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攸關發現金的韌性特別預算第二題是114年度附屬單位預算第三題是115年度總預算第四題是涉及中央對地方一般性補助款及計劃型補助款的財劃法修正案"},{"start":1986.687,"end":2013.598,"text":"那另外要跟各位跟預算無關的是第五題有關公民複決本院通過選罷法的複決公投案中選會含請本院來提出意見書再者我們依序進行協商現在進行第一題的協商第一題協商的提案以國防部提案最多所以本席在這裡建議我們先從通案開始"},{"start":2014.54,"end":2043.619,"text":"然後再進行各部會由於海洋事務委員會管主委辦公室是在高雄所以我們特別體諒我們管主委還有舟車上銷後的時間我們把海洋事務委員會提為第一案那將它審完以後主委可以回到高雄去上班這一點各位黨團幹部有意見嗎沒有好那謝謝大家的配合那現在我來開始介紹各位列席的官員首先介紹行政院主席長陳主席長好 歡迎您"},{"start":2044.82,"end":2058.108,"text":"財政部莊部長 歡迎您內政部劉部長 歡迎您教育部鄭部長 歡迎您經濟部龔部長 歡迎您老動部洪部長 歡迎農業部陳部長 歡迎您衛福部池部長"},{"start":2073.007,"end":2087.743,"text":"衛福部時務部長 沒關係 我們可以等一下海洋委員會的管主委 歡迎您現在我們開始進行第一題的協商通案開始國防部顧部長 歡迎您"},{"start":2103.956,"end":2123.187,"text":"好 我們現在通過第一個組決議部分大家有沒有寶貴意見請行政部門表示請問國民黨團提案有沒有寶貴意見行政部門說明一下"},{"start":2135.998,"end":2148.268,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2150.749,"end":2175.806,"text":"陳主席長請問有沒有寶貴意見這個部分就是我們有跟國民黨團有報告過就是這個改善報告是不是改成改善書面報告那這個黨團也同意這個部分是不是國民黨團有沒有寶貴意見我們就修正通過好 謝謝我們進入第二案"},{"start":2177.185,"end":2186.296,"text":"主決議 各位委員 各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見來 請行政院表達意見"},{"start":2188.755,"end":2216.238,"text":"好 請 洪部長請好 那個第二案主決議這個是高金委員跟國民黨團的提案那主要是針對這個我們支持勞工安定就業的部分那只是因為我們其實在特別條例裡面其實寫得很清楚其實這一次在特別預算裡面編列支持勞工安定就業主要是因應關稅跟國際情勢的不確定性"},{"start":2217.159,"end":2243.119,"text":"那但是這個高進委員的這個提案他比較是針對在0403跟馬太安的艷澀湖的霸體之後族人的就業的狀況那所以高進委員是希望說我們要把原住民青年的就業計畫跟臨時上工納入在這個特別預算的執行範圍裡面可是這可能會跟我們在特別條例裡面框定的這個"},{"start":2244.62,"end":2271.489,"text":"支持勞工安定就業的前提是不太一樣的可是高金委員其實期待的援助民族青年就業跟臨時上工計畫這個事情我們一定會做我們本來就會做只是不一定是一定要把它擺在特別預算的範疇裡面來做所以我們是提了一個修正案是希望說可不可以在第二段的部分改成援請相關主管機關也就是勞動部那應辦理輔助援助民族青年就業及"},{"start":2272.969,"end":2292.882,"text":"臨時上工等項目 那納入執行項目的這六個字可以拿掉納入執行項目 因為這邊寫納入執行項目的意思高進委員應該是要指說納入這個特別預算的裡面其實這在我們平常的計畫裡面我們就會做那第三行有一個同時要求於特別預算執行期間"},{"start":2293.863,"end":2320.545,"text":"把这个要求特别预算执行期间这几个字也可以删掉因为如果它在我们常态性的计划里面我们就会做的话就不用限制一定要在特别预算的执行期间所以我们其实是有一个这样子的修正是希望能够来取得国民党团跟高金委员的同意那这我们会做只是跟我们一开始特别预算设定这个劳工安定就业的名目可能是比较不符合的这样子"},{"start":2320.965,"end":2347.647,"text":"好 謝謝洪部長的說明副總統請坐那請沛翔副署長請說明同意好 國民黨團同意那我們就修正通好 謝謝那你把書面資料拿過來其實就劃掉這六個字嘛劃掉納入執行項目還有要求於特別預算執行期間這兩個字然後第二段的第一個有一個應將寫著應辦理我們就直接就是辦理了麻煩把書面資料拿過來謝謝洪部長請拿過來 謝謝"},{"start":2352.93,"end":2366.809,"text":"好 我們第二案我們就修正通過我們現在進入第三案主決議好 麻煩請行政院說明"},{"start":2379.642,"end":2393.63,"text":"請經濟部請這個案子就照辦理好 謝謝經濟部意見經濟部照辦好 我們第三案就照案通過第四個組決議台灣民眾黨團所提出"},{"start":2399.685,"end":2419.62,"text":"那也請行政院來說明 謝謝報告院長遵照辦理好 謝謝行政院照辦我們第四案以主決於照案通過我們現在進入第一款我們調整一下請海洋事務委員會各位黨團幹部容我再提醒大家一下我們先把次序調為第一個海洋事務委員會"},{"start":2425.067,"end":2427.989,"text":"麻煩請海洋事務委員和管主委請說明各位委員請聽管主委說明 謝謝"},{"start":2442.508,"end":2467.526,"text":"非常謝謝院長能夠給予海洋委員會有機會提前來做預算的審查那特別說明的是海委會總共相關的案件包括有第170億案第170億案是翁曉琳委員等五位委員的提案那是針對我們在國家海洋研究院裡面所編列的10億9930萬元"},{"start":2471.468,"end":2496.058,"text":"要做有關於海洋的地形、海床、地質以及災害潛勢跟水溫監測之用那因為有關於我們的海洋的科學的調查跟研究一直都處於非常荒蕪的階段而鄰近的國家卻比我們更了解我們的海洋"},{"start":2496.698,"end":2512.733,"text":"所以這個計畫有必要非常急迫的趕快來展開而且它也是我們國土防衛當中很重要的一環那非常感謝溫委員接受我們的說明那這個案和溫委員這裡"},{"start":2514.374,"end":2531.179,"text":"達成的最後的一個決議是凍結1億元然後我們在每一個會期都以書面報告來提供執行的進度跟成果報告這是第171案謝謝 那個海洋事務委員會翁委員請發言"},{"start":2541.123,"end":2556.799,"text":"海洋研究院剛剛也來跟我討論這個案子那我要特別強調就是說其實我是很支持海洋研究院所做的這個相關研究計畫但是呢這個坦白說不應該是要編列在特別預算裡面也希望未來海委會能夠"},{"start":2557.5,"end":2576.815,"text":"以年度常態性的預算去支持海洋研究院所做的相關的研究那這一次因為考慮到就是說他們這個海洋監測的一些急迫性那我這邊就是勉勉與同意那希望他們能夠按照我們這個所討論的結果來執行好 謝謝翁委員的補充說明我們請台灣民眾黨黃總召請說明"},{"start":2580.254,"end":2594.65,"text":"謝謝院長因為討論到海洋研究院的部分跟我們後面跟管主委這邊所下的同一個科目項目的174案有重疊我想說就一併表達意見就是說"},{"start":2596.81,"end":2611.496,"text":"針對國家海洋研究院的這件事情台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們基本上是採取支持的立場所以當初在修法的過程當中我們也積極的表達我們的看法提供一些法律上面的修正的建議給海委會做參考"},{"start":2613.937,"end":2636.284,"text":"只不過說我們現在在討論 在處理 在審議的是因應國際情勢的一個特別預算它不是一般 年度的公務預算因此我們當看到在國家海洋研究院裡面就針對有關於海洋水文監測監測能量等等的一些"},{"start":2637.785,"end":2653.159,"text":"預算編高達十億的時候我們其實有一點驚訝驚訝的理由不是說這些事情不應該做而是本來國家海洋研國家海洋研究院裡面他們本來的業務範圍其實在COVER就處理這樣的事情"},{"start":2654.215,"end":2681.716,"text":"但是現在本來應該要編列在國家海洋研究院裡面它每一年它業務範圍要去處理的事情現在突然用一個特別預算的方式去cover這個工作項目就會導致到說現在一般的預算跟現在的特別預算全部掛在國家海洋研究院下面那你所要執行的工作跟它本來的業務跟任務範圍是一樣的情況之下"},{"start":2682.877,"end":2697.368,"text":"出現了這樣子的一個特別預算要去做它本來就應該要做的事情跟年度預算彼此之間的關係還有跌床駕屋老實說讓我們對於這一項的預算要全數的予以支持"},{"start":2698.189,"end":2718.123,"text":"是沒有辦法所以我們才在174案當中提案減列2億元我們也希望因為如果是按照預算法一般的法則的話其實應該要全數刪掉因為這本來就應該要回到一般的年度預算去處理的這總會變成是國家海航研究院"},{"start":2719.059,"end":2743.762,"text":"他自己本來的任務範圍在沒有特別預算的情況之下用年度預算沒有辦法去執行這個部分先提出來跟院長還有讓其他黨團來代表好 謝謝黃總召的說明各位黨團幹部我們現在171號我們先確定管主委的發言還有翁委員發言我們就有凍結一改提出書面報告 好吧如果大家有沒有意見 171"},{"start":2746.013,"end":2759.127,"text":"沒有沒有沒有先171好不好沒問題那我們第一171我們再講一遍我們凍結一議員然後提出書面報告修正通過沒問題好我們進入172改組決議各位有沒有意見沒意見172通過改組決議修正通過173"},{"start":2766.291,"end":2792.828,"text":"173的話 國民黨團所提案 管主委請說明好嗎謝謝 剛剛羅委員有跟羅委員報告就是說第173案跟羅委員溝通以後羅委員是指示我們說凍結兩千萬元但是以專案報告那因為考量到就是說專案報告是涉及跨委員會的聯席會議那未來要排案的時候可能就會比較複雜"},{"start":2793.849,"end":2820.618,"text":"那另外就是今天到目前為止我們所有的凍結案在海委會的部分都是用書面報告所以剛剛有跟羅委員請示說那能不能就是說我們也比較像剛剛171案所做的決議我們以每個會期都用書面報告來說明當會期那個階段的進度用這樣的方式來處理不曉得羅委員是不是能夠同意"},{"start":2821.464,"end":2842.574,"text":"謝謝管主委說明那羅委員現在就是海洋事務委員會羅主委表達了就是凍結兩千萬元然後每一個會期提出一次書面報告您有沒有意見沒意見好那我們就修正通過現在進入剛才黃國昌總召所關切的第174案黃國昌總召已經表達意見請管主委請說明"},{"start":2844.595,"end":2871.258,"text":"謝謝黃主席的指導那特別跟大會報告也跟黃委員特別說明就是說我們常常會面臨這種責難就是說你為什麼不是應該在本預算嗎但是跟各位委員報告就是說海委會它剛剛成立是一個新的機關那它成立的時候呢說實在的政府的預算非常的有限它沒有框給我們很多的預算"},{"start":2871.798,"end":2899.868,"text":"因此海委會在做全海域調查一年的預算只有五千萬元以下所以我們如果要做完我們的全海域調查大概要一百年我們才有能力去了解我們的海洋但是跟院長跟大家報告的是就像是我們今天都還去撿到鄰近國家的浮標也就是鄰近國家對於我們周邊海域的研究可以說是既深且廣"},{"start":2901.228,"end":2918.155,"text":"我這張圖只不過是以我們海巡署有爭獲的在台灣周邊的海域所做的40艘鄰近國家40艘科研船它的航機密密麻麻的在我們的海域做這種調研"},{"start":2919.395,"end":2935.615,"text":"可是我們真的是望陽星探我們能夠對我們的海域做調查要調查水文要調查所有的水文資料也好地形地質的資料也好我們幾乎都沒有預算我們一定要特別的去用"},{"start":2936.135,"end":2959.537,"text":"中長期的預算來做呢或者是像這樣好不容易我們有機會可以有特別預算而且基本上這個工作他在國安的層次也是屬於國土防衛當中對於我們海域意識的了解也就是MDA的了解很重要的一環所以真的是非常希望說能不能請一定不要再給我們刪減因為"},{"start":2961.218,"end":2980.645,"text":"要做這件事情我們大概評估起來要達到百億的預算多年的累積可能才有可能做好那好不容易我們能夠有這十億來開始它真的也有急迫性而且也是一個開始所以還是請大院能夠給我們支持"},{"start":2982.213,"end":3010.338,"text":"謝謝管主委的說明那台灣民眾黨 黃總召要再補充嗎好 請黃總召請我必須要再強調一次喔針對有關於海域環境監測的能量水文的監測 海洋的地形海礦的預警等等這些工作要做我們不否認台灣民眾黨立法院黨團也是支持的但是我們現在在處理的是特別預算"},{"start":3011.451,"end":3026.127,"text":"在國家海洋研究院裡面它所編的這個象下是國家海洋研究院它本來設立的宗旨包括剛剛管主委所講的非常多的內容當初這個條例我們會支持理由就在這個地方"},{"start":3027.148,"end":3040.255,"text":"我們現在在處理的不是國家海洋研究院它年度的預算是它特別的預算那你如果說應該要編在一般的預算裡面你本來就應該要做的事情這本來就是你的業務範圍"},{"start":3042.561,"end":3060.264,"text":"這本來就是你的業務範圍那你就應該要編在年度預算當中怎麼會用特別預算的方式來加以處理呢因為編不進去 真的沒有錢不是 那行政院整體上面預算到底要怎麼編不好意思齁從立法院上面的立場"},{"start":3062.096,"end":3090.77,"text":"我們只能夠省 只能夠刪 只能夠動但是這個業務就不是用本預算的業務即使說我們編在這裡他也必須要用中長期計畫特別的這個計畫性的預算因為我就針對有關於國家海洋研究院裡面你們在這個特別預算裡面所描述的工作內容跟我在看到你們年度的預算裡面所描述的工作內容基本上是高度重疊的"},{"start":3091.994,"end":3105.993,"text":"基本上是高度重疊所以 如果今天行政院在各個部會彼此之間的分配上面你是 不是在因應這個高關稅不是在因應這個什麼國際情勢強化而是國家海洋研究院裡面"},{"start":3107.014,"end":3136.124,"text":"你要有多少的capacity要做多少的事情本來就是業務上面要在做的在體制上面本來就應該要反映在年度預算當中你如果說今天是以用沒有錢當作理由或行政院沒有給你們這麼多額度來當作理由要塞在特別預算當中的話這恐怕不是我們當初設置這個特別條例處理這個特別的預算所要達成的目的好 謝謝黃總召發言我們請羅志強 羅書長請發言您稍待一下 管書會"},{"start":3137.694,"end":3164.296,"text":"我覺得基本上這顯現我們很多預算上的根本性矛盾為什麼因為坦白講今天這個特別預算它的源頭其實是對冷關稅風暴結果最後民進黨一直堅持要把很多所謂的防衛韌性加進來就出現今天剛剛這個情形當然如果說真的有急迫性按照預算法83條的一些急迫性的情況我們可以特別來考量可是我也必須講就是說"},{"start":3165.737,"end":3186.062,"text":"海洋這個研究院它這個項目我不敢講說沒有必要性沒有需要性但是它的急迫性在哪裡事實上你就發現它就沒有辦法去詮釋這件事那當然我們為了考量這個計畫本身還是有這個需要所以我是非常同意民眾黨它今天只是檢列兩億元"},{"start":3187.202,"end":3208.059,"text":"那你真的不夠的部分你想辦法在這個一般的預算在我們總預算或公務預算裡面你去把它編進去或者你即便是中長期的計畫你再想辦法去編進去我覺得總就是還是要回去回應一件根本的事因為這件事情坦白它本來就可以編在一般預算裡面那今天減列兩億元我覺得我們的海洋研究還是可以繼續執行計畫以上"},{"start":3210.013,"end":3227.095,"text":"這裡面我知道鍾委員您稍等這裡面就是一個弔詭因為因應了美國關稅所以提出了特別預算在特別預算海洋事務委員會突然發現他的海洋調查非常的重要那假設沒有關稅事情沒有特別預算那海洋事務委員會怎麼辦這變成一個大家在思考這個好 請鍾委員請"},{"start":3228.877,"end":3250.494,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想各黨的意見領袖都提出了這樣的看法那我想因為我們整個的特別預算它的特別條例的法源大概涵蓋了幾個部分首先因應國際情勢這個國際情勢當然美中關稅的談判是一個部分但是接下來要強化經濟社會"},{"start":3253.176,"end":3276.467,"text":"強化經濟社會及民生這個是沒有問題的還有國安任性那我想國安任性這個本來這個題目配上前面的因應國際情勢強化各黨有各黨的解讀但是總而言之在我們特別條例通過的同時其實各黨都有一個共識就是大家都有各取所需有人認為強調的是中美關稅的風暴"},{"start":3280.009,"end":3301.371,"text":"那麼這種情況之下要強化國內的經濟社會的韌性也有人認為這時候要顧及民生那當然國安韌性在這段時間也是非常的迫切需要所以其實在特別條例當時通過的時候我們這個題目名稱就涵蓋了這三個範圍所以因此是不是說如果以特別條例的性質"},{"start":3302.792,"end":3312.405,"text":"特別條例的性質已經涵蓋了這三個目的的話那符合這三種目的的特別預算的編列是應該是可以在我們本院的思考範圍內啦所以我想大家是兼容並蓄都兼採各黨側重的範圍那也很感謝在171案"},{"start":3319.614,"end":3340.631,"text":"包括國民黨跟翁小林委員對於同一筆預算他表達了可以以提出書面報告的方式然後再凍結一部分那我想是不是可以請求我們這個過程是不是各黨我們都是以包括國民黨翁小林委員的凍結數及書面報告來責成海委會對後續相關預算的執行我們來要求"},{"start":3349.257,"end":3376.438,"text":"那個現在館主委您稍微等一下你綜合大家的意見您再做最後一次發言好不好我們現在還有柯委員跟張委員要發言您稍待一下柯總統請主席各位同仁剛才有171案已經很清楚兩個案子完全一樣這樣兩個案子完全一樣結果出於不同的方式而且171案已經通過我在這裡拜託就是"},{"start":3379.075,"end":3383.02,"text":"你師父在意嘛 那副總召大家都不要堅持 就找171案好 張委員請"},{"start":3397.97,"end":3425.97,"text":"那個剛我們國昌總召有提的那個國家海洋研究院這個預算我們是會支持的不過我現在提一個有重疊的地方因為我在115年度的公務預算就是你送到我們立法院的預算書上面看到兩筆一筆是這個海洋科學跟資訊研究作業會編的一億九千多萬第二個就是海洋生態跟保育研究作業七千一百多萬這兩筆看起來都是重疊啦"},{"start":3427.713,"end":3430.756,"text":"所以整體這個十億九千多萬我們會支持可是我們建議把剛剛講的重疊加起來兩億把它刪掉避免重疊跟委員報告完全不一樣完全不一樣我們真的要做地震的研究真的是越拖又拖兩年"},{"start":3447.911,"end":3463.02,"text":"那個海底的地形、地質跟我們的地震的預測與了解息息相關我們現在幾乎是無知那我們還要繼續保持這種無知然後把它推遲一年又一年嗎"},{"start":3463.98,"end":3478.2,"text":"那我是不是因為今天我們院長有機會我們國海院院長有機會然後可以跟溫委員做非常仔細的說明那也得到溫委員的支持那能不能現在我們也請院長在這個場合"},{"start":3479.361,"end":3507.783,"text":"因為我今天有打電話但是委員不接我電話你就不接我電話啊那我是要跟我也希望跟貴黨我也希望趕快去貴黨做報告嘛那能不能就是說沒有聯繫上沒辦法做報告的這部分我們現在請我們國海院的陳院長來跟大家說明為什麼會那麼有急迫性好不好好 各位黨團各位我們請那個陳院長簡短二要說明一下海洋調查的它的急迫性好不好"},{"start":3508.764,"end":3528.622,"text":"好 陳院長請主席謝謝我想還是很謝謝翁委員最後對我們這個提案的一個支持那其實我們提的這個特別預算跟過去是不一樣的因為過去其實台灣做的海洋研究調查都比較是屬於船載式的是調查船出去的然後還有包括是屬於比較平面的"},{"start":3529.062,"end":3553.709,"text":"那我們現在目前這個特別預算呢會針對山尾的空間然後也會在海底裡面去佈陣這個所謂的那個海底的那個地震的儀器還有甚至所謂的水下的無人載具所以這一些的一個花費其實事實上是費用來講相對比較比我們以前所做的這種比較傳統的調查事實上費用是比較高昂的那過去以來剛剛成如我們主委提到的因為過去幾年以來大概預算大概一年大概五六千萬"},{"start":3554.449,"end":3579.966,"text":"那做的大概都是屬於我要講都是屬於平面或者近海式的空間那這次特別預算特別可以去補足我們比較屬於深海的還有比較外洋式的然後三維的空間那這部分當然是有它的一個必要性因為這部分的一個空間裡面的一個資訊確實現在是比較缺乏的那事實上主委當然有提到因為國海院的成立本身我們就有本身有這個義務也有這個使命要去做這個所謂全海域的一個調查"},{"start":3580.546,"end":3590.788,"text":"那我認為這是一般我們調查裡面的infrastructure就是一個基礎的一個設施那也希望說透過這樣子的一個特別預算裡面可以把這樣子的一個工作裡面兩年把它補齊 以上"},{"start":3593.447,"end":3618.314,"text":"謝謝陳院長很清楚的說明那各位黨團幹部現在我想海洋事務委員會也講得很清楚那個管主委還有話要補充嗎我是說那能不能就是說我們多凍結五千萬變成凍結一億五千萬然後讓我們提報告的時候我們還是每個會期都來提書面報告報告進度"},{"start":3619.814,"end":3648.213,"text":"能不能用這樣還是請民眾黨這邊是不是委員們是不是能夠給我們支持因為真的是很珍貴的預算沒問題 那個各位黨團幹部現在管主委的意思說第174案就是能不能改為凍結五千萬然後加每一個會期向我們立法院來做報告那這樣子各位黨團幹部針對這一點管主委所提的這個有沒有辦法接受還是要 那個羅委員請"},{"start":3650.474,"end":3674.883,"text":"我覺得兩邊是完全在不同的平行宇宙基本上並沒有否定今天這個海洋研究院講的所謂的必要性但是實質上我們也看到說過他也沒有所謂的今天你一定要編在特別預算裡面的急迫性跟所謂合於預算法第83條的理由那我覺得民眾黨今天這個提案我覺得已經是非常的折衷也周到了"},{"start":3675.623,"end":3698.768,"text":"因為國民黨本來的立場是認為說你這根本就應該放在所謂的那個一般的預算裡面所以是10億是全部減劣的但是小英委員是被說服嘛所以他改動解但是我覺得民眾黨的邏輯也很對啊基本上10億減劣2億元我覺得是合道理但是因為我認為這個已經沒有辦法達成共識了那不如就保留送院會表決嘛對 謝謝好 陳委員請 首先請"},{"start":3701.974,"end":3727.555,"text":"好 謝謝剛剛羅委員的說明但是我想我們有一個不同立場也許我可以提出疑問請院長再多說明確實剛剛在野黨團提的是認為這個跟國安任性沒有關係但是您剛剛的其實剛剛主委也已經說明那是不是可以請院長就您科學專業的角度告訴大家您剛剛所說的不管是深海的 外洋的 三維的或者是海底的部件甚至是水下無人載具"},{"start":3728.155,"end":3741.371,"text":"相關的研究跟後續持續計畫的推動跟這一次國安任性的部分的關聯可不可以幫我們說明一下也許我們有機會在不要保留的情況下說服這一黨委員好不好 謝謝好 陳院長請"},{"start":3744.624,"end":3761.073,"text":"謝謝 那因為在這個特別預算裡面我們特別會去針對那個海底有可能的陣緣去做一個調查那事實上最近之前發生的那個花蓮大地震那現在有點事後諸葛那現在事後諸葛你們是發現就是說它其實它的陣緣也是來自於東部的那個所謂的一個斷層"},{"start":3762.254,"end":3782.35,"text":"所以事實上如果說我們可以在這就整個的一個台灣市周圍的一個海域裡面對它可能的一個增援的一個偵測的話確實會對於我們整個國土還有包括在海在放的一個航舊裡面事實上是有很大的一個注意然後還有包括就是我們所做的這個水文的調查那水文就是一般我們講的海流海礦或者是溫研"},{"start":3783.191,"end":3812.123,"text":"那這些其實還有包括甚至包括以後的這個水下的一些深井的一個調查那這個都有可能跟水下的一個活動是有關係的那這個事實上在未來的一個國防的一個運用上都是有很大的一個一個不可或缺的一部分的一個很重要的一個資訊那我現在要強調就是說我們現在目前雖然國海院成立大概不到六年那整個現在目前的一個科研的工作也是持續在進行可是都是一部分一部分那現在還是比較是屬於平面性的一個空間比較屬於近海的"},{"start":3812.463,"end":3828.452,"text":"那我覺得我有透過這一次的一個預算裡面才有辦法去突破比較外揚的還有比較三維的一個空間以上不知道現在有沒有辦法說服再等對啦"},{"start":3834.051,"end":3863.631,"text":"委員請發言 柯總召請準備事實上照我們要鎖法 預算法第83條規定的特別預算老實講這本來這個項目就應該是回到公務預算這是第一個點那第二個我剛剛已經很明確跟你講你今年編來的815年的115明年的總預算裡面項目就是重疊項目都是一樣的嘛那本來老實講應該跟國民黨一樣應該是全三的我們今天已經非常的客氣我也認為說沒有錯這本來公務裡面有很多是要國安跟任性都要做嘛所以我們那個今天"},{"start":3864.951,"end":3880.799,"text":"小強比較善良 你說十億 不是十億欸十億九千多萬 十一億只刪了兩億欸好不好 那我們就堅持刪兩億啦 好不好那如果真的有意見 我們到院委會去處理我知道 我知道 不要急 好 我知道那個台灣民眾黨的堅持一樣 請柯總長請"},{"start":3884.195,"end":3909.351,"text":"也是不在意拜託不要堅持吧讓他鬧下去啦因為大家我很冷靜的聽大家講話都很尊重坦白講的話同一個事情有一個凍結有一個刪除嘛那針對管主委剛才提出來他很誠意啊那這部分都凍結五千萬嘛這樣是一個同一個邏輯在做事情嘛我在這裡懇切拜託"},{"start":3911.92,"end":3925.186,"text":"那好了 那我們本案就保留不要 拜託 拜託真的一保留我就會哭那個院長保留一表決一毛錢都沒了 院長 院長剛才委員 拜託你要順勢這樣弄過去你怎麼亂裁決了委員 拜託院長"},{"start":3932.409,"end":3946.721,"text":"院長那個是不是請周秘書長說明一下因為我在看周秘書長的大作國會運作實務其實因為這171案跟174案剛剛一開始就有跟院長主席提示說因為雖然他"},{"start":3948.342,"end":3963.91,"text":"它的指定的項目一個是對海洋委員會主管的預算進行檢列那一個是對海洋研究院的預算進行檢列但是我們看它的決議文的內容它是寫說"},{"start":3965.661,"end":3985.82,"text":"國家海洋研究院單位預算編列不宜再重複編列他這裡面講的就是指現在我們174案的這個預算那這個預算想的內容金額是一模一樣那我們在海洋委員會主管的預算當中針對翁曉琳委員的提案已經審議過是使凍結書面報告室的凍資"},{"start":3989.784,"end":4015.232,"text":"那我們現在呢到174案又對同一筆預算進行審議那如果說大家覺得對前面那個案子的凍結的額度有意見那麼剛剛管主也很誠懇的提出把額度提高但是如果說同一個預算科目我們做出了兩個不同的決議一個做出是凍結一個是做成的簡列那這恐怕在我們秘書長的意識學上是不是可以用考量一下好 謝謝嘉秘委"},{"start":4015.892,"end":4030.04,"text":"我們請財務會的林專務委員跟大家報告說明一下不一樣的地方報告各位委員171案他是提案委員是針對主管當然他內容裡面有提到簡列"},{"start":4031.517,"end":4049.006,"text":"國家海洋研究院的相關研究經費它原來是全數檢列然後另外還有凍結海巡署的部分那目前174是針對海洋研究院的這個部分減了2億那其實 雖然它"},{"start":4050.246,"end":4064.98,"text":"我們在做的時候那是我們幫忙整理出來的匯增表所以我們把它列為第二項就是第九款的第二項我們把它列出來但是其實在我認知預算是不是有一事不在意這個好像在學理上是有爭議的我自己是這麼認為"},{"start":4066.101,"end":4071.067,"text":"我先覺得還是要倒帶一下因為實際上剛開始在講171的時候我們黃國昌委員就已經講說要一併除174但是"},{"start":4082.259,"end":4087.861,"text":"因為我們認知他還是可以做兩邊來分開處理所以當時並不是在處理把這兩個案子併起來處理因為是後來的大家討論的是分開來先討論17再討論17所以不是171結束以後14不在1就延展到174所以我認為這個部分並不是因為當時黃國昌委員就已經講要把174放進來"},{"start":4102.907,"end":4125.587,"text":"可是我們認為說他有些性質上的不同所以拆開17174所以在這邊我就不認為有疑似不在意的那個問題出現更何況疑似不在意 是不是私用那是另外一個爭議好 請黃總召請我們之前在處理預算的時候本來就是尊重各個提案委員一個案子一個案子去做處理過去向來都是這樣子"},{"start":4126.756,"end":4138.181,"text":"剛剛在處理翁委員的案子的時候我其實已經是基於善意我主動說了說好像跟174有關係所以我也在那個時候把我的理由都說明完了"},{"start":4139.011,"end":4167.045,"text":"接下來至於議事上面是不是要171 174合併處理還是接著順序171 172 173 174這樣處理其實我們沒有多說什麼都是尊重韓院長議事上面的主持所以如果說現在用一事不在意來當作理由或者是當作處理的基準化台灣民眾黨黨團沒有辦法接受未來為了避免類似的爭議再度發生我們是不是要先確認"},{"start":4168.286,"end":4190.994,"text":"接下來所有預算的提案單我們是要用什麼邏輯處理是一案一案一案處理還是把所有相同的案子統整好了以後有牽涉到相同的項目結的部分然後我們到時候討論的時候合併起來討論這個我們都尊重韓樂廠的議事主持謝謝黃國昌總召的清楚的說明柯總早請"},{"start":4193.213,"end":4217.535,"text":"我發現我們大家講的都很認真在這個議題上互相在討論請我做對面的副總召講一句話嘛這個應該不要再副總召你發言是希望副總召講話你應該講你自己要講的重點這我發現解套了吧OK 副總召發言的重點是希望副總召講兩句副總召你講的話我們再請管主委請"},{"start":4223.342,"end":4250.469,"text":"謝謝韓院長柯總召其實我在靜觀我都尊重每個委員所發表的意見但現在有一個小小的爭議確實如黃總召所說過去每一個委員的提案或是不同政黨的提案都是逐案來審查並沒有先由議事處把指向同一個案子都要合併起來"},{"start":4253.049,"end":4267.179,"text":"並案一起來審查過去比較沒有這樣的一個情況那至於呢這個是不是適用預算法83條我想這個大家的意見應該是一致的"},{"start":4268.171,"end":4281.55,"text":"那我想這個難得今天海院長在這個問題上詢問了這麼多次但我想還是我們還是尊重一下請那個海委會管主委是不是在跟這個黃總召"},{"start":4284.728,"end":4302.763,"text":"有善意的溝通我想什麼事大家很明確的在不違法的情況之下大家都可以討論那我想這個韓院長既然要我發言柯總長那你才是你才是同意他所請所以"},{"start":4304.384,"end":4322.637,"text":"所以現在我是覺得說大家氣氛也不錯啦那黃總召還有這個張幹事長沒關係 我想我們都尊重了我們都尊重 好謝謝 如果提醒一下我們還有100多個案我們請崑澤委員發言完畢管主委做最後說明"},{"start":4324.318,"end":4348.203,"text":"謝謝何院長其實我剛才聽不論是國民黨或是說民眾黨其實他們都是支持這筆預算只是說有在爭議說那是要列入特別預算呢還是說列入在年度的預算裡面那我想說既然已經列到我們這個任性特別預算裡面那剛剛這個國民黨的翁小林委員他其實也同意用凍結的方式要書面報告的方式來做處理"},{"start":4348.963,"end":4364.517,"text":"我剛才聽管主委講其實剛剛張委員所提到特別預算跟年度預算明年年度預算有重疊的地方他們也做了說明跟解釋是不同的他們也做了說明是不同的"},{"start":4365.137,"end":4386.623,"text":"那如果不清楚的地方可以再請館主委再做說明那我覺得如果大家都有這個心要來支持這筆預算的話那我們能不能用凍結來代替刪除因為其實你一刪掉之後等於這筆如果是保留啦保留等於是到院會就是會被刪掉了啦那我是不是既然有心要支持的話我們是不是用凍結來代替刪除謝謝"},{"start":4388.384,"end":4394.604,"text":"看守委員提的一個緩和一點 用凍結方式管主委您把握最後機會好嗎我要做裁決的 請"},{"start":4397.872,"end":4425.77,"text":"如果說以這筆預算的三千然後十億然後是三兩億的話那個比重十億九千然後是三兩億的話真的實在是重中之重不曉得有沒有可能如果說三兩千萬元然後讓我們努力的來做因為畢竟是海底政策地震的研究我們真的很希望有那個急迫性趕快來開始"},{"start":4427.231,"end":4450.916,"text":"那這樣的話也等於是對國海院的一個鼓勵好的好的我懂你的意思好謝謝管主委那個謝謝您表達完了嗎那如果真的是兩億的話兩億的話這實在是太珍貴的一筆預算一個計畫如果是兩億的話就是295億裡面兩億我們去自行調整"},{"start":4455.512,"end":4457.801,"text":"但是也真的是我才已經講兩千塊了"},{"start":4459.423,"end":4487.325,"text":"那這一筆預算我們真的希望能不能就是兩千萬讓我們讓我們來好好的來做好 謝謝管主委您說明好 好清楚那現在管主委的意思是說能不能調為三千 兩千萬這樣子我也知道這樣講好像壓力感覺到民眾黨對你們也不是很公平因為你們意見已經表達非常清楚了只是說在這種狀態之下有沒有可能我們現在只有兩個答案一 三兩千萬"},{"start":4488.286,"end":4492.339,"text":"二 就直接送院會就這樣子 好不好好 請直接送院會"},{"start":4493.632,"end":4521.781,"text":"好那我們就173案我們就保留送院會處理好謝謝管主委跟各位海洋委員會的列席官員好嗎我們後續大家掌握時間溝通就是說送院會之前我們真的完全沒有機會溝通嗎可以溝通嗎好我們會盡全力的來努力如果這一筆預算表決然後變成零預算的話好的好的管主委送院會前還是可以溝通啦不要硬拗"},{"start":4523.602,"end":4550.659,"text":"辛苦了 館主委 謝謝您謝謝 因為他們要趕回高雄所以我們把海洋事務委員會調為第一案謝謝館主委跟列席館長特別謝謝陳院長 謝謝謝謝你很專業的分析 謝謝好 我們現在回到第五案內政部請內政部有有有 劉部長帶劉部長請院長 各位委員 各位長官 陳委員大家好"},{"start":4562.526,"end":4579.776,"text":"我們進入第五案內政部老屋修繕請劉部長能不能表達一下意見跟各位黨團的成員報告有關第五案老屋修繕的部分其實這個老屋修繕所有的預算大概都是給要修繕的老屋的人"},{"start":4580.757,"end":4594.362,"text":"不是由我們的國家或包括國家住住中心來處理那原則上我們大概每一棟也就是說如果他是屬於耐震補強還可以修繕的話原來我們的預算大概是每一棟是補助200萬到500萬"},{"start":4596.383,"end":4606.835,"text":"那放在特別預算裡面就是說它是一個首發型的一個這樣的處理方式那當然那個民眾黨團有提到說那對於所謂的高齡者高齡者有兩個一個就是我們會跟這個衛福部的長照3.0它裡面的補助的項目會一起因為那個屬於內裝裡面怎麼樣幫助那個年紀比較大的"},{"start":4618.027,"end":4633.908,"text":"那另外一個就是說如果有高齡者並同這個老屋修繕一起的話那在室內裝潢的部分的我們在這個特別預算裡面就會加碼大概會增加兩成左右所以目前為止的這個50億大概都是要給有"},{"start":4634.409,"end":4655.042,"text":"有需求要做老屋修繕的這個部分那跟各位報告就是說我們國土署已經先針對目前在耐震補強尤其是四到六樓有問題的部分大概先盤點出來大概是257棟左右所以50億的部分大概是做這樣的分配以上簡單的報告好 謝謝劉部長說明麻煩請張七開委員請說明"},{"start":4657.642,"end":4680.017,"text":"有 內政部長不錯 看起來有準備啦事實上民眾黨提出 因為發現三個問題這五十億的這個老屋修繕第一個就是剛提的他是不是高齡者實際在居住或者是他是持有者或者至少要跟高齡者同住我們在這裡面沒有看到第一個就是剛提到的這個長照3.0你說內部的那個整個無障礙空間還有這個低碳建材 工法這些也都沒有看到嘛 對不對那第三個可能更重要的"},{"start":4688.282,"end":4714.455,"text":"這個本來這個勞務修正就是在公務預算裡面有的嘛那這次特別在特別預算裡面放了進來那我們要知道要知道你特別預算這個期滿之後怎麼樣回到公務預算繼續執行你只要提一個專案報告我們現在先51先凍結了一半先凍25億可是等你們提了這個專案報告到內政委員會通過之後經過同意我們就同意你凍置好不好把剛剛講這三點把它解釋清楚"},{"start":4714.835,"end":4721.554,"text":"真的照顧到高齡者而且呼應到這個長照3.0特別重要的期滿之後一定要回到公務預算"},{"start":4723.541,"end":4745.115,"text":"跟委員再補充報告有關老屋修繕的部分我們現在要放在特別預算的最主要理由是他可以馬上開辦那再來馬上開辦的時候我們會針對目前老屋修繕碰到的問題因為就我所了解如果他是老人要申請老屋修繕的部分的話他恐怕在金融上面會有問題就是說他去外面申請貸款會有問題"},{"start":4746.636,"end":4774.614,"text":"那我們要解決這個問題的話恐怕又要修法那如果要修法的話恐怕要在一兩年以上的時間也就是說兩年的時間呢讓我們在事辦方面是法律上面需要修改或者要跟衛福部對於長照三點的部分需要再做修正讓我們在未來的修法上面包括在金融權利變換上面可以做比較好的加碼的時候呢對於老宅延售的部分呢就會有比較好的一個方向那就可以列入未來的公務預算"},{"start":4775.114,"end":4794.819,"text":"可是他一定不會重疊不會重疊的理由就是說因為我們每一棟啊他如果申請完了他下一次不可能再申請啦這是一個然後再來呢目前我們覺得以目前來看的話呢老宅的延壽只要他是老宅就可以申請但是他如果老宅裡面有老人的話呢他申請的條件當然會更加碼所以其實他並沒有這個漢格的地方"},{"start":4800.16,"end":4811.034,"text":"也就是說以目前50億來講如果我們先讓我們先凍結一半那就表示我們只能執行一年但是各位委員都知道如果你要再跑選區的話房子要修繕"},{"start":4812.814,"end":4840.314,"text":"從你開始提出來到真正獲得補助這個時間絕對不是一週兩週如果在半年內能夠防止修繕然後開始找到工法找到好的部分的話通常沒有滿一年兩年以上大概不太可能那如果說先給一半讓我們執行一年的話第一個時間上確實有太緊迫的這個顧慮然後第二個呢就是說我們未來要再輔導他做老屋修繕尤其是弱勢族群的這個部分呢又會更慢"},{"start":4840.994,"end":4867.778,"text":"因為這裡面我們已經在找若干的國有的銀行來問看看他們有沒有可能針對高齡者願意給他做老屋修繕的必要的經費那這些經費呢一定不是只有五萬十萬這麼少一點點所以我們很希望說第一個可以提專案報告或提書面報告一定沒問題但是時間不能只有一年所以我們認為在特別預算裡面因為在這個民生相關的也是屬於我們在經濟面上面的一個特別預算"},{"start":4868.298,"end":4887.236,"text":"所以就請這個民眾黨團可不可以同意第一個我們一定會到委員會去報告但是呢盡量不用凍結的方式因為他是有多少給多少而且是給民眾裡面沒有任何是屬於公務機關裡面要用到的預算以上謝謝劉部長說明請宗家病委員發言傅坤吉總召請準備"},{"start":4887.898,"end":4914.191,"text":"好 謝謝主席我剛剛仔細的聆聽了我們的齊凱幹事長跟我們劉部長的說明我想這裡內政部應該很坦誠的說明一個困境就是原來他們這個老屋修繕原來的想像是對老者居住環境的改善所以申請的前提是必須先有老者然後再去修繕你的老屋那實務上在操作上我們發現了一個問題"},{"start":4916.152,"end":4939.622,"text":"第一老是否為老者所有這是第一個問題第二個以老者為申請者他可能要符合銀行貸款的條件是很難過關的一個七八十歲的老者為了修繕我們因為只是補助喔不是全部幫他出喔那如果說他還要去銀行貸款然後取得這個補助開始進行他所安身立命的老宅的修繕其實我們知道金融作業上"},{"start":4940.342,"end":4956.805,"text":"一般的行庫是不太願意對於七八十歲老人家提供這樣一個修繕的房屋的貸款因為他沒有再收入能力了所以目前的這個特別預算它調整不是以老人住在老宅以老人來提出而是以長者"},{"start":4957.566,"end":4981.804,"text":"有老屋本身就可以提出申請但是老屋本身要提出申請的時候他是以優先照顧裡面由長者居住的老宅那這就不太一樣了可能有兩代同住的或老老同住的那麼由適合資格的人因為有長者居住那來提出申請之後由這個提出申請的人去申請房屋的修繕貸款"},{"start":4982.825,"end":4985.227,"text":"但是內政部他會整合他們既有的老人的長照的評估未來在修繕的同時也去強化用他們的年度預算既有預算去強化在老宅修繕當中對長者環境的補強我覺得這是一個我們滾動式調整當中內政部發現了要照顧長者的居住環境在原來的政策下所做的一個修正"},{"start":5006.184,"end":5030.898,"text":"那我覺得這個修正呢應該很符合包括我們齊凱雄所在的我們中南部很多地區都有長者那他租的老宅那麼如果我們限定是因為以有長者來向政府提出老宅的修繕會有自然難行之處但是由老宅本身的所有權能來提出但是他們審查的時候以有長者居住的為優先並且整合他們既有的年度預算"},{"start":5031.298,"end":5035.079,"text":"給他在長者居住的環境內部設施上於補強既修了房子也幫裡面的長者的生活空間的需求也滿足了我覺得這樣的一個修正型的政策利用這次特別預算來滿足的確可以滿足我們很多鄉親的需求懇切的希望我們委員在您的選區裡面有長輩居住在老宅裡面的人考量到這個政策的修正的必要性我們予以支持"},{"start":5055.686,"end":5074.054,"text":"那如果說需要內政部提出專案報告那麼或許我們可以用什麼方式的決議來要求我相信這樣的目的也是張七開委員您看到我們在鄉間的這些老宅或獨居長者他們所需要的情況所做的一個努力那懇請來支持跟提亮謝謝嘉賓委員 我們請副總召請"},{"start":5078.499,"end":5105.914,"text":"謝謝主席我還是要再強調一下我們現在審查的是中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算條例其實有太多各部會所編入特別預算的這些相關的經費都不符合預算法83條的急迫性"},{"start":5107.045,"end":5117.664,"text":"但是尤其這這個一邊就是兩年這五十一一邊就是兩年所以現在原則上"},{"start":5122.205,"end":5149.635,"text":"這個民眾黨是提出凍結50%我想在這裡不管哪一個政黨對老屋的修繕還是獨居老人的支持我想各政黨沒有任何異議我覺得我們不要在這個上面打轉哪一個政黨對老人比較照顧我想講這些都多餘的大家都支持但是問題是適不適合放在特別預算裡面第二個兩年是不是要一次編列"},{"start":5151.155,"end":5168.026,"text":"所以民眾黨會提凍結50%就是在執行可能兩到三年給你一半的預算其實全部預算也都通過了只是前面凍結50%就是看你執行的情況如何再過來我想現在是這樣子"},{"start":5171.768,"end":5185.922,"text":"我想內政部也國土署也不斷地去跟民眾黨溝通也跟本黨有在溝通本黨張志倫委員也一直在關心這個事情我想我們是不是如果民眾黨同意的話"},{"start":5187.579,"end":5211.14,"text":"麻煩民主黨聽一下 副總召再跟你們講話如果說同意的話我們凍結50%是不是能改到凍結20%並且要專案報告後使得凍資如果可以的話副總召提出一個就凍結改為20%然後專案報告使得凍資 請黃總召表達意見同意同意前有幾句話一定要講清楚你不要急 我還請你 請發言第一個"},{"start":5214.101,"end":5217.566,"text":"今天討論這個特別預算本來是一年高關稅只有900多億但沒發現現在已經變成5000多億了"},{"start":5222.315,"end":5248.113,"text":"因為公務預算這個老屋的修建本來在年度預算本來就有在做所有的黨國民黨民眾黨大家都很支持老屋的這個修建可是在年度本來就在做所以我們本來是一毛錢都不給的大家知道嗎你要鎖這個財政紀律啊你要特別預算你本來就應該回到預算法第83條結果你一下子把所有東西都丟出來那我要請問以後年度預算要省嗎"},{"start":5249.505,"end":5265.03,"text":"所以第一要財政紀律第二更重要的嘉賓你一直在講照顧年長者這我們都有在照顧可是長久以來不管以前國民黨執政民進黨執政民眾黨做一個在野黨我們在強調老屋修建是重要我們要照顧長輩可是你剛剛講的一副好像是只有你們重視"},{"start":5266.51,"end":5290.196,"text":"你不要毀壞財政紀律 回到預算法第83條這是一個 第二個 大家做在重視的同時我們只要你做什麼事 預算是要給的喔可是我剛講的 因為你跟長照3.0沒有扣在一起嘛你到底無障礙空間 跟這個低碳建材你要怎麼做 包括剛講的 你是不是要照顧長輩高齡者有沒有住在裡面 他有沒有擁有這個房子你本來要再交代清楚啊"},{"start":5291.016,"end":5304.801,"text":"所以我們才說本來是一毛錢不給的後來我們 老實講我們就做了讓步了凍結50%那剛剛如果討論我就覺得如果剛剛國昌也同意好 我們就凍結20%可是我剛剛講的我明確要求的"},{"start":5306.55,"end":5332.455,"text":"明確要求一定要做到 特別是這個期滿之後不要再編特別預算了因為本來年度預算就在做嘛 好不好不要重疊再做了而且破壞了 嚴重破壞了這個財政紀律 謝謝那個 劉部長 那個現在這樣子齁現在就是國民黨團體一個就是改為凍結20%然後黃國昌總召也同意那現在就是改凍結114年度老屋修繕20%大概在10億新台幣左右那剩下這個也"},{"start":5333.643,"end":5358.297,"text":"如果有需要的話咧 就是用書面報告動之後 使得同意使用還是要專案報告書面報告 剛講的那些點都要進來喔不要急嘛 要回到公布預算好不好 不要 我先試試看把兩個總召的想法先跟部長交換一下意見謝謝那請問一下劉部長 您可以表達意見謝謝院長 我還是再重複講一下第一個 這些都是給各縣市地方政府"},{"start":5359.338,"end":5382.217,"text":"那還有就是說如果能夠改成書面意見因為我剛有特別提到長照3.0是衛福部那衛福部如果他們要到內政委員會來報告我們意見可是在裡面有些條件包括我所說的我們的困難點是在於法律上的適用以及金融權力的變換那這個部分我們會再明說讓他怎麼樣更smooth可以去推廣給地方政府"},{"start":5382.717,"end":5395.531,"text":"那如果說幾個黨團都同意凍結這樣子的數目字那個也就是十億左右我們當然是遵照辦理但我們希望改成書面意見因為專案報告的部分我已經講了 剛才講了就是用書面報告之後使得凍資116年度好不好如果這樣子的話"},{"start":5402.488,"end":5429.288,"text":"那第五案 各黨團幹部所聽下我們就改為凍結116年度老屋修產20% 10億元然後呢 另外提出書面報告經過同 書面報告之後同意並經同意後 使得凍值各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見如果沒有意見報告 報告院長 書面報告要經同書面報告就可以了 好不好"},{"start":5432.304,"end":5435.491,"text":"可以啦黃總召請剛剛院長出來試圖綜合意見其實我們本來是希望要求專案報告"},{"start":5442.182,"end":5468.79,"text":"但是院長都已經說話了所以我剛剛並沒有打斷院長的說話但是書面報告我們可以接受但是要先同意那否則的話送書面報告來那書面報告拿一張紙他有沒有回答問題是不是解決所有委員的疑慮圖據形式啦所以剛剛院長的折衷方案書面報告我們可以接受但是必須要先同意好 謝謝黃組長補充意見那劉部長這邊有一點小修正就是"},{"start":5469.468,"end":5493.964,"text":"那20%之後要經過書面報告 經同意之後使得凍資這要特別跟內政部交換一下意見好 如果各位沒有意見的話我們第五案就這樣修正通過好 第六案改為主決議各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有沒有意見我們通過第七案修正通過第七案主決議大家有沒有寶貴意見沒有"},{"start":5496.229,"end":5509.841,"text":"柯文哲你慢一點嘛 還沒講就慢一點我讓其他黨團跟他們消化一下嘛好不好好 有沒有意見沒有意見 主席可以通過第八案我們緊急救災這個台灣民眾黨提出的凍結1820萬那個內政部請說明"},{"start":5516.475,"end":5540.228,"text":"謝謝有關台灣民眾黨的立院黨團所提的這個部分那我可以先從前面再講一下第一個這些防救災的緊急衛生物資整備呢也就是我們現在的防災協作中心基本上就是鄉鎮村里公所裡面他們所要配備大概是為了天然災害裡面所準備的部分那放在特別預算裡面當然跟我們現在的這個國安任性有相關"},{"start":5541.429,"end":5562.527,"text":"所以如果刪掉1800萬的話對不起 凍結1800多萬的話我們在緊急衛生設備上面大概就會往下縮減這是一個部分再來一個就是說在裡面的民眾黨團有特別提到說未來有些維修的部分第一個先跟大家報告"},{"start":5563.228,"end":5582.626,"text":"因為我們現在要支援給縣市地方尤其是公所等等這些部分大概368個鄉鎮公所我們都去拜訪過了他們大概知道都是要放在什麼地方然後要配備什麼樣子的發電機或者是緊急用的這個通訊設備那如果因為這些都有些都是消耗品"},{"start":5583.447,"end":5604.527,"text":"那既然是消耗品的話過了三年的保固期間的話其實應該是在下一輪那下一輪的部分我們會放在我們自己這個災防辦裡面呢也就是我們的這個消防署裡面會再繼續往下補助大概就是消耗品的關係而不是因為沒有沒有大到或是複雜到需要再做維修的這個部分這是第一個"},{"start":5605.208,"end":5620.895,"text":"那再來就是368個防災協作中心目前以我們在年度預算不是這個特別預算年度預算裡面我們會分大大的防災協作中心跟小的防災協作中心如果是大的防災協作中心的話我們會補助他們50萬元"},{"start":5622.156,"end":5637.392,"text":"那不在這個預算裡面那小的防災協作中心會補助他們20萬元對於譬如說要有這個物資整備上面要有倉儲或是其他這個緊急電源或是水啊等等這些會放在我們的公務預算裡面做支出以上報告請黃總大請"},{"start":5642.327,"end":5656.848,"text":"黃主席 對不起 我打個岔麻煩後面的工作夥伴各位 大家都同仁能不能把那個錄清一下好不好我們會場有點凌亂請大家 不是內政部的請離席好不好好 拜託一下會場真的有點凌亂 不好意思 黃主席請"},{"start":5659.376,"end":5681.544,"text":"因為剛剛內政部劉部長針對這個提案所為的回應也好說明也好他沒有針對這個提案的全貌做完全的說明我怕沒有看到提案單的人會誤會如同什麼要補助給這些村里中心補助給他們的經費會縮水因為這個凍結所以就會縮水"},{"start":5685.005,"end":5699.313,"text":"會產生這樣子的誤會所以我必須因為有很多人可能看直播嘛但他沒看到提案單嘛在這個向下總共編列了15億8500萬15億8500萬15億8500萬裡面我們只要求凍結1800萬只要求凍結1800萬"},{"start":5713.277,"end":5727.35,"text":"那為什麼是凍結1800萬因為這1800萬是拿來做行政作業的相關的行政作業它不是針對補助本身有任何的刪減或者是凍結我再強調一次15億8500萬沒有刪一塊錢"},{"start":5733.686,"end":5757.976,"text":"第二個我們凍結的是1800萬也沒有凍結到補助的部分而是相關行政作業的部分那為什麼凍結相關行政作業的部分就是從這幾次的災難裡面對於各個村裡他們的補助在系統上面怎麼樣真的能夠到位因為過去"},{"start":5759.622,"end":5771.326,"text":"我相信這些防災的經費這些給村里補助的經費過去其實都有變但我們看到實際上面的實踐會發現說為什麼跟我們的認知差距這麼遠錢灑下去了怎麼實際上面看到的狀況是這個樣子"},{"start":5779.693,"end":5797.023,"text":"我們很關心我相信很多基層的民眾也很關心但我們也了解這個救災上面村里需要的所以我們希望能夠針對這件事情在15億8500萬裡面針對行政作業的部分凍結了1800多萬拜託 懇請請我們的內政部來做一個專案報告讓所有的委員知道"},{"start":5807.78,"end":5820.414,"text":"為什麼會出現這樣子的落差我們錢撒下去是不是有符合村里他們真正實際上面第一線的需求我覺得這個提案非常的合理而且非常的卑微"},{"start":5822.79,"end":5839.981,"text":"黃總召所提的這個部長也可以思考一下中委麻煩掌握一下時間好不好因為我們還有100多個案請我簡單說因為這個提案我有在委員會審查的時候提出了主決議那這個主決議內容跟我們民眾黨的提案內容的一個思維的邏輯是一樣的"},{"start":5841.542,"end":5845.544,"text":"但是我在這裡要提醒一下因為這所謂的1820萬跟所謂的15億8520萬它的關聯性是什麼也就是說這一個1820萬的事務費它就是要做剛剛民眾黨所提的這些事情我們現在看到的這些譬如說村里辦公室 結構是會有補強是不是可以放這些裝備"},{"start":5866.195,"end":5880.835,"text":"那我這裡呢也都很清楚的去看到他整個15億的經費裡面他的確是針對全國上百個這樣的防災協作點他是要把這些裝備呢要撒下去的那當時呢本席有建議說是不是"},{"start":5881.696,"end":5888.758,"text":"但是我的方向剛好相反我覺得並不是說把各地方的需求調查好透過行政會調查好之後呢我們就進行採購然後你就灑下去而是要想到說這裡面有些是各裝有些是團體裝備比如說發電機不可能放在村長家裡譬如說緊急照明燈"},{"start":5899.662,"end":5923.458,"text":"譬如說一些青蛙衣像這些在防災可能用到的所謂的電動鏈具那這些設備有時候不是適合放在村裡當中而是適合在災前譬如說颱風警報發布後由協作廠商將這些保管的物資發放上去這些設備發放上去如果沒有用到或用了之後收回來繼續保養"},{"start":5924.679,"end":5927.564,"text":"不然的話有些裝備交到這協作點它沒有辦法維護保養它是很快就壞掉的因此在這樣的情況之下我反而認為這1820萬要趕緊的去把這樣的一個"},{"start":5939.483,"end":5944.385,"text":"一個分配收回的機制把它建立起來所以是不是請我們的民眾黨的同仁可以支持說這個案子我們要求內政部做怎麼樣內容的強化而不是你把它凍結了三個月它不能凍以至於後面15億的設備裝備沒辦法採購我們今年已經到10月了我們很希望這在明年來之前我們各地的村裡房債協作點可以趕快的拿到裝備以上"},{"start":5964.454,"end":5990.949,"text":"好 謝謝鍾委那個劉部長您看這個剛剛黃國昌總召跟鍾委員所說是有一點點出入但是以15億8500萬這邊凍結1820萬這個在我知道您有沒有意見請表這樣子好不好我先提就是比較positive的部分第一個就是說如果要把那個1800多萬全部刪除掉的話它整個項目都不見了沒有啊 凍結對不起"},{"start":5992.13,"end":6006.436,"text":"它整個項目就不能用整個項目都不能用所以就是會變成時間上會有遲延這是一個再來就是說我們的消防署的主任秘書他有提到就是有點類似像中委員所因為我們去民進黨團那邊解釋過"},{"start":6008.897,"end":6019.106,"text":"就是前面要有些輔導的措施否則防災協作中心的有一些人他會誤會覺得我錢撥給他他說不定跑去買冷氣買電扇但是我們要的是緊急發電機那怎麼用緊急發電機或是通訊設備像這兩次的天災都有通訊設備上面需要我們幫忙輔導那一般的這個鄉鎮或是村里長的辦公室沒有那麼快可以進入狀況那這些都要有一點點的訓練跟說明跟輔導"},{"start":6036.221,"end":6056.617,"text":"那這些大概就是要靠消防署或者是各地的消防局來協助他們我們主要是放在這個地方所以不是在於錢的多少錢如果跟剛剛那個黃國昌委員所提到的你15億多我只有給你動1800但是我現在講這個整個項目都postpone的話會造成我們有些困擾"},{"start":6057.618,"end":6082.655,"text":"因為明年的汛期幾乎在明的四五月就到來了所以會有這一點點時間差我們並不是要argue說前述的多少或凍結與否以上了解 那個張紀凱 張委員那就針對這個麻煩掌握時間好嗎好 謝謝關鍵是早該做啦是你沒有做好然後這個提案單看提案單好不好你三個月內你就趕快來我跟你講為什麼會提這個案子"},{"start":6083.72,"end":6094.576,"text":"像丹納斯的時候我回去嘉義你知道嗎那個異族鄉的那個緊急安置中心外面在下大雨人家說外面下大雨你家裡面下小雨不是耶外面下大雨它裡面也下大雨地上都是水"},{"start":6095.936,"end":6110.979,"text":"就表示你很多跟鄉鎮市長跟村里長的溝通是不良的就剛國商在講的你錢撒了那麼多年都幾十億幾十萬下去就出了一堆問題嘛所以我們今天要你先凍結這筆錢然後趕快來報告你三個月聽我講趕快三個月內趕快來報告這包括設備跟物資你要去問地方的村里長跟鄉鎮市長真正是了解地方真正解決問題到目前為止到目前為止"},{"start":6125.662,"end":6144.329,"text":"役組的那個緊急安置中心都還沒修好啊好 謝謝 裁判議員請發言好 院長謝謝 剛剛鍾嘉斌委員講的就在這個預算書裡面拜託齊凱委員你看一下這個部分是寫的寫法是說這個錢是為了辦理計畫行政作業"},{"start":6149.431,"end":6168.963,"text":"嚴禮防救災緊急衛生設備項目之規格與標準及審查補助案相關工作也就是如果我們前期這些事情沒有做包含部長剛剛說的再去宣導我們就沒有辦法把地方上的需求透過縣市政府再回報給內政部所以剛剛部長跟您解釋的你先讓我講完"},{"start":6169.944,"end":6184.337,"text":"部長剛跟你解釋的是這個第二個你剛舉嘉義為例那難道我要舉花蓮為例嗎在這一次艷澀湖的狀況裡面我們看到縣市政府不是沒有角色而且這件事情是全台灣22個縣市都是如此可是剛剛在齊凱偉您的發言當中"},{"start":6187.159,"end":6193.963,"text":"不知道你有沒有注意到你刻意忽略了嘉義縣政府難道他們沒有角色嗎難道你要內政部在全台灣的每一個相關的災防所都有內政部自己派科員派組員下去說明嗎不可能嘛如果我們回到地方自治跟中央政府的關係你怎麼會把縣市政府的關係拿掉呢所以你剛剛指責內政部好像忽略了沒有去跟鄉鎮區公所這些里長里長溝通"},{"start":6214.416,"end":6225.526,"text":"這個我認為在地方自治跟中央分工的角度有非常大的問題但是我還是要拜託齊凱委員看一下預算書有說得非常的清楚謝謝院長抱歉陳委員一直在誤解那你怎麼樣我幫嘉義爭取該有的錢利你不幫花你是不是更重要剛剛講的請不要再罵了張齊凱請跟我道歉請不要罵我你剛剛講話沒有插嘴"},{"start":6241.028,"end":6262.002,"text":"為什麼民眾黨提了這個案子我們經過黨團討論就是因為你早該做的事情沒做好嘛所以要由下而上不要每次由上而下撒了錢下去出了一堆問題我們要你解決問題把該做沒有做的或早做你現在做得不好的先動解一部分趕快來把它解釋清楚做得更好這樣提案你們都要扭曲嗎"},{"start":6263.939,"end":6290.547,"text":"如果他們要這樣扭曲我們非常堅持就是照原來的案子 不用再講了重大應援去處理我們幫陳平講話 結果你們一直在扭曲你們要捍衛不是你們要捍衛你們民進黨不是這樣大家看一下主席好不好稍等一下我要請劉部長先講劉部長舉手兩次了部長請表達意見好 謝謝我想各位委員都非常關心這一點我們完全贊同可不可以這樣子第一個就是一千八百"},{"start":6293.428,"end":6316.342,"text":"20萬的部分呢這個經費的凍結我們完全同意但是項目的部分呢請把它刪掉讓我們自行調整好不好就是說包括要做專案報告這個我們也都同意因為我還是強調就是如果你把整個項目都刪掉的話等於是前面沒有人在做其他的這個輔導規格的開設啊等等這些那這個經費都沒有辦法再運用"},{"start":6318.305,"end":6333.22,"text":"可不可以用這樣的方式 或者是比較比較比較籠統一點 不要把整個項目全部都刪掉我就要說 劉部長您的意思是說1820這個數字不變但是希望把項目刪掉 剩下您自己來調整是這個意思嗎 對對對對可不可以用這樣的方式"},{"start":6334.79,"end":6363.769,"text":"不用啦 因為民進黨的黨團一直在當打手你們一直在扭曲我們的提案我們就堅持原來的你們只要對待起人民就好了委員長 我簡單說明一下啦其實喔 剛剛其實劉部長他也同意說凍結了這個預算那只是說因為這個預算是做這個行政作業費前置作業 如果你前置作業沒有讓他做的話等於其實後面都沒辦法做那所以讓你們凍這個1820萬但是不要指定這個項目讓他能夠做好不好"},{"start":6364.409,"end":6386.318,"text":"讓他能夠做下去因為這涉及到各個村裡各個到那個各個鄉鎮市都需要那你如果前面租業費沒有的話那其實後面就沒辦法做了吧那所以能不能就是按照劉部長所建議的我們就凍結這筆預算但是不要指定是這個項目好不好讓大家做個折衝啦那個好 謝謝啊那個現在"},{"start":6389.3,"end":6404.45,"text":"那個中委稍微等一下好不好容我再提醒一下我們有一百多個案子還在等那現在張其凱張委員台灣民眾黨團我特別講現在劉部長提了一個建議就是說1820不變但是不要限制他的項目這樣您看可以不可以 沒關係講"},{"start":6406.271,"end":6431.705,"text":"這個提案單強調就是地方的需求本來要傳給中央中央你本來就是要雙向溝通嘛所以你趕快去由要聽他們的意見然後提出一個好的而且這裡面提的是三個月內你可以盡快提啊結果你們當打手你們還扭曲我們的提案我們站在人民立場我們為什麼要同意呢除非你把事情講清楚沒有我們先堅持大院會去講啦我們堅持原來的提案那個"},{"start":6434.771,"end":6461.925,"text":"該做你為什麼要額外處理呢其實是有機會打成公事但如果各位再讓情緒對立下去又沒有意思所以說我覺得行政內政部講的也非常理性就是民進黨也就不要再接槍了那現在台灣民眾黨團這邊就1820這個數字我們把它凍結那讓這個案子能夠繼續往前推進"},{"start":6464.913,"end":6490.993,"text":"我知道 就1820就第8個案子嘛就凍結1820不要限制他的項目可以還是不可以 請說明這樣可能會影響到那個地方補助那一塊啦我們本來就是為什麼就是不要影響到地方所以才要項目要明確嘛 對不對啊你現在又把它拿掉不就影響到地方嗎影響到你的屏東 影響到你的花蓮"},{"start":6493.953,"end":6501.916,"text":"齊凱偉 你講了半天你還沒有回答可以還是不可以可以 維持我們原來的一案這麼清楚 他們應該保留不是 我怕主席不是 因為齊凱兄有點誤會啦我這樣說明好不好其實齊凱兄他們這個計畫不是今年才做其實在之前他們就有委託平科大我所知道只有屏東"},{"start":6517.481,"end":6538.252,"text":"他們就委託平和大做災防協助中心已經在做宣導了所以我所接觸到的村里長他們就是有接到這樣的一個輔導所以他們才有跟我們反應所以我才很認同你們提案文裡面所說的這些內容包括說這些村里辦公室或者說社區活動中心它不見得適合放這些防災設備所以我才用主決意形方說有些設備不要放在社區活動中心"},{"start":6541.954,"end":6567.656,"text":"是有災來之前才發放所以是支持你的方向那是不是說剛剛那個主席也建議說是不是這個讓因為他們已經是要退一陣子了那如果這個時候呢如果這個前置作業擋住了後面的這些我們村里村長他們所期待的防災協作中心他們要的這些裝備不能及時取得這有點可惜跟遺憾所以我懇請說是不是可以就是用剛剛主席建的方式我們來處理好不好"},{"start":6568.797,"end":6594.799,"text":"嘉賓也認同我們的提案嘛對不對也認同嘛那更重要這件事情本來就要做你說本來就有研究的你就趕快來報告而且為什麼我特別強調不能夠改成把那個行政作業那一塊拿掉啦我們當初為什麼要這樣訂就是怕影響到對地方的補助嘛所以我們非常堅持到此了不要再說了說來說去都是這一套好不好就這樣第八案保留我不再回頭了我們進入第九案主決議內政部請表達意見"},{"start":6597.669,"end":6615.395,"text":"那個羅明財委有沒有意見啊好那這案通過那就謝謝謝謝內政部劉部長跟各位列席的官員謝謝請回 謝謝我們現在休息十分鐘之後開始進行國防部的 謝謝"},{"start":7453.356,"end":7477.882,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部 謝謝我們現在進入 顧部長 謝謝我們進入國防部我們現在第十案到一百三十二案現在跟黨團幹部報告一下我們馬文君委員要徵提兩個組決議那現在已經發到各位"},{"start":7483.103,"end":7494.669,"text":"這兩個主決議請大家參閱一下馬文靜委員所提出來的請大家參閱一下如果各位同意的話我們就收案好 謝謝我們就收案"},{"start":7510.894,"end":7535.496,"text":"10案我們先保留 回頭我們再來審第10案我們先進入第11案 主決議 沒意見進入提案委員討論之後 建請同意文字修正後通過 好 謝謝修正通過 我們第12案12案進入提案委員討論後 建請同意預算照列好 謝謝同意照列"},{"start":7536.618,"end":7565.438,"text":"我們現在進入第二項國安部所屬第13案請國安部說明經理提案委員討論後 建請同意預算照列同意照列好 同意照列 好 謝謝我們進入第14案 請國安部表達意見是 就這個部分在鋼棚類的部分經理委員討論之後我們並聯席會就是聯席會的第91案的主決議辦理那預算的部分 建請同意照列"},{"start":7568.998,"end":7587.603,"text":"這個有刪喔第十四案第十四案是刪有刪減數沒有嗎沒有沒有那是提案對就是有關鋼棚的工作項目律定個案項目規格及要求據以辦理照因為在我們的這一次任性預算抱歉抱歉"},{"start":7589.784,"end":7606.402,"text":"這一次在我們的任勳預算裡面因為有很多鋼棚的這樣的一個設施可是我們完全看不到它的功能或者它的規格或者它的數量或者它的大小所以這個部分我們可以並這個組決議辦理希望可以確切的提供相關的資訊"},{"start":7608.626,"end":7615.452,"text":"同意改組決議並組決議辦理集會的那個九十一案當時馬委員在聯席會提出來那個九十一案的組決議辦理我們就並聯席會九十一案辦理馬委員這樣沒有意見嗎沒有意見好"},{"start":7628.795,"end":7652.993,"text":"進入第十五案 請公安部表達意見十五案就有關這個工程鋼棚的案件也是一樣的案件或工作項目律定個案項目規格及要求具以辦理遭開標或違反罪也就是一樣連同上案就是並聯席會議的九十一案主決一辦理那建請同意預算照例那十五 十六都是一樣喔同意"},{"start":7654.154,"end":7671.78,"text":"十五 十六案都是併聯議會十六也是如此併九十一案 滿為沒意見好 同意第十七案十六案併也是併聯席會九十一案對第十七案十四 十五 十六的那十七案的話經理天安委員討論 建請同意預算照列"},{"start":7672.628,"end":7700.319,"text":"好 同意好 我們預算照例第18案18案同意刪除全數刪除3614萬好 減列3614萬好 我們通過進入第18案第19案19案也同意刪除2000萬好 同意刪除 光復同意刪除通過 第二十案二十案經議提案委員討論 建議同意預算照例"},{"start":7701.42,"end":7721.858,"text":"好 馬委員沒問題 同意照列我們議議20案預算照列 21案21案經議天安委員討論 建請同意預算照列我們預算照列 同意照列 謝謝 22案22案跟前面的14案一樣都改成並聯席會的91案決議辦理 那預算同意照列同意 一樣我們22案並聯席會91案"},{"start":7727.222,"end":7753.504,"text":"二十三案二十三案也是建請同意預算照列同意照列二十四案二十四案也一樣就是併聯席會九十一案主決議辦理預算照列併九十一案聯席會 同意二十五案二十五案同意刪除四千四百八七萬二十五案同意刪除四千四百八七萬通過二十六案"},{"start":7754.584,"end":7759.866,"text":"26案同意刪除1億5706萬26案同意刪除1億5706萬 同意刪除通過 27案同意刪除3500萬 同意刪除3500萬通過 28案"},{"start":7770.461,"end":7792.759,"text":"二十八案經議委員討論或建請同意預算照列二十八案就照列 同意照列好謝謝 二十九案二十九案 建請同意預算照列那麼就剛剛馬委員提出一個新的組決議的部分我們到時候那個組決議我們就按組決議來辦理好的好的 那是在第三十二十一"},{"start":7797.294,"end":7800.656,"text":"100改組決議對 我們改為組決議 好不好好 改為組決議132之1132之1就沒有3也改為組決議好 並131好 並131我們第32"},{"start":7814.051,"end":7832.243,"text":"三十案 建請同意預算照列好 預算照列滿圍好 第三十一案建請同意預算照列滿圍同意照列同意照列第三十二建請同意預算照列同意照列第三十三建請同意預算照列同意照列好 同意照列第三十四"},{"start":7832.711,"end":7856.639,"text":"建請同意預算照列 同意照列 第三十五建請同意預算照列 同意照列 照列 第三十六建請同意預算照列 同意照列 照列 第三十七第三十七建請同意預算照列那一樣就是改組決議就是併那個四個案子是不是第二張因為有兩案嘛"},{"start":7861.76,"end":7877.43,"text":"並議三議嗎沒問題我們就一樣改為主決議嘛這樣就好了好不好毛委員2287495四個案子他就是新增主決議然後同意招列這個部分"},{"start":7878.291,"end":7894.662,"text":"改組決議 同意照列我們等一下回頭到那個組決議的時候我們再探討第38 同意刪除700萬第39 建請同意預算照列第40 建請同意預算照列預算照列第41 建請同意預算照列"},{"start":7902.008,"end":7928.355,"text":"同意遭列 同意遭列第四十二建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 同意遭列第四十三建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 同意遭列預算遭列第四十四建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 同意遭列遭列第四十五四十五同意三除一千九百萬同意 四十五案同意三除一千九百萬好 我們進入四十六四十六建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 好 四十六案預算遭列 四十七"},{"start":7929.814,"end":7951.466,"text":"47也是建請同意預算照列那麼鋼紅類的部分並聯繫會91組決議辦理好第47案並聯繫會91組決議來辦理好嗎好謝謝第48建請同意預算照列同意照列好48預算照列 49建請同意預算照列同意照列好預算照列第50建請同意預算照列同意照列好預算照列第51建請同意預算照列"},{"start":7956.269,"end":7982.365,"text":"同意照列 預算照列 五十二五十二 一樣併聯席會九十一組決議辦理 預算照列併聯席會九十一案 同意謝謝預算照列 我們併聯席會九十一案組決議來併案討論 五十三建請同意預算照列好 五十三 預算照列 同意照列五十四 建請同意預算照列五十四 滿委員 同意預算照列 五十五"},{"start":7983.165,"end":8000.159,"text":"55同意刪減1575萬好 55同意刪減1575萬那同意刪減這個數額以外其實我們還有一個就是要刪減那個教練儀館天線基座的整修的部分這個部分也在討論之內好 統一就在這個案裡面嗎對"},{"start":8008.906,"end":8025.707,"text":"那第55萬有指定刪減教練 儀館 天線 基座 整修這個案子已經就這個部分全數刪除了全數刪除了 馬委員好 已經全數刪除了就不需要"},{"start":8026.869,"end":8042.967,"text":"我們就全數刪除50萬 第56依照馬委員的提案因為他是整比大的那個項目就這個部分我們有指定的部分就是那個項目刪減我們進入56建請同意預算照例同意照列57"},{"start":8045.609,"end":8062.717,"text":"建請同意預算照列同意照列58建請同意預算照列同意照列同意照列59建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第60這個建請同意刪除2100萬元"},{"start":8064.762,"end":8085.216,"text":"馬委員這第60案建請刪除2100萬我們同意不過就是我們有特別要求在他應該要怎麼樣去強化因為你四個案子嘛就我們要求的部分下去做一個調整好不好好同意好我們第60案刪減2100萬好第61案建請同意刪除1800萬好刪除1800萬同意第62案"},{"start":8095.75,"end":8116.75,"text":"62案 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第63建請同意預算照列同意照列好 預算照列第64建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第65建請同意預算照列同意照列第66建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列67建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8117.29,"end":8143.878,"text":"同意照列 預算照列第68 建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第69建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第70建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第71建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第72建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第73建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列第74建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8144.218,"end":8168.86,"text":"同意遭列 預算遭列 第75建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第76建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第77建請同意預算遭列同意遭列我們三個人這樣一搭一唱 蠻順暢的大家都沒意見 第78建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第79建請同意預算遭列同意遭列 預算遭列 第80"},{"start":8170.75,"end":8187.563,"text":"80 一樣預算照列並聯繫會議91案的主決議辦理好 滿委員好 同意並預算就照列了好 並主決議第81建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 第8282 同意刪除1779萬元同意刪除1779萬元 第83"},{"start":8194.996,"end":8209.602,"text":"第83這個一樣建請同意預算照略那就並同新增的主決議的部分就並新增的主決議預算照略好 同意好 沒問題83並新增主決議好 第84"},{"start":8210.866,"end":8237.918,"text":"是一樣 建請同意預算照列那鋼棚類的部分並聯席會91的組決議辦理好的 媽媽有沒有意見沒問題 預算照列我們並91聯席會的會議來討論 第8585建請同意預算照列 同意照列好 預算照列 第86建請同意預算照列 同意照列預算照列87建請同意預算照列 同意照列預算照列88"},{"start":8238.783,"end":8263.685,"text":"建請同意預算照列 同意照列 預算照列八十九建請同意預算照列 同意照列 預算照列八 九十建請同意預算照列 同意照列 第九十一建請同意預算照列同意照列 預算照列 九十二同意刪除三千萬元同意 好 第九十二案同業減列三千萬元 計九三"},{"start":8265.552,"end":8280.251,"text":"93 建請同意預算照列同意照列好 預算照列第94建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列第95建請同意預算照列同意照列好 預算照列第9696 同意就同意刪除2000萬元"},{"start":8282.277,"end":8286.999,"text":"同意好 第96案預算簡列業務費2000萬元 第9797 一樣 併聯席會91組決議辦理預算照列同意 併聯席會91案好 第98同意刪除9000萬元"},{"start":8300.478,"end":8325.389,"text":"因為我們有指定刪減的項目就是同意一案刪減九千萬我們同意啦我們第九十八案檢列業務費九千萬元九十九建請同意預算照列預算照列 同意照列好 九十九案預算照列一百案一百案同意委員提案刪除一億兩千五百九十六萬元我們"},{"start":8327.011,"end":8353.32,"text":"第100案 檢列業務費1億2461萬 設備費135萬同意 檢列那馬委員 檢列同意好 刪除了 第101案101案 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 102102案 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 第103同意刪除4千萬元"},{"start":8354.434,"end":8379.535,"text":"同意好 我們103案檢列業務費4千萬元 104104 建請同意預算照列那無人機訊廠的這就剛剛無人機訊廠的這幾個案子就是依照新增的主決議文辦理好的 我們預算照列然後無人機這一部分就是照主決議好不好 同意好 新增的主決議好 104案"},{"start":8381.397,"end":8386.421,"text":"那105案 統一3減200萬105案減列200萬元106 建請統一預算照列統一照列107案 統一3除3億2202萬6千元"},{"start":8408.67,"end":8412.934,"text":"馬委員同意就是我們簡列設備及投資3億2202萬6千元好108108件請同意預算照列同意照列好108預算照列109同意刪除9527萬"},{"start":8427.935,"end":8431.997,"text":"同意好109案檢列業務費9527萬110同意3除4800萬同意好110案檢列業務費4800萬111同意3除1億9264萬同意好檢列1億20001億90001百111"},{"start":8455.044,"end":8458.905,"text":"檢列業務費8,558萬不是 1億9,264萬還有設備投資1億0706萬合起來是就全部合起來是您剛剛講的說1億9,264萬馬洪源對 同意好的 我們就檢列好 112"},{"start":8477.833,"end":8485.918,"text":"112 建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列 113113 就同意刪除610萬同意113 減列610萬好 114114 是併同115 同意刪除4770萬5000元"},{"start":8502.642,"end":8513.231,"text":"就兩個案就114是減列業務費7426部長講的數字是哪個數字因為1415合併114跟15合併就兩個案就刪除減列4770萬5000元那部長的意思是說114跟115本來我們這邊減列合起來9000多我們同意減4000"},{"start":8531.44,"end":8551.548,"text":"四千七百萬四千七百七十萬四千七百七十萬五千麻煩這裏有沒有意見 同意好 第一百一十一百一十五我們簡列四千七七零四千七百七十萬五千五千元稍微等一下"},{"start":8562.323,"end":8585.963,"text":"更正一下113案我們再重新它是分為業務費跟設備及投資那39萬是業務費571萬是設備以及投資通通簡列好 更正一下加起來610萬我們現在進入116案116案建請同意預算照列同意照列預算照列117117同意3.6600萬"},{"start":8592.455,"end":8595.357,"text":"同意117案檢列設備及投資6千萬元6千6百萬元跟證6千6百萬元118118就庫儲的部分是凍結1億以順便報告後記得凍值"},{"start":8619.98,"end":8644.294,"text":"不急不急慢慢來因為案子太多到118部長慢慢來不急您再看一下就庫儲的部分庫儲的部分鋼棚的部分鋼棚啊鋼棚鋼棚的部分部長您那邊修正完畢了嗎那文字好這邊翁曉琳委員所提案的一個修正文字不要急先請部長那邊您那邊是主決議還是"},{"start":8652.205,"end":8662.19,"text":"119 418是118減列38億 翁曉琳委員所提的這個你那邊文字出來了嗎如果你沒有 你先準備一下 我請翁曉琳委員發言好嗎好 翁委員請發言"},{"start":8666.009,"end":8677.965,"text":"這對國防部的這個案子我基本上是跟國防部應該是次長那邊討論過了之後我基本上仍然是不同意戰備飲用水所以就是三減戰備飲用水7億至於就說他們要蓋的軍車"},{"start":8683.277,"end":8707.682,"text":"的鋼棚就是放軍車的鋼棚那我這裡是免於同意但是就凍結一役然後請他們要就軍用鋼棚規劃及建制的事項提出書面報告然後並且在每個會期這個要提供相關的執行進度與成果報告我在講念一次"},{"start":8708.982,"end":8718.126,"text":"就是山檢 原山檢戰備用水7億元凍結軍車及用場整修1億元提供書面報告後對不起"},{"start":8725.982,"end":8743.155,"text":"凍結軍車及用場整修1億元並就軍用鋼棚規劃及建置提供書面報告使得凍支並與美會期要提供執行進度與成果報告"},{"start":8746.528,"end":8772.1,"text":"跟主席報告一下就是說就那個軍用的鋼銅的部分我們同意剛剛翁委員提出的文字但就那個水的部分因為翁委員是提議三減全部那119案那個馬委員的也有一樣的提案那我們是建請同意修三減4億元"},{"start":8775.802,"end":8794.878,"text":"那國安部提出來對於118案與119案佔備飲用水7億國安部同意咧現在反正因為你們有好幾個案嘛我們現在就是折衷就是說3減4億元那馬委員 廷安委員有沒有寶貴意見"},{"start":8797.236,"end":8819.67,"text":"就是7元3.4億保留3億有沒有意見 請因為這個部分戰備用水我們還是同意有3億元讓國防部可以去支用可是他不可以買這麼貴的水然後這個戰備用水希望其實應該要分布讓我們所有國軍在整個考量戰備上面的一個使用這個部分我們同意3.4億"},{"start":8821.031,"end":8838.865,"text":"馬委員同意三減四益馬委員有另外提出一個新增的主決我們就按照主決好的 那翁委員請表達意見好 那我也就是同意前面兩位委員的就三減四益我們第118案跟119案我們就是一零月水123"},{"start":8842.342,"end":8868.442,"text":"飲用水 那國安部的意思是同意3.4億元剩下來保留那各位黨團幹部有沒有保管 張委員請我們提的是123案啦因為我們之前去 如果用原來這個國安部的這個長效飲用水去算一瓶水大概要120塊啦那後來討論了嘛 我們是同意說3 2億啦不過現在部長既然已經佔成3 4億 我們也同意"},{"start":8869.79,"end":8875.256,"text":"那就是同意部長的意見就對了吧好 那118 119 123引用稅我們保留3億元嗎凍結4億 減列4億元 這樣就好了對 減列4億"},{"start":8885.356,"end":8907.277,"text":"沒有 那個還有一個軍車集中廠同意凍結一億嘛凍結一億新台幣好不好對 就是凍結一億提出書面報告然後並以每會期提供執行進度與成果報告對 完全不 國安部完全同意嘛歐盟也沒有意見好 謝謝不好意思 再補充一下是書面報告就是要經同意後使得凍支沒有 沒有吧"},{"start":8907.797,"end":8931.436,"text":"沒有啦 沒有啦 就順便報告好 那就順便報告吧 使得公知然後在下面會議要提供相關的進度喔 我這邊也有寫好的好的 翁委員如果要相關資料麻煩請國防部配合 謝謝我們現在進入120案120案 建請同意預算照列好 請問提案的馬委員 請表達意見建議同意照列好 同意照列 121案"},{"start":8933.052,"end":8962.439,"text":"一百二十一萬民眾黨提案是因為發現那個週一的那個價格太讓人家你先不要急現在國安部表還如果他同意你的條件你就不用發言了因為就這個部分跟民眾黨團報告就是說這個案子是同這個一百一十四跟一百一十五案那這個案子在剛剛討論是已經同意三減四千七百七十萬五千元了"},{"start":8965.3,"end":8975.963,"text":"是不是能夠就因為刪減的數目要比這個民眾黨提出的要多好 現在張委員請教一下國防部表達我們在114案已經刪減了4000多萬已經大於您所提的這個檢列500萬您表達一些請"},{"start":8982.677,"end":8992.202,"text":"我先提醒國防部我們是支持這個國防的可是你看看喔剛剛那個水一瓶平均下來120塊太高了這邊桌子 這邊桌子這邊桌子換算以後一組5000 5000多塊錢椅子一張8000多塊錢"},{"start":9003.175,"end":9028.204,"text":"我是同意就是說我們用剛剛那個幅度去刪減不過要提醒國防部啦每一分錢都是人民的民脂民膏好不好不要從粥食 椅子然後到飲用水都這樣而且這個會排擠到其他的預算我們提醒第一個不要排擠其他預算好的 謝謝張委員的提醒非常寶貴的提醒 謝謝我們進入121案我們就這邊就不再處理了好嗎 好"},{"start":9034.093,"end":9051.255,"text":"那進入122案因為122案我們前面剛剛所討論的都是這個重要防護設施改善這個部分那麼剛剛前面都已經有同意刪減的數字了"},{"start":9052.556,"end":9073.106,"text":"對 那就這個部分是不是能夠麻煩民眾黨團這個部分能夠並同前面因為它這個是一個很大的一個包裹所以我們前面已經都提了我們再提醒兩件事第一個金額就像部長剛剛講非常的大"},{"start":9073.866,"end":9078.13,"text":"然後你年度預算裡面這個金額已經相關的預算已經這麼多了結果你現在又提了一個這麼400多億出來然後又是要密集去發包老實講現在國內有很多切工你現在一下要這麼多錢你會不會消化不了所以我們提醒先凍結30%你們提個專案報告看怎麼樣可以如期去凍工如期去完工我們再把這筆錢再放行好不好要不然你現在要這麼多錢老實講你也執行不了了"},{"start":9100.075,"end":9127.367,"text":"那個跟委員報告一下因為另外那個馬委員有提了一個主決議文就是是主決議嘛就是說這個各單位各單位所割開各子項目之預算執行那麼環境開標程序結標是標於結款除了工程物調管人工及原物料上場所需外計劃執行完畢後如果有剩餘的話就繳回國庫"},{"start":9128.507,"end":9150.603,"text":"那是不是我們就可以按照這樣子的主決於文來辦理就可以了我就是倒狗為鷹的嘛你應該是把它做好才要預算就不是你現在執行完了以後有問題又回繳那就回到我剛剛講的問題啦你就是變成會排擠到其他的預算嘛而且你又消化不了你應該是來報告說你有什麼方法確實可以確實的執行發包跟完工都可以我們再把錢給你嘛"},{"start":9151.624,"end":9157.174,"text":"對不對要倒狗為營反而這樣反而不好好不好如果要全部的案要再凍結我們沒辦法執行"},{"start":9159.909,"end":9188.483,"text":"不是 先凍結百分之三十你三個月內就來報告嘛同意以後就給你啦這個還是 凍結為什麼要有這個凍結就是要你去執行不要變成你剛剛部長你剛剛講的你後來消化不良然後這樣也延誤你自己的工程你再回過頭再去把錢繳回國庫這樣不對啦各位委員報告因為我們前面都已經有三減的金額了那如果要再凍結那我想我不曉得這兩個案要評統怎麼處理所以就三減的部分是不是前面都已經討論了那就這個部分我們就按照這個"},{"start":9190.709,"end":9194.144,"text":"組結一文的提案我們會努力來辦理這樣子好不好"},{"start":9199.484,"end":9226.315,"text":"齊凱是不是我們你這邊也用提案齁黨團這邊提說病檢列案這樣子喔 那個張齊凱委員是這樣前面113案檢列4千多萬所以就4千7百多萬所以說您後面還有馬委員 翁委員所講的這幾樣國安部這邊是大於這個數字的那所以說您如果能接受我們就要通過因為前面已經三檢我們動10%好不好本來動30動10%就好了那你這樣執行上沒有問題你三個月內趕快來報告完就給你"},{"start":9227.115,"end":9244.134,"text":"不是你我剛講過了很重要為什麼要凍結就是不要弄到後來你是像部長講的你消化不良這樣對你不好然後才會回來你要排擠到其他的預算嘛我們有很多預算很多的重要的事情要做啊那你趕快來報告只有凍死我們本來30先下降凍死趴可是在三個月內趕快來把它"},{"start":9245.555,"end":9257.981,"text":"你不要倒果為因來 只要部長你報告的是合理的真的可以達成你要這個預算的這個目的對不對那我們就趕快去解凍好不好122案張祺凱委員所提出來的就是凍結改為10%"},{"start":9261.002,"end":9281.492,"text":"然後提出書面報告之後使的動資請問國防部有沒有意見這個現在的凍結數到底是以什麼的凍結數來是以122案就是強化國土防衛能量那個因為它這個是一個很大項叫做中藥防護設施改善這樣大項那前面都已經有刪減了"},{"start":9283.055,"end":9303.064,"text":"那這個部長你意思是刪減那個要扣掉可以啦你420億去刪那個4000多刪完以後的10%現在怎麼會太多本來是38沒有 最重要是每一分錢都是民脂民膏更重要的就是剛剛講的你只要是合理的你可以切實可以執行進度的嘛要不然為什麼要省預算"},{"start":9305.006,"end":9313.8,"text":"立法委員就代表人民要看清每一分錢而且更重要你的工期你是提出預算是確實可以執行的嘛要如期完成啊不要像部長剛剛講的執行不完我才繳回來"},{"start":9317.443,"end":9343.525,"text":"部長 我跟你講啦你三個月來你三天提出真正可以達到你這個目標的到時候就放行可是你又拿出來的東西連民眾都不同意那立法院怎麼可能放行是不是這樣張委員這樣子好了這有一點困難因為這邊刪減數字太多到現在沒有辦法你要不然就一個定額例如我先凍結五一新台幣後面報告之後再凍資這樣國防部就很清楚否則他 現在他是會混亂"},{"start":9344.306,"end":9349.488,"text":"一個個量下來 例如凍結3億那5億啦 凍結5億之後經過書面報告之後 使得凍資這樣的話國防部很清楚 大家也都清楚國防部長應該凍結5億 這345億之前前面三四千多萬 您看能不能這就同意凍結5億經書面報告後 使得凍資可以"},{"start":9366.994,"end":9380.184,"text":"好 謝謝因為這樣的話大家腦袋都會清楚 OK第112項我們就凍結五億元新台幣經書面報告之後使得凍資好 我們現在123已經處理過我們進入124案124案因為那個前面的110"},{"start":9388.94,"end":9407.68,"text":"前面的120應該是120已經處理了然後18 119也都有處理了是不是就可以不要再處理因為剛剛也同意凍結對 好好123那個張委員張啟凱委員那就是前面我們凍結5億了嘛跟這個都有關我們就不再處理好嗎"},{"start":9409.838,"end":9423.611,"text":"好謝謝我們進入125案直通作業這個檢列優惠費2億請這個賴委員賴世保委員提的刪除2億這個部分因為我們在126案到131案"},{"start":9431.206,"end":9450.485,"text":"因為賴委員提的也是一個大項就是全部的資通作業環境及設備提升案那麼在1256案到131案所簡列的數字要大於這個2億是不是就並同那個後面就處理了大包小"},{"start":9451.145,"end":9478.475,"text":"顧部長的意思非常清楚1 2 5 1 2 6 1 2 71 2 8 1 2 9 1 3 0 1 3 1就以賴氏堡委員為基礎所謂檢列業務費兩億元如果可以兩億元不處理然後另外每個案子再按照馬委員的提案處理這樣會不會比較清楚一點好 那併在馬委員的後面來一併處理可以嗎好 沒有問題"},{"start":9481.448,"end":9488.916,"text":"我們1.25就不再處理了1.26就是建請同意我們併1.26跟1.29三個案子3減12億元"},{"start":9495.916,"end":9500.378,"text":"好 126 127 128 129沒有 126跟129126 129就兩個案3減12億元並案3減12億元那馬委員有沒有包括意見"},{"start":9511.684,"end":9531.309,"text":"同意好各位黨團幹部我們126案跟129案兩案減列12億元好好現在繼續127127案建請同意預算照列同意照列同意照列128建請同意預算照列同意照列好同意照列130同意3減20億元"},{"start":9534.471,"end":9545.074,"text":"剪裂21 馬委員同意剪裂21 130剪裂20億元好 進入131 建請同意預算照列同意照列131 132132這個已經跟蘇清泉委員討論同意下修凍結數是3000萬元然後書面報告後是個凍值"},{"start":9558.868,"end":9582.833,"text":"好 公安部跟提案書欽勸委員已經達成共識 凍結三千萬元於書面報告之後 使得凍資馬委員有沒有寶貴意見好 沒關係 你是召集委員 還是要問一下問習慣了好 沒意見 好 同意凍結三千萬元 好 謝謝加上書面報告好 謝謝"},{"start":9586.818,"end":9614.407,"text":"好 對不起 對不起 國安部這邊我們現在還有13加剛才修建的132之1跟132之2對 131之1跟13現在列為131之1 132之2兩個主決問都同意好 我們寫真列的131之1 132之2國安部這邊全部同意各位黨黨幹部沒有其他意見好 那麼我們現在要回到剛才一開始的第十案"},{"start":9618.481,"end":9638.636,"text":"呃 實案是不是建請同意預算照列好 第十案我們剛才都已經處理完畢該刪減 該凍結的我們第十案我們是不是建議我們就不再處理了好 同意照列好 同意照列那謝謝國防部 列席官員謝謝大家好 謝謝啊 好我們現在請財政部"},{"start":9709.81,"end":9725.614,"text":"好 謝謝財政部莊部長 各位財政部的官員我們現在進入 各位黨團幹部我們進入財政部主管國庫署133案現在已經達成共識改為主提案委員改成主決議請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見請部長請說明"},{"start":9729.143,"end":9749.741,"text":"謝謝 跟委員溝通後 同意改為主決議然後不凍結 然後改題書面報告好 謝謝 各位黨團跟媒體好 謝謝我們一三 謝謝財政部 謝謝部長 請回來 開心啊謝謝 謝謝 好好好謝謝啊 好好好我們進入第四案 教育部主管"},{"start":9759.845,"end":9766.131,"text":"謝謝 麻煩請教育部正部長請說明我們134沒有關係 請部長口頭說明一下謝謝主席 在134案我們歐委員"},{"start":9775.632,"end":9789.817,"text":"先說明 你說了嗎翁委員這個改動決五議員書面向立法院財政及相關委員會提出書面報告謝政部長說明 麻煩請翁委員請說明"},{"start":9790.802,"end":9806.126,"text":"是我想在這個案子上面我當時的是因為搭配了一個主決議那在這個主決議裡面我先講就是為什麼我這是要刪要刪減同時凍結教育部的所提出來的案子因為他們在針對"},{"start":9809.298,"end":9825.027,"text":"特別預算案裡面所補助的項目基本上這應該是在各個年度預算裡面所編列的即可可是他們這次又編列了這個項目是要來作為去補助各大專運銷的什麼"},{"start":9828.349,"end":9854.87,"text":"這個叫什麼雜資學雜費並沒有說特別要去幫助因為美國關稅政策受影響的家庭經濟弱勢的學生那麼所以我們當時的意思跟教育部那裡談的就是說我同意可以這個就是用凍結而不用刪減的方式但是在做成主決議的時候呢必須要將大部分的經費20%的經費要"},{"start":9857.192,"end":9873.217,"text":"補助給那些受經濟衝擊學生的就學負擔那麼可是現在就是教育部不同意我的主決議的內容所以我在這裡我就撤回我之前所說的書面所講的凍結5億那麼就是簡列刪除預算40億這可以可是就是凍結的話我還是要維持原來的30%"},{"start":9888.682,"end":9891.565,"text":"這邊 翁委員你們這邊 是 所簽的"},{"start":9899.368,"end":9928.312,"text":"簡列41這個要撤回跟委員報告我想在137案的一個主決議委員的這一個對經濟弱勢這一個學生因為關稅所造成的我們承諾絕對會全部的這一個給予這個生活的一個輔助我想這個是沒有問題的那另外委員在第三段裡面的說把這一個各補助各項的計畫培訓計畫改為計畫改為課程這我們也配合辦理"},{"start":9928.959,"end":9957.883,"text":"那有關獎學金博士班的獎學金這個部分是不是能夠著以著以就是說我們名列說不得低於8也就是說10%用來鼓勵我們這個博士班的獎學金我想委員的對這個博士生還有經濟弱勢這本來都是我們在既定我們的一個規劃裡邊那是不是能夠能夠同意有這樣的一些這一個文字上的一些修正"},{"start":9961.856,"end":9985.625,"text":"我想在這個部分因為當時的主決議裡面的三個大類第一個就是說希望能夠將這個提升大專校園校務經營的這個費用呢提撥至少不可以低於20%是要去資助那些家庭經濟弱勢的學生而且給予獎學金可是這個部分好像部長這裡不同意"},{"start":9986.645,"end":10007.077,"text":"跟委員報告可能訊息在傳遞上有一些落差我們原來因為以教育部來講我們現在手上的這個經濟弱勢的有大概11%那也就是說我們在這個11%裡面特別譬如說台城清教在經濟弱勢他事實上是沒有那麼多的這個學生的比較是屬於"},{"start":10008.678,"end":10034.467,"text":"中後段班的這些學校他反而是經濟弱勢的學生是比較多的所以我們是不是在一個總體整體來看當時才會想說是不是跟委員做這樣一個建議我們overall來看是大概有11%如果可以來講就不得低於10%這一個東西在整個執行上來講可能相對的是一個比較合理的大概做這樣的一個以上的補充說明"},{"start":10035.346,"end":10064.227,"text":"我想在這邊跟部長說明因為現在我們講的親韓學生他的條件基本上是相對嚴格的所以這次受到關稅衝擊的這些企業勞工們的經濟可能會影響他們的家庭經濟我認為條件要放寬如果條件放寬的話那當然可以申請的學生比例就會增加可是因為我們現在如果沒有壓個比例的話那我擔心最後這些錢全部都拿去補助給各大專院校的一般的校務費用"},{"start":10065.027,"end":10093.646,"text":"所以我本席认为说这样的比例基本上并不是一个很过分的我并没有说50%全部都要去补助给这些经济弱势的学生对那你现在是从11%然后提拨到20%本席是认为这是合理的那另外就是说在补助给高等教育人才永续发展促进计划因为你们这笔80亿的钱主要都是要给聘老师"},{"start":10094.546,"end":10120.236,"text":"平體老師 可是本來的用意特別預算的這個項目的用意是要去培養學生跟委員報告如果我們沒有優秀的師資我們怎麼能夠確保我們有一個對學生能夠提供相對高的一個品質我也跟委員報告因應這樣一個關稅事實上日本提出了一千億元的這樣的一個人才延攬"},{"start":10121.036,"end":10144.089,"text":"日幣1000億元的日幣那歐盟也提供了這個5億元的這一個人才延攬我想在這個部分我們總是希望對大學所可能增加儀器設備的一些這個支出跟人才培育上的一些因為產業上我們怎麼樣來這個協助大學並不是教育部要來拿這些錢"},{"start":10145.55,"end":10171.02,"text":"來教育部來使用而是基本上都是用來支持大學的發展那當然我們也可以了解委員對學生因為衝擊所帶來的這個生活上的一些需要的輔助以及博士生的一些獎學金如果委員堅持我當然我們就尊重配合辦理因為基本上我們都希望說能夠給高等教育有一個更好的一些支持的力量以上謝謝部長我在這裡我堅持謝謝"},{"start":10172.025,"end":10192.499,"text":"那個這樣子我們可能顯然要先處理137這個組決議之後再回過頭來這樣的話比較會比較順一點好不好137這個組決議我們先來處理翁委員所提的那現在張委員跟鍾委員想要發言是我們等137處理完畢之後還現在就要發言"},{"start":10194.974,"end":10198.801,"text":"因為剛剛部長跟翁委員都已經提到內容都是跟我們的135有關的135是特別針對"},{"start":10203.285,"end":10228.579,"text":"不是 我說剛剛他們兩個在講高等教育人才他們在講134都已經講到135這個案子我們是特別針對大專院校的這個精進產學合作計畫教學這一塊那部長有來溝通幾次我們肯定你的這個努力不過我現在提醒的就是我們去對照發現這次這個預算科目跟整個項目跟我們的年度預算重疊性太高例如說產學合作"},{"start":10229.738,"end":10255.129,"text":"培育研究經營計畫還有博士級研究人才培訓計畫跟年度預算都是一樣的所以我們就先凍結四億然後請來報告報告兩個重點一個就是你這個特別預算跟平常的年度預算常態有什麼差別還有你預期的這個結果計畫有什麼效果我們再來放行這個我們還沒處理到那裡可是他們兩個都已經講了你聽清楚我講話嘛"},{"start":10256.149,"end":10270.4,"text":"我們現在先把137組決議處理完再回到134然後再接下來關切的135好不好拜託這個軸線不要偏好不好總委拜託時間掌握一下我們現在看的是137案"},{"start":10272.381,"end":10289.832,"text":"那麼在這個組決議當中因為對於預算的金額都支持但是資用的結構卻有一些要求那我們可以理解其實剛剛歐委員提到的對於弱勢學生的體會跟支持我們是非常的認同"},{"start":10290.672,"end":10313.601,"text":"那至於說這個比例要多少因為剛剛的教育部說目前他們調查是11%那翁委員是覺得說好像他原來的提案是20%我覺得這裡有斟酌的空間那我是不是做一個建議因為後面包括第三項最後面一句話說急補助各項培訓機關剛剛教育部部長意思是說跟前面的這些內容是有些重複"},{"start":10314.321,"end":10332.932,"text":"那另外的第四項呢講注金額比例不得低於計劃金額的30%那我是想這樣好不好是不是可以請院長主席來讓我們在場的委員思考一下是不是對於弱勢學生的部分我們請教育部啊力道大一點來支持那至於呢其他的培訓"},{"start":10333.972,"end":10355.938,"text":"補助及各項培訓計畫或是說不得地域計畫的30%的部分呢是不是建請我們提案委員 翁委員這邊可以考量到教育部我們目前的有限資源有的要放在師資 有的放在其他部分那是不是我們就請他集中在照顧弱勢學生的部分那至於比例多少我是覺得可能要比原來的5%要多那至於是11%還是多少還是翁委員提的20%這個可以來斟酌"},{"start":10357.478,"end":10376.548,"text":"是不是這樣子好不好周嘉賓委員講的是有道理你現在數字統計是11%最低就是11%清函學生這個是不是要稍微高一點那您是不是看我們是同意的就是說如果能夠11%那委員如果堅持是說要20%我們就配合辦理"},{"start":10377.108,"end":10391.85,"text":"那其他兩個就不要了那就是現在教育部配合辦理不低於金額的20%那因此我們只137案教育部這邊主決議這邊是可以接受的是不是後面有兩個要調整後面兩個就不要了啦"},{"start":10392.33,"end":10402.137,"text":"但是後面還有兩個修正您就 董委員您看呢第三跟第四部長那裡已經同意了而且我再說明一下在第三點的後面的再培訓及補助各項培訓計畫我尊重教育部的意見就是變成再培訓課程"},{"start":10408.982,"end":10423.773,"text":"就是並針對受產業影響結構調整的勞工提供知識與技能的再培訓課程然後把後面的補助各項培訓計畫那個刪除但是第4點的部分真的我們現在各個大學裡面非常缺博士生是"},{"start":10424.754,"end":10445.765,"text":"對 如果沒有博士生的話怎麼會有老師所以我真的認為說是應該要多給一些經費然後能夠鼓勵我們台灣優秀的學生能夠留在國內讀博士所以也很希望部長能夠支持這個案子好嗎畢竟他這是特別預算他第四點就對博士班的獎金金額不得低於計畫30%您的看法請表達一點 謝謝"},{"start":10448.735,"end":10477.3,"text":"我們原來是因為教育部公務預算事實上也對博士班這一個部分也有一些已經有一些這一個加碼的一個那當然委員對博士生這事實上在高等教育的品質當然也很重要但我也希望說我們是不是還是有一個標準博士班的學生他真正在課業跟研究上的表現他要有一定的水準而不是齊頭式的一個平等我想在這個原則上我們來配合辦理"},{"start":10478.22,"end":10497.993,"text":"那這要怎麼把它文字化呢你這個講的像莎士比亞一樣你這要怎麼把它文字化呢是不是說在10億等於說10億元的一個我們用來支撐這個例如直接把數字10億元定出來那歐美尼卡直接教育部直接定一個數字可以嗎"},{"start":10499.097,"end":10526.885,"text":"這樣的話其實這筆預算金額是80億剛剛部長講的其實在現在這個例行性的計畫裡面就給大學老師什麼彈性薪資然後鼓勵新聘的老師這些預算都在年度預算就有了所以如果說依照剛剛部長的講法的話基本上也不是很合邏輯因為我們現在就是因應特別關稅然後考慮到就是也希望更多可能失業的勞工優秀的人才可以來"},{"start":10527.845,"end":10555.544,"text":"我們在公務預算今年15年就有編10億就是用來加碼這個支持博士班那如果這10億等於我們就有double確實對博士生來講我想這個事實上他有特殊的不是那你這樣的話你對於師資延攬的部分你本來在公務預算裡面就有你現在double的還不只是還不只是double你現在已經是多了4倍或是5倍更多所以我的想法真的"},{"start":10556.864,"end":10580.455,"text":"現在的意思就是說我們希望這比81的經費能夠多用在學生其實整個概念當時是高等人才教育培養而不是說是高等師資教育培養是圓覽人才我們必須要跟委員報告不要急嘛 等一下一定會讓你發言因為他現在已經到了最關鍵了好不好歐委員那像教育部所提出來增列10億你對這個數字覺得太低是不是"},{"start":10583.703,"end":10587.046,"text":"那您覺得要怎麼樣 你可以現在提出來如果說這樣的話 妥協的話就是20億啦"},{"start":10590.263,"end":10618.408,"text":"對 我覺得說還是要 真的要鼓勵好 二十億接近百分之二十五囉接近百分之二十五 好歐委員提出來的建議就是直接就是二十億新台幣就不講%直接講金額因為部長提的是金額嘛 十億那歐委員認為加匯這些博士班學生直接把它double 直接二十億在剛剛您說的那個還有一個十億加起來就三十億了"},{"start":10618.968,"end":10647.999,"text":"您看這樣可不可以接受沒有沒有 那另外一個 另外一個幫助博士公寓 另外一個我們來配合辦理好那翁委員請問一下教育部現在配合辦理您有沒有意見沒有意見好 我們現在針對第四點高等教育人才永續發展促進計畫我們改為最後一行鼓勵優秀人才報告博士班那"},{"start":10649.557,"end":10667.87,"text":"此項獎註金額不得低於20億元新台幣以提升整體高等教育品質教育部可以同意 歐盟也可以同意各位黨團剛剛有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見 副委員請其實這個部長"},{"start":10672.745,"end":10699.352,"text":"韓院長已經一直在做球給你我不曉得你為什麼反應為什麼這樣子很奇怪轉不過來歐文言的提示已經很清楚他在大學裡面非常熟認的了解現在校園需要什麼學生需要什麼所以提出包括親韓學生要如何支持博士生要如何支持畢竟是在特別預算因為你們"},{"start":10701.941,"end":10713.051,"text":"長年預算本身就有這些相關的經費那既然在特別預算裡面更希望能夠支持到這些需要被支持的學生所以這一案137案也剛經過部長 公務委員溝通以後"},{"start":10719.699,"end":10740.289,"text":"這個對博士生的獎助金額從80億的30%已經調降為25%我想其他的部分我們就不要再提其他的意義好不好因為這個直接又會回到前面央委提案的134案我想那137案就照雙方現在協議的這樣子來進行我們134案原則上"},{"start":10744.691,"end":10756.679,"text":"這個案就不存在了沒有關係 我們先確定137131組決議 大家沒有意見 我們就修正通過好 我們現在回到134動5億 動5億"},{"start":10766.741,"end":10775.086,"text":"那歐元提出凍結5億就不刪減了然後經過報告之後使得動之書面報告之後使得動之 政部長這邊沒有意見好 134案我們就凍結5億元加書面報告好 謝謝我們進入135張其凱委員所關切的剛才說凍結4億元張其凱委員已經發言過請問教育部有沒有表達意見"},{"start":10794.67,"end":10798.892,"text":"好 教育部配合辦理我們135萬凍結4元我們進入136案郭國文委員改為主決議好謝謝"},{"start":10820.252,"end":10822.795,"text":"謝謝教育部正部長跟列席的官員 謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝院長 謝謝各位謝謝 辛苦大家"},{"start":10837.578,"end":10856.205,"text":"來 拱部長 請 謝謝我們進入經濟部138案國民黨謝依鳳委員所提出請拱部長 請表達意見我們遵照辦理好 138案遵照辦理139 謝依鳳委員所提出 請拱部長 請表達意見也是遵照辦理好 謝謝 140"},{"start":10857.932,"end":10878.471,"text":"也是中招辦理謝謝 141也是中招辦理謝謝 142也是中招辦理好 謝謝 143143 修正文字 剛剛跟委員有討論過了跟張機閣委員也討論過了修正文字就是後面委員手上兩個月會把那個寫得更清楚兩個月內提書面報告嘛"},{"start":10880.553,"end":10903.812,"text":"那143案的話呢經濟部表達已經跟黨團提案黨團溝通完畢了兩個月之內會提出更清楚的說明那沒有問題我們就通過修正通過了好 謝謝現在我們進入第三項國際貿易署144144我們是不是可以希望可以改正組決議144好的"},{"start":10907.555,"end":10933.592,"text":"因為那個黃委員他是比較在問說這個因為我們這個經費是要防制席產地的他在問說那這個席產地是我們主動編進來還是美國人要求那我們是說因為美國那時候他在對外講的時候就是川普總統對外講的時候就是對等談判之外如果有發現席產地的話要加徵40%"},{"start":10935.475,"end":10962.353,"text":"的稅那這樣的話我們就要去防止這個被加徵40%的狀況所以特別就要有這樣的經費來防止這樣的做法好 謝謝那部長提出來改為主決議那個張祺凱台灣民眾黨團陳昭志委員的意見請表達這剛剛經過溝通我們沒有同意啦因為這個很嚴重是牽扯到息產力的問題好不好我們先依照我們的凍結這個凍結數然後三個月內來財政跟經濟委員會報告完以後"},{"start":10965.695,"end":10990.235,"text":"才可以動之經濟部這邊關於這個凍結三億四千萬三個月之內提出書面報告可以接受嗎人書面報告嗎張啟凱委員他現在經濟部接受在三個月之內提出書面報告之後使得凍之您有沒有意見 沒有意見 好"},{"start":10994.952,"end":10998.661,"text":"就照你的意思啊你听我念完不要急你看我眼睛嘛"},{"start":10999.611,"end":11028.809,"text":"你這搞一百多個案子好不好 你每個案子這樣慢一點就現在這個經濟部已經同意凍結你們所提出三億四千萬剩下三個月之內提出書面報告之後 使得凍資請問張其凱委員有沒有意見好 好 謝謝一百四十四案 大家其他沒有意見我們修正通過一百四十五案經濟部請表達意見報告主席一百四十五跟一百四十六是同一個項目可不可以一起定案好了可以可以 可以請"},{"start":11029.349,"end":11047.237,"text":"那黃委員他是說我們在這個經費裡面有編了委託智庫來針對國際情勢變化的這個影響是不是可能會跟平常的預算有一些重複那我們是認為就是說因為"},{"start":11049.017,"end":11072.389,"text":"這對典關稅還有國際情勢在兩年當中它是滾動式在變化所以我們要請智庫幫忙的頻率會比較高另外也就是下一個案子就是說我們也要透過這個智庫跟其他國家的智庫有很好的連結因為他們也在算這個事情他們也在關心這個事情所以有必要這樣的出國經費讓他們去做這樣的聯繫大概是這個樣子"},{"start":11076.671,"end":11100.776,"text":"你現在講完你還沒有講出所以希望改成主決議或者是我們提書面報告把這個講清楚因為145台灣民眾黨案提出來是減裂五千萬那146案台灣民眾黨案提出來是凍結兩億合起來是減裂五千加上凍結兩億原劣數是十億那您這樣的話您是希望兩個案都改為主決議"},{"start":11101.656,"end":11122.745,"text":"是是是那張棋凱委員請表達意見剛剛我們已經做了同意因為院長剛剛開口這兩個案子我們就非常堅持我們一定要送到立法院經濟委員會同意以後才可以動之堅持我們原來的提案 謝謝也就是說第145萬張棋凱委員您認為是凍結還是減劣145 凍結好 你這邊寫的是減劣改為凍結好不好 是不是這樣子你原來是減劣喔等一下等一下對 你是減劣喔"},{"start":11132.25,"end":11139.334,"text":"然後你146類是凍結145案是有檢列也有凍結兩個同時存在的然後146案只有凍結所以說145的那個檢列5000要堅持要檢列5000凍結1000還是要凍結1000另外146凍結2000000"},{"start":11154.924,"end":11174.94,"text":"是這個意思 那各位黨團 其他幹部有沒有中委員請那個簡略5000的部分是不是因為你既然是要來報告了嘛那是不是都改成凍結因為反正來報告後才能確定要不要給他嘛都改成凍結 這樣一次處理事實上我們在委員會的時候討論已經刪掉1000億了1000萬 1000多萬"},{"start":11181.142,"end":11203.751,"text":"張委員如果說全部改為凍結就分成三筆五千萬 一千萬跟兩億元通通改為凍結啦改組決議嘛對 就是改為凍結一百四十五萬 凍結一千萬一百四十六萬 凍結兩億元然後經過三個月之內經過報告之後 使得凍資"},{"start":11206.533,"end":11212.217,"text":"那各位黨團幹部145案我們凍結1000萬元146案凍結2億元然後"},{"start":11226.86,"end":11242.367,"text":"經過書面報告之後 三個月之內提出書面報告之後 使得動之請問各位黨黨幹部有沒有意見沒有意見 經濟部有沒有意見沒有意見 好 我們進入147組決議請經濟部表達一點好 147 我們組決議我們就通過現在勞動部 謝謝 國務部長 謝謝經濟部官員 謝謝"},{"start":11261.67,"end":11267.437,"text":"好 謝謝我們進入148案148案原列數101凍結20%台灣民眾黨團提出請問勞動部洪部長請表達意見"},{"start":11275.403,"end":11292.219,"text":"跟這個主席還有各位委員說明因為這個其實是波普勞保的100億元波普勞保基金的100億元那基本上這波普勞保基金其實也是在我們之前通過的特別條例裡面"},{"start":11292.879,"end":11308.08,"text":"其實在特別條例裡面的第三條的第一項第七款裡面就寫到波普勞保條例所以我們是希望說是不是這部就不要凍結可不可以改成主決議好 請提案台灣民眾黨團張委員請表達意見"},{"start":11311.204,"end":11336.743,"text":"請陳委員 陳昭志委員請表達意見洪部長你對我跳票幾次了你答應的都不算數我們在處理勞動部的預算的時候我就一直強調這個勞保勞保從106年就開始入不敷出啊然後迄今連續8年都斥資你知道勞工嚇死了他們就是依靠未來的這個整個基金要來支撐他們的最後的這個退休後生活你113年度的那個這個收支決算短處660億"},{"start":11339.746,"end":11367.704,"text":"114年到現在在7月底是短處將近400億所以我上次在這個勞動部這個解凍案的時候我通過附帶決議當時就說你看我勉為其難答應你說就把這個凍結的部分我記得是凍結10%或50%蠻大的一個數字那蘇昭偉在那邊一直折衝所以你答應我三個月內要研議政府最終責任及負責任入法你說好啊結果時間過去了你根本不理我啊"},{"start":11368.044,"end":11391.324,"text":"我沒有 你今天怎麼來面對我 我說明第一個因為我知道其實好幾個委員很關注這個政府最終責任那個入勞保條例的部分那基本上我其實因為這個民眾黨團林國成委員很一直在在意這件事情我其實有跟林委員跟民眾黨也都有說"},{"start":11392.785,"end":11416.138,"text":"院長在院會我們也有講到就是說如果這部分這個立法院要來排審那我們會持開放的態度我們會持開放的態度所以這個其實就是我們的態度所以關於因為我知道有幾個委員很在意這個最終責任入法的部分我們持開放態度陳教授委員請補充意見"},{"start":11416.874,"end":11445.404,"text":"沒有你不是當時是你今天的講話跟那天差很大這個就是說你當時覺得困難重重所有民進黨的立委都在幫你說話結果這個多困難事多困難事怎麼我提了一個這麼不可思議的問題是這件事其實民進黨在野的時候就提了整個勞工大概900多萬要你等著這句話你現在用所謂的挹注有點錢就趕快撥一下有點錢撥這個我們要的是一個真的常態化入法的常態化要穩定的機制"},{"start":11446.224,"end":11451.286,"text":"這個是全勞工在7萬多而且你們動不動就告訴大家都要破產了要破產了那你叫這群勞工怎麼辦所以你那時候有答應我你至少開始規劃你覺得很困難我還鼓勵你你這個年紀輕輕去當上勞動部部長是勞運出身你就開始寫開始規劃你答應我啦你今天告訴我說要入法我們也不反對反對啊那個執政就在委員會全部就翻倒我啊就我一個人在撐啊"},{"start":11474.158,"end":11493.435,"text":"跟委員報告我說這個議題在總諮詢的時候在院會裡面被詢跟院長一起被詢的時候我們其實就有表達追蹤責任入法這件事情我們就是持開放的態度"},{"start":11495.257,"end":11518.443,"text":"陳昌志委員他現在持開放的態度那我再請你再發言他還是持開放態度那現在您覺得這個凍結20%他希望改為主決這個真的是給勞工的錢啊沒關係陳昌志委員請三次發言沒問題謝謝讓我就是繼續講什麼叫開放態度又跟邱若凡一樣你們又不給願版了你們沒有版嗎就用我們的版嗎用民眾黨的版嗎"},{"start":11518.803,"end":11545.459,"text":"因為其實幾個委員都有搬你所謂的開放你就是不負責任你從來沒有對岸提出這個執政黨不要再搞這件事我們太多重要法案你就是你們看怎麼解決到時候表決輸了回去就反正輸了誰叫我們人數不夠難怪要再搞一次大罷免對不對不是這樣你跟我說開放請你解釋什麼叫開放開放是什麼意思我們其實現在我們的政策上面的態度其實就是政府的最終負起最終責任那提出來啊"},{"start":11546.4,"end":11560.337,"text":"對我們其實現在政策上就是政府負起最終責任不是政策那要把這幾個字放到勞保條例裡面那把放進去那在這個放入法這件事情我們不會表達反對我們是持開放的態度"},{"start":11564.622,"end":11591.421,"text":"主席這個問題不解我們民眾黨的態度就堅持就是凍結然後就你看你要不要寫嘛你要解凍你就是報告要好好寫你到現在都不教功課啊你答應我的事你都沒有做功課也不教我們已經寫了我們已經教了時間過了我怎麼不知道我們怎麼沒收到在8月底的時候其實就寫了我們應該就有8月底8月底我們的報告就有了好 