375000001,"end":128.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.54659375,"end":129.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.69846875000002,"end":130.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.18784375,"end":130.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.01471875000001,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.70221875000001,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.10284375,"end":135.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.16159375,"end":141.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.76409375,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.97034375,"end":149.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.21846875,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.79159375,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.37659375,"end":165.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.47784375,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.96284375000002,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.97096875,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.86534375000002,"end":172.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.17284375,"end":174.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.56909375,"end":174.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.58596875,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.61971875,"end":175.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.88534375,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.63159375,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.17971875,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.32284375,"end":185.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.65596875,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.29284375,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.74409375000002,"end":192.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.54096875000002,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.61659375000002,"end":195.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.10159375,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.60346875000002,"end":198.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.98721875,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.88971875000001,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.16784375,"end":206.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.39534375000002,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.48346875000001,"end":211.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.33534375000002,"end":213.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.59659375,"end":222.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.35034375,"end":225.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.81846875000002,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.20159375,"end":234.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.67784375000002,"end":235.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.82096875000002,"end":238.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.69409375,"end":240.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.64721875,"end":243.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.48659375000003,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.31346875000003,"end":247.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.86159375000003,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.56971875000002,"end":252.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.81846875000002,"end":255.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.24846875000003,"end":257.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.71221875000003,"end":260.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.37846875,"end":262.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.60596875000005,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.12034375,"end":267.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.10721875,"end":269.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.65971875,"end":276.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.94971875000005,"end":279.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.18534375,"end":281.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.26534375,"end":285.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.36659375,"end":282.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.08346875,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.80909375000005,"end":286.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.17534375,"end":292.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.71096875,"end":294.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.25909375000003,"end":295.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.03534375000004,"end":296.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.36846875000003,"end":297.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.94221875,"end":298.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.00971875000005,"end":299.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.56221875,"end":300.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.48596875000004,"end":308.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.24846875000003,"end":318.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.86721875,"end":319.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.91346875,"end":330.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.22409375,"end":336.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.26096875,"end":338.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.74596875000003,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.07471875000005,"end":350.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.62596875,"end":355.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.75596875,"end":363.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.65346875,"end":366.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.33659375,"end":367.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.04096875000005,"end":372.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.41159375,"end":383.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.71784375000004,"end":389.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.42159375,"end":391.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.76721875000004,"end":407.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.79409375,"end":409.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.24534375,"end":411.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.93284375,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.62034375,"end":416.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.70846875,"end":423.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.64409375,"end":428.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.04409375,"end":439.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.43034375,"end":442.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.61971875,"end":450.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.61034375,"end":452.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.00659375000004,"end":453.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.12034375,"end":459.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.96721875000003,"end":465.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.27471875000003,"end":470.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.03346875000005,"end":473.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.18909375000004,"end":480.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.73721875,"end":477.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.42034375000003,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.52971875000003,"end":482.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.48721875,"end":487.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.22034375000004,"end":493.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.84409375,"end":496.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.42596875000004,"end":498.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.14721875000004,"end":498.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.83909375,"end":502.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.04534375000003,"end":502.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.60221875,"end":502.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.61909375000005,"end":509.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.60534375000003,"end":514.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.27534375,"end":517.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.5703437500001,"end":521.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.12659375,"end":522.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.12221875,"end":528.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.19346875,"end":526.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.3872187500001,"end":530.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.4209687499999,"end":528.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.9522187499999,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.35659375,"end":537.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.11971875,"end":540.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.68909375,"end":540.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.9253437500001,"end":545.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.17346875,"end":547.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.34221875,"end":546.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.2365937500001,"end":550.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.53159375,"end":552.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.24409375,"end":556.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.9778437500001,"end":558.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.3997187500001,"end":559.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.3022187500001,"end":570.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.8615937500001,"end":581.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.2397187500001,"end":590.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.61096875,"end":581.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.90909375,"end":592.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.9340937500001,"end":593.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.45721875,"end":595.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.5834687500001,"end":596.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.1740937500001,"end":597.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.8784687500001,"end":602.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.0422187500001,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.3372187500001,"end":608.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.3915937500001,"end":613.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.69034375,"end":616.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.31846875,"end":630.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.12221875,"end":632.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.51846875,"end":635.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.47159375,"end":638.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.96909375,"end":643.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.48721875,"end":644.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.9765937500001,"end":645.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.2634687500001,"end":646.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.44034375,"end":651.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.5915937500001,"end":657.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.2065937500001,"end":660.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.9740937500001,"end":661.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.1428437500001,"end":664.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.31534375,"end":680.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.76846875,"end":683.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.7890937500001,"end":685.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.6028437500001,"end":689.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.89784375,"end":692.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.01971875,"end":701.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":701.9465937500001,"end":703.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.1572187500001,"end":705.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.67596875,"end":708.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.2409687500001,"end":710.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.86909375,"end":712.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.9153437500001,"end":713.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.7590937500001,"end":727.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.88346875,"end":736.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":735.8484687499999,"end":744.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":744.62346875,"end":746.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":746.8003437500001,"end":750.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.09096875,"end":751.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.6940937500001,"end":752.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":754.29284375,"end":755.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.27159375,"end":756.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.5034687500001,"end":756.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":756.7397187500001,"end":758.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.22034375,"end":761.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.8528437500001,"end":763.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.26596875,"end":769.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.91909375,"end":775.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.24721875,"end":777.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.8503437500001,"end":778.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.08221875,"end":780.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":780.76971875,"end":782.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":782.4909687500001,"end":783.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.0434687500001,"end":786.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.24971875,"end":788.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":788.36346875,"end":789.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.44346875,"end":794.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.0290937500001,"end":797.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":797.9653437500001,"end":820.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.8815937500001,"end":822.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":822.82221875,"end":824.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":825.2353437500001,"end":830.3484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":831.0065937500001,"end":832.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":833.2847187500001,"end":835.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":837.28409375,"end":838.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":838.97159375,"end":845.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.7890937500001,"end":855.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":855.30659375,"end":856.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":856.15034375,"end":860.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":861.3984687500001,"end":862.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.9340937500001,"end":873.8015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":874.4428437500001,"end":879.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":879.5559687500001,"end":882.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":882.72846875,"end":883.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":884.7197187500001,"end":885.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.2553437500001,"end":887.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":888.5165937500001,"end":889.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.57971875,"end":889.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":889.88346875,"end":900.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":900.98721875,"end":902.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.0334687500001,"end":902.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.4509687500001,"end":913.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.8047187500001,"end":908.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":913.0359687500002,"end":924.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":924.61221875,"end":927.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":927.7847187500001,"end":928.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":929.10096875,"end":931.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":932.17221875,"end":937.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":937.69034375,"end":939.4790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":940.2722187500001,"end":941.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":941.8078437500001,"end":944.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":944.42346875,"end":947.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":947.95034375,"end":948.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":948.8953437500002,"end":951.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":951.6965937500001,"end":954.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":954.41346875,"end":958.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":958.90221875,"end":962.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":963.44159375,"end":971.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":971.28846875,"end":973.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":974.3090937500001,"end":975.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":976.38471875,"end":977.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":977.59971875,"end":979.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":979.62471875,"end":980.8228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":981.0590937500001,"end":984.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":984.7040937500001,"end":986.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":986.35784375,"end":987.2859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":988.2478437500001,"end":988.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":989.6147187500001,"end":990.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":992.1965937500001,"end":993.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":994.62659375,"end":1000.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1000.6172187500001,"end":1001.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1001.7309687500001,"end":1002.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1003.3003437500001,"end":1004.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1005.4265937500002,"end":1007.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1008.1940937500001,"end":1009.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1010.37096875,"end":1011.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1012.4297187500001,"end":1013.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1012.4634687500002,"end":1013.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1016.7665937500001,"end":1017.6609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1018.1840937500001,"end":1026.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1024.9509687500001,"end":1025.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1026.19971875,"end":1027.2290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1028.71409375,"end":1030.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1030.80659375,"end":1032.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1032.93284375,"end":1034.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1035.31221875,"end":1037.9278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1038.53534375,"end":1040.8640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1041.33659375,"end":1045.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1045.7915937500002,"end":1047.4959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1047.83346875,"end":1050.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1050.2972187500002,"end":1052.2547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1052.76096875,"end":1055.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1055.96721875,"end":1056.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1056.82784375,"end":1058.0259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1058.0259687500002,"end":1058.4647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1058.97096875,"end":1064.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1064.45534375,"end":1065.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1065.26534375,"end":1066.8853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1066.22721875,"end":1068.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1069.09596875,"end":1073.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1073.6353437500002,"end":1074.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1075.5759687500001,"end":1077.0440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1075.6265937500002,"end":1075.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1079.4403437500002,"end":1079.6934687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.894,"end":39.307,"text":"台主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長座委員好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的簡班休息啊我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓"},{"start":41.228,"end":62.897,"text":"這個肉圓的頭家 已經做了幾十年了之前有段時間 我就看一個年輕人家他說 阿傑桑 我們好生啊 怎麼會在這裡他就聽說 現在在找頭路啦 現在不是沒事來我倒卡手啦我說很好很好啊 有時候要倒介紹嗎 好啊 委員 你有什麼介紹的空間 很歡迎的過一陣子呢 就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦"},{"start":63.516,"end":80.005,"text":"啊 你老闆勒 工廠吃陶螺啊 不錯啊但是呢 偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢 都沒有看到他兒子啊我說 欸 你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔 現在工廠喔 生意很好喔在加班喔 加班賺點東西"},{"start":81.685,"end":105.255,"text":"過一陣子拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了結果現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了我說你老闆現在怎麼會有時間看到他他待會沒來跟他打招呼"},{"start":106.806,"end":127.094,"text":"他說沒辦法啦 現在沒加班 要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去 他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼 今天工廠休息 但是呢前天晚上呢 人家倒上火 上家屬我請教一下喔 這種小家庭 他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候 晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎 補貼家用"},{"start":131.195,"end":149.293,"text":"這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好 現在問題來啦問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找"},{"start":150.467,"end":173.911,"text":"維持生計 現在的工廠說不用五天啦 三天啦要給你兩天 要給你兩天是怎樣在家裡敷豆芽 還是幫忙做家事 你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作 減一下因為要給你兩天嘛 在家裡沒事情要賺錢 可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎"},{"start":175.3,"end":187.573,"text":"呃 當然現在是可以的 現在是可以的嘛好 那換成你是老闆 我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦啊 你工廠喔 有請外勞嗎 他說有啊 有請外勞啊啊 現在咧 現在 啊 現在就 頂端的酒啊 我們請南輝喔 啊 就先給"},{"start":196.16,"end":220.5,"text":"先給外國人休息 為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他做的地方我南非部分 我就叫外國人先休息你外國人休息都做什麼真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河 有在欠人的對不對做農的 做稀土的 他去幫忙這樣可以嗎"},{"start":224.483,"end":249.427,"text":"這樣可以嗎不然你要跟台灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個台灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息都是大家不是很樂意見到的狀況如果你是老闆 台灣老闆你會怎麼做"},{"start":253.005,"end":279.315,"text":"可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊 但是我覺得這個我們整個人看到像老闆這麼大心對不對 他們本來顧小蘭花嘛現在蘭花受窮 經常被人照顧嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛 要多了就給他給一些時間 要讓他出面討賣反正他現在能夠做工廠 做事情 做事頭 有辦法修理嘛好 現在問了請問一下 您說解萬秀一七千多人 有沒有報案 他說"},{"start":282.662,"end":308.024,"text":"現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就說問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看"},{"start":309.501,"end":336.607,"text":"現在我們現在啊 農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了 農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢 但是台灣人喔 你如果說過去喔我們中小企業 中小工廠啊 你如果說出來有正產的喔你工廠檢測的事情 你會回去出來什麼 倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊 你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活 他不會說啊 做不來啦"},{"start":337.367,"end":362.828,"text":"所以誰會做 移工在做啦 好 往下看所以我們那時候呢 說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在 我就死了嘛 我就去找房子但是我有些效果 我來幫忙做出來的工序我們都有種產的 我來看一些掛紅來啦 種一些事情那這種情況下 很普遍 我們整個有種叫做茅頭啦"},{"start":364.27,"end":380.611,"text":"碼頭就是什麼 公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌 很多在旁財 你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信 有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁 都是碼頭去救他 他有固定的卡啦"},{"start":381.232,"end":406.853,"text":"現在什麼人中破災 要去賺幾兆 賺50兆 賺30兆他就夠電的卡銷 他會去繳那樣就知道了 往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就是說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下"},{"start":410.29,"end":439.289,"text":"有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好 那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好 請告訴我 具體來講"},{"start":441.482,"end":458.064,"text":"依法才能開放本國的勞工 沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查 上教室塞車 上會 可以嗎啊 依工來不能稱請那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議 哪些違法 請告訴我"},{"start":462.82,"end":486.929,"text":"蘇長 趕快 你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是 報告委員 基本上移工的開放 當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以 有哪些風險 哪些爭議目前就無法有明定 就是移工只能由單一雇主單一雇主 法律規定嘛 對不對是的 好 那你告訴我 法律規定之外有哪些爭議 有哪些違法先不講違法 哪些爭議 哪些失誤的問題"},{"start":489.301,"end":508.878,"text":"除了法律的規定之外 有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的 你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明 因為當時義工政策開放的設計我不是問你當時 我問你現在啦是 他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以說 我剛剛就講了嘛 陶傑公就是不影響國人就業所以我要減班休息 外勞先給他休息嘛"},{"start":509.699,"end":537.449,"text":"啊 移工休息了 那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工廠 流血滾的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊 要讓他們倒卡笑一下啊 可以嗎這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這個就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛 我說哪些爭議啦有哪些失誤的困難啦 除了你剛剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙 影響到誰的就業"},{"start":539.178,"end":552.132,"text":"影響到誰的就業 你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個 幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎"},{"start":553.308,"end":569.838,"text":"我們現在對農業移工其實上是開放的是開放我知道好了 告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上喔往下看 來"},{"start":571.219,"end":597.031,"text":"現在呢 農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚 他就搶了他說 舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁的前提之下他提出了這個案子他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛"},{"start":597.951,"end":602.117,"text":"但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看"},{"start":603.086,"end":632.536,"text":"因為以前是這樣雇傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有它什麼有它的間歇性有它的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊 收不到工啦紅萊收完工都贏了啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭蝴蝶啦所以我就要怎樣 往下看"},{"start":633.581,"end":657.208,"text":"再往下看 往回往回往回看 再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上好 這個情況就是這樣子農業有它的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度"},{"start":658.268,"end":685.295,"text":"因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢 那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼 遊牧民族哪裡在採茶葉 我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛 我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞 工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎"},{"start":687.662,"end":710.561,"text":"我如果說大工手啦 吃土雞睡土雞啦包大隻啦 對吧 有速食嘛但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工 我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡 整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下 那為什麼移工要做這個事"},{"start":712.049,"end":727.006,"text":"為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救福法的原本管制框架啦至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分"},{"start":728.287,"end":752.266,"text":"我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間 是那但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一雇主的這個框架 是的所以我就說整個問題要如在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啊他要賺錢 他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎"},{"start":754.349,"end":778.004,"text":"一天多少錢嗎 其實蠻多的兩千去調啦三千的也有啦 看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊 它有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工 我們有在漆鼻的 去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後 你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後 七點"},{"start":779.348,"end":787.646,"text":"農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝8點去上工做到了5點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢"},{"start":789.6,"end":817.895,"text":"那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係"},{"start":818.795,"end":840.488,"text":"他不用逃逸 他不用失聯 為什麼 因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了 他就不會長而且呢 這個老公來講 一樣回去怎麼樣 工廠包大隻工廠包吃住 那這個工廠吃住的時候誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛 我好像說把你的工請來我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠 我會貼你嗎 我當然也貼你"},{"start":845.894,"end":860.154,"text":"所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸 不會失聯 往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣"},{"start":861.462,"end":884.857,"text":"有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務啊 務農的外移工啊 安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠"},{"start":888.931,"end":902.271,"text":"職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以"},{"start":903.479,"end":931.101,"text":"那個委員 這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦對 因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個未還我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是只有講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道"},{"start":932.219,"end":948.238,"text":"就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有"},{"start":948.973,"end":962.45,"text":"可是對我們農業很大的幫忙所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住"},{"start":963.499,"end":990.712,"text":"但是這些移工竟然搶你可能 美女就恢復了啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我會把它遣散 我不會嘛我希望這些移工的 繼續在我的工廠欸 申請移工不簡單欸那既然這樣子 有人計票出兵 有欠工的他去幫倒卡車 多少兩三千賺一下對不對 都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠 能夠好管理有什麼不好 署長請告訴我什麼不好"},{"start":992.247,"end":1013.198,"text":"老闆署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請老闆署回答請老闆署回答"},{"start":1018.56,"end":1033.956,"text":"是 鮑委員 我們有一程序成合那是不是 有沒有給部長看過嗎可能 我要回去看一下有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案"},{"start":1035.479,"end":1056.389,"text":"講了一些空空的問題 什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以"},{"start":1056.929,"end":1075.821,"text":"部長回去研究一下可不可以我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":333,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。好像我是第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教，我想大家談了很多的減班休息，我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察，我常常去吃一家肉圓，這個肉圓的老闆已經做幾十年了，之前有一段時間，我就看到一個年輕人，我問年輕人是誰，他回答是他的兒子，我又問他怎麼在這裡，他回答他兒子退伍了，正在找工作，暫時沒有事情，所以到他這邊幫忙，我說很好，詢問他是否需要幫忙介紹，他回答：好啊！委員如果要幫我們介紹工作，很歡迎啊！過一陣子就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙了，詢問他兒子的狀況，原來是到工廠工作了，不錯啊！但是偶爾我晚一點去，他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子，後來一段時間都沒有看到他兒子，我問老闆怎麼都沒看到他兒子？他說現在工廠生意很好，在加班，加班賺錢比較重要。又過一陣子，拿個帖子給我，娶媳婦了，後來是他媳婦在幫忙做小攤吃的生意。但是現在有一個情況出現了，結果現在因為減班休息，他沒有加班了，可是沒有加班，我說現在怎麼有時候有看到他兒子，但是他沒有來幫忙？他說沒辦法，現在沒加班，要再到外面去賺錢，有時候我早上去，他兒子睡眼惺忪出來，為什麼？因為今天工廠休息，但是前天晚上他幫人家送貨、送瓦斯。我請教一下，這種小家庭，他這種員工，當工廠休息的時候，晚上去幫人家送瓦斯，這樣可以嗎？補貼家用。"],["洪部長申翰：這其實就是一些兼職的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兼職的狀況嘛！好，現在問題來了，問題是當他工廠減班休息，他沒有班可以加班的時候，他去幫忙送貨，但是現在減班會減到什麼程度？本來只是生產訂單變少，不用加班，但他另外要工作維持生計，現在工廠說不用5天了，只要3天了，多了兩天，多兩天是怎樣？在家裡孵豆芽，還是幫忙做家事，你覺得他要怎麼辦？他可不可以去找一個白天的工作做一下，因為多了兩天，在家又沒事，要賺錢嘛，可以嗎？可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然現在是可以的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是可以的嘛！好，那換成你是老闆，我也問過工廠的老闆說：你們工廠有請外勞嗎？他說：有啊，有請外勞。現在呢？現在訂單比較少，我們是種蘭花的，就先讓外勞休息。我問：為什麼？他說：我先要照顧自己人，要讓臺灣人繼續上班，現在如果訂單比較少，蘭花的部分，我就叫外勞先休息。我問：外勞休息時都在做什麼？他說：你真的要知道嗎？我們鄉下隔壁鄰居等等有缺人的，做農的、做工作的，他就去幫忙。這樣可以嗎？不然你要叫臺灣老闆讓他們減班休息，讓外勞繼續做，然後臺灣勞工去休息、去外面兼差嗎？哪一種比較好？你覺得站在老闆的立場，哪一種比較善待員工？"],["洪部長申翰：當然減班休息不是大家很樂意遇到的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊！如果你是臺灣老闆，你會怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：可能不同的工廠會有不同的作法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊，但是我覺得我們鄉下人看到這種老闆會覺得很貼心，他們是本來外銷蘭花的，現在蘭花受到衝擊，訂單變少了，他想要臺灣人繼續做，外勞就讓他多一些時間去幫街坊鄰居做事，讓他有一些收入。好，現在我要問了，你說減班休息七千多人，當中有沒有包含移工？"],["洪部長申翰：現在總體的數字是8,505人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有包括移工？"],["洪部長申翰：這裡面有包括移工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有包括移工嘛！移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧，移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：移工完全不行，那問題就來了，所以臺灣老闆就說讓移工自謀生路，什麼方式？我們現在農業很缺勞工，我上次已經講過了，農業缺工是常態，過去農業部也申請過農業移工，但是臺灣人而言，像過去的中小企業、中小工廠，如果家裡有種田的，當工廠事情變少時，他就會回家去幫忙。但是現在臺灣的勞工，你叫他工廠休息時去幫忙農活，坦白說真的做不來啦！所以誰會做？移工在做啦！","所以我們那時候說，原來的全職轉廠和異地兼差，如果現在我失業了，我就去找工作；但如果我是休息，我就去幫忙做家裡的工作，我家有種田的，我就幫忙收成鳳梨或是種一些東西，這種情況很普遍，我們鄉下有一種人叫做「貿頭」，「貿頭」是什麼？就是工頭，「貿頭」在做什麼工作？有時候我們辦桌的時候，有很多端菜的人，你知不知道端菜？端菜不可能是全職，因為辦桌是有一陣沒一陣，所以端菜都是「貿頭」去叫的，他有固定的樁腳，現在總舖師要在哪裡辦幾桌，辦58桌、辦38桌，他就有固定的樁腳可以去招。","所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子？