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中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇暨相關人員 主席王昭吉委員美會報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況含商會及臨時提案辦理情形並備質詢中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇報告委員蘇巧慧等14人質詢由中央選舉委員會主任委員李敬勇暨相關人員答覆說明"},{"start":1824.169,"end":1839.633,"text":"決定一登記發言委員處不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員林德福吳啟明及丁薛忠等三人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會宣讀完畢請問各位委員上次會議意識度有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1850.18,"end":1856.146,"text":"無錯誤亦適度確定那我們現在進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀宣讀完畢"},{"start":1878.005,"end":1905.251,"text":"現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們王美惠召委黃婕維園我們內政部部長劉世芳部長消防署署長蕭煥章校署長國土管理署副署長徐彥信副署長"},{"start":1908.246,"end":1932.962,"text":"援助民主委員會主任委員曾志由農業部常務次長杜汶箏經濟部水利署副署長黃洪浦環境部環境管理署副署長劉瑞祥衛生福利部常務次長莊仁祥"},{"start":1936.01,"end":1958.172,"text":"行政院公共工程委員會技術處處長曾鈞銘補充介紹我們的今天的委員我們蘇巧慧委員李柏毅委員還有我們張鴻路委員"},{"start":1964.065,"end":1966.34,"text":"那接下來請我們內政部劉世芳部長報告"},{"start":1975.512,"end":1994.182,"text":"主席黃委員各位委員各位女士先生大家早安大家好今天呈內政委員會邀請就晏曬湖監測災害預警通報疏散機制及災後復原重建一共有四大項進行報告那以下僅提出內政部應處作為報告請各位委員指教那書面報告也敬請參閱一有關於晏曬湖平常平時的監測"},{"start":2000.425,"end":2011.031,"text":"花蓮馬太安溪驗測湖自114年也就是今年7月形成之後全責機關農業部林保署在7月26日成立驗測湖應變小組進行監測農業部在8月27日成立專案小組那本部均配合參加相關會議討論防減災的作為第二"},{"start":2020.776,"end":2045.79,"text":"有關中央災害應變中心華家沙颱風的處置作為本次馬太安溪的堰塞湖災害防救疏散撤離工作內政部在成立華家沙颱風中央災害應變中心以後按照災害防救法進行指揮督導協調與支援災害防救工作的相關事項按照地方制度法災害防救法應該由地方政府研擬及核定地區災害防救計畫"},{"start":2046.77,"end":2058.71,"text":"並且在災時執行疏散撤離工作又鄉鎮市公所無法因應災害處理時後縣政府應該主動派員協助有關中央災害應變中心處置作為扼要說明如下"},{"start":2059.912,"end":2073.421,"text":"一 中央氣象署在9月21日8時30分發布畫家沙颱風海景中央災害應變中心及同步二級開設下午在5時30分提升為一級開設花蓮縣政府則於9月21日11時46分三級開設9月22日上午8時二級開設9月23日下午6時一級開設目前中央及花蓮縣政府均持續維持一級開設當中"},{"start":2087.27,"end":2101.822,"text":"第二為因應馬太安溪艷澀湖疏散撤離事宜9月21日下午3時中央災害應變中心指揮官邀集台大陽明交大等專業團隊以及花蓮縣政府光復萬榮及鳳林政公所等包括縣府饒密書長代表率消防局社會處農業處警察局民政處建設處以及鄉鎮公所等人員以視訊會議的方式參加來召開會議"},{"start":2113.512,"end":2133.366,"text":"決議依照專家學者所提出的情資套會戶籍資料計算出疏散撤離戶數總共1800戶以及路線在當日下午6時第三次工作會報本人在會議才是花蓮縣馬太安溪艷澀湖後續中央提供圖資套碟需疏散撤離之1800戶的門牌號碼請疏散撤離組接同"},{"start":2136.988,"end":2144.874,"text":"花蓮縣萬榮鄉鳳林鎮光復鄉等三鄉證供所確認撤離人數必由國防部提供協助以利"},{"start":2145.919,"end":2172.548,"text":"明日也就是第二天風雨較小前執行異地或者是垂直預防性的疏散撤離後依農業部建議再增加37戶總共共有1837戶需要撤離中央災害應變中心並且在同日晚間21時30分發布新聞稿略以今21日已提供花蓮縣政府及三個公所盤點實際人數包括急在人不在外地返鄉者等並且依據"},{"start":2173.488,"end":2192.515,"text":"氣象情滋農業部林保署將於明日也就是22日上午7時發布紅色警戒由縣府與公所執行預防性疏散撤離工作第三9月22日上午7時農業部林保署及發布馬太安溪艷澀湖紅色警戒中央災害應變中心也循著警政消防民政"},{"start":2193.255,"end":2208.134,"text":"原民等多管道多次通報該府相關機關單位以及光復相跟所應該執行疏散撤離工作9月22日下午30第5次中央災害應變中心的工作會報總統行政院長市長視訊由台灣台東台東縣"},{"start":2212.259,"end":2222.87,"text":"饒縣長 屏東縣州縣長以及花蓮縣延富縣長延富縣長說明就花收容人數部分三個鄉鎮總共有1837戶實際居住人數有6843人收容地點有三處光復商職體育館鳳林鎮樂活樂館"},{"start":2231.511,"end":2237.298,"text":"萬榮國小活動中心三處收容計130人依親計1365人垂直避難計5348人第五9月23日上午10時15分行政院長視導中央災害應變中心並且提示"},{"start":2247.31,"end":2273.652,"text":"馬太安溪艷澀湖於7月形成後即進行監測行政院並於相關會議及院會進行各種情境研判分析並且預劃採取相關防治措施目前水位距離溢流口約2公尺水位持續上升預估於23日中午前可能溢流請農業部持續密切監控並且適時發布災防告警細胞廣播也就是CBS的紅色警戒提醒"},{"start":2274.232,"end":2295.326,"text":"如有觀測到溢流情形請及時通知中央災害面中心及花蓮縣政府已立相關單位立即應應也請通知地方政府持續以村裡廣播及警消廣播車提醒民眾疏散撤離切勿靠近危險區域行政院也特別邀請花蓮縣副坤崎委員前來讓副總召了解行政團隊在颱風來臨前後的應變處置作為以及對於花蓮馬太煙"},{"start":2300.269,"end":2316.126,"text":"馬太安溪艷澀湖可能發生一流行政團隊事前如何加強監測並且做好相關的應變工作第六9月23日14時50分發生霸頂一流4日下午3時中央災害應變中心第八次工作會報花蓮縣政府回報"},{"start":2316.727,"end":2345.348,"text":"马太岸西堰涉湖溢流影响范围安置人数统计至当日13时30分即有17人数8524人收容安置185人13100人垂直避难5239人此皆有公开的直播影片可以供稽查第7 9月23日20时第9次工作汇报指示成立中央前进协调所由经济部赖次长赖建信担任总协调官总和花莲县灾害应变中心前进指挥所"},{"start":2347.01,"end":2363.907,"text":"結合花蓮縣災害應變中心前進指揮所加速後續應變及復原重建事宜第八9月26日18時30分將化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心調整為花蓮馬太安溪艷澀湖專案中央災害應變中心持續一級開設應變與救援至今"},{"start":2367.076,"end":2384.361,"text":"第九中央前進協調所暨總協調官暨政務員連程亦分別於10月10日11及12日召開花蓮縣馬太安溪艷澀湖疏散撤離應變計畫三次討論會重要結論包括撤離模式應該納入志工救災人員遊客等"},{"start":2385.101,"end":2405.412,"text":"與警戒區域非保全戶之不特定對象警戒區域範圍請農業部調查後正式提供圖資納入計劃花蓮縣政府務必明確及具體說明需要國軍協助之數量需求等並且請花蓮縣政府盡速將計劃簽成縣長核定在計劃發布施行三日內辦理兵棋推演驗證"},{"start":2408.894,"end":2423.446,"text":"4應變搶救清瘀工作告一段落 盡速辦理實兵演練在計劃週妥即可執行 確保民眾安全第10 截至10月12日12時止總計出動全國消防救災量能3298人 1173車 139艇147架無人機 以及67隻搜救犬"},{"start":2431.773,"end":2437.377,"text":"各部會支援救災出動各市車輛11894車各市搶救機具24419室以及101165人次目前傷亡統計計19人死亡5人失蹤以及157人受傷救援人員仍然持續收救作業當中"},{"start":2451.047,"end":2473.593,"text":"第三大項有關本部國土署的應變作為第一雨水下水道的清淤情形為了加速下水道的清淤作業中央災害應變中心前進指揮所在10月2日第17次工作會議主席指示由本部國土署整合縣府環境部以及國軍機具人力統合規劃與執行第二由於光復鄉佛祖街周邊淤積較為嚴重"},{"start":2475.413,"end":2503.13,"text":"目前仍持续进行路面以及加护淤泥清除作业原先办理林森路及中山路周边之雨水下水道干线及测沟清淤工作目前每日约有30组施工机具包括抽吸两用轻沟车加水车分区进行系统性的清淤工作每日机具完成了清淤长度约50到80公尺且施工机具仍在配合清淤进度微调增加当中"},{"start":2503.61,"end":2530.055,"text":"考量部分地區淤泥量仍大整體下水道清淤預計約一個月可以完成但是既連城總協調官希望我們在10月20日之前就可以完成所以現在會加大清淤的力度第二有關救災機具及施工人員動員的情形國土署所調派所轄各工程分署可動用之救災機具及人員至災區投入復建工作目前有七位主管跟四位文書工作人員輪值"},{"start":2531.135,"end":2537.419,"text":"第二截至114年10月12日12時止累計出動山貓79台抓斗車30台怪手103台卡車165台輕溝車94台灑水車62台轉運車23台及施工人員1293人"},{"start":2548.166,"end":2566.016,"text":"测沟累计清运的长度约17.67公里后续也会加速灾区的复原工作第三有关受灾户相关住宅协助措施说明第一为协助灾民尽速复原恢复正常生活行政院在灾后卫助服务站从10月7日起至10月12日止"},{"start":2566.536,"end":2593.304,"text":"每日上午八十到下午五十在花蓮光復的中華電信服務中心以一站式服務協助民眾辦理相關未住的服務申請內政部亦全力配合包括補發身份證健保卡金融帳號等生活所需的功能以及接受民眾的諮詢包括有受理申請未住金租金補貼建築物安全鑑定等相關措施到十月十一日受理家園"},{"start":2594.764,"end":2619.248,"text":"家園復原衛助金共1518件租金補貼64件另外受理房屋結構安全評估80件那園民會通報有36件已經評估26件當中再來就是有關行政院在114年10月3日核定本部所報馬太安溪艷澀湖受災戶家園復原衛助金的專案本部也造冊提供給衛福部"},{"start":2619.849,"end":2625.465,"text":"卫福部目前就是依照社会救助法的方式汇款发放有10万元卫助金"},{"start":2626.769,"end":2652.104,"text":"第四有關本部替代役訓練中心的管理作為現役的人力資源的部分在本部替代役的訓管中心的協助聯繫花蓮縣政府調派轄內替代役藝男支援光復鄉開設避難收容工作在9月22日調派22名23日調派24名的藝男來協助另外9月24日上午花蓮縣政府傳訊請求調派其他縣市替代役"},{"start":2652.784,"end":2675.274,"text":"現役藝男人力跨區支援災後復原工作內政部在24日首次調派有六個直轄市宜蘭縣以及本中心替代役藝男各20名及兩名帶隊人員在10月7日的時候接續調派有11個縣市來替代替代藝男投入資源協助災後復原等工作有關於備役替代役人力支援的部分"},{"start":2675.754,"end":2697.205,"text":"也是全台灣首度由花蓮縣政府的替代役備役應難勤務召集規劃兩個梯次每個梯次120人共計240人投入協助救災的工作那麼第一梯次呢會由今天開始來投入第五節雨的部分最後內政部也要藉此機會特別感謝中央災害應變中心及前進協調所的所有同仁"},{"start":2697.685,"end":2722.739,"text":"以及地方政府在風雨之際堅守崗位協助監測各種情況並且確保指令下達與再三叮嚀也要感謝民政替代藝男景蕭同仁以及國軍官士兵協助地方政府執行疏散任務並且與國土工程人員環境傾銷各地志工共同加速各項復原工作本次堰塞湖災情對花蓮縣民眾造成嚴重衝擊情形行政院於114年10月7日"},{"start":2724.42,"end":2748.65,"text":"已經公告化家沙颱風影響災區範圍為花蓮縣光復鄉鳳林鎮及萬榮鄉卓院長也三度赴災區勘災中央災害應變中心暨前進協調所花蓮縣災害應變中心暨前進指揮所維持一級開設共同協助調度各項救災搶修搶通作業同時內政部也持續與農業部經濟部交通部中央氣象署花蓮縣政府等密切合作"},{"start":2749.33,"end":2766.776,"text":"並且遵照卓院長的指示依照七項順序進行工作第一搶救生命第二恢復家園第三去化垃圾及污泥第四回復環境及交通第五針對民房農田及公共設施等損失研擬補償措施第六提出復原與重建計畫第七"},{"start":2767.476,"end":2793.368,"text":"進行檢討與責任釐清以改進相關措施確保未來安全同時做到確實現實定時三項目標包括馬太安溪艷澀湖水位監測要確實堤防及橋樑復原工作要現實完成同時也要定時結束同時要定時結束家園復原工作讓受災民眾早日恢復正常生活以上簡要報告敬請各位委員女士先生參考多多指教謝謝"},{"start":2795.67,"end":2797.592,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生大家早就本會在"},{"start":2816.919,"end":2844.24,"text":"驗射壺的監測還有災害的預警通報還有疏散機制以及災後護眼重建進行報告敬請各位委員指教中央在9月21日就開設花家沙颱風應變中心本會也同步成立應變中心透過傳真以及這個LINE的群組通報地方單位共12次並協助統計族人撤離安置的情形9月23日驗射壺災害發生之後"},{"start":2846.809,"end":2870.053,"text":"本會隨即進駐中央前進協調委 協調所擔任延民工作組的主導機關並且參與戶員重建以及收容安置組的工作本會在災後及時發放傷亡族人的衛助金媒合安置非公設收容處所 族人的入住民宿等等"},{"start":2871.706,"end":2893.599,"text":"啟動部落關懷小組進駐七個村族戶訪視族人以及發放衛助軍此外在關戶車站我們也引導志工清理家園並進駐東戶村的阿桃木部落協助這個族人的清淤本會重視這個族人的意願部落的青年會"},{"start":2894.634,"end":2911.065,"text":"除了可以參加中央協調所的工作會議之外我們也參與馬太安青年會馬太安自救會以及東戶青年會的座談及時回應他們的訴求並且進駐行政院的一站式平台"},{"start":2911.87,"end":2927.595,"text":"協助申請各項救助以及房屋的安全鑑定我們並且提供了臨時工作計畫200人以及部落互助行手隊的計畫100人現在也已經有"},{"start":2929.012,"end":2955.347,"text":"270幾位的族人已經陸續上工為了要因應重建的需要本會也提報追加預算用於紀惠所的復建還有文件站的復建以及融資利息補貼等等而且在尊重部落共識的前提下我們會積極來推動災戶員的重建工作協助我們的族人早日重建家園以上報告進行各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2959.199,"end":2963.969,"text":"謝謝曾主委 接下來我們請農業部杜汶箏常務次長報告"},{"start":2971.065,"end":2987.275,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先進大家早今天陳貴委員會邀請就堰塞湖監測災害預警通報疏散機制及災後復原重建進行專案報告以下警就本部應處作為說明敬請各位委員指教第一堰塞湖的行程與調查監測"},{"start":2989.196,"end":3012.094,"text":"花蓮縣萬榮鄉的馬太安溪上游在今年7月下旬因邊坡大規模崩塌阻斷溪流形成晏色湖本部林業及自然保育署花蓮分署在7月26日空刊確認晏色湖後立即成立緊急應變小組並委託陽明交通大學防災團隊進行調查監測及緊接工作應變期間也多次"},{"start":3012.774,"end":3019.027,"text":"请空勤总队直升机做空勘掌握艳赛湖的状况并降落坝顶安置水位计"},{"start":3020.319,"end":3044.119,"text":"林業保育署的航遙測分署也多次執行航拍取相任務也完成了航照影像的解算建模提供給監測團隊後續調查監測危險度及危害風險評估作為警戒訂定機制及影像範圍的重要資訊那從調查的相關的從7月26日到9月21日的相關作為請各位參閱報告內容"},{"start":3046.826,"end":3076.406,"text":"二 相关政府机构的协作以及公众的沟通从7月26日林保署花莲分署召开应变小组会议也已经把中上下所有应该相关的政府机构花莲县府以及包括台铁公路段花莲公务段还有浓水署相关的机构还有公路局花莲公务股也都纳进来那当然最重要的是花莲县府还有所受影响的凤林光复及万荣山"},{"start":3078.067,"end":3094.996,"text":"這個鄉鎮的一些鄉鎮公所也都納進來做整體的一些考量那7月16號開始應變小組會議之後從8月6號到9月21日之前一共召開了包括防災的分工會議也包括了分散"},{"start":3096.096,"end":3124.238,"text":"蘇珊的會議還有河道蘇郡的分工會議以及獄警發布機制的延伸會議那這期間呢8月7號也拜訪了花蓮縣政府做溝通就蘇珊撤離的作為請花蓮縣政府務必積極來嚴處那花蓮縣府也在8月11日召開蘇珊會議那這樣子的運作在12號8月12號的楊柳颱風也發揮了效果完成了697人的撤離那"},{"start":3125.198,"end":3149.972,"text":"陰陰陽柳颱風之後我們也到了萬榮光復鳳林鄉召開了四次現場的跟村鄉民座談會因為其實就一次的陽柳颱風還有後續要因應的作為也做了一些說明那這期間也召開了兩次專家諮詢會議並發布了九則新聞以及有93個新聞媒體露出這是在政府各部門協作以及在"},{"start":3151.132,"end":3177.897,"text":"這個跟民眾溝通的部分那第三農業部召開跨部會的專案小組是在8月27日奉行政院成立那第一次會議的時候就已經分成三個工作小組第一個是在霸體的監測第二個是在河川的減災工程第三個是疏散撤離的部分那就這三個工作小組其實這當中還是有很多的監測工作那除了我們在各專家小組的研判會議之外"},{"start":3178.597,"end":3191.588,"text":"花蓮縣府也在9月17號因為那時候已經預計化加沙颱風快要歷臨所以花蓮縣府也在9月17號正式召開了疏散撤離因應的對策工作小組那"},{"start":3192.594,"end":3216.812,"text":"本專案小組在9月19號召開第二次專家召開這個跨部位的專家會議那但是其中當天並沒有聽到那個花蓮縣府就整個撤離計劃的細節但是有當場又提醒說因為華沙加颱風已經快歷齡了也請花蓮縣府務必趕緊完成這個疏散計劃以作為及時的應處"},{"start":3218.394,"end":3233.254,"text":"中央災害應變中心成立之後是在9月21日8點30分發布颱風警報那就成立中央災害應變中心農業部當然就加入防災應變辦理農林漁牧功能分組的各項防災應變工作"},{"start":3234.475,"end":3263.112,"text":"那中央災害面成立之後的各項因素剛才內政部劉部長已經說明了非常清楚在這邊只是要特別提出說明兩點第一個是在9月21號11點我們其實已經通知花蓮縣府就那些弱勢的族群應該要緊急做疏散然後也針對那些收容避難場所也要開始準備包括空間物資人員這些準備這是第一點"},{"start":3264.181,"end":3287.028,"text":"那同時也在當天有告知就是預計9月22日早上7點就要發布紅色警戒那所謂紅色警戒就是一定要緊急撤離了所以我想這兩件事情跟花蓮縣府其實都有做完整的說明跟準備那這期間一共發布14日的警戒警訊跟8則的細胞廣播資訊那細節內容請大家參閱書面報告"},{"start":3289.349,"end":3297.081,"text":"那重點是在災後的監測警戒跟復原那雖然這個華沙加雜蜂造成的這個霸體的"},{"start":3298.424,"end":3326.696,"text":"大量的水沙土流流到這個光復箱裡面那目前從10月1號到12號其實我們每天的這個監測都還持續在做那目前其實溢流口下刷速度已經減緩了那湖面的水位其實並沒有明顯的變化那在這期間也發生了花蓮有地震那經過在空拍影像確認其實堰塞湖並沒有再次的潰穴那微地動物也沒有偵測到有大型的崩塌"},{"start":3327.156,"end":3349.424,"text":"也沒有水流的異常情形那深溝兩側的有土砂的崩落但是並沒有阻塞到這個這個通溪流的通路所以我們林保署也再請成功大學的防災研究中心再次去探測水位那經過這個吊掛小型的無人船去偵測那目前蓄水量"},{"start":3350.324,"end":3378.323,"text":"已经大量减少到大概只剩下155万吨那155万吨大概就是原先我们这个艳色湖整体这个蓄水量大概只剩下1.7%所以这个部分就跟大家报告那所以在整个后续的制裁风险的评估经过10月6号专家会议认为说其实目前在气候如果稳定的状况下在发生溃坝的几率是低的但是因为河滩两边的"},{"start":3379.389,"end":3396.586,"text":"坡度是非常高聳的所以如果再有暴雨或是有地震也不排除會在這個造成這個沖刷這個砂石往下掉所以整體情形還必須要嚴密的監測那後續的監測及警戒大概分幾個一個當然是用多元的方式不管從衛星從無人機"},{"start":3397.507,"end":3415.899,"text":"從空拍機從網路及時監測及下流的水位下游的水位監測那我想多元管道監測這是我們都持續會在做那除了下游水位監測從湖面崩塌的定位以及壩體的特徵來看之外其實整個因為下游的一些整治包括河川的侵蝕"},{"start":3417.279,"end":3443.253,"text":"也包括合體的加強增高所以我們把這個警戒值有做了一些調整那請大家看到第13頁在10月10號之後的警戒調整包括未來如果48小時預計雨量是200毫米的話會有黃色警戒如果24小時累積雨量是200毫米會是紅色警戒水位抬高0.5公尺會是紅色警戒水位抬高1公尺除了紅色警戒還要以警報台來發布警報"},{"start":3444.694,"end":3471.392,"text":"那如果震度5弱以上也是红色警戒必须要警报台来发布警报那所谓的警报台就是说在我们原先的群组传真通报单细胞广播简讯及村里广播系统之外我们也请这个警察局警报台的发布的方式然后能够做多元的宣导以免有些民众其实没有手机也没有正好听到那用多元的方式来让大家知道说应该要做紧急撤离"},{"start":3472.032,"end":3498.714,"text":"那災害復原的部分其實目前我們10月9號也再次召開專家會議專家認為就霸體的部分在現階段不宜大規模的去擾動那現階段就是以觀察監測及應變的措施所謂應變措施就是下游的疏菌跟土堤增高強化這塊來代替堰塞湖本身湖區的大規模的工程作為那這個部分我們大概就依照這個專家的建議會持續來做"},{"start":3500.016,"end":3507.617,"text":"包括下游的倾俗以及上游在壩体部分的紧密监测那行政院在华沙加台风"},{"start":3509.278,"end":3533.804,"text":"畫家沙颱風成立一站式平台在10月7號成立之後農業部當然也加入這個平台運作那時間不管是農民我們直接到農戶的關心或是農民到我們這一站式服務的請求包括在農地的重建包括在農機具包括在復建包括在新植包括在各種貸款延款的這個部分的說明那包括農會的這個存摺展延這些"},{"start":3534.224,"end":3561.879,"text":"我们都在一站式的服务为农民提供一些说明那必须要申办的或是必须要登录的必须要协助的我想我们就是一站式的协助农民能够度过这次的难关那结语我想在7月26号院赛湖确认成立之后林业级自然保育署已经成立紧急应变小组在8月12日并召开第一次的专家会议那8月27由本部召开跨部位的专栏小组"},{"start":3562.359,"end":3577.351,"text":"并且在中央灾害应变中心成立之后加入整个全国的运作团队针对华嘉沙台风来袭之后所有的一些应处那在台风过后在整个艳色湖在溃体之后"},{"start":3577.791,"end":3601.713,"text":"我想我們現在重要的是在壩體本身的監測這持續要做在下游的監測及這個水位的這個傾縮以及堤防的加高我想這整個都已經在進行中那不管怎麼樣要協助農民能夠在整體的復建過程當中不管是在農地的重建也好生活的恢復也好我想這是農業部的責任我想農業部會跟我們農民一直在一起以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3604.778,"end":3620.645,"text":"好謝謝杜文貞常務次長那其他單位的報告我們請委員執行參閱並刊登公報那現在進行答詢那委員執行前原力做幾點宣告"},{"start":3621.505,"end":3646.938,"text":"第一委員會發言的時間本委員會委員8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本委員會委員8分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記二臨時提案截止提出時間11點那於本委本會委員答詢完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見沒有意見"},{"start":3649.522,"end":3677.98,"text":"那我們現在進行答詢請登記第一位的張宏祿委員發言好謝謝我請內政部長然後農業部長經濟部水利署副署長好請以上委員提到三位單位列席"},{"start":3678.984,"end":3681.557,"text":"委員好部長好"},{"start":3683.263,"end":3710.657,"text":"我應該不用問到10分鐘因為那麼多委員讓你們罰站太久了那我們就簡短我們就挑重點部長我想請問一下這個菸賽湖我們是不是從一開始之後各部會農業部等等的我們就都有監控到了都有隨時做這個最第一時間的這個情況的"},{"start":3713.464,"end":3729.538,"text":"我是不是請農業部來回應對我一起叫你們上來謝謝委員關心我想在7月26號在空刊確認有驗聖斧之後其實就是把所有的部會特別是在下游整治應該要相關包括花蓮縣政府都拿起來了"},{"start":3730.809,"end":3754.187,"text":"我們都見到其實今天再問這個蠻沉重的我個人一直認為這些罹難的或什麼的其實是可避免的問題可避免而沒有避免造成今天這樣的憾事我不知道你們各位的看法如何回答"},{"start":3760.56,"end":3783.289,"text":"都可以啊 我一起叫上來啊謝謝委員關心我想就整個堰塞湖的監測在對於監測到的所有資訊該要公開的其實都在網站上不是啦 你就回答我的問題就好啦那我想沒有人希望這件事情發生當然所有的資訊的溝通都是希望能夠避免人員傷亡不敢回答 部長"},{"start":3785.591,"end":3811.383,"text":"報告委員我們都了解人定無法勝天那在農業部他有持續監測但是最重要的兩個不可測的因素就是第一個艷澀湖在最後華家沙颱風的時候呢帶來大量的豪大雨當時華家沙對於不是啦部長我只你們只要回答我的問題啦其實是不是可避免你這個天然災害無法避免"},{"start":3812.441,"end":3841.637,"text":"是 所以我说人尽无法胜天对 但造成这么大的这么多人的罹难或什么的是不是可以避免的我们尽量要能够避免但是它事实上造成这样子的伤痛我们也是心情非常的沉重那所以我们还是尽量朝着说未来怎么样更安全的来防护包括厌射狐造成的灾害会比较好我必须这样说今天心情大家问这个问题都很沉重"},{"start":3842.796,"end":3861.383,"text":"在那邊有一個大馬村的村長整村的人人家是不是都撤離是 王子安王村長對這是不是可避免是的是不是對對嘛我覺得啦我們這一次要記起這個教訓"},{"start":3864.173,"end":3892.773,"text":"大家都知道撤離當然是地方政府的權限但中央跟地方要一起配合才能完成地方政府也沒有辦法知道菸塞湖它的監測狀況它也沒辦法它是要中央給它第一手的訊息它才能夠去處理那我覺得中央跟地方就是要一起配合但這一次我真的覺得這個撤離的動作如果精準確實"},{"start":3894.658,"end":3901.779,"text":"絕對不會發生這麼多人的罹難你的財產損失可能沒有辦法因為這是天災但財產損失了政府還可以補償但人命沒了就沒了對不對部長是對嘛所以我一直覺得我們這個部長還有經濟部農業部都在我們每年是不是都有辦防汛演習"},{"start":3925.492,"end":3926.953,"text":"是不是經濟部跟部長報告確實針對相關災害是有防眩演習每年都該辦吧看災害別我們有颱風水災又各主管機關去做相關的你只有回答我是不是每年都要辦是啊對啊這樣就好啦"},{"start":3949.341,"end":3975.127,"text":"對不對可不可以以後每年在辦防汛演習的時候把這一種測離因為水災我們不只是九煙塞湖土石流地區等等的這些都是會造成人命的傷亡我們以後可不可以把防汛演習把這個測離列為演習的標準項目之一可不可以"},{"start":3976.909,"end":3980.771,"text":"以水災為例我們每次都會把這個測離當作一個重點不是啦我現在問你的是我們把這個警戒區裡面的測離這個要把它列入標準的測離我們要演練的程序之一而且照測什麼什麼的要從頭到尾精準去做以後的防汛演習可不可以做到這樣"},{"start":4005.855,"end":4017.787,"text":"在水災的部分我們會把這個撤離當作一個重點你在放錄音帶喔還是你要回去請示部長才可以回答"},{"start":4019.52,"end":4026.561,"text":"報告委員經濟部就是水災的主責機關對啊所以我問你現在未來的防汛演習可不可以把這個撤離這個是當成標準最重要的演練之一嘛你就回答是就好了啊你剛剛問那麼多這是人命的事耶我覺得以前就是沒有這樣子嘛沒有嚴格的要求嘛所以你變成地方的造冊根本不確實嘛"},{"start":4051.38,"end":4059.567,"text":"如果每個都像大馬村的村長這樣子今天我看傷亡的人數會大幅降低我們只有財產的損失"},{"start":4061.616,"end":4087.982,"text":"我們是人命重要比財產更重要所以我今天說要求你們這樣你剛說可以嘛可以以後我們就照這樣來做嘛那如果地方政府都能夠在平時把照冊實際居住的人有多少人都照冊精準然後我們演練配合內政部配合所有部會演練每次的撤離就是照"},{"start":4089.233,"end":4098.706,"text":"這樣子精準的演練我相信未來不會再發生這樣的事不然地方的造冊你中央也沒有辦法去檢驗它到底造冊準不準部長"},{"start":4100.831,"end":4127.001,"text":"可以 你們可以百分之百檢驗到他們造冊準不準嗎不容易因為剛剛跟那個委員了解的一樣譬如說急在人不在或者是臨時返鄉的不特定人口所以我們通常都是在這個汛期之前或颱風之前要求地方的民政單位要能夠確實掌握住在縣地的人到底有多少人這樣子在做疏散撤離的時候呢才能夠精準把握那但是這通常都是要村裡幹事"},{"start":4127.961,"end":4146.962,"text":"或是地方的這個消防或警察或者是社會處的同仁才會知道說這邊到底有多少人我知道啦這個都是地方造冊啦我當過地方的民政局長我非常清楚啦如果認真做的就會做到百分之九十九啦我們也不敢說百分之百啦因為有時候可能這個"},{"start":4148.157,"end":4170.741,"text":"去那邊工作的人他昨天來你多一個人你也不知道但我們至少能夠做到99%但你中央可能沒有辦法拿到確實的數據對不對所以你地方如果沒有嚴格去做到我認為以後還是同樣的情況會發生所以我才會說你今天造成這樣子我認為地方的造冊"},{"start":4174.71,"end":4198.466,"text":"真的是出了很大的問題不然也不會說災區的人連便當都沒有拿到如果你照冊精準怎麼可能連便當都沒拿到這是新聞播的所以我在這邊請所有的部會我們未來防汛演習把這一種土石流或這一種類似這種比較有可能發生要撤離的"},{"start":4200.587,"end":4210.798,"text":"變成標準的程序 標準的作業啦這樣子每年來做啦 每年檢驗啦才不會再有這種情況發生啦我不知道可不可以剛剛經濟部說可以了 那其他部會可不可以"},{"start":4217.847,"end":4236.57,"text":"也是要照這樣子來做因為其實有這樣的好 謝謝好 謝謝那內政部我們應該也可以吧對 我們按照那個災救法一定會按照這樣的方式要求地方政府一定要能夠確實造冊配合而且要實時更新因為其他的縣市政府其實有人做得到譬如說高雄市政府"},{"start":4237.131,"end":4256.619,"text":"他們在颱風有一級警戒的時候知道山上的狀況其實馬上就做預防性的撤離我想預防性的撤離最近這幾年大家都常聽到就是說我們認為可能天災造成的危害比較大那預防性撤離就有必要而不是等到說真正這個颱風警報到的時候才做撤離這會有撤離上面的困擾"},{"start":4257.762,"end":4274.693,"text":"對啦我覺得還是一句話啦平時有做啦然後你們各部會如果地方在防汛演習他沒有照規定來沒有嚴格的做你們的補助很多的東西在你們手上你就不配合那我們就是要檢討每年防汛演習的最後的檢討不是檢討假的我覺得要這樣子才可以救很多人謝謝"},{"start":4291.741,"end":4297.004,"text":"接下來我們請王美惠委員質詢蘇曉惠委員不好意思蘇曉惠委員好謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早"},{"start":4320.421,"end":4342.857,"text":"好 部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害"},{"start":4345.479,"end":4349.72,"text":"所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的"},{"start":4365.945,"end":4370.508,"text":"所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方"},{"start":4390.162,"end":4394.465,"text":"讓整個機制可以做到最好部長你同意這個狀態嗎是 完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以"},{"start":4407.014,"end":4414.817,"text":"不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為"},{"start":4436.667,"end":4442.971,"text":"整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚"},{"start":4465.786,"end":4471.689,"text":"該中央擔的絕不推諉但該地方做的也要讓地方讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠"},{"start":4488.777,"end":4494.14,"text":"夠不夠嚴格執行夠不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了"},{"start":4517.895,"end":4525.379,"text":"非常多次吧 我剛剛報告有七次以上 甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的 大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣 部長"},{"start":4545.171,"end":4559.443,"text":"是 谢谢委员的指教我想委员他侧重在监控以及后面的疏散撤离的部分确实这有中央跟地方上在这个协同救灾或是协同做疏散撤离上面是不是有各尽善尽职责"},{"start":4560.464,"end":4577.89,"text":"那有關這方面的救責的部分除了院長提到說救災為先救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面但是每一次補責一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠"},{"start":4585.252,"end":4597.163,"text":"確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制這是這一次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣人口加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分"},{"start":4605.97,"end":4626.977,"text":"好 所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好 剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來 第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎"},{"start":4635.607,"end":4660.763,"text":"對 這其實是防空 我相信大家都比較熟悉這個這個從小聽到大 大家都有練習 認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊 我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好 部長 我告訴你 我覺得你不知道 很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況小防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別清楚"},{"start":4667.742,"end":4695.998,"text":"所以我還要在那邊算這是不是五秒嗎因為他會連續發八次到九次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這次在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chat GPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個"},{"start":4710.728,"end":4727.641,"text":"部長 這個就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報 誤發警示所謂有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後 最後由中央 依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲 這個是我們的海嘯警報"},{"start":4735.206,"end":4740.03,"text":"大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼"},{"start":4760.925,"end":4762.606,"text":"所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報"},{"start":4777.054,"end":4792.258,"text":"其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的"},{"start":4800.78,"end":4807.424,"text":"所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論"},{"start":4819.39,"end":4825.273,"text":"可以討論啦我想我的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要"},{"start":4845.825,"end":4850.989,"text":"所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的"},{"start":4871.764,"end":4881.268,"text":"可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦"},{"start":4895.515,"end":4915.682,"text":"報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部我認為這個可以討論啦"},{"start":4919.463,"end":4941.174,"text":"所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這是這個 這個是第二題最後一個啦 雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是 我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天 光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上"},{"start":4949.498,"end":4970.505,"text":"進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西"},{"start":4978.248,"end":4990.918,"text":"可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國家防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分"},{"start":5005.511,"end":5008.056,"text":"就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別"},{"start":5013.385,"end":5036.427,"text":"零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦"},{"start":5038.203,"end":5058.585,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們再分派工作比較沒有但是"},{"start":5059.205,"end":5083.271,"text":"個別的問題我們在災後好幾天原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有怪異漏腕那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規化或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下"},{"start":5084.231,"end":5101.238,"text":"開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分的慢慢把它建制化的我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商好謝謝部長我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇消委員接下來我們請王美惠召委"},{"start":5115.208,"end":5117.989,"text":"主席我們先補充 請求四方部長委員你早補充先補充在這段時間說實在九月二三發生這件事發生這件事"},{"start":5133.543,"end":5139.808,"text":"說實在,大家如果看到電視,無法想像發生在台灣中華民國包括我再來,我早上回去看到電視的時候我當作是日本的海嘯重播"},{"start":5152.558,"end":5157.54,"text":"是我看到旁邊一個三千人我告訴你,這發生在我們中華民國的台灣所以在這個規定,不如剛才我們經濟部也說說在七月,他就知道有這個問題在陸陸續續開限制會,討論限制事情的時候"},{"start":5181.903,"end":5184.405,"text":"結果像剛才補充的說我們的天災地變我們沒有辦法去預防也不夠我們可以堅強、順序在這個過程當中 說實在包括剛才 朝會 劉威說的說大家如果說到 這些問題 心肝都很乾脆的"},{"start":5209.147,"end":5213.109,"text":"你看我們如果能夠早點撤離那位我們傷亡的這19位不會過往的還有過往的失蹤的 沒錯在這個過程當中 我們不是要說"},{"start":5231.115,"end":5235.476,"text":"什麼人認真 什麼人怎麼樣我們是要想想 怎麼樣讓我們的百姓可以在什麼安全的地方說實在 大家也想要住起來 大家也想要住安全的地方但是他們住到什麼時候來 他們的經濟還有什麼"},{"start":5257.025,"end":5261.189,"text":"還要在我們中央政府那裡做三天那裡做關心結果在這個過程當中本身也覺得很奇怪照這個問題剛才補充你說的高雄的政策是怎樣 他們的環境"},{"start":5280.038,"end":5287.283,"text":"現在會發生風災 發生水災的時候是怎樣造成的政府政策 沒錯這種心事 我們中央和地方政府都要聯合去怎樣做才確定 不能說跟我們這麼大的政府"},{"start":5306.613,"end":5309.776,"text":"做不到的 做兩個人在那裡打架我們在打架的時候一開始說八九的人失蹤了部長聽到這八九的人失蹤了你我大家人都非常感恐 非常覺得怎麼會發生這樣"},{"start":5329.912,"end":5333.114,"text":"本身要跟你說的就是 雖然我們地方有自治法18條、19條 有規定地方要做什麼 中央要做什麼但是事情發生了 要誰知道你們中央要做什麼地方要做什麼 在區委當中"},{"start":5353.288,"end":5356.49,"text":"補充 你說你叫一通一通電話給館長快回來但是在你們的開會當中 他們的副館長"},{"start":5366.173,"end":5386.295,"text":"都說他們安排好了 做好了今天還會發生這樣來保證你會答謝我想這個災害的過程當中大家都清楚了那我想目前為止還是一樣我們不從究責的方向出發我們先從如何可以防止有更大的災害產生"},{"start":5387.455,"end":5400.281,"text":"那我也非常清楚的跟委員報告就是我們在多次的聯繫當中啊我們也只能相信花蓮縣政府所提供這些不管是依親收容或者是撤離的這些人數"},{"start":5401.414,"end":5414.524,"text":"那因為在當時啊我也請國軍或者是我們的這個替代役要到包括光復襄公所來待命如果有需要有強制撤離的部分我們希望能夠協助沒有啦 我知道這個國軍知道這裡都很認真很努力我要跟你討論的就是說要撤離的時候等於沒有撤離他過去的時候你中央知道嗎"},{"start":5425.993,"end":5427.473,"text":"知道他沒有撤離嗎?沒有去說過嗎?沒有去說阿欽要撤離?跟那個大麻村長去說不說要緊張?部長,在這裏面的時候,我們19號發生覺得嚴重性的日日叫人要撤離,日日發生事情"},{"start":5451.786,"end":5457.067,"text":"在發生事情的時候 他們看到水泥沒兩分鐘 跑不掉啦現在我要跟你討論的就是說電影如果沒有撤離的時候你們中央有什麼方法嗎沒有啦 那個被捕官我們都不知道 要不要撤離 要不要做什麼事是必須的沒有啦 它是必須的部長"},{"start":5481.694,"end":5484.135,"text":"我們有什麼方法可以來合作來中央和地方可以來檢慶上海沒有啦我不是說我們的地方還是我們的中央是要怎麼讓你們知道該撤離的沒撤離的要過境還可以加強沒有啦過境有這個問題啦"},{"start":5507.671,"end":5510.554,"text":"你剛才也說 聽起來也難看我想再回憶 本來的狀況就是當時如果有做廣播撤離的時候光復相公所確實有告訴我們說它的廣播系統出問題但是花蓮縣的警察局"},{"start":5525.37,"end":5538.145,"text":"他們在光復的部分趕快派出消防車跟警車用廣播的方式請大家趕快離開然後花蓮縣政府知道說我們疏散撤離的人數高達有1837戶的時候到真正艷澀湖有這個潰堤的危機總共是超過將近43個小時"},{"start":5546.354,"end":5556.98,"text":"也就是說如果趕快做疏散撤離包括我們常常在講的預防性撤離一定是保全戶也就是有身障或是年紀大的那同時我們也告訴他說因為按照花蓮縣他們的疏散撤離計畫確實有個叫垂直避難那這一次呢罹難的很多老人家他們幾乎都是集中在一樓因為最後他淤沙的程度呢是在一樓以下那往二樓三樓的也是一個可以撤離的方向"},{"start":5573.829,"end":5598.056,"text":"第一個就是說大家會覺得說好像過去農業部一直推動說有黃色警戒或紅色警戒的撤離計劃很多人覺得那沒問題可能第一個掉以輕心但是這個都是後話第二個就是說疏散撤離的過程當中人力夠不夠按照我們現在中央跟地方所了解的部分人力在疏散撤離上面應該是夠的但是比較重要是戶口的清查"},{"start":5598.596,"end":5619.908,"text":"你到底知不知道現在房子裡面住的是多少人他能不能離開所以我們看到很多讓人家心痛的這個部分產生的時候我們還是一樣非常沉痛任何一個生命的損失都是我們無法沉痛的部分所以我在很多工作會議裡面都特別提到這個垂直的撤離的方式是人命保全最重要"},{"start":5620.348,"end":5645.106,"text":"財產損失是次之的所以我是覺得這樣子的溝通計畫還是要跟大家再繼續加強那當然中間有一位村長他全村都撤離我也跟委員報告這位村長他在112年的時候有榮獲我們消防署的一個韌性社區所以他不只撤離挨家挨戶去請人家離開他還用他的主語用廣播系統告訴人家一定要離開而且全村都巡視"},{"start":5646.167,"end":5660.849,"text":"所以他是一個非常好的一個地方上的一個村長我們希望用他的案例當成是一個示範的案例未來再推廣很多有需要疏散撤離甚至強制疏散撤離的部分當成一個最好的參考"},{"start":5661.75,"end":5676.558,"text":"因為我們一定是知道人定真的無法勝天沒有人知道到底什麼時候會有產生溢流因為我也跟委員報告那一天早上當我們知道這個溢流口只剩下幾公尺的時候早上4點鐘我們的消防署長就開始召開會議"},{"start":5677.578,"end":5700.167,"text":"然後七點鐘的時候每一次農業部發表了紅色紅色紅色從八點一直發布紅色警戒兩個小時發布一次到下午兩點半的時候才產生從早上八點到兩點半產生的時候一直在通知地方上要趕快來協助但是真的就是憾事發生那既然憾事發生的話大家都要能夠理解說未來我們到底溝通的部分"},{"start":5700.647,"end":5706.148,"text":"法令上不足的部分或者是我們整個的疏散撤離企劃有不夠明確的部分的話還是需要深切的檢討啦對啦 保庭你剛才就是說溝通的問題 撤離的問題在這個過程當中 我覺得在法律當中也有一些不足的地方我們未來要趕緊去改啦在這個過程當中你看事情發生之後你看有很多人做志工"},{"start":5730.117,"end":5733.539,"text":"在這個過程 大家不是做志工而已入獄的時候 那個心情看多艱苦所以保證 我想跟你說 我們最重要最重要的天災我們沒辦法去預防 要不然我們要撤離的時候我們一定要做到最好"},{"start":5752.592,"end":5755.294,"text":"因為你剛才說的大馬村 那個村長有受過分跟他能說 也能說他的族 民族 他的威嚴跟八村那個 但是我們不能讓任何一村來受盡他們的風險所以未來的時候 不管在哪一個地方我們要去訓練他們"},{"start":5782.403,"end":5787.464,"text":"公佈電台也不可以廢棄啦那個廣播系統剛才你說的那種小型的車一直廣告一直廣告這個有看到嗎?可不可以沒有那麼的發展呢?公佈的時候可以再減輕?最難的啦在這裡面普通 你看大家都要再努力因為未來會重建的路"},{"start":5812.162,"end":5818.428,"text":"我們現在跟花蓮互相加油有未來的一天跟我們一起繼續所有事情像鳳林"},{"start":5826.626,"end":5827.927,"text":"謝謝王美惠 接下來請黃婕蕙委員發言"},{"start":5856.144,"end":5860.267,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請農業部次長請農業部次長好杜次長早安那今天這個談到花蓮艷澀湖的事情其實真的非常難過因為上週我也有去到現場那其實看到現場真的是很震撼也非常難過那我也是在那邊協助了一整天那也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的"},{"start":5885.205,"end":5903.605,"text":"那首先要請教的次長先請教次長的還是這個精準造冊跟弱勢方案撤離的事情因為其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩然後也很多是行動不便或者是他沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群"},{"start":5904.346,"end":5909.387,"text":"所以我在看到我們農業部其實這一次是依照這個艷澀湖警戒監測跟撤離和演練方案應該是依照這個原則來進行撤離的但是可以看到因為花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群甚至是說可能所有的住戶都沒有精準的造冊導致說第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上"},{"start":5929.372,"end":5954.74,"text":"甚至到後來對於災民包括如何領便當如何聯繫如何提供物資還有安置的方案等等都變成沒有辦法進行所以精準造冊真的非常的重要尤其是裡面到底有哪一些是弱勢族群應該要優先挑出來的那就剛剛次長的報告其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群甚至要提早進行撤離"},{"start":5956.04,"end":5979.717,"text":"這個其實我在高雄非常有感因為我們在高雄在做的也都是甚至是黃色警箭就進行預防性的撤離那甚至這個預防性撤離是知道說這一戶家裡有人行動不便那我們派車去載你是做到這種程度所以這一次我很難過的是說那就像這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間去協助他們從家裡帶他們出來這個非常非常的重要"},{"start":5984.961,"end":6003.072,"text":"甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊第一時間不知道警報聲音可能他聽不到那這些人到底怎麼辦所以我在這邊建議因為其實我看到這個你們依照這個驗色壺警戒監測及撤離演練方案裡面是不是可以把它寫得更細"},{"start":6004.52,"end":6026.026,"text":"我只能寫得更細緻說因為像你們在土石流跟大規模崩塌的防災疏散避難規定裡面其實有寫到說要把這個弱勢族群要執行民眾的疏散避難與收容其實是相對的寫得比較細緻一點所以我在這邊具體的建議是不是堰塞湖這個的避難方案"},{"start":6027.006,"end":6044.528,"text":"也把弱勢族群到底如何把這個明確的SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情我們可不可以來研擬這是應該要的謝謝委員提醒我想其實這次真是沒人願意看到這樣狀況但是在這樣慘痛的事情之後我想只能求接下來希望能夠更"},{"start":6045.689,"end":6072.088,"text":"避免這樣的事情發生那對於各項的原則都有但是應該要做到更精準的掌握跟落實的去執行所以即便是在中央災害面中心成立在9月21號其實我們就已經通知說就弱勢族群請優先趕快撤離但是確實是在這個不管是資訊的掌握上面名冊也好或是怎麼去舒展這塊我想將來都還有在經濟空間確保我想在"},{"start":6072.808,"end":6099.219,"text":"人員的安全的保障這塊其實是我們所有防災最重要的事情好這個真的要拜託次長因為我在這邊也不想真的再究責誰也不想說這個是分中央還是地方的責任而是既然現在我們發現有事情如果可以做得更好或許可以挽救更多人的生命那我們就來做吧如果地方政府確實力有畏大或是他們他們的能力或許"},{"start":6100.339,"end":6118.48,"text":"不如我們地方中央來協助的話那我認為中央就應該要來協助所以我相信救人這件事情沒有在分的所以真的拜託如果可以我們就把它訂得更細緻那如果地方政府他們沒有發現這個是必須要改善的問題那我們就來協助吧"},{"start":6119.161,"end":6126.371,"text":"好這個要拜託那當然我也很感謝農業部啦因為其實我看到這個林保署的影片他們長途跋涉跟成大的團隊還有我們這個特遣隊到這個夜色湖的現場然後是這樣經過五天"},{"start":6134.332,"end":6156.431,"text":"然後甚至是涉嫌走這個受盡走一些舊林道然後走到現場去把這些現場的畫面記錄下來以及記錄現場最新的這個蓄水量都是他們在現場監測那我覺得這個是必須要給他們肯定也非常感謝他們謝謝我們農業部好謝謝那我們剩下一點時間我們拜託那個內政部劉部長請劉部長"},{"start":6164.213,"end":6178.518,"text":"委員好好部長好在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統或者是廣播系統出狀況了"},{"start":6183.82,"end":6209.473,"text":"他們是會派動所有的區長那邊的所長甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮因為看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場"},{"start":6210.273,"end":6228.721,"text":"那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報"},{"start":6230.682,"end":6250.772,"text":"現在我們的備變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息"},{"start":6251.892,"end":6278.559,"text":"那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考"},{"start":6280.76,"end":6306.475,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對 那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時"},{"start":6310.217,"end":6332.219,"text":"那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面的都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握的很好"},{"start":6332.719,"end":6348.924,"text":"好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛朝會委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那當然沒辦法指揮沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說"},{"start":6352.245,"end":6379.916,"text":"政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢"},{"start":6380.476,"end":6397.384,"text":"我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個"},{"start":6407.968,"end":6431.624,"text":"調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢"},{"start":6431.764,"end":6460.33,"text":"報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特收隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡"},{"start":6461.11,"end":6478.322,"text":"那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事"},{"start":6489.21,"end":6510.505,"text":"所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站"},{"start":6511.025,"end":6533.875,"text":"分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助"},{"start":6534.495,"end":6558.889,"text":"第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己自我保護最重要要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項"},{"start":6559.449,"end":6579.575,"text":"是啦 我覺得這次真的是非常好的一個經驗那最後還是要拜託部長我覺得這個大馬村的王村長模式必須要建立這是我認為今天最重要的一件事情希望未來每一個社區都可以像王村長這樣做到百分之百的撤離好 我們會來努力好 謝謝部長好 謝謝王傑委員接下來我們請徐宇甄委員發言"},{"start":6593.982,"end":6603.608,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝召委我們請劉世芳劉部長跟園民會曾主委還有農業部杜汶珍請以上列到列席徐汶豪部長好還有曾主委還有杜次長我想這一次的這個花家沙颱風的來襲造成了很大的一個災害這也是我們今天這個該這個專報所要大家共同來探討"},{"start":6623.18,"end":6629.824,"text":"事前跟事後未來要怎麼來去預防的方式那當然因為這一次在9月21號上午9點召開首次的會議開始"},{"start":6634.815,"end":6661.994,"text":"當時這個馬太安溪這個堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右那一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村裡那大概也大概只有600人但是在晚間6點的時候召開第三次會議的時候撤離的人數就從600人要增加到七八千人所以包括鳳林鎮長光復鄉長都說在短期內要通知這些民眾要離開是有困難的"},{"start":6662.754,"end":6678.869,"text":"他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了那我們來看一下在林保署他的通報時間說有總共有九次的通報撤離包括我們看到第一次是在9月20的一般警戒第二次是在9月21、11點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後"},{"start":6682.512,"end":6700.832,"text":"那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是鹿警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流會那請花蓮縣政府立即這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施"},{"start":6701.26,"end":6726.572,"text":"然後到9月23 2點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離這個應該是有"},{"start":6732.915,"end":6752.887,"text":"我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家莎風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎"},{"start":6754.417,"end":6769.36,"text":"我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的區域我現在指的是畫家沙封災對 畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少"},{"start":6785.191,"end":6788.493,"text":"所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責"},{"start":6802.68,"end":6814.518,"text":"那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎"},{"start":6817.369,"end":6840.328,"text":"就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對 那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛 對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對"},{"start":6842.289,"end":6845.831,"text":"花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里"},{"start":6859.519,"end":6886.798,"text":"兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長 光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離"},{"start":6887.939,"end":6904.575,"text":"報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候呢我們也邀集包括這個花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的這個人數往上調升"},{"start":6905.115,"end":6930.147,"text":"到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協作一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們"},{"start":6932.208,"end":6933.809,"text":"那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎嚴副縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復襄公所待命"},{"start":6945.083,"end":6965.298,"text":"那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報"},{"start":6977.221,"end":6997.128,"text":"報告委員 這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在艷澀湖的因為它並不是法定可以使用海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令就對了 是嗎我特別要 這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過 它欠缺法源"},{"start":6997.796,"end":7018.87,"text":"但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為"},{"start":7020.511,"end":7027.038,"text":"因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字它會更聽細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶"},{"start":7040.55,"end":7057.999,"text":"922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些就是只要在光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在框鏈的區通通都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":7058.859,"end":7068.144,"text":"其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快因為還有包含其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要"},{"start":7084.152,"end":7102.896,"text":"趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人"},{"start":7105.373,"end":7108.676,"text":"來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百"},{"start":7125.489,"end":7128.872,"text":"4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您"},{"start":7141.542,"end":7158.85,"text":"這個社會防禁委員會主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備你跟我講不是它是在重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防疫任性我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的我們要這個目前有多少名利請問一下"},{"start":7160.356,"end":7184.564,"text":"部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再去查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工"},{"start":7185.464,"end":7206.791,"text":"那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下 也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們在全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎"},{"start":7208.064,"end":7214.546,"text":"就是我剛所說的我們有一些易景易銷民房全部加在內去年應該說今年有三億八千多萬的一個經費請問一下在這一次的這個我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果"},{"start":7226.81,"end":7234.591,"text":"跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用"},{"start":7255.735,"end":7268.473,"text":"因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要"},{"start":7270.02,"end":7286.25,"text":"去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明這是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是1777"},{"start":7288.905,"end":7294.569,"text":"那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候"},{"start":7317.366,"end":7321.629,"text":"應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限"},{"start":7334.418,"end":7351.044,"text":"但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種救災的時候發揮效果不好意思 還沒訓練但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動一定要好好的事後檢討我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位"},{"start":7351.784,"end":7360.508,"text":"而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候中央市要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內"},{"start":7379.978,"end":7383.481,"text":"717人為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛人力就是不夠志工他自願來幫忙我們非常感謝那如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個"},{"start":7402.058,"end":7420.402,"text":"這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離"},{"start":7425.868,"end":7446.206,"text":"有啊 我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園 原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助"},{"start":7447.947,"end":7450.19,"text":"那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個"},{"start":7465.146,"end":7478.218,"text":"在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個華家山風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後"},{"start":7487.318,"end":7506.91,"text":"警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全那我覺得其實在不管是國家公園署跟警察局都已經知道要料敵從嚴的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為劃加沙風災要來"},{"start":7512.324,"end":7532.472,"text":"所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝"},{"start":7536.015,"end":7550.025,"text":"好謝謝許正委員接下來請高津素梅委員來質詢那在高津素梅質詢在這個李博義委員質詢之後我們再休息請高津素梅委員"},{"start":7555.075,"end":7580.425,"text":"謝謝昭緯 昭緯今天排的是堰塞湖的監測災害的預警通報 疏散機制還有災害復原的重建今天這個議題非常的沉重我相信不管是任何在這邊的立法委員還有在場的官員們我們都不願意發生這樣的情況所以今天我們在討論這件事情的時候我希望大家能夠非常的嚴肅"},{"start":7581.886,"end":7601.657,"text":"而且要心懷善意而不是站在政黨的立場來看這件事情這是一個中央的機制這是一個政策的問題所以我必須要說今天來了非常多的部會我一一的唱名讓大家知道內政部"},{"start":7602.797,"end":7618.405,"text":"內政部裡面有消防署災害管理署職通作業中心準備應變署警政署民防指揮管制所國土管理署民政司然後園民會也來了農業部也來了"},{"start":7619.537,"end":7642.037,"text":"然後今天還有經濟部水利署環境部環境管理署資源巡迴署衛生福利部有社會救助以及社公司心理建設師醫事師疾病管制署以及中央健康保險署醫務管理署行政院公共工程委員會技術署"},{"start":7643.14,"end":7670.752,"text":"大家可以看到光是一個風災或者是一個艷澀湖的災難中央部會就這麼多部會我今天我很想請問當然今天是內政部有來我們先請部長然後農業部也有來次長常務次長也有來原民會我請您也上台那其他的待會我們再請上台"},{"start":7673.393,"end":7695.322,"text":"我相信在場的大家我們大家都要向第一線投入搶災搶救的產值超人還有志工以及自發資源的鄉親致上我們最深的記憶他們用他們的雙手撐起了人性的光輝"},{"start":7696.582,"end":7709.552,"text":"而第一個我想問的是在艷澀湖的監測上面我的結論是我不想講細節的問題但是我的感受是我們中央政府你們掉以輕心了"},{"start":7710.899,"end":7726.359,"text":"你們的報告上面也說早在7月26號你們已經開始監測並且在8月27號已經成立了專案小組這意味著什麼呢這意味著中央你們有超過一個月的應變的準備時間"},{"start":7728.584,"end":7741.519,"text":"然而中央低估了災情的嚴重性你們認為它只是一個艷色湖你們認為它的水位沒有到多少所以沒有立即的危險但是你們忘了9月份的時候卻是台灣最多颱風的時候"},{"start":7746.625,"end":7751.469,"text":"你知道颱風現在氣候變遷所有的雨下絕對是急劇的下來所以其實你們我要說你們釣魚清新了大家都不願意這件事情發生所以我覺得就因為你們的釣魚清新讓整個應變的機制從源頭就已經失能了我很覺得奇怪也納悶既然中央已經知道這麼嚴重"},{"start":7774.268,"end":7794.884,"text":"為什麼不召開一個非常正式的記者會對外來說明有可能這個艷澀湖會造成什麼樣的災難因為你只是在鎖定光復鄉只是鎖定在地方政府但是有非常多的家人已經離開了光復鄉在外面工作了"},{"start":7795.945,"end":7806.095,"text":"所以呢如果我們的政府可以像一般國外海嘯要來的時候事先先發布一個正式的記者會我相信這樣子的一個記者會會讓當地的鄉親或者是在外的鄉親我們會嚴正以待我們會非常重視這件事情而不是到了"},{"start":7818.887,"end":7835.768,"text":"緊急的時候部長說一個垂直避難請問一下在那麼短的時間之內你要怎麼疏散八千多人所以我認為真的是掉以輕心了你們可以不用回答然後第二個災害預警通報跟疏散的機制"},{"start":7837.301,"end":7852.408,"text":"因為掉以輕心所以整個中央單位地方單位大家是驚嚇大家是混亂的所以呢我們的預警階段的輕忽導致第一時間的應對也陷入了混亂第一時間我就打電話請我們"},{"start":7857.338,"end":7874.226,"text":"部落的有小怪手的然後有這個工作能力的組織了一個小小的團隊進入到了我們的災區一村一村而我自己也進去了已經到了幾天我還看到地方非常的混亂"},{"start":7875.487,"end":7891.747,"text":"有看到國軍了有看到中央的應對小組了有看到地方的應對小組了可是我發現中央你們的橫向聯繫也非常的混亂甚至於你們跟地方的縱向聯繫也非常的混亂我不知道"},{"start":7893.729,"end":7905.478,"text":"我不知道是溝通不良呢還是故意的有政治的居心我希望不要有政治的居心而這樣子的混亂導致了指揮鏈的崩潰這是我對這一次的災害所下的兩個結論當然災防法上面要怎麼樣進行更氣質的修法還有分級的規範我在這邊請召委"},{"start":7923.069,"end":7944.157,"text":"也能夠安排來相關的修法我們討論我們讓一些災防法他能夠更明確的更清楚的來討論來修法好不好我們不希望下次再有這麼樣混亂的局面出現好其實有一些相關的我們請部長留下來農業部你們可以先"},{"start":7949.071,"end":7974.084,"text":"先休息一下 園民會主委你也可以在場我問一下內政部的部長 請問在受災戶的基本數據上面是不是已經掌握到了受災戶的總數因為今天第三個最重要的議題就是災害復原的重建這也是所有民眾最想要知道的所以如果你沒有災戶的總數的話"},{"start":7976.485,"end":7992.645,"text":"或者是原住民跟漢人家庭的具體住戶的數據然後依據他的損毀的程度來劃分重中輕的級別還有中低收入戶的識別的統計我們如果沒有這些數據"},{"start":7995.073,"end":8022.767,"text":"繼續要混亂下去嗎請問部長報告委員我們在第一時間內行政院也就通知也是受到這樣子的影響我們公布了這次花蓮縣這三個鄉鎮那同時我們以這個9月21當時公布的1837戶為原則來處理後面的包括很多這個不管修繕也好或是家園復原的部分所以1837戶是非常明確的數字所以所有光復鄉這次驗射湖的災民總共1837戶"},{"start":8025.538,"end":8026.003,"text":"原名有幾戶"},{"start":8029.519,"end":8044.024,"text":"謝謝我們這裡看原住民的戶數大概是有1772戶所以1837戶原住民就占了1700多戶就是原住民的戶數請你講正確的戶數大概是1772戶1772所以剛剛部長說所有的災民是1837戶原住民就占了1772戶是這樣子嗎沒有錯嗎這樣子的數據請問主委"},{"start":8059.407,"end":8060.391,"text":"請問部長 原住民的戶數是1772戶 請問部長"},{"start":8065.27,"end":8091.354,"text":"我們是協助為主所以原住民他的認定就是以原住民認定為主好所以1837戶原住民就佔了1772所以是原住民的族人是受災最多的那我要再繼續問一下主委在1772戶裡面有多少是中低收入戶有多少戶是重度的他可能要遷村的"},{"start":8091.934,"end":8099.498,"text":"有多少戶他是中度的也就是說他的家園他可能損壞他還可以進去住那有一些可能只是他的電器設備裝潢受災損這些數據你有嗎我跟委員報告這個低收入戶還有中低收入戶我們都有大概是232加212"},{"start":8114.704,"end":8140.402,"text":"232加什麼232的低收入戶然後212是中低收入戶232戶是低收入戶那麼各位報告我剛剛說的有沒有分我剛剛說的就是重度災難中度跟輕度這樣子的數據是多少這個我們要先做安全的評估啦安全評估要先做出來"},{"start":8141.997,"end":8163.382,"text":"房屋的結構安全的這個評估要先做出來 還沒有做但是重點是現在是這樣 各位報告沒有沒有沒有 主委主委主委你先停一下安全評估報告是後續那你現在應該這些戶數都出來了應該很清楚知道有哪些是不能回家的嘛"},{"start":8164.4,"end":8175.644,"text":"有沒有有我們跟他們在做部落會議不能回家你不要講部落會議我先問你不能回家的有幾戶那不能回家的我們才會有後續啊要怎麼樣安置他們啊能夠回家的我們要怎麼樣協助他們啊對不對來麻煩比較確定是49戶了49戶怎麼樣"},{"start":8188.513,"end":8192.097,"text":"安置在民宿現在不能夠回家的4449戶沒有辦法回家沒有辦法回家然後中渡呢"},{"start":8196.857,"end":8225.306,"text":"我們就是中渡的部分我們還要再查他可以回去啦因為現在不是都清的差不多了嗎他應該都知道他能夠回去因為我們鄉親很不喜歡離開家鄉那有多少戶中渡有的是一清有的是回去我知道不要浪費時間好沒關係這些確定的數據麻煩您在我的辦公室再告訴我你們要怎麼後續做好不好"},{"start":8225.765,"end":8250.595,"text":"另外我要請部長部長你身為警消人員的大家長在這裡我有一個請求就是要幫忙辛苦的警消人員因為有許多警察的私家車他在執勤的時候也是泡水受損了但是依照現行的規定他們只是修復或轉售他們連一毛補助都拿不到"},{"start":8251.235,"end":8265.031,"text":"而這些為民擋災的基層人員他今天要自己承受損失我請問一下部長你有沒有聽過這第一線的警消人員他的心聲他們可以納入被排場的範圍嗎"},{"start":8266.432,"end":8292.394,"text":"報告委員我們在第一時間內有有到三四個這個我們的第一線的這個派出所裡面去慰請那這道狀況如果是公務車的話呢我們按照公務車的修復或者公務車的補償這個我們警消自己會用預算來處理那如果是私家的部分假設他也是屬於1837戶的受災範圍內的話現在我們這個行政院的一站式服務有針對報廢車也有做提供這樣子的補償的機制不好意思部長你可能還"},{"start":8293.335,"end":8301.257,"text":"不夠精準因為他如果他不是這個1837戶的人但是事實上他是在那邊工作他沒有戶籍在那裡那他怎麼處理因為您所提到的1837戶我們確定譬如說有8000多的人口但是他是在那個地方等於是他是不在籍但是在那邊執勤"},{"start":8316.42,"end":8339.526,"text":"那執勤的部分的話我們會來做部分的補償我知道您的意思是他去那邊上班然後他是私家車他不是公務車這個我們來處理請部長我短暫時間內會去了解一下其實這些在第一線擋災的警消人員他們負擔也很重的我知道他們非常的辛苦所以我們有保警來做替代"},{"start":8340.326,"end":8343.552,"text":"一個禮拜以後有八十一個人在替代我希望部長也能夠清楚知道他們的困境不好意思召委我再花一點時間我要要求一下請園民會請請你們"},{"start":8353.415,"end":8378.105,"text":"一周之內提交幾個報告給我第一個是臨時工作人員的名冊當然在保護個資之下他的薪資、他的保險、經費明細還有受災戶的細部統計第二個就是青年參與重建決策的會議記錄還有後續執行成果第三個原民服務台每天受理案件跟主要需求的分析報告"},{"start":8379.245,"end":8383.468,"text":"第四個 災後無法營業的原住民商家的清澈當然這是有營業登記的還有整體扶植的計畫因為這些商家也很辛苦第五個 災後就職的轉嫌還有部落的再生計畫說明如何從上工來銜接到產業賠利還有長期的就業這五個麻煩提出來給我然後在這裡我要請相關部會"},{"start":8409.706,"end":8415.229,"text":"只要是今天有來的話麻煩一下你們也在兩週內提供第一個近5年的艷澀湖的災情的通報撤離啟動還有實際人數的統計並且要檢討制度的落差第二個要研議災防法第24條以及執法的修正草案第三個"},{"start":8433.722,"end":8453.732,"text":"重整災害緊急通報的格式要明確的標示警戒的分級執行責任跟法律的效力這個可能要請部長辛苦一下本席也要求按照災防法第37條災後復原重建的程序請在場的各部會"},{"start":8457.359,"end":8463.78,"text":"給本席一份完整的規劃報告最後我要講的是重建不該只於補貼還有清瑜更應該要補起制度的漏洞要重建人民的信任如果制度依舊是冷漠的下一次的災難不僅僅是摧毀我們的道路還有家園更會摧毀我們人民對國家的信任希望今天在場的所有官員公務人員們"},{"start":8487.144,"end":8501.811,"text":"緊記的這件我最後所說的話災害如果不好好的做他不是摧毀家園而是摧毀我們人民對國家的信任這是非常重要的以上謝謝謝謝高金委員的發言接下來我們請傅坤祺召委發言"},{"start":8542.048,"end":8546.392,"text":"那個主席 請劉部長有請劉部長部委好部長請問從馬太西燕色湖不幸事件到現在已經21天請問檢討報告出來沒有我們在今天對於內政委員會裡面的報告就是內政部的完整的報告就是檢討報告是什麼"},{"start":8571.412,"end":8575.234,"text":"它是一個整體的報告包括從監測疫情到疏散我們現在仍然在救災當中我們可不可以等那個所有的救災都結束的時候再一起跟你們報告還沒有完整 它需要更新這一次驗射壺不幸事件到底是溢流還是潰壩"},{"start":8594.56,"end":8610.318,"text":"我想這專有名詞是不是可以請林保署來做回應因為在監測的時候不管是異流或是潰堤這次華家沙颱風跟夜色湖不慶事件遮陽災應變中心指揮官是誰是我"},{"start":8612.304,"end":8640.626,"text":"是你所以現在到底是潰壩還是議題你到今天還沒有辦法搞清楚是嗎我想不是這樣子的解釋跟副委員報告我們有提到說他從一流開始到最後下切到非常嚴重的時候可能有產生潰壩但是這樣的專有名詞的解釋還是需要以專家他們的認定為主我並不是說不知道所以說指揮官到現在都還不知道是一流跟潰壩"},{"start":8641.974,"end":8656.864,"text":"還沒有辦法做最後的定義就對了所以你還在狀況外就對了沒有抱歉我們的意思就是說既然它產生災害我們就在中央災害應變中心以應變的方式來處理所有這樣子的天然災害好在發生事件之前所有行政院各部會會診的資料是溢流還是潰壩災害發生之前是溢流還是潰壩"},{"start":8673.902,"end":8676.125,"text":"所以農業部沒有跟您開過會是嗎所以你都在狀況外都不了解嗎"},{"start":8696.162,"end":8703.649,"text":"為什麼在國會殿堂到今天事發21天你都還不敢在這裡承認是逆流還是潰壩請告訴全國人民是逆流還是潰壩"},{"start":8710.25,"end":8718.718,"text":"都有可能但是我們跟委員所說的現在定義不明確的狀況之下我們無法做這樣子的明確的解釋到現在說可能是潰壩也可能是溢流好在災情發生之前你們提的報告是溢流還潰壩我可不可以請林保守跟你回答本席請你回答你是指揮官"},{"start":8732.561,"end":8748.164,"text":"報告委員我一再強調我知道但是是華家沙颱風成立的中央災害應變中心我是擔任指揮官但是在這之前謝謝你終於再記得你是指揮官在9月23號本席因為等卓榮泰院長來拜訪最後請我到中央災害應變中心去本席去了"},{"start":8760.031,"end":8765.655,"text":"本席在當場聽到您的報告是不是講一流是不是是不是您的報告是不是講一流還有錄音錄影喔是因為我是引用您保守的資料摘錢在發生前幾個小時應變中心指揮官還說是一流謝謝你"},{"start":8784.622,"end":8794.507,"text":"本席那天特別當了索隆泰院長跟各部會指揮官尤其是您面前本席特別提到在8月13號丹納斯特別條例通過的時候把馬太西堰舍湖納入必須要徹底解決農業部長陳俊濟當眾表達沒有立即性的危險"},{"start":8813.851,"end":8841.921,"text":"本席當天還特別強調為什麼說沒有立即性的危險然後現在說可能會逆流好本席那天講的話你既然報告裡沒有寫到本席的名字請你完整一下把我當天提出來的意見要寫上去今天你的報告有提到本席的名字請把本席當天講的事情一併寫清楚再過來請問一下指揮官"},{"start":8843.638,"end":8862.168,"text":"什麼時候發布紅色警戒總諮詢問過一次再問一次紅色警戒中央災害應變中心什麼時候發布紅色警戒9月22日早上7點北溪在問部長嗎"},{"start":8864.301,"end":8873.307,"text":"部長是不知道這個時間還要你來講嗎報告委員我們都非常清楚發射紅色警戒是農業部要負責發射北溪問題都是很簡單的問題所以所以9月22號上午7點紅色警戒部長是嗎是嗎"},{"start":8887.581,"end":8900.966,"text":"剛剛我們的林保署的署長已經跟您這個問題還要請別人回答你沒有辦法我們的全責分工上面非常的清楚報告委員全責分工很清楚指揮官什麼都不知道就對了9月17號農業部的報告在運會總質詢問過一次農業部當天好這請農業部來回答當天9月17號農業部的報告"},{"start":8916.067,"end":8917.508,"text":"說到撤離人數是多少人陳俊基已經在院會講過了跟委員報告那個時候還沒有花家殺颱風的因素不是嘛就告訴本席嘛你們很奇怪耶你問你自己提出的報告上面寫幾個人還有這麼多理由嗎"},{"start":8938.306,"end":8958.97,"text":"58戶但是人數是由地方政府提供人數是由地方政府提供的請你看一下你農業部的報告是嗎上面是寫45人但是那個人數是地方政府提供的我們只框定區域58戶45人而且那個下面還有一個附註他是說不包含會提的影響那個委員剛剛那句話下面還有一句話再過來"},{"start":8966.195,"end":8969.417,"text":"9月21號農業部的報告9月21號好洪峰到達的時間從本來的95分鐘修正到多少本來的95分鐘請次長來回答你們不要在那裡120分鐘所以"},{"start":8995.461,"end":9022.252,"text":"原本預估是95分鐘在9月21號改成120分鐘認為災情即便是有災情沒有這麼嚴重是90分鐘延到120分鐘然後要撤離的對象從修正前也就是楊柳颱風楊柳颱風撤離多少戶多少人最後是將近700人259戶697人"},{"start":9026.738,"end":9048.783,"text":"你們9月21號修正以後是多少比楊柳颱風多還是比楊柳颱風少也是差不多600多人那個範圍有稍微縮減一點但是也有新的增加但是這個是我還是要說明一下本席在說話請你回答再會請你你們的資料改從259戶的楊柳颱風改成縮小範圍180戶"},{"start":9055.524,"end":9084.794,"text":"這是農業部的資料清清楚楚好所以這不是不叫而殺而已啊是農業部的範圍整體一直在縮小我跟委員報告這個隨著情勢一定會一直調整的所以請劉部長您剛剛在本委員會報告說好9月21號下午"},{"start":9086.181,"end":9100.288,"text":"下午3點以後改成撤離將近1800戶對不對總共1837戶當時是黃色警戒還是紅色警戒 9月21號9月21號當時還沒有紅色警戒對 所以是什麼警戒黃 黃色警戒所以當時的黃色警戒要撤離哪些人依法要撤離哪些人"},{"start":9113.632,"end":9141.597,"text":"報告委員9月21號下午3點是一個檢討的會議跟討論的會議所以我們當時已經決定採用台大團隊最高的標準本席現在再一次請教您要撤離哪些人黃色警戒本席先問一個最簡單的題目9月21號貴行政院指揮中心黃色警戒要撤離的是"},{"start":9142.521,"end":9167.143,"text":"行動不變的人你都到今天還搞不清楚本席告訴你行動不變的人所以45位行動不變在這一次完全免於災就在黃色警戒的時候45位愛養中心的全部撤離因為那個時候黃色警戒是要撤離行動不變好9月22號上午7點紅色警戒"},{"start":9171.001,"end":9187.734,"text":"到9月23號自災短短一天之內請問行政院災害應變中心有沒有跟地方政府來協調來輔導來核定怎麼樣的疏散計畫 有沒有"},{"start":9192.012,"end":9201.716,"text":"報告委員到紅色警戒開始的時候是強制撤離強制撤離的時候就是開始要疏散所有在強制撤離的範圍有作業規定嘛行政院都已經上次總質詢上禮拜二總質詢已經就教過了嘛到現在你們都還搞不清楚嗎這麼大的範圍從185變成1800再變成8600人"},{"start":9223.41,"end":9235.488,"text":"你們的整體的疏散計畫有七個部會必須要來輔導而且必須要來核定你們在22號早上有沒有積極的來處理這個問題 有沒有"},{"start":9239.232,"end":9258.164,"text":"我們當然是非常積極 這是法律規定的作用規定有沒有有沒有報告委員強制疏散撤離如果才需要公文來核定的話太慢應該是所有的人開始要做動作那這些動作需要法軍或是替代役幫忙我們都全力協助強制撤離是由哪一個單位來執行還是由地方政府包括花蓮縣政府以及三個鄉鎮公所"},{"start":9269.226,"end":9298.073,"text":"胡說八道由國軍跟其他的人來協助胡說八道災害防救法第十條水災潛勢地區速產作業標準這是常識你在高雄市政府擔任過秘書長不要在這裡裝瞎我在高雄市政府沒有擔任過秘書長你是副市長沒有關係不要裝瞎不要裝瞎災害防救法第十條"},{"start":9300.302,"end":9327.57,"text":"水災潛勢危險地區撤離標準作業程序誰哪個單位政府哪個單位負責哪個單位負責哪個單位負責水災的部分是由經濟部但是呢我們依據災害防救法的第10條鄉鎮市山地原住民以及山地原住民災害防救匯報的核定"},{"start":9330.498,"end":9351.167,"text":"是由哪個單位負責撤離我剛已經跟那個委員報告過了你不認識字嗎你照這個第十條念出來給我聽不要在這裡裝瞎嘛再加上經濟部災害防救法第十條是指鄉鎮三地原住民區公所跟三地原住民的災害防救匯報他們的任務鄉鎮市還有三地原住民區域地方的鄉鎮公所及"},{"start":9359.938,"end":9385.931,"text":"山地原住民區域防救匯報任務如下所有這些疏散作業是由執行單位是哪個單位剛剛我跟委員報告過了再把潛勢溪流這個水災辦法水災的潛勢溪流我想是由經濟部來主導來疏散及收容作業"},{"start":9388.414,"end":9403.703,"text":"蘇珊吉收容作業是哪個單位負責蘇珊吉撤離作業都是依照災害防救法相關規定縣市政府還有鄉鎮公所來做主導你不要一直扯縣市政府嘛你連白紙黑紙都不會讀嗎哪一個政府單位負責撤離作業縣市政府跟鄉鎮公所你是瞎了是嗎"},{"start":9418.479,"end":9420.24,"text":"你把全文讀一次給本席聽你們今天全部人都裝瞎這個不會讀是嗎要不要到國小重新讀一支書讀一次讀一次"},{"start":9448.369,"end":9476.777,"text":"這下市及縣市政府應督導鄉鎮市區公所辦理撤離作業整備並落實疏散避難計劃鄉鎮市公所應整備事項如下有五項好講得很清楚了你們不要在這裡影射攻擊撤離單位不管是颱風全國各縣市都一樣你可以下去了"},{"start":9477.452,"end":9506.995,"text":"你可以下去請部長上來每一個縣市政府都做過颱風的撤離颱風的撤離所有撤離的工作由鄉鎮市公所各區區公所來撤離所有該區的警察消防軍卡預知兵力通通由鄉鎮市公所區政府區公所來負責撤離的工作"},{"start":9507.588,"end":9536.587,"text":"把資料撤離之後匯整到縣市政府縣市政府是報到中央災害應變中心所有縣市政府的能量全部下放到各鄉鎮公所應變中心由各鄉鎮公所應變中心來指揮這是最基本的Lesson 1叫你們念念國字都不敢念天天栽贓花蓮縣政府好 你們要栽贓花蓮縣政府 可以"},{"start":9537.358,"end":9546.804,"text":"撤離執行單位就是鄉鎮市公所白紙黑字的法律規定再過來你說扯到花蓮縣政府可以花蓮縣政府之前所有中央災害應變中心要求他們撤離是600人楊柳颱風8月12號撤離600人所以所以"},{"start":9566.684,"end":9581.529,"text":"剛剛還有人提大馬村全數撤離大馬村就是楊柳颱風600人裡面全村就在那個範圍就是因為在那個範圍所以全數撤離因為他們已經全部撤離過一次這次是第二次本席在這裡啊隆重告訴你行政院政務委員金連成現在在花蓮前進協調所跟地方政府"},{"start":9596.973,"end":9618.479,"text":"協調七個部會依法要輔導地方政府要核定疏散疏散計畫疏散路線疏散收容還有五個部會必須跟地方政府要來對整個收容的整備計畫要做出來現在從10月3號討論到"},{"start":9623.652,"end":9635.979,"text":"從10月3號討論到現在11天都還沒有演練都還沒有核定你短短9月22號紅色警戒9月22號紅色警戒你要一天之內要光復相公所撤離8600人從600人變成8600人當然我要對部長"},{"start":9650.168,"end":9674.494,"text":"你給地方的建議可以垂直撤離已經事實證明垂直撤離是不可行的所以這也是固然是撤離的方式之一但是過去台灣都沒有使用過這次您特別強調劉部長要不要我幫您回憶一下還是要放您的錄音帶給您聽聽看有沒有需要謝謝委員指教"},{"start":9679.605,"end":9683.813,"text":"要垂直撤離嘛最多是家門口有水淹過而已嘛"},{"start":9684.361,"end":9709.782,"text":"報告委員我想我的實意不是這個樣子我正在從當時的所有的直播的狀況錄音錄影的部分把原先所講的字數或是我講的部分全部把它一字一字把它列出來那我所了解不是這樣的狀況委員可能誤解人生沒有關係啦全國國人可以來看啦報告委員隨時避難的人數呢總共是5348人檢討報告有一個很重要我請你啊"},{"start":9713.53,"end":9719.034,"text":"本席在詢問法務部在詢問左院長通通詢問過請您把檢討報告裡面要把這兩項加進去剛剛我謝謝蘇委員 蘇喬惠委員也有問過8月11號花蓮縣政府官務相公所 農業部 經濟部所做的決議有錄音 有會議記錄要求農業部必須釋放"},{"start":9743.857,"end":9755.966,"text":"海嘯警報請問指揮官放了沒有在9月23之前沒有釋放過9月23號當天海嘯來有釋放嗎沒有再過來農業部很奇怪經濟部有問題農業部又提醒農業部有問題但農業部又提醒經濟部"},{"start":9773.16,"end":9787.206,"text":"去年康瑞颱風就是從這次的一流口進來的兩個開口題要請他補起來有錄音有會計錄結果經濟部把這兩個開口題又沒有把它補好大水就是從那裡進來就是從那裡進來部長可以把這個納入檢討報告可以嗎"},{"start":9800.924,"end":9813.955,"text":"這個在我會請農業部跟經濟部把相關的會議記錄把它列出來給賴總統的報告前進協調所給賴總統報告第一頁就講得很清楚厭賽福警戒發布第一個就講得很清楚要發海嘯警報行政院在製證農業部其罪"},{"start":9829.66,"end":9853.79,"text":"還不只這樣行政院又自認經濟部其罪在前進協調所的報告10月4號完成第一道5米防線2860公尺5米高的防線還提前兩天作業完成8月11號會議記錄就叫他要做為什麼災後他才會做 災前都不會做"},{"start":9855.018,"end":9884.181,"text":"沒有那2870米是颱風來的時候沖毀的沒有關係啦不是在那次的專案小組專案小組會議的交代的事項我們都已經完成了你要回去跟卓榮泰院長講卓榮泰院長說要依法調查要依法調查還給王林啊還給王林一個公道你跟卓榮泰院長去報告吧他不查未來還有人會查"},{"start":9885.27,"end":9887.791,"text":"接下來最後我要請教劉思芳劉部長我們有沒有中央政府劉部長我們有沒有中央政府有沒有應變中心報告委員我們當然有中央政府但是中央災害應變中心注重在應變 請問一下災情發生之後到現在為了炒誰是主責"},{"start":9913.376,"end":9940.081,"text":"本席在10月7號問了左院長這一題問了整整三分鐘他才承認主責單位是行政院各部會災後救災的部分是行政院各部會那我請問一下鋪天蓋地的謠言依照災害防救法應該要來告發是三年以下有期徒刑病科罰金100萬請問內政部告發了幾件"},{"start":9943.92,"end":9967.167,"text":"報告委員我們尊重院長的指示先救災再救責那目前為止呢我們 從後災院長9月24號就去救責了講得這麼清楚報告委員我要放他的錄影帶出來再放給你看嗎我們現在收集到他到行政院提的施政總報告馬上就提要救責要查到底這是院長提的本席在這裡"},{"start":9973.522,"end":9997.268,"text":"證告你你說九次通報九次通報花蓮縣政府草菅人民不管九次通報是只有第九次是紅色警戒其他前面六次是八月的洋流颱風這種造謠的圖卡一天到晚在傳第二組黨一組團白飯或卓榮泰院長還說你們組黨一組團白飯請問一組團白飯部長"},{"start":10003.345,"end":10013.769,"text":"是誰阻擋的是誰阻擋的報告委員我不清楚那該不該要查報告委員我剛還沒有昨晚院長都公開講了嘛說你們黨議組團的白飯誰擋的報告委員我們現在收集的資料憲兵跟保警內政部來的保警擋下來的誰擋的"},{"start":10028.991,"end":10057.694,"text":"該不該當 本席問你該不該當報告委員 我還是跟委員報告就是我們現在在收集所有的資料本席讓你知道 你收集了這麼多天地方政府疲於救災十分的力量在救災還有透支二十分的力量來對付謠言所以請地方政府把這些謠言送給中央災害應變中心我們一定用災害防救法來移送 都沒有問題內政部這麼大的部沒有辦法查辦嗎 沒有辦法告發嗎一天到晚看到這些"},{"start":10058.598,"end":10064.043,"text":"本席沒有責怪沒有責怪憲兵因為他們在詢問是否有義務要進去災區災區裡面全部塞得滿滿有幾萬人在裡面種機械連會車都沒有辦法他們本來就要問你進來要幹什麼他們不只是一組團的白飯問清楚又讓他們進去了"},{"start":10086.755,"end":10112.914,"text":"也沒有阻擋 問清楚就進去了實際的藥品 問清楚也都進去了沒有一個 沒有一粒白飯擋在外面通通進來了再過來說獨輪車 花蓮先生把獨輪車藏起來了結果事實上是什麼事實上事實上是行政院的東辦的行政院東辦的倉庫不是花蓮先生我的倉庫再過來"},{"start":10115.31,"end":10123.356,"text":"所謂黨議組談白飯是為了圖利熱海便當這個花蓮縣陳王廟出來告了所有的熱海便當把熱海便當圖交出來熱海便當全部是陳王廟送的花蓮縣政府沒有買沒有買熱海便當全部在造謠還有高壓水槍"},{"start":10141.577,"end":10159.952,"text":"說富坤吉徐政委只會貼貼紙把人家捐出來的東西貼貼紙對不起啊這是花蓮縣政府環保局買的這是公務本來就應該要載明他是哪個單位的所屬還有七歲女童把管死掉了賺人熱淚後來是謠言這一次的救災荒腔走板主責單位是誰"},{"start":10171.247,"end":10182.114,"text":"問了卓榮泰院長 問了三分鐘他才說是行政院科部會這是我們的政府讓產值超人台灣有一流的國民無流的政府謝謝副總召的諮詢接下來我們請劉旭廷委員諮詢"},{"start":10202.157,"end":10204.662,"text":"謝謝主席 劉部長有請請部長月豪"},{"start":10211.991,"end":10238.151,"text":"部長辛苦了這個中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設9月21號下午5點半一級開設指揮官是你對不對剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事是化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心災害應變中心嘛對不對我們就講化家沙颱風因為其他還有像屏東跟台東他們也都是災區還有高雄所以那個化家沙成立的時候大家都知道化家沙成立他是從南台灣過去的"},{"start":10239.392,"end":10261.441,"text":"只不過在花蓮山區裡面他累積是大豪雨的雨量所以造成這次晏射湖的這個事件你不只是這次的指揮官我剛聽你回答我們副總召的質詢我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官原因是什麼呢因為在颱風之前你剛這我根據你剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷在沒有颱風的時候恐怕你也沒有角色沒辦法進場你也沒有辦法做指揮對不對"},{"start":10264.546,"end":10280.027,"text":"按照這個災害防救法確實沒有錯因為艷澀湖的組織機關在那個我們災害防救法現在是監測是由農業部來處理所以在這樣一個情況下甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話所以我講你很無奈"},{"start":10280.527,"end":10300.645,"text":"事實上我們當初也都非常相信都基於善意去相信政府的消息我們有在政論節目上面要評論等等受訪我們一開始也都講一流後來發現是潰壩這其實證明了一件事情就是說你中央整體啊在處理這花家沙的時候有一個多頭馬車的狀況彼此部會之間的認知不一樣所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛對不對你本來"},{"start":10304.909,"end":10331.377,"text":"這個到底要用一流的模型來做處理還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理來做後續的一些安排恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識對嗎我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分第一個持續監測的任務呢在農業部的林保署其實他們跟相當多的這個學者專家都有做研究但是你說使用的參數如果不一樣譬如說他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風"},{"start":10333.098,"end":10351.004,"text":"或者是說當時是天氣晴的狀況之下所以說可能會產生溢流那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話可能就會產生潰敵或是潰壩所以這樣的定義啊很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們那我們在中央災害醫院中心成立之後有做了很多作為也可以供大眾來檢視"},{"start":10352.424,"end":10366.482,"text":"那我就簡單來講嘛 對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛"},{"start":10368.004,"end":10393.766,"text":"那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢皮球是沒有什麼意思的啦因為"},{"start":10395.031,"end":10416.532,"text":"我剛剛都講了 連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓種 誰來認定這個事情 對不對是一直到應變中心 因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮 在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢 對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部 跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險 應該要疏散 可以嗎"},{"start":10417.432,"end":10444.834,"text":"好像不太行吧報告 報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對艷澀湖會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方"},{"start":10445.254,"end":10465.041,"text":"但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上"},{"start":10466.101,"end":10490.066,"text":"或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛"},{"start":10491.886,"end":10509.174,"text":"你有多大的權力負多大的責任但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎"},{"start":10510.857,"end":10523.857,"text":"一般來講 但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛 對不對它有聯邦情形事務管理署FEMA 對不對日本勒"},{"start":10525.205,"end":10542.364,"text":"日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災team嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等"},{"start":10545.567,"end":10560.717,"text":"變成災防就辦公室 變任務型編組現在是20幾個人 等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少 也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊 對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說記者圍觀表現還不錯"},{"start":10566.201,"end":10584.631,"text":"但是技術微觀之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了大家講說我們要趕快統合所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前會末鐘一事會多頭馬車呢那請問這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要我請問部長的意見"},{"start":10585.915,"end":10600.341,"text":"報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元"},{"start":10601.201,"end":10630.652,"text":"而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個字典會想要聽到的是我們中央接下答案怎麼做"},{"start":10631.192,"end":10655.613,"text":"三個方向 第一 也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等 但我認為總要討論 這第一第二 很多人談災害防救法也好 地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情 因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件 他講的就是失靈嘛 對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三 還是部長認為現行機制非常好 什麼都不用討論 請問是哪一個"},{"start":10656.653,"end":10682.66,"text":"我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅"},{"start":10683.34,"end":10703.814,"text":"你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個呢我希望那個消防署呢他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力"},{"start":10704.494,"end":10729.56,"text":"或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講你在災後上後調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源這我們都非常肯定但問題是現在在談的是前期嘛好你現在講消防組我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力他有辦法跟農業部林保署好好溝通然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前"},{"start":10730.916,"end":10740.974,"text":"他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛"},{"start":10741.38,"end":10767.898,"text":"了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了 狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩"},{"start":10769.759,"end":10795.494,"text":"所以意識不足 大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府 鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演"},{"start":10795.854,"end":10805.038,"text":"是真正要做疏散撤離這樣子才會把大家的危機意識提升你這還是都在討論法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事"},{"start":10822.926,"end":10848.999,"text":"這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後"},{"start":10850.16,"end":10874.862,"text":"你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等你做不做得到嘛你剛講你都有個但書嘛如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣你是做得到的那表示什麼在那個當下恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個"},{"start":10875.322,"end":10897.372,"text":"那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣空出更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛"},{"start":10898.032,"end":10922.934,"text":"所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案嗎我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演"},{"start":10923.516,"end":10928.899,"text":"報告委員因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置所以需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間"},{"start":10933.269,"end":10961.051,"text":"我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的艷澀湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為艷澀湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個九千一百萬方的這個艷澀湖我恐怕現在目前是最大的一個艷澀湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來三千一百萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有"},{"start":10961.812,"end":10963.573,"text":"不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成"},{"start":10969.997,"end":10989.867,"text":"你內閣部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各部的分工問題嘛我希望先從這個驗社活因為驗社活不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好"},{"start":10999.073,"end":11027.64,"text":"那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險"},{"start":11029.12,"end":11050.044,"text":"對 保險也好 宣導也好 這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行 可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫 我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分 不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以請無論如何確保他們安全 可以嗎可以嗎 確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好 謝謝"},{"start":11058.272,"end":11070.804,"text":"謝謝林徐廷委員 接下來請李柏毅請李柏毅委員質詢待會兒等張志文質詢完之後我們再休息"},{"start":11083.717,"end":11105.201,"text":"好 可以開始我所認識的劉世芳部長在我過去跟他共事的時候每次共事在開災變中心的會議的時候我們的劉副市長就是不見了他人在哪裡 在山區他人在做什麼 在撤離所以劉部長我請你先休息一下我先請農業部次長好 請農業部次長是 委員好"},{"start":11112.094,"end":11130.119,"text":"市長剛剛還有這個署長你們的報告裡面有寫到從煙澀湖從7月開始監測以來那我們到底農業部做了什麼除了監測那當然也有相關的這些疏菌的計畫那最後萬一有出現紅色警戒了那可能就是有一些撤離的方"},{"start":11130.598,"end":11158.705,"text":"撤離的這些方案那撤離的相關的權責的單位機關等等的其實剛才講制度講災防法都是為了要託責啊剛剛副總召講了這個災害防救法第10條規定是什麼其實他的重點是要把這個災防法第10條的規定說成是鄉鎮區公所他們的責任啊"},{"start":11159.773,"end":11186.042,"text":"一個花蓮縣政府要把這個撤離的責任推給鄉鎮市公所這個是剛剛結錄到的第一個重點第二個重點其實他沒有講到的在這個鄉鎮市公所撤離的責任之前災防法第四條災防法這一些督導管理這一些主管機關呢在直轄市是直轄市縣府而在縣市是縣市政府啊"},{"start":11187.031,"end":11207.542,"text":"所以公然的在立法院內政委員會把這個責任推給硬塞給鄉鎮市公所之外呢他也忘了讀第四條花蓮縣政府的職責是什麼但是我們今天說實在都不是要去究責是"},{"start":11209.55,"end":11225.561,"text":"是光復公所或者是村長那或者是縣政府其實我們是在討論這個我剛剛看到當是溢流的時候或者是可能有潰堤的危險的時候或者是因為這個颱風已經產生了幫我放這個颱風警報"},{"start":11231.451,"end":11256.626,"text":"或者是這個颱風已經產生了有可能要發布紅色警戒有可能目前是黃色警戒可能要撤離是多少人那剛剛副總召在這邊討論說你什麼時間是黃色警戒你專用災害應變中心你劉士芳部長要用最高的標準來所以花蓮縣政府是沒有責任我覺得現在都不是討論那個的時候"},{"start":11258.905,"end":11287.406,"text":"那剛剛有其他委員也講到制度的問題紅色警戒黃色警戒各應該做什麼樣的撤離或什麼樣的警報那這一個範圍到底有多大應該照制度走那我就請問各位啊我就請問剛才的委員啊災害應變中心隨時在處理各種狀況可能有委員可能沒有行政經驗沒有在災害應變中心待過"},{"start":11288.41,"end":11298.018,"text":"不知道災變中心的指揮系統匯報各地或者是所有專家的意見之後必須要做出裁判必須要做出"},{"start":11299.428,"end":11322.842,"text":"決定那決定之後各自分層分工該做什麼事情的人就去做什麼事情該找資源的人就去找資源中央該負責什麼包含國防部會支援多少人力來人就在那裡要不要指揮地方要不要指揮負責撤離的人要不要指揮這個是整個災變中心在做的事情而農業部"},{"start":11324.164,"end":11339.389,"text":"在之前就是在做相關的這個如果是要輸菌那輸菌可能大家的意見不一樣我想要聽一下次長當時對輸菌農業部還有經濟部可能對相關的意見有什麼樣不一樣的討論"},{"start":11340.957,"end":11362.934,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為其實對於這次的這個驗測壺其實真的是不要說台灣沒碰過在全世界應該算是一個非常特別的狀況所以我們在7月26號發現這個驗測壺形成之後其實一直在做就是做監測了解這個驗測壺有什麼變化那各種模型的演練或是各種模型的建置也是基於"},{"start":11363.134,"end":11389.848,"text":"我看你的工作報告裡面也是馬步停蹄每週都有工作進度應該都要因為其實晴天有晴天狀況大雨有大雨狀況地震在花蓮有地震的狀況那東北季風來又有狀況那颱風來那更別提所以所有的模擬都是因照所有的參數變動包括每天的水位增加包括整個地形地貌的監測大家講個道理一定要這個是穩定的驗射壺跟你遇到下雨天的驗射壺還有"},{"start":11391.226,"end":11419.004,"text":"可能颱風要來的艷澀湖來看一下喔9月21號颱風還很遠喔已經開始成立應變中心了9月22號已經開始發布這個黃色警戒了9月22號已經紅色警戒囉來各位看一下當時的颱風還這麼預報還這麼遠而且發生災情的是在花蓮那我們也對花蓮做出了這些相關的"},{"start":11419.488,"end":11427.233,"text":"包含到9月22號就已經發布了紅色警戒紅色警戒開始劉士芳部長可能就要請你上台了委員好剛才副總召說依照這個作業標準的規定還是黃色警戒突然到紅色警戒指揮官"},{"start":11438.72,"end":11459.597,"text":"怎麼會依據台大的這個調查報告說臨時就要變成要撤8000人所以他沒有責任我想兩個不確定的因素第一個是華家沙在花蓮山區的豪大雨這是一個另外一個就是說他那個那個壩那個對不起那個艷澀湖呢他的水位一直往上升因為他是一個集水區所以我們這兩個判斷的因子是原來這個幫農業部做這個監測的這個團隊裡面呢"},{"start":11466.002,"end":11469.665,"text":"沒有去設定到那我認為說比較重要是雖然華家莎的那個颱風發布的範圍是以南台灣為主我覺得花蓮這個地方要從嚴來做判斷所以當我們請這個台大團隊跟原來的陽明交大團隊還有花蓮縣政府一起來討論的時候我是採取共識決所以其實是在9月21當天就在討論這件事下午3點這個會議就在討論剛副總召的資料又錯了喔他說下午3點還在還在撤離600人喔"},{"start":11495.464,"end":11500.187,"text":"當時我們有邀請包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所都一起參加這樣的討論然後告訴他們事情的嚴重性所以我們才會把他拉高變成要撤離1837戶也就是要撤離接近8600但是後來他們說實居人數是68006800人這個其實跟過去劉部長在"},{"start":11524.807,"end":11542.524,"text":"高雄幾個山區的這些撤離經驗是有關係的為什麼當初我們原本預計可能要撤離是8000人後來實際撤離6000多人這個就跟我們造冊的方式有關對不對那造冊要怎麼造冊地方政府造冊都是地方政府請教一下劉副市長當時的劉副市長到山區造冊怎麼造冊"},{"start":11545.987,"end":11561.793,"text":"第一個大概要區公所還有他們的村裡幹事包括民政 社政 警政單位三個一起去把真正住在那個地方的現住人口把它弄出來而且要常常更新譬如說兩個月或三個月或者是汛期之前要再更新一次才知道說他們有沒有住在那個地方"},{"start":11562.273,"end":11586.55,"text":"要了解那個狀況那除此之外可能社會局呢會跟民政局要知道什麼是弱勢人口譬如說需要洗腎或需要孕婦那這些就是變成要強制在颱風警報要發布之前就要強制撤離所以這些幾乎都是地方政府應該所做的這個基本的工作把名單能夠確實清楚的標示出來那因為我們在中央的部分也只能把用那個這個國科會的套圖的方式套出來說1837戶"},{"start":11591.733,"end":11605.046,"text":"可是每一戶裡面實居的人口跟急在人在或者急不在人在或者急在人不在真的是要地方政府才能夠明確的告訴我們這些資料所以我們現在開始其實也不能對地方政府政府有"},{"start":11608.397,"end":11626.676,"text":"過度的期待我們必須要透過很多的演練或者是透過很多可能實際的這些演習也好那去落實這些造冊的方式報告委員我想我們這次因為比較擔心是原住民的部落"},{"start":11627.356,"end":11646.649,"text":"所以園民會呢也加入我們的通知系統因為我們很怕就是剛有說的可能他們不一定聽得懂漢語那園民呢他們也在這段時間內呢一共有十幾到二十次也是通知包括村長都有收到這樣子的證明也就是說通知的部分我們都盡量通知到但是呢我們就是沒有辦法通知到每一個人"},{"start":11647.449,"end":11676.745,"text":"我們只能通知到村長里長里幹事或者是鄉鎮市公所的人所以後來才知道光復鄉公所報告說他們的廣播系統壞掉趕快加上警消的系統去做撤離那當然時間上還是有一些延遲啊而且大家都知道這次沖刷下來的不是水它是水加土加沙所以它其實水加土加沙的時候它的沖刷力道是原來水的兩倍以上才會說留有大概有兩億方的這個土石在限地的地方"},{"start":11677.145,"end":11703.173,"text":"那這個造成很大的災難了我想每一個地方都有我們檢討跟精進的空間也請委員能夠了解是的謝謝部長你辛苦那原本不想講災防法那剛剛傅坤祺總召一直講災防法一直講第4條我提醒他第10條我更不想講的是災防法第49條各級政府機關如果有怠惰職守他必須要移送的我們今天不在這裡討論這個問題我們希望"},{"start":11705.293,"end":11728.124,"text":"未來不要再有這些事情發生謝謝好謝謝李博義委員接下來請張志倫委員那待會在張志倫委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是先請農業部杜次長請農業部次長"},{"start":11734.784,"end":11760.799,"text":"委員好 杜市長好今天我們大家討論這個有關於全國堰塞湖及馬太安溪堰塞湖相關的問題那根據新聞報導這個馬太安溪堰塞湖目前的水位已經下降可是現在依然是紅色警戒那這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心的問題看似現在好像已經解決的危機為什麼還是潛藏還是紅色警戒還是潛藏致命的這個風險"},{"start":11762.113,"end":11786.731,"text":"那是不是代表說我們現在第一個就是這些艷澀湖的壩體的結構的問題第一個是還沒有解決那如果下雨的話這個潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在那本席有讀了一下我們農業部的報告就從7月26艷澀湖成立了以後我們27號成立應變小組那也進行了很多的不管是拍照航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議"},{"start":11788.402,"end":11813.614,"text":"市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練那這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國"},{"start":11814.642,"end":11841.792,"text":"整體的顏色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個顏色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質下游有密集人口的高風險顏色湖是不是可以請您回答好 謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的顏色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙"},{"start":11842.412,"end":11870.241,"text":"所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是壩體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是河道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它泄流出去第三個是河體的加高那第四個是最重要的那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好"},{"start":11870.701,"end":11899.429,"text":"那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹涉的情況"},{"start":11900.149,"end":11920.464,"text":"那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園"},{"start":11922.034,"end":11943.986,"text":"所以全臺灣還有哪一邊在監測在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射物之外還有桃園新竹還有一個桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹 抱歉我講錯了是新竹嗎 新竹有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對 那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控"},{"start":11944.5,"end":11958.974,"text":"好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說"},{"start":11960.782,"end":11987.96,"text":"就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡也寫說在9月底其實在8月28日你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底"},{"start":11988.584,"end":12017.563,"text":"才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安溪驗射無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵"},{"start":12018.684,"end":12047.854,"text":"包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說那次長我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程"},{"start":12048.981,"end":12067.948,"text":"這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點傾書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是"},{"start":12069.399,"end":12098.449,"text":"因為當然啦我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議喔如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害來發生所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做"},{"start":12099.311,"end":12106.536,"text":"跟我們政府單位去做個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說"},{"start":12107.776,"end":12128.206,"text":"我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上要有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好 謝謝 應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們是請劉部長"},{"start":12136.277,"end":12157.351,"text":"好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是恪盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任"},{"start":12157.87,"end":12182.531,"text":"所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號"},{"start":12183.905,"end":12205.078,"text":"在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差"},{"start":12206.065,"end":12225.416,"text":"我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就"},{"start":12225.776,"end":12235.403,"text":"我相信他們那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少 一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣 報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶"},{"start":12245.45,"end":12255.657,"text":"但是呢這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數實居人數就是6,843是所以6,843人當時這個網頁上面都有"},{"start":12263.558,"end":12280.42,"text":"當時您所說的您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5348人不是不是不是 報告委員應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些這些有多少人"},{"start":12281.121,"end":12295.051,"text":"是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上"},{"start":12296.972,"end":12312.581,"text":"建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取隨時避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑"},{"start":12315.222,"end":12335.296,"text":"這個部分大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次所罹難的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓一樓的空間而且大部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人"},{"start":12335.896,"end":12360.579,"text":"那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整"},{"start":12361.311,"end":12377.817,"text":"所以部長我跟你請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期"},{"start":12379.423,"end":12403.784,"text":"報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是他們是肯認這個是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在"},{"start":12404.584,"end":12424.03,"text":"歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者讓第一線在協助疏散撤離的民政或者社政的人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內呢搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好好謝謝曾政務委員我們先休息"},{"start":12477.022,"end":12481.081,"text":"大家可以坐下"},{"start":12508.593,"end":12510.947,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":12549.679,"end":12569.064,"text":"這張圖片是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,是在2014年,"},{"start":12612.978,"end":12614.813,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":13030.282,"end":13034.305,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會我們接下來請吳奇敏委員質詢好在位與會同仁請我們內政部部長我們請內政部委員部長"},{"start":13053.448,"end":13069.361,"text":"委員你好部長針對花蓮這事件我看早上很多委員大家都非常的關心那其實這個事件我看我們的國軍以及我們各社團"},{"start":13071.823,"end":13085.991,"text":"民眾大家都非常的踴躍都是來全力的搶救這個災情所以你看我們未來因為事情已經發生未來我們要怎麼來解決這個問題因為這是一個非常嚴重的天災包括在我們一些警報也好還是民力的結合包括警政的結合"},{"start":13098.413,"end":13122.911,"text":"因為有很多 你有發現就是說我們山窟以及偏遠的地方大家都是老弱婦孺都是比較多所以中間這一層人大部分都在外面工作所以可以說很多災難發生你很多地方上你又沒有辦法及時去掌控這一些人員"},{"start":13124.814,"end":13140.223,"text":"他們有沒有安全的撤離這都是非常重要 尤其我們台灣整個山區的居民都非常的多啊所以說這是我們未來要去檢討要怎麼說 這次我們的M社會事件對他們要怎麼建制他們的災禍重建因為對他們的家園損傷都非常嚴重所以說你未來 你說包含我們"},{"start":13154.691,"end":13173.207,"text":"國土署規劃我們整個國土署那邊的土地還有多少剩餘未來我們的中期的安置計畫包括我們很多不管說社宅也好要安置怎樣我們這些"},{"start":13174.817,"end":13177.538,"text":"受災 受災婦 要讓他們可以在那邊更加安身立命 這是最重要所以 現在 你說討論責任是歸屬地方 以及中央現在最重要 就是要如何來做搶救的工作尤其 我看到很多 包括在我的縣區"},{"start":13198.069,"end":13204.372,"text":"我的選區一些志工都非常的踴躍光是我的選區到花蓮搶救差不多超過100台的遊覽車他們都是當天來回真的台灣人大家都非常有愛心所以說我們未來要怎麼結合這個山區以及偏遠的地方以及"},{"start":13224.448,"end":13233.472,"text":"台灣要去整個盤查還有多少存在這個湖面未來的膨體的問題這才是應急的改革的問題在這裡請保重 你看未來要怎樣去規劃"},{"start":13238.454,"end":13242.398,"text":"感謝郭委員的關心經濟農業部的資料現時在台灣這裡有兩個驗射壺一個是現在馬太安溪一個是在新迪目前在馬太安溪這裡因為水和土壤大量都流了"},{"start":13256.79,"end":13261.092,"text":"所以現在是監測的部分大概是剩下1.7%所以目前為止它的坡度比較緩但是我們永遠要預測下一次會有什麼時候會發生所以在下一次的汛期之前可能我們要做一些很多這個備變的方式"},{"start":13274.716,"end":13296.753,"text":"就我所了解經濟部的水利署他們已經針對這個這個合體的部分有2860公尺有三道不同的程序一個是夯實的土地然後再有太空包還有頂塊如果有沖刷下來的話可以擋住讓他下面的下游的這些居住的這個家屋那可以有安全上面的部分"},{"start":13297.273,"end":13312.428,"text":"然後持續監測的部分的話那個農業部呢也跟日本的國土交通省他們有水位監視器來做處理但是比較不確定的因素就是大規模的崩塌的這個邊坡的不穩定以及什麼時候還會有另外一個颱風夾帶的大量的雨水下來"},{"start":13315.771,"end":13336.878,"text":"這個都是在農業部有高度的監測當中同時我們也會請他們的跟包括陽明交大、成大、中興或者是台大這些教授保持聯繫怕說下一次有沒有這樣子的狀況這是目前的一個監測的狀況再來收容安置的部分確實沒有錯因為有些家屋還沒有完全清淤乾淨"},{"start":13338.698,"end":13351.763,"text":"所以現在我們所了解這個縣市政府裡面的收容安置的人數大概還有兩百三十幾位就是住在這個收容安置所或是旅宿這是行政院或花蓮縣政府所提供的一個暫時的地方那現在有幾個就是剛剛那個委員所提到的"},{"start":13357.17,"end":13373.715,"text":"現在這麼多土砂要遭遇了目前為止這個行政院在台塘那附近大概有備變了兩塊到三塊這個土石堆置的地方但是仍然不夠那現在大面積需要處理的大概是落在農業部他們農田上面"},{"start":13374.395,"end":13381.04,"text":"覆蓋的這個土石量大概有600萬方左右非常的多那所以呢現在農業部他們正在想辦法看怎麼樣幫農民解決未來如果農田要做其他的怎麼樣的復育工作的話那我們就尊重農業部來幫忙處理"},{"start":13390.786,"end":13396.794,"text":"那再來現在仍然有一部分是環境部在主導在那個市區裡面比較多大概就是所謂的親溝側溝親溝有些是跟他們的這個劃分池啊或者是其他的下水道是連在一起的"},{"start":13406.946,"end":13427.623,"text":"那目前我所知道他們這個清溝的這個速度啦他們預計大概30公里現在清溝的速度大概是20公里所以那個紀連城政務委員下令對不起希望在10月18號的時候清溝可以完成這個第一部分的任務讓很多人可以回去原來的家園做比較更正常的生活"},{"start":13428.163,"end":13435.945,"text":"那在昨天呢行政院的一站式的服務呢針對這個1837戶已經有1518戶完成申請登記那每一個修繕家園的這個進度大概可以獲得包括震災基金會總共有35萬元的部分讓他們回去可以清掃自己的家屋讓自己的家屋呢可以好好的再回復正常的生活"},{"start":13452.25,"end":13468.239,"text":"那如果對於非常嚴重也就是我們大家所知道的所謂的佛祖階那一代總共有89戶那89戶呢我上次在立法院院會啊跟院長在回應這個委員的質詢的時候有說要他們挨家挨戶去查詢"},{"start":13469.179,"end":13477.584,"text":"他們有沒有必須要異地重建或者是原地重建那我們現在有一些資料已經出來如果他需要原地重建或異地重建的話我們都會來協調跟幫忙那如果需要異地重建目前在這個國土署"},{"start":13485.089,"end":13498.174,"text":"所找到的地點大概是在台塘靠近他們大晉國小那一帶大概是五空井左右但是異地重建不一定是所謂的遷村因為遷村是永遠的你可能遷村的時候就要放棄原來的你已經被這個沖毀的這個部分"},{"start":13502.435,"end":13522.05,"text":"那如果說他是用中繼屋的方式來要求的話目前我手頭上的資料有這個中介屋中繼屋需求的人數大概是40戶左右但是還要再進一步溝通因為這個都是每一天在與時漸進在處理當中這是以上我們所知道先跟委員報告一下目前的一個進度"},{"start":13522.844,"end":13527.586,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝 我覺得保證我們這次這個災害我們中央也全部都動起來所以我也說在明天 我也看到保證市場都去關心所以我們說剛才這個情形 你說堆積場 魚餘太過多了"},{"start":13541.46,"end":13545.241,"text":"所以說因爲太過多了,你對自廠一定要把他經過就好因爲我看很多,你用人工在那裡耕耕,那個金錢就沒那麼多那怎麼說呢?我們現在都要靠在種機械嘛在種機械的氣質入去,才有辦法改革經濟的問題,速度才會快你說一般它的住宅裡面,那當然那個種機械都沒辦法進去都要靠人工嘛"},{"start":13567.329,"end":13569.191,"text":"所以說你要結合現在全國在志工都非常踴躍去幫忙要怎麼來結合每一次讓他們建立他們未來他們的經濟處"},{"start":13580.282,"end":13583.404,"text":"因為這都是非常費時的問題所以我們為大家說要去討論這個問題這可以徹底改觀你說它的中繼屋中繼屋這個速度一定要快你如果說政府部門為大家說要再討論變略的預算也可以討論給民間不管慈濟啊 紅十字會啊"},{"start":13601.355,"end":13607.077,"text":"他們的速度也都是很快我們現在也不分了就是要替我們的災民要怎麼來解決還有一點你說這些種機械我看他們入境我本身這裡的資料有2500多台其實我們每一邊的災害都是在種機械他們來在協助所以說未來他們種機械的問題也希望說保證可以替他們解決他們的問題就是這個"},{"start":13629.408,"end":13635.97,"text":"停在種機械的問題都長久以來都沒辦法去解決這也是他們透露的心聲所以說這點也拜託補充來想辦法 到該關好 感謝委員 我跟委員報告我們這裡有資料的啦我剛才跟縣主席會計呢是出動3071啦山貓的話是1475啦我要跟委員報告就是說這裡的志工朋友非常感恩啦"},{"start":13654.454,"end":13660.779,"text":"因為他們可以遊樂的地方都在處理但是如果是累積這麼多土石很多古老洞的部分大家都是國軍或是慈濟因為慈濟他們動員五千多人那國軍的話動員更多他們都把我們的去暫時堆置的地方所以其實是分工啦只不過國軍的分工他們都在拔煤 在做工因為歷史來說我們這裡的產殖超人把那些東西"},{"start":13677.153,"end":13694.147,"text":"把他推到那個道路上面但是第二天道路又乾淨了為什麼 因為半夜的時候國軍已經出動很多人力跟機具把他先運走所以一方面都到底在處理這方面就是說公家跟樹林的產殖超人都有互相的分工"},{"start":13695.488,"end":13698.831,"text":"所以每次看到我們都感謝產殖超人他們能夠到現場去我最了解的就是包括我們的NCDR 還是包括台鐵光復車站家他們每天都會統計人次 人次啦 因為沒辦法人嘛大概到現主席位置大概是50萬人次啦"},{"start":13713.723,"end":13740.215,"text":"50萬人次真的是非常的多而且我也看到一個非常正面的部分就是說這些產值超人如果有碰到受災戶他們還會跟受災戶聊天這也是一種療癒的過程我想這個是對台灣來講都是一個非常正向的力量那國外媒體也有報導那另外就是說如果這個產值超人慢慢減少救災部分的話現在我們還有一個部分就是替代役"},{"start":13740.815,"end":13757.185,"text":"備役替代役我們請花蓮縣政府發動全台灣第一次的備役替代役的動員大概會有240人次那這個部分呢在下一次要處理緊急疏散撤離的兵棋演練或者是說到人家家屋裡面去再協助比較有勞譬如說家裡如果有一些人行動不方便還要到廟室的部分我想備役替代役同樣都是花蓮人"},{"start":13765.65,"end":13790.627,"text":"應該會協助的機會比較大那就不會說讓現在也是非常忙的包括縣政府或是鄉鎮公所仍然非常忙碌在處理一些其他的事所以我們到目前為止行政院的一站式的服務呢包括新聞節目沒在啦健保卡也沒在我們就馬上幫他做處理那這一方面呢大概就是慢慢慢慢可以讓他恢復正常的生活所以這是我們目前所做的這個部分當然我們到目前為止"},{"start":13792.248,"end":13802.118,"text":"中央的災害應變中心跟花蓮縣政府還是一級警戒為什麼 因為這裡面的志工人流太多了冰凶時這個地方花蓮車頭這裡 光復車頭這裡一天只有八百人"},{"start":13807.583,"end":13828.799,"text":"現在每天早上一萬人兩萬人三萬人如果有下大雨或是有地震因為前上個禮拜也有三次到四次以上的地震警報那這個呢也必須要納入疏散撤離的範圍那所以這就是我們目前為止仍然維持一級警戒裡面四個重要因素裡面的第四個非常重要的好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":13830.478,"end":13844.854,"text":"我說這次這個災害 我們的中央部會大家都是通力合作 合作在我們所在的災民這點分析非常輕盈所以也感謝我們所有的志工和國賓在這裡再次感謝 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13850.227,"end":13878.283,"text":"好 謝謝吳啟明委員那我們中午不休息繼續開會那也跟委員會報告在我們林德福委員詢答完之後我們會處理臨時提案那我們現在請林德福委員謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請內政部這個劉部長請劉部長還有這個警政署不是那個消防署消署長"},{"start":13879.79,"end":13886.362,"text":"委員好 農業部啊這個杜次長請以上三位那個部長你可以在中間"},{"start":13895.961,"end":13914.047,"text":"上主席台那個我請問因為根據10月9號行政院災害防救辦公室災害復原的情形報告花蓮光戶家園家戶這個家屋內清一差不多百分之百"},{"start":13915.205,"end":13923.673,"text":"主要是道路清淤98%學校已經陸陸續續都復課然後根據過往的氣象資料2022、2023以及2024年花蓮10月累計降雨分別為878毫米296.5毫米以及572.5毫米是多雨的季節那"},{"start":13943.383,"end":13961.921,"text":"馬太安西亞煙澀湖潰壩危機仍然沒有解除還未解除那請問在場你們三位誰可以回答如果再遇到大雨花蓮寬戶鄉累積的雨量這個達到多少毫米就會這個啟動這個撤離的機制"},{"start":13970.535,"end":13985.295,"text":"是 謝謝報告委員 依現在的狀況我們調整了如果在24小時之內連續雨量達到200毫米的是會啟動紅色警戒那是否有預留一些足夠撤離作業的時間以利民眾能夠疏散"},{"start":13985.856,"end":14011.986,"text":"我想這也就是為什麼我們現在最優先要在處理的因為紅色警戒有四個要件第一個是壩體的部分有沒有穩定第二個是在河道的其餘部分有沒有做深溝第三個是河體有沒有加高這三項都有在做那最重要的最重要就是現在的撤離計劃因為現在在花蓮當地其實除了當地的居民之外有很多志工有很多中央各部會在進駐在那邊協助的人員"},{"start":14013.186,"end":14038.974,"text":"所以撤離計畫是我們現階段要儘速來完成的其實這一次這個整個潰壩這個潰堤這麼嚴重其實主要就是當初你們當然說有一些這個事前有去做一些測試上面了解那實際上引流工作都沒有做而且這個多久前"},{"start":14040.233,"end":14057,"text":"我們立法院很多委員就擔心這個事務而且那時候你們就是在搞大惡霸所以說根本就沒有心在這個地方你要是當初有引流我相信不會發生這麼嚴重因為你有引流"},{"start":14058.22,"end":14075.269,"text":"整個水下陷沒有達到那個程度它就不會造成整個淹涉湖的一個潰壩這是很嚴重的問題委員他也提到了其實這次並不是因為第一個監測的結果當然有很多的預估的模型"},{"start":14075.489,"end":14097.987,"text":"你們那個部長說沒有問題啊在當下當下的狀況那這次其實是因為畫家沙颱風帶來大量的雨量然後造成特別是堰塞湖區依照中央氣象署的資料會是會有大量的雨水所以這次下來就不是一般預估的雨量而是有大量的對啊那你平常本來這個就是你要是有引流出去就不會這麼嚴重嗎"},{"start":14099.048,"end":14116.946,"text":"引流還是有在做堤防有在做但是這次因為颱風大量雨水帶下來的狀況確實是天上帶下來的因為齁災後當然政府資源有限民間民力無窮許多民間力量的匯聚支持災民渡過難關對於投入花蓮"},{"start":14117.907,"end":14138.583,"text":"救災的官兵包括醫護、志工我想本席也是真的非常的感謝跟敬佩然而中央災害應變中心對於花蓮整個災區的管理志工的安排調度保險在災難發生後沒有立刻來啟動導致謠言四起"},{"start":14142.092,"end":14153.205,"text":"那破壞整個救災團隊讓人感到遺憾希望內政部未來要一併檢討讓這些救災志工有安全的保障 劉部長你的看法"},{"start":14155.507,"end":14178.528,"text":"報告委員其實我們這兩天已經有跟金管會還有財政部已經針對這個志工啊做這個QR code少QR code的時候就有這個平安險的一個保障已經把它列進去這兩天都列進去了其實更令人不捨的是熱心的救災民眾失去了生命挖土機超人寧紅生救災感染"},{"start":14179.669,"end":14206.59,"text":"他應該是敗血症來身亡那本席是希望內政部積極來研究啟動入中獵池的這個程序以告慰家屬報告委員因為林鴻升先生我們當然非常不捨但是中獵池有中獵池現在的一個入室的部分那我們請衛福部啊那能不能列入表揚那因為志工服務法是衛福部是不是請次長跟您回應一下"},{"start":14209.643,"end":14228.623,"text":"有關這個部分我們會再跟行政院這邊來申請看看我認為這個應該全國的人民都不會反對這麼熱心的一個志工發生這種狀況政府沒有拿出同理心你說叫這些來做志工的人請何以堪"},{"start":14230.385,"end":14242.058,"text":"我認為該做則做你不要說這個一定要怎麼樣規定沒有那個百分之百的規定啦對不對我們這是民意啊你去問10個有9個9都贊成"},{"start":14244.175,"end":14272.934,"text":"好不好要好好做那個花蓮馬太安溪煙澀湖潰壩造成嚴重的災情內政部前部長李鴻元指出台灣當前面臨的都是複合式的災害那已經非單一部會能夠處理呼籲政府要修改災害防救法來設置專責的單位來成立這個防災總署因為這次我看到"},{"start":14274.455,"end":14302.841,"text":"等於是好幾個單位而且沒有統籌講實在話啦你像那個公兵他們有那麼多的機具那麼多的人員沒有發揮到充分來運用他們災害發生的時候能夠做的應該全力都做那是我要成立這個防災總署統一救災的權責此一概念過去在立法院其實也"},{"start":14303.769,"end":14318.796,"text":"也有討論過啦那花蓮光復鄉災情預警應變及這個救災未來的檢討究責本席請問劉部長你以消防署的看法是不是支持這個防災總署"},{"start":14323.553,"end":14337.869,"text":"來取代整個中央這個災害應變中心我認為要審慎評估報告委員我剛在回覆其他委員是有提到第一個我們現在消防的這個災害防救體系它是一個因災因而起的那這樣子的"},{"start":14338.65,"end":14347.813,"text":"前面的有些預警必須要很多專業來幫忙比如說氣象署他在發布地震或是發布颱風的部分那沒辦法由災防總署來幫忙還有譬如說堰塞湖的監測農業部在幫忙或者是說其他的大型災害或者是生物園的災害必須要衛福部來處理那如果你成立災防總署的部分的話呢他是在應變的時候能不能快速整合所有這方面的資訊然後做出判斷"},{"start":14366.88,"end":14387.336,"text":"然後減少生命財產的損失那這一部分呢其實在歷次的災害應變從以前的這個921開始他就一直在演變當中那我們也一直在精進那這一部分呢包括中央跟地方都有精進討論的空間我想我們都不排除任何可能因為你不要像這一次一樣啦多頭馬車其實外界都有這樣的看法"},{"start":14392.248,"end":14415.945,"text":"對不對那些志工到底要去給哪一個單位來報到他們要做哪裡對不對你等於是沒有一個統籌嘛那你災害發生的時候就是第一時間最重要因為像台灣地小人籌容易受到一些極端氣候的影響那這個山坡地的災害類型"},{"start":14418.306,"end":14432.314,"text":"這個將轉變為多元而且災害的規模將遠超過過去歷史的事件面對未來未知的災害可能本席是希望農業部要結合AI大數據的計算以大數據的分析"},{"start":14433.434,"end":14448.052,"text":"來建立整個災害潛勢圖以疏散避難場所規劃之研究未來會如何與內政部國土署經濟部地礦中心合作以避免類似花蓮關乎這種慘劇再次發生那個次長你有什麼看法"},{"start":14453.041,"end":14473.174,"text":"是謝謝委員指教應該就是要這樣把所有的資源統合起來一起來就防災救災的事情剛剛其實部長講的我意思就是說你要是這個防災總署就是要統籌嘛你災難發生的時候你沒有統籌各司其職每一個單位想法看法都不一樣然後變成多頭馬車所以說變成這種狀況全國人民都看在眼裡啊對不對"},{"start":14480.086,"end":14493.701,"text":"那其實這個應該本來政府我是希望說那個部長你提出這些看法意見你給立法院一份資料每個委員都都一份資料認為未來應該要怎麼做 游部長"},{"start":14495.053,"end":14520.698,"text":"報告委員我想我不是天才但是我會把各方的意見把它收整起來提供給我們的立委來參考包括如果有修法精進的方案的話我們也必須要研議因為它確實牽涉到不只是各部會恐怕公司力協商因為很多人都提到這次的志工的加入以前志工的部分大致上都沒有像這次這麼多人的狀況之下就是災害太嚴重"},{"start":14524.119,"end":14545.046,"text":"然後再來就是中央跟地方上面的分工是不是需要再明確那我覺得比較重要就是說我們還是要在各種不同的場合裡面繼續提供給大家危機意識是非常重要你如果沒有準備的話他的危機沒有危機意識的話那當然造成了人命傷亡損失就是比較不是我們能夠預估的範圍之內我希望好好的檢討啦"},{"start":14547.447,"end":14566.359,"text":"就針對未來不要讓災害像這一次變成多頭馬車那其實這些志工真的他們很有愛心那站在政府的角度你應該就是好好的怎麼來檢討以後該怎麼做以最好的方式來做是人民期待的啦謝謝好謝謝林德福委員那我們現在來處理臨時提案總共有四案請宣讀"},{"start":14582.132,"end":14604.399,"text":"臨時提案一本二零二五年九月二十三日花蓮縣馬太安溪發生煙色湖溢流洪水衝破光復鄉市區體防之情勢造成花蓮縣光復鄉萬榮鄉鳳林鄉重大災情無論第一時間之救災搶災抑或災後之重建出政府及外界協助災民亦有自救自救之需求為使受災民眾及其親屬能於災害發生後進行家園重建復原"},{"start":14605.34,"end":14624.165,"text":"請行政院嚴議訂定災後復原假期相關配套措施提案人委員蘇巧慧等六人臨時提案二本二零二五年九月二十三日花蓮縣馬太安西發深淹澀湖一流洪水衝破光復鄉市區提防之情勢造成人民傷亡因災害及時告警機制不足"},{"start":14624.725,"end":14641.6,"text":"致使部分民眾未能於洪水來襲時及時避難緊急疏散警報之內容樣式方法及其發布時機顯有在精進之空間請行政院研議精進緊急疏散警報相關機制必利緊急疏散作業之進行提案人委員蘇巧慧等六人"},{"start":14642.369,"end":14662.271,"text":"平時提案三 本二零二五年九月花蓮馬灘西堰澀湖溢流災害大量泥流灌進下游光復鄉市區造成當地民眾財產家園及生活重大損失為協助重建家園全國熱心民眾自主遠赴光復鄉協助清淤救災遺憾的是救災志工林宏森先生"},{"start":14662.972,"end":14681.796,"text":"不幸因傷口感染導致敗血症離世感佩其救災心切奮不顧身異形可風典型足事原件請內政部會同衛生福利部依相關法令陳請總統包揚並研議入室中列詞以供國人驚世提案人委員蘇巧慧等六人臨時提案四"},{"start":14682.372,"end":14703.147,"text":"鉴于重大灾害或突发事件发生时现行灾害警讯传播系统存在传播速度分级延宕非单一标准语文限制及触及范围不足等结构性缺陷严重影响新住民外籍人士观光客等多元族群的生命安全亦不符现代化国家治理对紧急风险沟通之效率要求"},{"start":14703.707,"end":14717.076,"text":"原建請行政院邀請邀集相關部會於一個月內研議一將細胞廣播提升為所有重大災害緊急事故強制性無差別警訊通報手段二建立中央層級之標準化多餘"},{"start":14719.648,"end":14739.662,"text":"風險溝通模板至少涵蓋我國新住民主要來源國語言及通用語言如英語日語等並強制要求訊息內容納入地理位置風險性質及明確應變指令並將研議成果與具體實施進度向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告提案人委員徐欣盈等四人宣讀完畢好我們現在第一案到第三案大家有沒有意見"},{"start":14746.26,"end":14752.343,"text":"那麼一件的話我們第一案第四案照案通過那接下來我們繼續開會我們請徐欣穎委員發言謝謝主席我們內政部長請先坐著休息本席請這個農業部農業部次長還有我們經濟部水利署副署長請農業部經濟部水利署"},{"start":14777.281,"end":14803.772,"text":"委員好我們這一次艷澀湖的這個災害我想這是國人覺得非常痛心的那我想這個醫療上預防勝於治療我相信所有的災害也是我想部長跟署長應該也都認同那這個很多人在說所以我要特別的就農業部跟經濟部"},{"start":14805.717,"end":14824.917,"text":"来请教过往艳色湖的处置案例过往艳色湖的处置案例通常艳色湖形成一个多月就处置完毕了花莲的艳色湖是7月形成发生灾害的时候已经是9月23号溃堤"},{"start":14827.881,"end":14844.026,"text":"没有看到任何的疏俊工程或者是这中间到底是判断错误还是怎么样的一个我想这个部分我们非常需要知道是政府的螺丝松了该做没有做所以一直延宕延宕到"},{"start":14845.846,"end":14860.525,"text":"9月刚好来一个台风结果产生这个问题还是怎么样首先我想先请农业部次长非常谢谢委员关心因为其实在艳色湖9月26号我们确认艳色湖形成之后7月吧"},{"start":14861.486,"end":14876.825,"text":"7月26確認行程之後其實相關的監測相關的應處其實都緊鑼密鼓在說因為就是因為覺得這件事要嚴正以待兩個狀況第一個是因為那個壺體確實很大所以其實這當中也有人在講說有沒有辦法"},{"start":14877.586,"end":14895.644,"text":"就把那个验尸物把它这个看能不能把它消灭掉那其实也请了包括国防部也包括很多水利工程单位的人帮我们想想看有没有办法把那个霸体看能不能把它解体或让水流掉那这样至少对下游来讲就是不会有那么大的风险"},{"start":14896.644,"end":14921.033,"text":"这个是什么时候什么时候的我们从7月26号形成之后就开始密集找专家那在8月我有看到你们报告里面的时间序列那有考虑过要么用这个要不要国防部来爆破那其实也不可行因为旁边对这个考量然后决定不要用这个方法是在什么时候这是什么时间点已经到8月了嘛不好意思委员我来说明一下"},{"start":14922.393,"end":14946.241,"text":"因為我看到你們就是整個七月二十六行程到十幾號就已經開始在評估我說明一下因為我時間有限你講到什麼我剛剛次長說的還有您說的到八月十幾號因為我看到你們寫的時間序列七月二十六到八月三號你們就整個堰塞湖的量體分析災害風險"},{"start":14947.481,"end":14964.505,"text":"评估初步的评估还有建立预警机制可是我看到8月11号的时候特别提出了一个紧急调查报告为什么是有一个紧急调查报告那一天这个调查报告到底他紧急什么他告诉了什么"},{"start":14964.81,"end":14986.077,"text":"然後剛剛您又講國防部這邊這個可能要爆破可能評估也是不好這也是8月10幾號那時候到底我們現在想了解就是說我們政府的評估或者是我們該做的到底有沒有實際的做8月11號那時候就是一個比較完整的全貌的評估"},{"start":14986.806,"end":15009.689,"text":"那就是輪廓那那個的結論是什麼那個的結論對堰塞湖它的應該如何處置它就是針對那整個量體還有針對未來可能會形成的水量還有那個壩體的土方它有一個更清楚的方法結論是什麼因為我看過去我們從1999年開始全台灣各地堰塞湖的形成"},{"start":15010.39,"end":15039.631,"text":"我们发现他都在10天到两周之内一定会有一个评估而且他这个会做出处置就是后续我们该怎么做是要引流还是要建立什么还是在下游我们的这个提防各方面那我们这一次花莲的艳色湖既然7月26号形成那在8到了8月10号差不多你们也两周了你们那一"},{"start":15040.091,"end":15053.871,"text":"那时候的决议到底如何处置这个艳色那个处置方式其实是一直都有持续在评估但是那边最大的问题你一直评估评估你总要有一个时间点你要做出一个"},{"start":15055.272,"end":15076.447,"text":"决定说你要怎么处置包括刚刚次长说的我要不要用爆破还是什么就是不行那个地方没有办法用爆破那你们那一次的决议那这个验射壶怎么样持续观察而已吗没有危险性吗这个评估这个我们一次说没有其他的工程方式我们还会有第二次看还可不可以找其他专家来评估有没有其他的工程方式"},{"start":15076.767,"end":15094.9,"text":"所以一開始是爆破後來又有人提出說引流那或是說有人說這個可不可以有這個機具上去把那個堤方挖一個缺口其實這些不同的方式它不是在一次會議裡面那你剛說的第二個爆破沒做第二個引流不是沒做是沒辦法做因為它會引發更大的崩塌讓這個沒辦法做那你剛說的引流可以做嗎"},{"start":15100.273,"end":15129.857,"text":"引流可以做但是引流也许可以做但是他必须要装4条1米的这个不锈钢管而且每一条要在2.5公里以上要装4条那那个验射物他是在一个深山的山谷他没有办法在那么短的时间内去安装这个事情而且现场持续在崩塌没有工作人员能够保障他们的生命安全在那样的环境下面所以现场持续崩塌那这一条路也不能走那你们接着没有路啊"},{"start":15131.158,"end":15154.191,"text":"我是说这个方案不能进行那你们没有第三个方案吗有啊第三个方案是什么那是不是可以上去把它的所谓的坝去把它稍微挖一个缺口出来或者挖低一点但是这个方式同样也是因为你要开一条路上去至少要三个月以上而且那个时间是在迅起也没办法做这个事情"},{"start":15155.086,"end":15174.578,"text":"所以那个地方最主要所以你提你讲了三个想出来都是不可行的那最后到底OK 平估出来的那最后呢最后就是所以就是在中下游要加强输菌中下游加强输菌你们什么时候开始做你们什么时候有开始做"},{"start":15175.198,"end":15202.633,"text":"應該是八月中那時候就邀集了包含水利署包含了花蓮縣政府還有我們自己那時候就已經開始去做了那時候也希望說至少希望能夠在未來即使在沒有颱風的情況下它在自然溢流之前可以讓中下游河道增加水的能量哪一天決定要疏浚而且疏浚的期程是那一天的決議疏浚的期程是怎麼樣應該是八月十六號的會議"},{"start":15203.669,"end":15216.316,"text":"好8月16號決定要輸菌然後預計多久要輸菌完成在9月底前要完成60萬噸的輸菌有三個9月底前對然後也包含河岸"},{"start":15216.943,"end":15245.902,"text":"有一些之前堤防的缺口什麼那些要把它補強堤防缺口是水利署嗎還是是你們應該是水利署因為發生了之後當地的民眾講說破堤點只差100公尺那舊堤防跟新堤防它的一個缺口一直沒有補對這塊可能要請副署長我再重申那個不是叫缺口那個是開口堤"},{"start":15248.024,"end":15275.279,"text":"這個這個堤防這個設計方式是全世界都有案例日本就叫霞堤也就是它的保護標準都到設計保護標準那這一次自災不是只有那邊有溢出去而且是整個在這個它應該是上面整個潰堤吧對 大流量下降就像我們的設計標準才2000出頭的一個洪峰流量它下來是88004倍的洪峰流量一個輕量級要跟重量級去打"},{"start":15276.284,"end":15300.2,"text":"所以沿路有2800公尺的堤防都破了所以峽堤當然這個部分開口堤是溢出去沒錯但是它是整個整個防線的潰瓣並不是那個OK好那我了解那我還是請次長還有剛剛這一位是不是我們林業林業自然署的是嗎是林署長那所以呢所以這個艷澀湖我們就眼睜睜看著它"},{"start":15302.198,"end":15323.809,"text":"不是眼睜睜我們就是剛剛講所有的你們所有的會議決策會議記錄是不是在會後可以提供給沒有問題本辦公室那這樣看來等於提早大概一個多月不到兩個月驗社服行程到發生災害我們沒有辦法有效的"},{"start":15324.749,"end":15350.588,"text":"所以就是著重在中下游的減災方案如同我剛跟您報告的那另外還有一個就是說必要的時候必須要疏散那如果本席問一個假設性問題因為你們說在9月底以前要整個完成下游的整個的數據就是60萬噸的清水那如果這次風災它是10月才來是不是不會造成這個我想請教"},{"start":15351.336,"end":15374.757,"text":"災害可能會減輕一點但是因為這次的災害如同剛剛水利署的副署長也說明了那個堤防它沒有辦法承受這麼大量所以確實是所以最重要還是上面整個潰堤下來才造成這麼大的災害對 那個當然是源頭那我們以現代科技整個工程各方面真的都沒辦法嗎"},{"start":15376.437,"end":15392.065,"text":"在很短的時間內只有不到兩個月的時間內剛剛所講的工程手段是沒有辦法沒有沒有 我們那時候並不知道9月20幾號會有風災不是我的意思說你們那時候在面對這個艷澀湖的時候我們到底有沒有辦法"},{"start":15393.172,"end":15420.266,"text":"能够有正确的处置以及是不是真正及时的处置这是我们所有的疑虑在两个月内确实没有办法用工程的手段没有两个月内而是形成之后你不知道九月底会有风灾我们那时候预估十月会一流那时候已经有估计十月会一流对有估计在十月中前后这个我们都有公开资讯我们设了一个网站每天都对外公开"},{"start":15420.865,"end":15443.53,"text":"因為我有看你們後來整個有監測它的整個水位各方面8月中就開始把這些資訊完全上網公開任何人都可以查得到OK 謝謝本席不好意思最後再借用我請部長內政部長我們很快的要詢問一下就是這整個如果真的災害來的時候細胞廣播觸發門檻與時點"},{"start":15449.092,"end":15469.559,"text":"這個細胞廣播系統是不是有納入這一次整個所謂的這個驗射壺警戒監測及測離演練方案六的強制條件還有包含細胞檢訊是由農業部來負責我們當然把它列進去所以不是內政部因為他們有一定的條件降雨量或者是說那不好意思農業部那請農業部"},{"start":15477.159,"end":15505.076,"text":"就是我刚刚问的这整个细胞广播系统是不是有纳入你们的这个整个那个方案的强制条件有因为其实我们不只纳入而且我们还做了演练确保在那有多语吗包含原住民原住民语整个防灾教材是文字细胞广播是用文字对那有关那广播的部分防灾"},{"start":15505.915,"end":15526.989,"text":"整個防災教材什麼時候可以全覆蓋還有能夠年年更新細胞廣播的部分其實相對含概率是精確的但是在當地的廣播的部分其實特別是在原鄉的一些村鎮其實村長里長他們都會使用當地的語言去做宣導"},{"start":15528.07,"end":15550.195,"text":"做說明最後就是剛剛我們說的這個堰塞湖警戒監測及撤離和演練方案他從101年修訂後就沒有再更新但是我們現在一直這種極端氣候我們發現我們也掌控不了天象各方面所以感覺是脫節了所以這一個部分是不是"},{"start":15551.155,"end":15576.017,"text":"什麼時候行政院可以提出這是農業部還是內政部能夠提出新的方案這個部分我們會再來做檢討因為特別包括這次在花蓮地區有很多包括各機關還有花蓮縣府還有很多志工在裡面的這個狀況其實我想將來在整個不管是書篆演練的這些應該都要納進來包含在101年的時候可能"},{"start":15576.517,"end":15585.745,"text":"也沒有所謂的AI還有無人機 衛星等等新興的技術它的嘗試的條件和資料可能要共享所以這一塊我們希望來加強有備無患好 謝謝"},{"start":15604.309,"end":15621.446,"text":"好我們接下來請黃建斌召委質詢謝謝主席主席我們有請內政部的部長請部長委員好"},{"start":15623.191,"end":15638.303,"text":"部長這次花蓮馬灘溪驗射物的潰壩事件造成19人的死亡我想這對全體國人都是一個非常沉重的傷痛在這邊我們也感謝所有第一線救災的人員跟我們的志工"},{"start":15639.003,"end":15658.556,"text":"目前我們這個救災跟重建的進度都還在持續的進行當中但是我們想事發至今已經將近了20天許多國人心中還是充滿了許多的疑問就是說究竟到底是為什麼會造成今天這麼嚴重的災害到底在各項的緩解當中"},{"start":15659.797,"end":15680.767,"text":"我們出了什麼樣的問題那因此本席今天會安排今天的議程就是希望各部會能夠一起在我們立法院清楚的跟我們國人來報告我想只有釐清問題才能夠找到改善的方法我想說我們就是希望作為未來我們政府防災的一些寶貴的經驗我們能夠強化我們全災害應變的能力"},{"start":15681.26,"end":15699.289,"text":"我想這個才是符合賴總統所說的這個韌性社會那我想針對這一次堰塞湖潰壩事件本席認為我們必須從源頭堰塞湖的監測處理開始來討論再來就是我們災害的預警這個通報然後疏散的機制最後是我們災禍復原重建"},{"start":15701.81,"end":15715.854,"text":"這就是為什麼本期這次將這次的主題專報的主題分為這幾項我們就是不希望我們只顧著去究責某一個特定的環節甚至是某一個單位某一個機關然後最後變成一場卸責大會面對災害防災絕對勝於救災"},{"start":15720.563,"end":15736.572,"text":"那我想能夠提早的發現潛在的災害的風險來做好妥善這個防災的規劃盡力把災害降到最低我相信這筆輸了我們救災的補充在這方面的借金又比較重要了我想接下來我想要請農業部市長市長"},{"start":15744.15,"end":15768.8,"text":"市長根據我們農業部的報告農業部針對這次驗射虎的事件有列出的時間軸就從7月底開始確認有驗射虎的存在然後接下來就是進行多次的會議還有災害風險評估但是從這一次的經驗我們明顯的發現到計劃絕對趕不上變化尤其是在現在的極端氣候之下我們東部地區又常發生這個地震頻繁"},{"start":15769.793,"end":15797.042,"text":"一次大一次地震或是一場大雨就可能把原本大家規劃好評估好的事情全部都推翻那加上這次菸涉湖涉及到的這個阻亂機關不只是單一個單位我們中央必須要痛定思痛來強化各單位之間的聯繫我們資訊的共享還有通報機制我相信呃市長也非常了解這個過程掌聲的問題哦那因此真本席提出兩點的建議第一個就是說"},{"start":15798.022,"end":15825.987,"text":"強化跨部會的這個驗射壺潛勢監測平台那本席知道我們農業部目前一個叫國有林防災應變及驗射壺監測系統但實際上我們去網路上看我們去網站上看它比較像是會診各單位的這個會議紀錄的一個地方那農業部應該要更整個更多的跨部會的這個即時的資訊包括我們農業部的這個邊波的穩定系統然後航車的圖像還有水利署的水利署這個"},{"start":15827.11,"end":15851.584,"text":"河川監測資訊等等我們可以透過我們這個AI影像來判讀監測我們地形的變化然後提前來辨識我們高風險這個地段讓不管是我們中央也好地方政府也好甚至我們當地的民眾都可以一目了然然後上這個平台能夠有效的即刻掌握到我們資訊那第二個 第二點的建議就是我們社會中央解釋應用社會風險地圖應變的SOP"},{"start":15854.827,"end":15870.778,"text":"目前我們之內有土石流還有河川做潛勢風險的這個地圖以及分級警戒應變機制那但針對我們這次驗射虎這樣子複合性的這些災害未來應該有更明確更專屬的風險地圖以及不同的風險應變機制才對"},{"start":15872.506,"end":15893.543,"text":"那這當中我們涉及到的這個資訊整合的管道絕對不會是單一個地方政府他有能力做到那我們最後一定要扛起責任這真的要跨部會來一起來合作那針對菸攝乎的這個事件見解風險之後我們在每一次的地震或風災過後我們就要針對高風險地區再做一次的評估再做一次的評估"},{"start":15894.298,"end":15908.35,"text":"那避免未來的事情將會發生像各位也應該很清楚知道0403之後整個東部的狀況他越來越難漲我所以他即使去變更這個是很重要的讓你能夠了解到那後一屆風太大風水大"},{"start":15909.693,"end":15927.067,"text":"或是它是在台東發現我們該怎麼辦其實台東的鄉親也很擔心我們在這次下鄉的時候每個都在講說我們在客水很高的會不會沖一百大家都很擔心會發生一樣的事情因為我相信這件事情對國人都有產生特別是東部的民眾產生很大很大的陰影"},{"start":15928.137,"end":15948.1,"text":"那我想這邊再請市長來回應好非常謝謝召委兩個提醒也是提問我想就像您所說的其實在整個氣候變遷加劇的狀況之下所有的災害其實都會是複合性的而且不是單一點的那我們現在要做的其實就是把這些資訊第一個要整合起來"},{"start":15948.701,"end":15975.415,"text":"所以剛剛提到的不管是這個潛勢區的監測平台不是只有農業部也包括經濟部甚至包括我們的NCDR科技防災中心還甚至我們科技國科會還有各個專家其實這是一個團隊那也許有人手上有這部分資料有人有那部分資料一定要統合起來看才是一個完整的這個風險地圖而且這個一定要隨時做所以我想我們不管是衛星資料航拍資料"},{"start":15976.215,"end":15997.845,"text":"無人機資料或是甚至最近我們也找了經濟部地礦中心他們有長期的監測資料包括礦產整個的變形我想這些資料都統合起來才是我們將來在防災也好有更好的準備那老實講真的不敢講說人定會勝天因為在什麼狀況之下我們真的不知道我們只能希望說"},{"start":15999.165,"end":16015.558,"text":"我們希望有更好的準備所以剛剛提到的不管是在平台也好在救災的SOP也好應處的準則或甚至在演練我想這個必須在一次又一次的操作中讓大家知道說其實要有準備"},{"start":16016.809,"end":16039.179,"text":"那其實我們能夠有更好的結果如果我們大家能夠一起把這件事情再做得更完善一點不管手冊也好SOP也好更精準的預先溝通或者是能夠提早做準備寧可及早疏散就是預防性的疏散我們也不願意見到有任何一個人的損失我想這次應該在一次一次當中我們要學習到"},{"start":16039.919,"end":16059.897,"text":"市長我們希望能夠藉由這件事情之後發現到整個未來應應整個極端氣候我們該怎麼去面對特別是跨國的合作然後跟地方政府的合作我們不希望這樣的憾事再次發生那特別也都知道像這是像邊鄉地區他原本就是在資源缺乏然後人口老化的情況之下"},{"start":16060.357,"end":16079.693,"text":"他們根本沒有能力根本沒有能力應付這麼大的災害那接下來我想要請我們這個請教這個內政部的部長保定這針對這次驗射虎這個災害事件內政部作為災害防救中央主管單位我想他絕對有必要的責任針對災害發生後"},{"start":16081.024,"end":16094.362,"text":"各個環節進行來全面性的檢討我想不管是中央或地方都一樣我們就是好好的釐清問題才能夠解決問題啦齁那同樣本縣會提出兩個建議第一個就是說針對目前的這個災害防救法"},{"start":16094.909,"end":16122.776,"text":"有一些關於撤離的規範過於簡化尤其是針對這個強制撤離居民這一項就缺乏明確的相對應的這個強制手段其實是對於地方政府也特別是偏鄉你要在短時間撤離千人真的是一件非常困難的事情本席從村幹事開始然後到地方的民意代表然後到鄉鎮長我們在側村遇到的情況都是很難去處理的"},{"start":16123.462,"end":16139.581,"text":"那因此對於相對這個相關策略方式分工以法律賦予政府機關強制力這個如何以確保生命安全為優先然後給予更明確的這個規範我想在這個法規上我們應該要進行來檢討"},{"start":16141.323,"end":16159.439,"text":"那第二件事就是在強化驗社會這個防災的宣導還有演練我想這一次的驗社會造成這個大規模的災害可以說是少有這個先例可循那又涉及到剛剛提到跨部會的這個資訊的整合那我想必須要由中央機關來組織輔導我們地方"},{"start":16161.961,"end":16185.611,"text":"縣市政府甚至直接輔導高風險地區的鄉鎮市公所進行這個縣市社會的防災宣導還有應變的這個機制擬定我們才可以從上到下更具體的這個強化防災韌性還有我們民眾的這防災的意識那以上這兩個建議我確實不一定我們也好好來研議一下但不是再次強調我們希望"},{"start":16186.371,"end":16205.191,"text":"那絕對不是去歸咎哪一個特定的單位或是個人或是要釐清問題才能夠解決問題那避免造成我們這樣子的傷害那以上就是幾個建議也請所剛剛提到兩個單位能夠好好的演繹那以上謝謝"},{"start":16226.665,"end":16228.346,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員謝謝主席 有請內政部部長內政部部長委員好部長好 延續上一次諮詢的主題就是蠟總統"},{"start":16249.82,"end":16272.442,"text":"針對有關於社會住宅的推動上一次在內政委員會我有請教過一次因為就具體上面來講就是百萬戶怎麼計算這件事情我上次質詢有說過我就不要再重複現在大家關注的焦點在於賴總統所提出來的政見跟施政的計畫其中興建社會住宅要有13萬戶"},{"start":16274.543,"end":16299.185,"text":"但非常多的NGO還有年輕人大家都在關心一件事情最近13萬戶的社會住宅目前他們所得到的資訊因為這個是NGO的朋友跟一些年輕人他們來反映他們掌握到的資訊是不是客觀真實如果有不對的地方等一下也請部長一併釐清他們目前所掌握到的資訊是說"},{"start":16300.846,"end":16312.753,"text":"內政部針對有關於興建社會住宅所提出來的一個計畫後來行政院不願意去核定然後卡在行政院事情是不是這個樣子"},{"start":16314.066,"end":16339.321,"text":"報告委員應該是說行政院對於我們所提的三個方案就是直接興建社會住宅包租貸款還有所謂的租金補貼他們認為租金補貼啊算不算是屬於社會住宅的一種當然是啊後來我們解釋過他願意接受部長您看一下所以才會核定我講話都很具體的啦包租貸款多少興建多少租屋補貼多少"},{"start":16340.101,"end":16361.301,"text":"當初賴總統講得很清楚所以三個數字我是個別列的現在表格上面部長有看到嗎右手邊賴清德預計達成戶數包租貸款17萬戶新建13萬戶租金補貼10萬戶這個是賴總統當初所提出來的證件那個表格我整理得蠻清楚部長這樣看應該可以掌握啦"},{"start":16362.565,"end":16383.824,"text":"現在大家關心的事情是說包租代管也好租金補貼也好現在我今天延續著上一次質詢的主題大家關心的是新建社會住宅的部分新建社會住宅的部分大家看到的是說目前你們新建社會住宅的計畫卡在行政院到目前為止沒有核定是嗎"},{"start":16384.534,"end":16408.225,"text":"不是我剛跟您報告過了就是說這三個方案裡面行政院只有對於這個租金補貼的定義會不會像我們所述的所以後來行政院還是以百萬戶為主對不起我現在在問的是興建社會住宅我知道所以他沒有特別強調說那沒有關係我現在問一下是目前那個政府所核定要興建社會住宅今年核定了幾戶"},{"start":16409.437,"end":16425.86,"text":"今年核定的我可不可以把全部跟您報告一下好不好我們如果用那個每一年的部分的話每一年的目標是5000到1000先不用跟我講目標因為目標我後來有整理出來了今年核定的幾戶到114年9月底的時候全國社會住宅已經達到"},{"start":16427.642,"end":16442.111,"text":"這個直接新辦的部分是12萬1000人不是啊 那是以前舊的資料我說你要新的 新建的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶不是以前舊的data新的你要蓋的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶我現在的部分就是這樣的我們的目標是22萬戶現在已經達成12萬戶啊部長不好意思齁我現在在問A 但是你一直在回答B我再跟你講一次齁"},{"start":16455.816,"end":16469.855,"text":"你們現在針對有關於興建社會住宅不是包租代管不是租金補貼是要蓋房子起來的社會住宅你們今年核定的計畫核定的幾戶要興建我手頭上沒有"},{"start":16470.916,"end":16480.241,"text":"是有這個數字還是說根本沒有核定當然有這個數字但是我手頭上沒有這個數字沒有關係我上一次問的時候吳興修署長跟我講的是這件事情還在討論還在研議還在規劃"},{"start":16492.088,"end":16501.538,"text":"沒有一個答案今天部長在備詢台上說有今年有核定要興建社會住宅的戶數只是您現在手上沒有這個數字對嗎"},{"start":16504.574,"end":16528.894,"text":"今年已經到10月當然我們已經有合訂的部分現在合訂了幾戶現在你沒有這個數字沒有關係你會後什麼時候合訂的合訂的幾戶書面資料給我好不好我請那個副署長到時候再給你因為現在您今天在上面講的跟大家所掌握的資訊落差非常的大因為10月9號的時候我們的辦公室問國土署"},{"start":16529.794,"end":16543.89,"text":"國土署回覆給我們的是針對興建社會住宅的部分內政部修正的計畫提給行政院到目前為止還沒有核定這個是我在10月9號的時候辦公室的同仁所得到的回覆"},{"start":16544.631,"end":16563.873,"text":"那按照部長的說法是有核定只是你現在不知道幾戶我再確認一次是這樣沒有錯嗎那我要把時間表再弄清楚沒有關係因為到時候為什麼國土署在10月9號是這樣回覆我們辦公室同仁我們再搞清楚但我最關心的事情是什麼我直接跟部長講這個"},{"start":16565.888,"end":16581.034,"text":"直接新辦戶數這個是二年度各個年度預計累計的新辦戶數你說每一年有計劃譬如說114年就今年2025年要有15000戶115年要有15000戶116年要有15000戶這個計劃上面的數字我們都看到了但計劃歸計劃我們目前看到的事情是說按照內政部的計劃書"},{"start":16594.58,"end":16599.324,"text":"今年要招標15000戶今年有任何一戶招標嗎好可以報告租屋中心也持續在現在那個盤點的土地上面其實陸陸續續都有今年招標了幾戶詳細數字一樣會後提供一樣因為這個是"},{"start":16621.363,"end":16641.033,"text":"你剛剛所講的過去計畫幾戶然後完成的幾戶每一個數字把它列出來大概是這個樣子但是我要說的事情是我們目前所掌握到的資訊因為社會住宅的進度包括內政部公告的資料其實我都有定期在追蹤因為一定要定期追蹤才知道說實際上面的進度是什麼"},{"start":16641.713,"end":16670.725,"text":"我們目前所掌握到的資料目前在處理的社會住宅都還是蔡英文總統任內他們所核定的賴清德總統任內所核定興建的社會住宅我到今天備詢為止我所掌握到的資訊是零戶但是部長說不對說有那只是數字你沒有辦法提供那會後再提供沒有關係我們到會後再進一步跟部長討教這個數字因為有進度最重要有進度最重要"},{"start":16671.565,"end":16696.366,"text":"下一個問題是跟內政部也有關係的跟內政部有什麼關係呢因為我們為了要發展地熱為了要發展地熱的發電經濟部的地礦中心在陽明山國家公園管理處辦理探勘在這個過程當中造成了什麼造成了井噴所以陽明山那邊的住戶非常非常的關心"},{"start":16697.148,"end":16721.683,"text":"那針對這件事情我有問過地礦中心地礦中心說這個廠商在執行的過程當中出了一些狀況出了一些狀況那顯然就是沒有把這個案子給執行所以出現這樣子的災難那下一個問題是針對有關於國家公園管理處在國家公園境內有廠商"},{"start":16722.563,"end":16749.73,"text":"沒有依照應該有的規格跟標準去執行地質探探作業而造成廠商的損害的這一件事情有兩個部分一個依照國家公園法該開罰就開罰只是開罰的金額很可笑新台幣3000元這個不是我真的在意的我真的在意的是它對於國家公園所造成的傷害這個損害到底要怎麼樣去填補的問題"},{"start":16751.192,"end":16773.962,"text":"那我現在所得到的資訊是說目前針對有關於破壞陽明山國家公園森林的結果我們的內政部國家公園管理處是跟經濟部地礦中心求償不是跟廠商求償這個是怎麼回事因為當時在申請的時候是經濟部他是用研究計畫的方式所以我們就認為是經濟部他應該負責全責"},{"start":16776.158,"end":16793.312,"text":"那你們為什麼不是跟實際的行為人求償呢那如果是這樣的話經濟部可以跟實際的行為人求償好第二個問題目前陽明山國家公園管理處我先講兩個問題的層次啦因為整個事情我看了覺得蠻好笑的"},{"start":16794.278,"end":16821.298,"text":"我們的陽明山國家公園管理處跟經濟部的地礦中心求償等於是跟國家的左手跟國家的右手求償錢全部都是納稅人的錢重點是跟廠商求償但我現在最關心的一個問題是說求償的這一百多萬國家公園管理處是按照什麼樣子的基準計算出來的因為我所得到的我所得到一方面"},{"start":16822.645,"end":16847.165,"text":"是居住在陽明山那邊居民的陳情那另外一方面是什麼另外一方面是有人去施壓啦當這個廠商說相啦這個廠商後台很硬啦開了三番的協調會談這個我事後再追跟內政部沒有關係但我關心的事情是什麼我關心的事情是內政部國家公園管理處針對這個球場的金額是怎麼計算出來的第二個這個錢夠嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":16855.2,"end":16877.933,"text":"報告委員應該是根據當時經濟部的地礦局跟這個廠商他們之間到底是怎麼樣一個委託的計畫那是地礦中心跟廠商求償的問題現在第一個是真正該開罰的是國家公園管理處因為他造成我們國家公園的破壞按照你剛剛的說明當初提計畫的人是地礦中心所以你們跟地礦中心討"},{"start":16878.954,"end":16895.373,"text":"那地礦中心會不會跟廠商討接下一步要去問地礦中心這個過程我都了解現在我的問題是第一棟什麼叫第一棟國家公園管理處跟地礦中心求償這100多萬的時候我看到這個數字我非常的驚訝我驚訝的理由是說第一個這個錢夠嗎第二個這個錢怎麼計算出來的"},{"start":16900.53,"end":16915.564,"text":"他在文章裡面對不起他在給的那個函裡面想得非常清楚就是有關於裡面的數目或者是說裡面的引起的一些富裕上面的問題他都把他寫得非常的所以你看嘛每公頃補償第一年十二萬一千嘛"},{"start":16916.204,"end":16935.096,"text":"第二年六萬兩千九百嘛 第三年到第六年每一年四萬塊嘛但我現在的問題還是一樣啊你如果說在探討這個球場的金額合理不合理你只是單純把這個數字加起來沒有意義啊現在我更深一層的問題是這一些每一年多少錢的數字是怎麼估出來的真的夠嗎 這是我的問題"},{"start":16940.494,"end":16955.08,"text":"時間到了沒有關係啊部長可不可以請你承諾請國家公園管理處會後提供一份說明資料給我清楚的說明為什麼是用這個標準來計算因為釀成了這樣子的災害可能我不懂啊"},{"start":16955.72,"end":16972.866,"text":"可能我不懂對國家公園的維護原來這樣子一百多萬元就可以解決問題我自己看了是有點反常識我覺得是不夠但是當初國家公園管理處到底怎麼計算出來的他的基準是什麼是不是可以請國家公園管理處會後"},{"start":16974.406,"end":16997.127,"text":"會後用書面回覆給我可以嗎國家公園署吧 國家公園署比較好我想是不是請國家公園署跟委員這邊做一下說明然後包括沒有關係直接給我書面的養管處為什麼只有酒廠100多萬這個部分好嗎直接給我書面好嗎因為我覺得非常奇怪的是如果今天是這個廠商必須要負責任的話為什麼"},{"start":16999.935,"end":17017.582,"text":"最後的金額只有這個樣子這個錢真的夠嗎這個是我現在正在關心的事情需要多久一個禮拜之內可以嗎我想應該可以因為這件事情是七月底所以他們在算的過程當中應該已經有依據好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員"},{"start":17044.927,"end":17074.266,"text":"主席有請內政部還有農業部經濟部委員好部長還有大家都辛苦了今天這個本席提出一些這個資料不是要救者就是要從這個這一次的災害我們怎麼樣去做更好的一個防範好我們看這一次的馬太安燕塞府"},{"start":17075.595,"end":17103.842,"text":"花蓮光復及鳳嶺的嚴重災害有三大項第一個就是人民的傷亡人民的傷亡的原因當然跟沒有完全撤離有關係這是第一個第一個原因第二個為處理防範菸塞浮潰壩這是第二個原因其實主要原因第三個人民傷亡就提防未修築"},{"start":17104.778,"end":17133.335,"text":"加固加高這兩個才是最重要的撤離是最後的好第二個房屋淹水土石家計沖毀汽車機車沖毀農田農作物淹埋土石加上道路還有很多的公設施被沖毀他主要原因與撤離無關跟撤離沒有關係"},{"start":17134.525,"end":17163.619,"text":"是跟著嗎沒有處理防範菸塞浮潰壩沒有防範潰壩另外當然就是提防沒有修組未修組加固加高第三個馬太安溪的橋沖毀當然主要就是這個菸塞浮沒有處理沒有防範潰壩我們看這個今天"},{"start":17166.409,"end":17191.603,"text":"這個災害防救法第22條為減少災害發生或防止災害擴大各級政府要怎麼怎麼樣要減災包括治山防洪及其他國土保安災害潛勢危險度近況模擬與風險評估之調查分析及事實公佈其結果都有公佈了我們看一下"},{"start":17193.376,"end":17222.946,"text":"今天经农业部的报告你们从114年7月下旬来去谈今天的这么重大的灾害这是你们今天的报告提到花莲分属7月26号空情中然后提到7月26号林业属花莲分属成立烟赛福应变小组一个花莲分属"},{"start":17223.837,"end":17252.839,"text":"这个层级就有需要检讨一个花莲分属他能够他只能找一些比如说九合分属对不对所以这个层级就有问题就需要检讨好我们看农业部的报告7月26号起这个摇测分数然后怎么做这些工作8月158月11阳明大选"},{"start":17253.706,"end":17283.026,"text":"成大8月20号已经是8月中旬以后了这个都是要去针对这一次的灾情这么大怎么样去做更好的一个措施好我们看这个农业部的报告7月26号刚刚讲了花莲分属召开应变小组8月6号花莲分属防灾工作"},{"start":17283.703,"end":17313.262,"text":"也是花蓮分署而已一直到8月27號才提高到行政院的成績行政院折承農業部還是折承農業部而已所以這個部分從這樣的我還沒有全部列好我們來看這是農業部林業署的資料這是你們的"},{"start":17314,"end":17335.964,"text":"馬太安溪淹塞浮現況的報告單這裡面寫得很清楚馬安溪支流92年已有崩塌現象109年起我把字放大109年起支流上游裸露面積逐年擴大"},{"start":17336.721,"end":17365.926,"text":"以其主流馬鞍溪匯流處有時有細水有時無細水細水面積0.25公頃113年康瑞颱風加大了7年我們就不談109好了最起碼7年7年113年我們要深刻的來檢討好我們看"},{"start":17367.728,"end":17393.341,"text":"本席在8月初開始知道媒體開始知道這個訊息所以我在8月13號提了這個附帶結議這裡面提的很重要的就是說工程方面工程措施方面挖一紅道修築堤防固船工等這個"},{"start":17396.687,"end":17424.518,"text":"在8月15號8月15號立法院通過了這個結議本席在8月20號發文給相關的部會召開協調會因為我看到訊息說10月初就要預留了所以我8月20號開了協調會特別提到"},{"start":17425.256,"end":17453.75,"text":"要依立法院的決議開挖易洪道開挖易洪道有困難最起碼修築堤防故傳功德寫得非常清清楚楚很遺憾當時的會議水利署請來的是誰呢一樣九合幾他能做嗎沒有預算給他沒有經費給他他怎麼去做呢對不對"},{"start":17455.387,"end":17478.324,"text":"好我們看就是有發生了個災害之後水利署很辛苦的動員了各分署的機器工程人員10月5號加高完成10月5號從8月24號發生災害9月24號發生9月23號發生災害9月24號開始"},{"start":17484.591,"end":17512.312,"text":"去看了解 再寫9月25號緊急施作短短的時間所以如果我們從去年抗類颱風之後如果能夠積極的處理不要說一洪道了防範潰壩真的有困難的話最起碼是修築堤防"},{"start":17513.908,"end":17542.715,"text":"就不会冲到部落冲到社区冲毁这个相关的人民所以这个部分中企就是明年4月会完成复建工程所以这个时间你看如果当初当然水利署你没有经费必须行政要给你经费所以这个部分都是环环相扣的环环相扣"},{"start":17545.662,"end":17570.066,"text":"我們看這個經濟部的報告好國有林地菸塞浮應變標準作業程序請問一下這個林業署農業部這個國有林地菸塞浮應變標準作業程序是你們訂的嗎對你們訂的對不對要不要檢討要嘛要檢討要檢討"},{"start":17574.461,"end":17600.519,"text":"現在顯然這個應變標準作業程序難以防範難以所以這個都是要檢討所以你們很辛苦的去救災的同時怎麼樣把防範因為台灣多山啊多多煙災福啊所以這個部分"},{"start":17602.335,"end":17630.517,"text":"多要所以看到这样的一个情形真的我们不要集中在某些该检讨的当然要检讨该怎么样能够做得更好防范未来非常非常的重要所以这个部分请这个尤其是内政部因为障害防救法是你们的法律"},{"start":17630.99,"end":17648.366,"text":"主管機關怎麼樣災害的預防更甚於後續的救災所以這個部分災害預防非常非常的重要大家一起加油一起努力謝謝好謝謝委員支持"},{"start":17658.91,"end":17661.913,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員 接下來我們請楊瓊英委員發言謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長邀請董事長"},{"start":17679.81,"end":17694.612,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了我想碰到這樣的事情大家都很心痛但是我們要團結好好的努力去將我們必要做的一定要把它做到到位要精進的我們要好好精進"},{"start":17695.834,"end":17713.61,"text":"那所以呢我看到你的這個資料裡頭也據媒體報導在10月9號我們看到你有一個預告有一個預告也就是年底到明年初要在12個縣市成立原民特收隊來強化部落防災救災的一個量能"},{"start":17714.11,"end":17734.319,"text":"那我們也看到據統計739個部落當中446處就是屬於環境敏感的地區188處是屬於孤島型的部落那災難發生時不管是交通中斷通訊失聯這種看得到到不了"},{"start":17735.419,"end":17759.221,"text":"的情況那麼似乎現在我們看到常態那如果中央呢我們在整個都市計畫的這個消防邏輯設計是以這個為主那更欠缺了一個統一訓練跟調度的一個機制那我深怕 我深怕我們的原民特首隊又會成為一個流雨形勢所以我本行因為我們台中"},{"start":17759.841,"end":17780.069,"text":"自己為我們的部落早上我也跟經濟部長也在討論也就是當他偏鄉他一旦發生災難的時候他的店也沒有辦法進去的時候那麼微型電網必須能夠佈建在那裡讓他們至少三天72小時他是可以應對的"},{"start":17781.149,"end":17791.261,"text":"那所以呢本期非常的希望原民特收隊他不是留意形勢而是真正能夠在地防災在地這個救災那請教部長你們的進度跟你們的方向報告委員我們10月9號的時候我要求我們的消防署"},{"start":17800.973,"end":17827.449,"text":"跟12個縣市包括台中市在內成立這個原民特收隊那原民特收隊呢第一個譬如說他退休的這個特種這個部隊的成員或者是在國家公園署或者是現在的內政部有這個山地原住民的這些身份的人他們能夠就地經過我們在南投縣竹山的這個消防特收的訓練之後才能夠成立而不是流於形式"},{"start":17828.129,"end":17849.192,"text":"那這個人是外加的一定要受過訓練如果沒有受過訓練取得資格的話就不叫特收隊所以我們的目的就是要在地防救跟在地防災基本上是在地但是如果萬一有更大的部分也是要協同幫忙處理其他的部分"},{"start":17850.373,"end":17874.506,"text":"必須要跨部會這個很重要原民會跟我們一起舉行記者會所以就是內政部跟原民會會一起來推動好那接下來本席要跟你討論的炸氣犯罪呢他是已經高度的數位化高度的數位化那他不只數位化他還跨境化他甚至我們現在如果傳統能力的增長是難以應付"},{"start":17875.253,"end":17877.254,"text":"但是因為人工智慧AI它又可以很快速的去處理龐大的資料而且可以分析交易跟IP的一個流量那預測異常的行為對於跨國整個網路的詐欺破案它是有影響力的"},{"start":17894.204,"end":17897.286,"text":"但是我們也看到AI它仍舊沒有辦法去取代在現場蒐證跟情緒的判斷如果演算錯誤的話那又會導致人權的一個爭議所以部長跟警政署相關單位"},{"start":17911.693,"end":17935.692,"text":"目前我們所規劃的AI輔助這個偵查制度當中我們的標準的這個流程以及審查的流程還有也就是在我們釐清警察的AI的培訓這一點是非常非常的重要因為我們的目的要確保AI在打擊犯罪詐騙的時候能夠成為真正的這個幫助而不是成為主力請教部長"},{"start":17943.058,"end":17957.374,"text":"委員非常的先進知道說AI可以輔助我們在警政署尤其是警政同仁在從事司法警察工作上面的困擾我們當然也是一樣AI它沒有辦法跟人一樣"},{"start":17958.135,"end":17976.179,"text":"所以現在AI對我們來講他是屬於科技偵查裡面非常重要的一部分包括我們要處理龐大的資料量或者是要分析或者是IP這些都是屬於後端在做科技偵查裡面必要的手段那目前為止的我們在處理的方向不會觸及到真人"},{"start":17976.519,"end":17997.589,"text":"所以比較沒有人權上面的一個必須要以現在的法律來規範的以外的部分不會超出我們的法制外那也謝謝我們在這個上個會期跟這個會期裡面我們在警政署裡面通過一個大的這個流量記錄器這個大概三年要用102億的部分就是我們累積大量的資料來做分析"},{"start":17998.109,"end":18012.947,"text":"那也跟委員報告目前我們的警政署尤其是刑事局的科技偵查中心大概從歷次的這個詐騙案裡面已經累計出來我們大概會鎖定大概是有9萬個這個帳號或是9萬的他是屬於有潛在高風險"},{"start":18014.389,"end":18039.683,"text":"那既然是潛在高風險我們就會針對潛在高風險這是經過AI的幫忙來去處理怎麼樣提醒他不要踏入這個詐騙的陷阱大概是後端的科學技術上面增防非常重要的一部分這個非常重要 對所以這也是全世界的一個趨勢但是我們要注意在整個培訓方面本席認為這是非常重要因為在整個判斷方面如果判斷錯誤那整個也會歪樓"},{"start":18042.384,"end":18067.116,"text":"所以本席還是建議我們在AI的這個遠景的一個培訓方面你必須要與時俱進是 我們每一個刑事局每一個刑事單位都有科技偵查隊這以前講針灸隊那他們應該是在法律的規範之下才能夠從事這方面的工作這非常重要 培訓也是非常重要接下來本席跟你討論一個我們陽明山國家公園管理處的議題"},{"start":18069.597,"end":18074.681,"text":"因為我們從109年看到在園區流浪貓犬本身非常的重視這個議題那我們看到現在跟這個鄉信動物協會還有少數的志工他們在合作進行的TNVR但是我們看到整體性的計畫似乎是不足的為什麼呢因為整個"},{"start":18095.378,"end":18107.309,"text":"這個犬隻他不斷的自園區外溢在外溢的情況之下我們看到台北市街頭的流浪貓犬約有九成都是來自陽明山國家公園的管轄區內這個我有點不太相信"},{"start":18111.493,"end":18117.377,"text":"你請說來你請看形成地方收容他的壓力還有民眾安全的疑慮安全疑慮那我們顯示部長在整個地方收容已經有壓力跟公共安全的這個危險性的時候我們要怎麼樣能夠協助國家公園他們在做這一個我們大家希望照著流程做TMVR的這個流程"},{"start":18138.971,"end":18143.636,"text":"能夠讓他們去落實讓這個外溢的機制它是沒有風險的請求說明"},{"start":18147.35,"end":18175.268,"text":"報告委員第一個我不太相信台北市的流量犬貓九成是來自養管處因為養管處他不可能去成立一個動物繁殖場但是我相信您所講的沒有錯流量犬貓是需要管理的那詳細的管理狀況第一個我會責成陽明山國家公園管理處把現在的狀況跟委員做一個報告那再來呢如果是流量犬貓要管理的話要跟地方政府一起來合作"},{"start":18176.068,"end":18179.433,"text":"包括有結紮等等就是比較人道性的作為來處理這個部分那養管處他們在管理上面有沒有失靈的部分我會後會來請這個養管處說一個說明我想你先站不說你相信不相信"},{"start":18192.944,"end":18196.266,"text":"問題產生的時候我們要去研議了解實境的明末這是第一個第二個因為陽明山管理公園他的一個管轄區他是有限制區所以要怎麼樣可以合作這是我們很重要的一個議題現在提出在他們作為計劃的這個方向他沒有辦法去落實的時候我們應該要協助他"},{"start":18219.457,"end":18221.979,"text":"應該協助他所以你剛剛的回答很好你會責成他們目前他們執行的狀況究竟是如何我們去研議怎麼樣的方式可以精進方案這才是我們要的請你把了解的情況順便資料給本席我們一起來討論謝謝"},{"start":18242.932,"end":18257.62,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在接下來邱志偉委員邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在接下來洪孟凱委員"},{"start":18272.196,"end":18299.016,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請內政部劉世芳部長我們請劉部長農業部次長也麻煩還有農業部次長好部長那個本期間當然大家都關心所謂驗射壺的相關的一個後續的狀況其實就是花蓮的一個部分那我先跟您這邊再做個確認因為本期記得在兩個禮拜前左右的這個特別條例"},{"start":18300.39,"end":18328.426,"text":"的一个质询的时候我有请教当时李洪源前部长他也是用他的专家的一个意见是讲是说目前还有所谓3.2亿泥沙本来上面有3.2亿泥沙那现在这一次下来7000万泥沙还有2.5亿泥沙左右但是他讲的我后来特别注意到他讲的所谓是泥沙的部分并不是水量的部分今天几个部会给我们的数据就说现在到目前为止"},{"start":18329.174,"end":18349.45,"text":"馬太安溪的這個艷澀湖的水量約蓄水量是155萬公噸所以我先請教一下因為9月24號本期有看到一個數字是李洪源部長這邊有跟內政部這邊來做討論是說9月24號上面還有所謂3000萬公噸的水量那到今天"},{"start":18350.307,"end":18362.572,"text":"提供的资料只剩155万公吨所以是不是这个验射壶它其实还是有持续有把这些水量排放的一个状况说明一下好吧我想因为监测单位是农业部我请他来回应好吗"},{"start":18366.369,"end":18390.531,"text":"跟委員報告目前確實是他達到一個差不多平衡的狀態就是進多少水他就出多少水所以他其實過去到現在一直還是有所謂的水量有流失的一個狀況是不是自然的流失他目前是維持平衡目前的這個水量沒有太多的消長那現在會因為是您剛所說到剩下150萬噸"},{"start":18392.458,"end":18418.95,"text":"跟之前的數據有比較大差異是因為我們重新安裝水位計之後發現到他應該是在之前923的時候溢流潰絕的過程當中他有很多的泥沙也往湖區來沉積然後當天下大雨所以也很多泥沙進來所以他現在的湖底的形狀可能從原本比較像一個碗的形狀變成是一個淺碟子的形狀所以水量是變少但是那邊的問題現在是"},{"start":18419.95,"end":18437.812,"text":"您剛所提到土砂的問題是泥沙的問題嗎所以我想要確認的地方就是說你今天白紫黑字的資料是155萬公噸的水量那泥沙呢因為李洪源部長他在上個禮拜的記者會其實讓我們這個數字我覺得相信"},{"start":18438.592,"end":18461.61,"text":"對於當地的居民來說或說全國民眾來說也是會感到焦慮的就是說上面有3.2億噸的泥沙但這一次即便是那麼嚴重的風災只下來了7000不能講只啦下來了7000萬公噸那上面還有2.5億的泥沙那會不會接下來現代極端氣候那我們要怎麼樣因應"},{"start":18462.577,"end":18475.213,"text":"我覺得這才是關鍵嘛對這也是我們後續要特別在監測跟防範的那就是上頭的這些差不多還有2.5億萬立方的這個泥沙他未來會隨著比如說大禹"},{"start":18478.276,"end":18500.615,"text":"這個它有可能還是會逐漸往下移動那即使是沒有豪大雨的情況下長期有時候下小雨它還是會比較緩慢的向下移動所以包含最下游的青蘇還有剛今天大家所關注的堤防的這個加高還有就是說怎麼樣在中上游想辦法能夠有一些藍沙或主沙不要讓這些沙一次"},{"start":18501.395,"end":18530.371,"text":"一次性的嚴重對這個都是後續從上中下游都要去努力的好那所以剛剛也確認是說現在確實上面還有2.5億公噸的一個泥沙是好那現在比較積極的作為我相信一定會有可是如果說短時間內這可能就要回來到部長這邊部長上禮拜我記得我質詢的時候有特別詢問過所謂有沒有中央啟動千春計畫那當時您給我的答覆是說一個禮拜現在在一"},{"start":18531.86,"end":18549.698,"text":"咨詢相關這個村民的一個意見對受災戶的意見那現在的狀況怎麼樣你說一個禮拜內跟委員報告那個我們現在在重災戶的部分呢幾乎每一戶都有找到人因為有的時候他們到收容安置或者移清到別的地方那我們現在呢所以我們重災戶這樣子總共計算下來89戶對"},{"start":18553.061,"end":18567.106,"text":"那現在呢有58戶呢在收容安置那39戶依親那目前為止呢有40戶表達需要中繼屋那那個到目前為止呢沒有人表達要遷村"},{"start":18569.207,"end":18598.245,"text":"那這個是個別災戶的意見所以我們現在可能就是先朝著說在台塘的一塊五公頃的土地上面看是不是先來蓋中繼屋然後才慢慢解決他們未來收容安置的問題所以說中繼屋有可能是在台塘這邊會由內政部這邊來做進行嗎是的 我們會負責處理這一塊但是他們要不要去中繼屋還要再問他們你剛剛有提到就是說有40戶表達意願是他們是希望去中繼屋所以說其實也還沒有到一半"},{"start":18598.985,"end":18612.048,"text":"因為你89戶的重災戶嘛對好那剩下的這些重災戶勒有的人可能要移清39戶移清有的人要移清有人要租屋是有的人要回到原住所"},{"start":18612.662,"end":18623.168,"text":"因為本席有看到您這邊今天內政部的相關資料有包括說一清有包括說租屋補貼或是租金補貼或是短期旅宿等等的部分這是最近現在這個狀態現在這個狀態但比較長期的狀態重災戶是89戶"},{"start":18629.693,"end":18656.452,"text":"所以本席現在想確認的地方就是說因為剛剛我們也詢問完畢了嘛就是說上面如果說至少有2.5億公噸的泥沙那其實某種程度上我們短時間內也沒有辦法有比較積極的作為當然你有1 2 3的步驟但實際上在那個地方到底適不適合居住這可能大家都還要再評估甚至打一個問號所以說我們現在想的是說怎麼樣保障地方的鄉親的一個權利本席那個時候提出來當時在"},{"start":18658.71,"end":18674.622,"text":"不管是921地震或是88風災莫拉克風災的時候其實就是中央地方有一起配合尤其是中央提出所謂的災後復原計畫條例那並且中央這邊協助引導不管是部會的溝通以及編列的預算還有"},{"start":18675.752,"end":18692.056,"text":"後續的整合的部分所以我現在才請教是說那到底我們後續這一個部分重災戶也好或是說花蓮的鄉親在這邊的一個鄉親他後續何去何從報告委員我們上個禮拜的行政院議會已經有通過一個丹納斯颱風加上這一次這個那個豔賽湖的部分"},{"start":18697.157,"end":18702.818,"text":"所以我們的預算呢是編列250億就除了丹納斯以外的這個600億以外編列250億那針對後續的這個收容安置的部分的話大概我們提出三種條件一個就是異地重建一個是原地重建那這個部分呢當然是要問過災民的意見那還有一個在這中間的中繼的部分的話呢我要求我們的次長來協助看是不是這個東華大學"},{"start":18725.962,"end":18729.744,"text":"跟都市防災有關的或是區域計畫有關的幫我們做一下基本上如果未來這個地方仍然有這個驗賽湖的這個危機的話要不要做不同的都市計畫包括說是不是整個要遷移到某個地方因為這一次呢目前為止是緩和的狀態明年的汛期有沒有更大的颱風要來沒有人敢保證"},{"start":18751.719,"end":18760.007,"text":"甚至不一定以現在的極端氣候其實你說十月有可能颱風也會沒有人敢預測 人定無法勝天所以我們希望在兩三個月之內包括東華大學的這個都市建築研究所在提供告訴我們說過去的歷史紀錄裡面以來"},{"start":18773.5,"end":18791.026,"text":"現在的重災區媽祖街那個地方89戶是不是都不宜居住那這個部分出來以後我們會朝著這方向再跟花蓮縣政府或是光復鄉公所來做比較好的溝通是因為其實我覺得對災民來講他們也需要是專業的判斷告訴他們說到底他們的家園後續要怎麼做"},{"start":18794.207,"end":18799.07,"text":"會對於他們的生命財產安全其實是最有力的幫助對 這是中長期我們要處理的計畫但是短期內就是我們這兩天這個紀連城政委希望跟花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所展開處理一下疏散撤離的機制因為現在的人已經不居住在原地他在收容安置所或在別的地方所以怎麼樣把人口做最好的清查知道他人在哪裡到時候有狀況怎麼樣把他撤離出來才不會找不到人"},{"start":18821.283,"end":18835.729,"text":"那這樣會對於那個有效的這個做疏散撤離計畫會打折好所以我想雖然我們不是花蓮鄉親但是我們對花蓮鄉親的關心是沒有分彼此的報告委員我們現在跟花蓮縣政府一樣都是為期一級開設是這個一級開設其實每一天滾動進來的數據的我們都會做判斷所以才會有前進指揮所陸陸續續有市長跟這個政務委員都在現場幫忙"},{"start":18850.274,"end":18876.145,"text":"我想很多跨部會應該處理的部分我想行政院都非常盡力在幫忙處理一快不一慢啦就像我那天總執軍的時候特別提到是說後續的這個所謂的重建計畫等等的也希望能夠有政委來做一個調和不管是農業部不管是內政部相關部會都一起來做我還是再次強調就是說雖然花蓮我們並不是花蓮的鄉親但是花蓮在這一次的受災我們全國都感同身受"},{"start":18876.55,"end":18885.704,"text":"也因此特別用這個機會來跟您就教未來我們還持續追蹤也請內政部把握這樣子一個專業的精神勇於認識謝謝謝謝謝謝洪文凱委員"},{"start":18892.779,"end":18915.576,"text":"接下来我们林楚英委员林楚英委员林楚英委员不在是翁晓琳翁晓琳委员翁晓琳委员翁晓琳委员不在接下来是郑振成委员郑振成委员郑振成委员不在苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在"},{"start":18916.657,"end":18926.687,"text":"葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在陳寅委員陳寅委員陳寅委員不在現在是吳麗華委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委內政部長主委跟部長"},{"start":18947.207,"end":18950.35,"text":"主委好部長好我今天來是幫我們馬太安的居民來去做一個陳情請命為什麼呢因為大概昨天晚間11點左右花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長他有在他的臉書"},{"start":18965.405,"end":18982.284,"text":"有發文請大家支持這一次畫家殺風災記花蓮馬太安溪眼色虎潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法那麼一個多小時之後也就是凌晨一點多"},{"start":18983.605,"end":18987.771,"text":"馬太安那個地方的粉磚就發文強烈的來反對這個磚法特別是第六條那第六條是什麼我念給大家聽這個第六條呢"},{"start":18999.466,"end":19028.218,"text":"叫做政府得救災區安全堪於或違法濫建之土地經與原住居者諮商取得共識得劃定特定區域限制居住或限其強制遷居遷村且應與符合前項之適當安置這個文字呢跟16年前的莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣"},{"start":19028.798,"end":19034.379,"text":"一字不差那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的反彈你應該還記得吧主委"},{"start":19058.425,"end":19061.088,"text":"那不太曉得說為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到這個華家莎的這個特別的條例裡面但是我特別要提的就是"},{"start":19075.461,"end":19097.931,"text":"部落族人他們講了很久我們媒體也都看得到他們一直講四個字希望能夠中繼安置 中繼安置所以他們也有一點點納悶 他們說為什麼國民黨所提出的這個華紮莎的特別條例跟我們先前行政院"},{"start":19098.931,"end":19106.035,"text":"他提出的是就丹納斯G728的災後特別重建條例說要來做一個修訂那我是有解釋給他們聽我說這個丹納斯G728的特別條例他是增加了第四條就是馬太安溪顏色湖整治及災區復原其中有一個叫做受災民安置"},{"start":19126.545,"end":19131.166,"text":"那麼他們說那受災民安置沒有看到啊我們目前看到的安置措施是原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛那內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿租金補貼貸款利息補貼那他們就說沒有看到所以我在這邊請教一下部長您做一下確認這個受災民眾安置就是行政院的版本有沒有包括中繼安置"},{"start":19156.554,"end":19176.624,"text":"您回覆讓他們安心有包括我們現在在訪談裡面希望能夠做中繼屋大概就40戶左右當然是有包括在內那我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置我們應該都很了解其實守重就是尊重民意"},{"start":19177.624,"end":19197.043,"text":"這個非常重要如果跳過這個程序政府的美意就是為德不足人家也不會買單也不會高興所以我想這個部分我們來了解一下他們很擔心說我們一直喊中繼安置他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思我來說明一下簡單的來講"},{"start":19199.085,"end":19221.87,"text":"就是希望我們有一天我們要重建我們的家園但是我們不應該是分散我們不應該是一清不應該是臨時去住在旅社他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟我們的社會韌性我們應該在一起去討論我們未來家園要如何重建"},{"start":19222.43,"end":19235.401,"text":"因為這不是政府的事而已是我們大家的事所以他們很重視這種集體性跟社會韌性因此我舉個例子他們希望說要有一個大家的家可以在那邊討論會所"},{"start":19237.262,"end":19249.267,"text":"那當然他們也要有一個隱密性安心的一個居所可能是組合屋搭建甚至是考量到他們的民生需求也許一個組合屋他是雜貨店可以讓大家方便去買東西那其實"},{"start":19253.228,"end":19272.481,"text":"這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家像印尼菲律賓日本他們也都有這樣的措施像日本的那一次的這個熊本大地震他們這個照片可以看到大家的家"},{"start":19273.341,"end":19279.367,"text":"各別的臨時組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店其實都有這樣的一個安置的方法但是我們好像目前還沒有寄莫拉克之後這16年我們還沒有看到這樣的一個做法所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有"},{"start":19294.282,"end":19296.264,"text":"我們就是會在這一次行政院版本的修正的這個第四條裡面會去做這樣的一個處置那剛才部長您有回到我想大家都有聽到也都很安心但是我就想要再請教一下主委跟處長"},{"start":19309.494,"end":19323.781,"text":"因為很多莫拉克之後還有很多還沒有完成重建的你應該很清楚知道有的是水的重建道路的重建還很多因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了然後他也還沒做完以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到所以我要說的是以這次的丹納斯來講像山地門鄉的德文"},{"start":19335.646,"end":19335.766,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":19353.135,"end":19365.701,"text":"這個大赦這個部分也是放在這個丹阿斯條例裡面所以會一併來處理對不對那很好他們聽到了應該會很安心了那我現在最後就是要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉離災不離村這個是有共識的"},{"start":19368.742,"end":19384.931,"text":"在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的但是就是很希望說要有一個部落諮商同意的程序不能夠去違背原基法的精神政府無論怎麼定法或者做什麼樣的辦法我們都希望原民會"},{"start":19386.111,"end":19397.134,"text":"這個是你們要把關你們要提醒各部會因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地是不是也應該得到我們在地族人的一個共識對不對那我最後就是想要拜託一下內政部長"},{"start":19406.993,"end":19431.898,"text":"因為剛才我已經有聽到了你回答洪孟楷委員中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了我剛有聽到了那他們不要永久屋要中繼安置你們也都在行政院板有處理了那選擇部落認可的地點重建我相信現在應該大家都能夠去知道一定要去尊重族人但是我要特別講"},{"start":19434.058,"end":19460.169,"text":"這個莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次就丹納斯我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例但是需要做災後安置我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權"},{"start":19461.129,"end":19484.444,"text":"我們是認為不需要應該是回歸到國土計劃法裡面有國土富裕區他的用地取得補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定那如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論包括他劃定的條件遷居限制居住的條件那誰要參與其中他的程序是如何那部長這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計劃法裡面來重新的檢視一下"},{"start":19490.327,"end":19504.113,"text":"謝謝吳委員的關心但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲要6年以後才會繼續處理但是我們現在的部分我可以跟委員報告一下就是花蓮縣他有一個變更光復都市計畫的第4次通盤檢討裡面"},{"start":19505.914,"end":19515.08,"text":"那也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的這個變更但是到目前為止就是從110年到現在花蓮縣並沒有提到任何簽證的計劃給我們但是未來的狀況我剛有跟那個洪委員有這個"},{"start":19521.304,"end":19545.03,"text":"報告過第一個我們來委託一個這個都市計畫的一個大學團隊在短時間之內把這一次因為地形地貌變更包括有出現這個比較危險的區域趕快做一個變更那如果變更來得及的話包括您剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方當然我們現在為止是以台塘因為台塘現在的光復園區是沒有在這一次的這個艷澀湖的這個影響範圍內是比較安全的"},{"start":19548.271,"end":19570.747,"text":"也就是他可能不離鄉但是可不可以離村那這樣他們可不可以接受那如果不願意接受的話就要進入這個都市計畫的通盤檢討裡面做一個比較詳細的討論那這樣合法合規那如果經費需要支援的話就會在行政院現在所編列丹納斯之後的這個颱風我們總共編列了250億裡面做這個地方特別預算支出的需求"},{"start":19571.547,"end":19588.914,"text":"謝謝部長您這樣的回覆也讓我安心不少但是我還是要提醒屏東縣政府在上個禮拜也有提報一個計畫給我們園民會可能也有內政部那最主要就是因為像屏東仍舊有莫拉克之後的分水嶺 士文 德文"},{"start":19590.294,"end":19610.807,"text":"他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府"},{"start":19611.247,"end":19628.857,"text":"有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":19639.289,"end":19643.05,"text":"謝謝吳祐厚委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員好謝謝昭偉破例給我三分鐘那我是不是請我們內政部部長請部長"},{"start":19666.169,"end":19667.77,"text":"部長我們經歷了從7月丹納斯728的強降雨到後來花蓮的這一次的災害事實上我們看到了很多居民在避難在做防災避難的時候"},{"start":19683.277,"end":19701.634,"text":"空間的不足那空間的不足主要就是說因為村民如果要緊急避難的話最好的地方就是那個枕頭要有一個防災避難所或者是他有很多震災的物品必須要放在一個空間這最好的就是村裡辦公室是的"},{"start":19701.894,"end":19717.568,"text":"但是我們知道有很多村民辦公室真的是老化老化到 第一 你在那個空間你就覺得它的味道就是已經很老的房子味道也不好再來 沒有空調你知道如果真的有居民我們地方在水災的時候有的大人去那個村裡"},{"start":19720.811,"end":19725.593,"text":"那個活動中心那時候好熱欸 熱到沒有空調叫他在那邊睡一晚 睡好幾晚真的痛苦到村長要穿冷氣 冷氣之後要去載冰鋼來不是 穿電風 電風之後要載冰鋼用電風打冷氣吹給那些老人家在那邊他才有辦法有一個空間所以事實上呈現出來就是說"},{"start":19748.464,"end":19770.915,"text":"我們村裡這個防災避難的空間不是沒有就是老化因為有很多是特別的空間所以我們看到這一次我們的特別預算在編列的時候我本來我就漏掉了這一項事實上特別預算對於鄉鎮村裡活動中心的防災準備空間是沒有編列這樣的預算這個我覺得好可惜這個應該要編列的"},{"start":19775.917,"end":19803.986,"text":"我們有把它編在任性條例裡面國土安全任性條例裡面有編列進去預算裡面不知道有沒有防救災緊急衛生物資整備編列15億8520就是這一次在中央的這個國土安全任性計畫條例裡面把它放進去預算如果有的話我認為這是真的是需要的然後第二個就是說因為過去我們內政部對於村裡這樣的一個集會所它的補助上限就是400萬"},{"start":19805.53,"end":19832.715,"text":"就四百萬而且這個已經將近二三十年來沒有調整過那四百萬是什麼概念我們知道你現在要蓋一個適當的空間那兩層樓兩層樓的話都超過差不多三千萬所以縱使中央這個中央如果補助四百萬剩下的讓地方去找錢真的是很難但地方也是會多少出一點錢但是中央如果核定上限是四百萬的話"},{"start":19833.655,"end":19860.898,"text":"基本上你要在城頭然後來興建這樣的一個防災避難或者是村裡的集會所事實上它就是多功能的一個概念這個錢是不足的所以我們想說我們現在整個因為我們現在整個防災要有更新的思維然後村民的一個避難空間必須要有是要有足夠的空間這個預算是不足的是完全不足我們今天8月的時候前瞻預算已經全部用完了"},{"start":19861.42,"end":19886.602,"text":"是所以不夠所以對剛剛委員所提到的部分第一個我們是不是依照鄉鎮因為你一定要有主要的一個避難中心那避難中心不一定是村裡辦公室通常都是活動中心或者是國小國中這些那我們會在所謂的國土的維生物資整備上面包括您剛剛所提到不是冷氣機是緊急發電機或是緊急要用的電源"},{"start":19887.383,"end":19913.72,"text":"那按照我們的防災協作中心的方式來做大量的配備好那這樣子的部分呢會比較好比如說現在再去找經費把所有的村裡集會活動所全部再重新修繕這可能會曠日廢時我們現在就是先準備一下現在如果有必須要這個疏散或是收容的時候呢怎麼樣把裡面的設備設施把它加強跟補強甚至呢它有物資有集放的地方比較安全的地方"},{"start":19914.881,"end":19940.822,"text":"譬如說我剛才說的緊急發電機或者是有什麼柴油的部分或者是緊急的濾水設備因為如果你要到收容安置的地方第一個只是做維生而已啦你不可能說從那吃喝玩樂都很好部長當然沒有要到所謂但是我要跟部長說有水有電有的吃有的睡但是我要跟部長說因為很多老人家他們如果是淹水的話你要叫他移動到"},{"start":19941.902,"end":19944.544,"text":"鄉鎮可能設備雖然比較好可是他就是不想離開他們會寧可會在村裡村裡的一個集會所這個我知道因為你要這樣的話再跨出那個增淘如果當然如果這次花蓮的狀況另當別論嘛那是強制撤離"},{"start":19957.774,"end":19963.058,"text":"但是有的時候是因處因罪然後我們就說你離開你的家裡到村來的一個安置空間可是這個安置空間的環境是不足的所以我才會藉由這個村裡的這個如果要興建一個村裡的適當的集會所預算不足這件事情想要跟部長討論說能不能用這個機會來做整體的一個考量"},{"start":19982.092,"end":19995.261,"text":"報告委員我們現在的錢真的8月用完了看可不可以在財政收支劃分法裡面請地方政府多擔待一點我們真的是講我們實際上的狀況沒有關係我是覺得這個可以來檢討防災協助中心的話基本上我們的設計是以每個村裡辦公室來處理包括未來如果防災所需要的替代役的人力我們的規劃大概是每個地方希望能夠有20到50個人來協助做疏散撤離"},{"start":20010.211,"end":20027.494,"text":"就是協助做收容安置的人力上面的需求大概基本上是我們這方面但是硬體設備都村裡辦公室全部做修繕這個對我們民政單位來講民政司來講這個預算量太大我們沒有辦法在這個地方跟委員說我們一定能夠爭取得到好 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謝謝"},{"start":39.365,"end":41.928,"text":"請主任秘書報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":55.253,"end":79.776,"text":"立法院第十一屆第四會期財政委員會第一次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國114年10月1日星期三9時13分至9時16分地點群雄樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林思明委員等14人主席郭文國報告事項一本院秘書長韓衛第十一屆第四會期本院各委員會召集委員選舉相關事宜"},{"start":80.776,"end":106.412,"text":"業經本院人事處提報本院第十一屆第四會及第一次會議決定 照案通過再案二 宣讀本會及本會召集委員選舉而明冊選舉事項 選舉立法院第十一屆第四會及本會召集委員一 立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第五及第八條召集委員之選舉吳京明單計法票選之但經各黨團之書面同意亦得推選方式行之"},{"start":107.112,"end":124.055,"text":"主席宣告推選林委員施民及李委員昆成為立法院第十一屆第四會及財政委員會召集委員宣讀完畢請問各位委員對上次議事錄有異議議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":125.492,"end":147.032,"text":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金融率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司監管相關機構有關制裁團法人台灣證券交易所股份有限公司台灣期貨交易所股份有限公司台灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長總經理列席業務報告並被質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":149.966,"end":176.317,"text":"那我先介紹現在在場的出席的委員吳秉瑞委員林德福委員接著我來介紹與會的政府官員經委會主委彭金榮主委金融市場發展及創新處處長胡哲華"},{"start":180.467,"end":190.814,"text":"綜合規劃處處長 林希聖法律事務處處長 林志憲國際業務處處長 賴明賢資訊服務處處長 林玉泰秘書室主任 江俊德人事室主任 孫成錦"},{"start":210.083,"end":234.311,"text":"主計事主任簡鳳琴政風事主任趙立金銀行局局長童振章證券期貨局局長張振山保險局局長王立慧檢察局局長賴新國"},{"start":238.431,"end":266.149,"text":"中央存管保險股份有限公司總經理鄭明慧台灣證券交易所股份有限公司董事長林修銘總經理李愛玲台灣期貨交易所股份有限公司董事長吳志興總經理周建榮台灣集中保管結算所股份有限公司董事長林秉輝"},{"start":269.18,"end":292.348,"text":"總經理陳德湘財團法人中華民國證券櫃台買賣中心董事長簡立中總經理陳立青財團法人證券投資人及期貨交易人保護中心董事長張新替總經理林俊宏"},{"start":295.124,"end":321.843,"text":"財團法人 中華民國證券暨期貨市場發展基金會總經理 張立真財團法人 聯合信用卡處理中心董事長 桂仙農總經理 林棟良財團法人 金融聯合徵信中心總經理 張國明財團法人 台灣金融研訓院院長 高一純"},{"start":325.61,"end":349.857,"text":"財團法人汽車交通事故特別補償基金總經理陳在懷財團法人住宅地震保險基金代理董事長張嘉琳代理總經理辛進賢財團法人保險安定基金董事長石百達總經理陳昌正"},{"start":353.82,"end":366.464,"text":"財政法人保險事業發展中心董事長黃洪志總經理詹芳舒財政法人金融消費評議中心董事長杜怡靜總經理羅俊偉"},{"start":375.973,"end":403.71,"text":"今日議程安排邀請金融監督管理委員會列席業務報告現在請金管會彭主委進行業務報告主席各位委員各位同仁以及在場的媒體朋友大家早安今天陳貴委員會邀請提出報告自感榮幸以下緊究國內金融概況及重要工作事項提出報告"},{"start":404.744,"end":423.589,"text":"有關國內金融概況部分金融業截至8月3月的稅前盈餘為6000餘億元比去年同期減少2000餘億元主要受新台幣升值及投資利益減少所致本國銀行資本市足率為15.65%餘放比例為0.16受信品質良好"},{"start":424.449,"end":432.832,"text":"證券市場截至114年9月底上市櫃總加數為1900餘家總市值約為90兆元較去年同期成長3.08及16.24%基本面穩健保險業資產總額為36兆9千餘億元較去年同期增加1284億持續穩健成長"},{"start":445.057,"end":466.396,"text":"重點工作事項部分一強化金融業資本韌性及風險管理實施新一代清償能力保險業實施新一代清償能力以陸續發布四階段在地化過渡措施並以預告修正保險業資本氏族管理辦法近期將配合訂定發布保險業自有資本及風險資本之計算方法說明二推動"},{"start":467.637,"end":488.003,"text":"IFR-17接軌協助保險業因應近期國際金融情勢產生市場波動實施相關暫停措施以協助業者得以順利實施IFR-17及新一代清償能力制度另外協助受險業更允當表達匯率波動對其財務制影響及更符合其長期經營特性將研議保險業匯率風險財務會計允當表達之可行方式"},{"start":492.133,"end":509.671,"text":"今年並已請本國銀行舉辦監理壓力測試結果顯示具備一定風險承擔能力辦理金融資安攻防演練自六月起陸續辦理金融機構DDoS攻防演練及網路攻防演練等二 健全金融市場發展部分"},{"start":510.572,"end":525.022,"text":"修正證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法並於7月16號總統公告實施規劃推動亞洲創新投資平台由交易所及櫃買中心分別聚焦12個前瞻新經濟產業及5個重點特色產業"},{"start":527.344,"end":546.688,"text":"建立具國際競爭力的上市櫃制度以吸引國內外企業在台籌資掛牌推動股市價值提升計畫持續鼓勵信託業務發展引導保險業資金投資國內與國發會財政部等部會研商增加公建相關案源並鬆綁法規加大投資誘因研議保險業投資創投事業於一定額度內適用較低風險係數三 落實消費者權益保護與普惠金融"},{"start":555.73,"end":577.867,"text":"修正保險法部分條文明定保險契約之解約金債權豁免強制執行之類型及介入權制度6月18號經總統公布實施令強化融資租賃業消費者保護措施於6月完成金融消費消費者保護法這相關執法首階段納管13家業者已於9月15日生效落實金融業"},{"start":579.755,"end":596.176,"text":"公平代課原則擴大危險保險保障範圍並督導銀行工會辦理金融科技打詐高峰會及成立防範金融詐騙委員會增進公司部門跨域合作並進行跨部會合作打擊詐騙共同強化打詐措施"},{"start":597.321,"end":621.906,"text":"公布我國普惠金融衡量指標完善我國普惠金融指標體系四 推動亞洲資產管理中心設立亞洲資產管理中心高雄事辦專區目前已有17家銀行4家保險業9家投信股及3家證券商進駐二 辦理台灣州活動參著日本州的做法以台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心為主軸由本會協同"},{"start":623.226,"end":648.894,"text":"政交所等相關周邊單位共同規劃於10月15日至10月23日舉辦台灣周以其藉此強化引資與宣傳效果三 推動具台灣特色TESA帳戶第一階段由吉保建立國人的TESA管理專戶於6月30日上線第二階段持續相關部會延伸租稅及其他誘因增加TESA普及率及參與率完成台日"},{"start":650.083,"end":664.373,"text":"ETF相互掛牌及開放主動式多資產ETF台日ETF已於9月18日相互掛牌完成令截至8月底已有8檔主動式ETF掛牌1檔被動式平衡ETF掛牌上櫃資產規模分別為約500億元及14.4億元"},{"start":670.103,"end":687.29,"text":"鼓勵國外資產管理中心設立區域中心目前有聯伯、安聯、謹順、摩根、貝萊德、富達、漢陽等7家外資投信集團已決定設置區域中心延長國際保險業務分公司OIU租會優惠年限及開放OIU保險商品"},{"start":687.99,"end":697.023,"text":"引導鼓勵保險業資金辦理公共及社會福利事業放寬保險業對公建社福事業專案投資等領域投資限額從現行保險業資金比重的10%提高到15%"},{"start":703.708,"end":721.753,"text":"並成立推動辦公室及諮詢平台並配置專職人員運作提供常態性對參與者之整合式諮詢服務並成立金融發展及雅致中心策進會及國際四大會議事務所諮詢平台定期分享國際趨勢、實務觀察及業者意見交流"},{"start":724.514,"end":752.787,"text":"截至114年8月底金融資產管理規模已達34.4兆較計畫推動前增加約2.8兆5 加速金融科技創新與發展嚴定虛擬資產服務法及穩定並草案及推動開放穩定幣發行專法草案已於6月27日呈報行政院審議該草案包括穩定幣發行及管理章令虛擬資產保管業務主題式業務事辦目前已有4家銀行獲准事辦"},{"start":753.988,"end":775.166,"text":"另外 已於114年7月發布保險業設立許可及管理辦法實施向法規開放申請設立數位保險公司推動RWA代幣化計畫持續進行中發布數位金融服務包容性指引鬆綁保險業辦理電子商務相關規範普惠金融 金融科技主題式推廣活動"},{"start":776.167,"end":780.396,"text":"精進金融科技發展獎補助措施督導規劃2025台北金融科技論壇"},{"start":785.629,"end":809.206,"text":"六 落實永續金融驅動低碳轉型持續推動永續經濟活動參考指引目前以今年6月至8月已辦理18場宣導活動並收集意見持續精進指引內容持續辦理永續金融評鑑第三屆評鑑將擴大受評對象將新興永續發展政策及外界關注議題納入新評鑑指標"},{"start":812.032,"end":826.708,"text":"協助企業接軌IFRS永續揭露準則本會持續督導專案小組協助企業順利接軌並預計114年底完成年報編制準則相關法規五 推動永續綠色金融商品"},{"start":828.795,"end":849.792,"text":"結與為建立安全與發展並進的新金融市場本會將依循本報告所提六大重要市政面向持續強化金融韌性健全金融市場發展保護消費者權益打造具台灣特色之亞洲資產管理中心推動金融科技發展透過綠色及轉型金融行動方案等引導及帶動產業永續轉型發展以上報告"},{"start":854.176,"end":882.558,"text":"上席委員提供寶貴建議及指導並祝各位委員身體健康 萬事如意 謝謝好 我們謝謝彭主委的報告現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告每位初席委員發言時間8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘每位列席委員發言時間5分鐘今日上午10點截止發言登記現在依登記順序請登記第一位林德福委員質詢"},{"start":897.777,"end":910.656,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請彭主委 軍管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委委員長主委 里長主委 我請教因為中國稀土限制出口"},{"start":911.938,"end":933.784,"text":"整個美中的貿易戰升溫上週美股大雪崩我請問主委穩健的台股面對整個國際局勢的動盪是不是因為技術面的大跌衝擊影響到台股基本面的發展會不會是因為這樣子"},{"start":935.12,"end":956.974,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是台股在過去的表現確實是相對是穩健我想從10月10號這個消息那個出來以後因為我們遇到廉價嘛沒有反應因為我剛剛也看了一下今天剛剛在我上台為止大概我們現在下跌的幅度呢跟美國來講確實收斂了那個不少我想"},{"start":958.015,"end":974.37,"text":"面對關稅的議題從4月開始到現在整個產業應該有經歷過很多很多的這樣消息面也好基本面的變化我想投資人面對這樣的消息的這些的消化以及解讀能力已經開始有一定的這樣的判讀能力"},{"start":974.75,"end":1003.188,"text":"那個主委啊畢竟上市櫃會因為股市是增花的市值而影響到根本的整個財務的一個操作那這個主委因為國安基金委員會召開第三季例行的會議啊考量整個市場仍存在不確定的因素決議啊繼續來執行安定市場的任務那我請問主委你認為美中貿易戰是不是"},{"start":1005.582,"end":1030.843,"text":"這個國安基金進退場執行安定任務的一個條件18號委員我想這個國安基金是因為財政部在處理我不方便評論我只是說剛剛委員提到這個美中兩個經濟體是世界上非常非常大的經濟體他們的任何的動作都影響到全球的這個所有的資本市場我想這部分我們儘管會密切的注意像這樣的情勢的發展"},{"start":1031.644,"end":1059.179,"text":"那個主委國安基金委員會表示認為台美對等關稅談判及232條款調查結果尚未定案後續效應需審慎因應不及現在就退場那我請問主委如果談判時時程拉長那後續效應引發全球貿易戰那是不是代表國安基金安定市場的任務可能會持續的延長你認為呢"},{"start":1060.8,"end":1082.266,"text":"是 剛剛國安基金因為他有他自己的目的啦我剛剛跟委員報告了就是他的他的主政單位財政部但是我們儘管會在對於市場制度我們是期待這個制度能夠回歸到市場機制我們充分的揭露資訊在制度上穩健的建立相關的遊戲規則我想當然市場上會有很多消息面以及這些所謂的國際這些"},{"start":1085.647,"end":1100.339,"text":"這個經貿之間的增值所產生的一些的影響我想我們資本市場就是充分的反映所有的資訊我們建立一個完善的制度給投資人來進行這樣的一個運作本主委我請教這個"},{"start":1103.055,"end":1120.671,"text":"你曾說今年股市主要變數包括川普上任影響整個國際金融市場甚大那多項變數包括美國聯準會的利率政策以及對股匯市都有影響那金管會都會關注"},{"start":1122.045,"end":1150.087,"text":"主委那台股由於今年四月是最低點的時候是一萬七千多點到現在台股大盤已經上漲到兩萬七千多點整整六個月上漲了一萬點那我請問主委面對川普關稅戰的不確定性台股大盤卻反應上漲你認為這樣的台股大盤發展是正常還是異常呢"},{"start":1150.734,"end":1169.23,"text":"其實我覺得全球的經濟環境都在做很大很大的變化我想剛才委員提到就是說台股在創歷史新高的過程當中其實我們看我們全球的主要國家的股市其實不是只有台灣我想全球的整個經濟環境做很大的變更"},{"start":1170.171,"end":1190.413,"text":"那跟以前比如說可能10年20年前不太一樣剛剛委員也提到就是確實像美國的這些的關稅政策關稅那個衝擊都很大尤其那個一般傳產業啊還有像美元的那個利率它的走向還有這些地緣政治都是影響台灣資本市場非常重要因素目前應該還是"},{"start":1191.978,"end":1213.292,"text":"這樣喔 主委你說未來一年全球的經濟情勢都有大波動在不確定性成為常態之下金管會將對整個資本市場保持高度的關注那我請問主委金管會對目前整個資本市場的發展以及未來投資和運作你認為應該是積極樂觀還是保守樂觀甚至於還是應該要居高思維你的論點呢"},{"start":1220.576,"end":1240.227,"text":"跟委員報告我想在過去我在這裡回答委員的那個詢問的時候我都再三的強調儘管會不會對未來的股市做任何的預期但是呢我們相信所有的股市最終還是回落到基本面那我們從這個因素來看的話"},{"start":1241.107,"end":1269.617,"text":"台灣的產業整個的營收也好獲利的數字也好今年確實是表現的相對的是比較優異我想有基本面的支撐是最重要的我想最終不管消息面一些因素最終還是要反映基本的基本面我知道要不要居高思維因為講實在話很多那些傳產業甚至於現在很多人失業像這些都是未來會變成社會問題"},{"start":1271.595,"end":1298.033,"text":"那你像這個關稅的不確定性衝擊那些產業尤其傳產真的很嚴重對就是在這一方面我們在做金融支持的部分其實我們還是持續的在做當然整個關稅影響到的不是只是金融市場我想整個影響包括我們的進出口都會受到這些影響我只是說我們各司其職我們在金融業的部分有關資本市場以及我們金融支持的部分我們會持續來努力"},{"start":1298.72,"end":1318.656,"text":"那個 主委啊 我再請教 因為八月底時這個公股銀行2025年上半年海外獲利統計出爐八大公股這個海外獲利這個合計佔比維持在差不多兩成以上其中又以兆豐銀行接近三成最高"},{"start":1319.437,"end":1335.308,"text":"那主委銀行竟然有相當比例海外獲利的占比那為什麼最近公股銀行持續傳出要診病或裁測的消息我想這一點本席不大了解請主委你來做說明"},{"start":1335.788,"end":1357.594,"text":"我想因為公股當然是因為這部分站在我們金融經營的立場我們是尊重公司治理他們自己我們過去確實我們有看到五家公股裁測了12個海外的據點然後主要的地方也是集中在一些地方我想他們自己經由的經營的考量那有些是因為他們確實在業務上面已經做了一些調整我想在"},{"start":1358.474,"end":1374.659,"text":"過去我們是會去了解希望他們還是兼顧到一些比如說有一些我們的客戶的一些的需求但是呢最後他們也都做出這樣的決定我們是表示尊重不過我們還是會關切是否有這樣他們這樣裁測是否適當"},{"start":1375.379,"end":1394.998,"text":"主委啊 就以您專業的立場 供股行庫整併或裁測除了營運獲利考量外 是不是也有政策目的考量的成分那你認為近期像川普經貿關稅這些政策是不是也是國內供股行庫海外據點發生變化的一個原因呢"},{"start":1395.478,"end":1423.556,"text":"我想這原因非常的複雜因為就是說比如說我們在就以國內的金融機構設立分支機構為例他也是過去曾經有一段是高峰期大家都希望來設分行但是隨著我們的經營型態已經客戶需求以及客戶行為的改變他也要做這個調整相對的隨著國際市場的改變那實際上這個他們在做這些調整我們是覺得只要是符合他們公司自己程序以及他們業務上的考量我覺得我們都會尊重"},{"start":1424.456,"end":1443.005,"text":"主委 按照公股銀行海外據點 似乎有加速來整併的狀況且根據各銀行的說法 策點主要包括政局不穩 營運成本高資源配置效率低 以及數位化趨勢的改變"},{"start":1444.345,"end":1460.236,"text":"這些金融的服務模式那我請問主委公股銀行海外據點加速整併是不是代表台灣我們的政府啊對新南向政策計畫也必須做出相當程度的調整你認為呢"},{"start":1461.156,"end":1484.491,"text":"其實本來事業經營就要保持高度的靈活性以及適應環境的改變像比如這次我們有看到有些光谷測他是測在某些特定地區因為他的整個整個的經營環境已經做了改變那我想這部分或是他商機已經不在或是因為其他比如說的因素不穩定的時候他可能就會測走我想這個大概是經營商業上也是要保有一定的彈性"},{"start":1485.892,"end":1500.88,"text":"這個其實我們也可以看到我們這個國營在海外的這樣那個擴張確實在最近幾年已經展現它的成效陳儒剛才指示就是說他們現在獲利海外獲利越高也成為很重要的獲利的引擎"},{"start":1501.3,"end":1516.759,"text":"那個主委又或者參與新南向政策的台商早已經出現投資板塊的移動所以說公股銀行才決定部分新南向國家這些海外據點整併或撤離是不是有這樣的考量"},{"start":1517.119,"end":1538.579,"text":"其實我們看到其實看國營這個動向不應該只看公股其他我覺得很多我們是整個民營行因為畢竟我們的客戶不是只有公股在服務但是呢我們也看到我們的銀行其實也保持非常靈活的這樣的一個做法其實我們站在一個金融監理呢我們是希望他們做好自己的風險評估以及他們公司治理能夠完備那這部分我們都尊重他們的經營"},{"start":1539.079,"end":1557.722,"text":"好最後一點我請問主委相較之下未來公股銀行如果追隨台積電海外佈局腳步積極你認為前進日跟美的市場新東向有沒有可能促成公股銀行設置海外據點的另一波熱潮會不會"},{"start":1558.396,"end":1576.153,"text":"其實我覺得我們的公股在過去契金的部分本來就是它的強項跟隨客戶本來就是他們現在很重要的一個策略的思考我想這部分還是一樣剛剛講說他們會有自己的判斷尊重他們以及發揮他們優勢來進行他業務的拓展好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 我們謝謝林委員接下來我們請吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":1593.467,"end":1619.133,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會彭主委我們請彭主委委員長主委早剛剛你提到說這兩天國際的變化使得美中的對抗好像有深分的疑慮結果衍生出虛擬貨幣爆倉的事件而且那個爆倉的金額非常的大這個你有什麼看法"},{"start":1619.827,"end":1644.81,"text":"我想虛擬資產在一開始出現的時候這個就是他非常重要的一個特質波動大這也是後來大家提到穩定幣為什麼出來很重要的原因我想這一次的這些的這個波動這麼大確實是還有就是主要剛才講的爆倉主要是他們做槓桿交易槓桿交易的話這是跌20%假如做4倍的話基本上就全部出場"},{"start":1645.951,"end":1675.325,"text":"我想這裡提醒就是說反而虛擬資產就有這個特質這也是一個很好的我覺得整個的個案出來以後也讓我們體會到這個虛擬資產的交易它具有的不確定性跟風險性你的報告裡面關於這一塊有提到說你們現在正在研議而且向行政院已經提出你們的草案我在這個地方我的想法要跟你分享這件事情要穩健要很注意穩健"},{"start":1676.767,"end":1701.255,"text":"我們的台灣人的民族性賺錢都說自己很行萬一集體賠錢就會找你算帳都算政府的帳你一定要切記我這個講法我以富油價這件事件為例富油價就是他們去玩期貨結果全部都出場對不對到好幾年去金管會門口在那邊抗議了很久"},{"start":1703.052,"end":1729.201,"text":"你的石油期貨國內基本上這個是一個很冷門的東西那我以那個事件為例然後不論對錯就再一次印證我這個講法賺錢的人都覺得自己很行不是去感謝別人那但是如果賠了錢而且是集體賠了錢他要找你政府算帳說是你政府害的所以你那個版本你現在可不可以先透露一下你的"},{"start":1731.553,"end":1748.073,"text":"這個穩健的部分要如何來防止這種事情謝謝委員其實委員剛剛提醒這也是就是因為它是一個具有不確定跟風險的這樣的一個工具或是這樣的市場所以我們更要透過一個專法的架構來做這樣的一個保護我們的投資人"},{"start":1748.934,"end":1778.472,"text":"因為主要是剛才講這是一個全球不是只有台灣在那個虛擬資產的世界是沒有國界的但是呢我們可以透過一些行政的這樣的一個措施所以透過這個專法我們可以跟我們實體的監理做連結那對於這些在境內交易的這些民眾當然已經在你有跨境能力交易我們是沒有辦法在這邊做做這樣比較全面的管理但是至少這一部分呢我們反而是就是因為這樣我們更應該要有這樣的一個做法"},{"start":1779.485,"end":1798.065,"text":"那跟穩定幣的做法會不一樣嗎穩定幣其實跟虛擬資產又是另外一個區塊所以我們是因為就以美國來講它的穩定幣背後要有相等價的美金或是美國公債才可以做發行所以是一比一的但是台灣有需要發行嗎"},{"start":1799.113,"end":1816.45,"text":"其實這是一個很有趣的議題有不同的角度思考當然就以假設國際貨幣清算的角度來看的話其實台幣不是一個國際上面的通用的主流貨幣我想這個當然在這一部分還是以美元或是其他的強勢貨幣為主"},{"start":1818.772,"end":1842.35,"text":"但是如果他涉及到未來比如說很多人在推測說未來假設RWA成為是一個越來越普遍還有國內的支付的部分那這樣的話我們還是會有這樣的一個本國必別的穩定幣存在的空間那有一個說法說穩定幣通行之後因為就在網路上面很直接就處理了第一個銀行的角色不見了第二個"},{"start":1844.858,"end":1864.848,"text":"這個是不是以後要打砸的時候困難度會增加這兩個事情其實這一題兩面就是銀行就像假設銀行如果他固守於現在的傳統業務面對未來像這種虛擬金融或是數位金融的挑戰這確實是一個不可知的領域就像剛才講說假設我過去的這個現金做放款"},{"start":1865.168,"end":1891.876,"text":"那現在如果很多人把它做為一個穩定幣就是變成質押在那邊他在另外一個世界裡面是在用這個法幣的穩定幣在運作的時候確實在銀行如果你還是固守在原有的角色是沒有的但是剛剛文燁提到打詐的部分假設這個未來比如說這個穩定幣或這個虛擬資產在我們的管控範圍的範圍更大的話我們應該是對打詐應該是更有著力點是喔"},{"start":1895.028,"end":1915.656,"text":"這個全球的網路上面往來就支付了你你如果對於打詐會你覺得會反而有幫助因為比如說我們現在來講就像我們現在我們對現在虛擬資產服務業者我們禁止的所有的現金交易他就必須要透過我們的法幣帳戶進行交易那我們的KYC就會做到非常的清楚"},{"start":1915.976,"end":1941.596,"text":"那你剛剛提到的啊有一些人那就透過網路不經過台灣本身內部的一些他就直接跟國外交易了對這是全世界面臨到的問題這要透過國際合作這個確實是不是只有台灣所獨有在網路世界是沒有國界好那剛剛有提到這幾年因為台灣這個科技業的發展蓬勃發展那使得我們的證券交易市場規模不停的擴大現在已經是全世界"},{"start":1942.617,"end":1970.78,"text":"排名第幾了 