謝謝我們現在接下來陳培宇委員請發言"},{"start":11593.007,"end":11619.589,"text":"那個謝謝兩位剛剛的對話但是我想部長其實剛剛已經很有誠意的解釋這個錢其實就是直接撥補勞保基金那部長也沒有逃避責任那部長也有跟陳委員有認證的交代那不只是開放態度啦那八月底的報告是不是就請部長待會說明請部長說明一下那拜託陳委員再聽一下因為這個錢就是直接撥補那個基金所以拜託委員你再聽一下好不好 謝謝"},{"start":11621.397,"end":11643.146,"text":"根文因為這個錢真的是勞保金這都是100億百分之百全部都是給勞工的錢那你這個因為我跟根文說因為這個錢其實照理來說應該是在明年的1月1號就要撥補進去了所以如果今天有任何一個凍結的話就等於會有一筆錢被凍結在撥補它沒有辦法在明年1月1號撥補進去的狀況之下"},{"start":11645.367,"end":11661.418,"text":"其實我覺得這並不是一件好事所以我很希望說我們對於最終責任入法這個議題我們是持開放的態度的那如果立法院要來排審那我覺得大家就來做這些相對應的審查那我們基本上就是開放的"},{"start":11662.645,"end":11691.378,"text":"可不可以以後不要再講撥補這兩個字了我們就是不要你撥補啊就是要你常態要入法啊就是要入法總要有一天開始啟動啊現在已經2025年了你要啟動啊要啟動入法的規劃機制啊開始要入法啊那你始終如果不要再講開放也不要講撥補好嗎就是不安心嘛就是你對勞工沒有辦法交代嘛你為什麼不把責任扛起來呢就是扛責任嘛政府對你扛起來就是撥補嘛"},{"start":11694.96,"end":11711.713,"text":"政府一定會扛起勞保基金的責任這是一定的政府不扛沒有人扛政府一定扛我們一定扛這是毫無意義的事情毫無意義的事情我在這裡可以把包票那個陳昭志委員洪部長這樣子講您那個這樣子"},{"start":11716.074,"end":11733.749,"text":"我要求那個就是你們要提出願板你們提出對案出來就是那個最終責任如果提對案出來看多久你要多久可以出來那洪部長這邊願板這邊您可以用口頭先表達一下沒關係你既然說政策是這樣開放你的開放我等一下這個這個我可不可以在私下跟委員溝通一下這件事情你功課還在顧喔"},{"start":11734.97,"end":11763.053,"text":"因為現在已經快六點鐘了所以我就不休息一直往前再往下開會你現在沒有辦法休息再私下溝通你就是能不能提一個願板出來這樣好你提願板之前你一定負責跟陳昭之委員進行溝通這樣會不會比較好一點我再重複一遍你提願板之前因為這個不是不是他不喜歡找我這個議題這個議題基本上我們就是持開放的態度委員會如果要審我們就大家就審然後"},{"start":11765.604,"end":11791.349,"text":"該怎麼樣子入法就這樣我們的態度就是這樣子我們沒有要阻擋這件事也沒有要反對這個概念覺得他這樣夠不夠開放就是怕他開放開放就是空白的意思就是不要他這樣講開放跟撥補我們不會表達反對在這個案上我們不會表達反對撥補多少看情形那這樣的話我只能裁決保留如果要這樣的話我只能裁決保留可是這個這個一定是撥補的"},{"start":11797.292,"end":11808.444,"text":"這個 柯總召我們要留點這個功德給真的我們的後代讓他們安心啊遲早要入法你也知道這個一定要入法的嗎天天這樣做不是 你現在的提案才是功德啊"},{"start":11811.507,"end":11822.962,"text":"你們要解決真的要去幫勞工的話就是真的要趕快不只入法你要確實去做你就連一個案子都不提嘛我們第148案保留我們第149案勞動部表達意見 謝謝"},{"start":11828.206,"end":11839.05,"text":"這個案子其實是國民黨團提的其實也是勞保基金的部分我們也是希望能夠爭取是可以有組決議我們願意其實來寫書面報告把這個書面報告"},{"start":11845.412,"end":11864.659,"text":"後面有一個括號 含勞保基金財務改善因應對策原本是寫含勞保基金改革之其成與方案把它改成含勞保基金財務改善因應對策我們願意來寫一個這樣的報告希望能夠爭取改組決議謝謝 國民黨團請表達意見我想國民黨"},{"start":11873.264,"end":11889.541,"text":"對這次的特別預算已經廣開扇門我覺得這個洪部長不要得寸進尺一百億只凍結一億最終的目的就是要你到立法院來報告"},{"start":11892.216,"end":11919.218,"text":"年金改革的期程跟方案剛剛陳昭志委員講了半天就是你什麼時候要提出你的方案出來不是你都開放什麼叫開放要拿你的布板要送過來嘛不是放話放得很好聽嘛那現在只凍結一百億只凍結一億還不是刪除欸只是要你一個態度而已你連這個態度都不給立法院"},{"start":11920.236,"end":11942.432,"text":"我覺得他們如果這樣的話 都願會處理啦黃班長現在就是說大家國民黨團 台灣民眾黨都希望看到院版的這個關於這個最終責任已經很明顯你可以再表達一下意見我們對於最終責任入法就是開放的態度然後我們不會表達反對好 鍾委員請"},{"start":11944.243,"end":11961.578,"text":"我是這樣的因為剛148案同樣的事情我們討論那麼久那如果149案如果假設跟主席詢問一下如果149案呢這個洪部長說那就凍結1億那我們提個專案報告使得凍資那如果這個同意過了那148案是不是也是比照辦理呢"},{"start":11962.779,"end":11973.318,"text":"對 如果說以異動節報告後專案報告時的動之就可以了那你前面的148案不同政黨提出不同的不要混為一談因為這個同一件事情嘛同一件事情沒有錯"},{"start":11974.957,"end":12004.177,"text":"兩件 兩個提案都是要求他提出來但是從頭到尾都還在講都還在講 講得很漂亮那你院版提出來嘛不要假裝聽不懂嘛院版提出來這兩個案子都可以談因為149案裡面講得很清楚嘛就是勞動部向立法院財政及相關會提出專案報告嘛含勞保年金的改革之期程與方案如果勞動部做到了這一點那一役呢就動之了"},{"start":12004.717,"end":12026.46,"text":"那但是我們148案現在保留到院會如果院會又通過了那這兩個就打架啦謝謝鍾委員意見那洪部長那我們149案就保留了好我們進入150案都保留了150案的話主決議我們現在有洪孟凱委員請勞動部表達意見"},{"start":12027.388,"end":12034.294,"text":"這個案子其實已經跟洪孟愷委員溝通過了 他已經同意了好 修正通過好 現在我們進入151案這個"},{"start":12039.705,"end":12062.946,"text":"151案請檢列2000萬 凍結400萬 請勞動部表達意見這案是針對我們其實在這一次因應關稅跟國際經貿情勢下給勞工的這個就業支持的方案的宣傳的經費那我這邊想要補充其實在從上半年開始我們其實跟工會大概幾十場的座談"},{"start":12063.907,"end":12088.53,"text":"其實很多的勞工朋友跟工會都是不斷的跟我們說因為這個勞工朋友其實這個獲得資訊的方式其實真的因為大家可能有不同的階層或不同類型的勞工所以都希望我們要擴大宣傳讓更多勞工朋友知道尤其是受到關稅影響的勞工朋友知道其實我們可以提供給他們的一些支持跟支持他們的方案"},{"start":12089.21,"end":12112.139,"text":"所以在這裡面我們編了四千萬元那我們很希望其實這四千萬是可以不用動山的那這次在這個委員會裡面其實也有一個當時有通過一個案子是併案是刪除兩百萬那我們是不是希望就能夠併委員會的提案就好也是針對這個就是針對宣傳的經費這樣子謝謝老鄧不意見請台灣民眾黨人請表達意見"},{"start":12116.141,"end":12134.14,"text":"高關稅衝擊之下已經多少人無奈的辛苦的在過無薪假了結果我們的勞動部竟然去編了四千萬要去做媒體宣傳跟政策的這個宣導錢不是應該用在勞工跟年輕人身上嗎"},{"start":12135.293,"end":12164.236,"text":"每一分錢都非常的重要這次為了支持勞工我們一共給了新台幣150億結果這次我們一翻開裡面竟然發現了還要拿4千萬去做宣傳有那麼多的產業已經是那麼慘了有多少人是減班休息的第一個你現在應該是尊責開支嘛你怎麼還去做宣傳更嚴重的是什麼歷年來看到你們這個所謂的媒體宣傳會拿出去都做了什麼"},{"start":12165.359,"end":12171.927,"text":"特定的媒體這是一個第二個產出的都是那種點滴率很低或者觸及力很低的還浪費了公堂"},{"start":12173.617,"end":12195.485,"text":"這筆預算到目前為止很多人看到是非常不是只有嘆氣是憤怒的所以我們很明確的談民眾黨要求把這四千萬砍掉一半兩千萬另外凍結四百萬請提出專案報告把錢用在刀口上幫助真正受到衝擊的產業還有無薪假的這個民眾此不要再插支摸粉那個"},{"start":12198.809,"end":12225.62,"text":"我先問一下勞動部議員再請總委好不好黃部長請表達一下跟委員說明其實現在我們最大的因為我們有一個政策出去勞工朋友要知道或者是企業要知道他們如果受到影響我們其實提供給他們申請的資源或者是他們要知道這件事情他們才知道要來申請他才有辦法可以取得這個資源跟權利所以我們這個宣傳的經費就是用在這個地方"},{"start":12226.892,"end":12252.359,"text":"這也是為什麼這麼多的勞工朋友因為我們是跟他們座談他才知道可是很多勞工朋友跟我們說可是不是每一個受影響的勞工朋友都能夠座談其他的可能不一定知道不一定都能夠從新聞上面知道他可能用多元的方式包括我們可能會在比方工業區讓他知道說如果你受到關稅衝擊如果你減班休息的話你要到哪裡去尋求協助"},{"start":12252.779,"end":12274.891,"text":"你要怎麼尋求協助這些事情都必須要靠宣傳都必須要靠媒宣而這個錢是拿來用在這個地方的他不是用在辦活動不是用在哪裡都不是是用在讓資訊能夠傳達讓勞工朋友知道他可以怎麼得到協助的這是這筆錢的最重要的用意在這裡所以OK好我們現在請中委員請發言"},{"start":12276.524,"end":12293.235,"text":"謝謝主席我想這個媒體宣傳這過過幾年來在我們的預算審查好像把它特定污名化如果把媒體宣傳變成是正確資訊傳播或是對抗假訊息我想大家的感受就不同我舉個例我們這次普發先進1萬元總共編列了2360億"},{"start":12299.4,"end":12326.16,"text":"每個人都一萬元那心想啊這個普派先進一萬媒體連篇累讀的報導哪個民眾不知道大家就等著11月要領一萬元照說呢是不需要奔列任何媒宣費用的但是我們看一看這段時間以來網路上看一看媒體上看一看社群上看一看有多少詐騙廣告每天傳到你的手機裡面告訴你說如果你要領一萬塊趕快什麼方式輸入呢我就幫你趕快領出來"},{"start":12327.961,"end":12332.456,"text":"请问针对这样的一个假讯息的轰炸诈骗广告的轰炸"},{"start":12333.598,"end":12358.089,"text":"正確的行政機關要不要提供正確的資訊呢需要啊所以我們就是需要一個資訊正確出現的傳播費啊所以呢我們這150億要給勞工的費用你是不是應該要給他提供正確的資訊讓他可以查證免得被詐騙所以我們是覺得說沒宣費用不要把它污名化或者原罪化沒宣的好像就是給業務單位拿去亂花 沒有"},{"start":12358.749,"end":12385.302,"text":"就是要去抵抗避免假訊息 詐騙訊息來詐騙我們的勞工我想這一點做個說明謝謝嘉賓委員發言然後我們請陳佩玉委員請好 不用請各位 請沒心肺啦不用汙名化他本身夠黑了啦連你們的卓院長都說過度集中對不對都是哪些哪些親力的媒體拿去這每個頁都要披露的啊而且後來效果怎麼樣大家也都看得到啊你們"},{"start":12388.263,"end":12407.39,"text":"這都明明確確的好 更重要的我今天講為什麼台灣民眾這麼堅持要砍掉一半你四千萬不會太多嗎這是一個點第二個你長久的效果就是不髒現在更重要更重要的那麼多人已經在放無薪假了你這筆錢每一分錢都要去用在勞工跟青年的身上嘛你現在還去做媒宣"},{"start":12409.454,"end":12432.028,"text":"所以我們現在堅持你就砍一半然後另外凍結了400萬來做專案報告顯然勞動部是沒有辦法接受那本案保留好 謝謝152案請勞動部表達意見 謝謝好那152案是翁曉林委員的案子那這個案子翁曉林委員是要把150億凍結30%"},{"start":12435.117,"end":12456.465,"text":"那這個凍結30%其實45億那這真的是蠻多的所以我們很希望是不是第一個還是能夠降低這個凍結的金額那因為這個150億真的是絕大多數都是給而且他都是給受衝擊的勞工部長您覺得能接受凍結多少你直接講我們這樣立刻就可以判定能不能夠3%3%對"},{"start":12460.762,"end":12472.07,"text":"好沒關係你提出來沒關係好謝謝因為我們提案呢翁委員也在現場請翁委員表達一些好那麼針對勞動部這次他提出的特別預算裡面又"},{"start":12473.258,"end":12499.991,"text":"又放了支持勞工安定就業150億元事實上我們知道之前勞動部對於就業安定基金的使用本來就有很多的爭議而且也不符合一些法定的用途然後還有一些追繳等等這些問題所以在這次他們在支持勞工安定就業項目底下所編列的預算又跟年度的常態預算多所重疊"},{"start":12500.871,"end":12526.34,"text":"那麼根據立法院預算中心的評估報告裡面他們這次的這個所編列的十項計畫就是在特別預算當中支持勞工安定就業項目底下編列的十項計畫大部分都是既有的措施或者是說在COVID-19的時候當時他們所提供的相關的措施所以並沒有什麼新意那麼更何況就是在"},{"start":12527.6,"end":12542.567,"text":"支援青年就業計劃裡面他們是特別針對第一次找工作的穩定的青年提供一些穩定就業計劃可是第一次找工作他根本就還不是勞工然後你就要去給他補助這也不符合就業安定基金的使用的規則"},{"start":12545.188,"end":12549.811,"text":"然後至於就是說勞動部其實從109年到112年當時辦理很多因應COVID-19的疫情相關措施那麼經過監審計部的查核那麼當時也有一些申請補助或津貼的領售人他根本不符合計劃的規定或者是有重複領取的性質的問題"},{"start":12571.082,"end":12587.228,"text":"所以本席認為說就目前就業安定基金它目前的規模還有430億其實這430億就已經足以去因應這次因為關稅衝擊的失業的勞工所以不需要就是"},{"start":12588.593,"end":12605.563,"text":"有這麼多的錢那麼同時對於他們所提出來的方案根本也不清不楚因此本席這邊提議就是要凍結百分之三十等他們提供更詳細的規劃之後呢使得凍值以上您百分之三十已經很清楚就是說紅布草期的百分之三你有沒有意見我當然有意見當然有意見差十倍所以你維持百分之三十不變"},{"start":12614.219,"end":12630.091,"text":"因為我之前提出的我之前提出給洪部長這邊參考就是說凍結10%可是他不接受那麼所以呢基本上我就維持我原來30%像翁小林委員的意思是說我們他提出來凍結10%勞動部請表達一下可不可以凍結5%好不好"},{"start":12638.666,"end":12661.462,"text":"因為這真的是都是給勞工朋友的錢這不是用在勞工部剛剛翁曉寧委員在講的話我有幾部分想回應第一個剛剛在講到青年尋職為什麼有青年初次尋職因為當關稅受衝擊的時候很多的企業他一開始他會開出給比方說就業博覽會裡面的一些職缺他可能就會鎖起來"},{"start":12662.362,"end":12683.385,"text":"所以他可能會對於青年找工作這件事情會有影響所以我們特別規劃給初次找工作的年輕人給他幫助的經費那第二個剛剛翁小英委員跟翁委員講的事情是因為現在關稅的衝擊的影響跟平常常態性的狀況真的是不一樣"},{"start":12685.382,"end":12709.16,"text":"現在大家都很關心因為關稅衝擊所造成的減班休息的狀況這些減班休息的狀況我們就是希望能夠用特別預算有多一點的經費包括我們也加碼給大家的薪資的津貼這是為什麼我們要編列這樣的錢的原因非常感謝洪部長說明因為還有好幾個單位在後面都在stand by不好意思而且現在"},{"start":12710.137,"end":12720.538,"text":"翁委員現在勞動部提出5% 你是堅持10%有沒有可能 因為現在我們快達成共識了如果能夠達成共識我們就達成 達不成就送"},{"start":12725.578,"end":12752.685,"text":"我要再強調就是說因為你們之前的一些計畫執行率非常低再加上現在就業安定基金本來就都還有430多億你們就已經去可以足以用原來的經費去支應這些受衝擊的勞工那現在呢這150億裡面然後凍結30%的部分你已經修正為10%了我現在修正10%我已經是降很多了否則的話我基本上是不同意的同意10%好"},{"start":12753.865,"end":12754.866,"text":"謝謝 我們151案 152案我們凍結10%"},{"start":12765.825,"end":12790.874,"text":"是院長除了就是凍結10%之外呢我這裡還有說希望這個這個希望勞動部能夠救受關稅衝擊的企業勞工提出專案因應輔助計畫向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告這不是被唐詩山白手念那麼長根本記不住現在我們先把阿拉伯數字確定好不好我們現在就是大家經過這麼辛苦我們達成凍結10%各黨團員沒意見"},{"start":12796.141,"end":12823.235,"text":"沒有意見 我們先確定151保了我宣布過了151保了 現在152啊你越講我越糊塗151都翻頁了 現在152我們經過那麼辛苦就希望達成一個共識嘛凍結10% 勞動部接受 公委員也接受那這個文字咧 我想我們再發下去請文字修正 勞動部來跟各位黨團幹部來參考一下好不好 好"},{"start":12837.693,"end":12848.66,"text":"好就跟剛才一樣好 文字可以好 勞動部接受好 謝謝謝謝勞動部 謝謝接下來農業部辛苦啊辛苦謝謝洪部長各位勞動部官員辛苦大家請農業部陳部長 謝謝好 我們進入153案153案農業部陳部長"},{"start":12860.478,"end":12861.783,"text":"我們153農業部主管 119歲 請問那個 修改啦"},{"start":12869.847,"end":12893.297,"text":"翁曉琳委員從20%改為凍結5%剩餘凍結部分提出書面報告之後始動之農業部有意見嗎沒有農業部知道13項貴謝謝154案不好意思那個報告院長因為我後面還有一個附加條件並且每會期要提供相關的執行進度請本會議提供相關程度我們會提書面報告以後並在每個會期提他的進度知道154案農業部請表達意見"},{"start":12900.18,"end":12929.144,"text":"五十四案的部分是民眾黨委員會民眾黨團提出來的那主要的是針對我們的冷鏈的計畫的部分那我要跟委員說明的部分就是我們在這一次的台美關稅本身的一個座談會裡面那大部分的農民或農民團體最需要的就是冷鏈的相關的設備那這個冷鏈的設備基本上是在因應這些產品沒辦法及時出口的時候能夠做一個凍存的部分那"},{"start":12930.41,"end":12953.899,"text":"張委員這邊有提到的就是說因為我們年度也有編所謂的冷鏈的計畫那這邊要跟委員說明的就是我們年度的這些冷鏈計畫最主要做基礎建設那這個基礎建設包括區域冷鏈物流中心都是跟地方政府合作的他所受的是一般的作務但是在這個特別預算裡面的對象是不一樣的一定是受到衝擊的這些品項"},{"start":12954.719,"end":12969.878,"text":"那這些品項本身是需要做一些冷鏈的部分的處理所以希望委員能夠接受我們提書面報告後再動之以上提書面報告那提案的台灣民眾黨團請表達一下請掌握時間 謝謝"},{"start":12974.867,"end":12999.372,"text":"行政院從民國110年開始推動到目前已經有三座旗艦的物流中心了還有10處的區域物流中心他從110年到113年我們去查建過農產品冷鏈物流及品質確保市販體系4年這個中長期就已經花了126億喔另外呢"},{"start":13001.516,"end":13023.121,"text":"114年開始又執行一個建構農產品冷鏈物流及品質確保示範體系第二期又編了71億就從民國110年到現在為止已經花了將近200億了而且這個冷鏈中心不是隨便設的它在每個地點都需要很明確的分工跟盤點"},{"start":13024.505,"end":13041.702,"text":"所以我們這次又發現竟然這次冷鏈用特別預算一下又灌了50億進來之前已經用了200億左右的現在又出現了50億而且跟年度預算大部分都是連同的資源根本就是重疊的啊"},{"start":13042.728,"end":13058.431,"text":"而且我們看這個預算書特別預算裡面的他前期整個規劃還是不足的特別是在到底要選址選在哪個地方都沒有清楚的所以農業部的意見你不接受所以我們明確的要求減內25億另外凍結5億凍結這5億凍結這5億等在三個月內提到經濟委員會報告同意之後使得凍失這5億另外先前先砍25億"},{"start":13071.243,"end":13088.242,"text":"那個農業部這邊張提案的黨團在繼續堅持簡歷二十五一凍結五億請您表達意見我再次說明就是我們這一次特別預算的不是去給地方政府不是去選址我們的基礎工程是跟地方政府合作就要選適當的位置"},{"start":13089.964,"end":13118.505,"text":"但是這個是受到衝擊的產業的業者本身我舉個例子像鬼頭刀我們針對鬼頭刀他的船上的這些冷凍冷藏的設備還有他下船以後的養殖漁業的無鍋魚的這些農民團體或是農民本身比較大的農民之間去協助他做冷凍冷藏設備他不是說跟我們的基礎建設那個是基礎建設是另外一件事情這是我想請委員能夠支持"},{"start":13120.058,"end":13132.091,"text":"好 鍾委員請發言謝謝 我想剛剛張旗開委員是有很清楚的掌握到我們農業冷鏈過去的執行情況那我再說明一下三座旗艦物流中心是放在機場"},{"start":13133.95,"end":13154.104,"text":"這10處的區域中心是放在我們農業區的一個樞紐區那現在剛剛我們農業部的說明是怎樣我們冷鏈大概在兩個部分一個是生產端一個是加工端一個是出口端我們在出口端跟加工端就是上次之前年度預算所執行的現在我們在生產端什麼叫生產端呢我芋頭採收了"},{"start":13155.405,"end":13162.915,"text":"如果我沒有有冷鏈把它降溫把它冷藏我可能五天就壞掉了所以農民需要有一個冷鏈那個冷鏈可能沒有很大一個貨櫃那麼大我這個芋頭可以放到三個月的時候我就不用花錢來給我抬價啦"},{"start":13170.746,"end":13196.642,"text":"但是如果我沒有這個能念我生產端的農民我放五天就會壞最後一天換他來跟我說多少出價我就要賣他但是過去農業部所支持的是在哪裡機場要出口的或是加工廠大型加工廠 裁切廠那實處是便於食品加工用的現在我們要布點的是在生產端漁民 漁船上來我就給他動然後上了岸再送去加工加工完再出口"},{"start":13197.622,"end":13223.06,"text":"這個整個過程它是逐層式鋪建的所以我們現在在第一線我們很需要這樣的預算來幫助農民在生產端不管是漁民的漁船上還是我的農作物我的蘭花我的鳳梨我在我的生產端那邊就可以先有一個冷鏈讓它保存起來才不會在物流的過程產銷的過程當中被中間商所破我要強調一次前面的是什麼出口"},{"start":13224.369,"end":13246.709,"text":"三個地方包括機場十個地方是屬於大型加工廠他需要冷鏈現在我們不見到農民的生產端在產地在漁船上這個部分拜託張其開委員我們可以來理解後來給予支持好不好我們拜託農民拜託現在農業部的意思是說還是希望不要跟凍結提案的黨團委員請再度表達意見我要裁決 請"},{"start":13248.533,"end":13269.204,"text":"嘉賓講的就是跟我們剛提的案子不是一樣嘛你本來在年度預算裡面應該做的事情那你現在又這是一個高關稅你又弄了一個跟年度預算都是重疊的沒有嘛 聽我講嘛 聽我講嘛一個是重疊性然後第二個更嚴重的你從預算書你也看不出來你的前期規劃整個那個都是不清楚的 都粗糙嘛所以你才提說第一個你量已經過了"},{"start":13270.345,"end":13284.659,"text":"你從111年你已經投了200億進去每一分錢都是民脂民膏我們看不到你計畫嘛所以我們先看這個我們給了你一半喔50億是給了一半喔另外凍結了一部分請你把計畫提出來弄清楚說你的細部規劃所需的經費跟你要達成什麼目標如果同意的話這筆錢再給"},{"start":13289.706,"end":13316.813,"text":"兩個性質不一樣的現在這個樣子提案的黨團很堅持您可不可以做最後的我可以再跟委員報告第一個部分就是對象不一樣我們這次受到衝擊的這些產業不會擴及到非衝擊的產業以外的部分然後之前的這些冷鏈的建設是全國建構全國的冷鏈物流包括區域冷鏈中心是針對跟縣市政府合作然後這些產品是做到加工的"},{"start":13317.153,"end":13344.502,"text":"那現在是很多因為外銷受阻的時候我就必須要有一些冷藏冷凍的部分讓他暫緩出口的時候的一個作為所以這個部分是針對但是我們的對象現在有受到衝擊的時候他們需要的時候就會提出來所以我們對產業升級的部分那還是拜託委員能夠支持我們可以用書面的資料然後甚至於每一個會期都提供我們的相關的進度跟成果報告給您好 謝謝陳委員請發言"},{"start":13346.909,"end":13372.674,"text":"好 謝謝院長給我發言的機會那我們是不是可以討論一下也請民共黨團這邊是不是可以考慮一下關於檢列的部分跟凍檢你們都各自有提出一些數字那如果張其凱委員你可以接受剛剛包含中嘉賓委員剛剛的說法確實他們保證不會溢出受關稅衝擊的產業他們會focus在不管是之前他們有去辦鬼頭刀的說明會等等那我們是不是可以請求"},{"start":13373.794,"end":13394.319,"text":"凍結的部分我們也許就尊重民眾黨團但是在檢列的部分是不是可以給農業部一個空間跟討論的機會陳培偉的意思是說凍結還是凍結檢列部分就把它取消掉他是這個意思修正張啟凱委員你做最後表達我要做裁決了我剛剛就講過了這個本來它的用途跟年度預算就已經重疊了"},{"start":13395.439,"end":13412.276,"text":"當然是要刪啊你不同意就對了現在我們保153案保留性質是一樣的啦好了 不要再翻頁不要再回頭 我已經下達我已經做出保留處置了好不好保留決定了好不好現在議務五案主決議 請農業部表達意見"},{"start":13413.57,"end":13432.326,"text":"遵照辦理好謝謝156案遵照辦理謝謝157案遵照辦理謝謝158案遵照辦理好謝謝159案遵照辦理好謝謝那關於160的主決議國民黨團謝一鳳所提出來的委員所提出來的160遵照辦理160主決議遵照辦理好謝謝"},{"start":13439.085,"end":13460.197,"text":"謝謝農業部陳部長 謝謝各位農業部官謝謝謝謝天氣已經晚了 謝謝大家接下來衛福部我們謝謝衛福部我們第161案一族全民健康保險國民黨團提出凍結1億元新台幣請衛福部表達意見"},{"start":13461.641,"end":13484.793,"text":"主席跟各位委員報告這個健保一項我們都在國際上的評比不錯那去年呢那麼在立法院裡面也有過關於這個健保的永續特別是點子的保障等等問題你接受不接受我們也努力了所以是希望說這不是刪減喔這是凍結喔對能不能接受"},{"start":13485.353,"end":13503.44,"text":"是不是說這個從這個第幾行 1 2 3 4 5第五行後面民進黨政府執政迄今十年不思提出改革良策只知不斷用基金破產來恐嚇人民用撥補來煽動問題這些文字是不是可以刪除"},{"start":13503.9,"end":13521.769,"text":"因為事實上我們做了很多的努力那麼包含把一些原本在健保裡面那麼屬於比較政策性的我們用公務預算移出那麼讓這個財務上能夠更好那另外也提出了很多的細則的修進甚至在研究這個"},{"start":13523.931,"end":13536.244,"text":"廢機的擴大等等所以是不是可以把這些文字刪除那我們改成主決議會提案按照這個提案向這個立法院財政及相關委員會提出檢討書面報告"},{"start":13539.512,"end":13559.638,"text":"謝謝石部長 怪不得其實應該他是說將來他這只是凍結而已他現在請各位黨團幹部特別是天安國民黨團請看一下他就是所謂第五行民進黨政府執政迄今十年不思提出改革這個開始他這一段他希望能夠刪除其他金額凍結議員您沒意見"},{"start":13562.48,"end":13572.028,"text":"對文字有意見如果可以變成是這個主決議就是不凍結那我們來提出報告連凍結都有意見 希望改為主決議好 請國民黨團 天安黨團 請表達意見基本上 民進黨政府執政起今十年不失提出改革良策一直用基金破產恐嚇人民用波普來閃走問題粉飾太平 事實問題啊為什麼不能寫"},{"start":13589.714,"end":13610.688,"text":"凍結一役就凍結一役啊那如果照你這樣說法那這個案子也很好處理就保留直接送院會啊好 司部長您能接受嗎提案國民黨團他堅持因為我們一直在努力讓這個健保的財務永續啦並不是說完全沒有在做改革好 謝謝 謝謝司部長再次的回答我們161案保留送院會進入162案 請"},{"start":13615.357,"end":13631.004,"text":"衛福部請表達意見 凍結0.01 國民黨團所提議是 那個委員已經同意 改成主決議好 謝謝 我們162改為主決議修正通過163國民黨團羅明財委員所提出 遵照辦理好 謝謝 164"},{"start":13633.705,"end":13645.431,"text":"順照辦理謝謝165順照辦理謝謝166166委員有同意修正文字修正文字在各位手上謝一芬委員同意修正文字"},{"start":13647.072,"end":13666.592,"text":"請問各位黨團幹部有沒有寶貴意見沒有意見沒有意見我們就照修正通過167167這個遵照辦理好168遵照辦理非常非常感謝我們現在進入169簡列2000的台灣民眾黨團所提請衛福部表達意見"},{"start":13668.059,"end":13684.031,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個在這一次的特別預算裡面有特別對獨老就是獨居老人的關懷服務包含這個訪視關懷送餐還有這個緊急救援等等但是因為這些獨老獨老者"},{"start":13684.451,"end":13699.436,"text":"不容易接觸所以我們有編列這個沒宣費那麼希望能夠來讓這些老人知道有這些服務能夠得到這些幫忙所以希望不要這個刪減因為我們總共才編3253萬那減列了2600萬的話我們就很難執行了"},{"start":13707.916,"end":13722.653,"text":"好 謝謝那現在衛福部所提的請提案的台灣民眾黨團請表達意見好 請陳昭之委員請表達市部長你115年購屋預算你就編了沒宣費 編多少你記得嗎"},{"start":13723.547,"end":13729.669,"text":"115年的公務預算做個比例是1700萬但你這一次的沒宣費你編了快要兩倍耶這是兩年"},{"start":13740.954,"end":13763.503,"text":"然後就你在本來有的預算這次第一個就是說這樣子的合理性我們來討論看看第二個 第二個就是說一下將近兩倍 兩倍的一個費用就是說正常的預算是這樣然後你在特別預算的時候變成有兩倍的沒去費用然後你說要照顧弱勢或是老人等等這個是專做獨居老人"},{"start":13767.085,"end":13785.706,"text":"你這個煤圈它要怎麼用它數位落差它也不用手機也不用電腦也不用你要怎麼對老人做這些而且高關稅老實說也不會加速跟老化的這個問題這個都不太相關所以你變這個預算又比正常的預算又多兩倍然後對象又是他們"},{"start":13786.874,"end":13804.9,"text":"老實說你是我可能你也是跟我現在難過關喔不容易approach啦所以我們是希望說不要剪裂那凍結讓我們來報告沒有問題但是不要剪裂讓我們可以去執行這樣那個現在台灣民眾黨團是不是提出修正"},{"start":13806.269,"end":13833.07,"text":"修正的就是檢列1627000然後並聯席會三檢數請問一下台灣民眾黨團有沒有提這個案其他不要再說就只講有還是沒有我們就是 沒有啦我們就是堅持原案我們檢列2000你提了比年度預算更多我們是要求檢列2600 2600萬然後另外凍結維持原案就對了啦就是邵志剛講的我們維持原案張委員這邊有你們的簽字"},{"start":13834.474,"end":13838.025,"text":"黃國昌總召他建議"},{"start":13840.151,"end":13862.485,"text":"好 他建議這個 OK好 那換句話說張旗開委員他就現在堅持原來的所提減列2600萬要加一個字叫餘剩下的餘額凍結30%因為少了這個餘 好不好 加進去請問一下衛福部有沒有意見這樣是沒有辦法執行好 那我們本案保留我們進入170案凍結20%國民黨團所提案請衛福部表達意見"},{"start":13867.068,"end":13876.094,"text":"這個委員已經同意有修正 改動節10%好 我們170案改動 提案的委員改為10%剩下書面報告之後時的動資 好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝衛福部 各位部長 主席長 謝謝"},{"start":13892.113,"end":13910.057,"text":"那我現在做一個宣告現在我們第一題特別預算已經協商完成共保留八案二保留的提案部分不會人可以繼續跟黨團保持溝通三現在有一個協商草案我們請工作人員發放來宣讀一下看大家的意見如何"},{"start":13931.926,"end":13949.408,"text":"好 這個協商結論各黨團幹部麻煩看一下我來宣讀一下協商主題延長中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟及社會及民生國安任性特別預算案相關事宜協商結論一協商通過內容及保留部分如後赴"},{"start":13950.169,"end":13971.357,"text":"於照聯席會議審查結果通過由財政委會整理送各黨團確認之後於10月14號星期四下午5點前送議事處2本案於院會進行處理時非保留部分宣讀後均予以通過保留部分均"},{"start":13973.767,"end":13994.266,"text":"暫保留保留部分進行處理之前由台灣民眾黨團推派一位民進黨團推派一位國民黨團推派一位以上開黨團順序發言每人發言時間為三分鐘發言完畢之後各保留提案均不再發言即開始進行保留部分之表決"},{"start":13995.387,"end":14021.69,"text":"本案經二讀之內容請主席總處與財政委員會核對刪減項目及金額共願會進行三讀三 本案完成三讀之後由各黨團各推派一位進行三讀後發言本次協商各項提議均予以刊登公報記錄請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見沒有意見 請羅委員請發言"},{"start":14023.554,"end":14048.864,"text":"報告院長 因為我們今天還有2345的那個開會室友那我想說是不是有可能明天因為有些 校園裡面有些時效性的問題才化法的部分所以如果明天2345尤其第四個OK好 謝謝院長那我們現在先請問一下這個協商結論這個部分有沒有問題沒有問題請簽字好嗎好 總系長請發言"},{"start":14055.685,"end":14069.059,"text":"主席長不發言則一發言就是重點我們日習都寫錯了你看主席長 難逃主席長發言的趕快改好 謝謝主席長好 其他沒寶貴意見沒有 請簽字我們先一個人按一個人按來"},{"start":14121.089,"end":14122.574,"text":"好 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致送最高建議和感謝"},{"start":1824.975,"end":1848.892,"text":"本市委員會落實內請代總統國家希望工廠《經濟合格基本法》《國家二元發展法》精神以及促進主流發言者以複製行業、創新文化與技術、發展合作、強化強硬參與以導演策略推動合格行業主流"},{"start":1850.253,"end":1877.484,"text":"在此就重點實證的成果與展望建議報告向國會委員會指教在實證成果方面首先 本市在今年5月成立的合唱會社會提倡的委員會稍後會派出全國分析措談用強硬的角度來協助本市推動政策"},{"start":1878.885,"end":1893.843,"text":"一切出現強硬參與共窮事務經營輸充的發行前沿核加幣結合外共核重點 鼓勵民眾多核種共核發力社會"},{"start":1895.639,"end":1911.626,"text":"總共發行的獎券28萬5千分希望共同打造出我的工學受費性發揮能夠推出送販學種遺跡企劃總共獻出的47個遺跡者每人付出100萬元分"},{"start":1918.169,"end":1943.645,"text":"留在合作的前沿,采取生育发展和文化创新的努力,也持续跟地方和民间共同努力,布出相关批立计划,推动合作生育创新。让我们和民间共同来推动政治思路,恢复原则,"},{"start":1944.825,"end":1962.002,"text":"運用自費觀光工具 規劃本中生理行 也積極參與國際理財及國際運動實施提升合作觀光能源圖 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凡事宜宜聖母太閣安之世 羅勒感謝謝謝我們各位委員 骨子委接下來我們請各家公共傳播基金會的陳邦臻董事長"},{"start":2492.797,"end":2510.86,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好今天非常榮幸 立法會副主委來共同列席本區委員會報告昨天發言核加共同傳播基因會17年內有報告希望主席及各位委員會支持本核傳會做得順利讓人立法會來共同推廣"},{"start":2522.734,"end":2526.815,"text":"加速發展核架文化的傳播,不要太多諸國的堅持,老是蒙著日。提醒,以此行的理念來衝著我的方針,核傳媒會到六七,憲法部長,導演文化展現,創新核架演員文化,日白日日新人,照過去的情況來培育核擬傳播人才及核工核工部天台,"},{"start":2549.936,"end":2558.823,"text":"《天壤壤溪Podcast》 名錄媒體 串流讓人平台 平台等等我們都都能發給社會媒體平台 只作出由這兩個文化內容 讓台灣社會展現合格的價值其他社會肥料平台"},{"start":2568.05,"end":2576.377,"text":"兩中共學公佈天台 日白14年 半信80日集 即將做出17個節目並委託 集團發言 報導 學家公佈天台 等等單位 製作44集節目節目次數已達到64.8% 播出近20日集 總社會公路公佈"},{"start":2594.69,"end":2599.571,"text":"天台支部的行為節目七十二集大創老快創的節目這八十四年在六十屆的公佈節目中 共學公佈天台任獲特朗德帝都企劃變川將韓國女性任獲出行人將女性任獲節目將韓國阿姫米亞共鄉局帝都流行任獲出行人將今年的節目中 共學"},{"start":2623.715,"end":2628.538,"text":"這個講學天台得到全國最大的獎項四項四項下來等於那個老講學的一件事情本台感恩賜向你那個新聞國會委員還有你政府委員會的支持我們本身六十九十拍攝節目雙家都講學共和天台老家的官方名稱Apple Podcast 香港SpotifyKickbox 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三十二十兩站市場展"},{"start":2863.882,"end":2872.143,"text":"由於提供講學、講博天台到都市度、都市地區之類的項目,並完成10層次的6人席行政計劃,講學Live Studio 發通,增加都市學家人及學生人的收藏率。同時,在學家文化發展中心聯合參加2005年,"},{"start":2888.342,"end":2894.226,"text":"台北国际署站展出多种不同的出版品和刊物,并制作AI Pocket 节目和AI 客户态势与民众互通。普洱客户日同日莫人才,其中正然的舞台。过去,客户日同合同团在80年日返时,三重市卖票的日莫费,在80年3月29日,"},{"start":2914.977,"end":2923.305,"text":"協助前西東日本東京的東京學家從今共會、勤勤待會,並提起中華中學校合作團進行交流戰術。這是分享學長時事,提醒學家學生念初初。學新聞多九年代,看見日文九千七百五十六篇新聞,"},{"start":2942.028,"end":2952.49,"text":"累積有500公尺分以內的瀏覽,700公尺分以內是點燃的。其中,持續提供兩章新聞內容,即是新的導演性,並請發學傳輔與學長之連結。請問一下,2017年持續僅僅讓人講學公佈天台,運用創新技術和新媒體,若是攀起全國學家共同傳播,讓人施展傳播思想,"},{"start":2971.365,"end":2971.445,"text":"謝謝陳董事長"},{"start":2993.663,"end":3015.618,"text":"現在進行詢答那委員質詢前按例做幾點宣告每位委員發言時間本委員會5分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本委員會5分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記那本次的會議就不處理臨時的提案請問各位有沒有意見"},{"start":3020.069,"end":3025.733,"text":"那我們現在進行詢問 請登記第一位的王美惠召遊來發言主席 主委請鼓主委王委員主委"},{"start":3047.171,"end":3064.27,"text":"主委在這裡面可能我講的議員跟你合不三天但是我們互相尊重如果聽不到的時候你再問一次沒關係因為我們是要解決問題不是要先做問題出來我們也希望我們靠的未來可以更好"},{"start":3069.938,"end":3076.122,"text":"在這裡剛才我聽到你的工作報告、業務報告裡面說到我們的議員的問題在本學所了解的看法這幾天雖然你是來當我"},{"start":3087.842,"end":3094.945,"text":"新的政府集結在哪裡 到現在因為我也覺得你很認真 但是認真的當中有需要進步的地方因為議員在學習的時候 主委你看我們的議員在這幾天來 你會覺得說我們沒有那麼進步 又那麼退步"},{"start":3115.953,"end":3119.457,"text":"像在這裏面你看7月到12月22月以下在這幾天的裏面你看我們沒什麼行動所以在你未來剛才你的報告裏面你也要問問我們的機關"},{"start":3136.715,"end":3141.178,"text":"可以更加進步更好因為本身所了解我們本身如果像我跟外國台灣人跟外國講台語跟英文課為平常時在家的跟阿公阿嬤講我們的本意言是覺得很正常的但是在他不是"},{"start":3162.421,"end":3167.404,"text":"科技委員的主題的時候想要讓我們的科技來賓要如何可以讓他們來賀我們本身我們自己的意願要如何保存這是最重要的因為主委我今天會跟你說這個心情就是請請我現在要講台語要如何"},{"start":3192.15,"end":3202.477,"text":"不准這個重要性一直沒人說這個危機我們真的要去注重"},{"start":3203.272,"end":3206.415,"text":"主委請你回答一下感謝王議員 合法和合法都強調面對流失的問題王議員有提到 休省的生育學習比例講下來它的部分課程 可能要再進一步用該套方法"},{"start":3227.415,"end":3229.296,"text":"主委 在這要探討的時候 我覺得探討過程很長"},{"start":3257.762,"end":3274.054,"text":"在我自己來講,因為自己長大,家大戶小,他有一個故事,他的妻子在那裡學生在那裡學,但是再來,故事跟故事,又沒有"},{"start":3275.288,"end":3287.572,"text":"他覺得再來就沒有吃的地方小朋友你會覺得他會說的很快、很好吃但是在各地各地又重複又沒有像這個人也很要緊的這個規定"},{"start":3297.659,"end":3318.448,"text":"那些學校有延伸 目前各種國中有鼓勵學校目前有的 所以國度行政室本來教小學的一直在各種國中教的目前有面對到這樣的困難就是行政室分批的提防沒多嚴肅 失職 缺乏那些問題"},{"start":3326.331,"end":3331.173,"text":"對 主委你說的就是私資的問題嘛所以我就是說 如果你的問題拿出來說就是覺得說我們的價值錢 你如果想到價值錢而已就這樣啊 更何況百度錢所以說在這個過程當中 主委你要去邀請一下因為我覺得對老總統來說 他對"},{"start":3354.178,"end":3357.94,"text":"教授會做過他也非常關心你看你剛才報告的時候你看你提到說我們老總統希望我們的工廠裡面藝人會發展會發展是國家的所以這說實在的主委你要趕快去"},{"start":3380.768,"end":3393.539,"text":"做去改善 看要怎麼做但是你未來有要怎麼做 讓它不要一直降價是不是你這個價位可以給本縣在一星期來給本縣看你未來要怎麼做好不好好 來 主委你今天說"},{"start":3406.087,"end":3409.148,"text":"我也感謝主委在這麼忙碌的時間去到嘉義市看到我們客位做羽馬在當中 主委在嘉義市看到做羽馬的時候 主委你有感動嗎很感動 更感動更感動 因為嘉義市我們貴社會選英國體育派"},{"start":3432.847,"end":3447.596,"text":"因為我認為在嘉義市的地方雖然我們秀的作品不代表你不去關心它我也知道主委很關心嘉義市的客戶所有的客戶"},{"start":3452.499,"end":3460.323,"text":"所以在這個過程當中我也聽到你在這裡說你的未來要做的等待的項目裡面有固定在固定,我這本簿子從頭看到後面今天坐在這裡看你在那裡報告的時候完全都沒有說錯"},{"start":3480.373,"end":3491.259,"text":"嘉義市 主委嘉義市是一個幸福的地方也希望主委可以讓這個市區帶動嘉義市的發展因為"},{"start":3496.562,"end":3503.549,"text":"課宜的問題 一定要有互動像這個親子聚 就是互動你會去認識你自己的家人的時候看孩子跟姨媽 跟親戚在那裡玩的時候說實在 我不是開心而已"},{"start":3517.282,"end":3518.264,"text":"我非常感動,可以在嘉義市有這麼大的市區來嘉義市尤其是中央的活動所以主委,我們在這裡也要拜託喔,可以"},{"start":3534.861,"end":3538.924,"text":"那嘉義市這個要做的地方把它納入嘉義市也研議一下因為我認為這對嘉義市來說非常重要因為嘉義市的發展也需要各方面的投資因為我們"},{"start":3556.978,"end":3560.661,"text":"中醫廟發展的時候 我也感謝我們副主委那天有去有去的當中 我覺得我們的不足就是說這麼多人出來的活動聽他們的說 你們只有補助一點"},{"start":3575.708,"end":3577.389,"text":"我們的神主也已經蓋了 是要讓人這樣供養再來嚴格在這個過程當中 我覺得起的神看到他們的活動 歡歡喜喜所以主耶"},{"start":3592.08,"end":3598.124,"text":"在這裡的問題裡面多給他們協助尤其是中醫廟跟在沒有人靠的活動中心但是中醫廟是因為大家都會去那裡開工在那些活動的地方我希望主委對這個活動對這個地方要多給他關心一下主委好 沒問題我會照顧到好 剛才剛才我說的"},{"start":3622.16,"end":3626.062,"text":"謝謝我們會召委接下來我們請接下來我們請張志文委員好謝謝主席各位官員各位委員大家早有請谷主委請谷主委"},{"start":3651.537,"end":3667.237,"text":"總委員好股主委早首先先非常感謝這個客家委員會股主委對地方文化活動的支持這個客家委員會原本在今年114年的新北市客家藝名祭文化節的經費"},{"start":3668.188,"end":3687.926,"text":"原本核定的是100萬那因為當時地方新北市政府有提出他的參與的內容有很多包含青年參與的部分那我非常感謝谷主委這邊因為有看到青年然後整個活動非常的這個充實所以同意加碼100萬總補助金費到200萬元那我相信這份補助"},{"start":3688.366,"end":3708.226,"text":"就代表中央跟地方大家一起核心協力對我們所有客家的傳統信仰跟青年世代共榮的重視也讓地方政府在推動這個客家文化傳承上有更大的實力空間所以再次跟股主委跟客委會表達感謝也感謝副主委親自出席那第二個"},{"start":3710.013,"end":3736.621,"text":"還是要稍微再請問要繼續監督我們的客委會那第二個還是要請教今天谷主委特別在我們的章案報告裡面有提到就是有關於博工造戶戰的部分那博工造戶戰我相信是一個非常重要的一個政策因為博工造戶戰有非常多的好處像親子共融互動對文化語言的傳承等等的這些幫助那我相信之前一直有跟谷主委拜託這個雖然說博工造戶戰"},{"start":3737.461,"end":3753.351,"text":"我們希望是在我們客家的重點發展區可是因為現在當然我們知道很多客家的鄉親他有一些都市化的都市化聚集的一些情況那造成有一些的分散造成現在如果要符合重點發展區"},{"start":3754.993,"end":3770.255,"text":"這個就是客家人需要在這個區要三分之一以上是有相對應的困難度那之前我在數次的質詢也有請教谷主委說這個比例是否可以下降尤其新北市跟台北市現在都還沒有博工照護站"},{"start":3770.655,"end":3781.224,"text":"那上次口頭諮詢你們也有回覆喔可是回覆的內容喔本席還是想請這個谷主委稍微聊一下說你們現在對於這個雙北的博工造戶站你們的預期的計畫是如何謝謝首先感謝總委員對於哈卡委員會的傾聽十分感謝白宮政府在考試總委員質詢過後"},{"start":3793.774,"end":3801.38,"text":"我們內部有幾十倍的討論所以針對沖電發展機以外的在土司方的新北、台中、高雄等土匪在蓋道行營應用的處理我們目前儲備有針對非核架沖電發展機"},{"start":3814.746,"end":3828.572,"text":"天然的一個百分之三十以上做的食用核發的比例就做到了五億來目前 目前新北有符合要生產的資格在三峽區的用料理所以 那個價值 這樣推動的做法我們會針對都市"},{"start":3840.076,"end":3845.1,"text":"無窮的地方 做我們的實踐一天 現在因為白宮政府站是一個企業一個高天的地區 但是因為一國分散 價值沒有差不多30%我們有可能用沙灘的方式來跟白宮政府站合作"},{"start":3861.089,"end":3869.98,"text":"核架沙灘以核架式做的來從事核白宮政府負責的事情我們認為要替杜氏核架的推動來講那一個進步的 那一個跨出進一步的 有兩種方法"},{"start":3879.351,"end":3904.899,"text":"好非常感謝主委剛剛的回覆所以剛剛主委回覆我覺得非常重要所以博工照護站正式進駐新北就像你講的他現在已經進駐到新北市三峽的一個里的一個部分那我相信當然人數的部分可能人數在新北整體對整體我們所有客家人數來講還是不多那剛剛主委也有一些新的一些方式像是你剛剛講的如果可以用申請制或者是說他可以集結到"},{"start":3905.359,"end":3914.888,"text":"一定的人數一定的社團的時候我認為博工招呼站如果可以進駐到新北讓更多新北的人來感受到這個親子或者是我們所有"},{"start":3917.719,"end":3939.585,"text":"這個長輩這個跟我們所有下一代的小朋友這樣子的一個方式我覺得是非常的好那就拜託主委繼續我們繼續加強因為其實每年的這個博工招呼站的清費都是有在提升的跟112年比較起來其實有增加到兩倍以上所以我覺得這個可以繼續再努力那第三個我就要請教就是有關於客家幣的一個部分"},{"start":3940.245,"end":3961.873,"text":"那當時我覺得有一個很有趣的事情要請教谷主委當時您跟我講客家幣的使用人數你還記得是多少人嗎你當時跟我講的是40萬人一開始跟我講的是40萬人可是最後我們看到這個客家幣的發放大概是20出頭萬人那我想請教一下中間的落差"},{"start":3962.575,"end":3977.051,"text":"是什麼因為很多民眾覺得說當時這個客家幣是要推動我們所有這個客家莊的一個經濟發展跟我們很多的一些店家的一些互動那怎麼人數從40萬人降少降低到20幾萬人"},{"start":3979.85,"end":3994.007,"text":"所以當時是覺得說可以比較數量可以多一點後來因為預算的問題所以往下降了那還有我就是反映一些民意那當然客家幣的"},{"start":3994.795,"end":4008.208,"text":"政策我覺得是一個很好的政策不過我認為很多民眾在跟我們反映的時候也有特別強調說這個為什麼當時在發放的時候有一個年紀的限制好像是18歲到45歲是不是因為年紀的問題導致我後來發行的數量變49歲"},{"start":4012.372,"end":4037.914,"text":"是不是因為年紀的問題而導致後來能拿到的人數量變少呢還有我還要繼續請教還有用途的部分那當然我們需要是推行就是地方美食文化跟傳統藝術等等一些方式那我們也看到當然網路上也有很多人在提說有一些當然店家很聰明他會利用這個客家幣的部分來做些促銷所以我們就看到很多店家去買金飾"},{"start":4039.293,"end":4058.191,"text":"等等的或者是去買一些文具等等不是說不行可是我們很怕客家幣當時原有的大家的這種要讓客家文化發展更好的這個想法變成客家幣就等於消費幣消費券的那樣的概念那主委你在聽到這些的問題而且現在的使用率大概是20%幾還沒有超過30%"},{"start":4061.054,"end":4063.636,"text":"針對很多民眾提出來的這些問題 妳可不可以一次回覆一下好 感謝總委員在我們想要設備建設的學校 當時用的最重要的政策之一就是學校委員會19年來有推動一個叫做外公學 點外公學的商店"},{"start":4081.963,"end":4086.467,"text":"在學校創業期間 必須要點價去使用學法當然學校的學法 學生的學校的學法 他們沒有辦法使用所以要兩篇特立的 要兩篇作為連接方案所以就要學校必須想法出來"},{"start":4100.373,"end":4103.575,"text":"任何的合法 任何的黑咖啡都會供合法的商店來使用來收費因為只有私人的 也要服從私人的收費的意願也要追尋 也要政策推出的目標今天週末的18到49歲黑咖啡發行的對象有三宗已經在通過行業認證"},{"start":4128.769,"end":4135.617,"text":"她的行為家庭在前十百多、四十九歲當時的十百多、四十九歲不是因為我的思量、感受,所以我懇請她的年齡不是,是因為四十九歲以下的外國學生的年齡比你大"},{"start":4150.049,"end":4158.753,"text":"二十歲以下的差不多百分之十幾十幾在內四十多四十九百分之四十一都沒有超過一半五十歲以上的外國合法比例的百分之五十以上所以我們會想在價值安排的方向向商人跟生意運用的行業也要私從地域用合法來使用所以我們要有這樣的想法出來"},{"start":4177.18,"end":4205.113,"text":"十八到四十九當然 國土民眾都有提到要靠開放也要買那個我們的社會集團 要思考的感謝總委員提出這個問題 本來順利好 抱歉主席 最後一個問題就是其實我們還是常常請教主委這個問題就是根據國家語言整體的發展方案就是客語現在變成大家知道就是像剛剛主委有講的年輕人尤其49歲以下講客語的人非常的少"},{"start":4206.734,"end":4233.208,"text":"這個三代間使用客語的使用率也流失超過七成所以我們一直立法院主要的目的就是要協助行政單位立法我們有一個叫做客家語言發展法的部分上次有請教您說已經送到行政院來做核准的一個步驟了可是最近我們有看到新聞是不是說請你回應說現在的目前的進度在哪裡我們也看到新聞裡面有寫說"},{"start":4234.5,"end":4251.364,"text":"文化部好像有相對有一些的意見那是不是可以這邊請你回應一下說那這樣子遇到已經等了那麼久遇到卡關的這樣的狀況可不可以稍微請你解釋一下文化部那邊提出來的意義是什麼你們有收到相關的意見你們的回覆是什麼主要是這樣文化學家基本法底盤有一個設立國家研究研究中心學家研究中心"},{"start":4262.759,"end":4267.461,"text":"但是文化部那篇文章 提出的一個案例叫做國家研研研究中心核發的選項在哪裏呢那兩篇就會有重複的問題所以我們也要先點下來 沒想另外一個法律 核感研研發展法也要國普費有協商的 已經協商好的"},{"start":4284.468,"end":4285.429,"text":"謝謝主委 這邊特別重述一下"},{"start":4306.357,"end":4320.617,"text":"主委的意思是說現在跟文化部的溝通是有辦法去解決這樣的問題那兩件事 不好意思 再說一下這是兩件事 兩件事像國家語言研究發展中心文化鋪鐵"},{"start":4322.302,"end":4345.537,"text":"語言發展研究中心跟客家語言發展法是兩件事但是因為要在語言研究中心跟客家語言研究中心要有可能有重複的問題要涉及客家基本法要修那要想客家語言發展法跟基本法要同時做一邊的思考要有一點點連帶的關係"},{"start":4349.209,"end":4369.559,"text":"好 所以 可是我剛剛我還是有聽到您說下個會期有機會希望下個會期把這個科家園發展法送到立法院還是送到行政院行政院當然要通過張有法律書下一個就是要變成在演一個會期送到行政院然後看有沒有機會送到立法院好 謝謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝好 謝謝張志倫委員接下來我們請蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":4388.171,"end":4390.233,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請谷主委主委好"},{"start":4396.96,"end":4423.892,"text":"所以我想這一段時間跟您就教的問題還是離不開我最關心的兩大主題第一個就是客家文化的傳承我是希望能夠直接到兒童 青少年這樣讓下一代真正能夠接起這個文化不管是在語言或者是生活習慣等等的這些部分這樣其實才是真正把文化保留下去所以我"},{"start":4424.412,"end":4442.182,"text":"特別關心的是兒少這方面的政策這是第一個第二個我特別關心的也是關於散居客家鄉親到底要在怎麼樣在這樣的生活狀態當中保有自己的文化散居客人客家人客家族群這個部分我特別關心"},{"start":4443.022,"end":4458.068,"text":"所以今天還是一樣就這兩個面向來跟您就教那第一個關於兒少的這個部分我想請主委看一下小朋友其實最容易學到客家話客家文化的除了家庭之外坦白講就是學校了啦"},{"start":4458.508,"end":4478.982,"text":"你在怎麼說我們補助社團 親子活動等等其實都不如學校來得多好 那主委您看一下這個是左邊這邊是教育部我們在上本土語言的時候客家的教材那右邊的是您客委會這邊主導編撰的教材你自己有沒有評價"},{"start":4480.387,"end":4497.237,"text":"好意思評價嗎你比較喜歡哪一邊看起來有土的看起來有意思看起來你們課委會的看起來比較活潑那你再看一下主題的話這個因為我沒有辦法像您這樣子念的那麼好比如說教育部的第一課這個不曉得要怎麼"},{"start":4499.258,"end":4504.78,"text":"主委這個要怎麼念我將來的職業嘛對不對好那一直到比如說好了第三第二課洗衣服的地方那藍衫的秘密就是你們那個傳統客家藍衫嘛好到這邊幾個甚至是第四課"},{"start":4520.945,"end":4544.618,"text":"不一樣的客家話其實都感覺比較硬一點相對來講 客委會的你看這邊是網路泡麵 藍山運動服一樣講藍山的時候他講運動服看起來真的是比較有趣好 那如果我們再看下一頁我們直接進到內容主委 這個是教育部的不曉得您會念嗎或者是稍微看一下的話 您覺得"},{"start":4546.326,"end":4551.192,"text":"學會了這些客家話對我日常客家對話的用處是比較艱難比較艱難一點對 它裡面其實蠻實用的它有教你說什麼是四線腔 海陸腔好 那如果我們來看您課委會的部分"},{"start":4563.659,"end":4565.902,"text":"這個部分台灣人喜歡喝茶然後這個是等一個環保杯啊等等的看起來就是日常對話這樣應該到這裡我目前為止是給客委會極高的評價啦好那接下來是質詢的部分了"},{"start":4581.839,"end":4591.49,"text":"質詢的部分是那請問一下課委會第一同樣是教材你們也花了心思去做第一你在對教育部教育部在編撰這些內文的時候課委會有表達意見嗎課委會表達的意見是什麼第二"},{"start":4596.476,"end":4612.465,"text":"客委會你們做了這麼好的東西原則上也是配合著剛剛我都是完全拿同樣喔都是國中七年級同一個學期然後說客委會編撰完以後也是說希望國中上課可以用請問你們有讓它被使用嗎"},{"start":4613.365,"end":4629.664,"text":"因為我們從現場教學的反應來講的話其實現場在教課語的本土語老師學校內的本土語老師其實就是有這樣的困擾啊因為我上課還是要上教育部的啊我不可能不上教育部來上課委會的啊"},{"start":4630.365,"end":4639.031,"text":"好 那如果我要用課委會的課委會是要用在什麼時候教呢我被檢驗的狀態是什麼呢所以 主委麻煩您對我的兩個問題做一個說明教育部在變業的高層的時間因為有VMV"},{"start":4647.136,"end":4649.899,"text":"對 你們有參與嗎沒有對啊 你們為什麼沒有參與因為感謝委員我們在內地的高層反映在內地有跟行業的部分請邀請我們講是 我認為當然啦 這是教育部主導的業務"},{"start":4662.912,"end":4672.098,"text":"那你們說我沒有受到教育部的邀請可是我認為啦其實大家部會是一體的政府就是政府人民對大家期待是這樣那我現在已經用質詢的時間正式的跟課委會提出這個要求我希望課委會可以主動也跟教育部說我們有意見我們希望能夠參與主委這樣做得到嗎主委可以嗎"},{"start":4685.346,"end":4689.872,"text":"所以這是第一個在教育部要有增修的時候甚至你們現在就應該跟他表達下一次我要進去嘛這是第一個那第二個 你的東西什麼時候用聽的 放在家裡 每天提一個問題我英文聽的也要提 也要我煮湯"},{"start":4701.545,"end":4704.286,"text":"所以主委我這邊從剛剛一開始的時候是跟您客委會編撰的教材表示高度的肯定好用好看大家喜歡但"},{"start":4719.474,"end":4725.319,"text":"到底要用在什麼時候 什麼時候用所以這是第一個我的問題很感謝主委都給了正面的答覆第二個我也跟你討論剛剛張委員有提到的文化幣的部分確實文化幣我們其實某程度的作用客家幣 對不起客家幣 我們要討論客家幣的部分客家幣的作用就是希望讓年輕一代有更多的機會來使用"},{"start":4744.154,"end":4765.615,"text":"客家語言因為透過一個消費行為所以來使用客語所以我也贊成你說要用外公好這樣子的客家店家客語店家來使用店家是這種那使用客家幣的族群是18到45這都OK那就回到我剛剛說的散居的部分了主委"},{"start":4766.946,"end":4777.013,"text":"我們現在外公行的這個政策這種店家只有在客庄可以有嗎那散居的地方可不可以也有這樣呢我就是 正因為我在不是客庄所以我講客語更彌足珍貴啊不是應該讓我被大大的標章外公行啊不是這樣嗎這樣 莫名其妙 由過度延遲新北台北高雄等等土匪都在翻譯說我們土司在外面沒有外公行的廉價"},{"start":4796.305,"end":4798.625,"text":"我們在結婚上要幫太監行業各種人在結婚當然委員所提的我們在結婚男女時刻要去都市坊我們有一個擔心擔心就是說那幾十都市的店都男女來我講那些店男女來可能超過一般的人會去都市坊因為很窮"},{"start":4822.91,"end":4838.323,"text":"沒關係那個標準要是怎麼拿捏您可以來拿捏可是我覺得因為從客庄與非客庄是按照人口聚集的程度你剛剛說30%嘛所以新北市整個新北市1032個里當中只有三峽一個里"},{"start":4842.026,"end":4855.39,"text":"變成是客庄所以所有客委會的相關資源變成新北市幾乎有很大一部分都沒有辦法使用我覺得這非常的可惜尤其是外國人在經過這幾年的這樣子的推廣其實我覺得有很多客家鄉親不管是從事生意往來的或者是其他領域的他穿那件T恤 貼那個貼紙他們其實是滿驕傲的"},{"start":4867.833,"end":4895.439,"text":"那你如何讓這個驕傲感可以擴散我認為這是一個已經開始可以思考的時刻了所以包括像客家幣怎麼讓這些人也覺得因為我平常有認真的做奶工號這個政策所以我也在這一波的刺激消費裡面某程度它就是雙向的狀況一方面是讓年輕人講客家話去買東西另外一方面是你推廣客語的店家我也讓你有生意做所以他們也得到獎勵"},{"start":4896.619,"end":4909.462,"text":"那我認為這個部分真的應該要考慮我們散居的地區啊所以主委你這個部分可不可以表達一下你的態度好 我們還有一個結論我們其實已經有跟我們的女僕在討論說要開放嗎啦 也要部分標準你可以定我覺得你可以有任何的考慮機制但我認為這個方向要做好不好 主委好 謝謝主委感謝蘇綺燕"},{"start":4926.013,"end":4927.655,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請谷主委請谷主委王美燕"},{"start":4950.615,"end":4977.939,"text":"好 谷主委好我今天也是想要跟您就教這個客家幣使用的範圍因為其實在上個會期我有提出一個建議而且是具體的提案就是希望說我們客家幣的使用範圍可以擴大因為其實誠如剛剛有幾位委員都有提到這個其實很多客家莊不一定是它裡面的人口的比例有真的到三分之一以上但是裡面其實還是客家的人口很多"},{"start":4978.519,"end":5001.933,"text":"我舉個例子在我們高雄像是三明區鳳山區左營區其實客家的人口大概都有兩成可是因為這三個行政區都是人口很多的地方所以雖然只有兩成可是人口可能是六七萬以上啊每個行政區都是六七萬以上喔那會變成說如果你們只用比例去看這個地方是不是客家文化發展區會變成說"},{"start":5004.254,"end":5026.711,"text":"用比例這樣子的界定實在是太狹隘而且太侷限了那導致說在都會區的客家人口明明就這麼多可是他卻沒有成為客家文化發展區也因而沒有辦法使用你們進一步的所有的客家政策包括客家幣的使用類似如此所以其實像這樣子"},{"start":5027.592,"end":5044.95,"text":"的政策我認為是可以檢討的包括說其實我們高雄三民區的李昆澤委員鳳山區的徐志傑委員也都提案了他們認為是不是乾脆直接修改客家基本法算了那我認為除了修法之外其實行政手段很多啊"},{"start":5045.59,"end":5069.237,"text":"你們可以直接去重新界定這些客家政策適用的範圍包括哪一些店家是可以跟你們配合使用客家幣的哪一些區域他們就是客家文化如果沒有辦法這麼明定成為客家文化發展區那有其他的方式來鼓勵這一些都會區的客家人口可以跟你們的政策相呼應嗎所以在這邊是不是先請教主委"},{"start":5070.342,"end":5079.145,"text":"不要用人口的比例 而是看人口數來界定你們客家文化發展政策的範圍呢感謝王議員 確實王議員所提的我們有提的思考可能不會對客家比喻的政策合一結團"},{"start":5091.306,"end":5111.656,"text":"來調整所以在其他思考的中間我們有跟國體法政府請國體法政府提出來不能所採取的有內到的核感研究差不多一定數量比例的肥胞本合肥肥所以我們想讓國體法政府"},{"start":5113.482,"end":5119.273,"text":"提出的就像剛才馮議員所說的三明治、封善治有一些理由"},{"start":5120.396,"end":5144.461,"text":"是啊所以這個人口數是多少其實我相信你們手上也都有掌握那像我們這個已經到達六七萬每個行政區都是六七萬以上的這麼多人口數的地方那其實我覺得也不用什麼好考慮的可以直接趕快納入你們第二波試用的範圍那再來當然除了這部分之外我也想要進一步請教這個客家幣的店家領選的標準是什麼"},{"start":5149.162,"end":5168.474,"text":"因為其實我特別去看了一下因為我上個會期有特別提到說這個客家幣政策很好但是跟你們合作的這些店家是真的是有符合你們推廣客家文化的精神嗎那我特別去看了一下跟你們合作的店家裡面其實有很多都是連鎖店那連鎖店包括連鎖的炸雞店連鎖的火鍋店都在你們這個"},{"start":5174.938,"end":5189.847,"text":"客家幣合作的店家範圍裡面那請問這一些連鎖店包括這些我就不講名字但是很明顯就是我們常看到的連鎖的店家這些店家真的是有符合你們使用客家幣的精神嗎"},{"start":5190.807,"end":5197.331,"text":"我們三天的端端一開始是藝術中學的商標標誌的內容是國體法政府在19年內批發的學費"},{"start":5207.017,"end":5213.021,"text":"要尋找外國合法的餐廳外國合法的餐廳很重要所以我們的經濟案要梳理成長但是我們不太能透過委員所提的目前一千八百家的餐廳地盤各種用食用途都有是的 非常劃八門所以我們的黑的結婚群用餐廳我們也要檢討"},{"start":5235.435,"end":5239.138,"text":"再一次重新提出選項我們一定要 差不多要的語言一定要講好可能調教會講好 點言不會講好像我們一樣 他的時間我們要用的副頭語連點言都會講好這樣做得難以我們"},{"start":5251.868,"end":5255.409,"text":"所以藥肺的集團我們要花營養的時間做一件事情跟粉類 藥 米的餸點 粉類出營的人 還有更多的目標我們要用來輔導我們要再細緻地做一件事情"},{"start":5269.377,"end":5292.302,"text":"OK好啊沒問題這個也是我一直在強調就是到底推廣客家文化才是最重要的嗎那不要變成說你們最後為了要框現在這個客家文化發展區裡面結果這個區域裡面很多都其實都跟客家文化有一點落差的或者是他的目的並不是如此那你們反而去補助這些店家而不是去協助這些可能"},{"start":5292.842,"end":5302.108,"text":"分散在各個 台灣各個角落但是其實他們非常認真推廣客家文化的店家那我覺得去支持這些店家是不是更有效益呢?要不然 還有一個結論 我想你思考一個是說學法有件事另外一個就是 委員所提的它的點向有提示要不然也要去討論 要去研究討論要用一年的時間跟它的政策再調整一下"},{"start":5320.202,"end":5334.441,"text":"好沒問題那我也希望接下來的這個新的政策目標是可以趕快把這些意見納進去輪動式的檢討那最後一點時間請教一下這個客家青年諮詢委員會因為我知道說你們今年4月成立了客家的青年諮詢委員會"},{"start":5335.302,"end":5349.656,"text":"我覺得這非常好我也非常肯定那當然想要請教的是就是你們資訊透明跟公開的部分我希望可以做得更好因為其實啊像我們其實有其他類似的青年諮詢委員會過去都有經驗了那我竟然現在要成立一個客家版的"},{"start":5355.081,"end":5373.514,"text":"是不是也可以比較說可以定期有一些具體的進程跟目標然後跟這些青年諮詢委員怎麼領選以及接下來的期程然後討論了什麼都可以直接放在你們的網站上然後讓大家知道說我們課委會其實針對青年都有一個這樣的委員會在執行一些工作"},{"start":5374.216,"end":5394.32,"text":"感謝委員的建議 沒錯 因為我們在提議中有很多不足的素材我們要去檢討 慢慢的調整到一個更穩定的步驟來執行 感謝委員好 沒問題 因為剛上路啦 我當然覺得這是一個好的開始那也希望接下來可以馬上精進好 謝謝主委 謝謝謝謝王菊委員 接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":5421.335,"end":5426.203,"text":"主席好有請顧主委麻煩你了"},{"start":5432.571,"end":5448.832,"text":"好 谷主委你好我們從業務報告中看到重返客庄地方創生移居計畫提供青壯年候選者分兩年"},{"start":5449.752,"end":5455.035,"text":"補助每年50萬元也就是說每岸補助的金額是100萬元目的是為了鼓勵青壯年訪鄉後移居客庄的發展輔導在低深耕並且實踐公共服務我想請教一下過去很多地方創生的項目絕大多數遭遇到的補助金"},{"start":5479.049,"end":5506.544,"text":"領完之後就後繼無力很難再繼續經營下去的狀況目前這個計畫自民國109年首度實行以來獲得補助的項目續承三年以上的比例有多少還有對於永續經營的問題是否有獲得改善"},{"start":5507.705,"end":5514.045,"text":"還是遇到哪一些問題做了哪一些改善的措施 請教一下"},{"start":5514.617,"end":5517.86,"text":"謝謝麥委員,1909年,連鎖有兩屆、兩年,在省城,地土部署的、校省的、留在地方的,除了九省留在地方,所以當然有一省的人沒辦法留下來,可能有各種原因"},{"start":5537.5,"end":5540.082,"text":"所以在我們基督徒之間 也要選擇一項好過的 親和的另外在地方的學生 他們可以向我們互相提出成為一個支持內容 一個名錄 他們可以互相提出在內跟學生的互動 都很平凡所以 也要部分 我知道"},{"start":5559.754,"end":5563.418,"text":"因爲這樣爭辯的好處所以在今年114年我們重新再次的計劃再提出來本來要展現130但是後來因爲經過委員會的討論評選選出473就因爲有特朗普委員講的暫時"},{"start":5581.497,"end":5583.118,"text":"因為報告中沒有看到你就寫沒有說九成或者是他們的成功率有哪一些比如說他成功的是有哪一些留下哪一些"},{"start":5603.482,"end":5621.074,"text":"所以说你有这样子的一份资料可以提供给我吗所以我可以就是要一一的去给他们拜访因为有这样的成功因为在地创生就是刚才说的很多就是中断所以说我们客家委员会这边可以做得那么好所以有"},{"start":5621.676,"end":5648.498,"text":"給我一份資料好不好好沒問題好再來呢就是我們查到就是科委會在109年曾經獎助了30萬給屏東科技大學科家產業研究所鄭順發教授的團隊進行了一份地方活化中的客庄創生從收縮程式理論"},{"start":5649.719,"end":5669.819,"text":"探究傳統科莊再生的困局與策略的研究 包括最後有正式每一個科莊有獨特的資源擬定科家傳統的地域發展藍圖 提出因低"},{"start":5670.78,"end":5677.805,"text":"因地制宜的發展策略 你曉得有這份報告嗎這研究報告嗎 這份報告是從2022年發表到現在已經三年了對於報告當中有提出發展策略科委會是否有拿來實際應用"},{"start":5697.169,"end":5698.69,"text":"謝謝美鳳 美鳳對全台灣的研究案都會疏離審慶所以要讓部署本人最要研究案的其中一個"},{"start":5714.974,"end":5716.875,"text":"不是我們委託他 而是他們自己想要研究對 但是你們講諸嘛 講諸他們所以說有來我的意思說有實際應用他們的建議就是有實際應用"},{"start":5736.618,"end":5739.119,"text":"她的研究報告案的價值 提出的時節提出的綜合包括非議 綜合時代下的交流等等 她提出的我會參考她的意見"},{"start":5756.049,"end":5757.789,"text":"成為我們市政的政策但是我沒有印象說 現在可以說平均有單獨一家我們可以按程義去追蹤所以因為我看到說這個報告裡面 台灣客庄地方創生的策略"},{"start":5780.635,"end":5790.323,"text":"的章節中一開始就提告談地方創生不如推動地方韌性的發展並建議將地方的弱勢團體還有在地的中初生單親家庭的成員有勞動力的資深 租民等列為優先輔導對象因為這個增增高"},{"start":5805.454,"end":5815.319,"text":"激勵會留下來的族群而且不要忽略了新住民的經濟以穩定的力量你認同嗎我認同目前留在學種的確實是我們在發展學科文化最主要的因素所以我認同"},{"start":5829.612,"end":5833.775,"text":"留下來的人 提供新住民的姐妹們 提供更多我們可以同意的是 因為我看報告裡面沒有 沒有寫到這一塊所以我就覺得說 我們現在目前有很多人認為說東南亞移工是因為家境貧窮才會來台灣工作所以忽視了他們的消費力"},{"start":5858.189,"end":5864.174,"text":"但我想要提醒大家大部分的移工很勤勞他們雖然是薪水比較低但是呢他們利用空閒的時間就是要節省自己的日常開銷比如說他們就是在自己種菜呀也能減少支出"},{"start":5876.903,"end":5879.724,"text":"時間久了也是節省一些費用但是台中激光商圈主委曾經比例我們目前有80萬的東南亞移工還有就是16萬的東南亞新住民還有我們的僑生每人只要每一個月消費3000元一年可以創造的是"},{"start":5904.411,"end":5908.932,"text":"300億的商機 而且在台灣的工業區火車站周邊很多就是形成移工商圈 還有我們的桃園中壢火車站的周邊 都有就是東南亞的G-LOG 還有台北中山北路的菲律賓的商圈"},{"start":5927.26,"end":5945.905,"text":"落幕很久的台中第一广场就是现在的东斜广场多靠这些移工来去护活的所以很多新住民家来台湾我们现在也投入的我们的社区照顾长辈儿少的照顾还有积极"},{"start":5946.605,"end":5955.592,"text":"加入社區所以願意從事的社會還有社會的服務新住民在生活或經濟上都是相對的穩定這"},{"start":5957.83,"end":5986.198,"text":"不只我說啦我們羅美玲委員也曾經說過所以我們我看到報告中又沒有這個就是參考或者列入這樣子的新住民的元素所以希望說我們不要忽略就是我們的屏東科技大學的研究這個報告中指出了不要忽略新住民的經濟與穩定力量的理由所以我們"},{"start":5987.099,"end":6002.707,"text":"想請教我們的主委 報告中沒有看到說在未來關於重返科莊還有科莊地方創生遺跡的計畫裡面是否參考這份研究"},{"start":6003.722,"end":6021.54,"text":"掌柱的30萬研究報告的建議讓我們新住民就是成為我們這個方案的發展的助力這樣的話是不是就會對我們年輕人返鄉更有"},{"start":6022.413,"end":6030.339,"text":"幫助有沒有 未來有沒有這樣子的納入因為我們花了預算也花了就是要掌力所以也花了我們的就是我們的課中"},{"start":6045.063,"end":6071.249,"text":"的一個研究還有就是說把報告提出發展策略那實際的應用才不會白花還有就是說我們也請我們的主委審慎思考給新住民一個助力給地方創生就是我們互租互利還有融合共融共融這樣子的話我覺得是對我們的年輕人返鄉的"},{"start":6074.413,"end":6086.016,"text":"就是地方創生還有在地的新住民的元素 加進來的話我相信這個計畫會更好感謝麥議員謝謝麥議員 接下來我們請牛許廷委員謝主席 谷主委有請"},{"start":6109.301,"end":6129.441,"text":"今天我們繼續來討論一下課與認證的一些政策執行的一些地方上的一些狀況這個本席在10月10號的時候在新聞上有看到一個報導說這個課與認證的學生太少因為已經到年底了所以新竹縣政府就追蹤希望說新竹縣的各級學校"},{"start":6130.356,"end":6158.177,"text":"要加強報名剛好又碰到廉價所以這學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多的工作負擔那就有一些小小的衝突吧那我想藉這樣的一個事件來跟課委會討論一下因為現在大家講課語能力的基礎或初級認證這其實是中央鼓勵大家也鼓勵課語保存希望要讓大家去響應的一個政策目標所以他有若干的測驗"},{"start":6159.568,"end":6171.477,"text":"那現在看起來都好像是以考試為主但是我想想要請教一下主委的部分這個你每一年這樣課與認證大概都通過多少人 全國全國一萬五千人左右去年 應該說今年今年到目前為止通過多少人因為今年都什麼樣的判決考試"},{"start":6186.613,"end":6208.129,"text":"還在考試所以你們都是年底統計嘛所以去年是一萬五千年前年多一點 再往前一年呢就是說你有沒有整理一個每一年的趨勢以你 以主委的了解啦這個每一年的人數是增加還減少"},{"start":6216.144,"end":6219.468,"text":"其實是減少對不對那請問主委減少的原因是什麼感受有歸導原因啦已經在學生的其實已經考過學過的就不會再過已經考過了對不會再過內考的啊我們方面學生的年數一來一少"},{"start":6235.213,"end":6250.425,"text":"學生人數本來變少 沒錯所以主要是 但是像今年 今年有增加過度到目前為止有比去年的同期過度也因此 內部在猜測可能學生幣 課金幣 有一些影響因為通過考試以後 已經做了很多學生幣去做消費"},{"start":6260.593,"end":6282.31,"text":"客家病嘛 有所謂的一個政策誘因我們回到新竹的這個案例來講啦因為按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情嘛因為鬧上了新聞他們說這個因為新竹是客家大縣所以說教育部跟客委會啊就有鎖定而且要求全縣的各國中小分成核心的非核心的然後再開始檢討他的報名人數"},{"start":6283.05,"end":6287.293,"text":"那我請問 客委會現在有給譬如各地方政府KPI嗎你每年要通過多少人做客語驗證跟議員報告 新聞黨方寫的沒有這樣我們沒有分什麼核心非核心也沒有 但是有一個事情就是我們有一個案子 客語通行與平和通行與平和 也要每一年都有判判了以後 我們有自表"},{"start":6308.709,"end":6309.369,"text":"那主委喔"},{"start":6328.942,"end":6343.879,"text":"如果你講說等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛還是有還是有指標那你們現在各個縣市比如說你以桃園來講或者是新竹都可以就是客家人口比較多的地方"},{"start":6344.397,"end":6350.159,"text":"你有要求說每一年我地方政府要通過要求多少人通過客語驗證嗎?有 因為厭司政府不可以分成兩大類一大類就是客家縣市客家縣市嘛那一大類你以客家縣市來講客家縣市因為"},{"start":6366.165,"end":6374.813,"text":"他的薪酬 學長薪酬都一度他的國務營業還有學生的通告比你的認證就要有一度他的每一年都會累積上去所以他會有指標所以會有指標如果縣市政府 地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事他的評比到最後競賽 他的名次就會往下降"},{"start":6390.865,"end":6419.802,"text":"台灣民事網站會影響你們給地方的補助或什麼的嗎會影響他的獎金影響只有獎金而已獎金而已我現在提醒主委的是現在因為你講逐年的人數他其實有一點遞減的狀況那遞減的狀況其實表示一個事就是了解這個政策而且去參與去考試的人他其實都去過了嘛就是你不可能突然之間跑出很多人然後去參加嘛第二個是本身有少子化那你用KPI我是建議不要跟"},{"start":6420.402,"end":6445.208,"text":"譬如說補助跟預算掛鉤啦你不要去造成地方政府的壓力啦對我不希望有這樣狀況你應該是鼓勵嘛好 鼓勵性質本席覺得OK你可以做保留啦那另外我要再回到新竹這個案子喔如果你們講說你們有一定到底是你們主導還是教育部主導因為相閃其實兩個單位嘛因為你要承辦這些考試等等的其實主管的機關是在學校哈比飛 潘音珍 那哈比飛"},{"start":6447.469,"end":6459.543,"text":"你辦驗證嘛那我的意思是說 怎麼劃定核心區 非核心區啊我們不是說核心 非核心那是教育部的意見嗎?還是...先主議員自己說的先主議員自己說我們在分類客家 客家提起跟非客家地區"},{"start":6469.365,"end":6490.375,"text":"因為他是講說被教育部盯上是新竹縣政府的回應那我希望是這樣推克宇都很好我們也希望用鼓勵的方式來做處理但是客觀上來講每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆也就是說因為人數宣傳達到了極限所以他的人數可能沒有辦法沒有辦法繼續往上的時候我倒不會像其他人一樣要求說你每一年KPI一定要達標"},{"start":6491.095,"end":6504.092,"text":"而是你要有一定的彈性來做檢討比如說你要了解覆蓋率我的客餘認證通過的比例按照佔客家人口的比例大概達到什麼時候他可能會撞牆那你的這個KPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正"},{"start":6504.608,"end":6530.949,"text":"不要講叫亞苗助長就是說大家好意希望他多學但是多學的時候他沒有辦法執行的時候那這個政策等於是空轉嘛那最後一天的時間我再請問除了考試之外啊這個你們課委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考就是說有沒有什麼別的方式可以來驗證或者是用比較生活化比較簡單的方式來鼓勵課語的普及跟應用呢你們有沒有做過其他的討論面對這個KPI考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下有沒有新的方向"},{"start":6531.489,"end":6541.656,"text":"有 目前我們針對無窮用年齡層的學生生育都有無窮用的做法譬如說像高中、高四、高中有三一年、高九、九十年課程就融入他們的彈性課程"},{"start":6549.006,"end":6566.721,"text":"從藝術的效果去看 學生的學習意念和理解學校文化與藝人的意念增加去讀所以藝術是一種方法對於優異學生有限有另外一種 比方說曾經是教學"},{"start":6568.402,"end":6572.985,"text":"現在已經全部合法的環境 因為生育的優異 差不多兩禮拜左右可以躺可以講 可以吃 所以有各種方法我們都會用無窮用的推動 會點下去就像VN講的 去思考無窮用的方法"},{"start":6591.905,"end":6614.652,"text":"這個相關不同的方式還有你我覺得近五年就是你有開始推課與認證考試近五年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例我希望會會後提供一份資料讓我們來做追蹤參考還有你未來有沒有什麼其他的一個因應的方式我們用這更多元的方式然後也更順暢的方式來做處理這是本期今天質詢的建議好不好 請主委參考感謝紐委員謝謝感謝感謝謝謝聶許廷委員接下來接下來我們請張宏洛委員"},{"start":6630.851,"end":6632.974,"text":"來 請谷主委 請谷主委早明眼主委好早上應該有很多人問到這個客家幣這個什麼很多的問題確實啦我個人也覺得啦在"},{"start":6651.483,"end":6678.149,"text":"散居或是在都市裡面的這一些客家鄉親尤其他開的店這次好像有一些被忽略了但我覺得客家幣這個也不是不好你們至少有心要在這個客家文化然後客家的語言 客語可以傳承我覺得出發點是好但主委 我有一個想法我們是可以溝通看看"},{"start":6681.092,"end":6709.876,"text":"我講這個店家就可以對不對那我們客家人的一個尊榮感認同感我覺得也可以再繼續加強我想請問這客家幣明年會不會再繼續我們希望做的繼續那我會想說啦 主委現在有很多的信用卡有很多的認同卡"},{"start":6710.819,"end":6721.603,"text":"那我們有沒有想說由客委會來跟比如說公股銀行或什麼的我們來發行一個客家的認同卡我是客家子弟我就第一個辦了對不對那你這個優惠你這個客家幣或什麼的我覺得"},{"start":6735.086,"end":6752.119,"text":"你如果是用一個信用卡這樣子我覺得可以長長久久不知道主委你的想法感謝總委員 我的替拜訪都這樣建議我其實沒有思考過總委員提出來我可以做到認證思考來討論可以啦 這個有一個好處"},{"start":6757.932,"end":6780.6,"text":"你不一定你的比如說你這次的客家幣一千塊但我們的預算有可能同樣的預算我們跟銀行合作然後跟店家合作有更多的優惠你的一千塊有可能變成產生一千五百塊的價值會不會有這樣因為他日白 日白跟客家幣推出來每一個年做的價值"},{"start":6785.542,"end":6792.024,"text":"鼓勵有這樣的作用有會所以我覺得主委如果你這樣的話來試試看來發想看看而且這個是長長久久的也到時候因為你們這次的客家幣有限制年齡有什麼我知道你們是希望年輕人多參與對不對但"},{"start":6809.119,"end":6823.375,"text":"信用卡應該年輕人比長輩用得多吧所以可以思考看看如果主委你也這樣子覺得的話那你們就去研究看看"},{"start":6825.674,"end":6849.172,"text":"你這個做了剛剛很多委員他們講的很多的問題其實也都可以解決啦對不對都市裡面的店家什麼的這都可以解決啦也不是不用受那個什麼重點發展30%什麼的限制你可以更廣啊這個那我覺得我先請一下那個我們的陳董事長好"},{"start":6855.441,"end":6867.845,"text":"客語確實是一直在沒落因為沒有機會講你看我小時候會講我出了社會之後 念書之後我要跟誰講對不對 我現在只懂得聽講我也不太敢講了怕講錯 怕被笑不過"},{"start":6878.154,"end":6888.416,"text":"我覺得大家都很努力在做尤其是像陳同事你們有辦一些活動或什麼的可是我還是覺得啦我個人覺得你們的這個方向好像是要拍出高品質要得獎要什麼的這些作品"},{"start":6903.635,"end":6931.281,"text":"我認為現在當務之急是讓更多人去講客家話讓更多人去認同啦這個才是重點啦那你拍出優質的電視劇或拍出得獎的什麼廣播劇我覺得那不是不好但把資源用到不對的地方啦那我們如果有這麼多資源我們有客家電視台我們有"},{"start":6933.576,"end":6955.835,"text":"客家的廣播電台什麼的我們是不是能夠來辦讓年輕人參與客家歌曲 客家的短影或什麼的讓所有人來參與每個人都是製作人你們不要花那麼多錢每個人都是製作人他可以拍我們客家這一個小村落的"},{"start":6956.533,"end":6985.773,"text":"一個特別的故事然後這個小村落一個特別的景點或什麼讓全台灣的所有的這個客家人我認為只要他會用手機用什麼的都可以來參與年齡層更大我們來辦一個這樣子的比賽那有的好的我就給你獎金啊每年來辦啊這樣子是不是更多人來參與我不知道主委跟董事長你的看法"},{"start":6986.853,"end":6991.136,"text":"完全贊同總委員的意見我們目前提到諮詢有關養生的進入戰我們會參與比賽就像總委員說的連生人都會參與比賽生人的胎兒 中學生 胎學生會符合某種的年齡層來參與比賽"},{"start":7015.37,"end":7029.076,"text":"怎麼樣的比賽內容你們可以去啦要分年齡啊或是分什麼內容或什麼其實都可以很多樣化但是如果你一直辦下去的話我覺得這就是一個鼓勵然後一個傳承年輕人也會啊這樣子跟陳董事長你們兩個聊聊天看能不能有具體的做法他已經有"},{"start":7040.093,"end":7056.619,"text":"老師 什麼一號我們已經說過了我知道什麼一號那個我知道啦我的意思是說能不能夠讓它更普及每一個人都可以當製作人我們花了那麼多錢你只拍出一部啊 對不對我們要廣真喔"},{"start":7059.7,"end":7077.985,"text":"我的意思就是廣徵啊所有的人都來啊每一個人我也可以啊廣徵喔當然是廣徵我也可以去拍我家的前面的小河啊我以前在怎麼樣那邊抓魚什麼的啊這是不是客家傳承文化的一種就是廣徵啊然後廣徵之後對不對得獎的作品我就給你錢啊對不對而且這個有個好處啊你這個"},{"start":7088.825,"end":7115.262,"text":"這個這樣子的話它傳播率會更高啊你覺得咧?要有提早不敢說因為報告我們有一個客家影像徵集計畫就那一件事情廣正好我是覺得如果主委你也認同這樣我覺得我們這樣子來試試看啦然後年長者的也要特別讓他讓他有參與那不然我們就是斷層"},{"start":7117.017,"end":7142.097,"text":"我們沒有機會講客家話 我跟你講你們的客家幣啦 我說真的 你這個店家是這樣啦我進去喔 點菜也不一定全程用客語啦我必須說真的啦我們說他可能要加強教育訓練不不不 這不是教育訓練的問題啦我跟你講這是生活習慣那有的菜名 新的菜名 客家話要怎麼講 我搞不好我也不會講"},{"start":7145.026,"end":7151.808,"text":"對不對有的很這個蔡銘用的很奇怪的你怎麼講我覺得我們要生活化好 沒問題謝謝張宏祿委員 謝謝谷主委下一位我們請黃建斌召委"},{"start":7184.97,"end":7209.732,"text":"謝謝主席主席我們請客委會顧主委請顧主委主委好主委今天是我們客委會的業務報告那很巧前天我們行政院長卓院長出席這個2025全球客家文化會議的時候有特別強調這個客家六件的政策那其中有一個很關鍵的項目就是"},{"start":7210.273,"end":7220.728,"text":"客家文化的傳承那這個也是本席今天要跟您討論的這個重點那根據111年客會會的調查在客家族群當中"},{"start":7221.533,"end":7248.17,"text":"居住在客家文化重點發展區也就是我們客家人集中居住的這個區域熟悉客語的人比例較高那非重點區域的客家民眾客語的聽說能力都大幅下降那我相信這個調查完全不意外我們早上這樣聽下來聽到大概很多人反應的是相同的我想因為環境絕對是影響語言傳播跟傳承很重要的這個關鍵因素"},{"start":7248.837,"end":7275.494,"text":"那根據我們客會的推估我們客家人口目前大概是446.9萬人那台東縣的客家人口推估大概是44200多那大概也佔了25%左右 四分之一那主要是分布在台東市還有我們的縱谷地區像是關山 池上 鹿野這些地方那因為這樣的人口的散居導致我們台東的客家文化的傳承這問題更加的嚴峻"},{"start":7276.209,"end":7298.451,"text":"主委你今天幫我提到說要落實課宇的這個學習生活化但報告裡面除了建立幼兒園的這個課宇環境之外呢那跟生活化比較有關的就是其他的真的像距離生活化的這個都還有一點距離你說正在強調說這個考照的這個技巧的提升"},{"start":7299.392,"end":7328.052,"text":"那本席認為這個不是政策的重點不是老科技是他要會講比較重要那我想這部分客人應該要重新來思考就是如何用更多的政策工具讓客語的傳承能夠真正的融合我們客家民眾的生活我想這才是真的提升母語能力這一定要從小扎根嘛那本席提出一個小小的建議我想母語的消失不是只有客語包括原住民語的這種情況"},{"start":7329.934,"end":7349.925,"text":"但原住民的族語它在傳承上還有一個特殊的媒介就是教會因為透過信仰的關係他們會上教會像我們收集到很多他們教會是用母語來宣教相對之下它也是在增加它的使用率我想像"},{"start":7351.38,"end":7366.431,"text":"我們中央有園民會他就提供這樣的經費來補助教會用主語來宣教那來保存他的語言那客會是不是也可以參考類似的模式好像很多 今天很多客家的習俗或民間團體甚至廟宇嘛"},{"start":7367.251,"end":7383.479,"text":"像本時我都說米蘭牛也好 台雞也好我們除了平常在家裡面講以外還有一個情況就是拜拜的時候廟主都會跟你說嘛你聽說 念授文什麼你都聽得懂就是我們會有習慣性的說法我想這個在客家庄應該也是可以來試看看"},{"start":7385.981,"end":7406.954,"text":"讓我們政府來提供這些獎勵政策的誘因讓我們民間合作激發更多的創意然後打破一般我們官方宣傳的框架我們營造更多元的客語的生活環境跟活動讓更多的客家族群特別是年輕人小朋友這邊願意來學習客家語言我想這個才是真的有利於我們這個語言的傳承"},{"start":7410.049,"end":7414.361,"text":"語言是一個文化的根本語言的學習就是要跟生活連結"},{"start":7415.543,"end":7441.968,"text":"那這個像接著這個在家學客語透過家庭啦社區啦民間團體跟學校共同營造這樣的這個講客語的環境才可以讓客語代代相傳那我們像以台東縣為例我們有制定一個叫幸福台東客家文化傳承計畫這個是由我們政府協助在地的這個傳統客家聚落的這個創意設計我們客家的人物客庄的這個人文建設還有產業等等那帶動整個"},{"start":7443.287,"end":7469.603,"text":"科莊的新生命具體的做法像是辦一些音樂會 戲劇或是什麼客家好食活動我想這幾年台東都有辦一些相關的活動藉由這樣讓更多現代年輕人的生活方式讓更多的年輕人來學習客家語言文化的機會同時也可以推廣本席人很喜歡的就是吃像客家美食這個部分我覺得這是我一般不同的族群要學習很快出的語言就是美食"},{"start":7470.526,"end":7499.409,"text":"我想這個可以帶動我們整個客家聚落這個產業跟觀光像我們這幾年在國內非常受到讚賞這個台東的慢食節其實就不少這樣的元素我想這些活動都頗受好評我想本市認為台東縣的這個做法方向是很好的我也希望客會能夠積極的跟我們台東縣政府甚至我們鄉鎮公所來合作依助更多的資源來協助來推廣我們客家的文化傳承"},{"start":7501.039,"end":7516.78,"text":"像我們去年台東市鹿野鄉還有關山鎮公所都有爭取相關的這些經費我記得去年是關山鎮爭取到包括客家文化祭然後語言學習計畫本席也會持續來推我們台東的客家族群"},{"start":7517.324,"end":7525.373,"text":"向各委會來爭取相關的經費辦理我們相關的一些活動那這邊也要請主委務必全力來支持請問主委這個可不可以來允諾一下感謝召委我們一定會全力支持台東的企業發展還有剛剛召委提到年初免用高費"},{"start":7535.612,"end":7540.714,"text":"建議學家可以透過廟宇、寺廟系統我相信我們要認真地思考,因為在過去幾年來學生們對於廟會、寺廟的部署其實是沒有部署的沒有部署的、沒有站出來的,但是"},{"start":7556.32,"end":7575.139,"text":"趙薇提到,我們要認真地想,並不需要補儲本寺廟,像那種家有寺廟的儀式活動,跟學界的文化存在一起,這點要用在結合,我們要認真地思考,感謝趙薇提供的意見"},{"start":7576.72,"end":7601.465,"text":"對 謝謝主委主委本席其實之前有參加過鹿野鄉一個很特別的一個叫大園水之祭他就在紀念早期先民敏克園外的四個族群共同開發水源的一個廟宇祭祀活動我覺得這個非常棒甚至讓我們都覺得說這個除了有歷史上的意義以外我想在透過信仰這邊來推動我想這個也可以更代表我們客家族群這個"},{"start":7604.535,"end":7621.233,"text":"這個叫吃苦耐勞的這個精神所以看到400年前我們客家祖先為了躲避災難來到我們台灣面對惡劣的環境和資源的競爭這個客家的族群的這個特質就是堅毅不拔跟吃苦耐勞才有今天的發展我想面對我們"},{"start":7621.769,"end":7641.421,"text":"文化的這個消失我們專案地方務必好好來合作共同來面對喔台東縣已經有很多成功的這個經驗也請主委繼續跟我們來合作一起支援我們來共同推廣這樣的一個族裔的這個復興那也謝謝主委今天的訊息謝謝感謝召委感謝謝謝謝謝黃婕銘召委謝謝國修費主委"},{"start":7673.464,"end":7690.781,"text":"好 現在我們請徐玉珍委員發言謝謝主席我們請古秀菲主委請古主委"},{"start":7694.761,"end":7720.157,"text":"CVM好谷主委好谷主委您的客家委员会的这个刚刚您的报告里面我们可以看到内容非常的丰富有涵盖了客语传承青年参与还有这个产业创新然后区域的建设影音推广跟国际交流不同的面向的一个施政的成果跟未来的展望那本席现在要就您"},{"start":7720.817,"end":7731.826,"text":"前幾天參加我們的這個全國全球客家文化會議上面你有提到就是說今年是乙未戰爭130週年所以說每個時代都有這個時代面對的困難那2025我們有個惡鄰居說要併吞台灣用各種的方式分裂我們我們都知道乙未戰爭130週年是台灣近代史上最悲壯的一頁"},{"start":7749.565,"end":7754.066,"text":"當時的清朝在甲午戰敗之後簽訂馬關條約被迫將台灣割讓給日本而台灣人民因為不甘被殖民被外國侵略所以爆發了這個乙衛戰爭那乙衛戰爭之後呢我們的客家鄉親也在中間扮演了一個非常重要的一個角色包括我們的乙衛三節也率領客家鄉親呢浴血奮戰最後壯烈的犧牲所以"},{"start":7774.45,"end":7782.553,"text":"主委剛剛提到的你在全球客家文化會議上面所講的這個2025的惡靈居是誰那1895的惡靈居又是誰那就是好所以1895的惡靈居是日本2025的惡靈居是中國你是這樣的意思嗎我們可以看到"},{"start":7803.939,"end":7806.42,"text":"二戰這個抗戰勝利今年是80週年那賴清德總統在軍人節或是在國慶的演說方面都只講中戰而不講我們是抗戰勝利而您在乙衛的這個戰爭的紀念活動中您也不講抗日而是改稱抵抗日本現代化的軍事而剛剛你也講了1895年併吞台灣的惡靈居就是日本"},{"start":7828.584,"end":7831.793,"text":"那客家人抵抗也是事實但是客委會卻不敢明講就是在幫日本對外侵略進行美化嗎而且"},{"start":7837.376,"end":7864.363,"text":"這個客家這個我們的政府對民族的歷史也避而不談所以我們要怎麼去教育下一代的所謂的國家尊嚴那客為為補助的這個抗日三節的這個舞台劇那你要叫他怎麼演客家精神要怎麼傳承因為以為三節的鮮血絕對不是為了抵抗日本現代化的軍事而流他們是為了不讓台灣被當作日本殖民地為的是中華民國的尊嚴所以他們是為了"},{"start":7865.343,"end":7874.55,"text":"這個中華民國的尊嚴而留的鮮血所以歷史應該是要說真話那執政者也要有勇氣面對真相谷主委您覺得呢我想沒問題 也要我們都照事實來說我們在黨方說法我們沒有說暗沖我們沒有跟屬於歷史全部說出來我們很簡單說"},{"start":7886.438,"end":7894.48,"text":"但是他會告訴各位清楚董事件面對那個一個日本要統治台灣的對 所以就是我們是抗戰勝利80週年而不是中戰那我們對抗的是日本這個惡鄰居而不是像你們講的就是什麼對抗日本現代化的軍事洩漏希望這個史實我們在教育我們的下一代尤其是我們的客家鄉親客家三傑又有占也這麼重要的一個角色所以還是希望主委"},{"start":7915.287,"end":7935.841,"text":"在一些公開的場合要提供給我們客家鄉親一個正確的史實的觀念讓他們清楚我們這個客家三節是為了抗戰而流的鮮血是為了保衛國家不讓這個我們台灣成為殖民地而做的犧牲所以這個部分主委是不是能夠做到那就是我們未來要提的事件"},{"start":7938.114,"end":7938.995,"text":"講得更清楚謝謝主委另外針對客家幣的政策您在報告中提到透過發放284,722份的1千塊的客家幣"},{"start":7952.062,"end":7958.008,"text":"可以建構生活化的課宇使用環境並活絡課莊的經濟那請問一下對於這個總共發放的28萬份1000塊大概要花2億8千多萬那請問大概會帶來多少的這個預估的效益"},{"start":7969.379,"end":7972.52,"text":"會帶動多大的這個經濟產值跟委員報告那價值用公共區來統計已經是收費的一千三百空六千元已經會帶領一個人用於基礎的方法要提的前提聽你的那個我們發放二十八萬份以致頭白的經驗五百二十八萬份全部來使用用七成"},{"start":7995.486,"end":7996.607,"text":"所以是多少經濟產值經濟產值差不多我有4億多將近5萬我想請教一下這個客家幣我看到你的報寫說這是今年的創舉"},{"start":8013.078,"end":8028.991,"text":"那我想請教一下就是我們在110年的時候有發行客裝券2.0的這個專案那我看了一下這個客裝券的專案發覺跟你的客家幣幾乎是一模一樣嘛他在這個這邊說這個專案預計發放的金額是預計花費是兩億元提供40萬份客家裝券那當然就每份是500元就像"},{"start":8040.188,"end":8055.559,"text":"你在上個會期在回覆我們的你們本來預計發放40萬嘛只是後來變28萬那這其實就跟客庄券2.0的專案一模一樣啊所以我不曉得為什麼客家幣叫做今年叫創舉只是改一個名稱從客庄券"},{"start":8056.298,"end":8085.191,"text":"客家券变成客家币那就变成是创新的那我觉得这就是完全不是一个新的政策而是一个旧的政策的一个延续而且您刚提到大概是4到5亿因为可能只有7成可是您知道吗当时在客委会的这份专案报告里面你知道他提到的刚刚是说花2亿的预算预估会带动总产值于16亿元"},{"start":8086.021,"end":8089.104,"text":"也就是說你花了2億8你預估會帶動4億多元可是當時我們客委會只要花2億就可以帶動預計16億的產值所以不是你給自己的標準太低就是低估了現在能夠帶成的一個效益"},{"start":8102.097,"end":8109.2,"text":"那如果花這麼多錢又沒有辦法達到具體的效益的話那請問一下這個客家幣你覺得因為從現在8月1號開始發放開始使用嘛到明年5月那您覺得這個客家幣目前會有什麼樣的成效呢"},{"start":8116.584,"end":8123.789,"text":"您的報告說我們在思考議案問題的時節跟課狀卷是不一樣的就像我們剛才有回答議員的問題是哪裡不一樣?我們過去有講過學的宋典的一端另外一端當然是學合法但是它沒有提供使用十五年前學委會就在思考說"},{"start":8140.98,"end":8167.655,"text":"講合法人用的那些不可以講合法的商店做用合法的交易使用交易那些事情沒有影響它所以我們今天就想要跟用業的方式因為都高興有客座間的經驗所以我們用業的方式來創成一個消費網那像這個專案您針對這個部分您覺得如何可以帶動這個客語的一個活化的客語的使用環境"},{"start":8168.223,"end":8176.708,"text":"你覺得能夠帶來預期多大的效益目前我們看到對我們每張頁有檢討費每一個月檢討費目前已經八 九 兩個月了嘛兩張頁那檢討費這兩個月你們目前得到的成效是怎樣目前我們整堆民眾跟送店都有本文券而且門間門員使用合法的比例一國"},{"start":8192.506,"end":8195.549,"text":"目前使用合法的比例差不多有7-10%沒有多於5%我們在問他還有一個問題那就是他有幾分會用主動用合法嗎他都表示說不會所以要有一個政策上的引導其實我今天會提出來這個"},{"start":8210.996,"end":8226.452,"text":"這個問題主要就是要點出因為我們現在才用兩個月嘛未來還有到明年的這個使用的時間還有很長的時間所以我希望是這筆錢是能夠發揮真正的效益不管是你要提升課餘的能力或者是帶動經濟的產生這是你兩大主要的目的"},{"start":8228.427,"end":8234.072,"text":"都能夠有具體的成效那時間還很長所以我覺得針對剛剛本席所提出來的各項問題希望你們能夠記取過去我們客家莊券的這個實施的一個成果所帶來的效益跟現在你的客家幣想要帶來什麼樣的效果我們還有很長的時間可以去好好的調整跟施行"},{"start":8248.956,"end":8252.377,"text":"因為其實我想每一份錢都是納稅人的血汗錢我們不該浪費公帑不是把這個錢丟到而且我更重視的這是單次的我們希望還是要有長期的因為這畢竟是短期的一個成效那未來的長期的成效你們要怎麼來去使用而不是就是錢花了花完就沒事了還是希望能夠做到這樣那不好意思最後一個問題是想要請教這個主委就是"},{"start":8275.263,"end":8303.246,"text":"有關我們在這個課委會有積極推動客家影音這個音劇那我們可以看一下這個最後一頁這個客家影音劇的收視率您可以看一下大概觀看次數我現在看到的就最低的大概是69次最高的是大概1321次這是我們在2025的專題的客家影音劇"},{"start":8304.704,"end":8320.516,"text":"那請問一下這個成績主委滿意嗎我想請教一下我們客委會的同仁有多少位客家中心一百六十幾位"},{"start":8321.65,"end":8349.751,"text":"好 如果每個同仁都點也不只69次更何況是整個我們客家的鄉親有這麼多幾十萬人所以針對這樣的影音劇的一個收視不是有拍了就好 有播了就好而是要怎麼提高大家觀看的次數你才能夠達到真正我們希望達到的一個效果也真正能夠達到你希望能夠推展不管是客家語言或是客家文化的一個效果所以這個部分是不是請主委要特別的這個"},{"start":8351.692,"end":8366.499,"text":"請同仁能夠特別來去製作不管是大家所希望看的客家的影音劇或者是提高我們觀看的收視人口好嗎我認同齊委員所說的我認同所以要掌聲鼓勵我認同 完全贊同好 謝謝 謝謝各位感謝齊委員好 謝謝徐宇甄委員接下來我們請李博義委員發言"},{"start":8386.243,"end":8388.064,"text":"有請谷主委請谷主委謝謝谷主委 辛苦了那我們每次在詢答課委會的時候 谷主委都全程客語讓我們也有機會來學習一點點客語 但是我還是帶著"},{"start":8407.199,"end":8432.162,"text":"翻譯的耳機來詢答你那我首先那針對其實剛剛我們幾乎所有的委員會的委員對於客家幣都非常的關心之外那我針對於客委會的業務報告裡面強化後生海外交流拓展人文光環視野的這個海外青年英語服務營"},{"start":8433.642,"end":8448.284,"text":"這個活動我其實非常的表示肯定跟關心那這個其實讓我們現在的客家莊我們比較客家比例比較高的客家莊裡面"},{"start":8450.166,"end":8471.244,"text":"學童可以講課語的比例 我們有沒有辦法來做一個統計或者是大概的情況是怎樣 我們課委會現在的掌握狀況是怎樣有統計 目前學童 雖然說學法的比例沒有多百分之十多"},{"start":8472.315,"end":8489.908,"text":"那跟其實一般我們的學校裡面小朋友講閩南語的比例可能也是差不多那一樣如果在海外這一些不管是講閩南語的可以學閩南語的甚至"},{"start":8490.455,"end":8516.846,"text":"他也是客家人的後代可以學習客語的那透過這一個強化後生海外交流這一個活動我相信會有蠻大的一個助益啦那所以我在這邊看到這個名額是大概只有20位我希望或者是30位那我希望客委會這邊跟僑友會這邊是不是在明年度也可以來討論要增加相關的這些名額以及地區"},{"start":8517.944,"end":8528.067,"text":"我們希望不管是美洲或者是澳洲或者是歐洲那我們都可以透過巧合會的來推廣讓這個文化可以繼續傳承尤其是語言的部分那我針對客家幣再來做一些"},{"start":8549.553,"end":8575.826,"text":"質詢那我們目前客家幣我覺得還蠻有創意的如果說要營造這個客語環境然後要去抽然後有28500份名額對不對28萬份28萬份28萬份名額那每一個名額是可以抽到1000塊的客家幣那這1000塊的客家幣它的資格目前我看到的是這樣子"},{"start":8576.963,"end":8600.556,"text":"有獲表揚的客語家庭成員第二個是2025年通過客語能力認證者那第三個是18到49歲的本國籍國民本國籍民眾那其實我想要建議主委的這邊的是說其實何不從小學或者是國中就開始讓他們有資格來使用這個客家幣呢"},{"start":8601.463,"end":8602.304,"text":"多年以前麥當勞他大麥克在做促銷你只要去麥當勞講一句"},{"start":8632.563,"end":8655.524,"text":"講一句類似大麥克的話那你就會得到大麥克的特價我覺得如果說每個小孩都學一句客語的話我覺得這個也是可以思考的方向這邊提供主委做一些參考另外其實客家幣的由來跟文化幣當時也是有一些可能是從這邊發想過來的"},{"start":8657.608,"end":8685.14,"text":"那但是文化幣有出現一些問題那文化幣當時也被收集然後可能打個折用現金賣掉去換一些現金回來客家幣其實我們在網路也遇到這個拋售的問題了那我希望客委會也可以及時的趕快來提出來如果跟文化幣有相關有相同的問題出現的時候我們希望是推廣嘛你先不要講效益有多少"},{"start":8685.62,"end":8700.317,"text":"我覺得推廣就是語言然後進而你剛剛又講到一個重點就是也可以推廣觀光再來談效益那我希望客委會針對這個客家幣可能在網路上有這些拋售的問題也提出一個解決的方法"},{"start":8702.82,"end":8707.402,"text":"謝謝李委員 關於創業的問題我可以這樣諷刺 目前我們跟文化幣最不允許用的就是個人的數位支付錢包 所謂的錢七成一百多元個人 他無法賣 不能賣"},{"start":8726.449,"end":8728.53,"text":"因為你的綁定的關係這些方法會不會影響到客家幣的使用的這個方便性"},{"start":8748.357,"end":8775.07,"text":"他不是实体券他是绑银行这样就有数位落差的问题所以你限制是在49岁以下那49岁以上的呢有很多阿伯他们因为这个停车场他没有LiPay没有办法进去停车有一些抱怨那其实我们是如果要推广的话也应该要让这些有数位落差的人是可以用的那同样的小朋友他这个叫做"},{"start":8776.707,"end":8784.251,"text":"帳戶落差啦 小朋友哪有什麼金融卡所以這個課委會 應該我們在推廣的方式也是可以去兼顧到這一些廣泛性感謝李委員我們年輕一階段 壓倒問題 都要去解決那就是要開封 要跟年齡下降 提升整個全年開封那方面壓倒問題要思考 要解決 要選"},{"start":8803.662,"end":8818.935,"text":"預知問題 體政策當中應用的處理好 謝謝主委 最後我翻遍了所有的賀爾會業務報告我翻不到過去的這個推廣的"},{"start":8819.417,"end":8842.91,"text":"跟觀光有關的台三線浪漫大道也曾經被某位委員說台三線是哪三條線主線在哪裡後繼有人啊居然可以把鳳山水庫台電的招標案搞成是前市長要招標的招標案真的是在這邊表達非常的遺憾跟可笑謝謝好感謝李綺燕"},{"start":8846.638,"end":8850.202,"text":"謝謝李博弈委員 接下來請吳祁銘委員好 主席我們議會同仁請我們客委會我們的谷主委請谷主委"},{"start":8869.308,"end":8889.888,"text":"好 主委好主委 針對你擔任我們課委會主委其實本席看了很多資料你在不管是在影視的作品以及仙島 以及戲劇的獎項真的這成績都是算"},{"start":8890.95,"end":8919.97,"text":"不錯的成績所以現在大家都在討論就是我們的客家幣那客家幣其實你宣傳的力道還是不過因為很多人都不曉得那你說你發放了28萬個就一個就代表1000塊那就2億8千萬那2億8千萬你真正"},{"start":8921.065,"end":8944.891,"text":"照顧到我們客家族群還有一般的民眾來抽獎你認為這個效果好不好?確實我們的宣傳還不太白可是有幾多民眾不敵法國教育委員會到目前為止回饋整個大部分支持的面相擴大"},{"start":8947.575,"end":8972.067,"text":"對,因為很多民眾他們都還是不清楚,那本息比較納悶在我們的新北市,新北市我看,欸,領了客家幣也沒有辦法去在新北市都沒有設計點來兌換,來消費,那新北市在我們客家的族群,在新北市算是一個非常多的一個族群的"},{"start":8973.26,"end":8978.923,"text":"的落腳地那為什麼新北市會沒有呢這一點是不是主委你來做說明好不好我們一般的體育派含在整堆學校創建發展區設設備鄉鎮市區去做招募送店的工作設設備要在創建發展區以外我們就沒有開封"},{"start":8999.573,"end":9025.018,"text":"所以新北市台北市就不要拖累因為我們新北市客家族群是一個非常龐大的人口積極的地方光是新北市我們客家族群好像67萬多那你67萬多你今年要是辦得不錯那是不是考慮"},{"start":9025.717,"end":9041.943,"text":"明年在新北也是要有一個可以讓我們客家族群來做消費的地方我可以聽一次明年聽一次潘理的時間他要意見我們南一內就思考要開封替他其實要重點發展去以外的地方包括新北市送店也做的運用我可以去考慮我可以去思考"},{"start":9056.116,"end":9077.095,"text":"對 這樣才能便利到我們所有的客家族群以及民眾 大家一起來消費也刺激了我們的產業觀光嘛那本席這邊還有一個建議就是在新北的地方 我們的記錄非常多但是唯獨就是沒有一個聚會所"},{"start":9078.437,"end":9099.173,"text":"所以那個人口那麼多你算是在我們山陰山陰有個客家園區那你看在本席這個選區土城土城也是非常多的客家客家族群 板橋也是很多那未來是不是來籌授一個客家的記錄"},{"start":9100.759,"end":9101.5,"text":"我也是拜託我們的主委是不是跟"},{"start":9126.691,"end":9142.46,"text":"新北市市政府來聯絡因為現在新北市很多都是我們的七段徵收的土地那土地剩餘的公有的土地也是非常多我們還是要主動嘛 主動跟他們聯繫好不好好 我也要請三亞金資處的特理處長跟新北市主統來聯絡看有什麼需求嗎 提案"},{"start":9153.953,"end":9182.517,"text":"好的好謝謝主委謝謝你謝謝吳秦明委員接下來我們請徐欣盈委員發言謝謝主席有請谷主委請谷主委"},{"start":9189.057,"end":9204.522,"text":"主委好今天有一些比較我覺得蠻重要的問題所以沒關係我國語客語參雜我希望大家可以關注首先我要請問"},{"start":9206.328,"end":9235.239,"text":"因為我們客家委員會客家委員會很重要的我們是要整個推動我們的客語還有客家文化甚至振興我們客庄的經濟對不對沒錯但是我很好奇有一點我們主委上任以來你應該要了解說我們整個台灣客家重點發展區"},{"start":9236.448,"end":9256.897,"text":"到底現在譬如說我們講客家話的人的情況逐年我們看我們的實施成效有沒有一些成果在過去我們客家文化重點發展區都有一些數據我看到我們客會從105年到110年都會去有一些數據分析"},{"start":9262.369,"end":9275.324,"text":"要不然110年以後就沒有了VN報說 要調查是5年以後所以105年 110年5年調查100"},{"start":9281.813,"end":9307.325,"text":"兩年調查一百喔總不定我們一次政權是四年那都不知道那四年做得怎麼樣當然這中間有跨嘛可能是跨兩個政權所以原來是因為這樣所以就等於是那這個是不是應該要調一下譬如兩年或三年因為挑白一開始的時間是兩年一百一開始是當年就調查後來兩年後來是五年因為"},{"start":9309.406,"end":9314.288,"text":"我會請專家學者來諮詢專家學者社會研究調查社會研究學者說一個比較可以長期看到的趨勢是五年所以就採用學者的建議五年就做一百"},{"start":9329.836,"end":9343.353,"text":"那這個我覺得就很危險了因為我們看到在105到110年我們不管是客庄的這種整體客家民眾能夠聽懂客語的比例"},{"start":9344.514,"end":9364.822,"text":"就下降了8%你們知道嗎那這五年我們不知道包括這幾年我們每年這樣尤其主委上任這兩年我們也等於客戶會的預算快百億沒有也將近啦80億以上加上之前的沒有啦沒有啦兩年啦兩年加起來有80億"},{"start":9370.844,"end":9394.875,"text":"這個預算一年就三四十碼總得用兩年加那個算啦兩年會供你的任期啊你現在在做著這兩年所以好啦每年幾十億這樣總可以啦大家都有意見每年幾十億這樣子花結果我們都看不到成果那你看我們不管是客語聽得懂客語的比例下降"},{"start":9395.935,"end":9423.153,"text":"還有這客語聽說能力跌幅在非客庄地區當然重點是客庄非客庄地區也跌了快20% 16%所以像這些我們就發現你每5年才知道所以這個東西每年每年還是可以統計才對包含還有我們這個客家特別是我們的客庄地區人口流失"},{"start":9424.073,"end":9452.402,"text":"人口流失很多那你又要振興客庄的經濟那人口你又留不住這是很大的問題所以這一塊我們希望還是可以來研討一下看看不然三年嘛三年總要這個或者是我們只要換一個主委上來可能都要先確認一下了解一下現況這是第一個那再來就是我們這個看到"},{"start":9454.349,"end":9478.762,"text":"我們這個客家幣我們這個客家幣這個花費那客家幣最主要我們是希望可以振興客庄的經濟推動客語的傳承那可是我們好像都沒有振興到客庄的經濟尤其你們客家幣的這個評估它的成效我發現"},{"start":9480.365,"end":9495.219,"text":"前後一直變化你們那個成效好像是隨你喊的沒有啦 因為一開始我們定的每個人領用的額度不一樣"},{"start":9497.694,"end":9501.758,"text":"500、800後來是1000所以那個政策會一直討論一直討論最後才會定案那目前我們今年的這個客家幣好像預計發出重簽的是254,722份"},{"start":9518.177,"end":9522.719,"text":"對 28萬那28萬4722份但是你們評估的效益因為我發現我們這個客家幣是希望他們去客庄消費甚至我看你們都預估一個人會帶另一個人你們都覺得他最少會帶一位平均帶"},{"start":9546.912,"end":9563.55,"text":"根據觀光署這樣子的推估對 觀光但是不太適合客家幣 為什麼因為你覺得它會帶一個人但實際上我們發現你們可以去了解這客家幣抽到以後它可能就是個人的日常消費"},{"start":9564.926,"end":9577.851,"text":"他可能就个人日常消费有一些也许他不再客装的他必须要去客装可能会有一些所以这一个部分的评估效益"},{"start":9578.72,"end":9607.599,"text":"我們感受沒有在振興我們客家所以我時間的關係我特別要提出來我們是不是可以振興客庄經濟那一般人尤其你又希望帶動消費的話一般人就是吃喝玩樂嘛對不對所以我們是不是可以扶植一些比較有特色的客家飲食包含譬如說你講板條板條到處都有但是特別有特色的或者是你辦個比賽"},{"start":9609.42,"end":9627.508,"text":"那在客庄区全国的客庄区办比赛每个区块他真的很有特色他得奖的你特别扶植他然后他又特别有特色的你可以请一些专家来一些评审他们来评那特别有特色的"},{"start":9628.348,"end":9656.899,"text":"所有人聽了 知道以後它會帶動一種觀光效果那所以客家的美食是我指的是有特色因為我們客家美食到處都有那你到處都有 最後好像也沒有那種吸食效應還有點心嘛客家的點心也是那有一些比較有特色的像這個牛粉水你不要動肚嘛動肚應該不要吃苦那所以"},{"start":9657.299,"end":9680.667,"text":"我們可以去找出這種特色甚至你們透過辦比賽找出特別有特色的你也可以特別的扶植我們總是希望我們納稅人的錢那客委會在用的時候真的能夠用出有成效然後再來就是客家的人口客家的語言 客家的文化我們真正是能夠保存的"},{"start":9681.187,"end":9707.327,"text":"好 什麼其餘的意見要同時討論對 所以有一些細項我想我們這一個會期也剛好省預算在預算的時候我們可以在細部的來討論所以我們是支持 非常支持客委會我們也希望我們客家文化整個可以真的傳承而且保存下來"},{"start":9708.007,"end":9713.089,"text":"所以我們共同來努力 好嗎好 聲蒙 聲蒙 起筆菸 起筆菸 謝謝感謝好 謝謝許卿英委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在"},{"start":9731.663,"end":9745.855,"text":"葉元之委員 葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在賴慧媛委員 賴慧媛委員 賴慧媛委員不在林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在"},{"start":9746.716,"end":9760.824,"text":"邱志維委員 邱志維委員 邱志維委員不在羅明財委員 羅明財委員 羅明財委員不在蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在現在請徐副國務委員發言謝主席 請顧主委"},{"start":9774.988,"end":9803.887,"text":"市委員 主委請拜託各位創業的事情 別說拜託 昨天在核桿子體六堆建炮車 昨天六堆創業的公園民俗活動民營判的規模應有應得但是付出的錢都沒有增加過從一百一千一年到一百一十四件一年有兩百萬 不勞煩的 主委我們在法庭 六堆"},{"start":9804.711,"end":9830.704,"text":"還有一個傳統民俗的一個慶典而且是全國的客庄十二大的一個節慶活動如果有機會可以告訴我們嗎?