我們災後的農業還是繼續缺工，而工廠裡面的廠工有工作的需求，既然有需求、有方法，我們就來執行，所以農業部就提出了一個「製造業移工支援農業兼職運用架構」，請問勞動部有沒有看過這份？"],["洪部長申翰：我還沒看到這份。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒看到這份？我8月25日在院會提出質詢，那時候農業部已經幫我擬了這個辦法，我今天提供給您，因為在你們還沒有看過這辦法之前，勞動部給我一個回復，因為我是8月25日提出來的，勞動部昨天馬上就告訴我：「現行依法未開放移工跨業別支援」、「且有……等多項法律適用之實務問題，易衍生爭議與違法風險」。好，請告訴我，具體來講，依法才能開放，本國勞工沒工作可以做，他下班之後去兼差、去送瓦斯、去開車送貨，可以嘛？但移工來不能申請，請告訴我有哪些適用的問題？有哪些爭議、哪些違法？請告訴我。署長，趕快！你們的答復可能部長還沒有看過。"],["黃署長齡玉：報告委員，基本上移工的開放，當時候的移工政策是希望……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你告訴我哪些法律不可以？有哪些風險、哪些爭議？"],["黃署長齡玉：目前就服法有明定，移工只能有單一雇主，他沒有辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：法律規定要單一雇主嘛，對不對？"],["黃署長齡玉：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你告訴我，除法律規定之外，有哪些爭議、有哪些違法？先不講違法，有哪些爭議、哪些實務的問題？除了法律的規定之外，有沒有遇到什麼實際的狀況是沒辦法解決的，你能不能告訴我幾樣？"],["黃署長齡玉：跟委員說明，因為當時移工政策開放的設計……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是問你當時，我是問你現在啦！"],["黃署長齡玉：是，它的設計是不能影響國人就業機會，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我剛剛就講了嘛，老闆說，就是為了不影響國人就業，所以我減班休息，先讓外勞休息嘛！移工休息了，他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法？事實上就存在了嘛！現在很多工廠休息的移工，旁邊的人都搶著要，都希望他可以來幫忙一下，這可不可以？"],["黃署長齡玉：我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作，這是為了要確保國人的就業權益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你還是老話嘛！我說有哪些爭議、有哪些實務的困難？除了你剛剛講的那些之外，他去幫忙農忙，影響到誰的就業？你告訴我影響到誰的就業？現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的？你們告訴我幾個。"],["黃署長齡玉：委員，是這樣子……"],["鍾委員佳濱：幫忙農活有影響到本國勞工的就業嗎？"],["黃署長齡玉：我們現在對農業移工其實是開放的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道是開放……"],["黃署長齡玉：只是有農業移工，也有外展移工……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！我告訴你為什麼有問題。這是非常態減班，不是等於全面開放移工跨業別，我只有說幫忙做農活，沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上。現在農業部提出架構的時候，他也很清楚，他就講了，以就服法等相關勞動法規鬆綁前提之下，他提出了這個案子，他也知道你們的就服法有規定，但是你看，現在「外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準」當中規定有外展農務工作嘛！所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛！"],["黃署長齡玉：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是開放嘛！但是為什麼農業的移工不好做？因為以前是這樣的僱用關係，譬如說由農會請了移工，他接受調派到有需要的農戶，這個是核可的。但是因為農業有間歇性、有區域性，當我們這區在收成鳳梨時，大家也都在收成鳳梨，搶不到工啦！等鳳梨收成了以後，工都很閒啦！所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼？我不可能請一年365天，每天都有工作給他做，所以我就要怎樣？像這個情況就是這樣子，農業有零工性、季節性、小規模、地點分散的特性，所以農會請來的農業移工，這個外展的服務變成要在跨區域去調度，因為我們的農作收成是輪區的，所以那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後，他們就變成游牧民族，南投在採茶葉，我就到南投；哪裡在幹嘛，我就在幹嘛，這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工。工廠移工失聯之後，他們很多就進入這樣的市場，但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎？如果他們在工廠，是吃老闆的、睡老闆的，不但含吃，還有宿舍；但是他一旦成為游牧民族，他這樣的移工變成要躲躲藏藏，而且住工寮、住哪裡，整批、整批的暗中移動，整個生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定。請問部長，為什麼移工要做這個事？為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我自己認為這裡面主要是就服法的原本管制框架，至於剛剛講到相關的爭議或者是實務上面的部分，我認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間，但是主要現在還是在就服法的單一雇主的框架裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以我就說整個問題就在勞動部，你們不要不食人間煙火，我剛剛講的那些移工，他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活？因為他要賺錢，他要多賺點錢嘛！你知道現在移工在外面做農活，一天是多少錢嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實滿多的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩千起跳，三千的也有，看什麼工作啦！你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點？可以多掙錢啊，他有時候一次做兩份，我跟你講一個情況，5點天還沒亮，有在養鱉的去挖鱉的卵，因為鱉產卵了之後，你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來，5點多弄完之後，7點農家給他吃點早餐，他回去工廠換個服裝，8點去上工，做到了5點又到另外一家去幫忙，他為了什麼？賺錢。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我直接回答，我自己覺得在剛才委員提到的案例裡面，讓我們再思考一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你，農業部都幫你想好了，第一，它強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約，這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠，它減班休息的移工要同意後，他才能給農戶來使用，農戶和移工有這樣的勞僱關係，原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係，他不用逃逸、他不用失聯，為什麼？因為他一樣有賺到錢，他如果今天減班休息太久了，他就不待了，而且對這個勞工來講，一樣回去工廠包吃住，工廠包吃住！而工廠的吃住是誰會補給他錢？他會補給他錢嘛！如果我把你的工人請來我這裡做3天、5天，他回去睡你的工廠，我會補貼你嗎？我當然會補貼你，所以這個時候原雇主加農業雇主對這個移工來講，反而是安定他的情況，不會逃逸、不會失聯，所以農業部的新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣？就是維持一個原來工廠雇主的勞僱關係。還有農業部很貼心，它說這個時候幫這些務農的移工投保農業職業災害保險，為什麼？因為原來我們工廠的老闆有幫他保勞保，對不對？可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活，萬一出了事，我們的職災賠不賠？職災賠不賠？不賠嘛！對不對？所以既然職災不賠，我們就要求農業部門，既然是種農活，就幫你加入農業職災保險，可以嗎？趕快回答一下可不可以？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦，因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分，我們要再檢視一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我今天非常感謝衛環主席的允許，我在院會沒辦法講得這麼深入，今天我就是要講給大家聽，不是只有講給勞動部聽，可能在我們那個地方，大家都知道我講的實況，就是誰不知道？就是勞動部不知道、就是勞發署不知道，就是不曉得目前……你們不要說矇著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工、工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去，他在靠什麼維生？就是我們農業缺乏的移工，這些移工有沒有搶了我們臺灣勞工的工作？沒有，可是對我們農業有很大的幫忙，所以我在這裡也不是說要常態化，因為我們現在講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息，我們希望臺灣人的工作由老闆幫他優先保住，但是這些移工既然請了，可能明年就恢復了，我們當然希望訂單趕快回來啊，我會不會把他遣散？我不會嘛！我希望這些移工繼續在我的工廠。申請移工不簡單，既然這樣子，隔壁鄰居有缺工的，他去幫忙，多少賺個兩、三千，對不對？還有加保險，回來就住工廠方便管理，有什麼不好？署長請告訴我有什麼不好？勞發署署長請說，你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見，我昨天才收到，我還沒有找部長理論啦，我現在問署長，你們剛剛回答我那部分，昨天10月8號才回答這些書面答復，你們有給部長看過嗎？請勞發署回答、請勞發署回答。"],["黃署長齡玉：是，報告委員，我們有依程序陳核，是不是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有給部長看過嗎？"],["黃署長齡玉：可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有？"],["黃署長齡玉：我要回去看一下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有給部長看過？不要陷部長於不義，這個事情我跟部長、次長都溝通過，你們給這種答案，講了一些空泛的問題，什麼爭議、什麼實務？就是就服法有這樣的規定，所以農業部也說在法令沒有鬆綁之前，只能走這樣的架構，我們有說這是特別條例當中，特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下，讓這個部分適度的納入規範？可不可以？部長，回去研究一下可不可以。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們回去再把相關法令法規的適法性，我們再檢視一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月內。"],["洪部長申翰：再給委員一個答案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了，但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在，你們還拿不出辦法，部長就要負責了，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：我們來檢視一下，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員發言。的確我們中南部尤其是南投，還有在梨山農業季的時候，非常多這樣相關的問題。","再來請林淑芬委員發言。宣告：待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62a286e5e0ba497eb2819c05f3ca7f3b919ebc85139e6d204fbc5f279a864bc0545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:08:49 - 10:19:05","影片長度":"00:10:16","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:08:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:19:05+08:00","duration":616,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.92409375,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.86346875,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.99846875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.04909375,"end":19.133468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.133468750000002,"end":19.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.35284375,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.58909375,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.77471875,"end":128.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.66909375,"end":138.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.92909375000002,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.23096875000002,"end":186.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.36471875,"end":186.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.53346875000003,"end":390.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.38284375,"end":205.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.67034375000003,"end":390.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.07534375,"end":444.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.88971875000004,"end":450.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.32784375000006,"end":449.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.66096875000005,"end":535.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.79534375,"end":538.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.0690937500001,"end":554.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.8303437500001,"end":555.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.15096875,"end":556.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.01971875,"end":578.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.52284375,"end":589.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.94721875,"end":612.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.54284375,"end":615.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.65221875,"end":615.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.1922187499999,"end":615.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.2765937500001,"end":615.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.37784375,"end":616.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.2890937500001,"end":616.5759687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.959,"end":13.497,"text":"好 謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長"},{"start":20.889,"end":41.385,"text":"今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善"},{"start":42.185,"end":69.194,"text":"那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號報告媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位然後等等的"},{"start":69.574,"end":92.018,"text":"那以製造業佔9成5比較多那減班的休息的產業非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點爭緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題"},{"start":94.799,"end":110.108,"text":"所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部"},{"start":110.228,"end":137.84,"text":"經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟王遠說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分"},{"start":138.993,"end":165.883,"text":"那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王委員剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施"},{"start":166.503,"end":185.324,"text":"他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊"},{"start":186.645,"end":205.938,"text":"是 我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力"},{"start":206.698,"end":235.918,"text":"那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中"},{"start":236.758,"end":250.287,"text":"可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷崖式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也"},{"start":252.208,"end":267.234,"text":"做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整"},{"start":268.975,"end":287.623,"text":"這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣好處就是可以控制更多"},{"start":289.344,"end":310.899,"text":"機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來"},{"start":312.36,"end":327.706,"text":"進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定"},{"start":328.326,"end":352.305,"text":"老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點一個就是建立中高齡這個勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整"},{"start":352.805,"end":372.402,"text":"那第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的這個機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢那另外就是適行韓信退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個"},{"start":374.244,"end":389.584,"text":"三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考"},{"start":390.589,"end":402.687,"text":"好 那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視植物在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會需要在這個職場上面"},{"start":406.112,"end":429.041,"text":"跟他之間有些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發展署在那植物在設計部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物在設計做得更到位這是第一個第二個是委員剛才其實講到這幾個建議我想我自己都其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來"},{"start":429.981,"end":449.682,"text":"對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟演繹這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估的報告"},{"start":450.723,"end":467.674,"text":"那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也瞭解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分"},{"start":468.362,"end":484.637,"text":"就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等"},{"start":485.237,"end":499.173,"text":"所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況"},{"start":500.394,"end":518.249,"text":"所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期追蹤讓我們可以掌握到職場尤其是對一些"},{"start":519.55,"end":537.61,"text":"我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職業生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響那這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好 那個跟委員說明"},{"start":539.384,"end":555.856,"text":"其實多元培育就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計"},{"start":558.083,"end":577.61,"text":"比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會上工的人次來作為思考那我們也現在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在"},{"start":578.85,"end":598.802,"text":"當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長"},{"start":601.363,"end":615.323,"text":"那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓它一些現在更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好 那就大家一起努力好 謝謝謝謝副部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時8分）謝謝主席，還是請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。今天要針對三個問題來跟部長討論，第一是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會支援的部分，第二個部分是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度，第三是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善。其中減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會支援就是今天最重要的主題，從今天早上部長的口頭報告和書面報告裡面，我們都看得非常清楚，此外，根據媒體報導，10月1日勞動部公布最新減班休息人數達到8,505人，其中製造業占9成5，這是比較多的；雖然增幅似乎有趨緩的現象，但是減班休息的產業非常集中且持續上升。受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致，顯示出口導向產業仍處於壓力期，這不是單純勞動部的責任，而是整體經濟、產業競爭力的問題。","剛剛部長好像說你們也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論，請問在這個過程裡面，有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施？包括財政部、經濟部等等的。因為我們很擔心，如果只聚焦在補貼、訓練，而缺少產業端支援的話，是不是會在根本改善當中少了這一塊？不知道部長的想法為何？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，我們勞動部的角色和本職主要是協助勞工，針對企業在經營端的協助，比方說企業的創新、融資等等，是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持。王委員剛剛講到受衝擊的產業清單，我們有關減班休息的數據都是公開的，我們也常常跟經濟部、財政部交流，包括交換彼此的資訊，因為確實有很多支持的措施不一定能夠一個、一個單一地拿出來看，而是要從多重角度甚至互相支援去看。我們跟經濟部、財政部其實一直都保持訊息互通，也包括衝擊面的互通，所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊，我們也會提供給經濟部一些資訊。"],["王委員正旭：是，我相信如果能夠跨部會互相支援的話，我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解，我想對我們的勞工朋友來講，透明的這些資訊應該是會非常受歡迎的，這部分就請部長持續來努力。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員正旭：第二部分就是有關於超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題，我們先看一個數據，我們也知道從100年到113年，65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中，我們在100年的時候是7.93%，到了113年將近10%，所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中，可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上的勞參率，其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷檔式的下降，這部分我們當然非常擔心。我們在10月1日也做了一個公聽會，就是因應超高齡社會的政策公聽會，我們在過程裡面，很多專家學者都提出相關的建議，希望能夠朝著更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整。這個部分主要就是我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的作法，而是在60到65歲，或者是在63歲到67歲之間，能不能有一個過渡式退休的可能性？這樣的好處就是可以空出更多機會讓年輕人來共同參與，也可以是一個適應性的，能夠處理工作經驗的傳承。我們也了解這種模式的退休方式，可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合，比如像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等，他可以透過這種傳承式的、漸進式的退休模式來進行，這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助。","我們也看到一份報告，這份報告也許部長也有參考過，就是在今年的7月份，國衛院也出了一個論壇的報告《法定老年及退休年齡之研討》，這裡面有一些短、中期的建議，他們也希望透過這個建議，部裡面是不是能夠來評估它的可行性？包括重要的三點，一個就是建立中高齡勞工就業跟職安評估系統，把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整；第二個部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計機制，剛剛月琴委員也有提到這部分的質詢；另外就是試行彈性退休制度，避免突然斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊。這三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法，或者是未來在處理的時候，有哪一些可以再跟部裡面共同來研議的地方？可不可以請部長也在兩個月提供相關的書面報告給我們做參考？"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟委員說明，其實我們發展署現在是非常非常重視職務再設計，因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工要進入到職場，他會希望、他會需要在這個職場上面跟他之間有些相對應的磨合跟調整，有些部分會需要重新再做設計，所以接下來我想發展署針對職務再設計的部分，也會做一些更細緻的資源配置，希望能夠把職務再設計做得更到位，這是第一個。第二個是委員剛才講到的這幾個建議，我想我自己其實都是滿贊同的，所以我也願意來研議，對於比方像中高齡就業跟職安評估的系統，的確可能中高齡的勞工在職業安全上面或就業上面，他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況，這些相關的評估，我覺得我們願意來做思考跟研議。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長，部裡面在兩個月給我們一個書面評估報告。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：最後一項，就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討，因為我們從監察院的調查報告也了解到多元培力就業計畫缺乏長期的追蹤，其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分，就是有一些首次進入職場，很有可能他進職場的時候，會變成是一個上工人次指標的一部分，很有可能他很快就又離開，然後又重新進入職場等等。所以在這個部分，監察院的報告也告訴我們，如果僅是用「協助上工人次」來做指標的話，可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況，所以這個比例如果偏低的話，我相信對職場的安定其實是非常不利的。所以是不是也請勞動部來研議針對這一類的計畫，進行以人為單位的長期追蹤？讓我們可以掌握到職場，尤其是對一些勞工朋友，他如果是這樣進出職場，事實上對他職涯生涯不好以外，對人力的穩定性其實也有很不當的影響，這部分也麻煩部長在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告。"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟委員說明，其實多元培力就業計畫的時間很長，它其實已經非常非常多年了，在不同的階段，我覺得它擔負了不同的功能，一開始這個計畫實施的時候，它其實是在失業率很高的時候，所以當初包括KPI的設計，比較多是針對怎麼去解決當下那些失業的問題，所以有很多會以上工的人次來作為思考。我們也正在陸陸續續檢視不管是多元或培力的這個計畫，如果委員去看的話，可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面，我覺得它一個很重要的意義是協助了很多青年返鄉，在當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下，有一份薪資上面或者是經濟上面的支持，現在在青年返鄉支持的意義，我覺得它是更大的，所以我們當然可以來檢討一下這個計畫在KPI的設計上面，能不能納入更多符合當下需求的思考，這部分我們可以來檢討，因為確實這個計畫的時間很長，陸陸續續發展署裡面也持續對這個事情有滿多的一些檢討，我覺得也應該與時俱進，做一些調整，讓它的一些更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就大家一起努力。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席（廖委員偉翔）：謝謝王正旭委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb629089a249dbf0e811119d4e8153da54ef9ebc85139e6d204fce8271213e3fc7bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:25:10 - 10:37:41","影片長度":"00:12:31","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:25:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:37:41+08:00","duration":751,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.856593750000002,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.282218750000002,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.31971875,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.454093750000002,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.17971875,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.78284375,"end":209.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.50034375,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.16909375,"end":265.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.17721875,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.17096875000004,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.16221875,"end":267.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.61346875000004,"end":272.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.89971875000003,"end":278.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.58659375,"end":294.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.74034375,"end":303.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.02159375,"end":331.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.21534375000005,"end":342.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.51346875,"end":362.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.81534375,"end":354.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.82659375000003,"end":362.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.06284375,"end":366.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.91034375000004,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.43034375,"end":472.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.44346875,"end":438.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.03721875,"end":510.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.76971875000004,"end":598.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.21909375,"end":578.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.49471875,"end":603.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.15596875,"end":605.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.7253437500001,"end":612.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.6609687499999,"end":616.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.5928437499999,"end":624.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.1697187500001,"end":630.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.5534687500001,"end":626.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.01721875,"end":650.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.96721875,"end":654.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.73471875,"end":680.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.1672187500001,"end":668.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.2622187500001,"end":685.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":686.26971875,"end":691.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.2478437500001,"end":694.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.71159375,"end":696.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.1459687500001,"end":698.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.2553437500001,"end":700.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.3603437500001,"end":711.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.98846875,"end":704.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.5190937500001,"end":724.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.8290937500001,"end":732.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.6472187500001,"end":730.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.7478437500001,"end":736.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.6965937500001,"end":750.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.2109687500001,"end":741.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.0322187500001,"end":748.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.52159375,"end":748.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.41596875,"end":749.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":751.47471875,"end":752.9765937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.412,"end":14.442,"text":"謝謝我們主席翁昭偉我先請那個考選部我們劉部長請劉部長"},{"start":19.551,"end":38.682,"text":"委員長部長好過去國考是穩定的象徵本期現在看到公務人員的公務人才的流失跟報考的意願低迷根據考選部的統計2023年有16個類科的報考數少於需要錄取的人數"},{"start":39.782,"end":61.296,"text":"甚至有四個類科沒有人報考高普考錄取不足的人數總人數達268人達近年很高的一個紀錄錄取不足的現象尤其集中在技術類科包含建築、土木、機械、水力、電力工程等這都是國家在建設上很重要在公共安全的關鍵崗位"},{"start":62.717,"end":88.044,"text":"那麼政府如果缺乏技術人才那勢必會影響基層的執行力跟公共服務的品質那本席在這個部分尤其是關注原住民族特考那這個現象非常的嚴重像原住民特考的三等土木工程要用26人卻只有10個人報考那麼四等的機械工程更出現了零報考的這個情況那顯示這個制度雖然有保障名額但是卻失"},{"start":89.784,"end":110.941,"text":"缺乏实质跟有效的一个诱因那所以原住民特考本来原意是要让族人进入公部门回馈原乡但是现在却整个有点空放掉了所以在立法院的这个研究报告里面也已经指出希望考选部能够积极跟相关部会来会商研商提高类科"},{"start":112.542,"end":140.821,"text":"類科考選的一個效能那特別是針對我們東部地區的土木人才跟原鄉的STEM相關科系的職缺應該要設計相當的誘因跟培育的基地那例如這個留任的這個加級還有專業加級讓人才願意到原鄉也願意留在原鄉但是我相信這整個體系可能有很大的一個問題那本席在去年也針對有關於STEM人才的培育提出一些問題"},{"start":141.781,"end":168.575,"text":"那麼本席這邊有幾個問題想跟您請教那第一個部分是針對原住民族特考長期報考人數的一個下滑那考選部對原因的一個了解那對策的一個眼影是如何那另外考選部是不是有跟原民會教育部跟工程會相關的部會來協調建立原鄉與偏鄉人才培育的基地讓從基層一直到大學技職教育培養土木水利的專業基層能力"},{"start":170.276,"end":198.213,"text":"甚至還有農林相關的這樣類科第三個部分是對於入取不足的技職類科考選部是不是可以檢討命題的內容入取的門檻來強化教育體系專業體系的一個連結如果國家有急需工程的技術人力卻因為考題偏難或者是不服實務也沒有辦法在原鄉服務導致沒有人入取那是不是也有點浪費"},{"start":199.013,"end":226.969,"text":"那本席知道部長你也曾經擔任過教育部次長那是不是在這個部分有一些想法可以來執行呢給予一些建議好嗎是跟委員報告那這也是我們考選部非常在意的一個議題那就是委員所說其實那一個特別是土木工程其實包含土木電力然後其實也還有經濟跟財稅對還有農民等等考的不足額"},{"start":227.745,"end":246.005,"text":"大概這幾個類客就佔了快九成那這的確是一個必須去因應的問題那我們有跟那個原民會跟教育部已經有跟他們聯繫那有開會討論那最主要是我們根據我們那個原住民族的教育法那是必須要奠定一個"},{"start":246.705,"end":271.87,"text":"每五年要一個教育發展計畫那目前下一年度的教育發展計畫正在訂定中那我們希望能夠透過教育部跟那個園民會把培育園民的公務人才也要列為園民的這個教育這邊一個非常重要的要投資跟發展那尤其是公務體系裡面那幾個經常在缺的類科對園鄉也是非常重要的是的 就如委員所說"},{"start":273.05,"end":277.617,"text":"那特別是我們也有注意到如果我們說在譬如說"},{"start":278.7,"end":304.422,"text":"我們在特考的確土木工程是個普遍嚴重的問題但是特別在原鄉部落這個問題又特別嚴重那我們其實我們有注意到在整個東部其實非常缺乏培育土木工程人才的基地因為東部是原鄉一個很重要的基地所以這個部分如果是那麼匱乏的話我想對東部的長期發展也是不太健康的是的 那就如委員所說"},{"start":305.683,"end":328.429,"text":"但是在這些技術類可能它的基本就是委員所說的還是STAND人才所以我們會希望說是不是我們可以透過教育端還有跟我們原民會來合作可以透過我們在原民的教育體系最好是可以從包含國民教育的階段就開始來把著原民的STAND人才可以成為以後來進入這個"},{"start":332.611,"end":335.918,"text":"體系的一個生力軍那當然是如果更好的話是整個東部"},{"start":336.94,"end":362.225,"text":"也可以在高檔教育出現培育這些技術類科的人才基地所以這個部分是不是可以請你們積極的來跟各部會甚至可以請政委這邊來召開協調相關的這個協調的人才培育的一個長期計畫要不然考試院是最尾端那你們縱使開出的這些名額結果在前端都已經很匱乏的話可能考選部這邊也是有一些困難吧"},{"start":363.236,"end":381.262,"text":"是 就如那個委員所說 那其實我們目前我們卡士願的一萬委員也非常重視這個議題那我們有透過我們一萬委員 然後跟我們教育部那教育部跟園民會其實也很支持我們的構想那我們希望盡快讓這一個可以在明年的園民的這個"},{"start":382.222,"end":400.312,"text":"接下來五年的那個原住民主教育發展計畫裡面列為一個正式的對 因為這個部分本席也非常關心過去在其他委員會針對STEM原名STEM的這個人才的培育已經也提出很多次的這個質詢那我們希望在整個體系能夠連動就像你剛才也講到的"},{"start":400.672,"end":420.719,"text":"基礎的叫國教的這個部分其實也要能夠由大學這邊來一起拉抬那這樣在你們的這個考試類科裡面才不會常常出現不足額就算有的人才呢那回到原鄉的這個比例也不太高所以就線型的制度是不是可以先考量一下這個考題命題的這個內容的監測程度"},{"start":421.339,"end":436.809,"text":"針對原鄉的一個特考的這個部分那另外呢長期來講考試院可以更積極的來跟相關部會針對人才把這個一系列都這個補足那我們就不會有開出這樣子的缺額可是卻也沒有人來考的一個狀況好不好"},{"start":438.37,"end":453.542,"text":"這個部分也請考選部積極的列出一個時程我們這樣子才比較有效度的能夠將原命的人才來補齊很重要就公務體系是國家運轉的一個機制但是如果考不到又補不上"},{"start":453.982,"end":471.934,"text":"留不住那整個體系就會慢慢失能所以請部長盡快的來召開這樣一個協調會議那至少能夠讓我們原鄉的青年看到新的一個希望好 謝謝部長那接下來我很快的跟秘書長這邊我要提醒一件事情"},{"start":473.115,"end":495.264,"text":"那個我們知道在國家考試電子證書部長您請回接下來我就針對這個考試電子證書服務推廣的這個成效的問題來跟您提出一些建議我們根據報告指出考選部開辦的這個國家考試及格證書服務網以來整個使用率有點偏低"},{"start":496.064,"end":502.191,"text":"所以在2023年的報告裡面指出到112年8月底下載電子證書的總次數只有27310次相較於你們核發的32267張證書"},{"start":510.981,"end":528.954,"text":"平均每一張沒有到一次的下載而線上申辦的也只有24.67%也就是說四分之三的考生也是仍然選擇職本申辦我相信你們這樣子一個利益良好可是在執行上是不是有一些沒有達到的一個部分"},{"start":529.654,"end":545.137,"text":"因為在113年8月底下載的次數達到6萬多次但是核發的7萬多張證書相比還是沒有達到1比1的水準所以連續兩年大概都沒有辦法達到1比1所以這個電子證書的推動也是你們轉型的"},{"start":546.379,"end":554.164,"text":"業務很重要的其中之一我們能夠讓節能省碳成為一個未來的方向但是連兩年這樣推廣的不足的情況下是不是在制度設計跟使用者的體驗上有一些差異所以有三個問題就是說考試院是不是能夠檢視操作流程直覺性或介面的友善度這常常是大家公佈你們裡面一個普遍的問題"},{"start":573.977,"end":594.795,"text":"但是有許多機關企業也是仍然要求資本的驗證是不是這中間讓考生會覺得電子版不實用第二個部分你們現在有沒有計畫如何提升普及率最後是考試院是不是要積極的宣導電子證書的法律效力這個數位轉型也才能夠落實秘書長這邊"},{"start":596.616,"end":615.661,"text":"我簡單跟委員說明委員您剛剛所有的建議我們前面都有做我有一個誤解我可能要跟您說明我們的制度是這樣你一定要繳電子證書的錢100塊錢的成本然後它一定會有電子證書但是如果你需要紙本證書你就額外申請"},{"start":616.781,"end":635.874,"text":"我們一直在試圖降低就是宣導說大家用電子證書就好不一定要來申請資本因為資本成本也貴500元可是這中間可能是這個企業跟公部門他們能夠接受的比例比較低吧所以我們這個都有在宣導告訴大家說你只要有電子而且電子證書也方便驗證有些人只能為了留紀念可能"},{"start":636.434,"end":649.37,"text":"基於各種原因他想要覺得考上了很不容易要留一個紙本他不在乎500塊但是我跟您報告現在電子證書就是說你考上了你一定拿到電子證書可是有額外申請紙本證書的比例都在20%以下"},{"start":651.021,"end":666.069,"text":"就是說大家對於電子證書的使用普遍率不高第一個是這樣您講到說為什麼它沒有每一個人都下載因為它不一定需要下載的時候它不會立刻下載我發出去之後它也許真的需要的時候它才會去下載"},{"start":667.369,"end":690.966,"text":"第二個是說他可能有申請資本證書的人他也不會去下載所以這個部分我覺得是看使用者個人的習慣但是我們的成效是展現在說現在所有考生及格者 入取者有申請資本證書的都已經不到20%所以已經一路這樣下降我們觀察今年的趨勢還有稍微降得更低"},{"start":691.426,"end":712.054,"text":"所以你們是從大家申請紙本的這個申請率來看待但是您剛才提到一點就表示八成以上的人都接受只有電子證書了所以其中有一點就是說他如果現在沒有需要他就不會去下載那你們是不是可以從這個下載率看他的一個普遍性我想應該你們可以從這樣一個因素裡面去做一些調查有的時候他不需要下載"},{"start":712.574,"end":735.422,"text":"譬如說我以護理師考試來講護理師考試我們入局者其實他們直接發到衛福部去衛福部給他們職業證書他有了職業證書其實他不用有考試及格證書所以他不用自己去給予這個證書的證明嗎對 他也不需要自己拿去那邊申請他的職業證照他直接從衛福部這邊去檢視就好了對 我們會直接跟衛福部做因為我們希望他迅速拿到證照可以直接去"},{"start":735.782,"end":749.438,"text":"那你們是不是可以針對本席所講的這樣一個對 針對這個部分然後還有針對你們去這個研考的因素中間的一個差距那這個本席要知道這個差距沒有問題好嗎好的 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時25分）謝謝主席翁召委，先請考選部劉部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長孟奇：委員早。"],["林委員倩綺：部長好。過去國考是穩定的象徵，本席現在看到公務人才的流失跟報考的意願低迷，根據考選部的統計，2023年有16個類科的報考數少於需要錄取的人數，甚至有4個類科沒有人報考，高普考錄取不足的總人數達268人，是近年很高的紀錄。錄取不足的現象尤其集中在技術類科，包含建築、土木、機械、水力、電力工程等，這些都是國家在建設上很重要的，是公共安全的關鍵崗位，政府如果缺乏技術人才，勢必會影響基層的執行力跟公共服務的品質。","本席針對這個部分，尤其關注原住民族特考，這個現象非常嚴重。像原住民特考的三等土木工程要用26人，卻只有10個人報考，四等的機械工程更出現了零報考的情況，顯示這個制度雖然有保障名額，但卻缺乏實質跟有效的誘因。原住民特考本來的原意是要讓族人進入公部門回饋原鄉，但是現在卻整個有點空泛掉了。","在立法院的研究報告裡也已指出，希望考選部能夠積極跟相關部會會商，研商提高類科考選的效能，特別是針對東部地區的土木人才，跟原鄉STEM相關科系的職缺，應該要設計相當的誘因跟培育的基地，例如留任的加給，還有專業加給，讓人才願意到原鄉，也願意留在原鄉。","但我相信這整個體系可能有個很大的問題，本席去年也針對STEM人才的培育提出一些問題，本席這邊有幾個問題想跟您請教。第一個部分是針對原住民族特考長期報考人數的下滑，考選部對原因的了解及研擬的對策是如何？另外，考選部是不是有跟原民會、教育部跟工程會等相關部會來協調，建立原鄉與偏鄉人才培育的基地，從基層一直到大學技職教育培養土木、水利的專業基層能力，甚至還有農林相關的類科？第三個部分是對於錄取不足的技職類科，考選部是不是可以檢討命題的內容、錄取的門檻來強化教育體系與專業體系的連結？如果國家急需工程的技術人力，卻因為考題偏難或者是不符實務，也沒有辦法在原鄉服務導致沒有人錄取，那是不是也有點浪費？本席知道部長也曾經擔任過教育部次長，是不是在這個部分有一些想法可以執行呢？給予一些建議好嗎？"],["劉部長孟奇：是，跟委員報告，這也是考選部非常在意的一個議題。就如委員所說，其實特別是土木工程，包含土木、電力，然後還有經建跟財稅……"],["林委員倩綺：還有農林等等。"],["劉部長孟奇：報考的不足額，這幾個類科大概就占了快九成，這的確是一個必須去因應的問題。我們已跟原民會和教育部聯繫也有開會討論，我們最主要是根據原住民族教育法，每5年必須訂定一個教育發展計畫，下一年度的教育發展計畫目前正在訂定中，我們希望能夠透過教育部跟原民會把培育原民的公務人才列為原民教育一個非常重要、要投資跟發展的……"],["林委員倩綺：尤其是在公務體系裡面，那幾個經常在缺人的類科對原鄉也是非常重要的。"],["劉部長孟奇：技術類科是的，就如委員所說。特別是我們也有注意到，譬如在特考上，土木工程的確是個普遍嚴重的問題，但是在原鄉部落這個問題又特別嚴重，其實我們有注意到整個東部非常缺乏培育土木工程人才的基地。"],["林委員倩綺：因為東部是原鄉的一個很重要的基地，所以這個部分如果是那麼匱乏的話，我想對東部的長期發展也是不太健康的。"],["劉部長孟奇：是的，就如委員所說的，這些技術類科基本上還是STEM的人才，所以我們會希望是不是可以透過教育端，還有跟原民會合作，透過我們在原民的教育體系，最好是可以從國民教育的階段就開始拔擢原民的STEM人才，成為以後進入這個體系的生力軍。當然如果更好的話，整個東部也可以在高等教育出現培育這些技術類科人才的基地……"],["林委員倩綺：所以這個部分是不是可以請你們積極地跟各部會，甚至可以請政委這邊來召開協調相關人才培育的長期計畫？要不然考試院是最尾端，你們縱使開出了這些名額，如果在前端都已經很匱乏的話，可能考選部這邊也會有一些困難吧？"],["劉部長孟奇：是，就如委員所說的，其實目前我們考試院的伊萬委員也非常重視這個議題，我們有透過伊萬委員跟教育部聯繫，而教育部跟原民會其實也很支持我們的構想，我們希望這個可以儘快在接下來五年的原住民族教育發展計畫裡面列為一個正式的……"],["林委員倩綺：對，因為這個部分本席也非常關心，過去在其他委員會針對原民STEM的人才培育也曾提出很多次的質詢，我們希望在整個體系能夠連動，就像你剛才也講到，基礎的、國教的這個部分也要由大學這邊來一起拉抬，這樣在這個考試類科裡面才不會常常出現不足額，就算有了人才，回到原鄉的比例也不太高，所以針對原鄉特考的這個部分，就現行制度是不是可以先考量一下考題命題內容的艱澀程度？另外，長期來講，考試院可以更積極地跟相關部會把這一系列的人才都補足，如此就不會有開出這樣子的缺額，可是卻沒有人來考的狀況，好不好？"],["劉部長孟奇：是。"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分也請考選部積極地列出一個時程，這樣子才能夠比較有效度的將原民的人才補齊。公務體系是國家運轉很重要的一個機制，如果考不到，又補不上、留不住，整個體系就會慢慢失能，所以請部長儘快來召開這樣一個協調會議，至少能夠讓我們原鄉的青年看到新的希望，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長孟奇：謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我很快的提醒秘書長一件事情，我要針對考試電子證書服務推廣成效的問題跟您提出一些建議。根據報告指出，考選部開辦國家考試及格證書服務網以來，整個使用率有點偏低，在2023年的報告裡面指出，到112年8月底，下載電子證書的總次數只有2萬7,310次，相較於你們核發的3萬2,267張證書，平均每一張沒有到一次的下載，而線上申辦的占比也只有24.67%，也就是說四分之三的考生仍然是選擇紙本申辦。我相信你們這樣的立意良好，可是在執行上是不是有一些沒有達到的部分？因為在113年8月底，下載的次數達到六萬多次，但是與核發的七萬多張證書相比，還是沒有達到一比一的水準，所以大概連續兩年都沒有辦法達到一比一。","這個電子證書的推動也是你們轉型其中很重要的一項業務，讓節能省碳成為一個未來的方向，但是在連兩年推廣不足的情況下，是不是在制度設計跟使用者的體驗上有一些差異？所以我有三個問題，考試院是不是能夠檢視操作流程的直覺性或介面的友善度，這常常是公部門裡面一個普遍的問題，還有有許多機關、企業也仍然要求紙本的驗證，這中間是不是會讓考生覺得電子版不實用？第二個部分，你們現在有沒有計畫如何提升普及率？最後，考試院是不是要積極地宣導電子證書的法律效力，這個數位轉型也才能夠落實？請秘書長回應。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我簡單跟委員說明，委員您剛剛所有的建議，我們前面都有做，但有一個誤解我可能要跟您說明，我們的制度是這樣，你一定要繳電子證書的錢，是100塊錢的成本，然後一定會有電子證書，但是如果你需要紙本證書，你就額外申請，而我們一直在試圖降低紙本的申請，宣導大家用電子證書就好，不一定要來申請紙本，因為紙本的成本也貴，要500元，所以我們……"],["林委員倩綺：這中間可能是企業跟公部門能夠接受的比例比較低吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：所以我們都有在宣導，而且電子證書也方便驗證，有些人可能是為了留紀念，或是基於各種原因，他覺得考上了很不容易，想要留一個紙本，他不在乎500塊，但是我跟您報告，現在是你考上後你一定會拿到電子證書，可是有額外申請紙本證書的比例都在20%以下。"],["林委員倩綺：就是大家對於電子證書的使用普遍率不高嘍？"],["劉秘書長建忻：第一個，您講到為什麼沒有每一個人都下載？因為他不一定需要下載的時候，他不會立刻下載，我發出去之後，他也許在真的需要的時候才會去下載；第二個，有申請紙本證書的人，他可能也不會去下載。所以這個部分我覺得是看使用者個人的習慣，但是我們的成效是展現在現在所有的及格者、錄取者中，有申請紙本證書的都已經不到20%，所以已經一路下降，我們觀察今年的趨勢還有稍微降得更低。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們是從大家申請紙本的申請率來看待？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，要從這個角度來觀察。"],["林委員倩綺：但是您剛才提到一點……"],["劉秘書長建忻：也就表示八成以上的人都接受只有電子證書了。"],["林委員倩綺：其中有一點是說，他如果現在沒有需要，他就不會去下載，那你們是不是可以從這個下載率看出它的普遍性？我想你們應該可以從這樣一個因素裡面去做一些調查。"],["劉秘書長建忻：有的時候他不需要下載，譬如說我以護理師考試來講，護理師考試的錄取是直接發到衛福部去，衛福部給他們執業證書，他有了執業證書，其實他不用有考試及格證書。"],["林委員倩綺：所以他不用自己去給予這個證書的證明嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，他也不需要自己拿去申請他執業的證照。"],["林委員倩綺：他直接從衛福部去檢視就好了？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，我們會直接跟衛福部做，因為我們希望他迅速拿到證照，可以直接去工作。"],["林委員倩綺：那你們是不是可以針對本席所講的這樣一個……"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對這個數字的落差怎麼解讀我們做一個完整的說明。"],["林委員倩綺：對，針對這個中間的差距是因為什麼因素，本席要知道這個差距的原因，好嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好的，沒有問題。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的發言，也請秘書長之後提供報告給林委員，謝謝。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb625fb83ae893bb1ad2119d4e8153da54ef9ebc85139e6d204f3bca61c2a45653685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:12:29 - 10:25:04","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:12:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:25:04+08:00","duration":755,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.36409375,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8703437500000002,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.99659375,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":7.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.814093750000001,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.05721875,"end":21.715343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.44534375,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.36909375,"end":24.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.63471875,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.75659375,"end":36.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.43034375,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.34659375000001,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.70409375000001,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.73784375000001,"end":95.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.13846875,"end":96.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.25221875000001,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.48409375,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.39534375000001,"end":99.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.23471875000001,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.29596875000001,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.98534375000003,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.80471875,"end":238.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.67284375000003,"end":252.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.69596875000002,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.37096875,"end":256.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.22284375000004,"end":261.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.62721875,"end":261.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.64409375,"end":261.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.26846875,"end":264.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.95596875,"end":265.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.25534375,"end":265.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.27221875000004,"end":268.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.28909375,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.55846875000003,"end":272.