第八了嘛已經急進前十了這以台灣的人口量來講是非常不容易那但是證券交易同時就是我們的資本市場也要穩定所以這一年來的IPO的這個狀況你有掌握嗎IPO的話我想主要是詳細的數字我可能沒辦法跟委員說明那個櫃買跟證交所同事長也來請那個櫃買跟交易所過去可以跟委員報告一下去年我們IPO的狀況"},{"start":1974.325,"end":1996.377,"text":"報告委員 我們今年的IPO的狀況基本上來講的話 交易所這邊創新版加上上市一般版的話大概40多家左右40多家 然後他的資本額是多少他的資本額 你很難 因為他難以統計創新版大概在兩三億"},{"start":1999.907,"end":2019.248,"text":"上市一般版大概是六七億啦資本額就是要上你們的市六億啊我的意思說這一些你說IPO有四十幾家在你們交易所嘛那他的資本額跟他的這個所謂的市值因為市值是每天浮動的但是資本額基本上是固定的這應該統計的出來啊"},{"start":2021.819,"end":2037.529,"text":"我這裡沒有好沒關係那你這時候再補啦那就是也是對我們的市場規模增加了不少40幾家相對於前幾年成績算是不錯啦我們預計今年會超過去年好那繼續加油但是這個其實是走鋼索"},{"start":2038.449,"end":2052.221,"text":"一方面要讓他上市但是另外一方面又要監管你也不能不讓市場規模擴大但是同時上市的時候那個標準的拿捏其實對你們來講是一個很艱難的工作要加油那前董事長在一邊呢各位委員報告我們去年有30家掛牌那今年已經有23家掛牌了"},{"start":2063.635,"end":2089.053,"text":"所以兩家加起來都跟前幾年比較好很多其實在以前財政部張部長的時代在馬政府執政 張部長用他證所稅的時代之前IPO曾經高達一年一百多家後來當然就是因為那個東西所以急劇就減少了所以我說要加油尤其是台灣的好公司希望留在台灣上市櫃不要讓他跑到外國去"},{"start":2090.774,"end":2102.962,"text":"有的會選擇去新加坡 選擇去香港這一次委員剛好我在報告的時候我們大概近期會對外宣布我們的亞洲創新投資平台我們就是打算做這件事好 那兩位董事長先請回座"},{"start":2104.054,"end":2128.239,"text":"這個最後在剩下一分鐘的時間就是問你問一個問題打炸是我們現在眼前很重要的一個問題但是打炸這個有警示帳戶會延伸管制的帳戶現在的反應就是說現在因為證券交易這麼的熱絡每天的交易這麼大那這些警示帳 延伸的管制帳戶因為你證券交易現在都是用線上交割嘛你不可能拿現金去嘛"},{"start":2128.999,"end":2156.722,"text":"那他要進他的帳戶要出他的帳戶都變成有困難那這一個反應金管會的看法是怎麼樣啊如何協助解決我想我已經提到就是應該是大概大概幾週前有一個他可能卡到他的那個就是畫布帳戶就是那個交割帳戶那這部分應該是後來我們了解可能是他那個城市所控的問題好那這個我們就很快改善我們也通知所有的銀行把這記取這個教訓不可以再犯"},{"start":2157.748,"end":2171,"text":"因為比一個例子我自己的帳戶我賣股票我錢要進去你說你把我鎖起來我約焦哥算誰的責任所以說現在他們在鎖空的時候我們要求他們必須要24小時專人服務的電話來負責解決這樣的問題"},{"start":2176.321,"end":2195.699,"text":"雖然打詐是政府非常重點而且很重要的工作但是我們在執行的過程中能夠減少對民眾的困擾也是一個重要的議題這個確實在比如說在主詐打詐跟比如說一些某一個比率誤判這樣產生的"},{"start":2197,"end":2209.211,"text":"民眾的不便這件事情我們盡量的我們也是請我們的銀行透過各式各樣的方法降低這樣我們一定要取得一個橫頻好 加油謝謝謝謝委員謝謝謝謝吳委員接下來我們請賴世保委員"},{"start":2227.539,"end":2232.402,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請滕主委我們請滕主委委員早您早那麼先請教就是因為現在有關於輝達要設海外總部在台北市這個北思科的T478用地的爭議那現在來看的話就是因為新售這裡面有一個"},{"start":2257.215,"end":2279.717,"text":"賴總統已經說話了就希望中央跟地方好好的合作怎麼樣讓非達一定留在台北市或者是台灣這個地方那我就請問你因為你們金管會的你的武器在哪裡你們有什麼武器可以幫這個事情搞定 有沒有"},{"start":2280.954,"end":2296.521,"text":"報告委員其實這個從所有的媒體包括到今天截止各位很清楚這是一個主要是授權公司跟台北市政府他們在做一個在一個地上權上面雙方合約上面的爭議"},{"start":2297.842,"end":2324.523,"text":"那我們這邊呢在金管會上面很明顯的就是他們是一個不動產投資是一個因為我們的那個所謂的這些的地上權在我們的那個不動產交易管理辦法裡面他是屬於所謂的樹地的投資所以我們是從這個角度他就是我們一般假設金管會的角度來看他就是我們不動產投資管理的範疇至於說現在契約上的爭議那是他們在契約上面他們應該按照契約的精神去解決"},{"start":2325.387,"end":2350.487,"text":"好 那我就請教你因為原來跟台北市政府簽約叫新售可是現在它已經被消滅掉了還沒幾乎是吧 怎麼沒有呢它現在新病了啊台新跟新光病了以後它是預計明年1月1號對 但是在10月底之前在10月底才能夠決定新售其實是不見了 怎麼會還有呢新售還有嗎"},{"start":2353.218,"end":2381.517,"text":"就是因為兩家合併看是他們採用哪種合併在法律上他們現在應該他送件過來選擇的消滅公司應該是星光人壽但是他們事後兩家是合併在一起那更名為星光人壽大概是我們送的文件是這樣呈現的結果他們送給你的是星光人壽要被併的"},{"start":2382.998,"end":2399.735,"text":"不是他病人家嘛而他是法律上面的消滅公司對嘛 就是消滅公司嘛所以等於說跟台北市政府簽約的新獸不見了在法律上他是因為就等於說他變成現在跟台新合併以後的新的新光人獸"},{"start":2401.249,"end":2414.981,"text":"是嘛 就是在星星啊星星金礦底下的星光人獸嘛應該這樣 所以主體是變的喔對 那如果他們合併完成確實這個主體已經法律上不是原來的兩家它就變成一家"},{"start":2415.796,"end":2420.041,"text":"我剛跟委員報告我們是金融監理機關我們關注的是金融監理的議題我剛才說過這兩部分一個是他們之間的契約"},{"start":2436.178,"end":2462.471,"text":"的糾紛 這我們過去呢我們主管機關絕對不會介入到契約的糾紛但是他今天是一個不動產投資我們有一套完整的不動產投資的規範他就必須要遵守好 那他現在來講跟因為原來的新售原來的新售跟台北市政府簽是五年的時間要開發不動產但現在到今年底就是四年了結果現在動都沒有動"},{"start":2464.248,"end":2473.078,"text":"這個情況是不是一定要等到五年後才台北市政府才可以跟他解約還是說現在來講的話已經看得到不可能一年蓋好了"},{"start":2474.107,"end":2498.565,"text":"我想這個問題應該去問他們雙方但是我們這邊我剛跟委員講說就是我們現在關注的是他這個不動產投資案是否符合我們不動產的相關的規範現在沒有符合因為現在的話我們的規範是非常的清楚就是說當我取得這樣一個過戶過來以後都審的時間不算接下來是五年的時間你必須要及時利用且有收益"},{"start":2500.868,"end":2525.295,"text":"現在四年過去了到今年年底就四年了其餘都沒有動我們都不動了另外他們跟台北市政府的合約是一個這個要把它區分清楚那是他們合約上面訂定的問題我們這裡是本來其實我們這種所謂的地上權的投資已經非常非常多了已經不是只有這個案子我想這個都非常普遍你們怎麼監管地上權的投資你們怎麼監管"},{"start":2527.236,"end":2554.585,"text":"沒有 我們就剛才講說我們現在對不動產投資這明顯在保險法146號之二裡面投資必須即時利用且有收益所以說我們現在來講假設你買一個標定你必須要立刻就有收益假設你買土地的話土地不可能立刻有收益所以我們在那個辦法你明定就是給五年但五年裡面有特別講清楚就是說你前面的都審這個問題不在你身上對不對所以這個可以扣除那接下來就是五年的時間"},{"start":2557.804,"end":2585.105,"text":"那現在來講他五年到明年算不算到明年到期還沒因為其實各位如果看那個時序我想他們各自都有說明就是我取得以後他送督審那督審以後那我就請教你現在來講他們雙方因為現在新售有軟化了因為在雨熱的壓力底下他希望提出一個叫合意的解約這樣的方向你樂不樂見"},{"start":2586.506,"end":2606.695,"text":"這個我剛才跟委員報告過其實我接下來我也會不斷的說這是他們雙方之間的協議其實我們在一個金融監理機關我們是制度的建立者我們是管的是受險公司他的不動產投資所以等於說你在這個地方沒有任何阻力點他們合約的問題我們當然不會介入"},{"start":2609.787,"end":2628.393,"text":"簡單來講就是賴總統說要中央幫忙沒辦法可以幫忙中央有很多的部會中央有很多的部會我們在是個金融監理其實中央有非常非常多的部會不是只有金管會所以金管會沒有辦法我們是尊重我們這個體制尊重我們的監理的職權百花粉講就是你們是沒辦法幫"},{"start":2630.013,"end":2638.937,"text":"我們來看那個股市這個巨幅震盪今天本來說要這個外面都說今天要跌1000點以上事實上沒有了跌了400多1500點可是我的重點不是這裡我的重點在於說已經漲到27000可是你注意看股我們1800將近1800點的股票幾乎三分之二以上都沒有漲沒什麼漲都是跟AI相關的類股才有漲"},{"start":2660.125,"end":2669.208,"text":"這個到地的台灣就變成荷蘭病了經濟荷蘭病了就只有某個產業很好其他產業都不太好其他傳統產業五星價的人越來越多到上萬人了因為受到關稅的影響等等的這個你怎麼看這個事情你覺得AI相關股會不會泡沫啊"},{"start":2684.569,"end":2709.008,"text":"根本不知道我真的不是這方面的專業但是我也因為很多人提醒這樣我們在對金融市場的特別資本市場監理我也自己也開始去理解這個問題結果來發現就是說實際上這個AI這樣的一個所謂的商機不是只有台灣是全世界都在看好這件事情我也很多種說法我不會去做預測我只是說台灣在過去確實在"},{"start":2710.509,"end":2725.832,"text":"比如說我們過去從一萬多點漲到兩萬多點確實是集中在某一些產業這跟我們進出口的這也是高度的一致這也是為什麼說因為他整個基本因為時間到你就簡單講好不好台灣有沒有得到你從你股市監理的角度看台灣有沒有得到經濟荷蘭病的"},{"start":2734.375,"end":2757.055,"text":"這種現象有沒有其實我覺得非常多元有人從過去的歷史來看就是說好像是這樣但有人說其實他去分析國外的股票也是就是你賺錢的公司未來前景好他的股價持續漲另外但是你沒有前景的那股價就平均所以你的意思就是所以你的意思就是除了AI以外都不太會漲也不太賺錢所以都不漲"},{"start":2758.697,"end":2772.782,"text":"不是 不是就說大家對他的預期就說其他不是只有台灣股市是這樣就像比如說有人說2008年就齊漲齊跌不管好壞都漲多跌那個反而是一個奇怪但是有時候他假設我們市場越來越精準"},{"start":2773.72,"end":2781.786,"text":"我們投資人越來越聰明所以其實現在的情況在過去歷史上不見得能夠找得到我請教最後一個問題金管會有沒有能力查案網因為在10月7號台灣的複雜投信"},{"start":2793.954,"end":2814.748,"text":"215萬筆的客戶資料 按網售328 USDT 就是美金啦這麼便宜 一點多 萬分之一點多你們有沒有能力差這個事情因為投信投股很多都有投資人的個資他們這樣外洩 你們怎麼看"},{"start":2816.072,"end":2834.043,"text":"其實我想這個對所有的政府機關或是這些查緝單位都是一個重點我必須坦白跟各位跟委員報告我們經管會組織結構大家都非常透明我們只有一個知福處我們待會可以我們我們的專家這個是我們的志工專家我可以請我知福處來回答這個問題好 謝謝 處長"},{"start":2838.025,"end":2855.232,"text":"公務員報告 金管會有請財經公司成立金融資安資訊分量中心那他們目前有一個機制會定期去收集案碗上面相關的資訊有在收集嗎有 目前有定期在看就是要確保投信投顧的相關投資戶的個資"},{"start":2858.054,"end":2885.853,"text":"對 如果是案碗上面涉及金融機構的部分我們會有一個定期蒐集的機制如果有發現的話會通過金融機構來確認最近這一筆啊 你怎麼處理最近這一筆怎麼處理這一筆是不是我們再回去確認一下是不是在之前曾經處理過10月7號目前沒有看到這一筆我們事後再回回報告好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":2897.294,"end":2900.103,"text":"主席 麻煩請彭主委我們請彭主委委員好"},{"start":2904.884,"end":2929.981,"text":"主委好 那個明年就要接軌F17那有關於這一個新的這個債務清場的能力也要一同面對那最近常常聽到我們金港會對於整個監理寬容的這個相關的政策的一個訊息的一個釋放聽起來是有寬有鬆有寬有窄 有緊有鬆那標準我是不曉得在哪裡"},{"start":2931.742,"end":2946.851,"text":"寬容的尺度之間要如何拿捏因為畢竟對向上每一個財務能力健全度不一嘛你如果包山包海你可能就會變成過度寬容對不對你如果區域嚴格的話那恐怕你要面對的問題就會更多"},{"start":2948.832,"end":2963.992,"text":"那要如何再透過這種方式來分級管理又不違反原則的情況底下我覺得現階段最重要關鍵我看起來如果就極端值來看的話現在普遍看到就是上山美邦的這個資本失足率長期來累積起來已經有連續七期"},{"start":2966.295,"end":2982.39,"text":"你如果連這個都可以接軌的話那顯然就會過度寬容你如果不接軌的話那你要如何面對這個要去清楚我覺得最基本一個原則我記得我之前問過黃天牧主委也就是說如果要接軌之前第一個RBC的部分要提高到200"},{"start":2983.991,"end":3004.425,"text":"第二個呢 要先自住金管會才會提供人住這個態度有沒有轉變其實沒有轉變沒有轉變那沒有轉變的情況底下呢商商美邦連續七期RBC已經落入資本不足那最近這個金管會你們說要求他們簽署一個增資承諾書"},{"start":3006.341,"end":3024.429,"text":"問題是連續三年半都提不出來了啊你現在就有辦法嗎這是第一個問題他有沒有能力你要做一個判準你要做一個判準你要給他們多少門檻還有期限才能達到所謂的這個原則不會變嘛 主委我跟委員稍微報告一下"},{"start":3025.589,"end":3042.899,"text":"其實受險業的資本氏族率跟他比如說我們先談這個案子啦你不要再談其他的教科書的原則啦好不好這一定要先講跟委員報告一下大家會以為就是說你資本氏族率不到200你就必須出場不是"},{"start":3043.599,"end":3056.784,"text":"資本市足率就是假設我最簡單的概念資本減掉負債你還要有一定的Buffer你Buffer低於我警戒值我叫你改善並不是這家公司不能經營我想這是一個前提對 我現在不是在談這個原理原則我談說這個狀況你要怎麼處理對 所以說不會影響到你監理寬容的尺度的拿捏那當然這是"},{"start":3064.426,"end":3084.633,"text":"這也是我們就是說怎麼做到公平接軌這是過去我們在這一年來我們每個禮拜密集開會在討論的重點所以剛剛講 我也跟他講說RBC跟這個接軌過程當中會不會因為就像比如這張投影片講說財務不合格也能適用監理寬容這應該要回答兩個問題就是是不是用一樣的監理寬容"},{"start":3085.313,"end":3111.125,"text":"如果是用不一樣的監禮規範那當然就有考慮到公平性了所以我們會很快的就公佈這套制度就可以看得到就是說不會因為你原來原來這個責任會因為接軌而消失這個我想很簡單的道理主委 講白一點你當然是你有一個政策目標嘛你要全部讓他接軌是一個態度還是要分級處理還是要掌握一定的原則我現在本席要問你是說你現在很明顯就是遇到這個問題嘛"},{"start":3112.466,"end":3133.508,"text":"那接下來你要對商商營的部分呢你到底要當媒人來引介不同的對象或者你要準備當新郎要把他迎娶我問你是說你最後怎麼辦啊如果沒有辦法在一體適用的情況底下你總要有一個基本的態度出來嘛現在沒多久了 現在十月了"},{"start":3134.725,"end":3160.308,"text":"對啊所以說我們現在因為這個就是因為像委員講的複雜程度很高所以我們過去呢一定要非常周延討論我想我們到現在還沒討論出來討論出來了討論出來態度如何我剛跟各位講過假設啦我們有一個叫做這個信賴保護原則就是說你現在是一個RBC及格的公司比如說按照我們基準點就是6月30號及格的公司不會因為我換一個制度突然你就"},{"start":3161.149,"end":3178.479,"text":"你就突然就必須要這個所以我們給一個過度就是剛剛委員提到的寬容但這個過程當中如果說因為你因為一直沒有完成舊制度的這部分這部分你還是要持續來完成但是這個額外外加的負擔不會因此而減少"},{"start":3179.099,"end":3193.848,"text":"主委你現在還是迴避這個個案的處理你看你最近的整個這個態度是區言或是分歧也不清楚像這保化中心最近釋放出來說研究於這個ICS2.0的過渡措施呢可借金額是15年"},{"start":3194.548,"end":3211.588,"text":"或超接五年一些業界就開始想說為什麼又變來變去這是第一啦第二部分呢過去我們對整個這個IFO 17的這個部分的接軌基本上IFO 17它主要是要透明化嘛可是你最近呢你的報告都說也提到要重新去評估啊這個整個海外投資的狀況"},{"start":3214.932,"end":3229.681,"text":"海外投資的這個匯殺損的部分過去就是因為過度寬容開放了海外投資45%的一個上限之後以至於現在要承擔這麼多的曝血嘛這是第一嘛第二個部分呢你現在匯損的部分呢你說要蓋牌"},{"start":3231.522,"end":3257.343,"text":"那這不是跟i4-17的這個透明化又相衝我嗎這個跟委員講絕對不是蓋牌我想這是一個非常非常專業也很難去一次說清楚我嘗試跟委員報告委員剛剛講的叫做蓋牌是客氣的沒有剛剛那個超額跟那個超借跟一般的概念那個變來變去其實並沒有變來變去你把財務不要讓它受到匯率風險不揭露然後呢讓業者能在整個這一個"},{"start":3259.104,"end":3280.698,"text":"這個匯率對他有利的時候他又說他大舉了獲利也就是說呢他獲利的時候他強調透明化他虧損的時候他蓋牌化不是 其實委員其實不是吧你不應該如此吧絕對不是這樣子可是你看起來是這樣子啊你政策揭露看起來是這樣子啊那你要好好說明一下你要蓋牌就全部蓋牌你要透明就全部透明剛剛委員講的就是說選擇性的蓋牌跟選擇性的透明絕對不是這樣我想委員您誤會了"},{"start":3283.76,"end":3312.544,"text":"因為今天我想可能時間不夠我盡量講就是我們應該這樣講說其實會計最重要是要公允表達一個行業那只是說我們的現在受選業這樣經營的型態現行的表達反而產生更大的誤解的時候我們應該尋求更允當表達他的方式而不是蓋牌就像剛才講說今天來講假設這樣做的話你好的你也沒有壞的你也不需要這就是一個公平的概念你要處理好當然你要處理好"},{"start":3313.144,"end":3339.05,"text":"這是我們絕對要做的你現在做了這麼多監理寬容你無非他也要做出一些一定的回饋你就訂一個大回饋計畫嘛對不對其實我們叫監理寬容其實是不太適當這跟以前我們在河濱的監理寬容是不一樣再低化也可以啦 不管你用什麼名詞啦因為我們現在是用更嚴格的規定現在本席要就教於您的時候當他擬定大回饋計畫的時候你要很清楚他大回饋的計畫內容而不是只有對象啊"},{"start":3340.611,"end":3354.651,"text":"對 這是另外一個他要去做的事情對 不是只有社會嘛不是只有員工嘛不是一個只有含糊的對象你要擬出一個具體的指標譬如講具體指標當中你報告一個的啊你就是說他資金海外資金回流的KPI"},{"start":3355.552,"end":3374.639,"text":"投入工件的比例有多少跟委員報告一下然後投入創新創投的比例有多少這是第一嘛第二個它可以設計出來一個比較符合普惠的人壽的保險而不是只有儲蓄型跟投資型然後不斷的吸金然後又造成新的一個部險的模式出現謝謝委員其實委員你剛才講的方向就是我們現在正要做的就是說"},{"start":3375.399,"end":3404.971,"text":"我們推出一個嚴格的資本世俗規範當然我們很多公司沒辦法瞬間到位我們給他15年的時間讓你好好做到那一點但這個過程當中將來講說你怎麼樣去調整你的那個資產負債結構剛剛委員講到提到怎麼樣做更多更穩健的經營然後來搭配你的資本監理制度這是我們未來整套馬上會公布的你要給他設定一個基本的一個可能計畫的一個原則跟參考依據嗎這個是應該要做的不是讓他自由的去擬定嗎這樣他符合"},{"start":3404.991,"end":3406.292,"text":"我期待你看出一個更具體的不要忽鬆 忽緊 忽寬 忽窄"},{"start":3428.835,"end":3457.551,"text":"我想另外一個部分你知道我們現在股票的蓬勃發展但是弊案好像隨之而來之前如果我們在討論這個的部分當初我們的整個股票市場的市值從原來的十大現在變成全球八大原來的九十兆聽說可能會破百兆相對而言最近的整個內線交易炒股案就不斷發生"},{"start":3458.732,"end":3483.868,"text":"到底這些內線交易跟炒股案是一個法律制度規範的不足或者是判決的這個依據這個定罪率太低還是防逃的機制不夠否則的話這樣的風氣再下去的話站在一個主委你希望這個資本市場的穩定投資人的權益的保障這都是你應該要面對的問題不是嗎是"},{"start":3485.305,"end":3506.292,"text":"那主委面對這些問題你有沒有什麼想法跟做法其實我從上任開始我想在很多的地方我就發現到這是一個需要被好好來處理第一個我們很多的基金經理人我相信大部分的基金經理人都是非常專業正職的經理人是一個部分喔然後你看那朱國榮國保集團總裁落跑啦鮑宇大亨中文字落跑啦"},{"start":3506.992,"end":3521.769,"text":"重刀最典型的這個部分這個潛逃當然不是你的範圍嘛這個司法體系那個司法訴訟的時間太長也是造成他潛逃一個因素你看還有成德生技 迅達電大立光 成創科技所有的東西"},{"start":3522.91,"end":3550.152,"text":"都看不出來有什麼樣實質的嚇阻作用對這是一個司法的問題我想剛才委員司法問題也有可能是立法的問題制度的規範的問題就投影片後面那個跟單的部分我們是確實要好好來解決怎麼樣尊重這個專業然後怎麼樣透過我們現在是希望透過比較科技的方式透過這些交易流來發現這些事情我想已經在做司法機關真的是末端主管機關還是在於你對不對"},{"start":3551.253,"end":3565.801,"text":"這些一連串的狀況當中我建議你你要我給你一個月的時間你擬一下問如何去解決這個問題跟亂象隨著整個資本市場不斷的壯大的情況弊案隨之增加也不是好事好不好"},{"start":3566.981,"end":3585.375,"text":"一個月可以吧可以可以我們把這個相關的一些問題一點把它釐清清楚制度怎麼解決政府的態度是如何要對投資大眾講清楚好不好那當然謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝國務委員那再請彭主委一個月內提報告接下來我們請賴會員委員謝謝主席我們請金管會主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":3598.426,"end":3619.469,"text":"主委早安早主委我想這個資本市場的引擎還有國家競爭力的一個象徵就是來自於經濟我們國家的一個經濟其實就是很明確的就是表現出來就是國家的競爭力那我針對的最新的這一個議題就是"},{"start":3623.952,"end":3645.737,"text":"新光人壽在T17跟T18的地上全案就是有沒有做到軍管會有沒有做到這個保護權益跟監管的一個責任剛才我聽到就是主委你跟賴思寶委員在對談的過程當中也針對相同的一個議題你特別有提醒到就是說工具不足"},{"start":3646.537,"end":3659.949,"text":"無法可管也不是因為我們不同的執掌有不同的執掌並不是只有監管會是 我們還有很多其他單位那必須要是跨部會的一個監管共同的來解決這一個問題"},{"start":3661.79,"end":3677.831,"text":"那這個新興病是經過金管會核定的一個併購案好 那我現在就是也一樣再回到就是賴斯堡委員的一個議題就是說合併後的一個存續公司那到底目前在華麗的主體是誰"},{"start":3680.188,"end":3702.361,"text":"其實按照他們在7月送過來的計劃書因為他們大概在7月下旬就已經把合併的申請送到保險局現在正在審查 補件審查中那他們是 剛剛我也報告過了他們在計劃書所呈送的是存續公司是台新人壽小米公司新光人壽合併以後更名為新光人壽"},{"start":3703.044,"end":3724.609,"text":"是 可是之前的星光人壽已經不存在了法律上面它在合併的時候它是被指定就是一個消滅公司但是實際上它所有的實體都還是在未來這合併的實體裡面好 那主委我請教你星光人壽的一個保護他們所有的保障是不是還存在完全不改變這是我們金融機構合併法裡面非常清楚明定"},{"start":3725.242,"end":3740.209,"text":"是完全不改變對 完全起碼我們就是已經保障了星光人壽的所有保護的一個權利這個過去合併案已經有很多很多已經有幾十年就是應該金融機構合併法從89年通過以後一直都是這樣"},{"start":3740.669,"end":3753.479,"text":"那到目前為止因為昨天李士川副市長他開了一個記者會他說今天就會終止跟星光人壽的一個合併"},{"start":3756.661,"end":3772.467,"text":"那個合併同意那個解決這一個狀況那如果就是說他們今天透過這樣的一個公開的一個程序的話那你認為台北市政府可以這樣的一個認定嗎站在金管會的立場上"},{"start":3773.103,"end":3791.001,"text":"我想剛才有委員詢問到我也是看這個新聞看到他們開了記者會台北市他們開了記者會說今天會發文給新光人壽提議怎麼樣來進行合議解約我想這是我剛才說過這個問題是他們跟新光人壽之間的"},{"start":3792.462,"end":3817.1,"text":"這個地上權的合約的爭議他們就按照合約上去解決這部分我想大概就是這個那金管會這邊所在意的就是說星光他針對T17 T18是一個不動產的投資案我們就按照我們不動產的相關規範來管理這件事情有沒有慢如果就是地上權的這個開花那星光人壽有沒有慢了那金管會有沒有失職"},{"start":3818.055,"end":3846.705,"text":"其實我剛才跟委員報告就是說我們的辦法裡面規定因為他的地上權就是我們是按照明確以樹地來做管理就是一塊土地來做管理那土地的開發我們因為保險法已經明確講就是說所有的不動產必須要及時利用且有收益但是對於既有的不動產比如說商辦或是大樓這些應該立刻要產生收益我們有一定的規定比如說一定期間之內你就必須要有收益否則的話我們會處罰或限期叫他改善"},{"start":3847.365,"end":3870.416,"text":"所以這個五年的時間我剛才有看到了你特別的這個回答其他的委員有特別講得很清楚就是說他還要透過都審所以他的計算方式並不是說合約開始簽訂了以後的五年是他透過了都審通過了以後的第一年開始這樣子算就是都審的時間不算那其他就是我們的五年"},{"start":3871.436,"end":3898.494,"text":"就是按照我們所謂的即時利用且有所謂對土地的管理的部分其實主委我們比較擔心的就是說新光人壽的一個公司的權益如果在沒有受損然後保護的權益也是被保存下來的時候那新壽是不是有背信的這一個問題新壽有沒有背信的問題我想這個可能是我在這裡要拜託就是我們金管會要密切的去注意這樣的一個問題"},{"start":3899.406,"end":3915.825,"text":"是當然比如說我剛才講我們在意的是公司比如說公司治理的程序是否符合我們內供內機相關公司治理的規範以及不動產投資是不是符合我們相關的內容那至於說他們契約上面的爭議其實很多人就把這兩個混在一起其實這兩個是"},{"start":3917.186,"end":3935.1,"text":"所以不只金管會可以管我想財政部還有經濟部還有其他跨部會其實都可以一起來參與中央都可以來參與監督也來協助這個案子當然有助於產業發展爭取外資投資這都是一致的"},{"start":3936.482,"end":3961.885,"text":"主委接著金融開放來跟你探討亞洲金融那個管理中心就是高雄的金融專區我們知道在7月1日正式的一個啟動那這個啟動的過程當中其實金融的開放我想不是只有市場的一個議題也是國土均衡的一個策略上的一個工具所以說擺在高雄其實上一次我有跟你請教過是不是"},{"start":3962.605,"end":3990.434,"text":"這一個專區其實在每一個縣市都有機會就是變成一個金融專區是不是這樣子的一個一個就是我們是不是以這樣子的一個鋪陳呢是的我想我在很多地方講過就是我們是參考日本的金融專區的設立像日本就四個城市他們這樣當然我們該講的主要是比如說我們各個各個地方政府願意提供什麼樣的誘因來吸引或是發展他的特色我們在金管這邊一定全力來支持"},{"start":3990.959,"end":4019.613,"text":"是所以就是說不是只有一個高雄專區他也有機會變成一個台南的專區那金管會都會全力的一個支持好那從高雄專區的一個吸引力是不是比照新加坡那是不是比較新加坡我想法治的一個穩定這個應該是沒有問題好 稅務的一個優惠那如果是新加坡的稅務的優惠的話他其實如果我們看那個資料"},{"start":4020.593,"end":4026.079,"text":"如果你有投資就是超過台幣267億你就可以免稅優惠稅到5%到10%那這一個我們高雄專區有沒有這樣子的一個稅務的優惠呢"},{"start":4038.004,"end":4065.123,"text":"我們的稅是屬於中央的權限就是稅法上面的規定地方的話我們就看像比如說以日本為例他們有些地方有課地方稅他們地方就可以決定來做這件事情我想這個稅的部分我們相較於比如新加坡確實在這一塊我們的是比較沒有那麼的突出像新加坡很明顯他比如說針對你外國投資的部分他對他的企業的所得稅"},{"start":4066.444,"end":4093.935,"text":"那還有就是比如說他們沒有那麼突出是表示沒有是不是那如果你沒有辦法就是優惠在這個稅率上優惠的話你怎麼吸引這個就是比較多的一個這個產業願意把錢放在這個專區裡頭呢當然是我想這是一個稅的話我在很多地方也說過稅當然是一個很好的武器或是很好的工具但是我們也看到如果說一定要有稅才能做的話我們"},{"start":4094.835,"end":4115.962,"text":"在台灣要爭取稅是比較那金管會有沒有試著跟就是說財政部還是說高雄市政府去做這個稅的一個溝通這個絕對是我們溝通的重點優惠的一個溝通有沒有當然有有 還是行不通當然各個部會在做這些考慮的時候他可以不可以讓一些出來你如果不讓的話事實上我們怎麼就是說"},{"start":4117.162,"end":4138.934,"text":"追求這個更多的一個投資者願意把錢換到這一個專區裡頭來你一定要有一個誘因這個誘因應該是我們大家要努力的是我想委員講得非常非常的我非常的贊成就第一個當然比如說我們也看世界上很多的金融中心他並沒有稅他也做得很好但我們也不能說沒有稅我們就不做"},{"start":4139.774,"end":4145.963,"text":"像比如說紐約倫敦他們也沒有稅但是他一樣是很多的他有他的條件他有他的條件嘛因為他整個投資的一個集中就在那個地方嘛那我們現在要新創我們必須要有更多的一個誘因嘛"},{"start":4155.615,"end":4183.321,"text":"那譬如說你的高資產客戶要跟那個國際有一個競爭力你就是要把這一個他的一個行政程序你要把它縮短變成是一戶式的你不能讓他在這個整個開戶整個就是說在使用上他就變非常的一個冗長那顯然稅務的優惠是沒有啦對 稅務優惠我們是比較相對的比較缺乏但是比如說法制穩定彈性兼領我們可以來努力對不對這部分"},{"start":4184.861,"end":4209.346,"text":"特別是在金融監理的我覺得法制跟監理的彈性這個對你來講都不是問題都是稅務的優惠這一段我想我們應該要再更努力所以我也期待有所突破因為這部分確實假設我們要長遠能夠具有持續性的進展跟優勢我想稅如果有稅的幫忙當然是一個非常正面的因素"},{"start":4210.126,"end":4228.781,"text":"那我想就是再有一個議題啦跨境的ETF這一個在東京掛牌那在這個第三季的一個掛牌到目前為止這個我們看起來成績是不怎麼樣那不怎麼樣那個我不知道主委你有沒有去看到這一個問題"},{"start":4230.08,"end":4253.448,"text":"我想今天剛好交一首董事長這邊他可以跟委員快速的報告一下現在的狀況董事長是不是快速的報告一下跟委員報告那事實上我們掛了兩隻在東政所這兩隻跨進了ETF在一個月 九月到現在一個月內一隻成長它的AUM它的那個Found Size成長五倍另外一隻成長三倍也就在一個月內"},{"start":4254.268,"end":4272.658,"text":"他真的成長一個五倍跟一個三倍所以而且東政所也為了我們這兩支呢他也做了很多網路的宣傳包括連結或這樣所以他們短時間內東政所也對我們非常的支持我想台灣的科技台灣的科技是一個很亮眼的一個指標那問題就是說"},{"start":4275.059,"end":4300.121,"text":"這一個管理上是不是在資產管理上是不是有辦法透明這個是應該是吸引投資者非常重要的一個原因那我是要那個拜託大家就是說我們希望就是這個跨境跨境那個ETF我們尤其是在日本這個我們應該是因為在地緣上那個我們可以做得更好那給大家加油是 這也是我們努力的方向"},{"start":4300.401,"end":4304.063,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝賴委員接下來我們請林思明召委好 謝謝主席我們請諸位我們請彭諸位"},{"start":4321.311,"end":4330.523,"text":"委員好主委早早主委有關詐騙的案件我查了一下114年第二季的被害人共計有54996人"},{"start":4333.427,"end":4342.336,"text":"比較第一季增加了7898人其中又以投資詐欺佔5.14%最多被害人達到19327人佔我們總被害人的35.14%這個是最多"},{"start":4352.466,"end":4363.931,"text":"那刑事局在10月2號對外表示在房土詐騙以虛擬貨幣進行洗錢的部分刑事局已查扣102億的虛擬貨幣並以針對非法的幣商進行專案的查緝以阻斷詐團利用虛擬貨幣來躲避追查那請問金管會"},{"start":4375.478,"end":4396.826,"text":"金管會在9月22號也公告首波完成洗錢房子登記的虛擬資產業者的名單共有9家業者得繼續經營這個業務但有18家就職業者未登記不得再提供虛擬資產的服務所以要請問主委這18家不得再提供虛擬資產服務"},{"start":4398.246,"end":4416.605,"text":"的這些業者儘管會有無持續追蹤就是在9月22號你公告以後是否他真的已經停止提供相關的服務有沒有是各位報告其實這一點我們跟檢調都有保持密切的聯繫只要是他今天沒有"},{"start":4417.446,"end":4431.198,"text":"在9月30號以前沒有取得登記制的如果實際從事都是違法我們檢察局的同仁也會去現場去看也會把相關的情資呢提供給檢調去做事後的查緝是"},{"start":4432.691,"end":4453.371,"text":"主委我看你今天的一個報告你說你表示說你有這個對外同步公告已不得再提供虛擬資產服務的就職業者名單來提供民眾查詢所以我想請問除了公告以外我們還採取哪些措施主要是這個名單的部分因為其實民眾他可能看到"},{"start":4454.392,"end":4472.146,"text":"有一家業者他就想去比如說金管黑看是不是我名單上的名單過去曾經發生過歷史名單可能在網路他收到了他就以為還有所以我們要及時的更新就告訴我們其實就像我們在金管黑的網站就會告訴你什麼是合格的業者的名單"},{"start":4473.447,"end":4500.089,"text":"那這個是我們要隨時來做更新所以我知道我說你除了公告這些業者的名單這些不能再繼續提供服務的業者的名單以外你還會採取哪些措施現在主要是就我的所知就我們會請檢察局跟通知我們的檢警調去對這個部分進行主動的去查核所以如果查到的話依照我們相關的現在的法規有哪些法則"},{"start":4500.71,"end":4509.369,"text":"現在的罰則最終可以處兩年徒刑有刑責就對了登記制以後開始有刑責就只有刑責而已"},{"start":4511.212,"end":4539.089,"text":"那我也看到了刑事局他也有促請說金管會要協助加強監管禁止現金交易所以金管會所採取的防治措施有哪些對於這些防堵現金交易的措施有採取哪些措施我們剛開始在所謂聲明制的時候有很多業者設了很多所謂的那個那個對比機就是那個ATM就是BTM"},{"start":4540.209,"end":4565.931,"text":"這部分因為很多都用現金交易現金交易就沒辦法去追蹤他的KYC不知道是誰來做這個交易所以我們發現這個問題以後我們就要求工會我們就直接就去函這所有東西就不能用現金交易我想這個對很多在從事這些比較灰色或是這些的立刻就產生嚇阻作用很多的我們的業者就覺得這部分他可能沒辦法做他就自己就收掉了我想有幾家是這樣子"},{"start":4566.912,"end":4587.657,"text":"那這樣也有助於就是說我們對於這個所謂的詐騙的一些的阻止當然我們也不會妨礙因為你只要透過銀行的戶頭去匯款買賣就可以那個主委我想您剛才提到您有採取一些措施是那我想請教說你除了採取這些措施以外你是否有充分掌握這些違法業者的名單"},{"start":4590.179,"end":4595.244,"text":"你有查到有哪些名單有沒有查到其實我們檢察局我們都有例行性對他們做檢查其實也可以請我們局長跟委員簡單報告一下"},{"start":4602.496,"end":4621.942,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在我們在今年對12家的這個虛擬資產業者部分的檢查部分我們發現到一些業者有可能涉及到一些不法現金的交易的部分我們已經把相關的資料已經提供名單都有掌握了對 我們已經提供給檢警調去繼續再做後續的一些證判都有充分的掌握了是是是OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":4623.482,"end":4651.019,"text":"那主委我想再請教就是說我們剛才一直關心的就是那個虛擬資產服務法這個專法在今年6月27號你已經報行政院了那個草案包含穩定幣的發行及管理相關的監管的一些要求但是目前還躺在行政院監管會員先宣示說今年底就要施行就要公布施行但是我們現在看起來時間就有點趕了"},{"start":4653.36,"end":4671.355,"text":"而且目前我看到有銀行業者凱基銀行他宣布將與全球最大的美元穩定幣發行商Tether合作推動虛擬貨幣的應用資產服務所以法規如果不能及時上路恐怕對投資人的保障會有很大的不足"},{"start":4672.296,"end":4695.49,"text":"所以目前我們看到除了民眾黨還有我們有幾位委員都有提案所以請問主委那櫃會送交行政院的版本到底何時會送到立法院其實跟委員報告其實金管會是沒辦法宣誓說我們什麼時候要那要透過行政院跨部會的審查由政委來召集跨部會審查我們已經開過會我們會加速來請這個"},{"start":4701.334,"end":4726.763,"text":"那行政院審查所以在這個會期內沒有辦法順利這個我們站在經管委員會立場我們是希望能夠盡快的來審查因為這部法律通過以後呢還有大概七部的執法那我們現在都在準備中這七部的執法通過才有辦法上路所以這部分呢還需要一點時間剛剛委員講說會不會有空窗或是怎麼樣因為剛剛跟委員也質詢到了就是說我們現在採用的登記制"},{"start":4727.643,"end":4742.484,"text":"登記制某種程度來講雖然他的整個的效率跟他的範圍沒有像我們現在虛擬服務專法那麼的完備但是現在已經可以透過這個登記制做一定程度的對這個機構跟他行為做控管是"},{"start":4743.705,"end":4765.338,"text":"主委我想有專法對我們投資人的保障會比較夠所以我還是希望說主委你去跟行政院一定要多做溝通會 會我們會盡快的去把這部法律送到我們立法院來做審查讓他三讀通過另外就是說穩定幣的發行金管會是否也已經跟央行討論規劃未來穩定幣發行的幣別種類以及它應用幅的範圍"},{"start":4769.74,"end":4791.671,"text":"其實我們在當時在立這個草案還有包括這個有關一些這個數位現金這樣的部分我們一直都有跟央行保持聯繫而且再來未來我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面呢這部分也是穩定幣是油金管會跟央行共管未來是要共同管理這一塊市場所以有跟央行做規劃討論"},{"start":4794.517,"end":4820.414,"text":"另外主委我們這個有關亞洲資產管理中心台灣州將在這個後天10月15號就要在高雄來開幕活動的重點聚焦在亞資的政策上要打造台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心要推出一系列的論壇座談博覽會目前有33家的金融業來參與包含了"},{"start":4825.398,"end":4837.107,"text":"17家銀行 12家證券期貨投資投信投顧公司 4家保險公司證取局也表示截至目前已經有2.4萬人次的報名法人機構參與家屬為34家"},{"start":4840.589,"end":4867.906,"text":"專從國外來台參與的外資則逾140人次分別來自日本 韓國 新加坡 香港 美國印尼 印度 越南 柬埔寨等地主委 您也指出說台灣擁有豐沛的民間資金以及國際競爭力的產業是這些都是我們己身國際邁向未來的重要基礎將打造我們台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這也是我們行政院經發會的重要計畫之一"},{"start":4869.887,"end":4882.758,"text":"此次將藉由台灣州向全球投資人展示台灣的經濟實力行政院在明年度施政報告中也提到高雄設立資產管理專區開放38項業務還要透過ETF永續債券TISA帳戶來帶動發展"},{"start":4888.863,"end":4901.88,"text":"另外在今晚會針對我國總體經濟分析台灣發展亞洲資產管理中心的條件的簡報資料中也指出國內資金很充沛銀行存款有54.9兆超額儲蓄連續4年超過3兆受險資產超過34兆"},{"start":4906.986,"end":4933.349,"text":"但是我國如果要和香港 新加坡競爭的話現階段缺乏國際市場的關心的稅負優惠外匯自由化 語言的環境優勢這些都是目前我們無法避免的結構性劣勢所以請問主委根據這些財經媒體的報導政府強調國際合作跨境ETF的掛牌但實際資金流入規模有限"},{"start":4934.19,"end":4951.281,"text":"雖然政府在高雄設立專區推動TISA專戶但根本結構性的問題要如何克服能不能在這邊向國人投資人表示我們具備什麼樣的優勢及能力跟香港新加坡來競爭亞洲資產管理中心的地位"},{"start":4951.801,"end":4978.813,"text":"是 我想剛委員提到的問題其實都已經非常完整就是要發展一個金融中心或資產管理中心他要很多很多的條件當然所有條件我們都有那當然最好但是我們應該是這樣想我們沒有的我們趕快慢慢應該要加速來爭取或來建構我們有的地方我們要好好的利用所以我們就先開始起步來做這件事情當然比如說如果稅跟外匯的話那主要是針對"},{"start":4980.134,"end":4997.601,"text":"外部的資金但對本國的資金怎麼讓他留下來可能是我們現階段最重要的一個工作所以這部分我們會是循序漸進來推動主委我想最後一個問題在30秒我們在政策設計上到底是要偏向流財還是引資我們先以流財"},{"start":4999.843,"end":5019.961,"text":"為主軸但是引資絕對是我們要做這兩個是雙向但是我們一定要先做到能夠留財你談引資才是更現實更具體所以我們這兩個是同時做但是我們現在主要是先針對留住台灣的財富為主要現階段的工作OK好主委加油謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝我們林昭偉接下來我們請顏寬恆委員"},{"start":5034.711,"end":5057.602,"text":"主席各位同仁大家早主席有請金管會彭主委好我們請彭主委委員好主委好主委金管會最近引起很多的民怨民眾在網路上表示說金管會的打詐根本沒有考慮到實務的部分那這個從六月份"},{"start":5059.363,"end":5070.267,"text":"就有17家的銀行這個停止這個不希望這個警示帳戶的增加這個政策所以呢就停止受理民眾使用自然能憑證開立這個帳戶那"},{"start":5075.59,"end":5094.751,"text":"現在就是因為金管會打詐措施沒有考慮到食物的部分所以民眾可能因為要領薪水所以會有一個新轉戶那當薪水進到帳戶他們把薪水轉到自己的其他帳戶像是信用卡一些帶腳的一些水電或這樣的一個過程就被銀行認為說他們在洗錢"},{"start":5097.273,"end":5112.8,"text":"帳戶就被封鎖那民眾打電話去銀行解釋那說也沒用那希望銀行能夠恢復但是銀行端的恢復都說這是AI偵測的結果那他們也沒辦法解鎖要民眾等三到六個月"},{"start":5113.94,"end":5129.726,"text":"三天都不能等那個柴米油鹽薑醋茶小孩子的學費還有一些每天鎖睡的這些支付那麼多那還要三個月所以民眾的錢都卡在那邊不能動造成大家這麼大的困擾"},{"start":5130.782,"end":5146.466,"text":"有的上班族學生他們為了要解鎖還特地請假到銀行端這邊去解釋但是這樣子也銀行這邊也沒辦法幫他解鎖所以這個問題是非常嚴重我記得我們上個會期就有討論過這個事情上個會期就是說"},{"start":5150.187,"end":5174.83,"text":"金管會已經表示說針對這個風險控管的措施一定要兼顧這個比例原則所以我們剛剛提到就是因為不符合比例原則所以這個全能考量這個服務安全性不希望看到銀行去風險性的處理結果現在各大銀行都沒有聽進去就是因為怕被沒有做好沒有按照金管會的指示所以這個被裁罰所以"},{"start":5177.232,"end":5198.967,"text":"錯殺100沒關係反正就是這麼做反而真正受害的都是我們這些民眾你們要封鎖的這些這些可能涉及洗錢的涉及詐騙的這些都沒有找到反而讓他們逍遙法外所以這個亂象我想要請教主委你要怎麼樣去來處理這個事情是謝謝委員給我這個機會來向國人說明我想剛剛講的第一個委員剛剛講的帳戶可以分成兩類一個是由"},{"start":5207.532,"end":5226.377,"text":"檢調機關涉控的比如說警示帳戶跟衍生帳戶這部分是金融機構只是被動的協助他們做這個我們沒辦法去解控那是要跟那個檢警這邊去做申訴另外一個是我們去年通過打詐專法以後特別賦予金融機構可以自我管控的部分"},{"start":5226.917,"end":5251.334,"text":"我想我也應該關心的是這個自我管控自我管控是因為我們去年打詐專法發表說我們的警示帳戶那都是有了詐騙的人以後已經被詐騙了那是一個比較被動事後的概念所以打詐專特別給說那金融機構如果你有這個能力有這個辦法判讀出已經有高度危險的帳戶你可以進行不是全部都是手控他可以部分或是一些"},{"start":5252.054,"end":5277.305,"text":"就是來做進一步的查證我想這不就是剛才委員提到民怨的部分我也跟委員報告就是警示賬戶在過去來講一直都是我們在詐騙上面一個非常重要的工具我們從110年初的時候我們大概只有六萬六千個警示賬戶但是我們經過我們在不斷的去努力的話以前每個月將近每個月都會增加將近三千個賬戶今年年初"},{"start":5278.445,"end":5296.612,"text":"已經來到了15萬這部分這也是為什麼我們我們這個詐團不斷的利用這些比如說閒置或是一些是帳戶呢這非常非常嚴重所以我們開始採取這個措施的時候我們到9月的時候呢這個開始首度出現了負成長比如我們從今年3月來看的話"},{"start":5297.512,"end":5322.237,"text":"我們過去大概只有10家銀行是下降現在來到25家警視帳戶下降代表說我們的管控是有效的但是剛剛講委員剛剛指正的我們會虛心的檢討就說請他們講說我們不會因為說有這樣的比如說這樣我們就停止這個我想柵團也很希望我們這麼做管控當然沒有錯但是我講的就是老民的部分你看看這張圖這個部分"},{"start":5325.051,"end":5335.777,"text":"民眾八月份就被鎖一次所以他到銀行去解鎖然後都會標明轉帳的用途結果在轉帳小朋友的學費的時候又被鎖了"},{"start":5336.519,"end":5358.294,"text":"又被鎖了那當初在這個台灣Pay在推出的時候主打就是小額交易免手續費所以很多民眾都來使用那現在繳學費也被鎖用LinePay買東西也被鎖所以只要AI覺得有問題的都會被鎖那既然是AI覺得有問題的可能都是這一些"},{"start":5359.255,"end":5386.434,"text":"不是實際上有問題的AI覺得有問題結果沒問題那怎麼辦是不是AI有問題所以你們的政策系統有沒有修正有沒有做一些什麼樣的一個檢討其實跟委員報告我們並沒有要求公司怎麼做是我們只是要求他好好管控你的警示帳戶各家公司他們自己的政策自己的方法來做像剛才講說有些公司他可能在AI的這個標準的鎖控上面不對我們立刻就請他來做一個"},{"start":5387.975,"end":5389.92,"text":"了解跟改善所以我們現在是希望他們"},{"start":5391.147,"end":5418.861,"text":"只要有這個狀況一定要非常的去精準去調教你這個東西而且我們要求這個每家都要設24小時的專線而且你必須要把這個東西把這個物控的這些經驗分享給其他同業所以我想這個問題會改善但是我們主柵的決心不變但是方法要好好來打柵主柵當然這個主要目標不能變但是就是說我們剛剛提到就你要提高精準度"},{"start":5421.422,"end":5445.52,"text":"這個我們一定會來全力來努力你會造成我們民眾很多的不便像剛剛提到很多的這個上班族或者是學生他們的這個銀行就被鎖住了鎖住之後他每天要支出要使用的他不能用那不能用他到銀行端去解釋又不能獲得馬上的一個改善那這樣子的時候他就變成這不只是擾民這會變成說他是一個我們打詐"},{"start":5447.842,"end":5471.927,"text":"的一個受害者我們希望盡快的取得一個平衡但是確實我剛才講跟委員報告我們民眾的帳戶被炸團使用的比率持續在增加這件事情確實是我們在打炸中一個非常重要的重點我剛才講過我們做這些確實也看到已經達到成效但是方法的部分我們一定要好好來精進"},{"start":5473.147,"end":5487.663,"text":"這個提高精準度 落實比例原則不要讓銀行因為害怕金管會的裁罰所以把這些成本轉嫁到一般的民眾身上這是今天在這邊跟主委要求的主委這個多久能夠改善"},{"start":5488.203,"end":5503.108,"text":"一個月內能不能夠改善其實我們持續都在改善因為我們會一個要求像我們也要求銀行公會他們打詐委員會你們好好針對這件事情做經驗的分享因為只要有一個案子這樣出現我們希望這個不要再重複好"},{"start":5504.088,"end":5517.966,"text":"那就請主委盡力盡快的好不好這個月內那接著再請教主委金寶法納管13家這個融資主任公司在9月15號已經正式上路了嘛那預計一年半的時間要納管41家"},{"start":5519.648,"end":5534.768,"text":"但是融資公司專法這邊金管會態度還是保留沒有對 上次主委有特別跟我說明過啦那我知道但是即便因為已經納管部分的這些融資主任公司但是他們的態度"},{"start":5536.051,"end":5550.328,"text":"這個部分還是沒有辦法讓人家接受啦因為現行的金保法當中沒有規定這個融資業者的負責人業務人員吹售人員的資格就是因為這部分所以可能會有不當的人員用"},{"start":5551.169,"end":5573.334,"text":"不合手段的不合法的這種手段催債我最擔心的就是說詐騙的問題因為融資公司可能跟他跟詐騙集團詐團他只是一線之隔那尤其詐團先以假投資的方式來詐騙民眾榨乾他的存款之後再慫恿他這個抵押房地產去借款"},{"start":5573.894,"end":5595.843,"text":"那這種案件層出不窮每天都在發生每天都在發生所以我想民眾對於融資公司的專法是因應的期盼那現在雖然有金保法納管部分的融資公司但是金保法在納管之餘有沒有說持續計畫融資公司專法的推動這個主委我想你要我也很"},{"start":5596.983,"end":5614.356,"text":"很肯定你對於我們台灣金融產業的一個發展是非常的盡心盡力但是保護民眾資產更是一個非常重要的一個責任所以說尤其融資業法推動聯盟也希望你們每個月可以公布三項數據就是畫面上這三項"},{"start":5618.599,"end":5638.388,"text":"那這三項數據的要求金管會可不可以公布我想我們平益中心的董事長也在這邊我想其實這樣看起來的話我覺得應該我初步來看啦我覺得應該沒有問題好 可以啦好 謝謝啦那主委我再請教因為會去跟融資公司借款的人"},{"start":5638.988,"end":5658.208,"text":"基本上都是比較急著要用錢他可能就是信用小白還是信用不好有些是弱勢團體那融資公司涉及到的借款問題對於這些急著用錢的往往容易讓他們陷入一個高風險的一個借貸的圈借款的一個圈套"},{"start":5659.289,"end":5678.849,"text":"那這些借款人可能也沒有足夠的能力去分辨說融資公司是否真的符合法規規範也難以知道自己會不會被強迫接受不合理的條件所以在這樣子的一個詐騙的問題上面然後融資公司假設他跟詐騙集團之間的界線很模糊"},{"start":5679.889,"end":5697.123,"text":"在一線之隔有可能他們這些不法分子就會跟這個詐團來合作對於民眾產生了二次傷害所以我希望就是說金管會能夠加快推動我們農事公司專法的立法進程對於這些不法的行為進行徹底的清除可以嗎 主委"},{"start":5697.603,"end":5716.581,"text":"其實我想 上次也跟委員報告過我覺得我們現在該做的是如何加強融資消費者的保護而不是對融資業者的保護所以我想這部分我們會朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝主委 謝謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝嚴委員接下來有請李委員昆城召委質詢"},{"start":5723.815,"end":5725.781,"text":"謝謝主席我們請彭主委"},{"start":5731.75,"end":5757.886,"text":"主委好美國川普總統他在上週他認為說中國宣布的稀土管制措施成為談判的重要障礙所以要加徵百分之百的關稅大家也預期說今天的台股有可能會大跌但是到目前為止好像跌幅有收斂起來了請教一下主委這個是台股的基本面好"},{"start":5758.746,"end":5776.454,"text":"那還是說呢 這個國安基金有介入那還是說呢 這個台灣的民眾 股民啊對於川普的談話已經有免疫了報委 我還是一樣 我不對那個做預測但是我覺得這個事情剛剛早上也有其他委員也有詢問過 就是說"},{"start":5777.995,"end":5802.253,"text":"今天這個事件主要是來自於美國一個總統的政策的消息面的影響我想台灣從4月2號開始已經經歷過非常非常多類似的經驗而且大家也比較知道就是說股市最終還是回歸到基本面那我想這部分其實這也可以說明台灣的資本市場是"},{"start":5803.214,"end":5821.883,"text":"已經是相對是理性的那我們的投資人能夠消化各種的訊息做出判斷所以主委認為說這個我們的基本面是好的那我們的這個投資者這個是非常理性的就對了就是說至少這個資本市場是一個眾人意志的集合我想"},{"start":5822.583,"end":5845.544,"text":"就像我們也是剛剛才看到這個結果我想任何的預測都有它一些限制但是我們看到結果確實台灣的投資人表現出一個相對於理性其實我們看其他我們周邊也周邊國家的股市也大概也沒有像美國反映的那麼大那所以說今天這個結果股市這個結果對於主委來講比你預期的還要好"},{"start":5846.424,"end":5860.572,"text":"我沒有預期好與壞資本市場本來就會吸納各式各樣但是你對於這個我們的基本面跟我們投資者有信心就對了我覺得他就是一個大家能夠消化各種訊息做出這樣的判斷"},{"start":5861.673,"end":5885.194,"text":"那再請教一下主委因為就是股市一直漲上個禮拜是收在27000點其實算是創新高了那但是呢同時我們的這個傳統產業其實放無性價的也是越來越多了那就是說現在的股市榮景是集中在這個AI高科技產業像台積電和他的這個相關的產業那只集中在高科技的產業"},{"start":5886.275,"end":5900.036,"text":"但是我們的傳統產業老實來講在這一波關稅的影響之下放無薪價越來越多有人提出來說台灣經濟有非理性繁榮的前兆我想請問一下主委的看法"},{"start":5900.919,"end":5929.114,"text":"我想這個是大概我們很久以前有個很有名的經濟學家提出來的我想剛剛早上也有委員問說有沒有荷蘭病什麼之類的問題我想各位現在資訊非常的複雜非常的多元各種的說法都有就像我剛才提到有人會從一個過去歷史的經驗來看任何一個高點大家都會提到就是居安思惟一定是大家不過台灣的股市是集中在高科技IC產業"},{"start":5930.435,"end":5944.53,"text":"造成這個股市創新高這個是目前上趨勢看起來是這樣子相對來講傳統產業的確表現沒有像高科技產業這麼的表現這麼好嘛對不對我想說主要是我們現在其實我也初步去看一下"},{"start":5945.431,"end":5972.637,"text":"這樣的現象不是只有台灣的資本市場股市是這樣因為現在越來越多的投資人是機構投資人有很多是比如說我們是ETF的市場他本質上他在選股上面就比較不會是一個所謂的就是按照這個消息面作為我想我的問題在於說就是說我們的高科技產業跟傳統產業有個落差當然那因為高科技產業他大概他的這一個就業人口大概是10%左右但是90%都是屬於中小微傳統產業"},{"start":5974.217,"end":5994.253,"text":"那就變成是說這樣子貧富差距會不會越大那如果未來說高科技產業有受到什麼影響的時候那是不是會造成這個有學者他所示警的就是說非理性繁榮的這個現象最理想的狀況當然是我們各行各業都很強大我想這是個理想的社會但是退而求其次我們至少還有一個強大或至少還有"},{"start":5995.194,"end":6014.746,"text":"就好幾個強大也是一次個選項我們所要努力的就是說我們希望其他的產業能夠取而代之比如說能夠不是取而代之能夠變成所謂的護國群山就像我們在做那個比如說亞洲資產關係中心這個計畫的時候我們就希望說未來金融業能夠成為另外一個非常重要的產業來平衡這件事情我想這是我們"},{"start":6016.415,"end":6045.47,"text":"來做一個努力我們當然希望每個產業都能橫頻能夠因應各種的變化那再請教一下主委這個虛擬資產服務法那現在已經收到行政院了那有沒有列為我們的優先法案現在因為它還沒有出行政院的審查那據我所知應該是行政院審查完畢才會進入到我們的法案的排列那有沒有列為行政院的優先法案我們現在在全力推動中那有機會在本會期送來立法院嗎"},{"start":6046.01,"end":6071.991,"text":"其實我也期待能夠盡快的審議因為事後他還要經過那個執法的訂定那目前的這個審議的這一個行政院有在審議當中了嗎那有沒有一些比較困難點的地方其實據我所知同仁講說因為接下來我們的審查的政委現在換成另外新的政委我們也跟他做過簡報我想各個部會都提出他的一些的那個意見我們在整合中應該很快會"},{"start":6073.152,"end":6083.625,"text":"會再進行實施審查會影響到進度嗎我想不會因為我們很快的就跟他做做整個法制的簡報而且行政院"},{"start":6084.756,"end":6104.689,"text":"裡面也很多專家也不斷的已經在運作中我是希望說這個會期還是能夠送到立法院來我們也期待我們送出就希望能夠趕快完成立法請教一下主委你們9月份有公布了9家業者完成洗錢房子登記也獲得許可另外有18家不合格"},{"start":6105.429,"end":6127.124,"text":"現在就是說不合格就不能再經營虛擬資產的服務否則面臨兩年以下的刑責但是也有人認為說我們現在只管國內的但是有七成消費者是使用國際平台七成的國際平台沒有被納管因為我們現在洗錢防治法我們其實是有規定就是說"},{"start":6130.086,"end":6143.739,"text":"國外的幣商要透過國內落地或做分公司或是公設登記加上洗房登記跟能量登錄才能在國內落地否則就處以刑責那現在有關於這個國外的這個虛擬資產的這些管理公司我們有納管嗎有準備納管嗎要怎麼管"},{"start":6146.201,"end":6168.479,"text":"當然其實就我們在管理的架構裡面其實我們並沒有區分境外跟境內因為他比如他在台灣落地他就要在台灣設立設立相關的機構我想這部分我們是這樣但是現在剛剛委員提到應該是已經在國外運作這些那國人就可以透過網路世界他自己所以他們不用落地不是 他這樣"},{"start":6169.58,"end":6192.76,"text":"因為他沒有在台灣取得這樣一個許可他就沒辦法在台灣比如說做廣告他也沒辦法直接在台灣他有取得台灣的許可了嗎現在的話我們現在所謂的剛剛講幾個我們有國外來申請但是我們這是核准的部分我記得是不是有一家是有外資的我們這9家不是都是本土的嗎"},{"start":6195.773,"end":6217.293,"text":"現在這個九家 八家原來是洗房生民的嘛那現在一家是後來新的這個九家都是本土的對啊 沒有國外的嘛那我的意思是說現在國外的是可以做虛擬資產的服務但是他沒有納管應該這樣 他在境內的話要如果說要經過我們許可才可以在境內做這樣一個服務那他有經過許可嗎我剛才講這個是在"},{"start":6219.859,"end":6242.021,"text":"國界上像比如說我們如果說我們如果在國外旅遊在國外去買一個這東西其實這樣我們就沒辦法或是我自己上網對 那我的意思是說那就是等於我們只納管國內的幣商然後國外的幣商我們沒辦法管理就對了這個要透過國際上面的一些合作再來他比如說在這邊的話我們的金融機構就沒辦法跟他做往來那會不會變成一個打仗的一個破口"},{"start":6242.761,"end":6258.478,"text":"對 這也是全球我們想政府都遇到的那我們要怎麼處理呢那我剛跟委員報告這除了我們自己可以透過我們自己來努力另外還是要透過跨國的合作我是認為說有關於這個國外幣上的管理這部分我們現在好像是沒有"},{"start":6259.209,"end":6284.332,"text":"他可以未來假設這樣他也可以來台灣申請落地有啊現在有很多國外的幣商都有在台灣都有在做相關的服務啊其實如果委員仔細看的話那其實上他們來這邊是應該沒有同時實質的業務沒有實質的業務因為他只是可能在這邊台灣他是不能做的所以他們現在沒有任何的業務就對了不能做我們現在許可的這些業務"},{"start":6285.313,"end":6311.768,"text":"不能做現在許可的業務就對了其實委員可以想像一下就是比如他在海外比如說他的網站是沒有國界的對比如假設我們國人有能力他自己可以在海外有一個戶頭或是自己可以那我們未來對於這些國外的這些幣商有要做什麼樣的一些管理嗎我們當然也是希望說從一個整個綜合管理的概念裡面我們當然希望就像我們現在管理金融機構一樣我們也希望說國人至少在我們的"},{"start":6312.688,"end":6328.629,"text":"瑕疏範圍之內都能夠受到完整的保護嘛對啊 當然是我們的期待對啊 我的意思是說因為我們現在只有規定國內的畢業商現在就是有9家是核可的嘛對不對那其他18家不行嘛那對於國外畢業商我認為說這一塊好像"},{"start":6330.085,"end":6350.771,"text":"國外的第三套主要在台灣像全世界都一樣你要到我們台灣來登記有沒有一樣的道理那所以他們現在是有來登記對 我想我們的法規是open的並沒有說外國人不可以來那現在有多少家國外的B3會來做登記那現在的部分我們現在還在申請中的現在目前沒有目前沒有喔 目前沒有那為什麼不來"},{"start":6351.992,"end":6368.525,"text":"這要看他們就是不來登記就不能做相關的業務就對了他就是等於說必須要你必須要民眾自行去跨進去做這個服務透過網路那我的意思是說這一塊有可能會形成打炸的一個風險"},{"start":6369.646,"end":6389.55,"text":"對我們就會從這個角度因為我們會從我們可以管理到的金融機構的這些通路來做那確實我剛才講說因為我也再三強調在網路世界是沒有國界的對啊好沒關係啊這又變成一個一個循環了就是說我是關心打造這一塊啦好那反正再找時間再來請教好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝彭主委謝謝李昭偉"},{"start":6409.807,"end":6418.309,"text":"好 那我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員好 那等一下下一位是黃珊珊委員黃珊珊委員質詢完之後我們休息十分鐘請主席在場的委員先進列席了政府計劃事項官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請彭主任委員請彭主委委員好"},{"start":6437.356,"end":6452.328,"text":"主委我今天的重點當然標題很清楚但是呢還是不能免俗的從大家最關切的預測說你今天的報告有四大議題關於第二點之前也問到了回答進駐北思科的議題那我們看到您這邊的報告當中寫陷入僵局"},{"start":6452.868,"end":6474.655,"text":"而您關切的是根據保險法第146條之二條投資不動產要及時利用有收益為限在實現內進行開發而且要增加租金收益這樣看起來好像您是對於新售在目前有沒有及時利用有收益還有進行開發關注的是這個角度還是我們應該是關注整個輝達能夠在台灣進駐是個更大的題目"},{"start":6477.725,"end":6491.043,"text":"我想這個國人應該都很期盼外資對台灣特別是對我們未來重點產業我想這個立場應該是國人大概都應該是疑似的是的好那我們來看一下你認為輝達如果進入台灣更能夠將各種的"},{"start":6493.145,"end":6516.133,"text":"創新產業引來台灣那這些創新產業可以成為國際資金投資的標的所以是相互都有幫忙是不是這樣我想任何外部資本的投資對本地的經濟體只要這個方向是正確應該都是有助益的就是雞生蛋單生雞我們有標的讓他投資資金會進來資金進來的就有更多新生產業來爭取這些資金好"},{"start":6516.593,"end":6544.46,"text":"那麼所以輝達是不是相較之下他是一個火車頭他更能夠吸引國際的新創產業來進入台灣對我想這應該會有效果還有他跟國內的這些供應鏈能夠結合的更緊密好那這也是你不斷在就任之後不斷談亞資中心嘛對不對亞資中心要扮演這個角色嘛把資金帶進來然後呢也把新創產業帶進來讓台灣的資金有投資的對象也讓台灣的產業有資金來投資那請問亞資中心目前最準備最衝突的專區在哪裡"},{"start":6545.06,"end":6555.374,"text":"那當然現在我們只有公布一個高雄那個示範只有公布一個高雄亞灣對不對所以說那如果這樣講那麼揮打進駐是不是"},{"start":6556.519,"end":6576.294,"text":"高雄的雅灣是一個非常恰當的地點那我想是尊重他們的專業的考量因為他自己有自己的一些條件的考量我想最近在媒體也講了很多了是 好那麼所以我們認為輝達如果也來落腳雅灣也能夠充分運用到目前金管會在雅灣所配置的這樣環境能夠螺資人才也能夠吸引資金是這樣嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":6578.175,"end":6600.862,"text":"接下來我們來看一下我們現在關心的另外就是新一代清償能力制度ICS還有接軌IFRS7這裡面我們看到了最近大家關心的就是保險業因應近期國際的金融情勢有一個暫行措施對不對這個暫行措施關注的是資本氏族率和匯率的均價制度還有責任準備金的提"},{"start":6601.922,"end":6616.911,"text":"記題的基準調整嘛 對不對那目前的主要變動是怎麼樣有人說這個是一個比較屬於監理的寬容你認為是一個把標準放得比較低一點本來要求考80分現在考70分就好了呢還是你認為"},{"start":6617.931,"end":6635.046,"text":"這整個的制度配套它不是只是監理寬容還有更積極面的意義我想謝謝委員給我這個機會說明我想在4月2號到4月到5月的時候誰也說不清楚未來半年會發生什麼事情但是我們在明年的1月1號是已經確定要接軌兩個制度"},{"start":6636.187,"end":6656.447,"text":"那我們也講過了就是說如果這個中間有產生重大經濟波動的話我們過去所設算的標準都會受到影響所以我們才在那個情況之下制定一個暫行措施第一個我們會講RBC用軍價這個金管會馬上就可以決定但是另外還有一個財報財報是會計準則金管會是沒有辦法更動所以我們用"},{"start":6657.128,"end":6684.035,"text":"用了一種方法就是明年開帳的時候本來就會有一個有利影響數這部分我們在40%額度之內其實這個東西不是說我們額外的那其實他明年他本來就可以收回這一部分所以我們用這個方式來抵禦達到那個匯率均價的效果所以這兩個是一樣的只是說我們這也不是寬容我們是為了因應這樣一個突然的波動我想川普這件這個因素我想再假設你回溯到明年應該沒人會想到這樣"},{"start":6684.955,"end":6709.78,"text":"所以說我們只是希望說做一個監理官穩定市場是最重要的職責之一是監理穩定啦好那我們來看你說的沒有錯這個匯率的不穩定他會造成受險公司首先他過去的保單的資金成本較高比如9%那時候台灣的保單很高但是國內利率偏低所以他不得不到海外去投資他就要換匯可是換匯之後就匯率不穩定他就有避險的成本這個成本是付出去的"},{"start":6710.18,"end":6737.472,"text":"另外它就算有獲利也要到外匯準備金目前的一個模型是這樣沒錯吧對 好 那往下看但是你要知道壽險業資金回台投資不是只有帳面資金為了每年為了避險的外匯成本高達3851億那麼過去的波動也造成了一定的匯率損失那在目前你正式措置之下它的外匯價格變動準備金要提出了3726億我們可以這樣說每年目前在"},{"start":6738.769,"end":6755.145,"text":"避險的成本就要固定的成本就有三千八然後呢機會成本不能拿去用要必須放在我們的準備金的有三千七如果這些錢我能夠有效的把它純潔降低是不是來一字五雅之中心是不是更好其實跟委員報告一下其實如果我們針對"},{"start":6756.266,"end":6784.86,"text":"仔細去研究一下受險公司避險工具跟他經營模式就會看到就是說我們過去十年大概花了兩兆其實兩兆的部分其實並沒有解決我們現在匯率上的問題就代表說這個工具跟他們的真正的風險是不那麼匹配我們才會想說我們是不是好好來檢討一下有一套制度可以這樣來做的時候他可以不用去因為帳面上的波動去避險而把這個錢直接拿來增資所以我想這個反而是強化體質"},{"start":6785.72,"end":6809.374,"text":"支持靜環這樣做法但是我們看到就是這樣過去您聽到了我們的監理跟我們的財務管理如果說我們的資本市足率為了保護的利益我們要做風險管理因此要提立外匯準備有獲利或者說他又不能就不發股利但是就金控我們公司來講他帳面有獲利卻沒有現金他被迫要去舉債以滿足股東權益我們在這裡看到了"},{"start":6810.274,"end":6828.679,"text":"為了股東的財務治理發現金的鼓勵跟為了保護的風險管理產生一個權衡的問題那面對我這個具體的問題譬如說當我們要求對於保護的權益我們進行風險管理要求他有獲利不花鼓勵但是他為了對股東交代他怎麼辦他舉再來發鼓勵你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6834.81,"end":6857.515,"text":"這個委員對這問題研究非常深入啊這個就是凸顯了一個問題理論上來講你有獲利就應該發鼓勵沒有問題但是呢顯然我們這一套會計制度的評價很多的獲利是來自於未實現現在有明年可能就沒有這也是為什麼在發放現金的時候保險局會這麼保守就是帳面上雖然有獲利但是他認為這個東西很多是未實現假如明年匯率波動又沒有了所以"},{"start":6858.155,"end":6887.45,"text":"我們才會很認真來思考這套會計制度所呈現的損益是不是真正的損益所以才是我們的損益我們看到今後母公司他如果不發股利他擔心股東會對他失去信心股價會下跌這個時候又不利於他的機構的展望平等然後如果說他舉債去發現金股利他會造成淨負債比的上升利息保障倍數下降長期的ROE下降還有利率上揚他的資金成本上升削弱他長期的利差到底這樣的一個困境兩難的困境 主委"},{"start":6888.07,"end":6915.145,"text":"您目前用什麼方式來因應所以剛剛委員提到這麼複雜這麼精準的描述其實最重要一點就是就是我們現在衡量受險損益的這個方法顯然有了很大的跟實質的落差我剛才提到你的現金任何一個行業各位都知道我今年的損益多少我就發多少股利經過股東大會這樣就沒有問題了但是為什麼在一個受險業會產生這個問題還會產生奇怪明明獲利還要去舉債發現金"},{"start":6917.366,"end":6938.654,"text":"所以這個就是一個很癥結的問題我了解目前好像保發中心承擔這樣的重責大任那天我們三個都在場那我們再聽一下目前是不是保發中心在幫忙做這樣的一個試做一個試算是過去我們一直都是希望借重保發的一些的精算統計數據來幫我們做這些事好那我來想我打個比方啦您是老師嘛"},{"start":6939.694,"end":6961.721,"text":"結果如果老師校長告訴說你全班要歐帕至少讓他可以補考那你考卷怎麼出班上20個同學國英數理化大家的能力高低都不一樣你英文出高了對那個英文差的人不公平你數學出簡單的對數學厲害的人不公平所以除了考卷全班20個同學那麼多學生專長不同還要維持排名不變還要全員及格你覺得這個老師有辦法做得到嗎"},{"start":6963.032,"end":6976.52,"text":"當然很挑戰我們當老師就是每天都在想這些事情所以這也是你的目標當然我們希望達到公平接軌跟所謂的信賴保護接軌是 那麼我們先舉一個特別的案例母家"},{"start":6978.527,"end":7002.772,"text":"人壽他目前呢在招親希望人家去欣賞他但是這些標準在調控的當中會影響到他的代價額估的一個表現那你們怎麼辦所以我們想說盡快把遊戲規則確定以方便這個各方做評估所以這裡面有寫到接軌ICS我們跑到中心說RBC未達門檻的人可個案申請是這樣"},{"start":7004.401,"end":7028.109,"text":"對就是我們希望就是說這部分因為新制度是希望大家都能走下但是該兼顧到的公平比如說你以前的增資或是一些資本缺口還是不會因為接軌而消失那剛剛提到了那目前的要接軌這個新一代新廠能力的過渡措施那是由保發中心在十月中要發布那十月中就快到了"},{"start":7029.389,"end":7057.824,"text":"主委認為承擔這個重責大任的出題老師可以達到你的目標嗎排名不變然後大家都歐帕我想我們現在應該是現在都已經大概在做法制作業了應該是很快就如果說快的話就這一兩天會跟大家做那對於這樣的結果您保持怎麼樣的一個期待樂觀全盤歐帕排名不變還是有一家兩家要補考我想情況不一樣"},{"start":7059.184,"end":7087.06,"text":"容留明天我們再或是這兩天再跟大家做報告不過要跟大家做報告很好對基本上剛剛委員提到我們剛才講我們公平的接軌信賴保護的接軌這部分因為我們是用一個更嚴格的標準我們希望我們的受請業越來越好其實很多市場在解讀說其實這樣是不是比較放寬其實不是就是因為我們新的制度很嚴格所以我們要用一段時間讓我們的受請公司能夠調整的往上走就像爬階梯一樣"},{"start":7087.56,"end":7104.532,"text":"好 謝謝主委 您過去是學生心目中的好老師希望未來我們所推出來的制度也能讓這些各家的保險公司都認為您是個稱職的好主委 謝謝絕對會希望學生都變成好學生 優秀的學生 謝謝好 我們謝謝鍾委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員好 謝謝主席 我想請彭主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":7120.215,"end":7120.236,"text":"喂好"},{"start":7120.874,"end":7149.8,"text":"是主委長我想今天大家都非常關心打炸從我們上任之後主委到這邊我們修了很多法那內政部警政署165的打炸儀表板到今年1到7月還是有高達14.4萬件那財損金額是700多億那今天看到報紙頭條又有一個醫生的太太被騙了3000多萬主委打炸的成果我想大家都非常努力但是打炸"},{"start":7151.02,"end":7165.986,"text":"當然不應該是在事後善後所以我們應該事前防範但是我們做了這麼多的宣導還有這麼多詐騙您的感想是什麼我想我們到底該再做些什麼"},{"start":7166.786,"end":7183.525,"text":"我想這個涉及到很多層面就以我們金管會的角度來看的話我們盡量要讓我們的這些金融帳戶不會變成是犯罪的工具再來就是我們要加強大家對金融投資的這些的素養"},{"start":7184.426,"end":7205.921,"text":"然後知道能夠試詐能夠辨識 觀念跟程序跟相關的事情大家都沒有概念所以就一步一步錯然後甚至拿房地產去抵押再借更多的錢去被騙好想諸位我們大家都很努力有打詐是政府的重中之重那金管會尤其是銀行其實已經非常努力那現在也積極用各種方法"},{"start":7206.661,"end":7231.649,"text":"那第一線的基層其實很辛苦除了民眾莫名其妙會生氣說你幹嘛要管我錢到哪裡去現在的問題就是我上次您來拜會的時候來說了其實很多的民眾現在碰到的是銀行真的管很寬管很多管到他們受到生活上很大的影響那網路上面有很多人已經講了我們這邊也接到很多陳情案其實有很多的案子非常的簡單但是現在的問題是"},{"start":7234.41,"end":7260.475,"text":"第一銀行現在非常積極所以用AI來做相關異常帳戶的控管第二他發現異常他就鎖帳戶這是我們新的法給他的授權但是有些銀行可能過於積極所以造成了很多民眾的困擾這邊舉兩個案子第一個是有一個民眾他的育兒今天去申請通過了但是他的帳戶被鎖了然後最重要的是沒人告訴他"},{"start":7261.975,"end":7279.025,"text":"有很多人他的賬戶是有扣款的比如說有扣停車費有扣甚至定期定額的投資款這些受到影響的人民眾的反應最嚴重的是被鎖不明原因也就算了連告知都沒有"},{"start":7279.825,"end":7292.148,"text":"所以當他碰到被吹討相關費用的時候他才知道他被鎖帳第二個是有很多民眾他可能是團購主所以他會接到很多的帳戶轉帳過來的幾百塊的錢可這樣的情況也會馬上被鎖住而這樣的狀況他要拿出跟團購者一個一個對話的記錄銀行才讓他解鎖"},{"start":7303.82,"end":7320.207,"text":"沒錯 打仗很重要所以主委我們有打仗有需要到搞不清楚狀況然後連告知都不做的嗎我想就是我們在這個是不是要事前告知或事後告知這件事情你鎖了我你總要告訴我吧"},{"start":7320.883,"end":7341.632,"text":"對就是說我們現在已經大概你事前告知怕被詐團利用沒關係但是鎖完之後要不要告訴當事人一下對這一點的話我們會有跟銀行這邊溝通至少要告知我覺得無論如何你鎖完之後至少要告知不要等到人家被扣款扣不到的時候才知道現在很嚴重的還有那種可能是交割款違約交割誰負責"},{"start":7344.71,"end":7367.218,"text":"据我所知现在他们会用简讯跟email通知客户是 第二个告知完之后其实最严重的是他要解锁的方法非常的复杂每个银行不一样你要拿出你他就把你当诈团你要拿出你跟团购的人像我们很多好朋友一起出去爬山我们可能会一起付一笔钱之后勾带去然后再汇款给"},{"start":7368.258,"end":7388.46,"text":"那個付錢的人像這種情況可能現在都會被認為他可能收取不明來源的銀行帳戶主委我不是說不要打詐而是打詐之後的第一動作要告知第二解鎖的方式要能夠讓民眾比較方便你知道銀行的客服有多難打嗎"},{"start":7389.437,"end":7392.78,"text":"我只要打個客服我大概都要等一二十分鐘你打過嗎每一個都給你用語音錫箱請你慢慢等候沒有十分鐘是接不起來的所以如果解凍這麼困難每一個都要去現場才能解凍你覺得這樣的打炸不是只是打炸啊它在擾民啊"},{"start":7407.23,"end":7430.723,"text":"對我想剛才委員還有幾位委員這樣的一個要求我們都虛心接受因為其實我們在做這個事我明白我們不是要接受我們希望你能找出方法金管會可以跟銀行公會討論出一個好你要動沒問題那是解凍的方法SOP讓民眾知道我要去哪裡投訴我要去哪裡找辦法"},{"start":7431.683,"end":7447.182,"text":"這個我們已經在持續在做了我想從第一次發生這個問題在接下來我想如果仔細觀察其實確實他們銀行也在優化中希望進度不要再發生這種莫名其妙然後連告知都沒有的事件當然這是我們的"},{"start":7448.684,"end":7471.147,"text":"那個要求也是我們的理想這邊跟委員報告一下就是說我在這邊還是要再再度的重申剛才講說我們對銀行做這件事我們還是絕對的支持但是方法我們也支持啊對對對就是說其實支持的情況下要讓銀行跟客戶之間還有客戶良善的客戶不要受到太多的打擾當然這是我們的"},{"start":7472.287,"end":7487.594,"text":"我們一定會朝這個方向來努力剛才講說委員剛才講比如說電話難打的問題告知的問題我們會馬上回去請他們趕快來做你打一次銀行客服你就知道多難打了我相信一般的民眾大概沒有等個十分鐘是接不起來的"},{"start":7488.354,"end":7503.623,"text":"當然銀行的客服人員現在我們現在是這種方法是讓客服更累啊他們已經很累了現在更累我希望這個部分是一件好事但是同樣的你這種AI的方式有些銀行宣稱他們有攔阻了50%的詐騙但是相對的有50%的人受到困擾"},{"start":7507.805,"end":7529.272,"text":"好嗎對 當然我想這個是我們努力的方向所以重點是我們要打詐的方法要稍微聰明一點讓正常的人能夠正常的生活而不是有的人連自己轉賬給自己也要被問你為什麼自己轉賬給自己因為你自己轉賬給自己你可能就是被拿出來當洗人這種把每個人都當詐團的方法並不好"},{"start":7532.173,"end":7559.239,"text":"我想這個案例很多我也常常自己轉給自己我的新轉賬戶我轉到我的股票賬戶就這麼簡單沒有為什麼我要自己轉給自己我覺得至少不要讓人家覺得你把每個人都當詐騙集團我想他們也不是想這麼做問話的方法可以更好一點設定的項目可以更精準一點這個是絕對的一定朝這個方向來走"},{"start":7559.819,"end":7574.69,"text":"另外一個問題就是金管會在去年說針對汽車強制險的保險費率也就是我上次質詢主委的台灣其實我們有蠻嚴重的金融歧視尤其是在汽車險男性女性不一樣然後我們只有針對"},{"start":7576.291,"end":7601.862,"text":"車主來做相關的處罰你這是出國險所以你下一三年都會很貴所以很多人就是用別人的名字來買車所以造成了車責跟開車的人都不一樣買車的人是太太開車的人是老公造了事的是兒子然後可是三個人的費率只有那個買車的太太被受到影響這是一個什麼樣的制度這很離譜啊"},{"start":7602.722,"end":7625.128,"text":"所以主委你們說今年要做處理處理的狀況如何現在的演繹到什麼程度好 謝謝我想這我們一直都在處理我請那個王局長來跟您做個簡單是 金融歧視應該消除尤其是我相信性別不該是歧視第二個我上次跟主委說過的我們希望在金融面前人人平等是"},{"start":7626.488,"end":7642.558,"text":"報告委員這個部分那個因為行政院那邊有列管考那我們這個從人因素的這部分是我需要時間表我們在今年底以前今年年底以前報告來跟行政院應該要根據駕駛人他的"},{"start":7643.338,"end":7671.493,"text":"行為來做差別費率的條件之前我們希望產險業者做UBI車險的部分要透過他的行為來判斷這件事情保險局還要不要繼續推這部分保險公司的設計上面我們其實都沒有限制他們如果有去他們可以推但是希望你們金管會應該有一個自己的立場我們這個是鼓勵的立場鼓勵的立場希望繼續推 諸葦蕾"},{"start":7674.434,"end":7703.486,"text":"我想我在學校使用者習慣很重要我在學校就非常支持就是應該是用預防性的保單就是應該是跟風險做連結是他用風險高的人他本來就應該付高保費而不是拿人頭在這邊轉來轉去另外一個是上一次我跟主委說其實台灣的保險金融科技已經非常進步而且現在區塊鏈技術也很成熟我們在台北市政府的時候110年就跟壽險工會合作跟醫院"},{"start":7704.446,"end":7726.495,"text":"在診斷證明用區塊鏈的方式來取得當事人同意保險公會可以直接去醫院拿到診斷證明不需要再要這些生病的人去奔波同樣的我上次也問過了如果這個技術是成熟的我們應該是不是在產險我們現在有919萬的汽車1000多萬輛的機車每一個都有強制險它發生事故的時候其實只有一個就是"},{"start":7734.378,"end":7753.346,"text":"警政單位的相關的報案記錄這個東西它其實也可以透過區塊鏈的方式達到安全只要當事人同意保險工會就直接可以取得所謂的相關的保險理賠這件事情我問過金管會金管會說還不知道民眾自己停工比較好但是5月5號你們回我5月27號金管會的記者會"},{"start":7757.188,"end":7786.36,"text":"金融科技產業聯盟的國泰金控說將要運用產險聯盟區塊鏈來串接醫療場所跟警政單位的資料將三方資料匯成單一系統平台主委金管會說還是當事人提供但是國泰金控說我們要串聯請問金管會要不要幫忙他們串聯內政部警政署所有相關車險如果可以的話又可以省掉很多馬路上面的動作"},{"start":7786.88,"end":7809.065,"text":"那當然啊 其實像比如受險的部分 他們有理賠一起通是 理賠一起通現在已經有四十幾家加入了所以這是做得到的 不是做不到只要當事人同意就可以取得現在問題就是你要不要去協助他們跟內政部警政單位做連結要不要讓他們能夠串接而已"},{"start":7811.584,"end":7827.723,"text":"因為李培己通我們自己跟醫院就可以做到醫院也是我們去拜託衛福部拜託相關的單位來促成的車子的碰撞或是事故可能攸關到一些責任"},{"start":7828.123,"end":7855.448,"text":"沒關係 我們只需要串接警政單位的報案紀錄而已對 就是這部分我們跟會跟內政部其他再溝通一下所以我需要你給我一個時間表我希望你是快 他們有一個不一樣的考量因為你們5月5號給我的回文說你們不處理啦沒有 我想說這個是一個進步的方向因為否則我們在路上看到很多的車子就為了一個小時會停在那邊嘛 是好不好 所以我只需要時間我希望在今年年底以前有一個具體的進度"},{"start":7856.508,"end":7863.953,"text":"好 那我想今年年底前我們會把溝通的結果跟委員報告好 謝謝我們謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請李燕秀委員謝謝 請主委 可以了嗎好 我們請彭主委委員好"},{"start":7879.511,"end":7894.778,"text":"谢谢主委我关心了几个议题其实有几个其实之前几位我也已经关注过但是我最后还是有几个建议包括这个银行AI打炸变成扰民的议题我也整理了在TRE上面民众对于几个"},{"start":7896.119,"end":7901.067,"text":"銀行凍結帳戶的一些意見包括莫名其妙的被凍結影響到後續交割還有包括裡面只有165塊就被凍結還有包括兩年被凍結被鎖卡鎖了三次"},{"start":7911.443,"end":7939.523,"text":"所以包括之前委員的一些建議包括小額平凡的交易低餘額久未往來賬戶都會被銀行判定為高風險那當然我也關注到主委您在上個星期有表示幾個星期前有表示說其實銀行也是受害者過程當中您也給我們金融業者許多的支持那也強調說力挺銀行鎖卡後事後可以通知但是我還是有幾個具體的建議因為有一些銀行他的鎖卡的機制"},{"start":7940.564,"end":7959.086,"text":"那個流程非常的繁雜有些是莫名其妙就說有一些它有一定的標準流程也就是說每個銀行鎖卡凍結的那個程度方式不太一樣所以我有幾個建議直接建議給主委就是說未來對於AI的詐騙的系統我們必須要提高"},{"start":7959.867,"end":7975.278,"text":"準確度它那個一致性各銀行應該有一個標準不要有些銀行那個標準非常的高有一些非常的低這都不是我們願意見到的所以我覺得未來準確度的部分減少誤判我覺得要有一個SOP我希望今晚會可以輔導"},{"start":7976.738,"end":7990.947,"text":"第二凍結以後應該用多元的管道通知讓帳戶所有人可以很快速的得到這個資訊還有具體的原因到底是什麼並且可以通知他到底是因為太頻繁進出還是被盜還是什麼樣的原因然後解鎖的步驟我覺得更應該明確的讓帳戶所有人知道然後解鎖的時間有一些解鎖時間甚至到兩三個月才有辦法再打開帳戶再可以使用"},{"start":8006.156,"end":8016.002,"text":"所以對很多人來說我可能只有這麼一個賬戶我可能牽涉到我可能要支付一些我使用的賬目的問題所以未來解鎖時間是不是應該再調整一下什麼是一個合理的時間範圍我覺得應該做溝通接下來第四點就是強化政策的溝通未來如何讓民眾知道高風險的交易型態降低被凍結的機率"},{"start":8032.211,"end":8049.832,"text":"這是以上我對於這個議題四點的建議我希望在短時間之內一個月之內請主委更明確化能公告給所有的人知道這一點可以嗎謝謝委員剛剛這個一二三四我初步看起來都非常有建設性除了第四個我也有小小的顧慮以外"},{"start":8050.333,"end":8072.585,"text":"沒關係你就回去檢討然後三個禮拜一個月之內公告給所有的民眾知道那第二個我要請問一下有關上市櫃公司未來包括我們徵集會有一個標準的評鑑制度這是我長期所關注我想主委非常清楚我們評鑑的指標有四大區塊我想我就不用再做贅述主委可能比我還要了解"},{"start":8074.826,"end":8092.942,"text":"當然這個評鑑現在也都讓所有上市商會公司非常的重視因為包括櫃買公司治理的指數這些評鑑其實現在外界都非常的重視所以就114年度我們公司治理的指標當中第4.3項我們必須揭露當年永續發展ESG具體的推動計畫跟實施的成效"},{"start":8100.809,"end":8123.06,"text":"當然ESG裡面我們有分六大項未來可以去努力的方向包括海洋保育 原鄉的一些合作產學合作 庇護工廠跟高齡友善 多元語言 六大項指標那我是不是可以建議主委就是說未來我們可不可以增加一些評鑑的項目來更完善所謂的評鑑的一些內容"},{"start":8124.321,"end":8150.398,"text":"包括我長期在提的其實教育是百年的大忌我們目前全國在公立的高國中國小當中其實在九二一大地震之後我們全台灣在校舍的部分超過五十年其實有兩千兩百棟超過三十年有八千三百棟這些都已經達到應該改建或者很多都是海沙的校舍"},{"start":8151.278,"end":8172.459,"text":"或者是他耐震的指數沒有達到那個標準但是我們有礙於我們現在經費其實都沒有辦法改建所以我非常期望就是說未來我們ESG永續的部分至少在公立的高國中國小未來我們是不是有可能在4.3項以下的範例加上投入教育部所定義的"},{"start":8173.3,"end":8184.778,"text":"公立的高中以下的學校老舊校舍的整建作為未來評鑑的項目之一我們有沒有機會朝向這樣的指標來做努力"},{"start":8185.712,"end":8202.014,"text":"我想委員我們也討論過我是個人是支持這個方向而且我也去了解一下實務上我們過去也有好幾個案例都是做這件事情而且也列入到現在已經有案例已經完成的是"},{"start":8204.036,"end":8227.439,"text":"也列入在他們的報告也是列為加分事項主委 我想很多上市商會公司可能還不清楚原來這些也可以做因為我們現在大家都知道各縣市很多特別偏鄉它在經費上 財源上是不足的所以針對很多學校應該改建老舊校舍改建 海沙校舍的改建我們都希望加快腳步"},{"start":8228.3,"end":8256.292,"text":"那中央可以給藝術的財源也有限未來主要計畫這個主要計畫的項目到底可以協助多少都還不知道如果增加這永續的項目很清楚的名列在下面的話我相信很多上市商會公司他也很願意支持公部門校舍的改建所以這一塊我希望是很具體化的文字寫在寫的落實更清楚主委可不可以朝向這樣的方式去修正在4.3"},{"start":8258.533,"end":8284.123,"text":"我剛剛講過就是我支持這個方向因為主要是我覺得教育是一個在ESGS部分非常重要的區塊那我們講怎麼樣在現有的這個制度上面把這個類似這樣的範例可以把它放上去我想這部分我們朝這個方向來做只是他在檢討指標會一定的時程每年每年這樣我想朝向這個方向應該是可以的所以我們下次檢討是什麼時候因為"},{"start":8286.204,"end":8302.233,"text":"因為上次講完以後他們會已經開完了今年這樣但是這個已經是在過去已經有案例所以其實今年也是能夠做所以我覺得我們就加強讓他們大家都很清楚知道其實過去已經有上市櫃公司已經我至少看到兩個例子都已經有做這件事情"},{"start":8302.893,"end":8318.915,"text":"好那主委我最後一個議題就是有關於我們純網營的部分那有關於純網營我們現在開放的部分因為純網營他的他目前他虧損的狀況其實非常嚴重大概虧損累積到85億那相較於同期在今年度跟去年度"},{"start":8319.675,"end":8349.215,"text":"相比年損也增加了20亿左右那当然他营收目前只能靠利息跟手续费的收入但是我们观察在包括在日本他开放的项目其实经营非常的多我也很高兴看到主委对于未来政策的松绑那目前我们未来是就是说未来业务是可以先不要提计划事半的项目我们可以做一些解编那未来就是说主委您对于网营的开放的部分"},{"start":8349.815,"end":8364.327,"text":"除了你目前所宣示的之外未來在政策輔導上法規的鬆綁上您還有什麼樣的不同的做法我們可以期待我想就是當時我們開放這個網路金融包括我們即將開放的"},{"start":8365.208,"end":8379.969,"text":"那個數位保險公司都一樣我們是支持這個數位金融因為市場上需要多元化 多樣化而且是一些比較前瞻式的這樣經營模式但是我們要兼顧市場經營的公平性所以我上任以後我就跟銀行局提到就是說"},{"start":8381.911,"end":8403.411,"text":"這個三家網銀也是200億資本額的這個完整的銀行那我們盡量的就是讓他維持到他一定的創新性的前提那個承諾之下我們盡量的去做一些跟跟一般銀行的業務能夠盡量做對標那在四度的時候我們就做做一些放寬我想希望他們能夠能夠"},{"start":8406.461,"end":8411.688,"text":"保有他們的我們當初開放純網營的要求但是也希望他有個公平的競爭"},{"start":8413.072,"end":8433.317,"text":"公平的競爭然後彈性靈活度可以協助銀行也好網營業者也好其實我們過去已經對他的業務特別是他線下的業務我們已經做了很多很多的放寬他們也都我們也持續跟他們定期的跟工會做互動了解我們在法規面如何適時的去做調整我想是有必要的謝謝主委謝謝謝謝謝謝李委員謝謝彭主委我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9064.342,"end":9066.505,"text":"現在宣布繼續開會接下來我們請王世堅委員王委員可以匆匆忙忙沒有關係"},{"start":9097.694,"end":9121.248,"text":"好 謝謝主席我就照你說的匆匆忙忙對你來講 有刃有餘我先喘口氣金管會不要這一個匆匆忙忙就好好 謝謝主席我請金管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委委員好 彭主委是"},{"start":9122.318,"end":9142.208,"text":"我們行政院卓院長施政報告開宗明義第一章就是寫要把我們台灣打造成為亞洲資產管理中心這非常的好但是我們有一個大的問題我記得在您一上任那時候我就去年六月我就跟你提"},{"start":9142.848,"end":9166.998,"text":"就是說我們國內保險業可運用資金的餘額高達35兆之多其中70%有25兆竟然是放在海外購買國外的債券或者基金諸位如果說我們呼籲外國把資產"},{"start":9168.874,"end":9171.998,"text":"交給我們台灣管理結果我們台灣自己70%"},{"start":9175.319,"end":9198.997,"text":"的資金是用在國外買債券基金那我們對人家怎麼說服我們自己70%給別人管然後要別人說你的資產給我們台灣管這不是很怪嗎那我們要說服哪些國家說服非洲嗎 肯亞嗎這是很奇怪的事其次"},{"start":9200.84,"end":9220.376,"text":"這購買海外的債券跟基金當時我們就說到有兩大風險一個戰爭一個匯率嘛結果這兩大就在我們講的去年之後沒幾個月都發生了戰爭俄國大家知道我們國內有三大受險公司五大受險公司"},{"start":9221.256,"end":9245.334,"text":"買了俄國1380億的債券後來陸續到期到期的部分俄國的答覆很簡單等我戰爭打完了再來算這筆錢戰爭的因素跑出來了匯率在今年的5月我們對美金的匯率那個台幣大幅度的"},{"start":9246.585,"end":9255.784,"text":"升值的結果光單月將近兩千億兩千億的損失耶天啊所以"},{"start":9258.446,"end":9283.746,"text":"戰爭跟匯率我們都碰到了所以當時我就說我們海外資金上限70%可以到我們的受險資金有70%的上限可以到海外去這個部分我們應該調降我們應該適度的趕快導引這些保險資金讓它回到我們台灣那結果當時"},{"start":9287.537,"end":9315.491,"text":"貴會的答覆是說有啦找了這些保險公司談這些保險公司說兩個原因第一個原因說我們台灣利率太低第二個台灣市場太小他們意思是說他們也是情不得已出去但是主委你不曉得記不記得當時我就說這兩個原因都不成理由啦第一個你說我們台灣利率低我承認我們台灣利率是低但是"},{"start":9316.604,"end":9330.109,"text":"你這些受險公司也是以我們台灣這麼低的利率下去當期望值做成產品賣給我們國內的保險的大眾所以利率低你不能講"},{"start":9332.5,"end":9360.167,"text":"你期望值也低 你的產品也低不是嗎 第二個他們說我們台灣的市場太小所以當時主委我就拜託貴會後來我也拜託財政部就是說我請貴會跟財政部都要趕快輔導我們國內這些需要建設的部會比方說內政部 交通部 衛福部衛福部他們有長照啊"},{"start":9361.567,"end":9384.543,"text":"交通部有各項的交通建設 鐵路 公路 高速公路各地方的捷運 這都是需要資金的啊我們引導他們進來 我們設交通債券 交通公債 內政我們有社會住宅等等嘛 那不管設宅"},{"start":9386.614,"end":9414.113,"text":"長照或者未來開通的捷運自償性都很高也付得起這些利息所以我說要趕快做所以我今天要問你的問題就是說到底這一年來我們輔導了有哪一些部會有沒有去準備好去成立哪一些建設公債建設基金有還是沒有第二點這個讓保險資金去海外"},{"start":9415.134,"end":9428.523,"text":"的這個比例是不是要從70%下降下調因為在國外看起來就不可思議耶中國啊我們對岸中國跟我們競爭的中國只有2%我們70%韓國8.3%美國12%只有日本高一點日本高一點也不到我們1 3日本21.6天啊"},{"start":9441.658,"end":9465.089,"text":"只有我們台灣70%這麼高所以這兩個問題我想請教主委有做了嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來回答這個問題其實我們也很希望我們受險業長期要降低海外的投資的比重因為我們現在受險面臨到一個叫做避別的不匹配"},{"start":9466.189,"end":9493.603,"text":"因為他的負債跟他資產不一致所以會面臨到匯率跟利率的風險這是一個但是因為他已經長期投在海外不可能短期就把它匯回來台灣有剛剛委員提到很重要台灣沒有這麼多的工具像比如說他們投的最重要的投固定收益現在大概已經將近20兆的這樣一個金額在台灣其實我們整年所有的公債跟債券市場沒辦法很快吸納所以我們想法就至少你新錢"},{"start":9494.764,"end":9522.634,"text":"每年他會收到的薪錢大概是兩兆左右的錢我們盡量找工具剛剛委員提到我們做了什麼比如說我們也希望說能夠有一個比如說第一個我們鬆綁法規讓我們的受請公司的這個資金本來交給國外投資能夠交給自己的投信來投資這是一個再來就是我們的兆元投資計畫裡面我們也提出很多很多方案我們甚至請交易所櫃買成立一個資本服務團去協助這些公司力單位去證券化債券化"},{"start":9524.054,"end":9545.405,"text":"然後還有像很多地方這種發綠債那我們希望說盡量把這個這個政府剛剛委員提到比如說假設我們也曾經嘗試過把高速公路的收費能不能把它做個證券化也都在跟各個部會在做協商因為這個部分還要花點時間我主委我很感謝貴會你們有做這些努力啦那成果呢 到現在成果怎麼樣"},{"start":9546.105,"end":9562.03,"text":"其實我們現在陸陸續續有一些啦但是還沒辦法吸納我們的這麼大的受險資金因為很多部會他的心態他就是變於形式嘛反正要建設的錢很簡單預算編了就有啊"},{"start":9566.26,"end":9593.491,"text":"大家便於形式嘛就從大筆一揮從預算下去編但是我們不應該只是單向的從預算不是這樣嗎我們應該適度的因為需要有時間嘛慢慢的就像你剛剛講不能一下子回來他也不可能一下子回來但是我們每年導引3% 5%這對我們導引預注這些資金回來建設我們自己台灣這才是正確的嘛"},{"start":9594.471,"end":9622.788,"text":"不是嗎所以沒有具體的結果就對了現在等於說因為受險人資金整體是非常龐大國內要找尋這些涉及到公件的案例確實是沒有那麼容易過去蔡英文總統的時候我看她過去那八年他們也是到後來才警覺這個事情嚴重他們有去說服交通部有成立了七檔交通建設的"},{"start":9624.806,"end":9651.166,"text":"資金啦 債券雖然那個金額不算大都大概數十億之多但是聊勝於無這是一個開始嘛他們有七檔八年做了七檔所以我希望在你這麼專業認真之下你帶領的團隊能夠趕快跟我們這些相關部會去做協調這是我們努力的方向那其次就是關於這個詐騙的部分這個"},{"start":9654.008,"end":9662.796,"text":"我們這些逃逸的外勞還有逃逸失聯甚至工作渠道的外勞那他們就把這個戶頭就賣給這些詐騙集團那本來這本來數字不大從2022年的521案"},{"start":9673.626,"end":9702.663,"text":"逐年增加9211862一直到今年6月統計已經超過2000戶2054戶啦那當然我們也祭出重罰說這個可以把他罰100萬以下這個最高會判3年以下可是可是主委光是重罰甚至關他都沒用他人都出境啦人都出境那難道我們要怎樣"},{"start":9703.243,"end":9726.008,"text":"要去引渡他來我們台灣嗎這都是不可能的事情所以我認為這些事情知識體大我也詢問了我們相關金管會的同仁們他們是說有找勞動部下去談但是我覺得這個部分可能談得還不夠徹底我覺得當然勞動部他似乎不積極"},{"start":9727.328,"end":9755.674,"text":"不積極所以我希望跟勞動部談你們跟他們談清楚就是說在這件事情上面開戶所謂的外勞他們的自己財產管理的這一部分的權利人權這個應該擺在一邊為什麼因為不管他是期限已經到了要回國或者他都已經失聯了簡單的方式就把這個戶頭切斷就好嘛"},{"start":9756.334,"end":9782.787,"text":"切斷就好人家失聯逃逸的他失聯逃逸他還不敢用這個戶頭啊請他的雇主也一定現金給他嘛不是嗎所以這樣子的外勞他剛好順便把這個戶頭賣掉就算了所以這樣子的情況下不要在那邊一直考量說外勞也有他的人權他有他的權利去管理他的資金"},{"start":9783.927,"end":9810.838,"text":"這個一切都在他失聯之後甚至期滿回國以後就要簡單明瞭把它斷線這個也可以載入到勞動部載入到跟外勞引進的合約裡面就可以寫這麼清楚好不好我希望你們跟勞動部因為我知道現在在阻撓的都勞動部啊不積極的都勞動部你跟勞動部講清楚"},{"start":9813.256,"end":9836.457,"text":"說這個事情知識體大不要再用那些有的沒有的藉口就是不要把簡單的事情複雜化好不好謝謝我們會朝著努力我們也看到我們是從去年我們就開始有對接移民署這些的外籍的那個警示帳戶的比例從高峰已經開始往下走那我們會來持續跟其他部會一起來努力"},{"start":9837.257,"end":9857.171,"text":"我剛看到的數字我念的數字都是往上爬啦當然有往下的數字當然是好啦八月已經下降下來了因為我們管控措施也慢慢看到一些成效我們會努力謝謝王委員 謝謝主委接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":9878.001,"end":9881.277,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請主委請彭主委"},{"start":9887.42,"end":9908.167,"text":"這次非常感謝業務報告裡面有一個非常明確的加速金融科技創新與發展的項目那我們也一直都非常關注金管會長期在推動現實世界資產RWA代幣化的相關的一些細節那我們也看到裡面有說有10家的金融機構還有相關的這個機構有參與"},{"start":9909.628,"end":9929.883,"text":"以國內外的債券代幣化為標的進行所謂的Proof of Concept這個POC的測試那9月25號有完成期末實證的報告那這個相信內部可能有一些機密我們也不好所許但是想請教一下主委這個報告的結果怎麼樣有沒有符合原先的預期"},{"start":9931.522,"end":9948.881,"text":"是 各位報告我想這個裡面的兩次一個期中報告一跟期末報告都全程參與我都全程的去聽他們怎麼做那期中報告的時候呢先提出了他大概未來怎麼運作期末報告呢他已經大概就是模擬事情大概"},{"start":9949.662,"end":9961.886,"text":"在技術上應該都沒有問題那接下來就是我們是要討論它的落地的商模跟現行制度的比較還有就是說我們未來由誰來參與這件事情還有就是說我們有兩個一個是"},{"start":9964.747,"end":9987.695,"text":"基金還有一個債券的部分看哪個比較有可能剛好在那個過程剛好WF也出了報告他們未來的預估很多全球對這個看法可能債券是現階段比較有可能來做的但我們現在因為做完報告我們在接下來就跟委員報告就是我們接下來會看剛剛講後續的話我們怎麼樣做特別是未來也會搭配我們現在虛擬資產"},{"start":9989.996,"end":10004.967,"text":"這個專法裡面怎麼結合因為這兩是互為像比如未來的穩定幣也會跟RW有密切的關係是相輔相成謝謝主委不過我想您剛剛有提到是以債券為主不過我要那是那個報告提到的"},{"start":10005.347,"end":10023.916,"text":"是我要跟您分享其實從監管會的角度既然要做亞洲資產中心同時又要向創新靠齊也跟您報告跟您分享美國納茲達克在今年的9月初有向監管機構去提出申請不只要做債券的代幣化也要做股票的代幣化"},{"start":10024.756,"end":10044.398,"text":"所以我想請教一下有沒有機會去討論一下這一塊的可能性因為我們剛剛 您剛剛有提到專法那我們的VEX的專法的第三條則是把有價證券的部分排除那有價證券有沒有可能用RWA的方式來做那這個部分可不可以請主委做個回應"},{"start":10045.186,"end":10066.166,"text":"其實我們在那個虛擬資產專訪裡面也有大概所謂的那個實驗條例的適用我想這部分我們也保留了這樣的一個這個窗口那確實虛擬資產到底是不是有價證券要看因為我們當時很多討論就是你原來是什麼接下來就是什麼原來不是什麼不會因為這樣變成什麼我想大概是一個我們有諮詢學者專家來看"},{"start":10069.409,"end":10094.592,"text":"那確實未來比如說這個RWA以後呢我們也看到國際上非常非常多嘗試比如像基金像Blade Rock基金就做很成功他結合他穩定幣這個parking的時候他可以做到因為他不能收利息嘛所以RWA大家都在全球都在思考他的應用面但我們也是會仔細看看各個世界怎麼運用他我們來決定我們接下來怎麼走"},{"start":10094.997,"end":10115.44,"text":"好謝謝主委我想股票代幣化或證券的代幣化有很多的優點包括可能交易的時間可以放長還有降低投資門檻結算效率增加等等那我們也希望真的要向全世界去看齊不要我們到最後台灣反而變成是末班車我們現在應該要去思考如何後發先至"},{"start":10116.241,"end":10143.704,"text":"那至於您剛剛有提到的現在實體世界怎麼樣虛擬世界又怎麼樣我想最重要的重點應該還在於機會我想風險跟機會的均衡還是希望主委一起做個考慮那剛剛您也提到這個穩定幣那我想穩定幣其實是現在大家非常非常關注的那不過您有提到這個貨幣型的穩定幣為主那這個優先開放受到高度監理的金融機構來試行"},{"start":10145.285,"end":10162.186,"text":"那我想請教一下其實現在看起來像美國的Genius法案我想你一定也有研究那美國是受聯邦或州政府認可即可那我想請教當VASP的專法通過了以後既然這些VASP的業者都已經獲得金管會的許可"},{"start":10163.948,"end":10183.27,"text":"那未來主委有沒有考慮評估一下讓未來這些合規的VASP業者也能夠有機會有穩定幣的發行權雖然不能同步但有沒有一個時程或可以考量的空間所以我想委員應該也有非常清楚我們的那個專法草案裡面的條文並沒有限定"},{"start":10184.031,"end":10205.562,"text":"只有金融機構我們也是參考GENIUS或跟MECA的這個規定但是我們想說因為台灣我們是採用謹慎友好不冒進但不落後的這樣的一個態度所以我們大概剛開始我在很多地方也有發表個人的看法我們會先從比較高度監管的那個金融業但我們並沒有排除因為法規本來就沒有做這個限制"},{"start":10205.967,"end":10226.113,"text":"太好了我想如果能夠有更多類別的RWA做代幣化同時呢又有新台幣的穩定幣我想對於整個未來的金融的交易會有非常大新的彈性的空間甚至不管是我們的量體提升也好甚至是我們現在的月配息有沒有變成日配息甚至秒配息"},{"start":10227.153,"end":10247.692,"text":"透過Sablecoin的這個可程式化的機制都是有很大的考量空間那我想最後幾個問題 主委可不可以透露一下因為我們看到6月27號金管會將VASP的草案抱怨以後現在已經過了三個月有沒有機會討論一下目前行政院討論的狀況為什麼這麼久還沒有辦法送到立法院有沒有什麼考量的一個邏輯在裡面"},{"start":10249.113,"end":10267.829,"text":"我想簡單跟委員報告不過這應該據我所知就是例行性的議程因為通常我們討論以後各部會就會提出他的建議交給我們回去做研議跟調整我們再重新送回去那中間還有一個變數我剛剛也跟委員報告過就是因為我們現在原來主審的政委因為更換所以我們重新跟他做簡報我想這個東西應該會按照時程來進行"},{"start":10270.336,"end":10288.252,"text":"好 我們也相信這個樂觀以對最後雖然主席已經站起來不好意思我稍微交流一下這個跟資安有關的議題那因為關鍵基礎設施如果有資安風險在ATM或相關的設備上是由經管會這裡負責的那我們目前有看到有一些相關的專業的評估報告"},{"start":10289.713,"end":10304.93,"text":"有提到發現了非常多新的漏洞這些漏洞是有可能影響到我們ATM的網路甚至有可能在緊急或極端狀況的時候這些ATM如果被遠端的封鎖或者被駭入的話很可能會影響到民眾的金融安全"},{"start":10305.63,"end":10324.238,"text":"這個部分希望主委能不能跟團隊評估一下未來有機會再針對我們資安金融的部分來做個比較更完整的一個檢查跟檢討可以嗎所以我會請支付處來做這個進一步的研究好謝謝主委謝謝葛委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員"},{"start":10341.465,"end":10368.557,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩有請主委我們請捧主委委員好主委好10月10號國慶致詞的時候賴總統在演講當中啊又提到亞洲資產管理中心因為這個名詞上次在質詢的時候有請教過主委所以我聽到了以後我就"},{"start":10371.809,"end":10398.06,"text":"我不曉得該說驚訝還是驚喜顯然是賴總統一個非常重要的政見那這個名詞其實大家都不陌生第一次出現有關於政府要打造台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心大概回溯到2001年的時候阿扁總統其實就有撥話這樣子的願景那到"},{"start":10399.471,"end":10420.992,"text":"蔡總統的時候他說要成為一個亞洲企業資金調度級高階資產管理中心名稱稍微長一點大概意思差不多到賴總統的時候就是亞洲資產管理中心我上次就請教就是說劃定目標"},{"start":10422.335,"end":10443.925,"text":"我覺得沒有錯啦有方向是個好事但從2001年口號聽到現在大家可能比較關心的事情是它是繼續淪為口號還是有什麼具體上面的實踐所以我大概去了解了一下你們亞洲資產管理中心到底在做了什麼事情"},{"start":10444.929,"end":10461.396,"text":"那我看了這張圖我有一點驚訝這個是你們之前應該有開記者會嘛找了很多金融業者亞洲資產管理中心高雄專區大概橫跨鹽埕、乾金、新興、林亞跟前鎮區這樣一個地理區位的畫設"},{"start":10463.695,"end":10489.912,"text":"讓台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心它有什麼實際的意義我有點看不太懂請教一下主委是 我想跟委員報告這只是我們16項計畫其中一個叫地方資產管理專區我們整個亞洲資產管理中心涵蓋各個行業這個主要的是希望針對我們的銀行業來設計結合了證券投資這只是其中計畫之一這不是亞洲資產管理中心的全部"},{"start":10491.512,"end":10516.926,"text":"對 我同意這應該不會是亞洲資產管理中心的全部現在我的問題是你在這邊把五個行政區劃進來成為高雄專區成為亞洲資產管理專區也好成為台灣金融業要進一步向上提升的動力也好其中的一個計畫 對到底有什麼實質的意義我到目前為止看不懂好 跟委員我這樣講好了在你現在劃的高雄專區裡面有幾家銀行"},{"start":10520.227,"end":10541.243,"text":"幾家保險 幾家投信十七家銀行 四家保險 八家投信股你是不是知道在台北市的信義區有幾家銀行這我倒沒有統計幾家保險 幾家投信保險公司 那母公司的話其實我這樣子說好了啦 就是說在地理上面"},{"start":10542.096,"end":10560.559,"text":"去畫一個這樣子的區域出來當然我希望對於高雄的地方經濟的發展有幫忙啦但是把它直接跟亞洲資產管理中心其中的一個目標在高雄設這樣子的專區它具體的實效性在哪裡我真的必須要老實說我完全看不懂"},{"start":10561.36,"end":10576.435,"text":"我完全看不到我可以跟委員解釋一分鐘嗎可以 請第一個就是因為我們在做資產管理假設你針對高資產客戶的時候你必須要有很多新辦的業務是所以我們在高雄專區很重要就是我們一個大型的試辦計畫在那邊"},{"start":10577.816,"end":10603.003,"text":"所以我們必須要先有個區域的部分做示範當然原來高雄市政府提供兩棟大樓給他們選擇但是基於他們實務的考量我們後來改成劃定跟指定就先以這個區域裡面你來指定重點是那個人是動的我們整個怎麼在一個有限的範圍之內來申請核准以後我這樣說好了啦以市場管理中心來講跟金融業的本質一樣第一個是信任"},{"start":10604.062,"end":10616.019,"text":"第二個是專業第三個能力全部都是看你服務的品質而這些服務都是沒有型的這些服務都是沒有型的今天我要不要信任某一家銀行"},{"start":10617.116,"end":10637.204,"text":"或者是某一個金融機構對於所謂高端的客戶也好對於特定的族群也好他所推出來的資產管理服務他們所提供的商品提供服務或是兩者之間的結合其實我看了就是三家事情第一個這個金融機構值不值得信任第二個它的績效到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":10638.7,"end":10652.078,"text":"第三個他的專業跟他的能力所以我才會說在地理的區劃上面畫了一個五個行政區到底是什麼意思我有點看不懂今天我在台北市的信義區我在信義區可以看到很多銀行的金融總部"},{"start":10652.952,"end":10674.973,"text":"我到底要進入F銀行我還是要進入B銀行其實我不會看哪一棟外觀比較漂亮其實我看的是它的reputation跟它實際上面執行的績效時間的關係我們直接來看績效你們在今天的書面報告裡面賴總統在演說的時候似乎也有提到說增加2.83兆我們的母數是多少"},{"start":10675.646,"end":10688.788,"text":"我們現在在29、30兆去年的時候29、30兆嗎我們去年推出的時候大概是29、30兆左右你知不知道現在新加坡的資產管理的規模多少大概5兆到6兆美元"},{"start":10691.096,"end":10715.467,"text":"我們的單位是新台幣他們的單位是美元所以如果新加坡換算成所謂的新台幣當作單位這樣你才有比較的基準要不然如果以台灣來講跟新加坡來講看起來數字差不多 幣別差很多所以我們是希望現在是一兆我現在給你看"},{"start":10716.967,"end":10727.117,"text":"這個是新加坡花五年超越香港資產管理的規模4兆但是單位是美元換算成台幣大概120兆120兆"},{"start":10730.495,"end":10750.715,"text":"以台灣的狀況來講台灣過去我們的國營佔的規模跟比重比較重那相關的法規也比較緊美國商會 歐洲商會其實歷年的報告我相信主委都有看這個方向的邁進我不反對但是我們實際上面我覺得怎麼按部就班的下去執行"},{"start":10753.317,"end":10776.823,"text":"比較重要是以新加坡來講的話他整整花了五年超越香港資產管理的規模他們做了很多事情其實人家怎麼成功的我們可以借鏡我們通通都有在演當然我不是說說什麼亞洲資產管理中心掌他人之氣滅自己威風台灣怎麼跟人家比等等等等這都不是我要講的話我要我希望說的話是2001年"},{"start":10780.663,"end":10797.733,"text":"我們的政府第一次打出了這個口號現在是2025年我們一樣在喊這個口號那現實上面過去五年新加坡怎麼建籍履籍的人家怎麼做的超越了香港人家現在的規模是120兆"},{"start":10799.36,"end":10824.722,"text":"台灣未來五年要怎麼做能夠達到什麼樣子的規模我相信這個才是全體國人期待看到的東西主委你應該懂我的意思吧理解我覺得說對的事情我們就會去做這部分我想今天能夠做多少我們一定全力來做因為台灣未來發展的方向金融業不應該是只有這樣我希望透過這個計畫全面的提升"},{"start":10826.005,"end":10839.952,"text":"我希望你可以成功啦但具體的成效如何我們會隨著時間的進展一步一步來看今天因為時間的關係我後面其他的國際評比的部分我下一次再來請教主委好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝黃委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":10857.592,"end":10860.734,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言 邀請主委我們請彭主委保險法第146條 知識的規定保險業者在海外的投資上額是45%"},{"start":10875.154,"end":10892.034,"text":"但是我們看到一個數據讓我們很有探討的空間也就是在九月份的時候你函給本席辦公室說我國受險金額總額約二十二兆那二十二兆元因為國內的標的不夠"},{"start":10894.497,"end":10911.131,"text":"不足所以長期被迫它要向海外的市場造成資金的一個外流那等於也是讓保護它曝險跟外匯的一個損失那我拿到了一個統計數字你看這個表格"},{"start":10913.252,"end":10924.316,"text":"從2017年就是1761億一直到去年2024年是3029億今年上半年是多少呢是5220億的這個虧損那我們國發會有一個兆元的一個投資"},{"start":10932.794,"end":10953.636,"text":"為什麼我們金管會會說我們沒有國內的標的物可以去做投資所以在這邊本席要請教金管會你已經明確的來說明國內無可投資標的所以在這樣情況之下你一直讓我們的資金外流而且一直連連的虧損"},{"start":10957.062,"end":10978.532,"text":"那我們金管會要有什麼樣的作為呢是 跟委員回答兩件事那個匯兌成本它對應會有匯兌的損益這是只是成本的部分它工具的成本當然對 這個不是它真正的最後做匯兌的那個數字再來第二個 其實應該講我們現在國內有很多投資機會"},{"start":10979.813,"end":10993.027,"text":"但是呢保險業最重要購買的標的是固定收益的特別是債券公司債台灣的債券市場確實在規模上是相對於其他對嘛所以你買美債你買美債你的虧損就一直匯兌下來你的匯損就這麼多啊"},{"start":10997.82,"end":11011.392,"text":"對 這匯水有時候是會像比如今年的上半年是匯收益這個是因為匯率是會波動不是這樣所以它是確實面對到這個波動的風險但是不見得都是不好的這是一個"},{"start":11012.333,"end":11038.226,"text":"上下波動的風險那這樣波動的風險我們怎麼應對呢對 所以說這也是剛剛委員有提到說委員你就想一下保險公司投資在海外通常是可能幾十年一二十年都不會匯回但是我們的匯率是全部都要算波動所以它的損益很多都是叫未實現的損益在帳戶上波動這個波動很大所以保險公司要花很多的避險成本去避帳戶上面的波動實際上它不是現金流的"},{"start":11039.406,"end":11051.233,"text":"匯對匯出通常我們避險是要做什麼就是我有現金流進流出因為會有匯損所以我要做工具這個受險一個特別的地方所以我們也是希望說未來怎麼想辦法把這個把它扭轉過來"},{"start":11052.813,"end":11071.439,"text":"那你這個想辦法要什麼時候告訴我們有什麼辦法其實我們很快就會提出我們的方法什麼時候提出方法我想年底以前一定會跟委員報告好 年底以前提出方法因為我們也非常的希望你既然承認說國內沒有標的義務那你是不是可以去研議是不是可以適度的開放"},{"start":11072.986,"end":11095.977,"text":"這個都是在你的研擬範圍內現在我們也在盡量的就看看透過跨部會剛剛那個委員有提到怎麼樣台灣其實需要很多的建設需要很多的建設國發會就有一個兆元基金他在做他在做其實這我們有參與我們也在尋找更多的標的我們也下降了保險業投資國內標的的一些的障礙擴大開放國內的標的物"},{"start":11098.342,"end":11125.173,"text":"以及保障我們受險人員的一個安全度這個安全是沒有問題這個風險是由保險官來承擔不是由客戶來承擔所以一定要好好的你年底就會告訴我們你的方法要怎麼做怎麼樣去配合我們的資本制度來做所謂的他的資產負債年底的時候告訴社會大眾我會把這個方案跟大家做說明好 謝謝ETF市場表面很熱絡但是實際上操作"},{"start":11126.413,"end":11151.578,"text":"實際上操作我們看到在整個結構性的一個風險當中跟他的不當行為我們看到很多投薪他為了搶市佔率所以他訂定高一點的高募集的這個責任額度那迫使基層的音樂園他必須甚至他招不到他自己自掏腰包用盡各種方式那在基金上這個上市之後立即倒貨"},{"start":11154.095,"end":11181.106,"text":"讓這個規模立即的會縮水價格撲發那不僅會讓投資人他不信任而且會凸顯到整個市場的監管的一個缺口影響到投資人的一個權益所以本席要在這邊請教本席要在這邊請教我們看到10月2號的時候呢那5月份有多檔的ETF不到一個禮拜就七成七成的籌碼"},{"start":11182.867,"end":11209.639,"text":"就倒出不到一個禮拜我們要看到81%的ETF的當天上市當天就破發在這樣的一個情況之下不僅影響到整個投資人的一個信任剛剛本席特別強調監管的缺口那所以請教主委你要怎麼樣重建市場的一個信任你要怎麼樣去遏止虛擬募集的一個行為請教主委"},{"start":11210.559,"end":11233.213,"text":"你的KPI以及你的制定到底要怎麼做對 我想這個前一陣子確實引發很多的關注後來全經理也有到我們這邊來針對員工的權益跟我們做一些討論我們也採取一些行動我想我們可以提個書面報告給委員這個非常重要我們不希望讓國人不信任不希望讓基層的這一些人員"},{"start":11235.54,"end":11253.673,"text":"他被壓榨到這種程度81%當天破發這個是監管會您的責任必須要將你的KPI以及你的監管方式必須要說明導正市場秩序維護投資人權益跟勞工的這些的那個我們都會來"},{"start":11254.614,"end":11279.71,"text":"最後一個議題我公開給我們金管會金管會我看到我們全球金融版的一個重組我也看到我們有八家的公股銀行六家提出退出退出在哪裡在澳洲緬甸大陸歐洲在這樣子的一個情況之下到底是什麼原因我們自己公股銀行八家有六家提出退出那這樣子等於我們"},{"start":11280.851,"end":11296.645,"text":"整個的整體性的國家級的一個評估那麼是不是會有股牌效應讓我們的公股銀行集體的退出削弱我們整個在金融外交國際布局的一個量能呢請教其實我剛才"},{"start":11297.626,"end":11317.352,"text":"稍早有委員問到這個問題我說其實我們的國營不是只有關股關股他基於自己營運的目的去做整併那是他們經營的問題我們關注的是這樣有沒有不符合公司治理還有整個的他們的整個的策略他來跟我們報告但是我們要看的是台灣還有很多其他的銀行"},{"start":11318.272,"end":11343.596,"text":"當然啊 但是你基本是我們自己的功苦功苦就是如此了我們深怕的是我們被國際金融邊緣化其實不會啦我們委員可以看到我們國營在今年在海外的表現的占比呢一直越來越重要這也代表我們國營啊所以這一點我們也特別因為國營總是是一個指標嘛那您必須要看為什麼他們會退出什麼樣的原因會不會影響到你也順便資料給本席好 謝謝"},{"start":11347.957,"end":11352.819,"text":"謝謝楊瓊瑛委員接下來我們請林楚瑛委員謝謝主席 主席辛苦了 邀請金管會彭主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":11372.591,"end":11395.945,"text":"委員好主委午安這個因為我現在已經是外委會的委員所以比較後面才能質詢你所以前面幾個我原本準備的題目前面的委員大概都已經垂詢了所以我也不太想浪費您的時間那麼就是有關於這個詐騙然後因為這個警示賬戶的問題您今天也都回答得非常多了只是我覺得有沒有一個作業上面的SOP真的可以簡化這個"},{"start":11396.866,"end":11423.101,"text":"整個的流程讓民眾的困擾可以降低所以我想要問的就是像這樣的所謂疑似不法我們現在判斷標準有沒有什麼方式真的可以更明確讓第一線的銀行的不論是國營或是民營他們在製作這樣的所謂因為一方面又要幫打詐把關那麼一方面真的如果出現狀況像我前幾天還看到那個新聞真的就是第一線的銀行行員說老太太你要匯3600塊喔不是他要匯3600萬"},{"start":11426.323,"end":11441.433,"text":"打死就是非要會出去不可那像這種狀況底下減少避免爭議甚至於擾民的狀況到底這樣的標準可不可以更明確而怎麼樣制定的更明確是不是有一個可以遵守的守則其實我們現在已經請那個"},{"start":11441.773,"end":11465.31,"text":"因為剛剛委員提到我們才剛剛成立我們知道這個打詐整合的重要性我們請銀行公會趕快成立一個已經成立的這個打詐委員會我們就希望大家比如剛剛委員提到共通性的東西大家先互相照會這樣明確但是我們不會對外公佈這東西不能對外公佈因為只要我們SOP這樣子就會變成一個樣態可以讓所謂犯罪集團或詐騙集團來模仿"},{"start":11466.791,"end":11494.588,"text":"對就是說我們怎麼做這件事情我們可以透過訊息的這個傳遞但是不對外說明因為為什麼那這樣的東西可以多快能夠達到這樣的準則上面可以更明確然後如果真的發生了這樣的狀態比如說我坦白說我們在社群媒體上是很容易就被民眾tag我們點名我們然後要我們來處理但是我們不認為這個是一個正確的做法它應該要有另外一個"},{"start":11495.949,"end":11517.008,"text":"合理的管道可以來做申訴那有沒有可能建立這樣的機制其實他本來就是我們現在要求銀行啊他一定要提供那個專線還有這些專人來服務這些比如因為被所控產生衍生的爭議啦剛剛有文提到電話不好打我們會再去了解那至於說剛剛那個標準的部分那是持續滾動的狀態隨時會有新的我們會透過那個這個"},{"start":11520.871,"end":11538.992,"text":"所以已經成立而且這個樣態上面的模組是可以怎麼樣叫疑似然後怎麼樣是可以解開的這個會滾動的每天或者是多久會做一次處理這個因為我們委員會的部分他有一定是但是他這個運作就在持續在運作中"},{"start":11539.372,"end":11561.222,"text":"好 那麼剛剛提到的就是電話不好打我自己本人也有這樣的經驗我真的打進去所以我建議像現在都有所謂的AI甚至於有其他的透過線上的方式可以處理的部分是不是也可以建議銀行或是銀行公會這裡也可以讓業者們可以加入我覺得這也是不失為一個解套的方法"},{"start":11561.762,"end":11580.505,"text":"對 提高效率 提高服務的品質我們一定會來要求但是這邊也稍微提一下就是很多民眾可能不理解他被鎖控可能有兩個原因一個是因為他是被檢調所鎖的警示帳戶這個銀行是沒辦法幫你解的是 就是在調查單位那裡對 那個是要"},{"start":11581.266,"end":11599.958,"text":"要回到源頭去那個解很多民眾可能可能以為說我跟銀行講這是為受害者那通販銀行也無能為力倒是剛剛委員講的應該是指他自行鎖控根據打詐專法第八條自行鎖控部分不夠精準所導致的這些問題他們就要好好來處理這件問題"},{"start":11600.984,"end":11614.349,"text":"好 了解所以這個部分其實是全民最關心的另外一個當然我關心的就是我們剛剛前面也有很多委員在談到就是剩下不到三個月的時間那麼到底現在的"},{"start":11615.643,"end":11622.77,"text":"ICS給予的所謂的監理寬容的這個部分我其實比較想要問的是剩下的時間這麼的短而它又是一個整體浮動的狀況的時候每一個受險業者他們自己本身的狀況不一樣當每一個人都要達到新規的100%的時候剛剛主委也講了可能就是明天後天或者是本週這個規定將出來"},{"start":11641.707,"end":11654.413,"text":"可是就算是明天後天也是將近十月底了那麼距離接下來的到明年的時間也不到兩個月那麼如何讓所有的人都可以齊步走而且能夠在這個規定上面符合每一家壽險業者的狀態跟樣態"},{"start":11660.256,"end":11676.396,"text":"那這個部分寶芭中心正在思考當中也在精密計算當中但是如何讓大家都能夠使用其實我認為非常的困難就像你做一件衣服要符合今天在場的所有的人這個其實困難度是非常高的"},{"start":11678.618,"end":11693.435,"text":"這個委員非常清楚我們為了這個專案我親自主持會議應該超過50場從我上任開始不斷每週每週這樣開會我的意思是說剛才各位可能會覺得只剩一兩個月但是各位知道我們接軌1月1號真正那個報表會出來"},{"start":11694.956,"end":11723.268,"text":"應該是第一個報表日應該是6月30號明天6月30號正式的報表應該是明年的12月30號所以真正的會到後年所以那個時間不會是各位看到那麼緊迫只是應該講為什麼我們一定要把這個制度很周延就剛才委員提到這個複雜的程度超乎我們當時的想像因為各家狀況不一樣而且這套制度複雜程度跟過去的方法論完全不同所以我想這要兼顧各家的差異又要能夠穩健過度又有這個"},{"start":11724.693,"end":11747.101,"text":"最近半年的政經情勢的波動那這些確實是為什麼我們要在這個花這麼多時間會在最近一兩天公佈就是因為我們真的希望盡量的周延作為讓我們的所有的受險業能夠平穩的我不喜歡稱為叫做寬容它是一個過渡措施是希望我們的受險業往更好方向爬樓梯的過程"},{"start":11747.461,"end":11757.388,"text":"好那我最後因為主席站起來我只問一個點那就是就像我剛剛特別提到的因為每一家受險業者的狀況不一樣的時候他們各自遭遇到了問題了然後他們如何去做回饋包括您剛剛講的嘛開的會議也不只超過50場是跟百發中心跟金管會還是如何讓他們的問題可以在整個會計呈現當中更精準的時候大家都不一樣的時候那這樣的溝通過程該怎麼處理"},{"start":11777.641,"end":11795.368,"text":"所以我們當然是這個制度是要業者來做的這個溝通絕對不可少但是政策的制定是我們來決定當然是我們要負責這個政策因為各家的需求不同我們要整合他們的意見本來就花很大的功夫我們也是在這個過程上一步一驅的跟他們進行溝通"},{"start":11795.868,"end":11820.936,"text":"好所以言下之意就是這兩天公佈之後接下來到明年的第一次的報表出來的時候反而是啟動溝通甚至於在這樣的規定當中可以有調整的機會其實我們也有跟社運公會溝通說因為因應這個情況請社運公會能夠籌組個專業的接軌委員會他們也同意朝這個這就是一個很好的一個這是一個未來是"},{"start":11821.797,"end":11824.085,"text":"十幾二十年的過程一定要有一個專業的對口好 所以結論就是"},{"start":11828.255,"end":11854.033,"text":"這個規則出來之後他其實是有修正甚至於調整的空間在那裡而不是一個死板板的規定就在那裡資本監理是非常有彈性會因應的所有的狀況我想看國外也都是這樣因為他的目的是要讓產業更好而不是成為一個變成是一個不可動沒有辦法因應環境波動的一個限制好 謝謝主委辛苦 謝謝委員謝謝主席 謝謝林委員接下來我們請邱志維委員"},{"start":11877.515,"end":11890.519,"text":"好 謝謝主席我是不是先請經管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委然後證交所林董事長林董事長吉寶林董事長吉寶林董事長桂馬簡董事長桂馬簡董事長"},{"start":11893.624,"end":11916.794,"text":"主委辛苦了第一個問題想請教你就是亞洲市場管理中心我們正是在7月12號有個揭牌典禮這是一個示範性質也不僅也不會限定只有高雄未來還有其他的專區嗎未來如果其他縣市也能提供相類似具有吸引力的誘因現在目前我們沒有收到任何的訊息所以這個專區是一個示範性質那示範到什麼時候呢"},{"start":11917.399,"end":11938.337,"text":"我們這個專區初步我們通常我們在事辦大概就是半年為一個基礎然後半年再看那個事辦的情況再做調整這樣那你半年是從4月1號開始辦算半年還是7月22號接牌開始算半年應該從7月開始7月半年就是明年初就變成正式的不是事辦性質的"},{"start":11939.809,"end":11960.351,"text":"其實我們有可能持續試辦有可能把它轉成其他的比如說可能其他的地方也可以試用或是會增加其他試辦的項目都有可能整個供應鏈半導體供應鏈是往台灣集中所以未來亞洲市場管理中心我們面對是全亞洲甚至全球"},{"start":11961.368,"end":11984.032,"text":"所以這個地點高雄專區非常有它的必要性跟急迫性為什麼呢因為高雄是未來全世界半導體製造先進製程中心所以很多的大型跨國的企業AI 半導體都會集中在高雄而且甚至有很多在亞洲或者其他國家的AI半導體廠商也會願意進駐在高雄"},{"start":11985.427,"end":11999.854,"text":"所以您對這個高雄專區的未來的所以我們在那個街牌也講過我們是事半有期但是專區永續啊我們已經提過這個部分呢我們也在未來也是會應該會是常態化只是他作為很多事半業務的試點"},{"start":12001.485,"end":12016.195,"text":"所以金融業是非常敏銳的如果這個沒有未來性不會有十幾家銀行 四家保險九家頭股 三家券商進駐所以有時候未來看好但是相關的適度法令都應該更周全"},{"start":12017.376,"end":12045.752,"text":"讓所有的金融業者在這邊能夠提供最優質的服務讓需要他們協助的這個需求的這些資產家能夠得到他們應有的需求當然確定是他們最基本的要求啦好 謝謝主委第二個問題想請問這個集保所您懂集保所集保集算所這個TISA就是個人特色的這個投資專戶那你們現在已經上路了嗎"},{"start":12047.101,"end":12071.949,"text":"對 已經上路了上路 額度內 在多少額度內由資產管理業者來讓利對 多少額度目前大概有4萬多戶 已經開戶的那多少額度啊 看你的報告來問你額度我是依據您的報告來請教您多少額度內由資產管理來讓利 讓利多少"},{"start":12073.876,"end":12097.032,"text":"我們現在就是手續費手續費是零然後心理費大概是原本的大概三到四成左右所以六月底上路到現在已經有四萬多開戶了已經有四萬多那你第二階段會有租稅跟其他優因是有哪些租稅跟其他優因目前正在積極在爭取那你希望你的普及率達到多少規模"},{"start":12098.413,"end":12123.822,"text":"那到年底我們希望是達到有6萬戶開戶會不會太保守你那兩個月就已經三個月就已經4萬戶了到年底才6萬戶對 因為目前還沒有出售的優惠我希望說既然有這個個人特色的這個投資專戶你應該有相關的配套 其他的優因讓這個開戶人能夠增加"},{"start":12124.943,"end":12133.422,"text":"這部分再請林董事長再努力謝謝林董事長接著想請問這個證交所林董事長跟那個"},{"start":12135.201,"end":12136.723,"text":"未來要把它打造成有競爭力的上市櫃制度目前的時程怎麼樣"},{"start":12159.763,"end":12181.171,"text":"執行的進度執程的進度就是事實上來講的話我覺得就華規的鬆綁的部分因為我們總統跟行政院長都有宣示一些華規的鬆綁那我們預計會在台灣州的那段時間對外做宣布也有可能是最快啦應該是這一兩天就會下禮拜就把這個計畫的詳細內容做對外公佈"},{"start":12187.122,"end":12206.736,"text":"所以我覺得12個前瞻新進的產業固然重要包括半導體 AI智慧製造綠能環保等等機器人然後櫃滿的是當然生技醫療綠能環保等等那有沒有針對這個傳統產業比如說扣件要如何去做這個先進的轉型這個部分有沒有納入"},{"start":12209.116,"end":12215.4,"text":"基本上沒有納入這個我們交易所這邊我們另外有一個所謂擴大市值的方案裡面我們會提供讓一些比較上市公司針對未來的一些變化他必須提供一些增加他的擴大市值的策略來進行跟"},{"start":12229.668,"end":12235.07,"text":"機構投資人跟一般投資人的溝通來擴大他的市值另外的制度不是這個所謂創新投資平台對 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勞動部部長及衛生福利部部長針對災後復原重建及清理因應作為進行專題報告並被質詢另邀請國防部 經濟部 內政部 政災基金會列席備詢本日會議由環境部部長 勞動部部長及衛生福利部部長報告後委員林月琴等23人提出質詢"},{"start":1726.712,"end":1750.921,"text":"軍經環境部部長 勞動部部長 衛生福利部部長經濟部能源署代理署長李軍禮內政部國土管理署副總工程司林佑林援助民族委員會公共建設處檢任暨政孟中傑及國防部作戰及計畫參謀次長室助理次長彭國洲及各相關主管等及其答覆委員陳金輝 王玉敏所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1751.901,"end":1767.265,"text":"決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定十月九日邀請勞動部部長針對因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策進行專題報告並備質詢"},{"start":1772.586,"end":1797.219,"text":"本日會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等14人提出質詢均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員徐欣盈 牛許廷 王玉敏 蘇清泉及盧憲一所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一 報告質詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢"},{"start":1798.783,"end":1826.59,"text":"好 謝謝 請問委員會上市議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有 那如果沒有我們就議事錄來確認本日會議整為邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安記載能力不足問題進行專題報告並備質詢 那我們現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位是陳昭思陳委員"},{"start":1829.417,"end":1855.037,"text":"第二位是王正旭 王委員第三位是林月琴 林委員好 初期的官員 衛福部部長施崇良 早那第二位是行政院食品安全辦公室主任徐福好 其他還是要介紹一下啦生命藥物管理署署長江志剛"},{"start":1858.365,"end":1881.597,"text":"中央健康保險署署長陳亮宇社會極佳領事署代理署長周道軍保護服務司副市長郭采榮國民健康署檢任計政陳立堅好謝謝那接下來就請文部副市部長來做報告"},{"start":1891,"end":1904.765,"text":"主席還有各位委員本部這個陳大院安排就重大食安事件的處理之檢討與食安集合能力不足問題今天進行專題報告"},{"start":1906.846,"end":1921.958,"text":"那本部的食藥署呢定有中央食品事件處理標準作業說明書那麼來作為但發生有食品事件的時候的調查通報處理溝通改善"},{"start":1922.498,"end":1943.625,"text":"等事項之依據來維護國人的飲食所以以下先就他的作業程序跟各位委員做報告那麼第一個就是一旦事件發生的時候那麼我們分成邊境查獲或者是地方的主管機關的主動查核或者是因為有民眾檢舉或檢調偵辦那麼我們都適用"},{"start":1947.926,"end":1970.843,"text":"這樣的一個標準作業程序那麼它的處理第一個當然就是先有初步的調查那麼依據這個了解的事實不法的情勢進行收證那麼集合資訊來做研判那麼第二個會啟動減緊調的合作如果它涉及到"},{"start":1971.483,"end":1989.393,"text":"食安法49條的刑事事件就會立即那麼啟動這樣的聯合稽查的作業那麼藉由警檢警部門的協助迅速來介入調查依法追究責任那第三呢那麼如果涉及到"},{"start":1990.214,"end":2012.436,"text":"這個事件本身會有跨部會的事實比如說會與農業部或環境部等等我們也有成立這個環境保護與食品安全協調匯報所以一旦這個食安事件涉及到跨部會的那麼也會在這個食安辦的指導之下來共同做協同追查追蹤處理"},{"start":2014.017,"end":2039.563,"text":"第四個會成立緊急應變中心如果是重大的食安事件就會依據風險分級來開設由應變中心來加強跨部門之間的溝通協調確保進度能夠快速追查源頭採取必要的防範措施減少影響第五就是進行封存下架"},{"start":2040.103,"end":2064.478,"text":"回收對於不合格的產品就會進行溯源那麼處理這個封存或者是下架之後那麼做銷毀那麼另外呢也會進行擴大的抽驗那麼開發檢驗的方法擴大這個檢驗抽驗來確保市場上的食品的安全那麼以本次事件為例那麼除了這個現場查獲的這個"},{"start":2068.58,"end":2086.458,"text":"產品那麼進行檢驗之外也這個由全國責成全國的各縣市衛生局進行市場上的擴大檢驗那到目前為止呢那麼就本次事件的檢驗結果那麼也都還是符合在我們的標準以內"},{"start":2087.279,"end":2103.134,"text":"那同時第六個就是會進行新聞的處理跟風險的溝通那對所有的處理的進度包含這些違法的產品的流向那麼我們都會及時的公佈讓民眾呢理解那麼進行風險的溝通"},{"start":2104.355,"end":2126.52,"text":"那麼資訊透明來增進公眾的信任度那麼之後在這個事件處理完之後呢也還會進行這個改善的檢討來檢討是否還需要在更進一步的這個就作業流程或者是相關的法規或者是監測的計畫上來做這個修正那麼強化這個食安"},{"start":2131.181,"end":2147.342,"text":"的管理體系那麼至於在人力的部分那麼承蒙各委員的關切那目前在這個食安集合那麼屬於地方事務那麼經查呢在114年地方衛生局所配置的"},{"start":2148.562,"end":2171.03,"text":"市安的稽查人力共是463名另外在今年度另外由食藥署再補助給地方政府衛生局稽查人力45名所以合計原額是508名至於在人力上如何來運用能夠救"},{"start":2172.07,"end":2199.805,"text":"這個高風險的食品或者是曾經有過的風險事件那麼來加強查核同時近期也導入了一些AI的資訊那麼透過大數據的分析那更精準的去針對必要的專案集合那麼來執行所以以上呢就今天大院所關切的事項做以上的報告那麼再請各位委員給予指教謝謝"},{"start":2208.122,"end":2213.909,"text":"好謝謝市部長的報告接下來請這個行政院食品安全辦公室主任許甫來做報告"},{"start":2220.325,"end":2241.675,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生那我就簡單進入今天有兩個的主題第一個是重大食安事件應變的處理檢討那我們整個食品安全的施政是政府推動五打七安跟民生最攸關的施政"},{"start":2242.495,"end":2271.836,"text":"重點然後主要是根據五環2.0的食安政策然後來強化這個跨部會還有中央跟地方的局處相關的共同的來協力來合作那我們行政院食品安全辦公室主要是負責督導協調相關的部會然後各個全責機關來共同推動跨部會的這些食品安全管理工作"},{"start":2272.396,"end":2287.175,"text":"那在近日工業級的雙陽水加工出廠的這一個案子本院食安辦在10月3號接獲衛福部的通報之後隨即啟動跨部會的應變機制先分工"},{"start":2288.116,"end":2310.897,"text":"先由惠福部負責涉案業者非法行為的調查還有全案的聯繫然後由農業部來確認屠宰場跟屠體內臟的來源環境部來查核非食品添加物的過氧化氫的使用的情形我們行政院就持續掌握本案整體"},{"start":2311.998,"end":2336.951,"text":"進度然後同時協調聯繫法務部還有高檢署等等確認犯罪事實還有查扣的情形那後續的話我們會在已經有安排這個星期會開這個案子的這一個檢討精進的會議希望來完善突體還有突災場域的衛生安全管理的這個"},{"start":2338.98,"end":2355.235,"text":"機制然後我們同時也呼籲說國內的這一些業者要這個遵守我們食安的相關法令不要以身試法第二個是在食安集合人力的部分我們從110年還有111年因應這個擴大開放"},{"start":2362.998,"end":2369.079,"text":"美猪美牛还有调整日本食品输入然后分别有同意"},{"start":2370.343,"end":2396.989,"text":"衛福部的食藥署增聘專案的聘用人力分別是21人 17人那去年113有一個蘇丹紅的事件發生之後行政院也這個強化相關的食安的管理措施然後同時因應這個邊境茶和業務的需要在今年114年有同意合增食藥署預算的原額"},{"start":2398.149,"end":2426.635,"text":"是20人然後那所以事實上都很很重視這個食安的相關的人力跟相關的資源另外是在希望要提升地方政府健全食安基礎的建設在去年就核定了這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫總共是10億元這個是用中央特別統籌"},{"start":2427.995,"end":2448.881,"text":"分配稅款是從今年的一一四年到明年的一一五年那這個以上呢是有關於這個人力跟資源部分那這一次的這一個事件發生之後在目前看起來是個案那我們也會很嚴格的去關注有沒有相關其他類似"},{"start":2451.283,"end":2468.511,"text":"業者業別有可能的情形然後也同時顯示我們五環2.0這裡面有兩個項目一個叫做整合產製銷鏈跟中央地方合作稽查檢驗兩個項目還需要再進一步的再來努力"},{"start":2469.671,"end":2488.753,"text":"來加強那我們會跟相關部會確保食品安全確保食品供應鏈能夠符合衛生安全標準然後這個食安的整個資訊更透明讓國人吃得安心以上 謝謝"},{"start":2496.684,"end":2522.194,"text":"好 謝謝 那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報那現在開始做詢答 做以下宣告第一本會議委員詢答時間為6加2分鐘 列席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面諮詢 請於上一天提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案10點30分截止收件現在請登記第一位委員陳昭詩來做發言"},{"start":2528.015,"end":2530.396,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長來 請施部長委員長部長早部長食安五環 我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督"},{"start":2552.12,"end":2576.752,"text":"但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明它失靈了啦 不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這一次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情"},{"start":2578.553,"end":2599.327,"text":"所以部長您認不認為同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯"},{"start":2600.027,"end":2616.814,"text":"很快的掌握所有的这个不合格产品的流向以这一次的事件为例我们很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰场是不是合法然后它的下游仓储在哪里然后销售可能到哪里去可以快速的回应"},{"start":2616.934,"end":2637.811,"text":"因為源頭的那個地方對不對我們都想從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠work更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊"},{"start":2638.812,"end":2664.035,"text":"那就是暗發了嘛 我的意思是暗發了那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過 那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告 但是我再確認一次全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬"},{"start":2666.578,"end":2692.72,"text":"那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的"},{"start":2693.14,"end":2719.337,"text":"具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是"},{"start":2721.119,"end":2746.921,"text":"我們在這個事件之後就擴大市場查核所以全國各縣市衛生局都在市場上進行抽驗還有業者也都去集合到目前為止是檢驗出來的產品我現在聽到你的人力然後vs所有廠商我知道一定是不夠所以你是一定要有一些重點那一般是四年一次其實很久了你說現在有高風險食品清單所以"},{"start":2748.442,"end":2760.392,"text":"我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率啊等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講嘛審計部的報告有提到當然部分視線那個查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補師他認為你們人力是不夠的"},{"start":2768.459,"end":2790.051,"text":"那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部告的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾激跟"},{"start":2790.771,"end":2805.232,"text":"整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑"},{"start":2806.494,"end":2822.617,"text":"所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫得這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做"},{"start":2823.118,"end":2837.268,"text":"對 我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商那請問部長指教署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤"},{"start":2846.634,"end":2860.48,"text":"那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題了因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心"},{"start":2862.562,"end":2886.725,"text":"跟委員報告 因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這個J4的產品J4的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核"},{"start":2887.165,"end":2911.024,"text":"那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他double counting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物它的來源跟出租都要記錄"},{"start":2912.125,"end":2931.496,"text":"只要時評本身時評有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我要再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速"},{"start":2932.918,"end":2947.242,"text":"比少於營業稅籍登記的加速或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記但是卻沒有在這個平台有登記那同一個業者還有兩個以上的這個登錄資料請問蕭叔叔你們怎麼來改善這些資料"},{"start":2951.003,"end":2967.621,"text":"跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一理路最後一理路"},{"start":2968.161,"end":2982.638,"text":"那把它做成審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發 使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向"},{"start":2983.058,"end":3010.116,"text":"那还差那一点我们会继续来努力来折成卫生局最后有一个是沟基刚刚您说的那个是沟基登陆的沟基就是他的税政机关的资料跟我们这边登陆的资料一样上次我请您跟这个家族牵手的意思一样大家都不牵手那以今年来讲沟基出来这71万家里面大概有4万家左右是不一致"},{"start":3011.116,"end":3034.737,"text":"所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的 審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年 仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大而且他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線"},{"start":3036.298,"end":3046.604,"text":"那如今在每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁那所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望這個中央跟地方要聯防不要各自這個為政應該馬上這個補這個破口"},{"start":3051.346,"end":3074.162,"text":"那部長這個食安重要 那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品有關永豐順利食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉 出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎"},{"start":3076.963,"end":3090.089,"text":"有看過 有看過那報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身 永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物"},{"start":3093.459,"end":3110.765,"text":"雜質藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及這個染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件但是食藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業報告量很高啊"},{"start":3113.704,"end":3129.983,"text":"藥品本身 注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下 委員指出的任何一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年 我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討 我們看到的是過去的檢討的"},{"start":3131.745,"end":3157.111,"text":"過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPIC GMP的藥廠底下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是是不是你在實藥署去年2月你還沒有上任去永豐檢查室他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含附說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施"},{"start":3157.771,"end":3171.146,"text":"那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法摸好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實際改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告"},{"start":3173.729,"end":3197.869,"text":"那邊我們看到相關的文字 後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的它的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率 PIX GMP 長期你會不會加強它的頻率會繼續的調整那我再簡單問兩個問題 這個部長在裁罰方面 或是署長 除了勒令停業 請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定 法源依據在哪裡 罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎 永豐罰了多少錢"},{"start":3199.731,"end":3219.278,"text":"這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再揮霍 揮霍給你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能你可不知道你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措您知道嘛那這樣的話那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶"},{"start":3224.98,"end":3246.013,"text":"11億很多患病癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產啊 撤照啊 一個門檻嘛黑名單名單啊或是說他累犯很危險啊而且供應全部 全國大量的這個生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的"},{"start":3247.769,"end":3268.274,"text":"無預警的查核 你告訴他然後你去查 都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核 你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員 建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請法治料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席 謝謝署長 部長謝謝陳偉 謝謝部長 署長 請回接下來林月請委員來做選擇"},{"start":3285.061,"end":3305.241,"text":"主席麻煩部長來有請部長林委員早部長早部長這次那個黑心豬大腸的事件 政府的應對跟裁罰還算快速可是我想問一個核心的問題也就是說"},{"start":3306.394,"end":3325.744,"text":"我們現在的食安稽查人力到底夠不夠為什麼這樣問 從監察院十年前的報告到去年的蘇丹洪事件再到前天地方政府的說法問題其實實際上是沒有改變像台北市說那因為他們的稽查人員離職率高達四成而且新北市議員換算"},{"start":3328.206,"end":3341.003,"text":"每一位稽查員一年要處理800件案件那表示人力不足大家都是知道事實上是一個很關鍵的問題那今天的標題呢也是人力不足可是從今天的專報內容來看是陷入一個"},{"start":3341.627,"end":3360.382,"text":"出事之後再補一點點的人力的一個惡性循環所以今天專報部長你認為這是支標還是治本為什麼地方政府說靠E化補人力我也不知道這靠E化補人力是什麼意思衛福部說邊境用的大數據抽檢會越來越精準"},{"start":3361.062,"end":3385.1,"text":"那食藥署也說這次的現在機制已經非常完整可是我非常擔心的是是不是下次出事的時候又說是人力不足為何不五大措施也就是你的食安五大措施都很好可是不論是在加強抽減還是全面的溯源每一項都是需要人力的所以想問請部長明確的回答中央跟地方的食安稽查人力到底夠不夠"},{"start":3386.574,"end":3406.485,"text":"當然在這個人力的部分我們持續去強化包含人力就是這個多少人還有稽查的方法那個能力我們也一併要去提升所以我們也會辦一些訓練 研習等等的來提升它的效率當然更重要的如何精準管理"},{"start":3407.225,"end":3434.676,"text":"更重要所以我們現在串聯各種的資訊流做這個大數據分析來精準管理看看能不能夠所以你就覺得這E化就能夠完全解決人力的問題嗎它能夠強化我們的這個管理的能力可是地方長期就是人力不足的問題中央補助獎勵是一回事不能就這樣子擺著不處理那財化法整個地方的分配款增加之後是不是要求"},{"start":3435.97,"end":3455.962,"text":"地方優先來增加人力來做改善最後也請衛福部是不是提供一份比較完整的說明跟規劃給我們我們按委員的建議非常好我們會持續透過要求這個地方多增編食安人力來提升"},{"start":3458.003,"end":3473.697,"text":"應該事實上他們要增加人力在我們看就是部長審計部針對於去年的食安議題的審計報告早就點名了中國的食品未經核准不得輸台可是我們再次看到現況是"},{"start":3475.138,"end":3503.046,"text":"網路平台 夜市照樣有人賣還有人打著個人自用免查驗的名義一次又一次的進口大量未經核可的食品根本就變成假自用 真商業那變成我們的食安制度的一個破口根據審計部的報告113年我們就有超過70萬人用這種方式來進口食品而且總量超過350萬公斤而且九成都是食品跟調味料"},{"start":3503.906,"end":3531.376,"text":"這樣的數量怎麼可能是個人自用呢你們當時回應審計部說會加強網路稽查阻斷未核准的食品流入也會針對頻繁巨量濫用制度設計對策可是現在到114年年底了像我們問部長說這一年來制度到底有沒有改善具體的作為又是什麼因為我們直至到現在我們辦公室都還是可以透過這些"},{"start":3532.197,"end":3534.795,"text":"去买 淘宝去买到这些东西所以想问一下"},{"start":3536.376,"end":3555.249,"text":"這個委員提的確實是提出了我們現在的痛點就是電商平台的部分就是四面間的查核中國黑心食品或違規的食品那個都在努力都在查那個都有查到現在就是那個電商平台所以我們也在研議應該要來考慮7月16行正有開過一個虛實對應因為如果講虛實對應的話如果"},{"start":3563.134,"end":3592.354,"text":"實體是你們 食品是你們管的話那就會變成是你們是 所以我們也在思考應該要來提出像這個食安法的修法把電商平台的管理納入就好像上一次大院這邊我們通過的這個淹害防治法一樣把那個電商平台一併納入管理那包含它的這個借街啦或者是在這個電商平台上販賣的業者或平台的提供者都應該克與相當的責任"},{"start":3592.734,"end":3610.709,"text":"部長是不是儘快因為這些東西一直進來事實上是對我們國人事實上是沒有保障的那也請衛福部給我相關的確確執行的數據跟成效委員好這邊要處這邊多一點點小小的補充我們這一電商平台其實上個會期裡面有同樣的議題我們被"},{"start":3611.509,"end":3629.43,"text":"提醒所以我們已經把相關的科與電商平台的義務跟責任他必須要確定這個產品是否違法是否合法等等的落地的你們都有管沒有落地的你都沒辦法管的話我覺得現在就是非落地的是不是要一併管我覺得才有辦法解決問題"},{"start":3631.492,"end":3658.013,"text":"來 在我們看就是部長食品安全不能只停留在查禁有害物質更重要的是關乎到孩子的健康從第一次兒權公約的審查到四年前的國際委員再三提醒台灣政府都被要求要重視兒童肥胖的問題你自己國健署也一直再而三的有這樣的宣導可是幾年下來我們的成績單沒有太大變化從第一次國際委員到第二次"},{"start":3658.453,"end":3677.658,"text":"明年要交國家報告第三次了我不知道你們怎麼去回應這件事情因為台灣兒童的肥胖連年列名我們的前段班像男童事實上是第六名那女童是第十二名我們肥胖真的事實上是前段班每四位小學生就有一位"},{"start":3678.318,"end":3705.656,"text":"體重超重國中生更超過三成的超重那兒童糖尿病的狀況也令人擔憂我們當然知道兒童肥胖牽扯到生活作息運動習慣等面向可是回到你們自己來看國健署一直說你們要減少兒童肥胖拒絕零食遠離高熱量高油高鹽高熱量可是問題是現在市場上都賣這些東西的時候那這就是你們應該負責要負責的主戰場"},{"start":3708.218,"end":3725.393,"text":"所以台灣的兒童的健康警報早就響起部長你怎麼去看現在食品安全的政策跟兒童肥胖問題的關聯性政府到底有沒有要準備去解決這個長年沒有解決的危機確實委員提出是一個非常重要的一點就是肥胖是"},{"start":3726.534,"end":3743.081,"text":"未來就是孩子的時候的肥胖跟未來他的代謝症候群或相關三高是有關聯性的所以這個兒童肥胖的問題我們會積極的納入在我們健康台灣這個下面另外一個就是營養"},{"start":3744.401,"end":3772.379,"text":"从小如何建立这个正确的营养观念还有这个运动这两个可能要一起来来并进才有办法我们就来看下一个就是说部长这是大概都是全球要面对到的一个挑战联合国已经提醒说食品产业以利润为导向我们的饮食环境对孩子并不友善所以你刚刚讲说你们接下来会去努力在健康台湾这边可是超加工的食品高糖高脂高盐低营养"},{"start":3773.62,"end":3793.696,"text":"被證實跟兒少肥胖糖尿病注意力發展問題都高度相關對孕婦跟胎兒也有長期的影響這是公共衛生的一個警訊日韓歐盟都用法規限制食品廣告跟規範校園周邊而且要求食品要更清楚標示以外也要更易懂"},{"start":3794.537,"end":3814.051,"text":"那WHO在2016年早就建議說要課增我們的糖稅韓國也正在討論加稅並用稅制來誘導我們的健康的選擇那所以想問部長台灣會跟進嗎因為除了無糖飲料最近那個降稅那我們是否考慮用稅制來改善兒童的食品環境"},{"start":3815.072,"end":3833.831,"text":"當然這個委員提到的是這個可能有些國家在實施的糖稅或者是糖捐這種健康捐的概念不過我們第一步先從這個簡明標示讓大家容易這個消費者容易懂我們現在的標示有的時候比較專業"},{"start":3836.914,"end":3853.585,"text":"從專業的角度是比較專業一點但是讓消費者來講不容易明白到底這個含量這個成分是OK不OK是健康不健康那部長食品安全衛生管理法會不會增訂條文要求"},{"start":3854.185,"end":3873.355,"text":"超加工食品額外標示簡明的你剛剛講你們會開始做分級標示那會再入法去要求嗎那部長也從餓少的肥胖議題的角度上你如何看待我們的營養及健康飲食促進法上路一年了成效如何"},{"start":3877.017,"end":3883.679,"text":"確實剛上路我們目前所做的事情是先去擴大營養教育營養的認知的提升當然對於"},{"start":3893.081,"end":3906.278,"text":"國人的這個重視我想還有一些需要在我們更努力的地方確實所以那衛福部有沒有研究在台灣的兒少飲食習慣研究超加工食品對兒童跟孕婦的風險"},{"start":3907.699,"end":3926.162,"text":"有做這方面的嗎目前據我的了解是還沒有這方面的研究我們也期待你說對兒少跟家長的教育宣導跟廣告的管制也要拜託你們持續加強更積極讓家長也能夠去了解那這些政策我們也期待"},{"start":3926.702,"end":3951.828,"text":"你們應該讓兒少一起共同來參與因為也讓他們對於我們的政府的一些政策能夠了解那接下來是不是請衛福部也把這些完整的一個因應政策跟法規再提供給我們我們未來會讓國健署跟食藥署一起來合作提升這個部分那部長最後一個問題這個非常的重要雖然我們的召委已經站起來我們還是花一點時間"},{"start":3952.908,"end":3974.891,"text":"剛才我們談到的兒童參與這是兒權公約的最核心的精神也是為父母主責的業務那十年來我們都有不少進步像行政院兒委會都有兒少參與也是全世界絕無僅有的成果可是這幾年我們的制度都有沒有偏離初衷像台中最近發生的就兒少代表這件事情為例"},{"start":3975.592,"end":3999.102,"text":"去年台中市政府二月就公告兒少代表參與的規則跟六月完成遴選那兒少也收到通知了因為他們會前一年然後呢遴選進來之後開始賠例到今年就會開始去執行可是今年一月市府卻片面修改規則四月突然通知這些兒少說你們不能參加政府的會議"},{"start":3999.702,"end":4024.758,"text":"你去年已經是通知他說你已經是入企了結果今年說你不能進來還宣稱說這是依照中央的規範是你們中央規範跟兒權公約整個過程完全沒有跟兒少討論也沒有任何事前說明所以孩子手中的這個入企通知一夕之間變成是廢紙我想問部長台中市政府這種依照兒少"},{"start":4026.76,"end":4051.675,"text":"說依照中央的兒少權法的規範請問中央規範允許這樣的言而無信嗎我們會進一步的了解這個兒權法因為他們有這個設置要點所以兒權會怎麼去運作的程序我們會進一步了解同時會要求台中市政府在下一次我們的兒權"},{"start":4054.556,"end":4077.783,"text":"那個部裡面有一個兒少的福利與權益推動小組的會來做一個專案的報告所以我不只是要問這件事而是整個整體的體制度所以今天我只是先邀請部長一定要對這件事情表態不能放任地方政府去扭曲兒權公約部長你是否願意承諾全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制"},{"start":4078.925,"end":4106.203,"text":"你政府要邀请儿少出来要做公共参与却用这种方法来对待他们那我接着也会办一场儿少参与权的公听会也希望卫福部能够派组织单位能够来出席和民间跟儿少一起对话我们非常的支持要落实这个CRC的精神让这个儿少能够真正的参与各项的儿童相关的政策的制定过程"},{"start":4106.403,"end":4122.152,"text":"所以部長你可不可以先全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制好 我們來看一下各縣市政府的規定好 謝謝接下來請陳秦威委員來做選擇主席謝謝 我想請石部長來 請部長曾院長長"},{"start":4135.629,"end":4163.391,"text":"部長好 部長您是親子友善兒少保護法還有促進我們國家生育率的大家長但是您知道從9月22號開始高鐵全面上路 寧靜車廂的措施之後現在網路上有帶著家長的帶著小孩 家長帶著小孩還有反對這些小孩發出聲音的人已經在網路上大戰這件事情您知道嗎"},{"start":4165.087,"end":4192.64,"text":"我最近有聽說啦 最近有聽說我坐高鐵的時候也有看到它現在都有個牌子啦就是寧靜車等一下我會提供您一些截圖我先舉一些國外的案例國外呢 他們是比如說為了促進生育率一家四口 一家五口去旅行是坐國籍的航空或者是火車或者是他們一家去遊樂園是給予很多折扣的但是反觀我們台灣"},{"start":4193.78,"end":4214.587,"text":"我是很希望你可以拿出魄力來是不是可以跟交通部 高鐵或者是國籍的航空等等去談如何可以兼顧親子友善 兼顧生育率然後又不至於讓現在網路上炒成一團那您也需要出來主持空道啦我舉幾個案例讓您聽聽看"},{"start":4217.208,"end":4233.758,"text":"比如說現在高鐵他們會說如果說有發現這個小朋友可能有發出一些聲音干擾到其他的乘客他們會去協助安撫並且給予乖乖你覺得你贊成這樣子的做法嗎"},{"start":4236.363,"end":4260.471,"text":"這個不夠專業的做法你說為什麼這個應該要先瞭解協助瞭解這個孩子會哭鬧因為他的表達比較小的孩子他的表達不容易所以常常以哭鬧的方式來表達所以應該先去瞭解這個孩子真正會哭鬧的原因什麼來解決問題不是隨便給一個零食"},{"start":4261.511,"end":4278.821,"text":"是 高鐵的同仁如果是給予一些安撫那再加上給予餅乾等等請問你覺得這一組父母加上小孩會不會有可能被標籤化反而讓這個車廂其他乘客的人發現就是這些人在吵所以監務人員過來了"},{"start":4281.222,"end":4296.201,"text":"會不會 會不會被標籤化有這個可能性但是如果有孩子不斷的哭鬧我們還是應該主動的去關心我想這個那我再舉第二個例子這個都是實際發生的案例有一個戴大寶跟二寶的媽媽她因為被舉牌"},{"start":4300.146,"end":4326.294,"text":"要求降低音量所以勸導說你可以帶寶寶到車廂跟車廂中間的走道去安撫這件事情我本人也做過我有三個那三個都這樣子做過結果呢他只能把大寶放在座位上帶著二寶到車廂中間去安撫我想問他讓大寶單獨留在車廂被迫單獨留在車廂是不是違反了兒少保護法"},{"start":4327.114,"end":4353.832,"text":"是不是这样的处理方式并不恰当那您有什么建议吗我还是那个我们整个车厢维持车厢的安宁对于多数的乘客是有好处这个我们不反对但是对于按照我们儿少福利法的规定在交通方面还是要对亲子友善好"},{"start":4354.893,"end":4376.626,"text":"這就是我一再強調的我們跟其他國家差很多其他國家他也許會在一些觀光的網站上去特別註明哪些餐廳親子友善推薦大家去那他們的車廂有些國家是採取部分車廂寧靜但其他車廂他不會特別標註親子友善可是他也不會那麼在意營量"},{"start":4378.728,"end":4391.563,"text":"請問你大概在什麼時間內可以去找到高鐵或是交通部做這樣子的溝通可以給大家滿多家長在關心這個議題請問你大概多久以內可以去做這個協調"},{"start":4393.304,"end":4413.089,"text":"我們在9月2號其實已經發函去了解了請這個交通部去督導這個高鐵公司因為高鐵公司的這個主管機關是交通部所以我們也請了交通部去督導那麼我們會進一步去追蹤這個最後結果大概多久以內"},{"start":4413.929,"end":4427.857,"text":"因為現在每天他們都在網路上炒翻天這個您知道嗎一個月內嗎一個月內我希望你跟交通部可以共擬出一個稍微彈性的做法不要再引起兩方之間的互相仇視好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":4431.24,"end":4453.474,"text":"好下一個是您接受了採訪我知道你講了很多很多的關於醫療方面的改革但我今天稍微講兩點就好了有一點是您提到在醫療飽和區也就是蛋黃區健保診所太多的地方就不給開了請自行前往醫療資源不足的地方開立診所"},{"start":4453.954,"end":4477.682,"text":"好現在有許多醫師可能比較多是新出來的醫師他會說所以你是請我們回家吃自己嗎因為在這個蛋黃區都會區為什麼會這樣做我跟你講他們的心聲很多人講啊他說我要選擇在哪邊職業當然除了薪資以外我還要考慮我配偶的工作對吧我還要考慮小孩就學的問題"},{"start":4478.542,"end":4503.79,"text":"如果他有長輩要就近照顧還有長輩要照顧那這些地方變成蛋黃區是因為很多原因造成的而不是說他特意去把這些地方列為他的首選所以我想要問你可不可以變更你的做法你要不要去針對醫療資源不足的地方給予更多的誘因而讓各種不同世代的醫師都願意去那個地方"},{"start":4505.561,"end":4520.041,"text":"這個跟委員說明按照我們的醫師法的規定或醫療法的規定醫師當然有他的職業自由他可以在任何一個地方只要他取得了合格的醫師執照他都可以開業"},{"start":4521.343,"end":4540.542,"text":"但是健保有它的特約規定那麼針對醫療資源應該要納入它健保特約的時候的考量因為健保的資源是有限的所以有一些不是健保特約的診所但是如果是要健保特約的診所健保必須考慮到它所"},{"start":4541.443,"end":4570.562,"text":"提供服務的可進性跟資源的平衡性就好像我們現在在總額之下在分配各個縣市或者是各個區域的總額也是有它的分配的考量我剛剛已經跟你講得很清楚了他會選擇這個地方他當然也想兼顧你所謂的醫療資源等等的但他還有其他考慮的面向那你現在的意思就是說這一區已經很多人來了你就不要再來了"},{"start":4571.603,"end":4590.323,"text":"那是先到先贏的概念所以在這個制度之下我們會有折約特優的概念而不是所有的人就是你要特約就一直特約一直特約我們在醫學生的部分是有管制的就是總人數這個不是一個完全自由的市場所以在"},{"start":4591.224,"end":4612.37,"text":"提供服務的時候也應該要有所邏輯而不是說就完全是放任性的那這樣前面加強管制出口端進口端供應端是管制的結果到後來執行業務的時候卻自由的放任那這樣反而造成另外一種不公"},{"start":4613.243,"end":4639.557,"text":"我是給你一個建議請部長考量一下是不是願意到醫療資源不足的地方你給予更多的誘因而不是去限制他們不准去已經飽和的地方這個是大家現在很反彈的當然跟委員說明要解決這個醫療資源不足地區還有很多的方式這個也不是單單的一個不過這個是希望能夠讓醫療資源的分布也能夠更平衡"},{"start":4641.893,"end":4667.938,"text":"讓這個多少人口多少醫師因為我們所有的醫學生也是按照這樣在管制所以要按照當地多少人口需要多少醫師來特約這個才是符合我們健保的精神這邊有兩件事情我希望一個月看可不可以給予可行性評估第二件事情也是很多人在意的就是說現在在醫院職業的醫師每一筆錢他都必須要繳稅勞基法"},{"start":4670.238,"end":4685.837,"text":"適用加班費免稅可是你也知道非常多主治医師以上層級的並不是用勞基法所以工時比人家長很多可是沒有免稅的比例原則那亞東醫院院長最近就有出來講了很長一段的話大概跟你講"},{"start":4686.798,"end":4713.228,"text":"他說最具醫療韌性也就是最具戰時韌性的這群人反而是近年來流失最快的其中包括武大科 包括急重症包括急診等等的那這些人才困難的他就是在夜間 假日值班最多的那除了提高他的健保點值以外因為提高以後 他工作很辛苦但在最後又繳稅了"},{"start":4714.668,"end":4725.144,"text":"所以他必須要雙重雙軌之下你有辦法留住這些人第一個就是額外津貼第二個就是他的夜間他的假日值班他的這些業務應該要免稅請問以上兩點就是關於"},{"start":4731.812,"end":4747.177,"text":"則量能特約還有這個免稅跟津貼雙軌制來拯救這些人才流失最多的這顆你有沒有辦法一個月內給予可行性評估因為你今年已經編了過兆的健保預算了"},{"start":4749.976,"end":4773.708,"text":"這個醫師的稅負公平性的問題我之前就已經注意到這個事情因為目前在醫院工作者裡面只有醫師還沒有納入勞基法其餘都是已經適用勞基法而適用勞基法人員裡面他有一個加班費是適用所得稅法免稅規定但是因為勞基法有他的加班時數的上限"},{"start":4773.988,"end":4802.267,"text":"所以在那个额度内呢其实是已经符合免税目前就已经在执行了倒是因为医师他没有适用这个劳基法的关系再加上医疗的特性跟这个病人的需要所以他的加班时间往往呢是高于这个劳基法所规定的这个加班的上限所以在这个现实的情形之下我们一直在努力的在沟通你要跟谁沟通劳动部财政部你要"},{"start":4803.388,"end":4817.948,"text":"这个税负的主管机关是财政部所以你希望往院长讲的这个方向前进就是要让这个叫做税负公平它一样是因为延长工作时间那么所得到的这一些收入"},{"start":4818.789,"end":4834.831,"text":"就是所謂的加班費所以一個月內這兩點我們等一下送個書面可不可以請你給我們可行性的評估這個書面是沒有問題的那只是說在推動的過程當中也需要委員來給我們協助因為這個還有跟財政部之間的溝通"},{"start":4835.131,"end":4857.977,"text":"好第三個我們要問的問題是最近我們有一個好運3方案當然右邊這邊我就先不多說了右邊大家有知道說原來10萬塊講得很好聽結果不同級別的保險他只是去補差額所以如果是比如說勞保的他幾乎差額只有一點點他並不是這麼的有感但"},{"start":4858.937,"end":4879.446,"text":"考量問到許多專家他們都覺得每個月的津貼才是真正可以促進生育率的方式而不是這種單次一次性的那之前陳時中政委他在其他的媒體採訪裡面他自己都講喔他說一個月他覺得要拿到三萬塊才算是有感的補貼才願意"},{"start":4881.547,"end":4907.866,"text":"這個促進生育啊等等的當我們去試算每一個縣市就算是最好最好的狀況大概都沒有到2萬那我們看一下這個表看一下這個表現在是0到6歲的嬰幼兒每月主要的開銷包括尿布啊 副食品或是你自己在家帶托育等等如果你是自己帶或是準公共比較難抽到的比較偏向2萬但如果是送到托育可能會偏向4萬塊"},{"start":4909.767,"end":4930.243,"text":"但是你現在的育嬰育兒津貼已經非常久沒有調整了第一名子女每個月五千第二名每個月六千第三名每個月七千你有沒有考慮把它調高主席快結束來響應陳時中政委所說的家總至少要折合三萬塊民眾才會有感"},{"start":4932.066,"end":4951.401,"text":"跟委員說明當然這一個擴大生育補助方案就是讓大家的這個補助讓他拉齊不會因為你的身份不同得到的最後的那個補助不同所以把公保 勞保 國保等等的保險甚至都沒有保的也都把它拉在一起所以這個是"},{"start":4952.282,"end":4981.485,"text":"第一步而已那自己为了减轻年轻这个父母对于这个育儿上的压力当然有育儿津贴刚刚您提到的这样但是我们也另外有这个准托育跟这个公托跟准公托的补助那个我记得如果是准公托的话也到一万三到一万五就是看你的胎次会逐步的增加我知道但是我刚就有讲有些人他是并没有用到托育的嘛嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":4982.485,"end":5005.555,"text":"这个十万块我们才发现说原来很多人是没有劳保的这个下去我们才发现为什么我们要去补是真的很多人没有劳保所以他不一定会有用到托育因为托育你就只能选一个嘛你的育儿津贴跟托育他就只能选择一个嘛所以我讲的是这个族群的人你有没有办法协助他"},{"start":5006.488,"end":5022.177,"text":"您说的是完全没有完全没有参加任何保险我讲的是他可能没有用到托育的那就是育儿津贴对一个是托育补助一个是育儿津贴这二则一您的意思是说"},{"start":5023.769,"end":5048.063,"text":"沒有托育的就是育兒津貼的部分就是他必須申請育兒津貼的這部分你有沒有考慮再把它往上提育兒津貼的部分再增加的意思是我們來研究看看在政府的財政的能力下因為現在因為這個財法法的關係中央的統籌分配管也受到影響所以我們再來評估看看那我們再跟你做報告謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":5053.584,"end":5071.702,"text":"接下來請林淑穎委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們石部長來 請部長委員好"},{"start":5078.607,"end":5098.369,"text":"部長 今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市 桃園市 高雄市 屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬 已經開出去的"},{"start":5099.97,"end":5122.413,"text":"那算是很重的罚处分应该是历年来算是最重的历年来最重的整个状况我们看到几个新闻稿第一个是10月3号露出的整个新闻露出第一时间是屏东地方检察署的新闻稿"},{"start":5123.214,"end":5142.22,"text":"新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天"},{"start":5143.16,"end":5167.789,"text":"比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動"},{"start":5168.829,"end":5191.988,"text":"你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調公務員報告因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的所以等於是"},{"start":5192.008,"end":5205.383,"text":"你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉"},{"start":5214.297,"end":5224.783,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有這個偵查寶弟你不要再說一句了這個案件據我所知6月的時候"},{"start":5233.769,"end":5261.611,"text":"檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的"},{"start":5262.939,"end":5274.791,"text":"該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的"},{"start":5278.875,"end":5290.641,"text":"是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說它是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰它五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉"},{"start":5306.77,"end":5328.262,"text":"那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已所以我們內部有要求檢討整個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化"},{"start":5333.391,"end":5343.183,"text":"那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜管單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢"},{"start":5347.286,"end":5374.543,"text":"這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期"},{"start":5375.524,"end":5397.444,"text":"共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤了解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶部的說明結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎"},{"start":5398.308,"end":5425.369,"text":"我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權後來發現有這個司法權進入這個這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查"},{"start":5427.711,"end":5442.218,"text":"初步調查就是行政調查嘛行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查"},{"start":5443.078,"end":5459.165,"text":"但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的"},{"start":5462.166,"end":5472.894,"text":"然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為"},{"start":5474.468,"end":5496.882,"text":"如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索"},{"start":5497.722,"end":5508.906,"text":"在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚 吃下肚誰要負責 誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在 署長你講了大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎"},{"start":5518.189,"end":5537.216,"text":"行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律 食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長 署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號"},{"start":5539.52,"end":5565.596,"text":"有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保七總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號"},{"start":5566.897,"end":5587.989,"text":"地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的重要案件裡面能夠主長 我們食安法第41條第二項"},{"start":5590.971,"end":5610.747,"text":"我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水 雙氧水在那裡"},{"start":5612.062,"end":5635.317,"text":"然後你們說7月底檢調就列案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去 怕證據被消失那我們 我跟你說實案法大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了"},{"start":5636.758,"end":5661.115,"text":"照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了"},{"start":5661.969,"end":5668.69,"text":"你們在這裡 照書上說的交給司法單位 檢警單位比較保全"},{"start":5670.253,"end":5695.566,"text":"那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼"},{"start":5696.567,"end":5714.269,"text":"我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量 自行決定"},{"start":5715.51,"end":5743.6,"text":"全責不分 你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失 制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查不調查有沒有調查部長剛才說的你們都不知道 頂頭都不知道那這樣子有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性"},{"start":5744.64,"end":5767.354,"text":"所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們"},{"start":5769.71,"end":5796.499,"text":"是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用"},{"start":5797.379,"end":5821.556,"text":"食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你們在這裡回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處 不是食安五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管"},{"start":5822.745,"end":5848.424,"text":"沒有 完全都沒有 預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉 到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡 你們是連有鬼都不抓"},{"start":5851.482,"end":5866.388,"text":"6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做"},{"start":5869.929,"end":5890.158,"text":"我因為有問 這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件 蘇丹紅事件 所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權"},{"start":5891.516,"end":5917.743,"text":"直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後"},{"start":5918.723,"end":5933.391,"text":"然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定"},{"start":5934.488,"end":5948.655,"text":"人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了 揭弊了食藥署"},{"start":5950.786,"end":5969.422,"text":"卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務"},{"start":5970.803,"end":5996.932,"text":"让无辜的人民继续吃更多部长你觉得这样合理吗你自己可以接受吗这个我跟委员一样在这个事情处理过程当中我已经要求内部要先提检讨报告那么包含接受检举之后的所有的SOP的检讨还有内部通报流程的检讨那么以及"},{"start":5997.972,"end":6022.344,"text":"不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已"},{"start":6023.26,"end":6039.517,"text":"你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩"},{"start":6040.518,"end":6055.932,"text":"今天黑心的大長案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議 尤其是"},{"start":6056.833,"end":6072.541,"text":"食藥署很常以偵查不公開唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己未善盡行政監督之責"},{"start":6073.641,"end":6087.912,"text":"所以我们今天食安的问题不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼"},{"start":6088.712,"end":6117.494,"text":"所以如果這種狀況大概有鬼就不抓了所以這不僅是行政失責還可能構成瀆職和洩密的刑責在這種狀況裡面部長我在這裡要求這個內部內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人瀆職有沒有人要被追究責任行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊"},{"start":6118.434,"end":6136.655,"text":"這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要這樣黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成制度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革"},{"start":6137.908,"end":6150.581,"text":"這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項"},{"start":6154.522,"end":6173.87,"text":"就有了然後你剛才報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做"},{"start":6174.73,"end":6202.217,"text":"然後再來諮詢 言有上4月的諮詢 言有在而 還不到半年 接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了 中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉 這樣不對的 行政究責 制度改善好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒部長署長 今天會排這個專案報告一定是有特殊的原因謝謝 來"},{"start":6205.557,"end":6217.243,"text":"來接下來請王育民委員來做選擇好謝謝主席我們有請部長來請部長王議員好"},{"start":6222.881,"end":6244.7,"text":"部長好 部長這個黑心大腸的案件事實上讓民眾非常的恐慌因為它涉及到我們的國民小吃大腸麵線連知名達州麵線通通都中標而且它的量坦白講是蠻大的所以剛剛提到了如果6月你們就接到檢舉你們什麼時候才下架封城"},{"start":6246.958,"end":6259.071,"text":"跟委員報告當然這個事件上的處理的速度應該要更快啦那我們在這個封存是從10月3號開始進行這個封存跟下架"},{"start":6259.659,"end":6275.635,"text":"所以你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎如果六月檢舉 十月才下架封存整整四個月的時間有多少無辜的台灣老百姓吃下了這個泡有工業用的漂白水的大腸"},{"start":6277.156,"end":6299.601,"text":"這個涉及到國人食安第一個我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架封存的動作按照處理食安的標準跟原則如果6月份這個檢舉這麼的確切而且有直指工業用的漂白水的話從食藥署你們到現場直接就把大腸拿出來檢驗"},{"start":6301.081,"end":6320.472,"text":"也很快就會發現這需要減掉嗎你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出他是不是含有工業級的漂白水不是嗎為什麼沒有做其實我們當場去搜索的時候去驗的時候就驗過了所以其實是沒有"},{"start":6321.933,"end":6345.012,"text":"雙氧水的殘留6月份沒有驗到不是6月份我們後來去搜索10月1號的時候10月1號也沒有驗到沒有驗到但是它的標示裡面直接寫是所謂的工業用的雙氧水這就明顯違反了食安法裡面的食用級的雙氧水雙氧水在食用級裡面在我們的食品添加物叫做殺菌劑它是可用的"},{"start":6345.692,"end":6369.033,"text":"但是他用的 他不能用在食品啊 這個署長我們要聽這部分的解釋第一個我要問的就是六月份的檢舉信函 他有沒有直指他是使用工業用的漂白水然後添加在這個大廠裡面 有沒有有或沒有 他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用 但是呢我們"},{"start":6370.473,"end":6383.078,"text":"初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有"},{"start":6383.885,"end":6403.607,"text":"他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這邊跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就是協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部"},{"start":6405.129,"end":6421.258,"text":"能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是市政不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心"},{"start":6422.279,"end":6441.394,"text":"到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移"},{"start":6441.954,"end":6469.913,"text":"因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才"},{"start":6471.134,"end":6496.943,"text":"請問委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國 會不會通風報信會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級 工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧的 純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者"},{"start":6499.404,"end":6525.94,"text":"明知顾犯做了这件事情我们不允许但他可能潜在的风险我相信我们不愿意他存在但是他对于查到这样子黑心的业者神之余法更重于其他的一切所以我有这样子的考量之下做了这样子的一个裁量你刚刚的这样的说法但是你为求证据的保全你相信保七总队你前前后后浪费了四个月的时间"},{"start":6526.96,"end":6554.065,"text":"才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間"},{"start":6555.706,"end":6578.007,"text":"發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的"},{"start":6579.088,"end":6607.458,"text":"你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊 你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查 查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦 部長這件事情其實部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這個處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例"},{"start":6608.038,"end":6628.891,"text":"来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获"},{"start":6629.711,"end":6655.657,"text":"即使因为我们介入之后而没有办法让检调收集到足够的证据而没有办法绳之以法但是我们至少保障了国人的安全这个才是最重要我觉得你的优先顺序一定要调整回来你是卫福部我们的食安法就是保障国人的食安而不是有力检调去侦办这两者如果必须取舍的时候当然是食安第一优先"},{"start":6656.537,"end":6684.493,"text":"你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的"},{"start":6685.293,"end":6705.459,"text":"你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導 先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這一種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開發"},{"start":6706.819,"end":6723.399,"text":"該怎麼罰就要怎麼罰你們現在的罰款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我們整個食品業我們就是不能讓劣幣進來發現劣幣就是驅逐我們要確保我們的食安就是這樣我們獎勵優良的"},{"start":6724.7,"end":6744.542,"text":"願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了"},{"start":6745.143,"end":6762.191,"text":"就是食品業者自主管理的機制 坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料 半成品 成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做"},{"start":6763.393,"end":6777.701,"text":"就是第七條當時就是一個希望業者可以自律的條款但是食安法已經通過這麼多年了我要問的是如果他是不良業者他從來沒有針對他的原料搬成品成品在做檢驗"},{"start":6779.212,"end":6797.662,"text":"你市交署會知道嗎你衛福不知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個"},{"start":6800.503,"end":6817.513,"text":"針對業者自主管理機制第七條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個"},{"start":6819.194,"end":6845.988,"text":"稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法"},{"start":6846.368,"end":6872.328,"text":"好 我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個也是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品它要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題"},{"start":6873.829,"end":6878.78,"text":"你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整"},{"start":6880.462,"end":6903.787,"text":"因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個就是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題"},{"start":6908.228,"end":6923.54,"text":"这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药"},{"start":6924.461,"end":6948.494,"text":"但是它原廠藥都是過了專利期所以它都有其他的學名藥所以它考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在它專利期內它是獨大所以它藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥就要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降它最後就會轉移它的生產線所以像這個百優解 千優解都是這樣考量"},{"start":6948.854,"end":6971.776,"text":"他是不再製造了他就因為學名要太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會"},{"start":6972.576,"end":6992.564,"text":"轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有"},{"start":6993.004,"end":7008.239,"text":"那那個是瑞士的藥廠他停產但是我們就找到那個日本的一個藥廠他就是學名藥所以未來就會以這個來做取代所以這個只要能夠提早通報那大概我們都可以處理得來不會造成"},{"start":7008.339,"end":7036.037,"text":"因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段時間所以我希望這一個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好謝謝委員"},{"start":7038.058,"end":7055.692,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝部長委員會在這邊宣告 等一下請等一下邱委員政經懸打結束之後我們去10分鐘接下來請邱政經委員來做懸打主席好 我們請部長來 有請部長"},{"start":7059.693,"end":7077.302,"text":"介委員好 部長好我看好幾個委員都非常重視這個案子那最近這起百味十品漂白豬大腸的案件你開罰了五千四百萬那民眾吃進去的可能是工業用雙氧水那我想請問一下這樣的案子算不算重大的死案事件"},{"start":7078.241,"end":7103.618,"text":"跟委員報告這個目前在當然這個是我們不允許雖然說這個雙氧水算不算重大你只要回答是不是就好了以目前我們這個查驗到因為這個使用的普遍性很廣所以是大還是不大這個是等於日常的這個大還是不大嘛所以我們很重視這件事情所以又啟動所有的專案那目前查起來呢那麼目前的"},{"start":7105.94,"end":7133.233,"text":"在市面上的食品都還是符合這個大腸我問你它算不算重大的這個食安案件你講那麼多我們很重視這個案子但是目前來講不算大就對了 這還不算大所有的食安都是重大這個是人民的健康這麼嚴重的事情怎麼會不大呢所有的食安我們來看都是一樣大為什麼我們今天在專報裡面一個字都沒看到"},{"start":7134.956,"end":7153.698,"text":"您的意思是你今天的兩份專報食安辦這份報告雖然有寫跟沒寫差不多但是他們至少還有提那衛福部是一個字都沒有現在是工業用的化學品跑進食物裡面民眾吃下去會危害身體健康你們不用跟民眾說清楚嗎還是財閥單開完就好了"},{"start":7155.6,"end":7167.708,"text":"沒有 所有的食安事件我們都是認為都是一樣的重大為什麼這裡面沒有為什麼沒有寫啦為什麼沒有說明呢沒有輕重之分所有的食安事件我問你有沒有說明你跟我講輕重幹什麼"},{"start":7169.426,"end":7186.847,"text":"就沒有行走所有的實案所以都不用寫就對了你不用跟國會交代你不用跟人民交代啊這麼嚴重的事情你不用跟國會交代嗎不用跟立法委員交代嗎我們是民意代表耶一定要跟委員報告對啊 你為什麼裡面不說呢"},{"start":7188.362,"end":7210.074,"text":"我們都是看媒體啊看其他東西來的我們都是一樣的重大沒有什麼輕重之分行政程序法裡面明確規定司法偵查中的案件若涉及公共利益或重大食安風險主管機關仍可適度的公開這個相關的資訊你不要告訴我剛剛有講說不要說因為剪掉介入之後然後你就把這事情蓋牌都不講對不對那這麼"},{"start":7213.776,"end":7235.003,"text":"這麼重大的事情怎麼不算是食安的重大風險呢還是你覺得網上有公佈大概然後記者有問再回答就算交代了沒有這個跟委員報告我們就是認為他很重大所以呢在檢調雖然還在偵查當中但是我們就公佈了流向然後他到哪個地方去我們就公佈了有很多問題啊你那個話太多了而且講的都不是我要問的"},{"start":7235.803,"end":7244.674,"text":"那今天兩份報告在補強食安稽查人力的部分理論上數字應該是要一致的嘛但是食安辦寫報告報告裡面寫說本願於114年同意合爭食藥署預算員額大概20名"},{"start":7253.524,"end":7268.032,"text":"那衛福部說於2月27號霍仁市總署同意合爭邊境查驗預算員24名所以我要問一下這是以誰的為準還是你們各講一半還是合起來加起來是44人"},{"start":7270.874,"end":7294.251,"text":"我來做個說明 跟委員說明因為這個時額20人 4人是要就現有的去調整的20還是24 總共是44就對了不是 總共是20人從院來看新增的是20人 4人是工作內容去調整的所以他是24人就對了"},{"start":7296.883,"end":7323.472,"text":"20人 新增的20人那另外的4人是希望食藥署就現有工作的內容去調配他需要24嘛我們合20但是我們只能夠所以你們還是新增20人就對了那你們兩份報告隔一天送進來結果連這個基本人數這個看都看不太懂那我想這個光這麼簡單的事情我們都可以寫得不太一樣我想問一下這些人力何時到位"},{"start":7326.823,"end":7352.924,"text":"我們現在24個人力的和目前就是積極在爭取現在在已經陸陸續續都已經進入我們的北區的那加入之後我們的食安就可以安心了嗎我們針對上面的一些人力我們跟地方其實共同因為我看到每一次食安的事情發生的時候我們都先檢討人力啦 對不對所以我們認為只要把人人事人員安排好就可以解決食安的問題是這樣嗎"},{"start":7354.205,"end":7363.692,"text":"跟委員說明當然不全然只是人力的問題還有包含我們制度上的檢討還有運用一些科技的執法方式這個都要一併做檢討"},{"start":7364.875,"end":7391.606,"text":"好 我現在再講回到這個今天的問題根據目前的資料我們立泰肉店從6月份跟百威食品進豬大腸那目前資訊是在8、9月間百威食品涉嫌用低價購買的有問題的豬大腸再用工業用漂白水去去味那10月2號食藥署接貨通報然後會同檢調去搜查所以這件事是民眾檢舉才發現的嗎"},{"start":7393.618,"end":7405.756,"text":"對 這一個案子是民眾檢舉的好 那我今天要講就是說我們很多事情都要靠民眾檢舉那就表示我們食安五環裡面的前四環都失效了那強化源頭沒做到"},{"start":7406.874,"end":7435.247,"text":"重建生產沒落實加強茶葉沒抓到加重責任等檢舉花幾百億打造的食安五環結果還是要靠民眾來檢舉第五環是靠全民監督你們應該改成全民救援吧跟委員報告其實前幾環它有它的角色因為它的整個登錄系統的完備那麼一方面讓業者不敢亂蠢動因為這個上下可以勾擊"},{"start":7436.147,"end":7449.433,"text":"那第二個呢我們從這個大數據裡面也可以發現及時的發現一些高風險然後進行中央跟地方的聯合稽查它還是有它的功能可是還是會有像這樣的漏網我請問一下食安辦我們的許主任"},{"start":7452.523,"end":7470.263,"text":"你是行政院層級的負責跨部會的統整的單位屏東這次百味食品漂白豬大腸農業部說土體都有合格證明但檢方卻查到便便的豬大腸被漂白後販售那請問到底這是哪個地方出錯的"},{"start":7472.941,"end":7500.223,"text":"應該這樣來是農業部誤判合格土地還是那些病變豬場根本就不是從合法屠宰場出來的他不是一個病變的情況那我讓我講一下從頭農業部在合法的屠宰場經過獸醫師的檢查之後屠宰出來出場的都是一個合法的並不是說從病死的然後從場外進來的所以在這一案裡面他的這個豬場的來源是正常的"},{"start":7500.663,"end":7509.936,"text":"那因為豬腸它算是一種排內障裡面是很髒的它可能還有糞便還有別的所以要經過清洗之後那為什麼檢方會這樣講"},{"start":7512.2,"end":7539.039,"text":"檢方為什麼會這樣講檢方為什麼會這樣講他可能有一點誤會因為這裡面那個腸子內外一開始的時候是要經過一個各種很多次的去清洗的然後還有味道所以雙氧水很可能是用來除味道的這個措施所以整個它過程是這樣子那審計部報告講得很清楚政府為了控管化學物質的"},{"start":7540.361,"end":7549.219,"text":"這個流向從105年開始建立化學園那到113年8月底你們有沒有跟勞動部的化學品報備平台這個比對過"},{"start":7551.494,"end":7573.456,"text":"有沒有比對過委員好 這邊跟委員做進一步的說明針對我們現在化學署裡面建置的所謂跨部會化學物質的資訊平台食藥署這邊我們有化學物質流向鏈接跨部會的資訊系統跟化學雲選定化學物質我們做了串接所以我們化學雲的部分選擇了19項化學物質"},{"start":7575.518,"end":7602.77,"text":"另外跟食品業者可疑的部分有62這個漂白水算嗎 有沒有含在裡面漂白水 雙氧水它用途極廣所以原先我們從來沒有發生過這樣子的議題所以它沒有被列入所謂的化學那未來會不會列入我想這部分我們在積極在研議當中是否 因為它牽涉的因為它在購買 我這樣講它今天是用我們這一家公司叫什麼百威它是用百威食品去"},{"start":7604.814,"end":7605.456,"text":"購買這個工業用漂白水嗎"},{"start":7607.104,"end":7634.427,"text":"應該是 他是用他的這個有確定是嗎那我們這樣 我在這邊建議就是說當他有這種 他是食品公司他買這種東西 買工業用漂白水的時候這個時候我們的系統就要自動示警就要示警 然後讓我們的人員去查這個能夠注意到有這樣的事情是不是他買這麼大量 他到底用在哪裡是不是要進一步的瞭解我想這個我希望你們繼續努力"},{"start":7635.168,"end":7655.646,"text":"不要說我們食安論文員報告就是說我們跟這個環境部那個化學雲有合作的關係那因為這個雙氧水等於是第一次發現這個狀況所以我們會考慮把它列入在我們的風險其實很多東西很多食物我認為很多人都會之前也聽到很多用漂白水洗過的吧對不對"},{"start":7656.647,"end":7671.718,"text":"他為了賣一下 漂白鹹是可以用的只是不能夠用工業級的他明明知道不可用才用是錯在這裡對所以我想他所以你工業用的漂白鹹本來就要管控嘛不是嗎對 對不對食品級的我們都有積極的管理"},{"start":7672.557,"end":7695.445,"text":"好啦 最後我這樣講啦 因為時間的關係我要求這個執行是你們食藥署跟地方稽查人員那第一請食安辦在一個月內提出跨部會整合這個時程表現在三個系統各做各 就算有串聯啦我希望你們把一些該列入的都把它列入"},{"start":7696.425,"end":7719.845,"text":"如果讓我們這個稽查人員在這個稽查的時候能夠直接跳出警示不要全部都人工在核對那第二請你們建立預警的機制就是說剛剛我們講了就是說這些東西只要跑到這個食品鏈裡面我希望你們自動把它這個警示出來讓我們底下人好做事好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":7723.642,"end":7727.826,"text":"好 我們休息文中啦這個蘇昭偉跟這個黃昭偉兩個虎視眈眈對著我所以沒辦法 快點 謝謝"},{"start":7784.769,"end":7789.936,"text":"還是要符合我們在"},{"start":8367.418,"end":8383.243,"text":"好 請趕快就座 那個兩個召委虎視眈眈 一直在看著你們好 我們請蘇清雪召委來做選答"},{"start":8392.669,"end":8416.346,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我們讓部長休息啦我們食藥署姜署長來 有請姜署長還有我們食安辦的許主任還有我們那個健保署的陳署長陳署長 你三個可以到不然你會被我們拜國總執行我帶來好好幫忙好來"},{"start":8419.111,"end":8441.219,"text":"為了這個大廠這個事情 我昨天前天我在屏東我爸爸去屏東拍賣場 屠宰場還有在台地的 還有在地霸的 我都去問我跟你講 我們行政院你剛剛講跟邱成金的對話 我也聽了"},{"start":8443.587,"end":8472.1,"text":"我覺得這個問題好像不是食藥署的事這個問題是受益受益的事受益就是受益師全聯會跟中央續產會有派到各個所有的屠宰場有受益的這一次的這個大廠應該不是進口的本土的是我們台灣的你看這個就是大廠"},{"start":8474.076,"end":8498.246,"text":"看一看 這是這個現在你的痘痘因為痘痘有可能破壞我說這是很實際的 很到位的我是到現場的痘痘有破壞看起來外表還好但是裡面有生病就好像人一樣你的痘痘如果瘀起來會怎麼樣受醫師是不能放行的"},{"start":8499.011,"end":8524.319,"text":"他就要跟我說 這裡不行 他就要上去化製廠就等於像死的蝶 要去化製煮的蔥 變成起料 還是變成肥料他這個不放心像平常有三個屠宰線就是要三個授意師今天農委會的人沒有來農業部的人沒有來 要來的話我就把他頂了"},{"start":8526.57,"end":8551.101,"text":"你這個秀姨去那裡有檢索崗位嗎有確實去跟她看嗎還是說有人有可能有命沒有人去那裡那這樣就很糟糕了喔是所以她要不要放行她應不應該放行我們是這一這個階段那這個是出問題是出在這個出在這裡喔 出在這裡這裡就出問題了"},{"start":8553.642,"end":8579.611,"text":"現在他回去已經歐了還是說賣了他就賣了嘛回去一天很累 流很多很多很多現在你再來就是食藥署獵雞合園獵雞合園在哪個地方是在哪個你的角色是從哪裡開始署長你怎麼知道我看你也知道了你回答好你回答我來代替你報告"},{"start":8581.211,"end":8607.939,"text":"我們跨部會的分工 假如這個屠宰線在這個線 在這個房間裡現在相片這個相片裡面的屠宰線都是在農方 就是獸醫師要確保之後這一個房間裡面都完成但是假如出了這個房間特別是去分切 去處理之後假如是由另一個業者食品的業者的時候那個時候就會輪到食藥署"},{"start":8609.488,"end":8626.68,"text":"我跟你講 屏東縣現在像嘉義鄉 像泰安 石屏他們現在在那裡在拍賣場 我也有去拍賣場我也在那裡吃雞 他們在那邊拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一拼一�"},{"start":8636.827,"end":8662.143,"text":"有的一天在殺七八百頭像太安 像嘉義鄉的話他一天也是兩三百頭在殺四射的其他的都在屏東的屠宰場我現在要問你的就是說你這個事情要去怪時部長怪江署長不對的因為是前面那個環節出事了他現在是在亡羊補牢在騎車"},{"start":8663.504,"end":8687.644,"text":"你現在這個衆議有盡量他的責任嗎我們要解釋 釐清責任就這樣嘛你現在衆議是屬於公部門的人還是中央市長會名聘的還是受益司派來派On call的 白班的到底是 這段是出事的要追究 追究這裡的人不是追究江署長江署長沒過位啊"},{"start":8691.044,"end":8717.421,"text":"就我所知道這個都是由中央續產會統一去約聘然後獸醫師在裡面去管理但是也是由房檢署農業部房檢署他有一個獸醫師的管理系統這個要在這個上面去回報的委員剛剛所說的就是說獸醫師是不是有盡責在做對我們來講的時候就是"},{"start":8718.201,"end":8741.452,"text":"相信第一線的獸醫師很類似我們在看醫生一樣他的判斷那通常我所知道啦很嚴重的不會讓他進來但是常常有一些因為豬還活著然後有的時候不一定看得出來說他是因為生病才變黑或怎麼樣或者是說他是已經在屠宰的時候腸胃道破掉怎麼樣來"},{"start":8743.013,"end":8765.311,"text":"包括那些私人屠宰場他們抬高之後 業內賬也是交給這個公司最高的百貨 百貨商會去處理他們自己也沒有什麼要處理的那些賬都高高處理所以這個公司像這個百貨它的公司設在台北60%在台北 我經常說物量在屏東然後社會成本在屏東"},{"start":8766.172,"end":8775.936,"text":"我看到就很麻煩很囂張就去啊這家的夫婦 家裡夫婦都給你頂起來我要問時事部長 他說頂起來這家的書店都委託他處理喔那你只要說你的角色是從哪裡開始你的角色從哪裡開始 講什麼"},{"start":8791.331,"end":8816.2,"text":"你是在菜市場還是在酒店還是在那個我們其實是屠宰場那個房間出去之後分切開始就歸食藥署裡面的來做管理那他 我就問說他那個用漂白水是在屠宰場裡面漂白還是拿到工廠去漂白他拿到後面的貨櫃屋裡面那非常高地監視底下的貨櫃屋我們來拍個考察好不好"},{"start":8817.921,"end":8836.406,"text":"就真的很到位的去看在後面的貨櫃小房間就開幹了 是不是這樣是這很嚴肅的問題喔是拉到他的工廠那拉到他的工廠去處理的時候有沒有冷鏈 有沒有冷藏這個都目前看到是都沒有都沒有嘛"},{"start":8837.236,"end":8847.715,"text":"所以都有可能 都會腐敗啊你說在屠宰場裡面就在霧啊或是說頭後面的小貨櫃屋或是頭後面的工廠那工廠是中地在嘗試啊"},{"start":8849.008,"end":8873.583,"text":"所以好幾家所以這個我希望行政院你這個成績的你要來釐清好 恆的協調要好畢竟我們這個是天天在吃啊我常常在吃那個什麼米酸雞 米酸那個就好了那個現在越想越恐怖耶我為台北就在吃耶 吃得很厲害又沒死又不錯"},{"start":8875.544,"end":8897.898,"text":"所以這個是很嚴肅的東西建國外的可能也一樣啦你也是一樣在吃啦所以這個要釐清楚到現在不希望再有這種事情發生這太差勁了吧 是好不好 你的青春圈城市你就給它釐清你一直在罵罵罵時務部長一直在罵江署長我是覺得問題出前面了這樣了解嗎 了解好 來 陳亮宇 來"},{"start":8903.261,"end":8919.054,"text":"你現在這兩天以後要不要冒冒 再六十張不買一張一張就嫁了是 跟委員報告目前報宅到今年到年底通報到食藥署缺藥平台總共47樣那這47項我們事實上也有做一些分析包含說有25項事實上有3"},{"start":8922.156,"end":8946.943,"text":"24項有三種同類的藥品可以替代另外21種有同類但是不完全進行可以替代剩下的一種就是我們剛剛石部長所說到的Cyclosporine的IV這個供應事實上是到115年底取代的廠商食藥署也已經找到了所以關於這一點衛福部有做剛剛的報告再複述一次這個Cyclosporine的老藥我們台灣沒有辦法自己做"},{"start":8948.744,"end":8965.174,"text":"是 來我們有特別跟國內的廠商去做協調 去爭取我們也覺得這些專利期以過的藥物在台灣落地 在地化其實是在藥物供應韌性最重要也是食藥署會再持續努力來推動你看 你們對於國內的"},{"start":8967.896,"end":8986.022,"text":"學名藥藥廠或者研批藥廠那種藥要用這麼貴的藥你給他們做一定兩個台幣等於你而已嘛你給人家合價合收價嘛不符成本嘛因為那個藥用的量不多嘛你回去以後你如果不在做什麼署部長在做署長他可能也不在處理這個啊反正就盡量有對配就好啊這樣現在不行啊現在你要盤點啊"},{"start":8993.324,"end":9009.819,"text":"跟委員報告 我們使部長在這個署長任內他那個藥品及支付標準是有公告修法那大家以前都認為說健保署每年的核價都是調降我看報章媒體也是這樣講但是在這個公告修法在4月份之後就可以調升"},{"start":9010.299,"end":9037.564,"text":"那從4月份到現在呢我們健保署統計有200多項藥品是調生的所以跟委員報告這個部分我們會來密切注意要調生就要這樣準備我大隊組了他要靠北靠北你們都在想不然你們如果在插人啊那不是這樣會來注意 會來注意沒有啦 現在這個順便美國川普在那裡亂佈一張旗袖什麼藥要進進出出 大家藥大家藥要寫旗記就寫我看部長也說不清楚"},{"start":9038.757,"end":9055.919,"text":"到底有的就去 如果沒有來日本買歐盟買也可以啊那一定要讓美國簽字所以這個都是要全盤考量我想我們部長跟署長都有高度跟學術能力啦我對你們應該是有信心啦"},{"start":9057.661,"end":9077.741,"text":"所以這要好好檢討 每天吊那麼高也知道做電梯的要來要來 你看那種陳情 也要倒一點我主持 我主持 我也是說讓人家可以付成本讓人家可以做下去不然電梯又來一次 你受得了嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":9082.779,"end":9087.3,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝蘇委員 謝謝謝謝 請紅熊委員來做詢答謝謝 謝主席我們請石安辦來 請徐主任還有請衛福部部長石部長委員好"},{"start":9106.647,"end":9121.882,"text":"是 我想請教就是說彰化算是一個農工大縣那尤其是在南彰化這邊就是種稻米蔬菜的非常的多那彰化原本的那個民道大學"},{"start":9122.643,"end":9139.534,"text":"它有一個農藥殘留質樸快檢實驗室最主要是服務整個彰化地區有15項就是彰化縣政府這邊有特別就是說有15項比較可能會有農藥殘留的這些蔬菜就是"},{"start":9143.756,"end":9158.127,"text":"免費檢查這樣子其他的部分可能就是有一些費用也會比較便宜我想請教因為我覺得這個也是一個源頭管理就是說"},{"start":9160.209,"end":9183.784,"text":"這個如果說我們可以在第一時間把這些蔬果可以透過這樣的一個這個農藥殘留的一個實驗室可以檢驗出來那你銷售到市場方面其實就可以民眾會消費者會比較安心所以我想問一下就是說除了彰化這邊有這樣的一個這個農藥殘留的一個實驗室之外那其他縣市有沒有"},{"start":9184.584,"end":9209.971,"text":"我所知道在農業部這樣的一個質樸快檢的網絡大概現在有十幾個實驗室各縣市各區域都有那我是不是也可以就是說除了跟農業部這邊之外我們應該也要一個跨部會讓農民可以更容易透過這樣的一個"},{"start":9211.591,"end":9231.58,"text":"它的蔬果透過這樣的一個實驗室的一個檢查系統對 它很容易去拿到這邊去做檢查那未來就是說像這個我們彰化這邊的這個蔬菜水果你只要有這個檢查那農業部會有一個標章你到北農的話就可以直接通關也不需要再去做額外的一個檢查"},{"start":9231.96,"end":9248.647,"text":"所以我覺得說針對這部分應該也要一個跨部會就是說應該源頭管理源頭管理讓農民他的蔬菜水果可以更容易把他的產品拿到這個地方去做一個檢驗那消費者也可以更安心"},{"start":9249.487,"end":9267.535,"text":"跟委員說我們除了剛講十幾個點之外到現在有五部的那個貨櫃車這樣子的就是活動式的在產季的時候就可以開到現場去但是我們現在大概都跟農會去合作像我們今年底就可能會去去聯絡跟"},{"start":9269.201,"end":9288.847,"text":"跟屏東的就在產地的時候開一輛開兩輛去那這五輛車現在有一些的是請法人有一些請學校像嘉義大學台大等等的就來幫忙維運這樣子那我想委員剛剛的這一個提議我回去後就會納入開會中的討論請兩個部會共同"},{"start":9294.369,"end":9311.738,"text":"演繹這樣子其實就是說這個實驗室就是說知道說其實它是很快可能幾分鐘的時間就可以檢驗15分鐘的時間就可以檢驗出來像事前做的所以就確定這一批都安全了Safe然後我們就可以去賣"},{"start":9313.299,"end":9334.876,"text":"所以我覺得如果可以在這個前端就做這樣子的一個檢驗的話其實對農民來講也是好的因為他可以更節省時間就是說他的產品到北農是一個保證有這樣的一個標章然後也是一個保證所以我覺得你們應該也要跟農業部這邊有一個跨部會的"},{"start":9335.596,"end":9353.485,"text":"就是說讓農民可以更容易把他的產品來做一個檢驗然後得到這樣的一個標章我覺得這個應該可以來推廣推動 好不好好 那接下來我想請教就是說在今年5月份的時候彰化發生一個重大的一個食安醜聞就是說這個豬排改標"},{"start":9358.307,"end":9382.504,"text":"豬排改標那我現在要請問就是說現在網路真的非常的快速就不論是團購網購在那個網路上面你要買吃的買用的都非常的方便那今年5月份的這一個就是說可能透過網路這個廠商他透過網路可能去收購一些過期的這個豬排"},{"start":9384.045,"end":9404.834,"text":"那回來之後再自己改標可是為什麼會被發現是因為原本製造這個豬排的那個食品廠他覺得說我們這一款這個豬排已經停產了就是這一款的豬排已經停產那為什麼還在市面上在網路上面販售所以這樣子才爆發出來的那我想請教就是說未來"},{"start":9406.494,"end":9429.669,"text":"因為這個不是政府自己不是我們食藥署這邊自己發現的是原本的食品廠自己發現的那未來像這樣子的話我們要怎麼樣去杜絕因為現在很多網路團購網購真的非常方便其實你們也沒有那個人力去杜絕這一批食品到底是安不安全或者是它的保存"},{"start":9430.669,"end":9451.897,"text":"是不是有經過冷鏈冷凍或者是已經在這個常溫已經過了多久其實你們也自己沒辦法去做這樣子的一個檢驗 檢查那未來我覺得在網路上面販售的這些東西其實我覺得你們應該要去一個再去想一個方法怎麼樣讓所有的消費者"},{"start":9452.697,"end":9477.127,"text":"第一個你買到的東西是安心的因為尤其是節日的時候過年過節很多人會在網路上面買烤肉的東西這個肉品或者是海鮮那像這樣子的話如果我們自己本身在第一線第一時間就沒辦法發現或者是即使是發現那這個廠商他也會再透過人頭"},{"start":9478.007,"end":9502.297,"text":"可能又改另外一間公司又開始販售所以我覺得說你們應該要去想一下怎麼要去杜絕這樣的一個類似的狀況了解那你們要怎麼做好 我想到的就是說因為這個剛剛前幾位委員也有問到說跟網路平台特別大陸那邊進來的那我們一個是從資訊的面就是說"},{"start":9507.886,"end":9529.305,"text":"從電腦跟資訊上面怎麼去比對然後提供我們預警的資料第二個就是剛講到法規面的怎麼我們實務上面去強化做到很有效的能夠管理跟嚇阻說這一類的廠商他又要這樣做很容易被我們看到然後我們是有力去處理他的可是他如果又改一個公司名其實你"},{"start":9530.726,"end":9557.412,"text":"你也很難去抓而且它這個東西其實在銷售很快可能幾天的時間就銷完了你即使要去查要去找它的樣就是你們要去追回來其實也都很困難那另外一個有可能未來它如果是從國外直接進來然後販售出去其實兩三天的時間其實你也沒辦法查所以我覺得說針對這部分在網路上販售"},{"start":9560.155,"end":9571.813,"text":"這個海鮮 食品或者是其他那種食品類的我覺得應該要有一套的方法怎麼樣可以杜絕類似的這樣的一個狀況在發生"},{"start":9574.435,"end":9594.921,"text":"謝謝委員提出這個漏洞不過我們會持續強化這個十萬五韓每一個環節如何更精進不過呢對於這一種明知故犯這個都是明知故犯他會去改標一定是明知故犯對這種明知故犯的一旦抓到我們就是建立絕對是嚴懲讓他破產讓他"},{"start":9597.287,"end":9616.83,"text":"大家不敢再去鋌而走險了就是說你隨便就是罰我我查了過去我們5年查的這個食安事件350幾件那麼總共才開罰2500萬所以最高的一件也不過所以就不怕不怕嘛所以我們要建立的就是"},{"start":9617.99,"end":9631.136,"text":"這個食安每一件都是重大我們看起來這個人民的日常生活都會息息相關所以只要是這種蓄意的明知故犯蓄意的這種不良廠商絕對是重罰"},{"start":9632.857,"end":9649.174,"text":"未來都是採取一樣的模式來不再姑息那我希望說部長針對這部分真的網路上販售的東西其實都非常的快速那針對這部分我覺得你們應該也要有一些因應的方式因為"},{"start":9650.075,"end":9671.791,"text":"這東西要出去一兩天就賣完了就吃到肚子餓了你要炒 其實也很難炒對 所以應該有因應目前的這個狀況要有更精進的方式來杜絕好不好好 我們來研究謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請黃正旭委員委員會這邊公告"},{"start":9679.236,"end":9708.138,"text":"盧縣議委員 選打局勢之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟食藥署江署長請副長來 江署長重新公佈 王委員好謝謝 重新公佈 王委員選打局勢之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝被逼的所以這第一名要招委對不對"},{"start":9712.523,"end":9735.207,"text":"部長 署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先"},{"start":9738.047,"end":9760.783,"text":"再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分"},{"start":9761.764,"end":9776.165,"text":"這個監管的部分看起來是用資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程它的人數上又以至少要5人為主當初在考量這些時程"},{"start":9776.926,"end":9794.667,"text":"規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下"},{"start":9796.128,"end":9812.056,"text":"原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠"},{"start":9812.896,"end":9828.975,"text":"提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法"},{"start":9829.426,"end":9850.706,"text":"對 所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範"},{"start":9851.947,"end":9875.64,"text":"它的設立時間其實蠻早的 12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路"},{"start":9876.66,"end":9894.036,"text":"可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的製造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸"},{"start":9897.96,"end":9916.259,"text":"這一些相關的這個毒珠廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式"},{"start":9916.559,"end":9940.111,"text":"報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告"},{"start":9940.771,"end":9968.758,"text":"各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易"},{"start":9969.898,"end":9996.086,"text":"但是它可能影響後面它發展之後它可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為它的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把它要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計畫所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整"},{"start":9997.246,"end":10012.257,"text":"再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用"},{"start":10012.857,"end":10031.137,"text":"剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上好 這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理"},{"start":10031.818,"end":10056.886,"text":"那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠它用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這一家工廠它會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道它是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把它故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些"},{"start":10057.646,"end":10075.015,"text":"好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度"},{"start":10075.775,"end":10091.491,"text":"意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式"},{"start":10092.091,"end":10114.889,"text":"就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查"},{"start":10115.749,"end":10131.676,"text":"第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示"},{"start":10132.637,"end":10144.287,"text":"另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓它這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何"},{"start":10148.039,"end":10175.859,"text":"這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學員的選定化學物質"},{"start":10176.826,"end":10202.962,"text":"那選定的一些原則裡面我們其實有一部分是食品業者可疑廠商的篩選所以剛才委員特別提到了對於特定的廠商他特定的需求在不同的等級的一些化學物質的採購跟流向的部分我覺得的確是我們是可以進一步去做過去我們針對這部分其實就已經有盯住了62項的化學物質過去在食品安全上面有疑慮的"},{"start":10203.542,"end":10230.337,"text":"那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力好 那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是"},{"start":10231.337,"end":10254.898,"text":"我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品"},{"start":10255.498,"end":10269.894,"text":"那这一种呢就是另外一种管理方式那这个要避免的我们去盘点一下我们可供告可使用的化学添加物里面哪一些是同时有工业等级这个就是另外一种"},{"start":10270.855,"end":10295.382,"text":"這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開了好這部分我等一下會請教徐主任再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度是徐主任稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這個這次受傷最嚴重就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這一位負責人"},{"start":10295.962,"end":10324.418,"text":"那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個零下夜市它用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候它很快的也做了一些公佈重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QR Code的食材來源檢驗機制"},{"start":10325.619,"end":10349.219,"text":"強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障"},{"start":10349.739,"end":10369.978,"text":"所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要"},{"start":10370.899,"end":10396.616,"text":"因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學附租食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界"},{"start":10398.507,"end":10427.064,"text":"食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是Science in Action就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障那科學本身是一個很具有"},{"start":10427.944,"end":10443.519,"text":"能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分"},{"start":10444.239,"end":10466.065,"text":"我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善對其實這一些的資料都是各部會給"},{"start":10467.948,"end":10478.003,"text":"環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會"},{"start":10483.51,"end":10503.018,"text":"去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的"},{"start":10504.74,"end":10518.26,"text":"欄位裡面怎麼可以是空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好 謝謝"},{"start":10519.71,"end":10545.558,"text":"所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用Science in Action就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好"},{"start":10546.558,"end":10574.438,"text":"當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論的就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證"},{"start":10575.419,"end":10599.426,"text":"最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好 大家來一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝王爺 謝謝部長 主任 請回我們接下來 現在來處理臨時提案 既有一案請宣讀"},{"start":10601.27,"end":10616.817,"text":"針對檢調破獲百威公司違法使用工業雙氧水並封存大量問題產品但兩地衛生局後續在市面抽驗針對過氧化氫篩檢的結果卻全數合格表示問題大廠已在市面消化完畢"},{"start":10617.597,"end":10618.698,"text":"請問本案行政單位有意見來那邊有麥克風"},{"start":10646.584,"end":10661.259,"text":"這邊 召委以及市委員這邊正為臨時提案 食藥署這邊提出是否可以針對第二段原提案要求衛福部儘速查明流向於一個月內向衛福委員會提交"},{"start":10662.24,"end":10688.721,"text":"專案報告可不可以改成書面報告因為今天專案的部分我們進一步說明所以改成書面報告序名流向並檢討相關通報及查核作業程序逗號防堵食安疑慮事件再度發生句號是不是可以按照這樣子作為一些修改好 請提案委員"},{"start":10691.314,"end":10704.509,"text":"那個第一段後面那邊表示問題大廠已在市內消化完畢吃了之後還是並沒有完全我們其實有封存的有2萬噸12604噸那我們其中還有145這個應該"},{"start":10714.714,"end":10738.843,"text":"他說現場把它封存起來的是12,004公斤啦12,604公斤 這個是沒有流出去的這個是封存起來的那另外已經賣出去 但是呢還在廠商那裡的下游廠商那邊的 我們趕快下架的那個也是2000"},{"start":10747.386,"end":10756.59,"text":"2430公斤真正已經賣到消費者那邊的是784公斤大概目前的流向是完全掌握清楚是這樣"},{"start":10758.294,"end":10787.463,"text":"那另外不是這一家廠商出去的我們還有擴大四面四面的抽驗那目前驗起來也都沒有殘留的那個H202就是那個雙氧水這樣那就照他們修改的同意好 體驗委員真的接受你們也建議的修改文字那我們這個臨時單據照這樣文字修正後通過好 謝謝"},{"start":10793.104,"end":10809.315,"text":"好 臨時提案全部處理完畢那接下來我們請盧縣立委員來做這個詢答主席有請部長來 有請部長"},{"start":10815.412,"end":10826.719,"text":"前面的委員都講很多了不過還是想就針對這個工業用酸氧水這個問題來問幾個問題這次我們在地方我們的衛生局的角色是在哪裡"},{"start":10828.257,"end":10847.227,"text":"衛生局我們當然這個現場的稽查還是會由這個衛生局所以還是稽查嘛對對對那像什麼比較重大的實案事件我相信它都會有一些危險性在那其實我們在地方服務的時候稽查員他其實常常抱怨就是他們工作時間太長"},{"start":10848.348,"end":10875.809,"text":"然後如果比較像這種比較重大他們希望旁邊會有人幫忙比如說可能會有人身安全的問題在這個時候有達到這些他們的基本訴求嗎大概有兩個考慮像這個案件如果涉及到刑事處刑法的部分的話我們就會也通報檢調來共同處理那如果是一般的稽查如果認為有一些這個風險性我是希望"},{"start":10876.87,"end":10897.045,"text":"部长能够重视他们的安全还有他们过劳的问题我们从去年看到这个死亡数大概有十个人我想知道说就针对我们去年我们原住民小米这种事件家属有些人会跟我反映说有没有国家赔偿机制因为他们的家人莫名其妙的就不见了"},{"start":10897.901,"end":10918.011,"text":"有沒有國家 台東那一個那個那個是他是這邊稍微提一下因為後來確定裡面小米種是是農藥所以農藥這部分其實在查查到底什麼原因原因是怎麼樣子摻進去其實目前是在那我說這部分沒有國家賠償機制嗎"},{"start":10920.632,"end":10935.905,"text":"我想這部分跟要確定因為要符合這個這個國賠啊那國家賠償的話是要這個過程當中有公務人員他的這個執行上的問題造成的沒有這方面的一個"},{"start":10937.526,"end":10954.348,"text":"好 這個工業用的酸氧水我覺得剛才完整協議委員有提到說異常採購的問題大家都會知道說為什麼會沒有人會想到說會用工業用的酸氧水這個異常採購的部分你們有到現在為止有一個改善的措施嗎"},{"start":10956.617,"end":10984.823,"text":"就是如何避免讓這個工業用的雙氧水流入到我們的食品鏈當中所以我剛剛有特別提到對 就是說要去把這個雙因為過去我們沒有把它列入在我們跟這個化學雲的勾基的一個項目裡面我們會把它研議看看是不是要那我剛剛看了就是你們的報告就是大概針對2014年的我們的經費關於食品安全的話我看到了109億"},{"start":10986.523,"end":11005.051,"text":"關於衛福部的話是29億特別預算的話這邊有10億我的意思是說這麼多的錢用在食品安全這邊我們的問題還是一直在層出不窮你覺得這個錢是有用對地方嗎還是你覺得有沒有地方要改進的我們當然這個一方面"},{"start":11007.373,"end":11018.673,"text":"補充能力還是需要因為剛剛很多委員都提到這個現場的集合也需要耗費人力所以人力的補充還是有它的必要性目前的人力大概規劃到599位"},{"start":11021.323,"end":11036.433,"text":"因為你現在是167加463然後再規劃24再加45剛剛算是599因為它分成中央跟地方那以地方來講是增進對就是現行是463另外再補充45是508"},{"start":11040.235,"end":11062.396,"text":"我要凸显的问题就是说其实美国的那个我刚刚有去查就是美国的关于食品的机场大概有6500人他们的人口是3亿4千也就是说刚好是差不多我们的10倍那我们的人力也差不多是那个样子其实我发现这次的问题其实不太是人力的问题而是我们刚刚早上那个林士芬讲的那个行政救济跟制度改善的问题"},{"start":11063.336,"end":11091.035,"text":"可以去真正的把這些想要有點從中獲利或者是不法的這些不具良心的這些業者來揪出來所以應該是從這個方向來前進可以嗎 部長可以 我們會去強化我們內部的通報還有行政的稽查的執行這樣我還是再次強調我們稽查員的人身安危下一個就是我上個月有去我們"},{"start":11094.076,"end":11117.201,"text":"徐超兵醫師的桑里就是我有去看他其實他的就南回醫院這個部分你目前的想法是什麼目前在南回我們已經有跟台東縣政府合作已經把本來的南回衛生所把它變成南回衛生所暨緊急"},{"start":11118.641,"end":11142.376,"text":"医疗中心把它扩大像有略具这个医院规模不是小小有了因为我常常经过那我要主要说现在他们有凸显一个问题给我就说他们其实在轮指的时候来值班的其实都不具专科急诊专科医师所以希望说真正去指那个南回急诊医疗照顾中心这个位置的医生希望是急诊专科医师"},{"start":11142.896,"end":11160.615,"text":"我們要不惜重金因為那邊是唯一可以治療的地方它距離台東市跟訪寮都有一個小時以上的車程可以嗎它目前主要是由包含台東馬街還有高一還有幾個"},{"start":11166.541,"end":11192.703,"text":"來協助那個人力的資源24小時的急診他們是希望都是急診專科醫師的話我們再來了解一下目前是有24小時我上個月有去納瑪夏就是針對我們納瑪夏衛生所他本來在山上就是距離他們現在部落生活的地方非常遠所以我們有在做前置作業那高雄市衛生局也陪同我們去做初步的一個概算是2000萬元"},{"start":11193.884,"end":11221.156,"text":"不过它有一个前提是说希望它河边的整治能够做好我在9月底大概9月25号也去配合我们水保署的一个1900万的一个防治八旗工程的计划也准备核定了已经核定了准备来测试所以我希望说他们水保署这边已经有努力这个1900万我希望卫福部能够宽列这个2000万在明年或者是近几年把他们搬迁卫生所这个心愿能够完成可以吗"},{"start":11222.145,"end":11247.419,"text":"好我們來努力來協助好最後一個就是無人機的問題這次在我們太八朗這邊有三分鐘就把藥品送到這個災區的這個一個經驗讓人家覺得說為之經驗就是說這麼好可是我們在盤點的時候會發現我們原住民地區其實就是5G沒有升級然後地方的通訊都不好其實光有無人機也不行一定要把這些"},{"start":11248.419,"end":11263.3,"text":"通訊設備弄好那我大概有看到就是說這邊有寫到專次長說有些三大方面來推動那可以做簡單的解釋嗎是這樣 我們有編列了往後明年開始有一個三年的AI的計畫"},{"start":11265.002,"end":11283.17,"text":"這個無人機就包含在這裡面那這個無人機就是從三個方面第一個是說那個缺口打算要可以適用這個無人機的點在哪裡包含它的起降點等等還有航線的規劃所以這個要把它盤點出來第二個是法規的部分也要去做"},{"start":11284.43,"end":11310.015,"text":"讓它可以更常態性的去運用第三個就是那個協調中心因為它有跨部會需要合作的地方那我希望部長能夠請我們衛福部我們園民會跟消防署做一些調配看看哪裡需要就哪裡來強化然後剛才說的它的通訊一定要正常才可以行使對 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝盧卿盈委員的發言謝謝部長的說明"},{"start":11311.536,"end":11335.047,"text":"下一位 請宗嘉斌委員發言主席 戰狼委員 先進列席陣容江蘇黨官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們石部長跟徐主任請石部長 徐主任"},{"start":11338.262,"end":11344.046,"text":"部長好 主任好剛剛聽說之前的質詢部長有爆料說你也喜歡吃糯米茶"},{"start":11344.98,"end":11368.139,"text":"不是 大燈啊 大燈米線不是那個灌腸的 不是不是那你現在還敢吃嗎 有還有繼續吃 昨天才吃你知道我們屏東很多地方呢都在賣那個糯米腸啊他以前賣說大腸包小腸結果呢最近因為大家沒有人去買他就掛個牌子人生無腸啊 久路愁腸啊大家沒來買啊為什麼 