根據你的報告兩百兩百萬下落多萬民營有很大困難因為民營才化法的關係我們合理非要不出本提供政府的感一般"},{"start":9831.656,"end":9840.739,"text":"變一般變一百萬所以都沒有增加在韓國售所以要補儲問題方法通一百萬上限所以才化法影響我們提出的民研醫生售的西醫人我們民研醫生目前提三十五億九"},{"start":9856.753,"end":9861.918,"text":"主席 民主黨的問題有什麼想法可以處理嗎因為亞洲各縣市的人才辦法保護我們的遺孫變小做的補儲本提供的方法很安排所以我們有跟國安司在審議的時間有收購一個分額"},{"start":9882.235,"end":9890.442,"text":"本來就是我本體防政府第一像體防政府在體溫的時節 其他就要有想法要體內的溫度 因為納土是固定的其他要先鼓勵一百就差不多了 要先鼓勵一百但是問題"},{"start":9900.819,"end":9910.668,"text":"主委你們要好好注意面對暗斗的嚇到鄉親的期待錢沒了呢 因為也要想辦法啦不是因為說 總得這樣越沒人要買園民會暗斗錢 他們的課位 他們的人生這樣壓到總批 這樣想到沒所謂的"},{"start":9922.095,"end":9931.282,"text":"我們跟希望政府合作的時候就是過去用補儲的方式補儲金就這樣我們看有其他合作的方式嗎所以在今天要維持這樣的規模主委我們在目前沒辦法做事情但是補儲我們一定還是要去檢討好的案例 重要的案例有意義的案例應該可以用來處理不然說補儲到200萬"},{"start":9951.93,"end":9966.958,"text":"貧窮縣政府要貼多少錢貧窮縣政府每年要銷毫四十萬億還要再賺多少要用的有樣子主委應該要想辦法去處理這樣一定要支持我們但是我們要針對貧窮縣政府面對的藥療醫生不勞白的事情應該要做現場的事"},{"start":9977.423,"end":9989.446,"text":"要補充的錢要補啊不然我們要整套平衡可能我們鄉親他跟我們問說要用不足平衡不足平衡要供養我們要供養兩人就要面對過一套壓力啦好不好因為我們現在要問的問題供養你的客家畢業的政策像平衡我們松柏有諮詢過特約上面從六十幾件變成一萬兩一百二十八件輸給其他的客家"},{"start":10006.209,"end":10009.09,"text":"鄉鎮暑假期間的延遲暑假期間的延遲暑假期間的延遲暑假期間的延遲暑假期間的延遲暑假期間的延遲"},{"start":10032.176,"end":10041.064,"text":"他也有可能 另外他的行動支付他也有可能錄影感不方便 過度點可能就沒辦法用 要用的調整嗎我們有專業站去教我們送點 用的省錢 要數位支付的內容 用的處理 但是前提"},{"start":10059.874,"end":10067.738,"text":"要點價 要年宜 價值 前提可以說英國的集合財稅單位 要輔導加快 因為要方便 好用 年費用它們的手續案反鎖 又要錄影 又不可以又不可以說民意提供中有效性的處理要自通 要自通 要點價 要請主委 您要看 針對我們文化發電站的部分第一個不愧是天使"},{"start":10089.144,"end":10094.891,"text":"我們還有提防 需要處理 包含要重新來盤點要不要預算放下 包含但是不可以靠於傳承的問題"},{"start":10103.083,"end":10108.206,"text":"包含我們學校 沙塘的藝文活動中都沒有錢給補助我們要變成文化斷層 各位創業員 麻煩你們我們要改善 我們要看到我們醫生變成這樣 地方相對要沒有增加所以其實我們出師主管全部都有提出我們的問題就恰恰又扣邊緣 所以還有其他問題"},{"start":10131.956,"end":10157.347,"text":"當然我們努力採訪 重新討論尤其像總統說的 均衡台灣發展否則六都和非六都天壤地別 也不公平尤其我們合作 按照提防 按照好文化繼續做 再做事情 好不好好 好 強行努力強行努力 感謝 感謝齊委員"},{"start":10164.8,"end":10174.774,"text":"謝謝徐副葵委員接下來高津素梅委員高津素梅委員高津素梅委員不在"},{"start":10177.441,"end":10200.863,"text":"登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘已發言完畢 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振現法及遊說法等陽光四法的主管機關仍主動積極向主管機關提出實務上執行的問題及意見"},{"start":1957.948,"end":1969.238,"text":"並且與貴院審查該等法案的時候充分表達資訊提供修法意見以下就扼要的報告有關於立法計畫跟修法意見的部分"},{"start":1971.072,"end":1987.371,"text":"有關監察院的立法計畫的情況第一個要說明的是有關於監察法的部分條文修正草案希望能夠增列人權專章為了使國家人權委員會行使國家人權委員會組織法第二條所規範的各項職權"},{"start":1989.293,"end":2014.21,"text":"有所依循而且符合巴黎原則所揭示的職責與國際接軌發揮國家人權機構促進及保障人權的功能本院依據立法院在108年12月30號三讀通過國家人權委員會組織法的時候所做的附帶決議拟據了監察法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2016.111,"end":2044.19,"text":"並經第十屆 第五會期司法及法制委員會審訊交付黨團協商為未能完成三讀本院已於去年113年的7月15日再度提出草案送請貴院審議並於113年9月20日經立法院的會議一讀交付司法及法制委員會審查期盼能夠儘速完成立法程序"},{"start":2044.95,"end":2065.109,"text":"第二部分是有關於陽光司法的部分陽光司法是財生法、立沖法、政憲法及遊說法主管機關分別為法務部跟內政部本院雖然不是陽光司法相關法律的主管機關但是法律掌理陽光司法相關的業務"},{"start":2066.751,"end":2090.032,"text":"業務在執行業務的過程中如果發現有摯愛或者是應該要修法要改善都會主動向法律的主管機關提出修法的建議意見並積極的參與各有相關的修法會議其中政治獻金法修法草案內政部是在一百零九年的六月三十號已經函送給行政院來審查"},{"start":2091.793,"end":2118.299,"text":"統計到114年的10月本月2號共計行政院已經召開過11次的審查會議可是還沒有完全審訊又有關於遊說坊的主管機關內政部也是在110年的4月29日已經幫已經將遊說坊的部分條文修正草案送到行政院來審查行政院也於隔年的"},{"start":2119.139,"end":2141.814,"text":"1月26號召開會議已經審查完成後續將由內政部依照會議的決議向立法院這邊先行溝通以希望能夠順利完成修法在此感謝貴院對於本院的支持協助本院諸多憲法所賦予的職權以及其他的事項還有相關的業務的推動"},{"start":2142.834,"end":2150.16,"text":"監察院當積極的發揮監察職權致力保障人民權益維護社會公義以上報告敬請指教謝謝"},{"start":2153.753,"end":2181.342,"text":"好 謝謝機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容我們請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘那必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間5分鐘並不再延長那我們上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員"},{"start":2182.762,"end":2183.463,"text":"好 謝謝主席麻煩有請監察院代理秘書長請代理秘書長戴秘書長好"},{"start":2202.782,"end":2230.018,"text":"今天看到監察院114年度的立法計畫其實大概這幾頁你大概自己看完也知道監察院的立法計畫就是今年度也其實沒有什麼立法計畫一言以蔽之就這樣子同仁也蠻辛苦的還想辦法寫了三頁我看了也是蠻佩服的其實一行字寫出來監察院本年度沒有什麼立法計畫這樣就好了然後寫了一堆"},{"start":2232.526,"end":2253.052,"text":"我也不曉得該說是形容詞還是副詞不過沒有關係也為難你們了雖然沒有立法計畫監察院還沒有裁測該做的事情還是要做監察院在進行調查事項的時候面對行政機關如果行政機關提出虛偽不實的文件監察院怎麼處理"},{"start":2256.919,"end":2282.04,"text":"包委如果說中央或者地方的公務員或者是公務機關涉及到違法失職監察院會依法因為違法失職就比較抽象在你們進行調查的時候提供虛偽不實的內容文件算不算違法失職如果是認定屬實的話如果是認定屬實我帶你來看之前針對"},{"start":2284.079,"end":2305.888,"text":"有關於在綠能發展的過程當中很早期我們的蔡英文政府在嘉義的役主搞了漁電共生漁電共生那個時候是浩大喜功風光簡采官員業者排排站拍的照很好看"},{"start":2307.093,"end":2329.587,"text":"然後告訴全台灣人民的是農業經營結合綠能專案發展計畫魚電共生基本上它的本質就是在魚池上面搞光電板繼續養魚提高整個漁場他們基本上的收益或者是說在發電上面它可以提供的貢獻"},{"start":2331.108,"end":2360,"text":"如果說漁電共生對漁業的養殖不會造成破壞對環境生態不會造成破壞好好搞沒有違法濫權沒有胡搞瞎搞我相信人民也不會反對但大家在質疑的事情是說民意上是漁電共生搞了半天只有電沒有漁簡單來講就是以漁電共生當作民意當作藉口當作幌子"},{"start":2360.854,"end":2386.884,"text":"在養殖池上面搞光電板可是根本沒有養魚的事實台南嘉義一族全國第一個最大也是蔡英文政府大內宣的漁電共生場我們來看一看去年11月立法院考察嘉義一族漁電共生案場接下來請戴秘書長仔細看"},{"start":2389.689,"end":2400.875,"text":"經濟部檢報 我把它框起來了檢報單位是經濟部台瀝綠能布袋一族光電案場第一期現刊檢報單位經濟部那右手邊是檢報的內容我們看一下檢報的內容檢報的內容在那個漁電工商案場裡面的F區裡面"},{"start":2415.271,"end":2442.587,"text":"養殖池 養殖中 蓄水中 蓄水中然後裡面呢 F池看一下你下面看的數字有泰國蝦 有鱸魚2470公斤 472公斤 4717公斤全部都把它列出來了這個是本院去年11月的時候去考察的時候我們所看到經濟部簡報提供出來的數字"},{"start":2443.991,"end":2456.797,"text":"但我那時候看了這個簡報我很狐疑 我非常狐疑我為什麼非常狐疑因為我那個時候台尼加遷漁電共生的那個案場我自己有去過現場"},{"start":2458.171,"end":2486.348,"text":"我自己去過現場我看完了以後當然發現很多問題但我今天跟監察院有關的我只講一件事情我們經濟部的簡報告訴我們去考察的立委都有養魚 有養蝦甚至還有產量連幾公斤都寫出來了可是我後來就覺得很奇怪根本沒有魚魚在哪裡結果我後來發現原來在我們去以前不是在我們去以後"},{"start":2487.307,"end":2509.222,"text":"去年11月去的嘛2024年5月嘉義縣政府就認定F區沒有養殖的事實叫它改善 還沒有改善12月的時候也就是我們考察完了以後它廢止它的許可那我現在問題來了"},{"start":2511.162,"end":2530.463,"text":"經濟部的官員在立法院下去考察的時候針對有沒有養殖的事實這件事情竟然提出虛偽不實的內容來欺騙下去考察的立法委員這件事情算不算你剛剛所講的違法失職監察院要不要辦"},{"start":2534.782,"end":2558.092,"text":"根據剛剛委員所提供的資料如果相關的事證經過調查的程序是有所認定的話是違法施治那沒有關係我今天就公開跟你講你再回去轉給監察院的委員知道因為我講話有憑有據的有白紙黑字有照片不是隨便站在那邊信口開河隨便亂噴"},{"start":2559.773,"end":2567.096,"text":"然後去年我也問過另外一件事情無償提供動產不動產是不是政治獻金無償提供是政治獻金嘛是政治獻金沒有申報要不要開罰依法處理嘛那我們來看我追IMB詐騙的案子我追了非常久"},{"start":2588.227,"end":2609.795,"text":"宛如狗吠火車第一時間我出來講的時候大家都說我胡說八道 我亂講問題是什麼 照片很清楚房子我找到了 車子我也找到了蔡英文從OPPO羅都會員會2020年的禁辦無償提供的"},{"start":2614.488,"end":2618.372,"text":"無償提供者是IMB詐騙主嫌曾耀峰不僅車子是提供的連這個競選連任羅東後援會的禁辦都是無償提供的按照你剛剛的說明這是政治獻金嘛但沒有申報啊沒有申報就違反政治獻金法啊然後"},{"start":2639.946,"end":2661.008,"text":"我去年3月11號問前秘書長呂靜玉 李靜玉說這個IMB案我們現在監察院也正在立案調查當中調查完了嗎調查完畢已經提出調查報告已經提出調查報告確定是監察院的那個部分是調查完了嗎"},{"start":2662.143,"end":2686.762,"text":"監察院的部分 是 我們調查完畢彈劾了哪些官員沒有彈劾 他有提出調查報告沒有彈劾任何官員沒有彈劾糾正了哪些機關糾正警管會IMB的詐騙案耶這麼嚴重的官商勾結耶還跟詐團聯手耶"},{"start":2689.127,"end":2714.074,"text":"政治人物還接受詐欺集團的供養結果沒有彈劾任何機關戴琳秘書長你覺得符合人民的期待嗎我為什麼問你這個問題今年你們要辦追加預算的時候你有來找我嗎說希望監察院可以運作"},{"start":2716.448,"end":2745.196,"text":"有一些事情你們一定會好好做你說你接代理秘書長以後你會好好做我其實那時候承受很大的壓力我把我們要把你們全部刪掉的單子我同意撤回我還記得那天在這邊協商國民黨我們現在在場的傅棍吉總召很生氣清楚的表達國民黨的立場了以後他也對我這樣的決定覺得非常的狐疑"},{"start":2746.395,"end":2774.094,"text":"但我們做事既然要承擔就承擔我給你們機會我們希望你好好做但你們繳出來的成績單要我們怎麼跟人民交代要我們怎麼跟人民交代給了你們的錢有好好做事嗎R&B這麼大的案子政治人物接受詐欺集團的供養"},{"start":2775.792,"end":2794.382,"text":"結果搞了半天沒有彈劾任何人符合社會的期待嗎第二個問題你們那個時候說這個要等到刑事案件偵查結束確定到底這個是非法的政治獻金還是賄賂再來處理"},{"start":2797.042,"end":2824.367,"text":"那現在呢 主嫌之一啦我之所以強調主嫌之一啦是按照我掌握的被供養的不是只有陳歐珀啦但沒關係 主嫌之一我們就先講案件的主角陳歐珀就好了陳歐珀也被起訴啦起訴香港法的部分啊就那個部分他也沒有認定是貪污啊那在這樣子的情況之下非法政治獻金的部分你們什麼時候要處理"},{"start":2827.219,"end":2854.711,"text":"可以委員早安這部分我做一個說明那個IMBA的這個部分我們有跟檢方這邊做聯繫我們也有發文過那麼他們這部分還在偵查中還在偵查是所以監察院的態度是說如果刑事有啟動調查的話監察院這邊就沒辦法動對 我依法我先確定那個部分如果沒有賄賂的問題那就回到我政治現金"},{"start":2855.271,"end":2884.025,"text":"所以偵查多久你們這邊就要等多久我這樣說應該沒錯吧是沒錯在體制上你們很無奈你們必須要這樣子做我們依照現行法律規定怎麼做沒關係我現在是給你機會說明謝謝你看我語氣比較強一點但是你細細咀嚼裡面的字句其實我都要給你機會可以好好的說明你們現在為什麼處於一個停擺的狀態這樣聽得懂吧是OK好上一次"},{"start":2885.166,"end":2901.041,"text":"在針對有關於整個預算停擺的時候大家也關心一件事菅委濫用公務車開什麼玩笑拿公家的錢坐公務車去搞私人的事情"},{"start":2902.359,"end":2925.849,"text":"這件事情你們的副院長說要移送紀律委員會結果後來發現大家說馬上移送紀律委員會我不曉得是笑話一場還是在欺騙社會結果紀律委員會任期7月底到了就沒有然後了8月的時候然後你跟我說新的紀律委員會會重啟調查當初你跟我講的話這個就是那天協商的現場"},{"start":2927.29,"end":2931.923,"text":"記得非常的清楚我公開問你 你說九月份會處理現在處理的進度如何"},{"start":2934.71,"end":2961.343,"text":"我先回答有關於公務車的部分我上次報告的狀況是接下來9月份的部分紀律委員會有書面的質詢也有約詢相關也有調閱相關的資料然後也有請相關的單位做調卷等等的作為然後應該在10月份調查報告的初稿已經出來了"},{"start":2961.903,"end":2972.299,"text":"出來了 沒有啦調查報告出來歸出來嘛就像我剛剛問妳的嘛對 還沒審查對 妳有的時候有調查報告但也沒結果嘛所以10月會有結果是嗎是 這個會期喔這個會期啦 在審預算喔 是"},{"start":2977.647,"end":2995.652,"text":"這個會期在審預算監察院的作為因為我剛剛已經講了嘛你們明年度的立法計畫一片空白嘛我就講一句話就是沒有什麼具體的立法計畫這樣就講完了嘛那大家就看監察院的職責是不是有依法履行嘛這個事情對於我們啦在行使各項職權的時候"},{"start":2997.489,"end":3023.591,"text":"大家都會納入考慮因為我們民意代表在審查預算的時候不是在做私人人情這跟私人都沒有關係不是在做私人人情 站在公的立場監察院的表現如何是不是值得納稅人在花錢讓監察院去做事情這個就是立法院憲法上面的職責要把關的事項他站起來了 你要講話我OK但是他站起來了 現在是他舉手要講話"},{"start":3026.792,"end":3046.344,"text":"所以你讓他講話等一下你不會讓我講話嗎不叫你們不要講話你們就可以講話我想跟黃委員補充報告一下有關IMB的案子他的調查意見裡面有這樣子寫到就是有關於檢方對於公務人員與IMB的主嫌有"},{"start":3046.804,"end":3074.807,"text":"社交往來的情況有立案偵查作為所以我們的調查報告調查意見是函請法務部與前階調查作為結案後你們那個調查報告真的很會寫得蠻文雅說有社交往來的狀況IMP的主嫌曾耀峰在宜蘭的那個招待所我還沒有回來立法院以前在宜蘭的招待所的照片我都貼出來了"},{"start":3076.264,"end":3099.93,"text":"裡面是什麼交通部的官員台鐵的官員曾耀峰坐在裡面剛籌交錯而且還利用立法院排去宜蘭考察的時候考察完一團人帶去他的招待所去招待所談什麼去招待所談啊這個台鐵閒置的土地啊怎麼跟曾耀峰啊這個詐騙集團合作來開發你們有查出來嗎"},{"start":3106.963,"end":3134.351,"text":"還一般社交行為啊一堆官員被帶到曾耀峰的招待所在談台鐵的土地開發開什麼玩笑啊你們偵查院那個調查報告能看喔我說話我負責啊那天去哪些官員跟曾耀峰談什麼在裡面飲酒作樂"},{"start":3136.741,"end":3145.594,"text":"可以這樣搞喔結果交給你們查 查了這幾年查了什麼出來一般社交活動這樣子寫不會覺得丟臉喔"},{"start":3148.473,"end":3174.734,"text":"不好意思 我沒有要繼續說 他要說 所以我要回我要讓召委知道 我很尊重你的議事主持這樣可以嗎好 謝謝這個工坊也很精彩本院委員依法提出質詢監察院裡面也各有所思一來一往 我們也欣賞一下也很好 你也要不卑不亢謝謝 我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":3187.378,"end":3190.192,"text":"麻煩代理秘書長請代理秘書長"},{"start":3194.926,"end":3218.028,"text":"好 代理秘書長早安那我想有一些問題還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西其實延續會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題因為我剛剛聽了他的東西之後我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問就我現在先提一下我想監察院他在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚那我國五權跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣"},{"start":3218.729,"end":3235.949,"text":"那它有非常多的權限其實是本來是在許多國家它是交給立法權在執行我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚那我現在提的一個點就是高雄跟台南最近有很多光電的BR還有一些濫墾的東西我想新聞都非常的多"},{"start":3238.551,"end":3260.609,"text":"政府還有一些特定的人他很喜歡講台灣是小小多山的國家但是我們現在看到的就是我們這個小小多山的一個地方但是山被爛挖那這個溪也被埋了那到處地下線成一個坑山頭也都光電板水庫也都光電板我現在看到的是這些問題"},{"start":3262.23,"end":3285.542,"text":"但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土汙染不是山河破壞失守他們看到的就是顏色 誰執政該什麼樣的人執政他要處理什麼樣執政他不用處理我好像聽說好像現在又開始昨天還今天有人又去貴院去檢舉黃國昌的案子"},{"start":3288.01,"end":3309.587,"text":"監察院的存在到底剩下什麼這是我對於監察院的一個質疑那我先來跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子在陳水扁執政時代2003年那時候那個高雄觀音山濫墾的奸案當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長結果呢"},{"start":3311.528,"end":3329.995,"text":"那個時候的監察院他卻積極的調查而且他後來他還有公開糾正對於縣政府對於國財產局他都公開的糾正而且要求立刻復育立刻拆除違建立刻恢復地貌這是過往的監察院是長這個樣子但是我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣"},{"start":3331.567,"end":3353.601,"text":"我們不用講別的一個恩恩案就好了恩恩案為了打那個為了一個總統選舉然後莫名其妙那個時候監察院跳進去再打恩恩案我那時候在新北市政府擔任法治局局長所以所有的東西包括監察院來調什麼資料全部都要經過我的手我一清二楚那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回覆給黃國昌的說法完全不一致"},{"start":3354.341,"end":3376.987,"text":"你回覆給黃國昌的說法是這個案子司法調查中所以你們就沒有查那二案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的司法調查歸司法調查我監察院歸監察院所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿"},{"start":3378.143,"end":3403.151,"text":"那當時我也提出這個疑問啊我說過往不是司法調查中監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎那監察院給我們的回覆也是公開的回覆說沒有 這兩個是不一樣的東西甚至接下來的日子裡面監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題等一下就跟記者講如此的公開 如此的透明 如此的民主"},{"start":3404.198,"end":3425.98,"text":"但是現在什麼都不一樣現在只要講到跟綠營好像會傷害到他一點全部都不公開全部都我調查中全部都說尊重司法監察院不能如此雙標啦監察院是憲政機關耶所以如果你們這種玩法你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手現在政府很厲害有司法"},{"start":3428.09,"end":3452.148,"text":"當打手 又還有一個監察院當打手滿手的武器在對付在野黨過往 我想提幾個例子過往發生的花蓮的長良林道的水保案件台東的山坡地的濫墾案件還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子其實這些案子都在那裡"},{"start":3454.022,"end":3469.03,"text":"可是我們看到的是對於這些藍營執政的縣市監察院狂打猛殺但是我剛剛提的那些高雄台南的這些光電弊案這些濫墾濫伐我卻沒有看到任何動作"},{"start":3470.317,"end":3499.526,"text":"這個就是嚴重的雙標而且我剛講那幾個案子有一個還在2023年花蓮的長良林道的那個案子還在2023而已這就是嚴重的雙標好 那我來 我跟你們講一下你們今天不能夠說藍營執政的縣市你們雷達就這麼靈敏迅速的處理但是綠營執政的縣市呢就完全沒有聽到好 那我想請教一下那對於這一次高雄還有台南這幾個濫墾濫伐還有這個光電案請問貴院有開始再調查了嗎"},{"start":3501.226,"end":3516.261,"text":"跟委員說明有關於高雄地區那個濫墾就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分呢我們已經有委員在發函了解先收集資料這樣子好 那可不可以像恩恩案一樣"},{"start":3517.842,"end":3536.487,"text":"隨時都對外公開因為檢查只有檢查體系有偵查不公開監察院沒有第二個即便是檢查體系在涉及社會重大公益案件也是偵查不公開的例外是可以公開那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度尤其對於這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件是否可以公開進度"},{"start":3538.188,"end":3563.884,"text":"然後另外一件就是有關於光電板在水庫上面做水面的那部分然後或者是颱風過後以後大概有13片的光電板那我們已經有委員調查但是你沒有回答到我問題啊我說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣隨時隨地的公佈連今天問了公務員什麼問題我被教訓監察院問了什麼問題馬上記者就知道你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人"},{"start":3565.922,"end":3581.312,"text":"委員說明一下因為有監察法第26條其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定那可是監察法26條是有限制調查人員就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外"},{"start":3582.072,"end":3604.587,"text":"所以在恩恩案的時候監察法26條就不見了在現在監察法26條又出來了我在這邊跟各位報告 跟你報告那個案子我就等於是當事人之一嘛所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事啊那當時為什麼就沒有監察法26條呢更何況監察法26條都沒有講到檢調或司法機關那監察法施行細則27條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題所以我在這邊跟"},{"start":3611.331,"end":3628.448,"text":"您說一下監察法26條跟監察法施行細則27條其實都沒有這問題其實你們早就應該要公佈而且很多案子都要去進行調查因為你現在跟我講的東西你做這樣的法律解釋OK 我現在尊重你做這樣的法律解釋但是你現在的做法跟"},{"start":3629.57,"end":3641.412,"text":"過去你們在調查恩恩案的時候的做法完全不一致那我要相信誰我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢所以這個我想我要跟你說明一下另外我再跟你講"},{"start":3643.544,"end":3662.713,"text":"還有幾個問題有四個大坑現在大家都在講美濃天坑第二個坑碼頭山棄置案第三個大樹爛墾光電爛窪案件第四個大平頂保護區變柏油山還有好多案子昨天高雄市政府有出來講澄清這個部分"},{"start":3663.673,"end":3680.299,"text":"對不對那我覺得很好他出來澄清可是監察院是不是也應該要進入調查因為不是只有公務員違法監察院才要出來公務員待遇執行職務監察院也要介入所以不是只有違法會出現監察院而是待遇執行職務的時候監察院也要出來我想我有沒有講錯"},{"start":3682.715,"end":3704.925,"text":"委員說的完全正確就是監察院是代護職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍然後我可以說明一下美濃跟大樹你不用跟我講調查的內容你需要的是公開調查內容我今天在這邊跟你不是就個案的細節去討論而是就你們就通案的制度上面有沒有問題"},{"start":3705.805,"end":3727.704,"text":"所以我今天一直點你的是 恩恩愛你們不停的公佈連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人你們的進度到哪裡那我也跟您說 提外話 我跟你講我現在突然想 我自己小時候我爸媽會逼我背唐詩誦詞"},{"start":3729.245,"end":3748.351,"text":"背了才給我零用錢我為了打電動跟買零食我就會去背那些東西小時候我背我不懂很多東西我都背那個音而已我現在我都突然想到我以前背那個杜甫的那個村望那個村望那一首詩第一句 國破山河在我們現在台灣變什麼國在山河破我們現在國家國還在但是山河破了"},{"start":3754.386,"end":3775.193,"text":"所以我現在能夠深深體會國破山河災痛苦的是皇帝痛苦的是政治人物但是國災山河破痛苦的是百姓我想請問一下政府你為什麼要給我們百姓這麼痛苦你為什麼要這麼傷害我們這些人民所以我現在看到的台灣是國災山河破所以我一定要提出這個東西"},{"start":3778.123,"end":3792.695,"text":"所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個如果你們像你剛剛說的你已經在調查了是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說第二個您剛剛提到的監察法26條及適應細則第27條這兩個東西"},{"start":3797.068,"end":3812.081,"text":"你们回去看一下在恩恩爱爱的时候你们怎么处理的以及刚刚你怎么回应黄国昌的你们可不可以做出一个定论不要恩恩爱爱的时候一个做法今天一个做法法规的解释永远是看自己心情看自己觉得今天该解释成什么样"},{"start":3813.581,"end":3836.52,"text":"尤其是過去你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的券完整的同樣一套交給監察院當初你們是這樣要求的那像當初的這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣這個是我很有意見的一個地方那最後我想請問您一個問題公務員懲戒法第二條監察院"},{"start":3842.767,"end":3867.268,"text":"對政務官我們可不可以移送懲戒可以對不對好這個沒有問題那我想我再請問一個問題如果有公務員不管政務官事務官不依法行政監察院應該要不要介入調查要可以調查好那我再請問一件事情如果今天行政院院長不依法行政貴院有沒有立案調查了"},{"start":3868.888,"end":3885.883,"text":"跟委員說明目前我們沒有這樣子的案件所以我們現在知道一件事情就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算不依法行政但是貴院沒有立案調查我這個結論有沒有錯"},{"start":3887.861,"end":3915.026,"text":"目前沒有錯我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候貴院其實一直講一件事情包括我們在國會改革的時候貴院一直講一件事情說監察院的監察權是不容踐踏必須要存在要監督這個國家但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有謝謝你今天跟我講原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情"},{"start":3915.606,"end":3936.747,"text":"第二 再來 請您記得一件事情我國憲政制度 五院平起平坐監察院不是行政院的小弟請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案今天行政院院長是違憲 違憲 違憲他根本就是違憲 但是貴院卻完全不處理我今天看到是這樣 好"},{"start":3938.777,"end":3947.564,"text":"今天你們不監督行政權明天人民就會監督你們所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在因為我們必須要開始監督監察院好 謝謝好 謝謝吳宗憲委員有夠好康的 貝殼斯你爸爸就給你零用錢我小時候都要去看股 你知道嗎我看股也沒有零用錢來 我們接下來請林倩琪委員詢答"},{"start":3972.182,"end":3978.588,"text":"好 謝謝主席莊昭偉我們請司法院的代理副秘書長請代理秘書長代理秘書長 副秘書長"},{"start":3983.752,"end":4009.587,"text":"委員早安 委員好早安王副秘書長本席今天先針對監察院內部的一個經費的這個部分來做一下跟您的討論所以我這邊要問到的是你們在115年營建工程向下有一個預算編列那麼根據第六款第一項跟第六目的第一節營建工程向下有一個房屋建築及設備費"},{"start":4011.168,"end":4039.019,"text":"今年整個的編列增加了2668萬3千元增幅相當的明顯我再看了一下整個細項的內容其中在國定古蹟區域等相關的維護工程下114年就是今年應該是300萬元但是下一個年度你們卻增加了413萬9千元增加到413萬9千"},{"start":4040.7,"end":4064.601,"text":"那增幅高達了37.97那如果只是單純的例行維護或古蹟保養的一個支出那麼應該是年度的常態性預算那怎麼會有這麼明顯的一個增列那另外這邊我就提醒的你們應該注意的是這個預算不是唯一涉及硬體設施的支出115年你們另外還有編列改善"},{"start":4065.382,"end":4084.313,"text":"或興建消防系統工程3600萬元然後以及中央空調通風機監控等相關系統的改善工程103萬4000元那麼在有其他像重大改善工程以及編列預算的情況下為什麼在"},{"start":4085.033,"end":4107.663,"text":"國定古蹟區域維護還要同步的大幅增加你們有沒有檢視一下裡面有沒有重複編列或預算性質混淆或者是名目重疊的可能性所以針對這點本席請教一下我們代理秘書長 副秘書長你們新的年度這個國定古蹟區域維護工程跟歷年有什麼樣的不同"},{"start":4108.939,"end":4136.802,"text":"那第二個部分你們部分工作是不是跟消防系統改善或者是空調系統改善的範疇交疊那整體改善工程在進行為什麼還要再進行增列的維護經費那麼第三個部分是你們可不可以提供一下你們工程的一個評估報告那你們這個維護的需求評定文件跟歷年維修紀錄給本席來檢視一下針對本席以上所提的這一點好不好"},{"start":4139.206,"end":4141.029,"text":"我分點來說明有關於國定古蹟的專案維護工程應該是413萬9千的這個比嗎對 400多萬的所以它的增幅"},{"start":4155.909,"end":4175.562,"text":"那是因為我們是一級古蹟是個國定古蹟那其實照顧跟維護這個古蹟它通常是要按照相關的一個文資法的一個規定來處理一定是依照文資法的所以本席這邊提出來就是說你們這個增幅相較於去年那這樣子一個例行性的維護這個差別在哪裡"},{"start":4176.942,"end":4202.47,"text":"對 有些細項我來說明一下比如說是它是專案性的要汰換老舊的空調設備因為這就是我的問題因為你們另外還有編的空調還有消防系統的改善等於是你們這邊已經編了但是你們這邊另外我講的那個部分國定古蹟區域的相關維護工程你們也有在增加這個部分是怎麼個有沒有重疊的可能"},{"start":4203.43,"end":4223.917,"text":"是沒有 完全沒有重疊因為監察院呢是有國定古蹟還有同時國定古蹟的區域嘛 範圍區域而已另外還有還有其他的那個辦公區域那不是屬於國定古蹟的範圍所以呢有關於中央空調那部分是屬於國定古蹟以外的中央空調也是要調整其實因為現在的"},{"start":4225.357,"end":4243.78,"text":"對 但是本席這邊所問的是你們今年的300萬然後增加明年到了413萬那這中間在這個國定古蹟的例行性的這個部分你們是增加了什麼樣的項目然後我另外問的是就是說那個消防跟空調系統的這個部分如果是您所講的辦公室的這個區塊"},{"start":4244.821,"end":4272.863,"text":"那這中間的一個差別是在哪裡最重要的就是那個國定古蹟的這個部分你們增幅最主要今年跟過去的例行性你們是增加了什麼樣子的一個項目其實也是因為它的空調是老舊必須要變得等於是你在國定國定古蹟的範圍裡面你們要處理空調嗎還有相關的供電設備跟電源線路還有還是同仁這邊要不要來補充一下簡單的補充一下"},{"start":4274.81,"end":4299.463,"text":"那但是最重要就是說你們可能整個工程的評估今年為什麼要這樣做那那個跟歷年來的維修紀錄也是要給本席檢視那你現在先簡單的說明一下好不好我先簡單的跟委員報告一下剛委員所講的古蹟的一個修繕從200變300那這個部分對就114年是200115年是300那這個部分呢它是屬於預案你們115年到413萬吧"},{"start":4304.676,"end":4322.141,"text":"那是不是你們把相關的資料是不是檢視完然後好好的再說明一下吧國定古蹟區域它是屬於專案它不是約案執行那專案的部分國定古蹟區監察院有新大樓跟國定古蹟區那明年的413萬其實我是針對國定古蹟區西翼二樓的空調老舊空調去做一個一級的節能減碳的一個汰換"},{"start":4331.104,"end":4351.115,"text":"那其實監察院這幾年都逐步在針對國定古蹟區的一個空調做分區的一個汰換那未來會汰換到新大樓所以這聽起來是例行性的所以專案它是專案不是例行是專案例行性的吧你每一年針對這個專案有去做一些處理嗎只有這幾年是這個專案然後這個空調汰換老舊空調汰換結束以後就不會有這個屬於這個專案了所以我們是把它"},{"start":4358.539,"end":4372.788,"text":"好的 本席這邊的問題就是你的增幅蠻高的所以你是不是針對這個汰換今年跟去年的一個比較然後來跟本席做一下說明那最重要你是不是相關的資料先給本席可以那之後我再確認一下這個部分好不好好"},{"start":4373.969,"end":4397.366,"text":"接下來本席要提到一件事情是跟監察院之前有一個報告是原住民族的司法權益去年8月王美玉監委有一個調查報告針對全國地檢署原住民的特約同意與別跟人數還有實際需求的嚴重失衡有列出一個報告裡面提到"},{"start":4398.647,"end":4412.969,"text":"原住民的族語有16族語和42種方言但是目前檢察署特約同意只有7種語別但是上個禮拜本席問了法務部長他說現在有8種但是基本上還是有一大半都還是沒有語別"},{"start":4413.95,"end":4427.978,"text":"沒有辦法用母語或者是如果檢查體系沒有辦法了解母語陳述後面的邏輯那整會剝奪整個他們受公平審判的一個基本權益所以本席也跟法務部這邊提出了補強的一個質詢"},{"start":4430.899,"end":4454.586,"text":"但是基本上整個語別還是非常的確如所以這個全面檢討制度跟通盤補足語別與人力的配置的整個進展還是遠遠不足所以本席要請教您監察院是不是有持續追蹤這個調查的後續情況那麼有沒有要求行政院法務部具體的提交改善期程跟執行的成果"},{"start":4455.266,"end":4475.424,"text":"本席在這邊強調依據原住民族基本法第30條的明文規定我們國家是有義務來提供足夠的族語通譯不能由執行的人員來自行判斷免除所以在司改國是會議的決議也已經要求來建立完整的原住民族司法通譯的這個制度"},{"start":4476.565,"end":4493.533,"text":"今天早上的質詢我聽到幾位委員其實是針對雖然你們有一些報告但是在後面的一個執行上在過去你們會彈劾但是後面的一個追蹤這是本席現在關心的一個重點所以這個部分是不是鳳鳴林這邊有沒有一個什麼看法"},{"start":4494.093,"end":4509.255,"text":"就是跟委員說明我們提出有關於那個同意的部分其實不管是第六屆還是第五屆都有相關的調查案這是有關於司法正義上面非常重要的制度那這個做法就是現在你們針對各單位目前做法的一個進度"},{"start":4509.676,"end":4533.872,"text":"了解 那有關於這次的調查報告在去年提出來那王文宇委員會持續根據他的調查意見會持續追蹤 會監督我們也還沒有結案會等到得到訪問部有完整的回答我們同意了以後才會做結案的動作現在目前還沒有改善完成"},{"start":4534.432,"end":4538.294,"text":"好的 那是不是可以請你們在你既然還沒有結案那是不是在這個進度的追趕上能夠去督促每一個單位請他們還是有實際的一個期程那當然本席知道中間可能還是會有一些困難"},{"start":4549.598,"end":4573.101,"text":"基本上為了一個司法的公平我們知道族人常常在一些表達上還有司法人員訓練對於語言邏輯上的一個理解其實還必須要更為多元 更為寬廣所以在國事會議裡面的決議也應該要求了完整的原住民族司法的通譯制度你們的國家人權機構也應該好好的來落實人權的保障"},{"start":4574.262,"end":4596.31,"text":"最重要不是只有停在那個專案報告後面的做法是非常重要所以最後本席這邊提醒司法正義一定要從當事人能夠以自己的魔慾及他的邏輯能夠被充分的理解那司法體系的理解語言的邏輯文化應該要更為普遍也就是說對司法人員的這個"},{"start":4598.431,"end":4617.223,"text":"對於語言文化的這個理解可能要有更進一步更寬廣跟更深度的一個訓練那請司法院務必追這樣一個進度好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琦委員我們接下來請王宏威委員宣導"},{"start":4628.171,"end":4631.545,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我請一下副秘書長請副秘書長"},{"start":4637.39,"end":4660.056,"text":"副秘書長好今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫我必須說因為其他相關的部會有相關的立法計畫其實都蠻充實的你們的立法就感覺非常單薄但是相關的有一些我待會兒來跟你就教"},{"start":4660.916,"end":4683.142,"text":"有一件事情因為非常重要就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害也就是馬太安菸塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情也造成嚴重的傷亡到目前為止整個的救災過程仍然在持續中而這個事件"},{"start":4684.622,"end":4695.113,"text":"到目前為止我相信沒有人會把它單純定位為是天災而已你認為是單純的天災嗎有沒有人禍"},{"start":4698.49,"end":4722.82,"text":"跟委員說明有關於這個晏賽湖溢流的部分呢這個災情監察院有立案所以現在監察院您剛說所以你們定位為不是單純的天災而是應該有人模不章的問題對不對現在有委員在調查那請問一下你們什麼時候立案調查"},{"start":4724.327,"end":4743.225,"text":"我們依照院裡面的公文的日期是今年的10月2號10月2號調查現在這個調查是由監察委員主動來申請調查的嗎是的是哪幾位委員"},{"start":4745.469,"end":4765.166,"text":"抱歉委員因為委員沒有授權幕僚行政幕僚可以對外說明照理講過去很多的案件監察委員會主動申請調查這個都不是秘密是可以公開的"},{"start":4766.756,"end":4790.903,"text":"說明一下我們這樣好不好我給你一點時間好不好請你幕僚單位趕快因為既然已經10月2號已經立案調查那我們當然要外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查這個不是秘密所以可不可以就是至少在我們整個的今天的會議結束之前能夠告訴我們委員會"},{"start":4792.883,"end":4814.895,"text":"跟委員說明我知道是哪幾位委員調查可是因為要依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明我只能說明說這個案件監察院在10月2號已經立案調查有委員在調查中我是公務員我還是要依法為之 謝謝所以我還說我給你們時間因為過去很多委員"},{"start":4819.598,"end":4842.532,"text":"自己都公開說我要主動申請調查這件事情過去太多案件了這也不是第一次所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下盡量能夠在我們今天會議結束之前來通知我們委員會為什麼在這邊當然現在監察院已經有立案調查但是為什麼我們也想了解是哪些委員"},{"start":4843.693,"end":4854.236,"text":"因為剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到因為我們現在覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院太過配合行政院我們希望能夠在這次重大事件裡面監察院有沒有機會有沒有機會能夠有肩膀的能夠真正的去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任然後他們的疏失是什麼"},{"start":4869.7,"end":4877.063,"text":"做出合理的處置才能夠引招公信才能夠去跟所有的災民來做交代因為在這個案件裡面其實我們根據相關的法令很多法令其實定位得非常的清楚包含整個的菸塞愛湖馬太安溪的上中下游它是由包含分別為農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位來主管"},{"start":4898.47,"end":4919.204,"text":"那包含菸塞湖的處置監測也是由農業部還有疏散因為這一次呢在行政院的部分就責於地方政府的部分就是在於說疏散疏散有瑕疵但是疏散的相關的權責應該是什麼"},{"start":4922.927,"end":4936.462,"text":"應該要獲得釐清所以今天監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院還有地方縣市政府之外你們應該是公道博但是老實說"},{"start":4938.325,"end":4963.632,"text":"我也很擔心啦 根據過去的監察院的記錄你有沒有發現 過去很長一段時間像這樣的書是照理講 很多包含立法委員也好 很多民意代表也好縣市政府也好 第一時間一定向監察院先去澄清 對不對要求監察院趕快立案調查 啊這次沒有啊"},{"start":4964.677,"end":4991.044,"text":"為什麼沒有因為對監察院不報信心了那我本來想說趁著今天我還是對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心我認為監察院應該要介入做調查所以你可以看到最近以來其實監察院前面我想已經沒有什麼人過去去做去做陳情了對不對"},{"start":4993.121,"end":5019.002,"text":"說明我們今年的所說的陳情案七萬七千多件跟歷年或第五屆相較並沒有減少而且還微幅增加有微幅增加是不是但是要求你們比如說來自於立法院民意代表或縣市政府縣市議會去要求你們針對針對行政院的部分這樣的案子其實真的大幅減少了"},{"start":5019.602,"end":5023.345,"text":"我的意思就是說希望監察院能在這個事件裡面能夠發揮你們的角色因為這裡面太多其實依法很多就是從馬太安溪、菸塞湖、蘇散的路線以及收容所的整備還有包含你撤離的警報單這是最近大家熱議到底誰是主管這個撤離的警報單"},{"start":5047.944,"end":5059.65,"text":"這個過去其實都有全責的劃分包含撤離警報單是包含是內政部 農業部 經濟部跟地方政府共同決議但是主管是誰 這點非常重要10月2號立案調查我覺得這個確實有人禍的問題而不是單純的一個天災問題"},{"start":5072.737,"end":5099.283,"text":"另外剛才我又就叫我們監察院副秘書長你們現在有修法計畫其中有政治獻金的是政治獻金法這一塊可是看起來按照你們這個時程最早最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法的修正在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日韓宋行政院審查"},{"start":5100.043,"end":5105.609,"text":"到了今年的10月2號再召開第11次的審查會議我想請問副秘書長在我們這次大罷免裡面其實選罷法也好或者政治獻金法也好我們出現太多的疏漏"},{"start":5117.663,"end":5131.462,"text":"太多法沒有去明確定義而造成太多的在灰色地帶其中就是有關於政治獻金這一塊那尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象我們覺得最"},{"start":5134.085,"end":5140.149,"text":"最不平衡的地方就是我們遵守政治獻金法因為在大罷免罷免是都不能夠去接受政治獻金因為我們是被罷免而且我們是立法委員我們必須守法不知道幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們我們的罷團 各個罷團"},{"start":5160.1,"end":5173.803,"text":"整個的有關於政治獻金募款亂象重生裡面有自己 像我自己的罷團裡面在群組裡面直接的在做募款那還有其他的罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了"},{"start":5181.045,"end":5198.408,"text":"就質疑說這個募款之前的領銜人或之前的主導人募款募款到哪裡去了然後自己內部就吵起來了在大罷免過程這就證明他們確實有募款好 那更不要說在基隆市長謝國良罷免案裡面後來出現爭議罷免團體透過募資平台去募款到現在資金流向不明"},{"start":5207.31,"end":5227.538,"text":"好 所以這麼多的亂象政治先進法本來就應該修正有疏漏所以我請問副秘書長在這次政治先進法的修正裡面這是你們極為極為極為少數的要修法的你們內容很少請問你們要怎麼修"},{"start":5230.086,"end":5255.649,"text":"就是剛剛委員所了解的就是其實行政院在修法的過程中監察院都有積極的參與因為我們是完全執行政治先進法的機關我們雖然不是法的主管機關可是完全都是由監察院來執行所以我們的建議就是在這次修法要對於政治活動第二條政治活動的定義必須非常的明確有沒有包括罷免的部分"},{"start":5256.289,"end":5277.371,"text":"你們的意見是什麼 包包和罷免呢我們是認為應該要包括罷免當然應該包含罷免 選舉罷免 選舉罷免是 那跟委員說明如果包括罷免 它是有一整套法系必須要修正那如何開專戶 那誰能夠收現金的部分政治現金的部分都是一套的法都要 鳳鳴署長 因為呢"},{"start":5279.653,"end":5289.507,"text":"這個因為選舉我們台灣這個民主社會已經選舉大家經驗非常多而且那個政治先進法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹很嚴謹但是這次罷免法我剛講亂象重生"},{"start":5294.553,"end":5310.877,"text":"也都罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道來自於哪裡也都不知道雖然比如說包含我們行政單位或者我們民進黨立法院同仁一天到晚在講國安法有沒有什麼反滲透法有沒有什麼境外勢力你這邊根本連法都沒有"},{"start":5317.028,"end":5332.231,"text":"那罷免 發動罷免 他的錢從哪裡來都不知道 而且你們根本不要管不願意管所以你們的現在的修法的方向是把罷免"},{"start":5334.181,"end":5350.335,"text":"等同選舉一樣 在政治先進法裡面是不是把罷免等同選舉它就選舉 我們選舉的活動它的相關的政治先進的規定應該完全適用在罷免上面這是不是你們的意見"},{"start":5354.517,"end":5382.432,"text":"不然的話實在是太亂了雖然很多人說這次大罷免可能絕對是空前有人說可能絕後了啦不會再有這種這麼胡搞亂搞的這樣的一個政治活動但是很難說喔很難說喔哪天誰曉得這個民進黨又覺得哪一個他輸不起又想發動大罷免的時候又重新來過也未必不可能發生"},{"start":5383.132,"end":5400.305,"text":"所以為了我覺得因為我們是通過大罷免即便什麼我們說我們拿到無敵信心但是我覺得制度一定要建立那請問一下你所了解這個有關政治獻金法你們的修法期程在什麼時候可以送到立法院來"},{"start":5403.762,"end":5429.215,"text":"這個可能還是要尊重這個按照行政院的流程那目前你什麼都尊重行政院我覺得好奇怪你好像行政院監察部是不是還是行政院監察署委員我不懂我們剛才就在講說你監察院跟行政院是你應該從基於你的職責你認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治陷阱的漏洞"},{"start":5429.935,"end":5451.932,"text":"然後你要求先你們有你們意見然後要求行政院趕快做修法宅隊尊重尊重行政院是你長官嗎我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見而且非常的嚴謹那也都參與那因為這個法的主管機關是內政部他還是依照法制的程序就是你剛剛講你是執行機關我是執行機關對不對你說搞不好"},{"start":5452.792,"end":5468.648,"text":"搞不好明年再來一個大罷免你要怎麼執行然後大家都質疑你 不是嗎所以請你趕快也回去就這個政治獻金法你們是平行單位要求行政院儘速提出送到立法院來審查好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":5470.427,"end":5485.527,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員其實王委員這個詢問其實是很有道理的但是應該是他只問到一面現在是你罷免發動罷免的領銜人跟被罷免的人其實都要一併去談"},{"start":5486.828,"end":5510.66,"text":"確實是這樣你說是亂象我也認為是一個現在整個法制不足的地方不然我也聽到一大堆被罷免的人到處去募款那現在這個也都沒有法律的一個規範那確實是法制讓他把它補起來這對監察院來講或者說對執法還有對我們本院來講的話送到本院來做一個審查這個也是"},{"start":5511.42,"end":5516.403,"text":"很有必要的一件事情 接下來請省發會委員來做詢問阿川你待會不能走你要代理一下主席 我們請蜂蜜請代理秘書長"},{"start":5539.732,"end":5550.697,"text":"我想這個就延續剛才王宏威委員的質詢在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的適函為什麼你們修法你們什麼時候要提修法"},{"start":5552.028,"end":5576.478,"text":"但其實這個觀念這個我想剛才我們副秘書長一直在台上一直要解釋但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋因為這個修法雖然你們是執行機關但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關修法都是要由主管機關提出來對不對那這個我們的這個這個政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位"},{"start":5577.962,"end":5606.125,"text":"內政部是內政部不是你們監察院嗎不是當然當然啦我們監察院是這個是這個執行的核心機關但是但是主管這部法的主管機關就是內政部所以如果要修法就是應該有內政部提出來所以內政部他送行政院院會這個就是這個程序我們不管有多強烈的意見不管我們認為說什麼時候現在就應該要修現在派就說現在就應該修但最後依照法制還是你們不能監察院自己送一個"},{"start":5606.986,"end":5631.918,"text":"政治獻金法修正案進來 不行啊主管機關不是你們 對不對先把這個部分說清楚所以就不要說這個因為自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣拿來這裡找監察院來出氣我覺得也是不對我們今天是針對我們監察院的這個相關的立法計畫來進行"},{"start":5634.679,"end":5653.348,"text":"這個專案的會議那這個我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分一個是監察法一個是陽光事法大概你們所提出來立法計畫就是這個那所以我今天大概先就也是一樣針對這陽光事法的修法的幾個部分來跟來就教副民主黨"},{"start":5654.708,"end":5677.941,"text":"剛剛有講到陽光市法公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法主管機關是法務部另外兩部政治獻金法跟遊說法的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院"},{"start":5679.702,"end":5705.461,"text":"對不對 是嘛那這個但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論包括王國文委員所大家在這邊這樣討論其實他就暴露出這個制度上面的一個重要的缺陷就是你們不是主管機關但是卻是執行機關核心的執行機關那這樣子讓你們這個承擔這些制度的回饋政策建議的這些責任"},{"start":5707.032,"end":5719.399,"text":"這些跟主管機關就分離了責任跟主管機關分離之後這樣子的制度切線我們有沒有什麼樣的方式"},{"start":5720.782,"end":5745.865,"text":"能夠建立一個針對這樣子的你們核心執行的這些相關的法令能夠有一個回饋的執行上面的回饋機制讓主管機關你們固定的或者什麼樣的執行的回饋的機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面你們認為法令上面應該要做修改應該要做補強了有沒有這樣子的機制有沒有想要想辦法來建立這樣的機制"},{"start":5747.281,"end":5775.826,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為我們是最主要的執行機關所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有摯愛的地方那我們都會主動的就跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來那通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見那一定的時間會證比如說像財申法其實監察院有很多的意見法務部也都接受然後提出正式的修法"},{"start":5776.606,"end":5801.237,"text":"我想這樣子的我還是希望說能夠有一個回饋的機制一個常態性的回饋機制讓這個才不會讓這個法治主管跟執行去脫節那我看你們這個有關陽光事法的部分你們提了修法這個相關立法計畫包括政治獻金法包括遊說法就是這兩個"},{"start":5804.301,"end":5827.762,"text":"但是有關公職人員財產申報的部分申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是沒有認為應該要修法的地方因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治先進法就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請出你們是不是沒有立法計畫目前沒有針對它有修改的"},{"start":5830.1,"end":5848.227,"text":"報告委員 法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分監察院沒有提供意見我們都有提供意見那你在這個書面報告上面有提到沒有提到公職員財產申報法監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法"},{"start":5848.667,"end":5861.774,"text":"那我現在就公職員財產申報法的部分來提出一個我個人認為說現在必須在修法上面是不是能夠來補強的就是有關於公職員財產申報法第二條第一項這個第五款"},{"start":5864.295,"end":5888.486,"text":"代表政府或公股出任司法人之董事及監察人他必須要申報財產但是在公法人的部分公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法的第二條第一項第七款有納入公法人有納入利益迴避但是沒有納入財產申報這個在制度上面有焊隔的地方"},{"start":5889.526,"end":5911.705,"text":"公法人他長期接受政府的補助運用公帑來執行公務他這個具有公權力延伸的性質還有這種公共責任我個人認為說是不是應該我們這個公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報的範圍這部分是不是請我們先請監察院這邊表示意見"},{"start":5912.506,"end":5938.162,"text":"是 报告委员有关于行政法人法因为出来以后那财政申报法没有跟着修正但这部分我们也觉得非常必要所以我们13年的时候我们也有建议那么目前在这个财政申报法修法正在一个法务部也已经开过两次会那这个我们都有把它建议进去有把这部分纳入公法人部分纳入因为法务部廉政署他在102年初在12年前出了一个解释就直接解释说"},{"start":5938.962,"end":5965.083,"text":"公法人的這些總監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面對不對那這個經過12年這時也引起社會上蠻多的質疑跟批評那這個部分我希望說我們在公主院財產申報法的這個相關的修正我們監察院應該要表示這方面的意見這是第一個部分那第二個部分有關於財產申報的部分按照這個財產申報法的第11條這個"},{"start":5967.785,"end":5988.643,"text":"各受理財產的申報機關應該要進行個案以及一定比例的查核個案是一種 一定比例是一種按照個案查核 按照比例查核這兩種查核這個11條也授權你們制定了一個辦法你們制定了一個公職員財產申報的資料審核及查閱辦法這個查閱辦法裡面的第7條"},{"start":5991.165,"end":6010.817,"text":"這個第七條的第二項你們提到就是說這個所謂比例的查核是每年申報總人數的5%對不對這個是你們按照抽選辦法定的所以所謂比例就是5%嘛而且是所有抽查總申報人數的5%"},{"start":6012.762,"end":6018.294,"text":"那這部分我是覺得應該要這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整因為這個"},{"start":6021.228,"end":6044.943,"text":"這個你們按照這樣子的比例5%的比例來進行這個比例抽查那個案的部分你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查對不對有個案檢舉你們有隨機抽隨機抽的部分應該算在比例裡面吧所謂個案就是有個案檢舉的部分才是個案的對不對現在現行是不是這樣個案的部分是指說"},{"start":6046.584,"end":6064.863,"text":"檢舉或者是法務部他定期會把涉灘的案件的起訴書給我們那這部分我們也會去看他的內容然後做一些個案查核那這個我個人認為欠缺的一個部分就是說有關於這種你們用這種固定的比例跟這個靜態比類方式"},{"start":6066.485,"end":6090.235,"text":"所以很多公主人他可能會透過信託、境外帳戶、虛擬通貨這些新型態的這種方式來進行財產的隱匿那這些部分你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的包括法務部移送包括個案檢舉你們才做個案的調查我個人認為說這樣子是不夠啦因為事實上你們應該要建立一個機制有一些職務他是高風險的"},{"start":6091.531,"end":6120.473,"text":"他是有關有這個高風險職務譬如說負責採購啦還是這些補助的審查的這些政治現金的核銷啦政黨資金運用這種都是屬於高風險的你們應該在這部分能夠提高比例啦而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查我認為說這樣子會會很不確實很不確實所以常常出問題了之後才發現說你們根本就可能他已經擔任公職20年30年但是從來沒有被抽查過"},{"start":6121.741,"end":6145.538,"text":"所以這個部分是不是我們能夠能夠跟這個法務部共同來研商一個風險的分級的查核機制我認為建立這個是必要的那另外還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分是有關於這個政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範沒有規範那這個沒有規範這個"},{"start":6150.276,"end":6166.955,"text":"其實這個公子園財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入要申報了但是這次現金法沒有這次現金法沒有的狀況你譬如說在直播平台的donate這些線上的贊助或者是這個"},{"start":6170.012,"end":6192.171,"text":"這個相關的這種規避規避這個隱匿透過網路平台來規避或隱匿這個捐款來源的這種狀況在現在變得非常普遍尤其是直播平台的donate這種現在都不在我們政治獻金法的規範裡面但是在公職員財產申報裡面要報政治獻金法卻又不規範這樣子的法制民主黨認為沒有問題嗎副民主黨"},{"start":6196.029,"end":6206.994,"text":"我們在我們給行政院的修法意見已經把斗內跟虛擬貨幣等等的的意見已經已經提給行政院政治獻金法的部分嗎這個這個有提出來這部分還是應該要"},{"start":6212.096,"end":6241.469,"text":"我個人認為這個部分是等於是法治的漏洞這部分也就是說我們監察院認為這種數位的募資應該要那包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治監禁法對不對好這個部分請是不是你們這個有關於這個直播的平台Donate線上贊助虛擬通貨甚至這些NFT數位資產這些東西你們相關的這些法律見解跟這個監管的立場是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會好不好再拜託你們"},{"start":6241.989,"end":6250.396,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝沈發威委員 接下來請王逸川委員詢答好 謝謝召委 我們請代理秘書長請代理秘書長好"},{"start":6272.236,"end":6295.046,"text":"你也不是監察委員所以問你個案也沒什麼一啦我們一些制度上的問題就你的了解或者是看法第一個就是說我們公職人員在做財產申報的時候現在大部分用自然人憑證那第一次申報第一次申報的時候"},{"start":6297.214,"end":6323.919,"text":"監察院有沒有什麼方法可以防止第一次申報的時候他漏報了就他不是故意的就是他就漏報因為第二次以後他就抓去年的是要抓上一次的就可以了第一次的就第一次要申報了因為很多的政務官是第一次當政務官那他申報他也搞不清楚有沒有什麼機制我舉個例子譬如說像我們現在報稅"},{"start":6326.211,"end":6337.865,"text":"報稅我們就是輸入相關的這個什麼身分證之類的然後他就告訴我說我去年領了多少什麼所得然後他就幫我算完"},{"start":6338.567,"end":6364.197,"text":"他就問我說你要標準扣除我 列舉扣除我 這樣啪啪啪 就跑出一個數字那個是國家告訴我那我認為國家告訴我的好 那我就付錢嘛大概是這樣可是我們在做財產申報的時候第一次財產申報怎麼讓這些新進的要報的人不會你到最後收到一個通知說你漏報了一個東西因為你們會提出漏報代表你們手上有答案"},{"start":6366.533,"end":6386.865,"text":"說明一下 就是我們申報財產現在可以財產借接以前只有定期財產申報可以借接現在已經開放到所謂的第一次申報就是公職人員的就到職申報也可以財產借接前一段時間因為監察院的預算被完全刪除"},{"start":6387.325,"end":6415.654,"text":"所以我們就停了一段時間從3月到9月都停了那9月以後又因為爭取到追加預算所以我們從9月開始恢復那從9月到12月會有三次的財產借接的基準日所以可以方便所有的公職人員他的就到的申報也可以用借接的方式透過借接的方式可以比較正確的瞭解參考"},{"start":6416.694,"end":6441.29,"text":"相關的財產身份證好 那他借接完了他也沒改就送出去了那你們會不會說他有漏報就是如果他被查核的話不是 那他是借接的他是國家告訴他說他有這些財產嘛那他怎麼辦呢各位說明有些財產是沒有辦法借接的我說可以借接的"},{"start":6442.008,"end":6468.77,"text":"可以接接的話 如果說我們因為會去裁罰他一定是認定他有故意申報不實不管是直接故意 間接故意對啦 你認識他故意嘛 對 我們會考量因為公務員啊 政務官第一次如果接到監察院通知他說你漏報了一筆什麼 他會很緊張啦因為他很有可能因為他第一次擋碼 第一次申報然後呢 他也沒有故意啊他是國家告訴他說 他有這個財產 然後呢"},{"start":6471.468,"end":6476.813,"text":"沒跟他講說他有另外那個財產然後結果你就說他漏報了這個要怎麼避免"},{"start":6479.467,"end":6508.646,"text":"我就刚刚跟委员这样子说明就是说如果是使用院里面的借阶的方式得到的财产资料那参考相关的资料以后来申报除非是不能借阶的财产那那个比如说像市人债务比如说现金啊什么租宝啊对不对对像这些那如果是我们借阶的资料原则上我们会去审慎的考虑然后会尽量不要去认定它是故意的"},{"start":6508.846,"end":6523.179,"text":"OK因為這個有些人第一次收到會很緊張說當公務員然後接到監察院寄信給他他當然緊張第二個沒有申報的政治獻金是不是政治獻金沒有申報的政治獻金是不是政治獻金先要去界定是不是政治獻金那個當事人說是"},{"start":6536.242,"end":6563.155,"text":"才去說他應該要如何就當事人說是但是他沒有申報不會因為當事人的好那我就簡單舉一個例子比如說我當了一個政務官那我兩個月以後要退了假設我當了兩個月以後這個我就不能當政務官也許是這個任期到好那就有善心人士"},{"start":6564.329,"end":6568.331,"text":"就說 你做什麼長就做到不錯 體育這麼年輕還要大展長才啊 還要創辦公室啊 要裝潢啊不然這三百萬放去裝潢啊那時候也沒有選舉期間嘛 沒有選舉的都沒有啊他收這三百萬 收起來 還在工科機關的辦公室收起來 收起來"},{"start":6592.589,"end":6603.143,"text":"對監察院來說 他收這張紙是什麼概念監察院 你不要講到司法就是說這個監察院關你們什麼事有沒有 跟你們有關"},{"start":6604.522,"end":6632.751,"text":"委員那個第一個能夠收政治獻金是有一定的條件跟身份的那只有擬參選人是可以收政治獻金那如果說一般的政務官不是他不是擬參選人然後不是在選舉期間沒有開專戶他是不能夠收受政治獻金依法不能收受那如果收受那我請問這個動作是不是給政治獻金這個要看個案的判斷"},{"start":6633.547,"end":6637.489,"text":"好 要看個案的判斷那當事人講政治獻金也沒有用不會受到拘束就是在監察院的認知裡頭非選舉期間在監察院的認知裡頭非選舉期間也不是你參選人在你們的認定那個都跟政治獻金就無關了收受政治獻金不可以收受政治獻金那你們會不會認定他是政治獻金"},{"start":6663.886,"end":6678.718,"text":"抱歉委員我們還是要個案才能夠判斷所以有可能要個案要個案好那接下來就是我們這一個所謂的政治獻金有沒有規範到各政黨的黨內初選那個政黨因為可以長期的收政治獻金如果設了專戶以後就可以長期不是我是說政黨內部"},{"start":6693.5,"end":6709.573,"text":"內部 如果說是你參選人我們現在只能用期間給他所以如果他的初選期間在比較早不是在可以收政治獻金的期間他就不可以收政治獻金那我收政治獻金來黨內初選可以嗎是不可以的不可以不可以 對就我為了黨內初選我來開個專戶喔我也在你們認定的範圍內喔這樣範圍內當然可以"},{"start":6721.549,"end":6745.927,"text":"我可以在範圍內開一個政治獻金專戶然後我拿那個錢去參加黨內初選可以如果說今天他是在我們政治獻金可開立專戶的期間那他的這個收的他就可以設專戶收政治獻金跟支出這個都不會違法OK好那我再請教一個問題是監察院可以彈劾立法院的院長嗎那可以彈劾行政院的院長嗎"},{"start":6752.694,"end":6776.097,"text":"可以彈劾司法院的院長嗎可以就是立法院不可以是 對 他是民意代表那就是中央及地方的民意代表都不是監察院行使職權的對象不可以提案彈劾立法院院長不可以彈劾立法院院長行政院 司法院 考試院都可以那可以彈劾監察院院長嗎"},{"start":6777.383,"end":6801.49,"text":"可以 他也是只要是政務官就是我們職權行使的對象只要有違法行使就是只有立法院院長立法院跟各級地方政府的地方議會中央地方的民意代表都不是監察院的職權行使對象好 那立法院的國會助理立法院的國會助理歸不歸你們管"},{"start":6803.211,"end":6830.482,"text":"他除了說我說陽光示法的部分也沒有都不歸監察院管都不歸監察院管他不是中央或地方的公務員OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝王一川委員好 接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":6834.572,"end":6836.674,"text":"謝謝 有請我們代理秘書長好 請代理秘書長代理秘書長好我想幾個議題要來請教就是說整個國家人權的行動的一個計畫裡面其實是對我們整個監察院來講的話也是重要的一個課題那我在看到你們在10月3號"},{"start":6857.072,"end":6880.869,"text":"監察院去發布了新聞稿說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及到強迫勞動事情有沒有善盡監管跟嚴厲因應對策監察委員 王委員 賴委員他們也去申請自動調查那我看這一陣子都是聚焦在於整個人權計畫裡面聚焦在整個外籍義工的部分遠洋漁業那其實呢"},{"start":6883.376,"end":6888.26,"text":"不管是歐盟也好或者說我們監察院整個人權的一個計畫也好那這個對於整個勞動的人權確實是一個值得去關注的一個重要的議題但這個過程裡面其實以本席來看的話"},{"start":6902.273,"end":6903.934,"text":"我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎連這個人權團體我就沒有一點名了有時候到我辦公室來來拜訪我的時候我當名我都給扶上去你知道嗎因為每一個人關注面不同這個"},{"start":6918.302,"end":6922.185,"text":"勞動人權這個確實值得我們繼續去追求讓它更進步但是在這個過程裡面其實對於產業那種打擊那種打擊也要特別去謹慎以我在看元陽醫院來講我看幾個組織來找我的時候我當面跟他講我說你們每次都去講說這個傳統去虐待這些外籍勞工講這個住的環境也不好然後他反問我說難道不是真的嗎"},{"start":6947.702,"end":6965.088,"text":"我說對一半但其他對於這些漁民來講的話他們那種憤怒你們都不知道第一個你像譬如說我要去抓魚了我不管是要到南太平洋或者說我要到大西洋去抓魚或者說我要到摩尼西斯去抓魚你去把它看我要到這個漁場之前我這個船我從東港開始開我要開到漁場要開20天這20天裡面"},{"start":6973.257,"end":6975.283,"text":"我跟王瑜孫我們兩個都是漁工我們兩個就是在那裏擲轎 擲噴囊 喝燒酒這幾十天還沒有到漁場"},{"start":6981.195,"end":7002.413,"text":"睡覺就是這樣子而已那到了漁場以後呢拚了好傳統就跟我們說拚下去我們有獎金嘛看下去就一直抓啊所以我們當初在審一例一休的時候本席都一直持反對態度我說要謹慎要謹慎每一個產業是不同的那在這個過程裡面你像比如說到了漁場以後啊那個都是一定是玉石工作啦橋櫃洗乾啊"},{"start":7005.476,"end":7020.466,"text":"勞工也很喜歡 你知道嗎 抓了有獎金然後前面這20天 我們都是在那裡休息而已很正常嘛 產業就是如此嘛那後來你會發現 喔 這個人權團體就提出抨擊了你看這個漁船裡面 讓這個外籍漁工住得那麼差傳統人都跟你講說 我這漁船耶 我這不是郵輪耶我這是要去抓魚的耶你那個廁所是不是很糟糕我祖母 你就按照政府的規定就是只能這麼大 你叫我怎麼辦"},{"start":7035.37,"end":7058.914,"text":"你叫我怎麼辦所以我的意思就是說追求人權的一個進步保障勞工這好但是這個過程裡面其實也不要去傷及無辜這個過程裡面其實互相拉扯到最後達成進步是非常好的一件事情但是本席為什麼特別提到今天真的你們新聞稿拿出來講就是說美國的海關跟他們的邊境保護局就CPP"},{"start":7059.494,"end":7072.307,"text":"在9月24號對我國的自行車龍頭巨大 就吉安特 大家都知道的就變成對我們這個戰扣令就是暫停輸美的一個不能讓它出口那這對我們台灣製造來講的話首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣這個"},{"start":7080.535,"end":7098.662,"text":"不是只有國家形象的問題還涉及到整個對企業的一個影響那美方這一次的一個指控裡面說這個強迫勞動指標就講到有濫用弱勢惡劣工作條件還有債務扣押還有扣薪跟超時的一個加班這個對我國的產業人群治理確實是一個"},{"start":7099.724,"end":7113.58,"text":"警訊但是企業他本身也非常負責任的他說他在9月29號就透過美國律師跟CPP去溝通然後10月下旬也將到赴美去申訴我就去了解了經濟部跟勞動部"},{"start":7115.63,"end":7137.442,"text":"經濟部 到勞動部 到我們外交部就整個國家政府就動起來了都開玩笑 我這企業龍頭我省省的東西 什麼你只敢說我違反勞權議題然後你全部都罵我出口所以呢 他們就我們經濟部 勞動部 外交部也開始在協助他們並拜訪監察院然後呢 聘請國際獨立查核機構來展開這樣的一個評估"},{"start":7141.084,"end":7155.742,"text":"他公司內部其實也去從2025年1月開始去實施的零招聘費被他指控的部分人家一一去把它做一個更完善所以本席要提出來就是說"},{"start":7156.483,"end":7172.306,"text":"監察案去做這樣的調查不是壞事但問題是我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是你經濟部或者勞動部我們國內的勞權的勞動的法規到底跟先進國家尤其跟歐盟"},{"start":7173.291,"end":7179.255,"text":"你這個政府機關你到底有沒有去給他更明確的一個指引這樣才對啊你覺得他現在要調查的不是針對三件事三件事現在美國把我們禁了之後你現在又去啟動調查你會讓我們國內的一個企業會認為說我就在說啊你政府又來給我補我一刀我要講的是人權絕對不能馬虎但是我們國內的企業我們不能倒啊"},{"start":7201.96,"end":7209.501,"text":"現在他給我們禁了之後你覺得他這個時候會讓業界會覺得心都涼掉一半我不曉得戴移民主黨的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":7210.556,"end":7234.914,"text":"剛剛委員報告現在有關於這件事件監察院有調查那人權委員會有發聲明那監察院調查的部分就是委員的重點我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂的經濟部或者是勞動部的部分這才是監察院的職權範圍所以"},{"start":7237.896,"end":7242.603,"text":"至於說調查後的一個結論是如何尊重我們會尊重我的意思就是說當國內企業遭到"},{"start":7247.121,"end":7254.623,"text":"美國這麼大的國家在禁運的時候我們要特別去小心你像譬如說他這次不是只有針對台灣美國政府對我們來說當然是美國對我們是很重要的一個國家但是這個政府你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事你知道嗎他也一直要求說你這個大企業你全部到我們現在多少台灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠"},{"start":7273.069,"end":7301.685,"text":"你不從 我告訴你他有他很多的法寶本案要特別小心我就不做 因為調查當中我就不做任何的一個影射啦那但是呢 就是說我們監察院其實你說沒有功能嗎他可以有很多功能啊我是很想做幹部員我都沒有辦法有雙重身份啊不然來講的話你像譬如說我們都可以幫企業把這個整個政府部門該做的指引這樣的一個制度漏洞我們把它補起來啊"},{"start":7303.713,"end":7328.675,"text":"我如果嚇到我會覺得說你中華民國政府你對我的勞動的條件規定是這樣子啊你怎麼可以因為說歐盟或者說美國你說我沒錢給你了我還要去用禁運我就遵守法律啊那這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想我們自己的法規我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣的一個潮流那這個也是監察院可以好好去補補漏洞的一個地方啊那所以呢"},{"start":7330.296,"end":7340.683,"text":"人權把它顧好是絕對是一個好事台灣製造這個在國際上我們面子當然也要爭可是問題是我們監察院該幫幫我們這個企業來補漏洞到最後如果葉子是背黑鍋的話那才慘所以本席一直認為說你像我們2020年這個推出的商業跟人權國家行動計畫裡面監察院是國家人權委員會是重要的一個支柱"},{"start":7357.515,"end":7362.056,"text":"那你們看7月份 你看你們國家人權行動計畫裡面你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理裡面其實你們都沒有談你們幾乎都沒有談所以我到本席到認為這個跨部會的人權風險的預警的一個機制防止企業被國際的誤判我講說誤判"},{"start":7385.944,"end":7394.971,"text":"這個其實我們特別要小心如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的一個內功我覺得這很重要的不是事後在那邊算賬事前如果有辦法把這個機制讓它做一個提醒來透過這樣的一個調查幫企業來站穩這樣的一個腳跟才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權的一個條件"},{"start":7411.244,"end":7435.087,"text":"跟國際上來接軌更可以強化競爭力誰說監察院不能做監察院也可以做你簡單回應一下好不好我們會參考剛剛委員的意見然後本來就是我們針對一定是針對政府機關有沒有違法實質你像歐美的法規我們如果說政府我們制定出來跟別人有所落差的話剛才你買了公威"},{"start":7435.808,"end":7461.859,"text":"你說你職長你各個部會裡面你們做得不好啊你們法規裡面企業質疑沒有弄好啊讓我們自己的企業連這樣的一個龍頭都會受到別人的一個制裁啊這個看起來我是覺得我們連政府部門我都覺得如果當我們的企業在那邊為他的生存然後再奮戰的時候林建才我最怕的時候你們再去給人家補刀啊"},{"start":7463.066,"end":7463.85,"text":"祕書長 簡單回應這不是開玩笑 我告訴你"},{"start":7467.383,"end":7493.824,"text":"就是如果說法規上面是有缺漏的部分這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍這本來就是法制上面應該要提出意見那有關於國家人權委員會的部分在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面我們也提出了相關的操作指南的意見請它儘速的更新然後能夠跟相關的國際的公約能夠相契合"},{"start":7494.424,"end":7514.935,"text":"這個是我們人權委員會也有提出其實本席的重點就只有一個人權的治理其實它也可以轉化成變成我們國家跟企業的競爭力這要特別小心這夾這裡 夾我看了你的新聞稿的時候我特別去說連這麼優秀的然後這樣的一個治理在我們國內算是"},{"start":7516.796,"end":7543.439,"text":"已經上軌道的會被制裁禁止出口這是多大的事情所以監裁院就做調查的時候很多啊 檯面下的好好去瞭解啦我經常跟人家說企業在美國在做申訴的時候這樣不好啦但是啊 這段期間美國所有所有的一個動作裡面我們要非常小心啦美國有他的國家利益他為了讓他很多廠商到他的國家去設廠"},{"start":7545.601,"end":7553.426,"text":"他那個撇步很多的 你知道嗎這件事要特別注意好不好我很怕我們就變成一個補刀 傷及到無辜好 謝謝好 謝謝莊惠雄委員謝謝黃毅昌委員接下來我們請翁小玲召委來好 今天穿得特別漂亮 來"},{"start":7574.076,"end":7580.442,"text":"好 謝謝主席那麼在這邊先有請王副秘書長請副秘書長王副秘書長 早安我要呼應剛剛我們莊昭偉所說的那席話這個監察院他現在監察委員"},{"start":7594.153,"end":7621.773,"text":"不是只有監察委員的這個角色還扮演了國家人權委員會委員的角色所以更是應該要重視人權那麼勞動人權其實也是我們國家這個向來應該要非常重視的一環那麼各個行政機關到底有沒有做好其實監察院應該國家人權委員會應該要負更多的責任然後去了解 去查清楚"},{"start":7622.443,"end":7650.36,"text":"好那麼在這邊呢我接下來呢我是想要就監察院的這個職責的部分來就叫就叫王富敏我們知道其實監察院在我們的憲法底下權力分立的之下作為我們這個五院之一對於行政院以及各部會的工作都有調查是否違法或失職的權利並且可以行使"},{"start":7651.079,"end":7671.301,"text":"糾正彈劾糾舉權但是呢在最近這一年多來我們看到行政院及各部會其實有蠻多很明顯公然違法不依法行政的情況譬如說像是該編的預算沒有編行政院從去年開始對於這個"},{"start":7673.53,"end":7702.474,"text":"要編原住民計法補償條例的預算沒有編那麼到今年像是軍人志願役加緊警消人員退休金的預算等等該編也是沒有編那麼又自己擅自扣減地方性的補助款至於最後來有好幾件發生自然天然災害那麼我想請教就是監察委員現在有沒有人是有主動申請調查這些案子"},{"start":7704.004,"end":7714.825,"text":"跟委員說明目前沒有這樣子的案件也沒有澄清也沒有檢舉所以沒有澄清沒有檢舉那麼因此監察委員就可以消極的"},{"start":7716.55,"end":7743.662,"text":"依職權去調查嗎這是非常明顯的不依法行政我想如果監察委員他夠關心時事夠了解現在行政院立法院的互動以及社會上面對於行政院公然違法的這樣的一個聲音的話那麼是不是應該要主動的立案調查或是也要自請調查所以到目前為止監察院沒有任何動作"},{"start":7745.578,"end":7759.973,"text":"目前我們沒有收到澄清跟檢舉不過是有關於那個進法補償的部分有調查案可是不是委員說的這個這個不便利預算的部分不是這個部分 對"},{"start":7761.054,"end":7779.128,"text":"那有關於軍警的部分其實監察院也有其他的調查案是有沒錯他們的待遇還有員額等等都有相關的調查案可是就是沒有依法編列加薪的部分是沒有那一般政府補助款"},{"start":7780.729,"end":7808.769,"text":"總之就是現在監察院沒有任何動作也沒有任何的監察委員自行自請調查那麼我要講就是說大家其實對於監察院的功能不彰已經是非常感冒尤其看到監察委員們在這些年來的表現幾乎就是只打蒼蠅不打老虎重要的大的弊案或是說行政越是高層的行政官員或行政機關違法監察院都不出手"},{"start":7809.309,"end":7829.754,"text":"然後也不去積極做調查其實大家看到這樣的一個狀況是非常的寒心也認為說監察院是每每遇到重大的爭議案件就歸縮不前或是輕輕的放過這樣的做法基本上就是自毀聲譽那當然秘書長因為你不是監察委員了你沒有辦法去做這樣但是我希望你能夠把今天"},{"start":7830.274,"end":7840.563,"text":"本席的意見然後轉達給監察委員們知道這些事情非常的重要然後乃至於像是這次的花蓮光復香的顏色湖的潰壩事件我覺得監察院都應該要趕快的積極主動立案來調查好"},{"start":7847.672,"end":7867.96,"text":"這個部分是有嗎好那其他的這個行政院違法失職的這些案子都目前為止都沒有那我也希望他們能夠趕快立案調查好那麼除了就是剛剛講的對於行政機關的違法失職的作為監察院應該要積極的去調查之外還有就是我們剛剛說的監察委員他同時也是國家人權委員會的委員"},{"start":7869.878,"end":7877.685,"text":"那麼對於人權的案件應該要特別的重視請問目前這一兩年有多少的人權調查案件麻煩請暫停一下時間關於人權的調查案有四案"},{"start":7895.615,"end":7912.746,"text":"有四案 只有四案對 然後它有專案另外的專案有八案好有13件專案OK 我想請問我想請問我們複密的就是大家知道這兩年來其實這個陸委會對於這個陸配是這個極盡百般刁難那麼對於陸配人權的問題國家人權委員會這邊有沒有"},{"start":7924.81,"end":7944.315,"text":"立案調查有沒有去了解這個事情大家知道其實陸委會它現在所做的這些措施基本上它是違反法律保留原則的而且還將這個本來根本不應該適用這個後來在民國就是後來這個修法的相關的規定然後又溯及既往的讓"},{"start":7945.175,"end":7951.537,"text":"很多的這個陸配幾十萬的陸配然後重新回去去申請什麼放棄大陸戶籍證明等等那麼還有就是驅逐陸配出境這些其實都是很嚴重會已經侵害到陸配人權的問題然後影響到他們的家庭權親子權那麼對於這部分我們國家人權委員會都沒有"},{"start":7965.482,"end":7986.503,"text":"調查嗎就是跟委員說明有關於陸配的相關的權益的部分是已經納入兩公約的獨立評估意見裡面有說明那獨立評估意見在下半年會對外公佈然後這是第一點那第二點是有關於監察權的部分"},{"start":7987.583,"end":8002.073,"text":"陸配的這樣子的一個權益的照顧的部分我們內政及族群委員會已經有決議通過了就是把我們去巡查的時候會去特別關注這個議題"},{"start":8003.374,"end":8028.406,"text":"所以這就是大家就在講就是國家人權委員會到底設了有什麼功能國家人權委員會目前每年編列預算是1.1億到1.2億之間那麼你們判理的基本上都是看起來無關緊要真正的對於台灣的人權迫害或有侵害的事情你們卻沒有積極的處理這讓大家覺得說我們國家人權委員會設置到底有"},{"start":8029.799,"end":8046.012,"text":"對於台灣的人權保障提升有所注意嗎並沒有從勞動權利然後剛剛講的那些新著名的權利人權然後已經產生了這麼大的爭議監察院仍然是袖手旁觀國家人權委員會的委員們袖手旁觀這讓人家很難"},{"start":8051.823,"end":8061.536,"text":"很難會認為我們是否有成立國家人權委員會的這個必要或者是說我們要投入更多的資源去支持國家人權委員會所以在這邊呢本席也要提醒請這個王富密回去轉告人權委員會的委員們"},{"start":8068.025,"end":8095.585,"text":"這些事件都要趕快處理要積極地去調查 去了解到底行政機關在處理這些事情的時候是不是有違反比例原則違反法律保留原則我們畢竟還是個依法行政的國家人權保障是非常重要的一件事情對 政治是政治但是我們回歸到法律的層面來還是必須要依法行政而且要注意到人權保障這個才是非常重要的事情好 那接下來第三個問題很快問"},{"start":8097.987,"end":8117.308,"text":"我們知道這個陳菊院長從去年12月請假以來將近快要一年的時間那當然本席在這邊也希望她能夠早日康復不過事實上就是因為陳菊院長的健康的狀況然後始終沒有辦法就復職那也造成就是監察院現在一直處於就是無"},{"start":8117.808,"end":8133.471,"text":"院長的狀態就是由副院長來帶領院長這也會影響到整個監察院的運作那麼在這邊情況在這樣的一個情形之下當然本席是認為為了考慮到監察院的運作還有也同時要顧好這個陳院長的健康"},{"start":8134.452,"end":8149.261,"text":"如果他能夠自行請辭那當然是最好但是以現在狀況來講的話他一直沒有動作那外界一直認為說他是不是在這段時間裡面還是有領薪水那當然監察院有發了新聞稿說陳院長基本上是沒有領薪水"},{"start":8150.578,"end":8174.511,"text":"拋棄薪資那我這邊我就想進步的問一下問幾個問題第一個就是監察委員他本身就是廣義的政務人員他本身應該是不適用於公務人員請假規則那麼甚至連這個所謂拋棄薪資的部分他是不是是他現在的拋棄薪資的狀況是依照公務人員的這個就是當時全區部的函式裡面的做法拋棄薪資嗎"},{"start":8178.084,"end":8198.445,"text":"第一個是有關院長的任命是總統的職權然後依照監察院的組織法第六條那如果院長因故不能逝世的時候是由副院長來代理那監察院的職權不管是憲政職權法定職權都非常正常而且謹慎的在運作中"},{"start":8199.225,"end":8215.581,"text":"至於說院長請假的部分是依據公務員請假規則第3條第1項的規定來辦理至於政務人員的部分是準用的至於說委員所提到有關於信奉的部分因為不管依照"},{"start":8216.522,"end":8239.871,"text":"法務部或者詮釋部的函事有關於公務員的薪奉的部分是屬於公務員對國家的公法上的請求權那不管在法律法理或者實務上面他都是可以全部或者是部分來拋棄不用講這麼法律上面的條件我都曉得那接下來我就請問到底現在陳局院長他拋棄了什麼他的本奉拋棄了嗎他的月奉他每個月的薪水拋棄"},{"start":8247.839,"end":8272.828,"text":"是不是拋棄了 然後他的特殊費沒有特殊費黃院長沒有特殊費不是 我們今年的特殊費是全部都刪除好 那就是他的月奉有拋棄然後呢 其他的健保還有工保 還有院長的薪奉薪奉是有拋棄這樣 自願繳回這樣自願繳回 全數都繳回"},{"start":8277.699,"end":8299.031,"text":"這個如果是細項的部分是不是全數都繳回嗎還是有部分項目是沒有繳的嗎是沒有拋棄的對不起是沒有拋棄的我院長的新縫是有拋棄的所以新縫是全數包含各式各樣的加擠福利是不是那所以他現在的公保跟健保是誰負擔沒有人負擔嗎這位人員也有公保跟健保"},{"start":8309.133,"end":8329.552,"text":"這個部分的話我希望監察院要提供給我一個清楚的報告因為我想國人是有權利知道到底現在院長說他自己自動拋棄薪水那麼這些薪水的範圍是什麼當然現在政務人員應該是沒有所謂的這個休假的獎金這些應該是沒有嘛他就是主要就是由他的"},{"start":8332.135,"end":8347.265,"text":"鳳擠就是月鳳還加上他的什麼專業家擠或是植物家擠這些來組成那這總之希望我請秘書長這裡要提供一個下禮拜就提供給我一份就是陳菊院長他拋棄新鳳的範圍"},{"start":8350.148,"end":8365.425,"text":"的說明最後一個題目因為今天時間有限我還是要說明一下我們會依法依法提供資料依法因為還是有相關的法規的限制它一定是一個個人資料是 謝謝委員"},{"start":8366.195,"end":8395.675,"text":"竟然陳菊院長都說他拋棄薪資拋棄薪資的範圍我覺得這是全民應該有權利可以知道的事情他到底薪資的組成就政務人員的薪資的組成這不是秘密是不是這不是秘密嘛對不對但是你監察院提出來的資料這個就是一個公開是可驗證的一個訊息所以如果他是拋棄的是政務人員他現在當院長領了三四十萬的薪水全部的薪水的這個資訊這倒為什麼不能公開這並不是秘密啊"},{"start":8396.875,"end":8420.929,"text":"否則的話讓大家對於陳菊院長的話沒有信任覺得說她拋棄結果可能事實上根本沒有拋棄或只拋棄一小部分最後我要講的就是監察院的立法計畫監察院對於立法委員們所提出我這次看到你們監察院提出的立法計畫裡面似乎完全沒有follow立法委員們所提出的相關的立法或修法建議"},{"start":8422.413,"end":8442.5,"text":"監察院是對於立法委員所提出的修法案是無動於衷嗎包含好對不起最後一分鐘包含本席所提出的監察委員行為法以及許曉欣和文宏偉委員他們提出的監察院的組織法修法現在監察院的立場是什麼樣是完全都不想要提出相關的修法嗎"},{"start":8444.592,"end":8458.605,"text":"這個有關於法案的提案權是當然是立法委員的權限的憲政權限那這個三個剛剛委員所提到的三個法規沒有包含在監察院今年的立法計畫裡面是在去年也沒有"},{"start":8459.225,"end":8482.339,"text":"以前兩三個會期 四個會期都沒有所以本期要在這邊提醒就說是監察院的立法計劃應該也要關注立法委員們所提出的相關法案而不是很消極的然後提了一些基本上根本你們我開始鋪出來你們這年的立法計劃有要提出什麼項目所以這也會讓人家認為說監察院基本上真的功能不彰好 以上謝謝"},{"start":8483.62,"end":8487.764,"text":"謝謝 接下來 謝謝複密署長接下來有請吳思瑤委員質詢 謝謝複密喝口水吧 辛苦了好 所以要請複密嗎好 那有請複密 謝謝"},{"start":8508.763,"end":8524.089,"text":"好大家辛苦實在覺得蠻遺憾的我認為從政的人要有同理心更要有人性那不要以小人之心度君子之腹對於陳菊院長他是生病的關係"},{"start":8525.834,"end":8547.391,"text":"他目前沒有辦法來工作我們都對於任何懷有病痛的人 應當要有相當高的同理而陳菊院長 她也主動自動地繳回退回她所有的信奉那有委員又要查這個 又要查那個然後又說 會不會只是說的啊 沒有真的退"},{"start":8548.737,"end":8574.518,"text":"我真的覺得消費別人的病痛然後小人之心度君子之腹更是欠缺同理跟人性我表達遺憾也實在要對立法委員這樣的表現我覺得還是深感sorry對於我們陳菊院長這樣子讓我們崇敬的一個前輩有這樣的質疑那今天我的主題天災無情人禍可防"},{"start":8575.563,"end":8594.915,"text":"不分顏色該查就查我今天說的兩件事情我都是同樣的態度一個就是馬太安溪艷澀湖的救災責任一個就是現在政壇大家都關切的受害者比比皆是的狗仔偷拍政治針防的集團有不法就要查下一頁"},{"start":8596.331,"end":8616.784,"text":"首先呢剛剛好多在野黨的委員在質詢看來他們對於監察院的功能是很肯定的才會要你們這個也要查那個也要查這個法也要立那個法也要修那如果對於監察委員要求你們要有老虎的功能那麼為什麼不給武器不給預算呢"},{"start":8618.086,"end":8634.596,"text":"今年總預算你們是所有的願計之間的重災戶形同癱瘓雖然我們最後在追加減預算7762萬免為通過但是太多的業務已經受到罕格下一頁"},{"start":8635.683,"end":8652.959,"text":"我這裡整理出來的 我們這一年來的中央機關的巡查監察案從33案調到剩10案 降了70%而地方機關的巡查因為要到各縣市 沒有公務車 沒有油錢所以29案變成1案 降了95%"},{"start":8658.965,"end":8677.613,"text":"而監委的另外一個重要的功能調查案件也從去年260案今年目前只有134案等於是減了一半所以說巡查的次數也減調查案件的件數也減衝擊了調查的量能前所未有"},{"start":8678.513,"end":8698.822,"text":"如果在野黨的委員認為對於監察院的功能是有這麼多的期許要你們這個要查那個要查那麼就不要不合理的來亂砍預算所以負面我這些資料的整理是不是因為總預算嚴重的影響了你們的調查巡查的量能我的數字是否正確"},{"start":8701.467,"end":8728.399,"text":"謝謝委員的整理因為我們的相關的今年度的預算被刪了百分之快97所以像中央巡查我們除了剛剛委員說的公務車的郵費以外還有國內旅費其實也都沒有零 也都沒有然後地方機關的巡查也是相同的我們就沒有辦法去各地去受理人民陳情其實是"},{"start":8728.999,"end":8747.247,"text":"对各地来讲是影响非常大尤其是离岛偏乡的部分那调查案的部分呢更是影响重大因为没有任何的咨询费旅刊或者是我听说还很多监委为了自己要让调查的量能维持还是自掏腰包来进行对不对"},{"start":8748.815,"end":8768.116,"text":"事實上是有這樣子的情況好我希望在野黨的委員記取今天在這裡質詢每個人丟了一堆案要你們查查到底要當老虎拜託那今年就不要再砍玉算了下一頁我非常遺憾喔這個傅坤祺的政治垂直避難"},{"start":8769.574,"end":8797.71,"text":"就是甩鍋中央又卸責鄉鎮公所我們學法律我們定法的人災害防救法是921之後國家開始立法在921之前因為沒有一套災害防救的法制所以當時的總統李登輝前總統是用緊急命令的方式那時候吳斯堯就是立法院的國會助理所以我們催生了災害防救法訂定了三級制"},{"start":8798.61,"end":8826.345,"text":"中央縣市政府跟鄉鎮市公所所以災害防救法的三級制各有權責都要合作只是我很遺憾為了甩鍋為了政治的垂直避難的傅坤祺曲解法令至此到底是笨到連法律要前文對後文一起看他都不知道還是壞到惡意的去斷章取義"},{"start":8827.606,"end":8847.117,"text":"所以災害防救法我就不贅述了三級制中央有責任有權責縣市有責任有權責鄉鎮同樣也有但是要具體執行跟有效分工法就在那裡不要要甩鍋的時候來曲解法令甚至"},{"start":8848.278,"end":8867.185,"text":"災害防救法已經修了很多次每一次的天災都讓我們記取教訓99年的時候再一次修法就是因為莫拉克風災的經驗讓我們立法院認為要強化災害防救法的修法去強化什麼地方政府的災救責任"},{"start":8868.43,"end":8881.674,"text":"所以要把法律嚴格跟條文前後文讀清楚不要為了甩鍋卸責政治的垂直避難來曲解法令我很遺憾在野黨現在都說這個調查災情就是要去究責藍營的人是錯了"},{"start":8889.857,"end":8908.108,"text":"監察院在災救的各項調查是不分黨派嘛對不對過去到現在有很多針對災防執行有沒有到位公務團隊有沒有堵直都進行了調查下一頁這是我整理出來的"},{"start":8909.188,"end":8928.422,"text":"纳利台风91年台北市政府的马英九总统因为台北市的防洪设施很完善但是却没有具体的去执行应变失当而且需要向中央求援当时的马英九没有所以你们调查了依法是纠正提案纠正"},{"start":8931.222,"end":8958.472,"text":"99年的莫拉克颱風是高雄市長陳菊針對高雄市當時的土石流警戒沒有具體有效的去撤離所以造成災難你們也是該查就查該辦就辦該糾正就糾正從那裡到莫拉克颱風每一次監察委員的調查都是讓我們國家的災防體制可以更精進有檢討"},{"start":8960.032,"end":8978.819,"text":"所以馬英九陳菊不同黨派該查就查對不對下一頁更細的到鄉鎮市公所98年在這個高雄縣甲仙鄉的劉鄉長也是你們在小林村的災情上彈劾了這一個鄉長"},{"start":8981.161,"end":8985.684,"text":"在98年台東縣縣長鄺麗珍因為鳳凰颱風來襲縣長卻出國未歸引起輿論的爭議你們提起彈劾但我要強調這個彈劾是針對他那一趟的出國本身的一些計畫執行跟出國的項目不符所以被彈劾"},{"start":9002.697,"end":9022.463,"text":"所以說針對每一次的救災疏失不是為了半藍半綠啊是為了讓國家的災防體系更健全三級制能夠落實所以在這一次的花蓮的馬太安溪的不幸事件我認為你們未來啟動的調查一樣不分顏色"},{"start":9023.584,"end":9042.701,"text":"中央如果有疏失我們要精進地方政府執行不到位我們該給予提醒鄉鎮市公所更是如此我不希望只要監察院在查這些部分的政治工作者就戴上了有色眼鏡"},{"start":9044.204,"end":9071.426,"text":"只能够办律的不能够去查其他政党的这我刚刚整理出来对于防灾的调查是不是也是你们过去具体执行的成果好那第二个下一个主题政治圈发生了史上最大的丑闻跟间偷拍进行政治侦访下一页你们也是受灾户"},{"start":9072.597,"end":9100.691,"text":"下一頁我問兩個問題簡單問李鴻鈞副院長說啟動了公務車使用的行政調查進行中嘛對不對那還在進行中是嗎目前還在調查中調查報告還在審議好我尊重你們的調查希望未來有更好的制度大家可以依循第二個對於這個不法的偷拍狗仔的這個政治針防很多受害者是監委你知道這些監委基於捍衛自己的權益有人要提告嗎"},{"start":9101.943,"end":9117.424,"text":"目前沒有這樣子的資訊好 我也尊重但是我認為每一個受害者的權益都至關重大該提告就提告因為才能夠透過司法的釐清查查當中的不法行徑最後下一個"},{"start":9118.725,"end":9138.657,"text":"民進黨團我們的書記長陳培餘在這裡喔昨天跟鍾嘉斌幹事長民進黨團到監察院去舉發了這個狗仔偷拍集團是不是有違及他的資金是違反政治獻金法政治獻金的查核就是監察院的例行業務嘛也不分顏色嘛 對不對"},{"start":9139.818,"end":9156.677,"text":"黃國昌委員不曉得是不是怕被查就先來扣帽子貼標籤說國家機器動起來了監察院就是國家機器要鬥爭政敵我要說從來沒有國家機器但是被驗證只有國昌機器"},{"start":9157.898,"end":9186.321,"text":"沒有國家機器但是有偷拍別人的國昌機器同樣我希望你們既然舉發受理該查就查不分顏色甚至政治獻金我手上有厚厚一疊你們辦理罰還處分就是你們的業務不分黨派都有我手上這一疊有林佳龍有新黨有柯文哲有蔡黃狼"},{"start":9188.055,"end":9209.428,"text":"有蘇政卿啊藍綠都有還有一個人叫做吳思瑤我也被罰過因為我的助理在書在辦的時候有一些書師然後一樣你們每一筆都查得很細那我被查了我們如果有登載不夠完整的我們就依法規該被罰就被罰包括我當事者"},{"start":9210.288,"end":9225.407,"text":"所以我從來不會戴著有色眼鏡該查就查監察院不是國家機器的去打擊政敵的這種監察院是為了整治關真是為了廉潔的政府"},{"start":9225.988,"end":9245.551,"text":"所以兩個部分一個救災一個在政治獻金的查核基於你們的權限範圍該怎麼辦就怎麼辦那我也期待今年的總預算不要再被為難了你們當時拿到了7000多萬的追加預算欠給廠商的錢都付了吧"},{"start":9246.909,"end":9252.236,"text":"希望今年不要再發生好不好監察院要當老虎請這些委員都要給武器都要給預算謝謝辛苦了謝謝主席"},{"start":9268.247,"end":9281.483,"text":"好 謝謝吳思瑤委員那我們先做會議程序的預告稍後在程培宇委員詢答完畢以後休息五分鐘那我們接下來請程培宇委員詢答"},{"start":9286.206,"end":9312.215,"text":"好 那副秘書長喝水了嗎好 謝謝 那有請陳委員好好 今天早上我聽了幾個委員的質詢我想要提一下我個人的觀感我剛才聽到歐小玲委員在問這個關於院長請假的部分一直以來我知道你們都做了非常多的說明但是我在這裡要公開譴責相關委員的發言我認為這是沒有人性道的極致"},{"start":9313.175,"end":9335.137,"text":"在成為一個政治人物之前我們每一個都是一個很重要的有獨立思考的個體我們必須要先是一個人才可以是一個政治工作者但很可惜的是我們看到非常多在野黨的委員屢次用院長現在的狀況攻擊監察院甚至做出很多不實的指控我想監察院這邊應該要更具體的"},{"start":9336.198,"end":9363.552,"text":"硬起來把你們的態度把對於人的關懷說清楚說明白而不是一再成為在野黨委員消費的工具這個部分可不可以請你們簡單回應一下就是謝謝委員提及那有關於本院院長的請假的那個部分的確是 當然是因為身體的關係不得已請假那可是"},{"start":9364.292,"end":9386.179,"text":"院長請假完全依照法律的規定在處理完全沒有任何的調整折扣而且相關的程序我們也都有呈報到總統那邊這個是第一點第二點是院長自己主動願意拋棄他的薪俸這一點是院長主動的也沒有任何的"},{"start":9387.279,"end":9412.353,"text":"院裡面也沒有任何的要求也不是外界要求是院長主動那這點應該要完全與尊重那我們也曾經發新聞稿說明過所以呢其他的部分至於說細項的部分有很多的部分一定是屬於個人資料的部分就依法就是不得公開的那也不方便再做進一步的剖清那我可以說的是"},{"start":9413.354,"end":9437.083,"text":"的確是主動繳回而且是他的信奉就是主動繳回好 謝謝您的說明我認為我也要呼籲所有在野黨委員請就此停住不要再做人身攻擊不要忘了自己也是一個人也不要忘了你家中可能也有親戚朋友長輩可能也正在醫院也正需要醫療的照顧我想這件事情非常非常的重要"},{"start":9437.483,"end":9466.883,"text":"接下来我想跟你谈一谈关于花莲县政府有非常多荒谬的行为除了刚刚CL委员说的眼色胡的事情之外我想跟你讨论几个案子来第一个我们办公室上个礼拜才陪同被禅光育幼院开除的前院长开了一个记者会因为禅光育幼院其实在监察院的报告里面我们也看出花莲县政府在身为禅光育幼院的地方主管机关到底做错了哪些事情来第一个我们来看一下"},{"start":9467.623,"end":9489.155,"text":"你們給了非常非常多的建議看到監察院的報告裡面說花蓮縣政府沒有在第一時間認定禪光育幼院有所謂的不當對待甚至有非常多起的不當對待是在這個院長到任之前其實禪光育幼院長期就有這個現象而花蓮縣政府長期忽視這個事情非常的嚴重還有相關的通報也非常的消極"},{"start":9492.637,"end":9504.961,"text":"甚至在院裡面發生所謂性平事件也沒有按照流程來處理還有禪光育幼院裡面的工作人員專業資能不足 評鑑成績不佳但縣政府沒有積極的協助沒有積極的督導還有縣政府也沒有依照兒少權法修法調整裁罰基準甚至我們發現禪光的董事會組成還違反了財團法人法"},{"start":9519.165,"end":9538.118,"text":"這個是監察院身為非常重要的監督機關所給予花蓮縣政府的提醒跟糾正我們再往下看花蓮縣政府荒謬不是只有這一件在前一陣子有議員踢爆說花蓮耗資千億蓋餐具清洗中心結果可笑的是"},{"start":9539.239,"end":9558.154,"text":"縣政府設定的要去用這個餐具清洗中心是所謂東大門夜市的業者現場超過1000攤但是業者說從來沒有人問過我們清洗中心要怎麼用要怎麼收費才合理所以目前其實並沒有業者開始使用這個所謂的餐具清洗中心甚至呢"},{"start":9560.195,"end":9587.205,"text":"之前清洗中心的硬體設施已經進入驗收階段卻被爆料出來說在興建之前根本也沒有進行先期評估而到目前為止也沒有業者敢去承包委外經營的業務勢必這一棟館耗資千億的餐具清洗中心會再成為花蓮縣的文子館加一這件事情也非常的荒謬再往下看"},{"start":9588.929,"end":9610.428,"text":"顏色湖的事件我們看到有非常多的委員也在質詢我非常認同司藥委員剛剛所說的不管是中央還是地方政府有責任該查我們就查該負責就要負責在非常多悲傷的案例當中我們看到另外一個比較正向的花蓮縣政府沒有好好指揮但是大馬村村長王村長"},{"start":9611.989,"end":9624.477,"text":"他的女兒本身也是我們台灣的足球國手女足國手我們看到這個困境而當時呢到目前為止我們看到更荒謬的現象我們往下看昨天有一個相關的新聞喔"},{"start":9626.348,"end":9648.222,"text":"在地方跟中央當地的救災團隊大家為了快速溝通很多事情所以組成了一個所謂對話群組結果呢在昨天其實是前一天的晚上發生了一個荒謬的事情由花蓮縣民政局帶頭退出這個對話群組然後呢已讀不回"},{"start":9649.042,"end":9662.353,"text":"甚至還說以後有任何行政指導請以正式公文或會議傳達講到目前為止我講了非常多花蓮縣政府荒謬的狀況我們再往下看"},{"start":9666.44,"end":9673.17,"text":"0206有很大一筆錢當年捐進花蓮縣政府在2018年的時候而這筆善款呢當時湧入了28億我再次強調28億而這筆善款呢"},{"start":9681.421,"end":9708.611,"text":"當時他的管理機關是花蓮縣政府因為他們成立了一個花蓮縣重大災害民間震災捐款專戶管理委員會而這個委員會的主管機關就是花蓮縣政府這是不是一種求援兼裁判結果被有心的網友認真的盤點了相關他們所謂公佈他們認為自己有透明他們有公開的相關善款明細我們看到一年花光10億"},{"start":9710.331,"end":9735.542,"text":"甚至有非常多的這些錢的去處是去支應花蓮縣當地的公共基礎建設根本沒有用在所謂受災災民身上但是不要忘記當時台灣人熱情湧入這個28億的捐款是為了直接幫助災民但卻變成縣政府的小金庫拿去做所謂公共基礎建設這是合理的嗎"},{"start":9736.877,"end":9763.353,"text":"再來下一個甚至我們之前就有看到有非常多的網友有分享一個照片他說他當時就是有捐款給花蓮縣政府甚至還收到一個荒謬的光碟這個光碟裡面滿滿的是花蓮縣政府當時的縣長他們自己的豐功偉業的一個照片紀錄光碟紀錄跟副秘書長報告我自己的好多朋友也有收到我自己也有收到我當年也有捐款"},{"start":9764.625,"end":9781.855,"text":"我覺得非常非常的荒謬到目前為止當然你們有就這個案子有糾正過還有限制性招標的問題啦地震專輯啦光碟壓制動用不同預算科目還有甚至辦所謂感恩參會還有就是用一千多萬辦所謂的聯合祭典還有大法會"},{"start":9783.016,"end":9793.888,"text":"甚至花蓮縣政府這幾年也在非常多地方預算裡面你們也有糾正過他們不斷的辦所謂五教六教聯合法會這個其實都有非常非常多的問題"},{"start":9795.379,"end":9823.221,"text":"好還有7.2億到哪裡去了花蓮縣政府的議員也直接問花蓮縣政府我講了這麼多花了七八分鐘講這麼多我要直接說花蓮縣政府不管是傅寬琦委員當縣長的時候或者是徐振蔚縣長夫妻輪流執政輪流當縣長輪流當立法委員把花蓮當成自己的囊中物的這二十幾年當中花蓮縣政府整個花蓮縣變成一個大家不想去的地方"},{"start":9824.557,"end":9851.249,"text":"而這一次有非常多產值超人然後網路上也有非常多的義工網路上有非常多的物資超人各式各樣的超人大家用自己的心去支持花蓮可是我們看到的是傅坤祺委員繼續在中央甩鍋給中央到地方甩鍋給自己的鄉鎮市政府鄉鎮市區公所這些主管們他自己沒有事情徐政委也沒有事情所以我要再次呼籲拜託監察院"},{"start":9852.947,"end":9869.272,"text":"第一個我希望我們所有的善款不管是過去或者是目前我要跟您報告目前花蓮縣政府針對這一次的顏色胡風災他們有開捐款帳戶喔當然已經有很多民眾呼籲不要捐給花蓮縣政府請直接捐到"},{"start":9870.132,"end":9885.092,"text":"衛福部主管這個政災基金會所以確實台灣人這一次做出了相對明智的選擇可是我要再次提醒連韓國瑜院長都在他自己的社群媒體上發文說他捐錢給花蓮縣政府關心顏色湖的災民"},{"start":9886.193,"end":9899.228,"text":"連我們的韓國瑜院長都做了看起來不大明智的選擇我當然尊重他他有他的判斷但是我要說大部分人跟他選擇是不一樣的所以我想後續不管是這一次顏色胡或是之前0206的花蓮正哉的這些善款監察院這邊我們還有什麼樣的角色可以監督"},{"start":9905.725,"end":9934.776,"text":"跟委員說明一下那個花蓮0206的這個地震 