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.89971875000003,"end":272.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.49034375,"end":280.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.56096875000003,"end":286.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.32784375,"end":290.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.07846875,"end":294.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.41534375000003,"end":296.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.82409375000003,"end":298.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.21221875000003,"end":300.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.67596875000004,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.85721875,"end":302.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.87409375000004,"end":301.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.05971875,"end":306.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.09346875,"end":302.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.19409375000004,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.90284375000005,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.91534375000003,"end":308.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.08409375,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.02471875000003,"end":312.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.71221875000003,"end":326.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.20971875000004,"end":315.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.07034375,"end":315.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.66034375000004,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.06846875,"end":331.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.27096875,"end":327.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.33409375,"end":332.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.77221875000004,"end":332.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.78909375,"end":333.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.43034375,"end":336.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.82221875000005,"end":431.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.92971875,"end":441.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.08846875,"end":444.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.82221875000005,"end":451.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.20096875,"end":453.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.51284375,"end":454.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.00221875000005,"end":459.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.54221875,"end":454.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.64284375000005,"end":474.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.30284375,"end":474.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.96096875,"end":479.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.50034375,"end":489.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.47346875000005,"end":495.27846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.53159375,"end":510.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.27596875000006,"end":517.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.5365937500001,"end":519.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.16909375,"end":520.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.1984687500001,"end":525.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.6997187500001,"end":533.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.83846875,"end":530.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.7365937500001,"end":542.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.64784375,"end":536.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.5547187500001,"end":536.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.58846875,"end":536.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.24159375,"end":542.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.3259687500001,"end":542.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.3428437499999,"end":542.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.64659375,"end":548.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.14784375,"end":549.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.54846875,"end":555.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.15909375,"end":558.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.6609687499999,"end":560.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.93909375,"end":564.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.20034375,"end":566.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.3559687500001,"end":566.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.3728437500001,"end":568.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.6172187500001,"end":568.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.98846875,"end":569.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.41034375,"end":570.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.40596875,"end":581.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.99971875,"end":578.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.16784375,"end":591.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.5503437500001,"end":599.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.29159375,"end":604.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.42159375,"end":614.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.40346875,"end":618.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.95596875,"end":615.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.6940937500001,"end":616.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.6684687500001,"end":621.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.6472187500001,"end":667.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.0109687500001,"end":753.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.61534375,"end":742.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.2297187500001,"end":754.1240937500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.019,"end":5.96,"text":"好 接下來請王宏威委員質詢好 謝謝主席我請那個全旭部長好 請施部長部長早部長早"},{"start":24.731,"end":47.768,"text":"在你們的報告裡面有針對我們目前以及針對我們的公務人員的一些修法還有改進也感謝包含考試院的願意配合至少我個人在上個會期我大概主要是兩個一個就是我們公務人員考積法"},{"start":48.608,"end":60.612,"text":"對 就是把霸凌 還有酒駕 性騷等等把它列入我們公務人員考機法那有這個法源最嚴重的我們可以計兩大過於免職那麼可以建構一個更優良的更好的一個公務人員的一個就業環境"},{"start":68.914,"end":93.195,"text":"另外一个就是有关于放宽商调权的问题我们在这边也谢谢我们全序部有从善如流我觉得这速度也算是快从我们关心到最后的改进所以在这一点就是说你们在之前的你们的报告里面的一些相关的内容我想就是予以感谢以及肯定"},{"start":94.175,"end":113.953,"text":"謝謝委員的支持另外就是要跟部長考試院這邊來討論的像現在我們的財政委員會正在召開聯席會議就是針對特別預算在做審查"},{"start":114.694,"end":118.415,"text":"那在這一次呢這個我們的特別條例裡面呢有撥補勞保基金撥補100億那麼在明年度的預算裡面勞保基金的撥補呢也把它提高到就是跟那個114年一樣把它變成1200億也就是說這幾年鑑於勞保基金的這個它的潛在性的負債那麼政府呢"},{"start":142.262,"end":167.787,"text":"都撥補一定的金額到勞保基金裡面好那可是另外一部分除了勞保基金之外同樣的我們退府基金在你們報告裡面也有特別提到我們也有潛藏性的一個債務也有高達就是未來呢就是要提撥的就是也有高達將近三兆之多所以"},{"start":168.827,"end":175.852,"text":"對我們現職的公教人員來說他們也希望退府基金的財務能夠健全這個對他們未來 因為他們很害怕等到有一天他退休的時候我們退府基金會不會因為財務的問題讓他們影響他們的權益所以在這段時間裡面譬如說我們的教師公會教師團體 全教總"},{"start":196.104,"end":209.721,"text":"就一直在爭取要讓我們的公教的退伏基金能夠讓政府能夠根據這個精算能夠加速的去做撥補"},{"start":211.072,"end":238.13,"text":"可是到目前為止以今年度來講我們政府編列還是194億他是以30年但是呢我們很多的公教人員或者是團體還是希望能夠依照這個精算的10年精算的撥補來撥補退府基金那我想請問一下明年度我們的預算是多少"},{"start":240.004,"end":266.478,"text":"公教加起來我們是根據10我們都是用10年撥補的一個方式去提出概算然後明年應該如果是明年應該是200公務人員282公務人員提出282那因為教育人員是歸教育部編列的所以你公務人員是你公務人員是282"},{"start":270.125,"end":285.758,"text":"不是公教退輔基金耶就是我們的公務人員退輔基金我們編的概算數是282億那教育人員是198億那行政院呢因為這是我們編的編列數但行政院並沒有合這麼多"},{"start":287.422,"end":299.996,"text":"我就問你預算數法定預算數不是法定預算 行政院的預算編列數是126公務人員 教育人員是92所以加起來是218218比今年194億多一點點"},{"start":306.994,"end":322.922,"text":"多的不多嘛 其實基本上他還是以20年嘛你剛講以10年我剛還想說我幫他們高興一下因為他們在爭取就是希望以10年來撥補嘛可是每次我們政府都是以20年來撥補所以我剛講說預算數是多少"},{"start":327.29,"end":331.093,"text":"所以你218億仍然其實是依照20年所以這個部分就是相關就是說勞保基金我們加速撥補讓他的財務能夠更健全一點當然勞保基金他的那個前端性的債務負債也很可觀"},{"start":348.946,"end":363.162,"text":"所以在這個部分是不是我要特別講的就是現在的公教人員希望也能夠加速撥補公教的退府基金所以這一個部分"},{"start":363.763,"end":381.878,"text":"可是就是說這個都是如果是依賴公務預算公務預算最後就排起來排擠去嘛而且說實在尤其我們當我們的國防支出要佔這個GDP比例年年要提高的時候他當然一定相對排擠其他的預算"},{"start":382.859,"end":386.444,"text":"所以我也想請問那時候你們來拜訪我的時候呢也特別提到就是說我們退府基金因為它是一個長期的它也必須要穩定嘛公務人員 公教人員中是我們國家的資產嘛"},{"start":399.762,"end":421.313,"text":"那所以你們會不會有考慮讓他有一個穩定的財源來做撥補否則每一年像蔡市長喊價一樣啦是不是都這樣子嗎都像市長這樣我那個公教人員希望你們多補一些多編一些預算可是那政府可能每一次還是說其實我很希望"},{"start":421.693,"end":430.947,"text":"多撥補啦 最後仍然不能如願所以可不可能從長期來看又有一個找一個長期的穩定的來源"},{"start":431.963,"end":457.8,"text":"委員報告其實我們這個國家碰到這個所有的長期的一個基金不是只有退伏基金老保也是一樣的一個概念那如果說整個社會有共識說我們去弄一個什麼樣長期穩定的來源來同時讓這兩個基金可以永續我想任何作為基金的主管機關來講應該是都樂見其成但是我覺得這不會是只有退伏基金的問題因為我們還有一個"},{"start":458.761,"end":473.686,"text":"所以你也知道如果只是針對退府基金的話那勞保基金那廣大的勞工朋友說那為什麼只有長期來源只撥補給退府基金呢對不對我勞保基金我也要你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":475.414,"end":495.029,"text":"我們現在的所謂潛藏負債其實是勞保是比公保還比退補金還大我只是在講是說這是一個很長遠的議題所以如果社會有共識同時有一個如果真的要找到一個比較是穩定的裁員那我覺得同時考慮這個事情一定不是壞事情"},{"start":496.032,"end":519.177,"text":"那另外我請教一下在你們的報告裡面有特別提到到目前為止就是整個的收益率整個的收益率已經是超過6000多億是6600多億那請問一下這6000多億裡面不包括年改年金改革裡面"},{"start":520.276,"end":524.411,"text":"就是 挹注回來 這個退伏基金的錢應該大概2000億嘛"},{"start":526.852,"end":555.53,"text":"包括我們就是預注回來的錢一起去投資嘛那我們現在大概已經預注了2500多億了2500多億所以我的意思說你說到今年8月底退幅基金累計收益是6681億嘛然後這6681億包不包括那2500億這個應該是指來了以後一起去投資的我們來了一個在大水庫裡面去投資這樣一個累計的一個收益啦"},{"start":557.245,"end":575.473,"text":"所以包括嗎 包括那2500億他已經進來這個 我們基金裡面了所以就是運用規模 因為運用規模像一兆嘛所以那2500億是在那一兆裡面嗎對 包括在裡面好 那我請問一下 到8月底為止你們的收益率是4.53%4.53% 請問部長你滿意這個收益率嗎"},{"start":582.336,"end":603.225,"text":"我想這是非常高度專業的啦那這個我們一直在強調基金要看長期的一個投資就像我們最近五年大概有九點多平均九點多的一個收益率那今年因為有一些狀況會稍微上上下下那具體的事情這是由我們管理局是不是我請局長來做說明好 請局長請問一下這四點五聲你們滿意嗎"},{"start":606.095,"end":630.329,"text":"報告委員這是從基金成立以來的平均的收益率那在近10年跟5年跟3年的收益率不是啦 我就跟你講今年的嘛4.53是今年的嘛對 到今年8月還有4.53你當局長到現在為止基本的數字你要掌握啊因為大家就認為你這4.53當然是受利於在今年的股市還不錯嘛"},{"start":631.77,"end":661.33,"text":"是因為今年的股市還不錯我知道你們委外的收益率還不錯可是你們自己啊自行操作的其實今天還發生虧損我也不知道我這到時候還要了解我不曉得為什麼還會發生虧損你們主要是委外的部分因為今年大盤到現在為止九月份你們應該還是收益更好一點九月份因為那個股市漲得更多嘛所以你們當然是跟著股市這個股市漲你們當然就是那個收益比較好一點"},{"start":661.93,"end":685.727,"text":"但是外界還是會認為你們跟大盤的表現還是差太多了你們跟大盤的表現還是差太多所以我特別要講就是說因為我們退府基金其實老保基金也是如此長期以來都會為外界詬病就是為什麼我們的整體的收益率其實是偏低的"},{"start":686.107,"end":706.821,"text":"當然你們每次來比較都是你們跟台銀 台銀的長期存款我們比台銀的長期存款多這個不要比了啦 這個就不要比不然你就直接去存台銀就好了 幹嘛操作什麼呢有什麼好操作 還要去花這些手續費所以在怎麼樣去精進你們的投資收益非常重要"},{"start":707.381,"end":726.832,"text":"那另外從今年開始你們也開始開放讓大家用自己的專戶去做投資嘛因為你們這邊的資料不夠清楚那我可能到時候也會了解一下怎麼讓我們公務人員公教人員在他的整個退休金的這個大水池裡"},{"start":727.652,"end":752.678,"text":"裡面 讓他財務是健全的然後他的收益是穩健的不只穩健 而且這個收益也要一定要達到一定的水準你們退伏基金 績效越好公教人員越安心嘛 是不是這樣所以局長要掌握這個數字啊我怎麼問一問 4.5 明明是今年度的啊你一直在跟我講什麼全部平均的 好不好好 加油啦 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":673,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時12分）謝謝主席，我請銓敘部部長。"],["主席：請施部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長早。在你們的報告裡面有提及我們目前公務人員的一些修法和改進，也感謝考試院願意配合。至少我個人在上個會期，大概主要是兩個，一個就是公務人員考績法，把霸凌還有酒駕、性騷等等列入公務人員考績法，有這個法源，最嚴重的可記兩大過予以免職，建構一個更優良、更好的公務人員就業環境。另外一個是有關於放寬商調權的問題，我們在這邊也謝謝銓敘部從善如流，我覺得這個速度也算是快，從我們關心到最後的改進，所以就這一點，之前你們報告裡面的一些相關內容，我想就是予以感謝以及肯定。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員的支持。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。另外要跟部長、考試院這邊討論的，像現在我們財政委員會正召開聯席會議，就是針對這個特別預算在做審查，這一次的特別條例裡面有撥補勞保基金100億，在明年度的預算裡面，勞保基金的撥補也提高到跟114年一樣，把它變成1,200億。這幾年鑑於勞保基金的潛在性負債，政府都撥補一定的金額到勞保基金裡面。","可是另外一部分，除了勞保基金之外，同樣地就退撫基金，在你們的報告裡面特別提到，我們有潛藏性的債務，未來要提撥的也高達將近三兆之多，所以對現職公教人員來說，他們也希望退撫基金的財務能夠健全，這個對他們的未來而言，因為他們很害怕，等到有一天他退休的時候，退撫基金會不會因為財務的問題而影響他們的權益？","所以在這段時間裡面，譬如教師工會、教師團體、全教總就一直在爭取，針對公教退撫基金，要讓政府能夠根據精算加速撥補。可是到目前為止，以今年度來講，政府編列還是194億，他是以30年……但很多公教人員或者團體還是希望能夠依照10年的精算來撥補退撫基金。","那我想請問一下，明年度我們的預算是多少？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，公教加起來，我們都是用10年撥補的方式提出概算，明年公務人員部分應該是提出282億，而因為教育人員是歸教育部編列的，這是概算數。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以公務人員是282億？不是……公教退撫基金耶！"],["施部長能傑：就是公務人員退撫基金，我們編的概算數是282億，教育人員是198億，因為這是我們的編列數，但行政院並沒有核這麼多。"],["王委員鴻薇：我就問你預算數。"],["施部長能傑：不是法定預算，行政院對於公務人員的預算編列數是126億，而教育人員是92億，所以加起來是218億。"],["王委員鴻薇：218億，比今年的194億多一點點。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：多得不多。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：基本上還是依這20年嘛！"],["施部長能傑：20年，行政院用的是20年。"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊！你剛才講依10年，我還幫他們高興了一下……"],["施部長能傑：我們編列的時候是……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為他們在爭取，就是希望依10年來撥補。"],["施部長能傑：對，我理解這個議題。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是每一次政府都是依20年來撥補，所以我剛剛講預算數是多少？"],["施部長能傑：對，行政院編列的是要20……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你的218億，其實仍然是依照21年？"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以這個部分，就是勞保基金我們加速撥補，讓它的財務能夠更健全一點，當然勞保基金的潛藏性債務、負債也很可觀。我要特別講，現在公教人員希望也能夠加速撥補公教的退撫基金，可是如果依賴公務預算，最後就排擠來、排擠去的嘛！而且說實在的，尤其我們的國防支出占GDP比例年年要提高的時候，當然相對會排擠其他的預算。所以我想請問，你們來拜訪我的時候也特別提到，退撫基金因為是長期的，它也必須要穩定，公教人員總是國家的資產，所以你們會不會考慮讓它有一個穩定的財源而來做撥補？否則每一年像菜市場喊價一樣，是不是都這樣子？公教人員希望你們多補一些、多編一些預算，可是政府可能每一次還是說：哎呀！其實我很希望多撥補啦！最後仍然不能如願。所以可不可能從長期來看，要找一個長期、穩定的來源？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，其實我們國家碰到的所有的長期基金，不是只有退撫金，勞保也是一樣的概念，如果整個社會有共識說我們去弄一個怎麼樣長期穩定的來源，同時讓這兩個基金可以永續，我想作為基金的主管機關來講，應該是都……"],["王委員鴻薇：都樂見其成。"],["施部長能傑：樂見，但我覺得這不會是只有退撫基金的問題，因為我們還有一個勞保基金。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在你也知道，如果只是針對退撫基金的話，那勞保基金，廣大的勞工朋友說為什麼長期來源只撥補給退撫基金呢？對不對？勞保基金也要。你的意思是這樣？"],["施部長能傑：我們現在的所謂潛藏負債，其實勞保是比退撫金還大，我只是在講這是一個很長遠的議題，所以如果社會有共識，如果真的要找到一個比較穩定的財源，那我覺得同時考慮這個事情就一定不是壞事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。另外，在你們的報告裡面特別提到，到目前為止整個收益數已經超過六千多億，達到六千六百多億。請問一下，在這六千多億裡面包不包括年改挹注回退撫基金的錢？這部分應該有2,000億。"],["施部長能傑：就是包括把挹注回來的錢一起去投資嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["施部長能傑：到現在大概已經挹注了兩千五百多億。"],["王委員鴻薇：兩千五百多億？"],["施部長能傑：包括編列進來的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我的意思是，你說到今年8月底，退撫基金累計收益是6,681億。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：然後這6,681億包不包括那2,500億？"],["施部長能傑：這個應該是指來了以後一起去投資的，這是進到一個大水庫裡面去投資、去累計的收益。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以是有包括那2,500億？"],["施部長能傑：它已經進來基金裡面了。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在的運用規模就是1兆嘛，所以那2,500億就是在那1兆裡面嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對，有包括在裡面。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我請問一下，到8月底為止，你們的收益率是4.53%。"],["施部長能傑：是今年。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問部長，你滿意這個收益率嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我想這是非常高度專業的，我們一直強調基金要看長期的投資，就像我們最近5年平均大概有百分之九點多的收益率，今年因為有一些狀況會稍微上上下下，至於具體的事情則是由我們管理局處理，是不是有請局長來說明？"],["王委員鴻薇：好，請局長。請問一下，你們對這4.53%滿意嗎？"],["陳局長銘賢：報告委員，這是基金成立以來的平均收益率，跟近10年、5年、3年的收益率不太一樣。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是啦！我跟你講的是今年的，4.53%是今年的。"],["陳局長銘賢：對，到今年8月……"],["王委員鴻薇：你當局長到現在為止，對於基本的數字要掌握啊！因為大家就是認為這4.53%當然是受利於今年的股市還不錯嘛！我知道你們委外的收益率還不錯，可是你們自行操作的今天還是發生虧損，對此我也是不曉得，到時候也還要了解，我不曉得為什麼還會發生虧損？","主要是委外的部分，因為今年大盤到現在為止……你們9月的收益應該還是更好一點，因為9月的股市漲得更多，所以你們當然是跟著股市，股市漲那個收益當然就比較好一點，但是外界還是認為你們跟大盤的表現還是差太多了。","所以我特別要講的就是，因為我們退撫基金……其實勞保基金也是如此，長期以來都會為外界所詬病，為什麼這個整體的收益率其實是偏低的？當然，你們每次來比較的都是跟臺銀的長期存款，說是比臺銀的長期存款利率多。這個就不要比了啦！不然直接去存臺銀就好了，還操作什麼呢？有什麼好操作的，還要去花這些手續費！所以再怎麼去精進你們的投資收益非常重要。","另外，從今年開始，你們也開始開放讓大家用自己的專戶去做投資，因為你們這邊的資料不夠清楚，我可能到時候也會了解一下，怎麼讓公教人員整個退休金大水池的財務是健全的，然後它的收益是穩健的，不只要穩健，而且這個收益也要達到一定的水準。你們退撫基金的績效越好，公教人員就越安心嘛！"],["施部長能傑：當然。"],["王委員鴻薇：是不是這樣？所以局長要掌握這個數字啊！我怎麼問一問……4.53%明明是今年度的，你怎麼一直在跟我講什麼全部平均的？好不好？加油啦！謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝委員。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62b90aba88e3f7353a119d4e8153da54ef9ebc85139e6d204fc0690458ce51f1dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"10:01:50 - 10:12:19","影片長度":"00:10:29","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T10:01:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:12:19+08:00","duration":629,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.45534375,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.03284375,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.74159375,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.45846875000001,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.74846875,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.46971875000001,"end":113.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.42284375000001,"end":111.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.14846875,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.86534375000001,"end":135.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.56221875,"end":138.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.18659375000001,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.72221875,"end":163.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.78596875000002,"end":217.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.10659375,"end":228.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.99596875,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.14784375000002,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.94034375,"end":231.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.50534375,"end":240.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.10346875000002,"end":240.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.85409375,"end":245.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.95534375000003,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.49471875,"end":247.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.83596875,"end":254.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.87721875000003,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.84284375000004,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.88409375000003,"end":269.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.31784375,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.38534375,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.30909375000005,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.61284375,"end":272.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.31659375000004,"end":295.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.98096875000005,"end":339.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.38096875,"end":300.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.58284375,"end":303.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.57409375000003,"end":305.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.31159375000004,"end":312.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.44596875,"end":314.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.49659375000005,"end":314.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.24284375,"end":318.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.43659375000004,"end":320.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.58221875000004,"end":333.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.42096875000004,"end":340.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.45471875000004,"end":343.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.15471875000003,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.86221875,"end":360.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.94534375,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.34159375,"end":362.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.64096875,"end":363.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.42534375,"end":365.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.67596875000004,"end":419.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.08346875,"end":420.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.74159375000005,"end":457.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.95096875,"end":482.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.31096875000003,"end":477.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.63909375000003,"end":492.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.29159375,"end":495.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.98721875,"end":522.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.29096875,"end":564.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.7822187500001,"end":567.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.6597187500001,"end":571.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.9584687500001,"end":574.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.0634687500001,"end":584.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.0915937500001,"end":589.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.2765937500001,"end":628.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.6084687499999,"end":624.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.4265937499999,"end":627.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.6628437500001,"end":627.7978437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.819,"end":5.642,"text":"謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長委員長是秘書長還有部長早那剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛有說我也會很快的競速就會提出政務人員法"},{"start":27.476,"end":51.231,"text":"那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以呢這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說"},{"start":52.452,"end":67.946,"text":"看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的"},{"start":70.327,"end":95.884,"text":"他的這個主管權責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長 施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法那再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案"},{"start":96.304,"end":114.692,"text":"所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告好 我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一定提供"},{"start":115.212,"end":135.209,"text":"對 那就是麻煩就整併在同一份報告裡面好 那接下來呢本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題這次的議案首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題有齁 有看過"},{"start":139.761,"end":162.535,"text":"有看到這個議題嗎那在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中那公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然續員奉給會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個"},{"start":164.076,"end":190.352,"text":"情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用"},{"start":191.593,"end":216.851,"text":"更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生"},{"start":218.177,"end":239.173,"text":"我跟委員報告 當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講的就是說有人降掉關等啦對 降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯"},{"start":241.335,"end":269.203,"text":"為什麼有人這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去那有些人各式各樣的理由那我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部呢也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變"},{"start":270.616,"end":292.598,"text":"我們現在的制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的"},{"start":293.399,"end":295.942,"text":"因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說啦這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題嘛"},{"start":309.798,"end":312.339,"text":"就這一點來講說不定有些高職等的官員他就升等了但是他想要去做更輕鬆更沒有壓力更沒有負擔的工作我覺得這個會造成一個工作上的不平等我認為說法院預算中心他們今天提出了"},{"start":328.068,"end":343.015,"text":"這樣的一個報告我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎這對這個問題然後分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣"},{"start":351.659,"end":364.708,"text":"應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查啦讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好 那麼接下來呢我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到這個修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則"},{"start":379.617,"end":407.682,"text":"那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就要调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多"},{"start":408.717,"end":419.113,"text":"就是你的這個八九指等的員額增加但是呢你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮緊他的"},{"start":421.017,"end":446.964,"text":"不會不會 這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8那至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置"},{"start":447.744,"end":466.429,"text":"這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好 那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層可能會出現基層人力不足的問題"},{"start":477.031,"end":489.709,"text":"出現短缺那麼卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力的問題可能我們文字沒有表達很好但是我們有這個過程都跟行政機關有充分的討論然後做一個通盤性的檢討不會出現委員講的一些議題"},{"start":492.346,"end":513.806,"text":"但是我们随时还是money个案的一个状况然后做必要的调整好那么最后一个问题就是说这个最近有一份报道指出就台湾的员工过劳指数高达36%那么这不仅是亚洲之冠而且远远高于北美洲欧洲等等这些国家那么所以呢台湾俨然就是一个过劳之岛"},{"start":514.406,"end":530.862,"text":"那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面他顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%"},{"start":532.623,"end":561.446,"text":"这个部分要显现台湾的工作环境的确有过劳的情况那么因此最近又有民众在公共政策网络平台上面发起联署提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道群讯部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法"},{"start":561.886,"end":587.779,"text":"未來有沒有可能會朝向更縮短工時的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個工時其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼"},{"start":588.359,"end":615.211,"text":"是啦 不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天的缩短"},{"start":616.071,"end":627.236,"text":"每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時2分）謝謝主席，在這邊先請秘書長還有施部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長、部長早。剛剛吳宗憲委員有特別提到，對於政務人員行為基準法，他有提出相關的草案，本席剛剛也說我也會儘速提出政務人員法，因為大家都認為有關於政務人員的行為規範及相關權益應該要儘速的法制化，畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣，所以我也希望考試院能夠儘速提出相關的草案。畢竟在民國100年的時候你們就曾經提出過政務人員法草案，雖然看起來現在對於政務人員法的主管機關、權責機關有所質疑，可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼，所以是不是可以請考試院也提出一份研析報告？有關於政務人員的主管權責應該由哪一個機關、哪一個院來負責？因為上次你們在討論的過程當中，施部長有一些不同的看法，認為可能是在行政院，但是我想因為早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法，再加上現在政務人員退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案，所以我認為在權責上面的釐清是很重要的，是不是可以請秘書長在一個月內提出一份報告？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，我們來做一個分析給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後也可以參考一下其他國家的狀況，有關於政務人員法。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，其他國家的處理方式我們一併提供。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，那就麻煩整併在同一份報告裡面。","接下來本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題，首先請教秘書長跟部長，請問你們有沒有注意到立法院預算中心對於115年度預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題？"],["施部長能傑：有，有看過。"],["翁委員曉玲：立法院預算中心在最新的報告中指出2021年到2025年6月這期間，公務人員因為降調低官等，或者同官等裡面調任低職等卻仍然敍原俸給，會產生一個高資低用的現象，而有這樣情況的公務員人數高達九千多人，包括降調低一官等職務，中央、地方政府合計有一千多人，同官等內調任低職等職務，中央及地方政府合計將近八千人，這樣一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用，更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的情況，工作調配也不公平，甚至有些投機的情形。所以我想請問考試院針對近萬的公務員出現這種高薪低用的現象，有進行過相關的研析評估嗎？有了解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，預算中心有提到這個議題，這方面我也是專業，所以他們談的一些議題可能只看到現象，沒有把原因講得很清楚，不過它確實點到一個問題，我們這樣講，所謂「高資低用」這個字眼定義本來就不是很清楚，它實際講的就是有人降調官等、降調職等，這才是重點。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒錯。"],["施部長能傑：為什麼有人這樣？因為都是自願性的，每一個人都有個人的規劃，這樣講好了，譬如有人可能要返鄉，可能要離開現職，但是對方就是沒有適當的職等，所以他就只好去，還有些人有各式各樣的理由。我應該這樣講，報告裡面點到一個重點，確實是銓敘部已經在討論的事情，就是現在如果降調職等，他的薪水會不會改變。"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上都會改變，依照制度……"],["施部長能傑：我們現在的制度是本俸不改變，專業加給也不改變，如果從主管降調成非主管，他沒有主管加給，可是這個事情確實是一個議題，如果他降調職等，理論上他的職責已經不一樣了，那個本俸因為法律明文規定，我們不能夠去調整，可是專業加給應不應該跟著調整？這是一個值得去討論的議題。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，本席也認為這個議題其實很重要，我認為銓敘部這裡要提出一個檢討報告或研析報告，不見得是檢討，去分析這樣一個現象。"],["施部長能傑：這其實我們已經在……沒問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：坦白說這也可能會影響到整個行政機關的效能。"],["施部長能傑：就這一點來講，我覺得我們會做……"],["翁委員曉玲：同時，說不定有些高職等的官員已經升等了，但是他想要去做更輕鬆、更沒有壓力、更沒有負擔的工作，我覺得這會造成工作上的不平等，立法院預算中心今天提出了這樣的一個報告，我認為銓敘部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析，所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內提出相關的書面報告？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯，我跟委員報告，在……"],["翁委員曉玲：去分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼，我覺得這可以看出一些端倪，到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣。"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，我們不會去問他調動的原因，所以我只能說我們大概對這個議題的看法是什麼，跟委員提交一個報告，那後續要怎麼處理……"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問卷調查的調查。"],["施部長能傑：對、對、對，還是可以。"],["翁委員曉玲：讓大家了解一下這樣的情況。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我還有第二個問題，考試院跟銓敘部在業務報告裡面都有提到修正各機關職稱、官等、職等、員額配置的準則，從這個修正準則裡面看起來，就是會放寬各個官等的配置比率，會提高中高階人力，比如八、九職等的人力員額，但是卻又調降基層員額的最低標準，譬如未來的五職等可能會調降，只錄取5%，薦任六、七職等會調降5%到15%，這樣會不會造成以後科長比科員多？因為八、九職等的員額增加，但是基層公務員的員額卻又縮減了。"],["施部長能傑：這個完全不會，我們所謂調高職等，因為科長有多少職務都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的，我們只是說現在可能有一些職等比較低，而且是主管的職等比較低，我們把他調到八到九或者是七到八；至於比較低階的，譬如土木工程，土木工程具有高度專業技術性，我們就認為它不需要那麼多委任職等的配置，這個有利於機關吸引人才，所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降，並不是全部都往下降，這是一個通盤性的討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，看起來就是可能你們在很多方面沒有想得很清楚，譬如到底是在哪一個職系、哪個職等裡面，你們可能會把它調高，我們這樣來看你的報告的話，就會認為好像未來可能會出現基層人力不足的問題。"],["施部長能傑：不會。"],["翁委員曉玲：出現短缺，卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力。"],["施部長能傑：可能我們的文字沒有表達得很好，但是這個過程我們都跟行政機關有充分的討論，然後做一個通盤性的檢討，不會出現委員講的一些議題。當然我們隨時還是要monitor個案的狀況，然後做必要的調整。"],["翁委員曉玲：最後一個問題，最近有一份報導指出臺灣的員工過勞指數高達36%，這不僅是亞洲之冠而且遠遠高於北美洲、歐洲等等國家，所以臺灣儼然就是一個過勞之島，事實上整個報告顯示出在亞太地區國家職場的倦怠率也就是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的，可是臺灣員工的疲勞度卻是增加的，還是高達36%，顯示臺灣的工作環境的確有過勞的情況，因此最近又有民眾在公共政策網路平台上面發起連署，提案推動四日工作制，這個議題其實在兩年之前有民眾提過，就是每週上4天班可以放假3天，這個議題在今年已經又提出來了，不知道銓敘部還有考試院對於這樣子的提案有沒有什麼看法？未來有沒有可能朝向更縮短工時的方向去做？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，整個國家的工時其實應該是由國家整體的政策來考量，並不應該說好像是政府部門做一套、民間部門做一套，所以這是一個很複雜的議題。我覺得有任何一個提案，我想政府部門都應該可以納入……大家討論看看這樣的優缺點到底是什麼，我只能這樣講。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啦！不過公務部門也可以帶頭做起，畢竟我們有這麼多廣大的公務員，我們也很希望公務人員在身心各方面都能夠得到最好的調適，回到工作崗位上的時候才可以好好工作，所以也是可以思考。就算我們不能夠很迅速地推動週休4日，但是有沒有可能把現在的工作時數、每天上班8小時縮短，每天各縮短1小時，類似週休2.5天，這個方向可以思考，也請考試院跟銓敘部可以就這個議案去想一想，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲）：接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb628626c3892f594045819c05f3ca7f3b919ebc85139e6d204fc0690458ce51f1dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:46:24 - 10:08:41","影片長度":"00:22:17","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T09:46:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:08:41+08:00","duration":1337,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.59534375,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.64596875,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.36721875,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":63.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.17284375,"end":76.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.03159375,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.44534375,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.37346875,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.39034375,"end":123.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.09221875,"end":122.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.77534375,"end":123.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.11284375000001,"end":141.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.64596875,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.83721875,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.20409375,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.46534375000002,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.05096875,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":206.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.73034375,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.53034375000001,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.01471875000001,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.48971875,"end":223.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.21096875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.39221875,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.71096875,"end":239.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.24659375000002,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.52909375000002,"end":247.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.87409375000001,"end":256.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.89096875,"end":249.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.23971875,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.73721875,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.85784375000003,"end":271.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.02534375,"end":325.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.67971875,"end":305.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.24159375,"end":327.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.69284375,"end":327.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.70971875000004,"end":328.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.72659375,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.27846875,"end":340.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.54721875,"end":342.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.03659375,"end":358.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.04659375,"end":360.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.17284375,"end":375.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.87096875000003,"end":401.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.12659375000004,"end":388.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.66471875,"end":409.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.51971875000004,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.02596875,"end":421.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.53971875,"end":417.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.93971875000005,"end":431.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.19159375000004,"end":448.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.54096875000005,"end":436.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.07471875000005,"end":455.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.53784375000004,"end":484.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.71221875000003,"end":474.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.55034375,"end":484.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.44034375,"end":505.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.38221875000005,"end":534.