部長"},{"start":11372.56,"end":11393.995,"text":"因為網傳黑心豬腸流向全台黑心的不是豬的腸黑心的是什麼是人的心是哪裡問題是不是用工業用的那個什麼用工業用的雙氧水對不對但是我們看了一下這裡面居然跑出什麼病死豬病變豬大腸病死豬病變的豬大腸請問"},{"start":11399.153,"end":11425.827,"text":"豬有問題嗎豬沒有問題豬跟豬跟豬什麼關係啊是人的問題嘛那些豬都是農民辛苦飼養避死豬或病死豬早就農委會農業部要求怎樣要做對要做去化嘛對不對給他一個銷毀嘛對所以說理論上沒有那種私底下的東西去做完了嘛沒有嘛沒有沒有這個問題嘛那為什麼媒體會這樣寫"},{"start":11428.215,"end":11447.054,"text":"這樣寫誰敢吃豬肉製品啊還好你知道你說那個蚵仔麵線大腸麵線你都敢吃對不對好來我們往下看所以問題是食藥署的說明在10月4號涉嫌使用工業級的雙陽水加工內臟非來自病死豬為可食用的內臟請問媒體有寫嗎"},{"start":11451.263,"end":11473.296,"text":"媒體有這樣講嗎 我們會強化不斷的說明不斷的說明 這個我們覺得非常的委屈我們看過去有沒有例子 來往下看食安事件烏龍資訊 不管是無心或有意受害的都是農民過去發生什麼事情 我舉例給你看巴西綠色彈 有沒有這回事"},{"start":11474.335,"end":11497.857,"text":"那個徐主任之前你因應過嘛那時候還沒當部長那個是我們還不是當時部長有沒有遇到過是不是真的那個是假新聞假訊息嘛對不對還有呢以前說中秋節發生文旦倒水庫在2019年有沒有結果呢誰受傷農民農民啊 大家說 喔 文旦這麼瘦可以倒水庫你怎麼沒辦法這麼貴"},{"start":11500.623,"end":11524.366,"text":"對不對 有問題也是遭殃農民說很多過剩 價格崩盤也是農民還有什麼綠牡蠣 有這個事情沒有那為什麼這種事情 層出不窮我們尊重媒體的新聞報導的專業但是這不是專業的報導啊 怎麼辦 保定怎麼辦 往下看怎麼辦我們是只有譴責造成恐慌的烏龍新聞只有這樣而已嗎 只能這樣子嗎"},{"start":11525.7,"end":11548.878,"text":"有沒有別的做法來啦給你報一項氣象法有個18條我不知道這樣定你看氣象法說機關學校團體或個人未經中央氣象局現在叫氣象署他不得去發布什麼警報災害豪雨颱風甚至地震發布的時候要註明什麼發布者的名稱權嫌他的預報呢應該註明是來自於中央氣象局的"},{"start":11550.219,"end":11570.405,"text":"部長有沒有參考價值有可以考慮嗎來聽聽看那你覺得我這樣提的時候你可能怎麼做我覺得委員這個建議很好那麼因為這個食安是全民都關切啦所以往往如果這個訊息如果不對的話反而造成恐慌社會的不安定同時也傷害農民"},{"start":11570.825,"end":11586.574,"text":"是的 所以是不是外務部可以承諾我們來制定一個食安相關的新聞發布的指引或者是規範或者是流程那行政院來協助可以嗎這個我們過去跟委員報告過去我們在自殺防治就做過這樣很好 那成效如何"},{"start":11587.334,"end":11612.119,"text":"后来新闻媒体现在报导有自杀事件的时候都会遵守那个指引的规范不会去过度渲染报导细节等等这些那我们也来研议那么对于这个按照这个食安法46条之一来设定这个来制定这个发布这个指引规范那我最后您再多一个"},{"start":11612.819,"end":11638.641,"text":"建立食安相關新聞的查證機制跟平台什麼意思 你要讓媒體方便嘛 媒體搶時間啊你要讓他很快的跟你們確認說這裡面說的會不會真的媒體他可以去問到正確的 這第一個第二個 閱聽大眾如果看到這個怪怪的他馬上怎樣 不是檢舉啦 是給你們提供嘛這個市面上也要流通這樣的新聞喔是不是真的 好像給你們查證一下這個機制跟平台"},{"start":11639.702,"end":11656.428,"text":"衛福部來演繹好不好查證中心啦好不好公新聞媒體的業者跟一般的消費大眾好不好好那希望你能繼續吃大腸包小腸不要跟我們那個人生無常苦酒入愁腸謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝總嘉賓委員的發言謝謝部長回應下一位請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":11672.402,"end":11700.686,"text":"謝主席 陽泉發言請時部長好 有請時部長歡迎水先喝再上來好 楊委員好部長好中秋前後是肉品銷售最重要的尤其烤肉大家香腸這些腸子通通都要那在這樣的情況之下我們的食安五環似乎都慢半拍而且都是民眾檢舉揭露的"},{"start":11701.246,"end":11716.934,"text":"那當然我們在查緝的時候已經流入到市場而且不知道該怎麼辦就從這一次的這個黑心腸現在去檢驗都合格那那些不合格的跑到哪裡去呢這才是重點 已經吃下肚"},{"start":11717.594,"end":11744.006,"text":"民眾的食安嚴重受損這該怎麼辦所以本席要請教我們要怎麼樣檢討經濟方案如果你只有是讓民眾來檢舉你們才知道為什麼不從源頭去好好的管控制呢你們的積極作為到底是什麼尤其人力方面你明知道你的人力是有缺口的那你要怎麼去"},{"start":11745.006,"end":11766.124,"text":"去把它應對之譬如說你用AI的方式譬如說你可以用液化的一個物流流程這些查核流程液化這個對我們來講都是幫助很大而且解決你人力的缺口我們做了嗎請教部長這一方面你的作為是什麼"},{"start":11766.824,"end":11791.36,"text":"跟委員報告確實委員提到透過E化可以去強化整個食物鏈這個產品食品的這個產製銷鏈的這個追蹤當然那現在該怎麼辦呢那現在從電子發票電子登錄我們都持續在推動目前大概完成率大概九成到九成五那最後一哩度我們把它補起來讓像這樣的這個工業的化學"},{"start":11794.802,"end":11823.681,"text":"就是我们在这个卫生局这边会持续针对还没有完成电子发票的开立跟这个电子登录的食品业者加强去辅导让他完成从源头对这个从源头从源头你认可吗那同时依化AI技术去补足人力的缺口还有最重要的不要等到民众来揭露你们才知道那些已经流到肚子里头"},{"start":11824.582,"end":11824.606,"text":"是"},{"start":11825.558,"end":11854.469,"text":"要怎么办所以这个务必要把这最后一里路去补足是 这个我们努力把这个整个系统让它完成你们预估多久 还能不久难免还是有这些漏网之鱼那我们还是会加强这个市场后市场的这些稽查还是需要加强稽查好 一起加油那请教最近我们看到原厂药品宣布退出台湾市场"},{"start":11855.871,"end":11879.896,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下甚至這個市佔率高的三高的藥品這是民眾非常需要的那比如說化痰藥 氣喘藥這些三高的藥品慢性病那為什麼到九月份竟然我們統計預期是有47家的藥品退出"},{"start":11880.876,"end":11903.526,"text":"部長 這是什麼情況為什麼會如此 什麼原因那我們要怎麼樣去應對呢跟委員報告現在健保所供應的藥品大概是一萬四千多項每年大概都有五六十項會因為他的廠商來提報我們都是鼓勵他提報說如果你不再供應 你要事先講"},{"start":11904.806,"end":11925.994,"text":"那让我们可以那以往没有像现在这么多家差不多前年的话是60几项那你现在就已经有47项了47项没有错但是这47项我们盘起来都有学名药它不是专利期内的药全部都是有学名药你有替代你的意思是说你有替代对"},{"start":11926.414,"end":11943.488,"text":"第一個到底是什麼原因人家要退出跟委員報告就是說這些像這裡面有24個是屬於叫做原廠藥原廠藥過了專利期之後就有很多的學民要跟它競爭所以它的價格一定下降全世界都是這樣這個時候這個廠商這個原廠就會考慮"},{"start":11947.031,"end":11971.162,"text":"改變他的這個策略就再回去專注他的專利藥這是藥商的一個策略但是我方我們的替代藥是不是足以讓我們的三高等這些需要用者的患者能夠安心這是一個重點接下來本席請教最近有提出了一個叫健康幣"},{"start":11972.943,"end":11988.059,"text":"就是打疫苗啊接受公費啊這個癌症篩選啊那我們到底我們說如果打疫苗你可以獲得100點的健康幣那乳房篩檢可以獲得200點那這個政策現在進度如何"},{"start":11988.419,"end":12009.533,"text":"我們現在正在內部在規劃那最重要就是有三個重點一個這個是幣的發行他可能要採納這個區塊鏈的概念那第二個是哪些要納入鼓勵的措施就是希望讓民眾他去為了自己的健康所做的努力也能夠有一些"},{"start":12010.273,"end":12037.95,"text":"回饋來鼓勵他第三個就是要公司協力要希望有更多的業者民間的業者可以參與這個幣的退換所以大概有這三個環節你們接下來進度預計什麼時候可以去執行之那因為你包括要跟廠商民間的合作那你預計什麼時候可以上路呢希望明年的第一季來跟大家報告這個整個明年的第一季來報告因為這個非常的重要"},{"start":12038.61,"end":12062.081,"text":"也就是预防中医治疗如果大家有这样子的一个概念我们完整建构让大家可以更加的健康但明年的第一季可以跟国人来报告健康币的进度是不是是是是谢谢委员好谢谢杨强英委员发言谢谢部长的说明下一位请陈寅委员发言"},{"start":12072.196,"end":12080.808,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們先請衛福部長先休息一下然後那個食藥署署長請食藥署 江署長委員好"},{"start":12086.764,"end":12106.894,"text":"署長好 最近在屏東有查獲一件豬腸它使用工業用雙氧水漂白的食安事件我首先要請教署長 在這件事情之後這件事情之所以被發現是請教你們是由民眾檢舉還是說由你們南區主動稽查發現的這個是民眾檢舉在6月份的時候"},{"start":12110.455,"end":12136.708,"text":"好 謝謝署長您是醫學背景的專家應該要很清楚就是說這個實案的問題就是說我們越早發現就可以越早阻斷阻斷民眾去使用就可以避免後續很多疾病的發生醫生也就不用耗費心力去治療也可以避免耗費很多的健保資源所以署長的職責是相當重要的"},{"start":12138.109,"end":12153.308,"text":"這次的事件本市有注意到你們在不到一周的時間就調查就查了查清楚這個問題豬場的流布那回收下架了未使用的豬場同時也給予這些不肖業者"},{"start":12155.37,"end":12183.05,"text":"相当重的这个重罚那本席基本上要肯定食药署这一次的这个危机处理的能力但是呢还是有部分的这个问题猪肠被民众使用了所以我想这件事我们还是有可以有检讨的空间我另外要请教就是说这批违法猪肠到底还有就是有多少是被民众吃下肚的"},{"start":12184.425,"end":12201.213,"text":"後來我們精算包括我們在風存的部分目前是1,204公斤這是風存到最末梢的所謂的肉店裡面購買我們在現場查扣其實145公斤"},{"start":12202.794,"end":12221.72,"text":"整體我們加起來真的在這個過程中讓國人因為這樣子進入市場而食用有784公斤那這個部分我們在部長特別指示之下我們對於整個流程我們也做很多行政上目前持續在檢討當中所以就是你們的精算是784"},{"start":12224.701,"end":12236.808,"text":"784公斤流入市面被民眾吃下肚是的好那在這批百威在這批之前就是他們還進了多少豬大腸你們有調查嗎"},{"start":12238.756,"end":12254.299,"text":"這邊跟委員進一步說明因為這家廠商它完全連登記都沒有登記所以是第一個所以它被罰了300萬的未登記那也沒有GHP所以在這種前提之下我們的確不是能夠確確的掌握之前的一個完全的狀況"},{"start":12255.24,"end":12274.594,"text":"但是我們一起動了解他從6月18號我們看到他的所謂進出的貨單裡面把所有的把它調出來之後得到的剛才的一項說明的簡單的數字在這個之前我是說在這一批之前你們是調不到數據沒有辦法掌握"},{"start":12276.533,"end":12296.192,"text":"那這部分跟委員報告檢方在部分已經有查扣相關的資訊那我們也有去跟檢方去協調能不能取得更前部分的一些資料我想這個部分是很重要的所以你們有主動跟檢方去要他之前的這個進口的這個數量"},{"start":12299.054,"end":12316.408,"text":"對 目前我們都有提出了好 這樣子表示你們有意識到這個問題所以後續也麻煩食藥署持續的追蹤把百威之前所進的豬大腸數量麻煩你們還是要估算一下"},{"start":12317.348,"end":12335.121,"text":"因為畢竟我想這個已經有不良前科那過去他們這一家在應該基本上都是用同樣的方式用雙氧水工業用雙氧水去洗這個豬大腸的這個量你們後續在有掌握到資訊的時候再麻煩跟我們辦公室說一下"},{"start":12338.583,"end":12360.011,"text":"基本上本土新鮮的豬腸應該是不需要再使用雙氧水去漂白因為新鮮的豬腸基本上它就白得還滿漂亮的事件過後高雄市政府調查630家及屏東縣政府調查了84家業者總共700多家全數都合格"},{"start":12360.731,"end":12380.106,"text":"那有需要用雙氧水清洗邁向差的應該是國外進口來的這個部分是需要經過關務署來放行那請教一下署長就是食藥署對於國外進口的食材有沒有掌握進口的品項數量跟進口商的資料"},{"start":12381.307,"end":12409.847,"text":"這部分跟委員進一步說明因為關務署進來我們在邊境的時候事實上我們用所謂的邊境的BPI protection保護的人工智慧的系統裡面所以關務署的資料跟我們這邊進來的資料在邊境裡面是非常清楚的所有的相關的數字對 因為主要是我這樣問主要還是關心就是說如果說你們這些都可以掌握的話那應該就是可以掌握百威之前他們所有進口的數量"},{"start":12410.973,"end":12434.151,"text":"就是说这一次的案件里面就我们了解是在所谓屠宰场旁边那个货柜屋里面其实是相对直接是在场内的我们目前的资讯掌握好像并没有是场外的或者进口进来的出厂在这边做进一步的加工我想这个问题你们有必要有必要可以再去了解一下是的 一定会的"},{"start":12434.631,"end":12454.284,"text":"那我再請教就是說你們各區北中南管理中心對於這個轄區的食品業者有沒有登記列管這個都是有在基建登記的列管這家是非常特殊的它連登記都沒有登記好 重點是就是說那有登記列管的這些然後登記之後你們是如何管理怎麼管 有列管 你們怎麼管"},{"start":12461.857,"end":12485.026,"text":"我們其實每一家廠商它必須要符合第一個GHP的管理那對於食品的廠不同的廠的一個規模大小它必須要做成品 半成品進來之後完全它的批次所謂的電子發票跟電子登錄目前剛才部長也有進一步說明都達到九成以上"},{"start":12485.726,"end":12510.374,"text":"那如果沒有去做登錄的我們其實按照食安法的違法在48條的時候可以罰3萬到300萬的一個經費目前我們持續會讓它的登錄能夠更完整電子發票的勾結能夠更明顯的完成好 那個經濟部登記的公司行號如果是做這個食品加工進口業 進口的業者你們食藥署有 就是"},{"start":12511.608,"end":12517.44,"text":"有沒有建立資料庫去了解相關的營運、銷貨跟環境管理"},{"start":12519.232,"end":12548.307,"text":"有嗎 是的 有的我們登錄的時候因為這家廠商 營運銷貨營運銷貨跟環境管理因為廠商他們會預登記所以它預登記的跟我們的廠商之間會有差異所以我們70幾萬家的食品廠裡面我們今年度查起來有4萬2千家其實是中間是有差異的所以我們目前直接就折成衛生局針對這4萬2千家進一步去查查它的所謂的登記項目跟所謂的營業項目的部分能夠達到一致"},{"start":12548.507,"end":12569.735,"text":"我想是這樣因為本席想要建議一下就是說在過去你們可以拿出去處理醬油業者的那種精神跟魄力去處理這些就是豬大腸的這個事件應該就可以立刻被解決因為這個是發生在署長來之前你們可以好好去了解一下"},{"start":12570.515,"end":12599.15,"text":"好的 谢谢委员用对地方那再从这一次的这个事件虽然你们有就是说立即的处理能力算是不错但是如果说你们可以在第一时间就掌握了这个就掌握就可以避免这个问题猪肠流出被使用这部分是需要靠平时的这个基本控那举例而言就是说进口的猪肠长途运送的这个过程当中容易变色产生腥味"},{"start":12600.21,"end":12620.024,"text":"部分的中盤商還有這個或者食品加工業者他們為了賣相好那本來就很容易去漂白嘛廠商他可以選擇合法的這個食品級的雙氧水那他也有可能使用的這個違法的工業級的雙氧水所以"},{"start":12620.864,"end":12640.238,"text":"需要不定期的不斷的去稽查那對於這個合法的這個廠商該有的稽查頻率需要你們考量就是有限的人力跟物力所以我相信就是說相較於這個藥品的管理這個食品的管理其實它是更加複雜的"},{"start":12642.639,"end":12652.948,"text":"目前想再請教署長就是說你們有沒有針對進口食材有稽查頻率的數據或者是說有稽查百分比的數據"},{"start":12655.069,"end":12672.689,"text":"我們對於進口的產品其實在邊境裡面就會進入攔截所以這個攔截我們常態的是在5到10%如果對於它過去的違規的違法行為裡面一旦被查查之後我們之前剛才提到BPI會隨著它的"},{"start":12673.79,"end":12695.412,"text":"過去的歷史而調高它的風險最高是調到每一張逐批的茶茶5%到10%10%到50%甚至進一步到百分之百因為每一次的這個食安的事件很多啦就是我的理解我們看到常常就是說最多"},{"start":12696.113,"end":12724.361,"text":"就是說主要都有民眾檢舉或者競爭對手的檢舉最多常遇到這樣子再來就是說等媒體爆料或者明帶質詢這個也不少再來就是你們的主動調查大概不出這三大類我們其實也會瞭解說這三類的比例大概是多少署長有沒有瞭解"},{"start":12726.064,"end":12752.55,"text":"其實在我們邊境以及我們的資訊系統面攔查了還是佔了一定的比例因為這樣子的其實都不會特別被揭露出來但不可否認就是大部分的比例是民眾檢舉或者是競爭對手的檢舉這個幾乎是佔相當大的比例吧這個的確是有一定的比例那我想是說重點是不管是怎麼樣就是說在就是說"},{"start":12753.59,"end":12780.083,"text":"你們後續那個放行之後進來之後 那放行之後有沒有查驗或者是出事了之後再去做這個亡羊補牢的時候調查我們其實在前端的攔截以外後市場的稽查每一年我們都有特定的專案性的稽查是常態性的因為現在是有這個除了對於合法廠商不定期稽查那非法的地下廠商你們其實根本是"},{"start":12781.79,"end":12810.685,"text":"也很難說積極的去主動調查就這個部分跟委員報告一下我們針對的所謂的登記跟實際上營業的部分我們在跨部會我們會積極的更把現在遇到的一些需要更能夠勾結更完整的所以剛才提到的比如說營業相次跟一些登記的相次跟實際上營業上面沒辦法吻合的4.2萬家我們就會交衛生局積極的去查查"},{"start":12811.265,"end":12826.516,"text":"就是市要署的人力物力是有限就是說當然我們盡量去滿足這個人力上的需求還有這個經費上的需求但是我們的責任是要把這些經費跟人力全部把它規劃好"},{"start":12827.837,"end":12854.692,"text":"那我们国内很多专业的团体跟非政府组织那一起也可以一起来为国家的食品食安来把关所以很多的公权力我们也可以委托来使用那特别是样品的取得化验都可以跟外界来做结合那这样还有进口食材这个流布厂商的必要管理我们很重要我现在要讲的就是说建立电子化的这个资料库我想是要做这个呃"},{"start":12856.133,"end":12885.453,"text":"很重要的建议好这个这个资料库的建议建立是对我们未来的食安管理是很重要的所以这个部分希望你们能够多加油是的谢谢谢谢委员谢谢谢谢陈寅委员的发言谢谢署长的回答下一位请邱志伟委员发言这个能够聆听到这个陈寅委员实施班非常精彩的咨询"},{"start":12889.653,"end":12913.781,"text":"來 謝謝主席 有請委員部時務長時要署姜署長 姜署長邱委員好因為我樓上等一下就是下一個也是我我把握時間 大概一個主題我想那個姜署長也知道我要談什麼這個所有的這個郵件頻道主流郵件頻道 電子台或者新聞台它的時段有很多都在放這個"},{"start":12915.812,"end":12941.601,"text":"不管是食品或者藥品的廣告譬如說它有助於睡眠它一分鐘睡眠就睡著了十秒鐘就睡著了大家看了會心動現在有睡眠問題的人不少大家聽到會不會心動因為這個是在主流的電子媒體主流新聞台而且是播放時間兩三分鐘有很多專家 又好像不是專家"},{"start":12942.951,"end":12970.318,"text":"來做背書 來做見證消費者會受到影響 會連我都心動了我不知道你有沒有睡眠問題 我有一點因為我每天都要從高雄坐第一班高鐵來睡得少 又睡得不好但是這個如果真的有搖曉要經過你們主管機關認證這個有關於這個退黑技術它是一個處方藥品嘛不能在一般市面上販售它不是保健食品"},{"start":12971.656,"end":12987.206,"text":"所以他用一個很模糊的一個陳述來宣達他的療效那我覺得幾乎這個每一家電視台都大頻率高頻率 高密度的在播出"},{"start":12987.881,"end":13011.587,"text":"每天都有 你去看一下他賺很多錢嗎 應該賺很多錢電視台有沒有廣告收益 有消費者有沒有因此而受惠而得到改善他們睡眠的這個目標有沒有 不知道所以你們不能讓這個宣稱有療效的保健食品來再公開的頻道去做宣傳"},{"start":13013.323,"end":13038.93,"text":"這個你要基於保護消費者用藥或者這個食品衛生的安全不能沒有作為啊部長 署長不能沒有基於作為啊過去你們還查兩件這每天每一台電視台你去看最起碼都五六個時段而且一播都播三四分鐘他是洗腦式的連他台詞我都背的起來為什麼不怕"},{"start":13040.546,"end":13058.871,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個食品跟藥品的廣告有它的不同的規範跟限制特別是食品是不能夠宣稱療效的只有藥品才有療效那一分鐘可以睡著或者十秒鐘可以睡著這有沒有療效這個算療效所以我們會來處理這件事情"},{"start":13060.109,"end":13077.848,"text":"8號委員 上次跟委員進一步報告之後我們其實立刻去因為是藥品 melatonin 推移激素所以直接遮蔽下架採訪所以我們有積極的作為有聯合NCC不能讓這種廣告在主流電視台媒體去播出"},{"start":13080.586,"end":13104.139,"text":"對 針對節目廣告化跟廣告節目化我們希望的是電商業者平台這平台必須課以平台的義務跟責任必須要對這個廣告做進一步所以我們也研議在食安法裡面的修法不只睡眠 還有其他療效 比如說鈣比如說你的免疫技能會增加還有擠出很多數據這些數據都是醫學上的數據"},{"start":13108.427,"end":13114.573,"text":"他標示的是食品他明明有療效但是你硬要說食品那你就不得不管了"},{"start":13115.424,"end":13138.884,"text":"跟委員這邊進一步說明了我們針對食品裡面現在的所謂保健食品法的保健食品以外有些功效性的成分底下的食品我們進一步研議納管變成是所謂的功能性食品的你們要有一個監看小組去看有哪些藥品有哪些保健食品已經違反你們相關規定你們該罰就要罰而且要連續處罰"},{"start":13140.786,"end":13161.654,"text":"你要保障國人的用藥安全或者使用健康食品的降低風險謝謝委員 我們針對這部分包含它的頻率 秒數 重複的次數其實有非常非常沒有上限性的一個懲罰的規定我覺得今天質詢過之後希望說食藥署跟衛福部能夠拿起這機器作為能夠讓這些現象能夠改善"},{"start":13165.535,"end":13188.722,"text":"好的 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝委員 我們會近期就開始啟動讓他有很快的時間來處理好 謝謝邱志明委員的發言也謝謝部長跟署長的回答下一位林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員林委員不在我們再下一位請洪孟凱委員發言"},{"start":13196.445,"end":13198.069,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請施部長麻煩施部長好 部長"},{"start":13205.034,"end":13232.25,"text":"国人看到近期发生这个黑心大肠的事件其实对于我们全民国食安都有非常大的一个影响那我想先请教一下因为本席有看到是说相关的一个资料第一 这一家公司它在屏东已经从事珠藏加工作业多年对不对可是它是新北市这边有讲法说为如实进行食品业者登录及为投保产品责任险"},{"start":13233.403,"end":13241.932,"text":"換言之他就所謂的我們一般俗稱的是地下工廠那這種非典型的這個食安破口來講我們想請教到底全台灣目前還有多少家"},{"start":13243.251,"end":13260.597,"text":"按照我們的食安法的規定他本身是這個百威是登記在台北的一家食品公司只是他的倉儲設在新北是倉儲在新北然後加工在屏東加工廠在屏東屏東的這個加工廠沒有登錄進他的這個第一他已經"},{"start":13266.079,"end":13285.286,"text":"在屏東加工豬場多年了據相關政府的回報他已經多年可是自始至終沒有登錄食品業者再來他也沒有投保沒有登錄食品廠他們也沒有投保相關的責任險這就不是只是單一個案嗎"},{"start":13286.446,"end":13305.82,"text":"還是全台灣因為見為知著就是說我們現在想要理解說到底這樣子的一個個案到全台灣還有多少因為本席有看到食藥署近期公告擴大實施食品安全的檢測計畫本席予以肯定因為這個是食安把關但是這個心智主要是針對有登記有規模的業者"},{"start":13306.701,"end":13330.286,"text":"那如果說以百威食品這個案例來講他就自始自終沒登記啊所以你們再怎麼擴大食品安全檢測是檢測不到百威的所以才會從下游往上查下游就是說販賣端就是販賣給消費者端他要去確認他的食材的來源那我們可不可以講一個大白話大實話到底全台灣現在還有多少百威"},{"start":13333.244,"end":13355.22,"text":"我們當然不敢講了不過整個從我們現在食安五環的概念他是必須比如說你是販賣這個麵線的那你用了這個大廠你的來源你要確認他是來自於合法應該說我們期待的是所有的食品最終端的食品業者他要進口的他要購買的原料也都是合格的"},{"start":13356.661,"end":13383.579,"text":"對 確認來自於合格的食品那我再請教這個百威食品它現在我們查獲所用的豬場來自於哪裡那個是農場就是那個屏東的是國內的還是進口的國內的屠宰場那照理講國內的屠宰場它賣給誰這就兩端嘛一個是國內的屠宰場它是合法合格的屠宰場那它賣給一個百威但是百威它是"},{"start":13384.7,"end":13405.448,"text":"不合格沒登記應該這麼講因為他還是登記他是食品廠所以他賣給他的時候認為他是賣給一個食品業者因為他有登記食品公司只是這一個操作的點是沒有登錄進來的合法的場所所以署長我們在這個案例裡面就像剛剛你也講到是說可以從下游管理但是"},{"start":13405.928,"end":13432.863,"text":"某種程度上上游來溯源也是可以的兩端應該都要一起因為我們不要說整個一個供應鏈來講中間有一個破口但是很明顯這個案例裡面就是中間出現了破口他用非法的工業用的雙氧水來去做加工造成說上游以為他賣給是一個合法的食品廠下游以為他可能買到的也是一個合法的但中間他做的是一個黑心的事情"},{"start":13434.464,"end":13455.983,"text":"那如果說從這部分來講的話我們未來可以怎麼樣因應因為你現在擴大稽查中間的工廠可是你查不到這些地下工廠啊對 所以當然是規定都已經有了所以一旦查獲的話一定是嚴懲不要讓他們有這個僥倖的心態可是我們希望的是不要有這樣的狀況發生因為大家都已經吃下肚了嘛"},{"start":13457.284,"end":13474.623,"text":"對 然後另一方面就透過這個E化讓它整個這個食品鏈能夠串起來包含電子發票電子登錄讓它串起來部長 那我們這樣子這些作為什麼時候可以更加強改善我們現在已經讓這個電子發票跟"},{"start":13475.784,"end":13498.273,"text":"電子登錄的百分比大概是在食品廠的九成到九成五各縣市當然不一樣那我們希望把這最後一里路趕快把它完成那最後一里路還沒有辦法完成主要原因是什麼當然還要考慮到沒錢沒人沒有就是這些業者本身的意願或者是他的規模等等會有這些考慮所以部長您提到其實很"},{"start":13499.033,"end":13523.013,"text":"中肯的一个状况就是说我们至少百分之九十几就是能够全面的来做这样子的一个路线你影响的大多数的消费者也是有比较保障但是在这个案例你有没有再请教我有看到我们食药署也已经重罚五千四百万罚还可是查了一下百威这个食品公司它登记资本额只有"},{"start":13525.315,"end":13539.961,"text":"500萬對那5000是收得到嗎我們向法院申請假扣押已經申請了對那這個負責人他有一個三天的時間然後之後我們就申請所以第一我們已經申請假扣押所以他名下的這些財產相關方面也不會讓他脫財"},{"start":13541.421,"end":13563.358,"text":"我們第一步呢先依請這個行政執行署來做強制執行是然後第二個再跟法院做假扣押是那這一個負責人因為我看到地檢署還有在偵辦有可能有所謂的刑事責任所以會持續偵辦當中對 那我們行政法我們就先走了那那個刑事的部分由這個檢調繼續在偵查中好"},{"start":13566.44,"end":13586.517,"text":"那最後一個部分因為今年4月中央政府有對於未登記的食品工廠輔導轉型合格納管工廠的專案我們全台灣到目前為止這今年4月的資料還有134家未登記的食品工廠是不是這可能跟這個食安辦比較有相關"},{"start":13588.095,"end":13609.736,"text":"跟委員報告 具體的數目是要問經濟部產業發展署有一些是特登的工廠我們在幾年前有一個工廠管理法的修法之後"},{"start":13611.007,"end":13623.727,"text":"有做一些特登工廠去輔導那至於您剛問說還有多少沒有納管那個具體的數字我們有不過可能還有所以"},{"start":13626.871,"end":13653.785,"text":"來 部長也好或者說我們食安辦主任有沒有注意到一個重點今天我們面臨到一個是食安看到的是食品工廠本行拿這個資料是今年4月你們所提供的新聞稿相關資料所以有134家有掌握但還沒有登記的食品工廠那需要配合工廠輔導管理法來去協助他做合法可是這個時間期限在什麼時候我們在2030"},{"start":13657.327,"end":13678.08,"text":"2040對不對一個是2030你要去完成登記特種工廠一個是要整個用地完全合法是2040當然這是法令規定可是凸顯什麼問題凸顯工廠要問經濟部食安要問衛福部然後我們還有一個行政院食品安全辦公室"},{"start":13679.144,"end":13701.491,"text":"可是三方面就是一問到工廠問經濟部經濟部今天剛好沒來那食安衛福部要管理然後還有我們行政院食安辦公室結果又說這應該是兩個部會各自要去協調這個從法規上面確實這樣不過因為在食安管理上面跟用地所在地是無關的只要他是做食品業者有這個行為都要去"},{"start":13702.952,"end":13710.403,"text":"衛福部的這個去登錄然後要去接受這個GHP的這個定期的集合"},{"start":13711.877,"end":13738.85,"text":"就是說他跟用地的那個長址的身份是無關只要他有這個行為我們就是一律在未卜不納等下還有其他的質詢我想部長我還是拉回來就是說今天國人都很關心食品安全那我們也希望食品安全真的是良好把關但是食安如果說有跨兩個部會然後還有這個一個辦公室在中間我們期待的是辦公室要嘛就整合兩個部會要嘛就一個部會來做主責來去處理而不是"},{"start":13739.47,"end":13767.815,"text":"食安歸我 但是工廠歸他工廠歸他 食安歸你就到最後就是互推皮球了部長能不能針對這部分來跟經濟部來做進一步的溝通看怎麼樣能夠讓這樣子運作上來講更加順暢好 我們會來努力把這兩邊都無縫接軌起來謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝洪孟愷委員的發言謝謝部長跟許主任的應答下一位我們請謝一鳳委員發言"},{"start":13775.363,"end":13803.889,"text":"謝謝主席我想請部長請施部長部長我想請問一下就是如果像剛才所有委員在質詢的那現在跟百威這樣子就是工廠加工廠到底就是不管當然經濟部有納管而沒有合法的還有一些沒有納管也不合法的那到底在市面上還有多少"},{"start":13804.537,"end":13827.824,"text":"大概我們的做法會是這樣子處理就是用他的這個稅籍跟我們的食品業者的登錄每年都會做勾結去發現用業者的稅籍對稅籍跟我們的登錄食品業的目前稅籍加上食品業的登錄兩邊登錄如果不一致的今年查查的結果大概4萬家"},{"start":13830.946,"end":13858.54,"text":"71萬的食品廠大概有差不多4萬家這有不合不合我們就會去由各衛生局去把它對就會去查核然後所以目前報的只是冰山一角是不是這邊跟委員進一步說明因為4萬家是這樣我現在做生意所以我先登錄了一些相次但它實際上營業的是沒有所以因為只要是有不一樣的我們就把它挑出來並不是說這4萬家都是有問題的是因為它"},{"start":13859.56,"end":13886.11,"text":"申請這個營業項目所以目前你們所宣稱的4萬家只是說就是營業項目跟登錄有不一樣的部分是不是那這只是說在可是到底有多少家你們還不清楚所以我們跟委員說明這4萬家我們是責任衛生局儲家去查查他確立他的營業項目到底跟他登記的能不能夠一致"},{"start":13886.73,"end":13901.168,"text":"那四萬家是跟目前百威的狀況一樣嗎不一樣 百威是完全沒有登錄的它完全連登錄都沒登錄的那你們現在查有登錄的結果沒有登錄的才有問題啊 是不是"},{"start":13902.205,"end":13929.381,"text":"现在是不是这样意思没有登录的意思就是说在我们的这个食安法里面有规范你这个食品业者你都包含摊商你都应该去确认你的来源的合法性要来自你合法的来源所以你这样子说你从下游去查但是你先刚才按照你所跟我说的你其实是去查那些已经有税级的然后与登录不符的部分是不是是万家我们"},{"start":13929.821,"end":13955.612,"text":"但是百威的狀況並不是這樣他違法使用工業的雙氧水然後去來就是說去來清洗這個豬大腸導致這樣子有食品安全疑慮的進到了所有的小吃的商家嘛對不對我們甚至還不知道進到哪一家我從新聞看也只知道說有著名的麵線而已那其他呢"},{"start":13957.032,"end":13975.68,"text":"這個案子是分成兩塊一個是本身他的登記他做這個加工可是他沒有去合法登記這個是一個問題第二個是在加工的過程使用了我們不允許的添加物也就是工業用的雙氧水"},{"start":13976.3,"end":13993.381,"text":"那所以這個整個流向是清楚啦所有從他的帳部裡面流向我們都對外都已經清楚公佈主要流入市場的就是在台北市跟這個屏東這兩個市場的地方而已所以流向是清楚那我們的重點是第一個這一個"},{"start":13995.782,"end":14020.526,"text":"沒有登錄完整的這個業者是重罰的那當然也要提醒所有的這個整個食品鏈當中的所有的業者你都要去確認你的來源是合法不要去購買不明來源的貨源這個也是有責任的那第二個呢就是我們透過這個追蹤追溯的系統去把整個這個產製銷整個鏈都能夠建構起來"},{"start":14025.407,"end":14042.579,"text":"所以才能夠掌握這每一個地方都是來自於合法的這個業者所以這個是追蹤追溯的這個系統的建立那讓他更及時的話那就是做到電子化包含這個電子發票的開立跟電子登錄"},{"start":14043.8,"end":14073.343,"text":"可是我是說其實當然你剛才講的後端的就是一些登錄跟就是說登記不實的這部分當然是另外一個部分但是其實最重要的是就是說我們這一次發生這個食安問題最重要的部分在於它使用非法的這樣子的一個加工的東西那這個部分的我認為你們應該要全面性去清查這對於民眾現在時的安全是最重要的"},{"start":14073.843,"end":14101.258,"text":"那當然你們必須要了解像這樣子的工業用的雙氧水到底有多少用在食品的這個添加物裡面是不是然後或者是用來相關處理食品的這樣子的一個程序裡面那這才是民眾目前最擔心也最擔憂的因為畢竟這都是銅板美食那對於民眾可能日常都會接觸到的是不是"},{"start":14102.138,"end":14120.093,"text":"如果在現在食物價格高漲的情況下如果我們在平常使用的銅板美食那是一般庶民小民最常使用的都有這樣子的疑慮我們衛福部就沒有辦法保障民眾食的安全"},{"start":14121.354,"end":14140.419,"text":"所以跟委員報告說我們馬上就採取了兩件事情第一件事情就是說所有市面上的這個大廠的產品都去加強湊驗看看有沒有這個雙氧水就是H2O2的殘留那目前有沒有那目前查了起來都沒有都沒有 已經查了一千多件了"},{"start":14141.299,"end":14169.173,"text":"一千多件是不是對 全國都查了那第二個是生產的工廠也進去加強茶廠那麼去確認它所使用有沒有使用到雙氧水那如果有使用到的是食品級的還是用工業級的所以這個也有抽查了一千九百九十家業者所以這個是會不會你抽查的都是抽查到好的啊有沒有抽查到對啊"},{"start":14169.853,"end":14190.85,"text":"沒有 就是全面性的查會不會都是抽查到好的不會 我們都是全面性全國去查了有在供應的還有我想要問一下就是川普總統他說10月1號開始所有品牌藥跟專利藥開徵100%的關稅只有在美國設廠或者是動工的藥廠藥品可以免稅所以"},{"start":14198.276,"end":14219.795,"text":"對於我們目前有214個進口的藥專利藥可能會受到波及那我想要請問我們任性特別條例有200億要撥給健保基金來使用那這有沒有辦法確保民眾用藥安全還是因為你撥到健保基金是一個大水庫你會不會把這200億"},{"start":14221.823,"end":14237.305,"text":"你健保裡面還有很多事情要做嘛要改變嘛對不對那會不會用到別處那反而我們為了這個關稅因應所撥的這200億會不會被你拿去做別的使用"},{"start":14237.665,"end":14264.203,"text":"不会跟委员报告过去都还有这样的例子虽然川普总统有曾经宣布这样的事情可是到目前的法规我们都密切的在追踪还没有正式的文件正式的文件出来以他初步的说法主要是针对原厂药不是学民药所以学民药是排除在外那么他也排除了原料药"},{"start":14265.404,"end":14283.825,"text":"所以原料药的部分也没在这个加征的范围里面所以评估起来大概影响的程度就大幅的降低了所以大幅的降低原厂药的部分对原厂药的部分还是有可能还是在补其他你健保的"},{"start":14284.285,"end":14305.193,"text":"專利期內的還是有可能受影響因為他的對象是針對那個原廠藥跟專利期內的那個藥所以還是有可能受影響但是我們因為他還沒有正式公佈正式的文件我們是密切的在注意那至於我們在特別條例裡面特別預算變了這個200億優先會使用在因應這個關稅萬一如果"},{"start":14307.314,"end":14334.934,"text":"造成這個藥品成本的上升可以來提高藥價像4月到現在我們也增加了200多項藥品的價格我們已經合出去已經提高了所以我們這一筆錢會優先應應在健保裡面的藥價調整因為我們的藥價不知道會發生什麼所以預備在那裡但是如果沒有用掉的還是在健保基金裡頭不會拿來做其他的用途"},{"start":14335.174,"end":14361.856,"text":"不是 我是說你健保基金裡面當然除了這個藥以外你還有其他的部分 對不對不會的 健保的基金都是使用在民眾的服務上面沒有其他的公務預算使用是不是就是特別多編然後來補你健保的缺口 是不是健保的缺口也是用在這個民眾跟醫療服務單位的也不會是政府部門拿來自己用的"},{"start":14362.537,"end":14371.582,"text":"好謝謝好好謝謝委員好謝謝謝一芬委員的發言也謝謝部長跟署長的回答現在我們請廖偉強委員發言謝主席請部長還有署長"},{"start":14389.403,"end":14413.045,"text":"有請部長 還有市長 趙偉好部長好 想要請教一下因為食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人對不對但每年有超過大概76萬批的進口食品的集合需求的存在所以以目前的總數量來講就已經是超過負荷"},{"start":14413.846,"end":14431.574,"text":"那在地方衛生局的方面呢只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人還遠遠不足嘛"},{"start":14434.011,"end":14461.986,"text":"那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那"},{"start":14462.626,"end":14492.066,"text":"所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象"},{"start":14492.886,"end":14517.332,"text":"然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好 跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對 就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個對 用邊境的部分來"},{"start":14520.633,"end":14546.732,"text":"協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣"},{"start":14547.512,"end":14568.986,"text":"對 因為本席想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本席要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對"},{"start":14571.707,"end":14595.539,"text":"好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金跟"},{"start":14599.901,"end":14623.699,"text":"跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標因為我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的"},{"start":14624.64,"end":14642.845,"text":"或者是他要聘人聘請會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低"},{"start":14644.445,"end":14672.032,"text":"3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻那現在我們要逐步的把它往下"},{"start":14672.532,"end":14694.231,"text":"那等於是讓我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對 因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者你這樣子你的精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置"},{"start":14694.952,"end":14710.904,"text":"那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據"},{"start":14712.245,"end":14733.771,"text":"那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案有5項的稽查專案那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎"},{"start":14736.172,"end":14764.344,"text":"那該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去稽查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終稽查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP"},{"start":14766.027,"end":14795.445,"text":"那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升它的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的"},{"start":14795.965,"end":14822.075,"text":"這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些"},{"start":14823.915,"end":14844.38,"text":"風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對 這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有在增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數也有"},{"start":14845.52,"end":14869.627,"text":"也是同時在進行所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家結果你自己只看了17家這部分要請署長"},{"start":14871.64,"end":14886.517,"text":"把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的 一定會的 謝謝那針對這一次的毒大腸的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度"},{"start":14887.082,"end":14905.771,"text":"那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零"},{"start":14907.412,"end":14926.623,"text":"好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善"},{"start":14928.688,"end":14953.481,"text":"委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職的人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的"},{"start":14954.201,"end":14972.095,"text":"的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的"},{"start":14973.123,"end":14998.91,"text":"那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公私協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分特別是工衛師的部分因為工衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議"},{"start":14999.75,"end":15017.765,"text":"那至於前面的所以有在演繹嘛是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼"},{"start":15021.499,"end":15046.714,"text":"目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早地納入一些協助好 那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件 我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下"},{"start":15047.654,"end":15062.712,"text":"在百威公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嘛但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好"},{"start":15064.006,"end":15078.968,"text":"那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的"},{"start":15079.847,"end":15103.937,"text":"我們其實在六月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢實際上行政稽查是定在七月十四號中間其實在保期檢調的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是七月三號七月初的時候所以你們六月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以"},{"start":15104.637,"end":15132.914,"text":"那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討對 因為我就是要說你剛剛有說這空排警線有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的而且這是推卸責任的"},{"start":15133.394,"end":15149.629,"text":"你說一定要讓檢調掉那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候哇 已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法請這部分要請部長積極主動"},{"start":15151.37,"end":15169.391,"text":"不要再跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲了我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況是"},{"start":15170.812,"end":15192.946,"text":"再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大廠或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對"},{"start":15193.866,"end":15212.115,"text":"所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣"},{"start":15215.8,"end":15241.774,"text":"這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是它是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對 這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會更密切的來去做是 署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現其實它這件事情的核心其實是"},{"start":15242.614,"end":15261.863,"text":"可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對"},{"start":15263.084,"end":15278.457,"text":"那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏那這部分邀請我們食安辦主任"},{"start":15281.334,"end":15295.742,"text":"所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題"},{"start":15297.763,"end":15321.572,"text":"所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物"},{"start":15322.552,"end":15337.941,"text":"就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對 所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會"},{"start":15338.721,"end":15357.755,"text":"就是剛剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時候"},{"start":15359.116,"end":15374.177,"text":"多少時間我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說"},{"start":15375.118,"end":15396.503,"text":"這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員"},{"start":15402.859,"end":15414.296,"text":"謝謝廖偉祥召委的發言謝謝部長跟主任們的回應下一位我們請顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在下一位請劉建國召委發言"},{"start":15421.232,"end":15440.451,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請食安辦徐主任還有江署長食安辦徐主任 部長你會不會我希望跟主任跟署長對話也請部長聽看看部長因為我們在修食安法的時候那個時候你應該是144的司長100年的時候 你說"},{"start":15443.093,"end":15468.046,"text":"應該主任跟江署長都應該都會有這樣的印象不過當時你們都還沒有來啦從100年的時候什麼地溝油啦毒奶粉啦然後工業用的其中還有一個是工業用的某某什麼樣的一個原料他基本上也流用到很大的食品廠裡面去做他的添加物這個所以從100年的時候一直修修修修了修了將近"},{"start":15470.127,"end":15489.579,"text":"應該是七次到八次就是要讓這個食安法更真完備也建立起台灣消費者對政府的信心除此之外還有所有的這些業者的有所遵循不要再有這樣的一個這麼大的一個食安危機來產生所以今天才會特別來"},{"start":15491.2,"end":15508.496,"text":"辦這樣的一個 召開這樣的一個專案報告我要接續剛剛王子旭委員的槌尋還有廖偉祥召委的槌尋剛剛主任是回答他一個月時間你說這一個月 如果再給你一個月時間三華可能又要再重來大修了"},{"start":15509.676,"end":15522.943,"text":"如果剛剛聽到部長針對蘇清泉召委臨時提案部長跟江署長的回應目前我們已經有封存的是剛剛署長講是好像兩萬多噸後來部長趕快把麥克風搶起來說是1200多公斤然後從這家不銷廠家已經分送到應該是屬於中下游的廠家基本上應該"},{"start":15537.89,"end":15554.715,"text":"有扣兩千多公斤起來嘛 對不對但是已經出去的七八百公斤左右嘛這數字才正確嘛但是我會很驚訝因為署長就坐在部長旁邊為什麼你們兩個講的數據天狼地瘪今天是專案報告 署長今天是專案報告你們的專案報告裡面兩份基本上很多的數據該去凸顯出來通通沒有"},{"start":15563.457,"end":15585.797,"text":"你們自己回去看你們的專案報告是非常非常我是不願意講這些話了是已經藐視到未還委員會所有的委員也藐視台灣的消費者剛剛林委員講那些話我覺得我覺得坦白講你如果還不覺得那是一個非常重的話其實對江署長來講是一個很大的挑戰跟"},{"start":15587.455,"end":15612.486,"text":"跟諷刺了啦 因為我們都看好江署長就任之後應該對整個 不管是食品 不管是藥物會有很多的革新的 這樣的積極的作為那怎麼會在你任內發生這麼嚴重的事情他已經用到怠惰 瀆職 內神通外鬼還是外神通內鬼各位剛剛都有在場嘛 都有聽到這些話"},{"start":15614.482,"end":15640.733,"text":"那你們怎麼還會在臨時提案的時候會把數據又講錯如果要再追下去這些數據是這些而已嗎我再簡單講我實在是很想再聽徐主任講說這個事情怎麼會發生怎麼可能這樣發生怎麼發生完之後的處理的整個SOP是這個樣子到今天在委員會對所有委員做出的報告又是這個樣子"},{"start":15643.307,"end":15671.775,"text":"連剛剛你們打呼王委員的那一個內容你們就這樣講的過去我要簡單講當時因為很多的面向所以才會在這個委員會一直修一直修一直修有一個法律修的好像跟交通處罰條例一模一樣修不完 修不停修到最後大家覺得"},{"start":15673.134,"end":15700.449,"text":"台灣的食安已經往前邁進一大步那今天回過稻草原發生這件事情六月初被檢舉到十月才有這樣的動作然後你們剛剛答覆的是要會同保七總隊你跟我講在剛剛部長答覆委員的相關的問題這五年 這五年就好總共有告發三百五十幾件"},{"start":15701.665,"end":15726.304,"text":"總共金額花了兩千多萬 對不對這五年 這五年花了兩千多萬三百多件跟這一件雷同的 跟這件的樣態差不多的有需要收到檢舉六月 然後才十月初擴大檢警調然後相關單位去做處理嘛"},{"start":15728.123,"end":15742.931,"text":"我隨便都可以列舉等一下我的資料裡面就會顯示出來有拖這麼久嗎有需要這麼做嗎有需要這個是你們原有的SOP啊還是換了江書長之後SOP改了"},{"start":15747.048,"end":15774.287,"text":"所以我希望在委員會你們就很坦誠的很實際的把狀況講清楚了這個事情怎麼可能還有讓你一個月的時間去做什麼樣的調整跟修正部長 新官三任三把火你該立位就該要立位了因為畢竟你也當過衛福部的次長所以你去履歷一下這整個過程"},{"start":15775.731,"end":15803.798,"text":"真的問題大到很難想像我再簡單提醒兩件事情這家公司這家公司營業項目一大堆這家公司我們一樣算五年就好他用的工業用的淨的工業用的這雙氧水他淨了多少量他不是關注的化學物質但是他的這一個化學物質一直流向這家公司"},{"start":15804.386,"end":15830.405,"text":"這家公司零零總總登記的多數都是在做茶葉 煙酒 食品 農產 畜產 水產其他農畜產品 還有飼料 食品 食貨 飲料 零售業還有太多 太多通通跟食品有關係這五年這家公司進了多少公寓用的這磚農水"},{"start":15833.266,"end":15860.063,"text":"我們的政府不管是環境部的毒化署化學署現在改化學署我們的衛護部的FDA通通不知道通通沒有掌握還需要經過人家檢舉之後然後現在說要一個月時間來做相關的調整還是處理還是怎麼樣"},{"start":15863.69,"end":15885.682,"text":"這個你們說得過去你知道剛剛說查扣封存的查扣的這些這些是你們現在有扣的那再往前推還有其他廠家像這樣類似的大廠用在什麼樣的用在什麼樣的食物上主任你知道吧"},{"start":15886.755,"end":15902.904,"text":"不是只有台灣的特色小吃叫做大腸麵線他用了幾項我們每天台灣的國人幾乎通通要吃到大腸麵線不一定大家每天都會吃嘛那早餐有一個叫做什麼大腸豬尾湯 吃得到嗎"},{"start":15907.944,"end":15927.614,"text":"火鍋店的主要食材大腸是不是很重要的然後呢 還有什麼你可以講 大家講給我聽聽幾項時間到了這麼快對啊 滷味啊 麻辣啊 燒烤啊各種的其實炸肥腸啊 薑絲炒大腸啊肥腸茄堡啊剛剛在底下就寫了11項"},{"start":15937.099,"end":15963.372,"text":"就寫了11項不只啦還有還有我們每天到底這一家被你們查獲的被檢舉被你們查獲的這個廠家百威流入到這些店面餐廳火鍋店小吃店串燒店每天到底多少量查獲之前這5年我們就抓這5年就好了"},{"start":15968.016,"end":15996.304,"text":"所以主席給我等不到時間給主任講清楚了好不好好那個請跟委員報告委員一開始從食安法的修法開始那事實上這個是一個它是一個非法行為就是說我們如果從正規的業者應該用食品"},{"start":15997.134,"end":16016.932,"text":"集的食品添加物的雙氧水來做的時候是在我們的納管之中在這個案子裡面大概我們看到有幾個盲點就是說我們先前沒有注意到主任我希望你不要用盲點兩個字好不好"},{"start":16017.612,"end":16043.17,"text":"你應該直接了當講說這個哪一個環節是不應該會這樣發生的我希望我們就直接坦承了好不好謝謝對 其實從今天上午到現在有相當多討論第一個就是它在這個畜牧之後到食品的銜接的權責然後它業別一樣是很特別然後第二個它既然有食品"},{"start":16045.052,"end":16071.531,"text":"這個從事食品加工的行為然後他沒有去食品業者去登錄然後我們在原有的這樣的他為什麼沒有去登錄因為他為什麼到這件事情發生之後才知道他沒有去登錄對 這個這家公司開多久了你們掌握他這家公司開多久了上午的商登大概是一二十年的百威他五百萬的那個"},{"start":16073.817,"end":16098.612,"text":"資本額 對然後那我們初步的了解是他認為他是屬農方在管理在那個屠宰場裡面所以屠宰場就是農方但事實上他的業他的從業的行為是在跟食品就等於分分切處理那一塊了所以我們其實就會對這一塊在介於農方跟衛方間的兩邊都"},{"start":16101.083,"end":16120.76,"text":"會未來共同去管理那至於剛剛先不要講未來我們先講說這家公司我這邊寫的是核准設立的日期是102年最後核准變更日期是113年就是這樣的數據應該不會不可能對不對不管怎樣他就是一個叫做他的名稱叫做百威食品"},{"start":16121.681,"end":16138.676,"text":"有限公司對那我們一樣追五年嘛這五年它到底進了多少的工業用的雙氧水嘛為什麼這件事情它是食品公司啊它進了這麼多的工業用的雙氧水"},{"start":16140.489,"end":16168.421,"text":"你們剛剛還在講說川東水有分食用跟工業用他就是禁工業用啊工業用的在現在的狀況是沒有納入環境部的這個關注化學所以我們現在第一步就要把他這個請環境部納到他的這個關注化學他沒有納入到關注的化學物質的情況之下他是又是一家食品有限公司他這五年到底進了多少工業用的"},{"start":16169.581,"end":16191.028,"text":"這個雙氧水怎麼你們通通不知道食安五環是這樣嗎食安五環是一定要關注的化學物質你們才有辦法勾結的到嗎是這樣嗎你真的要很慎重很專業的回答我的問題喔我剛剛在主席台我就已經提醒你們今天為什麼要辦這個專案報告"},{"start":16193.986,"end":16222.026,"text":"我們如果不清楚 我不會這樣講啦我希望我們把事情就講清楚因為已經有人講說你們瀆職了啊你們內神通外鬼 外鬼通內神我實在不想再講這些話那個現行的情況確實我們沒有掌握這個怎麼會沒有掌握怎麼會有這樣的落實沒有掌握到因為只有關注化學"},{"start":16222.97,"end":16244.743,"text":"物質才要去化學運申報是然後因為他並沒有列進去所以一家食品有限公司他只要他進的都不是關注的化學物質他這五年進了已經完全不合乎常理的情況之下來供應這個食品加工廠他自己本身的廠廠去做"},{"start":16245.62,"end":16273.96,"text":"什麼樣的情況去調配或是加入或是添加我們通通管不到只因為它不叫做關注的化學物質所以我們食安辦我們FDA我們環境部通通管不到是這樣嗎我們當時修華有辦法修到讓你可以今天來對委會講說這就是盲點這就是修華上的遺漏之處你現在要答呼我是這樣嗎"},{"start":16275.66,"end":16304.955,"text":"你對過去的100年那第8屆第9屆的委員你要講說你們修法就是很兩光啊今天才會發生這樣的事情啊他根本不能夠用那如果他進了這一類的這一個非實天的第8屆的時候楊耀文已經來了喔他有參與修法那個他要說明他是怎麼樣的用途是在洗地板的或者是環境用途特別的用途要跟誰說明"},{"start":16306.991,"end":16331.403,"text":"他自己就要寫記錄然後跟集合的時候就要可以解釋出來一般的時候會有地方的這個衛生局然後那定期如果排專案的時候會有這個跨單位的去聯機所以地方政府有問題還是你不好意思說"},{"start":16333.044,"end":16357.973,"text":"還是地方政府跟FDA南區的都有問題你也不好意思說你是食安辦的主任你有什麼好不好意思說的因為實際狀況因為他沒有登錄所以很可能會在名單之外所以這個得要緊迫的要把這個洞補上我實在因為這個講下去時間用很多啦後面還有兩個位委員"},{"start":16360.502,"end":16380.853,"text":"昨天你剛剛答覆我第一句話 我覺得食安辦已經不見了我已經把結論寫出來了環境部不管 衛福部不吃然後就創造台灣成千上萬個無辜的消費者因為每天都要吃這些東西"},{"start":16383.513,"end":16407.492,"text":"最後我再講部長可能底下提供給你訊息的你要用可能要小心一點過去5年355件花了2500多萬然後這一件花了5400萬要給他破產我覺得這件事情這個業者還沒有破產我們的食安班跟食藥署就已經破產了"},{"start":16410.956,"end":16438.637,"text":"你要跟我講說這一件是故意的所以就重罰5400萬355件花了2500多萬通通不是故意的是這樣嗎2500多萬除以355件平均一件7萬你這一件叫做故意的所以就是你平均裁罰在5年委婉食品相關的法律的這些業者高於幾倍呢770倍了"},{"start":16444.827,"end":16473.802,"text":"你覺得在過嗎所以我再問下去 再提醒剛剛主任才講到第一個環節而已喔後面還有很多這邊都留下一些歷史紀錄不管是FDA 不管是地方政府不管是新北 台北 台南 高雄等等等只要稽查"},{"start":16475.533,"end":16498.581,"text":"稽查相關視頻過期啊你們就雷力風行到什麼程度了這些事情一個大腸每天台灣消費者在很多面向都必須要實用到你們可以六月被接受檢舉之後拖到十月你才大張旗鼓的有檢調 檢警調大大大七個單位六七個單位"},{"start":16501.655,"end":16519.064,"text":"去做稽查然後才封存的1200多公斤而已三個多月從六月被檢舉我們都不要再抓了我們從六月開始你們受以檢舉那個時候這家公司又製造的"},{"start":16520.266,"end":16545.827,"text":"又加入了公用的雙氧水每天多少量每天出到什麼地方去總共一直到被你們封存之後這組組將近一百多天請把數據公布給大家知道請把數據公布給大家知道然後相關的人員必須要負起什麼樣的責任要不要連跟你們一起去的檢調檢察官已並辦這裡面到底"},{"start":16549.534,"end":16574.345,"text":"涉及多少的隱匿不報涉及多少的工人該作為而不作為就獨持要不要一併辦請這個禮拜請這個禮拜把相關的一些調查報告是不是給未還委員會我禮拜四還是可以變更議程不可能等到你們一個月"},{"start":16576.372,"end":16594.41,"text":"請主任 署長 還有部長來正視這個事情是好 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝劉建國稍微的發言謝謝許主任的回應下一位我們請曾振淺委員曾振淺委員 曾振淺我不在下一位請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":16608.001,"end":16630.95,"text":"你好 麻煩請部長謝謝好 又請施部長委員好部長好 我們現在在討論這個食安問題嘛在前政府啦 蔡總統時期一直強調食安五環可以確保大家的食安沒有問題但很顯然喔 這個事件就是獨大腸事件它是從源頭管理就出現問題"},{"start":16632.37,"end":16656.127,"text":"剛剛我有看到包括執政黨立委都非常不滿譬如說之前因為今天沒有環境部啦但是環境部那個時候也是跟大家講說十安五環的第一環源頭管理要一些化學添加物他都要管理沒錯吧所以積極遊說大家成立讀畫局而且還要花錢去建置化學雲"},{"start":16657.148,"end":16666.58,"text":"就是說那個如果有相關的化學的東西要登錄然後如果他的流向是比較不正當的地方而不是不正當啦是這個讀大長時間有做"},{"start":16676.584,"end":16690.257,"text":"跟委員說明剛好這個雙氧水H2O2沒有在化學雲應登錄的項目沒有所以那時候化學雲在建置的時候沒有思考到工業用雙氧水會拿去洗大廠"},{"start":16691.911,"end":16706.825,"text":"沒有思考到這件事情當時候沒有當時候沒有那工業用雙氧水有沒有可能也是去洗別的東西有沒有可能除了洗大腸之外有沒有可能洗其他食品造成也是一樣毒食品的狀況有沒有可能"},{"start":16709.2,"end":16730.667,"text":"就是這個如果是食用食品級的H2O2的雙氧水是可以做我是說因為它食品級可以用就有可能被混進去用所以工業我們才會說要納入那個化學雲部長因為今天環境部沒來啦我跟你請教一下你覺得工業用雙氧水應不應該被納入化學雲"},{"start":16731.527,"end":16759.051,"text":"應該要把它那為什麼之前政府講的好像源頭管理多厲害啊食安靠政府啊有政府就沒問題啦結果連一個工業用算用水當時在建置化學雲的時候都想不到跟委員報當時候在考量哪些要納入的時候他有考慮到第一個是他的那個風險程度啦他的毒性啦顯然就判斷失準嘛如果今天如果那時候講那麼準的話我們今天也不用討論這個題目了嘛"},{"start":16760.151,"end":16789.034,"text":"所以今天沒有環境部因為但是食安組織單位還是衛福部是不是可以請衛福部跟環境部講清楚那個時候建制化學研究所講得那麼厲害然後結果連什麼該納入什麼不該納入都有漏掉的這個國人會覺得很訝異特別報告一下因為雙氧水H2O2它其實經過時間之後它其實就變水了所以它本身的毒性當初的想法它是毒性低的"},{"start":16789.875,"end":16793.885,"text":"所以相較以前的塑化劑相較以前的毒澱粉的"},{"start":16795.222,"end":16819.353,"text":"所以你覺得不用納入嗎所以署長覺得不用納入是不是當初是這樣子的想法所以你就不用再講當初了嘛我們現在就已經我們現在就是在討論這個毒大腸事件你還在跟我講當初部長剛剛都說應該納入所以你覺得不該納入嗎所以我們現在覺得他應該需要我現在只是講說會不會你當初認為風險比較低的東西其實他的風險比你想像的高嘛"},{"start":16820.728,"end":16837.697,"text":"工業用雙氧水就是嘛就是它的用途多啦對 用途多嘛所以它就有可能變成風險高的東西所以我是說請衛福部跟環境部建議好不好就是說重新再去思考一下哪一些化學添加物應該要被納入的就是從之前認為風險比較低現在發現從這個事件"},{"start":16842.279,"end":16865.03,"text":"未來可以把它納入了你們跟他們建議一下 是從食安的角度 是好不好 第二個跟文報我們會去盤點這些化學添加物哪些是還同時有工業用的我們一起做盤點一起做盤點 對好不好 讓那個化學雲建制的有用好不好第二個 這個就應該就是衛福部的業務了就是有一個你們有一個登錄平台叫做非登不可 對"},{"start":16866.656,"end":16893.074,"text":"我們去查了一下這家屏東百貨公司好像飛燈不可也沒有他的資料對 他沒有登錄那你們當初在宣傳飛燈不可的時候還拍影片啊還做一大堆宣傳說103年12月31號以前沒有登錄的人業者是不可以營業的而且在宣傳的時候嚴格到什麼地步連那個送外賣的都要登錄啊結果一個做大廠"},{"start":16894.781,"end":16910.66,"text":"做這麼多的不用登錄為什麼所以這個違法沒有登錄我們就給他重罰因為我們這個要求就是要去登錄那你故意違法漠視這個法律規定這已經有一段時間了所以我們才予以重罰所以前面的源頭都出問題嘛"},{"start":16912.116,"end":16928.603,"text":"你沒有辦法從源頭這個角度去處理去把食安的問題把它防避啊不管是化學雲啊飛燈不可你現在是事後罰嘛但是飛燈不可應該是屬於源頭管理嘛對不對那所以如果源頭出問題那衛福部應該要怎麼解決勒"},{"start":16932.852,"end":16947.666,"text":"這個還是要強制去做我就事後把事後把大家的那個大腸都吃下去了而且這一次那個大腸事件其實有賴很多下游業者自己自發性的跳出來講了比如說像阿周麵線他是自己第一時間跳出來講嘛說他有勁嘛對不對"},{"start":16948.466,"end":16964.711,"text":"那如果他沒有一開跳出來講等到衛福部或地方衛生局去查查查然後他又沒有登錄沒有登錄會增加查的時間嘛所以很可能如果不是業者自發性有良心的業者自己出來的話吃到肚子裡面的更多啦所以這也是一個很大的漏洞啊"},{"start":16966.156,"end":16981.164,"text":"對 所以部長要怎麼解決這個我們會去加強這個登錄還有上下游的串聯來讓我們掌握住哪個地方的環節可能要怎麼加強上下游串聯前後 就是你一定有"},{"start":16981.824,"end":17001.218,"text":"下游嘛下游你要去核對說那你買的貨源是不是合法有登錄的來源這些是整個上下游要串聯起來這個是我們現在在做為什麼要讓他這個通通上平台那麼從產至銷通通要一條龍把它串起來就是這樣"},{"start":17002.963,"end":17029.659,"text":"那部長你們應該會提一個檢討報告出來吧因為今天大家也問了很多嘛那顯然有一些只是比較抽象概念沒有具體的做法那是不是會有一個比較具體的做法來跟那個至少一個報告給大家參考一下從這個案件呢從這個案件我們會做一些內部的檢討還有哪一些環節可以再強化的所以你也覺得食安五環有問題嗎"},{"start":17030.94,"end":17042.566,"text":"還是有強化的作業上有很大的問題是之前吹噓得太厲害了好啦 再來喔我跟你問一下那個缺藥的問題因為現在有很多藥都退出台灣了嘛"},{"start":17043.669,"end":17071.225,"text":"那魏福布的態度是覺得影響不大因為有很多替代性的用藥是吧跟委員報告我們現在健保供應的藥品是一萬四千多項那這裡面這一次呢今年登錄先來通報說他打算在六個月間會這個停止提供的大概這四十七個項目裡頭這個我都知道這個新聞都有報了你們也都有講過我的問題是說這裡面都是有學名"},{"start":17071.565,"end":17095.755,"text":"因为魏福布讲的是说因为有选民药或者是替代所以影响不大这个全世界大概都是这个趋势实际上我们就听有些医生反映例如说像化痰药气疏痰其实它退出市场其实很多病人很多人在反映这个药当然你说有替代药但问题是好像有人用了替代药效果没有气疏痰那么"},{"start":17096.895,"end":17114.003,"text":"以這個藥這個Visobon來講它是印尼廠那是因為這個代理商跟這個印尼廠的合約上出問題那是不是因為你價格砍到他不敷成本所以印尼廠商都不願意做所以他現在尋求另外一個廠所以實際上是跟藥價還是有關嘛"},{"start":17116.224,"end":17131.552,"text":"那我是觉得如果是药架我们都可以来调整因为你们在那个药哪一些药本来是自费药要纳入健保药这一块我是听很多医生在讲有时候健保署就管得太宽了有些药"},{"start":17132.572,"end":17160.623,"text":"有些病人他就是願意自費去做因為他比較好願意自費但是硬要把那個自費藥變成健保藥然後又砍藥價人家就退出去變得原本要自費都用不到其實這是一個問題第二個是像有一些藥如果你要把它砍到價格夫夫成本那人家當然只有退出但是你講的又是說那沒有關係退出就退出我們有全民藥我們有替代藥品可是使用的狀況就是不如原廠的藥來得好最後受害的還是病人"},{"start":17161.77,"end":17187.095,"text":"不過我覺得在處理這個藥價的部分你要考量的點很多啦因為藥品不是一般的產品藥品是方方面面都要考量啦這個確實像委員說的這個需要考量的層面很廣所以到底是不是給予這個所謂的病人自費的差額負擔就可以解決這個問題我們會再更審慎的去評估好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝部長請問"},{"start":17191.731,"end":17214.929,"text":"謝謝葉委員 接下來請奈會委員 奈會員委員 奈會委員不在請楊耀委員謝謝主席 主席請一下部長和署長還有署長楊委員好"},{"start":17219.715,"end":17245.134,"text":"兩個人同樣專業就不知道要問哪一個這兩個人很專業我直接這樣子問好了就是我們今年大概有到9月底有47個7項的藥品包括學名藥跟針劑將提供供應請問一下這個到底跟藥價有沒有關係"},{"start":17247.097,"end":17269.327,"text":"跟委員報告這個47項裡面大概屬於原廠要的是24個但是這個原廠都已經有學民要出來所以他們多數是考慮到他們的市場定位像那個什麼百優姐千優姐他根本就是不做了因為跟學民要太多了他不要再跟人家競爭了他就"},{"start":17270.167,"end":17286.278,"text":"轉變他的這個商業的策略去發展他的專利藥為主所以這全部沒有一樣是專利期內的藥不供應都是過了專利期同時有學名藥所以其實跟藥價是沒有關係的"},{"start":17287.979,"end":17310.887,"text":"那藥價我們都可以來提高所以像4月到現在我們也合訂了200多項的藥品給它提高藥價如果真的是因為成本物料的價格的影響也可以來提其實有學名藥出來以後的延長藥其實它的價格本來也就跟學名藥差不多對 這個全世界都是應該是這樣"},{"start":17312.607,"end":17322.511,"text":"只是說我們要去確保這些學名藥的療效讓它相等在保障這個病人用藥的安全會不會引發缺藥的問題"},{"start":17325.566,"end":17342.262,"text":"会缺药是病人拿不到药叫做缺药所以我们要处理的是要预警就是不要你突然间断药了断药的时候病人他换药也要有一定的时间去适应所以我们才会要求说这些要停止"},{"start":17343.423,"end":17357.182,"text":"供應的一定要提早講提早講我們就有辦法來因應不論是開始做統一的控貨或者是輔導其他的業者增加產量因為有些有學名要可是他產線有限"},{"start":17358.303,"end":17384.416,"text":"它要一下子增加也要時間所以這些我們都有辦法因為只要提早預警我們後面就不會有缺藥的問題我們還是利用這個機會讓部長和署長講一下原廠藥跟學名藥因為大概這一次缺藥所以很多人對學名藥會有誤解我覺得這個部裡面跟署裡面應該要去加強宣導"},{"start":17387.301,"end":17409.866,"text":"原廠藥就是因為藥廠他負責研發所以研發的費用很貴所以給他5年的專利期不只喔專利期有時候很長 20幾年都有可能看他投資專利期過了以後他大概就會公佈他的成分 劑量跟劑型"},{"start":17410.846,"end":17428.168,"text":"那其他的藥廠就可以根據這三項去形塑出來它可能藥的包裝不一樣然後形塑的過程會有差異可是通常來講藥效並沒有說一定就是原廠的比較好"},{"start":17428.849,"end":17456.686,"text":"對不對 對譬如說大家最接受的普拿程它就是學名藥跟委員報告 對很多人以為普拿程是原廠藥不是 它也是學名藥對 所以我才想說藉這個機會是不是提醒一下部裡面跟署裡面就是盡可能讓國人知道避免恐慌大家都以為說原廠藥的療效比較好"},{"start":17457.606,"end":17476.518,"text":"其實不見得啦應該這麼講就是學名要問世問世的前提就是原廠要公佈了他的所有的配方所以理論上應該是沒有不必要造成這麼大的恐慌只要他的製程符合"},{"start":17476.718,"end":17492.466,"text":"符合規範像我們現在是Peace GNP廠自成符合規範配方對了其實有的都還會做臨床試驗做BABE生物相等性這些所以那個可以確保這個要效是相當的基本上就是不一定"},{"start":17493.126,"end":17516.599,"text":"不一定完全一樣啦那每個病人接受的也不一樣啦可是我覺得我們有必要把這個觀念跟國人做個說明啦不要大家對於因為其實這個就是民意代表當久了你大概就遇到很多問題啦其實我們很常被問這個問題啦就是說"},{"start":17520.421,"end":17546.182,"text":"為什麼醫學中心的藥好像就比澎湖好那我通常都會跟他說不會啦就是一般來講不管是原廠 學民他的療效應該都是跟委員補充說川普總統美國川普總統提告提到說要增加那個進口的藥的藥價的那個不是 關稅要增加他也是針對所謂的原廠藥"},{"start":17547.583,"end":17563.044,"text":"他也是要扶植他自己國內的學民藥所以他只針對原廠藥去提高那個關稅所以道理是一樣的就是原廠藥應該價格要下降那個有學民藥出來了不應該還是在專利期這麼高對 那他"},{"start":17565.226,"end":17580.736,"text":"有學名要出來他還可以這麼高可能是很多觀念造成的要不然有相同療效的東西出來理論上他不應該這樣子部長既然直接講到川普那我也直接問一下就是說其實藥品"},{"start":17582.808,"end":17599.024,"text":"是比戰略物資更重要因為它本身也是戰略物資而且它是不管軍民都必須要用的那我們國內川普他是用關稅來保障學民藥的製作我們國內有沒有相關的"},{"start":17605.19,"end":17627.359,"text":"我們的做法上是因為所有的藥品健保是最大的買方所以在價格上我們對於國產的學民藥那麼在合價上面如果他是專利期剛過前幾個來就鼓勵趕快有學民藥在台灣製造的我們前兩張我們給的價格跟他跟原廠藥一樣"},{"start":17628.899,"end":17648.337,"text":"我們原廠藥一旦過了專利期大概有五年的時間慢慢調藥價但是如果在這個五年時間有台灣的學名藥跟他一樣我們就給他一樣的價格來鼓勵那第二個呢就是如果你這個是台灣的學名藥同時有做臨床試驗來證明他的療效相等"},{"start":17649.69,"end":17676.321,"text":"本來不一定要但是你做這個事情我們也給你加價10%價格比較高那另外如果你這個這一組的藥裡面學名藥的品項低於三個以下的我們那一年也不給你調藥價不砍藥價來鼓勵大家來供藥讓他韌性可以好一點那甚至呢還可以來提彈性提高他的藥價所以當然我們也做了這些"},{"start":17678.002,"end":17701.182,"text":"甚至於我的看法就是說扶植國內的廠商其實台灣有的時候就是大街也怕圖利要不然其實國內的藥品的相關廠商其實應該要給必要的資源就給啦"},{"start":17702.143,"end":17716.043,"text":"因為這個國內不自己扶植自己的藥廠然後萬一有就是等於你的脖子被其他的國家掐住這個對於台灣"},{"start":17718.106,"end":17747.226,"text":"跟委員報我們最多的時候在我們實施Peace GMP前大概國內的藥廠大概400多家現在實施Peace GMP已經到100多家了所以留下來的這個都是有品質的製藥廠所以進口人給予多方面的協助啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝委員你要跟我問一下國安辦主任嗎國安辦主任麻煩一下"},{"start":17747.908,"end":17759.478,"text":"主任好主任我大概問一下因為時間的關係我還是想要因為我們設立食安辦公室"},{"start":17767.421,"end":17793.729,"text":"本身就表示在宣示政府對於人民的食品安全有多重視那看起來就是這一次整個從先不要講前端就從你們知情到稽查到存封的速度都太慢了這個第一點第二點就是我問一個問題就是說你們"},{"start":17798.715,"end":17826.747,"text":"以後要怎麼防止非關注化學物質進入食品廠目前有沒有什麼想法好 應該這樣講講大方向就好了假如已經列入關注化學物質都會納管不是現在就是還沒有納入關注化學物質對可是他就是明明不應該在食品廠的東西對"},{"start":17828.539,"end":17845.001,"text":"所以有兩個方法我們會去檢討說這一些的項目適不適合納進去因為最早我們的顧慮就是說有一些這一些的化學品是有當成10天在用的那會讓"},{"start":17846.423,"end":17868.055,"text":"民眾會覺得說那怎麼會這些是毒化物然後是可以遲的會誤會所以我們未來會用關注化學物質去溝通假如它是沒有定在關注化學物質裡面它運作的紀錄會不夠我們就要靠地形的集合"},{"start":17868.996,"end":17883.994,"text":"去看它進來的這一些非實天的化學品的管理它的庫存 它的使用紀錄我們去強化我們在實安叫做三專管理專人 專櫃跟專測它每領一瓶出來使用"},{"start":17884.774,"end":17907.311,"text":"多少應該都要寫記錄那我們就要強化這一些管理他買進來的非實天的化學品所有都應該去列管那用這樣的一個方法強化管理因為他如果對不肖的黑心的業者他硬要做壞事不讓我們查那我們就"},{"start":17908.484,"end":17931.053,"text":"得要靠其他的方法去讓它浮出來從蘇丹紅到這一次的事件都是非關注化學的物質假如說每個業者都很有良心也不需要設立食安辦所以我因為時間的關係我今天不大想已經沒有辦法跟你"},{"start":17932.113,"end":17952.447,"text":"溝通很多啦不過我覺得我去找委員我覺得現在沒有納入非關注的部分你們要怎麼去查查這個你們要好好的想一想然後人力不足的部分我是覺得"},{"start":17954.108,"end":17972.532,"text":"食藥署那邊好像已經有增加了24個名額也還沒有用 要進出補足啦好 謝謝主任 謝謝主席好 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瓊英 報告四項一立法院各委員會組織法第三條制式規定立法院各委員會自召集委員二人由各委員會委員於每會期互選產生二 宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉的名冊選舉四項 選舉立法院第十一屆第四會期本會召集委員一立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第五條規定"},{"start":1840.782,"end":1859.676,"text":"召集委員之選舉以吳敬明單計法票選之但經各該委員會全體委員或經各黨團及位參加黨團之該委員會委員之書面同意亦得以推選方式行之主席宣告推選楊委員瓊英及陳委員亭飛二人為本院第十一屆第四會及本會召集委員散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1863.448,"end":1875.367,"text":"谢谢因为我们同仁还没有到现场所以我们等到我们的同仁到现场之后我们再来确定那我们先进行我们报告事项"},{"start":1878.294,"end":1899.236,"text":"邀請農業部部長 經濟部部長 原住民組委員會首長 國家通訊委員會首長行政院公共工程委員會首長 行政院主計總署首長 內政部首長 經濟部首長 交通部首長 環境部首長 文化部首長 勞動部首長及衛生福利部首長就丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建情形進行報告並被質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1902.134,"end":1917.179,"text":"因為我們今天人數比較多因為我們是針對丹納斯颱風我們對於所有風災重建之後的一個狀況要請各部會來做一個報告所以人數比較多我待會我就"},{"start":1917.959,"end":1946.865,"text":"介绍我们的部长主要这个部长次长然后所带领的所有的同仁然后其他同仁我就不予以介绍那我们也拜托说待会我们也会请农业部经济部然后内政部交通部来做报告那我们农业部跟经济部我们都报告十分钟那内政部交通部就五分钟我们希望说大家以简略的状况报告现在整个"},{"start":1947.465,"end":1976.247,"text":"但那是台风所造成我们的影响那我们现在灾后附近的状况因为我们现在有特别条例那我们有特别预算那是不是都到位了那是不是让人民有感我相信这是今天我们会这个办理这个专案报告最主要的用意所以再拜托我们所有各部会就以这几项的重点来做报告我们介绍的是"},{"start":1977.989,"end":1991.706,"text":"農業部 我們陳俊記部長跟我們所有農業部的同仁 謝謝還有經濟部 我們鞏明欽部長還有我們所有的同仁我們原住民委員會副主委還有我們所有的同仁們 謝謝"},{"start":1993.922,"end":2017.772,"text":"我們的國家通訊委員會代理主任委員陳重樹陳代理主委還有公共工程委員會我們副主委李怡德李副主委還有我們的主計總處副主計長陳慧娟陳副主計長內政部政務次長董建宏董次長我們教育部政務次長張料萬堅次長"},{"start":2022.383,"end":2049.875,"text":"还有我们交通部政务次长陈彦博陈次长环境部政务次长谢燕如谢次长然后这个文化部我们的文化资产局局长陈继明陈局长劳动部常务次长陈明仁陈长次我们卫福部政务次长林静怡谢谢林正次"},{"start":2051.189,"end":2079.038,"text":"然後我們所有的同仁我想我們現在就開始這個進行我們本日專題報告排定丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復建重建情形案那我們現在就先請農業部陳俊記部長報告主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早"},{"start":2080.049,"end":2094.95,"text":"那今天奉邀列席大院經濟委員會就丹納斯颱風級0728豪雨災厭復原重建的一個情形做專案報告並被質詢以下緊究本部的業務的最新的一個質詢情形向各位委員報告"},{"start":2096.86,"end":2119.995,"text":"今年度的丹納斯颱風除了丹納斯颱風以外那後續的包括07 08 07 28的大豪雨以及微怕颱風 陽雨颱風 乃至到花架災颱風其實今年的天災其實它的頻度比往年都高而且都是集中在大概7月到8月之間"},{"start":2120.996,"end":2139.463,"text":"那造成了整個南部及東南部等地區淹水以及相關的建物電力通訊嚴重受創那影響的範圍涵蓋了中南部還有花東多個縣市地區為了加速整個的一個重建各地區的一個受災那在9月12號"},{"start":2142.048,"end":2162.724,"text":"中央政府公布了但那是颱風0728災後復原重建的一個特別條例特別預算那其中本部編列的203.14億那並在10月8號公告的農業執行但那是颱風及0728豪雨災後復原的一個重建辦法那接下來我想跟各位說明的是"},{"start":2163.784,"end":2184.721,"text":"農業部在這樣的一個經費支持下我們在天災的第一時間其實結合了既有的機制並擴大了整個資源的投入那加強農業的相關的一個復原重建那基本上是以原來的天然災害救助加上一個專案的補助那同時提供必要的金融支持所以"},{"start":2185.181,"end":2192.89,"text":"第一個部分我們主動的公告整個天然災害救助的趨向 區域及品項並簡化相關的程序"},{"start":2195.799,"end":2224.543,"text":"主動公告的部分我們幾乎每一天就是召開香港的專家會議然後確認哪些品項是受到嚴重的災損然後就不由地方政府組成提報就由中央來主動提報那同時由於但那次颱風跟0708 0728他相當接近所以我們也明定了農民在同時受到這種連續性災損的時候可以免重複提出申請而且各鄉鎮公所或"},{"start":2225.283,"end":2236.006,"text":"作戰所給予合併審理受損的一個相關的一個情形那這樣的話可以加速整個公所在執行憲刊跟統計的時候能夠加速"},{"start":2236.977,"end":2255.314,"text":"那第二個部分是更重要的是除了天然災救助以外那因為受損嚴重所以我們第一時間也提供了擴大了一個專案的一個輔導措施那這樣的輔導措施大概分為幾個面向第一個面向就是整個金融的協助的措施那金融協助措施包括了"},{"start":2256.434,"end":2279.15,"text":"這些農業天然災害第一貸款與農民組織及農企業天然災害復耕的貸款那貸款我們延長為一年免息這個也是滿感謝我們的委員特別是昭偉針對這樣的一個免息的年限從原來的半年延長到一年那同時放寬部分的貸款項目額度以及它的期限跟寬緩期"},{"start":2280.211,"end":2295.489,"text":"那並針對行政院公告受災區的一般性的貸款那一般性的貸款本金可以延展六個月到五年的一個免息那既有的專案農貸則本金延展一年那第二個部分是在農糧類的一個專案輔導"},{"start":2298.112,"end":2316.549,"text":"那農糧類的專案輔導包括從供糧倉庫到相關的溫網式的重建以及修繕肥料倉庫那還有水稻育苗等周邊的相關的設備那在漁業的部分最主要是在養殖區停電期間所發生的這些"},{"start":2318.492,"end":2335.162,"text":"發電機相關的費用 那水災養殖必須維生的設備及相關的主機的部分 蓄勤的部分最主要是在情緒堆肥廠及化製廠以及相關的蓄設的一個結構跟畜牧設施的一些補助那整個的一個"},{"start":2335.962,"end":2353.635,"text":"第三個部分是整個有關公共工程的基礎建設的部分那這次颱風也造成了非常多的農水路還有邊坡的一個崩塌所以農業部一方面跟地方政府合作來改善邊坡穩定及路面的一個排水同時辦理農路及相關的林道的一個復建"},{"start":2354.366,"end":2376.822,"text":"那第三個部分我想跟各位報告我們有這樣子的一個補助那陳如剛才召會所說的我們到底現在目前執行的狀況是如何那這邊就提出相關的一個說明在農業天然災救助現金的部分在特別預算裡面編列的71.23億那到了9月底為止公所出刊合格的金額大概是51.5億那縣府已經提報了34.6億整個的一個合撥"},{"start":2383.686,"end":2404.536,"text":"統計起來現在已經達到87.2那我們會持續的跟地方政府保持聯絡 跟公使保持聯絡 儘快的把這些勘災已經完成的 儘速透過縣府轉我們農 相關的當 我們農業部的農糧署或是漁業署來合撥經費那第二個部分是低利貸款的一個補貼的部分 這個經費編列的3.89億那到9月底為止"},{"start":2408.258,"end":2429.976,"text":"相關的這些受惠的戶數大概將近4950戶那一般展延的利息補貼整個金額達到1.63億那第三個部分是有關於農業農產業的重建輔導措施那這個部分我們編列了46.86億那在46.86億裡面大概分為幾個部分第一個部分是農糧產業的一個輔導措施"},{"start":2432.638,"end":2457.833,"text":"編列的28.50億那這些部分包括了溫暖室的部分還有整個糧倉的一個修繕的部分還有相關農業資產的部分那同時在水稻育苗的復育的部分我們也提供了相關的大概965萬的一個協助那漁產業的部分整個經費是編列10.28億那這個部分到了9月底"},{"start":2458.573,"end":2478.442,"text":"的時候我們大概執行了大概3.87億那同時也協助相關的死魚的一個清運那在漁港漁船及養殖設施的一個修繕補助的部分那大概已經核定了大概是1億元最主要是修復有關於漁閥漁船的一個主腹肌或弦外肌的一個一個毀損"},{"start":2479.502,"end":2491.72,"text":"那在續勤專業的貸款的部分整個經費是編列8.08億那目前已經受理了192件的畜牧及養殖設施的設備更新整個額度大概是8000將近8800萬那"},{"start":2494.844,"end":2521.193,"text":"最後一個部分是在有關於農業公共基礎建設的一個搶修復建那這個部分大概編列了80.52億那包括了農路林道及農業的設施的部分現在目前整個的初刊的結果大概可以執行大概44.07億那在山坡地及整治及土石流防治的部分我們編列了25.72億那到目前為止各地方政府本身已經提報了相關的一個計畫"},{"start":2522.273,"end":2549.746,"text":"那後來後續我們會針對相關的計畫的一個一個審定那整個提報的經費大概是21.56億那針對馬太安這次的花家採風造成馬太安的一個驗射物的監測那我們在這邊編了1.02億那這個1.02億其實就是在佈建相關的這個馬太安上游的這個水位計然後還有做編撥的相關的一個預警的一個相關的一個設備的配置那"},{"start":2550.286,"end":2575.056,"text":"整個後續的馬太安的因應作為那也跟各位報告馬太安現在目前它是一個穩定的溢流那現在的水位大概是155萬噸那已經是原來的水量的大概是1.7左右那相對的我們要在達到4個條件之後我們才會把現在的這些紅色警戒往下降那第二個部分是有關於馬太安部分的這些農業天然災害工"},{"start":2575.916,"end":2594.169,"text":"救助的部分那我們也公告了花蓮縣的受損的所有的也是用主動公告的方式來做相關的處理那同時也比照丹納斯颱風給予農民專案的一個協助那在這邊我也跟各位委員跟所有女士先生報告整個丹納斯颱風"},{"start":2595.129,"end":2621.039,"text":"及後續一連串的這些災害已經嚴重的影響了我們農業產業那農業部秉持的行政院院長跟總統的指示重觀重塑重檢的一個原則展開各項的一個復原工作全力協助我們的農民重建家園恢復農業的一個生產並建立農業災害應變與防防災的一個機制那以上報告敬請各位女士各位委員女士先生指教以上"},{"start":2622.993,"end":2642.378,"text":"謝謝部長後我們現在請經濟部公民信部長謝謝主席各位委員大家好今天承蒙貴委員會邀請就丹納斯颱風"},{"start":2643.499,"end":2658.984,"text":"以及728豪雨灾后复原重建的情形进行专案报告以上向各位委员说明经济部相关的协助跟推动的进度那今年7月丹拉斯台风以及728豪雨重创的云嘉南高平还有"},{"start":2659.344,"end":2674.993,"text":"部分的滑動地區造成房屋的毀損電力自來水道路設施受害嚴重那為了加速災後重建以及擴大資源的投入經濟部在特別條例之下編列了187.4億元的經費"},{"start":2677.995,"end":2696.561,"text":"全力来推动电力水利设施的防灾任性产业跟商业的复原以及金融协助等四大面向的工作那以上简要的说明现在的情况有关于在复原灾害复原协助的状况在电力跟供应方面"},{"start":2697.441,"end":2716.863,"text":"那在7月19號的時候基本上我們已經全部復電了那728豪宇也是在8月5號也全面供電那第二個就是有關於這個就是基期電網的防災韌性的部分那我們現在也在進行所謂的感線遷移以及設備的汰換"},{"start":2718.405,"end":2735.863,"text":"那另外也事实上迅速推动包括防灾维电网还有移动式的电源确保整个关键设施不断电那在供水方面呢大纳斯台风也造成了7万多户的停水那台水公司已经在7月7号以后呢全部覆水了"},{"start":2737.69,"end":2755.669,"text":"在水利治理还有防汛的方面本部也增购了抽水机还有防水的挡板并且推动系统性的治理还有水利设置来复现工程第四项是有关于在产业跟商业的复原方面在制造业的部分"},{"start":2756.311,"end":2782.798,"text":"那我们现在有补助它的修缮跟场域的修缮每一家大概上限是20万元那现在已经核准了328件补助的金额是5400万元那第二个是有关于商家的部分就是小商家店家的这个补助的部分每一家最多是1万元那现在已经授予的4295件申请的金额是4295万"},{"start":2785.205,"end":2814.405,"text":"那同时呢我们也补助这些店家如果他购买这个一级能效的空调冰箱等等也可以补助五万元那第三项是有关于节能跟动力的设备的补助的部分那我们也同步的希望这个商家可以引进S口啊还有高效能的空压机啊等等的情况那现在已经受理了大概两百三十五家次那补助的金额大概是六千两百万元"},{"start":2815.846,"end":2844.287,"text":"另外本部也成功的媒合民间企业捐赠的物资大概有6500件左右那另外台南公司也按照配合这个减免成租户的租金那现在已经受理了185件那减免的金额大概是1400万元有关于金融协助的部分本部秉持着雨天扩大撑伞的这个原则来全力协助受灾户"},{"start":2845.328,"end":2868.506,"text":"那主要有几项第一个就是企业复工的贷款针对中小企业的利息呢利息我们是全面补贴大概一年的时间现在已经受理了141件那贷款的金额是18.3亿元另外原来贷款利息也可以减免那这个部分是287件减免的利息大概是3800万元"},{"start":2870.347,"end":2889.654,"text":"另外本部也成立了馬上辦的服務中心提供諮詢的服務也成立了行動服務團巡迴災區遍及25個區公所跟5個產業園區來協助另外對於就貸展延的部分也可以最長展延一年那利息的減免也各案來協處"},{"start":2891.295,"end":2914.69,"text":"那另外有關於針對花蓮馬太安燕塞湖的這個災害的部分行政院已經公佈納入特別條例了那本部也比照了先前的這個災區同步啟動所有的紓困跟重建的措施那另外本部也協調了這個台水台電主動減免的水費跟電費提供了各項的補助作業"},{"start":2916.366,"end":2938.399,"text":"就节语来讲 丹拉斯台风还有728的豪雨以及花莲灾情对我国的社会经济都造成很大的挑战经济部将秉持着重宽重速重减以及雨天扩大撑伞的原则加速的各项的复原重建的工作以上报告 敬请各位也不吝指教"},{"start":2940.89,"end":2945.974,"text":"謝謝部長報告我們現在請內政部次長董建宏董事長報告謝謝"},{"start":2952.833,"end":2971.15,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生 大家好Dennis颱風為百年來首次由西部嘉義登陸的颱風所以造成相當程度的迫害本部國土署在第一時間及跨縣市進行積聚的調度增救災工作本部劉部長也多次前往台南及嘉義關心民宅的恢復進度以及慰問員工"},{"start":2972.811,"end":2989.501,"text":"所以災害也由本部國土署署長多次陪同院長以及在地的委員親自嘉義及台南進行開展以瞭解災損的狀況並且提出相關的專案計畫協助災民進行家學園的復原本部依照行政院在114年7月15日當時颱風災害修建"},{"start":2994.244,"end":3018.312,"text":"復原重建條例的協調會議以及同日院長在臺南開栽的指示秉持重寬 重塑 重減的原則研擬Dennis颱風慰問金救助專案以及上供津貼 民宅修繕 災屋拆除及煤盒補助等專案計畫呈報行政院經行政院核定之後提供災區屋頂及外牆回損達一定規模以上之住宅發放慰問金"},{"start":3019.292,"end":3024.16,"text":"以利益受災戶清理家園、故宮及修繕所需協助民眾儘速復原家園"},{"start":3025.868,"end":3048.259,"text":"家園復原未住基金專案補助的對象為金丹利斯颱風公告公告為受災區的住宅受損戶有居住室死者那屋頂及外牆損壞面積未達20平方米者弱勢戶發給1.5萬元一般戶發給1萬元達20平方米以上且未達100平方公尺者發給5萬元"},{"start":3050,"end":3071.213,"text":"面積合達100平方米以上者 發給10萬元無居住逝世者 未住經減半發給所需經費共需25億經費將由中央特別統籌款的稅款支應那為加速發放慰問金 簡化發放方式只要檢據受災照片及申請書由地方政府審核通過後 給予發放截至114年10月7日子已經受理了67,573件合定數59,868件"},{"start":3078.157,"end":3104.83,"text":"同時考量物料的狀況以及人工的狀況對於工班的調度及資源上做更有效的支援行政院也於114年的7月25日核定Dennis風災家園復原上工津貼補助基金專案那共計編列了3.6億凡是投入災區進行的施工廠商我們案件記酬發與相關的津貼每棟最高補助3萬元的上工津貼以鼓勵廠商協助災區的重建"},{"start":3105.45,"end":3132.672,"text":"那截至114年10月7日子我們總共受理了330億件那為了協助災民進行災屋的修繕及拆除工作行政院也於114年的9月22日核定單位重災災民復原民宅修繕災屋拆除及煤核補助金專案編列特別經費21.4億提供災屋修繕或補助拆除或請相關的協助措施在弱勢補助或協助措施的部分"},{"start":3133.913,"end":3148.351,"text":"提供政府代為修繕或拆除的協助那費用也由政府全額的負擔那自行修繕者則按照未進金補助的標準完工標準最高10萬元自行故宮拆除者補助金2萬元"},{"start":3149.232,"end":3174.382,"text":"那針對一般戶提供政府媒合向廠商協助在9月2號簽約者補助修繕違款2萬元9月3號至10月6號簽約者補助修繕違款1.5萬元委由政府代差者 拆除費用由政府全額負擔自行故供於10月底拆除者補助2萬元截至114年10月7日子總計受理拆除及修繕的補助件數達627件"},{"start":3177.947,"end":3206.249,"text":"那最後災害災屋的修繕所造成的衍生的營建廢棄土也由受災的縣市負責清理及清運及處理以降低災民的負擔那針對暫時臨時處置場所的廢棄營建土的處理及去化本部也提報相關的營建廢棄去化計畫並且在140年的8月9號韓文同意台南市政府匡列3.5億114年9月30號韓文同意嘉義縣政府匡列1億及嘉義市政府匡列0.2億"},{"start":3208.05,"end":3220.168,"text":"本部與各部會以及地方政府將會通力合作務求受災民眾能夠緊速回歸正常以上報告進行指教謝謝謝謝次長報告我們請交通部陳彥博次長"},{"start":3231.972,"end":3251.885,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生今天應邀來貴委會就丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後復建重建情形進行報告那現在請就本次的報告來做以下的一個說明首先就交通部主管公路的災害復原重建情形"},{"start":3252.425,"end":3268.187,"text":"本部主管的公路相關的災後復建的工程均已納入當代司颱風及728豪雨災害復原重建的特別條例來辦理那預估所需的經費大概38.62億那分年辦理要改善"},{"start":3268.567,"end":3283.192,"text":"除了台29線民生橋預計於116年訊息完成外其餘工程均可在今年年底前完成第二個部分是本部對地方政府提報的觀光及公路系統的復建工程"},{"start":3283.832,"end":3305.348,"text":"案件辦理的情形首先就地方政府所提的觀光工程的部分各地方政府既有苗栗縣等8縣市共提報了48件相關的經費大概3.83億交通部觀光署均已完成現刊的一個作業定於10月14號辦理案件的一個審查"},{"start":3308.75,"end":3333.016,"text":"至於有關各地方政府的公路系統的工程方面也是一樣苗栗縣等11個縣市提報總共的案件有484件相關的經費有33.59億本部的公路局均已完成現勘審查並於114年的10月9日辦理相關的審查的一個作業最後交通部與丹拉斯颱風及"},{"start":3334.296,"end":3356.201,"text":"把豪雨沉灾肆虐后立即投入交通设施的一个灾损抢修的工作并拟定相关的复原计划对于地方政府所提报的重建工程亦积极地协助现勘及排定审查的作业我们期望在中央与地方共同让地方政府早日复原家园以上报告"},{"start":3358.973,"end":3376.511,"text":"謝謝陳彥博市長 謝謝謝謝我們所有行政團隊在這一次我們丹納斯颱風災後的整個過程的協助我們所有各部會確實第一時間到了地方然後給予最多的資源那我們現在希望是"},{"start":3377.352,"end":3395.183,"text":"台南嘉義這一段時間但那次颱風還需要有一些重建的時間跟經費再拜託大家盡力協助而且要讓人民有感這是我們今天其實這個專案會議當中最重要的一個部分"},{"start":3395.803,"end":3424.956,"text":"那我们本次会议各部会所提的书面报告请委员自行参阅并刊登公报那现在进行询答委员咨询前依照网历做以下宣告每位委员发言时间本会委员五分钟必要时得延长两分钟非本会委员四分钟上午十点三十分截止发言登记我们现在请登记第一位的邱毅英委员发言"},{"start":3432.108,"end":3441.198,"text":"好謝謝主席因為時間很短所以我就直接提問來我請經濟部跟農業部部長好不好兩位部長我們請兩位部長我也好"},{"start":3447.382,"end":3475.137,"text":"兩位部長好 部長我想請教一下 直接問因為丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨其實對於南台灣是重創不過我剛剛看了很多部會的報告包括交通部等等其他的報告其實幾乎台灣大部分的縣市都納進去了我想請教一下針對這樣的一個風災所造成的災害我們的復原進度目前大概是多少"},{"start":3475.777,"end":3504.947,"text":"那行政院在10月9號又通過了一個修正案要追加250億要把花蓮的這一次的這個水災艷澀湖溢流的這樣的一個災害把它納進去我其實比較關心的就是說這個追加了250億要怎麼花要怎麼編列原先的600億的預算會不會被排擠到來兩位部長誰可以來回答"},{"start":3506.465,"end":3524.194,"text":"包委員我先說明一下現在這個進度進行的狀況只要是那個復原包括水啊電啊那個我們就盡快已經都復原了但是有一些比較中長期的比如說產業界他們可能有一些受創然後我們補助他那個持續在進行當中現在有"},{"start":3524.694,"end":3551.908,"text":"也大概有好几百个案件每一个项目都有还有贷款那个也持续在进行当中那这个部分是产业的部分你比较难立竿见影马上可以看得到但是我们也有这个巡回辅导但是你们你是巡回辅导还是说我们是主动去协助你是等他来被动等他来申报还是我们主动去协助我们有成立一个行动服务团会那个25个这个区公所还有5个"},{"start":3552.475,"end":3581.449,"text":"这个产业园区我们会去巡回所以是主动去协助他们嘛对对对好来那个农业部陈部长您可不可以回答一下我跟委员很简单的说明就是刚才您说的进度大概分为几个面向第一个面向是现金救助的部分那现金救助的部分现在各公所提报初刊大概都结束了那现在就是说初刊完以后他们有一个复刊那现在整个平均起来大概他们已经合拨率大概60那有的县市像高雄已经到9成了"},{"start":3581.849,"end":3602.118,"text":"但是有些縣市比較少因為它量比較量體比較大一點這是第一個部分第二個部分是基礎工程的部分像邊坡還有農水路的部分那相關的部分在那個特別預算裡面編的76.82億那這個76.82億也是當初公共工程委員會針對各縣市提報上來的"},{"start":3602.478,"end":3625.263,"text":"那這個部分各地方政府已經提計畫了那我們會大概也審的出證已經確定了所以盡快的會開始去執行這個部分所以部長您講的76.82億是在水土保持在農水路跟邊坡的水土保持的部分比如說我們去看過的像六龜啦甲仙啦等等的這些土石流邊坡的部分是25.72億然後相關的農水路的部分大概45.58億"},{"start":3629.244,"end":3649.315,"text":"好那我再進一步請教你們現在追加了250億裡面的艷澀湖整治要花107億請問這艷澀湖你們現在打算怎麼整治過去一直告訴大家這個艷澀湖因為沒卡路騰上去其實它是在處理上是有一定的困難度的那現在出框了這個107億請問是要怎麼做"},{"start":3651.776,"end":3680.868,"text":"我想農業部這個部分我們整個花架在颱風造成的這個部分我們大概編了59億左右那其中有一部分天然災害的是用原來天然災害救助基金所以實際會傾徵的部分大概是將近30幾億到40億左右並沒有像剛才那個那個委員所提到的但是整個馬太安從上游的壩體到下游的部分那現在上游的壩體現在非常不穩定雖然說他的"},{"start":3682.185,"end":3693.876,"text":"那個溢流是相當穩定的但是壩體不穩定邊坡也容易崩塌這個責任分工是在你農業部還是在水利署能夠做協助因為治水的這件事情"},{"start":3695.427,"end":3715.53,"text":"應該不是你農業部的主責吧不是你的專業槍下吧但是下游的這些堤防加高跟那個水道的疏洪的部分是由水利署來負責我們是跨部會這樣合作的所以你們有組一個專家學者來共同來我們有跨部會的專業小組那這個專業小組的召集人是誰會不會是李鴻元教授"},{"start":3718.035,"end":3737.843,"text":"應該不是應該不是啊 對所以你們有另外再組一個小組對 因為跨部會本身然後我們有所謂的專家小組那專家小組像台大的團隊還有楊交大的團隊跟陳大團隊都會進來當作一個專家的諮詢的部分但是整個的決議的部分還是由我們的跨部會小組來處理"},{"start":3738.783,"end":3759.433,"text":"好 這個陳部長我想剛剛跟您提問的這些部分因為其實在這一次的這個花蓮的這個馬太安溪的溢流的事件其實相當嚴重土石流警戒的警訊發布很多人不當做一回事像我們南部是收到我們大家都會"},{"start":3760.852,"end":3769.062,"text":"盡量這幾回輸啦我們大家就會開始注意然後開始準備要疏散要撤離那現在你們的土石流警戒的發布"},{"start":3770.834,"end":3798.521,"text":"如果過去這段時間大家並不引以為意的話我覺得應該要再重新的制定一個標準然後這個執行面上面能夠怎麼樣做 做到什麼樣的程度我覺得政府單位應該要及時掌控包括這個拱部長水利單位對於河流 河川的這個流速對河川的掌控"},{"start":3800.244,"end":3819.669,"text":"河道包括水位的高低的這些掌控程度我覺得應該要借用現在最新的這個高科技的監控系統把它做一個重新的整治這個應該要放在你們的特別條例的預算裡頭去做一個重新的盤點這一點我希望這兩個部會都能夠做得到好不好"},{"start":3820.643,"end":3836.851,"text":"我簡單跟委員報告就是您剛才講的疏散的部分像昨天在花蓮的那個前進協調所總協調官他已經強調了整個的疏散撤離計畫中央的部費都已經做了協助然後現在整帶花蓮縣政府縣長"},{"start":3838.012,"end":3857.931,"text":"決定了以後就會做相關的這些演練的部分因為只有 唯有演練才能夠讓居民更早的遇到相關的警戒發布以後能夠迅速的做一個疏散作為這是第一個部分如果他們不懂的話可以請他們來請教高雄市啦可能不需要去請教到陳市長可以來問我就可以了啦"},{"start":3859.172,"end":3883.766,"text":"這個疏散撤離我們其實都有一套很完整的SOP而且非常的精準掌控撤離的這些民眾到底去了哪裡住在哪裡然後這些保全戶的範圍之內多久要巡邏一次這些SOP如果不懂的話其實是可以來請教本席那部長我覺得你們也可以把我們過去在高雄做的這一些很精準的這些撤離動作"},{"start":3886.936,"end":3904.675,"text":"這個弄一份報告給指揮官弄一份報告給花蓮縣政府這個還要等他們的縣長批我看大概這個點也拉不下來我覺得就強制去做這樣的要求好不好好了解其實我本來有一個問題要問那個可以嗎好來兩位部長請回那個能源署能源署今天有沒有來"},{"start":3915.862,"end":3931.24,"text":"不好意思主席我兩分鐘很快來 農業署你們這個防災維電網跟移動式電網的這個計畫上一次被要求要提書面報告所以現在重新提出那我看到在特別預算底下你們這個只編列了8億元"},{"start":3932.661,"end":3949.559,"text":"來做防災微電網你覺得這個錢夠嗎不夠我們希望能更多但是因為目前只有8億所以我們未來會把它編入那你目前只有8億你預計要做在哪裡因為我看你寫的報告是要求地方政府提報場域然後由台電去技術支援"},{"start":3950.48,"end":3976.873,"text":"有沒有可能能源署可以自己主動的比如說在山區的地方高雄的桃園 納馬下 茂林地區山區每次受創嚴重的時候其實路斷掉 橋斷掉你的救災 你的台電的工程車其實是進不去的所以你的這個韌性防災的微電網能不能主動去盤查然後在山區我們就立刻來把這個韌性的電網去把它做起來"},{"start":3977.313,"end":3993.96,"text":"是可以的但是我們一方面也要跟地方政府那個偏遠的鄉鎮公所來配合因為他們最知道他們未來的人要撤到哪裡去那基本上我們第一線我們會先尊重他那如果他不提的話那我們會替他來安排跟做建議"},{"start":3995.482,"end":4023.581,"text":"這個署長我想你們的這個防災微電網我認為其實還有很多的這個精進的空間包括是不是能夠跟一些這個做微電網的這一些業者做儲能設備的這一些業者去做一些會談去設計更適合在當地的比如說可移動式的儲電系統那屋頂的太陽能是不是家家戶戶都能夠建置一個一定的程度瓦數的"},{"start":4024.662,"end":4044.209,"text":"能夠提供一定電力度數的這些太陽能板讓這一些其實山上的居民他不一定是要被撤離走但是他只要遇到電線桿斷掉停電的時候他整個電力供給是出問題的時候我覺得移動式的這些儲能系統應該會在那個時候發揮相當大的功能我們可以照這個來規劃是 謝謝"},{"start":4051.838,"end":4075.411,"text":"我們請陳廷飛委員質詢 拜託議員謝謝謝謝主席我們先請經濟部農業部還有環境部來請經濟部農業部還有環境部委員好"},{"start":4081.045,"end":4101.287,"text":"我們部長還有次長好我想今天我手上有一份陳情書這是最近因為丹納斯颱風之後我們烏山頭水庫的光電板再一次被提醒而且再一次被變成是一個很重要討論的焦點"},{"start":4102.828,"end":4122.158,"text":"那烏山頭水庫的光電板是111年就已經完成的可是為什麼在最近又被提出了就因為丹納斯颱風我們看到所有的光電板因為被風吹了然後很多都破爛不堪大家擔心"},{"start":4123.078,"end":4142.217,"text":"如果在烏山頭水庫上面的光電板也變成這個樣子怎麼辦還好這一次丹納斯颱風烏山頭水庫的光電板沒有造成嚴重的狀況可是他們擔心下一次呢好還有第二個因為有"},{"start":4144.042,"end":4158.72,"text":"有人故意要去提醒說光電板到底怎麼清洗我相信這在過去漁電工生的時候我們也討論過就是說到底清洗光電板是清潔劑還是清水"},{"start":4160.353,"end":4184.945,"text":"但是我們當時候就已經有要求在訂合約的時候一定是不能用清潔劑所以在我們的合約裡面也有訂了不能用清潔劑所以為什麼有這樣的一個聲音跟風向造成這一個禮拜你知道我到地方跑行程所有的人都拉著我說拜託我們都支持民進黨的"},{"start":4186.286,"end":4204.321,"text":"我們的水庫上面怎麼可以放光電板這會造成我們的灌溉水源我們的飲水源會有問題這很可怕你知道嗎在這一個禮拜那個風向"},{"start":4205.714,"end":4230.441,"text":"我們的處理的速度實在是太慢所以我手上拿的是地方人民的陳情書他們陳情的部分我今天把它做成那個讓簡單的文字讓大家看到他們所說的烏山洪水庫它有它民生國安的特殊重要性如果污染了那麼我們怎麼辦"},{"start":4232.014,"end":4249.641,"text":"而且他有灌溉整個雲嘉南平原15萬畝的糧田北至虎尾南至台南安平是台灣最大的穀倉如果這個部分沒有辦法成為民生跟我們國防的最大後盾怎麼辦再來"},{"start":4251.022,"end":4275.938,"text":"我們看到在整個供應水的部分也是依照自來水法跟飲用水管理條例相關的部分都應該禁止所有的興建跟設置行為因為水源保護的重要性再來就是我們是江南農業的命脈民生用水的基石環境生態的屏障"},{"start":4276.858,"end":4296.167,"text":"所以烏山頭水庫設了我們的光電板大家的內心無法承受但是我必須強調這是111年就已經設置好的因為這一次丹納斯颱風再次被檢討 再次被提醒好 它也是"},{"start":4297.427,"end":4323.662,"text":"我們的文化遺產這個文化遺產我們所看到的是烏山頭水庫它是八田羽衣它所留下的重要資產所以這幾點讓六甲的鄉親讓關田的鄉親甚至現在因為他們提出這些聲明變成全部從北至南全部都涵蓋了"},{"start":4324.884,"end":4351.604,"text":"所以部長兩位部長還有我們的環境部的次長這個嚴重性知識體大絕對不是告而已當然今天沒有用化學藥劑而被說有用化學藥劑引發社會的恐慌這個要告業者要告是業者的事可是我們政府要給人民什麼樣的信心指數"},{"start":4353.178,"end":4379.715,"text":"這個很重要啊我們每次都偏廢了然後變成一個風向搞到最後政府無法承擔兩位部長跟市長我要拜託大家我們是不是能夠來做一個宣示因為基本上現在在水庫要設光電板如果我們的政府不同意地方政府不同意其實他是沒有辦法設立的"},{"start":4380.635,"end":4399.915,"text":"包括我們在曾文水庫還有我們的烏山頭水庫的二期都是一樣烏山頭水庫二期因為現在台南市政府不同意然後曾文水庫因為嘉義縣政府不同意所以這個全部停擺"},{"start":4401.167,"end":4425.876,"text":"所以我們是不是做一個宣示如果水庫現在已經引發大家這麼多的爭議我們不論白河水庫在台南白河水庫 烏山頭水庫 曾文水庫 南化水庫我們絕對不會核准任何一個光電執照是不是可以 部長來 保定是 巴委員我想這樣因為"},{"start":4428.905,"end":4450.823,"text":"就是现在民众有一些余力余力有两个嘛它稳不稳固嘛那第二个就是这个清洗的时候的方式嘛那我想既有的部分清洗的部分我们会加强监督部长我告诉你你依照我这个部分后面我们会谈到白河乌山头这是台南白河乌山头真文难化"},{"start":4452.144,"end":4476.124,"text":"因為基本上現在沒有一個縣市政府敢准地方政府沒有核准我們就不可能所以我們就宣示我們為什麼都不敢講宣示說如果在地方政府都不同意的前提之下我們不可能核准任何一張的我們在水庫上面的光電執照地方政府不同意的話"},{"start":4477.185,"end":4505.353,"text":"對不對 好 我們就定了這一個嘛所以地方政府 由地方政府把關各縣市政府在我們的水庫上面包括因為真文有嘉義縣跟台南市嘛所以我們在整個的氛圍當中白河 烏山頭 真文 南化只要各縣市政府不同意我們絕對不會核准任何一張在水庫上方的光電執照OK吧"},{"start":4506.013,"end":4532.315,"text":"好第二個部分就是說這是農業部的農業部因為烏山頭的光電板是在111年完成依照租賃合約的時間是9年11個月這我對你們的合約說出來所以租賃9年11個月我在這裡要求期間到不要再續租了不要再續租了可以嗎"},{"start":4534.195,"end":4548.443,"text":"可以嗎 我想我們我們會 等一下我們如果沒有同意你也沒辦法續租啦對 地方政府如果沒有同意的話我們中央絕對不會壓著地方政府同意對嘛 所以你們農田水利署就不能再續租這個宣示性很重要"},{"start":4549.503,"end":4566.563,"text":"我們不要這樣子好像畏畏縮縮的要講就講大聲所以我們如果在9年11個月也就是121年4月23日時間到了 租任合約到了我們農田水利署 允諾不再續租"},{"start":4569.118,"end":4594.394,"text":"這個我們拜託農業部這個要堅持然後再來我們在這段時間合約規定清洗是禁用清潔劑的這裡面合約有寫得非常清楚也就是部長剛所說的我們是禁用清潔劑的好這個部分要怎麼控管才能讓民眾安心我們的這個能源署或是我們"},{"start":4595.971,"end":4623.601,"text":"我可不可以先說明一下我們就因為灌溉用水的部分其實我們農業部包括我們的那個管理處烏山頭管理處的部分我們大概一年檢測了五次然後在不同點位在哪裡你這個要公開啊烏山頭然後這個所有的檢測在環境部的網站都有公告它一定是用清水的因為大家已經對於烏山頭我們的水資檢測站也會有對 你要把它公開嘛管理處的網站也會有好"},{"start":4624.381,"end":4638.781,"text":"那這個網站公開之後那有人說好像真的設了111年設的時候我們的水質有改變有這樣的話嗎有這樣的狀況嗎沒有這樣的沒有這回事情沒有這回事你把它公開啊資訊公開啊"},{"start":4641.499,"end":4662.774,"text":"你要跟大家 沒有部長你資訊那麼多大家不知道哪一個是否我們烏山頭的哪一個是否我們灌溉水源的哪一個是否我們的水池的特別事情已經發生了你慢慢半拍把資料調出來有 我們都有監測"},{"start":4665.032,"end":4693.594,"text":"這些錯假訊息用清潔劑洗其實清潔劑洗含有磷的時候在相關的檢測是檢測得出來的所以我們相關的檢測都是安全的而且是沒有用到清潔劑因為含有磷的部分所以這個部分我們會處理那你就要把這一塊單獨出來在現在大家紛紛擾擾的時候把它獨立出來做一個非常重要的一個資訊透明再來那我們要怎麼控管水質那我們經濟部"},{"start":4695.297,"end":4723.015,"text":"我們也是這樣進到進水場之前我們都會檢測啊需要檢測是OK的對 沒有資訊資訊在哪裡你們都說有啊我們有在檢測啊問題資訊在哪裡我拜託在今天之後你們兩個部會把這兩個獨立出來讓大家看清楚我們的水質是怎麼檢測的好再來因為我們一年要洗兩次"},{"start":4723.816,"end":4726.009,"text":"清洗兩次 這個誰在控管"},{"start":4727.099,"end":4754.053,"text":"清洗兩次這個光電板用清水清洗的光電板由我們管理處在控管好那拜託我們在清洗的時候我們邀請現場關心的民眾甚至里長去看嘛怎麼清洗的嘛也可以這個樣子把它透明化是不是可以可以把它透明化這樣大家都沒有疑慮了再來我要拜託因為現在還有一個疑問說"},{"start":4756.434,"end":4779.021,"text":"這個綠能公司是我們台汽電的孫公司是我們的孫公司所以如果現在民眾這麼樣的反彈我們是不是可以跟他溝通可以做什麼樣的處置來我們能源署台電台電是不是可以台電是不是可以"},{"start":4781.114,"end":4801.156,"text":"可以我可以要求台電請台電公司來幫忙那另外這一個剛才講他對個人對他公司名譽的毀損那麼他們在禮拜五已經去警局做登記然後今天法院上班之後他們就會提出那是公司的問題我一直強調公司他自己要維護他的名譽他自己要去維護"},{"start":4801.877,"end":4821.267,"text":"可是我們的政府我們要怎麼讓人民安心這是兩軌兩件事可是我們往往都把它併在一起我們是兩件事所以我說的我們要怎麼去溝通我們台氣店因為既然是孫公司嘛台氣店怎麼做很重要讓人民怎麼安心"},{"start":4821.687,"end":4835.46,"text":"是 就剛才委員講的清洗 剛才農業部說他們會來檢查那我們也會透過公司這邊要求他要清洗的時候要找地方的村里長跟民眾大家一起來看那避免未來這種謠言再發生"},{"start":4837.594,"end":4852.499,"text":"重點就是水庫上方不能再準任何的光電板然後我們9年11個月時間到了我們農水署不要再租給他們我相信這樣民眾就會比較安心謝謝"},{"start":4866.51,"end":4874.221,"text":"好 我們先確定議事錄 不好意思對於上次的會議事錄有錯誤沒有的話 我們議事錄確定 謝謝我們現在請張綺開委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":4907.072,"end":4934.373,"text":"請請經濟部工部長跟農業部陳部長我們請工部長陳部長謝謝委員好專委部長好我們臺灣是小小多山的國家 現在變成小小多光電板的國家了山也光電板海也光電板 餘溫也光電板 赤鴻池也光電板現在連水庫都是光電板 剛剛主席"},{"start":4935.256,"end":4958.238,"text":"陳廷輝一直在問 烏山頭水庫的這個事情我要先問一個光電開發處理人者 郭部長你是第一次到經濟委員會來備詢嗎第一次 以前在國發會的時候 常常 國發會辦來喔用經濟部部長第一次啦 郭部長啊 郭志輝在你這個位置啊 被問了非常多次"},{"start":4959.426,"end":4981.588,"text":"光電開發的這個弊案或者是爭議那時候我們確定了一個原則就是要居民同意才可以放行 郭志輝清楚地講案場開發一定要跟民眾溝通取得同意以後經濟部才會考慮放行我今天要問郭規"},{"start":4983.966,"end":5011.383,"text":"貢匯水嗎還是會有改變會倒退路嗎有確定這個原則嗎一定要居民同意才會放行嗎程序上本來就要跟居民溝通然後地方政府同意以後我們才會審查所以說第一關就會碰到居民跟地方政府所以它變成先決條件所以具體的話居民要溝通第二個沒有同意不會放行嗎對OK 這個原則先定下來郭志威是這個原則貢部長沒有倒退路也是這個原則大家看一下"},{"start":5012.605,"end":5036.998,"text":"大地莊園你看這多可憐這個是本席跟陳庭輝陳委好幾個委員都問過了園圈圈前的地方是住戶有500多戶旁邊那個化變成紅色的全部包圍了這個整個兩個這個莊園這怎麼過日子呢所以後來那時候決定把它暫停下來現在今天我要提一個新的案子請部長注意一下"},{"start":5040.031,"end":5066.308,"text":"在北門 北門區 大家有沒有來北門區有這麼多的這個住戶結果出現了三個嚴重的問題第一個 居民說說明會不通知相關的利害人這程序就有問題了嘛 對不對我定第二個 開發的面積還不斷增加壓縮了居民生活空間跟生活的品質第三個更嚴重因為利益非常龐大"},{"start":5067.509,"end":5095.482,"text":"有黑道都進來了所以部長這個案子有符合剛剛講的那個原則對不對說明會沒有通知利害人這是不是應該也要符合剛剛的先暫停是不是我要了解一下因為個案的話如果符合剛剛就要停下來對不對就是居民溝通是第一個階段嘛然後地方政府同意嘛那我們再來審查他連第一階段都出問題啦說明會連當事人利害關係人都沒有去啊"},{"start":5097.16,"end":5110.295,"text":"這個居民清清楚楚講程序有問題 符合剛剛第一個所以應該暫停 你先去了解好不好如果符合這個北門區這個就要暫停下來第二個我們來談光電板廢棄損害的這個問題"},{"start":5113.514,"end":5140.881,"text":"7月7號 但那是風災之後全台灣33個暗藏13萬5000片的光電板損害了有很多啊 放在台塘土地上面那時候崔少哲來我這邊檢舉 你看污染的土地上面的是要環部蓋起來下面連蓋都沒有我今天沒有要問進度下面那個是舊的啦對 我現在問你目前處理現在已經處理完了"},{"start":5141.758,"end":5157.76,"text":"清走了嗎對 清走了清走了嗎清走了 對還是暫時在那裡清走了確定喔我等一下就要去看喔因為你當初你說要進你本來要放多久三個月是不是本來跟他"},{"start":5159.557,"end":5180.442,"text":"應該21號之前沒關係我等一下會去看一下進度你確定有清楚沒有的話我們就進一步再去推這個好不好好那因為你們很清楚的不管是經濟部跟環境部都說已經清理完畢了嘛我要一份資料就這13萬片你們後來整個管理的跟清除的情況好不好我為什麼這樣問來我給你看一個吹哨者這個畫面"},{"start":5184.176,"end":5205.501,"text":"這個是一個很大的光電的暗藏7月22號拍下來的9月22號9月22號發生風災已經兩個月過了兩個半月了也就是你們所謂的清晚了這是吹哨者來提供的我現在要拿你給我的東西我要對照"},{"start":5206.633,"end":5230.246,"text":"我現在很清楚的表達吹哨者拍下來到9月22號上面的這個很大的一個光電案上面的蠢害的沒有處理完下面的都堆成這樣你看左邊這個也是右邊也是我要把它堆你把那個東西給我來追清楚好接下來我們來談陳廷輝剛才提的水庫的烏山頭水庫的這個設置的這個問題我想要很明確的問農業部部長"},{"start":5235.353,"end":5263.536,"text":"你剛講說你們有做了檢測對不對保定 陳部長沒錯你們每個月或者你說這個檢測裡面我要問一個最重要的有做塑化劑跟塑膠微粒的這個測驗嗎有做塑化劑的我請我們同仁回答一下好不好因為這個細節的部分報告委員我們塑化劑的檢測我們是持續有在做"},{"start":5264.994,"end":5290.721,"text":"我先給你看為什麼這麼重要這個是7月份啊公共電視的很重要的一個報導他說塑化劑啊特別是那個塑化微粒塑化微粒可能就沒有檢測了吧塑化微粒無所不在他跟失智症啊還有心血管疾病的這個病患業者體內暴露的濃度比較高所以這個塑膠微粒是有潛在的健康風險的"},{"start":5292.526,"end":5296.804,"text":"所以請農業部不是只有做塑化劑好不好做一下塑膠微粒的這個檢測"},{"start":5298.827,"end":5321.353,"text":"你在水泥地 微粒並沒有說話劑微粒的部分因為這個部分我回去再跟我們同仁檢討一下看怎麼樣的方式去處理因為微粒的部分不只是所有可能塑膠製品有可能最後會有一些微粒的產生但是他沒有辦法有做相關的這些指標性的連結這個我回去我再跟同仁討論一下我們烏山頭11.5公頃的光電板"},{"start":5324.755,"end":5345.995,"text":"它下面一定是一個浮具跟這個浮台上面才有光電板嘛對不對浸在水裡這個塑膠微粒的產生一定是必然的然後我給你看的是公式喔應該有公信力吧對不對請了專家學者他跟失智症跟心臟病這個血管暴露這整個濃度是有關係的所以要檢測清楚好不好現在就開始納入檢測"},{"start":5346.738,"end":5358.712,"text":"不過我想還要是跟委員說明清楚因為我們是針對浚露的灌溉的系統我們去做相關的這些水質會不會對作物所影響那相關您剛才講的這個等一下等一下等一下吳三頭"},{"start":5362.401,"end":5385.743,"text":"都沒有吃嗎沒有 我說我農業部負責的我農業部負責的部分是這個部位我們進水的話都會 原水就會檢測那趕快做塑化劑 特別是塑膠微粒的這個檢測從現在就要開始做喔因為它對疾病是有影響的第二個 要另外再做一個演練我給大家看一下這個新聞這是日本三倉水庫定名的"},{"start":5387.216,"end":5403.673,"text":"太陽能光電結果在2019年發生了火災因為有風災進來整個那個光電板一列為三整個那個架台整個都突起亂堆了冒出了這個火花那時候他們的消防車還沒辦法救"},{"start":5406.656,"end":5421.602,"text":"所以你現在烏山頭那邊你要去做一個演練跟測試跟這次那個N45一樣不要說又管不到了喔好不好這趕快做好不好時間到了所以我非常明確的我現在要幾個東西都非常明確都非常明確"},{"start":5422.793,"end":5440.487,"text":"我剛剛講的資料請在三天內都送到我這邊來好不好特別是剛剛講的那個非常重要塑膠微粒的這個檢測要開始做然後整個那個消防演練都要做另外是剛剛陳廷輝講的也很重要我跟大家講像我們嘉義現在很多那個很多嘉義市的市民在擔心我們藍毯上面會不會出現光電板"},{"start":5445.032,"end":5469.241,"text":"因為你烏山頭蓋了嘛 你現在二期嘛 藍潭大家也在擔心嘛所以對於任何任何水庫要蓋光電板都要非常小心 好不好 民眾都已經在抗議了好不好 不要隨便清洗嘉義的藍潭蓋光電板 一樣的包括烏山頭還有二期跟三期喔 還有其他的這個水庫 不要輕易的清洗這個水庫蓋光電板 而且剛剛講的簡直要趕快做 好 謝謝"},{"start":5471.777,"end":5497.146,"text":"謝謝齊凱委員我想那個剛剛說檢測部分從農業的部分灌溉還有我們飲水的部分我們要把所有的資料公開特別獨立出來公開針對這一次大家對於烏山頭水庫的這個異議我覺得我們更透明的資料才能讓人民更安心那我們現在請曾振琴委員 子薰謝謝"},{"start":5507.383,"end":5522.811,"text":"主席好我想先請教一下經濟部長我們請經濟部長趙委員好部長好因為這次主席安排了丹納斯颱風及728豪雨災後"},{"start":5525.649,"end":5544.162,"text":"那個復原跟重建的一個專報那我想說這次當然是颱風當中的時候其實大家最關心的狀態就是光電相關的一個問題那剛剛很多委員也都問到了這件事情那我想說先請教部長說那個建築物它有耐震的一個要求我想知道"},{"start":5545.183,"end":5564.922,"text":"那建築物也有耐風的一個要求那我想請教一下部長你知不知道我們的光電的一個建物的時候它有沒有耐風的一個要求我知道有應該有你覺得有是全部都有還是部分有它好像有分歧不一樣可不可以詳細說明一下"},{"start":5566.547,"end":5595.549,"text":"二委員好那麼目前太陽光電的系統的耐震跟耐風是依照建築法的規定比照當地的這個耐震跟耐風的標準那麼經過這次丹納斯颱風之後那我們發現如果依那個標準還是會有回損所以我們現在把它提高到我們已經修法把它提高到要耐17級風也就是最高級的全部都要耐17級就是原本獨立的光電的設施要耐17級屋頂型的有沒有要求要耐17級"},{"start":5596.65,"end":5615.977,"text":"屋頂型的要耐17級那地面型的那麼除了這種一般的規定之外我們還要他依這個災防法要訂定所謂搶救計畫就是說當他遇到風災或其他災害的時候他要依照災防法去提報他的緊急應變跟搶救計畫"},{"start":5618.778,"end":5641.864,"text":"所以說我們接下來所有的光電數相關的設施包括獨立型的跟屋頂型的全部都要求耐風17級是這樣子的情況嗎目前耐風17級是對屋頂型的因為屋頂它在比較高的地方風會比較大而且如果它散落那地面型的呢地面型的我們是要求它提高它符合這個"},{"start":5643.314,"end":5669.289,"text":"就是我們建築物的管制規定以外那另外它還要依災方法提出它的災防搶救計畫有沒有具體的標準 耐風要到幾級才可以依照目前那個所謂耐風的強度是依照地域的不同通常會有14級到15級 16級但是沒有地面型的沒有規定到17級的OK 好 理解固定型的就強制規範"},{"start":5669.949,"end":5684.777,"text":"因為這一次的那個當時颱風來之後很多光電設施都出了很多的一個狀態所以我們是對於整個光電板後續的一個維護跟管理的問題其實我們非常非常的擔心那我在這邊也要再請教一個問題就是我們這次當時颱風的時候對於離岸風電的風機有沒有造成影響"},{"start":5691.526,"end":5713.826,"text":"完全沒有完全沒有影響對 而且發電量很好還持續嗎 颱風來那我這邊我要特別再講一件事情因為我們從那個山之山之後我們其實國產化就沒有要求那針對於整個我們水下機裝的一個部分我們目前怎麼樣子去維護我們機裝的一個安全"},{"start":5716.616,"end":5730.258,"text":"不會被侵蝕是用犧牲羊脊的方式還是用什麼樣子的方式目前有很多啦犧牲羊脊是其中的一個方法但是目前這個所謂離岸風電的水下集裝跟他的設計"},{"start":5731.072,"end":5753.718,"text":"都要經過國際上的檢驗通過我們現在除了說用西森陽疾我們還有用其他什麼樣的方式可不可以請雙方這邊做一個說明因為它有的是陰疾防止有陽疾防止也有陰疾防止那也另外除了這個之外那它還有透過一些表面的防止的所以這些防止的部分的時候是不是會造成鋁離子的一個釋出"},{"start":5754.851,"end":5777.102,"text":"這個我們都有做監測有長期在監測嗎這個是就有要求離岸風電的業者他要去做監測而且他要把監測的結果公告在他們公司的網站上OK 針對這個部分我想到時候請市長這邊再給我更詳細的狀態因為我們看到整個歐洲他們一個情況就是一個水下機裝的一個那個25年來"},{"start":5780.023,"end":5800.132,"text":"大概會釋放出10噸的鋁你知道嗎非常非常的驚人那我們接下來的時候預計我們的離岸風電大概總共會有幾支目前我們已經完工的有在運轉的有440幾座那接下來要持續開放的咧接下來大概"},{"start":5801.007,"end":5819.188,"text":"未來我們還剛才講的我們有3.1 3.2那麼未來我們正在規劃3.3那當然未來的情形可能要看廠商開標我們開標得標之後的狀況OK 針對這個部分我們對於水下基礎的防蝕的部分是本席有特別的關注"},{"start":5819.548,"end":5845.291,"text":"所以你剛剛提到說要業者他們自己去監控然後在他們的公司網站上面提出報告的時候我想我們可能會需要更進一步的一個要求那詳細的一個相關的規定的時候我想你們之後再到本辦公室來做一個說明好 謝謝那針對那個當然是颱風這邊的時候我想請教一下內政部的內政部這邊正是在國務黨可以先請回 謝謝"},{"start":5851.127,"end":5873.491,"text":"市長因為我們整個災防法的時候主管單位是內政部我們在這一次的丹納斯颱風之後的時候我們看到了幾個問題第一個狀態的時候是當我們民眾要提供救災物資的時候還有地方政府他們要需求的時候沒有一個非常清楚的一個平台這個狀態的時候在7月份丹納斯颱風發生的時候我們已經看到了"},{"start":5877.152,"end":5897.051,"text":"9月份花蓮這邊光復這邊的時候又碰到更嚴重的一個情況針對這個部分的時候我們內政部這邊是不是有一個很具體的一個狀態針對整個資訊的一個救災平台的需求跟供給是不是有一個可以做一個長期的一個建置"},{"start":5899.333,"end":5916.519,"text":"跟委員報告在整個災害發生的當下是由中央災害防治中心指揮中心來指揮那災害發生之後相關的救災跟重建是由中央災害指揮中心以及地方的前進指揮所在指揮"},{"start":5917.259,"end":5935.586,"text":"那根據全責的狀況基本上所有的救災行為的第一時間是由地方政府他必須負起相關的責任中央只能作為一個相關的協助的角色這是在災防法以及地方制度法裡面明確規範也就是說地方政府必須負起相關的責任或是由中央區部來處理所以相關的物資因為災防法的主管其實在內政部這邊所以我們希望這邊能夠"},{"start":5942.748,"end":5970.334,"text":"固定有一個固定的平台的一個建制包括志工的一個投入當中各方面的狀態不會出現太多的一個亂象跟委員報告在我們整個的花蓮的救災的狀況是在前進指揮所設立之後東部辦公室也受行政院指示立即成立相關的物資協調中心跟所有的物資的調處那麼在紀政委進駐前進指揮所之後紀政委也立刻發揮相關的指揮"},{"start":5971.014,"end":5990.446,"text":"就是因為紀政委進場之後才開始穩定下來可是這是在紀政委進駐之前的時候是非常的混亂的所以我們才希望說內政部既然是一個代表法的一個主管單位的時候我們希望能夠把這樣子的一個平台先建置起來而且不是針對一個特定的一個"},{"start":5991.446,"end":6019.034,"text":"使用而是一個變成是一個長期性的狀態如果發生災情的時候地方政府可以透過這個平台去跟外界籌集資源那麼很多的NGO的單位很多的民間單位他們如果有資源要提供的時候也可以透過這樣的一個平台那麼我們希望內政部這邊去研究一下這部分是不是能夠把它建立起來否則目前這兩次七月份跟九月份我們看到都是民間走在政府前面先把這個平台做起來好不好"},{"start":6019.874,"end":6038.15,"text":"好謝謝委員指教我還是要跟委員做一個說明就是說相關民內政部應該負責是處於在中央在防御中心的相關的應變跟指揮那麼地方政府必須負起在第一線的相關的權責所以相關所以我現在要做的不只是這狀態我想是一個溝通的平台嗎一個溝通的平台是對你們來說都這麼困難嗎"},{"start":6040.992,"end":6068.159,"text":"你們主管這樣一個平台都這麼困難嗎在這裡沒有要推我沒有在這邊覺得說這責任是地方要去承擔還是中央去承擔我只覺得一個中央地方共同的一個救災的平台建立起來有這麼困難嗎這個我們會回去研究但是要跟政府要跟委員報告就是說相關的整個的物資的運作其實地方政府在我們委員會這邊的時候我們很希望是怎麼樣解決問題而不是在怎麼樣子藉由任何的機會在推責任好不好"},{"start":6069.019,"end":6073.91,"text":"我們會回去商量做完整的研究謝謝 謝謝曾委員資訊 謝謝我們現在請鄭天才委員資訊"},{"start":6098.524,"end":6125.279,"text":"邵委還有委員我們請農業部部長還有經濟部部長我們請兩位部長 謝謝委員好鄭委員好好 大家辛苦了今天談這個主要是談花蓮風災的這些案子"},{"start":6126.277,"end":6151.823,"text":"今天沒有要究責但是我們要去要事實的就憑事實來檢討才能夠精進才能夠精進防範還可以做一個防範看農業部的報告你的報告提到是從今年的7月下旬7月下旬然後花蓮分數7月26號空刊確認"},{"start":6155.776,"end":6179.691,"text":"然後提到這個7月26號應變小組然後提到這個7月26號之後的然後請那個陽明交大8月11號然後成功大學8月20號這時間差我們也必須要去了解好我們來看部長"},{"start":6182.014,"end":6195.544,"text":"这个马太安西晏赛府这个报告单这个报告单是林业署所做的报告这里面就提到马太安西之流"},{"start":6196.59,"end":6224.603,"text":"自109年起 支流上游裸露面積逐年擴大且其與主流馬鞍溪匯流處有時有細水 有時無細水細水面積約0.25公頃113年康瑞颱風或支流誘案尤其下游側開始有急步崩塌 再持續後退這個時間我們就先要去檢討"},{"start":6225.72,"end":6251.779,"text":"也就是為了因應未來都還會有台灣是一個常常會有這種菸塞福的地方過去的經驗尤其以現在的經驗未來怎麼樣發現的時候怎麼樣就要把它處理越早處理就越可以解決問題這個部分沒有要究責我們是要整個要把它弄清楚"},{"start":6253.31,"end":6271.278,"text":"你的報告如果不清楚的時候因為很多東西不是你負責的不是林業部可以負責的不是林業署可以負責的是相關部會要共同的要去負責要去承擔要去推動要去執行好你的報告裡面提到7月26號林業"},{"start":6273.971,"end":6286.963,"text":"属花莲分属花莲分属召开应变小组会议当然你只能花莲分属只能通知这底下的包括像比如说水利属的第九河川分属对不对"},{"start":6288.424,"end":6314.489,"text":"它有限 資源有限它能做什麼呢它只能有加固 加高提防的能力嗎沒有啊 它要有經費啊所以必須要層級要提高啊這個就是我們要去檢討的地方8月6號也是一樣花蓮分署召開防災分工協調會8月12號才提升到"},{"start":6315.472,"end":6331.26,"text":"林業署資商也不足就應該要農業部甚至行政院已經8月12號囉對不對這個都是我們要去檢討改進的地方我們看這個8月20號林業署第二次專案諮詢會議8月28號"},{"start":6338.396,"end":6358.714,"text":"提到花蓮分署召開河道疏峻只是疏峻而已所以它不能是一個怎麼樣去拉高層級怎麼樣去因應所以未來應該要訂一個遇到怨賽府的時候要怎麼樣處理要有這樣的一個新的計畫"},{"start":6365,"end":6388.57,"text":"8月27號才提升到行政院還責成你們農業部成立專案小組所以這個都是需要去檢討改進的地方接下來農業部的部分當然房子不是你負責我要讓你知道的是說農田我們現在談農田農田被淹埋"},{"start":6390.119,"end":6419.197,"text":"农田农田被淹埋抱歉这个跳到了这个农田被淹埋得很严重那现在这个农田要怎么去处理好这个是原来的原来这么这么美丽的一个地方这么漂亮的一个农田也非常好好"},{"start":6419.83,"end":6447.541,"text":"这是灾前你看灾后就是这样非常高比这个比房子一楼一样高的那个农田全部被淹满这个农机很多农机没有证明呢你说要有农机证明你说没有农机证明呢我买二手的就没有农机证明这个都要放宽所以"},{"start":6448.571,"end":6461.52,"text":"農田的部分就是要挖掘這個土石挖掘土石 清潤土石還要怎麼樣有的必要的時候還要換土部長可以嗎"},{"start":6463.474,"end":6479.658,"text":"我們先針對農田我想很簡單的跟委員報告就是有關於農田淹沒的部分那我們大概分為兩個層次處理一個層次是有一些光屋鄉有些農田沒有被土淹沒但是它的灌溉渠道受阻了"},{"start":6479.938,"end":6494.313,"text":"那這個部分我們會加快的用沼井的方式做緊急供水那第二個部分土石淹沒的地方有的大概幾十公分大概十公分有的甚至五六公尺所以相對的我們提出了三個方案這三個方案包括"},{"start":6495.325,"end":6523.157,"text":"有一個原地重劃或是農地重劃或者是把土砂全部移除這三個方案我們後續會跟我們鄉當地所有居民做一些座談然後達到一個最大的共識那我們秉持兩個原則就是整個的後面的農田的再生的一個富裕的部分一定是讓農民最有利的而且讓農業的經營是最永續的換土要挖土這個一定要協助農民沒辦法"},{"start":6524.413,"end":6550.694,"text":"對 這個我們會來做剛才講的農機只要能夠證明確實是他的而且被淹埋了農機你是剛剛提到的灌溉這個農機的部分我們也已經調整了親自看了你們那個現在在抽在挖那個要再挖在抽水那個部分農民都認為沒有辦法 因為不足"},{"start":6551.448,"end":6575.262,"text":"所以灌溉用水這個部分我們事後可以再討論我們請經濟部還有水利署這個部分今年的8月13號所提的附帶決議是本席提出來透過國民黨團寫出來的所以這個部分針對水利署的部分當然現在你們都積極地在做了"},{"start":6579.879,"end":6609.451,"text":"积极短期的10月5号已经完成加高要非常谢谢水利署的同仁但是如果当初我们就讲7月26号7月26号之后如果当初有这样做的话也可以防范这些土石洪水冲到这个社区部落包括农田所以这个部分都是我们要去怎么样去加强因应这个是像这样的一个数据当然"},{"start":6610.25,"end":6618.521,"text":"要积极的来做另外就是说我也亲自去跟嘴里鼠的同仁去下游"},{"start":6621.147,"end":6650.136,"text":"下游直接沖刷的阿多摩東富村還有三星三星這個當初就沒有沒有注意到這個三星這個部分也堤防也破了到時候計算的時候要務必要把它計算到裡面所以這個部分包括很多的一個需要去積極處理的部分要請經濟部要請水利署繼續的辛苦好不好謝謝"},{"start":6652.016,"end":6674.982,"text":"謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員謝謝我們的部長謝謝我們現在請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席楊瓊英發言人邀請部長哪位部長經濟部長經濟部長謝謝"},{"start":6683.41,"end":6710.309,"text":"部長好本席一再強調提升災後韌性它不能只是說而不做那麼進度我們應該要好好的來討論來精進那這一次你們所提出的這個專報呢引起了可以說是這一次的天災讓全民很憂心那也包括了政府的動作慢半拍民眾的屋頂遭毀損"},{"start":6711.61,"end":6738.199,"text":"断卵 断电这些救援要等很久所以可以说是我们要改进的地方还很多本期在之前发生的时候就跟院长也跟您讨论过也提醒过我们必须要好好的努力来精进来检讨而不是只有用嘴巴喊而不是用文宣去宣它就能够提升所以我们希望"},{"start":6739.319,"end":6762.738,"text":"這樣子慘痛的經驗能夠讓我們好好的來討論讓未來更好本期要看到這一次的風災好雨不只是網路方面很多的媒體都明白的提出也告訴我們有很多許多的不足的地方那所以我也希望政府要好好的接受這樣子的一個"},{"start":6763.599,"end":6789.487,"text":"指教那同时不要只有讳莫如生那我希望的应该是虚心接受才能够真正的改进所以本席首先要请教救灾的基层人员非常非常的辛苦我们一定要全力的来支持这些基层工作人员不管他是加班抢休等等但是本席说了灾前的预估人力"},{"start":6790.387,"end":6814.738,"text":"以及災後實際人力的一個配備到底我們怎麼做我們怎麼做這個就是應該是主管應該做好的而沒有做好所以本席在這邊要請教未來因應災害以及分區緊急應變能量是否足夠我們檢討的結果要怎麼樣改進請做說明"},{"start":6817.133,"end":6841.791,"text":"经济部主管的部分主要还是尽量的赶快电的部分赶快抢修完毕还有水的部分尽量赶快那这个也就是基层同仁包括台水公司跟台电公司他们第一时间当这个停电的时候他们就出动那我们也预估也从其他的部分调派很多的这些工作人员来共同进了灾区来做一些协助"},{"start":6842.675,"end":6865.401,"text":"主要抢修的部分就是主要是水跟电的部分就进行来说答案给民众的也就网络媒体所批评的我们是还有很多不足的地方所以如果依照你目前的回答你根本没有检讨跟进进方案的本性我希望你要注意听也要好好的回答我们"},{"start":6866.221,"end":6889.695,"text":"希望在基層的第一線非常的辛苦我們要怎麼樣讓他們能夠得到最好的後援而且你在整個系統裡頭分布的人力配比要能夠夠就誠如你剛剛所說的我們希望在有重大災害的時候你應該建立跨部會的即時災情報告系統"},{"start":6890.695,"end":6910.693,"text":"那麼建立一正式的聯繫窗口民眾才不會找沒人啊他才不會不知道立即即時的一個訊息資源也才不會不知道跑到哪裡去不管在電力 抽水政府不能無頭蒼蠅似的你應該要有救災的SOP流程提升"},{"start":6911.474,"end":6936.568,"text":"你的整個協調的能力所以本席要請教針對於中央部會在資訊的一個整合跟這一次就在應急不及的時候你們到現在為止你的進行方案是什麼請做說明因為災害發生的時候本來中央就有應變中心那當然在台北但是我們在台南有設立了前進部長請你針對本席的回答"},{"start":6937.168,"end":6963.797,"text":"本來就在台北本席告訴你我們碰到重大的災難的時候你們要怎樣去調整你的腳步請你書面資料給本席那針對於我們的店的部分呢這是非常的重要因為影響到醫療 民生還有我們的整個安養機構這些都這一次受到很大的衝擊在這樣影響之下我大概看到你們的報告"},{"start":6964.377,"end":6979.455,"text":"微型电网的系统那么本席也了解一下根据你台电的资料是要告诉我们微型电网呢微电网简单来说它就是一个区域性的概念它要将整个的电网来结合它的发电"},{"start":6979.955,"end":7002.009,"text":"它的儲電 它的能源管控跟它的控電設備的系統就等於是一個小型的發電的一個整合中心那麼同時我們也看到就是說一旦停電那必須微電網進入它自主供電這時候微電網的網路就如同是一般是一個微型的供電系統"},{"start":7002.449,"end":7022.304,"text":"他可以自給自足供電將近72小時提供整個區內的用電的負載量那請問你們的計畫是如此嗎請做說明是的原則上是的那我們會先因為經費實在有限我們先選大概九個地方示範區域"},{"start":7023.464,"end":7051.381,"text":"九个区域来示范你们也请各县市去做盘点那本席要告诉你我台中有很多的偏远地区一旦停电他们没有办法立即来达到救援这些都是非常需要所以我的台中的像本席所说的这样的状态有没有在你们的范围本席强烈要求一定要纳入如果说他们去公所也好或是他们真的有这样的想法我们可以跟他来接架"},{"start":7051.781,"end":7072.114,"text":"台中必須要建構進來讓一些偏遠的沒有辦法及時救援到的都必須要做是不是如此那你們現在九個區塊在哪裡因為我們跟地方要合作的時候也要看它緊急的收容中心在哪裡那邊有沒有你們現在預估的九個區塊在哪裡請針對本席的問題提問"},{"start":7075.656,"end":7087.105,"text":"還在持續增加啦還在持續增加目前來講談好是9個但是還會持續增加9個區塊是什麼舉例你談好了你告訴本集嘛應該是比如說像這一次災害比較嚴重的比如說嘉義啊"},{"start":7087.947,"end":7110.916,"text":"或哪裡台南比較嚴重的地方但是我們也同意就是說如果有同意台中必須要有這樣的一個建構我也請你們相關單位一定要妥善因為這個對民眾民生來講是很重要的所以本席接下來要請教農業部跟部長在這裡最後一個議題"},{"start":7112.296,"end":7128.722,"text":"在台美談判的部分我們也看到部長您到了美國去採購但是我們要請問對於美豬產地的來源以及來機的檢驗方式都是被美國視為是貿易障礙那你會讓步嗎請教部長"},{"start":7131.804,"end":7154.314,"text":"我跟委員報告就是兩件事情就是我們去美國採購的東西都是台灣飼料生產所需的就是黃豆 玉米 小愛本集清楚 所以請教好 那相對的針對未來談判因為在持續進行那我們一定是確保糧食安全然後產業的永續發展跟我們確保我們農民的權益這三個前提之下我們持續在談判"},{"start":7155.174,"end":7180.569,"text":"談判那豬的部分像您這邊寫的豬的部分牛的部分我們相關的進口我們現在是符合現在的一個檢測的一個規範在執行美豬產地的來源來機的檢驗方式美方認為是貿易障礙這個絕對不能讓步本席告訴你第二個美牛的進口你會進一步開放甚至全面開放嗎我方的立場"},{"start":7181.397,"end":7196.684,"text":"我想我們現在目前整個談判還在進行但是我們針對確保糧食安全的部分我們一定就是因為談判還在進行所以本席告訴你一定不能讓步然後我們的稻米跟雞肉你會零關稅嗎"},{"start":7199.997,"end":7222.832,"text":"因為你只有告訴我們你會保障我們國內的產業但是如果零關稅一定會衝擊到所以我們一定要告訴政府要怎麼樣真正的保障我們的食安跟我們的本土的一個國產我跟委員報告道明是我們糧食安全非常重要的一個品項好就是因為非常重要所以一定要保障"},{"start":7226.629,"end":7244.133,"text":"針對我們的食安跟我們的國產絕對要得到最大的一個保障這是我們基本立場對不對了解好謝謝謝謝楊瓊瑜委員的諮詢謝謝謝謝我們請林戴華委員諮詢戴華委員諮詢完我們休息5分鐘謝謝我們有請經濟部"},{"start":7257.051,"end":7284.107,"text":"先暫時經濟部好 本席的諮詢重點是以人機無人機來強化救災建立平暫轉換的護國產業平時防災暫時支援從這一次其實無人機的運用是無遠弗屆那公務人員其實對新科技的理解應用想像其實是有限的我們就以這次花蓮為例有多少人力才可以撤離"},{"start":7284.907,"end":7304.826,"text":"無人機沒有所謂的交通時間無人機可以廣播無人機可以視察有哪些人民在屋頂上需要救援其實無人機整個掃一遍有多少人受困可以精準的任務派遣人力來救援而不是用車子去找人"},{"start":7305.807,"end":7321.457,"text":"時間就可以大大的節省提高救災的效率所以包括我們的關鍵基礎設施水電油我們一般平時的以無人機來做巡檢或者現在已經商業在運用的餐飲業旅館業甚至在機場"},{"start":7323.359,"end":7340.273,"text":"這個自動報道機其實都有無人送餐無人旅館還有這個自動報道機只要在裝上無人載具排了兩三百人我們的無人載具的這個自動報道機到現場都可以這樣的隨時的這個貼心的服務那如果在緊急狀態下全島"},{"start":7343.374,"end":7357.998,"text":"斷訊那無人機就可以全面的啟動發飛到這個平流層大概10距離我們地面10到50公里的高度通訊轉接基地站就可以來發揮所以本期也就針對這幾個議題全社會防衛的韌性應該徹底檢討"},{"start":7364.079,"end":7385.425,"text":"這個演習第一個我們爬出幾個事件從花蓮的馬太安的洪災感謝中央調度德儀結合軍民的力量調度物資與各縣市的機具讓產值超人不必孤軍奮戰一個月內也幫助了災民恢復正常生活第二個其中無人機扮演的重要角色從一開始的"},{"start":7386.245,"end":7401.023,"text":"煙色服的檢測到國金無人機的化學清消以及這個消防屬於無人機的空投物資衛福部的載運藥物展現了科技防災的雛形但是在今年"},{"start":7402.489,"end":7426.78,"text":"所以今天這個包括國防部我說我今天暫時幾個部會其實這是整個跨部會包括今年的城鎮任性演習包括全社會防衛的任性演習我們是看不到無人機的演習的也就是看不到軍方地方政府跟民間力量在無人機救災的合作導致今年的震災"},{"start":7428,"end":7448.085,"text":"地震風災水災除了花蓮在其他縣市都看不到中央如何運用無人機來救災好我談到我的高雄當然也看不到無人機今天7月底的時候高雄的六龜的南橫公路一家五口墜落三股報目前還有三個人失蹤其實就是為了一個"},{"start":7449.606,"end":7473.847,"text":"這是李姓一家帶女嬰就診那遇上了土石流所以其實像無人機結合遠距醫療能夠運送藥品與物資其實這個悲劇就不用產生好再看8月的桃園區高雄的桃園區的復興拉布蘭跟梅山三個里連日的好雨800人受困我們有當地的民意代表"},{"start":7474.468,"end":7490.189,"text":"用繩索拋送物資有居民冒險用摩托車載送在AI無人機發展當下部落的自救發生跟921當年的救災有什麼不同"},{"start":7490.549,"end":7515.405,"text":"沒有進步好到今年8月3號本席到高雄的美容高雄農場看災的時候發現到孕婦跟起身的病患急需醫療的資源我當下就要求設立醫療駐點的服務站如果無人機送藥機制能夠啟動就更可以降低醫療人員的負擔好那我們看民間無人機"},{"start":7516.085,"end":7545.054,"text":"政府的動作慢沒有一個無人機救災的整體思維的時候各界發起是如風起雲湧成大這個都有這個原住民的血統成大教授台邦他讚揚屏東台霧台鄉長巴正義這個首長涉水運送物資也認為首長涉險代表防災體系已經不足了政府在原鄉設置無人機救援體系"},{"start":7545.414,"end":7572.527,"text":"的機制讓部落面對極端氣候能夠自主救援再來這個也是有我們原住民學童的美和科大助理教授他今年3月投書他說這個無人機能在通訊中斷的時候成為空中的基地站將偏遠地區的災情及時傳出在我高雄市議會也提出了質詢在高雄偏鄉易受阻的區域與衛福部合作進行無人機"},{"start":7572.847,"end":7592.76,"text":"吸的演練讓科技就在不是口號包括我們自己在立法院李昆成李委員中嘉賓中委委員在今年的就這個月的二日的時候呢他們也倡議無人機的送藥記者會應該要放寬航空管的法律限制讓災區居民可以呢"},{"start":7593.34,"end":7616.275,"text":"申請無人機的送藥應該更快更便捷好現在無人機的政策有沒有跟得上科技發展呢重點還是官方的思維跟整備工作無人機可作為空中基地站提供災區的即時通訊那當然這個以花蓮的這個馬太安的洪災來講當地多數的基地台受損了"},{"start":7617.296,"end":7636.325,"text":"電力三天才恢復那包括我的丹納斯颱風在嘉南地區更超過一個禮拜才恢復電力跟通訊系統所以其實靠的都是人力但是如果政府跟民間合作的話建立災害發生的臨時通訊網提供災民與救難團隊取得資訊管道"},{"start":7638.326,"end":7660.636,"text":"第二個也要跟上的就是整合AI跟無人機空拍機回傳空拍的災害 勘災影像及時判斷災害的這個程度這邊有兩件事情我們都會怪總統這個當那是颱風啊你怎麼會去先看文旦呢沒有去看這個七股呢這個其實我們的朝委是感受很深的那其實不能怪總統"},{"start":7661.636,"end":7688.15,"text":"因為我們的這個空拍勘災的影像根本沒有建置也就沒有及時的系統讓總統知道哪裡是最嚴重所以導致先去看文旦而不是去看七股這個最嚴重的地方好那包括花蓮的馬太安政府也是一樣第一時間為人掌握整個破堤跟災區的嚴重的程度最嚴重的是佛祖街可是剛開始是什麼是在火車站"},{"start":7689.17,"end":7713.695,"text":"那反而是產值招人進去之後其實是發現到窩主罪才是最嚴重所以光是這個在空拍看災影像的即時災害的判斷這個其實都可以透過無人機的大範圍的空拍透過AI的比對原來的地貌就可以讓決策者先判別災害嚴重的程度決定資源投入的優先順序"},{"start":7715.049,"end":7730.892,"text":"好在這邊建立官民合作的黃金救災72小時官民合作的救災72小時我要點的就是的你們花了大把的錢建置的嘉義縣亞洲無人機研發中心這次是完全失敗"},{"start":7731.793,"end":7757.318,"text":"因為他受損了 基地受損了所以中央集中投入在這個嘉義縣的亞洲無人機 結果風災毫無作為所以只有靠民力 你們也沒有啟動民力軍力有限 民力無窮 中央在這次特別預算當中規劃與民間無人機業者建立防災合作機制納入緊急採購開口合約這可能是公共工程委員會"},{"start":7758.238,"end":7768.464,"text":"這個因為整個行政院院本部沒有派代表第二個檢討城鎮任性的演習跟全社會的防衛任性演習納入今年的風災洪災的經驗模擬無電"},{"start":7772.099,"end":7799.175,"text":"無通訊無交通的情景這本席的要求這本席的要求要現在開始針對城鎮韌性的演習這是針對國防部跟內政部你的城鎮韌性的演習跟防衛你要開始演練了無電無通訊無交通的情境你怎麼因應用無人載具用於災情的判斷通訊的建立物資投放災損的勘察等工作再者"},{"start":7800.356,"end":7815.876,"text":"檢討無人機的政策從被動消極的公佈進飛區轉向主動設置飛手的培訓考照的這個場域而且是要針對誰這個特別預算除了補助地方政府大專院校民間協會"},{"start":7817.738,"end":7832.536,"text":"這邊我講的是用特別預算今天是在講到特別預算你也要補助無人機的政策你要在人員的訓練單位地方政務大專院校民間協會你都要投入去做補助規劃什麼非手訓練地點"},{"start":7833.737,"end":7851.132,"text":"福島偏遠聚落跟區公所消防對消光人員取得無人機跟飛手證照也就是公務人員本身就要有具備這樣的一個飛手執照那他在哪裡訓練就要規劃出來不好意思主席最後我具體要求這四個單位"},{"start":7852.173,"end":7871.723,"text":"第一個行政院院本部那就請部長您帶回去行政院特別預算應用與協助地方政府建立與民間無人機業者的合作機制不是只靠著國防部中科院然後或者靠著嘉義當調全部沒有民間全部都沒啟動"},{"start":7872.543,"end":7888.499,"text":"所以就延誤了我整個的花蓮正災其實是可以更及時的更精確的然後提升這個救災防變能力國防部內政部聽好中央應主動在延期中導入最新無人機的技術建立災情的勘災臨時通訊物資藥物的載運等機制"},{"start":7893.064,"end":7915.531,"text":"明年訓期前完成驗證 國防部跟內政部等一下說明一下我要明年5月訓期前 你就要跟我完成相關的驗證交通部各縣市跟偵測無人機非手考照與培訓場地並鼓勵更多的政府機關與民眾取得證照 名利無窮啊這是交通部主責 經濟部"},{"start":7917.392,"end":7931.987,"text":"部長這是您忠忠之重我只要當立委的一天這個會期我講明了如果你沒有給我核定高雄國際AI無人產業中心你的預算一毛都不可能我都不可能讓你過無人機產業就是復國產業請張召本席在十天前對卓院長的質詢盡快設置高雄國際AI無人產業中心"},{"start":7941.736,"end":7964.955,"text":"直屬你部本部建立本土製造產業鏈是不是各部會是簡單主席可以讓國防部那種簡單的講一下他們要帶回去研究因為你講的那個他們可能也沒辦法去做很清楚的回應是不是我們會後我們一份報告你們的時程表到底什麼時候可以到達我們"},{"start":7965.775,"end":7987.885,"text":"林大華委員所講的這個標準的部分把時間表列出來然後送到我們委員的報告室好 那這樣好了市主席謝謝您的才事是不是我們能夠在一個月內請他們相關部會的規劃那我要求國防部內政部 交通部 經濟部在這個尤其國防部內政部 交通部在明年汛期前"},{"start":7988.405,"end":8015.683,"text":"完成相關無人機的一個整備工作包括他們各自所長那經濟部的部分就看你的動作你越快預算就有可能越快通過如果我即使是本黨的委員如果你沒有讓我成立這個高雄國際AI無人產業中心還是你還是聚集在這個這個嘉義的這個無人機的中心沒有分散的話我再講一次你預算經濟部一毛都別想通過好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":8016.743,"end":8041.801,"text":"谢谢大华委员我们请一个月我们各部会刚刚所提到的相关职责的部分一个月把计划弄出来然后dayline就是在明年讯息前是否可以达到我们林大华委员所预期的这样的一个效果然后一个月先把这样的资料给我们的委员会也给我们大华的办公室谢谢好 谢谢"},{"start":8043.224,"end":8047.594,"text":"謝謝 我們現在先休息五分鐘因為剛剛有宣告了不好意思 謝謝"},{"start":8071.928,"end":8072.148,"text":"好,另外兩個"},{"start":8092.055,"end":8112.363,"text":"來,洗手間,給我借一罐,給我借一罐。"},{"start":8136.309,"end":8140.373,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8156.355,"end":8182.027,"text":"這張圖片是在2012年10月1日拍攝的這張圖片是在2012年10月1日拍攝的"},{"start":8202.009,"end":8213.316,"text":"好嘞好嘞"},{"start":8221.954,"end":8233.082,"text":"烤箱"},{"start":8416.869,"end":8424.434,"text":"謝謝謝謝我們現在請邱志偉委員質詢 謝謝好 謝謝主席 要請經濟部龔部長農業部陳部長兩位部長還有台電王總經理還有王總經理台電王總經理謝謝"},{"start":8449.231,"end":8459.681,"text":"國務長辛苦了政務繁忙又要被跟拍又要被偷拍辛苦該告了還是要告保障自己的權益這個"},{"start":8463.811,"end":8476.622,"text":"這個預算編了600億分三個年度來執行那經濟部編了187億那187億裡面大概跟台電的任性有關係台電王總有來嗎"},{"start":8478.598,"end":8493.349,"text":"我大概講一下這種狀況就是這一次的風災路徑這颱風這個風災的路徑非常這個丹納斯颱風路徑跟一般颱風路徑不一樣這個部長等他來我再問這個他從"},{"start":8497.328,"end":8525.613,"text":"西南沿海從西南沿海然後登陸過去不是沒有這個案例有大概七八年前有一次也是從這個台南跟高雄登陸第一個這會造成嚴重傷害主要原因是說這是很很鮮少的路徑一般從東部或者南部很少從西南部從台灣西側沿海登陸所以"},{"start":8527.65,"end":8548.478,"text":"這個相關的災害造成包括大規模停電停水包括房屋損害包括道路的損害包括農漁產的損害所以今天那麼多不會來所以今天王總最專業台內王總最專業這個電纜地下化我十幾年前就在做了包括台17線 19線台9線 台1線"},{"start":8555.336,"end":8580.084,"text":"等等這些都要進行這個韌性的強化這韌性的強化需要經濟部給予台電更多的預算如果在它這個增資1000億沒有辦法達成的目標之下你要多給它一些這個所謂針對西南部這個沿海區域它電纜地下化的經費這部分能不能請部長你先表示一下意見"},{"start":8582.25,"end":8601.599,"text":"包委員 我們對台電的支持是一直在支持我知道啦 但是你說這個我剛剛所說的很特定的這個用途提預算出來當然包括甚至於這一次的這個因應國際情勢的這個特別預算我們之前也提出來200億我很具體的說西南沿海"},{"start":8602.739,"end":8631.559,"text":"靠風氣區它的電纜地下化這個必須要馬上做所以王總你知道我在說什麼嗎過去10年我的選區我做了不少就是我們台電公司總共102億其中80億就是要做這個事情針對西南部嗎西南部沿海對 大部分受風區因為這次的災區有12個縣市對 大部分你要盤點出來說這些受風面的這些縣市它的這個電纜地下化需要多少經費我就在優先去處理"},{"start":8632.998,"end":8645.144,"text":"否則造成大規模的停電會造成更多的這個所謂民眾的不便或者產業損失所以不能大規模停電所以電纜地下化是刻在 勢在必行而且是立業去執行"},{"start":8647.373,"end":8668.119,"text":"對 我們因為81預算所以還是先從比較重要重點地區可以實行的先來做這個有錢有經費就馬上去做這個很重要很難確保這極端氣候不會像有這種颱風但那是颱風這種路徑颱風再次產生再次產生你這個電纜沒有地下化"},{"start":8669.119,"end":8695.817,"text":"風來 兩會掉就倒了倒了就怪不得大規模停電我們也會除了同時並行地下化之外我們會加強穩固可以抗17級的風這個王總有可能嗎有可能嗎你這個電線桿可以抗17級就是不是每一支啦是比較主要的是 報告委員我們是在每五支就有一支所謂的一級電桿那就不用地下化了嗎"},{"start":8696.577,"end":8715.712,"text":"那個不能地下化的地區包括像一些可以地下化的地區優先地下化啦對可以但是經費有限啦因為80億能做的區域其實不多啦所以剛剛部長講的我們針對重要的地區先做對好主要經濟部還是電力的問題啦電力韌網韌性電網的強韌化最強韌化這個很重要另外這個農業部的部分"},{"start":8720.596,"end":8726.379,"text":"農業部大概這個也編了200億左右203億要分三年來執行這203億大概就是主要是做這個農漁產品的這些災害的補償然後這個設施的補償專案輔導還有基礎建設農水路的基礎建設如果假設再發生像丹納斯颱風這種"},{"start":8742.418,"end":8755.36,"text":"這種傷害 我們沿海的這個養殖 漁溫 或者這個農田設施會受到影響未來怎麼樣去讓類似的情況在發生的時候 我們的基礎設施 我們龍魚的生產能夠不受影響"},{"start":8756.437,"end":8782.94,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這次的經驗我們就發現說我們如果完全靠即時的輸電可能會有影響所以我們已經漁業署已經在規劃相對的這些這些漁產業專區有一些儲能的設備然後加裝儲能的設備萬一電力沒辦法供應的話可以透過儲能的設備來持續的讓那個水車基本的那個水車的運作能夠做一些運作這個部分你什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":8784.112,"end":8787.911,"text":"這個我們現在已經開始在做了而且哪些縣市在執行"},{"start":8790.648,"end":8816.929,"text":"跟委員報告 包括高雄台南縣型這種地區型養殖漁園的儲能設備我們都有在補助沒記錯的話已經有十幾戶都有這樣建設這個部分我們早天在好好討論你們用多少經費 用多少預算然後執行多少年的啟程這很重要儲能設備對這些養殖漁業非常重要另外再回到經濟部"},{"start":8818.825,"end":8844.636,"text":"這個高雄的河川的治水率 治理率跟雨水下水道在原來高雄縣就是現在北高雄的區域尤其是集中在我的全區不管是河川治理率啦或者區排治理率都遠低於全國平均這部分水利署有沒有比較積極的作為怎麼樣把這個河川治理率跟雨水下水道的實施率都能夠最短時間能夠提升上來"},{"start":8846.949,"end":8871.881,"text":"蘇長好 謝謝委員我想委員一直在關切整個高雄的不管河川跟排水的治理吧在整個目前全國的治理率來講在縣市管的部分是45%那這幾年在這個委員的支持之下其實整個高雄目前有一些場主進步包含像點保溪"},{"start":8872.341,"end":8892.716,"text":"沒有說長途進步有進步啦有進步有進步我期待我們把這個問題點出來就是說我們過去已經落後了現在也要迎頭趕上沒有錯因為像委員關切的點寶溪或後晉溪這一些因為這個點寶溪後晉溪是未來半導體生產的中心耶是男子產業園區這個六個廠"},{"start":8894.778,"end":8913.498,"text":"台積電六個廠都會在那邊未來可能又還有一廠可能我們部長比較了解可能未來還有一廠一點是會來我的百普園區也不一定這樣有六個廠這個是典寶溪後晉溪的流域或是核酸治理很重要我想委員都一直關切我們的這些進展我們會來努力包含像"},{"start":8914.259,"end":8929.183,"text":"刚才谈阿公电西的整体的环境改造都是委员一直关切的我们会积极跟市政来努力因为高雄市政执行量能效率都非常好我们会一起来努力好 谢谢那最后一个问题想请教内政部大概30秒钟各位请回"},{"start":8931.563,"end":8949.206,"text":"電視部是董事董事大概請教一下災害防救法我們應該考慮去修正一下就是能夠參考日本的災害對策基本法明定縣市政府要建立弱勢避難名冊"},{"start":8950.407,"end":8965.716,"text":"是這個部分還有甄列這個參與條款這個您覺得怎麼樣我們會積極來研討修正這一次我們也特別發現就是說其實我們在第一時間就有要求相關的弱勢戶他應該要積極避難事實上花蓮縣政府在第一"},{"start":8966.136,"end":8988.998,"text":"第一次的警报9月21号公布的时候他们也有做这样子的疏散那后来当然是他们地方上在执行上跟我们中央在指令上面他们可能配合来不及那原则上我们觉得委员这个建议方向是我们可以参考我们会再继续讨论多久时间可以完成就是避难所落实避难名册的建立跟纳入这个所谓的参与条款"},{"start":8989.74,"end":8999.47,"text":"這個要修法對 這要修法我們會積極來處理好 謝謝謝謝市長謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員質詢謝謝我們的市長我們現在請謝一鋒委員質詢好 謝謝主席我想要請龔部長請龔部長"},{"start":9022.601,"end":9047.819,"text":"謝委員好 國務部長好雖然我們今天在討論的是丹納市颱風那我必須要講一下就是說我們彰化在這一次的丹納市颱風裡面有非常多的排水那以及在去年的颱風當中也有像這一次一樣有可能會滿體或液體的相關的排水設施那我知道因為我上會期去已經考察了非常多的排水相關的設施"},{"start":9049,"end":9069.852,"text":"水利署跟我說要放在4年4千億的這個特別預算裡面那我想要了解4年1千億的特別預算不是特別預算是公務預算所以明年就會編所以明年會編嗎所以是確定會編嗎因為我要確定因為如果沒有辦法編的話那那些因為颱風所"},{"start":9071.713,"end":9099.105,"text":"就是說所影響的排水設施就應該要納在這一次的特別風災的那個條例裡面來修理那如果是下個會就是明年度的預算的話那是不是一定要把我們去會堪的那些排水設施都放在相關的那個預算裡面所以為什麼會編四年一千億就是把整個台灣重要的部分全部都會統整的來做一次性的處理 對"},{"start":9100.605,"end":9123.5,"text":"對那就必須要記得那還有現在大家在說回答要落腳新售的T17 T18好像會不會破局你說你說不會他們很喜歡那裡這個要看市政府跟這個新售他們談的結果好像就是說市政府已經要發函給新售要去談這個事情"},{"start":9125.062,"end":9144.277,"text":"所以你不是在盤點全台灣的土地嗎你有沒有放我們彰化的你有沒有盤一下我們彰化的我們彰化有什麼土地可以用因為這個就是NVIDIA它還是有期待的一些條件那我們會根據它的條件來做盤點"},{"start":9146.267,"end":9162.281,"text":"所以對啊那有什麼條件一定要在台北是嗎有嗎他有講嗎沒有他有講說這些條件請不要對外公開不能公開那所以你有沒有盤點有沒有盤點彰化的你有沒有根據條件盤點一下彰化的陸續陸續再盤點但是我們還是要"},{"start":9169.48,"end":9195.565,"text":"要滿足他們的這個期待的條件你都講不出來我看應該是在台北是不是我們彰化沒希望那彰化可以有什麼相關的對不對因為像現在美國在談判裡面他提到了就是希望說三奈米以下先進製程的這個晶片有百分之四十以上或者是五十在在美國生產那"},{"start":9196.26,"end":9203.395,"text":"我想請問那一天那個正副院長他去美國說五五分不會那會不會六次"},{"start":9205.806,"end":9225.655,"text":"還是73不是沒有辦法沒有辦法去預料說因為美國將來的需求量多大這個要預估我們也不知道所以馬上去講五五分或六四分這個沒有辦法去去確定這件事情你覺得會不會有可能那我們只能確定的就是說在台灣的這個台積電的已經宣布的這個11條新的這個11座經驗場已經"},{"start":9230.851,"end":9242.984,"text":"包括台中四座嘛那高雄可能是五座或六座嘛那還有竹科嘛這個是最先進的那即便是台積電已經在美國宣佈的部分1650億是六座嘛所以"},{"start":9246.107,"end":9267.062,"text":"台湾的这个产能产量远比而且时程上也远比美国的要快非常多因为美国的部分它第二厂也许到明年才会开始量产2028年可能三个厂才会开始量产但我们不一样我们现在很快那个高雄厂已经要开始量产了"},{"start":9268.737,"end":9292.836,"text":"可是像你們現在在講的就是政府院長回來的記者會講到的G2G這個部分有沒有你們提到的相關性我覺得我們一定要對外說明你這樣不說明的話業者也會很就是說因為你提到的G2G或者是聚酪型的把我們的我們的足科的經驗整個搬到美國去那會不會加速"},{"start":9293.973,"end":9310.676,"text":"會不會加速不是搬過去啦是把這個經驗分享給美國啦那也是事實上使用這樣的聚酪也是我們台灣廠商那為什麼剛才提到說對 可是台灣廠商會擔心會不會加速"},{"start":9311.687,"end":9339.342,"text":"你知道嗎速度加快啊本來也許就是說它的進程沒那麼快的可是當你是聚酪型或者是整個竹科共同去的時候會不會加速報告委員因為我們的原則一定是先是立足台灣才是佈局全球所以立足台灣我們產生的這個在台灣產生的這個聚酪效應是發展得非常好所以也持續在發生當中我剛剛提到了很多的這些產能包括"},{"start":9339.822,"end":9366.881,"text":"半导体的产能持续在增加当中所以它这个是力量的往外延伸不是把台湾的能量移出去不是的那当然就是我们的厂商在做全球布局我们当然希望我们的厂商在那个地方可以营运顺利赚钱因为母公司毕竟在台湾它在那个地方可以赚钱的话也会充实我们母公司的能量所以我们当然也不希望说它这边布局以后它失败"},{"start":9367.702,"end":9380.271,"text":"那會影響到我們公司啊所以就是說所以它赴美投資是用分公司還是子公司不一定就是通常有些是用子公司啊那有沒有要做相關的規範"},{"start":9382.28,"end":9407.713,"text":"相關的規範它如果一定金額以上是要送到我們這個投審室來做審查的對不對要不要做相關的規範畢竟要維持台灣對於美國公司相關公司的這樣子的控制力嘛是不是不然它會不會就全部都全然的聽美國的就我們審查來講的話企業當然有企業的考量但是就我們審查來講我們第一個是國家"},{"start":9408.653,"end":9426.249,"text":"國家安全或有國家利益第二個是整體產業的利益這兩個是我們重要的審查的依據就是你做這個事情你會不會危害到國家安全你做這個事情會不會影響到我們整體產業的利益我提到的是你提到的是國家安全我提到的是產業的憂慮以及專家學者的憂慮 對不對"},{"start":9429.692,"end":9453.278,"text":"這兩個同時都是要考量的對 我是說大家會憂慮嘛過去我們所認為的細鈍是不是不在的那再來是不是會加速我們的整個半導體的供應鏈外移那這兩個我希望經濟部都能夠徹底的協助國內的廠商好不好不能讓我們整個半導體的供應鏈外移對 立足台灣是我們的最優先沒有錯"},{"start":9455.131,"end":9471.084,"text":"就是要讓半導體的供應鏈留在臺灣不要加速外移好不好對 我們會擴大它的能量在臺灣是不是不要加速外移我講的是大家擔心的是這一點好不好好好謝謝 給我幾分鐘我再問一下農業部長謝謝鄉親農業部長謝謝"},{"start":9478.094,"end":9492.392,"text":"委員好部長不好意思那個丹納市颱風之後對於農田尤其是就是那種根莖類的作物還有這些蔬菜作物他們產生非常大的影響那"},{"start":9493.833,"end":9512.742,"text":"農民在抱怨就是說根據政府所提供的補助都沒有辦法實質的請領以及得到實質的幫助這個部分能不能趕快協助因為這一次我相信在花蓮的風災當中也會受到相關的這樣子的問題嗎 是不是"},{"start":9515.203,"end":9529.976,"text":"我跟委員報告因為彰化的部分其實最大的影響在0708的大豪雨的部分然後有一些短期葉菜類的部分所以短期葉菜類因為它三個禮拜就可以復耕所以我們在第一時間也去做了這些公告"},{"start":9530.416,"end":9556.947,"text":"那您剛才委員說的他領不到的部分我們會再來瞭解看到底是哪一個環節出問題他們就是說申請不到啊他們去申請的也申請不到啊這個可能跟公所我們會再跟公所聯繫一下看看公所他遇到的個案是什麼樣子我們再來看怎麼樣的協助那我想要請問關稅談判之後有可能我們的蝴蝶藍的大苗沒有辦法還維持零關稅的優惠那"},{"start":9558.608,"end":9584.287,"text":"那個業者他要出口的成本勢必會增加那我想請問如果業者要有沒有現在有沒有業者要赴美國去設廠我想美國市場他們現在在評估但是他們現在在評估就是在利用台塘在美國的這個五公頃的這些蘭花的這些生產基地當作他們一個中繼站就是他們的接地生產基地在台塘 美國台塘的加州的廠"},{"start":9584.947,"end":9612.592,"text":"所以這個部分我們也積極的在協商第一個部分我們已經請台糖這塊地不要賣掉然後可以來做一些業者的這些中繼的這些接力生產基地然後我們也開始請業者做規劃如果業者願意利用這個廠做接力生產的時候那政府願意投入資金去協助他當地廠的設置設備的改善以符合業者的要求"},{"start":9613.16,"end":9634.354,"text":"所以如果業者想要到美國設廠你們會藉由台塘這塊土地來協助業者能在那裡生產蝴蝶蘭所需要的就是大苗小苗等等是不是是 我們這個政策上我們大概已經確定但是一個前提就是業者一定要他自己籌組成有一個經營團隊來經營而不是由台塘經營的"},{"start":9635.174,"end":9641.657,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝謝一鋒委員 謝謝部長 謝謝我們現在請呂玉玲委員質詢謝謝主席 請龔部長 陳部長還有內政部的董次長我們請兩位部長 一位次長備詢 謝謝好 部長 次長"},{"start":9663.918,"end":9680.351,"text":"花蓮的馬太安溪映射湖我們討論這麼久了現在最重要就是在災害來臨之前我們要為以籌謀做好萬全的準備災害發生的時候我們要及時的來救助支援對不對"},{"start":9681.451,"end":9695.521,"text":"所以現在我們看到這個驗射壺的情形有很多種的做法但是我們想請教的是現在討論這麼久了你們有沒有擔心說萬一如果形成了二次驗射壺的風險會有多高"},{"start":9698.025,"end":9716.102,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是驗測現在如果照現在的雨量跟現在的情態它的流水往下游流水是穩定的溢流的部分但是但是它的邊坡能持續的在零星的崩塌然後其實現在目前比較擔心的是所以你們就要在水源頭來解決對 沒有"},{"start":9718.504,"end":9736.893,"text":"因為它的霸體太大然後現在也不穩定嘛那我們也持續的先做監控的部分那其實現在擔心的是地震的時候是不是有可能這些情況都要考慮進去啦那現在最重要就是說你要找到個適合設置緊急這個易洪道的這個排水吧"},{"start":9737.153,"end":9752.507,"text":"对 所以我们刚才讲的从上游的更精准的监测到中下游的这些下游的部分的这些提防的加高跟进入的输进那个水道的输进的部分是当作第一优先那这个部分在经济部水利署的部分所以你们也赶快规划去做"},{"start":9753.167,"end":9782.667,"text":"趕快做要先做好未來萬一又有什麼颱風來的時候的準備都要做好來好不好那我要問一下內政部那因為現在我們發生了這個災情那我們整個光復鄉的大同村還有那個太平村的一些低窪地區的災民受寵最大那我們也興建了這個住宅要來安置這些災民的需求但是在長久來講的話我們會不會有遷村的這個考量"},{"start":9783.788,"end":9800.358,"text":"跟委員報告本部目前根據國土署的同仁在現場的所做的調查那麼有相當的民眾他們希望有中繼宅大概有40戶左右那這個部分我們會盡力協助至於是否要遷村我們必須要尊重在地住民的意願"},{"start":9801.138,"end":9829.334,"text":"那根据在地住民的意愿我们去做一些调查那他们也要跟县府一起共同来讨论所以刚刚强调就是这个地方比较低洼那你的验射壶的话未来不可能说有没有可能说整个等到水干掉之后的话你把它用爆破的方式把这个泥土泥沙都载走之后不会有个验射壶还是未来就有这个验射壶如果有这个验射壶存在的话我们担心它整个坝体够坚固吗我们担心又有"},{"start":9830.314,"end":9846.945,"text":"這個豪大雨來的時候這水的沖流崩塌下雨的居民怎麼辦這個統統考慮進去好不好好 謝謝那因為說現在現社會在全台灣被觀測的除了現在花蓮地方還有新竹的這個太岡溪對不對"},{"start":9848.465,"end":9866.151,"text":"對 太岡溪現在部分大概它的映射湖的水蓄量的話大概4.8萬噸大概相當於20座的游泳池至少在你們監測就是還有危險的風險嘛 對不對有危險風險你們有沒有考慮可能就是罷頂降蛙或者是抽水"},{"start":9866.431,"end":9886.084,"text":"不過因為以現在的這些蓄水量的部分的時候因為它已經持續在溢流所以它全部如果說全部水流出來的話我們預估大概是會讓河道的水增加20到40公分所以它不會影響到整個附近的一個居民所以我們會持續的去關心因為一般的"},{"start":9886.764,"end":9904.677,"text":"映射壺通常都會在大好雨的時候會把一些它的原來崩落的這些碎石去沖開用這種方式是最單純的方式所以我們會持續的監控你要記得一件事情因為台灣還是有地震地震的時候整個我們以後宜山都有可能是山崩"},{"start":9905.755,"end":9925.39,"text":"落實都會造成這個驗射壺如果說整個地震來的時候驗射壺的整個壩體是否穩固都是我們堪慮的問題所以現在有觀測的你們要加強監測了解沒有再發生有我跟委員報告現在台灣有可能造成驗射壺的這些區位的盤點大概8000多個區位"},{"start":9926.671,"end":9948.996,"text":"那這個區位的盤點以後我們分為幾個一個是可能會有持續的落實的區位跟有一些是比較穩定的部分所以我們也會公告這個不要因為說它的蓄水量沒那麼多可是現在台灣很多都知道豪大雨來的時候無法疏洪到出來的話會影響後面的災情了解 我們會持續的去監控這個要注意的我們"},{"start":9953.418,"end":9970.065,"text":"部長請回 我們請留下經濟部長跟台電的王總經理請王總經理部長 王總丹納斯颱風有2454座的電線桿"},{"start":9976.69,"end":9990.442,"text":"像是骨牌陣一樣倒塌所以本席今天就要跟你講一個電塔電塔電塔倒塌是不是就沒有電電塔是不是造成其他的什麼災害壓到"},{"start":9993.803,"end":10015.033,"text":"住宅壓到車輛壓到民宅壓到人對不對所以本席跟你提一下桃園市龍潭區我的龍柯山崎這高壓電塔討論這麼久了今天所有的民眾掛起白布條你們處不處理從第一條電桿"},{"start":10017.935,"end":10043.786,"text":"從榮坑你們要走電子湖到楊桐路要走到這個榮興這個路線裡面有四根電桿要遞上高架的方式這些地方非常危險我告訴你第一根電塔第一根電塔就是蕭嶺溪的水源頭影響人民民眾的用水第二根電塔在哪裡"},{"start":10045.441,"end":10073.819,"text":"第二根電塔是最彎最彎的髮夾彎的地方民眾也很多住在那裡第三根電塔在哪裡底下都是民眾今天掛出來白布條寫著你寫著民眾住在山腳下電塔台電住在山頭他們的安全誰來保障台灣的地震土石山崩落石萬一壓到民宅呢"},{"start":10075.802,"end":10092.066,"text":"所以我們民眾我們的里長一直跟你懇求這條路線十幾年了一直跟你們拜託要來處理溝通再溝通最後我請你們處理的時候你們說里長我已經溝通完畢了沒問題發包動工要來施工了"},{"start":10097.003,"end":10107.727,"text":"10月18號你們開的說明會是動工說明會你並沒有在會前之前要走這條路線之前開工廳會跟民眾來講通通沒有民眾生命財產的安全你放在哪裡所以你看看這個圖看看他們掛的白布條里長我給你建議三條路線那本席在這邊具體告訴你"},{"start":10124.232,"end":10137.258,"text":"有解決的方案可以地下化就是我們從榮科從這邊拉出電來走電子湖走陽桶再從這邊走六杠寮到友達地下化總經理這個問題一定要解決不要告訴我你發包你就要動工停止開工解決這個問題把人民的生命財產放在眼裡好好討論好不好"},{"start":10154.892,"end":10178.708,"text":"包委員 包委員現在做的這一條線路是桃竹苗的大細股計畫的其中一環我知道大細股計畫我知道這條拉電拉給龍科從竹科拉到龍科 龍科拉過來最後在龍險變電所 對不對是 沒有錯有替代道路我現在告訴你一條路6米寬 又直又寬你不走"},{"start":10179.844,"end":10208.713,"text":"你要走個有山坡的有高壓電塔要坐好山坡上面那整個大法夾彎欸路線要走得更長為什麼不能走個安全能對人民民眾有保障的路線呢跟委員報告這一題我想我們都會再持續跟持續已經十幾年了現在發報了所以總經理在這邊答應我沒有討論清楚沒有協調清楚不准動工好不好"},{"start":10210.073,"end":10233.81,"text":"這個我們會再持續溝通不准動工你要在這邊保證好不好因為所有的事情在做的過程一定是要和諧嘛我們一定會再持續那也會再請委員還有在當地的議員在未溝通清楚路線不明民眾抗議的情況之下不准動工謝謝謝謝呂毅林委員的諮詢謝謝謝謝我們部長還有我們現在請黃國昌委員諮詢"},{"start":10242.631,"end":10250.98,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請農業部部長經濟部部長台電的總經理今天是總經理來嗎我們請兩位部長還有我們台電總經理謝謝三位好時間的關係不宜問候"},{"start":10263.806,"end":10279.391,"text":"我們在推動整個再生能源特別是光電整個歷程當中在2017年的時候太陽光電二年推動計畫修正版裡面針對有關於在水域空間要放地面型的光電兩年的目標是150MW"},{"start":10281.943,"end":10295.544,"text":"那裡面包括了非常多的水庫我從公開資訊可以找得到的從阿公店水庫寶二水庫內浦子水庫一路下來這個是我從公開資訊可以找得到的部分下一個問題"},{"start":10298.029,"end":10323.812,"text":"針對有關於在水庫放光電板的這件事情民主進步黨有個辟謠專區說太陽能板沒有毒不會破壞烏山頭水庫的水質太陽能板都用清水清理大家都不用擔心不會對水質造成任何的影響請問一下經濟部經濟部的立場跟民進黨的立場是不是一致的"},{"start":10325.697,"end":10352.317,"text":"報告委員因為水質我們都有監控是如果水質有變的話我們就會知道ok好那這些水它要進到我們沒有我其實問題只有非常簡單啦在水庫裡面裝光電板的這件事情經濟部認為是不是對於飲水不會造成任何影響yes or no我們會監控如果有有異質我們就會來我先給你看右手邊的例子來請部長看一下右手邊的例子"},{"start":10353.7,"end":10376.014,"text":"之前在配合這個計畫的時候針對有關於曾文水庫大浦鄉公所給光電業者在曾文水庫設後來嘉義縣議會做了決議說反對對民生用水的水庫不同意設置太陽光電發電系統嘉義縣議會做了這樣子的決議以後嘉義縣政府就不發了"},{"start":10381.148,"end":10401.512,"text":"籌備許可那針對嘉義縣政府這樣子的立場經濟部贊不贊成會不會覺得嘉義縣政府是禮盲嘉義縣政府不講道理光電板不會影響飲用水的安全憑什麼不准設因為到最後啦大埔鄉公所被判罰六千萬因為嘉義縣政府不願意給他許可"},{"start":10403.533,"end":10431.492,"text":"因為我現在從地方政府到中央政府現在我看了覺得很困惑啊嘉義縣民有疑慮嘉義縣議會做決議嘉義縣政府從善如流我沒有在責怪任何一個單位的意思但問題是說中央政府說沒有問題中央政府說很乾淨很安全那一般的民眾就搞不清楚啦為什麼嘉義縣議會做了決議以後嘉義縣政府就可以不發許可"},{"start":10432.745,"end":10448.473,"text":"那針對有關於水庫放光電板的這件事情我問一個最直接的立法院如果做決議的話經濟部會遵守嗎還是經濟部認為說立法院做立法院的決議我經濟部愛怎麼幹你們管不著"},{"start":10449.958,"end":10466.087,"text":"這是我的問題因為程序上來講因為這個水庫放光電板不是只有台灣各有的現象是 但這不是我的問題是 那大致上來講的話都沒有所謂的這個水質變化的問題所以我們當然也允許這樣的處理"},{"start":10467.188,"end":10483.083,"text":"所以加一線政府不發許可就加一線政府不講道理嘛是不是不是不是程序上來講的話地方政府有地方政府多種的考量可能水質的擔心事情一些事情而已嘛只要他們擔心水質有沒有道理擔心水質本來就有道理"},{"start":10483.243,"end":10500.754,"text":"就有道理嘛 非常好 那所以我最後關鍵的問題啦嘉義縣議會做了決議嘉義縣政府就不發許可現在我的問題很直接啊我們立法院如果做了這樣子的決議經濟部水利署會不會停止推動在水庫放光電板"},{"start":10502.262,"end":10522.976,"text":"這是我的問題我們程序上來講的話還是第一關就是地方政府如果不同意的話我們就不會收件你還是沒有回答我的問題如果在政策上面立法院做了這樣子的決議經濟部會不會如同嘉義縣政府一樣從善如流地方議會做決議嘉義縣政府就不發啦這個是嘉義縣政府給的理由欸"},{"start":10523.556,"end":10547.239,"text":"是 那立法院如果決議的話總是要有一個什麼樣的理由嘛是 沒有關係啊 我100%援引嘉義縣議會的理由啊就是居民擔心用水的安全 剛剛你也說這個考慮是有道理的啊我100%援引用嘉義縣議會的理由啊現在我在思考的事情就是我們過了這樣子的決議"},{"start":10548.726,"end":10576.963,"text":"行政院會不會說立法院濫權擴權做了決議行政機關沒有必要要遵守這個是我的問題我們來看看說那個決議狀第二個問題目前國家風景區內烏山頭水庫設置光電板要不要還平這件事情我上次請教環境部部長主席不好意思這個問題問完我就下來了然後環境部部長說什麼環境部部長說現在是不用還平未來要不要還平他們在考慮"},{"start":10578.127,"end":10600.448,"text":"結果我逼問了半天了以後 他把問題推給誰 他把問題推給經濟部的元素他意思是說啊 立法委員不要一直去問環境部 環境部也很無奈啦裡面有個非常重要的目的事業主管機關他們可以不准 他們可以卡著 但是他們一直要推現在鍋全部給環境部背 那天部長在備詢的時候看起來表情也是很無奈"},{"start":10601.294,"end":10610.873,"text":"那我們有辦法不能強人所難嘛所以我現在只能回來問經濟部經濟部水利署贊不贊成未來水面型的光電廠納入環皮"},{"start":10613.875,"end":10638.262,"text":"所有的光電或者是綠能產業的推動是整個行政院甚至於全國環境上的目標所以我才不要一人一把號不會是只有我們的目標所以我問了環境部環境部不敢答他要我問經濟部所以我今天站在這邊請教部長所以我們要釐清的就是這個疑慮這個疑慮的話我們就先暫緩那如果先把它釐清"},{"start":10638.482,"end":10658.878,"text":"沒有 我的問題是你贊不贊成把他納入環評納入環評才知道有沒有辦法去消除疑慮不是嗎現在我問的問題非常的單純現在水面型的光電不用環評那現在政策評估上面在考慮要把他納入環評從經濟部的立場贊不贊成是不是我們跟那個我們是不是這個問題齁這因為現在已經引發了"},{"start":10661.84,"end":10680.226,"text":"社會的關注 是不是這個問題我們請相關單位經濟部跟環境部因為今天環境部次長也有到把這問題然後作為你們這個慎重去討論的一個議題好不好可以嗎 可以喔 好好謝謝主席的採視 謝謝謝謝我們部長 謝謝黃國昌委員我們現在請鐘嘉斌委員資訊"},{"start":10699.23,"end":10725.907,"text":"主席在場委員現進列席的政務機關長官員會場工作夥伴記者媒體女士先生有請經濟部的拱部長和勞動部的陳次長以及勞發署的師傅署長我們請我們總委員所邀請的備詢單位備詢謝謝部長好聽說你是報紙披露政務官當中被跟監偷拍的受害者之一是這樣嗎"},{"start":10729.276,"end":10754.781,"text":"有疑似這樣的情況那剛剛同樣的黃國昌委員在質詢你的時候你心裡有沒有一些陰影不會啦但是我覺得讓你的心理素質可能很強你先旁邊一下我問一下次長來勞動部陳次長我們那天在衛環委員問了我們的洪部長我們工廠移工來支援農業打工的運往下看很快的"},{"start":10755.681,"end":10771.581,"text":"這次減半休息包括一共在超過8500但是我們知道各種新聞顯示農業缺工是常態缺工問題難解佛祖階的農民表示雖然田被淤泥覆蓋誰來清除還沒有辦法但是他很希望能夠早日復耕你支持他們早日復耕嗎"},{"start":10772.342,"end":10795.052,"text":"當然 當然好 那我們來看一下農業長期缺工 災後農業缺工農業對移工人力有需求但另一方面我們美國關稅影響工廠減班休息收入累減的移工他對工作有需求因此農業部提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職運用架構有需求有方法就可以執行那天問你們部長說目前的障礙出在救福法對不對"},{"start":10796.888,"end":10814.146,"text":"好 我們來看一下好 照我們看農業部的這個草案我就不再贅述在我看來它就會變成有兩個僱主但是救護法我們規定一共它是單一僱主往下看所以如果說我們在未來行政院提出一個重建特別條例我們這個丹納斯的重建特別條例不是要修嗎"},{"start":10815.287,"end":10841.516,"text":"有沒有要修那我們是不是可以裡面多修一個讓我們制定一個就業服務法的除外適用範圍跟對象的條款只在特別法裡面訂而且是有期限的兩年半這樣子不影響勞動部您覺得可不可以研究一下這部分我們可以來研究評好謝謝請回那我們請那個經濟部長您調試來了那我們再也請園區管理局的楊局長也請上來好我們來看到"},{"start":10843.62,"end":10850.487,"text":"這個北市科很夯啊聽說他的未來的潛在收益從107億到140億換算他3.89公頃大概每公頃的租金收益在未來的"},{"start":10857.575,"end":10883.294,"text":"每年喔 把它除以50年每年可以收5500萬到7200萬這是指北市科那段地但是我們屏東雖然沒有北市科也不是輝達要來但是我們看到台積電他有10個供應商要來屏東科學園區但是不夠 裝不下還要去碰旁邊的怎麼樣旁邊的大面積的大概要看30公頃部長知道嗎"},{"start":10885.029,"end":10902.868,"text":"他們說要跟台塘合作開發 屏東縣都這樣表示 可以嗎可以嗎 可不可以 往下看好 我們來跟地方政府討論好 不是已經討論了 已經在做了很多台湯店上面的賺不到的 現在他們的資料漲了台湯跟他們說 我們現在可能有兩碗要贏啊所以我們要收回來 30公頃至少啦 來"},{"start":10908.168,"end":10933.336,"text":"台塘你們知道台塘一公頃一公頃一年收多少 你知道嗎部長你知道嗎一年六萬啦一年六萬啦未來如果說不要說揮打啦租給其他的二哥三哥六哥啦至少呢也有好幾千萬一公頃那台塘從六萬變成一公頃一年可以輸了上千萬你覺得"},{"start":10934.844,"end":10953.795,"text":"你覺得台糖對台糖有沒有什麼幫助第一個它的地價稅縣政府幫他辦變更地價稅可以多收台糖的地價增值很好租金大大的收益是不是山贏台糖贏對不對地方政府贏進入了廠商營誰沒有贏"},{"start":10955.698,"end":10967.814,"text":"誰沒有贏所以我請問一下部長是否支持高科技電子業的租金負責大方台糖的收益拿來回饋地方支不支持"},{"start":10969.815,"end":10987.275,"text":"可以嗎來 說明一下可不可以 簡單講 時間的關係 簡單講就是說如果是符合台塘的睦鄰規定的話我們可以建造來做睦鄰規定 台塘的睦鄰規定可以修我建議你怎麼修 往下看 趕快了台塘可以幫助青年上業減少生活壓力 往下看 怎麼樣呢阿中跟你建議啦"},{"start":10987.956,"end":10995.481,"text":"屏東孩子屏東煮茶 台湯在屏東 台湯都種五萬公頃全國 屏東就一萬一千公頃過去我們是騎馬不便宜 現在判來了台積電觀念廠商他可以台湯鎮壓 都說輸贏這個呢 屏東孩子多少 一個人台湯包五十萬的紅包類 你說好不好大家都說好 部長好不好"},{"start":11008.57,"end":11033.526,"text":"好不好 我們來核算一下 核算一下往下看 這個要幹嘛請進入盤點台塘注意收益及回饋機制 趕快修辦法讓我們地區性的政策回饋地方台塘如果租地給高科技廠商電子線的不只屏東其他的縣市也可以比照辦理好不好 我沒有做主事的啦台南也有 嘉義也有 對不對只要有騰訊的地方 我們的住地幾分幾吋一個人五十萬人包內 保證啊 加油一下好不好"},{"start":11036.824,"end":11057.813,"text":"好 謝謝 合算一下你講啦 要部長講啦 不然你騙他 部長有沒有我要合算一下 好 謝謝謝謝啦 讓我們的台湯子弟更有 地方子弟能夠享受這相關的福利啦 謝謝我們謝謝部長 謝謝總講兵委 我們現在請賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":11069.338,"end":11086.223,"text":"好謝謝召委我先請一下農業部陳部長經濟部龔部長園民會的股仲副主委還有交通部的陳次長我們請我們部長副主委還有次長我也好我先請教一下這個"},{"start":11088.195,"end":11112.339,"text":"丹納市的颱風還有728的豪雨 其實確實對台灣造成了相當多的影響那這個重建條例也通過了那也各地方政府也報上來 那我第一個先請教一下這一個廣泛的問題啦 因為裡面有包括高雄的案子裡面其實有包括35案是有關於丹納市颱風跟豪雨的 那水利設施的也有相關案件 包括"},{"start":11113.019,"end":11134.719,"text":"部落排水 山坡邊坡整治跟復建還有道路交通的部分還有家園跟公共設施還有社會復原跟產業促進這總數大概將近有差不多100案左右我先示意請教一下總數加起來可能需要到20億的一個支持這個案子也都報到中央來了"},{"start":11135.299,"end":11155.76,"text":"那我先問一下這些案子的部分都會得到中央的支持嗎還是還有什麼樣的考量的我是不是先請農業部長我跟委員報告一下就是有關於這次丹納森颱風您剛才所提到的這些農水路的部分還有基礎建設的部分我們農業部大概編的76.82億是協助地方政府那我剛才查了一下在高雄市的部分大概"},{"start":11156.721,"end":11172.627,"text":"相關的部分大概有5億農糧的部分大概有5億的部分可以去協助但是每一個案子是由地方政府報上來我們還是會現刊然後去做一些核定的動作實際的金額可能會有一些會有一些調整調整 對"},{"start":11174.107,"end":11202.598,"text":"但大方向上面會支持啦會給予支持就是說因為當時總統也提過從寬從幽從速從減的原則一個大原則就是地方政府查報來我們現刊如果說它其實沒那麼嚴重有沒有那可能用比較少的經費我們也是為了支持這個當然啦如果沒那麼嚴重的話那當然就要調整但是如果確實是事實的話也會從速來給予相關的一個補助跟支持那另外有關於那些的山坡地的一些部分跟野溪的整治的部分呢"},{"start":11203.174,"end":11224.331,"text":"那個山坡地的部分我們編了其中76.82億裡面25.72億是邊坡防治的部分都是還在裡面所以是邊坡防治農水路那另外還有所謂的漁港的部分那還有養殖的區的這些農水路這個加起來大概76.82億所以這些大方向上都給支持就看現場的會勘的狀況好 謝謝部長"},{"start":11226.693,"end":11253.023,"text":"那再來龔部長因為分成兩個部分一個大概直接民眾的部分這是一個部分或者是廠商的部分他直接來申請那剛剛提到從優從寬從素那另外一個就是包括剛剛提到的這些簡易自來水也好或者是水利設施也好因為那個是根據地方政府我們要跟他合作把這個事情做好所以那個要等地方政府我們再跟他協調"},{"start":11253.883,"end":11279.495,"text":"所以現在報上來部分多數上是沒有問題的給予支持是那剩下的部分當然有些他陸續在報當中特別是比較原鄉的地區有些自來水部分損害的比較嚴重這個請到時候市府報上來的時候也請這個經濟部這邊能夠來專案給予支持我們我想這個條例跟這個特別預算也希望給予這些受災的災民都給予更大的一個支持好 謝謝那再來是不是請下谷中副主委"},{"start":11281.679,"end":11310.239,"text":"委員好原民會的部分呢那針對部落排水包括部落聯絡道以及橋樑的部分我們大概編列有將近42億那目前我們已經針對地方政府我們開過三次的審查會議那目前已經審查有317件預算是39.3億所以委員關心這個能不能把部落包括部落排水 邊坡 攤房這些房子能不能納入我們原則上都OK"},{"start":11310.899,"end":11334.377,"text":"所以這些都有納入了所以從那馬下到桃園到茂林高雄市這三個園鄉的部分都有納入了對 我剛剛跟委員報告有317件是包括到屏東台東嘉義阿里山等等那有關於高雄市三個園區的部分我們再提供數字給委員參考那請就請還是要大力的支持好 謝謝那再來是不是交通陳次長交通也是重大的一個影響是不是請"},{"start":11335.658,"end":11355.878,"text":"市長跟委員報告一下有關我們公路局審到的部分我們就不提了那個是我們自己會去處理當然也是納在這個條例裡面那至於地方政府所提報的案件裡面高雄市大概有提報了23件那23件經過我們的初審大概都是照數就是同意"},{"start":11356.398,"end":11380.013,"text":"所以這些都會同意來支持大概會有一億多的經費報告當時有提到那個民生橋的部分當時總統跟院長也都承諾了部長也都承諾了這也希望能夠加速是我們會加速來辦理好謝謝因為總數有高雄也是重災區總數有20億的一個我希望能夠請各部會再加速來協助讓災民能夠早日的恢復他的一些狀況"},{"start":11380.854,"end":11404.012,"text":"那接下來要請教一下 其實大概也給各位看一下啦其實包括桃園的一些農路啦 包括這個邊坡的等等還有包括納瑪西亞的一樣提案跟這個道路的部分 希望各部會都能夠來加速那因為時間有限 在接下來我來請教一下部長 這個農業部長 陳部長留著就好 其他三位請回"},{"start":11405.454,"end":11429.009,"text":"馬太安溪這個部分其實現在大家還是在紅色警戒狀態那什麼時候可以解除掉我想那個其實在要去降從紅色警戒降級的時候大概有四個前提第一個部分就是它壩體上面的水流它是穩定的去溢流而沒有不會說有更大的一個變化那我先問這個目前這個狀況是可以的嗎"},{"start":11429.749,"end":11451.367,"text":"以現在的天候看起來它是一個穩定的溢流而且它的湖水現在所累積的那個比之前預估的還少那如果有遇到好大雨或遇到颱風再來的時候呢其實我們更擔心的是地震因為地震的時候很有可能會形成第二個驗測湖所以我們現在是持續的去做監控"},{"start":11451.647,"end":11464.313,"text":"所以他即使撤掉了紅色警戒還是會保留還是將來還是有可能隨時會密切注意對 我們監測是持續在做的那現在是紅色警戒那剛才說降低這個警戒的一個燈號的時候"},{"start":11466.636,"end":11482.955,"text":"第二個部分就是他下游的這些堤防或者是河道的疏進的工程是完成的然後相關的這些邊坡也然後最重要的是疏散撤離計畫是已經很完成的做一些我問一下那所以前三個都已經完成了嗎"},{"start":11484.144,"end":11504.686,"text":"前三個大概都現在水利事務都差不多完了現在就是說最後一個疏散撤離計畫這邊縣府這邊要做核定因為之前整個疏散撤離包括保全對象包括疏散的路線包括收容的這些處所那其實在前進協調署的時候那個總協調官他已經有做一些協助的部分"},{"start":11505.106,"end":11525.426,"text":"那相關的因為整個蘇戰撤離作為是由地方政府擬定跟執行所以就等這個部分的話就可能紅色就可以然後再觀察當時的天候是不是可以但是即使解除要紅色警戒還是必須要密切注意啦因為包括剛剛部長提到的地震甚至於包括如果遇到颱風或好大雨的話還是會有相當的一些像我們說"},{"start":11526.047,"end":11543.221,"text":"如果雨量超過200毫米的話我們會再度發射紅色警戒那如果地震超過5落的時候我們也會發布這些紅色警戒加細胞廣播還有海嘯廣播那當時的時候有人把這個責任推給部長說當時部長說這是安全的所以當時的狀況下是安全的嘛是嗎"},{"start":11544.061,"end":11566.58,"text":"我跟委員報告8月13號的時候大家討論的是洋流颱風以當時的水量所以我對外澄清你用8月13號去講現在的情況那是時間他本來就是一個不斷動態的因為隨著颱風來隨著好大雨他本來就是一個動態所以我也覺得一方面部長可能要一方面持續澄清另外一方面可能未來也要持續的對外提出更多的一個提醒就是說"},{"start":11566.82,"end":11585.443,"text":"任何這些狀況因為它都隨時在一個動態的一個狀態即使是今天安全也不代表明天就不會有新的狀況發生對 絕對是這樣我們的所有的對外的發布都會根據壩底現在的水流量跟壩底的邊坡的穩定性然後提供中下游的居民的一些警戒我最後一個問一下它是一個動態的調整"},{"start":11585.763,"end":11604.369,"text":"好 這隨時動態 也要隨時對外說明我最後請教一下 霸體跟清淤的部分現在有兩頭不同的方式一個是納入到這一次的風災的這個預算跟特別條例來處理另外一個是單獨在立那現在其實行政院整體是支持應該是納入到比較有效率比較快部長是這樣吧"},{"start":11605.069,"end":11621.465,"text":"是 我們現在是傾向於就是以農業部的理想我們傾向於用現在的特別預算去做追加的方式可能用丹納斯颱風 七二八份把這個桃花蓮這一次的把它一起納進來那增加250億的一個預算那其實來做是最快的啦是 因為整個馬太安颱風馬太安的那個災情"},{"start":11624.788,"end":11649.042,"text":"他不是說就是畫家災颱風引起的他其實是從之前的連續長期累積性的一個問題所以這次的颱風從但那次颱風0708 0728還有洋雨颱風其實都有陸陸續續的這些影響好 我們希望盡快的修正盡快的來把這些預算編列出來然後盡快來協助花蓮能夠盡速的來重建完成讓基民能夠有好的一個生活也希望委員支持好 一定支持謝謝"},{"start":11650.003,"end":11655.647,"text":"謝謝賴銳榮委員的質詢 謝謝我們也謝謝部長我們歡迎 我們邀請賴銳榮委員質詢謝謝主席有請台電總經理王耀廷我們交易部次長張亮萬堅還有我們的農業部部長我們邀請部長 次長還有總經理 謝謝"},{"start":11677.094,"end":11689.503,"text":"我想先從台電台電的一個議題來跟總經理做一個探討我想0706 0706丹納斯颱風重創整個就是我們台南嘉義縣這個其實"},{"start":11692.405,"end":11712.776,"text":"實在是非常非常的嚴重所以今天藉著這個機會跟總經理談到了強化電纜抗災的一個韌性是不是有機會分區分類的徹底改善那我想停電停水跟停信號是造成這一次台南史上最嚴重的一個災害我們看到了現在"},{"start":11713.757,"end":11724.082,"text":"的資料裡頭當天電線桿倒塌的有3499支這是在台南然後電線斷裂的有6965條還有我們的開關變壓器的一個損壞有696具事實上這個是破了紀錄我想非常謝謝台電其實"},{"start":11737.428,"end":11757.038,"text":"現在我一直就是感謝就是說當初就是整個受災的時候台電的同仁其實來搶救這一些那個電線的一個恢復那其實極端氣候的一個電纜的一個地下化我們應該要討論的是一個分歧的防護就像說"},{"start":11758.058,"end":11782.59,"text":"排水加的地方應該是要優先 譬如說省道 譬如說市區的一個道路然後易淹水的區域 它地勢低像我的鞋甲北門將軍 我根本不敢要求你們就是說把我的那個電纜地下化在這裡我要特別提醒那個總經理你現在在所有的一個丹納斯的總預算裡頭台電拿到多少的一個經費"},{"start":11784.691,"end":11807.368,"text":"台電拿到102億那謝謝委員在那段時間就是7月6號到19號那段時間對台電的協助好 謝謝總經理那這樣子102億你的排序呢你的排序要怎麼做因為本來是台南跟嘉義這些地方是重創的最嚴重結果現在這麼多人竟然分了"},{"start":11807.808,"end":11829.438,"text":"台中也来了那彰化也来了那事实上当然他们也有他们的一个需要可是我们这是迫切需求的那不知道总经理你怎么分配跟委员报告那我们的预算分成两大类是一类就是您关心的那个地下化的这个议题对那这个部分我们是会在比较"},{"start":11830.138,"end":11854.227,"text":"重要的一些潰線上面先做地下化處理那你會優先從台南跟嘉義優先來處理嗎因為台南跟嘉義這次是受創最嚴重的所以它復原方面的經費相對的就需要比較多的當然是優先排嘛那我再請教總經理這個500隻的一級大電感你會放在什麼地方你怎麼分配呢"},{"start":11854.847,"end":11870.272,"text":"至于那500只的一级电感的部分就是空旷地区所以包括像嘉义台南的刚您提到的雪甲北门那个地区我们会先从那边开始做一些一级电感的强化"},{"start":11870.652,"end":11889.694,"text":"好 一級電感的強化就是從海邊開始嗎是好 謝謝總經理我想你要把這個後續的一些順序三個月內就是把這個報告交出來好不好跟委員報告因為我們是各個區處同時做所以各個區處同時都在進行這個一級電感的強化好"},{"start":11890.014,"end":11903.249,"text":"那我現在更要看你的一個分配你到底有沒有優先把我們這些重災區納進去呢總經理我現在就要看了而不是三個月三個月可能緩不及急了你已經分配下去了"},{"start":11904.439,"end":11919.072,"text":"這個部分因為我們要把預算不是預算 就是整個計畫就復原計畫要報到經濟部那等經濟部核定了之後那我們這個會很快就公佈出來你現在要先給我們看你那個核定你不曉得怎麼分配這麼多人要分你的錢"},{"start":11920.413,"end":11937.502,"text":"對啊 我們都是被重擊的你現在是裁判你怎麼計分 這個非常重要我們大家都怕 迷迷茫茫結果你把那些安全的選手結果都有分配到結果我們受傷最嚴重的反而是分配的比較少這個是本席關心的 總經理"},{"start":11938.382,"end":11962.748,"text":"好那個次長那個教育部次長在這一次的一個風災那實在是那個總經理請回那個不幸中的萬幸因為在這一次的風災裡頭剛好是在暑假當中那我們辦了兩次的一個校園座談會我去了二十幾個學校那在這裡頭我們看到真的是不幸中的一個那個"},{"start":11963.948,"end":11987.204,"text":"很幸運剛好是在暑假當中那孩子是沒有上課的不然我們看到了很多那種就是電線電線都扯在一塊的時候那個一不小心就可能造成校園的一個火災在這裡我想教育部在這個緊急搶修的那個這個搶修險裡頭分兩批給了台南1億6623萬元第一批第二批"},{"start":11987.964,"end":12012.06,"text":"都幫助了很多個學校可是你的復健工程27所學校提報的復健需求量這個8500萬這個叫那個台南市的教育局在8月27號已經送上去了支持到現在到現在教育部都沒有把這個搶修搶錢專案這些錢給台南市政府所以我想請次長做一個說明好不好"},{"start":12013.007,"end":12024.466,"text":"对我想那个抢修抢险的部分第一段已经都给了那现在陆续都还有在审因为那个条例里面还有钱还在审那现在是复原的部分对复原的部分还在审查"},{"start":12025.369,"end":12053.792,"text":"他就是他復原了你要快啊你要快啊現在學校都已經開學了所以大家都在等這個救命錢怎麼恢復這個家園這禮拜應該可以完成這個禮拜可以完成好 謝謝市長謝謝主席我想那個我們農業部農業部就是針對丹拉斯風災的這個災險我們重塑 重寬 重減還有淺品項的一個農業是不是在下個禮拜再跟部長做一個請教謝謝禮拜三還可以再問"},{"start":12054.592,"end":12079.484,"text":"禮拜三還有部長專案報告謝謝謝謝賴慧媛委員謝謝部長我們請郭國文委員謝謝主席有請內政部董事還有包括我們公共工程委員會李副我們請次長還有副主委"},{"start":12084.232,"end":12100.767,"text":"委員好董事我不希望你們觀察到這次兩次的風災整個中央的這個步伐有些不一樣是顯相對而言花蓮的部分的步驟就比較快那為什麼這樣個案的差異就因為一個沒有一個通案的機制所造成"},{"start":12101.488,"end":12119.331,"text":"因為在個案的差異之時我會造成就是因為我災防法的這個內容當中定位在協調各縣市也就是中央是用協調而不是指揮是 知道了解意思嗎所以當台南的時候變指揮所到地方到花蓮的時候就變協調所協調所就依照這個災防法"},{"start":12119.591,"end":12134.104,"text":"那簡單的講照災防法還有許許多多該修的地方應該把那位階有所提升功能要強化然後要通案有一個機制而不是每次都是臨時組合所以說我個人是認為應該要修災防法不知道次長的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":12134.784,"end":12162.49,"text":"那謝謝委員的提醒我們目前也在討論就是說相關災防法的修正以及經過這幾次的混合型的天災複製合型天災的一個狀態那當然就是說我還是要強調就是說災防法跟地質法裡面都有明確規定事實上地方政府本來就是在第一線我當然知道地方政府撇開不了責任但是地方政府要擺爛的時候或量能不足的時候中央就是一個很關鍵的角色嘛"},{"start":12162.93,"end":12178.605,"text":"麻煩回去好好思考一下將來我們就再回來做對話我請李副好 謝謝李副是這樣子我就說前後有差別的地方就差別在哪裡那相對的剝奪感就出現了你看同樣是死亡"},{"start":12180.196,"end":12209.216,"text":"到了這個花蓮就變100在台南就80也不過是兩短不到兩個月之間的差別而已那同樣是要運用善款為什麼花蓮就要給他100萬然後台南就80多增加20萬就是善款我想衛福部在這邊對不對善款的部分我也去查過了目前整個衛福部的專務當中還剩下1億多那台南離來的也不過9個人"},{"start":12211.099,"end":12222.298,"text":"有差這二十萬嗎二十萬乘以九不夠兩百萬欸市長 李副國之所請教你是因為你長期在台南待嘛你很清楚嘛 你認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":12224.841,"end":12250.283,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下啦這個因為主要是這個慰問金的部分還是來自於震災基金會的來源對啊對啊對啊震災基金會因為那時候其實像兩個災害其實給人家感覺就是基金會那時候對外的募款帳戶都有上款會影響所以我們也會尊重震災基金會這邊的一個裁員的規劃那個就請林次回去研究一下嘛好不好就上款的部分嘛可以彈性處理的部分"},{"start":12250.543,"end":12268.204,"text":"包括委員這邊政財基金會當然這些給付的標準還有這次的給法都是行政院這邊的公告不過委員這邊也像剛剛委員所說到的我們在這個丹納斯颱風的這個專款裡面當時是5億3千多萬那現在是合發掉4億1千多萬那這一億多"},{"start":12268.684,"end":12296.935,"text":"我們再跟 就是說包含這幾位董事長還有跟行政院這邊來做請示好不好再給本席答覆 謝謝林次然後李副我再請教你一下另外一個部分你也在災區待那麼久你看這一次的這個特別條例當中有一條預備金這丹奈斯颱風特別條例當中有一億呢就用在車輛受損的這個部分登記但是用的範圍只限於花蓮你看喔 汽車的部分5萬然後呢 機車的部分1萬"},{"start":12297.975,"end":12315.639,"text":"那相對台南呢 中央這筆預算都沒有用到你覺得合理嗎他是取作單耐斯重建特別條例預算喔台南只有台南市政府汽車1萬然後另外機車5000而且台南的部分的這個汽車的部分還錯過了這個貨物稅上路的時間前後來來加起來10萬"},{"start":12321.221,"end":12344.217,"text":"吳卓 是你要不要回去好好想一下這我們回去來研究一下對 一眼不一定花得完啦一樣是涵蓋災區的範圍七月跟九月嘛不應該有這樣的差別的待遇嘛好不好 這我們來研議一下這可以嗎 這個也很重要很關鍵啦好不好那訊息給本席答覆啦 是我最後一分鐘問一下那個NCC好不好 陳主委"},{"start":12347.384,"end":12373.92,"text":"陳主委裡面走我明明跟你講這個NCC三大電信業者的部分號稱在7月20號的時候就恢復95%我在表格上面有165%但是它所謂的有其實沒有包括品質慢或品質差只管有不求好啦但事實上在8月的時候本息在災區跑的時候還是常常斷訊也以至於說8月7號的時候會開放漫遊的結果"},{"start":12375.901,"end":12397.021,"text":"結果要求說不要從7月20號來定位成補償的一個基準然後到8月7號就有三家聯合抵制他們不聽從因為你不是補助單位你是管理單位啊所以你這個部分你應該想辦法你後面還有一個所謂的災害漫遊機制作業要點的時候是不是應該把災害賠償計畫一併納進去呢我知道他們三家都不瞭你啊"},{"start":12398.407,"end":12417.832,"text":"跟委員報告這一部分我們在我們大概有前後兩次找他們來開會現在他們從寬從寬從優惠認定現在台南加南地區還有高雄地區大概有超過10萬的那個那個日期優惠的用戶有適用然後大概有1000多萬不是7月20號到8月7號"},{"start":12420.953,"end":12446.938,"text":"在漫遊他這個部分應該在延後處理要擴大最重要的部分本席提醒你要強化韌性的目的在於他資本要不要支出要不要投入最重要你要要求他建立加入這個共同廣告的建構當中才有可能否則一直附著在台電風險一樣很高我沒有要求他在跟相關單位配合在特別是在都會區一定要盡可能地下化"},{"start":12447.677,"end":12473.79,"text":"特別是不是都會區啦可能會造成孤島巷你都要面對啦好不好好沒問題謝謝謝謝郭國文委員質詢謝謝謝謝我們所有單位我們今天中午不休息延長開會時間到上午詢答的委員結束之後我們再行休息那我們現在請林德福委員質詢那林德福委員不在武麗華委員質詢"},{"start":12475.936,"end":12479.701,"text":"林德福委員林德福委員不在我們請吳麗華委員資訊謝謝主席有請經濟部長我們請部長"},{"start":12500.702,"end":12524.696,"text":"部長好其實我談到災害復原其實等一下要問的面向蠻廣的涉及到各部會但是因為我最後的訴求是有關電網跟無人機所以特別請部長部長我們都知道全球的災害頻繁已經是一個不可逆的現象所以在立法院有這麼多的委員"},{"start":12525.396,"end":12543.661,"text":"不斷的就各種訴求來做質詢其實我們希望的就是不要一而再再而三的不斷的質詢不斷的質詢但是我們都沒有看到結果我們看看這一次假設以丹納斯來講它橫掃全台其實造成了72萬戶的停電"},{"start":12545.822,"end":12560.69,"text":"我們有在新聞那畫面我們都看得到台電員工不分日夜沒日沒夜的在那個地方搶修大家看了也很難過那民間的投入也很多那我自己呢就丹納斯"},{"start":12561.85,"end":12581.982,"text":"災害的一些範圍例如像阿里山鄉或者是高雄的那馬下桃園茂林一直到屏東的三地門霧台等等等到台東幾乎有災害的園鄉我大概都有去看過那我要特別就是要講看一下這個畫面其實我到了現場"},{"start":12583.383,"end":12612.621,"text":"災民看到我們來會抱著我們哭甚至是像這些公路局的這些員工有時候我們只是輕輕的跟他們講說辛苦了他們也會在我們面前哽咽 落淚我們到了區公所去關心關懷您也可以看到像這個畫面上的這是課長他也會掉眼淚可以感受得到其實大家的壓力都很大"},{"start":12613.702,"end":12628.4,"text":"那在這個當中其實我們特別就是要關心的就是到底我有一個畫面讓我很難過就是我在那個娜瑪夏的時候剛好衛生所的主任也在那邊跟我們一起開會"},{"start":12629.481,"end":12654.421,"text":"他就跟我提到說裡面都已經斷了三天很想要上去送藥那有沒有可能調空勤總隊來幫忙就是運補藥物那因為我們的回答有一點點的保守那他就默默的就說知道了他就離開那個房間後來我們就看到他就背著背包"},{"start":12654.941,"end":12671.09,"text":"就自己徒步上山我要表達的是說大家對於這些不斷提出的訴求有時候我們看不到很快的反應所以有時候他們變得對我們的政府的回應已經有一個刻板印象"},{"start":12671.79,"end":12697.623,"text":"然後就默默的承受我覺得這不是很好的一個現象所以我很想知道說像之前那個都已經是四年前明巴克路橋斷的時候其實曾經有學術單位那交通部有開放授權給他們專案他們就把芒果一箱一箱的把它運出去用無人機所以我們不太曉得說"},{"start":12699.384,"end":12717.177,"text":"當我們全面有這些需求的時候到底什麼時候我們可以盼到無人機來執行這些原鄉救災的工作他能夠就緒準備好然後呢等到災害發生的時候他能夠立刻的啟動想要請教一下部長您的看法"},{"start":12718.11,"end":12745.789,"text":"保安委員現在我們應該從明年開始就約編列各個單位軍方的部分是另外會編五萬台的無人機的經費是對我們經濟部來講的話油塘水電我們的因為它是屬於關鍵金屬設施我們也都會編巡防巡檢等等一些情況其他部會包括內政部也一樣他們都會編所以那個量就會擴充起來"},{"start":12747.489,"end":12775.968,"text":"之前也有委員關心說那你平常是不是要有一些演練那我想我們這個部分會跟行政院來做說明如果演練把這個項目放進去的話我想那個就會更好謝謝部長因為我自己也關心過也開過記者會也問過要怎麼執訓怎麼考照其實確實法規有一些需要鬆綁的部分但是另外一個就是我特別關心就是那個斷水斷路的問題以這一次的那個霧露立道"},{"start":12777.284,"end":12791.589,"text":"它在9月23發生這樣的一個斷路然後同時斷電斷網可是一直到9月25號部落的人爬到山上有微弱訊號的地方把照片災礦"},{"start":12792.91,"end":12807.995,"text":"把它放送出來我們才接到陳情我們感到很意外這個還是屬於省道呢 公路局呢那一般的道路怎麼辦所以在這個部分當然我要特別感謝因為像我們聯絡"},{"start":12808.955,"end":12827.61,"text":"NCC 中華電信或者是空勤總隊他們都有很快速的在當天接到我們的陳情之後把那些需要洗腎的患者還有在當天就隔天就馬上恢復通訊當然我們是覺得做得很快但是我們還是要講一下因為裡面斷電斷訊所以"},{"start":12831.273,"end":12858.715,"text":"過去台電有推動這一些防災型的微電網但是後來我們看到好像就沒有了是因為沒有這個經費嗎因為我們現在有一個新的陳情我們到部落送物資他們最喜歡的是發電機我們要到處募發電機給他們政府一直說要推微電網甚至是有一些有微電網的部落他們好像也不知道要怎麼讓它發揮功能部長這個部分未來可以怎麼做"},{"start":12859.691,"end":12883.678,"text":"這一次的這個特別預算裡面有8億特別就是要做一個示範性的那如果這個示範性覺得做得很好的話那我們有經過盤點事實上內政部有經過盤點220幾處的所謂的孤島的部分其中有50幾處他們說有這樣的需求那這9個示範性做得好的話我們就會推廣到那50幾個單位就是50幾個地區我是這樣想災害"},{"start":12889.76,"end":12915.777,"text":"颱風進來或者地震進來我們都不知道無法預測在從哪裡進來哪一些地方會受災啦我們是希望說這樣的經費希望能夠編組能夠全面的來做全面的預防因為這已經是不可逆的我們勢必會面對所以希望說經濟部這個地方能夠再來看看怎麼樣加速那我希望說大概兩個禮拜之內可以得到這些答案嗎"},{"start":12916.337,"end":12936.534,"text":"好 我們跟內政部來討論一下好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝伍麗華委員質詢謝謝 謝謝部長我們現在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們現在請高金素梅高金素梅高金素梅委員不在我們請徐宇珍徐宇珍徐宇珍委員不在我們請蔡易瑜委員質詢"},{"start":12946.018,"end":12965.749,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是不是先請農業部跟林保署農業部林保署那部長不用喔部長對部長也要我要幫你休息一下沒辦法林保署謝謝好我簡單問部長部長因為整個丹阿斯颱風那"},{"start":12971.274,"end":12992.504,"text":"之後可以是說重創了整個嘉義尤其是山區的一個旅遊因為大家如果聽到風災阿里山公路有出狀況的話基本上並不會只有在災情期間影響觀光客他會後續影響的連續一段的一個時間因為大家都會想說不知道這個山路火候的狀況如何所以就會"},{"start":12992.984,"end":13012.082,"text":"大家會持續觀望一下所以這一個暑假整個阿里山的觀光大概是就沒有以往的理想這個是大家看得到的所以我們現在是基本上要加速恢復地方的一個觀光產業那我第一個想要問的就是說我們阿里山林鐵"},{"start":13014.201,"end":13038.153,"text":"上次我在辦考察的時候我有要求說阿里山的這一個森林鐵路應該要加開區間車因為有區間車才可以讓一些觀光客他不用急著就是要當天往返他可能可以選擇說我坐區間車那我就可以在阿里山或者是跟竹崎、本紀由或者是跟梅山這邊可以做一個這個"},{"start":13040.595,"end":13051.005,"text":"點跟點的旅遊 不用說我就一個去 去旅遊然後要趕到回來的車就要東港再回來所以區間車有這樣的一個好處那所以想要請教部長整個區間車的一個規劃狀況呢"},{"start":13053.206,"end":13072.013,"text":"我想現委員的一個質詢因為阿里山是一個台灣非常棒的一個風險區那誠如剛才委員說的區間車是可以帶動人潮到不同的點位所以我們現在規劃有兩個部分一個是有關於奮起湖的區間車一個是竹騎的區間車那奮起湖的區間車我們是用新買的這些生理號"},{"start":13072.873,"end":13098.789,"text":"的一個火車的車廂然後現在正在進行測試那預計在明年的中大概明年的中大概六月之前會完成完成了以後原來的這個所謂的所謂的那叫做阿里山號就會轉成一般的區間車所以在一台生理號嘛藍色那一台生理號很漂亮很漂亮的生理號未來它就會取代了過去的阿里山號那阿里山號會轉成區間車這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":13101.09,"end":13120.472,"text":"是這樣子然後另外一個是足旗的部分那足旗車站現在正在蓋嘛那蓋好大概他們預計是115年蓋好那蓋好以後我們相關的區間車也會在116年上半年度就會來通行那我們希望說這是預計的時程我們希望說能夠越快是越好的這樣的話帶動一些觀光人潮"},{"start":13121.313,"end":13148.254,"text":"部長我想這個區間車真的是很重要因為點跟點之間的旅遊讓大家的停留時間越久而且阿里山事實上是很耐玩的這麼耐玩的地方你不讓他有機會去停留這個就很可惜好不好所以這個我想我們未來會持續推動部長跟林鐵柱可以先回我們現在請經濟部以及交通部的觀光署我們請經濟部還有交通部觀光署"},{"start":13150.202,"end":13175.919,"text":"交通部次長好了交通部次長就是還是延續剛剛的問題從丹麥斯造成的這一個整個觀光產業那可以看出整個國旅是真的是下降而且現在國旅的天數創了10年的新低那很多人選擇旅遊的時候可能會到外國去玩所以大概國旅的狀況是不好的"},{"start":13176.88,"end":13193.93,"text":"在台南嘉義又因為丹納斯之後那整個觀光也是非常的受創尤其尤其是在山區啦那我想要請教的是說觀光署你們現在對於整個地方觀光的旅遊的一個恢復你們有怎樣的計劃嗎來交通部"},{"start":13200.335,"end":13222.994,"text":"主席 報告委員我們除了就是說我們管理處的這些設施事實上已經都盡快恢復那目前我們大概是行銷就是扭轉遊客的部分這目前是阿里山是可以適合旅遊那當然我們會配合第四季一些活動的部分去引導客人的趕快回到阿里山來旅遊那我們會監測目前的一個"},{"start":13223.715,"end":13244.301,"text":"所謂的住宿的部分目前是衣後的部分事實上是有一點往上升那可能要給市場一點點時間我想這部分我們要恢復他們來阿里山旅遊的一個信心好 就是交通部這邊你們因為我們這一次是有編特別預算那兩年的時間讓你們執行所以我們希望這個特別預算至少這一筆錢這個是九億的嘛"},{"start":13247.243,"end":13274.026,"text":"這個19億你們一定要好好運用在這一次的災區怎麼去行銷觀光怎麼去讓整個旅遊業讓他可以再再度蓬勃發展起來這件事很重要是我跟委員說明一下原則上因為觀光裡頭其實都有一個區域所以阿里山其實是一個很棒的一個觀光圈所以我們會協助這觀光圈的業者如何多元的辦理多元的活動或行銷那當然"},{"start":13274.406,"end":13295.876,"text":"而我們也有必要的時候也會補助地方政府有關相關的一個觀光活動好 那我就直接來講啦我直接來講那這個跟經濟部有關那交通部也是有關就是因為現在日本大阪市博那這一個科技館也就是我們大家說的我們台灣在那邊的展覽館"},{"start":13296.696,"end":13325.525,"text":"那這個展覽館呢他在試博後他就即將會告他的一個階段性任務就結束了那這個經濟部在這裡事實上也是投資了20億然後造成很多很多的觀光客很多人都去的去大阪試博後都耳勒說所有的展館看起來台灣館最好最耐看而且最有它的一個意義整個把台灣的行銷從台灣的產業啦台灣走向AI科技島"},{"start":13326.405,"end":13352.3,"text":"哇 大家都覺得很讚那我現在具體來做一個建議啦因為在過去的時候我們也有跟前部長 郭志輝前部長也有跟他建議當時他沒有反對就是說明年的台灣燈會明年台灣燈會在嘉義那我們有沒有機會把大阪市博的這一個科技館這一個台灣館把它帶回來明年的燈會明年的燈會可以一併的展出呢那這是不是請經濟部長"},{"start":13355.714,"end":13365.988,"text":"讓他促成說明年的台灣燈會也可以讓我們台灣自己的人也可以來看到去大阪市博才看得到的這樣的一個台灣的一個館"},{"start":13367.313,"end":13385.308,"text":"台灣的場館方委員 我們的確有在討論也跟行政院在討論說什麼樣的部分要遷回來整個館遷回來大概不太可能因為他要拆掉那個地要還給他們大阪那回來的項目是什麼然後地點在哪裡然後時間有多長"},{"start":13386.315,"end":13411.494,"text":"这个的确有在讨论当中对 那我现在就是说因为回来可能未来会放在某一个地点这我们现在不知道嘛那我们是说至少在明年的台湾灯会的一个展览的项目里面大家一样可以看得到这一次大阪世博这个台湾馆的展览的一个内容那可不可以吗如果有展演的部分或者是因为它要有一个空间"},{"start":13412.489,"end":13437.231,"text":"有一個密閉的空間我們再討論一下看看有什麼樣的項目它是在密閉空間空間我們地方可以盤整出來但是如果有這樣的一個館的一個展出我覺得對於明年我們整個燈會的一個能看度又會大幅的提升我跟經濟部來協助做這一塊交通部這邊也可以協助這樣好不好"},{"start":13438.001,"end":13447.746,"text":"我們也來配合好那這件事把它促成拜託主席可以再給我1分鐘嗎來我們再請工程會那經濟部跟交通部可以先回謝謝好"},{"start":13455.564,"end":13477.21,"text":"工程會那我還是長話短說因為這一次我們知道這個特別預算特別條例裡面它涉及到了兩年內必須要執行因為這個預算就只框了兩年所以時間是很趕的但是我們知道這個災後是百廢待興很多工程要推動但是現在工程的推動會遇到一個障礙就是說"},{"start":13477.81,"end":13501.867,"text":"因為我們基於這個採購須知他的叫做預付的款項不得預30%但是我們知道說現在欠缸很嚴重事實上對很多承包商來說他就裱一案然後他我就先拿30%而已對他來說他沒有辦法有能量去多做一點因為現在欠缸所以很多他的下包商都是跟他要現金"},{"start":13502.888,"end":13524.666,"text":"他就是要付現金 所以對他來說他的整個能量不足他沒有辦法像以前一樣周轉順利所以我們是不是能夠在特別條例的時候然後打破這個採購須知30%的限制讓廠商更有能量去把一些承包的工程更快的時間把它完成"},{"start":13526.615,"end":13536.115,"text":"跟委員報告 其實預付款這件事情當然是方便廠商但是預付款也根據我們的押寶辦法裡面廠商要提出同額的擔保"},{"start":13537.523,"end":13561.958,"text":"那所以提高這個預付款的比例到底是不是真的能夠增加廠商的靈活度解決廠商的問題這個我們可以待會去研議對因為同樣的嘛因為他必須要提擔保啊所以同樣意思是說你讓他可以讓預付款讓他可以增加因為他主要是他的現金流不足那為什麼會現金流不足呢就是現在他的小包商都要拿現金跟以前晚一號用開票的比較不一樣他們現在要現金"},{"start":13566.544,"end":13577.639,"text":"這個還是源到於說現在缺工啦 欠工的問題啦所以這個問題我們要整併解決然後這一次的災後的這樣一個重建條例我們才推得快啊 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":13580.239,"end":13596.06,"text":"谢谢义渝委员也谢谢我们公共工程委员会我想刚义渝提到这个部分因为我们刚好上个礼拜我们有这个经济委员会去考察我想义渝的意见非常好就是说怎么让我们台南"},{"start":13596.76,"end":13624.303,"text":"我們台灣也可以看到我們世博的驕傲我們真的去看到是我們用AI科技在簡單的一個狀態之下講了我們的生命力介紹了我們的地理環境從山跟水然後也介紹了我們的護國神山我們的晶片所以這個部分我們要用什麼方式或許在那個地方大家會感受不一樣可是我們如果拉回到台灣"},{"start":13625.003,"end":13641.642,"text":"我們要用什麼方式不同的呈現因為AI它是一個變動的所以我覺得這個部分是經濟部可以去考量的就是說同樣在燈會當中是不是有一個這個仿我們世博的場館但是裡面的內容要做調整"},{"start":13642.362,"end":13661.43,"text":"因為如果在台灣介紹台南的阿里山台灣的阿里山有山可能人家的感受都不高可是我們要怎麼改變我覺得這個部分可以去思考一下謝謝我們的義瑜謝謝謝謝我們現在請陳超明委員陳超明陳超明委員不在我們請盧憲一委員"},{"start":13673.26,"end":13697.078,"text":"主席有請我們公路局公路局公路局公路局公路局交通部來市長我們副局長公路局副局長副主好我們副局長來副局長公路局副局長我們聯絡人通知一下"},{"start":13705.343,"end":13731.508,"text":"是不是臨時委員沒關係那我們就開始就針對我們當然是颱風這個問題我們原鄉只要遇到颱風大概就是我們沒有水沒有電沒有路沒有通訊所以我們如何提升部落面對災害的整體韌性我希望我們的部會長官都能夠體諒或者說去體恤我們族人的生活那我們看到我們這次"},{"start":13732.95,"end":13747.103,"text":"提到這個颱風的時候最常接到電話就是我們海端鄉跟桃園區桃園區是高雄市這一端也就是甲仙公墓段那海端這邊是我們觀山公墓段那我大概去了海端兩次如果"},{"start":13749.085,"end":13773.784,"text":"长官有去的话大概就知道那边的场状也就是说几乎那个路都不能走了而且是大概他用了大概一个礼拜的时间目前是勉强的抢通不过道路损坏的程度如果你没有去你会无法想象用讲的或是照片还是没有办法去形容所以这个台二十线这个部分目前公路局的规划是怎么样尤其是海端这一段"},{"start":13777.166,"end":13791.436,"text":"報告委員我們這個台二死這個部分的省道的部分我們就是剛剛委員談到這個問題我們會一併要求我們當地的公務段在設計的時候在再修的工程一併納入去做改善特別強調182K跟189K"},{"start":13793.898,"end":13819.728,"text":"然後南橫沿線的部落長期的道路積水跟排水不良的問題他希望說你們在施工或者是說做排水系統的時候能夠跟他們溝通因為他們是長期生活在那裡的所以他們會知道水線怎麼走那如果說你們按照你們的意見可是部落的意見不同的時候我覺得你們應該要溝通一下因為他們常常講說他們做他們的我們講他們不聽會有這方面的一個疑慮"},{"start":13820.353,"end":13847.499,"text":"会让人让人家觉得说你们又不是这个这里的人我们比你了解所以希望有这方面的体恤然后这次我们这个有一个烟色湖的专项的监测希望你可以纳入台20线的这个沿线的这个边坡的一个监测机制为什么呢因为上次在更早之前立道有一个边坡滑落结果后来我们请了我们的矿业中心来讲来了解地方的地址的时候"},{"start":13847.799,"end":13857.865,"text":"他竟然說要請地方政府出這筆監測的錢所以既然這次我們當他是颱風有這個煙射火的一個長期監測的機制的話我希望把台20縣也納入他們長期來監測讓知道說哪個邊坡比較危險"},{"start":13863.53,"end":13881.996,"text":"是委員我想那個有關這種山區道路的邊坡的相關的防治這是其實是公路局長期在做所以委員剛才特別提到的這樣的一個建議了我想我們會把它納在後續的復建工程裡面沒有錢要找地方政府我們這樣的話就沒有辦法跟地方交代"},{"start":13883.215,"end":13896.323,"text":"我想委員不會啦只要是省道的要防制的邊坡公路局交通部都會拿起來當作自己的事來做一定是來做那我們現在請NCC好不好請NCC"},{"start":13900.202,"end":13920.778,"text":"刚才吴委员有提过就是关于维好门部落常常断电断讯的部分那我希望这个维电网可以设置在意志在地区比如说阿里山 纳马夏 桃园这些地区因为只要它一台风我们的网络我们的LINE上面显现的都是这些地区的一些诉求那这次他们有特别提到一个比如说它断电的时候"},{"start":13921.298,"end":13938.485,"text":"它造成的财产的损失比如说它可能是做生意的结果它准备的所有的食材全部都报销掉了结果没有球场无门它甚至可能准备了一些要给游客吃的所以我觉得这个部分应该要纳入赔偿的机制可以吗"},{"start":13939.945,"end":13961.454,"text":"根委報告NC這邊是負責通訊這一塊像這次海端綠道跟霧露這一塊原來是因為路不通所以三家電信業者沒辦法進去搶修那後來在指揮中心那邊卸調之下透過空前總隊吊掛OneWeb的衛星模組進去把中華電信救回來之後那另外兩家進行漫遊那未來長期性的規劃我們會在"},{"start":13962.875,"end":13991.037,"text":"這個災害潛勢區那邊會增強來增建高抗災的基地台不好意思 還有最後一個問題關於檢疫自來水的問題請水利署檢疫自來水的問題在花蓮濁西鄉的清水部落他們反應就是說只要是颱風水質就不佳管理委員會就權責不清供水管理不公我希望"},{"start":13992,"end":14013.476,"text":"这样的一个问题能不能在以后在做一个补助相关补助要点的时候可以纳入专业团队来辅导操作跟维护不然他们会互踢皮球也不是相公所也不是县政府的然后是他们管委会的然后他们三个组织会没有办法互相相容所以造成我们地方族人的一些用水的一些权益的损失"},{"start":14014.301,"end":14031.108,"text":"包委員這個部分本來就是應該要來積極辦理的部分現在水利署本來就有一個輔導團隊我們也跟縣市政府一起合作來成立一些整體專案的輔導團隊所以委員所談的我們會全力照辦好 謝謝非常謝謝"},{"start":14032.048,"end":14050.819,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝盧秀玉委員的質詢謝謝署長我們請NCC那個嫩性的通訊真的很重要這幾次災害下來這個是變成大家沒有辦法去控制的一個部分所以我覺得我們的民間業者"},{"start":14051.719,"end":14076.086,"text":"还有我们的中华电信到底要怎么加强虽然我们在这一次特别条例里面特别预算有编了补助可是他们自己要尽多少的力量不是我们补助给他们自己就不用动了对啊他们都是演唱会摆在演唱会用那是赚钱可是我们所有的通讯品质他们要帮我们照顾"},{"start":14077.413,"end":14093.601,"text":"所以這個部分我們也請NCC在一個月把我們所有相關通訊如何處理強化任性的部分報到我們委員會來好 謝謝我們現在請陳冠廷委員質詢陳冠廷委員你好 我們請部長跟台電"},{"start":14104.711,"end":14105.273,"text":"來我們請經濟部長還有台電謝謝"},{"start":14112.78,"end":14140.106,"text":"周委員好部長好部長我先肯定就是稍早看到一些相關的新聞就是過去我們有協調台塑說不要再去跟俄羅斯再去購買他們的親友那我還是一樣這個肯定但是以後也要注意到有些相關的制裁對俄羅斯的一些制裁各個歐盟國家也好或者是美國那我們都要注意一下那有些是在法規內的當然是也"},{"start":14140.586,"end":14158.692,"text":"要去注意那有些是在我們可以去勸說在對整個國家利益有幫助的那也記得要去注意這些相關的議題不過今天我是要講關於這個電纜地下化的這個專案執行進度的追蹤那這一次其實剛才許多委員都已經有提到那全台有超過92萬戶"},{"start":14160.313,"end":14184.02,"text":"来停电那有3000多只这个电线杆倒塌那我们家的仲裁区有些乡间是停电长达10天所以未来不管是刚才提到的微电网或者是这个除电的相关设施特别是在重要的这个机关他们自己要有一个备源我这次看到台风过去之后那有一些乡公所它甚至是整栋乡公所都没有电的"},{"start":14184.44,"end":14189.886,"text":"那甚至旁邊的消防隊他也是沒有相關的這個備援那連這個通信都有出現問題那"},{"start":14191.95,"end":14215.994,"text":"這個之外我有看到說我們立法院通過的特別預算裡面經濟部有獲得187億元那裡面的電網韌性的這個建設是匡列110億那我們在地方的協調會上面得到的消息是關於災後重建的特別條例中它會撥補我們這邊嘉義全縣大概是8.4億來去做電燃地消化的工程那預計是要在116年前完成"},{"start":14216.354,"end":14230.346,"text":"那如果是在116年前完成的話那台電就必須在114年就要完成設計115年就要去動工所以這個時間點都是這個環環相扣而且是都不能夠出錯那我今天要追蹤的就是關於這個經費的執行進度"},{"start":14232.168,"end":14248.456,"text":"那從風災後到現在我已經開了三梯次的協調會那第一次是在中埔鄉公所就是三個鄉中埔泛路竹起提出了有八件抑制災的地下化的提案那第二第三梯次分別是在我們嘉義的新港大林"},{"start":14249.116,"end":14266.472,"text":"还有这个西口那各自都有提出的六件六件总计是加起来是20件那三个T4就是20件那总共8.4亿元目前我们拨补给台电的进度是怎么样是已经全数拨付还是分批拨付还是现在还在行政程序当中"},{"start":14268.95,"end":14283.442,"text":"跟委員報告整個預算的撥給台電是還在進行當中但是台電的工程的設計跟規劃已經在進行了所以我們會用最快的速度趕快發包"},{"start":14284.102,"end":14310.462,"text":"然后来执行刚才委员提到的那几件的工程的执行设计规划已经开始在进行已经在做了那因为经过协调会他们都是各公所他们先仔细评估过后那确定可能是意志在区那才会提出来那也有跟台电一起开始协调会那我想请教一下未来贵部在或者是台电你们在评估可行性的时候标准是什么就是"},{"start":14310.962,"end":14323.397,"text":"公所的標準就是它就是一自在的地方所以它才要把它提出來嘛那會不會有這種標準落差的就是說地方認為這是非常需要的但中央會評估說不可行那這個標準的落差點會在哪裡"},{"start":14324.133,"end":14343.725,"text":"各位報告我們的整個的標準是全台灣一致因為就是說這一次的預算只有80億只有80億所以我們不可能說每一個縣市政府或地方提出來的這些地下化的區域都可以滿足大家所以我們會評估第一個就是它必須是迎風面"},{"start":14345.185,"end":14373.093,"text":"地下化的部分第一个是银封面我们一定是要在银封面的容易自灾的地区先做第二个是我匮线编电所出口的这些线路我要先地下化再来就是一些两层线的那些类似这种的我们有分优先顺序至于为了美观等等的那些那个就不在我们这一次80亿的范围之内好 我只是要再次强调就是说比方说有一些我们的提出来的案件它过去被评估可能不是自灾地区但是后来"},{"start":14373.633,"end":14401.253,"text":"他發現到說原來他不是因為颱風的關聯而是因為風帶來一些鹽分的關係導致整個這個電線港他一直都這個失效的狀況那所以這個部分也可能會需要來去做地下化那他可能不是因風面他可能是有其他的因素在那這也是為什麼相公所會提出來那這點特別也要跟這一個台電公司還有我們的部長來跟來強調一下就是這一次的地下化那"},{"start":14402.034,"end":14416.576,"text":"其實除了嘉義以外 雲嘉南地區都是非常的殷殷其盼那是希望說藉由這次機會趕快把我們的這個防災的能力把它提高 謝謝謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢 謝謝我們謝謝部長我們現在請洪孟凱委員質詢好 主席謝謝 麻煩請經濟部公部長我們請部長 謝謝"},{"start":14437.119,"end":14461.346,"text":"部長好 部長本期的問題跟我們今天召委其實類似我再follow一下因為剛剛他的這個新聞也有出來就是早上有質詢過所謂的烏深口水庫的這樣的一個光電板的部分那您這邊也有承諾就是說只要是地方政府沒有再核定的話將來是不會再允許任何的水庫來租借光電板使用那現在進行中也先暫緩是不是"},{"start":14462.222,"end":14476.109,"text":"第一关就是地方政府他必须同意地方政府通常同意之前他会跟居民做沟通这些做好以后才会送到我们水利署送到我们能源署来是"},{"start":14477.222,"end":14501.577,"text":"是送完能源署來好但是現在來那我請教部長我直接比較請教一下吳三頭水庫是因為現在有所謂的網路的影片大家才看到說怎麼會有這樣的一個清理方式雖然說我們第一時間有講是不是說他沒有使用藥水但難免大家會有疑慮嘛對不對那請教現在全台灣到底有多少水庫是上面有光電板已經核准五座五座那五座全都是民間開發來租用"},{"start":14504.853,"end":14528.942,"text":"大部分是由开发单位像说公务部门像我们经济部水利署也有在阿公店然后像乌山头水库是由嘉南农田水利分署这边在办理的都是由一般是由但它到底是公务部门还是那民间业者我们公务部门然后用招标方式让民间进来做这个使用用权力的方式来做一些处理"},{"start":14529.622,"end":14549.615,"text":"所以其實在這個過程裡面變成是開發單位還是以公部門為主囉我們公部門甲方是公部門那如果說這樣的話剛剛有提到就是這個租約到期就要不續租那有沒有可能提前來執行完畢因為你是甲方嘛"},{"start":14551.021,"end":14567.246,"text":"像烏山頭烏山頭因為這部分是農水署那邊我們請農業部因為烏山頭是農水署所以我們請農業部農水署對甲方是我們公部門是不是不是你們說清楚來你們說清楚"},{"start":14571.556,"end":14586.316,"text":"是土地租用报告委员因为浓水署加囊管理处是水库的一个管理机关对那是由加囊管理处来跟业者来发报让业者来承租"},{"start":14587.31,"end":14608.635,"text":"所以到底本席現在想要釐清的點我覺得這也是為什麼我們到目前為止大家一直說明不清楚就是說到底這個光電板是我們能源署這邊有相關的一個計畫讓業者這邊來設置那只是跟我們公部門來借土地就借這個水庫還是說我們置始置終是由水庫單位這邊來去做推動"},{"start":14610.197,"end":14626.111,"text":"報告委員 當初是依據我們配合再生能源的一個政策還有經濟部的太陽光電兩年推動計畫來推動是嗎 這些我都理解我現在直接講是說到底假方式假方式由加拿大當初招標是108年的時候那是水利會的時代"},{"start":14626.611,"end":14652.266,"text":"那後來的話在114年開始營運的時候那就是已經江南管理處了就是我們農水署江南管理處是那如果說真的對於民眾有疑慮其實我覺得說為什麼大家會覺得看到這個畫面然後再加上是說我們之前的颱風這個不管是光電板的破壞其實很顯然的以及很簡單的一個理由就是我們的能源政策到底有多麼的脆弱以及左至右處"},{"start":14653.533,"end":14676.27,"text":"就是說連水庫上面我們都必須要寸土寸金去增地然後去蓋這些所謂的光電板那光電板如果說有任何相關為什麼會有民眾的疑慮在國外是非常常見的我有看到國外的案例但是國外的案例其實它也有很多的地方其實它沒有說一定是水庫上面蓋因為這不一定是主流本席剛剛也特別查過相關的資料"},{"start":14676.79,"end":14701.904,"text":"但我們現在要問的是說為什麼會讓民眾會有這樣的疑慮就像昭偉剛剛質詢的時候也講到這一個水庫它其實灌溉的是我們整體相關不管是農用不管是相關民眾的生活所以說對於民眾對於水質的要求其實是很大的那結果上面居然有這個光電板有相關的這一些設施會讓大家會有疑慮水質一直在監控當中"},{"start":14702.324,"end":14725.605,"text":"好 那我請教部長監控部分能不能有一個即時來秀有沒有秀有可以秀給民眾看嗎民眾隨時可以上網去來現在有嗎在官網裡面都有現在在台電的官網還是哪邊的官網我們在農田水利署的官網還有嘉南管理處的官網裡面我們都有公開隨時檢測的一個資訊"},{"start":14729.261,"end":14746.739,"text":"每多久檢測我們是一年檢測五次廠商檢測兩次管理處檢測兩次本署檢測一次一年有五次的一個水質檢測一年五次所以平均的兩個月三個月才一次的公告"},{"start":14748.14,"end":14767.81,"text":"是不是對 我們就是檢測完的水質資料就會呈現出來所以跟剛剛部長講的讓我們還以為是說是即時的一個讓大家能夠放心好像有點落差這個即時就是我們檢測完的資料我們會即時放在網站上面我們每天都在喝水每天都在灌溉然後你跟我們講說三個月看一次"},{"start":14769.69,"end":14785.331,"text":"這個清洗會不會清洗完之後它的這個不管是水質稀釋 水質的淨化有可能一兩個月之後它又已經過去了但是民眾的使用是每天啊能不能加強"},{"start":14788.607,"end":14804.62,"text":"如果說現在這件事件已經讓民眾有疑慮了能不能加強更透明的每天是有基本檢驗的如果是引用的部分每天基本檢驗一劑是有完整檢驗那這個基本檢驗的一個部分能不能也上網及時讓"},{"start":14808.423,"end":14829.922,"text":"那個我們的每季的檢驗是在我們官網是有公告的那每日的基本檢驗我們只是做記錄是操作人員只是做記錄部長所以沒有問題所以時間嘛那當然我是說其實我們都站在同一個陣線上來講希望讓民眾更安心如果說民眾真的有疑慮的話就是要資訊更公開透明"},{"start":14830.422,"end":14837.968,"text":"那還有我還是強調就是說其實寸土寸金的情況為什麼你連腦筋動用在水庫上面某種程度上就是真的"},{"start":14838.908,"end":14861.946,"text":"寸土寸金嘛一味難求嘛然後我們能源左至右處嘛2050我們要達到淨零我們要達到淨零我們繼續努力但是部長我剛剛提出來的這個建議也請這邊能源署相關部門能夠把它放在心上適時的公告給予民眾知的權利我講孟愷所講的我們剛剛其實在質詢的時候就已經要求說"},{"start":14863.047,"end":14883.094,"text":"你們馬上在我們這個會議完之後把我們包括飲用水的檢測在烏山頭這個區塊飲用水的檢測還有我們灌溉水的檢測全部拉出一個那個制式的一個網站當中讓我們烏山頭所有的民眾"},{"start":14883.934,"end":14908.537,"text":"有擔心的民眾可以直接而且我們的檢測基本上本身就已經有很多的一個檢測系統在裡面不是隨時放上去你這樣說怎麼會動輒說你是三個月去檢測一套不是 我們整個檢測系統是早就在那裡只是三個月公佈一次那現在我們就隨時公佈對 我覺得趙委其實重點是多久更新一次隨時公佈多久更新"},{"start":14909.338,"end":14924.254,"text":"然後檢視讓大家能夠了解我們就是要求他隨時公佈因為他要先把那個檢測系統我們要求就是我們這一次烏山頭的飲用水還有我們的灌溉水全部自己拉出一個"},{"start":14925.275,"end":14947.006,"text":"不要是说我要去这个水利署才看得到你们的然后去农业部才看到你们的不要既然乌山头这一次已经引发这么多的疑虑了我们就把它拉到一个自治的平台针对大家如果对乌山头水库有疑虑的全部进到这里就可以看到而且我们是随时更新"},{"start":14947.546,"end":14962.787,"text":"趙薇 我更建議 趙薇我建議一下因為剛剛有講到現在目前全台灣五座水庫上面是有光電板所以如果說真的要做比較全面的是應該連烏山斗水庫以及其他水庫能夠做適時的揭露資訊都應該要做揭露"},{"start":14964.315,"end":14990.544,"text":"我們現在因為烏山頭水庫現在是我們媒體的焦點我想現在我們先把烏山頭水庫先把它拉出來那其他四座的水庫陸續補上好不好陸續補上我們待會下去的時候烏山頭水庫先補上然後後續四座陸續補上拉出一個我們自治的一個平台好不好監控我們所有水庫光電板的水質問題謝謝"},{"start":14995.803,"end":15016.685,"text":"對沒錯就是先用我們技術上可以先連結然後變成一個大家點進去就可以看到我們烏山頭水庫的一個水質狀況我們再去思考後續要怎麼再把其他的拉上補上這個部分再麻煩那我們現在請葉元之委員"},{"start":15018.409,"end":15031.801,"text":"葉園之委員葉園之委員不在我們請陳英委員陳英委員陳英委員不在我們請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在我們請林楚英委員林楚英委員林楚穎委員不在那我們現在"},{"start":15034.093,"end":15063.016,"text":"登记发言的委员除不在场外其余均与发言完毕询答结束委员张家俊 苏清泉 陈超明陈伯亚所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会本日等一下那个拜托我们我刚刚所讲那个请待会马上完成因为"},{"start":15063.897,"end":15079.287,"text":"真的鬧得沸沸揚揚的所以拜託我們的經濟部跟農業部待會馬上完成這一個所謂資訊公開水質監測公開的一個部分我們本日所列議程處理完畢謝謝大家現在散會謝謝"},{"start":15091.5,"end":15093.142,"text":"你們的家很近對,你們的家很遠"}]}},{"id":"164075","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164075","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41bbccea3aa417120348968031a7af4f524a4fcb09fe3320f8ae775ba66314c5e845366a77bfd4645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:26:20 - 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麻煩請經管會 彭主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":19.446,"end":39.215,"text":"主委早剛剛提到說這兩天國際的變化使得美中的對抗好像有深分的疑慮結果衍生出虛擬貨幣爆倉的事件而且那個爆倉的金額非常的大這個你有什麼看法"},{"start":39.929,"end":64.912,"text":"我想虛擬資產在一開始出現的時候這個就是他非常重要的一個特質波動大這也是後來大家提到穩定幣為什麼出來很重要的原因我想這一次的這些的這個波動這麼大確實是還有就是主要剛才講的爆倉主要是他們做槓桿交易槓桿交易的話這是跌20%假如做4倍的話基本上就全部出場"},{"start":66.053,"end":93.462,"text":"我想這裡提醒就是說反而虛擬資產就有這個特質這也是一個很好的我覺得整個個案出來以後也讓我們體會到這個虛擬資產的交易它具有的不確定性跟風險性你的報告裡面關於這一塊有提到說你們現在正在研議而且向行政院已經提出你們的草案我在這個地方我的想法要跟你分享這件事情要穩健"},{"start":94.468,"end":121.363,"text":"要很注意穩健我們台灣人的民族性賺錢都說自己很行萬一集體賠錢就會找你算帳都算政府的帳你一定要切記我這個講法我以富油價這件事件為例富油價就是他們去玩期貨結果全部都出場對不對到好幾年去金管會門口在那邊抗議了很久"},{"start":123.157,"end":149.31,"text":"你的石油期貨國內基本上這個是一個很冷門的東西那我以那個事件為例不論對錯就再一次印證我這個講法賺錢的人都覺得自己很行不是去感謝別人那但是如果賠了錢而且是集體賠了錢他要找你政府算賬都是你政府害的所以你那個版本你現在可不可以先透露一下你的"},{"start":151.655,"end":168.175,"text":"這個穩健的部分要如何來防止這種事情謝謝委員其實委員剛剛提醒這也是就是因為它是一個具有不確定跟風險的這樣的一個工具或是這樣的市場所以我們更要透過一個專法的架構來做這樣的一個保護我們的投資人"},{"start":169.036,"end":198.574,"text":"因為主要是剛才講這是一個全球不是只有台灣在那個虛擬資產的世界是沒有國界的但是呢我們可以透過一些行政的這樣的一個措施所以透過這個專法我們可以跟我們實體的監理做連結那對於這些在境內交易的這些民眾當然已經在你有跨境能力交易我們是沒有辦法在這邊做做這樣比較全面的管理但是至少這一部分呢我們反而是就是因為這樣我們更應該要有這樣的一個做法"},{"start":199.585,"end":218.162,"text":"那跟穩定幣的做法會不一樣嗎穩定幣其實跟虛擬資產又是另外一個區塊所以以美國來講它的穩定幣背後要有相等價的美金或是美國公債才可以做發行所以是一比一的但是台灣有需要發行嗎"},{"start":219.215,"end":236.572,"text":"其實這是一個很有趣的議題有不同的角度思考當然就以假設國際貨幣清算的角度來看的話其實台幣不是一個國際上面的通用的主流貨幣我想這個當然在這一部分還是以美元或是其他的強勢貨幣為主"},{"start":238.874,"end":262.234,"text":"但是如果他涉及到未來比如說很多人在推測說未來假設RWA成為是一個越來越普遍還有國內的支付的部分那這樣的話我們還是會有這樣的一個本國必別的穩定幣存在的空間那有一個說法說穩定幣通行之後因為就在網路上面很直接就處理了第一個銀行的角色不見了第二個"},{"start":264.96,"end":284.953,"text":"這個是不是以後要打砸的時候困難度會增加這兩個事情其實這一題兩面就是銀行就像假設銀行如果他固守於現在的傳統業務面對未來像這種虛擬金融或是數位金融的挑戰這確實是一個不可知的領域就像剛才講說假設我過去的這個現金做放款"},{"start":285.253,"end":311.987,"text":"那現在如果很多人把它做為一個穩定幣就是變成質押在那邊他在另外一個世界裡面是在用這個法幣的穩定幣在運作的時候確實在銀行如果你還是固守在原有的角色是沒有的但是剛剛文燁提到打詐的部分假設這個未來比如說這個穩定幣或者這個虛擬資產在我們的管控範圍的範圍更大的話我們應該是對打詐應該是更有著力點是喔"},{"start":315.13,"end":335.738,"text":"這個全球的網路上面往來就支付了你你如果對於打詐會你覺得會反而有幫助因為比如說我們現在來講就像我們現在我們對現在虛擬資產服務業者我們禁止的所有的現金交易他就必須要透過我們的法幣帳戶進行交易那我們的KYC就會做到非常的清楚"},{"start":336.078,"end":361.698,"text":"那你剛剛提到的啊有一些人那就透過網路不經過台灣本身內部的一些他就直接跟國外交易了對這是全世界面臨到的問題這要透過國際合作這個確實是不是只有台灣所獨有在網路世界是沒有國界好那剛剛有提到這幾年因為台灣這個科技業的發展蓬勃發展那使得我們的證券交易市場規模不停的擴大現在已經是全世界"},{"start":362.719,"end":390.882,"text":"排名第幾了 第八了嘛已經急進前十了這以台灣的人口量來講是非常不容易那但是證券交易同時就是我們的資本市場也要穩定所以這一年來的IPO的這個狀況你有掌握嗎IPO的話我想主要是詳細的數字我可能沒辦法跟委員說明那個櫃買跟證交所董事長也來請那個櫃買跟交易所過去可以跟委員報告一下去年我們IPO的狀況"},{"start":394.428,"end":416.487,"text":"報告委員 我們今年的IPO的狀況基本上來講的話 交易所這邊創新版加上上市一般版的話 大概40多家左右40多家 然後他的資本額是多少他的資本額 你很難 因為他難以統計喔創新版大概在兩三億"},{"start":419.989,"end":439.331,"text":"上市一般版大概是六七億啦資本額就是要上你們的市六億啊我的意思是說這一些你說IP2有四十幾家在你們交易所嘛那他的資本額跟他的這個所謂的市值因為市值是每天浮動的但是資本額基本上是固定的這應該統計的出來啊"},{"start":441.921,"end":457.641,"text":"我這裡沒有好沒關係那你這時候再補啦那就是也是對我們的市場規模增加的不少40幾家相對於前幾年成績算是不錯啦我們預計今年會超過去年好那繼續加油但是這個其實是走鋼索"},{"start":458.562,"end":472.328,"text":"一方面要讓他上市但是另一方面又要監管你也不能不讓市場規模擴大但是同時上市的時候那個標準的拿捏其實對你們來講是一個很艱難的工作要加油那前董事長在一邊呢各位委員報告我們去年有30家掛牌那今年已經有23家掛牌了"},{"start":483.737,"end":509.155,"text":"所以兩家加起來都跟前幾年比較好很多其實在以前財政部張部長的時代在馬政府執政 張部長用他證所稅的時代之前IPO曾經高達一年一百多家後來當然就是因為那個東西所以急劇就減少了所以我說要加油尤其是台灣的好公司希望留在台灣上市櫃不要讓他跑到外國去"},{"start":510.876,"end":523.044,"text":"有的會選擇去新加坡 選擇去香港這次委員剛我在報告的時候我們大概近期會對外宣布我們的亞洲創新投資平台我們就是打算做這件事好 那兩位董事長先請回座"},{"start":524.156,"end":548.325,"text":"這個最後在剩下一分鐘的時間就是問你問一個問題打炸是我們現在眼前很重要的一個問題但是打炸這個有警示帳戶會衍生管制的帳戶現在的反應就是說現在因為證券交易這麼的熱絡每天的交易這麼大那這些警示帳 衍生的管制帳戶因為你證券交易現在都是用線上交割嘛你不可能拿現金去嘛"},{"start":549.085,"end":576.802,"text":"那他要進他的帳戶要出他的帳戶都變成有困難那這一個反應金管會的看法是怎麼樣啊如何協助解決我想我已經提到就是應該是大概大概幾週前有一個他可能卡到他的那個就是畫布帳戶就是那個交割帳戶那這部分應該是後來我們了解可能是他那個城市所控的問題好那這個我們就很快改善我們也通知所有的銀行把這記取這個教訓不可以再犯"},{"start":577.851,"end":591.103,"text":"因為比如一個例子我自己的帳戶我賣股票我錢要進去你說你把我鎖起來我約焦哥算誰的責任所以說現在他們在鎖空的時候我們要求他們必須要24小時專人服務的電話來負責解決這樣的問題"},{"start":596.423,"end":615.804,"text":"雖然打詐是政府非常重點而且很重要的工作但是我們在執行的過程中能夠減少對民眾的困擾也是一個重要的議題這個確實在比如說在主詐打詐跟比如說一些某一個比率誤判這樣產生的"},{"start":617.105,"end":628.071,"text":"民眾的不便這件事情我們盡量的我們也是請我們的銀行透過各式各樣的方法降低這樣我們一定要取得一個橫頻好 加油謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":207,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時26分）主席，麻煩請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：主委早。