震災的那個部分我們是有調查案也有糾正剛剛委員有說明那有關於善款的那個部分呢看看因為那個原案應該已經結案了因為時間比較長久那看看善款的部分有沒有後續在追蹤的部分好 那這一次呢包含這一次這一次的部分目前剛剛立案"},{"start":9936.657,"end":9963.772,"text":"剛剛10月2號才立案的所以就是原則上調查委員是希望以救災優先我們尊重絕對救災優先而且還有重建的議題是好所以我們是會尊重調查委員的一個職權那相關的委員的意見我們會轉達給調查委員因為這一次顏色虎真的不是只有錢的問題我要提醒我要呼籲社會大眾一起關注人命關天"},{"start":9964.552,"end":9990.571,"text":"這一次有非常多人因此而上身就是因為縣政府撤離計畫不清不楚甚至我們的縣長還出國沒有在第一時間跟中央指揮緊急應變中心站在一起是有傅坤祺委員參與甚至傅坤祺委員自己公開說縣長出國是因為內政部部長打電話給他他才回國的我認為相關疏失我們要積極的監督好不好好謝謝監察院謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":9993.035,"end":9998.135,"text":"好謝謝程培文詢問好那我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":10330.643,"end":10341.356,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在"},{"start":10349.231,"end":10361.241,"text":"羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在來接下來請傅坤祺委員詢答"},{"start":10372.729,"end":10398.837,"text":"主席請司法院代理秘書長監察院監察院代理秘書長請代理秘書長你好秘書長好早上聽到民眾黨總召黃國昌先生說對於監察院的預算跟本席有一些爭執"},{"start":10401.072,"end":10426.98,"text":"當時他選擇相信了這個監察院也就是您給他做的說明所以他毅然決然把所有刪除的預算全部撤案當然國民黨對民眾黨的決定是尊重的但是我們很詫異那也看看這個祕書長是不是也有一些成果"},{"start":10428.413,"end":10454.649,"text":"光是從8月份審查預算到現在短短的不到兩個月當中國內發生很多事情但是最基本的公務人員廢職職務而且位級越高責任罪責越重本席在這裡還是要再請教一下"},{"start":10456.403,"end":10483.253,"text":"國家的行政院長卓榮泰行政院長公然違法對立法院國會所通過的法律案包括軍人加薪要充實國防這民進黨天天說的那抗中保台如果我們自己的軍人都沒有辦法安身立命可以保家衛國三萬五千三的待遇要扛槍上戰場"},{"start":10484.875,"end":10495.757,"text":"而且家裡要如何安家 如何成家所以這個立法院通過了給軍人加級調到3萬等於加2萬這個卓榮泰院長悍然拒絕編列這個請問一下秘書長對這個案子有什麼看法沒有"},{"start":10512.546,"end":10539.257,"text":"就跟委員報告有關於軍人的相關的部分其實監察院有蠻多的調查案件比如說像士官的援俄 待遇跟他們退休的相關的給予的部分我們也非常關注軍中人權的部分這一次立法院通過了相關的法規行政院就是"},{"start":10540.057,"end":10566.235,"text":"沒有編列預算的部分目前監察院是沒有澄清案也沒有檢舉案所以目前還沒有啟動所以監察院是要看到有人檢舉還是有人澄清才會辦案嗎我們立案的方式有四種那其中當然有監察委員主動立案嘛對不對那所以現在監察委員有幾位目前是25"},{"start":10567.943,"end":10595.88,"text":"25位 沒有人主動來立案嗎目前說明沒有所以表示現在監察院是完全失能對於我們國防壯大這麼重要的軍人家籍行政院拒絕 悍然拒絕編列那本席再跟您討論一下也包括警察消防退休所得替代率到80%"},{"start":10597.52,"end":10607.465,"text":"請問您 國內紛紛擾擾 炒成這樣行政院在155年預算編列了沒有秘書長 編列了沒有這是行政院編列的預算沒有關係啦 本期就直接告訴你 都沒有編啦這不只啊 周榮泰公然違憲違法"},{"start":10624.662,"end":10647.867,"text":"而且這兩個案子立法院三讀通過以後都經過行政院總統院長自己的附屬送到總統總統府總統簽署後公告實施但是連自己附屬總統簽署公告都居然悍不實施請問該當何罪"},{"start":10655.739,"end":10666.527,"text":"這個我只能說明就是說玉石大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡玉石大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡不知道民主黨 這比較勉強你回答這是最基本的Lesson 1沒有辦法回答要保官位 所以沒有辦法回答"},{"start":10682.52,"end":10704.647,"text":"好 沒關係 本席不勉強你我們就看到現在的監察院是什麼樣的一個監察院再過來高雄的天坑大大小小50多處啊我們就舉一處來說就好秘書長光其中一處有6公頃6公頃深20米"},{"start":10710.575,"end":10726.267,"text":"民主黨 這總共挖走多少沙土 知道嗎還有幾倍 挖了多少 因為20米深有挖到幾倍了沒關係 不知道本席告訴你1公頃1萬平方米 6公頃6萬平方米20米深 再乘以20 是120萬立方米"},{"start":10735.276,"end":10760.526,"text":"大概是一立方公尺大概是1.5噸現在一台車要載一台卡車要載大概20噸要把光這個天坑其他50個坑不要談光談這個坑那個資料都有問題我就這樣給您介紹一下"},{"start":10762.711,"end":10785.742,"text":"180萬噸一台車載20噸總共要載9萬台車包括我們的國土署天天在那裡監視我們的林保署天天在那裡監視農業部 內政部的直升機天天在那裡飛"},{"start":10789.067,"end":10811.034,"text":"6萬台車 6萬台卡車 竟然沒有人看到高雄市政府沒有看到高雄市政府警察局沒有看到高雄市政府農業局沒有看到高雄市調查處沒有看到監察委員通通沒有看到"},{"start":10814.591,"end":10827.48,"text":"我們現在講建築廢棄建築廢棄物囤到裡面我本席現在先不跟你談有毒廢棄物就光講如果有毒廢棄物也在裡面環境部也有問題這裡面光囤在裡面光囤在裡面建築廢棄物一噸三千塊一噸三千塊"},{"start":10847.43,"end":10871.758,"text":"180萬方大概就55億還不包括挖走的土還不包括挖走的土還不包括挖走的土拿去倒賣這麼國家重大的案子有人調查了沒有跟委員報告 有委員韓巡兩位委員還在韓巡中韓巡收集資料 好 謝謝"},{"start":10875.376,"end":10896.027,"text":"有沒有可能像總統大選的時候恩恩案一樣每天都可以公佈啊還有上半場中半場下半場每天早中晚都可以公佈 可以嗎不要跟我講監察法26條早中晚不是趙三餐公佈的嗎 總統大選不是趙三餐在公佈嗎記者都在報導嘛"},{"start":10902.403,"end":10928.564,"text":"那請問一下 恩恩案的調查委員你們有沒有調查這些委員有沒有洩露為什麼時時報 日日報呢有沒有調查沒有調查好 沒有調查這是我們的監察院好 本席在這裡快速的請您因為沒有關係我們還會再找您來我們現在包括內湖池水庫"},{"start":10930.117,"end":10959.732,"text":"金湖水庫阿嘎宮殿水庫鹽水杯水庫還有烏山頭水庫民營這個水面式的光電到底是用什麼方式在民生用水的水庫來試行清洗它核准的過程是如何牽涉多少部會多少地方政府"},{"start":10961.243,"end":10983.252,"text":"本席在這裡請監察院勇於調查有沒有問題有沒有問題有立案 也有立案最後本席在一定要跟秘書長來切磋一下就了解本席的能量有多大光靠罵傅坤祺就可以當部分區立委"},{"start":10984.861,"end":11010.45,"text":"我要給養這麼多人齁只要罵我就有工作可以做所以呢光造謠傅坤祺就有工作可以做還可以當到部分區立委本席現在請教你齁剛剛早上的詢談你已經說有提案了有人提案很好本席在這裡公然在國會殿堂請他查明8月11號"},{"start":11012.787,"end":11040.569,"text":"針對堰塞湖可能發生的洪災花蓮縣政府 光復鄉公所農業部 經濟部 四方會談有會議記錄 也有錄音現在跟行政院各部會開的會通通要錄音錄影有錄音特別政告第一個農業部負責監測堰塞湖只要有任何情況發生溢流或潰壩"},{"start":11042.116,"end":11068.815,"text":"必須要立刻施放海嘯警報結果 本席那天也問過卓榮泰院長也問過劉世芳部長結果當天沒有施放海嘯警報好 這第一 草菅人命然後在行政院的前進協調所指揮官紀連城政委"},{"start":11069.915,"end":11093.944,"text":"再給賴清德總統報告的這個驗射壺的警戒發布第一章第一頁就講一定要發海嘯警報這個行政院已經自證其罪了第二個已經聲明在8月11號聲明有錄音檔也有會議記錄要求馬太安西有兩個開口題"},{"start":11096.092,"end":11121.854,"text":"在去年康瑞颱風就曾經溢流到佛祖街溢流到整個幾幾乎要到光復的街坡這張圖就是農業部的圖我都沒有加一筆在上面農業部就提醒經濟部會從這裡溢流進來這是農業部做的圖也有會議記錄要求他把這兩個洞補上"},{"start":11124.418,"end":11151.086,"text":"結果 而且強度要夠結果就是從這裡進來把整個關物箱淹沒經濟部廢辭職務草菅人命而且更湊巧的是紀連城政委在給賴清德總統報告的過程當中從9月23號發生經濟部水利署立刻"},{"start":11152.028,"end":11179.61,"text":"立刻短短不到10天完成了5米高2860公尺長的堤防那請問8月11號會議做的決議他為什麼不做等災後才來做效率這麼好行政院再一次自證其罪監察院"},{"start":11180.748,"end":11200.451,"text":"看看你們有什麼樣的風骨到底是監察院還是行政院的調查科我們就拭目以待議長 可以回答嗎就是有關於馬太安的那部分本院在10月2號已經有委員調查可以今天公布嗎"},{"start":11201.962,"end":11218.494,"text":"因為這個委員是沒有授權幕僚你可以徵詢看看嘛 好不好不然我們還要問淨檢很麻煩問淨檢什麼都問得到 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝傅坤祺委員接下來請羅志強委員宣打"},{"start":11230.905,"end":11234.866,"text":"主席有請王副秘書長請副秘書長請教副秘書長幾個月前李俊逸前秘書長因為濫用公務車送狗去美容因此辭職了對不對但是監察院其實當時爆出濫用公務車的也不只李俊逸一個人"},{"start":11257.654,"end":11276.585,"text":"包括林玉龍 王榮章 蘇利窮同樣都有這方面的爭議當時李鴻鈞副院長說要把這些監委送紀律委員會請問目前進度如何針對李俊逸還有這些監委有進行進一步的調查嗎"},{"start":11277.831,"end":11299.041,"text":"跟委員報告6月6號的時候相關的案件就進了紀律委員會紀律委員會其實在7月份就開過兩次會議因為有任期所以到7月31號任期到不過前面一次的紀律委員會四個月了"},{"start":11299.841,"end":11319.857,"text":"前面的紀律委員會已經有派兩位紀律委員去收集資料到8月1號以後8月1號是一個新的七個紀律委員副秘書長你講的一大堆什麼任期到什麼新的紀律委員都無法解釋一件事情"},{"start":11321.667,"end":11346.607,"text":"這麼簡單的事情四個月放在那邊擺爛來我想請教一下你們監察院的這個年度的施政目標就包括針對行政機關違私立案調查提出糾正案對不對然後追究相關責任處期徹底注意改善結果你們監察院自己的違法濫權"},{"start":11349.14,"end":11376.05,"text":"沒關係啊一晃眼拖個四個月過去他跟我講什麼因為這個任期借買因為新的上來你覺得我們台灣人民聽得懂嗎聽得進去嗎遇到你們自己就拖拖拖慢慢慢是這樣子嗎跟委員說明這個任期是事實是這樣子然後另外呢事實是什麼事實就是你們對自己的部分就是搞拖延"},{"start":11377.956,"end":11404.218,"text":"監察百官的机关变成最该被监察的对象然后叫人民怎么去信任监察院那我就直接问你啊傅秘书我知道你大概也答不出来了请问到底什么时候给我们结果嘛你现在有新的机遇委员会出来了告诉我啊是不是等到下一个机遇委员会任期多久一年一年后再跟我讲说抱歉啦一年这个新的机遇委员会"},{"start":11405.478,"end":11409.29,"text":"又任期借買 又要新的紀律輪會無限紀律下去嗎"},{"start":11411.233,"end":11436.475,"text":"就是新的紀律委員會他們已經開過有兩次的約詢兩次的調卷而且兩次提出拜託啦速度快一點10月份報告其實出稿已經出來了出稿出來了那告訴我結論是什麼通通沒事做官員的典範不用有任何的結果不用負擔任何代價是這個結果嗎告訴我"},{"start":11438.745,"end":11460.776,"text":"那個紀律委員會是獨立行使職權我是行政幕僚我知道你不會講我不曉得我知道你不曉得不曉得拭目以待好不好可不可以我想請問如果地方政府放任土地環境被違法開發破壞清道廢棄物該不該開罰該不該處理監察院該不該調查"},{"start":11465.166,"end":11492.762,"text":"其实监察院是事后权那跟行政权里面还是有权力分立的适用所以呢如果有事件发生应该是行政权优先处理你不是废话吗我就问你了如假学渣案算不算事后权啊假如渣案吗学假如渣案对啊我要问你就是这些已经发生的事情"},{"start":11493.854,"end":11517.666,"text":"要不要調查有調查案來來來有調查我當然知道啊好來我們監察院社會福利及衛生環境等委員會在今年8月20號有召開聯席會議嘛對不對是針對台南雪茄的爐渣案還有一些重要的一些議題來進行討論嘛對不對來你知道根據會議記錄什麼時候開會什麼時候散會"},{"start":11524.529,"end":11539.015,"text":"來啦 我告訴你啦對啊喔 非常長 我就忍這句話來來來來 我告訴你來來來 我跟你講我這邊很簡單 你們會議紀錄在這邊8月20號下午3點42分開會嘛 對不對你知道什麼時候結束嗎你們會議紀錄寫的喔 散會是什麼時候"},{"start":11552.395,"end":11565.025,"text":"散會3點42分好厲害真的好厲害3點42分開會3點42分散會文化部補助0日攻擊你們是什麼0秒開會"},{"start":11570.048,"end":11589.901,"text":"因為常設委員會在開會的時候是會開他的本會跟各聯席會議那會議記錄的話就會一段你覺得你講這些大家聽得懂來來我講下一個問題你知道那天不只開這個會吧8月20號當天下午3點37分到42分5分鐘開了幾場聯席會開了幾場告訴我"},{"start":11597.123,"end":11619.342,"text":"開了七場聯席會好有效率啊 監察院真的太厲害了有兩個聯席會3點38分開會3點38分散會又是一個所謂的零分開會你知道在立法院開聯席會要開多久啊常常開一整天耶還要挑釁夜戰耶"},{"start":11623.243,"end":11651.024,"text":"我讓你答不出來啦你剛剛已經認了五秒鐘答不出來啦不是因為我手中沒有相關的資料欸欸欸你們連這個都不知道來五分鐘開七場一分鐘開兩場你跟我講開什麼會啊過場而已啦來這七場我直接告訴你包含哪些議題看我有沒有說錯包括性騷擾台南雪甲爐災案外籍漁工人權家暴長照健康食品安全環境保護"},{"start":11653.291,"end":11678.831,"text":"五分鐘講得完啊因為剛剛委員講的那個議題不是在審調查報告而是在審後面的你剛才跟我講你們聯席會開很久你現在要改口了嗎後面的審查意見那審查意見前面已經經過調查委員我跟你講 副秘書長你到現在為止你在兜圈圈我不為難你啦你是行政幕僚 不為難你啦"},{"start":11680.785,"end":11690.193,"text":"最諷刺的是 你知道監察院你剛送進來115年預算議事行政上引印機租金印刷費用編多少錢354萬還有一筆是有線電視收視費開會餘時誤參費多少錢134.9萬"},{"start":11707.738,"end":11735.621,"text":"監委你認真工作有些費用是可以編列但是我要跟你講光光你那聯席會五分鐘開七場印大量的會議資料我直接跟你講對不起那會議資料根本沒有用心討論就是敷衍連買A4紙跟碳水匣給你們都是浪費五分鐘開七場會議的單位你有臉去編百萬元的務參費"},{"start":11737.728,"end":11757.176,"text":"還要編列預算給監察委員看有線電視照你們這種開會的速度我真覺得你們到底有沒有時間誤餐這些不合理的項目我直接跟你預告進入到審查的時候我們就嚴格審查要刪就刪再來我要請教115年編了900萬元的沒宣費對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":11767.079,"end":11786.037,"text":"在平和指標上你們自己設定人權獎項要達10萬次人權研討會也是10萬次人權教育推廣徵建活動要達30萬人次然後人權專題宣導達35萬人次人權影像紀錄要達45萬以上觀看也就是說總共要達130萬次觀看我跟你講"},{"start":11791.769,"end":11817.052,"text":"我自己的那個社群平台有時候一支影片30秒鐘成本零也可以破百萬但沒有關係你要編900萬去達130萬次觀看可以啦可以啦那麼來看看你到底做得你做不做得到來請問你知道監察院自己有那個youtube頻道吧你知道你們訂閱數多少"},{"start":11820.063,"end":11825.725,"text":"我告訴你啦非常棒的數字啊402人你有沒有訂閱數402然後你跟我講說你要130萬觀看你的訂閱數402你竟然搞這麼久連1000都沒破給你錢是幹嘛丟海裡嗎"},{"start":11844.557,"end":11850.761,"text":"來 我想請教 目前監察院上架了多少影片目前監察院上架了多少影片150隻你知道最高大概點閱率多少嗎我知道你也不知道啦最高的不到1萬 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謝謝主席有請教育部部長有請鄭部長委員好部長早安我今天就剛剛其實這個萬美玲委員她提到要跟這個國防部講一下那個水的問題那天其實在審特別預算的時候其實我人也在場但是呢這個所謂的常備用水"},{"start":33.415,"end":49.347,"text":"軍備用的儲水跟一般的礦泉水看似都是水但是其實這個魔鬼藏在細節當中那我先呼應一下這個其實也不用跟國防部說啦因為國防部講的這個戰備的用水一瓶120元其實是普遍"},{"start":49.927,"end":71.642,"text":"在军事专家眼中它的市价就是这么高为什么因为5年以上的保存水它的保存期限比较久瓶身加厚为了要降低透氧率生产的成本是比较高的同时这个水还经过三次的RO逆渗透瓶口在封盖之前还有臭氧杀菌整瓶水要无菌的状态"},{"start":72.222,"end":92.28,"text":"所以這個是必須要在國防部在這次的特別預算當中有特別編列這樣子的一個預算這也是因應我們的國防的需求軍事戰備用水是的確需要的在這裡希望有解決這個萬美玲委員她的一些疑問好 那部長"},{"start":93.141,"end":120.863,"text":"我想这个校事会议您还记得吗5月28号的时候其实我是委员会当中我是第一个提出来的委员那当初其实我们因为校事会议引起在学校端很多老师他们的寒蝉效应那亲师的沟通出现了一些裂痕那这是我们当时提醒教育部要注意的那么在8月7号的时候我在向教育部再次提及了五大的一个建议那我想这个五大的建议包含"},{"start":122.349,"end":147.644,"text":"建立這個分級的一個處理提高校事會議的啟動的一個門檻再來第二點就是要保障老師知情跟答辯權再來第三要健全調查委員的選任跟培訓的制度這個是人才庫的部分再來第四就是我們要有第三方的公正公平的審議的單位再來第五點就是我們要如何建立這些曾經被校事會議調查過後"},{"start":149.625,"end":173.287,"text":"但是其實也查無實證或者是最後其實以所謂的像法官一樣不提訴這樣子的老師他怎麼樣來恢復他的名譽在心理層面跟他的整個所有的法律的支持我們要怎麼樣來做實質上的一個幫助這些老師們我想我提出了這五大要點我們也很高興就是在9月16號的時候我們的政府長您也承諾了"},{"start":173.908,"end":197.381,"text":"那在年底之前我們的消失會議有很大的改善的一個空間那調整的一個空間那同時您也說要刪除這個現行匿名檢舉單數的一個規定那我想這個部分來講其實對於消失會議來講我們是有往正向的方向去走但是我們其實最重要的就是希望能夠減少更多的衝突那麼減少爛訴"},{"start":199.182,"end":216.975,"text":"我想初步的溝通我們也得到了一些正面的回應同時也符合教師們的期待這是我們最希望能夠看到的但是在大部分的細節的部分我想可能還不是那麼的清楚跟明瞭在這裡我想要再次的請教部長"},{"start":218.456,"end":243.184,"text":"就是在事前我們剛剛有講要分流不要那麼急就把這被投訴的老師直接送到所謂的這個校事會議當中就是那個門檻要稍微提高但是在這個進入校事會議之前我們的行政務團親師的溝通那不管這個結果成功與否那後續應該怎麼處置有沒有一個所謂的一致性的SOP的一個處置的方式"},{"start":243.644,"end":264.452,"text":"或者是還是依照各校他自己的一個方式處理但是如果這個結果比方說家長不夠滿意他甚至要再回頭重複的申訴這有可能也會造成所謂的行政耗損這樣子的一個狀況之下我們可不可以在這個部分也提出改善的方針"},{"start":265.092,"end":280.024,"text":"那第二點我想問的就是當承辦人員他沒有受訓或承辦過所謂的重大情節的案件他影響到了所謂的這個調查的一個結果那這個部分我們有沒有追責的一個機制那第三點我想要問的就是"},{"start":281.092,"end":309.677,"text":"目前最大的一個問題是沒有一個先篩選的制度任何的檢舉都可能會進到所謂的校事會議那基於學校本身他是當事人他又有可能成為所謂的調查的單位我們真的不免擔心球員兼裁判在整個所有的所謂的部長你可能會說會有所謂的複查的一個機制但是這個複查的機制如果還是有體系內的人在審"},{"start":310.717,"end":324.867,"text":"那麼難免在有權力結構的校園當中那這個權力結構的環境裡頭副省的制度本身就缺乏被信任的空間這第三點我們怎麼樣來克服請教一下部長"},{"start":325.526,"end":345.796,"text":"那謝謝委員的一個提醒確實委員當時的一個對校事會議的一個制度上的一些期待我們確實也在分區座談裡面委員對問題的掌握是非常的精準的所以我們大概整個陳主委員所提我們怎麼去分流行政務談其實是溝通這些的"},{"start":346.596,"end":366.936,"text":"我们在未来的新的办法我们会有一些包含例证的一些提示让第一线上的一些学校在整个在运作里边能够有一些实例的一些参考跟有一些依循的一个这我们都会来做包含刚才委员提到说当一个老师被误告然后到最后"},{"start":367.637,"end":388.013,"text":"甚至我們講說法院或者校會判他這個不成立也結案了那對於老師所遭受的權益上的一些受損我們只會去回憶 回復他這個我們大概都是朝這個方向因為自從有效式會議以來我們知道其實在所有的769件當中目前只有成案的只有3.38%是"},{"start":390.054,"end":415,"text":"所以相對的來講就是這些其實教師會議都是成本喔都是費用喔所以我們這個部分包含老師我們就第一個要杜絕這個爛數第二個就是對老師遭受到不名譽的一個指控然後沒有成立的時候所造成的一些甚至在我們要讓他有回復名譽的機制啦我們都有一套的機制希望能夠回復到他原來的一個"},{"start":415.56,"end":439.467,"text":"如果有家長對於這個調查的結果是不滿意的他如果要重複的這個再申請避免重複的申訴這個部分我們可以避免嗎因為我們如果沒有新的市政我們基本上就列入不受理也有這樣的一個機制出來好 那我想就是不管是在行政務談 親事溝通我們要有一個一致性的SOP因為"},{"start":441.368,"end":464.014,"text":"包含我們法院也有一些實際的一個判例對學生 誣告老師法院也做成實際的這個裁判的一個動作我們希望累積有更多的一個案例讓學校在裡面對學生的宣導或者對家長或者學校裡面的運作有一些更多的一些彼此在一個民主法治的社會裡面有一個更適宜的一個"},{"start":464.734,"end":492.252,"text":"我想其实我们都不希望造成学校行政人力或者是教师他们在教学在被调查的期间这一两个月当中他们可能一方面要准备教材二方面要应付所谓的校师会议这样子的调查造成他们其实身心俱疲那我想这影响到的还是学生们受教的一个权益我们还是让教学回归专业让学校能够变成更良善的一个机制我完全认同委员的一个"},{"start":492.512,"end":513.709,"text":"好 那我们往这个方向走 那我想校事会议有很多细腻的部分 很多细节的部分我们可能再找时间再来好好的沟通跟讨论好 那第二个我想就是在昨天其实我们也跟培育委员特别有开了一个座谈会那也就是相对的来讲我们非常关心所谓的特教生他们的一些权益的一些问题"},{"start":514.509,"end":538.548,"text":"我想給特教生一個比較完整的運動學習的環境教育部跟國教署其實近幾年來也都非常非常地重視也投入了相當的心力展現了我們的政府對所謂的生長生的權益正式的一個問題但是隨著體育署升格為運動部接著下來我們過去體育署所負責的不管是它的課程的設計"},{"start":539.989,"end":559.324,"text":"師資的培育或者是特教生的支持現在有沒有明確承接的單位如果沒有明確承接的單位我們也很擔心在校園當中尤其是高中以下他們是有體育課的但是他們的權益到底是誰來接手會不會因為我們的組織改革了"},{"start":559.904,"end":576.624,"text":"我們可能這些所謂的特教生他們的適應體育的這個部分變成被邊緣化了反而他們的權益被忽視了這個部分我們是不是也請教育部這邊來回應一下感謝委員關心我們對特殊教育這一個對象的學生在整個視訊體育事實上運動部"},{"start":579.287,"end":596.872,"text":"有私信體育師我想這一個對銜接這一個我們這個特殊教育的學生我們在當然未來是一定是跨部會合作的那另外也跟我們報告對特殊教育的一個學生我們本來就有一個IEP的這樣的一個個別化的"},{"start":597.677,"end":613.546,"text":"的一個教學計畫那個別化的教學計畫除了有特教老師有學科老師他還有特別為這一個學生所這一個個別化的一個教育的這個體育的這樣一個訓練但是因為現在我們知道這個適應體育它有分課程內"},{"start":614.566,"end":637.322,"text":"跟課程外這兩塊的業務是被切割的喔那這兩塊的業務現在到底是由哪一個單位接手課程內的部分特教學生一定當然是教育部要優先但屬於教育專業資訊這一個部分我們當然也跟運動部會合作但教育部對銜接這個接觸每一個特殊教育的學生我想我們則後旁待"},{"start":637.882,"end":657.541,"text":"這個是12年以下也就是高中以下我們有體育班我們有體育課那麼他們還是原班在就是在原班上課對於所謂的這個特教生來說但是如果到了大專院校的階段我們怎麼樣來給他們具體的課程跟教學的支持這個部分有考慮嗎因為到了大專以上喔"},{"start":659.023,"end":678.722,"text":"因為剛剛講的其實都是我們的12年國教以下對不對那大專以上的怎麼辦跟委員說明我們的特教中層計畫裡面的這些措施運動部成立之後他會接手體育署原本在做的工作有具體的時程嗎有有有有他們委託了台師大有成立的這個適應體育的那個"},{"start":681.204,"end":707.132,"text":"所以有具体的时程跟方式是的事后可以提供给我们办公室吗因为其实我们最担心的就是我们的适应体育其实应该要放在非常重要的位置上不管我们的运动部当然运动部成立是一个好事是大家都很期待的这代表我们其实是很关心全民运动但是我们也担心所谓的这些特效生他们的一些权益被受损了这个部分事后再提供给我们办公室可以吗"},{"start":707.432,"end":724.615,"text":"沒有問題好 那第三個問題其實今天不要讓舒冰主席站那麼久我快速 我一點點就好了這個去年其實我們一直在我的辦公室一直在關心所謂特交助理員他們的薪資待遇我想教育部也聽取了我們的意見"},{"start":725.376,"end":740.536,"text":"那在這個特教教師助理員的部分我們可以來調整他們加薪的條件同時呢這個教育部也承諾可以回溯到這個113年的8月1號開始生效那這點其實我們非常的感恩也非常的開心教育部真的聽到了"},{"start":740.876,"end":765.437,"text":"但是還是有特教助理員向我們來反映學生助理員已經獲得了全國統一的加薪但是教師助理員的待遇因為現在地方政府他們的財政狀況不一政策上也有差異所以沒有辦法一致就有這樣子的這個特教助理員他告訴我說雖然名為加薪但是我的時數被減了"},{"start":767.219,"end":783.237,"text":"我的時數被減了我的工資相對的來講被變相的減薪這個部分我們怎麼樣來建立讓他們整個所有的這些助理員他們的保障能夠跟全國一致這個部分我們有沒有解方"},{"start":784.841,"end":813.309,"text":"我想這一個我們當然希望說所有的這一個教師助理員學生助理員的薪水能夠受到一定的一個保障那如果我們現在會後我們來收集各縣市在實際的情況怎麼樣然後我們來看怎麼樣來協助讓這一個這些的助理員的一個薪資所以快速的盤點什麼時間點之前可以盤點結束然後由統一的一個月以內我們跟一個月"},{"start":814.829,"end":821.05,"text":"好 謝謝部長的回應好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席謝謝謝謝育勤委員的質詢那官員請回座好 現在請謝榮介委員進行質詢"},{"start":847.434,"end":859.928,"text":"主席 我請保長好 請鄭部長委員好保長 你好請教 你離開高一多久"},{"start":862.472,"end":865.795,"text":"1995年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年1991年"},{"start":889.764,"end":892.887,"text":"如果能夠補充它對身體的發電是有幫助的你覺得這個政策最好是怎麼停"},{"start":898.581,"end":920.272,"text":"別人說這也是我在認為跟委員報告我感覺很可笑的因為在這個政策中央會議中央會議裏面推動不夠不夠希望可笑你又要支持我啦我當然我是支持有幾個生氣繼續在做啦現在目前已經有十幾個這個停起來的時候有很多老師都拍手叫好我來請教就是說"},{"start":928.063,"end":932.565,"text":"今天很多人在探討說老師三燈兩瓦就去幫他倒數甚至從五年到學校的時候是要老師去幫五年來給孩子吃老師為什麼這個政策聽起來拍手比較好"},{"start":948.18,"end":974.616,"text":"心聲很無奈一分錢一分錢花我跟政府簽約的時候 我的退休金是多少結果我們的政府呢 退休金抬到226他說現在沒人來照吃照吃我孩子 我如果要用心跟你嫁我想你六十幾年來做告知的時候絕對不是這個環境我在討債的時候 我老師說什麼 早自修你等我坐在那裡就好了土卡我替你掃"},{"start":976.141,"end":1002.251,"text":"老師退學前去掃地啊為什麼他覺得有解答 我知道北京的孩子有解答我退休 我有保障啊結果一個退休政策你把人家的退休金貸還不擋不起你還叫他就要照顧孩子照顧到安裝很十成 算了現在老師起來今天如果照顧一個比十成的十個裡面一個不爽快就把你倒數倒數啊 你就再搬了"},{"start":1003.069,"end":1019.719,"text":"這已經造成惡性的循環了 我相信你對高雄到台北你感受應該比其他人更深了你今天做這個補充 這一位要講一件事情要比較有價值的 說真的替這些人講話冬季時光太替尤金的時候 我們的總額算是一條七千多億因為那時候想說我們經濟會賣掉所以老師 你比較委屈的"},{"start":1033.889,"end":1044.917,"text":"結果經過高檔後,我們的中武省經濟發展變成三條了你應該在這個議題要多關心一下,本席今天跟你講要表你發表意見,談這件事情都可能會打翻,也沒意思AI這個東西,台灣已經陷入一個壯強期,我說的確"},{"start":1057.97,"end":1064.388,"text":"一個基本法找不出來全世界AI的三頁我們台灣是明的真貓"},{"start":1066.397,"end":1093.644,"text":"你知道嗎?我們的三項的出口也好,三項的制度也好結果呢,很多人說AI去衝到什麼人的生意,衝到什麼人的頭腦,衝到什麼人的工作這就是你教育的問題包括你中心教育也好,包括這個AI一定要很重視為什麼我們台灣在使用AI的比率落在20名外為什麼我們的三項的制度是在第一名、第二名"},{"start":1094.912,"end":1114.157,"text":"怎麼會落差這麼大?沒有對教育開示,包括孩子要選一個,不要說選了,對這個平台的立場,進入平台去找找他的地位,跟用AI化作他的工具,提升個人人類的地位,這是一個一念之差而已。"},{"start":1115.495,"end":1117.577,"text":"你用一個窮逢的心理 AI 出來歐巴桑會沒頭腦 世王會沒頭腦 彭佩娜沒頭腦大家都沒頭腦 老師也沒頭腦不是這樣"},{"start":1126.178,"end":1140.231,"text":"所以對教育要勇敢打出第一步強加大幅度的 強加對AI的認知 把AI當作是工具 提升我們人類的地位將來我們可以跟這些機器人電腦 繼續競爭這樣不就對了為什麼社會變成大家看 講到AI 全都不明了一個正面 一個負面 兩極化 這麼嚴重為什麼"},{"start":1153.57,"end":1177.278,"text":"基本上我認同委員所講的說法就是說這個科技的快速發展不是因為這樣我們就沒辦法了我們要怎麼利用這個科技給我們的大陸人但是你現在教育不足了 很多人變成這樣了有啦 我們現在也向委員報告我們在這個AI專門維修開始上包括老師 我也跟他們說我們一年多用幾千的 這樣是不夠的"},{"start":1178.158,"end":1190.587,"text":"老師的真能我們應該要數以萬計要交換這個速度就是說我們現在要做目標跟委員所想的事是相同的陰性逐一跟我說 你的大娘你就是所有教育教育的人"},{"start":1192.54,"end":1208.558,"text":"你身體就行之後所有的人就用你做計標了這是長期 不是叫你要做久了但是你長這個風氣起來之後會普遍包括總統 行政議員包括所有台北省下的人"},{"start":1210.129,"end":1227.42,"text":"應該把對著AI溫馨的兇器的心理徹徹拜託這樣我們很快就跟我們的三峽一樣在使用AI跟淋漆AI這個領域就對了我們很快就跳到世界的三面來因為我們有很好的條件嘛但是你們的採購很多對國防、交通、教育的採購我跟你們說都比人貴很多啦這你來補要檢討一下這我來檢討我請教你齁,這個災危發"},{"start":1240.014,"end":1245.659,"text":"你們對著台南市,國立的國中節,有幾天你知道嗎?我們台南市沒關係,應該有22天啦,22天這裡都中耶,現在在你的手裡,一天有算是多少?"},{"start":1259.043,"end":1261.364,"text":"一間學校的預算1億到3億 工科學校會接近3億"},{"start":1276.125,"end":1288.509,"text":"財委法已經通過了 行政委員會準備要跟地方政府來發計劃就是說這錢要怎麼分你敢有幾位把這22天的國立的國中節 撒在台南市政府有沒有不可能沒有 你們內部人都這樣說"},{"start":1297.017,"end":1318.321,"text":"郭文貴報告是有的 一直在進行 最近也會進行台南縣市合併的時候是全台灣災情最困難的22名到23名兩個爛兄爛弟合併 那時候我就坐在那裡等啊所以老總統身為第一任的台南市長的時候就批評啊 一間就不給你接啊那時候我也支持 因為接不到台南市要倒啊啊你現在都要等到完啊啊不然這個災害發台南市會說不公平啊等下來 你政府要補助多少"},{"start":1327.85,"end":1357.186,"text":"你告訴我 他沒有什麼可能 你說要賺你一定要給我們算好所以接近40億左右 左右是左到是左還是右啊40億往上 往上你說的很不合理 錢的事情 親兄弟明算帳因為他有一些細算 除了人事經費 還要算到一些補助案你要補助完就對了 補助台南市 所以看財化法完全沒有關係 說得好喔"},{"start":1358.513,"end":1372.657,"text":"現在我們財務法要怎麼定的錢這40億是都沒有管的 不知道來的喔是不是就是像前面的三個縣市一樣那個是按照98年的要求請抱歉你錄的96%嘛對不對 人事費的部分台南市的"},{"start":1378.106,"end":1390.496,"text":"到時候都一樣 因為這三個縣市收的時候新北市是92%所以差4% 我們給他5500萬 類似這樣台中市是96%對 等補助的 好 感謝本席幫你說明一下第三次冬季時期不應該合併的情形 要用文化合併"},{"start":1403.536,"end":1421.562,"text":"是在兩個官司 台南市跟台南官司 災情最困難的時候來合併結果這大中間 民進黨公眾被侵染 已經接近九年了對台南的災情沒幫忙 現在一個財委發通過之後說 喔 這樣對台南市沒公平"},{"start":1422.95,"end":1447.546,"text":"給一百六十三億我們有什麼不公平 好啦 你如果說這個學校要斷掉來給台南市接收啦 編制啦本市希望你做一個精神 在一個月內 因為這是明年的事情一個月內 我希望你跟這裡所有國立的高中一個學校的無聲明聲 跟一半台南市之後 財政的幾位上來本市的辦公室 這樣有辦法嗎好好 感謝你"}]}},{"id":"164225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164225","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6bc52d23530cde995bc2e7a8918bc9e770febda90f1cdde82ec4005c00d4bcaf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"13:33:51 - 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我們請國教署長好了啦我們換署長部長休息一下 但是我想我們講的部長都非常清楚好 來"},{"start":13.819,"end":36.037,"text":"謝謝署長好署長辛苦了我們辦公室昨天才跟一些教文的委員當然還有包含許富奎委員我們開了一個特教座談會因為許富奎委員昨天自己也有說他自己的兒子也是糖寶寶其實我想部裡面一直都知道我們辦公室每一個會期都會辦特教座談會那因為有特教的議題方方面面那我想"},{"start":36.838,"end":63.084,"text":"收容的议题非常多不可能在今天讨论完毕那后续的工作要持续推进就是我们办公室这边公开拜托教育部跟国教署积极协助所有收容的问题我们让普特融合这个议题可以做得更好好不好好的好 署长我们来看一下我们今天就先讲第一个就好了来疑似生疑似生是现在让普师跟特师都感到非常困扰的议题第一个因为我们对于疑似生的定义"},{"start":63.704,"end":92.05,"text":"其實沒有法規範的定義也沒有相關的說明所以呢我們來看一下現場這個數字這是你們給我們的數字以台北市來說特教生跟疑似生的比例是4比1也就是說在台北市光是疑似生就2510名來到了宜蘭縣也是5比1花蓮縣也是5比1這個是特生跟疑似生的比例可是很詭異的是很奇怪我們來看高雄市整個高雄市在113年度只有一名疑似生"},{"start":93.433,"end":119.713,"text":"如果同樣都是六都署長你有沒有覺得這個數字差別太大了我認為這個差別之所以這麼大不是台北市出了問題也不是高雄市出了問題而是我們對於疑似生的定義跟認識不會只有地方上的差異可能你當老師的班跟我當老師的班署長你當導師跟我當導師我們對於疑似生的定義就不清楚而且沒有百分之百相同導致於我們出現這個數字"},{"start":121.554,"end":146.62,"text":"这部分你爸爸说明一下我时间很短你快速说明中文委员报告两点目前法规上是的确没有比较明确的这个定义但是它跟鉴定是绑在一起鉴定这个钱那现在我们想要在两个月内把委员所持现在平均数是约略十比一但局部限制有刚才比较奇异的现象这些我们会去了解当地地方政府执行的情形"},{"start":146.92,"end":175.289,"text":"好 但是我们到底要怎么样定义疑似生我认为这件事情是现场老师都需要你们的帮忙那当然因为现场老师他们每天都在陪伴学生所以他们在现场观察的意见拜托你们一定要收拢不要只有透过教总或是教材我认为更多地方老师的座谈拜托去收拢我们会自行执行好 拜托定义要清楚再来往下看第二个问题现在疑似生老师们在现场面对的困境是你看根据你们的法规所写的"},{"start":176.589,"end":200.421,"text":"為持有各級主管機關合法有效鑑定證明之身心障礙疑似身學校要因學生輔導法規定提供服務特教老師也要提供協助然後還要觀察跟學習特殊需求評估必要的時候還要提報鑑定這就是我剛說的普施跟特施都在服務這些學生也就是說普施跟特施都在疑似身高漲的現場"},{"start":202.302,"end":223.92,"text":"那个师生比其实是要提高的可是我们现在看到的生师比其实是不含一次生对不对 署长目前是没有没错所以署长我们一起看到老师的困境好不好老师的困境就是生师比很难降下来然后可是家长对于生师比很高其实也常年的不满孩子所能够受到照顾跟服务相对也没有那么好所以呢"},{"start":224.62,"end":251.537,"text":"可是我們特教法又規定要降低生殖比可是我們對於疑似生的定義又不清楚可是現場全球都有一個趨勢喔署長你一定比我清楚全球都有一個趨勢就是特教生的比例越來越高包含美國他們都因為這樣要積極的在川普政府任內要推出相對應的法規跟大量的預算所以我認為特教生這個議題喔絕對是部裡面非常重的議題要拜託部長跟署長我們一起努力好不好是的"},{"start":251.877,"end":269.649,"text":"好 最后一个我要三秒钟讲完我就不长暂的听就可以了体育班的问题我相信部里面已经开启跟运动部的讨论我还是一个简单的诉求不管在几年内我希望越短时间越好我们让体育班这件事情要回归教育部主管机关这个非常非常重要"},{"start":270.069,"end":285.894,"text":"但是如何在回歸教育部主管機關同時收攏現場基層教練的聲音家長的聲音同時照顧到每一個學生的需求這個是非常非常重要拜託我們一起努力好 謝謝署長 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳柏宇委員 謝謝署長現在我們請伍麗華委員進行質詢"},{"start":297.059,"end":298.022,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請鄭部長"},{"start":306.448,"end":325.513,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了在上個會期5月28的時候我來教文委員會質詢教育部長有提到兩大訴求這兩大訴求其實就是在教育界討論非常熱烈的當時我的訴求第一個就是說希望能夠做個分流機制來處理匿名檢舉"},{"start":327.654,"end":349.042,"text":"那另外一個就是希望我可以請我們教育部來針對校士會議全國中等以下學校的這個數據樣態可以掌握到那非常感謝我也拿到了調查的一個數據資料那總歸來講大概有三點第一個就是發現這些案件中八成是受理的"},{"start":349.562,"end":373.861,"text":"但是受理的中间有一半是不成立的而且成立的案件中超过一半是进入考核办法是轻微的申戒所以这个跟我们大致上想象的也差不多所以我后来也看到教育部发布的新闻稿也提到说会修校事会议办法包括这种匿名检举"},{"start":374.401,"end":395.694,"text":"還有案件的受理的一個分流方向非常好但是我想這個部分我還是有一些部分還是要來提醒精進那第一個部分就是因為在這些受理調查期間礙於教師法的第25條大家很在意的就是調查期間的半薪那結果如果沒有的時候呢"},{"start":396.707,"end":407.437,"text":"只能夠回復本心所以這個對無望之災的人來講真的是非常非常的冤枉那我不曉得說部長這個部分有精進作為了嗎"},{"start":409.221,"end":428.263,"text":"感謝委員關心教師的一個權益特別對老師這個受到不實的指控以後怎麼樣回復我覺得那是一個也是另外一種所謂的社會的正義所以委員所關心的確實是我們內部現在研議的一個方向"},{"start":429.54,"end":457.269,"text":"請問教育部這邊會主動來修教師法或待遇條例嗎我想我們會跟行政做報告我希望教育部要主動 好不好另外一個部分就是大家很關心所謂的調查的人才 人才庫因為根據我們這個解聘辦法裡面沒有寫到回訊這樣的一個做法也沒有提到利益迴避的一個機制其中就是關於淘汰"},{"start":458.129,"end":482.968,"text":"的機制是有 但是我不太曉得說 到底你們有沒有調查過那到底被淘汰的有多少人 他的比例是多少六常識 嗯好那利益迴避機制呢"},{"start":486.85,"end":506.898,"text":"官委員報告 現行的各種比較高層次的例如程序法 行政程序法這些都已經有規範那麼他們都會簽署那就去根據那個就可以那淘汰機制是辦法裡頭有寫啦還有沒有可以到點都有因為時間的關係是不是可以提供我書面資料我想知道那個淘汰的人數跟比例好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":508.419,"end":537.089,"text":"那另外呢 就是針對這個重複投訴拒絕受理 第51條有但是有一條說載民陳情人對主管機關之處理結果不服者不得提起救濟那這個部分我們是覺得說也是有問題 為什麼因為他不得提起救濟結果呢 就只好找明帶 只好找媒體爆料衍生更多的恐慌所以我不曉得說這個部分是不是應該要去修正提供救濟管道"},{"start":539.497,"end":554.37,"text":"中文報告這都會一併在我們未來的修正都會一併好 謝謝部長另外一個議題就是我非常關心我們族語文教師的一個發展當然我在這邊要特別謝謝教育部"},{"start":555.071,"end":574.333,"text":"因為我這幾年關心的一些像是已經有辦理原住民公費專班 謝謝那調整公費生的畢業條件然後國小足以師資調整為中高級或者是完備原住民族文化學習空間給予這樣的一個補助等等"},{"start":575.314,"end":601.126,"text":"其實每一年每一年謝謝教育部都有聽到我們的聲音也都能夠去做這樣的一個改變那我也代替我們基層的這些老師們說聲感謝但是我想關心一下因為我看今天的夜報說本土語文專長教師證書之師資累計到今年8月底一共有2567人然後截至去年"},{"start":601.966,"end":610.43,"text":"113學年度取得教師證人數的有983人那請教一下這個當中有多少位是原住民的足以釋之"},{"start":618.224,"end":643.654,"text":"我們那個稍後確認再跟你好沒關係那就提供我書面資料為什麼我這樣關心因為我們來看一下其實我們目前的主語教師有分三類第一類就是專職主語教師第二類是教學支援老師第三類就是限職的老師他有認證之後他也可以選擇去上主語課但是我們來看一下比例專職教師大概占一成"},{"start":644.474,"end":663.164,"text":"教學資源老師大概占八成現職老師會去投入教主語課的大概是一成所以絕大宗都是在教學資源教師但是我們看一下夜報寫的說要增進專職主語教師的權益也有說要把他的薪資基準要提升3%"},{"start":664.645,"end":687.988,"text":"但是剛才有談到啦教學資源教師才是最大宗七八成沒有看到他的權益那麼專職主語教師能夠加薪那主語教師很辛苦喔我為什麼這樣講前陣子的新聞在台南有一位教阿美語的主語老師他就是在跑學校的過程中就車禍身亡"},{"start":689.449,"end":709.015,"text":"那我們來看他的基本資料他是一週27節目與課而且是任職13校那這個事件發生之後呢其實台中的這些主委老師與推老師也有找我澄清其中有一位70歲任職16校在台中市"},{"start":709.815,"end":737.837,"text":"他怎麼跟我講呢委員我的錢變多是很好啦可是我都已經70歲了我也不想跑那麼多學校可是他們找不到老師一直找我一直找我啊說委員這個要怎麼辦你要想辦法所以這個現象其實不是個案而是很平凡的現象但是我想說的是說我們的少數人啊佔據了大部分國家政府的族裔的經費的資源"},{"start":739.759,"end":745.274,"text":"我聽過有一些語推老師他的薪水是三萬多但是他的外快六萬多"},{"start":746.943,"end":768.994,"text":"因為他到處要去幫忙做翻譯哪一個部會什麼樣又要去接什麼接什麼接什麼也就是說我們政府提供那麼多的資源但是只有少數人佔據這些大部分的資源那沒有的依然沒有為什麼偏鄉找不到主義老師因為外面都搶得兇得要命他在都會去就好了"},{"start":769.614,"end":798.031,"text":"所以偏鄉反而依然還是沒有所以我是希望說是不是第一個有教育部去思考一下我們整體主語經費到底目前多少它的配置的狀況了解一下那我希望是說另外就是提高這個專職主語老師的比例不要讓這些教學支援教師佔那麼高八成的比例然後他們的權益他們的風險我覺得這個部分部長是不是我們應該來檢討一下"},{"start":800.013,"end":828.036,"text":"謝謝委員提醒好 那另外就是有幾個要精進的就是像現在認證有分中高級 高級 優級啦那我們是希望說分級敘心啦因為沒有道理 大家都一樣我覺得這個其實在教育上其實並不是很好的一個正向的做法那另外就是希望足以教學支援的老師要訂定一個授課時數的上限那不足的部分沒有關係配合直播教學"},{"start":828.416,"end":846.006,"text":"不要讓他們疲於奔命冒風險那另外我也是希望說我們學校的師培啊師培生培養他的第二主語專長那這一些現在像台東大學開的這些主語的語文教師班我們是不是給他做一個第二專長"},{"start":846.986,"end":875.832,"text":"他也可以教別的科 要不然沒有縣市開圈 分發不出去那另外就是這些年輕的主語教師提供他們主語職涯的進入讓這些年輕的老師能夠進來才不會讓這些年紀大的老師一直在那個地方撐那還有一個要提醒的就是有學生跟我們反映他讀到高中了 高中生跟我們反映他們學校上的主語課跟國中的時候學得一模一樣他說他沒有學更多那就是因為我們沒有把關"},{"start":876.772,"end":897.082,"text":"沒有這樣的一個課綱 或者是什麼樣的一個機制所以呢 我也希望說目前還是麻煩我們國教署去查一下 提供一個書面的資料到底現在原資中心我們叫他們有一個任務叫做要去做課程 做教材 那我不曉得到底成效如何 成果如何"},{"start":897.842,"end":925.262,"text":"那再來就是有一個武專生陳情啦他說因為我們訂定的這個辦法齁他說是高級中等以下學校所以呢他是武專生他頻頻跟高一的學生一樣他說學校說那個教育部國教署沒有規定我們要開所以呢不給他上母語課所以我想這個部分齁也希望齁那最後一個部分齁因為昨天的Trade齁大家都在討論自然領域教師免休失陪"},{"start":926.222,"end":945.427,"text":"那這個部分其實國外已經有在做我也知道教育部是正在研議當中那也把這樣的消息放出來但是我只是要提醒啦當年我們缺老師的時候民國七十幾年八零年代那時候因為缺老師我們開放學師後的師資班啦他們是要修兩年四十學分啦"},{"start":946.227,"end":972.515,"text":"但是他們聽說從業界來的只要修八學分那這個部分我覺得我們都應該要說明把方案說明清楚避免引起誤會那他們要怎麼樣取得資格那他們的薪資是怎麼樣可是我覺得我們在說明的時候其實還是要尋求一個最大公約數我們都是為了學生的受教權所以呢老師的教學品質把關才是最重要的"},{"start":973.015,"end":994.315,"text":"如果這些透過嚴格的教學法官他就是很棒的教師我想這個絕對沒有人會去反對所以這個部分我想我也是有點擔憂因為很多人問說那請問如果是專技老師跟老師薪水一樣四五萬他在業界他那麼多張的證照他可以領幾十萬他會願意來參加這個嗎"},{"start":995.836,"end":1009.018,"text":"那我們為了這個辦法是希望招聘優秀人才進來那結果到最後忙了老半天沒有人想來 也不好所以這個部分我還是希望說教育部能夠再想想好 那部長"},{"start":1009.892,"end":1031.687,"text":"感謝委員的提醒其實我們剛才看到這個大專業校我們現在因為少數有一些大專業校理學院工學院的教授他事實上在大學很稱職但是只是因為這一個這個可能學校的一個地點或者學校因為這個人口國內這個台灣人口政策所以他階段性的一個退場"},{"start":1032.327,"end":1053.646,"text":"那这些老师我们事实上他是非常专业的我们当然希望说如果学校里边高中职他有STEM老师上的一个这个不足能够从大学里边这些不管讲师助理教授甚至这个副教授教授也愿意去我们还边有这个奖金来鼓励他到学校里面"},{"start":1054.947,"end":1071.741,"text":"事實上就產業上來講我們也看到有許多產業它面臨的挑戰是很大的所以這些有高學歷的在R&D的這些所謂的工程師或是科技人他們可能通常會到45歲甚至50歲以後他就離開"},{"start":1076.545,"end":1103.837,"text":"離開這個職場他不願意繼續賣乾但是他們對教育是有熱情的他們也是專業的他們跟產業是連結是熟悉的所以這裡邊怎麼樣能夠為技高能夠所用這事實上我們所規範的所想像的都不是外界對不了解的許多的猜測所以我們才希望這個政策溝通事實上還是確保能夠事實來言多樣性但是它是品質是優秀的"},{"start":1104.617,"end":1123.868,"text":"還是要通過學校他們教師生是他們願意的而不是說我今天有這麼的人我就強塞給哪一個學校我想我們只是把這個steam的私私的來源希望能夠鼓舞有熱情專業的人他願意部長就可以多一些素面答覆好不好謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝主席好"},{"start":1131.665,"end":1154.606,"text":"現在請徐副國委員進行質詢 時間4分鐘謝主席 有請我們鄭部長 高教師 廖市長請部長跟高教師委員好 部長好部長 有沒有去過屏東科技大學"},{"start":1155.953,"end":1164.294,"text":"屏東科技大學這個校園很廣 環境很優美但部長知道最近屏東科技大學發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":1167.242,"end":1188.11,"text":"一天內兩個學生在學校裡面車禍身亡兩個年輕生命不見了我想這是非常嚴重的事情那很遺憾的到目前為止對於教育部也好還有評科大也好我們好像都沒有看到比較積極正面的處理方式因為我知道屏東縣政府"},{"start":1188.81,"end":1214.285,"text":"針對我們今年屏東縣政府警察局的統計品科大周邊八萬校園裡面發生八十九起的A2事故受傷人數高達一百二十八人不一定有嚴重嗎非常嚴重但是很遺憾目前為止教育部跟品科大似乎沒有提出比較好的一個對策我這邊也接到很多的學生家長的呈現所以待會兩點半在我的辦公室我要開一個協調會"},{"start":1215.746,"end":1236.209,"text":"保長 你做一個保長 針對這個事情 你有什麼樣的想法跟建議嗎委員報告 比方說我們看到一個年輕人因為行車上的一些安全上 或是發生了一些意外甚至斷送生命 比方說任何人都會不捨 因為北部要靠沒辦法"},{"start":1237.71,"end":1253.602,"text":"這個白髮送黑髮這是我們跟委員講的 要靠沒辦法 將心比心好好要讓他有一個學生可以有比較安全的這個行的一個這個環境我想我們來責成這個平科大一定要認真把他"},{"start":1253.942,"end":1271.97,"text":"對 起到十八號的高中比較還要上我們的評價 覺得這麼好的學校就這樣發生車禍當然我知道目前大概有幾個方向包含教育部也好 包含交通部也好 包含國土署大概有幾個方案都可以推但是我們的速度太慢 學校也不夠積極"},{"start":1273.291,"end":1288.781,"text":"所以保證希望待會我的協調會開的時候你要交代 包含品科大也好 包含我們高教師也好應該我們就馬上要有明確的一個措施啦不能再看了我們孩子因為這樣生命就不一樣了我想感謝委員的提醒"},{"start":1291.283,"end":1304.074,"text":"這個會後我們一定會立即這個折騰這個評科大整個學校的一個治理一定要有一個具體的一些作為當然我知道最近這兩天校長也好或是他們學生會"},{"start":1304.915,"end":1326.201,"text":"都有發一些書面的聲明但這聲明也不能沒有一個積極的作為聲明也是提醒大家而已但是因為他們裡面校園很闊大家騎車我們要速度會比較快如果沒有做一些的必要的一些措施來保障學生的安全我想這個意外還是會發生一定真的要有積極的作為不然這件辦事拜託一下"},{"start":1327.961,"end":1351.892,"text":"那另外我知道 伯弟兄我們現在的那個預算 伯弟兄也讀不完所以我也擔心 我們平常我們現在目前還有25所的學校跑到破損要整修那我們還有26所學校 159間的廁所要整修伯弟兄 會不會因為你的預算減少這些原本的一些修繕計畫受到影響"},{"start":1355.663,"end":1377.392,"text":"均衡台灣本來就是政府既定的一個政策我們怎麼去關照不同的一個財力的一個這個縣市的一個發展我想教育部在這個部分我們會這個折旁帶我們一定跟地方來一起來合作來更積極來協助來改善很高興聽到部長給我們正面的答覆"},{"start":1378.212,"end":1391.479,"text":"這個後續要請部長交代一下要不然我們二十五間一定過去一年補三間現在有可能一年就剩兩間而已我們這二十五間可能要十年後才能完成對孩子情何以堪這萬一塞下去沒辦法 我想"},{"start":1393.16,"end":1416.277,"text":"伯丁你也很不敢 我想你自己也是一個做過這個好好的好長的人 我想你也對這個孩子的這個一個運動效益的環境也很重視那最後一個伯丁我之前有帶 跟我們吳立法委員到我們這個教文委員會到屏東的海生館去考察當然海生館它肩負了海洋教育跟生態保衛的一個重責大任今天館長也有到"},{"start":1417.518,"end":1429.933,"text":"那後續因為鄉村報告的過去有鯨魚化石這是一個很重要的一個未來的一個保存的一個很重要的一個重大的一個計畫那是不是在這部分海生館有沒有什麼樣的一個規劃"},{"start":1433.078,"end":1447.978,"text":"請館長回答委員好 謝委員剛才今年5月19日我們到海生館去看現在跟委員報告一下說目前大概在橫沖挖出來的那些金屯的化石目前正在台中的科博館正在展示到2026年"},{"start":1449.48,"end":1471.576,"text":"那后续有关上次委员关心的横存当地的那些精纯的化石因为这一块涉及到那个文资保护的问题那这跟相关法令还有土地的都有限制那这一部分可能会建议委员因为这部分属于文化部的管辖那如果有文化部出来那后续比如说加上屏东县政府还有像我们海生馆或部里面可以一起来大家来"},{"start":1472.696,"end":1497.161,"text":"協調後續看要怎麼樣我們未來也會跨部會到時候我們會請文化部把這個化石專法我們要立法然後我們也希望能夠爭取一個保存一個場域但是在這個場域要不完全進行我們海生館有一個新的展覽館明年才會好對這方面是不是可以優先把台中科博館的淨油化石可以刷回來給我們屏東最起碼這屏東熬出來給我們屏東人看得到嘛博定能不能承諾這一點"},{"start":1499.108,"end":1504.899,"text":"我想這個我感謝委員的一個提醒我們朝這個方向來規劃來努力好 謝謝謝謝徐副國委員 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工人墜落 電擊或被壓傷持續也在發生中這本席也多次在委員會有提起這個"},{"start":13.23,"end":34.086,"text":"只是希望能改善這個職場環境降低這個相關的風險所以我們看到目前職安網是著重在這個事後處理對工程規劃設計階段的風險評估現場安全管理的落實以及事業單位及承攬人員之間的責任分工對事前的預防還是明顯的不足除了這個"},{"start":37.266,"end":64.087,"text":"職災去年另外一個社會關注焦點就是也是在這個職場霸凌連主管勞工事務的勞動部也都出現相關這樣的事件那在一般的職場中就會有更多的被害人其實說也不敢去申訴或這個申訴無門所以希望透過這次修法第一個可以全面強化職業安全衛生管理制度在工程師一階段就要進行風險評估確保安全衛生費用的確實編列"},{"start":65.475,"end":66.971,"text":"那同時也要明確的"},{"start":68.541,"end":95.29,"text":"各層級承攬人員的安全責任並要求出租或出借工作場所機具設備者必須主動告知危害也針對特定的機械操作人員與自營作業者明定防災的責任那第二就剛剛所提到的職場霸凌防治的制度我們是參考這個性別平等工作法的架構明定何謂職場霸凌強化內部外部的申訴調查處理流程"},{"start":97.484,"end":114.035,"text":"並加強申訴保護人讓受害者真的能夠安心的受到求助最後為了讓制度更加有嚇阻力也提高了刑事罰的刑罰及罰金行政罰款的上限不再讓業者覺得違法只是繳一筆錢就沒事"},{"start":115.436,"end":141.718,"text":"我們希望透過這個職業安全衛生法是希望台灣從事後補救轉為事情衛預防然後同時兼顧到安全與人權讓每一位勞工都可以安全有尊嚴的在環境中工作所以也請各位委員可以來做這個支持那另外這個傷害的部分可能到時候再請這個勞動部在51條裡面再來做說明好 現在我們來請黃部長"}]}},{"id":"164089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6c9d78e075863599fbc2e7a8918bc9e776c439cd226d8052ee6019a9e9ca7183f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:07:57 - 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謝謝昭偉今天排審我想要講說今天這一個題目呢是非常令我們感到非常的遺憾我想在這樣的一個情況之下呢感謝昭偉有這樣子的一個智慧來排審這樣子的一個最重要的一個法案之一職業安全衛生法制施行以來已多年未加以修正隨著社會的變遷我們可以看到產業的型態的多元工作型態的轉變現行的法制"},{"start":35.717,"end":64.67,"text":"部分的規範已經不足以因應新興的這個勞動風險跟職場的一個議題我們近年來看到了頻傳的多場職場霸凌這樣的事件反映到現行法律體制就是缺乏明確的防治規範通報的一個處理機制致死受害的勞工得不到及時的一個保護顯示制度面需要加強需要強化"},{"start":65.45,"end":94.112,"text":"另一方面我們可以看到在營造業等高風險的產業重大的職業災害發生的數量未能有效的減少現行的法制就相關的事故防治成效的有限所以現行的法令對於工作場所機具設備出租出借行為缺乏明確的危害告知的義務制規定導致安全責任難以追溯"},{"start":94.893,"end":111.243,"text":"所以再加上刑事刑法行政法額度的偏低導致整個難以發揮嚇阻的效果所以本次修法的四大重點職場霸凌的防制專章明定職場霸凌的定義"},{"start":112.003,"end":140.558,"text":"还有申诉以及保护的程序确立雇主防治的责任劳工的救济途径第二增订工作场所的设备出租借为的行为能够危害的告知义务提高重大的违法行为的形式还有刑罚来嚇阻罚金的额度还有上限的调整以及强化执法增加威吓效果"},{"start":141.218,"end":165.44,"text":"最後我要說的過去因為外送平台以及外送員僱傭關係他的整個關係未明定此事新增51-1條就是要保護外送員未來如果外送平台沒有提供預防以及措施保護外送員治安法可以直接對外送平台來開罰"},{"start":166.801,"end":180.929,"text":"我們期望這一次的修法能夠完善職業安全衛生的法制健全職場安全以及人權的一個保障機制落實尊嚴勞動的工作環境以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db65949ee491357b69ebc2e7a8918bc9e776c439cd226d8052eef72e06f3d3953b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:04:59 - 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實災的預防 還有相關資料的揭露那麼目前我們公務人員的相關的專業人力的配置或調查真的並不及我們現在治安法整個的架構來的一個強化跟完整"},{"start":109.821,"end":132.822,"text":"那所以我們在這次的修法裡面我們希望能夠把我們廣大基層公務人員的心聲能夠納入希望在整個的職安保障裡面我們不要再繼續的一國兩制可以使得我們更多的公務人員他們也能夠受到職安法相關的架構的保障"},{"start":133.422,"end":155.018,"text":"所以這一次我提出來的修正職安法的修正最主要的精髓就是能夠讓我們公務人員職場友善跟良好的風氣避免再因包含像之前的職場霸凌事件等等的相關這些職業安全的漏洞"},{"start":155.658,"end":168.535,"text":"被我們的 讓我們的公務人員變得他的保障是不足所以也希望在這次的修法裡面能夠得到各位委員還有我們行政部門的支持以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db687059b67dec8cebf6c95259d4de0cc176c439cd226d8052e9dbd41b275635fa55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:45:00 - 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有請部長部長早安 又是新會期開始我們一起加油我有認真地看了一下您這次教育部的業務概況報告我想裡面列的部分我都非常的支持謝謝"},{"start":30.106,"end":45.907,"text":"指導教育部的用心在各種議題上可是中間就缺了一塊因為部長跟我都是教師我一直認為好的教育最核心的就是教師能不能夠有熱血 熱情然後不斷地提升"},{"start":46.408,"end":62.345,"text":"可是针对教师怎么在职场上发挥他的能力这一块好像没有一个专属的单位我翻了一下里面只有两个跟教师有关一个就是私立大学的兼任讲师的讲师费比照公立大学这个很好"},{"start":62.745,"end":85.941,"text":"可是這是高教可是在國教的部分只有一個偏遠地區的教師如何鼓勵教師士氣我覺得這也很好可是面對剛剛也有委員提到的教師荒就是教育部好像我是覺得回應還是很不夠我也想提醒教育部這個問題我在一年多前我應該是最早"},{"start":87.782,"end":115.485,"text":"據說看到教師荒的問題當時不只是開記者會也在總質詢的時候幫教育部爭取你看當時院長承諾合理調整人跟錢我看到的就是人力的問題跟錢不足當時我是幫部長爭取是一年多前的質詢就看到教師荒可是到現在為止我覺得提出來的方案還是沒有辦法解決那這邊也是"},{"start":116.305,"end":133.07,"text":"現在報導的其實一年過了之後教師荒是更加劇更多委員關心了但是我們看到教育部的資訊來源是退休教師校內教師跨校支援部長應該會知道這裡面沒辦法解決現場的問題甚至"},{"start":134.85,"end":153.52,"text":"跨校或者是校內教師支援還會讓英文老師去上體育或者是現有的教師抄終點分掉需要的錢沒有任何的新增人力的話是無法有效解決很多已經有教師資格的人不願意擔任老師"},{"start":154.54,"end":168.499,"text":"我之前就用數據告訴教育部說有教師資格的人很多他不願意投入職場或者有一小部分的人投入職場之後離開了這才是問題喔所以呢"},{"start":169.58,"end":196.228,"text":"我一年多前就在記者會提出五個問題點為什麼年輕人有教師資格也不願意當老師當然更少人要去取得教師資格又是另外一個問題那其中有非常多項我今天只想針對行政繁重偏離教學專業這個第一線現場的聲音那想跟部長討論其中一個解方的可能性就是有沒有辦法行政專職化"},{"start":198.389,"end":221.04,"text":"我知道國教署因為署長正在跟部長講你們的確正在改善中我知道國教署現在想改善的是修正相關的規定得增設副組長一人由教師兼任職員專任或者是兼任這是目前你們的解方"},{"start":221.68,"end":245.16,"text":"国教署想要放宽这个原额编制准则增设副组长好像多了一个行政区那也不再有大小班级的级数限制但是一旦放宽了需要的人力跟经费到底是哪里来我想这不是国教署够钱补助的但也会地方政府来出钱找经费"},{"start":245.72,"end":263.572,"text":"那國教署修這個編制準則當然不錯它看起來最省力可是呢我現在想要跟教育部討論的是這會不會是有實質功用的部長你知道如果國教署這樣修正之後可以全國增加多少個副組長嗎這個部長曉不曉得"},{"start":266.758,"end":283.165,"text":"如果這樣我們剛說行政人力不足過去叫代理教師來接那現在就是大家覺得當老師不能夠好好做專業很多時間要做這個那國教署現在推出來的解放部長知不知道全國可能會增加多少副組長"},{"start":285.321,"end":301.007,"text":"跟委員報告以我們現在國小大概有2600多個學校國中有700多所所以隨著學校的大小規模不一至少比如說以初步的學務人力以單一個學校一個來講就超過3300大概類似這樣的"},{"start":305.809,"end":320.076,"text":"超過3300就是說假設一次到位所以從部裡邊的一個角度我們只要增加一個人力或者一個編制事實上它整體的一個預算經費我們都必須要做一個更完整考量"},{"start":320.556,"end":343.761,"text":"所以剛才委員所提的那個行政專制化事實上有我進來跟我們內部一直在討論也跟院長報告過但是我們必須要從整體的財政因為確實因為今年裡面有一些變數因為財化完以後讓我們在許多的政策的快速的一個推動裡面我們怎麼樣跟中央跟地方去合作這個部分我們一直在"},{"start":344.681,"end":373.199,"text":"那部長先讓我講一下我覺得你剛說3300太低估了的確國中小的學校3300一個學校不會只有一個你看我上面幫你看出來的大組一個學校大校有多少組教學組 客戶組 註冊資訊組小校的話譬如說有些地方小校也有至少三組它會一個學校只能來要一組嗎如果我們一個學校粗估大小也沒有說它每個組都申請到大的不止八組"},{"start":374.179,"end":393.958,"text":"粗估有可能是兩萬六千四百位副組長那這個部分您剛講得很好這個地方我們都知道才化法教育本來就是地方事務可是地方政府有要增聘這些副組長嗎他到底是兼任還是職員專任"},{"start":395.74,"end":415.308,"text":"我們如果要行政專職化的話就要增加專任那你都知道地方政府教育是長期投資地方政府那個首長可能四年就下台了他這個是大家看不到的我們過去處理代理教師就是這樣他就把人事經費就省下來署長在旁邊非常了解因為他去放煙火"},{"start":415.708,"end":431.054,"text":"我可能得到的掌聲更多因為教育是長期投資所以我們很需要教育部所以你今天如果是要仰賴地方政府增聘的話我真的覺得是就是不太可靠也不太可行"},{"start":431.914,"end":447.16,"text":"因為如果教師兼任的話那這個教師可能會減瘦終點耶那學校不就要增聘代理代課教師嗎那不就人力要不足嗎那如果其他教師要來抄終點的話那其實是加重教師荒"},{"start":448.2,"end":466.889,"text":"兼任會這樣那專任誰出錢地方政府過去的記錄不願意增加專職人類學校也都做了很多的討論大概譬如說屬於教學主場這個學校端老師們也會希望說因為老師比較了解教學這個工作所以這個"},{"start":468.03,"end":484.39,"text":"由老師來監視可以但是我們也另外從委員所提的那個概念有一些屬於非教學的譬如說學校的總務 營賽或者我們這一次為什麼優先去支持學校的學務工作是有一些屬於"},{"start":485.191,"end":510.584,"text":"不是教學的我們會優先來指示我是請您關切這個問題國教署端出了一個看起來快速的解方可是我們實質上算一算就是非常不可靠甚至加重教師荒因為你這樣算起來教師荒有一個理由原因是行政不夠專職你增設副組長副組長如果是兼任他就減終點加重教師荒人力更不足所以這個"},{"start":511.684,"end":526.481,"text":"就算是你全國增設兩萬多名只要是兼任的話就不可能解決教師荒專任的話地方政府不會出錢啦我們過去看到他的記錄就是不佳所以我訴求三點第一個評估增設人力"},{"start":527.202,"end":548.59,"text":"是不是能夠由職員專任的可能性第二個了解各縣市政治學校專任職員他有沒有足夠的員額跟經費那如果行政要專職化或者你不要專職化你的解方要務實不是增加教師荒的嚴重性喔所有的評估方案解方都要全面評估審慎研議務實面對"},{"start":551.591,"end":559.381,"text":"我不是覺得國教署不努力而是覺得沒有得到足夠的支持這是一個快速但是已經算下去不能解決的方法"},{"start":560.612,"end":587.933,"text":"好 剛剛也有委員提到漲薪水那您在宗嘉賓委員總質詢的時候終於鬆口調漲終點費我要告訴部長一年多前我在總質詢的時候就告訴大家基本工資漲幅遠大於教師終點費的漲幅那個是我當時製作的圖一年多前就告訴你們了當時部長沒有回應我整體因為當時我們還講了其他的議題我很高興你承諾要調漲終點費"},{"start":590.555,"end":603.385,"text":"但是問題我想先問一下部長目前調漲終點費的進度如何那天您中嘉賓總質詢的時候您承諾的進度如何"},{"start":604.406,"end":628.52,"text":"事實上我想怎麼樣去提升這個老師的一些許多的這個相關的一些待遇讓他能夠安定教學我想我們跟委員的想法都是一致的那當然這裡邊的許多的國民教育裡面的調查中點會也是大家關心但是因為他一定涉及到地方事務所以我們也跟地方在這邊再看怎麼樣建一個"},{"start":629.38,"end":652.281,"text":"最快什麼時候會上路那是10月1號的新聞我們現在目前是有一個初步的一個內部研議的構想但是因為還沒有跟地方有一個根基那下個因為這也涉及到相關的不管是中央或地方預算有進度我們會跟委員立即報告不能給大家一個時間嗎因為那個部分是只有代理教師我看到你那一天的承諾是代理教師的終點費其實"},{"start":654.843,"end":674.599,"text":"最快什麼時候會上路我們現在考慮的終點會是全盤的一個會全盤嗎那我今天就是要跟你講不能夠因為我看那個新聞不能只是代理教師的終點費調整因為以我之前總質詢的表格其實全面來講的話遠低於基本工資調漲的187%國小教師終點費只有漲幅29%"},{"start":680.744,"end":707.246,"text":"國高中教師終點費只有漲5%如果我們算到2010年更早就是前面就是算起的話所以這個部分我的看法就是要全面調漲導師費行政加緊學術研究費等嚴領整體的薪資待遇是不是可以請部長也承諾做一下教師的聘任待遇的跨國比較研究好嗎"},{"start":708.327,"end":724.467,"text":"因为今天教师刚刚有人讲到说教师已经得不到尊重了有研究做清楚的政策的一个决策我觉得那是一个非常好的一个那这个研究跟整体评估多久内可以给本席一个报告所以我想研究它确实是需要一些时间"},{"start":724.807,"end":752.356,"text":"那你要一次调整就要做到好吗对不对我讲我事实上也跟委员报告我们的想法跟委员是一致的那我们当然要从整体的国家的整体的一个各个领域的不同行业上的一个报酬还有以及怎么样去关照老师的一个让他生活跟这个他的一个职业的一个价值感能够凸显这都是我们在努力的那可以给我一个时间吧部长要给我们一个时间啊"},{"start":756.125,"end":783.593,"text":"兩個月夠了吧你可以先初步的研究嗎跟委員報告因為真正要有一個國際比較我認為這個至少要三個月到半年以上才因為就一個專業的研究我相信必須還是要那這樣子好不好您就是兩個月內先給我一個初步的評估最慢半年內給我一個跨國比較然後知道台灣往哪個方向走就待遇提升好嗎"},{"start":784.273,"end":801.273,"text":"因為據說您在總質詢如果你承諾的不只是代理教師的話那大家都非常的期待你有一個方向我想這個問題這麼的急那我們希望這個就算一年之內做不到調薪兩年之內也應該要做出來吧 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您說的是老師用抖音來指導學生喔確實也有老師所以你們有收到這樣的訊息嗎老師用抖音來教學生有收到這樣的訊息 是什麼教育階段高中 大學 小學"},{"start":209.745,"end":217.686,"text":"你們不能沒有細節內容就這樣子在國會殿堂裡面給我們教育人員潑張水啊部長"},{"start":218.891,"end":239.285,"text":"你看你現在事故 結果沒有人上來啊您作為大家長 您這樣子沒有具體的事證要來批評我們教育人員專業專業人員有沒有這樣的事證小學 高中 國中 大學您如果說不出來 您現在要道歉喔"},{"start":240.302,"end":265.087,"text":"這沒有道歉的一個問題所以有沒有這個案件因為全國的學術網路不好意思 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看顏色嗎為什麼16000件的你沒發文為什麼400件的要發文呢"},{"start":427.216,"end":448.201,"text":"是跟委員報告就是有關於小猴就是小猴我現在講這個公文啊你講400多件你發一個文叫全國說要小心怎麼會是這樣子呢我們真的去查啊165就是臉書其他平台好幾倍啊40倍啊部長啊本席多次針對科技教育跟您討論"},{"start":450.581,"end":472.553,"text":"這個21世紀本來就是多元工具 多元科技的時代抖音啦 小紅書啦 臉書 IG Twitter這些都是社群平台每天都有各種訊息流傳 有真有假YT上面也有各種國家的人開的帳號難道教育部要為了禁止特定訊息的傳播把這些平台通通禁掉嗎"},{"start":473.453,"end":493.807,"text":"更何況啊我想部長看一下這段影片啊抖音啊美國總統川普有官方帳號啊還叫大家要上網那是怎麼樣我們學生上課或下課的時候下課的時候看一下美國總統川普練習一下英文不行嗎"},{"start":495.29,"end":523.559,"text":"川普怎麼 中共同路人嗎去抖音散佈假訊息嗎不要這樣一概而論那我們來看嘛這個這幾個字是現在最夯的啦這個學生老師上去休閒的時間下課的時間看一下我們民主之光的質詢影片增進對於政治的理解跟熱情有錯嗎"},{"start":524.932,"end":535.843,"text":"不要去誤解孩子們的這些行動跟行為可不可以做到啊 可不可以做到包容多元到哪裡去了 可以做到嗎"},{"start":537.421,"end":553.917,"text":"其實跟委員報告就是有關於抖音跟小紅書因為基本上他是根據行政院各機關對危害國家資通安全的限制使用原則然後他是因為目前他是大陸的不是啦不是啦"},{"start":555.899,"end":572.75,"text":"不管是哪裡來的產品都有可能有真假訊息嘛這其實就是讓大家能夠有判斷的基準數位素養AI素養其實這是一種非常非常重要的一個過程所以我想不要做這種選擇性的判斷"},{"start":574.963,"end":596.694,"text":"我們還是非常憂心 這個聽過了我們還是非常憂心新死天下最近針對1.3萬名國小五到九年級的學生進行調查九成的學生認識AI75%的人懂得使用AI結果高達42%的學生很少或從未想過網路資訊有假"},{"start":599.69,"end":616.546,"text":"部長 這個調查結果真的讓人很擔憂這跟用什麼平台 不用什麼平台沒有關係禁止學生接觸特定的數位平台或數位工具只會讓學生對於錯誤 錯假資訊的免疫力有可能是直線下降的"},{"start":617.527,"end":633.636,"text":"還有可能要老師去檢查又破壞師生關係希望部長您既然留任了不要隨著特定的政治風向起舞變成一種廉價的政治附庸拿手這樣子大家會覺得這變成一個北罵到底是誰在哪裡勒"},{"start":639.919,"end":647.022,"text":"還沒有這一個成熟的一個過程裡面我們怎麼樣給他一個更適切的一個當然報案委員長的怎麼樣去辨識辨識這些"},{"start":657.157,"end":668.683,"text":"2022年啦 現在已經三年啦你還在什麼不成熟部長你在外的時間對於這個完全就是作為不足嘛我真的要誠心告訴部長啊我們真的是迫在眉睫啦"},{"start":675.886,"end":700.586,"text":"剛宣布的這個Global AI Index三大面向122個指標評測83個國家的AI能力啊美國如果是第一名100分的話台灣排多少部長知不知道啊我告訴部長台灣賣AI全球第一啊用AI全球第21啊日本名列前茅"},{"start":702.423,"end":723.219,"text":"韓國第六 新加坡第三這就是我們台灣在AI的一個狀態我想真的是要跟部長講不只是國中小高中大學全面的AI人才我也要跟您探討新加坡的做法是什麼他還特別重視一個都不能少"},{"start":724.295,"end":750.211,"text":"社會的中間份子40歲以上的持續來佈建部長你應該知道我們有這個終身學習師吧是那我們看了這個預算啊我們看了這個預算啊終身學習師為什麼沒有科技資源沒有科技的教育這一塊為什麼獨露這個部分呢我們40歲以上不終身教育不需要AI不需要做科技教育資源嗎"},{"start":750.911,"end":777.426,"text":"在樂寧社大我們事實上開很多相關的課也希望在樂寧的一個科技方面的科技的沒有的話有沒有補救的措施啊跟我們報告是有的有的學習在社大裡面開開啟多這方面的好相關資料會後提供好不好那我想其實真的一個都不能少全年齡我們希望教育部來評估因為文化部有做過這個文化幣"},{"start":778.467,"end":803.946,"text":"那我们教育部能不能来评估AI币能够全年龄段去发放不同额度的AI币让大家来体验AI的差异来上AI相关的一个普及的课程我想要再次向部长重申我们刚刚提到的新加坡40岁以上的人给予AI科技进修加码学习补助每个月最高可以到台币7万块"},{"start":805.326,"end":833.149,"text":"讓AI人才變成人人都是才啊那看到我們台灣賣AI第一名結果用AI是全球第21名啊這個我們真的是要好好來努力一下那最後因為那個主席已經站起來了最後一個很重要的議題啦我就沒有投影片啦想請教一下部長啊教育部很關心這個財化法對預算的影響那我們仔細看了一下跟這個114年有啦有一個投影片"},{"start":833.689,"end":860.379,"text":"跟114年相比我們發現你們少了160億元那砍在哪裡我看了都心痛砍在2到6歲的15%減了100億砍在失陪教育與藝術教育是怎麼樣我們失陪教育我們藝術教育值得被砍了嗎全數三減那我們看了你們有開14次會議4次溝通會議"},{"start":862.64,"end":875.212,"text":"那有的有共識但是是不是沒有共識現在共識的情況怎麼樣有共識了嗎他們哪些地方要去做有沒有共識了部長14次會議了您不要表情木然啊"},{"start":876.701,"end":891.493,"text":"跟委員報告事實上在這個財化委員會以後我們原來譬如說2到6歲編列這個688億那現在教育部還事實上從國教署還是有600億會補助地方那另外就是說等於地方他承擔了88億類似這樣的"},{"start":893.234,"end":910.523,"text":"那都有共識了沒他們對於這個接下來的規劃你們有相關的交易業務要順利推行啊不可以突然就這樣子地方我們事實上開過許多的一次許多的一個會議也跟地方首長在整個經會上我們當然都有一些保持密切的一些"},{"start":911.563,"end":937.623,"text":"我想部長這本預算書是在您任內編完的部長要負起全責確保各項教育業務要能夠順利推行下去部長可不可以在我們全體國人面前還有我們主席也站起來能不能跟我們一起承諾無論如何教育部一定會確保各項教育業務順利推行窮不能窮窮教育苦不能苦孩子能不能跟我們承諾"},{"start":938.903,"end":955.47,"text":"確保教育政策許多的這個既定的政策能夠落實能夠執行這當然是教育部責務龐大的責任好 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有請鄭部長請鄭部長備詢委員好鄭部長最近辛苦了尤其是這個嚴重教師的不足這件事情那這件事情嚴格講起來只怪教育部好像也不是個辦法但是教育部既然是主管機關所以這個事情還是必須要向教育部長問得清楚"},{"start":32.213,"end":56.619,"text":"部長您在9月25號在中央社的一個發的新聞稿裡面有特地講到你會體恤第一線教育工作者的這個各方面的壓力那我們也必須提到除了我們現在從2024年的這個應該是全國公教工會上面的資料來看那第一名當然是行政工作最重2024年的那個報導那其中有第五名"},{"start":57.819,"end":68.357,"text":"这个有关为什么现在的年轻人不愿意当老师这一块第五名就是现在全国教师觉得很头痛的也就是所谓的申诉制度"},{"start":69.284,"end":97.831,"text":"那我们现在是第五名申诉制度已经变成不是申诉而是滥诉了因为这个本来是利益良善的机制现在变成是说老师很担心他们随时随地会被申诉而学生他们学生也好家长也好甚至有些科技人士也好因为可以匿名的申诉所以使得教师的士气跟教师的不安定感特别严重变成说这实质上是已经影响到"},{"start":98.351,"end":116.257,"text":"未来甚至现在当老师的为人师表的意愿我们必须很正视现在一个蛮荒谬的现实现行的申诉机制启动的频繁程度跟最终确认的为师比例呈现所谓极端的失衡"},{"start":116.977,"end":140.508,"text":"过去一年高达八成的学校曾经启动所谓的校士会议处理申诉但是最终被认定停聘或解聘的严重案件只有6%那想请问部长一个有系统超过九成的案件在投入大量行政跟人力资源进行调查之后居然发现最后没有重大维持那教育部如何去定义这种不成比例的资源浪费呢"},{"start":140.948,"end":166.643,"text":"那这皆是申诉门槛是不是过于低而且还是说整个程序设计存在基本上有缺陷呢谢谢委员看到了问题因为确实当时的这个校室会议的这一个设立它本来是用来处理不适任教师但是以我们目前所有其实只是老师的班级经营或者他的教学他只要有提醒或者"},{"start":167.443,"end":192.598,"text":"同仁或是校长提醒一下或者有一些协助他可能就可以改善的但是现在确实如委员所看到的他大部分都进入到校事会议所以我们现在大概从两个方面来解决第一个就是因为所有的投诉不管匿名或者不匿名的全部都进入到校事会议这不对的"},{"start":193.138,"end":221.912,"text":"我们应该在源头分流真正属于不适应教师的指控的这个部分才进入校事会议刚才委员所提的这个也是我要提这有点像小案大办不觉得吗是我完全同意委员就包含说不具名的滥诉这个我们一定要把它完全的排除掉这个也是我们在即将要提出来的一个修正的一个办法里面我们希望让老师回到他的专业专心"},{"start":222.852,"end":248.855,"text":"來指導學生容或有所學生的輔導或者一句話班級經營他只要有人來提醒他事實上就可以改正的這個不應該進行到校書會我必須這樣子幫軍公校警校這些所謂的我們整個公務系統真的維持整個國家公務系統很重要的人員事實上最高的敬意但是我們也都知道公務人員公務人員四大法則裡面有一塊叫做符合比例原則"},{"start":249.776,"end":269.191,"text":"不只是說他們形式規格要符合比例原則他們受處分也要符合比例原則那我們現在看到這個爛數的狀況就是很明顯的這是並沒有符合比例原則所發生的事情所以導致說我們現在消失會議已經變成小案大辦的時候如何去修改所謂的解聘辦法我覺得"},{"start":269.711,"end":298.66,"text":"我自己个人认为因为我自己也在大学任教20年虽然我只是代课教师刚刚已经有委员质询过了虽然我是兼任助理教授但是我也知道说学校的态度那他们宁可说宁可在程序上面追求完备而直接把规格提到校师会议上面其实这样子部长这样对于一般的从教者就是从事教育的工作者其实是很大的心理上的负担因为"},{"start":299.62,"end":328.437,"text":"我们对于教育者我们有高度的期待尤其现在少子化之外而且现在通常是双薪家庭又少子化每个孩子都是家里面的宝我们对教育者我们有高度的期待尤其是说以前的观念来讲就是把老师看得仅次于家人般重要的尊重的程度但是同样的状况是现在的整个时空背景不同的时候老师现在所获得的尊重"},{"start":329.497,"end":356.128,"text":"遠遠不及以前我的個人感覺是這樣那這個是時代不同是時代的變遷但是老師身為一個教育工作者的基本權益他們也是要被保障的我必須在這邊幫老師們講話的原因說我自己是老師之外而且我也感同身受現在我們國家一些最基礎的基石正在被撼動不只是教育工作者包括一般的司機跟工人都是因為很容易被濫訴而他們不願意"},{"start":357.208,"end":369.729,"text":"投入这个职场而他们不投入职场的结果就是我们国家急需要这方面的人才但是没有人去做这些工作那这方面来讲我觉得教育部真的应该要扮起所谓守民员的角色要保护这些人才啊"},{"start":370.407,"end":396.889,"text":"不是只有說高等教育不是只有教授值得被尊重基礎的老師也值得被尊重而如果家長因為一個不滿意或一個匿名的信過去他就要直接到教室會議變成說他要被檢討他要自己想辦法去自己辯護自己而且這些教室會議裡面的時候根據解聘法第43條被申訴的教師到最後的教評會會議之前才能申請閱覽攸關自身清白的調查報告請問部長"},{"start":399.011,"end":413.748,"text":"为何在至关重要的教师会议审议阶段剥夺教师获取完整资讯以进行有效答辩的基本权利呢教育部这样是不是有所谓违反程序正义中文报告我们一直深信"},{"start":415.219,"end":444.306,"text":"保护儿童的受教权益跟让不适任教师离开校园是没有冲突的它是绝对是可以兼顾的所以委员所看到的那些问题我们在程序上我们内部都已经有一个草案但是部长我也必须这样讲我们在保护儿童受教权的时候如果我们没有对老师对这些专业工作者有足够的尊重那其实最后面就是来的人就是来打工而已"},{"start":445.026,"end":460.821,"text":"那这个心态如果出来的话最后倒霉的还是学生维护儿童的受教权同时怎么样去维护老师的教学所有的价值跟让他能够更安心我想他是没有冲突的我们的想法跟委员的看法是一致的"},{"start":461.081,"end":488.351,"text":"我认为在东方文化尤其在东方文化里面中华文化也好 东方文化也好对老师的尊重是从以前的年代到现在而我们亚洲人的教育程度为什么比欧美人老师说真的偏高也是因为我们尊重专业我们尊重老师从小尊重老师长大之后尊重专业所以我们一般来讲我们亚洲国家的教育程度比较高我们的人才素质也比较好但是这一点我就必须来提出来"},{"start":489.011,"end":517.493,"text":"南韓之前也有一樣的狀況也就是有老師面臨不堪家長濫訴而親身的悲劇之後我們在他們的國會迅速通過所謂的教師權利恢復法案從法律上明確保障教師的正當生活指導權而且對惡意申訴的家長建立問責制度包括罰款跟書面道歉請問部長我們教育部有沒有對南韓這樣的立法模式我們有沒有做出一定程度的官方評估呢"},{"start":518.291,"end":538.943,"text":"我想這個我們來更積極的來進一步了解看怎麼樣能夠結合我們在未來的這個校事會讓它能夠更完整確保老師的一個整個教學跟他的工作的價值跟尊嚴部長 本席今天把這件事情直接攤開在國會殿堂裡面講為了是幫這些老師追求兩個字叫公平"},{"start":539.984,"end":568.122,"text":"没有道理说这个我被申诉了而我如果真的做错事我被申诉了然后我是恶意做这些事情的我是应该被惩罚没有错但是如果是对方是抱着歧视抱着恶意来去针对我的作为而我想做对那这样的话是否要有一个公平的机制假设这个人是恶意的这个毁谤那我还不能保护自己的权益那我当然说我可以去交补习班我可以去交别的地方我大可不用在那受侮辱啊"},{"start":568.982,"end":581.894,"text":"因為我教書是專業啊教書是種專業不要覺得說只是說現在有AI之後什麼事都很方便教書怎麼樣透過教學上面怎麼樣透過言語跟小孩子教一定程度的價值觀跟邏輯思維這個是AI無法教的"},{"start":584.016,"end":610.285,"text":"那如果我們現在不保護這些老師未來我們就沒有人去幫我們把這些正確的價值觀把它傳輸下去這點很重要所以我會希望說我是希望教育部在這一個月之內針對本席提出來的建立申訴分級制度而且還有建立所就是參考南韓國會所過的教師權利恢復法來保障教師的正當生活指導權而且對於說再去遏止在源頭"},{"start":611.065,"end":624.311,"text":"這些惡意濫訴的這些不知道是匿名人士而且這種匿名報信報告者不應該存在這個在我們修訂的辦法我完全同意委員的說法匿名的我們以後不會再處理了"},{"start":624.909,"end":641.763,"text":"就是說這一個以現在來看我們的數據事實上真正到最後因為肖事法然後肖事的這個處理以後這個不適任老師大概只有占2點多%而已所以以這樣來看而且這些我們看到的"},{"start":642.683,"end":658.726,"text":"實際的案例都是具名的更多都是不具名我們認為民主法制就應該把這個爛數不具名不負責任我們某種程度應該先把它排除掉這是我們在新的機制裡邊部長 本席在這邊提出三個改革方向第一個"},{"start":659.307,"end":677.442,"text":"建立所謂的申訴分級跟前端過濾機制第二個保障教師在程序中的資訊獲得權第三個建立所謂濫訴者的問責機制可不可以在一個月之內針對本席剛剛提出的三個方向至少做出研究跟本席報告我想"},{"start":677.822,"end":695.479,"text":"今天在场不只是我想不想葛如荀委员甚至每一个在场教育委员会包括刘书斌老师在场都会觉得说这是对我们基层教育者最基本的保护这点教育部可不可以帮我们当首委员跟委员的这样一个精神我们来跟委员做报告好 谢谢"}]}},{"id":"164235","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164235","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6022c9f6d63255a32bb84008a1f202506c95259d4de0cc175dd201981b308a87dff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"11:43:19 - 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讓孩子有一個乳齡可以補充他對身體的發電是有幫助的你覺得這個政策最好是怎麼停"},{"start":67.659,"end":88.085,"text":"這也是我在認為 跟委員報告 我覺得很可笑的因為在這個政策中 都要保押的推動和保護希望可笑 你有要支持嗎我當然 我是支持的有幾個先生繼續在做現在目前已經有十幾個這個停下來的時候 有很多老師都拍手叫好我來請教就是說"},{"start":97.185,"end":109.109,"text":"今天很多人在探討說老師三張兩張就去幫他倒數甚至從五年來到學校的時候是要老師去幫五年來給孩子吃老師為什麼這個政策聽起來他的拍手比較好心聲很無奈一分錢一分錢"},{"start":121.587,"end":135.802,"text":"我跟政府簽約的時候 我的退休金是多少 結果我們的政府呢 退休金抬到226他說現在沒有人來照吃照吃我小孩 我如果要用心教你 我想你60幾年來做教育的時候 絕對不是這個環境我在讀書的時候 我老師說 趙志修你等我多久就好了 土砂我替你掃"},{"start":145.202,"end":171.309,"text":"老師退學前去掃地 為什麼他覺得有解答 我知不知這孩子有解答我退休 我有保障啊結果這個退休政策 你把人家的退休金貸還不得不起你還叫他就要照顧孩子 照顧家庭 安裝很多雜貨 算了這老師起來 今天如果照顧一個比較雜貨的 雜貨裡面一個不爽快的就幫你倒數倒數啊 你就再搬啊"},{"start":172.288,"end":199.015,"text":"這已經是造成惡性的循環了 保證我相信你對高雄到台北你感受應該比其他人更深了但你今天一做這個保證這位要講一件事情要比較有價值的說真的替這些人講話冬季時光太替尤金的時候我們的總額算是一條七千多億因為那時候想說我們經濟會賣掉所以這位老師您比較委屈的"},{"start":202.95,"end":212.672,"text":"結果經過高檔後,我們的中武省經濟發展現在變三條了你應該在這個議題要多關心一下,本席今天跟你講的要表你發表意見,談這件事情都可能會打翻,也沒意思AI這個東西,台灣已經陷入一個壯強期,我說的確"},{"start":227.031,"end":233.447,"text":"一個基本法出不來全世界AI的產業我們台灣是冥的真貓"},{"start":235.458,"end":262.706,"text":"你知道嗎?我們的産業的出口也好,産業的製作也好結果很多人說AI去衝到什麼人的生意,衝到什麼人的頭腦,衝到什麼人的工作這就是你教育的問題包括你中心教育也好,包括這個AI一定要很重視為什麼我們台灣在使用AI的比率落在20名外為什麼我們的産業的製作是在第一名、第二名"},{"start":263.991,"end":283.236,"text":"我們會落差這麼大,沒有對教育開始,包括孩子要生一個,不要說算了,對這個平台的立場,進入平台去找找他的地位,跟用AI化作他的工具,提升個人、人類的地位,這是一個一念之差而已。"},{"start":284.537,"end":286.642,"text":"你用一個窮逢的心理 AI 出來歐巴桑會沒頭腦 世王會沒頭腦 彭佩娜沒頭腦大家都沒頭腦 老師也沒頭腦不是這樣"},{"start":295.242,"end":309.313,"text":"所以對教育要勇敢打出第一步強加大幅度的 強加對AI的認知 把AI當作是工具提升我們人類的地位 將來我們能夠跟這個機器人電腦繼續競爭這樣不比較對 為什麼社會變成大家看講到AI專門民了 一個正面 一個負面 兩極化 這嚴重為什麼"},{"start":322.632,"end":339.617,"text":"基本上我引動委員所講的說法就是說這個科技的快速發展不是因為這樣我們就沒辦法了我們要怎麼利用這個科技給我們的大陸但是你現在夠又不足了 很多人變成這樣了有啦 我們現在也向委員報告我們在這個AI專門維修開始上包括老師 我也跟他們說我們一年多用幾千的 這樣是不夠的"},{"start":347.239,"end":359.648,"text":"老師的真能我們應該要數以萬計要交換這個速度就是說我們現在要做目標跟委員所想的事是相同的陰性逐一跟我說 你的大娘你就是所有教育教育的人"},{"start":361.618,"end":377.623,"text":"你身體力行之後所有的人就用你做計標了這是長期不是叫你要做老但是你長期這個風氣起來之後會普遍包括總統 行政委員包括所有台北省下的人"},{"start":379.371,"end":397.639,"text":"應該把對著AI溫馨的兇器的心理徹底擺渡這樣我們很快就跟我們的商業一樣在使用AI跟隱密AI這個領域就對了我們很快就跳到世界的三面來因為我們有很好的條件嘛但是你們的採購很多對國防、溝通、教育的採購我告訴你都比人家貴很多啦這個你來補要檢討一下這個我來檢討我請教你齁這個災危發"},{"start":409.076,"end":414.72,"text":"你們對著台南市,國立的國中節,有多久你知道,我們台南市?沒關係,應該有22天啦,22天,這麼隆重耶,現在在你的手裡,一天有算是多少?"},{"start":428.276,"end":430.438,"text":"一間學校的預算1億到3億 公科學校會接近3億來"},{"start":445.186,"end":458.562,"text":"財委法已經通過了 行政委員會準備要跟地方政府來發計劃就是說這錢要怎麼分你敢有幾位跟這22間的國立的國中職設定的台南市政府 有沒有不可能沒有 你們內部都跟我說了"},{"start":466.099,"end":484.053,"text":"跟委員報告是有的 一起在進行 那最近也會進行台南官司合併的時候是專台灣災情最困難的22名到23名兩個爛兄爛弟合併 那時候我就坐在那裡等所以羅總統身為第一任的台南市長的時候就批評一天就不給你接了那時候我也支持 因為接了台南市要倒啊你現在都要等到完啊不然這個災害發台南市會說不公平啊等下來 你政府要補助多少"},{"start":496.912,"end":526.227,"text":"你告訴我 他沒有什麼可能你說要賺了 你一定要給我們算好所以接近40億左右沒有啦 左右是左到右是左還是右啊40億往上往上 是你說的很不合理 錢的事情 親兄弟明算帳因為他有一些細算 除了人事經費還要算到一些部署案40億是你要補助完就對了補助台南市 所以看財化法完全沒有關係說得好喔"},{"start":527.574,"end":541.488,"text":"像現在我們財務的法 這裡要怎麼訂的錢這個40億是都沒有管的 不知道來的喔 對不對就是像前面的三個縣市一樣 那個是按照98年的要求請抱歉 你說的96%嘛 對不對 台南市的"},{"start":547.165,"end":557.834,"text":"到時候都一樣 因為這三個縣市收的時候新北市是92%所以差4% 我們給他5500萬 類似這樣台中市是96%感謝 本席幫你說明一下 台南市冬季時期不應該合併的情形 要用文化合併"},{"start":572.617,"end":590.624,"text":"是在兩個官司 台南市跟台南官司 災情最困難的時候來合併結果這大中間 民進黨公眾被侵染 已經執政高端了對台南的災情沒幫忙 現在一個財委發通過以後說 哇 這樣對台南市沒公平"},{"start":591.892,"end":616.85,"text":"假如一百六十三億我們有什麼不公平 好啦 你如果說這個學校要賺回來給台南市接受啦 編制啦本身希望你做一個精神 在一個月內 因為這是明年的事情一個月內 我希望你把這裡所有國立的高中這個學校的武聖名聲 跟二百台南市廖豪財政的幾位上來本身的辦公室 這樣我回答好嗎好 好 感謝你"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":681,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（11時43分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：部長你好！請教你離開教職多久了？"],["鄭部長英耀：離開教授？"],["謝委員龍介：離開教職多久了？"],["鄭部長英耀：哦！教職，離開教職將近1年5個月。"],["謝委員龍介：1年5個月，那你最早是哪一年在國小任教？"],["鄭部長英耀：民國65年。"],["謝委員龍介：民國65年，你對「班班有鮮奶」這個政策有何感想？"],["鄭部長英耀：憑良心來講，讓孩子可以補充牛奶，這對他們的身體發展是有幫助的。"],["謝委員龍介：那你知道為什麼最後這個政策後停止了？"],["鄭部長英耀：憑良心講，我要跟委員報告，我也覺得很可惜，因為這個政策在農業部……"],["謝委員龍介：可惜！"],["鄭部長英耀：因為這個政策在農業部還沒有和教育部推動和合作時……"],["謝委員龍介：可惜！那你要不要支持？"],["鄭部長英耀：我當時是支持的。"],["謝委員龍介：其實有幾個縣市還繼續在做。"],["鄭部長英耀：目前已經有十……"],["謝委員龍介：這個政策停止之後，有很多老師都拍手叫好。我要請教你的是，今天有很多人跟你探討老師三天兩頭就被人家投訴，甚至當牛奶送到學校的時候，是老師去搬牛奶來給孩子們喝。為什麼這個政策停止之後老師會拍手叫好？他們的心聲很無奈，一分錢一分貨，我和政府簽約的時候，我的退休金是多少？結果我們政府把我的退休金砍得「零零落落」的，他說不然現在大家照吃照打，如果要我用心的教導孩子，我想你民國六十幾年來擔任教職時絕對不是這種環境。","我讀書的時候，我們老師是怎樣？早自修時學生就坐在那邊讀書就好，地我替你掃，老師替學生掃地，為什麼？因為他覺得值得，因為栽培這些孩子有價值，我退休後有保障，結果一個退休政策，你把人家的退休金砍得不像樣，你還叫他要把孩子教育得很傑出。接下來，今天如果有一個孩子比較傑出，但10個學生裡面有一個不高興，他就投訴你，投訴後你們還要辦他，這已經造成惡性循環了。部長，我相信你從小學教到大學，你的感受應該比其他人還要更深，你今天擔任部長這個職位，要講一些真話，要有guts一點，說真的，要替這些人講話。","當初你們砍人家的退休金時，我們的總預算是一兆七千多億元，因為那個時候我們以為經濟會變壞，所以你們這些老師就委屈一點，結果經過9年之後，我們的總預算、經濟都發展起來了，我們現在的總預算變成3兆元。這個議題你應該要多關心一點，本席今天就這樣告訴你，如果要逼你發表意見，和執政黨可能會不一樣，那也沒有意思。","AI這個東西臺灣已經陷入撞牆期，我說給你聽，一個基本法都弄不出來，全世界的AI產業臺灣名列前茅，你知道嗎？我們的產業出口也好、產業製作也好，結果很多人都說AI會去搶到誰的生意、誰的工作、什麼人的工作？這就是你們教育的問題，包括你們的終生教育也好，一定要很重視這個AI。為什麼我們臺灣使用AI的比例會落到20名之外？為什麼我們的產業製作是第一名、第二名，為什麼會落差這麼大？不從教育開始，包括孩子要玩一個……不要說玩啦！就從平臺進去，進去平臺找尋他的智慧，把AI化做他的工具，提升個人的能力地位，這只是一念之差而已，你用恐慌的心態說如果AI出來，歐巴桑會沒有工作、洗碗的會沒有工作、端盤子的會沒有工作，大家都沒有工作，老師也沒有工作，是這樣嗎？不是這樣啊！所以教育要勇敢的踏出第一步，要大幅度的增加對AI的認知，要把AI當做工具，提升人類的智慧，將來我們還可以和這些機器人、電腦繼續競爭，這樣才對。","為什麼社會上會變成大家一談到AI就有兩面的意見？一個是正面、一個是負面，兩極化得這麼嚴重，為什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，我認同委員的說法，就是說，科技快速的發展，我們不會因為這樣而沒有工作，我們要如何利用這個科技讓我們的……"],["謝委員龍介：但是你們現在教育不足，很多人都變成這個樣子。"],["鄭部長英耀：有啦！跟委員報告，現在小學已經全面的在上AI課程，包括老師，我也有跟他們說，一年只培養幾千個人是不夠的，老師的增能我們應該要數以萬計，要加快這個速度，也就是說，我們現在要做的目標跟委員所想的是一樣的。"],["謝委員龍介：你要以身做則，我要說，你要帶領，你是教育界的領頭羊，你身體力行之後，所有的人就會以你為指標，這不是叫你要很厲害，但是你帶領這個風氣起來之後就會變得很普遍，包括總統、行政院長和檯面上的這些人，應該要把對AI的那個隱性的恐懼心理澈底排除，這樣很快就會跟我們的產業一樣，在使用AI跟領導AI的領域我們很快就跳入世界，因為我們有很好的條件，但是你們的採購比如對國防、交通、教育這些，我告訴你，都比別人貴很多，這點你們內部要檢討一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：這點我們會來檢討。"],["謝委員龍介：我請教你，有關財劃法，你們知不知道臺南市各國立高中職有幾間？應該有22間。請問在你手中這部分一年的預算有多少？你不知道沒關係，去查一下。"],["彭署長富源：一間學校大概1億元到3億元，如果是工科學校的話就比較高。"],["謝委員龍介：你說多少？"],["彭署長富源：一間學校的預算是1億元到3億元，工科學校會接近3億元。"],["謝委員龍介：財劃法已經通過了，行政院長準備要跟地方政府划拳，就是這些錢要怎麼分。你們有沒有規劃把這22間國立高中職推回給臺南市政府？有沒有？不可能沒有，你們內部都跟我說了。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，是有的，最近正在進行這件事。"],["謝委員龍介：臺南縣市合併的時候，正位列全臺灣財政最困難的第22名和第23名，兩個難兄難弟合併，那時候我就在「剉咧等」，賴總統身為第一任臺南市長的時候就翻臉，一間都不接，那時候我也支持，因為如果接受了，臺南市就要倒了，可是現在你們卻要丟給我們，難怪臺南市說這個財劃法不公平。你們丟下來的話要補助多少經費，你們算過嗎？既然說要丟下來，一定會把經費算好嘛！難道沒有嗎？"],["彭署長富源：接近40億元左右。"],["謝委員龍介：不是嘛！左右到底是左還是右？"],["彭署長富源：40億元往上。"],["謝委員龍介：往上？你講話真的很不乾脆耶！錢的事情要親兄弟明算帳。"],["彭署長富源：因為還要有一些細算，除了人事經費，還要算到一些補助案。"],["謝委員龍介：這40億元是給我們的補助就對了，是補助臺南市的，所以跟財劃法完全無關？要講好噢！現在我們財劃法要怎麼分配都跟這40億元無關，是不在內的噢，是吧？"],["彭署長富源：就是像前面3個縣市一樣，那個是按照98年的要求……"],["謝委員龍介：新北市是百分之九十六嘛！對不對？"],["彭署長富源：對，人事費的部分。"],["謝委員龍介：臺南市呢？"],["彭署長富源：到時候都一樣。"],["謝委員龍介：一樣是百分之九十六？"],["彭署長富源：因為這3個縣市收的時候，新北市是百分之九十二，差百分之四，我們給他5,500萬元，類似這樣；臺中市是百分之九十六。"],["謝委員龍介：對等補助就對了，是不是？"],["彭署長富源：是。"],["謝委員龍介：本席要跟你說明一下，臺南市當時是在不應該合併的情形下用文化合併，是在兩個縣市──臺南市跟臺南縣財政最困難的時候合併。這段期間，民進黨說重北輕南，可是已經執政9年了，對臺南的財政沒有幫忙，現在財劃法通過之後又說這樣對臺南市不公平，多163億元，哪有什麼不公平？如果這些學校真的要丟給臺南市接收，本席希望要精算，因為這是明年的事情，我希望你們在一個月內把所有國立高中職的預算明細以及劃入臺南市之後的財政規劃送到本席辦公室，能做到嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["謝委員龍介：感謝你！"],["主席：感謝龍介仙的質詢，我們謝謝部長。","現在請陳秀寳召委進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6022c9f6d63255a3eac3df347f4160636c95259d4de0cc175dd201981b308a87dff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:29:27 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"whisperx":[{"start":6.263,"end":11.686,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請教育部部長有請鄭部長委員好部長早安 我今天就剛剛其實這個萬美玲委員她提到要跟這個國防部講一下那個水的問題那天其實在審特別預算的時候其實我人也在場但是呢這個所謂的常備用水"},{"start":34.44,"end":50.379,"text":"軍備用的儲水跟一般的礦泉水看似都是水但是其實這個魔鬼藏在細節當中那我先呼應一下這個其實也不用跟國防部說因為國防部講的這個戰備的用水一瓶120元其實是普遍"},{"start":50.959,"end":72.416,"text":"在军事专家眼中它的市价就是这么高为什么因为五年以上的保存水它的保存期限比较久瓶身加厚为了要降低透氧率生产的成本是比较高的同时这个水还经过三次的RO逆渗透瓶口在封盖之前还有臭氧杀菌整瓶水要无菌的状态"},{"start":73.257,"end":93.288,"text":"所以這個是必須要在國防部在這次的特別預算當中有特別編列這樣子的預算這也是因應我們的國防的需求軍事戰備用水是的確需要的在這裡希望有解決這個萬美玲委員她的一些疑問好那部長"},{"start":94.148,"end":121.886,"text":"我想這個校事會議您還記得嗎5月28號的時候其實我是委員會當中我是第一個提出來的委員那當初其實我們因為校事會議引起在學校端很多老師他們的寒蟬效應那親師的溝通出現了一些裂痕那這是我們當時提醒教育部要注意的那麼在8月7號的時候我在向教育部再次提及了五大的一個建議那我想這個五大的建議包含"},{"start":123.373,"end":148.868,"text":"建立這個分級的一個處理提高校事會議的啟動的一個門檻再來第二點就是要保障老師知情跟答辯權再來第三要健全調查委員的選任跟培訓的制度這個是人才庫的部分再來第四就是我們要有第三方的公正公平的審議的單位再來第五點就是我們要如何建立這些曾經被校事會議調查過後"},{"start":150.649,"end":174.291,"text":"但是其實也查無實證或者是最後其實以所謂的像法官一樣不提訴這樣子的老師他怎麼樣來恢復他的名譽在心理層面跟他的整個所有的法律的支持我們要怎麼樣來做實質上的一個幫助這些老師們我想我提出了這五大要點我們也很高興就是在9月16號的時候我們的鄭部長您也承諾了"},{"start":174.932,"end":198.425,"text":"那在年底之前我們的消失會議有很大的改善的一個空間那調整的一個空間那同時您也說要刪除這個現行匿名檢舉單數的一個規定那我想這個部分來講其實對於消失會議來講我們是有往正向的方向去走但是我們其實最重要的就是希望能夠減少更多的衝突那麼減少爛訴"},{"start":200.206,"end":218.007,"text":"我想初步的溝通我們也得到了一些正面的回應同時也符合教師們的期待這是我們最希望能夠看到的但是在大部分的細節的部分我想可能還不是那麼的清楚跟明瞭在這裡我想要再次的請教部長"},{"start":219.489,"end":244.208,"text":"就是在事前我們剛剛有講要分流不要那麼急就把這被投訴的老師直接送到所謂的這個校事會議當中就是那個門檻要稍微提高但是在這個進入校事會議之前我們的行政務團親師的溝通那不管這個結果成功與否那後續應該怎麼處置有沒有一個所謂的一致性的SOP的一個處置的方式"},{"start":244.668,"end":265.475,"text":"或者是還是依照各校他自己的一個方式處理但是如果這個結果比方說家長不夠滿意他甚至要再回頭重複的申訴這有可能也會造成所謂的行政耗損這樣子的一個狀況之下我們可不可以在這個部分也提出改善的方針"},{"start":266.115,"end":281.051,"text":"那第二點我想問的就是當承辦人員他沒有受訓或承辦過所謂的重大情節的案件他影響到了所謂的這個調查的一個結果那這個部分我們有沒有追責的一個機制那第三點我想要問的就是"},{"start":282.116,"end":310.704,"text":"目前最大的一個問題是沒有一個先篩選的制度任何的檢舉都可能會進到所謂的校事會議那基於學校本身他是當事人他又有可能成為所謂的調查的單位我們真的不免擔心球員兼裁判在整個所有的所謂的部長你可能會說會有所謂的複查的一個機制但是這個複查的機制如果還是有體系內的人在審"},{"start":311.744,"end":325.907,"text":"那麼難免在有權力結構的校園當中那這個權力結構的環境裡頭副省的制度本身就缺乏被信任的空間這第三點我們怎麼樣來克服請教一下部長"},{"start":326.55,"end":346.817,"text":"那謝謝委員的一個提醒確實委員當時的一個對校事會議的一個制度上的一些期待我們確實也在分區座談裡面委員對問題的掌握是非常的精準的所以我們大概整個陳委員所提我們怎麼樣去分流行政務談其實是溝通這些的"},{"start":347.637,"end":367.96,"text":"我们在未来的新的办法我们会有一些包含例证的一些提示让第一线上的一些学校在整个在运作里边能够有一些实例的一些参考跟有一些依循的这我们都会来做包含刚才委员提到说当一个老师被误告然后到最后"},{"start":368.661,"end":389.039,"text":"甚至我們講說法院或者校會判他這個不成立也結案了那對於老師所遭受的權益上的一些受損我們只會去回憶 回復他這個我們大概都是朝這個方向因為自從有效式會議以來我們知道其實在所有的769件當中目前只有成案的只有3.38%是"},{"start":391.061,"end":416.039,"text":"所以相對的來講就是這些其實教師會議都是成本喔都是費用喔所以我們這個部分包含老師我們就第一個要杜絕這個爛數第二個就是對老師遭受到不名譽的一個指控然後沒有成立的時候所造成的一些甚至在我們要讓他有回復名譽的機制啦我們都有一套的機制希望能夠回復到他原來的一個"},{"start":416.579,"end":441.918,"text":"如果有家長對於這個調查的結果是不滿意的他如果要重複的這個再申請避免重複的申訴這個部分我們可以避免嗎因為我們如果沒有新的市政我們基本上就列入不受理也有這樣的一個機制出來好那我想呢就是不管是在行政務談那親事溝通我們要有一個一致性的SOP因為包含"},{"start":442.378,"end":465.043,"text":"包含我們法院也有一些實際的一個判例對學生 誣告老師法院也做成實際的這個裁判的一個動作我們希望累積有更多的一個案例讓學校在裡面對學生的宣導或者對家長或者學校裡面的運作有一些更多的一些彼此在一個民主法治的社會裡面有一個更適宜的一個"},{"start":465.763,"end":493.273,"text":"我想其实我们都不希望造成学校行政人力或者是教师他们在教学在被调查的期间这一两个月当中他们可能一方面要准备教材二方面要应付所谓的校师会议这样子的调查造成他们其实身心俱疲那我想这影响到的还是学生们受教的一个权益我们还是让教学回归专业让学校能够变成更良善的一个我完全认同委员的一个"},{"start":493.553,"end":514.893,"text":"好 那么往这个方向走那我想校师会议有很多细腻的部分很多细节的部分我们可能再找时间再来好好地沟通跟讨论好 那第二个我想呢就是在昨天其实我们也跟培育委员特别有开了一个座谈会那也就是相对的来讲我们非常关心所谓的特教生他们的一些权益的一些问题了"},{"start":515.433,"end":539.564,"text":"那我想給特教生一個比較完整的運動學習的一個環境那教育部跟國教署其實近幾年來也都非常非常的重視也投入了相當的的心力那展現了我們的政府對所謂的生長生的這個權益的一個正式的一個問題但是隨著體育署升格為運動部那接著下來我們過去體育署所負責的不管是他的課程的設計"},{"start":541.005,"end":560.367,"text":"師資的培育或者是特教生的支持現在有沒有明確承接的單位如果沒有明確承接的單位我們也很擔心在校園當中尤其是高中以下他們是有體育課的但是他們的權益到底是誰來接手會不會因為我們的組織改革了"},{"start":560.928,"end":579.57,"text":"我们可能这些所谓的特教生他们的适应体育的这个部分变成被边缘化了反而他们的权益被忽视了这个部分我们是不是也请教育部这边来回应一下对委员关心我们特殊教育这一个对象的学生在整个视讯体育事实上运动部"},{"start":580.311,"end":597.912,"text":"有私信體育師我想這一個對銜接這一個我們這個特殊教育的學生我們在當然未來是一定是跨部會合作的那另外也跟我們報告對特殊教育的一個學生我們本來就有一個IEP的這樣的一個個別化的"},{"start":598.7,"end":614.57,"text":"的一個教學計畫那個別化的教學計畫除了有特教老師有學科老師他還有特別為這一個學生所這一個個別化的一個教育的這個體育的這樣一個訓練但是因為現在我們知道這個適應體育它有分課程內"},{"start":615.59,"end":638.34,"text":"跟課程外這兩塊的業務是被切割的喔那這兩塊的業務現在到底是由哪一個單位接手課程內的部分特教學生一定當然是教育部要優先但屬於教育專業私信這一個部分我們當然也跟運動部會合作但教育部對銜接這個接觸每一個特殊教育的學生我想我們則後旁待"},{"start":638.9,"end":658.556,"text":"這個是12年以下也就是高中以下我們有體育班我們體育課那麼他們還是原班在就是在原班上課對於所謂的這個特教生來說但是如果到了大專院校的階段我們怎麼樣來給他們具體的課程跟教學的支持這個部分有考慮嗎因為到了大專以上喔"},{"start":660.042,"end":679.727,"text":"因為剛剛講的其實都是我們的12年國教以下對不對那大專以上的怎麼辦跟委員說明我們的特教中層計畫裡面的這些措施運動部成立之後他會接手體育署原本在做的工作有具體的時程嗎有有有有他們委託了台師大有成立的這個適應體育的那個"},{"start":682.228,"end":708.156,"text":"所以有具体的时程跟方式是的那事后可以提供给我们办公室吗因为其实我们最担心的就是我们的适应体育其实应该要放在非常重要的位置上不管我们的这个运动部当然运动部成立是一个好事是大家都很期待的这代表我们其实是很关心全民运动但是我们也担心就是所谓的这些特效生他们的一些权益被受损了那这个部分事后再提供给我们办公室可以吗"},{"start":708.676,"end":725.608,"text":"沒問題好那第三個問題其實今天不要讓這個舒冰主席站那麼久我快速我一點點就好了那這個去年其實我們一直在我的辦公室一直在關心所謂特交助理員他們的薪資待遇那我想這個教育部也聽取了我們的意見"},{"start":726.408,"end":749.182,"text":"那在這個特教教師助理員的部分我們可以來調整他們加薪的條件同時呢這個教育部也承諾可以回溯到這個113年的8月1號開始生效那這點其實我們非常的感恩也非常的開心教育部真的聽到了但是還是有特教助理員向我們來反映學生助理員已經獲得了全國統一的加薪"},{"start":749.582,"end":766.461,"text":"但是教師助理員的待遇因為現在地方政府他們的財政狀況不一政策上也有差異所以沒有辦法一致就有這樣子的這個特交助理員他告訴我說雖然名為加薪但是我的時數被減了"},{"start":768.243,"end":784.258,"text":"我的時數被減了我的工資相對來講被變相的減薪這個部分我們怎麼樣來建立讓他們整個所有的這些助理員他們的保障能夠跟全國一致這個部分我們有沒有解方"},{"start":785.865,"end":813.49,"text":"我想這個我們當然希望說所有的這個教師助理員學生助理員的薪水能夠受到一定的一個保障那如果我們現在會後我們來收集各縣市在實際的情況怎麼樣然後我們來看怎麼樣來協助讓這些的助理員的一個薪資所以快速的盤點什麼時間點之前可以盤點結束然後由統一的一個月"},{"start":815.41,"end":824.929,"text":"好好謝謝部長的回應好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝疫情委員的質詢那官員請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":631,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時29分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長。"],["主席：有請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長，早安！