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.5634687500001,"end":542.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.2334687499999,"end":554.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.94034375,"end":565.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.9509687500001,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.05971875,"end":574.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.2490937499999,"end":612.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.52596875,"end":612.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.55971875,"end":612.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.6059687500001,"end":613.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.65659375,"end":613.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.70721875,"end":613.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.94346875,"end":647.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.6765937499999,"end":649.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.09409375,"end":649.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.83659375,"end":650.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.78159375,"end":650.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.8490937500001,"end":651.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.0178437500001,"end":651.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.0347187500001,"end":652.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.65471875,"end":659.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.97846875,"end":668.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.11346875,"end":660.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.97284375,"end":669.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.07409375,"end":669.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.09096875,"end":669.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.10784375,"end":669.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.24284375,"end":669.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.81659375,"end":669.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.2890937500001,"end":694.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.23034375,"end":696.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.79971875,"end":726.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.14784375,"end":710.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.0422187500001,"end":711.3797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.1372187500001,"end":725.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.02721875,"end":788.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.63346875,"end":812.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.64659375,"end":814.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.8403437500001,"end":818.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.54846875,"end":825.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.91034375,"end":828.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.01534375,"end":851.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.16784375,"end":852.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.9609687500001,"end":858.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.55096875,"end":870.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.03846875,"end":894.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.1315937500001,"end":897.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.9665937500001,"end":898.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.72596875,"end":907.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.72034375,"end":926.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.73721875,"end":908.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.8172187500002,"end":909.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":927.27846875,"end":937.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":938.6184687500001,"end":941.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":943.5290937500001,"end":964.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.68596875,"end":971.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":972.82409375,"end":973.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":973.97159375,"end":974.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":975.1865937500002,"end":988.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":988.58534375,"end":990.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":990.0365937500001,"end":999.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":999.01409375,"end":1009.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1009.54409375,"end":1012.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1013.22284375,"end":1013.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1013.22284375,"end":1017.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1014.64034375,"end":1015.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1016.46284375,"end":1016.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1018.0490937500001,"end":1023.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1023.9722187500001,"end":1024.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1024.20846875,"end":1026.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1024.22534375,"end":1030.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1030.09784375,"end":1076.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1070.61471875,"end":1071.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1076.4365937500002,"end":1076.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1076.8584687500002,"end":1076.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1076.9765937500001,"end":1098.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1083.57471875,"end":1083.9290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1098.20534375,"end":1107.2840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1107.2840937500002,"end":1113.0384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1107.5203437500002,"end":1108.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1113.0384687500002,"end":1113.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1114.9622187500001,"end":1126.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1126.87596875,"end":1165.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1127.3653437500002,"end":1127.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1165.97534375,"end":1166.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1166.51534375,"end":1166.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1166.53221875,"end":1172.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1171.72971875,"end":1172.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1172.97846875,"end":1175.0372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1174.2947187500001,"end":1174.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1175.5940937500002,"end":1200.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1199.3878437500002,"end":1200.4847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1200.4847187500002,"end":1200.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1200.6028437500001,"end":1200.6365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1200.7884687500002,"end":1200.9065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1200.9065937500002,"end":1230.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1201.5815937500001,"end":1201.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1202.22284375,"end":1202.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1230.77534375,"end":1230.8597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1231.3153437500002,"end":1242.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1242.45284375,"end":1258.3153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1258.61909375,"end":1263.3272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1263.7490937500002,"end":1300.6209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1300.7222187500001,"end":1313.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1315.0997187500002,"end":1323.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1323.72284375,"end":1336.26096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.77,"end":24.79,"text":"謝謝主席 請洪森漢部長部長好根據行政院長卓榮泰他在10月7號的時候在立法院也證實那目前呢全國共有398家的事業單位實施減班休息那影響人數達到8505人"},{"start":27.853,"end":51.834,"text":"那其中跟美國關稅相關的是310家那影響也超過7000人也創了一年半以來的新高那也就是說關稅實施宣布以來的最高點可以看到這個線圖是非常的陡峭那關稅的海嘯已經看來已經要來臨了那其中製造業的佔比呢高達了95%主要也集中在"},{"start":52.795,"end":72.847,"text":"機械設備的製造廠大概140家3559人那金屬製品的製造業還有汽車零組件及運輸工具製造業那我還也是想要再問一下那目前為止我們勞動部我們洪部長你要如何評估此波的關稅衝擊對於我國勞動市場的實際影響程度"},{"start":77.19,"end":102.053,"text":"或者更精確的說未來三個未來短期的話啦三個月以內你們的預估是什麼那中長期甚至到一年半一年一年以內預估受影響的人會是怎麼樣的情況還是要還是會如司長所說他受訪的時候講到的訂單回流趨勢在趨緩當中我想要請問一下部長你對於這件事情你的評估"},{"start":103.707,"end":123.513,"text":"跟文說明因為的確現在在關稅衝擊產業或勞工就業的評估其實包括學界包括智庫包括產業都有很多評估其實我們並不是一份報告我們並不是用一份報告的角度來想而是我們其實只要有相關的評估我們都會去了解部長我想請問那你們低中高怎麼評估他"},{"start":124.173,"end":147.383,"text":"可是你們應該其實我一直講嘛就是評估要你們一定要有一定的評估不是說不能有誤差那你的低中高你怎麼判斷因為我這樣問的意思是說我大概知道部長你等一下一定會說我們會用最審慎的態度以對可是我覺得這樣子不夠精確也不夠負責任我想要知道的是有沒有明確的評估說低中高你們認為"},{"start":148.463,"end":168.338,"text":"低推估中推估高推估因為因為剛剛有講到你們的報告裡面寫到這個笑上一起這個平緩我覺得這的確是讓人家有一種喪事喜辦的感覺沒有絕對不是粉飾太平的感覺絕對不是我沒有啊我現在要跟你講說你的報告裡面寫出來是這樣讓我們非常憂心你"},{"start":169.099,"end":194.252,"text":"低估了這件事情因為有許多的報告說真正的影響可能是年底或是明年甚至是明年一整年對吧那現在才剛開始我就是想要問對於勞動部來講你的評估是什麼你有沒有去做低中高的推估那各自應該怎麼去判斷跟我說我們也看到蠻多產業界的評估認為有可能關稅的衝擊也可能還會有些延遲"},{"start":195.413,"end":211.352,"text":"就是說比方說會有一些遞延的狀況遞延的狀況所以我想從政府的角度我們都是去設想相對嚴峻的狀況我覺得這才是負責任對部長你講對了但是你這個還是空話我剛說你沒有去做精確的推估"},{"start":212.173,"end":239.176,"text":"因為這個趨勢圖嘛你一直說你們會看趨勢嘛當然可是你的回答讓我讓本席認為啊這個都沒有真正的聚焦回答出你們究竟有沒有做低中高的推估那這個數據到底是什麼呢因為我剛已經我們剛已經預測你的回答我們基本上都是我們會綜合目前產業上面的資訊也包括智庫學界的資訊所以這是為什麼沒有部長這還是空話我想問你有沒有推估你現在推估的數據有沒有一個"},{"start":239.936,"end":256.044,"text":"有沒有一個真正的趨勢跟文說明這絕對不是空話因為我們是請我們的發展署每個禮拜都必須去update現在最新的產業狀況你們有沒有退估就是假設用這個未來的趨勢圖有沒有一個不同的走向你覺得大概會是什麼樣子"},{"start":257.265,"end":269.733,"text":"我們不是用一套推估的方式啦因為現在業界或者是智庫相關的推估或者相關的評估很多所以我們是綜合這些資訊然後來做假設相對嚴峻的狀況發生的話那你的嚴峻狀況的假設是什麼當然我們必須假設嚴峻的狀況是這個數字還會增加嗎"},{"start":278.158,"end":303.277,"text":"那增加的你覺得是多少有沒有一個數字比如說到年底你預估多少到明年初預估多少那你打算怎麼應對部長 之所以我要求這件事情是因為所有的政策你也有遞延的狀況發生比如說你現在預備的這個政策那等到真正發生的時候你沒準備好還要通過很多行政程序的時候受傷的還是勞工"},{"start":303.757,"end":321.903,"text":"這就是為什麼我一直說那所以我想我就是真的很具體的想問部長因為我們其實已經花了大概五分鐘的時間你一直不跟我講具體你們推估的狀況是什麼就算你說你用最嚴峻的情況來看待那我也覺得很好部長可以對著大家說或是在這個質詢的時候說你預計嚴重的狀況是什麼會達到多少人"},{"start":326.291,"end":340.401,"text":"好 你預估比較嚴重的狀況我們認為這個產業影響的狀況不一定是一個數字但是我們就是會用我們會設想相對嚴峻的狀況我們都要把它設想進來的這樣子的態度跟立場來去規劃我們相關支持的措施"},{"start":341.658,"end":358.285,"text":"其實部長因為你們說你們每兩個禮拜公佈一下這個公佈這個數據嘛對不對之所以要公佈數據第一個讓社會大眾知道狀況第二個是要讓大家預測未來可能是什麼狀況然後好做因應所以包含部尤其是你是第一線的"},{"start":359.105,"end":375.091,"text":"部會首長尤其是勞動部我們已經花了很多時間你還是不願意回答說你們的嚴峻狀況到底是什麼我很不好意思因為我覺得這個的確很重要我很希望部長可以誠實的面對或者是說告訴我你們到底有沒有推估還是你沒有推估"},{"start":375.951,"end":390.031,"text":"那你如果沒有推估我可不可以告訴你說你們回去推估三個程度的狀況可以嗎跟文說明我們是持續不斷的評估甚至最新的這些因為其實你前面上前面的這個質詢的委員你有說這個我們要看趨勢"},{"start":391.893,"end":408.673,"text":"對啊要看趨勢啊那你的趨勢到底是什麼趨勢是往未來走的現在這個是已經繼承的事實可是你明明也講說你們會看趨勢我們當然必須去做未來這個數字還會增加的準備就一個行政部門的角度來說我們當然必須做這個數字還會增加的準備"},{"start":409.734,"end":423.924,"text":"當然那當然對那你的準備是準備多少嗎就是說你預估是多少你部長你不能一直跟我繞啊這個我們光一個問題我這個這個我就問不出來你到底推估的是多少跟我們說明因為其實就會衝擊的狀況"},{"start":425.445,"end":448.495,"text":"第一波最前面可能像是減班休息那當然狀況不好的時候可能會沒有你講的是因為我現在問你你預估的是什麼然後然後現在的推估到年底我們我們剛剛一直說過你看了各種模型那那你可不可以告訴我你看了哪些模型你預估有人說比較悲觀比較樂觀到年底到明年是多少你有沒有做好準備我們想要知道是這個然後你的趨勢你有沒有"},{"start":449.535,"end":470.309,"text":"你腦子裡面有沒有想說我們可能現在你剛說最嚴峻的狀況請問最嚴峻的狀況你認為是多少跟文說明齁其實當然這個業界裡面相關的評估有些比較樂觀有些比較沒那麼樂觀好那你講一下樂觀和沒那麼樂觀是多少就比方說可能會不會關稅的訂單的衝擊"},{"start":472.43,"end":484.185,"text":"會有遞延的狀況我們剛講過 對那所以我想不一定它是一個數字我說那整個影響的衝擊的狀況它不一定是一個數字可是我們都會來預先部長我想要說啦"},{"start":485.509,"end":505.382,"text":"我們今天之所以排這個案就是要擔心說未來的衝擊會衝擊勞工的失業更加嚴峻因為看到現在走勢圖已經變得非常陡峭可是我想要很遺憾的說我今天已經問了八分鐘的時間部長沒有辦法講出一個到年底你預估可能的狀況跟明年的狀況可能是怎麼樣"},{"start":506.465,"end":533.091,"text":"我覺得我非常遺憾這個身為勞動部的部長組織機關怎麼會不能回答這個問題而且一直避著回答呢我覺得即便你告訴大家說可能很嚴峻我覺得這對於社會也有一個預期的心態可以去做準備嘛然後也可以讓人家知道說好我們部長照著這個嚴峻的狀況來做準備我們可以安心我們可以告訴大家說好這個勞動部會充分的準備結果我很遺憾我為了8分鐘"},{"start":534.631,"end":552.461,"text":"居然講不出來我甚至說那你告訴我一個樂觀的不樂觀的是怎麼樣我想部長我的諮詢的問題應該沒有很多跟我的說明比方說如果失業的狀況比較多所以我們也準備了這個勞工就業通的計劃勞工就業通的計劃就是來針對失業勞工他如果要轉職的話"},{"start":552.981,"end":570.345,"text":"那既然你準備了這些計畫難道你不是有一個根據嗎就是說我今天看到這個數據了我的根據是什麼你要準備這些計畫根據是什麼好我跟你說這個問題因為我後面還有很多題目結果8分鐘來我們的部長沒有辦法回答這個問題我想要請問勞動部統計"},{"start":575.305,"end":599.448,"text":"尤其是這一次大台中地區成為無薪假最大的重災區有117家那有2598人實施無薪假 佔全國總數的30.5%其次是台南市55家1328人彰化縣市35家1135人那其實基本上光大台中地區第一名就超過了第二名第三名的總和"},{"start":600.109,"end":612.287,"text":"那這也反映中部的這個製造業的確是受創最重那我想要為這個部分來特別請命請問這部分有沒有什麼可以特別因應的措施"},{"start":613.646,"end":634.762,"text":"跟文說的確我們現在看到中部是現在在減半休息裡面這個通報數字最多的區域那這也是為什麼其實我們在我自己在上週其實我也到中部那跟中部的很多的傳統產業我們當面的做溝通跟座談那來了解大家的需求"},{"start":635.262,"end":657.979,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來支持大家的需求所以我們也討論到很多減半休息的問題那怎麼來支持因為的確現在有一些產業跟很多的勞工他們對於我們現在的支持措施還不是這麼瞭解他們還是不是那麼瞭解那也包括產業的宣傳還不足這個相關的對產業跟的確我們在這些座談的過程因為我們有對工會勞工工會的宣傳"},{"start":658.719,"end":683.074,"text":"也有對產業的宣傳 我們的確現在本席有參與過 他們說你們可不可以做一些簡單的圖卡可不可以就是更明確的告訴他們可以怎麼告訴他們工會的成員是 對吧應該是比較早期 現在其實都有相關的圖卡跟相關計畫的措施可是最重要的事情是 我想我們還是 我是直接的我們是直接到這個中部的現場那因為很多的產業的這個企業界的"},{"start":684.915,"end":711.682,"text":"的這些高階的主管其實根本反映了蠻多的問題那我們也都把這些問題收集下來一一的來希望來協助大家那具體的方案有沒有什麼我剛問的問題具體的方案是什麼第一個我們當然現在一個很重要的去支持大家減班休息的狀況當然是我們這個強化版的公安令措施的薪資差額補貼我們從過去五次五成的補貼現在拉到七成拉到七成"},{"start":712.262,"end":730.838,"text":"那甚至其實也可以讓企業來申請這個我們的再充電的計畫那以前是再充電計畫跟公安令措施是不能併領的我們這次把它改成是可以併領的最多是可以領到這個勞工員們的薪資好 謝謝部長 那勞動部在投資青年就業方案裡面"},{"start":731.599,"end":756.225,"text":"初次尋職青年穩定就業的計畫從112年到113年花費超過3億但是就業比率卻從67%下降至52%而且其中半數的青年於核發尋職津貼後不能夠連續就職滿90天進而導致青年失業率也是超過全國平均失業率的兩倍有餘"},{"start":757.125,"end":775.313,"text":"那在薪資層面的勞發署投入了57億的經費執行徵好新方案希望提高青年畢業後的薪資但是110年到112年的三年期間其實青年初次任職卻只有就領取基本薪資者平均大概是25%的水平"},{"start":777.074,"end":799.604,"text":"所以綜合上面我的意思就是說青年面對就這個面對他就業率低薪資低的情況喔勞動部投入大筆的經費成效看起來不是很不是很好我想要說綜合關稅的衝擊這些受影響的產業本來應該可以開缺嗎成為吸引青年人就業的管道但是現在面臨減班休息的狀況也"},{"start":800.945,"end":816.181,"text":"就這個自顧不暇所以他們也不可能所謂的開缺那面對青年的這個困境那也尤其剛剛說中部重災區到現在中部青年的困境部長有沒有想法怎麼改善跟恩文說明因為協助"},{"start":819.765,"end":836.85,"text":"協助尋職的青年我覺得這部分會有兩個部分第一個我們希望協助青年進入職場這是第一段第二段是希望進入職場的時間能夠持續就是說是一個比較穩定狀況的就業所以委員在這邊看到的狀況是我們在這裡面蠻多數據其實我們是有協助他第一段有進入到職場"},{"start":837.85,"end":852.89,"text":"可是的確會有一些青年他在這個職場裡面的穩定性還是有一段落差所以他可能工作了幾個月比方一兩個月他最後又是離職的狀況所以我想這部分我們還要再來努力我們還要再來努力"},{"start":853.05,"end":869.792,"text":"那部長這部分可不可以再提供本席辦公室你們的努力改善的檢討報告可以 所以我們其實這一次在關稅的這個因應裡面我們其實也把我們這個初次尋職青年的穩定就業計畫我們也做了加碼 也做了再強化也是考慮到這些事情"},{"start":870.433,"end":893.946,"text":"其實部長我還是想要回去講我今天蠻擔心的因為因為你說你會檢討這些狀況可是我就是很擔心連原本你的預估的狀態預估的衝擊狀態到底多少好像你都不能表達所以我要回去剛剛說我第一個問題我們剛花8分鐘的問題我也想要拜託部長今天你沒辦法回答出來可是會後可提供本席辦公室你們預估的"},{"start":895.185,"end":912.799,"text":"比較樂觀的情況跟比較悲觀的情況可以嗎我想我們 我還是要跟委員說這個所謂的預估跟評估它不一定是一個數字那我們會用一個相對嚴峻的情境如果不是數字的話那剛剛那些圖就沒有任何意義了嘛所以我是認為是這樣"},{"start":913.9,"end":940.89,"text":"你們必須要誠實的面對自己的狀況我們才可以改善所以我在這裡沒有要再給你究責這件事我希望可以會後給本席辦公室你們自己內部開會我相信你們一定有討論請給我你們討論的你們認為的嚴峻狀況你們要怎麼應對的嚴峻狀況的那個數字然後我才會我們才會回來好好講說你今天提供這些方案是不是真的可以解決這樣的情況可以嗎我們來看一下怎麼表達"},{"start":943.578,"end":971.622,"text":"好因為這個跟我接下來這題也有很大的關係有很多的家庭工廠很多小型的公司這個公司包含他自己個人是5到10個人遠遠不到大量解雇的範圍所以等於通報上他可能不會被納入減班休息受影響的計畫那但這樣的小型工廠其實在台灣是普遍存在請問部長這樣黑數你們有統計到嗎如果沒有統計到受影響的統計數字是不是也會失真實際上影響的狀況有沒有可能更嚴重"},{"start":974.022,"end":992.07,"text":"確實當然可能可能會存在這個因為這可能如果委員按照委員紅線畫的這部分其實是歇業的廠商那如果是歇業廠商他可能就會是之前通報如果是歇業的話那就是歇業就是之前的部分了"},{"start":992.93,"end":1011.95,"text":"因真正官場歇業的企業廠商及失業勞工的黑數遠比通報者還多對 所以我意思是說因為這一條紅線畫的是官場歇業嘛它不是只是訂單減少而已嘛所以那可能就會是在之前通報的狀況下所以剛剛也有那個失業失業不是就是也是相關的數據嗎"},{"start":1013.411,"end":1029.309,"text":"就是我們剛剛討論失業的數據目前整體所以有沒有可能有就是統計因為你之前好像也有報導你有說也有可能有這種黑數的問題就是可能的確會有一些企業有一些企業他有減慢休息但他沒有通報這當然有這個狀況"},{"start":1030.31,"end":1045.374,"text":"好那再來就是剛剛有講到你們之前你們說因應要因應美國對等關稅的支持勞工就業案推動的要點裡面規劃六大工作那有一個是維持僱傭安定那你之前是先開放三個業別的申請嘛"},{"start":1045.754,"end":1064.254,"text":"那7月的時候本席也有質詢過要求未來擴大適用的產業那你當時也有承諾說你會擴大所以的確目前為止你們增加到9個業別對不對那所謂受影響的傳統產業還有包含其實現在還有包含不少被遺漏的包含鋼鐵包含水泥造紙"},{"start":1064.915,"end":1084.089,"text":"建材營造或是玻璃陶瓷化工業我想也遠遠不止這九個業別所以部長你這部分還有沒有相關的評估有沒有要納入或者是沒有納入的原因這些的跟文說因為我們相關的這個行業別當然一個部分很重要的這個行業別的來源是來自經濟部因為經濟部對產業的動態當然他們有"},{"start":1087.772,"end":1108.717,"text":"有一個這個產業主管機關的部門在負責這個事情所以我們其實關於這個公告的頁別其實我們也是持續在滾動的在檢討對 所以你們還是也會在看到事實的狀況你們會再擴大不會只聽經濟部的這個分析你們自己勞動部也會主動的調查我們會主動的來滾動的檢視那當然我們也會跟經濟部討論"},{"start":1114.994,"end":1136.553,"text":"好 那我們希望說你們繼續滾動的這個要及時的反映這些相關的業別像我剛剛提到這些業別他們應該也是受衝擊的產業可以請你們回去針對這些這個業別再去做評估可以嗎是 當然我們都來掌握 對好 再來就是勞動部將減班休息的工資這個差額從五成到七成嘛對不對 剛剛你有提到然後最長六個月"},{"start":1137.373,"end":1165.947,"text":"但是雖然有提升但吸引力不高最終政策成效不佳的結果也反映出來所以根據媒體報導目前你們剛說充電再出發訓練以及勞工再充電計畫參與率僅有6%成效不彰也呼應了本席的評估那請問你們要怎麼提供勞工的參訓的意願然後是不是要進一步考慮放寬申請的這個條件或是提高補助額度還是你們認為只是僅僅的宣傳不佳而已"},{"start":1166.787,"end":1194.03,"text":"跟委員說明你剛才講的薪資差額補貼跟這個充電債出發的這是兩個計畫這是不同的計畫之前綠豆不夾現在的確在充電債出發的這個實施來參與的人數是比較低那比較低有幾個原因我們內部也做了檢討第一個當然是宣傳的部分所以有很多的工會跟我們說希望我們擴大宣傳包括宣傳的資源其實真的很多工會都跟我們講這件事情所以真的我也要請"},{"start":1195.051,"end":1216.166,"text":"大院來支持我們相關的一些宣傳的經費啦我覺得好那第二個是的確一些企業他們說他們現在在一個比較辛苦的狀況他可能不一定自己有辦法現在來辦訓因為充電在出發的計畫是勞工參與訓練那如果企業辦訓的話我們會給企業辦訓的補貼"},{"start":1219.568,"end":1241.182,"text":"那勞工可以領參訓的津貼所以他的前提是有個參訓這件事情那確實的確會有些企業說他在這個階段他很辛苦所以他可能不一定那麼有能力能夠辦訓好部長這個部分第一個你們要去檢討執行率的差別這個是為什麼執行率這麼低這短期的部分可是另外其實後面本學還有兩個題目但是我知道時間的問題"},{"start":1242.623,"end":1256.984,"text":"其實現在有這個產業轉型也有很大的問題對吧現在產業轉型是一個問題然後再來你短期我也想要講到評估譬如說現在台美的關係他們說晶片50 50他可能會導致我們整個半導體產業要移去"},{"start":1258.706,"end":1281.513,"text":"美國那我想要請問這些高科技人才轉移的時候你們有沒有一些衝擊的評估然後你要怎麼因應先我們沒有辦法把這個話題展開可是我想要提醒部長其實你這些這些半訊充電再出發有一個很重要背後的政策目的也是希望勞工轉型升級對不對幫助到台灣的產業轉型升級所以你這個應該要一併的同步去討論再來就是說你的"},{"start":1285.954,"end":1308.273,"text":"你的這個辦訓的這些項目是不是符合未來我們這些勞工產業轉型的時候或者產業的需求他的技能有沒有真的符合這些事情然後再來有沒有吸引力告訴他說你們要來上這些課程我覺得這必須要一併的去討論喔因為現在我們的衝擊非常的大除了剛剛的傳統產業接下來就是半導體產業我們也討論到你的短期"},{"start":1315.451,"end":1335.441,"text":"應對到這些高科技人才的轉移他對我們台灣的衝擊會是什麼我們的這個勞動力的政策是什麼我們有沒有可能看遠一點把這個危機你怎麼樣未來要怎麼樣再吸引他們回來或者是在我們的內部怎麼樣讓我們現在既有的勞工要再升級我想這要部長要一併的討論那我今天質詢就到這裡謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時46分）謝謝主席，請洪申翰部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。根據行政院長卓榮泰於10月7號的時候在立法院也證實，目前全國共有398家事業單位實施減班休息，影響人數達到8,505人，其中跟美國關稅相關的是310家，影響也超過7,000人，創一年半以來的新高，也就是說，關稅實施宣布以來的最高點，可以看到這個線圖是非常的陡峭，關稅的海嘯看來已經要來臨了。其中製造業的占比高達95%，主要集中在機械設備的製造廠，大概140家、3,559人、金屬製品的製造業，還有汽車零組件及運輸工具製造業。我想要再問一下勞動部洪部長，目前為止，你要如何評估此波關稅衝擊對於我國勞動市場的實際影響程度？或者更精確地說，未來短期、三個月以內，你們的預估是什麼？中長期，甚至到一年半、一年以內，預估受影響的人會是怎麼樣的情況？還是會如司長所說，他受訪的時候講到的訂單回流趨勢在趨緩當中，我想要請問一下部長，對於這件事情，你的評估？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確現在在關稅衝擊產業或勞工就業的評估，包括學界、包括智庫、包括產業都有很多評估，我們並不是用一份報告的角度來想，而是只要有相關的評估，我們都會去了解其評估的基礎是什麼。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想請問你們怎麼評估低、中、高？其實我一直講，就是你們一定要有一定的評估，不是說不能有誤差，那你的低、中、高，你怎麼判斷？我這樣問的意思是，我大概知道部長等一下一定會說：我們會用最審慎的態度以對。可是我覺得這樣子不夠精確也不夠負責任，我想要知道的是有沒有明確的評估低、中、高，你們認為的低推估、中推估、高推估，因為剛剛有講到你們的報告裡面寫到較上一期平緩，我覺得這的確是讓人家有一種喪事喜辦的感覺。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有，絕對不是。"],["廖委員偉翔：或者是粉飾太平的感覺。"],["洪部長申翰：絕對不是。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我現在要跟你講的是，你的報告裡面寫出來是這樣，讓我們非常憂心你低估了這件事情，因為有許多報告說，真正的影響可能是年底或是明年，甚至是明年一整年，對吧？現在才剛開始，我就想要問，對於勞動部來講，你的評估是什麼？你有沒有去做低、中、高的推估？各自應該怎麼去判斷？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們也看到滿多產業界的評估認為關稅的衝擊可能還會有些延遲，就是說……"],["廖委員偉翔：就是遞延。"],["洪部長申翰：會有些遞延的狀況，所以我想從政府的角度，我們都是去設想相對嚴峻的狀況，我覺得這才是負責任。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長你講對了，但是你這個還是空話，我剛剛說你們有沒有去做精確的推估，因為這個趨勢圖，你一直說你們會看趨勢。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：可是你的回答讓本席認為都沒有真正的聚焦回答出你們究竟有沒有做低、中、高的推估，這個數據到底是什麼呢？因為我剛剛已經預測你的回答了。"],["洪部長申翰：基本上我們會綜合目前產業上面的資訊，也包括智庫、學界的資訊，所以這是為什麼……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，這還是空話，我想問你有沒有推估？你現在推估的數據有沒有一個真正的趨勢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這絕對不是空話，因為我們是請我們的發展署每個禮拜都必須去update……"],["廖委員偉翔：那可不可以請發展署署長回答你們有沒有推估，假設用未來的趨勢圖，有沒有一個不同的走向？你覺得大概會是什麼樣子？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不是用一套推估的方式，因為現在業界或者是智庫相關的推估，或者相關的評估很多，所以我們是綜合這些資訊，然後來做假設相對嚴峻的狀況發生的話，我們有沒有能力應對。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你的嚴峻狀況的假設是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們必須假設嚴峻的狀況是這個數字還會增加。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你覺得增加的是多少？有沒有一個數字？譬如說到年底，你預估多少？到明年初，預估多少？你打算怎麼應對？部長，之所以我要求這件事情是因為所有的政策也有遞延的狀況發生，比如說你現在預備的這個政策，等到真正發生的時候你沒準備好，還要通過很多行政程序的時候，受傷的還是勞工，這就是為什麼我一直說……"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然要準備。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我就是真的很具體的想問部長，因為我們其實已經花了大概5分鐘的時間，你一直不跟我講具體你們推估的狀況是什麼，就算你說你用最嚴峻的情況來看待，那我也覺得很好，部長可以對著大家說，或是在這個質詢的時候說，你預計嚴重的狀況是什麼？會達到多少人？你預估比較嚴重的狀況。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們認為產業影響的狀況不一定是一個數字，但是我們會設想相對嚴峻的狀況，我們都要把它設想進來這樣子的態度跟立場來去規劃相關支持的措施。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，因為你說你們每兩個禮拜公布這個數據嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：之所以要公布數據，第一個是讓社會大眾知道狀況，第二個是要讓大家預測未來可能是什麼狀況，然後好做因應。所以包含部，尤其你是第一線的部會首長，尤其是勞動部，我們已經花了很多時間，你還是不願意回答你們的嚴峻狀況到底是什麼，我很不好意思，因為我覺得這個的確很重要，我很希望部長可以誠實的面對，或者是告訴我你們到底有沒有推估，還是你沒有推估？你如果沒有推估，我可不可以告訴你，你們回去推估三個程度的狀況，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們是持續不斷的評估，甚至最新的這些資訊掌握……"],["廖委員偉翔：因為面對前面質詢的委員，你也說這個要看趨勢，對啊！要看趨勢啊！那你的趨勢到底是什麼？趨勢是往未來走的，現在這個是已經既成的事實，可是你明明也說你們會看趨勢，但你的趨勢是什麼呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然必須去做未來這個數字還會增加的準備，就一個行政部門的角度來說，我們當然必須做這個數字還會增加的準備，當然！"],["廖委員偉翔：當然！對！那你的準備是準備多少嘛？就是說你預估是多少？部長，你不能一直跟我繞，光是一個問題，我就問不出來你到底推估的是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為就業衝擊的狀況，第一波最前面可能像是減班休息，當然狀況不好的時候可能會有失業和解僱。"],["廖委員偉翔：你講的是應對，我現在問你，你預估的是什麼？然後現在的推估到年底……因為我們剛剛一直說你看了各種模型，那你可不可以告訴我你看了哪些模型？有人說比較悲觀、比較樂觀，到年底、到明年是多少？你有沒有做好準備？我們想要知道是這個，然後你的趨勢，你的腦子裡面有沒有想我們可能現在……你剛剛說最嚴峻的狀況，請問最嚴峻的狀況，你認為是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，當然業界裡面相關的評估有些比較樂觀、有些比較沒那麼樂觀。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那你講一下，樂觀和沒那麼樂觀是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：比方說，可能會不會關稅的訂單衝擊會有遞延的狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，這我們剛剛講過了。"],["洪部長申翰：對。我想不一定它是一個數字，我說整個影響衝擊的狀況不一定是一個數字，可是我們都會預先做準備。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想要說，我們今天之所以排這個案，就是擔心未來的衝擊會衝擊勞工的失業更加嚴峻，因為看到現在走勢圖已經變得非常陡峭，可是我很遺憾地說，我今天已經問了8分鐘的時間，部長沒有辦法講出一個到年底你預估可能的狀況，跟明年的狀況可能是怎麼樣，我覺得我非常遺憾，身為勞動部的部長，主責機關怎麼會不能回答這個問題，而且一直避著回答呢？我覺得即便你告訴大家可能很嚴峻，我覺得這對於社會也有一個預期的心態可以去做準備嘛！然後也可以讓人家知道我們部長照著這個嚴峻的狀況做準備，我們可以安心，我們可以告訴大家，勞動部會充分的準備！結果很遺憾，我問了8分鐘，居然講不出來，我甚至說，那你告訴我一個樂觀的、不樂觀的是怎麼樣。部長，我想我質詢的問題應該沒有很咄咄逼人。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，比方說，如果失業的狀況比較多，我們也準備了勞工就業通計畫，勞工就業通計畫就是針對失業勞工如果要轉職的時候，我們來協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：既然你準備了計畫，難道不是有一個根據嗎？就是今天看到這個數據了，你的根據是什麼？你要準備這些計畫的根據是什麼？","好，我跟你說，因為我後面還有很多題目，結果8分鐘以來，我們的部長沒有辦法回答這個問題。","我想要請問勞動部的統計，尤其是這一次大臺中地區成為無薪假最大的重災區，有117家，有2,598人實施無薪假，占全國總數的30.5%，其次是臺南市55家，1,328人，彰化縣是35家，1,135人；基本上，光是大臺中地區，第一名就超過了第二名、第三名的總和，這也反映中部的製造業的確受創最重。我想要為這個部分特別請命，請問這個部分有沒有什麼可以特別因應的措施？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確我們看到中部是現在減班休息裡面通報數字最多的區域，我自己在上週也到中部跟中部很多傳統產業當面溝通跟座談，來了解大家的需求，我們怎麼樣支持大家的需求，所以我們也討論到很多減班休息的問題，要怎麼支持？現在的確有一些產業跟很多勞工對於我們現在的支持措施還不是這麼了解，他們還不是那麼了解，也包括……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以產業的宣傳還不足？"],["洪部長申翰：因為我們有對工會、勞工的宣傳，也有對產業的宣傳。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席有參與過，他們問你們可不可以做一些簡單的圖卡，可不可以更明確告訴他們可以怎麼告訴他們工會的成員？對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：那應該是比較早期，現在其實都有相關的圖卡跟相關計畫的措施，可是最重要的事情是……我們是直接到中部的現場，因為很多產業、企業界的高階主管其實向我們反映了滿多問題，我們也都把這些問題蒐集下來，希望一一協助大家。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛問的問題，具體的方案是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，現在一個很重要去支持大家減班休息的狀況，當然是我們強化版僱用安定措施的薪資差額補貼，我們從過去的五成補貼，現在拉到七成，甚至也可以讓企業來申請我們的再充電計畫，以前再充電計畫跟僱用安定措施是不能併領的，我們這次把它改成可以併領。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，我等一下會繼續問。"],["洪部長申翰：最多是可以領到勞工原本的薪資。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。勞動部在投資青年就業方案裡面，初次尋職青年穩定就業計畫從112年到113年花費超過3億，但是就業比率卻從67%下降至52%，而且其中半數青年於核發尋職津貼後不能夠連續就職滿90天，進而導致青年失業率超過全國平均失業率的兩倍有餘。在薪資層面，勞發署投入了57億經費執行「爭好薪」方案，希望提高青年畢業後的薪資，但是110年到112年的3年期間，青年初次任職領取基本薪資者平均大概是25%的水平，綜合以上，我的意思就是青年面對就業率低、薪資低的情況，勞動部投入大筆經費，成效看起來不是很好。我想要說，綜合關稅的衝擊，這些受影響的產業本來應該可以開缺，成為吸引青年人就業的管道，但是現在要面臨減班休息的狀況，也就自顧不暇，所以他們也不可能開缺。面對青年這個困境，尤其剛剛也說到中部重災區到現在中部青年的困境，部長有沒有想法怎麼改善？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為協助尋職的青年，我覺得這會有兩個部分，第一個，我們希望協助青年進入職場，這是第一段，第二段是希望進入職場的時間能夠持續，就是一個比較穩定狀況的就業。所以委員在這邊看到的狀況是這裡面滿多數據，其實我們是有協助他第一段，有進入到職場，可是的確會有一些青年在職場裡面的穩定性還是有一段落差，所以可能工作了幾個月，比方說一、兩個月，最後又是離職的狀況，我想這部分我們還要再來努力，我們還要再來努力！"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，這部分可不可以再提供給本席辦公室，你們努力改善的檢討報告？"],["洪部長申翰：可以，其實在這次關稅因應裡面，我們也把初次尋職青年穩定就業計畫做了加碼、也做了再強化，也是考慮到這些事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我還是想要講，我其實滿擔心的，因為你說你會檢討這些狀況，可是我就是很擔心連原本預估的衝擊狀態到底多少，好像你都不能表達，所以我要回頭說我的第一個問題，我們剛剛花了8分鐘的那個問題，我也想拜託部長，今天你沒辦法回答出來，可是會後可不可以提供本席辦公室你們預估比較樂觀的情況跟比較悲觀的情況？可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我還是要跟委員說，所謂的預估和評估，它不一定是一個數字，我們會用一個相對嚴峻的情境……"],["廖委員偉翔：不行，如果不是數字的話，剛剛那些圖就沒有任何意義了。我是認為這樣，你們必須要誠實地面對自己的狀況，我們才可以改善，我在這裡沒有要跟你究責這件事，我希望可以在會後給本席辦公室你們自己內部開會……我相信你們一定有討論，請給我你們討論的要如何應對這個嚴峻狀況的相關數字，我們才會回來好好地說你今天提供的這些方案是不是真的可以解決這樣的情況。可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們來看一下怎麼表達。"],["廖委員偉翔：唉！好！因為這跟我接下來要問的這一題有很大的關係，有很多家庭工廠、小型公司，包含雇主，只有5到10人，遠遠不到大量解僱的範圍，等於通報上它可能不會被納入減班休息受影響的計畫，但是這樣的小型工廠在臺灣其實是普遍存在的，請問部長，這樣的黑數你們有統計到嗎？如果沒有統計到，受影響的統計數字是不是也會失真？實際影響的狀況有沒有可能更嚴重？"],["洪部長申翰：確實可能會存在這樣的問題，因為委員所示資料中，劃紅線的部分其實是指歇業的廠商，如果是歇業廠商，它可能就會去做資遣通報；如果是歇業的話，那就是資遣的部分了。"],["廖委員偉翔：這裡有寫「因真正關廠歇業的企業廠商以及失業勞工黑數，遠比通報者還多」。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我的意思是說，因為這一條紅線劃的是關廠歇業，它不只是訂單減少而已，所以可能就會是在資遣通報的狀況下。"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛講的失業不也是相關數據嗎？就是我們剛剛討論的失業數據跟這個……"],["洪部長申翰：目前整體……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以有沒有可能有統計？因為之前好像有報導提到，你說也可能有黑數的問題。"],["洪部長申翰：就是可能的確會有一些企業有減班休息，但是它沒有通報，當然有這個狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，再來就是剛剛有講到，你們在「因應美國對等關稅政策支持勞工安定就業推動要點」裡面規劃了六大工作，其中一個是「維持僱用安定」，這部分你們之前是先開放了3個業別的申請。7月份的時候，本席在質詢中要求未來要擴大適用的產業，你當時也有承諾說會擴大。目前為止，你們的確增加到9個業別，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實受影響的傳統產業還有不少被遺漏的，包含鋼鐵、水泥、造紙、建材營造、玻璃陶瓷或者是化工業，我想也遠遠不只這9個業別，所以部長對這個部分還有沒有相關的評估？有沒有要納入或者是沒有納入的原因？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，相關行業別很重要的一個部分是它的來源是經濟部，因為經濟部對產業動態有一個產業主管機關的部門在負責這個事情，所以我們對公告的業別其實一直在滾動地檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以看到實際狀況你們還會再擴大，而不是只根據經濟部的分析，你們勞動部自己也會主動調查？"],["洪部長申翰：我們自己會主動地滾動檢視，當然也會跟經濟部討論。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我們希望你們繼續就相關業別滾動、及時地反應，像我剛剛提到的這些業別應該也是受衝擊的產業，可以請你們回去針對這些業別再做評估嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們當然都會來掌握。"],["廖委員偉翔：接下來就是勞動部將減班休息的薪資差額補貼從五成提高到七成、最長6個月，雖然有提升，但是吸引力不高，最終政策成效不佳的結果也反映出來了。根據媒體報導，你們剛剛說目前「充電再出發訓練」以及「勞工再充電」計畫的參與率僅有6%，成效不彰，這也呼應了本席的評估。請問你們要怎麼提高勞工參訓的意願？是不是要進一步考慮放寬申請條件或提高補助額度？還是你們認為僅是宣傳不佳而已？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，你剛剛講的薪資差額補貼和充電再出發是兩個不同的計畫……"],["廖委員偉翔：執行率都不佳啊！"],["洪部長申翰：現在參與「充電再出發」的人數確實比較低，這有幾個原因，我們內部也做了檢討，第一個當然是宣傳的部分，所以有很多工會跟我們說希望我們擴大宣傳，包括宣傳的資源，真的很多工會都跟我們講這個事情，所以真的也要請大院支持我們相關的宣傳經費，這是第一個。第二個是的確有一些企業說他們正處在一個比較辛苦的狀況，現在可能不一定有辦法自己來辦訓，因為充電再出發計畫是勞工參與訓練，如果企業辦訓的話，我們會給企業辦訓的補貼，勞工則可以領參訓的津貼，所以它的前提是要有參訓這件事情，但確實會有一些企業說，這個階段它很辛苦，所以不一定那麼有能力辦訓。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，針對這個部分，第一是你們要去檢討執行率的差別，瞭解為什麼執行率這麼低，這是短期的部分，可是後面本席其實還有另外兩個題目，但是時間有限。其實現在產業轉型也有很大的問題，對吧？除了產業轉型是一個問題，再來是短期方面我也想講到評估，比如說現在臺美的關係，他們說晶片50、50，它可能會導致我們整個半導體產業要移去美國。我想要請問，這些高科技人才轉移的話，你們有沒有做一些衝擊評估？你們要怎麼因應？","雖然今天沒辦法把這個話題展開，可是我想要提醒部長，其實你這些辦訓、充電再出發，背後有一個很重要的政策目的，就是希望勞工能夠轉型升級，同時也幫助臺灣的產業轉型升級，對不對？所以這些應該要一併同步去討論。再來就是你們辦訓的這些項目是不是符合未來勞工或產業轉型的需求？他們的技能是否真的符合相關要求？有沒有吸引力讓他們知道自己要來上這些課程？我覺得這些必須一併討論。因為我們現在受到的衝擊非常大，除了剛剛講的傳統產業，接下來就是半導體產業，我們也討論到，短期之內，應對到這些高科技人才轉移對我們臺灣的衝擊會是什麼？我們的勞動力政策是什麼？我們有沒有可能看遠一點，度過這個危機之後，未來要怎麼樣再把他們吸引回來，或者是在我們的內部怎麼樣讓現在既有的勞工再升級？這些部長都要一併討論。","我今天的質詢就到這裡，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員，也謝謝洪部長。","接下來請王正旭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb6273c4b370c83c9461819c05f3ca7f3b919ebc85139e6d204f5639f62fdc189b545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:34:29 - 09:46:11","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T09:34:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T09:46:11+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":5.0934687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":35.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.77221875,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.97471875,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.92721875,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.49596875,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.79534375,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.423468750000005,"end":54.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.97471875,"end":65.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.244718750000004,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.83096875000001,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.03721875000001,"end":71.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.93534375,"end":77.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.58034375000001,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.53721875000001,"end":82.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.66784375,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.43534375,"end":86.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.34659375000001,"end":86.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.85284375,"end":88.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.37971875000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.64534375000001,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.48471875,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.22721875,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.59409375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.89284375000001,"end":142.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.14034375000001,"end":111.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.63346875,"end":114.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.32534375,"end":114.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.28284375,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.02909375000002,"end":147.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.76721875,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.44159375,"end":155.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.47534375,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.92221875,"end":156.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.39846875,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.21221875,"end":175.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":190.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.33971875,"end":184.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.66784375,"end":197.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.73846875,"end":198.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.63284375,"end":203.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.37471875,"end":203.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.96534375000002,"end":241.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.66784375,"end":217.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.75284375,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.74971875,"end":275.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.12284375,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.03346875,"end":302.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.44346875,"end":303.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.96659375,"end":337.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.57409375000003,"end":304.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.76721875000004,"end":356.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.37596875,"end":357.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.96659375,"end":364.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.27784375000005,"end":364.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.29471875,"end":370.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.01534375,"end":379.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.09034375000005,"end":377.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.68909375000004,"end":378.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.29659375,"end":379.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.83659375,"end":379.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.95471875000004,"end":380.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.02221875000004,"end":384.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.25784375,"end":386.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.19846875,"end":393.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.23221875,"end":386.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.97784375000003,"end":418.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.13034375,"end":433.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.51159375000003,"end":435.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.69721875000005,"end":439.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.59096875,"end":452.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.77034375000005,"end":466.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.42221875,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.22284375000004,"end":473.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.89784375000005,"end":480.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.27659375,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.03534375000004,"end":491.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.75159375000004,"end":491.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.97096875000005,"end":498.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.19784375,"end":498.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.73784375,"end":516.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.24596875,"end":528.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.29159375,"end":519.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.7709687500001,"end":530.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.58096875,"end":530.