剛剛提到這兩天的國際變化，使得美中對抗好像有升溫的疑慮，結果衍生出虛擬貨幣爆倉事件，且爆倉的金額非常大，對此你有什麼看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：虛擬資產在一開始出現時，這就是他非常重要的一個特質──波動大，這也是後來為什麼大家會提到穩定幣會出現的重要原因，我想這一次波動確實很大。至於委員剛剛講到爆倉，主要是他們在做槓桿交易。以槓桿交易來說，像這次跌20%，如果做四倍，基本上就會全部出場！我想這也是在提醒，虛擬資產本來就有這個特質，所以這也是一個很好的……整個個案出來以後，讓我們體會到虛擬資產交易具有的不確定性跟風險性。"],["吳委員秉叡：你的報告裡面關於這一塊有提到，你們現在正在研議，也已經提出草案給行政院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我在這裡想跟主委分享想法，這件事情要穩健，而且要很注意穩健，尤其臺灣人的民族性，講到賺錢都說自己很行，但是當萬一集體賠錢時，就會找你算帳，都算政府的帳！你一定要切記我這個講法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：我以負油價這件事件為例。因為負油價，所以有人去玩期貨，結果後來全部都出場了，對不對？還去金管會門口抗議很久，好幾年了。基本上，石油期貨在國內是一個很冷門的東西，以此事件為例，不論對錯，都再一次印證我的講法：賺錢的人都覺得自己很行，不是去感謝別人；但是當賠了錢，而且是集體賠錢時，他就要找政府算帳，認為都是政府害的！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：關於版本，你現在可不可以先透露一下要如何穩健地防止這種事情發生？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員剛才的提醒，就因為他是一個具有不確定跟風險的工具，甚或是市場，所以我們更要透過專法的架構來保護我們的投資人。剛才也講到，這是全球性的，不是只有臺灣，畢竟在虛擬資產世界是沒有國界的！但我們可以透過一些行政措施、透過專法，可以跟我們的實體監理做連結，對於在境內交易的這些民眾，特別是已經有跨境能力交易者，我們沒有辦法做比較全面的管理，不過我們更要因為這樣而有作法。"],["吳委員秉叡：跟穩定幣的作法會不一樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：穩定幣跟虛擬資產比起來，其實又是另外一個區塊，所以我們是……"],["吳委員秉叡：以美國來講，穩定幣的背後要有等價的美金或美國公債才可以發行，所以是1比1，但臺灣有需要發行嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這其實是一個很有趣的議題，有不同的角度思考。假設以國際貨幣清算的角度來看，臺幣不是國際上通用的主流貨幣，所以在這部分大概還是以美元或其他強勢貨幣為主。但如果涉及到未來……很多人推測，未來假設RWA越來越普遍，加上國內支付的部分，這樣的話我們還是會有一個本國幣別的穩定幣存在空間。"],["吳委員秉叡：有一個說法是，穩定幣通行之後，因為就在網路上直接處理了，所以第一個，銀行的角色不見了；第二個，是不是以後打詐的困難度會增加？這兩個事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這其實是一體兩面！假設銀行固守於現在的傳統業務，畢竟面對未來的虛擬金融或數位金融的挑戰，這確實是一個不可知的領域。就像剛才所講的，假設我過去以現金做放款，現在如果有很多人將它視為穩定幣來質押，而在另外一個世界卻是用這個法幣、穩定幣在運作時，若銀行還是固守在原有的角色那就是沒有了。","至於剛才委員提到打詐的部分，假設未來我們對穩定幣或虛擬資產的管控範圍更大的話，應該對打詐會更有著力點。"],["吳委員秉叡：是喔？他就在全球的網路上往來支付了，你認為如何會對打詐有幫助？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以現在來講，對於虛擬資產服務業者，我們禁止所有的現金交易，因此就必須要法幣帳戶來進行交易，如此，我們的KYC就會做到非常清楚。"],["吳委員秉叡：你剛剛提到有一些人就透過網路，也不經過臺灣本身內部，就直接跟國外交易了，這樣你管控得到嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是全世界所面臨的問題，所以要透過國際合作，確實也不是臺灣所獨有，畢竟網路世界是沒有國界的。"],["吳委員秉叡：這幾年因為臺灣科技業蓬勃發展，使得我們的證券交易市場與規模不停擴大，現在已經是全世界排名第幾了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第八。"],["吳委員秉叡：已經擠進前十了，以臺灣的人口量來講非常不容易。但在證券交易的同時，我們的資本市場也要穩定，所以這一年來的IPO狀況你有掌握嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：IPO的話，詳細數字我可能沒辦法跟委員說明……"],["吳委員秉叡：請櫃買跟證交所董事長來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：請櫃買跟交易所跟委員報告一下去年我們IPO的狀況。"],["林董事長修銘：報告委員，我們今年IPO的狀況，基本上來講，交易所這邊的創新板加上上市一般板的話，大概是四十多家左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：四十多家？他的資本額是多少？"],["林董事長修銘：資本額很難……因為……"],["吳委員秉叡：難以統計？"],["林董事長修銘：上市一般板資本額大概是六、七億……"],["吳委員秉叡：要上你們的板是六億……"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是……你說IPO有四十幾家在你們交易所？"],["林董事長修銘：今年。"],["吳委員秉叡：他的資本額跟市值，因為市值是每天浮動的，但資本額基本上是固定的，這應該統計得出來。"],["林董事長修銘：我這裡沒有資料，是不是之後……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒關係，你事後再補。"],["林董事長修銘：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：這也讓我們的市場規模增加不少。四十幾家相對於前幾年來說，成績算是不錯。"],["林董事長修銘：我們預計今年會超過去年。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，繼續加油。其實這是在走鋼索，一方面要讓他上市，但另外一方面又要監管，畢竟你不能不讓市場規模擴大。不過在上市的同時，標準的拿捏對你們來講是一個很艱難的工作，所以要加油。"],["林董事長修銘：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：簡董事長這邊呢？"],["簡董事長立忠：跟委員報告，我們去年有30家掛牌，至於今年已經有23家掛牌了。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以兩者加起來都跟前幾年比好很多。其實以前在馬政府執政時，財政部張部長課徵證所稅時代前，IPO曾經一年高達一百多家，後來當然就是因為課徵那個東西就急遽減少了，所以我才說要加油！尤其是臺灣的好公司希望能留在臺灣上市櫃，不要讓他跑到外國去，有的會選擇去新加坡、選擇去香港啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，剛剛我有報告，我們大概在近期會對外宣布我們的亞洲創新投資平臺，就是打算做這件事。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，兩位董事長先請回座。","最後剩下一分多鐘的時間，向您問一個問題，打詐是我們現在眼前很重要的一個問題，但是打詐的警示帳戶會衍生管制帳戶……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，衍生帳戶。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在的反映就是說，因為證券交易這麼的熱絡，每天的交易額這麼大，這些衍生的管制帳戶，因為證券交易現在都是用線上交割，不可能拿現金去，他要進他的帳戶或出他的帳戶都變成有困難，對於這個反映，金管會的看法是怎麼樣？如何協助解決？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想委員提到的應該是大概幾週前有一個人可能卡到他的交割帳戶，這個部分後來我們了解可能是程式鎖控的問題，這個我們就很快改善，我們也通知所有的銀行記取這個教訓，不可以再犯。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，舉一個例子，我自己的帳戶，我買股票時錢要進去，但你把我鎖起來，那我違約交割要算誰的責任？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以現在他們在鎖控的時候，我們要求他們必須要有24小時專人服務電話負責解決這樣的問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：雖然打詐是政府的重點，而且很重要的工作，但是我們在執行的過程中要能夠減少對民眾的困擾跟傷害，也是一個重要的議題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，這個確實，比如在阻詐、打詐跟某一個比率誤判所產生讓民眾感覺不便，這件事情我們會儘量，我們也是請銀行透過各式各樣的方法去降低這樣的情況，我們一定要取得一個衡平。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，加油，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164074","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164074","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/41bbccea3aa41712dd5377799f139acc524a4fcb09fe3320f8ae775ba66314c5b36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:14:42 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謝謝主席是不是請彭主委 軍管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委委員長主委您早主委我請教因為中國稀土限制出口"},{"start":29.99,"end":51.796,"text":"整個美中的貿易戰升溫上週美股大雪崩那我請問主委穩健的台股面對整個國際局勢的動盪是不是因為技術面的大跌衝擊影響到台股基本面的發展會不會是因為這樣子"},{"start":53.194,"end":72.505,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是台股在過去的表現確實是相對是穩健我想從10月10號這個消息出來以後因為我們遇到廉價沒有反應因為我剛剛也看了一下今天剛剛在我上台為止大概我們現在下跌的幅度跟美國來講確實收斂了不少"},{"start":76.067,"end":92.445,"text":"面對關稅的議題從4月開始到現在整個產業應該有經歷過很多很多的這樣消息面也好基本面的變化我想投資人面對這樣的消息的這些的消化以及解讀能力已經開始有一定的這樣的判讀能力"},{"start":92.805,"end":121.239,"text":"那個主委啊畢竟上市櫃會因為股市是蒸發的市值而影響到根本的整個財務的一個操作那這個主委因為國安基金委員會召開第三季例行的會議考量整個市場仍存在不確定的因素決議繼續來執行安定市場的任務那我請問主委你認為美中貿易戰是不是"},{"start":123.657,"end":148.895,"text":"這個國安基金進退場執行安定任務的一個條件石包委員我想這個國安基金是因為財政部在處理我不方便評論我只是說剛剛委員提到這個美中兩個經濟體是世界上非常非常大的經濟體他們的任何的動作都影響到全球的這個所有的資本市場我想這部分我們儘管會密切的注意像這樣的情勢的發展"},{"start":150.016,"end":177.231,"text":"主委 國安基金委員會表示認為台美對等關稅談判及232條款調查結果尚未定案後續效應需審慎因應不及現在就退場那我請問主委如果談判時時程拉長那後續效應引發全球貿易戰那是不是代表國安基金安定市場的任務可能會持續的延長你認為呢"},{"start":178.872,"end":200.338,"text":"是 剛剛國安基金因為他有他自己的目的啦我剛剛跟委員報告了就是他的主政單位財政部但是我們儘管會在對於市場制度我們是期待這個制度能夠回歸到市場機制我們充分的揭露資訊在制度上穩健的建立相關的遊戲規則我想當然市場上會有很多消息面以及這些所謂的國際這些"},{"start":203.699,"end":218.671,"text":"這個經貿之間的增值所產生的一些的影響我想我們資本市場就是充分的反映所有的資訊我們建立一個完善的制度給投資人來進行這樣的一個運作本主委我請教這個"},{"start":221.127,"end":238.674,"text":"你曾說今年股市主要變數包括川普上任影響整個國際金融市場甚大那多項變數包括美國聯準會的利率政策以及對股會市都有影響那金管會都會關注"},{"start":240.117,"end":268.159,"text":"主委那台股由於今年四月是最低點的時候是一萬七千多點到現在台股大盤已經上漲到兩萬七千多點整整六個月上漲了一萬點那我請問主委面對川普關稅戰的不確定性台股大盤卻反應上漲你認為這樣的台股大盤發展是正常還是異常呢"},{"start":268.809,"end":287.505,"text":"其實我覺得全球的經濟環境都在做很大很大的變化我想剛才委員提到就是說台股在創歷史新高的過程當中其實我們看我們全球的主要國家的股市其實不是只有台灣我想全球的整個經濟環境做很大的變更"},{"start":288.226,"end":308.459,"text":"那跟以前比如說可能10年20年不太一樣剛剛委員也提到就是確實像美國的這些的關稅政策關稅那個衝擊都很大尤其那個一般傳產業啊對還有像美元的那個利率它的走向還有就是地緣政治都是影響台灣資本市場非常重要因素目前應該還是"},{"start":310.053,"end":337.67,"text":"這樣喔 主委你說未來一年全球的經濟情勢都有大波動在不確定性成為常態之下金管會將對整個資本市場保持高度的關注那我請問主委金管會對目前整個資本市場的發展以及未來投資和運作你認為應該是積極樂觀還是保守樂觀甚至於還是應該要居高思維你的論點呢"},{"start":338.63,"end":367.176,"text":"跟委員報告我想在過去我在這裡回答委員的那個詢問的時候我都再三的強調儘管會不會對未來的股市做任何的預期但是呢我們相信所有的股市最終還是回落到基本面那我們從這個因素來看的話台灣的產業整個的營收也好獲利的數字也好今年確實是表現的相對的是比較優異我想"},{"start":367.896,"end":390.99,"text":"有基本面的支撐是最重要的我想最終不管消息面一些因素最終還是要反映基本的基本面我知道要不要居高思維因為講實在話很多那些傳產業甚至於現在很多人失業那像這些都是未來會變成社會問題那你像這個關稅的不確定性衝擊那些產業尤其傳產真的很嚴重"},{"start":396.497,"end":416.082,"text":"對 就是在這一方面我們在做金融支持的部分其實我們還是持續的在做當然整個關稅影響到的不是只是金融市場我想整個影響包括我們的進出口都會受到這些影響我只是說我們各司其職我們在金融業的部分有關資本市場以及我們金融支持的部分我們會持續來努力"},{"start":416.772,"end":436.708,"text":"那個 主委啊 我再請教 因為八月底時這個公股銀行2025年上半年海外獲利統計出爐八大公股這個海外獲利這個合計占比維持在差不多兩成以上其中又以兆豐銀行接近三成最高"},{"start":437.509,"end":453.363,"text":"那主委銀行竟然有相當比例海外獲利的占比那為什麼最近公股銀行持續傳出要診病或裁測的消息我想這一點本席不大了解請主委你來做說明"},{"start":453.863,"end":475.648,"text":"我想因為公股當然是因為這部分站在我們金融階等立場我們是尊重公司治理他們自己我們過去確實我們有看到五家公股裁測了12個海外的據點然後主要的地方也是集中在一些地方我想他們自己經有的經營的考量那有些是因為他們確實在業務上面已經做了一些調整我想在"},{"start":476.548,"end":492.733,"text":"過去我們是會去了解希望他們還是兼顧到一些比如說有一些我們的客戶的一些的需求但是呢最後他們也都做出這樣的決定我們是表示尊重不過我們還是會關切是否有這樣他們這樣裁測是否適當"},{"start":493.433,"end":513.07,"text":"主委啊 就以您專業的立場 供股行庫整併或裁測除了營運獲利考量外 是不是也有政策目的考量的成分那你認為近期像川普經貿關稅這些政策是不是也是國內供股行庫海外據點發生變化的一個原因呢"},{"start":513.55,"end":541.631,"text":"我想這原因非常的複雜因為就是說比如說我們在就以國內的金融機構設立分支機構為例他也是過去曾經有一段是高峰期大家都希望來設分行但是隨著我們的經營型態已經客戶需求以及客戶行為的改變他也要做這個調整相對的隨著國際市場的改變那實際上這個他們在做這些調整我們是覺得只要是符合他們公司自己程序以及他們業務上的考量我覺得我們都會尊重"},{"start":542.511,"end":561.059,"text":"主委 按照公股銀行海外據點似乎有加速來整併的狀況且根據各銀行的說法 策點主要包括政局不穩 營運成本高資源配置效率低 以及數位化趨勢的改變"},{"start":562.419,"end":578.311,"text":"這些金融的服務模式那我請問主委公股銀行海外據點加速整併是不是代表台灣我們的政府啊對新南向政策計畫也必須做出相當程度的調整你認為呢"},{"start":579.231,"end":602.571,"text":"其實本來事業經營就要保持高度的靈活性以及適應環境的改變像比如這次我們有看到有些光谷測它是測在某些特定地區因為它的整個整個的經營環境已經做了改變那我想這部分或是它商機已經不在或是因為其他比如說的因素不穩定的時候它可能就會測走我想這個大概是經營商業上也是要保有一定的彈性"},{"start":603.953,"end":618.955,"text":"這個其實我們也可以看到我們這個國營在海外的這樣那個擴張確實在最近幾年已經展現它的成效陳柱剛才指示就是說他們現在獲利海外獲利越高也成為很重要的獲利的引擎"},{"start":619.375,"end":634.811,"text":"那個主委又或者參與新南向政策的台商早已經出現投資板塊的移動所以說公股銀行才決定部分新南向國家這些海外據點整併或撤離是不是有這樣的考量"},{"start":635.171,"end":656.633,"text":"其實我們看到其實看國營這個動向不應該只看公股其他我覺得很多我們是整個民營行業畢竟我們的客戶不是只有公股在服務但是我們也看到我們的銀行其實也保持非常靈活的這樣的一個做法其實我們站在一個金融監理我們是希望他們做好自己的風險評估以及他們公司治理能夠完備這部分我們都尊重他們的經營"},{"start":657.153,"end":675.776,"text":"好最後一點我請問主委相較之下未來公股銀行如果追隨台積電海外佈局腳步積極你認為前進日跟美的市場新東向有沒有可能促成公股銀行設置海外據點的另一波熱潮會不會"},{"start":676.451,"end":690.458,"text":"其實我覺得我們的公股在過去氣精的部分本來就是他的強項跟隨客戶本來就是他們現在很重要的一個策略的思考我想這部分還是一樣剛剛講說他們會有自己的判斷尊重他們以及發揮他們優勢來進行他業務的拓展好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":173,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時14分）謝謝主席，是不是請金管會彭主委？"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委早。主委，我請教你，因為中國稀土限制出口，所以整個美中的貿易戰升溫，在上週美股大雪崩，我請問主委，穩健的臺股面對整個國際局勢的動盪時，是不是會因為技術面的大跌衝擊而影響到臺股基本面的發展？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，臺股在過去的表現確實是相對穩健的。"],["林委員德福：穩健，我知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：從10月10日這個消息出來以後，因為我們遇到連假沒有反映，我剛剛也看了一下，在我上臺為止，我們現在下跌的幅度相較於美國來講，確實收斂不少。面對關稅議題，從4月開始到現在，整個產業應該也經歷過很多消息面也好或是基本面的變化，我想投資人面對這些消息的消化以及解讀能力，已經開始有一定的判讀能力。"],["林委員德福：主委，畢竟上市櫃公司會因為股市蒸發市值而影響根本財務的操作，國安基金委員會召開第三季例行會議，其考量整個市場仍存在不確定因素，決議繼續執行安定市場的任務，請問主委，你認為美中貿易戰是不是國安基金進退場執行安定任務的一個條件？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，國安基金是財政部在處理，我不方便評論，剛剛委員提到的美中兩個經濟體是世界上非常大的經濟體，他們的任何動作都會影響到全球所有的資本市場，在這個部分，我們金管會會密切地注意像這樣的情勢發展。"],["林委員德福：國安基金委員會表示臺美對等關稅談判及232條款調查結果尚未定案，後續效應需審慎因應，不急於現在就退場。請問主委，如果談判時程拉長，後續效應引發全球貿易戰，是不是代表國安基金安定市場的任務可能會持續地延長，你認為呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛提到國安基金有它自己的目的，剛剛也跟委員報告過它的主政單位是財政部，但是對於市場制度，我們金管會是期待這個制度能夠回歸到市場機制，充分地揭露資訊，在制度上穩健地建立相關的遊戲規則。當然市場上會有很多消息面，以及國際經貿之間的爭執所產生的一些影響，資本市場就是充分地反映所有的資訊，我們建立一個完善的制度給投資人來進行這樣的運作。"],["林委員德福：請教彭主委，你曾說今年股市主要變數包括川普上任影響整個國際金融市場甚大，多項變數包括美國聯準會的利率政策以及對股匯市都有影響，金管會都會關注。由於臺股在今年4月最低點的時候是一萬七千多點，到現在臺股大盤已經上漲到兩萬七千多點，整整六個月上漲了一萬點。面對川普關稅戰的不確定性，臺股大盤卻逆勢上漲，你認為這樣的臺股大盤發展是正常，還是異常呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得全球的經濟環境都做了很大的變化，剛剛委員提到臺股在創歷史新高的過程當中，我們看全球主要國家的股市，其實不是只有臺灣，全球的整個經濟環境做了很大的變更，與以前比如10年、20年前可能不太一樣。剛剛委員也提到，確實像美國的關稅政策……"],["林委員德福：關稅的衝擊都很大，尤其是對一般傳產業。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，還有美元的利率走向及地緣政治，都是影響臺灣資本市場非常重要的因素，目前應該還是。"],["林委員德福：主委，你說未來一年全球的經濟情勢都有大波動，在不確定性成為常態之下，金管會將對整個資本市場保持高度的關注。請問主委，金管會對目前整個資本市場的發展以及未來的投資和運作，你認為應該是積極樂觀，還是保守樂觀，還是應該要居高思危，你的論點呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，過去我在這裡回答委員詢問的時候都再三地強調，金管會不會對未來的股市做任何的預期，但是我們相信所有的股市最終還是會回落到基本面，從這個因素來看的話，臺灣產業的整個營收也好、獲利的數字也好，今年確實是相對地表現的比較優異。我認為有基本面的支撐是最重要的，不管消息面的一些因素，最終還是要反映基本面及經營成果。"],["林委員德福：基本面我知道，問題是要不要居高思危？因為講實在話，很多傳產業甚至很多人失業，像這些未來都會變成社會問題，受關稅不確定性衝擊的那些產業，尤其是傳產真的很嚴重。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在這一方面，我們在金融支持的部分還是持續地在做，當然整個關稅影響到的不只是金融市場，包括我們的進出口都會受到這些影響，只是我們各司其職，在金融業的部分，有關資本市場以及金融支持的部分，我們會持續來努力。"],["林委員德福：我再請教主委，因為8月底時公股銀行2025上半年海外獲利統計出爐，八大公股海外獲利合計占比維持在差不多兩成以上，其中又以兆豐銀行接近三成最高。主委，既然有相當比例海外獲利占比，為什麼最近公股銀行持續傳出要整併或裁撤的消息？這一點本席不太了解，請主委說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這部分站在金融監理立場，我們是尊重公司治理，過去確實有看到5家公股銀行裁撤了12個海外據點，主要是集中在某些地方，我想這是基於他們的經營考量。有一些是因為他們在業務上已經做了調整，過去我們都會去了解，希望他們還是要兼顧到我們客戶的需求，但是最後他們還是做出這樣的決定，我們表示尊重，不過我們還是會關切他們的裁撤是否適當。"],["林委員德福：主委，就以你專業的立場來看，公股行庫整併或裁撤除了營運獲利考量外，是不是也有政策目的考量的成分？你認為像近期川普經貿關稅等政策，是不是也是國內公股行庫海外據點發生變化的原因？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個原因非常地複雜，以國內金融機構設立分支機構為例，過去曾經有一段高峰期，大家都希望來設分行，但是隨著我們的經營型態、客戶需求以及客戶行為的改變，它也要做出調整。相對地，隨著國際市場的改變，實際上他們做出這些調整，我們覺得只要符合公司治理程序以及業務上的考量，我們都會予以尊重。"],["林委員德福：主委，公股銀行海外據點似乎有加速整併的狀況，且根據各銀行的說法，撤點主要包括政局不穩、營運成本高、資源配置效率低以及數位化趨勢改變金融服務模式。請問主委，公股銀行海外據點加速整併，是不是代表臺灣政府對新南向政策計畫也必須做出相當程度的調整，你認為呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實事業經營本來就要保持高度的靈活性來適應環境的改變，像我們這次看到有些官股銀行撤點是撤某些特定地區，因為整個經營環境已經做了改變，或是商機已經不在，或是有其他因素導致不穩定的時候，它可能就會撤走，我想經營商業上也是要保有一定的彈性。其實我們也可以看到我們國銀在海外的擴張，確實在最近幾年已經展現成效。誠如剛才委員所指示的，他們現在的海外獲利越來越高，也成為很重要的獲利引擎。"],["林委員德福：主委，參與新南向政策的臺商，或者早已經出現投資板塊的移動，所以公股銀行才決定將部分新南向國家的海外據點整併或撤離，是不是有這樣的考量？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實看國銀的動向不應該只看公股，我覺得很多其他民營銀行……因為我們的客戶不是只有公股在服務，我們也看到銀行其實保持了非常靈活的作法。站在金融監理的角度，我們希望他們做好自己的風險評估並完備公司治理，這部分我們都尊重他們的經營。"],["林委員德福：最後一點請問主委，相較之下，未來公股銀行如果追隨台積電海外布局且腳步積極，你認為前進日美市場與新東向，有沒有可能促成公股銀行設置海外據點的另一波熱潮？會不會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得公股過去在企經部分本來就是強項，而跟隨客戶本來就是現在一個很重要的策略思考，我想這部分還是一樣，他們會有自己的判斷，我尊重他們發揮他們的優勢來進行業務的拓展。"],["林委員德福：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc4e4c8767f3f7aa9e179f4a20aeac8eafeaa2f1cd0be3abd62843dd09ca1b81945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:02:00 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你離開你的家裡到村來的一個安置空間可是這個安置空間的環境是不足的"},{"start":318.658,"end":322.181,"text":"所以我才會藉由這個村裡的這個如果要興建一個村裡的適當的集會所預算不足這件事情想要跟部長討論說能不能用這個機會來做整體的一個考量報告委員我們現在的錢真的八月用完了看可不可以在財政收支劃分法裡面請地方政府多擔待一點我們真的是講我們實際上的狀況"},{"start":341.735,"end":359.526,"text":"沒有沒有關係我是覺得這個可以來檢討防災協作中心的話基本上我們的設計是以每個村裡辦公室來處理包括未來有防災所需要的替代役的人力我們的規劃大概是每個地方希望能夠有20到50個人來協助做疏散撤離"},{"start":360.286,"end":377.461,"text":"是協助做收容安置的人力上面的需求大概基本上是我們這方面但是硬體設備都村裡辦公室全部做修繕這個對我們民政單位來講民政司來講這個預算量太大我們沒有辦法在這個地方跟委員說我們一定能夠爭取得到好 了解"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1443,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時2分）謝謝召委破例給我3分鐘，請內政部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，經歷了7月的丹娜絲颱風、728的強降雨，到後來花蓮這次災害，事實上，我們看到很多居民防災、避難空間的不足。面對空間不足，如果居民要緊急避難的話，最好的方式就是該村莊要有一處防災避難所，或者有很多賑災物品必須放在一個空間時，最好的地方就是村里辦公室。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是我們知道，很多村里辦公室真的是老化，老化到一進入那個空間，就能從味道察覺是很老的房屋了，所以味道不好。再來是沒有空調，你可知道，地方發生水災的時候，有些長輩必須到村里活動中心，結果很熱、沒有空調，卻要叫他睡一晚、甚至睡好幾晚，真的痛苦到村長必須裝設冷氣，裝完冷氣還要載冰塊來……不是啦！是送電風扇來，送了電風扇還要載冰塊，再用電風扇把冷氣吹送給老人家，他才有辦法使用那裡的空間，所以呈現出來的就是村裡防災避難的空間不是沒有、就是老化，也有很多是向廟宇借用空間。在這次編列特別預算的時候，我本來漏掉這一項，事實上，在特別預算中，沒有編列鄉鎮村里活動中心防災整備空間這樣的預算，但我覺得好可惜，這是應該編列的。"],["劉部長世芳：我們有把它編在韌性條例裡面，國土安全韌性條例裡面有編列進去。"],["蔡委員易餘：不過不知道預算裡面有沒有。"],["劉部長世芳：有啊！"],["蔡委員易餘：有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：防救災緊急維生物資整備編列15億8,520萬元，就是依照這次中央的國土安全韌性計畫條例放進去預算。有放在裡面，就是針對防災協作中心。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，如果有的話，我認為這真的是需要的。","第二，過去內政部對於村里這樣的集會所，補助上限就是400萬元，而且二、三十年來沒調整過。400萬元是什麼概念呢？我們知道現在若要興建一處適當的空間、兩層樓的話，差不多都超過3,000萬元啦！所以縱使中央補助400萬元，剩下的錢讓地方去找也真的很難。地方多少也會出一點錢，但是中央如果核定上限是400萬元的話，基本上要在村莊興建這樣的防災避難中心或村里集會所─事實上就是多功能的概念，那麼這樣的錢是不足的。我想，現在整體防災要有更新的思維，村民避難必須有足夠的空間，這種預算是不足的。"],["劉部長世芳：是，完全不足，今年8月的時候，前瞻預算已經全部用完了，所以不夠。至於剛剛委員提到的部分，第一，是不是依照鄉鎮處理？因為一定要有主要的避難中心，而避難中心不一定是村里辦公室，通常都是活動中心或者國小、國中這些地點。在國土維生物資整備上會包括您剛剛所提到的……不是冷氣機啦！而是緊急發電機，或是緊急時要用的電源，並按照防災協作中心的方式作大量配備，這樣會比較好。假如現在再去找經費把所有村里集會活動所重新修繕，可能曠日廢時，所以我們就是先準備一下，現在如果有必須疏散或收容的時候，怎麼樣把裡面的設備、設施予以加強跟補強，甚至要有物資集放上比較安全的地方，譬如說我剛才提到的緊急發電機、柴油或者緊急濾水設備。到了收容安置的地方，第一個要求只是維生而已啦！不可能吃喝玩樂功能都很好，對不對？"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有，部長，當然沒有要到那樣，但是……"],["劉部長世芳：有水、有電、有得吃、有得睡。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，有水、有電。但是我要跟部長說，對於很多老人家來說，如果因為淹水要叫他移動到鄉鎮，就算設備可能比較好，他也不想離開，他們會寧可留在村里集會所……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，所以就會……"],["蔡委員易餘：你要叫他跨出該村莊……當然，如果是這次花蓮的狀況當然另當別論，那是強制撤離。但是有時候是他們家中淹水，我們勸說他們離開家裡……"],["劉部長世芳：收容安置。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，到村內安置空間，可是該村內安置空間的環境是不足的，所以我才會藉由村里要興建適當集會所卻預算不足這件事情，跟部長討論能不能用這個機會作整體考量。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們的錢真的在八月用完了，要看看可不可以依照財政收支劃分法請地方政府多擔待一點。我真的是講我們實際上的狀況。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有關係，我是覺得這個可以檢討啦！"],["劉部長世芳：至於防災協作中心的話，基本上的設計是以每個村里辦公室來處理，包括未來有防災所需要的替代役人力，我們的規劃大概是希望每個地方有20到50人協助疏散撤離或是滿足收容安置人力上的需求，基本上是往這方面。但是硬體設備上，如果村里辦公室要全部修繕，這對民政司來講預算量太大，我們沒有辦法在這邊跟委員說一定爭取得到。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，了解。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員翁曉玲、丁學忠、高金素梅所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分請相關單位於1周內書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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市文 德文他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險"},{"start":669.662,"end":684.819,"text":"安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府"},{"start":685.259,"end":702.868,"text":"有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":713.82,"end":715.107,"text":"謝謝五一會員接下來我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1406,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時50分）謝謝主席，有請原民會主委、內政部長。"],["主席：有請主委跟部長。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好，部長好。我今天來是幫我們馬太鞍的居民做一個陳情、請命，為什麼呢？因為昨天晚間11點左右，花蓮縣長徐榛蔚縣長有在他的臉書發文，請大家支持這一次樺加沙風災暨花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法，一個多小時之後，也就是凌晨1點多，馬太鞍那個地方的粉專就發文強烈地來反對這個專法，特別是第六條，那第六條是什麼？我唸給大家聽，第六條叫做「政府得就災區安全堪虞或違法濫建之土地，經與原住居者諮商取得共識，得劃定特定區域，限制居住或限期強制遷居、遷村，且應予符合前項之適當安置」，這個文字跟16年前莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣，一字不差。","主委，你應該還記得，因為當時您是負責災後重建的屏東縣政府原民處處長，那個時候是放在第二十條，強制遷居、遷村，然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意，所以引起原住民很大的反彈，您應該還記得吧？主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：是。我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置，我們應該都很瞭解，其實首重就是尊重民意，這個非常重要，如果跳過這個程序，政府的美意就是為德不卒啊！人家也不會買單，也不會高興啦！所以這個部分我們來瞭解一下，他們很擔心啊！說我們一直喊中繼安置，他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思？","我來說明一下，簡單來講，就是希望有一天我們要重建家園，但是我們不應該是分散，我們不應該是依親，不應該是臨時去住在旅社，他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊！因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟社會韌性，我們應該在一起去討論未來家園要如何重建，因為這不是政府的事而已，是我們大家的事，所以他們很重視這種集體性與社會韌性。因此，我舉個例子，他們希望要有一個「大家的家」可以在那邊討論，會所，當然他們也要有一個隱密性、安心的居所，可能是組合屋搭建。甚至是考量到他們的民生需求，也許一個組合屋它是雜貨店，可以讓大家方便去買東西。","其實這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來，實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家，譬如印尼、菲律賓、日本，他們也都有這樣的措施啊！像日本那一次的熊本大地震，從這個照片可以看到，大家的家、個別的臨時組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店，其實都有這樣的安置方法，但是我們好像目前還沒有。繼莫拉克之後這16年，我們還沒有看到這樣的做法，所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有，我們會在這一次行政院版本修正的第四條裡面去做這樣的處置，剛才部長您有回答，我想大家都有聽到，也都很安心。","但是我想要再請教一下主委跟處長，因為莫拉克之後，還有很多沒有完成重建的喔！您應該很清楚知道，有的是水的重建、道路的重建，還很多啊！因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了，然後它也還沒做完啊！以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到啊！所以我要說的是，以這一次的丹娜絲來講，像三地門鄉的德文，您也清楚知道，有十幾個人堅持莫拉克的時候不搬下去，但是他們這一次連住的房子也沒有了，也需要中繼安置啊！我不曉得內政部、原民會有沒有考量到這個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，大社這個部分也是放在丹娜絲條例裡面，我們會來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以會一併來處理，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會來一併處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很好，他們聽到了應該會很安心。","我最後要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉、離災不離村，這個是有共識的，在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的，但是就是很希望要有一個部落諮商同意的程序，不能夠去違背原基法的精神。政府無論怎麼訂法或者做什麼樣的辦法，我們都希望原民會你們要把關，你們要提醒各部會，因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分，甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地，是不是也應該得到在地族人的共識？對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK。我最後想要拜託一下內政部長，因為剛才我已經有聽到你回答洪孟楷委員，中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了，我剛剛有聽到了。"],["劉部長世芳：對，目前在……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他們不要永久屋，要中繼安置，你們也都在行政院版有處理了。","再來，選擇部落認可的地點重建，我相信現在應該大家都知道一定要去尊重族人，但是我要特別講，莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次，就是丹娜絲，我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例，但是需要做災後安置，我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題，所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權，我們是認為不需要。應該是回歸到國土計畫法，裡面有國土復育區，它的用地取得、補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定，如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論，包括它劃定的條件、遷居限制居住的條件、誰要參與其中、它的程序是如何，部長，這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計畫法來重新檢視一下？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝伍委員的關心，但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲，要6年以後才會繼續處理。不過我們現在的部分，我可以跟委員報告一下，花蓮縣它有一個變更光復都市計畫的第四次通盤檢討，也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的變更，但是到目前為止，就是從110年到現在，花蓮縣並沒有提報任何遷村的計畫給我們，所以未來的狀況，我剛剛有跟洪委員報告過，第一，我們委託一個研究都市計畫的大學團隊，在短時間之內針對這次因為地形、地貌變更出現比較危險情況的區域趕快加以變更。如果變更來得及，包括您剛剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方……當然我們現在是維持在台糖，因為現在的台糖光復園區沒有在這次堰塞湖的影響範圍內，是比較安全的，也就是可能不離鄉，但會離村，看看這樣他們可不可以接受。如果不願意接受的話，就要進入都市計畫的通盤檢討，做比較詳細的討論。這樣做合法、合規，如果經費需要支援的話，就會在行政院現在針對丹娜絲之後颱風總共編列的250億元裡面做地方特別預算支出以滿足需求。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，您這樣的回復也讓我安心不少。但我還是要提醒，屏東縣政府在上禮拜也提報一項計畫給原民會，可能也有內政部，最主要就是因為屏東仍舊有受莫拉克影響的分水嶺、士文、德文有遷村意願與需求，不是全部，因為是危險、安全堪虞地區。在高雄，茂林的萬山部落也是，現在居民都人心惶惶，他們不知道法源依據在哪裡、法律授權在哪裡，地方政府也不知道。但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府提報了一項計畫，已經送到原民會或內政部，就是希望讓部會了解，未來這確實是不可逆的現象，我們勢必要面對，所以希望法律或辦法可以更完備，能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，收到公文之後，我們會做進一步研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那就謝謝部長、謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請蔡易餘委員，3分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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家都關心所謂艷澀湖的相關的一個後續的狀況其實就是花蓮的一個部分嘛那我先跟您這邊再做個確認因為本期記得在兩個禮拜前左右的這個特別條例"},{"start":36.414,"end":54.138,"text":"的一个质询的时候我有请教当时李洪源前部长他也是用他的专家的一个意见是讲是说目前还有所谓3.2亿泥沙本来上面有3.2亿泥沙那现在这一次下来7000万泥沙还有2.5亿泥沙左右但是"},{"start":54.517,"end":80.026,"text":"他講的我後來特別注意到他講的所謂是泥沙的部分並不是水量的部分今天幾個部會給我們的數據就說現在到目前為止馬太安溪的這個堰塞湖的水量約蓄水量是155萬公噸所以我先請教一下因為9月24號本期有看到一個數字是李洪源部長這邊有跟內政部這邊來做討論是說9月24號上面還有所謂3000萬公噸的水量"},{"start":84.79,"end":97.015,"text":"那到今天提供的資料只剩155萬公噸所以是不是這個驗射壺它其實還是有持續有把這些水量排放的一個狀況說明一下好不好我想因為監測單位是農業部我請他來回應好嗎"},{"start":102.393,"end":126.574,"text":"跟委員報告目前確實是他達到一個差不多平衡的狀態就是進多少水他就出多少水所以他其實過去到現在一直還是有所謂的水量有流失的一個狀況是不是自然的流失他目前是維持平衡目前的這個水量沒有太多的消長那現在會因為是您剛所說到剩下150萬噸"},{"start":128.482,"end":155.531,"text":"跟之前的数据有比较大差是因为我们重新安装水位计之后发现到它应该是在之前923的时候溢流溃绝的过程当中它有很多的泥沙也往湖区来沉积然后当天下大雨所以也有很多泥沙进来所以它现在的湖底的形状可能从原本比较像一个碗的形状变成是一个浅碟子的形状所以水量是变少但是那边的问题现在是"},{"start":155.991,"end":166.883,"text":"您剛所提到土砂的問題是泥沙的問題嗎是 所以我想要確認的地方就是說你今天白紫黑字的資料是155萬公噸的水量對那泥沙勒"},{"start":167.919,"end":191.77,"text":"泥沙现在李洪源部长他在上个礼拜的记者会其实让我们这个数字我觉得相信对于当地的居民来说或者说全国民众来说也是会感到焦虑的就是说上面有3.2亿吨的泥沙但这一次即便是那么严重的风灾只下来了7000不能讲只下来了7000万公吨那上面还有2.5亿"},{"start":193.956,"end":197.624,"text":"那會不會接下來現在極端氣候那我們要怎麼樣因應"},{"start":198.598,"end":223.431,"text":"我覺得這才是關鍵嘛對這也是我們後續要特別在監測跟防範的那就是上頭的這些差不多還有2.5億萬立方的這個泥沙他未來會隨著比如說大雨這個他有可能還是會逐漸往下一動那即使是沒有好大雨的情況下長期有時候下小雨他還是會比較緩慢的向下移動"},{"start":224.191,"end":243.584,"text":"所以包含最下游的青枢还有刚刚今天大家所关注的堤防的这个加高还有就是说怎么样在中上游想办法能够有一些蓝沙或主沙不要让这些沙一次一次性的严重性的对对这个都是后续从上中下游都要去努力的好"},{"start":244.795,"end":266.392,"text":"那所以剛剛也確認是說現在確實上面還有2.5億公噸的一個泥沙是好那現在比較積極的作為我相信一定會有可是如果說短時間內這可能就要回來到部長這邊部長上禮拜我記得我質詢的時候有特別詢問過所謂有沒有中央啟動千春計畫那當時您給我的答覆是說一個禮拜現在在一"},{"start":268.724,"end":286.31,"text":"諮詢相關這個村民的一個意見對受災戶的意見那現在狀況怎麼樣你說一個禮拜內跟委員報告那個我們現在在重災戶的部分呢幾乎每一戶都有找到人因為有的時候他們到收容安置或者依親到別的地方那我們現在呢所以我們重災戶這樣子總共計算下來89戶"},{"start":289.071,"end":295.078,"text":"那現在有58戶在收容安置那39戶依親那目前為止有40戶表達需要中繼屋那到目前為止沒有人表達要遷村"},{"start":305.248,"end":334.269,"text":"那這個是個別災戶的意見所以我們現在可能就是先朝著說在台塘的一塊五公頃的土地上面看是不是先來蓋中繼屋然後才慢慢解決他們未來收容安置的問題所以說中繼屋有可能是在台塘這邊會由內政部這邊來做進行嗎是的 我們會負責處理這一塊但是他們要不要去中繼屋還要再問他們你剛剛有提到就是說有40戶表達意願是他們是希望去中繼屋所以說其實也還沒有到一半"},{"start":335.129,"end":348.072,"text":"因為你89戶的重災戶嘛那剩下的這些重災戶勒有的人可能要移清有的人可能要移清有人要移清有人要租屋有的人要回到原住所"},{"start":348.706,"end":359.23,"text":"因為本席有看到您這邊今天內政部的相關資料有包括說衣輕有包括說租屋補貼或是租金補貼或是短期旅宿等等的部分這是最近現在這個狀態現在這個狀態但比較長期的狀態重災戶是89戶是"},{"start":365.712,"end":392.477,"text":"所以本席現在想確認的地方就說因為剛剛我們也詢問完畢了嘛就說上面如果說至少有2.5億公噸的泥沙那其某程度上我們短時間內也沒有辦法有比較積極的作為當然你有123的步驟但實際上在那個地方到底適不適合居住這可能大家都還要再評估甚至打一個問號所以說我們現在想是說怎麼樣保障地方的鄉親的一個權利本席那個時候提出來當時在"},{"start":394.734,"end":413.071,"text":"不管是921地震或是88風災莫拉克風災的時候其實就是中央跟地方有一起配合尤其是中央提出所謂的災後復原計畫條例那並且中央這邊協助引導不管是部會的溝通以及編列的預算還有後續的整合的部分"},{"start":413.789,"end":417.73,"text":"所以我現在才請教是說那到底我們後續這一個部分重災戶也好或是說花蓮的鄉親在這邊的一個鄉親他後續何去何從報告委員我們上個禮拜的行政院議會已經有通過一個丹納斯颱風加上這一次這個那個豔賽湖的部分"},{"start":433.175,"end":438.837,"text":"所以我們的預算呢是編列250億就除了丹納斯以外的這個600億以外編列250億那針對後續的這個收容安置的部分的話大概我們提出三種條件一個就是異地重建一個是原地重建那這個部分呢當然是要問過災民的意見那還有一個在這中間的中繼的部分的話呢我要求我們的次長來協助看是不是這個東華大學"},{"start":461.986,"end":465.768,"text":"跟都市防災有關的或是區域計劃有關的幫我們做一下基本上如果未來這個地方仍然有這個驗賽湖的這個危機的話要不要做不同的都市計劃包括說是不是整個要遷移到某個地方因為這一次呢目前為止是緩和的狀態明年的汛期有沒有更大的颱風要來沒有人敢保證"},{"start":487.763,"end":506.742,"text":"甚至不一定以現在的極端氣候其實你說十月有可能台風也會沒有人敢沒有人敢預測也因此這個事情要快要一快不一慢嘛是所以我們希望在兩三個月之內啊包括東華大學的這個都市建築研究所在提供告訴我們說過去的歷史紀錄裡面以來"},{"start":509.524,"end":525.137,"text":"現在的重災區媽祖街那個地方89戶是不是都不宜居住那這個部分出來以後我們會朝著這方向再跟花蓮縣政府或是光復鄉公所來做比較好的溝通是因為其實我覺得對災民來講他們也需要是專業的判斷"},{"start":525.657,"end":528.859,"text":"告訴他們說到底他們的家園後續要怎麼做會對於他們的生命財產安全其實是最有利的幫助對 這是中長期我們要處理的計畫但在短期內就是我們這兩天這個紀連城政委希望跟花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所展開處理一下疏散撤離的機制"},{"start":543.906,"end":554.179,"text":"因為現在的人已經不居住在原地是他在收容安置所或在別的地方所以怎麼樣把人口做最好的清查知道他人在哪裡到時候有狀況怎麼樣把它撤離出來才不會找不到人那這樣會對於那個有效的這個做疏散撤離計畫會打折"},{"start":562.064,"end":571.746,"text":"所以我想雖然我們不是花蓮鄉親但是我們對花蓮鄉親的關心是沒有分彼此的報告委員我們現在跟花蓮縣政委一樣都是為期一級開設這個一級開設其實每一天滾動進來的數據我們都會做判斷所以才會有前進指揮所陸陸續續有市長跟政務委員都在現場幫忙"},{"start":586.289,"end":612.186,"text":"我想很多跨部會應該處理的部分我想行政院都非常盡力在幫忙處理一快不一慢啦就像我那天總執軍的時候特別提到是說後續的這個所謂的重建計畫等等的也希望能夠有政委來做一個調和不管是農業部不管是內政部相關部會都一起來做我還是再次強調就是說雖然花蓮我們並不是花蓮的鄉親但是花蓮在這一次的受災我們全國都感同身受"},{"start":612.574,"end":621.401,"text":"也因此特別運用這個機會來跟您就教未來我們還會持續追蹤也請內政部把握這樣子一個專業的精神勇於認識謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1329,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時39分）主席謝謝，麻煩請內政部劉世芳部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：可能農業部次長也麻煩。"],["主席：還有農業部次長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，今天當然大家都關心堰塞湖相關的後續狀況，其實就是花蓮的一個部分嘛！我先跟您這邊再做一個確認，因為本席記得兩個禮拜前在特別條例質詢的時候我有請教，當時李鴻源前部長也是用他專家的意見，他說目前還有3.2億噸泥沙，本來上面有3.2億噸泥沙，這一次下來7,000萬噸泥沙，還有2.5億噸左右的泥沙，但是我後來特別注意到，他講的是泥沙的部分，並不是水量的部分。","根據今天幾個部會給我們的數據，到目前為止，馬太鞍溪這個堰塞湖的蓄水量是155萬公噸，所以我先請教一下，在9月24日本席有看到一個數字，李鴻源部長跟內政部這邊的討論是說9月24日上面還有3,000萬公噸的水量，到今天提供的資料只剩155萬公噸，是不是這個堰塞湖還是有持續排放水量的一個狀況？說明一下，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：因為監測單位是農業部，我請他來回應好嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：好，沒有問題，來。"],["林署長華慶：跟委員報告，目前確實是達到一個差不多平衡的狀態，就是進多少水它就出多少水。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它其實過去到現在，一直還是有水量流失的狀況，是不是？自然地流失。"],["林署長華慶：它目前是維持平衡，目前的水量沒有太多的消長。您剛剛說到剩下155萬噸，跟之前的數據有比較大的差異是因為我們重新安裝水位計之後，發現到它應該是在之前923溢流潰決的過程當中，有很多的泥沙也往湖區來沈積，然後當天下大雨也有很多泥沙進來，它現在湖底的形狀可能從原本比較像一個碗的形狀，變成是一個淺碟子的形狀，所以水量是變少，但是現在那邊的問題是您剛剛所提到的，土沙的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是泥沙的問題嘛！"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以我想要確認的地方是，你今天白紙黑字的資料是155萬公噸的水量。"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那泥沙呢？"],["林署長華慶：泥沙，現在加……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為李鴻源部長他在上個禮拜的記者會，其實這個數字我相信對於當地的居民來說，或是對全國民眾來說，也是會感到焦慮的。"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是說上面有3.2億噸的泥沙，但這一次即便是那麼嚴重的風災，只下來了7,000萬，不能講只啦！下來了7,000萬公噸，上面還有2.5億噸的泥沙，因為現在是極端氣候，我們要怎麼樣因應？我覺得這才是關鍵嘛！"],["林署長華慶：對，這也是我們後續要特別再監測與防範的，上頭差不多還有2.5億萬立方的泥沙……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這個是確認的。"],["林署長華慶：它未來會隨著比如說大雨，它有可能還是會逐漸往下移動，即使是沒有豪大雨的情況下，長期有時候下小雨，它還是會比較緩慢地向下移動，所以包含最下游的清疏，還有今天大家所關注的堤防加高，還有就是怎麼樣在中上游想辦法能夠有一些攔沙或阻沙，不要讓這些沙一次很大量地往下集中。"],["洪委員孟楷：一次性的、嚴重性的直接……"],["林署長華慶：對，這個都是後續從上中下游都要去努力的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以剛剛也確認現在上面確實還有2.5億公噸的泥沙。"],["林署長華慶：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，現在比較積極的作為我相信一定會有，可是如果說短時間內，這個可能就要回到部長這邊。部長，上禮拜我記得我質詢的時候有特別詢問過有沒有中央啟動遷村計畫，當時您給我的答復是說一個禮拜，現在在諮詢相關村民的意見。"],["劉部長世芳：受災戶。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，受災戶的意見。現在的狀況怎麼樣？你說一個禮拜內。"],["劉部長世芳：有，跟委員報告，我們現在在重災戶的部分，幾乎每一戶都有找到人，因為有的時候他們到收容安置或者依親到別的地方，我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以重災戶這樣子計算下來……"],["劉部長世芳：89戶。"],["洪委員孟楷：89戶，好。"],["劉部長世芳：現在有58戶在收容安置，39戶依親，有40戶表達需要中繼屋，到目前為止沒有人表達要遷村，這個是個別災戶的意見，所以我們現在可能先朝著在台糖的一塊5公頃土地上面，看是不是先來蓋中繼屋，然後才慢慢解決他們未來收容安置的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以說中繼屋有可能是在台糖這邊，會由內政部這邊來進行嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，我們會負責處理這一塊。"],["洪委員孟楷：內政部這邊……"],["劉部長世芳：但是他們要不要去中繼屋，還要再問他們。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。你剛剛提到有40戶表達意願，他們是希望去中繼屋，其實也還沒有到一半喔！因為有89戶的重災戶嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那剩下的這些重災戶咧？您現在掌握的狀況。"],["劉部長世芳：有的人可能要依親。"],["洪委員孟楷：39戶依親。"],["劉部長世芳：有的人要依親，有人要租屋，有的人要回到原住所。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為本席有看到今天內政部的相關資料，有包括依親，有包括租屋補貼、租金補貼或是短期旅宿等等的部分嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，這是最近，現在這個狀態。"],["洪委員孟楷：但比較長期的狀態……"],["劉部長世芳：重災戶是89戶。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以本席現在想確認的地方，因為剛剛我們也詢問完畢了嘛！上面如果說至少有2.5億公噸的泥沙，其實某種程度上，我們短時間內也沒有辦法有比較積極的作為，當然你有一、二、三的步驟，但是實際上在那個地方到底適不適合居住，這個可能大家都還要再評估，甚至打一個問號。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們現在想的是怎麼樣保障地方鄉親的權利。本席那個時候有提出來，當時不管是在921地震或是88風災，莫拉克風災的時候，其實就是中央跟地方有一起配合，尤其是中央提出所謂的災後復原計畫條例，並且由中央這邊協助引導，不管是部會的溝通、編列的預算以及後續整合的部分，所以我現在才請教說到底我們後續的這個部分，重災戶也好，或是在這邊的花蓮鄉親，他後續何去何從？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們上個禮拜的行政院院會已經有通過一個丹娜絲颱風加上這一次堰塞湖的部分，所以我們的預算是編列250億，除了丹娜絲的600億以外，編列250億。","針對後續收容安置的部分，大概我們提出三種條件，一個就是異地重建，一個是原地重建，這個部分當然是要問過災民的意見。還有一個，在這中間的中繼部分，我要求我們的次長來協助，看是不是東華大學跟都市防災有關的或是區域計畫有關的來幫我們做一下，基本上如果未來這個地方仍然有堰塞湖危機的話，要不要做不同的都市計畫，包括是不是要整個遷移到某個地方，因為這一次到目前為止是緩和的狀態，但明年的汛期有沒有更大的颱風要來，沒有人敢保證，所以我們在短期之內會先……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，甚至不一定，以現在的極端氣候，其實你說10月，有可能颱風也會形成。"],["劉部長世芳：沒有人敢預測。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有人敢預測。"],["劉部長世芳：人定無法勝天，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：也因此這個事情要快，要宜快不宜慢嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我們希望在2、3個月之內，包括東華大學的都市建築研究所再告訴我們說過去的歷史紀錄以來，現在的重災區佛祖街那個地方，89戶是不是都不宜居住？這個部分出來以後，我們會朝著這個方向再跟花蓮縣政府或是光復鄉公所來做比較好的溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，其實我覺得對災民來講，他們也需要專業的判斷……"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：告訴他們說到底他們的家園後續要怎麼做，對於他們的生命財產安全會是最有利的幫助。"],["劉部長世芳：對，這是中長期我們要處理的計畫，但是短期內，這兩天季連成政委希望跟花蓮縣政府還有3個鄉鎮公所趕快處理一下疏散撤離的機制，因為現在的人已經不居住在原地，他在收容安置所或在別的地方，所以怎麼樣把人口做最好的清查，知道他人在哪裡，到時候有狀況怎麼樣把他撤離出來，才不會找不到人，這樣對於有效地做疏散撤離計畫會打折。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我想雖然我們不是花蓮鄉親，但是我們對於花蓮鄉親的關心是沒有分彼此的，在這一次……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在和花蓮縣政府一樣，都是維持一級開設，這個一級開設其實每一天滾動進來的數據我們都會做判斷，所以才會有前進指揮所，陸陸續續有次長跟政務委員都在現場幫忙，我想很多跨部會應該處理的部分，行政院都非常盡力在幫忙處理當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：宜快不宜慢啦！"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：就像我那一天總質詢的時候，我特別提到後續的重建計畫等等，也希望能夠有政委來做調和，不管是農業部，不管是內政部，相關部會都一起來做。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我還是再次強調，雖然我們並不是花蓮的鄉親，但是花蓮在這一次的受災我們全國都感同身受，也因此特別運用這個機會來跟您就教，未來我們還會持續追蹤，也請內政部把握這樣子的專業精神，勇於任事，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","接下來是翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員不在。","接下來是鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員不在。","接下來是伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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兩位發言人邀請部長部長辛苦了我想碰到這樣的事情大家都很心痛但是我們要團結好好的努力去將我們必要做的一定要把它做到到位要精進的我們要好好精進"},{"start":31.878,"end":49.651,"text":"那所以呢我看到你的這個資料裡頭也據媒體報導在10月9號我們看到你有一個預告有一個預告也就是年底到明年初要在12個縣市成立原民特首隊來強化部落防災救災的一個量能"},{"start":50.171,"end":70.36,"text":"那我們也看到據統計739個部落當中446處就是屬於環境敏感的地區188處是屬於孤島型的部落那災難發生時不管是交通中斷通訊失聯這種看得到到不了"},{"start":71.46,"end":98.333,"text":"的情況那麼似乎現在我們看到常態那如果中央呢我們在整個都市計畫的這個消防邏輯設計是以這個為主那更欠缺了一個統一訓練跟調度的一個機制那我深怕我深怕我們的原民特首隊又會成為一個流雨形勢所以我本行因為我們台中自己為我們的部落早上我也跟經濟"},{"start":99.494,"end":126.819,"text":"部長也在討論也就是當他偏鄉他一旦發生災難的時候他的店也沒有辦法進去的時候那麼微型電網必須能夠佈建在那裡讓他們至少三天72小時他是可以應對的那所以呢本期非常的希望原民特收隊他不是流於行事而是真正能夠在地防災在地這個救災那請教"},{"start":129.019,"end":145.845,"text":"部長你們的進度跟你們的方向報告委員我們10月9號的時候我要求我們的消防署跟12個縣市包括台中市在內成立這個原民特授隊那原民特授隊呢第一個譬如說他退休的這個特種這個部隊的成員"},{"start":148.886,"end":163.509,"text":"或者是在國家公園署或者是現在的內政部有這個山地原住民的這些身份的人他們能夠就地經過我們在南投縣竹山的這個消防特收的訓練之後才能夠成立而不是流於形式"},{"start":164.19,"end":185.233,"text":"那這個人是外加的一定要受過訓練如果沒有受過訓練取得資格的話就不叫特收隊我們的目的就是要在地防救跟在地防災基本上是在地但是如果萬一有更大的部分也是要協同幫忙處理其他的部分"},{"start":186.414,"end":210.567,"text":"必須要跨部會這個很重要原民會跟我們一起舉行記者會所以就是內政部跟原民會會一起來推動好那接下來本席要跟你討論的炸氣犯罪呢他是已經高度的數位化高度的數位化那他不只數位化他還跨境化他甚至我們現在如果傳統能力的掙扎是難以應付"},{"start":211.314,"end":213.795,"text":"但是因為人工智慧AI它又可以很快速的去處理龐大的資料而且可以分析交易跟IP的一個流量那預測異常的行為對於跨國整個網路的詐欺破案它是有影響力的"},{"start":230.245,"end":233.326,"text":"但是我們也看到AI他仍舊沒有辦法去取代在現場蒐證跟情緒的判斷如果演算錯誤的話那又會導致人權的一個爭議所以部長跟警政署相關單位"},{"start":247.731,"end":253.572,"text":"目前我們所規劃的AI輔助這個偵查制度當中我們的標準的這個流程以及審查的流程還有也就是在我們釐清警察的AI的培訓這一點是非常非常的重要因為我們的目的要確保AI在打擊犯罪詐騙的時候能夠成為真正的這個幫助而不是成為主力請教部長"},{"start":279.099,"end":293.418,"text":"委員非常的先進知道說AI可以輔助我們在警政署尤其是警政同仁在從事司法警察工作上面的困擾我們當然也是一樣AI它沒有辦法跟人一樣"},{"start":294.179,"end":312.22,"text":"所以現在AI對我們來講他是屬於科技偵查裡面非常重要的一部分包括我們要處理龐大的資料量或者是要分析或者是IP這些都是屬於後端在做科技偵查裡面必要的手段那目前為止我們在處理的方向不會觸及到真人"},{"start":312.56,"end":333.63,"text":"所以比較沒有人權上面的一個必須要以現在的法律來規範的以外的部分不會超出我們的法制外那也謝謝我們在這個上個會期跟這個會期裡面我們在警政署裡面通過一個大的這個流量記錄器這個大概三年要用一百零二億的部分就是我們累積大量的資料來做分析"},{"start":334.15,"end":345.139,"text":"那也跟委員報告目前我們的警政署尤其是刑事局的科技偵查中心大概從歷次的這個詐騙案裡面已經累計出來我們大概會鎖定大概是有9萬個這個帳號或是9萬的他是屬於有潛在高風險"},{"start":350.423,"end":375.743,"text":"那既然是潛在高風險我們就會針對潛在高風險這是經過AI的幫忙來去處理怎麼樣提醒他不要踏入這個詐騙的陷阱大概是後端的科學技術上面增防非常重要的一部分所以這也是全世界的一個趨勢但是我們要注意在整個培訓方面本席認為這是非常重要因為在整個判斷方面如果判斷錯誤那整個也會歪樓"},{"start":378.425,"end":389.372,"text":"所以本席還是建議我們在AI的這個員警的一個培訓方面你必須必須要與時俱進是我們每一個刑事局每一個刑事單位都有科技偵查隊這以前講針灸隊那他們應該是在法律的規範之下才能夠從事這方面的工作"},{"start":398.018,"end":422.204,"text":"這非常重要 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開挖易洪道 開挖易洪道有困難最起碼修築堤防 故傳功德寫得非常清清楚楚很遺憾當時的會議 水利署請來的是誰呢一樣九合集 他能做嗎 沒有預算給他沒有經費給他 他怎麼去做呢 對不對"},{"start":427.438,"end":450.365,"text":"好我們看就是有發生了個災害之後水利署很辛苦的動員了各分署的機器工程人員10月5號加高完成10月5號從8月24號發生災害9月24號發生9月23號發生災害9月24號開始"},{"start":456.638,"end":484.36,"text":"去看了解再寫9月25號緊急施作短短的時間所以如果我們從去年抗類颱風之後如果能夠積極的處理不要說一洪道了防範潰壩真的有困難的話最起碼是修築堤防"},{"start":485.936,"end":514.743,"text":"就不會衝到部落 衝到社區衝毀這個相關的人民所以這個部分中企就是明年4月會完成復建工程所以這個時間你看如果當初當然水利署你沒有經費必須行政要給你經費所以這個部分都是環環相扣的環環相扣"},{"start":517.696,"end":542.586,"text":"我們看這個經濟部的報告好國有林地菸塞浮應變標準作業程序請問一下這個林業署農業部這個國有林地菸塞浮應變標準作業程序是你們訂的嗎對你們訂的對不對要不要檢討要嘛要檢討要檢討"},{"start":546.511,"end":572.567,"text":"現在顯然這個應變標準作業程序難以防範難以所以這個都是要檢討所以你們很辛苦的去救災的同時怎麼樣把防範因為台灣多山啊多菸塞浮啊所以這個部分"},{"start":574.366,"end":602.568,"text":"多要所以看到這樣的一個情形真的我們不要集中在某些該檢討的當然要檢討該怎麼樣能夠做得更好防範未來非常非常的重要所以這個部分也請這個尤其是內政部因為障害防救法是你們的法律"},{"start":603.041,"end":620.399,"text":"主管機關怎麼樣災害的預防更甚於後續的救災所以這個部分災害預防非常非常的重要大家一起加油一起努力謝謝好謝謝委員支持"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1275,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：好，部長還有大家都辛苦了。今天本席提出一些資料，不是要究責，而是要從這一次的災害當中，我們怎麼樣去做更好的防範。我們看這一次的馬太鞍堰塞湖，花蓮光復及鳳林的嚴重災害有三大項，第一個就是人民的傷亡，人民的傷亡的原因當然跟沒有完全撤離有關係，這是第一個原因。第二，未處理防範堰塞湖潰壩，這是第二個原因，其實是主要的原因。第三，人民傷亡的原因，就是堤防未修築加固加高，這兩個才是最重要的，撤離是最後的。","第二個嚴重災害是房屋淹水、土石、家具沖毀、汽車及機車沖毀、農田農作物淹埋土石，加上道路，還有很多公共設施被沖毀，它主要的原因與撤離無關，跟撤離沒有關係，而是跟沒有處理、防範堰塞湖潰壩有關，另外當然就是堤防未修築、加固、加高。第三個，馬太鞍溪的橋被沖毀，當然主要就是這個堰塞湖沒有處理、沒有防範潰壩。","我們看今天的這個災害防救法第二十二條，為減少災害發生或防止災害擴大，各級政府要怎麼樣？要減災，包括「治山、防洪及其他國土保全」、「災害潛勢、危險度、境況模擬與風險評估之調查分析及適時公布其結果」，這些都有公布了，我們來看一下。","這是今天農業部的報告，你們從114年7月下旬去談今天這麼重大的災害，這是你們今天的報告。其中提到花蓮分署、7月26號空勤……然後提到7月26號林業署花蓮分署成立堰塞湖應變小組。就一個「花蓮分署」，這個層級就須要檢討，一個花蓮分署就只能找一些，比如像九河分署，對不對？所以這個層級就有問題、就需要檢討了。","我們看農業部的報告，7月26號起這個航遙測分署是怎麼做這些工作的。8月11日是陽明大學，成大是8月20號，已經是8月中旬以後了，這個都是要去……這一次的災情這麼大，要怎麼去做更好的措施？可以看到農業部的報告寫到7月26號，剛剛講了花蓮分署召開應變小組，8月6號花蓮分署做防災工作，這也是花蓮分署而已，一直到8月27號才提高到行政院的層級，由行政院責成農業部，還是責成農業部而已！這個部分我都還沒有全部列完。","我們來看，這是農業部林業署的資料，這是你們的馬太鞍溪堰塞湖現況的報告單。這裡面寫得很清楚，馬鞍溪支流92年已有崩塌的現象。我把字放大了，109年起支流上游裸露面積逐年擴大，以及主流馬鞍溪匯流處有時有蓄水，有時無蓄水，蓄水面積約0.25公頃。113年康芮颱風後加大了，這是去年的，我們就不談109年了，最起碼去（113）年我們就要深刻地檢討。","本席從8月初開始知道，從媒體開始知道這個訊息，所以我在8月13號提了這個附帶決議。這裡面提到了很重要的事，在工程措施方面要挖溢洪道、修築堤防、固床工等，8月15號立法院通過了這個決議。本席在8月20號發文給相關的部會召開協調會，因為我看到訊息說10月初就要溢流了，所以我8月20號開了協調會，特別提到要依立法院的決議，要開挖溢洪道。開挖溢洪道有困難的話，最起碼要修築堤防、固床工等，寫得非常清清楚楚。很遺憾，當時的會議，水利署請來的是誰呢？一樣是九河局，他能做嗎？沒有預算給他，沒有經費給他，他怎麼去做呢？對不對？","我們看，就在發生這個災害之後，水利署很辛苦地動員了各分署的機具、工程人員，10月5號加高完成。從9月23號發生災害，9月24號開始去了解災情，9月25號緊急施作，短短的時間。如果我們從去年9月的康芮颱風之後就能積極地處理，不要說溢洪道了，防範潰壩真的有困難的話，最起碼也要修築堤防，就不會沖到部落、沖到社區、沖毀相關的人民。這個部分的中期就是明年4月會完成復建工程，所以這個時間，你看，如果當初……當然水利署沒有經費，行政院就必須要給予經費，所以這個部分都是環環相扣的。","我們來看經濟部的報告，有關「國有林地堰塞湖應變標準作業程序」，請問一下林業署、農業部，這個「國有林地堰塞湖應變標準作業程序」是你們訂的嗎？"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是你們訂的對不對？要不要檢討？要檢討。顯然現在的這個應變標準作業程序難以防範，難以……所以這些都要檢討。在你們很辛苦去救災的同時，怎麼把防範……因為臺灣多山、多堰塞湖，所以這個部分都要做。看到這樣的一個情形，真的，我們不要集中在某些……該檢討的當然要檢討，該怎麼做得更好、防範未然非常、非常地重要，所以這個部分尤其要請內政部，因為災害防救法是你們主責的法律，你們是主管機關，對災害的預防更勝於後續的救災，災害預防這個部分非常、非常地重要，大家一起加油，一起努力，謝謝。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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有請內政部部長內政部部長"},{"start":18.5,"end":29.889,"text":"委員好部長好 延續上一次質詢的主題就是賴總統針對有關於社會住宅的推動上一次在內政委員會我有請教過一次因為"},{"start":31.212,"end":46.474,"text":"就具體上面來講就是百萬戶怎麼計算這件事情我上次質詢有說過我就不要再重複現在大家關注的焦點在於賴總統所提出來的政見跟施政的計畫其中興建社會住宅要有13萬戶"},{"start":48.57,"end":73.229,"text":"但非常多的NGO還有年輕人大家都在關心一件事情就是13萬戶的社會住宅目前他們所得到的資訊因為這個是NGO的朋友跟一些年輕人他們來反映他們掌握到的資訊是不是客觀真實如果有不對的地方等一下也請部長一併釐清他們目前所掌握到的資訊是說"},{"start":74.89,"end":86.802,"text":"內政部針對有關於興建社會住宅所提出來的一個計畫後來行政院不願意去核定然後卡在行政院事情是不是這個樣子"},{"start":88.111,"end":113.365,"text":"報告委員應該是說行政院對於我們所提的三個方案就是直接興建社會住宅包租貸款還有所謂的租金補貼他們認為租金補貼啊算不算是屬於社會住宅的一種當然是啊後來我們解釋過他願意接受部長您看一下所以才會核定我講話都很具體的啦包租貸款多少興建多少租屋補貼多少"},{"start":114.145,"end":135.342,"text":"當初賴總統講得很清楚所以三個數字我是個別列的現在表格上面部長有看到嗎右手邊賴清德預計達成戶數包租貸款17萬戶新建13萬戶租金補貼10萬戶這個是賴總統當初所提出來的證件那個表格我整理得蠻清楚部長這樣看應該可以掌握啦"},{"start":136.609,"end":157.866,"text":"現在大家關心的事情是說包租代管也好 租金補貼也好現在我今天延續著上一次質詢的主題大家關心的是新建社會住宅的部分新建社會住宅的部分大家看到的是說目前你們新建社會住宅的計畫卡在行政院到目前為止沒有核定 是嗎"},{"start":158.578,"end":182.252,"text":"不是我剛跟您報告過就是說這三個方案裡面行政院只有對於這個租金補貼的定義會不會像我們所述的所以後來行政院還是以百萬戶為主對不起我現在在問的是新建社會住宅我知道所以他沒有特別強調說那沒有關係我現在問一下是目前按政府所核定要新建社會住宅今年核定了幾戶"},{"start":183.482,"end":199.904,"text":"今年核定的我可不可以把全部跟您報告一下好不好我們如果用那個每一年的部分的話每一年的目標是5000到5000先不用跟我講目標因為目標我後來有整理出來了今年核定的幾戶到114年9月底的時候全國社會住宅已經達到"},{"start":201.686,"end":216.156,"text":"這個直接興辦的部分是十二萬一千人不是啊 那是以前舊的資料我說你要新的你要新的新建的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶不是以前舊的Data新的你要蓋的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶我現在的部分就是這樣的我們的目標是二十二萬戶現在已經達成十二萬戶啊部長不好意思齁我現在在問A但是你一直在回答B我再跟你講一次齁"},{"start":229.864,"end":243.894,"text":"你們現在針對有關於興建社會住宅不是包租代管不是租金補貼是要蓋房子起來的社會住宅你們今年合併的計畫合併的幾戶要興建我手頭上沒有"},{"start":244.955,"end":254.463,"text":"是有這個數字還是說根本沒有核定當然有這個數字但是我手頭上沒有這個數字沒有關係沒有沒有沒有 是我上一次問的時候我上一次問的時候吳興修署長跟我講的是這件事情還在討論"},{"start":263.371,"end":275.562,"text":"還在研議還在規劃沒有一個答案今天部長在備詢台上說有今年有核定要興建社會住宅的戶數只是您現在手上沒有這個數字對嗎"},{"start":278.601,"end":302.938,"text":"今年已經到10月 當然我們已經有核定的部分對 現在核定了幾戶 現在你沒有這個數字沒有關係 你會後 什麼時候核定的 核定了幾戶書面資料給我好不好我請副署長到時候再給您講可以 因為現在您今天在上面講的跟大家所掌握的資訊 落差非常的大因為10月9號的時候 我們的辦公室問國土署"},{"start":303.838,"end":317.934,"text":"國土署回覆給我們的是針對興建社會住宅的部分內政部修正的計畫提給行政院到目前為止還沒有核定這個是我在10月9號的時候辦公室的同仁所得到的回覆"},{"start":318.675,"end":337.913,"text":"那按照部長的說法是有核定只是你現在不知道幾戶我再確認一次是這樣沒有錯嗎那我要把時間表再弄清楚沒有關係因為到時候為什麼國土署在10月9號是這樣回覆我們辦公室同仁我們再搞清楚但我最關心的事情是什麼我直接跟部長講"},{"start":338.894,"end":343.959,"text":"這個直接新辦戶數這個是各個年度預計累計的新辦戶數你說每一年有計畫譬如說114年就今年2025年要有15000戶115年要有15000戶116年要有15000戶這個計畫上面的數字"},{"start":359.252,"end":373.344,"text":"我們都看到了但計畫歸計畫我們目前看到的事情是說按照內政部的計畫書今年要招標一萬五千戶今年有任何一戶招標嗎好可以"},{"start":379.161,"end":387.206,"text":"包括租屋中心也持續在現在那個盤點的土地上面其實陸陸續續都有今年招標的幾戶詳細數字一樣會後提供一樣因為這個是"},{"start":395.407,"end":410.988,"text":"你剛剛所講的過去計畫幾戶然後完成的幾戶每一個數字把它列出來大概是這個樣子但是我要說的事情是我們目前所掌握到的資訊因為社會住宅的進度包括內政部公告的資料其實我都有定期在追蹤"},{"start":411.889,"end":426.262,"text":"因為一定要定期追蹤才知道說實際上面的進度是什麼我們目前所掌握到的資料目前在處理的社會住宅都還是蔡英文總統任內他們所核定的賴清德總統任內所核定興建的社會住宅"},{"start":427.003,"end":454.052,"text":"我到今天備詢為止我所掌握到的資訊是零戶但是部長說不對說有那只是數字你沒有辦法提供那會後再提供沒有關係我們到會後再進一步跟部長討教這個數字因為有進度最重要有進度最重要下一個問題是跟內政部也有關係的跟內政部有什麼關係呢因為我們為了要發展地熱"},{"start":455.41,"end":478.044,"text":"為了要發展地熱的發電經濟部的地礦中心在陽明山國家公園管理處辦理探勘在這個過程當中造成了什麼造成了井噴所以陽明山那邊的住戶非常非常的關心那針對這件事情我有問過地礦中心地礦中心說這個廠商在執行的過程當中"},{"start":479.744,"end":495.71,"text":"出了一些狀況出了一些狀況那顯然就是沒有把這個案子給執行所以出現了這樣子的災難那下一個問題是針對有關於國家公園管理處在國家公園境內有廠商"},{"start":496.61,"end":522.809,"text":"沒有依照應該有的規格跟標準去執行地質探灘作業而造成廠商的損害的這一件事情有兩個部分一個依照國家公園法該開法就開法只是開法的金額很可笑新台幣三千元這個不是我真的在意的我真的在意的是它對於國家公園所造成的傷害這個損害到底要怎麼樣去填補的問題"},{"start":525.231,"end":547.849,"text":"那我現在所得到的資訊是說目前針對有關於破壞陽明山國家公園森林的結果我們的內政部國家公園管理處是跟經濟部地礦中心求償不是跟廠商求償這個是怎麼回事因為當時在申請的時候是經濟部他是用研究計畫的方式所以我們就認為是經濟部他應該負責全責"},{"start":550.203,"end":567.356,"text":"那你們為什麼不是跟實際的行為人求償呢那如果是這樣的話經濟部可以跟實際的行為人求償好第二個問題目前陽明山國家公園管理處我先講兩個問題的層次啦因為整個事情我看了覺得蠻好笑的"},{"start":568.322,"end":590.378,"text":"我們的陽明山國家公園管理處跟經濟部的地礦中心求償等於是跟國家的左手跟國家的右手求償錢全部都是納稅人的錢重點是跟廠商求償但我現在最關心的一個問題是說求償的這一百多萬國家公園管理處是按照什麼樣子的基準計算出來的因為我所得到的我所得到一方面"},{"start":596.693,"end":621.185,"text":"是居住在陽明山那邊居民的陳情那另外一方面是什麼另外一方面是有人去施壓啦當這個廠商說相啦這個廠商後台很硬啦開了三番的協調會談 這個我事後再追 跟內政部沒有關係 但我關心的事情是什麼 我關心的事情是內政部國家公園管理處針對這個球場的金額是怎麼計算出來的 第二個這個錢夠嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":629.244,"end":651.975,"text":"報告委員應該是根據當時經濟部的地礦局跟這個廠商他們之間到底是怎麼樣一個委託的計畫那是地礦中心跟廠商求償的問題現在第一個是真正該開罰的是國家公園管理處因為他造成我們國家公園的破壞按照你剛剛的說明當初提計畫的人是地礦中心所以你們跟地礦中心討"},{"start":652.995,"end":668.781,"text":"那地礦中心會不會跟廠商討 接下來要去問地礦中心這個過程我都了解所以我的問題是第一棟 什麼叫第一棟國家公園管理處跟地礦中心求償這100多萬的時候我看到這個數字我非常的驚訝我驚訝的理由是說 第一個這個錢夠嗎第二個這個錢怎麼計算出來的"},{"start":674.577,"end":689.608,"text":"他在文章裡面對不起他在給的那個函裡面想得非常清楚就是有關於裡面的數目或者是說裡面的引起的一些富裕上面的問題他都把他寫得非常的是是是所以你看嘛美工請補償第一年十二萬一千嘛"},{"start":690.228,"end":709.142,"text":"第二年六萬兩千九百嘛第三年到第六年每一年四萬塊嘛但我現在的問題還是一樣啊你如果說在探討這個球場的金額合理不合理你只是單純把這個數字加起來沒有意義啊現在我更深一層的問題是這一些每一年多少錢的數字是怎麼估出來的真的夠嗎 這是我的問題"},{"start":714.522,"end":729.123,"text":"時間到了沒有關係啊部長可不可以請你承諾請國家公園管理處會後提供一份說明資料給我清楚的說明為什麼是用這個標準來計算因為釀成了這樣子的災害可能我不懂啊"},{"start":729.764,"end":746.919,"text":"可能我不懂對國家公園的維護原來這樣子一百多萬元就可以解決問題我自己看了是有點反常識我覺得是不夠但是當初國家公園管理處到底怎麼計算出來的他的基準是什麼是不是可以請國家公園管理處會後"},{"start":748.41,"end":771.255,"text":"會後用書面回覆給我 可以嗎國家公園署吧 國家公園署比較好我想是不是請國家公園署跟委員這邊做一下說明 然後包括沒有關係 直接給我書面的養管處為什麼只有酒廠一百多萬 這個部分好嗎直接給我書面的好嗎因為我覺得非常奇怪的是 如果今天是這個廠商必須要負責任的話為什麼"},{"start":773.979,"end":778.801,"text":"最後的金額只有這個樣子這個錢真的夠嗎這個是我現在正在關心的事情需要多久一個禮拜之內可以嗎我想應該可以因為這件事情是七月底所以他們在算的過程當中應該可以嗎已經有依據好OK好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1197,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時5分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請內政部部長。"],["主席：請內政部劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。延續上次質詢的主題，就是賴總統針對社會住宅的推動。上次在內政委員會，我有請教過一次。具體來講，對百萬戶怎麼計算這件事情，我上次質詢有說過，今天就不要再重複。現在大家關注的焦點在於賴總統所提出來的政見和施政計畫，其中興建社會住宅說是要有13萬戶。但是非常多NGO和年輕人都在關心一件事情，就是有關13萬戶的社會住宅，目前他們所得到的資訊。這是NGO的朋友和一些年輕人來反映的，他們所掌握到的資訊是不是客觀真實，如果有不對的地方，等一下也請部長一併釐清。","目前他們所掌握到的資訊是說，內政部針對興建社會住宅所提出來的計畫，後來行政院不願意核定，然後就卡在行政院。事情是不是這個樣子？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，應該是說行政院對於我們所提的3個方案，就是直接興建社會住宅、包租代管還有所謂的租金補貼，他們認為租金補貼算不算社會住宅的一種是有疑慮的。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：後來我們解釋過，它願意接受……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，您看一下……"],["劉部長世芳：所以才會核定300億下來。"],["黃委員國昌：我講話都是很具體的，包租代管多少？興建多少？租屋補貼多少？當初賴總統講得很清楚，所以這3個數字我是個別列在這個表格上的，部長有看到嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：嗯……"],["黃委員國昌：PPT畫面中，表格右邊呈現的「賴清德預計達成戶數」是包租代管17萬戶、興建13萬戶、租金補貼10萬戶，這是賴總統當初所提出來的政見。這個表格我整理得滿清楚的，部長這樣看應該可以掌握啦！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在大家關心的事情是，包租代管也好、租金補貼也好，我今天延續上次質詢的主題，大家關心的是興建社會住宅的部分，這個部分大家看到的是，目前你們興建社會住宅的計畫卡在行政院，到目前為止沒有核定，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我剛剛跟您報告過了，就是這3個方案裡面，行政院只有對租金補貼的定義是不是如我們所述有疑慮，所以後來行政院還是以百萬戶為主……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我現在問的是興建社會住宅。"],["劉部長世芳：我知道。所以它並沒有特別強調……"],["黃委員國昌：那沒有關係，我現在要問一下，今年賴政府核定要興建的社會住宅是幾戶？"],["劉部長世芳：今年核定的？我可不可以把全部的狀況跟您報告一下？我們如果用每一年來看，每年的目標是5,000到1萬……"],["黃委員國昌：先不用跟我講目標，因為目標我後來整理出來了。今年核定了幾戶？"],["劉部長世芳：到114年9月底的時候，全國社會住宅直接興辦的已經達到十二萬一千……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！那是以前舊的資料，我現在要新的！"],["劉部長世芳：114年9月底……"],["黃委員國昌：新的、興建的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶？不是以前舊的data！新的、你要蓋的社會住宅現在核定了幾戶？"],["劉部長世芳：現在的部分就是這樣，我們的目標是22萬戶，現在已經達成12萬戶。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，不好意思，我現在在問A，但是你一直在回答B！我再跟你講一次，你們現在針對有關興建社會住宅，不是包租代管，不是租金補貼，是要蓋房子起來的社會住宅，你們今年核定的計畫是核定要興建幾戶？"],["劉部長世芳：我手頭上沒有這個資料。"],["黃委員國昌：是有這個數字，還是根本沒有核定？"],["劉部長世芳：當然有這個數字，但是我手頭上沒有，我……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天會後……"],["劉部長世芳：我們每年的目標值是5,000到1萬戶。"],["黃委員國昌：我上次問的時候，吳欣修署長跟我講的是這件事情還在討論、還在研議、還在規劃，沒有一個答案。今天部長在備詢臺上說有，今年有核定要興建社會住宅的戶數，只是您現在手上沒有這個數字，對嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：今年已經到10月了，當然我們已經有核定的部分啊！"],["黃委員國昌：那現在核定了幾戶？現在你沒有這個數字？"],["劉部長世芳：我手頭上真的沒有這個數字。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你會後針對什麼時候核定的、核定了幾戶，把書面資料給我好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我請副署長到時候再給您好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。您今天在上面講的，跟大家所掌握的資訊落差非常大，因為10月9日的時候，我們的辦公室問國土署，國土署回復給我們的是針對興建社會住宅的部分，內政部修正的計畫提給行政院，到目前為止還沒有核定。這個是我在10月9日的時候，辦公室的同仁所得到的回復，但是按照部長的說法是有核定，只是你現在不知道幾戶。我再確認一次，是這樣沒有錯嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我要把時間表再弄清楚，就會看到……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為到時候……"],["劉部長世芳：再給委員回復。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼國土署在10月9號是這樣回復我們辦公室同仁，我們再搞清楚，但我最關心的事情是什麼？我直接跟部長講，這個直接興辦戶數，這是各個年度預計累計的興辦戶數，你說每一年有計畫，譬如114年就是今年，2025年要有1萬5,000戶，115年要有1萬5,000戶，116年要有1萬5,000戶，這個計畫上面的數字，我們都看到了，但是計畫歸計畫，我們目前看到的事情是，按照內政部的計畫書，今年要招標1萬5,000戶，今年有任何1戶招標嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我請……"],["黃委員國昌：好，可以。"],["徐副署長燕興：報告，住都中心也持續在進行，現在盤點的土地上面，其實陸陸續續都有。"],["黃委員國昌：今年招標了幾戶？"],["徐副署長燕興：詳細數字，我們可能……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣，會後提供。"],["徐副署長燕興：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這個是你剛剛所講的，過去計畫幾戶，然後完成了幾戶，每一個數字把它列出來，大概是這個樣子，但是我要說的事情是，因為社會住宅的進度，包括內政部公告的資料，其實我都有定期在追蹤，因為一定要定期追蹤才知道實際上面的進度是什麼，我們目前所掌握到的資料，目前在處理的社會住宅都還是蔡英文總統任內所核定的，賴清德總統任內所核定興建的社會住宅，我到今天備詢為止，我所掌握到的資訊是零戶，但是部長說不對、說有，只是數字你沒有辦法提供，那會後再提供沒有關係，我們到會後再進一步跟部長討教這個數字，因為有進度最重要。","下一個問題是跟內政部也有關係的，跟內政部有什麼關係呢？因為我們為了要發展地熱、為了要發展地熱的發電，經濟部的地礦中心在陽明山國家公園管理處辦理探勘，在這個過程當中，造成了什麼？造成了井噴，所以陽明山那邊的住戶非常非常的關心，針對這件事情，我有問過地礦中心，地礦中心說廠商在執行的過程當中出了一些狀況，顯然就是沒有把這個案子給執行好，所以出現了這樣子的災難。下一個問題是，針對有關於國家公園管理處在國家公園境內，有廠商沒有依照應該有的規格跟標準去執行地質探勘作業，而造成損害的這一件事情，有兩個部分，一個是依照國家公園法，該開罰就開罰，只是開罰的金額很可笑，新臺幣3,000元。這個不是我真的在意的，我真的在意的是它對於國家公園所造成的傷害，這個損害到底要怎麼樣去填補的問題。我現在所得到的資訊，目前針對有關於破壞陽明山國家公園森林，結果內政部國家公園管理處是跟經濟部地礦中心求償，而不是跟廠商求償，這個是怎麼回事？"],["劉部長世芳：因為當時在申請的時候，經濟部是用研究計畫的方式，所以我們認為是經濟部應該負責全責。"],["黃委員國昌：對，你們為什麼不是跟實際的行為人求償呢？"],["劉部長世芳：如果是這樣的話，經濟部可以跟實際的行為人求償。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個問題，目前陽明山國家公園管理處，我先講兩個問題的層次，因為整個事情我看了覺得滿好笑的，我們的陽明山國家公園管理處跟經濟部的地礦中心求償，等於是國家的左手跟國家的右手求償，錢全部都是納稅人的錢，重點是跟廠商求償。我現在最關心的一個問題是，求償的這一百多萬，國家公園管理處是按照什麼樣子的基準計算出來的？因為我所得到的，一方面是居住在陽明山那邊居民的陳情，另外一方面是什麼？另外一方面是有人去施壓，幫這個廠商說項，這個廠商後臺很硬，開了三方的協調會談，這個我事後再追，跟內政部沒有關係，但我關心的事情是什麼？我關心的事情是內政部國家公園管理處針對這個求償的金額是怎麼計算出來的。第二個，這個錢夠嗎？這是我的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，應該是根據當時經濟部的地礦局跟這個廠商，他們之間到底是怎麼樣的一個委託計畫，因為在國家公園……"],["黃委員國昌：那是地礦中心跟廠商求償的問題嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在第一個是，真正該開罰的是國家公園管理處，因為它造成我們國家公園的破壞。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們依據國家公園法……"],["黃委員國昌：按照你剛剛的說明，當初提計畫的人是地礦中心，所以你們跟地礦中心討嘛，地礦中心會不會跟廠商討？接下來下一步要去問地礦中心，這個過程我都了解，現在我的問題是第一動，什麼叫第一動，國家公園管理處跟地礦中心求償這一百多萬的時候，我看到這個數字，我非常的驚訝，我驚訝的理由是，第一個，這個錢夠嗎？第二個，這個錢怎麼計算出來的？"],["劉部長世芳：它在給的那個函裡面講得非常清楚，就是有關於裡面的樹木或者是裡面引起的一些復育上面的問題，它都把它寫得非常的清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你看嘛！每公頃補償，第一年12萬1,000元；第二年6萬2,900元；第三年到第六年，每一年4萬元，但我現在的問題還是一樣啊，你如果在探討這個求償的金額合理不合理，你只是單純把這個數字加起來，沒有意義啊！現在我更深一層的問題是這一些每一年多少錢的數字是怎麼估出來的，真的夠嗎？這是我的問題。","時間到了，沒有關係，部長，可不可以請你承諾請國家公園管理處會後提供一份說明資料給我，清楚說明為什麼是用這個標準來計算？因為釀成這樣的災害，可能我不懂，對於國家公園的維護，原來這樣子一百多萬元就可以解決問題，我自己看了是有一點反常識，我覺得是不夠，但是當初國家公園管理處到底怎麼計算出來的，它的基準是什麼？是不是可以請國家公園管理處會後用書面回復給我，可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：國家公園署吧？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["劉部長世芳：國家公園署比較好，我想是不是請國家公園署跟委員這邊做一下說明，然後包括……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，直接給我書面。"],["劉部長世芳：陽管處為什麼只有求償一百多萬這個部分好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：是，直接給我書面好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：因為這是專案的認定。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我覺得非常奇怪的是，如果今天是這個廠商必須要負責任的話，為什麼最後的金額只有這個樣子，這個錢真的夠嗎？這個是我現在正在關心的事情，需要多久？一個禮拜之內可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想應該可以，因為這件事情是7月底，所以他們在算的過程當中應該有……"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：可以，已經有依據了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來我們請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅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朝偉"},{"start":136.181,"end":161.344,"text":"市長根據我們農業部的報告農業部針對這次驗射虎的事件有列出的時間軸就從7月底開始確認有驗射虎的存在然後接下來就是進行多次的會議還有災害風險評估但是從這一次的經驗我們明顯的發現到計畫絕對趕不上變化尤其是在現在的極端氣候之下我們東部地區又常發生這個地震頻繁然後"},{"start":161.823,"end":189.161,"text":"一次大一次地震或是一場大雨就可能把原本大家規劃好評估好的事情全部都推翻那加上這次菸涉湖涉及到的這個阻亂機關不只是單一個單位我們中央必須要痛定思痛來強化各單位之間的聯繫我們資訊的共享還有通報機制我相信呃市長也非常了解這個過程我找真的問題哦那因此真本席提出兩點的建議第一個就是說"},{"start":190.041,"end":218.017,"text":"強化跨部會的這個驗射壺潛勢監測平台那本席知道我們農業部目前一個叫國有林防災應變及驗射壺監測系統但實際上我們去網路上看我們去網站上看它比較像是會診各單位的這個會議紀錄的一個地方那農業部應該要更整個更多的跨部會的這個即時的資訊包括我們農業部的這個邊波的穩定系統啊然後航車的圖像還有水利署的水利署這個"},{"start":219.141,"end":243.609,"text":"河川監測資訊等等嘛我們可以透過我們這個AI影像來判讀監測我們地形的變化然後提前來辨識我們高風險這個地段讓不管是我們中央也好地方政府也好甚至我們當地的民眾都可以一目了然然後上這個平台能夠有效的即刻掌握到我們資訊那第二個 第二點的建議就是我們社會中央解釋應用社會風險地圖應變的SOP"},{"start":246.857,"end":262.648,"text":"目前我們之內有土石柳還有河川做潛勢風險的這個地圖以及分級警戒應變機制那但針對我們這間社會這樣子複合性的這些災害未來應該有更明確更專屬的風險地圖以及不同的這風險應變機制才對"},{"start":264.537,"end":285.562,"text":"那這當中我們涉及到的這個資訊整合的管道絕對不會是單一個地方政府他有能力做到那我們專門一定要扛起責任這真的要跨部會來一起來合作那針對菸攝乎的這個事件界內風險之後我們在每一次的地震或風災過後我們就要針對高風險地區再做一次的評估再做一次的評估"},{"start":286.328,"end":298.579,"text":"那避免未來的事情將會發生像各位應該很清楚知道0403之後整個東部的狀況他越來越難找我所以他即使去變更這個是很重要的那你能夠了解到"},{"start":301.724,"end":320.794,"text":"或是他是在台東發現 我們該怎麼辦其實台東的鄉親也很擔心我們在這次下鄉的時候 每個都在講說我們在家裡很累 要不要衝一排大家都很擔心會發生一樣的事情因為我相信這件事情對國人都產生特別是東部的民眾產生很大很大的陰影那我想這邊再請市長來回應"},{"start":322.694,"end":340.112,"text":"好非常謝謝召委兩個提醒也是提問啦我想就像您所說的其實在整個氣候變遷加劇的狀況之下所有的災害其實都會是複合性的而且不是單一點的那我們現在要做的其實就是把這些資訊第二要整合起來"},{"start":340.732,"end":367.446,"text":"所以刚刚提到的不管是这个浅市区的监测平台不是只有农业部也包括经济部甚至包括我们的NCDR科技防灾中心还甚至我们科技国科会还有各个专家其实这是一个团队那也许有人手上有这部分资料有人有那部分资料一定要统合起来看才是一个完整的这个风险地图而且这个一定要随时做所以我想我们不管是卫星资料航拍资料"},{"start":368.246,"end":389.888,"text":"無人機資料或是甚至最近我們也找了那個經濟部那個地礦中心他們有長期的監測資料包括礦產整個的變形我想這些資料都統合起來才是我們將來在防災也好有更好的準備那老實講真的不敢講說人定會勝天因為在什麼狀況之下我們真的不知道我們只能希望說"},{"start":391.189,"end":407.583,"text":"我們希望有更好的準備所以剛剛提到的不管是在平台也好在救災的SOP還好應處的準則或甚至在演練我想這個必須在一次又一次的操作中讓大家知道說其實要有準備"},{"start":408.82,"end":431.193,"text":"那其實我們能夠有更好的結果如果我們大家能夠一起把這件事情再做得更完善一點不管手冊也好SOP也好更精準的預先溝通或者是能夠提早做準備寧可及早疏散就是預防性的疏散我們也不願意見到有任何一個人的損失我想這次應該在一次一次當中我們要學習到的"},{"start":431.953,"end":451.948,"text":"市長我們希望能夠接受這件事情之後發現到整個未來應應整個極端氣候我們該怎麼去面對特別是跨國的合作然後跟地方政府合作我們不希望這樣的憾事再次發生那特別也都知道像這是像邊鄉地區他原本就是在資源缺乏然後人口老化的情況之下"},{"start":452.388,"end":471.724,"text":"他們根本沒有能力根本沒有能力應付這麼大的災害那接下來我想要請我們這個請教這個內政部的部長保定這針對這次驗射虎這個災害事件內政部作為災害防救中央主管單位我想他絕對有必要的責任針對災害發生後"},{"start":473.035,"end":488.676,"text":"各個環節進行全面性的檢討我想不管是中央或地方都一樣我們就是好好的釐清問題才能夠解決問題啦齁那趕快本身就提出兩個建議第一個就是說針對目前的這個災害防救法有一些關於撤離的規範過於簡化"},{"start":489.797,"end":507.574,"text":"尤其是針對這個強制撤離居民這一項就缺乏明確的相對應的這個強制手段其實是對於地方政府也特別是偏鄉你要在短時間撤離千人真的是一件非常困難的事情本期從村幹事開始然後到"},{"start":509.195,"end":531.593,"text":"地方的民意代表然後到鄉鎮長我們在側村遇到的情況都是很難去處理的那因此對於相對這個相關策略方式的分工以法律賦予政府機關強制力這個如何以確保生命安全為優先然後給予更明確的這個規範我想在這個法規上我們應該要進行來檢討"},{"start":533.354,"end":551.467,"text":"那第二件事就是在強化驗社會這個防災的宣導還有演練我想這一次的驗社會造成這個大規模的災害可以說是少有這個先例可循那又涉及到剛剛提到跨部會的這個資訊的整合那我想必須要由中央機關來組織輔導我們地方"},{"start":553.969,"end":576.304,"text":"縣市政府甚至直接輔導高風險地區的鄉鎮市公所進行這個縣市政府的防災宣導還有應變的這個機制擬定我們才可以從上到下更具體的這個強化防災韌性還有我們民眾的這防災的意識那以上這兩個建議我確實不一定我們也好好來研議一下但本市再次強調我們希望"},{"start":578.946,"end":597.225,"text":"絕對不是去歸咎哪一個特定的單位或是個人或是要釐清問題才能夠解決問題那避免造成我們這樣子的傷害那以上就是幾個建議也請所剛剛提到的兩個單位能夠好好的研議那以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1179,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（12時54分）謝謝主席。主席，我們有請內政部劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好。部長，這次花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖的潰壩事件，造成19人的死亡，我想這對全體國人都是非常非常沉重的傷痛，在這邊我們也感謝所有第一線救災的人員跟志工。目前我們救災跟重建的進度都還在持續進行當中，但是我們想事發至今已經將近20天，許多國人心中還是充滿了許多的疑問，就是究竟到底是為什麼會造成今天這麼嚴重的災害？到底在各項的環節當中，我們出了什麼樣的問題？因此，本席會安排今天的議程，就是希望各部會能夠一起在我們立法院，清楚地跟我們國人來報告，我想只有釐清問題才能夠找到改善的方法，我們都是希望作為未來政府防災的一些寶貴經驗，能夠強化我們全災害應變的能力，我想這個才是符合賴總統所說的韌性社會。","我想針對這一次堰塞湖潰壩事件，本席認為我們必須從源頭堰塞湖的監測處理開始來討論，再來就是我們災害預警的通報、疏散的機制，最後是災後復原重建。這就是為什麼本席將這次的專報主題分為這幾項，就是不希望我們只顧著去究責某一個特定的環節，甚至是某一個單位、某一個機關，然後最後變成一場卸責的大會，面對災害，防災絕對勝於救災，我想能夠提早發現潛在的災害風險，做好妥善防災的規劃，盡力把災害降到最低，我相信這比事後救災補償，擔什麼責任更加重要。接下來，我想要請農業部次長。"],["杜次長文珍：是，召委。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，根據農業部的報告，農業部針對這次堰塞湖的事件有列出時間軸，從7月底開始確認有堰塞湖的存在，接下來就是進行多次的會議，還有災害風險評估。但是從這一次的經過，我們明顯發現到計畫絕對趕不上變化，尤其是在現在的極端氣候之下，東部地區又頻繁發生地震，然後一次地震或是一場大雨，就可能把原本大家規劃好、評估好的事情全部都推翻，加上這次堰塞湖涉及到的主管機關，不只是單一個單位，我們中央必須要痛定思痛，來強化各單位之間的聯繫，我們資訊的共享還有通報機制，我相信次長也非常了解這個過程產生的問題。","因此本席提出兩點的建議，第一點，強化跨部會的這個堰塞湖潛勢監測平臺，本席知道農業部目前有一個國有林防災應變及堰塞湖監測系統，但實際上我們去網站上看，它比較像是彙整各單位會議紀錄的地方，農業部應該要整合更多跨部會的即時資訊，包括農業部的邊坡穩定系統、航測的圖像，還有水利署的河川監測資訊等等，可以透過AI影像來判讀監測地形的變化，然後提前來辨識高風險地段，讓不管是中央也好、地方政府也好，甚至當地的民眾都可以一目了然，透過這個平臺就能夠有效地即刻掌握到資訊。","第二點建議，我們設立中央檢測堰塞湖風險地圖應變的SOP，目前我們針對有土石流、河川做潛勢風險的地圖，以及分級警戒應變機制，但針對這些堰塞湖這樣子複合性的災害，未來應該有更明確、更專屬的風險地圖，以及不同的風險應變機制才對。這當中我們涉及到的資訊整合的管道，絕對不會是單一個地方政府有能力做到，我們中央一定要扛起責任，這真的要跨部會一起來合作。針對堰塞湖的這個事件監測風險之後，我們在每一次的地震或風災過後，就要針對高風險地區再做一次的評估，避免未來這樣的事情再發生。","各位也應該很清楚知道，0403之後整個東部的狀況愈來愈難掌握，所以即時去變更是很重要的，讓你能夠了解到下一次颱風大、雨水大，或者它是在臺東發生，我們該怎麼辦。其實臺東鄉親也很擔心，我們在這次下鄉的時候，每個都在講說我們溪水很高會不會衝進來，大家都很擔心會發生一樣的事情，因為我相信這件事情對國人，特別是東部的民眾產生很大很大的陰影，我想這邊再請次長來回應。"],["杜次長文珍：非常謝謝召委的提醒，同時也是提問。就像您所說的，其實在整個氣候變遷加劇的狀況之下，所有的災害都會是複合性的，而且不是單一點的。我們現在要做的第一就是要把這些資訊整合起來，所以剛剛提到的潛勢區監測平臺不是只有農業部，也包括經濟部，甚至包括NCDR（災防科技中心）和國科會，還有各個專家，其實這是一個團隊。也許有人手上有這部分資料，有人手上有那部分資料，一定要統合起來看，才是一個完整的風險地圖，而且這個一定要隨時做。不管是衛星資料、航拍資料或無人機資料，甚至最近我們也找了經濟部地礦中心，他們有長期的監測資料，包括對整個礦場的辨識，這些資料都要統合起來，將來在防災方面才能有更好的準備。","老實講，真的不敢說人定會勝天，因為我們真的不知道會發生什麼狀況，只能希望有更好的準備。所以剛剛提到的，不管是在平臺也好、救災的SOP也好、應處的準則，甚至是演練，都必須在一次又一次的操作中讓大家知道其實要有準備。如果我們大家能夠把這件事情做得更完善一點，就會有更好的結果，不管是手冊也好、SOP也好，都更精準地預先溝通或是提早做準備，寧可提早做預防性的疏散，我們也不願意見到任何一個人的損失，這應該是我們在一次一次的操作當中要學習到的。"],["黃委員建賓：是的，次長，我們希望能夠在經歷這次的事情之後，發現未來因應整個極端氣候該怎麼去面對，特別是跨部會的合作和跟地方政府的合作，我們不希望這樣的憾事再次發生。特別是這次像偏鄉地區原本就是處在資源缺乏、人口老化的情況之下，他們根本沒有能力應付這麼大的災害。","接下來我想請教內政部劉部長。針對這次堰塞湖災害的事件，內政部做為災害防救的中央主管單位，絕對有必要針對災害發生後的各個環節進行全面性檢討，不管是中央或地方都一樣，就是好好地釐清問題才能夠解決問題。","本席要提出兩個建議，第一是目前的災害防救法有一些關於撤離的規範過於簡化，尤其是針對強制撤離居民這一項，就缺乏明確的相對應的強制手段。其實對於地方政府而言，特別是偏鄉，要在短時間內撤離千人，真的是一件非常困難的事情，本席從擔任村幹事開始，到地方民意代表，然後到鄉鎮長，我們在撤村方面遇到的情況都是很難處理的。因此，對於相關撤離方式的分工、以法律賦予政府機關強制力，如何以確保生命安全為優先，給予更明確的規範？我認為在把關上應該要進行檢討。","第二是強化堰塞湖防災宣導和演練。這次堰塞湖造成大規模的災害，可以說少有先例可循，因為涉及剛剛提到的跨部會資訊整合，我想必須要由中央機關來主責，輔導地方縣市政府，甚至直接輔導高風險地區的鄉鎮市公所，進行堰塞湖的防災宣導還有應變機制的擬訂，我們才可以從上到下，更具體地強化防災韌性和民眾的防災意識。","以上這兩個建議，請部長好好研議一下。本席再次強調，我們希望的絕對不是去歸咎於哪一個特定的單位或個人，而是要釐清問題，才能夠解決問題，避免再次造成這樣的傷害。以上幾個建議也請剛剛提到的兩個單位能夠好好地研議，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員建賓）：接下來請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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不好意思委員我來說明一下這個在 因為我看到你們齁就是整個7月26行程到 這個大概在8月十幾號就已經開始在評估我說明一下 對對對好 等一下 因為我時間有限齁你講到什麼我剛剛次長說的還有您說的到8月十幾號 因為我看到你們寫的時間序列齁7月26到8月3號你們就整個堰塞湖的量體分析災害風險"},{"start":193.522,"end":210.54,"text":"评估初步的评估还有建立预警机制可是我看到8月11号的时候特别提出了一个紧急调查报告为什么那个为什么是有一个紧急调查报告那一天这个调查报告到底他紧急什么他告诉了什么"},{"start":210.851,"end":232.118,"text":"然後剛剛您又講國防部這邊這個可能要爆破可能評估也是不好這也是8月10幾號那時候到底我們現在想了解就是說我們政府的評估或者是我們該做的到底有沒有實際的做8月11號那時候就是一個比較完整的全貌的評估"},{"start":232.847,"end":255.727,"text":"那就是轮廓那那个的结论是什么那个的结论对艳色湖它的应该如何处置它就是针对那整个量体还有针对未来可能会形成的水量还有那个霸体的土方它有一个所以结论呢结论是什么因为我看过去我们从1999年开始全台湾各地艳色湖的形成"},{"start":256.428,"end":285.692,"text":"我们发现他都在10天到两周之内一定会有一个评估而且他这个会做出处置就是后续我们该怎么做是要引流还是要建立什么还是在下游我们的这个提防各方面那我们这一次花莲的艳色湖既然7月26号形成那在8到了8月10号差不多你们也两周了你们那一"},{"start":286.132,"end":299.899,"text":"那时候的决议到底如何处置这个艳色那个处置方式其实是一直都有持续在评估但是那边最大的问题你一直评估评估你总要有一个时间点你要做出一个"},{"start":301.553,"end":322.465,"text":"決定說你要怎麼處置包括剛剛次長說的我要不要用爆破還是什麼就是不行那個地方沒有辦法用爆破那你們那一次的決議那這個驗射壺怎麼樣持續觀察而已嗎沒有危險性嗎這個評估這個我們一次說沒有其他的工程方式我們還會有第二次看還可不可以找其他專家來評估有沒有其他的工程方式"},{"start":322.825,"end":341.216,"text":"所以一開始是爆破後來又有人提出說引流那或是說有人說這個可不可以有這個機具上去把那個堤方挖一個缺口其實這些不同的方式它不是在一次會議裡面那你剛剛說的第二個爆破沒做第二個引流不是沒做是沒辦法做因為它會引發更大的崩塌讓這個業社活更大那你剛剛說的引流可以做嗎"},{"start":346.314,"end":372.592,"text":"引流可以做 引流也許可以做但是他必須要裝4條1米的這個不鏽鋼管而且每一條要在2.5公里以上要裝4條那那個驗射壺他是在一個深山的山谷他沒有辦法在那麼短的時間內去安裝這個事情而且現場持續在崩塌沒有工作人員能夠保障他們的生命安全在那樣的環境下 現場持續崩塌"},{"start":373.252,"end":400.223,"text":"这一条路也不能走那你们接着没有路啊对对对我是说是是是这个方案不能进行那你们没有第三个方案吗有啊第三个方案第三个方案是什么就是那是不是可以上去把它的这个所谓的坝去把它稍微挖一个缺口出来或者说挖低一点但是这个方式同样也是因为你要开一条路上去至少要三个月以上而且那个时间是在迅起也没办法做这个事情"},{"start":401.127,"end":420.619,"text":"所以那個地方最主要所以你提你講了三個想出來都是不可行的那最後到底OKOK評估出來的那最後呢最後就是所以就是在中下游要加強輸菌中下游加強輸菌你們什麼時候開始做你們什麼時候有開始做"},{"start":420.959,"end":448.955,"text":"应该是八月中那时候就邀集了包含水利署包含了花莲县政府还有我们自己那时候就已经开始去做了那时候也希望说至少希望能够在未来即使在没有台风的情况下它在自然溢流之前可以让中下游河道增加水的容量哪一天决定要疏浚而且疏浚的期程是那一天的决议疏浚的期程是怎么样应该是八月十六号的会议"},{"start":449.707,"end":462.357,"text":"好8月16號決定要輸菌然後預計多久要輸菌完成在9月底前要完成60萬噸的輸菌有三個9月底前對對對然後也包含河岸"},{"start":462.984,"end":491.943,"text":"有一些之前堤防的缺口什麼那些要把它補強堤防缺口是水利署嗎還是是你們應該是水利署因為發生了之後當地的民眾講說破堤點只差100公尺那舊堤防跟新堤防它的一個缺口一直沒有補對這塊可能要請副署長我再重申那個不是叫缺口那個是開口堤"},{"start":494.065,"end":521.323,"text":"這個這個堤防這個設計方式是全世界都有案例日本叫做霞堤也就是他的保護標準都到設計保護標準那這一次自災不是只有那邊有溢出去而且是整個在這個他應該是上面整個潰堤吧對因為大流量下就像我們的設計標準才2000出頭的一個洪峰流量他下來是88004倍的洪峰流量一個輕量級要跟重量級去打"},{"start":522.325,"end":546.216,"text":"所以沿路有2800公尺的堤防都破了所以峽堤當然這個部分開口堤是溢出去沒錯但是它的整個整個防線的潰瓣並不是那個OK好那我了解那我還是請次長還有剛剛這一位是不是我們林業林業自然署的是嗎是林署長那所以呢所以這個艷澀湖我們就眼睜睜看著它"},{"start":548.24,"end":569.863,"text":"不是眼睜睜我們就是剛剛講所有的你們所有的會議決策會議記錄是不是在會後可以提供給沒有問題那這樣看來等於提早大概一個多月不到兩個月驗射服行程到發生災害我們沒有辦法有效的"},{"start":570.78,"end":596.609,"text":"防止这个灾害的发生所以就是着重在中下游的减灾方案如同我刚刚跟您报告的那另外还有一个就是说必要的时候必须要疏散那如果本席问一个假设性问题因为你们说在9月底以前要整个完成下游的整个的就是60万吨的清水那如果这次风灾它是10月才来是不是不会造成这个我想请教"},{"start":597.377,"end":620.784,"text":"災害可能會減輕一點但是因為這次的災害如同剛剛水利署的副署長也說明了那個堤防它沒有辦法承受這麼大量所以確實是所以最重要還是上面整個潰堤下來才造成這麼大的災害對 那個當然是源頭那我們以現代科技整個工程各方面真的都沒辦法嗎"},{"start":622.47,"end":638.115,"text":"在很短的时间内只有不到两个月的时间内刚刚所讲的工程手段是没有办法没有没有我们那时候并不知道九月二十几号会有风灾我的意思说你们那时候在面对这个艳色湖的时候我们到底有没有办法"},{"start":639.213,"end":666.307,"text":"能够有正确的处置以及是不是真正及时的处置这是我们所有的疑虑在两个月内确实没有办法用工程的手段没有两个月内而是形成之后你不知道九月底会有风灾嘛我们那时候预估十月会一流啦那时候已经有估计十月会一流对对对有估计在十月中前后这个我们都有公开资讯我们设了一个网站每天都对外公开"},{"start":666.926,"end":689.571,"text":"因為我有看你們後來整個有監測他的整個水位各方面8月中就開始把這些資訊完全上網公開任何人都可以查得到OK 謝謝本席不好意思最後再借用我請部長內政部長我們很快的要詢問一下就是這整個如果真的災害來的時候細胞廣播觸發門檻與時點"},{"start":692.312,"end":719.701,"text":"這個這個細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細"},{"start":723.203,"end":751.137,"text":"就是我刚刚问的这整个细胞广播系统是不是有纳入你们的这个整个那个方案的强制条件有因为其实我们不只纳入而且我们还做了演练确保在那有多语吗包含原住民原住民语整个防灾教材是文字细胞广播是用文字对那有关那广播的部分防灾教材"},{"start":751.956,"end":773.231,"text":"整个防灾教材什么时候可以全覆盖还有能够年年更新细胞广播的部分其实相对含概率是全覆盖吗但是在当地的广播的部分其实特别是在原乡的一些村镇其实村长里长他们都会使用当地的语言去做宣导"},{"start":774.111,"end":796.236,"text":"做说明最后就是刚刚我们说的这个艳色湖警戒监测及撤离和演练方案他从101年修订后就没有再更新但是我们现在一直这种极端气候我们发现我们也掌控不了天象各方面所以感觉是脱节了所以这一个部分是不是"},{"start":797.196,"end":819.282,"text":"什么时候行政院可以提出这是农业部还是内政部能够提出新的方案这个部分我们会再来做检讨因为特别包括这次在花莲地区有很多包括各机关还有花莲县府还有很多志工在里面的这个状况其实我想将来在整个不管是疏散演练的这些应该都要纳进来"},{"start":820.082,"end":835.453,"text":"包含在101年的时候可能也没有所谓的AI还有无人机等卫星等等新兴的技术它的长设条件和资料可能要共享所以这一块我们希望来加强有备无患谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1069,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時40分）謝謝主席。內政部長請先坐著休息，本席請農業部次長，還有經濟部水利署副署長。"],["主席：請農業部、經濟部水利署。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一次堰塞湖的災害，我想國人都覺得非常痛心，醫療上有所謂的預防勝於治療，我相信所有的災害也是，我想次長跟署長應該也都認同嘛，因為很多人在說，所以我要特別的針對農業部跟經濟部來做請教，過往堰塞湖的處置案例，通常堰塞湖形成一個多月就處置完畢了，花蓮的堰塞湖是7月形成，發生災害的時候已經是9月23號潰堤，沒有看到任何的疏濬工程，或者這中間到底是判斷錯誤，還是怎麼樣的一個？我想這個部分我們非常需要知道，是政府的螺絲鬆了，該做沒有做，所以一直延宕，延宕到9月剛好來一個颱風，結果產生這個問題，還是怎麼樣？首先，我先請農業部次長回應。"],["杜次長文珍：非常謝謝委員的關心，其實在9月26號我們確認那個堰塞湖形成之後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：7月吧？"],["杜次長文珍：7月26號確認形成之後，相關的監測、相關的應處，其實都緊鑼密鼓在做，就是因為覺得這件事情要嚴陣以待。兩個狀況，第一個，因為那個湖體確實很大，所以其實這當中也有人在講說，看有沒有辦法就把那個堰塞湖給消滅掉，其實我們也請了包括國防部，包括很多水利工程單位的人幫我們想想看，有沒有辦法把那個壩體解體或讓水流掉，這樣至少對下游來講不會有那麼大的風險，這當中……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個是什麼時候的？"],["杜次長文珍：我們從7月26號形成之後，就開始密集找專家，在8月……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我有看到你們報告裡面的時間序列。"],["杜次長文珍：也有考慮過要不要請國防部來爆破，其實這也不可行，因為旁邊……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這個考量，然後決定不要用這個方法是在什麼時候？這是什麼時間點？"],["杜次長文珍：應該在8月……"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經到8月了嗎？"],["林署長華慶：不好意思，委員，我來說明一下。這個在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我看到你們整個從7月26號形成到……"],["林署長華慶：大概在8月十幾號就已經開始在評估，我說明一下……"],["徐委員欣瑩：等一下，因為我時間有限，剛剛次長說的，還有您說的到8月十號，因為我看到你們寫的時間序列，7月26號到8月3號，你們就整個堰塞湖的量體分析、災害風險的初步評估，還有建立預警機制，可是我看到8月11號的時候，特別提出了一個緊急調查報告，為什麼？為什麼會有一個緊急調查報告？那一天這個調查報告到底它緊急什麼？它告訴了什麼？然後剛剛您又講，國防部如果要爆破，可能評估後也是不好，這也是8月10號，那時候到底……我們現在想了解，就是我們政府的評估，或者是我們該做的，到底有沒有實際的做？"],["林署長華慶：8月11號那時候就是一個比較完整的、全貌的評估，就是輪廓。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那個時候的結論是什麼？那個結論對堰塞湖應該如何處置？"],["林署長華慶：它就是針對那整個量體，還有針對未來可能會形成的水量，以及那個壩體的土方，它有一個更清楚的報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以結論是什麼？因為我看過去，我們從1999年開始，全臺灣各地堰塞湖的形成，我們發現大多在10天到兩週之內，一定會有一個評估，而且會做出處置，就是後續我們該怎麼做，是要引流，還是要建立什麼？還是在下游，我們的堤防、各方面要做什麼？這一次花蓮的堰塞湖既然在7月26號就已經形成，到了8月10號差不多也兩週了，你們那時候的決議到底如何處置這個堰塞湖？"],["林署長華慶：那個處置方式其實一直有持續在做評估，但是那邊最大的問題……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還是在做評估，但一直評估、評估，你總要有一個時間點，你要做出一個決定說你要怎麼處置，包括剛剛次長說的，我要不要用爆破還是什麼。"],["林署長華慶：就是不行，那個地方沒有辦法用爆破。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，不行，那你們那一次的決議，這個堰塞湖怎麼樣？持續觀察而已嗎？沒有危險性嗎？"],["林署長華慶：關於這個評估，我們第一次說沒有其他的工程方式，我們還會有第二次，看可不可以找其他專家來評估有沒有其他的工程方法，所以一開始是爆破，後來又有人提出引流，或是有人說可不可以有機具上去把那個堤方挖一個缺口，其實這些不同的方式，它不是在一次會議裡面評估的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那您剛剛說的第一個爆破沒做，第二個引流……"],["林署長華慶：不是沒做，是沒辦法做，因為……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，沒辦法做。"],["林署長華慶：它會引發更大的崩塌，讓這個堰塞湖會更大。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK！沒辦法做，那你剛剛說的引流可以做嗎？"],["林署長華慶：引流可以做，但……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們那時候的評估結果。"],["林署長華慶：引流也許可以做，但是它必須要裝四條1米的不鏽鋼管，而且每一條要在2.5公里以上，要裝四條，但那個堰塞湖是在一個深山的山谷，沒有辦法在那麼短的時間內去安裝這些東西，而且現場持續在崩塌，沒有工作人員能夠保障他們的生命安全，在那樣的環境下面去工作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為現場持續崩塌，所以這一條路也不能走，那你們接著……"],["林署長華慶：那裡沒有路啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是說這一個方案不能進行，那你們沒有第三個方案嗎？"],["林署長華慶：有啊，第三個方案比如說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：第三個方案是什麼？"],["林署長華慶：就是可不可以上去把它所謂的壩稍微挖一個缺口出來，或是挖低一點，但是這個方式同樣也是因為必須要開一條路上去，至少要三個月以上，而且那個時間是在汛期，也沒辦法做這個事情，所以那個地方最主要的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你講了三個想出來都是不可行的。"],["林署長華慶：不是想出來，那個都是幾個可行的方向。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，是評估出來的，那最後呢？最後就是……"],["林署長華慶：所以就是在中下游要加強疏濬，包括……"],["徐委員欣瑩：中下游加強疏濬，你們什麼時候有開始做？"],["林署長華慶：應該是8月中，那時候就邀集了包含水利署、花蓮縣政府，還有我們自己，那時候就已經開始去做了。那時候也希望未來即使在沒有颱風的情況下，在它自然溢流之前，可以讓中下游的河道增加水的容量。"],["徐委員欣瑩：哪一天決定要疏濬？而且那一天的決議，疏濬的期程是怎麼樣？"],["林署長華慶：應該是8月16號的會議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，8月16號決定要疏濬，然後預計多久要疏濬完成？"],["林署長華慶：在9月底前要完成60萬噸的疏濬，由三個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：9月底前？"],["林署長華慶：對！也包含河岸有一些之前堤防的缺口什麼，那些要把它補強，然後河堤加方……"],["徐委員欣瑩：堤防缺口是水利署的權責，還是你們？"],["林署長華慶：對，所以水利署都有參與。"],["徐委員欣瑩：應該是水利署。"],["林署長華慶：對！這是一個很多部會共同參與的會議。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為發生了之後，當地的民眾講說破堤點只差100公尺，舊堤防跟新堤防之間的缺口一直沒有補，這一塊可能要請副署長回答。"],["黃副署長宏莆：我再重申，那個不叫缺口，那個是開口堤，這個堤防的設計方式是全世界都有案例，日本叫它霞堤，也就是它的保護標準都到設計保護標準，這一次致災不是只有那邊有溢出去，而是整個在兩千多公尺……"],["徐委員欣瑩：它應該是上面整個潰堤吧？"],["黃副署長宏莆：對，因為大流量下去，就像我們的設計標準才2,000出頭的洪峰流量，它下來是8,800，4倍的洪峰流量，一個輕量級要跟重量級打，所以沿路有2,800公尺的堤防都破了，霞堤這個部分的開口堤是溢出去沒錯，但是它是整個防線的潰壩，不是那個。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我了解。我還是請次長，還有剛剛林業及自然保育署的林署長，所以堰塞湖我們就眼睜睜看著它？"],["林署長華慶：不是眼睜睜，我們就是剛剛講所有的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們所有的會議、決策、會議紀錄，是不是在會後可以提供給本辦公室？"],["林署長華慶：沒有問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣看來等於提早大概一個多月，不到兩個月，堰塞湖形成到發生災害，我們沒有辦法有效地防止這個災害發生？"],["林署長華慶：所以就是著重在中下游的減災方案，如同我剛剛跟您報告的。另外還有一個就是必要的時候必須要疏散撤離。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席問一個假設性問題，因為你們說在9月底以前要整個完成下游的疏濬？"],["林署長華慶：就是60萬噸的清除。"],["徐委員欣瑩：60萬噸。"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果這一次風災是10月才來，是不是不會造成這個事情？我想請教。"],["林署長華慶：災害可能會減輕一點，但是因為這次的災害，如同剛剛水利署副署長也說明了，那個堤防沒有辦法承受這麼大的量，所以確實……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以最重要還是上面整個潰堤產下來，才造成這麼大的災害。"],["林署長華慶：對，那個當然是源頭。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們以現代科技、整個工程各方面，真的都沒辦法嗎？"],["林署長華慶：在很短的時間內，只有不到兩個月的時間內，剛剛所講的工程手段是沒有辦法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我們那時候並不知道9月二十幾日會有風災。"],["林署長華慶：不是，我們原本的預估就是10月……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的意思是在面對這個堰塞湖的時候，我們到底有沒有辦法能夠有正確的處置，以及是不是真正即時的處置？這是我們所有的疑慮。"],["林署長華慶：在兩個月內確實沒有辦法用工程的手段。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有兩個月內，而是形成之後，你不知道9月底會有風災嘛，所以你的處置方式？"],["林署長華慶：我們那時候預估10月會溢流。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那時候已經有估計10月會溢流？"],["林署長華慶：對，有估計在10月中前後，這個我們都有公開資訊，我們設了一個網站，每天都對外公開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我看你們後來有監測它的水位各方面。"],["林署長華慶：我們一直都在監測，然後到8月中就開始把這些資訊完全上網公開，任何人都可以查得到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。不好意思，本席最後再借用一些時間，我請內政部部長。很快地詢問一下，如果真的災害來的時候，關於細胞廣播觸發門檻與時點，細胞廣播系統是不是有納入這一次整個所謂的堰塞湖警戒、監測及撤離與演練方案六的強制條件？還有包含……"],["劉部長世芳：細胞簡訊是由農業部負責，我們當然不把它列進去。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以不是內政部？"],["劉部長世芳：因為他們有一定的條件，降雨量或者是說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那不好意思，請農業部。"],["杜次長文珍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是我剛剛問的這整個細胞廣播系統，是不是有納入方案的強制條件？"],["杜次長文珍：有，因為其實我們不只納入，而且我們還做了演練，確保在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有多語嗎？包含原住民語，整個防災教材……"],["杜次長文珍：是文字，細胞廣播是用文字。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，有關廣播的部分，整個防災教材什麼時候可以全覆蓋，還有能夠年年更新？"],["杜次長文珍：細胞廣播的部分，其實相對涵蓋率是精確的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：全覆蓋嗎？"],["杜次長文珍：但是在當地廣播的部分，其實特別是在原鄉的一些村鎮，其實村長、里長他們都會使用當地的語言去做宣導跟說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後就是剛剛我們說的堰塞湖警戒、監測及撤離與演練方案，從101年修訂後就沒有再更新，但是現在一直這種極端氣候，我們發現也掌控不了天象各方面，所以感覺是脫節了，這個部分是不是行政院什麼時候可以提出？這是農業部還是內政部能夠提出新的方案？"],["杜次長文珍：這個部分我們會再來做檢討，因為這次在花蓮地區有很多包括各機關、花蓮縣府，還有很多志工在裡面的狀況，其實我想將來在整個不管是疏散演練等等，應該都要納進來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：包含在101年的時候，可能也沒有所謂的AI，還有無人機、衛星等等新興的技術，它的常設條件和資料可能要共享。"],["杜次長文珍：我想應該都要全部納進來，要及早來做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一塊我們希望來加強，有備無患。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員提醒，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員欣瑩代）：接下來請黃建賓召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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劉部長你的看法呢"},{"start":283.564,"end":306.585,"text":"報告委員其實我們這兩天已經有跟金管會還有財政部已經針對這個志工啊做這個QR Code掃QR Code的時候就有這個平安險的一個保障已經把它列進去這兩天都列進去了其實更令人不捨的是熱心的救災民眾失去了生命挖土機超人林鴻升救災感染"},{"start":307.726,"end":334.762,"text":"他應該是敗血症來身亡那本席是希望內政部積極來研究啟動入中獵池的這個程序以告慰家屬報告委員因為林鴻升先生我們當然非常不捨但是中獵池有中獵池現在的一個入室的部分那我們請衛福部那能不能列入表揚那因為志工服務法是衛福部是不是請次長跟您回應一下"},{"start":337.681,"end":356.678,"text":"有關這部分我會再跟行政院這邊來申請看看我認為這個應該全國的人民都不會反對這麼熱心的一個志工發生這種狀況政府沒有拿出同理心你說叫這些來做志工的人親和一看"},{"start":358.44,"end":370.115,"text":"我認為該做則做你不要說這個一定要怎麼樣規定沒有那個百分之百的規定啦對不對我們這是民意啊你去問10個有9個9都贊成"},{"start":372.23,"end":400.969,"text":"好不好要好好做那個花蓮馬太安溪顏色湖潰壩造成嚴重的災情內政部前部長李鴻元指出台灣當前面臨的都是複合式的災害那已經非單一部會能夠處理呼籲政府要修改災害防救法來設置專責的單位來成立這個防災總署因為這次我看到"},{"start":402.49,"end":430.876,"text":"等於是好幾個單位而且沒有統籌講實在話啦你像那個公兵他們有那麼多的機具那麼多的這個人員沒有發揮到充分來運用他們災害發生的時候能夠做的應該全力都做那是我要成立這個防災總署統一救災的權責此一概念過去在立法院其實也"},{"start":431.806,"end":446.831,"text":"也有討論過啦那花蓮光復鄉災情預警應變及這個救災未來的檢討救責本席請問劉部長你以消防署的看法是不是支持這個防災總署"},{"start":451.608,"end":465.919,"text":"來取代整個中央這個災害應變中心我認為要審慎評估報告委員我剛在回覆其他委員是有提到第一個我們現在消防的這個災害防救體系它是一個因災因而起的那這樣子的"},{"start":466.719,"end":472.763,"text":"前面的有些預警必須要很多專業來幫忙譬如說氣象署他在發布地震或是發布颱風的部分那沒辦法由災防總署來幫忙還有譬如說艷澀湖的監測農業部在幫忙或者是說其他的大型災害或者是生物園的災害必須要衛福部來處理那如果你成立災防總署的部分的話呢他是在"},{"start":490.114,"end":514.973,"text":"應變的時候能不能快速整合所有這方面的資訊然後做出判斷然後減少生命財產的損失那這一部分呢其實在歷次的災害應變從以前的這個921開始他就一直在演變當中那我們也一直在精進那這一部分呢包括中央跟地方都有精進討論的空間我想我們都不排除任何可能因為你不要像這一次一樣"},{"start":516.814,"end":543.986,"text":"這多頭馬車其實外界都有這樣的看法對不對那些志工到底要去給哪一個單位來報到他們要做哪裡對不對你等於是沒有一個統籌嘛那你災害發生的時候就是第一時間最重要因為像台灣地小人籌容易受到一些極端氣候的影響那這個山坡地的災害類型"},{"start":546.359,"end":560.371,"text":"這個將轉變為多元而且災害的規模將遠超過過去歷史的事件面對未來未知的災害可能本席是希望農業部要結合AI大數據的計算以大數據的分析"},{"start":561.472,"end":576.089,"text":"來建立整個災害潛勢圖以疏散避難場所規劃之研究未來會如何與內政部國土署經濟部地礦中心合作以避免類似花蓮關乎這種慘劇再次發生那個次長你有什麼看法"},{"start":581.078,"end":606.624,"text":"是謝謝委員指教應該就是要這樣把所有的資源統合起來一起來就防災救災的事剛剛其實部長講的我意思就是說你要是這個防災總署就是要統籌嘛你災難發生的時候你沒有統籌各司其職每一個單位想法看法都不一樣然後變成多頭馬車所以說變成這種狀況全國人民都看在眼裡啊對不對"},{"start":608.144,"end":621.736,"text":"那其實這個應該本來政府我是希望說那個部長你提出這些看法意見你給立法院一份資料每個委員都都一份資料認為未來應該要怎麼做游部長"},{"start":623.091,"end":649.071,"text":"報告委員我想我不是天才啦但是我會把各方的意見把它收整起來那提供給那個我們的立委來參考那包括如果有修法精進的方案的話我們也必須要研議因為它確實牽涉到不只是各部會恐怕公立公私立協商因為很多人都提到這次的志工的加入以前志工的部分大致上都沒有像這次這麼多人的狀況之下比較不容易處理"},{"start":652.173,"end":674.545,"text":"然後再來就是中央跟地方上面的分工是不是需要再明確那我覺得比較重要就是說我們還是要在各種不同的場合裡面繼續提供給大家危機意識是非常重要你如果沒有準備的話他的危機沒有危機意識的話那當然造成了人命傷亡損失就是比較不是我們能夠預估的範圍之內我希望好好的檢討啦"},{"start":675.825,"end":694.414,"text":"針對未來不要讓災害像這一次變成多頭馬車那其實這些志工真的他們很有愛心那站在政府的角度你應該就是好好的怎麼來檢討以後該怎麼做以最好的方式來做是人民期待的啦謝謝好謝謝林德福委員那我們現在來出"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1009,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（12時25分）謝謝主席。請內政部劉部長、消防署蕭署長，還有農業部杜次長。"],["主席：劉部長、蕭署長、杜次長，請以上三位。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長，請問根據10月9號行政院災害防救辦公室災害復原的情形報告，花蓮光復家屋內清淤差不多100%，主要道路清淤98%，學校已經陸陸續續都復課。根據過往的氣象資料，2022、2023以及2024年花蓮10月累計降雨分別為878毫米、296.5毫米以及572.5毫米，是多雨的季節，馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩危機仍然未解除，請問在場三位誰可以回答，如果再遇到大雨，花蓮光復鄉累積的雨量達到多少毫米就會啟動撤離的機制？"],["杜次長文珍：報告委員，依現在的狀況，我們調整了如果在24小時之內，連續雨量達到200毫米會啟動紅色警戒，或是有地震……"],["林委員德福：是否有預留一些足夠撤離作業的時間，以利民眾能夠疏散？"],["杜次長文珍：這也就是為什麼我們現在最優先要處理的，因為紅色警戒有四個要件，第一個是壩體的部分有沒有穩定；第二個是在河道的清淤部分有沒有做深溝；第三個是河堤有沒有加高，這三項都有在做。最重要的就是現在的撤離計畫，因為現在在花蓮當地，其實除了當地的居民之外，有很多志工、有很多中央各部會進駐在那邊協助的人員，所以撤離計畫是我們現階段要儘速來完成的。"],["林委員德福：其實這一次整個潰壩、潰堤這麼嚴重，主要是當初……你們當然說事前有去做一些測試，去了解，實際上引流工作都沒有做，而且這件事在不久前，我們立法院很多委員就在擔心這個事，但那時候你們就是在搞大惡罷，所以根本就沒有心在這個地方，你要是當初有引流，我相信不會這麼嚴重。雖然說它巨大，但如果有引流，整個水位沒有達到那個程度，它就不會造成整個堰塞湖的潰壩，這是很嚴重的問題耶！"],["杜次長文珍：是。委員大概也提到了，其實這次並不是因為……第一個，監測的結果當然有很多預估模型……"],["林委員德福：你們部長說沒有問題，對不對？"],["杜次長文珍：在當下的狀況。這次其實是因為樺加沙颱風帶來大量雨量，造成堰塞湖區……依照中央氣象署的資料來看，會有大量的雨水，所以這次下來的就不是一般預估的雨量，而是有大量的水、泥沙都帶下來……"],["林委員德福：對，平常要是有引流出去，就不會這麼嚴重！"],["杜次長文珍：引流還是有在做，堤防也有在做，但這次因為颱風大量雨水帶下來的狀況，確實是天上帶下來的狀況。"],["林委員德福：災後政府資源有限，但民間民力無窮，許多民間力量的匯聚支持災民渡過難關。對於投入花蓮救災的官兵，包括醫護、志工，本席真的非常感謝跟敬佩！然而中央災害應變中心對於花蓮整個災區的管理、志工的安排、調度、保險，在災難發生後並沒有立刻啟動，導致謠言四起，破壞整個救災團隊，讓人感到遺憾。我希望內政部未來要一併檢討，讓這些救災志工有安全的保障。劉部長，你的看法呢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，其實我們這兩天已經跟金管會、還有財政部合作，讓志工掃QR Code就可以保平安險的保障，這已經把它列進去，這兩天都列進去了。"],["林委員德福：更令人不捨的是，熱心的救災民眾失去了生命──挖土機超人林鴻森救災感染敗血症身亡！本席希望內政部能積極研究並啟動入祀忠烈祠的程序，以告慰家屬，你的看法呢？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，對林鴻森先生一事我們當然非常不捨，但忠烈祠有忠烈祠入祀的規定，所以我們請衛福部看看能不能列入表揚？因為志工服務法是衛福部主管，是不是請次長跟您回應一下？"],["林委員德福：來，可以。"],["莊次長人祥：有關這部分我會再跟行政院申請看看。"],["林委員德福：我認為全國人民應該都不會反對！這麼熱心的一個志工發生這種狀況，政府若沒有拿出同理心，那麼叫這些做志工的人情何以堪？我認為該做則做，不能說有怎麼樣規定！沒有百分之百的規定，對不對？這是民意，你去問，十個有九個都贊成，好不好？要好好做。","花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩造成嚴重的災情，內政部前部長李鴻源指出，臺灣當前所面臨的都是複合式的災害，已非單一部會能夠處理！呼籲政府要修改災害防救法，設置專責單位、成立防災總署。像這一次涉及好幾個單位，而且沒有統籌，講實在話，像工兵有那麼多機具、那麼多人員，卻沒有發揮作用充分運用。災害發生的時候能夠做的應該都要全力做，至於是否成立防災總署，統一救災權責？此一概念過去在立法院其實也有討論過。以花蓮光復鄉災情預警應變及救災、未來的檢討究責來說，本席請問劉部長，你與消防署是不是支持成立防災總署來取代中央災害應變中心？你的看法呢？"],["劉部長世芳：我認為要審慎評估。報告委員，我剛剛在回復其他委員時有提到，第一個，現在消防災害防救體系是一個因災因而起的，故前面有些預警必須要有很多專業來幫忙，譬如氣象署發布地震或發布颱風警報，並沒辦法由災防總署幫忙。譬如堰塞湖的監測由農業部在幫忙，或者是其他的大型災害，或者是生物源的災害，必須要由衛福部來處理。如果成立災防總署的話，它在應變的時候能不能快速整合所有這方面的資訊，然後做出判斷、減少生命財產的損失？就這部分來說，其實歷次的災害應變，從以前的九二一開始，就一直在演變當中，我們也一直在精進。這部分包括中央跟地方都有精進討論的空間，我們不排除任何可能。"],["林委員德福：不要像這次一樣多頭馬車，其實外界都有這樣的看法，對不對？像志工到底要向哪個單位報到？他們要做哪裡？等於是沒有統籌！災害發生時第一時間最重要，畢竟臺灣地小人稠，容易受到極端氣候的影響，且山坡地的災害類型將轉變為多元，災害規模將遠超過過去歷史的事件！面對未來未知的災害可能，本席希望農業部要結合AI大數據的計算，以大數據的分析來建立整個災害潛勢圖與疏散避難場所規劃之研究，特別是未來會如何與內政部國土署、經濟部地礦中心合作，以避免類似花蓮光復鄉的慘劇再次發生？次長，你有什麼看法？"],["杜次長文珍：是，謝謝委員指教。應該就是要像這樣把所有的資源統合起來，一起來從事防災救災的事情。"],["林委員德福：以剛剛部長講的……我意思是，防災總署就是負責統籌，當災害發生的時候，若沒有統籌，大家只是各司其職，每一個單位想法、看法都不一樣，就會變成多頭馬車。其實這種狀況全國人民都看在眼裡，對不對？我希望部長能提出看法意見，給立法院一份資料，而且每個委員都要有一份資料，認為未來應該要怎麼做？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我不是天才，但是我會把各方的意見蒐整起來，提供給立委參考。如有修法精進方案的話，我們也必須研議，因為它牽涉的不只是各部會，還包括公私力協商，譬如很多人都提到這次志工的加入。以前志工並不像這一次這麼多人，比較不容易處理……"],["林委員德福：就是因為災害太嚴重，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，再來就是中央跟地方的分工是不是需要再明確？我覺得比較重要的是，我們還是要在各種不同的場合裡繼續告知大家，危機意識非常重要！如果沒有準備、沒有危機意識，那麼所造成的人命傷亡損失就比較不是我們能預估的範圍。"],["林委員德福：我希望能好好檢討，未來不要在災害處理上像這次變成多頭馬車！這些志工真的很有愛心，但站在政府的角度就應該好好檢討，看以後該怎麼做，並以最好的方式來做，這是人民所期待的。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。","我們現在來處理臨時提案，總共有四案，請宣讀。","一、","本（2025）年9月23日，花蓮縣馬太鞍溪發生堰塞湖溢流，洪水沖破光復鄉市區堤防之情事，造成花蓮縣光復鄉、萬榮鄉、鳳林鄉重大災情。無論第一時間之救災、搶災，亦或災後之重建，除政府及外界協助，災民亦有自救之需求。為使受災民眾及其親屬能於災害發生後進行家園重建復原，請行政院研議訂定「災後復原假」及相關配套措施。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　李柏毅　　黃　捷　　張宏陸　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　鄭天財Sra Kacaw","二、","本（2025）年9月23日，花蓮縣馬太鞍溪發生堰塞湖溢流，洪水沖破光復鄉市區堤防之情事，造成人命傷亡。因災害即時告警機制不足，致使部分民眾未能於洪水來襲時即時避難，緊急疏散警報之內容、樣式、方法及其發布時機顯有再精進之空間。請行政院研議精進緊急疏散警報相關機制，俾利緊急疏散作業之進行。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　李柏毅　　黃　捷　　張宏陸","吳琪銘　　王美惠　　","三、","本（2025）年9月，花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖溢流災害，大量泥流灌進下游光復鄉市區，造成當地民眾財產、家園及生活重大損失，為協助重建家園，全國熱心民眾自主遠赴光復鄉協助清淤救災，遺憾的是，救災志工林鴻森先生不幸因傷口感染導致敗血症離世，感佩其救災心切、奮不顧身，義行可風，典型足式，爰建請內政部會同衛生福利部依相關法令呈請總統褒揚，並研議入祀忠烈祠，以供國人矜式。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　李柏毅　　黃　捷　　王美惠","張宏陸　　吳琪銘","四、","案由：鑑於重大災害或突發事件發生時，現行災害警訊傳播系統存在「傳播速度分級延宕」、「非單一標準語文限制」及「觸及範圍不足」等結構性缺陷，嚴重影響新住民、外籍人士、觀光客等多元族群的生命安全，亦不符現代化國家治理對緊急風險溝通（Emergency Risk Communication, ERC）之效率要求。","爰建請行政院邀集相關部會，於一個月內研議：","1.將細胞廣播（Cell Broadcast Service, CBS）提升為所有重大災害、緊急事故強制性、無差別警訊通報手段。","2.建立中央層級之「標準化多語風險溝通模板」（Standardized Multilingual Risk Communication Templates），至少涵蓋我國新住民主要來源國語言及通用語言（如英語、日語等），並強制要求訊息內容納入地理位置、風險性質及明確應變指令。","並將研議成果與具體實施進度，向立法院內政委員會提出書面報告。是否有當？敬請公決。","說明：","I.治理迫切性與學術基礎：緊急風險溝通的當代挑戰","緊急風險溝通（ERC）的黃金原則是「速度、準確、一致性與可及性（Speed, Accuracy, Consistency, and Accessibility）」。在瞬息萬變的災害現場，時間延遲等同於生命風險的增加。現行災害警報系統雖然多元，但仍仰賴如簡訊、網路推播或電視跑馬燈等**「分層傳播」機制，此機制無法確保警訊傳播的即時性與無差別性**。","細胞廣播（CBS）是國際公認且技術成熟的零延遲、廣域、免付費、無須App的強制性推播技術，其特點是「訊號優先級最高」，能直接利用電信基地台將訊息推送到特定區域內所有支援裝置上。將其列為首層（Primary）強制通報手段，是符合國際趨勢（如美國的WEA、日本的J-Alert）與「以人為本」治理原則的迫切需求。這不僅是技術升級，更是風險治理哲學的根本轉變，由「等待民眾接收」轉向「主動觸及」。","II.實務操作與民眾關切：多語傳播與觸及率優化","台灣已是多元社會，新住民、移工、外籍專業人士及國際觀光客人數眾多。當前警訊系統多以中文為主，缺乏標準化、即時的多語種翻譯機制。學術研究指出，警報訊息的「認知可讀性（Cognitive Readability）」與「文化適切性（Cultural Appropriateness）」是決定民眾是否能有效應變的關鍵。當警報訊息僅以單一語文傳遞時，將使數十萬非華語人口在緊急狀態下成為「資訊孤兒（Information Pariahs）」，這不僅是人道問題，更是國家治理在緊急狀態下對特定群體「應盡保護責任（Duty to Protect）」的嚴重缺失。","建立「標準化多語風險溝通模板」可確保：","1.訊息一致性與準確性：預先翻譯並標準化的模板，能消除臨時翻譯錯誤、避免在緊急時刻因人為疏失造成訊息混亂。","2.治理平等性：確保所有居住或停留於國境內的人民，不論其國籍或母語，皆能及時獲得生存所需的緊急資訊，體現國家治理的普世價值。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　牛煦庭　　高金素梅　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　"],["主席：針對第一案到第四案，請問大家有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見的話，第一案到第四案就照案通過。","接下來我們繼續開會，請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}},{"id":"164061","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164061","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcf35ad39a9e374c37179f4a20aeac8eafeaa2f1cd0be3abd6dc3fb96d4c95e3195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"12:11:40 - 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你有發現就是說我們山窟以及偏遠的地方大家都是老弱婦孺都是比較多所以中間這一層人大部分都在外面工作所以可以說很多災難發生你很多地方上你又沒有辦法及時去掌控這一些人員"},{"start":94.828,"end":110.259,"text":"他們有沒有安全的撤離這都是非常重要,尤其我們台灣整個山區的居民都非常的多啊所以說這是我們未來要去檢討要怎麼說,這次我們的M社會事件要怎麼跟他們建制,他們的災禍重建因為對他們的家園損傷都非常嚴重所以說你未來,你說包含我們"},{"start":124.728,"end":143.233,"text":"國土署規劃我們整個國土署那邊的土地還有多少剩餘未來我們的中期的安置計畫包括我們很多不管說社宅也好要安置怎樣我們這些"},{"start":144.834,"end":147.575,"text":"受災,受災婦,讓他們可以在那邊更加安身立命,這是最重要的所以,現在,你說討論責任是歸屬地方還是中央現在最重要,就是要如何來做搶救的工作尤其呢,我看到很多,包括在我的縣區"},{"start":168.106,"end":193.884,"text":"我的選區一些志工都非常的踴躍光是我的選區到花蓮搶救差不多超過100台的遊覽車,他們都是當天來回真的,我們台灣人大家都真的非常有愛心所以說我們未來要怎麼結合這個山區以及偏遠的地方以及我們這個鳳梨縣社府"},{"start":194.471,"end":209.611,"text":"台湾要去整个盘查还有多少存在这个湖面未来的封体的问题这才是应急的改革的问题在这里衬补中你看未来要怎样去规划感谢吴委员的关心"},{"start":210.452,"end":212.434,"text":"經紀農業部的資料現時在台灣這裡有兩個驗射壺一個就是現在馬太安溪一個是在新地目前在馬太安溪這裡因為它水跟土壤已經大量都流了"},{"start":226.81,"end":229.954,"text":"所以現在是監測的部分大概是剩下1.7%所以目前為止它的坡度比較緩但是我們永遠要預測下一次會有什麼時候會發生所以在下一次的汛期之前可能我們要做一些很多這個備變的方式"},{"start":244.75,"end":266.768,"text":"就我所了解經濟部的水利署他們已經針對這個這個核體的部分有2860公尺有三道不同的程序一個是夯實的土地然後再有太空包還有頂塊如果有沖刷下來的話可以擋住讓他下面的下游的這些居住的這個家屋那可以有安全上面的部分"},{"start":267.288,"end":282.338,"text":"然後持續監測的部分的話那個農業部呢也跟日本的國土交通省他們有水位監視器來做處理但是比較不確定的因素就是大規模的崩塌的這個邊坡的不穩定以及什麼時候還會有另外一個颱風夾帶的大量的雨水下來"},{"start":285.24,"end":289.082,"text":"那這個都是在農業部有高度的跟監測當中同時我們也會請他們的跟包括陽明交大、成大、中興或者是台大這些教授的保持聯繫那怕說下一次有沒有這樣子的狀況這是目前的一個監測的一個狀況那再來收容安置的部分呢確實沒有錯因為有些家屋還沒有完全清淤乾淨"},{"start":308.729,"end":321.919,"text":"所以現在我們所了解這個縣市政府裡面的收容安置的人數大概還有兩百三十幾位就是住在這個收容安置所或是旅宿這是行政院或花蓮縣政府所提供的一個暫時的地方那現在有幾個就是剛剛那個委員所提到的"},{"start":326.582,"end":328.985,"text":"現在這麼多土砂要遭遇了目前為止這個行政院在台塘附近大概有備變了兩塊到三塊土石堆置的地方但是仍然不夠那現在大面積需要處理的大概是落在農業部他們農田上面"},{"start":344.426,"end":351.031,"text":"覆蓋的這個土石量大概有600萬方左右非常的多那所以呢現在農業部他們正在想辦法看怎麼樣幫農民解決未來如果農田要做其他的怎麼樣的復育工作的話那我們就尊重農業部來幫忙處理"},{"start":360.837,"end":365.902,"text":"那再來現在仍然有一部分是環境部在主導在那個市區裡面比較多大概就是所謂的親溝側溝親溝有些是跟他們的這個劃分池或者是其他的下水道是連在一起的"},{"start":376.972,"end":397.655,"text":"那目前我所知道他們這個清溝的這個速度他們預計大概30公里現在清溝的速度大概是20公里所以那個紀連城政務委員下令對不起希望在10月18號的時候清溝可以完成這個第一部分的任務讓很多人可以回去原來的家園做比較更正常的生活"},{"start":398.195,"end":405.978,"text":"那在昨天呢行政院的一站式的服務呢針對這個1837戶已經有1518戶完成申請登記那每一個修繕家園的這個進度大概可以獲得包括震災基金會總共有35萬元的部分讓他們回去可以清掃自己的家屋讓自己的家屋呢可以好好的再回復正常的生活"},{"start":422.284,"end":447.043,"text":"那如果對於非常嚴重也就是我們大家所知道的所謂的佛祖階那一代總共有89戶那89戶呢我上次在立法院院會跟院長在回應這個委員的質詢的時候有說要他們挨家挨戶去查詢他們有沒有必須要異地重建或者是原地重建那我們現在有一些資料已經出來如果他需要原地重建或異地重建的話我們都會來協調跟幫忙"},{"start":450.345,"end":468.091,"text":"那如果需要異地重建目前在這個國土署所找到的地點大概是在台塘靠近他們大晉國小那一帶大概是五空井左右但是異地重建不一定是所謂的遷村因為遷村是永遠的你可能遷村的時候就要放棄原來的你已經被這個沖毀的這個部分"},{"start":472.472,"end":492.061,"text":"那如果說他是用中繼屋的方式來要求的話目前我手頭上的資料有這個中介屋中繼屋需求的人數大概是40戶左右但是還要再進一步溝通因為這個都是每一天在與時漸進在處理當中這是以上我們所知道先跟委員報告一下目前的一個進度"},{"start":492.878,"end":497.6,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝,我覺得保庭,我們這一處,這個災害,我們中央也全部都動起來所以我也說,在每天,我也看保庭事項,都去關心所以我們說,剛才這個情形,你說堆積場,漁民太過多了"},{"start":511.494,"end":515.276,"text":"所以說因爲太多了,你對自廠一定要把他照顧得好因爲我看很多,你用人工在那裡熬,那個金錢就沒那麼多那怎麼說呢?我們現在都要靠在種機械嘛在種機械的器具裡面,才有辦法解決這個問題,速度才會快你說一般它的住宅裡面,那當然那個種機械都沒辦法進去,都要靠人工嘛"},{"start":537.346,"end":539.228,"text":"所以說你要結合現在全國在志工都非常踴躍去幫忙要怎麼來結合每一次讓他們有建立他們未來他們的經濟處"},{"start":550.336,"end":553.418,"text":"因為這都是非常費時的問題所以我們為大家說要去討論這個問題這可以徹底改觀你說它的中繼屋中繼屋這個速度一定要快你如果說政府部門為大家說要再討論變略的預算也可以討論給民間不管慈濟啊、紅石智慧啊"},{"start":571.372,"end":583.481,"text":"他們的速度也都是很快,我們現在也不分了就是要負責我們的災民,要怎麼來解決還有一點,你說這些種機械,我看他們入境,我本身這裡的資料有2500多台其實我們每一邊的災害都是在種機械,他們來在協助所以說未來他們種機械的問題,也希望說保證可以負責他們解決他們的問題,就是這個"},{"start":599.433,"end":605.978,"text":"停在種機械的問題都長久以來都沒辦法去解決這也是他們透露的心聲所以說這點也拜託補充 但是有辦法 到該關好 感謝委員 我跟委員報告我們這裡有資料 我剛才跟縣主席會計是出動3071山貓的話是1475我要跟委員報告就是說 這裡的志工朋友非常感恩"},{"start":624.491,"end":630.796,"text":"因為他們可以遊樂的地方都在處理但是你如果是累積這裡的土石很多的古老洞的部分大家都是國軍或是慈濟因為慈濟他們動員五千多人那國軍的話動員更多他們都把它運到戰時堆置的地方所以其實是分工啦只不過國軍的分工 他們都在拔煤 在做工因為歷史的時候 我們這裡的產值超人把那些東西"},{"start":647.19,"end":661.005,"text":"把他堆到那個道路上面但是第二天道路又乾淨了為什麼 因為半夜的時候國軍已經出動很多人力跟機具把他先運走所以一方面都到底在處理這方面就是說公家跟樹林的產殖超人都有互相的分工啦"},{"start":665.53,"end":668.612,"text":"所以每次看到我們都感謝產殖超人他們能夠到現場去我所了解就是包括我們的NCDR 還是包括台鐵光復車站家他們每天都會統計人次 因為沒辦法人嘛大概現主席位置大概是50萬人次"},{"start":683.743,"end":710.129,"text":"50萬人次真的是非常的多而且我也看到一個非常正面的部分就是說這些產值超人如果有碰到受災戶他們還會跟受災戶聊天這也是一種療癒的過程我想這個是對台灣來講都是一個非常正向的力量那國外媒體也有報導那另外就是說如果這個產值超人慢慢減少救災部分的話現在我們還有一個部分就是替代役"},{"start":710.849,"end":726.292,"text":"備役替代役我們請花蓮縣政府發動全台灣第一次的備役替代役的動員大概會有240人次那這個部分呢在下一次要處理緊急疏散撤離的兵棋演練或者是說到人家家屋裡面去再協助 比如說家裡有些人行動不方便 還要到廟室的部分我想備役替代役同樣都是花蓮人"},{"start":735.674,"end":760.742,"text":"應該會協助的機會比較大那就不會說讓現在也是非常忙的包括縣政府或是鄉鎮公所仍然非常忙碌在處理一些其他的事所以我們到目前為止行政院的一站式的服務呢包括新聞節目沒在啦健保卡也沒在我們就馬上幫他做處理那這一方面大概就是慢慢慢慢可以讓他恢復正常的生活所以這是我們目前所做的這個部分當然我們到目前為止"},{"start":762.282,"end":767.489,"text":"中央的災害應變中心跟花蓮縣政府還是一級警戒為什麼 因為這裡面的志工人流太多了冰凶時這個地方 花蓮車頭這裡 光復車頭這裡一天只有八百人"},{"start":781.846,"end":798.836,"text":"你如果有下大雨或是有地震因為前上個禮拜有三次到四次以上的地震警報那這個呢也必須要納入疏散撤離的範圍那所以這就是我們目前為止仍然維持一級警戒裡面四個重要因素裡面的第四個非常重要的好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":800.512,"end":815.844,"text":"我說這次這個災害,我們的中央部會,大家都是通力合作,合作在我們所在的災民,這點本身非常輕盈,所以也感謝我們所有的志工,跟我們的國賓,在這裡再次感謝,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":991,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（12時11分）召委、與會同仁。請內政部部長。"],["主席：請內政部劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員你好。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長你好。針對花蓮堰塞湖的事件，我看早上很多委員都非常的關心，其實堰塞湖這個事件，我看我們的國軍以及各個社團、民眾，大家都非常的踴躍，都是全力地搶救災情，因為事情已經發生，未來我們要怎麼來解決這個問題？因為這是一個非常嚴重的天災，包括我們的一些警報也好，還是民力的結合，也包括警政的結合，因為你會發現在山區以及偏遠的地方，大概都是老弱婦孺比較多，所以中間這一層的人大部分都在外面工作，可以說很多災難發生時，地方上又沒有辦法即時掌控這一些人員有沒有安全的撤離，這都是非常重要的，尤其臺灣整個山區的居民非常多，所以這是我們未來要去檢討的，看要怎麼來跟這次的堰塞湖事件對應，要怎麼來協助他們災後重建，因為他們的家園損傷都非常嚴重，所以未來包含國土署要規劃他們在那邊的土地還有多少剩餘。未來我們中期的安置計畫，包括透過社宅也好，要怎麼安置這些受災戶，要讓他們可以在那邊更加安身立命，這是最重要的，所以現在不要討論責任是歸屬地方或中央，現在最重要的是要如何來做搶救的工作。尤其我看到很多，包括我選區的一些志工，他們都非常的踴躍，光是我的選區到花蓮搶救的人，差不多超過100臺遊覽車，他們都是當天來回，真的，我們臺灣人真的都非常有愛心！我們未來要怎麼結合山區、偏遠地方，以及堰塞湖的部分，臺灣要去整個盤查還有多少湖面存在未來會崩堤的問題，這才是要永久解決的問題，在這裡請部長回答未來要怎麼樣去規劃。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝吳委員的關心，根據農業部的資料，現在臺灣有兩個堰塞湖，一個就是現在的馬太鞍溪，一個是在新竹，目前馬太鞍溪上面因為水跟土石都已經大量流失，現在他們監測的部分大概是剩下1.7%，所以目前為止它的坡度比較緩，但是我們永遠要預測下一次什麼時候會發生，所以在下一次的汛期之前，可能我們要做很多備變的方式。就我所了解的，經濟部水利署已經針對河堤的部分，2,680公尺有三道不同的程序，一個是夯實的土堤，再來有太空包，還有鼎塊，如果有沖刷下來的話可以擋住，讓下游居住的家屋可以安全。","至於持續監測的部分，農業部也取得日本國土交通省的水位監視器來做處理，但是比較不確定的因素就是大規模崩塌邊坡的不穩定，以及不知道什麼時候還會有另外一個颱風夾帶著大量雨水下來，這個部分農業部都有高度監測當中，同時我們也會請他們跟包括陽明交大、成大、中興或者是臺大這些教授保持聯繫，怕說下一次有這樣子的狀況，這是目前監測的狀況。","收容安置的部分，確實沒有錯，因為有些家屋還沒有完全清淤乾淨，所以就現在我們所了解的，縣市政府收容安置的人數大概還有兩百三十幾位，住在收容安置所或是旅宿，就是行政院或花蓮縣政府所提供一個暫時的地方。現在有幾個部分就是剛剛委員所提到的，那麼多的土石要放哪裡？目前為止，行政院在台糖附近大概有備變了兩塊到三塊土石堆置的地方，但是仍然不夠，現在需要大面積處理的大概是落在農業部，農田上面覆蓋的土石量大概有600萬方左右，非常的多，所以現在農業部正在想辦法看要怎麼樣幫農民解決，未來如果農田要做其他復育工作的話，我們就尊重農業部來幫忙處理。","現在仍然有一部分是環境部在主導，在市區裡面比較多的問題大概就是側溝清溝，有些是跟他們的化糞池或其他下水道連在一起。目前我所知道的，他們清溝的長度預計是30公里，現在清溝的長度大概是20公里，所以季連成政務委員下令，希望在10月18號的時候可以完成第一部分的清溝任務，讓很多人可以回去原來的家園過更正常的生活。針對這1,837戶已經有1,518戶昨天在行政院的一站式服務完成申請登記，每一戶修繕家園大概可以獲得包括賬災基金會的款項，總共有35萬元，讓他們回去可以清掃自己的家屋，讓自己的家屋可以好好的，再回復正常的生活。","對於非常嚴重，也就是我們大家所知道的佛祖街那一帶，總共有89戶，我上次在立法院院會跟院長在回應委員質詢的時候，有說要他們挨家挨戶去查詢，看他們有沒有必須要異地重建，或者是原地重建，我們現在已經有一些資料，如果他需要原地重建或異地重建的話，我們都會協調跟幫忙。如果需要異地重建，目前國土署所找到的地點是在台糖靠近大進國小那一帶，大概是5公頃左右，但是異地重建不一定是遷村，因為遷村是永遠的，可能遷村的時候就要放棄原來已經被沖毀的這個部分。如果他是用中繼屋的方式來要求的話，目前我手頭上的資料有中繼屋需求的人數大概是40戶左右，但是還要再進一步溝通，因為這個都是每一天在與時俱進，在處理當中，以上是我們所知道的，先跟委員報告一下目前的進度。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。部長，這次災害中央也全部都動起來，所以我在媒體上也看到部長時常去到那邊關心。遇到這個情形，我們說堆置場淤泥太多了，淤泥太多了，因此堆置場一定要把它建構好，還有我看很多地方用人工在那邊挖，那根本就沒辦法。怎麼說呢？我們現在都要靠這些重機械，這些重機械的器具進去才有辦法解決整個問題，速度才會快，但一般民眾的住宅裡面，當然重機械都沒辦法進去，都要靠人工，現在全國志工都非常踴躍去幫忙他們，所以你要結合志工，看怎麼來結合每一戶，讓他們建立……因為未來要整理房子，這都是非常費時的問題。所以我們有時候要去討論這個問題，才可以澈底解決，但是中繼屋速度一定要快，如果政府部門有時還要透過編列預算，但也可以透過民間，不管慈濟、紅十字會，他們的速度也都很快，我們現在也不分了，就是要替災民想辦法來解決。","還有一點，我看重機械進去，本席這裡的資料有兩千五百多臺，其實我們每一次的災害都是重機械在協助，所以未來重機械的問題，也希望部長可以替他們解決，他們的問題就是重機械停放的問題，長久以來都沒辦法解決，這也是他們吐露的心聲，所以這點也拜託部長想辦法幫忙解決。"],["劉部長世芳：好，感謝委員，我們這裡有資料的，挖土機到現在為止是出動3,701；山貓的話是1,475。我要跟委員報告，我們非常感謝這些志工朋友，因為細緻的地方，都是他們在處理，但是如果是這些累積的土石，因為有很多、好幾噸，大概都是國軍或是慈濟，因為慈濟動員五千多人，而國軍動員更多，他們都運到暫時堆置的地方，所以其實是分工。只不過國軍的分工，他們都在半夜做工，因為白天的時候，這些鏟子超人把東西堆到道路上面，但是第二天道路又乾淨了，為什麼？因為半夜的時候，國軍已經出動很多人力跟機具把它先運走，所以都一起在處理這個部分，政府跟民間這些鏟子超人都有互相分工，每次看到我們都感謝鏟子超人一直去現場幫忙。我所了解的包括我們的NCDR還是臺鐵光復車站，他們每天都會統計人次，因為沒辦法算到人數，到現在為止大概是50萬人次，真的是非常的多。而且我也看到一個非常正面的部分，就是這些鏟子超人如果有碰到受災戶，他們還會跟受災戶聊天，這也是一種療癒的過程，我想對臺灣來講都是非常正向的力量，國外媒體也有報導。","另外，如果鏟子超人慢慢減少，在救災部分現在我們還有備役替代役，我們請花蓮縣政府發動全臺灣第一次備役替代役的動員，大概會有240人次，這個部分在下一次要處理緊急疏散撤離的兵棋演練，或者是到人家家屋裡面再協助細緻的清理時，譬如家裡如果有一些人行動不方便，有需要再幫忙打掃的話，我想備役替代役同樣都是花蓮人，應該會協助的機會比較大。不會讓現在也是非常忙的縣政府或是鄉鎮公所，他們仍然非常忙碌在處理其他的事。","所以到目前為止，行政院的一站式服務，包括身分證不見了、健保卡也不見了，我們就馬上幫他做處理，這一方面大概就慢慢地可以讓他恢復正常的生活，這是我們目前所做的部分。當然到目前為止，中央災害應變中心跟花蓮縣政府還是一級警戒，為什麼？因為裡面的志工人流太多了，平常這個地方──花蓮光復車站這裡，一天只有800人，現在每一天擠進去1萬人、2萬人、3萬人，如果有下大雨或是有地震，因為上個禮拜也有3次、4次以上的地震警報，這也必須要納入疏散撤離的範圍，所以這就是目前為止我們仍然維持一級警戒，四個重要因素中第四個非常重要的因素。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝部長。我說這次災害，中央部會大家都是通力合作，為了協助災民，這點本席非常肯定，所以也感謝所有的志工跟國軍，在這裡再一次感謝，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。我們中午不休息繼續開會，也跟委員會報告，在林德福委員詢答完之後，我們會處理臨時提案。","現在請林德福委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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主席請一下部長和署長還有署長兩位好 兩個人同樣專業就不知道要問哪一個這兩個人很專業"},{"start":26.645,"end":45.171,"text":"我直接這樣子問好了就是我們今年大概有到9月底有47個7項的藥品包括學名藥跟針劑將提供供應請問一下這個到底跟藥價有沒有關係"},{"start":47.129,"end":74.888,"text":"根委員報告這個47項裡面大概屬於原廠要的是24個但是這個原廠都已經有學民要出來所以他們多數是考慮到他們的市場定位像那個什麼百優姐千優姐他根本就是不做了因為跟學民要太多了他不要再跟人家競爭了他就轉變他的這個商業的策略去發展他的專利要為主"},{"start":77.709,"end":95.378,"text":"這全部沒有一樣是專利期內的藥不供應都是過了專利期同時有學名藥所以其實跟藥價是沒有關係的藥價我們都可以來提高所以像4月到現在我們也合訂了200多項的藥品給他提高藥價"},{"start":96.738,"end":122.659,"text":"如果真的是因為成本啊物料的價格的影響也可以來提其實有學名藥出來以後的延長藥其實它的價格本來也就跟學名藥差不多對 這個全世界都是應該是這樣只是說我們要去確保這些學名藥的療效讓它相等在保障這個病人用藥的安全會不會引發缺藥的問題啊"},{"start":125.841,"end":142.308,"text":"會缺藥是這個病人拿不到藥叫做缺藥所以我們要處理的是要預警就不要你突然間斷藥了斷藥的時候病人他換藥也要有一定的時間去適應所以我們才會要求說這些要停止"},{"start":142.888,"end":157.23,"text":"提供應的一定要提早講提早講我們就有辦法來因應不論是開始做統一的控貨或者是輔導其他的業者增加產量因為有些有學名要可是他產線有限"},{"start":158.351,"end":184.456,"text":"它要一下子增加也要時間所以這些我們都有辦法因為只要提早預警我們後面就不會有缺藥的問題我們還是利用這個機會讓部長和署長講一下原廠藥跟學名藥因為大概這一次缺藥所以很多人對學名藥會有誤解我覺得這個部裡面跟署裡面應該要去加強宣導"},{"start":187.352,"end":209.92,"text":"原廠藥就是因為藥廠他負責研發所以研發的費用很貴所以給他5年的專利期不只喔專利期有時候很長 20幾年都有可能看他專利期過了以後他大概就會公佈他的成分 劑量跟劑型"},{"start":210.9,"end":228.691,"text":"那其他的藥廠就可以根據這三項去形塑出來它可能藥的包裝不一樣然後形塑的過程會有差異可是通常來講藥效並沒有說一定就是原廠的比較好對不對"},{"start":229.952,"end":252.036,"text":"譬如說大家最接受的普拿疼他就是學民藥跟委員報告 對很多人以為普拿疼是原廠藥不是 他也是學民藥對 所以我才想說藉這個機會是不是提醒一下部裡面跟署裡面就是盡可能讓國人知道避免恐慌大家都以為說原廠藥的療效比較好"},{"start":257.657,"end":276.577,"text":"其實不見得啦應該這麼講就是學名要問世問世的前提就是原廠要公佈了他的所有的配方所以理論上應該是沒有不必要造成這麼大的恐慌只要他的製程符合規則"},{"start":277.178,"end":292.539,"text":"像我們現在是Peace GNP廠自成符合規範配方對了其實有的都還會做臨床試驗做BABE生物相等性這些所以那個可以確保這個要效是相當的基本上就是不一定"},{"start":293.18,"end":316.651,"text":"不一定完全一樣啦那每個病人接受的也不一樣啦可是我覺得我們有必要把這個觀念跟國人做個說明啦不要大家對於因為其實這個就是民意代表當久了你大概就會遇到很多問題啦其實我們很常被問這個問題啦就是說"},{"start":320.473,"end":346.234,"text":"為什麼醫學中心的藥好像就比澎湖好那我通常都會跟他說不會啦就是一般來講不管是原廠 學民他的療效應該都是跟委員補充說川普總統美國川普總統提告提到說要增加那個進口的藥的藥價的那個不是 關稅要增加他也是針對所謂的原廠藥"},{"start":347.635,"end":361.064,"text":"他也是要扶植他自己國內的學民藥所以他只針對原廠藥去提高那個關稅所以道理是一樣的就是原廠藥應該價格要下降那個有學民藥出來了不應該還是在專利期這麼高對 那他"},{"start":365.266,"end":380.779,"text":"有學名要出來他還可以這麼高可能是很多觀念造成的要不然有相同療效的東西出來理論上他不應該這樣子部長既然直接講到川普那我也直接問一下就是說其實藥品"},{"start":382.856,"end":401.502,"text":"是比戰略物資更重要因為它本身也是戰略物資而且它是不管軍民都必須要用的那我們國內川普他是用關稅來保障學民藥的製作嘛那我們國內有沒有相關的"},{"start":405.223,"end":427.33,"text":"我們的做法上是因為這個所有的藥品健保是最大的買方所以在價格上我們對於國產的學民藥那麼在合價上面如果他是專利期剛過前幾個來就鼓勵趕快有學民藥在台灣製造的我們前兩張我們給的價格跟他跟原廠藥一樣"},{"start":428.95,"end":448.389,"text":"我們原廠藥一旦過了專利期大概有五年的時間慢慢調藥價但是如果在這個五年時間有台灣的學名藥跟他一樣我們就給他一樣的價格來鼓勵那第二個呢就是如果你這個是台灣的學名藥同時有做臨床試驗來證明他的療效相等"},{"start":449.724,"end":476.352,"text":"本來不一定要 但是你做了這個事情我們也給你加價10%價格比較高那另外如果你這個這一組的藥裡面 學名藥的品項低於3個以下的我們那一年也不給你調藥價不砍藥價來鼓勵大家來供藥讓它韌性可以好一點那甚至呢還可以來提彈性提高它的藥價所以當然我們也做了這一些"},{"start":478.053,"end":500.77,"text":"甚至於我的看法啦就是說扶植國內的廠商其實台灣有的時候就是大家也怕圖利啦要不然其實國內的藥品的相關廠商其實應該要給必要的資源就給啦"},{"start":502.191,"end":516.091,"text":"因為這個國內不自己扶植自己的藥廠然後萬一有就是等於你的脖子被其他的國家掐住這個對於台灣"},{"start":518.154,"end":547.269,"text":"跟委員報我們最多的時候齁在我們實施Peace GMP前大概國內的藥廠大概400多家現在呢實施Peace GMP已經到100多家了所以留下來的這個都是有品質的製藥廠所以這個進國人給予多方面的協助啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長謝謝委員你要跟我問一下國安辦主任嗎國安辦主任麻煩一下"},{"start":547.85,"end":559.894,"text":"主任好主任我大概問一下因為時間的關係我還是想要因為我們設立食安辦公室"},{"start":567.475,"end":593.767,"text":"本身就表示在宣示政府對於人民的食品安全有多重視那看起來就是這一次整個從先不要講前端就從你們知情到稽查到存封的速度都太慢了這個第一點第二點就是我問一個問題就是說你們"},{"start":598.769,"end":626.801,"text":"以後要怎麼防止非關注化學物質進入食品 食品廠要 要 要目前有沒有什麼想法好 應該這樣講 講大方向就好了假如已經列入關注化學物質都會納管他不是 不是 不是對 現在就是還沒有納入關注化學物質 對 對可是他就是明明不應該在食品廠的東西 對 對 對"},{"start":628.57,"end":645.042,"text":"所以有兩個方法我們會去檢討說這一些的項目適不適合納進去因為最早我們的顧慮就是說有一些這一些的化學品是有當成10天在用的那會讓"},{"start":646.463,"end":668.103,"text":"民眾會覺得說那怎麼會這些是毒化物然後是可以值得會誤會所以我們未來會用關注化學物質去溝通假如它是沒有定在關注化學物質裡面它運作的紀錄會不夠我們就要靠地形的集合"},{"start":669.024,"end":684.044,"text":"去看它進來的這一些非實天的化學品的管理它的庫存 它的使用紀錄我們去強化我們在實安叫做三專管理專人 專櫃跟專測它每領一瓶出來使用"},{"start":684.825,"end":707.351,"text":"多少應該都要寫記錄那我們就要強化這一些管理他買進來的非實天的化學品所有都應該去列管那用這樣的一個方法強化管理因為他如果對不肖的黑心的業者他硬要做壞事不讓我們查那我們就"},{"start":708.535,"end":731.081,"text":"得要靠其他的方法去讓它浮出來從蘇丹紅到這一次的事件都是非關注化學的物質假如說每個業者都很有良心也不需要設立食安辦所以我因為時間的關係我今天不大想已經沒有辦法跟你"},{"start":732.161,"end":752.498,"text":"溝通很多啦不過我覺得我去找委員我覺得現在沒有納入非關注的部分你們要怎麼去查查這個你們要好好的想一想然後人力不足的部分我是覺得"},{"start":754.159,"end":764.261,"text":"食藥署那邊好像已經有增加24個名額也還沒有用要進出補足啦好 謝謝主任 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1234,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時19分）謝謝主席。主席，請部長和署長。"],["主席：請部長和署長。"],["石部長崇良：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：兩個人同樣專業，就不知道要問哪一個，因為這兩位都很專業。我直接這樣問好了，到今年9月底大概有47項藥品，包括學名藥和針劑將停止供應。請問一下，這到底跟藥價有沒有關係啊？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，這47項裡屬於原廠藥的是24個，但是原廠因為都已經有學名藥出來，所以多數是考慮到其市場地位，像什麼百憂解、千憂解，根本就不做了啦！因為學名藥太多，原廠不願再跟人家競爭，於是轉變它的商業策略，以發展專利藥為主。所以全都沒有一樣專利期內的藥不供應，都是過了專利期，同時有學名藥者。"],["楊委員曜：所以其實跟藥價沒有關係？"],["石部長崇良：藥價都可以提高，從4月到現在，我們也核定了兩百多項藥品予以提高藥價，如果真的是因為成本、物料價格的影響，也可以來……"],["楊委員曜：其實在學名藥出來以後，原廠藥的價格本來也就會跟學名藥差不多嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對，全世界應該都是這樣。只是我們要確保這些學名藥的療效相等，以保障病人用藥的安全。"],["楊委員曜：會不會引發缺藥問題啊？"],["石部長崇良：關於會不會缺藥，因為病人拿不到藥叫缺藥，所以我們要處理的是預警，就是不要突然間斷藥了。由於斷藥之後，病人換藥需要一定時間適應，所以我們才會要求停止供應這些藥一定要提早講。只要提早講，我們就有辦法因應，不論是開始統一控貨或者是輔導其他業者增加產量。有些業者有學名藥，可是產線有限，一下子要增加也要時間。但這些情況都有辦法因應，只要提早預警，後面就不會有缺藥問題。"],["楊委員曜：我還是要利用這個機會讓部長和署長講一下原廠藥跟學名藥啦！因為這次缺藥大概顯示出很多人對學名藥有誤解，部裡和署裡應該加強宣導啦！原廠藥就是因為由藥廠負責研發，而研發費用很貴，所以給予5年專利期。"],["石部長崇良：不只喔！專利期有時候很長，二十幾年都有。"],["楊委員曜：可能看投資程度。那專利期過了以後，大概就會公布成分……"],["石部長崇良：配方。"],["楊委員曜：劑量跟劑型。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["楊委員曜：其他藥廠就可以根據這3項形塑出藥物。可能藥的包裝不一樣，形塑過程會有差異，但是通常來講，藥效上並非原廠藥就一定比較好，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["楊委員曜：譬如大家最接受的普拿疼就是學名藥。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，對！很多人以為普拿疼是原廠藥，不是！它也是學名藥。"],["楊委員曜：對，所以我才想藉這個機會提醒一下部裡跟署裡，要儘可能讓國人知道以避免恐慌啦！大家都以為原廠藥的療效比較好，其實不見得，應該這麼講，學名藥問世的前提就是原廠藥公布了所有配方。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["楊委員曜：所以，理論上應該沒必要造成這麼大的恐慌。"],["石部長崇良：對，只要製程符合規範，像我們現在是依照PIC/S GMP審查，只要製程符合規範、配方對了即可，有的還會做臨床試驗、BA/BE生物相等性這些試驗，所以可以確保藥效是相當的。"],["楊委員曜：基本上就是不一定完全一樣啦！每個病人接受的程度也不一樣，可是我覺得有必要就這個觀念跟國人作個說明啦！"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["楊委員曜：不要讓大家誤解。其實民意代表當久了，大概就會遇到很多問題，我們就很常被問到這個問題啦！就是為什麼醫學中心的藥就比澎湖好，我通常都會跟他們說不會啦！一般來講，不管是原廠藥、學名藥，療效應該都一樣。"],["石部長崇良：我再跟委員補充，美國川普總統主張提高、增加進口藥的藥價的……不是，是關稅要增加，也是針對原廠藥。因為他也要扶植自己國內的學名藥，所以會針對原廠藥提高關稅，道理是一樣的，就是原廠藥價格應該下降，因為有學名藥出來了，價格就不應該像還在專利期間這麼高。"],["楊委員曜：對、當然，有學名藥出來後價格還可以那麼高，可能是很多觀念造成的。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["楊委員曜：要不然既然有相同療效的東西出來，理論上不應該這樣。","部長既然直接講到川普，那我也直接問一下。其實藥品比戰略物資更重要，因為它本身也是戰略物資，而且是不管軍民都必須用的。川普是用關稅保障學名藥的製作，那我們國內有沒有相關做法？"],["石部長崇良：在我們的做法上，因為對所有藥品來說，健保是最大買方，所以在價格上，對國產學名藥核價時，如果是專利期剛過、前幾個來申請者，我們為了鼓勵學名藥趕快在臺灣製造，對於前兩張，我們給的價格會跟原廠藥一樣。原廠藥一旦過了專利期，大概有5年時間慢慢調藥價，但是如果在這5年時間中有臺灣學名藥跟它一樣，我們就核定一樣的價格，作為鼓勵。第二，如果臺灣的學名藥同時做了臨床試驗證明其療效相等，本來不一定要，但是業者做了這件事，那麼我們也同意加價10%，價格比較高。另外，如果在這組藥裡面，學名藥的品項低於3個，那一年也不砍藥價，以鼓勵大家供藥，讓韌性好一點，甚至還可以彈性提高其藥價，所以我們大概做了這些措施。"],["楊委員曜：我的看法甚至是要扶植國內廠商。在臺灣，其實大家有時候就是怕圖利，要不然對於國內藥品相關廠商，應該給予必要資源的就要給啦！因為國內若不扶植自己的藥廠，就等於脖子被其他國家掐住，這對臺灣……"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，在我們實施PIC/S GMP前，國內藥廠最多的時候大概有四百多家，現在實施PIC/S GMP後，已經到一百多家了，所以留下來的都是有品質的製藥廠，國人可以信任。"],["楊委員曜：就是儘可能給予多方面協助啦！謝謝部長、謝謝署長。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：可以讓我再問問食安辦主任嗎？食安辦主任，麻煩一下。"],["許主任輔：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：主任好。雖然受限時間的關係，但我還是想問。設立食安辦公室本身就表示，政府在宣示對於人民的食品安全有多重視。但就這一次看起來，先不要講前端，就從你們知情、稽查到存封，速度都太慢了，這是第一點。第二點，我問你一個問題就好，你們以後要怎麼防止非關注化學物質進入食品廠？目前有沒有什麼想法？大方向就好了。"],["許主任輔：應該這樣講，假如已經列入關注化學物質，都會納管……"],["楊委員曜：不是！"],["許主任輔：現在的問題就是還沒有納入關注化學物質者。"],["楊委員曜：對，可是它明明就是不應該在食品廠的東西啦！"],["許主任輔：對，所以有兩個方法，我們會檢討這些項目適不適合納進去。最早我們的顧慮是有一些化學品被當成食添在用，民眾會覺得這些毒化物怎麼會是可以吃的，可能會有誤會，所以未來我們會用關注化學物質來加以溝通，假如沒有定在關注化學物質裡面，運作的紀錄會不夠。"],["楊委員曜：對，我現在問的是這個部分啦！"],["許主任輔：我們就要靠例行稽核去查看這些被送進來的非食添化學品如何管理，包括庫存、使用紀錄，以強化我們在食安上所稱的三專管理，專人、專櫃、專冊，每一筆、每一瓶拿出來使用多少都應該寫紀錄。我們就是要強化這些管理，所有買進來的非食添化學品都應該列管，用這樣的方法強化管理。如果不肖黑心業者硬要做壞事、不讓我們查，就得靠其他方法讓它浮出來。"],["楊委員曜：從蘇丹紅到這一次事件都屬於非關注化學物質，假如每個業者都很有良心，也不需要設立食安辦公室了。因為時間的關係，我今天已經沒有辦法跟你溝通很多了。"],["許主任輔：我們再去找委員。"],["楊委員曜：不過我覺得對於現在沒有納入非關注化學物質的部分要怎麼查察，你們要好好地想一想。"],["許主任輔：好。"],["楊委員曜：人力不足的部分，食藥署那邊好像已經增加24個名額，也還沒有用，要儘速補足啦！"],["許主任輔：好。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝主任、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","本日會議議程詢答全部結束，現在作以下決定：第一、報告及詢答完畢。第二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時32分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edceb6a49e337779c65eadaba87319979820384c49a5c493879739038d26760b9c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:09:38 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麻煩請部長謝謝好 又請施部長委員好部長好 我們現在在討論這個食安問題嘛在前政府啦 蔡總統時期一直強調食安五環可以確保大家的食安沒有問題但很顯然喔 這個事件就是獨大腸事件它是從源頭管理就出現問題"},{"start":34.404,"end":53.592,"text":"剛剛我有看到包括執政黨立委都非常不滿譬如說之前因為今天沒有環境部啦但是環境部那個時候也是跟大家講說食安五環的第一環源頭管理要一些化學添加物他都要管理沒錯吧所以積極遊說大家成立讀畫局"},{"start":55.137,"end":68.623,"text":"而且還要花錢去建置化學雲就是說那個如果有相關的化學的東西要登錄然後如果他的流向是比較不正當的地方 而不是不正當啦是這個讀大長時間有做"},{"start":78.615,"end":92.294,"text":"跟委員說明剛好這個雙氧水H2O2沒有在化學雲應登錄的項目沒有所以那時候化學雲在建置的時候沒有思考到工業用雙氧水會拿去洗大廠"},{"start":93.939,"end":108.853,"text":"沒有思考到這件事情當時候沒有當時候沒有那工業用雙氧水有沒有可能也是去洗別的東西有沒有可能除了洗大腸之外有沒有可能洗其他食品造成也是一樣毒食品的狀況有沒有可能"},{"start":111.231,"end":126.662,"text":"就是這個如果是食用食品級的H2O2的雙氧水是可以做我是說工業用啦我是說因為它食品級可以用就有可能被混進去用啦所以工業我們才會說納入那個"},{"start":127.583,"end":145.542,"text":"部長因為今天環境部沒來啦我跟你請教一下你覺得工業用涮氧水應不應該被納入化學雲的應該要把它應該那為什麼之前政府講的好像源頭管理多厲害啊食安靠政府啊有政府就沒問題啦結果連一個工業用涮氧水當時在建置化學雲的時候都想不到"},{"start":147.369,"end":160.466,"text":"跟委員報當時候在考量哪些要納入的時候他有考慮到第一個是他的那個風險程度啦他的毒性啦他顯然就判斷是準嘛如果今天如果那時候講那麼準的話我們今天也不用討論這個題目了嘛"},{"start":162.182,"end":191.045,"text":"所以今天沒有環境部因為但是食安主責單位還是衛福部是不是可以請衛福部跟環境部講清楚那個時候建制化學研究所講得那麼厲害然後結果連什麼該納入什麼不該納入都有漏掉的這個國人會覺得很訝異啊特別報告一下因為雙氧水H2O2它其實經過時間之後它其實就變水了所以它本身的毒性當初的想法它是毒性低的"},{"start":191.906,"end":195.916,"text":"所以相較以前的塑化劑相較以前的毒澱粉的"},{"start":197.253,"end":221.383,"text":"所以你覺得不用納入嗎所以署長覺得不用納入是不是當初是這樣子的想法所以你就不用再講當初了嘛我們現在就已經我們現在就是在討論這個毒大腸事件你還在跟我講當初部長剛剛都說應該納入了所以你覺得不該納入嗎所以我們現在覺得他應該需要我現在只是講說會不會你當初認為風險比較低的東西其實他的風險比你想像的高嘛"},{"start":222.759,"end":239.727,"text":"工業用雙氧水就是嘛就是它的用途多啦對用途多嘛所以它就有可能變成風險高的東西所以我是說請衛福部跟環境部建議好不好就是說重新再去思考一下哪一些化學添加物應該要被納入的就是從之前認為風險比較低現在發現從這個事件"},{"start":244.309,"end":267.243,"text":"未來可以把它納入了 你們跟他們建議一下從食安的角度嘛 好不好 第二個跟文報我們會去盤點 這些化學添加物哪些是還同時有工業用的 我們一起做盤點一起做盤點啊 好不好 讓那個化學雲建制的有用嘛 好不好第二個喔 這個應該就是衛福部的業務啦就是有一個 你們有一個登錄平台叫做非登不可嘛"},{"start":268.686,"end":295.104,"text":"我們去查了一下這家屏東百貨公司好像飛燈不可也沒有他的資料對他沒有登錄那你們當初在宣傳飛燈不可的時候還拍影片啊還做一大堆宣傳說103年12月31號以前沒有登錄的人業者是不可以營業的而且在宣傳的時候嚴格到什麼地步連那個送外賣的都要登錄啊結果一個做大廠"},{"start":296.812,"end":312.677,"text":"做這麼多的不用登錄為什麼所以這個違法沒有登錄我們就給他重罰因為我們這個要求就是要去登錄那你故意違法漠視這個法律規定這已經有一段時間了所以我們才予以重罰所以前面的源頭都出問題嘛"},{"start":314.147,"end":332.855,"text":"你沒有辦法從源頭這個角度去處理去把食安的問題把它防避啊不管是化學雲啊飛燈不可你現在是事後罰嘛但是飛燈不可應該是屬於源頭管理嘛對不對那所以如果源頭出問題那衛福部應該要怎麼解決勒"},{"start":334.882,"end":349.697,"text":"這個還是要強制去做 我就事後把事後把大家的那個大腸都吃下去了而且這一次那個大腸事件其實有賴很多下游業者自己自發性的跳出來講了比如說像阿周麵線他是自己第一時間跳出來講嘛所以他有進嘛對不對"},{"start":350.498,"end":366.758,"text":"那如果他沒有一開跳出來講等到衛福部或地方衛生局去查查查然後他又沒有登錄沒有登錄會增加查的時間嘛所以很可能如果不是業者自發性有良心的業者自己出來的話吃到肚子裡面的更多啦所以這也是一個很大的漏洞啊"},{"start":368.187,"end":383.198,"text":"對 所以部長要怎麼解決這個我們會去加強這個登錄還有上下游的串聯來讓我們掌握住哪個地方的環節可能要怎麼加強上下游串聯前後 就是你一定有"},{"start":383.858,"end":403.252,"text":"下游嘛下游你要去核對說那你買的貨源是不是合法有登錄的來源這些是整個上下游要串聯起來這個是我們現在在做為什麼要讓他這個通通上平台那麼從產至銷通通要一條龍把它串起來就是這樣"},{"start":404.773,"end":428.974,"text":"好那部長你們應該會提一個檢討報告出來吧因為今天大家也問了很多嘛那顯然有一些只是比較抽象概念沒有具體的做法那是不是會有一個比較具體的做法對來跟那個至少一個報告給大家參考一下從這個案件呢從這個案件我們會做一些內部的檢討還有哪一些環節可以再強化的這樣"},{"start":429.714,"end":444.602,"text":"所以你也覺得食安五環有問題嗎還是有強化的作業上有很大的問題啦是之前吹噓的太厲害了啦好啦再來喔我跟你問一下那個缺藥的問題因為現在有很多藥都退出台灣了嘛"},{"start":445.7,"end":471.892,"text":"那魏福布的態度是覺得影響不大因為有很多替代性的用藥是吧跟委員報告我們現在健保供應的藥品是一萬四千多項那這裡面這一次呢今年登錄先來通報說他打算在六個月間會這個停止提供的大概這四十七個項目這個我都知道這個新聞都有報啦你們也都有講過我的問題是說這裡面都是有"},{"start":472.892,"end":497.808,"text":"有学名药的因为福布讲的是说因为有学名药或者是替代所以影响不大这个全世界大概都是这个趋势实际上我们就听有些医生反映例如说像化痰药气疏痰其实它退出市场其实很多病人很多人在反映这个药那当然你说有替代药但问题是好像有人用了替代药效果没有气疏痰那么"},{"start":498.928,"end":516.033,"text":"以這個藥這個Visobon來講它是印尼廠那是因為這個代理商跟這個印尼廠的合約上出問題那是不是因為你價格砍到他不敷成本所以印尼廠商都不願意做所以他現在尋求另外一個所以實際上是跟藥價還是有關嘛"},{"start":518.274,"end":533.442,"text":"那我是觉得如果是药架我们都可以来调整因为你们在那个药哪一些药本来是自费药要纳入健保药这一块我是听很多医生在讲有时候健保署就管得太宽了有些药"},{"start":534.602,"end":562.651,"text":"有些病人他就是願意自費去做因為他比較好願意自費但是硬要把那個自費藥變成健保藥然後又砍藥價人家就退出去變得原本要自費都用不到其實這是一個問題第二個是像有一些藥如果你要把它砍到價格夫夫成本那人家當然只有退出但是你講的又是說那沒有關係退出就退出我們有全民藥我們有替代藥品可是使用的狀況就是不如原廠的藥來得好最後受害的還是病人"},{"start":563.801,"end":589.138,"text":"不過我覺得在處理這個藥價的部分你要考量的點很多啦因為藥品不是一般的產品藥品是方方面面都要考量啦這個確實像委員說的這個需要考量的層面很廣所以到底是不是給予這個所謂的病人自費的差額負擔就可以解決這個問題我們會再更審慎的去評估好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝部長請問"},{"start":593.465,"end":593.486,"text":"謝謝葉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1151,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時9分）主席好，麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我們現在在討論食安問題，在前政府蔡總統時期，一直強調食安五環可以確保大家的食安沒有問題，但很顯然這個毒大腸事件，它是從源頭管理就出現問題，剛剛我有看到包括執政黨立委都非常不滿。因為今天沒有環境部，但是環境部那個時候也是跟大家說食安五環的第一環源頭管理，一些化學添加物它都要管理，沒錯吧？所以積極遊說大家成立毒化局，而且還要花錢去建置化學雲，如果有相關化學的東西要登錄，但是它的流向是不應該去的地方，譬如食品業者，應該就可以立刻勾稽出來，這是源頭管理嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：那這源頭有做到嗎？在這一次毒大腸的事件有做到嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，剛好這個雙氧水H2O2沒有在化學雲應登錄的項目。"],["葉委員元之：沒有？所以那時候化學雲在建置的時候，沒有思考到工業用雙氧水會拿去洗大腸？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：沒有思考到這件事情？"],["石部長崇良：當時候沒有。"],["葉委員元之：當時候沒有？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：工業用雙氧水有沒有可能也去洗別的東西？有沒有可能？除了洗大腸之外，有沒有可能洗其他食品？也是一樣造成毒食品的狀況，有沒有可能？"],["石部長崇良：如果是食品級的H2O2雙氧水，是可以做……"],["葉委員元之：我說工業用啦！"],["石部長崇良：對，我是說因為食品級可以用，就有可能被混進去用啦！所以我們才會說要納入化學雲。"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為今天環境部沒來，我跟你請教一下，你覺得工業用雙氧水應不應該被納入化學雲？"],["石部長崇良：應該要把它納入。"],["葉委員元之：應該？那為什麼之前政府講的好像源頭管理多厲害，食安靠政府、有政府就沒問題，結果連一個工業用雙氧水在當時建置化學雲的時候都想不到？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當時在考量哪些要納入的時候，有考慮到第一個是它的風險程度、它的毒性等等，所以那時候沒有……"],["葉委員元之：顯然就是判斷失準嘛！如果那時候講得那麼準的話，我們今天也不用討論這個題目了嘛！今天沒有環境部，是因為食安主責單位還是衛福部，是不是可以請衛福部跟環境部講清楚，建置化學雲的時候講得那麼厲害，結果連什麼該納入、什麼不該納入都有漏掉的，這個國人會覺得很訝異啊！"],["姜署長志剛：特別報告一下，因為雙氧水H2O2其實時間經過之後就變成水了，所以它本身的毒性在當初的想法是低的，相較以前的塑化劑、相較以前的毒澱粉。"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得不用納入嗎？"],["姜署長志剛：當初、當初！"],["葉委員元之：所以署長覺得不用納入是不是？"],["姜署長志剛：當初是這樣子的想法。"],["葉委員元之：所以就不用再講當初了嘛！我們現在就在討論毒大腸事件，你還在跟我講當初，部長剛剛都說應該納入了。"],["姜署長志剛：所以現在我們就……"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得不該納入嗎？"],["姜署長志剛：所以我們現在覺得應該需要。"],["葉委員元之：那就不用再講了嘛！我現在只是說會不會你當初認為風險比較低的東西，其實它的風險比你想像的高，工業用雙氧水就是嘛！"],["石部長崇良：就是它的用途多啦！"],["葉委員元之：對，用途多嘛！所以它就有可能變成風險高的東西，所以我是說請衛福部跟環境部建議，好不好？就是重新再去思考一下，哪一些化學添加物應該要被納入……"],["許主任輔：對，我們會有很多的盤點。"],["葉委員元之：就是從之前認為風險比較低，現在從這個事件發現未來可以把它納入，你們跟他們建議一下，從食安的角度嘛！好不好？第二個……"],["石部長崇良：是。跟委員報告，我們會去盤點這些化學添加物，哪些同時是還有工業用的，我們一起做盤點。"],["葉委員元之：一起做盤點，讓化學雲建置得有效用嘛！好不好？第二個應該就是衛福部的業務，你們有一個登錄平臺叫做「非登不可」。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：我們去查了一下這家屏東百威公司，好像「非登不可」也沒有它的資料。"],["石部長崇良：對，它沒有登錄。"],["葉委員元之：你們當初在宣傳「非登不可」的時候還拍影片，還做一大堆宣傳，說103年12月31號以前沒有登錄的業者是不可以營業的，而且在宣傳的時候嚴格到什麼地步，連送外賣的通通都要登錄，結果一個做大腸做這麼多的不用登錄，是為什麼？"],["石部長崇良：所以這個違法沒有登錄，我們就給它重罰。"],["葉委員元之：違法……"],["石部長崇良：因為我們這個要求就是要去登錄，那你故意違法，漠視這個法律規定，已經有一段時間了，所以我們才予以重罰。"],["葉委員元之：是啊！所以前面的源頭都出問題嘛！你沒有辦法從源頭這個角度去把食安的問題加以防弊，不管是化學雲、「非登不可」，你現在是事後罰嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：但是「非登不可」應該是屬於源頭管理。"],["石部長崇良：對，是源頭管理，追蹤是有特別需要……"],["葉委員元之：所以如果源頭出問題，那衛福部應該要怎麼解決？"],["石部長崇良：這個還是要強制去做……"],["葉委員元之：你不能說事後罰，事後罰大家把大腸都吃下去了啊！而且這一次的大腸事件，其實有賴很多下游業者自發性地跳出來講，譬如阿忠麵線，他是自己第一時間跳出來說他有進，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["葉委員元之：如果他沒有一開始跳出來講，等到衛福部或地方衛生局去查，然後它又沒有登錄，沒有登錄會增加查的時間，所以很可能如果不是業者自發性、有良心的業者自己出來的話，吃到肚子裡面的更多啦！所以這也是一個大漏洞啊！部長要怎麼解決這個問題？"],["石部長崇良：我們會去加強登錄，還有上下游的串聯，讓我們掌握住哪個地方的環節可能……"],["葉委員元之：要怎麼加強上下游的串聯？"],["石部長崇良：就是你一定有下游嘛！下游你要去核對你買的貨源是不是合法、有登錄的來源，整個上下游要串聯起來，這個是我們現在在做的，為什麼要讓它通通上平臺，從產製銷通通要一條龍把它串起來，就是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你們應該會提一個檢討報告出來吧？"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["葉委員元之：因為今天大家也問很多，顯然有一些只是比較抽象概念，沒有具體的做法，是不是會有一個比較具體的做法？至少有一個報告給大家參考一下。"],["石部長崇良：從這個案件，我們會做一些內部的檢討，還有哪一些環節可以再強化的。"],["葉委員元之：所以你也覺得食安五環有問題嗎？"],["石部長崇良：還是有強化的……作業上……"],["葉委員元之：有很大的問題啦！是之前吹噓得太厲害了啦！再來，我跟你問一下缺藥的問題，因為現在有很多藥都退出臺灣了，衛福部的態度是覺得影響不大，因為有很多替代性的用藥，是吧？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們現在健保供應的藥品是一萬四千多項，這裡面這一次今年登錄先來通報，說它打算在6個月間會停止提供的大概在47個項目裡頭……"],["葉委員元之：這個我們都知道，這個新聞都有報，你們也都有講過，我的問題是說……"],["石部長崇良：這裡面都是有學名藥。"],["葉委員元之：衛福部是說因為有學名藥或者是替代的，所以影響不大。"],["石部長崇良：全世界大概都是這個趨勢。"],["葉委員元之：可是實際上我們就有聽一些醫生反映，例如說像化痰藥「氣舒痰」退出市場，其實很多病人在反映這個藥，當然你說有替代藥，但問題是好像有人用了替代藥，效果沒有「氣舒痰」那麼好。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，以這個藥Bisolvon來講，它是印尼廠啦！那是因為代理商跟印尼廠的合約上出問題，並不是價格。"],["葉委員元之：是不是因為你價格砍到它不敷成本，所以印尼廠商都不願意做？"],["石部長崇良：不是，所以它現在尋求另外一個……"],["葉委員元之：對啊！所以實際上這跟藥價還是有關嘛！我是覺得……"],["石部長崇良：如果是藥價，我們都可以來調整。"],["葉委員元之：因為你們哪一些藥本來是自費藥，要納入健保藥這一塊，我是聽很多醫生在講，有時候健保署管得太寬了，有些藥有些病人願意自費去付，因為它比較好，但是你硬要把那個自費藥變成健保藥，然後又砍藥價，人家就退出去，變成原本要自費都用不到，其實這是一個問題。第二個，有一些藥如果你要把它砍到價格不敷成本，那人家當然只有退出，但是你講的又是說那沒有關係，退出就退出，我們有學名藥，我們有替代藥品，可是使用的狀況就是不如原廠的藥來得好，最後受害的還是病人……"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們對於……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你在處理藥價的部分，你要考量的點很多啦！因為藥品不是一般的產品，藥品是方方面面都要考量。"],["石部長崇良：這個確實像委員說的，這個需要考量的層面很廣，所以到底是不是給予所謂的病人自費的差額負擔就可以解決這個問題，我們會再更審慎地去評估。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝，部長請回，謝謝葉委員。","接下來請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164058","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164058","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcdd977ca2d203cf9beadaba87319979820384c49a5c49387943b8e70d39bd81cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:49:56 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謝謝主席我邀請食安辦許主任還有江署長食安辦許主任 部長你那一位我希望跟主任跟署長對話也請部長聽看看部長因為我們在修食安法的時候那個時候你應該是144的司長100年的時候 你說"},{"start":27.12,"end":52.07,"text":"應該主任跟江署長都應該都會有這樣的印象不過當時你們都還沒有來啦從100年的時候什麼地溝油啦毒奶粉啦然後工業用的其中還有一個是工業用的某某什麼樣的一個原料他基本上也流用到很大的食品廠裡面去做他的添加物這個所以從100年的時候一直修修修修了修了將近"},{"start":54.171,"end":70.702,"text":"應該是七次到八次就是要讓這個食安法更正完備也建立起台灣消費者對政府的信心除此之外還有所有的這些業者的有所遵循不要再有這樣的一個這麼大的一個食安危機來產生"},{"start":72.663,"end":88.103,"text":"所以今天才會特別來辦這樣的一個 召開這樣的一個專案報告我要接續剛剛王子旭委員的槌尋還有廖偉祥召委的槌尋剛剛主任是回答他一個月時間你說這一個月 如果再給你一個月時間"},{"start":90.064,"end":104.489,"text":"三華可能又要再重來大修了然後如果剛剛聽到部長針對蘇清泉召委那個臨時提案部長跟那個江署長的回應目前我們已經有封信的是"},{"start":105.449,"end":128.866,"text":"剛剛署長講是好像兩萬多噸嘛後來部長趕快把麥克風搶起來說是一千兩百多公斤嘛然後從這家不銷廠家已經分送到應該是屬於中下游的這個廠家基本上應該有扣兩千多公斤起來嘛對不對但是已經出去的七八百公斤左右嘛這說實在正確嘛"},{"start":130.387,"end":157.367,"text":"但是我會很驚訝因為署長就坐在部長旁邊為什麼你們兩個講的數據天狼地瘪今天是專案報告 今天是專案報告署長 今天是專案報告你們的專案報告裡面兩份基本上很多的數據該去凸顯出來通通沒有你們自己回去看你們的專案報告是非常非常我實在不願意講這些話了是已經藐視到未還委員會所有的委員也藐視台灣的消費者"},{"start":160.057,"end":184.138,"text":"剛剛林委員講那些話我覺得坦白講你如果還不覺得那是一個非常重的話其實對江署長來講是一個很大的挑戰跟諷刺了因為我們都看好江署長就任之後應該對整個不管是食品不管是藥物會有很多的革新的這樣的積極的作為那怎麼會在你任內發生這麼嚴重的事情"},{"start":184.929,"end":211.766,"text":"他已經用到怠惰 獨持內神通外鬼還是外神通內鬼各位剛剛都有在場嘛 都有聽到這些話那你們怎麼還會在臨時提案的時候會把數據又講錯如果要再追下去這些數據是這些而已嗎我再簡單講啦我實在是很想再聽徐主任講說這個事情怎麼會發生"},{"start":213.444,"end":236.274,"text":"怎麼可能這樣發生怎麼發生完之後的處理的整個SOP是這個樣子到今天在委員會對所有委員做出的報告又是這個樣子連剛剛你們打呼王委員的那一個內容你們就這樣講的過去我要簡單講 當時因為很多的面向"},{"start":239.454,"end":260.508,"text":"所以才會在這個委員會一直修一直修一直修有一個法律修得好像跟交通處罰條例一模一樣修不完耶 修不停修到最後大家覺得台灣的食安已經往前邁進一大步"},{"start":261.684,"end":284.476,"text":"那今天回過稻草發生這件事情 六月初被檢舉到十月才有這樣的動作然後你們剛剛答覆的是要會同保七總隊你跟我講在剛剛部長答覆委員的相關的問題這五年就好 總共有告發三百五十幾件"},{"start":285.672,"end":310.331,"text":"總共金額花了兩千多萬 對不對好 這五年 這五年花了兩千多萬三百多件跟這一件雷同的 跟這件的樣態差不多的有需要收到檢舉六月 然後才十月初擴大檢警調 好 然後相關單位去做處理嘛"},{"start":312.13,"end":326.961,"text":"我隨便都可以列舉 等一下我的資料裡面就會顯示出來有拖這麼久嗎有需要這麼做嗎有需要這個是你們原有的SOP啊還是換了江書長之後SOP改了"},{"start":331.075,"end":358.312,"text":"所以我希望在委員會你們就很坦誠的很實際的把狀況講清楚了這個事情怎麼可能還有讓你一個月的時間去做什麼樣的調整跟修正部長 新官三任三把火你該立位就該要立位了因為畢竟你也當過衛福部的次長所以你去履歷一下這整個過程"},{"start":359.758,"end":382.226,"text":"真的問題大到很難想像啊我再簡單提醒兩件事情這家公司啊 這家公司營業項目一大堆這家公司我們一樣算五年就好他用的工業用的 淨的工業用的這雙氧水 他淨了多少量他不是關注的化學物質"},{"start":383.496,"end":407.672,"text":"但是他的這個化學物質一直流向這家公司這家公司零零總總登記的多數都是在做茶葉 煙酒 食品 農產 畜產 水產其他農畜產品還有飼料 還有食品實貨 飲料 零售業還有太多 太多通通跟食品有關係"},{"start":409.114,"end":434.974,"text":"這五年這家公司這家公司進了多少公寓用的這雙重水我們的政府不管是環境部的毒化署 化學署現在改為化學署我們的衛護部的FDA通通不知道通通沒有掌握還需要經過人家檢舉之後"},{"start":437.182,"end":465.843,"text":"然後現在說要一個月時間來做相關的調整還是處理還是怎麼樣這個你們說得過去你知道剛剛說查扣封存的查扣的這些這些是你們現在有扣的那再往前推還有其他廠家像這樣類似的大廠用在什麼樣的用在什麼樣的食物上"},{"start":469.212,"end":496.955,"text":"主任你知道吧不是只有台灣的特色小吃叫做大腸麵線他用了幾項我們每天台灣的國人幾乎通通要吃到大腸麵線不一定大家每天都會吃嘛那早餐有一個叫做什麼大腸豬尾湯 吃得到嗎 會嘛那火鍋店的主要食材大腸是不是很重要的 對 好"},{"start":497.984,"end":514.909,"text":"然後咧 還有什麼你可以講 大家講給我聽聽幾項時間到了這麼快對啊 滷味啊 麻辣啊 燒烤啊各種的其實炸肥腸啊 薑絲炒大腸啊肥腸茄堡啊我剛剛在底下就寫了11項就寫了11項不只啦 還有還有"},{"start":527.967,"end":547.476,"text":"我們每天到底這一家被你們查獲的被檢舉被你們查獲的這個廠家百威流入到這些店面餐廳火鍋店小吃店串燒店每天到底多少量查獲之前這五年我們就抓這五年就好了所以"},{"start":555.818,"end":580.348,"text":"主席給我一點時間讓主任講清楚好不好好那個跟委員報告委員一開始從食安法的修法開始那事實上這個是一個它是一個非法行為就是說我們如果從正規的業者應該用食品"},{"start":581.144,"end":600.962,"text":"及的食品添加物的雙氧水來做的時候是在我們的納管之中在這個案子裡面大概我們看到有幾個盲點就是說我們先前沒有注意到主任我希望你不要用盲點兩個字好不好"},{"start":601.562,"end":627.178,"text":"你應該直接了當講說這個哪一個環節是不應該會這樣發生的我希望我們就直接坦承了好不好謝謝對 其實從今天上午到現在有相當多討論第一個就是它在這個畜牧之後到食品的銜接的權責然後它業別一樣是很特別然後第二個它既然有食品"},{"start":629.059,"end":655.554,"text":"這個從事食品加工的行為然後他沒有去食品業者去登錄然後我們在原有的這樣的他為什麼他為什麼他為什麼沒有去登錄因為他為什麼到這事情發生之後才知道他沒有去登錄對這個這家公司開多久了你們掌握他這家公司開多久了上午的商登大概是一二十年的百威他五百萬的那個"},{"start":657.827,"end":682.622,"text":"資本額 對然後那我們初步的了解是他認為他是屬農方在管理在那個屠宰場裡面所以屠宰場就是農方但事實上他的業他的從業的行為是在跟食品就等於分分切處理那一塊了所以我們其實就會對這一塊在介於農方跟衛方間的兩邊都"},{"start":685.091,"end":704.768,"text":"會未來共同去管理那至於剛剛先不要講未來我們先講說這家公司我這邊寫的是核准設立的日期是102年最後核准變更日期是113年就是這樣的數據應該不會 trauma 對不對不管怎樣他就是一個叫做他的名稱叫做百威食品"},{"start":705.709,"end":722.683,"text":"有限公司對那我們一樣追五年嘛這五年他到底他到底進了多少的這個工業用的這個雙氧水嘛為什麼這件事情他是食品公司啊他進了這麼多的工業用的雙氧水"},{"start":724.517,"end":752.448,"text":"你們剛剛還在講說雙空水有分食用跟工業用他就是禁工業用啊工業用的在現在的狀況是沒有納入環境部的這個關注化學所以我們現在第一步就要把他這個請環境部納到他的這個關注化學他沒有納入到關注的化學物質的情況之下他是又是一家食品有限公司他這五年到底進了多少工業用的"},{"start":753.608,"end":775.068,"text":"這個雙氧水怎麼你們通通不知道食安五環是這樣嗎食安五環是一定要關注的化學物質你們才有辦法勾結的到嗎是這樣嗎你真的要很慎重很專業的回答我的問題喔我剛剛在主席台我就已經提醒你們今天為什麼要辦這個專案報告"},{"start":778.024,"end":802.68,"text":"我們如果不清楚 我不會這樣講啦我希望我們把事情就講清楚因為已經有人講說你們瀆職了啊你們內省通外鬼 外鬼通內省我是不想再講這些話那個現行的情況確實我們沒有掌握這個怎麼會沒有掌握怎麼會有這樣的落實沒有掌握到"},{"start":804.622,"end":828.764,"text":"因為只有關注化學物質才要去化學雲申報是然後因為他並沒有列進去所以一家食品有限公司他只要他進的都不是關注的化學物質他這五年進了已經完全不合乎常理的情況之下來供應這個食品加工廠他自己本身的廠廠去做"},{"start":829.628,"end":857.988,"text":"什麼樣的情況去調配或是加入或是添加我們通通管不到只因為它不叫做關注的化學物質所以我們食安辦我們FDA我們環境部通通管不到是這樣嗎我們當時修法有辦法修到讓你可以今天來對委會講說這就是盲點這就是修法上的遺漏之處你現在要答呼我是這樣嗎"},{"start":859.69,"end":888.982,"text":"你對過去的100年那第8屆第9屆的委員你要講說你們修法就是很兩光啊今天才會發生這樣的事情啊他根本不能夠用那如果他進了這一類的這一個非實天的第8屆說楊耀文已經來了喔他有參與修法那個他要說明他是怎麼樣的用途是在洗地板的或者是環境用途特別的用途要跟誰說明"},{"start":891.018,"end":915.427,"text":"他自己就要寫記錄然後跟集合的時候就要可以解釋出來一般的時候會有地方的這個衛生局然後那定期如果排專案的時候會有這個跨單位的去聯機所以地方政府有問題還是你不好意思說"},{"start":917.071,"end":941.977,"text":"還是地方政府跟FDA南區的都有問題你也不好意思說你是食安辦的主任你有什麼好不好意思說的因為實際狀況因為他沒有登錄所以很可能會在名單之外所以這個得要緊迫的要把這個洞補上我實在因為這個講下去時間用很多啦後面還有兩個位委員"},{"start":944.53,"end":964.883,"text":"昨天你剛答覆我第一句話 我覺得食安辦已經不見了我已經把結論寫出來了環境部不管 衛福部不吃然後就創造台灣成千上萬個無辜的消費者因為每天都要吃這些東西"},{"start":967.523,"end":991.519,"text":"最後我再講部長可能底下提供給你訊息的你要用可能要小心一點過去5年355件花了2500多萬然後這一件花了5400萬要給他破產我覺得這件事情這個業者還沒有破產我們的食安班跟食藥署就已經破產了"},{"start":994.98,"end":1022.677,"text":"你要跟我講說這一件是故意的 所以就重罰5400萬355件 花了2500多萬 通通不是故意的是這樣嗎2500多萬除以355件 平均一件7萬你這一件叫做故意的所以就是你平均裁罰在五年委婉食品相關的法律的這些業者高於幾倍呢 770倍了"},{"start":1028.854,"end":1057.83,"text":"你們覺得在過嗎所以我再問下去再提醒剛剛主任才講到第一個環節而已喔後面還有很多這邊都留下一些歷史紀錄不管是FDA不管是地方政府不管是新北台北台南高雄等等等只要稽查"},{"start":1059.561,"end":1082.611,"text":"稽查相關視頻過期啊你們就雷力風行到什麼程度了這些事情一個大腸每天台灣消費者在很多面向都必須要實用到你們可以6月被接受檢舉之後拖到10月你才大張旗鼓的有減掉 減減掉大大大七個單位六七個單位"},{"start":1084.781,"end":1103.532,"text":"去做 去做 去做稽查然後才 才 才封存的一千兩百多公斤而已三個多月從六月被檢舉我們都不要再抓了我們從六月開始你們受以檢舉那個時候這家公司又製造的 又"},{"start":1104.293,"end":1128.11,"text":"又加入了公用的雙氧水每天多少量每天出到什麼地方去總共一直到被你們封存之後這組組將近一百多天請把數據公布給大家知道請把數據公布給大家知道然後相關的人員必須要負起什麼樣的責任要不要連跟你們一起去的減掉"},{"start":1130.03,"end":1158.375,"text":"檢察官一併辦這裡面到底涉及多少的隱匿不報涉及多少的工人該作為而不作為就獨持要不要一併辦請這個禮拜請這個禮拜把相關的一些調查報告是不是給未還委員會我禮拜四還是可以變更議程不可能等到你們一個月"},{"start":1160.402,"end":1168.196,"text":"請主任 署長 還有部長來正視這個事情是好 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝劉建國稍微的發言謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時50分）謝謝主席。有請食安辦許主任還有姜署長。部長，你歇一下沒關係。"],["主席：請食安辦、姜署長。"],["許主任輔：召委好。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：我希望我跟主任、署長的對話，也請部長聽看看。部長，我們在修食安法的時候，那時你應該是醫事司司長，100年的時候。主任跟姜署長應該都有這樣的印象，不過當時你們都還沒有來，從100年的時候什麼地溝油、毒奶粉，其中還有一個是工業用的、某某什麼樣的一個原料，它基本上也流用到很大的食品廠裡面做為添加物。所以從100年的時候一直修、修、修，應該修了將近7次到8次，就是要讓食安法更臻完備，也建立起臺灣消費者對政府的信心；除此之外，還讓所有的業者有所遵循，不要再產生這麼大的食安危機。","所以今天才會特別召開這樣的一個專案報告，我要接續剛剛王正旭委員還有廖偉翔召委的垂詢，剛剛主任回答是1個月的時間，但如果再給你1個月時間，食安法可能又要再重來、大修了。剛剛聽到針對蘇清泉召委那個臨時提案，部長跟姜署長的回應，目前我們已經有封存的，剛剛署長講是好像2萬多噸，後來部長趕快把麥克風搶過來說是一千兩百多公斤。然後從這家不肖廠家已經分送到中下游廠家的，基本上應該有扣了兩千多斤起來，對不對？但是已經出去的有七、八百公斤左右，這個數字才正確嘛！但是我會很驚訝，因為署長就坐在部長旁邊，為什麼你們兩個講的數據是天南地北？"],["姜署長至剛：這個是我的錯，因為腦袋……"],["劉委員建國：今天是專案報告。"],["姜署長至剛：抱歉、抱歉。"],["劉委員建國：署長，今天是專案報告，你們的兩份專案報告基本上很多數據該凸顯出來的，通通沒有。你們自己回去看你們的專案報告是非常非常……我實在不願意講這些話，這已經藐視到衛環委員會所有的委員，也藐視臺灣的消費者。剛剛林委員講那些話，坦白講，你如果還不覺得那是一個非常重的話……其實對於姜署長來講是一個很大的挑戰跟諷刺了。我們都看好姜署長就任之後，應該對於整個不管是食品，不管是藥物會有很多革新的積極作為，所以怎麼會在你任內發生這麼嚴重的事情？他已經用到怠惰、瀆職、內神通外鬼還是外神通內鬼！各位剛剛都在場嘛！都有聽到這些話，那你們怎麼還會在臨時提案的時候又把數據講錯？如果要再追下去，這些數據是這些而已嗎？","我再簡單講，我實在是很想再聽許主任講這個事情怎麼會發生、怎麼可能這樣發生，怎麼發生之後整個處理的SOP是這個樣子？到今天在委員會對所有委員做出的報告又是這個樣子？連剛剛你們答復王委員的那個內容，你們覺得這樣講得過去？","我要簡單講，當時因為很多的面向與原因，所以才會在這個委員會一直修、一直修、一直修！一部法律修得跟道路交通處罰條例一模一樣，修不完、修不停，修到最後大家才覺得臺灣的食安已經往前邁進一大步。而今天，回過頭來看，發生這件事情，6月初被檢舉，到10月才有這樣的動作。然後你們剛剛答復的是要會同保七總隊，你跟我講，剛剛部長答復委員的相關問題時說，這5年總共告發三百五十幾件，罰了兩千多萬，對不對？好，這5年罰了兩千多萬、有三百多件，跟這一件雷同的、跟這件的樣態差不多的，有需要到6月收到檢舉，10月初才擴大檢警調，動員相關單位去做處理嗎？我隨便都可以列舉，等一下我的資料裡面就會顯示出來，有拖這麼久嗎？有需要這麼做嗎？這個是你們原有的SOP啊！還是換了姜署長之後SOP改了？所以我希望在委員會，你們就很坦誠、很實際地把狀況講清楚，這個事情怎麼還可能讓你花1個月的時間去做什麼樣的調整跟修正！","部長，新官上任三把火，你該立威就該要立威了！畢竟你也當過衛福部次長，所以你去review一下這整個過程，真的問題大到很難想像。","我再簡單提醒兩件事情。這家公司營業項目一大堆，我們一樣算5年就好，他進的工業用雙氧水進了多少量？它不是關注的化學物質，但是這一個化學物質一直流向這家公司，這家公司林林總總登記的多數、通通是在做茶葉、菸酒、食品、農產、畜產、水產、其他農畜產品還有飼料，以及食品、什貨、飲料、零售業，太多太多的項目通通跟食品有關係。這5年這家公司進了多少工業用雙氧水？我們的政府不管是環境部的毒化署，現在改為化學署，包括衛福部FDA，通通不知道、通通沒有掌握，還需要經過人家檢舉，然後現在說要1個月時間來做相關的調整、還是處理或怎麼樣！這個你們說得過去？你剛剛說的封存、查扣的這些，這些是你們現在有扣的，那再往前推，還有其他廠家類似像這樣的，大腸用在什麼樣的食物上，主任，你知道吧？不是只有臺灣的特色小吃叫做大腸麵線，他用了幾項，每天臺灣的國人幾乎通通要吃到喔！大腸麵線不一定大家每天都會吃，而早餐有一個叫做什麼？大腸豬血湯，吃得到嗎？會嘛！火鍋店的主要食材，大腸是不是很重要的？"],["許主任輔：麻辣的。"],["劉委員建國：對，然後還有什麼？你可以講大項、講給我聽聽有幾項。我時間到了，這麼快。"],["許主任輔：對，滷味、麻辣、燒烤各種的其實……"],["劉委員建國：對，炸肥腸、薑絲炒大腸、肥腸茄煲，我剛剛在底下就寫了11項，不只啊！還有！被檢舉、被你們查獲的這個廠家百威，流入到這些店面、餐廳、火鍋店、小吃店、串燒店的，每天到底有多少量？查獲之前這5年，我們就抓這5年就好了。","主席，給我一點時間，讓主任講清楚，好不好？很嚴重。"],["許主任輔：跟委員報告，委員從食安法的修法開始講，事實上它是一個非法行為，如果是正規的業者，應該用食品級的食品添加物雙氧水來做，那是在我們的納管之中。但在這一個案子裡面，我們大概看到幾個盲點，就是我們先前沒有注意到，我們會儘速……"],["劉委員建國：主任，我希望你不要用「盲點」兩個字，好不好？你應該直接了當說哪一個環節不應該這樣發生，我希望就直接坦承，好不好？謝謝。"],["許主任輔：好。其實從今天上午到現在有相當多討論，第一，在畜牧之後到食品銜接的權責問題，然後他的業別一樣是很特別。第二，他既然有從事食品加工行為，卻沒有食品業者的登錄，我們在原有的……"],["劉委員建國：為什麼沒有登錄？為什麼到這個事情發生之後，你們才知道他沒有登錄？這家公司開多久了？你們掌握這家公司開多久了？"],["許主任輔：上午的商登資料大概是一、二十年的百威，有500萬資本額，根據我們初步了解，他認為是屬農方管理，因為是在屠宰場裡面，而屠宰場就是農方管理，但事實上他從業的行為跟食品有關，等於是分切處理的那一塊，所以針對介於農方跟衛方間的這一塊，未來我們兩邊會共同管理。至於剛剛委員……"],["劉委員建國：先不要講未來，我們先講這家公司，我這邊資料寫的核准設立日期是102年，最後核准變更日期是113年，這個數據應該不會錯，對不對？不管怎樣，它的名稱就叫做百威食品有限公司，我們一樣追5年，這5年到底進了多少工業用的雙氧水？它是食品公司，進了這麼多工業用的雙氧水，你剛剛還說雙氧水有分食用跟工業用，它就是進工業用的啊！"],["許主任輔：工業用的，目前的狀況是沒有納入環境部關注化學物質，所以現在第一步就是要請環境部把它納入關注化學物質裡。"],["劉委員建國：在沒有納入關注化學物質的情況下，它是一家食品有限公司，這5年到底進了多少工業用的雙氧水，怎麼你們通通不知道？食安五環是這樣嗎？食安五環是一定要關注化學物質，你們才有辦法勾稽得到嗎？是這樣嗎？主任，你真的要很慎重、很專業的回答我的問題。"],["許主任輔：我了解……"],["劉委員建國：剛剛在主席台我就已經提醒你們，今天為什麼要辦這個專案報告？我如果不清楚，不會這樣講，我希望大家就是把事情講清楚，因為已經有人說你們瀆職了，是內神通外鬼、外鬼通內神！我實在不想再講這些話。"],["許主任輔：現行的情況，確實我們沒有掌握這個……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼會沒有掌握？怎麼會有這樣的lose而沒有掌握到？"],["許主任輔：因為只有關注化學物質才要去化學雲申報，但它並沒有列進去……"],["劉委員建國：所以一家食品有限公司只要進的不是關注化學物質，在完全不合乎常理的情況下，這5年進了這麼多工業用雙氧水來供應食品加工廠，然後去做什麼樣的調配、加入或添加，我們通通管不到，只因為它不叫做「關注化學物質」，所以食安辦、FDA、環境部通通管不到，是這樣嗎？我們當初修法，有辦法修到讓你今天可以對委員會說這就是盲點、這就是修法上的遺漏之處！你現在要答復我是這樣嗎？你要對過去第8屆、第9屆一百多個委員說因為你們修法很兩光，所以今天才會發生這樣的事情？"],["許主任輔：那根本不能夠用，如果他進了這一類非食添的……"],["劉委員建國：第8屆的時候，楊曜委員已經來了，他有參與修法喔！"],["許主任輔：他要說明它是什麼樣的用途，是要洗地板、環境用或是有特別用途。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！要跟誰說明？"],["許主任輔：他自己就要寫紀錄，然後稽核的時候，就可以解釋出來……"],["劉委員建國：誰稽核？"],["許主任輔：一般會有地方衛生局，然後定期排專案的時候，會有跨單位聯稽。"],["劉委員建國：是，所以地方政府有問題？"],["許主任輔：嗯……"],["劉委員建國：你不好意思說？還是地方政府跟南區FDA都有問題？你也不好意思說？你是食安辦主任，有什麼好不好意思說的？"],["許主任輔：實際狀況是因為沒有登錄，所以很有可能會在名單之外，我們應該儘速把這個洞補上。"],["劉委員建國：這個再講下去時間會用很多，後面還有兩位委員要質詢。主任，你剛剛答復我的第一句話，就讓我覺得食安辦已經不見了，我已經把結論寫出來了：環境部不管，衛福部不知，然後創造了臺灣成千上萬個無辜的消費者，因為每天都要吃這些東西！","最後我要再講，部長，幕僚提供給你的訊息，你使用時可能要小心一點，過去5年有355件，罰了兩千五百多萬，然後這一件罰了5,400萬，要讓他破產。我覺得這件事情，這個業者還沒有破產，食安辦跟食藥署就已經破產了！你跟我講這一件是故意的，所以重罰5,400萬，難道罰了兩千五百多萬的355件，通通不是故意的？是這樣嗎？兩千五百多萬除以355件，平均一件7萬，這一件叫做故意的，所以你的裁罰就比近5年違反食品相關法律案件的平均裁罰高達770倍，你覺得交代得過去嗎？我要提醒你們，剛剛主任才講到第一個環節而已，後面還有很多，這邊都有留下一些歷史紀錄，不管是FDA，不管是地方政府，不管是新北、臺北、臺南、高雄等等，只要稽查相關食品過期問題，你們就雷厲風行到什麼程度。而這件事情，一個大廠，臺灣消費者每天在很多面向都會食用到的食品，你們可以6月接到檢舉之後，拖到10月才大張旗鼓的由檢、警、調等6、7個單位去稽查，然後才封存一千兩百多公斤而已。3個多月時間，6月被檢舉，你們沒有去抓，從6月開始受理檢舉之後，這家公司又製造、加入的工業用雙氧水，每天多少量、出貨到什麼地方，一直到被你們封存，這足足將近一百多天時間，請把數據公布給大家知道，然後相關人員必須要負起什麼樣的責任，要不要連跟你們一起去查的檢、調、檢察官一併辦？這裡面到底涉及多少的隱匿不報、涉及多少的公務員該作為而不作為？這就是瀆職，要不要一併辦？請在這個禮拜把相關的調查報告提供給衛環委員會，我禮拜四還是可以變更議程，不可能等你們一個月，請主任、署長，還有部長正視這個事情。"],["許主任輔：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國召委的發言，也謝謝許主任的回應。","下一位我們請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位請葉元之委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","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只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊 都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人 還遠遠不足嘛"},{"start":60.051,"end":88.03,"text":"那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那"},{"start":88.65,"end":117.75,"text":"所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起啊你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者嘛對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象"},{"start":118.93,"end":143.389,"text":"然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好 跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對 就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個模組對 用邊境的部分來"},{"start":146.671,"end":172.756,"text":"協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣"},{"start":173.536,"end":195.009,"text":"對 因為本學想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本學要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對"},{"start":197.73,"end":221.48,"text":"好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金"},{"start":225.942,"end":251.627,"text":"跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標所以是很細的指標我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的或是他要聘人"},{"start":253.448,"end":268.902,"text":"那請這個會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低"},{"start":270.483,"end":298.073,"text":"3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻現在我們要逐步的把它往下"},{"start":298.553,"end":320.255,"text":"那等於是讓這個我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者啊你這樣子你的這個精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置"},{"start":320.996,"end":336.945,"text":"那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據"},{"start":338.266,"end":359.808,"text":"那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣喔那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案五項的稽查專案喔那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎"},{"start":362.21,"end":390.199,"text":"那經該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去積查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終積查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP"},{"start":392.06,"end":410.261,"text":"那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升"},{"start":410.922,"end":424.769,"text":"他的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的嗎這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這"},{"start":426.05,"end":448.119,"text":"所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的 剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些"},{"start":449.94,"end":469.209,"text":"風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對 這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有再增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數"},{"start":471.63,"end":495.662,"text":"所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家就你自己只看了17家好這部分要請署長"},{"start":497.664,"end":512.538,"text":"把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的 一定會的 謝謝那針對這一次的獨大廠的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度"},{"start":513.463,"end":531.815,"text":"那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零"},{"start":533.456,"end":552.65,"text":"好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善"},{"start":554.729,"end":579.522,"text":"委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的"},{"start":580.242,"end":598.116,"text":"的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的"},{"start":599.147,"end":624.954,"text":"那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公司協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分是公衛師的部分因為公衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議"},{"start":625.794,"end":643.784,"text":"那至於前面的所以有在演繹嗎是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼"},{"start":647.543,"end":672.735,"text":"目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早的納入一些協助好 那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件 我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下"},{"start":673.675,"end":688.756,"text":"在百味公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嗎但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好"},{"start":690.03,"end":704.99,"text":"那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的"},{"start":705.868,"end":729.74,"text":"我們其實在6月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢 實際上行政稽查是定在7月14號中間其實在保期減掉的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是7月3號7月初的時候所以你們6月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以"},{"start":730.66,"end":750.036,"text":"那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討"},{"start":750.737,"end":775.653,"text":"對 因為我就是要說 你剛剛有說這空白集體人有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的 而且這是推卸責任的你說一定要讓檢調掉 那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候 哇 已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他 難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法 請這部分要請部長積極主動"},{"start":778.175,"end":795.346,"text":"跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲著我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況"},{"start":796.827,"end":818.979,"text":"再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大腸或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對"},{"start":819.899,"end":838.156,"text":"所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣"},{"start":841.821,"end":867.798,"text":"這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是他是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會跟密切的來是署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現了其實他這件事情的核心其實是"},{"start":868.658,"end":887.885,"text":"可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對"},{"start":889.105,"end":905.502,"text":"那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服喔所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏好那這部分邀請我們食安辦我們食安辦主任喔"},{"start":907.378,"end":921.769,"text":"所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題"},{"start":923.79,"end":947.628,"text":"所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物"},{"start":948.588,"end":963.973,"text":"就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對 所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會"},{"start":964.753,"end":983.827,"text":"就是剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以這個你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時多少時間"},{"start":985.908,"end":1000.204,"text":"我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說"},{"start":1001.145,"end":1022.534,"text":"這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本很低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1022,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時32分）謝謝主席。請部長還有署長。"],["主席：請部長還有署長。"],["石部長崇良：召委好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。想要請教一下，食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人？對不對？但每年有超過大概76萬批進口食品的稽核需求存在，所以以目前的總數量來講，就已經是超過負荷了。在地方衛生局方面，食藥署申請行政院的計畫，所以你們於114年補助地方政府衛生局的稽查人力是45人，但如果22個縣市都平均分配的情況之下，每一個縣市大概就只增加2個人，還遠遠不足嘛！針對地方稽查量能不足的問題，也可以理解是員額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加，但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題。因此也想要問部長，是不是能夠以人口，或大宗食品產品，或者是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求？是不是應該這樣？而不是用均分的方式，可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力，這個部分提供你思考，等一下再來回應。","另外，食藥署近期也公告，明年起食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2,000萬以上未達3,000萬的業者，對不對？未來可能還會再降，因為要擴大查核的對象。這個部分本席認為很棒，也樂觀其成。但是用現實面來講，現在的人力都已經不足了，要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象？而且要確保擴大了監管而不會有稀釋現有稽查量能的問題；要怎麼樣更加精準才可以稽查到？不然永遠用不夠。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當然，我們分成兩邊，如果是邊境查驗的部分，現在導入了AI，就是用人工智慧去……"],["廖委員偉翔：逾期食品偵測的模組。"],["石部長崇良：對，用邊境的部分來協助人力上不足的問題，更精準地做分批抽驗。