我今天要就剛剛萬美玲委員提到，他要跟國防部講一下的那個水的問題，其實那天在審特別預算的時候我人也在場，所謂的常備用水、軍備用的儲水，它跟一般的礦泉水看似都是水，但是魔鬼藏在細節裡。我先呼應一下，其實這個也不用跟國防部說，因為國防部講的這個戰備用水一瓶120元，其實這個普遍在軍事專家的眼中，它的市價就是這麼高，為什麼？因為5年以上的保存水，它的保存期限比較久，瓶身加厚，為了降低透氧率，生產的成本比較高。同時，這個水還經過3次的RO逆滲透，瓶口在封蓋之前還有臭氧殺菌，整瓶水都要是無菌的狀態，所以這個預算必須要在國防部這一次的特別預算中特別編列，這也是因應我們的國防需求，軍事戰備用水的確是需要的，我在這裡希望有解決萬美玲委員的疑問。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的指導。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，部長，你還記得校事會議嗎？其實5月28日的時候，我是委員會中第一個提出來的委員，當初校事會議在學校端引起很多老師的寒蟬效應，親師間的溝通出現了一些裂痕，這是我們當時提醒教育部要注意的。8月7日我再次向教育部提及五大建議，我想，這五大建議包含，第一點：建立分級處理，提高校事會議啟動的門檻。第二點：要保障老師知情跟答辯權。第三點：要建全調查委員的選任跟培訓制度，甚至是人才庫的部分。第四點：我們要有第三方公正、公平的審議單位。第五點：我們要如何建立這些曾經被校事會議調查過後，但是也查無實證，就像法官判決不起訴一樣，像這樣的老師要怎麼樣回復他的名譽？在他的心裡層面跟所有的法律支持，我們要怎麼樣實質的幫助這些老師們？對於我所提出的這五大要點，我們也很高興在9月16日的時候，鄭部長也承諾了，年底之前我們的校事會議會有很大的改善空間和調整的空間。","同時，你也說要刪除現行匿名檢舉但書的規定，我想就這個部分來講、就校事會議來講，我們是有往正向的方向去走。但是最重要的，我們希望能夠減少更多的衝突和濫訴。我想這個初步的溝通我們也得到了一些正面的回應，同時也符合教師們的期待，這是我們最希望能夠看到的。但是細節的部分，我想可能還不是那麼的清楚跟明瞭，所以我在這裡要再次的請教部長，我們剛剛有講事前要分流，就是不要那麼的急，把被投訴的老師直接送到所謂的校事會議中，就是那個門檻要稍微提高，但是在進入校事會議之前，我們的行政晤談、親師溝通，不管這個結果成功與否，後續應該怎麼處置，有沒有一個一致性的SOP處置方式，或者還是依照各校自己的方式去處理？但是如果這個結果，比方說：家長不夠滿意，他甚至要再回頭重覆一直申訴，這有可能也會造成行政耗損，在這樣的狀況下，我們可不可以針對這個部分也提出改善的方針？","第二點我想要問的就是，當承辦人未經受訓或是沒有承辦過所謂的重大情節案件時，他會影響到所謂的調查結果，這個部分我們有沒有追責的機制？","第三點我想要問的就是，目前最大的問題是沒有一個先篩選的制度，任何的檢舉都有可能會進到校事會議。基於學校本身就是當事人，它又有可能會成為所謂的調查單位，我們真的不免擔心球員兼裁判。部長，你可能會說會有複查機制，但是這個複查機制如果還是由體系內的人在審，那麼難免在這個有權力結構的校園中，在這個權力結構的環境裡頭，複審的制度本身就缺乏被信任的空間，這個第三點我們要怎麼樣來克服？請教一下部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，委員當時對校事會議制度上的期待，我們確實也在分區座談裡面……委員對問題的掌握非常精準，誠如委員所提的，我們要怎麼樣去分流、行政晤談、親師溝通？未來新的辦法會包含例證的提示，讓第一線的學校在運作上能夠有一些實例的參考跟依循，這個我們都會來做。包含委員剛才提到的，當一個老師被誣告，然後到最後，就像我們講的法院或是校事會議判他不成立，也結案了，那對於老師權益上所遭受的損害，我們要怎麼樣去回應和回復？我們會朝這個方向。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為自從有校事會議以來，我們都知道，其實在這769件中，目前成案的只有3.38%。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以相對來講，其實校事會議都是有成本和費用的哦。"],["鄭部長英耀：所以這個部分，包含老師，第一個，我們要杜絕濫訴。第二個，對於老師遭受到不名譽的指控，然後沒有成立時所造成的一些損失，甚至在薪水……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們要讓他們有回復名譽的機制。"],["鄭部長英耀：這個我們都有一套機制，我們希望能夠回復他原來、既有的權益。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，如果有家長對這個調查結果不滿意，他要重覆的申訴，我們要如何避免他重覆申訴？這個時候我們可以避免嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：如果沒有新的事證，基本上，我們就會列為不受理，我們會有這樣的機制。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我想不管是行政晤談、親師溝通，我們要有一個一致性的SOP，因為……"],["鄭部長英耀：包含法院也有一些實際的判例，對於學生誣告老師，法院也有作成實際的裁罰動作。我們希望能夠累積更多的案例，讓學校在對學生的宣導或是對家長、或是校園裡的運作，希望彼此可以在民主法治的社會裡面，學校可以有一個更適宜的……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，其實我們都不希望造成學校行政人力或是教師在教學及在被調查的期間，在這一、二個月中，他們可能一方面要準備教材，二方面要應付校事會議這樣子的調查，這會造成他們身心俱疲，我想這影響到的還是孩子們的受教權益。我們還是讓教學回歸專業，讓學校能夠變成更良善的親師……"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全認同委員的觀點。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，那麼就往這個方向走，我想校事會議還有很多細膩的部分、細節的部分，我們可能再找時間好好的溝通跟討論。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：第二個，其實昨天我們也跟培瑜委員特別召開座談會，也就是相對來講，我們非常關心特教生的權益問題，我想給特教生一個比較完整的運動學習環境。其實教育部跟國教署近幾年來也都非常非常的重視，也投入了相當多的心力，展現我們政府正視身障生的權益問題，但是隨著體育署升格為運動部，接下來，過去體育署所負責的，不管是課程的設計、師資的培育，或者是特教生的支持，現在有沒有明確的承接單位？如果沒有明確的承接單位，我們也很擔心在校園當中，尤其是高中以下，因為他們是有體育課的，但是他們的權益到底是誰來接手？會不會因為我們的組織改革了，這些特教生適應體育的這個部分就被邊緣化了，他們的權益反而被忽視了？這個部分是不是也請教育部這邊回應一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心特殊教育的學生，在整個適應體育上，運動部有適應體育司，我想這個對於銜接特殊教育的學生，當然，未來這個一定是跨部會合作。另外也跟委員報告，對於特殊教育的學生，我們本來就有一個IEP、個別化的教學計畫。個別化的教學計畫除了有特教老師、學科老師，它還有特別的為這個學生設計的個別化體育訓練課程。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我們現在都知道，這個適應體育有分課程內跟課程外，這兩塊的業務是被切割的哦！現在這兩塊的業務到底是由哪一個單位來接手課程內的部分？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，在IEP裡面，這個特教學生當然是教育部要優先，但是屬於教育專業、適性的這個部分，我們當然也會跟運動部合作。教育部對於銜接、接住每一個特殊教育的學生，我想我們責無旁貸。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這個是12年以下，也就是高中以下有體育課，他們還是在原班上課，對於所謂的特教生來說……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會針對每一個學生做不同的……"],["郭委員昱晴：但是到了大專院校的階段，我們要怎麼樣給他們具體的課程跟教學的支持，這個部分有考慮嗎？因為到了大專以上哦！因為剛剛講的都是12年國教以下，對不對？那大專以上的怎麼辦？"],["吳司長林輝：跟委員說明，特教中長程計畫裡面的這些措施，運動部成立之後，它會接手體育署原本就在做的工作。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，有具體的時程嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：有、有，他們有委託臺師大成立適應體育的……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以有具體的時程跟方式？"],["吳司長林輝：是的。"],["郭委員昱晴：那事後可以提供給我的辦公室嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：好，沒問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我們最擔心的就是，我們的適應體育其實應該是要放在非常重要的位置上。"],["吳司長林輝：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：不管是我們的運動部，當然，運動部成立是一件好事，是大家都很期待的，這也代表我們都很關心全民運動，但是我們也擔心這些所謂的特教生的權益受損了。這個部分事後再提供給我的辦公室，可以嗎？"],["吳司長林輝：好，沒問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：第三個問題……今天不要讓書彬主席站那麼久，我快速，再給我一點點時間就好了。其實去年我的辦公室就有一直在關心特教助理員的薪資待遇，我想教育部也聽取了我們的意見，在特教助理員的部分，我們可以來調整他們的加薪條件，同時，教育部也承諾可以回溯到113年8月1日開始生效，這點我們非常的感恩，也非常的開心教育部真的聽到了。但是還是有特教助理員向我們反映，學生助理員已經獲得了全國統一的加薪，但是教師助理員的待遇因為現在地方政府的財政狀況不一，政策上也有所差異，所以沒有辦法一致。就有特教助理員告訴我說，雖然名為加薪，但是他的時數被減了，他的工資相對來講被變相減薪。這個部分我們要怎麼樣來建立，讓所有助理員的保障能夠全國一致？這個部分我們有沒有解方？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當然希望所有的教師助理員、學生助理員的薪水能夠受到一定的保障，會後我們會來蒐集各縣市的實際情況，我們再看要怎麼樣來協助，讓這些助理員的薪資能夠一致。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以快速的盤點，什麼時間點之前可以盤點結束，然後有統一的……"],["鄭部長英耀：1個月內我們跟委員報告。"],["郭委員昱晴：1個月內，好，謝謝部長的回應。謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員指正。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝昱晴委員的質詢。官員請回座。","現在請謝龍介委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db687a98d6a65f2b00a6c95259d4de0cc173471e8ca08e6d68ea4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"13:16:34 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有請我們鄭部長 高教師 廖市長請部長跟高教師委員好部長好部長有沒有去過屏東科技大學屏東科技大學對 屏科大你有去過嗎有啊 有啊 去過了這個校園很廣 環境很優美是但部長知道最近屏科大發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":31.321,"end":52.188,"text":"一天內兩個學生在學校裡面車禍身亡兩個年輕生命不見了我想這是非常嚴重的事情那很遺憾的到目前為止對於教育部也好還有品科大也好我們好像都沒有看到比較積極正面的處理方式因為我講一下屏東縣政府"},{"start":52.888,"end":78.38,"text":"針對今年屏東縣政府警察局的統計品科大周邊八萬校園裡面發生八十九起的A2事故受傷人數高達一百二十八人有嚴重嗎非常嚴重但是很遺憾目前為止教育部跟品科大似乎沒有提出比較好的一個對策我這邊也接到很多的學生家長的呈現所以待會兩點半在我的辦公室我要開一個協調會"},{"start":79.841,"end":100.528,"text":"保證 你做一個保證 針對這個事情 你有什麼樣的想法跟建議嗎跟委員報告 比方說我們看到一個年輕人因為行車上的一些安全上 或是發生了一些意外甚至斷送生命 這比方說人和人都會不捨 因為北部要靠沒白色啦"},{"start":101.808,"end":111.017,"text":"這個白髮送黑髮這是那位委員說的要靠沒辦法將心比心好好要讓他有一個學生可以有比較安全的這個行的一個這個環境我想我們來責成這個評科大一定要認真把他"},{"start":118.024,"end":136.11,"text":"對 起到十八號的高中比較 還有上我們的評價 這些很好的學校就這樣發生車禍 當然我知道目前大概有幾個方向包含教育部也好 包含交通部也好 包含國土署大概有幾個方向都可以推 但是我們的速度太慢了 學校也不夠積極啦"},{"start":137.37,"end":152.856,"text":"所以保證希望待會我的協調會開的時候你要交代 包含評科大也好 包含我們高教師也好應該我們就馬上要有明確的一個措施啦不能再困擾我們孩子 因為這樣生命就不一樣了我想感謝委員的提醒"},{"start":153.456,"end":168.477,"text":"这个会后我们一定会立即这个折成这个评科大整个学校的一个治理一定要有一个具体的一些作为当然我知道最近这两天校长也好或是他们学生会好"},{"start":168.997,"end":189.722,"text":"都有發一些書面的聲明但這聲明也不能沒有一個積極的作為聲明也是提醒大家而已但是因為他們裡面校園很闊大家騎車我們要速度會比較快如果沒有做一些的必要的一些措施來保障學生的安全我想這個意外還是會發生一定真的要有積極的作為不然這件辦事拜託一下"},{"start":192.043,"end":215.97,"text":"那另外我知道 伯弟兄我們現在的那個預算 伯弟兄也讀不到所以我也擔心 我們平常我們現在目前還有25所的學校跑道 那個破損要整修那我們還有26所學校 159間的廁所要整修伯弟兄 會不會因為你的預算減少這些原本的一些修繕計畫受到影響"},{"start":219.741,"end":241.488,"text":"均衡臺灣本來就是政府既定的一個政策我們怎麼去關照不同的一個財力的一個這個縣市的一個發展我想教育部在這個部分我們會這個折旁帶我們一定跟地方來一起來合作來更積極來協助來改善很高興聽到部長給我們正面的答覆"},{"start":242.308,"end":255.558,"text":"這個後續要請部長交代一下要不然我們二十五間一定過去一年補三間現在有可能一年就剩兩間而已我們這二十五間可能要十年才能完成對孩子情何以堪這萬一塞下去沒辦法 我想"},{"start":257.259,"end":280.152,"text":"伯丁你也很不敢 我想你自己也是一個做過這個好好的好長的人 我想你也對這個孩子的這個一個運動效益的環境也很重視那最後一個伯丁我之前有跟我們吳立法委員到我們這個教文委員會到屏東的海生館去考察當然海生館他肩負了海洋教育跟生態保衛的一個重責大任今天館長也有到"},{"start":281.593,"end":294.011,"text":"那後續因為鄉村報告的過去有鯨魚化石這是一個很重要的一個未來的一個保存的一個很重要的一個重大的一個計畫那是不是在這部分海生館有沒有什麼樣的一個規劃"},{"start":297.157,"end":312.355,"text":"請館長回答委員好 謝委員剛才今年5月19日我們到海生館去看現在跟委員報告一下說目前大概在橫沖挖出來的那些金屯的化石目前正在台中理工博物館正在展示到2026年"},{"start":313.576,"end":335.675,"text":"那后续有关上次委员关心的横存当地的那些精纯的化石因为这一块涉及到那个文资保护的问题这跟相关法令还有土地的都有限制那这一部分可能会建议委员因为这部分属于文化部的管辖那如果有文化部出来那后续比如说加上屏东县政府还有像我们海生馆或部里面可以一起大家来"},{"start":336.936,"end":361.255,"text":"協調後續看要怎麼樣我們未來也會跨部會到時候我們會請文化部把這些化石專法我們要立法然後我們也希望能夠爭取一個保存一個場域但是在這個場域還沒完全進行我們海生館有一個新的展覽館明年才會好這方面是不是可以優先把台中科博館的晶圓化石可以刷回來給我們屏東最起碼在屏東露出來給我們屏東人看得到嘛保齡能不能承諾這一點"},{"start":363.203,"end":369.312,"text":"我想這個 我也感謝委員的一個提醒我們朝這個方向來規劃來努力好 謝謝謝謝徐副國委員 謝謝部長 請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":991,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（13時16分）謝謝主席。有請鄭部長、高教司廖司長。"],["主席：請部長跟高教司。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好。部長有沒有去過屏東科技大學？"],["鄭部長英耀：屏東科技大學？"],["徐委員富癸：屏科大你有去過嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：有，有去過好幾次。"],["徐委員富癸：這個校園很廣、環境很優美。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["徐委員富癸：但是部長知道最近屏科大發生什麼事嗎？在短短11天裡面，兩個學生在學校裡面車禍身亡，兩個年輕生命不見了！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這是非常嚴重的事情。很遺憾的，到目前為止，教育部也好，還有屏科大也好，我們好像都沒有看到比較積極正面的處理方式。部長，我知道今年屏東縣政府警察局的統計，屏科大周邊包含校園裡面發生89起的A2事故，受傷人數高達128人。部長，嚴不嚴重？非常嚴重！但是很遺憾，目前為止教育部跟屏科大似乎沒有提出比較好的對策，我這邊也接到很多學生家長的陳情，所以待會兒兩點半在我的辦公室，我要開一個協調會。部長，你做為一個部長，針對這個事情你有什麼樣的想法跟建議嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，平常我們看到一個年輕人因為一些行車安全發生意外，甚至斷送生命，憑良心講，任何人都會不捨，因為……"],["徐委員富癸：父母欲哭無淚！"],["鄭部長英耀：白髮送黑髮誠如委員所說的，欲哭無淚！將心比心，學校要怎麼讓學生可以有一個比較安全的行的環境，我想我們來責成屏科大一定要認真納入……"],["徐委員富癸：養到18歲高中畢業，送去屏科大這麼好的學校，就這樣發生車禍。","當然我知道目前大概有幾個方向，包含教育部也好、包含交通部也好、包含國土署，大概有幾個方案都可以推，但是速度都太慢了！學校也不夠積極！部長，希望等一下我的協調會開的時候，你要交代，包含屏科大也好、包含高教司也好，應該馬上要有明確的措施，不能再看到我們的孩子因為這樣生命就沒了！"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的提醒，會後我們一定會立即責成屏科大，學校自己一定要有一些具體的作為。"],["徐委員富癸：當然我知道最近這兩天，校長也好，或是學生會，都有發一些書面聲明，如果沒有一個積極的作為，聲明也只是提醒大家而已，但是因為校園很大，大家騎車速度難免會比較快，如果沒有做一些必要的措施保障學生的安全，我想意外還是會發生，真的一定要有積極的作為！部長，這個就要萬事拜託了！另外，部長，我知道現在預算也是被砍了不少，但是目前我們屏東有25所學校的跑道破損需要整修、也有26所學校總共156間廁所需要整修。部長，會不會因為你的預算減少導致這些原本的修繕計畫受到影響？"],["鄭部長英耀：均衡臺灣本來就是政府既定的政策，如何關照不同財力的縣市發展，教育部在這個部分責無旁貸，一定會與地方一起合作，更積極的協助改善。"],["徐委員富癸：很高興聽到部長給我們正面的答復，後續也要請部長交代一下，不然這25所學校在過去是一年修繕3所，現在可能一年只能修繕2所而已，25所學校的修繕可能要10年才能夠完成，讓這些孩子情何以堪！萬一摔倒、跌倒，部長應該也會很不捨，你也是曾經擔任過學校校長的人，對孩子在校園的運動環境應該也是很重視。","最後一個，部長，我之前與伍麗華委員帶教文委員會去屏東海生館考察，海生館肩負海洋教育與生態保育的重責大任，而且恆春半島在過去發現的鯨魚化石，可說是未來很重大的保存計畫。海生館在這個部分有沒有什麼樣的規劃？請司長回答。"],["梁司長學政：委員好，謝謝委員在今年5月19日到海生館考察。目前恆春挖出的那些鯨豚化石正在臺中科博館展示，一直要到2026年，關於委員關心的恆春當地鯨豚化石，因為這一塊涉及文資保護的問題，相關法令及土地都有限制，屬於文化部的管轄。如果能由文化部出面，後續再加上屏東縣政府及我們海生館或部裡，大家可以一起協調後續該怎麼進行比較好。"],["徐委員富癸：未來也會經由跨部會處理，部長，到時候我們會請文化部一起針對化石專法進行立法，也希望能夠爭取保存的場域，但是在這個場域尚未完成之前，海生館有一個新的展覽館、展示館……"],["梁司長學政：明年才會完成。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這個地方能否優先將在臺中科博館展覽的鯨魚化石移回我們屏東存放，因為是從屏東挖出來的，當然要讓我們屏東人看得到嘛！部長，能不能承諾這一點？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的提醒，我們會朝這個方向規範及努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員、謝謝部長，請回座。","現在請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db640a7b190ff3f83506c95259d4de0cc173471e8ca08e6d68ea4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請部長請鄭部長"},{"start":14.465,"end":33.531,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了在上個會期5月28的時候我來教文委員會質詢教育部長有提到兩大訴求這兩大訴求其實就是在教育界討論非常熱烈的當時我的訴求第一個就是說希望能夠做個分流機制來處理匿名檢舉"},{"start":35.692,"end":57.083,"text":"那另外一個就是希望我可以請我們教育部來針對校士會議全國中等以下學校的這個數據樣態可以掌握到那非常感謝我也拿到了調查的一個數據資料那總歸來講大概有三點第一個就是發現這些案件中八成是受理的"},{"start":57.583,"end":81.901,"text":"但是受理的中间有一半是不成立的而且成立的案件中超过一半是进入考核办法是轻微的申戒所以这个跟我们大致上想象的也差不多所以我后来也看到教育部发布的新闻稿也提到说会修校事会议办法包括这种匿名检举"},{"start":82.421,"end":103.333,"text":"還有案件的受理的一個分流方向非常好但是我想這個部分我還是有一些部分還是要來提醒精進那第一個部分就是因為在這些受理調查期間礙於教師法的第25條大家很在意的就是調查期間的半薪那結果如果沒有的時候"},{"start":104.747,"end":115.477,"text":"只能夠回復本心所以這個對無望之災的人來講真的是非常非常的冤枉我不曉得說部長這個部分有精進作為了嗎"},{"start":117.242,"end":136.29,"text":"感谢委员关心教师的一个权益特别对老师这个受到不实的指控以后怎么样恢复我觉得那是一个也是另外一种所谓的社会的正义所以委员所关心的确实是我们内部现在演绎的一个方向"},{"start":137.557,"end":165.287,"text":"請問教育部這邊會主動來修教師法或待遇條例嗎我想我們會跟行政院做報告我希望教育部要主動 好不好好 另外一個部分就是大家很關心所謂的調查的人才 人才庫因為根據我們這個解聘辦法裡面沒有寫到回訊這樣的一個做法也沒有提到利益迴避的一個機制其中就是關於淘汰"},{"start":166.167,"end":190.988,"text":"的機制是有但是我不太曉得說到底你們有沒有調查過那到底被淘汰的多少人他的比例是多少六常識好那利益迴避機制呢"},{"start":194.884,"end":214.936,"text":"官委員報告現行的各種比較高層次的例如程序法 行政程序法這些都已經有規範那麼他們都會簽署那就去根據那個就可以那淘汰機制是辦法裡頭有寫啦還有沒有可以到點都有因為時間的關係是不是可以提供我書面資料我想知道那個淘汰的人數跟比例好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":216.457,"end":245.109,"text":"那另外呢就是針對這個重複投訴拒絕受理第51條有但是有一條說宰民陳情人對主管機關之處理結果不服者不得提起救濟那這個部分我們是覺得說也是有問題為什麼因為他不得提起救濟結果呢就只好找明帶只好找媒體爆料衍生更多的恐慌所以我不曉得說這個部分是不是應該要去修正提供救濟管道"},{"start":247.534,"end":262.406,"text":"中文報告這都會一併在我們未來的修正都會一併會喔好謝謝部長好那另外一個議題就是我非常關心我們族語文教師的一個發展那當然我在這邊要特別謝謝教育部"},{"start":263.106,"end":282.355,"text":"因為我這幾年關心的一些像是已經有辦理原住民公費專班 謝謝那調整公費生的畢業條件然後國小足以師資調整為中高級或者是完備原住民族文化學習空間給予這樣的一個補助等等"},{"start":283.335,"end":309.166,"text":"其實每一年每一年謝謝教育部都有聽到我們的聲音也都能夠去做這樣的一個改變那我也代替我們基層的這些老師們說聲感謝但是我想關心一下因為我看今天的夜報說本土語文專長教師政書之師資累計到今年八月底一共有2567人然後截至去年"},{"start":310.006,"end":318.697,"text":"113學年度取得教師證人數的有983人那請教一下這個當中有多少位是原住民的足以失之"},{"start":326.262,"end":351.695,"text":"我們那個稍後確認再跟你好沒關係那就提供我書面資料為什麼我這樣關心因為我們來看一下其實我們目前的主語教師有分三類第一類就是專職主語教師第二類是教學支援老師第三類就是限職的老師他有認證之後他也可以選擇去上主語課但是我們來看一下比例專職教師大概占一成"},{"start":352.515,"end":371.204,"text":"教學資源老師大概占八成現職老師會去投入教主語課的大概是一成所以絕大宗都是在教學資源教師但是我們看一下夜報寫的說要增進專職主語教師的權益也有說要把他的薪資基準要提升3%"},{"start":372.665,"end":396.025,"text":"但是剛才有談到啦教學資源教師才是最大宗七八成沒有看到他的權益那麼專職主語教師能夠加薪那主語教師很辛苦喔我為什麼這樣講前陣子的新聞在台南有一位教阿美語的主語老師他就是在跑學校的過程中就車禍身亡"},{"start":397.486,"end":417.056,"text":"那我們來看他的基本資料他是一週27節目與課而且是任職13校那這個事件發生之後呢其實台中的這些主委老師與推老師也有找我澄清其中有一位70歲任職16校在台中市"},{"start":417.856,"end":445.877,"text":"他怎麼跟我講呢委員我的錢變多是很好啦可是我都已經70歲了我也不想跑那麼多學校可是他們找不到老師一直找我一直找我啊說委員這個要怎麼辦你要想辦法所以這個現象其實不是個案而是很平凡的現象但是我想說的是說我們的少數人啊佔據了大部分國家政府的族裔的經費的資源"},{"start":447.779,"end":453.635,"text":"我聽過有一些語推老師他的薪水是三萬多但是他的外快六萬多"},{"start":454.98,"end":477.034,"text":"因為他到處要去幫忙做翻譯哪一個部會什麼樣又要去接什麼接什麼接什麼也就是說我們政府提供那麼多的資源但是只有少數人佔據這些大部分的資源那沒有的依然沒有為什麼偏鄉找不到主義老師因為外面都搶得兇得要命他在都會區就好了"},{"start":477.654,"end":506.068,"text":"所以偏鄉反而依然還是沒有所以我是希望說是不是第一個有教育部去思考一下我們整體主語經費到底目前多少它的配置的狀況了解一下那我希望是說另外就是提高這個專職主語老師的比例不要讓這些教學支援教師占那麼高八成的比例然後他們的權益他們的風險我覺得這個部分部長是不是我們應該來檢討一下"},{"start":508.11,"end":536.06,"text":"謝謝委員提醒好 那另外就是有幾個要精進的就是像現在認證有分中高級 高級 優級啦那我們是希望說分級敘心啦因為沒有道理 大家都一樣我覺得這個其實在教育上其實並不是很好的一個正向的做法那另外就是希望足以教學支援的老師要訂定一個授課時數的上限那不足的部分沒有關係配合直播教學"},{"start":536.44,"end":554.042,"text":"不要讓他們疲於奔命冒風險那另外我也是希望說我們學校的師培啊師培生培養他的第二主語專長那這一些現在像台東大學開的這些主語的語文教師班我們是不是給他做一個第二專長"},{"start":555.023,"end":583.875,"text":"他也可以教別的科 要不然沒有縣市開圈 分發不出去那另外就是這些年輕的主語教師提供他們主語職涯的進入讓這些年輕的老師能夠進來才不會讓這些年紀大的老師一直在那個地方撐那還有一個要提醒的就是有學生跟我們反映他讀到高中了 高中生跟我們反映他們學校上的主語課跟國中的時候學得一模一樣他說他沒有學更多那就是因為我們沒有把關"},{"start":584.815,"end":605.122,"text":"沒有這樣的一個課綱或者是什麼樣的一個機制所以我也希望說目前還是麻煩我們國教署去查一下提供一個書面的資料到底現在原資中心我們叫他們有一個任務叫做要去做課程做教材那我不曉得到底成效如何成果如何"},{"start":605.882,"end":633.269,"text":"那再來就是有一個武專生陳情啦他說因為我們訂定的這個辦法他說是高級中等以下學校所以呢他是武專生他頻頻跟高一的學生一樣他說學校說那個教育部國教署沒有規定我們要開所以呢不給他上母語課所以我想這個部分也希望那最後一個部分因為昨天的TREI大家都在討論自然領域教師免修失陪"},{"start":634.269,"end":653.465,"text":"那這個部分其實國外已經有在做我也知道教育部是正在研議當中那也把這樣的消息放出來但是我只是要提醒啦當年我們缺老師的時候民國七十幾年八零年代那時候因為缺老師我們開放學試後的師資班啦他們是要修兩年四十學分啦"},{"start":654.245,"end":680.55,"text":"但是他們聽說從業界來的只要修八學分這個部分我覺得我們都應該要說明把方案說明清楚避免引起誤會他們要怎麼樣取得資格他們的薪資是怎麼樣可是我覺得我們在說明的時候其實還是要尋求一個最大公約數我們都是為了學生的受教權所以老師的教學品質把關才是最重要的"},{"start":681.05,"end":702.352,"text":"如果這些透過嚴格的教學法官他就是很棒的教師我想這個絕對沒有人會去反對所以這個部分我想我也是有點擔憂因為很多人問說那請問如果是專技老師跟老師薪水一樣四五萬他在業界他那麼多張的證照他可以領幾十萬他會願意來參加這個嗎"},{"start":703.854,"end":717.039,"text":"那我們為了這個辦法是希望招聘優秀人才進來那結果到最後忙了老半天沒有人想來 也不好所以這個部分我還是希望說教育部能夠再想想好 那部長"},{"start":717.93,"end":737.578,"text":"感謝委員的提醒其實我們剛才看到這個大專業校我們現在因為少數有一些大專業校理學院 工學院的教授他事實上在大學很稱職但是只是因為這一個這個可能學校的一個地點或者學校因為這個人口國內這個台灣人口政策"},{"start":738.098,"end":761.7,"text":"所以他阶段性的一个退场那这些老师我们事实上他是非常专业的我们当然希望说如果学校里边高中职他有STEM老师上的一个不足能够从大学里边这些不管讲师助理教授甚至副教授教授也愿意去我们还边有这个奖金来鼓励他到学校里面"},{"start":762.321,"end":779.838,"text":"那事實上就產業上來講我們也看到有許多產業它面臨的挑戰是很大的所以這些有高學歷的在R&D的這些所謂的工程師或是科技人他們可能通常會到45歲甚至50歲以後他就離在"},{"start":782.901,"end":811.855,"text":"离开这个职场他不愿意继续卖干但是他们对教育是有热情的他们也是专业的他们跟产业是连结是熟悉的所以这里边怎么样能够为技高能够所用这事实上我们所规范的所想象的都不是外界对不了解的许多的猜测所以我们才希望这个政策共通事实上还是确保能够事实来言多样性但是它是品质是优秀的"},{"start":812.635,"end":830.901,"text":"還是要通過學校他們教師是他們願意的而不是說我今天有這麼的人我就強塞給哪一個學校我想我們只是把這個steam的私私的來源希望能夠鼓舞有熱情專業的人他願意部長都可以多一些素面答覆好不好好謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝署長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":948,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時2分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，辛苦了。在上個會期5月28日的時候，我來教文委員會質詢教育部長有提到兩大訴求，這兩大訴求其實就是在教育界討論非常熱烈的。當時我的訴求：第一個就是希望能夠做個分流機制來處理匿名檢舉，另外一個就是希望可以請教育部針對校事會議，全國中等以下學校的數據、樣態可以掌握到。非常感謝，我也拿到了調查的數據資料。","總歸來講大概有三點，第一個就是發現這些案件中8成是受理的，但是受理的中間有一半是不成立的，而且成立的案件中超過一半進入考核辦法，是輕微的申誡，這個跟我們大致上想像的也差不多。所以我後來也看到教育部發布的新聞稿提到會修校事會議辦法，包括這種匿名檢舉，還有案件受理的分流方向。非常好！","但是針對這個部分，我還是有一些要來提醒精進。第一個部分就是因為在這些受理調查期間，礙於教師法第二十五條，大家很在意的就是調查期間的半薪，結果如果沒有的時候只能夠回復本薪，這對無妄之災的人來講真的是非常非常冤枉，我不曉得部長對這個部分有精進作為了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員關心教師的權益，特別對老師受到不實指控，以後怎麼樣回復，我覺得那也是另外一種所謂的正義。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還他一個公道。"],["鄭部長英耀：所以委員所關心的確實是我們內部現在研議的一個方向。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請問教育部這邊會主動修教師法或待遇條例嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會跟行政院報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望教育部要主動，好不好？另外一個部分就是大家很關心所謂的調查人才庫，因為根據解聘辦法，裡面沒有寫到回訓這樣一個作法，也沒有提到利益迴避的機制，其中關於淘汰的機制是有，但是我不太曉得到底你們有沒有調查過被淘汰的有多少人？它的比例是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，回流的紀錄一年大概有6場次。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：6場次。那利益迴避機制呢？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，現行各種比較高層次的，例如行政程序法這些都已經有規範，他們都會簽署。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是根據那個就可以，淘汰機制是辦法裡頭有寫。"],["彭署長富源：要點都有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為時間的關係，是不是可以提供我書面資料？我想知道淘汰的人數跟比例，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。另外就是針對重複投訴應拒絕受理，在第五十一條有，但是有一點是載明陳情人對主管機關之處理結果不符者，不得提起救濟；這個部分我們覺得也是有問題，為什麼？因為不得提起救濟，結果就只好找民代、只好找媒體爆料，衍生更多的恐慌。所以我不曉得這個部分是不是應該要修正，提供救濟管道？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這在我們未來的修正都會一併納入討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會喔？好，謝謝部長。","另外一個議題就是我非常關心我們族語文教師的發展，當然我在這邊要特別謝謝教育部，因為我這幾年關心的一些問題，包括已經有辦理原住民公費專班，謝謝！還有調整公費生的畢業條件、國小族語師資調整為中高級，或者是完備原住民族文化學習空間，給予這樣的一個補助等等。其實每一年、每一年謝謝教育部都有聽到我們的聲音，也都能夠去做這樣一個改變，我也代替基層的這些老師們說聲感謝。","但是我想關心一下，因為我看今天的業報提到具本土語文專長教師證書之師資，累計到今年8月底一共有2,567人，截至去年113學年度取得教師證人數的有983人。請教一下，這個當中有多少位是原住民的族語師資？"],["武司長曉霞：委員，我們稍後確認再跟您報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，沒關係，那就提供我書面資料。為什麼我這樣關心？我們來看一下，其實目前的族語教師有分三類：第一類就是專職族語教師，第二類是教學支援老師，第三類就是現職教師，有認證之後也可以選擇去上族語課。但是我們來看一下比例，專職教師大概占一成，教學支援老師大概占八成，現職老師會投入教族語課的大概是一成，所以絕大宗都是在教學支援教師。","我們看一下業報寫的說要增進專職族語教師的權益，也有說要把薪資基準提升3%，但是剛才有談到教學支援教師才是最大宗，有七、八成，卻沒有看到他的權益。專職族語教師能夠加薪，族語教師很辛苦，我為什麼這樣講？前陣子的新聞，在臺南有一位教阿美語的族語老師就是在跑學校的過程中車禍身亡。我們來看他的基本資料，他是一週27節母語課，而且是任職13校，這個事件發生之後，其實臺中的這些族語老師、語推老師也有找我陳情，其中有一位70歲任職16校，在臺中市，他怎麼跟我講呢？「委員，我的錢變多是很好啦！可是我都已經70歲了，我也不想跑那麼多學校，可是他們找不到老師，一直找我、一直找我啊！」他問我要怎麼辦，要我想辦法！所以這個現象其實不是個案，而是很平凡的現象！","但是我想說的是我們的少數人占據了大部分國家政府族語經費的資源，我聽過有一些語推老師的薪水是三萬多，但是他的外快六萬多，因為他到處去幫忙做翻譯，哪一個部會怎麼樣、又要去接什麼、接什麼、接什麼；也就是說我們政府提供那麼多資源，但是只有少數人占據了大部分的資源，沒有的依然沒有！為什麼？偏鄉找不到族語老師，因為外面都搶得兇得要命！他在都會區就好了，所以偏鄉依然還是沒有！我是希望，第一個，教育部去思考一下，整體族語經費到底目前有多少？它的配置的狀況？了解一下！另外就是我希望提高專職族語老師的比例，不要讓這些教學支援教師占那麼高，八成的比例，然後他們的權益、他們的風險，我覺得這個部分，部長，是不是應該來檢討一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。另外就是有幾個要精進的，現在認證有分中高級、高級、優級，我們是希望分級敘薪，因為沒有道理大家都一樣，我覺得這個在教育上其實並不是一個很好的、正向的作法。再來就是希望族語教學支援老師要訂定一個授課時數上限，不足的部分沒有關係，就配合直播教學，不要讓他們疲於奔命、冒風險。還有我也是希望培養學校師培生的第二族語專長，像現在臺東大學開的族語語文教師班，我們是不是做一個第二專長？讓他也可以教別的科，要不然沒有縣市開缺分發不出去。還要提供這些年輕族語教師族語職涯的進路，讓這些年輕的老師能夠進來，才不會讓年紀大的老師一直在那個地方撐！","還有一個要提醒的就是有高中生跟我們反映，他讀到高中了，但是在學校上的族語課跟國中時候學的一模一樣，他說他並沒有學到更多，那就是因為我們沒有把關，沒有一個這樣的課綱或者是什麼樣的機制。所以我也希望目前還是麻煩國教署去查一下，提供一個書面資料，現在原資中心有一個任務叫做要去做課程、做教材，我不曉得到底成效如何、成果如何？","再來就是有一個五專生陳情，他說我們訂定的這個辦法是高級中等以下學校，因為他是五專生，他明明跟高一的學生一樣，但是學校說教育部國教署並沒有規定一定要開，所以不讓他上母語課，我想這個部分也希望……","最後，因為昨天的Threads大家都在討論自然領域教師免修師培，這個部分其實國外已經有在做，我也知道教育部是正在研議當中，也把這樣的消息放出來，但我只是要提醒，當年我們缺老師的時候，在民國七十幾年、80年代，那時候因為缺老師，我們開放學士後師資班，他們是要修2年40學分，但是他們聽說從業界來的只要修8學分，這個部分我覺得都應該要說明，把方案說明清楚，避免引起誤會，包括他們要怎麼樣取得資格、他們的薪資是怎麼樣。可是我覺得在說明的時候其實還是要尋求一個最大公約數，我們都是為了學生的受教權，所以老師的教學品質把關才是最重要的。如果這些透過嚴格的教學把關，他就是很棒的教師，我想這個絕對沒有人會反對。對於這個部分我也是有點擔憂，因為很多人會問，如果專技老師跟老師薪水一樣四、五萬，在業界有那麼多張證照可以領幾十萬，他會願意來參加這個嗎？我們這個辦法是希望招聘優秀人才進來，結果到最後忙了老半天沒有人想來也不好！所以這個部分我還是希望教育部能夠再想想。部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的提醒，其實我們剛才看到現在因為少子化，有一些大專院校、理學院、工學院的教授在大學很稱職，可能只是因為學校的地點或者學校因為臺灣人口政策，所以階段性退場，這些老師事實上是非常專業的，我們當然希望如果高中職有STEM老師的不足，能夠從大學裡面不管是講師、助理教授，甚至副教授、教授也願意去，我們還編有獎金鼓勵他們到學校裡面。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上就產業來講，我們也看到有許多產業面臨的挑戰是很大的，所以這些有高學歷在R＆D的工程師或者是科技人，他們通常可能到45歲，甚至50歲以後就離開職場了，不願意繼續賣肝，但是他們對教育是有熱情的，他們也是專業的，他們跟產業是連結、是熟悉的，所以這裡面怎麼樣能夠讓技高有所用？事實上我們所規範的、所想像的，都不是如外界不了解的許多猜測。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。所以我們才希望這個政策溝通……"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上還是確保師資來源能夠多樣性，但是品質是優秀的，還是要通過學校教師甄試，他們願意的，而不是今天有這樣的人就強塞給哪一個學校，我想我們只是把STEAM的師資來源，希望能夠鼓舞有熱情專業的人願意加進來。"],["主席：部長，可以多一些書面答復，好不好？謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長及署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","現在請徐富癸委員進行質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db626c2b1c7f871ed0f6c95259d4de0cc173471e8ca08e6d68ea4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:57:33 - 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謝謝主席我們讓部長喝口水好 我們請國教署長好了啦我們換署長那部長旁邊部長休息一下請分署長我們講的部長都非常清楚好 來"},{"start":18.819,"end":41.04,"text":"謝謝署長好署長辛苦了我們辦公室昨天才跟一些教文的委員當然還有包含許富奎委員我們開了一個特教座談會因為許富奎委員昨天自己也有說他自己的兒子也是糖寶寶其實我想部裡面一直都知道我們辦公室每一個會期都會辦特教座談會那因為有特教的議題方方面面那我想"},{"start":41.821,"end":68.104,"text":"收容的议题非常多不可能在今天讨论完毕那后续的工作要持续推进就是我们办公室这边公开拜托教育部跟国教署积极协助所有收容的问题我们让普特融合这个议题可以做得更好好不好好的好 署长我们来看一下我们今天就先讲第一个就好了来疑似生疑似生是现在让普师跟特师都感到非常困扰的议题第一个因为我们对于疑似生的定义"},{"start":68.704,"end":97.052,"text":"其實沒有法規範的定義也沒有相關的說明所以呢我們來看一下現場這個數字這是你們給我們的數字以台北市來說特教生跟疑似生的比例是4比1也就是說在台北市光是疑似生就2510名來到了宜蘭縣也是5比1花蓮縣也是5比1這個是特生跟疑似生的比例可是很詭異的是很奇怪我們來看高雄市整個高雄市在113年度只有一名疑似生"},{"start":98.416,"end":124.719,"text":"如果同樣都是六都署長你有沒有覺得這個數字差別太大了我認為這個差別之所以這麼大不是台北市出了問題也不是高雄市出了問題而是我們對於疑似生的定義跟認識不會只有地方上的差異可能你當老師的班跟我當老師的班署長你當導師跟我當導師我們對於疑似生的定義就不清楚而且沒有百分之百相同導致於我們出現這個數字"},{"start":126.72,"end":151.64,"text":"這部分你爸爸說明一下我時間很短你快速說明中央委員報告兩點目前法規上是的確沒有比較明確的這個定義但是它跟鑑定是綁在一起鑑定這個錢那現在我們想要在兩個月內把委員所及現在平均數是約略10比1但局部縣市有剛才比較奇異的現象這一些我們會去了解當地地方政府執行的情形"},{"start":152.28,"end":180.292,"text":"但是我们到底要怎么样定义疑似生我认为这件事情是现场老师都需要你们的帮忙那当然因为现场老师他们每天都在陪伴学生所以他们在现场观察的意见拜托你们一定要收拢不要只有透过教总或是教材我认为更多地方老师的座谈拜托去收拢我们会自行执行好 拜托定义要清楚再来往下看第二个问题现在疑似生老师们在现场面对的困境是你看根据你们的法规所写的"},{"start":181.572,"end":205.361,"text":"為持有各級主管機關合法有效鑑定證明之身心障礙疑似身學校要因學生輔導法規定提供服務特教老師也要提供協助然後還要觀察跟學習特殊需求評估必要的時候還要提報鑑定這就是我剛說的普施跟特施都在服務這些學生也就是說普施跟特施都在疑似身高漲的現場"},{"start":207.282,"end":234.015,"text":"那個師生比其實是要提高的可是我們現在看到的生師比其實是不含疑似生對不對 署長目前是沒有沒錯所以署長我們一起看到老師的困境好不好老師的困境就是生師比很難降下來然後可是家長對於生師比很高其實也常年不滿孩子所能夠受到照顧跟服務相對也沒有那麼好所以呢可是我們特效法又規定要降低生師比可是我們對於疑似生的定義又不清楚可是現場"},{"start":235.015,"end":256.537,"text":"全球都有一個趨勢署長你一定比我清楚全球都有一個趨勢就是特教生的比例越來越高包含美國他們都因為這樣要積極的在川普政府任內要推出相對應的法規跟大量的預算所以我認為特教生這個議題絕對是部裡面非常重的議題要拜託部長跟署長我們一起努力好不好是的"},{"start":256.857,"end":286.64,"text":"好最后一个我到三秒钟讲完我就不长战的听就可以了体育班的问题我相信部里面已经开启跟运动部的讨论我还是一个简单的诉求不管在几年内我希望越短时间越好我们让体育班这件事情要回归教育部主管机关这个非常非常重要但是如何在回归教育部主管机关同时收拢现场基层教练的声音家长的声音同时照顾到每一个学生的需求这个事情非常非常重要拜托我们一起努力"},{"start":287.061,"end":293.561,"text":"好谢谢署长谢谢部长谢谢主席谢谢好谢谢陈伯渝委员谢谢署长现在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時57分）好，謝謝主席，我們讓部長喝口水，好，我們請國教署長好了啦！我們換署長。"],["主席：請彭署長。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長休息一下，但是我想我們講的部長都非常清楚。好，謝謝署長，署長，辛苦了！"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們辦公室昨天才跟一些教文的委員，當然還有包含徐富癸委員，我們開了一個特教座談會，因為徐富癸委員昨天自己也有說，他自己的兒子也是唐寶寶。其實我想部裡面一直都知道，我們辦公室每一個會期都會辦特教座談會，因為有特教的議題方方面面喔！我想收容的議題非常多，不可能在今天討論完畢，後續的工作要持續推進，就是我們辦公室公開拜託教育部跟國教署積極協助所有收容的問題，我們讓普特融合這個議題可以做得更好，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：署長，我們來看一下，我們今天就先講第一個就好了，疑似生是現在讓普師跟特師都感到非常困擾的議題。第一個，因為我們對於疑似生其實沒有法規範的定義，也沒有相關的說明。我們來看一下現場這個數字，這是你們給我們的數字。以臺北市來說，特教生跟疑似生的比例是四比一，也就是說在臺北市光是疑似生就2,510名，來到了宜蘭縣也是五比一，花蓮縣也是五比一，這個是特生跟疑似生的比例喔！可是很詭異的是，很奇怪喔！我們來看高雄市，整個高雄市在113年度只有一名疑似生耶！如果同樣都是六都，署長，你有沒有覺得這個數字差別太大了？我認為這個差別之所以這麼大，不是臺北市出了問題，也不是高雄市出了問題，而是我們對於疑似生的定義跟認識，不會只有地方上的差異，可能你當老師的班跟我當老師的班，署長，你當導師跟我當導師，我們對於疑似生的定義就不清楚，而且沒有百分之百相同，導致於我們出現這個數字，這個部分你們要不要說明一下？我時間很短，你快速說明。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告兩點，目前法規上的確沒有比較明確的定義。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。"],["彭署長富源：它跟鑑定是綁在一起。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["彭署長富源：就是鑑定這個錢。現在我們想要在兩個月內把委員所提，現在平均數約略是10比1，但是局部縣市剛才說有比較歧異的現象，這些我們會去了解當地地方政府執行的情形，我們會盤點。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我們到底要怎麼樣定義疑似生？我認為這件事情現場老師都需要你們的幫忙，當然因為現場的老師他每天都在陪伴學生，所以他們在現場觀察的意見，拜託你們一定要收攏，不要只有透過教總或是教產，我認為更多地方老師的座談，拜託去收攏……"],["彭署長富源：我們會自己執行。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，拜託定義要清楚。再來往下看第二個問題，現在針對疑似生，老師們在現場面對的困境是……根據你們法規所寫的，未持有各級主管機關核發有效鑑定證明之身心障礙疑似生，學校要依學生輔導法規定提供服務，特教老師也要提供協助，然後還要觀察跟學習特殊需求評估，必要的時候還要提報鑑定；這就是我剛剛說的，普師跟特師都在服務這些學生。也就是說，普師跟特師都在疑似生高漲的現場，那個師生比其實是要提高的。可是我們現在看到的生師比其實是不含疑似生，對不對？署長。"],["彭署長富源：目前是沒有。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，所以署長，我們一起看到老師的困境，好不好？老師的困境就是生師比很難降下來，可是家長對於生師比很高，其實也常年不滿，孩子所能夠受到的照顧跟服務相對也沒有那麼好。我們特教法規定要降低生師比，可是我們對於疑似生的定義又不清楚。全球現場都有一個趨勢，署長，你一定比我清楚，全球都有的趨勢就是特教生的比例越來越高，包含美國他們都因為這樣，積極地要在川普政府任內推出相對應的法規跟大量預算。所以我認為特教生的議題絕對是部裡面非常重的議題，要拜託部長跟署長，我們一起努力，好不好？"],["彭署長富源：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，最後一個，我用3秒鐘講完，部長站著聽就可以了。關於體育班的問題，我相信部裡面已經開啟跟運動部的討論，我還是一個簡單的訴求，不管在幾年內，我希望越短時間越好，我們讓體育班這件事情要回歸教育部主管機關，這個非常非常重要。但是如何在回歸教育部主管機關的同時，收攏現場基層教練的聲音、家長的聲音，同時照顧到每一個學生的需求，這個事情非常非常重要，拜託我們一起努力。謝謝署長，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["彭署長富源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，謝謝署長。","現在我們請伍麗華委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6568d7deaade59ef66c95259d4de0cc173471e8ca08e6d68e81c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"12:32:23 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族語課程"},{"start":96.221,"end":115.503,"text":"那什麼時候能完成這個評普原住民這個各族語言的師資跟教材的盤點進而開設課程我這邊要求的不多啦因為一開始其實萬事起頭難可是是否可以現在各族主要的分布地"},{"start":116.464,"end":144.507,"text":"因為平埔族有聚落的地方確實不多各族的分布地來完成盤點跟開設例如像台南的Siraya跟南投的Kahabu我覺得是不是可以從這邊做起那部長是不是可以給個承諾謝謝我很關心平埔原住民會後我再跟委員報告其實我們平埔原住民族還真的是非常的多"},{"start":146.055,"end":170.214,"text":"那根據這個沈建德這一個教授的一個研究其實從婚姻的儀式裡邊只要結婚有台帝拜天公不顧坐大 為這都是被補助很多台灣的社群其實都是被補助傳來我們確實也因為因應這個貧苦族所以這裡邊可能有很多都是有對 可是他還是要去登記才會成為貧苦族登記有個依據"},{"start":173.357,"end":189.837,"text":"然後兩個禮拜內我想我們來配合這一個然後跟台南市因為西拉亞我想台南那一個部分家裡地區或者附近大概是西拉亞族我想我們來優先來跟台南市政府來討論看相關的課程教材怎麼樣來發展"},{"start":191.539,"end":208.315,"text":"好 那再麻煩部長給個書面的報告好不好 相關的這些提問好 那我想再來還是要來跟您討論今天很多委員都關心的讓基層教師怨聲載道的這個校事會議的爛訴的問題"},{"start":210.277,"end":224.818,"text":"因為根據之前教育部所做的調查其實在去年解聘辦法修正後的一年來校士會議的投訴案量高達1372案那有超過八成的案件都有受理"},{"start":225.399,"end":238.98,"text":"可是經過調查之後的769件中不成立的案件有382件那佔比是49.7 將近5成那可是遭到停解聘的也才只有3.3%"},{"start":241.383,"end":262.219,"text":"所以很明顯就說消失會議我們清楚知道他主要用意是用來處理不適任教師的這個停解聘的事宜可是許多教師都反映很多意想不到的投訴案件都進到消失會議去我在今年其實五月的時候開啟者會也有舉一些案例"},{"start":263.8,"end":283.771,"text":"我在這裡就不再贅述那我絕對支持就是你最正確找或者是說真的涉及不適任疑慮的案件我們要盡最大力量來處理可是如果學校花了很多的時間 經費去找人 找資源來召開校事會議結果卻用在爛訴的案件上"},{"start":284.491,"end":311.645,"text":"那我覺得這個對老師不僅是很大的困擾那行政也沒辦法減量那又犧牲了老師備課跟照顧孩子的時間那我想部長真的有很肯定的跟很友善的表達說要研擬就是對匿名檢舉增加限制那我在教育部在上個禮拜也有召開解聘辦法的研商會議那有提出說要新增受理"},{"start":313.246,"end":341.326,"text":"之前要有個協調機制那我想要請教部長說那學校端這裡他要怎麼來分類說什麼案件是可以先行溝通協調那什麼案子是進入校事會議我的意思是說有時候學校端你若沒有給個指引或給個所謂的SOP那學校端也很難依循 部長"},{"start":342.486,"end":370.9,"text":"謝謝委員提醒確實我們在這一次的一個修訂裡邊我們就是希望能夠舉一些實際的案例然後給校長行政團隊有一些依循有一些只是口頭他老師的這個語言上的一時的這一些可能的一個疏漏我們就提醒他或者班級經營就提醒他他就改正有一些可能他在管教方式上需要有一段時間來有專人來協助他都沒有進入到"},{"start":371.96,"end":400.823,"text":"不必要进入到这个校师会议所以我们在这边以后校师会议就只有处理那一个由社会公正人士组成然后由处理不适任教师那一个机会至于属于要教学改善或者沟通或者亲师合作的这一个部分的增能也好或者一些行为上的调整这个就是在学校里边本权者里边来做所以我们大概就是会举例给学校端有SOP"},{"start":401.403,"end":430.664,"text":"好 那目前進到校事會議之中會有一個調查小組那現在全部的成員都是外聘那我當然知道其實這個外聘我們那時候也是防堵說這個師師相互嘛而且外聘就是所謂的公正人員而且這些外聘人員都有受訓過那也大部分是學者啦 律師等等可是現在有個問題出現就是本來的教師代表跟教養代表其實都是應聘"},{"start":431.644,"end":448.951,"text":"應邀來陳述意見他們就是一個列席的一個情況可是如果說我們調查小組成員如果全部都是外聘那這些也只有列席而已那我看很怕說學校的脈絡跟"},{"start":450.211,"end":479.31,"text":"真正的教學的情況這個調查小組不是很了解我們舉個例來講有時候有個老師他可能平常在學校的表現是非常的不錯可是他可能突然間有一個情緒上的問題或怎麼樣有一些失當的行為可是你這個外聘小組因為他不了解學校這個老師平常的做法所以他可能就意料這個失當的行為"},{"start":480.291,"end":504.803,"text":"做出相對嚴厲的這個處分那對這個老師其實來講不是很公平所以我的意思是說如果有協助調查的教師代表跟家長代表來協助輔助調查的話那是不是會讓這個調查小組的機制更為完備 可是前提是這個轉述調查報告一定是這三個外派的 外聘的"},{"start":505.823,"end":527.006,"text":"老師跟家長的這個代表就純粹是在輔助調查提供資料那個部長你覺得這樣如何謝謝委員的一個提醒確實我們也考慮到因為以現階段的教師會雖然有教師代表有家長代表都是列席而且常常都是結果定論了以後才去表達意見"},{"start":528.067,"end":541.586,"text":"陳主委員所說的我們能不能把他做到前端他也能夠隨著一起調查一起去了解整個事情的脈絡能夠真正的讓老師能夠他的權益不會受到這個損害"},{"start":543.308,"end":562.998,"text":"我想就是說我們有一定程度的一個有一些疏漏應該刻意適當的一個證明而不是一刀下去就因為而受到一個冤屈或者不當的一些對待我想委員的這個建議是非常有建設性的我想這也是我們在未來我們可以把他納進來一起來來做整個調整這個規劃 謝謝"},{"start":566.42,"end":585.342,"text":"再想繼續追問剛剛很多委員關心就是有關於教師法跟教師待遇條例因為老師如果受到停聘解聘或不續聘等等的處分提起救濟後他有回復聘證那我們只能補發他的本薪現在規定是這樣"},{"start":586.443,"end":608.221,"text":"可是教師的心思 部長你最清楚除了本性以外 還有學術研究費那如果他未受解聘或停聘處分那他用救濟方式恢復了這個病人老師那沒有給他補發這段時間的學術研究費我覺得恐怕不是很公平 一定有捏薄心而已"},{"start":609.302,"end":627.242,"text":"所以是不是這個事情也來研究看看讓他如果回復他的教師職位的話是不是就可以補給他所謂的全新謝謝委員的一個提醒確實我們也我想委員的這樣一個建議是很有建設性的我們來努力"},{"start":627.994,"end":654.355,"text":"好好謝謝那再簡單喔在那個30秒剛剛很多人提及就是大家都關心的我想這個是大家都關心就是這個終點費跟導師的職務加給的提升我想中間這個我們很多年都沒有提升然後跟物價指數也都沒有跟得上這個我看這個部長你非常非常清楚所以實際上要請教你就說"},{"start":655.276,"end":663.913,"text":"到底你現在的規劃中這個終點費或者導師費你有沒有想要調啊調幅大約是多少"},{"start":664.741,"end":693.862,"text":"我们关心的跟委员所关心的是一致的然后在教育部内部我们事实上也有一直在讨论那当然在整个中央财政的一个前提下我们怎么样有一个适度的一个去反映物价指数包括老师的一些稳定老师的一些教学的一些必要的一些支持的一个力量凸显老师的教学工作的一个价值这都是我们在努力"},{"start":693.882,"end":702.846,"text":"比如說像現在導師費一個月才三千塊 等於一天一百塊一家便當的超過一百塊所以我想這個討論一下 調整事實調整好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝移情委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":840,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（12時32分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：鄭部長請。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。首先要跟部長探討，原住民族教育在各個層面是否可以擴及即將核定的平埔原住民一事。平埔原住民族群身分法很有可能在10月底完成三讀，而有關身分取得以外的其他配套政策，我想也應該同時並進。所以我在這裡要跟部長探討，也提醒部長，因為我在上個會期非常積極參與平埔原住民族群身分法的立法討論，在審查會中我有提醒原民會，為了維繫平埔原住民的文化傳承，語言教育非常重要。以我先區的西拉雅實驗小學口埤國小為例，在族人的積極努力下，復振西拉雅語言跟文化很有成就。請教部長，教育部配合國家語言發展法，依照學生選課需求開設原住民族語課程，什麼時候能完成平埔原住民各族語言的師資跟教材盤點，進而開設課程？我要求的不多，因為一開始其實萬事起頭難，是否可以先在各族主要的分佈地？因為平埔族有聚落的地方確實不多，就各族的分佈地完成盤點跟開設，例如像臺南的西拉雅跟南投的嘎哈巫。我覺得是不是可以從這邊做起？部長是不是可以給個承諾？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心平埔原住民，會後我再跟委員報告，其實我們平埔原住民族還真的是非常的多。根據沈建德教授的研究，從婚姻的儀式諸如結婚要殺豬拜天公、母舅坐大位，這些都是跟平埔族……"],["林委員宜瑾：很多臺灣習俗其實都是平埔族傳來的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們確實也因為因應平埔族，所以這裡可能有很多都是有……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，可是他們還是要去登記才會成為平埔族，登記才有個依據。"],["鄭部長英耀：兩個禮拜內，我們來配合這一個，然後跟臺南市……像臺南佳里附近大多是西拉雅族，我們優先來跟臺南市政府討論，看相關的課程、教材怎麼樣來發展。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，再麻煩部長給個書面報告，好不好？針對相關的這些提問。"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：繼續要來跟您討論今天很多委員都關心的，讓基層教師怨聲載道的校事會議濫訴問題。根據之前教育部所做的調查，其實在去年解聘辦法修正後的一年來，校事會議的投訴案量高達1,732案，有超過八成的案件都有受理，可是經過調查之後的769件中，不成立的案件有382件，占比是49.7%，將近五成，遭到停解聘的也才只有3.3%。所以很明顯，我們清楚知道校事會議主要用意是用來處理不適任教師的停解聘事宜，可是許多教師都反映，很多意想不到的投訴案件都進到校事會議去。我在今年5月時開記者會也有舉一些案例，我在這裡就不再贅述，我絕對支持對於罪證確鑿或是真的涉及不適任疑慮的案件，我們要盡最大的力量來處理。可是如果學校花了很多的時間、經費，去找人、找資源來召開校事會議，結果卻用在濫訴的案件上，我覺得這對老師不僅是很大的困擾，行政也沒辦法減量，又犧牲了老師備課跟照顧孩子的時間。部長真的是有很肯定跟很友善的表達，說要來研擬對匿名檢舉增加限制，教育部在上個禮拜也有召開解聘辦法的研商會議，有提出新增受理之前要有個協調機制。我想要請教部長，在學校端要怎麼分類什麼案件。可以先行溝通協調，什麼案子可以進入校事會議？我的意思是，對學校端如果沒有給個指引或SOP，學校端也很難去依循。部長對這部分看法如何？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，確實我們在這一次的修訂，我們就是希望能夠舉一些實際的案例，給校長及行政團隊有一些依循。有一些只是老師口頭上或是語言上一時可能造成的疏漏，我們就提醒他，或者在班級經營方面提醒他，他就能夠改正；有一些可能是他在管教方式上需要有一段時間有專人來加以協助，這些都不必進入校事會議，以後校事會議就只由社會公正人士組成來處理不適任教師這部分，至於屬於要教學改善或溝通或親師合作這部分的增能也好，或者一些行為上的調整，這些就是在學校裡面或是由學者來做。"],["林委員宜瑾：就是會舉例啦，讓學校端有SOP。","另外，目前進到校事會議之後會有一個調查小組，現在全部的成員都是外聘。我當然知道對於外聘那時候我們也是防堵師師相護，外聘就是所謂的公正人員，而且這些外聘人員都有受訓過，大部分是學者、律師等等，可是現在有個問題出現，就是本來的教師代表跟家長代表其實都是應邀來陳述意見，他們就是列席的情況，可是如果調查小組成員全部都是外聘，這些代表也只有列席而已。本席是很怕學校的脈絡跟真正的教學情況，調查小組不是很了解。我們舉個例來講，比如有位老師可能平常在學校表現非常不錯，可是他可能突然間有情緒上的問題或怎麼樣，然後有一些失當的舉止、行為，而外聘小組因為不了解這個老師平常的做法，所以可能就依照這個失當的行為做出相對嚴厲的處分，那對這個老師其實不是很公平。所以我的意思是，如果有協助調查的教師代表跟家長代表來協助輔助調查的話，是不是會讓這個調查小組的機制更完備？可是前提是這個調查報告一定是這三個外聘人員做的，老師跟家長的代表就純粹是在輔助調查、提供資料。部長覺得這樣如何？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實我們也考慮到，因為現階段的校事會議雖然有教師代表、家長代表，但都是列席，而且常常都是結果定論了以後才去表達意見，所以如委員所說的，我們能不能把它做到前端，也能夠隨著一起調查，一起去了解整個事情的脈絡，能夠真正讓老師的權益不會受到損害，就是我們對於有一些疏漏應該課以適當的作法，而不是一刀下去讓當事人因此而受到冤屈或者不當的對待，我想委員的這個建議是非常有建設性的，我們在未來可以把它納進來做個調整。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝部長。","繼續追問剛剛很多委員也很關心，就是有關於教師法跟教師待遇條例，因為老師如果受到停聘、解聘或不續聘等等的處分，他在提起救濟後回復聘任，我們只能補發他的本薪，現在規定是這樣。可是部長最清楚，教師的薪資除了本薪以外還有學術研究費，如果他未受解聘或停聘處分，他用救濟方式恢復了聘任老師，但是沒有給他補發這段時間的學術研究費，我覺得恐怕不甚公平，他只有領半薪而已啦！所以針對這個事情也要加以研究，如果他回復教師職位是不是就可以補給他全薪？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，委員這樣的建議是很有建設性的，我們來努力。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。","請主席再給本席30秒。剛剛很多人提及，大家也都關心有關鐘點費及導師職務加給提升。我們很多年都沒有提升，也都沒有跟得上物價指數，我想這部分部長你非常清楚啦，所以請教在你現在的規劃中，你對鐘點費或者導師費有沒有想要調？調幅大約是多少？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們關心的跟委員所關心的一致，在教育部內部事實上也一直在討論，當然在整個中央財政的前提下，我們怎麼樣做適度的反映，包括物價指數，包括一些對穩定老師教學必要支持的力量，以突顯老師教學工作的價值，這都是我們在努力的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，像現在導師費一個月才3,000元，等於一天100元，現在一個便當就超過100元，所以請再討論一下，可以調整就適時調整。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員。","請賴委員惠員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db60560182b47826b396c95259d4de0cc173471e8ca08e6d68e81c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:44:30 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稍微有請部長請鄭部長部長好部長剛剛我們在下面看到這個板東之虎葉源之的質詢為我們教育發聲那好久不見了部長"},{"start":20.208,"end":42.874,"text":"首先先恭喜部長在今年8月下旬的內閣小改組留任下來那還記得我上一次也給你許多的一些鼓勵那我想教育是百年大業相信應該還有很多的政策及法案要推動那不曉得這個會期部長對於政務的推動有沒有什麼想法有沒有什麼政策一定要完成法案要完成可不可以簡單說明"},{"start":44.229,"end":59.758,"text":"我想第一個最簡單的就是我希望提供給學校中小學老師有一個更安穩更值得尊敬的一個工作的環境也就是說校士會議一定要優先來改善對 校士會議是我們非常關注的"},{"start":61.278,"end":80.804,"text":"這個年底之前可以提出具體的一些方案嗎是 我目前是設定這樣一個期限給自己的一個自我要求好 因為剛剛我有聽到就是您對於這個原本是要處理一些不適任教師但大大小小事務都進入到校師會議那我想也衍生出許多的問題"},{"start":81.784,"end":104.072,"text":"那不管是社會的輿論甚至是您來自教育界我想這個您都很清楚那您覺得目前各地的訪談足夠嗎要再增加嗎還是已經收容了這些相關的意見我們事實上在我進來之前事實上去年520我事實上對這個校式會議已經有一個初步的輪廓也就是說"},{"start":105.465,"end":124.658,"text":"當我決定要進來教育部的時候我事實上也跟地方的一些第一線上的校長家長跟老師有一定的一些決定我知道有一定的訪談啦只是說我擔心訪談的內容會不會不夠那要不要再增加你再考慮但我想今天你有講到重點第一不管是教師的環境甚至我們之前在講的"},{"start":125.538,"end":147.764,"text":"教师特教的家籍要增加因为他们多如牛毛的工作甚至是为终点老师甚至是代理教师这些为他们发声到刚刚所提到的身心调试架这个东西我们都希望在未来中能够更有具体的有一些做法来捍卫他们的工作权益"},{"start":148.024,"end":173.804,"text":"这个部分我希望不管是校师会议您给自己的期限是在年底刚刚所提到的身心调试假还有我们所谓的特教啊或者是老师的家籍啊终点老师这个部分的一些权益是不是您也可以给我们一些期限呢应该这么讲说身心调试假老师的期待我们充分了解我们也希望在未来能够朝那一个方向来努力半年"},{"start":174.921,"end":203.302,"text":"還是年底這個當然因為我必須要坦白從寬從整個國家的一個大的一個運作它當然這個不同的一些遷移法動全身我都知道整個體制上但我們希望就是說所有老師不希望看到官員只是回答演繹但是完全沒有動作所以我希望說在這個過程當中有具體的包含老師的許多事實上都是我們念之再之我們一直在努力好的"},{"start":203.982,"end":222.243,"text":"那我想就先就兩個才化法修法後的問題請教啦首先三張EQ現在的政策才化法修正以後中央將不再補助學校午餐的三張EQ的一個獎勵金改由地方政府自行來增加統籌分配款稅款以後的編列預算負擔"},{"start":223.745,"end":235.583,"text":"財化法修正後讓地方政府自行投入可能會導致差距擴大但是部分的地方財力較弱的縣市是否會影響學校營養午餐的品質這個你有掌握嗎"},{"start":238.251,"end":256.021,"text":"是不是请署长来说署长你说谢谢委员这个38亿或是还有偏乡厨房跟肉食学生21亿这74亿如果到县市的话我们都会要求这个要回编原来的数额"},{"start":256.721,"end":275.09,"text":"好 這個一定要全面的去了解控管我想財化法在修法的一個初期當中我們都能夠了解我們是希望地方政府能夠擁有更多的資源那在這個整體財化法修法以後呢配套措施現在不只是釋出相對應的預算"},{"start":276.391,"end":291.529,"text":"中央也释放相对应的应该负担的责任我想配套已经做好但是我们看到了不管是统筹分配款或者是地方我们现在的计划性补助款中央也有自己中央的一个做法"},{"start":292.19,"end":314.622,"text":"那有可能會導致到地方在整個財化法利益良善希望去增加資源的前提之下反對應的是被剝削了中央所過度的去做一個配套我想這個部分我們不應該在這邊全盤討論但是就現在說的三張EQ如果有的地方政府"},{"start":315.262,"end":318.164,"text":"有的縣已經遇到這樣的狀況我們應該要給予一個關心針對財政狀況的一個困難我們現在還有第二個"},{"start":324.844,"end":344.995,"text":"學校電費的部分明年度回歸由地方政府依法編列預算來負擔按教育部現在的說法不是取消補助而是回歸既有的財政機制因為新版的財化法已大幅增加地方的統籌分配稅款理論上地方應該有財力可以去支應電費請問部長"},{"start":346.776,"end":375.675,"text":"现在地方政府负担学校的电费落财政困难教育部会如何因应保障学生的受教权教育部针对财政困难的县市还会有提供什么样的协助请问跟我们报告确实我们当时因应这个财务法我们跟地方22个县市政府我们当然知道地方县市政府明显的一个首长他有许多城市发展的施政理念跟重点那我们也希望说因应这个财务法以后来自于"},{"start":376.155,"end":398.624,"text":"中央補助給地方的這個屬於教育經會的這個部分也能夠讓及早讓這個地方教育局處所長知道所以也希望在整個地方在編列這個教育經會的時候不要去影響到教育局處許多學校教育的運作跟正常的一些這是我們的期望嘛所以我還是要講如果還是遇到了"},{"start":399.264,"end":426.414,"text":"教育部應該要介入啊現在這個狀況難道是放到地方就給他爛嗎不會的我想當然我們教育部一定是跟地方來合作的我想我們台中市應該不會有這麼樣的一個狀況但是全國來看我們還是擔心有些縣市因為現在過度的市權那統籌分配稅款現在增加但是計劃性補儲款相對應的也有可能因為過度市權導致財政的一些困難"},{"start":426.874,"end":456.574,"text":"我想教育部应该秉持着穷不能穷孩子的教育去了解政策在执行的落实那另外我想提到的就是这也是为什么我们在教育议题上持续的关注为什么要一直在帮台中市争取更多的预算就是因为我们长期看到这个问题台中市有一个很重要的教育议题地方希望17所市立高中职可以改回国立因为地方养不起了"},{"start":457.575,"end":481.272,"text":"部長 17所市立高中還有高中職改回國立有沒有機會 台中跟委員報告因為當時台中市要升格改為這一個直轄市的時候我知道2017年改成市立的啊那您知道2017年改為市立以後每年給多少補助款嗎那當然現在以地方來講"},{"start":487.021,"end":502.867,"text":"以地方來講這個希望能夠恢復是不是請這個署長來署長2017年您是台中市的教育局長跟著林佳龍市長迎接了比如說像我們的台中高工"},{"start":504.168,"end":531.371,"text":"变成所以我们给他们有很好的照顾之后那个12年一贯那委员也在那边给我们很多指导嘛对所以我们在不管技职在学生升学那边的学生93%都是台中市的孩子对因此由台中市按照98年的升格改立的计划其实这样接起来是很有承担的但是很有承担对所以觉得那个担很重嘛对不对我的意思是说可能还需要一些协助这个我们会跟地方一起来努力"},{"start":531.391,"end":549.124,"text":"好 今天我們就講到重點請問一下每年給多少的補助款36億 36億對不對 你也有知道嘛非常好人事費就將近34億這些錢到現在有沒有調整過"},{"start":551.257,"end":569.052,"text":"36億的部分自那一年開始都沒有調整過三都都一樣對都沒有調整過所以我們要強調的是這就是教育部的補助款八年過去物價翻倍人事成本上升修繕建築費用暴增這36億卻連一塊"},{"start":572.034,"end":587.129,"text":"都沒有調整你可以看到譬如台中二中為例他有一個空間他們一起努力的他那個空間我們跟台中市一起合作後來還在增補800萬大概學校的額外的支出我們還是會協助不是只有靠那36億"},{"start":588.73,"end":610.822,"text":"對 當然我知道但是我現在要講的是這個補助款到現在沒有漲所以現在將地方的教育壓力的困境我希望不要視而不見去年台中市政府還透支9億台中市政府早就警告過地方的裁員撐不住現在學校一個比一個慘就剛剛您提到的台中二中校務基金從原本的四五千萬花到剩一百萬"},{"start":612.783,"end":635.047,"text":"100萬用到快見底演藝廳蓋了卻好像毛坯屋這就是我們口中所提的教育升級還是教育放生我想地方政府現在根本養不起就像是要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草地方兼顧教育的品質修善校舍照顧師生權益不給補助請問馬兒要怎麼跑"},{"start":637.828,"end":663.709,"text":"所以教育是一個國家最重要的一個投資地方政府不能因為財政能力而失衡我要求教育部針對物價人士成本逐年調升教育的補助額度如果補助不願意調那請部長乾脆收回去嘛改回國力嘛學生不是孤兒啊學校學生受教權不能受影響部長你怎麼說"},{"start":666.771,"end":696.051,"text":"抱歉有些细节跟您补充一下之后部长会做一个政策方向上跟您回应细节上是这样基本上各县市包含台中或台北或台南高雄等等我们都有像社区化军职化等等的计划这些都不是学校运作的单独的成本而已这些我们都会因应时事做变迁的调整这个在补助比例上我们会加高我们在相关的单价上也会提高以上在细节上是在这样子吻合委员的方向"},{"start":696.451,"end":716.263,"text":"那政策上當然個案上我們看到你們一定會隨著建築成本去做調試我想這個我們都知道但我要講的就是每年這36億的補助款我光講這36億就好人事成本就34億那從2017年到現在沒有任何增加這一部分的補助款"},{"start":717.043,"end":734.494,"text":"你不要說個案不要說其他的案我就說這36億這一筆款項所以我是希望今天能夠為他們發聲台中二中我也很感謝國教署給予關懷那目前我們還是希望能夠再持續的為其發聲我希望說這一個部長你要回應一下嗎"},{"start":735.394,"end":752.336,"text":"我想有關我們怎麼樣讓這個地方原來的國立高中變成私立高中確保它的一個運作跟確保它的一個良好的教育品質我想這我們會來努力來跟地方來看怎麼樣有一個更好的機制"},{"start":753.417,"end":772.102,"text":"包含这个经会上我们会后再讨论这个部分我会再继续为他们发声我想刚刚所提到的身心调试假我们照顾的老师近期增订的这个三日调心假对不起调试假身心调试假利益良善但是我想刚刚已经"},{"start":773.522,"end":793.891,"text":"葉委員也提到了7加7加3加3現在開始我們看到三天的身心調試假納入七天試假這樣子呢老師就是會少三天的試假所以我想今天我們一起都為這些老師來請命可不可以把這三天的身心調試假"},{"start":795.291,"end":810.25,"text":"獨立出來還給老師七天試駕的一個權利我想代理教師沒有身心調試駕請問部長代理教師可以準用嗎我們當然是樂觀其成樂觀其成什麼時候會有具體的作為"},{"start":813.476,"end":840.601,"text":"跟委員報告代理教師三個月以上代理教室事實上他其實是準用行政院的那個月聘僱給價辦法那行政院約聘僱的給價辦法事實上在在10月10號也已經已經把10月10號已經修正了所以代理教師基本上適用生性調適教室沒有任何好這一部分我們會再持續追蹤實際的落實到底有什麼樣的問題最後一題早尾拜託一下我想"},{"start":841.641,"end":858.561,"text":"我要跟您探討的是技術型的教師2014年賴清德總統在一個活動上表示台灣是海洋國家我們都是海洋的公民還要用海洋豐富人民的生活並投入海洋科技的研究讓產業能夠更多項的一個發展"},{"start":859.262,"end":880.851,"text":"這不僅點出教育海洋的一個長期佈局的重要性凸顯技職體系中海事類科在培育人才能夠促進海洋產業升級扮演的核心教育部長台灣四周都是海洋總統也說要探索海洋那部長你知道高中職的部分台灣有幾所海事學校嗎"},{"start":882.638,"end":896.22,"text":"現在全國有六所海事學校好謝謝你您非常清楚那我就不再贅述是哪六所但是部長您知道航海輪機特殊的海事類科合格教師近幾年有多少嗎"},{"start":899.321,"end":919.597,"text":"我直接公佈近幾年的分別是112年8位113年6位114年5位合格教師證是逐年減少這些人數以水產的養殖為主所以我們要講的是部長海事學校就是以培養海事相關人才"},{"start":920.778,"end":943.199,"text":"為主當然不是只有水產養殖航海輪機還有航海輪機的人才要從哪裡培養我們要一直想辦法去佈局啊所以許多的私校努力求生存以海市學校為例台灣的海洋國家要探索海洋六所海市學校夠不夠"},{"start":945.694,"end":965.011,"text":"我想更重要的是我們在這個海事人才的培養當時去年進來我就事實上也擔心我們海事人才上可能這一個人才不小心會被中斷所以才會說有一個海事學校裡面類似這樣海事人才能夠對接職業譬如說海洋科大類似這樣的"},{"start":966.112,"end":993.572,"text":"的這樣一個讓他能夠升學管道能夠暢通這事實上是我們也一直在努力的我講啦反正就是合格證教師這麼少如果教師合格率沒有50%的話會被專案如果連兩年都被專案的話就會被退場此規範對於特殊類科會有師生比偏低的問題所以請問部長針對特殊科目領域的技術型教師有沒有放寬的空間您覺得呢"},{"start":995.213,"end":1021.367,"text":"這謝謝委員的一個提醒我想我們內部來我們再來看這題我會追因為產業人才一定要讓他能夠永續發展因為我們已經看到這樣困境了嘛幫他們發聲也是為我們台灣這些技術型人才甚至是未來培養這些學生最重要的一個立即點因為我們確實需要這個人才然後我們怎麼樣從這個產業來引用人才讓他能夠來指導所以我希望能夠泛寬我們會後討論謝謝"},{"start":1024.519,"end":1027.545,"text":"謝謝羅廷維委員請警政官員回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":437,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時44分）好，謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，剛剛我們在下面看到板東之虎葉元之的質詢，為我們教育發聲。","部長，好久不見啦！首先先恭喜部長在今年8月下旬的內閣小改組留任下來，還記得我上一次也給你許多的鼓勵，教育是百年大業，相信應該還有很多的政策及法案要推動。不曉得這個會期，部長對政務的推動有沒有什麼想法？有沒有什麼政策一定要完成、法案要完成？可不可以簡單說明。"],["鄭部長英耀：第一個，最簡單的就是希望提供給學校、中小學老師有一個更安穩、更值得尊敬的工作環境，也就是校事會議一定要優先來改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，校事會議是我們非常關注的，年底之前可以提出具體的一些方案嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我目前是設定這個期限，給自己一個自我要求。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，因為剛剛我有聽到您對於原本是要處理一些不適任教師，但大大小小的事務都進入到校事會議，也衍生出許多的問題，不管是社會的輿論，甚至是您來自教育界，我想這個您都很清楚，那您覺得目前各地的訪談足夠嗎？要再增加嗎？還是已經收攏這些相關的意見了？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上在我進來之前，在去年520，我對這個校事會議已經有一個初步的輪廓，也就是當我決定要進來教育部的時候，我跟地方第一線的一些校長、家長及老師有一定的接觸。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，有一定的訪談，只是我擔心訪談的內容會不會不夠？要不要再增加？你再考慮。但我想，今天你有講到重點，第一，不管是教師的環境，甚至我們之前在講的教師的特教加給要增加，因為他們有多如牛毛的工作，甚至是為鐘點老師、代理教師來發聲，到剛剛所提到的身心調適假，我們都希望在未來能夠有更具體的一些做法，來捍衛他們的工作權益。這個部分我希望不管是校事會議，您給自己的期限是在年底，剛剛所提到的身心調適假，還有所謂的特教，或者是老師的加給，以及鐘點老師等這個部分的權益，是不是您也可以給我們一些期限呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：應該這麼講，老師對身心調適假的期待，我們充分瞭解，也希望在未來能夠朝那一個方向來努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：半年，還是年底？"],["鄭部長英耀：這部分我必須要坦白從寬，從整個國家大的一個運作，當然這個不同的一些……"],["羅委員廷瑋：牽一髮動全身啦！我都知道！"],["鄭部長英耀：所以這個部分在整個體制上，我們當然會繼續努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所有的老師不希望看到官員只是回答研議，但是完全沒有動作。"],["鄭部長英耀：不會啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我希望在這個過程當中，有具體的……"],["鄭部長英耀：包含老師的許多……事實上都是我們念茲在茲，我們一直在努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好的，我先就兩個財劃法修法後的問題請教：首先是三章一Q的部分，現在的政策是財劃法修正以後，中央將不再補助學校午餐三章一Q的獎勵金，改由地方政府自行增加統籌分配稅款後的編列預算負擔。財劃法修正後，讓地方政府自行投入，可能會導致差距擴大，部分地方財力較弱的縣市，是否會影響學校營養午餐的品質？這個你有掌握嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是不是請署長說明？"],["羅委員廷瑋：署長請說。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員。這個38億或是還有偏鄉廚房跟弱勢學生21億，這74億如果到縣市的話，那我們都會要求這個部分要回編原來的數額。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這個一定要全面的去瞭解及控管。財劃法在修法的初期我們都能夠瞭解，我們是希望地方政府能夠擁有更多的資源。在整體財劃法修法以後，配套措施不只是釋出相對應的預算，中央也釋放相對應應該負擔的責任。我想配套已經做好，但是我們看到不管是統籌分配款或者是地方現在的計畫性補助款，中央也有自己的做法，有可能會導致地方在財劃法立意良善希望增加資源的前提之下，因中央過度所做的配套反而對應的是被剝削了。我想這個部分不應該在這邊全盤討論，但是就現在說的三章一Q，如果有的地方政府、有的縣已經遇到這樣的狀況，我們應該要給予關心。","針對財政狀況的困難，現在還有第二個，學校電費的部分，明年度回歸由地方政府依法編列預算來負擔。按教育部現在的說法，不是取消補助，而是回歸既有的財政機制，因為新版的財劃法已大幅增加地方的統籌分配稅款，理論上地方應該有財力可以去支應電費。請問部長，現在地方政府負擔學校電費，如果財政困難，教育部會如何因應以保障學生的受教權？教育部針對財政困難的縣市，還會提供什麼樣的協助？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，當時因應財劃法跟22個地方縣市政府，我們當然知道地方縣市政府民選的首長，他有許多城市發展的施政理念跟重點，我們也希望因應財劃法以後，來自於中央補助給地方屬於教育經費的部分，能夠及早讓地方教育局處首長知道，希望地方在編列教育經費的時候，不要去影響到教育局處許多學校教育的運作跟正常的一些……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這是我們的期望嘛！所以我還是要講，如果還是遇到了，教育部應該要介入啊！現在這個狀況，難道是放到地方就給它爛嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不會的，當然我們教育部一定是跟地方來合作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想我們臺中市應該不會有這樣的狀況，但是全國來看，我們還是擔心有些縣市因為現在過度的釋權，雖然統籌分配稅款增加，但是計畫性補助款相對應的，也有可能因為過度釋權而導致財政的一些困難，我想教育部應該秉持著窮不能窮孩子的教育，去瞭解政策在執行的落實。","另外，我想提到的是，這也是為什麼我們在教育議題上持續地關注，為什麼要一直幫臺中市爭取更多的預算？就是因為我們長期看到這個問題，臺中市有一個很重要的教育議題，地方希望17所市立高中職可以改回國立，因為地方養不起了。部長，臺中17所市立高中職改回國立有沒有機會？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為當時臺中市要升格改為直轄市的時候……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，2017年改成市立的，那您知道2017年改為市立以後，每年給多少補助款嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：在98年的時候，它這裡邊就是一個條件啦！當然現在以地方來講是希望能夠回復。是不是請署長來說明？"],["羅委員廷瑋：署長，2017年您是臺中市的教育局長。"],["彭署長富源：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：跟著林佳龍市長迎接了比如說我們的臺中高工從國立變成……"],["彭署長富源：所以我們給他們有很好的照顧之後，關於12年一貫，委員也在那邊給我們很多指導。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["彭署長富源：所以我們不管在技職、在學生升學，那邊的學生93%都是臺中市的孩子，所以因此由臺中市按照98年的升格改隸計畫，其實這樣接起來是很有承擔的，但是可能還是需要很多……"],["羅委員廷瑋：很有承擔？所以你也覺得那個擔很重，對不對？"],["彭署長富源：沒有，我的意思是說，可能還需要一些協助，這個我們會跟地方一起來努力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，今天我們就講到重點，請問一下，每年給多少補助款？您有印象嗎？"],["彭署長富源：36億。"],["羅委員廷瑋：36億，您也知道嘛！非常好。人事費就將近34億，這些錢到現在有沒有調整過？"],["彭署長富源：36億的部分，自那一年開始是一直維持著。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都沒有調整過。"],["彭署長富源：三都都一樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，都沒有調整過。"],["彭署長富源：新北、桃園、臺中，都一樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們要強調的是，這就是教育部的補助款，8年過去，物價翻倍，人事成本上升，建築修繕費用暴增，這36億卻連1塊都沒有調整。"],["彭署長富源：委員，您可以看到，譬如以臺中二中為例，它有一個空間是我們一起努力的，它那個空間是我們跟臺中市一起合作，後來還再增補800萬，學校的額外支出我們還是會協助，不是只有靠那36億。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，當然，我知道。但是我現在要講的是這個補助款到現在沒有漲，對於地方教育壓力的困境我希望不要視而不見。去年臺中市政府還透支9億，臺中市政府早就警告過地方的財源撐不住，現在學校一個比一個慘，就剛剛您提到的臺中二中，校務基金從原本的四、五千萬花到剩100萬，用到快見底，演藝廳蓋了卻好像毛胚屋，這就是我們口中所提的教育升級，還是教育放生？地方政府現在根本養不起，就像是要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草，地方兼顧教育的品質，修繕校舍，照顧師生權益，不給錢不給補助，請問馬兒要怎麼跑？","教育是國家最重要的投資，地方政府不能因為財政能力而失衡。我要求教育部針對物價、人事、成本逐年調升教育的補助額度，如果補助不願意調，那就請部長乾脆收回去改回國立嘛！學生不是孤兒啊！學校、學生受教權不能受影響。部長，您怎麼說？"],["彭署長富源：抱歉，有一些細節跟您補充之後，部長會做一個政策方向上的回應。","細節上是這樣，基本上各縣市包含臺中、臺北、臺南、高雄等等，我們都有社區化、均質化等等的計畫，這一些都不是學校運作那個單獨的成本而已，我們都會因應時事做變遷的調整，在補助比例上我們會加高，在相關的單價上也會提高，以上。","在細節上是這樣子，吻合委員的方向。至於政策上……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然個案上，我們看到你們一定會隨著建築成本去調適，這個我們都知道，但我要講的就是每年這36億的補助款，我光講這36億就好，人事成本就34億，從2017年到現在這部分的補助款沒有任何增加。","你不要說個案，不要說其他的案，我就說36億這一筆款項，我是希望今天能夠為他們發聲，我也很感謝國教署對於臺中二中給予關懷，目前我們還是希望能夠再持續地為其發聲。部長，您要回應一下嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：有關原來的國立高中變成市立高中，要怎麼樣確保它的運作跟確保它良好的教育品質，這個我們會來努力，跟地方來看怎麼樣有一個更好的機制，包含經費上我們怎樣來協助。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們會後再討論，這個部分我會繼續為他們發聲。","我想剛剛所提到的身心調適假，我們為了照顧老師，近期增訂3日身心調適假，立意良善，但是剛才葉委員也提到了，7加7加3加3，現在開始我們看到3天的身心調適假納入7天事假，這樣子老師就會少3天事假，所以今天我們一起為這些老師來請命，可不可以把這3天身心調適假獨立出來，還給老師7天事假的權利？代理教師沒有身心調適假，請問部長，代理教師可以準用嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當然是樂觀其成。"],["羅委員廷瑋：樂觀其成，什麼時候會有具體的作為？"],["林處長建璋：跟委員報告，3個月以上的代理教師事實上是準用行政院的約聘僱人員給假辦法，行政院的約聘僱人員給假辦法在10月10日也已經有修正。"],["羅委員廷瑋：10月10日。"],["林處長建璋：已經修正了，所以代理教師基本上適用身心調適假沒有任何問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這一部分我們會再持續追蹤實際落實到底有什麼樣的問題。","最後一題，召委，拜託一下。我要跟您探討的是技術型的教師，2014年賴清德總統在一個活動上表示，臺灣是海洋國家，我們都是海洋的公民，還要用海洋豐富人民的生活，並投入海洋科技的研究，讓產業能夠往更多面向發展。這不僅點出海洋教育長期布局的重要性，也凸顯技職體系中，海事類科培育人才能夠促進海洋產業升級，扮演核心教育。臺灣四周都是海洋，總統也說要探索海洋，部長知道在高中職的部分，臺灣有幾所海事學校嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：現在全國有6所海事學校。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝你。您非常清楚，我就不再贅述是哪6所，但是部長，您知道航海、輪機，特殊的海事類科合格教師近幾年有多少嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個會後……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我直接公布，近幾年分別是112年8位、113年6位、114年5位，合格教師證逐年減少，這些人數以水產養殖的為主。部長，我們要講的是海事學校就是以培養海事相關人才為主，當然不是只有水產養殖，還有航海、輪機，航海、輪機的人才要從哪裡培養？我們要一直想辦法去布局，所以許多私校努力求生存，以海事學校為例，臺灣是海洋國家，要探索海洋，6所海事學校夠不夠？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想更重要的是我們在海事人才的培養，事實上，我去年進來也擔心我們海事人才可能不小心會被中斷，所以才會說有一個類似海事學校裡面海事人才能夠直接對接的，譬如海洋科大，類似這樣的，讓他的升學管道能夠暢通，這個事實上是我們也一直在努力的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：反正有合格證的教師這麼少，如果教師合格率沒有50%的話，會被專案，如果連兩年都被專案的話，就會被退場，此規範對於特殊類科會有師生比偏低的問題，所以請問部長，針對特殊科目領域的技術型教師，有沒有放寬的空間，您覺得呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，我想我們內部再來看怎麼樣……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這一題我會追……"],["鄭部長英耀：因為產業人才一定要能夠永續發展……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我也希望你要給我回復，因為我們已經看到這樣的困境了，幫他們發聲，也是為臺灣這些技術型人才，甚至是未來培養這些學生最重要的一個利基點，拜託！"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們確實需要這個人才，我們再來看怎麼樣從產業引進人才，讓他能夠來指導我們的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我希望能夠放寬，我們會後討論，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員，請行政官員回座。","現在請萬美玲委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db67cbfe7707877ceba6c95259d4de0cc173471e8ca08e6d68e3eccb88f554b3b0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:55:18 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部長辛苦了委員好不會被冷卻應該我先追蹤一下剛剛委員有關心的這個教師身心調試假因為一方面上路之後有校長也反應有點擔心說會不會造成說這個校園管理的部分但一方面我想身心調試假它是一個正向看待就是要讓教師們能夠有一個身心調試所以如果說老師請身心調試假的話會不會影響他的年度考積"},{"start":45.724,"end":71.484,"text":"這當然我們依法不會影響他的考機一定要明確的宣示而且不能拒絕是 因為本席剛剛在未還委員會質詢勞動部我問這個航空公司最近有那個請假聽說連航空公司都說請病假跟試假都要扣那個考機我想勞動部應該要處理勞動部的部分但是拉回來我們自己教師的考機不會受有沒有請身心調試假而影響"},{"start":72.424,"end":91.957,"text":"這我們也跟地方一定會跟地方縣市教育局處還有學校在這個部分要說得非常清楚好那另外這個深信討試駕上路之後也會滾動式檢討我們也希望是說來釐清一下說會不會未來造成說校園裡面的一些管理啊或者說人人手的一個部分好不好那這"},{"start":93.178,"end":110.764,"text":"這再請我們滾動檢討來 再來我有看到是說我們現在希望就去年我們有做公聽會就是針對這個學校高中以下學校學生攜帶行動載具也就是手機啊到校管理的一個準則那本來是說9月會提出來後來又有點"},{"start":112.162,"end":134.733,"text":"確實跟我們報告因為確實國中以下大概共識很強沒有問題現在對高中高中子這裡邊確實他還有一些因為包含學生團體認為他們還是比較成熟所以他們應該相對給他們有一個更大的空間但是我們本來當時的一個規劃就是授權學校"},{"start":135.433,"end":164,"text":"跟老師還有家長還有學生一起討論然後訂定以後這個學校各學校因地制宜他去訂立一些規範因為確實手機依賴是有彈性的來做調整但是大方向跟原則是希望是國小國中的部分有比較多的等於說國小國中這邊有比較明顯的一個規範但是還是學校裡面去討論一個管理的一個辦法"},{"start":164.48,"end":184.733,"text":"那高中這邊希望能夠有更大的一個彈性但是我們還是要把修正的這個草案出來能夠讓各學校全國學校來去做了解我們現在到的原則啊不然這不就是又走回頭路又回到原點了嗎因為其實現行還沒有這個我們本來9月要施行出來之前現行就是讓各學校自己決定啊是 沒有錯就我"},{"start":186.854,"end":215.282,"text":"我本身一个教育的工作者我在看国际的许多的研究事实上我是非常担心我们青少年新世代他们因为手机上所造成的一些负面影响对他身心未来的发展事实上是不利的所以我们也希望说学校里边怎么样不增加学校额外的一些负担而能够透过一个民主化的一个机制建立一个共识有一个大家共同尊重"},{"start":215.302,"end":230.852,"text":"部長點到跟本席過去的一個研究以及觀察也是一樣因為看到越來越多一些歐美國家本席記得去年的時候我也在這邊質詢過您就說人家國家已經有在做了我們不用花成本去實驗組跟對照組那我們就應該去參考人家國家"},{"start":232.193,"end":256.554,"text":"禁止使用手機之後有什麼樣好的地方以及有什麼樣不好的地方來去做我們政策的一個研擬甚至本席有注意到2026年南韓都已經有通過法令說要求學校高中以下的學校是禁止使用手機這個是南韓已經通過三讀法令通過所以說我們他是暗支持可以錯工我們應該要來了解這樣的狀況"},{"start":258.155,"end":271.582,"text":"進一步什麼時候我們可以把這個相關的新的草案這邊來提出來我們要不要公布一個新的草案還是說其實就這樣子放著因為本來是說9月要推出啊"},{"start":273.305,"end":299.41,"text":"我想這個我們再來跟這個地方裡面有一個更大的一個共識我們一定會提出來因為確實像澳洲的新南威爾斯有超過一萬個的這個中小學校長他們也都看到手機的一個這個一定程度的這個管理的時候對學生的學習的專注還有學習的表現還有許多的這個行為規劃事實上都在往好的畫面在發展好"},{"start":299.83,"end":323.929,"text":"部長所以本學還是就是說教育部這邊還是要有一個比較積極的態度以及讓各學校有規則可循來去做那最後一分鐘因為有提到是說早上您也提到手機使用是一回事但是內容是一回事您也提到是說短影音對於學生的這個發展其實是不利的尤其太早年齡其實我們也看到確實有這樣的科學數據有許多的內容好"},{"start":324.369,"end":339.886,"text":"但是如果說講短影音的話它就不只只限我現在沒有幫任何一家公司講話但是如果說是講短影音的話就不只只限TikTok是它還包括其實YouTube它現在也有推短影音是包括Facebook其實它現在也有短影音我們是考量它的內容是"},{"start":340.467,"end":365.901,"text":"所以本席現在要問的是說因為早上我在交通委員會為質詢速發部長我問說你進不進 知不支持禁止Ttalk速發部長講的是說其實他是言論自由但是如果以保護兒少的觀點我要求他找衛福部 找教育部來溝通他是說建議是校園裡面的公有網路用屏障的方式讓學生不要用公有網路能夠連結上"},{"start":367.222,"end":383.489,"text":"TikTok是但如果說是保護兒少的話那就不只僅限TikTok甚至包含有一些交友軟體我想部長你有看過很多國外的一個研究更了解其實有一些交友網站上面他沒有設限的情況下有人實驗"},{"start":385.11,"end":411.236,"text":"貼一個12歲左右的女同女學童的大頭照結果短短說一天裡面收到上百通的成年男子的交友邀約那其實某種程度上這在還沒有年齡到成熟的一個情況下這是一個交友陷阱也是一個潛在的危險那是不是應該也要針對這些比較有可能危險的APP或說應該要分解APP"},{"start":412.556,"end":429.482,"text":"討論出來在校園裡面的公有網路裡面應該 該禁止要禁止感謝委員提醒確實我們目前是針對有一些不宜的或者不適當內容只要有人有這個卷舉我們會在系統上就直接把它做一些隔離"},{"start":430.442,"end":449.484,"text":"但是這個我講的是全學全台灣學校那我們要再怎麼檢舉是跟教育部檢舉嗎還是幾多的短影很多的內容我們執筆論還沒有辦法馬上立即對每一個都能夠清楚對啦 不是 部長所以本席是在講的是說"},{"start":451.038,"end":466.248,"text":"譬如說Ttalk它其實它也是一個平台給各方使用者丟內容所以我現在不是探討內容的部分因為探討內容探討不完但是現在我講的是說如果說你們認為是短影音保護兒少那可能短影音的幾個"},{"start":467.509,"end":494.632,"text":"APP都要一起來做檢討但我講如果以保護兒少為前提最出發點的話那其實不只短影音的平台還包括交友平台尤其是交友平台我本身是兩個女兒的父親我其實當然男童女童都一樣我們要以保護兒少的立場的話我們就應該去看到問題來去做根本的預防所以說有一些APP才會有年齡分級制"},{"start":496.08,"end":515.767,"text":"能不能部長 速發部 衛福部跟教育部三個部會來做一個討論針對哪一些APP確實即便它上架是年齡可能是六歲以上就可以使用但是它真的有潛在的危險的部分來去做一個討論那適時的應該要遮蔽 應該要訂出一個規範"},{"start":520.514,"end":549.133,"text":"跟委員這邊很快回應就是有關於那個抖音跟小紅書是因為行政院有頒布就是國家自動安全的一個原則所以是根據這一個因為它是大陸製的一個自動產品然後蓋委員提的的確是就是說在不當內容防護的部分因為我們台灣學術網路有一個通報機制所以只要不當內容都會屏蔽然後會後我們會照委員所指示的"},{"start":549.853,"end":576.176,"text":"就是所建議的就是跟因為兒少的這個權益跟健康是衛福部所主管所以我們會主動聯繫衛福部看看就這件事情還有抒發部就這件事情我們怎麼樣做更好的合作好那再麻煩部長也請這邊積極的一個辦理那年底前我還在追這個議題也希望有成果都請讓北京辦公室了解謝謝委員謝謝部長"},{"start":578.051,"end":580.377,"text":"謝謝彭邦凱委員還有謝謝部長請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1188,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時55分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長辛苦了，現在已經是下午快2點了。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好，應該的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先follow一下剛剛委員有關心的教師身心調適假，因為在制度上路之後，有校長也反映有點擔心會不會對校園管理部分造成影響，但我想身心調適假是應該被正向看待的，就是要讓教師們能夠有身心調適，所以想先請問部長，如果老師請身心調適假的話，會不會影響他的年度考績？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然，依法這個是不會影響考績的。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，一定要明確的宣示嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：而且不能拒絕。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，因為本席剛在衛環委員會質詢勞動部有關航空公司最近發生的請假事件，聽說連航空公司請病假跟事假都要扣考績，我想勞動部應該要去處理勞動部的部分，但是拉回來，我們自己教師的考績不會受有沒有請身心調適假而影響，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不會的，我們一定會跟地方縣市教育局處及學校在這個部分說得非常清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，另外就是身心調適假上路之後也會滾動式檢討，我們也希望釐清一下這個會不會在未來造成校園裡面的一些管理或是人手部分的問題，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，謝謝委員提醒。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個再請你們要滾動檢討。","再來，我有看到去年我們有舉行公聽會，就是針對修正「高級中等以下學校校園行動載具使用原則」，也就是手機啦，本來是說9月會提出來，後來又有點需要研議。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，因為確實在國中以下大概共識很強沒有問題，現在是高中職這邊確實還有一些……因為包含學生團體認為他們比較成熟，所以應該相對給他們有一個更大的空間。本來我們當時的規劃就是授權學校、老師、家長還有學生一起討論，然後去訂定，各個學校因地制宜的去訂定一些規範，因為確實手機依賴……"],["洪委員孟楷：是有彈性的來做調整，但是大方向跟原則是希望是國小國中的部分……"],["鄭部長英耀：等於說國小國中這邊有比較明顯的規範，但還是由學校去討論一個管理的辦法，至於高中這邊希望能夠有更大的彈性。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我們還是要把修正的草案提出來，能夠讓全國各學校了解我們現在的原則啊，不然這不就是又走回頭路、又回到原點了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我想……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為在我們預計9月要提出來施行之前，現行作法就是讓各學校自己決定啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：是，沒有錯，就我本身是教育工作者，我看到國際的許多研究，事實上，我非常擔心我們青少年新世代因為手機所造成的一些負面影響，對他身心未來的發展是不利的，所以我們也希望學校在不增加額外的一些負擔下，能夠透過一個民主化的機制去建立共識，有一個大家共同能夠遵循的依據。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長點到跟本席過去的一個研究及觀察是一樣的，因為看到越來越多一些歐美國家，本席記得去年的時候我也在這邊質詢過您，人家的國家已經有在做了，我們不用花成本去做實驗組跟對照組，我們就應該參考其他國家在禁止使用手機之後有什麼樣好的地方以及有什麼樣不好的地方，然後去做我們政策的研擬。甚至本席有注意到2026年南韓都已經通過法令要求高中以下學校禁止使用手機……"],["鄭部長英耀：全面禁止。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個是南韓已經三讀通過的法令。"],["鄭部長英耀：前一陣子通過的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以它山之石可以為錯，我們應該要來了解這樣的狀況。更進一步，什麼時候我們可以把相關新的草案提出來？我們要不要公布一個新的草案，還是就這樣子放著？因為本來是說9月要推出啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：對於這個部分，我們跟地方達成更大的共識後一定會提出來，因為確實像澳洲的新南威爾斯有超過1萬個中小學校長也都看到對手機做一定程度管理後，學生的學習專注、學習表現及許多行為規範上事實上都在往好方面在發展。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，所以本席還是希望教育部這邊要有一個比較積極的態度，以及要讓各學校有規則可循。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後1分鐘，因為早上您也提到，手機使用是一回事，但是內容是一回事，您也提到短影音對於學生的發展其實是不利的，尤其年齡太早去接觸，我們確實有看到這樣的科學數據……"],["鄭部長英耀：有許多的內容可能是負面的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，但是如果講短影音的話，我現在沒有幫任何一家公司講話，但如果是講短影音的話，就不只限於TikTok，還包括YouTube現在也有推短影音，包括Facebook現在也有短影音。"],["鄭部長英耀：主要我們是考量它的內容。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席現在要問的是，早上我在交通委員會質詢時也問了數發部長支不支持禁止TikTok？數發部長說那是言論自由，但是如果以保護兒少的觀點，我要求他找衛福部、教育部來溝通，他是建議校園裡面的公有網路用屏障的方式，讓學生不要用公有網路去連結上TikTok。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們目前確實已經這樣做……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但如果是保護兒少的話，那就不只僅限TikTok，甚至包含一些交友軟體，我想部長有看過很多國外的研究，應該更了解，其實一些交友網站在沒有設限的情況下，有人實驗貼一個12歲左右女學童的大頭照，結果短短一天裡面收到上百通成年男子的交友邀約，其實某種程度上，在年齡還不到成熟的情況下，這是一個交友陷阱，也是一個潛在的危險，是不是應該也要針對這些比較有可能危險的app或是應該要分級的app去討論出來，在校園的公有網路應該禁止的就要禁止。"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員提醒，確實，我們目前也是針對一些不宜的或者不適當內容的，只要有人檢舉，我們會在系統上就直接做一些隔離。"],["洪委員孟楷：我講的是全臺灣學校耶，我們要怎麼檢舉？是跟教育部檢舉嗎？還是……"],["鄭部長英耀：對於許多短影音的內容，持平而論，我們還沒有辦法馬上、立即的對每一個內容都能夠清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啦！部長，所以本席現在講的是說，譬如TikTok其實也只是一個平臺，給各方使用者丟內容。所以我現在不是探討內容的部分，因為探討內容探討不完，但是現在我講的是，如果你們認為要針對短影音，為了保護兒少，可能短影音的幾個app都要一起來做檢討，而我講的是如果以保護兒少為前提、為出發點的話，其實不只短影音平臺，還包括交友平臺，尤其是交友平臺。我本身是兩個女兒的父親，當然男童女童都一樣，我們以保護兒少的立場來說，我們就應該去看到問題，並且要去做根本的預防，所以有一些app才會有年齡分級制嘛！部長，能不能數發部、衛福部跟教育部三個部會一起去做一個討論，針對哪一些app，即便上架的是可能6歲以上就可以使用，但是真的有潛在危險的部分，要去做一個討論，適時的、應該要遮蔽的就應該要訂出規範。"],["吳司長穎沺：跟委員回應，關於抖音跟小紅書，是依據行政院頒布的國家資通安全原則，因為那是大陸製的資通產品。