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.8172187499999,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.96909375,"end":531.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.0365937500001,"end":531.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3403437500001,"end":532.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.3572187500001,"end":533.4834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.07846875,"end":533.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.4834687499999,"end":534.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.0234687500001,"end":534.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.96846875,"end":535.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.0359687499999,"end":542.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.6940937500001,"end":538.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.96721875,"end":546.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.9665937500001,"end":547.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.02971875,"end":553.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.8515937500001,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.03721875,"end":554.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.1384687500001,"end":554.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.4084687500001,"end":555.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.03284375,"end":555.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.6572187500001,"end":556.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.7078437499999,"end":563.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.48721875,"end":563.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.6728437500001,"end":563.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.9765937500001,"end":571.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.48596875,"end":577.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.0209687500001,"end":577.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.0672187499999,"end":585.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.98159375,"end":590.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.5209687500001,"end":598.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.5365937500001,"end":598.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.05971875,"end":605.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.07659375,"end":600.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.98284375,"end":606.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.0290937500001,"end":608.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.2778437500001,"end":607.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.59409375,"end":617.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.3647187500001,"end":624.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.9040937500001,"end":647.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.0590937500001,"end":634.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.13659375,"end":652.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.15346875,"end":648.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.94159375,"end":659.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.9584687500001,"end":655.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.94471875,"end":672.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.0459687500002,"end":662.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.00284375,"end":666.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.3984687500001,"end":679.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.33409375,"end":684.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.14346875,"end":685.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.2278437500001,"end":688.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.0334687500001,"end":689.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.01596875,"end":690.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.06659375,"end":691.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.57659375,"end":694.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.7453437500001,"end":693.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.02721875,"end":700.6809687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.706,"end":3.875,"text":"我們有請我們洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":8.493,"end":35.045,"text":"邱委員早部長好部長我請問勞動部在我們10月1日的時候公布最新的這個減班休息統計那全國共有398家企業8505名勞工比9月中旬再增加了65家1171人可是我看到你們報告裡面在寫較前期平緩一些我不知道我想請教一下就是我們這平緩的意思是什麼"},{"start":36.005,"end":62.304,"text":"因為前一期9月16號的時候那一天那一次的公佈是增加2471人那在10月1號的時候人數是增加1171人那我們這個因為是慢慢往上漲嗎人數還是增加的但是增加的數字比前一次公佈來的少一些可是他的整個數字看起來是那一個月增加了3000多人"},{"start":63.044,"end":71.262,"text":"对所以他比上一个月来讲所以我的意思说我们跟前一期比较的话的确他增加的人数你看这个图是你们画的嘛"},{"start":72.014,"end":95.155,"text":"對不對 你看那個線 這個怎麼會覺得會平緩呢所以我覺得很奇怪啊那個 秋遠 如果可以仔細看我們那個寫的句子如果前一張投影片 你是指前一次嘛對不對 跟前一期9月16號的發佈來比較 到了這個9月底嘛那一次是增加2400 那因為這一次增加是1100你看那個線也看起來很陡耶 怎麼會平緩 走路會跌倒耶"},{"start":96.553,"end":112.964,"text":"我們不會因為這個數字的起伏而放鬆我其實沒有要指責什麼意思啊我只是說有時候用詞啊這有點讓人家覺得說你這個是在粉飾太平沒有我們絕對沒有要粉飾太平所以因為我們看到這個"},{"start":113.504,"end":138.324,"text":"絕對沒有粉飾太平這個已經已經從你這個來看就是從全國無薪加是245家4863人9月底變成398家8505人這個數字一個月呢增加了3600多人那增幅高達75%所以當然我們從4月份來看它的整個是非常明顯的那整個來看它沒有一個月是下降的這個確實說我們應該要多注意一下這個狀況那這個"},{"start":143.359,"end":162.006,"text":"部長你認為這個還會往上漲嗎我覺得這都要從趨勢來看那我覺得我們要有目前您看這樣子我們關稅的影響狀況已經達到高峰了沒有我自己是認為我們其實都要"},{"start":163.291,"end":189.833,"text":"我們都不應該去預設最好的狀況是怎樣一個行政部門的角度來說我們一定是預設如果狀況還會惡化那我們的因應措施能不能夠讓勞工或讓企業得到幫助我們應該都是要從這個角度我也看到了你們在報告裡面寫到從4月9號到10月1號我們勞動力發展署已經仿視了20619家這點我當然給你們肯定只是說那我想請問一下就是說有多少家"},{"start":190.774,"end":195.793,"text":"目前是正在實施減班或休息的又有多少家未來有可能會走向這個無薪"},{"start":197.828,"end":223.402,"text":"有沒有評估過跟委員說明現在實施減半休息總共是398大概快400家那我們的確現在看到在這些實施減半休息加速裡面比較集中在幾個行業那大概幾個我們在報告裡面有提到包括像金屬製品製造那機械設備製造業然後也包括這個其他運輸工具"},{"start":224.122,"end":241.552,"text":"那也包括像這個汽車零組件那這幾個行業是現在看到減慢休息比較集中的行業對 所以我們也針對這幾個行業也去做特別的關心也掌握他們行業內現在一些變化的動態那這也要很謝謝我們發展署各地分署的同仁"},{"start":242.192,"end":260.485,"text":"我希望就是說你們在這個過程當中不要只是為了這個達成這個數字而去做這件事情不是說我看了多少家應該是我們期待看到說我們幫多少家企業解決了問題協助到了多少家企業這才是我們仿似的目的嘛 對不對"},{"start":260.785,"end":274.659,"text":"跟文說明剛才講我們講到幾個減班休息比較多的行業其實現在我們都有放到我們這個強化版安定措施的行業別裡面也就是現在這些比較多的減班休息的企業其實"},{"start":276.435,"end":300.348,"text":"只要他們有來通報那我們都可以有相關的薪資差額補貼給他們我看到你們在報告裡面講到有76.3293家企業適用這個雇用安定基金的措施那有83.6%大概7106位的勞工可以申請這個薪資差額補貼那我請問一下這個有在領了嗎有有多少人領"},{"start":303.49,"end":320.035,"text":"目前來申請的目前在有申請資格跟我說明目前有申請資格然後有來申請的大概快接近一半那另外一半現在我們因為每個來跟我們通報的我們都會去了解"},{"start":320.795,"end":337.038,"text":"那還有一半是因為他可能還因為我們的規定是要30天後減慢休息30天後才能來有的是30天還沒到那或者是有些還在補件那也有一些企業他是說他們可能想要三個月來申請一次就是所以可能會有延後來申請的狀況"},{"start":337.819,"end":356.034,"text":"好 我希望不要說這個措施這個既然做了我們這些企業都沒有得到幫助那我再問一個就是說我發現你們在報告裡面講了有105家不適用這個雇用安定措施的廠商是什麼原因讓他們不適用"},{"start":357.435,"end":380.96,"text":"因為其實我們這個強化版的公安徑措施比較是針對國際的經貿情勢的不確定所以它跟經貿沒有關係的就不受這個因為就不用協助就對了應該是說我們這個強化版公安措施其實是比較是針對關稅或者國際經貿情勢所影響的嘛 對不對那的確有一些企業它實時減慢休息的原因它是直接影響還是間接影響這個你們這個怎麼區分呢"},{"start":384.902,"end":405.883,"text":"相關的影響當然我們都是因為他可能他的產業他的工作他只是做人的下游廠商嘛對不對他並沒有直接影響那這樣的適用嗎我們不是用我們不是用上下游來想我們是用行業別來框定那我們現在有公告了九個行業這九個行業當然很大部分是經濟部來跟我們說就是說"},{"start":406.964,"end":433.59,"text":"哪些行業目前因為我們這個關稅的稅率或國際情勢相比於其他國家那包括它供應鏈的分佈的狀態它會受到影響那經營部來跟我們說它會受到影響我們就把它放入行業鏈裡面不啦 我希望這樣啦就是說像這些沒有辦法列入的這些企業我們是不是更要進一步瞭解它是不是真的真的不是因為這個影響因為這個有些會還是會有一些你用行業別來列還是會有一些盲點好不好"},{"start":434.554,"end":449.104,"text":"好 我們當然會持續的檢視是不是這個行業比較在擴大我們其實都在滾動的檢討好 那另外我看到你們那個因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算裡面我們勞動部總共拿到250億那就是"},{"start":452.853,"end":472.87,"text":"我們的目的就是要穩就業防關稅的衝擊是吧是可是我看到你們裡面有100億是拿去撥補勞保基金我想請問這個跟這個因應國際情勢有什麼關係呃跟我們說明這是兩個部分我們其實原本在行政院在那為什麼不在本預算裡面提呢"},{"start":474.011,"end":491.114,"text":"我們在行政院編列的過程裡面其實本來就是有150億其實是針對這個關稅的情勢的安定就業那有100億是勞保基金的撥補對啊這個跟這個特別預算特別預算放這個撥補勞保基金不是有點怪嗎"},{"start":492.955,"end":517.361,"text":"跟委員說明我們當然在公務預算裡面明年的公務預算裡面其實有撥補1200億那當然為什麼還在100億其實我們政府其實對於勞保勞保的水位的支持是我們持續性的不斷的在檢視所以當然我們現在在稅計剩餘下我們認為有一點空間可以再多給勞工的勞保多一點安定跟穩定但是我覺得那你在編預算的時候你1200億不然你就編1300嘛"},{"start":519.341,"end":524.193,"text":"你怎麼會在這邊用這個國安任性特別預算裡面來這個讓我們覺得這有點趁火打劫"},{"start":529.87,"end":556.547,"text":"委員 這都是 兩個都不同的事情委員 這都是支持勞工的經費給勞工的經費絕對不是趁火打錢 這是兩件事喔一個是勞退喔 勞保基金喔那一個是因應國際情勢 這不太一樣嘛委員 因應國際情勢是151那勞保的撥補是100億這兩件事情不是同一個事情 對啊那我們當然這次 那好 那我簡單問你"},{"start":557.688,"end":576.462,"text":"那這100億裡面有多少錢是進到這些減半倍降薪的勞工口袋裡面沒有 委員還是要說這是兩件事情我們在因應國際情勢是150億那另外100億是勞保的撥補那之前包括也有用特別預算來去做勞保撥補這是我們的財政狀況跟稅劑剩餘"},{"start":578.163,"end":598.298,"text":"如果國家的財政狀況稅計算有一點餘裕的話我想這代表是勞工政府對於勞保財務的一種支持對啦 勞保財務是長期性的問題啦那每年都在撥補的嘛我希望就事論是這個每一件事情我不希望在你夾雜在這個特別預算裡面就很怪啊"},{"start":600.14,"end":617.253,"text":"委員這不是夾雜特別預算這是我們是我們財政的狀況稅計剩餘的狀況所以你現在覺得財政狀況很好不是不是財政狀況當然因為財化法修法可是今年的稅計剩餘的確有一點空間那我們就認為應該把這一點空間拿來支持勞工跟勞保"},{"start":618.427,"end":631.293,"text":"我們是站在一個希望只要能夠多支持勞工一點 多支持勞保一點我們就願意多做一點就是因為剛好國際情勢那這樣子看起來我們政府覺得國際情勢越亂越好啊這樣你們才可以趕快來編補 趕快多弄點錢這個時候我們大家當然就知道產業受到衝擊我們需要一些經費來支持"},{"start":640.237,"end":659.134,"text":"那可是你不能說看到立法院好像要給錢了然後我們這些部門趕快你們自己沒不夠的趕快補一補 趕快寫一寫委員 這個錢不是叫立法院給錢這個錢國家的財政是來自於稅收跟稅金對 沒錯啊 但是還是要立法院通過嘛 對不對立法院願意給了嘛 願意給了那當然不會擋嘛"},{"start":660.035,"end":683.655,"text":"我們希望盡力爭取立法院的支持我們當然是不會去擋這種什麼特別預算而且是因應國際情勢這個變化的錢只是說我希望說這筆錢一歸一 二歸二就希望把它弄清楚好不好那個跟文說明其實朝野的委員也都希望我們在撥補這部分只要能夠多做的都希望能夠多做一些這不一樣的事情啦當然你如果多做在勞工我全力支持"},{"start":684.395,"end":693.744,"text":"這當然都做在勞工勞保撥補當然都是用在勞工身上的你怎麼那麼愛變咧對不對 好好講不聽不要講了啦 不要講好 謝謝邱振軍委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":130,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時34分）有請我們洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員早。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，我請問勞動部在10月1日的時候公布最新的減班休息統計，全國共有398家企業、8,505名勞工，比9月中旬再增加了65家、1,171人，可是我看到你們報告裡面有寫較前期平緩一些，我不知道，我想請教一下，你們這平緩的意思是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：因為前一期9月16日的時候，那次的公布是增加2,471人，在10月1日的時候，人數是增加1,171人，我們因為這一千……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是慢慢往上漲嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：人數還是增加的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，那平緩的意思是……"],["洪部長申翰：但是增加的數字比前一次公布的來得少一些。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是這整個數字看起來是那一個月增加了三千多人。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：比上一個月來講。"],["洪部長申翰：所以我的意思是我們跟前一期比較的話，的確它增加的人數有平緩一些。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你看簡報上這個圖是你們畫的嘛，對不對？你看那個趨勢線，怎麼會覺得是平緩呢？所以我覺得很奇怪。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員，如果可以仔細看我們寫的那個句子，前一張投影片……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你是指前一次嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：跟前一期在9月16日的發布那天數據來比較……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是9月底嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：那次是增加2,400人，因為這次增加是1,100人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你看那個趨勢線看起來很陡，怎麼會平緩？這走路會跌倒耶！"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然……邱委員，我們不會因為這個數字的起伏而放鬆，我們全力戒備在這件事情上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！我其實沒有要指責什麼意思，我只是說有時候用詞有點讓人家覺得你們是在粉飾太平的感覺。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有，我們絕對沒有要粉飾太平。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們看到這個，從全國無薪假是245家、4,863人，9月底變成398家、8,505人，這個數字在一個月增加了三千六百多人，增幅高達75%，我們從4月份來看，它整個是非常明顯的，整體來看沒有一個月是下降的，確實你們應該要多注意一下這個狀況。部長，你認為這個還會往上漲嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得這都要從趨勢來看，我覺得我們還會增加的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前你看我們關稅的影響狀況已經達到高峰了沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：我自己是認為我們都不應該去預設最好的狀況是怎樣，一個行政部門的角度來說，我們一定是預設如果狀況還會惡化，我們的因應措施能不能夠讓勞工或讓企業得到幫助，我們應該都要從這角度來想。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我也看到了你們這報告裡面寫到，從4月9日到10月1日，你們勞動力發展署已經訪視了2萬619家。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這點我當然給你們肯定。我想請問一下，有多少家目前是正在實施減班或休息的？又有多少家未來有可能會走向無薪假？有沒有評估過？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在實施減班休息總共是398家，快400家嘛！我們的確現在看到在這些實施減班休息家數裡，比較集中在幾個行業啦！大概有幾個，我們在報告裡有提到，包括像金屬製品製造、機械設備製造業，也包括其他運輸工具、汽車零組件，這幾個行業是現在看到減班休息比較集中的行業。所以我們也針對這幾個行業去做特別的關心，也掌握他們行業內現在變化的動態，這也要很謝謝我們發展署各地分署的同仁。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然我希望啦！就是你們在這個過程當中，不要只是為了達成那個數字而去做這件事情，不是說你們看了多少家，應該是我們期待看到你們幫多少家企業解決了問題，協助到了多少家企業，這才是你們訪視的目的嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，剛才我們講到幾個減班休息比較多的行業，其實現在我們都有放到強化版僱用安定措施的行業別裡面，也就是現在這些比較多減班休息的企業，只要他們有來通報，我們都可以有相關的薪資差額補貼給他們。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們在報告裡講到有76.3%、293家企業是用僱用安定基金的措施嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有83.6%，大概7,106位的勞工可以申請薪資差額補貼。我請問一下，這個有在領了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有多少人領？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，目前有申請資格有來申請的，大概快接近一半。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有一半了。"],["洪部長申翰：因為每個來跟我們通報的，我們都會去了解，還有一半是因為我們的規定是要減班休息30天後才能來申請，有的是30天還沒到，或者是有些還在補件，也有一些企業是說他們可能想要3個月來申請一次，就是可能會有延後來申請的狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望不要這個措施既然做了，這些企業都沒有得到幫助。我再問一個，我發現你們在報告裡面講到有105家不適用僱用安定措施的廠商，是什麼原因讓他們不適用？"],["洪部長申翰：因為我們這個強化版的僱用安定措施比較是針對國際經貿情勢的不確定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他們跟經貿沒有關係的，就不用協助就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說，我們這個強化版的僱用安定措施是比較針對關稅或者國際經貿情勢所影響的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所影響的嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：的確有一些企業實施減班休息的原因，他們可能是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：直接影響還是間接影響，這部分你們怎麼區分？"],["洪部長申翰：相關的影響，當然我們都是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，因為可能他的產業只是這些的下游廠商嘛，對不對？他並沒有直接影響，這樣的適用嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不是用上下游來想，我們是用行業別來匡定，現在有公告了9個行業，這9個行業當然有大部分是經濟部來跟我們說，就是哪些行業目前因為關稅的稅率或國際情勢相比於其他國家，包括他供應鏈分布的狀態，他會受到影響。由經濟部來跟我們說他會受到影響，我們就把他放到行業別裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我希望這樣啦！像沒有辦法列入的這些企業，你們是不是更要進一步了解他們是不是真的不是因為受這個影響？因為你們用行業別來列，還是會有一些盲點，好不好？去了解一下。"],["洪部長申翰：好，我們當然會持續的檢視啦！是不是這個行業別要再擴大，我們其實都在滾動的檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外我看到你們因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算裡面，勞動部總共拿到250億，我們的目的就是要穩就業、防關稅的衝擊，是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是我看到你們裡面有100億是拿去撥補勞保基金，我想請問這個跟因應國際情勢有什麼關係？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這是兩個部分，我們其實原本在行政院……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼不在本預算裡面提呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們在行政院編列的過程裡面，其實本來就是有150億是針對關稅情勢的安定就業，有100億是勞保基金的撥補。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，在特別預算放撥補勞保基金不是有點怪嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們當然在公務預算裡面，明年的公務預算裡面其實有撥補1,200億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，為什麼還要再100億？"],["洪部長申翰：其實政府對於勞保水位的支持是持續性的、不斷地在檢視，所以現在在歲計賸餘下，我們認為有一點空間可以再給勞工的勞保多一點安定跟穩定，我們就加了100億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我覺得你在編預算的時候編了1,200億，不然你就編1,300億嘛，你怎麼會在這邊用這個國安韌性特別預算來處理呢？讓我們覺得這有點趁火打劫。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這都是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：兩個是不同的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這都是支持勞工的經費。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那不是支持……"],["洪部長申翰：給勞工的經費，絕對不是趁火打劫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是兩件事哦！一個是勞保基金，一個是因應國際情勢，這不太一樣嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，因應國際情勢是150億，勞保的撥補是100億，這兩件事情不是同一個事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然這一次……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我簡單問你，這100億裡面有多少錢是進到這些減班被降薪的勞工口袋裡面？沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我還是要說，這是兩件事情。我們在因應國際情勢是150億，另外100億是勞保的撥補，之前也有用特別預算去做勞保撥補，這是視我們的財政狀況跟歲計賸餘，如果國家的財政狀況、歲計賸餘有一點餘裕的話，我想這代表的是政府對於勞保財務的一種支持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，勞保財務是長期性的問題，每年都在撥補嘛，我希望就事論事，每一件事情，我不希望你夾雜在這個特別預算裡面，這就很怪啊！這個解釋不通嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這不是夾雜特別預算，這是我們視我們財政的狀況、歲計賸餘的狀況……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你現在覺得財政狀況很好？"],["洪部長申翰：不是、不是，委員，財政狀況的部分當然因為財劃法修法，可是今年的歲計賸餘的確有一點空間，我們就認為應該把這點空間拿來支持勞工跟勞保，我們是站在一個只要能夠多支持勞工一點、多支持勞保一點我們就多做一點的態度。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為剛好國際情勢如此，那這樣看起來，我們政府會覺得國際情勢越亂越好，這樣你們才可以巧立名目，趕快來編補、趕快多弄點錢。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，絕對不是這樣子，委員，絕對不是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個時候大家當然都知道產業受到衝擊，我們需要一些經費來支持，可是你不能說看到立法院好像要給錢了，然後這些部門自己有不夠的就趕快補一補、趕快寫一寫。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這個錢不是立法院給錢，這個錢，國家的財政是來自於稅收跟歲計賸餘……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，沒錯，但是還是要立法院通過，對不對？立法院願意給了，那當然不會擋嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望盡力爭取立法院的支持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們當然不會去擋這種特別預算，而且是因應國際情勢變化的錢，只是說我希望這筆錢一歸一、二歸二，希望把它弄清楚，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實朝野委員也都希望我們再撥補這部分，只要能夠多做的都希望能夠多做一些。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是不一樣的事情啊！當然你如果都做在勞工，我全力支持，百分之百支持。"],["洪部長申翰：這當然都做在勞工，勞保撥補當然都是用在勞工身上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那是不一樣的東西，你怎麼那麼愛辯？好好講不聽！"],["洪部長申翰：委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要講了。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言。"],["主席（邱委員鎮軍代）：接下來請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163972","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62204606390c7b2e41119d4e8153da54ef9ebc85139e6d204ff0c96e57ae1e2db35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:50:17 - 10:01:24","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T09:50:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T10:01:24+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.662218750000001,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.31159375,"end":24.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.05659375,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.621593750000002,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.304718750000003,"end":33.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.79784375,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.00034375,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.11409375,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.42534375,"end":45.711593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.12534375,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.17159375,"end":55.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.14471875,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.182218750000004,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.346593750000004,"end":65.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.31596875000001,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.23096875,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.02409375,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.06534375000001,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.97659375,"end":78.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.01034375,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.65534375,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.82784375,"end":84.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.94596875,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.19909375,"end":85.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.28221875000001,"end":96.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.95596875000001,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.40846875000001,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.60034375,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.10596875000002,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.63284375,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.42034375,"end":163.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.97159375,"end":168.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.40534375000001,"end":177.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.39971875,"end":184.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.25096875,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.93346875,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.42471875,"end":207.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.35284375,"end":208.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.36971875,"end":254.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.47409375,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.86034375000003,"end":255.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.97409375,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.18784375,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.21596875,"end":275.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.46034375,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.02784375000005,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.80409375,"end":290.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.87159375000005,"end":290.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.42846875000004,"end":291.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.44534375,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.01971875000004,"end":319.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.50846875,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.02721875000003,"end":324.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.91721875,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.80721875,"end":324.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.87471875,"end":324.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.41471875,"end":328.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.41846875000005,"end":332.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.48596875000004,"end":328.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.04221875,"end":335.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.21471875000003,"end":338.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.81346875,"end":341.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.86784375,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.10596875000005,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.02534375000005,"end":360.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.24471875,"end":360.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.26159375000003,"end":360.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.27846875,"end":360.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.31221875,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.36284375,"end":361.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.03346875,"end":363.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.53534375000004,"end":370.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.56909375000004,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.81784375,"end":364.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.97721875,"end":396.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.15034375000005,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.08221875000004,"end":422.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.65096875,"end":406.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.06284375,"end":417.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.70409375,"end":419.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.83409375,"end":423.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.99846875000003,"end":426.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.66471875,"end":430.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.76534375,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.11096875000004,"end":437.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.80221875,"end":444.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.53096875000006,"end":455.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.92596875000004,"end":463.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":463.70534375000005,"end":466.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.47284375000004,"end":467.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.29534375000003,"end":472.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.42971875,"end":473.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.79659375000006,"end":478.40346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.52159375,"end":479.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.72409375,"end":478.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.02784375000005,"end":479.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.07846875,"end":479.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.19659375000003,"end":479.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.26409375000003,"end":479.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.31471875000005,"end":479.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.50034375,"end":482.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.76159375000003,"end":489.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.84909375,"end":489.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.91221875,"end":498.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.83909375,"end":500.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.50971875000005,"end":503.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.95221875000004,"end":508.32284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.89659375,"end":511.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.93409375000005,"end":511.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.96784375000004,"end":512.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.03534375,"end":515.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.78159375,"end":515.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.91659375,"end":516.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.98409375,"end":527.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.5478437500001,"end":528.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.9778437500001,"end":531.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.3997187500001,"end":529.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.3022187500001,"end":541.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.1584687500001,"end":534.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.37784375,"end":534.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.66784375,"end":541.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.0053437500001,"end":556.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.5515937499999,"end":566.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.69346875,"end":573.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.47284375,"end":582.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.5859687500001,"end":579.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.35784375,"end":581.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.5390937500001,"end":582.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":582.74159375,"end":586.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.3528437500001,"end":587.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":587.0278437500001,"end":601.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":601.3547187500001,"end":610.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.9397187500001,"end":611.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.9184687500001,"end":612.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":612.2222187500001,"end":612.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.9140937500001,"end":615.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.52971875,"end":624.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.5078437500001,"end":620.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.59221875,"end":621.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.8915937500001,"end":622.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.2878437500001,"end":624.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.79409375,"end":628.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":625.50284375,"end":626.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.84409375,"end":643.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.66221875,"end":631.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.64346875,"end":645.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":643.7109687500001,"end":656.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.01284375,"end":664.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":658.94909375,"end":659.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":662.05409375,"end":662.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.55971875,"end":667.2178437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.623,"end":12.084,"text":"我希望委員們能夠在一定的他的問題"},{"start":43.225,"end":65.472,"text":"我會跟委員們再個別的拜託因為要請大家要能夠遵守時間畢竟因為剛開始這個規則也許大家還不是那麼的清楚不會啊 妳第一天都講得很清楚了是 謝謝王委員 您有在聽我所說的規則很感謝妳以後如果要這樣 部委的計時器都拐掉沒意思嘛"},{"start":66.42,"end":81.273,"text":"要自己說8加2 說阿威阿威阿威阿威要20分錢 大家都很多話要說錯在我啦 他有站起來制止我是我硬要講啦 錯在我不要為難主席我不會去說你啦 你主席第一天自己雙心壯志"},{"start":81.914,"end":92.906,"text":"那我從現在開始我就會嚴格執行最多十分鐘那就麻煩王委員請開始我承認我之前可能處理的方式不是很妥當麻煩王委員請先開始我們請考選部長"},{"start":103.118,"end":119.428,"text":"部長好 我跟你反映一件事情也在你們的報告裡頭就是說現在考公務員因為大部分來自大學 校園畢業的學生你們有去跟大學討論課程地圖跟報考的關係"},{"start":122.489,"end":143.564,"text":"那現在發生一些問題就是說很多私立學校因為科系整併的關係那他可能兩個系併成一個系所以他的科系的名字就改了那名字改就有可能影響報考資格嘛 這個沒有錯嘛好 譬如說他要考土木類科"},{"start":144.907,"end":168.535,"text":"那他這個原來譬如說是土木工程學系什麼營建什麼系可以考類似這樣可是因為他合併以後他就可能這個科系的名字不對了跟你們原來不一樣那第二個你們當然有一個補救方法就是說那他如果大學修過哪些課至少修過多少什麼課也可以報考"},{"start":169.468,"end":189.143,"text":"那就會發生很多學校的課程委員 各系的課程委員沒有去關心這些事情就像那個大學生他畢業以後 他決定要去考公務員的時候他就發現說 我不可以課 不可以課他又回頭去跟原來的系長說 我想要課 我不可以課"},{"start":192.174,"end":205.167,"text":"結果這個系他可能就發一個公文到考選部去請考選部研議就是說我們這個大學某某系可不可以讓我們在你們的清單裡頭這個事情現在怎麼解決"},{"start":208.39,"end":224.526,"text":"跟委員報告如果是我想委員講的問題沒有錯就是如果是個案的話我們現在大概是回到我們的審議或者是說這邊解決但是可能比較徹底的解決就是我們現在正在跟各個大學去對"},{"start":225.646,"end":253.833,"text":"說在過去教職部委員所說你過去課程委員會可能一直改結果你都不知道說自己的戲名可能跟我們那已經偏差掉了或者是說你裡面可以考的那一科我們對出來其實現在有的學校譬如說五科有四科一科不見了然後六科有四科兩科不見了那我們現在已經對過了幾個學校像東吳 成大然後我們希望接下來我們那技術是剛發展出來我們希望接下來就是說逐步的擴大去跟所有的學校"},{"start":254.929,"end":273.001,"text":"要把這個對一次好 這個要趕快做不然有一些人 剛剛就說考的人很少他不是考的人很少 是因為他想考可是他沒辦法那邏輯上來說 他就不是念這個科系可是他 如果你讓他考 他考得過對不對 他可能自學嘛"},{"start":276.553,"end":278.015,"text":"那培養了第二專長或者去補習班補習那他考得過我比原科系的可能考得更好那考選部對這樣的學生就這樣的考生你們有什麼看法"},{"start":291.819,"end":318.618,"text":"目前我們是分為行政類課 技術類課行政類課比較沒有問題 大部分科系這樣委員說的問題會發生在技術類課那的確依現在的法制如果它沒有 它不在那個科系可是它是可以修一定的課程就可以來考特別技術類課不過這邊的問題就是委員剛所說的如果要畢業就沒有辦法回頭修所以我們還是盡快的去協助各個學校好 那它沒辦法修可不可以讓各大學的推廣教育開課"},{"start":320.3,"end":329.269,"text":"應該是我記得應該是可以可以嗎對這個有沒有限制他只要並沒有限制他只要對過我知道是可以我就說他"},{"start":330.151,"end":356.417,"text":"假設他原來大學念法律他現在準備來考土木技術然後他就去補習然後補習也沒有用因為補習只是繳錢於是他去某某大學的這個土木系的推廣教育然後他就去修了這些課也拿到了這些學分推廣教育的學分這些你們都認在他大學有修過這些課嗎只要是大學"},{"start":359.059,"end":366.482,"text":"的課程就承認那現在開的狀況怎麼樣這個我們可能要回去再清查一下因為我們現在科系的名稱越來越長就會發生這個名稱越來越長就是就是涵蓋範圍越來越廣學的越來越少最後他要參加國家考試後說我們這個學生名字這麼長結果一堆下去 我不能考這個事情我現在發現這個很嚴重因為我以前在學校當系主任"},{"start":385.988,"end":389.732,"text":"就會有學生跑回來說 主任你把我們的學名改成這樣現在海灣都不可以課 海灣還可以課喔現在改完之後 畢竟他不可以課就會遇到這個課題 好不好 這第一個"},{"start":397.253,"end":425.429,"text":"第二請這個秘書長這個我們秘書長請問一下我們現在的商調機制你們現在有一些新的做法我們現在說就是人才嘛那他在A單位可能就想要調B單位B單位還有一個商調函那你們現在弄了一個就是一個月要回復如果一個月沒有回復那就是第二個月就直接可以過掉嘛那後來又弄了一個這個"},{"start":426.79,"end":444.7,"text":"也有一點防避機制啦譬如說你調去三個位調到B單位三個位之後又去搞說我要去C單位了所以你們訂了一個六個月的機制嘛這個機制現在在公務體系的同仁裡頭現在看起來大家都接受嘛"},{"start":445.958,"end":473.312,"text":"跟委員報告我們在討論這個過程裡面當然要平衡兩方的需求一個是想要調的人一個是用人機關所以我們就不斷討論完以後所以才有說六個月你不能來就睡覺嘛六個月最少你要待六個月接下來就是三個月如果你找到缺了有人要你你商調完去就是三個月原機關就應該要放人如果除了原機關有非常特別少數理由可以再加三那誰認定啊"},{"start":474.853,"end":497.142,"text":"我們都是用人機關來處理這個事情不過現在實務上啦原來的機關就是說我有這個需求因為它還是要符合那個條件譬如像說重大災害的搶救我們那個條件還是寫得很清楚啦沒有模糊空間幾乎都是那個要認定那個東西你還是要具體的事實而且老實說我們那個現在它這是一個處分啦"},{"start":498.863,"end":507.931,"text":"OK 好 謝謝你那第三個啊 你們有一個就是考試分花分花完了之後因為就是理解等於沒人要報名"},{"start":509.159,"end":530.714,"text":"我用人機關 我要三個需求嘛那我就去報上去 然後就考完試嘛那考完試都沒人要來嘛他考上去也沒人要來嘛所以你們就啟動了一個機制就是有公務人員資格的 有任用資格的然後他就可以 這個機關可以直接找這個有資格的就只用非限職人員啦非限職人員要有資格啦要有資格 好那這個時候的這個條件"},{"start":534.512,"end":540.317,"text":"就你原來用人機關去跟考選部說我要請你幫我考這些人或者是怎樣的時候呢有一個條件嘛就是說條件 可是你現在在用人的時候啊用人的時候那個條件會比原來他要分發的那些就是說他的條件更高還是更低會不會在這個地方被動手腳啦就是說我就是頂著很害怕的條件到我都沒人要來嗎"},{"start":559.724,"end":569.309,"text":"然後到最後我用的時候 它是有公務人員的資格喔就是 但是它 我就用了它了之後呢我要用我自己的人啊 所以你我叫你考選部幫我扣的時候 我頂得很害怕啊然後你派來的時候 派來我都說不愛啊 會不會這樣我給委員報告機關報給考選部開去的時候沒有訂任何資格條件的 它就說我拿來就報 根據這就來了那機關如果用非限制 因為它已經取得公務人員資格嘛 對不對"},{"start":587.139,"end":611.116,"text":"那我們要非限職人至少不是說任何人都可以啦 譬如說土木工程你至少一定要 你這個職系要土木工程職系你要有符合土木工程任用職系的相關資格才能來嘛機關還可以設定呢就是說我可能可以教你有沒有工作經驗什麼的 由機關來決定啦一般不會啦 因為機關要用人你就是要自己用啊你不會拿一個石頭砸自己的腳啊那不一定喔不會啦"},{"start":612.421,"end":627.7,"text":"他如果有目標人選就不一定我們講是說這個因為是給機關有一個快速用的可能性機關應該有個機制會去處理我是說提醒一下因為醫藥搞不好會出現這種"},{"start":629.042,"end":653.792,"text":"漏洞啦 這個漏洞 這個要預防啦 要不然以後大家 剛才說我們本地開的缺駕駛就要給什麼人啊 那些人現在就想要來啊 他非限職啊你知道我的意思啦這個是我們會透過 我想再跟行政院人事總署好好再談可以透過人事同仁的這個單位來一起來"},{"start":655.413,"end":662.848,"text":"宣導這些事情這個算是一種預先的預防才不會以後大家在後面閒言閒語太多好 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時50分）召委，我是建議那個計時器乾脆關掉好了，不然你就宣布20分加10分啊，你今天開始的時候雄心壯志的叫大家遵守時間，結果一次就講了20分鐘，整群都在「裝肖仔」，我的計時器關掉好了，不然要怎麼處理？大家都要搞成這樣！"],["主席：沒有，請王委員先發言，我會看那個情況……"],["王委員義川：你有看情況？"],["主席：不是，因為我希望委員們能夠在他的問題詢答到一個段落的時候……"],["王委員義川：我想說你當召委後，這樣的狀況會改善耶！"],["主席：事後我會跟委員們再個別的拜託，請大家要能夠遵守時間，畢竟因為剛開始，這個規則也許大家還不是那麼的清楚……"],["王委員義川：不會啦，你第一天都講得很清楚了，好嗎？我再看啦，好嗎？"],["主席：是，謝謝王委員，您應該也會同意我所說的規則，很感謝您……"],["王委員義川：以後若要這樣搞，計時器都關掉，沒意思嘛！跟人家說是8加2，講到最後講了20分鐘，大家都有很多話要講啊。"],["吳委員宗憲：王委員，錯在我啦！他有站起來制止我，是我硬要講，錯在我，不要為難主席啦，謝謝王委員……"],["王委員義川：我不會去說你啦，是主席第一天自己雄心壯志講的……"],["主席：好，那從現在開始，我就會嚴格執行，好不好？最多10分鐘。那就麻煩王委員請開始，我承認我之前可能處理的方式不是很妥當，麻煩王委員請先開始。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。我們請考選部長，好不好？謝謝。"],["劉部長孟奇：委員早。"],["王委員義川：部長好。我跟你反映一件事情，也在你們的報告裡頭，就是現在考公務員的人，因為大部分來自大學校院畢業的學生，你們有去跟大學討論課程地圖跟報考的關係，現在發生一些問題，就是說很多私立學校因為科系整併的關係，可能兩個系併成一個系，所以科系的名字就改了，那名字改就有可能影響報考資格，這個沒有錯嘛？好。譬如說他要考土木類科，那他原來譬如說是土木工程學系、什麼營建什麼系可以考，類似這樣，可是因為他合併以後就可能這個科系的名字不對了，跟你們原來的不一樣。第二個，你們當然有一個補救的方法，就是說那他如果大學修過哪些課，至少修過多少什麼課，也可以報考。那就會發生很多學校的譬如說課程委員，各系的課程委員會沒有去關心這些事情，就讓那個大學生他畢業以後，他決定要去考公務員的時候，他就發現說，啊！我不能考！不能考，他又回頭去跟原來的系所講，說我想要考但我不能考，結果這個系它可能就發一個公文到考選部去，請考選部研議，就是說大學某某系可不可以讓我們在你們的清單裡頭嘛，這個事情現在怎麼解決？"],["劉部長孟奇：跟委員報告，我想委員講的問題沒有錯，如果是個案的話，我們現在大概是回到我們的那一個審議或者是說在那邊解決，但是可能比較徹底的解決就是我們現在正在跟各個大學去對……在過去，就如委員所說的，你過去的課程委員會可能一直改，結果你都不知道自己的系名可能跟我們的規範相比已經偏差掉了，或者是說你裡面可以考的類科，我們對出來其實現在有的學校，譬如說五科有四科，一科不見了……"],["王委員義川：對。"],["劉部長孟奇：然後六科有四科，兩科不見了……"],["王委員義川：對。"],["劉部長孟奇：我們現在已經對過了幾個學校，像東吳、成大，我們那個技術是剛發展出來，我們希望接下來就是逐步的擴大，去跟所有的學校要把這個對一次。"],["王委員義川：好，這個要趕快做，不然有一些人，剛剛就說考的人很少，不是考的人少，是因為他想考，可是他沒辦法啊。