至於剛剛委員提到的地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：地方人力的分配問題。"],["石部長崇良：對，人力的分配確實也是按照人口分4組，比如臺北、新北是屬於第1組，六都就是第1組，因為人口數比較多……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以是用風險導向做人力的配置，不是均分的問題。"],["石部長崇良：對，還有以專案稽核的件數去分配。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席想要凸顯的重點就是人力永遠不足，所以一定要想辦法，包含你說的導入AI也好，或者是人力怎麼讓它風險導向精準地分配，讓資源的分布更加精準，這是本席要提醒的。","另外還有一個問題，就是行政院補助地方的「113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫」高達10億，對不對？但是沒有強制要求各縣市建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標，也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的，我們要怎麼看這10億花下去，到底用在哪裡？成果如何？報告內容也沒有說明，就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價這筆經費的投入成果，所以也想要請問一下食安辦。"],["許主任輔：跟委員報告，這個10億元裡面分一半、一半，事實上各部會都有上百項指標，不會是您講的沒指標，是很細的指標。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為報告裡面沒有看到這個指標……"],["許主任輔：對，是、是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們的指標是什麼？"],["許主任輔：會議後提供。就是KPI，如要稽核幾個項目、幾人次，來達到我們所要求的，然後每個部會給的，或是它要聘人……"],["廖委員偉翔：請會後提供指標給我，因為目前的報告沒有看到，畢竟這個預算用在哪裡？成效到底是什麼？這個部分很重要。"],["許主任輔：好的。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就是剛剛我們也有討論……"],["石部長崇良：剛剛委員還有指教說我們把資本額降低，從3,000萬降到2,000萬，逐年地降低，這個部分會牽涉到廠商應負擔的責任。就是過去在3,000萬以上的，一方面要自行建立它的檢驗量能，同時也要有外部的稽核、第三方的查證，所以它的責任比較高。我們過去是用3,000萬作為門檻……"],["廖委員偉翔：然後現在是2,000萬到3,000萬嘛！"],["石部長崇良：現在我們要逐步地把它往下降，等於是讓三級品管裡面，第一級跟第二級的適用對象可以更擴大。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為我看了一下數據，大概是會增加三千多家業者啦！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣子關於精準方面，或者是查驗工作的負荷量就會增大，所以這個部分也要精準地安排一下你們的配置。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：食藥署建置的逾期食品偵測模組，也耗資近2,800萬，是藉由收集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統等國際食安資料庫數據，也結合國內食品雲等資料，進行大數據的分析，看起來就是所謂的AI，很厲害的樣子。對於高風險產品進行監控，該署又配合「112年中秋複合式專案」等5項稽查專案，用該模組算出了77家潛在風險業者，對不對？經該署的查核，就是你們查到的結果，實際僅稽查了17家！也就是說用這麼複雜的系統找出77家潛在風險業者，可是只去查了17家，只到這個清單的三成。這個利用率應該有待加強，而且最終稽查出來的結果，僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範，就是GHP，尚無業者使用或者儲存逾期食品情事。但同期間，你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者逾期食品的違規案件數達到73家，所以顯示什麼？顯示現在這套系統要怎麼樣提升它的精準度？以及有沒有把這些廠家都查完，才知道現在監測的這些數據，或者是模組產出來的清單是精準的嘛！這部分可不可以請署長回答一下？"],["姜署長至剛：委員，所有數字都非常地精準。面對我們做高度精準的抽驗評估之後，最後稽查了17家以及常態性的部分。所以對於精準的專案抽查，尤其中秋節這種專案，其實就有常規性地做一些抽查。剛才講的77家其實是過去有一些風險的，我們就會把它先跳出來，所以我剛才提到77家裡面只去了17家，比例是不足的，未來我們要把這部分補足，這是必要的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，這是必要的，而且你也才知道這些數據是可以調整的，不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎？有沒有再增加國內的參數？應該也有吧？"],["姜署長至剛：國內參數也是同時在進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數，如果沒有去執行到位，不會精準的知道結果到底好不好、有沒有要調整。我覺得善用科技是對的，因為人力不足，可是你用了之後要不斷的滾動檢討，不要說你產出了77家，結果你自己只看了17家！這部分要請署長把這個事情做完善，然後重新檢討你的工具可不可以改善。"],["姜署長至剛：是的，一定會的，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：針對這一次毒大腸的事件，其實也有公衛學者呼籲，推動食安簽證制度，納入食品技師跟公共衛生師。根據工程會的各科職業技師人數統計，截至112年領有食品科技證書的人數是2,601人，可是設立的事務所執業人數和受聘之執業人數是0；113年的時候有執照者是2,686人，實際執業的只有15人。即便有這麼多的人力潛力，但是食藥署回應說沒有推動食安簽證制度的考量，這個部分是基於什麼樣的評估？還是你們還沒有評估完善？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步說明。因為在食安法規制之下的三級品管，我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才、專職的人才，在食品工廠居於衛生管理的人員是第一個階層，除此之外，對於HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師證照，其實都已經有一定的制度在。所以我們剛才提到的是監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟第二級品管、第三方的驗證，確保食安等等，以及所謂政府的三級品管，其實它架構上是一致的，我們研議的是讓這種品管的方式能夠從內部到外部公私協力、自主規制的作法去思考。但特別的一部分是公衛師的部分，因為我們看到公衛師在現在的食品中毒事件中，對於調查跟釐清真相有他的角色，所以，我們進一步去研議這部分。至於前面的……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以有在研議嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為我也要表達的是，的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計，可能還包含法規的層面，以及你說的驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任，我的意思只是問你們是不是有在研議這個方向？你們認為目前的結論是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：有的，目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在食中裡面所謂公衛師的一個想法，希望能夠進一步研議，及早納入一些協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，署長，這部分請你們去思考要怎麼運用這些專業人力，不要讓他有個證書擺在那裡然後又不能用。","另外，回頭討論本次的事件。我想要問一下百威公司在非登不可登錄系統的登記地點在臺北市寧夏路，至於工廠部分本來也規定應該要登錄，但是這部分查不到，所以他在工廠登記上面是不是沒有？"],["姜署長至剛：是的，他沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：那他有沒有HACCP認證？"],["姜署長至剛：也沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛有委員質詢，我也要再追問，毒大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉，檢調7月份開始進行調查，我想要請問一下，食藥署何時才掌握的？"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實在6月接到檢舉之後，就開始啟動了。我們本來的行政處置，事實上行政稽查是訂在7月14號，在保七、檢調最後確定成案的時候我記得是7月3號。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們6月其實就掌握了？"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實就已經有掌握了。針對這一點，其實部長有特別指示，因為以衛福部食藥署……"],["廖委員偉翔：那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查？"],["姜署長至剛：我們評估起來，它的風險其實是重大且違規的，是明知故犯的情形。所以我們當初的想法是，行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱，但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分作進一步的檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我就是要說你剛剛有說這空白幾天怕打草驚蛇，但我認為這樣的說法是不對的，而且這是推卸責任的。你說一定要讓檢調調查，那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功？再者，在你們沒有去調查的時候，已經一堆人吃下肚了，你難道是真的要等到它被起訴了，你才阻止這件事發生嗎？我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法，這部分要請部長積極主動，不要再……"],["石部長崇良：對，跟委員報告，我們會調整作法，不會只是為了配合檢調而延遲了我們該有的行政作為，因為還是要以國人的健康為優先。"],["廖委員偉翔：這部分也要實際的去了解一下到底中間有哪裡出了狀況。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：統整來看，其實還有一個很大的問題。就是現在屠宰體系規範其實是嚴格的，所以問題並非在於百威冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大廠或豬肉製品是什麼病死或斃死豬，因為豬肉品跟內臟出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄，而是食藥署，對不對？所以這也是這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據。合理推斷，就是百威向眾多屠宰場收購完之後，放在自己的倉儲裡面，然後要交貨前再去泡工業用雙氧水，讓它的賣相變得比較好，對嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這個廠實際的作業，據我們了解，它是在屠宰場旁邊的一個違章建築貨櫃屋裡來進行豬腸的處置，這些是沒有登錄的。所以在農業部跟我們對於食品安全的管理與加工部分，會密切的來去……"],["廖委員偉翔：署長，所以這裡就會有個問題出現，其實這件事情的核心可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用，如果不能透過源頭管理，就根本無法有效的調查。所以在源頭管理的部分，政府之前為了管控流入食品製程的化學物質流向，在105年建置了化學雲。但到113年的8月底都還沒有克服所謂的介接勞動部的化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統原始資料欄位的一些缺漏，這部分要請食安辦主任說明。這部分在審計部的報告中有被點出來，而且這是一個跨部會的問題，今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來，但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到化學品流入食品體系的問題，請問你們這個問題什麼時候要解決？"],["許主任輔：我們這禮拜就會安排會議討論，關鍵是在化學雲，我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類可能會在食品廠用的、非食添的物質納管，成為第四類的毒化物，就是風險物質管理，那它所有的運作、買賣，每一筆都要上網去登錄，這樣就會很有效的……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以簡單來講，這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題，食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色。"],["許主任輔：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛有委員在問，可是你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部的數據。我必須告訴主任，這是你的責任，你不可以推托。"],["許主任輔：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你本來就是隸屬行政院的。"],["許主任輔：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們打算什麼時候可以改善這個狀況？預估需要多少時間？"],["許主任輔：我一個月內把後續怎麼做的進程跟委員報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，然後在這個系統裡面各個部會應該要怎麼樣分工、怎麼樣串接好，大家統一去看，不要這邊一個資料、那邊一個資料，勾稽不起來。"],["許主任輔：好的，了解。"],["廖委員偉翔：最重要的就是，這件事情的核心關鍵在於工業級原物料流入食品加工，那很簡單，就是不肖業者嘛！因為成本低嘛！"],["許主任輔：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：這就是今天本席最重要的總結！這是食安辦的責任，你應該要把溯源、源頭管理的這些系統全部介接好，好不好？"],["許主任輔：好的，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：一個月內？"],["許主任輔：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔召委的發言，謝謝部長跟主任的回應。","下一位請顏寬恒委員發言，顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","下一位請劉建國召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164056","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc2ab10de7bf00678d85f90000f7f2f0ab54e55ddf1b168a31c5430e83854d74935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:31:44 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部長本期的問題跟我們今天召委其實類似我再follow一下因為剛剛他的這個新聞也有出來就是早上有質詢過所謂的烏山口水庫的這樣的一個光電板的部分那您這邊也有承諾就是說只要是地方政府沒有再核定的話將來是不會再允許任何的水庫來租借光電板使用那現在進行中也先暫緩是不是"},{"start":42.256,"end":56.156,"text":"第一关就是地方政府他必须同意地方政府通常同意之前他会跟居民做沟通这些做好以后才会送到我们水利署送到我们能源署来是"},{"start":57.396,"end":81.602,"text":"是送完能源署來好但是現在來那我請教部長我直接比較請教一下吳三頭水庫是因為現在有所謂的網路的影片大家才看到說怎麼會有這樣的一個清理方式雖然說我們第一時間有講是說他沒有使用藥水但難免大家會有疑慮嘛對不對那請教現在全台灣到底有多少水庫是上面有光電板已經核准五座五座那五座全都是民間開發來租用"},{"start":84.888,"end":108.974,"text":"大部分是由开发单位像说公务部门像我们经济部水利署也有在阿公店然后像乌山头水库是由嘉南农田水利分署这边在办理的都是由一般是由但它到底是公务部门还是那民间业者我们公务部门然后用抓标方式让民间进来做这个使用用权力的方式来做一些处理"},{"start":109.654,"end":129.646,"text":"所以其實在這個過程裡面變成是開發單位還是以公部門為主囉我們公部門甲方是公部門那如果說這樣的話剛剛有提到就是這個租約到期就要不續租那有沒有可能提前來執行完畢因為你是甲方嘛"},{"start":131.055,"end":147.28,"text":"叫烏山頭烏山頭因為這部分是農水署那邊我們請農業部因為烏山頭是農水署所以我們請農業部農水署對甲方是我們公部門是不是不是你們說清楚來你們說清楚"},{"start":151.59,"end":166.352,"text":"是土地租用報告委員因為農水署加囊管理處是水庫的一個管理機關那是由加囊管理處來跟業者來發報讓業者來承租"},{"start":167.344,"end":188.685,"text":"所以到底本席現在想要釐清的點我覺得這也是為什麼我們到目前為止大家一直說明不清楚就是說到底這個光電板是我們能源署這邊有相關的一個計畫讓業者這邊來設置那只是跟我們公部門來借土地就借這個水庫還是說我們置始置終是由水庫單位這邊來去做推動"},{"start":190.231,"end":206.145,"text":"報告委員當初是依據我們配合再生能源的一個政策還有經濟部的太陽光電兩年推動計畫來推動這些我都理解我現在直接講是說到底假方式假方式由加拿大當初招標是108年的時候那是水利會的時代"},{"start":206.645,"end":232.291,"text":"那後來的話在114年開始營運的時候那就是已經江南管理處了就是我們農水署江南管理處是那如果說真的對於民眾有疑慮其實我覺得說為什麼大家會覺得看到這個畫面然後再加上是說我們之前的颱風這個不管是光電板的破壞其實很顯然的以及很簡單的一個理由就是我們的能源政策到底有多麼的脆弱以及左至右處"},{"start":233.567,"end":256.318,"text":"就是說連水庫上面我們都必須要寸土寸金去增地然後去蓋這些所謂的光電板那光電板如果說有任何相關為什麼會有民眾的疑慮在國外是非常常見的我有看到國外的案例但是國外的案例其實它也有很多的地方其實它沒有說一定是水庫上面蓋因為這不一定是主流本期剛剛也特別查過相關的資料"},{"start":256.838,"end":281.955,"text":"但我們現在要問的是說為什麼會讓民眾會有這樣的疑慮就像昭偉剛剛質詢的時候也講到這一個水庫它其實灌溉的是我們整體相關不管是農用不管是相關民眾的生活所以說對於民眾對於水質的要求其實是很大的那結果上面居然有這個光電板有相關的這一些設施會讓大家會有疑慮水質一直在監控當中"},{"start":282.375,"end":305.633,"text":"好 那我請教部長監控部分能不能有一個即時來秀有沒有秀 有可以秀給民眾看嗎民眾隨時可以上網去來現在有嗎在官網裡面都有現在在台電的官網還是哪邊的官網我們在農田水利署的官網還有加拿大管理處的官網裡面我們都有公開隨時檢測的一個資訊"},{"start":308.277,"end":325.409,"text":"每多久檢測每多久檢視多久檢測我們是一年檢測五次廠商檢測兩次管理處檢測兩次本署檢測一次一年有五次的一個水質檢測一年五次所以平均的兩個月三個月才一次"},{"start":326.364,"end":342.82,"text":"的公告是不是對 我們就是檢測完的水質資料跟剛剛部長講的讓我們還以為是說是即時的一個讓大家能夠放心好像有點落差這個即時就是我們檢測完的資料我們會即時放在網站上面"},{"start":343.359,"end":365.344,"text":"我們每天都在喝水每天都在灌溉然後你跟我們講說三個月看一次這個清洗會不會清洗完之後他的這個不管是水質稀釋水質這個淨化有可能一兩個月之後他又他又已經過去了但是民眾的使用是每天的能不能加強"},{"start":368.644,"end":384.649,"text":"如果說現在這件事件已經讓民眾有疑慮了能不能加強更透明的每天是有基本檢驗的如果是引用的部分每天基本檢驗一劑是有完整檢驗那這個基本檢驗的一個部分能不能也上網及時讓"},{"start":387.23,"end":416.594,"text":"跟委員報告那個我們的每季的檢驗是在我們官網是有公告的對那每日的基本檢驗我們只是做記錄是操作人員只是做記錄部長所以沒有問題所以時間嘛那當然我是說其實我們都站在同一個陣線上來講希望讓民眾更安心如果說民眾真的有疑慮的話就是要資訊更公開透明那還有我還是強調就是說其實寸土寸金的情況為什麼你連腦筋動用在水庫上面"},{"start":416.914,"end":441.981,"text":"某種程度上就是真的寸土寸金嘛一味難求嘛然後我們能源左至右處嘛謝謝我們繼續努力但是部長我剛剛提出來的這個建議也請這邊經濟能源署相關部門能夠把它放在心上適時的公告給予民眾知的權利我講孟愷所講的我們剛剛其實在質詢的時候就已經要求說"},{"start":443.101,"end":459.334,"text":"你們馬上在我們這個會議完之後把我們包括飲用水的檢測在烏山頭這個區塊飲用水的檢測還有我們灌溉水的檢測全部拉出一個那個制式的一個網站當中"},{"start":461.335,"end":488.572,"text":"讓我們烏山頭所有的民眾有擔心的民眾可以直接而且我們的檢測基本上本身就已經有很多的一個檢測系統在裡面不是隨時放上去你這樣說怎麼會動輒說你是三個我要去檢測一次不是 我們整個監測系統是早就在那裡只是三個月公佈一次那現在我們就隨時公佈對 我覺得朝偉其實重點是多久更新一次隨時公佈多久更新"},{"start":489.372,"end":504.285,"text":"然後檢視讓大家能夠了解我們就是要求他隨時公佈因為他要先把那個檢測系統我們要求就是我們這一次烏山頭的飲用水還有我們的灌溉水全部自己拉出一個"},{"start":505.326,"end":527.041,"text":"不要是說我要去這個水利署才看得到你們的然後去農業部才看到你們的不要既然烏山頭這一次已經引發這麼多的疑慮了我們就把它拉到一個自視的平台針對大家如果對烏山頭水庫有疑慮的全部進到這裡就可以看到而且我們是隨時更新"},{"start":527.581,"end":542.823,"text":"趙薇 我建議一下因為剛剛有講到現在目前全台五座水庫上面是有光電板所以如果說真的要做比較全面的是應該連烏山頭水庫以及其他水庫能夠做適時的揭露資訊都應該要做揭露"},{"start":544.349,"end":570.587,"text":"我們現在因為烏山頭水庫現在是我們媒體的焦點我想現在我們先把烏山頭水庫先把它拉出來那其他四座的水庫陸續補上好不好陸續補上我們待會下去的時候烏山頭水庫先補上然後後續四座陸續補上拉出一個我們自治的一個平台好不好監控我們所有水庫光電板的水質問題謝謝"},{"start":575.838,"end":596.719,"text":"對沒錯就是先先用我們技術上可以先連結然後變成一個大家點進去就可以看到我們烏山頭水庫的一個水質狀況我們再去思考後續要怎麼再把其他的拉上補上好這個部分再麻煩那我們現在請葉元之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1384,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時31分）主席謝謝，麻煩有請經濟部龔部長。"],["主席：我們請部長，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，本席的問題其實跟我們今天召委是類似的，我再follow一下，因為剛剛新聞也有出來，就是早上有質詢過烏山頭水庫光電板的部分。您這邊也有承諾，就是只要地方政府沒有核定的話，將來不會再允許任何的水庫租借給光電板使用，現在進行中的也先暫緩，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：第一關就是地方政府他必須同意嘛，那地方政府通常同意之前，他會跟居民做溝通，這些做好以後才會送到我們能源署來。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，送到能源署來，好，但是現在……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，因為他如果沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，部長，我請教一下，烏山頭水庫是因為現在有所謂的網路影片，大家才看到說怎麼會有這樣的清理方式，雖然我們第一時間有講說他沒有使用藥水，但難免大家會有疑慮嘛，對不對？那請教，現在全臺灣到底有多少水庫上面已經有核准的光電板？"],["龔部長明鑫：5座。你說明一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：5座，那5座全都是民間開發來租用？"],["林署長元鵬：大部分是由開發單位，像是公務部門，像我們經濟部水利署也有在阿公店，然後像烏山頭水庫是由嘉南農田水利分署這邊在辦理的，一般是由公務……"],["洪委員孟楷：但他到底是公務部門還是民間業者？"],["林署長元鵬：我們公部門用招標的方式讓民間進來做使用，用權利的方式來做一些處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以其實在這個過程裡面變成開發單位還是以公部門為主囉？"],["林署長元鵬：我們的公部門是……"],["洪委員孟楷：甲方是公部門，如果這樣的話，剛剛有提到租約到期就不續租，那有沒有可能提前執行完畢？因為你是甲方嘛，像烏山頭……"],["李署長君禮：烏山頭，因為這部分是農水署那邊主管……"],["主席：我們請農業部，因為烏山頭是農水署，所以我們請農業部農水署。"],["洪委員孟楷：甲方是我們公部門，是不是？"],["主席：不是。你們說清楚，來，你們說清楚，是土地租用。"],["陳副署長衍源：報告委員，因為農水署嘉南管理處是水庫的管理機關，那是由嘉南管理處發包讓業者來承租。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以到底……本席現在想要釐清的點，我覺得這也是為什麼到目前為止大家一直說明不清楚，就是到底這個光電板是我們能源署這邊有相關的計畫，讓業者來設置，只是跟我們公部門來借土地，就是借這個水庫，還是說自始至終是由水庫單位這邊去推動？"],["陳副署長衍源：報告委員，當初我們是依據配合再生能源的政策，還有經濟部的太陽光電兩年推動計畫來推動的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，這些我都理解，我現在只是問到底甲方是……就是說所有權者……"],["陳副署長衍源：甲方是嘉南……當初招標是108年的時候，那是水利會的時代，後來在114年開始營運的時候，那就已經是嘉南管理處了，就是我們農水署嘉南管理處。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。如果真的民眾對此有疑慮，其實我覺得為什麼大家覺得看到這個畫面，然後再加上之前的颱風，不管是光電板的破壞，其實很顯然以及很簡單的一個理由就是，我們的能源政策到底有多麼的脆弱以及左支右絀？連水庫上面我們都必須要寸土寸金去徵地，然後去蓋這些光電板，那光電板如果說有任何相關……為什麼民眾會有疑慮？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，這個在國外是非常常見的，在國外很常見。"],["洪委員孟楷：我有看到國外的案例，但是國外的案例，其實也有很多的地方沒有一定要在水庫上面蓋，因為這不一定是主流，本席剛剛也特別查過相關的資料。但我們現在要問的是，為什麼會讓民眾有這樣疑慮？就像召委剛剛質詢的時候也講到，這一個水庫其實灌溉的是我們整體相關不管是農用，不管是民眾的生活，所以民眾對於水質的要求其實是很高的。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以我們會有監控。"],["洪委員孟楷：結果上面居然有光電板，有相關的這一些設施會讓大家有疑慮。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以水質一直在監控，水質一直在監控當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我請教部長，監控的部分能不能有一個即時來show……"],["龔部長明鑫：有，有顯示啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有show？可以show給民眾看嗎？民眾隨時可以上網去查看。"],["龔部長明鑫：可以啊！可以啊！可以啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：現在有嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：在官網裡面都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：在台電的官網還是哪邊的官網？。"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，在農田水利署的官網還有嘉南管理處的官網裡面，我們都有公開水質檢測的資訊。"],["洪委員孟楷：每多久顯示？多久檢測？"],["林署長元鵬：我們是一年檢測5次，其中廠商檢測2次，管理處檢測2次，本署檢測1次，一年有5次的水質檢測。"],["洪委員孟楷：一年5次？"],["林署長元鵬：一年5次。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以平均都兩個月、三個月才公告一次，是不是？"],["林署長元鵬：對，我們檢測完的水質資料就會呈現出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：這跟剛剛部長講的，讓我們還以為是即時的監控資料，讓大家能夠放心，好像有點落差。"],["林署長元鵬：這個「即時」就是我們檢測完的資料，我們會即時放在網站上面。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們每天都在喝水，每天都在灌溉，然後你跟我們講說要三個月看一次……"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會清洗完之後，不管是水質的稀釋、水質的淨化，有可能一、兩個月之後又沒有異常了，但是民眾是每天使用，能不能加強？如果現在這個事件已經讓民眾有疑慮了，能不能加強更透明的……"],["龔部長明鑫：如果是民眾……不是、不是，報告委員，每天是有基本檢驗的，如果是飲用的部分，每天都有基本檢驗，一季是有完整檢驗，也有公告……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那基本檢驗的部分，能不能也即時上網讓民眾得知？"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，我們每季的檢驗在我們的官網是有公告，那每日的基本檢驗，我們只是做紀錄，操作人員只是做紀錄，目前都……"],["主席：孟楷，時間到了。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，其實我們都是站在同一個陣線上，希望讓民眾更安心，如果民眾真的有疑慮的話，就是要資訊更公開透明。還有我還要強調的就是，為什麼你腦筋要動到水庫上面？某種程度上就是真的寸土寸金嘛，一位難求嘛，然後我們能源左支右絀嘛，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，因為2050我們要達到淨零，2050我們要達到淨零。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們繼續努力，但是部長，我剛剛提出來的建議，也請經濟部能源署相關部門能夠把它放在心上，適時的公告，給予民眾知的權利，好嗎？"],["主席：我想孟楷所講的，我們剛剛其實在質詢的時候就已經要求，在這個會議結束後，你們馬上把包括飲用水的檢測……在烏山頭這個區塊飲用水的檢測，還有灌溉水的檢測，全部拉出到一個制式的網站當中，讓我們烏山頭當地所有感覺擔心的民眾都可以直接查詢。而且我們的檢測，基本上本身就已經有很多檢測系統在那邊，不是隨時放上去，你這樣講人家會當作你是三個月去檢測一次，不是，我們整個監測系統早就在那裡，只是三個月公布一次，那現在我們就隨時公布……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，我覺得，召委，其實重點是多久更新一次啦！"],["主席：我們去調整一下，隨時公布，所以這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：多久更新？然後檢視，讓大家能夠了解嘛，對不對？"],["主席：我們就是要求他隨時公布，因為他要先把檢測系統……我們要求這一次烏山頭的飲用水、灌溉水全部自己拉出一個部分，不要說我要去水利署才看得到你們的，然後去農業部才看到他們的，不要這樣！既然烏山頭這一次已經引發這麼多的疑慮，就把它拉到一個制式的平臺，大家如果針對烏山頭水庫有疑慮，全部進到這裡就可以看到，而且我們是隨時更新。"],["洪委員孟楷：召委，我建議一下，因為剛剛有講到目前全臺灣5座水庫上面是有光電板，所以如果真的要做比較全面，應該是連烏山頭水庫以及其他水庫都能夠適時的揭露資訊。"],["主席：因為烏山頭水庫現在是媒體的焦點，我想現在我們先把烏山頭水庫拉出來，其他4座水庫陸續補上，好不好？待會下去的時候，烏山頭水庫先補上，後續4座陸續補上，拉出一個制式的平臺，好不好？監控所有水庫光電板的水質問題，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們先用hyperlink，因為要把它集合在……"],["主席：對，沒錯，我們技術上可以先連結，變成一個大家點進去就可以看到烏山頭水庫的水質狀況，我們再去思考後續要怎麼把其他的拉上、補上，這個部分再麻煩。","現在請葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","請陳瑩委員、陳瑩委員，陳瑩委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","現在登記發言的委員，除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員張嘉郡、蘇清泉、陳超明、沈伯洋所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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百威是完全沒有登錄的它是沒有登錄的它完全連登錄都沒登錄的那你們現在查有登錄的結果沒有登錄的才有問題啊 是不是"},{"start":132.242,"end":158.97,"text":"現在是不是這樣意思沒有登錄的意思就是說在我們的這個食安法裡面有規範你這個食品業者你都包含攤商你都應該去確認你的來源的合法性要來自你合法的來源所以你這樣子說你從下游去查但是你先剛才按照你所跟我說的你其實是去查那些已經有稅籍的然後與登錄不符的部分是不是事萬家"},{"start":159.85,"end":185.641,"text":"但是百威的狀況並不是這樣他違法使用工業的雙氧水然後去來就是說去來清洗這個豬大腸導致這樣子有食品安全疑慮的進到了所有的小吃的商家嘛對不對我們甚至還不知道進到哪一家我從新聞看也只知道說有著名的麵線而已啊那其他呢"},{"start":187.042,"end":205.714,"text":"這個案子是分成兩塊一個是本身他的登記他沒有他做這個加工可是他沒有去合法登記這個是一個問題第二個是在加工的過程使用了我們不允許的添加物就是這個工業用的這個雙氧水"},{"start":206.334,"end":223.382,"text":"那所以這個整個流向是清楚啦所有從他的帳部裡面流向我們都對外都已經清楚公佈主要流入市場的就是在台北市跟這個屏東這兩個市場的地方而已所以流向是清楚那我們的重點是第一個這一個"},{"start":225.799,"end":254.962,"text":"没有登录完整的这个业者是重罚的那当然也要提醒所有的这个整个食品链当中的所有的业者你都要去确认你的来源是合法不要去购买不明来源的货源这个也是有责任的那第二个就是我们透过这个追踪追溯的系统去把整个这个产制销整个链都能够建构起来"},{"start":255.422,"end":272.591,"text":"所以才能夠掌握這每一個地方都是來自於合法的這個業者所以這個是追蹤追溯的這個系統的建立那讓他更及時的話那就是做到電子化包含這個電子發票的開立跟電子登錄"},{"start":273.832,"end":303.36,"text":"可是我是說其實當然你剛才講的後端的就是一些登錄跟就是說登記不實的這部分當然是另外一個部分但是其實最重要的是就是說我們這一次發生這個食安問題最重要的部分在於它使用非法的這樣子的一個加工的這個東西那這個部分的我認為你們應該要全面性去清查這對於民眾現在時的安全是最重要的"},{"start":303.86,"end":331.272,"text":"那當然你們必須要了解像這樣子的工業用的雙氧水到底有多少用在食品的這個添加物裡面嘛是不是然後或者是用來相關處理食品的這樣子的一個程序裡面那這才是民眾目前最擔心也最擔憂的因為畢竟這都是銅板美食嘛那對於民眾可能日常都會接觸到的啊是不是"},{"start":332.172,"end":350.127,"text":"如果在現在食物價格高漲的情況下如果我們在平常使用的銅板美食那是一般庶民小民最常使用的都有這樣的疑慮我們衛福部就沒有辦法保障民眾食的安全"},{"start":351.388,"end":366.35,"text":"所以跟委員報告說我們馬上就採取了兩件事情第一件事情就是說所有市面上的這個大廠的產品都去加強湊驗看看有沒有這個雙氧水就是H2O2的殘留那目前有沒有"},{"start":366.57,"end":390.328,"text":"到目前查了起來都沒有已經查了一千多件了一千多件全國都查了那第二個呢是生產的工廠也進去加強茶廠那麼去確認他所使用有沒有使用到雙氧水那如果有使用到的是食品級的還是用工業級的所以這個也有抽查了1990家業者"},{"start":393.371,"end":408.967,"text":"所以这个是会不会你抽查的都是抽查到好的啊没有抽查到对啊没有就是全面性的查会不会都是抽查到好的不会我们都是全面性全国去去查了有在供应的这样"},{"start":409.868,"end":430.765,"text":"還有我想要問一下就是川普總統他說10月1號開始所有品牌藥跟專利藥開徵百分之百的關稅只有在美國設廠或者是動工的藥廠藥品可以免稅所以對於我們目前有214個進口的藥專利藥可能會受到波及"},{"start":436.349,"end":450.149,"text":"我想要请问我们任性特别条例有200亿要拨给健保基金来使用那这有没有办法确保民众用药安全还是因为你拨到健保基金是一个大水库你会不会把这200亿"},{"start":453.478,"end":467.302,"text":"你健保裡面還有很多事情要做嘛要改變嘛對不對那會不會用到別處那反而我們為了這個關稅因應所撥的這200億會不會被你拿去做別的使用"},{"start":467.682,"end":494.22,"text":"不会跟委员报告过去都还有这样的例子虽然川普总统有曾经宣布这样的事情可是到目前的法规我们都密切的在追踪还没有正式的文件正式的文件出来以他初步的说法主要是针对原厂药不是学民药所以学民药是排除在外那么他也排除了原料药"},{"start":495.421,"end":508.296,"text":"所以原料要的部分也沒在這個加徵的範圍裡面所以評估起來大概影響的程度就大幅的降低了所以大幅的降低那一邊200億一邊200億有那麼多是不是只是在補這個還是在補其他你健保的東西"},{"start":514.302,"end":535.219,"text":"專利期內的還是有可能受影響因為他的對象是針對那個原廠藥跟專利期內的那個藥所以還是有可能受影響但是我們因為他還沒有正式公佈正式的文件我們是密切的在注意那至於我們在特別條例裡面特別預算編的這個200億優先會使用在應用這個關稅萬一如果"},{"start":537.34,"end":564.931,"text":"造成這個藥品成本的上升可以來提高藥價像4月到現在我們也增加了200多項藥品的價格我們已經合出去已經提高了所以我們這一筆錢會優先應應在健保裡面的藥價調整因為我們的藥價不知道會發生什麼所以預備在那裡但是如果沒有用掉的還是在健保基金裡頭不會拿來做其他的用途"},{"start":565.191,"end":591.861,"text":"不是啦 我是說你健保基金裡面當然除了這個藥以外你還有其他的部分嘛 對不對不會啦 健保的基金都是使用在民眾的服務上面沒有其他的公務運算使用是不是就是特別多編然後來補你健保的缺口嘛 是不是健保的缺口也是用在這個民眾跟醫療服務單位的也不會是政府部門拿來自己用的"},{"start":592.591,"end":592.611,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（12時22分）謝謝主席。我想請部長。"],["主席：請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，我想請問一下，如果像剛才所有委員在質詢的，現在像百威這樣子的加工廠，經濟部有納管而沒有合法的，還有一些沒有納管也不合法的，到底在市面上還有多少？"],["石部長崇良：大概我們的作法會是這樣子處理，就是用它的稅籍跟食品業者的登錄，每年都會勾稽，去發現……"],["謝委員衣鳯：用業者的稅籍？"],["石部長崇良：對，稅籍跟食品業的登錄。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前稅籍加上食品業的登錄……"],["石部長崇良：兩邊登錄如果不一致，今年查察的結果大概有4萬家。"],["謝委員衣鳯：4萬家？"],["石部長崇良：71萬的食品廠中，大概有差不多4萬家不合；不合的部分我們會由各衛生局……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以有4萬家？"],["石部長崇良：對，會去查核，然後……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以目前爆的只是冰山一角，是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做進一步說明。4萬家是這樣，我現在做生意，所以先登錄了一些項次，但實際上是沒有營業，所以只要有不一樣的我們就把它挑出來，並不是說這4萬家都是有問題的，而是因為他申請的營業項目跟實際上不一樣，我們就會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以目前你們所宣稱的4萬家只是營業項目跟登錄有不一樣的部分，是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是到底有多少家，你們還不清楚？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員說明，這4萬家我們是責成衛生局逐家去查察，確立營業項目到底跟登記的能不能一致，如果沒有的話……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這4萬家跟目前百威的狀況一樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：不一樣。"],["姜署長至剛：不一樣，百威是完全沒有登錄。"],["謝委員衣鳯：它是沒有登錄的？"],["姜署長至剛：它是連登錄都沒登錄的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們現在查有登錄的，結果是沒有登錄的才有問題，是不是？現在是不是這樣的意思？"],["石部長崇良：沒有登錄的意思就是在我們的食安法裡面有規規範，食品業者包含攤商都應該去確認來源的合法性，要來自於合法的來源。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你這樣子說是你從下游去查？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是按照你剛才跟我說的，其實你是去查那些已經有稅籍的，然後與登錄不符的部分，是不是？所以是4萬家。但是百威的狀況並不是這樣，它違法使用工業雙氧水清洗豬大腸，導致有食品安全疑慮的食物進到所有小吃商家，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們甚至還不知道進到哪一家，我從新聞看也只知道有著名的麵線而已，那其他呢？"],["石部長崇良：這個案子是分成兩塊：一個是本身的登記，它做這個加工，可是沒有合法登記，這個是一個問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["石部長崇良：第二個是在加工的過程使用了我們不允許的添加物，也就是工業用的雙氧水。所以這整個流向是清楚的，所有它的帳簿裡面流向，我們對外都已經清楚公布，主要流入市場的就是臺北市跟屏東這兩個地方的市場而已，所以流向是清楚。","我們的重點是：第一個，沒有登錄完整的業者是重罰的。當然也要提醒整個食品鏈當中的所有業者，都要去確認來源是合法的，不要去購買不明來源的貨源，這個也是有責任的。第二個就是我們透過追蹤、追溯系統去把產、製、銷整個鏈都能夠建構起來，所以才能夠掌握每一個地方都是來自於合法的業者，這是追蹤、追溯系統的建立，要讓它更即時的話，那就是做到電子化，包含電子發票的開立跟電子登錄，這樣就會更即時。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，你剛才講的後端，就是登錄跟登記不實的當然是另外一個部分。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但其實最重要的就是，我們這一次發生這個食安問題最重要的部分是在於使用非法加工的東西，這個部分我認為你們應該要全面性去清查。"],["石部長崇良：有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於民眾現在食的安全是最重要的。"],["石部長崇良：有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：當然你們必須要了解像這樣子的工業用雙氧水到底有多少用在食品添加物裡面？是不是？或者是處理食品的相關程序，這才是民眾目前最擔心，也最擔憂的，畢竟這都是銅板美食，民眾可能日常都會接觸到，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在現在食物價格高漲的情況下，如果我們平常使用的銅板美食，那是一般庶民最常使用的，都有這樣子的疑慮，那衛福部就沒有辦法保障民眾食的安全啊！是不是？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，所以我們馬上就採取了兩件事情：第一件事情就是所有市面上的大腸產品都去加強抽驗，看看有沒有雙氧水（H2O2）的殘留？"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前有沒有？"],["石部長崇良：到目前查核起來都沒有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們查了幾個市場？"],["石部長崇良：已經查了一千多件。"],["謝委員衣鳯：一千多件？"],["石部長崇良：對，全國都查了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：都查了是不是？"],["石部長崇良：第二個是生產的工廠也進去加強查廠，去確認有沒有使用到雙氧水；如果有使用到的，是食品級的還是用工業級的？所以這個也抽查了1,990家業者，這個是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會你抽查的都是抽查到好的，有沒有抽查……"],["石部長崇良：沒有，就是全面性的查。"],["謝委員衣鳯：會不會都是抽查到好的？"],["石部長崇良：不會，我們都是全面性、全國去查有在供應的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有我想要問一下，川普總統說10月1號開始所有品牌藥跟專利藥開徵百分之百的關稅，只有在美國設廠或者是動工的藥廠，藥品可以免稅，所以我們目前有214個進口的專利藥可能會受到波及。我想要請問，韌性特別條例有200億要撥給健保基金使用，這有沒有辦法確保民眾用藥的安全？因為撥到健保基金是個大水庫，會不會把這200億……健保還有很多事情要做、要改變，對不對？會不會用到別處？為了因應關稅所撥的這200億，會不會反而被你拿去做別的使用，會不會？"],["石部長崇良：不會、不會，跟委員報告……"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去都還有這樣的例子。"],["石部長崇良：雖然川普總統曾經有宣布這樣的事情，目前的法規我們都密切地在追蹤，還沒有正式的文件出來。以他初步的說法，主要是針對原廠藥，不是學名藥，學名藥是排除在外；另外他也排除了原料藥，原料藥的部分也沒在加徵的範圍裡面。所以評估起來，影響的程度大概就大幅地降低了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：大幅度降低，但是你卻編了200億這麼多……"],["石部長崇良：但是對於原廠藥的部分還是有可能……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是只是在補這個？還是在補其他健保的漏洞？"],["石部長崇良：專利期內的還是有可能受影響，因為它的對象是針對原廠藥跟專利期內的藥，所以還是有可能受影響，但是因為還沒有公布正式的文件，我們是密切注意。至於在特別條例裡面，以特別預算編的200億會優先使用在因應關稅部分，如果因而造成藥品成本的上升，可以來提高藥價。4月到現在，我們也增加了兩百多項藥品的價格，已經核出去、已經提高了。這一筆錢會優先因應在健保的藥價調整，因為藥價不知道會發生什麼狀況，所以先預備在那裡；如果沒有用掉的部分，還是會在健保基金裡頭，不會拿來做其他的用途。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是啊！我是說健保基金裡面除了這個藥以外，還有其他的部分，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：不會啦！健保的基金都是使用在民眾的服務上，沒有作為其他的公務預算來使用。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是特別多編來補健保的缺口，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：健保的缺口也是用在民眾跟醫療服務單位的，也不會是政府部門拿來自己用的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員的發言，也謝謝部長跟署長的回答。","下一位請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164054","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164054","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc6b091f908f2a4c4085f90000f7f2f0ab54e55ddf1b168a31849987ba386f8b6b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:26:17 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出來的案件他過去被評估可能不是自災地區但是後來他發現到說原來他不是因為颱風的關聯而是因為風帶來一些鹽分的關係導致整個這個電線崗它一直都這個失效的狀況那所以這個部分也可能會需要來去做地下化"},{"start":295.143,"end":319.668,"text":"那他可能不是因封面他可能是有其他的因素在那這也是為什麼相公所會提出來那這點特別也要跟這個台電公司還有我們的部長來跟來強調一下就是這一次的地下化那其實除了嘉義以外雲嘉南地區都是非常的殷殷其盼那是希望說藉由這次機會趕快把我們的這個防災的能力把它提高謝謝謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1369,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時26分）你好，我們請部長跟台電。"],["主席：請經濟部長還有台電，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，我要先肯定稍早所看到的一些相關新聞，就是過去我們有協調台塑不要再去跟俄羅斯購買輕油，我還是一樣，對這個予以肯定，但是以後也要注意到，有些相關的制裁，對俄羅斯的一些制裁，各個歐盟國家也好或者是美國，我們都要注意一下，有些是在法規內的當然要去注意，有些是我們可以去勸說的，對整個國家利益有幫助的，也記得要去注意這些相關的議題。","今天我要講的是關於電纜地下化這個專案執行進度的追蹤，其實剛才許多委員都已經有提到，這一次全臺有超過92萬戶停電，有三千多支電線桿倒塌，我們嘉義重災區的有些鄉親停電長達10天，所以未來不管是剛才提到的微電網或者是儲電的相關設施，特別是重要的機關自己要有備援，我看到這次颱風過去之後，有一些鄉公所是整棟都沒有電的，甚至旁邊的消防隊也沒有相關的備援，連通信都出現問題。","除了這個之外，我有看到在我們立法院通過的特別預算裡面，經濟部有獲得187億元，裡面的電網韌性建置是匡列110億，我們在地方協調會上面得到的消息是關於災後重建特別條例中，會撥補我們嘉義全縣大概是8.4億去做電纜地下化的工程，預計是要在116年前完成。如果要在116年前完成的話，台電就必須在114年就要完成設計，115年就要動工，所以這個時間點都是環環相扣，而且都不能夠出錯的，我今天要追蹤的就是關於這個經費的執行進度。從風災後到現在，我已經開了三梯次的協調會，第一次是在中埔鄉公所，中埔、番路、竹崎三個鄉提出了8件易致災的地下化的提案；第二梯次及第三梯次分別是在嘉義的新港、大林還有溪口，各自都有提出6件、6件，總計加起來是20件，三個梯次就是20件，總共8.4億元。請問目前我們撥補給台電的進度是怎麼樣？是已經全數撥付、分批撥付還是現在還在行政程序當中？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，整個預算撥給台電的部分是還在進行當中，但是台電的工程設計跟規劃已經在進行了，所以我們會用最快的速度趕快發包，然後來執行剛才委員提到的那幾件工程的執行。"],["陳委員冠廷：設計規劃已經開始在進行了？"],["王總經理耀庭：已經在做了。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，好。因為經過協調會，這些都是各公所先仔細評估過後，確定可能是易致災區，他們才會提出來，也有跟台電一起開協調會。我想請教一下，未來貴部或者是台電在評估可行性的時候，標準是什麼？公所的標準就是易致災的地方，所以他才要把它提出來嘛，那會不會出現標準有落差的狀況？就是地方認為這是非常需要的，但中央的評估會說不可行，標準的落差點會在哪裡？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，我們是全臺灣一致的標準。因為這次的預算只有80億，我們不可能每一個縣市政府或地方提出來地下化的區域都可以滿足大家，所以我們會評估，地下化的部分，第一個它必須是迎風面，我們一定是在迎風面、容易致災的地區先做；第二個是我們變電所出口的這些線路，我要先地下化；再來就是一些兩層線那些，類似這種的，我們有分優先順序。至於為了美觀等等的那些，就不在我們這一次80億的範圍之內。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，我只是要再次強調就是，比方說有一些我們提出來的案件，過去被評估可能不是致災地區，但是後來發現到原來不是因為颱風的關聯，而是因為風帶來一些鹽分的關係，導致整個電線桿一直都有失效的狀況，所以這個部分也可能會需要去做地下化。他可能不是迎風面，可能是有其他的因素所導致，這也是為什麼鄉公所會提出來，這點特別也要跟台電公司還有我們的部長來強調一下。這一次的地下化，其實除了嘉義以外，雲嘉南地區都是非常的殷殷期盼，希望藉由這次機會趕快把我們的防災能力提高。謝謝。"],["王總經理耀庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢，我們也謝謝部長。","我們現在請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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讓利多少"},{"start":201.808,"end":224.987,"text":"我們現在就是手續費手續費是零然後心理費大概是原本的大概三到四成左右所以六月底上路到現在已經有四萬多開戶了已經有四萬多那您第二階段會有租稅跟其他誘因是有哪些租稅跟其他誘因目前正在積極在爭取那你希望你的普及率達到多少規模"},{"start":226.365,"end":251.777,"text":"那到年底我們希望是達到有6萬戶開戶會不會太保守你那兩個月就已經三個月就已經4萬戶了到年底才6萬戶對 因為目前還沒有出稅的優惠我希望說既然有這個個人特色的投資專戶你應該有相關的配套 其他的優惠讓開戶人能夠增加"},{"start":252.878,"end":261.493,"text":"這部分再請林董事長再努力好的謝謝林董事長接著想請問這個證交所林董事長跟那個桂馬簡董事長"},{"start":264.352,"end":285.84,"text":"就是說亞洲創新投資平台那這個證監所是針對12個這個前瞻新經濟的產業那櫃買中心是針對5個重點特色產業沒有錯吧你們未來要把它打造成這個有競爭力的上市櫃制度就台灣版的NASDAQ目前的時程怎麼樣"},{"start":287.698,"end":309.084,"text":"執行的進度執程的進度就是事實上來講的話我覺得就華規的鬆綁的部分因為我們總統跟行政院長都有宣示一些華規的鬆綁那我們預計會在台灣州的那段時間對外做宣布然後可能是最快啦應該是這一兩天就會下禮拜就把這個計畫的詳細內容做對外公佈"},{"start":315.054,"end":335.285,"text":"所以我覺得12個前瞻新進的產業固然重要包括半導體 AI智慧製造 綠能環保等等機器人然後櫃滿的是當然生技醫療 綠能環保等等那有沒有針對傳統產業 比如說扣件要如何去做先進的轉型這個部分有沒有納入古早方法"},{"start":337.046,"end":342.831,"text":"基本上沒有納入這個我們交易所這邊我們另外有一個所謂擴大市值的方案裡面我們會提供讓一些比較上市公司針對未來的一些變化他必須提供一些增加他的擴大市值的策略來進行跟"},{"start":357.003,"end":379.03,"text":"我一机构投资人跟一般投资人的沟通来扩大他的市值这个部分就不是这个所谓创新投资品对如果说是一般的这是刚才委员讲的一般的企业里面你要面临转型的时候你必须要有一些策略跟方法那我们鼓励他来揭示这些策略跟方法"},{"start":380.571,"end":395.469,"text":"讓投資大眾有更多的接觸這樣子的方式來鼓勵上市公司能夠往這個方向走林董事長您的這樣說法就是這兩天就會公告公布這個所謂的相關的制度下禮拜那你們這個初期"},{"start":398.152,"end":409.083,"text":"第一階段大概會有多少家的國內外企業會吸引到台灣來投資基本上來講的話我們是按照總統的指示我們現在是兩年未來這兩年我們希望到40家左右兩年40家這個是在創新版"},{"start":416.511,"end":430.367,"text":"那至於說真正的外國的企業到台灣來掛牌的部分來講的話我們也希望在這兩年的期間裡面能夠有一些進展所以他們要如果要籌資要進創新版"},{"start":432.738,"end":455.56,"text":"他們投資 事實上來講的話我們是以創新版來創新版就是未來轉型台灣的NASDAQ是吧對對對 基本上我們是我們拭目以待好 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纳马夏 桃园这些地区因为只要它一台风我们的网络我们的LINE上面显现的都是这些地区的一些诉求"},{"start":254.019,"end":274.526,"text":"那这次他们有特别提到一个比如说他断电的时候他造成的那个财产的损失比如说他可能是做生意的结果他这个所准备的所有的食材全部都报销掉了结果没有帮球场无门他甚至可能准备了一些要给游客吃的或者是一些所以我觉得这个部分应该要纳入赔偿的机制可以吗"},{"start":275.666,"end":297.495,"text":"跟各位報告NC這邊是負責通訊這一塊像這是海端綠道跟烏鹿這一塊原來是因為路不通所以三家電信業者沒辦法進去搶修那後來在指揮中心那邊卸調之下透過空前總隊調掛one web的衛星模組進去把中華電信救回來之後那另外兩家進行漫遊那未來長期性的規劃我們會在"},{"start":298.375,"end":327.479,"text":"这个灾害浅市区的那边会增强来增建高抗灾的基地台不好意思 还有最后一个问题关于检疫自来水的问题请水利署检疫自来水的问题在花莲卓西乡的清水部落他们反映就是说只要是台风水质就不佳管理委员会就权责不清供水管理不公我希望你们"},{"start":328.041,"end":349.514,"text":"这样的一个问题能不能在以后在做一个补助相关补助要点的时候可以纳入专业团队来辅导操作跟维护不然他们会互踢皮球也不是相公所也不是县政府的然后是他们管委会的然后他们三个组织会没有办法互相相容所以造成我们地方族人的一些用水的一些权益的损失"},{"start":350.339,"end":367.893,"text":"包委員這個部分本來就是應該要來積極辦理的部分現在水利署本來就有一個輔導團隊我們也跟縣市政府一起合作來成立一些整體專案的輔導團隊所以委員所談的我們會全力照辦謝謝非常謝謝謝謝盧秀玉委員的質詢謝謝署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1338,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（12時19分）主席，有請我們公路局。"],["主席：請交通部次長、公路局副局長。"],["盧委員縣一：副座好。"],["主席：公路局副局長？聯絡人通知一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，沒關係，請先……"],["盧委員縣一：沒關係的話，那我們就開始。針對丹娜絲颱風的問題，原鄉只要遇到颱風，大概就是沒有水、沒有電、沒有路、沒有通訊，所以我們如何提升部落面對災害的整體韌性，我希望我們的部會長官們都能夠體諒或者體恤我們族人的生活。我們每次提到颱風的時候，最常接到的電話就是我們海端鄉跟桃源區，桃源區是高雄市這一端，也就是甲仙工務段，海端這邊則是關山工務段，我大概去了海端兩次，如果長官有去的話，大概就知道那邊的慘狀，幾乎那個路都不能走了，大概用了一個禮拜的時間，目前是勉強搶通，不過道路損壞的程度，如果你沒有去看過是無法想像的，用講的或是照片也還是沒有辦法去形容，所以針對臺20線的部分，目前公路局的規劃是怎麼樣？尤其是海端這一段。"],["林副局長聰利：報告委員，有關臺20線省道的部分，就是剛剛委員談到的這個問題，我們會一併要求我們當地的工務段在設計的時候，在災修工程中一併納入去做改善。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，他們特別強調182K跟189K，然後還有南橫沿線部落長期道路積水跟排水不良的問題，他們希望你們在施工或是做排水系統的時候能夠跟他們溝通，因為他們是長期生活在那裡，所以他們會知道水線怎麼走，如果你們按照你們的意見，可是跟部落的意見不同的時候，我覺得你們應該要溝通一下，因為他們常常說：「他們做他們的，我們講的他們不聽」，會有這方面的疑慮，人家覺得你們又不是這裡的人，他們比你了解，所以希望有這方面的體恤。"],["林副局長聰利：是，我們……"],["盧委員縣一：這次我們有一個堰塞湖專項的監測機制，希望你們可以將臺20線沿線的邊坡納入這個監測機制，為什麼呢？因為在更早之前，利稻有一個邊坡滑落，結果後來我們請了礦業中心來了解地方地質的時候，他竟然說要請地方政府出這筆監測的錢。既然這次丹娜絲颱風有這個堰塞湖長期監測的機制，我希望把臺20線也納入長期監測，這樣才能知道哪一個邊坡比較危險。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，委員，有關山區道路邊坡的相關防治，其實是公路局長期在做的，所以委員剛才特別提到這樣的一個建議，我想我們會把它納在後續的復建工程裡面。"],["盧委員縣一：不要再說要監測的話沒有錢、要找地方政府，這樣的話我們就沒有辦法跟地方交代了。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，不會啦，只要是省道要防治的邊坡，公路局、交通部都會拿起來當作自己的事來做。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。接下來請NCC。"],["主席：請NCC。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：剛才伍委員有提到關於我們部落常常斷電、斷訊的部分，我希望微電網可以設置在易致災地區，比如說阿里山、那瑪夏、桃源等這些地區，因為只要一有颱風，我們的LINE上面顯現的都是這些地區的一些訴求，這次他們有特別提到斷電的時候所造成的財產損失，比如說他可能是做生意的，他準備的所有食材全部都報銷掉了，結果求償無門，他甚至可能準備了一些要給遊客吃的或者是一些……所以我覺得這個部分應該也要納入賠償的機制，可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，NCC這邊是負責通訊這一塊，像這次海端、利稻跟霧鹿這一塊，原來是因為路不通，所以三家電信業者沒辦法進去搶修，後來在指揮中心的協調之下，透過空勤總隊吊掛OneWeb的衛星模組進去把中華電信救回來之後，另外兩家進行漫遊。未來長期性的規劃，我們會在災害潛勢區增強來增建高抗災的基地臺。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。不好意思，主席，還有最後一個問題是關於簡易自來水的部分，請水利署。"],["主席：請水利署。"],["林署長元鵬：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：花蓮卓溪鄉清水部落反映，只要有颱風就會有水質不佳、管理委員會權責不清與供水管理不公的爭議，對於這樣的問題，你們能不能在以後做相關補助要點的時候，可以納入專業團隊來輔導、操作跟維護？不然他們會互踢皮球，也不是鄉公所的，也不是縣政府的，然後是管委會的，他們三個組織沒有辦法互相相容，所以造成我們地方族人的一些用水權益損失。"],["林署長元鵬：報告委員，這個部分本來就是應該要積極辦理，現在水利署本來就有一個輔導團隊，我們也跟縣市政府一起合作來成立一些整體專案輔導團隊，所以委員所談的，我們會全力照辦。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["林署長元鵬：非常謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，謝謝署長。","NCC的韌性通訊真的很重要，這幾次災害下來，這變成大家沒有辦法去控制的一個部分，所以對於我們的民間業者，還有中華電信，到底要怎麼加強？雖然我們在這一次的特別條例、特別預算有編了補助，可是他們自己要盡多少的力量？不是我們補助給他們，他們自己就不用動了耶！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會要求他們，大家共同努力。"],["主席：對啊，他們都是擺在演唱會用，那是賺錢耶，可是我們所有的通訊品質，他們要幫我們照顧啊！所以針對這個部分，我們也請NCC在一個月內把所有相關通訊要如何處理、強化韌性的部分報到我們委員會來，謝謝。","現在請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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主席謝謝 麻煩請石部長麻煩石部長好 部長"},{"start":13.055,"end":40.276,"text":"国人看到近期发生这个黑心大肠的事件其实对于我们全民国食安都有非常大的一个影响那我想先请教一下因为本席有看到是说相关的一个资料第一这一家公司它在屏东已经从事珠藏加工作业多年对不对可是它是新北市这边有讲法说为如实进行食品业者登陆及为投保产品责任险"},{"start":41.441,"end":49.981,"text":"換言之他就所謂的我們一般俗稱的是地下工廠那這種非典型的這個食安破口來講我們想請教到底全台灣目前還有多少家"},{"start":51.291,"end":68.402,"text":"按照我們的食安法的規定他本身是這個百威啊是登記在台北的一家食品公司一個食品公司只是他的倉儲設在新北是倉儲在新北然後加工在屏東對加工廠在屏東屏東的這個加工廠沒有登入進他的這個"},{"start":72.905,"end":93.325,"text":"他已經在屏東加工豬場多年了據這個相關政府的這個回報他已經多年可是自始至終沒有登錄食品業者那再來他也沒有投保沒有登錄食品廠那他們也沒有投保相關的責任險那這就不是只是單一個案嗎"},{"start":94.466,"end":113.839,"text":"還是全台灣因為見為知著嘛就是說我們現在想要理解說到底這樣子的一個個案到全台灣還有多少因為本席有看到食藥署近期公告擴大實施食品安全的檢測計畫本席予以肯定因為這個是食安把關但是這個心智主要是針對有登記有規模的業者"},{"start":114.739,"end":138.309,"text":"那如果說以百威食品這個案例來講他就自始自終沒登記啊所以你們再怎麼擴大食品安全檢測是檢測不到百威的所以才會從下游往上查下游就是說販賣端就是販賣給消費者端他要去確認他的食材的來源是合法那我們可不可以講一個大白話大實話到底全台灣現在還有多少百威"},{"start":141.285,"end":159.398,"text":"我們當然不敢講不過整個從我們現在食安五環的概念它是必須比如說你是販賣這個麵線的那你用了這個大廠你的來源你要確認它是來自於合法應該說我們期待的是所有的食品最終端的食品業者"},{"start":159.798,"end":170.671,"text":"他要進口的他要購買的原料也都是合格的確認來自於合格的那我再請教這個百威食品現在我們查獲所用的豬腸來自於哪裡"},{"start":171.977,"end":191.607,"text":"那個是農場就是那個是國內的還是國內的土宅廠那照理講國內的土宅廠他賣給誰這就兩端嘛一個是國內的土宅廠他是合法合格的土宅廠那他賣給一個百威但是百威他是"},{"start":192.728,"end":213.468,"text":"不合格沒登記應該這麼講因為他還是登記他是食品廠所以他賣給他的時候認為他是賣給一個食品業者因為他有登記食品公司只是這一個操作的點是沒有登入進來的合法的場所所以署長我們在這個案例裡面就像剛剛你也講到是說可以從下游管理但是"},{"start":213.948,"end":240.88,"text":"某種程度上上游來溯源也是可以的兩端應該都要一起因為我們不要說整個一個供應鏈來講中間有一個破口但是很明顯這個案例裡面就是中間出現了破口他用非法的工業用的雙氧水來去做加工造成說上游以為他賣給是一個合法的食品廠下游以為他可能買到的也是一個合法的但中間他做的是一個黑心的事情"},{"start":242.501,"end":263.995,"text":"那如果說從這部分來講的話我們未來可以怎麼樣因應因為你現在擴大稽查中間的工廠可是你查不到這些地下工廠啊所以當然是規定都已經有了所以一旦查獲的話一定是嚴懲不要讓他們有這個矯悉的心態可是我們希望的是不要有這樣的狀況發生因為大家都已經吃下肚了嘛"},{"start":265.315,"end":280.303,"text":"然後另一方面就透過這個E化讓它整個這個食品鏈能夠串起來包含電子發票電子登錄讓它串起來部長 那我們這樣子這些作為什麼時候可以更加強改善我們現在已經讓這個電子發票跟"},{"start":283.824,"end":306.294,"text":"電子登錄的百分比大概是在食品廠的九成到九成五各縣市當然不一樣那我們希望把這最後一里路趕快把它完成那最後一里路還沒有辦法完成主要原因是什麼沒錢沒人沒有就是這些業者本身的意願或者是他的規模等等會有這些所以部長您提到其實很"},{"start":307.054,"end":331.033,"text":"中肯的一個狀況就說我們至少百分之九十幾就是能夠全面的來做這樣子的一個路線你影響的大多數消費者也是有比較保障但是在這個案例你有沒有再請教我有看到我們食藥署業已經重罰五千四百萬罰還可是查了一下百威這個食品業食品公司他登記資本額只有"},{"start":333.334,"end":348.019,"text":"500萬對那5000是收得到嗎我們向法院申請假扣押已經申請了那這一個負責人他有一個三天的時間然後之後我們就申請所以第一我們已經申請假扣押所以他名下的這些財產相關方面也不會讓他脫產"},{"start":349.279,"end":364.35,"text":"我們第一步呢先依請這個行政執行署來做強制執行然後第二個再跟法院做假扣押那這一個負責人因為我看到地檢署還有在偵辦有可能有所謂的刑事責任所以會持續偵辦當中"},{"start":366.171,"end":394.542,"text":"對 那我們行政法我們就先走了那那個形式的部分由這個檢調繼續在偵查中好 那最後啦 一個部分因為今年4月中央政府有對於未登記的食品工廠福島轉型合格納管工廠的專案我們全台灣到目前為止這今年4月的資料還有134家未登記的食品工廠是不是這可能跟這個食安辦比較有相關"},{"start":396.115,"end":417.774,"text":"跟委員報告 具體的數目是要問經濟部產業發展署有一些是特登的工廠我們在幾年前有一個工廠管理法的修法之後"},{"start":419.028,"end":431.738,"text":"有做一些特登工廠去輔導那至於您剛問說還有多少沒有納管那個具體的數字我沒有不過可能還有所以"},{"start":434.9,"end":461.806,"text":"來 部長也好 或是我們食安辦主任有沒有注意到一個重點今天我們面臨到一個是食安看到的是食品工廠本行拿這個資料是今年4月你們所提供的新聞稿相關資料所以有134家有掌握但還沒有登記的食品工廠那需要配合工廠輔導管理法來去協助他做合法可是這個時間期限在什麼時候我們在2030"},{"start":465.227,"end":486.098,"text":"2040對不對一個是2030你要去完成登記特種工廠一個是要整個用地完全合法是2040當然這是法令規定可是凸顯什麼問題凸顯工廠要問經濟部食安要問衛福部然後我們還有一個行政院食品安全辦公室"},{"start":487.165,"end":509.511,"text":"可是三方面就是一問到工廠問經濟部經濟部今天剛好沒來那食安衛福部要管理然後還有我們行政院食安辦公室結果又說這應該是兩個部會各自要去協調這個從法規上面確實這樣不過因為在食安管理上面跟用地所在地是無關的只要他是做食品業者有這個行為都要去"},{"start":510.972,"end":518.42,"text":"衛福部的這個去登錄然後要去接受這個GHP的這個定期的集合"},{"start":519.898,"end":546.866,"text":"就是說他跟用地的那個長址的身份是無關只要他有這個行為我們就是一律在為不讓 還有其他的質詢我想部長我還是拉回來就是說今天國人都很關心食品安全那我們也希望食品安全真的是良好把關但是食安如果說有跨兩個部會然後還有這個一個辦公室在中間我們期待的是辦公室要嘛就整合兩個部會要嘛就一個部會來做主責來去處理而不是"},{"start":547.486,"end":565.843,"text":"食安歸我但是工廠歸他工廠歸他食安歸你就到最後就是互推皮球了部長能不能針對這部分來跟經濟部來做進一步的溝通看怎麼樣能夠讓這樣子運作上來講更加順暢我們會來努力把這兩邊都無縫接軌起來謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時12分）主席謝謝，麻煩請石部長。"],["主席：麻煩石部長。"],["石部長崇良：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，國人看到近期發生這個黑心大腸的事件，其實對於我們全民食安都有非常大的影響。我想先請教一下，因為本席有看到相關的資料，第一，這一家公司在屏東已經從事豬腸加工作業多年，對不對？可是新北市的講法是說他未如實進行食品業者登錄及未投保產品責任險。換言之，他就是所謂一般俗稱的地下工廠！以這種非典型的食安破口來講，請教到底全臺灣目前還有多少家？"],["石部長崇良：按照我們食安法的規定，百威本身是登記在臺北的一家食品公司……"],["洪委員孟楷：一家食品公司？"],["石部長崇良：他是食品公司，只是他的倉儲設在新北……"],["洪委員孟楷：倉儲在新北，然後加工在屏東。"],["石部長崇良：對，加工廠在屏東，所以屏東的加工廠沒有登錄進系統裡。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一，他已經在屏東加工豬腸多年了，據相關回報，已經很多年了，可是自始至終都沒有登錄為食品業者……"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，他也沒有投保……"],["石部長崇良：是食品廠。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有登錄食品廠。他們也沒有投保相關的責任險。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：這只是單一個案嗎？還是全臺灣……因為見微知著嘛！就是我們現在想要理解的是，這樣的個案全臺灣還有多少？因為本席有看到食藥署近期公告擴大實施食品安全的監測計畫，本席予以肯定，因為這是為食安把關，但是這新制主要是針對有登記及有規模的業者。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果以百威食品這個案例來講，他就自始至終沒登記啊！所以你們再怎麼擴大食品安全監測，是監測不到百威的。"],["石部長崇良：所以才會從下游往上查，下游就是販賣端，販賣給消費者端，他要去確認他的食材來源是合法的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們可不可以講一個大白話、大實話，到底全臺灣現在還有多少百威？"],["石部長崇良：我們當然不敢講啦！不過，整個從我們現在食安五環的概念，他是必須……比如你是販賣麵線的，你用了這個大腸，你要確認來源是來自於合法……"],["洪委員孟楷：你要回頭查嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對，要回頭往上查。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們期待的是所有的食品，最終端的食品業者要進口的、要購買的原料也都是合格的。"],["石部長崇良：他的責任要去確認來自於合格的食品廠。"],["洪委員孟楷：我再請教，現在你們查獲這百威食品所用的豬場來自於哪裡？"],["石部長崇良：那個是農場，就是屏東……"],["洪委員孟楷：是國內的，還是進口的？"],["石部長崇良：是國內的屠宰場。"],["洪委員孟楷：照理講，國內的屠宰場賣給誰？這就兩端嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對，所以很清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個是國內的屠宰場，他是合法、合格的屠宰場？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：他賣給百威……"],["石部長崇良：對，百威。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是百威是不合格也沒登記？"],["石部長崇良：應該這麼講，因為他還是有登記，是登記為食品廠，所以屠宰場賣給他的時候，認為是賣給一個食品業者，因為他有登記食品公司，只是這一個操作的點是沒有登錄進來的合法場所。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。所以署長，在這個案例裡就像剛剛你也講到的，可以從下游管理。但是某種程度上來說，從上游來溯源也是可以的，兩端應該都要一起，因為我們不要整個供應鏈的中間有一個破口。但是很明顯這個案例裡面就是中間出現了破口！他用非法工業用的雙氧水來去做加工，造成上游以為他賣給一個合法的食品廠，下游以為他可能買到的也是一個合法的，但中間他做的是一個黑心的事情。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果從這部分來講的話，你們未來可以怎麼樣因應？因為你們現在擴大稽查中間的工廠，可是查不到這些地下工廠啊！"],["石部長崇良：對。當然是規定都已經有了，所以一旦查獲的話，一定是嚴懲，不要讓他們有僥倖的心態：第二個是透過稽查……"],["洪委員孟楷：可是我們希望的是不要有這樣的狀況發生，因為大家都已經吃下肚了嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。另一方面就透過e化，讓整個食品鏈能夠串起來，包含電子發票、電子登錄可以讓它串起來，所以才能夠掌握……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你們這些作為什麼時候可以更加強、改善？"],["石部長崇良：我們現在已經讓電子發票跟電子登錄的百分比，在食品廠大概是9成到9成5，各縣市當然不一樣，我們希望把這最後一哩路趕快把它完成。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後一哩路還沒有辦法完成的主要原因是什麼？"],["石部長崇良：當然還有考慮到……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錢、沒人？"],["石部長崇良：不是，是這些業者本身的意願，或者是他的規模等等會有這些考量。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以部長，其實您提到一個很中肯的狀況，就是我們至少百分之九十幾能夠全面的來做這樣的一個路線，你影響大多數的消費者也是有比較保障。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是在這個案例裡，我再請教，我有看到你們食藥署已經重罰5,400萬罰鍰。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：可是我查了一下百威這家食品公司，他登記資本額只有500萬，請問5,400萬收得到嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我們向法院申請假扣押。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經申請了？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個負責人……"],["石部長崇良：因為它有一個三天的時間，在之後我們就申請了。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一，你們已經申請了假扣押，所以他名下的這些財產及其他的相關方面，也不會讓他脫產？"],["石部長崇良：我們第一步先移請行政執行署做強制執行，第二步再跟法院做假扣押。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。有關這位負責人，因為我看到地檢署還有在偵辦，有可能有所謂的刑事責任……"],["石部長崇良：有可能。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以會持續偵辦當中。"],["石部長崇良：對。有關於行政罰的部分，我們就先走了。而在刑事的部分，由檢調單位繼續在偵查中。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，中央政府在今年4月有對於未登記的食品工廠輔導轉型合格納管工廠的專案，我們全臺灣到目前為止，以今年4月的資料，還有134家未登記的食品工廠，是不是？這可能跟食安辦比較有相關。"],["許主任輔：跟委員報告，具體的數字要問經濟部的產業發展署，有一些是特登的工廠，我們幾年前在工廠管理輔導法的修法之後，有輔導一些特登工廠。至於您剛剛問還有多少沒有納管，具體的數字我沒有，不過可能還有。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以部長也好或是食安辦主任，有沒有注意到一個重點？今天我們面臨到的一個是食安，看到的是食品工廠，本席拿這個資料是今年4月你們所提供的新聞稿相關資料，說有134家有掌握，但還沒有登記的食品工廠，需要配合工廠輔導管理法去協助他合法，可是這個期限在什麼時候？"],["許主任輔：我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：在2030、2040，對不對？一個是2030要完成登記特種工廠，一個是整個用地要完全合法是2040。"],["許主任輔：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然這是法令規定，可是凸顯什麼問題？凸顯了工廠要問經濟部、食安要問衛福部，然後我們還有一個行政院食品安全辦公室，可是三方面的狀況就是，一問到工廠，說問經濟部，但經濟部今天剛好沒來。食安是衛福部要管理，然後還有行政院食安辦公室，結果又說這應該是兩個部會各自要去協調。"],["許主任輔：對，這個從法規上面確實是這樣，不過因為在食安管理上面跟用地所在地是無關的，只要食品業者有這個行為都要去衛福部登錄，然後要接受GHP的定期稽核。也就是說它跟用地的廠址身分是無關，只要它有這個行為，我們就是一律在衛福部納管。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席還有其他質詢，所以我還是拉回來。今天國人都很關心食品安全，我們也希望食品安全真的有良好把關，但是食安如果有跨兩個部會，然後還有一個辦公室在中間，我們期待的是辦公室要嘛就整合兩個部會，要嘛就一個部會主責處理，而不是食安歸我，但是工廠歸他，工廠歸他、食安歸你，結果到最後就是互踢皮球了！","部長，能不能針對這個部分跟經濟部做進一步的溝通？看怎麼樣能夠讓這樣子的運作上來講更加順暢。"],["石部長崇良：好，我們會努力把這兩邊都無縫接軌起來。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言，謝謝部長跟許主任的回答。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc603d21a26cccd04f524a4fcb09fe332054e55ddf1b168a31a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:09:26 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主席辛苦了 邀請金管會彭主委我們請彭主委"},{"start":8.53,"end":31.864,"text":"委員好主委午安這個因為我現在已經是外委會的委員所以比較後面才能質詢你所以前面幾個我原本準備的題目前面的委員大概都已經垂詢了所以我也不太想浪費您的時間那麼就是有關於這個詐騙然後因為這個警示賬戶的問題您今天也都回答得非常多了只是我覺得有沒有一個作業上面的SOP真的可以簡化這個"},{"start":32.785,"end":61.476,"text":"整個的流程讓民眾的困擾可以降低所以我想要問的就是像這樣的所謂疑似不法我們現在判斷標準有沒有什麼方式真的可以更明確讓第一線的銀行的不論是國營或是民營他們在製作這樣的所謂因為一方面又要幫打詐把關那麼一方面真的如果出現狀況像我前幾天還看到那個新聞真的就是第一線的銀行行員說老太太你要匯三千六百塊喔不是他要匯三千六百萬"},{"start":62.076,"end":76.228,"text":"他打死就是非要匯出去不可那像這種狀況底下減少避免爭議甚至於擾民的狀況到底這樣的標準可不可以更明確而怎麼樣制定的更明確是不是有一個可以遵守的守則其實我們現在已經"},{"start":77.729,"end":100.728,"text":"因為剛剛委員提到我們才剛剛成立我們知道這個打詐整合的重要性我們請銀行公會趕快成立一個已經成立了這個打詐委員會我們就希望大家比如剛剛委員提到共通性的東西大家先互相照會這樣明確但是我們不會對外公佈這東西不能對外公佈因為只要我們SOP這樣子就會變成一個樣態可以讓所謂犯罪集團或詐騙集團來模仿"},{"start":102.729,"end":130.494,"text":"對就是說我們怎麼做這件事情我們可以透過訊息的這個傳遞但是不對外說明因為為什麼那這樣的東西可以多快能夠達到這樣的準則上面可以更明確然後如果真的發生了這樣的狀態比如說我坦白說我們在社群媒體上是很容易就被民眾tag我們點名我們然後要我們來處理但是我們不認為這個是一個正確的做法它應該要有另外一個"},{"start":131.894,"end":152.925,"text":"合理的管道可以來做申訴那有沒有可能建立這樣的機制其實他本來就是我們現在要求銀行他一定要提供那個專線還有這些專人來服務這些比如因為被鎖控產生衍生的爭議剛才有文提到電話不好打我們會再去了解那至於說剛才那個標準的部分那是持續滾動的狀態隨時會有新的我們會透過那個這個"},{"start":156.807,"end":170.295,"text":"所以已經成立而且這個樣態上面的模組是可以怎麼樣叫疑似然後怎麼樣是可以解開的這個會滾動的每天或者是多久會做一次處理"},{"start":171.14,"end":197.143,"text":"因為我們委員會的部分它有一定但是它這個運作就在持續在運作中好 那麼剛剛提到的就是電話不好打我自己本人也有這樣的經驗我真的打進去所以我建議像現在都有所謂的AI甚至於有其他的透過線上的方式可以處理的部分是不是也可以建議銀行或是銀行公會這裡也可以讓業者們可以加入我覺得這也是不失為一個解套的方法"},{"start":197.683,"end":214.822,"text":"對 提高效率 提高服務的品質這我們一定會來要求但是這邊也稍微提一下就是很多民眾可能不理解他被鎖空可能有兩個原因一個是因為他是被檢調所鎖的警示帳戶這個銀行是沒辦法幫你解的是 就在調查單位那裡對 那個是要"},{"start":217.205,"end":235.418,"text":"要回到源頭去那個解很多民眾可能以為說我跟銀行講這是為受害者那通關銀行也無能為力倒是剛才委員講的應該是指他自行鎖控根據打詐專法第八條自行鎖控部分不夠精準所導致的這些問題他們就要好好來處理這件問題"},{"start":236.909,"end":250.281,"text":"好 了解所以這個部分其實是全民最關心的另外一個當然我關心的就是我們剛剛前面也有很多委員在談到就是剩下不到三個月的時間那麼到底現在的"},{"start":251.564,"end":275.473,"text":"ICS給予的所謂的監理寬容的這個部分我其實比較想要問的是剩下的時間這麼的短而它又是一個整體浮動的狀況的時候每一個受險業者他們自己本身的狀況不一樣當每一個人都要達到新規的100%的時候剛剛主委也講了可能就是明天後天或者是本週這個規定將出來"},{"start":277.634,"end":295.093,"text":"可是就算是明天后天也是将近十月底了那么距离接下来的到明年的时间也不到两个月那么如何让所有的人都可以齐步走而且能够在这个规定上面符合每一家受险业者的状态跟样态"},{"start":296.174,"end":312.299,"text":"那這個部分寶帕中心正在思考當中也在精密計算當中但是如何讓大家都能夠使用其實我認為非常的困難就像你做一件衣服要符合今天在場的所有的人這個其實困難度是非常高的"},{"start":314.56,"end":329.357,"text":"這個文非常清楚我們為了這個專案我親自主持會議應該超過50場從我上任開始不斷每週每週這樣開會我的意思是說剛才各位可能會覺得只剩一兩個月但是各位知道我們接軌1月1號真正那個報表會出來"},{"start":330.878,"end":359.184,"text":"應該是第一個報表日應該是6月30號明天6月30號政治的報表應該是明年的12月30號所以真正的會到後年所以是那個時間不會是各位看到那麼緊迫只是應該講為什麼我們一定要把這個制度很周延就剛才委員提到了這個複雜的程度超乎我們當時的想像因為各家狀況不一樣而且這套制度複雜程度跟過去的方法論完全不同所以我想這要兼顧各家的差異又要能夠穩健過渡又有這個"},{"start":360.632,"end":383.019,"text":"最近半年的政經情勢的波動那這些確實是為什麼我們要在這個花這麼多時間會在最近一兩天公佈就是因為我們真的希望盡量的周延作為讓我們的所有的受險業能夠平穩的我不喜歡稱為叫做寬容它這個過渡措施是希望我們的受險業往更好方向爬樓梯的過程"},{"start":383.399,"end":390.567,"text":"好那我最後因為主席站起來我只問一個點那就是就像我剛剛特別提到的因為每一家受險業者的狀況不一樣的時候他們各自遭遇到了問題了然後他們如何去做回饋包括您剛剛講的嘛開的會議也不只超過50場"},{"start":400.618,"end":420.956,"text":"是跟百發中心跟金管會還是如何讓他們的問題可以在整個會計呈現當中更精準的時候大家都不一樣的時候那這樣的溝通過程該怎麼處理我們當然是這個制度是要業者來做的這個溝通絕對不可少但是政策的制定呢是我們來決定"},{"start":422.177,"end":445.082,"text":"當然是我們要負責這個政策因為各家的需求不同我們要整合他們的意見本來就花很大的功夫我們也是在這個過程中一步一驅的跟他們進行溝通好 所以言下之意就是這兩天公佈之後接下來到明年的第一次的報表出來的時候反而是啟動溝通甚至於在這樣的規定當中可以有調整的機制"},{"start":445.462,"end":461.716,"text":"其實我們也有跟社運公會溝通說因為因應這個情況請社運公會能夠籌組個專業的接軌委員會他們也同意朝這個這就是一個很好的一個這是一個未來是十幾二十年的過程一定要有一個專業的對口好 所以結論就是"},{"start":464.193,"end":489.938,"text":"這個規則出來之後它其實是有修正甚至於調整的空間在那裡而不是一個死板板的規定就在那裡資本監理是非常有彈性會因應的所有的狀況我想看國外也都是這樣因為它的目的是要讓產業更好而不是成為一個變成是一個不可動沒有辦法因應環境波動的一個限制好 謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝林委員接下來我們請邱志維委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1007,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時9分）謝謝主席，主席辛苦了，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：主委午安。因為我現在已經是外委會的委員，所以比較後面才能質詢你，前面幾個我原本準備的題目前面的委員大概都已經垂詢了，因此我也不太想浪費您的時間。","關於詐騙警示帳戶的問題，您今天也都回答的非常多了，只是我覺得作業上的SOP真的可以簡化整個流程，讓民眾的困擾降低，所以我想要問的是，所謂疑似不法，以現在判斷的標準有沒有什麼方式真的可以更明確讓第一線的銀行，不論是國銀或是民營，他們在製作所謂……因為一方面又要幫打詐把關，一方面如果真的出現狀況，像我前幾天還看到新聞，第一線的銀行行員問「老太太，你要匯3,600塊嗎？」不是，他要匯3,600萬！他打死就是非要匯出去不可，像這種狀況如何減少、避免爭議，甚至於有擾民的狀況，到底這樣的標準可不可以更明確？而怎麼樣制定得更明確，是不是有可以遵守的守則？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員提到我們才剛剛成立，我們知道打詐整合的重要性，銀行公會已經成立打詐委員會，希望大家……比如剛剛委員提到共通性的東西大家先互相照會，這很明確，但是我們不會對外公布，這東西不能對外公布，只要我們SOP……"],["林委員楚茵：是，這樣子就會變成一個樣態可以讓所謂犯罪集團或詐騙集團來模仿。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對，就是我們的SOP，我們怎麼做這件事情可以透過訊息的傳遞，但是不對外說明，因為這我們有在做。"],["林委員楚茵：這樣的東西多快能夠達到準則上面可以更明確，如果真的發生了這樣的狀態，比如我坦白說，我們在社群媒體上是很容易被民眾tag、點名要我們來處理，但是我們不認為這是正確的作法，他應該要有另外合理的管道可以申訴，有沒有可能建立這樣的機制？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們本來就有要求銀行一定要提供專線還有專人來服務，比如因為被鎖控衍生的爭議，剛剛委員提到電話不好打，我們會再去了解。至於剛剛提到標準的部分，那是持續滾動的狀態，隨時會有新的，我們會透過……"],["林委員楚茵：所以已經成立……"],["彭主任委員金隆：已經在運作了。"],["林委員楚茵：而且樣態上面的模組是可以怎麼樣叫疑似、怎麼樣是可以解開的，這個會滾動的、每天或者是多久會做一次處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們委員會的部分……但這個運作就是持續在運作中。"],["林委員楚茵：好，剛剛提到電話不好打，我自己本人也有這樣的經驗，我真的曾經打進去，所以我建議，像現在都有所謂的AI，甚至有其他透過線上的方式可以處理的部分，是不是建議銀行或是銀行公會讓業者們可以加入，我覺得這也不失為一個解套的方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，提高效率、提高服務的品質，這我們一定會要求，但是這邊也稍微提一下，很多民眾可能不理解，他被鎖控可能有兩個原因，一個是因為他是被檢調所鎖的警示帳戶，這個銀行是沒辦法幫你解的。"],["林委員楚茵：是，就是在調查單位那裡。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那個是要回到源頭去，很多民眾可能以為跟銀行講「我也是受害者」，通常銀行也無能為力。倒是剛剛委員講的應該是指他自行鎖控，根據打詐專法第八條。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：自行鎖控部分不夠精準所導致的這些問題，他們就要好好來處理。"],["林委員楚茵：了解，這個部分其實是全民最關心的。","另外，我關心的是剛剛前面有很多委員談到剩下不到三個月的時間，到底現在的ICS給予所謂監理寬容的部分，我其實比較想要問的是，剩下的時間這麼短，而它又是一個整體浮動狀況的時候，每一個壽險業者他們自己本身的狀況不一樣，當每一個人都要達到新規的百分之一百的時候，剛剛主委也講了，可能就是明天、後天或者是本週這個規定將出來，就算是明天、後天也是將近10月底了，距離明年的時間也不到兩個月，如何讓所有的人都可以齊步走？而且能夠在規定上面符合每一家壽險業者的狀態跟樣態？有關這個部分，保發中心正在思考當中，也在精密計算當中，但是如何讓大家都能夠使用？其實我認為非常的困難。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["林委員楚茵：就像你做一件衣服，要符合今天在場所有的人，其實困難度是非常高的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員非常清楚，我們為了這個專案，我親自主持會議應該超過50場，從我上任開始每週、每週不斷開會。我的意思是說，各位可能會覺得只剩一、兩個月，但是各位知道我們接軌1月1號，真正報表會出來，第一個報表日應該是明年6月30號，正式的報表應該是明年的12月30號，所以真正會到後年，所以說時間不會是各位看到的那麼緊迫，只是應該講為什麼一定要讓制度很周延？就是剛才委員提到這複雜的程度超乎我們當時的想像，因為各家狀況不一樣，而且這套制度複雜程度跟過去的方法論完全不同，所以我想這要兼顧各家的差異又要能夠穩健過渡，又有最近半年政經情勢的波動，為什麼我們要這部分花這麼多時間？會在最近一、兩天公布，就是因為我們真的希望儘量的周延，讓所有的壽險業能夠平穩的，我不喜歡稱為寬容，它是一個過渡措施，是希望我們的壽險業往更好的方向、爬樓梯的過程。"],["林委員楚茵：因為主席站起來，我最後只問一個點，就像我剛剛特別提到的，因為每一家壽險業者狀況不一樣的時候，他們各自遭遇到問題，如何去做回饋？包括你剛剛講的，開的會議也超過50場，是跟保發中心、跟金管會，如何讓他們的問題可以在整個會計呈現更精準。大家都不一樣的時候，溝通過程該怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然制度是要業者來做，溝通絕對不可少，但是政策的制定是我們來決定，當然我們要負責政策，因為各家的需求不同，要整合他們意見本來就花很大的功夫，我們在過程中也是亦步亦趨地跟他們進行溝通。"],["林委員楚茵：所以言下之意就是這兩天公布之後，接下來到明年第一次報表出來的時候，反而是啟動溝通，甚至於在這樣的規定當中可以有調整的機會。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，其實我們也跟壽險公會溝通，為因應這個情況，請壽險公會能夠籌組專業的接軌委員會，他們也同意朝這方向，這就是很好的……未來十幾二十年的過程一定要有專業的對口。"],["林委員楚茵：所以結論是，這個規則出來之後其實是有修正，甚至於調整的空間，而不是死板板的規定在那裡。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，資本監理是非常有彈性會因應所有的狀況，我想國外也都是這樣，因為它的目的是要讓產業更好，而不是成為不可動、沒有辦法因應環境波動的限制。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164049","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164049","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edce1ba41e76757b7ec85f90000f7f2f0ab54e55ddf1b168a31b5c8fdb204d45c695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:07:01 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謝謝主席那我們是不是先請農業部跟林保署農業部林保署 部長不用喔"},{"start":21.855,"end":28.098,"text":"部長對部長也要我要幫你休息一下沒辦法好我簡單問部長部長因為整個丹阿斯颱風那"},{"start":35.302,"end":64.347,"text":"之後可以是說重創了整個嘉義尤其是山區的一個旅遊因為大家如果聽到鳳台阿里山公路有出狀況的話基本上並不會只有在災情期間影響觀光客他會後續影響的連續一段的一個時間因為大家都會想說不知道這個山路火候的狀況怎麼樣所以就會大家會持續觀望一下所以這一個暑假整個阿里山的觀光大概是就沒有"},{"start":64.767,"end":76.113,"text":"以往的理想這個是大家看得到的所以我們現在是基本上要加速恢復地方的一個觀光產業那我第一個想要問的就是說我們阿里山林鐵"},{"start":78.228,"end":102.177,"text":"上次我在辦考察的時候我有要求說阿里山的這一個森林鐵路應該要加開區間車因為有區間車才可以讓一些觀光客他不用急著就是要當天往返他可能可以選擇說我坐區間車那我就可以在阿里山或者是跟竹崎、本紀由或者是跟梅山這邊可以做一個這個"},{"start":104.639,"end":115.049,"text":"點跟點的旅遊 不用說我就一個去 去旅遊然後要趕到回來的車就要同一天再回來所以區間車有這樣的一個好處那所以想要請教部長整個區間車的一個規劃狀況呢"},{"start":117.233,"end":136.04,"text":"我想現委員的一個質詢因為阿里山是一個台灣非常棒的一個風險區那誠如剛才委員說的區間車是可以帶動人潮到不同的點位所以我們現在規劃有兩個部分一個是有關於奮起湖的區間車一個是竹騎的區間車那奮起湖的區間車我們是用新買的這些生理號"},{"start":136.9,"end":162.816,"text":"的一個火車的車廂然後現在正在進行測試那預計在明年的中大概明年的中大概六月之前啦會完成完成了以後原來的這個所謂的所謂的那叫做阿里山號就會轉成一般的區間車所以在台生理號嘛藍色那一台生理號很漂亮很漂亮的生理號未來他就會取代了過去的阿里山號那阿里山號會轉成區間車這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":165.117,"end":184.499,"text":"是這樣子然後另外一個是竹崎的部分那竹崎車站現在正在蓋嘛那蓋好大概他們預計是115年蓋好那蓋好以後我們相關的區間車也會在116年上半年度就會來通行那我們希望說這是預計的時程我們希望說能夠越快是越好的這樣的話帶動一些觀光人潮"},{"start":185.34,"end":212.282,"text":"部長我想這個區間車真的是很重要因為點跟點之間的旅遊讓大家的停留時間越久而且阿里山事實上是很耐玩的這麼耐玩的地方你不讓他有機會去停留這個就很可惜好不好所以這個我想我們未來會持續推動部長跟林鐵樹可以先回我們現在請經濟部以及交通部的觀光署我們請經濟部還有交通部觀光署"},{"start":214.229,"end":239.947,"text":"交通部次長好了交通部次長就是還是延續剛剛的問題從丹麥斯造成的整個觀光產業可以看出整個國旅真的是下降而且現在國旅的天數創了10年的新低很多人選擇旅遊的時候可能會到外國去玩所以大概國旅的狀況是不好的"},{"start":240.908,"end":257.957,"text":"在台南嘉義又因為丹納斯之後那整個觀光也是非常的受創尤其是在山區啦那我想要請教的是說觀光署你們現在對於整個地方觀光的旅遊的一個恢復你們有怎樣的計畫嗎來交通部"},{"start":264.363,"end":292.699,"text":"主席 报告委员我们除了就是说我们管理处的这些设施事实上已经都尽快恢复那目前我们大概是行销就是扭转游客的部分这目前是阿里山是可以适合旅游那当然我们会配合第四季一些活动的部分去引导客人的赶快回到阿里山来旅游那我们会监测目前的一个所谓的住宿的部分目前是衣后的部分事实上是有一点往上升那可能要"},{"start":293.639,"end":320.658,"text":"給市場一點點時間我想這部分我們要恢復他們來阿里山旅遊的一個信心好 就是交通部這邊你們因為我們這一次是有編特別預算那兩年的時間讓你們執行所以我們希望這個特別預算至少這一筆錢這個是九億的嘛這個是九億你們一定要好好運用在這一次的災區怎麼去行銷觀光怎麼去讓整個旅遊業讓它可以再度蓬勃發展起來"},{"start":321.198,"end":343.805,"text":"這件事很重要是 我跟委員說明一下原則上因為觀光裡頭其實都有一個區域所以阿里山其實是一個很棒的一個觀光圈所以我們會協助這個觀光圈的業者如何多元的 辦理多元的活動或行銷那當然我們也有必要的時候也會補助地方政府有關相關的一個觀光活動好 那我直接來講"},{"start":347.046,"end":367.724,"text":"我直接來講那這個跟經濟部有關那交通部也是有關就是因為現在日本大阪市博那這一個科技館也就是我們大家說的我們台灣在那邊的展覽館那這個展覽館呢他在市博後他就即將會告他的一個階段性任務就結束了"},{"start":368.044,"end":386.031,"text":"那這個經濟部在這裡事實上也是投資了20億然後造成很多的觀光客很多人都站在大阪市博鳥都耳勒公說有的展館看起來台灣館最好最耐看而且最有它的一個意義整個把台灣的行銷從台灣的產業台灣走向AI科技島"},{"start":390.413,"end":416.336,"text":"哇 大家都覺得很讚那我現在具體來做一個建議因為在過去的時候我們也有跟前部長郭志輝前部長也有跟他建議當時他沒有反對就是說明年的台灣燈會明年台灣燈會在嘉義那我們有沒有機會把大阪市博的這一個科技館這一個台灣館把它帶回來明年的燈會明年的燈會可以一併的展出呢那這是不是請經濟部長"},{"start":418.223,"end":430.001,"text":"讓他促成說明年的台灣燈會也可以讓我們台灣自己的人也可以來看到去大阪市博才看得到的這樣的一個台灣的一個館"},{"start":431.34,"end":449.334,"text":"台灣的場館我們的確有在討論也跟行政院在討論說什麼樣的部分要遷回來整個館遷回來大概不太可能因為他要拆掉那個地要還給他們大阪那回來的項目是什麼然後地點在哪裡然後時間有多長"},{"start":450.342,"end":475.522,"text":"这个的确有在讨论当中对 那我现在就是说因为回来可能未来会放在某一个地点这我们现在不知道嘛那我们是说至少在明年的台湾灯会的一个展览的项目里面大家一样可以看得到这一次大阪世博这个台湾馆的展览的一个内容那可不可以吗如果有展演的部分或者是因为它要有一个空间"},{"start":476.516,"end":501.258,"text":"有一個密閉的空間我們再討論一下看看有什麼樣的項目它是在密閉空間空間我們地方可以盤整出來但是如果有這樣的一個館的一個展出我覺得對於明年我們整個燈會的一個能看度又會大幅的提升我跟經濟部來協助做這一塊交通部這邊也可以協助這樣好不好"},{"start":502.032,"end":511.684,"text":"我們也來配合配好那這件事把它促成拜託主席可以再給我1分鐘嗎來我們再請工程會那經濟部跟交通部可以先回謝謝好"},{"start":519.611,"end":534.11,"text":"工程會那我還是長話短說因為這一次我們知道這個特別預算特別條例裡面它涉及到了兩年內必須要執行因為這個預算就只框了兩年所以時間是很趕的但是我們知道"},{"start":535.352,"end":561.288,"text":"這個災後是百廢待新啊很多工程要推動但是現在工程的推動會遇到一個障礙就是說因為我們基於這個採購須知他的叫做預付的款項不得預30%但是我們知道說現在欠缸很嚴重事實上對很多承包商來說他就標一案然後他我就先拿30%而已對他來說他沒有辦法有能量去多做一點"},{"start":562.248,"end":588.676,"text":"因為現在欠工所以很多他的下包商都是跟他要現金他就是要付現金所以對他來說他的整個能量不足他沒有辦法像以前一樣周轉順利所以我們是不是能夠在特別條例的時候然後打破這個採購須知30%的限制讓廠商更有能量去把一些承包的工程更快的時間把它完成"},{"start":590.421,"end":600.127,"text":"那跟委員報告其實這個那個預付款這件事情當然是方便廠商但是預付款也根據我們的押寶辦法裡面他也要提廠商要提出同額的擔保"},{"start":601.55,"end":625.985,"text":"那所以提高這個預付款的比例到底是不是真的能夠增加廠商的靈活度解決廠商的問題這個我們可以待會去研議對因為同樣的嘛因為他必須要提擔保啊所以同樣意思是說你讓他可以讓預付款讓他可以增加因為他主要是他的現金流不足那為什麼會現金流不足呢就是現在他的小包商都要拿現金跟以前晚一號用開票的比較不一樣他們現在要現金"},{"start":630.57,"end":647.388,"text":"這個還是源到於說現在缺工啦 欠工的問題啦所以這個問題我們要整併解決 然後這一次的災後的這樣一個重建條例我們才推得快啊 好不好好 謝謝謝謝義瑜委員 也謝謝我們公共工程委員會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1292,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時7分）謝謝主席，我們是不是先請農業部跟林保署？"],["主席：好，請部長跟林保署署長。"],["蔡委員易餘：我簡單問部長，丹娜絲颱風之後可以說是重創了整個嘉義，尤其是山區的旅遊，每次聽到颱風，阿里山公路有出狀況的話，基本上並不會只有在災情期間影響觀光客，它後續會影響一段時間，因為大家都會想不知道山路恢復的狀況怎麼樣，大家會持續觀望一下，因此暑假阿里山的觀光沒有以往的理想，這是大家看得到的，所以我們現在基本上要加速恢復地方的觀光產業。","我第一個想要問的就是關於阿里山林鐵，上一次我辦考察時有要求阿里山的森林鐵路應該要加開區間車，因為有區間車才可以讓一些觀光客不用急著當天晚返，他可以選擇坐區間車，他就可以在阿里山或者是竹崎、畚箕湖、梅山做點跟點的旅遊，不用去了之後還要趕在同一天回來，區間車有這樣的一個好處。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：想要請教部長，整個區間車的規劃狀況呢？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的質詢，因為阿里山是臺灣非常棒的一個風景區，誠如剛才委員說的，區間車可以在不同的點位帶動人潮，所以我們現在規劃有兩個部分，一個是有關於畚箕湖的區間車，另一個是竹崎的區間車，畚箕湖的區間車是用新買的森里號火車車廂，現在進行測試，預計在明年中，大概明年6月之前會完成，完成了以後，原來的阿里山號會轉成一般的區間車。"],["蔡委員易餘：這一臺藍色的森里號很漂亮，未來它就會取代過去的阿里山號，阿里山號會轉成區間車，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是，是這樣子，另外一個是竹崎的部分，竹崎車站現在正在蓋……"],["蔡委員易餘：對。"],["陳部長駿季：他們預計是115年蓋好，蓋好以後相關區間車也會在116年上半年度就會通行，這是預計的時程，我們希望能夠越快越好，這樣可以帶動一些觀光人潮。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，區間車真的很重要，因為點跟點之間的旅遊，讓大家停留的時間久一點，而且阿里山事實上是很耐玩的，這麼耐玩的地方，不讓他有機會停留，這就會很可惜，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想未來我們還會持續推動，部長跟林保署可以先請回。","我們現在請經濟部以及交通部觀光署。"],["主席：我們請經濟部還有交通部觀光署，有來嗎？請交通部次長好了。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，請交通部次長。"],["主席：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：還是延續剛剛的問題，從丹娜絲造成整個觀光產業的衝擊，可以看出整個國旅真的下降，而且現在國旅的天數創了10年新低，很多人選擇旅遊的時候，可能會到國外玩，所以國旅的狀況是不好的。臺南、嘉義又因為丹娜絲之後，整個觀光也是非常受創，尤其是在山區。我想要請教觀光署，你們現在對於整個地方觀光旅遊的恢復，有怎樣的計畫嗎？交通部。"],["黃副署長勢芳：報告委員，除了我們管理處的這些設施，事實上都已經儘快恢復，目前我們大概是行銷，扭轉遊客的部分，阿里山是適合旅遊的，當然我們會配合第四季的一些活動，去引導客人趕快回到阿里山旅遊，我們也會監測住宿的部分，目前疫後事實上是有一點往上升，可能要給市場一點點時間，我想這部分，我們要恢復他們來阿里山旅遊的信心。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，交通部這邊，因為我們這次是有編特別預算，兩年的時間讓你們執行，所以我們希望這個特別預算，至少這19億你們一定要好好運用，這次的災區怎麼去行銷觀光、怎麼讓整個旅遊業可以再度蓬勃發展起來，這件事很重要。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，跟委員說明一下，因為觀光裡頭都有一個區域，阿里山其實是一個很棒的觀光圈，所以我們會協助觀光圈的業者如何辦理多元的活動或行銷，當然，我們會在必要的時候，也會補助地方政府相關觀光的活動，我們會好好利用這筆經費。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那我就直接講，這個跟經濟部、交通部有關，因為現在日本大阪世博的科技館，也就是大家說的臺灣在那邊的展覽館。這個展覽館在世博後，它的階段性任務就結束了，事實上經濟部在這裡也投資了20億，很多很多觀光客都有去，在看完大阪世博之後都被稱讚，是所有展館中臺灣館看起來最好、最耐看，而且最有它的意義，把臺灣整個行銷，從臺灣的產業、臺灣走向AI科技島，哇！大家都覺得很讚。","我現在具體做一個建議，因為在過去，我們有跟郭智輝前部長建議，當時他沒有反對，就是明年臺灣燈會在嘉義，我們有沒有機會把大阪世博的科技館、臺灣館帶回來，在明年的燈會可以一併展出呢？這是不是請經濟部長看看有沒有辦法來協助這件事情？促成明年的臺灣燈會，也可以讓臺灣人看到要去大阪世博才看得到的臺灣展館？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們的確有在討論，也跟行政院在討論什麼樣的部分要遷回來，整個館要遷回來大概不太可能，因為它要拆掉，地要還給大阪，那回來的項目是什麼？地點在哪裡？時間有多長？這個的確有在討論當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：我現在是說，因為回來之後，未來可能會放在某一個地點，這我們現在不知道，我們是說至少規劃在明年臺灣燈會的展覽項目裡面，讓大家一樣可以看得到這次大阪世博臺灣館的展覽內容，可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：如果有展演的部分或者是……因為它要有一個密閉的空間，我們再討論看看有什麼樣的項目可以在燈會裡面……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，它是在密閉空間，空間部分我們地方也可以盤整出來，但是如果有這樣一個館的展出，我覺得對於明年整個燈會的可看度，又會大幅的提升，我覺得經濟部來協助做這一塊，交通部也可以協助，這樣好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們也來配合。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這一件事把它促成。","拜託主席，可以再給我1分鐘嗎？","我們再請工程會。經濟部跟交通部可以先請回。"],["主席：我們請工程會，謝謝。"],["李副主任委員怡德：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：工程會，我還是長話短說，因為這一次的特別預算的特別條例裡面，它涉及到兩年內必須要執行，因為這個預算就只匡了兩年，時間是很趕的。但是我們知道災後是百廢待興，很多工程要推動，但是現在工程的推動會遇到一個障礙，因為我們基於採購須知，它的預付款項不得逾30%，但是我們知道現在缺工很嚴重，事實上，對很多承包商來說，他就只標1案，只有辦法先拿到30%而已，對他來說，他沒有能量多做一點，因為現在缺工，很多下包商都是跟他要現金，就是要付現金，對他來說整個能量不足，他沒有辦法像以前一樣順利周轉，所以我們是不是能夠在執行特別條例的時候，打破採購須知30%的限制，讓廠商更有能量去把一些承包工程在更快的時間完成？"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告，其實預付款這件事情，當然是方便廠商，但是預付款也根據押保辦法裡面，廠商也要提出同額的擔保，所以提高預付款的比例，到底是不是真的能夠增加廠商的靈活度、解決廠商的問題？這個我們可以帶回去研議。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，因為同樣的他必須要提擔保啊！所以同樣的意思是，你讓預付款可以增加，因為主要是因為他的現金流不足，為什麼會現金流不足呢？就是現在他的下包商都要拿現金，跟以前願意讓他用開票的比較不一樣，他們現在要現金，如果不給現金，他就要漲價。"],["李副主任委員怡德：這個我們拿回去研究。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個還是因為現在缺工的問題，所以這些問題我們要整併、解決，我們在這次災後重建條例才會推得快，好不好？"],["李副主任委員怡德：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝易餘委員，也謝謝公共工程委員會。我想剛剛易餘提到的部分，因為我們剛好上個禮拜經濟委員會有去考察，我想易餘的意見非常好，就是怎麼讓臺灣也可以看到我們世博的驕傲，我們真的看到用AI科技，在簡單的狀態之下，講了我們的生命力、從山跟水介紹我們的地理環境，也介紹了我們的護國神山、晶片。所以這個部分，我們要用什麼方式……或許大家在那個地方會感受不一樣，可是如果拉回臺灣，我們要用什麼方式不同的呈現，因為AI是變動的，所以我覺得這個部分是經濟部可以去考量的，就是同樣在燈會當中，是不是有一個仿造世博的場館，但是裡面的內容要做調整，因為如果在臺灣介紹臺灣的阿里山跟玉山可能感受度不高，可是我們要怎麼改變，我覺得這個部分可以去思考一下，謝謝易餘，謝謝。","現在請陳超明委員、陳超明，陳超明委員不在。","請盧縣一委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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跟委員回答兩件事那個匯兌成本它對應會有匯兌的損益這是只是成本的部分它工具的成本當然對 這個不是它真正的最後做匯兌的那個數字再來第二個 其實應該講我們現在國內有很多投資機會"},{"start":121.775,"end":135.169,"text":"但是呢保險業最重要購買的標的是固定收益的特別是債券公司債台灣的債券市場確實在規模上是相對於其他對嘛所以你買美債你買美債你的虧損就一直匯兌下來你的匯損就這麼多啊"},{"start":139.584,"end":153.337,"text":"對 這匯水有時候是會像比如今年上半年是匯收益這個是因為匯率是會波動不是這樣所以它是確實面對到這個波動的風險但是不見得都是不好的這是一個"},{"start":154.278,"end":180.796,"text":"上下波動的風險那這樣波動的風險我們怎麼應對呢對 所以說這也是剛剛委員有提到說委員你就想一下保險公司投資在海外通常是可能幾十年一二十年都不會匯回但是我們的匯率是全部都要算波動所以它的損益很多都是叫未實現的損益在帳戶上波動這個波動很大所以保險公司就要花很多的避險成本去避帳戶上面的波動實際上它不是現金流的匯對匯出"},{"start":181.957,"end":193.214,"text":"通常我們避險是要做什麼就是我有現金流進流出因為會有賄損所以我要做工具這個受險一個特別的地方我們也是希望說未來怎麼想辦法把這個把它扭轉過來"},{"start":194.775,"end":213.382,"text":"那你這個想辦法要什麼時候告訴我們有什麼辦法其實我們很快就會提出我們的方法什麼時候提出方法我想年底以前一定會跟委員報告好 年底以前提出方法因為我們也非常的希望你既然承認說國內沒有標的義務那你是不是可以去研議是不是可以適度的開放"},{"start":214.951,"end":236.126,"text":"這個都是在你的研擬範圍內現在我們也在盡量的就看看透過跨部會剛剛那個委員有提到怎麼樣台灣其實需要很多的建設需要很多的建設國發會就有一個兆元基金啊他在做啊其實這我們有參與我們也在尋找更多的標的我們也下降了保險業投資國內標的一些障礙擴大開放國內的標的物"},{"start":240.305,"end":267.132,"text":"以及保障我們受險人員的一個安全度嘛這安全是沒有問題啦這個風險是由保險公來承擔不是由客戶來承擔所以一定要好好的你年底就會告訴我們你的方法要怎麼做怎麼樣去配合我們的資本制度來做所謂的他的資產負債的年底的時候告訴社會大眾對 我會把這個方案跟大家做說明好 謝謝ETF市場表面很熱絡但是實際上操作"},{"start":268.392,"end":293.553,"text":"實際上操作我們看到在整個結構性的一個風險當中跟他的不當行為我們看到很多投薪他為了搶市佔率所以他訂定高一點的高募集的這個責任額度那迫使基層的音樂園他必須甚至他招不到他自己自掏腰包用盡各種方式那在基金上這個上市之後立即倒貨"},{"start":296.037,"end":323.045,"text":"讓這個規模立即的會縮水價格撲發那不僅會讓投資人他不信任而且會凸顯到整個市場的監管的一個缺口影響到投資人的一個權益所以本席要在這邊請教本席要在這邊請教我們看到10月2號的時候呢那5月份有多檔的ETF不到一個禮拜就七成七成的籌碼"},{"start":324.813,"end":351.588,"text":"就倒出不到一個禮拜我們又看到81%的ETF的當天上市當天就破發在這樣的一個情況之下不僅影響到整個投資人的一個信任剛剛本席特別強調監管的缺口那所以請教主委你要怎麼樣重建市場的一個信任你要怎麼樣去遏止虛擬募集的一個行為請教主委"},{"start":352.524,"end":375.164,"text":"你的KPI以及你的制定到底要怎麼做對 我想這個前一陣子確實引發很多的關注後來全經理也有到我們這邊來針對員工的權益跟我們做一些討論我們也採取一些行動我想我們可以提一個書面報告給委員這個非常重要我們不希望讓國人不信任不希望讓基層的這一些人員"},{"start":377.503,"end":395.618,"text":"他被壓榨到這種程度81%當天破發這個是監管會您的責任必須要將你的KPI以及你的監管方式必須要說明導正市場秩序維護投資人權益跟勞工的這些的那個我們都會來"},{"start":396.559,"end":421.656,"text":"最後一個議題我公開給我們金管會金管會我看到我們全球金融版的一個重組我也看到我們有八家的公股銀行六家提出退出退出在哪裡在澳洲緬甸大陸歐洲在這樣子的一個情況之下到底是什麼原因我們自己公股銀行八家有六家提出退出那這樣子等於我們"},{"start":422.797,"end":438.61,"text":"整個的整體性的國家級的一個評估那麼是不是會有股牌效應讓我們的公股銀行集體的退出削弱我們整個在金融外交國際布局的一個量能呢請教其實我剛才"},{"start":439.571,"end":459.317,"text":"稍早有委員問到這個問題我說其實我們的國營不是只有關股關股他基於自己營運的目的去做整併那是他們經營的問題我們關注的是這樣有沒有不符合公司治理還有整個的他們的整個的策略他來跟我們報告但是我們要看的是台灣還有很多其他的銀行"},{"start":460.217,"end":485.541,"text":"當然啦 但是你基本是我們自己的功苦功苦就是如此了我們深怕的是我們被國際金融邊緣化其實不會啦我們國營可以看到我們國營在今年在海外的表現的占比呢一直越來越重要這也代表我們國營啊所以這一點我們也特別因為國營總是一個指標嘛那您必須要看為什麼他們會退出什麼樣的原因會不會影響到你也順便資料給本席好 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吳麗華委員質詢林德福委員 林德福委員不在我們請吳麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請經濟部長我們請部長"},{"start":30.735,"end":48.301,"text":"部長好其實我談到災害復原其實等一下要問的面向蠻廣的涉及到各部會但是因為我最後的訴求是有關電網跟無人機所以特別請部長部長我們都知道全球的災害頻繁"},{"start":49.461,"end":75.179,"text":"已经是一个不可逆的现象所以在立法院有这么多的委员不断的就各种诉求来做质询其实我们希望的就是不要一而再再而三的不断的质询不断的质询但是我们都没有看到结果那我们看看这一次假设以丹纳斯来讲他横扫全台其实造成了72万户的停电"},{"start":75.859,"end":90.727,"text":"我們有在新聞那畫面我們都看得到台電員工不分日夜沒日沒夜的在那個地方搶修大家看了也很難過那民間的投入也很多那我自己呢就丹納斯"},{"start":91.887,"end":112.016,"text":"災害的一些範圍例如像阿里山鄉或者是高雄的那馬下桃園茂林一直到屏東的三地門霧台等等等到台東幾乎有災害的園鄉我大概都有去看過那我要特別就是要講看一下這個畫面其實我到了現場"},{"start":113.417,"end":142.638,"text":"災民看到我們來會抱著我們哭甚至是像這些公路局的這些員工有時候我們只是輕輕的跟他們講說辛苦了他們也會在我們的面前哽咽 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Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：對我們經濟部來講，因為油、糖、水、電屬於關鍵基礎設施，我們也都會編，巡防、巡檢等等的情況，其他部分包括內政部也一樣，他們都會編，所以量就會擴充起來，之前也有委員關心我們平常是不是要有一些演練，我想我們這個部分會跟行政院說明，如果演練也把這個項目放進去的話，我想會更好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長，因為我自己也關心過、開過記者會，也問過要怎麼職訓、怎麼考照，確實法規有一些需要鬆綁的部分，但另外一個我特別關心的是斷水、斷路的問題，這次的霧鹿、利稻在9月23日發生斷路，同時斷電、斷網，一直到9月25號部落的人爬到山上有微弱訊號的地方，把災況用照片放送出來，我們才接到陳情，我們感到很意外，這還是屬於省道、公路局管轄，那一般的道路怎麼辦？在這個部分，當然我要特別感謝，我們聯絡NCC、中華電信或者是空勤總隊，他們都很快速的在當天接到我們的陳情之後處理需要洗腎的患者，隔天馬上恢復通訊，當然我們覺得做得很快，但我們還是要講一下，裡面斷電、斷訊，過去台電有推動防災型的微電網，但後來我們看到好像就沒有了，是因為沒有經費嗎？","我們現在有一個新的陳情，我們到部落送物資，他們最喜歡的是發電機，我們要到處募發電機給他們，政府一直說要推微電網，甚至一些有微電網的部落好像也不知道要怎麼讓它發揮功能。部長，這個部分未來可以怎麼做？"],["龔部長明鑫：這一次特別預算裡面有8億，特別要做一個示範性的，如果這個示範性做得很好，我們經過盤點……事實上內政部經過盤點有兩百二十幾處的孤島，其中有五十幾處有這樣的需求，這9個示範性做得好的話，我們就會推廣到那五十幾個地區，把它完成。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是這樣想，颱風進來或者地震來襲，我們都無法預測從哪裡進來，哪一些地方會受災，我們希望這樣的經費能夠編足，能夠全面的來做、全面的預防，因為這已經是不可逆的，我們勢必會面對，所以希望經濟部能夠再來看看怎麼樣加速，我希望大概兩個禮拜之內可以得到這些答案嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我們跟內政部來討論一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，謝謝部長。","我們現在請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","許宇甄、許宇甄，許宇甄委員不在。","我們請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","呂玉玲","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","賴瑞隆","賴惠員","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","盧縣一","陳冠廷","洪孟楷","張嘉郡","蘇清泉","陳超明","沈伯洋","高金素梅"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長、經濟部部長、原住民族委員會首長、國家通訊傳播委員會首長、行政院公共工\n程委員會首長、行政院主計總處首長、內政部首長、教育部首長、交通部首長、環境部首長、文\n化部首長、勞動部首長及衛生福利部首長就「丹娜絲颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建情形」進行報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00003"}}},{"id":"164045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc6e7aa3fd0bb82dffeadaba873199798254e55ddf1b168a313e63146d6c8f82985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"11:54:10 - 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最近在屏東有查獲一件豬腸它使用工業用雙氧水漂白的食安事件我首先要請教署長 在這件事情之後這件事情之所以被發現是請教你們是由民眾檢舉還是說由你們南區主動稽查發現的這個是民眾檢舉在6月份的時候"},{"start":40.489,"end":66.739,"text":"好 謝謝那署長您是這個醫學背景的專家應該要很清楚就是說這個實案的問題就是說我們越早發現就可以越早阻斷那阻斷民眾去使用就可以避免後續很多疾病的發生那醫生也就不用耗費心力去治療也可以避免耗費很多的健保資源所以署長的職責是相當重要的"},{"start":68.139,"end":83.328,"text":"這次的事件本市有注意到你們在不到一周的時間就調查就查了查清楚這個問題豬場的流布那回收下架了未使用的豬場同時呢也給予這些不肖業者"},{"start":85.41,"end":113.084,"text":"相当重的这个重罚那本席基本上要肯定食药署这一次的这个危机处理的能力但是呢还是有部分的这个问题猪肠被民众使用了所以我想这件事我们还是有可以有检讨的空间我另外要请教就是说这批违法猪肠到底还有就是有多少是被民众吃下肚的"},{"start":114.079,"end":131.387,"text":"後來我們精算包括我們在風存的部分目前是1264604公斤的風存到最末梢的所謂的肉店裡面購買我們在現場查扣其實145公斤"},{"start":132.828,"end":151.754,"text":"整體我們加起來真的在這個過程中讓國人因為這樣子進入市場而食用有784公斤那這個部分我們在部長特別指示之下我們對於整個流程我們也做很多行政上目前持續在檢討當中所以就是你們的精算是784"},{"start":153.735,"end":166.83,"text":"784公斤流入市面被民眾吃下肚是的那在這批百威在這批之前就是他們還進了多少豬大腸你們有調查嗎"},{"start":168.79,"end":184.3,"text":"這邊跟委員進一步說明因為這家廠商他完全連登記都沒有登記所以是第一個所以他被罰了300萬的未登記那也沒有GHP所以在這種前提之下我們的確不是能夠確確的掌握之前的一個完全的狀況"},{"start":185.26,"end":204.631,"text":"但是我們一起動了解他從6月18號我們看到他的所謂進出的貨單裡面把所有的把他調出來之後得到的剛才的一張說明的簡單的數字在這個之前我是說在這一批之前你們是調不到數據沒有辦法掌握"},{"start":206.567,"end":226.263,"text":"那這部分跟委員報告檢方在部分已經有查扣相關的資訊那我們也有去跟檢方去協調能不能取得更前部分的一些資料我想這個部分是很重要的所以你們有主動跟檢方去要他之前的這個進口的這個數量"},{"start":229.085,"end":246.467,"text":"對 目前我們都有提出了好 那這樣子表示你們有意識到這個問題那所以後續呢也麻煩食藥署持續的追蹤把這個就是百威之前所進的這個豬大腸那個數量要麻煩你們還是要估算一下"},{"start":247.368,"end":265.156,"text":"因為畢竟我想這個已經有不良前科那過去他們這一家在應該基本上都是用同樣的方式用雙氧水工業用雙氧水去洗這個豬大腸的這個量你們後續在有掌握到資訊的時候再麻煩跟我們辦公室說一下"},{"start":268.597,"end":290.048,"text":"基本上本土新鮮的豬腸應該是不需要再使用雙氧水去漂白因為新鮮的豬腸基本上它就白得還滿漂亮的事件過後高雄市政府調查630家及屏東縣政府調查了84家業者總共700多家全數都合格"},{"start":290.768,"end":310.14,"text":"那有需要用雙氧水清洗賣相差的應該是國外進口來的這個部分是需要經過關務署來放行那請教一下署長就是食藥署對於國外進口的食材有沒有掌握進口的品項數量跟進口商的資料"},{"start":311.341,"end":339.858,"text":"這部分跟委員進一步說明因為關務署進來我們在邊境的時候事實上我們用所謂的邊境的BPI protection保護的人工智慧的系統裡面所以關務署的資料跟我們這邊進來的資料在邊境裡面是非常清楚的所有的相關的數字對 因為主要是我這樣問主要還是關心就是說如果說你們這些都可以掌握的話那應該就是可以掌握百威之前他們所有進口的數量"},{"start":341.007,"end":363.927,"text":"就是說這一次的案件裡面就我們了解是在所謂屠宰場旁邊那個貨櫃屋裡面其實是相對直接是在場內的我們目前的資訊掌握好像並沒有是場外的或者進口進來的出廠在這邊做進一步的加工我想這個問題你們有必要你們有必要可以再去了解一下是的 一定會的"},{"start":364.668,"end":384.539,"text":"那我再請教就是說你們各區北中南管理中心對於這個轄區的食品業者有沒有登記列管這個都是有在機械登記的列管這家是非常特殊的他連登記都沒有登記重點是就是說那有登記列管這些然後登記之後你們是如何管理怎麼管啊有列管啊你們怎麼管"},{"start":391.892,"end":415.04,"text":"我們其實每一家廠商它必須要符合第一個GHP的管理那對於食品的廠不同的廠的一個規模大小它必須要做成品 半成品進來之後完全它的批次所謂的電子發票跟電子登錄目前剛才部長也有進一步說明都達到九成以上"},{"start":415.74,"end":440.409,"text":"那如果沒有去做登錄的我們其實按照三法的違法在48條的時候可以罰三萬到三百萬的一個經費目前我們持續會讓他的登錄能夠更完整電子發票的勾結能夠更明顯的完成好 那個經濟部登記的公司行號如果是做這個食品加工進口業 進口的業者你們食藥署有 就是"},{"start":441.625,"end":447.654,"text":"有沒有建立資料庫去了解就是說相關的營運銷貨跟環境管理啦"},{"start":449.266,"end":478.327,"text":"有吗是的有的我们登录的时候因为这家厂商营运销货跟环境管理因为厂商他们会预登记所以他预登记的跟我们的厂商之间会有差异所以我们七十几万家的食品厂里面我们今年度查起来有四万两千家其实是中间是有差异的所以我们目前直接就折成卫生局针对这四万两千家进一步去查查他的所谓的登记项目跟所谓的营业项目的部分能够达到一致"},{"start":478.527,"end":499.765,"text":"我想是這樣因為本席想要建議一下就是說在過去你們可以拿出去處理醬油業者的那種精神跟魄力去處理這些就是豬大腸的這個事件應該就可以立刻被解決因為這個是發生在署長來之前你們可以好好去了解一下"},{"start":500.546,"end":529.184,"text":"好的 谢谢委员用对地方那再从这一次的这个事件虽然你们有就是说立即的处理能力算是不错但是如果说你们可以在第一时间就掌握了这个就掌握就可以避免这个问题猪肠流出被使用这部分是需要靠平时的这个基本控那举例而言就是说进口的猪肠长途运送的这个过程当中容易变色产生腥味"},{"start":530.244,"end":550.058,"text":"部分的中盤商還有這個或者食品加工業者他們為了賣相好那本來就很容易去漂白嘛廠商他可以選擇合法的這個食品級的雙氧水那他也有可能使用的這個違法的工業級的雙氧水所以"},{"start":550.898,"end":570.272,"text":"需要不定期的不斷的去稽查那對於這個合法的這個廠商該有的稽查頻率需要你們考量就是有限的人力跟物力所以我相信就是說相較於這個藥品的管理這個食品的管理其實它是更加複雜的"},{"start":572.673,"end":582.98,"text":"目前想再請教署長就是說你們有沒有針對這個進口食材有這個積茶頻率的數據或者是說有積茶百分比的數據"},{"start":585.063,"end":601.409,"text":"我們對於進口的產品其實在邊境裡面就會進入於攔截所以這個攔截我們常態的是在5到10%如果對於它過去的違規的違法行為裡面一旦被查查之後我們現在剛才提到BPI會隨著它的"},{"start":603.83,"end":625.427,"text":"過去的歷史而調高他的風險最高是調到每一竹匹的茶茶5%到10%10%到50%甚至進一步到100%因為每一次的這個食安的事件很多啦就是我的理解我們看到常常就是說最多"},{"start":626.147,"end":654.378,"text":"就是說主要都有民眾檢舉嘛或者競爭對手的檢舉最多常遇到這樣子嘛那再來就是說等媒體爆料啦或者明帶質詢啦這個也不少那再來就是你們的主動調查大概不出這三大類那我們其實也會了解說這三類的比例大概是多少署長有沒有了解"},{"start":656.099,"end":682.58,"text":"其實在我們邊境以及我們的資訊系統面攔查了還是佔了一定的比例因為這樣子的其實都不會特別被揭露出來但不可否認就是大部分的比例是民眾檢舉或者是競爭對手的檢舉這個幾乎是佔相當大的比例吧這個的確是有一定的比例那我想是說重點是不管是怎麼樣就是說在就是說"},{"start":683.62,"end":710.111,"text":"你們後續那個放行之後進來之後那放行之後有沒有查驗或者是出事了之後再去做這個亡羊補牢的時候調查我們其實在前端的攔截以外後市場的稽查每一年我們都有特定的專案性的稽查是常態性的因為現在是有這個除了對於合法廠商不定期稽查那非法的地下廠商你們其實根本是"},{"start":711.824,"end":740.725,"text":"也很難說積極的去主動調查就這個部分跟委員報告一下我們針對的所謂的登記跟實際上營業的部分我們在跨部會我們會積極的更把現在遇到的一些需要更能夠勾結更完整的所以剛才提到的比如說營業相次跟一些登記的相次跟實際上營業上面沒辦法吻合的4.2萬家我們就會交衛生局積極的去查"},{"start":741.306,"end":756.524,"text":"就是市要署的人力物力是有限啦就是說當然我們盡量去滿足這個人力上的需求還有這個經費上的需求但是我們的責任是要把這些經費跟人力全部把它規劃好"},{"start":757.885,"end":784.71,"text":"那我们国内很多专业的团体跟非政府组织那一起也可以一起来为国家的食品食安来把关所以很多的公权力我们也可以委托来使用那特别是样品的取得化验都可以跟外界来做结合那这样还有进口食材这个流布厂商的必要管理我们很重要我现在要讲就是说建立电子化的这个资料库我想是要做这个呃"},{"start":786.17,"end":799.113,"text":"很重要的建议这个资料库的建议是对我们未来的食安管理是很重要的所以这个部分希望你们能够多加油是的 谢谢谢谢委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":786,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（11時54分）謝謝主席，我們請衛福部部長先休息一下，請食藥署署長。"],["主席：請食藥署姜署長。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。最近在屏東有查獲一件豬腸使用工業用雙氧水漂白的食安事件，我首先要請教署長，這件事情之所以被發現，是由民眾檢舉還是由你們南區主動稽查發現的？"],["姜署長至剛：這個是民眾檢舉，在6月份的時候。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。署長，您是有醫學背景的專家，應該要很清楚，食安問題是越早發現就可以越早阻斷；而阻斷民眾食用就可以避免後續很多疾病的發生，醫師也就不用耗費心力去治療，也可以避免耗費很多的健保資源，所以署長的職責是相當重要的。針對這次的事件，本席有注意到你們在不到一週的時間就調查清楚豬腸的流布，回收、下架了未使用的豬腸，同時也給予這些不肖業者相當重的重罰。本席基本上要肯定食藥署這一次的危機處理能力，但還是有部分的豬腸被民眾食用了，所以我想這件事你們還是有可以檢討的空間。我另外要請教，這批違法豬腸到底有多少是被民眾吃下肚？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，後來我們精算，包括我們封存的部分，目前是1萬2,604公斤封存，到最末梢所謂的肉店裡面購買，我們現場查扣的其實是145公斤。整體加起來，真的在這個過程中，讓國人因為這樣子進入市場而食用的有784公斤。這個部分在部長的特別指示之下，我們目前對於整個流程也做很多行政上的持續檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：你們精算是……"],["姜署長至剛：784公斤。"],["陳委員瑩：784公斤流入市面被民眾吃下肚？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["陳委員瑩：百威在這批之前，他們還進了多少豬大腸？你們有調查嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員進一步說明，因為這家廠商完全連登記都沒有登記，這是第一個，所以它被罰了300萬的未登記，也沒有GHP，因此在這種前提之下，我們的確不是能夠確切地掌握之前的完全狀況，但是我們一啟動了解，它從6月18號，我們看到進出貨單裡面，把所有的調出來之後，得到剛才所說明的簡單數字。"],["陳委員瑩：在這一批之前，你們是調不到數據，也沒有辦法掌握它進口了多少豬大腸？"],["姜署長至剛：這部分跟委員報告，檢方已經有查扣相關的資訊，我們也有去跟檢方協調，看能不能取得更前部分的一些資料。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個部分是很重要的，所以你們有主動跟檢方去要它之前的進口數量？"],["姜署長至剛：對，目前我們都有提出了。"],["陳委員瑩：這樣子表示你們有意識到這個問題，後續也麻煩食藥署持續追蹤，百威之前所進的豬大腸數量，麻煩你們還是要估算一下，畢竟已經有不良前科。過去這一家應該基本上都是用同樣的方式，用工業用雙氧水去洗豬大腸，這個數量在你們後續有掌握到資訊的時候再麻煩跟我們辦公室說一下。"],["姜署長至剛：好的。"],["陳委員瑩：基本上，本土新鮮的豬腸應該是不需要再使用雙氧水去漂白，因為新鮮的豬腸就白得還蠻漂亮的。在這事件過後，高雄市政府調查630家、屏東縣政府調查84家業者，總共七百多家全數都合格！所以需要用雙氧水清洗，賣相差的應該是國外進口來的，這個部分是需要經過關務署放行。請教一下署長，食藥署對於國外進口的食材，有沒有掌握進口的品項、數量跟進口商的資料？"],["姜署長至剛：這部分跟委員進一步說明。因為關務署在邊境的時候，事實上我們用所謂邊境BPI保護的人工智慧系統，所以關務署的資料跟我們這邊進來的資料，在邊境裡面所有的相關數字是非常清楚的。"],["陳委員瑩：我會這樣問，主要還是關心，如果你們這些都可以掌握的話，應該就可以掌握百威之前所有進口的數量。"],["姜署長至剛：這一次的案件裡面，就我們了解是在所謂屠宰場旁邊的貨櫃屋裡面處理，其實相對來說是直接在廠內的，我們目前掌握的資訊好像並沒有是廠外的或者進口進來的豬腸在這邊做進一步的加工，目前是這樣。我們會進一步去了解。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個問題你們有必要再去了解一下。"],["姜署長至剛：是，一定會的。"],["陳委員瑩：我再請教，你們各區北、中、南管理中心，對於轄區的食品業者有沒有登記、列管？"],["姜署長至剛：這個都是有登記、列管。"],["陳委員瑩：有，但重點是……"],["姜署長至剛：這家非常特殊，他連登記都沒有登記。"],["陳委員瑩：重點是有登記列管的這些廠家，登記之後，你們是如何管理？有列管，那你們怎麼管？"],["姜署長至剛：每一家廠商，第一個，他必須要符合GHP的管理，對於不同食品廠的規模大小，他必須要在成品、半成品進來之後，要完成它的批次，所謂的電子發票跟電子登錄，剛才部長也有進一步說明，這都達到九成以上。","如果沒有去做登錄的，我們按照食安法的規定，違反第四十八條可以罰3萬到300萬的罰鍰，我們會持續讓他的登錄能夠更完整，電子發票的勾稽能夠更明顯完成。"],["陳委員瑩：好。經濟部登記的公司行號，如果是做食品加工進口業的業者，你們食藥署有沒有建立資料庫去了解相關的營運、銷貨跟環境管理？有嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：有的，我們登錄的時候，因為這些廠商……"],["陳委員瑩：營運、銷貨跟環境管理。"],["姜署長至剛：因為廠商他們會預登記，所以他預登記的跟我們掌握的廠商數量之間就會有差異。所以七十幾萬家的食品廠裡面，我們今年度查起來有4萬2,000家，其實中間是有差異的，所以我們目前直接就責成衛生局，針對這4萬2,000家進一步去查察他的登記項目跟營業項目的部分能夠達到一致。"],["陳委員瑩：本席想要建議一下，你們可以拿出過去處理醬油業者的那種精神跟魄力去處理豬大腸的事件，應該就可以立刻被解決。因為這個是發生在署長來之前，你們可以好好去了解一下。"],["姜署長至剛：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：用對地方。從這次的事件，雖然你們立即處理能力算是不錯，但是如果你們可以在第一時間就掌握好，就可以避免問題豬腸流出被使用，這部分是需要靠平時的基本功。","舉例而言，進口的豬腸在長途運送的過程中容易變色、產生腥味，部分的中盤商或者食品加工業者，他們為了賣相好，本來就很容易去漂白。廠商可以選擇合法食品級的雙氧水，那他也有可能使用違法工業級的雙氧水，所以需要不定期、不斷地去稽查。對於合法的廠商該有的稽查頻率，在有限的人力跟物力下，這都需要你們去考量，所以我相信，相較於藥品的管理，在食品的管理上其實是更加複雜的。","想再請教署長，你們目前有沒有針對進口食材的稽查頻率數據，或者稽查百分比的數據？"],["姜署長至剛：我們對於進口產品在邊境裡面就會進行攔截，攔截的頻率我們常態是5%到10%。如果他過去有違規、違法行為，一旦被查察之後，我們剛才提到BPI，會隨著他過去的歷史而調高他的風險，最高是調到每一個都逐批查察。"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛聽到是5%到10%……"],["姜署長至剛：5%到10%、10%到50%，甚至進一步到100%。"],["陳委員瑩：因為食安的事件很多，就我的理解上，我們看到常常都是民眾檢舉或者競爭對手檢舉，最常遇到這樣。再來就是媒體爆料，或者民代質詢，這個也不少。再來就是你們的主動調查，大概都不出這三大類。我們其實也會想了解這三類的比例大概是多少，署長有沒有了解？"],["姜署長至剛：其實在我們邊境以及我們的資訊系統裡面，攔查還是占了一定的比例，因為這樣的數據都不會特別被揭露出來。"],["陳委員瑩：但不可否認的是大部分的比例是民眾檢舉或者是競爭對手的檢舉，這占相當大的比例吧？"],["姜署長至剛：這個的確是有一定的比例。"],["陳委員瑩：好，不管是怎麼樣，重點是在放行進來之後，有沒有查驗？或者是出事了之後，再去做亡羊補牢的事後調查？"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實除了前端的攔截以外，後市場的稽查，每一年我們都有特定的專案性稽查，是常態性的。"],["陳委員瑩：現在除了對於合法廠商進行不定期稽查，那非法的地下廠商，你們很難說是積極去主動調查。"],["姜署長至剛：就這個部分跟委員報告一下，我們針對所謂的登記，跟實際上營業的部分，在跨部會我們會更積極的把現在遇到一些需要勾稽更完整的……剛才提到的，登記項次跟實際上營業上面沒辦法吻合的4.2萬家，我們就會就交衛生局積極去查察。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣，食藥署的人力、物力有限啦，當然我們儘量去滿足人力上的需求，還有經費上的需求，但是我們的責任是要把這些經費跟人力全部把它規劃好。我們國內有很多專業的團體跟非政府組織，也可以一起來為國家的食安來把關，所以很多的公權力我們也可以委託這些單位，特別是樣品的取得、化驗都可以跟外界來做結合，還有進口食材流布及廠商的必要管理。","我現在要講的很重要，就是建立電子化的資料庫，我要做這個很重要的建議！資料庫的建立對我們未來食安管理是很重要的，所以這個部分希望你們能夠多加油。"],["姜署長至剛：是的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言，也謝謝署長的回答。","下一位請邱志偉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc32d5827612c57638179f4a20aeac8eaf54e55ddf1b168a31cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:49:44 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謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的驗色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙"},{"start":126.46,"end":142.824,"text":"所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是霸體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是核道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它洩漏出去第三個是核體的加高那第四個是最重要的"},{"start":143.284,"end":166.672,"text":"那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%"},{"start":168.519,"end":183.472,"text":"那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹塞的情況"},{"start":184.173,"end":204.49,"text":"那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園"},{"start":206.078,"end":228.05,"text":"所以還有全台灣還有哪一邊是在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射五次範圍還有桃園新竹新竹還有桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹抱歉我小吃新竹嗎新竹還有幾有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控"},{"start":228.527,"end":243.023,"text":"好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說"},{"start":244.83,"end":259.393,"text":"就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡寫說在9月底其實在8月28你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底"},{"start":272.615,"end":301.614,"text":"才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安西建設無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵"},{"start":302.715,"end":331.899,"text":"包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係人的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說至少我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程"},{"start":333.005,"end":351.99,"text":"這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點清書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是"},{"start":353.427,"end":378.486,"text":"因為當然我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟教育就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說"},{"start":379.164,"end":390.582,"text":"因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做跟我們政府單位去做一個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說"},{"start":391.823,"end":413.113,"text":"我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上也有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好 謝謝 應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們是請劉部長"},{"start":420.301,"end":441.378,"text":"好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是克盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任"},{"start":441.894,"end":466.69,"text":"所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號"},{"start":467.952,"end":489.102,"text":"在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差"},{"start":490.11,"end":510.401,"text":"我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就相信他們"},{"start":511.201,"end":523.424,"text":"那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我所手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少 一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣 報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶但是呢 這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數 實居人數就是6843"},{"start":543.622,"end":564.431,"text":"是 所以6,843人 這個在網頁上面都有當時您所說的 您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5,348人不是 不是 報告委員 應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些有多少人"},{"start":565.171,"end":579.078,"text":"是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上"},{"start":581.019,"end":608.83,"text":"建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取垂直避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑好這個呢部分呢大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次左林岸的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓"},{"start":609.71,"end":639.277,"text":"一樓的空間而且呢大一部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也也也也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去"},{"start":639.917,"end":661.815,"text":"徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整所以部長我跟您請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息啊那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會不會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期"},{"start":663.47,"end":686.327,"text":"報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是說他們是肯認這個也是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在"},{"start":688.628,"end":708.065,"text":"歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者上第一線在協助疏散撤離的民民政或者社政的人人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內的搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好謝謝我們先休息"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時49分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。我們是不是先請農業部杜次長。"],["主席：請農業部杜次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：杜次長好。我們今天要討論有關於全國堰塞湖及馬太鞍溪堰塞湖的相關問題，根據新聞報導，馬太鞍溪堰塞湖目前的水位已經下降，可是現在依然是紅色警戒，這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心問題，看似好像已經解決的危機，為什麼還是紅色警戒，還是潛藏致命的風險，是不是代表這些堰塞湖的壩體結構問題，第一個是還沒有解決，如果下雨的話，潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在？本席也有讀了農業部的報告，從7月26日堰塞湖形成以後，我們27日就成立應變小組，也進行了很多的作為，不管是拍航照圖、召開專家諮詢會議、市場說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練，這些工作雖然很辛苦，我們也要給予肯定。","可是大家也知道目前的結果是很慘烈的，我們擔心的是現在的監測和會議沒有辦法把它轉化成有效的防災行動，所以我想要請教杜次長，現在貴部有沒有完成全國堰塞湖的總體檢驗，我們現在有多少個堰塞湖？哪些像馬太鞍溪一樣是屬於脆弱地質、且下游有密集人口的高風險堰塞湖，是不是可以請你回答？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，這個事情分兩部分來談，第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒；第二個是全國堰塞湖的監控。就花蓮的紅色警戒來看，如果要解除紅色警戒，特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙，所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件，第一個是壩體本身一定要繼續監測有沒有再潰堤的危險。第二個是河道本身的清疏，如果再有水下來的時候，要怎麼確認能不能夠把它洩流出去。第三個是河堤的加高。第四個最重要的是整個撤離的疏散計畫，如果再發生紅色警戒，真的溢流下來，不管是水、土、沙都好，裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1,837戶，而是有很多的志工人員。","就目前監測的範圍來看，雖然水量已經減少了，大概是原先水體的1.7%，目前看起來壩體是穩當的，但是如果有地震，邊坡其實還是會滑落。至於目前的水位監測，在河道的監測其實水位並沒有上升，表示這邊的溢流還是正常在走，並沒有堰塞的情況，旁邊的土堤也加高了，最重要的是現在在等花蓮縣政府的疏散計畫，如果整個確定好之後，這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整，這是回答剛剛委員的第一個問題。","第二個，關於全國堰塞湖的監測，我們有做一個全國的地圖、地資盤點，目前應該只有在桃園……"],["張委員智倫：所以全臺灣還有哪一邊是在監測？"],["杜次長文珍：在國有林地的部分，其實包括從航測、從衛星、從對照，除了現在的堰塞湖之外，還有新竹……"],["張委員智倫：桃園跟新竹還有就對了。"],["杜次長文珍：新竹還有一個，抱歉，我講錯了！"],["張委員智倫：新竹有幾個？"],["杜次長文珍：有一個，目前是安定的狀況，並沒有危險，但是還是在我們監控機制下。"],["張委員智倫：我想要拜託農業部，針對這次馬太鞍溪的事件，對於有些高風險的堰塞湖除了監測以外，還有沒有其他更積極的作為？其實對一般民眾而言，就花蓮馬太鞍溪的堰塞湖有沒有可能去做引流，或在事前可以做一些防救的措施？因為我看到你們今天的報告也提到，你們在8月28日有召開一個協調會，確認在9月底前可以疏濬60萬噸總量，這個時間點當時評估上發生了什麼問題，為什麼沒有把它提前？因為這是7月多的事情，為什麼到9月底才決定要有這樣子的目標？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，其實監測一直在做，而且監測是必要的，我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估，這是第一點。第二個，整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫，其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面，我們從7月26日確認馬太鞍溪堰塞湖形成之後，包括不管是農業部自己本身、經濟部水利署或者是交通部公路局、臺鐵，包括台電、NCC、花蓮縣政府以及3個受影響最大的鄉鎮，其實都已經列在所謂利害關係人的溝通裡面，所以我們把所有的狀況讓大家知道，這是第一點。","第二點才是要怎麼樣減災，曾經也有人講要不要爆破堰塞湖。"],["張委員智倫：次長，我請教一下，因為這個已經是會議的結論，當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提，比如在8月底就做這樣的工程？"],["杜次長文珍：這當中其實也有人提過要不要爆破堰塞湖，要不要來做虹吸，要不要來做挖管、埋管，其實這些都不可行，所有的方案我們都有考慮，這是第一點。第二點，清疏的部分也有加速在進行，包括土坡堤的加強防護，這都有在進行中。"],["張委員智倫：因為我們看到這本報告當然會想說，你們8月28日的會議結論如果可以往前提的話，是不是就可以避免這樣的災害發生？"],["杜次長文珍：這大概也是情境發生的狀況，在當下的情境是這樣走，特別是這次因為有樺加莎颱風，所以情形會不一樣。"],["張委員智倫：我還是要拜託各部會的溝通跟教育，就像剛剛很多委員有提到的，是不是應該要提前，因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經多次跟政府單位做一個提醒，發生這樣的事情，我們還是覺得非常的難過，包含剛剛你特別有提到的，新竹還有一個堰塞湖，所以基本上我們要讓民眾有知的權利，未來在通知民眾，讓他們有一個危機意識的部分，也希望政府單位這邊可以積極作為，好不好？"],["杜次長文珍：好，謝謝，該要提醒、該要預做準備的，我們一定全力來做，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝次長。我們是不是請劉部長？"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長，我想要請教內政部長的是，因為你也是指揮官，我要請教你有關於撤離的問題，今天內政部有提出一份18頁的報告，其中提到你們中央克盡職守，可是一開頭就引用地方制度法及防災法，強調疏散撤離是地方政府的責任，所以我們在擔心的是中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是出了問題？在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到，9月21日下午6點中央災害應變中心指揮官也就是你有明確指示，要求花蓮縣政府針對這1,837戶執行預防性疏散撤離，這個是命令，對不對？可是在9月23日下午潰堤的前一刻，花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到有5,239位民眾是採用垂直避難。我想要請教一下，這5,239位民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的預防性疏散撤離，這中間有沒有落差？"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚委員所指的落差是什麼，第一個，每一個工作會報和工作會報當中有很多的通知，包括原民會、民政系統或是警政系統，所以我們尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的撤離、依親及收容安置人數，他們所提的人數我們就相信，剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難人數，在我手上所得到的資料不是你說的那個數字。"],["張委員智倫：你可以提一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我的是5,348人，人數和戶數不一樣，報告委員，我們在9月21日下午的時候是1,837戶，但是這個人數套疊出來，包括花蓮縣副縣長告訴我們，他們總共的實居人數是6,843人。"],["張委員智倫：所以當時……"],["劉部長世芳：這個在網頁上面都有。"],["張委員智倫：當時你所說的、你下命令的部分是要求垂直避難有5,348人？"],["劉部長世芳：不是、不是，報告委員，應該是這樣子，就是你可以避難或是收容，可以用收容安置、依親或垂直避難，都可以，但是這些有多少人是由縣市或由鄉鎮區公所來確認。我們有特別提到，因為你所說的垂直避難或是垂直撤離，按照聯合國或是花蓮縣所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上，建築安全、結構無虞的狀況之下，可以採取垂直避難，也就是在緊急狀況之下，很多居民如果來不及疏散到比較遠的地方，可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話可以往上跑。我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候，當然是往上跑，這個部分在演練上面有一些大家疏忽的地方，所以這一次所罹難的18位左右，大概都是在1樓的空間，而且很一大部分大概都是年紀比較大，也就是說，他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人。據我們所了解的，第一個，很多家屬都說沒有聽到，剛剛也討論過，沒有聽到的，譬如光復鄉公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況，可是在第一時間警消就已經趕快出動車輛大聲廣播，所以我們未來在精進跟檢討的時候需要去澈底地了解現場的狀況，才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整。"],["張委員智倫：部長，我跟你請教，因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官，應該也收到很多的消息。我想要請教，如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報有五千多人使用垂直撤離的時候，你會不會覺得這個人數是偏多的，還是這符合你的預期？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們無法說這符合我的預期，因為我們當時下令的時候，只能告訴他什麼樣的方式能夠最安全，也是最快的方式，因為花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央，他們有一個就是屬於垂直避難的方式，也就是說，他們肯認這也是屬於避難方式的一種，但是他要選擇什麼樣的方式，可能在歷次的，包括做兵棋推演或做其他疏散撤離的時候，就要提到這個部分，或者讓第一線在協助疏散撤離的民政或社政工作同仁了解這樣的狀況，才能夠在短時間之內搶救大部分民眾的生命、財產安全。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。我們先休息。","休息（12時1分）","繼續開會（12時11分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩",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講災防法都是為了要脫責啊"},{"start":80.201,"end":106.166,"text":"剛剛副總召講了這個災害防救法第10條規定是什麼其實它的重點是要把這個災防法第10條的規定說成是鄉鎮區公所他們的責任一個花蓮縣政府要把這個撤離的責任推給鄉鎮市公所這個是剛剛結論到的第一個重點第二個重點其實他沒有講到的"},{"start":107.119,"end":125.117,"text":"在這個鄉鎮市公所撤離的責任之前災防法第四條災防法這些督導管理這些主管機關呢在直轄市是直轄市縣府而在縣市是縣市政府啊所以公然的在立法院內政委員會"},{"start":126.482,"end":151.019,"text":"把這個責任推給硬塞給鄉鎮市公所之外呢他也忘了讀第四條花蓮縣政府的職責是什麼但是我們今天說實在都不是要去究責是光復公所或者是村長那或者是縣政府其實我們是在討論這個我剛剛看到"},{"start":155.31,"end":178.437,"text":"當是溢流的時候或者是可能有潰堤的危險的時候或者是因為這個颱風已經產生了幫我放這個颱風警報或者是這個颱風已經產生了有可能要發布紅色警戒有可能目前是黃色警戒可能要撤離是多少人"},{"start":179.108,"end":203.525,"text":"那剛剛副總召在這邊討論說你什麼時間是黃色警戒你裝在陰邊中心你劉士芳部長要用最高的標準來所以花蓮縣政府是沒有責任我覺得現在都不是討論那個的時候那剛剛有其他委員也講到制度的問題紅色警戒黃色警戒各應該做什麼樣的撤離或什麼樣的警報那"},{"start":205.465,"end":234.045,"text":"這一個範圍到底有多大應該照制度走那我就請問各位啊我就請問剛才的委員啊災害應變中心隨時在處理各種狀況可能有委員可能沒有行政經驗沒有在災害應變中心待過不知道災變中心的指揮系統匯報各地或者是所有專家的意見之後必須要做出裁判必須要做出"},{"start":235.469,"end":258.869,"text":"決定那決定之後各自分層分工該做什麼事情的人就去做什麼事情該找資源的人就去找資源中央該負責什麼包含國防部會支援多少人力來人就在那裡要不要指揮地方要不要指揮負責撤離的人要不要指揮這個是整個災變中心在做的事情而農業部"},{"start":260.188,"end":274.95,"text":"在之前就是在做相關的這個如果是要輸菌那輸菌可能大家的意見不一樣我想要聽一下次長當時對輸菌農業部還有經濟部可能對相關的意見有什麼樣不一樣的討論"},{"start":276.98,"end":290.549,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為其實對於這次的這個驗測壺其實真的是不要說台灣沒碰過在全世界應該也算是一個非常特別的狀況所以我們在7月26號發現這個驗測壺形成之後其實一直在做就是做監測"},{"start":291.61,"end":318.642,"text":"了解這個宴會社會有什麼變化那各種模型的演練或是各種模型的建置也是基於我看你的工作報告裡面也是馬步停蹄每週都有工作進度應該都要因為其實晴天有晴天狀況大雨有大雨狀況地震在花園有地震的狀況那東北季風來又有狀況那颱風來那更別提所以所有的模擬都是因照所有的參數變動包括每天的水位增加包括整個地形地貌的監測"},{"start":319.602,"end":345.368,"text":"大家講個道理 這個是穩定的艷澀湖跟你遇到下雨天的艷澀湖 還有可能颱風要來的艷澀湖 來 看一下齁9月21號颱風還很遠喔已經開始成立應變中心了 9月22號已經開始發布這個黃色警戒了9月22號已經紅色警戒囉 來 各位看一下當時的颱風還這麼"},{"start":350.16,"end":363.424,"text":"預報還這麼遠而且發生災情的是在花蓮那我們也對花蓮做出了這些相關的包含到9月22號就已經發布了紅色警戒紅色警戒開始劉世芳部長可能就要請你上台了"},{"start":367.817,"end":388.976,"text":"委員好剛才副總召說依照這個作業標準的規定還是黃色警戒突然到紅色警戒指揮官怎麼會依據台大的這個調查報告說臨時就要變成要撤8000人所以他沒有責任我想兩個不確定的因素第一個是華家沙在花蓮山區的豪大宇這是一個另外一個就是說的他那個那個爸"},{"start":390.037,"end":397.146,"text":"那個 對不起那個艷澀湖它的水位一直往上升因為它是一個集水區所以我們這兩個判斷的因子是原來這個幫農業部做這個監測的這個團隊裡面沒有去設定到那我認為說比較重要是雖然話"},{"start":405.256,"end":409.957,"text":"花蓋莎的那個颱風發布的範圍是以南台灣為主我覺得花蓮這個地方要從嚴來做判斷所以當我們請這個台大團隊跟原來的陽明交大團隊還有花蓮縣政府一起來討論的時候我是採取共識決所以其實是在9月21當天就在討論這件事下午3點這個會議就在討論共識決剛副總召的資料又錯了喔他說下午3點還在還在撤離600人喔沒有"},{"start":432.222,"end":446.972,"text":"那個資料之前還是給你機會讓你解釋一下整個過程當時我們有邀請包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所都一起參加這樣的討論然後告訴他們事情的嚴重性所以我們才會把他拉高變成要撤離1837戶也就是要撤離接近"},{"start":453.346,"end":477.89,"text":"8600但是後來他們說實居人數是68006800人這個其實跟過去劉部長在高雄幾個山區的這些撤離經驗是有關係的嘛為什麼當初我們原本預計可能要撤離是8000人後來實際撤離6000多人這個就跟我們造冊的方式有關對不對那造冊要怎麼造冊地方政府請教一下劉副市長當時的劉副市長到山區造冊怎麼造冊"},{"start":482.011,"end":506.746,"text":"第一個大概要區公所還有他們的村裡幹事包括民政、社政、警政單位三個一起去把真正住在那個地方的現住人口把它弄出來而且要常常更新譬如說兩個月或三個月或者是訓期之前要再更新一次才知道說他們有沒有住在那個地方要了解那個狀況那除此之外可能社會局呢會跟民政局要知道什麼是弱勢人口譬如說需要洗腎或需要孕婦那這些就是變成要強制在"},{"start":508.987,"end":535.845,"text":"颱風警報要發布之前就要強制撤離所以這些幾乎都是地方政府應該所做的這個基本的工作把名單能夠確實清楚的標示出來那因為我們在中央的部分也只能把用那個這個國科會的套圖的方式套出來說1837戶可是每一戶裡面實居的人口跟急在人在或者急不在人在或者急在人不在真的是要地方政府才能夠明確的告訴我們這些資料"},{"start":537.426,"end":562.706,"text":"所以我們現在開始其實也不能對地方政府有過度的期待我們必須要透過很多的演練或者是透過很多可能實際的這些演習也好那去落實這些咒策的方式報告委員 我想我們這次因為比較擔心是原住民的部落"},{"start":563.366,"end":582.689,"text":"所以園民會也加入我們的通知系統因為我們很怕就是剛有說的可能他們不一定聽得懂漢語那園民他們也在這段時間內一共有十幾到二十次也是通知包括村長都有收到這樣子的證明也就是說通知的部分我們都盡量通知到但是我們就是沒有辦法通知到每一個人"},{"start":583.47,"end":612.789,"text":"我們只能通知到村長里長里幹事或者是鄉鎮施工所的人所以後來才知道光復鄉公所報告說他們的廣播系統壞掉趕快加上警消的系統去做撤離那當然時間上還是有一些延遲啊而且大家都知道這次沖刷下來的不是水它是水加土加沙所以它其實水加土加沙的時候它的沖刷力道是原來水的兩倍以上才會說留有大概有兩億方的這個土石在限地的地方"},{"start":613.169,"end":639.06,"text":"那這個造成很大的災難的我想每一個地方都有我們檢討跟精進的空間也請委員能夠了解是的謝謝部長你辛苦那原本不想講災防法那剛剛傅坤祺總召一直講災防法一直講第4條我提醒他第10條我更不想講的是災防法第49條各級政府機關如果有帶墮職守他必須要移送的我們今天不在這裡討論這個問題我們希望"},{"start":641.317,"end":642.763,"text":"未來不要再有這些事情發生謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時39分）我所認識的劉世芳部長，在我過去跟她共事的時候，每次高雄市在開災變中心的會議時，我們的劉副市長就是不見了，他人在哪裡？在山區；他人在做什麼？在撤離。所以劉部長，我請你先休息一下，我先請農業部次長。"],["主席：請農業部次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：次長還有署長，在你們的報告裡面有寫到，堰塞湖從7月開始監測以來，農業部到底做了什麼？除了監測，當然也有相關的疏濬計畫，最後萬一有出現紅色警戒了，可能就是有一些撤離的方案，與撤離相關的權責單位、機關等等，其實剛才講制度、講災防法，都是為了要脫責啊！剛剛傅總召講的災害防救法第十條規定是什麼？其實他的重點是要把災防法第十條的規定說成是鄉（鎮、市）公所的責任，一個花蓮縣政府要把撤離的責任推給鄉（鎮、市）公所，這個是剛剛節錄到的第一個重點。第二個重點，其實這是他沒有講到的，在鄉（鎮、市）公所撤離的責任之前，依災防法第四條規定，這些督導、管理的主管機關在直轄市是直轄市政府，而在縣市是縣市政府，所以除了公然的在立法院內政委員會把這個責任硬推給鄉鎮市公所之外，他也忘了第四條有規定花蓮縣政府的職責是什麼。但是說實在的，我們今天都不是要去究責光復鄉公所、村長或者是縣政府，其實我們是在討論，我剛剛看到，當溢流或可能有潰堤危險的時候，或者是因為這個颱風已經產生而有可能要發布紅色警戒，有可能目前是黃色警戒，可能要撤離多少人，剛剛傅總召在這邊討論什麼時間是黃色警戒，在災害應變中心劉世芳部長要用最高的標準，所以花蓮縣政府是沒有責任，我覺得現在都不是討論那個事情的時候。","剛剛也有其他委員講到制度的問題，在紅色警戒、黃色警戒時各應該做什麼樣的撤離或什麼樣的警報，這個範圍到底有多大，應該要照制度走。我就請問剛才講這些的委員，災害應變中心隨時在處理各種狀況，有的委員可能沒有行政經驗，沒有在災害應變中心待過，所以不知道災變中心的指揮系統在彙整各地或所有專家的意見之後，必須要做出決定，在決定之後各自分層、分工，該做什麼事情的人就去做什麼事情，該找資源的人就去找資源，還有中央該負責什麼，包含國防部會有多少支援人力來，人就在那裡，地方要不要指揮？負責撤離的人要不要指揮？這個是整個災變中心在做的事情，而農業部在之前就是在做相關的部分，如果是要疏濬，可能大家的意見不一樣，我想要問一下次長，當時對於疏濬，農業部還有經濟部在做相關的討論時有什麼不一樣的意見？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員的關心，關於這一次堰塞湖的事情，不要說臺灣沒有碰過，其實在全世界應該也算是一個非常特別的狀況，所以我們在7月26號發現這個堰塞湖形成之後，其實一直在做監測，以了解這個堰塞湖有什麼變化，各種模型的演練或是各種模型的建置也是基於……"],["李委員柏毅：我看了你的工作報告，也是馬不停蹄，每週都有工作進度。"],["杜次長文珍：應該都要，因為其實在晴天有晴天的狀況，在大雨時有大雨的狀況，在花蓮有地震的狀況，在東北季風時也有狀況，更別提颱風來的時候，所以所有的模擬都應依照所有的參數變動，包括每天的水位增加，包括整個地形、地貌的監測，都是一定要做的。"],["李委員柏毅：大家來講道理，穩定的堰塞湖跟遇到下雨天的堰塞湖，還有可能颱風要來時的堰塞湖……"],["杜次長文珍：絕對是不一樣的。"],["李委員柏毅：來，我們看一下，在9月21號颱風還很遠，已經開始成立應變中心了；在9月22號已經發布紅色警戒了，請各位看一下，照當時的預報，颱風還這麼遠，而且發生災情的地方是在花蓮，那我們也對花蓮做出了相關措施，包含在9月22號就已經發布了紅色警戒，講到紅色警戒，劉世芳部長，可能就要請你上臺了。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：剛才傅總召說依照這個作業標準的規定還是黃色警戒，突然到紅色警戒，指揮官怎麼會依據臺大的調查報告，臨時就變成要撤8,000人，所以他沒有責任啦！"],["劉部長世芳：我想有兩個不確定的因素，第一個是樺加沙颱風在花蓮山區造成豪大雨，這是一個；另外一個是那個堰塞湖的水位一直往上升，因為它是一個集水區。我們這兩個判斷的因子是原來幫農業部做監測的團隊沒有去設定到的，那我認為比較重要的是，雖然樺加沙颱風發布的範圍是以南臺灣為主，但是我覺得花蓮這個地方要從嚴來做判斷，所以當我們請臺大團隊跟原來的陽明交大團隊還有花蓮縣政府一起來討論的時候，我是採取共識決。"],["李委員柏毅：所以其實在9月21號當天就在討論這件事……"],["劉部長世芳：下午3點，是共識決。"],["李委員柏毅：在下午3點這個會議就在討論，剛剛傅總召的資料又錯了，他說下午3點還在撤離600人，傅總召的資料又錯了！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，那個是之前……"],["李委員柏毅：部長，我還是給你機會讓你解釋一下整個過程。"],["劉部長世芳：是，當時我們有邀請花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所都一起參加這樣的討論，然後告訴他們事情的嚴重性，所以我們才會把它拉高變成要撤離1,837戶。"],["李委員柏毅：要撤離1,837戶，也就是要撤離接近……"],["劉部長世芳：8,600人，但是後來他們說實居人數是6,800人。"],["李委員柏毅：6,800人？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員柏毅：這個其實跟過去劉部長在高雄幾個山區的這些撤離經驗是有關係的。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員柏毅：為什麼當初我們原本預計可能要撤離的是八千多人，後來實際撤離六千多人，這個就跟我們造冊的方式有關，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["李委員柏毅：那造冊要怎麼造冊？可能地方政府……"],["劉部長世芳：造冊都是地方政府……"],["李委員柏毅：請教一下當時的劉副市長，到山區造冊要怎麼造冊？"],["劉部長世芳：第一個大概要區公所還有他們的村里幹事，包括民政、社政、警政單位三個一起去把真正住在那個地方的現住人口弄出來，而且要常常更新，譬如說每兩個月或三個月或者在汛期之前要再更新一次，才會知道他們有沒有住在那個地方，要了解那個狀況。除此之外，可能社會局跟民政局要知道什麼人是弱勢人口，譬如說，需要洗腎的人或是孕婦，對這些人就變成要在颱風警報發布之前要強制撤離，所以這些幾乎都是地方政府應該要做的基本工作，要把名單能夠確實清楚地標示出來。因為我們在中央的部分也只能把用國科會套圖的方式套出來有1,837戶，可是在每一戶裡面實居的人口，到底是籍在、人在或者籍不在、人在還是籍在、人不在，真的是要地方政府才能夠明確地告訴我們這些資料。"],["李委員柏毅：所以我們現在開始其實也不能對地方政府有過度的期待，我們必須要透過很多的演練或者是透過很多實際的演習去落實這些造冊的方式。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們這一次因為比較擔心是原住民的部落，所以原民會也加入我們的通知系統，因為我們很怕有剛剛說的情形，就是可能他們不一定聽得懂漢語，那對原民他們在這段時間內一共有十幾次到20次的通知，包括村長都有收到這樣子的通知。也就是說，在通知的部分，我們都儘量的通知到，但是我們就是沒有辦法通知到每一個人，我們只能通知到村長、里長、里幹事或者是鄉鎮市公所的人，所以後來才知道光復鄉公所報告說他們的廣播系統壞掉，就趕快加上警消的系統去做撤離，當然在時間上還是有一些延遲。而且大家都知道，這次沖刷下來的不是只有水，它是水加土、加沙，其實在水加土、加沙的時候，它的沖刷力道是原來水的兩倍以上，所以才會留有大概2億方的土石在現場那些地方，這個造成很大的災難，我想每一個地方都有我們檢討跟精進的空間，也請委員能夠了解。"],["李委員柏毅：是的，謝謝部長，你辛苦了！我原本不想講災防法，可是剛剛傅崐萁總召一直講災防法，一直講第四條，所以我提醒他第十條。我更不想講的是災防法第二十四條，各級政府機關如果有怠惰職守，必須要被移送，我們今天不在這裡討論這個問題，我們希望未來不要再有這些事情發生，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝李柏毅委員。","接下來請張智倫委員，待會在張智倫委員質詢後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛"},{"start":170.018,"end":195.8,"text":"那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢啤酒是沒有什麼意思的啦因為"},{"start":197.062,"end":218.549,"text":"我剛剛都講了 連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓總 誰來認定這個事情 對不對是一直到應變中心 因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮 在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢 對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部 跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險 應該要疏散 可以嗎"},{"start":219.465,"end":244.323,"text":"好像不太行吧報告 報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對於驗色虎會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在所以我講他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方"},{"start":247.285,"end":267.012,"text":"但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上"},{"start":268.132,"end":292.576,"text":"或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛你有多大的權力負多大的責任"},{"start":295.837,"end":311.184,"text":"但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎"},{"start":312.888,"end":325.89,"text":"一般來講但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛對不對他有聯邦情事務管理署FEMA對不對日本勒"},{"start":327.236,"end":344.368,"text":"日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災廳嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等"},{"start":347.59,"end":371.348,"text":"變成災防就辦公室 變任務型編組現在是二十幾個人 等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少 也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊 對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說紀子維官表現還不錯但是紀子維官之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了 大家講說我們要趕快"},{"start":372.729,"end":386.685,"text":"統合 所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候 事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前 他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前 會末中一事 會多頭馬車呢那請問 這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要 我請問部長意見"},{"start":387.946,"end":409.565,"text":"報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因"},{"start":410.405,"end":436.762,"text":"災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個事情會想要聽到的是我們中央接下來的答案怎麼做三個方向第一也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等"},{"start":438.963,"end":456.891,"text":"但我認為總要討論 這是第一第二 很多人談災害防救法也好 地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件他講的就是失靈嘛 對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三 還是部長認為現行機制非常好 什麼都不用討論 請問是哪一個"},{"start":458.681,"end":484.691,"text":"我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅"},{"start":485.371,"end":505.842,"text":"你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個我希望那個消防署他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力"},{"start":506.522,"end":523.135,"text":"或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講 你在災後 善後 調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源 這我們都非常肯定但問題是 現在在談的是前期嘛好 你現在講消防署 我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力 他有辦法跟農業部 林保署好好溝通 然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛 又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前"},{"start":532.93,"end":548.975,"text":"他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個"},{"start":549.515,"end":569.929,"text":"危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了 狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩"},{"start":571.79,"end":577.994,"text":"所以意思不足 大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府 鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演而是真的要做疏散撤離這樣子才會"},{"start":600.447,"end":606.25,"text":"把大家的危機意識提升這個就是我們現在法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事"},{"start":624.96,"end":646.928,"text":"這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後"},{"start":652.19,"end":676.893,"text":"你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等 你做不做得到嘛你剛剛講 你都有個但書嘛 如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣 你是做得到的那表示什麼 在那個當下 恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少 確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講 他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此 你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個"},{"start":677.353,"end":699.403,"text":"那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣控制更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛"},{"start":700.063,"end":724.965,"text":"所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案呢我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演"},{"start":725.543,"end":733.876,"text":"報告委員 因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置跟處理這個緊急 還在戰後的狀態嘛對 需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間"},{"start":734.862,"end":760.22,"text":"欸鮑威我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的驗色湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為驗色湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個9100萬方的這個驗色湖恐怕現在目前是最大的一個驗色湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分啊那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來3100萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有不是啊"},{"start":763.843,"end":767.686,"text":"不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成你內部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各度的分工問題嘛"},{"start":783.837,"end":806.523,"text":"我希望先從這個驗澀湖因為驗澀湖不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊"},{"start":807.796,"end":829.667,"text":"他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險"},{"start":831.148,"end":852.134,"text":"對 保險也好 宣導也好 這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行 可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫 我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離 也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分 因為不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以喔 這個 請無論如何確保他們安全 可以嗎可以嗎 確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好 謝謝"},{"start":860.297,"end":860.886,"text":"謝謝林徐廷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":835,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時24分）謝謝主席，劉部長有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了。中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設，9月21號下午5點半一級開設，指揮官是你，對不對？剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事。"],["劉部長世芳：是，是樺加沙颱風的中央災害應變中心。"],["牛委員煦庭：災害應變中心嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：樺加沙颱風，因為其他還有像屏東跟臺東，它們也都是災區，還有高雄，所以樺加沙成立的時候，大家都知道樺加沙是從南臺灣過去的，只不過在花蓮山區裡面，它累積是大豪雨的雨量，所以造成這次堰塞湖的事件。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不只是這次的指揮官，我剛剛聽你回答我們傅總召的質詢，我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官，原因是什麼呢？因為在颱風之前，我根據你剛剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷，在沒有颱風的時候，恐怕你也沒有角色，沒辦法進場，你也沒有辦法做指揮，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是，按照災害防救法確實沒有錯，因為堰塞湖的主責機關依災害防救法，監測是由農業部來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：是農業部的兩個署嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以在這樣的情況下，甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩，你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話，所以我講你很無奈，事實上我們當初也都非常相信，都基於善意去相信政府的消息，我們在政論節目上要評論、受訪等等，我們一開始也都講溢流，後來發現是潰壩，這其實證明了一件事情，就是中央整體在處理樺加沙的時候，有多頭馬車的狀況，彼此部會之間的認知不一樣，所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛！對不對？到底要用溢流的模型來做處理，還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理、做後續的一些安排，恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識，對嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分，第一個，持續監測的任務在農業部林保署，其實他們跟相當多的學者專家都有做研究，但是使用的參數如果不一樣，譬如他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風，或者當時是天氣晴的狀況之下，所以可能會產生溢流，那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話，可能就會產生潰堤或是潰壩，所以這樣的定義，很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們。我們中央災害應變中心成立之後，有做了很多作為，也可以供大眾來檢視。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我就簡單來講，你在9月19號，這個我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導，他也問了內政部裡面的一些官員，他說9月19號模型出爐，這模型大概就講說開始有臺大團隊，裡面有一個危險性比較高的版本出來，會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境，就是疏散8,000人這種比較大規模的疏散，高危險、料敵從嚴的極端情形，意見不同。當初因為還沒有颱風，內政部並不是堰塞湖的主管機關，所以沒有辦法做什麼，我覺得他講的也是大實話啦！那今天大家都在討論，我是覺得在那邊互踢皮球是沒有什麼意思的啦！因為我剛剛都講了，連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難，就是說誰來抓總、誰來認定這個事情，對不對？是一直到了應變中心，因為有一個颱風來了，你才能夠進場指揮，在此前大家莫衷一是，何況地方政府呢？對不對？地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部、跳過你內政部，他們逕行發布紅色警戒嗎？我覺得它很危險，應該要疏散，可以嗎？好像不太行吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您中間略過了一項，包括所有的學者專家，他們對於堰塞湖會發生什麼的狀況，其實每個人意見也都不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：那我們能夠做整合，就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官，我一定用最高的標準來處理，也就是為什麼在農業部所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官，這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方，但是我覺得政治上的責任，我們做一下簡單的釐清。中央跟地方這次處理得毫無默契，這已經是一個大家都知道的事實，我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思，但是我不希望大家用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情。從法理上來講，即便地方制度法、災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行，可是從政治的實務上或法理上，它也沒辦法跳過中央，就像我剛剛講的，它沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒，對不對？如果它真的要疏散這麼多人，恐怕花蓮縣政府也好，更不用講公所了，它難道能夠指揮國軍嗎？客觀上來講，有很多不可能嘛！災害防救法有講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫，但為什麼它叫地區災防計畫？表示它有上位計畫嘛！也就是說面對重大災害，當然是應該由中央來抓總、來做主導，你有多大的權力負多大的責任，但是到此為止，我覺得不要再互推，或有默契不佳、或有若干疏漏，但是不要互相甩鍋，已經沒有意義了。本席今天的質詢，主要是要探討制度上的調整，部長，美國如果面對重大災情的時候，是誰來抓總，您知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：一般來講是州政府，但是如果非常嚴重的跨州，或者是相當大的，譬如說像上次Katrina的部分的話，大概就是由美國的FEMA來解決。"],["牛委員煦庭：FEMA嘛！聯邦緊急事務管理署（FEMA），日本呢？"],["劉部長世芳：日本他們現在的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我提醒部長，沒關係，日本叫做「防災擔當大臣」，手下有300個專門的公務員。"],["劉部長世芳：他們也是最近才剛剛成立的。"],["牛委員煦庭：未來準備要成立防災廳，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：回到中華民國的體制裡面，過去的災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的事業業務單位，後來因為整併等等，變成災害防救辦公室，變任務型編組，現在有二十幾個人，等於是幕僚單位這樣的一個定位，其人員非常少，也沒有預算權。","當然，不同的制度有不同的優缺點，把辦公室變成幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計，可是靈活的設計也不能翻車啊，對不對？我講的靈活設計有時候是有好處的，比如季指揮官就表現得還不錯，但是季指揮官之所以表現得不錯是因為已經出事了，所以大家才講我們要趕快統合，所以你的統合力就出來了。統合力出來之後事情可以順利處理，可是為什麼此前它沒有辦法發揮功能？為什麼此前會莫衷一是、會多頭馬車呢？請問這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要？我請問部長的意見。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，當然我們都有很多精進的空間，但是我們要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國FEMA的制度上面，其實還會有很多要檢討的地方，比如說現在的FEMA每一年的預算就高達1兆元，而且他們的FEMA是分成10個區域。事實上臺灣的災防機制就是要根據災因（災害的原因）來處理，我想您現在所說的部分，就是在發生這個災害之前的這些監測，到底有沒有可能跨部會，或者是由一個單位來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！我……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你聽我講完。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長解釋了很多，我們也都聽到了……"],["劉部長世芳：你現在講的那個災防的部分，大概都是屬於防災的應變，這跟之前的預測……"],["牛委員煦庭：人民現在或關心這個事情的大家會想要聽到的是，中央接下來打算怎麼做？有三個方向，第一，也許我們要開始做災害專責機關的討論，你剛剛有講，可能有預算的困擾等等，但我認為總是要討論，這第一點；第二，很多人不論是談災害防救法也好，地方制度法也好，可能要針對這樣的事情……顯然現行的機制對馬太鞍堰塞湖的事件來講，就是失靈，對不對？所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛！第三，還是部長認為現行的機制非常好，什麼都不用討論，請問是哪一個？"],["劉部長世芳：我想第三是完全不可能的。"],["牛委員煦庭：完全不可能嘛，很好！"],["劉部長世芳：不過我跟委員報告一下，在這之後，在我們還沒有修正災害防救法做必要的討論之前，第一個，我有要求消防署是否先成立12個原住民的搜救隊，這一次最大的量能其實是在很多的搜救隊，全臺灣的搜救隊到現場有搜救到717個人，讓他們可以脫離生命上面的威脅……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你還是在針對現在的災害做善後，但我們今天在國會討論的是針對未來制度的調整，我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答。"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，我剛剛跟您提到了，我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊，因為這是一直在部落，大部分都是在原民鄉，這第一個；第二個，我希望在消防署的編制上面還可以做考量，把剛剛所說的，包括防災的人力，或者是包括未來比較需要精進的部分，把它放到裡面去。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，災後的善後調度大家都非常努力，包含民力的支援，這些我們都非常肯定，但問題是，現在在談的是前期。好，你剛剛講消防署要成立更多的搜救隊，有精進的人力才有辦法跟農業部林保署好好溝通，然後下一次有堰塞湖的事情就可以好好處理嗎？恐怕很困難嘛！所以又回到我們剛剛開頭的問題。也就是在災害本身發生之前還是會出現多頭馬車的狀況，誰都不聽誰的，所以大家才會想，是不是可以用修法的方式或者可以成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛，對不對？我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我了解委員的用心，但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法。第一個，危機意識不夠，不管是在什麼地方，像農業部林保署就已經做過好多次不管是細胞簡訊，或者是做實災演習，但是到後來他們覺得變成像是「狼來了」。發布越多的紅色警戒，就讓人覺得是狼來了、狼來了，這也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果真的要提細胞簡訊，那大家就會問你，為什麼簡訊寫的是「溢流」而不是「潰壩」？"],["劉部長世芳：不是……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以意識不足，大家都有精進的空間嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：他們有做社區的演練，但是社區演練對很多人來講會覺得是紙上談兵，既然是紙上談兵……所以這次我們包括跟季連成政委都有協助，希望能跟花蓮縣政府一起來做。在這一次之後，我們有沒有緊急疏散、撤離的機制？這個應變計畫除了在縣政府、鄉鎮公所，還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候，不要只做兵棋推演，而是真正要做疏散、撤離，這樣子才會提升大家的危機意識。"],["牛委員煦庭：我在……"],["劉部長世芳：這個就是我們現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：你這些都還是在討論災害發生時要怎麼處理嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，法律的調整是一回事，可是事實上，真正在執行的時候，必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行的人，根據他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們花一點時間討論一下……"],["劉部長世芳：這需要審慎處理，如果做大規模改變的話，現在對於防災機制反而不一定是件好事。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，大家都在討論，突然之間撤離的人數變成八千多人，對不對？如果今天完全由內政部抓總，你有辦法在36小時之內把八千多人全部撤離嗎？講實話！"],["劉部長世芳：如果對國軍人力的要求能增加的話，我想是可以做得到的，而且不是36小時，報告委員，我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分，一共是43個小時。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在是跟你談論實務的問題，也就是你下達了一個必須要撤離8,000人的指示之後，才開始聯絡國防部，調度國軍現有的人力等等，你做不做得到？你剛剛講，你都有個但書嘛，如果國軍人力怎樣、怎樣，如果怎麼樣、怎麼樣，你是做得到的。那表示什麼？在那個當下恐怕是做不到的，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，國軍已經在現場待命了，但是國軍人數需要多少，確實需要由鄉（鎮）公所報上來才知道。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，人數不夠嘛！所以客觀來講，它就是沒有辦法處理嘛！也就是因為如此，你們才跟縣政府一起做了所謂垂直避難這樣的一個……那是不得不為，本席願意理解啦！因為它真的很難嘛！","既然中央都不見得做得到，地方政府也不可能做到，所以我才講，對於所有機制的設計，應該是事前我們要怎麼樣空出更多的時間，讓人有比較充裕的時間去做撤離、調度等等的事前預防工作，所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛！部長剛剛回答了很多，說我們在搜救、在後續、在當下要怎麼樣做調度，這些都很好，大家都努力了，但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的。","部長，雖然你覺得第三，也就是現行機制很好，那是不可能的，但是第一或第二，不管是單位的設計或法律的修正，你能不能給出更明確的答案呢？我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的目標，讓大家可以比較安心地說這樣悲劇不會再次重演？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，因為我們現在仍然屬於收容安置跟處理各種緊急……"],["牛委員煦庭：還在善後的狀態嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，還需要一點時間，讓我們再做檢討改進。"],["牛委員煦庭：你需要多少時間？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我現在真的沒辦法告訴你，因為你現在所說的堰塞湖，不是我們所知道的狀況。對於堰塞湖，我也聽一位美國的朋友講到，9,100萬立方公尺的堰塞湖恐怕是目前最大的一個堰塞湖。"],["牛委員煦庭：那是非常危險的一件事情。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，那是因為沖刷下來的水量很大，所以任何人工，包括整治馬太鞍溪整治的部分、疏濬的部分都不如第一次沖刷下來3,100萬立方公尺那麼大，因為整個整治計畫只處理五、六十萬立方公尺而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，不要再談個案了，我們今天之所以要討論制度，就是不希望頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，對不對？有關制度的設計，請你也要責成……內政部手下也是兵多將廣，農業部也都聽著了，對不對？有這麼多的好手，討論一下制度的設計，行政院應該要擔起責任，因為這個又要來了，我們要提早處理各部的分工問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我希望先從這個堰塞湖開始，因為堰塞湖不會只有一個，未來也有可能形成堰塞湖的整個災救防治……"],["牛委員煦庭：你該做的事要接著做，但是請你在你們內閣討論會議時，要把今天這個質詢的內容讓行政院長了解，就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的，請他趕快提出方案，好不好？","最後，我之後會用書面來做補充。我提醒一下，挖土機超人是本席選區的選民，我們都覺得很難過，他是臺灣的英雄沒錯，但是我要提醒，現在你在做很多的善後工作，還是有非常多熱情的臺灣鄉親，非常熱血地投入了救災的志工行列。政府的能力有限而民力無窮，但是第一，不能反客為主，你不能反過來依賴民力；第二個，既然他們要進場協助，我們的政府還是有一點點責任要確保他們的安全。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險的事，讓他們掃QR 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因為我是引用您保守的資料摘錢在發生前幾個小時應變中心指揮官還說是一流謝謝你"},{"start":272.677,"end":282.541,"text":"本席那天特別當了索隆泰院長跟各部會指揮官尤其是您面前本席特別提到在8月13號丹納斯特別條例通過的時候把馬太西堰舍湖納入必須要徹底解決農業部長陳俊濟當眾表達沒有立即性的危險"},{"start":301.909,"end":329.816,"text":"本席當天還特別強調為什麼說沒有立即性的危險然後現在說可能會逆流好本席那天講的話你既然報告裡沒有寫到本席的名字請你完整一下把我當天提出來的意見要寫上去今天你的報告有提到本席的名字請把本席當天講的事情一併寫清楚再過來請問一下指揮官"},{"start":331.696,"end":334.238,"text":"什麼時候發布紅色警戒總諮詢問過一次 再問一次紅色警戒中央災害應變中心什麼時候發布紅色警戒9月22日早上7點本席在問部長嘛"},{"start":352.338,"end":361.365,"text":"部長是不知道這個時間還要你來講嗎報告委員我們都非常清楚發射紅色警戒是農業部要負責發射北溪問題都是很簡單的問題所以9月22號上午7點紅色警戒部長是嗎是嗎"},{"start":375.636,"end":387.219,"text":"剛剛我們的林保署的署長已經跟你回應了這個問題還要請別人回答你沒有辦法不敢面對我們的全責分工上面非常的清楚報告委員全責分工很清楚指揮官什麼都不知道就對了9月17號農業部的報告在院會總質詢你問過一次農業部當天好這請農業部來回答當天9月17號農業部的報告"},{"start":404.121,"end":405.562,"text":"說到撤離人數是多少人陳俊基已經在院會講過了跟委員報告那個時候還沒有花家殺颱風的因素不是嘛就告訴本席嘛你們很奇怪耶你問你自己提出的報告上面寫幾個人還有這麼多理由嗎"},{"start":426.343,"end":447.029,"text":"58戶但是人數是由地方政府提供人數是由地方政府提供的本席要請你看一下你農業部的報告是嗎我知道上面是寫45人但是那個人數是地方政府提供的我們只框定區域好58戶45人而且那個下面還有一個附註他是說不包含會議的影響那個委員剛剛那個一句話下面還有一句話再過來"},{"start":454.452,"end":482.692,"text":"9月21號 農業部的報告 9月21號好洪峰到達的時間從本來的95分鐘 修正到多少本來的95分鐘 請次長來回答你們不要在那裡喔120分鐘好 120分鐘所以"},{"start":483.499,"end":499.463,"text":"原本預估是95分鐘在9月21號改成120分鐘認為災情即便是有災情沒有這麼嚴重是90分鐘延到120分鐘然後要撤離的對象從修正前也就是楊柳颱風楊柳颱風撤離多少戶多少人最後是將近700人259戶697人"},{"start":514.793,"end":536.838,"text":"你們9月21號修正以後是多少比楊柳颱風多還是比楊柳颱風少也是差不多600多人那個範圍有稍微縮減一點但是也有新的增加但是這個是我還是要說明一下本席在說話請你回答再會請你你們的資料改從259戶的楊柳颱風改成縮小範圍180戶"},{"start":543.582,"end":572.848,"text":"這是農業部的資料清清楚楚好所以這不是不叫而殺而已啊是農業部的範圍整體一直在縮小我跟委員報告這個隨著情勢一定會一直調整的所以請劉部長您剛剛在本委員會報告說好9月21號下午"},{"start":574.215,"end":588.322,"text":"下午3點以後改成撤離將近1800戶對不對總共1837戶當時是黃色警戒還是紅色警戒 9月21號9月21號當時還沒有紅色警戒對 所以是什麼警戒黃 黃色警戒所以當時的黃色警戒要撤離哪些人依法要撤離哪些人"},{"start":601.767,"end":629.652,"text":"報告委員9月21號下午3點是一個檢討的會議跟討論的會議所以我們當時已經決定採用台大團隊最高的標準本席現在再一次請教您要撤離哪些人黃色警戒本席先問一個最簡單的題目9月21號貴行政院指揮中心黃色警戒要撤離的是"},{"start":630.555,"end":654.122,"text":"行動不變的人你都到今天還搞不清楚本席告訴你行動不變的人所以45位行動不變在這一次完全免於災就在黃色警戒的時候45位愛養中心的全部撤離因為那個時候黃色警戒是要撤離行動不變好9月22號上午7點紅色警戒"},{"start":659.059,"end":678.894,"text":"到9月23號自災短短一天之內請問行政院災害應變中心有沒有跟地方政府來協調來輔導來核定怎麼樣的疏散計畫 有沒有"},{"start":680.066,"end":689.751,"text":"報告委員到紅色警戒開始的時候是強制撤離強制撤離的時候就是開始要疏散所有在這個三個象徵公署裡面的人有作業規定嘛行政院都已經上次總質詢上禮拜二總質詢已經就教過了嘛到現在你們都還搞不清楚嗎這麼大的範圍從185變成1800再變成8600人"},{"start":711.448,"end":723.546,"text":"你們的整體的疏散計畫有七個部會必須要來輔導而且必須要來核定你們在22號早上有沒有積極的來處理這個問題 有沒有"},{"start":727.267,"end":746.219,"text":"我們當然是非常這是法律規定的作為規定有沒有有沒有報告委員強制疏散撤離如果才需要公文來核定的話太慢應該是所有的人開始要做動作那這些動作需要國軍或是替代役幫忙我們都全力協助強制撤離是由哪一個單位來執行還是由地方政府包括花蓮縣政府以及三個鄉鎮公所"},{"start":757.264,"end":785.97,"text":"胡說八道由國軍跟其他的人來協助胡說八道災害防救法第10條水災潛勢地區速戰作業標準這是常識你在高雄市政府擔任過秘書長不要在這裡裝瞎我在高雄市政府沒有擔任過秘書長你是副市長沒有關係不要裝瞎不要裝瞎災害防救法第10條"},{"start":788.36,"end":815.642,"text":"水災潛勢危險地區撤離標準作業程序誰哪個單位政府哪個單位負責哪個單位負責哪個單位負責水災的部分是由經濟部但是呢我們依據災害防救法的第10條鄉鎮市山地原住民以及山地原住民災害防救匯報的核定"},{"start":818.553,"end":839.222,"text":"是由哪個單位負責撤離我剛已經跟那個委員報告過了你不認識字嗎你照這個第十條念出來給我聽不要在這裡裝瞎嘛再加上經濟部災害防救法第十條是指鄉鎮三地原住民區公所跟三地原住民的災害防救匯報他們的任務鄉鎮市還有三地原住民區域地方的鄉鎮公所及"},{"start":847.975,"end":873.986,"text":"三地原住民區域防救匯報任務如下所有這些疏散作業是由執行單位是哪個單位剛剛我跟委員報告過了再把潛勢溪流這個水災辦法水災的潛勢溪流我想是由經濟部來主導來疏散及收容作業"},{"start":876.452,"end":891.562,"text":"蘇珊吉收容作業是哪個單位負責蘇珊吉撤離作業都是依照災害防救法相關規定縣市政府還有鄉鎮工作來做主導你不要一直扯縣市政府嘛你連白紙黑紙都不會讀嗎哪一個政府單位負責撤離作業縣市政府跟鄉鎮工作你是瞎了是嗎"},{"start":906.536,"end":908.297,"text":"你把全文讀一次給本席聽你們今天全部人都裝瞎這個不會讀是嗎要不要到國小重新讀一支書讀一次讀一次"},{"start":936.407,"end":964.815,"text":"這下市及縣市政府應督導鄉鎮市區公所辦理撤離作業整備並落實疏散避難計劃鄉鎮市公所應整備事項如下有五項好講得很清楚了你們不要在這裡影射攻擊撤離單位不管是颱風全國各縣市都一樣你可以下去了"},{"start":965.506,"end":995.05,"text":"你可以下去請部長上來每一個縣市政府都做過颱風的撤離颱風的撤離所有撤離的工作由鄉鎮市公所各區區公所來撤離所有該區的警察、消防、軍卡、預知兵力通通由鄉鎮市公所、區政府、區公所來負責撤離的工作"},{"start":995.643,"end":1024.641,"text":"把資料撤離之後匯整到縣市政府縣市政府是報到中央災害應變中心所有縣市政府的能量全部下放到各鄉鎮公所應變中心由各鄉鎮公所應變中心來指揮這是最基本的Lesson 1叫你們念念國字都不敢念天天栽贓花蓮縣政府好 你們要栽贓花蓮縣政府 可以"},{"start":1025.413,"end":1034.799,"text":"撤離執行單位就是鄉鎮市公所白紙黑字的法律規定再過來你說扯到花蓮縣政府可以花蓮縣政府之前所有中央災害應變中心要求他們撤離是600人楊柳颱風8月12號撤離600人所以所以"},{"start":1054.718,"end":1069.586,"text":"剛剛還有人提大馬村全數撤離大馬村就是楊柳颱風600人裡面全村就在那個範圍就是因為在那個範圍所以全數撤離因為他們已經全部撤離過一次這次是第二次本席在這裡啊隆重告訴你行政院政務委員金連成現在在花蓮前進協調所跟地方政府"},{"start":1085.011,"end":1108.679,"text":"協調七個部會依法要輔導地方政府要核定疏散疏散計畫疏散路線疏散收容還有五個部會必須跟地方政府要來對整個收容的整備計畫要做出來現在從10月3號討論到"},{"start":1111.69,"end":1124.015,"text":"從10月3號討論到現在11天都還沒有演練都還沒有核定你短短9月22號紅色警戒9月22號紅色警戒你要一天之內要光復相公所撤離8600人從600人變成8600人當然我要對部長"},{"start":1138.226,"end":1162.566,"text":"你給地方的建議可以垂直撤離已經事實證明垂直撤離是不可行的所以這也是固然是撤離的方式之一但是過去台灣都沒有使用過這次您特別強調劉部長要不要我幫您回憶一下還是要放您的錄音帶給您聽聽看有沒有需要謝謝委員指教"},{"start":1167.659,"end":1171.868,"text":"要垂直撤離嘛最多是家門口有水淹過而已嘛"},{"start":1172.418,"end":1197.456,"text":"報告委員我想我的實意不是這個樣子我正在從當時的所有的直播的狀況錄音錄影的部分把原先所講的字數或是我講的部分全部把它一字一字把它列出來那我所了解不是這樣的狀況委員可能誤解人生沒有關係啦全國國人可以來看啦報告委員隨時避難的人數呢總共是5348人檢討報告有一個很重要我請你啊"},{"start":1201.567,"end":1215.097,"text":"本席在詢問法務部在詢問卓院長通通詢問過請您把檢討報告裡面要把這兩項加進去剛剛我謝謝蘇委員 蘇喬瑋委員也有問過8月11號花蓮縣政府官務相公所 農業部 經濟部所做的決議有錄音 有會議記錄要求農業部必須釋放"},{"start":1231.892,"end":1244.021,"text":"海嘯警報請問指揮官放了沒有在9月23之前沒有釋放過9月23號當天海嘯來有釋放嗎沒有再過來農業部很奇怪經濟部有問題農業部又提醒農業部有問題但農業部又提醒經濟部"},{"start":1261.195,"end":1275.241,"text":"去年康瑞颱風就是從這次的一流口進來的兩個開口題要請他補起來有錄音有會計錄結果經濟部把這兩個開口題又沒有把它補好大水就是從那裡進來就是從那裡進來部長可以把這個納入檢討報告可以嗎"},{"start":1288.961,"end":1301.991,"text":"這個在我會請農業部跟經濟部把相關的會議記錄把它列出來給賴總統的報告前進協調所給賴總統的報告第一頁就講得很清楚厭賽福警戒發布第一個就講得很清楚要發海嘯警報行政院在制正農業部其罪"},{"start":1317.717,"end":1343.248,"text":"還不只這樣行政院又自證經濟部其罪在前進協調所的報告10月4號完成第一道5米防線2860公尺5米高的防線還提前兩天作業完成8月11號會議記錄就叫他要做為什麼災後他才會做 災前都不會做沒有"},{"start":1344.144,"end":1373.508,"text":"那2870米是颱風來的時候沖毀的沒有關係啦不是在那次的專案小組專案小組會議的交代的事項我們都已經完成了你要回去跟卓榮泰院長講卓榮泰院長說要依法調查要依法調查還給亡靈啊還給亡靈一個公道你跟卓榮泰院長去報告吧他不查未來還有人會查接下來"},{"start":1374.628,"end":1376.169,"text":"最後我要請教劉思芳劉部長我們有沒有中央政府劉部長我們有沒有中央政府有沒有應變中心報告委員我們當然有中央政府但是中央災害應變中心注重在應變 請問一下災情發生之後到現在為了炒誰是主責"},{"start":1401.414,"end":1428.892,"text":"本席在10月7號問了左院長這一題問了整整三分鐘他才承認主責單位是行政院各部會災後救災的部分是行政院各部會那我請問一下鋪天蓋地的謠言依照災害防救法應該要來告發是三年以下有期徒刑病科罰金100萬請問內政部告發了幾件"},{"start":1431.977,"end":1455.205,"text":"報告委員我們尊重院長的指示先救災再救責那目前為止呢我們 主要在院長9月24號就去救責了報告講得這麼清楚報告委員我要放他的錄影帶出來再放給你看嗎我們現在收集到他到行政院提的施政總報告馬上就提要救責要查到底這是院長提的本席在這裡"},{"start":1461.577,"end":1483.134,"text":"證告你你說九次通報九次通報花蓮縣政府草菅人民不管九次通報是只有第九次是紅色警戒其他前面六次是八月的洋柳颱風這種造謠的圖卡一天到晚再傳第二組黨一組團白飯 齁 卓榮泰院長還說你們組黨一組團白飯請問一組團白飯部長"},{"start":1491.4,"end":1501.806,"text":"是誰阻擋的是誰阻擋的報告委員我不清楚那該不該要查報告委員我剛還沒有昨晚院長都公開講了嘛說你們黨議組團的白飯誰擋的報告委員我們現在尖冰跟保錦內政部來的保錦擋下來的誰擋的"},{"start":1517.028,"end":1545.752,"text":"該不該當 報告委員 本席問你該不該當報告委員 我還是跟委員報告就是我們現在在收集所有的資料本席要你知道 你收集了這麼多天地方政府疲於救災十分的力量在救災還有透支二十分的力量來對付謠言所以請地方政府把這些謠言送給中央災害應變中心我們一定用災害防救法來移送 都沒有問題內政部這麼大的部沒有辦法查辦嗎 沒有辦法告發嗎一天到晚看到這些"},{"start":1546.633,"end":1552.096,"text":"本席沒有責怪沒有責怪憲兵因為他們在詢問是否有義務要進去災區災區裡面全部塞得滿滿有幾萬人在裡面種機械連會車都沒有辦法他們本來就要問你進來要幹什麼他們不只是一組團的白飯問清楚又讓他們進去了"},{"start":1574.793,"end":1601.789,"text":"也沒有阻擋 問清楚就進去了直接的藥品 問清楚也都進去了沒有一個 沒有一粒白飯擋在外面通通進來了 再過來說獨輪車 花蓮先生把獨輪車藏起來了結果事實上是什麼事實上事實上是行政院的東辦的行政院東辦的倉庫不是花蓮先生我的倉庫 再過來"},{"start":1603.365,"end":1622.602,"text":"所謂黨議組談白飯是為了圖利熱海便當這個花蓮縣陳王廟已經出來告了所有的熱海便當把熱海便當圖交出來熱海便當全部是陳王廟送的花蓮縣政府沒有買沒有買熱海便當全部在造謠還有高壓水槍"},{"start":1629.634,"end":1648.007,"text":"說富坤吉徐政委只會貼貼紙把人家捐出來的東西貼貼紙對不起啊這是花蓮縣政府環保局買的這是公務本來就應該要載明他是哪個單位的所屬還有七歲女童把管死掉了賺人熱淚後來是謠言這一次的救災荒腔走板主責單位是誰"},{"start":1659.284,"end":1669.916,"text":"問了卓榮泰院長問了三分鐘他才說是行政院科部會這是我們的政府讓產值超人台灣有一流的國民無流的政府謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":651,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時56分）主席，請劉部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：傅委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，從馬太鞍溪堰塞湖不幸事件到現在已經21天，請問檢討報告出來了沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：我們今天對內政委員會的報告，就是內政部的完整報告。"],["傅委員崐萁：就是檢討報告是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：它是一個整體的報告，包括從監測、預警到疏散……"],["傅委員崐萁：檢討報告什麼時候出來？"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在仍然在救災當中……"],["傅委員崐萁：這個就是檢討報告？"],["劉部長世芳：可不可以等所有的救災都結束的時候，再一起跟委員報告……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以檢討報告還沒有出來嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：還沒有完整，它需要更新。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問一下，這一次堰塞湖不幸事件，到底是溢流還是潰壩？"],["劉部長世芳：這個專有名詞，是不是可以請林保署來回應？因為在監測的時候，不管是溢流、潰壩，或是潰堤……"],["傅委員崐萁：請問一下，這次樺加沙颱風跟堰塞湖不幸事件，中央災害應變中心的指揮官是誰？"],["劉部長世芳：是我。"],["傅委員崐萁：是你，所以現在到底是潰壩還是溢堤，你到今天還沒有辦法搞清楚是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想不是這樣子的解釋。跟委員報告，我們有提到它從溢流開始，到最後下切至非常嚴重的時候，可能有產生潰壩，但是這樣子的專有名詞……"],["傅委員崐萁：可能有產生潰壩。"],["劉部長世芳：但是這樣的專有名詞的解釋，還是需要以專家的認定為主，我並不是說不知道這個狀況。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以指揮官到現在都還不知道是溢流跟潰壩！"],["劉部長世芳：因為它的定義不明確。"],["傅委員崐萁：還沒有辦法做最後的定義就對了。"],["劉部長世芳：它的定義不明確……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你還在狀況外就對了……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，抱歉，我們的意思是既然產生了災害，就在中央災害應變中心，以應變的方式來處理所有這樣子的天然災害。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，在發生事件之前，所有行政院各部會彙整的資料是溢流還是潰壩？災害發生之前，是溢流還是潰壩？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，可不可以請……"],["傅委員崐萁：你不是指揮官嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我擔任指揮官是在樺加沙……"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼都不知道可以當指揮官？"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，我是在樺加沙颱風的時候……"],["傅委員崐萁：事件都已經發生這麼久了。"],["劉部長世芳：中央災害應變中心之前的持續監測，是以農業部為主。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以農業部沒有跟您開過會，是嗎？所以你都在狀況外、都不瞭解嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您這樣子……"],["傅委員崐萁：到今天事發21天，為什麼在國會殿堂你都還不敢承認是溢流還是潰壩！請告訴全國人民是溢流還是潰壩？"],["劉部長世芳：都有可能。"],["傅委員崐萁：都有可能？"],["劉部長世芳：但是就跟委員所說的，在現在定義不明確的狀況之下，我們無法做明確的解釋。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，我們國家的中央災害應變中心指揮官到現在說可能是潰壩，也可能是溢流！好，在災情發生之前，你們提的報告是溢流還是潰壩？"],["劉部長世芳：我可不可以請林保署跟你回答？"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請你回答，你是指揮官。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我一再地強調……"],["傅委員崐萁：這是一個lesson one的問題……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，在樺加沙颱風成立的中央災害應變中心，我是擔任指揮官，但是在這之前……"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝你，終於……"],["劉部長世芳：在這之前……"],["傅委員崐萁：終於記得你是指揮官……"],["劉部長世芳：在這之前堰塞湖的監測工作是農業部林保署為主。"],["傅委員崐萁：在9月23號，本席因為等卓榮泰院長來拜訪，最後請我到中央災害應變中心去，本席去了，本席在當場聽到您的報告，是不是講溢流，是不是？你的報告是不是講溢流？還有錄音、錄影喔！"],["劉部長世芳：是，因為我是引用林保署的資料。"],["傅委員崐萁：終於，好，你承認就好。災前在災害發生前幾個小時，應變中心指揮官還說是溢流，謝謝你。","本席那天特別當著卓榮泰院長跟各部會指揮官，尤其是您面前，本席特別提到，在8月13號丹娜絲特別條例通過的時候，把馬太鞍溪堰塞湖納入必須要徹底解決，農業部長陳駿季當眾表達沒有立即性危險，本席當天還特別強調為什麼說沒有立即性的危險，然後現在說可能會溢流。好，本席那天講的話，你既然報告裡面寫到本席的名字，請你完整一下，把我當天提出來的意見也要寫上去。今天你的報告有提到本席的名字，請把本席當天講的事情一併寫清楚。","再來，請問一下指揮官，什麼時候發布紅色警戒？總質詢問過一次，再問一次。"],["劉部長世芳：紅色警戒是農業部發布……"],["傅委員崐萁：紅色警戒，中央災害應變中心什麼時候發布紅色警戒？"],["林署長華慶：9月22日早上7點，那是在……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在問部長嘛，唉呀，部長是不知道這個時間，還要你來講嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都非常清楚，但這發布紅色警戒是農業部要負責發布的……"],["傅委員崐萁：那你很清楚就告訴本席就好，本席問的問題都是很簡單的問題嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：我們在災害應變中心要能夠把所有部會的資料全部整合出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以9月22號上午7點發布紅色警戒，部長，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：剛剛我們林保署署長已經跟您回應了。"],["傅委員崐萁：連這個問題還要請別人回答，你沒有辦法，不敢面對嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的權責分工上面非常的清楚，報告委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，權責分工很清楚，指揮官什麼都不知道就對了。9月17號農業部的報告，在院會的總質詢已經問過一次，好，這個請農業部來回答。當天9月17號農業部的報告說要撤離人數是多少人？陳駿季已經在院會講過了。"],["林署長華慶：跟委員報告，那個時候還沒有樺加沙颱風的因素……"],["傅委員崐萁：不是，你就告訴本席嘛，你們很奇怪耶！問你自己提出的報告上面寫幾個人，還有這麼多理由嗎？"],["林署長華慶：58戶，但是人數是由地方政府提供……"],["傅委員崐萁：多少人？"],["林署長華慶：人數是由地方政府提供的。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席要請你看一下，你農業部報告的嗎？"],["林署長華慶：對，我知道，這上面是寫45人，但是人數是地方政府提供的……"],["傅委員崐萁：好，45人，謝謝你喔，謝謝。"],["林署長華慶：我們只框定區域。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，58戶45人，農業部的報告……"],["林署長華慶：而且那個下面還有一個附註，它是說「不包含潰堤的影響」……"],["傅委員崐萁：再過來9月21號，本席只問說……"],["林署長華慶：委員，剛剛那句話下面還有一句話。"],["傅委員崐萁：請你針對本席的問題回答。再過來，9月21號農業部的報告，9月21號洪峰到達的時間從本來的95分鐘修正到多少？本來的95分鐘，請次長來回答，你不要在那裡喔，讓……"],["林署長華慶：120分鐘。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，120分鐘。所以，原本預估是95分鐘，在9月21號改成120分鐘，認為即便是有災情，沒有這麼嚴重，是95分鐘延到120分鐘……"],["林署長華慶：沒有說災情不會那麼嚴重。"],["傅委員崐萁：然後要撤離的對象從修正前，也就是楊柳颱風，當時楊柳颱風撤離多少戶、多少人？"],["林署長華慶：最後是將近700人。"],["傅委員崐萁：259戶、697人。你們9月21號修正以後是多少？比楊柳颱風多，還是比楊柳颱風少？"],["林署長華慶：也是差不多六百多人，那個範圍有稍微縮減一點，但是也有細膩的增加……"],["傅委員崐萁：好，從259戶，200……"],["林署長華慶：但是我還是要說明一下，這個是921早上。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在說話，要請你回答會再請你。你們的資料從259戶的楊柳颱風改成縮小範圍180戶，這是農業部的資料，清清楚楚的。好，所以這不是不教而殺而已，是農業部的範圍整體一直在縮小。好，請劉部長。"],["林署長華慶：我跟委員報告，這個隨著情勢一定會一直調整的。"],["傅委員崐萁：請劉部長。您剛剛在本委員會報告，說9月21號下午3點以後，改成撤離將近1,800戶，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：總共1,837戶。"],["傅委員崐萁：當時是黃色警戒還是紅色警戒？9月21號。"],["劉部長世芳：9月21號當時還沒有紅色警戒。"],["傅委員崐萁：對，所以是什麼警戒？"],["劉部長世芳：黃，黃色警戒。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，黃色警戒。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以當時的黃色警戒，要撤離哪些人？依法要撤離哪些人？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，9月21號下午3點是一個檢討跟討論的會議，我們當時已經決定採用臺大團隊最高的標準，所以我們請NCDR（國家災防科技中心）把它做出來，總共是1,800戶。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在再一次請教您，黃色警戒要撤離哪些人？本席現在問一個最簡單的題目，9月21號貴行政院指揮中心發布黃色警戒，要撤離的是行動不便的人，你都到今天還搞不清楚，本席告訴你，行動不便的人，所以45位行動不便者在這一次完全免於災，就在黃色警戒的時候，45位安養中心的全部撤離，因為那個時候黃色警戒是要撤離行動不便的。好，9月22號上午7點發布紅色警戒到9月23號致災，短短一天之內，請問行政院災害應變中心有沒有跟地方政府來協調、來輔導、來核定怎麼樣的疏散計畫，有沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，紅色警戒開始的時候是強制撤離，強制撤離的時候就是開始要疏散所有在這三個鄉鎮公所裡面的人。"],["傅委員崐萁：強制撤離的範圍，強制撤離的範圍有作業規定嘛，行政院都已經……上禮拜二總質詢已經就教過了嘛，到現在你們都還搞不清楚嗎？這麼大的範圍，從180戶變成1,800戶再變成8,600人，你們整體的疏散計畫有7個部會必須要來輔導，而且必須要來核定，你們在22號早上有沒有積極地來處理這個問題，有沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：我們當然是非常積極，而且也跟花蓮縣政府有開會……"],["傅委員崐萁：這是法律規定的作業規定，有沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，強制疏散撤離如果還需要公文來核定的話，太慢，應該是所有的人開始要做動作，那這些動作需要國軍或是替代役幫忙，我們都全力協助。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，請問一下，你如果覺得……那本席再請教，強制撤離是由哪一個單位來執行？"],["劉部長世芳：還是由地方政府，包括花蓮縣政府以及三個鄉鎮公所……"],["傅委員崐萁：胡說八道。"],["劉部長世芳：由國軍跟其他的人來協助。"],["傅委員崐萁：胡說八道。根據災害防救法第十條以及水災潛勢地區疏散作業標準，這是常識，你在高雄市政府擔任過秘書長，不要在這裡裝瞎，法律規定……"],["劉部長世芳：我在高雄市政府沒有擔任過秘書長。"],["傅委員崐萁：喔，你是副市長，沒有關係。不要裝瞎，不要裝瞎，災害防救法第十條，水災潛勢危險地區撤離標準作業程序，誰、哪個單位，政府哪個單位負責？"],["劉部長世芳：水災的部分是由經濟部，但是我們依據災害防救法第十條，鄉鎮市山地原住民以及山地原住民災害防救會報的核定。"],["傅委員崐萁：是由哪個單位負責撤離？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛已經跟委員報告過了，我們按照……"],["傅委員崐萁：你不認識字嗎？你照這個第十條唸出來給我聽，不要在這裡裝瞎嘛！再加上經濟部……"],["劉部長世芳：災害防救法第十條是指鄉（鎮、市）、山地原住民區公所設鄉（鎮、市）、山地原住民以及山地原住民災害防救會報的核定。"],["傅委員崐萁：是由哪個單位負責撤離？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛已經跟委員報告過了，按照……"],["傅委員崐萁：你不認識字嗎？你照這個第十條唸出來給我聽，不要在這裡裝瞎嘛！再加上經濟部……"],["劉部長世芳：災害防救法第十條是指鄉（鎮、市）、山地原住民區公所及山地原住民區災害防救會報的任務。"],["傅委員崐萁：「鄉（鎮、市）、山地原住民區公所設鄉（鎮、市）、山地原住民區災害防救會報，其任務如下」，所有這些疏散作業的執行單位是哪個單位？"],["劉部長世芳：剛剛我跟委員報告過了。"],["傅委員崐萁：再把水災潛勢溪流相關辦法……"],["劉部長世芳：水災潛勢溪流我想是由經濟部主導。"],["傅委員崐萁：疏散及收容作業是哪個單位負責？"],["林署長華慶：疏散及撤離作業都是依照災害防救法相關規定，縣市政府還有鄉（鎮）公所來做主導。"],["傅委員崐萁：你不要一直扯縣（市）政府嘛，你連白紙黑字都不會讀嗎？哪一個政府單位負責撤離作業？"],["林署長華慶：縣（市）政府跟鄉（鎮）公所。"],["傅委員崐萁：你是瞎了，是嗎？你把全文讀一次給本席聽。你們今天全部在那裡裝瞎，這個不會讀是嗎？要不要到國小重新讀一次書？讀一次！"],["林署長華慶：這個都是……"],["傅委員崐萁：讀一次！"],["林署長華慶：直轄市及縣（市）政府應督導鄉（鎮、市、區）公所辦理疏散撤離作業整備，並落實疏散避難計畫，鄉（鎮、市、區）公所應整備事項如下。有五項。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，講得很清楚了！你們不要在這裡影射攻擊，撤離單位不管是颱風，全國各縣市都一樣……你可以下去了，請部長上來。每一個縣（市）政府都做過颱風的撤離，颱風的撤離，所有撤離工作由鄉（鎮、市）公所及各區區公所來撤離，所有該區的警察、消防、軍卡、預支兵力統統由鄉（鎮、市）公所、區公所來負責撤離的工作，撤離之後把資料彙整到縣（市）政府，縣（市）政府是報到中央災害應變中心，所有縣（市）政府的能量全部下放到各鄉（鎮）公所應變中心，由各鄉（鎮）公所應變中心來指揮，這是最基本的lesson one。叫你們唸，唸國字都不敢唸！天天栽贓花蓮縣政府，好！你們要栽贓花蓮縣政府，可以！撤離執行單位就是鄉（鎮、市）公所，白紙黑字的法律規定。","再過來，你扯到花蓮縣政府，可以！之前所有中央災害應變中心要求他們撤離，是600人，楊柳颱風8月12號撤離600人，剛剛還有人提大馬村全數撤離，大馬村就是楊柳颱風600人裡面，全村就在那個範圍，就是因為在那個範圍，所以全數撤離，因為他們已經全部撤離過一次，這次是第二次。","本席在這裡隆重告訴你，行政院政務委員季連成現在在花蓮前進協調所，跟地方政府協調7個部會依法要輔導地方政府，要核定疏散計畫、疏散路線、疏散收容，還有5個部會必須跟地方政府對整個收容整備計畫要做出來，從10月3號討論到現在，11天都還沒有演練、都還沒有核定。9月22號發布紅色警戒，在短短一天之內要光復鄉公所撤離8,600人，從600人變成8,600人，當然我要對部長說，你給地方的建議是可以垂直撤離，但是事實已經證明垂直撤離是不可行的！固然這也是撤離的方式之一，但是過去臺灣都沒有使用過，這次您特別強調，劉部長，要不要我幫您回憶一下？還是要放您的錄音帶給您聽聽看？有沒有需要？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員指教。"],["傅委員崐萁：要垂直撤離嘛！最多是家門口有水淹過而已嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想我的實意不是這個樣子，我正要從當時所有直播的狀況、錄音、錄影的部分，把原先所講的字數或是我講的部分，全部一字一字把它列出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：可以。"],["劉部長世芳：我所了解不是這樣的狀況，委員可能誤解了。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係啦！全國國人都可以來看。現在檢討報告裡面……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，垂直避難的人數總共是5,348人。"],["傅委員崐萁：檢討報告有一個很重要的，本席有詢問法務部、有詢問卓院長，統統都詢問過，請您在檢討報告裡面要把這兩項加進去。剛剛我謝謝蘇巧慧委員，蘇巧慧委員也有問過，8月11號花蓮縣政府光復鄉公所、農業部、經濟部所作的決議有錄音、有會議紀錄，要求農業部必須施放海嘯警報，請問指揮官放了沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：在9月23之前沒有施放過。"],["傅委員崐萁：9月23號當天海嘯來，有施放嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有。"],["傅委員崐萁：好。再過來，很奇怪，經濟部有問題，農業部有問題，但農業部又提醒經濟部。去年康芮颱風就是從這次的溢流口進來的，兩個開口堤要請他補起來，有錄音、有會議紀錄，結果經濟部又沒有把這兩個開口堤補好，大水就是從那裡進來的。部長，可以把這個納入檢討報告？可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：這個我會請農業部跟經濟部把相關的會議紀錄列出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：前進協調所給賴總統的報告，第1頁就講得很清楚，針對堰塞湖警戒發布，第一個就講得很清楚，要發海嘯警報，行政院在自證農業部其罪，還不止這樣！行政院又自證經濟部其罪，在前進協調所的報告，10月4號完成第一道5米防線，2,860公尺5米高的防線，還提前兩天作業完成，8月11號會議紀錄就叫他要做，為什麼災後他才會做，災前都不會做？"],["黃副署長宏莆：沒有，那2,870米是颱風來的時候沖毀的。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係啦！"],["黃副署長宏莆：不是在這次的專案小組會議……"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係啦！"],["黃副署長宏莆：專案小組會議交代的事項，我們都已經完成，這邊要跟委員報告一下。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席正告你，你要回去跟卓榮泰院長講，卓榮泰院長說要依法調查，要依法調查還給亡靈一個公道，你跟卓榮泰院長去報告。他不查，未來還有人會查。","接下來，最後我要請教劉世芳部長，我們有沒有中央政府？劉部長，我們有沒有中央政府？有沒有應變中心？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們當然有中央政府，但是中央災害應變中心注重在應變。"],["傅委員崐萁：請問一下，災情發生之後到現在，為了炒誰是主責，本席在10月7號問卓院長，這一題問了整整3分鐘，他才承認主責單位是行政院各部會，災後救災的部分是行政院各部會。那我請問一下，鋪天蓋地的謠言，依照災害防救法應該要來告發，是三年以下有期徒刑，併科罰金100萬，請問內政部告發了幾件？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們尊重院長的指示，先救災再究責，目前為止，我們蒐集……"],["傅委員崐萁：卓榮泰院長9月24號就去究責了，講得這麼清楚……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我先跟委員報告……"],["傅委員崐萁：我要將他的錄影帶再放出來給你看嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在蒐集到有40個……"],["傅委員崐萁：他到行政院提的施政總報告，馬上就提要究責！要查到底！這是院長提的，本席在這裡正告你，你說9次通報，花蓮縣政府草菅人民，不管！9次通報是只有第9次是紅色警界，其他前面6次是8月的楊柳颱風，這種造謠的圖卡，一天到晚在傳。第二，阻擋義煮團白飯，卓榮泰院長還說你們阻擋義煮團白飯。請問部長，是誰阻擋的？是誰阻擋的？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我不清楚。"],["傅委員崐萁：那該不該要查？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛還沒有……"],["傅委員崐萁：卓榮泰院長都公開講了吧！說你們擋義煮團的白飯，誰擋的啊？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在蒐集的資料……"],["傅委員崐萁：憲兵跟內政部來的保警擋下來的，誰擋的？該不該擋？本席問你該不該擋？"],["劉部長世芳：我還是跟委員報告，就是我們現在在蒐集所有的資料，而且我在第30次工作會報……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席讓你知道，你蒐集了這麼多天，地方政府疲於救災，10分的力量在救災，還要透支20分的力量來對付謠言。"],["劉部長世芳：所以請地方政府把這些謠言送給中央災害應變中心，我們用災害防救法來移送都沒有問題。"],["傅委員崐萁：內政部這麼大的部，沒有辦法查辦嗎？沒有辦法告發嗎？一天到晚看到這些，本席現在告訴你……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，告發是另外一回事，但是我們先蒐集所有的資料也是很重要。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席沒有責怪內政部的保警、沒有責怪憲兵，因為他們在詢問是否有義務要進去災區，災區裡面全部塞得滿滿，有幾萬人在裡面，重機械連會車都沒有辦法，他們本來就要問你進來要幹什麼，他們不只是義煮團的白飯，問清楚以後就讓他們進去了，也沒有阻擋，問清楚就進去了；慈濟的藥品問清楚後也都進去了，沒有一粒白飯擋在外面，通通進來了。","再過來，說花蓮縣府把獨輪車藏起來了，結果事實上是什麼？事實上是行政院東辦的倉庫，不是花蓮縣政府的倉庫。所謂擋義煮團白飯，是為了圖利熱海便當，花蓮縣城隍廟已經出來告了，所有的熱海便當全部是城隍廟送的，花蓮縣政府沒有買熱海便當，全部在造謠。還有高壓水槍，說傅崐萁、徐榛蔚只會貼貼紙，把人家捐出來的東西貼貼紙。對不起，這是花蓮縣政府環保局買的，這是公務，本來就應該要載明它是哪個單位所屬的。還有7歲女童拔管死掉了，賺人熱淚，後來是謠言。","這一次的救災荒腔走板，主責單位是誰？問了卓榮泰院長問了3分鐘，他才說是行政院各部會。