然後剛才委員提的，的確是，就是在不當內容防護的部分，因為我們臺灣學術網路有一個通報機制，只要有不當內容都會屏蔽，會後我們會照委員所指示及建議的，因為兒少的權益跟健康是衛福部所主管，所以我們會主動聯繫衛福部還有數發部，看看就這件事情我們要怎麼樣做更好的合作。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，再麻煩部長，也請你們積極去辦理。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["洪委員孟楷：年底前我還會追這個議題，也希望有成果都請讓本席辦公室了解。謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員，謝謝部長，請回座。","現在請翁曉玲委員質詢，翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","下一位請蘇清泉委員質詢，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","下一位請林楚茵委員質詢，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員質詢，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","請羅明才委員質詢，羅明才委員，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員質詢，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢。","另有林德福、高金素梅及翁曉玲委員提出書面質詢，請委員會再轉教育部及相關單位。","今天會議作以下決定：報告及質詢完畢。委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄並刊登公報；對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db66fc4ff00c4e2048d6c95259d4de0cc170febda90f1cdde825e84f1de4e0a11165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"13:49:26 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我想因為確實陳如瑋剛才所提的有一些家長因為實驗教育它的多樣性跟它的很多的課程它比較能夠考慮到個人的需求所以家長會希望當他的這個小孩子有需要有一些特別的一些幫助的時候部長我想問的是說您覺得我們是不是要給他更多的支持我想我們會因為接下來來講我們也會有一些額外的一些經費上的一些幫助"},{"start":106.665,"end":127.886,"text":"那個部長我先跟你重回歷史一下複述一下歷史其實這個題目在去年六月就已經問過了因為呢我們承接了這麼多的孩子可是我們給的社交資源非常非常實驗教育的社交資源是非常非常不足的那其實已經一整年過去了我114年的預算提案又再度的講到這件事情那我想剛剛部長也提到說我們可以給予支持"},{"start":128.566,"end":155.147,"text":"那我希望這個支持是更務實的支持也就是說我們今年我收到的預算回文就是說我們有邀請到跟地方來討論我們有跟相關團體討論那今天我們是不是可以來討論時程因為已經給了一年的時間我們可不可以在年底前年底前提出實驗教育中特殊學生的特教需求我們來編列經費支持我們現在每個學生已經有補助1.2萬"},{"start":157.628,"end":176.233,"text":"現在每個學生已經有編列所以是說明年就會開始執行嗎?14學年 現在就在執行了會後我們把資料給委員我們有兩件事情在做 第一個但是之前是講的是低收入跟中低收入戶啊特殊需求的學生那個時候4月的時候"},{"start":178.934,"end":195.436,"text":"那實際上在8月1號以後就執行了那麼第二點地方政府我們還外加10萬元去處理這些特教行政實驗教育的部分這個學年度這個學年度已經開始了做了兩項新增的工作會後我們整理給委員"},{"start":196.297,"end":209.969,"text":"好 謝謝 也非常謝謝教育部對於特殊教育在CN教育面的特殊生的資源投注接下來我要請教有關於才化法的影響特別是對於偏鄉教育的部分"},{"start":213.112,"end":239.885,"text":"首先呢因為我想大家今天早上也非常多國民黨的委員都非常關心到底這個才化法對於地方的影響到底是什麼那我自己這段時間也遇到了許多的家長團體都在問我說那個午餐費為什麼中央不出啦等等的還有這個偏鄉教育還有那個教師的一些薪資補貼那會不會出會不會有影響等等的所以我也想就這一題來跟部長做一個請教就是說"},{"start":241.025,"end":264.83,"text":"我知道以營養務生來說其實這個在台北跟新北都說他們會去編列了但是呢台中盧市長還是說他不會去編列他是說他財政充裕一定願意做那我想問一下我們是不是已經跟地方都已經溝通過了呢這點我想要再次確認一下是不是已經都確認過了"},{"start":268.303,"end":297.146,"text":"是 跟委員報告我想說這個財化法有關於一些跟地方之間的財源調配的事情包括在行政院或行政院主義總署從八月中的時候其實都已經有召開過四次的協調會議所以地方都已經溝通所以都已經清楚傳遞這個訊息了 對嗎對 地方政府應該都知道有哪一些的補助款可能中央已經沒有辦法再繼續負擔而必須要協調地方政府能夠幫忙分攤"},{"start":298.544,"end":318.21,"text":"好喔 那我想就是說外面有傳報導也是說教育部的預算比跟今年度相比我們減少了908億元那教育部給我的是79億元那我想知道這個差別到底是在哪裡然後還有這個到底這個減少的地方到底是在哪些部分可不可以簡單做個說明"},{"start":321.813,"end":341.429,"text":"是跟委員說明一下就是這裡面提到的減少到那個900億元他大概就是因為沒有算到就是行政院還有分配給交易部的一塊813億元他們沒有去算到那個部分就對了了解所以整體來說是79億元沒錯嘛對不對那79億元更是哪些項目呢簡單來說"},{"start":345.99,"end":372.408,"text":"79億元的話裡面大概最大的項目就是也是針對地方政府的補助地方政府的補助有減少了160幾億元這是裡面最大的一個項目但是其實地方聽起來就是地方拿了蠻多錢走的嘛那我覺得現在應該要問的是說那地方拿了這些錢到底去做了什麼嘛對不對拿了這些錢因為據我所知台北跟新北都可以編為什麼台中不能編那據我所知呢好像現在台中"},{"start":373.028,"end":391.021,"text":"現在已經在審相關的預算我說各縣市政府已經在審預算可是台中好像並沒有把這些新增的部分加進去我覺得最要去問的是那到底台中市你們要拿這些錢去做什麼為什麼要苦孩子那再來還有一個我覺得我也想跟部長請教就是說如果說今天"},{"start":393.035,"end":404.232,"text":"我們先講到這個我們聽起來就是如果地方政府沒有把經費放在教育經費的話那受害的就是孩子我們有任何的手段可以阻止嗎"},{"start":407.506,"end":422.983,"text":"跟我們報告確實當時因應財務法我們也跟地方縣市政府教育局做這樣的一個討論就是說當教育部原來在一般補助裡邊行政已經下去了等於"},{"start":423.924,"end":443.449,"text":"這裡邊原來是包含我們原來政策的推動這個我們會告訴他哪些銀額對我知道但是他不做呢我們還有什麼手段可以來守護我們的孩子嗎跟地方縣市教育局局長提醒他們說這些錢本來行政就用一般補助下去了那這時候你"},{"start":445.289,"end":464.194,"text":"聽起來好像就是勸要怎麼樣把這個經費能夠落實編在地方的教育事務上我想這個我們是也有意思的一個但是我聽起來我覺得好像是柔性的勸說那我提供一個想法給部長來做一個討論就是說特別我關心這個偏鄉學生的教育權"},{"start":465.094,"end":488.828,"text":"因為115年我們有編列相關的教育經費像是偏鄉學校宿舍修繕甚至偏鄉教育的專業教師人力的補足這個在偏鄉條例實施之後都有專案的經費但是接下來從明年開始我們到底我們的中央補助的經費會不會因此而減少呢那我們114年補助的18億那明年度的偏鄉學校又該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":493.223,"end":512.888,"text":"跟委員報告在偏鄉這一個部分基本上我們教育部還是會有一個比較大的來一個協助譬如說我最近到各偏鄉地區去走那我們也發現了要讓老師留下來就學生的老師的宿舍有一些年久失修沒錯那我們怎麼樣優先來補助對這一個來改善"},{"start":515.769,"end":534.963,"text":"我想最近我不管到花蓮到屏東我們都發現這樣相同的問題包含台東我們都會優先來協助地方來中小學來做一些教室宿舍的改善但是聽起來說我們在偏鄉的補助上面還是會維持一定的比例維持一定的一個優先來做協助"},{"start":538.345,"end":563.064,"text":"好 那部長我也想請教就是說如果說我們有沒有機會來推動一個修法就是地方教育經費最低比例來避免教育被犧牲讓這件事情來入法才能夠去確保我們的教育經費分到了地方之後不會受到影響這個部分部長是不是可以去做一個研議來思考一下"},{"start":565.004,"end":591.798,"text":"委員報告教育這一個全國的教育的總預算它事實上教育經費編列管理辦法它本來就有一定的地方的部分也有嗎有個比例的規範嗎全國家地方它是有一個規範那當然我們目前也有一套的一個這一個中央編多少地方編多少的一套的計算方式但是我也必須要跟委員承認因為財務法以後這整個秩序"},{"start":592.378,"end":606.947,"text":"亂掉了所以我們必須要重新建立一個規範看怎麼樣有一個更好的支撐全國教育政策的推動跟地方是不是應該要來重新的而且必須要讓它更明確來去確保"},{"start":610.329,"end":639.291,"text":"請這一個我們這一個相關的委員會再研議這一個好那這部分我可以再跟我再跟那個部長在之後可能再進一步的討論好那最後給我一點時間就是有關於最近新制上路的這個教師升星條試駕啦那其實有一些家長就會擔心說啊這個到時候老師會不會一直請假啊然後孩子教學會不會有任何的影響啊不過其實我去跟一些校長在確認是說大家好像普遍來說就是覺得說這是一個新制啦新制我們就先上路那我想但是"},{"start":639.691,"end":665.745,"text":"校長也有一些擔心就是未來上路有一些狀況有沒有一些檢討滾動的修正的一個方法或是一個會議來去確認說到時候有什麼問題的話大家可以再來做一些調整這樣子我們是不是有相關的滾動性會議的修正感謝委員的一個提醒本來身心調適下就是用來支撐老師但是這個制度剛開始我也相信我們老師他本身是專業"},{"start":667.666,"end":682.303,"text":"對學生的一個照顧包括他的責任我相信他一定會有一個相對好的一個考量到個人的需求跟這個學童的一個照顧但是在未來如果有什麼樣的問題我當然我們也可以來做政策滾動式的一個"},{"start":682.363,"end":709.139,"text":"我想我们就这个学期结束之后好不好我们来做一个检讨看有没有要再修正的地方那最后我也想要争取再给我30秒而已我只是想要争取我们现在公立幼儿园的教保员是不是也可以适用这样子的制度因为现在老师有可是教保员没有那一员两制两个世界我自己会认为说对于这个现场的教保员来说心情可能会不是那么舒适是不是有可能把这个公立教保员也纳入呢"},{"start":712.21,"end":737.057,"text":"跟委員報告教保員的部分目前來講是適用勞基法我知道那這個部分我們再跟勞動部這邊因為當時在研議身心調適教的過程當中是有找勞動部來的那這個部分涉及到整個他們勞動部的一個政策這個我們再跟勞動部這邊講那我大概多久再來追你們相關的進度呢還是你們多久可以再給我們再給我們一個相關的說明"},{"start":739.456,"end":745.043,"text":"應該一個月內應該可以好 謝謝你喔 謝謝好 謝謝張雅琳委員謝謝行政部"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1103,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時36分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。我想與部長討論有關於實驗教育的題目，從107年開始，實驗教育的學生成長1.75%，但是特殊教育的學生卻成長了153%，你可以從這個圖表明顯看出這個比例是非常劇烈的攀升，代表著實驗教育這麼多年來其實承接了許多特殊需求的學生，為什麼呢？主要是因為師生比比較低，家長認為可以給予特殊需求的孩子比較好的照顧，而且他們也認為教學彈性多元，可能比較能夠符合特殊學童的學習需求。再者，他們也會覺得空間相對可能比較大，可以包容他的孩子。因此，這幾年其實有越來越多情緒障礙、自閉症、學習障礙的孩子或隱性特殊需求的孩子都去了實驗教育。我想問一下，部長對於實驗教育需要更多特教資源的這個態度是認可的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，確實誠如委員剛才所言，有一些家長因為實驗教育的多樣性及許多課程比較能夠考慮到個人的需求，所以當孩子需要一些特別輔助時，家長會希望……"],["張委員雅琳：部長，我想問你是否認為我們需要給他們更多的支持？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們會有一些額外的經費補助。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，我先讓你回顧一下歷史，其實這個題目在去年6月就已經問過了。雖然我們承接了這麼多的孩子，但是我們給的實驗教育特教資源非常非常不足，然而一整年過去了，我在114年的預算提案又再度講到這件事情，剛剛部長也提到我們可以給予支持，所以我希望這個支持是更務實的支持。今年我收到了預算回文，提到你們邀請了地方共同討論、邀請了相關團體共同討論，那麼今天我們是否可以具體討論時程？因為已經改了一年的時間，我們可不可以在年底前提出實驗教育中特殊學生的特教需求，並且編列經費給予支持？"],["鄭部長英耀：現在每個學生已經有補助1.2萬元。"],["張委員雅琳：現在每個學生已經有編列，所以是明年就會開始執行嗎？"],["彭署長富源：114學年，現在就在執行了。"],["張委員雅琳：現在就在執行了？"],["彭署長富源：我們會後再將資料提供給委員，現在有兩件事情在做，第一個是委員……"],["張委員雅琳：但之前講的是低收入戶及中低收入戶啊！"],["彭署長富源：特殊需求也有。"],["張委員雅琳：特殊需求的學生？"],["彭署長富源：對，那是在4月的時候，實際上在8月1日之後就執行了。第二點，地方政府我們還外加10萬元去處理這些特教行政，實驗教育的部分。所以從……"],["張委員雅琳：這個學年度已經開始了？"],["彭署長富源：對，這個學年度做了兩項新增工作，會後整理給委員，謝謝委員提醒。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝，也非常謝謝教育部對於實驗教育內特殊生的資源投注。","接下來我要請教有關於財劃法的影響，特別是對於偏鄉教育的部分。首先，今天早上非常多國民黨委員也都很關心到底財劃法對於地方的影響是什麼，我自己這段時間也遇到許多家長團體都問我午餐費為什麼中央不出等等的，還有教師的薪資補貼會不會有影響等等的，所以我也想就這一題來跟部長做個請教。以營養午餐來說，我知道臺北跟新北都說他們會去編列，但是臺中盧市長還是說他不會編列，他是說「只要財政充裕一定願意做」，所以我想問一下，我們是不是跟地方都已經溝通過了呢？這一點我想要再次確認一下，是不是已經都確認過了？"],["劉處長嘉偉：跟委員報告，財劃法中有關於一些跟地方之間財源調配的事情，包括行政院或行政院主計總處從8月中的時候就已經有召開過四次的協調會議，包括找地方各縣市……"],["張委員雅琳：所以跟地方都已經溝通過，也都已經清楚傳遞這個訊息了，對嗎？"],["劉處長嘉偉：對，地方政府應該都知道有哪一些補助款可能中央已經沒有辦法再繼續負擔，必須要協調地方政府能夠幫忙分攤。"],["張委員雅琳：好喔，因為外面有傳言，報導也有提到，教育部的預算跟今年度相比減少了908億元，教育部給我的是79億元，我想知道這個差別到底是在哪裡？還有減少的地方到底是在哪些部分？可不可以簡單做個說明。"],["劉處長嘉偉：跟委員說明一下，這裡面提到減少900億元，大概就是因為沒有算到行政院還有分配給教育部813億元的一般性補助款。"],["張委員雅琳：喔，他們沒有算到那個部分就對了？"],["劉處長嘉偉：對，如果把這個加進去的話……"],["張委員雅琳：了解。所以整體來說是79億元沒錯嘛，對不對？"],["劉處長嘉偉：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：這79億元是哪些項目呢？簡單的說就好。"],["劉處長嘉偉：79億元裡面最大的項目大概也是針對地方政府的補助，地方政府的補助有減少了一百六十幾億元，這是裡面最大的一個項目。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解，但是聽起來就是地方拿了滿多錢走的嘛，我覺得現在應該要問的是地方拿了這些錢到底去做了什麼嘛，對不對？拿到了這些錢之後，臺北跟新北都可以編，為什麼臺中不能編？據我所知，臺中現在已經在審相關的預算，各縣市政府已經在審預算了，可是臺中好像並沒有把這些新增部分加進去，我覺得最要去問的是到底臺中市要拿這些錢去做什麼？為什麼要苦孩子？","再來還有一個問題我也想跟部長請教，因為這樣聽起來，如果地方政府沒有把經費放在教育經費的話，受害的就是孩子，我們有任何的手段可以阻止嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，確實，當時因應財劃法，我們也跟地方縣市政府教育局處做了這樣一個討論，就是教育部原來的一般補助部分，就是行政院已經撥下去的，這裡面原來是包含我們的政策推動，我們會告訴他哪些員額、哪些經費是……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道，但是他不做呢？我們還有什麼手段可以來守護我們的孩子嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個我們可以提醒地方縣市教育局處首長，跟他們說這些錢本來行政院就用一般補助下去了，這時候你在年度預算……"],["張委員雅琳：聽起來好像就是勸……"],["鄭部長英耀：要怎麼樣把這個經費能夠落實的編在地方教育事務上，這個我們也有一致的跟他們……"],["張委員雅琳：了解，但是我聽起來好像是柔性的勸說，我提供一個想法來跟部長做一個討論，就是關於我特別關心的偏鄉學生的教育權。因為115年我們有編列相關的教育經費，像是偏鄉學校宿舍修繕，甚至偏鄉教育專業教師人力的補足，這個在偏鄉條例實施之後都有專案的經費，但是接下來從明年開始，到底我們中央補助的經費會不會因此而減少呢？我們114年補助18億，那明年度的偏鄉學校又該怎麼辦呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，在偏鄉的部分，基本上，我們教育部還是會有比較大的協助，譬如說，我最近到各偏鄉地區去走，我們也發現了要讓老師留下來，老師的宿舍有一些年久失修……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯、沒錯。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們怎麼樣優先補助來做改善，最近我不管到花蓮、屏東等，都發現這樣相同的問題，包含臺東，我們會優先協助地方中小學來做一些教師宿舍的改善，這個我想我們教育部會……"],["張委員雅琳：了解，所以聽起來是說，我們在偏鄉的補助上面還是會維持一定的比例，對嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：對，會維持一定的這個……會優先來做協助。"],["張委員雅琳：好，部長，我想要再請教的是我們有沒有機會來推動一個修法，就是規定地方教育經費最低比例，以避免教育被犧牲，讓這件事情來入法才能夠確保我們的教育經費分到地方之後不會受到影響，這個部分部長是不是可以去做個研議並思考一下？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，有關全國的教育總預算，事實上在教育經費編列與管理法中本來就有一定的規範……"],["張委員雅琳：地方的部分也有嗎？有比例的規範嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：全國加地方是有一個規範，當然，我們目前也有一套中央編多少、地方編多少的計算方式，但是我也必須要跟委員承認，在財劃法修正以後，這整個秩序亂掉了……"],["張委員雅琳：是，沒錯！"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我們必須要重新建立一個規範，看怎麼樣能有一個更好的支撐來做全國教育政策的推動跟地方……"],["張委員雅琳：對，就是因為財劃法的關係嘛，所以我們才會覺得是不是應該要重新訂定，而且必須要讓它更明確，以此來做確保。"],["鄭部長英耀：是，我們自己也請相關的委員會在研議這個部分。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個部分我之後再跟部長做進一步的討論。","最後給我一點時間，就是有關於最近新制上路的教師身心調適假，其實有一些家長就會擔心到時候老師會不會一直請假，對孩子的教學會不會有任何的影響，不過我去跟一些校長確認過，大家好像普遍覺得這是一個新制，新制就先上路，但是校長們也有一些擔心，就是未來新制上路後，如果有一些狀況的時候，有沒有檢討滾動修正的方法或是會議，去確認到時候有什麼問題時大家可以再來做一些調整，我們是不是有相關滾動性會議的修正？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的一個提醒，本來身心調適假就是用來支撐老師的，但是制度剛開始嘛，我也相信我們老師本身是專業的，對於學生的照顧，包括他的責任，我相信他一定會有一個相對好的，會考量到個人需求跟對學童的照顧。但是在未來如果有什麼樣的問題，當然我們也可以來做政策滾動式的修正。"],["張委員雅琳：我想就這個學期結束之後，好不好？我們來做一個檢討，看有沒有要再修正的地方。","最後請再給我30秒，我只是想要爭取現在公立幼兒園的教保員是不是也可以適用這樣的制度，因為現在老師有，可是教保員沒有，一園兩制、兩個世界，我自己會認為對於現場的教保員來說，心情可能不是那麼舒適啦，是不是有可能把公立教保員也納入呢？"],["林處長建璋：跟委員報告，教保員的部分，目前來講是適用勞基法……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道。"],["林處長建璋：這個部分，我們再跟勞動部做溝通，因為當時在研議身心調適假的過程當中是有找勞動部來的，但這個部分涉及到他們勞動部的政策，這個我們再跟勞動部去做溝通。"],["張委員雅琳：我大概多久再追你們相關的進度呢？還是你們多久可以再給我們一個相關的說明？"],["林處長建璋：一個月內應該可以。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝你，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，謝謝行政官員，請回座。","現在請林月琴委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6dddf02a89d9bd32dbc2e7a8918bc9e770febda90f1cdde82c5430e83854d74935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:22:03 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13:33:45","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T13:22:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T13:33:45+08:00","duration":702,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.59534375,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.122218750000002,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.074718750000002,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.14221875,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.27721875,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.664718750000006,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.03096875,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.12971875000001,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.78346875,"end":76.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.05659375,"end":79.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.10721875,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.18596875,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.64971875,"end":90.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.68346875,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.97034375000001,"end":90.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.98721875000001,"end":91.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.32034375,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.84721875000001,"end":100.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.02346875,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.96846875,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.79846875000001,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.95034375,"end":128.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.16971875,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.12471875,"end":140.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.13971875000001,"end":144.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.43034375000002,"end":148.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.48034375,"end":151.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.54721875,"end":153.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.15034375000002,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.60846875000001,"end":177.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.82596875000002,"end":193.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.85721875000002,"end":195.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.65409375000002,"end":198.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.75534375,"end":198.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.39659375000002,"end":199.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.81409375,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.67471875,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.88971875000001,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.07784375,"end":228.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.59159375000002,"end":219.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.50159375,"end":234.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.45846875,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.74034375000002,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.75721875000002,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.77409375000002,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.87534375,"end":257.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.67846875000004,"end":263.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.52971875000003,"end":288.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.74534375,"end":290.07846875},{"speaker"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主席謝謝 麻煩請洪森漢部長好 請洪部長洪委員好部長好 部長我想今天感謝召委這邊排這個專報告那其實最主要還是一樣這個空服員的一個事件"},{"start":25.219,"end":47.82,"text":"那这个汉事大家都不希望发生但是既然发生了我们就一定要好好来追究一下我先请教一下有没有注意到违反劳动事业单位的查询系统里面长龙航空也就是这一次的这个事件里面的空服员的一个业主他过去三年里面都被我们这边有做连续的一些开罚"},{"start":48.68,"end":76.574,"text":"他的開罰金額今年累計四次罰還已經到265萬是不是詳細的數但確實罰的比數不算少是我們國家裡面的幾個航空裡面不管是中華航空新宇航空虎航或者是相關長榮航空等等是不是長榮航空的比例最高就今年來說長榮應該是比較多的好那前三年呢這三年"},{"start":79.436,"end":100.541,"text":"這幾年加起來長榮都是比較高也是嘛所以說換言之從過去到現在我們現在討論這一家公司他算不算是累犯算不算是一個慣犯累犯應該算是比例來講嘛也就只有這幾家航空公司嘛是不是但是我的意思說其他航空公司也不一定就非常好"},{"start":102.376,"end":127.392,"text":"所以這根本是問題部長非常好你用這樣子一個那麼幽默的態度但是一條人命發生了不好笑我沒有我沒有我現在要講的其實是我現在要講的其實是如果說你是身為勞工朋友的主管機關你要究責的是這個事業單位的話那如果說過去三年都已經有看到這家公司持續有被相關"},{"start":129.158,"end":151.346,"text":"我們違反勞動法令的查詢系統裡面其中延長工時超過法定規定8次的遭罰高達295萬那是不是應該就要被列為一個警訊當然列為一個黑名單或說列為一個重點稽查的事業當然是那我們做了什麼"},{"start":153.048,"end":177.147,"text":"來再來如果說這一個公司他沒有辦法提供友善的職場甚至危害生命的時候是不是意味公司的管理方式應該要檢討當然好有沒有看到因為現在傳出說長榮航空的績效考核評比礦值一天扣4分試病假一天扣1分遲到早退扣0.5分甚至還有"},{"start":177.947,"end":200.769,"text":"旺旺日包括說跨年農曆春節等缺勤者一天扣3分我先說如果說是這個礦值等等的那可能這個扣分相對來講大家覺得有道理但是我請市價或請併價也要被扣分你覺得這職場的潛規則不長知情嗎有沒有掌握我們有看到這樣的訊息是那"},{"start":201.943,"end":210.761,"text":"病假也好 試假也好我員工請了病假 請了試假然後還要被額外的挑出來扣分還要被額外挑出來救責部長認為合理嗎"},{"start":214.104,"end":238.246,"text":"我們當然認為 如果勞工已經明確就是生病那他一定是生病才請病假嘛 讓我說完嘛如果勞工確定是生病 但是還是被這個要求或者是各種方式要硬撐著不休息 我覺得這當然這個不應該被 我認為不應該被制度性的鼓勵這種狀況"},{"start":239.967,"end":263.257,"text":"部長 部長 部長 釐清一下我現在講的是說我剛剛也提到了就是這個我們是因為我不在長榮公司服務過所以我也不知道說有這樣的潛規則但是我們一直都有聽說有些特殊行業有特殊的潛規則那現在傳出來長榮這家公司它的績效考核評比就把請病假 請試假都列入績效考核評比來扣分"},{"start":264.585,"end":291.199,"text":"那您剛有提到是說我還要員工還要自己證明真的有病我才能請病假這我覺得已經偏離了我們當初設計說有病假的這個請假的一個標準那再者是我現在要請教的是說公司能不能主張說我員工請病假我額外的扣分或是說我額外把你列為是考機評比的評比範圍我們當然不希望這樣不希望還是不可以"},{"start":292.509,"end":317.162,"text":"你是勞動部主管機關耶現在這在法規上面法規上面規範可不可以因為這邊涉及的是勞工我們現在病假其實在勞動基準法裡面的天數其實可以長達到兩年或者是依照他的相關的請假的部分那勞工請假規則也明確規定事業單位他要自訂請假的程序那至於"},{"start":318.382,"end":341.969,"text":"這個請假相關造成雇主在管理上面有一些的措施到底是不是不利對待那這個部分其實我們勞動部這邊後續會針對請假的類型然後相關攜帶會管理的手段他是不是合理合情合法這部分我們會邀請各方再來討論所以過去到現在都沒有所謂的不利對待的樣態跟明確規定嗎"},{"start":343.537,"end":361.765,"text":"然後還有就是說現在我們點出來我們現在點出來如果說他連請一天病假一年365天我連請一天病假我都要被扣一分你覺得這合理嗎我自己是覺得這當然不合理啊是啊完全不合理吧"},{"start":363.171,"end":374.341,"text":"那 所以部長 我很訝異耶我很訝異 我已經排到第二四位質詢了結果我質詢這些問題你到現在還沒有辦法有一個明確的回覆耶"},{"start":375.456,"end":399.813,"text":"那代表是什麼代表是在這件事情上面第一我准我受訪的時候我就講了就是說會不會有很多我當然都希望我們的僱主勞工都站在天平的兩邊大家都是互相尊重但是如果說有一個行業裡面有潛規則讓人害怕請病假害怕叫救護車害怕求助這不是工作這是集體霸凌"},{"start":401.014,"end":410.763,"text":"那如果說是集體霸凌的話我們身為勞工的主管機關勞動部就應該要站出來當勞工的靠山當然我現在在講的是說如果說今天"},{"start":412.376,"end":431.205,"text":"長榮航空他確實有所謂我們去做調查了解他有沒有說真的讓員工請一天病假都要扣分影響到他年底的一個考積有沒有跟委員說明大概在整體的調查上面我們還在做更多的訪談那我們大概是這應該不難吧對我們大概是在應該是這兩個禮拜內我們會去跟相關的機組員在做訪談"},{"start":438.034,"end":464.335,"text":"兩個禮拜內會不會太久其實說實在話因為其實有些機組員不一定都在台灣不是 我今天部長你好像還沒有釐清到問題的核心我覺得不只是這個機組員他應該是一個整體的公司的智慧所以我現在從一個個案這一個個案要去做認定我尊重相關的單位因為現在我知道說地方政府也好我們的這個中央部會也都已經有在調查"},{"start":464.855,"end":486.408,"text":"但我現在再拉到更高一個層次就是說幾個公司裡面有沒有這個行業的潛規則我怕請市價怕請病價因為請市價請病價會被扣分市價病價本來就不應該有這樣的一個規定我們就是認為勞工生病卻硬撐的這件事情不該被制度性的鼓勵"},{"start":487.873,"end":513.323,"text":"是嘛 所以我現在才是說你要釐清這件事情剛剛是市長講的嘛 剛剛是市長回覆市長你回覆市長是說有怕很極端的樣態譬如說我病假可以請兩年會不會有人刻意的來擺爛然後請兩年所以說造成說公司管理不利但是我現在把這一些極端的案例給撇開而市長是說如果說一個行業連請365天連請一天病假都要被扣分的話"},{"start":513.923,"end":533.205,"text":"基本上他不只是不利待遇啊他根本就是集體霸凌所以現在才要釐清說到底有沒有行業有這樣子的一個潛規則有沒有這樣子的一個暗黑條款而我們要做的就應該是要用法令明文規定保障嚇阻這種暗黑條款嚇阻這種潛規則嘛不是嗎"},{"start":536.121,"end":556.791,"text":"什麼時候可以讓國人更清楚明白了解這也才是這一個行業裡面為什麼會讓大家詬病的一個地方跟我說明我們其實也做了一些檢討比方說就拿全勤獎金的部分來說的話我們就是認為這個勞工請病假不應該請一兩天病假就被沒收整個"},{"start":558.342,"end":584.407,"text":"整個月的這個全勤獎金全勤獎金變成是一種來去嚇阻勞工請病假的一些手段所以就全勤獎這部分我們其實會用一些制度性的方法希望來做更多的保障這部分就是我們的我比較直接講一下關於其他的航空公司包括中華航空長榮航空我們國內的航空公司新宇航空針對他們的績效平和標準"},{"start":586.438,"end":602.632,"text":"應該要做檢討把不合理的績效平和標準要求公司拿掉我想這是如果說他明明這些績效平和標準都已經是違法的不容許他持續用這種違法手段來去要求他的老公吧"},{"start":603.092,"end":627.627,"text":"跟文說明第一個在勞動法規的部分我們來處理但是你如果涉及到他一些管理的目標跟績效的部分我想這部分我們會來跟民航局這邊來討論也希望交通部這邊民航局這邊也我們一起合作那有一些跨部會的手段來去改變現在我們看到航空業這一種請假的制度包括他們的文化這部分我們會跟民航局這邊一起來做"},{"start":630.433,"end":634.953,"text":"什麼時候可以讓本席以及讓國人可以知道更進一步的消息"},{"start":636.516,"end":662.793,"text":"就這個個案的調查我們剛才是承諾是兩個禮拜希望有更進一步的這個訪談跟調查的結果那就整體的剛才講說制度面的話我覺得我們會來一步一步的來進行那確實他可能會需要一些過程然後我們也在做一些檢視因為請病假的樣態其實蠻多的被認知為不利對待的樣態其實也蠻多的那你要什麼時候明定出來"},{"start":663.473,"end":686.146,"text":"我想召委已经站起来了所以说我尊重召委但我要求的是劳动部今天应该要让我们国人知道是说你什么时候可以明定所谓的不利样态以及针对这个个别公司有这种恶意的绩效平和标准是违法的情况什么时候可以处理跟检讨两个月内两个月内对好本期会持续对这个议题"},{"start":687.133,"end":701.242,"text":"部長兩個月內找民航局相關單位開會找三大公司幾家這個航空公司業者一起共同開會我們不是兩個月我這禮拜就要找民航局開會好但是兩個月內把這相關的部分提出來好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時22分）主席謝謝，麻煩請洪申翰部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。感謝召委今天排這個專案報告，其實最主要還是一樣針對空服員的事件，這個憾事大家都不希望發生，但既然發生了，我們就一定要好好來追究一下。我先請教一下，有沒有注意到在違反勞動法令事業單位的查詢系統裡面，長榮航空──也就是這一次空服員事件裡面的業主，它過去三年都被連續開罰，它的開罰金額今年累計四次罰鍰已經到265萬，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：詳細的數字……確實罰的筆數不算少。"],["洪委員孟楷：在我們國家的幾家航空公司裡面，不管是中華航空、星宇航空、虎航或者是長榮航空等等，是不是長榮航空的比例最高？"],["洪部長申翰：就今年來說，長榮應該是比較多的。"],["洪委員孟楷：前三年呢？"],["洪部長申翰：這幾年加起來，長榮都是比較高的。"],["洪委員孟楷：也是嘛！換言之，從過去到現在，我們現在所討論的這一家公司算不算是累犯？算不算是一個慣犯、累犯？"],["洪部長申翰：應該算是……"],["洪委員孟楷：就比例來講，也就只有這幾家航空公司嘛，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：我的意思是說其他航空公司也不一定就非常好。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這是根本性的問題，部長非常好，你用那麼幽默的態度，但是一條人命發生了，不好笑啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有、我沒有，我不覺得好笑，我是說它表現不好。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在要講的是，你身為勞工朋友的主管機關，你要究責的是這個事業單位，如果過去三年都已經看到這家公司在違反勞動法令查詢系統裡面有持續被開罰，其中延長工時超過法律規定，八次遭罰高達295萬，那是不是應該就要被列為一個警訊？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：列為一個黑名單，或是說列為重點稽查的事業？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們做了什麼？再來，如果這家公司沒有辦法提供友善的職場，甚至危害生命的時候，是不是意味著公司的管理方式應該要檢討？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長有沒有看到現在傳出長榮航空的績效考核評比，曠職一天扣4分，事病假一天扣1分，遲到早退扣0.5分，甚至還有「旺旺日」，包括跨年、農曆春節等缺勤者一天扣3分。如果是曠職等等的，那這個扣分相對來講大家可能還覺得有道理，但是請事假或請病假也要被扣分，這個職場的潛規則部長知情嗎？有沒有掌握？"],["洪部長申翰：我們有看到這樣的訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：病假也好、事假也好，員工請了病假、請了事假，然後還要被額外的挑出來扣分、還要被額外挑出來究責，部長認為合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然認為如果勞工已經明確生病了，那……"],["洪委員孟楷：他一定是生病才請病假嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：委員讓我說完嘛！如果勞工確定是生病，但還是被要求或者是以各種方式要硬撐著不休息，我認為不應該被制度性的鼓勵這種狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們來釐清一下，我剛剛也提到了……因為我沒有在長榮公司服務過，所以我也不知道有這樣的潛規則，但是我們一直聽說有些特殊行業有特殊的潛規則，現在傳出來長榮這家公司的績效考核評比，就把請病假、請事假都列入績效考核評比來扣分，您剛剛有提到員工還要自己證明真的有病才能請病假，我覺得這已經偏離了我們當初所設計的請假標準。再者，我現在要請教的是，公司能不能主張員工請病假就要額外扣分，或是額外把它列為考績評比的評比範圍？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然不希望這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：不希望還是不可以？勞動部是主管機關耶！"],["洪部長申翰：現在這在法規上面……"],["洪委員孟楷：法規上面的規範可不可以？"],["黃司長琦雅：跟委員報告，因為這邊涉及的是勞工，現在病假在勞動基準法裡面的天數其實可以長達兩年，或者是依照他相關請假的部分，勞工請假規則明確規定事業單位要制定請假的程序。至於雇主在相關請假方面的一些管理措施上面到底是不是不利對待，勞動部後續會針對請假的類型，以及相關事業單位管理的手段是不是合理、合情、合法，這部分我們會邀集各方再來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以過去到現在都沒有所謂不利對待的樣態及明確規定嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為不利……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有就是現在我們點出來……"],["洪部長申翰：因為被認知為不利對待的樣態很多。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在點出來一年365天，如果連請一天病假都要被扣1分，你覺得這合理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我自己覺得這當然不合理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，完全不合理吧！部長，我很訝異我已經排到第24位質詢了，結果我質詢這些問題，你到現在還沒有辦法有一個明確的回復。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，不是這樣子……"],["洪委員孟楷：那代表什麼？代表的是在這件事情上面……第一，昨天受訪的時候我就講了，我當然希望我們的雇主、勞工都站在天平的兩邊，大家都是互相尊重，但是如果有一個行業裡面有潛規則，讓人害怕請病假、害怕叫救護車、害怕求助，這不是工作，這是集體霸凌！如果說是集體霸凌的話，身為勞工的主管機關──勞動部，就應該要站出來當勞工的靠山。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在講的是如果今天長榮航空確實有所謂……你們去調查了解，它有沒有真的連員工請一天病假都要扣分、影響到他年底的考績，有沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，在整體的調查上面，我們還在做更多的訪談，現在初步……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但這應該不難吧！"],["洪部長申翰：對，應該是這兩個禮拜內，我們會去跟相關的機組員再做訪談。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個禮拜會不會太久？"],["洪部長申翰：因為有些機組員不一定都在臺灣。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你好像還沒有釐清到問題的核心，我覺得不只是機組員，它應該是整體公司的制度。"],["洪部長申翰：是，但我是說我們在這裡面……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在從一個個案來說，這個個案要去做認定，我尊重相關的單位，因為我知道現在不管是地方政府也好，包括中央部會也都已經有在調查，但我現在再拉到更高一個層次，就是幾個公司裡面有沒有這個行業的潛規則，員工怕請事假、怕請病假，因為請事假、請病假會被扣分，其實事假、病假本來就不應該有這樣的規定。"],["洪部長申翰：我們就是認為勞工生病卻硬撐著的這件事情，不該被制度性的鼓勵。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，所以我現在才說你們要釐清這件事情……"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們的立場，我們從這個出發點希望來設計有更多保障的做法。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛是司長講的嘛，司長你回復時是說怕有很極端的樣態，譬如說病假可以請兩年，會不會有人刻意擺爛，然後請兩年，所以造成公司管理不利。但是我現在把這一些極端的案例撇開，而是說如果一個行業365天連請一天病假都要被扣分的話，基本上它不只是不利待遇，它根本就是集體霸凌，所以現在才要釐清到底有沒有行業有這樣子的潛規則，有沒有這樣子的暗黑條款，而我們要做的就應該是要用法令明文規定保障，嚇阻這種暗黑條款、嚇阻這種潛規則，不是嗎？什麼時候可以讓國人更清楚明白、了解，這也是這個行業為什麼會讓大家詬病的一個地方。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們其實也做了一些檢討，比方以全勤獎金的部分來說的話，我們就是認為勞工請病假不應該請一兩天病假就被沒收整個月的全勤獎金，全勤獎金變成是一種嚇阻勞工請病假的手段，所以就全勤獎金這部分，我們其實會用一些制度性的方法，希望來做更多的保障，這部分就是我們的檢討，但是關於其他的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我比較直接講一下，幾大航空公司包括中華航空、長榮航空，還有國內的航空公司星宇航空，針對他們的績效評核標準應該要做檢討，要求公司把不合理的績效評核標準拿掉，如果這些績效評核標準明明都已經是違法的，應該不容許他持續用這種違法手段去要求他的勞工吧！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，勞動法規的部分我們來處理，但是如果涉及到一些管理的目標跟績效的部分，我想這部分我們會跟民航局討論，也希望交通部、民航局能一起合作，用一些跨部會的手段去改變現在我們所看到航空業的這種請假制度，包括他們的文化，這部分我們會跟民航局一起來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以讓本席以及國人知道更進一步的消息？"],["洪部長申翰：就這個個案的調查，我們剛剛是承諾兩個禮拜，希望有更進一步的訪談跟調查結果。就剛才所講到的整體制度面的話，我們會一步一步來進行，確實這可能需要一些過程，然後我們也在做一些檢視，因為請病假的樣態其實蠻多的，被認知為不利對待的樣態其實也蠻多的……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你要什麼時候明定出來？召委已經站起來，所以我尊重召委，但我要求的是勞動部今天應該要讓國人知道你什麼時候可以明定所謂的不利樣態，以及針對個別公司有這種惡意的績效評核標準是違法的情況，什麼時候可以處理跟檢討？兩個月內？"],["洪部長申翰：給我們兩個月。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩個月內？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，本席會持續追這個議題。部長，兩個月內找民航局等相關單位開會，找三大公司及幾家航空公司業者一起共同開會。"],["洪部長申翰：不是兩個月，我這禮拜就要找民航局開會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，但是兩個月內把相關的部分提出來，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員發言，謝謝部長答詢。","下一位請范雲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 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人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6fd4690ad913676b66c95259d4de0cc170febda90f1cdde8210110eaefe7530705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:30:43 - 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邀請部長好 請部長五言五案"},{"start":12.837,"end":32.397,"text":"我們來討論教師荒的這個議題我們看到說招不到也留不住我們看到教師荒的這個議題據資料111年到112年這兩個年度開出的國小正式教職的職缺都突破4000人"},{"start":34.219,"end":60.195,"text":"媒體報導 我們看到今年的8月25號也就是開學前的一週全台公立國中小學總共3303所學校但是缺少了多少1429名的代理教師所以很多的縣市甚至每年還要來搶老師更何況偏鄉的部分"},{"start":60.695,"end":76.312,"text":"甚至有偏鄉一開學他沒有辦個正職老師所以他就用代理老師來撐場那還有因為結構性的一個留任的問題所以教師荒可以說是遭不到"},{"start":77.193,"end":94.421,"text":"那也留不住所以依據你教育部的一個統計我們全台大概有7.4萬名已經取得到教師license的證照但是他選擇不在學校來教資而投入了其他的產業"},{"start":95.942,"end":112.792,"text":"所以我們也看到每年報考教師的人數他也不斷在下降所以部長在這樣子人力不足的惡性循環之下我們不僅要每個人去分攤這些現有的老師他要去分攤客戶的沉重"},{"start":115.774,"end":134.597,"text":"但是校園裡頭還有行政的工作要做再累積加上去所以尤其有一些還要再加班那普遍的過勞這個行業等於它的是招不到也留不住的會越來越惡性循環那在這樣的情況之下本席要請教"},{"start":135.868,"end":142.96,"text":"招不到留不住那主要原因是什麼那我們自己政府有什麼樣的一個規劃來解決之呢請說明"},{"start":147.067,"end":168.475,"text":"謝謝委員關心我們這個國民教育的一個教育品質包含老師怎麼樣留住老師怎麼樣能夠讓老師能夠更專心的能夠留在學校來指導我們這個新世代的這些學生那我想主要大概有一個兩個問題過去我們中小因為隨著這個草址化的關係所以"},{"start":169.295,"end":195.121,"text":"大概過去會曾經會各校會控留8%以上甚至有一段時間控留10% 20%也就是說他不怕老師這一個學校這一個因為沒有學生所以這個原來的現任老師他要保護他然後避免這一個學校退場以後沒有工作這個當然可以理解但是以我們現在來講我想我們"},{"start":196.041,"end":219.129,"text":"整個退休的一個制度跟代理教師過去跟代理教師正式教師他的薪水事實上是有落差的現在幾乎都是其一的所以我們現在開始會及早佈局下個禮拜我們就會跟22個縣市教育局處來開始來討論不要再保留用代理教師不是啦你這個回答也就正式教師是"},{"start":222.211,"end":238.646,"text":"也就是你已经也体悟到认知到这个问题的严重性所以你们选择的刚刚你说的方式下个礼拜开始跟22个县市去做讨论但是本席的提问也就是说你目前有7万4"},{"start":239.887,"end":256.154,"text":"已經領有教師資格的這些人但他沒有在我們的這個教學體制裡頭這些都是人才你的條件你的誘因特別在偏鄉方面要怎麼樣去解決"},{"start":257.194,"end":277.406,"text":"偏鄉原住民我們開始開工會的專班過去工會是各個大學只有一個兩個他不會專心為這些工會醫師就從學校的根源開始工會的專班所以我也請你本集提出招不到留不住那麼老師這麼辛苦過勞"},{"start":279.187,"end":302.038,"text":"以及業務的增加你要怎麼樣去解決這個問題他的住宿他今天到學校去在偏鄉他還要居住另外付出一個謝謝部長你所提出的甚至住宿等所以本題希望就針對於偏鄉教宿的留任提出的事情必須好好去討論 好嗎把研究的方式給本題"},{"start":303.078,"end":322.503,"text":"把研究好的方式給本席尤其特別針對於偏鄉的人才的這個留任專案要怎麼樣去做整體性的一個調整好 我們先請 好嗎謝謝謝謝韓瓊英委員 謝謝部長這個是大問題我覺得應該在書面的報告再做一個回覆好 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謝主席 也請教育部正部長國教署彭署長好 請部長跟署長高教師廖師長國際師李師長"},{"start":28.64,"end":51.074,"text":"刚才户魁委员提到各县市因为财势收支方法的关系对于校园环境改善跟教学设备充实过去我想很多国教署同仁都跟我宪刊过我选区五十几个国中小我都一清二楚每一项建设跑到校舍改建厕所我都一清二楚"},{"start":51.994,"end":75.807,"text":"現在第一個問題想請教部長就是說過去的比例按照各縣市的財政狀況會有不同比例但是大概就是中央出七成到八成 對不對地方政府出兩成左右那現在最近去現勘 哇財政措施修法的關係變成說地方政府要出到六成中央政府教育部 國教署只補助四成"},{"start":77.833,"end":90.08,"text":"這種有一些對這個財政比較吃緊的這個地方政府他要出六成他拿不出來拿不出來你光有你交易部的四成也沒有辦法推動這個部長針對這個問題該要該怎麼解決呢"},{"start":94.803,"end":110.86,"text":"谢谢委员关心确实我们怎么样确保这个地方的教育品质许多跑到厕所校舍上的一些改善比如比例要怎么样恢复过去的水准跟委员报告我们基本上还是会朝这一个财力的各县市的财务状况"},{"start":111.32,"end":125.471,"text":"来做一些这个补助的一个原则大概是这样的一下从八成降到四成因为我们确实中央有部分的一些经费就直接到是不是柴化火灾修法再回来就回到原来的这个救治是不是会比较好"},{"start":127.704,"end":151.09,"text":"當然因為從中央整體這個財務的一些調配怎麼樣去關照不同縣市的一些發展財政那有一個均衡台灣的一個我提出這個問題就是說你如果補足四成地方政府沒有辦法拿出另外的六成很多的校園改善就沒有辦法去做是的 我想這當然這也是一個跟署長能夠了解這個問題"},{"start":152.91,"end":166.345,"text":"那另外您提到這個老舊廁所那114年到116年就是2025到2027的三年計劃那三年計劃每年變成多少針對老舊廁所的整修一年變多少錢總共有68億總共68億分三年來執行是"},{"start":169.915,"end":194.393,"text":"哇 那這樣每個縣市分配大概也有非常有限那國中小老舊校室整建現在都回到回到一般這個地方政府嘛 對不對是地方政府他在分配啊有時候不像中央那麼有效率所以我很擔心說未來能夠有急迫性的或者有危險性的這部分是不是有可以由教育部接手來專案來補助"},{"start":196.308,"end":225.447,"text":"你把它做一個分級啦因為柏弟我意思說你那麼多老舊廁所你這個優先性急迫性的部分啦是不是可以由教育部來優先協助確實我們過去在許多類似這樣的一個都是用跟行政院申請專案特同的一個方式來支持那當然因為才會有我想我們也會持續來跟行政院來請求這一個看能不能有一個專案就像老舊廁所一樣"},{"start":226.808,"end":237.977,"text":"為什麼我請高教師呢就是說我們半導體這個高教人才的培育這非常重要半導體需要人才那過去三年我不曉得過去三年增加多少的招生員額"},{"start":239.457,"end":260.305,"text":"这个针对半导体人才跟委员报告针对这些半导体或者是自通讯的一个产业我们目前可给学校的方式是以外加名额的方式那近三年的总额是多少这个会后是不是我可以提供数据给委员就是每个学年度应该要多啦因为人才这个都不够"},{"start":261.678,"end":289.145,"text":"所以一定要給他多一點的這個彈性多一點充裕的人才多一點的補助讓他們可以開更多的課程來培育半導體的人才跟委員報告除了一般學校開設的這些半導體的一個課程之外我們也有六個學校有半導體的學院那它的相關名額也是你要設定一個總目標比如說三年之內你要培育五千或者一萬這半導體的人才先把這個總目標設定之後再交由分區的大學去公立大學去執行"},{"start":290.205,"end":319.251,"text":"是應該由上而下而不是由下而上我覺得這應該從政策層面而不是在執行層面去處理這部分在會後再給我一些資料再麻煩謝謝市長為什麼我會請這個國際師我們外交部我們教育部有外派這個教育組的這些同仁總共有幾個國家的我們的諸外管處有編制外交部的外派人員有幾個國家我們總共有"},{"start":320.615,"end":333.986,"text":"应该有29个国家不能说应该有是真的有还是怎么样你这个市长应该要很清楚这个数字我会问你一定要很清楚有几个国家2929个国家我们派驻多少同仁去"},{"start":335.523,"end":360.598,"text":"目前是有四十一二十九個國家我等一下再請她麻煩您提供這個駐外的管處跟這個人員的配置我們當然會去很多國家進行國會外交國會外交外管的同仁也會跟我們反映這個我們重視跟東北亞國家的關係東北亞就兩個國家日本跟南韓日本沒有問題人員充裕韓國相對不夠所以從地緣政治地緣經濟地緣文化"},{"start":365.609,"end":369.959,"text":"我覺得不管是文化部或者交易部針對這個韓國駐韓我們代表處的交易組人員"},{"start":376.147,"end":402.321,"text":"能夠增聘的你目前沒有嗎目前有韓國我們目前有一位組長一位秘書目前是兩位對那我的理解是說好像不夠你們思考看看全盤去做一個有效率的分配針對他的這個需求必要性跟急迫性去來派這個派駐我們的外交部的這個這個我們同仁到各駐外管處去協助管務的推動"},{"start":405.483,"end":432.235,"text":"請再請部長時間謝謝委員提醒確實我們事實上隨著國家的一個這個國際跟外交上的一些發展還有產業的一個佈局我們事實上也跟外交部提到能不能在這一個外交人力上的一個配置能夠擴充這事實上也是我們跟外交部在努力合作的一個議題因為許多的人力人力上他還有人事總署就是說我們整個整個那個"},{"start":433.495,"end":451.544,"text":"最後一個任務導向不是說一般性的任務你要給他一個特定的任務跟委員報告我們事實上是有針對這個也在思考希望能夠擴充外交部長我們就請做書面回覆了時間講究要把握好那現在請下一位楊瓊英委員進行質詢時間"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1021,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（13時23分）謝謝主席，請教育部鄭部長、國教署彭署長。"],["主席：請部長及署長。"],["邱委員志偉：還有高教司廖司長、國際司李司長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：剛才富癸委員提到各縣市因為財政收支劃分法受到的影響，對於校園環境改善及教育設備的充實，過去許多國教署的同仁都與我現勘過，我對選區的五十幾所國中小都一清二楚，每一項建設像是跑道、校舍改建及廁所等等，我都是一清二楚。第一個問題要請教部長，過去按照各縣市的財政狀況會有不同的比例，但大概都是中央出七成到八成，對不對？地方政府出二成左右。最近我去現勘，哇！因為財政收支劃分法修法的關係，變成地方政府要出到六成、中央政府教育部國教署只補助四成，但是一些財政比較吃緊的地方政府拿不出六成，光有教育部補助的四成也沒有辦法推動，部長，這個問題該怎麼解決呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，確實該如何確保地方的教育品質，像是許多的跑道、廁所、校舍都要做一些改善。"],["邱委員志偉：在比例上要如何恢復過去的水準？"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，基本上，我們還是會朝各縣市的財務狀況作為補助的原則，大概就是這樣。"],["邱委員志偉：一下從八成降到四成？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們中央確實有部分的經費就直接到地方去了。"],["邱委員志偉：財劃法再修法回到原來的舊制是不是會比較好？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然從中央整體進行財務的調配，如何關照不同縣市的發展及財政，有一個均衡臺灣的……"],["邱委員志偉：我之所以提出這個問題，因為你們補助四成，如果地方政府無法拿出另外的六成，很多的校園改善就沒有辦法進行，希望部長及署長能夠瞭解這個問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：是的，當然這也是一個問題。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你提到老舊廁所的部分，114年到116年，也就是2025年到2027年的3年計畫，針對老舊廁所的整修一年編列多少錢？"],["鄭部長英耀：總共有68億元。"],["邱委員志偉：總共有68億元，分成3年來執行？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["邱委員志偉：哇！這樣每個縣市能分配到的也非常有限。國中小老舊校舍的整建，現在是回到地方政府，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["邱委員志偉：有時候地方政府在分配上不像中央那麼有效率，因此我感到很擔心，未來有急迫性的或有危險性的部分，是不是可以由教育部接手進行專案補助，也就你們將它做一個分級？你懂我的意思嗎？部長，那麼多的老舊廁所一定有優先性或急迫性的部分，是不是可以由教育部優先補助？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的關心，確實過去我們對於許多類似這樣的狀況都是向行政院申請專案的方式來支持，當然在財劃法修法之後，我想我們也會持續向行政院尋求能否以專案支持。"],["邱委員志偉：有一個專案，就像老舊廁所修繕的方式一樣。","為什麼我會請高教司呢？因為半導體高教人才的培育非常重要，半導體需要人才，我不知道在過去三年針對半導體人才增加了多少的招生員額？"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，針對這些半導體或資通訊產業，目前我們核給學校是外加名額的方式，近三年的……"],["邱委員志偉：總額是多少？"],["廖司長高賢：是不是可以會後再提供數據給委員？就是每個學年度……"],["邱委員志偉：應該要多啦！"],["廖司長高賢：是。"],["邱委員志偉：因為人才不夠，一定要給他們多一點彈性、多一點充裕的人才、多一點的補助，讓他們可以開更多的課程來培育半導體人才。"],["廖司長高賢：報告委員，除了一般學校開設的半導體課程之外，我們也有6個學校有半導體的學院，它的相關名額也是以外加的方式……"],["邱委員志偉：你要設定一個總目標，譬如三年之內要培育5,000或1萬名半導體人才，先設定這個總目標之後，再交由分區的大學去執行。這個應該是由上而下，並不是由下而上，我覺得這個應該從政策層面去做，而不是在執行層面去處理。關於這個部分，請會後再給我一些資料，麻煩、謝謝司長了。","為什麼我會請國際司呢？教育部有外派教育組的同仁，總共有幾個駐外館處有編制教育部的外派人員，有幾個國家？"],["李司長毓娟：我們總共應該有29個國家。"],["邱委員志偉：不能說應該有，而是要真的有，還是怎麼樣？你這個司長應該要很清楚這個數字，既然我問你了，你一定要很清楚，有幾個國家？"],["李司長毓娟：29個。"],["邱委員志偉：我們派駐多少同仁出去？"],["李司長毓娟：目前是有41人。"],["邱委員志偉：29個國家，麻煩你等下再提供駐外的館處及人員的配置。"],["李司長毓娟：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我們常常會去許多國家進行國會外交，外館的同仁也會向我們反映，我們重視與東北亞的關係，其實東北亞也就是日本與南韓，日本的部分沒有問題，人員充裕，但韓國相對不夠，因此，從地緣政治、地緣經濟、地緣文化而言，我認為無論是文化部或教育部，針對駐韓代表處的教育組人員應該要增聘人力，目前沒有嘛！"],["李司長毓娟：目前有一位組長與一位秘書。"],["邱委員志偉：目前是有2位？"],["李司長毓娟：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我的理解是似乎不夠，你們思考看看！"],["李司長毓娟：是。"],["邱委員志偉：全盤做一個有效率的分配，針對需求、必要性與急迫性，派駐教育部的同仁到各駐外館處協助館務的推動。"],["李司長毓娟：是。"],["邱委員志偉：再來要請部長……"],["主席：請注意時間喔！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的提醒，確實隨著國際上的外交發展及產業布局，我們也與外交部提過在外交人力的配置上是否能夠擴充，事實上也是我們與外交部努力合作的議題，但是人力問題也與人事總處相關……"],["邱委員志偉：你們派出去的人員，要給他……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們整個……"],["邱委員志偉：應該要有一個任務導向，並不是一般性的任務，你們應該要給予他特定的任務。"],["鄭部長英耀：報告委員，事實上，我們也有針對這個部分去思考，希望能夠擴充外交……"],["主席：部長，請做書面回復。時間長度要把握好。"],["鄭部長英耀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請楊瓊瓔委員進行質詢，時間為4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db66785d4cd5ba16557bc2e7a8918bc9e770febda90f1cdde8289e2bfcd57ebc68f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp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13:21:46","影片長度":"00:05:47","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T13:15:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T13:21:46+08:00","duration":347,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.114093750000002,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.847843750000003,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.42909375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.59971875,"end":109.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.84909375000001,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.91659375,"end":111.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.68846875000001,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.44659375,"end":127.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.85971875000001,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.28534375000001,"end":127.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.07846875,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.89221875,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.59659375,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.96784375000001,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.70971875,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.62096875,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.17346875,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.21096875,"end":146.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.91096875,"end":148.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.37909375,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.07846875,"end":155.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.31034375000002,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.69659375,"end":173.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.22346875000002,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.99534375000002,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.48846875,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.55534375000002,"end":186.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.86284375000002,"end":190.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.21221875,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.25346875000002,"end":196.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.08784375000002,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.53471875000002,"end":223.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.75971875000002,"end":232.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.70346875,"end":241.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.88471875000002,"end":234.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.61346875,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.21659375000002,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.28784375,"end":246.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.35471875000002,"end":252.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.61596875,"end":257.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.34096875,"end":265.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.98096875000005,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.93409375000005,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.49846875000003,"end":279.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.43034375,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.06096875000003,"end":297.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.68471875,"end":306.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.78909375,"end":308.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.45971875000004,"end":309.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.36659375,"end":316.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.04471875,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.00659375000004,"end":324.52034375},{"speaker":"SP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我們邀請勞動部部長也請洪部長張委員好 部長好這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐故事的事情那其實也引發許多社會的輿論但今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了主要就是來到我們在2019年長榮航空的空服員罷工的時候下夜"},{"start":32.942,"end":53.682,"text":"公會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步那現在就想來討論一個核心的精神到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀因為過去以來我想我們在很多的不管是媒體的"},{"start":54.643,"end":74.029,"text":"論述上或是我們在社會上的價值都會覺得說哇這個人很努力工作盡心盡力是一個美德但是如果這樣子的文化但是這樣子的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值其實也容易變成是勞工的不合理的要求和自我剝削那我想請教部長就是說過去台灣被稱作勞動過勞之島"},{"start":77.97,"end":98.61,"text":"但是這麼多年過去了我們還是無法擺脫這樣子的惡名那我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論就是說我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論就是說像是病假權保障與懲罰性機制就是說企業已扣分啦"},{"start":99.27,"end":118.638,"text":"影響選班啦 考今年中等的方式來間接懲罰你請病假那是否我們可以視為它是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢部長您的看法是委員在問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題那我自己是認為就是說"},{"start":121.499,"end":147.851,"text":"如果勞工明明就是已經生病了那他其實明明現在就是該請病假休息那卻要硬撐著來上班來繼續做他的工作那我認為這不應該被視為是一種好像企業正向的文化所以在這個狀況下我自己也認為這種勞工生病卻撐著不休息不應該被制度性的鼓勵"},{"start":148.447,"end":153.684,"text":"所以聽起來就是部長您也非常認同他其實是妨礙他們請病假的權利嘛也是一種不當的管理 對嗎"},{"start":156.578,"end":178.927,"text":"這是不是不當的管理當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實蠻多的可是至少我自己是覺得說你如果他明明就是明確他就是已經生病了那可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來那我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事好那我想這個是我們應該調整的方向對嗎"},{"start":181.801,"end":202.518,"text":"我認為我們在這個目標上面然後來看哪些做法相關的作為來去處理這樣子的樣態嘛對不對對我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步的來前進吧相關這個請病假的權利有更多的保障讓勞工不會用一種被制度性的方式好像被嚇阻了這樣子"},{"start":203.137,"end":222.994,"text":"好了解那第二個就是說有就是有關於職災與過勞的認定喔那不曉得說在這個case上面我們有沒有進行的這個職業病或是職災因果的評估那評估的項目有沒有包含到公事輪班跨時區醫組跟組織壓力那目前我們在如果已經做了職災那目前的進度大概是什麼"},{"start":224.132,"end":251.769,"text":"我們會當然會在這個案例裡面做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查不過這部分的確他會比較專業他也涉及到一些專業的認定所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間所以我們現在是還沒啟動其實我們當然有初步的一些了解可是可能還需要更多的資訊所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員來做一些訪談"},{"start":252.677,"end":278.884,"text":"了解 那我們預估是大概什麼時候會有一個初步的報告呢或是結論職業病跟職災的判斷其實可能會要真的要時間比較久通常職業病跟職災的判斷會需要的時間真的會比較多大概會是什麼時候我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續嗎因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛所以大概什麼時間會比較好來追後續這件事情是不是先兩個月我們一個初步的了解好不好"},{"start":279.465,"end":296.735,"text":"好沒有問題因為其實我也只是想要了解說我們到底有沒有什麼樣子的更積極的我們從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來去面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的這樣子的一個事件那我也想再請教一下就是說在我們整個事件發生到現在"},{"start":299.556,"end":316.866,"text":"他被拒絕請病假那算不算一種職場霸凌呢也就是說在我們現在的如果拒絕請病假這直接是違法的違法如果拒絕請病假僱主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假這個事情有發生這直接就是違反勞基法了對"},{"start":318.109,"end":347.409,"text":"所以這個我們就是他也不用放在這個霸凌裡面嗎他就是聽起來就是在直接原本的勞基法裡面去在勞基法裡面對就是不能就這不用談霸不霸凌的問題如果拒絕請病假就是不行這就是違法的好了解好那我想就是說因為我時間也到了那我今天我想就是在我們具體的作為上面呢我們在兩個月我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的一個精進做法所以之後兩個月之後我們會來持續的跟龍龍部來追蹤謝謝"},{"start":348.13,"end":348.292,"text":"谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1131,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（13時16分）謝謝主席，我們邀請勞動部部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。這幾天我想大家都非常關注有關於長榮航空空姐過世的事情，其實也引發許多社會的輿論，今天我就不詳細講這個事件的經過了。其實在2019年長榮航空空服員罷工的時候，工會就已經對長榮的排班以及請假制度提出了很多的不滿，但是當時的資方只有做出部分的讓步。現在我就想來討論一個核心的精神，到底我們是不是已經理所當然的接受了敬業比健康更重要的這個價值觀？","因為過去以來，我想我們在很多的，不管是媒體的論述上或是我們在社會上的價值，都會覺得說這個人很努力工作、盡心盡力是一個美德，但是這樣的文化不僅是一個錯誤的價值，其實也容易變成是對於勞工不合理的要求和自我剝削。我想請教部長的就是說，過去臺灣被稱做過勞之島，這麼多年過去了，我們還是無法擺脫這樣的惡名。我有兩個方向想要從這個case上面來跟部長討論，我們是不是可以從這兩個面向來討論，第一個是病假權保障與懲罰性機制，就是企業以扣分、影響選班、考績、年終等方式來間接懲罰你請病假，是否我們可以視為這是妨礙病假權或是不當管理呢？部長，您的看法如何？"],["洪部長申翰：是，委員問的這個問題其實就是今天大家都很關注的一個主題，我自己是認為如果勞工明明就已經生病了，他明明就是該請病假休息，卻要硬撐著來上班繼續工作，我認為這不應該被視為是一種企業正向的文化。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["洪部長申翰：所以在這個狀況下，我自己也認為勞工生病卻撐著不休息是不應該被制度性的鼓勵。"],["張委員雅琳：所以聽起來就是部長也非常認同這其實是妨礙了他們請病假的權利嘛，也是一種不當的管理，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這是不是不當的管理，當然因為不當管理或者是不利對待的樣態其實滿多的，可是至少我自己是覺得說，他明確的就已經生病了，可是卻用各種制度的方式讓他不敢提出來，我認為這對企業的文化或企業的治理來說應該不是一件好事。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想這個就是我們應該要調整的方向，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們在這個目標上面，然後來看有哪些作法……"],["張委員雅琳：我們應該要有相關的作為去處理這樣的樣態嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我覺得朝著這個方向看怎麼逐步地來前進，讓相關請病假的權利能有更多的保障、讓勞工不會好像是被制度性的方式嚇阻了。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。第二個就是有關於職災與過勞的認定，不曉得在這個case上面我們有沒有進行職業病或是職災的因果評估？評估項目有沒有包含到工時、輪班、跨時區、醫囑跟組織壓力？我們如果已經有做職災因果評估，目前的進度大概是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然會就這個案例去做職災或職業病相關的了解跟調查，不過這個部分的確會比較專業，也涉及到一些專業的認定，所以這部分確實也會需要一點時間。"],["張委員雅琳：所以現在還沒啟動？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們有初步的一些了解，可是可能還需要更多的資訊，所以接下來我們會跟相關的機組員做一些訪談。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，那預估大概什麼時候會有初步的報告或是結論？"],["洪部長申翰：職業病跟職災的判斷真的時間要比較久，通常職業病跟職災的判斷需要的時間真的會比較多。"],["張委員雅琳：大概會是什麼時候？我們可以再來追蹤進一步的後續，因為我也不可能兩個禮拜就來追你一次嘛，所以大概什麼時間後續來追蹤這件事情會比較好？"],["林署長毓堂：委員，是不是先兩個月我們有一個初步的了解，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒有問題，其實我也只是想要了解到底有沒有什麼樣子更積極的方式，從這些case上面可以找到一些方法跟手段來面對現在企業阻止勞工請病假的事件。","我也想再請教一下，整個事件發生到現在，他被拒絕請病假，那算不算一種職場霸凌呢？也就是說，在我們現在的……"],["洪部長申翰：如果拒絕請病假，就直接是違法的。"],["張委員雅琳：被拒絕是違法，那是不是有符合……"],["洪部長申翰：如果雇主或企業直接拒絕勞工請病假，如果這種事情有發生，這直接就是違反勞基法。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以它也不用放在霸凌裡面嘛，聽起來就是直接在原本的勞基法裡面去處理。"],["洪部長申翰：在勞基法裡面就是不能拒絕，這不用談霸不霸凌的問題，如果拒絕請病假就是不行，這就是違法的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。因為我的時間也到了，在具體的作為上面再給兩個月的時間，我想還是從這個case來看看我們可以再有什麼樣更好的精進作法，所以兩個月之後我們會持續跟勞動部來追蹤，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的發言。","下一位請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6dbaba54f40d20110bc2e7a8918bc9e770febda90f1cdde82d71fa32a71faafad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:00:45 - 13:15:41","影片長度":"00:14:56","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T13:00:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T13:15:41+08:00","duration":896,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.77221875,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.547843750000002,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.44159375,"end":19.133468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.73971875,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.17409375,"end":31.519718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.88159375,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.21909375,"end":38.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.79284375,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.89409375,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.41721875,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.03721875,"end":41.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.89784375,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.91409375,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.406593750000006,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.13596875,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.75284375000001,"end":85.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.56596875000001,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.67971875,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.99596875,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.39659375000001,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.91534375,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.85596875,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.95284375,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.46721875,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.50096875000001,"end":97.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.24346875,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.75784375,"end":108.89159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.43159375,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.28346875000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.42659375000001,"end":114.86534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.13471875,"end":119.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.92784375000001,"end":122.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.67846875000001,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.31096875,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.14596875,"end":128.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.93909375,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.68471875,"end":137.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.78596875,"end":138.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.32159375,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.19909375,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.76846875,"end":141.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.19034375,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.14284375,"end":151.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.16784375,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.67784375000002,"end":155.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.39471875,"end":162.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.18721875,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.74409375000002,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.38534375,"end":164.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.45659375000002,"end":170.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.69221875000002,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.34096875,"end":198.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.27409375000002,"end":199.57784375},{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請不好意思"},{"start":27.959,"end":54.996,"text":"欸 部長我還沒有點你欸 我想說你在吃飯我先 先那個好了 先民進黨局何局長好了好 先請何局長局長 我還是先把你的問題我只問一題 所以比較快速你大概講一下 就是說"},{"start":57.25,"end":85.401,"text":"航空器飛行作業管理規則第36條之二還有第231條大概都有針對飛機的主原因疾病疲勞等可能影響飛安情況進行規範跟處置方式在這一次的事件中這個空姐已經多次表達表達嚴重身體有嚴重的不適那沒有充分休息"},{"start":86.736,"end":94.152,"text":"所以他違反了這個法規對不對 有沒有"},{"start":96.381,"end":117.233,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在看到就是說去了解就是說他出勤的時候我們現在要再確認就是說這一位空服員他在從桃園因為他是從桃園飛米蘭這個部分他是不是屬於身體是適合飛航的那基本上如果根據報告來講他並沒有"},{"start":120.275,"end":135.647,"text":"說明說他自己不適合飛航那在回程 從米蘭因為他們中間有一個在外站休息嘛25號早上的時候依據報告來講是也沒有報告上也沒有提出說有"},{"start":136.867,"end":155.832,"text":"不是的 也沒有提出報告上都沒有續名的對 就是說組員沒提出就是說組員沒有提出來所以如果他有提出應該是可以有一些他只要有提出就會過程對 如果有提出可是這個部分在目前的所以他沒有提出啊"},{"start":156.671,"end":175.054,"text":"目前的資料上顯示是這樣所以這部分我們會再進一步去了解那在飛機上執勤的時候有表達有不舒服所以有安排他做業務的調整局長我想這樣子啦就是說因為航空業呢就是"},{"start":176.494,"end":197.311,"text":"算是一個特許的行業公部門應該理論上可以做監督的力道也大一點我覺得你們應該還是要去做全盤的一個考量然後看怎麼改善相關的勞工環境的改善計畫"},{"start":200.052,"end":217.364,"text":"謝謝委員 我們這部分會要求長榮做一個深刻的檢討我們也會去根據他的部分我們也會做一個深入調查對 也不只長榮就國際航空都一併做處理好 謝謝局長 局長請回主席我請一下洪思安部長有請洪部長"},{"start":222.942,"end":245.683,"text":"養委員好 部長好 抱歉 吳委員會吵到大家吃飯的時間都沒有了 所以很抱歉請教一下部長 長榮航空近年來其實有多次被勞動部開罰的紀錄有媒體反映出來就是說"},{"start":246.644,"end":274.89,"text":"有員工反映公司對於升遷有嚴格的規定就是假如請假就會嚴重影響升遷我想請教一下部長就是對於此案未來行政調查的重點方向會是什麼那有關公司把員工的出行記錄當作升遷的一個標準是不是會是一個調查的重點"},{"start":277.448,"end":293.67,"text":"跟委員說明那當然我們接下來會去調查的部分也包括會對於這些相關的機組員的訪談這部分我們會盡量希望能夠還原這位這位過世的機組"},{"start":295.112,"end":313.548,"text":"過世的組員他生前所遇到的狀況這是重點那第二個是當然現在大家很關心就是病假尤其是病假因為這次的機組員他其實是身體是有狀況的那病假會不會影響到相關的權益所以"},{"start":314.449,"end":332.11,"text":"我想這部分我們當然現在也在做一些檢視那的確我們也不希望說勞工生病那卻必須要硬撐著不休息好像這件事情是被鼓勵的因為這的確是從職場健康的角度來說這是有負面效果的"},{"start":332.95,"end":351.22,"text":"過去的確有看到有一些職場的文化變得好像企業是在用他自己內部的機力或者是企業內部治理的機制在鼓勵大家要硬撐可是常常硬撐反而演變成更大的問題或更大的風險這部分我覺得我們也會來正視這個問題"},{"start":357.216,"end":384.788,"text":"部長講到病假我有個問題跟部長做個討論部長大概早上部長有講說病假沒收全勤獎金不合理所以未來可能會用制度性要求來保障勞工權益我想要請教一下部長這個想法你是"},{"start":387.355,"end":411.118,"text":"怎麼產生的就病假沒收全勤獎金不合理應該是說我如果更清楚再說明假設勞工請一兩天的病假你就把他一整個月的全勤獎金都沒收那我認為這其實是有待商榷也不合理的狀況這有可能會變成剛才說的好像變成制度性去"},{"start":412.638,"end":433.406,"text":"勸阻勞工自己提出站在勞工的立場我們絕對會很希望能夠確保勞工的任何權益可是這邊提醒部長就是說全營獎金它並不是每一家公司都有假如說我們從制度面或法律面來強制併價"},{"start":441.095,"end":448.754,"text":"不能扣除全金獎金可能會有很多會有很多公司反而把全金獎金拿掉"},{"start":450.117,"end":475.775,"text":"因為全勤獎金並不是每一家公司都有我跟文說明他其實這個想法的概念或這個製度保障的概念是來自於其實在蠻多的法院的判決有判決說其實全勤獎金算是勞工工資的一部分所以他在性質上認定的工資的一部分部長 工資的一部分"},{"start":476.556,"end":498.819,"text":"跟是不是常態普遍的工資是兩回事對公司有設全景獎金它當然是工資的一部分可是很多公司事實上是沒有全景獎金的是 也有那會不會因為因為我們因為你目前的政策方向是假如請病假"},{"start":500.373,"end":528.266,"text":"依然要給全勤獎金所以造成不能把整個月的全勤獎金都沒收因為要不要設全勤獎金並不是法律面可以干涉的是企業自己來做決定那假如說我們的政策方向變成並價不能影響全勤獎金反而會讓很多廣大的勞工"},{"start":529.844,"end":558.792,"text":"就是讓企業取消全薪獎金讓勞工反而受損你懂我的意思嗎跟委員對跟委員說明其實我們涉及的因為他有一個前提是因為法院判決不是不是我就講說法院很多法院判決全薪獎金算是工資的一部分那所以因為他是工資的一部分所以其實他也不能夠片面的自己取消是嗎"},{"start":562.046,"end":563.151,"text":"公司不能自己決定"},{"start":564.028,"end":589.42,"text":"跟委員報告如同委員說的現在的這個全勤獎金因為在法律上實務上面跟行政機關跟司法機關都認定是工資那基本上如果雙方私契約勞動契約已經都約定了有全勤獎金這樣的一個勞動契約的內容那基本上如果一方要變更的話要經雙方同意不是我現在的意思是說他從企業的規定"},{"start":594.596,"end":612.35,"text":"可能你已經入職的因為勞動契約所以你還是有前進獎金他會不會以後就不給前進獎金懂我的意思嗎他當然是公知的一部分這個沒有任何的爭議只是說我們在"},{"start":614.211,"end":632.467,"text":"在想從制度保障員工權益的時候不能單想一個點就是說單想一個點的風險會讓很多很多人反而死去我們的確現在在考慮的是說比方說你如果是請一兩天的病假假如不是不是我現在講"},{"start":634.269,"end":661.203,"text":"不是你又不能把整個月也許你要不要說按比例我知道你的意思啦只是說我也了解我們也都一樣是想要保障勞工的權益甚至於是看能不能增加他的福利啦只是說有的政策在推動譬如說我就講說"},{"start":662.952,"end":675.503,"text":"全景獎金假如不是每一家公司每一個企業都有假如不是那會不會因為我們把病假"},{"start":677.274,"end":699.726,"text":"請病假不影響前景獎金反而讓很多企業取消他的前景獎金制度啦我現在在講的是這個概念啦就是說整個政策的推出不能夠只看一個點啦我當然希望真的如部長的想法就是一方面"},{"start":701.543,"end":727.145,"text":"請併價不影響全景獎金另外一方面企業又可以一直維持全景獎金的制度甚至於我更希望每一個企業在穩定發展的路徑中全部都設有全景獎金可是問題是全景獎金設與不設是在企業的決策"},{"start":728.673,"end":745.655,"text":"是在企業的決策我剛才是在提醒部長說你會不會因為請病假不影響到全勤獎金所以影響到企業決策反而損害到原有的勞工權益"},{"start":747.773,"end":763.99,"text":"跟委員說我們當然不希望損害到勞工的權益我們會來把委員的提醒我們再把它納入更廣泛的考慮但是我覺得最核心的概念是希望說不要讓企業用一些這種"},{"start":766.777,"end":789.445,"text":"獎懲的方式或者他設計這個獎懲的方式反而讓很多勞工他明明已經生病他其實該請假可是卻不敢請他這個獎懲把把這個事情跟獎懲的連動啦那全新獎金是這個獎懲或者是不利待遇大家認知的不利待遇的某一個例子或一部分可是我們原初的概念是希望這個能夠"},{"start":791.827,"end":817.148,"text":"如果勞工真的生病該請假休息就讓他請假休息不要釀成更大的問題這個當然 任何的遺憾都不是我們設計的概念出發點會是來自這個事情但是委員的提醒我們也把它納入來思考就是說很多有關政策面也好 法律面也好要去做的都不能是"},{"start":819.13,"end":838.227,"text":"譬如說我就講說不是每一個企業都設有這個獎金當然他設的獎金他就變成工資的一部分可是不能反推說他原本就是他的工資因為這個是企業決策如果有設的話就是工資的一部分可是要不要要不要設"},{"start":841.348,"end":856.928,"text":"要不要設 並不是法律可以干涉的那我的擔憂是會不會 我在提醒部裡面說會不會我們為了要保護勞工所以把請病假"},{"start":858.524,"end":878.635,"text":"不可以扣他的前景獎金反而讓契約政策轉變把原本的前景獎金取消我在講的是這件事整個政策面的推動也好 法律面的修正也好有的時候必須要顧慮到"},{"start":880.896,"end":894.402,"text":"到整體性然後是不是有辦法真正的強制到企業去做到落實勞工的原意好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1058,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時）謝謝主席。這實在是很不好意思，部長，我還沒有點你耶，我想說你在吃飯，我先請民航局何局長好了。"],["主席：麻煩請何局長。"],["楊委員曜：局長，因為你的部分我只問一題，所以比較快速，你就大概講一下。航空器飛航作業管理規則第三十六條之二及第二百三十一條大概都有針對飛機的組員因疾病、疲勞等可能影響飛安情況做了規範跟處置方式，在這一次的事件中，這位空姐已經多次表達身體嚴重不適、沒有充分休息，所以是有違反這個法規，對不對？有沒有？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，我們現在了解的就是他出勤的時候……我們現在要再確認的就是這位空服員從桃園出發時的身體是否適合飛航，因為他是從桃園飛米蘭的，基本上，如果根據報告來講，他並沒有說明他自己不適合飛航；至於在從米蘭的回程之前，中間有一段時間是在外站休息，25號早上的時候，依據報告來講，報告上也沒有提出說有不適……"],["楊委員曜：喔，也沒有提出？"],["何局長淑萍：沒有，報告上都沒有敘明。"],["楊委員曜：喔？"],["何局長淑萍：就是說組員沒有提出來，如果他有提出，應該是可以有一些……"],["楊委員曜：他假如有提出，就會構成嘛？"],["何局長淑萍：應該要……對，如果有提出，可是這個部分在目前的……"],["楊委員曜：所以他沒有提出啊？"],["何局長淑萍：目前的資料上顯示是這樣，所以這部分我們會再進一步去了解。在飛機上執勤的時候有表達不舒服，所以有安排他做業務的調整，可是報告……"],["楊委員曜：局長，我想這樣子啦，因為航空業算是一個特許行業，公部門理論上可以做監督的力道也大一點，我覺得你們應該還是要去做全盤的考量，然後看看怎麼去做相關勞動環境的改善計畫，好不好？"],["何局長淑萍：謝謝委員，這個部分我們會要求長榮做深刻的檢討，我們也會根據他的部分去做一個深入調查。"],["楊委員曜：也不只長榮啦……"],["何局長淑萍：對，其他航空……"],["楊委員曜：國籍航空都一併做處理。"],["何局長淑萍：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝局長，局長請回。","主席，我請一下洪申翰部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。不好意思，委員會操成這樣，大家連吃飯的時間也都沒有，這個真的很不好意思。"],["洪部長申翰：不會。"],["楊委員曜：請教一下部長，長榮航空近年來其實有多次被勞動部開罰的紀錄，媒體的報導是有員工反映公司對於升遷有嚴格的規定，假如請假就會嚴重影響升遷，我想請教一下部長，對於此案未來行政調查的重點方向會是什麼？有關公司把員工的出勤紀錄當作升遷的一個標準，這是不是一個調查的重點？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們接下來會去調查的部分，包括會對於這些相關機組員的訪談，我們希望能夠儘量還原這位過世組員生前所遇到的狀況，這是重點。第二個是現在大家很關心病假，尤其是病假，因為這次的這位機組員其實身體是有狀況的，那病假會不會影響到相關的權益？我想這部分我們現在也在做一些檢視，的確，我們也不希望勞工生病卻必須要硬撐著不休息，變成這件事情好像是被鼓勵的，因為從職場健康的角度來說，這是有負面效果的。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：過去的確有看到一些職場文化變得好像企業是用內部激勵或者是企業內部治理的機制在鼓勵大家要硬撐啦，可是常常硬撐反而演變成更大的問題或更大的風險，我們也會來正視這個問題。"],["楊委員曜：部長講到病假，我有個問題跟部長做個討論，早上部長有說請病假沒收全勤獎金不合理，所以未來可能會以制度性要求來保障勞工權益，我想請教一下部長，這個想法你是怎麼產生的？就是請病假沒收全勤獎金不合理。"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說，如果更清楚的說明是，假設勞工請一兩天的病假，你就把他一整個月的全勤獎金都沒收，我認為這其實是有待商榷，也是不合理的狀況，這有可能會變成剛才說的，好像變成制度性去勸阻勞工自己提出……"],["楊委員曜：站在勞工的立場，我們絕對會很希望能夠確保勞工的任何權益，可是在這邊要提醒部長的是說，全勤獎金並不是每一家公司都有，假如我們從制度面或法律面來強制請病假不能扣除全勤獎金，可能會有很多公司反而把全勤獎金拿掉，因為全勤獎金並不是每一家公司都有的。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，這個想法的概念或這個制度保障的概念是來自於滿多的法院判決，有判決提到其實全勤獎金算是勞工工資的一部分……"],["楊委員曜：沒有，它是工資……"],["洪部長申翰：所以在性質上認定為工資的一部分。"],["楊委員曜：部長，工資的一部分跟是不是常態普遍的工資是兩回事。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：公司有設全勤獎金，當然是工資的一部分，可是很多公司事實上是沒有全勤獎金的……"],["洪部長申翰：是，也有。"],["楊委員曜：那會不會因為你目前的政策方向是請病假依然要給全勤獎金，所以造成很多……"],["洪部長申翰：不能把整個月的全勤獎金都沒收。"],["楊委員曜：因為要不要設全勤獎金並不是法律面可以干涉的，是企業自己做決定，假如說我們的政策方向變成病假不能影響全勤獎金，反而會讓很多廣大的勞工……就是讓企業取消全勤獎金，勞工反而受損，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，跟委員說明，其實在我們的設計上有一個前提，因為法院判決全勤獎金……"],["楊委員曜：不是，我就講說……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，很多法院的判決提到全勤獎金算是工資的一部分，因為是工資的一部分，所以其實也不能夠片面的自己取消。"],["楊委員曜：是嗎？公司不能自己決定要不要……"],["黃司長琦雅：跟委員報告，如同委員所說的，現在的這個全勤獎金，因為在法律上及實務上，行政機關跟司法機關都認定是工資，基本上，如果雙方私契約的勞動契約已經約定了有全勤獎金這樣一個勞動契約內容，一方要變更的話，要經雙方同意，因為它已經成為勞動契約的內容。"],["楊委員曜：不是，我現在的意思是說，從企業的規定來說，對於已經入職的人，因為勞動契約的關係，所以你還是有全勤獎金，但公司會不會以後就不給全勤獎金了？懂我的意思嗎？它當然是工資的一部分，這個沒有任何的爭議，只是說，我們想從制度來保障員工權益的時候，不能單講一個點，單講一個點的風險會讓很多人反而失去……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們的確現在在考慮的是，比方說你如果是請一兩天的病假，假如……"],["楊委員曜：不是、不是！部長，我知道……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我現在講的是不能把整個月的……"],["楊委員曜：我知道你的意思。"],["洪部長申翰：比方說要不要按比例……"],["楊委員曜：我知道你的意思，我也了解，我們也都一樣是想要保障勞工的權益，甚至是看能不能增加他的福利，只是有的政策在推動時，譬如我剛剛已經講過了，全勤獎金假如不是每一個企業都有的，假如不是，那會不會因為我們把請病假不影響全勤獎金予以制度化，反而讓很多企業取消全勤獎金制度，我現在講的是這個概念啦！就是說，整個政策的推出不能夠只看一個點，我當然希望真的如部長的想法，就是一方面請病假不影響全勤獎金，另外一方面企業又可以一直維持全勤獎金的制度，甚至於我更希望每一個企業在穩定發展的路徑中全部都設有全勤獎金，可問題是全勤獎金設與不設是企業的決策……"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["楊委員曜：我剛才是在提醒部長，會不會因為規範了請病假不影響全勤獎金，進而影響到企業的決策，反而損害到原有勞工的權益啦！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們當然不希望損害到勞工的權益，我們會把委員的提醒再納入更廣泛的考慮。