邏輯上來說他就不是念這個科系，可是如果你讓他考，他考得過喔，對不對？他可能自學，培養了第二專長，或者去補習班補習，那他考得過喔，比原科系的可能考得更好。考選部對這樣的考生，你們有什麼看法？"],["劉部長孟奇：目前我們是分為行政類科還有技術類科，行政類科大部分的科系比較沒有問題，委員所說這樣的問題就發生在技術類科。的確依現在的法制，如果他不在那個科系，他是可以修一定的課程就可以來考特別技術類科，不過這邊的問題就是委員剛剛所說的，如果他畢業就沒有辦法回頭修，所以我們還是儘快地去協助各個學校趕快去對出來……"],["王委員義川：好。那他沒辦法修，可不可以讓各大學的推廣教育開課？"],["劉部長孟奇：應該是，我記得應該是可以。"],["王委員義川：可以嘛？"],["劉部長孟奇：對對，這是可以的。"],["王委員義川：這個有沒有限制？"],["劉部長孟奇：並沒有限制，他只要對過，我知道是可以的。"],["王委員義川：好。就是說假設他原來大學念法律，他現在準備來考土木技術，然後他就去補習，然後補習也沒有用，因為補習只是繳錢，於是他去某某大學的土木系推廣教育修了這些課，也拿到了這些推廣教育的學分，這些你們都承認他大學有修過這些課嗎？"],["劉部長孟奇：只要是大學的課程就承認。"],["王委員義川：那現在開的狀況怎麼樣？"],["劉部長孟奇：這個我們可能要回去再查一下。"],["王委員義川：好。因為我們現在科系的名稱越來越長，就會發生名稱越來越長，就是涵蓋範圍越來越廣，學得越來越少啦，最後他要參加國家考試時發現說這個系怎麼名字這麼長，結果一對下去，哇，不能考。我現在發現這個事情很嚴重，因為我以前在學校當系主任，就會有學生跑回來說：主任啊，你把我們的系名改成這樣，現在害我們都不能考。他原來可以考喔，改完之後變成他不能考，就會遇到這個課題，好不好？這是第一個。","第二，有請秘書長。秘書長，請問一下我們現在的商調機制，你們現在有一些新的作法……"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["王委員義川：有時候說就是人才嘛，那他在A單位可能想要調B單位，B單位來了一個商調函，那你們現在弄了一個就是一個月要回復……"],["劉秘書長建忻：任用法的施行細則修正。"],["王委員義川：如果一個月沒有回復，那第二個月就直接可以過掉嘛。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["王委員義川：那後來又弄了一個，這個也有一點防弊機制的作用，譬如說你調去那邊三個月，調到B單位三個月之後又去搞說我要去C單位了，所以你們也訂了一個六個月的機制嘛。這個機制在公務體系的同仁裡頭，現在看起來大家都接受嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們在討論這個過程裡面，當然要平衡兩方的需求，一個是想要調的人，一個是用人機關……"],["王委員義川：對。"],["施部長能傑：所以我們不斷討論完以後才有說要六個月，你不能來就馬上走嘛，最少你要待六個月，接下來就是三個月，如果你找到缺了，有人要你，你商調函去，就是三個月原機關就應該要放人。除非原機關有非常特別的少數理由，可以再加三個月。"],["王委員義川：那誰認定啊？"],["施部長能傑：要由原機關，我們一直都是用人機關來處理這個事情，不過現在實務上……"],["王委員義川：不是啊，那原來的機關就說我有這個需求，那誰認定？"],["施部長能傑：不是，因為他還是要符合那個條件，譬如像說重大災害的搶救，我們那個條件還是寫得很清楚啦，不是隨便說……"],["王委員義川：OK，沒有模糊空間？"],["施部長能傑：不是，幾乎都是要認定那個東西，你還是要有具體的事實，而且老實說，我們那個現在它……這就是一個處分啦。"],["王委員義川：OK，好，謝謝你。第三個，你們有一個考試分發，分發完了之後，你這個單位沒人要報名，我用人機關要三個需求嘛……"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員義川：那我就報上去，然後就考試，考完試都沒人要來，他考上他也不來嘛，所以你們就啟動了一個機制，就是有公務人員任用資格的，然後這個機關可以直接找這個有資格的……"],["施部長能傑：就指用非現職人員啦，不過他要有資格啦！"],["王委員義川：非現職人員，要有資格？好。那這個時候的這個條件，你原來用人機關去跟考選部說，我要請你幫我考這些人或者是怎樣的時候有一個條件嘛，可是你現在在用人的時候，那個條件會比原來他要分發的條件更高還是更低，會不會在這個地方被動手腳了？就是說我就是訂一個很嚴的條件，到最後都沒人要來嘛，然後到最後我用的時候，他是有公務人員任用資格，但是我要用我自己的人，所以我叫你考選部幫我考的時候，我把用人條件訂得很嚴，然後你們派人來的時候我都說不要，會不會這樣？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，機關報給考選部開缺的時候沒有訂任何資格條件，他有這個缺就報，然後你就根據這個職缺就來了……"],["王委員義川：好。"],["施部長能傑：那機關如果用非現職人員，因為他已經取得公務人員資格嘛，對不對？"],["王委員義川：對。"],["施部長能傑：那我們要非現職人員，至少不是說任何人都可以，譬如說你講土木工程，至少一定要你的職系有符合土木工程任用職系的相關資格才可以來嘛……"],["王委員義川：是。"],["施部長能傑：機關還可以設定，就是說我可能可以挑你有沒有工作經驗什麼的，由機關來決定啦。一般不會啦，因為機關要用人，任用人進來就是要用啊，你不會拿一個石頭砸自己的腳啊。"],["王委員義川：那不一定喔。"],["施部長能傑：不會啦！不會啦！"],["王委員義川：他如果有目標人選，那就不一定喔。"],["施部長能傑：我們講的是，這個是以給機關有一個快速用人的彈性啦！"],["王委員義川：我知道啦！我是說……"],["施部長能傑：機關應該有個機制會去處理啦。"],["王委員義川：我是提醒一下啦……"],["施部長能傑：我知道。"],["王委員義川：因為以後搞不好會出現這種漏洞，這個漏洞要預防，不然以後大家就說，我們本來開那個缺，那個缺是假的啊，早就要給誰了，那個人現在想要來，他非現職，你知道我的意思啦？"],["施部長能傑：我了解委員說的，我們會再跟行政院人事總處好好談一下，可以透過人事單位同仁一起來宣導這些事情。"],["王委員義川：這算是一種預先的預防，才不會以後大家閒言閒語太多。"],["施部長能傑：我了解。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，非常遵守時間，謝謝。","接下來我想請王鴻薇委員代我主持一下會議。"],["主席（王委員鴻薇代）：現在請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163971","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163971","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb626011b3dea7f9bc2e119d4e8153da54efa0e4ffc4b42a1cecec6d484a9071cdc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:29:48 - 09:49:53","影片長度":"00:20:05","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T09:29:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T09:49:53+08:00","duration":1205,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.30034375,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.629093750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.69096875,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.53471875,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.59784375,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.926593750000002,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.086593750000002,"end":23.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.99346875,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.55784375,"end":30.827843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.317218750000002,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.737218750000004,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.06159375,"end":52.984718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.27159375,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.60034375,"end":58.688468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.94159375,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.835968750000006,"end":60.375968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.375968750000006,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.56971875000001,"end":63.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.72971875,"end":69.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.99471875,"end":71.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.32784375,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.11221875000001,"end":75.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.68159375,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.92596875000001,"end":79.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.68096875,"end":80.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.81159375,"end":82.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.53284375000001,"end":82.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.70159375,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.71846875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.08096875000001,"end":91.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.16846875,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":94.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.73346875,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.37034375,"end":106.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.11971875,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.13659375,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":109.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.42721875000001,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.97846875,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.90971875000001,"end":143.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.67096875000001,"end":145.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.51034375,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.40034375000002,"end":147.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.39596875,"end":149.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.03284375,"end":171.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.55971875,"end":153.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.00409375,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.03346875000003,"end":200.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.79284375,"end":200.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.80971875,"end":200.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.19784375,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.23159375,"end":201.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.15971875000002,"end":206.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.56409375,"end":209.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.74534375000002,"end":208.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.28096875,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.41159375,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.11034375000003,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.04221875000002,"end":227.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.32034375,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.17221875,"end":242.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.38534375,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.88221875000002,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.75971875000002,"end":252.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.98721875,"end":255.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.77159375000002,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.42096875000004,"end":258.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.39971875000003,"end":262.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.72409375,"end":263.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.80409375,"end":266.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.52096875,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.37971875,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.41221875,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.67659375,"end":300.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.30034375,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.14721875000004,"end":314.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.83409375,"end":320.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.24659375000005,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.82346875,"end":329.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.93721875,"end":333.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.02096875,"end":337.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.58159375,"end":339.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.92721875,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.88471875000005,"end":345.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.20471875000004,"end":348.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.56721875,"end":349.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.56284375,"end":351.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.46534375000005,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.37596875,"end":357.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.28721875,"end":358.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.14784375000005,"end":361.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.76346875,"end":362.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.24846875000003,"end":363.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.80096875000004,"end":366.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.87659375000004,"end":367.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.85534375000003,"end":368.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.73284375000003,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.76596875,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.28471875,"end":375.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.03971875,"end":377.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.14909375,"end":389.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.74284375,"end":386.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.16034375000004,"end":387.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.96159375,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.11721875,"end":393.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.62346875000003,"end":396.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.16721875,"end":400.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.35659375,"end":410.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.96721875000003,"end":417.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.65346875,"end":420.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.43784375,"end":423.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.89721875000004,"end":425.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.65221875000003,"end":429.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.38159375000004,"end":434.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.34284375000004,"end":435.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.13159375000004,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.32096875,"end":441.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.07159375000003,"end":442.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.75909375000003,"end":444.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.83909375,"end":449.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.78346875000005,"end":450.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.01534375000006,"end":451.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.55096875000004,"end":454.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.91346875000005,"end":461.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.16971875,"end":464.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.35909375000006,"end":469.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.66221875,"end":471.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.68284375,"end":473.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.39159375,"end":481.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.76159375000003,"end":484.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.90034375000005,"end":486.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.35159375,"end":488.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.83221875000004,"end":489.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.89534375000005,"end":490.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.34659375,"end":495.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.44284375,"end":498.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.31159375000004,"end":502.41659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.04096875000005,"end":505.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.53846875000005,"end":506.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.44534375,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.18784375,"end":509.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.3559687500001,"end":512.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.28409375,"end":517.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.9540937500001,"end":530.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3572187500001,"end":543.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.78971875,"end":545.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.51534375,"end":545.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.5659687500001,"end":545.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.61659375,"end":545.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.65034375,"end":545.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.90346875,"end":546.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.34221875,"end":551.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.8940937500001,"end":553.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.32846875,"end":556.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.17221875,"end":554.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.56846875,"end":562.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.52596875,"end":559.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.4240937500001,"end":566.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.17909375,"end":564.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.9297187500001,"end":580.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.62784375,"end":585.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.99846875,"end":590.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.21284375,"end":593.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.7903437500001,"end":601.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.78971875,"end":599.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.0972187500001,"end":602.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.71721875,"end":609.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.2353437500001,"end":611.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.72846875,"end":613.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.39471875,"end":619.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.36909375,"end":625.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.7053437500001,"end":626.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.51534375,"end":629.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.8059687500001,"end":638.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.85096875,"end":642.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.39034375,"end":651.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.33846875,"end":664.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.99034375,"end":669.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.0190937500001,"end":671.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.60534375,"end":675.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.97596875,"end":682.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.86096875,"end":699.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.92159375,"end":701.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.3134687500001,"end":708.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.91596875,"end":709.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.18159375,"end":712.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.1684687500001,"end":721.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.8759687500001,"end":725.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.5378437500001,"end":727.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.97596875,"end":737.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.87346875,"end":742.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.2397187500001,"end":749.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.4453437500001,"end":752.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.02721875,"end":757.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.54534375,"end":760.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.77284375,"end":762.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.6797187500001,"end":764.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.0590937500001,"end":769.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.51409375,"end":775.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.0615937500002,"end":779.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.8415937500001,"end":781.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.42784375,"end":783.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.3515937500001,"end":786.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.04284375,"end":797.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.89784375,"end":808.1240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.76534375,"end":810.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.7397187500001,"end":811.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.37659375,"end":813.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.4734687500002,"end":819.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":820.3078437500001,"end":824.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.46284375,"end":832.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.2509687500001,"end":836.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.41909375,"end":840.0515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.06846875,"end":840.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.1359687500001,"end":842.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.4309687500001,"end":845.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.70034375,"end":847.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.82659375,"end":856.0828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.7240937500001,"end":870.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.6628437500001,"end":871.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.5359687500002,"end":875.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":876.19784375,"end":881.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.41221875,"end":886.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.7278437500001,"end":887.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.07784375,"end":888.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.5122187500001,"end":890.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.7609687500001,"end":892.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.4653437500001,"end":896.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.0047187500002,"end":902.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.2022187500002,"end":905.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":906.72471875,"end":908.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":909.59346875,"end":921.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":922.5365937500001,"end":926.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":926.7722187500001,"end":938.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":938.68596875,"end":942.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":942.8203437500001,"end":954.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":954.86909375,"end":955.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":956.3034687500001,"end":963.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":963.42471875,"end":965.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":965.7703437500002,"end":972.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":973.2122187500001,"end":984.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":985.4465937500001,"end":998.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":999.45284375,"end":1007.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1008.4978437500001,"end":1023.8540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1024.2422187500001,"end":1026.6722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1026.9253437500001,"end":1027.2290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1028.2415937500002,"end":1033.4390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1033.65846875,"end":1035.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1035.7847187500001,"end":1036.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1037.6240937500002,"end":1038.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1038.4847187500002,"end":1038.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1039.3115937500002,"end":1041.1678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1043.20971875,"end":1063.9659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1064.4890937500002,"end":1069.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1069.90596875,"end":1071.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1071.72846875,"end":1076.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1077.22971875,"end":1078.1409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1078.5628437500002,"end":1083.7772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1084.2159687500002,"end":1087.5740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1087.91159375,"end":1090.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1091.43846875,"end":1092.3665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1093.56471875,"end":1094.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1094.7628437500002,"end":1095.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1096.18034375,"end":1098.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1098.61034375,"end":1102.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1103.7065937500001,"end":1107.9422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1108.44846875,"end":1115.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1115.92409375,"end":1117.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1118.2528437500002,"end":1118.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1119.43409375,"end":1122.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1122.62346875,"end":1122.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1123.33221875,"end":1125.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1125.86346875,"end":1130.0653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1130.35221875,"end":1131.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1132.5290937500001,"end":1137.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1137.7434687500001,"end":1138.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1138.9078437500002,"end":1144.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1144.3753437500002,"end":1147.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1147.3622187500002,"end":1149.5728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1150.2815937500002,"end":1154.6690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1154.9222187500002,"end":1155.0740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1155.39471875,"end":1158.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1159.1747187500002,"end":1161.4022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1162.2628437500002,"end":1172.5228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1173.0797187500002,"end":1185.9890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1186.1747187500002,"end":1189.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1189.6847187500002,"end":1190.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1190.96721875,"end":1191.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1192.4353437500001,"end":1194.5784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1194.7134687500002,"end":1202.3240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1203.48846875,"end":1204.51784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.315,"end":29.795,"text":"我們麻煩秘書長待會也是要請教全區部長可以稍微等一下委員長早安秘書長早安我想秘書長我們首先我先提一下就是說因為一般人民搞不清楚常任文官跟政務官有什麼不一樣"},{"start":30.595,"end":56.877,"text":"我想我還是要說明一下政務官他跟一般基層的國務院常任文官其實不同那像行政院底下像那個內政部長或什麼財政部副部長政次發言人秘書長等等的這些不是靠國家考試進來的而是由那個執政者去任命的這個是政務官但是政務官通常也是行政體系裡面的領導階層"},{"start":57.958,"end":81.998,"text":"秘書長這樣有沒有 理解有沒有錯誤沒有錯誤好 那我想喔 那個像秘書長你也是算政務官嘛不過我這邊先說明就是秘書長你說我見過民進黨裡面 政務官裡面真的是非常有就是我覺得整個中立性以及專業度我覺得是非常欽佩的"},{"start":83.259,"end":109.255,"text":"民進黨裡面有一些政務官其實我就比較沒有那麼認同但是您是我非常認同的一位政務官我想請教一下既然是國家的政務官他也是領國家的薪水這是人民的納稅錢到底有沒有行政中立的義務我想這個問題我們已經討論過好幾次了我想還是請您再說一次他到底在行政上有沒有中立的義務"},{"start":111.157,"end":126.756,"text":"行政中立當然就是看政務官的性質他還是有多多少少一定會有行政中立上面的相關規範只是說政務官跟事務官他們在行政中立上面他們的程度不同以及他們的法律依據不同我想這個應該沒有論述錯誤吧"},{"start":129.859,"end":147.82,"text":"那在行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實當時也有提到說政務官的行政中立其實當然不是跟一般常任務官的行政中立用同一個法律來規範但是還是要另立專法對不對要不要另立專法這個當然見仁見智我們尊重立法院的"},{"start":148.76,"end":173.065,"text":"但是至少政務官還是有行政中立的義務存在現在的行政中立法也有這樣的行為那我想請問一下因為之前我們大家都知道有一個群組外洩出來就是裡面有81位民進黨的政務官以及立委以及一些黨工那裡面又有提到一些什麼就是"},{"start":174.185,"end":200.621,"text":"有政務官回應說有立委說要釋出殺傷力的訊息但是有政務官說收到而且要跟市方就是內政部長討論處理中那我想這個部分以您的想法政務官明明拿的是人民的薪水但卻在這邊幫忙做政治的攻防甚至打選戰那這個是不是就是一個行政不中立我想請教一下 理事長"},{"start":202.762,"end":223.718,"text":"這個因為我不在這個群組中所以我沒有辦法看到完整的他的對話所以沒有辦法做判斷好吧當然我先說明一下就是寫殺傷力的這個委員當然他後來有解釋殺傷力是什麼意思他說真相對造謠者有殺傷力就是我覺得大家都是"},{"start":225.1,"end":242.413,"text":"中文都是母語啦那大家用字遣詞的習慣其實也都一樣那這有沒有硬凹我想國人都會有一個公平那當然你說硬凹的這種東西我以前開庭看多了被告硬凹凹的比他更誇張的多的是但在這個地方把"},{"start":243.55,"end":257.103,"text":"這一段文字解釋成說真相對造謠者的殺傷力我想沒關係啦這個說的人自己喜歡聽就好了那我想大部分的人民其實不會買單啦好那我想喔"},{"start":259.482,"end":274.967,"text":"這個群組的這個問題其實顯現的一個狀況就是當政務官跟政黨綁在一起的時候其實政府就已經不是政府就變成黨的機器了嘛那我很多次我也不會言的跟大家報告說我以前是民進黨的信徒"},{"start":275.367,"end":300.388,"text":"因為我深愛民進黨的親連情 正愛相圖以民進黨以前對於國民黨的批判不應該黨國一體不應該手伸進媒體 學校 軍隊等等的公務體系但是今天他沒有做到他反而手伸得更進去甚至以前他最追求的言論自由現在變成是很不言論自由所以這個就是我覺得開始去反思說我以前支持的"},{"start":301.363,"end":320.359,"text":"的那一群人可能因為人員的更換招牌一樣但是內容已經不一樣所以我才會覺得這樣對嗎就是當你把黨務跟國家綁在一起就變成黨國一體的狀況這也不是一個民主國家的常態最近我們看到的就是說"},{"start":321.36,"end":338.441,"text":"人民繳的稅金我希望拿來救災而不是救選情也不是救執政的民調的滿意度所以政務官應該為國做事而不是為政黨出權公僕不應該變成是黨僕這是我一直以來我的想法"},{"start":340.017,"end":365.299,"text":"所以很多時候政務官的不中立會變成是人民對於政府不信任對政府信任度瓦解的開始所以我想我還是要提出提出這個我想請問因為您剛一直說你不了解你不在那個群組內不了解所以有一些問題要請問你那我想說你說不了解還是您認同嗎"},{"start":366.94,"end":371.304,"text":"政務官搭配立委以及黨工在群組裡面"},{"start":373.056,"end":396.759,"text":"發表這樣的言論 您認同嗎您自己是政務官 您的立場我覺得是這樣啦 這個事情都會反映到當一個災害發生的時候 大家都很關心那在第一時間 一定大家社會有各種說法還有一些訊息 那一定有一些不一定是刻意造謠 但可能是也許是不正確的理解在流傳 也有可能那作為民意代表 我相信每一位都會很心急"},{"start":397.259,"end":417.105,"text":"也是希望行政部門要趕快把事情說清楚能夠把這個狀況釐清所以我想這個大概可以這裡面看得出來大家在第一時間都很關心也希望政府能夠趕快有行動當然我也相信很多民進黨的立委以及政務官都是非常用心在為這個國家做事這個我也認同啦"},{"start":417.705,"end":437.978,"text":"但是這個群組裡面他有很多是也許是在討論一些救災等等的這個我沒有意見但是單就這個某個特定委員要求說趕快釋出拒殺傷例的這個訊息我是不認同這句話那我更不認同說掛著職稱譬如說總統府秘書長等等的職稱的這個賴的這個怎麼講"},{"start":444.904,"end":470.097,"text":"塗貼名稱然後用這個理由去加入到政治的攻擊這個我們是不認同我也不認為政治人物政務官該做這種事情那否則我就覺得那以後大家就黨國一體就大家亂搞民主國家政黨輪替是正常那是不是換一個政黨之後大家就來搞同一套我不認同這樣我還是覺得民主國家要有民主國家的樣子存在"},{"start":473.486,"end":495.644,"text":"更何況殺傷力這個東西這個也不是正常的一些政策或政策協調上面的用語我想我們在用政策協調用語不會用殺傷力這個啦否則你們考試院有可能說我們今年的執行率我們增加了20%的殺傷力我想不會用這樣的用語"},{"start":496.505,"end":509.635,"text":"所以自始至終我不認同 這個是那位委員他的論述方式我再請問一下 不好意思你們考試院曾經有提過一個版本"},{"start":518.991,"end":543.374,"text":"曾經有提過一個版本就是有關政務人員中立的這個版本那我想請教一下我這次看到的這個群組裡面的這些政務官他讓我的感覺是什麼我想先請您告訴我啦在這個災難的期間你不救人你反而去協調政黨的攻防那這樣子是不是違背政務官這個代表政府應該有的職責"},{"start":544.884,"end":561.752,"text":"是不是我看在這個災難發生的時候這個中央或者是地方很多人大家都是很努力的去要去處理這個問題民主黨 這個我不否認我也跟民主黨報告我不是說一定"},{"start":562.512,"end":588.809,"text":"民進黨就壞人 不是大部分的民進黨的立委我都非常的尊重大部分的民進黨的政務官我也很尊重他們他們很多時候也在為這個國家努力做事但是我意思是說有少部分或偶爾有幾件這樣子的事情發生我覺得國人不能接受我從來沒有否定掉這些委員們對於國家的貢獻我從來沒有否認像在座王一川委員他也對國家很多貢獻我也從來沒有否認所以"},{"start":591.483,"end":609.475,"text":"您不用跟我回答說救災期間大家很努力我覺得這個我不是聚焦在這邊我只是意見是說當救災期間政務官卻陪著立法委員在那邊搞這些殺傷力的訊息他就要找誰處理你覺得這樣適當嗎"},{"start":615.424,"end":637.522,"text":"我覺得還是要釐清他們到底在對話的內容到底是要講什麼我覺得你可能不方便講這個啦我也可以理解啦在現行我們的國家制度以及民進黨內對於思想控制的情況下我認為政務官不敢講真話這已經變成是一個國家常態而且是國家的悲哀大家不敢把真正的話說出來但事實上我們認為"},{"start":638.923,"end":664.202,"text":"政務官竟然已經當政務官了其實你某程度你就要跳脫政黨之間的對立而是要全力為國家人民我認為是這個樣子所以我還是回過頭去說啦好吧 那至少我的認定我認為在救災國家有難的期間政務官應該全力去救災而不是在群組裡面配合黨工或部分政治力比較強烈的"},{"start":665.043,"end":681.76,"text":"立委在那邊搞政治的鬥爭因為這些東西確實就會侵害到國家的利益毀損掉國家的名譽所以我剛提到的考試院當年的政務人員法第21條的立法理由其實政務官他應該"},{"start":682.941,"end":701.48,"text":"如果發生一些狀況其實他應該看整體的國家局勢他真的不戴懲戒就應該主動辭職以事負責所以這個才是政務官的風範也就是當年你們考試院對於政務官的要求這個立法是你們當年的立法但是我今天看到的是"},{"start":703.376,"end":727.843,"text":"執政黨執政九年多了 裡面非常多的政策荒腔走板但是我們幾乎沒有看到什麼政務官願意辭職以示負責所以你們當年對於國人對於國家政務官體系的期待其實在今天我們是沒看到所以這個草案還是草案你們貴院當年的期待其實是在今天的台灣是沒有看到的"},{"start":730.211,"end":756.925,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我一直說我們這次要著重政務人員的行政中立然後我要推出一個行為基準法就是這樣因為我們都不知道我們會在立法院多久您也不知道您會在政壇多久對不對但我們還是要給國家跟人民留下一些貢獻政務官的行政中立是非常的重要不是只有事務官需要行政中立因為政務官是事務官的長官"},{"start":758.581,"end":785.96,"text":"我今天看到的狀況是一個行政院院長帶頭違憲違法立法院三讀通過的法律可以不執行就一句說我申請四憲中所以我認為這個違憲所以我不執行全世界沒有人這樣做過往我國政府也沒有人這樣做過完全違反三權分立或五權分立國家的制度他都敢這樣講那你要繼承的公務員怎麼想因為政務官是他們的長官"},{"start":788.626,"end":807.676,"text":"所以我說我這次我一直提倡要推這個基準法其實我是希望政務官能夠回歸法治明確界限界限那個界限的存在中立跟不中立界限要把它存在讓他們在執行權力的時候不能任性然後責任要能夠被追究所以我這次我一直堅持要提這個"},{"start":809.137,"end":831.775,"text":"基準法出來 如果說貴院一直沒有辦法再提出版本那就由我們立法院來主動提因為我認為不管未來哪一個黨執政該黨的政務官就是要忠義 要為國而不是為黨這是行政院長的做法 我想任何一個法律人應該都很懂"},{"start":833.308,"end":855.919,"text":"有念法律或相關的其實你應該也很能夠理解哪有一個立法院三讀通過的法律行政院可以選擇不執行或者是說我釋憲中所以我不執行還可以講這種話那今天我如果對哪一個法律我不喜歡那我去申請釋憲啊那我是不是從申請釋憲那天開始我就說我可以不遵守這條法律"},{"start":856.789,"end":880.31,"text":"所以我開玩笑的對大家說我對稅增基增法申請釋憲從釋憲那天開始申請那天開始我就不繳稅因為我要遵守我認為這違憲所以我要遵守憲法所以我不用繳稅其實這是荒謬的言論那行政院院長他在未來也會為他這句話去附上他一輩子的責任因為這是極端的荒謬全世界也沒有人這樣幹"},{"start":881.971,"end":908.043,"text":"那不好意思我耽誤大家很多時間那最後我想花一點點時間那那個部長不好意思我想我們剛剛提到的是行政中立的問題那現在我再提一個體系上面的問題我想我們已經講了很多次了這幾年公務員的入企率越來越高但公務員入企率越來越高的原因是因為大家不想考考生越來越少"},{"start":909.659,"end":925.626,"text":"所以執政應該是要廣羅人才來為政府的服務嘛一流的人才才能為我們帶來一流的政府就現在大家不想來我們現在看到的體系變成什麼樣上面的大官在搞政治中階的"},{"start":926.886,"end":953.114,"text":"官員沒有士氣完全提不起勁然後底下的新進人員流失流光光沒有人要來我先舉新北檢的例子2025年今年新北檢9個辭職然後後來又包括一個調布辦事的檢察官也辭職10個辭職一個地檢署才幾個檢察官一次10個檢察官離開檢察官薪水是10幾20萬一個月"},{"start":954.955,"end":971.405,"text":"他都不幹了然後更不要講各級公務員一堆問題這次離開的有我帶過以前的學習司法官他們跟我講的是一連串體系出了大問題為什麼執政九年會把國家帶像今天這個樣子"},{"start":973.614,"end":992.187,"text":"我其實是很擔心的那中階的官員為什麼沒有士氣因為身欠無望啊上面一堆位子都由不專業的人來卡最上面的位子我想今天如果有公務員在聽我們今天他就能夠深切的體會一堆高階的官員現在都有不專業的人在那邊領軍由不專業的來領軍專業的中階公務員沒士氣上面的人違法"},{"start":999.52,"end":1007.729,"text":"像行政院長違法違憲三如通過法律不執行然後底下人只能陪著他這麼幹這樣子就沒有士氣了"},{"start":1008.661,"end":1035.312,"text":"對不對 解凍案已經準備好了長官叫我不可以送出去那請問一下中階的官員會有士氣嗎每個人都知道是為了罷免而不能送出解凍案但每個人都擔心預算的問題但長官不給我送這是當時一堆公務員跳出來爆料啊所以為什麼今天會搞成這樣為什麼執政之後把公務員搞得沒有尊嚴沒有保障退休金講好了後來也不給所以"},{"start":1037.659,"end":1040.456,"text":"我想我要麻煩各位"},{"start":1043.417,"end":1068.989,"text":"國家走到今天這樣尤其是數字是不會騙人數字是最科學的我們看到的是報考的人數越來越少一堆中階訓練很扎實的一個一個走掉我說向新北檢走掉那個大概都是十年左右的檢察官訓練剛好是體力跟經驗值剛好是最橫頻的那個時候就一個一個走光光這個是我對於國家的憂慮"},{"start":1070.789,"end":1089.338,"text":"還有各行各業各個公部門都有一樣的狀況發生那我想兩位雖然是民進黨的政務官但我覺得你們對國家一定也有熱忱你們在看到國家今天變成這樣我想兩位也會擔心所以我要提出來麻煩一下"},{"start":1093.618,"end":1102.365,"text":"我想幾個主張再跟兩位報告第一個我還是希望依法行政的公務員要被尊重"},{"start":1103.752,"end":1131.031,"text":"行政院不要再用預算裁量當藉口然後把這個真的你依法該給的待遇退休金依法該辦理就辦理不要什麼都政治算計這個麻煩當然我知道院長是取決於院長那院長現在竟然要跟法治跟憲法對著幹那我們也只能期待他有一天能夠迷途知返那第二個我們希望說考試院重新檢討"},{"start":1132.572,"end":1161.135,"text":"待遇結構還有職涯的激勵包括剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的那個那個平等 甲等乙等的問題然後我們要讓年輕人看到真的有升遷 轉任機制讓公職的人能夠回到有尊嚴的職業選擇因為我記得我剛出來當檢察官那個時代不管是待遇 不管是受人尊敬都非常的高現在我真的看不到那很多時候反而是我們政治人物把國家帶到今天這樣然後再來 我覺得我要跟兩位報告"},{"start":1162.301,"end":1190.375,"text":"因為考試院一直不推出來所以我們這邊會推動政務人員行為基準法我們把政治干預還有公務體系私信的這個根源我們要把它去除掉我們希望說不要讓政治力還有違法的行政這些干預到我們整個國家行政體系否則啊你再怎麼樣都救不了我們現在公務員很低的士氣那最後我還是謝謝兩位因為兩位真的都是我很敬佩的兩位政務官"},{"start":1191.115,"end":1202.32,"text":"那我們希望說我今天提這個東西兩位能夠協助我們我們一起把相關的制度把它改善然後給國家引入更好的公務人員好不好好 謝謝各位好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時29分）我們麻煩秘書長。"],["主席：有請秘書長。"],["吳委員宗憲：待會也要請教銓敘部長。"],["主席：也請施部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：可以稍微等一下。"],["主席：好。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早安。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長早安。秘書長，首先我先提一下，因為一般人民搞不清楚常任文官跟政務官有什麼不一樣，我還是要說明一下，政務官跟一般基層的公務員常任文官其實不同，像行政院底下、像內政部長或財政部副部長、政次、發言人、秘書長等等，這些不是靠國家考試進來的，而是由執政者去任命的，這個是政務官，但是政務官通常也是行政體系的領導階層。秘書長，我這樣的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有錯誤。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，像秘書長你也是算政務官嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：不過我這邊先說明，秘書長你是我見過民進黨政務官裡面真的是非常有……就是整個中立性以及專業度我覺得非常欽佩的，當然民進黨裡面有一些政務官我就比較沒有那麼認同，但是您是我非常認同的一位政務官。","我想請教一下，既然是國家的政務官，他也是領國家的薪水，這是人民的納稅錢，到底有沒有行政中立的義務？