這是我們的政府，要讓鏟子超人……臺灣有一流的國民，五流的政府！"],["主席：謝謝傅總召的質詢。","接下來我們請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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園民會主委"},{"start":407.884,"end":430.589,"text":"你也可以在場我問一下內政部的部長請問在受災戶的基本數據上面是不是已經掌握到了受災戶的總數因為今天第三個最重要的議題就是災害復原的重建這也是所有民眾最想要知道的所以如果你沒有災戶的總數的話"},{"start":432.509,"end":448.66,"text":"或者是原住民跟漢人家庭的具體住戶的數據然後依據他的損毀的程度來劃分重中輕的級別還有中低收入戶的識別的統計我們如果沒有這些數據"},{"start":450.694,"end":456.757,"text":"繼續要混亂下去嗎請問部長報告委員我們在第一時間內行政院已經通知也是受到這樣子的影響我們公布了這次花蓮縣這三個鄉鎮那同時我們以這個9月21當時公布的1837戶為原則來處理後面的包括很多這個不管修繕也好或是家園復原的部分所以1837戶是非常明確的數字所以所有光復鄉這次燕射湖的災民總共1837戶"},{"start":481.559,"end":482.044,"text":"原名有幾戶"},{"start":485.543,"end":499.914,"text":"謝謝 我們這裡看原住民的戶數大概是有1772戶所以1837戶原住民就占了1700多戶就是原住民的戶數請你講正確的戶數大概是1772戶1772所以剛剛部長說所有的災民是1837戶原住民就占了1772戶是這樣子嗎 沒有錯嗎這樣子的數據 請問主委"},{"start":515.428,"end":516.409,"text":"請問部長原住民的戶數是1772戶請問部長"},{"start":521.314,"end":546.831,"text":"我們是協助為主所以原住民他的認定就是以原住民認定為主好所以1837戶原住民就佔了1772所以是原住民的族人是受災最多的那我要再繼續問一下主委在1772戶裡面有多少是中低收入戶有多少戶是重度的他可能要遷村的"},{"start":547.972,"end":555.517,"text":"有多少戶他是中度的也就是說他的家園他可能損壞他還可以進去住那有一些可能只是他的電器設備裝潢受災損這些數據你有嗎我跟委員報告這個低收入戶還有中低收入戶我們都有大概是232加212"},{"start":569.71,"end":573.911,"text":"232加什麼232的低收入戶然後212是中低收入戶232戶是低收入戶那我剛剛說的有沒有分我剛剛說的就是重度災難中度跟輕度這樣子的數據是多少這個我們要先做安全的評估啦安全評估要先做出來"},{"start":598.018,"end":619.423,"text":"房屋的結構安全的這個評估要先做出來還沒有做但是重點是現在是這樣那各位報告沒有沒有沒有主委主委主委你先停一下安全評估報告是後續那你現在應該這些戶數都出來了應該很清楚知道有哪些是不能回家的嘛"},{"start":620.424,"end":635.972,"text":"有沒有有我們跟他們在做部落會議不能回家你不要講部落會議我先問你不能回家的有幾戶那不能回家的我們才會有後續啊要怎麼樣安置他們啊能夠回家的我們要怎麼樣協助他們啊對不對來麻煩比較確定是49戶了49戶怎麼樣"},{"start":644.497,"end":648.08,"text":"現在是安置在民宿現在不能夠回家的4449戶沒有辦法回家沒有辦法回家然後中渡呢"},{"start":652.878,"end":681.344,"text":"我們就是中度的部分我們還要再查他可以回去啦因為現在不是都清的差不多了嗎他應該都知道他能夠回去因為我們鄉親很不喜歡離開家鄉嘛那有多少戶中度有的是一清啦有的是回去我知道你不要浪費時間好沒關係這些確定的數據麻煩您在我的辦公室再告訴我你們要怎麼後續做好不好"},{"start":681.789,"end":700.237,"text":"另外我要請部長部長你身為警消人員的大家長在這裡我有一個請求就是要幫忙辛苦的警消人員因為有許多警察的私家車他在執勤的時候也是泡水受損了但是依照現行的規定"},{"start":701.337,"end":719.905,"text":"他們只是修復或轉售他們連一毛補助都拿不到而這些為民擋災的基層人員他今天要自己承受損失我請問一下部長你有沒有聽過這第一線的警消人員他的心聲他們可以納入被"},{"start":720.825,"end":748.419,"text":"排場的範圍嗎報告委員我們在第一時間內有有到三四個這個我們的第一線的這個派出所裡面去慰請那這道狀況如果是公務車的話呢我們按照公務車的修復或者公務車的補償這個我們警消自己會用預算來處理那如果是私家的部分假設他也是屬於1837戶的受災範圍內的話現在我們這個行政院的一站式服務有針對報廢車也有做提供這樣子的補償的機制不好意思部長你可能還"},{"start":749.359,"end":757.301,"text":"不夠精準因為他如果他不是這個1837戶的人但是事實上他是在那邊工作他沒有戶籍在那裡那他怎麼處理因為您所提到的1837戶我們確定譬如說有8000多的人口但是他是在那個地方等於是他是不在籍但是不在那邊執勤"},{"start":772.446,"end":780.472,"text":"那執勤的部分的話我們會來做部分的補償我知道您的意思是他去那邊上班然後他是私家車他不是公務車這個我們來處理請部長我短暫時間內會去了解一下其實這些在第一線擋災的警消人員他們負擔也很重的我知道他們非常的辛苦"},{"start":793.923,"end":806.829,"text":"所以我們有保警來做替代一個禮拜以後有八十一個人在替代我希望部長也能夠清楚知道他們的困境不好意思 稍微我再花一點時間我要要求一下請園民會請你們"},{"start":809.442,"end":834.159,"text":"一週之內提交幾個報告給我第一個是臨時工作人員的名冊當然在保護個資之下他的薪資、他的保險、經費明細還有受災戶的細部統計第二個就是青年參與重建決策的會議記錄還有後續執行成果第三個原民服務台每天受理案件跟主要需求的分析報告"},{"start":835.26,"end":838.341,"text":"第四個災後無法營業的原住民商家的清澈當然這是有營業登記的還有整體扶植的計畫因為這些商家也很辛苦第五個災後就職的轉嫌還有部落的再生計畫說明如何從上工來銜接到產業賠利還有長期的就業這五個麻煩提出來給我然後在這裡我要請相關部會"},{"start":865.727,"end":870.29,"text":"只要是今天有來的 麻煩你一下你們也在兩週內提供 第一個近五年的堰塞湖的災情的通報撤離啟動還有實際人數的統計並且要檢討制度的落差第二個要研議災防法第24條以及執法的修正草案 第三個"},{"start":889.765,"end":909.676,"text":"重整災害緊急通報的格式要明確的標示警戒的分級執行責任跟法律的效力這個可能要請部長辛苦一下本席也要求按照災防法第37條災後復原重建的程序請在場的各部會"},{"start":913.398,"end":920.081,"text":"給本席一份完整的規劃報告最後我要講的是重建不該只於補貼還有清瑜更應該要補起制度的漏洞要重建人民的信任如果制度依舊是冷漠的下一次的災難不僅僅是摧毀我們的道路還有家園更會摧毀我們人民對國家的信任希望今天在場的所有官員公務人員們"},{"start":943.171,"end":957.08,"text":"緊記的這件我最後所說的話災害如果不好好的做他不是摧毀家園而是摧毀我們人民對國家的信任這是非常重要的以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":590,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時40分）謝謝召委。召委今天排的是「堰塞湖監測、災害預警通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」。今天這個議題非常的沉重，我相信不管是任何在這邊的立法委員還有在場的官員們，我們都不願意發生這樣的情況，所以今天我們在討論這件事情的時候，我希望大家能夠非常的嚴肅，而且要心懷善意，而不是站在政黨的立場來看這件事情。這是一個中央的機制，這是一個政策的問題，所以我必須要說，今天來了非常多的部會，我一一的唱名讓大家知道，內政部，內政部裡面有消防署及所屬災害管理組、資通作業中心、整備應變組，以及警政署民防指揮管制所、國土管理署、民政司。然後原民會也來了，農業部也來了，然後今天還有經濟部水利署、環境部環境管理署、資源循環署，衛生福利部有社會救助及社工司、心理建設司、醫事司、疾病管制署及中央健康保險署醫務管理組，還有行政院公共工程委員會技術處。大家可以看到，光是一個風災，或者是一個堰塞湖的災難，中央部會就來了這麼多部會，今天我很想請問，當然今天內政部有來，我們先請部長，然後農業部常務次長也有來，我也請原民會上臺，其他的部會我們待會再請上臺。"],["主席：請以上高金委員提到的官員列席。"],["高金委員素梅：在場的大家都要向第一線投入搶救的鏟子超人、志工以及自發支援的鄉親致上我們最深的敬意，他們用他們的雙手撐起了人性的光輝。而第一個我想問的是，在堰塞湖的監測上面，我的結論是，我不想講細節的問題，但是我的感受是，我們中央政府掉以輕心了，你們的報告上面也說，早在7月26日你們就已經開始監測，並且在8月27日成立了專案小組，這意味著什麼呢？這意味著中央有超過一個月的應變準備時間，然而中央卻低估了災情的嚴重性，你們認為它只是一個堰塞湖，你們認為它的水位沒有到多少，所以沒有立即的危險，但是你們忘了9月份是臺灣最多颱風的時候，現在氣候變遷，所有雨下絕對是急遽的下來，所以我要說你們掉以輕心了，大家都不願意這件事情發生，就是因為你們的掉以輕心，讓整個應變機制從源頭就已經失能了。我覺得很奇怪也納悶，既然中央已經知道這麼嚴重，為什麼不召開一個非常正式的記者會對外來說明，有可能這個堰塞湖會造成什麼樣的災難？因為你只是鎖定光復鄉，只是鎖定在地方政府，但是有非常多的家人已經離開光復鄉在外面工作了，所以如果我們的政府可以像一般國外海嘯要來的時候，事先發布一個正式的記者會，我相信這樣的記者會會讓當地的鄉親或是在外的鄉親嚴陣以待，會非常重視這件事情，而不是到了緊急的時候，部長說一個垂直避難，請問一下，在那麼短的時間之內，你要怎麼疏散八千多人？所以我認為真的是掉以輕心了，你們可以不用回答。","第二個，災害預警通報跟疏散的機制，因為掉以輕心，所以整個中央單位、地方單位，大家是驚嚇的、大家是混亂的，因為預警階段的輕忽，導致第一時間的應對也陷入了混亂，第一時間我就打電話請我們部落有小怪手的、有工作能力的，組織了一個小小的團隊進入到了災區，一村、一村，而我自己也進去了，已經到了幾天，我還看到地方非常地混亂，有看到國軍了，有看到中央的應對小組了，有看到地方的應對小組了，可是我發現中央你們的橫向聯繫也非常地混亂，甚至於你們跟地方的縱向聯繫也非常地混亂，我不知道是溝通不良，還是故意有政治的居心，我希望不要有政治的居心，這樣的混亂導致了指揮鏈的崩潰，這是我對這一次的災害所下的兩個結論。","當然，在災防法的部分要怎麼樣進行更細緻的修法還有分級的規範，我在這邊請召委也能夠安排討論相關的修法，讓災防法能夠更明確、更清楚，我們來討論、來修法，好不好？我們不希望下次再有這麼樣混亂的局面出現。","有一些相關的議題，我們請部長留下來，農業部可以先休息一下，原民會主委也可以在場。我問一下內政部部長，請問在受災戶的基本數據上面，是不是已經掌握到了受災戶的總數？因為今天第三個最重要的議題就是災害復原的重建，這也是所有民眾最想要知道的，如果你們沒有災戶總數或是原住民跟漢人家庭具體住戶的數據，以及依據其損毀的程度來劃分重、中、輕的級別，還有中低收入戶的識別等這些數據的統計，如果沒有這些數據，要繼續混亂下去嗎？請問部長。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，第一時間行政院已經通知，也是受到這樣的影響，我們公布了花蓮縣這三個鄉鎮，同時，我們以9月21日當時公布的1,837戶為原則來處理後面的部分，包括很多，不管是修繕也好，或是家園復原的部分，所以1,837戶是非常明確的數字。"],["高金委員素梅：所以所有光復鄉這次堰塞湖的災民總共是1,837戶？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，原民有幾戶？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。我們這裡看原住民的戶數大概是有1,772戶。"],["高金委員素梅：所以1,837戶中原住民就占了一千七百多戶？請你講正確的戶數。"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是原住民的戶數大概是1,772戶。"],["高金委員素梅：1,772戶。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以剛剛部長說所有的災民是1,837戶，原住民就占了1,772戶，是這樣子嗎？這樣的數據沒有錯嗎？請問主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對啊，原住民的戶數是1,772戶。"],["高金委員素梅：請問部長。"],["劉部長世芳：因為我們是協助為主，所以原住民戶數的認定就是以原民會的認定為主。"],["高金委員素梅：好，1,837戶中原住民就占了1,772戶，所以原住民的族人是受災最多的。我要再繼續問一下主委，在1,772戶裡面有多少是中低收入戶？有多少戶是重度的，也就是他可能要遷村的，有多少戶是中度的，也就是他的家園損壞，但可能他還可以進去住，有一些可能只是他的電器設備、裝潢受災損，這些數據你有嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，低收入戶還有中低收入戶的數據我們都有，大概是232加212。"],["高金委員素梅：232加什麼？"],["曾主任委員智勇：232的低收入戶。"],["高金委員素梅：OK，然後212是……"],["曾主任委員智勇：中低收入戶。"],["高金委員素梅：232戶是低收入戶？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。那麼跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：有沒有分為我剛剛說的，就是重度災難、中度跟輕度，這樣的數據是多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個我們要先做安全的評估，安全評估要先做出來，就是房屋結構安全評估要先做出來，還沒有做。但現在重點是這樣，跟委員報告，我們現在一直……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有、沒有，主委，你先停一下，安全評估報告是後續，現在這些戶數都出來了，應該很清楚知道有哪些是不能回家的嘛，有沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有，我們跟他們在做部落會議座談時……"],["高金委員素梅：你不要講部落會議，我現在問你不能回家的有幾戶？不能回家的，我們才會有後續作為，要怎麼樣安置他們，能夠回家的，我們要怎麼樣協助他們，對不對？麻煩一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：比較確定的是49戶。"],["高金委員素梅：49戶怎麼樣？"],["曾主任委員智勇：現在是安置在民宿。"],["高金委員素梅：現在不能夠回家的有49戶。"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有辦法回家。"],["高金委員素梅：中度呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：中度的部分我們還要再查。"],["高金委員素梅：他可以回去了，現在不是都清得差不多了嗎？他應該都知道他能夠回去，因為我們鄉親很不喜歡離開家鄉，那有多少戶是中度的？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有的是依親，有的是回去……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，你不要浪費時間！好，沒關係，這些確定的數據，麻煩您來我的辦公室再告訴我你們後續要怎麼做，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：另外我要請部長，部長，你身為警消人員的大家長，在這裡我有一個請求，就是要幫忙辛苦的警消人員，因為有許多警察的私家車，他在執勤的時候也是泡水受損了，但是依照現行的規定，他們只是修復或轉售，他們連一毛補助都拿不到，而這些為民擋災的基層人員今天他要自己承受損失，我請問一下部長，你有沒有聽過第一線警消人員的心聲？他們可以納入被賠償的範圍嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們在第一時間內有到3、4個第一線的派出所裡面去慰勤，知道狀況，如果是公務車的話，我們按照公務車的修復或者公務車的補償，這個部分警消自己會用預算來處理；如果是私家的部分，假設他也是屬於受災的1,837戶的範圍內的話，現在行政院的一站式服務有針對報廢車，也有提供這樣的補償跟……"],["高金委員素梅：不好意思，部長，你可能還不夠精準，如果他不屬於其中這1,837戶的人，但事實上他是在那邊工作，他沒有戶籍在那裡，這個部分怎麼處理？"],["劉部長世芳：了解，那個我們來處理，因為您所提到的1,837戶，我們確定有八千多的人口，但他是在那個地方……"],["高金委員素梅：對啊，他是執勤啊，但是不在籍啊。"],["劉部長世芳：等於不在籍，但是在這邊執勤。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊。"],["劉部長世芳：執勤的部分，我們會來做部分的補償，我知道您的意思，他去那邊上班，然後他是用私家車，他不是用公務車。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["劉部長世芳：這個我們來處理，我在短時間內會去了解一下這個狀況。"],["高金委員素梅：對，請部長去了解一下，其實這些在第一線擋災的警消人員，他們的負擔也很重。"],["劉部長世芳：我了解，我知道，他們非常地辛苦，所以我們有保警來做替代，一個禮拜以後有81個人在替代他們做……"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝，我希望部長也能夠清楚知道他們的困境，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，他們有陳報上來。"],["高金委員素梅：不好意思，召委，我再花一點時間。我要求一下，請原民會一週之內提交幾個報告給我，第一個是臨時工作人員的名冊，當然在保護個資之下，他的薪資、他的保險、經費明細還有受災戶的細部統計；第二個就是青年參與重建決策的會議紀錄還有後續執行成果；第三個，原民服務臺每天受理案件跟主要需求的分析報告；第四個，災後無法營業的原住民商家清冊，當然這是有營業登記的，還有整體的扶植計畫，因為這些商家也很辛苦；第五個，災後就職的轉銜還有部落的再生計畫，說明如何從上工銜接到產業培力還有長期就業，這五個麻煩提出來給我。","然後在這裡我要請相關部會，只要是今天有來的，麻煩一下，你們也在兩週內提供，第一個，近五年堰塞湖的災情通報、撤離啟動還有實際人數的統計，並且要檢討制度的落差；第二個，要研議災防法第二十四條以及子法的修正草案；第三個，重整災害緊急通報的格式，要明確標示警戒分級、執行責任跟法律效力，這個部分可能要請部長辛苦一下。本席也要求按照災防法第三十七條災後復原重建程序，請在場的各部會給本席1份完整的規劃報告。最後，我要講的是，重建不該止於補貼還有清淤，更應該要補起制度的漏洞，要重建人民的信任，如果制度依舊是冷漠的，下一次的災難不僅僅是摧毀我們的道路還有家園，更會摧毀人民對國家的信任。希望今天在場的所有官員、公務人員們謹記著我最後所說的話，災害如果不好好地處理，它不是摧毀家園，而是摧毀人民對國家的信任，這是非常重要的，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金委員的發言。接下來請傅崐萁總召發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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11點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是陸警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流"},{"start":106.961,"end":108.155,"text":"那請花蓮先生立即"},{"start":109.309,"end":138.132,"text":"這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施然後到9月232點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離"},{"start":140.312,"end":141.553,"text":"這個應該是有我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家沙風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎"},{"start":166.431,"end":181.385,"text":"我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的對我現在指的是畫家沙封災對畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下那這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少"},{"start":197.205,"end":200.506,"text":"所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責"},{"start":214.691,"end":217.392,"text":"那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎"},{"start":229.386,"end":252.424,"text":"就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對 那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛 對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對"},{"start":254.305,"end":259.172,"text":"花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里"},{"start":271.529,"end":298.829,"text":"兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長、光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離"},{"start":299.953,"end":316.045,"text":"報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候我們邀集包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的人數往上調升"},{"start":317.146,"end":343.681,"text":"到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協助一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們"},{"start":344.221,"end":345.824,"text":"那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎延復縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命"},{"start":357.096,"end":377.31,"text":"那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報"},{"start":389.224,"end":409.142,"text":"報告委員這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在顏色湖的因為他並不是這個法定可以使用這個海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令那個是嗎我特別要這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過他欠缺法源"},{"start":409.822,"end":430.901,"text":"但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為"},{"start":432.522,"end":439.048,"text":"因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字那細胞簡訊有發嗎有有有細胞簡訊有發給你細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶"},{"start":452.56,"end":469.992,"text":"922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在匡聯的區統統都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":470.872,"end":479.697,"text":"其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要"},{"start":496.165,"end":508.688,"text":"趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人"},{"start":517.386,"end":520.689,"text":"來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百"},{"start":537.501,"end":541.102,"text":"4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您"},{"start":553.577,"end":570.875,"text":"這個社會防禁委員會 主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備 您跟我講不是它是重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防禦任性 我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的 我們要這個目前有多少名利 請問一下"},{"start":572.369,"end":596.581,"text":"部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再檢查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工"},{"start":597.481,"end":618.82,"text":"那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下 也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們的全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎"},{"start":620.078,"end":626.16,"text":"就是我剛所說的 我們有一些易景易銷 民房全部加在內去年 應該說今年有3億8千多萬的一個經費請問一下 在這一次的這個 我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果"},{"start":638.824,"end":646.605,"text":"跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的齁包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用"},{"start":667.749,"end":680.486,"text":"因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要"},{"start":682.034,"end":699.604,"text":"去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明就是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是一千七百七十七"},{"start":700.919,"end":706.582,"text":"那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候"},{"start":729.376,"end":733.379,"text":"應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限"},{"start":746.428,"end":752.333,"text":"但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種就單的時候發揮效果但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位"},{"start":763.803,"end":772.526,"text":"而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責而是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候重要是要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內"},{"start":791.992,"end":795.515,"text":"為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛 人力就是不夠如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個"},{"start":814.072,"end":832.418,"text":"這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離"},{"start":837.881,"end":858.222,"text":"有啊 我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園 原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助"},{"start":859.944,"end":862.206,"text":"那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個"},{"start":877.159,"end":883.783,"text":"在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個花家鄉風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後"},{"start":899.335,"end":900.937,"text":"警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全"},{"start":908.598,"end":912.979,"text":"那我覺得其實在不管是國家公安署或警察局都已經知道要料敵重演的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為畫家沙封栽要來所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話"},{"start":935.822,"end":944.557,"text":"像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":499,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時24分）謝謝主席、謝謝召委，請劉世芳部長、原民會曾主委，還有農業部杜文珍次長。"],["主席：請以上列席。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好，還有曾主委、杜次長。這一次的樺加沙颱風來襲，造成了很大的災害，這也是我們今天召開這個專報的原因，大家要共同探討事前跟事後，以及未來要如何預防。","這次從9月21號上午9點召開首次會議開始，當時馬太鞍堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右，一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村里，大概只有600人，但是在晚間6點召開第3次會議的時候，撤離的人數就從600人要增加到7,000、8,000人，所以包括鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長都說，在短期內要通知這些民眾離開是有困難的，他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了。我們來看一下林保署的通報時間，總共有9次的通報撤離，第一次是在9月20日的一般警戒；第二次是在9月21日11點的黃色警戒，就是海警已經發布之後；第三次是在9月22日7時的紅色警戒，就是陸警已經發布之後，那時候也提醒堰塞湖可能在23日或24日會發生壩頂溢流，請花蓮縣政府立即執行強制性的撤離跟應變措施，到9月23日2點50分堰塞湖就溢流了。","針對這個部分我想請教一下，在9月22號7點發布的紅色警戒，當時有關樺加沙風災的相關區域，多少鄉鎮有發布這樣紅色警戒，總共大概有多少人數需要撤離？"],["林署長華慶：我們是針對花蓮縣政府跟光復、鳳林及萬榮鄉公所，就是針對921下午6點的那個決議來發送。"],["許委員宇甄：所以那時候樺加沙風災針對臺東沒有發布，只有針對花蓮，是嗎？"],["林署長華慶：我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的區域。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我現在指的是樺加沙風災。"],["林署長華慶：對，樺加沙。"],["許委員宇甄：樺加沙風災應該不是只有花蓮嘛！臺東還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛？"],["林署長華慶：但是農業部是針對馬太鞍堰塞湖的部分發布。"],["許委員宇甄：那請教一下這個問題應該要由誰回答？當時針對紅色警戒，你們發了多少鄉鎮必須要撤離，還有撤離的總人數是多少？如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話，代表我們的部會在針對這個部分有很大的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，有關於您提到這次非花蓮堰塞湖，如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的話，是農業部的水保署在負責，這次包括臺東縣政府或屏東縣政府，雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒，但是風雨過了以後，這個黃色警戒就解除了。"],["許委員宇甄：所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣，是這樣嗎？"],["林署長華慶：就是針對馬太鞍堰塞湖如果溢流可能影響的區域。"],["許委員宇甄：對，那你就告訴我只有……因為你是農業部，對不對？"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你只針對堰塞湖的部分，但我現在指的是樺加沙風災的時候。"],["林署長華慶：剛剛劉部長有說，在臺東地區有一些……"],["許委員宇甄：因為還不到紅色警戒，所以沒有撤離的必要，是這樣嗎？"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["許委員宇甄：等於這次只有針對花蓮的部分。"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想請教一下，剛剛講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說，短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難。我們可以看一下，花蓮光復鄉的占地面積有157.1平方公里，鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里，兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里，比整個臺北市都大，在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長去做這樣的通知撤離是有非常大的一個問題，所以他們也提出希望中央能夠來協助。請問一下當時中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的，有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在9月21日下午的時候，我們邀集花蓮縣政府還有3個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括臺大還有陽明交大的會議，當時他們就知道我們會把撤離的人數往上調升到1,800戶，後來農業部再追加變成1,837戶，他們已經知道，所以我們在9月22號下午3點第5次工作會報的時候，花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們，我們兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車8輛、救護車1輛、兵力54名、警消跟協作105名、替代役13名……"],["許委員宇甄：他們有沒有要求中央，就是內政部這邊提供協助？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們提供這個部分給他們。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣子他們就可以處理，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：顏副縣長是這樣回復給我們的，所以我們就是按照這個方式，我們的國軍弟兄是第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命。"],["許委員宇甄：照理說，如果提供這樣的協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話，應該最後不會發生這麼多的問題，所以到底中央跟地方在溝通協調上有什麼樣的狀況，我覺得我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討。還有剛剛大家都一直提到海嘯警報，照理說，當我們發現可能有潰堤的狀況的時候，為什麼不發布海嘯警報？"],["林署長華慶：報告委員，這部分我來說明一下，海嘯警報之前是不適用在堰塞湖的，因為它並不是法定可以使用海嘯警報的範圍。"],["許委員宇甄：所以等於就是拘泥於法令，是嗎？"],["林署長華慶：這個其實之前有討論過，也跟相關部會討論過，它欠缺法源，但是我要說明，剛剛蘇巧慧委員也有示範，你前面沒有任何的宣導教育，沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思，你突然發布，大家還是不知道，所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛您有提到，說之前就有討論過這個問題，但是就不了了之，是嗎？"],["林署長華慶：不是不了了之，因為聲音……"],["許委員宇甄：我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做，為什麼會有一個海嘯警報……"],["林署長華慶：不是，它有細胞簡訊，還有文字……"],["許委員宇甄：那細胞簡訊有發嗎？"],["林署長華慶：有，細胞簡訊有文字，它會比聲音更直觀。"],["許委員宇甄：請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶？"],["林署長華慶：922之後總共發了8次，就是在堰塞湖……"],["許委員宇甄：總共發了多少戶？你剛剛說造冊的這些通通都有嗎？"],["林署長華慶：只要在光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到，就是在匡列的區通通都收得到。"],["許委員宇甄：好，當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["林署長華慶：其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更快，因為還有包含村里的廣播……"],["許委員宇甄：其實就像剛剛提的，你聽到防空警報，你就知道趕快要逃難了，同樣的，你聽到海嘯警報，因為有時候不見得他會在看簡訊，所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上去檢討，是不是該用海嘯警報這樣一個方式，不要再拘泥在法令上面，我覺得這個一定要趕快來檢討。"],["林署長華慶：大家認為有用就會增加。"],["許委員宇甄：我們從這次的撤離看起來，其實很多都是人禍的問題，而不完全是天災，也是因為很多一連串的疏忽而發生這樣的問題。","尤其想請教一下劉部長，因為剛剛其實有很多人有提到這次有很多的鏟子志工、鏟子超人來到這邊協助救災，我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛韌性委員會，是由總統擔任召集人，去年我們在審查今年度預算的時候也多編了大概四億一千多萬的全社會防衛韌性訓練工作的相關經費，最後通過三億八千多萬。請問一下，針對這個社會防衛韌性委員會，我當時有請教過您，這個社會防衛韌性委員會編列這麼多預算，主要是不是在為救災做準備？你跟我講不是，它的重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力。請問在這一次這個社會防衛韌性，也就是我們所謂的民力，請問部長，目前有多少民力？"],["劉部長世芳：多少民力？"],["許委員宇甄：對，就是所謂民防的人力。"],["劉部長世芳：你問的是編制內的，還是編制外的？"],["許委員宇甄：編制內多少？編制外多少？"],["劉部長世芳：如果把一般的，包括替代役或者是警消、義警這些全部加在內的話，大約是20萬上下，但是詳細的數字容我再去查一下。"],["許委員宇甄：編制外的呢？"],["劉部長世芳：編制外就是所謂的志工，志工的部分我們現在也有大量在做這方面的訓練，訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會，像慈濟基金會這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次，也是有受到防災士的訓練。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下部長，您所謂的我們的全社會防衛韌性工作裡面的民力到底是多少？就是您剛剛講的二十幾萬，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：就是我剛所說的，我們有一些義警、義消、民防全部加在內，還有替代役……"],["許委員宇甄：今年有三億八千多萬的經費，請問一下在這一次馬太鞍堰塞湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，就是我剛剛跟您提到的，包括慈濟基金會，或者是我們備役或是現役的替代役都有動員……"],["許委員宇甄：慈濟基金會算是你剛剛講的體制外，我現在講的是體制內的。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，是編制內，我講的不是體制內外，是編制外和編制內。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那編制內的民力這一次到底發揮了什麼效果？因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬，就告訴我們說，要用來救災、要用來提升應變的能力，請問這次有發揮什麼樣的作用？因為我們看到的都是鏟子超人、鏟子志工帶六萬多的鏟子志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙，這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力、不該就是民防的人力應該要加入、應該要去做的，但為什麼現在都是志工在做，我們真正的民力發揮了什麼效果？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點……"],["許委員宇甄：好，我在這邊讓你說明是怎麼樣。"],["劉部長世芳：我們這次統計出來，我手上的就是統計資料，我們是3萬1,685，如果是替代役的話，是1,777。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣一個效果？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們的人……"],["許委員宇甄：那顯然一定是人力不夠，對不對？你剛剛講我們有22萬的民力，為什麼不能從其他地方也調集過來？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了，有關於替代役的部分，全臺灣除了花蓮以外的22個縣市，我們也都調動了。"],["許委員宇甄：對，但替代役畢竟人數少，我現在指的是，當你發覺需要這麼多志工的時候，應該是要由內政部來調度所有的民力，因為他們是有經過訓練的，鏟子志工雖然有熱忱，可是他們不見得有訓練的能力，所以變成可能會有這樣子的狀況，就是他到現場，他很有熱忱，可是能夠協助的畢竟有限，但是我們平常訓練這麼多的民力，本來就該在這種救災中發揮效果。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們還沒有訓練完畢，不好意思，但是我們已經儘量在調動，而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我覺得這個部分一定要好好的事後檢討。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["許委員宇甄：我們既然有一個全社會防衛韌性這麼重要的單位，而且民力有這麼多，可是卻沒有在這次發揮效果，我覺得有很大的一個問題，請部長要好好檢討。"],["劉部長世芳：我還是非常肯定這些民力。"],["許委員宇甄：當然，在這個過程中，說實在我們不是在究責，而是在探討未來要怎麼去預防、未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果，尤其是在我的觀點裡，這些民力平常就訓練過，在訓練有素的狀況下到現場災區去，應該可以發揮更大的效果。"],["劉部長世芳：他們包括搜救人力都算在內，我們這次救出717人……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道，我的意思是，為什麼還需要六萬多的志工到現場？表示人力就是不夠嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：志工自願來幫忙，我們非常感謝。"],["許委員宇甄：如果不是看到現場一片災難、一片狼藉，不會有這麼多人自發性的過去。所以我在這邊跟部長探討，今年度我們一定還要再編列各項有關民防、民力的預算，我們怎麼去真正的讓它發揮效果，我覺得這是重點。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的肯定。"],["許委員宇甄：不好意思，因為我剛剛有請曾主委上來，我只要請教他一句，因為這個地方算原鄉，原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的，所以在這次撤離的溝通過程中，內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊，我們協助的部分就是，我們調了全國的原住民社工員，尤其是會阿美族語的，我們一次就調，希望他們可以做家戶拜訪及慰助金的發放等等，協助了很多，最多的時候是一天到74個人，就是由我們來協助。"],["許委員宇甄：所以這次等於原民會也有協助內政部去進行撤離？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有、有。"],["許委員宇甄：相信這個部分可能也是一個重點，因為那邊是原鄉。","最後再提醒各位，在登山的時候，我記得有一些朋友告訴我，內政部可以參考一下警察局，在這一次樺加沙颱風快要來之前，在9月21日早上8點44分海上颱風警報已經發布之後，警察局、國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山行程，以維護安全。我覺得不管是國家公園署或警察局都已經知道要料敵從寬的狀況之下，甚至他們在9月18日就已經打電話通知這些山友，因為樺加沙颱風要來，所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程。也就是說，如果這段時間，我們都能夠以這樣的心情提早的告知、提早的告訴他們要撤離的話，像國家公園署和警察局這樣的話，應該這次的災難就不會這麼嚴重。提供這樣的訊息，要請大家一起來參考，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","接下來請高金素梅委員質詢。在高金素梅委員及李柏毅委員質詢之後，我們再休息。請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 麻煩有請主委我們請捧主委委員好主委好10月10號國慶致辭的時候賴總統在演講當中又提到亞洲資產管理中心因為這個名詞上次在質詢的時候有請教過主委所以我聽到了以後我就"},{"start":31.724,"end":55.112,"text":"我不曉得該說驚訝還是驚喜顯然是賴總統一個非常重要的政見那這個名詞其實大家都不陌生第一次出現有關於政府要打造台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心大概回溯到2001年的時候阿扁總統其實就有撥話這樣子的願景"},{"start":57.759,"end":73.052,"text":"那到蔡總統的時候他說要成為一個亞洲企業資金調度級高階資產管理中心名稱稍微長一點大概意思差不多到賴總統的時候就是亞洲資產管理中心我上次就請教就是說劃定目標"},{"start":82.247,"end":103.865,"text":"我覺得沒有錯啦有方向是個好事但從2001年口號聽到現在大家可能比較關心的事情是它是繼續淪為口號還是有什麼具體上面的實踐所以我大概去了解了一下你們亞洲資產管理中心到底在做了什麼事情"},{"start":104.841,"end":121.33,"text":"那我看了這張圖我有一點驚訝這個是你們之前應該有開記者會嘛找了很多金融業者亞洲資產管理中心高雄專區大概橫跨鹽埕、乾金、新興、林亞跟前鎮區這樣一個地理區位的畫設"},{"start":123.604,"end":149.838,"text":"讓台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心它有什麼實際的意義我有點看不太懂請教一下主委是 我想跟委員報告這只是我們16項計畫其中一個叫地方資產管理專區我們整個亞洲資產管理中心涵蓋各個行業這個主要的是希望針對我們的銀行業來設計結合了證券投資這只是其中計畫之一這不是亞洲資產管理中心的全部"},{"start":150.978,"end":178.612,"text":"對 我同意這應該不會是亞洲資產管理中心的全部現在我的問題是你在這邊把五個行政區劃進來成為高雄專區成為亞洲資產管理專區也好成為台灣金融業要進一步向上提升的動力也好其中的一個計畫 對到底有什麼實質的意義我到目前為止看不懂好 跟委員我這樣講好了在你現在劃的高雄專區裡面有幾家銀行"},{"start":180.174,"end":201.176,"text":"幾家保險 幾家投信十七家銀行 四家保險 八家投信股你是不是知道在台北市的信義區有幾家銀行這我倒沒有統計幾家保險 幾家投信保險公司 那母公司的話其實我這樣子說好了啦就是說在地理上面"},{"start":202.031,"end":218.513,"text":"去畫一個這樣子的區域出來當然我希望對於高雄的地方經濟的發展有幫忙啦但是把它直接跟亞洲資產管理中心其中的一個目標在高雄設這樣子的專區它具體的實效性在哪裡我真的必須要老實說"},{"start":219.733,"end":236.37,"text":"我完全看不懂我完全看不懂我可以跟委員解釋一分鐘嗎可以 請第一個就是因為我們在做資產管理假設你針對高資產客戶的時候你必須要有很多新辦的業務是所以我們在高雄專區很重要就是我們一個大型的試辦計畫在那邊"},{"start":237.931,"end":262.928,"text":"所以我們必須要先有個區域的部分做示範當然原來高雄市政府提供兩棟大樓給他們選擇但是基於他們實務的考量我們後來改成劃定跟指定就先以這個區域裡面你來指定重點是那個人事棟的我們整個怎麼在一個有限的範圍之內來申請核准以後我這樣說好了啦以市場管理中心來講跟金融業的本質一樣第一個是信任"},{"start":263.976,"end":275.928,"text":"第二個是專業第三個能力全部都是看你服務的品質而這些服務都是沒有型的這些服務都是沒有型的今天我要不要信任某一家銀行"},{"start":277.068,"end":297.136,"text":"或者是某一個金融機構對於所謂高端的客戶也好對於特定的族群也好他所推出來的資產管理服務他們所提供的商品提供服務或是兩者之間的結合其實我看了就是三家事情第一個這個金融機構值不值得信任那第二個他的績效到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":298.635,"end":312.001,"text":"第三個他的專業跟他的能力所以我才會說在地理的區劃上面畫了一個五個行政區到底是什麼意思我有點看不懂今天我在台北市的信義區我在信義區可以看到很多銀行的金融總部"},{"start":312.87,"end":334.885,"text":"我到底要進入F銀行我還是要進入B銀行其實我不會看哪一棟外觀比較漂亮其實我看的是它的reputation跟它實際上面執行的績效時間的關係我們直接來看績效你們在今天的書面報告裡面賴總統在演說的時候似乎也有提到說增加2.83兆我們的母數是多少"},{"start":335.578,"end":348.716,"text":"我們現在在29 30兆去年的時候29 30兆嗎我們去年推出的時候大概是29 30兆左右你知不知道現在新加坡的資產管理的規模多少大概5兆到6兆美元"},{"start":351.028,"end":375.404,"text":"我們的單位是新台幣他們的單位是美元所以如果新加坡換算成所謂的新台幣當作單位這樣你才有比較的基準要不然如果以台灣來講跟新加坡來講看起來數字差不多 幣別差很多所以我們是希望現在是一兆我現在給你看"},{"start":376.878,"end":382.545,"text":"這個是新加坡花五年超越香港資產管理的規模四兆"},{"start":383.7,"end":410.63,"text":"但是單位是美元換算成台幣大概120兆以台灣的狀況來講台灣過去我們的國營佔的規模跟比重比較重那相關的法規也比較緊美國商會 歐洲商會其實歷年的報告我相信主委都有看這個方向的邁進我不反對但什麼實際上面我覺得怎麼按部就班的下去執行"},{"start":413.26,"end":437.514,"text":"比較重要是以新加坡來講的話他整整花了五年超越香港資產管理的規模他們做了很多事情其實人家怎麼成功的我們可以借鏡我們通通都有在演當然我不是說說什麼亞洲資產管理中心長他人之氣滅自己威風台灣怎麼跟人家比等等等等這都不是我要講的話我要我希望說的話是2001年"},{"start":440.578,"end":457.643,"text":"我們的政府第一次打出了這個口號現在是2025年我們一樣在喊這個口號那現實上面過去五年新加坡怎麼建籍履籍的人家怎麼做的超越了香港人家現在的規模是120兆"},{"start":459.295,"end":484.637,"text":"台灣未來五年要怎麼做能夠達到什麼樣子的規模我相信這個才是全體國人期待看到的東西主委你應該懂我的意思吧理解我覺得說對的事情我們就會去做這部分我想今天能夠做多少我們一定全力來做因為台灣未來發展的方向金融業不應該是只有這樣我希望透過這個計畫全面的提升"},{"start":485.917,"end":491.519,"text":"我希望你可以成功啦但具體的成效如何我們會隨著時間的進展一步一步來看今天因為時間的關係我後面其他的國際評比的部分我下一次再來請教主委謝謝黃委員接下來我們請楊瓊英委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":920,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。10月10號賴總統的國慶致詞，在演講中又提到亞洲資產管理中心，這個名詞我上次在質詢的時候有請教過主委，所以聽到了以後，我不曉得該說驚訝還是驚喜，顯然是賴總統一個非常重要的政見。這個名詞其實大家都不陌生，第一次出現有關於政府要打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，大概可以回溯到2001年的時候，阿扁總統其實就有擘劃這樣的願景；到蔡總統的時候，他說要打造臺灣成為亞洲企業資金調度及高階資產管理中心，名稱稍微長一點，大概意思差不多；到賴總統的時候就是亞洲資產管理中心。我上次就請教，劃定目標我覺得沒有錯，有方向是個好事，但從2001年的口號聽到現在，大家可能比較關心的事情是這是繼續淪為口號，還是有什麼具體上面的實踐。我大概去了解了一下你們的亞洲資產管理中心到底在做什麼事情，我看了這張圖，我有點驚訝，你們之前應該有開記者會，找了很多金融業者，亞洲資產管理中心高雄專區大概橫跨鹽埕、前金、新興、苓雅跟前鎮區，這樣一個地理區位的劃設，讓臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，這有什麼實際的意義？我有點看不太懂，請教一下主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，跟委員報告，這只是我們十六項計畫的其中一個叫做地方資產管理專區，我們整個亞洲資產管理中心涵蓋各個行業，這部分主要是希望針對我們的銀行業來設計，結合了證券投資，這只是計畫的其中之一，這不是亞洲資產管理中心的全部。"],["黃委員國昌：對，我同意，這應該不會是亞洲資產管理中心的全部。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我的問題是，你在這邊把五個行政區劃進來成為高雄專區，成為亞洲資產管理專區也好，成為臺灣金融業要進一步向上提升的動力也好……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其中的一個計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：到底有什麼實質的意義，我到目前為止看不懂。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，跟委員簡單說明一下……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦，在你現在劃設的高雄專區裡面，有幾家銀行、幾家保險、幾家投信？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在總共有17家銀行、4家保險、8家投信（顧）。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道在臺北市的信義區有幾家銀行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我倒沒有統計。"],["黃委員國昌：幾家保險、幾家投信？"],["彭主任委員金隆：保險公司母公司的話，其實大部分都在那裡……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，就是在地理上面去劃設一個這樣的區域出來，當然我希望是對於高雄的地方經濟發展有幫忙，但是把它直接跟亞洲資產管理中心其中的一個目標，在高雄設這樣的專區，它具體的實效性在哪裡？我真的必須要老實說，我完全看不懂。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我可以跟委員解釋1分鐘嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，請。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。第一個，我們在做資產管理，在針對高資產客戶的時候，必須要有很多新辦的業務，所以我們在高雄專區很重要的就是有一個大型的試辦計畫在那邊，所以我們必須要先有個區域的部分做試辦，原來高雄市政府提供兩棟大樓給他們選擇，但基於他們實務的考量，我們後來改成劃定跟指定，先以這個區位裡面你來指定，重點是怎麼在一個有限的範圍之內來申請核准以後先做試辦。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，以資產管理中心來講，跟金融業的本質一樣，第一個是信任，第二個是專業，第三個是能力，全部都是看你服務的品質，而這些服務都是沒有形的，今天我要不要信任某一家銀行或者是某一個金融機構，對於所謂高端的客戶也好，對於特定的族群也好，他們所推出來的資產管理服務，他們所提供的商品、提供的服務，或是兩者之間的結合，其實我看的就是這三件事情，第一個，這個金融機構值不值得信任；第二個，它的績效到底是怎麼樣；第三個是它的專業跟能力。所以我才會說在地理的區劃上面劃了五個行政區，這到底是什麼意思？我有點看不懂。今天我在臺北市的信義區可以看到很多銀行的金融總部，我到底要進入F銀行還是要進入B銀行，我不會看哪一棟的外觀比較漂亮，其實我看的是它的reputation跟它實際上的執行績效。","時間的關係，我們直接來看績效，你們在今天的書面報告裡面，賴總統在演說的時候似乎也有提到，說增加2.83兆，你們的母數是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在大概29、30兆，去年的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：29、30兆嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們去年9月推出的時候，大概是29、30兆左右。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，你知不知道現在新加坡資產管理的規模是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：大概5兆到6兆美元。"],["黃委員國昌：我們的單位是新臺幣嘛，他們的單位是美元。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，兆美元。"],["黃委員國昌：所以如果新加坡換算成所謂的新臺幣當作單位，這樣才有比較的基準，要不然如果以臺灣跟新加坡來講，看起來數字差不多，幣別差很多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們是希望……現在是1兆嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：我現在給你看，這是新加坡花5年超越香港資產管理規模是4兆，但是單位是美元，換算成臺幣大概是120兆。以臺灣的狀況來講，臺灣過去國銀占的規模跟比重比較重，相關的法規也比較緊，美國商會、歐洲商會歷年的報告，我相信主委都有看，這個方向的邁進我不反對，但在實際上，我覺得怎麼按部就班地下去執行比較重要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員國昌：以新加坡來講，它整整花了5年超越香港資產管理的規模，他們做了很多事情，人家怎麼成功的，我們可以借鏡。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們通通都有在研究。"],["黃委員國昌：當然我不是要說什麼亞洲資產管理中心怎麼樣，或是長他人志氣、滅自己威風，說臺灣怎麼跟人家比等等，這都不是我要講的話，我希望說的話是，2001年我們的政府第一次打出了這個口號，現在是2025年，一樣還在喊這個口號，現實上，過去5年新加坡怎麼劍及履及的、人家怎麼做的，超越了香港，人家現在的規模是120兆。臺灣未來5年要怎麼做、能夠達到什麼樣子的規模？我相信這個才是全體國人期待看到的東西。主委，你應該懂我的意思吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：理解！我覺得對的事情我們就會去做，這部分今天能夠做多少，我們一定全力來做，因為在臺灣未來發展的方向中，金融業不應該只有這樣，我希望透過這個計畫全面的提升。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望你可以成功，但具體的成效如何？我們會隨著時間的進展一步一步來看。","今天因為時間的關係，後面其他國際評比的部分我下一次再來請教主委，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcfc6ce7e2d98edfe285f90000f7f2f0ab54e55ddf1b168a3142d906fa9f5dffe95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:52:27 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就是說包含這個結婚董事長還有跟行政院這邊來做請示好不好再給本席答覆 謝謝林次然後李副我再請教你一下另外一個部分你也在災區待那麼久你看這一次的這個特別條例當中有一條預備金這丹麥斯颱風特別條例"},{"start":222.291,"end":237.97,"text":"當中有一億呢就用在車輛受損的這個部分登記但是用的範圍只限於花蓮你看喔汽車的部分五萬然後呢機車的部分一萬那相對台南呢中央這一筆預算都沒有用到你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":238.971,"end":263.401,"text":"他是取作的丹奈斯重建特別條例喔預算喔台南只有台南市政府汽車一萬然後另外的機車五千而且台南的部分的這個汽車的部分還錯過了這個貨物稅上路的時間前後來來加起來十萬耶副座你要不要回去好好想一下這個我們回去來研究一下對 一眼不一定花得完啦"},{"start":264.537,"end":280.26,"text":"一樣是涵蓋災區的範圍七月跟九月嘛不應該有這樣的差別的待遇嘛好不好 這可以嗎這個也很重要很關鍵啦好不好 那訊息給本席答覆啦我最後一分鐘問一下那個NCC好不好 陳主委"},{"start":283.425,"end":309.518,"text":"陳主委裡面走我明明跟你講這個NCC三大電信業者的部分號稱在7月20號的時候就恢復95%我在表格上面有165%但是呢它所謂的有其實沒有包括品質慢或品質差只管有不求好啦但事實上在8月的時候本期在災區跑的時候還是常常斷訊也以至於說8月7號的時候會開放漫遊的結果"},{"start":311.459,"end":333.082,"text":"我結果要求說不要從7月20號來定位成補償的一個基準然後8月7號就有三家聯合抵制他們不聽從因為你不是補助單位你是管理單位啊所以你這個部分你應該想辦法你後面還有一個所謂的災害漫遊機制作業要點的時候是不是應該把災害賠償計畫一併納進去呢我知道他們三家都不瞭你啊"},{"start":334.468,"end":353.873,"text":"跟委員報告 這一部分我們在我們大概有前後兩次找他們來開會現在他們從寬從寬從優惠認定現在台南 嘉南地區還有高雄地區大概有超過10萬的那個那個日期優惠的用戶有適用日期不是7月20號到8月7號"},{"start":356.994,"end":382.996,"text":"在他漫遊 他這個部分應該在延後處理 要擴大最重要的部分喔 本席提醒你啦要強化韌性的目的啦在於他資本要不要支出啦 要不要投入啦最重要你要要求他加入這個共同廣告的建構當中才有可能啦 否則一直附著在台電啦 風險一樣很高啦我沒有要求他在跟相關單位配合在特別是在都會區一定要盡可能地下化"},{"start":383.737,"end":390.97,"text":"特別是不是都會區啦 可能會造成孤島巷你都要面對啦好不好 陳主委好沒問題 謝謝謝謝 謝謝郭國文委員質詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1229,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時52分）謝謝主席，有請內政部董次，還有公共工程委員會李副。"],["主席：我們請次長，還有副主委。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：董次，我不知道你們有沒有觀察到這兩次的風災整個中央的步伐有些不一樣，相對而言，花蓮的部分步驟就比較快，為什麼有這樣的個案差異？就因為沒有一個通案的機制所造成，因為個案的差異之所以會造成，就是因為災防法的內容當中定位在協調各縣市，也就是中央是用協調而不是指揮，了解這意思嗎？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以到臺南的時候變指揮所，到地方、到花蓮的時候就變協調所，協調所就依照災防法，簡單的講，災防法還有許許多多該修的地方，應該把它位階有所提升，功能要強化，然後通案要有個機制，而不是每次都是臨時組合，所以我個人是認為應該要修災防法，不曉得次長的看法怎麼樣？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員的提醒，我們目前也在討論相關災防法的修正，以及經過這幾次混合型天災、複合型天災的狀態，當然我們還是要強調災防法跟地制法裡面都有明確規定，事實上地方政府本來就是在第一線，必須要去做相關要做的事情。"],["郭委員國文：我當然知道地方政府撇開不了責任，但是地方政府要擺爛或量能不足的時候，中央就是一個很關鍵的角色嘛！次長，麻煩回去好好思考一下，將來我們再就災防法來做對話。","我請李副。"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝。"],["李副主任委員怡德：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：李副，是這樣子，前後有差別的地方就差別在哪裡？相對的剝奪感就出現了，你去看同樣是死亡，到了花蓮就變100萬，在臺南就80萬，也不過是短短不到兩個月之間的差別而已。同樣是要運用善款，為什麼花蓮就要給他100萬，然後臺南就80萬？多增加20萬就是善款啊！我想衛福部在這邊嘛！對不對？善款的部分我有去查過，目前整個衛福部的專戶當中還剩下一億多，那臺南罹難的也不過9個人，有差這20萬嗎？20萬乘以9，不到200萬耶！李副，我之所以請教你，是因為你長期在臺南待嘛！你很清楚嘛！你認為這樣合理嗎？"],["李副主任委員怡德：跟委員報告一下，主要是因為慰問金的部分還是來自於賑災基金會的來源。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，對啊。"],["李副主任委員怡德：賑災基金會因為那時候像兩個災害也給人家感覺就是基金會對外的募款帳戶……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，都有善款。"],["李副主任委員怡德：所以我們也會尊重賑災基金會這邊的財源規劃。"],["郭委員國文：那個就請林次回去研究一下嘛！好不好？就善款可以彈性處理的部分。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，賑災基金會這邊……當然這些給付的標準還有這一次的給法都是行政院的公告，不過，也像剛剛委員所說到的，我們在丹娜絲颱風的專款裡面，當時是五億三千多萬，現在是核發掉四億一千多萬。"],["郭委員國文：對，剩下一億二。"],["林次長靜儀：那這一億多，我們再跟包含基金會董事長……"],["郭委員國文：慎重考慮一下……"],["林次長靜儀：還有跟行政院來做請示，好不好？"],["郭委員國文：好，再給本席答復，謝謝林次。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["郭委員國文：李副，我再請教你一下，另外一個部分，你也在災區待那麼久，你看這一次的特別條例當中有一條預備金，就是丹娜絲颱風特別條例，當中有1億就是用在車輛受損報廢登記，但是用的範圍只限於花蓮，汽車的部分5萬，機車的部分1萬，相對臺南呢？中央這筆預算都沒有用到，你覺得合理嗎？它是取作丹娜絲重建特別條例，預算喔！臺南只有臺南市政府汽車1萬，機車5,000，而且臺南的部分，汽車還錯過了貨物稅上路的時間，前前後後加起來10萬，副座，你要不要回去好好想一下？"],["李副主任委員怡德：這我們回去來研究一下。"],["郭委員國文：對，1億也不一定花得完，一樣是涵蓋災區的範圍，7月跟9月不應該有這樣的差別待遇嘛！好不好？"],["李副主任委員怡德：這我們來研議一下。"],["郭委員國文：這可以嗎？"],["李副主任委員怡德：是，我們來研究。"],["郭委員國文：這個也很重要、很關鍵，好不好？迅速給本席答復。"],["李副主任委員怡德：是。"],["郭委員國文：我最後1分鐘問一下NCC陳主委，陳主委一面走，我一面跟你講，NCC三大電信業者號稱在7月20號的時候就恢復95%，我在表格上面有寫1%、6%、5%，但是他所謂的「有」，其實沒有包含品質慢或品質差，只管有，不求好啦！但事實上8月本席在災區跑的時候還是常常斷訊，以致於8月7號的時候開放漫遊，我要求不要從7月20號來定位成補償基準，然後到8月7號，結果三家聯合抵制，他們不聽從，因為你不是補助單位，你是管理單位啊！所以這個部分你應該想辦法，你後面還有一個所謂的災害漫遊機制作業要點，是不是應該把災害賠償計畫一併納進去呢？否則他們三家都不鳥你啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，這一部分我們大概有前後兩次找他們來開會，現在他們從寬、從優認定，現在嘉南地區還有高雄地區大概有超過10萬的優惠用戶有適用……"],["郭委員國文：對，日期？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：然後大概有一千多萬。"],["郭委員國文：日期不是7月20號到8月7號，災害漫遊這個部分應該再延後處理，要擴大，最重要的部分，本席提醒你，強化韌性的目的在於他資本要不要支出、要不要投入，最重要你要要求他加入共同管溝的建構當中才有可能，否則一直附著在台電，風險一樣很高，對不對？你有沒有認同？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，我們有要求他與相關單位配合，特別是在都會區一定要盡可能都地下化。"],["郭委員國文：不是都會區啦！可能會造成孤島效應，你都要面對，好不好？陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員質詢，謝謝所有單位。","我們今天中午不休息，延長開會時間到上午詢答的委員結束之後我們再行請休息。","現在請林德福委員質詢，林德福委員、林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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楊泉發言請時部長好 有請時部長歡迎 水先喝再上來好 楊委員好部長好中秋前後是肉品銷售最重要的尤其烤肉大家香腸這些腸子通通都要那在這樣的情況之下我們的食安五環似乎都慢半拍而且都是民眾檢舉揭露的"},{"start":33.294,"end":48.965,"text":"那當然我們在查緝的時候已經流入到市場而且不知道該怎麼辦就從這一次的這個黑心腸現在去檢驗都合格那些不合格的跑到哪裡去呢這才是重點已經吃下肚"},{"start":49.625,"end":76.234,"text":"民众的食安严重受损这该怎么办所以本席要请教我们要怎么样检讨经济方案如果你只有是让民众来检举你们才知道为什么不从源头去好好的管控制你们的积极作为到底是什么尤其人力方面你明知道你的人力是有缺口的那你要怎么去"},{"start":77.034,"end":98.166,"text":"去把它這個應對之譬如說你用AI的方式譬如說你可以用液化的一個物流流程這些查核流程液化這個對我們來講都是幫助很大而且解決你人力的缺口我們做了嗎請教部長這一方面你的作為是什麼"},{"start":98.866,"end":123.407,"text":"跟委員報告確實委員提到透過E化可以去強化整個食物鏈這個產品食品的這個產製銷鏈的這個追蹤作用那現在從電子發票電子登錄我們都持續在推動目前大概完成率大概九成到九成五那最後一哩度我們把它補起來讓像這樣的這個工業的化學"},{"start":126.83,"end":155.712,"text":"就是我们在这个卫生局这边会持续针对还没有完成电子发票的开立跟这个电子登录的食品业者加强去辅导让他完成从源头对这个从源头从源头你认可吗那同时依化AI技术去补足人力的缺口还有最重要的不要等到民众来接入你们才知道那些已经流到肚子里头"},{"start":156.613,"end":156.715,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":157.608,"end":186.325,"text":"要怎麼辦所以這個務必要把最後一里路去補足我們努力把這個整個系統讓它完整當然難免都還是有這些漏網之魚那我們還是會加強這個市場後市場的這些機場還是需要加強機場好 一起加油那請教最近我們看到原廠藥品宣布退出台灣市場"},{"start":187.918,"end":211.93,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下甚至這個市佔率高的三高的藥品這是民眾非常需要的那比如說化痰藥 氣喘藥這些三高的這個藥品慢性病那為什麼到九月份竟然我們統計預期是有47家的藥品退出"},{"start":214.13,"end":235.557,"text":"這是什麼情況 為什麼會如此 什麼原因那我們要怎麼樣去應對呢跟委員報告 現在健保所供應的這個藥品大概是一萬四千多項那每年大概都有五六十項會因為他的這個廠商來提報我們都是鼓勵他提報說如果你不再供應 你要事先講"},{"start":236.837,"end":258.025,"text":"那让我们可以以往没有像现在这么多家差不多前年的话是60几项60几项那你现在就已经有47项了47项没有错但是这47项我们盘起来都有学名药它不是专利期内的药全部都是有学名药你有替代你的意思是说你有替代对"},{"start":258.445,"end":275.522,"text":"第一個到底是什麼原因人家要退出跟委員報告就是說這些像這裡面有24個是屬於叫做原廠藥原廠藥過了專利期之後就有很多的學民要跟它競爭所以它的價格一定下降全世界都是這樣這個時候這個廠商這個原廠就會考慮"},{"start":279.085,"end":303.192,"text":"改變他的這個策略就再回去專注他的專利藥這是藥商的一個策略但是我方我們的替代藥是不是足以讓我們的三高等這些需要用者的患者能夠安心這是一個重點接下來本席請教最近有提出了一個叫健康幣"},{"start":304.973,"end":320.107,"text":"就是打疫苗啊接受公費啊這個癌症篩選啊那我們到底我們說如果打疫苗你可以獲得100點的健康幣那乳房篩檢可以獲得200點那這個政策現在進度如何"},{"start":320.467,"end":341.581,"text":"我們現在正在內部在規劃那最重要就是有三個重點一個這個是幣的發行他可能要採納這個區塊鏈的概念那第二個是哪些要納入鼓勵的措施就是希望讓民眾他去為了自己的健康所做的努力也能夠有一些"},{"start":342.321,"end":369.998,"text":"回饋來鼓勵他第三個就是要公司協力要希望有更多的業者民間的業者可以參與這個幣的退換所以大概有這三個環節你們接下來進度預計什麼時候可以去執行之那因為你包括要跟廠商民間的合作那你預計什麼時候可以上路呢希望明年的第一季來跟大家報告這個整個明年的第一季來報告因為這個非常的重要"},{"start":370.658,"end":389.44,"text":"也就是预防中医治疗如果大家有这样子的一个概念我们完整建构让大家可以更加的健康但明年的第一季可以跟国人来报告健康必的进度 是不是是是是 谢谢委员好 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跟您分享美國納茲達克在今年的9月初有向監管機構去提出申請不只要做債券的代幣化也要做股票的代幣化"},{"start":154.685,"end":174.344,"text":"所以我想請教一下有沒有機會去討論一下這一塊的可能性因為我們剛剛 您剛剛有提到專法嘛那我們的VISE的專法的第三條呢則是把有價證券的部分排除那有價證券有沒有可能用RWA的方式來做那這個部分可不可以請主委做個回應"},{"start":175.134,"end":196.1,"text":"其實我們在那個虛擬資產專訪裡面也有大概所謂的那個實驗條例的適用我想這部分我們也保留了這樣的一個這個窗口那確實虛擬資產到底是不是有價證券要看因為我們當時很多討論就是你原來是什麼接下來就是什麼原來不是什麼不會因為這樣變成什麼我想大概是一個我們有諮詢學者專家來看"},{"start":199.361,"end":224.541,"text":"那確實未來比如說這個RWA以後呢我們也看到國際上非常非常多嘗試比如像基金像Blade Rock基金就做很成功他結合他穩定幣這個parking的時候他可以做到因為他不能收利息所以RWA大家都在全球都在思考他的應用面但我們也是會仔細看看各個世界怎麼運用他我們來決定我們接下來怎麼走"},{"start":224.929,"end":245.388,"text":"好謝謝主委我想股票代幣化或證券的代幣化有很多的優點包括可能交易的時間可以放長還有降低投資門檻結算效率增加等等那我們也希望真的要向全世界去看齊不要我們到最後台灣反而變成是末班車我們現在應該要去思考如何後發先至"},{"start":246.449,"end":273.734,"text":"至於您剛剛有提到的現在實體世界怎麼樣虛擬世界又怎麼樣我想最重要的重點應該還在於機會我想風險跟機會的均衡還是希望主委一起做個考慮剛剛您也提到穩定幣我想穩定幣其實是現在大家非常非常關注的不過您有提到貨幣型的穩定幣為主優先開放受到高度監理的金融機構來試行"},{"start":275.234,"end":293.397,"text":"那我想請教一下其實現在看起來像美國的Genius法案我想你一定也有研究那美國是受聯邦或州政府認可即可那我想請教當VASP的專法通過了以後既然這些VASP的業者都已經獲得金管會的許可"},{"start":293.897,"end":313.218,"text":"那未來主委有沒有考慮評估一下讓未來這些合規的VASP業者也能夠有機會有穩定幣的發行權雖然不能同步但有沒有一個時程或可以考量的空間所以我想委員應該也有非常清楚我們的那個專法草案裡面的條文並沒有限定"},{"start":313.979,"end":335.314,"text":"只有金融機構我們也是參考GENIUS或跟MECA的規定但是我們想說因為台灣我們是採用謹慎友好不冒進但不落後的這樣的一個態度所以我們大概剛開始我在很多地方也有發表個人的看法我們會先從比較高度監管的金融業但我們並沒有排除因為法規本來就沒有做這個限制"},{"start":335.916,"end":356.639,"text":"太好了我想如果能夠有更多類別的RWA做代幣化同時呢又有新台幣的穩定幣我想對於整個未來的金融的交易會有非常大新的彈性的空間甚至不管是我們的量體提升也好甚至是我們現在的月配息有沒有變成日配息甚至秒配息"},{"start":357.099,"end":377.445,"text":"透過Sablecoin這個可程式化的機制都是有很大的考量空間那我想最後幾個問題主委可不可以透露一下因為我們看到6月27號金管會將VASP的草案抱怨以後現在已經過了三個月有沒有機會討論一下目前行政院討論的狀況為什麼這麼久還沒有辦法送到立法院有沒有什麼考量的一個邏輯在裡面"},{"start":379.065,"end":397.781,"text":"我想簡單跟委員報告不過這應該據我所知就是例行性的議程因為通常我們討論以後各部會就會提出他的建議交給我們回去做研議跟調整我們再重新送回去那中間還有一個變數我剛才也跟委員報告過就是因為我們現在原來主審的政委因為更換所以我們重新跟他做簡報我想這個東西應該會按照時程來進行"},{"start":400.287,"end":418.404,"text":"好我們也相信這個樂觀以對最後雖然主席已經站起來不好意思我稍微交流一下這個跟資安有關的議題那因為關鍵基礎設施如果有資安風險在這個ATM或相關的設備上是由經管會這裡負責的那我們目前有看到有一些相關的專業的評估報告"},{"start":419.665,"end":434.862,"text":"有提到發現了非常多新的漏洞這些漏洞是有可能影響到我們ATM的網路甚至有可能在緊急或極端狀況的時候這些ATM如果被遠端的封鎖或者被駭入的話很可能會影響到民眾的金融安全"},{"start":435.562,"end":453.31,"text":"這個部分希望主委能不能跟團隊評估一下未來有機會再針對我們資安金融的部分來做個比較更完整的一個檢查跟檢討可以嗎所以我會請支付處來做進一步的研究好 謝謝主委謝謝葛委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":899,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時44分）好，謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：彭主委好。這一次非常感謝業務報告裡面有一個非常明確的加速金融科技創新與發展的項目，我們也一直都非常關注金管會長期在推動現實世界資產RWA代幣化相關的一些細節，我們也看到裡面說有10家金融機構和相關機構有參與，以國內外的債券代幣化為標的進行所謂的Proof of Concept（PoC）的測試，9月25號有完成期末實證的報告，相信內部可能有一些機密，我們也不好索取，但是想請教一下主委，這個報告的結果怎麼樣？有沒有符合原先的預期？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，跟委員報告，這個裡面的兩次：一個期中報告、一個期末報告，我都全程參與去聽他們怎麼做，期中報告是先提出了大概未來怎麼運作，期末報告大概就是模擬試行，在技術上應該都沒有問題，接下來我們就是要討論它落地的商模跟現行制度的比較，還有我們未來由誰來參與這件事情。還有，我們有兩個：一個是基金，還有一個債券的部分，看哪個比較有可能。剛好在那個過程，WEF也出了報告，他們預估未來全球很多對這部分的看法，可能債券是現階段比較有可能來做的。但現在因為剛做完報告，我們接下來會看看剛剛講的後續要怎麼做，特別是未來也會搭配現在我們的虛擬資產專法要怎麼結合，因為這兩個是互為……比如未來的穩定幣也會跟RWA有密切的關係。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，相輔相成，謝謝主委。我想您剛剛有提到是以債券為主，不過我要……"],["彭主任委員金隆：那是那個報告提到的。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，我要跟您分享，其實從金管會的角度，既然要做亞洲資產中心，同時又要向創新靠齊，也跟您報告、跟您分享美國那斯達克在今年9月初有向監管機構提出申請，不只要做債券的代幣化，也要做股票的代幣化。所以我想請教一下，有沒有機會去討論一下這一塊的可能性？因為您剛剛有提到專法，我們的VASP專法的第三條則是把有價證券的部分排除，有價證券有沒有可能用RWA的方式來做？這個部分可不可以請主委做個回應？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們在虛擬資產專法裡面也有所謂實驗條例的適用，這部分我們也保留了這樣一個窗口。確實虛擬資產到底是不是有價證券？因為我們當時有很多討論就是你原來是什麼，接下來就是什麼；原來不是什麼，不會因為這樣而變成什麼，我想大概是一個……我們有諮詢學者專家來看。確實未來比如RWA以後，我們也看到國際上非常非常多嘗試，比如像BlackRock的基金就做很成功，它結合穩定幣，Parking的時候它可以做到，因為它不能收利息，所以有關RWA，全球都在思考它的應用面，但我們也是會仔細看看各個國家怎麼運用它，來決定我們接下來的部分會怎麼走。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝主委，股票代幣化或證券的代幣化有很多的優點，包含可能交易的時間可以放長，還有降低投資門檻、結算效率增加等等，我們也希望真的要向全世界看齊，不要到最後臺灣反而變成是末班車，我們現在應該要去思考如何後發先至。至於您剛剛有提到的，現在實體世界怎麼樣、虛擬世界又怎麼樣，最重要的重點應該在於機會，風險跟機會的均衡還是希望主委一起做個考慮。","剛剛您也提到這個穩定幣，穩定幣其實是現在大家非常非常關注的，不過您有提到貨幣型的穩定幣為主，優先開放受到高度監理的金融機構來試行，我想請教一下，其實現在看起來像美國的GENIUS法案，你一定也有研究，美國是受聯邦或州政府認可即可。我想請教，當VASP專法通過了以後，既然這些VASP業者都已經獲得金管會的許可，主委有沒有考慮評估一下，讓未來這些合規的VASP業者也能夠有機會有穩定幣的發行權？雖然不能同步，但有沒有一個時程或可以考量的空間？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，所以委員應該也非常清楚我們的專法草案裡面的條文並沒有限定只有金融機構，我們也是參考GENIUS或跟MiCA的規定，但是我們認為因為臺灣是採用謹慎友好、不冒進但不落後這樣的態度，所以剛開始我在很多地方也有發表個人的看法，我們會先從比較高度監管的金融業，但我們並沒有排除，因為法規本來就沒有做這個限制。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，我想如果能夠有更多類別的RWA做代幣化，同時又有新臺幣的穩定幣，我想對於未來的整個金融交易會有非常大的新彈性空間，不管是我們的量體提升也好，甚至是現在的月配息有沒有可能變成日配息甚至秒配息，透過Stablecoin可程式化的機制，都有很大的考量空間。","最後幾個問題，主委可不可以透露一下，我們看到6月27號金管會將VASP的草案報院以後，現在已經過了3個月，有沒有機會討論一下目前行政院討論的狀況，為什麼這麼久了還沒有辦法送到立法院，有沒有什麼考量的邏輯在裡面？"],["彭主任委員金隆：簡單跟委員報告，據我所知，這應該就是例行性的議程，因為通常我們討論以後，各部會就會提出建議，交給我們回去做研議跟調整，我們再重新送回去，中間還有一個變數，我剛才也跟委員報告過，就是因為原來主審的政委更換，所以我們重新跟他做簡報，我想這部分應該會按照時程來進行。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我們也樂觀以對。最後，雖然主席已經站起來了，不好意思，我稍微交流一下跟資安有關的議題，因為關鍵基礎設施如果有資安風險，在ATM或相關的設備上是由金管會這裡負責的，我們目前有看到一些相關的專業評估報告有提到發現了非常多新的漏洞，這些漏洞是有可能影響到我們的ATM網路，甚至在緊急或極端狀況的時候，這些ATM如果被遠端封鎖或被駭入，很可能會影響到民眾的金融安全，這個部分主委能不能跟團隊評估一下，未來有機會再針對金融資安的部分，做更完整的檢查跟檢討，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我會請資服處來做進一步的研究。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛委員。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164033","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164033","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc902796c6753798a0eadaba8731997982a407684b3aac8590bc1a2502fc54816a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:41:38 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站長委員 先進 列席人 江蘇黨官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們石部長跟徐主任請石部長 徐主任座議員好部長好 主任好剛剛聽說之前的質詢 部長有爆料說你也喜歡吃糯米茶"},{"start":27.011,"end":50.17,"text":"不是 大燈啊 大燈米線不是那個灌腸的不是不是那你現在還敢吃嗎有有 我昨天才吃你知道我們屏東很多地方呢都在賣那個糯米腸啊他以前賣說大腸包小腸結果呢最近因為大家沒有人去買他就掛個牌子人生無腸啊 久路愁腸啊大家沒來買啊為什麼 部長"},{"start":54.591,"end":77.039,"text":"因為網傳黑心豬腸流向全台黑心的不是豬的腸黑心的是什麼是人的心是哪裡問題是不是用工業用的那個什麼用工業用的雙氧水對不對但是我們看了一下看了一下這裡面的居然跑出什麼病死豬病變豬大腸病變豬大腸病死豬病變的豬大腸請問"},{"start":81.184,"end":107.857,"text":"豬有問題嗎豬沒有問題豬跟豬跟豬什麼關係啊是人的問題嘛那些豬都是農民辛苦飼養避死豬或病死豬早就農委會農業部要求怎樣要做對要做去化嘛對不對給他一個銷毀嘛對所以說理論上沒有那種私底下的東西去做完了嘛沒有嘛沒有沒有這個問題嘛那為什麼媒體會這樣寫"},{"start":110.244,"end":131.135,"text":"這樣寫誰敢吃豬肉製品啊還好你知道你說那個蚵仔麵線大腸麵線你都敢吃對不對好來我們往下看所以問題是食藥署的說明在10月4號涉嫌使用工業級的雙陽水加工內臟非來自病死豬為可食用的內臟請問媒體有寫嗎媒體有這樣講嗎保定有什麼"},{"start":136.536,"end":164.651,"text":"我們會強化不斷的說明不斷的說明這個我們覺得非常的委屈我們看過去有沒有例子 來往下看食安事件烏龍之訊不管是無心或有意受害的都是農民過去發生什麼事情我舉例給你看巴西綠色彈有沒有這回事那個徐主任之前你因應過嘛那時候還沒當部長那個是我們還不是當時部長有沒有遇到過是不是真的"},{"start":165.563,"end":192.799,"text":"那個是假新聞假訊息嘛 對不對還有呢 以前說中秋節發生文旦到水庫在2019年 有沒有結果呢 誰受傷農民農民啊 大家說 喔 文旦這麼燒 燒到可以倒水庫你怎麼賣我這麼貴對不對 有問題也是遭到農民說很多過剩 價格崩盤也是農民還有什麼綠牡蠣 有這個事情沒有那為什麼這種事情 層出不窮"},{"start":193.991,"end":206.377,"text":"我們尊重媒體的新聞報導的專業但是這不是專業的報導啊怎麼辦 往下看怎麼辦我們是只有譴責造成恐慌的烏龍新聞只有這樣而已嗎 只能這樣子嗎"},{"start":207.731,"end":230.925,"text":"有沒有別的做法 來啦 給你報一項氣象法有個18條 我不知道這樣定 你看氣象法說機關學校團體或個人未經中央氣象局 現在叫氣象署他不得去發布什麼 警報 災害 豪雨 颱風 甚至地震發布的時候要註明什麼 發布者的名稱權嫌他的預報呢 應該註明是來自於中央氣象局的"},{"start":232.25,"end":252.436,"text":"部長有沒有參考價值有可以考慮嗎來聽聽看那你覺得我這樣提的時候你可能擋不住我覺得委員這個建議很好那麼因為這個食安是全民都關切啦所以往往如果這個訊息如果不對的話反而造成恐慌社會的不安定同時也傷害農民"},{"start":252.856,"end":268.613,"text":"是的 所以是不是衛福部可以承諾我們來制定一個食安相關的新聞發布的指引或者是規範 或者是流程那行政院來協助可以嗎這個我們過去跟委員報告過去我們在自殺防治就做過這樣很好 那成效如何"},{"start":269.373,"end":294.161,"text":"后来新闻媒体现在报导有自杀事件的时候都会遵守那个指引的规范不会去过度渲染报导细节等等这些那我们也来研议那么对于这个按照这个食安法46条之一来设定这个来制定这个发布这个指引规范那我最后您再多一个"},{"start":294.841,"end":320.676,"text":"建立食安相關新聞的查證機制跟平台什麼意思 你要讓媒體方便嘛 媒體搶時間啊你要讓他很快的跟你們確認說這裡面說的會不會很真媒體他可以去問到正確的 這第一個第二個 閱聽大眾如果看到這個怪怪的他馬上怎樣 不是檢舉啦 是給你們提供嘛這個市面上也要流通這樣的新聞喔是不是真的 好像給你們查證一下這個機制跟平台"},{"start":321.736,"end":339.685,"text":"衛福部來演繹好不好查證中心啦好不好公新聞媒體的業者跟一般的消費大眾好不好好那希望你能繼續吃大腸包小腸不要跟我們那個人生無常苦酒入愁腸謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝總嘉賓委員的發言謝謝部長回應"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時41分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請石部長跟許主任。"],["主席：好，請石部長跟許主任。"],["石部長崇良：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、主任好。聽剛剛的質詢，部長說你也喜歡吃糯米腸？"],["石部長崇良：不是，是大腸麵線！"],["鍾委員佳濱：大腸麵線？不是香腸的那種？"],["石部長崇良：不是、不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你現在還敢吃嗎？還有繼續吃？"],["石部長崇良：有，我昨天才吃。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們屏東很多地方都在賣糯米腸，他以前賣的時候都說是大腸包小腸。結果最近因為沒有人去買，他就掛個牌子「人生無腸」、「酒入愁腸」，大家沒來跟他買，部長，為什麼？因為網傳黑心豬腸流向全臺，黑心的不是豬的腸，黑心的是什麼？是人的心嘛！是哪裡有問題？是因為使用了工業用的雙氧水，對不對？但是我們看了一下，這裡面居然跑出什麼？病死豬、病變豬大腸、病死豬大腸、已病變的豬大腸，請問豬有問題嗎？"],["石部長崇良：豬沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：跟豬有什麼關係啊？是人的問題嘛！那些豬都是農民辛苦飼養，斃死豬或病死豬農業部早就要求要做去化，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：把它銷毀嘛，所以說理論上沒有用死豬的東西去做原料嘛，沒有嘛？沒有這問題嘛！"],["石部長崇良：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼媒體會這樣寫？這樣寫誰敢吃豬肉製品啊！還好你知道，你說你都還敢吃蚵仔麵線、大腸麵線，對不對？所以食藥署在10月4號的說明指出涉嫌使用工業級的雙氧水加工，內臟非來自病死豬，為可食用的內臟，請問媒體有寫嗎？媒體有這樣講嗎？部長要怎麼辦？"],["石部長崇良：我們會強化、不斷的說明啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不斷的說明嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們覺得非常委屈！我們看過去的例子，食安事件的烏龍資訊，不管是無心或有意，受害的都是農民。過去發生什麼事情？我舉例給你看，有沒有巴西綠色蛋這回事？許主任，你之前因應過嘛！那時候石部長還沒當部長，有沒有遇到過？"],["許主任輔：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是真的？"],["許主任輔：那個是假新聞。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那個是假的嘛？"],["許主任輔：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：假訊息，對不對？還有，以前在2019年說中秋節發生文旦倒水庫事件，有沒有？"],["許主任輔：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果誰受傷？"],["許主任輔：農民。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農民啊！大家說文旦這麼便宜，便宜到可以倒水庫，那怎麼賣我這麼貴，對不對？有問題，遭殃的也是農民；說數量很多過剩，價格崩盤，遭殃的也是農民！還有綠牡蠣，有沒有這件事情？"],["許主任輔：有，這也是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼這種事情層出不窮？我們尊重媒體新聞報導的專業，但這不是專業的報導，要怎麼辦？部長，要怎麼辦？我們是只有譴責造成恐慌的烏龍新聞，就這樣而已嗎？只能這樣子嗎？有沒有別的做法？來，跟你報一項，氣象法第十八條。氣象法說機關、學校、團體或個人經中央氣象局許可……現在要叫氣象署，得發布氣象或海象之預報，但不得去發布警報或災害性天氣中之豪雨及颱風之預報，甚至是地震，發布的時候要註明發布者的名稱全銜，他的預報應該註明是來自於中央氣象局，部長，有沒有參考價值？"],["石部長崇良：有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以考慮嗎？來，聽聽看，我這樣提出來後，你覺得可以怎麼做？"],["石部長崇良：我覺得委員這個建議很好，因為全民都很關切食安，所以如果訊息不對的話，反而會造成恐慌，使社會不安定，同時也傷害農民。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以衛福部是不是可以承諾制定食安相關的新聞發布指引或者是規範、流程，讓行政院來協助，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，過去我們在自殺防治就做過這樣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！那成效如何？"],["石部長崇良：後來新聞媒體報導自殺事件的時候，都會遵守指引的規範，不會去過度渲染、報導細節等等這些。我們也來研議，按照食安法第四十六條之一來制定發布這個指引、規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我最後再多問你一個，建立食安相關新聞的查證機制跟平臺，什麼意思？你要讓媒體方便嘛，因為媒體要搶時間啊！你要讓他可以很快地跟你們確認內容是不是真的，媒體可以去問到正確的，這是第一個。第二個，閱聽大眾如果看到這個怪怪的，他馬上怎樣？不是檢舉啦！是提供給你們知道市面上有流通這樣的新聞，那是不是真的？給你們查證一下，這個機制跟平臺請衛福部來研議，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：類似像這樣的查證中心啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好不好？可以吧？提供給新聞媒體業者跟一般的消費大眾，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那希望你能繼續吃大腸包小腸，不要「人生無腸」、「苦酒入愁腸」，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的發言，謝謝部長的回應。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcc00f12eb903aa36deadaba8731997982a407684b3aac8590e268ef1662321ad75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:33:00 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有請部長盧委員好部長好前面的委員都講很多了不過我還是想就針對這個工業用酸氧水這個問題來問幾個問題這次我們在地方我們的衛生局的角色是在哪裡"},{"start":28.188,"end":47.785,"text":"卫生局我们当然这个现场的稽查还是会由这个卫生局所以还是稽查对对对那像什么比较重大的实案事件我相信它都会有些危险性在对那其实我们在地方服务的时候稽查员他其实常常抱怨就是他们工作时间太长"},{"start":48.385,"end":73.961,"text":"然後如果比較像這種比較重大他們希望旁邊會有人幫忙比如說可能會有人身安全的問題在這個時候有達到這些他們的基本訴求嗎大概有兩個考慮像這個案件如果涉及到刑事處刑法的部分的話我們就會也通報檢調來共同處理那如果是一般的稽查如果認為有一些這個風險性"},{"start":75.422,"end":97.116,"text":"我是希望部長能夠重視他們的安全還有他們過勞的問題我們從去年看到這個死亡數大概有10個人我想知道說就針對我們去年我們原住民小米這種事件家屬有些人會跟我反映說有沒有國家賠償機制因為他們的家人莫名其妙的就不見了"},{"start":97.952,"end":118.039,"text":"有沒有國家 台東那一個那個那個是他是這邊稍微提一下因為後來確定裡面小米種是是農藥所以農藥這部分其實在查查到底什麼原因原因是怎麼樣子摻進去其實目前是在那我說這部分沒有國家賠償機制嗎"},{"start":120.683,"end":135.938,"text":"我想這部分跟要確定要符合這個這個國賠啊那國家賠償的話是要這個過程當中有公務人員他的這個執行上的問題造成家屬說沒有這方面的一個"},{"start":137.56,"end":154.399,"text":"好 那這個工業用酸氧水我覺得剛才完整協議委員有提到說異常採購的問題大家都會知道說為什麼會沒有人會想到說會用那個工業用的酸氧水這個異常採購的部分你們有到現在為止有一個改善的措施嗎"},{"start":156.668,"end":175.615,"text":"就是如何避免讓這個工業用的雙氧水流入到我們的食品鏈當中所以我剛剛有特別提到對 就是說要去把這個雙因為過去我們沒有把它列入在我們跟這個化學雲的溝基的一個項目裡面我們會把它"},{"start":177.275,"end":205.085,"text":"那我剛剛看了就是你們的報告就是大概針對114年的我們的經費關於食品安全的話我看到了109億關於衛福部是29億要特別預算的話這邊有10億那我的意思是說這麼多的錢用在食品安全這邊那我們的問題還是一直在層出不窮你覺得這個錢是有用對地方嗎還是你覺得有沒有地方要改進我們當然這個一方面"},{"start":207.406,"end":218.715,"text":"補充能力還是需要啦因為剛剛很多委員都提到這個現場的集合呢也需要耗費人力所以這個人力的補充還是有他的必要性目前人力大概規劃到599位嗎"},{"start":221.357,"end":236.465,"text":"因為你現在是167加463然後再規劃24再加45算是599嗎因為他分成中央跟地方那以地方來講是增進對就是現行是463另外再補充45是508"},{"start":240.288,"end":262.47,"text":"我要凸显的问题就是说其实美国的那个我刚刚有去查就是美国的关于食品的机场大概有六千五百人他们的人口是三亿十千也就是说刚好是差不多我们的十倍那我们的人力也差不多是那个样子其实我发现这个这次的问题其实不太是人力的问题而是我们刚刚早上那个林士芬讲的那个行政究责跟制度改善的问题"},{"start":262.95,"end":292.31,"text":"那才可以去真正的把這些想要有點從中獲利啊或者是不法的這些不具良心的這些業者呢來揪出來所以應該是從這個方向來前進可以嗎部長可以可以我們會去強化我們內部的通報還有這個行政的稽查的這個執行這樣那我還是再次強調我們稽查員的人身安危下一個就是我上個禮拜上個月有去我們就是"},{"start":294.116,"end":317.252,"text":"徐超兵醫師的喪禮我有去看他其實他就南回醫院這個部分你目前的想法是什麼目前在南回我們已經有跟台中縣政府合作已經把本來的南回衛生所把它變成南回衛生所暨緊急"},{"start":319.073,"end":341.763,"text":"醫療中心把它擴大上像有略具這個醫院規模不是小小有了因為我常常經過那我要主要說現在他們有凸顯一個問題給我就說他們其實在輪指的時候來值班的其實都不具專科急診專科醫師所以希望說真正去指那個南回急診醫療照護中心這個位置的醫生希望是急診專科醫師"},{"start":342.944,"end":361.312,"text":"我們要不惜重金因為那邊是唯一可以治療的地方它距離台東市跟訪寮都有一個小時以上的車程可以嗎它目前主要是由包含台東馬街還有高一還有幾個"},{"start":366.575,"end":392.734,"text":"來協助那個人力的資源24小時的急診他們是希望都是急診專科醫師的話我們再來了解一下目前是有24小時我上個月有去納瑪夏就是針對我們納瑪夏衛生所他本來在山上就是距離他們現在部落生活的地方非常遠所以我們有在做前置作業那高雄市衛生局也陪同我們去做初步的一個概算是2000萬元"},{"start":393.935,"end":421.187,"text":"不过它有一个前提是说希望它河边的整治能够做好我在9月底大概9月25号也去配合我们水保署的一个1900万的一个防治八起工程的计划也准备核定了已经核定了准备来测试所以我希望说他们水保署这边已经有努力这个1900万我希望卫福部能够宽列这个2000万在明年或者是近几年把他们搬迁卫生所这个心愿能够完成可以吗"},{"start":422.179,"end":449.586,"text":"好 我们来努力来协助好 最后一个就是无人机的问题这次在我们太巴朗这边有三分钟就把药品送到灾区的经验让人家觉得说为之惊艳就是说这么好可是我们在盘点的时候会发现我们原住民地区其实就是5G没有升级然后地方的通讯都不好其实光有无人机也不行一定要把这些通讯设备弄好"},{"start":450.106,"end":466.122,"text":"那我大概有看到就是說這邊有寫到專次長說有些三大方面來推動那可以做簡單的解釋嗎是這樣 我們有編列了往後明年開始有一個三年的AI的計畫這個無人機就包含在這裡面"},{"start":466.983,"end":483.238,"text":"那這個無人機就是從三個方面第一個是說那個缺口打算要可以適用這個無人機的點在哪裡包含它的起降點等等還有航線的規劃所以這個要把它盤點出來第二個是法規的部分也要去做"},{"start":484.479,"end":505.157,"text":"讓他可以更常態性的去運用第三個就是那個協調中心因為他有跨部會需要合作我希望部長能夠請我們衛福部我們園民會跟消防署做一些調配看看哪裡需要就哪裡來強化然後剛才說的他的通訊一定要正常才可以行事謝謝謝謝委員謝謝盧先生的發言謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時33分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["石部長崇良：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好。前面的委員都講很多了，不過我還是想針對工業用雙氧水的問題問幾個問題。這次地方衛生局的角色是在哪裡？"],["石部長崇良：當然，現場的稽查還是會由衛生局……"],["盧委員縣一：所以還是稽查？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。像這種比較重大的食安事件，我相信都會有一些危險性存在。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["盧委員縣一：其實我們在地方服務的時候，稽查員常常抱怨他們的工作時間太長。像這種比較重大的案件，他們希望旁邊會有人幫忙，比如可能會有人身安全的問題，在這個時候有達到他們的基本訴求嗎？"],["石部長崇良：大概有兩個考慮，像案件如果涉及到刑事、刑罰的話，我們就會也通報檢調共同處理；如果是一般的稽查，認為有一些風險性，也可以跟……"],["盧委員縣一：我是希望部長能夠重視他們的安全及過勞的問題，好不好？從去年看到這個死亡數，大概有10個人，我想知道去年我們原住民小米粽事件，有家屬跟我反映有沒有國家賠償機制？因為他們的家人莫名其妙地就不見了。"],["石部長崇良：是臺東那個？"],["盧委員縣一：對。"],["姜署長至剛：這邊稍微提一下。因為後來確定小米粽裡面是農藥，農藥這部分在查察到底是什麼原因、怎麼樣摻進去，其實目前是在檢警的調查當中。"],["盧委員縣一：這個部分沒有國家賠償機制嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想這個部分跟……要確定……"],["石部長崇良：因為要符合國家賠償的話，要過程當中有公務人員執行上的問題造成的。"],["盧委員縣一：也就是跟家屬說沒有這方面的賠償？"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。關於工業用雙氧水，剛才王正旭委員有提到異常採購的問題，大家都知道為什麼沒有人會想到用工業用的雙氧水。針對異常採購的部分，你們到現在為止有改善的措施嗎？"],["石部長崇良：就是如何避免讓工業用的雙氧水流入食品鏈當中，所以我們剛剛有特別提到……"],["盧委員縣一：對，這個部分有想到策略嗎？"],["石部長崇良：因為過去我們沒有把它列入我們跟化學雲的勾稽項目裡面，我們會研議看看是不是要納入。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，好。我剛剛看了你們的報告，114年關於食品安全的經費有109億，衛福部的話是29億，特別預算這邊有10億。我的意思是，雖然有這麼多的錢用在食品安全，但問題還是一直層出不窮，你覺得這些錢有用對地方嗎？還是你覺得有沒有地方要改進？"],["石部長崇良：一方面還是需要補充人力，剛剛很多委員都提到現場的稽核也需要耗費人力，所以人力的補充還是有其必要性。"],["盧委員縣一：我剛剛看了，目前的人力大概規劃到599位。現在是167加463，然後再規劃24，再加45，我剛剛算了，是599。"],["石部長崇良：它分成中央和地方，以地方來講，現行是463，另外再補充45，是508。"],["盧委員縣一：我要凸顯的問題是，我剛才有去查，美國關於食品的稽查大概有6,500人，他們的人口是三億四千多萬，也就是剛好是我們的10倍，我們的人力也差不多是那個樣子。我發現這次的問題其實不太是人力的問題，而是早上林淑芬委員講的行政究責及制度改善的問題，那樣才可以真正地把想要從中不法獲利、不具良心的業者揪出來，應該從這個方向前進，部長，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：可以，我們會去強化內部的通報及行政稽查的執行。"],["盧委員縣一：我還是要再次強調注意稽查員的人身安危。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["盧委員縣一：下一個議題是，我上個月有去徐超斌醫生的喪禮看他，就南迴醫院的部分，你目前的想法是什麼？"],["石部長崇良：目前在南迴的部分，我們跟臺東縣政府合作，已經把本來的南迴衛生所變成南迴衛生所暨緊急醫療中心，擴大成略具醫院規模，不是小小……"],["盧委員縣一：對，我常常經過，我主要說的是，現在他們有凸顯一個問題給我，就是他們在輪值的時候，值班的都不是急診專科醫師，所以希望真正去輪值南迴急診醫療照護中心這個位子的醫生是急診專科醫師，我們要不惜重金，因為那邊是唯一可以治療的地方，它距離臺東市及枋寮都有1個小時以上的車程。可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：它目前主要是由包含臺東馬偕、高醫等等來協助人力的支援。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我希望部長能夠知道他們希望……"],["石部長崇良：不過24小時的急診，他們希望都是急診專科醫師的話，我們再來了解一下，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：目前是有24小時。"],["盧委員縣一：我上個月有去那瑪夏。那瑪夏衛生所本來在山上，距離現在他們部落生活的地方非常遠，所以我們有在做前置作業，高雄市衛生局也陪同我們去做初步的概算，大概是2,000萬元，不過前提是希望河邊的整治能夠做好。我在9月底、9月25號也配合水保署1,900萬的防治八期工程計畫，這項計畫已經核定，準備來測試了。水保署已經有努力提出1,900萬的計畫，我希望衛福部能夠寬列2,000萬，在明年或者是近幾年，能夠完成他們衛生所搬遷的這個心願，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：好，我們來努力、協助。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一個是無人機的問題。這次在太巴塱這邊，有3分鐘就把藥品送到災區的經驗，讓人家為之驚豔，覺得說這麼好。可是我們在盤點的時候發現，我們原住民地區沒有升級到5G，地方的通訊都不好，所以光有無人機也不行，你一定要把這些通訊設備弄好。我這邊有看到莊次長說要從三大方面來推動，可以做簡單的解釋嗎？"],["石部長崇良：是這樣的，我們有編列了……從明年開始有個三年的AI計畫，無人機就包含在這裡面。這個無人機計畫有三個方面：第一個是建立開口合約，看無人機適用的點在哪裡，包含它的起降點等等，還有航線的規劃，所以這個要把它盤點出來。第二個是法規的部分也要去做突破，讓它可以更常態性的去運用。第三個就是協調中心，因為需要跨部會合作……"],["盧委員縣一：我希望部長能夠請衛福部跟原民會、消防署做一些調配，看看哪裡需要強化。"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["盧委員縣一：然後剛才說的，通訊一定要正常才可以行使，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：對，謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝盧縣一委員的發言，謝謝部長的說明。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc33a51d8688d3523085f90000f7f2f0aba407684b3aac8590e3f5687b5b8c8e805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:35:42 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謝謝召委我先請一下農業部陳部長經濟部龔部長園民會的股仲副主委還有交通部的陳次長我們請我們部長副主委還有次長我也好我先請教一下這個"},{"start":30.226,"end":54.37,"text":"丹納市的颱風還有728的豪雨 其實確實對台灣造成了相當多的影響那這個重建條例也通過了那也各地方政府也報上來 那我第一個先請教一下這一個廣泛的問題啦 因為裡面有包括高雄的案子裡面其實有包括35案是有關於丹納市颱風跟豪雨的 那水利設施的也有相關案件 包括"},{"start":55.07,"end":82.113,"text":"部落排水啊 山坡整 偏坡整治跟復建還有道路交通的部分還有家園跟公共設施還有社會復原跟產業促進這總數大概將近有差不多100案左右啦我先示意請教一下那總數加起來可能需要到20億的一個支持啦這個案子也都報到中央來了那我先問一下這些案子的部分都會得到中央的支持嗎還是還有什麼樣的考量的我是不是先請農業部長"},{"start":83.354,"end":111.21,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是有關於這次災難台風您剛才所提到的這些農水路的部分還有基礎建設的部分我們農業部大概編的76.82億是協助地方政府那我剛才查了一下在高雄市的部分大概相關的部分大概有5億農糧的部分大概有5億的部分可以去協助但是每一個案子是由地方政府報上來我們還是會現刊然後去做一些核定的動作"},{"start":112.29,"end":139.181,"text":"實際的金額可能會有一些調整但大方向上面會支持啦會給予支持就是說因為當時總統也提過從寬從優從速從減的原則嘛一個大原則就是地方政府查報來我們現刊如果說它其實沒那麼嚴重有沒有那可能用比較少的經費我們也是為這個當然啦如果沒那麼嚴重的話那當然就要調整但是如果確實是事實的話也會從速來給予相關的一個補助跟支持"},{"start":139.901,"end":166.501,"text":"那另外有關於那些的山坡地的一些部分跟野溪的整治的部分那個山坡地的部分我們編了其中76.82億裡面25.72億是邊坡防治的部分都是還在裡面所以是邊坡防治農水路那另外還有所謂的漁港的部分那還有養殖的區的這些農水路這個加起來大概76.82億所以這些大方向上都可以支持就看現場的會刊的狀況好 謝謝部長"},{"start":168.723,"end":184.06,"text":"那再來龔部長因為分成兩個部分一個大概直接民眾的部分這是一個部分或者是廠商的部分他直接來申請那剛才提到嘛從優從寬從素嘛那另外一個就是包括剛才提到的這些"},{"start":185.241,"end":198.197,"text":"檢疫自來水也好或者是水利設施也好因為那個是根據地方政府我們要跟他合作把這個事情做好所以那個要等地方政府我們再跟他協調所以現在報上來的部分多數上是沒有問題的"},{"start":199.759,"end":221.543,"text":"給予支持啦是那剩下的部分當然有些他陸續在報當中特別是比較原鄉的地區有些自來水部分損害的比較嚴重這個請到時候市府報審的時候也請這個經濟部這邊能夠來專案給予支持啦我們我想這個條例跟這個特別預算也希望給予這些受災的災民都給予更大的一個支持啦好 謝謝那再來是不是請下谷中副主委"},{"start":223.727,"end":252.29,"text":"委員好 園民會的部分呢那針對部落排水包括部落聯絡道以及橋樑的部分我們大概編列有將近42億那目前我們已經針對地方政府我們開過三次的審查會議那目前已經審查有317件預算是39.3億所以委員關心這個能不能把部落包括部落排水 邊坡 攤房這些房子能不能納入我們原則上都OK"},{"start":252.93,"end":272.033,"text":"所以這些都有納入了所以從那馬下到桃園到茂林高雄市這三個園鄉的部分都有納入了對 我剛剛跟委員報告有317件是包括到屏東台東嘉義阿里山等等那有關於高雄市三個園區的部分我們再提供數字給委員參考那請還是要大力的支持"},{"start":272.714,"end":297.931,"text":"好 謝謝那再來是不是交通 陳市長交通也是重大的一個影響是不是請市長說一下有關我們公路局省道的部分我們就不提了那個是我們自己會去處理當然也是納在這個條例裡面那至於地方政府所提報的案件裡面高雄市大概有提報了23件那23件經過我們的初審大概都是照數就是同意"},{"start":298.431,"end":316.103,"text":"所以這些都會同意來支持是大概會有1億多的經費報告當時有提到民生橋的部分當時總統跟院長也都承諾了部長也都承諾了這個也希望能夠加速是我們會加速來辦理好謝謝因為總數有高雄也是重災區總數有20億的一個我希望能夠請各部會再加速來協助讓災民能夠早日恢復他的一些狀況"},{"start":322.907,"end":345.785,"text":"那接下來要請教一下 其實大概也給各位看一下其實包括桃園的一些農路啦 包括這個邊坡的等等還有包括納瑪西亞的一樣提案跟這個道路的部分 希望各部會都能夠來加速那因為時間有限 在接下來我來請教一下部長 這個農業部長 陳部長留著就好 其他三位請回"},{"start":347.502,"end":371.037,"text":"馬太安溪這個部分其實現在大家還是在紅色警戒狀態嘛那什麼時候可以解除掉我想那個其實在要去降從紅色警戒降級的時候大概有四個前提第一個部分就是它壩體上面的水流它是穩定的去溢流而不會說有更大的一個變化那我先問這個目前這個狀況是可以的嗎"},{"start":371.777,"end":393.386,"text":"以現在的天候看起來它是一個穩定的溢流而且它的湖水現在所累積的那個比之前預估的還少那如果有遇到好大雨或遇到颱風再來的時候呢其實我們更擔心的是地震因為地震的時候很有可能會形成第二個驗測湖所以我們現在是持續的去做監控"},{"start":393.686,"end":406.36,"text":"所以他即使撤掉了紅色警戒還是會保留還是將來還是有可能隨隨密切注意對 我們監測是持續在做的那現在是紅色警戒那剛才說降低這個警戒的一個燈號的時候"},{"start":408.683,"end":424.985,"text":"第二個部分就是他下游的這些堤防或者是河道的疏進的功能是完成的然後相關的這些邊坡也然後最重要的是疏散撤離計畫是已經很完成的做一些我問一下那所以前三個都已經完成了嗎"},{"start":426.175,"end":446.733,"text":"前三個大概都現在水利事務都差不多完成現在就是說最後一個疏散撤離計畫這邊縣府這邊要做核定因為之前整個疏散撤離包括保全對象包括疏散的路線包括收容的這些處所那其實在前進協調署的時候那個總協調官他已經有做一些協助的部分"},{"start":447.153,"end":467.458,"text":"那相關的因為整個蘇戰撤離作為是由地方政府擬定跟執行所以就等這個部分的話就可能紅色就可以然後再觀察當時的天候但是其實解除要紅色警戒還是必須要密切注意啦因為包括剛剛部長提到的地震甚至包括如果遇到颱風或好大雨的話還是會有相當的一些像我們說"},{"start":468.078,"end":494.046,"text":"如果雨量超過200毫米的話我們會再度發射紅色警戒那如果地震超過5落的時候我們也會發布這些紅色警戒加細胞廣播還有海嘯廣播那當時的時候有人把這個責任推給部長說當時部長說這是安全的所以當時的狀況下是安全的嘛 是嗎我跟委員報告8月13號的時候大家討論的是洋流颱風以當時的水量所以我對外也澄清喔你用8月13號去講現在的情況"},{"start":496.707,"end":525.736,"text":"他本來就是一個不斷動態的因為隨著颱風來隨著好大雨他本來就是一個動態所以我也覺得一方面部長可能要一方面持續澄清另外一方面可能未來也要持續的對外提出更多的一個提醒就是說任何這些狀況因為他都隨著一個動態的一個狀態即使是今天安全也不代表明天就不會有新的狀況發生對 絕對是這樣我們的所有的對外的發布都會根據壩底現在的水流量跟壩底的邊坡的穩定性然後提供中下游的居民的一些警戒"},{"start":525.776,"end":546.676,"text":"我最後一個問一下它是一個動態的調整好 這隨時動態也要隨時對外說明喔我最後要請教一下霸體跟清淤的部分現在有兩頭不同的方式啦一個是納入到這一次的風災的這個預算跟特別條例來處理啦另外一個是單獨在立那現在其實行政院整體是支持應該是納入到比較有效率比較快部長是這樣吧"},{"start":547.116,"end":569.507,"text":"是 我們現在是傾向於就是以農業部的理想我們傾向於用現在的特別預算去做追加的方式可能用丹納斯颱風728不能把這個花蓮這一次的把它一起納進來那增加250億的一個預算那其實來做是最快的啦是 因為整個馬太安颱風馬太安的那個災情它不是說就是花架災颱風引起的"},{"start":569.847,"end":591.173,"text":"它其實是從之前的連續性的影響長期累積性的一個問題所以這次的颱風從但那次颱風0708 0728還有洋雨颱風其實都有陸陸續續的這些影響好 我們希望盡快的修正盡快的來把這些預算編列出來然後盡快來協助花蓮能夠盡速的來重建完成讓基民能夠有好的一個生活希望委員支持好 一定支持謝謝謝謝賴瑞榮委員的資訊 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1122,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時35分）謝謝召委，我先請農業部陳部長、經濟部龔部長、原民會谷縱副主委及交通部陳次長。"],["主席：請部長、副主委及次長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先請教一下，丹娜絲颱風及728豪雨確實對臺灣造成相當多的影響，重建條例也通過了，各個地方政府也報上來了，我第一個先請教一個廣泛的問題，因為高雄的案子裡面有35案是關於丹娜絲颱風及豪雨，水利設施的也有相關案件，包括部落排水、山坡地整治、邊坡防護等復建工程，還有道路及交通、家園及公共設施以及社會復原及產業促進，總數將近有100案左右。我先請教一下，總數加起來可能需要到20億的支持，這個案子也都報到中央來了，請問這些案子都會得到中央的支持嗎？還是還有什麼樣的考量？我先請農業部長。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，有關於這次丹娜絲颱風您剛才所提到的農水路及基礎建設的部分，農業部大概編了76.82億來協助地方政府，我剛才查了一下，高雄市相關農糧的部分大概有5億可以去協助，但是每一個案子是由地方政府報上來，我們還是會現勘，然後去做一些核定，實際的金額可能會有一些調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但大方向上面會給予支持吧？因為當時總統也提過從寬、從優、從速、從簡的原則。"],["陳部長駿季：對，一個大原則就是地方政府報上來，我們去現勘，如果它其實沒那麼嚴重，可能用比較少的經費，我們也是會去支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個當然，如果沒那麼嚴重的話，當然就要調整；但如果確實是事實的話，你會從速給予相關的補助跟支持。"],["陳部長駿季：會的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，有關於山坡地跟野溪整治的部分呢？"],["陳部長駿季：山坡地的部分，我們編的76.82億中有25.72億是邊坡防治的部分，都含在裡面，所以邊坡防治、農水路，另外還有漁港的部分、養殖區的農水路，這些加起來大概是76.82億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這些大方向上都給予支持，就看現場會勘的狀況。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長。","再來，請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：分成兩個部分，一個是民眾直接的部分，這是一個部分，或者是廠商的部分，他直接來申請，剛剛有提到了，會從優、從寬、從速。另外一個就是包括剛剛提到的簡易自來水也好，或者是水利設施也好，因為那個是根據地方政府，我們要跟他合作，把這個事情做好，所以那個要等地方政府，我們再跟他協調。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以現在報上來的部分，多數上是沒有問題的？會給予支持啦？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：剩下的部分，當然有些陸續在報當中，特別是比較原鄉的地區，有些自來水部分損害的比較嚴重，到時候市府報上來的時候，也請經濟部能夠以專案來給予支持。我想這個條例跟這個特別預算希望能給予這些受災的災民更大的支持，謝謝。","再來請谷縱副主委。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：原民會的部分呢？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：針對部落排水，包括部落聯絡道以及橋梁的部分，我們大概編列將近42億，目前我們已經針對地方政府開過3次的審查會議，目前已經審查317件，預算是39.3億，所以委員關心能不能把部落，包括部落排水、邊坡坍方的這些房子納入？我們原則上都OK。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這些都有納入了？從那瑪夏到桃園到茂林，高雄市這3個原鄉的部分都有納入了？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：是、是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以從那瑪夏到桃源、到茂林，高雄這三個原鄉的部分，都有納入了？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對，我剛剛跟委員報告，317件是包括到屏東、臺東、嘉義、阿里山等等，有關於高雄市三個原區的部分，我們再提供數字給委員參考。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好！還是要請大力地支持，謝謝。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：是、是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來是不是請交通部陳次長？交通也有重大的影響，是不是請次長說明一下？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告一下，有關公路局省道的部分，我們就不提了，那是我們自己會去處理，當然也是納在這個條例裡面。至於地方政府所提報的案件裡面，高雄市大概有提報23件，經過我們的初審，大概都是同意照列。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這些都會同意來支持？"],["陳次長彥伯：是、是！大概會有一億多的經費。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括當時有提到民生橋的部分，當時總統跟院長、部長也都承諾了，這也希望能夠加速。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會加速辦理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。因為高雄也是重災區，總數有20億，我希望能夠請各部會再加速協助，讓災民能夠早日恢復。接下來要請教一下，也給各位看一下，包括桃源的一些農路、邊坡等等，還有包括那瑪夏的堤岸跟道路部分，希望各部會都能夠加速。","因為時間有限，再接下來我請教一下，農業部陳部長留著就好，其他三位請回。馬太鞍溪這個部分，現在大概還是在紅色警戒狀態，什麼時候可以解除？"],["陳部長駿季：我想從紅色警戒降級的時候，大概有四個前提，第一個部分，壩體上面的水流是穩定的溢流，不會有更大的變化……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先問這個，目前這個狀況是可以的嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：以現在的天候，看起來它是一個穩定的溢流，而且現在所累積的湖水比之前預估的還少。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果有遇到豪大雨或遇到颱風再來的時候，會不會又產生……"],["陳部長駿季：其實我們更擔心的是地震，因為地震的時候，很有可能會形成第二個堰塞湖，所以我們現在是持續做監控。"],["賴委員瑞隆：即使它撤掉了紅色警戒，將來還是有可能會溢流，所以要隨時密切注意？"],["陳部長駿季：對！監測是持續在做的，現在是紅色警戒，剛才說降低警戒燈號的時候……第二個部分，下游的這些堤防或者河道疏濬的功能是完成的，然後相關的邊坡，最重要的是疏散撤離計畫已經很完整的做一些核定及演練。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問一下，所以前三個都已經完成了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：前三個水利署現在差不多都完成了，最後一個疏散撤離計畫縣府要做核定，因為之前整個疏散撤離，包括保全對象、疏散路線、收容處所，其實在前進協調所的時候，季總協調官已經有做一些協助的部分，因為整個疏散撤離作業是由地方政府擬訂跟執行，這個部分完成以後……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以就等這一個部分完成，紅色警報就有可能可以……"],["陳部長駿季：然後再觀察當時的天候是不是可以……"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是解除紅色警戒後，還是必須密切注意啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對！隨時都要注意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括剛剛部長提到的地震，甚至於包括如果遇到颱風、豪大雨的話，還是會有相當的一些……"],["陳部長駿季：對，像我們說如果雨量超過200毫米的話，我們會再度發布紅色警戒，如果地震超過5弱的時候，我們也會發布紅色警戒加細胞廣播，還有海嘯廣播。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當時有人把這個責任推給部長，提到當時部長說這是安全的，在當時的狀況下是安全的，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，8月13日的時候，大家討論的是楊柳颱風，是以當時的水量來看，所以我對外也澄清，你用8月13號去講現在的情況，時間不對、情境也不對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：本來它就是一個動態的狀況，因為隨著颱風、隨著豪大雨，它本來就是動態，我也覺得部長可能一方面要持續澄清，另外一方面可能未來對任何的狀況也要持續對外提出更多的提醒，因為它隨時處在一個動態的狀態，即使是今天安全，也不代表明天就不會有新的狀況發生。"],["陳部長駿季：對，絕對是這樣。我們所有對外的發布都會根據壩體現在的水流量跟壩體邊坡的穩定性，提供中下游居民一些警戒，所以這是動態的調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，隨時動態調整，也要隨時對外說明。"],["陳部長駿季：是！"],["賴委員瑞隆：我最後請教一下壩體跟清淤的部分，現在有兩種不同方式，一個是納入到這一次風災的預算跟特別條例來處理，另外一個是單獨在立，現在行政院整體是支持應該納入預算，這比較有效率、比較快，部長是這樣吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是！以農業部的立場，我們傾向於用現在特別預算的方式去追加可能會比較快。"],["賴委員瑞隆：用丹娜絲颱風跟728豪雨看能否把花蓮這一次的災區一起納進來，增加250億的預算，這樣來做是最快的，直接可以解決問題。"],["陳部長駿季：因為馬太鞍的災情不是樺加沙颱風引起的，它其實是之前連續性的影響……"],["賴委員瑞隆：長期累計性的一個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這一次的颱風，從丹納絲颱風、0708、0728還有楊柳颱風，其實都有陸陸續續的影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們希望儘快地修正、儘快來把這些預算編列出來、儘快來協助花蓮，能夠儘速地重建完成，讓居民有好的生活。"],["陳部長駿季：也希望委員支持，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一定支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員的質詢，也謝謝部長。","我們邀請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我就照你說的匆匆攏攏對你來講 有刃有餘我先喘口氣"},{"start":29.629,"end":45.16,"text":"金管會不要這個匆匆忙忙就好好 謝謝主席我請金管會彭主委好 我們請彭主委你好彭主委是"},{"start":46.243,"end":66.141,"text":"我們行政院卓院長施政報告開宗明義第一章就是寫要把我們台灣打造成為亞洲資產管理中心這非常的好但是我們有一個大的問題我記得在您一上任那時候我就去年六月我就跟你提"},{"start":66.781,"end":90.937,"text":"就是說我們國內保險業可運用資金的餘額高達35兆之多其中70%有25兆竟然是放在海外購買國外的債券或者基金诶 諸位如果說我們呼籲外國把資產"},{"start":92.799,"end":95.933,"text":"交給我們台灣管理結果我們台灣自己70%"},{"start":99.264,"end":122.927,"text":"的資金是用在國外買債券基金那我們對人家怎麼說服我們自己70%給別人管然後要別人說你的資產給我們台灣管這不是很怪嗎那我們要說服哪些國家說服非洲嗎 肯亞嗎這是很奇怪的事其次"},{"start":124.764,"end":144.298,"text":"這購買海外的債券跟基金當時我們就說到有兩大風險一個戰爭一個匯率嘛結果這兩大就在我們講的去年之後沒幾個月都發生了戰爭俄國大家知道我們國內有三大受險公司五大受險公司"},{"start":145.178,"end":169.258,"text":"買了俄國1380億的債券後來陸續到期到期的部分俄國的答覆很簡單等我戰爭打完了再來算這筆錢戰爭的因素跑出來了匯率在今年的5月我們對美金的匯率那個台幣大幅度的"},{"start":170.53,"end":179.698,"text":"升值的結果光單月將近兩千億兩千億的損失耶天啊所以"},{"start":182.371,"end":207.669,"text":"戰爭跟匯率我們都碰到了所以當時當時我就說我們海外資金上限70%可以到我們的授權資金有70%的上限可以到海外去這個部分我們應該調降我們應該適度的趕快導引這些保險資金讓它回到我們台灣那結果當時"},{"start":211.462,"end":239.411,"text":"貴會的答覆是說有啦找了這些保險公司談這些保險公司說兩個原因第一個原因說我們台灣利率太低第二個台灣市場太小他們意思是說他們也是情不得已出去但是主委你不曉得記不記得當時我就說這兩個原因都不成理由啦第一個你說我們台灣利率低我承認我們台灣利率是低但是"},{"start":240.529,"end":254.045,"text":"你這些受險公司也是以我們台灣這麼低的利率下去當期望值做成產品賣給我們國內的保險的大眾所以利率低你不能講"},{"start":256.422,"end":284.112,"text":"你期望值也低 你的產品也低嗎不是嗎 第二個他們說我們台灣的市場太小所以當時 主委我就拜託貴會後來我也拜託財政部就是說我請貴會跟財政部都要趕快輔導我們國內這些需要建設的部會比方說內政部 比方說交通部比方說衛福部衛福部他們有長照啊"},{"start":285.492,"end":308.491,"text":"交通部有各項的交通建設 鐵路 公路 高速公路各地方的捷運這都是需要資金的啊我們引導他們進來 我們設交通債券 交通公債內政 我們有社會住宅等等嘛那不管設宅"},{"start":310.539,"end":338.055,"text":"長照或者未來開通的捷運自償性都很高也付得起這些利息所以我說要趕快做所以我今天要問你的問題就是說到底這一年來我們輔導了有哪一些部會有沒有去準備好去成立哪一些建設公債建設基金有還是沒有第二點這個讓保險資金去海外"},{"start":339.056,"end":352.446,"text":"的這個比例是不是要從70%下降下調因為在國外看起來這不可思議耶中國啊我們對岸中國跟我們競爭的中國只有2%我們70%韓國8.3%美國12%只有日本高一點日本高一點也不到我們1 3日本21.6天啊"},{"start":365.583,"end":389.034,"text":"只有我們台灣70%這麼高所以這兩個問題我想請教主委有做了嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來回答這個問題其實我們也很希望我們壽險業長期要降低海外的投資的比重因為我們現在壽險面臨到一個叫做避別的不匹配"},{"start":390.114,"end":417.528,"text":"因為他的負債跟他資產不一致所以會面臨到匯率跟利率的風險這是一個但是因為他已經長期投在海外不可能短期就把它匯回來台灣有剛剛委員提到很重要台灣沒有這麼多的工具像比如說他們投的最重要的投固定收益現在大概已經將近20兆的這樣一個金額在台灣其實我們整年所有的公債跟債券市場沒辦法很快吸納所以我們想法就至少你新錢"},{"start":418.709,"end":446.556,"text":"每年他會收到的薪錢大概是兩兆左右的錢我們盡量找工具剛剛委員提到我們做了什麼比如說我們也希望說能夠有一個比如說第一個我們鬆綁法規讓我們的受請公司的這個資金本來交給國外投資能夠交給自己的投信來投資這是一個再來就是我們的兆元投資計畫裡面我們也提出很多很多方案我們甚至請交易所櫃買成立一個資本服務團去協助這些公司力單位去證券化債券化"},{"start":447.976,"end":469.33,"text":"然後還有像很多地方這種發綠債那我們希望說盡量把這個政府剛剛委員提到比如說假設我們也曾經嘗試過把高速公路的收費能不能把它做個證券化也都在跟各個部會在做協商因為這個部分還要花點時間主委我很感謝貴會你們有做這些努力那成果呢 到現在成果怎麼樣"},{"start":470.03,"end":485.975,"text":"其實我們現在陸陸續續有一些啦但是還沒辦法吸納我們的這麼大的受險資金因為很多部會他的心態他就是變於形式嘛反正要建設的錢很簡單預算編了就有啊"},{"start":490.185,"end":509.621,"text":"大家便於形式嘛就從大筆一揮從預算下去編但是我們不應該只是單向的從預算不是這樣嗎我們應該適度的因為需要有時間嘛慢慢的就像你剛剛講不能一下子回來他也不可能一下子回來但是我們每年導引3% 5%"},{"start":512.303,"end":539.859,"text":"這對我們黨預祝這些資金回來建設我們自己台灣這才是正確的嘛不是嗎所以沒有具體的結果就對了現在等於說因為受選人資金整體是非常龐大國內要找尋這些涉及到公建的案例確實是沒有那麼容易啦過去蔡英文總統的時候我看她過去那八年他們也是到後來才警覺這個事情嚴重他們"},{"start":541.144,"end":546.71,"text":"有去說服交通部有成立了七檔交通建設的"},{"start":548.731,"end":575.128,"text":"資金啦 債券雖然那個金額不算大都大概數十億之多但是聊勝於無這是一個開始嘛他們有七檔八年做了七檔所以我希望在你這麼專業認真之下你帶領的團隊能夠趕快跟我們這些相關部會去做這也是我們努力的方向那其次就是關於這個詐騙的部分這個"},{"start":577.95,"end":586.739,"text":"我們這些逃逸的外勞還有逃逸失聯甚至工作渠道的外勞那他們就把這個戶頭就賣給這些詐騙集團那本來這本來數字不大從2022年的521案"},{"start":597.55,"end":626.585,"text":"逐年增加9211862一直到今年6月統計已經超過2000戶2054戶啦那當然我們也祭出重罰說這個可以把他罰100萬以下這個最高會判3年以下可是可是主委光是重罰甚至關他都沒用他人都出境啦人都出境那難道我們要怎樣"},{"start":627.165,"end":649.946,"text":"要去引渡他來我們台灣嗎這都是不可能的事情所以我認為這些事情知識體大我也詢問了我們相關金管會的同仁們他們是說有找勞動部下去談但是我覺得這個部分可能談得還不夠徹底我覺得當然勞動部他似乎不積極"},{"start":651.247,"end":677.938,"text":"不積極所以我希望跟勞動部談你們跟他們談清楚就是說在這件事情上面開戶所謂的外勞他們的自己財產管理的這一部分的權利人權啊這個應該擺在一邊為什麼因為不管他是期限已經到了要回國或者他都已經失聯了簡單的方式就把這個戶頭切斷就好嘛"},{"start":680.259,"end":706.709,"text":"切斷就好人家失聯逃逸的他失聯逃逸他還不敢用這個戶頭啊那請他的雇主也一定現金給他嘛不是嗎所以這樣子的外勞他剛好順便把這個戶頭賣掉就算了所以這樣子的情況下不要在那邊一直考量說外勞也有他的人權他有他的權利去管理他的資金"},{"start":707.849,"end":734.755,"text":"這個一切都在他失聯之後甚至期滿回國以後就要簡單明瞭把它斷線這個也可以載入到勞動部載入到跟外勞引進的合約裡面就可以寫這麼清楚好不好我希望你們跟勞動部因為我知道現在在阻撓的都勞動部啊不積極的都勞動部你跟勞動部講清楚"},{"start":737.184,"end":760.379,"text":"說這個事情知識體大不要再用那些有的沒有的藉口就是不要把簡單的事情複雜化好不好好 謝謝我們會朝著努力我們也看到我們是從去年我們就開始有對接移民署這些的外籍的那個警示帳戶的比例從高峰已經開始往下走那我們會來持續跟其他部會一起來努力"},{"start":761.199,"end":781.099,"text":"我剛看到的數字我念的數字都是往上爬當然有往下的數字當然是好啦八月已經下降下來的因為我們管控措施也慢慢看到一些成效我們會努力謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝主委接下來我們請葛如君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時31分）謝謝主席，我就照你說的從從容容。"],["主席：對你來講，游刃有餘。"],["王委員世堅：我先喘口氣。"],["主席：金管會不要匆匆忙忙就好。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。我請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：行政院卓院長施政報告開宗明義第一章就是寫，要把臺灣打造成為亞洲資產管理中心，這非常的好！但是我們有一個大的問題，我記得在您一上任的時候，即去年6月我就跟你提，國內保險業可運用的資金餘額高達35兆之多，其中70%、有25兆竟然是放在海外購買國外的債券或者基金。如果我們呼籲外國把資產交給臺灣管理，結果臺灣自己有70%的資金在國外買債券、基金，我們怎麼說服人家？我們自己70%給別人管，然後要別人把資金、資產給臺灣管，這不是很怪嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：那我們要說服哪些國家？說服非洲嗎？肯亞嗎？這是很奇怪的事。其次，在購買海外的債券跟基金，當時我們就說有兩大風險，一個是戰爭，另一個是匯率，結果這兩大就如我們講的，去年之後、沒幾個月都發生了。關於戰爭，大家知道俄國，國內有五大壽險公司買了俄國1,380億的債券，後來陸續到期。到期的部分，俄國的答復很簡單，等他戰爭打完了，再來算這筆錢，戰爭的因素跑出來了。至於匯率，今年5月我們兌美金的匯率，因為臺幣大幅度升值的結果，光單月有將近2,000億的損失。天啊！所以戰爭跟匯率我們都碰到了，當時我就說國內的壽險資金有70%的上限可以到海外，這個部分應該調降，應該適度的趕快導引這些保險資金回到臺灣。結果當時貴會的答復是，有找了這些保險公司談，這些保險公司說兩個原因：第一個原因是臺灣利率太低；第二個、臺灣市場太小。他們的意思是他們也是情不得已才出去，但是不曉得主委記不記得？當時我就說這兩個原因都不成理由。第一個、你說臺灣利率低，我承認臺灣利率是低，但這些壽險公司也是以臺灣這麼低的利率下去當期望值，做成產品賣給國內的保險大眾，所以你不能講利率低，利率低，期望值也低，產品也低，不是嗎？第二個、他們說臺灣的市場太小，所以當時我就拜託貴會，也拜託財政部，請貴會跟財政部都要趕快輔導……"],["彭主任委員金隆：找標的。"],["王委員世堅：輔導國內這些需要建設的部會，比方內政部、交通部、衛福部。衛福部有長照，交通部有各項的交通建設，包括鐵路、公路、高速公路、各地方的捷運，這些都需要資金。我們引導他們進來，設交通債券、交通公債，內政則有社會住宅等等。不管社宅、長照或者未來開通的捷運，自償性都很高，也付得起這些利息，所以我說要趕快做。我今天要問你的問題就是，到底這一年來，你們輔導了哪一些部會？有沒有準備好成立哪一些建設公債、建設基金？有還是沒有？","第二點、讓保險資金去海外的比例是不是要從70%下降、下調？因為在國外看起來，這不可思議！對岸的中國、跟我們競爭的中國只有2%，我們70%，韓國8.3%、美國12%，只有日本高一點，日本高一點也不到我們的三分之一，日本21.6%。天啊！只有臺灣70%，這麼高，所以我想請教主委這兩個問題，有做了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員給我機會來回答這個問題。其實我們也很希望壽險業長期要降低海外的投資比重，現在壽險面臨到一個叫做幣別的不匹配，因為它的負債跟資產不一致，所以會面臨到匯率跟利率的風險，這是一個。但是它已經長期投資在海外，不可能短期就把它匯回來，剛剛委員提到很重要的，臺灣沒有這麼多工具，比如他們最重要的是投固定收益，現在將近20兆的金額在臺灣，整年所有的公債跟債券市場沒辦法很快吸納，所以我們的想法就是至少新錢，每年他會收到的新錢大概是2兆左右，我們儘量找工具。","剛剛委員提到，我們做了什麼？我們也希望能夠有比如第一個、我們鬆綁法規讓壽險公司的資金本來交給國外投資，能夠改交給自己的投信來投資，這是一個。再來就是我們在兆元投資計畫裡面也提出很多、很多方案，甚至請交易所、櫃買成立一個資本服務團，協助這些公私立單位證券化、債券化，還有像很多地方政府發綠債。我們希望儘量把政府……剛剛委員提到，我們也曾經嘗試過能不能把高速公路的收費證券化，也都在跟各個部會協商，因為這個部分還要花一點時間。"],["王委員世堅：我很感謝貴會有做這些努力，到現在成果怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們陸陸續續有一些，但是還沒辦法吸納這麼大的壽險資金。"],["王委員世堅：因為很多部會的心態就是便宜行事，反正要建設的錢很簡單，預算編了就有，所以大家就便宜行事，大筆一揮，從預算下去編，但是我們不應該只是單項的從預算，不是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：我們應該適度的，因為需要時間、慢慢的，就像你剛剛講的，不能一下子回來，也不可能一下子回來，但是我們每年導引3%、5%，讓這些資金挹注臺灣、回來建設我們自己，這才是正確的，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：所以沒有具體的結果就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在等於說因為壽險資金整體是非常龐大，國內要找尋這些涉及到公建的案例確實沒有那麼容易啦。"],["王委員世堅：過去蔡英文總統的時候，我看他過去那8年，他們也是到後來才警覺這個事情嚴重，他們有去說服交通部成立了7檔交通建設的債券，雖然那個金額不算大，大概都數十億之多，但是聊勝於無，這是一個開始。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：他們有7檔，8年做了7檔，所以我希望在你這麼專業、認真之下，你帶領的團隊能夠趕快跟我們這些相關部會去做協調，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們努力的方向。"],["王委員世堅：其次就是關於詐騙的部分，我們這些逃逸的外勞，還有逃逸、失聯，甚至工作期到的外勞，他們就把戶頭賣給這些詐騙集團。本來數字不大，從2022年的521人逐年增加到921人、1,862人，一直到今年6月統計已經超過2,000人，有2,054人。當然我們也祭出重罰，說可以罰一百萬以下、最高可判三年以下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：人都離境、走了。"],["王委員世堅：可是主委，光是重罰甚至關他都沒用，他人都出境了！難道我們要去引渡他回來我們臺灣嗎？這都是不可能的事情，所以我認為這些事情茲事體大。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：我也詢問了你們相關金管會的同仁們，他們是說有找勞動部去談。"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["王委員世堅：但是我覺得這個部分可能談得還不夠徹底，當然勞動部似乎不積極，所以我希望跟勞動部談，你們跟他們談清楚，在這一件事情上面，所謂的外勞開戶，他們自己的財產管理這一部分的權利、人權應該擺在一邊，為什麼？因為不管他是期限已經到了要回國，或者他都已經失聯了，簡單的方式就是把這個戶頭切斷就好嘛！切斷就好！人家失聯、逃逸的也不敢用這個戶頭，聘請他的雇主也一定是給他現金嘛！不是嗎？所以這樣子的外勞，他剛好順便把這個戶頭賣掉就算了。所以這樣子的情況下，不要在這邊一直考量外勞也有他的人權，他有他的權利去管理他的資金，這一切都是在他失聯之後，甚至期滿回國以後就要簡單明瞭把它斷線，這個也可以請勞動部納入到跟外勞引進的合約裡面，就可以寫得很清楚，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝，我們有在這邊……"],["王委員世堅：我希望你們跟勞動部……因為我知道現在阻撓的都是勞動部。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["王委員世堅：不積極的都是勞動部，你跟勞動部講清楚，說這個事情茲事體大，不要再用那些有的、沒有的藉口，就是不要把簡單的事情複雜化，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝，我們會朝這方面努力，也看到自從去年我們開始有對接移民署這些外籍勞工的部分，警示帳戶的比例從高峰已經開始往下走，我們會持續跟其他部會一起來努力。"],["王委員世堅：好，我剛剛看到的數字、我唸的數字都是往上爬的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在8月……"],["王委員世堅：當然有往下的數字是好啦，我希望你提供。"],["彭主任委員金隆：8月已經下降下來了，因為我們的管控措施也慢慢看到一些成效。"],["王委員世堅：好，加油。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會努力。"],["王委員世堅：加油。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝主委。","接下來我們請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcf373e8bcfa10fe2c85f90000f7f2f0aba407684b3aac8590374e8c2d51edcf395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:29:34 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當然好 那我們來看一下農業長期缺工 災後農業缺工農業對移工人力有需求但另一方面我們美國關稅影響工廠減半休息收入累減的移工他對工作有需求因此農業部提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職運用架構有需求有方法就可以執行那天問你們部長說目前的障礙出在救福法對不對"},{"start":106.939,"end":124.196,"text":"好 我們來看一下好 照我們看農業部的這個草案我就不再贅述在我看來它就會變成有兩個雇主但是就無法我們規定一共它是單一雇主往下看所以如果說我們在未來行政院要提出一個重建特別條例我們這個單納市的重建特別條例不是要修嗎"},{"start":125.342,"end":148.318,"text":"有沒有要修那我們是不是可以裡面多修一個讓我們制定一個就業服務法的除外適用範圍跟對象的條款只在特別法裡面訂而且是有期限的兩年半這樣子不影響勞動部您覺得可不可以研究一下這部分我們可以來研究評好謝謝請回那我們請那個經濟部長您調試來了那我們再也請園區管理局的楊局長也請上來"},{"start":150.742,"end":166.885,"text":"好我們來看到這個北市科很夯啊聽說他的未來的潛在收益從107億到140億換算他3.89公頃大概每公頃的租金收益在未來的"},{"start":167.626,"end":193.348,"text":"每年喔 把它除以50年每年可以收5500萬到7200萬這是指北市科那一段地但是我們屏東雖然沒有北市科也不是輝達要來但是我們看到台積電他有10個供應商要來屏東科學園區但是不夠 裝不下還要去碰旁邊的怎麼樣旁邊的大面積的大概要看30公頃部長知道嗎"},{"start":195.08,"end":213.334,"text":"他們說要跟台塘合作開發 屏東縣都這樣表示 可以嗎可以嗎 可不可以 往下看好 我們來跟地方政府討論好 不是已經討論了 已經在做了很多台湯堆上面的賺不到的 現在他們的左右告急台湯跟他們說 我們現在可能有兩萬要贏啊所以我們要收回來 30公頃至少啦 來"},{"start":218.203,"end":243.403,"text":"台糖 你們知道 台糖一公頃一公頃一年收多少 你知道嗎 部長你知道嗎一年六萬啦 一年六萬啦未來如果說 不要說揮打啦 租給其他的二哥 三哥 六哥啦至少也有好幾千萬一公頃 那台糖從六萬變成一公頃一年可以輸了上千萬 你覺得"},{"start":244.878,"end":263.584,"text":"你覺得台糖對台糖有沒有什麼幫助第一個它的地價稅縣政府幫他辦變更地價稅可以多收台糖的地價增值很好租金大大的收益是不是山贏台糖贏對不對地方政府贏進入了廠商贏誰沒有贏"},{"start":269.296,"end":277.866,"text":"誰沒有贏所以我請問一下部長是否支持高科技電子業的租金負責大方台糖的收益拿來回饋地方知不支持"},{"start":282.033,"end":297.309,"text":"可以嗎來 說明一下可不可以 簡單講 時間的關係 簡單講就是說如果是符合台糖的睦鄰規定的話我們可以建造來做睦鄰規定 台糖的睦鄰規定可以修我建議你怎麼修 往下看 趕快了台糖可以幫助青年上業減少生活壓力 往下看 怎麼樣呢阿中跟你建議啦"},{"start":298.01,"end":304.652,"text":"屏東孩子屏東煮茶 台湯在屏東台湯都種五萬公頃全國 屏東就一萬一千公頃過去我們是騎馬不便宜 現在判來了台積電觀念廠商他可以台湯鎮壓 豆子都輸益這個呢 屏東孩子多出一人台湯包五十萬的紅包類 你說好不好大家都說好 部長好不好"},{"start":318.596,"end":343.653,"text":"好不好 我們來核算一下核算一下 往下看 這個要幹嘛請進入盤點台塘租賃收益及回饋機制 趕快想辦法讓我們地區性的政策回饋地方台塘如果租地給高科技廠商電子線的不只屏東 其他的縣市也可以比照辦理 好不好我沒有做主事的啦 台南也有 嘉義也有 對不對只要有騰訊的地方 我們的租地幾分幾吋一個人五十萬人包內 保證啊 加油一下 好不好"},{"start":346.758,"end":362.795,"text":"好 謝謝 核算一下你講啊 要部長講啦 我要你騙他 部長好不好我來核算一下 好 謝謝謝謝啦 讓我們的台湯子弟更有地方子弟能夠享受這相關的福利啦 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時29分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、記者媒體女士、先生。有請經濟部龔部長和勞動部陳次長，以及勞發署施副署長。"],["主席：請鍾委員所邀請的所有備詢單位備詢。"],["龔部長明鑫：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。聽說你是報紙披露政務官當中被跟監偷拍的受害者之一，是這樣嗎？有疑似這樣？"],["龔部長明鑫：有疑似這樣的情況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛黃國昌委員在質詢你的時候，你心裡有沒有一些陰影？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你的心理素質可能很強，你先站旁邊一下，我問一下勞動部陳次長。"],["陳次長明仁：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那天我在衛環委員會問了洪部長有關工廠移工支援農業打工的運用，很快的，這次減班休息，包括移工在內已經超過8,500人，但是我們知道各種新聞顯示農業缺工是常態，缺工問題難解。佛祖街的農民表示，田都被淤泥覆蓋，目前誰會來協助清除還不清楚，但是他很希望能夠早日復耕。你支持他們早日復耕嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，農業長期缺工、災後農業缺工，農業對移工人力有需求，但另一方面，受美國關稅影響、工廠減班休息、收入銳減，移工對於工作有需求。因此農業部提出了一個「製造業移工支援農業兼職運用架構」，有需求、有方法，就可以執行。那天問你們部長，聽說目前的障礙出在就服法，對不對？"],["陳次長明仁：是，就服法基本上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業部的這個草案我就不再贅述，在我看來，他就會變成有兩個雇主，但是就服法規定移工只能單一雇主。所以如果未來行政院要提出一個重建特別條例，丹娜絲的重建特別條例不是要修了嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有要修？我們是不是可以在裡面多修一個……讓我們制定一個就業服務法的除外適用範圍及對象的條款，只在特別法裡面訂，而且有兩年半的期限，這樣子不影響勞動部，你覺得可不可以研究一下？"],["陳次長明仁：這部分我們可以來研究、評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，請回。我們請經濟部長，您調適好了嗎？另外園區管理局的楊局長也請上來。","最近北士科很夯，聽說它未來的潛在收益從107億到140億，換算面積3.89公頃，再把它除以50年，未來每年每公頃的租金收益大概可以收5,500萬到7,200萬，這是指北士科那塊地。而我們屏東雖然沒有北士科，輝達也沒有要來，但是我們看到台積電有10個供應商要來屏東科學園區，但是不夠、裝不下，還要去旁邊找大面積的土地，大概要30公頃，部長知道嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我知道有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們說要跟台糖合作開發，屏東縣政府這樣表示，可以嗎？可不可以？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們來跟地方政府討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是要討論，是已經在做了，很多在台糖土地上種毛豆的，現在他們的租約到期，台糖跟他們說，我們現在可能另有用途，所以要收回來，至少要30公頃。部長，你知道台糖租給別人種毛豆，一公頃一年可以收多少嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個我就不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一年6萬啦！未來不要說輝達，就算是租給其他的二哥、三哥、六哥，一公頃至少也有好幾千萬，台糖從一年6萬變成一公頃可以租上千萬，你覺得台糖對他們有沒有什麼幫助？第一個是他的地價稅，縣政府幫他辦變更，地價稅可以多收，台糖的地價增值，很好！大大的租金收益，是不是三贏？台糖贏、地方政府贏、進入的廠商贏，但誰沒有贏？當地居民啊！他們得到什麼？也沒賺到湯，也沒賺到料。所以我請問一下，部長是否支持高科技電子業的租金付得大方，台糖的收益拿來回饋地方？支不支持？可不可以？"],["龔部長明鑫：請胡司長說明一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：時間的關係，簡單講。"],["胡司長文中：如果是符合台糖的睦鄰規定的話，我們可以建議他來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：台糖的睦鄰規定可以修，我建議怎麼修？台糖可以幫助青年，減少生活壓力，我跟你建議，對於屏東孩子、屏東子弟，台糖土地全國共有5萬公頃，光屏東就有1萬1,000公頃，過去我們是「站尾包衰」，現在派來了台積電關聯廠商，他們可以為台糖增加租金收入，所以未來屏東孩子嫁娶，台糖每人包50萬的紅包禮，你說好不好？大家都說好，部長，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們來核算一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你們核算一下。請經濟部盤點台糖租金收益及回饋機制，趕快修辦法，讓我們成為地區性的政策回饋地方，台糖如果租地給高科技、電子業廠商，不只是屏東，其他縣市也可以比照辦理，好不好？我沒有很自私，讓臺南也有，嘉義也有，只要有糖廠的地方，我們的子弟結婚嫁娶，一個人就包50萬的紅包禮，部長，加油一下好不好？好？謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：你不要亂講。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是你講的？要部長講啦！部長，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我要核算一下，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，讓我們的地方子弟能夠享受這相關的福利，謝謝部長，謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","現在請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們要有請農業部部長 經濟部部長 台電的總經理今天是總經理來嘛 是不是我們請兩位部長 還有我們台電總經理 謝謝文英浩文英浩三位好 時間的關係 不宜問候"},{"start":25.799,"end":41.408,"text":"我們在推動整個再生能源特別是光電整個歷程當中在2017年的時候太陽光電二年推動計畫修正版裡面針對有關於在水域空間要放地面型的光電兩年的目標是150MW"},{"start":43.936,"end":57.548,"text":"那裡面包括了非常多的水庫我從公開資訊可以找得到的從阿公店水庫寶二水庫內補職水庫一路下來這個是我從公開資訊可以找得到的部分下一個問題"},{"start":60.042,"end":85.809,"text":"針對有關於在水庫放光電板的這件事情民主進步黨有個辟謠專區說太陽能板沒有毒不會破壞烏山頭水庫的水質太陽能板都用清水清理大家都不用擔心不會對水質造成任何的影響請問一下經濟部經濟部的立場跟民進黨的立場是不是一致的"},{"start":87.711,"end":114.329,"text":"報告委員因為水質我們都有監控是如果水質有變的話我們就會知道ok好那這些水它要進到我們沒有我其實問題只有非常簡單啦在水庫裡面裝光電板的這件事情經濟部認為是不是對於飲水不會造成任何影響yes or no我們會監控如果有有異質我們就會來我先給你看喔右手邊的例子來請部長看一下右手邊的例子"},{"start":115.717,"end":138.014,"text":"之前在配合這個計畫的時候針對有關於曾文水庫大浦鄉公所給光電業者在曾文水庫設後來嘉義縣議會做了決議說反對對民生用水的水庫不同意設置太陽光電發電系統嘉義縣議會做了這樣子的決議以後嘉義縣政府就不發了"},{"start":143.164,"end":163.525,"text":"籌備許可那針對嘉義縣政府這樣子的立場經濟部贊不贊成會不會覺得嘉義縣政府是禮盲嘉義縣政府不講道理光電板不會影響飲用水的安全憑什麼不准設因為到最後啦大埔鄉公所被判罰六千萬因為嘉義縣政府不願意給他許可"},{"start":165.529,"end":193.482,"text":"因為我現在從地方政府到中央政府現在我看了覺得很困惑啊嘉義縣民有疑慮嘉義縣議會做決議嘉義縣政府從善如流我沒有在責怪任何一個單位的意思但問題是說中央政府說沒有問題中央政府說很乾淨很安全那一般的民眾就搞不清楚啦為什麼嘉義縣議會做了決議以後嘉義縣政府就可以不發許可"},{"start":194.741,"end":208.809,"text":"那針對有關於水庫放光電板的這件事情我問一個最直接的立法院如果做決議的話經濟部會遵守嗎還是經濟部認為說立法院做立法院的決議我經濟部愛怎麼幹你們管不著"},{"start":211.972,"end":238.419,"text":"這是我的問題因為程序上來講因為從全這個這個水庫放光電板不是只有台灣各有的現象是但這不是我的問題是那大大大致上來講的話都沒有所謂的這個水質變化的問題所以我們當然也允許這樣的處理所以嘉義縣政府不發許可就嘉義縣政府不講道理嗎是不是程序上來講的話地方政府有地方政府多種的考量可能水質的擔心自己"},{"start":240.96,"end":262.768,"text":"他擔心水質有沒有道理擔心水質本來就有道理就有道理嘛 非常好所以我最後關鍵的問題嘉義縣議會做了決議嘉義縣政府就不發許可現在我的問題很直接啊我們立法院如果做了這樣子的決議經濟部水利署會不會停止推動在水庫放光電板"},{"start":264.275,"end":284.992,"text":"這是我的問題我們程序上來講的話還是第一關就是地方政府如果不同意的話我們就不會收件你還是沒有回答我的問題如果在政策上面立法院做了這樣子的決議經濟部會不會如同嘉義縣政府一樣從善如流地方議會做決議嘉義縣政府就不發啦這個是嘉義縣政府給的理由欸"},{"start":285.552,"end":309.243,"text":"市長 那立法院如果決議的話總是要有一個什麼樣的理由嘛是 沒有關係啊 我100%援引嘉義縣議會的理由啊就是居民擔心用水的安全 剛剛你也說這個考慮是有道理的啊我100%援引用嘉義縣議會的理由啊現在我在思考的事情就是我們過了這樣子的決議"},{"start":310.74,"end":319.329,"text":"行政院會不會說立法院濫權擴權做了決議行政機關沒有必要要遵守這個是我的問題我們來看看說那個決議狀第二個問題目前國家風景區內烏山頭水庫設置光電板"},{"start":326.877,"end":344.899,"text":"要不要環評這件事情 我上次請教環境部部長主席不好意思 這個問題問完我就下來了然後環境部部長說什麼環境部部長說 現在是不用環評未來要不要環評 他們在考慮結果我逼問了半天了以後他把問題推給誰 他把問題推給經濟部的元素"},{"start":345.984,"end":372.816,"text":"他意思是說啊立法委員不要一直去問環境部環境部也很無奈啦裡面有個非常重要的目的事業主管機關他們可以不准他們可以卡著但是他們一直要推現在鍋全部給環境部背那天部長在備詢的時候看起來表情也是很無奈那我沒有辦法不能強人所難嘛所以我現在只能回來問經濟部啊經濟部水利署贊不贊成未來水面型的光電廠納入環評"},{"start":375.868,"end":400.255,"text":"所有的光電或者是綠能產業的推動是整個行政院甚至於全國環境上的目標所以我才不要一人一把號不會是只有我們的目標所以我問了環境部環境部不敢答他要我問經濟部所以我今天站在這邊請教部長所以我們要釐清的就是這個疑慮這個疑慮的話我們就先暫緩那如果先把它釐清"},{"start":400.495,"end":416.988,"text":"沒有 我的問題是你贊不贊成把它納入環評納入環評才知道有沒有辦法去消除疑慮不是嗎現在我問的問題非常的單純現在水面型的光電不用環評然後現在政策評估上面在考慮要把它納入環評從經濟部的立場贊不贊成我們是不是這個問題齁這個因為現在已經引發了"},{"start":423.853,"end":442.242,"text":"社会的关注是不是这个问题我们请相关单位经济部跟环境部因为今天环境部次长也有到把这个问题然后作为你们这个慎重去讨论的一个议题好不好可以吗可以喔好好谢谢主席的才智谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1044,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時22分）謝謝主席，請農業部部長、經濟部部長、台電總經理。"],["主席：請兩位部長，還有台電總經理，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["龔部長明鑫：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係，不一一問候。我們在推動整個再生能源的歷程當中，特別是光電，在2017年「太陽光電2年推動計畫（修正版）」裡面，針對在水域空間要放地面型的光電，兩年的目標是150MW，裡面包括了非常多的水庫，我從公開資訊可以找得到的部分有，從阿公店水庫、寶二水庫、內埔子水庫一路下來，這些是我從公開資訊可以找得到的部分。","下一個問題，針對在水庫放光電板的這件事情，民主進步黨有個闢謠專區說太陽能板沒有毒，不會破壞烏山頭水庫的水質，太陽能板都用清水清理，大家不用擔心，不會對水質造成任何的影響。請問一下經濟部，經濟部的立場跟民進黨的立場是不是一致？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為水質我們都有監控，如果水質有變的話，我們就會知道，這些水要進到自來水廠……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，其實我的問題非常簡單，在水庫裡面裝光電板的這件事情，經濟部是不是認為對於飲水不會造成任何影響？Yes or No？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會監控，如果有異質，我們就會追查原因。"],["黃委員國昌：我先給你看右手邊的例子，請部長看一下右手邊的例子，之前在配合這個計畫的時候，針對曾文水庫，大埔鄉公所給光電業者在曾文水庫設，後來嘉義縣議會做了決議說反對，對於民生用水的水庫不同意設置太陽光電發電系統。嘉義縣議會做了這樣子的決議以後，嘉義縣政府就不發籌備許可了，針對嘉義縣政府這樣子的立場，經濟部贊不贊成？會不會覺得嘉義縣政府是理盲，嘉義縣政府不講道理，光電板不會影響飲用水的安全，憑什麼不准設？因為到最後大埔鄉公所被判罰6,000萬，因為嘉義縣政府不願意給它許可。","從地方政府到中央政府，我看了覺得很困惑，嘉義縣民有疑慮，嘉義縣議會做決議，嘉義縣政府從善如流，我沒有在責怪任何一個單位的意思，但問題是中央政府說沒有問題，中央政府說很乾淨、很安全，那一般的民眾就搞不清楚了，為什麼嘉義縣議會做了決議以後，嘉義縣政府就可以不發許可？針對水庫放光電板的這件事情我問一個最直接的，立法院如果做決議的話，經濟部會遵守嗎？還是經濟部認為立法院做立法院的決議，我經濟部愛怎麼蓋，你們管不著？這是我的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，在程序上來講，因為在水庫放光電板不是臺灣特有的現象……"],["黃委員國昌：是，但這不是我的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，大致上來講的話都沒有所謂水質變化的問題，所以我們當然也允許這樣子的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘉義縣政府不發許可是嘉義縣政府不講道理，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，程序上來講的話，地方政府有地方政府多種的考量，可能對水質的擔心是一件事情而已。"],["黃委員國昌：對，他們擔心水質有沒有道理？"],["龔部長明鑫：擔心水質本來就有道理。"],["黃委員國昌：本來就有道理嘛！非常好，所以我最後關鍵的問題……"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我們會監測……"],["黃委員國昌：嘉義縣議會做了決議，嘉義縣政府就不發許可，現在我的問題很直接，我們立法院如果做了這樣子的決議，經濟部水利署會不會停止推動在水庫放光電板？這是我的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：以我們的程序上來講的話，第一關就是地方政府，如果不同意的話，我們就不會收件。"],["黃委員國昌：你還是沒有回答我的問題，如果在政策上面，立法院做了這樣子的決議，經濟部會不會如同嘉義縣政府一樣從善如流？地方議會做決議，嘉義縣政府就不發啦！這個是嘉義縣政府給的理由。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，立法院如果決議的話，總要有一個什麼樣的理由嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個理由如果是確實的話……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊！我百分之一百援引嘉義縣議會的理由，就是居民擔心用水的安全，剛剛你也說這個考慮是有道理的，我百分之一百援引嘉義縣議會的理由，現在我在思考的事情是，我們通過了這樣子的決議，行政院會不會說立法院濫權、擴權，做了決議行政機關沒有必要遵守？這個是我的問題啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們來看看那個決議到底是怎樣……"],["黃委員國昌：來看看，好。第二個問題，針對目前在國家風景區內烏山頭水庫設置光電板要不要環評這件事情我上次請教環境部部長，主席，不好意思，這個問題問完我就下來了，然後環境部部長說什麼？環境部部長說現在是不用環評，未來要不要環評他們在考慮。結果我逼問了半天以後，他把問題推給誰？他把問題推給經濟部能源署，他的意思是說，立法委員不要一直去問環境部，環境部也很無奈，裡面有個非常重要的目的事業主管機關，他們可以不准、他們可以卡著，但是他們一直要推，現在鍋全部給環境部背，那天部長在備詢的時候看起來表情也是很無奈。那我沒有辦法，不能強人所難嘛！所以我現在只能回來問經濟部，經濟部水利署贊不贊成未來水面型的光電場納入環評？"],["龔部長明鑫：所有的光電或者是綠能產業的推動是整個行政院、甚至於全國在環境上的目標……"],["黃委員國昌：是，沒錯，所以我才不要一人一把號嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：不會是只有我們的目標而已。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我問了環境部，環境部不敢答，他要我問經濟部，所以我今天站在這邊請教部長嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們要釐清的就是這個疑慮，如果有這個疑慮的話，我們就先暫緩，先把它釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我的問題是你贊不贊成把它納入環評？納入環評才知道有沒有辦法去消除疑慮，不是嗎？現在我問的問題非常單純，現在水面型的光電不用環評，而現在的政策評估在考慮要把它納入環評，經濟部的立場贊不贊成？"],["龔部長明鑫：是不是我們討論後再回復……"],["主席：謝謝，因為這個問題現在已經引發了社會的關注，這個問題我們請相關單位，包含經濟部跟環境部，因為今天環境部次長也有到，將這個問題作為你們要慎重討論的一個議題，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，好，謝謝主席的裁示，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝黃國昌委員。","現在請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟石耀蘇 江署長請副長來 江署長從新報告王委員選導結束之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝這第一名要招委對不對"},{"start":30.583,"end":53.262,"text":"部長 署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求也其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先"},{"start":56.084,"end":78.821,"text":"再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟這個管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分"},{"start":79.341,"end":93.978,"text":"那這個監管的部分看起來是用這個資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程那它的人數上又以至少要5人為主那當初在考量這些"},{"start":94.518,"end":112.706,"text":"市政規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下"},{"start":114.166,"end":130.104,"text":"原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠"},{"start":130.925,"end":147.013,"text":"提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法"},{"start":147.284,"end":168.767,"text":"對 所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要跟一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範"},{"start":169.988,"end":193.678,"text":"它的設立時間其實蠻早的12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於這個營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的那我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路"},{"start":194.698,"end":211.929,"text":"可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的制造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸"},{"start":216.011,"end":234.277,"text":"這一些相關的這個獨租廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式"},{"start":234.597,"end":258.149,"text":"報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告"},{"start":258.809,"end":286.815,"text":"各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易"},{"start":287.935,"end":314.564,"text":"但是他可能影響後面他發展之後他可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為他的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把他要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計劃所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整"},{"start":315.284,"end":330.291,"text":"再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於這個GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用"},{"start":330.911,"end":349.194,"text":"剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上OK 好 這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理"},{"start":349.855,"end":374.933,"text":"那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠他用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這家工廠他會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把他故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些"},{"start":375.673,"end":393.051,"text":"好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度"},{"start":393.832,"end":409.529,"text":"意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式"},{"start":410.129,"end":432.95,"text":"就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查"},{"start":433.59,"end":449.728,"text":"那第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示"},{"start":450.689,"end":462.204,"text":"另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓他這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何"},{"start":466.077,"end":493.9,"text":"這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學雲的選定化學物質"},{"start":494.881,"end":520.996,"text":"那选定的一些原则里面我们其实有一部分是食品业者可疑厂商的筛选所以刚才委员特别提到了对于特定的厂商他特定的需求在不同的等级的一些化学物质的采购跟流向的部分我觉得的确是我们是可以进一步去做过去我们针对这部分其实就已经有盯住了62项的化学物质过去在食品安全上面有疑虑的"},{"start":521.576,"end":548.414,"text":"那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是"},{"start":549.375,"end":572.933,"text":"我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品"},{"start":573.533,"end":594.722,"text":"那這一種呢又是另外一種管理方式那這個要避免的我們去盤點一下我們可供告可使用的化學添加物裡面哪一些是同時有工業等級這個就是另外一種這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開啦好 這一部分我等一下還會請教許主任"},{"start":595.843,"end":613.439,"text":"再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度許書仁稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這位負責人"},{"start":614.019,"end":634.718,"text":"那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個寧夏夜市他用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候他很快的也做了一些公佈"},{"start":635.419,"end":646.519,"text":"重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QR Code的食材來源檢驗機制強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等"},{"start":647.239,"end":667.254,"text":"那我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請那這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障"},{"start":667.774,"end":688.377,"text":"所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要"},{"start":688.937,"end":714.659,"text":"因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學付諸食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界"},{"start":716.559,"end":742.345,"text":"食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是Science in Action就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障"},{"start":742.925,"end":761.554,"text":"那科學本身是一個很具有能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分"},{"start":762.294,"end":784.126,"text":"我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善其實這一些的資料都是各部會給"},{"start":785.985,"end":796.061,"text":"環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會"},{"start":801.548,"end":821.058,"text":"去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料就是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的"},{"start":822.774,"end":836.86,"text":"欄位裡面怎麼可以失空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好 謝謝"},{"start":837.748,"end":863.595,"text":"所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用Science in Action就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好"},{"start":864.595,"end":892.495,"text":"當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證"},{"start":893.476,"end":913.056,"text":"最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好 大家來一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝王議員 謝謝部長 主任 請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時14分）好，謝謝主席。麻煩石部長和食藥署姜署長。"],["主席：請石部長和姜署長。","這邊重新公告，王委員詢答結束後，我們就來處理臨時提案，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：部長、署長好。"],["石部長崇良：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：針對今天這個主題，很多委員都已經給部裡非常多元的意見，期待也很高，希望在食安的部分，不要讓國人的日常生活受到影響，食衣住行的部分應該要優先。","接下來我要跟部長和署長討論關於規範和管制機制的部分，有沒有其他可以進一步處理的地方。上一週食藥署公告一些修正內容，包括根據食品安全衛生管理法第七條第四項增加了一些要求監管的部分，看起來這個監管是以資本額為依據，希望在不同的資本額下有不同的期程，人數上以至少要5人為主。當初在考量這些時程規劃跟評估考量的內容時，不知道衛福部有什麼特別因素，為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要有5人以上的食品工廠，才需要有這種規範及監管要求？署長這邊可不可以先說明一下？"],["姜署長至剛：原先納管的規定範圍，資本額是偏高的，要到3,000萬以上，對於整個製造、加工及調配業者，我們希望縮小限制，讓它能夠管轄的範圍在這一次提升到較為全面。以5人來講，其實就是一般小型工廠，在這種小型工廠都納管的前提之下，我們希望把整體納管的範圍一致性的達到最大的涵蓋面，目前是這樣的想法。"],["王委員正旭：如果看新增的部分，資本額未達1,000萬元者，117年才開始要實施。但我們看這一次出問題的百威公司，資本額才500萬元，如果依照這個規定，要到117年才有可能讓它進入到規範裡。其實它公司設立時間蠻早的，在12年前，也就是102年就成立了。但這十幾年來，好像資本額並沒有改變，所以我們這樣的規範，似乎和以營業額為規範帶來的影響蠻不一樣。我們也知道這家百威公司的營業登記是在臺北寧夏路，可是工廠設在屏東，應該就是在屠宰場裡面，這樣比較好作業，它的倉庫也都是在不同縣市，這部分我們可以理解。現在問題是，針對不同資本額的製造、加工、調配業者，這次出問題的是3.7公噸的毒豬腸加工食品，不知道你們現在這樣的設計，將來在執行上，會出現哪一些可能的問題和漏洞？這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正、作滾動式的管理模式？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，針對這部分，其實部長也特別指示我們，現在的規定是資本額，其實針對整個營業額的項次，我們是希望可以在未來的電子發票和電子登錄裡面的勾稽，能夠確實掌握他們實際上的營業狀況，作為我們接下來的一步，將一定規模的業者更確實納管的想法。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當時訂定的基本邏輯是以影響層面為主，但資本額並不等於營業額，可能它設立的時候資本額並不大，可是後面銷售可能會很大量。所以我們也在研究是不是要加以修正，而不是按照這個公司設立時的資本額來界定，因為要設立一家公司很容易，但是它後面發展之後，可能的銷售額或營業額很大，影響層面就大了！而影響層面越大，一旦有狀況的時候，風險會越高！所以我們會要求把它納入食品安全的管理計畫。這部分我們會再來檢討，在實務可行的情形之下，作滾動式的修正與調整。"],["王委員正旭：是，我想……"],["姜署長至剛：一點點補充，因為所有的工廠一定要先有登記，而這個廠是沒有登記的。因為沒有登記，所以直接就違法。對於所有工廠的GHP要求，其實全部是一體適用，剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人，這件事情我們希望分年來實施，在委員的建議之下，我們也會進一步去評估看看要怎麼調整，以上。"],["王委員正旭：好，這個就麻煩了，真的很需要用心管理。","再來這一部分是食品加工廠用的特定化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制？我們也知道，其實這一家工廠會用到工業用的雙氧水，我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒、清潔等等，可是後來就把它故意誤用在這個部分，這個我們無法理解。將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些好的登錄模式？就是本來應該做哪一些加工品的廠家，他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需的加工品的食材上面的時候就會有預警制度。意思就是他有可能要用到工業用，可是他也應該還有一些可以允許再加工使用的這些東西，如果剛開始有好的登錄制度，我們至少可以有一些管理的模式，比如說我們可以用分級管理的方法，第一級就是事前要申報，比如說高風險、具有漂白殺菌用途的，他突然進了大量或者是他用了很多量，可能是用在消毒，可是理論上他的消毒量應該是有限，這是第一級。第二級就是購買以後要備查，第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查。如果我們事先就能夠掌握好這種用品登錄的量，至少我們可以讓它有機會就可以觸動我們的警示。另外就是建立工業原料採購比對系統，當它出現異常的時候，我們就能夠即時去了解、去掌握現場的狀況，不知道這部分將來的機會如何？"],["姜署長至剛：這由我來稍微回答一下。的確，我們面對的化學物質非常、非常多樣化，所以現在環境部化學署針對化學物質有建置跨部會的化學物質資訊平臺，食藥署去對接他們的話，我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向鏈結跨部會資訊系統，以及化學雲的選定化學物質，在選定的一些原則裡面，其實有一部分是食品業者可疑廠商的篩選。剛才委員特別提到，對於特定的廠商特定的需求，在不同等級化學物質採購及流向的部分，我覺得我們的確可以進一步去做。過去我們針對這部分，其實就已經有盯住62項過去在食品安全上面有疑慮的化學物質，這次的H2O2的部分，其實是允許的食品添加物，只是業者用到了工業級的。所以如何去做工業級跟食品級，在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾稽，我想是很重要的，我們會持續努力。"],["王委員正旭：好。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員簡單說明。我們現在要跟環境部化學署去努力的大概是兩種勾稽方式：一種是我們並沒有公告可以作為添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品，因為化學品就是用這兩種，這一種我們要嚴格的監測，不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭；第二種是同時有不同等級的，像這一次是它本身有食品級跟工業級的化學品，這一種又是另外一種管理方式。我們去盤點一下在公告可使用的化學添加物裡面，哪一些是同時有工業等級，這個就是另外一種要監測的部分。所以大概就是兩個我們要去處理的，把它分開啦！"],["王委員正旭：好，這一部分我等一下也會請教許主任。","再過來是有關於建立夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度，請許主任稍等一下。其實我們也知道，這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市，因為他剛好就是設在寧夏夜市的這一位負責人。我們也看到目前到臺灣的觀光客幾乎有八成都會去夜市消費，或者是去體會一下臺灣特有的文化。事實上，寧夏夜市用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心，所以碰到這件事情的時候，他很快的也做了一些公布、採取一些重要的措施，包括進貨廠商名單的確認，還有啟動QR Code食材來源檢驗機制，強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等。我們將來是不是有機會可以透過各個不同的部會、透過食安辦以及地方政府，包括經濟部，來處理夜市攤商溯源標章，鼓勵大家來申請？這樣對民眾、對觀光客來講都是一個保障。所以不應該只是夜市的自發自律，而是需要走向制度化。"],["許主任輔：好，我回去之後就會跟各部會研議，我想這是一個很好的制度。其實也不是只有臺北市的寧夏夜市有這個需要，全臺灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子的情況。如果是一個鼓勵的方法，業者願意配合的，我們有一個平臺或怎麼樣他可以來做，然後相互信賴，這是可行的，我們後續會很積極研議並且來做，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩許主任。","再來是有關於利用科學付諸食品的安全行動，不曉得大家知不知道世界食品安全日是在哪一天？"],["許主任輔：6月7號。"],["王委員正旭：這邊有寫到是在6月7號，其實今年想要訴諸的就是science in action，也就是針對食品安全，是要透過科學的方式來保障所有的民眾，不管是在哪裡的民眾，包括臺灣都能夠有一個安全的基本保障。科學本身除了具有能力可以保障進步以外，對於安全也是非常重要的。這邊想要請教許主任，其實在112年審計部就對於如何針對化學雲在處理的過程當中有缺漏的部分……我們也知道環境部化學署主管化學雲，可是其他相關的部會，包括衛福部、農業部、經濟部等等，在那個過程裡面都有出現一些缺漏以及需要再進一步處理的地方，已經兩年過去了，這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善？"],["許主任輔：其實這一些資料都是各部會給環境部的，也就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料。所以如果有缺漏的話，那麼分為兩種：一個是欄位就沒有設，我們這禮拜其實就有會議，我會去列管這個項目；第二種是有欄位，但資料是空白的，那我們就會回到它當列管的部會，去了解這一筆很重要的資料怎麼會沒有？像業者資料或者是品項的項目欄位怎麼可以是空白？這兩個分工是不一樣的，缺欄位的我們去補上來，而欄位裡面有空白的，就請部會自己去補上來，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：我們了解食安真的是一個非常重要的體系、架構，科學可以幫助我們把食安做好，食品安全的風險分析就包括風險評估、風險溝通及風險管理，這需要一系列的科學來做一個好的決策過程。所以為什麼他會用science in action？就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好，當然化學添加物的誤用也是其中的一部分，所以很期待食安辦許主任這邊可以繼續努力把這件事情做好。"],["許主任輔：好，是的。"],["王委員正旭：其實今天想要跟衛福部及許主任討論的是如何精進食品業者相關的規範，這個剛剛我們已經提過了；另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證；最後是真的需要好的科學，一直在講AI怎麼來導入、以後等等的方式。我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的食品安全，大家來一起努力，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，部長及主任請回。","我們現在來處理臨時提案，計有一案，請宣讀。","臨時提案","針對檢調破獲百威公司違法使用工業雙氧水，並封存大量問題產品，但兩地衛生局後續在市面抽驗（針對過氧化氫篩檢）的結果卻全數合格（陰性）。表示問題大腸已在市面消化完畢。這樣的情況令人驚恐！","爰提案要求衛福部盡速查明流向，於一個月內向衛環委員會提交專案報告敘明流向，追究相關責任，並檢討防堵食安疑慮事件再度發生。","提案人：蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍　　王育敏　　盧縣一"],["主席：請問針對本案，行政單位有無意見？"],["姜署長至剛：召委及蘇委員。針對這項臨時提案，食藥署建議是否可以將第二段「爰提案要求衛福部盡速查明流向，於一個月內向衛環委員會提交專案報告……」中之「專案報告」修正為「書面報告」？因為今天專案的部分我們做了進一步說明，所以建議修正為「書面報告敘明流向，並檢討相關通報及查核作業程序，防堵食安疑慮事件再度發生。」是不是可以按照這樣做一些修改？以上。"],["主席：請提案委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：第一段後面「表示問題大腸已在市內消化完畢」，是被吃光了，還是……"],["姜署長至剛：並沒有完全，我們封存的有1萬2,604噸，其中還有145……"],["石部長崇良：他說現場封存起來的是1萬2,604公斤，這個是沒有流出去的，是封存起來的；另外，已經賣出去但還在下游廠商那裡、我們趕快下架的，是2,430公斤；真正已經賣到消費者那邊的是784公斤，目前的流向完全掌握清楚是這樣。另外，不是這家廠商出去的，我們還有擴大市面的抽驗，目前驗起來也都沒有殘留的H2O2（雙氧水）。"],["蘇委員清泉：那就照他們修改的，同意。"],["主席：好，提案委員接受你們建議的修改文字，臨時提案就照這樣的文字修正後通過，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝。"],["主席：臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請盧縣一委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc5bda8db473fe141b85f90000f7f2f0aba407684b3aac859039c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:12:09 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所以我們剛才講的從上游的更精準的監測到中下游的這些下游的部分的這些提防的加高跟進入的輸進那個水道的輸進的部分是當作第一優先那這個部分在經濟部水利署的部分所以你們要趕快規劃去做"},{"start":109.191,"end":138.693,"text":"趕快做要先做好未來萬一又有什麼颱風來的時候的準備都要做好來好不好那我要問一下內政部那因為現在我們發生了這個災情那我們整個光復鄉的大同村還有那個太平村的一些低窪地區的災民受寵最大那我們也興建了這個住宅要來安置這些災民的需求但是在長久來講的話我們會不會有遷村的這個考量"},{"start":139.814,"end":156.376,"text":"跟委員報告本部目前根據國土署的同仁在現場的所做的調查那麼有相當的民眾他們希望有中繼宅大概有40戶左右那這個部分我們會盡力協助至於是否要遷村我們必須要尊重在地住民的意願"},{"start":157.157,"end":185.352,"text":"那根据在地住民的意愿我们去做一些调查那他们也要跟县府一起共同来讨论所以刚刚强调就是这个地方比较低洼那你的验射壶的话未来不可能说有没有可能说整个等到水干掉之后的话你把它用爆破的方式把这个泥土泥沙都载走之后不会有个验射壶还是未来就有这个验射壶如果有这个验射壶存在的话我们担心它整个霸体够坚固吗我们担心又有"},{"start":186.332,"end":202.983,"text":"這個豪大雨來的時候這水的沖流崩塌下游的居民怎麼辦這個統統考慮進去好不好好 謝謝那因為說現在現社會在全台灣被觀測的除了現在花蓮地方還有新竹的這個太岡溪對不對"},{"start":204.484,"end":222.178,"text":"對 太岡溪現在部分大概它的映射湖的水蓄量的話大概4.8萬噸大概相當於20座的游泳池至少在你們監測就是還有危險的風險嘛 對不對有危險風險你們有沒有考慮可能就是罷頂降蛙或者是抽水"},{"start":222.438,"end":242.105,"text":"不過因為以現在的這些蓄水量的部分的時候因為它已經持續在溢流所以它全部如果說全部水流出來的話我們預估大概是會讓河道的水增加20到40公分所以它不會影響到整個附近的一個居民所以我們會持續的去關心因為一般的"},{"start":242.785,"end":260.672,"text":"映射壺通常都會在大好雨的時候會把一些它的原來崩落的這些碎石去沖開用這種方式是最單純的方式所以我們會持續的監控你要記得一件事情因為台灣還是有地震地震的時候整個我們說宜山都有可能是山崩"},{"start":261.761,"end":281.422,"text":"落實 都會造成這個驗射壺如果說整個地震來的時候這驗射壺的整個壩體是否穩固都是我們堪慮的問題所以現在有觀測的你們要加強監測不要再發生我跟委員報告現在台灣有可能造成驗射壺的這些區位的盤點大概8000多個區位"},{"start":282.683,"end":306.7,"text":"那这个区位的盘点以后我们分为几个一个是可能会有持续的落实的区位跟有一些是比较稳定的部分所以我们也会公告这个不要因为说它的蓄水量没那么多可是像台湾很多都知道豪大雨来的时候无法疏洪到出来的话会影响后面的灾情了解我们会持续的去监控这个要注意的我们"},{"start":309.442,"end":327.834,"text":"部長請回 我們請留下經濟部長跟台電的王總經理請王總經理部長 王總丹納斯颱風有2454座的電線桿"},{"start":332.717,"end":346.449,"text":"像是骨牌陣一樣倒塌所以本席今天就要跟你講一個電塔電塔電塔倒塌是不是就沒有電電塔是不是造成其他的什麼災害壓到"},{"start":349.83,"end":371.035,"text":"住宅壓到車輛壓到民宅壓到人對不對所以本席跟你提一下桃園市龍潭區我的龍柯山崎這高壓電塔討論這麼久了今天所有的民眾掛起白布條你們處不處理從第一條電桿"},{"start":373.962,"end":399.813,"text":"從榮坑你們要走電子湖到楊桐路要走到這個榮興這個路線裡面有四根電桿要遞上高架的方式這些地方非常危險我告訴你第一根電塔第一根電塔就是消理系的水源頭影響人民民眾的用水第二根電塔在哪裡"},{"start":401.445,"end":429.843,"text":"第二根電塔是最彎最彎的髮夾彎的地方民眾也很多住在那裡第三根電塔在哪裡底下都是民眾今天掛出來白布條寫著你寫著民眾住在山腳下電塔台電住在山頭他們的安全誰來保障台灣的地震土石山崩落石萬一壓到民宅呢"},{"start":431.829,"end":451.719,"text":"所以 我們民眾 我們的里長一直跟你懇求這條路線 十幾年了一直跟你們拜託 要來處理溝通在溝通 最後我請你們處理的時候你們說 里長我已經溝通完畢了 沒問題發包 動工 要來施工了"},{"start":453.01,"end":463.738,"text":"10月18號你們開的說明會是動工說明會你並沒有在會前之前要走這條路線之前開工廳會跟民眾來講通通沒有民眾生命財產的安全你放在哪裡所以你看看這圖圖看看他們掛的白布條里長我給你建議三條路線那本席在這邊具體告訴你"},{"start":480.236,"end":492.622,"text":"有解決的方案可以地下化就是我們從榮科從這邊拉出電來走電子湖走陽桶再從這邊走六杠寮到友達地下化總經理這個問題一定要解決不要告訴我你發包你就要動工停止開工解決這個問題把人民的生命財產放在眼裡好好討論好不好"},{"start":510.919,"end":534.729,"text":"包委員 包委員現在做的這一條線路是桃竹苗的大細股計畫的其中一環我知道大細股計畫我知道這條拉電拉給龍科從竹科拉到龍科 龍科拉過來最後在龍險變電所 對不對有替代道路我現在告訴你一條路6米寬 又直又寬 你不走"},{"start":535.851,"end":564.74,"text":"你要走個有山坡的 有高壓電塔要過好山坡上面那整個大髮夾彎欸路線要走得更長為什麼不能走個安全能對人民 民眾有保障的路線呢跟委員報告 這一題齁我想我們會再持續跟 持續已經十幾年了現在發報了所以總經理 在這邊答應我沒有討論清楚 沒有協調清楚不准動工好不好"},{"start":566.097,"end":583.952,"text":"這個我們會再持續溝通不准動工你要在這邊保證好不好因為所有的事情在做的過程一定是要和諧嘛我們一定會再持續那也會再請委員還有在當地的委員再為溝通清楚路線不明民眾抗議的情況之下不准動工謝謝謝謝呂毅林委員的資訊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":998,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時12分）謝謝主席，請龔部長、陳部長，還有內政部的董次長。"],["主席：我們請兩位部長、一位次長備詢，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：呂委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長、次長，花蓮的馬太鞍溪堰塞湖我們討論這麼久了，現在最重要的就是要在災害來臨之前要未雨綢繆，做好萬全的準備，災害發生的時候，我們要及時的來救助、支援。現在我們看到堰塞湖的情形，有很多種的作法，但是我們想請教的是現在討論這麼久了，你們有沒有擔心萬一形成二次堰塞湖，這個風險會有多高？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，堰塞湖如果照現在的雨量跟情況，它往下游的流水是穩定的溢流，但是它的邊坡仍持續有零星的崩塌，其實現在比較擔心的是可能……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們就要在水源頭來解決啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，因為它的壩體太大，然後現在也不穩定，所以我們先持續的監控，其實現在擔心的是地震的時候是不是有可能又有更大的……"],["呂委員玉玲：這些情況都要考慮進去啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在最重要的就是，你要找到適合設置緊急溢洪道的地方來排水吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們剛才講，從上游更精準的監測到中下游堤防的加高跟水道的疏濬是第一優先，這個部分經濟部水利署已經在做了。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們要趕快規劃去做，趕快做。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：要先做好，未來萬一又有颱風來的時候，都要做好準備，好不好？","接著我要問一下內政部，因為現在發生了災情，光復鄉大同村、太平村一些低窪地區的災民受創最大，那我們也興建了住宅要來安置這些災民，但是長久來講，會不會有遷村的考量？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，本部目前根據國土署同仁在現場所做的調查，有相當的民眾希望有中繼宅，大概有40戶左右，這個部分我們會盡力協助。至於是否要遷村，我們必須要尊重在地住民的意願，根據在地住民的意願，我們去做一些調查，他們也要跟縣府一起來討論。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛強調的就是這個地方比較低窪，堰塞湖未來有沒有可能等水乾掉之後，你用爆破的方式把泥沙都載走？如果未來還是有堰塞湖存在，我們擔心它整個壩體不夠堅固，我們擔心又有豪大雨來的時候，它會不會受到水的沖流崩塌，那下游的居民怎麼辦？請把這些通通考慮進去，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為現在全臺灣被觀測的堰塞湖，除了花蓮以外，還有新竹泰崗溪，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：現在泰崗溪堰塞湖的蓄水量大概是4.8萬噸，相當於20座的游泳池，所以我們評估……"],["呂委員玉玲：至少在你們監測就是還有危險的風險，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：有危險的風險，你們有沒有考慮可能壩頂降挖或者是抽水？"],["陳部長駿季：不過因為以現在蓄水量，因為它已經持續在溢流，所以如果全部的水流出來的話，我們預估大概會讓河道的水增加20到40公分，它不會影響到附近的居民，我們會持續的去關心，因為一般的堰塞湖通常都會在大豪雨的時候把一些原來崩落的碎石沖開，用這種方式是最單純的方式，我們會持續的監控。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你要記得一件事情，因為臺灣還是有地震，地震的時候，移山都有可能，山崩、落石都會造成堰塞湖，如果地震來的時候，堰塞湖整個壩體是否穩固都是堪慮的問題，所以現在有觀測的，你們要加強監測。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：不要再發生二次的……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，現在臺灣有可能造成堰塞湖區位的盤點，大概八千多個，這些區位盤點以後，我們分為幾個，一個是可能會有持續落石的區位，跟有一些是比較穩定的，我們也會公告……"],["呂委員玉玲：不要因為它的蓄水量沒那麼多……"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們會綜合……"],["呂委員玉玲：現在臺灣很多都是豪大雨來的時候，水無法從疏洪道出來的話，會造成後面的災情。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我們會持續的去監控，然後會去……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，這個要注意，部長請回。請經濟部部長留下，並請台電的王總經理。","部長、王總，丹娜絲颱風有2,454座的電線桿像是骨牌一樣倒塌，所以本席今天要跟你講電塔，電塔倒塌是不是就沒有電？電塔是不是會造成其他的災害？壓到住宅、壓到車輛、壓到民宅、壓到人，對不對？所以本席跟你提一下桃園市龍潭區龍科三期的高壓電塔，討論這麼久了，今天所有的民眾掛起白布條，你們處不處理？從龍科你們要走店子湖到陽銅路，要走到龍新路，這個路線你們有4座電塔要採地上高架的方式，這些地方非常危險，我告訴你，第一座電塔就是霄裡溪的水源頭，影響民眾的用水；第二座電塔在哪裡？第二座電塔在最彎、最彎髮夾彎的地方，也有很多民眾住在那裡；第三座電塔在哪裡？底下都是民眾，今天民眾掛出白布條寫著「民眾住在山腳下，電塔、台電住在山頭」，他們的安全誰來保障？臺灣的地震、土石、山崩、落石，萬一壓到民宅呢？這條路線十幾年了，我們的民眾、里長一直跟你懇求、一直跟你們拜託要來處理，溝通再溝通，最後我請你們處理的時候，你們說里長已經溝通完畢了，沒問題，而且已經發包要來施工了。10月18號你們開的說明會是動工說明會，並沒有在會前、要走這條路線之前開公聽會，跟民眾說明，通通沒有！你們把民眾的生命財產安全放在哪裡？所以你看看這張圖，看看他們掛的白布條，里長有跟你建議三條路線，但本席在這邊具體告訴你，有解決的方案，即可以地下化，就是我們從龍科拉出電來走店子湖、走楊銅，再從這邊走六槓寮到友達，地下化。總經理，這個問題一定要解決，不要告訴我發包了就要動工，停止開工，解決這個問題，把人民的生命財產放在眼裡，好好討論好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，現在做的這一條線路是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的其中一環，這個很重要……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道大矽谷計畫，我知道這是要拉電給龍科，從竹科拉到龍科，再從龍科拉過來，最後在龍顯變電所，對不對？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，沒有錯。"],["呂委員玉玲：有替代道路，我現在告訴你的那條路有6米寬，又直又寬，你不走，你要走有山坡的地方，高壓電塔要建在山坡上面，那整個是大髮夾彎，路線又走得更長，為什麼不能走個安全且對民眾有保障的路線呢？"],["王總經理耀庭：跟委員報告，這一題我想我們會再持續跟民眾溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：已經持續十幾年了，現在發包了，所以請總經理在這邊答應我，沒有討論清楚、沒有協調清楚，不准動工，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：這個我們會再持續溝通。"],["呂委員玉玲：不准動工，你要在這邊保證，好不好？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為所有的事情在做的過程一定是要和諧，我們一定會再持續……也再請委員和當地的議員……"],["呂委員玉玲：在未溝通清楚、路線不明、民眾抗議的情況之下，不准動工。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員的質詢，謝謝部長。","現在請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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凍結以後應該用多元的管道通知讓帳戶所有人可以很快速的得到這個資訊還有具體的原因到底是什麼並且可以通知他到底是因為太頻繁進出還是什麼樣的原因然後解鎖的步驟我覺得更應該明確的讓帳戶所有人知道然後解鎖的時間有一些解鎖時間甚至到兩三個月才有辦法再打開帳戶再可以使用"},{"start":124.108,"end":148.739,"text":"所以對很多人來說我可能只有這麼一個賬戶我可能牽涉到我可能要支付一些我使用的賬目的問題所以未來解鎖時間是不是應該再調整一下什麼是一個合理的時間範圍我覺得應該做溝通接下來第四點就是強化政策的溝通未來如何讓民眾知道高風險的交易型態降低被凍結的機率"},{"start":150.18,"end":167.765,"text":"這是以上我對於這個議題四點的建議我希望在短時間之內一個月之內請主委更明確化能公告給所有的人知道這一點可以嗎謝謝委員剛剛這個一二三四我初步看起來都非常有那個建設性除了第四個我也有小小的顧慮以外"},{"start":168.285,"end":190.525,"text":"沒關係你就回去檢討然後三個禮拜一個月之內公告給所有的民眾知道那第二個我要請問一下有關上市櫃公司未來包括我們徵集會有一個標準的評鑑制度這是我長期所關注我想主委非常清楚我們評鑑的指標有四大區塊我想我就不用再做贅述主委可能比我還要了解"},{"start":192.767,"end":210.875,"text":"當然這個評鑑現在也都讓所有上市商會公司非常的重視因為包括櫃買公司治理的指數這些評鑑其實現在外界都非常的重視所以就114年度我們公司治理的指標當中第4.3項我們必須揭露當年永續發展ESG具體的推動計畫跟實施的成效"},{"start":218.778,"end":241.012,"text":"當然ESG裡面我們有分六大項未來可以去努力的方向包括海洋保育、原鄉的一些合作產學合作、庇護工廠跟高齡友善、多元語言六大項指標那我是不是可以建議主委就是說未來我們可不可以增加一些評鑑的項目來更完善所謂的評鑑的一些內容"},{"start":242.273,"end":268.341,"text":"包括我长期在提的其实教育是百年的大忌我们目前全国在公立的高国中国小当中其实在921大地震之后我们全台湾在校舍的部分有超过50年其实有2200栋超过30年有8300栋这些都已经达到应该改建或者它很多它都是海沙的校舍"},{"start":269.221,"end":290.392,"text":"或者是他耐震的指數沒有達到那個標準但是我們有礙於我們現在經費其實都沒有辦法改建所以我非常期望就是說未來我們ESG永續的部分至少在公立的高國中國小未來我們是不是有可能在4.3項以下的範例加上投入教育部所定義的"},{"start":291.252,"end":302.746,"text":"公立的高中以下的學校老舊校舍的整建作為未來評鑑的項目之一我們有沒有機會朝向這樣的指標來做努力"},{"start":303.664,"end":325.217,"text":"我想委員我們也討論過我是個人是支持這個方向而且我們就我也去了解一下實務上我們過去也有好幾個案例都是做這件事情而且也列入到現在已經有案例已經完成的是列入在他們的報告也是列為加分事項"},{"start":325.717,"end":345.374,"text":"主委我想很多上市商會公司可能還不清楚原來這些也可以做因為我們現在大家都知道各縣市很多特別偏鄉它在經費上財源上是不足的所以針對很多學校應該改建老舊校舍改建海沙校舍的改建我們都希望加快腳步"},{"start":346.255,"end":374.242,"text":"那中央可以給藝術的財源也有限未來主要計畫這個主要計畫的項目到底可以協助多少都還不知道如果增加這永續的項目很清楚的名列在下面的話我相信很多上市商會公司他也很願意支持公部門校舍的改建所以這一塊我希望是很具體化的文字寫在寫的落實更清楚主委可不可以朝向這樣的方式去修正在4.3"},{"start":376.482,"end":402.732,"text":"我剛剛講過就是我支持這個方向因為主要是我覺得教育是一個在ESGS部分非常重要的區塊那我們講怎麼樣在現有的這個制度上面把這個類似這樣的範例可以把它放上去我想這部分我們朝這個方向來做只是他在檢討指標會一定的時程每年每年這樣我想朝向這個方向應該是可以所以我們下次檢討是什麼時候因為"},{"start":404.153,"end":420.305,"text":"因為上次講完以後他們會已經開完了今年這樣但是這個已經是在過去已經有案例所以其實今年也是能夠做所以我覺得我們就加強讓他們大家都很清楚知道其實過去已經有上市櫃公司已經我至少看到兩個例子都已經有做這件事情"},{"start":420.845,"end":423.667,"text":"好那主委我最後一個議題就是有關於我們純網營的部分那有關於純網營我們現在開放的部分因為純網營他的他目前他虧損的狀況其實非常嚴重大概虧損累積到85億那相較於同期在今年度跟去年度"},{"start":437.638,"end":465.397,"text":"相比年損也增加了20億左右那當然他營收目前只能靠利息跟手續費的收入但是我們觀察在包括在日本他開放的項目其實經營非常的多我也很高興看到主委對於未來政策的鬆綁那目前我們未來是就是說未來業務是可以先不要先不要提計劃事辦的項目我們可以做一些解編那未來就是說主委您對於網營的開放的部分"},{"start":467.779,"end":482.296,"text":"除了你目前所宣示的之外未来在政策辅导上法规的松绑上您还有什么样的不同的做法我们可以期待我想就是当时我们开放这个网络金融包括我们即将开放的"},{"start":483.157,"end":497.902,"text":"那個數位保險公司都一樣我們是支持這個數位金融因為市場上需要多元化 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謝主席我們請石安辦來 請徐主任還有請衛福部部長石部長文豪我想請教就是說彰化算是一個農工大縣那尤其是在南彰化這邊就是種稻米蔬菜的非常的多那彰化原本的那個民道大學"},{"start":32.674,"end":46.066,"text":"他有一個農藥殘留質樸快檢實驗室最主要是服務整個彰化地區有15項就是彰化縣政府這邊有特別就是說有15項比較可能會有農藥殘留的這些蔬菜"},{"start":53.573,"end":79.537,"text":"这个免费啦就是免费去对就免费检查这样子啦那其他的部分可能就是有一些费用也会比较便宜那我想请教因为我觉得这个也是一个源头管理就是说如果说我们可以在第一时间把这些蔬果可以透过这样的一个农药残留的一个实验室可以检验出来"},{"start":80.017,"end":95.849,"text":"那你銷售到市場方面其實就可以民眾會消費者會比較安心所以我想問一下就是說除了彰化這邊有這樣的一個這個農藥殘留的一個實驗室之外那其他縣市有沒有我所知道在農業部這樣的一個"},{"start":98.351,"end":120.018,"text":"直普快簡的網絡大概有十幾個實驗室各縣市各區域都有那我是不是也可以就是說除了跟農業部這邊之外我們應該也要一個跨部會讓農民可以更容易透過這樣的一個"},{"start":121.618,"end":141.631,"text":"它的蔬果透過這樣的一個實驗室的一個檢查系統對 它很容易去拿到這邊去做檢查那未來就是說像這個我們彰化這邊的這個蔬菜水果你只要有這個檢查那農業部會有一個標章你到北農的話就可以直接通關也不需要再去做額外的一個檢查"},{"start":142.011,"end":158.701,"text":"所以我覺得說針對這部分應該也要一個跨部會就是說應該源頭管理源頭管理讓農民他的蔬菜水果可以更容易把他的產品拿到這個地方去做一個檢驗消費者也可以更安心"},{"start":159.521,"end":178.189,"text":"跟委員說我們除了剛講十幾個點之外到現在有五部的那個貨櫃車這樣子的就是活動式的在產季的時候就可以開到現場去但是我們現在大概都跟農會去合作像我們今年底就可能會去連路跟"},{"start":179.252,"end":191.173,"text":"跟屏東的就在產地的時候開一輛開兩輛去那這五輛車現在有一些的是請法人有一些請學校像嘉義大學台大等等的就來幫忙"},{"start":192.611,"end":221.786,"text":"微運這樣子那我想委員剛剛的這個提議我回去後就會納入開會中的討論請兩個部會共同演繹這樣子其實就是說這個實驗室就是說知道說其實它是很快可能幾分鐘的時間就可以檢驗15分鐘的時間就可以檢驗出來像事前做的所以就確定這一批都安全了Safe然後我們就可以去賣"},{"start":223.326,"end":244.913,"text":"所以我覺得如果可以在這個前端就做這樣子的一個檢驗的話其實對農民來講也是好的因為他可以更節省時間就是說他的產品到北農是一個保證有這樣的一個標章然後也是一個保證所以我覺得你們應該也要跟農業部這邊有一個跨部會的"},{"start":245.653,"end":263.417,"text":"就是說讓農民可以更容易把他的產品來做一個檢驗然後得到這樣的一個標章我覺得這個應該可以來推廣推動 好不好那接下來我想請教就是說在今年五月份的時候彰化發生一個重大的一個食安醜聞就是說這個豬排改標"},{"start":268.358,"end":292.465,"text":"豬排改標那我現在要請問就是說現在網路真的非常的快速就不論是團購網購在那個網路上面你要買吃的買用的都非常的方便那今年五月份的這一個就是說可能透過網路這個廠商他透過網路可能去收購一些過期的這個豬排"},{"start":294.085,"end":314.887,"text":"那回來之後再自己改標可是為什麼會被發現是因為原本製造這個豬排的那個食品廠他覺得說我們這一款這個豬排已經停產了就是這一款的豬排已經停產那為什麼還在市面上在網路上面販售所以這樣子才爆發出來的那我想請教就是說未來"},{"start":316.528,"end":339.72,"text":"因為這個不是政府自己不是我們食藥署這邊自己發現的是這個原本的食品廠自己發現的那未來像這樣子的話我們要怎麼樣去杜絕因為現在很多網路團購網購真的非常方便其實你們也沒有那個人力去杜絕這個JP食品到底是安不安全或者是他的保存"},{"start":340.7,"end":361.948,"text":"是不是有經過冷鏈冷凍或者是已經在這個常溫已經過了多久其實你們也自己沒辦法去做這樣子的一個一個檢驗檢查那未來我覺得在網路上面販售的這些東西其實我覺得你們應該要去一個再去想一個方法怎麼樣讓所有的消費者"},{"start":362.728,"end":387.178,"text":"第一個你買到的東西是安心的因為尤其是節日的時候過年過節很多人會在網路上面買烤肉的東西這個肉品或者是海鮮那像這樣子的話如果我們自己本身在第一線第一時間就沒辦法發現或者是即使是發現那這個廠商他也會再透過人頭"},{"start":388.038,"end":411.313,"text":"可能又改另外一間公司又開始販售所以我覺得說你們應該要去想一下怎麼要去杜絕這樣的一個類似的狀況那你們要怎麼做好我想到的啦就是說因為這個剛前幾位委員也有問到說跟網路平台特別大陸那邊進來的那我們一個是從資訊的面就是說"},{"start":417.916,"end":440.146,"text":"從電腦跟資訊上面怎麼去比對然後提供我們預警的資料第二個就是剛講到法規面的怎麼我們實務上面去強化做到很有效的能夠管理跟嚇阻說這一類的廠商他又要這樣做很容易被我們看到然後我們是有力去處理他的可是他如果又改一個公司名其實你"},{"start":440.766,"end":467.462,"text":"你也很難去抓而且它這個東西其實在銷售很快可能幾天的時間就銷完了你即使要去查要去找它的樣就是你們要去追回來其實也都很困難那另外一個有可能未來它如果是從國外直接進來然後販售出去其實兩三天的時間其實你也沒辦法查所以我覺得說針對這部分在網路上販售"},{"start":470.184,"end":481.835,"text":"這個海鮮 食品或者是其他那種食品類的我覺得應該要有一套的方法怎麼樣可以杜絕類似的這樣的一個狀況在發生"},{"start":484.466,"end":504.555,"text":"謝謝委員提出這個漏洞不過我們會持續強化這個十萬五環每一個環節如何更精進不過呢對於這一種明知故犯這個都是明知故犯他會去改標一定是明知故犯對這種明知故犯的一旦抓到我們就是建立絕對是嚴懲讓他破產讓他"},{"start":507.341,"end":526.861,"text":"大家不敢再去鋌而走險了就是說你隨便就是罰我查了過去我們5年查的這個食安事件350幾件那麼總共才開罰2500萬所以最高的一件也不過所以就不怕了不怕嘛所以我們要建立的就是"},{"start":528.042,"end":541.15,"text":"這個食安每一件都是重大我們看起來這個人民的日常生活都會息息相關所以只要是這種蓄意的明知故犯蓄意的這種不良廠商絕對是重罰"},{"start":542.891,"end":559.208,"text":"未來都是採取一樣的這個模式來不再姑息啦好 那我希望說部長針對這一部分真的網路上販售的東西其實都非常的快速那針對這一部分我覺得你們應該也要有一些因應的方式因為"},{"start":560.109,"end":577.734,"text":"這東西要出去一兩天就賣完了就吃到肚子餓了你要炒其實也很難炒所以應該有因應目前的這個狀況要有更精進的方式來杜絕好不好好 我們來研究謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時4分）謝謝主席。我們請食安辦。"],["主席：請許主任。"],["黃委員秀芳：還有請衛福部部長。"],["主席：石部長。"],["許主任輔：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，彰化算是一個農工大縣，尤其是在南彰化這邊，種稻米、蔬菜的非常多。彰化原本的明道大學，它有一個農藥殘留質譜快檢實驗室，最主要是服務整個彰化地區，彰化縣政府特別提到有15項比較可能會有農藥殘留的蔬菜，就是免費去……"],["許主任輔：會補助。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，可以免費檢查，其他的部分可能就是有一些費用，也會比較便宜。"],["許主任輔：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，因為我覺得這也是一個源頭管理，如果我們在第一時間把這些蔬果透過這樣的一個農藥殘留的實驗室可以檢驗出來，那麼銷售到市場方面，其實民眾或消費者也會比較安心。所以我想問一下，除了彰化這邊有這樣的一個農藥殘留的實驗室之外，其他縣市有沒有？"],["許主任輔：我所知道在農業部這樣的質譜快檢的網絡，大概現在有十幾個實驗室，各縣市、各區域都有。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我是不是也可以建議，除了跟農業部這邊之外，我們應該也要有一個跨部會的機制，讓農民的蔬果可以更容易透過這樣一個實驗室的檢查……"],["許主任輔：對，系統。"],["黃委員秀芳：他很容易拿到這邊去做檢查，未來像我們彰化這邊的蔬菜水果，只要有這個檢查，農業部會有一個標章，到北農的話，就可以直接通關，也不需要再去做額外的一個檢查。"],["許主任輔：對，綠色……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得針對這部分應該也要跨部會，應該源頭管理，讓農民的蔬菜、水果等產品可以更容易拿到這個地方去做檢驗，消費者也可以更安心。"],["許主任輔：跟委員說明，我們除了剛剛講十幾個點之外，到現在有五部貨櫃車活動式的，在產季的時候就可以開到現場去，但是我們現在大概都跟農會合作。像我們今年底蓮霧可能會去屏東，在產地的時候開一輛、開兩輛去。這五輛車現在有一些是請法人，有一些請學校，像嘉義大學、臺大等等來幫忙維運。我想委員剛剛的這一個提議，我回去後就會納入開會中的討論，請兩個部會共同研議這樣子，好不好？"],["黃委員秀芳：對，這個實驗室，我知道其實它是很快，可能幾分鐘的時間就可以檢驗……"],["許主任輔：15分鐘。"],["黃委員秀芳：15分鐘的時間就可以檢驗出來……"],["許主任輔：上市前做的。所以就確定這一批都安全了，然後就可以去賣，希望這樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，所以我覺得如果可以在前端就做這樣子的一個檢驗，其實對農民來講也是好的。"],["許主任輔：好的。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為可以更節省時間，他的產品到北農是一個保證，有這樣的一個標章也是一個保證。所以我覺得你們應該也要跟農業部這邊有一個跨部會的合作，讓農民可以更容易把他的產品來做一個檢驗，然後得到這樣的一個標章，我覺得這個應該可以來推廣，好不好？"],["許主任輔：好，我們來推動。"],["黃委員秀芳：接下來我想請教，在今年5月份的時候，彰化發生一個重大的食安醜聞，也就是豬排改標。我現在要請問，現在網路真的非常的快速，不論是團購、網購，在網路上面，你要買吃的、買用的都非常的方便。今年5月份這個廠商透過網路可能去收購一些過期的豬排，回來之後再自己改標，可是為什麼會被發現？是因為原本製造豬排的食品廠，他們覺得這一款豬排已經停產了，為什麼還在市面上、在網路上面販售？所以這樣子才爆發出來的。我想請教，因為這不是政府發現、不是食藥署這邊自己發現的，是原本的食品廠自己發現的，未來像這樣的問題，我們要怎麼去杜絕？因為現在網路團購、網購真的非常方便，而你們也沒有那個人力去查察這一批食品到底安不安全，或者是它的保存是不是有經過冷鏈、冷凍，或者是已經在常溫過了多久，你們自己是沒有辦法去做這樣的檢驗、檢查。所以我覺得未來在網路上販售的這些東西，你們應該要再去想一個方法，第一，如何讓所有消費者買到的東西是安心的？尤其是過年過節的時候，很多人會在網路上買肉品或海鮮，如果我們自己本身沒有辦法在第一線、第一時間發現，或者即使發現，這個廠商也可能透過人頭改為另外一間公司又開始販售，所以我覺得你們應該思考一下，要如何杜絕類似這樣的一個狀況。"],["許主任輔：了解。"],["黃委員秀芳：那你們要怎麼做呢？"],["許主任輔：因為剛剛前幾位委員也有問到網路平台販售的食品，特別是從大陸那邊進來的，第一，在資訊面上，從電腦和資訊上去比對，提供我們預警的資料。第二，就是剛剛講到的法規面上，在實務上如何強化，做到有效的管理和嚇阻，讓這一類廠商又要這樣做時，可以很容易被我們看到，然後我們是有力去處理的它，希望從……"],["黃委員秀芳：可是如果他又改公司名，你也很難抓到，而且這些東西的銷售很快，可能幾天時間就銷完了，即使你要去查或要去找它的樣品，就是要去追回來，也都很困難。另外，如果是從國外直接進來再販售出去，其實兩、三天的時間你也沒辦法查，所以針對在網路上販售海鮮、肉品或者其他食品類，我覺得應該要有一套方法，杜絕類似的狀況再度發生。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員提出這個漏洞。我們會持續強化食安五環，讓每一個環節都更精進。不過，這種會去改標的一定是明知故犯，對於這種明知故犯的業者，一旦抓到，我們就是建立絕對嚴懲機制，讓他破產，讓大家不敢再去鋌而走險，而不是隨便罰罰。我查了過去5年查到的食安事件，三百五十幾件中，總共才開罰2,500萬，最高的一件也不過……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以他們根本就不怕啊！"],["石部長崇良：對，他們不怕。所以我們要建立每一件食安事件都是重大案件的觀念，因為這個跟人民的日常生活息息相關。所以只要是蓄意、明知故犯的不良廠商，絕對是重罰，未來都會採取一樣的模式，不再姑息。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，因為網路上販售東西其實都是非常快速，針對這部分，我覺得你們應該要有一些因應方式，因為東西可能一、兩天就賣完了、吃進肚子裡了，要查其實也很難查。因應目前這種狀況，你們應該要有更精進的方式來杜絕，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：好，我們來研究，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王正旭委員。","委員會在這邊公告：盧縣一委員詢答結束之後，我們來處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcb246cdfcaafaecea85f90000f7f2f0aba407684b3aac859032eaf49779187fd55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:01:28 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谢谢主席我想要请龚部长请龚部长"},{"start":20.587,"end":43.826,"text":"雖然我們今天在討論的是丹納市颱風那我必須要講一下就是說我們彰化在這一次的丹納市颱風裡面有非常多的排水那以及在去年的颱風當中也有像這一次一樣有可能會滿堤或溢堤的相關的排水設施那我知道因為我上會期去已經考察了非常多的排水相關的設施"},{"start":45.007,"end":65.859,"text":"水利署跟我說要放在四年四千億的這個特別預算裡面那我想要了解四年一千億的特別預算不是特別預算是公務預算所以明年就會編所以明年會編嗎所以是確定會編嗎因為我要確定因為如果沒有辦法編的話那那些因為颱風所"},{"start":67.72,"end":95.168,"text":"就是說所影響的排水設施就應該要納在這一次的特別風災的那個條例裡面來修理那如果是下個會就是明年度的預算的話那是不是一定要把我們去會堪的那些排水設施都放在相關的那個預算裡面所以為什麼會編四年一千億就是把整個台灣重要的部分全部都會統整的來做一次性的處理 對"},{"start":96.628,"end":119.524,"text":"對 那就必須要記得那還有現在大家在說 回答要落腳新售的T17 T18好像會不會破局 你說你說不會 他們很喜歡那裡這個要看市政府跟這個新售他們談的結果好像就是說市政府已經要發函給新售要去談這個事情"},{"start":121.069,"end":140.301,"text":"所以你不是在盤點全台灣的土地嗎你有沒有放我們彰化的你有沒有盤一下我們彰化的我們彰化有什麼土地可以用因為這個就是NVIDIA它還是有期待的一些條件那我們會根據它的條件來做盤點"},{"start":142.291,"end":158.307,"text":"所以對啊那有什麼條件一定要在台北是嗎有嗎他有講嗎沒有他有講說這些條件請不要對外公開不能公開那所以你有沒有盤點有沒有盤點彰化的你有沒有根據條件盤點一下彰化的 陸續在盤點但是我們還是要"},{"start":165.647,"end":173.737,"text":"比較滿足他們的這個期待的條件你都講不出來我看應該是在台北是不是我們彰化沒希望那彰化可以有什麼"},{"start":174.958,"end":199.403,"text":"相關的咧對不對因為像現在美國在談判裡面他提到了就是希望說三奈米以下先進製程的這個晶片有百分之四十以上或者是五十在在美國生產嘛那我想請問喔那一天那個政府院長他去美國說五五分不會那會不會六四"},{"start":200.492,"end":221.499,"text":"會不會 還是7.3不是 沒有辦法去預料說因為美國將來的需求量多大這個要預估我們也不知道嘛所以馬上去講5.5分或6.4分這個沒有辦法去確認這件事情你覺得會不會有可能那我們只能確定的就是說在台灣的這個台積電的已經宣布的這個11條新的這個11座經驗場"},{"start":226.874,"end":239.01,"text":"包括台中四座嘛那高雄可能是五座或六座嘛那还有竹科嘛这个是最先进的那即便是台积电已经在美国宣布的部分1650亿是六座嘛所以"},{"start":242.134,"end":263.089,"text":"台湾的这个产能产量远比而且时程上也远比美国的要快非常多因为美国的部分他第二场也许到明年才会开始量产2028年可能三个场才会开始量产但我们不一样我们现在很快那个高雄厂已经要开始量产了"},{"start":264.741,"end":288.857,"text":"可是像你們現在在講的就是政府院長回來的記者會講到的G2G這個部分有沒有你們提到的相關性我覺得我們一定要對外說明你這樣不說明的話業者也會很就是說因為你提到的G2G或者是聚酪型的把我們的我們的足科的經驗整個搬到美國去那會不會加速"},{"start":289.977,"end":304.823,"text":"會不會加速不是搬過去啦是把這個經驗分享給美國啦也是事實上使用這樣的聚酪也是我們台灣廠商那為什麼剛才提到說對 可是台灣廠商會擔心會不會加速"},{"start":307.691,"end":323.966,"text":"你知道嗎 速度加快啊本來也許就是說它的進程沒那麼快的可是當你是聚落型或者是整個竹科共同去的時候會不會加速因為我們的原則一定是先是立足台灣才是佈局全球"},{"start":324.686,"end":344.301,"text":"所以立足台湾我们产生的这个在台湾产生的这个聚落效应是发展的非常好所以也持续在发生当中我刚刚提到了很多的这些产能包括半导体的产能持续在增加当中所以它这个是力量的往外延伸不是把台湾的能量移出去不是的"},{"start":345.241,"end":362.709,"text":"那當然就是我們的廠商在做全球布局我們當然希望我們的廠商在那個地方可以營運順利賺錢因為母公司畢竟在台灣它在那個地方可以賺錢的話也會充實我們母公司的能量所以我們當然也不希望說它這邊布局以後它失敗"},{"start":363.729,"end":376.276,"text":"那會影響到我們公司啊所以就是說所以他赴美投資是用分公司還是子公司不一定就是通常有些是用子公司啊那有沒有要做相關的規範"},{"start":378.284,"end":403.72,"text":"相關的規範他如果一定金額以上是要送到我們這個投審室來做審查的對不對要不要做相關的規範畢竟要維持台灣對於美國公司相關公司的這樣子的控制力嘛是不是不然他會不會就全部都全然的聽美國的就我們審查來講的話企業當然有企業的考量但是就我們審查來講我們第一個是國家"},{"start":404.68,"end":422.254,"text":"國家安全或有國家利益第二個是整體產業的利益這兩個是我們重要的審查的依據就是你做這個事情你會不會危害到國家安全你做這個事情會不會影響到我們整體產業的利益我提到的是你提到的是國家安全我提到的是產業的憂慮以及專家學者的憂慮對不對"},{"start":425.696,"end":449.282,"text":"這兩個同時都是要考量對 我是說大家會憂慮嘛過去我們所認為的矽頓是不是不在的那再來是不是會加速我們的整個半導體的供應鏈外移那這兩個我希望經濟部都能夠徹底的協助國內的廠商好不好不能讓我們整個半導體的供應鏈外移對 立足台灣是我們的最優先沒有錯"},{"start":451.155,"end":467.09,"text":"就是要讓半導體的供應鏈留在台灣不要加速外移好不好對 我們會擴大它的能量在台灣是不是不要加速外移我講的是大家擔心的是這一點好不好好好謝謝 給我幾分鐘我再問一下農業部長好 謝謝榮吉農業部長謝謝"},{"start":474.121,"end":488.396,"text":"委員好部長不好意思那個丹納市颱風之後對於農田尤其是就是那種根莖類的作物還有這些蔬菜作物他們產生非常大的影響那"},{"start":489.837,"end":506.322,"text":"農民在抱怨就是說根據政府所提供的補助都沒有辦法實質的請領以及得到實質的幫助這個部分能不能趕快協助因為這一次我相信在花蓮的風災當中也會受到相關的這樣子的問題嗎 是不是"},{"start":511.364,"end":526.003,"text":"我跟委員報告因為彰化的部分其實最大的影響在0708的大豪雨的部分然後有一些短期葉菜類的部分所以短期葉菜類因為它三個禮拜就可以復耕所以我們在第一時間也去做了這些公告"},{"start":526.443,"end":552.951,"text":"那您剛才委員說的他領不到的部分我們會再來瞭解看到底是哪一個環節出問題他們就是說申請不到啊他們去申請的也申請不到啊這個可能跟公所我們會再跟公所聯繫一下看看公所他遇到的個案是什麼樣子我們再來看怎麼樣的協助那我想要請問關稅談判之後有可能我們的蝴蝶蘭的大苗沒有辦法還維持零關稅的優惠那"},{"start":554.612,"end":580.314,"text":"那個業者他要出口的成本勢必會增加那我想請問如果業者要有沒有現在有沒有業者要赴美國去設廠我想美國市長他們現在在評估但是他們現在在評估就是在利用台塘在美國的這個5公頃的這些蘭花的這些生產基地當作他們一個中繼站就是他們的接地生產基地在台塘美國台塘的加州的廠"},{"start":580.954,"end":608.619,"text":"所以這個部分我們也積極的在協商第一個部分我們已經請台糖這塊地不要賣掉然後可以來做一些業者的這些中繼的這些接力生產基地然後我們也開始請業者做規劃如果業者願意利用這個廠做接力生產的時候那政府願意投入資金去協助他當地廠的設置設備的改善以符合業者的要求"},{"start":609.167,"end":631.633,"text":"所以如果業者想要到美國設廠你們會藉由台塘這塊土地來協助業者能在那裡生產蝴蝶蘭所需要的就是大苗小苗等等 是不是是 我們這個政策上我們大概已經確定但是一個前提就是業者一定要他自己籌組成有一個經營團隊來經營而不是由台塘經營的好 謝謝謝謝謝鳳委員 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":928,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時1分）謝謝主席。我想要請龔部長。"],["主席：請龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：龔部長好。雖然我們今天討論的是丹娜絲颱風，但我必須要講一下，我們彰化在這次的丹娜絲颱風裡面有非常多的排水設施，以及在去年的颱風當中也有像這一次一樣，有可能會滿堤或溢堤相關的排水設施。因為我上會期已經考察了非常多的排水相關設施，水利署跟我說要放在4年1,000億的特別預算裡面，那我想要了解，這4年1,000億的特別預算……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是特別預算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不是特別預算嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是公務預算。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是公務預算嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：所以明年就會編。"],["謝委員衣鳯：明年會編嗎？確定會編嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我要確定，如果沒有辦法編的話，那些因為颱風受影響的排水設施，就應該要納在這一次的特別風災條例裡面來修理。如果是明年度預算的話……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，縣市管河川……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是一定會把我們去會勘的那些排水設施都放在相關的預算裡面？"],["龔部長明鑫：會，所以為什麼會編4年1,000億，就是把整個臺灣重要的部分，全部統整地來做一次性的處理。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，那就必須要記得。","還有現在大家在說輝達要落腳新壽的T17、T18，會不會破局？你說不會，他們很喜歡那裡？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個要看市政府跟新壽談的結果，好像市政府已經要發函給新壽去談這個事情了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不是在盤點全臺灣的土地嗎？你有沒有放我們彰化的？你有沒有盤點一下我們彰化有什麼土地可以用？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為NVIDIA還是有他期待的一些條件，我們會根據它的條件來盤點，提供他參考。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊，那有什麼條件？一定要在臺北，是嗎？有嗎，他有講嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有。它有講說這些條件請不要對外公開。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不能公開？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你有沒有盤點彰化的？你有沒有根據條件盤點一下彰化的土地？"],["龔部長明鑫：陸續在盤點，但我們還是要滿足他們期待的條件。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你都講不出來，我看應該是在臺北，是不是？我們彰化沒希望了，那彰化可以有什麼啊？相關的呢？因為像現在美國談判裡面提到，希望3奈米以下先進製程的晶片有40%以上或者是50%在美國生產，我想請問，那一天鄭副院長去美國說不會五五分，那會不會六四分？還是七三分？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，沒有辦法去預料……因為美國將來的需求量多大，這個要預估，我們也不知道嘛，所以馬上去講五五分或六四分，沒有辦法去confirm這件事情。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你覺得會不會有可能？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們只能確定的就是，在臺灣的台積電已經宣布的11座新的晶圓廠，包括臺中4座，高雄可能是5座或6座，還有竹科，這個是最先進的，即便是台積電已經在美國宣布的部分，1,650億……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["龔部長明鑫：是6座，所以臺灣的產能、產量、時程上也遠比美國要快非常多，因為美國的部分，它第二廠也許到明年才會開始量產，2028年可能3個廠才會開始量產，當然我們不一樣，我們現在很快，高雄廠已經要開始量產了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是像你們現在講的，就是鄭副院長回來記者會講到的G2G這個部分，你們提到的相關性，我覺得我們一定要對外說明啊，你這樣不說明的話，業者也會很……因為你提到的G2G或者是聚落型的，把我們竹科的經驗整個搬到美國去，那會不會加速？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是搬過去啦！是把這個經驗分享給美國，事實上使用這樣的聚落也是我們臺灣廠商。那為什麼剛才提到G2G的部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是臺灣廠商會擔心會不會加速，你知道嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：加速的意思是？"],["謝委員衣鳯：速度加快啊，本來也許它的進程沒那麼快，可是當你是聚落型或者是整個竹科共同去的時候，會不會加速？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為我們的原則一定是先立足臺灣，然後才是布局全球，所以立足臺灣，我們在臺灣產生的聚落效應發展得非常好，也持續在發生當中，我剛剛提到了，很多這些產能包括半導體的產能持續在增加當中，所以這個是力量的往外延伸，不是把臺灣的能量移出去，不是的。","我們的廠商在做全球布局，我們當然希望廠商在那個地方可以營運順利賺錢啊！因為母公司畢竟在臺灣，它在那個地方可以賺錢的話，也會充實母公司的能量，所以我們當然也不希望說他這邊布局以後失敗，會影響到母公司，所以就政府來講……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以赴美投資是用分公司，還是子公司？"],["龔部長明鑫：不一定，通常有些是用子公司。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那有沒有做相關的規範？"],["龔部長明鑫：相關規範部分，如果一定金額以上是要送到投審司來做審查的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對不對？要不要做相關的規範？畢竟要維持臺灣對於在美國相關公司的控制力嘛，是不是？不然它會不會全然都聽美國的？"],["龔部長明鑫：企業當然有企業的考量，但是就我們審查來講，我們第一個是國家安全或國家利益，第二個是整體產業的利益，這兩個是我們重要的審查依據，就是你做這個事情會不會危害到國家安全，你做這個事情會不會影響到我們整體產業的利益。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你提到的是國家安全，我提到的是產業的憂慮以及專家學者的憂慮。"],["龔部長明鑫：這兩個同時都要考量。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我是說大家會憂慮嘛，過去我們所認為的矽盾是不是不在？再來是不是會加速我們整個半導體的供應鏈外移？這兩個我希望經濟部都能夠徹底地協助國內廠商，好不好？不能讓我們整個半導體的供應鏈外移。"],["龔部長明鑫：立足臺灣是我們的最優先沒有錯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是要讓半導體的供應鏈留在臺灣，不要加速外移，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們會擴大它在臺灣的能量，現在事實上也是這樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是不要加速外移？大家擔心的是這一點，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。給我幾分鐘，我再問一下農業部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請農業部部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長，不好意思，丹娜絲颱風之後，對於農田產生非常大的影響，尤其是根莖類作物，還有蔬菜作物，農民在抱怨，根據政府所提供的補助，都沒有辦法實質的請領以及得到實質的幫助，這個部分能不能趕快協助？因為我相信這一次在花蓮的風災當中也會有相關的問題，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，彰化的部分其實最大的影響在0708大豪雨，有一些短期葉菜類……短期葉菜類因為三個禮拜就可以復耕，所以我們在第一時間也去做了這些公告，剛才委員說的領不到的部分，我們會再來了解到底是哪一個環節出問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他們就是說申請不到，他們去申請了也申請不到。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再跟公所聯繫一下，看看公所遇到的個案是什麼樣子，我們再來看怎麼樣協助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。關稅談判之後，我們的蝴蝶蘭大苗有可能沒有辦法維持零關稅的優惠，那業者出口的成本勢必會增加，我想請問現在有沒有業者要赴美設廠？"],["陳部長駿季：我想美國現在在評估，但是他們現在在評估的就是利用台糖在美國的五公頃蘭花生產基地當作中繼站，就是他們的接力生產基地。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在台糖？"],["陳部長駿季：在美國，台糖的加州廠，所以這個部分我們也積極的在協商，第一、我們已經請台糖不要賣掉這塊地，以便作為業者的中繼接力生產基地，然後我們也開始請業者規劃，如果業者願意利用這個廠做接力生產，那政府願意投入資金去協助他在當地設廠、改善設備，以符合業者的要求。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以如果業者想要到美國設廠，你們會藉由台糖這塊土地來協助業者在那裡生產蝴蝶蘭所需要的大苗、小苗等等，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們這個政策大概已經確定，但是有一個前提就是業者一定要自己籌組一個經營團隊來經營，而不是由台糖來經營。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員，謝謝部長。","現在請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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主委早我想今天大家都非常關心打炸從我們上任之後主委到這邊我們修了很多法那內政部警政署165的打炸儀表板到今年1到7月還是有高達14.4萬件那財損金額是700多億那今天看到報紙頭條又有一個醫生的太太被騙了3000多萬主委 打炸的成果我想大家都非常努力但是打炸"},{"start":34.979,"end":49.951,"text":"當然不應該是在事後善後所以我們應該事前防範但是我們做了這麼多的宣導還有這麼多詐騙您的感想是什麼我想這個我們到底該再做些什麼"},{"start":50.748,"end":67.467,"text":"我想這個涉及到很多層面就以我們金管會的角度來看的話我們盡量要讓我們的這些金融帳戶不會變成是犯罪的工具再來就是我們要加強大家對金融投資的這些的素養"},{"start":68.368,"end":89.86,"text":"然後知道能夠試炸能夠辨識觀念跟程序跟相關的事情大家都沒有概念所以就一步一步錯然後甚至拿房地產去抵押再借更多的錢去被騙好想諸位我們大家都很努力有打炸是政府的重中之重那金管會尤其是銀行其實已經非常努力那現在積極用各種方法"},{"start":90.62,"end":116.992,"text":"那第一線的基層其實很辛苦除了民眾莫名其妙會生氣說你幹嘛管我錢到哪裡去現在的問題就是我上次你來拜會的時候我來說了其實很多的民眾現在碰到的是銀行真的管很寬管很多管到他們受到生活上很大的影響那網路上面有很多人已經講了我們這邊也接到很多陳情案其實有很多的案子非常的簡單但是現在的問題是"},{"start":118.352,"end":144.417,"text":"第一銀行現在非常積極所以用AI來做相關異常帳戶的控管第二他發現異常他就鎖帳戶這是我們新的法給他的授權但是有些銀行可能過於積極所以造成了很多民眾的困擾這邊舉兩個案子第一個是有一個民眾他的育兒今天去申請通過了但是他的帳戶被鎖了然後最重要的是沒人告訴他"},{"start":145.917,"end":162.969,"text":"有很多人他的帳戶是有扣款的比如說有扣停車費有扣甚至定期定額的投資款這些受到影響的人民眾的反應最嚴重的是被鎖不明原因也就算了連告知都沒有"},{"start":163.769,"end":176.114,"text":"所以當他碰到被吹討相關費用的時候他才知道他被鎖帳第二個是有很多民眾他可能是團購主所以他會接到很多的帳戶轉帳過來的幾百塊的錢可這樣的情況也會馬上被鎖住而這樣的狀況他要拿出跟團購者一個一個對話的記錄銀行才讓他解鎖"},{"start":187.779,"end":204.166,"text":"没错打仗很重要所以主委我们有打仗有需要到搞不清楚状况然后连告知都不做的吗我想就是我们在这个是不是要事前告知或事后告知这件事情你锁了我你总要告诉我吧"},{"start":204.825,"end":225.571,"text":"就是說我們現在已經大概你事前告知怕被詐團利用沒關係但是鎖完之後要不要告訴當事人一下這一點的話我們會有跟銀行這邊溝通至少要告知我覺得無論如何你鎖完之後至少要告知不要等到人家被扣款扣不到的時候才知道現在很嚴重的還有那種可能是交割款違約交割誰負責"},{"start":228.652,"end":251.187,"text":"据我所知现在他们会用简讯跟email通知客户是 第二个告知完之后其实最严重的是他要解锁的方法非常的复杂每个银行不一样你要拿出你他就把你当炸团你要拿出你跟团购的人像我们很多好朋友一起出去爬山我们可能会一起付一笔钱之后勾到去然后再汇款给"},{"start":252.208,"end":272.41,"text":"那個付錢的人像這種情況可能現在都會被認為他可能收取不明來源的銀行帳戶主委我不是說不要打詐而是打詐之後的第一動作要告知第二解鎖的方式要能夠讓民眾比較方便你知道銀行的客服有多難打嗎"},{"start":273.391,"end":276.732,"text":"我只要打個客服我大概都要等一二十分鐘你打過嗎每一個都給你用語音洗腔請你慢慢等候沒有十分鐘是接不起來的所以如果解凍這麼困難每一個都要去現場才能解凍你覺得這樣的打炸不是只是打炸啊它在擾民啊"},{"start":291.192,"end":314.662,"text":"我想剛才委員還有幾位委員這樣的一個要求我們都虛心接受我明白我們不是接受我們希望你能找出方法經管會可以跟銀行公會討論出一個好你要動沒問題那是解凍的方法SOP讓民眾知道我要去哪裡投訴我要去哪裡找辦法"},{"start":315.402,"end":331.682,"text":"这个我们已经在持续在做了我想从第一次发生这个问题再接下来我想如果仔细观察其实确实他们银行也在优化中希望尽数不要再发生这种莫名其妙然后连告知都没有的事件当然这是我们的"},{"start":332.643,"end":355.109,"text":"那個要求也是我們的理想這邊跟委員報告一下就是說我在這邊還是要再再度的重申剛才講說我們對銀行做這件事我們還是絕對的支持但是我們也支持啊對對對就是說只是支持的情況下要讓銀行跟客戶之間還有客戶良善的客戶不要受到太多的打擾當然這是我們的"},{"start":355.529,"end":371.549,"text":"我們一定會朝這個方向來努力剛才講說委員剛才講比如說電話難打的問題告知的問題我們會馬上回去請他們趕快來做你打一次銀行客服你就知道多難打了我相信一般的民眾大概沒有等個十分鐘是接不起來的"},{"start":372.19,"end":391.333,"text":"当然银行的客服人员现在我们现在是这种方法是让客服更累啊他们已经很累了现在更累我希望这个部分是一些好事但是同样的你这种AI的方式有些银行宣称他们有拦阻了50%的诈骗但是相对的有50%的人受到困扰"},{"start":392.569,"end":413.399,"text":"對 當然我想這個是我們努力的方向所以重點是我們要打詐的方法要稍微聰明一點讓正常的人能夠正常的生活而不是有的人連自己轉賬給自己也要被問你為什麼自己轉賬給自己因為你自己轉賬給自己你可能就是被拿出來當喜人這種把每個人都當詐團的方法並不好"},{"start":416.14,"end":443.198,"text":"我想這個案例很多我也常常自己轉給自己我的新轉賬戶我轉到我的股票賬戶就這麼簡單沒有為什麼我要自己轉給自己我覺得至少不要讓人家覺得你把每個人當詐騙集團我想他們也不是想這麼做文化的方法可以更好一點設定的項目可以更精準一點這個是絕對的一定朝這個方向來走"},{"start":443.618,"end":458.629,"text":"好另外一個問題就是金管會在去年說針對汽車強制險的保險費率也就是我上次質詢主委的台灣其實我們有蠻嚴重的金融歧視尤其是在汽車險男性女性不一樣然後我們只有針對"},{"start":460.23,"end":485.804,"text":"車主來做相關的處罰你這是出國險所以你下一三年都會很貴所以很多人就是用別人的名字來買車所以造成了車責跟開車的人都不一樣買車的人是太太開車的人是老公造了事的是兒子然後可是三個人的費率只有那個買車的太太被受到影響這是一個什麼樣的制度這很離譜啊"},{"start":486.664,"end":508.955,"text":"所以主委你們說今年要做處理處理的狀況如何現在的演繹到什麼程度好 謝謝我想這我們一直都在處理我請那個王局長來跟您做個簡單是 金融歧視應該消除尤其是我相信性別不該是歧視第二個我上次跟主委說過的我們希望在金融面前人人平等"},{"start":510.439,"end":538.14,"text":"報告委員這個部分那個因為行政院那邊有列管考那我們這個從人因素的這部分是我需要時間表我們在今年底以前今年年底以前報告來跟行政院應該要根據駕駛人他的行為來做差別費率的條件之前我們希望產險業者做UBI車險的部分要透過他的行為來判斷這件事情"},{"start":538.86,"end":555.352,"text":"保險局還要不要繼續推這部分保險公司的設計上面我們其實都沒有限制他們可以推但是希望你們金管會應該有一個自己的立場我們這個是鼓勵的立場鼓勵的立場希望繼續推"},{"start":558.393,"end":587.425,"text":"我想我在學校使用者習慣很重要我在學校就非常支持就是應該是用預防性的保單就是應該是跟風險做連結是他用風險高的人他本來就應該付高保費而不是拿人頭在這邊轉來轉去另外一個是上一次我跟主委說其實台灣的保險金融科技已經非常進步而且現在區塊鏈技術也很成熟我們在台北市政府的時候110年就跟壽險工會合作跟醫院"},{"start":588.405,"end":617.64,"text":"在診斷證明用區塊鏈的方式來取得當事人同意保險公會可以直接去醫院拿到診斷證明不需要再要這些生病的人去奔波同樣的我上次也問過了如果這個技術是成熟的我們應該是不是在產險我們現在有919萬的汽車1000多萬輛的機車每一個都有強制險他發生事故的時候其實只有一個就是"},{"start":618.32,"end":635.658,"text":"警政單位的相關的報案記錄這個東西他其實也可以透過區塊鏈的方式達到安全只要當事人同意保險工會就直接可以取得所謂的相關的保險理賠這件事情我問過金管會金管會說還不知道民眾自己停購比較好但是5月5號你們回我5月27號金管會的記者會"},{"start":641.124,"end":670.322,"text":"金融科技產業聯盟的國泰金控說將要運用產險聯盟區塊鏈來串接醫療場所跟警政單位的資料將三方資料匯成單一系統平台主委金管會說還是當事人提供但是國泰金控說我們要串聯請問金管會要不要幫忙他們串聯內政部 警政署所有相關車險如果可以的話又可以省掉很多馬路上面的動作"},{"start":670.822,"end":693.007,"text":"那當然啊 其實像比如受險的部分他們有理賠一起通是 理賠一起通現在已經有四十幾家加入了對 對 對所以這是做得到的 不是做不到只要當事人同意就可以取得現在問題就是你要不要去協助他們跟內政部警政單位做連結要不要讓他們能夠串接而已"},{"start":695.543,"end":711.682,"text":"因為李培己通我們自己跟醫院就可以做到醫院也是我們去拜託衛福部拜託相關的單位來促成的車子的碰撞或是事故可能攸關到一些責任"},{"start":712.082,"end":726.631,"text":"沒關係 我們只需要串接警政單位的報案紀錄而已對 就是這部分我們跟會跟內政部請要再溝通一下因為我需要你給我一個時間表他們有一個不一樣的考量因為你們5月5號給我的回文說你們不處理啦"},{"start":727.065,"end":747.798,"text":"沒有我想說這個是一個進步的方向因為否則我們在路上看到很多的車子就為了一個小事故停在那邊是好不好所以我只需要時間我希望在今年年底以前有一個具體的進度好那我想今年年底前我們會把溝通的結果跟委員報告好謝謝我們謝謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們請李燕秀委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時58分）謝謝主席，我想請彭主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委早。