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：但是我覺得最核心的概念是希望說，不要讓企業用這種獎懲的方式或者是他所設計的其他獎懲方式，反而讓很多勞工明明已經生病、應該請假的，可是卻不敢請假，把這個事情跟獎懲連動了，全勤獎金是這個獎懲或者是大家認知的不利待遇的某一個例子或一部分，可是我們原初的概念是希望如果勞工真的生病，該請假休息就讓他請假休息，不要釀成更大的問題。"],["楊委員曜：這個當然，任何的遺憾都不是我們希望的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們設計的概念及出發點會是來自這件事，但是委員的提醒我們也把它納入來思考。"],["楊委員曜：就是說很多有關的政策面也好、法律面也好，要去做的都不能是……譬如我剛剛提到的，不是每一個企業都設有這個獎金，當然如果有設獎金就變成工資的一部分，可是不能反推說這原本就是他的工資，因為這個是企業決策要不要給……"],["洪部長申翰：如果有設的話，就是工資的一部分。"],["楊委員曜：對、對、對，可是要不要……"],["洪部長申翰：判決是這樣的。"],["楊委員曜：可是要不要設這個獎金並不是法律可以干涉的。"],["洪部長申翰：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員曜：我的擔憂跟我要提醒部裡面的是，會不會我們為了要保護勞工而規範請病假不可以扣全勤獎金，反而讓企業的政策轉變，把原本的全勤獎金取消，我在講的是這件事。"],["洪部長申翰：我聽懂委員的提醒，我們來……"],["楊委員曜：對，整個政策面的推動也好或法律面的修正也好，有的時候必須要顧慮到整體性，是不是有辦法真正的強制企業去落實到照顧勞工的原意，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["楊委員曜：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請陳瑩委員，陳瑩委員改書面質詢。","下一位請羅明才委員，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","下一位請顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員，顏寬恒委員不在。","下一位請張雅琳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6c68b7c250ecca98832e8c280ed77980f0febda90f1cdde82f1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:12:01 - 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林部長請"},{"start":12.131,"end":32.903,"text":"部長好那延續剛才的委員提到的這個通訊任性的問題我們繼續來去做相關的詢詢那在這次的風災之後我們發覺到幾件事情第一鄉鎮公所有些時候面臨到的是他除了這個沒有電之外甚至有通訊也出現問題是那甚至連隔壁的就是在鄉公所旁邊也會有消防機關"},{"start":33.723,"end":61.969,"text":"那相關機關也沒有電甚至通訊也出現問題那我覺得這個就不符合我們全社會任性的一個目標這其實是非常嚴重的問題那這一個問題我想把它帶出來的原因是因為除了這個之外還有一些承包廠商承包廠商是負責什麼樣的負責道路的最基礎的清運他們被困在他們自己的住所出不來所以變成說整個救災的過程中第一個承包廠商沒有辦法出動重型機具來去把一些重要的道路清空"},{"start":62.62,"end":90.346,"text":"重要道路如果不能清空不能夠通暢的話那外面的救援進不來那附電附水那回覆通訊的時間又拉長所以我在這邊是希望具體的要求我們希望部長能夠來去各跟各個部門來去協調一下至少在負責這些重要主幹道或者是鄉鎮道路或者是這個協助這些第一時間來去回應救災的這些人員他至少要配備一些相關的不管是衛星電話也好"},{"start":90.866,"end":112.274,"text":"或者是基本的無線設備也好這個東西是我一直希望是數位部來去思考說要怎麼去解決的部長有什麼樣的看法有什麼樣的解決方案是 目前如果說要衛星通訊的話目前我們書發部採用的是OneWeb系統那OneWeb系統它有幾個缺點第一個是它的體積比較大而且它的費用比較高那我們現在在書發部正"},{"start":112.774,"end":130.671,"text":"跟國科會積極的跟Amazon的Kyper那邊在討論 在商談看能不能使用Kyper這個新的新系就是說多一種選擇而且我們希望它的價錢能比OneWeb更便宜這是一個部分然後剛才委員有提到一件事情就是"},{"start":131.111,"end":158.574,"text":"主幹道的事情就是我們事實上大部分的那個光纜的那個主幹也都會是沿著那個主幹道鋪設所以我們希望說這個光纜還有電線盡量能地下化就是地下化 如同我們剛剛講的就是說基地台會故障三大原因那個被整個基地台被吹倒其實除了丹納斯颱風以外其實在其他颱風發生或地震發生的頻率沒那麼高最多的問題其實是那個"},{"start":159.315,"end":187.592,"text":"沒有電那電線的話就有兩個解決方案一個是說我們就用柴油發電機移動式柴油發電機去那邊有電以後這個基地台就可以運作了另外一個我們就是就近看能不能找那個那個光電或者風電這個分散式的那個電力供應但是這會有些技術問題這個我們努力的在跟經濟部那邊討論看說有沒有辦法直接用那個就是分散式的電那個"},{"start":188.573,"end":210.923,"text":"那個綠電來供應我們這個基地台部長剛才我提到的有一點就是說負責去清運主要幹道就是說他們是要先有道路通領才會有救援人在水什麼電你要去台電等才能進來我說這些承包廠自己在家裡就受困出不來但同時又沒辦法聯絡所以我剛才提到的是說你有沒有其他相關的通訊配備未來你要盤點嘛"},{"start":211.863,"end":233.224,"text":"就是各個縣市各個鄉鎮公所到各個村裡那通常我們到鄉就好了比方說我們家一線有18個鄉鎮那這18個鄉鎮裡面你一開始就是有災害的時候那我們第一個鄉公所就會請人來趕快先把這些道路恢復原狀嘛那他們如果都出不來的話他們甚至我們不知道為什麼聯絡不到他他也聯絡不到我們所以這個指揮的節點那就是有一個空白點嘛"},{"start":233.624,"end":256.639,"text":"所以我的意思是說要盤點就是說從各個鄉鎮公所從通訊指揮的系統上面你必須至少要點對點剛才我們提到72個小時也好24小時 48小時也好如果遇到大規模這次是雲嘉南地區那如果是遇到全台灣市的整理的這個狀況的時候那就沒有辦法我們就可能沒辦法期待說72小時他也會辦法復原那這時候你就變成要調配"},{"start":257.239,"end":281.349,"text":"哪些有優先順序那優先順序裡面的哪一些指揮的連結的系統那就是點對點而不是全面性的網路跟電話恢復那這是在國家安全的前提之下我們必須要思考各個不同的優先次序所以我們當然是可以講說我要72小時我甚至可以要求延長到108個小時但是你沒有辦法在每個點都無限延長你沒有辦法在每個地方都配備柴油發電機"},{"start":283.089,"end":308.017,"text":"就是你的柴油要怎麼樣去分配你的柴油放電機怎麼去分配你怎麼樣把這些柴油再運輸到那個地方其實這是要整體去思考的所以優先資訊還是很重要那我們接下來來討論一下這個韓國資料庫燒毀的問題這個我覺得也很重要這個最近的國營韓國國營的資料中心因為火災導致大規模總共有74個單位是9萬1000公務員共同使用的雲端資料的資料都遺失掉甚至政府運作它是一度中斷"},{"start":308.997,"end":335.231,"text":"如果我們在備援上面有任何這樣子的問題這是我們要注意的那根據現行規範這個公部門的屹立備援是30公里但是國際上包含先進國家大概是在100公里以外這是我最後一個問題 不好意思趙偉讓我問這個問題那我想請教現在我們是30公里但國際上是100公里那如果是在同一個地震帶的話甚至是你就在隔壁的話那這個狀況是怎麼樣去處理可不可以請部長簡單回應一下"},{"start":336.97,"end":361.587,"text":"OK 簡單來講的話就是我們現在除了在台灣國內的意義備援以外我們也會做雲端的備援就是最關鍵的那些資料最關鍵的那些政府的系統我們會備援到雲端所謂的雲端就包含在那個國外的一些那個data center那我們這個國外的data center平常我們也不會說開放民眾使用所以我只是想確認在韓國發生的事情不會在台灣發生"},{"start":362.327,"end":389.476,"text":"OK 韓國那個事情有三件事情我都覺得很離譜第一件事情就是說為什麼他會把所有的政府機關的資料中心通通集中在一棟大樓裡面因為韓國跟我們一樣他有一個非常不友善的鄰居他怎麼會做這個事情我覺得非常不可思議第二件事情是他居然把不斷電系統的鋰電池跟電腦系統放在一起依照我們台灣政府的規定我們事實上"},{"start":391.616,"end":417.804,"text":"備用的電源像鋰電池這個你是不能跟那個電腦主機放在一起的結果他們就是因為這個電源那個放在一起起火鋰電池起火嘛那第三件事情就是他們居然很多的部門沒有備援沒有異地備援這個事情我們覺得說非常奇怪我們一直覺得說韓國是一個先進的國家韓國在許多政府的資訊化屏蔽裡面好像名列前茅可是他居然在這個事情上面居然做成這個樣子所以部長以上三點我們都不會發生"},{"start":419.745,"end":447.103,"text":"對 應該我們就確保不要發生就好這三點我們你剛才已經提到這三點那就不要讓它發生那第四點就是說包含消防設備的點檢就是定期的去檢查包含這些因為那是相關重要的這些機密機械那可能也不是用一般的消防防備去做那我知道內政部過去在一些重要基礎城市都有派警察去但是我下次質詢內政部的話可能就說不是警察而已還要包含消防的消防人員的這個設備人員要怎麼樣去盤點也很重要好 謝謝"},{"start":448.71,"end":449.083,"text":"谢谢委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1197,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時12分）召委，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：好，林部長請。"],["林部長宜敬：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。延續剛才委員提到的通訊韌性問題，我們繼續來做相關的質詢。在這一次風災之後，我們發覺到幾件事情：第一，鄉鎮公所有些時候面臨到的是，除了沒有電之外，甚至通訊也出現問題；在鄉公所旁邊也會有消防機關，消防機關也沒有電，甚至通訊也出現問題，我覺得這就不符合全社會防衛韌性的目標，這其實是非常嚴重的問題。"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：這一個問題的原因在於，除了這個之外，還有一些承包廠商，承包廠商是負責什麼？負責最基礎的道路清運，他們被困在他們自己的住所出不來，所以變成整個救災的過程中，第一個，承包廠商沒有辦法出動重型機具去把一些重要的道路清空，重要的道路如果不能清空、不能通暢的話，外面的救援進不來，復電、復水、回復通訊的時間又拉長。所以我在這邊具體的要求，我們希望部長能夠去跟各個部門協調一下，至少在負責這些重要主幹道、或者是鄉鎮道路、或者是協助第一時間回應救災的這些人員至少要配備一些相關的工具，不管是衛星電話也好、或者是基本的無線設備也好，這個東西我一直希望數位部思考要怎麼解決，部長有什麼樣的看法、有什麼樣的解決方案？"],["林部長宜敬：如果說要衛星通訊的話，目前我們數發部採用的是OneWeb系統，而OneWeb系統有幾個缺點，第一個是它的體積比較大、而且它的費用比較高，我們數發部現在與國科會正積極的跟Amazon的Kuiper那邊商談，看能不能使用Kuiper這個新系統，也就是多一種選擇，而且我們希望它的價錢能比OneWeb更便宜，這是一部分。","剛才委員有提到一件事情就是主幹道的事情，事實上，大部分的光纜主幹也都會沿著主幹道鋪設，所以我們希望光纜還有電線儘量能地下化就地下化，如同我剛才講的基地臺故障三大原因，關於整個基地臺被吹倒的，除了丹娜絲颱風以外，在其他颱風或地震時發生的頻率沒那麼高，最多的問題其實是沒有電。關於電線有兩個解決方案：一個是用移動式柴油發電機去到那邊，有電以後基地臺就可以運作了；另外，我們就近看能不能找光電或者風電等等分散式的電力供應，但是這會有一些技術問題，這部分我們努力的在跟經濟部那邊討論，看有沒有辦法直接用分散式的綠電來供應基地臺。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，剛才我提到的其中一點就是負責去清運主要幹道，也就是道路要先通了，他們才能進來救援水、電，台電的人才能進來。我說這些承包廠商自己在家裡就受困出不來，但同時又沒辦法聯絡，所以我剛才提到的是，你有沒有其他相關的通訊配備？未來你要盤點嘛，針對各個縣市、各個鄉鎮公所到各個村里！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們到鄉就好了，比方我們嘉義縣有18個鄉鎮，在這18個鄉鎮裡面，一開始有災害的時候，第一個，鄉公所就會請人趕快先把這些道路恢復原狀，他們如果都出不來的話，甚至我們不知道為什麼聯絡不到他、他也聯絡不到我們，所以這個指揮的節點就是有一個空白點嘛！所以我的意思是要盤點，就是從各個鄉鎮公所、從通訊指揮的系統上面，你至少要點對點……"],["林部長宜敬：是……"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才我們提到72個小時也好、48小時也好，這次是雲嘉南地區，如果是遇到全臺灣、大規模狀況的時候，我們可能就沒辦法期待72小時有辦法復原。"],["林部長宜敬：是！"],["陳委員冠廷：這時候你就變成要調配，看看哪些有優先順序、優先順序裡面有哪一些指揮連結系統，那就是點對點而不是全面性的網路跟電話恢復，這是在國家安全的前提之下，我們必須要思考各個不同的優先次序。我們當然跟你講說我要72小時，我甚至可以要求延長到108個小時，但是你沒有辦法在每個點都無限延長、你沒有辦法在每個地方都配備柴油發電機，還有你的柴油要怎麼樣分配、你的柴油發電機怎麼分配、你怎麼把這些柴油再運輸到那個地方，其實這是要整體去思考的，所以優先次序還是很重要。","我們接下來討論一下韓國資料庫燒毀的問題，這個我覺得也很重要。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：最近韓國國營的資料中心因為火災導致大規模總共有74個單位、十九萬多名公務員共同使用的雲端資料資料都遺失掉，甚至政府運作一度中斷，如果我們在備援上面有任何這樣子的問題，這是我們要注意的。","根據現行規範，公部門的異地備援是30公里，但是國際上、包含先進國家大概是在100公里以外，這是我的最後一個問題，不好意思召委，讓我問完這個問題。我想請教，現在我們是30公里，但國際上是100公里，如果在同一個地震帶、甚至就在隔壁的話，這個狀況要怎麼樣處理，可不可以請部長簡單回應一下？"],["林部長宜敬：簡單來講，我們現在除了在臺灣國內的異地備援以外，我們也會做雲端的備援，就是那些最關鍵的資料、最關鍵的政府系統我們會備援到雲端，所謂的雲端就包含在國外的一些data center，這個國外的data center平常我們也不會開放民眾使用……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我只是想確認，在韓國發生的事情不會在臺灣發生？"],["林部長宜敬：韓國那部分有三件事情我都覺得很離譜，第一件事情就是，為什麼他會把所有政府機關的資料中心通通集中在一棟大樓裡面，因為韓國跟我們一樣有一個非常不友善的鄰居，他怎麼會做這個事情，我覺得非常不可思議；第二件事情，他居然把不斷電系統的鋰電池跟電腦系統放在一起，依照我們臺灣政府的規定，備用的電源像鋰電池是不能跟電腦主機放在一起的，結果他們就是因為這個電源放在一起起火、鋰電池起火；第三件事情，他們居然很多部門沒有異地備援，這個事情我們覺得非常奇怪，我們一直覺得韓國是一個先進的國家，韓國在許多政府資訊化評比裡面好像名列前茅，可是他在這個事情上面居然做成這個樣子，我們覺得很奇怪！"],["陳委員冠廷：所以部長，以上三點我們都不會發生？"],["林部長宜敬：對，應該……"],["陳委員冠廷：我們確保不要發生就好了，你剛才已經提到這三點，那就不要讓它發生。"],["林部長宜敬：是、對！"],["陳委員冠廷：第四點就是，包含消防設備的點檢，就是定期的去檢查，因為那是相關、重要的精密機械，可能也不是用一般的消防防備去做，我知道內政部過去在一些重要基礎設施都有派警察去，我下次質詢內政部可能就會說不是警察而已，還要包含消防人員、設備人員要怎麼樣去盤點也很重要，謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、委員林國成所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並且刊登公報；三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請數發部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6408b260db7b35d8332e8c280ed77980f0febda90f1cdde820385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"13:05:07 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你只可以補助他你沒有辦法管理他"},{"start":179.458,"end":206.025,"text":"那NCC管理他所以就是說我當然是要要求你們源頭不能補助這麼多但我如果說要求源頭不能補助這麼多的時候真的這個重大災難來的時候我又要他表現得非常好這個又沒有道理所以是不是有一套比較好的一個方式當然我們希望逐年編逐年編把它編組可是問題就是說你們怎麼樣去管理他"},{"start":206.724,"end":227.835,"text":"是 目前如同委員所說到我們跟NCC的分工我覺得有點太複雜了我希望說在未來能跟NCC我們把這個責任我們把它定義得更分工跟責任把它定得更清楚這個當然是說還牽涉到行政院層級的一些事情那在短期來講的話我們當然是說"},{"start":229.896,"end":251.79,"text":"如同委員講的這次台南的救災我聽說連救災人員手機都沒有訊號所以在救災都發生一些問題所以我們也請我們任事應司就事後做檢討我們發現說基地台之所以會故障會有三種原因第一個是基地台本身倒掉第二個是它那個光纖網路斷掉第三個是電線斷掉沒有電"},{"start":253.231,"end":267.161,"text":"因為嘉義縣 嘉義縣導了很多就是他的那個電台那你想想看在我們這個學甲北門將軍尤其是我們北門跟將軍我們的氣功所的同仁他必須要出去了"},{"start":268.174,"end":286.151,"text":"一個小時然後再回到氣功所來這個報告整個災情非常不方便這個實在是讓我們覺得這裡不敢不敢怎麼辦就是從你這邊改善開始一般的一個電線跟通訊的電線都是掛在電線桿上面"},{"start":286.952,"end":304.891,"text":"都是挂在电线杆上面这个电线杆倒了以后你几乎你这一个就是那个通讯就完蛋了就没有办法没有办法就是说去接受到其实如果灾难来的时候你看气候异常这个我们不敢保证说下一次的台风什么时候来"},{"start":306.253,"end":322.628,"text":"那問題就是說在都會區他恐怕他的資源會多可是如果像在我們這個偏鄉有這麼多的一個困難我覺得這個數位部要想出一個更好的一個方式你怎麼樣全面的提升這個基地台的一個抗災的一個能量"},{"start":323.488,"end":349.883,"text":"這個是非常重要的他能夠抵抗那個16級的颱風然後不斷電72個小時還有主幹線地下化我想還有就是災難發生的時候你要整合跨業者的這個災難漫遊這個災難漫遊你看也是我們這個整個丹納斯颱風是在什麼時候才有這個漫遊出來已經都是超過好像是超過了"},{"start":350.703,"end":371.722,"text":"二十幾天喔二十幾天才出來了你們已經被我們我們大家都被罵到不知道該如何去檢討這一個問題所以說部長有沒有一個比較積極的一個方式可以回答本席其實最簡單的方法因為我們發現說那個沒有電這件事情最容易解決只要移動式的"},{"start":372.222,"end":397.281,"text":"那個柴油發電機就可以解決電的問題而且那個基地台故障裡面通常丹麥斯颱風比較特別一般來講最常出現的問題就是沒有電所以而且那個移動式那個柴油發電機是相對來講比較便宜的所以我們這個先會從這個地方來補強對 先從這個地方補強那後續的一個就是你們具體的一個方法是不是一個計畫是不是提供給本席是 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那有請部長林部長請"},{"start":19.884,"end":42.935,"text":"委員你好 部長好竹山仁 竹山之光 還接著部長還希望能夠責任重大還來帶領著這個速發部還在我們國內的整個數位提升及AI還都能夠持續推動相信許多的這個政策延續的部分跟之前黃部長相信都能夠有很好的一個延續"},{"start":43.815,"end":67.397,"text":"他也希望能夠在 尤其像南投縣 竹山鎮我們算是偏鄉地方他也能夠讓偏鄉 你也感受到地方的需求他也能夠來協助偏鄉能夠持續提升這個數位的落差能夠帶動地方的進步他也是跟部長您做期許跟勉勵也跟代替鄉親跟您拜託一下謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":67.877,"end":87.25,"text":"剛才延續的邱委員的一個質詢那當然說在所謂的數位或是資安的防護啊包括這防護盾這個沒有最好只有更好那我們也看到就是今天的話許多委員都有提到央廣的部分那我們同樣也看到在政府機關的許多的一個新聞報導"},{"start":88.371,"end":110.476,"text":"那在之前也都有看到也有在機關內部使用這個盜版軟體的部分那同時都可能就是一個資安破口那我想就教一下部長像目前在整個行政體系來講像使用這個盜版軟體的這種情況如何那以及目前速發部的這個輔導跟改善方案是如何"},{"start":111.013,"end":137.911,"text":"ok 當然我們在政府單位裡面是絕對不能使用盜版軟體的那所以我們這邊如果速發部接到任何通報的話我們一定會馬上處理那只是說我們現在有接到多少通報是不是請那個那個資安署署長跟我們報告盜版軟體一定是違法的所以我想不管是政府機關還是民間目前應該都不太會使用盜版的這個軟體這是目前所了解的部分"},{"start":138.531,"end":163.053,"text":"那其實在網路上爬文新聞其實都有相關的例子啦那這有時候的話是不一定是完全說盜版那可能未授權或者是包括甚至共用共享之後那其實同時也產生了許多的資安漏洞那包括在後面的話其實也有一些國防相關系統的也有用到盜版軟體會有這種資安漏洞那後面再來持續救教"},{"start":163.733,"end":191.344,"text":"那至於說剛才有提到的像如何在這樣子的一個平台尤其是政府機關管理的平台能夠在治安的部分能夠更為落實那像現在即將要在10月11月來做這個普發預案那速發部裡面也有相關的平台來協助這個發放措施那我想這個整個發放的這個是否完全無漏洞那在這個治安的掌控上是否能夠做足百分之百"},{"start":192.057,"end":217.212,"text":"OK 在普發現金這件事情上面書發部有兩項的職責第一項當然是說我們要協助財政部順利把資訊系統都做好能順利把錢發出去另外一個職責很重要的職責就是要防止詐騙因為現在詐騙集團知道我們台灣有普發現金的計畫以後已經蠢蠢欲動所以第一個我們要跟所有的民眾要講說"},{"start":218.833,"end":235.945,"text":"到時候普發現金的這個事情只有會有一個官方網站就是財政部的普發一萬現金的官方網站你如果民眾要做任何的諮詢或者是填資料或者申請只有在那個網站上才算其他我們不會有第二個網站"},{"start":236.565,"end":265.667,"text":"那现在这个网站也还没正式上线所以现在如果有民众在网路上看到说它是普发现金的网站那一定是假的所以这个事情我们要请全国的民众要注意那另外我们也做一些预防措施我们先去把一些做一些巡检就是说所有可能那个就是那个网址非常相近跟我们的未来普发现金网站相近的这个网站我们都事先去扫描去监管甚至于就把它封堵住避免这个"},{"start":266.587,"end":283.902,"text":"詐騙集團有任何的機會有任何的機會當然我們知道詐騙集團一定是很聰明到時候一定會出一些怪招來搞我們但是我們持續的警惕想辦法用最短的時間處理掉好那謝謝部長那看起來抒發部部長這邊早已經做好萬全準備"},{"start":284.662,"end":301.085,"text":"那同樣的因為不管是詐騙還有包括這相關的資安平台的一個風險管控那其實重責當然在訴法部身上那也希望說剛才藉這個機會宣導之外那同時也能夠到時候在資安方面以及反詐騙方面能夠務必落實"},{"start":301.986,"end":319.897,"text":"那再回到地方的議題那在南投現在之前還其實包括風災還就有許多通訊斷訊的一個問題那其實那時候速發部也有協助改善那我們在看到這個我們不管是數位發展程度分類那相關的從"},{"start":321.118,"end":347.581,"text":"蒙洞區 起步區 潛力區到成熟區那其實從在112年跟100年到112年的部分其實南投一直都沒有辦法能夠到這個成熟區的部分但是像新竹縣的新豐鄉甚至苗栗的竹南鎮他們都有辦法達到了這個所謂成熟區那甚至在潛力區的部分也只有南投四大鄉鎮南投草屯埔里但是竹山都還在起步區啊"},{"start":348.001,"end":354.542,"text":"那其實在這個如何能夠來提升竹山在數位發展的程度"},{"start":355.728,"end":377.023,"text":"OK 事實上我是小時候在竹山長大然後那個老家在路谷那個南投路谷我非常能感受到這個偏鄉對於那個資訊還有那個網路通訊的需求事實上在對偏鄉的人來講這個網路的通不通比在對城市的人來講更重要因為很多的事情必須靠那個資訊來聯絡"},{"start":378.804,"end":397.691,"text":"但是在偏鄉因為我們設立基地台對於這些電信公司來講他們事實上是賺不到錢的甚至會賠錢所以我們速發部用兩種方式來補助電信業者就是在偏鄉設立基地台第一個我們就直接補助請他們去設立了另外一個我們就是讓"},{"start":399.071,"end":419.462,"text":"這個三大 主要是這個三大電信公司中華 遠傳跟台歌大他們就共同組一個基金然後就由他們的那個賺的錢裡面那個撥出一部分來然後就是由哪一個其中哪一家那個電信公司他比如說到南投的竹山他去設立這個基地台的時候就由這個基金的錢來支付"},{"start":421.964,"end":448.895,"text":"因為部長時間有限那我就直接希望把這個偏鄉5局在固定寬頻建設中那在南投縣基地台或者的一個補助的數量跟經費那再提供給本席辦公室那同樣的在114年度強化偏鄉地區行動寬頻網路數位韌性及金融基礎實施建置計畫預算2.25億的這個部分南投縣在這個部分能夠被納入跟以及再執行的經費也再提供給本席辦公室"},{"start":449.315,"end":469.109,"text":"沒有問題那也希望說因為像目前來講在鹿谷甚至也還在一個蒙洞區的一個階段是那竹山還在起步區那這兩個地方其實也都是偏鄉那也跟部長都非常熟悉那也希望說在下一次的一個數位發展程度的一個一個評估中的話他們能夠有所躍進是"},{"start":470.55,"end":488.886,"text":"OK 謝謝那最後的話就是針對假訊息委員會那時候行政院特別指示那在過去去年的7月 11月 12月其實都已經有提到那目前要成立假訊息委員會那會跟NGO來做一個合作那我想問一下目前的進度如何"},{"start":489.518,"end":508.001,"text":"是 這個部分我們現在是由資安院有一個計畫事實上是希望擴大NGO的能量因為我們認為說訊息的真假不能由政府來判斷因為這是自由民主國家裡面一個政府的分際就是說不應該由政府來判斷那我們希望"},{"start":508.482,"end":523.192,"text":"由NGO來做但是NGO它本身的財力有限它的處理能量有限所以我們希望用別的方式盡量來讓NGO它有包含幫和募資等等希望能多利用NGO的力量來打機甲訊息"},{"start":524.013,"end":546.083,"text":"好那最後的話就是因為行政院在去年的時候是有提到今年假興旗委員會就要上路那但目前來講的進度其實在立法院那時候原本提說需要做一個專案報告包括期程還包括範圍以及NGO以及他主要負責的權責嘛那我在想這個部分還可以的話也提供目前的進度給本席辦公室那後面再持續糾結是好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1132,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時55分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：林部長請。"],["林部長宜敬：游委員你好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。竹山人，竹山之光，還希望部長能更夠責任重大，帶領著數發部在我們國內整個數位提升及AI都能夠持續推動，相信許多政策延續的部分，跟之前黃部長一樣，相信都能夠有很好的一個延續。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["游委員顥：尤其像南投縣竹山鎮算是偏鄉地方，希望能夠讓偏鄉也感受到地方的需求，也協助偏鄉能夠持續提升數位的落差，能夠帶動地方的進步，也是跟部長您做期許跟勉勵，也代替鄉親跟您拜託一下。"],["林部長宜敬：好，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：延續剛才邱委員的質詢，當然在所謂的數位或是資安的防護，包括防護盾，沒有最好，只有更好，我們也看到今天許多委員都有提到央廣的部分，同樣也看到在政府機關許多的新聞報導，之前也都有看到在機關內部使用盜版軟體的部分，同時都可能是資安破口。我想就教一下部長，目前在整個行政體系來講，像使用盜版軟體的這種情況，目前數發部的輔導跟改善方案是如何？"],["林部長宜敬：當然我們在政府單位裡面是絕對不能使用盜版軟體的，所以如果數發部接到任何通報的話，我們一定會馬上處理，只是說現在有接到多少通報，是不是請資安署署長跟委員報告？"],["游委員顥：請回答。"],["蔡署長福隆：跟委員報告，盜版軟體一定是違法的，所以不管是政府機關還是民間，目前應該都不太會使用盜版的軟體，這是目前所了解的部分。"],["游委員顥：好，其實在網路上爬文，新聞都有相關的例子，這有時候不一定完全是盜版，可能未授權或者是包括甚至共用共享之後，其實同時也產生了許多的資安漏洞，包括其實有一些國防相關系統也有用到盜版軟體，會有這種資安漏洞，後面再來持續就教。","至於剛才有提到的，如何在這樣子的平臺尤其是政府機關管理的平臺，能夠在資安的部分更為落實？像現在即將要在10月、11月來做普發一萬，數發部裡面也有相關的平臺來協助發放措施，整個發放是否完全無漏洞，資安的掌控上是否能夠做足百分之百？"],["林部長宜敬：在普發現金這件事情上面，數發部有兩項的職責，第一項，當然是我們要協助財政部順利把資訊系統都做好，能夠順利把錢發出去。另外一個很重要的職責就是要防止詐騙，因為現在詐騙集團知道我們臺灣有普發現金的計畫以後，已經蠢蠢欲動，所以第一個我們要跟所有的民眾說，到時候普發現金的這個事情之後會有一個官方網站，就是財政部普發一萬現金的官方網站，如果民眾要做任何的諮詢、填資料或者申請，只有在那個網站上才算，我們不會有其他第二個網站，現在這個網站也還沒正式上線，所以現在如果有民眾在網路上看到說它是普發現金的網站，那一定是假的，所以這個事情我們要請全國的民眾注意。另外，我們也做一些預防措施，我們先去做一些巡檢，就是所有可能網址非常相近或跟我們未來普發現金相近的網站，我們都事先去掃描、監管，甚至於就把它封堵住，避免詐騙集團有任何機會，當然我們知道詐騙集團一定很聰明，到時候一定會出一些怪招來搞我們，但是我們會持續警惕，想辦法用最短的時間處理掉。"],["游委員顥：謝謝部長，看起來數發部部長這邊早已經做好萬全準備，同樣的，因為不管是詐騙，還有包括相關資安平台的風險管控，其實重責大任在數發部身上，也希望剛才藉這個機會宣導之外，同時到時候在資安方面以及反詐騙方面，也能夠務必落實。","再來回到地方的議題，南投縣之前包括風災，就有許多通訊斷訊的問題，其實那時候數發部也有協助改善。不管是數位發展程度分類，從萌動區、起步區、潛力區到成熟區，在109年到112年，南投一直都沒有辦法能夠到成熟區，但是像新竹縣的新豐鄉，甚至苗栗的竹南鎮，他們都有辦法達到所謂的成熟區，甚至在潛力區的部分，也只有南投四大鄉鎮──南投、草屯、埔里，但是竹山都還在起步區，如何能夠提升竹山在數位發展的程度？"],["林部長宜敬：事實上，我小時候在竹山長大，老家在南投鹿谷，我非常能感受到偏鄉對於資訊還有網路通訊的需求。事實上對偏鄉的人來講，網路通不通比對在城市的人來講更重要，因為很多的事情必須靠資訊來聯絡。但是在偏鄉，因為設立基地臺對於這些電信公司來講，他們事實上是賺不到錢，甚至會賠錢，所以數發部用兩種方式來補助電信業者在偏鄉設立基地臺，第一個，我們就直接補助請他們去設立；另外一個，我們讓主要是三大電信公司，中華、遠傳跟台哥大他們共同組一個基金，由他們賺的錢裡面撥出一部分來，其中哪一家電信公司譬如到南投竹山去設立基地臺的時候，就由這個基金的錢來支付。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，部長，因為時間有限，希望把偏鄉5G與固定寬頻建設中，南投縣基地臺獲得補助的數量及經費再提供給本席辦公室。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["游委員顥：同樣的，在114年度強化偏鄉地區行動寬頻網路數位韌性與近用基礎設施建置計畫預算2.25億的部分，南投縣在這個部分能夠被納入及執行經費也提供給本席辦公室。"],["林部長宜敬：沒有問題。"],["游委員顥：因為像目前來講，鹿谷甚至也還在萌動區的階段，竹山還在起步區，這兩個地方其實也都是偏鄉，部長也都非常熟悉，也希望在下一次數位發展程度的評估中，他們能夠有所躍進。"],["林部長宜敬：是，當然。"],["游委員顥：OK，謝謝。最後針對假訊息委員會，行政院也特別指示了，去年的7月、11月、12月其實都已經有提到目前要成立假訊息委員會，會與NGO合作，我想問一下目前的進度如何？"],["林部長宜敬：這個部分我們現在是資安院有一個計畫，事實上是希望擴大NGO的能量，因為我們認為訊息的真假不能由政府來判斷，因為這是自由民主國家裡面一個政府的分際，就是說不應該由政府來判斷，我們希望由NGO來做，但是NGO本身的財力有限、處理能量有限，所以我們希望用別的方式儘量來讓NGO，包含幫他們募資等等，希望能多利用NGO的力量來打擊假訊息。"],["游委員顥：好，最後，因為行政院在去年的時候有提到今年假訊息委員會就要上路，但是目前來講的進度，其實在立法院那時候原本提說需要做一個專案報告，包括期程、範圍，以及NGO主要負責的權責，我在想這個部分可以的話也提供目前的進度給本席辦公室。"],["林部長宜敬：OK。"],["游委員顥：後面再持續就教。"],["林部長宜敬：是，好。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝來自南投的游顥委員，來自南投的林部長，還有也是南投人的召委，好，感謝。","再請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6224ac39407e03d6032e8c280ed77980f0febda90f1cdde829b03abd11ba7a7725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:46:50 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就您的這個施政報告裡面"},{"start":207.786,"end":220.386,"text":"這個建構台灣主權AI的訓練與料庫是這個要花多少預算這個預算我們請我們的資料室市長現在建構中嘛是現在建構中大概要多久完成呢"},{"start":221.128,"end":246.029,"text":"報告委員這個建構台灣的語料庫大概我們今年跟國科會申請大概400萬那我們現在已經在建置這個系統當中同時我們在建置系統的過程當中我們也開始進行部會的這個輔導讓他們盤點資料那未來這個語料庫完成之後他們就可以順利的上架那麼我們預計大概就是說在11月底的時候希望這個第一版就可以能夠上市400萬建構第一版對沒錯那未來還有第二版"},{"start":246.91,"end":264.278,"text":"然後你這個範圍要擴再擴大而不是只有政府的報告而已對委員的建議沒有說好所以我們第一版是先以政府機關先行然後在明年度我們更有這個有把握的時候我們會邀請民間一起來參與這個台灣主權AI的預料庫繼續持續努力謝謝那另外第二個問題就是你要加強投資國內AI新創跟數位經濟產業"},{"start":272.202,"end":298.957,"text":"所以這個國家基金也同意要匡列100億的額度是100億的額度要怎麼去分配呢你說用專案申請而且你要找一個天使投資機構來搭配嘛是比方說A公司要申請你們這個AI新創實施方案他必須先找一個天使投資機構事實上是創投機構不是天使投資不是天使創投機構創投機構1比1投資嗎1比1最高可以到1比2政府出2"},{"start":300.218,"end":322.933,"text":"誘因的才提高我覺得如果能夠1.5因為AI新創這需要就是資金如果你要找到民間的創投也不是那麼容易你的創投如果有投1億你如果可以投1.5億我覺得這個誘因會提高給你們建議再參考一下好不好是 好 謝謝"},{"start":325.723,"end":330.67,"text":"時間到了這個主席再給我一分半好不好最後一個問題呢"},{"start":333.504,"end":358.552,"text":"這個你們詐騙的源頭的詐騙管制包括網路的廣告平台第三方支付電商網路連線的這些遊戲業四大產業你從源頭的降低詐欺風險我覺得這部分要有更多的作為就像你說的ZERO 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謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1081,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時46分）謝謝主席，是不是請數發部林部長？"],["主席：來，林部長請。"],["邱委員志偉：資安署蔡署長。"],["主席：蔡署長請。"],["林部長宜敬：委員你好。"],["邱委員志偉：林部長跟蔡署長，就你們的施政報告我提出幾個問題請教，經濟部提出矽盾，昨天金管會彭主委提出金融盾，盾的部分就是加強防衛能力、加強競爭力，包括韌性的提高，資安很重要，資安牽涉到國家安全，牽涉到產業的競爭力，也牽涉到個人隱私，所以這個部分未來整個資安的相關措施、做法、政策，應該要建立一個資安盾的概念，您同意嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：是，同意。"],["邱委員志偉：所以更多的精進作為，包括今天你們施政報告裡面，強化資安的韌性是你們施政主要目標，另外落實打詐的作為也有關聯性，所以我想請教，如果你提升一個資安盾的概念，你要有更多的預算，更多積極的作為，而且是有效的作為，你才能把這個盾建立起來。"],["林部長宜敬：是，當然。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這個部分你有沒有什麼未來的想法？還是現在相關的資安作為或者政策就足夠了？"],["林部長宜敬：主要在資安方面的策略，當然一方面我們是希望增加政府處理資安事件的量能，不管是事前、事中、事後的能量。"],["邱委員志偉：你個人覺得目前國家給你的預算夠不夠？給數發部的預算夠不夠？"],["林部長宜敬：當然我永遠會覺得不夠啦！但是我們有多少預算就做多少事，當然希望爭取更多的預算，另外我們也會努力扶植臺灣的資安產業，希望能利用臺灣資安產業的力量來共同守護臺灣政府機關關鍵基礎設施以及民間企業，不管是大企業或中小企業的資安，我們希望是用這種方式來處理。"],["邱委員志偉：盾是一個終極目標，盾是所有任何的攻擊作為、任何資安保護，你都做到滴水不漏，對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這部分你覺得資安盾的建構大概完成了多少比例？以目前來講。"],["林部長宜敬：跟委員報告，因為資安的事情跟打詐一樣，都是好人跟壞人之間不斷的攻防，我們好人這邊一直把各種漏洞都堵住，但是壞人就不斷地找各種漏洞，不管是詐騙的漏洞也好，資安的漏洞也好，所以才會出現一個名詞叫「零日」嘛！Zero-day 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Vulnerability，這種新的漏洞不斷會出現。"],["邱委員志偉：所以零日永遠不會消失。"],["林部長宜敬：對，永遠不會消失，所以我沒辦法說哪一天我可以把這個資安盾做到滴水不漏，因為永遠會發生。"],["邱委員志偉：只能做到更好。"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：但是永遠沒辦法做到最好，因為永遠層出不窮、日新月異有新的手段，所以你只能要求自己做到更好。就你的施政報告裡面，建構臺灣主權AI的訓練語料庫要花多少預算？"],["林部長宜敬：這個預算我們請資料司司長……"],["邱委員志偉：現在建構中嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員志偉：大概要多久完成呢？"],["莊司長明芬：報告委員，建構臺灣的語料庫我們今年跟國科會申請大概400萬，現在已經在建制系統當中，同時在建制系統的過程當中也開始進行部會的輔導，讓他們盤點資料，未來語料庫完成之後，他們就可以順利的上架，我們預計大概在11月底的時候希望第一版就能夠上市。"],["邱委員志偉：400萬建構第一版。"],["莊司長明芬：對，沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：未來還有第二版，然後你這個範圍要再擴大，而不是只有政府的報告而已。"],["莊司長明芬：對，委員的建議沒有錯，所以我們第一版是先以政府機關先行，然後在明年度更有把握的時候，我們會邀請民間一起來參與臺灣主權AI的語料庫。"],["邱委員志偉：好，持續努力，謝謝。另外第二個問題，你要加強投資國內AI新創跟數位經濟產業，所以國發基金也同意要匡列100億的額度，100億的額度要怎麼去分配呢？你說用專案申請而且要找一個天使投資機構來搭配嘛！比方說A公司要申請你們AI新創實施方案，它必須先找一個天使投資機構……"],["林部長宜敬：事實上是創投機構，不是天使投資。"],["邱委員志偉：不是天使，是創投機構，1比1投資嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：1比1，最高可以到1比2，政府出2。"],["邱委員志偉：這樣誘因才會提高啦！我覺得如果能夠1.5，因為AI新創最需要就是資金嘛！如果你要找到民間的創投也不是那麼容易啊！如果因為創投投1億，你如果可以投1.5億，我覺得這個誘因會提高，給你們建議，再參考一下好不好？"],["林部長宜敬：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：時間到了，主席，再給我1分半好不好？最後一個問題，你們詐騙的源頭管制包括網路的廣告平臺、第三方支付電商、網路連線的這些遊戲業、四大產業，你從源頭降低詐欺風險，我覺得這部分要有更多的作為啦！就像你說的Zero-day的概念，要有更多的作為，然後讓詐騙的件數比例跟金額能夠大幅度降低。","最後，請問資策會蕭副執行長在嗎？副執行長，因為今天黃董沒有來，30秒跟您請教，大概林部長你也了解，黃董上任之後怎麼樣讓百工百業導入AI加速升級，百工百業也包括傳統產業對不對？比如說我的選區有金屬扣件，傳統產業你要怎麼百工百業導入AI加速升級？這個對他們未來競爭力非常非常的關鍵，當然資策會扮演重要的角色，副執行長，您覺得目前推動這個政策最大的困難點在哪裡？未來需要克服的事項還有哪些？"],["蕭副執行長博仁：簡單跟委員報告，我們為了呼應AI產業化跟產業AI化，資策會也特別在臺南沙崙成立人工智慧研究院，當然我們也有數發部跟國科會的支持，把AI導入到產業裡頭去，目前執行的是在醫療跟餐飲的部分，我們遇到的困難恐怕是人才不足，包括我們自己在recruit人……"],["邱委員志偉：所以人才不足，其實預算也不夠。"],["蕭副執行長博仁：對。"],["邱委員志偉：因為財劃法的關係，你們這個預算大概腰斬了一半，所以你要是沒有了預算，就沒有人力，沒有人力，就不會去執行。"],["蕭副執行長博仁：還有今年大概是我們資策會46年以來沒有碰過預算缺口那麼大。"],["邱委員志偉：這個請部長再花點時間看怎麼樣籌措更多的經費，讓資策會能夠發揮作用，讓百工百業能夠AI升級，特別是你剛剛所提的醫療跟餐飲，所以這部分是不是能夠導入金屬扣件，螺絲也需要AI升級，但是他們需要更多的經費跟協助。"],["林部長宜敬：是，這個事情我們有在努力，但是因為金屬扣件經濟部那邊也非常的積極，所以我們會跟它協調，就是說雙方都很積極，現在問題不在於說我們不處理，而是雙方都太積極。"],["邱委員志偉：要讓資策會執行這個重大的政策，需要給他們更多人力跟經費啦！這個我請部長支持。"],["林部長宜敬：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝副執行長，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝，不只一分半，給你兩分鐘喔！","接下來我們請黃捷委員，黃捷、黃捷、黃捷委員不在。","請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db625d4ba1edb32550732e8c280ed77980f0febda90f1cdde823e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:36:50 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楊卓雲發言 邀請部長來 請林部長"},{"start":10.98,"end":34.517,"text":"你好 部長首先請問我們在明年編列的56.5億是要推動促進數位創新動能轉型申請的計畫那你聚焦在整個產業AI化人才的培訓以及AI認證體系跟中小企業運用的四大主軸"},{"start":35.197,"end":63.172,"text":"那你預估要培訓了3500個AI人才那你也預估要帶動50億的投資那2028年呢你認為AI的服務產值可以推進達到100億元但是我們發覺到目前為止我們的AI人才還是短促的而且非常嚴重那企業跟數位的落差尤其在我們中小企業那麼還是有很大的落差"},{"start":63.792,"end":79.66,"text":"那如果說在整個培訓跟在這個效益方面沒有辦法落實那就形成預算先行那產業沒有動那本席也不希望看到說預算先行結果是產業沒動"},{"start":81.161,"end":96.815,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下呢本席要首先請問因為現在AI的這個認證相關體系是非常的多元跟非常的重疊那你認為現行有哪些呢現行的部分"},{"start":97.503,"end":125.812,"text":"OK 如同委員所講的現在AI的發展非常快所以AI的認證體系非常的多元也非常的混亂所以我們數位發展部的庶產署之前幾個月我們就訂出並且公布了AI產業人才認定指引我們把這個AI的人才分成三個階層一個是研究型的AI人員另外一個是利用現有AI工具開發AI模型或AI運用的人才"},{"start":126.632,"end":145.138,"text":"另外一種就是百工百業利用AI來增加它生產力的人才讓我們要有更細部在每一個階層裡面我做更細部的指引我這個指引出來以後我們是希望說讓這個AI人才的訓練本身也變成一個產業而且是一個可以賺錢的產業"},{"start":146.138,"end":161.556,"text":"本席請教目前我AI我國AI相關的認證體系是多元而且重疊所以本席要請教你認為目前有哪些你針對本席的提問嗎你要回答是人才現在最重要的其實現在"},{"start":162.918,"end":190.595,"text":"台灣產業界也認為最重要就是我們素產署的AI產業人才認定指引所有的其他的那些台灣其他那個單位譬如說那個基本是了解比如說像具代表性的亞馬遜啊輝達啊微卵啊Google啊經濟部我們自己行政部門經濟部自己也有以及你抒發部現在是委託等於是主管的這個施策會"},{"start":191.716,"end":199.033,"text":"那你這個56.6億元你到底會用哪一套來認證"},{"start":201.755,"end":223.303,"text":"你會怎麼做呢我們就在回答這個問題認證就是會依照我們庶產署定的AI產業人才認證所以是你自己速發不再做一套是不是不是那還好那要怎麼做呢因為有各種認證我們就對齊把它分類所以你是開放性的"},{"start":224.483,"end":244.801,"text":"本席這麼解讀是嗎是不是因為你知道現在數位人才他有困境他從要去認證他要去培訓他從初階到中階到拿到認證的他希望的等級他光光認證的部分大概要花兩萬多塊錢"},{"start":245.962,"end":267.465,"text":"我不一定要看還有更多的那所以在你的這個部分你第一個回答本席是說各項不管是Google什麼的都通通都OK你們都是開放的開放的培訓開放的認證你是如此嗎所以書發部沒有一個像經濟部自己在做一套的是不是"},{"start":268.185,"end":295.064,"text":"對因為經濟部這個部分我們有跟他就是去溝通那就是我剛才講的我們那個我們跟那個人總還有經濟部那我們現在跟人總那邊會有那個AI人那個公務人才發展辦公室那這個我原來是擔任那個副召集人那我們就是希望說用同一套這個認證的指引然後跟那個經濟部不管是經濟部或者是人總或者是我們產業都是用同樣一套的認證指引你看認證框架"},{"start":295.564,"end":318.89,"text":"所以本席提問如此也就是56.5億我們希望要讓願意來培訓的吸引他們會很清楚的那你從培訓到認證就是由我們的政府來協助是不是如此培訓跟認證也可能由民間機關他自己來做因為他就可以很清楚的知道說哪一個等級的他開什麼課然後來上課的人"},{"start":320.71,"end":347.676,"text":"但是還是你數化部會來協助嘛是是 我們會主導是你們主導 然後不一定你政府來做民間單位也可以合作來做嘛 是不是如此是 委員講的完全沒錯那我們也希望一定要因為數位人才是非常的重要陳如你剛才所說的是現在很多元又重疊又而且嚴重的缺失所以一定要好好努力做接下來本席請教中小企業是資安非常重要的一環"},{"start":348.556,"end":363.565,"text":"而且他們也是最薄弱的我們剛才說的所以在167家裡頭占我們所有的企業大概有98%的中小企業那一旦駭客入侵 坦白講中小企業似乎沒有這個能力去圍堵"},{"start":364.345,"end":390.954,"text":"大公司或者是可以你也一直搖頭是不可能的那我們政府要怎麼做因為我們看到之前呢那蘇發部我們的這個資安院到底跟經濟部經濟部說我們交給你了那你說你要依你各單位機關的權責去負責之那就變成山不管地帶那到底是怎麼回事呢那怎麼樣協助我們的中小企業呢"},{"start":392.414,"end":410.288,"text":"這個基本上我們有幾個政策第一個就是我們情資的共享因為這個駭客通常都是利用新發現的漏洞所以我們現在有一個有一個機制叫TWSIRCC這個就是我們如果發現新的那個資安漏洞的話趕快去給讓所有的企業包含中小企業知道這是第一個"},{"start":410.828,"end":428.818,"text":"第一個策略第二個我們是鼓勵台灣的中小企業尤其小型企業他根本養不起那個資安人員更不用講那個或者是那個資訊人員他都養不起那我們希望他盡量利用雲端的產品或者利用現成的資訊軟體博士長你現在這樣講就是中小企業的困境"},{"start":429.258,"end":447.637,"text":"他們有這個能力所以在你治安法的第四條裡頭你很明確的第五款協助民間處理因應及防範重大滋通安全的事件這是你的本質所以本席提出這一點就是針對167家的中小企業是我們國家很重要的資產"},{"start":448.618,"end":471.214,"text":"一定要好好去協助他你把方案給本席最後我給你一個功課10月9號網路詐騙通報的這個部分從9月28號到10月10號共接獲了1萬4千多件那確認詐騙的是5千多件換句話說將近有4成多是確認的那其中META是重災區那麼它高達了86.5%所以本席要請教"},{"start":478.659,"end":504.25,"text":"該通路的這個部分我們看到它報了35萬件有18萬件主要是什麼形態呢假冒購物 名人詐騙跟現實的優惠所以在這樣子的情況之下你們成立了網路詐騙通報查詢的系統裡頭成立一年多來你們對Meta怎麼樣去做溝通 怎麼樣去處罰呢"},{"start":506.461,"end":519.132,"text":"這樣的一個數字我們當然第一個就是在打詐專案通過以後我們要求他做廣告實名制然後在24小時下校打詐司法就已經賦予你這一個上方保健了嘛我們已經罰他1850萬啦"},{"start":521.38,"end":544.037,"text":"那現在呢 他已經繳了一千六百多萬另外兩百五十萬應該很快會罰最重要不是罰他多少錢 而是他行為要改變對 他行為要改變那這個如同我之前有改變這個講起來因為業務報告裡面有報告這部分他們也努力在協助我們打仗那現在就是我們說服他們加入我們好人的一方我說好人對嘛"},{"start":544.938,"end":569.211,"text":"那他現在已經在全球下架了700多萬個涉及詐騙的帳號這個當然不是針對台灣 針對台灣有430萬個詐騙訊息在他上架之前你看 光光台灣就430幾萬這是真的太恐怖了所以本席也希望我們的打仗不是只有美化數字"},{"start":569.691,"end":581.128,"text":"我們也不希望詐騙的數字一直在上升我希望一定要嚴正的去面對這個問題真正降低詐騙民眾這才是我們要的謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1019,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時36分）感謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長宜敬：委員，你好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你好，部長。首先請問，我們在明年編列的56.5億是要推動促進數位創新動能轉型升級計畫，你聚焦在整個產業AI化、人才的培訓、AI認證體系、中小企業運用等四大主軸，你預估要培訓3,500個AI人才，也預估要帶動50億的投資，你認為2028年AI的服務產值可以推進達到100億元，但是我們發覺到目前為止，我們的AI人才還是短絀的。"],["林部長宜敬：是，非常短缺。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且非常嚴重。企業跟數位的落差，尤其在中小企業，還是有很大的落差，如果整個培訓跟效益沒有辦法落實，那就形成預算先行而產業沒有動，本席也不希望看到預算先行而結果是產業沒有動，在這樣的情況之下，本席首先請問，因為現在AI認證相關體系非常多元，非常重疊，那你認為現行有哪些部分？"],["林部長宜敬：OK。如同委員所講的，現在AI的發展非常快，所以AI的認證體系非常多元，也非常混亂，所以我們數位發展部的數產署前幾個月就訂出並且公布了AI產業人才認定指引，我們把AI的人才分成三個階層，一個是研究型的AI人員，另外一個是利用現有工具開發AI模型或AI運用的人才，另外一種就是百工百業利用AI來增加生產力的人才，然後我們也有在每一個階層裡面做更細部的指引，這個指引出來以後，我們希望讓AI人才的訓練本身也變成一個產業，而且是一個可以賺錢的產業。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席請教，目前我國AI相關的認證體系是多元而且重疊的，所以本席要請教，你認為目前有哪些？你針對本席的提問，你要回答的是人才培育嘛。"],["林部長宜敬：其實現在臺灣產業界也認為，最重要的就是我們數產署的AI產業人才認定指引，其他的單位譬如說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：據本行了解，比如說，像具代表性的亞馬遜、輝達、微軟、Google，我們自己的行政部門經濟部自己也有，以及你數發部現在是委託，等於主管的是資策會，那你這56億……"],["林部長宜敬：是工研院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這56.6億元，你到底會用哪一套來認證？你會怎麼做呢？"],["林部長宜敬：是，我就在回答這個問題，我們認證就是會依照數產署訂的AI產業人才認定指引……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以是數發部自己再做一套，是不是？"],["林部長宜敬：不是、不是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是喔？那還好。"],["林部長宜敬：不是啦！不是啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那這樣怎要做呢？"],["林部長宜敬：因為有各種認證，我們就把它分類，就是說把它……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你是開放性的，本席這麼解讀，是嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你知道現在數位人才有困境，他要去認證、他要去培訓，他從初階到中階到拿到他希望等級的認證，光是認證的部分大概要花兩萬多塊錢。"],["林部長宜敬：不一定，要看。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有更多的。"],["林部長宜敬：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以在這個部分，你第一個回答本席是說各項不管是Google什麼通通都OK，你們都是開放的，開放的培訓、開放的認證。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是如此嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：對，當然我們希望把它對齊對我們的認證。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以數發部沒有像經濟部自己再做一套的，是不是？"],["林部長宜敬：對，因為經濟部這個部分我們有跟它溝通，就如同我剛才講的我們跟人總還有經濟部，現在跟人總會有AI公務人才發展辦公室，我原來是擔任副召集人，我們就是希望用同一套認證的指引，不管是經濟部、人總或者是產業都是用同樣一套的認證指引、一套認證的框架。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席提問如此，也就是我們希望56.6億要吸引願意來培訓的，他們會很清楚的。"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：從培訓到認證就是由我們的政府來協助，是不是如此？"],["林部長宜敬：培訓跟認證也可能由民間機關自己來做，因為它是可以很清楚地知道說哪一個等級的要開什麼課，然後來上課的人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊！但是數發部還是會來協助嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：是，我們會主導，不只是協助而已。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會主導嘛！是你們主導，然後不一定政府來做，民間單位也可以合作來做嘛！是不是如此？"],["林部長宜敬：是，委員講得完全沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們也希望一定要，因為數位人才是非常的重要，誠如你剛才所說的，現在很多元又重疊而且嚴重的缺失，所以一定要好好努力做。","接下來本席請教，中小企業是資安非常重要的一環，而且他們也是最薄弱的，我們剛才說的，所以167萬家中小企業占我們所有企業大概有98%，一旦駭客入侵，坦白講中小企業似乎沒有這個能力去圍堵，大公司或許可以，你也一直搖頭，是不可能的，我們政府要怎麼做？因為我們看到之前數發部、資安院到底跟經濟部……經濟部說我們交給你了，你說要依各單位機關的權責去負責之，那就變成三不管地帶，到底是怎麼回事呢？怎麼樣協助我們的中小企業呢？"],["林部長宜敬：是，這個基本上我們有幾個政策，第一個是我們有情資的共享，因為駭客通常都是利用新發現的漏洞，所以我們現在有一個機制叫TWCERT/CC，就是我們如果發現新的資安漏洞的話，趕快讓所有的企業包含中小企業知道，這是第一個策略。第二個，我們是鼓勵臺灣的中小企業，尤其小型企業，它根本養不起資安人員，更不用講資訊人員，它都養不起，我們希望它儘量利用雲端的產品或者是利用現成的資訊軟體。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在這樣講就是中小企業的困境，它沒有這個能力，所以很明確在資安法第四條第五款裡頭，協助民間處理因應及防範重大資通安全的事件，這是你的本質，所以本席提出這一點，針對167萬家的中小企業是我們國家很重要的資產，一定要好好去協助它，你把方案給本席。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後我給你一個功課，10月9號公布網路詐騙通報的這個部分，從9月28號到10月4號共接獲了一萬四千多件，確認詐騙的是五千多件，換句話說將近有四成多是確認的，其中Meta是重災區，高達了86.65%，所以本席要請教，該通報網的這個部分，我們看到它報了35萬件，有18萬件主要是什麼型態呢？假冒購物、名人詐騙跟限時的優惠，所以在這樣子情況之下，你們成立了網路詐騙通報查詢的系統，成立一年多以來，你們對於Meta怎麼樣去做溝通、怎麼樣去處罰呢？這樣的數字。"],["林部長宜敬：當然，第一個，在打詐專案法通過以後，我們要求它做廣告實名制，然後在24小時……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，因為打詐四法就已經賦予你這個尚方寶劍了嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：對，我們已經罰它1,850萬了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在呢？"],["林部長宜敬：它已經繳了一千六百多萬，另外250萬應該很快會……最重要不是罰它多少錢，而是它行為要改變。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這個我要跟你討論。"],["林部長宜敬：對，它行為要改變，如同我之前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼改變呢？"],["林部長宜敬：有，有改變，業務報告裡面有報告這一部分，他們也努力在協助我們打詐，現在就是我們說服他們加入我們好人的一方，好人隊嘛！那它現在已經在全球下架了七百多萬個涉及詐騙的帳號，這個當然不只針對臺灣，針對臺灣有430萬個詐騙訊息，在它上架之前Meta就……"],["主席：這個部分是不是再給我們楊瓊瓔委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看光臺灣就四百三十幾萬，這是真的太恐怖了！所以本席也希望我們的打詐不是只有美化數字……"],["林部長宜敬：當然不是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也不希望詐騙的數字一直再上升，我希望一定要嚴正的去面對這個問題，真正降低詐騙民眾，這才是我們要的，謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝楊瓊瓔委員跟本席還有很多委員都一起關心打詐議題。","再來請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db66e6db0119f557e4e32e8c280ed77980f0febda90f1cdde823e2c817e391698a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:27:23 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謝謝主席 我們請部長好 來 林部長請"},{"start":15.8,"end":36.493,"text":"你好部長好部長辛苦了這個我剛走慢一點讓你喘口氣謝謝我們還是要進入主題今天才跟部長討論我想部長剛上任的時候有接受一個專訪期待說能夠把台灣的軟體業打造出台灣版的微軟Google或Meta但是我想這個真的是"},{"start":37.654,"end":50.317,"text":"理想很豐滿 現實很骨感我們看一下現在我們講到說Google或Microsoft當年或是現在Meta即便是Meta或是Google是近代比較成功的案子他們當初IPO的時候"},{"start":51.38,"end":78.153,"text":"Google要23億美元Meta在2012年IPO募資的時候已經到160億美元那台幣就已經這個幾千億的部分了那我想部長你提了這樣子的願景跟這個目標那計劃在哪裡還有你預計要花多少錢是政府出錢還是民間投資民間募資我們提供這樣的環境讓民間做到這個事情到底這個東西部長提出來的願景那怎麼樣才能做到"},{"start":79.092,"end":97.228,"text":"首先我們必須講說我們政府的角色我認為不是在於說一直發錢一直做補助而是創造一個良好的產業生態那其中最重要的關鍵就是說台灣過去那個軟體產業有很多都是在做project就是為了單一客戶譬如說是"},{"start":97.848,"end":118.349,"text":"那個高鐵他有一個什麼專案然後就發包然後這個軟體就寫一次就給單一家特定的客戶使用這種project的這個專案的公司很多但是做product就像說我們GoogleMicrosoftMeta他做了一個產品事實上是針對不特定客戶賣到全世界幾億人幾十億人都在使用像這種軟體公司才能賺大錢"},{"start":119.37,"end":141.995,"text":"所以我們現在在AI產業方面我們速發部有五大政策分別是算力資料人才行銷以及資金我們就是希望在這個建構一個產業的生態環境以後台灣能有更多做product的公司我們並不是說要打壓那個做project公司我們不是說做project不好而是說我們必須取得一個平衡我們希望台灣有更多的公司做product"},{"start":142.915,"end":169.374,"text":"台灣事實上也有做product的公司事實上在趨勢訓練完美移動APPEAR還有TX1等等這幾家公司都是做product而且都已經賣到世界去了他們事實上規模也都相當大了好 部長其實講到要打造很好的產品打造一個很好的平台我覺得人才啦是 沒錯剛剛包含其他委員提到人才部分但是我們面對現實這個人才部分這個就業金卡 數位金卡的部分你看在整個"},{"start":170.515,"end":195.467,"text":"核卡人士裡面屬於數位領域的到目前為止從一開始到現在2025年8月累積的就業金卡的持卡人他的比例數位人才大概只佔6%就是說我們從國外能夠找的招募的人才大概就是6%那這個目前為止從2023年到現在因為數位部比較晚成立2023年到至今為止我們數位金卡裡面針對這個數位人才的就業金卡裡面招攬大概不到1000人900多人"},{"start":196.627,"end":212.129,"text":"那你每年要設置150人所以我想這個在產業界的需求有一個很大程度的落差另外補充個數據我們部長也參與了一個會議就是說召開我們今年7月的時候有這個經濟發展委員會的顧問會議有提出AI剛剛提到的新四大建設嘛是"},{"start":213.089,"end":240.5,"text":"這個每年我們希望說能夠培育100萬的人才透過學校要培育11到12萬人的人才我想先講個現實面第一個每年要11萬到12萬人我光現在人口出生每年就快沒有12萬人了大學畢業生可能一年十幾萬那我要怎麼樣你如果等於你的11、12萬等於六成、七成現在的大學畢業生他就具備這樣相關能力然後更不用講現在的出生率這麼低"},{"start":241.46,"end":270.14,"text":"所以你每年放11 12萬人然後你目標到100萬人但是今天數位部的人才你的目標每年從海從這個國外邀請來的從這個就位的部分如果你每年目標只有150人這是你們定的目標是那這個距離所謂的新十大建設AS新十大建設不覺得這個目標非常遙遠嗎而且到底是誰在管控是數位部的主導還是國發會主導還是誰在主導因為我們問國發會國發會對這個事情沒有什麼設立什麼目標就它沒有一個數字"},{"start":271.201,"end":290.931,"text":"唯一有數字的當然你們比較認真的沒有數字啦但是這是每年150人可是院又說要一年要培養到10萬11萬人這個落差到底要怎麼補起來你們要去哪裡找這些人然後還有這個部分以數位人才的部分是你們主導還是剛剛提到過會不會主導還是教育部要主導把我們的科系的設立等等這到底要怎麼做到我覺得這個是"},{"start":292.311,"end":313.941,"text":"數字講起來都很偉大但是我們如果真的面對現實看到真的來就業的也好或是我們真的從學校培育出來也好這個落差很大部長要怎麼解決你的這個實際的落差分兩部分來回答委員的問題第一個就是人數的問題我覺得現在最我們說要多少的AI人才但是AI人才本身的定義是非常模糊的"},{"start":314.481,"end":339.178,"text":"之前我就是半開玩笑的講說如果說會使用Chad GPT就是AI人才的話我一年要培養100萬個也不是問題但是所以我們現在速發部第一個就是由速產署這邊訂出了AI產業人才認定指引我們把AI的人才分成三種一種是研究型的一種是產業就開發利用現成工具開發AI應用的人才然後另外一個是只是單純使用AI來"},{"start":340.379,"end":363.798,"text":"工具來提升我的那個效率的人才這是不同的所以我們把它分開定義出來以後我們就能比較清楚的掌握到比較清楚的設定目標那這一點我們會改進之前我們政府並沒有一個很明確的一個分類或者是一個分級這個事實上教育部之前也跟我抱怨過所以我們速發部現在已經由速產署訂出來這個"},{"start":365.319,"end":389.227,"text":"這個指引然後接下來我們以後會在公部門推行同樣的指引這是第一個部分第二個就是攬財的部分我認為說從國外攬財這個還不是我們主要目標第一個我們現在最重要目標是留財因為我本身是台大資訊工程系畢業的台大資訊工程系每年訓練了幾十我那時候是一年五十個現在大概一年一百多個大部分人才都被美國的AI公司"},{"start":389.847,"end":413.975,"text":"把它吸走了我先第一個我必須把這些人才留住事實上我前一陣子跟法國商會跟法國駐台大使在聊天他們也講說法國也面臨同樣問題法國最頂尖的AI人才也通通被美國吸走了所以我們現在就是想辦法在台灣建立一個良好的生態系讓台灣自己本身的頂尖的AI人才願意留在台灣為台灣的軟體公司工作"},{"start":414.195,"end":441.643,"text":"因為我想這個部長剛剛提到光是一個光台大自己每年畢業的人數就100多人那你要一年要培育到你們的目標是就是願的目標是11到12萬這個目標我覺得還是距離非常遙遠啦所以到底我想這不是只有數位部的責任啦可能教育部或其他部會都要訂出相關的這個的範圍不是只有你在努力不然你要一年12萬人就我講的12萬人幾乎快要等於現在大學畢業生的人數了我不可能全部的"},{"start":442.763,"end":460.644,"text":"全台灣的大學生全部都念相關的產業所以這個目標第一個如果你正在訂12萬那我覺得計畫內容要明確一點不要說只是喊數字那如果我們做不到我就覺得不要喊這個數字要務實一點變成這個現實這是我覺得是重要為什麼要講這個看那個排名"},{"start":461.525,"end":477.612,"text":"我想部長你剛上任這也不能怪你但是我們看這個世界數位競爭力的調查評比的排名到2024年我們整體來講是下滑的包含說這個高階人才我們從44名降到49名我們數位科技人才的充足狀況從32名滑落10名掉到第42名"},{"start":478.892,"end":505.261,"text":"那還有其他當然不然說整個GDP的支出啦還有什麼研究論文比例等等就我們在很多的部分還有在移民法規針對外籍的優秀的員工我們的法規從30名也滑落到39名所以說在整個如果我們今天做一個想要做一個科技島不論只有台積電不論只有硬體嘛你現在做一個軟體的重點的這個培育的大國那如果我們的人才我們的移民相關的政策沒有跟上的話"},{"start":506.261,"end":531.293,"text":"當然你就做不到 我講了嘛你一年大學能夠培養多少本土大學生你一定是從國外攬財一定有占很大一部分因為剛剛部長你提到說不會以國外為但是我的建議啦其實這個人才庫是世界的競爭啦不是只有台灣之際而已所以我們要想辦法就是說你今天大家為什麼願意去美國或去其他國家因為他可能相對在專業人才上移民政策或是簽證比較好拿"},{"start":531.773,"end":552.066,"text":"那我們是不是也有相關的政策出來這個可能不是只有你的問題這是你要拜託你們去跟內政部也好跟教育部也好跟各部會也好我們怎麼樣提升這個排名的數字因為這個排名是很客觀的數據哪些地方滑落了那我覺得這就是我們數位部要去做的事情好不好 部長是 好 謝謝好 那差不多 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1002,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時27分）好，謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：好，來，林部長請。"],["林部長宜敬：黃委員，你好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。部長辛苦了，我剛剛走慢一點，讓你喘口氣。"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝、謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：我們還是要進入主題。今天來跟部長討論，部長剛上任的時候有接受一個專訪，說期待能夠把臺灣的軟體業打造出臺灣版的微軟、Google或Meta，但是我想，這個真的是理想很豐滿，現實很骨感。我們看一下，現在我們講到Google、Microsoft或是Meta，即便Meta或Google是近代比較成功的案子，他們當初IPO的時候，Google也募到23億美元，Meta在2012年IPO募資的時候已經募到160億美元，臺幣大概值幾千億，部長，你提了這樣子的願景跟目標，那計畫在哪裡？還有你預計要花多少錢？是政府出錢還是民間投資、民間募資？我們提供這樣的環境，讓民間做到這些事情，到底部長提出來的願景，要怎麼樣才能做到？"],["林部長宜敬：OK。首先我們必須講說，我們政府的角色，我認為不是在於一直發錢、一直補助，而是創造一個良好的產業生態，其中最重要的關鍵就是，臺灣過去的軟體產業有很多都是在做project，就是為了單一客戶做project，譬如說，高鐵有一個專案，然後就發包，這家軟體業者就寫一個軟體給單一一家特定的客戶使用，這種做project專案的公司很多，但是做product的不多，就像Google、Microsoft、Meta，他們做了一個產品，事實上是針對不特定客戶，賣到全世界，幾十億人都在使用，像這種軟體公司才能賺大錢，所以現在在AI產業方面，我們數發部有五大政策，分別是算力、資料、人才、行銷以及資金等等，我們就是希望建構一個產業的生態環境以後，臺灣能有更多做product的公司，我們並不是說要打壓做project的公司，我們不是說做project不好，而是說我們必須取得一個平衡，我們希望臺灣有更多的公司做product，而臺灣事實上也有做product的公司，像趨勢、訊連、玩美移動、Peer、TX1等等，這幾家公司都是做product，而且都已經賣到世界去了，他們事實上規模也都相當大了。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，其實講到要打造很好的產品，打造一個很好的平台，我覺得關鍵是人才，剛剛其他委員提到人才的部分，我們面對現實，在人才部分，關於就業金卡、數位金卡，你看，在核卡人士裡面屬於數位領域的，到目前為止，從一開始到現在，到2025年8月累積的就業金卡持卡人，數位人才的比例大概只占6%。也就是說，我們從國外招募的人才大概只有6%，到目前為止，因為數位部比較晚成立，從2023年到現在為止，從針對數位人才發的就業金卡來看，招攬的人才不到1,000人，只有九百多人，你每年度的目標要150人，這個跟產業界的需求有很大程度的落差。","另外，補充一個數據，部長也參與過一個會議，今年7月的時候在經濟發展委員會的顧問會議，會中有提到AI，剛剛有提到新十大建設，會中提到希望每年能夠培育100萬名人才，透過學校，要培育11到12萬名人才。我先講一個現實面，第一個，每年要11萬到12萬人，我們光是現在每年出生的人口都快要沒有12萬人了，大學畢業生可能一年十幾萬，如果每年要11萬到12萬，等於占六成、七成，現在的大學畢業生就要具備這樣的相關能力，更不用講現在的出生率這麼低，所以你要每年培育11萬到12萬人，然後總目標是到100萬人。但是今天數位部的人才，每年從國外邀請來就業的部分，如果你們訂的目標是每年只有150人，這個目標距離AI新十大建設的目標非常遙遠，而且到底是誰在管控？是數位部主導，還是國發會主導，還是誰在主導？我們問國發會，國發會對這件事情沒有設定什麼目標，沒有訂出一個數字，唯一有訂出數字的就是你們，當然你們比較認真，你們有訂出數字，但是數字是每年150人，可是行政院又說一年要培養到11萬人，這個落差到底要怎麼補起來？你們要去哪裡找這些人？還有數位人才的部分，是你們主導還是剛剛提到的國發會主導？還是教育部要主導？包含科系的設立等等，到底要怎麼做到？數字講起來都很偉大，但是我們如果真的面對現實，看到真的來就業的也好，或者是真的從學校培育出來的也好，落差很大，部長要怎麼做？怎麼解決這個實際的落差？"],["林部長宜敬：OK。分兩部分來回答委員的問題，第一個就是人數的問題，現在我們說要有多少的AI人才，但是AI人才本身的定義是非常模糊的，之前我半開玩笑地講說，如果會使用ChatGDP就是AI人才的話，我一年要培養100萬個也不是問題，現在數發部第一個就是由數產署訂出了AI產業人才認定指引，我們把AI的人才分成三種，一種是研究型的，一種是利用現成工具開發AI應用的人才，另外一個是只單純使用AI工具來提升效率的人才，這是不同的，所以我們把他們分開定義出來以後，我們就能比較清楚地掌握到，比較清楚地設定目標，這一點我們會改進。之前我們政府並沒有一個很明確的分類或分級，教育部之前也跟我抱怨過，所以我們數發部現在已經由數產署訂出指引，接下來我們也會在公部門推行同樣的指引，這是第一個部分。","第二個就是攬才的部分，我認為從國外攬才還不是我們主要的目標，我們現在最重要的目標是留才，因為我本身是臺大資訊工程系畢業的，臺大資訊工程系每年訓練了幾十個人才，我那時候是一年50個，現在大概一年一百多個，大部分人才都被美國的AI公司吸走了，第一個，我必須先把這些人才留住。事實上，我前一陣子跟法國商會、法國駐臺大使在聊天，他們也說法國也面臨同樣的問題，法國最頂尖的AI人才也統統都被美國吸走了，所以我們現在想辦法在臺灣建立一個良好的生態系，讓臺灣自己本身的頂尖AI人才願意留在臺灣，為臺灣的軟體公司工作。"],["黃委員健豪：部長剛剛提到，光是一個臺大每年畢業的人數就有一百多人，那麼一年培育的人才要達到你們的目標11萬到12萬，我覺得距離非常遙遠。我想這不是只有數位部的責任，教育部或其他部會都要訂出相關的範圍，不是只有你在努力，不然你要一年培育12萬人，我講過，12萬人幾乎等於現在每年大學畢業生的人數，不可能全臺灣的大學生都唸相關的產業，所以如果你真的要把目標訂為12萬，那我覺得計畫內容要明確一點，不要只是喊數字，如果做不到，就不要喊這個數字，要務實一點，面對這個現實，我覺得這很重要。為什麼要講這個？部長你剛剛上任，也不能怪你，但是我們看世界數位競爭力調查評比的排名，到2024年，我們整體來講是下滑的，包含高階人才，我們從第44名降到第49名，數位科技人才充足的狀況，我們從第32名滑落10名，掉到第42名；還有其他的，包含GDP的支出，還有研究論文比例等等，我們在很多部分，包含針對外籍優秀員工的相關移民法規，我們在這部分也從第30名滑落到第39名，所以如果我們今天想要做一個科技島，不能只有台積電，不能只有硬體，今天要建設一個軟體的、重點的人才培育大國，如果我們的人才、我們的移民相關政策法規沒有跟上的話，當然就做不到。就像我講的，一年大學能夠培養多少本土大學生？一定是從國外攬才，一定占很大一部分，剛剛部長有說不會以國外人才為主，但是我建議，人才庫是全世界在競爭，不是只有臺灣自己而已，所以我們要想辦法，今天大家為什麼願意去美國或其他國家？因為這些國家可能相對在專業人才的相關移民政策或是簽證比較好拿，我們是不是也有相關的政策出來？這個可能不是只有你的問題，你要去跟內政部也好，跟教育部也好，跟各部會也好，設法去提升排名，因為這個排名是很客觀的數據，哪些地方滑落了，我覺得這些地方就是數位部要去做的事情，好不好？部長。"],["林部長宜敬：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164212","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db67514d3736cb8c01932e8c280ed77980f0febda90f1cdde82d2e2cafc87676f955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"12:20:43 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,{"start":278.451,"end":293.393,"text":"到底發生了什麼狀況有像法務部衛福部教育部有這麼多人會取得這個相關的這個這個證照我們說我們說法部這邊有提供相關的協助的一些計畫還是怎麼樣的一個一個協助的相關的措施嗎"},{"start":294.492,"end":320.712,"text":"是 謝謝委員 剛剛說明一下其實目前就委員所講的的確在政府機關的這個資安專制人員大概有35位左右沒有取得這個資安的專業證照那我們去查像法務部是比較多的一個人數15位 那因為我們也去了解法務部的情況那他最主要是因為法務部他的首屬這個監守啦還有一些相關的這些機構很多 那人才不太夠所以這部分我們也在請法務部這邊一起來協助他們"},{"start":321.292,"end":347.89,"text":"那訓練部分我們有一個轉職訓練裡面我們要補助補助來參加這個相關的資安的這個職能訓練的部分我想我們都有在進行這部分的相關的協助以上對我覺得這部分真的是要做加強我看到這個數據我也剛開始還覺得很不可思議像法務部這麼重要的一個不會居然這個會取得證到的人數居然是這麼的這麼的多而且呢像整個公部門像公務人員他跟相關科系的這個所謂的"},{"start":349.191,"end":367.848,"text":"資安專職人員居然只有44%我想這真的是要從內部先加強我是這麼覺得是雙管齊下這個部分的話是請那個書發部真的是要協助各部會來處理這個相關徵兆的問題還有專業人才的這個培育OK謝謝委員的督促OK好以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":979,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（12時20分）謝謝主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長宜敬：委員你好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，我今天剛剛有看了一下你的報告，你有提到數發部很積極在推動培育AI產業人才，然後也協助我國的資安產業研發相關產品跟計畫。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["羅委員美玲：可是我們知道，資訊人才其實不等於資安人才。"],["林部長宜敬：是，當然。"],["羅委員美玲：據我們所知，臺灣雖然每一年大約有1.7萬名資訊相關科系的畢業生，可是真正投入到資安產業的其實只有2,000人左右。現在不單單是公部門很具體地需要資安人才，民間企業對資安人才的需求其實也是不斷成長，尤其我們看到醫療產業有60%的需求，所以我想請問部長，數發部做為負責資通安全管理的主責單位，然後我們也依據資通安全管理法，要求中央跟地方各機關必須要配置資安專職人員，我想請問部長，民間企業也需要資安人員，我們公部門也需要，我們要如何跟民間來搶人才？我們有什麼誘因？想請問部長。"],["林部長宜敬：OK。這的確是一個很有挑戰性的問題，我們知道，民間資安產業的薪資通常都是高過於政府機構，那在政府機構的資安人才，事實上，在政府機構，常常可以接觸到一些民間機構看不到的資安問題，所以在政府機構待過幾年的資安人才，民間產業又非常喜歡，因為他們覺得這些人才是非常具有經驗的。"],["羅委員美玲：等於是我們在代訓？"],["林部長宜敬：是，也可以這麼講。"],["羅委員美玲：所以要怎麼留住人才？"],["林部長宜敬：在人才方面，我們朝三個方向來做，第一個，我們還是想辦法提高政府的資安專業人才的薪資，這是第一部分。第二部分，我們是要做攬才，我們還是希望找到好的人才，所以2023年高考，我們增加了資安類科的項目。然後再來是育才，就是我們希望現有的公務人員能夠去接受一些資安的訓練，然後轉職成為資安的人員，因為這樣子他的薪水也會提高，當然我們不希望他薪水提高以後太快離開政府部門，但是從另外一方面來講，我們也認為，臺灣有一個健康的資安產業，如果這些人才流到民間的產業的話，對臺灣整體來講，也不見得是一個壞現象，所以我們另外一個很重要的政策，就是希望利用民間資安產業的力量，來守護臺灣政府，還有關鍵基礎設施，還有民間產業的資安。資安的維護如果單單靠政府的話，我們政府現在的編制應該是將近1,500人，但是我們的缺額有200人左右，現在實際上大概只有1,300人，這個人數不管是1,500人或1,300人都是絕對不夠的，所以我們是希望能夠利用民間的資安產業的力量，來共同守護臺灣的資安。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。好，謝謝部長。再來，我們看一下，剛剛部長有提到政府部門的資安人才，我們看一下民國113年資安專職人力進用的類型，我們可以看得到在公部門裡面，公務人員跟資訊處理職系有關係的大概只占了44%，因為是資安專職人力，所以這個比例其實是不高的。部長剛剛有提到，未來可能會跟民間來合作，然後我們再來看看審計部113年總決算審核報告，你看資安專職人員未取得資安專業證照或職能訓練證照的情況，這麼重要的法務部，未取得資安專業證照的有15人，未取得職能訓練證照的有7人，這兩個證照都未取得的有13人，加起來有35人。再來就是衛福部、教育部。剛剛部長有提到，要從內部先去做training，去做訓練，看這種狀況的話，要如何去協助各個部會呢？到底發生了什麼狀況？法務部、衛福部、教育部有這麼多人未取得相關的證照，數發部有提供相關的協助計畫或相關的措施嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員。剛剛說明一下，目前的確就如同委員所講的，在政府機關的資安專屬人員大概有35位左右未取得資安的專業證照，那我們去查，法務部的人數比較多，有15位，我們也去瞭解法務部的情況，最主要是因為法務部所屬的監所和一些相關的機構很多，人才也不太夠，所以這部分我們也跟法務部一起來協助他們。訓練的部分，在轉職訓練裡面，我們也有補助人才參加資安相關的職能訓練，我們都有進行這部分的相關協助。以上。"],["羅委員美玲：對。我覺得這部分真的是要加強，我看到這個數據，剛開始我也覺得很不可思議，像法務部這麼重要的一個部會，未取得證照的人數居然這麼多，而且現在整個公部門的公務人員相關科系的資安專職人員居然只有40%，我想這真的是要從內部先加強，我是這麼覺得，要雙管齊下。好，這個部分請數發部真的要協助各部會來處理相關證照的問題和專業人才培育的問題。"],["林部長宜敬：是，我們會努力，謝謝委員的督促。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。好，以上，謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。","部長有沒有需要洗個手？"],["林部長宜敬：我喘一下氣。"],["主席：不用？好。我看部長早上備詢從九點一直到現在，如果有需要上洗手間，舉個手，再讓我們知道。","好。接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6a39a6750953304861d8817d393176c430febda90f1cdde823c1fa2322f5407415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:57:45 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會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們那個農業部陳部長請陳部長 謝謝部長好 老農津貼加上農退儲金保障獎對不對"},{"start":31.445,"end":44.316,"text":"好來我們看一下現在老農津貼跟農退儲金農民退休有雙層保障113年我們就農業人口差不多快50萬對不對48.9萬現在我最新的統計是48.7萬沒關係我覺得大概是那個數字這65歲以上的人可以領老農津貼部分有參加農民退休儲金還可以多領一點農民退休儲金對不對"},{"start":54.534,"end":71.332,"text":"現在老農今天大概有快45萬人在勤領沒有錯吧好那我們等一下看來老農今天跟農民退休儲金有什麼差別第一老農今天一年我們大概預算要編450億對不對差不多我們農民退休儲金要相對提撥要編31億對不對"},{"start":74.001,"end":99.308,"text":"那目前的退休處境的規模大概245億在我們說的退休當中 準備當中是同性戀的啦因為剛開辦嘛 是不是跟勞退比起來 我們很小嘛 公退很小嘛那覆蓋率的話呢 目前有22萬3千人符合提領資格覆蓋率差不多有一半但是到另外一半的人他們有參加農退處境那以勤領人數呢 目前農退老農今天有將近四十萬人在領"},{"start":100.208,"end":118.289,"text":"那目前已經65歲以上在領農民退休儲金的差不多一萬四 其他人還在交啦可是領多少呢 農民老農今天是八千一嘛那農民退休儲金的看你存多少 你存的少的就領八百五嘛存的多就領一萬一千七嘛 對不對"},{"start":119.52,"end":135.787,"text":"所以每年我們大概領到農農津貼的人有領到437億那又領到退休儲金的人有1億多啦好 這個規模幫你整理一下好 往下看來 什麼樣的人會去參加農退儲金?老人還是年輕人?年輕人比較有優勢啊"},{"start":136.372,"end":164.619,"text":"對 但是大多數是老人家去參加啦因為我們開辦的晚嘛開辦的晚對 所以要退休的人他有急迫感他趕快存 對不對啊 比較年輕的人還在那邊慢慢地看 是不是這樣對好 那我們要鼓勵年輕人及早開始就去參加自體對不對對要鼓勵對不對對你越年輕越多你吃老的時期你年紀越多 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勞動部現在要提了勞動部現在安生要提什麼只要說勞工自體願意自體增加超過1%政府就送1%你聽到這個會怕不怕"},{"start":310.947,"end":327.115,"text":"會不會把他打破了我還沒有問那個勞動部的想法不是啦 如果他勞動部這樣提你會不會拍 給他鼓掌部長如果這樣講 洪部長這樣講你會不會把他打破了說有夠勇敢的 我在聽聽他在聽你會不會"},{"start":329.605,"end":344.151,"text":"我支持他們的提案你會支持他的提案好最後呢所以部長你會支持如果勞動部提說政府也加送一趴勞退自體送一趴你在旁邊聽了會說部長讚 黃部長我給你支持"},{"start":345.532,"end":373.41,"text":"最後 來因為我們以農民退休處境為借鏡我們為了鼓勵勞工退休自體如果說政府提出來 勞務提出來自體的話 政府送一趴提高自體的意願你給他暫省 醫療你要再增加他也會支持你啦 是不是這樣拜託 我們現在經濟要往回了我們討論的是農業的部分因為勞工的部分我不夠熟 但是我會支持我是在替你騙人錢啦你現在給他暫省 醫療你要增加人家才會替你說話啦 沒有沒有"},{"start":375.331,"end":379.093,"text":"我會支持勞動 勞動部提的這些 好 謝謝好 謝謝 感謝 謝謝我們宗家兵委員質詢 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謝謝主席本席有請鄭部長有請鄭部長"},{"start":23.783,"end":51.622,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們今天只有四分鐘本席想請教您您知不知道現在很多家長他可能他自己本身甚至也是公立學校的老師但他會讓他的孩子讀私校所以就變成台灣現在的情況是私立國中的學生整個相對的穩定而且逆勢成長"},{"start":52.703,"end":72.483,"text":"十年來我們私校生佔比23%但是這個很多的家長現在不願意把孩子送去公校公立的 去送去私立的本席特別指國小國中 特別國中那您知道這個情況嗎我跟委員報告"},{"start":77.41,"end":98.746,"text":"約烈知道 約烈知道家長們正在用行動公投對教育部這十年來的教育政策成果表達不信任您才可能有點知道我覺得台灣的教育不能用這樣單一家長的選擇因為民主法治的社會本來就有多樣性"},{"start":99.726,"end":122.305,"text":"所以我认为那为什么私校越来越多私校的老师他对台湾整个人才的培育他的贡献绝对来来来家长不是对学校老师或校长不满我要特别讲家长不是对学校老师或校长不满而且大家对于第一线教育人员的尽忠职守"},{"start":123.025,"end":137.841,"text":"全力維護學生的安全跟品質我們都非常的肯定本席要問你的是為什麼私校現在家長是什麼原因讓他們想往私校去不敢再公立學校我要問的是您知道"},{"start":138.001,"end":156.381,"text":"原因是什么我想不应该讲说不敢到公益学校因为在许多因为我们现在的这个double income的这一个家庭里边年轻家庭他确实他希望学校能够给他的小孩因为少子化有一个部长我时间有限私校从你"},{"start":157.262,"end":169.53,"text":"那个时候我那个时候就你中小学的时候我中小学的时候就有了然后income比较好的他给他去私校这种情况本来就一直是这样我指的是这10年私校成长了23%"},{"start":172.357,"end":193.863,"text":"那它這是有一個趨勢23%不少耶 1 4分之1耶我覺得某一個角度來看就是說我們過去私立學校我現在要問的是您知不知道是什麼原因我認為私立學校因為隨著潮汙他們在整個教學品質跟學生輔導各方面學生輔導很好他也在進步我們要講的是這不是不只是為了升學的競爭"},{"start":195.825,"end":201.737,"text":"這個完全是對於校園安全很多家長對於現在公立學校的校園安全"},{"start":202.571,"end":231.818,"text":"同材环境还有管教秩序的不安所以才会让家长有这样的一种有一点集体公投对我们的教育他表达了他的选择所以那这个部分跟我们在校园的比如说他们选择相对上安全的环境管理严谨的这种学习环境给他的孩子"},{"start":232.441,"end":261.34,"text":"所以今天因為時間關係我們要從兩個一個是校園的教師的管轄權管教權還有就是校園安全這兩塊那因為時間關係我想校園安全我們今天來談我們的校園安全我想部長一定知道不管是校園暴力外人闖入學生自傷或帶凶器入校這個情況近年來的成長比例您手上應該要有數據"},{"start":262.741,"end":277.611,"text":"這成長比例很可怕暴力事件偏差行為成長了88%意外事件成長了50%安全維護事件也成長了40幾%所以這一個部分部長有什麼對策"},{"start":280.064,"end":305.229,"text":"謝謝委員關心學校的一個安全確實我們這一個譬如說這一個social emotion learning本來我們社會情緒裡邊我們很清楚這個model就是希望學生能夠了解他自己的情緒也能夠了解別人的情緒而且有一些簡單的social skill能夠有助於他在那你現在有什麼對策嘛你現在校園安全網就破洞了"},{"start":305.529,"end":332.983,"text":"没有 这个部分也就是说我要讲的说从基础的一些课程结合班级经营包括课程在学习这个是一个另外一个就是说我们也看到随着社会的一个快速发展学校当然也面临一些经营上的治安上的一些挑战你怎么协助学校我们也希望从社区社区包括到警政系统共同来协助学校能够建构一个更好的一个"},{"start":333.763,"end":353.578,"text":"學校的一個現在多數的國中還有小型的學校沒有專職的校安人員您應該知道自從高中就是校官退場以後教育部推動學務創新人力沒關係這個我就不講但是現在的多數的國中還有比較小型的學校"},{"start":354.218,"end":378.735,"text":"他們都沒有校職安全人員還有就是現在竟然一直強調AI所以我們校園安全除了人力你人力已經不足了你有沒有想辦法用科技的防衛我上任以後確實我們也看到了一些怎麼樣去協助學校的安全的一個維護所以我們在國中那個部分我們先就給了一個500"},{"start":380.256,"end":403.171,"text":"500多位的校恩就一年嘛對不對你有長期的預算嗎有長期的規劃嗎本來那個我們也認為那是一個學校穩定的一個重點怎麼樣去減少老師在這個校恩世界的處理包含怎麼樣去支持老師許多行政上額外的一些負擔我們在這個部分是我們優先列為政策上會的支持"},{"start":403.311,"end":421.327,"text":"所以除了人力我們是不是可以也運用科技全面升級數位監控系統導入AI智慧分析和警報你加強一些高風險區域的監控不管是操場遊戲區還有運動區這一些我們可不可以朝這個方向來改進"},{"start":422.308,"end":450.845,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上學校在幾多的重點的這些安全的防護它本來都有一定的一些設備 包含監視器但是委員所提的這是一個好的一個建議怎麼樣去結合科技能夠讓我們 智慧巡邏機器人可以考慮智慧巡邏機器人 好不好在走廊巡查各方面提醒學生的安全也可以補足人力的不足"},{"start":452.189,"end":457.111,"text":"謝謝委員部長 朝這個方向來做好嗎我們來研議好 謝謝謝謝徐欣穎委員 請部長回座 謝謝現在請陳培宇委員進行質詢 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12:52:37","影片長度":"00:08:14","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T12:44:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T12:52:37+08:00","duration":494,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.19971875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.785343750000001,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.54034375,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.83846875,"end":17.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.90159375,"end":76.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.85034375000001,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.70659375000001,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.43909375000001,"end":88.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.47284375000001,"end":89.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.41784375,"end":89.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.39221875000001,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.02909375,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.21346875,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.44909375,"end":106.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.78221875000001,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.23346875,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.14471875000001,"end":110.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.96284375,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.97096875000001,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.39659375000001,"end":118.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.67909375,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.21034375,"end":128.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.98971875,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.41409375,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.03409375,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.30784375000002,"end":186.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.78659375,"end":231.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.24346875,"end":236.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.68596875000003,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.33346875,"end":258.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.82159375000003,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.20909375,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.03284375000004,"end":285.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.97346875,"end":293.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.06096875000003,"end":294.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.07784375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.14534375,"end":294.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.21284375000005,"end":298.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.41534375000003,"end":294.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.24596875000003,"end":301.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.43159375000005,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.99659375000005,"end":303.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.68409375000005,"end":304.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.15221875000003,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.96346875,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.48596875000004,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.97096875,"end":331.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.98784375,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.21971875,"end":331.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.52346875,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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洪部長有請好 洪部長"},{"start":16.877,"end":36.733,"text":"副總管 不好意思耽誤大家休息時間我們今天在職業安全衛生法修法裡面本系列有提相關的案子是在第49條提了一個修正案那這個修正案的用意是這樣的我們借用質詢的時間預先做一下討論在逐條的時候我們也希望勞動部可以用一個更開放的心態來處理"},{"start":37.934,"end":64.571,"text":"這目前我們規定要公佈僱主姓名跟名稱啦就是說違反勞動相關法令你要公視於眾嘛你這樣才會有嚇阻力對不對有勞動基準法80條之一勞退條例53條之一勞工職災保險及保護法100條性別工作平等法38條等等等等其實有非常多條那現在實際上的狀況是勞動部你有一個統一的平台嘛就是各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態你其實有一個統一的平台"},{"start":65.291,"end":85.669,"text":"這個平台上面其實蠻完整的 寫得非常清楚包含各縣、市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等的選項 而且很好查我希望要更完整你希望要更完整 非常好那我們今天就來針對這個事情來做一下討論齁這個平台是完整的操作性也佳但部長你知不知道各地方政府在執行的時候狀況是什麼呃..."},{"start":91.431,"end":118.892,"text":"他們其實有時候登上來的時間會延遲對 來 我就一張一張給你看好 這是你勞動部的嘛好 其實查得非常清楚 而且部長講要更清楚這本席給予肯定但各地方政府的就沒有像中央的這麼清楚好 我們今天把話講 唉唷 不聽話這個相關檔案 為什麼不能用好 我們就一張一張看 好 這是苗栗的苗栗的 台北的 然後再往下台南的 再看"},{"start":120.083,"end":148.052,"text":"就這幾個地方政府的樣態我在這邊跟部長說明一下地方大概就是我把一整包相關的資料弄成一個Excel檔或一個PDF上傳到網路上就了事了對不對這個不管是在操作易達性資訊完整性即時性剛剛部長提到的即時性以及各網站的點閱率來講一定是中央的效果好過各地的效果各地變成什麼我雖然我有進公佈的義務但恐怕就途距形式這我想部長也清楚以前帶過NGO對不對"},{"start":149.472,"end":166.565,"text":"以前透明足跡的網站就很棒啊很多立法委員曾經都拿來當問證參考 為什麼它是一個單一的平台然後它有一定的知名度大家會去查詢 會去使用那個資料它自然而然公佈相關的裁罰它才會對於違法的企業產生嚇阻跟威嚇的效果部長同意我這樣說嗎"},{"start":167.566,"end":186.052,"text":"當然這是我們當初設計透明主機的原意對嘛 所以部長你也有這樣子的一個經驗所以你會希望這樣子的平台優化那我希望平台的優化可以乾脆就一步到位這一點我相信部長應該是有能力也有經驗可以把它做得更好但問題是我們現在需要的是什麼我們希望的是他乾脆"},{"start":187.252,"end":211.762,"text":"簡正辨明的部分也可以一併來做處理啦也就是說現在地方政府我可能資料要報給中央對不對有一手然後我又要丟在自己的網站上丟自己網站上其實我覺得是額外的業務負擔不如啦是不是藉由這次修法的這個這樣的一個機會乾脆來做整合也就是說地方有資料你把格式等等照你心中比較完整的模式設計好以後所有地方政府我一樣有裁罰等等的就彙整上傳就好了嘛"},{"start":212.262,"end":231.496,"text":"這樣是不是全國就是一個平台 然後把所有資料非常詳細完成而且公布在您所謂的 功能較好 內容較多的網站上然後所有要監督勞動相關的 或者是求職者要去看的時候我給予他更好的義達性 這樣子是不是嚇阻的效果跟網站的知名度 宣傳的管道 是不是都會比較方便跟委員說明 第一個"},{"start":236.721,"end":258.317,"text":"因為這一次的修法比較是針對治安法因為近期的幾個勞動法規的修法其實都有在條文裡面放入一個資訊公開必須公開這樣的條文那這一次我們在治安法裡面把它放進來讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚那第二個是我們會努力的把至少勞動部我們自己的相關的裁罰紀錄的平台跟這個"},{"start":260.699,"end":274.495,"text":"這個展示就是說揭露的平台我們希望能夠做得更好那我們近期其實也在跟地方政府討論比方說我們確實現在也在我們的調評師也在跟地方政府討論其實有些勞動條他們有時候上傳的速度比較慢"},{"start":275.376,"end":293.351,"text":"會delay有時候大家查的時候就是可能一兩個月就查不到或者是什麼狀況那我們現在也希望能夠跟他說該一定的時間就要能夠上傳避免那個即時性不告的報告我現在意思就是說我們藉由這次修法因為我的條文有講嘛就是各地方政府報到中央嘛然後我統一在你中央的平台上"},{"start":294.111,"end":310.902,"text":"中央我們會盡力做好 可是地方政府要怎麼做 說實話他一樣要報嘛 他一樣報給你這個我覺得是不是要跟地方政府或者是說我現在 我之所以會提這樣修法要對地方政府的監督我與其去期待各個縣市政府的縣市議會或是政府自己突然間腦袋靈光起來然後突然關注到這件小事"},{"start":311.582,"end":329.12,"text":"不如中央直接法規上遊戲規則做調整把那個行政的程序簡化嘛也就是說我地方既然本來就要報給中央我是不是就一併在平台的時候一併做上傳我以後是不是就只要一個平台就好地方的平台不用管他嘛就是中央平台全部看大家的效果也會比較好啊我把這個東西寫在法條裡面這樣子喔"},{"start":331.582,"end":355.823,"text":"第一個 我不認為這是小事啦 我認為這是大事啦那我們認為這件事情會對於企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果那第二個 我們願意來跟地方政府來溝通啦可是我的確 我沒有辦法全然的去控制地方政府的界面該怎麼設計但是我們會把中央的界面設計好我認為中央現在是最完整 而且做得最好我們把中央的界面給設計好"},{"start":356.664,"end":382.372,"text":"但是我們願意來跟地方政府討論是不是地方的介面應該要符合哪些原則包括他上傳的部分我今天談的就是這件事與其去期待各地方堅定標準然後跌床架屋嘛是不是以後就是把作業流程單純化也就是我地方全部收全部給你在你的完整平台公佈我地方中央都是給同一個網址通通看這個平台它的效果才會好 我的意思是這樣那委員您是說地方政府接下來不用做揭露囉"},{"start":383.473,"end":390.085,"text":"報給你你來揭露把它變成一套完整中央決定會揭露可是是不是地方政府就不必要去做揭露這件事情我"},{"start":392.386,"end":413.437,"text":"我覺得你覺得我覺得也不應該讓地方政府都沒有這些相關的事他可以把資料報給我們做完整的他本來就他本來就會把資料報給對那我們在我們的系統裡面把揭露的這個公開性做得更好可達性可可靜性做得更好這你都講我們都我們都會做他就不用做了"},{"start":414.118,"end":415.299,"text":"你覺得他就不用做嗎我的看法是這樣"},{"start":432.839,"end":451.342,"text":"地方政府也可以有他著重的揭露項目他把他的揭露項目做得更好我覺得這部分我們不會說他不應該比方說各縣市有各縣市他最在意的產業相關的財閥的問題他要再特別去做揭露或專案性的揭露我覺得這也很好我們會把中央的揭露系統給做好"},{"start":452.003,"end":475.766,"text":"但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任或沒有必要他去做揭露 我不會這樣說可是你回想一下你在NGO的時候如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站它的效果會不會這麼好那我會去挑最好的 我會去挑最好的來看是嘛 可是我不會說其他就沒有責任揭露如果這個地方能夠統合 一起把這個平台做到最好這個才是最有效率的這個這個事情我們中央會來做我們中央會做 可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任"},{"start":476.767,"end":491.898,"text":"地方政府通報的數據精準性什麼 要加強這當然是他的責任但是我們在談的是政策效果不要跌窗架屋 不要浪費多餘的時間跟人力強化政策的品質嘛 方向是這樣但沒關係 因為今天我們不要占用大家休息時間我們主條的時候再來好好討論 好不好好 辛苦 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1002,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時44分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。不好意思，耽誤大家休息時間。我們今天討論職業安全衛生法的修正案，本席也有提相關的案子，例如針對第四十九條提了一項修正案。這個修正案的用意是這樣的，我們借用質詢時間預先討論，逐條審查的時候，我們也希望勞動部可以用更開放的心態處理。目前規定要公布雇主姓名和名稱，就是違反勞動相關法令時要公示於眾，這樣才會有嚇阻力，對不對？","包括勞動基準法第八十條之一、勞退條例第五十三條之一、勞工職災保險及保護法第一百條、性別工作平等法第三十八條等等，其實有非常多條文。現在實際上的狀況是勞動部有一個統一的平台，各種違反勞動法令應該被公開的樣態都會登載在這個平台，這個平台上面的資料滿完整的，寫的非常清楚，包含各縣市別、事業單位名稱、處分的日期、違反的法規名稱及設置查詢等等選項，而且很好查。"],["洪部長申翰：我希望能更完整。"],["牛委員煦庭：你希望更完整？非常好，我們今天就針對這件事情做一下討論。這個平台是完整的，操作性也佳，但部長知不知道各地方政府執行的狀況如何？"],["洪部長申翰：他們有時候登錄的時間會延遲。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，本席的簡報一張、一張地放給你看。這是勞動部的平台嘛！其實內容已經非常清楚，剛才部長也說要做得更清楚，這點本席給予肯定。但各地方政府的部分就不像中央的這麼清楚，我們一張、一張的看，這幾張分別是苗栗、臺北、臺南的資料。就這幾個地方政府的樣態，本席在這邊向部長說明一下，地方大概就是把相關資料全部做成一個Excel檔或PDF檔，上傳到網路上就了事，對不對？","不管是操作易達性、資訊完整性、即時性，剛剛部長也有提到即時性，以及各網站的點閱率，一定是中央的效果好過各地方政府的效果。各地方政府變成什麼狀況？就是雖然有盡公布的義務，但恐怕是徒具形式，這點部長也很清楚，因為你以前待過NGO，對不對？以前透明足跡的網站就很棒，很多立法委員曾經拿來當作問政參考。為什麼？因為它是一個單一的平台，也有一定的知名度，所以大家會去查詢、使用那個資料。公布相關的裁罰才會對違法企業產生嚇阻和威嚇的效果，部長同意本席這樣說嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這是我們當初設計透明足跡的原意。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！部長也有這樣的經驗，所以你會希望這樣的平台優化。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席希望平台的優化可以一步到位，這一點本席相信部長應該有能力，也有經驗可以把它做得更好。但問題是我們現在需要什麼？我們希望簡政便民的部分也可以一併處理。也就是現在地方政府要把資料報給中央，然後又要丟在自己的網站上，本席覺得這是額外的業務負擔，不如藉由這次修法的機會乾脆整合。","也就是地方有資料，只要把格式按照你們心中比較完整的模式設計好，以後所有地方政府都一樣，有裁罰等作為時，只要彙整上傳就好了。這樣是不是全國只要一個平台就好，把非常詳細、完整的所有資料，公布在您所謂功能較好、內容較多的網站上？當所有要監督勞動相關議題的人，或者求職者要去查詢的時候，給予他們更好的易達性，這樣具有嚇阻效果，且網站有知名度可作為宣傳管道，對大家來說是不是比較方便？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，這次修法比較是針對職安法，因為近期幾個勞動法規的修法，都有在條文裡面放入資訊公開的條文，這次我們也把它放入職安法，讓它的法規授權能夠更清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，沒錯。"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，我們會努力，至少把勞動部自己的相關裁罰紀錄平台，也就是揭露的平台，我們希望能夠做得更好。其實我們近期也在和地方政府討論，例如條平司和地方政府討論，有些勞調上傳的速度比較慢，會delay，有時候大家可能過了一、兩個月還查不到，或者有什麼狀況，我們現在也希望他們在一定的時間內上傳，避免即時性不夠。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦！本席現在的意思就是藉由這次修法調整，在本席的條文中也有提到，就是各地方政府報到中央，統一在中央的平台公布。"],["洪部長申翰：中央的部分，我們會盡力做好，可是地方政府要怎麼做，說實話，這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：他們一樣要報給你們。"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得是不是要和地方政府討論？因為這也關係到對地方政府的監督。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席之所以會提這樣的修法方向，原因就在這裡，與其期待各縣市的議會或是政府單位突然間腦袋靈光起來，關注到這件小事，不如中央直接針對法規，就遊戲規則調整，把行政程序簡化嘛！也就是既然地方本來就要報給中央，那麼是不是一併上傳這個平台？以後是不是就在同一個平台上作業就好？地方的平台就不用管它嘛！只用中央的平台，這樣效果也會比較好，我們是把這個部分寫在法條裡面，採用這樣的方向。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，第一個，我不認為這是小事，我認為這是大事。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好。"],["洪部長申翰：我認為這件事情對企業端的嚇阻會有一定的效果。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，我們願意和地方政府溝通，可是我們的確沒有辦法全然控制地方政府的介面該怎麼設計，但是我們會把中央的介面設計好。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席認為現在中央的平台最完整，而且做得最好，知名度也最高嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我們會把中央的介面設計好，但是我們也願意和地方政府討論，例如地方的介面是否應該符合哪些原則，包括他們上傳的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席今天談的就是這件事，與其期待各地方政府自定標準、疊床架屋，是不是以後就把作業流程單純化？也就是地方蒐集之後，全部在你們的平台完整公布，地方、中央都是給同一個網址，大家通通都是看這個平台，這樣的效果才會好，本席的意思是這樣。"],["洪部長申翰：委員的意思是說，地方政府接下來不用揭露囉？"],["牛委員煦庭：把資料報給你們，由你們揭露，把它變成一套完整的資訊，這也是揭露啊！"],["洪部長申翰：中央絕對願意揭露，可是地方政府是不是就不必揭露？我覺得也不應該讓地方政府沒有這些相關資料，他們可以把資料報給我們，由我們完整的揭露，這……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，他們本來就會把資料報給你們嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。我們的系統要把公開性做得更好，可達性、可近性也要做得更好，這些我們都會做。"],["牛委員煦庭：你說的這些我們都同意，但我們現在談的是……"],["洪部長申翰：他們是否就不用做了？"],["牛委員煦庭：本席現在談的是簡政，不要疊床架屋做無意義的事情嘛！這樣是不是會有更多空間？如果不要讓他們做那麼多事，不只地方要揭露，中央也要揭露，結果是資料一大堆，彙整的格式也不一樣。如果你們把這一段省下來，要求他們的即時性和精準性，這樣是不是比較有意義？