這個問題已經討論過好幾次了，還是請您再說一次，他到底在行政上有沒有中立的義務？"],["劉秘書長建忻：行政中立當然是看政務官的性質，他還是多多少少一定會有行政中立上面相關的規範。"],["吳委員宗憲：只是說政務官跟事務官在行政中立上面，他們的程度不同……"],["劉秘書長建忻：會有不同。"],["吳委員宗憲：以及他們的法律依據不同，這個應該沒有論述錯誤吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：在行政中立法第二條的立法理由其實當時也有提到，政務官的行政中立當然不是跟一般常用文官的行政中立用同一個法律來規範，還是要另立專法，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：要不要另立專法當然見仁見智，我們尊重立法院最後的決定。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是至少政務官還是有行政中立的義務存在嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，現在的行政中立法也有這樣的效果。"],["吳委員宗憲：好的、好的。我想請問一下，因為之前大家都知道有一個群組外洩出來，那裡面有81位民進黨的政務官、立委以及一些黨工，裡面有立委說要釋出殺傷力的訊息，有政務官說收到而且跟世芳（就是內政部長）處理中。這個部分，以您的想法，政務官明明拿的是人民的薪水，但卻在這邊幫忙做政治的攻防，甚至打選戰，這個是不是就是行政不中立？我想請教一下秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：因為我不在這個群組中，沒有辦法看到完整的對話，所以沒有辦法做判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧。當然，我先說明一下，寫殺傷力的這個委員他後來有解釋殺傷力是什麼意思，他說真相對造謠者有殺傷力，我覺得大家中文都是母語啦！大家用字遣詞的習慣其實也都一樣，這有沒有硬拗？我想國人都會有一個公評，當然你說硬拗的這種東西，我以前開庭看多了，被告硬拗拗得比他更誇張的多的是，但在這個地方把這段文字解釋成真相對造謠者的殺傷力，沒關係，說的人自己喜歡聽就好了，我想大部分的人民其實不會買單。","這個群組的問題其實顯現的一個狀況是，當政務官跟政黨綁在一起的時候，其實政府就已經不是政府而是變成黨的機器了。我很多次也不諱言的跟大家報告，我以前是民進黨的信徒，因為我深愛民進黨的清廉行政、愛鄉土，以及民進黨以前對於國民黨的批判，不應該黨國一體，不應該手伸進媒體、學校、軍隊等等的公務體系，但是今天他沒有做到，他反而手伸得更進去，甚至以前他們最追求的言論自由，現在變成很不言論自由，所以這讓我開始去反思我以前支持的那一群人，可能因為人員的更換導致招牌一樣但是內容已經不一樣，所以我才會覺得這樣對嗎？當你把黨務跟國家綁在一起，就變成黨國一體的狀況，這也不是一個民主國家的常態。","最近看到，人民繳的稅金我希望拿來救災，而不是救選情，也不是救執政民調的滿意度，所以政務官應該為國做事而不是為政黨出拳，公僕不應該變成是黨僕，這是我一直以來的想法。很多時候政務官的不中立會變成人民對於政府不信任，對政府信任度瓦解的開始，所以我想我還是要提出來。","我想請問，您剛剛一直說你不了解，因為你不在那個群組內不了解，本來我有一些問題要請問你，既然你說不了解，還是您認同嗎？政務官搭配立委以及黨工在群組裡面發表這樣的言論，您認同嗎？以您自己是政務官，您的立場。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我覺得是這樣，這個事情都會反映到當一個災害發生的時候大家都很關心，在第一時間大家、社會一定有各種說法還有一些訊息，一定有一些不一定是刻意造謠，但也許是不正確的理解在流傳，這也有可能。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["劉秘書長建忻：作為民意代表，我相信每一位都會很心急，也希望行政部門要趕快把事情說清楚，能夠把這個狀況釐清，所以我想大概可以看得出來大家在第一時間都很關心，也希望政府能夠趕快有行動。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實我知道啦！當然我也相信很多民進黨的立委以及政務官都是非常用心在為國家做事，這個我也認同啦！這個群組裡面有很多也許在討論救災等等的，這個我沒有意見，但是單就這位某個特定委員要求趕快釋出具殺傷力的訊息，我是不認同這句話，我更不認同掛著職稱，譬如說總統府秘書長等等的職稱，LINE的怎麼講……圖貼名稱，用這個理由加入到政治的攻擊，這個我們是不認同，我也不認為政治人物、政務官該做這種事情，否則我覺得以後大家就黨國一體大家亂搞。民主國家政黨輪替是正常，是不是換一個政黨之後大家就來搞同一套？我不認同，我還是覺得民主國家要有民主國家的樣子存在，更何況「殺傷力」這個東西也不是正常的一些政策或政策協調上面的用語，我想政策協調用語不會用「殺傷力」，你們考試院有可能說今年的執行率增加了20%的殺傷力？我想不會用這樣的用語，所以自始至終我不認同，這個是那位委員的論述方式。","我再請問一下，考試院曾經有提過一個版本是有關政務人員中立的版本，我想請教，這次看到這個群組裡面的這些政務官，他讓我的感覺是什麼？我想先請您告訴我在災難的期間你不救人，你反而去協調政黨的攻防，這樣子是不是違背政務官代表政府應該有的職責，是不是？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我看在災難發生的時候，中央或者是地方很多人都是很努力要去處理這個問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長，這個我不否認，我也跟秘書長報告，我不是說民進黨一定就是壞人，不是！大部分民進黨的立委我都非常的尊重，大部分民進黨的政務官我也很尊重他們，他們很多時候也在為這個國家努力做事，但我的意思是有少部分或偶爾有幾件這樣子的事情發生，我覺得國人不能接受，我從來沒有否定掉這些委員們對於國家的貢獻，我從來沒有否認，像在座王義川委員他也對國家有很多貢獻，我也從來沒有否認，所以您不用跟我回答說救災期間大家很努力，我不是聚焦在這邊。"],["劉秘書長建忻：了解。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意見只是說當救災期間，政務官卻陪著立法委員在那邊搞這些怎麼樣有殺傷力的訊息，他說好、他就要找誰處理，你覺得這樣適當嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我覺得還是要釐清他們對話的內容到底在講什麼。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，算了，我覺得你可能不方便講這個，我也可以理解啦！在現行的國家制度以及民進黨內對於思想控制的情況下，我認為政務官不敢講真話已經變成是一個國家常態，而且是國家的悲哀，大家不敢把真正的話說出來，但事實上，我們認為政務官既然已經當政務官了，其實某種程度就要跳脫政黨之間的對立，而且要全力為國家、人民，我認為是這個樣子，所以我還是回過頭去說啦！好吧，至少我的認定，我認為在國家有難、救災的期間政務官應該全力去救災，而不是在群組裡面配合黨工或部分政治力比較強烈的立委在那邊搞政治的鬥爭，因為這些東西確實就會侵害到國家的利益、毀損掉國家的名譽。","所以我剛剛提到的，當年考試院政務人員法第二十一條的立法理由，政務官如果發生了一些狀況，其實他應該看整體的國家局勢，真的不待懲戒就應該主動辭職以示負責，這個才是政務官的風範，也就是當年你們考試院對於政務官的要求，這個立法是你們當年的立法，但是我今天看到的是，執政黨執政九年多了，裡面非常多的政策荒腔走板，但是我們幾乎沒有看到什麼政務官願意辭職以示負責，當年你們及國人對於國家政務官體系的期待，其實在今天我們是沒看到，所以這個草案還是草案，也就是貴院當年的期待其實在今天的臺灣是沒有看到，這就是為什麼我一直說我們這次要著重政務人員的行政中立，然後我要提出一個行為基準法，就是這樣，因為我們都不知道我們會在立法院多久，您也不知道您會在政壇多久，對不對？但我們還是要給國家跟人民留下一些貢獻，政務官的行政中立是非常的重要，不是只有事務官需要行政中立，因為政務官是事務官的長官。我今天看到的狀況是，一個行政院院長帶頭違憲、違法，立法院三讀通過的法律可以不執行，就一句我聲請釋憲中、我認為這個違憲，所以就不執行，全世界沒有人這樣做，過往我國政府也沒有人這樣做過，完全違反三權分立或五權分立的國家制度，他都敢這樣講了，你要基層的公務員怎麼想，因為政務官是他們的長官。所以我說我一直提倡要推這個基準法，其實我是希望政務官能夠回歸法制，明確界限的存在，中立跟不中立的界限要存在，讓他們在執行權力的時候不能任性，然後責任要能夠被追究，所以我這次一直堅持要提這個基準法出來，如果貴院一直沒有辦法再提出版本，那就由我們立法院來主動提，因為我認為不管未來哪一個黨執政，該黨的政務官就是要中立，要為國而不是為黨。","對於行政院長的作法，我想任何一個法律人應該都很懂，如果您有念法律或相關的，其實您應該也很能夠理解，哪有一個立法院三讀通過的法律，行政院可以選擇不執行，或者說在釋憲中所以就不執行，還可以講這種話？今天我如果對哪個法律不喜歡，我就去聲請釋憲，我是不是從聲請釋憲那天開始就可以不遵守這條法律？所以我開玩笑的對大家說，我對稅捐稽徵法聲請釋憲，從聲請釋憲那天開始我就不繳稅，因為我認為這個違憲，我要遵守憲法，所以我不用繳稅，其實這是荒謬的言論。行政院長在未來也會為他這句話去負上他一輩子的責任，因為這是極端的荒謬，全世界也沒有人這樣幹。","不好意思，我耽誤大家很多時間。最後我想花一點時間，部長，我們剛提到的是行政中立的問題，現在我再提一個體系上面的問題，我想我們已經講了很多次了，這幾年公務員的錄取率越來越高，但公務員錄取率越來越高的原因是因為大家不想考，考生越來越少啊，執政應該是要廣羅人才來為政府服務，一流的人才才能為我們帶來一流的政府，結果現在大家不想來，我們現在看到的體系變成什麼樣？上面的大官在搞政治，中階的官員沒有士氣，完全提不起勁，然後底下的新進人員流失、流光光，沒有人要來。我先舉新北檢的例子，今（2025）年新北檢9個辭職，後來包括一個調部辦事的檢察官也辭職，共10個辭職耶，一個地檢署才幾個檢察官，一次10個檢察官離開，檢察官的薪水是十幾二十萬一個月，他都不幹了，更不要講各級公務員一堆問題。這次離開的有我以前帶過的學習司法官，他們跟我講的是一連串體系出了大問題，為什麼執政9年會把國家帶向今天這個樣子？我其實是很擔心的。中階的官員為什麼沒有士氣？因為升遷無望啊！上面一堆位子都是由不專業的人來卡最上面的位子，我想如果有公務員在聽我們今天的發言，他就很能夠深切的體會，一堆高階的官員現在都由不專業的人在那邊領軍，由不專業的來領軍專業的，中階公務員沒士氣，上面的人違法，像行政院長違法、違憲，三讀通過法律不執行，然後底下的人只能陪著他這麼幹，這樣子就沒有士氣了，對不對？解凍案已經準備好了，長官叫我不可以送出去，請問一下，中階的官員會有士氣嗎？每個人都知道是為了罷免而不能送出解凍案，但每個人都擔心預算的問題，而長官不讓我送，這是當時一堆公務員跳出來爆料啊！所以為什麼今天會搞成這樣？為什麼執政之後把公務員搞得沒有尊嚴、沒有保障？退休金講好了後來也不給！","我要麻煩各位，因為國家走到今天這樣，尤其數字是不會騙人的，數字是最科學的，我們看到的是報考人數越來越少、越來越少，而中階訓練很紮實的一個一個走掉，像新北檢走掉的大概都是10年左右的檢察官訓練，剛好是體力跟經驗值最衡平的時候，結果一個一個走光光，這個是我對於國家的憂慮，還有各行各業、各個公部門都有一樣的狀況發生。","兩位雖然是民進黨的政務官，但我覺得你們對國家一定也有熱忱，你們看到國家今天變成這樣，我想兩位也會擔心，所以我要提出來的這個就麻煩一下，我有幾個主張再跟兩位報告。第一個，我還是希望依法行政的公務員要被尊重，行政院不要再用預算裁量當藉口，真的，依法該給的待遇、退休金，依法該辦理就辦理，不要什麼都政治算計。當然我知道這個是取決於院長，院長現在既然要跟法制、跟憲法對著幹，那我們也只能期待他有一天能夠迷途知返。第二個，我們希望考試院要重新檢討待遇結構及職涯激勵，包括剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的那個評等，甲等、乙等的問題，我們要讓年輕人看到真的有升遷與轉任機制，讓公職能夠回到有尊嚴的職業選擇。我記得我剛出來當檢察官的那個時代，不管是待遇，不管是受人尊敬，都非常的高，現在我真的看不到了，很多時候反而是我們政治人物把國家帶到今天這樣。再來，我覺得我要跟兩位報告，因為考試院一直不推出來，所以我們這邊會推動政務人員行為基準法，我們要把政治干預及公務體系失信的根源去除掉。我們希望不要讓政治力及違法行政干預到我們整個國家行政體系，否則你再怎麼樣都救不了我們現在公務員很低的士氣。","最後，我還是謝謝兩位，因為兩位真的都是我很敬佩的政務官，希望我今天提的這個東西，兩位能夠協助我們，我們一起把相關的制度予以改善，然後給國家引入更好的公務人員，好不好？謝謝各位。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳委員語重心長，也希望考試院能夠儘速提出政務人員法的相關對案，因為本席也已經在研擬政務人員法，我也會在近期提出，我想這個是大家都很關心的議題，也應該列入你們這個年度的立法計畫裡面。","接下來請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}},{"id":"163970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163970","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb624811bf65d6cb50b1819c05f3ca7f3b91a0e4ffc4b42a1cecbfd08b43458302aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:20:38 - 09:34:17","影片長度":"00:13:39","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T09:20:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T09:34:17+08:00","duration":819,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.11909375,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.62409375,"end":12.872843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":48.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.17096875,"end":54.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.579718750000005,"end":53.001593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.56659375,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.95034375,"end":98.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.32471875,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.05409375,"end":68.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.53909375,"end":69.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.73659375000001,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.20409375,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.14846875,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.50284375000001,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.93659375,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.86784375,"end":99.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.81284375000001,"end":145.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.46159375,"end":106.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.57784375,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.80471875,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.53034375000001,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.77034375000002,"end":156.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.35659375,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.30159375000002,"end":164.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.40221875,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.95034375,"end":188.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.06909375,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.75346875000002,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.01909375000002,"end":216.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.84096875,"end":217.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.02659375000002,"end":218.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.44409375,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.47784375,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.78159375,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.86596875,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.42284375000003,"end":227.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.83096875,"end":230.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.12159375000002,"end":245.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.98846875,"end":246.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.96721875000003,"end":253.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.60284375,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.05096875000004,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.43471875,"end":279.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.48096875000005,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.76721875000004,"end":288.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.32346875,"end":299.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.42721875,"end":316.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.90971875,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.52534375000005,"end":331.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.89221875000004,"end":321.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.18159375000005,"end":366.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.08409375,"end":362.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.37096875000003,"end":362.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.28159375,"end":400.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.84159375,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.17596875000004,"end":395.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.12034375,"end":408.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.50721875000005,"end":440.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.96221875000003,"end":448.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.67096875000004,"end":441.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.69971875000005,"end":445.98659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.92284375,"end":482.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.58846875,"end":506.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.27659375,"end":561.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.63096875,"end":581.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.9653437500001,"end":583.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.9990937499999,"end":582.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.72034375,"end":584.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.2053437500001,"end":631.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.24159375,"end":596.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.29971875,"end":602.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.98284375,"end":640.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.50971875,"end":635.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.07846875,"end":651.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.05721875,"end":643.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.7309687500001,"end":665.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.62534375,"end":652.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.06221875,"end":678.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.44159375,"end":666.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.33846875,"end":691.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.5515937499999,"end":701.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.67221875,"end":735.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.4353437500001,"end":706.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.21159375,"end":734.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.0890937500001,"end":756.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.58784375,"end":787.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.2922187500001,"end":760.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.1272187500001,"end":761.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.33409375,"end":796.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":796.80096875,"end":811.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.5834687500001,"end":813.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.81534375,"end":814.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.09784375,"end":814.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.2365937500001,"end":819.0759687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.271,"end":28.633,"text":"主席麻煩我們的勞動部部長有請洪部長部長早美國關稅雖然還在談判階段可是關稅政策進口的產品的調整還有台幣的匯率的波動還是讓台灣以出國為主出口的為主的製造業受到衝擊我相信部長應該也知道"},{"start":29.614,"end":52.879,"text":"所以今年3月8月勞動部的確推出了一個僱用安定措施跟強化版讓減班休息的勞工可以申請到我們的差額補貼所以我首先我想問部長目前為止通報減班休息的數量大概有多少增長的幅度是不是有趨緩現在最新的數據在10月1號那是"},{"start":56.073,"end":70.312,"text":"最新的是8505是8505那相比於前一期9月16號的時候那是增加1000多那9月16號當天因為我們一個月會公布兩次兩個禮拜公布一次那"},{"start":70.792,"end":98.093,"text":"9月16號當時公布的那一次其實增加大概2400多那到10月1號這次的公布它的增加是大概1100所以確實增加的數字有比9月16號來的低可是還是增加所以我們還是用權力戒備的態度我們不會鬆懈我們也不會輕忽但我們也一直在監測這個數據但確實數據有的時候它會有一些它的上下可是我們可能還要看長期的趨勢"},{"start":100.636,"end":123.795,"text":"謝謝部長的努力剛剛也講說確實有成長可是還是比前一個時間點有減緩可面對關稅的一個微確定性的話預期申請減班休息的數量可能會越來越多所以根據部內的資料目前強化版的雇用安定措施所補助的九大產業就業保險投保人數大概有"},{"start":125.575,"end":145.06,"text":"105萬人那他們是目前美國關稅下最可能受到衝擊的潛在勞工當然不是全部都會受到影響可是還是要看關稅的談判的進度跟結果而定所以現在的強化版預計可以接住多少的勞工勞動部又能夠提供多少的量呢"},{"start":145.88,"end":163.797,"text":"我跟文說明這邊講到的一百零五萬絕對不是這一百零五萬都會受到影響是我知道因為有些看到一百零萬但絕對不是一百零萬都受到影響那其實現在基本上我們並沒有什麼量能上的限制也就是說只要"},{"start":164.997,"end":187.826,"text":"有減班休息的狀況然後企業通報然後勞工朋友來跟我們申請甚至我剛剛我們講到如果有這個勞工朋友來說他們企業沒有通報其實我們也可以把它放入到這個我們的名單裡面那這是剛才陳委員剛才有講到的部分我們會直接把它放到名單裡面那只要放到名單裡面他就可以來跟我們申請強化版的公安訂措施"},{"start":188.086,"end":211.929,"text":"可是部長強化版的僱用安定措施基金來源是救安基金所以如果編入因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算案當中如果這筆特別預算假設沒有通過的話那已經申請減班休息的通報個案的薪資貼補會不會受到影響那勞動部要如何因應跟委員說明"},{"start":213.05,"end":231.812,"text":"強化版公安訂措施的經費來源是來自救保跟特別預算兩個都有可是如果假設我剛剛前面問你說那到底可以接住多少你說都不會都沒有量可是經費沒有考量所以我們現在現在大院也在九樓正在審查這個"},{"start":233.133,"end":253.742,"text":"特別預算我們當然希望爭取我們這一次行政院讓我們編列150億的特別預算能夠順利的通過我想這個因為這個錢真的都是來支持勞工來協助勞工的錢對是很重要的對我們希望真的能夠能夠讓這個順利的然後能夠三讀然後讓勞工朋友有一個更大的支持"},{"start":256.037,"end":267.601,"text":"在這些受到影響申請減班休息的勞工裡邊包括了中高齡的就業者根據勞動部的資料中高齡就業者就45歲以上在製造業中佔全體的42.22%"},{"start":270.402,"end":284.768,"text":"製造業事實上是關稅的重災區一旦企業實施減班休息也就是他們往往會被列為優先的休息名單我們好不容易通過中高齡及高齡者就業促進法希望讓中高齡成為勞動力來源的新選項"},{"start":288.49,"end":304.927,"text":"以解決我們少子化的問題可是他們可能都是而且他們最主要是他們可能都是每一個家庭經濟支柱而且中高齡可能事實上是這時候是負擔最大的孩子可能在念私立大學然後呢家裡的支出如果他還有房貸的話這些都會是一個問題"},{"start":306.008,"end":331.014,"text":"那他需要撫養孩子也可能需要撫養長輩再加上年紀的因素職場本來就很不友善的話如果再因為減班的休息減少收入那就會沒辦法支撐他平常所的一些開銷所以想問部長說這些申請減班休息的勞工當中有多少的中高齡是不是你能夠很充分的去掌握到這個比例"},{"start":332.499,"end":349.647,"text":"我想其實因為如果通報的勞工當然是可以講我們當然是可以去進一步去去確認大家有多少比例是中高齡但是就是剛剛委員講其實講的沒有錯其實我們在這一次相關的移民關稅跟勞工的這個就業措施裡面其實我們特別關注中高齡的問題"},{"start":350.908,"end":365.948,"text":"所以其實在我們10月發布了一個計畫叫做勞工就業通在這個勞工就業通計畫裡面我們也特別把幾個服務整合進來其中一個很重要的就是職務在設計因為如果我們要協助中高齡的勞工失業的話要轉業"},{"start":367.731,"end":393.712,"text":"轉業的時候他們會特別需要比方像植物在設計這樣子的服務來讓他能夠更適應可能一個新的就業環境所以我們特別把像這樣給整合進來那另外其實我們也考慮到這所以我們其實這段時間一些辦訓所以我們也請發安署在辦訓訓練的過程裡面特別針對希望針對多一些是針對中高齡的勞工他們可能現在所需要的一些技能的訓練來去做課程的設計"},{"start":395.353,"end":412.095,"text":"我們這都是特別思考到說那怎麼樣更多顧及到中高齡勞工的狀況我覺得真的要注意因為我去年在質詢的時候針對勞動議題就已經講過說很多55歲以上就被優退表面上叫優退 實際上就是某種程度上資遣"},{"start":412.615,"end":439.829,"text":"對他們很多時候事實上是家庭資助者的話通常不利條件那接下來這個關稅的狀況又是比較多時候事實上製造業的又比較多是中高齡最大衝擊又在中高齡所以我們很擔心所以我也希望勞動部可以去做這樣的一個調查所以也要確定所謂的減班休息是不是真正的雙方合意還是事實上是資方強迫的我覺得"},{"start":440.069,"end":447.14,"text":"如果是強迫的有人來檢舉就是說沒有經過勞工同意的話那這其實就是違反勞基法22條但這是我們會直接開罰的"},{"start":449.156,"end":476.261,"text":"可是有沒有就說這種也很怕的事實上是通常為什麼過去我們的受僱方會比較不敢去做申訴有時候是被點名做記號的所以對他們來講也是有一些壓力所以我是建議說是不是建立我們的減班休息的通報的年齡的分布統計以外然後能夠掌握到我們中高齡的勞工的一個整個通報數量還有能夠定期去做調查"},{"start":476.881,"end":505.486,"text":"來掌握我們的減班休息的落實的一些狀況第三個事實上還是要強化中高齡就業者的主動關懷這個也是我去年一直再三提醒說55歲以上真的我們去了解他們所被優退真的事實上是優退嗎還是事實上是被另外一種支遣的方式只是為了減少因為畢竟如果到的小小主管的時候薪水比較高的話把他優退他再請一個薪水比較低的我覺得都很不利於我們的中高齡的人"},{"start":506.346,"end":526.192,"text":"那再來就是想問是說整個面對職災的勞工政府到底能做什麼因為目前勞工職業災害保險跟保護法裡面在111年的5月1號正式施行之後勞動部在持續推動這個所謂的FARP"},{"start":528.653,"end":540.977,"text":"那跟地方政府來配合關懷勞工那到底這個主動關懷到底是什麼尤其事實上從你們的調查裡面也就是說你們職業災害的失能勞工就業關懷調查就發現說他們平均緩肥職場要12.2個月"},{"start":546.118,"end":568.104,"text":"甚至復工的實際化的協商 植栽的人力都是曠日廢時所以我們想問這110年的調查有它的意義在才會知道有12.2個月可是110年調查之後就不再調查所以想問說關懷調查有沒有要再啟動才能夠了解你的主動關懷到底有沒有辦法落實而且這種關懷到底能不能讓他們"},{"start":570.024,"end":584.039,"text":"能夠是得到因為有數據才能夠有後邊的對應措施所以想問說你這個職業災害失能的勞工就業關懷調查要持續調查嗎因為我們要知道他到底有沒有能夠發揮效用"},{"start":585.553,"end":611.887,"text":"這個跟穆委員說明其實對於職財勞工的關懷我想這件事情是我們一定會持續做的甚至我們包括職安署跟地方的勞政單位其實我們都有相關專業的人力持續在做這個它是用一個個案管理的方式在處理所以它可能不是不一定是一次性的調查對這個部分來說是持續性要做的工作那至於重返職場的時間因為確實不同的勞工他的狀況不一樣"},{"start":614.608,"end":636.584,"text":"有些如果他比較嚴重的他就需要比較久一點的時間有的時候甚至我們也看到一些案例是勞工明明他覺得他還沒有好他還需要持續的在做這個復原的休養的狀況但是資方一直覺得你就趕快上工你趕快上工然後這裡面產生的衝突我們也看到一些案例是這種狀況所以確實這個能夠重返職場的時間有"},{"start":641.201,"end":669.017,"text":"所以部長相對的關懷協助會落差蠻大的你這一個有一個段落叫做關懷協助所以你的主動關懷協助就很重要所以我覺得政府應該發揮主動的服務的精神一定是主動因為我們甚至是用個案管理的方式來做這個關懷那也包括統整相關的資源能夠讓職災勞工可以了解他可以有什麼資源包括就醫的資源 保險的資源或者是哪些部分他其實可以來做使用就是用個案管理的方式為什麼我會去提就用這個案例為此案為例就是說"},{"start":670.297,"end":690.324,"text":"職災的勞工家屬在一審判定的時候不是職災當初你們勞動部也是判定他不是職災可是二審的時候判定卻又是職災那不管最後三審結果為何這個據案發時間已經三千天了請問部長這之間的所有損失都可以申請嗎如果不行的話有沒有其他方式可以幫助職災家屬呢"},{"start":691.644,"end":701.134,"text":"那而且旨在勞工個案主動服務再次指示有沒有主動介入因為剛剛講的關懷協助是這樣蠻重要的所以過去有沒有介入如何質疑"},{"start":703.294,"end":726.782,"text":"還是要跟委員說其實我們的PASS都希望能夠都是主動協助但如果有做的更好的空間那我們也願意來做一些檢討但的確我們PASS的同仁是很辛苦但是有更好的空間我們都願意來檢討那這個案子我們非常非常關注確實他一審和二審的判決不一樣所以我們也跟當時我們也跟這些相關的包括他的協助的團體"},{"start":728.863,"end":745.572,"text":"來跟他們說如果需要做一些重新的檢視我們也很願意來做重新的檢視來做相關的認定部長可能未來真的要更進一步的是如果真的個案能夠及早去介入的話那事實幫助大概就不會要讓他走到司法還要透過"},{"start":746.452,"end":758.368,"text":"我覺得一審二審然後讓他等待三千天最後得到的結果呢假設是最後第三審是實在認定的話真的這些損失到底要跟誰要這個三千天確實蠻長的所以這也是這個勞工很辛苦的地方"},{"start":762.032,"end":787.181,"text":"但是的確在三年前災保法上路以後現在整體的機制是有更完備那包括PASS他要協助掌握跟整合的一些服務也更完備那我們但我們最近其實也在做相關的檢討能夠給職債勞工什麼更多的制度性的支持那我們會盡快來把給職債勞工更制度性的支持我們會盡快的來這個政策研擬到一個階段我們就會來公佈"},{"start":787.621,"end":812.313,"text":"所以最後我的建議就是請盤點FAP專業服務人員的人數進行適當的分配還有檢討現行的給付機制及時保障我們的勞權還有縮短真的行政程序有時候聽說派案通報之後派案還要三個月所以讓他們可以加速重返職場如果他們能夠身體狀況OK的話能夠重返職場的話應該加速我們都願意來檢討謝謝副長 謝謝"},{"start":817.687,"end":818.411,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":89,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時20分）主席，麻煩請勞動部部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。美國關稅雖然還在談判階段，可是關稅政策、進口產品的調整，還有臺幣匯率的波動，還是讓臺灣以出口為主的製造業受到衝擊，我相信部長應該也知道，今年3月、8月勞動部的確也推出了強化版僱用安定措施，讓減班休息的勞工可以申請到差額補貼，所以首先我想問部長，目前為止通報減班休息的數量大概有多少，增長的幅度是不是有趨緩？"],["洪部長申翰：現在最新的數據統計到10月1號是8,505，相比前一期9月16號的時候是增加一千多，因為我們一個月會公布兩次，每兩個禮拜公布一次。9月16號當時公布的那一次其實大概增加兩千四百多，到10月1號這次公布的大概增加1,100……"],["林委員月琴：所以有趨緩的……"],["洪部長申翰：增加的數字確實有比9月16號來得低，可是還是有增加，所以我們還是用全力戒備的態度，我們不會鬆懈，也不會輕忽，我們也一直在監測這個數據，數據有時候會有上下的情況，我們可能還要看長期的趨勢。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長的努力。剛才講說確實有成長，可是還是比前一個時間點減緩。面對關稅不確定性，預期申請減班休息的數量可能會越來越多，根據部內的資料，目前強化版僱用安定措施所補助的9大產業就業保險投保人數大概有105萬人，他們是目前在美國關稅下最可能受到衝擊的潛在勞工，當然不是全部都會受到影響，還是要看關稅談判的進度跟結果而定，所以強化版預計可以接住多少勞工？勞動部又能夠提供多少量能？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，這邊講到的105萬，絕對不是這105萬都會受到影響。"],["林委員月琴：是，我知道。"],["洪部長申翰：因為有些人看到105萬……但是絕對不是105萬都會受到影響，現在基本上我們並沒有什麼量能上的限制，也就是說，只要有減班休息的狀況，企業通報然後勞工朋友來跟我們申請，甚至我剛剛有講到，如果有勞工朋友來說他的企業沒有通報，我們也可以把他放入到我們的名單裡面，這是陳委員剛才有講到的部分，我們會直接把他放名單裡面，只要放到名單裡面，他就可以來跟我們申請強化版的僱用安定措施。"],["林委員月琴：部長，可是強化版的僱用安定措施基金來源是就安基金，如果編入因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案當中，這筆特別預算假設沒有通過的話，那已經申請減班休息的通報個案的薪資貼補會不會受到影響？勞動部要如何因應？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，強化版僱用安定措施的經費來源來自於就保跟特別預算，兩個都有。"],["林委員月琴：我剛才前面問你說到底可以接住多少，你說沒有量能的考量，可是經費也要考量。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，所以現在大院9樓也正在審查這個特別預算，我們當然希望爭取，這次行政院讓我們編列150億的特別預算，能夠順利地通過，因為這個錢真的都是來支持勞工、協助勞工的錢。"],["林委員月琴：對，是很重要的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望能夠順利地三讀，讓勞工朋友有個更大的支持。"],["林委員月琴：在這些受到影響而申請減班休息的勞工裡面，包括了中高齡的就業者，根據勞動部的資料，中高齡就業者，也就是45歲以上，在製造業中占全體的42.22%，製造業事實上是關稅的重災區，一旦企業實施減班休息，他們往往會被列為優先休息名單，我們好不容易通過中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法，希望讓中高齡成為勞動力來源的新選項，以解決我們少子化的問題。最主要的是他們可能都是每一個家庭的經濟支柱，而且對中高齡者來說，可能這時候是負擔最大的時候，孩子可能在念私立大學，家裡的支出，如果他還有房貸的話，這些都會是問題，他需要撫養孩子，也可能需要撫養長輩，再加上年紀的因素，職場本來就很不友善的話，如果再因為減班休息而減少收入，就會沒辦法支撐他平常的一些開銷，所以想問部長，這些申請減班休息的勞工當中，有多少的中高齡者？你是不是有很充分地去掌握到這個比例？"],["洪部長申翰：通報的勞工我們當然是可以進一步去確認大概有多少比例是中高齡，剛剛委員講得沒有錯，我們在這一次相關因應關稅跟勞工的就業措施裡面，其實我們特別關注中高齡的問題，所以我們10月發布了一個計畫，叫作勞工就業通，在這個勞工就業通計畫裡面，我們也特別把幾個服務整合進來，其中一個很重要的就是職務再設計，如果我們要協助中高齡勞工失業的話，他們要轉業，轉業的時候，他們會特別需要比方說像職務再設計這樣子的服務，來讓他能夠更適應新的就業環境，所以我們特別把像這樣的服務給整合進來。","另外，我們也考慮到這個因素，我們這段時間有辦一些訓練，所以我們也請發展署在訓練的過程裡面，特別多針對中高齡的勞工他們可能現在需要的一些技能訓練，來去做課程的設計，我們這都是特別思考到怎麼樣能更顧及到中高齡勞工的狀況。"],["林委員月琴：對，我覺得真的要注意，因為我去年在質詢的時候，針對勞動議題就已經講過說很多55歲以上的人被優退，表面上叫優退，事實上就是某種程度上的資遣，如果他們是家庭支柱者的話，條件通常很不利。接下來就關稅的狀況而言，製造業中比較多是中高齡，最大衝擊又在中高齡，我們很擔心，我也希望勞動部可以去做調查，也要確定減班休息是不是真正的雙方合意，還是資方強迫的？我覺得……"],["洪部長申翰：如果是強迫的，有人來檢舉說沒有經過勞工同意的話，這其實就是違反勞基法第二十二條，我們會直接開罰的。"],["林委員月琴：為什麼過去通常受僱方會比較不敢去申訴？有時候是怕被點名、做記號，所以對他們來講，也是有一些壓力，我是建議是不是建立減班休息的通報年齡分布統計以外，能夠掌握到中高齡的勞工通報數量，還有能夠定期去調查，來掌握我們減班休息落實的狀況。","第三個，還是要強化中高齡就業者的主動關懷，這也是我去年再三提醒針對55歲以上的勞工，你們有沒有去了解他們被優退，事實上真的是優退嗎？還是事實上是另外一種資遣的方式？因為如果當到了小主管的時候，薪水比較高的話，若把他優退，再請一個薪水比較低的，我覺得這都很不利於中高齡的人。","再來想問面對職災的勞工，政府到底能做什麼？因為目前勞工職業災害保險及保護法裡面，在111年5月1號正式施行之後，勞動部持續推動FARP，跟地方政府來配合關懷勞工，這個主動關懷到底是什麼？尤其從你們職業災害的失能勞工就業關懷調查就發現說，他們平均返回職場要12.2個月，甚至復工計畫的協商、職災的認定都是曠日費時。110年的調查有它的意義在，才會知道返回職場要12.2個月，可是110年調查之後就不再調查，所以想問說關懷調查有沒有要再啟動？這樣才能夠了解你的主動關懷到底有沒有辦法落實，這種關懷到底能不能讓他們得到幫助？因為有數據才能有後面的對應措施，所以想問職業災害失能的勞工就業關懷調查要持續調查嗎？因為我要知道它到底有沒有發揮效用。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，對於職災勞工的關懷，我想這件事情我們一定會持續做的，甚至包括職安署跟地方的勞政單位，其實我們都有相關專業的人力持續在做，這是用個案管理的方式在處理，所以它可能不一定是一次性的調查，這部分是持續性要做的工作。","至於重返職場的時間，因為確實不同的勞工，他的狀況不一樣，有些如果比較嚴重的，他就需要比較久一點的時間，有的時候甚至我們也看到一些案例，勞工明明他覺得還沒有好，他還需要復原、休養，但是資方一直覺得你就趕快上工，這裡面產生的衝突，我們也看到一些案例是這種狀況，所以確實能夠重返職場的時間會落差蠻大的。"],["林委員月琴：部長，這裡有一個段落叫關懷協助，所以你的主動關懷協助就很重要，所以我覺得政府應該發揮主動服務的精神。"],["洪部長申翰：一定是主動，我們甚至是用個案管理的方式來做關懷，也包括統整相關的資源，讓職災勞工可以了解他可以有什麼資源，包括就醫的資源、保險的資源，或者是哪些部分他其實可以來做使用，這是用個案管理的方式。"],["林委員月琴：部長，我為什麼會去提？就用此案為例，職災的勞工家屬在一審判定的時候不是職災，當初你們勞動部也是判定它不是職災，可是二審的時候判定卻又是職災，不管最後三審結果為何，這距案發時間已經3,000天了。請問部長，這之間的所有損失都可以申請嗎？如果不行的話，有沒有其他方式可以幫助職災家屬呢？而且職災勞工個案主動服務，在此時有沒有主動介入？因為剛剛講的關懷協助，事實上蠻重要的，所以過去有沒有介入，如何指引？"],["洪部長申翰：還是要跟委員報告，其實我們的PAS都希望能夠處在主動協助，但如果有做得更好的空間，我們也願意來做一些檢討，但的確我們PAS的同仁是很辛苦，但是有更好的空間，我們都願意來檢討。針對這個案子，我們非常非常關注，確實一審跟二審的判決不一樣，所以我們也跟這些相關的包括他的協助的團體來跟他們說，如果需要做一些重新的檢視，我們也很願意來做重新的檢視並做相關的認定。"],["林委員月琴：部長，可能未來真的要更進一步的是，如果真的個案能夠及早去介入的話，事實的幫助大概就不會要讓他走到司法，還要透過一審、二審，讓他等待3,000天，最後得到的結果，假設最後第三審是職災認定的話，這些損失到底要跟誰要？"],["洪部長申翰：這個3,000天確實蠻長的……"],["林委員月琴：對，快將近10年的時間。"],["洪部長申翰：所以這也是勞工很辛苦的地方，但是的確在3年前災保法上路以後，現在整體的機制是有更完備，包括PAS要協助掌握跟整合的一些服務也更完備，但我們最近其實也在做相關的檢討，能夠給職災勞工什麼更多制度性的支持，我們會儘快給職災勞工更多制度性的支持，我們會儘快將政策研擬到一個階段後就會公布。"],["林委員月琴：好。所以最後我的建議就是，請盤點FAP專業服務人員的人數、進行適當的分配，還要檢討現行的給付機制並即時保障我們的勞權，還有縮短行政程序，有時候聽說通報之後，派案還要3個月，所以讓他們可以加速重返職場，如果他們身體狀況OK並能夠重返職場的話，應該加速。"],["洪部長申翰：這我們都願意來檢討。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員發言。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163969","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb6260219518185ecb99819c05f3ca7f3b91a0e4ffc4b42a1cecbfd08b43458302aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:09:30 - 09:20:29","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T09:09:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T09:20:29+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.6253437500000003,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.227218750000002,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.78409375,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.812843750000006,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.710968750000006,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.73096875,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.00409375000001,"end":64.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.23596875,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.28659375000001,"end":65.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.33721875,"end":67.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.34471875000001,"end":101.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.73221875,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.74909375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.49471875,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.15659375000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.88596875,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.71284375,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.02721875,"end":141.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.34221875,"end":196.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.30409375000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.31971875000002,"end":208.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.45409375000003,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.20034375,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.12409375000001,"end":241.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.76534375000003,"end":270.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.07721875000004,"end":289.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.97721875,"end":293.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.00221875,"end":292.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.62221875,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.66971875,"end":320.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.84159375,"end":327.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.46096875,"end":331.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.59096875,"end":341.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.95221875000004,"end":360.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.90284375000005,"end":367.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.19284375,"end":369.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.68221875,"end":374.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.47034375000004,"end":383.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.58284375000005,"end":416.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.02909375,"end":440.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.39284375000005,"end":438.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.23659375000005,"end":457.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.03784375000004,"end":442.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.16659375,"end":464.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.15659375,"end":465.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.99596875000003,"end":471.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.85596875000005,"end":491.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.11034375,"end":491.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.12721875000005,"end":491.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.46471875000003,"end":493.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.15221875000003,"end":517.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.46471875,"end":527.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.72909375,"end":531.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.74596875,"end":527.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9653437500001,"end":528.4209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3572187500001,"end":533.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.51284375,"end":540.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.84096875,"end":546.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.8147187500001,"end":566.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.2084687500001,"end":586.6397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.5047187499999,"end":589.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.08659375,"end":589.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.52534375,"end":590.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.4028437500001,"end":595.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.10659375,"end":600.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.9834687499999,"end":623.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.5053437500001,"end":611.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.66346875,"end":626.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.04721875,"end":625.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.3803437500001,"end":643.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.22159375,"end":643.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.94721875,"end":644.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.63909375,"end":644.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.9428437500001,"end":653.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.07784375,"end":645.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.51971875,"end":653.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.5022187500001,"end":658.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.97,"end":6.259,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長"},{"start":14.982,"end":33.983,"text":"我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到美國指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令"},{"start":34.944,"end":44.117,"text":"所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題"},{"start":46.414,"end":64.344,"text":"當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個"},{"start":66.066,"end":81.822,"text":"產業因應的做法應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了"},{"start":82.563,"end":100.849,"text":"部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎"},{"start":102.979,"end":116.399,"text":"巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明齁其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台灣市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查"},{"start":117.961,"end":140.577,"text":"那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況"},{"start":141.58,"end":158.383,"text":"我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個捷安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞啊讓人家非常的震驚"},{"start":159.404,"end":182.997,"text":"那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重"},{"start":183.997,"end":210.571,"text":"扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢"},{"start":212.31,"end":239.841,"text":"其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的"},{"start":241.84,"end":270.172,"text":"部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣令是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬"},{"start":271.152,"end":293.651,"text":"那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈"},{"start":297.054,"end":312.756,"text":"也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障"},{"start":313.957,"end":340.462,"text":"勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個這個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔啦不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在的就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有這個財力跟能力去幫這個移工去付這筆費用但是那個家庭的這個"},{"start":342.011,"end":367.18,"text":"家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的"},{"start":368.3,"end":381.447,"text":"部長您這個想法 我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那"},{"start":383.683,"end":404.949,"text":"我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面"},{"start":406.189,"end":416.586,"text":"其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化植品的部分"},{"start":417.293,"end":438.059,"text":"如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理"},{"start":438.399,"end":459.957,"text":"那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面而且我們會具體的作為往這個方向努力那部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎"},{"start":467.065,"end":493.607,"text":"就大家都說股市不斷的創高嘛創新高那景氣很好你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業那現在可能過去也因為這個中國的貿易傾銷那這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的所以產業之間的差別是有的"},{"start":494.147,"end":517.563,"text":"因為現在除了半導體之外 其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後 無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖 嚇死人 就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許 就是9月更嚴重 越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工 那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送"},{"start":518.965,"end":532.2,"text":"所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛 雇主身上不是 現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個"},{"start":534.688,"end":549.562,"text":"減慢休息的話 向地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是"},{"start":550.563,"end":565.313,"text":"就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解調查嗎"},{"start":566.433,"end":589.214,"text":"跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單嘛就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是"},{"start":589.674,"end":609.929,"text":"所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽"},{"start":610.95,"end":626.291,"text":"其實會有這樣的狀況那我們跟他比方說上個禮拜我們其實就到中部跟企業我自己去跟他座談我跟大家說我們講很清楚我們絕對你通報的話我們絕對不會公佈個別企業的名字因為對等關稅是大家都受害者嘛"},{"start":626.691,"end":652.438,"text":"對 我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長"},{"start":657.189,"end":657.67,"text":"謝謝陳昭智委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":52,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時9分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早安。