今天大家都非常關心打詐，從我們上任之後，主委到這邊，我們修了很多法，內政部警政署165的打詐儀錶板從今年1月到7月還是高達14.4萬件，財損金額七百多億，今天看到報紙頭條又有一個醫生的太太被騙了三千多萬。主委，對於打詐的成果，我想大家都非常努力，但打詐當然不應該是在事後善後，我們應該事前防範，但我們做了這麼多宣導還有這麼多詐騙，您的感想是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：到底該再做些什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個涉及到很多層面，就以我們金管會的角度來看的話，我們儘量要讓金融帳戶不會變成是……"],["黃委員珊珊：犯罪的工具。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，再來我們要加強大家對金融投資的素養，然後能夠識詐、辨識……"],["黃委員珊珊：觀念、程序跟相關的事情，大家都沒有概念，所以就一步一步錯，甚至拿房地產抵押、再借更多的錢去被騙。主委，我們大家都很努力，打詐是政府的重中之重，而金管會，尤其是銀行其實已經非常努力。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在也積極用各種方法，第一線的基層其實很辛苦，除了民眾莫名其妙會生氣說：你幹嘛要管我錢用到哪裡去？現在的問題就是，上次你來拜會的時候我在說的，其實很多民眾現在碰到的是，銀行真的管很寬、管很多，管到他們生活上受到很大的影響。網路上面有很多人已經講了，我們這邊也接到很多陳情案，其實有很多案子非常簡單，但現在的問題是，第一，銀行現在非常積極，所以用AI做相關異常帳戶的控管。第二，他發現異常就鎖帳戶，這是我們新的法給他的授權，但有些銀行可能過於積極，所以造成了很多民眾的困擾。","這邊舉兩個案子，第一個是有個民眾去申請育兒津貼，通過了，但他的帳戶被鎖了，最重要的是沒人告訴他。有很多人的帳戶是有扣款的，比如扣停車費甚至定期定額的投資款，這些受到影響的人，民眾的反映最嚴重的是不明原因被鎖也就算了，連告知都沒有！所以當他碰到被催討相關費用的時候，他才知道被鎖帳。","第二個，有很多民眾可能是團購主，所以他會接到很多帳戶轉帳過來幾百塊的錢，可是這樣的情況也會馬上被鎖住，而這樣的狀況他要拿出跟團購者一個一個對話的紀錄，銀行才讓他解鎖。沒錯，打詐很重要，主委，我們打詐有需要到搞不清楚狀況，然後連告知都不做的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是不是要事前告知或事後告知這件事情，我們也……"],["黃委員珊珊：你鎖了我，你總要告訴我吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們現在已經大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：你事前告知怕被詐團利用，沒關係，但是鎖完之後要不要告訴當事人一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這一點的話，我們會跟銀行溝通，因為這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：至少要告知，我覺得無論如何，你鎖完之後至少要告知，不要等到人家被扣款扣不到的時候才知道，現在很嚴重的還有那種可能是交割款，違約交割，誰負責？"],["彭主任委員金隆：據我所知，現在他們會用簡訊跟E-mail通知。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，第二個，告知完之後，其實最嚴重的是，他要解鎖的方法非常複雜，每個銀行不一樣。他就是把你當詐團，你要拿出你跟團購的人之間，像我們很多好朋友一起出去爬山，我們可能會一起付一筆錢、go Dutch，然後再匯款給那個付錢的人，像這種情況可能現在都會被認為它可能是收取不明來源的銀行帳戶。主委，我不是說不要打詐，而是打詐之後的第一動作是要告知；第二，解鎖的方式要能夠讓民眾比較方便，你知道銀行的客服有多難打嗎？光打一個客服我大概都要等一、二十分鐘。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是……"],["黃委員珊珊：你打過嗎？每一個都給你用語音信箱請你慢慢等候，沒有10分鐘是接不起來的。所以如果解凍這麼困難，每一個都要去現場才能解凍，你覺得這樣的打詐，不是在打詐，它在擾民啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我想剛剛委員還有幾位委員這樣的一個要求，我們都虛心接受，因為其實我們在做這個……"],["黃委員珊珊：我明白，不是接受，我們希望你能找出方法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，我們也持續在做。"],["黃委員珊珊：金管會可以跟銀行公會討論出一個方法，你要凍沒問題，但是解凍的方法、SOP，讓民眾知道我要去哪裡投訴、我要去哪裡找辦法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們已經持續在做了，我想從第一次發生這個問題，接下來如果仔細觀察，確實銀行也在優化中，各家銀行也會看……"],["黃委員珊珊：希望儘速，不要再發生這種莫名其妙連告知都沒有的事件。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，這是我們的要求，也是我們的理想。這邊也跟委員報告一下，我在這邊還是要再度重申，剛才講到，對於銀行做這件事，我們還是絕對支持，但是方法……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們也支持。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：只是支持的情況下，要讓銀行跟客戶之間，還有良善的客戶不要受到太多的打擾，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們一定會朝這個方向努力。委員剛才講的比如電話難打的問題、告知的問題，我們會馬上回去請他們趕快來處理這件事情……"],["黃委員珊珊：你打一次銀行客服就知道多難打了，我相信一般民眾大概沒有等個10分鐘是接不起來的。我們現在的這種方法是讓客服更累啊！他們已經很累了，現在更累。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望，這個部分是一件好事，但這種AI的方式，有些銀行宣稱他們攔阻了50%的詐騙，而相對地有50%的人受到困擾。好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然，我想這個是我們努力的方向，一定……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以重點是，我們打詐的方法要稍微聰明一點，讓正常的人能夠正常地生活。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：而不是有的人連自己轉帳給自己也要被問：你為什麼自己轉帳給自己？因為你自己轉讓給自己，你可能就是被拿出來當洗錢的人。這種把每個人都當詐團的方法並不好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我想案例很多，狀況也很多，我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：我也常常自己轉給自己，我的薪轉帳戶我也轉到我的股票帳戶，就這麼簡單，沒有為什麼說我要自己轉給自己，你懂嗎？我覺得至少不要讓人家覺得你把每個人都當詐騙集團。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想他們也不是想這麼做，因為主要是剛剛講過……"],["黃委員珊珊：問話的方法可以更好一點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為我們主要是，他面對的是一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：然後設定的項目可以更精準一點，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，這是絕對的，一定朝這個方向走。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，另外一個問題，金管會去年說，針對汽車強制險的保險費率，也就是我上次質詢主委的，臺灣其實有蠻嚴重的金融歧視，尤其是在汽車險，男性、女性不一樣。然後我們只有針對車主做相關的處罰，你這次出過險，以下的3年都會很貴，所以很多人就用別人的名字買車，造成了車責跟開車的人都不一樣。買車的人是太太、開車的是老公、肇事的是兒子，可是3個人的費率，只有買車的太太被受到影響，這是一個什麼樣的制度？這很離譜！主委，你們說今年要做處理，處理的狀況如何、現在研議到了什麼程度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，這個我們一直都有在處理，我請王局長來跟您做個簡單的答復。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，金融歧視應該消除，尤其我相信性別不該是歧視。第二個，我上次跟主委說過的，我們希望在金融面前人人平等。"],["王局長麗惠：報告委員，這個部分因為行政院有列管考，我們從人因素的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我需要時間表。"],["王局長麗惠：我們大概今年底以前，會有一個報告來跟行政院作報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：應該要根據駕駛人的行為來訂差別費率的條件，之前我們希望產險業者做UBI車險的部分，要透過他的行為來判斷，這件事情保險局還要不要繼續推？"],["王局長麗惠：這部分保險公司的設計上面，我們其實都沒有限制，他們如果有需求的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：他們可以推，但是……"],["王局長麗惠：他們可以推。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望你們金管會應該有一個自己的立場。"],["王局長麗惠：是，我們這個是鼓勵的立場。"],["黃委員珊珊：鼓勵的立場。"],["王局長麗惠：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望繼續推。主委哩？使用者的習慣很重要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我在學校就非常支持，就是應該用預防性保單，應該跟風險做連結。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，它用風險高的人，他本來就應該付高保費，而不是拿人頭在這邊轉來轉去。","另外一個，上一次我跟主委說，其實臺灣的保險、金融科技已經非常進步，而且現在區塊鏈技術也很成熟。我們在臺北市政府的時候，110年就跟壽險公會合作，跟醫院在診斷證明上用區塊鏈的方式取得，當事人也同意，保險公會可以直接去醫院拿到診斷證明，不需要再讓這些生病的人奔波。同樣地，我上次也問過了，如果這個技術是成熟的，是不是在產險上，我們現在有919萬輛汽車、一千多萬輛機車，每一個都有強制險，當發生事故的時候其實只有一個警政單位的相關報案紀錄，這個東西他其實也可以透過區塊鏈的方式達到安全……只要當事人同意，保險公會就直接可以取得所謂的相關保險理賠。","這件事情我問過金管會，金管會說還不知道，民眾自己提供比較好。但是5月5號你們回我，5月27號金管會的記者會，金融科技產業聯盟的國泰金控說，將要運用產險聯盟區塊鏈來串接醫療場所跟警政單位的資料，將三方資料匯成單一系統平臺。主委，金管會說還是當事人提供，但是國泰金控說我們要串聯，請問金管會要不要幫忙他們串聯？內政部警政署所有相關的單位，車險部分，如果可以的話，又可以省掉很多馬路上面的動作。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，比如壽險部分，它沒有「理賠醫起通」，因為其實……"],["黃委員珊珊：「理賠醫起通」現在已經有四十幾家加入了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對，再來就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這是做得到的，不是做不到，只要當事人同意就可以取得，現在問題就是你要不要去協助他們跟內政部警政單位做連結，讓他們能夠串接而已。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為「理賠醫起通」我們自己跟醫院就可以做到。再來就是因為強制……"],["黃委員珊珊：醫院也是我們去拜託衛福部和相關單位才促成的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為強制險的部分，車子的碰撞或事故可能攸關一些責任歸屬……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，我們只需要串接警政單位的報案紀錄而已。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這部分我們會跟內政部再溝通一下，因為……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我需要你給我一個時間表，我希望很快。"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們有不一樣的考量……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為你們5月5日給我的回文是說你們不處理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想這是一個進步的方向，否則我們在路上看到很多車子就為了一個小事故停在那邊……"],["黃委員珊珊：是！"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們會朝這個方向繼續……"],["黃委員珊珊：好不好？我需要時間表，希望在今年年底以前有一個具體的進度。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，今年年底以前我們會把溝通結果跟委員報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接下來請李彥秀委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc14ed23dab951d104eadaba8731997982a407684b3aac85908ba1d62c5c75d3855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:52:44 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謝謝主席我們讓部長休息啦我們食藥署江署長來 有請江署長還有我們食安辦的徐主任還有我們那個健保署的陳署長陳署長你三個可以到不然你會被我們拜國總執行我帶你去喝 給你忙好好 來"},{"start":35.151,"end":57.261,"text":"為了這個大廠這個事情 我昨天前天我在屏東我爸爸去屏東拍賣場 屠宰場還有在台地的 還有在地霸的 我都去問我跟你講 我們行政院你剛剛講跟邱成金的對話 我也聽了"},{"start":59.628,"end":88.141,"text":"我覺得這個問題好像不是食藥署的事這個問題是受益受益的事受益就是受益師全聯會跟中央續產會有派到各個所有的獨宅廠有受益的這一次的這個大廠應該不是進口的本土的是我們台灣的你看這個就是大廠"},{"start":90.137,"end":114.29,"text":"看一看 這是這個現在你的痘痘因為痘痘可能有破損我說這很實際的喔 很到位的喔我這到現場好不好你的痘痘有破損看起來外表還好但是裡面有生病就好像人一樣那你的痘痘如果瘀起來還是怎麼樣瘦醫師是不能放行的"},{"start":115.431,"end":139.039,"text":"他就要跟我說這個不行他就要上去化製廠就等於像死的豬要去化製煮的蔥 變成豉料或是變成肥料他這個不放心像屏東那裡有三個屠宰縣就是要三個獸醫師今天農委會的人沒有來農業部的人沒有來要來的話我就給他頂了"},{"start":142.611,"end":167.148,"text":"你這個秀衣去那裡有監索崗位嗎有確實去看嗎或是說 有人好像有名沒有人去那裡那這樣就很糟糕了喔所以他要不要放刑他應不應該放刑我們是這個階段那這個是出問題是出在這個處理這喔 處理這這就出問題了"},{"start":169.589,"end":195.668,"text":"現在他回去已經歐了還是說賣了他就賣了嘛回去一天很累耶 流很多很多很多現在你再來就是食藥署劣跡合圓劣跡合圓在哪個地方是在哪個你的角色是從哪裡開始署長你怎麼知道我看你也知道了你回答好你回答我來代替你報告"},{"start":197.249,"end":224.826,"text":"我们跨部会的分工假如这个屠宰线在这个房间里现在相片这个相片里面的屠宰线都是在农方就是受医师要确保之后这一个房间里面都完成但是假如出了这个房间特别是去分切去处理之后假如是由另一个业者食品的业者的时候那个时候就会轮到食药署"},{"start":225.529,"end":240.118,"text":"我跟你報告喔 屏東縣現在像嘉義鄉啦 像泰安 石屏啦他們是 他現在在那裡在拍賣場 我也有去拍賣場耶 我也在那裡吃雞耶因為我那邊有有有這隻 我也要給他五塊三塊的給他吃喔你看那裡很漂亮 你就給他一百塊五 一百塊三這樣賣他這個 自己有屠宰場耶 他現在買賣之後 地下又一樣載到他的屠宰場 好像"},{"start":252.865,"end":278.541,"text":"有的一天在殺七八百頭像太安 像嘉義鄉的話他一天也是兩三百頭在殺四射的那其他都在屏東的屠宰場我現在要問你的就是說你這個事情要去怪時部長怪江署長不對的因為是前面那個環節出事啊他現在是在亡羊補牢在吃苦的"},{"start":280.462,"end":303.666,"text":"你現在這個衆議有盡量他的責任我們要解釋 釐清責任就這樣嘛你現在衆議是屬於公部門的人還是中央市長會的名聘的還是社會意識派來派ON CALL的 白班的到底是 這段是出事的這要追究啊 追究這裡的人不是追究江署長江署長沒過位啊"},{"start":307.105,"end":335.023,"text":"就我所知道這個都是由中央續產會統一去約聘然後獸醫師在裡面去管理但是也是由房檢署農業部房檢署他有一個獸醫師的管理系統這個要在這個上面去回報的那委員剛剛所說的就是說獸醫師是不是有盡責在做對我們來講的時候就是相信第一線的獸醫師"},{"start":336.724,"end":357.814,"text":"很類似我們在看醫生他的判斷那通常我所知道啦很嚴重的不會讓他進來但是常常有一些因為豬還活著然後有的時候不一定看得出來說他是因為生病才變黑或怎麼樣或者是說他是已經在屠宰的時候腸胃道破掉我跟你講"},{"start":359.054,"end":383.105,"text":"包括那些私人屠宰場他們抬了下眼淚賬也是交給這個公司最高的百貨 百貨商去處理他們自己也沒什麼要處理的那些賬都高高處理所以這個公司像這個百貨它的公司設在台北六十六台北我經常說物量在屏東然後社會成本在屏東我看到就很…"},{"start":384.005,"end":388.626,"text":"很難 很困難下去啊這家的母母的 家裡有很多的給你頂起來 我要向石副長說頂起來這家的樹林 都要委託他處理啊你 石耀署"},{"start":402.458,"end":417.446,"text":"你的角色是從哪裡開始你的角色從哪裡開始講什麼你是在菜市場開始 菜市場接手還是在那個我們其實是屠宰場那個房間出去之後分切開始就歸食藥署裡面的來做管理那他"},{"start":418.306,"end":432.26,"text":"我就問說他那個用漂白水是在屠宰場裡面漂白還是拿到工廠去漂白他拿到後面的貨櫃屋裡面那非常高度監視底下的貨櫃屋我們來拍個考察好不好"},{"start":433.959,"end":452.444,"text":"就真的很到位的去看在後面的貨櫃小房間就開幹了 是不是這樣這很嚴肅的問題喔否則是拉到他的工廠那拉到他的工廠去處理的時候有沒有冷鏈啊 有沒有冷藏啊這個都目前看到是都沒有都沒有嘛"},{"start":453.294,"end":458.781,"text":"所以都有可能都會腐敗啊你說在屠宰場裡面就在霧啊或是說在後面的小貨櫃屋或是在那個工廠那個工廠是中間在嘗試啊"},{"start":465.069,"end":489.604,"text":"所以好幾家所以這個我希望秦政院你這個成績的你要來釐清好 恆的協調要好畢竟我們這個是天天在吃啊我常常在吃那個什麼米酸雞 米酸那個就好了現在越想越恐怖耶我從小就在吃耶 吃得很厲害又不死 又不錯"},{"start":491.585,"end":513.929,"text":"所以這個是很嚴肅的東西建國外可能也一樣啦你也是一樣在吃啦所以這個要釐清楚到現在不不希望再有這種事情發生這太差勁了吧 是好不好 你的親身成績你就給他釐清你一直在罵罵罵時務部長一直在罵江署長我就覺得 問題出前面了這樣了解嗎 了解好 來 陳亮宇 來"},{"start":519.298,"end":535.115,"text":"你現在這兩天以後我們要不要貿貿 再六十張不買一張一張就算了跟委員報告 目前報宅到今年到年底通報到食藥署 缺藥平台總共47樣那這47項 我們事實上也有做一些分析包含說有25項 事實上有3"},{"start":538.197,"end":563.015,"text":"24項有三種同類的藥品可以替代另外21種有同類但是不完全進行可以替代剩下的一種就是我們剛剛石部長所說到的Cyclosporine的IV那這個供應事實上是到115年底那取代的廠商食藥署也已經找到了所以關於這一點的衛福部有做剛剛的報告再複述一次這個Cyclosporine的老藥我們台灣沒有辦法自己做"},{"start":564.796,"end":580.634,"text":"是 來我們有特別跟國內的廠商去做協調去爭取那我們也覺得這些專利期以過的藥物在台灣落地在地化其實是在藥物供應任性最重要也是食藥署我再持續努力來推動你們對於國內的"},{"start":583.957,"end":602.064,"text":"學名藥藥廠或者是菸皮藥廠那種藥要用這麼貴的藥你給人家做一定兩個台幣等於你而已嘛你給人家合價合收價嘛不符成本嘛因為那個藥用的量不多嘛你回去以後你如果不在做什麼署部長在做署長他可能也不在處理這個啊反正就盡量有對配就好啊這樣現在不行啊現在你要盤點啊"},{"start":609.955,"end":625.863,"text":"跟委員報告 我們使部長在這個署長任內他那個藥品及支付標準是有公告修法那大家以前都認為說健保署每年的核價都是調降我看報章媒體也是這樣講但是在這個公告修法在4月份之後就可以調升"},{"start":626.363,"end":653.925,"text":"那從4月份到現在呢我們健保署統計有200多項藥品是調生的所以跟委員報告這個部分我們會來密切注意要調生就要這樣準備我大堆資料要靠北靠北你們都在想不然你們如果在插人啊那不是這樣會來注意 會來注意沒有啦 現在這個順便美國川普在那裡亂佈一張旗袖什麼要進進出出 大家要大家要寫旗記就寫 我看部長也說不清楚"},{"start":654.801,"end":671.737,"text":"到底有的就去 如果沒有來日本買歐盟買也可以那一定要讓美國簽字所以這個都是要全盤考量我想我們部長跟署長都有高度跟學術能力我對你們應該是有信心"},{"start":673.699,"end":693.888,"text":"所以這要好好檢討 每天吊那麼高也知道做電梯的要來 你要陳情也要倒一點 我主持 我主持我也是說讓人家可以付成本 讓人家可以做下去不然電梯又來一次 你受得了嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":492,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時52分）謝謝主席。我們讓部長休息，請食藥署姜署長、食安辦許主任及健保署陳署長，請這三位上來就好。"],["主席：有請姜署長、許主任及陳署長。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，你的部分等到星期五總質詢的時候我再來好好的向你詢問。","為了豬大腸這個事情，我昨天、前天都在屏東，包括去屏東的拍賣場、屠宰場，還有在那邊殺豬的、賣豬肉的，我都去問了，剛剛你跟邱鎮軍委員的對話我也聽了，我覺得這個問題好像不是食藥署的事，這個問題是獸醫的事，獸醫就是獸醫師公會全聯會跟中央畜產會派到各個屠宰場去駐場的，這一次的大腸應該不是進口的，是本土的啦……"],["許主任輔：是我們臺灣的。"],["蘇委員清泉：你看，螢幕上這個就是大腸，因為豬隻有可能生病，我說的這個是很實際、很到位的，我是有到現場去，有的豬隻可能生病了，你看牠的外表還好，但是裡面生病了，就好像人一樣，牠的腸子如果黑了或是怎麼樣，獸醫師是不能放行的，他就要說這一批或這個不行，要送去化製場，就等於像是死豬要送去化製，煮一煮或處理後變成飼料或是變成肥料，這個是不能放行的。屏東那邊有三個屠宰線，就是要有三個獸醫師……"],["許主任輔：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：今天農業部的人沒有來，如果有派人來的話，我就「釘」他們了，這些獸醫去那邊有監守崗位嗎？有確實去看過嗎？還是只有名字但人沒有去那邊？這樣就很糟糕了。所以他要不要放行、他應不應該放行？我們是在這個階段，問題也是出在這裡……"],["許主任輔：這裡就出問題了？"],["蘇委員清泉：現在牠的腸子已經黑了或是有問題了，就應該不要了嘛，畢竟腸子一天的量有很多很多的。再來就是食藥署的稽核員，稽核員在哪個地方？他們的角色是從哪裡開始？署長知道嗎？我看你也搞不清楚啊！"],["許主任輔：我來……"],["蘇委員清泉：好，你來替他回答。"],["許主任輔：我來替他報告，我們跨部會有分工，以屠宰線來說，在這個房間裡，就是現在相片裡面的屠宰線，都是在農方，就是獸醫師要確保這一個房間裡面的都完成，但是假如出了這個房間，特別是去分切、去處理之後，假如是由另一個食品業者處理的時候，那個時候就會輪到食藥署。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟你報告，像屏東縣的嘉一香食品、泰安食品，現在是……"],["許主任輔：那都很大間。"],["蘇委員清泉：豬隻在那裡的拍賣場，我也有去拍賣場，我也去那裡按鈕競拍，因為我朋友有執照，我也在那裡5元、3元的按，你看到隻豬漂亮的，就105元、103元的去按鈕競拍。自己有屠宰場的，拍賣完之後一樣把豬隻載回去他的屠宰場，像有的一天要殺到七、八百頭，像泰安、像嘉一香的話，一天也是兩、三百頭在殺……"],["許主任輔：對，自設的。"],["蘇委員清泉：其他的都在屏東的屠宰場。我現在要問你的就是說，這個事情要去怪石部長、怪姜署長是不對的，因為是前面那個環節出事了，他們現在是在亡羊補牢、在幫忙擦屁股嘛……"],["許主任輔：我有聽懂這個意思……"],["蘇委員清泉：現在這些獸醫有盡到他們的責任嗎？我們要先釐清責任嘛，那些獸醫是屬於公部門的人，還是中央畜產會去遴聘的，還是獸醫師公會派來on call的、排班的，到底這次事件的問題是出在哪裡？"],["許主任輔：這個案件……"],["蘇委員清泉：如果要追究應該是要追究這些人，而不是追究姜署長，姜署長是無辜的啊！"],["許主任輔：就我所知道，這個都是由中央畜產會統一去約聘，然後獸醫師在裡面去管理，但也是由防檢署，農業部防檢署有一個獸醫師的管理系統，要在這個上面去回報的。委員剛剛所說的，就是獸醫師是不是有盡責在做？對我們來講就是相信第一線的獸醫師，這很類似我們在看醫生一樣，要相信他的判斷。通常我所知道啦，很嚴重的不會讓牠進來，但是常常有一些，因為豬還活著，然後有的時候不一定看得出來牠是因為生病才變黑或怎麼樣，或者是說牠在屠宰的時候腸胃道破掉或怎麼樣，這個不一定。"],["蘇委員清泉：主任，我跟你講，包括那些私人屠宰場，他們殺完之後也一樣把豬的內臟交給這些公司，交給百威等等的去處理，他們自己也不怎麼想要處理這個啦，內臟都交出去了。"],["許主任輔：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這些公司，像這個百威，公司設在臺北，納稅在臺北，我上次就說了，污染在屏東，社會成本在屏東，我看了就很不……吞不下去啦，這些弄一弄，弄完後就囤起來，我那天問石部長，他說囤起來，這些私人的也都委託他們處理，食藥署的角色是從哪裡開始？姜署長，你是從菜市場開始接手還是在那個……"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實是屠宰場那個房間出去之後，分切開始就歸食藥署來做管理。"],["蘇委員清泉：我就問說，他用漂白水是在屠宰場裡面漂白的，還是拿到工廠去漂白的？"],["姜署長至剛：他拿到後面的貨櫃屋裡面，在非常高度監視底下的貨櫃屋。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們來排個考察，好不好？就真的很到位的去看。在後面的貨櫃屋小房間就開幹了，是不是這樣？"],["姜署長至剛：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：這是很嚴肅的問題。就算拉到他的工廠，他拉到他的工廠去處理的時候，有沒有冷鏈、有沒有冷藏？"],["姜署長至剛：目前看到是都沒有。"],["蘇委員清泉：都沒有嘛！所以可能都有腐敗啊，你說在屠宰場裡面就在弄了？還是拖到後面的小貨櫃屋？還是拖到他的工廠？他的工廠在長治，有好幾家。所以這個部分，我希望行政院你這個層級的要來釐清好。"],["許主任輔：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：橫的協調要好。畢竟我們是天天在吃，我常常在吃那個什麼麵線羹、麵線，現在越想越恐怖！我從大學就在吃了，吃到現在還沒死算不錯的，所以這是很嚴肅的問題。建國可能也一樣啦，你也是一樣在吃，所以這個要釐清楚，不希望再有這種事情，這太差勁了吧！"],["許主任輔：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：你是行政院層級，你就把它釐清，你一直在罵石部長、一直在罵姜署長，我是覺得問題出在前面啊！這樣了解嗎？"],["許主任輔：了解。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，換陳亮妤。"],["陳署長亮妤：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：你這兩天藥「糜糜卯卯」，又有60種不進來了，這是真的還是假的啦？"],["陳署長亮妤：是，跟委員報告，目前報載今年到年底，通報到食藥署缺藥平臺總共47樣。這47項我們事實上有做一些分析，包含有25項，事實上有24項有三種同類的藥品可以替代；另外21種有同類，但是不完全劑型可以替代；剩下的一種就是我們剛剛石部長所說到的Cyclosporin的IV，這個供應事實上是到115年底，而取代的廠商食藥署也已經找到了。所以關於這一點，衛福部有做剛剛的報告，再複述一次。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個Cyclosporin是老藥，我們臺灣沒有辦法自己做？"],["姜署長志剛：我們有特別跟國內的廠商去做協調、去爭取，我們也覺得這些專利期已過的藥物在臺灣落地、在地化，其實是在藥物供應韌性最重要，也是食藥署在持續努力推動的事情……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦，你們對於國內的學名藥藥廠或者GMP藥廠……這種藥已經是很久的藥了，你會讓他們做，一定有兩個大的原因而已，你把人家核價核得太低，他們不符成本嘛！因為那個藥用的量不多，長期以來，你們也沒在做什麼，石部長在做署長時，他可能也沒在注意這個，反正就進口有得買就好了，但現在不行了！現在你要盤點，好嗎？"],["陳署長亮妤：跟委員報告，石部長在署長任內，藥品及支付標準是有公告修法，大家以前都認為健保署每年的核價都是調降，我看報章媒體也是這樣講。但是經過公告修法，在4月份之後就可以調升。從4月份到現在，我們健保署統計有兩百多項藥品是調升的，所以跟委員報告，這個部分我們會來密切注意。"],["蘇委員清泉：要調升就要準備一大堆資料，在那邊「哭爸哭母」，你們才會幫人家想，不然你們也沒在管人家，不是這樣嗎？"],["陳署長亮妤：會注意、會注意。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦，現在這個時候，剛好美國川普在亂搞一場、發瘋，什麼藥進進出出，以後臺灣的藥是會漲價還是會降價，我看部長也說不清楚，到底有的是降價或是漲價？不然向日本買或是歐盟買也可以啊，哪有一定通通要讓美國牽制？所以這個都是要全盤考量，我想我們部長跟署長都有這個高度跟學識能力，我對你們應該是有信心，所以這要好好檢討，把價格調高一點。明天換做點滴的要來立法院陳情了，明天下午1點，由我主持。我也是說讓他們可以符合成本，讓他們可以做得下去，不然缺點滴事件又來一次，你受得了嗎？"],["陳署長亮妤：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["陳署長亮妤：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員。","接下來請黃秀芬委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcf19e1b0493d7914985f90000f7f2f0aba407684b3aac8590effd30bbe266b48c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:51:48 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謝主席有請經濟部鞏部長農業部陳部長兩位部長還有台電王總經理還有王總經理台電王總經理謝謝兩位部長辛苦了鞏部長辛苦了謝謝政務繁忙"},{"start":28.018,"end":51.065,"text":"又要被跟拍又要被偷拍辛苦該告了還是要告保障自己的權益這個這個預算編了600億分三個年度來執行那經濟部編了187億那187億裡面大概跟台電的任性有關係台電王總有來嗎"},{"start":54.622,"end":68.65,"text":"而且我大概講一下這種狀況就是這一次的風災路徑這颱風這個風災的路徑非常這個丹納斯颱風路徑跟一般颱風路徑不一樣這個部長等他來我再問這個他從"},{"start":73.351,"end":101.649,"text":"西南沿海從西南沿海然後登陸過去不是沒有這個案例有大概七八年前有一次也是從這個台南跟高雄登陸第一個這會造成嚴重傷害主要原因是說這是很很鮮少的路徑一般從東部或者南部很少從西南部從台灣西側沿海登陸所以"},{"start":103.674,"end":124.508,"text":"這個相關的災害造成包括大規模停電停水包括房屋損害包括道路的損害包括農漁產的損害所以今天那麼多不會來所以今天王總最專業台內王總最專業電纜地下化我十幾年前就在做了包括台17線19線台9線台1線"},{"start":131.38,"end":156.108,"text":"等等這些都要進行這個韌性的強化這韌性的強化需要經濟部給予台北更多的預算如果在他這個增資一千億沒有辦法達成的目標之下你要多給他一些這個所謂針對西南部這個沿海區域他電纜地下化的經費這部分能不能請這個部長你先表示一下意見"},{"start":158.268,"end":177.622,"text":"包委員 我們對台電的支持是一直在支持的我知道啦 但是你說這個我剛剛所說的很特定的這個用途提預算出來當然包括甚至於這一次的這個因應國際情勢的這個特別預算我們之前也提出來200億元我很具體的說西南沿海"},{"start":178.763,"end":207.586,"text":"靠風氣區它的電纜地下化這個必須要馬上做所以王總你知道我在說什麼嗎過去10年我的選區我做了不少就是我們台電公司總共102億其中80億就是要做這個事情針對西南部嗎西南部沿海對 大部分受風區因為這次的災區有12個縣市對 大部分你要盤點出來說這些受風面的這些縣市它的電纜地下化需要多少經費我就優先去處理"},{"start":209.022,"end":221.168,"text":"否則造成大規模的停電會造成更多的這個所謂民眾的不便或者產業損失所以不能大規模停電所以電纜地下化是刻在 勢在必行而且是立業去執行"},{"start":223.397,"end":238.871,"text":"我們因為81預算所以還是先從比較重要重點地區可以實行的先來做這個有錢有經費就馬上去做這個很重要很難確保極端氣候不會像有這種颱風但那是颱風這種路徑颱風再次產生"},{"start":242.694,"end":271.843,"text":"山神你這電纜沒有地下化風來 兩邊掉了 倒了倒了就怪不得大規模停電我們也會除了同時並行地下化之外我們會加強穩固可以抗17級的風王總有可能嗎有可能嗎你這個電線桿可以抗17級就是不是每一支啦是比較主要的是 報告委員我們是在每五支就有一支所謂的一級電桿那就不用地下化了嗎"},{"start":272.603,"end":290.334,"text":"那個不能地下化的地區包括像一些可以地下化的地區優先地下化啦對可以但是經費有限啦因為80億能做的區域其實不多啦所以剛剛部長講的我們針對重要的地區先做對好主要經濟部還是電力的問題電力韌網韌性電網的強韌化最強韌化這個很重要另外這個農業部的部分"},{"start":296.617,"end":302.403,"text":"農業部大概這個也編了200億左右203億要分三年來執行這203億大概就是主要是做這個農漁產品的這些災害的補償然後這個設施的補償專案輔導還有基礎建設農水路的基礎建設如果假設再發生像丹納斯颱風這種"},{"start":318.441,"end":331.368,"text":"這種傷害 我們沿海的這個養殖 餘溫啊 或者這個農田設施啊 會受到影響未來怎麼樣去讓類似的情況在發生的時候 我們的基礎設施 我們農漁的生產能夠不受影響"},{"start":332.461,"end":358.956,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這次的經驗我們就發現說我們如果完全靠即時的輸電可能會有影響所以我們已經漁業署已經在規劃相對的這些這些漁產業專區有一些儲能的設備然後加裝儲能的設備萬一電力沒辦法供應的話可以透過儲能的設備來持續的讓那個水車基本的那個水車的運作能夠做一些運作這個部分你什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":360.117,"end":363.922,"text":"這個我們現在已經開始在做了而且哪些縣市在執行"},{"start":366.665,"end":392.93,"text":"跟委員報告 包括高雄台南縣型這種地區型養殖漁園的儲能設備我們都有在補助沒記錯的話已經有十幾戶都有這樣建設這個部分我們早天在好好討論你們用多少經費 用多少預算然後執行多少年的啟程 這很重要儲能設備對這些養殖漁業非常重要另外再回到經濟部"},{"start":394.849,"end":420.663,"text":"這個高雄的河川的治水率 治理率跟雨水下水道在原來高雄縣就是現在北高雄的區域尤其是集中在我的全區不管是河川治理率啦或者區排治理率都遠低於全國平均這部分水利署有沒有比較積極的作為怎麼樣把這個河川治理率跟雨水下水道的實施率都能夠最短時間能夠提升上來"},{"start":422.973,"end":447.902,"text":"蘇長好 謝謝委員我想委員一直在關切整個高雄的不管河川跟排水的治理吧在整個目前全國的治理率來講在縣市管的部分是45%那這幾年在這個委員的支持之下其實整個高雄目前有一些場主進步包含像點保溪"},{"start":448.382,"end":466.819,"text":"沒有說長途進步有進步啦有進步有進步我把這個問題點出來就是說我們過去已經落後了現在要迎頭趕上沒有錯因為像委員關切的點寶溪或後晉溪這一些因為這個點寶溪後晉溪是未來半導體生產的中心男子產業園區這個六個廠"},{"start":470.802,"end":485.238,"text":"台積電六個廠都會在那邊未來可能又還有一廠可能鞏部廠比較有一些可能未來還有一廠一點是會來我的百普園區也不一定這樣有六個廠這個是典寶溪後晉溪的流域或是核酸治理很重要"},{"start":485.759,"end":505.21,"text":"委員都一直關切我們的這些進展我們會來努力包含像剛剛談阿公練習的整體的環境改造都是委員一直關切的我們會積極跟市政來努力因為高雄市政執行量能效率都非常好我們會一起來努力好 謝謝最後一個問題想請教內政部大概30秒鐘各位請回"},{"start":507.583,"end":525.208,"text":"電視部是這個董事董事那個大概請教一下災害防救法我們應該考慮去修正一下就是能夠參考日本的這個災害對策基本法明定縣市政府要建立這個弱勢避難名冊"},{"start":526.448,"end":541.74,"text":"是這個部分還有甄列這個參與條款這個您覺得怎麼樣我們會積極來研討修正這一次我們也特別發現就是說其實我們在第一時間就有要求相關的弱勢戶他應該要積極避難事實上花蓮縣政府在第一"},{"start":542.16,"end":562.226,"text":"第一次的警報9月21號公布的時候他們也有做這樣子的疏散那後來當然是他們地方上在執行上跟我們中央在指令上面他們可能配合來不及那原則上我們覺得委員這個建議方向是我們可以參考我們會再進行討論多久時間可以完成就是避難所弱勢避難名車的建立"},{"start":562.884,"end":567.408,"text":"跟納入這個所謂的參與條款這個要修法嗎對 這要修法我們會積極來處理好 謝謝謝謝市長謝謝謝謝邱志偉委員之訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時52分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部龔部長、農業部陳部長還有台電王總經理。"],["主席：請兩位部長還有台電王總經理。"],["龔部長明鑫：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：兩位部長辛苦了！龔部長，辛苦了！"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝！"],["邱委員志偉：政務繁忙，又要被跟拍、又要被偷拍，辛苦了！該告的還是要告，保障自己的權益。這個預算編列600億，分3個年度來執行，經濟部編列187億，這187億裡面大概跟台電的韌性有關係，台電王總有來嗎？沒關係，我大概講一下這種狀況，就是這一次風災的路徑，丹娜絲颱風的路徑跟一般颱風的路徑不一樣，它是從西南沿海來，然後登陸，過去不是沒有這個案例，大概七、八年前，有一次也是從臺南跟高雄登陸，第一個，這會造成嚴重傷害的主要原因是因為這是很鮮少的路徑，一般從東部或者南部，很少從西南部，從臺灣西側沿海登陸，所以造成的相關災害包括大規模停電、停水、房屋損害、道路損害、農漁產的損害，所以今天有那麼多部會來，今天台電王總最專業，這個電纜地下化我十幾年前就在做了，包括台17線、台19線，台9線、台1線等等，這些都要進行韌性的強化，但韌性的強化需要經濟部給予台電更多的預算，如果它在增資1,000億也沒有辦法達成目標的狀況之下，你要多給它一些針對西南部沿海區域關於電纜地下化的經費，這部分能不能請部長先表示一下意見？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們對台電是一直在支持……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道啦！但是我剛剛所說很特定的用途……"],["龔部長明鑫：每次都提預算出來，甚至於這一次因應國際情勢的特別預算，我們之前也提出200億……"],["邱委員志偉：我很具體地說，西南沿海受風地區的電纜地下化，這個必須要馬上做，所以王總您知道我在說什麼，過去十年，我的選區我做了不少。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，台電公司總共有102億，其中80億就是要做這個事情。"],["邱委員志偉：針對西南部嗎？西南部沿海的受風區。"],["龔部長明鑫：大部分。"],["邱委員志偉：因為這次的災區有12個縣市，你要盤點出來這些受風面的縣市其電纜地下化需要多少經費，你就要優先去處理。"],["龔部長明鑫：有、有、有。"],["邱委員志偉：否則造成大規模的停電，會造成更多民眾的不便或者產業損失，所以不能大規模停電，電纜地下化是勢在必行，而且是立即要去執行。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們因為預算有80億，所以還是先從比較重要的重點地區、可以實行的先來做。"],["邱委員志偉：有錢、有經費就要馬上去做，這個很重要！"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員志偉：很難確保現在極端氣候不會再有像丹娜絲這種路徑的颱風再次產生，這個電纜沒有地下化，風來，電線桿就倒了，倒了就大規模停電。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們除了會同時併行電纜地下化之外，也會加強穩固，可以抗17級風。"],["邱委員志偉：王總，有可能嗎？這種電線桿可以抗17級風？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是每一支啦！是比較主要的。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，每五支就有一支所謂的E級電桿。"],["邱委員志偉：那就不用地下化了嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：在不能地下化的地區，包括一些比較……"],["邱委員志偉：可以地下化的地區就先地下化啦！"],["王總經理耀庭：對，但是經費有限，80億元能做的區域其實不多，所以如同剛剛部長講的，我們針對重要的地區先做。"],["邱委員志偉：好，經濟部主要處理的還是電力問題啦！就是韌性電網的強韌化，要最強韌化！這點很重要。","另外，在農業部這個部分，大概也編了200億元左右，203億元。"],["陳部長駿季：203億元。"],["邱委員志偉：要分三年執行，這203億元主要大概就是做農漁產品的災害補償嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：然後是設施補償。"],["陳部長駿季：對，專案輔導，還有基礎建設──農水路的基礎建設。"],["邱委員志偉：假設再發生像丹娜絲颱風這種傷害，沿海養殖魚塭或農田設施受到影響，也就是類似情況未來再發生的時候，要怎麼樣讓我們的基礎設施、農漁生產能夠不受影響？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為這次的經驗，我們發現如果完全靠即時輸電可能會有影響，所以漁業署已經在規劃，在這些漁產業專區設置一些儲能設備。加裝儲能設備後，萬一電力沒辦法供應的話，可以透過儲能設備持續讓基本的水車運作能夠維持。"],["邱委員志偉：這部分什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在已經開始做了，而且……"],["邱委員志偉：哪些縣市在執行？"],["王署長茂城：跟委員報告，包括高雄、臺南這些地區型養殖魚塭的現有儲能設備，我們都在補助。我沒記錯的話，已經有十幾戶建置這樣的設備。"],["邱委員志偉：針對這個部分，我們再找一天好好討論，包括你們用多少經費、多少預算、執行多少年期程，這很重要，儲能設備對這些養殖漁業來說非常重要。"],["王署長茂城：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，再回到經濟部。關於高雄的河川治理率跟雨水下水道，在原來的高雄縣，也就是現在北高雄區域，尤其集中在我的選區，不管是河川治理率或區排治理率，都遠低於全國平均，對於這個部分，水利署有沒有比較積極的作為，怎麼樣讓河川治理率跟雨水下水道的實施率都能在最短時間之內提升上來？請署長。"],["林署長元鵬：謝謝委員，委員一直在關切整個高雄的河川跟排水治理。以目前全國的治理率來講，縣市管部分是45%，而這幾年在委員的支持之下，其實整個高雄有長足的進步，包含典寶溪……"],["邱委員志偉：沒有「長足進步」，是有進步啦！"],["林署長元鵬：是有進步，我們會努力。"],["邱委員志偉：我把這個問題點出來，就是因為我們或許已經落後了，現在要迎頭趕上。"],["林署長元鵬：沒有錯。像委員關切的典寶溪或後勁溪這些，都是我們……"],["邱委員志偉：因為典寶溪和後勁溪是未來半導體生產的中心！在楠梓產業園區裡，台積電的六座廠都會在那邊，未來可能還有一廠……龔部長可能比較了解，未來也還有一座1.4奈米廠會來我們白埔園區也不一定。有六個廠會在典寶溪和後勁溪流域，所以河川治理很重要。"],["林署長元鵬：我們會來努力，委員都一直關切這些進展，我們會來努力，包含像剛剛阿公店溪的整體環境改造，都是委員一直關切的，我們會積極跟市政府來努力，因為高雄市政府執行量能、效率都非常好，我們會一起來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝，各位請回。最後一個問題想請教內政部，大概30秒鐘，內政部董次，請教一下，我們應該可以考慮修正災害防救法，能夠參考日本的災害對策基本法，明定縣市政府要建立弱勢避難名冊，還有增列參與條款，您覺得怎麼樣？"],["董次長建宏：好，我們會積極來研討修正，而這一次也特別發現，其實我們在第一時間就有要求相關的弱勢戶應該要積極避難，事實上花蓮縣政府在第一次警報9月21日公布的時候，他們也有做這樣子的疏散，後來他們地方在執行上跟我們中央在指令上面，他們可能來不及配合，原則上我們覺得委員這個建議方向可以參考，我們會再積極討論。"],["邱委員志偉：多久時間可以完成，就是弱勢避難名冊的建立跟納入所謂的參與條款，這個要修法嗎？"],["董次長建宏：對，這要修法，我們會積極處理。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員質詢，謝謝次長。","現在請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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好 那麼所以我們認為輝達如果也來落腳雅灣也能夠充分運用到目前金管會在雅灣所配置的這樣環境能夠螺製人才 也能夠吸引資金是這樣嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":168.135,"end":190.825,"text":"接下來我們來看一下我們現在關心的另外就是新一代清償能力制度ICS還有接軌IFRS7這裡面我們看到的最近大家關心的就是保險業因應近期國際的金融情勢有一個暫行措施對不對這個暫行措施關注的是資本氏族率和匯率的均價制度還有責任準備金的提"},{"start":191.885,"end":213.56,"text":"記題的基準調整嘛 對不對那目前的主要變動是怎麼樣有人說這個是一個比較屬於監理的寬容你認為是一個把標準放得比較低一點本來要求考80分現在考70分就好了呢還是你認為這整個的制度配套它不是只是監理寬容還有更積極面的意義我想謝謝委員給我這個機會說明"},{"start":215.541,"end":238.244,"text":"我想在4月2號到4月到5月的時候誰也說不清楚未來半年會發生什麼事情但是我們在明年的1月1號是已經確定要接軌兩個制度那我們也講過了就是說如果這個中間如果產生重大經濟波動的話我們過去所設算的標準都會受到影響所以我們才在那個情況之下制定一個暫行措施第一個我們會講RBC用軍價"},{"start":239.825,"end":265.039,"text":"這個金管會馬上就可以決定但是另外還有一個財報財報是會計準則金管會是沒有辦法更動所以我們用了一種方法就是明年開帳的時候本來就會有一個有利影響數這部分我們在40%額度之內其實這個東西不是說我們額外的那其實他明年他本來就可以收回這一部分所以我們用這個方式來抵禦達到匯率均價的效果所以這兩是一樣的只是說我們"},{"start":265.959,"end":282.013,"text":"這也不是寬容我們是為了因應這樣一個突然的波動我想川普這個因素我想再假設你回溯到明年應該沒人會想到這樣所以說我們只是希望說做一個監理官穩定市場是最重要的職責之一是監理穩定那我們來看你說的沒有錯"},{"start":283.214,"end":306.393,"text":"這個匯率的不穩定它會造成受險公司首先它過去的保單的資金成本較高譬如說9%那時候台灣的保單很高但是國內利率偏低所以它不得不到海外去投資它就要換匯可是換匯之後就匯率不穩定它就有避險的成本這個成本是付出去的另外它就算有獲利也要到外匯準備金目前的一個模型是這樣沒錯吧對 道理上是這樣"},{"start":308.294,"end":327.437,"text":"但是你要知道壽險業資金回台投資不是只有帳面資金為了每年為了避險的換匯成本高達3851億那麼過去的波動也造成一定的匯率損失那在目前你政經措施之下它的外匯價格變動準備金要提出了3726億我們可以這樣說每年目前在"},{"start":328.717,"end":345.114,"text":"避險的成本就要固定的成本就有三千八然後呢 機會成本不能拿去用要必須放在我們的準備金的有三千七如果這些錢我能夠有效的把它尊潔 降低是不是來一字五瑕之中心是不是更好其實跟委員報告一下其實如果我們針對"},{"start":346.235,"end":374.283,"text":"仔細去研究一下壽險公司的避險工具跟他經營模式就會看到就是說我們過去十年大概花了兩兆其實兩兆的部分其實並沒有解決我們現在匯率上的問題就代表說這個工具跟他們的真正的風險是不那麼匹配我們才會想說我們是不是好好來檢討一下有一套制度可以這樣來做的時候他可以不用去因為帳面上的波動去避險而把這個錢直接拿來增資所以我想這個反而是強化體質"},{"start":375.663,"end":396.858,"text":"支持靜環這樣做法但是我們看到就是這樣過去您聽到了我們的監理跟我們的財務管理如果說我們的資本市足率為了保護的利益我們要做風險管理因此要提立外匯準備有獲利或者說他又不能就不發股利但是就金控的我們公司來講他帳面有獲利卻沒有現金他被迫要去舉債以滿足股東權益"},{"start":398.379,"end":418.063,"text":"我們在這裡看到了為了股東的財務治理發現金的鼓勵跟為了保護的風險管理產生一個權衡的問題那面對我這個具體的問題譬如說當我們要求對於保護的權益我們進行風險管理要求他有獲利不花鼓勵但是他為了對股東交代他怎麼辦他舉再來發鼓勵你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":424.839,"end":447.464,"text":"這個委員對這問題研究非常深入這個就是凸顯了一個問題理論上來講你有獲利就應該發股利沒有問題但是顯然我們這一套會計制度的評價很多的獲利是來自於未實現現在有明年可能就沒有這也是為什麼我們在發放現金的時候保險局會這麼保守就是帳面上雖然有獲利但是他認為這個東西很多是未實現假如明年匯率波動又沒有了所以"},{"start":448.104,"end":477.412,"text":"我們才會很認真來思考這套會計制度所呈現的損益是不是真正的損益好 我們看到今後母公司它如果不發股利它擔心股東會對它失去信心股價會下跌這個時候又不利於它的機構的展望平等然後如果說它舉債去發現金股利它會造成淨負債比的上升利息保障倍數下降長期的ROE下降還有利率上揚它的資金成本上升削弱它長期的利差到底這樣的一個困境兩難的困境 主委"},{"start":478.032,"end":505.294,"text":"您目前用什麼方式來因應所以剛剛委員提到這麼複雜這麼精準的描述其實最重要一點就是我們現在衡量受險損益的這個方法顯然有了很大的跟實質的落差我剛才提到你的現金任何一個行業各位都知道我今年的損益多少我就發多少股利經過股東大會這樣就沒有問題了但是為什麼在一個受險業會產生這個問題還會產生奇怪明明獲利還要去取債發現金"},{"start":506.775,"end":532.91,"text":"所以這個就是一個很癥結的問題我了解目前好像保發中心承擔這樣的重責大任那天我們三個都在場我們再聽一下目前是不是保發中心在幫忙做這樣的一個試算是 過去我們一直都是希望借重保發的一些的精算統計數據來幫我們做這些事好 那我來想 我打個比方 您是老師結果如果老師校長告訴說你全班要歐帕至少讓他可以補考"},{"start":533.47,"end":551.685,"text":"那你考卷怎麼出班上20個同學國英數理化大家的能力高低都不一樣你英文出高了對那個英文差的人不停不公平你數學出簡單的對數學厲害的人不公平所以呢出了考卷全班20個同學那麼多學生專長不同還要維持排名不變還要全員及格你覺得這個老師有辦法做得到嗎"},{"start":552.981,"end":565.778,"text":"當然很挑戰啦 這我們當老師就是每天都在想這些事情所以這也是你的目標囉當然我們希望達到公平接軌跟所謂的信賴保護接軌是 那麼我們先舉一個特別的案例"},{"start":568.496,"end":592.734,"text":"人壽他目前呢在招親希望人家去欣賞他但是這些標準在調控的當中會影響到他的代價額估的一個表現那你們怎麼辦所以我們想說盡快把遊戲規則確定以方便這個各方做評估所以這裡面有寫到接軌ICS我們訪問中心說RVC未達門檻的人可個案申請是這樣"},{"start":594.349,"end":618.071,"text":"對就是我們希望就是說這部分因為新制度是希望大家都能走下但是該兼顧到的公平比如說你以前的增資或是一些資本缺口還是不會因為接軌而消失那剛剛提到了那目前的要接軌這個新一代新廠能力的過渡措施那是由保發中心在十月中要發布那十月中就快到了"},{"start":619.352,"end":644.909,"text":"主委認為承擔這個重責大任的初體老師可以達到你的目標嗎排名不變然後大家都歐帕我想我們現在應該是現在都已經大概在做法制作業了應該是很快就如果說快的話就這一兩天會跟大家做那對於這樣的結果您保持怎麼樣的一個期待樂觀全盤歐帕排名不變還是有一家兩家要補考"},{"start":646.834,"end":664.187,"text":"我想情況不一樣容留明天我們再或是這兩天再跟大家做報告不過要跟他做報告很好對基本上剛剛委員提到我們剛才講我們公平的接軌信賴保護的接軌這部分因為我們是用一個更嚴格的標準我們希望我們的授權越來越好"},{"start":665.227,"end":689.616,"text":"其實很多市場在解讀說其實這樣是不是比較放寬其實不是就是因為我們新的制度很嚴格所以我們要用一段時間讓我們的受請公司能夠調整的往上走就像爬階梯一樣好 謝謝主委您過去是學生心目中的好老師希望未來我們所推出來的制度也能讓這些各家的保險公司都認為您是個稱職的好主委 謝謝主委 希望學生都變成好學生優秀的學生 謝謝"},{"start":691.077,"end":691.779,"text":"好 我們謝謝鍾委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":655,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時47分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請彭主任委員。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，我今天的重點標題很清楚，但還是不能免俗的要從大家最關切的開始，預測您今天的報告有四大議題，關於第二點，之前也問到了輝達進駐北士科的議題，我們看到您的報告當中寫「陷入僵局」，而您關切的是根據保險法第一百四十六條之二，投資不動產要即時利用並有收益為限，在時限內進行開發，而且要增加租金收益。這樣看起來，好像對於新壽在目前有沒有即時利用、有收益，還有進行開發，您關注的是這個角度，還是我們應該關注輝達能夠在臺灣進駐這個更大的題目？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想國人應該都很期盼外資對臺灣，特別是對我們未來重點產業，我想這個立場應該國人都是一致的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。好，那我們來看一下，您認為輝達如果進入臺灣，更能夠將各種創新產業引來臺灣，這些創新產業可以成為國際資金投資的標的，相互都有幫忙，是不是這樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想任何外部資本的投資對本地經濟體而言，只要方向是正確的，應該都有助益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是雞生蛋、蛋生雞，我們有標的讓他們投資，資金會進來，資金進來就有更多新創產業來爭取這些資金。所以相較之下，輝達是不是一個火車頭，他更能夠吸引國際的新創產業來進入臺灣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我想這應該會有效果，他跟國內的供應鏈能夠結合得更緊密。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這也是你就任之後不斷談的亞資中心，對不對？亞資中心要扮演這個角色嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：把資金帶進來，也把新創產業帶進來，讓臺灣的資金有投資的對象，也讓臺灣的產業有資金來投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問亞資中心目前準備最充足的專區在哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然現在我們只有公布一個高雄示範……"],["鍾委員佳濱：只有公布一個高雄的亞灣，對不對？這樣講，如果輝達進駐高雄的亞灣是不是一個非常恰當的地點？"],["彭主任委員金隆：尊重他們專業的考量，因為他們自己有自己的一些條件考量，我想最近在媒體也講了很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以我們認為輝達如果也來落腳亞灣，能充分運用到目前金管會在亞灣所配置的環境，能夠羅致人才，也能夠吸引資金，是這樣嘛！好，謝謝。","接下來我們來看一下另外一個議題，就是新一代清償能力制度（ICS），還有接軌IFRS17，這裡面我們看到的，最近大家關心的就是保險業因應近期國際的金融情勢有一個暫行措施，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個暫行措施關注的是資本適足率和匯率的均價制度，還有責任準備金計提的基準調整，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前的主要變動是怎麼樣？有人說這比較是屬於監理的寬容，你認為是把標準放得比較低一點，本來要求考80分，現在考70分就好了呢？還是你認為這整個制度配套不只是監理寬容，還有更積極面的意義？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員給我這個機會說明，我想在4月到5月的時候誰也說不清楚未來半年會發生什麼事情，但是我們在明年1月1號已經確定要接軌兩個制度，我們也講過了，如果這中間產生重大經濟波動的話，我們過去所設算的標準都會受到影響，所以我們才在那個情況之下制定一個暫行措施。第一個，我們講RBC用均價，這個金管會馬上就可以決定，但另外還有一個財報，財報是會計準則，金管會沒有辦法更動。所以我們用了一種方法，就是明年開帳時本來就會有一個有利影響數，這部分在40%的額度之內，其實這個東西不是額外的，明年本來就可以收回這一部分，所以我們用這個方式來抵禦，達到匯率均價的效果，所以這兩個是一樣的，只是說……這也不是寬容，我們是為了因應突然的波動，我想川普這個因素，假設你到明年回溯來看，應該沒人會想到這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們只是希望做一個監理官，穩定市場是最重要的職責之一。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是監理穩定。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您說的沒有錯，匯率的不穩定會造成壽險公司……首先他們過去的保單的資金成本較高，譬如說9%，那時候臺灣的保單很高，但是國內利率偏低，所以他們不得不到海外去投資，投資就要換匯，可是換匯之後的匯率不穩定，他們就有避險的成本，這個成本是付出去的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，他們就算有獲利也要報外匯準備金，目前的模型是這樣，沒錯吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，大致上是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但你要知道，壽險業資金回臺投資不是只有帳面資金，每年為了避險的換匯成本高達3,851億，過去的波動也造成一定的匯率損失，在目前這樣的措施之下，外匯價格變動準備金要提出3,726億。我們可以這樣說，目前每年避險的固定成本就有3,800億，機會成本不能拿去用，必須放在我們的準備金有3,700億，如果這些錢能夠有效撙節、降低來挹注亞資中心，是不是更好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告一下，如果我們仔細去研究一下壽險公司的避險工具跟他們的經營模式，就會看到過去10年大概花了2兆，其實2兆並沒有解決我們現在匯率上的問題，就代表這個工具跟他們真正的風險不那麼匹配……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們才會想，我們是不是好好來檢討一下，有一套制度可以這樣來做的時候，他們可以不用因為帳面上的波動去避險，而是把這個錢直接拿去增資……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以我們是支持……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個反而是強化體質。"],["鍾委員佳濱：支持金管會這樣的做法，但我們看到就是這樣，過去你提到了我們的監理跟財務管理，如果我們的資本適足率為了保戶利益要做風險管理，因此要提存外匯準備，有獲利者又不能不發股利，但是就金控母公司來講，他帳面有獲利卻沒有現金，他被迫要去舉債以滿足股東權益，我們看到為了股東的財務治理、發現金的股利跟為了保戶的風險管理產生了一個權衡問題。面對我這個具體的問題，譬如當我們要求對於保戶權益進行風險管理，要求他有獲利不發股利的情況……但是他為了對股東交代，他該怎麼辦？他舉債來發股利，你覺得這樣可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員對這個問題研究非常深入，這就凸顯了一個問題，理論上來講，有獲利就應該發股利，這是沒有問題的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但顯然我們這一套會計制度的評價，很多的獲利是來自於未實現，現在有，明年可能就沒有，這也是為什麼我們在發放現金時，保險局會這麼保守，就是帳面上雖然有獲利，但是他們認為這個東西很多是未實現，假設明年匯率波動又沒有了，所以我們才會很認真思考這套會計制度所呈現的損益是不是真正的損益，這才是我們的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我們看到金控母公司如果不發股利，他擔心股東會對他失去信心，股價會下跌，這個時候又不利於機構的展望評等。如果他舉債去發現金股利，他會造成淨負債比上升、利息保障倍數下降，長期的ROE下降，還有利率上揚、資金成本上升，削弱他長期的利差，這樣的兩難的困境，主委，您目前用什麼方式來因應？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員提到這麼複雜、這麼精準的描述其實最重要的一點就是我們現在衡量壽險損益的方法顯然跟實質有很大的落差。我剛才提到，任何一個行業都知道今年的損益多少就發多少股利，經過股東大會就沒有問題了，但是為什麼壽險業會產生這個問題，還會覺得奇怪，明明獲利了還要去舉債發現金……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這就是一個很癥結的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解，目前好像保發中心承擔這樣的重責大任，那天我們三個都在場，我們再聽一下，目前是不是保發中心在幫忙做這樣的試算？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，過去我們一直都希望借重保發的一些精算統計數據來幫我們做這些事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來打個比方，您是老師嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天如果老師、校長說你們全班要all pass，至少要讓他可以補考，那你考卷怎麼出？班上20個同學，大家國、英、數、理化的能力高低都不一樣，英文出難了，對那個英文差的人不公平；數學出簡單了，對數學厲害的人不公平，所以出了考卷，全班20個同學，那麼多學生的專長不同，要維持排名不變，還要全員及格，你覺得這個老師有辦法做得到嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然很挑戰，我們當老師就是每天都在想這些事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這也是你的目標囉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然希望達到公平接軌跟信賴保護接軌。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我們先舉一個特別的案例，某家人壽目前在招親，希望人家欣賞他，但是這些標準在調控當中會影響到他待價而沽的表現，那你們怎麼辦？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我們想儘快把遊戲規則確定，以方便各方評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這裡面有寫到接軌ICS，保發中心說：RBC未達門檻的仍可個案申請，是這樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為新制度希望大家都能走一下，但是該兼顧到的公平，比如說以前的增資或是資本缺口還是不會因為接軌而消失。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛提到了，目前的要接軌新一代清償能力的過渡措施由保發中心在10月中要發布，10月中就快到了，主委認為承擔這個重責大任的出題老師可以達到你的目標嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們大概……"],["鍾委員佳濱：排名不變，大家都all pass？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在應該都已經在做法制作業了，應該是很快，快的話就這一、兩天會跟大家……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於這樣的結果，您保持怎麼樣的期待？樂觀？全班all pass，排名不變？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是有一家、兩家要補考？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想情況不一樣，容留明天或是這一、兩天再跟大家做報告，不過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要跟大家做報告，很好！"],["彭主任委員金隆：基本上如剛剛委員提到的，我們公平的接軌、信賴保護的接軌，因為我們是用一個更嚴格的標準，我們希望壽險業越來越好，很多市場解讀這樣是不是比較放寬，其實不是，就是因為我們新的制度很嚴格，所以我們要用一段時間讓壽險公司能夠調整往上走，就像爬階梯一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委，您過去是學生心目中的好老師，希望未來推出來的制度也能讓各家保險公司都認為您是個稱職的好主委，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我希望學生都變成好學生、優秀的學生，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","接下來我們請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edca9f02d8504987df8524a4fcb09fe33208b7b742ce6787900cdaf6cb2d6319c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:35:27 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我不對做預測但是我覺得這個事情剛剛早上也有其他委員也有詢問過就是說"},{"start":51.934,"end":76.195,"text":"今天這個事件主要是來自於美國一個總統的政策的消息面的影響我想台灣從4月2號開始已經經歷過非常非常多類似的經驗而且大家也比較知道就是說股市最終還是回歸到基本面我想這部分其實這也可以說明台灣的資本市場是"},{"start":77.156,"end":95.825,"text":"已經是相對是理性的那我們的投資人能夠消化各種的訊息做出判斷所以主委認為說這個我們的基本面是好的那我們的這個投資者這個是非常理性的就對了就是說至少這個資本市場是一個眾人意志的集合我想"},{"start":96.525,"end":119.477,"text":"就像我們也是剛剛才看到這個結果我想任何的預測都有它一些限制但是我們看到結果確實台灣的投資人表現出一個相對於理性其實我們看其他我們周邊也周邊國家的股市也大概也沒有像美國反映的那麼大那所以說今天這個結果股市這個結果對於主委來講比你預期的還要好"},{"start":120.357,"end":134.528,"text":"我沒有預期好與壞資本市場本來就會吸納各式各樣但是你對於我們的基本面跟我們投資者有信心就對了我覺得它就是一個大家能夠消化各種訊息做出這樣的判斷"},{"start":135.609,"end":160.987,"text":"那再請教一下主委因為就是股市一直漲上個禮拜是收在27000點其實算是創新高了那但是呢同時我們的這個傳統產業其實放無心價的也是越來越多了那就是說現在的股市榮景是集中在這個AI高科技產業像台積電和他的這個相關的產業那只集中在高科技的產業但是呢我們的傳統產業呢老實來講"},{"start":163.689,"end":173.976,"text":"在這一波關稅的影響之下放無薪價的越來越多那有人提出來說台灣經濟有非理性繁榮的前兆我想請問一下主委的看法"},{"start":174.861,"end":203.051,"text":"我想這個是大概我們很久以前有個很有名的經濟學家提出來的我想剛剛早上也有委員問說有沒有荷蘭病什麼之類的問題我想各位現在資訊非常的複雜非常的多元各種的說法都有就像我剛才提到有人會從一個過去歷史的經驗來看任何一個高點大家都會提到就是居安思惟一定是大家不過台灣的股市是集中在高科技IC產業"},{"start":204.251,"end":218.465,"text":"那造成這個股市創新高這個是目前上趨勢看起來是這樣子那相對來講傳統產業的確表現沒有像高科技產業這麼的表現這麼好嘛 對不對我想說主要是我們現在其實我也初步去看一下"},{"start":219.365,"end":246.578,"text":"這樣的現象不是只有台灣的資本市場股市是這樣因為現在越來越多的投資人是機構投資人有很多是比如說我們是ETF的市場它本質上它在選股上面就比較不會是一個所謂的就是按照這個消息面作為我想我的問題在於說就是說我們的高科技產業跟傳統產業有個落差是 當然那因為高科技產業它大概它的這一個就業人口大概是10%左右但是90%都是屬於中小微傳統產業"},{"start":248.159,"end":268.295,"text":"那就變成是說這樣子貧富差距會不會越大那如果未來說高科技產業有受到什麼影響的時候那是不是會造成這個有學者他所示警的就是說非理性繁榮的這個現象最理想的狀況當然是我們各行各業都很強大我想這是個理想的社會但是退而求其次我們至少還有一個強大或至少還有好"},{"start":269.136,"end":288.688,"text":"就好幾個強大也是一次個選項我們所要努力的就是說我們希望其他的產業能夠取而代之比如說能夠不是取而代之能夠變成所謂的護國群山就像我們在做那個比如說亞洲資產關係中心這個計畫的時候我們就希望說未來金融業能夠成為另外一個非常重要的產業來平衡這件事情我想這是我們"},{"start":290.369,"end":319.432,"text":"來做一個努力我們當然希望每個產業都能橫貧能夠因應各種的變化那再請教一下主委這個虛擬資產服務法那現在已經受到行政院了那有沒有列為我們的優先法案現在因為它還沒有出行政院的審查那據我所知應該是行政院審查完畢才會進入到我們的法案的排列那有沒有列為行政院的優先法案我們現在在全力推動中那有機會在本會期送來立法院嗎"},{"start":319.952,"end":345.946,"text":"其實我也期待能夠盡快的審議因為事後他還要經過那個執法的訂定那目前的這個審議的這一個行政院有在審議當中了嗎那有沒有一些比較困難點的地方其實據我所知同仁講說因為接下來我們的審查的政委現在換成另外新的政委我們也跟他做過簡報我想各個部會都提出他的一些的那個意見我們在整合中應該很快會"},{"start":347.086,"end":357.576,"text":"會再進行市政審查因為國發會主委換了會影響到進度嗎我想不會因為我們很快的就跟他做做整個法制的簡報而且行政院也"},{"start":358.698,"end":378.642,"text":"裡面也很多專家也不斷的已經在運作中我是希望說這個會期還是能夠送到立法院來我們也期待我們送出就希望能夠趕快完成立法請教一下主委你們9月份有公布了9家業者完成洗錢房子登記也獲得許可另外有18家不合格"},{"start":379.362,"end":401.082,"text":"現在就是說不合格就不能再經營虛擬資產的服務否則面臨兩年以下的刑責但是也有人認為說我們現在只管國內的但是有七成消費者是使用國際平台七成的國際平台沒有被納管因為我們現在洗錢防治法我們其實是有規定就是說"},{"start":404.025,"end":417.68,"text":"國外的幣商要透過國內落地或做分公司或是公司登記加上洗房登記跟能量登錄才能在國內落地否則就處以刑責那現在有關於這個國外的這個虛擬資產的這些管理公司我們有納管嗎有準備納管嗎要怎麼管"},{"start":420.143,"end":442.426,"text":"當然其實就我們在管理的架構裡面其實我們並沒有區分境外跟境內因為他比如他在台灣落地他就要在台灣設立相關的機構我想這部分我們是這樣但是現在剛剛委員提到應該是已經在國外運作這些那國人就可以透過網路世界他自己所以他們不用落地不是 他這樣"},{"start":443.527,"end":466.696,"text":"因為他沒有在台灣取得這樣一個許可他就沒辦法在台灣比如說做廣告他也沒辦法直接在台灣他有取得台灣的許可了嗎現在的話我們現在所謂的剛剛講幾個我們有國外來申請但是我們這是核准的部分我記得是不是有一家是有外資的我們這9家不是都是本土的嗎"},{"start":469.715,"end":491.232,"text":"對對對 現在這個九家八家原來是洗房生民的嘛那現在一家是後來新的這個九家都是本土的對啊 沒有國外的嘛那我的意思就是說現在國外的是可以做虛擬資產的服務但是它沒有納管應該這樣 它在境內的話要如果說要經過我們許可才可以在境內做這樣一個服務那它有經過許可嗎我剛才講這個是在"},{"start":493.801,"end":515.965,"text":"國界上像比如說我們如果說我們如果在國外旅遊在國外去買一個這個東西其實這樣我們就沒辦法或是我自己上網對 那我的意思是說那就是等於我們只納管國內的幣商然後國外的幣商我們沒辦法管理就對了這個要透過國際上面的一些合作再來他比如說在這邊的話我們的金融機構就沒辦法跟他做往來那會不會變成一個打仗的一個破口"},{"start":516.711,"end":532.421,"text":"對 這也是全球我們想政府都遇到的那我們要怎麼處理呢那我剛跟委員報告這除了我們自己可以透過我們自己來努力另外還是要透過跨國的合作對 我是認為說有關於這一個國外幣上的管理這部分我們現在好像是沒有"},{"start":533.151,"end":558.258,"text":"他可以未來假設這樣他也可以來台灣申請落地有啊 現在有很多國外的B商都有在台灣我看都有在做相關的服務啊其實如果委員仔細看的話那其實上他們來這邊是應該沒有同時實質的業務沒有實質的業務因為他只是可能在這邊台灣他是不能做的所以他們現在沒有任何的業務就對了不能做我們現在許可的這些業務"},{"start":559.258,"end":585.69,"text":"不能做現在許可的業務就對了其實委員可以想像一下就是比如他在海外比如說他的網站是沒有國界的對比如假設我們國人有能力他自己可以在海外有一個戶頭或是自己可以那我們未來對於這些國外的這些幣商有要做什麼樣的一些管理嗎我們當然也是希望說從一個整個綜合管理的概念裡面我們當然希望就像我們現在管理金融機構一樣我們也希望說國人至少在我們的"},{"start":586.63,"end":602.566,"text":"瑕疏範圍之內都能夠受到完整的保護對 當然是我們的期待對 我的意思是說因為我們現在只有規定國內的畢業商現在就是有9家是核可的對不對那其他18家不行對於國外畢業商我認為說這一塊好像"},{"start":604.048,"end":624.729,"text":"國外的第三套主要在台灣像全世界都一樣你要到我們台灣來登記有沒有一樣的道理那所以他們現在是有來登記對 我想我們的法規是open的並沒有說外國人不可以來那現在有多少家國外的B3會來做登記那現在的部分我們現在還在申請中的現在目前沒有目前沒有喔 目前沒有那為什麼不來"},{"start":625.951,"end":642.467,"text":"這要看他們當然不來登記就不能做相關的業務就對了他就是等於說必須要你必須要民眾自行去跨進去做這個服務透過網路我的意思是說這一塊有可能會形成打炸的一個風險"},{"start":643.588,"end":667.392,"text":"對 我們就會從這個角度因為我們會從我們可以管理到的金融機構的這些通路來做那確實我剛才講說因為我也再三強調在網路世界是沒有國界的對啊對 好 沒關係這又變成一個一個循環了就是說我是關心打造這一塊啦好 那反正再找時間再來請教好 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝彭主委謝謝李昭偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時35分）謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。上週美國川普總統認為中國宣布的稀土管制措施會成為談判的重要障礙，所以要加徵100%的關稅，大家也預期今天臺股有可能會大跌，但是到目前為止好像跌幅有收斂起來了。請教一下主委，是臺股的基本面好，還是國安基金有介入，還是臺灣的民眾、股民對於川普的談話已經免疫了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我還是一樣，不對那個部分做預測，這件事情早上也有其他委員詢問過，我覺得今天這個事件主要是來自於美國總統政策的一個消息面的影響。我想臺灣從4月2號開始已經經歷過非常非常多類似的經驗，而且大家也比較知道股市最終還是會回歸到基本面，我想這部分其實也可以說明臺灣的資本市場已經是相對理性的，我們的投資人能夠消化各種訊息做出判斷。"],["李委員坤城：所以主委認為我們的基本面是好的，然後我們的投資者是非常理性的就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：資本市場是眾人意志的集合，就像我們也是剛剛才看到這個結果，我想任何的預測都有它的一些限制，但是我們看到的結果，確實臺灣投資人的表現相對理性，其實我們看到周邊其他國家的股市，大概也沒有像美國反應那麼大。"],["李委員坤城：所以今天股市這個結果對於主委來講，比你預期的還要好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我沒有預期好與壞，資本市場本來就會吸納各式各樣他們所收到的訊息。"],["李委員坤城：但是你對於我們的基本面跟投資者有信心就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得大家能夠消化各種訊息做出這樣的判斷。"],["李委員坤城：好，再請教一下主委，因為股市一直漲，上個禮拜收在2萬7,000點，算是創新高了，但是同時我們的傳統產業放無薪假的也是越來越多了。現在的股市榮景只集中在AI、高科技產業，像台積電還有它相關的產業，但是我們的傳統產業老實講在這一波關稅的影響之下，放無薪假的越來越多，有人提出臺灣經濟有非理性繁榮的前兆，我想請問一下主委的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個大概是很久以前有個很有名的經濟學家提出來的，早上也有委員問有沒有荷蘭病之類的問題，現在資訊非常的多元，各種說法都有，就像我剛才提到，有人會從過去的歷史經驗來看，任何一個高點大家都會提到，居安思危一定是大家……"],["李委員坤城：不過臺灣的股市是集中在高科技跟IC產業，促成股市創新高，目前的趨勢看起來是這樣子，相對來講傳統產業的確沒有像高科技產業表現的這麼好，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我也初步看了一下，這樣的現象不是只有臺灣的資本市場、股市是這樣，因為現在越來越多的投資人是機構投資人，有很多比如說我們是ETF的市場，本質上他在選股上面就比較不會是按照消息面作為考量。"],["李委員坤城：我的問題在於我們的高科技產業跟傳統產業有落差。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然。"],["李委員坤城：另外高科技產業的就業人口大概是10%左右，但是90%都是屬於中小微傳統產業，這樣子貧富差距會不會越大？如果未來高科技產業有受到什麼影響時，是不是會造成有學者所示警的非理性繁榮現象？"],["彭主任委員金隆：最理想的狀況當然是我們各行各業都很強大，我想這是一個理想的社會，但是退而求其次，我們至少還有一個強大，或至少還有好幾個強大也是個選項，我們所要努力的就是我們希望其他的產業能夠變成所謂的護國群山……"],["李委員坤城：迎頭趕上就對了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就像我們在做亞洲資產管理中心這個計畫的時候，我們就希望未來金融業能夠成為另外一個非常重要的產業來平衡這件事情，這個部分我們來努力，我們當然希望每個產業都能衡平，能夠因應各種的變化。"],["李委員坤城：OK，我再請教一下主委，虛擬資產服務法現在已經送到行政院了，有沒有列為我們的優先法案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在因為它還沒有出行政院的審查，據我所知，應該是行政院審查完畢才會進入到我們法案的……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，那有沒有列為行政院的優先法案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在在全力推動中。"],["李委員坤城：有機會在本會期送來立法院嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我也期待能夠儘快審議，因為事後它還要經過子法的訂定，還要經過立法院……"],["李委員坤城：目前行政院有在審議了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有一些比較困難的地方？"],["彭主任委員金隆：據我所知，同仁說接下來審查的政委換成新的政委，我們也跟他做過簡報，各個部會也都提出了他們的一些意見，我們在整合中，應該很快會再進行實質審查。"],["李委員坤城：因為國發會主委換了嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["李委員坤城：好，會影響到進度嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想不會，因為我們很快地就跟他做整個法制的簡報，而且行政院裡面有很多專家，也已經不斷地在運作中。"],["李委員坤城：好，我希望這個會期還是能夠送到立法院來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也期待，我們送出就是希望能夠趕快完成立法。"],["李委員坤城：好，請教一下主委，你們9月份有公布了9家業者完成洗錢防制登記，也獲得許可，另外有18家不合格，現在不合格就不能再經營虛擬資產的服務，否則將面臨兩年以下的刑責。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：但是也有人認為我們現在只管國內的，另外有七成消費者是使用國際平臺，七成的國際平臺沒有被納管。其實我們洗錢防制法是有規定，國外的幣商要透過國內落地，做分公司或是公司登記，加上洗防登記跟能量登錄，才能在國內落地，否則就處以刑責。現在關於國外虛擬資產的這些管理公司，我們有納管嗎？有準備納管嗎？要怎麼管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實在我們的管理架構裡面，我們並沒有區分境外跟境內，因為比如它在臺灣落地，它就要在臺灣設立相關的機構，這部分我們是這樣做。但是剛剛委員提到的應該是已經在國外運作的這些……"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：國人可以透過網路世界自己……"],["李委員坤城：所以他們不用落地？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，因為它沒有在臺灣取得許可，它就沒辦法在臺灣，比如做廣告，也沒辦法直接在臺灣……"],["李委員坤城：它有取得臺灣的許可了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的話，我們剛剛講的幾個，有國外的來申請，但這是核准的部分，我記得是不是有1家是有外資的？"],["李委員坤城：我們這9家不是都是本土的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在這9家，有8家原來是洗防聲明的，1家是後來新的，這9家都是本土的。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，沒有國外的嘛，我的意思是現在國外的是可以做虛擬資產的服務，但是它沒有納管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該講它在境內的話，是要經過我們的許可才可以在境內做這樣的服務。"],["李委員坤城：它有經過許可了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才講的這個是在國界上，比如我們如果在國外旅遊，在國外去買這個東西，其實這樣我們就沒辦法……或是我自己上網。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說，那就是等於我們只能納管國內的幣商，國外的幣商我們沒辦法管理就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個要透過國際上面的一些合作。再來，比如它在這邊的話，我們的金融機構就沒辦法跟它往來。"],["李委員坤城：會不會變成打詐的一個破口？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我想這也是全球政府都會遇到的共同課題。"],["李委員坤城：我們要怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才跟委員報告，除了可以透過我們自己來努力，另外還是要透過跨國的合作。"],["李委員坤城：我是認為有關國外幣商管理的這部分，我們現在好像是沒有啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：假設這樣，未來它也可以來臺灣申請落地。"],["李委員坤城：有啊，現在有很多國外的幣商在臺灣，我看都有在做相關的服務。"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實如果委員仔細看的話，他們來這邊是應該沒有從事實質的業務。"],["李委員坤城：沒有實質的業務？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它可能在臺灣是不能做的，因為它沒有經過我們許可。"],["李委員坤城：所以他們現在沒有任何的業務就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不能做我們現在許可的這些業務。"],["李委員坤城：不能做現在許可的業務就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實委員可以想像一下，比如它在海外，當然，網站是沒有國界的。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：假設我們國人有能力，他們自己可以在海外有一個戶頭，或是自己可以……"],["李委員坤城：我們未來對於國外這些幣商，要做一些什麼樣的管理嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然希望從綜合管理的概念，就像我們現在管理金融機構一樣，也希望國人至少在我們轄屬範圍之內都能夠受到完整的保護，這當然是我們的期待。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是，我們現在只有規定國內的幣商，現在有9家是核可的，對不對？其他18家不行，對於國外幣商，我認為這一塊好像沒有在管。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，國外的幣商如果要來臺灣，全世界都一樣，要到我們臺灣來登記是一樣的道理……"],["李委員坤城：所以他們現在有來登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們的法規是open的，並沒有說外國人不可以來。"],["李委員坤城：現在有多少家國外的幣商有來做登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在還在申請中的……目前是沒有。"],["李委員坤城：目前沒有？他們為什麼不來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這要看他們，也許……"],["李委員坤城：他們不來登記就不能做相關的業務就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：等於民眾必須自行跨境去做這個服務。"],["李委員坤城：民眾自行……"],["彭主任委員金隆：透過網路。"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是，這一塊有可能會形成打詐的風險。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們會從這個角度，會從我們可以管理到的金融機構通路來做，確實如我剛才講的，我也再三強調，在網路世界是沒有國界的。"],["李委員坤城：好，沒關係，這變成一個循環了，我是關心打詐這一塊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，再找時間來請教，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝彭主委，謝謝李召委。"],["主席（李委員坤城）：我們接下來請鍾佳濱委員，下一位是黃珊珊委員，黃珊珊委員質詢完之後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164017","video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本席的諮詢重點是以人機無人機來強化救災建立平暫轉換的護國產業平時防災暫時支援從這一次其實無人機的運用是無遠弗屆那公務人員其實對新科技的理解應用想像其實是有限的我們就以這次花蓮為例有多少人力才可以撤離"},{"start":36.954,"end":56.876,"text":"無人機沒有所謂的交通時間無人機可以廣播無人機可以視察有哪些人民在屋頂上需要救援其實無人機整個掃一遍有多少人受困可以精準的任務派遣人力來救援而不是用車子去找人"},{"start":57.856,"end":73.505,"text":"時間就可以大大的節省提高救災的效率所以包括我們的關鍵基礎設施水電油我們一般平時的以無人機來做巡檢或者現在已經商業在運用的餐飲業旅館業甚至在機場"},{"start":74.485,"end":92.252,"text":"整個這個自動報到機其實都有無人送餐無人旅館還有這個自動報到機只要在裝上無人載具排了兩三百人我們的無人載具的這個自動報到機到現場都可以這樣的隨時的這個貼心的服務那如果在緊急狀態下全島"},{"start":95.414,"end":110.043,"text":"斷訊那無人機就可以全面的啟動發飛到這個平流層大概10距離我們地面10到50公里的高度通訊轉接基地站就可以來發揮所以本期也就針對這幾個議題全社會防衛的韌性應該徹底檢討"},{"start":116.126,"end":141.372,"text":"這個演習第一個我們爬出幾個事件從花蓮的馬太安的洪災感謝中央調度德儀結合軍民的力量調度物資與各縣市的機具讓產值超人不必孤軍奮戰一個月內也幫助了災民恢復正常生活第二個其中無人機扮演的重要角色從一開始的煙射服的檢測到國軍無人機的化學清消"},{"start":143.754,"end":153.051,"text":"以及這個消防署以無人機的空投物資衛福部的載運藥物展現了科技防災的雛形但是在今年"},{"start":154.537,"end":178.025,"text":"所以今天這個包括國防部我說我今天暫時幾個部會其實這是整個跨部會包括今年的城鎮任性演習包括全社會防衛的任性演習我們是看不到無人機的演習的也就是看不到軍方地方政府跟民間力量在無人機救災的合作導致今年的震災"},{"start":180.045,"end":200.146,"text":"地震風災水災除了花蓮在其他縣市都看不到中央如何運用無人機來救災好我談到我的高雄當然也看不到無人機今天7月底的時候高雄的六龜的南橫公路一家五口墜落三股報目前還有三個人失蹤其實就是為了一個"},{"start":201.647,"end":223.82,"text":"這是李姓一家帶女嬰就診那遇上了土石流所以其實像無人機結合遠距醫療能夠運送藥品與物資其實這個悲劇就不用產生好再看8月的桃園區高雄的桃園區的復興拉布蘭跟梅山三個里連日的好雨800人受困我們有"},{"start":225.041,"end":242.237,"text":"當地的民意代表用繩索拋送物資有居民冒險用摩托車載送在AI無人機發展當下部落的自救發生跟921當年的救災有什麼不同"},{"start":242.597,"end":267.452,"text":"沒有進步好到今年8月3號本席到高雄的美容高雄農場勘栽的時候發現到孕婦跟洗身病患急需醫療的資源我當下就要求設立醫療駐點的服務站如果無人機送藥機制能夠啟動就更可以降低醫療人員的負擔好那我們看民間無人機"},{"start":268.132,"end":296.765,"text":"政府的動作慢沒有一個無人機救災的整體思維的時候各界發起是如風起雲湧成大這個都有這個原住民的血統成大教授台邦他讚揚屏東台霧台鄉長巴正義這個首長啊涉水運送物資也認為首長涉險代表防災體系已經不足了政府在原鄉設置無人機救援"},{"start":297.465,"end":324.575,"text":"的機制讓部落面對極端氣候能夠自主救援再來這個也是有我們原住民學童的美和科大助理教授他今年3月投書他說這個無人機能在通訊中斷的時候成為空中的基地站將偏遠地區的災情及時傳出在我高雄市議會也提出了質詢在高雄偏鄉易受阻的區域與衛福部合作進行無人機"},{"start":324.915,"end":344.811,"text":"吸的演練讓科技救災不是口號包括我們自己在立法院李昆成李委員中嘉賓中委員在今年的就這個月的二日的時候呢他們也倡議無人機的送藥記者會應該要放寬航空管的法令限制讓災區居民可以呢"},{"start":345.391,"end":368.184,"text":"申請無人機的送藥應該更快更便捷好現在無人機的政策有沒有跟得上科技發展呢重點還是官方的思維跟整備工作無人機可作為空中基地站提供災區的即時通訊那當然這個以花蓮的這個馬太安的洪災來講當地多數的基地台受損了"},{"start":369.344,"end":388.373,"text":"電力三天才恢復那包括我的丹納斯颱風在嘉南地區更超過一個禮拜才恢復電力跟通訊系統所以其實靠的都是人力但是如果政府跟民間合作的話建立災害發生的臨時通訊網提供災民與救難團隊取得資訊管道"},{"start":390.374,"end":412.689,"text":"第二個也要跟上的就是整合AI跟無人機空拍機回傳空拍的災害 勘災影像及時判斷災害的這個程度 這邊有兩件事情我們都會怪總統 啊這個當來是颱風啊 你怎麼會去先看文旦呢沒有去看這個七股呢 這個其實我們的朝委是感受很深的那其實不能怪總統"},{"start":413.67,"end":440.478,"text":"因為我們的這個空拍看災的影像根本沒有建置也就沒有及時的信託讓總統知道哪裡是最嚴重所以導致先去看文旦而不是去看七五這個最嚴重的地方好那包括花蓮的馬太安政府也是一樣第一時間為人掌握整個破堤跟災區的嚴重的程度最嚴重的是佛祖街可是剛開始是什麼是在火車站"},{"start":441.218,"end":465.746,"text":"那反而是產值招人進去之後其實發現到窩主罪才是最嚴重所以光是這個在空拍看災影像的即時災害的判斷這個其實都可以透過無人機的大範圍的空拍透過AI的比對原來的地貌就可以讓決策者先判別災害嚴重的程度決定資源投入的優先順序"},{"start":467.116,"end":482.934,"text":"好在這邊建立官民合作的黃金救災72小時官民合作的救災72小時我要點的就是你們花了大把的錢建置了嘉義縣亞洲無人機研發中心這次是完全失敗"},{"start":483.855,"end":509.374,"text":"因為它受損了 基地受損了所以中央集中投入在這個嘉義縣的亞洲無人機結果風災毫無作為所以只有靠民力 你們也沒有啟動民力軍力有限 民力無窮 中央在這次特別預算當中規劃與民間無人機業者建立防災合作機制納入緊急採購開口合約這可能是公共工程委員會"},{"start":510.294,"end":520.5,"text":"這個因為整個行政院院本部沒有派代表第二個檢討城鎮任性的演習跟全社會的防衛任性演習納入今年的風災洪災的經驗模擬無電"},{"start":524.164,"end":551.226,"text":"無通訊無交通的情景這本席的要求這本席的要求要現在開始針對城鎮韌性的演習這是針對國防部跟內政部你的城鎮韌性的演習跟防衛你要開始演練了無電無通訊無交通的情境你怎麼因應用無人載具用於災情的判斷通訊的建立物資投放災損的勘察等工作再者"},{"start":552.407,"end":567.903,"text":"檢討無人機的政策從被動消極的公布進飛區轉向主動設置飛手的培訓考照的這個場域而且是要針對誰這個特別預算除了補助地方政府大專院校民間協會"},{"start":569.785,"end":584.473,"text":"這邊我講的是用特別預算今天是在講到特別預算你也要補助無人機的政策你要在人員的訓練單位地方政府大專院校民間協會你都要投入去做補助規劃什麼非手訓練地點"},{"start":585.774,"end":603.161,"text":"福島偏遠聚落跟區公所消防對消光人員取得無人機跟飛手陣仗也就是公務人員本身就要有具備這樣的一個飛手執照那他在哪裡訓練就要規劃出來不好意思主席最後我具體要求這四個單位"},{"start":604.201,"end":619.754,"text":"第一個行政院院本部那就請部長您帶回去行政院特別預算應用與協助地方政府建立民間無人機業者的合作機制不是只靠著國防部中科院"},{"start":620.234,"end":637.66,"text":"然後或者靠著嘉義當掉後全部沒有民間全部都沒啟動所以就延誤了我整個的花蓮正宅其實是可以更及時的更精確的然後提升這個救災防變能力國防部內政部聽好中央應主動在研習中導入最新無人機的技術"},{"start":638.36,"end":667.58,"text":"建立災情的勘栽臨時通訊物資藥物的載運等機制明年訓期前完成驗證國防部跟內政部等一下說明一下我要明年5月訓期前你就要跟我完成相關的驗證的這個驗證交通部各縣市跟偵測無人機飛手考照與培訓場地並鼓勵更多的政府機關與民眾取得證照名利無窮啊這是交通部主持"},{"start":668.641,"end":685.115,"text":"經濟部部長這是您忠忠之重我只要當立委的一天這個會期我講明的如果你沒有給我核定高雄國際AI無人產業中心你的預算一毛都不可能我都不可能讓你過無人機產業就是復國產業請張召本席在十天前對卓院長的質詢盡快設置高雄國際AI無人產業中心"},{"start":693.783,"end":716.541,"text":"直屬你部本部建立本土製造產業鏈是不是各部會是簡單主席可以讓國防部那種簡單的講一下他們要帶回去研究因為你講的那個他們可能也沒辦法去做很清楚的回應是不是我們會後我們一份報告你們的時程表到底什麼時候可以到達我們"},{"start":717.822,"end":739.93,"text":"林大華委員所講的這個標準的部分把時間表列出來然後送到我們委員的報告室好 那這樣好了市主席謝謝您的財事是不是我們能夠在一個月內請他們相關部會的規劃那我要求國防部內政部 交通部 經濟部在這個尤其國防部內政部 交通部在明年汛期前"},{"start":740.45,"end":764.299,"text":"完成相關無人機的一個整備工作包括他們各自所長那經濟部的部分就看你的動作你越快預算就有可能越快通過如果我即使是本黨的委員如果你沒有讓我成立這個高雄國際AI無人產業中心還是你還是聚集在這個這個嘉義的這個無人機的中心沒有分散的話我再講一次"},{"start":764.679,"end":767.71,"text":"你預算經濟部一毛都別想通過好 以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":848,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（10時32分）有請經濟部，先暫時請經濟部。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：林委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：本席的質詢重點是以無人機來強化救災，建立平戰轉換的護國產業，平時防災、戰時支援。無人機的運用無遠弗屆，公務人員對新科技的理解、應用、想像其實是有限的，我們就以這次花蓮為例，有多少人力才可以撤離？無人機沒有所謂的交通時間、無人機可以廣播、無人機可以視察有哪些人民在屋頂上需要救援，無人機也可以整個掃一遍看有多少人受困，然後精準的派遣人力來救援，而不是用車子去找人，時間就可以大大的節省，提高救災的效率。","包括我們的關鍵基礎設施、水、電、油，平時會以無人機來做巡檢；或者現在已經在商業運用的餐飲業、旅館業其實都有無人送餐、無人旅館；甚至在機場，自動報到機只要再裝上無人載具，即便排了兩、三百人，無人載具的自動報到機到現場都可以隨時的貼心服務；如果在緊急狀態下全島斷訊，無人機就可以全面啟動飛到平流層，大概距離地面10到50公里的高度，通訊轉介基地站就可以來發揮。","所以本席也就針對這幾個議題，關於全社會防衛韌性應該徹底檢討演習。第一個，我們爬梳幾個事件，花蓮的馬太鞍洪災，感謝中央調度得宜，結合軍民的力量，調度物資與各縣市的機具，讓鏟子超人不必孤軍奮戰，1個月內也幫助災民恢復正常生活；第二個，無人機扮演了重要角色，從一開始的堰塞湖檢測，到國軍無人機的化學清消，以及消防署以無人機空投物資、衛福部載運藥物，展現了科技防災的的雛形。","今天也包括國防部，我說我今天暫時請幾個部會，其實這是跨部會的，包括今年的城鎮韌性演習、包括全社會防衛韌性演習，我們看不到無人機的演習，也就是看不到軍方、地方政府跟民間力量在無人機救災的合作，導致今年的震災、風災、水災等等，除了花蓮，在其他縣市都看不到中央如何運用無人機來救災。","我談到我的高雄，當然也看不到無人機，今年7月底高雄六龜南橫公路一家5口墜落山谷，到目前還有3個人失蹤，其實就是李姓一家為了帶女嬰就診遇上了土石流，所以如果無人機能夠結合遠距醫療、運送藥品與物資，其實這個悲劇就不用產生。再看8月高雄桃源區的復興、拉布蘭跟梅山3個里，連日豪雨造成800人受困，有當地的民意代表用繩索拋送物資、有居民冒險用摩托車載送，在AI無人機發展當下，部落的自救方式跟921當年的救災有什麼不同？沒有進步！今年8月3號本席到美濃的高雄農場勘災時，發現到孕婦跟洗腎病患急需醫療資源，我當下就要求設立醫療駐點服務站，如果無人機送藥機制能夠啟動，就更可以降低醫療人員的負擔。","我們看看民間的無人機，在政府動作慢、沒有無人機救災的整體思維時，各界發起如風起雲湧，成大有原住民血統的教授台邦讚揚屏東霧臺鄉長巴正義涉水運送物資，也認為首長涉險代表防災體系已經不足了，政府應在原鄉設置無人機救援機制，讓部落面對極端氣候能夠自主救援；再來，也是有原住民血統的美和科大助理教授在今年3月投書，無人機能在通訊中斷的時候成為空中的基地站，將偏遠地區的災情即時傳出；在我高雄市議會也提出了質詢，在高雄偏鄉、易受阻區域與衛福部合作進行無人機的演練，讓科技救災不只是口號；包括我們自己在立法院，李坤城李委員、鍾佳濱鍾委員在這個月2日也召開無人機送藥記者會，倡議應該要放寬航空法令限制，讓災區居民申請無人機送藥可以更快、更便捷。","現在無人機的政策有沒有跟得上科技發展？重點還是官方的思維跟整備工作。無人機可作為空中基地臺、提供災區即時通訊，以花蓮馬太鞍洪災來講，當地多數的基地臺受損了，電力3天才恢復；包括丹娜絲颱風在嘉南地區更超過1個禮拜才恢復電力跟通訊系統，所以其實靠的都是人力。但是如果政府跟民間合作，建立災害發生的臨時通訊網，就可以提供災民與救難團隊取得資訊的管道。","第二個也要跟上的就是整合AI跟無人機、空拍機，回傳空拍的勘災影像，即時判斷災害程度。這邊有兩件事情，我們都會怪總統在丹娜絲颱風的時候怎麼會去先看文旦，沒有去看七股呢？這部分我們的召委是感受很深的，其實不能怪總統，因為我們根本沒有建置空拍勘災的影像，也就沒有即時的系統讓總統知道哪裡最嚴重，所以導致先去看文旦，而不是去看七股這個最嚴重的地方。包括花蓮的馬太鞍，政府也是一樣，第一時間未能掌握整個破堤跟災區的嚴重程度，最嚴重的是佛祖街，可是剛開始是什麼？是在火車站，反而是鏟子超人進去之後發現佛祖街才是最嚴重，所以光是在空拍勘災影像的即時災害判斷，這個其實都可以透過無人機大範圍的空拍、透過AI比對原來的地貌，就可以讓決策者先判別災害嚴重的程度、決定資源投入的優先順序。","關於建立官民合作的黃金救災72小時，我要點的就是，你們花了大把的錢建置了嘉義縣亞洲無人機研發中心，這次是完全失敗！因為它受損了、基地受損了，所以中央集中投入在嘉義縣的亞洲無人機中心在風災毫無作為，因此只有靠民力，你們也沒有啟動民力，軍力有限、民力無窮。中央在這次特別預算當中規劃與民間無人機業者建立防災合作機制、納入緊急採購開口合約，這可能是公共工程委員會的部分，不過行政院院本部沒有派代表。","第二個，檢討城鎮韌性演習跟全社會防衛韌性演習，納入今年風災、洪災的經驗，模擬無電、無通訊、無交通的情景，這是本席的要求，現在要開始針對城鎮韌性的演習進行演練，這是針對國防部跟內政部，關於城鎮韌性的演習跟防衛，你要開始演練了，模擬在無電、無通訊、無交通的情境，你要怎麼因應？將無人載具用於災情的判斷、通訊的建立、物資投放、災損的勘查等工作。再者，檢討無人機的政策，從被動消極的公布禁飛區，轉向主動設置飛手的培訓考照場域，而且是要針對誰？這個特別預算除了補助地方政府、大專院校、民間協會，這邊我講了是用特別預算，今天講到特別預算，你也要補助無人機的政策，關於人員的訓練單位，在地方政府、大專院校、民間協會，你都要投入去做補助，規劃飛手訓練地點，輔導偏遠聚落跟區公所、消防隊相關人員，取得無人機跟飛手證照，也就是公務人員本身就要有具備這樣的一個飛手執照，就要規劃出來他要在哪裡訓練。","主席，不好意思，最後我具體要求這四個單位，第一個是行政院院本部，就請部長帶回去，行政院的特別預算要應用於協助地方政府，建立與民間無人機業者的合作機制，不是只靠著國防部、中科院，或者靠著嘉義，當掉後卻全部都沒有，民間全部都沒啟動，所以就延誤了整個花蓮的賑災，其實這是可以更及時的、更精確的，提升救災防備能力。國防部、內政部聽好，中央應主動在演習中導入最新無人機的技術，建立災情的勘查、臨時通訊、物資藥物載運等機制，明年汛期前完成驗證，國防部跟內政部等一下請說明一下，明年5月汛期前，你就要完成相關的驗證。針對交通部，於各縣市增設無人機飛手考照與培訓場地，並鼓勵更多的政府機關與民眾取得證照，民力無窮，這是交通部主責的部分。而經濟部，部長，這是您重中之重，我只要當立委的一天，這個會期，我講明了，如果你沒有給我核定高雄國際AI無人產業中心，你的預算我一毛都不可能讓你過，無人機產業就是護國產業，請參照本席在十天前對卓院長的質詢，儘快設置高雄國際AI無人產業中心，直屬你部本部，建立本土製造產業鏈。主席，是不是請各部會可以簡單的講一下？讓國防部、內政簡單的講一下？他們要帶回去研議。"],["主席：岱樺委員，因為你講的那個，他們可能也沒辦法去做很清楚的回應，是不是請他們會後給我們一份報告、他們的時程表？到底什麼時候可以到達林岱樺委員所講的標準，把時間表列出來，然後送到我們委員的辦公室，這樣更清楚。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那這樣好了，主席，謝謝您的裁示，是不是能夠在一個月內，請相關部會來規劃，我要求國防部、內政部、交通部、經濟部，尤其國防部、內政部、交通部在明年汛期前，完成相關無人機的整備工作，包括他們各自所掌，經濟部的部分就看你的動作，你越快，預算就有可能越快通過，即使我是本黨的委員，如果你沒有讓我成立這個高雄國際AI無人產業中心，你還是聚集在嘉義的無人機中心，沒有分散的話，我再講一次，你經濟部的預算，一毛都別想通過，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。請各部會對於剛剛所提到相關職責的部分，一個月把計畫弄出來，deadline就是在明年汛期前，是否可以達到林岱樺委員所預期的效果，一個月先把這樣的資料給我們的委員會，也給林岱樺委員的辦公室，謝謝。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：我們現在先休息5分鐘，因為剛剛有宣告了，不好意思，謝謝。","休息（10時45分）","繼續開會（10時51分）"],["主席：現在請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們請部長來 有請部長就委員好部長好 我看好幾位委員都非常重視這個案子那最近這起百味食品漂白豬大腸的案件你開罰了五千四百萬那民眾吃進去的可能是工業用雙氧水那我想請問一下這樣的案子算不算重大的食安事件"},{"start":30.271,"end":55.649,"text":"跟委員報告這個目前在當然這個是我們不允許雖然說這個雙氧水算不算重大你只要回答是不是就好了以目前我們這個查驗到因為這個使用的普遍性很廣所以是大還是不大這是等於日常的這個大還是不大嘛所以我們很重視這件事情所以又啟動所有的專案那目前查起來呢那麼目前的"},{"start":57.971,"end":85.263,"text":"在市面上的食品都還是符合這個大腸我問你它算不算重大的這個食安案件嘛你講那麼多我們很重視這個案子但是目前來講不算大就對了 這還不算大所有的食安都是重大這個是人民的健康這麼嚴重的事情怎麼會不大呢所有的食安我們來看都是一樣大那為什麼我們今天在專報裡面一個字都沒看到"},{"start":86.97,"end":106.29,"text":"您的意思是你今天的兩份專報 食安辦這份報告雖然有寫跟沒寫差不多但是他們至少還有提那衛福部是一個字都沒有現在是工業用的化學品跑進食物裡面民眾吃下去會危害身體健康你們不用跟民眾說清楚嗎還是財閥單開完就好了"},{"start":107.631,"end":119.619,"text":"沒有 所有的食安事件我們都是認為都是一樣的重大為什麼這裡面沒有為什麼沒有寫啦為什麼沒有說明呢沒有輕重之分所有的食安事件我問你有沒有說明你跟我講輕重幹什麼"},{"start":122.301,"end":136.187,"text":"所以都不用寫就對了你不用跟國會交代你不用跟人民交代啊這麼嚴重的事情你不用跟國會交代嗎不用跟立法委員交代嗎我們是民意代表耶對啊 你為什麼裡面不說呢"},{"start":140.382,"end":162.086,"text":"我們都是看媒體啊看其他東西來的我們都是有一樣的重大沒有什麼輕重之分行政程序法裡面明確規定司法偵查中的案件若涉及公共利益或重大食安風險主管機關仍可適度的公開這個相關的資訊你不要告訴我剛剛有講說不要說因為剪掉介入之後然後你就把這事情蓋牌都不講對不對那這麼這麼"},{"start":165.807,"end":187.05,"text":"這麼重大的事情怎麼不算是食安的重大風險呢還是你覺得網上有公佈大概然後記者有問再回答就算交代了沒有這個跟委員報告我們就是認為他很重大所以呢在檢調雖然還在偵查當中但是我們就公佈了流向然後他到哪個地方去我們就公佈了有很多問題啊你那個話太多了而且講的都不是我要問的"},{"start":187.831,"end":196.703,"text":"那今天兩份報告在補強食安稽查人力的部分理論上數字應該是要一致的嘛但是食安辦寫報告報告裡面寫說本願於114年同意合爭食藥署預算員額大概20名"},{"start":205.555,"end":220.281,"text":"那衛福部說於2月27號霍仁市總署同意核增邊境查驗這個預算員24名所以我要問我要問一下這是以誰的為準還是你們各講一半還是合起來加起來是44人"},{"start":222.902,"end":246.416,"text":"我來做個說明 跟委員說明因為這個時額20人 4人是要就現有的去調整的這20還是24 總共是44就對了不是 總共是20人從院來看新增的是20人 4人是工作內容去調整的所以他是24人就對了"},{"start":248.896,"end":275.496,"text":"20人 新增的20人那另外的4人是希望食藥署就現有工作的內容去調配他需要24嘛我們合20但是我們只能夠所以你們還是新增20人就對了那你們兩份報告隔一天送進來結果連這個基本人數這個看都看不太懂那我想這個光這麼簡單的事情我們都可以寫得不太一樣我想問一下這些人力何時到位"},{"start":278.854,"end":304.915,"text":"我們現在24個人力的目前就是積極在爭取現在在已經陸陸續續都已經進入我們的北區的那加入之後我們的食安就可以安心了嗎我們針對上面的人力我們跟地方其實共同因為我看到每一次食安的事情發生的時候我們都先檢討人力啦 對不對所以我們認為只要把人人事人員安排好就可以解決食安的問題是這樣嗎"},{"start":306.238,"end":315.723,"text":"跟委員說明當然不全然只是人力的問題還有包含我們制度上的檢討還有運用一些科技的執法方式這個都要一併做檢討"},{"start":316.906,"end":343.515,"text":"好 我現在再講啦 回到這個今天的問題根據目前的資料我們立泰肉店從6月份跟百威食品進豬大腸嘛那目前資訊是在8、9月間百威食品涉嫌用低價購買的有問題的豬大腸再用工業用漂白水去去味那10月2號食藥署接貨通報然後會同檢調去搜查所以這件事是民眾檢舉才發現的嗎"},{"start":345.627,"end":367.459,"text":"對這一個案子是民眾檢舉的好那我今天要講就是說我們很多事情都要靠民眾檢舉那就表示我們食安五環裡面的前四環都失效了那強化源頭沒做到重建生產沒落實加強茶葉沒抓到加重責任等檢舉這花幾百億打造的食安五環結果還是要靠民眾來檢舉"},{"start":369.795,"end":387.296,"text":"第五環是靠全民監督你們應該改成全民救援吧跟委員報告其實前幾環他有他的角色因為他的整個登錄系統的完備那麼一方面讓業者不敢亂蠢動因為這個上下可以勾擊"},{"start":388.177,"end":401.466,"text":"那第二個呢我們從這個大數據裡面也可以發現及時的發現一些高風險然後進行中央跟地方的聯合稽查它還是有它的功能可是還是會有像這樣的漏網之類的請問一下 食安辦我們的許主任"},{"start":404.537,"end":422.113,"text":"你是行政院層級的負責跨部會的這個統整的單位屏東這次百威食品漂白豬大腸農業部說土體都有合格證明但檢方卻查到便便的這個豬大腸被漂白後販售那請問到底這是哪個地方出錯應該這樣來"},{"start":424.952,"end":454.355,"text":"是農業部誤判合格土地還是那些病變豬場根本就不是從合法屠宰場出來的他不是一個病變的情況那我讓我講一下從頭農業部在合法的屠宰場經過獸醫師的檢查之後屠宰出來出場的都是一個合法的並不是說從病死的然後從場外進來的所以在這一案裡面他的這個豬場的來源是正常的那因為豬場他算是一種"},{"start":455.056,"end":461.975,"text":"排內臟裡面是很髒的它可能還有糞便還有別的所以要經過清洗之後那為什麼檢方會這樣講"},{"start":464.231,"end":491.047,"text":"檢方為什麼會這樣講檢方為什麼會這樣講他可能有一點誤會因為這裡面那個腸子內外一開始的時候是要經過一個各種很多次的去清洗的然後還有味道所以雙氧水很可能是用來除味道的這個措施所以整個它過程是這樣子那審計部報告講得很清楚政府為了控管化學物質的"},{"start":492.368,"end":500.717,"text":"這個流向從105年開始建立化學園那到113年8月底你們有沒有跟勞動部的化學品報備平台這個比對過"},{"start":503.522,"end":525.461,"text":"有沒有比對過委員好 這邊跟委員做進一步的說明針對我們現在化學署裡面建置的所謂跨部會化學物質的資訊平台食藥署這邊我們有化學物質流向鏈接跨部會的資訊系統跟化學雲選定化學物質我們做了串接所以我們化學雲的部分選擇了19項化學物質"},{"start":527.543,"end":551.801,"text":"另外跟食品可疑的部分有62這個漂白水算嗎 有沒有含在裡面漂白水 雙氧水它用途極廣所以原先我們從來沒有發生過這樣的議題所以它沒有被列入所謂的化學那未來會不會列入我想這部分我們在積極在研議當中是否因為它牽涉的因為它在購買 我這樣講它今天是用我們這一家公司叫什麼"},{"start":552.721,"end":557.488,"text":"百威嘛 百威 他是用百威食品去購買這個工業用漂白水嗎"},{"start":559.135,"end":586.585,"text":"應該是 他是用他的這個有確定是嗎那我們這樣 我在這邊建議啦就是說當他有這種 他是食品公司嘛他買這種東西 買工業用漂白水的時候這個時候我們的系統就要自動示警就要示警 然後讓我們的人員去查嘛這個能夠注意到有這樣的事情是不是他買這麼大量他到底用在哪裡 對不對是不是要進一步的了解我想這個 我希望你們繼續努力啦"},{"start":587.205,"end":607.663,"text":"不要說我們食安 各位委員報告就是說我們跟這個環境部那個化學雲有合作的關係那因為這個雙氧水等於是第一次發現這個狀況所以我們會考慮把它列入在我們這其實很多東西很多食物我認為很多人都會之前也聽到很多用漂白水洗過的吧對不對"},{"start":608.684,"end":623.742,"text":"他為了賣相 漂白鹹是可以用的只是不能夠用工業級的他明明知道不可用才用是錯在這裡對所以我想他所以你工業用的漂白鹹本來就要管控嘛不是嗎對不對食品的級的我們都有積極的管理"},{"start":624.588,"end":647.464,"text":"好啦 最後我這樣講啦 因為時間的關係我要求這個執行是你們食藥署跟地方稽查人員那第一請食安辦在一個月內提出跨部會整合這個時程表現在三個系統各做各 就算有串聯啦我希望你們把一些該列入的都把它列入"},{"start":648.444,"end":671.857,"text":"如果讓我們這個稽查人員在這個稽查的時候能夠直接跳出警示不要全部都人工在核對那第二請你們建立預警的機制啦就是說剛剛我們講了就是說這些東西只要跑到這個食品鏈裡面我希望你們自動把它這個警示出來讓我們底下人好做事好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":400,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時30分）主席好，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["石部長崇良：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我看好幾個委員都非常重視這個案子，最近這起百威食品漂白豬大腸的案件，你開罰了5,400萬，民眾吃進去的可能是工業用雙氧水，我想請問一下，這樣的案子算不算重大的食安事件？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當然目前這個我們是不允許的，雖然說雙氧水是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：算不算重大？你只要回答是不是就好了。"],["石部長崇良：以目前我們查驗到，因為這個使用的普遍性很廣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是大還是不大？"],["石部長崇良：等於是日常的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：大還是不大嘛？"],["石部長崇良：我們很重視這一件事情，所以又啟動所有的專案……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它不算大嗎？"],["石部長崇良：目前查起來，在市面上的大腸食品都還是符合標準啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我問你它算不算重大的食安案件嘛，你講那麼多。"],["石部長崇良：我們很重視這個案子，但是目前來講……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不算大就對了，這還不算大啊？"],["石部長崇良：所有的食安都是重大，我們不會有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個是人民的健康，這麼嚴重的事情怎麼會不大呢？"],["石部長崇良：我們來看所有的食安都是一樣大。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那為什麼我們今天在專報裡面一個字都沒看到？"],["石部長崇良：您的意思是？"],["邱委員鎮軍：你今天的兩份專報，食安辦這份報告雖然有寫跟沒寫差不多，但是他們至少還有提，而衛福部是一個字都沒有。現在是工業用的化學品跑進食物裡面，民眾吃下去會危害身體健康，你們不用跟民眾說清楚嗎？還是裁罰單開完就好了？"],["石部長崇良：沒有，所有的食安事件我們認為都是一樣的重大，沒有什麼輕重。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼這裡面沒有寫啦？為什麼沒有說明呢？"],["石部長崇良：沒有輕重之分，所有的食安事件不分輕重。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我問你有沒有說明，你跟我講輕重幹什麼？"],["石部長崇良：就沒有輕重，所有的食安事件我們都一樣重視啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以都不用寫就對了？"],["石部長崇良：對，每一件都是一樣重大。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不用跟國會交代、你不用跟人民交代啊？"],["石部長崇良：每一件都是一樣的重大。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這麼嚴重的事情，你不用跟國會交代嗎？不用跟立法委員交代嗎？對不對？我們是民意代表耶！"],["石部長崇良：一定要跟委員報告，沒問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，你為什麼裡面不說呢？我們消息都是看媒體，看其他東西來的，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：我們都是一樣的重大，沒有什麼輕重之分啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：行政程序法裡面明確規定，司法偵查中的案件若涉及公共利益或重大食安風險，主管機關仍可適度公開相關的資訊，你不要告訴我剛剛有講，不要說因為檢調介入之後，然後你就把這事情蓋牌都不講。"],["石部長崇良：不會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這麼重大的事情怎麼不算是食安的重大風險呢？還是你覺得網上有公布了大概，然後記者有問再回答就算交代了？"],["石部長崇良：沒有，跟委員報告，我們就是認為它很重大，所以檢調雖然還在偵查當中，但是我們就公布了流向，它到哪個地方去我們就公布了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我很多問題，你話太多，講的都不是我要問的。今天兩份報告在補強食安稽查人力的部分，理論上數字應該是要一致的，但食安辦報告裡面寫說：本院於114年同意核增食藥署預算員額20人；而衛福部說：於2月27號獲人事總處同意核增邊境輸入查驗預算員額24名，所以我要問，這是以誰的為準？你們各講一半？還是合起來、加起來是44人？"],["許主任輔：跟委員說明，因為這個實額20人，有4人是就現有的去調整的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是20還是24？"],["許主任輔：新增……"],["邱委員鎮軍：總共是44就對了？"],["許主任輔：不是，總共是20人，從院來看新增的是20人，4人是工作內容去調整的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是24人就對了？"],["許主任輔：20人，新增的20人，另外的4人是希望食藥署就現有工作的內容去調配，它需要24我們核20，我們只能夠……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們還是新增20人就對了？"],["許主任輔：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們兩份報告隔一天送進來，結果連基本人數我都看不太懂，光這麼簡單的事情，你們都可以寫得不太一樣，我想問一下，這些人力何時到位？"],["姜署長至剛：我們現在目前積極在爭取24個人力，現在陸陸續續都已經進入我們北區的稽查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：加入之後，我們的食安就可以安心了嗎？就可以放心了嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：針對上面的人力，我們跟地方其實是共同，所以整體的稽查人力……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到每一次食安事情發生的時候，我們都先檢討人力啦，對不對？所以我們認為只要把人事、把人員安排好就可以解決食安的問題，是這樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，當然不全然只是人力的問題，還有包含我們制度上的檢討，還有運用一些科技的執法方式，這個都要一併做檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，回到今天的問題，根據目前的資料，利太肉店從6月份跟百威食品進豬大腸，目前資訊是在8、9月間，百威食品涉嫌用低價購買的有問題的豬大腸，再用工業用漂白水去味，而10月2號食藥署接獲通報會同檢調去搜查，所以這件事是民眾檢舉才發現的嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對，這一個案子是民眾檢舉的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我今天要講的，我們很多事情都要靠民眾檢舉，那就表示我們食安五環裡面的前四環都失效了，強化源頭沒做到，重建生產沒落實，加強查驗沒抓到，加重責任等，花幾百億打造的食安五環，結果還是要靠民眾來檢舉，第五環是靠全民監督，你們應該改成全民救援吧！"],["石部長崇良：其實前幾環有它的角色啦，因為它整個登錄系統的完備，一方面讓業者不敢亂蠢動，因為上下可以勾稽嘛！第二個，我們從大數據裡面可以即時發現一些高風險，進行中央跟地方的聯合稽查，它還是有它的功能，可是還是會有像這樣的漏網之魚。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，食安辦許主任，你是行政院層級負責跨部會統整的單位，屏東這次百威食品漂白豬大腸，農業部說屠體都有合格證明，但檢方卻查到病變的豬大腸被漂白後販售，請問到底是哪個地方出錯？"],["許主任輔：應該這樣說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是農業部誤判合格屠體，還是那些病變豬腸根本就不是從合法屠宰場出來的？"],["許主任輔：不是，它不是病變的情況，讓我從頭講一下，農業部在合法的屠宰場，經過獸醫師的檢查之後，屠宰出來、出場的都是合法的，並不是說從病死的、從場外進來的，所以在這一案裡面豬腸的來源是正常的。因為豬腸算一種內臟，裡面是很髒的，可能還有糞便還有別的，所以要經過清洗之後，它整個過程……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼檢方會這樣講？"],["許主任輔：檢方為什麼會這樣講？他可能有一點誤會，因為這裡面腸子內外……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以那腸子是沒有問題？"],["許主任輔：一開始的時候，是要經過各種、很多次去清洗的，然後還有味道，所以雙氧水很可能是用來除味道的措施，整個過程是這樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：審計部報告講得很清楚了，政府為了控管化學物質的流向，從105年開始建立化學雲，到113年8月底，你們有沒有跟勞動部的化學品報備平臺比對過？"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。跟委員做進一步的說明，針對我們現在化學署裡面建置的跨部會化學物質的資訊平臺，食藥署這邊我們有化學物質流向鏈結跨部會的資訊系統，跟化學雲選定化學物質做了串接，所以我們化學雲的部分選擇了19項化學物質，另外跟食品業者可疑的部分有62……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以漂白水算嗎？有沒有含在裡面？"],["姜署長至剛：漂白水、雙氧水用途極廣，原先我們從來沒有發生過這樣子的議題，所以它沒有被列入化學……"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來會不會列入？"],["姜署長至剛：這部分我們在積極研議當中，因為它牽涉的的確是廣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為它在購買……我這樣講，它今天是用百威食品去購買工業用漂白水嗎？"],["石部長崇良：應該是，它是用它的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有確定是嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我在這邊建議，它是食品公司嘛，當它買工業用漂白水的時候，這時系統就應該要自動示警，要有示警機制，然後讓我們的人員去查嘛，能夠注意到有這樣的事情，他們買這麼大量到底要用在哪裡，這是不是要進一步的了解？我希望你們繼續努力，不要說我們食安……"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們跟環境部化學雲有合作的關係，因為這次雙氧水的部分，等於是第一次發現有這個狀況，所以我們會考慮把它列入在我們的風險……"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實很多東西、很多食物，我認為很多人都會……之前也聽到很多用漂白水洗過的吧，對不對？為了賣相好……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，漂白水是可以用，只是不能夠用工業級的，他明明知道不可用還用，是錯在這裡，所以他在這個部分是不應該的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以工業用漂白水本來就要管控嘛，不是嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：食品級的我們都有積極的管理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦。最後，因為時間的關係，而執行的是你們食藥署跟地方稽查人員，所以我要求第一，請食安辦在一個月內提出跨部會整合時程表，現在三個系統各做各的，就算有串聯，我也希望你們把一些該列入的都列入，讓我們的稽查人員在稽查的時候能夠直接跳出警示，不要全部都是人工在核對。第二，請你們建立預警機制，就是剛剛我講的，這些東西只要跑到食品業裡面，我希望你們自動把它警示出來，讓底下的人好做事，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","現在休息5分鐘。蘇召委跟黃召委兩位虎視眈眈對著我，所以沒辦法。快點！謝謝。","休息（10時41分）","繼續開會（10時52分）"],["主席：請趕快就座，兩位召委虎視眈眈一直在看著你們。","現在請蘇清泉召委來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc1978551b16051f0c524a4fcb09fe33208b7b742ce67879007a419371ec2b560b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:23:59 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金管會最近引起很多的民怨民眾在網路上表示說金管會的打詐根本沒有考慮到實務的部分那這個從六月份"},{"start":20.848,"end":32.356,"text":"就開就有17家的銀行這個停止這個不希望這個警示帳戶的增加這個政策所以呢就停止受理民眾使用自然能憑證開立這個帳戶那"},{"start":37.538,"end":57.737,"text":"現在就是因為金管會打詐措施沒有考慮到食物的部分所以民眾可能因為要領薪水所以會有一個新轉戶那當薪水進到帳戶他們把薪水轉到自己的其他帳戶像是信用卡一些帶腳的一些水電或這樣的一個過程就被銀行認為說他們在洗錢"},{"start":59.218,"end":74.726,"text":"帳戶就被封鎖民眾打電話去銀行解釋說也沒用希望銀行能夠恢復但是銀行端的恢復都是說這是AI偵測的結果他們也沒辦法解鎖要民眾等三到六個月"},{"start":75.886,"end":91.671,"text":"三天都不能等那個柴米油鹽薑醋茶小孩子的學費還有一些每天所睡的這些支付那麼多還要三個月所以民眾的錢都卡在那邊不能動造成大家這麼大的困擾"},{"start":92.731,"end":110.774,"text":"有的上班族學生他們為了要解鎖還特地請假到銀行端這邊去解釋但是這樣子也銀行這邊也沒辦法幫他解鎖所以這個問題是非常嚴重的我記得我們上個會期就有討論過這個事情上個會期就是說"},{"start":112.115,"end":136.775,"text":"金管會已經表示說針對這個風險控管的措施一定要兼顧這個比例原則所以我們剛剛提到就是因為不符合比例原則所以這個全能考量這個服務安全性不希望看到銀行去風險性的處理結果現在各大銀行都沒有聽進去就是因為怕被沒有做好沒有按照金管會的指示所以這個被裁罰所以"},{"start":138.796,"end":167.237,"text":"錯殺一百沒關係反正就是這麼做反而真正受害的都是我們這些民眾你們要封鎖的這些這些可能涉及洗錢的涉及詐騙的這些都沒有找到反而讓他們逍遙法外所以這個亂象我想要請教主委你要怎麼樣去來處理這個事情是 謝謝委員給我這個機會來向國人說明我想剛才講的第一個委員剛才講的帳戶可以分成兩類一個是由"},{"start":169.478,"end":188.323,"text":"檢調機關涉控的比如說警示賬戶跟衍生賬戶這部分是金融機構只是被動的協助他們做這個我們沒辦法去解控那是要跟那個檢警這邊去做申訴另外一個是我們去年通過打詐專法以後特別賦予金融機構可以自我管控的部分"},{"start":188.863,"end":213.276,"text":"我想我也應該關心的是這個對 自我管控自我管控是因為我們去年打詐專法發表說我們的警示帳戶那都是有了詐騙的人以後已經被詐騙了那是一個比較被動事後的概念所以打詐專特別給說那幾種機構如果你有這個能力有這個辦法判讀出已經有高度危險的帳戶你可以進行不是全部都是手控它可以部分或是一些"},{"start":213.996,"end":239.249,"text":"就是來做進一步的查證我想這不就是剛才委員提到民怨的部分我也跟委員報告就是警示賬戶在過去來講一直都是我們在詐騙上面一個非常重要的工具我們從110年初的時候我們大概只有6萬6千個警示賬戶但是我們經過我們在不斷地去努力的話以前每個月將近每個月都會增加將近3千個賬戶今年年初"},{"start":240.39,"end":258.557,"text":"已經來到了15萬這部分這也是為什麼我們這個詐團不斷地利用這些比如說閒置或是一些是帳戶這非常非常嚴重所以我們開始採取這個措施的時候我們到9月的時候這個開始首度出現了負成長比如我們從今年3月來看的話"},{"start":259.457,"end":284.193,"text":"我們過去大概只有10家銀行是下降現在來到25家警視帳戶下降代表說我們的管控是有效的但是剛剛講委員剛剛指正的我們會虛心的檢討就是說請他們講說我們不會因為說有這樣的比如說這樣我們就停止這個我想柵團也很希望我們這麼做管控當然沒有錯但是我講的就是老民的部分你看看這張圖這個部分"},{"start":286.997,"end":297.738,"text":"民眾八月份就被鎖一次所以他到銀行去解鎖然後都會標明轉帳的用途結果在轉帳小朋友的學費的時候又被鎖了"},{"start":298.464,"end":320.24,"text":"又被鎖了當初在台灣Pay在推出的時候主打就是小額交易免手續費所以很多民眾都來使用現在繳學費也被鎖用Line Pay買東西也被鎖所以只要AI覺得有問題的都會被鎖既然是AI覺得有問題的可能都是這一些"},{"start":321.201,"end":348.38,"text":"不是實際上有問題的AI覺得有問題 結果沒問題那怎麼辦 是不是AI有問題所以你們的政策系統有沒有修正有沒有做一些什麼樣的一個檢討其實跟委員報告我們並沒有要求公司怎麼做是我們只是要求他好好管控你的警示帳戶各家公司他們自己的政策自己的方法來做像剛才講說有些公司他可能在AI的這個標準的所控上面不對我們立刻就請他來做一個"},{"start":349.921,"end":351.867,"text":"了解跟改善所以我們現在是希望他們"},{"start":353.092,"end":380.809,"text":"只要有這個狀況一定要非常的去精準去調教你這個東西而且我們要求這個每家都要設24小時的專線而且你必須要把這個東西把這個物控的這些經驗分享給其他同業所以我想這個問題會改善但是我們主柵的決心不變但是方法要好好來打柵主柵當然這個主要目標不能變但是就是說我們剛剛提到就你要提高精準度"},{"start":383.373,"end":407.466,"text":"這個我們一定會全力來努力你會造成我們民眾很多的不便像剛剛提到很多的這個上班族或者是學生他們的這個銀行就被鎖住了鎖住之後他每天要支出要使用的他不能用那不能用他到銀行端去解釋又不能獲得馬上的一個改善那這樣子的時候他就變成這不只是擾民這會變成說他是一個我們打詐"},{"start":409.787,"end":433.866,"text":"的一個受害者我們希望盡快的取得一個平衡但是確實我剛才講跟委員報告我們民眾的帳戶被炸團使用的比率持續在增加這件事情確實是我們在打炸中一個非常重要的重點我剛才講我們做這些確實也看到已經達到成效但是方法的部分我們一定要好好來精進"},{"start":435.088,"end":449.626,"text":"這個提高精準度 落實比例原則不要讓銀行因為害怕金管會的裁罰所以把這些成本轉嫁到一般的民眾身上這是今天在這邊跟主委要求的主委 這個多久能夠改善"},{"start":450.146,"end":465.053,"text":"一個月內能不能夠改善其實我們持續都在改善因為我們會一個要求像我們也要求銀行公會他們打詐委員會你們好好針對這件事情做經驗的分享因為只要有一個案子這樣出現我們希望這個不要再重複好"},{"start":466.033,"end":480.752,"text":"那就請主委盡力盡快好不好這個月內那接著再請教主委金寶法納管13家13家這個融資主任公司在9月15號已經正式上路了那預計一年半的時間要納管41家"},{"start":481.593,"end":496.698,"text":"但是融資公司專法這邊金管會態度還是保留沒有對 上次主委有特別跟我說明過那我知道但是即便因為已經納管部分的這些融資主任公司但是他們的態度"},{"start":497.996,"end":512.277,"text":"這個部分還是沒有辦法讓人家接受啦因為現行的金保法當中沒有規定這個融資業者的負責人業務人員吹售人員的資格就是因為這部分所以可能會有不當的人員用"},{"start":513.118,"end":535.339,"text":"不合法的這種手段催債我最擔心的就是說詐騙的問題因為融資公司可能他跟詐騙集團詐團他只是一線之隔尤其詐團先以假投資的方式來詐騙民眾榨乾他的存款之後再慫恿他抵押房地產去借款"},{"start":535.839,"end":557.787,"text":"那這種案件層出不窮每天都在發生每天都發生所以我想民眾對於融資公司的專法是因應的期盼那現在雖然有金寶法納管部分的融資公司但是金寶法在納管之餘有沒有說持續計畫融資公司專法的推動這個主委我想你要我也很"},{"start":558.907,"end":579.443,"text":"很肯定你對於我們台灣金融產業的一個發展是非常的盡心盡力但是保護民眾資產更是一個非常重要的一個責任當然所以說尤其融資業法推動聯盟也希望你們每個月可以公布三項數據就是畫面上這三項"},{"start":580.544,"end":600.294,"text":"那這三項數據的要求金管會可不可以公佈我想我們平益中心的董事長也在這邊我想其實這樣看起來的話我覺得應該我初步來看我覺得應該沒有問題好 可以啦好 謝謝啦那主委我再請教因為會去跟融資公司借款的人"},{"start":600.934,"end":620.157,"text":"基本上都是比較急著要用錢他可能就是信用小白還是信用不好有些是弱勢團體那融資公司涉及到的借款問題對於這些急著用錢的往往容易讓他們陷入一個高風險的一個借貸的借款的一個圈套"},{"start":621.238,"end":645.226,"text":"那這些借款人可能也沒有足夠的能力去分辨說融資公司是否真的符合法規規範也難以知道自己會不會被強迫接受不合理的條件所以在這樣子的一個詐騙的問題上面然後融資公司假設他跟詐騙集團之間的界線很模糊在一線之隔有可能他們這些不法分子就會跟這個詐團來合作"},{"start":647.307,"end":671.419,"text":"對於民眾產生了二次傷害所以我希望就是說金管會能夠加快推動我們融資公司專法的立法進程對於這些不法的行為進行徹底的清除可以嗎 主委其實我想上次也跟委員報告過我覺得我們現在該做的是如何加強融資消費者的保護而不是對融資業者的保護所以我想這部分我們會朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝主委 謝謝"},{"start":672.947,"end":678.517,"text":"好 謝謝主委 謝謝嚴委員接下來有請李委員昆城召委質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時23分）主席、各位同仁，大家早。主席，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。主委，金管會最近引起很多民怨，民眾在網路上表示金管會的打詐根本沒有考慮到實務的部分，從6月份就有17家銀行因為警示帳戶增加，所以就實施停止受理民眾使用自然人憑證開立帳戶的政策。但是金管會的打詐措施沒有考慮到實務的部分，民眾因為要領薪水所以會有一個薪轉戶，當薪水進到帳戶，他們把薪水轉到自己的其他帳戶，或是信用卡代繳水電的過程，就被銀行認為他們在洗錢，帳戶就被封鎖，民眾打電話去銀行解釋也沒用，希望銀行能夠恢復，但銀行端的回復都說這是AI偵測的結果，他們也沒辦法解鎖，要民眾等3到6個月。但這是3天都不能等的，柴、米、油、鹽、醬、醋、茶，小孩子的學費還有每天瑣碎的支出那麼多，解鎖還要等3個月，民眾的錢都卡在那邊不能動，造成大家這麼大的困擾。有的上班族、學生為了要解鎖還特地請假到銀行端去解釋，但是銀行這邊也沒辦法幫他們解鎖，所以這個問題是非常嚴重的，我記得我們上個會期就討論過這個事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：金管會已經表示，針對風險控管的措施一定要兼顧比例原則，我們剛剛提到，就是因為不符合比例原則，所以權衡考量服務安全性，不希望看到銀行去風險性的處理，結果現在各大銀行都沒有聽進去，就是因為怕沒有做好、沒有按照金管會的指示，所以被裁罰，錯殺一百也沒關係，反正就是這麼做。但反而真正受害的都是這些民眾，你們要封鎖的這一些可能涉及洗錢的、涉及詐騙的都沒有找到，讓他們逍遙法外。針對這個亂象，我想要請教主委，你要怎麼樣去處理這個事情？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員給我這個機會來向國人說明，委員剛剛講的帳戶可以分成兩類，一個是由檢調機關設控的，比如警示帳戶跟衍生帳戶，金融機構只是被動的協助他們做這個，我們沒辦法去解控，那是要跟檢警去做申訴。另外一個是，去年通過打詐專法以後，特別賦予金融機構可以自我管控的部分，我想委員關心的應該是這個。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，自我管控。"],["彭主任委員金隆：自我管控是因為去年打詐專法時發現，我們的警示帳戶都是已經被詐騙了，那是一個比較被動、事後的概念，所以打詐專法特別提到，金融機構如果有能力或辦法判讀出已經有高度危險的帳戶，就可以進行，但不是全部都鎖控，而是可以部分或是一些……就是做進一步的查證，我想這部分就是剛才委員提到的民怨部分。我也跟委員報告，警示帳戶在過去來講，一直都是我們在詐騙上面一個非常重要的工具，從110年初的時候，大概只有6萬6,000個警示帳戶，但是經過我們不斷地努力，以前每個月都會增加將近3,000個帳戶，今年初已經來到了15萬，詐團不斷利用這些閒置或是一些帳戶，這非常、非常嚴重。所以我們開始採取這個措施，到9月的時候首度出現了負成長，比如從今年3月來看，過去大概只有10家銀行是下降，現在來到25家警示帳戶下降，代表我們的管控是有效的。但是委員剛才指正的，我們會虛心檢討，就是我們不會因為這樣而就停止，我想詐騙集團也很希望我們這麼做……"],["顏委員寬恒：管控當然沒有錯，但我講的就是擾民的部分，我們先看看這張圖，民眾8月份就被鎖一次，所以他到銀行去解鎖，然後都會標明轉帳的用途，結果在轉帳小朋友學費的時候又被鎖了。當初台灣Pay在推出的時候，主打的就是小額交易免手續費，所以很多民眾都來使用，但現在繳學費也被鎖，用LINE Pay買東西也被鎖，只要AI覺得有問題的都會被鎖，如果AI覺得有問題的可能都是這一些，而不是實際上有問題的，AI覺得有問題，結果沒問題，那怎麼辦？是不是AI有問題？你們的偵測系統有沒有修正？有沒有做一些檢討？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們並沒有要求公司怎麼做，我們只是要求他們好好管控他們的警示帳戶，各家公司依自己的政策、自己的方法來做。像剛才講的，有些公司可能在AI標準的鎖控上面不對，我們立刻就請他來做了解跟改善，所以我們現在希望他們只要有這個狀況，一定要非常精準地去調校這個東西，我們要求每家都要設24小時的專線，而且必須要把誤控的這些經驗分享給其他同業。我想這個問題會改善，我們阻詐的決心不變，但是方法要好好來……"],["顏委員寬恒：關於打詐、阻詐，當然這個主要目標不能變，但是就如我們剛剛提到的，要提高精準度啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個我們一定會全力努力。"],["顏委員寬恒：這會造成民眾很多的不便，像剛剛提到的，很多的上班族或是學生，他們的銀行帳戶就被鎖住了，鎖住之後，他們每天要支出、要使用就不能用，不能用，他們到銀行端去解釋，又不能獲得馬上的改善，這樣子就變成不只是擾民，更讓他們變成是打詐下的受害者。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們當然希望儘快取得一個平衡，但是確實如我剛才講的，民眾的帳戶被……"],["顏委員寬恒：一個月內可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：民眾帳戶被詐團使用的比率持續在增加，這件事情確實是我們在打詐中一個非常重要的重點，我剛才講過，我們做這些確實也看到已經達到成效，但是方法的部分，我們一定要好好來精進。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，提高精準度、落實比例原則，不要讓銀行因為害怕金管會的裁罰，所以把這些成本轉嫁到一般的民眾身上。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：這是今天在這邊跟主委要求的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委，這個多久能夠改善？一個月內能不能夠改善？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們持續都在改善，因為我們會有一個要求，像我們也要求銀行公會在打詐委員會好好針對這件事情做經驗分享，只要有一個案子出現，我們希望不要再重複。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，請主委盡力、儘快，好不好？一個月內。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：接著再請教主委，金保法納管13家融資租賃公司，在9月15號已經正式上路了，預計一年半的時間要納管41家，但是對於融資公司專法，金管會的態度還是保留……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["顏委員寬恒：上次主委有特別跟我說明過，我知道，即便已經納管部分的融資租賃公司，但是他們的態度還是沒有辦法讓人接受，因為現行的金保法當中沒有規定融資業者的負責人、業務人員、催收人員的資格，就是因為這部分，所以可能會有不當的人員用不合法的手段催債。我最擔心的就是詐騙的問題，因為融資公司可能跟詐騙集團只是一線之隔，尤其詐團先以假投資的方式來詐騙民眾，榨乾他的存款之後，再慫恿他抵押房地產去借款，這種案件層出不窮，每天都在發生，所以我想民眾對於融資公司專法是殷殷期盼。現在雖然有金保法納管部分的融資公司，但是金保法在納管之餘，有沒有持續計畫融資公司專法的推動？主委，我也很肯定你對於臺灣金融產業發展是非常的盡心盡力……"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：但保護民眾資產更是一個非常重要的責任。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：尤其融資業法推動聯盟也希望你們每個月可以公布三項數據，就是畫面上的這三項，關於這三項數據的要求，金管會可不可以公布？"],["彭主任委員金隆：評議中心的董事長也在這邊，其實這樣看起來的話，初步來看，我覺得應該沒有問題。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，可以啦！謝謝。主委，我再請教，因為會去跟融資公司借款的人，基本上都是比較急著要用錢，他可能是信用小白或是信用不好，有些是弱勢團體。融資公司涉及到的借款問題，對於這些急著用錢的，往往容易讓他們陷入一個高風險的借款圈套，這些借款人可能也沒有足夠的能力去分辨融資公司是否真的符合法規規範，也難以知道自己會不會被強迫接受不合理的條件。在這樣子的詐騙問題上面，假設融資公司跟詐騙集團之間的界限很模糊，在一線之隔，有可能他們這些不法分子就會跟詐團合作，對民眾產生了二次傷害，所以我希望金管會能夠加快推動融資公司專法的立法進程，對於這些不法的行為進行澈底的清除，主委，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：上次也跟委員報告過，我覺得我們現在該做的是如何加強對融資消費者的保護，而不是對融資業者的保護。"],["顏委員寬恒：是，沒有錯。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以這部分我們會朝這個方向來努力。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：謝謝主委，謝謝顏委員。","接下來有請李坤城召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc7ddf220e6027391385f90000f7f2f0ab8b7b742ce67879002cfcc21c557743ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:22:27 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楊俊凡議員 邀請部長哪位部長經濟部長經濟部長 謝謝兩位好"},{"start":21.431,"end":48.33,"text":"部長好本席一再強調提升災後韌性它不能只是說而不做那麼進度我們應該要好好的來討論來精進那這一次你們所提出的這個專報呢引起了可以說是這一次的天災讓全民很憂心那也包括了政府的動作慢半拍民眾的屋頂遭毀損"},{"start":49.851,"end":76.24,"text":"斷卵 斷電 這些呢救援要等很久所以可以說是我們要改進的地方還很多本期在之前發生的時候就跟院長也跟您討論過也提醒過我們必須要好好的努力來精進來檢討而不是只有用嘴巴喊而不是用文宣去宣它就能夠提升所以我們希望"},{"start":77.34,"end":100.758,"text":"這樣子慘痛的經驗能夠讓我們好好的來討論讓未來更好本期要看到這一次的風災好雨不只是網路方面很多的媒體都明白的提出也告訴我們有很多許多的不足的地方那所以我也希望政府要好好的接受這樣子的一個"},{"start":101.619,"end":127.525,"text":"指教那同時不要只有諱莫如生那我希望的應該是虛心接受才能夠真正的改進所以本席首先要請教救災的基層人員非常非常的辛苦我們一定要全力的來支持這些基層工作人員不管他是加班搶休等等但是本席說了災前的預估人力"},{"start":128.405,"end":152.753,"text":"以及災後實際人力的一個配備到底我們怎麼做我們怎麼做這個就是應該是主管應該做好的而沒有做好而沒有做好所以本席在這邊要請教未來因應災害以及分區緊急應變能量是否足夠我們檢討的結果要怎麼樣改進請做說明"},{"start":155.531,"end":179.811,"text":"經濟部主管的部分主要還是盡量的趕快電的部分趕快搶修完畢還有水的部分盡量趕快供那這個也就是基層同仁包括台水公司跟台電公司他們第一時間當這個停電的時候他們就出動那我們也預估也從其他的部分調派很多的這些工作人員來共同進了災區來做一些協助"},{"start":180.356,"end":203.225,"text":"那主要搶修的部分就是主要是水跟電的部分就進一步來說 答案給民眾的也就網路媒體所批評的我們是還有很多不足的地方所以如果依照你目前的回答你根本沒有檢討跟進進方案的本性我希望你要注意聽也要好好的回答我們"},{"start":204.265,"end":227.712,"text":"希望在基層的第一線非常的辛苦我們要怎麼樣讓他們能夠得到最好的後援而且你在整個系統裡頭分布的人力配比要能夠夠就誠如你剛剛所說的我們希望在有重大災害的時候你應該建立跨部會的即時災情報告系統"},{"start":228.732,"end":248.71,"text":"那麼建立一正式的聯繫窗口民眾才不會吹沒人啊他才不會不知道立即即時的一個訊息資源也才不會不知道跑到哪裡去不管在電力 抽水政府不能無頭蒼蠅式的你應該要有救災的SOP流程提升"},{"start":249.511,"end":274.583,"text":"你的整個協調的能力所以本席要請教 針對於中央部會在資訊的一個整合跟這一次就在應急不及的時候你們到現在為止 你的進行方案是什麼報告委員 因為災害發生的時候本來中央就有應變中心 那當然是在台北但是我們在台南有設立了前進組委會部長 請你針對本席的回答"},{"start":275.203,"end":292.686,"text":"本來就在台北本席告訴你我們碰到重大的災難的時候你們要怎樣去調整你的腳步請你書面資料給本席那針對於我們的店的部分呢這是非常的重要因為影響到醫療 民生"},{"start":293.427,"end":322.532,"text":"还有我们的整个安养机构这些都这一次受到很大的冲击在这样影响之下我大概看到你们的报告微型电网的系统那么本席也了解一下根据你台电的资料需要告诉我们微型电网呢微电网简单来说它就是一个区域性的概念它要将整个的电网来结合它的发电它的除电它的能源管控跟它的控电设备的系统是的"},{"start":323.012,"end":348.816,"text":"就等於是一個小型的發電的一個整合中心那麼同時我們也看到就是說一旦停電那必須微電網進入它自主供電這時候微電網的網路就如同是一般是一個微型的供電系統它可以自給自足供電將近72小時提供整個區內的用電的負載量那請問你們的計畫是如此嗎請做說明"},{"start":352.137,"end":378.235,"text":"是的原則上是的那我們會先因為經費實在有限我們先選大概九個地方示範區域九個區域來示範你們也請各縣市去做盤點那本席要告訴你我台中有很多的偏遠地區一旦停電他沒有辦法立即來達到救援這些都是非常需要所以我的台中的像本席所說的這樣的狀態有沒有在你們的範圍"},{"start":381.817,"end":383.678,"text":"台中必須要建構進來讓一些偏遠的沒有辦法及時救援到的都必須要做 是不是如此"},{"start":399.082,"end":425.145,"text":"那你們現在九個區塊在哪裡因為我們跟地方要合作的時候也要看它緊急的收容中心在哪裡那那邊有沒有你們現在預估的九個區塊在哪裡請針對本席的問題提問還在持續增加目前來講談好是九個但是還會持續增加九個區塊是什麼舉例你談好了你告訴本席嘛應該是比如說像這一次災害比較嚴重的比如說嘉義啊"},{"start":426.187,"end":448.933,"text":"或哪裡台南比較嚴重的地方但是我們也同意就是說如果有同意台中必須要有這樣的一個建構我也請你們相關單位一定要妥善因為這個對民眾民生來講是很重要的所以本席接下來要請教農業部跟部長在這裡最後一個議題"},{"start":450.333,"end":466.775,"text":"在台美談判的部分我們也看到部長您到了美國去採購但是我們要請問對於美豬產地的來源以及來機的檢驗方式都是被美國視為是貿易障礙那你會讓步嗎請教部長"},{"start":469.845,"end":492.338,"text":"我跟委員報告就是兩件事情就是我們去美國採購的東西都是台灣飼料生產所需的就是黃豆 玉米 小愛本集清楚 所以請教好 那相對的針對未來談判因為在持續進行那我們一定是確保糧食安全然後產業的永續發展跟我們確保我們農民的權益這三個前提之下我們持續在談判"},{"start":493.218,"end":518.607,"text":"談判那豬的部分像您這邊寫的豬的部分牛的部分我們相關的進口我們現在是符合現在的一個檢測的一個規範在執行美豬產地的來源來機的檢驗方式美方認為是貿易障礙這個絕對不能讓步本席告訴你第二個美牛的進口你會進一步開放甚至全面開放嗎我方的立場"},{"start":519.434,"end":534.721,"text":"我想我們現在目前整個談判還在進行但是我們針對確保糧食安全的部分我們一定會就是因為談判還在進行所以本席告訴你一定不能讓步然後我們的稻米跟雞肉你會零關稅嗎"},{"start":538.015,"end":560.85,"text":"因為你只有告訴我們你會保障我們國內的產業但是如果零關稅一定會衝擊到所以我們一定要告訴政府要怎麼樣真正的保障我們的食安跟我們的本土的一個國產我跟委員報告道明是我們糧食安全非常重要的一個品項好就是因為非常重要所以一定要保障"},{"start":564.647,"end":576.132,"text":"針對我們的食安跟我們的國產絕對要得到最大的一個保障這是我們基本立場對不對了解好謝謝謝謝楊卓英委員的資訊 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":798,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時22分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：哪位部長？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：經濟部部長。"],["主席：請經濟部部長，謝謝。"],["龔部長明鑫：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。本席一再強調，提升災後韌性不能只說而不做，針對進度我們應該好好來討論、精進。關於這一次你們所提出的專報，這次的天災可以說讓全民很憂心，也包括了政府的動作慢半拍，民眾的屋頂遭毀損，斷網、斷電，這些救援要等很久，所以我們要改進的地方還很多。本席在之前災害發生的時候，就跟院長及您討論過、也提醒過，我們必須要好好努力來精進、檢討，而不是只有用嘴巴喊、用文宣去宣就能夠提升，所以我們希望這樣慘痛的經驗能夠讓我們好好地來討論，讓未來更好。本席看到，對於這次風災、豪雨所造成的影響，不只是網路方面，很多的媒體都明白地提出，也告訴我們有許多不足的地方，所以我也希望政府要好好地接受這樣的指教，同時不要只有諱莫如深，我希望應該虛心接受，才能夠真正地改進。","本席首先要請教，救災的基層人員非常非常地辛苦，我們一定要全力支持這些基層工作人員，不管是加班、搶修等等，但是本席說了，災前的預估人力及災後實際人力的配備到底我們怎麼做？這個應該是主管機關應該做好而沒有做好的，所以本席在此要請教，未來因應災害及分區緊急應變能量是否足夠？檢討的結果要怎麼樣改進？請做說明。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，經濟部主管的部分主要還是儘量在電的部分趕快搶修完畢，還有水的部分儘量趕快供水，這些都是基層同仁、包括台水公司及台電公司，在第一時間停電的時候他們就出動了，我們也從其他的部分調派了很多工作人員共同進入災區做一些協助。就經濟部來說，搶修的部分主要是水及電的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，給民眾的答案，也就是網路、媒體所批評的，我們還有很多不足的地方，所以依照你目前的回答，你根本沒有檢討及精進方案給本席，我希望你要注意聽，也要好好地回答。","在基層的第一線非常辛苦，我們要怎麼樣讓他們能夠得到最好的後援，而且在整個系統裡頭，分布的人力配比要能夠足夠。就誠如你剛剛所說的，我們希望在有重大災害的時候，應該建立跨部會的即時災情報告系統及一站式的聯繫窗口，民眾才不會找不到人，才不會不知道立即、即時的訊息，資源也才不會不知道跑到哪裡去。在電力、抽水的部分，政府不能無頭蒼蠅式的，應該要有救災的SOP流程，提升整個協調的能力。所以本席要請教，針對中央部會在資訊的整合及這次救災應急不及的時候，你們到現在為止的精進方案是什麼？請做說明。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為災害發生的時候，本來中央就有應變中心，雖然是在臺北，但是我們在臺南有設立了前進指揮所……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，請你針對本席的問題回答。本來就在臺北……"],["龔部長明鑫：跨部會協商……沒有，前進指揮所在臺南……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你，碰到重大災難的時候，你們要怎麼樣調整腳步，請你提供書面資料給本席。"],["龔部長明鑫：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對電的部分，這是非常重要的，因為影響到醫療、民生、整個安養機構，這些在這次受到很大的衝擊。在這樣的影響之下，我大概看到你們的報告提到微型電網的系統，本席也了解了一下，根據台電的資料，簡單來說，微電網就是一個區域性的概念，將整個電網結合發電、儲電、能源管控及控電設備系統，就等於是一個小型的發電整合中心。同時，我們也看到一旦停電，必須進入自主供電，這時候微電網的網路就如同是一個微型的供電系統，可以自給自足供電將近72小時，提供整個區內用電的負載量。請問，你們的計畫是如此嗎？請做說明。"],["龔部長明鑫：原則上是的，因為經費實在有限，我們先選大概9個地方、示範區域，先來處理……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：9個區域來示範？"],["龔部長明鑫：示範。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們也請各縣市去做盤點？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要告訴你，我們臺中有很多偏遠地區，一旦停電，他們沒有辦法立即達到救援，這些都非常需要，所以我們臺中像本席所說這樣的狀態有沒有在你們的範圍？本席強力要求一定要納入！"],["龔部長明鑫：是，如果區公所也好或是什麼，他們真的有這樣的想法，我們可以跟他們接洽。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺中必須要建構進來，讓偏遠的、沒有辦法即時救援到的都必須要做，是不是如此？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們現在這9個區塊在哪裡？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為我們跟地方要合作的時候也要看它緊急的收容中心在哪裡、那邊有沒有太陽能發電設施……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們現在預估的9個區塊在哪裡？請針對本席的問題、提問。"],["龔部長明鑫：還在持續增加。目前來講，談好的是9個，但是還會持續增加。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：9個區塊是什麼？請舉例。你談好的是什麼，你告訴本席嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：比如像這次災害比較嚴重的嘉義或臺南，就是比較嚴重的地方。但是我們也同意，如果有願意的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：同意臺中必須要有這樣的建構？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我也請你們相關單位一定要妥善處理，因為這對民眾、民生來講是很重要的。"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席接下來請教農業部最後一個議題，部長在這裡。在臺美談判的部分，我們看到部長到美國去採購，但是我們要請問，對於美豬產地的來源及萊劑的檢驗方式都被美國視為貿易障礙，請教部長，你會讓步嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告兩件事情，我們去美國採購的東西都是臺灣飼料生產所需的，就是黃豆、玉米、小麥，我們的自給率非常低……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席清楚，所以請教……"],["陳部長駿季：相對地，因為談判在持續進行，我們一定是在確保糧食安全、產業永續發展及農民權益這3個前提之下持續談判。像您簡報上寫的豬的部分、牛的部分，我們相關的進口是符合現在檢測的規範在執行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對美豬產地的來源、萊劑的檢驗方式，美方認為是貿易障礙，本席告訴你，這個絕對不能讓步。","第二個，美牛的進口你會進一步開放甚至全面開放嗎，我方的立場？"],["陳部長駿季：目前整個談判還在進行，但是針對確保糧食安全的部分，我們一定……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是因為談判還在進行，所以本席告訴你，一定不能讓步！","我們的稻米跟雞肉會零關稅嗎？因為你只有告訴我們你會保障我們國內的產業，但是如果零關稅一定會衝擊到，所以我們一定要告訴政府要怎麼樣真正保障我們的食安跟我們本土的國產。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，稻米是我們糧食安全非常重要的一個品項，如同我剛才講的，我們一定會確保糧食安全。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就是因為非常重要，所以一定要保障，我們的食安跟我們的國產絕對要得到最大的一個保障，這是我們基本立場，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","我們請林岱樺委員質詢，林岱樺委員質詢完休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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有沒有"},{"start":151.949,"end":173.146,"text":"有或沒有他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用但是呢我們初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有"},{"start":173.939,"end":193.661,"text":"他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部"},{"start":195.163,"end":211.312,"text":"能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是事證不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心"},{"start":212.333,"end":231.446,"text":"到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候呢其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移"},{"start":231.986,"end":259.964,"text":"因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才"},{"start":260.825,"end":286.98,"text":"前院委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國會不會通風暴行會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級 工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧水 純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加呢我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者"},{"start":289.701,"end":315.569,"text":"臨知故犯做了這件事情我們不允許但他可能潛在的風險我相信我們不願意他存在但是他對於查到這樣子黑心的業者神之語法更重於其他的一切所以我有這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的一個裁量你剛剛的這樣的說法但是你為求證據的保全你相信保七總隊你前前後後浪費了四個月的時間"},{"start":317.009,"end":344.119,"text":"才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間"},{"start":345.759,"end":368.439,"text":"發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的"},{"start":369.119,"end":397.495,"text":"你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊 你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查 查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦 部長你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例"},{"start":398.075,"end":418.925,"text":"来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获"},{"start":419.745,"end":445.727,"text":"即使因為我們介入之後而沒有辦法讓檢調收集到足夠的證據而沒有辦法繩之以法但是我們至少保障了國人的安全這個才是最重要我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來你是衛福部我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安而不是有利檢調去偵辦這兩者如果必須取捨的時候當然是食安第一優先"},{"start":446.568,"end":474.547,"text":"你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品嘛我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的"},{"start":475.347,"end":495.496,"text":"你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導 先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開罰"},{"start":496.556,"end":514.099,"text":"该怎么罚就要怎么罚你们现在的罚款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我们整个食品业我们就是不能让劣币进来发现劣币就是驱逐我们要确保我们的食安就是这样我们奖励优良的"},{"start":514.74,"end":529.84,"text":"願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強"},{"start":530.601,"end":552.228,"text":"另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了就是食品業者自主管理的機制 坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料 辦成品 成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做"},{"start":553.427,"end":568.207,"text":"就是第七条当时就是一个希望业者可以自律的条款但是食安法已经通过这么多年了我要问的是如果他是不良业者他从来没有针对他的原料搬成品成品在做检验"},{"start":569.246,"end":587.856,"text":"你市交署會知道嗎你衛福部知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個"},{"start":590.537,"end":607.424,"text":"針對業者自主管理機制第7條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個"},{"start":609.245,"end":636.04,"text":"稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態啦那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法"},{"start":636.4,"end":662.379,"text":"好我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品他要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題"},{"start":663.88,"end":668.834,"text":"你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整"},{"start":670.493,"end":693.841,"text":"因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個這是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題"},{"start":698.283,"end":713.594,"text":"这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药"},{"start":714.495,"end":738.545,"text":"但是他在原廠藥都是過了專利期所以他都有其他的學名藥所以他考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在他專利期內他是獨大所以他藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降他最後就會轉移他的生產線所以像這個百優解 千優解都是這樣考量"},{"start":738.905,"end":756.551,"text":"他是不再製造了他就因為學名藥太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得"},{"start":757.551,"end":782.618,"text":"每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面的只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有"},{"start":783.038,"end":798.284,"text":"那那个是瑞士的药厂他停产但是我们就找到那个日本的一个药厂他就是学名药所以未来就会以这个来做取代所以这个只要能够提早通报那大概我们都可以处理得来不会造成"},{"start":798.404,"end":826.082,"text":"因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段期間所以我希望這個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長你過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好 謝謝委員"},{"start":828.101,"end":828.502,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時16分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["石部長崇良：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，黑心大腸的案件，事實上讓民眾非常地恐慌，因為它涉及到國民小吃──大腸麵線，連知名的阿宗麵線通通都中標，而且它的量坦白講是滿大的，所以剛剛提到了，如果6月就接到檢舉，你們什麼時候才下架、封存？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當然這個事件上的處理速度應該要更快啦！"],["王委員育敏：你們幾月下架、封存，你告訴我時間點？"],["石部長崇良：我們是從10月3號開始進行封存跟下架。"],["王委員育敏：你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎？如果6月檢舉，10月才下架、封存，整整四個月的時間，有多少無辜的臺灣老百姓吃下了泡有工業用漂白水的大腸？這個涉及到國人食安。第一個，我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架、封存的動作？按照處理食安的標準跟原則，如果6月份檢舉這麼的確切，而且有直指工業用的漂白水，食藥署直接到現場把大腸拿出來檢驗也很快就會發現，這需要檢調嗎？你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出它是不是含有工業級的漂白水，不是嗎？為什麼沒有做？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，其實我們當場去搜索、去驗的時候就驗過了，沒有雙氧水的殘留，但是……"],["王委員育敏：6月份沒有驗到？"],["姜署長至剛：不是6月份，我們後來10月1號去搜索的時候。"],["王委員育敏：10月1號也沒有驗到？"],["姜署長至剛：沒有驗到，但是它的標示裡面直接寫明工業用的雙氧水，這就明顯違反食安法裡面的食用級雙氧水。雙氧水在食用級裡面、在我們的食品添加物叫作殺菌劑，它是可用的，但是它用的……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，它不能用在食品。署長，我們要聽這部分的解釋。第一個，我要問的就是6月份的檢舉信函，他有沒有直指是使用工業用的漂白水，然後添加在大腸裡面，有沒有？有或沒有？"],["姜署長至剛：他當初提供的證據裡面，的確有提到是工業用的，但是我們初步去評估，屏東衛生局也有去了解案情的時候，衛生單位其實並沒有查獲相關的違規，所以……"],["王委員育敏：他有去查嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：對！"],["王委員育敏：第一時間他有進場去查？"],["姜署長至剛：並沒有。"],["王委員育敏：他有沒有進場查？第一時間，在地的衛生局跟南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，因為我們一開始6月份知道之後，針對這件事情，我們評估起來是重大的，所以我們跟保七總隊協作，同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部能夠做聯合的，所以一開始是沒有成案的，即使在保七等等的評估，考量在6月底的時候，他說是事證不足，但是在這個情形之下，我們持續與保七溝通之後確定，也因為陳情人非常非常的擔心，他希望我們給他完全的保護，後來檢察機構確切願意保護證人，所以才在7月3號成案。7月3號成案的時候，其實我們本來就訂在7月14號要做行政稽查，可是因為已經成案才會有時間上面的推移，而我只能講一件事情，如果今天面對這種非常嚴密的犯罪組織，高度的監視系統，風吹草動下，我相信行政稽查下去的力度對於這次能夠破獲，我覺得我自己也很擔心，有這樣子嚴密的……整個過程當中，最後去現場的只有食藥署，所以為什麼只有食藥署南區去？因為被選擇是相信的，就像剛才前面委員所提到的，擔心是不是有內部的內鬼，會不會有內神通外鬼？會不會通風報信？會不會有這些情形？所以嚴格嚴密的保持之下才能把他揭露。那你問我說為什麼這個案子會讓他……因為食品級、工業級與藥品級的雙氧水，都是雙氧水，但純度不同，風險也增加，這種增加我們是絕不允許的，可是這個業者明知故犯做了這件事情，我們不允許，但是它可能潛在的風險，我相信我們不願意它存在，但是對於查到這樣子的黑心業者，將其繩之以法更重於其他的一切，所以在這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的裁量。"],["王委員育敏：署長，你剛剛這樣的說法，你為求證據的保全，你相信保七總隊，你前前後後浪費了4個月的時間才把這件事情……你覺得證據充足了，然後把這個業者逮到，但是你沒有想過你的食安風險，你讓全國民眾在這4個月的空窗期吃下了多少工業級雙氧水所漂白出來的大腸，這樣的得失之間，你真的認為你們這一件事情這樣是做對了嗎？沒有更好的辦法嗎？事實上，在食安法裡面最重要的精神是，第一時間發現有問題的產品，你可以預防性的下架，可以採取封存，這個是在食安法裡面的最高精神，為什麼？食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題，而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品，在過去很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的，你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候，你要封存、你要下架，不是讓檢調查，查到這個業者跑不掉的時候，然後4個月過去了，這樣是有問題的，部長，你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，這件事情其實部長有特別提醒我們，我們對這個部分的行政檢討會積極去做一些修正，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：來，我要求部長回答，部長，你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題？"],["石部長崇良：這整個處理過程確實有瑕疵，所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例來做檢討，從檢舉到後面整個作業要重新調整它的SOP，不要因為移送檢調之後，反而讓我們的行政作為延緩下來，以國人健康為首要要務。"],["王委員育敏：當然。"],["石部長崇良：那麼要不要破獲？即使因為我們介入之後，沒有辦法讓檢調蒐集到足夠的證據，而沒有辦法繩之以法，但是我們至少保障了國人的安全，這個才是最重要的。"],["王委員育敏：沒錯，我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來，你是衛福部，我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安，而不是有利檢調去偵辦，這兩者如果必須取捨的時候，當然是食安第一優先。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["王委員育敏：你就是要採取預防性的封存及下架，就是阻止國人吃到這個有問題的食品，我覺得這整個你們真的要回去好好澈底的檢討。","除了這件事情之外，就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有力有未逮的地方？看看現在針對整個食品業者，你們的輔導改善與罰款的比例事實上是偏低的，你們當然是覺得很善意，先輔導限期改善，不行的時候再來罰款，但是對於有一些像這一次黑心大腸他根本就是蓄意添加，對於這種惡意的食品業者，我認為你們的手法上面不能只是一再、一再的讓他改善而不敢開罰，該怎麼罰就要怎麼罰，你們現在的罰款比例只有0.43%，真的是偏低，整個食品業就是不能讓劣幣進來，發現劣幣就是驅逐，要確保我們的食安就是這樣，我們獎勵優良的、願意做到位的這些優良廠商，我們鼓勵大家來消費、來購買，但是這當中如果有這種劣幣，就是想要用劣質產品來獲取個人利益，我們不允許這樣的廠商存在，所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強。","另外一個，我要講監察院的調查報告，他現在就提到了食品業者的自主管理機制坦白講有漏洞，現在你們的食安法第七條是業者在原料、半成品、成品的檢驗項目都是讓業者自行評估安全風險，但是坦白講，你們根本不知道他有沒有做，第七條當時就是一個希望業者可以自律的條款，但是食安法已經通過這麼多年了，我要問的是，如果他是不良業者，他從來沒有針對他的原料、半成品、成品做檢驗，食藥署會知道嗎？衛福部知道嗎？坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做，連他有沒有在做你都不知道，因為他現在也不用送案備查，然後也不用登錄管理，因此你通通都不知道。所以這一塊監察院已經提出調查報告，認為你們現在針對業者自主管理機制的第七條是存在漏洞的，部長，你們要去調整嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，關於黑心業者，我們一定是嚴懲不貸，剛剛委員的指教我完全認同，所以對於稽查會強化，如果是惡意的、黑心的，那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分，我們一定就是按照他的影響層面給予重罰，所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法，讓業者不敢有僥倖的心態。"],["王委員育敏：那監察院調查報告的部分？"],["石部長崇良：至於監察院報告的部分，我們會來全面檢討，該修法我們就修法。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個部分是漏洞，我希望你們應該要研議。","最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題，這個也是國人很關切的，當然現在我們看到部長很快地提出說要提前通報、統一控貨，還有彈性藥價這三大措施，但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了，這次有47項藥品要退出臺灣市場，你們說不是藥價的問題，你們說是因應全球供應情形做出的調整，因應全球什麼調整？是嫌臺灣市場太小，還是覺得其他地方更有需求，所以先挪給其他地方？我聽不懂這句話的意思。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，就是我們對於說藥商如果它這個藥要停止供應就要事先通報，所以並不是代表缺藥，是說它未來在半年內可能停止供貨。"],["王委員育敏：不是，你們對外的新聞稿說……"],["石部長崇良：然後這47個藥，我們特別有去……"],["王委員育敏：你說不是因為藥價的問題，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對、對、對，這47……"],["王委員育敏：是因為全球供貨的問題？"],["石部長崇良：47個藥裡面我們有特別去問每個藥廠有沒有要提成本不敷、要調整，因為這裡面有24個藥是真正所謂原廠藥，但是原廠藥都是過了專利期，所以它都有其他的學名藥，所以考量到全球的區域都是這樣，這個藥廠在其專利期內是獨大，所以藥價都很高，等到過了專利期之後，因為學名藥就要進來，隨著學名藥越多，市場價格就會下降，它最後就會轉移生產線，所以像百憂解、千憂解都是這樣考量，他們不再製造了，因為學名藥太多了，他們不去處理這塊市場，轉移到其他新藥或專利藥的市場去，所以大概有些是產線的調整所造成，在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得，因為這個廠所在的國家其成本是不一樣的，所以他們會轉移，所以原廠這邊可能不做，比如說，我們現在這47個裡面只有一個藥是我們認為非要不可的，就是Cyclosporin的針劑，因為手術的時候沒有辦法吃Cyclosporin的口服藥，可是要用打的時候，手術的時候要用打的，所以那個一定要有，那個是瑞士的藥廠停產，但是我們就找到日本的藥廠，它就是學名藥，所以未來就會以這個來取代，因此只要能夠提早通報，大概我們都可以處理得來，不會造成缺藥。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為這個關乎國人用藥的問題，有些人在替換藥品的過程當中，他可能還要適應一段期間，所以我希望這一個部分，你所講的提前通報、統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到，未來不會有藥品突然缺藥導致民眾權益受損的問題。部長過去是這方面的專家，我希望……"],["石部長崇良：是，我們會來落實。"],["王委員育敏：你要好好的把它做好調控，好不好？謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。委員會在這邊宣告，等一下邱委員鎮軍詢答結束後休息10分鐘。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164012","video_url":"https: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在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統"},{"start":329.764,"end":351.689,"text":"或者是廣播系統出狀況了他們是會派動所有的區長啊那邊的所長啊甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮月看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場"},{"start":358.291,"end":376.742,"text":"那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報"},{"start":378.703,"end":398.773,"text":"現在我們的被變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息"},{"start":399.913,"end":426.579,"text":"那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考"},{"start":428.78,"end":454.28,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對 那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時"},{"start":458.243,"end":480.24,"text":"那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好"},{"start":480.74,"end":496.924,"text":"好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛曹惠委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那大家問他沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說"},{"start":500.265,"end":527.923,"text":"政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢"},{"start":528.483,"end":545.367,"text":"我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個"},{"start":555.989,"end":576.319,"text":"調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢"},{"start":579.781,"end":608.328,"text":"報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特授隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡"},{"start":609.128,"end":626.335,"text":"那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事"},{"start":637.239,"end":657.546,"text":"所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站"},{"start":659.026,"end":672.671,"text":"分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助"},{"start":682.515,"end":706.889,"text":"第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項"},{"start":707.449,"end":727.452,"text":"是啦我觉得这次真的是非常好的一个经验那最后还是要拜托部长我觉得这个大马村的王村长模式必须要建立这是我认为今天最重要的一件事情希望未来每一个社区都可以像王村长这样做到百分之百的撤离好我们会来努力好谢谢部长好谢谢王杰委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時12分）謝謝主席，我們先請農業部次長。"],["主席：請農業部次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：杜次長，早安。今天談到花蓮堰塞湖的事情真的非常難過，上週我也有去到現場，看到現場真的很震撼，也非常難過，我也是在那邊協助了一整天，也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的。","首先要先請教次長的還是精準造冊及弱勢方案撤離的事情，其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩，也有很多是行動不便或者是沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群。我看到農業部這一次是依照堰塞湖警戒監測及撤離演練方案，應該是依照這個原則進行撤離的，但是可以看到花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群，甚至可能所有的住戶都沒有精準造冊，導致第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上，甚至到後來對於災民，包括如何領便當、如何聯繫、如何提供物資，還有安置的方案等等，都變成沒有辦法進行。所以，精準造冊真的非常重要，尤其是裡面到底有哪些是弱勢族群，應該要優先挑出來的。","就剛剛次長的報告，其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群，甚至要提早進行撤離，這個其實我在高雄非常有感，因為我們在高雄做的，甚至是黃色警戒時就進行預防性撤離，而這個預防性撤離是知道這一戶家裡有人行動不便就派車去載，我們是做到這種程度。所以這一次讓我很難過的是，像這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間協助他們從家裡帶他們出來，這個非常非常的重要，甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊、第一時間不知道警報聲音，可能他聽不到，那這些人到底怎麼辦？","所以我在這邊建議，我看到你們的堰塞湖警戒監測及撤離演練方案，但是不是可以把它寫得更細？我指的寫得更細是說，像你們在土石流及大規模崩塌防災疏散避難作業規定裡面其實有寫到執行民眾疏散避難與收容，要協助弱勢族群疏散，其實是相對寫得比較細緻一點，所以我在這邊具體的建議，是不是堰塞湖的避難方案也把弱勢族群到底該如何疏散撤離的明確SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情可不可以來研擬？"],["杜次長文珍：這是應該要的，謝謝委員提醒。我想其實這次真的是沒人願意看到這樣的狀況，但是在如此慘痛的事情之後，我想接下來只希望能夠避免這樣的事情發生。對於相關的各項原則都有，但是應該要做到更精準地掌握跟落實執行，所以即便中央災害應變中心在9月21日成立後，我們就已經通知就弱勢族群請優先、趕快撤離，但是確實在不管資訊的掌握上面、名冊也好，或是怎麼去疏散這塊，我想將來都還有再精進的空間，確保人員的安全保障這塊，其實是所有防災中最重要的事情。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託次長，因為我在這邊也真的不想再究責誰，也不想說這個部分是中央還是地方的責任，既然現在有發現事情如果可以做得更好，或許可以挽救更多人的生命，那我們就來做吧！如果地方政府確實力有未逮或是能力也許不如中央來協助的話，那我認為中央就應該要來協助，我相信救人這件事情是沒有在區分的。"],["杜次長文珍：是啊！每位國民都非常重要，這部分我們應該要協助。"],["黃委員捷：對，所以真的拜託，如果可以，我們就把它訂得更細緻，如果地方政府沒有發現這個是必須要改善的問題，那我們就來協助吧！"],["杜次長文珍：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個部分要拜託。當然，我也很感謝農業部，因為我看到林保署的影片，他們跟成大的團隊長途跋涉，還有特遣隊到堰塞湖的現場，是這樣經過5天，甚至是涉險走獸徑、走一些舊林道，然後走到現場去，把現場的畫面記錄下來，以及紀錄最新的蓄水量，都是他們在現場監測，我覺得必須要給他們肯定，也非常感謝他們，謝謝農業部。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。剩下一點時間，我們拜託內政部劉部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。我最後有三個問題請教，一個是村里廣播系統失靈的問題。因為在高雄，我相信部長也都知道，高雄撤離是真的會挨家挨戶去拜託他們，如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統，或者是廣播系統出狀況了，會派動所有的區長、那邊的所長，甚至所有的警力、消防人員都會到這個家裡，把每一個人帶出來。很顯然地，這一次花蓮是因為有一個地方的廣播系統失靈了，那當然很感謝消防署長，消防署也是第一時間趕快進行應變，如果廣播不能用，其他的人必須要到現場。我擔心的是，有些人還是不知道到底要怎麼辦？所以，我可不可以拜託，除了村里廣播系統及手機一定會發細胞簡訊外，還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間，讓住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到通知及警報？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如我們剛剛所說的，現在的備變方式就是把這樣子的堰塞湖部分變成是海嘯，海嘯按照民防的話，就會有好像萬安演習聽到的聲音，大家可能都會知道，但是比較重要的還是在第一時間內，要能夠確定家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到，或是看得到這樣的訊息？"],["黃委員捷：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道以高雄市為例的話，第一個就是民政系統或警政系統的人會挨家挨戶去敲門，請他們離開，如果不願意離開的話，要請他們簽切結書。但是在這一次恐怕要再細查一下，花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所在處理的時候，是不是就這方面有比較沒注意到的地方，未來我們會按照原來的會議紀錄或是真正發生的情形，提供給相關的檢調來參考。"],["黃委員捷：這個部分真的要拜託部長，雖然這件事情是非常地細節，可是卻是最重要的一件事。"],["劉部長世芳：因為人命保全是最重要的。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的生命。"],["黃委員捷：所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到通知的訊息，這個真的要拜託，每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查。"],["劉部長世芳：對，還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離，尤其是保全戶的部分，通常在颱風要進來的前24小時，地方的民政單位就會通知包括鄉鎮公所或者里幹事，把行動不方便的人口趕快做異地撤離，或者是原地撤離都可以，這個部分其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面，都有提到這方面的問題，但是在溝通上面，或是在通知上面，確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。最後一件事情也是跟剛剛巧慧委員提到的一樣，因為其實我自己到現場當志工，也有發現現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官，是有辦法來指揮志工的，當然我也可以……"],["劉部長世芳：志工無法指揮，我想黃委員非常清楚。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這就是問題、這就是問題！我們知道政府部門沒有責任，或者說沒有資格去指揮志工，因為大家都是自發性的，可是針對這些大型的災後現場，真的有這麼多的民間力量想要來協助的時候，到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以……因為大家目標都一樣，就是災後的重建可以更快、更有效率，可是民眾到現場會變成是漫無目的。","包括我到了現場，是怎麼知道要做什麼工作的呢？我是自己用手機查，有一個自主的平臺，裡面會有民眾提報現在哪一戶、哪一個住址，還需要幾位志工，或者需要多少物資。他們提供了訊息，我們再一個一個去搜尋知道這裡需要有人過去，我可能就走了15分鐘到這個家戶，我那一天是這樣的。很顯然地，我希望這個還是有一個調整的空間，就是現在都已經很明確是一個災後現場，一個很緊急的狀況，是不是接下來可以善用這些民力，或者是更有效地去分配這一些自主的民眾力量，讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災、遇到什麼人禍，只要是這種緊急的狀況，大家都可以進行有效的分工。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛有跟蘇委員報告過，我想要分成幾個階段，第一個就是希望在第一線從事搜索工作的部分，儘量不要去那個地方，因為那是特搜隊在處理的範圍。第二個國軍救災，或者像慈濟、芥菜種會或是其他的宮廟團體，他們都投入非常多的人力，一次是一千、兩千人，所以這個部分包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央，他們都知道負責的區域在哪裡。關於國軍投入的部分，我也跟委員報告，國軍是半夜行動的，因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間，他們半夜去把路中間整體的、大量的土沙把它移開。","現在就是所謂自己來的這個部分，自己來的部分確實比較難，我也知道有些自發性的團體10個、20個，對我們來講都是好的，但是一個人來的部分，確實很難知道他要去哪裡？要做什麼事？所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分，包括跟衛福部一起來商量，怎麼樣把志工的志願工作法跟災後防救結合在一起，如果有人願意過來的話，包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具，譬如鏟子跟雨鞋，或者是怎麼樣防曬的部分，因為還是很多人中暑。或是醫療救助站分成專業的志工，或只是去那邊協助半天的，他們可以去哪裡做會比較好的基本上分工，讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨。但是無論如何，我們還是充滿了感激，因為這50萬人次的志工都是自發來的。"],["黃委員捷：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：這個部分，以後會有一些精進的方案，但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助。第一個，我知道這些志工朋友都很好，他們沒有妨礙救災，但是他們要去幫忙的話，第一個還是要能夠先救自己，自己不要……"],["黃委員捷：自我保護最重要。"],["劉部長世芳：對，要先保護自己，才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民朋友，然後協助清掃家園，這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的激勵作用，未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項。"],["黃委員捷：是啦！我覺得這次真的是非常好的一個經驗，最後還是要拜託部長，大馬村的王村長模式必須要建立，這是我認為今天最重要的一件事情，希望未來每一個社區都可以像王村長這樣，做到百分之百的撤離。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們會來努力，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。接下來請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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我知道這個國軍知道這裡都很認真很努力我要跟你討論的就是說要撤離的時候等於沒有撤離他過去的時候你中央知道嗎"},{"start":311.937,"end":313.679,"text":"知道他沒有撤離嗎?沒有去說救我?沒有去說阿欽要撤離?跟那個大麻村長,去說不說阿欽走?部長,在這兩天的時候,我們19號發生覺得嚴重性的日日叫人要撤離,日三發生事情"},{"start":337.81,"end":343.073,"text":"在發生事情的時候,他們看到水泥沒兩分鐘,跑不掉啦現在我要跟你討論的就是說在他們沒有撤離的時候你們中央有什麼方法嗎?沒有啦,那被捕官,我們都不知道要不要撤離,要不要做什麼事事悲慘耶,沒有啦,他們是悲慘耶部長"},{"start":367.701,"end":370.144,"text":"我們有什麼方法可以來合作來中央和地方可以來檢慶上海沒有啦我不是說我們的地方還是我們的中央是要怎麼讓你們知道該撤離的沒撤離的要過境還可以加強沒有啦過境有這個問題啦"},{"start":393.695,"end":396.558,"text":"你剛才也說了 聽到也感到不曉得如何回應你的問題我想再回憶 看來的狀況就是當時如果有做廣播撤離的時候光復鄉公所確實有告訴我們說它的廣播系統出問題但是花蓮縣的警察局"},{"start":411.374,"end":424.169,"text":"他們在光復的部分趕快派出消防車跟警車用廣播的方式請大家趕快離開然後花蓮縣政府知道說我們疏散撤離的人數高達有1837戶的時候到真正艷澀湖有這個潰堤的危機總共是超過將近43個小時"},{"start":432.378,"end":443.004,"text":"也就是說如果趕快做疏散撤離包括我們常常在講的預防性撤離一定是保全戶也就是有身障或是年紀大的那同時我們也告訴他說因為按照花蓮縣他們的疏散撤離計畫確實有個叫垂直避難那這一次呢罹難的很多老人家他們幾乎都是集中在一樓因為最後他淤沙的程度呢是在一樓以下那往二樓三樓的也是一個可以撤離的方向"},{"start":459.853,"end":484.085,"text":"第一個就是說大家會覺得說好像過去農業部一直推動說有黃色警戒或紅色警戒的撤離計畫很多人覺得那沒問題可能第一個掉以輕心但是這個都是後話第二個就是說疏散撤離的過程當中人力夠不夠按照我們現在中央跟地方所了解的部分人力在疏散撤離上面應該是夠的但是比較重要是戶口的清查"},{"start":484.605,"end":505.934,"text":"你到底知道现在房子里面住的是多少人他能不能离开所以我们看到很多让人家心痛的部分产生的时候我们还是一样非常沉痛任何一个生命的损失都是我们无法沉痛的部分所以我在很多工作会议里面都特别提到垂直的撤离的方式是人命保全最重要"},{"start":506.374,"end":531.119,"text":"財產損失是次之的所以我是覺得這樣子的溝通計畫還是要跟大家再繼續加強那當然中間有一位村長他全村都撤離我也跟委員報告這位村長他在112年的時候有榮獲我們消防署的一個任性社區所以他不只撤離挨家挨戶去請人家離開他還用他的主語用廣播系統告訴人家一定要離開而且全村都巡視"},{"start":532.179,"end":546.85,"text":"所以他是一個非常好的一個地方上的一個村長我們希望用他的案例當成是一個示範的案例未來再推廣很多有需要疏散撤離甚至強制疏散撤離的部分當成一個最好的參考"},{"start":547.771,"end":561.958,"text":"因為我們一定是知道人定真的無法勝天沒有人知道到底什麼時候會有產生溢流因為我也跟委員報告那一天早上當我們知道這個溢流口只剩下幾公尺的時候早上4點鐘我們的消防署長就開始召開會議"},{"start":563.619,"end":590.791,"text":"然後七點鐘的時候每一次農業部發表了紅色紅色紅色從八點一直發布紅色警戒兩個小時發布一次到下午兩點半的時候才產生從早上八點到兩點半產生的時候一直在通知地方上要趕快來協助但是真的就是憾事發生那既然憾事發生的話大家都要能夠理解說未來我們到底溝通的部分法令上不足的部分或者是我們整個的疏散撤離企劃有不夠"},{"start":591.391,"end":603.5,"text":"明確的部分的話 還是需要深切的檢討啦對啦 普通 你剛才就是說溝通的問題 撤離的問題在這個過程當中 我覺得在法律當中也有一些不足的地方 我們未來要趕緊去改啦在這個過程當中 你看事情發生之後"},{"start":613.717,"end":619.081,"text":"你看很多人做志工,在這個過程,大家不小心做志工而已入獄的時候,那個心情看多艱苦所以保證,我是要跟你說,我們最重要最重要的天災我們沒辦法去預防,要不然我們要撤離的時候,我們一定要做到到底啦"},{"start":638.613,"end":642.577,"text":"因為你剛才說的大馬村 那個村長有受過分跟他能說 也能說他的族 民族 他有的嘛跟八村那個 但是我們不能讓任何一村來受盡他們的風險啦所以未來的時候 不管在哪一個地方我們要去訓練他們"},{"start":668.427,"end":673.648,"text":"公佈電台也不可以廢棄啦那個廣播系統他剛才你說的說你有沒有看那個消防的車一直公佈一直公佈這個有沒有看到驚悚說啦,可以沒有那個發展會公佈的時候可以再驚慌最恐慌的啦在這裡面,部長你看,大家都要再努力因為未來會重建的路"},{"start":698.168,"end":704.452,"text":"我們也跟花蓮互相加油有未來的一天跟我們一起繼續所有事情像鳳林"},{"start":712.994,"end":713.475,"text":"謝謝王美惠"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":437,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時59分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：我們請劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["王委員美惠：部長辛苦了。部長，9月23日發生花蓮這件事情，說實在的，大家如果看到電視內容，無法想像這發生在臺灣、中華民國，包括我在內，我看到電視的時候還以為是日本海嘯的重播，我看了看，剛好看到旁邊有一個全聯，我才知道這發生在我們中華民國、臺灣！","部長，剛剛經濟部也提到，他在7月就知道有這個問題，在陸陸續續開這麼多會議、討論這麼多事情之後，結果像剛剛部長說的，天災地變我們沒辦法預防，但是我們可以減輕損傷。就像剛剛巧慧立委說的，大家如果說到這些問題，我們心裡都很難過，我們如果可以更早撤離的話，這19位亡者不會過世，還有5位失蹤！部長，在這個過程當中，我們不是要說誰認真、誰怎麼樣，我們是要想想看，怎麼樣讓我們的百姓可以生活在比較安全的地方。","說實在的，大家也想要住在都市、大家也想要住在安全的地方，但是他們住在那麼深山、偏僻的地方，他們的經濟又比較差，需要我們中央政府來幫忙、多關心。在這個過程當中，本席也覺得很奇怪，造冊的問題如同剛剛部長說的，既然高雄可以做，為什麼他們的環境這麼差，會發生颱風、發生水災，但造冊卻這麼不正確？部長，這種情況是不是中央跟地方政府要聯合處理到最正確，不要說這裡住了10個人卻只有造冊2個人而已。而報導一開始說有一百多個人失蹤了，部長，聽到這一百多個人失蹤了，你、我及所有人都非常難過，覺得怎麼會發生這樣的事情？","本席要跟你說的是，雖然地方制度法第十八條、第十九條有規定地方要做什麼、中央要做什麼，但是事情發生了，百姓怎麼知道你們中央要做什麼、地方要做什麼？在開會過程中，部長你說你打了一通電話讓縣長趕快回來，但是在你們的開會過程中，他們的副縣長都說他們安排好了、做好了，怎麼又會發生這樣的事？來，部長你回答一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我想災害的過程大家都清楚，目前為止還是一樣，我們不從究責的方向出發，我們先從如何可以防止更大的災害產生。我也非常清楚的跟委員報告，在多次的聯繫當中，我們也只能相信花蓮縣政府所提供的這些，不管是依親、收容或者是撤離的人數，當時我也請國軍或者是我們的替代役要到光復鄉公所待命，如果有需要強制撤離的部分，我們希望能夠協助。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我知道國軍等等的都很認真、很努力，我要跟你討論的是，該撤離但地方沒有撤離那幾個村的時候，你們中央知道嗎？知道他們沒有撤離嗎？沒有廣播嗎？沒有廣播要村民趕快撤離，像大馬村廣播說要趕快走。部長，19號就發現事情的嚴重性了，22號要他們撤離，23號發生事情，在發生事情的時候，他們看到水來，不到2分鐘就跑不掉了！現在我要跟你們討論的就是地方如果沒有撤離，你們中央有什麼方法嗎？否則那個父母官都不知道、也沒有要撤離、也沒有要做什麼，死是死百姓，無奈的是百姓！部長，我們有什麼方法可以合作，讓中央替地方減輕傷害嗎？我們不是要說地方或中央的問題，而是你們要知道如果該撤離但沒有撤離的話要趕快加強啊！部長，就是這個問題，你頭腦也是昏沉沉的吧！聽到也覺得難過吧！"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我回應你的問題，我想再回憶原來的狀況，就是當時如果有做廣播撤離的時候，光復鄉公所確實有告訴我們說他的廣播系統出問題，但是花蓮縣警察局在光復的部分就趕快派出消防車跟警車，用廣播的方式請大家趕快離開，然後花蓮縣政府知道疏散撤離的人數高達1,837戶的時候，到真正堰塞湖有潰堤危機，總共是超過將近43個小時；也就是說，如果趕快疏散撤離，包括我們常常在講的預防性撤離一定是保全戶，也就是有身障或是年紀大的。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["劉部長世芳：同時，我們也告訴他們，因為按照花蓮縣的疏散撤離計畫確實有個叫垂直避難，這一次很多罹難的老人家幾乎都是集中在一樓，因為最後淤沙的程度是在一樓以下，往二樓、三樓也是一個可以撤離的方向。第一個就是大家會覺得過去農業部一直推動黃色警戒或紅色警戒的撤離計畫，很多人覺得就沒事情，可能第一個是掉以輕心，但是這個都是後話。第二個就是疏散撤離的過程當中人力夠不夠？按照現在中央跟地方所了解的部分，人力在疏散撤離上面應該是夠的，但是比較重要是戶口的清查，到底知不知道現在房子裡面住的是多少人、他能不能離開？所以我們看到很多讓人家心痛的部分產生的時候，我們還是一樣非常沉痛，任何一個生命的損失都是我們感到沉痛的部分。","所以我在很多工作會議裡面都特別提到，這個垂直撤離的方式是人命保全最重要，財產損失是次之的，所以我是覺得這樣子的溝通計畫還是要跟大家再繼續加強。當然中間有一位村長是把全村都撤離，我也跟委員報告，這位村長在112年的時候榮獲我們消防署的韌性社區，所以他不只撤離，挨家挨戶去請人家離開，他還用他的族語用廣播系統告訴人家一定要離開，而且全村都巡視，所以他在地方上是一個非常好的村長，我們希望用他的案例當成是一個示範案例，未來在推廣很多有需要疏散撤離，甚至強制疏散撤離的部分，當成一個最好的參考。因為我們一定知道人定真的無法勝天，沒有人知道到底什麼時候會產生溢流。","我也跟委員報告，那一天早上，當我們知道這個溢流口只剩下幾公尺的時候，早上四點鐘我們的消防署長就開始召開會議，然後七點鐘的時候，每一次農業部發表了紅色、紅色、紅色，從八點一直發布紅色警戒，兩個小時發布一次，到下午兩點半的時候才產生，從早上八點到兩點半產生的時候，一直在通知地方上要趕快來協助，但是真的就是憾事發生。既然憾事發生了，大家都要能夠理解未來我們到底溝通的部分、法令上不足的部分，或者是我們整個疏散撤離計畫有不夠明確的部分的話，還是需要深切的檢討啦！"],["王委員美惠：對啦！部長，你剛才說到溝通的問題、撤離的問題，在這個過程當中，我覺得法律也有一些不足的地方，我們未來要趕快去改善。你看事情發生之後有多少人做志工，在這個過程大家不是只做志工而已，大家進去的時候那個心情有多難過！","部長，我是要跟你們說，最重要、最重要的，我們無法預防天災，不過我們在撤離的時候一定要做得澈底！你剛才說的大馬村那個村長有受過訓，他也會說原住民族語，但別村呢？我們不能讓任何一村遭受風險。所以未來不管在哪一個地方都要訓練，廣播系統也不能壞掉，剛才你說到消防車一直廣播、一直廣播，這個是有看到，但如果廣播系統沒有壞掉，可以早一點開始廣播，就可以再減輕傷亡情況。","部長，我們大家都要再加油，因為未來的重建之路，我們希望跟花蓮互相加油，才會有未來的一天，也希望部長繼續將所有事情，像你們和鳳林鎮的一些誤會，我也希望救災的時候不是政治口水啦！而是要怎麼樣趕快將地方百姓他們的災害降到最低，部長，以上。"],["劉部長世芳：感謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠召委。","接下來請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員好 劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早"},{"start":22.435,"end":44.868,"text":"好部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害"},{"start":47.489,"end":51.751,"text":"所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情 誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的"},{"start":67.958,"end":90.893,"text":"所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方"},{"start":92.173,"end":96.497,"text":"讓整個機制可以做到最好不讓你同意這個狀態完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以"},{"start":109.028,"end":116.832,"text":"不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為"},{"start":138.684,"end":145.388,"text":"整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚"},{"start":167.8,"end":183.234,"text":"該中央擔的 絕不推諉但該地方做的 也要讓地方 讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊 所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡 人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠 夠不夠嚴格執行"},{"start":193.183,"end":210.378,"text":"不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了"},{"start":219.926,"end":227.411,"text":"非常多次吧 我剛剛報告有七次以上 甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的 大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣 部長"},{"start":247.185,"end":260.977,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教我想委員他側重在監控以及後面的疏散撤離的部分確實這有中央跟地方上在這個協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是不是有各盡善盡職責"},{"start":262.478,"end":270.54,"text":"那有關這方面的救責的部分 除了院長提到說救災為先 救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面 但是沒有一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠"},{"start":286.903,"end":291.145,"text":"確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制這是這次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分"},{"start":307.995,"end":329.122,"text":"好 所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好 剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來 第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎"},{"start":337.301,"end":362.795,"text":"不 這其實是防空 我相信大家都比較熟悉這個 這個從小聽到大大家都有練習 認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊 我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好 部長 我告訴你 我覺得你不知道 很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況欸 消防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別慶祝"},{"start":368.715,"end":398.032,"text":"海嘯所以我還要在那邊算這是不是5秒嗎因為他會連續發8次到9次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這是在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chat GPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個"},{"start":413.482,"end":429.872,"text":"部長這就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報誤發警示所有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後最後由中央依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲這個是我們的海嘯警報"},{"start":437.236,"end":442,"text":"大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼"},{"start":462.958,"end":465.68,"text":"所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種啦比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報"},{"start":479.088,"end":494.292,"text":"其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的"},{"start":502.794,"end":505.675,"text":"所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為啦未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論啦"},{"start":521.401,"end":527.103,"text":"可以討論啦我想委員的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣好了第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天啦第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要"},{"start":547.828,"end":553.009,"text":"所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的"},{"start":573.795,"end":583.218,"text":"可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦"},{"start":597.546,"end":618.093,"text":"報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去是那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人沒有錯非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部能夠決定是由勞動部來幫忙我認為這個可以討論啦"},{"start":621.474,"end":642.347,"text":"所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這個是第二題最後一個啦雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上"},{"start":651.532,"end":672.577,"text":"進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西"},{"start":680.259,"end":692.921,"text":"可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國災防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分"},{"start":707.525,"end":710.071,"text":"就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別"},{"start":715.396,"end":738.438,"text":"零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦"},{"start":740.236,"end":769.876,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們在分派工作比較沒有但是個別的問題呢我們在災後好幾天那個原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有"},{"start":771.377,"end":798.954,"text":"那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分呢我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規劃或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分呢慢慢把它建制化呢我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商"},{"start":799.775,"end":803.421,"text":"好謝謝部長齁我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇宵月圓接下來我們請王美惠召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我們先請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：請劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我請部長先站這裡，但其實也要跟剛剛其他上臺的所有行政官員一起講這段話，我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這個問題，也就是花蓮堰塞湖造成的災害，確實它造成了很大的人命、財產的傷亡、傷害，所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情，誠如剛剛部長講的，天然災害沒有辦法完全避免，我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小，靠復原把災害復原得最快，其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢、備詢的目的。","所以本於國會議員的職責，我們是以花蓮作為例子，但是所有檢討的機制，其實未來是全國一體可以適用的，因為任何一個地方，包括像我的新北，我們也有山區，我們也會發生土石流，也會有水災，所以所有的機制是一起檢討，不分中央跟地方，讓整個機制可以做到最好。部長，你同意這個狀態吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，完全同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全同意嘛，所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架，凡是來這裡吵架的，坦白講就是不想把事情做好。但是各位官員站在備詢臺上面，我也希望你們可以不要拘泥於過去跟立法委員之間這樣的關係，委員在問問題的時候，該講到哪裡就講到哪裡，只有你們把事情分清楚，中央該做的，你自己擔下來沒有錯，但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的，中央根本管不到、摸不到、伸不下去，沒有地方政府配合，救災復原這件事情就是做不到，你也要在這裡講出來，讓大家可以明白，因為整個救災機制要能夠一體適用，這是全國人民期待的。","所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡，除了世芳部長這邊可以比較明確地講哪些是中央的、哪些是地方的，我覺得這樣很清楚，如果還可以再精進，我們一起討論；但其他的部會，其實我真的覺得要藉著今天，尤其主席給每個委員都是10分鐘的時間，應該要講清楚，該中央擔的絕不推諉，但該地方做的，也要讓地方、讓全國人民知道，這就是地方政府的權責，部長，你同意我的說法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，所以今天兩大項很清楚，一個是人命傷亡，人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠、夠不夠嚴格執行、是不是能夠再精進，這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分，就是撤離，而我們看到所有的報告，其實農業部一次、一次地發布撤離警訊、紅色警訊，在22日的早上7點就說我即將要發布了，到真正的溢流時間其實是有36個小時左右，在這中間發布了非常多次，我看報告有7次以上，甚至還有細胞簡訊，這其實就是機制，有發布了警訊，但地方政府是否能夠執行撤離，中央怎麼監控、執掌，讓地方政府能夠嚴格執行，我覺得這才是要討論的部分；但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離，大家真的也可以來看看要怎麼檢討，是不是這樣？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，我想委員側重在監控以及後面的疏散、撤離部分，確實這部分中央跟地方在協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是否都各善盡職責，有關這方面的究責部分，除了院長提到救災為先、究責為後，我們也知道，花蓮地檢署已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有會議紀錄或是所有的通報機制，來釐清到底這個責任誰要負責，我想這個非常地清楚……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我確實覺得究責是後面的事，但是內政部有一個職責還包括未來怎麼去督促地方政府能夠確實執行，這個部分我們也可以討論，未來在精進的部分，怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離，我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制，這是這一次花蓮告訴我們的警訊。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：再來，財務損失的部分，就是復原要怎麼樣能夠加速，我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，如果大家都同意這個前提，因為質詢時間有限，我本來準備了幾個題目，我就就細部的題目來跟部長就教，比如說剛剛我們在說要撤離，其實撤離的部分大家都有個認知，叫做警報系統，我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統，部長分不分得出來？第一個。","（播放音檔）"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，這是什麼警報系統，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：防空。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這其實是防空，我相信大家都比較熟悉這個，這個從小聽到大，大家都有認真演練。那這個呢？","（播放音檔）"],["劉部長世芳：是5秒、5秒嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，你要聽啊，我也不知道是不是5秒、5秒。部長，我告訴你，我覺得你不知道很正常，這也是我想呈現的狀況，消防署長知道這是什麼嗎？我看你的臉色可能也不是特別清楚。"],["蕭署長煥章：如果是5秒、5秒的話就是海嘯警報。"],["劉部長世芳：海嘯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我還要在這邊算這是不是5秒嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：因為它會連續發8次到9次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，這個是緊急避難警報，也就是根據你們的規則訂出來的緊急疏散警報，這次在本來警示說要撤離之前，理論上應該要發這個警報，但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼，所以這是我從ChatGPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的。","再來第三個。","（播放音檔）"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，這就是海嘯警報了，也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報、誤發警示說有溢流的危險，大家亂成一團之後，最後依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲，這是我們的海嘯警報，大家請以這個警報聲為準，有這個警報才是真正有溢堤、溢流危險的狀態。所以部長，我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢？就是你看，空襲警報大家都常常聽、常常練習，所以我們一聽就知道這個是什麼意思，可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報，坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼，所以如果突然間響起這個警報，你知道這是什麼嗎？你根本不知道啊！"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們必須要先做預防性的告知，先做兵棋推演，然後告知大家。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，而且警報聲不要太多種，比如說最後的這個海嘯警報，因為你這樣子大量地發布、一次性發布，大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候，大家就很清楚就是這個聲音，因為你看它的發布方式是跟空襲警報比較接近的，是由警政系統直接發布下去，這個大家都聽得到，而不是由區公所這邊做警報，也就是緊急疏散警報，所以它們從發布方法、發布時機其實都不一樣。所以我直接具體建議，我認為未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單、統一、明確，不用太多種類，不管是發布方式或發布時機點，我認為這都可以討論。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想委員的建議非常好，我們會朝這個方向來精進。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以這是第一個，你看，這就是災後我們可以就災情來檢討的部分，第一個是這樣。","第二個，災後復原假的部分，我自己本身在第三天就已經到達了花蓮現場，我們可以看到那個地方真的就是需要大量的人力進去，即便到今天還是需要，所以我們有很多的志工進去，甚至所有的青年都返家回去。但是我想問部長，我們有沒有可能比照性別平等工作法第二十條，在家裡發生其他重大事故須親自照顧時，得請家庭照顧假回家去幫忙？因為那個現場只有長輩是完全不可能復原的，可是青年人大部分都不住在當地，都是在臺灣、臺北其他地方上班，每天都要請事假嗎？這些人的事假夠不夠、能不能夠負擔？所以有沒有機會援例性別平等工作法這個部分增訂災後復原假？我也是建請內政部可以討論看看。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們如果在災區宣布停止上班、上課，那在災區的人就沒有問題。現在你所說的就是他可能在外地要回去，軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵，因為軍公教有比較多的假期；現在會碰到非軍公教的人……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯，部長很清楚。"],["劉部長世芳：關於非軍公教的人，這恐怕在法律上面要從長計議，那個大概不是由內政部能夠決定，這需要由勞動部來幫忙處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒關係，我認為這個可以討論，所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下，這個是第二題。","最後一個，雖然時間已經到了，但是我還是想講一下這個部分。這一次大家可以看到非常多所謂的鏟子超人去到了災區現場，如果用火車人次來看的話，平常光復車站一天大概是1,000個人進去，可是災後到現在20天，每天平均至少有1萬人以上進到了光復車站裡面，我們就實際用車站的人次來看。人這麼多，但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢？事實上我自己也經歷到，人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮，所以拿著鏟子在路上走了1個小時、2個小時，不知道要幹什麼！因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮。","民間出現了app這樣的東西，有app我是知道這裡可能有需要人力，我還是不知道我應該去A還是先去B。我直接講結論，不要佔用其他人太多的時間，因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加國家防災日的演練，在這個演練當中，其實我們把所有的民力也都納進來，可是當時的民力其實講的是團體、救災團體的部分，所以你那個是20人以上團體、有專業知能等等。但我們可以看到這一次是個別、零星、單獨的志工也願意去救災，所以我直接建請內政部研議，未來的志工統籌、怎麼樣運用民力其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中，這是我具體的建議，但請內政部研議，我想這是非常、非常大的事情，不是現在馬上可以解決的。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，現在的志願服務法是在衛福部，如果需要有這樣子的民力加入的話，不管分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工，如果他是一個團體的話，我們沒有問題，譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種會，包括委員他們有組織，這些我們在分派工作比較沒有問題；但是關於個別的問題，在災後好幾天，原住民族委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙分派工作，但是仍然會有掛一漏萬。","至於未來怎麼樣做能夠比較精進的部分，我們可能要從長來檢討，看怎麼樣把它變成法規化或制度化，未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則，也就是像這一次，我們也在很短的時間內，在行政院的指導之下開始做志工的不特定人數平安險，昨天已經有登錄一萬多人，就表示很多人是願意投入的，這一部分慢慢把它建制化，我們來努力，可能要跨部會來協商。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長，我期待聽到跨部會的結論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","接下來我們請王美惠召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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我一起叫上來啊謝謝委員關心我想就整個堰塞湖的監測在對於監測到的所有資訊該要公開的其實都在網站上不是啊 你就回答我的問題就好啦那我想沒有人希望這件事情發生當然所有的資訊的溝通都是希望能夠避免人員傷亡不敢回答 部長"},{"start":127.602,"end":153.392,"text":"報告委員我們都了解人定無法勝天那在農業部他有持續監測但是最重要的兩個不可測的因素就是第一個艷澀湖在最後華家沙颱風的時候呢帶來大量的豪大雨當時華家沙對於不是啦部長我只你們只要回答我的問題其實是不是可避免你這個天然災害無法避免"},{"start":154.472,"end":183.645,"text":"是 所以我說人性無法勝天對 但造成這麼大的這麼多人的罹難或什麼的是不是可以避免的我們盡量要能夠避免但是它事實上造成這樣子的傷痛我們也是心情非常的沉重所以我們還是盡量朝著說未來怎麼樣更安全的來防護包括縣政府造成的災害會比較好我必須這樣說今天心情大家問這個問題都很沉重"},{"start":184.81,"end":203.413,"text":"在那邊有一個大馬村的村長整村的人人家是不是都撤離是 王子安王村長對這是不是可避免是的是不是對對嘛我覺得啦我們這一次要記起這個教訓"},{"start":206.206,"end":229.962,"text":"大家都知道撤離當然是地方政府的權限但中央跟地方要一起配合才能完成地方政府也沒有辦法知道燕塞湖他的監測狀況他也沒辦法他是要中央給他第一手的訊息他才能夠去處理那我覺得中央跟地方就是要一起配合但這一次我真的覺得這個撤離的動作如果精準確實"},{"start":236.692,"end":243.798,"text":"絕對不會發生這麼多人的罹難你的財產損失可能沒有辦法因為這是天災但財產損失的政府還可以補償但人命沒了就沒了對不對部長是對嘛所以我一直覺得我們這個部長還有經濟部農業部都在我們每年是不是都有辦防汛演習"},{"start":267.526,"end":268.947,"text":"是不是經濟部跟部長報告確實針對相關災害是有防眩演習每年都該辦吧看災害別我們有颱風水災又各主管機關去做相關的你只有回答我是不是每年都要辦是啊對啊這樣就好啦"},{"start":291.374,"end":317.161,"text":"對不對可不可以以後每年在辦防汛演習的時候把這一種測離因為水災我們不只是九煙塞湖土石流地區等等的這些都是會造成人命的傷亡我們以後可不可以把防汛演習把這個測離列為演習的標準項目之一可不可以"},{"start":318.94,"end":322.782,"text":"以水災為例我們每次都會把這個測離當作一個重點不是啦我現在問你的是我們把這個警戒區裡面的測離這個要把它列入標準的測離我們要演練的程序之一而且照測什麼什麼的要從頭到尾精準去做以後的防汛演習可不可以做到這樣"},{"start":347.869,"end":359.829,"text":"在水災的部分我們會把這個撤離當作一個重點你在放錄音帶喔還是你要回去請示部長才可以回答"},{"start":361.411,"end":367.352,"text":"報告委員經濟部就是水災的主責機關對啊所以我問你現在未來的防汛演習可不可以把這個撤離這個是當成標準最重要的演練之一嘛你就回答是就好了你剛剛問那麼多這是人命的事耶我覺得以前就是沒有這樣子嘛沒有嚴格的要求嘛所以你變成地方的造冊根本不確實嘛"},{"start":393.39,"end":401.52,"text":"如果每個都像大馬村的村長這樣子今天我看傷亡的人數會大幅降低我們就有財產的損失"},{"start":403.629,"end":430.012,"text":"我們是人命重要比財產更重要所以我今天說要求你們這樣你剛說可以嘛可以以後我們就照這樣來做嘛那如果地方政府都能夠在平時把造冊實際居住的人有多少人都造冊精準然後我們演練配合內政部配合所有部會演練每次的撤離就是照"},{"start":431.244,"end":440.734,"text":"這樣子精準的演練我相信未來不會再發生這樣的事不然地方的造冊你中央也沒有辦法去檢驗它到底造冊準不準啊部長"},{"start":442.864,"end":468.825,"text":"可以 你們可以百分之百檢驗到他們造冊準不準嗎不容易因為剛剛跟那個委員了解的一樣譬如說急在人不在或者是臨時返鄉的不特定人口所以我們通常都是在這個汛期之前或颱風之前要求地方的民政單位要能夠確實掌握住在縣地的人到底有多少人這樣子在做疏散撤離的時候呢才能夠精準把握那但是這通常都是要村裡幹事"},{"start":469.986,"end":488.972,"text":"或者是地方的這個消防或警察或者是社會處的同仁才會知道說這邊到底有多少人我知道啦這個都是地方造冊啦我當過地方的民政局長我非常清楚啦如果認真做的就會做到百分之九十九啦我們也不敢說百分之百啦因為有時候可能這個"},{"start":490.191,"end":512.865,"text":"去那邊工作的人他昨天來你多一個人你也不知道但我們至少能夠做到99%但你中央可能沒有辦法拿到確實的數據啊對不對所以你地方如果沒有嚴格去做到我認為啊以後還是同樣的情況會發生所以我才會說你今天造成這樣子我認為地方的造冊"},{"start":516.724,"end":540.356,"text":"真的是出了很大的問題不然也不會說災區的人連便當都沒有拿到如果你照冊精準怎麼可能連便當都沒拿到這是新聞播的所以我在這邊請所有的部會我們未來防汛演習把這一種土石流或這一種類似這種比較有可能發生要撤離的"},{"start":542.621,"end":552.81,"text":"變成標準的程序 標準的作業啦這樣子每年來做啦 每年檢驗啦才不會再有這種情況發生啦我不知道可不可以剛剛經濟部說可以了 那其他部會可不可以"},{"start":559.878,"end":578.588,"text":"也是要照這樣子來做 因為其實有這樣的經驗好 謝謝 那內政部我們應該也可以吧對 我們按照那個災救法一定會按照這樣的方式要求地方政府一定要能夠確實造冊配合而且要實時更新因為其他的縣市政府其實有人做得到 譬如說高雄市政府"},{"start":579.148,"end":598.648,"text":"他們在颱風有一級警戒的時候知道山上的狀況其實馬上就做預防性的撤離我想預防性的撤離最近這幾年大家都常聽到就是說我們認為可能天災造成的危害比較大那預防性撤離就有必要而不是等到說真正這個颱風警報到了時候才做撤離這會有撤離上面的困擾"},{"start":599.773,"end":616.704,"text":"對啦我覺得還是一句話啦平時有做啦然後你們各部會如果地方在防汛演習他沒有照規定來沒有嚴格的做你們的補助很多的東西在你們手上你就不配合那我們就是要檢討每年防汛演習的最後的檢討不是檢討假的我覺得要這樣子才可以救很多人謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時35分）請內政部長、農業部長、經濟部水利署副署長。"],["主席：請以上委員提到的三個單位列席。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長好。我應該不用問到10分鐘，因為那麼多委員，讓你們罰站太久了，我們就簡短、就挑重點。部長，我想請問一下，這個堰塞湖是不是從一開始包含農業部等各部會就有監控到了，也都有隨時掌握第一時間的情況？"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是請農業部來回應？"],["張委員宏陸：對，所以我一起叫你們上來。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，7月26日在空勘確認有堰塞湖之後，其實就有把所有的部會，特別是在下游整治相關的，包括花蓮縣政府都納進來了。"],["張委員宏陸：其實今天在問這個是滿沉重的，我個人一直認為這些罹難的或什麼的，其實是可避免的問題，因可避免而沒有避免才造成今天這樣的憾事，我不知道你們各位的看法如何？誰回答都可以，我都一起叫上來。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，就整個堰塞湖的監測，對於監測到的所有資訊，該要公開的其實都在網站上公開了，該要通知都要通知……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，你就回答我的問題就好了。"],["杜次長文珍：沒有人希望這件事情發生，當然所有資訊的溝通都是希望能夠避免人員傷亡。"],["張委員宏陸：不敢回答。請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都了解人定無法勝天，農業部有持續監測，但是最重要的兩個不可測的因素就是，第一個，堰塞湖在最後樺加沙颱風的時候，帶來大量的豪大雨，當時樺加沙對於……"],["張委員宏陸：不是部長，你們只要回答我的問題，其實是不是可避免的？這個天然災害無法避免……"],["劉部長世芳：對，所以我說人定無法勝天。"],["張委員宏陸：對，但造成這麼大的災害、這麼多人罹難或什麼的，是不是可以避免的？"],["劉部長世芳：我們儘量要能夠避免，造成這樣子的傷痛，我們心情也是非常的沉重，所以我們還是儘量朝著未來該怎麼樣更安全的來防護，包括堰塞湖造成的災害會比較好。"],["張委員宏陸：我必須這樣說，今天問這個問題，大家心情都很沉重，在那邊有一個大馬村的村長，整村的人是不是都撤離了？"],["劉部長世芳：是，王梓安王村長。"],["張委員宏陸：對，這是不是可避免的？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！我覺得我們這一次要記取這個教訓，大家都知道撤離是地方政府的權限，但中央跟地方要一起配合才能完成，地方政府也沒有辦法知道堰塞湖的監測狀況，他也沒辦法，是要中央給他第一手的訊息，他才能夠去處理。我覺得中央跟地方就是要一起配合，但這一次我真的覺得這個撤離的動作如果精準、確實，絕對不會發生這麼多人罹難，財產損失可能沒有辦法，因為這是天災，財產損失了，政府還可以補償，但人命沒了就沒了，部長，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！部長，還有經濟部、農業部都在，我們每年是不是都有辦防汛演習？經濟部，是不是？"],["黃副署長宏莆：確實針對相關災害是有防汛演習。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，每年都該辦吧？"],["黃副署長宏莆：看災害別，我們有颱風、水災，由各主管機關去做相關的演習。"],["張委員宏陸：你只要回答我是不是每年都要辦？"],["黃副署長宏莆：是啊。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，這樣就好了，可不可以以後每年在辦防汛演習的時候，把這一種因為水災的撤離，我們不是只有堰塞湖，包括土石流地區等等的，這些都是會造成人命的傷亡，我們以後可不可以把這個撤離列為防汛演習的標準項目之一？"],["黃副署長宏莆：以水災為例，我們每次都會把這個撤離當作一個重點。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦！我現在問你的是，我們要把警戒區裡面的撤離列入我們要演練的標準撤離程序之一，而且造冊等等的要從頭到尾精準去做，以後的防汛演習可不可以做到這樣？"],["黃副署長宏莆：在水災的部分，我們會把這個撤離當作一個重點。"],["張委員宏陸：你在放錄音帶喔？還是你要回去請示部長才可以回答？"],["黃副署長宏莆：報告委員，經濟部就是水災的主責機關。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊，所以我問你，未來的防汛演習可不可以把這個撤離當成標準、最重要的演練之一？"],["黃副署長宏莆：可以。"],["張委員宏陸：你就回答是就好了啊！你剛剛問那麼多，這是人命的事欸！我覺得以前就是沒有嚴格的要求，所以變成地方的造冊根本不確實，如果每個都像大馬村村長這樣子，今天傷亡的人數會大幅降低，我們只有財產的損失，人命重要，比財產更重要。所以我今天要求你們這樣，你剛剛說可以嘛！如果可以，以後我們就照這樣來做，如果地方政府都能夠在平時把實際居住的人有多少都造冊精準，然後我們演練，配合內政部、配合所有部會演練，每次的撤離就是照這樣子精準的演練，我相信未來不會再發生這樣的事，不然地方的造冊，中央也沒有辦法去檢驗他們到底造冊準不準啊！部長，你們可以百分之百檢驗到他們造冊準不準嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不容易，因為跟委員了解的一樣，譬如說籍在人不在，或者是臨時返鄉的不特定人口，所以我們通常都是在汛期之前或颱風之前要求地方的民政單位要能夠確實掌握住在現地的人到底有多少，這樣在做疏散撤離的時候才能夠精準把握，但是這通常都是村里幹事、地方的消防、警察或者是社會處的同仁才會知道這邊到底有多少人。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，這個都是地方造冊，我當過地方的民政局長，我非常清楚，如果認真做的，就會做到百分之九十九，我們也不敢說百分之百，因為有時候可能去那邊工作的人，他昨天來，多一個人你也不知道，但我們至少能夠做到百分之九十九，但你中央可能沒有辦法拿到確實的數據，對不對？所以地方如果沒有嚴格去做到，我認為以後同樣的情況還是會發生。所以我才會說今天造成這樣子，我認為地方的造冊真的是出了很大的問題，不然也不會災區的人連便當都沒有拿到，如果你造冊精準，怎麼可能連便當都沒拿到，這是新聞播的。","所以我在這邊請所有的部會，我們未來防汛演習要把這種土石流或比較有可能發生要撤離的情形變成標準的程序、標準的作業，而且要每年來做、每年檢驗，才不會再有這種情況發生。我不知道可不可以？剛剛經濟部說可以，其他部會可不可以？"],["杜次長文珍：也是要照這樣子來做，因為其實有……"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。內政部應該也可以吧？"],["劉部長世芳：對，按照災救法，我們一定會按照這樣的方式，要求地方政府一定要能夠確實造冊配合，而且要時時更新，因為其他的縣市政府其實有人做得到，譬如說高雄市政府，他們在颱風一級警戒的時候，知道山上的狀況，馬上就做預防性的撤離。我想預防性的撤離在最近這幾年大家都常聽到，就是如果認為天災可能造成的危害比較大，預防性撤離就有必要，而不是等到真正颱風警報的時候才做撤離，這會有撤離上面的困擾。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我覺得還是一句話，平時有做，然後各部會，如果地方在防汛演習時沒有照規定來、沒有嚴格的做，你們有補助等等很多東西在你們手上，如果不配合，那就是要檢討，每年防汛演習最後的檢討不是檢討假的，我覺得要這樣子才可以救很多人。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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我們已經提供給檢警調去繼續再做後續的一些所以有充分的掌握了是是是OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":305.427,"end":332.965,"text":"那主委我想再請教就是說我們剛才一直關心的就是那個虛擬資產服務法這個專法在今年6月27號你已經報行政院了那個草案包含穩定幣的發行及管理相關的監管的一些要求但是目前還躺在行政院監管會員先宣示說今年底就要施行就要公布施行但是我們現在看起來時間就有點趕了"},{"start":335.306,"end":353.303,"text":"而且目前我看到有銀行業者凱基銀行他宣布將與全球最大的美元穩定幣發行商Tether合作推動虛擬貨幣的應用資產服務所以法規如果不能及時上路恐怕對投資人的保障會有很大的不足"},{"start":354.244,"end":377.417,"text":"所以目前我們看到除了民眾黨還有我們有幾位委員都有提案所以請問主委那貴會送交行政院的版本到底何時會送到立法院其實跟委員報告其實金管會是沒辦法宣誓說我們什麼時候要那要透過行政院跨部會的審查由政委來召集跨部會審查我們已經開過會我們會加速來請這個"},{"start":383.28,"end":408.705,"text":"那行政院審查所以在這個會期內沒有辦法順利這個我們站在經管委員會立場我們是希望能夠盡快的來審查因為這部法律通過以後呢還有大概七部的執法那我們現在都在準備中這七部的執法通過才有辦法上路所以這部分呢還需要一點時間剛剛委員講說會不會有空窗或是怎麼樣因為剛剛跟委員也質詢到了就是說我們現在採用的登記制"},{"start":409.585,"end":424.41,"text":"登記制某種程度來講雖然它的整個的效率跟它的範圍沒有像我們現在虛擬服務專法那麼的完備但是現在已經可以透過這個登記制做一定程度的對這個機構跟它行為做控管是"},{"start":425.63,"end":450.316,"text":"主委我想有專法對我們投資人的保障會比較夠所以我還是希望說主委你去跟行政院一定要多做溝通盡速把這部法律送到我們立法院來做審查讓他三讀通過另外就是說穩定幣的發行金管會是否也已經跟央行討論規劃未來穩定幣發行的幣別種類以及它應用服務的範圍"},{"start":451.676,"end":473.615,"text":"其實我們當時在立這個草案還有包括這個有關一些數位現金這樣的部分我們一直都有跟央行保持聯繫而且再來未來我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面這一部分也是穩定幣是油金管會跟央行共管未來是要共同管理這一塊市場所以有跟央行做規劃討論"},{"start":476.479,"end":502.336,"text":"另外 主委我們這個有關亞洲資產管理中心台灣州將在這個後天10月15號就要在高雄來開幕活動的重點聚焦在亞資的政策上要打造台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心的這個要推出一系列的論壇座談博覽會目前有33家的金融業來參與包含了"},{"start":507.34,"end":519.051,"text":"17家銀行12家證券期貨投資投信投顧公司4家保險公司證取局也表示截至目前已經有2.4萬人次的報名法人機構參與家屬為34家"},{"start":522.535,"end":549.816,"text":"專從國外來台參與的外資則逾140人次分別來自日本 韓國 新加坡 香港 美國印尼 印度 越南 柬埔寨等地主委 您也指出說台灣擁有豐沛的民間資金以及國際競爭力的產業是這些都是我們擠深國際邁向未來的重要基礎將打造我們台灣成為亞洲資產管理中心這也是我們行政院金發會的重要計畫之一"},{"start":551.838,"end":564.685,"text":"此次將藉由台灣州向全球投資人展示台灣的經濟實力行政院在明年度施政報告中也提到高雄設立資產管理專區開放38項業務還要透過ETF永續債券TISA賬戶來帶動發展"},{"start":570.808,"end":587.469,"text":"另外在今晚会针对我国总体经济分析台湾发展亚洲资产管理中心的条件的简报资料中也指出国内资金很充沛银行存款有54.9兆超额储蓄连续4年超过3兆受险资产超过34兆"},{"start":588.931,"end":615.294,"text":"但是我國如果要和香港新加坡競爭的話現階段缺乏國際市場的關心的稅負優惠外匯自由化 語言的環境優勢這些都是目前我們無法避免的結構性劣勢所以請問主委根據這些財經媒體的報導政府強調國際合作跨境ETF的掛牌但實際資金流入規模有限"},{"start":616.135,"end":633.249,"text":"雖然政府在高雄設立專區推動TISA專戶但根本結構性的問題要如何克服能不能在這邊向國人投資人表示我們具備什麼樣的優勢及能力跟香港新加坡來競爭亞洲資產管理中心的地位"},{"start":633.749,"end":660.76,"text":"是 我想剛委員提到的問題其實都已經非常完整就是要發展一個金融中心或資產管理中心它要很多很多的條件當然所有條件我們都有那當然最好但是我們應該是這樣想我們沒有的我們趕快慢慢應該要加速來爭取或來建構我們有的地方我們要好好的利用所以我們就先開始起步來做這件事情當然比如說如果稅跟外匯的話那主要是針對"},{"start":662.08,"end":679.547,"text":"外部的資金但對本國的資金怎麼讓他留下來可能是我們現階段最重要的一個工作所以這部分我們會是循序漸進來推動主委我想最後一個問題在30秒我們在政策設計上到底是要偏向流財還是引資我們先以流財"},{"start":681.788,"end":701.875,"text":"為主軸 但是引資絕對是我們要做這兩個是雙向但是我們一定要先做到能夠留財你談引資才是更現實 更具體所以我們這兩個是同時做但是我們現在主要是先針對留住台灣的財富為主要現階段的工作OK 好 主委加油謝謝 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們林昭偉接下來我們請顏寬恆委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":473,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時12分）好，謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主委早。"],["彭主任委員金隆：早。"],["林委員思銘：主委，有關詐騙的案件，我去查了一下，114年第2季的被害人共計有5萬4,996人，比第1季增加了7,898人，其中又以投資詐欺最多，被害人達到1萬9,327人，占了總被害人的35.14%，人數是最多的。刑事局在10月2號對外表示，在防堵詐騙集團以虛擬貨幣進行洗錢的部分，刑事局已查扣102億的虛擬貨幣，並已針對非法的幣商進行專案的查緝，以阻斷詐團利用虛擬貨幣來躲避追查。金管會在9月22號也公告首波完成洗錢防制登記的虛擬資產業者名單，共有9家業者得繼續經營業務，但有18家舊制業者未登記，不得再提供虛擬資產的服務。所以我要請問主委，對於這18家不得再提供虛擬資產服務的業者，金管會有無持續追蹤？就是在9月22號你們公告以後，他們是否真的已經停止提供相關的服務？有沒有追蹤？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實這一點我們跟檢調都有保持密切的聯繫，只要沒有在9月30號以前登記，如果實際從事，都是違法的，我們檢查局的同仁會到現場去看，也會把相關的情資提供給檢調去做事後的查緝。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我看了你今天的業務報告，你表示有對外同步公告已不得再提供虛擬資產服務的舊制業者名單來供民眾查詢，所以我想請問主委，除了公告以外，你們還有採取哪些措施？"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是這個名單的部分，因為民眾可能看到有一家業者，他就想去看看是不是金管會所公告名單上的業者，在過去曾經發生過在網路上的是歷史名單，有民眾看到了，他就以為還有，所以我們要即時的更新，就像我們金管會的網站會公告合格業者的名單，這個是我們要隨時來做更新的。"],["林委員思銘：我知道，我是要問你除了公告這些不能再繼續提供服務的業者名單以外，你還會採取哪些措施？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就我所知，現在我們會請檢查局和通知檢警調對這個部分進行主動查核。"],["林委員思銘：主委，如果查到的話，依照我們現在的相關法規有哪些罰則？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的罰則最重可以處兩年徒刑。"],["林委員思銘：有刑責就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有刑責，登記制以後開始有刑責。"],["林委員思銘：就只有刑責而已？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["林委員思銘：我看到刑事局也有促請金管會協作加強監管禁止現金交易，所以金管會所採取的防制措施有哪些？對於這些防堵現金交易的措施，有採取哪些措施？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我們剛開始在所謂聲明制的時候，有很多業者設了很多所謂的兌幣機，也就是BTM，因為這部分很多都用現金交易，現金交易就沒辦法去追蹤它的KYC，也不知道是誰來做這個交易。所以後來我們發現這個問題以後，我們就直接去函要求公會，所有的東西就不能用現金交易，這對很多在從事比較灰色事業的業者立刻就產生嚇阻作用，很多業者覺得這部分可能沒辦法做，它就自己收掉了，有幾家是這樣子，這樣也有助於我們對於一些詐騙的阻止。當然我們也不會妨礙，因為你只要透過銀行的戶頭去匯款買賣就可以了。"],["林委員思銘：主委，你剛才提到你有採取一些措施，我想請教除了採取這些措施以外，你是否有充分掌握這些違法業者的名單？就是它還在從事現金交易，你有沒有查到哪些名單？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們檢查局應該可以來說明一下，檢查局都有例行性對他們做檢查，是不是也可以請我們局長跟委員簡單報告一下？"],["林委員思銘：好，請局長回答。"],["賴局長欣國：跟委員報告，我們在今年對12家虛擬資產業者進行檢查，有發現一些業者可能涉及不法現金交易的部分，我們已經把相關資料提供給……"],["林委員思銘：名單都有掌握了？"],["賴局長欣國：對，我們已經提供給檢警調繼續再做後續的偵辦。"],["林委員思銘：已經有充分的掌握了？"],["賴局長欣國：是。"],["林委員思銘：OK！謝謝。我再請教主委，我們剛才一直在關心的虛擬資產服務法，這個專法在今年6月27日已經報行政院了，草案包含穩定幣的發行及管理，還有一些相關的監管要求，但是目前還躺在行政院，金管會原先宣示今年底就要公布施行，但是現在看起來時間有點趕了。而且目前我看到有銀行業者，凱基銀行宣布將與全球最大的美元穩定幣發行商Tether合作推動虛擬貨幣的應用資產服務，所以法規如果不能及時上路，恐怕對投資人的保障會有很大的不足。目前我們看到除了民眾黨，還有幾位委員都有提案，請問主委，貴會送交行政院的版本到底何時會送到立法院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實金管會是沒辦法宣示我們什麼時候要送，那要透過行政院跨部會的審查，由政委來召集跨部會審查，我們已經開過會，會加速來請行政院審查。"],["林委員思銘：所以在這個會期內沒有辦法順利地付委審查？"],["彭主任委員金隆：站在金管會立場，我們是希望能夠儘快地來審查，因為這部法律通過以後，還有大概7部子法，我們現在都在準備中，這7部子法通過才有辦法上路，所以這部分還需要一點時間。剛剛委員提到會不會有空窗或是怎麼樣，剛剛也有委員質詢到，我們現在採用的是登記制，某種程度來講，雖然登記制的整個效力和範圍沒有像虛擬資產服務專法那麼地完備，但是現在已經可以透過登記制對這個機構及其行為做一定程度的控管。"],["林委員思銘：主委，有專法對我們投資人的保障會比較足夠。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然！"],["林委員思銘：所以我還是希望主委一定要跟行政院多做溝通，儘速把這部法律送到立法院來做審查，讓它三讀通過。另外，關於穩定幣的發行，金管會是否也已經跟央行討論規劃，未來穩定幣發行的幣別種類以及應用服務的範圍，你們有沒有跟央行討論？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們當時在立這個草案，還有關於數位現金的部分，我們一直都有跟央行保持聯繫，再來，未來的虛擬資產服務法中的穩定幣部分也是由金管會和央行共管，未來是要共同管理這一塊市場。"],["林委員思銘：所以有跟央行做規劃討論。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然！"],["林委員思銘：另外，主委，有關亞洲資產管理中心，臺灣週將於後天（10月15日）在高雄開幕，活動重點聚焦在亞資的政策上，以打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，並推出一系列的論壇、座談、博覽會。目前有33家金融業參與，包含17家銀行、12家證券期貨投信投顧公司、4家保險公司，證期局也表示，截至目前已經有2.4萬人次報名，法人機構參與家數為34家，專從國外來臺參與的外資則逾140人次，分別來自日本、韓國、新加坡、香港、美國、印尼、印度、越南、柬埔寨等地。主委也指出臺灣擁有豐沛的民間資金以及國際競爭力的產業，這些都是我們躋身國際、邁向未來的重要基礎，將打造臺灣成為亞洲資產管理中心，這也是行政院經發會的重要計畫之一，此次將藉由臺灣週向全球投資人展示臺灣的經濟實力。行政院在明年度的施政報告中也提到，高雄設立資產管理專區開放38項業務，還要透過ETF、永續債券、TISA帳戶來帶動發展。另外，金管會針對我國總體經濟分析，在臺灣發展亞洲資產管理中心條件的簡報資料中也指出，國內資金很充沛，銀行存款有54.9兆，超額儲蓄連續四年超過3兆，壽險資產超過34兆，但是我國如果要和香港、新加坡競爭的話，現階段缺乏國際市場關心的稅賦優惠、外匯自由化、語言等環境優勢，這些都是目前我們無法避免的結構性劣勢。請問主委，根據這些財經媒體的報導，政府強調國際合作、跨境ETF掛牌，但實際資金流入規模有限，雖然政府在高雄設立專區、推動TISA專戶，但根本結構性的問題要如何克服？能不能在這邊向國人、投資人表示，我們具備什麼樣的優勢及能力，跟香港、新加坡來競爭亞洲資產管理中心的地位？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員提到的問題其實都已經非常完整，要發展一個金融中心或資產管理中心要有很多的條件，所有條件我們都有，當然最好，但是我們應該這樣想，我們沒有的趕快加速來爭取或建構；我們有的地方要好好地利用，所以我們就先開始起步來做這件事情。比如，稅賦和外匯的部分主要是針對外部資金，但是怎麼讓本國資金留下來，可能是我們現階段最重要的工作，所以這部分我們會循序漸進來推動。"],["林委員思銘：主委，最後一個問題，我們在政策設計上到底是偏向留財還是引資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們先以留財為主軸，但是引資絕對是我們要做的，這兩個是雙向，但是我們一定要先做到能夠留財，再談引資才會更現實、更具體，所以我們這兩個是同時做，當然我們現在主要是先針對留住臺灣的財富為現階段的工作。"],["林委員思銘：OK！主委，加油！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林召委。","接下來請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc3878036e18fa407585f90000f7f2f0ab8b7b742ce678790039c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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謝謝委員好鄭委員好好 大家辛苦了今天談這個主要是談花蓮風災的這些案子"},{"start":34.298,"end":62.287,"text":"今天没有要究责但是我们要去要事实的就凭事实来检讨才能够精进才能够精进防范还可以做一个防范看农业部的报告你的报告提到是从今年的7月下旬7月下旬然后花莲分属7月26号空刊确认"},{"start":63.82,"end":87.806,"text":"然后提到这个7月26号应变小组然后提到这个7月26号之后的然后请那个杨明交大8月11号然后成功大学8月20号这时间差我们也必须要去了解好我们来看部长"},{"start":90.034,"end":103.568,"text":"这个马太安西晏赛福这个报告单这个报告单是林业署所做的报告这里面就提到马太安西之流"},{"start":104.611,"end":133.013,"text":"自109年起支流上游裸露面积逐年扩大且其以主流满溪汇流处有时有细水有时无细水细水面积约0.25公顷113年康瑞台风或支流幼安尤其下游侧开始有几步崩塌再持续后退这个时间我们就先要去检讨"},{"start":133.74,"end":159.799,"text":"也就是為了因應未來都還會有台灣是一個常常會有這種煙災府的地方過去的經驗尤其以現在的經驗未來怎麼樣發現的時候怎麼樣就要把它處理越早處理就越可以解決問題這個部分沒有要究責我們是要整個要把它弄清楚"},{"start":161.33,"end":179.299,"text":"你的報告如果不清楚的時候因為很多東西不是你負責的不是林業部可以負責的不是林業署可以負責的是相關部會要共同的要去負責要去承擔要去推動要去執行好你的報告裡面提到7月26號林業"},{"start":181.992,"end":194.901,"text":"属花莲分属花莲分属召开应变小组会议当然你只能花莲分属只能通知这底下的包括像比如说水利属的第九河川分属对不对"},{"start":196.428,"end":222.523,"text":"他有限啊 资源有限啊他能做什么呢他只能轻易他能有加固加高提防的那个能力吗没有啊他要有经费啊所以必须要层级要提高啊这个就是要我们要去检讨的地方8月6号也是一样花莲分署召开防灾分工协调会8月12号才提升到"},{"start":223.496,"end":231.939,"text":"林業署資商也不足就應該要農業部甚至行政院已經8月12號囉對不對這個都是我們要去檢討改進的地方我們看這個8月20號林業署第二次專案諮詢會議8月28號"},{"start":246.417,"end":267.592,"text":"提到花蓮分署召開河道疏峻只是疏峻而已所以這個部分是一個怎麼樣去拉高層級怎麼樣去因應所以未來應該要訂一個遇到院賽府的時候要怎麼樣處理要有這樣的一個新的一個規劃新的計劃"},{"start":273,"end":293.387,"text":"8月27號才提升到行政院還責成你們農業部成立專案小組所以這個都是需要去檢討改進的地方接下來農業部的部分當然房子不是你負責我要讓你知道的是說農田我們現在談農田農田被淹埋"},{"start":298.139,"end":327.218,"text":"农田农田被淹埋抱歉这个跳到了这个农田被淹埋得很严重那现在这个农田要怎么去处理好这个是原来的原来这么美丽的一个地方这么漂亮的一个农田也非常好好"},{"start":327.83,"end":355.558,"text":"这是筛钱你看摘后就是这样非常高比这个比房子一楼一样高的那个农田全部被淹满这个农机很多农机没有证明的你说要有农机证明你说没有农机证明呢我买二手的就没有农机证明这个都要放宽所以"},{"start":356.592,"end":369.554,"text":"農田的部分就是要挖掘這個土石挖掘土石 清潤土石還要怎麼樣有的必要的時候還要換土部長可以嗎"},{"start":371.494,"end":387.661,"text":"我們先針對農田我想很簡單的跟委員報告就是有關於農田淹沒的部分那我們大概分為兩個層次處理一個層次是有一些光屋鄉有些農田沒有被土淹沒但是它的灌溉渠道受阻了"},{"start":387.961,"end":402.332,"text":"那這個部分我們會加快的用沼井的方式做緊急供水那第二個部分土石淹沒的地方有的大概幾十公分大概大概十公分有的甚至五六公尺所以相對的我們提出了三個方案這三個方案包括"},{"start":403.345,"end":431.177,"text":"有一個原地重劃或是農地重劃或者是把土砂全部移除這三個方案我們後續會跟我們鄉當地所有居民做一些座談然後達到一個最大的共識那我們秉持的兩個原則就是整個的後面的農田的再生的一個富裕的部分一定是讓農民最有利的而且讓農業的經營是最永續的換土要挖土這個一定要協助農民沒辦法"},{"start":432.433,"end":458.698,"text":"對 這個我們會來做剛才講的農機只要能夠證明確實是他的而且被淹埋了農機你是剛剛提到的灌灌這個農機的部分我們也已經調整了我有親自看了你們那個現在在抽在挖那個要再挖在抽水那個部分農民都認為沒有辦法 因為不足"},{"start":459.468,"end":484.522,"text":"所以灌溉用水這個部分我們事後可以再討論我們請經濟部還有水利署這個部分今年的8月13號所提的附帶決議是本席提出來透過國民黨團寫出來的所以這個部分針對水利署的部分當然現在你們都積極的在做了"},{"start":487.879,"end":517.471,"text":"积极短期的10月5号已经完成加高要非常谢谢水利署的同仁但是如果当初我们就讲7月26号了7月26号之后如果当初有这样做的话也可以防范这些土石洪水冲到这个社区部落包括农田所以这个部分都是我们要去怎么样去加强因应这个是像这样的一个数据当然"},{"start":518.274,"end":526.524,"text":"要积极的来做另外就是说我也亲自去跟哲理署的同仁去下游"},{"start":529.17,"end":558.16,"text":"下游直接沖刷的阿多摩東富村還有三星三星這個當初就沒有注意到這個三星這個地方也破了計算的時候要務必要把它計算到裡面所以這個部分包括很多的一個需要去積極處理的部分要請經濟部要請水利署繼續的辛苦好不好謝謝"},{"start":560.031,"end":562.016,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員 謝謝我們的部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":781,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時13分）召委、各位委員。請農業部部長及經濟部部長。"],["主席：請兩位部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["龔部長明鑫：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席是不是請我們時部長來 請部長吳元豪"},{"start":14.631,"end":34.393,"text":"部長 今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市 桃園市 高雄市 屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬 已經開出去的"},{"start":35.994,"end":58.434,"text":"那算是很重的罰處分應該是歷年來算是最重的歷年來最重的整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿第一個是10月3號露出的整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿"},{"start":59.235,"end":78.244,"text":"新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天"},{"start":79.184,"end":103.81,"text":"比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局這個衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動"},{"start":104.87,"end":126.197,"text":"你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的"},{"start":128.018,"end":141.409,"text":"你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉"},{"start":150.662,"end":160.787,"text":"跟委員報告 因為目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有偵查這個案件據我所知 6月的時候"},{"start":169.812,"end":197.619,"text":"檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的"},{"start":198.963,"end":210.808,"text":"該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的"},{"start":214.91,"end":227.219,"text":"是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說他是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰他五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉"},{"start":242.811,"end":264.805,"text":"那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已啦所以這個我們內部有要求檢討整個那個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化"},{"start":269.415,"end":279.202,"text":"那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜館單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢"},{"start":283.307,"end":310.567,"text":"這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期"},{"start":311.728,"end":333.456,"text":"共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤瞭解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎"},{"start":334.332,"end":361.38,"text":"我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權會發現有這個司法權進入這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查"},{"start":363.741,"end":378.218,"text":"初步調查就是行政調查嘛 行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查"},{"start":379.099,"end":394.908,"text":"但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的"},{"start":398.21,"end":408.917,"text":"然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為"},{"start":410.492,"end":432.908,"text":"如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索"},{"start":433.749,"end":445.022,"text":"在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚 吃下肚誰要負責 誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在 署長你講了 大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎"},{"start":454.213,"end":473.24,"text":"行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律 食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長 署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號"},{"start":475.543,"end":501.62,"text":"有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保7總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號"},{"start":502.921,"end":523.752,"text":"地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的不要再講了啦署長我們食安法第41條第2項"},{"start":526.994,"end":546.771,"text":"我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水 雙氧水在那裡"},{"start":548.086,"end":570.06,"text":"然後你們說7月底減掉就裂案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去 怕證據被消失那我們 我跟你說實案法 大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了"},{"start":572.782,"end":597.144,"text":"照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了"},{"start":597.99,"end":604.711,"text":"你們在這裡 如果教書長說的交給司法單位 檢警單位比較保全"},{"start":606.277,"end":631.584,"text":"那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼"},{"start":632.591,"end":650.29,"text":"我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量 自行決定"},{"start":651.531,"end":679.606,"text":"全責不分 你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失 制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查 不調查有沒有調查 部長剛才講的 你都不知道 頂頭都不知道那這樣子 有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性"},{"start":680.666,"end":703.378,"text":"所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們"},{"start":705.751,"end":711.566,"text":"是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講"},{"start":713.055,"end":740.916,"text":"立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後呢署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處不是"},{"start":743.238,"end":757.579,"text":"十三五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管"},{"start":758.769,"end":784.442,"text":"沒有完全都沒有預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡你們是連有鬼都不抓"},{"start":787.506,"end":802.412,"text":"6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做"},{"start":805.973,"end":826.179,"text":"我因為有問 這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件 蘇丹紅事件 所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權"},{"start":827.543,"end":853.786,"text":"直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後"},{"start":854.747,"end":869.413,"text":"然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定"},{"start":870.513,"end":884.692,"text":"人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了 揭弊了食藥署"},{"start":886.83,"end":905.449,"text":"卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務"},{"start":907.13,"end":933.176,"text":"讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多部長你覺得這樣合理嗎你自己可以接受嗎這個我跟委員一樣在這個事情處理過程當中我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告那麼包含接受檢舉之後的所有的SOP的檢討還有內部通報流程的檢討那麼以及呢"},{"start":934.016,"end":958.378,"text":"不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已"},{"start":959.284,"end":975.538,"text":"你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩"},{"start":976.539,"end":991.958,"text":"今天黑心的大腸案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議 尤其是"},{"start":992.839,"end":1016.268,"text":"食藥署很常以偵查不公開 唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己為善盡行政監督之責所以我們今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因"},{"start":1017.208,"end":1032.999,"text":"而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼所以如果这种状况有鬼就不抓了所以这不仅是行圣施责还可能构成毒指和泄密的刑责"},{"start":1033.86,"end":1053.517,"text":"在這種狀況裡面 部長我在這裡要求這個內部 內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人獨職 有沒有人要被追究責任 行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊"},{"start":1054.478,"end":1072.684,"text":"這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要讓黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成次度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革"},{"start":1073.932,"end":1086.607,"text":"這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項"},{"start":1090.546,"end":1109.894,"text":"就有了然後你剛才的報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做"},{"start":1110.754,"end":1135.724,"text":"然後再來諮詢 上4月的諮詢 延誘在而 還不到半年接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了 中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉這樣不對的 行政究責 制度改善好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒部長署長 今天會排這個狀態"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（9時57分）謝謝主席，是不是請我們石部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["石部長崇良：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天屏東百威的食品案件，這個產品流向了臺北市、桃園市、高雄市、屏東縣，那你們說要重懲5,000萬以上，最後是罰多少錢？"],["石部長崇良：5,400萬，罰單已經開出去了。"],["林委員淑芬：5,400萬？那算是很重的處分？"],["石部長崇良：應該是歷年來算最重的。"],["林委員淑芬：歷年來最重的，那整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿，第一個是10月3號露出的，整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿，新聞稿裡面屏東地檢署說：我們在10月1號依法搜索。所以10月1號去搜索，10月3號地檢署才發出新聞稿，你們食藥署是隔了一天，比地檢署還要慢，你們也發了一個新聞稿，你們的新聞稿講說：我們食藥署近日會同地檢署、農業部、保七、法務部調查局、衛生局前去稽查。這個10月4號的新聞稿講得好像是你們主動，你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位進場去查核，到底是檢調找你們，還是你們找檢調？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，因為這個案子是由我們南區中心移送給檢調的，所以等於是……"],["林委員淑芬：你們南區中心移送給檢調，那你們食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子？"],["石部長崇良：這個有檢舉。"],["林委員淑芬：是檢舉來的？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["林委員淑芬：檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉？跟誰檢舉？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，因為目前這整個案子都還在偵辦中，我們有偵查。委員，我們私下再……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你不能在這邊說這句話喔！"],["石部長崇良：私下我們再跟委員提供資料。"],["林委員淑芬：這個案件據我所知，檢舉人是6月就檢舉了。是跟誰檢舉？是跟食藥署南區管理中心，所以恰恰好是跟衛福部食藥署檢舉的。6月是誰收下這起檢舉案的？部長，6月的時候檢舉，你什麼時候才知道的？署長，你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的？該不會是跟我一樣、跟大家一樣，直到10月3號看到新聞露出，才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧？而且這個案子處分了5,400萬，誠如部長剛才所說的，這是這幾年來最重的處分。","由此可知，照你們新聞稿所說明的，它是故意違規，嚴重破壞社會秩序安定，嚴重影響食品安全，所以你們才重罰它5,400萬。如果這個案子這麼重大，6月就有人跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉，部長、署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道這個案子的吧？你們早就知道了，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，這個案子就我所掌握到的情形，確實是大概比委員早一點而已。所以這個我們內部……"],["林委員淑芬：早一點噢？那署長呢？"],["石部長崇良：有要求檢討整個內部通報的機制，我們會去強化。"],["林委員淑芬：那署長是什麼時候知道的？你是直接的業管單位，食藥署自己接受檢舉，為什麼6月檢舉，10月1號才展開行動呢？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做進一步的報告，我們接收到訊息之後，當然分層是一件事情；第二部分，我們研判這個是明知故犯的，目前雙氧水是在食品級的，是食品添加物。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！我知道啦！"],["姜署長至剛：我們認為它現在的健康風險是在，但這是明知故犯的，所以我們就啟動移轉保七共同偵查。在偵查的過程中我們了解……"],["林委員淑芬：移轉保七共同偵查？"],["姜署長至剛：對，然後跟農業部進一步……後來成案的時候是在7月，我們有持續去追蹤、了解這個案情的發展，後續也有很多細節可以跟委員進一步說明。"],["林委員淑芬：結果據你所知，不管保七還是任何的行政部門，在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我跟委員進一步說明，就我們的了解，其實這是一個相當嚴密的犯罪組織，所以在這過程中，我們行政單位的行政權後來發現有司法權介入這樣的……"],["林委員淑芬：好，沒關係，不用……今天部長你聽聽看，你們衛福部剛才報告過，書面報告也還存在。你們的食安事件處理流程，你剛才才說明的應變處理，第一個叫初步調查，初步調查就是行政調查嘛！根據食安法第四十一條，人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉，然後根據第四十一條的普通程序是地方政府介入調查，但第四十一條第二項上面講「中央主管機關於必要時，亦得為前項規定之措施」，就是直接介入調查。你現在講它是故意的，而且是重大的，還是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的，然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候，第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查，但你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為。","如果一個重大的食安事件，有人跟你食藥署檢舉了，你食藥署依法可以直接介入進行行政調查，但你都不願意。從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調進到它的工廠裡面去搜索，在整個過程當中，這幾個月又讓多少人把黑心的食品吃下肚？誰要負責？現在是怎樣？你們大家現在……"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做簡短地報告……"],["林委員淑芬：署長你講了，大家都說我們交給檢調就好了。食藥署這麼好當嗎？行政單位都等司法單位去做、去調查就好了，自己都不用行政調查？食安法第四十一條放在那裡是要做什麼的？部長、署長，你們和立法院在座的大家說明，從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號，有沒有任何的行政調查？你覺得完全沒有行政調查，直接交給檢調就好了，到10月1號才進去……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：這樣子做對嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：事實上不是這樣子的。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那你說說看。"],["姜署長至剛：我們在6月23號查獲的時候，因為相關的內容，我們預計的時候……我們跟保七總隊覺得施政不足是在6月底，本來預計7月14號要做行政稽查，但7月9號地檢署就確定成案。所以在成案的情形之下就交由司法調查，並不代表食藥署沒有做行政調查的準備。因為是確定成案，有司法的介入，我們才有機會在這樣的重要案件裡面能夠……"],["林委員淑芬：不要再講了啦！署長，食安法第四十一條第二項，如果檢舉人直接跟你食藥署檢舉，而且檢附這麼多的證據，我敢說他檢附的證據很多，而且照片就是罪證確鑿在那裡。後來10月1號檢警調進廠區裡面一看，就是直接看到工業級的漂白水、雙氧水在那裡。然後你們說7月底檢調就立案了，你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去，怕證據被消失。","部長你說說看，大家說做行政調查業者會滅證，那食安法整部法律、整個行政調查是不是可以廢了？照你們的講法，只有檢調進去才能夠完整的保全證據。如果是這樣子的話，我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查？而你們今天到立法院來報告，認為在食安事件的處理流程中最重要的應變處理，第一步就叫做行政調查，你們在這裡，如果照署長說的，交給司法單位、檢警單位比較保全，那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼？","我今天要講的是，你們對檢舉案件的消極態度，照你今天的這個講法就是在掩蓋。人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉，你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造、繼續販賣黑心食品，這個誰要負責？而且我們擔心的是什麼？我們擔心的是，連食藥署內部對檢舉案件的處理流程都這麼缺乏有效的監督管理機制，連你們要不要實施行政調查，都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量、自行決定，可謂權責不分，你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎？制度面的缺失……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們一定會積極改善的。"],["林委員淑芬：制度面的缺失就是隨便讓這些基層單位決定要不要做行政調查，就像部長剛才說的，連有沒有調查你們都不知道。上面都不知道的話，這種制度面的缺失有沒有造成吃案的可能性？所以啊，署長，我當時質詢的時候就跟你講，我們過去食品安全的議題都是靠揭弊者揭發，而對於今天的這個案子，你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知恥地說你們有會同，然後找檢警調……不是嘛！不是你會同他們，而是人家檢舉了，你們擱置著沒有處理，然後我還跟你講，上次我在立法院質詢過署長，在今年的4月24號，我說食品、藥品通通都是揭弊者主動去揭發才產生問題，你們才去做風險評估，才去做風險控管。過去是這樣子，然後署長你告訴我，我們食安五環會發生作用。食安五環最核心的價值不是剛才部長在這裡回答大家的，可以追蹤去處、追蹤來處，不是！食安五環的登錄制度，最終是要發揮預警的效果，可以在問題還沒有發生前就可以主動發現問題，讓政府可以做到風險控管。沒有！完全都沒有預警的效果，通通都沒有！更不要講今天是靠檢舉，到今天仍然是靠檢舉，而今天的大問題是食藥署以前的稽查都抓不到鬼的，但今天人家檢舉了，告訴你鬼在哪裡，你們是連有鬼都不抓！從6月拖到10月，這個東西有鬼也懶得抓，都叫檢調去抓就好了，食藥署跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎？部長，你聽好，為什麼食藥署是慣性這樣子做？這個是有原因的，從黑心油事件、蘇丹紅事件，所有的食安事件，食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法，食髓知味，就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權，直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了，因為到時候立委索資、立委質詢，通通一律這樣子制式回答，我唸給你們聽：報告委員，因為現在檢調偵查當中，偵查不公開，所以無法提供資料和進度。這就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發、檢調加入調查以後，都可以這樣子搪塞立法院和立委：報告委員，檢調調查了，偵查不公開，我現在不能夠告訴你。但是我要講人民何其無辜啊！部長，人民的健康安全，就是因為食藥署的怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅，現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了、檢舉了、揭弊了，食藥署卻將全部精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處，以平息民怨，罰5,400萬，可是你們忽略了、放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務，讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多。部長，你覺得這樣合理嗎？你自己可以接受嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我跟委員一樣，在這件事情處理過程當中，我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告，包含接受檢舉之後的所有SOP的檢討，還有內部通報流程的檢討，以及不能夠只單純依賴檢調，我們要拿出我們的行政權跟地方衛生局強化即時性的反應，不要因為移送檢調之後，反而造成綁手綁腳。"],["林委員淑芬：因為照署長的講法，中央食藥署好像變成總機而已，只負責轉案而已，食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮，有人檢舉不肖業者，主管機關放水吃案，以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩。今天黑心大腸案直接跟食藥署檢舉了，竟然直接放棄行政調查權，如果檢調沒有動作，這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海？而中央主管機關很常以偵查不公開為由，拒絕對外說明，尤其是食藥署，事實上是用司法程序巨額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布，這一次就是澈底地掩蓋自己未善盡行政監督之責。所以今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足，人力不足也不是主因，而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰，還有可能發生的裡應外合、內神通外鬼，如果是這種狀況，大概有鬼就不抓了，這不僅是行政失職，還可能構成瀆職和洩密的刑責。在這種狀況裡面，部長，我在這裡要求內部要不要啟動行政調查，調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對，有沒有人瀆職、有沒有人要被追究行政責任？這樣對人民才能交代啊！這樣才能夠重拾主動調查和風險管理的角色，建立一個有效的預警和查核機制，不要再讓黑心食品事件一次一次發生，人家檢舉之後還變成制度怠惰、檢舉人變成受害者，內部調查、究責、改革，這有沒有可能會做？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，在這個事件，當然我們在接獲檢舉後，很快就移送檢調，只不過在處理的過程當中，行政單位如何更積極，我們內部會來做檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：第四十一條第二項就有了，然後你剛才報告的第一點就有了，包括你們署長，我們認為他上任應該是會更積極，勇於任事，沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上！人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉，整個案子連行政調查都不做，在4月的質詢言猶在耳，還不到半年，揭弊者的案件已經被行政怠惰到全部交給檢調就好了，中央食藥署變成總機轉、轉、轉，這樣是不對的，請行政究責，制度改善。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：提醒部長、署長，今天會排這個專案報告一定是有特殊的原因，謝謝。","接下來請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"164005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc6cf17ef321488ca485f90000f7f2f0ab8b7b742ce6787900563cb0ca640d278f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:03:03 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有齁你覺得有 是全部都有還是部分有它好像有分歧 不一樣的可不可以詳細說明一下"},{"start":68.561,"end":90.991,"text":"二委員好那麼目前太陽光電的系統的耐震跟耐風是依照建築法的規定比照當地的這個耐震跟耐風的標準那麼經過這次丹納斯颱風之後那我們發現如果依那個標準還是會有回損所以我們現在把它提高到我們已經修法把它提高到要耐17級風也就最高級"},{"start":91.531,"end":107.419,"text":"全部都要耐17級就是原本獨立的光電設施要耐17級屋頂型的有沒有要求要耐17級屋頂型的要耐17級那地面型的那麼除了這種一般的規定之外我們還要它依這個災防法"},{"start":109.46,"end":129.669,"text":"要訂定所謂搶救計畫就是說當他遇到風災或其他災害的時候他要依照災防法去提報他的緊急應變跟搶救計畫所以說我們接下來所有的光電數相關的設施包括獨立型的跟屋頂型的全部都要求耐風17級是這樣子的情況嗎"},{"start":131.59,"end":155.618,"text":"目前奈豐17級是對屋頂型的因為屋頂它在比較高的地方風會比較大而且如果它散落那地面型的呢地面型的我們是要求它提高它符合這個就是我們建築物的管制規定以外那另外它還要依災方法提出它的災防搶救計畫有沒有具體的標準奈豐要到幾級才可以"},{"start":156.742,"end":171.76,"text":"依照目前那个所谓耐风的强度是依照地域的不同通常会有14级到15级16级但是没有地面型的没有规定到17级的OK好理解固定型的就强制规范了"},{"start":171.98,"end":191.954,"text":"因為這一次的那個大肆颱風來之後很多光電設施都出了很多的一個狀態所以我們是對於整個光電板後續的一個維護跟管理的問題其實我們非常非常的擔心那我在這邊也要再請教一個問題就是我們這次大肆颱風的時候對於離岸風電的風機有沒有造成影響"},{"start":193.54,"end":215.84,"text":"完全沒有 完全沒有影響 而且發電量很好還持續嘛 颱風來那我這邊我要特別再講一件事情因為我們從那個山之山之後我們其實國產化就沒有要求那針對於整個我們水下機裝的一個部分我們目前怎麼樣的去維護我們機裝的一個安全"},{"start":218.649,"end":232.269,"text":"不會被侵蝕是用犧牲羊脊的方式還是用什麼樣子的方式目前有很多啦犧牲羊脊是其中的一個方法但是目前這個所謂離岸風電的水下集裝跟它的設計"},{"start":233.086,"end":255.74,"text":"都要經過國際上的檢驗通過我們現在除了說用西森陽疾我們還有用其他什麼樣的方式可不可以請聰先生做一個說明因為它有的是陰疾防止有陽疾防止也有陰疾防止那也另外除了這個之外那它還有透過一些表面的防止的所以這些防止的部分的時候是不是會造成鋁離子的一個釋出"},{"start":256.886,"end":269.425,"text":"這個我們都有做監測有長期在監測嗎這個是就有要求離岸風電的業者他要去做監測而且他要把監測的結果公告在他們公司的網站上"},{"start":271.189,"end":291.277,"text":"針對這個部分我想到時候請市長這邊再給我更詳細的狀態因為我們看到整個歐洲他們一個情況就是一個水下機裝的一個那個25年來大概會釋放出10噸的鋁你知道嗎非常非常的驚人那我們接下來的時候預計我們的離岸風電大概總共會有幾支"},{"start":293.749,"end":321.199,"text":"目前我們已經完工的有在運轉的有440幾座那接下來要持續開放的咧接下來大概未來我們還剛才講的我們有3.1 3.2那麼未來我們正在規劃3.3那當然未來的情形可能要看廠商開標我們開標得標之後的狀況OK 針對這個部分我們對於水下基礎的防石的部分是本席有特別的關注"},{"start":321.579,"end":347.286,"text":"所以你剛剛提到說要業者他們自己去監控然後在他們的公司網站上面提出報告的時候我想我們可能會需要更進一步的一個要求那詳細的一個相關的規定的時候我想你們之後再到本辦公室來做一個說明好 謝謝那針對那個當然是颱風這邊的時候我想請教一下內政部的內政部這邊正是在國務長可以先請回 謝謝"},{"start":353.237,"end":378.608,"text":"市長因為那個我們整個災防法的時候主管單位是內政部嘛那麼我們在這一次的那個丹納斯颱風之後的時候呢我們看到了幾個問題第一個狀態的時候是當我們民眾要提供救災物資的時候還有地方政府他們要需求的時候沒有一個非常清楚的一個平台那這個狀態的時候在丹納斯7月份丹納斯颱風發生的時候我們已經看到了"},{"start":379.168,"end":399.063,"text":"9月份花蓮這邊光復這邊的時候又碰到更嚴重的一個情況針對這個部分的時候我們內政部這邊是不是有一個很具體的一個狀態針對整個資訊的一個救災平台的需求跟供給是不是有一個可以做一個長期的一個建置"},{"start":401.371,"end":418.551,"text":"跟委員報告在整個災害發生的當下是由中央災害防治中心指揮中心來指揮那災害發生之後相關的救災跟重建是由中央災害指揮中心以及地方的前進指揮所在指揮"},{"start":419.272,"end":440.12,"text":"那根據全責的狀況基本上所有的救災行為的第一時間是由地方政府他必須負起相關的責任中央只能作為一個相關的協助的角色這是在災防法以及地方制度法裡面明確規範也就是說地方政府必須負起相關的責任其實因為我們看到很多的狀態是中央跟地方的同仁在規則啦因為災防法的主管其實在內政部這邊所以我們希望這邊能夠"},{"start":444.762,"end":472.619,"text":"固定有一個固定的平台的一個建制包括志工的一個投入當中各方面的狀態不會出現太多的一個亂象對 跟委員報告在我們整個的花蓮的救災的狀況是在前進指揮所設立之後東部辦公室也受行政院指示那立即成立相關的物資協調中心跟所有的物資的調處那麼在紀政委進駐前進指揮所之後紀政委也立刻發揮相關的指揮同事"},{"start":473.039,"end":492.468,"text":"就是因為紀政委進場之後才開始穩定下來可是這是在紀政委進駐之前的時候是非常的混亂的所以我們才希望說內政部既然是一個債管法的一個主管單位的時候我們希望能夠把這樣子的一個平台先建制起來而且不是針對一個特定的一個"},{"start":493.448,"end":521.062,"text":"使用而是一個變成是一個長期性的狀態如果發生災情的時候地方政府可以透過這個平台去跟外界籌集資源那麼很多的NGO的單位很多的民間單位他們如果有資源要提供的時候也可以透過這樣的一個平台那麼我們希望內政部這邊去研究一下這部分是不是能夠把它建立起來否則目前這兩次七月份跟九月份我們看到都是民間走在政府前面先把這個平台做起來好不好"},{"start":521.782,"end":540.52,"text":"好 謝謝委員指教我還是要跟委員做一個說明就是說 相關內政部應該負責是在中央災害防御中心的相關的應變跟指揮那麼地方政府必須負起在第一線的相關的權責所以我現在要做的不只是這狀態我想是一個溝通的平台嗎一個溝通的平台是對你們來說都這麼困難嗎"},{"start":543.022,"end":570.179,"text":"你們主管這樣一個平台都這麼困難嗎在這裡沒有要推我沒有在這邊覺得說這責任是地方要去承擔還是中央去承擔我只覺得一個中央地方共同的一個救災的平台建立起來有這麼困難嗎這個我們會回去研究但是要跟政府要跟委員報告就是說相關的整個的物資的運作其實地方政府在我們委員會這邊的時候我們很希望是怎麼樣解決問題而不是要怎麼樣子藉由任何的機會在推責任好不好"},{"start":571.04,"end":573.331,"text":"我們會回去商量做完整的研究謝謝 謝謝曾委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時3分）主席好，我想先請教一下經濟部長。"],["主席：請經濟部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：鄭委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。今天主席安排「丹娜絲颱風及728豪雨災後復原重建情形」的專案報告，我認為在這次丹娜絲颱風當中，大家最關心的就是光電的相關問題，剛剛很多委員也都問到這件事情，我想先請教部長，我們對建築物除了有耐震的要求，也有耐風的要求，請問部長是否知道我們對光電建物有沒有耐風的要求？"],["龔部長明鑫：我知道有，應該有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你覺得有，是全部都有，還是部分有？"],["龔部長明鑫：它好像有分級。我請署長說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，可不可以詳細說明一下？"],["李署長君禮：委員好。目前太陽光電系統的耐震和耐風是依照建築法的規定，比照當地的耐震和耐風標準，經過這次丹娜絲颱風之後，我們發現依那個標準還是會有毀損，所以我們已經修法，把它提高到要耐17級風，也就是最高級的風……"],["鄭委員正鈐：全部都要耐17級？"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是原本獨立的光電設施要耐17級，屋頂型的有沒有要求要耐17級？"],["李署長君禮：屋頂型的要耐17級，地面型的除了一般的規定之外，我們還要它依災防法訂定所謂的搶救計畫，也就是當它遇到風災或其他災害的時候，要依照災防法提報它的緊急應變和搶救計畫。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。所以接下來所有的光電相關設施，包括獨立型和屋頂型的，全部都要求耐風17級，是這樣子的情況嗎？"],["李署長君禮：目前耐風17級是針對屋頂型的，因為屋頂在比較高的地方，風會比較大，而且如果它散落的話，影響也會比較大。"],["鄭委員正鈐：地面型的呢？"],["李署長君禮：針對地面型的，我們是要求它在符合建築物的管制規定以外，還要依災防法提出災防搶救計畫。"],["鄭委員正鈐：有沒有具體的標準？耐風要到幾級才可以？"],["李署長君禮：目前耐風強度是依照地域不同，通常是14級到15級、16級，但是地面型的沒有規定要到17級，屋頂型的則強制規範。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，理解。因為這次丹娜絲颱風來襲，很多光電設施都出狀況，所以後續對於光電板的維護和管理問題，我們非常非常擔心。我在這邊要再請教一個問題，就是這次丹娜絲颱風的時候，有沒有對離岸風電的風機造成影響？"],["李署長君禮：完全沒有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：完全沒有影響？"],["李署長君禮：對，而且發電量很好，因為有風。"],["鄭委員正鈐：颱風來時還持續發電？"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我要特別再講一件事情，離岸風電從三之三期之後，我們對國產化就沒有要求，針對水下基樁的部分，目前怎麼樣去維護它的安全，讓它不會被侵蝕？是用「犧牲陽極」的方式還是用什麼樣子的方式？"],["李署長君禮：目前有很多，犧牲陽極是其中一個方法，但是目前離岸風電的水下基樁和它的設計都要通過國際檢驗才可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，現在除了犧牲陽極，還有什麼其他的方式？署長可不可以做個說明？"],["李署長君禮：有陽極防蝕，也有陰極防蝕，除此之外，還有透過一些表面防蝕的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這些防蝕方式是不是會造成鋁離子的釋出？"],["李署長君禮：這個我們都有做監測。"],["鄭委員正鈐：有長期在監測嗎？"],["李署長君禮：就是有要求離岸風電業者必須去做監測，而且要把監測結果公告在他們公司的網站上。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，針對這個部分，請署長再給我更詳細的資料，因為我們看到歐洲的情況是，一個水下基樁25年內大概會釋放出10噸的鋁，你知道嗎？非常非常驚人！接下來預計我們的離岸風電大概總共會有幾支？"],["李署長君禮：目前已經完工運轉的有四百四十幾座。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來要持續開放的呢？"],["李署長君禮：就如剛剛講的，我們有3.1、3.2，未來正在規劃3.3，當然，未來的情形可能要看開標之後，廠商得標的狀況。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為本席對水下基礎的防蝕特別關注，你剛剛提到要業者自己監控，然後在他們公司的網站上公告，這部分我們可能需要更進一步的要求，詳細規定請你們之後再到本席辦公室來做個說明。"],["李署長君禮：好，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對丹娜絲颱風，我想請教一下內政部董政次，整個災防法的主管單位是內政部嘛？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在丹娜絲颱風之後，我們看到幾個問題，第一是當民眾提供救災物資時，和地方政府的需求之間沒有一個非常清楚的平臺，這個狀態在7月份發生丹娜絲颱風的時候我們已經看到了，9月份花蓮光復這邊又碰到更嚴重的情況，針對這個部分，內政部針對整個救災資訊平臺的需求和供給是不是可以做一個長期的建置？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，在整個災害發生的當下，是由中央災害指揮中心來指揮，災害發生之後，相關的救災和重建是由中央災害指揮中心和地方的前進指揮所在指揮。根據權責的狀況，基本上所有救災行為第一時間是地方政府必須負起相關的責任，中央只能扮演相關的協助角色，這是災防法和地方制度法明確規範的，也就是說，地方政府必須負起相關的責任，而不是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，其實因為我們看到很多狀態是中央和地方同時在推責，不過……"],["董次長建宏：而不是由中央全部來處理，所以相關物資進去的時候，必須由地方政府去進行……"],["鄭委員正鈐：不過災防法的主管機關是內政部，所以我們希望你們這邊能夠建置一個固定的平臺，讓志工的投入跟各方面的狀態不會出現太多的亂象。"],["董次長建宏：對，跟委員報告，整個花蓮的救災狀況是在前進指揮所設立之後，東部辦公室也受行政院指示，立即成立相關的物資協調中心，進行所有物資的調度，在季政委進駐前進指揮所之後，也立刻發揮相關的指揮……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，就是因為季政委進場，所以才開始穩定下來。"],["董次長建宏：對，所有的物資都……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是在季政委進駐之前是非常混亂的……"],["董次長建宏：對，我要跟委員報告的是什麼？第一時間是地方政府必須要作業的事情……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們才說內政部既然是災防法的主管單位，我們希望能夠把這樣子的平臺先建置起來，而且不是針對特定的使用，而是變成一個長期性的狀態，如果發生災情的時候，地方政府可以透過這個平臺跟外界籌集資源，包括很多NGO單位、民間單位，他們如果有資源要提供的時候，也可以透過這樣的平臺，我們希望內政部去研究一下這部分是不是能夠把它建立起來，否則以7月份和9月份這兩次來說，我們看到的都是民間走在政府前面，你們先把這個平臺做起來好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝委員指教，我還是要跟委員做一個說明，內政部應該負責的是屬於在中央災害防救中心相關的應變與指揮，地方政府必須負起在第一線相關的權責，所以相關的物資平臺就是地方政府必須……"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在要做的不只是針對這種狀態，我指的是一個溝通的平臺……"],["董次長建宏：其實地方政府平常就有一個互助的平臺了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：建立一個溝通的平臺對你們來說有這麼困難嗎？你們主管單位建立這樣的平臺都這麼困難嗎？"],["董次長建宏：不是，跟委員報告……"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這裡沒有要推責任，我並沒有說這個責任是地方要去承擔還是中央要去承擔，我只是覺得把一個中央和地方共同的救災平臺建立起來有這麼困難嗎？"],["董次長建宏：這個我們會回去研究，但是要跟委員報告，相關物資的運作，其實地方政府本來就有地方相關物資的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：在委員會這邊，我們很希望是討論怎麼樣解決問題，而不是要怎麼樣藉由任何的機會再去推責任好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，我們會回去做完整的研究。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員的質詢。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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完全起碼我們就是已經保障了星光人獸的所有保護的一個權利這個過去合併案已經有很多很多已經有幾十年就是應該金融機構合併法從八到九年通過以後一直都是這樣"},{"start":146.624,"end":159.455,"text":"那到目前為止因為昨天李士川副市長他開了一個記者會他說今天就會終止跟星光人壽的一個合併"},{"start":162.617,"end":178.422,"text":"那個合併同意那個解決這個狀況那如果就是說他們今天透過這樣的一個公開的一個程序的話那你認為台北市政府可以這樣的一個認定嗎站在金管會的立場上"},{"start":179.059,"end":196.956,"text":"我想剛才有委員詢問到我也是看這個新聞看到他們開了記者會他不是開了記者會說今天會發文給星光人獸提議怎麼樣來進行合議解約我想這是我剛才說過這個問題是他們跟星光人獸之間的"},{"start":198.417,"end":223.056,"text":"這個地上權的合約的爭議他們就按照合約上去解決這部分我想大概就是這個那金管會這邊所在意的就是說星光他針對T17 T18是一個不動產的投資案我們就按照我們不動產的相關規範來管理這件事情有沒有慢如果就是地上權的這個開花那星光人壽有沒有慢了那金管會有沒有失職"},{"start":224.011,"end":252.663,"text":"其實我剛才跟委員報告就是說我們的辦法裡面規定因為它的地上權就是我們是按照明確以樹地來做管理就是一塊土地來做管理那土地的開發我們因為保險法已經明確講就是說所有的不動產必須要及時利用且有收益但是對於既有的不動產比如說商辦或是大樓這些應該立刻要產生收益我們有一定的規定比如說一定期間之內你就必須要有收益否則的話我們會處罰或限期叫他改善"},{"start":253.323,"end":276.372,"text":"土地的部分是五年的時間我剛才有看到了你特別的這個回答其他的委員有特別講了很清楚就是說他還要透過都審所以他的計算方式並不是說合約開始簽訂了以後的五年是他透過了都審通過了以後的第一年開始這樣子算就是都審的時間不算那其他就是我們的五年"},{"start":277.392,"end":304.432,"text":"就是按照我們所謂的即時利用且有所謂對土地的管理的部分其實主委我們比較擔心的就是說新光人壽的一個公司的權益如果在沒有受損然後保護的權益也是被保存下來的時候那新壽是不是有背信的這一個問題新壽有沒有背信的問題我想這個可能是我在這裡要拜託就是我們金管會要密切的去注意這樣的一個問題"},{"start":305.362,"end":321.781,"text":"是當然比如說我剛才講我們在意的是公司比如說公司治理的程序是否符合我們內供內機相關公司治理的規範以及不動產投資是不是符合我們相關的內容那至於說他們契約上面的爭議其實很多人就把這兩個混在一起其實這兩個是"},{"start":324.763,"end":341.05,"text":"不只金管會可以管我想財政部還有經濟部還有其他跨部會其實都可以一起來參與中央都可以來參與監督也來協助這個案子當然有助於產業發展爭取外資投資這都是一致的"},{"start":342.438,"end":367.823,"text":"主委接著金融開放來跟你探討亞洲金融那個管理中心就是高雄的金融專區我們知道在7月1日正式的一個啟動那這個啟動的過程當中其實金融的開放我想不是只有市場的一個議題也是國土均衡的一個策略上的一個工具所以說擺在高雄其實上一次我有跟你請教過是不是"},{"start":368.563,"end":396.369,"text":"這一個專區其實在每一個縣市都有機會就是變成一個金融專區是不是這樣子的一個就是我們是不是以這樣子的一個鋪陳呢是的 我想我在很多地方講過就是我們是參考日本的金融專區的設立像日本就四個城市他們這樣當然我們剛才講的主要是比如說我們各個地方政府願意提供什麼樣的誘因來吸引或是發展它的特色我們在金管業這邊一定全力來支持"},{"start":396.914,"end":425.711,"text":"是 所以就是說不是只有一個高雄專區它也有機會變成一個台南的專區那金管會都會全力的一個支持好 那從高雄專區的一個吸引力是不是比照新加坡那是不是比照新加坡我想法治的一個穩定這個應該是沒有問題好 稅務的一個優惠那如果是新加坡的稅務的優惠的話它其實如果我們看那個資料"},{"start":426.551,"end":431.616,"text":"如果你有投資就是超過台幣267億你就可以免稅優惠稅到5%到10%那這一個我們高雄專區有沒有這樣子的一個稅務的優惠呢"},{"start":443.959,"end":471.078,"text":"我們的稅是屬於中央的權限就是稅法上面的規定地方的話我們就看像比如說以日本為例他們有些地方有課地方稅他們地方就可以決定來做這件事情我想這個稅的部分我們相較於比如新加坡確實在這一塊我們的是比較沒有那麼的突出像新加坡很明顯他比如說針對你外國投資的部分他對他的企業的所得稅"},{"start":472.399,"end":499.611,"text":"那還有就是比如說他們主委沒有那麼突出是表示沒有是不是那如果你沒有辦法就是優惠在這個稅率上優惠的話你怎麼吸引這個就是比較多的一個這個產業願意把錢放在這個專區裡頭呢當然是我想這是一個稅的話我在很多地方也說過稅當然是一個很好的武器或者很好的工具但是我們也看到如果說一定要有稅才能做的話我們"},{"start":500.771,"end":522.038,"text":"在台湾要争取税是比较那金管会有没有试着跟就是说财政部还是说高雄市政府去做这个税的一个沟通这个绝对是我们沟通的重点优惠的一个沟通有没有当然有有 还是行不通当然各个部会在做这些考虑的时候他可以不可以让一些出来你如果不让的话事实上我们怎么就是说"},{"start":523.118,"end":544.9,"text":"追求更多的一個投資者願意把錢換到這一個專區裡頭來你一定要有一個誘因這個誘因應該是我們大家要努力的是…我想委員講得我非常的贊成第一個當然比如說我們也看世界上很多的金融中心它並沒有稅 它也做得很好我們也不能說沒有稅我們就不做"},{"start":545.701,"end":560.548,"text":"像比如說紐約倫敦他們也沒有稅但是他一樣是很多的他有他的條件他有他的條件因為他整個投資的一個這個集中就在那個地方那我們現在要新創我們必須要有更多的一個誘因"},{"start":561.568,"end":589.282,"text":"那譬如說你的高資產客戶要跟那個國際有一個競爭力你就是要把這一個他的一個行政程序你要把它縮短變成是一戶式的你不能讓他在這個整個開戶整個就是說在使用上他就變非常的一個冗長那顯然稅務的優惠是沒有啦對 稅務優惠我們是比較相對的比較缺乏但是比如說法制穩定彈性兼領我們可以來努力對不對這部分"},{"start":590.823,"end":615.323,"text":"特別是在金融監理的我覺得法制跟監理的彈性這個對你來講都不是問題都是稅務的優惠這一段我想我們應該要再更努力所以我也期待有所突破因為這部分確實假設我們要長遠能夠具有持續性的進展跟優勢我想稅如果有稅的幫忙當然是一個非常正面的因素"},{"start":616.064,"end":634.737,"text":"那我想就是再有一個議題跨境的ETF這一個在東京掛牌在這個第三季的一個掛牌到目前為止我們看起來成績是不怎麼樣那不怎麼樣我不知道主委你有沒有去看到這一個問題"},{"start":636.035,"end":659.402,"text":"我想今天剛好交一首董事長這邊他可以跟委員快速的報告一下現在的狀況董事長是不是快速的報告一下跟委員報告那事實上我們掛了兩隻在東政所這兩隻跨進了ETF在一個月 九月到現在一個月內一隻成長它的AUM它的那個Found Size成長五倍另外一隻成長三倍也就在一個月內"},{"start":660.222,"end":670.458,"text":"他真的成長一個五倍跟一個三倍所以而且東正所也為了我們這兩支呢他也做了很多網路的宣傳包括連結或這樣所以他們短時間內東正所也對我們非常的支持"},{"start":674.244,"end":702.66,"text":"我想台灣的科技台灣的科技是一個很亮眼的一個指標那問題就是說這一個管理上是不是在資產管理上是不是有辦法透明這個是應該是吸引投資者非常重要的一個原因那我是要那個拜託大家就是說我們希望就是這個跨境跨境那個ETF我們尤其是在日本這個我們應該是因為在地緣上那個我們可以做得更好"},{"start":703.761,"end":711.675,"text":"給大家加油是 這也是我們努力的方向好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝賴委員接下來我們請林思明召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時59分）謝謝主席，請金管會主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：主委早安。資本市場的引擎及國家競爭力的象徵，來自於經濟，我們國家的經濟，其實很明確的，表現出來就是國家的競爭力。針對最新的這個議題，就是新光人壽T17跟T18地上權案，金管會有沒有做到保護權益跟監管的責任？剛才我聽到主委跟賴士葆委員對談的過程當中也提到相同議題，你有特別提醒到是工具不足、無法可管……"],["彭主任委員金隆：噢！也不是，因為我們有不同的職掌。"],["賴委員惠員：有不同的職掌，並不是只有金管會一個單位……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們還有很多其他單位。"],["賴委員惠員：必須是跨部會的監管，共同來解決這個問題。「新新併」是經過金管會核定的併購案，我們現在一樣回到賴士葆委員詢問的議題，就是合併後的存續公司，到底目前法律的主體是誰？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為他們大概在7月下旬就已經把合併的申請書送到保險局，現在正在補件審查中，按照他們7月送過來的計畫書，剛剛我也報告過了，存續公司是台新人壽，消滅公司是新光人壽，合併以後更名為新光人壽。"],["賴委員惠員：可是之前的新光人壽已經不存在了，它已經不是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：法律上面，它在合併的時候是被指定為消滅公司，但實際上它所有實體都還是在未來這合併的實體裡面。"],["賴委員惠員：好，請教主委，新光人壽保戶的所有保障是不是還存在？"],["彭主任委員金隆：完全不改變，這是我們金融機構合併法裡非常清楚明定的。"],["賴委員惠員：是完全不改變？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，完全。"],["賴委員惠員：起碼我們已經保障了新光人壽所有保戶的權益。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，過去合併案已經有很多很多，也已經有幾十年，金融機構合併法從89年通過以後，一直都是這樣。"],["賴委員惠員：昨天李四川副市長開了一個記者會，希望跟新光人壽共同合意終止契約，如果他們今天透過這樣公開的程序，站在金管會立場上，你認為臺北市政府可以做這樣的認定嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛才也有委員詢問這個問題，其實我也是在新聞上看到臺北市政府開了記者會，說今天會發文給新光人壽提議如何進行合意解約，我剛才也有說過，這個問題是他們跟新光人壽之間地上權的合約爭議，他們就按照合約去解決，這部分我想大概就是這樣。金管會這邊所在意的，就是新光T17、T18是一個不動產投資案，我們就按照不動產的相關規範來管理這件事情。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有慢呢？如果是地上權的開發，那新光人壽有沒有慢呢？金管會有沒有失職？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我剛才也跟委員報告過，就是我們的辦法裡規定，因為這是地上權，我們就明確以素地來管理，就是以一塊土地來做管理。而土地的開發，保險法已經明確規定，所有不動產必須要即時利用且有收益，但是對於既有的不動產，比如商辦或大樓這些應該立刻產生收益的，我們有一定的規定，比如一定期間之內就必須要有收益，否則我們會處罰或限期要求改善，土地的部分是5年……"],["賴委員惠員：我剛才有聽到你回答其他委員的說明，特別清楚提到還要透過都審，所以它的計算方式並不是合約開始簽訂以後的5年，而是透過都審，從通過以後開始算第一年……"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是都審的時間不算，其他就是我們規定的5年，按照所謂的即時利用且有收益，對土地的管理部分是這樣。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，其實我們比較擔心的是，新光人壽的公司權益沒有受損，然後保戶的權益也是被保障的情況下，新壽是不是有背信的問題？在這裡我要拜託金管會密切注意新壽有沒有背信的這樣的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我剛才也有講，我們在意的是公司治理的程序是否符合我們內控、內稽等公司治理的相關規範，以及不動產投資是不是符合我們相關的內容。至於他們契約上面的爭議，其實很多人就把這兩個混在一起，其實兩個是不一樣，包括那個期限也是不一樣。"],["賴委員惠員：所以不只金管會可以管，我想財政部、經濟部還有其他機關其實都可以跨部會一起來參與，中央都可以來參與監督，也來協助這個案子。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，當然有助於產業發展、爭取外資投資，這個都是一致的。"],["賴委員惠員：好。主委，接著是關於金融開放，我來跟你探討亞洲金融管理中心，也就是高雄的金融專區。我們知道已經在7月1日正式啟動，在這個啟動的過程當中，我想其實金融的開放不是只有市場的議題，也是國土均衡策略上的一個工具，所以說擺在高雄。其實上一次我有跟你請教過是不是在每一個縣市都有機會有這樣的專區，就是變成一個金融專區，我們是不是有這樣子的鋪陳？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我想我在很多地方講過，我們是參考日本金融專區的設立，像日本他們就是有4個城市，當然，我們剛才也講了，主要是看各個地方政府願意提供什麼樣的誘因來吸引或是發展它的特色，我們金管會這邊一定全力來支持。"],["賴委員惠員：是，所以說不是只有一個高雄專區，也有機會變成一個臺南的專區，那金管會都會全力的支持。","好，關於高雄專區的吸引力是不是比照新加坡，我想法制的穩定這個部分應該是沒有問題。其次是稅務的優惠，如果是新加坡的稅務優惠，其實我們看相關資料，如果你有投資超過臺幣267億，你就可以有免稅優惠5%到10%，那我們高雄專區有沒有這樣子的稅務優惠呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的稅是屬於中央的權限，就是稅法上面的規定，那地方的話，以日本為例，他們有些地方有課地方稅，那地方就可以決定來做這件事情。我想關於稅的部分，我們相較於新加坡，確實在這一塊我們是比較沒有那麼的突出，像新加坡很明顯，比如說，針對外國投資的部分，他們對企業的所得稅，還有比如說……"],["賴委員惠員：主委，你說沒有那麼突出是不是表示沒有？如果你沒有辦法在這個稅率上有優惠的話，你怎麼吸引比較多的產業願意把錢放在這個專區裡頭呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於稅的部分，我在很多地方也說過，稅當然是一個很好的武器、很好的工具，但是我們也看到，如果說一定要有稅才能做的話，我們在臺灣要爭取稅是比較……"],["賴委員惠員：那金管會有沒有試著跟財政部還是高雄市政府去做稅務優惠方面的溝通呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個絕對是我們溝通的重點。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然有。"],["賴委員惠員：有溝通可是還是行不通？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然各個部會在做這些考慮的時候，我們都會……"],["賴委員惠員：可不可以讓一些出來？你如果不讓的話，我們怎麼追求讓更多的投資者願意把錢放到這個專區裡頭來？，你一定要有一個誘因，這個誘因應該是我們大家要努力的嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，對於委員所講的，我非常的贊成，第一個，我們也看到世界上很多的金融中心並沒有稅務優惠，但是它也做得很好，我們也不能因為它沒有稅務優惠，所以我們就不做，比如說紐約、倫敦沒有稅務優惠，但是它有它的條件，會讓很多……"],["賴委員惠員：它有它的條件嘛！因為它整個投資就集中就在那個地方，那我們現在要新創，我們必須要有更多的誘因嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["賴委員惠員：譬如說，你對高資產客戶要跟國際有競爭力，你就是要把行政程序縮短，變成是一站式，你不能在整個開戶、在使用上非常的冗長，那顯然稅務的優惠是沒有啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，在稅務優惠方面我們是相對比較缺乏，但是關於法制穩定、彈性監理，我們可以來努力，對不對？特別是在金融監理的……"],["賴委員惠員：我覺得法制的穩定跟監理的彈性對你來講都不是問題，倒是稅務的優惠這一段，我想我們應該要再更努力。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我也期待有所突破，因為這部分確實我們希望能夠長遠且具有持續性的進展跟優勢，我想如果有稅的幫忙，當然是一個非常非常正面的因素。"],["賴委員惠員：好，那我想再談一個議題，就是臺日跨境ETF於第3季在東京交易所掛牌，到目前為止，我們看起來成績不怎麼樣，我不知道主委你有沒有看到這一個問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：今天剛好交易所董事長在這邊，他可以跟委員快速的報告現在的狀況。"],["賴委員惠員：董事長，你是不是快速的報告一下？"],["林董事長修銘：跟委員報告，事實上，我們在東證所掛了這兩支跨境的ETF，從9月到現在的一個月內，其中一支的AUM、fund size在一個月內成長了5倍，另外一支成長了3倍。而且東證所為了我們這兩支ETF也做了很多網路的宣傳，包括連結，所以在短時間內東證所也對我們非常的支持，以上。"],["賴委員惠員：我想臺灣的科技是一個很亮眼的指標，問題就是在資產管理上是不是有辦法透明，這個應該是吸引投資者非常重要的一個原因。我是要拜託大家，就是對於跨境的ETF，尤其是我們跟日本有地緣上的關係，所以應該可以做得更好，我給大家加油，加油！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這也是我們努力的方向。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","接下來我們請林思銘召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc7061cbac3b4dbb28eadaba87319979828b7b742ce67879007bd1442b9f89c7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:41:46 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謝謝 我想請石部長來 請部長陳院長"},{"start":9.639,"end":37.401,"text":"部長好 部長您是親子友善兒少保護法還有促進我們國家生育率的大家長但是您知道從9月22號開始高鐵全面上路 寧靜車廂的措施之後啊現在網路上有帶著家長的帶著小孩 家長帶著小孩還有反對這些小孩發出聲音的人已經在網路上大戰 這件事情您知道嗎"},{"start":39.097,"end":66.648,"text":"我最近有聽說啦我坐高鐵的時候也有看到他現在都有個牌子等一下我會提供您一些截圖我先舉一些國外的案例國外呢他們是比如說為了促進生育率一家四口一家五口去旅行是坐國籍的航空或者是火車或者是他們一家去遊樂園是給予很多折扣的但是反觀我們台灣"},{"start":67.808,"end":88.46,"text":"我是很希望你可以拿出魄力來是不是可以跟交通部高鐵或者是國籍的航空等等去談如何可以兼顧親子友善兼顧生育率然後又不至於讓現在網路上吵成一團那您也需要出來主持空道啦我舉幾個案例讓您聽聽看"},{"start":91.221,"end":107.766,"text":"比如說現在呢高鐵他們會說如果說有發現這個小朋友可能有發出一些聲音干擾到其他的乘客他們會去協助安撫並且給予乖乖你覺得你贊成這樣子的做法嗎"},{"start":110.373,"end":134.478,"text":"這個不夠專業的做法你說為什麼這個應該要先了解協助了解這個孩子會哭鬧因為他的表達比較小的孩子他的表達不容易所以常常以哭鬧的方式來表達所以應該先去了解這個孩子真正會哭鬧的原因什麼來解決問題不是隨便給一個零食"},{"start":135.518,"end":152.84,"text":"是 高鐵的同仁如果是給予一些安撫那再加上給予餅乾等等請問你覺得這一組父母加上小孩會不會有可能被標籤化反而讓這個車廂其他乘客的人發現就是這些人在吵所以監務人員過來了"},{"start":155.354,"end":173.395,"text":"会不会被标签化有这个可能性但是如果有孩子不断的哭闹我们还是应该主动的去关心我想这个那我再举第二个例子这个都是实际发生的案例有一个带大宝跟二宝的妈妈她因为被举牌"},{"start":174.156,"end":200.284,"text":"要求降低音量所以勸導說你可以帶寶寶到車廂跟車廂中間的走道去安撫這件事情我本人也做過我有三個那三個都這樣子做過結果呢他只能把大寶放在座位上帶著二寶到車廂中間去安撫我想問他讓大寶單獨留在車廂被迫單獨留在車廂是不是違反了兒少保護法"},{"start":201.124,"end":227.842,"text":"是不是这样的处理方式并不恰当那您有什么建议吗我还是那个我们整个车厢这个维持这个车厢的安宁对于多数的乘客是有好处这个我们不反对但是对于这个按照我们这个儿少福利法的规定在交通方面还是要对亲子友善好"},{"start":228.903,"end":250.636,"text":"這就是我一再強調的我們跟其他國家差很多其他國家他也許會在一些觀光的網站上去特別註明哪些餐廳親子友善推薦大家去那他們的車廂有些國家是採取部分車廂寧靜但其他車廂他不會特別標註親子友善可是他也不會那麼在意營量"},{"start":252.738,"end":265.593,"text":"請問你大概在什麼時間內可以去找到高鐵或是交通部做這樣子的溝通可以給大家滿多家長在關心這個議題請問你大概多久以內可以去做這個協調"},{"start":267.314,"end":287.099,"text":"我們在9月2號其實已經發函去了解了請這個交通部去督導這個高鐵公司因為高鐵公司的這個主管機關是交通部所以我們也請了交通部去督導那麼我們會進一步去追蹤這個最後結果大概多久以內"},{"start":287.939,"end":301.887,"text":"因為現在每天他們都在網路上炒翻天這個您知道嗎一個月內嗎一個月內我希望你跟交通部可以共擬出一個稍微彈性的做法不要再引起兩方之間的互相仇視好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":305.25,"end":327.484,"text":"好下一個是您接受了採訪我知道你講了很多很多的關於醫療方面的改革但我今天稍微講兩點就好了有一點是您提到在醫療飽和區也就是蛋黃區健保診所太多的地方就不給開了請自行前往醫療資源不足的地方開立診所"},{"start":327.964,"end":351.692,"text":"好現在有許多醫師可能比較多是新出來的醫師他會說所以你是請我們回家吃自己嗎因為在這個蛋黃區都會區為什麼會這樣做我跟你講他們的心聲很多人講啊他說我要選擇在哪邊職業當然除了薪資以外我還要考慮我配偶的工作對吧我還要考慮小孩就學的問題"},{"start":352.552,"end":378.003,"text":"如果他有長輩要就近照顧還有長輩要照顧那這些地方變成蛋黃區是因為很多原因造成的而不是說他特意去把這些地方列為他的首選所以我想要問你可不可以變更你的做法你要不要去針對醫療資源不足的地方給予更多的誘因而讓各種不同世代的醫師都願意去那個地方嘛"},{"start":379.572,"end":394.051,"text":"這個跟委員說明按照我們的醫師法的規定或醫療法的規定醫師當然有他的職業自由他可以在任何一個地方只要他取得了合格的醫師執照他都可以開業"},{"start":395.353,"end":414.552,"text":"但是健保有他的特約規定那麼針對醫療資源應該要納入他健保特約的時候的考量因為健保的資源是有限的所以有一些不是健保特約的診所但是如果是要健保特約的診所健保必須考慮到他所"},{"start":415.453,"end":444.572,"text":"提供服務的可進性跟資源的平衡性就好像我們現在在總額之下在分配各個縣市或者是各個區域的總額也是有他的分配的考量我剛剛已經跟你講得很清楚了他會選擇這個地方他當然也想兼顧你所謂的醫療資源等等的但他還有其他考慮的面向嘛那你現在的意思就是說這一區已經很多人來了你就不要再來了"},{"start":445.593,"end":464.333,"text":"那是先到先贏的概念所以在這個制度之下我們會有折約特優的概念而不是所有的人就是你要特約就一直特約一直特約我們在醫學生的部分是有管制的就是總人數這個不是一個完全自由的市場所以在"},{"start":465.234,"end":486.38,"text":"提供服務的時候也應該要有所邏輯而不是說就完全是放任性的那這樣前面加強管制出口端進口端供應端是管制的結果到後來執行業務的時候卻自由的放任那這樣反而造成另外一種不公"},{"start":487.253,"end":513.576,"text":"我是給你一個建議請部長考量一下是不是願意到醫療資源不足的地方你給予更多的誘因而不是去限制他們不准去已經飽和的地方這個是大家現在很反彈的當然跟委員說明要解決這個醫療資源不足地區還有很多的方式啦這個也不是單單的一個不過這個是希望能夠讓醫療資源的分佈也能夠更平衡"},{"start":515.904,"end":533.464,"text":"讓這個多少人口多少醫師因為我們所有的這個醫學生也是按照這樣在管制所以要按照當地多少人口需要多少醫師來特約這個才是符合我們健保的精神這邊有兩件事情我希望一個月看可不可以給予可行性評估"},{"start":534.165,"end":559.847,"text":"第二件事情也是很多人在意的就是說現在在醫院職業的醫師每一筆錢他都必須要繳稅勞基法是用加班費免稅可是你也知道非常多主治醫師以上層級的並不是用勞基法所以工時比人家長很多可是沒有免稅的比例原則那亞東醫院院長最近就有出來講了很長一段的話大概跟你講"},{"start":560.808,"end":587.318,"text":"他說最具醫療韌性也就是最具戰時韌性的這群人反而是近年來流失最快的其中包括武大科包括急重症包括急診等等的那這些人才困難的他就是在夜間假日值班最多的那除了提高他的健保點值以外因為提高以後他工作很辛苦但在最後又繳稅了"},{"start":588.678,"end":599.141,"text":"所以他必須要雙重雙軌之下你有辦法留住這些人第一個就是額外津貼第二個就是他的夜間他的假日值班他的這些業務應該要免稅請問以上兩點就是關於"},{"start":605.803,"end":621.193,"text":"責量能特約還有這個免稅跟津貼雙軌制來拯救這些人才流失最多的這顆你有沒有辦法一個月內給予可行性評估因為你今年已經編了過兆的健保預算了"},{"start":623.986,"end":647.721,"text":"這個醫師的這個稅負公平性的問題我之前就已經注意到這個事情那因為目前在醫院工作者裡面只有醫師還沒有納入勞基法那其餘都是已經適用勞基法而適用勞基法人員裡面呢他有一個加班費是適用所得稅法免稅規定那但是因為勞基法有他的加班時數的上限"},{"start":648.001,"end":676.277,"text":"所以在那个额度内其实是已经符合免税目前就已经在执行了倒是因为医师他没有适用这个劳基法的关系再加上医疗的特性跟这个病人的需要所以他的加班时间往往是高于这个劳基法所规定的这个加班的上限所以在这个现实的情形之下我们一直在努力的在沟通希望扩大你要跟谁沟通劳动部财政部你要"},{"start":678.539,"end":691.956,"text":"這個稅負的主管機關是財政部所以你希望往院長講的這個方向前進就是要讓這個叫做稅負公平他一樣是因為延長工作時間那麼所得到的這些收入"},{"start":692.797,"end":708.824,"text":"就是所謂的加班費所以一個月內這兩點我們等一下送個書面可不可以請你給我們可行性的評估這個書面是沒有問題的那只是說在推動的過程當中也需要委員來給我們協助因為這個還有跟財政部之間的溝通"},{"start":709.144,"end":732.006,"text":"好第三個我們要問的問題是最近我們有一個好運3方案當然右邊這邊我就先不多說了右邊大家有知道說原來10萬塊講得很好聽結果不同級別的保險他只是去補差額所以如果是比如說勞保的他幾乎差額只有一點點他並不是這麼的有感但"},{"start":732.947,"end":753.462,"text":"考量問到許多專家他們都覺得每個月的津貼才是真正可以促進生育率的方式而不是這種單次一次性的好那之前陳時中政委他在其他的媒體採訪裡面他自己都講喔他說一個月他覺得要拿到三萬塊才算是有感的補貼才願意"},{"start":755.563,"end":782.536,"text":"這個促進生育啊等等的當我們去試算每一個縣市就算是最好最好的狀況大概都沒有到兩萬那我們看一下這個表看一下這個表現在是零到六歲的嬰幼兒每月主要的開銷包括尿布啊副食品或是你自己在家帶托育等等如果你是自己帶或是準公共比較難抽到的比較偏向兩萬但如果是送到托育可能會偏向四萬塊好"},{"start":783.777,"end":804.25,"text":"但是你現在的育嬰育兒津貼已經非常久沒有調整了第一名子女每個月五千第二名每個月六千第三名每個月七千你有沒有考慮把它調高主席快結束來響應陳時中政委所說的家總至少要折合三萬塊民眾才會有感"},{"start":806.076,"end":825.048,"text":"跟委員說明 當然這一個擴大生育補助方案就是讓大家的這個補助讓他拉齊不會因為你的身份不同得到的最後的那個補助不同所以把公保 勞保 國保等等的保險甚至都沒有保的也都把它拉在一起"},{"start":826.289,"end":854.596,"text":"第一步而已那自己為了減輕年輕這個父母對於這個育兒上的壓力當然有育兒津貼剛剛您提到的這樣但是我們也另外有這個準托育跟這個公托跟準公托的補助那個我記得如果是準公托的話也到一萬三到一萬五就是看你的胎次會逐步的增加我知道但是我剛就有講有些人他是並沒有用到托育的嘛"},{"start":856.497,"end":882.575,"text":"这个十万块我们才发现说原来很多人是没有劳保的这个下去我们才发现为什么我们要去补对对所以他不一定会有用到托育因为托育你就只能选一个嘛你的育儿津贴跟托育他就只能选择一个育儿津贴跟托育补助所以我讲的是这个族群的人你有没有办法协助他您说的是完全没有育儿津贴对"},{"start":883.577,"end":896.007,"text":"完全沒有參加任何保險沒有我講的是他可能沒有用到托育的那就是育兒津貼嘛對一個是托育補助一個是育兒津貼這二則一是您的意思是說"},{"start":897.779,"end":921.828,"text":"沒有托育的就是育兒津貼的部分就是他必須申請育兒津貼的這部分你有沒有考慮再把它往上提育兒津貼的部分再增加的意思我們來研究看看在政府的財政的能力下因為現在因為這個財法法的關係中央的統籌分配款也受到影響所以我們再來評估看看那我們再跟你做報告 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時41分）主席謝謝，我想請石部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["石部長崇良：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。部長，您是親子友善、兒少保護法還有促進我們國家生育率的大家長，但是您知道從9月22號開始，高鐵全面上路寧靜車廂的措施之後，現在網路上有帶著小孩的家長，還有反對小孩發出聲音的人，已經在網路上大戰，這件事情您知道嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我最近有聽說，我坐高鐵的時候也有看到現在都有個寧靜車廂的牌子。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，等一下我會提供您一些截圖，我先舉一些國外的案例。"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：國外呢，他們是比如說為了促進生育率，一家四口、一家五口去旅行，搭乘國籍航空或是火車，或者是他們一家去遊樂園，業者是給予很多折扣的，但是反觀我們臺灣，我很希望你可以拿出魄力來，是不是可以跟交通部所轄高鐵或是國籍航空等等業者去談，如何可以兼顧親子友善、兼顧生育率，然後又不至於讓現在網路上吵成一團，那您也需要出來主持公道，我舉幾個案例讓您聽聽看。"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：比如現在高鐵如果發現小朋友可能有發出一些聲音干擾到其他的乘客，他們會去協助安撫，並且給予「乖乖」，你覺得你贊成這樣子的做法嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這是不夠專業的做法。"],["陳委員菁徽：你說，為什麼？"],["石部長崇良：應該要先協助了解孩子哭鬧的原因，因為比較小的孩子，他要表達不容易，所以常常以哭鬧的方式來表達，所以應該先去了解這個孩子會哭鬧的真正原因是什麼再來解決問題，而不是隨便給一個零食，這個不是很好的……"],["陳委員菁徽：好。那高鐵的同仁如果給予一些安撫，再加上給予餅乾等等，請問你覺得這一組父母加上小孩，會不會有可能被標籤化，反而讓這個車廂其他乘客的人發現，就是這些人在吵，所以站務人員過來了。會不會？會不會被標籤化？"],["石部長崇良：有這個可能性，但是如果有孩子不斷地哭鬧，我們還是應該主動地去關心，我想這個站務人員……"],["陳委員菁徽：那我再舉第二個例子，這個都是實際發生的案例。有一個帶大寶跟二寶的媽媽，他因為被舉牌要求降低音量，所以被勸導說，你可以帶寶寶到車廂跟車廂中間的走道去安撫。這件事情我本人也做過，我有三個，三個都這樣子做過。結果他只能把大寶放在座位上，帶著二寶到車廂中間去安撫，我想問，他讓大寶單獨留在車廂，被迫單獨留在車廂，是不是違反了兒少保護法，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：這樣的處理方式並不恰當，不恰當。"],["陳委員菁徽：那您有什麼建議嗎？"],["石部長崇良：維持整個車廂的安寧，對於多數乘客有好處，這個我們不反對啦！但是按照我們兒少福利法的規定，在交通方面還是要對親子友善。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這就是我一再強調的，我們跟其他國家差很多。其他國家也許會在一些觀光網站上特別註明哪些餐廳親子友善，推薦大家去；然後他們的車廂，有些國家是採取部分車廂寧靜，但其他車廂不會特別標註親子友善，可是也不會那麼在意音量。請問，你大概在什麼時間內可以去找高鐵或是交通部做這方面的溝通，可以給大家，滿多家長在關心這個議題，請問你大概多久以內可以去做這個協調？"],["石部長崇良：我們在9月2號其實已經發函去了解，請交通部去督導高鐵公司，因為高鐵公司的主管機關是交通部，所以我們也請了交通部去督導，我們會進一步去追蹤最後結果是如何。"],["陳委員菁徽：大概多久以內？因為現在每天他們都在……"],["石部長崇良：大概一個月內。"],["陳委員菁徽：他們都在網路上吵翻天，這個您知道嗎？一個月內嗎？"],["石部長崇良：好，一個月內。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，一個月內我希望你跟交通部可以共擬出一個稍微彈性的作法，不要再引起兩方之間的互相仇視，好嗎？"],["石部長崇良：好的，好，沒問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。下一個是您接受了採訪，我知道你講了很多很多關於醫療方面的改革，但我今天稍微講兩點就好了。有一點是您提到在醫療飽和區，也就是蛋黃區，健保診所太多的地方就不給開了，請自行前往醫療資源不足的地方開立診所。好，現在有許多醫師，可能比較多是新出來的醫師，他會說：所以你是請我們回家吃自己嗎？因為為什麼會在蛋黃區、都會區開診所，我跟你講他們的心聲，很多人講：我要選擇在哪邊執業，當然除了薪資以外，我還要考慮我配偶的工作，對吧？我還要考慮小孩就學的問題；如果有長輩要就近照顧，還有長輩要照顧。這些地方變成蛋黃區是很多原因造成的，而不是他特意去把這些地方列為他的首選。所以我想要問，你可不可以變更你的做法，你要不要去針對醫療資源不足的地方給予更多的誘因，而讓各種不同世代的醫師都願意去那個地方？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，按照醫師法或醫療法的規定，醫師當然有他的執業自由，他可以在任何一個地方，只要他取得合格的醫師執照，他都可以開業。但是健保有它的特約規定、醫療資源應該要納入健保特約時候的考量，因為健保的資源是有限的，所以有一些不是健保特約的診所，但是如果是要跟健保簽訂特約的診所，健保必須考慮到它所提供服務的可近性跟資源的平衡性。就好像我們現在在總額之下在分配各個縣市或是各個區域的總額，也是有其分配的考量……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，我剛剛已經跟你講得很清楚了，他會選擇這個地方，他當然也想兼顧你所謂的醫療資源等等，但他還有其他考慮的面向嘛。你現在的意思就是說，這一區已經很多人來了，你就不要再來了，那是先到先贏的概念……"],["石部長崇良：所以在這個制度之下，我們會有擇優特約的概念，而不是所有的人你要特約就一直特約、一直特約。我們在醫學生的總人數部分是有管制的，這不是一個完全自由的市場，所以在提供服務的時候也應該要堅持相同的邏輯，而不是完全採放任性的。那這樣前面加強管制進口端，就是醫師的供應端是管制的，結果到後來執行業務的時候卻採取自由放任，那這樣反而造成另外一種不公。"],["陳委員菁徽：我是給你一個建議，請部長考量一下，是不是願意到醫療資源不足的地方，你給予更多的誘因，而不是去限制他們不准去已經飽和的地方，這個是大家現在很反彈的地方。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，要解決這個醫療資源不足地區還有很多的方式，不是單單的一個，不過這個是希望讓醫療資源的分布也能夠更平衡，多少人口多少醫師，因為我們所有的醫學生也是按照這樣在管制，所以要按照當地多少人口需要多少醫師來特約，這個才是符合我們整個健保的精神。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊有兩件事情，我希望一個月看可不可以給可行性評估。第二件事情也是很多人在意的，現在在醫院執業的醫師，每一筆錢他都必須要繳稅，勞基法適用加班費免稅，可是你也知道非常多主治醫師以上層級的並不適用勞基法，所以工時比人家長很多，可是沒有免稅的比例原則。亞東醫院的院長最近就有出來講了很長的一段話，我大概跟你講，他說最具醫療韌性，也就是最具戰時韌性的這群人，反而是近年來流失最快的，其中包括五大科，包括急重症，包括急診等等，這些人才困難的地方就是在夜間、假日值班最多，除了提高他的健保點值以外，因為提高以後他工作很辛苦，但在最後又繳稅了，所以必須要雙重、雙軌之下，才有辦法留住這些人，第一個就是額外津貼，第二個就是他的夜間、他的假日值班，他的這些業務應該要免稅。請問以上兩點，就是關於擇量能特約，還有免稅跟津貼雙軌制，來拯救人才流失最多的這些科，你有沒有辦法一個月內給予可行性評估？因為你今年已經編了過兆的健保預算了。"],["石部長崇良：關於醫師稅賦公平性的問題，我之前就已經注意到這個事情，因為目前在醫院工作者裡面，只有醫師還沒有納入勞基法，其餘都已經適用勞基法，而適用勞基法人員裡面有一個加班費是適用所得稅法免稅規定，但是因為勞基法有它加班時數的上限，所以在那個額度內，其實是已經符合免稅，目前就已經在執行了。倒是因為醫師沒有適用勞基法的關係，再加上醫療的特性跟病人的需要，所以他的加班時間往往是高於勞基法所規定的加班上限，所以在這個現實的情形之下，我們一直在努力的溝通，希望擴大……"],["陳委員菁徽：你要跟誰溝通？勞動部？你要……"],["石部長崇良：財政部，稅賦的主管機關是財政部。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你希望往院長講的這個方向前進？"],["石部長崇良：是，就是要讓稅賦公平，一樣是因為延長工作時間，他所得到的這些收入就是所謂的加班費。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以一個月內針對這兩點，我們等一下送個書面，可不可以請你給我們可行性的評估？"],["石部長崇良：書面是沒有問題，那只是說在推動的過程當中，也需要委員來給我們協助，因為這個還有跟財政部之間的溝通。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。第三個我們要問的問題是，最近我們有一個好孕三方案，當然右邊這邊我就先不多說了，右邊大家知道說，原來10萬塊講得很好聽，結果不同級別的保險，它只是去補差額，所以如果是勞保的，它幾乎差額只有一點點，並不是這麼的有感。但問到許多專家，他們都覺得每個月的津貼才是真正可以促進生育率的方式，而不是這種單次、一次性的。之前陳時中政委在其他的媒體採訪裡面，他自己都講，他說一個月他覺得要拿到3萬塊才算是有感的補貼，才願意促進生育等等，但我們去試算每一個縣市，就算是最好最好的狀況，大概都沒有到2萬。","那我們看一下這個表，現在0到6歲的嬰幼兒每月主要的開銷包括尿布、副食品或是你自己在家帶、托育等等，如果你是自己帶，或者是準公共，比較難抽到的，比較偏向2萬，但如果是送到托育，可能會偏向4萬塊，但是現在的育嬰育兒津貼已經非常久沒有調整了，第一名子女每個月5,000，第二名每個月6,000，第三名每個月7,000，你有沒有考慮把它調高？主席，快結束了。來響應陳時中政委所說的加總至少要折合3萬塊，民眾才會有感。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，當然這一個擴大生育補助方案，就是讓大家的補助拉齊，不會因為你的身分不同，最後得到的補助不同，所以把公保、勞保、國保等等的保險，甚至都沒有保的也都把它拉在一起，所以這個是第一步而已。至於為了減輕年輕父母對於育兒上的壓力，當然有剛剛您提到的育兒津貼，但是我們也另外有準托育、公托跟準公托的補助，我記得如果是準公托的話，也到1萬3,000到1萬5,000，就是看你的胎次會逐步的增加。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，但是我剛剛就有講，有些人他是並沒有用到托育的，這個10萬塊我們才發現說，原來很多人是沒有勞保的，這個下去我們才發現為什麼我們要去補，所以他不一定會有用到托育，因為托育你就只能選一個，你的育兒津貼跟托育，他就只能選擇一個。"],["石部長崇良：對，育兒津貼跟托育補助。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以我講的是這個族群的人，你有沒有辦法協助他？"],["石部長崇良：您說的是完全沒有……"],["陳委員菁徽：育兒津貼，對。"],["石部長崇良：完全沒有參加任何保險？"],["陳委員菁徽：因為我講的是他可能沒有用到托育的。"],["石部長崇良：那就是育兒津貼嘛！"],["陳委員菁徽：對。"],["石部長崇良：一個是托育補助，一個是育兒津貼，這二擇一。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["石部長崇良：您的意思是說，沒有托育的，就是育兒津貼的部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：就是他必須申請育兒津貼的這部分，你有沒有考慮再把他往上提？"],["石部長崇良：育兒津貼的部分再增加的意思？"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["石部長崇良：我們來研究看看，在政府的財政能力下，現在因為財劃法的關係，中央的統籌分配款也受到影響，所以我們再來評估看看。"],["陳委員菁徽：那我們再跟你做報告，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請林淑芬委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳",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主席 請請經濟部工部長跟農業部陳部長我們請工部長 陳部長 謝謝委員好 專委部長好我們臺灣是小小多山的國家 現在變成小小多光電板的國家了山也光電板 海也光電板 餘溫也光電板 赤鴻池也光電板現在連水庫都是光電板 剛剛主席"},{"start":55.31,"end":81.343,"text":"陳廷輝一直在問 烏山頭水庫的這個事情我要先問一個 光電開發處理原則郭部長 你是第一次到經濟委員會來備詢嗎第一次 沒有 以前在國發會的時候常常國發會辦來喔 用經濟部部長第一次了喔郭部長啊 郭志輝在你這個位置啊 被問了非常多次光電開發的這個弊案或者是爭議"},{"start":82.597,"end":101.637,"text":"那時候我們確定了一個原則就是要居民同意才可以放行 郭志輝清楚地講案場開發一定要跟民眾溝通取得同意以後經濟部才會考慮放行我今天要問郭規"},{"start":104.017,"end":131.412,"text":"貢匯水嗎 還是會有改變會倒退路嗎有確定這個原則嗎 一定要居民同意才會放行嗎程序上本來就要跟居民溝通然後地方政府同意以後我們才會審查所以說第一關就會碰到居民跟地方政府所以它變成先決條件所以具體的話 居民要溝通第二個沒有同意 不會放行嘛這個原則先定下來郭志威是這個原則 貢部長沒有倒退路也是這個原則 大家看一下"},{"start":132.657,"end":157.046,"text":"大地莊園 你看這多可憐這個是本席跟陳庭輝陳委好幾個委員都問過了原先圈企的地方是住戶有500多戶旁邊那個化變成紅色的全部包圍了這個整個兩個這個莊園這怎麼過日子呢所以後來那時候決定把它暫停下來現在今天我要提一個新的案子請部長注意一下"},{"start":160.083,"end":186.622,"text":"在北門 北門區 北門區有這麼多的住戶結果出現了三個嚴重的問題第一個 居民說說明會不通知相關的利害人這程序就有問題了嘛 對不對我定第二個 開發的面積還不斷增加壓縮了居民生活空間跟生活的品質第三個更嚴重喔因為利益非常龐大"},{"start":187.56,"end":215.533,"text":"有黑道都進來了所以部長這個案子有符合剛剛講的那個原則對不對說明會沒有通知利害人這是不是應該也要符合剛剛的先暫停是不是我要了解一下因為個案的話如果符合剛剛就要停下來對不對就是居民溝通是第一個階段嘛然後地方政府同意嘛那我們再來審查他連第一階段都出問題啦說明會連當事人利害關係人都沒有去啊"},{"start":217.211,"end":230.347,"text":"這個居民清清楚楚講程序有問題啊 符合綱第一個嘛所以應該暫停 你先去了解好不好如果符合這個北門區這個就要暫停下來 第二個我們來談光電板廢棄損害的這個問題"},{"start":233.546,"end":260.935,"text":"7月7號但那是風災之後全台灣33個暗藏13萬5000片的光電板損害了有很多啊放在台塘土地上面那時候崔少哲來我這邊檢舉 你看污染了土地上面的是要環部蓋起來下面連蓋都沒有我今天沒有要問進度下面那個是舊的啦對 我今天要問你目前處理現在已經處理完了"},{"start":261.792,"end":277.805,"text":"清走了嗎清走了嗎還是暫時在那裡 清走了確定喔 我等一下就要去看喔因為你當初 你本來要放多久 三個月是不是本來跟他"},{"start":279.59,"end":300.609,"text":"應該21號之前好沒關係我等一下會去看一下進度你確定有清楚沒有的話我們就進一步再去推這個好不好好那因為你們很清楚的不管是經濟部跟環境部都說已經清理完畢了嘛我要一份資料就這13萬片你們後來整個管理的跟清除的情況好不好我為什麼這樣問來我給你看一個吹哨者這個畫面"},{"start":304.228,"end":325.571,"text":"這個是一個很大的光電的暗藏7月22號拍下來的9月22號9月22號發生風災已經兩個月過了兩個半月了也就是你們所謂的清晚了這是吹哨者來提供的我現在要拿你給我的東西我要對照"},{"start":326.684,"end":350.319,"text":"我現在很清楚的表達吹哨者拍下來到9月22號上面的這個很大的一個光電案上面的蠢害的沒有處理完下面的都堆成這樣你看左邊這個也是右邊也是我要把它堆你把那個東西給我來追清楚好接下來我們來談陳廷輝剛才提的水庫的烏山頭水庫的這個設置的這個問題我想要很明確的問農業部部長"},{"start":355.404,"end":383.588,"text":"你剛講說你們有做了檢測對不對保定 沈部長你們每個月或者你說這個檢測裡面我要問一個最重要的有做塑化劑跟塑膠微粒的這個測驗嗎有做塑化劑的我請我們同仁回答一下好不好因為這個細節的部分報告委員我們塑化劑的檢測我們是持續有在做"},{"start":385.046,"end":410.753,"text":"我先給你看為什麼這麼重要這個是7月份啊公共電視的很重要的一個報導他說塑化劑啊特別是那個塑化微粒 塑化微粒可能就沒有檢測了吧塑化微粒無所不在他跟失智症啊還有心血管疾病的這個病患業者體內曝露的濃度比較高所以這個塑膠微粒是有潛在的健康風險的"},{"start":412.577,"end":416.855,"text":"所以請農業部不是只有做塑化劑好不好做一下塑膠微粒的這個檢測"},{"start":418.861,"end":441.402,"text":"你在水園地 維力並沒有說話劑 維力的部分因為這個部分我回去再跟我們同仁檢討一下看怎麼樣的方式去處理 因為維力的部分不只是所有可能塑膠製品有可能最後會有一些維力的產生但是他沒有辦法有做相關的這些指標性的連結這個我回去我再跟同仁討論一下我們烏山頭11.5公頃的光電板"},{"start":444.807,"end":466.041,"text":"它下面一定是一個浮距跟浮台上面才有光電板嘛對不對浸在水裡這個塑膠微粒的產生一定是必然的然後我給你看的是公式喔應該有公信力吧對不對請了專家學者他跟失智症跟心臟病這個血管暴露這整個濃度是有關係的所以要檢測清楚好不好現在就開始納入檢測"},{"start":466.781,"end":477.787,"text":"不過我想還要跟委員說明清楚因為我們是針對浚露的灌溉的系統我們去做相關的這些水質會不會對作物所影響那相關您剛才講的這個等一下"},{"start":482.452,"end":505.783,"text":"都沒有吃嗎沒有 我說我農業部負責的我農業部負責的部分是這個部分我們進水的話都會 原水就會檢測那趕快做塑化劑 特別是塑膠微粒的這個檢測從現在就要開始做喔因為它對疾病是有影響的第二個 要另外再做一個演練然後給大家看一下這個新聞這是日本三倉水庫定名的"},{"start":507.267,"end":523.724,"text":"太陽能光電結果在2019年發生了火災因為有風災進來整個那個光電板一列為三整個那個架台整個都突起亂堆了冒出了這個火花那時候他們的消防車還沒辦法救"},{"start":526.707,"end":541.653,"text":"所以你現在烏山頭那邊你要去做一個演練跟測試跟這次那個N45一樣不要說又管不到囉好不好這趕快做好不好時間到了所以我非常明確的我現在要幾個東西都非常明確都非常明確"},{"start":542.844,"end":560.538,"text":"我剛剛講的資料請在三天內都送到我這邊來好不好特別是剛剛講的那個非常重要塑膠微粒的這個檢測要開始做然後整個那個消防演練都要做另外是剛剛陳廷輝講的也很重要我跟大家講像我們嘉義現在很多那個很多嘉義市的市民就擔心我們藍毯上面會不會出現光電板"},{"start":565.064,"end":589.294,"text":"因為你烏山頭蓋了嘛 你現在二期嘛 藍潭大家也在擔心嘛所以對於任何任何水庫要蓋光電盤都要非常小心 好不好 民眾都已經在抗議了好不好 不要隨便清洗嘉義的藍潭蓋光電板 一樣的包括烏山頭還有二期跟三期喔 還有其他的這個水庫不要輕易的清洗這個水庫蓋光電板 而且剛剛講的簡直要趕快做 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時53分）謝謝主席，請經濟部龔部長跟農業部陳部長。"],["主席：我們請龔部長、陳部長，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["龔部長明鑫：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：兩位部長好。我們臺灣是小小多山的國家，現在變成小小多光電板的國家了。山也光電板、海也光電板、魚塭也光電板、滯洪池也光電板，現在連水庫都是光電板，剛剛主席陳亭妃一直在問烏山頭水庫的這個事情。","我要先問一個光電開發處理的原則，龔部長，你是第一次到經濟委員會備詢嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，以前在國發會的時候常來。"],["張委員啓楷：在國發會時曾來過。用經濟部部長的身分是第一次。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：郭智輝部長在你這個位置被問了非常多次光電開發的弊案或爭議，那時候我們確定了一個原則，就是要居民同意才可以放行。郭智輝清楚地講，案場開發一定要跟民眾溝通，取得同意以後，經濟部才會考慮放行。我今天要問，郭規龔會隨嗎？還是會有改變，會「倒退嚕」嗎？有確定這個原則嗎？一定要居民同意才會放行嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：程序上本來就要跟居民溝通，地方政府同意以後我們才會審查。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。"],["龔部長明鑫：第一關就會碰到居民跟地方政府，所以它就變成先決條件。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以具體化而言，跟居民要溝通；第二個，沒有同意不會放行嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對……"],["張委員啓楷：好，這個原則先定下來，郭智輝是這個原則，龔部長沒「倒退嚕」，也是這個原則。","大家看一下，大地莊園，你看這多可憐，這個本席跟陳亭妃委員、好幾個委員都問過了，圓圈圈起來的地方是住戶、有五百多戶，旁邊那些變成紅色的，全部包圍了整個的這兩個莊園，怎麼過日子？所以那時候決定把它暫停下來。","今天我要提一個新的案子，請部長注意一下，在北門區有這麼多住戶，結果出現了三個嚴重的問題，第一個是居民說，說明會不通知利害關係人，這個程序就有問題了，對不對？部長。第二個，開發面積還不斷增加，壓縮居民生活空間及生活品質。第三個更嚴重，因為利益非常龐大，有黑道都進來了。所以部長，這個案子有符合剛剛講的那個原則，對不對？說明會沒有通知利害關係人，這是不是應該也要符合剛剛講的，先暫停？是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：我要了解一下，因為個案的話，這個要……"],["張委員啓楷：好，如果符合剛剛講的就要停下來，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是居民溝通是第一個階段，然後地方政府同意，那我們再來審查。"],["張委員啓楷：它連第一階段都出問題啦！說明會連當事人、利害關係人都沒有去，這個是居民清清楚楚講的，程序有問題啊！符合剛剛講的第一個嘛！所以應該要暫停，你先去了解，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我先了解。"],["張委員啓楷：如果符合，北門區這個就要暫停下來。","第二個，我們來談光電板廢棄、損害的這個問題。7月7號丹娜絲風災之後，全臺灣33個案場、13萬5,000片光電板損害了，有很多放在台糖土地上面，那時候吹哨者來我這邊檢舉。你看，污染了土地，上面的圖中那個是用帆布蓋起來，下面的則是連蓋一下都沒有。我今天沒有要問進度……"],["龔部長明鑫：下面那個是舊的，剛發生的時候。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我現在問你，目前處理……"],["龔部長明鑫：現在已經處理完了。"],["張委員啓楷：清走了嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：清走了。"],["張委員啓楷：清走了嗎？還是暫置在那裡？"],["龔部長明鑫：清走了。"],["張委員啓楷：確定喔？我等一下就要去看喔！因為當初你本來要放多久，3個月，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：應該21號之前，本來是想……"],["張委員啓楷：好，沒關係，我等一下會去看一下進度，你要確定有清走；沒有的話，我們再進一步去追這個，好不好？好，因為你們很清楚，不管是經濟部還是環境部都說已經清理完畢了，我要一份資料，就這13萬片你們後來整個管理跟清除的情況，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：我為什麼這樣問？我給你看一個畫面，這是一個很大的光電案場，7月22號拍下來的，9月22號發生風災後，已經過了兩個半月，也就是你們所謂的「清完了」，這是吹哨者提供的。我現在要拿你給我的東西來對照，我現在很清楚地表達，吹哨者拍下來的，到9月22號，這是很大的一個光電案場，上面的是有損害的沒有處理完，下面的則是都堆這樣，你看左邊這個也是、右邊也是。你把這個東西給我，我來追清楚。","接下來，我們來談陳亭妃剛才提的烏山頭水庫設置的這個問題。我要很明確地問農業部部長，你剛剛講你們有做了檢測，對不對？陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：你們每個月或者……這個檢測裡面我要問一個最重要的，有做塑化劑跟塑膠微粒的這個測驗嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有做塑化劑的，我請我們同仁回答一下，好嗎？因為這是細節的部分。"],["陳副署長衍源：報告委員，塑化劑的檢測我們是持續有在做。"],["張委員啓楷：我先給你看為什麼這麼重要，這個是7月份公共電視很重要的一個報導，它說塑化劑，特別是塑化微粒，塑化微粒可能就沒有檢測了吧？塑化微粒無所不在，失智症還有心血管疾病患者體內的暴露濃度比較高，所以塑膠微粒有潛在的健康風險。因此請農業部不是只有做塑化劑檢測，好不好？追一下塑膠微粒的檢測……"],["陳部長駿季：並沒有塑化劑，那微粒的部分，我回去再跟我們同仁檢討一下，看是用怎麼樣的方式去處理，因為微粒的部分不只是……所有塑膠製品有可能最後都會有一些微粒的產生，但是它沒有辦法做相關的這些指標性的聯結，這個回去我再跟同仁討論一下。"],["張委員啓楷：烏山頭11.5公頃，這些光電板，它下面一定是一個浮具跟浮臺，上面才有光電板，對不對？浸在水裡，塑膠微粒的產生是必然的。我給你看的是公視，應該有公信力，對不對？請了專家學者來談，它跟失智症與心血管疾病患者體內的暴露濃度是有關係的。所以要檢測清楚，好不好？現在就開始納入檢測。"],["陳部長駿季：不過我還是要跟委員說明清楚，因為我們是針對圳路灌溉系統去做相關的檢測，就是這些水質會不會對作物有影響，您剛才講的這個……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，烏山頭都沒有吃嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我說農業部負責的是這個部分。"],["張委員啓楷：……是經濟部要做的，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們進水的話，原水就會檢測。"],["張委員啓楷：那趕快做塑化劑的部分，特別是塑膠微粒的檢測，從現在就要開始做喔，因為它對疾病是有影響的。","第二是要另外做一個演練。我給大家看一則新聞，畫面中呈現的是日本山倉水庫上面的太陽能光電設施，2019年那裡在颱風侵襲中發生火災，光電板一裂為三，整個架台凸起亂堆，冒出火花，當時消防車還沒有辦法救喔！所以你們現在要在烏山頭水庫那邊做一個演練和測試，和這次的堰塞湖一樣，不要說又管不到了喔！好不好？這個要趕快做，好不好？","時間到了。我現在要求的幾樣東西都非常明確，我剛剛講的資料請在三天內都送到我這邊來，特別是剛剛講的那個非常重要，塑膠微粒的檢測要開始做，然後整個消防演練也都要做。另外，剛剛陳亭妃講的也很重要，我必須跟大家講，我們嘉義市很多市民現在都非常擔心蘭潭上面會不會出現光電板。"],["龔部長明鑫：蘭潭沒有，不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：因為烏山頭水庫蓋了，現在是二期，所以蘭潭大家也在擔心。對於任何水庫要蓋光電板都要非常小心，好不好？民眾都已經在抗議了，好不好？不要隨便輕啟在嘉義蘭潭蓋光電板，同樣的，包括烏山頭水庫還有二期和三期，還有其他水庫，都不要輕易啟動在水庫蓋光電板，而且剛剛講的檢測要趕快做。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員。","有關剛剛說的檢測，從農業灌溉到飲水的部分，都要特別獨立出來，把所有資料公開，針對這次大家對烏山頭水庫的疑慮，我覺得要有更透明的資料才能讓人民更安心。","現在請鄭正鈐委員質詢。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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明年就要接軌F17有關於新的債務清場的能力也要一同面對最近常常聽到我們金港會對於整個監理寬容的相關的政策的訊息的釋放聽起來是有寬有鬆有寬有窄 有緊有鬆標準我是不曉得在哪裡"},{"start":33.67,"end":48.719,"text":"寬容的尺度之間要如何拿捏因為畢竟對象上每一個財務能力健全度不一嘛你如果包山包海你可能就會變成過度寬容對不對你如果區域嚴格的話那恐怕你要面對的問題就會更多"},{"start":50.76,"end":66.822,"text":"那要如何再透過這種方式來分級管理又不違反原則的情況底下我覺得現階段最重要關鍵我看起來如果就極端值來看的話現在普遍看到就是331這個美邦的這個資本失足率長期來累積起來已經有連續7期"},{"start":68.224,"end":84.321,"text":"你如果連這個都可以接軌的話那顯然就會過度寬容你如果不接軌的話那你要如何面對這個要去清楚我覺得最基本一個原則我記得我之前問過黃天牧主委也就是說如果要接軌之前第一個RBC的部分要提高到200"},{"start":85.922,"end":106.354,"text":"第二個呢 要先自住金管會才會提供人住這個態度有沒有轉變其實沒有轉變沒有轉變那沒有轉變的情況底下呢商商美邦連續七期RBC已經落入資本不足那最近這個金管會裡面說要求他們簽署一個增資承諾書"},{"start":108.269,"end":126.358,"text":"問題是連續三年半都提不出來啦你現在就有辦法嗎這是第一個問題他有沒有能力你要做一個判準你要做一個判準你要給他們多少門檻還有期限才能達到所謂的這個原則不會變嘛主委我跟委員稍微報告一下"},{"start":127.538,"end":144.827,"text":"其實受險業的資本氏族率跟他比如說我們先談這個案子啦你不要再談其他的教科書的原則啦這一定要先講跟委員報告一下大家會以為就是說你資本氏族率不到200你就必須出場不是"},{"start":145.547,"end":158.992,"text":"資本失足率就是假設我最簡單的概念資本減掉負債你還要有一定的buffer你buffer低於我警戒值我叫你改善並不是這家公司不能經營我想這是一個前提我現在不是在談原理原則我談說這個狀況你要怎麼處理不會影響到你監理寬容的尺度的拿捏那當然這是"},{"start":166.375,"end":186.582,"text":"這也是我們就是說怎麼做到公平接軌這是過去我們在這一年來我們每個禮拜密集開會在討論的重點所以剛剛講委員剛剛講說RBC跟這個接軌過程當中會不會因為就像比如這張投影片講說財務不合格也能適用監理寬容這應該要回答兩個問題就是是不是用一樣的監理寬容"},{"start":187.242,"end":213.114,"text":"然後是用不一樣的監理規範那當然就有考慮到公平性了所以我們會很快的就公佈這套制度就可以看得到就是說不會因為你原來原來這個責任會因為接軌而消失這個我想很簡單的道理主委 講白一點你當然是你有一個政策目標嘛你要全部讓他接軌還是一個態度還是要分級處理還是要掌握一定的原則我現在本席要問你的是說你現在很明顯就是遇到這個問題嘛"},{"start":214.395,"end":235.437,"text":"那接下來你要對商商營的部分呢你到底要當媒人來引介不同的對象或者你要準備當新郎要把他迎娶我要問你是說你最後怎麼辦啊如果沒有辦法在一體適用的情況底下你總要有一個基本的態度出來嘛現在沒多久了 現在十月了"},{"start":236.653,"end":262.218,"text":"對啊 所以說我們現在因為這個就是因為像委員講的複雜程度很高所以我們過去一定要非常周延的討論我想我們到現在還沒討論出來討論出來了討論出來態度如何就直接講嘛我剛剛跟各位講過假設我們有一個叫做這個信賴保護原則就是說你現在是一個RBC及格的公司比如說按照我們基準點就是6月30號及格的公司不會因為我換一個制度突然你就"},{"start":263.078,"end":280.145,"text":"你就突然就必須要所以我們給一個過度就是剛剛委員提到的寬容但這個過程當中如果說因為你因為一直沒有完成舊制度的這部分這部分你還是要持續來完成但是這個額外外加的負擔不會因此而減少"},{"start":281.345,"end":295.774,"text":"主委你現在還是迴避這個個案的處理你看最近的整個這個態度是趨嚴或是分歧也不清楚像這保化中心最近釋放出來說研究於這個ICS2.0的過渡措施呢可借金額是15年"},{"start":296.494,"end":315.796,"text":"或超借五年一些業界就開始想說為什麼又變來變去這是第一啦第二部分呢過去我們對整個這個IFO-17的這個部分的接軌基本上IFO-17主要是要透明化可是你最近呢你的報告也提到要重新去評估這一個整個海外投資的狀況"},{"start":316.857,"end":331.609,"text":"海外投資的這個匯殺損的部分過去就是因為過度寬容開放了海外投資45%的一個上限之後以至於現在要承擔這麼多的曝血嘛這是第一嘛第二個部分呢你現在匯損的部分呢你說要蓋牌"},{"start":333.45,"end":352.063,"text":"那這不是跟iPhone SEVENTEEN的這個透明化又相衝我嗎這個跟委員講絕對不是蓋牌我想這是一個非常非常專業也很難去一次說清楚我嘗試跟委員報告委員剛剛講的叫做蓋牌是客氣的沒有 剛剛那個超額跟那個超借跟一般的概念那個變來變去其實並沒有變來變去"},{"start":354.764,"end":379.523,"text":"財務不要讓他收到匯率的風險不揭露然後呢讓業者在整個這一個匯率對他有利的時候他又說他大舉了獲利也就是說呢他獲利的時候他強調透明化他虧損的時候他蓋牌化不是 其實委員其實不是吧你不應該如此吧絕對不是這樣不是這樣子可是你看起來是這樣子啊政策揭露看起來是這樣子啊那你要好好說明一下你要蓋牌就全部蓋牌你要透明就全部透明"},{"start":380.043,"end":383.545,"text":"然後選擇性的蓋牌跟選擇性的透明絕對不是這樣我想委員您誤會了因為今天我想可能時間不夠我盡量講就是我們應該這樣講說其實會計最重要是要公允表達一個行業那只是說我們的現在壽險業這樣經營的型態現行的表達反而產生更大的誤解的時候我們應該尋求更允當表達它的方式而不是蓋牌就像剛才講說"},{"start":406.718,"end":421.5,"text":"今天來講假設這樣做的話你好的你也沒有壞的你也不需要這就是一個公平的概念你要處理好當然你要處理好這是我們絕對要做的你現在做了這麼多監理寬容你無非他也要做出一些一定的回饋你就訂一個大回饋計畫嘛"},{"start":422.841,"end":440.795,"text":"其實我們叫監理寬容其實是不太適當這跟以前我們在合併的監理寬容是不一樣因為我們現在是用更嚴格的規定如果瞬間下去的話當他擬定大回饋計畫的時候你要很清楚他大回饋的計畫內容而不是只有對象"},{"start":442.537,"end":456.577,"text":"對 這是另外一個他要去做的事情不是只有社會 不是只有員工不是一個只有含糊的對象你要擬出一個具體的指標譬如講具體的指標當中你報告一個你就是說他資金還會資金回流的KPI"},{"start":457.498,"end":476.593,"text":"投入工件的比例有多少跟委員報告一下然後投入創新創投的比例有多少這是第一嘛第二個它可以設計出來一個比較符合普惠的人壽的保險而不是只有儲蓄型跟投資型然後不斷的吸金然後又造成新的一個部型的模式出現謝謝委員其實委員你剛才講的方向就是我們現在正要做的就是說"},{"start":477.333,"end":505.68,"text":"我們推出一個嚴格的資本世俗規範當然我們很多公司沒辦法瞬間到位我們給他15年的時間讓你好好做到那一點但這個過程當中將來講說你怎麼樣去調整你的那個資產負債結構剛剛委員講到提到怎麼樣做更多更穩健的經營然後來搭配你的資本監理制度這是我們未來整套馬上會公布的你要給他設定一個基本的一個可能計畫的一個原則跟參考依據嗎這個是應該要做的不是讓他自由的去擬定嗎"},{"start":506.52,"end":526.497,"text":"這樣很符合你的政策目標嗎沒錯 委員剛剛講的完全就是我們受險業長期在比如說資產負債的比如說幣別的不匹配這一部分我們需要花時間來做一個改變這也是我們會在未來這套新的資本制度我們做一個配套來處理這件事情我期待你看出一個更具體的了不要忽鬆 忽緊 忽寬 忽窄"},{"start":530.76,"end":559.482,"text":"我想另外一個部分你知道我們現在股票的蓬勃發展但是弊案好像隨之而來之前如果我們在討論這個的部分當初我們的整個股票市場的這個市值從原來的十大現在變成全球八大原來的九十兆聽說可能會破百兆相對而言最近的整個內線交易炒股案就不斷發生"},{"start":560.663,"end":584.478,"text":"到底這些內線交易跟炒股案是一個法律制度規範的不足或者是判決的這個依據這個定罪率太低還是防逃的機制不夠否則的話這樣的風氣再下去的話站在一個主委你希望這個資本市場的穩定投資人的權益的保障這都是你應該要面對的問題不是嗎是"},{"start":587.233,"end":608.226,"text":"那主委面對這個問題你有沒有什麼想法跟做法其實我從上任開始我想在很多的地方我就發現到這是一個需要被好好來處理第一個我們很多的基金經理人我相信大部分的基金經理人都是非常專業正職的經理人是一個部分喔對然後你看那朱國榮國寶集團總裁落跑啦鮑魚大亨中文字落跑啦"},{"start":608.926,"end":623.917,"text":"重刀最典型的這個部分這個潛逃當然不是你的範圍嘛這個司法體系司法輸送的時間太長也是造成他潛逃一個因素你看還有成德生技 迅達電大立光 成創科技所有的東西"},{"start":624.838,"end":652.08,"text":"都看不出來有什麼樣實質的嚇阻作用對 這是一個司法的問題我想剛才委員司法問題也有可能是立法的問題制度的規範的問題就投影片後面那個跟單的部分我們是確實要好好來解決怎麼樣尊重這個專業然後怎麼樣透過我們現在是希望透過比較科技的方式透過這些交易流來發現這些事情我想已經在做司法機關真的是末端主管機關還是在於你對不對"},{"start":653.061,"end":667.743,"text":"这些一连串的状况当中我建议你 你要我给你一个月的时间你拟一下问如何去解决这些问题跟乱象随着整个资本市场不断的壮大的情况弊案随之增加也不是好事了好不好"},{"start":668.904,"end":686.182,"text":"一個月可以吧可以可以我們把這個相關的一些問題點把它釐清清楚制度怎麼解決政府的態度是如何要對投資大眾講清楚好不好那當然謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝國務委員那再請彭主委一個月內提報告接下來我們請賴會員委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時48分）主席，麻煩請彭主委。"],["主席：我們請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。明年就要接軌IFRS17，有關於這一個新的債務清償的能力，也要一同面對。最近常常聽到我們金管會對於整個監理寬容相關政策的訊息釋放，聽起來是有寬、有窄、有緊、有鬆，但是我是不曉得標準在哪裡，也就是寬容的尺度之間要如何拿捏，畢竟對象上每一個財務能力健全度不一，你如果要包山包海，你可能就會變成過度寬容，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果趨於嚴格的話，恐怕你要面對的問題就會更多，那麼要如何再透過這種方式來分級管理，又不違反原則的情況底下，現階段最重要的關鍵，我看起來，就極端值來看的話，現在普遍看到就是三商美邦的資本適足率，長期累積起來已經有連續七期。你如果連這個都可以接軌的話，顯然就會過度寬容，你如果不接軌的話，那麼你要如何面對？這個要清楚，我覺得最基本的一個原則，我記得之前問過黃天牧主委，也就是如果要接軌之前，第一個，RBC的部分要提高到200%。第二個，業者要先「自助」，金管會才會提供「人助」，這個態度有沒有轉變？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實沒有轉變。"],["郭委員國文：沒有轉變？在沒有轉變的情況底下，三商美邦也已經連續七期RBC落入資本不足嘛！最近金管會說要要求他們簽署一個增資承諾書，問題是連續三年半都提不出來了，你現在就有辦法嗎？這是第一個問題，它有沒有能力，你要做一個判準，你要給他們多少門檻還有期限，才能達到所謂的這個原則不會變，主委？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我跟委員稍微報告一下，其實壽險業的資本適足率跟它比如……"],["郭委員國文：有我們先談這個案子，你不要再談其他的教科書原則，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這一定要先講。跟委員報告一下，大家會以為資本適足率不到200%，你就必須出場，不是！資本適足率假設用最簡單的概念來說，資本減掉負債，你還要有一定的buffer，buffer低於警戒值，我會叫你改善，並不是這家公司不能經營，我想這是一個前提……"],["郭委員國文：對，我現在不是在談這個原理原則，我談這個狀況，你要怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們會……"],["郭委員國文：這會影響到你監理寬容的尺度拿捏。"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，這也是我們怎麼做到公平接軌，這是過去在這一年來，我們每個禮拜密集開會在討論的重點。所以委員剛剛講RBC跟這個接軌過程當中會不會……因為比如這張投影片講的「財務不合格者，也能適用監理寬容？」這應該要回答兩個問題，就是是不是用一樣的監理寬容，如果用不一樣的監理寬容，當然就有考慮到公平性了，所以我們會很快地公布這套制度，就可以看得到原來的責任不會因為接軌而消失，我想這是很簡單的道理。"],["郭委員國文：主委，講白一點，當然你是有一個政策目標，你要全部讓它接軌，是一個態度，還是要分級處理，還是要掌握一定的原則？現在本席要問你，你現在很明顯遇到這個問題，接下來對於三商銀的部分，你到底要當媒人來引介不同的對象，或者你要準備當新郎，要把它迎娶。我要問你的是，你最後怎麼辦？如果沒有辦法在一體適用的情況底下，你總要有一個基本的態度出來，剩下沒多久了，現在10月了耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對啊，這個就是因為像委員講的，複雜程度很高，所以我們過去一定要非常周延的討論。我想我們……"],["郭委員國文：到現在還沒討論出來？"],["彭主任委員金隆：討論出來了。"],["郭委員國文：討論出來了，那麼態度如何？就直接講嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛跟各位講過，我們有一個叫做信賴保護原則，你現在是一個RBC及格的公司，比如按照我們基準點，就是6月30日及格的公司，不會因為我換一個制度，你就突然就必須要……","所以我們給一個過渡，就是剛剛委員提到的寬容，但這個過程當中，如果因為你一直沒有完成舊制度的這部分，這部分你還是要持續來完成，但是這個額外外加的負擔不會因此而減少。"],["郭委員國文：主委，你現在還是迴避這個個案的處理。你看你最近的整個態度是趨嚴或是分級也不清楚，像保發中心最近釋放出來的，研究ICS 2.0的過渡措施，可借金額是15年，或超借是5年，因此一些業界就開始想為什麼又變來變去，這是第一。第二個部分，過去我們對於整個IFRS17的接軌，基本上IFRS17主要是要透明化。可是最近你的報告也提到要重新去評估整個海外投資的狀況，海外投資的匯差損的部分，過去就是因為過度寬容，開放海外投資45%的上限之後，以至於現在要承擔這麼多的暴險。再者，現在匯損的部分，你說要蓋牌，這不是跟IFRS17的透明化又相衝突嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個跟委員講，絕對不是蓋牌，我想這是一個非常非常專業，也很難一次說清楚，我嘗試跟委員報告。委員剛才講，比如……"],["郭委員國文：蓋牌是客氣的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，剛剛談到超額跟超借跟一般的概念變來變去，其實並沒有變來變去……"],["郭委員國文：你把財務……不要讓它受到匯率風險不揭露，然後讓業者在整個匯率對他們有利的時候，他又大舉的獲利，也就是他獲利的時候，他強調透明化；他虧損的時候，他蓋牌化。不會吧！你不應該如此吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，不是這樣，絕對不是這樣。"],["郭委員國文：不是這樣子？可是你看起來是這樣子，你政策揭露看起來是這樣子啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，現在……"],["郭委員國文：你要好好說明一下，你要蓋牌就全部蓋牌，你要透明就全部透明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員講的……"],["郭委員國文：哪有選擇性的蓋牌，跟選擇性的透明？"],["彭主任委員金隆：絕對不是這樣，我想委員您誤會了，今天我想可能時間也不夠，我儘量講。我們應該這樣講，其實會計最重要是要公允表達一個行業，只是我們現在壽險業這樣的經營型態，現行的表達反而產生更大的誤解時，我們應該尋求更允當表達的方式，而不是蓋牌，就像剛才講的，以今天來講，假設這樣做的話，好的沒有，壞的你也不需要，這就是一個公平的概念……"],["郭委員國文：你要處理好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，這是我們絕對要做的。"],["郭委員國文：你現在做了這麼多監理寬容，無非希望他也要做出一定的回饋，那你就訂一個大回饋計畫嘛！對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：叫監理寬容其實是不太適當，這跟以前我們在合併時的監理寬容不一樣……"],["郭委員國文：好，叫「在地化」也可以啦！不管你用什麼名詞，它不是我在意的重點……"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們現在是用更嚴格的規定，如果瞬間下去的話……"],["郭委員國文：現在本席要就教於你的是，當他擬定大回饋計畫的時候，你要很清楚他大回饋計畫的內容，而不是只有對象……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是另外一個他要去做的事情。"],["郭委員國文：對，不是只有股東、不是只有社會、不是只有員工，不是只有一個含糊的對象，你要擬出一個具體指標，譬如具體指標當中，你就報告一個，業者資金回流國內的KPI，投入公建的比例有多少……"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告……"],["郭委員國文：然後投入創新、創投的比例有多少，這是第一個。第二個，他可以設計出來一個比較符合普惠的人壽保險，而不是只有儲蓄型跟投資型，不斷的吸金，然後又造成一個新的暴險模式出現。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，其實委員剛才講的方向就是我們現在正要做的，我們推出一個嚴格的資本適足規範，當然很多公司沒辦法瞬間到位，我們給他15年的時間，讓他好好做到那一點，但在這個過程當中，要怎麼調整他們的資產負債結構，就像剛剛委員提到的，怎麼樣做更多、更穩健的經營，然後搭配我們的資本監理制度，這是未來我們整套馬上要公布的。"],["郭委員國文：你要定一個基本的計畫原則跟參考依據……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是應該要做的。"],["郭委員國文：而不是讓他自由去擬訂，這樣才符合你的政策目標，減少海外投資的風險嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒錯，委員剛才講的完全就是……其實我們的壽險業長期在資產負債部分、幣別不匹配部分，是我們需要花時間來做的改變，這也是未來我們在這套新的資本制度上，會做一個配套來處理監理機制。"],["郭委員國文：我期待你定出一個更具體的指標，不要忽鬆忽緊……"],["彭主任委員金隆：絕對不會，我想……"],["郭委員國文：忽寬忽窄。另外，我們現在的股票市場蓬勃發展，但是弊案好像隨之而來，之前我們也討論過這個部分，當初我們整個股票市場的市值從原來的十大，現在變成全球八大；原來的90兆，聽說可能會破百兆，相對而言，最近的整個內線交易、炒股案就不斷發生。到底這些內線交易跟炒股案是因為法律制度規範不足，或者判決的定罪率太低，還是防逃的機制不夠？如果這樣的風氣再下去，站在主委立場上，希望資本市場穩定、保障投資人權益，這些都是你應該面對的問題，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：面對這些問題，你有沒有什麼想法跟作法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我從上任開始，在很多地方就發現到這是一個需要被好好處理的問題，第一，我相信大部分的基金經理人都是非常專業正直的……"],["郭委員國文：經理人是一個部分，但是你看國寶集團總裁朱國榮落跑了，鮑魚大亨鍾文智落跑了，這是重大、典型的部分，當然潛逃不是你的責任範圍……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個司法體系部分……"],["郭委員國文：但是司法訴訟時間太長，也是造成潛逃的一個因素，你看還有晟德生技、訊達電腦、大立光、誠創科技，所有規定都看不出有什麼實質的嚇阻作用。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是一個司法的問題，我想剛才委員……"],["郭委員國文：有些是司法問題，也有可能是立法的問題、制度規範的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就投影片後面那個跟單的部分，我們確實要好好來解決，怎麼樣尊重專業，然後怎麼樣透過……我們現在是希望透過比較科技的方式，透過這些交易流來發現這些問題，我想現在已經在做了。"],["郭委員國文：主委，司法機關是末端，但主管機關還是在於你，對不對？這一連串的狀況，我給你一個月的時間，建議你研擬要如何解決這些問題跟亂象，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：整個資本市場不斷壯大的情況下，弊案隨之增加，這也不是好事，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["郭委員國文：一個月可以吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，我們把相關的一些……"],["郭委員國文：把問題點釐清清楚，制度怎麼解決，政府的態度如何，要對投資大眾講清楚，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，請彭主委一個月內提報告。","接下來請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"164000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcb000e82260d5b86885f90000f7f2f0abef4ee7f50dc8c1790d1fb675c659de675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:39:02 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烏山頭水庫 曾文水庫 南化水庫我們絕對不會核准任何一個光電執照是不是可以 部長來 部長是 巴委員我想這樣 因為"},{"start":370.936,"end":392.063,"text":"就是現在民眾有一些餘力餘力有兩個嘛它穩不穩固嘛那第二個就是這個清洗的時候的方式嘛那我想既有的部分清洗的部分我們會加強監督沒有 部長我告訴你你依照我這個部分後面我們會談到白河烏山頭這是台南白河烏山頭真聞難話"},{"start":394.18,"end":418.133,"text":"因為基本上現在沒有一個縣市政府敢准地方政府沒有核准我們就不可能所以我們就宣誓 我們為什麼都不敢講宣誓說如果在地方政府都不同意的前提之下我們不可能核准任何一張的我們在水庫上面的光電執照地方政府不同意的話"},{"start":419.213,"end":447.384,"text":"對不對 好 我們就訂了這個嘛所以地方政府 由地方政府把關各縣市政府在我們的水庫上面 包括因為真文有嘉義縣跟台南市嘛所以我們在整個的氛圍當中白河 烏山頭 真文 南化只要各縣市政府不同意我們絕對不會核准任何一張在水庫上方的光電執照OK吧"},{"start":448.024,"end":474.309,"text":"好第二個部分就是說這是農業部的農業部因為烏山頭的光電板是在111年完成依照租賃合約的時間是9年11個月這我對你們的合約說出來所以租賃9年11個月我在這裡要求期間夠不要再續租了不要再續租了可以嗎"},{"start":476.206,"end":490.482,"text":"可以嗎 我想我們 電證我如果沒有同意你也沒辦法續租啦 對地方政府如果沒有同意的話我們中央絕對不會壓著地方政府同意 對嘛所以你們農田水利署就不能再續租這個宣示性很重要"},{"start":491.516,"end":508.574,"text":"我們不要這樣子好像畏畏縮縮的要講就講大聲所以我們如果在9年11個月也就是121年4月23日時間到了租任合約到了我們農田水利署允諾不再續租"},{"start":511.151,"end":536.405,"text":"這個我們拜託農業部這個要堅持然後再來我們在這段時間合約規定清洗是禁用清潔劑的這裡面合約有寫得非常清楚也就是部長剛所說的我們是禁用清潔劑的好這個部分要怎麼控管才能讓民眾安心我們的這個能源署或是我們"},{"start":537.984,"end":565.454,"text":"我可不可以先說明一下我們就因為灌溉用水的部分其實我們農業部包括我們的那個管理處烏山頭管理處的部分我們大概一年檢測了五次然後在不同點位在哪裡你這個要公開啊烏山頭然後這個所有的檢測在環境部的網站都有公告它一定是用清水的因為大家已經對於烏山頭我們的水師檢測站也會有你要把它公開嘛管理處的網站也會有"},{"start":566.414,"end":582.039,"text":"那這個網站公開之後那有人說好像真的設了111年設的時候我們的水質有改變有這樣的話嗎有這樣的狀況嗎沒有這樣的沒有這回事情沒有這回事你把它公開啊資訊公開啊"},{"start":583.53,"end":604.616,"text":"你要跟大家 沒有 部長你資訊那麼多大家不知道哪一個是否我們烏山頭的哪一個是否我們灌溉水源的哪一個是否我們的水池的特別事情已經發生了你慢慢半拍 把資料調出來有 我們都有監測"},{"start":607.057,"end":635.611,"text":"這些錯假訊息用清潔劑洗其實清潔劑洗含有磷的時候在相關的檢測是檢測得出來的所以我們相關的檢測都是安全的而且是沒有用到清潔劑因為含有磷的部分所以這個部分我們會有處理那你就要把這一塊單獨出來在現在大家紛紛擾擾的時候把它獨立出來做一個非常重要的一個資訊透明再來那我們要怎麼控管水質那我們經濟部"},{"start":637.33,"end":665.025,"text":"我們也是一樣進到進水廠之前我們都會檢測啊需要檢測是OK的對 沒有資訊資訊在哪裡你們都說有啊我們有在檢測啊問題資訊在哪裡我拜託在今天之後你們兩個部會把這兩個獨立出來讓大家看清楚我們的水質是怎麼檢測的好再來因為我們一年要洗兩次"},{"start":665.826,"end":668.042,"text":"清洗兩次 這個誰在控管"},{"start":669.11,"end":696.067,"text":"清洗兩次 這個光電板用清水清洗的光電板好 那拜託我們在清洗的時候我們邀請現場關心的民眾甚至里長去看嘛怎麼清洗的嘛也可以這個樣子把它透明化是不是可以可以把它透明化這樣大家都沒有疑慮了再來我要拜託因為現在還有一個疑問說"},{"start":698.468,"end":721.034,"text":"這個綠能公司是我們台汽電的孫公司是我們的孫公司所以如果現在民眾這麼樣的反彈我們是不是可以跟他溝通可以做什麼樣的處置來我們能源署台電台電是不是可以台電是不是可以"},{"start":723.128,"end":743.167,"text":"可以我可以要求台電請台電公司來幫忙那另外這一個剛才講他對個人對他公司名譽的毀損那麼他們在禮拜五已經去警局做登記然後今天法院上班之後他們就會提出那是公司的問題我一直強調公司他自己要維護他的名譽他自己要去維護"},{"start":743.908,"end":763.275,"text":"可是我們的政府我們要怎麼讓人民安心這是兩鬼兩件事可是我們往往都把它併在一起我們是兩件事所以我說的我們要怎麼去溝通我們台氣店因為既然是孫公司嘛台氣店怎麼做很重要讓人民怎麼安心"},{"start":763.955,"end":778.734,"text":"就刚才委员讲的清洗刚才农业部说他们会来检查那我们也会透过公司这一边要求他要清洗的时候要找地方的村里长跟民众大家一起来看那避免未来这种谣言再发生"},{"start":779.625,"end":794.52,"text":"重點就是水庫上方不能再準任何的光電板然後呢我們9年11個月時間到了我們農水署不要再租給他們我相信這樣民眾就會比較安心謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時39分）謝謝主席，我們先請經濟部、農業部，還有環境部。"],["主席（邱委員議瑩代）：請經濟部、農業部、還有環境部。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["龔部長明鑫：召委好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長、次長好。今天我手上有一份陳情書，這是最近因為丹娜絲颱風之後，我們烏山頭水庫的光電板再次被提起，而且再次變成一個很重要的討論焦點。烏山頭水庫的光電板是111年就已經完成的，可是為什麼在最近又被提出了？就因為丹娜絲颱風，我們看到所有的光電板，因為被風吹了，很多都破爛不堪，大家擔心如果在烏山頭水庫上面的光電板也變成這個樣子，該怎麼辦？還好這一次丹娜絲颱風，烏山頭水庫的光電板沒有造成嚴重的狀況，可是他們擔心下一次呢？","還有第二個，因為有人故意要去提醒說，光電板到底怎麼清洗？我相信這在過去漁電共生的時候，我們也討論過，就是清洗光電板到底是用清潔劑還是清水？我們當時就已經有要求，在訂合約的時候，一定不能用清潔劑，所以在你們的合約裡面也有訂了不能用清潔劑的規定，為什麼有這樣的聲音跟風向，你知道我到地方跑行程，所有的人都拉著我說：「拜託！我們都支持民進黨的，我們的水庫上面怎麼可以放光電板？這會造成我們的灌溉水源，我們的飲水源會有問題。」這很可怕，你知道嗎？這一個禮拜的風向，你們處理的速度實在是太慢，所以我手上拿的是地方人民的陳情書，他們陳情的部分，我今天把它做成簡單的文字讓大家看到，他們所說的烏山頭水庫是有它民生、國安的特殊重要性，如果污染了，我們怎麼辦？而且它灌溉了整個雲嘉南平原15萬畝的良田，北至虎尾，南至臺南安平，是臺灣最大的穀倉，如果這個部分沒有辦法成為民生跟國防的最大後盾怎麼辦？","再來，有關於整個供應水的部分，依照自來水法跟飲用水管理條例相關的法規，因為水源保護的重要性，都應該禁止所有的興建跟設置行為。再來，我們是嘉南農業的命脈，民生用水的基石、環境生態的屏障，所以烏山頭水庫設了光電板，大家的內心無法承受，但是我必須強調這是111年就已經設置好的，因為這一次丹娜絲颱風再次被檢討、再次被提醒。它也是我們的文化遺產，我們所看到的這座文化遺產「烏山頭水庫」是八田與一所留下的重要資產，所以這幾點讓六甲的鄉親、讓官田的鄉親……甚至現在因為他們提出這些聲明，變成從北至南全部都涵蓋了。","所以兩位部長，還有環境部的次長，這個嚴重性茲事體大，絕對不是告而已，當然今天沒有用化學藥劑，而被說有用化學藥劑，引發社會的恐慌這個要告，業者要告是業者的事，可是我們政府要給人民什麼樣的信心指數是很重要的，但我們每次都偏廢了，然後變成一個風向，搞到最後政府無法承擔。兩位部長跟次長，我要拜託大家，我們是不是能夠來做一個宣示？因為基本上，現在在水庫要設光電板，如果地方政府不同意，其實它是沒有辦法設立的，包括我們在曾文水庫，還有烏山頭水庫的二期都一樣，烏山頭水庫二期是因為現在臺南市政府不同意，而曾文水庫是因為嘉義縣政府不同意，所以這個全部停擺，我們是不是做一個宣示？如果水庫現在已經引發大家這麼多的爭議，不論臺南的白河水庫、烏山頭水庫、曾文水庫、南化水庫，我們絕對不會核准任何一個光電執照，是不是可以？請教部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為現在民眾有一些疑慮，疑慮有兩個，第一個是它穩不穩固，第二個是清洗時候的方式嘛！我想既有清洗的部分，我們會加強監督……我們也歡迎……"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有。部長，我告訴你，你依照我這個部分來看，後面我們會談到，臺南白河、烏山頭、曾文、南化，因為基本上現在沒有一個縣市政府敢准耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：程序上，地方政府沒有核准，我們就不可能審查，所以這沒有審查的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，所以我們就宣示嘛！你們為什麼都不敢講，宣示說：「如果在地方政府都不同意的前提之下，我們不可能核准任何一張設置在水庫上面的光電執照。」對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對啊！地方政府不同意的話，我們就不會收件。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，我們就訂了這個嘛！所以地方的由地方政府把關，各縣市政府在我們的水庫上面……因為曾文水庫範圍涵蓋嘉義縣跟臺南市嘛！所以在整個的氛圍當中，白河、烏山頭、曾文、南化等水庫，只要各縣市政府不同意，我們絕對不會核准任何一張在水庫上方的光電執照，OK吧？"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：第二個是有關於農業部的部分，因為烏山頭的光電板是在111年完成，依照租賃合約的時間是9年11個月，這是我從你們的合約節錄出來的，所以這租賃9年11個月，我在這裡要求期限到了，不要再續租了，可以嗎？等於我們政府不同意，他們也沒辦法續租啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，地方政府如果沒有同意的話，我們中央絕對不會壓著地方政府同意。"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛！所以你們農田水利署就不能再續租，這個宣示性很重要，你們不要這樣好像畏畏縮縮的，要講就講大聲一點，如果在這9年11個月期滿，也就是121年4月23日，時間到了、租賃合約到了，你們農田水利署允諾不再續租，這部分我們拜託農業部要堅持。再來，我們在這段時間，合約規定清洗是禁用清潔劑的，這合約裡有寫得非常清楚，也就是部長剛所提到的，我們是禁用清潔劑的。好！這個部分要怎麼控管，才能讓民眾安心？請教農業部或是能源署，這要怎麼處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我先說明一下，因為灌溉用水的部分，其實我們農業部，包括烏山頭管理處，我們大概一年檢測了5次，然後在不同點位……"],["陳委員亭妃：在哪裡？你們這個要公開啊！"],["陳部長駿季：烏山頭水庫……這些所有的檢測在環境部的網站都有公告，它一定是用清水的。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為大家已經對於烏山頭……"],["陳部長駿季：我們的水質檢測站也會有。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，你要把它公開嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：管理處的網站也會有。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。這個網站公開之後，有人說好像在111年設了以後，我們的水質有改變，有這樣的話嗎？有這樣的狀況嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有這回事情。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有這回事情，你把它公開啊、資訊公開啊！你要跟大家……"],["陳部長駿季：我們資訊有公開啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你資訊那麼多，大家不知道哪一個是for烏山頭的？哪一個是for灌溉水源的？哪一個是for水質的？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我們會把烏山頭的部分特別拉出來，特別是有設置光電板的部分。"],["陳委員亭妃：事情已經發生了，你們還慢半拍，把資料調出來，「有！我們都有監測。」"],["陳部長駿季：這些錯假訊息，其實用含有磷的清潔劑在清洗的時候，在相關檢測是檢測的出來的，所以我們相關的檢測結果都是安全的，而且沒有用到清潔劑，因為含有磷的部分……所以針對這部分，我們會來處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：好。部長，你就要把這一塊單獨列出來，在現在大家紛紛擾擾的時候，把它獨立出來，做一個非常重要的資訊透明。再來，你們要怎麼控管水質？請教經濟部，在喝的部分呢？。"],["龔部長明鑫：有，我們也是一樣。它進到淨水廠之前，我們都會檢測，到目前為止，檢測都是OK的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，資訊呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：OK，好。"],["陳委員亭妃：請教資訊在哪裡？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們有公布……"],["陳委員亭妃：你們都說：有啊！我們有在檢測啊。問題是資訊在哪裡？拜託！在今天之後……"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我們會再特別說明。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們兩個部會把這兩個獨立出來，讓大家看清楚……"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們的水質是怎麼檢測的。再來，因為你們一年要清洗兩次，請教用清水清洗的光電板，這個誰在控管？"],["陳部長駿季：由我們管理處在控管。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，拜託！你們在清洗的時候，邀請現場關心的民眾，甚至里長去看怎麼清洗的嘛！也可以這個樣子把它透明化，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["陳委員亭妃：可以把它透明化，這樣大家都沒有疑慮了。再來，我要拜託，因為現在還有一個疑問是說，這家綠能公司是台汽電的孫公司，所以如果現在民眾這麼反彈，你們是不是可以跟他們溝通，看可以做什麼樣的處置？能源署。台電是不是可以？"],["李署長君禮：可以，我要求台電，請台電公司來幫忙。另外，剛才講對它公司名譽的毀損，他們在禮拜五已經去警局登記，今天法院上班之後，他們就會提出告訴……"],["陳委員亭妃：那是公司的問題。"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我一直強調，公司自己要維護它的名譽，它自己要去維護。"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們的政府，我們要怎麼讓人民安心，這是兩軌、兩件事。可是我們往往都把它併在一起，是兩件事。"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以像我說的，我們要怎麼去溝通。因為既然是台汽電的孫公司，台汽電怎麼做很重要，怎麼讓人民安心？"],["李署長君禮：是，就剛才委員講的清洗，剛才農業部說他們會來檢查，我們也會透過公司這邊，要求它清洗的時候要找地方的村里長跟民眾，大家一起來看，避免未來這種謠言再發生。"],["陳委員亭妃：重點就是水庫上方不能再准任何光電板，然後9年11個月的時間到了，農水署不要再租給他們，我相信這樣民眾就會比較安心。謝謝。"],["李署長君禮：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員亭妃）：我們先確定議事錄，不好意思。上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤？（無）沒有的話，議事錄確定，謝謝。","現在請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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早那麼先請教啦就是因為現在有關於輝達要這個設海外總部在台北市這個北思科的T478的用地的爭議那現在來看的話就是因為新售這裡面有一個賴總統已經說話了就希望中央跟地方好好的合作怎麼樣讓輝達一定留在"},{"start":36.776,"end":51.645,"text":"台北市或者是台灣這個地方喔那我就請問你因為你們軍管會的你的武器在哪裡你們有什麼武器可以幫這個事情搞定 有沒有"},{"start":52.882,"end":68.449,"text":"報告委員其實這個從所有的媒體包括到今天截止各位很清楚這是一個主要是授權公司跟台北市政府他們在做一個在一個地上權上面雙方合約上面的爭議"},{"start":69.87,"end":96.451,"text":"我們這邊在金管會上面很明顯的就是他們是一個不動產投資是一個因為我們的所謂的這些的地上權在我們的不動產交易管理辦法裡面它是屬於所謂的樹地的投資所以我們是從這個角度它就是我們一般假設金管會的角度來看它就是我們不動產投資管理的範疇至於說現在契約上的爭議那是他們在契約上面他們應該按照契約的精神去解決"},{"start":97.315,"end":105.08,"text":"好 那我就請教你啊因為原來跟台北市政府簽約叫新售是可是現在它已經被消滅掉了還沒幾乎是吧 怎麼沒有呢它現在新病啊台新跟新光病了以後它是預計明年1月1號對 但是在10月底之前在10月底才能夠決定新售其實是不見了 怎麼會還有呢新售還有嗎"},{"start":125.147,"end":153.446,"text":"就是因為兩家合併他是被併的還是併人家的看是他們採用哪種合併在法律上他們現在應該他送件過來選擇的消滅公司應該是星光人壽法律上的消滅公司但是他們事後呢兩家是合併在一起那更名為星光人壽大概是我們送的文件是這樣呈現的結果他們送給你的是星光人壽要被併的"},{"start":154.927,"end":171.666,"text":"不是他病人家嘛他是法律上面的消滅公司對嘛 就是消滅公司嘛所以等於說跟台北市政府簽約的新獸不見了在法律上他是因為就等於說他變成現在跟台新合併以後的新的新光人獸"},{"start":173.177,"end":186.912,"text":"是嘛 就是在星星啊星星監控底下的星光人獸嘛應該這樣 所以主體是變的喔對 那時候他們合併完成確實這個主體已經法律上不是原來的兩家它就變成一家"},{"start":187.708,"end":207.065,"text":"好 那我現在就請問你所以你有沒有著力點嘛因為現在賴總統都已經講話啦你們的著力點在哪裡你的著力點在哪裡我剛跟委員報告我們是金融監理機關我們關注的是金融監理的議題我剛才說過這兩部分一個是他們之間的契約"},{"start":208.106,"end":234.195,"text":"的糾紛 這我們過去呢我們主管機關絕對不會介入到契約的糾紛但是他今天是一個不動產投資我們有一套完整的不動產投資的規範他就必須要遵守好 那他現在來講跟因為原來的新售跟台北市政府簽是五年的時間要開發不動產但現在到今年底就是四年了結果現在動都沒有動"},{"start":236.176,"end":245.43,"text":"這個情況是不是一定要等到五年後才台北市政府才可以跟他解約還是說現在來講的話已經看得到不可能一年蓋好了"},{"start":246.035,"end":270.491,"text":"我想這個問題應該去問他們雙方但是我們這邊我剛跟委員講說就是我們現在關注的是他這個不動產投資案是否符合我們不動產的相關的規範現在沒有符合因為現在的話我們的規範是非常的清楚就是說當我取得這樣一個過戶過來以後都審的時間不算接下來是五年的時間你必須要及時利用且有收益"},{"start":272.796,"end":297.221,"text":"現在四年過去了到今年年底就四年了幾乎都沒有動我們的算法其實那是另外他們跟台北市政府的合約是一個這個要把它區分清楚那是他們合約上面訂定的問題我們這裡是本來其實我們這種所謂的地上權的投資已經非常非常多了已經不是只有這個案子我想這個都非常普遍你們怎麼監管地上權的投資你們怎麼監管"},{"start":299.161,"end":326.513,"text":"沒有 我們就剛才講說我們現在對不動產投資這明顯在保險法146號之二裡面投資必須即時利用且有收益所以說我們現在來講假設你買一個標定你必須要立刻就有收益假設你買土地的話土地不可能立刻有收益所以我們在那個辦法你明定就是給五年但五年裡面有特別講清楚就是說你前面的都審這個問題不在你身上 對不對所以這個可以扣除那接下來就是五年的時間"},{"start":329.734,"end":357,"text":"那現在來講他五年到明年算不算到明年到期還沒因為其實各位如果看那個時序我想他們各自都有說明就是我取得以後他送督審那督審以後那我就請教你現在來講他們雙方因為現在新售也軟化了因為在雨熱的壓力底下他希望提出一個叫合意的解約這樣的方向你樂不樂見"},{"start":358.42,"end":378.631,"text":"這個我剛剛跟委員報告過了其實我接下來我也會不斷的說這是他們雙方之間的協議其實我們在一個金融監理機關我們是制度的建立者我們是管的是受險公司他的不動產投資所以等於說你在這個地方沒有任何阻力點他們合約的問題我們當然不會介入"},{"start":381.715,"end":400.422,"text":"簡單來講就是賴總統說要中央幫忙沒辦法可以幫忙中央有很多的部會中央有很多的部會我們在是個金融監理其實中央有非常非常多的部會不是只有金管會所以金管會沒有辦法我們是尊重我們這個體制尊重我們的監理的職權所以用百花文講就是你們是沒辦法幫的好"},{"start":401.943,"end":407.67,"text":"我們來看股市巨幅震盪今天本來說外面都說今天要跌1000點以上事實上沒有了跌了400多1500點可是我的重點不是這裡我的重點在於"},{"start":418.564,"end":427.286,"text":"所以已經漲到27000可是你注意看股我們1800 將近1800點的股票幾乎三分之二以上都沒有漲沒什麼漲都是跟AI相關的類股才有漲這個道地的台灣就變成荷蘭病了經濟荷蘭病了就只有某個產業很好其他產業都不太好其他傳統產業五星價的人越來越多到上萬人了因為說"},{"start":446.61,"end":455.1,"text":"這是關稅的影響等等的你怎麼看這個事情你覺得AI相關股會不會泡沫"},{"start":456.497,"end":480.937,"text":"根本不知道我真的不是這方面的專業但是我也因為很多人提醒這樣我們在對金融市場的特別資本市場建立我也自己也開始去理解這個問題結果來發現就是說實際上這個AI這樣的一個所謂的商機不是只有台灣是全世界都在看好這件事情我也很多種說法我不會去做預測我只是說台灣在過去確實在"},{"start":482.438,"end":497.763,"text":"比如說我們過去從一萬多點漲到兩萬多點確實是集中在某一些產業這跟我們進出口的這也是高度的一致這也是為什麼說因為它整個基本因為時間到你就簡單講好不好台灣有沒有得到你從你股市監理的角度看台灣有沒有得到經濟荷蘭病的"},{"start":506.305,"end":528.037,"text":"這種現象有沒有其實我覺得非常多元有人從過去的歷史來看就是說好像是這樣但有人說其實他去分析國外的股票也是就是你賺錢的公司未來前景好他的股價持續漲另外但是你沒有前景的那股價就平均所以你的意思就是所以你的意思就是除了AI以外都不太會漲也不太賺錢"},{"start":530.618,"end":544.727,"text":"不是 不是就說大家對他的預期就說其他不是只有台灣股市是這樣就像比如說有人說2008年就起漲起跌不管好壞都漲多跌那個反而是一個奇怪但是有時候呢他假設我們市場越來越精準"},{"start":545.649,"end":553.734,"text":"我們投資人越來越聰明所以其實現在的情況在過去歷史上不見得能夠找得到我請教最後一個問題金管會有沒有能力查案網因為在10月7號台灣的復達投信"},{"start":565.882,"end":586.676,"text":"215萬筆的客戶資料 按網售328 USDT 就是美金啦這麼便宜 一點多 萬分之一點多你們有沒有能力差這個事情因為投信投股很多都有投資人的個資他們這樣外洩 你們怎麼看"},{"start":588.004,"end":605.951,"text":"其實我想這個對所有的政府機關或是這些查緝單位都是一個重點我必須坦白跟各位跟委員報告我們金管會組織結構大家都非常透明我們只有一個支付處我們待會可以我們的專家這個是我們的志工專家我可以請我支付處來回答這個問題好 謝謝 處長"},{"start":609.954,"end":627.174,"text":"公務員報告 金管會有請財經公司成立金融資安資訊分辨中心那他們目前有一個機制會定期去收集案碗上面相關的資訊如果有的話他會有在收集嗎有 有 目前有定期在看就是要確保投信投顧的相關投資戶的個資"},{"start":629.985,"end":657.784,"text":"對 如果是案碗上面涉及金融機構的部分我們會有一個定期收集的機制如果有發現的話會通現在跟你講起來就是最新這一筆啊你怎麼處理最新這一筆怎麼處理這一筆是不是我們再回去確認一下是不是在之前曾經處理過10月7號目前沒有看到這一筆對 我們事後再回報告好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝賴委員接下來我們請郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時37分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請彭主委。"],["主席：好，請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：你早。先請教主委，有關於輝達要設海外總部在臺北市北士科T17、T18的用地爭議，現在來看，因為新壽這裡面有一個……賴總統已經說話了，希望中央跟地方好好的合作，怎麼樣讓輝達一定留在臺北市或者臺灣這個地方。我就請問你，金管會的武器在哪裡？你有沒有什麼武器可以幫忙把這個事情搞定？有沒有？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實這個從所有的媒體披露到今天截止，各位很清楚，這個主要是壽險公司跟臺北市政府一個地上權雙方合約的爭議。很明顯的他們是一個不動產投資，因為所謂的地上權在我們的不動產交易管理辦法裡面是屬於素地投資，所以從這個角度來說，它就是我們一般……假設以金管會的角度來看，它就是我們不動產投資管理的範疇。至於現在有關契約上的爭議，他們應該按照契約的精神去解決。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我就請教你，因為原來跟臺北市政府簽約的叫新壽，可是現在它已經被消滅掉了……"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒。"],["賴委員士葆：幾乎是吧，怎麼沒有呢？它……"],["彭主任委員金隆：它現在還是……"],["賴委員士葆：新新併啊！台新跟新光併以後……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，預計明年1月1號。"],["賴委員士葆：但是在10月底之前，在10月底才能夠決定，新壽其實是不見了，怎麼會還有呢？新壽還有嗎？新壽還存在嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為兩家合併，必然……"],["賴委員士葆：它是被併的還是併人家的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：看他們採用哪種合併，在法律上，他們現在送件過來所選擇的消滅公司應該是新光人壽，法律上是消滅公司，至於存續公司……"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！它是被消滅的公司。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是他們事後是兩家合併在一起，更名為新光人壽，大概我們看到送的文件是這樣呈現的。"],["賴委員士葆：結果他們送給你的是新光人壽是要被併的，不是它併人家嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是法律上面的消滅公司。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛，就是消滅公司嘛，所以等於跟臺北市政府簽約的新壽不見了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在法律上，它是因為……就等於變成現在跟台新合併以後的新的新光人壽。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛，就是在新新金控底下的新光人壽，應該這樣講，所以主體是變了喔！主體變了……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果他們合併完成，確實這個主體在法律上已經不是原來的兩家，而是變成一家。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我現在就請問你，所以你有沒有著力點嘛？因為現在賴總統都已經講話啦，對不對？你們的著力點在哪裡？你的著力點在哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才跟委員報告，我們是金融監理機關，我們關注的是金融監理的議題。我剛才說過這有兩部分，一個是他們之間的契約糾紛，過去我們主管機關絕對不會介入到契約的糾紛，但是它今天是一個不動產投資，我們有一套完整的不動產投資規範，它就必須要遵守。"],["賴委員士葆：好，以現在來講，因為原來的新壽跟臺北市政府簽的是5年的時間要開發不動產，到今年底就是4年了，結果現在動都沒有動，這個情況是不是一定要等到5年後臺北市政府才可以跟它解約，還是說以現在來講已經看得到不可能在1年內蓋好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個問題應該去問他們雙方，但是我們這邊，我剛才跟委員講的就是，我們現在關注的是這個不動產投資案是否符合我們不動產的相關規範。"],["賴委員士葆：現在有沒有符合？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以現在來說，我們的規範是非常清楚的，就是當我取得這樣一個不動產，在過戶過來以後，都審的時間不算，接下來5年的時間你必須要即時利用且有收益。"],["賴委員士葆：現在4年過去了，到今年年底就4年了，幾乎都沒有動啊，聞風不動啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的算法是一個，另外他們跟臺北市政府的合約是一個，這個要把它區分清楚，那是他們合約上面訂定的問題。其實這種所謂地上權的投資已經非常非常多了，不是只有這個案子，我想這個都非常普遍，過去……"],["賴委員士葆：你們怎麼監管地上權的投資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對、對，我們……"],["賴委員士葆：你們怎麼監管？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，就是剛才講的，我們現在對不動產投資是明寫在保險法第一百四十六條之二，投資必須即時利用且有收益，所以現在來講的話，假設你買一個標的，你必須要立刻就有收益，但假設你買的是土地的話，土地不可能立刻有收益，所以我們在那個辦法裡面明定給5年的時間，但這5年裡面有特別講清楚，前面的都審問題不在你身上，所以這個可以扣除，接下來就是5年的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：好，以現在來講的話，5年算不算明年到期？"],["彭主任委員金隆：還沒，其實各位如果看那個時序，我想他們各自都有說明，就是取得以後它送都審，都審通過以後……"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我就請教你，以現在他們雙方來講，現在新壽也軟化了，因為在輿論的壓力底下，它希望提出一個叫合意解約，這樣的方向你樂不樂見？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我剛才跟委員報告過，其實接下來我也會不斷地說，這是他們雙方之間的協議，而我們是一個金融監理機關，我們是制度的建立者，我們管的是壽險公司的不動產投資是否符合……"],["賴委員士葆：所以等於說你在這個地方沒有任何著力點就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於他們合約的問題，我們當然不會介入。"],["賴委員士葆：OK，簡單來講，賴總統說要中央幫忙，但你沒辦法可以幫嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：中央有很多的部會……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有工具嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：中央有很多的部會，我們是金融監理，其實中央有非常非常多的部會，不是只有金管會。"],["賴委員士葆：所以金管會沒有辦法來幫忙就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們是尊重我們這個體制，尊重我們的監理職權。"],["賴委員士葆：OK，用白話文來講就是你們沒辦法幫啦！","好，我們來看股市巨幅震盪，本來外面都說今天要跌1,000點以上，事實上沒有啦，跌了四百多點，跌了四、五百點，我的重點不是這裡，我的重點在於已經漲到兩萬七了，可是你注意看我們將近1,800檔的股票，幾乎三分之二以上都沒什麼漲，都是跟AI相關的類股才有漲，這個道地的臺灣變成經濟荷蘭病了，就只有某個產業很好，其他產業都不太好。你看，傳統產業無薪假的人越來越多，都上萬人了，因為受到關稅的影響等等的，你怎麼看這個事情？你覺得AI相關類股會不會泡沫？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我真的不是這方面的專業，但是因為很多人的提醒，我們在對金融市場，特別是資本市場監理，我自己也開始去理解這個問題，後來發現實際上AI這樣一個所謂的商機，不是只有臺灣，是全世界都在看好這件事情，我想也有很多種說法，我不會去做預測。我只是說臺灣在過去，比如股市，我們過去從一萬多點漲到兩萬多點，確實是集中在某一些產業，這跟我們的進出口也是高度的一致，這也是為什麼，因為它這整個基本面……"],["賴委員士葆：好，因為時間到了，你就簡單講，好不好？從你股市監理的角度看，臺灣有沒有得到經濟荷蘭病的這種現象？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我覺得非常多元，有人從過去的歷史來看，就說好像是這樣，但有人說其實他去分析國外的股票也是，賺錢的公司未來前景好，它的股價持續漲，但是沒有前景的股價就平……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這跟以前齊漲齊跌的那種泡沫不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思就是除了AI以外，都不太會漲，也不太賺錢，所以都不漲，是不是這個意思？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，就是大家對它的預期，其實不是只有臺灣股市是這樣，就像比如有人說2008年就齊漲齊跌，不管好壞都漲或都跌，那個反而是奇怪的。但是有時候假設我們市場越來越精準，我們投資人越來越聰明，所以其實現在的情況在過去歷史上不見得能夠找得到，各種說法都有。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我請教最後一個問題，金管會有沒有能力查暗網？因為在10月7日臺灣的富達投信，215萬筆的客戶資料，暗網售328 USDT，相當美金328元，這麼便宜，1筆是萬分之一點多元，你們有沒有能力查這個事情？投信投顧很多都有投資人的個資，他們這樣外洩，你們怎麼看？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我想這個對所有政府機關或是查緝單位都是一個重點，我必須坦白跟委員報告，我們金管會組織結構都非常透明，只有一個資服處，待會可以請我們的專家，這是資工專家，我可以請資服處來回答這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：好，快點，我時間到了。"],["林處長裕泰：跟委員報告，金管會有請財金公司成立金融資安資訊分享中心，他們目前有一個機制會定期去蒐集暗網上面的相關資訊，如果有的話，他們會……"],["賴委員士葆：有在蒐集嗎？"],["林處長裕泰：有，目前有定期在看。"],["賴委員士葆：就是要確保投信投顧相關投資戶的個資。"],["林處長裕泰：對，如果是暗網上面涉及金融機構的部分，我們會有定期蒐集的機制，如果有發現的話，會通知金融機構來確認。"],["賴委員士葆：我現在已經跟你講最近這一筆，你怎麼處理？最近這一筆怎麼處理？"],["林處長裕泰：這一筆我們再回去確認一下是不是在之前曾經處理過，目前沒有看到10月7日這一筆，我們之後再跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。","接下來我們請郭國文委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","林思銘","顏寬恒","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","李彥秀","王世堅","葛如鈞","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","林楚茵","邱志偉","陳玉珍","羅明才"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆率所屬機關首長暨中央存款保險股份有限公司、監管相\n關機構有關之財團法人、臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司、臺灣期貨交易所股份有限公司、臺灣集\n中保管結算所股份有限公司等董事長、總經理列席業務報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00002"}}},{"id":"163998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163998","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc833d688b9293d028eadaba8731997982ef4ee7f50dc8c17905dc707a53e8c9f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:27:39 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研習等等的來提升它的效率當然更重要的如何精準管理"},{"start":129.218,"end":156.699,"text":"更重要所以我們現在串聯各種的資訊流做這個大數據分析來精準管理看看能不能夠所以你就覺得這E化就能夠完全解決人力的問題嗎它能夠強化我們的這個管理的能力可是地方長期就是人力不足的問題中央補助獎勵是一回事不能就這樣子擺著不處理那財化法整個地方的分配款增加之後是不是要求"},{"start":157.984,"end":176.438,"text":"地方優先來增加人力來做改善好那最後也請衛福部是不是提供一份那個比較完整的說明跟規劃給我們好我們那個委員的建議非常好我們會持續透過這個要求這個地方多增編這個死案人力來提升"},{"start":180,"end":195.751,"text":"應該事實上他們要增加人力在我們看就是部長審計部針對去年的食安議題的審計報告早就點名了中國的食品未經核准不得輸台可是我們再次看到現況是"},{"start":197.152,"end":225.057,"text":"網路平台 夜市照樣有人賣還有人打著個人自用免查驗的名義一次又一次的進口大量未經核可的食品根本就變成假自用 真商業那變成我們的食安制度的一個破口根據審計部的報告113年我們就有超過70萬人用這種方式來進口食品而且總量超過350萬公斤而且九成都是食品跟調味料"},{"start":225.917,"end":244.045,"text":"這樣的數量怎麼可能是個人自用呢你們當時回應審計部說會加強網路稽查阻斷未核准的食品流入也會針對頻繁巨量濫用制度設計對策可是現在到114年年底了像我問部長說"},{"start":245.906,"end":256.799,"text":"這一年來制度到底有沒有改善具體的作為又是什麼因為我們直至到現在我們辦公室都還是可以透過這些去買淘寶去買到這些東西所以想問一下"},{"start":258.392,"end":277.243,"text":"對 這個委員提的確實是提出了我們現在的痛點就是電商平台的部分就是四面間的查核中國黑心食品或違規的食品那個努力都在查 那個都有查到現在就是那個電商平台所以我們也在研議應該要來考慮因為7月16行正有開過一個虛實對應因為如果講虛實對應的話"},{"start":284.708,"end":314.348,"text":"實體是你們 食品是你們管的話那就會變成是你們是 所以我們也在思考應該要來提出像這個食安法的修法把電商平台的管理納入就好像上一次大院這邊我們通過的這個淹害防治法一樣把那個電商平台一併納入管理那包含它的這個借街啦或者是在這個電商平台上販賣的業者或平台的提供者都應該克與相當的責任"},{"start":314.748,"end":332.082,"text":"部長是不是儘快因為這些東西一直進來事實上是對我們國人事實上是沒有保障的那也請衛福部給我相關的確確執行的數據跟成效委員好這邊是要數這邊多一點點小小的補充我們這一電商平台其實上個會期裡面有同樣的議題我們被"},{"start":333.503,"end":351.441,"text":"提醒所以我們已經把相關的科與電商平台的義務跟責任他必須要確定這個產品是否違法是否合法等等的落地的你們都有管沒有落地的你都沒辦法管的話我覺得現在就是非落地的是不是要一併管我覺得才有辦法解決問題"},{"start":353.503,"end":371.377,"text":"在我們看就是 食品安全不能只停留在查禁有害物質更重要的是關乎到孩子的健康從第一次兒權公約的審查到四年前的國際委員再三提醒台灣政府都被要求要重視兒童肥胖的問題"},{"start":371.997,"end":393.036,"text":"你自己國建署也一直在有這樣的宣導可是幾年下來我們的成績單沒有太大變化從第一次國際委員到第二次明年要交國家報告第三次了我不知道你們怎麼去回應這件事情因為台灣兒童的肥胖連年列名我們的前段班像男童事實上是第六名"},{"start":394.437,"end":415.03,"text":"女童是第十二名肥胖真的是上次前段班每四位小學生就有一位體重超重國中生更超過三成的超重兒童糖尿病的狀況也令人擔憂兒童肥胖牽扯到生活作息運動習慣等面向可是回到你們自己來看國健署一直說你們"},{"start":415.911,"end":434.591,"text":"要減少兒童肥胖拒絕零食遠離高熱量高油高鹽高熱量可是問題是現在市場上都賣這些東西的時候那這就是你們應該負責要負責的主戰場所以台灣的兒童的健康警報早就響起部長你怎麼去看現在"},{"start":435.371,"end":462.797,"text":"食品安全的政策跟肥胖問題的關聯性政府到底有沒有要準備去解決這個長年沒有解決的危機確實委員提出是一個非常重要的一點就是肥胖是未來就是孩子的時候的肥胖跟未來他的代謝症候群或相關三高是有關聯性的所以這個兒童肥胖的問題我們會積極的納入在我們健康台灣這個下面"},{"start":464.517,"end":493.38,"text":"另外一个就是营养从小如何建立这个正确的营养观念还有这个运动这两个可能要一起来来并进才有办法就是说部长这是大概都是全球要面对到的一个挑战联合国已经提醒说食品产业以利润为导向我们的饮食环境对孩子并不友善所以刚刚讲说你们接下来会去努力在健康台湾这边可是超加工的食品高糖高脂高盐"},{"start":493.86,"end":515.708,"text":"低營養被證實跟兒少肥胖糖尿病注意力發展問題都高度相關對孕婦跟胎兒也有長期的影響這是公共衛生的一個警訊日韓歐盟都用法規限制食品廣告跟規範校園周邊而且要求食品要更清楚標示以外也要更易懂"},{"start":516.548,"end":536.064,"text":"那WHO在2016年早就建議說要課徵我們的糖稅韓國也正在討論加稅並用稅制來誘導我們的健康的選擇那所以想問部長台灣會跟進嗎因為除了無糖飲料最近那個降稅那我們是否考慮用稅制來改善兒童的食品環境"},{"start":537.084,"end":555.813,"text":"當然這個委員提到的是這個可能有些國家在實施的糖稅或者是糖捐這種健康捐的概念不過我們第一步先從這個簡明標示讓大家容易這個消費者容易懂我們現在的標示有的時候比較專業"},{"start":558.935,"end":575.608,"text":"從專業的角度是比較專業一點但是讓消費者來講不容易明白到底這個含量這個成分是OK不OK是健康不健康那部長食品安全衛生管理法會不會增訂條文要求"},{"start":576.188,"end":595.349,"text":"超加工食品额外标示简明的你刚刚讲你们会开始做分级标示那会再入法去要求吗那部长也从额少的肥胖议题的角度上你如何看待我们的营养及健康饮食促进法上路一年了成效如何"},{"start":599.011,"end":605.676,"text":"確實剛上路我們目前所做的事情是先去擴大營養教育營養的認知的提升當然對於"},{"start":615.095,"end":628.28,"text":"國人的這個重視我想還有一些需要在我們更努力的地方確實所以那衛福部有沒有研究在台灣的兒少飲食習慣研究超加工食品對兒童跟孕婦的風險"},{"start":629.693,"end":648.173,"text":"有做這方面的嗎目前據我的了解是還沒有這方面的研究我們也期待你說對兒少跟家長的教育宣導跟廣告的管制也要拜託你們持續加強更積極讓家長也能夠去了解那這些政策我們也期待"},{"start":648.713,"end":673.849,"text":"你們應該讓兒少一起共同來參與因為也讓他們對於我們的政府的一些政策能夠了解那接下來是不是請衛福部也把這些完整的一個因應政策跟法規再提供給我們我們未來會讓國健署跟食藥署一起來合作提升這個部分那部長最後一個問題這個非常的重要雖然我們的召委已經站起來我們還是花一點時間"},{"start":675.17,"end":696.906,"text":"剛我們談到的兒童參與這是兒權公約的最核心的精神也是為父母主責的業務那十年來我們都有不少進步像行政院兒委會都有兒少參與也是全世界絕無僅有的成果那可是這幾年我們的制度都有沒有偏離初衷像台中最近發生的就兒少代表這件事情為例"},{"start":697.606,"end":721.116,"text":"去年台中市政府二月就公告兒少代表參與的規則跟六月完成遴選那兒少也收到通知了因為他們會前一年然後呢遴選進來之後開始賠例到今年就會開始去執行可是今年一月市府卻片面修改規則四月突然通知這些兒少說你們不能參加政府的會議"},{"start":721.696,"end":746.774,"text":"你去年已經是通知他說你已經是入企了結果今年說你不能進來還宣稱說這是依照中央的規範是中央規範跟兒權公約整個過程完全沒有跟兒少討論也沒有任何事前說明所以孩子手中的這個入企通知一夕之間變成是廢紙我想問部長台中市政府這種依照兒少"},{"start":748.756,"end":773.693,"text":"說依照中央的兒少權法的規範請問中央規範允許這樣的言而無信嗎我們會進一步的了解這個兒權法因為他們有這個設置要點所以兒權會怎麼去運作的程序我們會進一步了解同時會要求台中市政府在下一次我們的兒權"},{"start":776.555,"end":799.888,"text":"那個部裡面有一個兒少的福利與權益推動小組的會來做一個專案的報告所以我不只是要問這件事而是整個整體的體制度所以今天我只是先邀請部長一定要對這件事情表態不能放任地方政府去扭曲兒權公約部長你是否願意承諾全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制"},{"start":800.928,"end":815.738,"text":"你政府要邀請兒少出來要做公共參與卻用這種方法來對待他們那我接著也會辦一場兒少參與權的公聽會也希望衛福部能夠派組織單位能夠來出席和民間跟兒少一起對話"},{"start":816.558,"end":837.483,"text":"我們非常的支持要落實這個CRC的精神讓這個兒少能夠真正的參與各項的這個兒童相關的政策的制定過程所以部長你可不可以先全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制好 我們來看一下各縣市政府的規定好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時27分）主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["石部長崇良：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。部長，這次黑心豬大腸事件，政府的應對與裁罰還算快速，可是我想問一個核心的問題，也就是你們現在的食安稽查人力到底夠不夠？為什麼這樣問？從監察院10年前的報告到去年蘇丹紅事件，再到前天地方政府的說法，事實上問題沒有改變，像臺北市說因為他們的稽查人員離職率高達四成，而且新北市議員還說換算每一位稽查員一年要處理800件案子，表示大家都知道人力不足事實上是一個很關鍵的問題。今天的標題也是人力不足，可是從今天的專報內容來看是陷入出事之後再補一點點人力的一個惡性循環，所以今天的專報，部長，你認為是治標還是治本？為什麼？地方政府說靠e化補人力，我也不知道靠e化補人力是什麼意思；衛福部說邊境用的大數據抽檢會越來越精準；食藥署也說現在的機制已經非常完整，可是我非常擔心會不會下次出事的時候又說是人力不足。","衛福部有五大措施，也就是食安五大措施都很好，可是不論是在加強抽檢還是全面溯源，每項都是需要人力的，所以請部長明確回答中央與地方的食安稽查人力到底夠不夠？"],["石部長崇良：當然，在人力的部分，我們持續強化，包含人力，就是多少人，還有稽查的方法、能力也一併要提升，所以我們也會辦一些訓練、研習等等來提升效率，當然更重要的……"],["林委員月琴：因為你今年12月……"],["石部長崇良：如何精準管理更重要，所以我們現在串聯各種資訊流做大數據分析來精準管理，看看能不能夠……"],["林委員月琴：所以你覺得ｅ化就能夠完全解決人力的問題嗎？"],["石部長崇良：它能夠強化我們的管理能力啦。"],["林委員月琴：地方長期就是有人力不足的問題，中央補助獎勵是一回事，但不能就這樣子擺著不處理啦！財劃法整個地方的分配款增加之後，是不是要求地方優先針對人力來做改善……"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["林委員月琴：最後也請衛福部是不是能提供一份比較完整的說明跟規劃給我們？"],["石部長崇良：好，委員的建議非常好，我們會持續透過要求地方多增編食安人力來提升。"],["林委員月琴：是，因為錢已經都到地方去了，事實上他們應該要增加人力。"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["林委員月琴：再來，部長，我們看到審計部針對於去年食安議題的審計報告早就點名中國的食品未經核准不得輸臺，可是我們再次看到現況是網路平臺、夜市照樣有人賣，還有人打著個人自用免查驗的名義，一次又一次的進口大量未經核可的食品，根本就是假自用真商業，變成我們食安制度的一個破口。根據審計部的報告，113年我們就有超過70萬人用這種方式進口食品，其中有九成都是食品跟調味料等相關產品，總量超過350萬公斤，這樣的數量怎麼可能是個人自用呢？你們當時回應審計部說會加強網路稽查，阻斷未核准的食品流入，也會針對頻繁、巨量濫用制度設計對策，可是現在到114年年底了，我想請問部長，這一年來在制度方面到底有沒有改善？具體的作為又是什麼？因為直到現在，我們辦公室都還是可以透過這些通道（例如：淘寶）去買到這些東西，所以想請問一下。"],["石部長崇良：對，委員確實是提出了我們現在的痛點，就是電商平臺的部分，也就是說，市面上查核中國黑心食品或違規食品，那個都有努力在查，也都有查到，現在就是電商平臺的部分，所以我們也在研議……"],["林委員月琴：部長，覺得電商平臺應該誰來處理？"],["石部長崇良：應該要來考慮……"],["林委員月琴：因為7月16號行政院有開過一個虛實對應，以虛實對應來講的話，如果實體是你們，食品是你們管的話，那就會變成是你們。"],["石部長崇良：是，所以我們也在思考應該要提出食安法的修法，把電商平臺的管理納入，就好像上一次大院這邊通過的菸害防制法一樣，把電商平臺一併納入管理，包含他的介接，或者是在電商平臺上販賣的業者或平臺的提供者，都應該課予相當的責任。"],["林委員月琴：部長，是不是儘快？"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["林委員月琴：因為這些東西一直進來，事實上對我們國人是沒有保障的，也請衛福部給我相關確切執行的數據跟成效。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好，食藥署這邊做一點點小小的補充，對於電商平臺，其實上個會期有同樣的議題，我們被提醒，所以我們已經把相關課予電商平臺的義務跟責任……他必須要確定這個產品是否違法、是否合法等等，我們會繼續努力。"],["林委員月琴：署長，落地的你們都有管，沒有落地的你們都沒辦法管的話，現在就是非落地的是不是要一併管，我覺得這樣才有辦法解決問題。"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["林委員月琴：再來，部長，食品安全不能只停留在查禁有害物質，更重要的是關乎到孩子的健康。從第一次兒權公約的審查到四年前的國際委員再三提醒，臺灣政府都被要求要重視兒童肥胖的問題，你自己國健署也一而再、再而三有這樣的宣導，可是幾年下來，我們的成績單沒有太大變化，從第一次國際委員到第二次，明年要交國家報告，第三次了，我不知道你們怎麼去回應這件事情。因為臺灣兒童的肥胖連年列名前段班耶，男童是第六名，女童是第十二名，我們的肥胖真的是在前段班，每四位小學生就有一位體重超重，國中生超重比例更超過三成。兒童糖尿病的狀況也令人擔憂，我們當然知道兒童肥胖牽扯到生活、作息、運動習慣等面向，可是回過頭來看，你們自己國健署一直宣導要減少兒童肥胖要「拒絕零食、遠離高熱量」，避免高油、高鹽、高熱量等食品，可是問題是現在市場上都賣這些東西，這就是你們應該負責食安的主戰場。臺灣兒童的健康警報早就響起，部長，你怎麼去看現在食品安全政策跟兒童肥胖問題的關聯性？政府到底有沒有要準備去解決這個長年沒有解決的危機？"],["石部長崇良：對，確實委員提出的是非常重要的一點，就是肥胖是未來……就是孩童時期的肥胖跟未來他的代謝症候群或相關三高是有關聯性的，所以兒童肥胖的問題，我們會積極的納入在「健康台灣」下面，另外一個就是營養，從小如何建立正確的營養觀念，還有運動，這兩個可能要一起並進才有辦法。"],["林委員月琴：我們來看一下，部長，這大概是全球要面對到的一個挑戰。聯合國已經提醒，食品產業以利潤為導向，我們的飲食環境對孩子並不友善，所以你剛剛說接下來會在「健康臺灣」這邊去努力，可是超加工食品的高糖、高脂、高鹽、低營養被證實跟兒少肥胖、糖尿病、注意力發展等問題都高度相關，對孕婦跟胎兒也有長期的影響，這是公共衛生的一個警訊耶！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["林委員月琴：日、韓、歐盟都用法規限制食品廣告跟規範校園周邊，而且要求食品要更清楚標示以外，也要更易懂。WHO在2016年早就建議要課徵糖稅，韓國也正在討論加稅並用稅制來誘導健康的選擇，所以想問部長，臺灣會跟進嗎？因為之前無糖飲料有降稅，我們是否考慮用稅制來改善兒童的食品環境？"],["石部長崇良：當然，委員提到的是有些國家在實施的糖稅或者是糖捐這種健康捐的概念，不過我們第一步先從簡明標示開始，讓消費者容易懂，我們現在的標示有的時候比較專業……"],["林委員月琴：對，很難看得懂。"],["石部長崇良：從專業的角度來說是比較專業一點，但是卻讓消費者不容易明白到底這個含量、這個成分OK不OK、健康不健康，這個我們……"],["林委員月琴：部長，食品安全衛生管理法會不會增訂條文要求超加工食品額外做簡明的標示？你剛剛講你們會開始做分級標示，會入法去要求嘛……"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["林委員月琴：部長，從兒少肥胖議題的角度上，你如何看待我們的營養及健康飲食促進法？上路一年了，成效如何？"],["石部長崇良：確實，這個剛上路，我們目前所做的事情是先去擴大營養教育，營養認知的提升，當然，針對國人對於這個部分的重視，我想確實還有一些需要我們更努力的地方。"],["林委員月琴：所以衛福部有沒有研究臺灣兒少的飲食習慣及超加工食品對兒童跟孕婦的風險？有做這方面的研究嗎？"],["石部長崇良：據我的了解是目前還沒有這方面的研究，我們來……"],["林委員月琴：我們也期待你所說要對兒少跟家長的教育宣導跟廣告管制，也要拜託你們持續加強，要更積極的讓家長也能夠去了解。有關於這些政策，我們期待你們應該讓兒少一起共同來參與，也要讓他們對於我們政府的一些政策能夠有所了解。是不是請衛福部也把這些完整的因應政策跟法規再提供給我們？"],["石部長崇良：我們未來會讓國健署跟食藥署一起來合作，提升這個部分。"],["林委員月琴：部長，最後一個問題，這個非常的重要，雖然我們的召委已經站起來，我們還是花一點時間。剛剛我們談到的兒童參與，這是兒權公約最核心的精神，也是衛福部主責的業務，10年來我們都有不少進步，像行政院兒委會都有兒少參與，也是全世界絕無僅有的成果，可是這幾年我們的制度有沒有偏離初衷？像臺中最近發生的，以兒少代表這件事情為例，去年臺中市政府2月就公告兒少代表參與的規則跟6月完成遴選，兒少也收到通知了，因為他們會前一年就開始遴選進來，然後要進行培力，到今年就會開始去執行，可是今年1月市府卻片面修改規則，4月突然通知這些兒少不能參加政府的會議，去年已經通知他被錄取了，結果今年說不能進來，還宣稱這是依照中央的規範，是你們中央規範跟兒權公約，整個過程完全沒有跟兒少討論，事前也沒有任何的說明，所以孩子手中的錄取通知一夕之間變成廢紙。我想問部長，臺中市政府說是依照中央的兒少權法的規範，請問中央規範允許這樣的言而無信嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我們會進一步的了解兒權法，因為他們有設置要點，所以兒權會怎麼去運作的整個程序，我們會進一步了解，同時會要求臺中市政府在下一次到我們部裡面的兒少福利與權益推動小組會議來做一個專案報告。"],["林委員月琴：所以我不只是要問這件事，而是整個整體的制度，今天我只是先邀請部長一定要對這件事情表態，不能放任地方政府去扭曲兒權公約。部長，你是否願意承諾，全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制？政府要邀請兒少出來做公共參與，卻用這種方法來對待他們。我接著也會辦一場兒少參與權的公聽會，也希望衛福部能夠派主責單位出席，和民間跟兒少一起對話。"],["石部長崇良：好，是，我們非常支持要落實CRC的精神，讓兒少能夠真正參與各項兒童相關政策的制定過程。"],["林委員月琴：所以，部長，你可不可以先全面檢視中央到地方的兒少參與機制？"],["石部長崇良：好，我們來看一下各縣市政府的規定。"],["林委員月琴：好。謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳菁徽委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}},{"id":"163997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edcd1df688e77b9267985f9000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謝謝主席因為時間很短所以我就直接提問來我請經濟部跟農業部部長好不好兩位部長我們請兩位部長我也好"},{"start":21.427,"end":49.181,"text":"兩位部長好 部長我想請教一下 直接問這個因為丹納斯颱風跟728的豪雨其實對於南台灣是重創不過我剛剛看了很多部會的報告包括交通部等等其他的報告其實幾乎台灣大部分的縣市都納進去了我想請教一下針對這樣的一個風災所造成的災害我們的復原進度目前大概是多少"},{"start":49.801,"end":78.992,"text":"那行政院在10月9號呢又通過了一個修正案要追加250億要把花蓮的這一次的這個水災堰塞湖溢流的這樣的一個災害把它納進去我其實比較關心的就是說這個追加了250億要怎麼花要怎麼編列原先的600億的預算會不會被排擠到來兩位部長誰可以來回答"},{"start":80.509,"end":97.779,"text":"包委員我先說明一下現在這個進度進行的狀況只要是那個復原包括水啊電啊那個我們就盡快已經都復原了但是有一些比較中長期的比如說產業界他們可能有一些受創然後我們補助他那個持續在進行當中現在有"},{"start":98.719,"end":123.211,"text":"也大概有好幾百個案件每一個項目都有還有貸款那個也持續在進行當中那這個部分是產業的部分你比較難立竿見影馬上可以看得到但是我們也有這個巡迴輔導但是你們你是巡迴輔導還是說我們是主動去協助你是等他來被動等他來申報還是我們主動去協助我們有成立一個行動服務團會那個25個這個區公所還有5個"},{"start":126.519,"end":155.496,"text":"这个产业园区我们会去巡回所以是主动去协助他们嘛对对对好来那个农业部陈部长您可不可以回答一下我跟委员很简单的说明就是刚才您说的进度大概分为几个面向第一个面向是现金救助的部分那现金救助的部分现在各公所提报初刊大概都结束了那现在就是说初刊完以后他们有一个复刊那现在整个平均起来大概他们已经合拨率大概60那有的县市像高雄已经到9成了"},{"start":155.896,"end":174.104,"text":"但是有些縣市比較少因為它量比較量體比較大一點這是第一個部分第二個部分是基礎工程的部分像邊坡還有農水路的部分那相關的部分在那個特別預算裡面編的76.82億那這個76.82億也是當初公共工程委員會針對各縣市提報上來的"},{"start":176.525,"end":199.295,"text":"那這個部分各地方政府已經提計畫了那我們會大概也審的初審已經確定了所以盡快的會開始去執行這個部分所以部長您講的76.8億是在水土保持在農水路跟邊坡的水土保持的部分比如說我們去看過的像六龜啦甲仙啦等等的這些土石流邊坡的部分是25.72億然後相關的農水路的部分大概45.58億"},{"start":203.237,"end":223.498,"text":"好那我再進一步請教你們現在追加了250億裡面的艷澀湖整治要花107億請問這艷澀湖你們現在打算怎麼整治過去一直告訴大家這個艷澀湖因為沒卡路 躺下去其實它是在處理上是有一定的困難度的那現在出框了這個107億請問是要怎麼做"},{"start":225.82,"end":254.912,"text":"我想農業部這個部分我們整個花架在颱風造成的這個部分我們大概編了59億左右那其中有一部分天然災害的是用原來天然災害救助基金所以實際會傾徵的部分大概是將近30幾億到40億左右並沒有像剛才那個那個委員所提到的但是整個馬灘從上游的壩體到下游的部分那現在上游的壩體現在非常不穩定雖然說他的"},{"start":256.229,"end":267.92,"text":"那個溢流是相當穩定的但是壩體不穩定邊坡也容易崩塌這個責任分工是在你農業部還是在水利署能夠做協助因為治水的這件事情"},{"start":269.474,"end":289.574,"text":"應該不是你農業部的主責吧不是你的專業強項吧但是下游的這些提防加高跟那個水道的疏洪的部分是由水利署來負責我們是跨部會這樣合作的所以你們有組一個專家學者來共同來做這個有 我們有跨部會的專業小組那這個專業小組的召集人是誰會不會是李鴻元教授"},{"start":292.079,"end":311.888,"text":"應該不是應該不是啊 對所以你們有另外再組一個小組對 因為跨部會本身然後我們有所謂的專家小組那專家小組像台大的團隊還有楊交大的團隊跟成大的團隊都會進來當作一個專家的諮詢的部分但是整個的決議的部分還是由我們的跨部會小組來處理"},{"start":312.827,"end":333.459,"text":"好 這個陳部長我想剛剛跟您提問的這一些部分因為其實在這一次的這個花蓮的這個馬太安溪的一流的事件其實相當嚴重土石流警戒的警訊發布很多人不當做一回事像我們南部是收到我們大家都會"},{"start":335.08,"end":343.09,"text":"盡量這幾回輸啦 我們大家就會開始注意然後開始準備要疏散 要撤離那現在你們的土石流警戒的發布"},{"start":344.881,"end":372.577,"text":"如果過去這段時間大家並不引以為意的話我覺得應該要再重新的制定一個標準然後這個執行面上面能夠怎麼樣做 做到什麼樣的程度我覺得政府單位應該要及時掌控包括這個拱部長水利單位對於河流 河川的這個流速對河川的掌控"},{"start":374.27,"end":393.733,"text":"河道包括水位的高低的這些掌控程度我覺得應該要借用現在最新的這個高科技的監控系統把它做一個重新的整治這個應該要放在你們的特別條例的預算裡頭去做一個重新的盤點這一點我希望這兩個部會都能夠做得到好不好"},{"start":394.671,"end":411.033,"text":"我簡單跟委員報告就是您剛才講的疏散的部分像昨天在花蓮的那個前進協調所總協調官他已經強調了整個的疏散撤離計畫中央的部費都已經做了協助然後現在整帶花蓮縣政府縣長"},{"start":412.054,"end":431.972,"text":"決定了以後就會做相關的這些演練的部分因為只有 唯有演練才能夠讓居民更早的遇到相關的警戒發布以後能夠迅速的做一個疏散作為這是第一個部分如果他們不懂的話可以請他們來請教高雄市啦可能不需要去請教到陳市長可以來問我就可以了啦"},{"start":433.213,"end":457.814,"text":"這個疏散撤離我們其實都有一套很完整的SOP而且非常的精準掌控撤離的這些民眾到底去了哪裡住在哪裡然後這些保全戶的範圍之內多久要巡邏一次這些SOP如果不懂的話其實是可以來請教本席那部長我覺得你們也可以把我們過去在高雄做的這一些很精準的這些撤離動作"},{"start":460.98,"end":479.218,"text":"這個弄一份報告給指揮官弄一份報告給花蓮縣政府這個還要等他們的縣長批我看大概這個點也拉不下來我覺得就強制去做這樣的要求好不好好 了解其實我本來還有一個問題要問那個可以嗎好 來兩位部長請回那個能源署能源署今天有沒有來"},{"start":489.906,"end":504.926,"text":"不好意思 主席 我兩分鐘很快來 能源署你們這個防災維電網跟移動式電網的這個計畫上一次被要求要提書面報告所以現在重新提出那我看到在特別預算底下你們這個只編列了8億元"},{"start":506.688,"end":523.867,"text":"來做防災微電網是你覺得這個錢夠嗎不夠我們希望能更多但是因為目前只有8億所以我們未來會把它編入好那你目前只有8億你預計要做在哪裡因為我看你寫的報告是要求地方政府提報場域然後由台電去技術支援喔"},{"start":524.527,"end":551.037,"text":"有没有可能能源署可以自己主动的比如说在山区的地方高雄的桃园纳马下茂林地区山区每次受创严重的时候其实路断掉桥断掉你的救灾你的台电的工程车其实是进不去的所以这个韧性防灾的微电网能不能主动去盘查然后在山区我们就立刻来把这个韧性的电网去把它做起来"},{"start":551.357,"end":568.02,"text":"是可以的但是我們一方面也要跟地方政府那個偏遠的鄉鎮公所來配合因為他們最知道他們未來的人要撤到哪裡去那基本上我們第一線我們會先尊重他那如果他不提的話那我們會替他來安排跟做建議"},{"start":568.806,"end":597.906,"text":"这个署长我想你们的这个房灾维电网我认为其实还有很多的这个精进的空间包括是不是能够跟一些这个做维电网的这些业者做除能设备的这些业者去做一些会谈去设计更适合在当地的比如说可移动式的除电系统那屋顶的太阳能是不是家家户户都能够建置一个一定的程度瓦数的"},{"start":598.706,"end":620.156,"text":"能夠提供一定電力度數的這些太陽能板讓這一些其實山上的居民他不一定是要被撤離走但是他只要遇到電線桿斷掉停電的時候他整個電力供給是出問題的時候我覺得移動式的這些儲能系統應該會在那個時候發揮相當大的功能這個可不可以請你們再去研究一下好嗎是 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":550,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時28分）謝謝主席。因為時間很短，所以我就直接提問，請經濟部部長及農業部部長兩位部長上來，謝謝。"],["主席：請兩位部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：兩位部長好。部長，我想請教一下，就直接問了，因為丹娜絲颱風及728豪雨對於南臺灣是重創，不過我剛剛看了很多部會的報告，包括交通部等等，幾乎臺灣大部分的縣市都納進去。我想請教一下，針對這樣的風災所造成的災害，我們的復原進度目前大概是多少？行政院在10月9日又通過了一個修正案，要追加250億，把花蓮這次的水災、堰塞湖溢流的災害納進去。我其實比較關心的是，這個追加的250億要怎麼花、要怎麼編列，原先600億的預算會不會被排擠到？兩位部長，誰可以回答？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我先說明一下現在進度進行的狀況。"],["邱委員議瑩：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：只要是復原，包括水、電，我們都已經儘快復原了，但是有一些中長期的，比如產業界可能有一些受創，我們予以補助，那個持續在進行當中，現在大概有好幾百個案件，每一個項目都有，還有貸款的部分也持續在進行當中。"],["邱委員議瑩：產業的部分比較難立竿見影，但可以看得到……"],["龔部長明鑫：是，但是我們有巡迴輔導團。"],["邱委員議瑩：你們是巡迴輔導，還是主動去協助？是被動等他們來申報，還是主動去協助？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們有成立一個行動服務團，會去25個區公所及5個產業園區巡迴。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以是主動去協助他們嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：農業部陳部長，你可不可以回答一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員很簡單地說明。剛才您說的進度大概分為幾個面向，第一個面向是現金救助的部分，目前各公所提報初勘大概都結束了，現在就是初勘完以後有一個複勘。現在整個平均起來，他們核撥率大概已經60%，有的縣市像高雄已經到九成了，但是有些縣市比較少，因為它的量體比較大一點，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分是基礎工程，像邊坡還有農水路，相關的部分在特別預算裡面編了76.82億，這個76.82億也是當初公共工程委員會針對各縣市提報上來的，這個部分各地方政府已經提計畫了，我們初審已經確定了，所以會盡快開始去執行這個部分。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以部長，您講的76.82億是在水土保持、在農水路……"],["陳部長駿季：農水路跟邊坡的水土保持的部分。"],["邱委員議瑩：比如說，我們去看過的像六龜、甲仙等等這些土石流……"],["陳部長駿季：對，邊坡的部分是25.72億，相關農水路的部分大概45.58億。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。我再進一步請教，你們現在追加了250億裡面的堰塞湖整治要花107億，請問堰塞湖你們現在打算怎麼整治？過去一直告訴大家堰塞湖因為沒有「跤路」可以進去，其實處理上是有一定的困難度，那現在粗匡了107億，請問是要怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：農業部在樺加沙颱風造成的損害這部分，我們大概編了59億左右，其中有一部分天然災害的是用原來天然災害救助基金，所以實際會請增的部分大概是將近三十幾億到四十億左右，並沒有像剛才委員所提到的。","但是整個馬太鞍從上游的壩體到下游的部分，上游的壩體現在非常不穩定，雖然它的溢流是相當穩定的，但是壩體不穩定，邊坡也容易崩塌。"],["邱委員議瑩：這個責任分工是在你農業部，還是水利署能夠協助？因為治水的這件事情，應該不是你農業部主責吧？不是你的專業強項吧？"],["陳部長駿季：壩體的部分是我們來協助，但是下游的這些堤防加高跟水道疏洪的部分是由水利署來負責，我們是跨部會合作的。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們有組一個專家學者共同來做這個……"],["陳部長駿季：有，我們有跨部會的專業小組。"],["邱委員議瑩：這個專業小組的召集人是誰？會不會是李鴻源教授？"],["陳部長駿季：應該不是。"],["邱委員議瑩：應該不是？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們有另外再組一個小組？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為跨部會我們有所謂的專家小組，那專家小組像臺大的團隊，還有陽明交大的團隊跟成大團隊都會進來當作專家諮詢的部分，但是整個決議的部分還是由我們的跨部會小組來處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：陳部長，剛剛跟您提問的這些部分，因為在這一次的花蓮馬太鞍溪溢流的事件其實相當嚴重，土石流警戒的警訊發布，很多人不當作一回事。像我們南部如果有收到，大家都會當作一回事，我們大家就會開始注意，然後開始準備要疏散、撤離。","現在你們土石流警戒的發布，如果過去這一段時間，大家並不引以為意的話，我覺得應該要再重新制定一個標準，執行面能夠怎麼做，做到什麼樣的程度，我覺得政府單位應該要及時掌控。龔部長，包括水利單位對於河流河川的流速、對河川的掌控、河道水位的高低等這些掌控程度，我覺得應該要藉由現在最新的高科技監控系統，把它做一個重新的整治，這應該放在你們特別條例的預算裡頭，去做一個重新的盤點，這一點我希望兩個部會都能做到，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我簡單跟委員報告，就是您剛才講的疏散的部分，像昨天在花蓮的前進協調所，季總協調官已經強調整個疏散撤離計畫，中央部會都已經做了協助，然後現在等待花蓮縣政府，縣長核定了以後，就會做相關的演練，因為唯有演練，才能讓居民更早因應，若遇到相關的警戒發布以後，能夠迅速的做疏散作為，這是第一個部分。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果他們不懂的話，可以請他們來請教高雄市，可能不需要去請教到陳市長，來問我就可以了。疏散撤離我們其實都有一套很完整的SOP，而且非常精準的掌控撤離的這些民眾到底去了哪裡、住在哪裡，這些保全戶的範圍之內多久要巡邏一次，這些SOP如果不懂的話，其實是可以來請教本席。","部長，我覺得你們也可以把我們過去在高雄做的這一些很精準的撤離動作，弄一份報告給指揮官，弄一份報告給花蓮縣政府，若這還要等他們的縣長批，我看這個臉大概也拉不下來，我覺得就強制去做這樣的要求，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，了解。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實我本來有一個問題要問，可以嗎？兩位部長請回。請能源署，能源署今天有沒有來？不好意思，主席給我2分鐘，很快。","能源署，你們防災微電網跟移動式電源的這個計畫，上一次被要求要提書面報告嘛，所以現在重新提出，我看到在特別預算底下，你們只編列了8億元來做防災微電網，你覺得這個錢夠嗎？"],["李署長君禮：不夠，我們希望能更多，但是因為目前只有8億，所以我們未來會把它編入經常性的預算。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，那你目前只有8億，你預計要做在哪裡？因為我看你寫的報告是要求地方政府提報場域，然後由台電去技術支援，有沒有可能能源署可以自己主動？比如說在山區的地方，高雄的桃源、那瑪夏、茂林地區，山區每次受創嚴重的時候，當路斷掉、橋斷掉，你的救災、你的台電工程車其實是進不去的，所以你的韌性防災微電網能不能主動去盤查？然後在山區，我們就立刻來把韌性防災電網做起來。"],["李署長君禮：可以，但是我們一方面也要跟地方政府、偏遠的鄉鎮公所來配合，因為他們最知道他們未來要把人撤到哪裡去，基本上，我們會先尊重它，那如果它不提的話，我們會替它來安排跟做建議。"],["邱委員議瑩：署長，我認為你們的防災微電網其實還有很多精進的空間，包括是不是能夠跟做微電網的這些業者、做儲能設備的這些業者，去做一些會談，去設計更適合在當地的設備，比如說可移動式的儲電系統，屋頂的太陽能是不是家家戶戶都能夠建置到一定的程度？能夠提供一定電力度數的這些太陽能板？其實山上的居民，他不一定是要被撤離，但是只要遇到電線桿斷掉，停電的時候，整個電力供給出問題的時候，我覺得移動式的這些儲能系統，應該會在那時候發揮相當大的功能，這個可不可以請你們再去研究一下，好嗎？"],["李署長君禮：好，我們可以照這個方向再去規劃一下。謝謝。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：請陳亭妃委員質詢。","拜託議瑩代理主席，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":188,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-2","speakers":["陳亭妃","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯很快的掌握所有的"},{"start":78.865,"end":101.412,"text":"這個不合格產品的流向以這一次的事件為例我們很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰場是不是合法然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡然後銷售可能到哪裡去可以快速的回應最源頭的那個地方對不對我們都像從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主"},{"start":106.673,"end":132.15,"text":"但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊那就是案發了嘛那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告但是我在確認是全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商"},{"start":136.793,"end":139.898,"text":"以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬"},{"start":142.582,"end":168.739,"text":"那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的"},{"start":169.159,"end":196.244,"text":"具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是"},{"start":197.124,"end":222.945,"text":"我们在这个事件之后就扩大市场查核所以全国各县市卫生局都在市场上进行抽验还有业者也都去集合到目前为止是检验出来的产品我现在听到你的人力然后versus这个所有厂商我知道一定是不够所以你是一定要有一些重点那一般是四年一次其实很久了那你说现在有高风险这个食品清单所以"},{"start":224.446,"end":240.76,"text":"我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講審計部的報告有提到當然部分事件查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補時他認為你們人力是不夠的"},{"start":244.463,"end":266.058,"text":"那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部講的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾結跟"},{"start":266.798,"end":286.976,"text":"整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚"},{"start":287.777,"end":311.194,"text":"不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫的這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商"},{"start":315.737,"end":336.725,"text":"那請問部長 食藥署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍 差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心喔"},{"start":338.566,"end":362.729,"text":"跟委員報告 因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這一次的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核"},{"start":363.189,"end":385.749,"text":"那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他double counting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物業者登錄平台"},{"start":388.391,"end":407.506,"text":"食品本身食品有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速"},{"start":408.925,"end":423.829,"text":"比少於營業稅籍登記的加速喔或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記卻沒有在這個平台有登記喔那同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號請問消息署你們怎麼來改善這些資料呢"},{"start":427.01,"end":443.639,"text":"跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以呢我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一里路最後一里路"},{"start":444.059,"end":458.676,"text":"部長 審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發 使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向"},{"start":459.076,"end":486.119,"text":"那還差那一點我們會繼續來努力來折承這個衛生局最後有一個是勾基剛剛您說的那個是勾基登錄的勾基就是他的稅政機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料一樣上次我請您跟這個家族簽手的意思一樣大家都不簽手那以今年來講勾基出來這71萬家裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致"},{"start":487.14,"end":510.305,"text":"所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的 審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年 仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大我想他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線是不是"},{"start":512.725,"end":522.608,"text":"如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口"},{"start":527.35,"end":550.172,"text":"那部長這個食安重要 那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品也是一樣有關永豐市民食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉 出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎"},{"start":552.967,"end":566.106,"text":"有看過報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物"},{"start":569.481,"end":586.797,"text":"雜質 藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件 但是藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢 還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業 報告量很高啊"},{"start":589.528,"end":606.007,"text":"要比本身欸 一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下 委員指出的這一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年 我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討 我們看到的是過去的檢討的"},{"start":607.749,"end":633.118,"text":"過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPIC GMP的藥廠之下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是不是你在實藥署去年2月那你還沒有上任去永豐檢查時他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含複說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施"},{"start":633.778,"end":647.173,"text":"那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法 不好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實境改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告"},{"start":649.736,"end":674.082,"text":"那邊我們看到相關的文字後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的他的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率PIXGMP常常頻率會不會加強他的頻率會繼續調整那我再簡單問兩個問題這個部長在裁罰方面或是署長除了勒令停業請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定法源依據在哪裡罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎永豐罰了多少錢"},{"start":675.735,"end":696.245,"text":"這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再回後再跟你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌 這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能 可怕你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措你知道嘛那這樣的話 那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶"},{"start":700.987,"end":722.012,"text":"11億很多患病 癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長 累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產 撤照 一個門檻黑名單名單或是說他累犯很危險而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的"},{"start":723.775,"end":743.2,"text":"無預警的查核你告訴他然後你去查都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員 建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請把資料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席 謝謝署長 部長謝謝陳偉 學部長 署長 請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":81,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時15分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，我不會要求你背「食安五環」，但姜署長當然要背清楚，源頭管理、重建生產管理……"],["石部長崇良：源頭管理，然後整合產、製、銷的生產鏈。"],["陳委員昭姿：加強查驗、加重惡意廠商的責任及全民監督。"],["石部長崇良：對！"],["陳委員昭姿：但是食安五環看起來一再證明失靈了！部長，它失靈了！不論是巴西蛋或是去年蘇丹紅的辣椒粉，還是這次的黑心腸事件，衛福部沒能在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖源頭，而是由民眾的檢舉及媒體的爆料才啟動這件事情，所以部長認不認為、同不同意五環現在是失靈中？五環現在是形同虛設？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們對食安部分確實還有努力的空間，來確保國人的食用安全，不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果，讓我們很容易可以追蹤、追溯，很快地掌握所有不合格產品的流向。以這一次事件為例，我們很快就可以掌握它的上游、它的屠宰場是不是合法，然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡、銷售可能到哪裡去，可以快速地回應。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。但是最源頭的那個地方，對不對？我們都希望能從源頭開始，您本身唸醫療嘛……"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：大概都從源頭開始，這個五環還是在後面的應變，您剛才報告也是以發生問題的時候，怎麼處理為主，但是我們還是希望這個食安五環能夠work，請問……"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們會去加強，像……"],["陳委員昭姿：這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊！"],["石部長崇良：對、對！我們不諱言……"],["陳委員昭姿：我的意思是案發了……"],["石部長崇良：是、是。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問部長，你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎？"],["石部長崇良：有、有！"],["陳委員昭姿：有看過，很好。我幾個問題請教部長，剛剛你是報告，但我再確認一次，全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人？"],["石部長崇良：463。"],["陳委員昭姿：463人，他們要負責稽查多少的廠商？"],["石部長崇良：以目前我們合格登記的食品業者，大概是71萬。"],["陳委員昭姿：你覺得這樣的稽查人力夠嗎？"],["石部長崇良：以去年為例，他是稽查大概16萬家次，如果我們用簡單的數學來算的話，大概差不多四年會稽查一次。"],["陳委員昭姿：會被稽查一次。"],["石部長崇良：不過，因為現在的食品廠需要符合GHP的規範，所以它的稽查可能有一些是屬於我們叫作專案稽查的為多，就是對於比較高風險的、具風險性的會加強查核，倒不會全部都是random去做。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，您談到高風險，所以有高風險名單嗎？"],["石部長崇良：有、有！"],["陳委員昭姿：你有高風險名單，有名單？"],["石部長崇良：對！"],["陳委員昭姿：這次黑心腸有在高風險名單裡面嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這一次的這個廠商……"],["陳委員昭姿：有沒有在高風險名單裡面？"],["石部長崇良：這一個廠商是沒有在……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們是以廠商為名單？"],["石部長崇良：對、對！有的是項目、有的是廠商。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是以項目，但是……"],["石部長崇良：這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有在裡面，現在案發以後會進去了，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：我們在事件之後就擴大市場查核，所以全國各縣市衛生局都在市場上進行抽驗，還有也都去稽核業者，到目前為止，檢驗出來的產品都沒有殘留。"],["陳委員昭姿：我現在聽到你的人力，然後versus所有的廠商，我知道一定不夠，所以你一定要有一些重點。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：一般是四年一次，其實也很久了，你說現在有高風險的食品清單，所以我們再來了解，今天也許沒這麼多時間，你們是怎麼建立的？已經發生重大案件，是不是當然就列入，然後稽核的頻率等等……"],["石部長崇良：對、對！"],["陳委員昭姿：我這樣問是因為審計部的報告有提到「部分市縣查驗稽查人員尚有缺額待補實，食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦在稽查高風險項目」，他認為你們人力是不夠的喔！這是審計部說的，對吧？食藥署，請問審計部提出這樣報告，您有什麼想法嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們非常感謝審計部的指導。原則上高風險，尤其是化學物質高風險，我們在食品雲裡面的勾稽及整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項，這些已經列進去，這一次的H₂O₂事件裡面，雙氧水其實是非常、非常簡單的，它是在食品添加物裡面稱為殺菌劑，所以它是可用的，但食品級跟工業級我們切得很清楚，不能夠使用的就不能使用，這家業者明知不可使用而使用。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，你、我的背景都知道等級、級數的意思。"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是因為審計部已經寫得這麼清楚了，所以你未來會怎麼做？"],["姜署長至剛：針對高風險的化學物質，我們其實是做所謂的業者勾稽，跟過去的……"],["陳委員昭姿：稽核頻率要增加。"],["姜署長至剛：有必要去做更精準的……所以在人工智慧導入的部分，我們其實在每年……"],["陳委員昭姿：人力不夠你就要想方設法再來看看，盯住這些廠商嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問部長，食藥署公布流向花了兩天，中央與地方的數據差了六百多公斤，部長說是重複計算，但我覺得這已經不是算術問題，而是一個食安的信任問題，因為身為最高主管機關，連追查流向都出現差了一倍的數字，民眾會不安心。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，因為一開始當然都要跟……這次的產品……"],["陳委員昭姿：六百多公斤耶！"],["石部長崇良：這次的產品是這樣，它的公司登記是在臺北市、倉儲是在新北市、工廠加工是在屏東縣，所以它有跨縣市，那我們追蹤它的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核，一開始是以它的出貨為主，但是它double counting，所以後來根據金流才確認，大概是這樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：你有解釋，所以雲很重要嘛！聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：根據食安法規定，業者要保留這些資訊，跟藥品的概念一樣，保留產品、供應商供貨、進貨、產品流向、出貨等資訊，食藥署也有建立食品藥物業者登錄平台……"],["石部長崇良：它的來源及出處都要記錄。"],["陳委員昭姿：食品本身也有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統。但是我們再來談，審計部查核後發現，部分縣市沒有適時查證並輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發票……我把他講的重點講完以後，我再請部長或署長回答；部分縣市業者在平台登錄字號家數少於營業稅籍登記家數，或是在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製造工廠，卻沒有在這個平台登記，甚至同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號，請問食藥署署長，你們怎麼改善這些資料呢？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，追蹤、追溯很重要，所以我們這幾年一直努力用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤，目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報，所以這個還有最後一哩路要把它做成。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，審計部會寫出來就是要你們有警訊。"],["石部長崇良：對，就是還有一點點，剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或使用電子發票，讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向，那還差那一點，我們會繼續來努力責成衛生局……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，審計部……"],["石部長崇良：最後有一個是勾稽，剛剛您說的是勾稽，登錄的勾稽就是稅徵機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料要一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：一樣嘛！就是不牽手嘛！上次我請您跟姜署長牽手的意思一樣，大家都不牽手。"],["石部長崇良：對、對、對，以今年來講，勾稽出來這71萬家……"],["陳委員昭姿：地方、中央不牽手，上游與下游不牽手。"],["石部長崇良：裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致，所以我們每年會有這樣的勾稽方式再去……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不是我說的，審計部的報告也說源頭控管是失效的，政府建置化學雲8年，仍然沒辦法與其他系統連線起來，化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對，以至於讓工業級雙氧水流入食品製程。部長，其實民眾不是很挑剔的，我覺得民眾對政府包容度很大，他們只是想安心地吃一碗大腸麵線，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：如今，每年都有重大食安事件發生，而且不只一樁，顯示現有的制度是失靈的，所以我們希望中央與地方要聯防，不要各自為政，應該馬上補破口。"],["石部長崇良：會。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，食安重要，藥品也是一樣。"],["石部長崇良：食安，我感同身受，以這一次的大腸，我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到……"],["陳委員昭姿：您第一次就任部長就遇到……"],["石部長崇良：所以我深深地體會這個全民非常關注，所以絕對是嚴懲不貸。"],["陳委員昭姿：現在其他訊息太多，否則這個是大焦點喔！","同樣是藥品，有關永豐生理食鹽水的監察報告出爐了，請問部長跟署長看過了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["姜署長至剛：有看過。"],["陳委員昭姿：有看過，好，報告指出近十年間，先扣除藥品本身以外的，像扣除包裝異常、藥品標示錯誤或是醫事人員操作不當，可是永豐本身生產的藥品發生混入異物、雜質、藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌疑慮，其藥品不良品的通報高達71件，但是食藥署好像沒有接獲這個報告呢？還是接了這個報告，但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業？報告量很高啊！藥品本身耶！"],["石部長崇良：我請姜署長說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題，很可怕！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告一下，委員指出的這項議題，我們都有看到報告裡面的內涵，所以我從今年2月份來之後，我其實逐項檢討，我們看到的是，過去檢討的過程當中有很多值得我們精進，所以我們確定現在在任何的GMP、PIC/S GMP的藥廠底下，我們絕對不能夠允許……"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是，當然不管是不是你已經……食藥署去年2月，你還沒有上任，去永豐檢查時就認定永豐……下面是食藥署的文字，「多次函復說辭均未能反駁稽查所見缺失情形，也沒有積極改進措施。」這是不是代表食藥署現行的查廠頻率或是要求廠商限期提出具體改善做法根本還是沒有辦法？沒用嘛！還是無法有效地掌握藥廠的實際改善情形，你們自己這樣寫喔！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，那邊我們看到相關的文字，後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的，他的頻率就不是一般常態性的頻率、PIC/S GMP廠的頻率，會加強其頻率、會積極調整。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個食安五環一樣，我再簡單問兩個問題，部長或是署長，在裁罰方面，除了勒令停業，請問署長，永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢？誰做的決定？法源依據在哪裡？罰了多少錢，我可以知道嗎？永豐罰了多少錢？沒有罰錢是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員要報告一下，確切的罰錢的部分，我是沒有辦法一下回答，會後我再跟您說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你會後給我。因為造成全國醫療恐慌，這個金額足以反映嗎？我在想你們可能都沒有罰錢，而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億，後來第二年的穩定專案，我想石部長您知道，這樣的話，這筆錢其實很多人在等，11億，很多罕病、癌症病人都在等這筆錢，那你就準備要讓他再繼續犯這個錯嗎？所以這是累犯的部分，我希望部長、署長，累犯的部分是不是要訂定累犯停產、撤照的門檻或黑名單，或是他累犯很危險，而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水，你是不是要做無預警的查核，你告訴他，然後你去查都只查到這樣子，你無預警的查核會發現更多的真相，我覺得這個部分是……"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員的建議，我們會把他納入處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：有關於查核懲罰的部分，會後請提供資料讓我做參考。"],["石部長崇良：處分的部分的詳細情形，我們再跟委員提供。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝，謝謝主席，謝謝署長、部長。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長、署長，請回。","接下來林月琴委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}