部長，我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪，但是20天後，也就是9月25號，我們看到美國指控巨大有強迫勞動，而且發出了暫扣令。我想請問部長，9月5號您跟院長去巨大機械主要是談哪些議題？有沒有討論到移工的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是在要協助企業因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的脈絡下去訪問巨大公司，現場也包括很多的自行車業，所以當時的座談我們當然是談到整體產業因應的作法。"],["陳委員昭姿：應該就是為了關稅的應對，但是沒有想到美國就發出了這樣的指控跟暫扣令，美國海關指控巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動有五大罪狀，幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了。部長，您大概知道這些事吧？包含濫用弱勢處境、惡劣的工作與生活條件、債務束縛、扣留工資及超時工作，我知道勞動部跟臺中市勞工局有去會勘，請問會勘的結果如何？美國的這些指控是正確的嗎？巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，應該是9月26號時本部有跟臺中市勞工局一起進場，但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查，我們進場的目的主要是希望……也當然了解一些狀況，希望協助巨大公司提出一個更好的改善方案，也希望透過改善方案來儘快解除美方的暫扣令狀況。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我是覺得有點遺憾，因為巨大過去生產的捷安特自行車，我們覺得是國際品牌，而且大家都不否認它是臺灣之光，可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面，卻是強迫勞動的負面新聞，讓人家非常的震驚！我有去勞動部官網上違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋，老實說巨大過去有違反勞動法令的紀錄其實不多，查到的只有4筆是違反職安法相關的紀錄。盧秀燕市長也說近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些，就是都合格的意思，但是美國指控的很嚴重──扣留工資、超時工作，但都沒有在我們自己的官網上看到有這些紀錄，或是去查核的時候……部長，我必須請教，為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們的差這麼大？請問美國是如何對巨大進行調查的？到底是移工去控訴的，還是美國有派人實際到現場去看呢？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢，不管是我們的供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌，也包括我們很重要的貿易夥伴國家，的確這段時間是越來越重視強迫勞動的問題，相關的認定其實也越來越強化，我們是有看到這個趨勢的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁，但因為這個指控其實是滿大的，雖然巨大被美國發出這樣的暫扣令是危機，可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化為轉機，例如臺灣目前我必須這樣形容──獨步全球的移工仲介費，你還沒有上任的時候，它就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞權，我們現在已經知道巨大跟另外一家自行車的大廠美利達，都實施零付費政策，就是移工本身不需要再付仲介費或服務費，而是由雇主來支付的。部長，你認為這個作法是正面的嗎？會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎？就是它現在採取的步驟是這樣的。"],["洪部長申翰：確實，現在國際上的供應鏈，也包括一些品牌，越來越多實施所謂零付費的政策，這也是我們剛才說，其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化，所以我覺得要往一個更有利於保障勞工的方向，我們也都希望儘量來協助跟輔導企業，往一個對勞工權益保障更好的方向。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個零付費其實現在是雇主在承擔，不是真的零付費，就是仲介費還是存在的。"],["洪部長申翰：是，就是移工相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我覺得產業界的雇主或許比較有財力跟能力去幫移工付這筆費用，但是家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力，所以其實長期以來，從許部長在的時候，我就希望大家都往直聘、往政府對政府的方向，因為其他國家也這樣做了，就是不要有仲介費這個部分，我們稱為剝削，因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了債務，有的甚至超過10萬元，所以對他來說，我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢不見的，部長，您的想法呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，其實部裡面接下來也會針對直聘制度做很大程度的檢討，我們也會提出一個強化直聘的計畫，我們這段時間在整體檢討移工政策，裡面也包括一個很重要的部分，就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程的角色跟功能，這是很重要的事情。直聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分，所以其實我們這次在明年的計畫，包括明年的預算書裡面，我們接下來會有一個延攬中心，在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能，就是希望能夠強化直聘的部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，如果往這個方向走，我們都會支持，因為我們競爭力不夠，現在巴氏量表又有某個程度的開放，你也多次說過招募移工有困難，那就從源頭、從制度面去解決，為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工？其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高，一定是要在制度、源頭去處理，我覺得這件事是很重要的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們一定會越來越重視直聘，也會在直聘上面投注更多的資源，尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能做出來。我覺得這部分一直是我們在這段時間檢討移工政策一個非常非常重要的目標，我們的努力都擺在這件事情上面，而且我們會有具體的作為。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，希望部長往這個方向努力。","部長，我想請教你有關關稅衝擊的部分，你覺得現在的景氣好嗎？大家都說股市不斷地創新高，景氣很好，你認同嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，其實現在我們一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的，可是比方說我們有些傳統產業，可能過去因為中國的貿易傾銷，也可能因為這段時間關稅或者匯率的影響，的確現在是比較辛苦的，所以產業之間的差別是有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你說的是正確的，因為現在除了半導體之外，其他的產業大概都慘兮兮，因為4月川普公布了對等關稅之後，無薪假人數不斷攀升，你看我這個圖，嚇死人了！就是往上攀升，9月甚至更嚴重，越來越嚴重！很多傳統產業雇主也是默許員工去兼職跑外送。部長，我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施，但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在雇主身上嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，現在基本上如果企業有向地方政府通報減班休息的話，其實勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的僱用安定措施。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，您談到通報，我們現在就是有被陳情，有些公司沒有通報，或是不配合，或是刻意隱瞞，當然他們有他們的困難，但是這個事情確實發生了，不曉得勞動部在面對即使被減班也拿不到補助，就是沒有把事實反映出來的這個部分，你要怎麼處理？就是有關被放無薪假的勞工如果被隱匿的話，你們有辦法去了解或調查嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為其實相關的補助措施還是要知道它的名單、資料，才有辦法給予補助，我們的確希望企業要通報，所以我們現在也一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報，有些企業可能過去會擔心它通報的話，是不是名單會被公布。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報，所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情，你是不是想個辦法，看有沒有什麼方法去了解？因為通報是被動的，就是你告訴我，那我就相信你都會告訴我。"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業……因為我剛才說，其實有些企業會擔心它如果通報，名字會不會被公布，會不會更影響它企業的聲譽。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，我了解他們的顧慮，但是……"],["洪部長申翰：其實會有這樣的狀況，比方說上個禮拜，我們就到中部跟企業座談，我們講得很清楚，我跟大家說：「你通報的話，我們絕對不會公布個別企業的名字」。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為對等關稅大家都是受害者嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們絕對不會公布企業的名字，因為現在大家是要共渡這個難關，但是還是很希望企業如果有減班休息的狀況就來通報，因為這個會影響後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等權益，其實如果它通報的話，勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的。"],["陳委員昭姿：勞工也可以？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長！部長，我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點，希望你身體沒有微恙，多多保重！"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員發言。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}},{"id":"163968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb629bfd73d47f7a6d6a119d4e8153da54efa0e4ffc4b42a1cec857e8946a4dbda255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:15:05 - 09:29:35","影片長度":"00:14:30","會議時間":"2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-09","start_time":"2025-10-09T09:15:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-09T09:29:35+08:00","duration":870,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-4-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.57471875,"end":5.177843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.30346875,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":47.939093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.00409375,"end":37.088468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.10784375,"end":49.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.37346875,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.60096875,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.60471875,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.79346875,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.73846875,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.65784375,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.78409375000001,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.84721875000001,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.30659375,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.66471875,"end":79.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.60534375,"end":77.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.74034375000001,"end":77.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.20409375,"end":83.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.81534375000001,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.44596875,"end":100.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.23034375,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.53784375000001,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.34721875000001,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.65909375000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.56971875,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.94471875,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.78409375000001,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.56409375000001,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.17534375,"end":136.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.60034375,"end":138.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.72221875,"end":144.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.23971875,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.95659375,"end":159.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.80346875,"end":161.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.06909375,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.27534375000002,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.86159375,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.37971875000002,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.78846875000002,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.67409375,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.37409375000001,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.08159375000002,"end":190.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.93784375,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.73034375,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":197.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.82284375,"end":198.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.64971875,"end":206.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.07034375,"end":210.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.90534375000001,"end":210.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.74909375000001,"end":212.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.06534375,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.16034375,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.17721875,"end":225.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.22784375,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.30346875,"end":234.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.01534375000003,"end":238.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.03221875000003,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.93034375000002,"end":242.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.30096875,"end":243.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.02659375000002,"end":244.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.83659375000002,"end":246.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.51971875,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.80221875,"end":255.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":274.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.27784375,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.23284375000003,"end":275.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.11034375,"end":297.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.59534375000004,"end":277.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.57096875,"end":310.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.75034375,"end":311.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.17221875,"end":311.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.30721875,"end":312.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.97784375000003,"end":319.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.25971875000005,"end":327.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.14096875,"end":322.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.47784375000003,"end":326.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.26659375,"end":330.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.51096875,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.94534375,"end":333.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.12971875,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.74471875,"end":370.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.84221875000003,"end":371.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.49596875000003,"end":373.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.82909375,"end":390.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.61534375,"end":396.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.72846875000005,"end":400.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.61846875000003,"end":399.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.89221875000004,"end":402.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.88346875,"end":405.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.29221875,"end":428.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.94284375,"end":433.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.46534375000005,"end":468.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.76784375000005,"end":473.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.53909375,"end":474.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.79221875,"end":478.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.31471875000005,"end":480.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.69846875,"end":487.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.71409375,"end":489.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.25409375000004,"end":503.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.39159375,"end":500.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.55159375000005,"end":503.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.83409375,"end":505.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.92659375000005,"end":508.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.54659375000006,"end":511.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.18346875000003,"end":509.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.92159375000006,"end":511.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.22534375000004,"end":523.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.25284375,"end":526.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.07534375,"end":526.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.3115937499999,"end":534.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.15096875,"end":528.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.25159375,"end":532.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.10784375,"end":536.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.89221875,"end":537.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.46596875,"end":538.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9553437500001,"end":541.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.7734687500001,"end":545.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.5872187500001,"end":559.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.1059687500001,"end":546.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.53846875,"end":560.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.1965937500001,"end":584.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.0578437500001,"end":591.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3403437500001,"end":585.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.1628437500001,"end":587.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.7865937500001,"end":593.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.7903437500001,"end":595.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.1909687500001,"end":596.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.35534375,"end":598.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8403437500001,"end":604.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.4265937499999,"end":600.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.2703437499999,"end":601.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.96596875,"end":616.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.8628437500001,"end":620.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.7947187500001,"end":632.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.77159375,"end":635.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.34096875,"end":638.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.7834687500001,"end":642.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.23471875,"end":649.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.9853437500001,"end":643.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.76159375,"end":644.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.0559687500001,"end":655.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.3503437500001,"end":659.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.2990937500001,"end":663.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.28159375,"end":667.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.1628437500001,"end":672.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.5334687500001,"end":677.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.11909375,"end":679.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.61659375,"end":695.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.3147187500001,"end":697.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.5547187500001,"end":704.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.67596875,"end":708.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.45596875,"end":723.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.74471875,"end":725.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.7065937500001,"end":726.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.33096875,"end":743.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.3915937500001,"end":744.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":744.43784375,"end":747.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.1840937500001,"end":753.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.8797187499999,"end":753.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.33096875,"end":753.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.3984687500001,"end":753.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.5334687500001,"end":756.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.0603437500001,"end":759.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.22034375,"end":764.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.0928437500002,"end":775.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.82534375,"end":779.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.55096875,"end":778.0190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.39034375,"end":785.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.1997187500001,"end":783.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.08971875,"end":785.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.6128437500001,"end":834.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":786.25409375,"end":787.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.85409375,"end":835.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.61346875,"end":836.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":838.6172187500001,"end":840.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":840.91221875,"end":841.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":841.33409375,"end":842.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":841.5703437500001,"end":844.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.91596875,"end":847.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":847.40909375,"end":847.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":847.4765937500001,"end":847.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.26971875,"end":852.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.8259687500001,"end":856.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.28096875,"end":868.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":867.64221875,"end":867.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":867.67596875,"end":867.9965937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.012,"end":29.741,"text":"來 謝謝主席 麻煩有請秘書長委員長秘書長早警察流言人士條例在今年4月25號總統已經公佈生效了這是一個三讀通過總統公佈有效的法律之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間當中請教權敘部的官員他明確的表示"},{"start":30.861,"end":53.96,"text":"說考試院會依法行政那目前正在有關於進行電腦系統重新的準備需要一些時間那所以今年12月底以前針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變這個沒有改變沒有改變現在持續在進行當中這個行政上的工作我們都在準備"},{"start":55.216,"end":78.806,"text":"所以12月以前會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定還在激發是嗎計畫上是這樣那個部長這邊應該也沒有問題這個時程沒有改變嗎沒有改變下一個問題我們之前在討論的都是之前已經退休的因為法律有變更退休的所得替代率變更所以要重新計算"},{"start":80.305,"end":108.402,"text":"那不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了我在4月25號以後申請退休 譬如今年夏天今年夏天7月或8月的時候我申請退休那這個時候選區部針對法律生效了以後他所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法應該是依照新法 依照新法確定依照新法嗎確定依照新法嗎你們核定函是按照新法計法所得替代率嗎"},{"start":109.36,"end":138.351,"text":"我是不是請市部長來做可以可以請因為我現在吼我必須講個比較直接的啦我在準備這個題目的時候我有請教我們立法院最近這兩個月退休的警察同仁那因為平常跟他們有互動所以我就關心這個事但是他們跟我反映的事情是說法律生效了以後退休的人他收到了審定函還是按照舊法不是按照新法所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來"},{"start":139.775,"end":164.983,"text":"但是你們說是用新法 那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎 還是怎麼樣那我跟委員報告 我們對於新退休的同仁本來就是兩個法律根據原來的退服法 我們核多少然後根據調整的警察人士條例 會核多少所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩個事情同時說明清楚兩個審定函同時說明清楚一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情OK 好 那"},{"start":165.936,"end":186.973,"text":"他從審定含生效了以後所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算應該是講說如果根據退伏法應該支的就是馬上發給但是因為警察人士條例的差額這部分我們就先審定你應該拿多少但是那個差額就等那個核定完以後他會補差額"},{"start":189.33,"end":206.631,"text":"對不起我聽不懂你發給一個人他退休的時候退休金領多少錢的審定函對他基本上是一個行政處分對沒錯那個行政處分他本身所發生的效率範圍到底是按照新法計算退休金還是按照舊法計算退休金"},{"start":207.096,"end":233.539,"text":"我跟委員報告就是那個審定法從此說明兩件事是我知道就法你多少你說明欄怎麼講都OK 剛剛你已經說明過了我說那個行政處分對外部的法律世界發生法律效力的退休金是按照新法計算還是就法計算我就說他兩個都包括那如果兩個都包括包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嗎這樣說沒有錯嗎"},{"start":235.12,"end":246.173,"text":"那雖然對外發生法律效力但是他現在針對新法所通過的那個退休金他現在領不到是嗎對為什麼因為那個還沒有計算出來"},{"start":247.6,"end":264.746,"text":"新法的還沒有計算出來因為新法有那所替代80%所以我們在那審定函裡面有特別特別交代一個程序我們只是程序交代這樣好了啦 就是說你們在發那個審定函的時候不要涉及到任何人的個資譬如說那警察叫什麼名字身分證字號幾號"},{"start":267.087,"end":286.578,"text":"他年紀這個全部都不用你所講的兩個部分的那個審定函你會後可不可以提供給我因為我現在覺得很困惑啦因為警察同仁跟我反應說不是三讀通過了嗎三讀通過不是按照新法嗎那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金"},{"start":287.638,"end":312.036,"text":"這個是他們現在他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益啊是立法院三讀通過的法律啊當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰他可能自己以為他是大法官他有他的法律見解 不關你們考試院的事但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政只有這件事情而已你確定給他們的函上面有依照刑法計算的然後等你們"},{"start":313.197,"end":327.144,"text":"公事處理完了以後電腦系統完了以後該補給他們的都會補給他們是嗎因為後面的錢並不是我們退補基金支的那個就是有就是根據法律應該是內政部那邊去支的所以要等那邊"},{"start":328.525,"end":345.659,"text":"預算編列完成他們才補到差額那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情啦因為這些公務員對於國家的公法上金錢債權不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別啦這個是行政法的ABC啦我想不用特別解釋應該都清楚啦只是到時候"},{"start":346.969,"end":371.605,"text":"該依法編列的預算沒有編列那導致國家的公法上金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話而引發進一步後續的行政訴訟甚至大規模的集體訴訟在取得勝訴確定判決了以後對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上面的強制執行走到那一步 我必須要說啦就很難看了"},{"start":372.557,"end":400.661,"text":"就很難看了那個是政府的失職啦那當然我希望行政院可以迷途知返這件事不要再發生然後第二件事情是公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義由誰來加以解釋我講的不是具體個案的事實認定喔是法律適用如果不是通案性的一個解釋是由主管機關 我們權序部會做解釋由主管機關 權序部來加以解釋嗎好 來 我來請教一下"},{"start":401.977,"end":426.634,"text":"之前啊我在這邊公開質疑啊之前擔任民進黨中常委後來接任續產會的董事長年薪將近300萬的書字分有沒有行政人員中立法的適用答案是有 我已經拿得到答案是有那當然在個案的追究上我就覺得很奇怪中央續產會很閒嗎"},{"start":429.148,"end":453.518,"text":"領一年將近三百萬結果跑去搞大罷免上班都不用上班真的很閒嗎牽涉到具體個案認定的部分人事長率先表態這件事情不應該不應該這樣做不應該發生但是取決於他有請假沒有請假所以這個就會牽涉到主管機關也就是具體個案事實認定農業部回函給我"},{"start":454.638,"end":478.44,"text":"說7月18號到7月25號蘇志芬董事長已經請假那因為請假了請假他要去做什麼樣的事情那個就是他政治參與活動的自由沒有違法對於農業部所表達這樣子一個法規上面的立場是不是也是玄敘部的立場就是公務人員他只要有請假譬如說今天星期四"},{"start":479.366,"end":503.112,"text":"我請假我沒有領國家的薪水那我要去參與大罷免的活動這個是公務人員他們的政治自由是嗎我跟委員報告根據中立法因為他是屬於准用的對象那准用的對象裡面有些是屬於呢你任何時間都不應該做的有些是你可以請假做的而且什麼活動你可以做什麼活動你不可以做這我知道"},{"start":503.852,"end":522.875,"text":"我們通案檢視這樣 那至於這個個案本身到底是什麼狀況我現在沒有要跟你講個案了現在我在講的原則就是公務人員我只要有請假就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動基本的法律原則是不是這樣還是只有對書字分是這樣"},{"start":524.301,"end":535.72,"text":"如果他是屬於請假但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到譬如說運用到公共資源什麼之類的在法律裡面有這樣一個規定對所有的公務人員都一樣嘛"},{"start":537.094,"end":559.189,"text":"對吧 所有公務人員一體適用沒有 這個原則很重要啊就是看來是有一些基本那個不同的法條會框進來啦是啦 我了解啦但是我現在在講的是說其實我只要你講一個立場啦這個事情不是蘇志飛有特權啦是所有的公務人員你要請假的時候只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定這本來就是你的政治參與自由嘛沒有錯"},{"start":560.25,"end":582.79,"text":"那你大大方方說是就好了讓所有的公務人員心裡都有數嘛大家以後休假的時候都有政治參與的自由嘛不用擔心被扣上一個違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子嘛或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨不能去幫在野黨幫執政黨沒事幫在野黨可能會出事不要出現這樣的狀況就好了嘛"},{"start":584.171,"end":597.599,"text":"我們中立法就是說 請假是你的一個權益 但是你在參與政治活動也不能違反中立法裡面相關的規定那如果沒有請假呢沒有請假那就就是 就會有問題"},{"start":598.888,"end":620.019,"text":"沒有請假就會有問題嘛沒有關係這個不牽涉到權序部的職權啊我到時候再請農業部繼續追啊農業部說他7月18號到25號是請假但我現在看啊他公開在上班的時間這上班的時間呢7月10號 7月11號全部都是上班日啊"},{"start":620.879,"end":648.46,"text":"在臉書上面公開發文啊倡議大惡霸在上班的時間上面在臉書上面公開發文倡議大惡霸這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法如果是上班的時間如果是上班 這個確定是上班的時間對 他沒有請假因為個案我不清楚沒有關係 你只要表達這個原則就好了啦具體的個案 接下來農業部要去做處理時間的關係啊 最後一個問題"},{"start":650.14,"end":679.264,"text":"之前我一直很關心考機的制度因為考機的制度攸關於全中華民國的公務員我們希望一個考機的制度去獎勵認真負責的人而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理抱大腿的人我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則但問題是我們過去的考機制度非常的不合理列甲等的比例不於75%那同時官等越大甲等的比例越高"},{"start":680.68,"end":708.024,"text":"我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候我說這個考機制度要不要改每一個從院長副院長到考試委員全部都提出強烈的批判全部都提出強烈的批判要改革但我覺得有點納悶的事情是考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫今天提出來的這個針對考機制度的改革一個字都沒有寫"},{"start":709.5,"end":736.053,"text":"那所以當初的考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家說考機制度不合理我們要改革結果行使同意權當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後就沒把他當一回事嗎是這樣嗎跟委員說明周院長有指示考機的這個部分考機法修正的部分也是在立法院行使同意權大家的一個共同的看法跟承諾所以這個事情必須要推動"},{"start":736.733,"end":762.9,"text":"那沒有寫在報告裡面主要是因為現在大概還在內部的討論階段但是跟委員說明現在的狀況就是我們內部有做一個意見交換那現在選舉部這邊也形成了一個草案那我們內部討論之後呢就會跟各機關來交換意見這樣好不好 因為我聽秘書長這樣子講我可以理解啦但是我還是有一些困惑啦把它當成是一個重要的事情要做就應該寫在書面報告裡"},{"start":765.171,"end":779.001,"text":"否則的話立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要我們有在做這些事情只存在你們的內心啊國會不知道公務人員不知道人民也不知道沒有關係上一次我請教這個問題的時候你說你會忠實轉達我的意見這個意見有忠實轉達嗎有嘛"},{"start":787.947,"end":810.797,"text":"因為今天的書面報告針對這個部分顯然考試院的正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚的表達到底要怎麼樣來加以履行針對這個部分是不是可以請主席裁示請考試院會後提交一個補充的報告來"},{"start":811.877,"end":836.622,"text":"他們打算怎麼做 現在進度到哪裡因為我現在沒有要你攤牌嘛沒有要你攤牌說你到底考機制度要怎麼改嘛但最起碼過去的這段時間當中幾月幾號召開了什麼會議進行了什麼準備到目前為止的工作進度如何打算什麼時候要把東西提出來這一些事情應該要讓國會知道吧這個要求不會太過分吧可以 我們可以提供可以 需要多久"},{"start":838.703,"end":861.165,"text":"放完假以後交來好嗎 下個禮拜下禮拜是 因為我在你們的書面報告裡面我一個字都沒看到我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告這樣的話可能有點太重了畢竟你們各個部會裡面寫的東西以次數來講跟行政院其他部會比起來相對而言是比較充實啦"},{"start":862.082,"end":868.192,"text":"但是重要的事情該寫的還是要寫所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來好嗎可以好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時15分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長早。警察人員人事條例在今年4月25號總統已經公布生效了，這是一個三讀通過、總統公布的有效法律，之前我曾經在兩次質詢的時間中請教銓敘部的官員，他明確的表示考試院會依法行政，目前正在進行電腦系統重新的整備，需要一些時間，所以今年12月底以前，針對已經退休要重新計算的退休金會重新核定，這樣子的立場跟時程有沒有改變？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個沒有改變。"],["黃委員國昌：現在持續在進行當中？"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個行政上的工作，我們都在準備。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，所以12月以前，會把已經退休的人他們重新核定計算退休金的核定函再寄發，是嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：計畫上是這樣，部長這邊應該也沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：這個時程沒有改變嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有改變。"],["黃委員國昌：好。下一個問題，我們之前討論的都是之前已經退休的，因為法律有變更，退休的所得替代率變更，所以要重新計算，不過這個法律在4月25號就已經生效了，我在4月25以後申請退休，譬如今年夏天7月或8月的時候，我申請退休，這個時候，銓敘部針對法律生效了以後，它所核發的審定函是依照新法還是舊法？"],["劉秘書長建忻：應該是依照新法。"],["黃委員國昌：確定依照新法嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["黃委員國昌：確定依照新法嗎？你們核定函的寄發是按照新法的所得替代率嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我是不是請施部長來說明？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，因為我必須講一個比較直接的，我在準備這個題目的時候，我有請教立法院最近這一、兩個月退休的警察同仁，因為平常跟他們有互動，所以我就關心這件事，但是他們跟我反映的事情是，法律生效了以後，退休的人收到的審定函還是按照舊法，不是按照新法，所以我才要特別把這件事情提出來，但是你們說是用新法，那是他的審定函計算錯誤嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，我們對於新退休的同仁，本來就是兩個法律，根據原來的退撫法，我們核多少，然後根據調整的警察人員人事條例會核多少，所以其實那個審定函裡面會把兩件事情同時說明清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個審定函同時說明清楚？"],["施部長能傑：一個審定函裡面會交代這兩件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：好。從審定函生效了以後，他所領到的退休金是按照新法還是舊法計算？"],["施部長能傑：應該是說，如果根據退撫法，應該支的就是馬上發給，但是因為警察人員人事條例的差額，這部分我們會先審定他應該拿多少，但是那個差額要等核定完以後，再補差額。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我聽不懂，你發給一個人，他退休的時候，退休金領多少錢的審定函，它基本上是一個行政處分吧？"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：那個行政處分本身所發生的效力範圍，到底是按照新法計算退休金，還是按照舊法計算退休金？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，那個審定函同時說明兩件事……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我知道……"],["施部長能傑：一個是舊法你領多少，不是馬上給你……"],["黃委員國昌：你說明欄怎麼講都OK，剛剛你已經說明過了，我說那個行政處分對外部的法律事件發生法律效力的退休金，是按照新法計算還是舊法計算？"],["施部長能傑：我就說它兩個都包括。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那如果兩個都包括，包括依照新法計算的也對外發生法律效力了嘛？這樣說沒有錯嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["黃委員國昌：雖然對外發生法律效力，但是現在針對新法所通過的退休金，他現在領不到是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼？"],["施部長能傑：因為那個還沒有計算出來。"],["黃委員國昌：新法的還沒有計算出來？"],["施部長能傑：因為新法有所得替代率到80%，所以我們在那審定函裡面有特別交代會有一個程序，我們只是程序……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣好了啦！你們在發那個審定函的時候，不要涉及到任何人的個資，譬如說那警察叫什麼名字、身分證字號幾號、年紀等等，這個全部都不用，你所講的有兩個部分的那個審定函，你會後可不可以提供給我？"],["施部長能傑：沒有問題，我們就把……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在覺得很困惑，因為警察同仁跟我反映說不是三讀通過了嗎？三讀通過不是按照新法嗎？那為什麼我們收到的還是按照舊法在計算的退休金？這個是他們現在、他們在主張的全部都是合法的權益，是立法院三讀通過的法律啊！當然現在行政院院長卓榮泰可能以為自己是大法官，他有他的法律見解，不關你們考試院的事，但我要求的只有考試院是不是有依法行政，只有這件事情而已。你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的？"],["施部長能傑：有。"],["黃委員國昌：然後等你們公事處理完了以後、電腦系統完了以後，該補給他們的都會補給他們，是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：因為那個後面的錢，並不是我們退撫基金支的，根據法律，那個應該是內政部那邊去支的，所以要等那邊的預算編列完成，他們才會補到差額。"],["黃委員國昌：那個是牽涉到另外一個層次的事情啦！"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這些公務員對於國家在公法上的金錢債權，不會因為國家有沒有編列預算而有所差別，這個是行政法的A、B、C，我想不用特別解釋，應該都清楚啦！只是到時候該依法編列的預算沒有編列，導致國家在公法上的金錢債權沒有辦法滿足的話，而引發後續進一步的行政訴訟，甚至大規模的集體訴訟，在取得勝訴確定判決以後，對於屬於中華民國的財產來進行公法上的強制執行，走到那一步，我必須要說：就很難看了。那個是政府的失職，當然，我希望行政院可以迷途知返，這件事不要再發生；第二件事情，公務人員行政中立法的適用有疑義，由誰來加以解釋？我講的不是具體個案的事實認定，而是法律適用。"],["施部長能傑：如果不是通案性的解釋，是由主管機關銓敘部會做解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：由主管機關銓敘部來加以解釋？"],["施部長能傑：通案性的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我請教一下，之前我在這邊公開質疑前民進黨中常委，後來接任畜產會的董事長，年薪將近300萬的蘇治芬，有沒有行政人員中立法的適用？我已經得到答案是有。當然在個案的追究上，我就覺得很奇怪，中央畜產會很閒嗎？一年領將近300萬，結果跑去搞大罷免，上班都不用上班，真的很閒嗎？牽涉到具體個案認定的部分，人事長率先表態這件事情不應該，不應該這樣做、不應該發生，但是取決於他有請假或沒有請假，所以這個就會牽涉到主管機關，也就是具體個案事實認定。","農業部回函給我，7月18號到7月25號蘇治芬董事長已經請假，因為請假了，他請假要去做什麼樣的事情，就是他政治參與活動的自由，沒有違法。對於農業部所表達這樣法規上的立場，是不是也是銓敘部的立場？就是公務人員只要有請假，譬如今天星期四，我請假、我沒有領國家的薪水，我要去參與大罷免的活動，這是公務人員的政治自由，是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，根據中立法，因為他是屬於準用的對象。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["施部長能傑：準用對象裡面，有些是屬於任何時間你都不應該做的；有些是你可以請假做的，而且什麼活動你可以做、什麼活動你不可以做……"],["黃委員國昌：這我知道。"],["施部長能傑：我們通案解釋是這樣，至於這個個案本身到底是什麼狀況，可以提交……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在沒有要跟你講個案。"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在講的原則，就是公務人員只要有請假，就可以去參加相關的選舉罷免活動，基本的法律原則是不是這樣？還是只有對蘇治芬是這樣？"],["施部長能傑：如果他是屬於請假，但是他去參加罷免活動也不能夠使用到公共資源等等之類的。"],["黃委員國昌：是！"],["施部長能傑：在法律裡面有這樣一個規定。"],["黃委員國昌：對所有公務人員都一樣嘛，對吧？"],["施部長能傑：就是……"],["黃委員國昌：所有公務人員一體適用，這個原則很重要。"],["施部長能傑：它還是有一些不同的法條會框進來。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我了解啦！但是我現在在講的是，其實我只要你講一個立場，這個事情不是蘇治芬有特權，是所有的公務人員，你要請假的時候，只要不要違反公務人員行政中立法的規定，這本來就是你的政治參與自由。"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：你就大大方方說是就好了，讓所有公務人員心裡都有數嘛，大家以後休假時都有政治參與的自由，不用擔心被扣上違反公務人員行政中立法的帽子，或者是不用擔心我只能夠去幫執政黨，不能去幫在野黨；幫執政黨沒事，幫在野黨可能會出事，不要出現這樣的狀況就好了。"],["施部長能傑：中立法有關請假是你的權利……"],["黃委員國昌：非常好。"],["施部長能傑：但是你在參與的政治活動，也不能違反中立法相關的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有請假呢？"],["施部長能傑：沒有請假，就會有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有請假就會有問題嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對，那是上班時間。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，這個不牽涉到銓敘部的職權，我到時候再請農業部繼續追，農業部說：他7月18號到25號是請假。但我現在看他公開在上班的時間，7月10號、7月11號全部都是上班日，在臉書上公開發文倡議大惡罷，在上班時間用臉書公開發文倡議大惡罷，這有沒有違反公務人員行政中立法？"],["施部長能傑：因為如果是上班時間……"],["黃委員國昌：這個確定是上班的時間，他沒有請假。"],["施部長能傑：因為個案我不清楚，如果是上班的時間……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你只要表達這個原則就好了，具體的個案，接下來農業部要去做處理。","時間關係，最後一個問題，之前我一直很關心考績的制度，因為考績制度攸關全中華民國的公務員，我們希望一個考績制度去獎勵認真、負責的人，而不是去獎勵一個會向上管理、抱大腿的人，我相信這是文官中立一個非常基本的原則。但問題是，我們過去的考績制度非常地不合理，列甲等的比例不逾75%，同時官等越大、甲等的比例越高。我從第一次當立法委員就在關心這個制度，所以上次考試院正副院長以及考試委員提名的時候，我說這個考績制度要不要改？從院長、副院長到考試委員每一個，全部都提出強烈地批判，說要改革，但我覺得有點納悶的事情是，今天提出來的考試院業務概況報告及立法計畫，針對考績制度的改革一個字都沒有寫。所以當初考試院正副院長跟考試委員是在立法院欺騙大家，說考績制度不合理、我們要改革，結果行使同意權，當上了考試院正副院長跟考試委員了以後，就沒把它當一回事嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員說明，周院長有指示考績法修正的部分，也是在立法院行使同意權，大家共同的看法跟承諾，所以這個事情必須要推動。沒有寫在報告裡面，主要是因為現在大概還在內部討論的階段，但是跟委員說明現在的狀況是，我們內部有做一個意見交換，現在銓敘部也形成一個草案，我們內部討論之後就會跟各機關交換意見，所以現在是在程序當中……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣好不好？因為我聽秘書長這樣子講，我可以理解，但是我還是有一些困惑，把它當成是一個重要的事情，要做就應該寫在書面報告裡，否則的話，立法院怎麼知道考試院認為這件事情很重要，你們有在做，這些事情只存在你們的內心，國會不知道、公務人員不知道、人民也不知道……"],["劉秘書長建忻：主要是我希望內部先有一個比較明確的方向……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，上一次我請教這個問題的時候，你說會忠實轉達我的意見，這個意見有忠實轉達嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：有，所以我們有進行一些程序。"],["黃委員國昌：關於今天的書面報告，針對這個部分顯然考試院正副院長跟考試委員是有打算要履行他們在立法院所做的承諾，只不過在書面報告裡面沒有清楚地表達到底要怎樣來加以履行。針對這個部分，是不是可以請主席裁示，請考試院會後提交一個補充報告，說明他們打算怎麼做、現在進度到哪裡。我現在沒有要你攤牌到底考績制度要怎麼改，但最起碼過去的這段時間當中，幾月幾號召開了什麼會議、進行了什麼準備，到目前為止的工作進度如何、打算什麼時候要把東西提出來，這些事情應該要讓國會知道，這個要求不會太過分吧？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以，我們可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？放完假以後交來，好嗎？下個禮拜。"],["劉秘書長建忻：下禮拜，就是把我們現在的進度跟處理的狀況……"],["黃委員國昌：是，因為我在你們的書面報告裡面，我一個字都沒看到。"],["劉秘書長建忻：了解。"],["黃委員國昌：我是不願意講這是一個不及格的報告，這樣的話可能有點太重了，畢竟你們各個部會寫的東西，以字數來講，跟行政院其他部會比起來，相對而言是比較充實，但是重要的事情，該寫的還是要寫，所以下禮拜把你們的補充報告再補交來，好嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。也請秘書長依照黃委員的指示，在下禮拜把補充報告交出來，謝謝。","接下來，請吳宗憲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}