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我的看法是這樣，地方政府也可以有他們著重的揭露項目，把他們的揭露項目做得更好，所以這部分我不會說他們不應該做。比方各縣市有各縣市最在意的產業相關裁罰問題，他們要再特別揭露或專案性的揭露，我覺得這也很好。我們會把中央的揭露系統做好，但是我不會說地方政府就沒有責任，或沒有必要去揭露，我不會這樣說。"],["牛委員煦庭：你回想一下當初在NGO的時候，如果今天同時有18個透明足跡的網站，它的效果會不會這麼好？你稍微想一下。"],["洪部長申翰：那我會挑最好的來看。"],["牛委員煦庭：是嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：可是我不會說其他的就沒有責任揭露。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果各地方能夠統合，一起把這個平台做到最好，這才是最有效率的政策嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：這個事情中央會做。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦！"],["洪部長申翰：中央會做，可是我不覺得地方政府就沒有責任。"],["牛委員煦庭：地方政府通報的數據精準性怎麼加強？這個當然是他們的責任，但我們談的是政策效果，不要疊床架屋、不要浪費多餘的時間和人力，要強化政策的品質嘛！方向是這樣。但是沒關係，今天我們不要占用大家休息的時間，逐條審查的時候再來好好討論，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員發言，謝謝部長的答詢。我們休息到一點再繼續開會。","休息（12時52分）","繼續開會（13時）"],["主席：不好意思，讓大家沒有充分的休息時間，不過因為時間到了，我們就繼續開會。","下一位請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164207","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164207","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6040cc7ae1bcac9c5bc2e7a8918bc9e77b6741136213cfef6156fa8563f3c78f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:33:29 - 12:44:17","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T12:33:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T12:44:17+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.00971875,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.82659375,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.56909375,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.66971875,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.32784375,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.42721875,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.548468750000005,"end":37.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.32034375,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.125968750000006,"end":42.994718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.33221875,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.673468750000005,"end":49.744718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.99784375,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.63721875,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.52284375,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.52534375,"end":105.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.62159375,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.02596875,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.05971875,"end":119.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.61659375,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.35846875000001,"end":123.64034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.78784375000001,"end":125.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.87221875,"end":125.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.18846875000001,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.46596875,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.52034375,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.00971875000002,"end":162.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.57909375,"end":168.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.51096875000002,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.52784375000002,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.54471875000002,"end":173.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.12221875,"end":180.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.40034375000002,"end":174.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.06596875000002,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.51159375,"end":191.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.88284375,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.25346875000002,"end":202.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.42971875,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.54659375,"end":212.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.01471875000001,"end":213.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.75284375,"end":214.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.35596875000002,"end":216.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.68471875,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.62096875,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.80971875,"end":228.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.44221875000002,"end":233.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.24784375000002,"end":235.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.06159375000001,"end":248.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.15221875,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"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治安法的健康保護四大計畫請問一下您知道是哪四大嗎"},{"start":211.155,"end":235.031,"text":"不罰侵害不罰侵害母性健康保護異常工作負荷過勞預防我想這些四大計畫當中我們要清楚明確知道長榮航空有沒有制定老傑有沒有查就我們知道長榮應該是有制定相關計畫有查到有制定"},{"start":236.178,"end":260.104,"text":"那職安法23條要求僱主職業安全衛生管理計畫其中含工作環境或作業危害的一個辨識評估控制長榮有沒有做危害評估有沒有落實老建有沒有去看有或沒有沒有看就說沒有沒關係跟委員報告齁那個在檢查的部分安全衛生是一定會看到這部分的危害評估不好意思"},{"start":263.297,"end":287.39,"text":"那個安全衛生管理計劃委員是講那個危害評估的部分是指這一次的檢查嗎這一次檢查或是歷年來的檢查他有沒有制定沒有 我們在107年有發現他有在這個部分沒有做到那個危害的評估這個部分到現在有沒有嘛那這一次的檢查 107年不要說嘛這一次的檢查因為他部長上任到現在嘛"},{"start":288.794,"end":295.369,"text":"這次的檢查因為剛剛部長提到我們還要再進一步去了解會做這部分不像107年你說沒有嘛 對不對"},{"start":297.153,"end":323.305,"text":"剛剛你說的嘛那107年沒有有沒有糾正他要去把他執行我們這部分我們再去了解好不好但通常這麼大的公司他其實應該要有我們也希望他有但107年你說有嘛那你應該要直接給我回應107年糾正以後他應該要有107年的時候沒有他有違反這個但是現在近期我們再把資訊弄清楚這麼多年我們不可能查到他沒有就這樣結束吧一定會輔導他變成要有嘛"},{"start":324.281,"end":352.571,"text":"那所以我應該是聽到你應該要具體的回答我107年沒有但後面幾年我們糾正他完我們現在去確認而不是到現在還要確認我們現在去確認部長我沒有要責備但是我們都在檢討問題探討問題然後希望能夠揪出問題那本案的空服員我們現在雖然是在非執行勤務的時間去病逝但他的病因跟職務是否有相關可否認定是職災這部分勞動部"},{"start":355.166,"end":381.717,"text":"這部分會做專業當然這部分我們會做專業的調查但是因為是否職災或是否職業病這大概有一個比較專業的認定但是這部分我們會來重視他們的權益那長榮航空規定空服員若三個月內請假含特休超過三天隔月及上司選班及選假的資格多次請假還需提改善計畫這樣的制度讓員工不敢生病不敢請假形同變相的懲罰請問部長"},{"start":383.359,"end":393.718,"text":"這是否有違反勞基法保障之請假權又將如何防範相關的企業升遷、績效、制度、懲處依法請假的員工"},{"start":395.523,"end":423.125,"text":"跟我們說明 如果長榮航空有拒絕勞工請病假的話這當然就違法勞基法當然是 當然但是他剛剛是說變相懲罰他是用制度讓他們沒辦法去選假還有選班是 因為這部分我們的確現在聽到蠻多機組員都反映這個狀況對所以我們現在的確也在檢討 比方尤其是現在大家特別關注病假的部分那是不是有因為請病假而有這些不利的對待的狀況"},{"start":424.69,"end":440.857,"text":"那就像我們大概先做幾個層次第一個層次是我們先看到最多在其他的企業裡面我們不要看到像全勤獎金來作為一個獎懲的這樣子的使用那的確我們做了一些研議跟檢討我們認為"},{"start":442.337,"end":451.685,"text":"勞工請併價不應該就沒收整個月的全勤獎金的這個狀況那這部分我們會來面對全勤獎金這個部分您有所作為嗎我們會來提出一些制度性的辦法現在是這個選辦跟選價的一個資格"},{"start":459.591,"end":477.846,"text":"是不是也應該一併列入相關的檢討然後去建議企業甚至是防範企業有這樣子的一個規範因為請病假的樣態蠻多的然後不利被認知為不利對債的樣態比較多所以我們這部分我會請我們的調評師我們相關的業務單位其實來做一個比較綜合性的檢視"},{"start":479.167,"end":500.322,"text":"另外我要再請問一下因為今天職安法預計就要開始進行逐條雖然是到第二條但是長榮航空相關的一個事件檢討要不要納入這一次職安法的修法內容後續針對院版勞動部會不會提出修正動議這部分您覺得呢哪一個部分長榮航空所引發的事件"},{"start":501.323,"end":514.796,"text":"我們在做相關的一個檢討的時候會不會有剛剛所說的選假 選班這些利用制度來漠視這些勞工的請假權然後把它列入到法案裡面"},{"start":515.529,"end":544.475,"text":"我們現在就像剛剛說針對權情的部分的相關的權利其實我們現在也在研議幾個路徑我們希望能夠有效的保障可是幾個有效的路徑不一定一定是在這一次的修法裡面保障可是我們來會找到一個比較制度性能夠保障的方法 重點要有效朝委都已經要進入這樣子的一個豬條討論的時候我覺得如果有機會入法當然是最好的嘛"},{"start":545.235,"end":559.703,"text":"我覺得我們要來看是要處理什麼樣的問題然後當然原本治安法有他的一套治安法的體制然後這個治安法的體制的框架裡面適不適合來做這方面的修訂我覺得這個部分"},{"start":560.183,"end":587.239,"text":"我覺得大家可以來討論我們當然探討討論那今天也是藉由這個機會為其發聲最後30秒我想職場霸凌案依保訓會的規定公務員可向保訓會再申訴勞工卻無法向地方勞動機關再提救濟只能訴諸法院我想部長這樣的制度落差是否剝奪了勞工公平的權益我想勞工向職場申請的這個職場霸凌調查總不能公司自己調查自己吧依專章規定"},{"start":588.52,"end":607.879,"text":"職場霸凌的調查小組要外聘委員但多少事業規模以上要外聘委員部長有沒有想法外聘委員的比例要不要超過二分之一外聘委員要不要專家背景外聘委員我們會設定要二分之一我想霸凌的調查案很容易成立但是需要有外聘委員的時候對於這些專家的量能夠不夠勞動部有沒有資料庫"},{"start":610.201,"end":629.519,"text":"提供這些企業我們其實現在正在培訓然後希望能夠把這些有資格來做外聘委員的這個人才庫給建立起來第二個剛剛講到地方政府的部分現在並不是沒有跟地方政府的救濟單位其實如果勞工認為企業主在調查的過程裡面有程序上面的為師的話"},{"start":630.62,"end":646.906,"text":"其實可以依照職安法39條來邀請地方政府的勞政單位來去做勞檢檢查來去確認程序上面是否合乎法規如果不合乎法規的話也必須重啟調查好今天主席站起來了那我們就先討論到這邊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":928,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時33分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，我們今天討論這一個題目令人非常、非常的遺憾，去年勞動部，今年是長榮；去年謝宜容，今年是長榮。請部長不要忘記自己是因為什麼原因才能夠接任部長。勞動部是勞工朋友的大家長，請您接任部長就是希望可以處理霸凌的問題，而不是讓任何形式的霸凌問題，一而再、再而三的不斷發生。到底是企業的文化還是制度的設計問題？難道這樣的請假制度設計不是一種霸凌嗎？","這次職安法的修法，我們可以看到對於高風險的行業，要求需要做風險評估，要辨識所有潛在的危害。我們都希望評估危害的風險，並且能夠依評估結果採取適當的預防改善措施，包含建立預防計畫，進行風險分級管理，以及定期更新評估報告。本席要先請問一下部長，你認為航空業是不是高風險行業？"],["洪部長申翰：要從安全的角度，還是從哪一個角度來看？"],["羅委員廷瑋：都可以，就是綜合評估。"],["洪部長申翰：因為要看討論哪種風險，例如飛安的風險還是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不然這樣子，本席更明確的向您請教，您知道空服員職務可能引起的職業病嗎？包括相關的種類？"],["洪部長申翰：的確，空服員容易罹患肌肉、骨骼方面的疾病，這部分我們也非常關注。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們可以看到，空服員在高壓、輪班、長時間及時差之下工作，還要緊急應變，如果沒有做健康管理，甚至容易導致過勞、睡眠不足、免疫力下降、慢性病惡化，猝死的風險極高。本席要問的是，從您上任到現在、到最近，在這個過程當中，工會有沒有和你接觸過？或者是反映過？"],["洪部長申翰：工會這段時間有提一些議題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有沒有反映過相關問題？例如人力的剝削？"],["洪部長申翰：向羅委員說明，其實我親自訪視過航空業的基層員工，包括他們遇到的職業病或者職災問題，我自己親自訪視過，也向他們做過了解。"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席希望您一定要重視所有基層的勞工朋友，因為現在看到這樣的問題，所以本席還是要再次提醒。部長，職安法有健康保護四大計畫，請問您知道是哪四大嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不法侵害。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不法侵害、母性健康保護、異常工作負荷。"],["洪部長申翰：過勞預防。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這四大計畫當中，我們要清楚明確地知道，長榮航空有沒有制訂相關計畫？勞檢有沒有調查？"],["洪部長申翰：就我們知道，長榮應該是有制訂相關計畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有查到他們有制訂計畫。職安法第二十三條要求雇主提職業安全衛生管理計畫，其中含工作環境或作業危害的辨識、評估、控制，長榮有沒有做危害評估？有沒有落實？勞檢有沒有去看？有或沒有？沒有看就說沒有，沒關係。"],["林署長毓堂：在檢查時，安全衛生的部分是一定會看的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：還有危害評估的部分，不好意思。"],["林署長毓堂：委員是說危害評估的部分？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["林署長毓堂：是指這一次的檢查嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：這一次的檢查或是歷年的檢查，他們有沒有制訂計畫？"],["林署長毓堂：我們107年就發現他們沒有做到危害評估這個部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在有沒有做？"],["林署長毓堂：這一次的檢查……"],["羅委員廷瑋：107年的就不要說了，只說最近的狀況，從部長上任到現在。"],["林署長毓堂：這一次的檢查，剛剛部長也有提到，我們還要再進一步去了解，我們會就這個部分……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不是啊！你說107年沒有嘛！對不對？"],["林署長毓堂：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這是剛剛你說的嘛！107年沒有制訂計畫，你們有沒有糾正他們要去執行？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這部分我們再去了解，好不好？通常這麼大的公司，其實……"],["羅委員廷瑋：應該要有計畫，我們也希望他們有。但你說107年沒有嘛！你應該直接回應本席，107年糾正以後，他們應該要制訂相關計畫。"],["洪部長申翰：不是的。107年的時候沒有制訂，當時他們是違反這個規定，至於近期，我們把資訊弄清楚再向委員說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在是114年，已經經過這麼多年，不可能當時查到他們沒有制訂計畫，就這樣結束吧？一定會輔導他們一定要制訂嘛！所以你應該要具體回答本席，107年沒有制訂計畫，但後面幾年經過我們糾正之後，他們有制訂了，而不是還要確認。"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在去確認，好不好？"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，本席不是要責備，我們是希望能檢討問題、探討問題，希望能夠揪出問題。本案的空服員雖然是在非執行勤務時病逝，但他的病因和職務是否相關？可否認定是職災？這部分勞動部可不可以給予協助？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這部分我們會做專業的調查，但因為是否為職災或職業病需要做比較專業的認定，這部分我們會做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：也希望重視他們的權益。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：長榮航空規定空服員若三個月內請假超過三天，含特休，隔月即喪失選班及選假的資格，多次請假還需提改善計畫，這樣的制度讓員工不敢生病、不敢請假，形同變相懲罰。請問部長，這是否違反勞基法保障之請假權？又將如何防範相關的企業違法，以升遷、績效制度懲處依法請假的員工。"],["洪部長申翰：如果長榮航空拒絕勞工請病假的話，當然就違反勞基法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然是。但剛剛是說變相懲罰，公司是用制度讓他們沒辦法選假、選班。"],["洪部長申翰：是。因為我們現在的確聽到滿多機組員反映這個狀況，所以我們的確也在檢討，尤其是現在大家特別關注的病假部分，是不是因為請病假而有這些不利對待的狀況。我們大概會先做幾個層次，第一個層次，在其他企業，比方以全勤獎金作為獎懲的使用。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，沒有錯。"],["洪部長申翰：的確，我們做了一些研議和檢討，我們認為勞工請病假不應該沒收整個月的全勤獎金，這部分我們會提出一些制度性的方案予以保障。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對嘛！面對全勤獎金這個部分，您要有所作為嘛！你們認為不應該以整個月計算嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們覺得不應該。"],["羅委員廷瑋：選班和選假的資格是不是也應該一併列入相關檢討，建議企業，甚至是防範企業做這樣的規範？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，因為請病假的樣態滿多的，被認知為不利對待的樣態也比較多，所以這部分會請條平司和相關業務單位綜合性的檢視。"],["羅委員廷瑋：另外本席要再請問一下，因為今天職安法預計開始進行逐條審查，雖然只會到第二條，但是長榮航空相關的事件檢討，要不要納入這次職安法的修法內容？後續針對院版，勞動部會不會提出修正動議？關於這部分，您覺得呢？"],["洪部長申翰：哪一個部分？"],["羅委員廷瑋：針對長榮航空引發的事件，我們在做相關檢討的時候，包括剛剛所說的選假、選班問題，利用制度漠視勞工的請假權，會不會把這部分列入法案？會不會有修正動議？"],["洪部長申翰：就像剛剛說的，針對全勤部分的相關權利……"],["羅委員廷瑋：會入法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們現在也在研議幾個路徑，我們希望能夠有效保障啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，入法就是有效的保障。"],["洪部長申翰：有幾個有效的路徑，不一定是在這次的修法內容裡面保障。"],["羅委員廷瑋：本席知道。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會找到一個能夠比較制度性給予保障的方法，重點是要有效。"],["羅委員廷瑋：既然召委都已經準備進入逐條審查，本席覺得如果有機會入法當然是最好的，本席也期許有修正動議。"],["洪部長申翰：就是我們再來要處理什麼樣的問題。當然，原本職安法自有一套職安的體制，在職安法的體制框架裡面適不適合做這方面的修定？我覺得這個部分大家可以討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們當然要探討、討論，今天也是藉由這個機會為其發聲。最後30秒，職場霸凌案依保訓會的規定，公務員可向保訓會再申訴，勞工卻無法向地方勞動機關再提救濟，只能訴諸法院。部長，這樣的制度落差是否剝奪勞工的權益？勞工向職場申請的職場霸凌調查，總不能公司自己調查自己吧？依專章規定，職場霸凌的調查小組要外聘委員，但什麼樣的事業規模要外聘委員？部長有沒有想法？外聘委員的比例要不要超過二分之一？外聘委員需不需要具備專家背景？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會設定要二分之一外聘委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：霸凌的調查案很容易成立，但是需要有外聘委員的時候，這些專家的量能夠不夠？勞動部有沒有資料庫可以提供企業參考？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們現在正在培訓，希望能夠把這些有資格做外聘委員的人才庫建立起來。第二個，剛剛說到地方政府的部分，現在並不是沒有地方政府層級的救濟單位，如果勞工認為企業主在調查過程中有程序上的違失，可以依照職安法第三十九條，邀請地方政府的勞政單位做勞動檢查，確認程序是否合乎法規，不合乎法規的話就必須重啟調查。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，主席站起來了，我們就先討論到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164206","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164206","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6768b2afd3190f42b1d8817d393176c43b6741136213cfef6c4f653766fc134325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:45:06 - 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請問一下是這個嗎不好意思 等我一下投影片好 我們有請農業部部長請部長午安好"},{"start":35.831,"end":64.722,"text":"部長好 首先我想先跟你討論一下這是昨天的新聞但是其實我收到這一個地方呢這個地方呢 我先跟部長說明一下它是一個公園遊戲場在鹿港在這個彰化縣的鹿港鎮的一個鹿港的運動公園那個地方總共有23隻遊蕩犬躺在兒童遊戲場的沙坑裡面為什麼我會收到這個通報呢是在9月26號的時候家長告訴我遊戲場裡面的沙坑都是狗"},{"start":65.162,"end":80.239,"text":"他不敢帶小孩去玩後來呢昨天呢就彰化市就有彰化縣就有去處理了就去抓了可是抓的時候卻發現了一個問題是像這個中間的綠色衣服的人呢是我們把狗抓了對不對他把那個閘門打開了"},{"start":81.36,"end":103.737,"text":"把狗放出來那晚上的監視器呢也拍到了是說有人去把原本放在裡面要誘捕的這個肉包子呢有民眾把他拿到外面來所以等於是說我們事實上整個過程之中即便我們動保處的人已經很認真的去捕抓可是事實上民眾就是讓他無法執行了所以我想問一下就是說在我們現在啊"},{"start":109.08,"end":131.673,"text":"我們好不容易去抓的時候卻被放走但是根據我們現在的動保法的第21條的第1項的規定如果有犬隻在外遊蕩的時候任何人都可以協助將其交到動物收容所可是當他今天依據人道捕犬作業規則委託動物管制人員進行捕犬作業的時候這個作業並沒有制定在動保法的條文之中"},{"start":132.313,"end":160.916,"text":"所以這個行為就變成是一種行為那我想問一下這到底有沒有任何的辦法我們可以來阻止或者是處罰這些放國的民眾因為他就是妨礙公務了嘛這樣以現在的法規好像是沒辦法處理就是說他類似妨礙公務的部分但是我覺得可以處理的就是當動保人員就是動保局方面訊到裡面的時候他可以插牌去先做告示說我現在在執行公務他有插"},{"start":162.109,"end":191.433,"text":"執行公務的話他如果違反就是妨礙執行公務的話應該有相關的規定可以處理的目前我們是沒有查到所以我們現在是查到好像是無法可以處理的這就變成是說我們的法是沒辦法但是妨礙公務應該有妨礙公務的相關的辦法目前我們好像也沒有因為他必須還是要在主管機關的這邊來處理所以我想問一下就是說因為現在基本上我們就是如果今天這隻狗沒有咬人那還是萬幸但如果他咬人的話那這就大事了對不對"},{"start":191.973,"end":214.938,"text":"所以我們是不是可以先來處理這種防害捕捉行為的法律空白的問題呢我知道修動保法很困難啦 對不對但是這個情況我們是不是可以先行來處理跟研議相關的法制作業我們看看可不可以在不動法規裡面用相關的辦法的部分來做一些處理然後有相關的這些比較強制性的作為好 那大概什麼時候可以有一個初步的規劃呢"},{"start":216.898,"end":228.611,"text":"兩個禮拜內兩個禮拜內好那兩個禮拜內好謝謝那下一題齁就是說這一個部分呢我延伸這一題就是說我們現在呢這個地方喔它並沒有在我們的人權衝突樂區的範圍內就是我去查了彰化只有在芬園它並沒有鹿港這個地點"},{"start":234.557,"end":260.803,"text":"可是這個地方從9月26號到昨天都是20幾隻狗左右那我就想說我們這個通報是不是有一點點落差呢我們有沒有可能因為像我自己也收到很多民眾就是說他可能去山邊爬山的時候遇到野狗或是去那個河濱公園跑步的時候遇到很多野狗他不一定會通報因為他可能也不知道怎麼通報所以我們有沒有可能像是環境部啦他們會有一些通報的APP我們是不是也可以產出這樣子的APP讓我們更清楚的知道遊蕩犬的位置到底在哪裡"},{"start":261.283,"end":276.387,"text":"我覺得委員所提到的就是用APP讓民眾可以自行去通報我覺得這個非常好因為我們現在有很多照相的APP可以直接去轉Title改一下直接去改它照相然後就上傳到背後的我覺得這個非常好我們回去可以馬上改這個版本"},{"start":276.707,"end":300.163,"text":"我想這也是一個公民科學家一起來參與啦因為這也回應到那個部長之前一直在講數據的部分有沒有更精準的數據那這個部分的話大概什麼時候我們可以再來追下一步的進度呢我回去馬上交代他可以馬上改這個APP但是APP改完以後要核准上架需要一點時間啦然後我想一兩個禮拜這個APP一兩個禮拜就可以改然後我們馬上申請上架上架以後就可以了"},{"start":300.68,"end":330.3,"text":"好的好的那Boss我再借用一點點時間快快的請教部長一個意見就是說我們上次有部長有提供給我一個OKR但是我也跟民間團體在討論的時候民間團體覺得說這裡面的一些OKR的標準其實是實際上好像有些目標過低的問題有一些目標好像也不切實際是不是有可能跟我們的專家學者再來進一步的討論讓我們因為我們目標就是希望可以去做更精準然後更清楚的一個防範的"},{"start":331.861,"end":360.287,"text":"保护我们的生态乐区我们是不是有可能请相关的领域专家来进一步的讨论好不好修正我觉得这个部分可能同样是乐区也有不同强度的乐区不同强度乐区应该有不同的标准对但是我们有针对你们但是我们有针对你们写的十五跟草箫来找相关的专家团体讨论的时候他们觉得这个目标不切实际对这个我想谢谢委员的提醒我们在用什么方式找外部的团体来开会好谢谢谢谢张亚林委员资讯"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1271,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時45分）謝謝主席，不好意思等我一下投影片。"],["主席：好，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：我們有請農業部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。首先我想先跟你討論一下，這是昨天的新聞，這個地方我先跟部長說明一下，它是一個公園遊戲場，位在彰化縣鹿港鎮的一個運動公園。那個地方總共有23隻遊蕩犬，躺在兒童遊戲場的沙坑裡面，為什麼我會收到這個通報呢？是在9月26日的時候，有家長告訴我遊戲場裡面的沙坑都是狗，他不敢帶小孩去玩，昨天彰化縣就有去處理去抓了。可是抓的時候卻發現一個問題，像中間這位綠色衣服的人，我們把狗抓了對不對？他就把那個閘門打開，把狗放出來。","晚上的監視器也拍到，有人把原本放在裡面要誘捕的肉包子拿到外面來，等於是整個過程中，即便我們動保處的人已經很認真去捕抓，可是民眾就是讓他無法執行啦！所以我想問一下，現在我們好不容易去抓狗卻被放走，根據動保法第二十一條第一項的規定，如果有犬隻在外遊蕩的話，任何人都可以協助將其交到動物收容所。可是今天依據人道捕犬作業規則，委託動物管制人員進行捕犬作業的時候，這個作業並沒有制定在動保法的條文之中。","我想問一下，這到底有沒有任何的辦法，可以來阻止或者是處罰這些放狗的民眾？因為他就是妨礙公務了嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：以現在的法規，好像是沒辦法處理，就是說他類似妨礙公務的部分，但是我覺得可以處理的就是，當動保局的動保人員進到裡面的時候，他可以插牌先做告示，說我現在在執行公務。"],["張委員雅琳：他有插。"],["陳部長駿季：執行公務的話，如果違反就是妨礙執行公務，應該有相關的規定可以處理的。"],["張委員雅琳：目前我們是沒有查到耶！我們現在查到的是好像無法可以處理，變成是說……"],["陳部長駿季：我們的法是沒辦法，但是妨礙公務，應該有妨礙公務相關的辦法吧？"],["張委員雅琳：目前好像也沒有，因為他必須還是要在主管機關這邊來處理，所以我想問，如果今天這隻狗沒有咬人還是萬幸，但如果他咬人了，哇！那真的就大事了對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們是不是可以先來處理這種妨害捕捉行為法律空白的問題呢？我知道修動保法很困難，但是這個情況我們是不是可以先行處理跟研議相關的法制作業？"],["陳部長駿季：我們看看可不可以在不動法規的情況下，用相關的辦法來做一些處理，有比較強制性的作為。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那大概什麼時候可以有一個初步的規劃呢？"],["陳部長駿季：兩個禮拜內。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。下一題我繼續延伸，現在這個地方，並沒有在我們人犬衝突熱區的範圍內，我去查了，彰化只有在芬園，並沒有鹿港這個地點。可是這個地方從9月26日到昨天，都是二十幾隻狗左右。我就在想，這個通報是不是有一點點落差呢？","因為像我自己也收到很多民眾反應，說他爬山的時候遇到野狗，或是去河濱公園跑步的時候遇到很多野狗，但他不一定會通報，因為他可能也不知道怎麼通報。所以我們有沒有可能，像是環境部會有一些通報的app，我們是不是也可以產出這樣子的app，讓我們更清楚的知道，遊蕩犬的位置到底在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得委員所提到的，就是用app讓民眾可以自行去通報，我覺得非常好。因為我們現在有很多照相的app可以直接去轉，title改一下，直接照個相就能上傳，我覺得這個非常好，我們回去可以馬上改這個版本。"],["張委員雅琳：我想這也是一個公民科學家一起來參與，因為這也回應到部長之前一直在講數據的部分，有沒有更精準的數據，這個部分大概什麼時候可以再追下一步的進度呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我回去馬上交代，他可以馬上改這個app，但這個app改完以後，核准上架需要一點時間，我想這個app一、兩個禮拜就可以改好，然後我們馬上申請上架，上架以後就可以了。"],["張委員雅琳：好的，不好意思我再借用一點時間，快快的請教部長一個意見。上次部長有提供給我一個OKR，但是我跟民間團體在討論的時候，民間團體覺得裡面一些OKR的標準，好像有些目標過低的問題，然後有一些目標好像也不切實際，是不是有可能跟我們的專家學者，再來進一步的討論？因為我們的目標就是希望可以去做更精準、更清楚的防範，保護我們的生態熱區，是不是有可能請相關領域的專家來進一步的討論？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我覺得這個部分同樣是熱區，有不同強度的熱區，不同強度的熱區應該有不同的標準。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們有針對你們寫的石虎跟草鴞，找相關團體討論的時候，他們覺得這個目標不切實際。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，我們看再用什麼方式，找外部的團體來開會。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員質詢，謝謝部長。","我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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是"},{"start":175.077,"end":191.696,"text":"只有愛文跟海頓然後原則上日本一直想說要同意這個金黃輸入金黃第一高的是在這個高雄第二是在台南是在本席的選區裡頭那現在這種狀況的話金黃到底什麼時候可以全品項的這個輸出啊"},{"start":193.678,"end":216.34,"text":"其實金黃其實我們一直在跟日本在談最近的一次他叫我們補件那補件我們也補過去了那其實我們估計應該是可以但是相對的以這種談判的過程中就算他們覺得可以的他不一定會馬上公告他可能在等時間這個我們還會持續的去努力部長"},{"start":218.28,"end":243.129,"text":"現實來說 貿易是雙向的 大家是互相的嘛其實說金黃 還有育文 還有農民黨一號 這都是我們希望的目標嘛但是對方要什麼 像山口縣的知識就來好幾隻啦他要tomato啦 他要tomato 還有什麼 還有河豚嘛山口縣的知識我們要找幾招 大家談一談嘛 就不用在那邊拖嘛我們有在談啦 談是談從交換的角度看吧 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":243.669,"end":258.717,"text":"沒有 我想第一個一定要通過不可能是單方受益嘛沒有 通過那個核凍一定要通過安全評估嘛那個都去過了我已經確認了啦那小班傑的部分對 小班傑的部分喔技術本身我們應該也可以"},{"start":259.497,"end":278.131,"text":"可以去處理啦相對的就是說什麼時間點是啦現在就是在final在談時間點我什麼東西什麼時候過去什麼時候回來我們在11月11月10號會有個台日的經貿的會議然後在那裡的時候我想我們可能10月10號就會有比較好消息"},{"start":279.512,"end":295.419,"text":"你那個經貿會議在談的時候 麻煩一下 毛豆的部分我們現在的這個稅金最高啦 關稅最高比泰國越南都零 還比中國還高啦另外一個部分齁 這一個鳳梨的部分啦 也是這一個高達這個17還有30之多啦"},{"start":298.9,"end":314.672,"text":"麻煩這要透過EPA的部分來做一個好好的處理累進用積木的方式來堆積好不好建構一個方式才能真正達到你這一個深耕日本市場然後最後我再講一個你這內容當中我來不及問了你這個擴大貫區計畫的現在目前的進度麻煩事後給本席一分好 謝謝郭國文委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1214,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時39分）主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：最近高麗菜之亂好像又要開始了，價格都浮動得非常快，8月的時候綠轉紅，9月的時候紅，10月會怎麼樣？到11月的時候，可能高冷地跟平地生產又會重疊。過往從2024年到2025年都有三個版本，一下子「貴桑桑」，接下來下跌，然後又回穩。每次標題說高麗菜種植過多價格會崩盤，我先請問一下，10月的部分到底是紅還是紫？可不可以判斷一下？"],["陳部長駿季：10月的部分應該會紅燈。"],["郭委員國文：11月呢？"],["陳部長駿季：11月應該就不會紅，會轉成綠了。"],["郭委員國文：沒問題，可是為什麼每次媒體都報得非常誇張，說又超量了，你真的確定今年不會發生高麗菜之亂嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想以現在超量的情況，應該會在11月多的時候有一些問題，11月下旬到12月的時候，可能會有一些價格比較低。"],["郭委員國文：所以11月上旬跟中旬比較危險？"],["陳部長駿季：應該是下旬到12月底之前。"],["郭委員國文：就是到11月下旬跟12月的時候就會比較趨緩？"],["陳部長駿季：對，價格會比較低。"],["郭委員國文：所以最關鍵是11月嘛對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員國文：所以這部分為什麼每年都上演，難道沒有一個其他可以解決的方式嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：其實我們知道高麗菜就是變成賭博菜。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是我已經對外宣示，如果我們發布了這些燈，他們繼續種，未來絕對不會去干預市場……"],["郭委員國文：之前也這樣說。"],["陳部長駿季：我們一直沒有干預這個市場。"],["郭委員國文：但是後來還是再發生。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員國文：每年持續不斷上演，這是第一個，你回去好好想一下這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：我希望在部長的任內能夠澈底解決高麗菜之亂，不要每年都上演。第二個部分，官田的菱角資材到底會不會補助？"],["陳部長駿季：可以啦！"],["郭委員國文：可以嗎？確定吧？"],["陳部長駿季：可以處理。"],["郭委員國文：已經搞那麼久了，你就早一點說嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：可以。"],["郭委員國文：再來，之前你在報告當中寫要深耕日本，2011年的時候，我們就跟農林水產所提出芒果全品項的討論，只有愛文跟海頓，原則上日本一直想同意金煌輸入。金煌第一高是在高雄，第二在臺南，在本席的選區裡頭，現在這種狀況，金煌到底什麼時候可以全品項輸出？"],["陳部長駿季：金煌其實我們一直在跟日本談……"],["郭委員國文：對啊！但就只聞樓梯響，沒有下來啊！"],["陳部長駿季：最近的一次是他叫我們補件，我們也補過去了，其實我們估計應該是可以，但是相對這種談判的過程，就算他們覺得可以了，也不一定會馬上公告，他可能在等時間，這個我們還會持續去努力。"],["郭委員國文：部長，現實來說，貿易是雙向的，大家是互相的，其實金煌、玉文還有農民黨一號，都是我們希望的目標，但對方要什麼？像山口縣的知事……"],["陳部長駿季：他想要番茄。"],["郭委員國文：除了番茄他還想要什麼？河豚嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：山口縣的知事都不知道跑了幾趟，大家談一談，就不用在那邊拖嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們有在談啦！基本……"],["郭委員國文：談是從交換的角度看嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個一定要通過……"],["郭委員國文：不可能是單方受益嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，河豚的部分一定要通過安全評估。"],["郭委員國文：那個衛福部都去過了啦！都已經確認了啦！就是小番茄的問題啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，小番茄的部分，技術本身我們應該也可以去處理，相對的就是說什麼時間點。"],["郭委員國文：是啊！現在就是在final在談時間點，什麼東西什麼時候過去，什麼時候回來，本席就是要你說……"],["陳部長駿季：我們在11月10日會有一個臺日經貿會議，到時候我們會更進一步的……"],["郭委員國文：11月10日就會有消息？你那個經貿會議在談的時候，麻煩一下毛豆的部分，我們現在稅金最高。"],["陳部長駿季：對，關稅最高。"],["郭委員國文：泰國、越南都零，比中國還高，另外鳳梨的部分，也是高達17和30之多，麻煩透過EPA的部分來好好的處理。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們一直在……"],["郭委員國文：用堆積木的方式來累進，好不好？建構一個方式，才能真正達到深耕日本市場。最後我附帶講一個，你的內容我來不及問了，關於擴大灌區計畫目前的進度，麻煩事後給本席一份，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員質詢，謝謝部長質詢。","我們現在請林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","我們請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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67,"end":8.539,"text":"時間4分鐘謝謝主席 麻煩請部長好 鄭部長請"},{"start":18.362,"end":40.435,"text":"委員好部長好因為昨天總質詢時間很有限還有一題跟教育部有關係的來不及問所以我今天特別來這裡跟您垂詢今天我想針對教育部推動的這個青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫來請教那這項計畫是落實賴總統政見一個非常重要的政策"},{"start":41.235,"end":60.157,"text":"主要在帮助15到30岁的青年可以出国拓展国际视野培养行动力和竞争力这个计划分为竹梦工厂组和海外翱翔组包括年度旗舰计划例如像今年的环境永续的主题"},{"start":61.839,"end":89.681,"text":"經費也相當可觀我想這個不僅是能夠讓台灣青年在國際舞台上展現他們的創造力還有他們的韌性也可以帶動整個百工百業一個創新的成長我個人是非常認同這樣子的一個方向因為這樣的一個計畫它給年輕人一個圓夢的機會特別是這些資源相對不足的這些青年"},{"start":91.862,"end":108.11,"text":"我想請教一下就是今年的報名情形還有整個弱勢組比較偏鄉啦原住民還有經濟弱勢的這些年輕人的報名"},{"start":109.23,"end":136.499,"text":"状况如何感谢委员的一个关心确实这个青年百亿这一个青年这一个海外这个圆梦计划确实在今年来讲它确实是创造了我们许多年轻朋友从15岁到30岁有非常大的一个关注那整个报名以今年第一年的一个这样一个第一年的一个办理"},{"start":137.439,"end":163.175,"text":"總共有八千八百多位這一個十五歲到三十歲的這個年輕朋友 青少年包括這一些年輕朋友來報名那確實我們看到了就比較像原住民或者經濟弱勢或者甚至身心障礙的他的報名比例是偏低的也就是說我們看到原住民大概就只有"},{"start":164.369,"end":171.234,"text":"在8000多位裡面只有125位然後經濟弱勢只有83位然後身心障礙的學生等於說"},{"start":176.707,"end":197.164,"text":"只有17位的學生等於說青少年等於說這些親人朋友來報名這個希望他有夢那希望大家這個國家搭的這個台能夠來協助他也夢那最後呢就說整體來看我們這個比例是甚至你看經濟弱勢跟生意上連1%都沒有"},{"start":198.785,"end":218.633,"text":"我想這個換算起來就其他族群我就講原住民的部分啦我們起碼佔總人口數有2%多嘛但是這樣換算起來好像連一個很基本的門檻都不到那我想是這樣子啦就是說因為主要"},{"start":220.495,"end":237.887,"text":"我刚刚讲这个其实就是说让青年有这个圆梦的计划那我认为在这样的数据其实反映了几个问题就是说在你们的这个计划评选的这个设计上需要更细致的调整"},{"start":238.507,"end":252.849,"text":"例如說申請的流程是否有考慮到這個偏鄉青年的資訊落差啦還有這個評審標準是不是可以注重更多元的一個背景那你們官方文件也鼓勵說是不是能夠優先"},{"start":254.472,"end":274.255,"text":"鼓勵優先考慮弱勢或者沒有海外經驗者這樣你們可以確保就是說比較多元的包容然後但是從這個數據上看是很明顯的不足所以我在這邊強烈建議教育部在明年的這個計劃當中規劃一個有一個一定的比例"},{"start":274.315,"end":276.137,"text":"让他们有一个不要输在起跑点的一个竞争机会"},{"start":293.895,"end":307.827,"text":"這樣不僅能夠提升計畫的包容性也才可以真正落實總統的青年政策讓我們整個台灣有多元的力量在國際上發光而且我不知道這個我們去坊間詢問其實"},{"start":310.029,"end":325.162,"text":"很多人都相當支持這樣的計劃但是如果能夠強化對於這個弱勢的保障我想你們會得到更多的認同不曉得部長對這樣的建議有什麼看法接下來是不是有機會可以再增加這些名額"},{"start":326.303,"end":342.903,"text":"感谢我的一个提醒我想这确实是非常有意义的因为总统这个政见本来他就希望让年轻人特别这些弱势的学生他能够有一些更多的一些机会能够出国去研磨那我们也在第一年的这样一个实际的作用"},{"start":343.823,"end":369.079,"text":"这个运作以后确实也看到这个比例是偏低的那未来在明年里边我们从预算里边从10亿增加到20亿我想怎么样去对偏乡对原住民地区或者一些身心障碍的一些这个青年朋友的一些关照让他们有更友善的一个圆梦的计划包含刚才委员也提到了说比如说有许多的"},{"start":370.26,"end":383.494,"text":"這個對偏鄉弱勢的他們怎麼樣去提計畫怎麼樣去協助他們或者甚至加強宣導我想這個末端的這個部分我們一定要來精進我覺得這對未來讓青年海外的這個嚴重"},{"start":384.875,"end":407.455,"text":"让他们的梦能够实现我想这个是一个非常重要的政策上我想四年百亿的基金不应该只是都市或优势背景青年的专利所以刚刚我们今天提到这个弱势族群的部分也请你们多加强我想这个我们在新的一年里边我们的规划你刚刚还有个问题没有回答就是那个额度上能够怎么样的人民额一定会把它增加"},{"start":408.295,"end":434.89,"text":"我們又希望譬如說在因為經費已經double我們目標來看是至少有個300位以上的這個名額能夠確保我們許多原住民的這個年輕朋友或者經濟弱勢甚至身心這個需要有一些協助的這些的一些年輕朋友能夠讓他們更友善的能夠給他們有一些延末的一些機會好 謝謝部長那你都盡量爭取謝謝"},{"start":437.071,"end":445.287,"text":"好 謝謝陳怡委員那部長請回座就委員會報告因為等一下下午三點鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：好，鄭部長請。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。因為昨天總質詢時間很有限，還有一題跟教育部有關係的來不及問，所以我今天特別來這裡跟您垂詢。今天我想針對教育部推動的「青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫」來請教，這項計畫是落實賴總統政見一個非常重要的政策，主要在幫助15到30歲的青年可以出國拓展國際視野，培養行動力和競爭力。這個計畫分為築夢工場組和海外翱翔組，包括年度旗艦計畫，例如像今年環境永續的主題，經費也相當可觀。我想這個不僅是能夠讓臺灣青年在國際舞臺上展現他們的創造力還有他們的韌性，也可以帶動整個百工百業創新的成長。我個人非常認同這樣子的方向，因為這樣的計畫給年輕人一個圓夢的機會，特別是資源相對不足的這些青年。我想請教一下今年的報名情形，還有比較偏鄉、原住民以及經濟弱勢這些年輕人的報名狀況如何？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的關心，青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫在今年來講確實是創造了許多年輕朋友，從15歲到30歲有非常大的關注。整個報名以今年第一年的辦理，總共有八千八百多位15歲到30歲的年輕朋友、青少年來報名，確實我們看到像原住民、經濟弱勢或者甚至身心障礙的報名比例是偏低的，也就是說原住民大概在八千多位裡面只有125位，經濟弱勢只有83位，然後身心障礙的學生只有17位，等於這些青年朋友來報名，他有夢，希望國家搭的這個舞臺能夠協助他圓夢。最後，整體來看這個比例，經濟弱勢跟身心障礙甚至連1%都沒有，所以我們……"],["陳委員瑩：我就講原住民的部分，我們起碼占總人口數的百分之二點多嘛！但是這樣換算起來好像連很基本的門檻都不到。"],["鄭部長英耀：是的。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣子啦！因為我剛剛講這個其實就是讓青年有圓夢的計畫，我認為這樣的數據其實反映了幾個問題，在你們計畫評選的設計上需要更細緻的調整。例如申請流程是否有考慮到偏鄉青年的資訊落差，還有評審標準是不是可以注重更多元的背景？你們官方文件也鼓勵是不是能夠優先考慮弱勢或者沒有海外經驗者，這樣你們可以確保比較多元的包容，但是從這個數據上看很明顯不足。所以我在這邊強烈建議教育部，在明年的這個計畫當中規劃一定的比例名額，專門提供給原住民、偏鄉弱勢以及低收入戶的青年。例如框個至少數百名，甚至可以更多的名額，讓他們有不要輸在起跑點的競爭機會，這樣不僅能夠提升計畫的包容性，也才可以真正落實總統的青年政策，讓我們整個臺灣有多元的力量在國際上發光。而且我們去坊間詢問，其實很多人都相當支持這樣的計畫，但是如果能夠強化對於弱勢的保障，我想你們會得到更多的認同。不曉得部長對這樣的建議有什麼看法？接下來是不是有機會可以再增加這些名額？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的提醒，這確實是非常有意義的，因為總統的這個政見本來就是希望讓年輕人，特別是這些弱勢的學生能夠有更多的機會出國去圓夢。我們在第一年實際運作以後，確實也看到這個比例是偏低的。未來我們明年的預算從10億增加到20億，怎麼樣對偏鄉、對原住民地區或是身心障礙青年朋友給予一些關照，讓他們有更友善的一個圓夢計畫，包含剛才委員也提到，譬如有許多偏鄉弱勢者，他們怎麼樣提出計畫，要怎麼樣去協助他們，或者甚至加強宣導，我想這一個末端的部分，我們一定要來精進。我覺得未來讓青年能夠海外圓夢，讓他們的夢能夠實現，這是一個非常重要的政策。"],["陳委員瑩：四年百億的基金不應該只是都市或優勢背景青年的專利，所以我們今天提到弱勢族群的部分，也請你們多加強。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在新的一年裡面……"],["陳委員瑩：你剛剛還有個問題沒有回答，就是有關額度上能夠怎麼樣處理。"],["鄭部長英耀：一定會增加名額，因為經費已經double，以目標來看至少可以有300位以上的名額，能夠確保原住民年輕朋友或者經濟弱勢者，甚至是身心方面需要一些協助的年輕朋友，能夠給他們更友善的一些圓夢的機會。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長，請你儘量爭取。謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員。","委員會報告，因為下午3點部長要去參加政黨協商，另外等一下兩位次長可能1點時有事情要離開，所以我們就繼續進行質詢。在場官員或是委員們如果有需要用餐，請到外面去領餐，也不要耽誤到大家中午用餐時間，我們就採取這樣的方式，質詢就繼續進行，部長及相關部會首長就辛苦了。","請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164202","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6e0d80c463ad9d4ab1d8817d393176c43b6741136213cfef692d0a82c07ca83cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:32:45 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麻煩有請部長我們請部長部長好 時間的關係我們很快的進行超市的弊案我相信大家都很關注2024年6月25號這個弊案還在滾雪球的時候"},{"start":31.461,"end":47.267,"text":"農業部對外說你們的政風調查確認行政上面沒有什麼問題我是逐字照錄的這不是我編出來的結果呢結果出來了以後行政上問題一堆"},{"start":48.775,"end":58.905,"text":"行政上問題一堆代表你們那時候次長面對社會大眾質疑的時候的回覆是在聞過是非這件事情農業部事後有沒有檢討要不要給社會大眾一個說法"},{"start":65.908,"end":85.602,"text":"我跟委員報告在整個超支案的過程中從我開始去處理的時候第一個部分我們就成立內部調查小組而且把相關的沒辦法一律我們移送檢調去調查我們有移送檢調所以檢調才有後續的調查這不是我的問題部長請你針對問題回答現在我在質疑的事情是你們農業部說政風調查確認沒有行政問題這個陳述是正確的嗎"},{"start":89.975,"end":116.408,"text":"這個在程序上面來講當初看到的行政調查是如此但是我們覺得說有一些沒辦法解釋跟續產會沒辦法解釋所以才會移請檢調調查我的問題還是一樣啊當初這樣對社會大眾的陳述是正確的嗎是正確的嗎我不知道這句話是在哪個時間點來2024年6月25號沒有辦法記得那麼清楚齁對啊所以我現在問你嘛現在這句話"},{"start":118.801,"end":147.907,"text":"現在從農業部的立場來看這個陳述是正確的嗎你回答不出來沒關係啦從檢調的調查裡面我們農業部的所有的職員並沒有受到任何的所謂的移送來看一下齁看一下齁你們說行政上沒有問題嗎我現在這12345678全部都是全職機關認定出來的這全部都是行政上的問題啊今天我請你"},{"start":148.979,"end":176.681,"text":"提醒你告訴你這個問題我是有個態度啦事前不要聞過是非啦事後都會被檢驗啦我們已經經過檢調調查我們的正式的真正的公務人員並沒有相關的被移送的一個情形好來看一下監察院認定啊張經緯浪費了公帑5億多啊這5億多接下來誰買單"},{"start":179.278,"end":197.929,"text":"我覺得監察院講這句話也沒有特別的根據你的意思是說監察院這樣子的認定是沒有事實基礎就對了相關的法院都還沒有做判決那同樣的相關的當初的這些機案部長請你稍微等一下分兩個部分第一個"},{"start":199.279,"end":222.213,"text":"監察院彈劾張經緯 從你今天回答的狀況來看你是幫張經緯抱不平啊 是嗎我告訴你 法院還沒有判決 這兩個部分嘛監察院歸監察院 法院歸法院嘛我們一樣一樣看清楚嘛我要跟委員報告 監察院等一下啦 你先停一下 監察院"},{"start":223.555,"end":234.128,"text":"彈劾的法律構成要件跟法院現在有沒有定罪的犯罪構成要件是兩回事嘛所以我現在先問你嘛檢察院說他浪費公帑5億多"},{"start":240.485,"end":266.584,"text":"農業部打算怎麼辦他談了他 他就會進到懲戒法院懲戒法院現在還沒有懲戒法院處理的是公務員違法失職要施於什麼懲戒處分的問題嗎有違法失職才有所謂的後面的浪費公帑的問題下一個問題針對求償權的部分消滅時效多久法律上面有不夠了解法律上你不夠了解 回去問清楚這就是我今天質詢的重點"},{"start":267.981,"end":294.416,"text":"你說要等我擔心的是什麼你等到天荒地老消滅時效都完成了你要跟誰求償啊這就是我的point嘛我的重點是他真正的有所謂的不法的情況之下才要去求償那相對的以這個武藝我提醒一下部長齁你可能回去啊看要去問你們的法務單位啊還是要問你們聘請的律師都沒有問題啊"},{"start":296.038,"end":324.038,"text":"在民事上面求償的構成要件跟懲戒法院懲處種類的構成要件跟刑事責任認定有沒有貪污的構成要件全部都不一樣全部混在一起這是第一點第二點求償的構成要件消滅時效從什麼時候開始算從什麼時候開始算搞清楚 第二點因為我很擔心啊五億多沒了過了幾年雲淡風輕"},{"start":325.902,"end":344.511,"text":"然後說那怎麼不求償不好意思消滅時效已完成 這個是我今天質詢的第一個point第二個 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楊瓊發言 邀請部長邀請部長楊元武安"},{"start":20.7,"end":46.021,"text":"非常好 我們還是來討論最近新聞的焦點長榮航空這一個34歲的孫姓空服員這個事件發生讓我們認為在整個過程當中政府的立場跟政府可以怎麼樣的來協助這個是大家非常想聽到的"},{"start":47.369,"end":62.118,"text":"那要求全面的檢討空勤管理的制度跟出勤的一個規範在這一次呢 職災的相關議題當中那工會也特別揭露了在請假"},{"start":63.328,"end":89.297,"text":"尤其是請病假在臨時特休那似乎是設有懲罰性的一個規範而且會影響到考級航班的一個排班甚至特定時段加重處分那致使員工雖然表面上是可以請假但是員工是實際上不敢請假所以如果真的是如此的話他就是違法"},{"start":90.217,"end":116.438,"text":"如果真的是如此企業也沒有盡到保護勞工的一個安全健康所以在這邊首先請教部長目前你們調查的進度到底是如何那我們要怎麼樣去保障空服員的員工的一個權益那政府又要怎麼樣的去落實在整個勞檢方面如何的去保障勞工的一個權益請做說明"},{"start":117.833,"end":142.424,"text":"跟姚委員說明那現在當然在前天那星期一那我們職安署有跟桃園市交檢處那有到長榮來去做這個初步的了解那可是外界也都是希望在這事情上面我們不應該只聽公司一方的說法所以我們接下來也會來約訪"},{"start":143.985,"end":168.226,"text":"其實跟這個當事組員當時可能Downtown的班機的組員或者相關的戀愛相關人包括工會工會本身也希望能夠提到得到確認到底事實是如何然後如何去保障 如何去改進所以本席要請教因為是一個時事議題本席也不希望說大家"},{"start":171.769,"end":188.834,"text":"太長的時間去不知政府在做什麼所以我仍舊希望政府在積極的態度跟立場跟動作能夠讓社會大眾去清楚我們當然要主動而且要很積極主動跟積極是本事要請教因為確實要訪談的人會那你們預估"},{"start":193.035,"end":205.288,"text":"你們預估大概會多久的時間可以給社會大眾給工會給我們這一些這個空服員他們能夠知道一個答案這部分因為訪談的確需要一點時間"},{"start":209.452,"end":231.17,"text":"當然是要時間所以本席才要請問你你們自己設定的時間點到底會在哪裡讓大家可以知道我覺得相關的訪談第一個因為要看約不約得到因為要看那個約的時間因為有些做任何事情必須要有BBI細節的部分我想不是你在說的至少是希望可能兩週吧好不好"},{"start":231.57,"end":260.505,"text":"兩週的時間然後我們來瞭解就是來瞭解相關該約訪的我們盡量來約訪你剛才說了要積極的這個態度那大概我們現在得到一個答案也就是兩週內你會大概有一個方向盡量來約訪有一個方向給社會大眾知道真正的原因以及你政府要怎麼樣去做調整讓我們所有的空服員能夠安心是不是如此"},{"start":261.505,"end":280.572,"text":"就調查跟訪談的部分接下來本席要請教因為這一次的這個治安修正裡頭我們為了要加強建築工程營建過程的一個安全來做把關所以行政院也提出了15條之一的規範"},{"start":282.173,"end":304.053,"text":"要求業主必須在一定規模的工程交互設計或施工時還有就是設計者或者是施工者應該在事前實施風險評估消除危害的根源並採行必要的植栽預防設備跟措施"},{"start":305.094,"end":328.046,"text":"但是本席也接到相關包括建築師公會以及有很多的會員他們有所提出他們提出的也就是說目前如果以行政院版本會觸及到相關的法規尤其是在建築師職業的一個實務跟他們權責是有所抵觸的"},{"start":328.826,"end":349.064,"text":"所以本席也希望因為本席今天也提出了15條之一的一個修正動議也已經送到主席台這邊來那本席也希望在我們在制定任何的一個條文的時候必須要跟相關相關的工會要去好好的去討論"},{"start":350.425,"end":377.146,"text":"因為當你提出的時候建築師會有這樣的一個質疑他們非常負責任但是問題是你在施工的這個期間施工的這個期間那包括甚至還要包括到他施工營造業者他所聘請的這個勞工甚至外籍義工這一些都包含在他的監督規範之內"},{"start":378.547,"end":389.18,"text":"那如果我們來看建築師的相關法規是建築師經過業者的需求去設計規範提出建造"},{"start":393.926,"end":423.028,"text":"建築師接下來的重點工作是什麼依照我們的法規也就是你必須你必須你必須要嚴格的去執行他所畫出來的圖說到底有沒有在營建商的時候他在施工的時候有沒有依照政府所規範他們設計出來政府所認可的建造的時候的一個"},{"start":424.246,"end":444.491,"text":"他的圖說要去執行到位要去執行到位所以在建築師公會或者是這個他們也提出提出意見所以他們有提出的相關那本席也提出在我們的條文的第15條之一也就是"},{"start":446.811,"end":468.681,"text":"這個我們必須要提出事業單位將一定規模以上之工程交互規劃設計時應委託勞工安全衛生專業依其工程的特性去分析潛在的施工危害這個是本席以下這些所提出的15條之一"},{"start":470.462,"end":493.572,"text":"我要請教部長因為建築師公會有這麼大的一個聲音出來本席首先在你回答之前我希望我們要有這個營建的安全性這個是非常的重要而且這個作品也必須要能夠如實如期的去完成這是我們最終的目標"},{"start":494.853,"end":521.392,"text":"但是在整個調整的過程當中是否有跟相關執行者去充分討論這是本席非常重視的必須要相關單位好好的去討論能夠達成一個共識這樣子在未來你公布你執行的方案的時候才能夠真正去落實 讚不讚同這樣的一個一個過程流程跟方式"},{"start":522.273,"end":537.133,"text":"我跟嚴偉說明很清楚也就是你認同是這樣子的一個邏輯我先表達第一個15條之一這一次在我們的修法裡面是非常非常關鍵的條文"},{"start":539.036,"end":556.102,"text":"那在這個條文裡面它的責任基本上是框在業主身上的所以可能建築師或者是設計者不用太擔心因為這是框在業主身上但這個條文要表達的是一個工程它在前面的規劃跟設計階段它就要做安全風險的分析"},{"start":557.583,"end":572.26,"text":"那比較能夠讓在執行或者是在施作的時候能夠按照這個安全風險分析去做相關的風險管理跟執行因為我們的確看到很多的案例如果在前面的規劃跟設計階段不具有安全"},{"start":573.862,"end":594.115,"text":"風險設計的概念的時候有的時候會讓後續的執行非常的困難或者是承擔很大的風險而這個想法跟概念也是現在很多國家它去做這個職安的管理的時候非常重要的部分就是把它有點是它是源頭的溯源在規劃跟設計的階段就把風險管理的部分給規劃好"},{"start":595.256,"end":610.677,"text":"在後續執行跟施工的時候才能夠比較大程度的避免風險這部分很重要可是他的責任是框在業主身上的所以相關的設計者規劃者不用太擔心所以我們的條文應該是我們是從這個角度來去設計這個條文的"},{"start":612.441,"end":637.175,"text":"好 謝謝部長你的說辭你請他們不用太 設計者不用去太擔心但是他們現在是擔心的這也就是剛才我跟本席跟你討論的當你要發布一個政策或者是你的調整那你必須跟相關的這個執行者 相關的工會好好去討論我們會來跟工會好好說明我們的這個概念因為今天"},{"start":642.058,"end":660.636,"text":"剛剛本席特別問了主席我們今天只處理到第二條所以這個等於是在整個條文裡頭如果歸列是在第六條所以換句話說我們還有一些時間剛剛部長您也承諾會跟工會來做討論我也希望在本席所提出的15條之一"},{"start":662.057,"end":679.834,"text":"能夠得到行政部門的一個同意我們好好的達成這樣的共識讓我們在整個營建部分能夠更加的安全而且職權在相關的法律面它是完整的 而且是清楚的"},{"start":681.008,"end":694.734,"text":"我們可以在這個逐條的時候那針對這個條文他設計的原意我們可以來做好好的審議討論好好的審議討論這是當然但是您剛才說了會跟工會好好的來討論是來討論對不對好加油好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時21分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長備詢。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員午安。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們還是討論最近新聞的焦點，就是長榮航空34歲孫姓空服員的這個事件發生之後，政府的立場什麼？可以怎麼協助？這是大家非常想聽到的，包括要求全面檢討空勤管理制度和出勤規範。這次職災的相關議題當中，工會也特別揭露，在請假的部分，尤其是對請病假、臨時特休似乎設有懲罰性的規範，而且會影響到考績及航班排班，甚至是特定時段加重處分，致使員工雖然表面上可以請假，實際上卻不敢請假。","如果真的如此的話，它就是違法。如果真的是如此，企業也沒有盡到保護勞工安全健康的責任。首先請教部長，目前你們調查的進度到底如何？我們要怎麼保障空服員的員工權利？政府又要怎麼落實，在勞檢方面如何保障勞工的權利？請說明。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，前天星期一職安署和桃園市勞檢處到長榮初步了解，因為外界希望在這件事情上面，不應該只聽公司一方的說法，所以我們接下來也會約訪當事組員，可能是當趟班機的組員，或者是相關的利害相關人，包括工會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：工會本身也希望能夠確認事實到底如何？如何保障？如何改進？所以本席要請教，因為這是一個時事議題，本席也不希望這段時間大家不知道政府在做什麼，所以希望政府以積極的態度和立場、動作，讓社會大眾了解真相。"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然要主動，而且要很積極。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，要主動、積極。所以本席要請教……"],["洪部長申翰：因為要訪談的人當中有一些利害相關人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們預估大概需要多久的時間，可以給社會大眾、工會和空服員一個答案及方向？"],["洪部長申翰：因為訪談確實需要一點時間啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然需要時間，所以本席才要請問你，你們自己設定的時間點到底是何時？要讓大家知道政府有在做事。"],["洪部長申翰：相關的訪談，第一個要看約不約的到，因為要看約的時間、因為有些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，做任何事情都必須有KPI，細節的部分不應該由你說明。"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望至少是兩週，好不好？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩週的時間？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們來了解。相關該約訪的，我們會儘量約訪。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你剛才說要以積極的態度面對嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們現在得到一個答案，兩週內你們會有一個方向。"],["洪部長申翰：會儘量約訪。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要有一個方向，讓社會大眾知道真正的原因，以及政府未來要怎麼調整，讓所有空服員能夠安心，是不是如此？"],["洪部長申翰：就調查和訪談的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，兩週內嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教的是，這次的職安法修正案，為了加強建築工程營建過程的安全把關，所以行政院提出第十五條之一的規範，要求業主必須在一定規模的工程交付設計或施工時，由設計者或者施工者在事前實施風險評估，消除危害的根源，並採行必要的職災預防設備和措施。但是本席也接到相關反映，包括建築師公會以及很多會員提出，行政院版本會觸及相關法規，尤其是建築師執業的實務，這和他們的權責有所牴觸，所以本席今天也提出第十五條之一的修正動議，已經送到主席台。","本席希望在制定任何條文時，必須和相關公會好好討論，當你們提出草案之後，如果建築師有這樣的質疑，就是他們非常負責任，但問題是在施工期間，如果營造業者所聘請的勞工，甚至是外籍移工，這些都包含在他的監督規範之內，對他們也不甚公平。我們來看建築師的相關法規，建築師聽取業者的需求進行設計規範並提出建照申請，接下來的重點工作是什麼？因為依照法規，你必須嚴格執行他畫出來的圖說，但到底營建商在施工的時候有沒有依照政府的規範，依照他們設計出來的，將政府認可的建照圖說執行到位？所以建築師公會也提出意見。","本席所提的第十五條之一規定，事業單位將一定規模以上之工程交付規劃、設計時，應委託勞工安全衛生專業依其工程特性，分析潛在施工危害，這是本席提出的第十五條之一。本席要請教部長，因為建築師公會有這麼大的異議，在你回答之前，本席先說明，本席也認為營建的安全性非常重要，而且這個作品也必須如實、如期完成，這是我們最終的目標。但是在調整的過程當中，是否有和相關執行者充分討論？這是本席非常重視的。你們必須和相關單位好好討論、達成共識，未來公布執行方案的時候才能夠真正落實。你們贊不贊同這樣的流程和方式？請說明。"],["洪部長申翰：很清楚，在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是你認同這樣的邏輯？"],["洪部長申翰：我先表達一下，第一個，這次的修法，第十五條之一是非常、非常關鍵的條文，在這個條文裡面，它的責任基本上是框在業主身上，所以建築師或者設計者不用太擔心，因為這是框在業主身上。這個條文要表達的是，一個工程在前面的規劃和設計階段就要做安全風險分析，在執行或者施作的時候，按照這個安全風險分析去做相關風險管理和執行。","因為我們的確看到很多案例，如果前面的規劃和設計階段不具有安全風險設計的概念，有時候會讓後續的執行非常困難，或者是承擔很大的風險。這個想法和概念也是現在很多國家做職安管理時非常重要的部分，有點像是源頭的溯源，在規劃和設計的階段就把風險管理的部分規劃好，後續執行和施工的時候，才能夠比較大程度的避免風險，這部分很重要。它的責任是框在業主身上，所以相關的設計者、規劃者不用太擔心，我們是從這個角度設計這個條文。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長的說明。你請設計者不用太擔心，但他們現在擔心的，也就是剛才本席和你討論的，當你們要發布一個政策或者要做什麼調整時，必須和相關執行者、相關公會好好討論。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會向公會好好說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這就是重點。剛才本席特別問了主席，我們今天只處理到第二條，這部分在整個條文當中是歸列在第六條，換句話說，我們還有一些時間，剛剛部長也承諾會和公會討論。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這就是我們修法的原意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席也希望提出的第十五條之一能夠得到行政部門同意，達成這樣的共識，讓營建能夠更加安全，而且職權在相關的法律面是完整、清楚的。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們可以在逐條審查的時候，針對這個條文設計的原意，好好審議討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然要好好審議討論，但是您剛才也說了，會和公會好好討論，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是，沒問題，當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，加油。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。報告委員會，我們重新宣告：在牛煦庭委員詢答後休息用餐，下午一點繼續開會。","下一位請林楚茵委員。林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164200","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164200","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db682e5b49338add1b2bc2e7a8918bc9e77b6741136213cfef67b98ec381cd5a4705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:05:47 - 12:20:53","影片長度":"00:15:06","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T12:05:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T12:20:53+08:00","duration":906,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.953468750000003,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.509718750000001,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.887843750000002,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.79909375,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.18284375,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.27346875,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.74846875000003,"end":242.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.02284375,"end":308.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.19784375,"end":366.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.94846875,"end":312.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.61784375,"end":321.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.67409375,"end":375.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.22971875,"end":389.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.62409375000004,"end":390.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.41284375000004,"end":396.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.84659375,"end":427.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.18346875000003,"end":428.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.35221875,"end":428.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.58846875,"end":504.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.55909375000005,"end":481.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.72846875000005,"end":543.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.1272187500001,"end":567.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.94721875,"end":563.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.24596875,"end":622.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.5959687500001,"end":638.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.68221875,"end":647.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.4565937500001,"end":777.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.93471875,"end":786.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.54096875,"end":790.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.04659375,"end":795.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.94034375,"end":805.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.91346875,"end":814.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.2665937500001,"end":829.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.7240937500001,"end":848.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":848.7590937500001,"end":853.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":853.75409375,"end":877.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":877.76721875,"end":882.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.4584687500001,"end":883.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":884.0109687500001,"end":890.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":891.2334687500002,"end":892.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":892.8872187500001,"end":899.1140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":897.44346875,"end":898.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":902.3372187500001,"end":907.9734687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.003,"end":13.597,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們還是麻煩黃部長來 部長"},{"start":26.557,"end":40.351,"text":"你好不好意思都沒有時間讓您稍微喘一口氣喝個水不過因為因應這一次長榮空服員的憾事大家都覺得非常遺憾因為是一個年輕的生命"},{"start":41.071,"end":57.487,"text":"那也激發了社會對於公司管理的線路跟合理性的討論早上很多委員都已經有跟你討論這些事情不過還是從制度上我們必須要來做深入的了解從一個個案來看整體的制度"},{"start":57.927,"end":81.938,"text":"特別是在勞工請假權益的保障還有禁止不利益待遇的強度跟範圍應該怎麼來做處理這部分部長其實也是專家所以就利用這個機會來跟您做就教我相信大家在每天非常繁忙的工作的同時對於如何能夠有好的這些假期的處理"},{"start":82.818,"end":101.195,"text":"讓他的這個整個身心可以有效的回復是非常重要而且是需要大家一起來關注那身為這個勞動部的這個最大的負責人我相信對於這些勞工的請假應該是非常的關注那針對這個勞動的法規我們也了解"},{"start":104.318,"end":123.872,"text":"在勞工請假過程裡面我們目前有不同的法源的規定包括在性平法上面有針對於生理假等等的有做一些相關的安排尤其在禁止不利益的待遇保障上面其實做了非常強烈的規範要求雇主不得拒絕"},{"start":125.193,"end":145.194,"text":"還有在這個接受這樣的這個請求的時候不能夠用其他的方式來讓這樣的請假的美意或者是這些假期的美意得到了影響包括說不能夠當作缺勤而影響獎金考積等等這個是我們可以看到性平工作法裡面第4條對21條做了非常完整的規範"},{"start":146.195,"end":161.687,"text":"那針對勞基法第3條還有這個請假規則裡面有不同的價別可是呢它這個針對於競逐不利的部分呢它所要求的就沒有那麼高只能要求說不得扣發這個全刑獎金"},{"start":162.527,"end":186.241,"text":"那針對於另外的就是以今天這個個案為例他是有生病那生病的時候他需要請假的話那目前針對這個勞基法第13條所看到的就是普通傷病假來做調理那這個部分其實目前並沒有任何有關你禁止不利益的這些保障的部分只有要求說沒有超過30天的話公知責辦發給這樣的這個請假的這個結果所以"},{"start":191.324,"end":209.125,"text":"針對這樣的問題我們覺得似乎從制度上面從這個法條上面我們必須要有重新來省思如何能夠讓這個禁止不利益的免疫可以落實到未來在各方面的請假或者是有下的時候可以提供更好的一些處理模式那我們可以從"},{"start":211.107,"end":227.983,"text":"今年的這個10月10號開始根據目前那總統在健康台灣推動委員會的指示之下所辦理的一個方式就是針對公務人員他可以根據這個規定來請不管家庭照顧假還有增加一個身心調適假"},{"start":229.524,"end":246.453,"text":"每一個人可以每年三天的這個假期那這個部分的美意就在於這個併入試駕的過程裡面他不需要檢護任何證明機關不得拒絕不得不利的部分這個意思就是說對於禁止不利益的這些處分其實是有達到最高的規格"},{"start":247.373,"end":275.532,"text":"所以相歸來講未來勞動部在這方面能不能夠有參考公務人員新這個三天的這個新條市價的政策來提供我們的這個勞工朋友也有相關的這個可行性那當然這個部分可能會有不同的形式比如說這個是要一個新的條市價那還是要從病價裡面去做框出或者是從市價裡面去框出那如果有好的立法技術那這個強度"},{"start":277.413,"end":293.909,"text":"是不是也要如同這個公務人員的保障一樣那到底一年要幾天 當然天數少就可以比照公務人員如果天數多 相對這個保護強度是不是要有效的調控那這部分不知道部長目前有沒有相關的想法"},{"start":295.089,"end":315.026,"text":"根本說沒有的確這關於這一次的事件也引發了社會對於尤其是病假病假其實相關的權益會不會有一些比較制度性的這個阻礙的這個問題那我想我還是表達幾個部分第一個部分是"},{"start":316.767,"end":342.641,"text":"如果勞工請病假是被雇主拒絕的話我想這就是直接違反勞基法那這就是最高最高世界規模如果高違反人數高或者是清潔嚴重的話是最高就是150萬那第二個是我們其實也在這段時間也是在檢視比方說我們看到比方說像全勤獎金其實在一些法院的判決裡面其實都已經把它視為是勞工工資的一部分"},{"start":342.961,"end":365.949,"text":"那如果是勞工工資的一部分的話那這個勞工請病假就被沒收整個月的這個全勤獎金其實我們認為這是不合理的狀況所以這部分我們也在研議一些用比較制度性的方式來做保障那針對這部分那至於其他的這個不利現在可能在講不利對待的部分因為不利對待的"},{"start":367.209,"end":389.948,"text":"范畴其實蠻大的樣態其實很多那請病假的樣態其實也蠻多的那就其他的部分我想我們也是希望能夠在一個為事情我們的同仁在一個原則然後那這個原則但就是說我們的確是不希望說勞工生病卻要硬撐著不休息這個事情還被"},{"start":391.496,"end":412.226,"text":"公司的制度來做制度性的鼓勵這是這個事情我們也不樂見所以在這個概念下面是不是來檢視我們相對應在病假跟現在被認知為不利對待的這個這個權利上面是不是有再多一點調整的空間不要好像變成我們是"},{"start":413.146,"end":426.902,"text":"都把這種明明該請生病到該請病假了卻還硬撐著上班然後變成是一種對企業付出的一個正面的效益或績效其實我覺得這大概不符合社會的期待甚至也可能未來會製造更多的問題"},{"start":428.223,"end":450.629,"text":"是的確因為社會整個情況在不同的轉變之下如何能夠針對我們老公朋友有更友善的一些做法這個是要麻煩部長這邊持續的關注其實從這個個案裡面我們也知道他在這個上期之前因為有一些身體狀況需要臨時請特休等等的狀況其實是對於如何"},{"start":452.05,"end":465.705,"text":"幫助讓他在請假的過程裡面是更為安心的所以剛剛部長也提到範圍跟強度到底要用到哪裡那這個真的是很需要好好的一個了解跟規範那包括未來如果有類似的狀況臨時請特休"},{"start":468.588,"end":484.942,"text":"我們知道像空服員他們的工作時間剛好是在其他人有假期要去做出國旅遊或是其他安排的時候他們剛好要出行最多事後如果國人假出行以後的調整等等的"},{"start":485.622,"end":504.147,"text":"這個能不能夠也進入到這個這個這樣不利一代的部分可以減到最低還有任何的法定價別是不是都要列入相關的規範這部分可能就是要麻煩部裡面做一些研議那這個研議看能不能在一個月給我們相關的到委員會給相關的報告"},{"start":504.795,"end":533.477,"text":"跟網友說明的確比方說像特休那特休當然就是完全要給付工資而且不能也是一樣這個選擇權完全是在勞工手上只要僱主拒絕的話那這就是就直接違法那剛剛網友講這個狀況或者是講到長榮的狀況那我們會整體的來去做一些評估啦那可是確實我們現在看到長榮的一些狀況我覺得他當然有規範性的問題裡面也有是他們管理文化上面的狀況"},{"start":534.978,"end":541.442,"text":"那這個管理文化的狀況如果沒有辦法再做一些調整的話其實我們也很擔心類似的狀況會"},{"start":545.148,"end":567.606,"text":"會一直有狀況會發生所以這是為什麼我們很希望我們也很支持就是希望公司必須要跟公會真的好好坐下來協商那因為就是應該面對尤其是我們基層的基礎員他很實質的身體上面的安全上面的需求我想這是我們的立場"},{"start":568.356,"end":592.953,"text":"是 我相信白宮白夜都有它特別的文化各方面的需求所以這部分就麻煩部裡面持續的來做研議那再過來就是有關於這個目前到底我們有沒有比較完整的數據知道我們這些勞工朋友在使用病假的狀況的調查因為我們發現目前在部裡面有113年勞工生活跟就業狀況調查的報告"},{"start":594.534,"end":621.702,"text":"那這個報這份報告只針對於加班還有這個特別休假情形做相關的這個問卷調查去得到每個勞工他在一年裡面可能在假期上面的運用可是好像沒有病假這個欄位那我們知道現在的這些生活比較緊張或相關的問題所以在未來是不是可以把病假的狀況調查也列為一個每一個年度的這個調查內容"},{"start":624.172,"end":647.43,"text":"因為網友有關心這個事情所以我們有回去看了一下的確現在目前只針對特休那我認為把病假加入到使用狀況調查的一個項目跟欄位裡面我想我們這部分我覺得我們應該是可以來做的好那就麻煩這一部分你能夠把它加強進來麻煩這個部長先回座休息最後一個問題我來請教一下民航局何局長"},{"start":651.502,"end":671.569,"text":"如果能夠改善我們這個像今天碰到的這個困境因為我們也知道根據這個AOR第二三一條的規定裡面當這個飛機在飛航之前如果有組員發生這些問題的時候那機長是有權責來做一些處置"},{"start":672.849,"end":701.096,"text":"那如果在飛行當中主員因為不管是疲勞疾病或者是相關因素的時候那如果嚴重的影響到執行的權責的能力的時候機長可以終止飛航跟就近於降落做必要處置這個是我們看到的AOR目前對於主員的這些不管是身體狀況或相關問題的時候機長所做的處置的一些可以依行的規範"},{"start":702.576,"end":721.922,"text":"當然他是有他的職責可是他的專業能不能做這樣的判斷其實是當然除了說他這個機長本身持續去加強這個本質學能以外如何能夠有更好的評估機制我相信這一個案件應該可以給民進黨局這邊交通部這邊做一個參考所以"},{"start":722.282,"end":750.086,"text":"如果能夠改善機前的檢查評估機制這個未來能不能夠在交通部民調局的組織之下召集相關的部會或學會一起來研議包括剛所提到的有關於這個上機前的評估能不能夠更具體那機上緊急狀況的處置要有一定的SOP而不是請機長來做一些直接判斷做處置這樣子而已"},{"start":750.632,"end":777.385,"text":"那第三項我們也知道現在MedLink其實是一個很可以引用的一個新的科技那將來有沒有必要把它變成是一個必要的服務的內容還有最後一項AOR的相關規定目前機長的權責跟他的專業之間有沒有必要做相關這些內容的修訂或者是做研議那這部分不知道何局長你的高見如何"},{"start":777.981,"end":804.592,"text":"好謝謝委員的提示我想在這個剛剛講到的機前的上機前的檢查那因為我們其實有另外一個條文就是說上機前的如果是民用航空運輸業因為這邊提的是普通航空業那普通航空業我們講的是直升機所以這邊提的就是說直升機他如何去做處理那如果是這個民用航空運輸業就是指長榮華航這一種"},{"start":806.453,"end":829.091,"text":"機長的部分有機長的處理那後艙的空服組員的話依照這個相關規定的手冊的話就是由組員相互確認那事務長要做最後的處理上機前的一個檢查那當然這個部分我們也可以再來研議就是說上機前的交互檢查確認組員的身體健康狀況我們可以參考委員的意見再來看看如何來精進他"},{"start":829.811,"end":848.297,"text":"那第二个就是说这个有关紧急医疗的处置的部分因为机上的话如果是其实如果是打MairLink这一些其实是会透过空中查询然后由机组员去做处理那机长是不会去涉及这一些处理的"},{"start":848.897,"end":871.916,"text":"那Mainlink的話目前來講它現在確實因為它是一種選擇性的服務就是說由航空公司跟這個去做一個應該是說採買這樣的系統那目前我們來講長榮華航跟新宇都有這樣的一個服務設施那主要是用在長城線因為長城的這個飛行比較遠所以有需要這樣的一個服務設施"},{"start":872.837,"end":898.063,"text":"那至於是不是有需要來修訂相關AOA規定的部分我想這個這個案件我們會整體來看整個華航其實主要是在一個執行過程中這個整個通報的機制包含他處理的機制包含組員的教育訓練等等那這個部分我們會請競速來做一個檢討好那這個檢討還有研議報告一個月可以給我們中南委員會來做參考好謝謝"},{"start":902.406,"end":907.337,"text":"好 謝謝王偉 謝謝局長一個月 謝謝委員會在這邊做一個宣告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":863,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時5分）好，謝謝主席。還是麻煩洪部長。"],["主席：來，部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員，午安。"],["王委員正旭：你好。不好意思，都沒有時間讓你稍微喘口氣、喝個水。不過這一次長榮空服員的憾事，大家都覺得非常遺憾，畢竟是一個年輕的生命，也激發了社會對於公司管理的限度跟合理性的討論。早上很多委員都已經有跟你討論這些事情，不過我們還是必須從制度上深入瞭解。從這個個案來看整體的制度，特別是在勞工請假權益的保障，還有禁止不利益待遇的強度跟範圍，應該怎麼來處理。這部分部長其實也是專家，所以利用這個機會來跟您就教。大家在每天非常繁忙工作的同時對於如何能夠好好處理假期，讓身心可以有效回復，非常重要，而且需要大家一起來關注，身為勞動部最大的負責人，對於勞工的請假，應該是非常關注，針對勞動的法規，我們也了解，在勞工請假過程裡面，目前有不同的法源的規定，包括在性平法上面有針對生理假等等，做了一些相關的安排，尤其在禁止不利益待遇的保障上面，做了非常強烈的規範，要求雇主不得拒絕，還有在接受這樣的請求的時候，不能夠用其他方式讓這樣請假的美意或者是這些假期的美意受到影響，包括不能夠當作缺勤而影響獎金、考績等等，我們可以看到性平工作法第十四條至第二十一條做了非常完整的規範。勞基法第四十三條及勞工請假規則裡面有不同的假別，可是針對禁止不利益待遇的部分，要求就沒有那麼高，只能要求不得扣發全勤獎金。以今天這個個案為例，這個人是生病需要請假，目前在勞基法第四十三條所看到的，就是依普通傷病假來處理，目前並沒有任何有關於禁止不利益對待的保障，只有要求沒有超過30天的話，公司折半發給，這就是請假的結果。針對這樣的問題，從制度上面、從法條上面，我們必須要重新來省思，如何能夠讓禁止不利益對待的美意落實到未來在各方面的請假或給假的時候，可以提供更好的處理模式。從今年10月10日開始，根據目前賴總統在健康臺灣推動委員會的指示之下所辦理的一個方式，就是公務人員可以根據規定來請假，除了家庭照顧假以外，還有增加身心調適假，每個人可以每年享有三天的身心調適假，這個部分的美意就在於可併入事假，不需要檢附任何證明，機關不得拒絕，也不得有不利益的對待，意思就是說，對於禁止不利益的處分，其實是有達到最高的規格，所以相對來講，未來勞動部在這方面能不能夠參考公務人員新增三天身心調適假的政策，提供勞工朋友相同的待遇？當然這個部分可能會有不同的形式，比如是要設一個新的調適假，還是要從病假裡面去框出，或者是從事假裡面去框出，如果有好的立法技術，那這個強度是不是也要如同公務人員的保障一樣？到底一年要幾天？當然天數少就可以比照公務人員，如果天數多，相對的保護強度可以稍微有效地調控，這部分不知道部長目前有沒有相關的想法？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這一次的事件也引發了社會對於勞工權益的討論，尤其是討論病假相關的權益會不會有一些比較制度性的阻礙的問題，我還是表達幾個部分，第一個部分是，如果勞工請病假被雇主拒絕的話，我想這就是直接違反勞基法了，如果事業規模大、違反人數高，或者是情節嚴重的話，最高就是罰150萬元。","第二個，我們在這段時間也是在檢視，比方全勤獎金，其實在一些法院的判決裡面，都已經把它視為是勞工工資的一部分。如果是勞工工資的一部分的話，勞工請病假就被沒收整個月的全勤獎金，我們認為這是不合理的狀況，所以針對這部分，我們也在研議用比較制度性的方式來保障。至於不利益對待的部分，因為不利益對待的範疇其實滿大的，樣態很多，請病假的樣態也滿多的，我也是請我們同仁本著一個原則，這個原則當然就是我們的確不希望勞工生病卻要硬撐著不休息，這個事情還被公司用制度來做制度性的鼓勵，這個事情我們也不樂見，所以在這個概念下，檢視病假跟現在被認知為不利益對待的部分，在相關權利上面，是不是有再多一點調整的空間？勞工明明生病到該請病假了，卻還硬撐著上班，變成是一種對企業付出的正面效益或績效，我覺得這大概不符合社會的期待，甚至可能未來會製造更多的問題。"],["王委員正旭：是，的確。社會情況在不同的轉變之下，如何能夠針對勞工朋友有更友善的做法，這個要麻煩部長持續關注。其實從這個個案裡面，我們也知道，這位空服員在上機之前，因為身體有些狀況需要臨時請特休，這類狀況應如何幫助，讓他在請假的過程裡面更為安心？剛剛部長有提到範圍跟強度到底要用到哪裡，這個真的是很需要好好地瞭解跟規範。未來如果有類似的狀況，勞工臨時請特休，那我們也知道，空服員的工作剛好是其他人有假期要出國旅遊或是做其他安排的時候出勤最多，如果要請假或出勤以後的調整，這個部分能不能夠進入到不利益待遇的部分，可以減到最低？還有任何的法定假別，是不是都要列入相關的規範？這部分可能就是要麻煩部裡面做一些研議，那這個研議看能不能在一個月給委員會相關的報告？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，特休當然就是完全要給付工資，而且也是一樣，選擇權完全是在勞工手上，只要雇主拒絕的話，那就直接違法。剛剛王委員講到的狀況，或者長榮的狀況，我們會整體地來做一些評估，可是我們現在看到長榮的一些狀況，我覺得當然有規範性的問題，裡面也有他們管理文化上面的狀況，這個管理文化的狀況如果沒有辦法再做一些調整，其實我們也很擔心類似的狀況會一直發生，所以這是為什麼我們很希望，也很支持公司必須要跟工會真的好好坐下來協商，應該面對員工，尤其是基層的機組員很實質身體上和安全上的需求，這是我們的立場。"],["王委員正旭：是，我相信百工百業都有其特別的文化及各方面的需求，所以這部分就麻煩部裡面持續地研議。","再過來，目前到底我們有沒有比較完整的數據，可以知道勞工朋友使用病假的狀況的調查？因為我們發現，目前在部裡面有113年勞工生活及就業狀況調查的報告，這份報告只針對於加班和特別休假的情形做相關的問卷調查，得到每一個勞工在一年裡面假期的運用，可是好像沒有「病假」這個欄位。我們知道，現在生活比較緊張或有相關的問題，所以在未來是不是可以把病假的狀況調查也列為每一個年度的調查內容。"],["洪部長申翰：因為王委員有關心這個事情，所以我們回去看了一下，目前的確只是針對特休調查，那我認為把病假加入到使用狀況調查的項目跟欄位裡面，我們應該是可以來做的。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩你們，這一部分也能夠加進來。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員正旭：麻煩部長先回座休息。","最後一個問題，我要請教一下民航局何局長，如何能夠改善今天碰到的這個困境？因為我們也知道，根據AOR第二百三十一條規定，當飛機在飛航之前，如果有組員發生問題的時候，機長有權責來做一些處置。如果在飛行當中，組員因為疲勞、疾病或各種因素而嚴重影響執行權責能力的時候，機長可以中止飛航並就近降落，做必要的處置，這個是我們看到的AOR目前對於組員身體狀況不佳或發生相關問題的時候，機長應做處置的相關規範，當然機長是有他的職責，可是以他的專業能不能做這樣的判斷？除了機長本身持續加強本職學能以外，如何能夠有更好的評估機制？我相信這個案件應該可以給民航局及交通部參考。如何能夠改善上機前的檢查評估機制？未來能不能夠在交通部、民航局的主持之下，召集相關的部會或學會一起來研議，包括剛剛所提到的有關上機前的評估能不能夠更具體，機上緊急狀況的處置要有一定的SOP，而不是請機長來做一些直接判斷、處置而已。第三項，我們也知道，現在Medlink是一個可以引用的新科技，將來有沒有必要把它變成一個必要的服務內容？還有最後一項，AOR的規定中，關於機長的權責跟他的專業，有沒有必要就這些內容進行修訂或研究？針對這部分，何局長的高見為何？"],["何局長淑萍：好，謝謝委員的提示。委員剛剛講到上機前的檢查，其實有另外一個條文，如果是民用航空運輸業，因為這邊提的是普通航空業，而普通航空業講的是直升機，所以這邊提的是直升機如何處理。如果是民用航空運輸業，就是指長榮、華航這一種，機長的部分有機長的處理，空服組員依照相關規定的手冊，就是由組員相互確認，事務長要做最後的處理，以上是上機前的檢查。那當然這個部分我們也可以再來研議上機前的交互檢查，確認組員的身體健康狀況，我們可以參考委員的意見，再來看看如何精進。","第二個就是緊急醫療處置的部分，機上的話，如果是打Medlink這一些，其實是會透過空中查詢，然後由機組員處理，機長是不會去涉及這些處理的。目前來講，因為Medlink是一種選擇性的服務，由航空公司去採買這樣的系統，目前長榮、華航和星宇都有這樣的服務設施，主要是用在長程線，因為長程的飛行距離比較遠，所以需要這樣的服務設施。至於是不是有需要修訂相關AOR規定？這個案件我們會就整體來看，其實長榮的問題主要是在執行過程中的通報機制，包含處理的機制、組員的教育訓練等等，這個部分我們會做盡速檢討。"],["王委員正旭：這份檢討和研議報告一個月內送到委員會參考。"],["何局長淑萍：是，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝局長，相關報告在一個月內送來，謝謝。先作宣告：待會兒羅廷瑋委員詢答結束之後，先休息到一點讓各位用餐。因為等一下質詢完畢之後，法案宣讀需要兩個多鐘頭，所以也要讓議事組人員有用餐的機會。法案開始進入逐條審查時，相關權責單位留下，其他人可以先行離開，好不好？現在繼續詢答。","請楊瓊瓔委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164199","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164199","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db67856a4d0e5715a431d8817d393176c43b6741136213cfef6a12d4359cc2b37275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"12:26:13 - 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我們有請陳部長我們請陳部長委員好"},{"start":16.636,"end":38.946,"text":"部長好部長這個在災防法裡面有關於這個煙色虎還有土石流的監測其實是農業部的責任那本席就看到在審計部的報告113年他還指出來現在還有19處大規模的崩塌潛勢區存在那這當中我也看到像我的故鄉嘉義縣"},{"start":40.386,"end":62.857,"text":"他也高達有三處那這邊他提出一個問題就是說現在農業部針對這一些大規模崩塌的潛勢區你們的這一些預備的這個撤離的計畫或避難的處所好像準備的計畫都是還不夠周全都有值得改善之處那部長你自己知道嗎這19處你們現在有再積極的改善嗎"},{"start":66.407,"end":92.464,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們現在統計其實在1745個土石流潛勢區裡面大概有79處不只是19處79處裡面有它的大規模潛勢區的崩塌那土石流可能一旦劃入了以後其實最重要就是它的下游的保全對象的疏散測離的計畫沒錯特別重要的是保全的對象有沒有保全的清澈是然後另外它的疏散的"},{"start":93.425,"end":119.891,"text":"路線然後還有後續的本身的這些疏散收容安置的地方那這個部分我想一旦我們框定了以後我們就會跟後面的保全對象去做有系統的去溝通希望他們能夠建立第一個及早建立保全對象這個是最重要才知道說萬一真的發生了以後因為土石離屋崩塌只有短短的時間就必須要很快這個我想我們會來加強跟中下游的居民來溝通"},{"start":121.304,"end":144.819,"text":"這個部分進一步本期要請教就是說審計部的報告他指出來這19處你們還有待改善那我要問的是事實上從這一次的花蓮花蓮的這個災難當中看到這種複合型的他從上游到河川到最後住宅你認為農業部你們在這邊扮演的角色你們在這個災難撤離的部分你們比較專業還是內政部比較專業"},{"start":147.381,"end":164.173,"text":"你們兩個角色有沒有重疊的地方我想在平常的時候我們針對我們的目標物像映射壺的目標物我們會做一些監測然後監測完了以後我們會根據當地的現在的雨量跟它的溶水量會有一些不同的風險"},{"start":165.234,"end":188.954,"text":"那這個風險如果達到某個程度的時候就會造成下游的影響那我們就會把這個訊息傳給地方政府傳給鄉鎮工作那一旦如果遇到像台方的話就有中央應變中心成立那中央應變中心成立了以後這個資訊就進到應變中心裡面去做資料就內政部會接管大概是用這樣的方式然後做決策以後經過大家討論以後"},{"start":189.995,"end":216.545,"text":"如果是土石流就你自己要從頭負責到尾了按照現在摘方法是這樣子一般土石流發生的部分也是因為有颱風豪雨的部分都會成立應變中心那應變中心有一個疏散測離組那我們提供這樣的一個訊息畫色的黃色或紅色警戒以後那這些區域裡面疏散測離組的就會去開始去針對地方政府他的應變計畫裡面開始去做疏散所以你負責到哪一個階段"},{"start":217.145,"end":231.918,"text":"我們負責就是預警以後預警之後就交出去了可能的疏散範圍的離定以後然後相對的這個資料如果應變中心成立我們提交到應變中心然後根據這個疏散的範圍地方政府會框定人數"},{"start":232.679,"end":258.958,"text":"那現在這個審計部的報告裡面指出來是你後段的你的疏散撤離這一塊其實做的計畫不夠周全那你認為農業部未來有能力繼續督導這一塊嗎還是說在權責上面這一塊內政部他們在這一塊其實很多的災難應變中心包括災防法主管機關都是內政部是不是他們來統整會更好一點"},{"start":259.498,"end":277.751,"text":"我想政府是一體的然後相對的就是當疏散撤離計畫的時候應該是跨部會去做協助跟輔導我剛才說的保全對象疏散換為收容所然後後面可能的醫療所以它是一個跨部會但是相對在應變中心有個疏散撤離組他就會去做統整"},{"start":278.783,"end":301.278,"text":"那這次有統整嗎因為我看不到坦白講這次花蓮我比較看不到是哪一個部會他其實扛起來他作為一個主責機關感覺好像各負責一段但是呢找到一個從頭到尾就是貫徹然後都在指揮然後作證然後把整個問題他都可以統合式處理的看起來就不是很清晰喔"},{"start":302.258,"end":321.409,"text":"據我所了解在這次中央應變中心成立以後那相對的疏散撤離的範圍本身有經過討論不同的專家討論最後框定了那個範圍那框定的範圍疏散撤離組就是內政部的消防組疏散撤離組就通知了所有的縣市政府跟相公所他要根據這個範圍裡面去擬定這些"},{"start":324.45,"end":338.724,"text":"好 我今天特别提出来这个问题就是我觉得农业部你有你们的专业这些农产品什么都是你们的专业 冻保是你们的专业但是在疏散撤离的部分坦白讲如果要你们扛起所有的责任我觉得是过重了"},{"start":339.184,"end":367.101,"text":"你們監測也是你們的專業所以這一個部分我也希望我會再請教院長我也希望你們回去之後在部會之間可以有更清晰的分工才不會面對複合型災難的時候感覺好像是你們要扛但是事實上後面的蘇珊座位又不是你最專業的部分我覺得這樣做起來會有一些可能要被檢討的空間所以這個部分我覺得各部會的分工現在的相關規定蘇珊撤離的計畫你一定跟實施是相公所"},{"start":367.621,"end":382.588,"text":"但是整個計畫的核定是憲政五在詹媽媽裡面其實想得非常清楚但是你中央要督導嗎對 就是協助輔導這樣的方式你是有監督之責嗎中央地方還有鄉鎮公所對啊 所以它必須是整個整合在一起我希望這個部分好好來檢討"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1130,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，在災防法裡面，有關於堰塞湖和土石流的監測，其實是農業部的責任。本席就看到，審計部113年的報告指出，現在還有19處大規模的崩塌潛勢區存在，當中我也看到，像我的故鄉嘉義縣，也高達有3處，這邊提出一個問題，就是說，現在農業部針對這一些大規模崩塌的潛勢區，你們預備撤離的計畫或避難的處所，準備的計畫都還不夠周全，都有值得改善之處，那部長你自己知道嗎？這19處你們現在有在積極地改善嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，根據我們現在的統計，其實在1,745個土石流潛勢區裡面，有79處大規模崩塌的潛勢區，不只是19處，一旦劃入了以後，其實最重要的就是下游的保全對象的疏散撤離的計畫。"],["王委員育敏：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：特別重要的是有沒有保全對象的清冊、疏散的路線，還有後續的疏散對象收容安置的地方，這個部分一旦我們框定了以後，我們就會跟後面的保全對象去做有系統的溝通，希望他們能夠及早建立保全對象，這個是最重要的，這樣才知道說，萬一真的發生了崩塌以後，因為土石流崩塌只有短短的時間可以因應，疏散必須要很快。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，那個時間已經變得非常短。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會加強跟中下游的居民來溝通。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分，本席要進一步請教的就是，審計部的報告指出的19處，你們還有待改善，那我要問的是，事實上，從這一次花蓮這個災難當中，我們看到，這種複合型的災難，從河川上游溢流到最後淹沒住宅，你認為你們農業部在這邊扮演的角色，在災難撤離的部分，你們比較專業還是內政部比較專業？你們兩個部會角色有沒有重疊的地方？"],["陳部長駿季：在平常的時候，我們針對我們的目標物，像堰塞湖，我們會做一些監測，然後監測完了以後，根據當地當時的雨量，跟它的容水量，會有一些不同的風險，那這個風險如果達到某個程度的時候，就會造成對下游的影響，那我們就會把這個訊息傳給地方政府，傳給鄉鎮公所，一旦遇到狀況，像颱風的話，就有中央應變中心成立，中央應變中心成立了以後，這個資訊就進到應變中心裡面去做資料的整合。"],["王委員育敏：就內政部會接管，是內政部來督導嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就會接管，大概就用這樣的方式，然後做決策以後，經過大家討論……"],["王委員育敏：但是如果是土石流，就你自己要從頭負責到尾，按照現在的災防法是這樣子。"],["陳部長駿季：不過一般土石流發生，也是因為有颱風、豪雨，都會成立應變中心，應變中心有一個疏散撤離組，那我們提供這樣的訊息，劃設了黃色或紅色警戒以後，那這些區域裡面的疏散撤離組人員，就會開始去針對地方政府的應變計畫，開始去做疏散。"],["王委員育敏：所以你負責到哪一個階段？"],["陳部長駿季：我們負責的是預警以後……"],["王委員育敏：預警之後就交出去給應變中心？"],["陳部長駿季：疏散範圍釐定以後，如果應變中心成立，我們把資料交給應變中心，然後根據這個疏散的範圍，地方政府會框定人數。"],["王委員育敏：現在審計部的報告指出，後段你的疏散撤離這一塊其實做的計畫不夠周全，那你認為農業部未來有能力繼續督導這一塊嗎？還是說，在權責上面，其實很多的災難應變中心，包括災防法主管機關都是內政部，是不是由他們來統整會更好一點？"],["陳部長駿季：我想政府是一體的，當推動疏散撤離計畫的時候，應該是跨部會去協助跟輔導，我剛才說的保全對象及疏散範圍收容所，包含後面可能的醫療，是一個跨部會的行動，但是在應變中心有一個疏散撤離組，就會去做統整。"],["王委員育敏：那這次有統整嗎？我看不到，坦白講，這次花蓮我比較看不到是哪一個部會扛起作為一個主責機關的責任，感覺好像是各負責一段，但是要找到一個從頭到尾貫徹權責，然後都在指揮、坐鎮，整個問題都可以統合式處理的，看起來就不是很清晰，我希望……"],["陳部長駿季：據我所了解，在這一次中央應變中心成立以後，疏散撤離的範圍，有經過不同的專家討論，最後框定的那個範圍，是疏散撤離組，就是內政部的消防組來決定，疏散撤離組就通知了所有的縣市政府跟鄉公所，他們要根據這個範圍，去擬定對策，儘快提出資料。"],["王委員育敏：我今天特別提出這個問題，就是因為我覺得農業部有你們的專業，農產品是你們的專業，動保是你們的專業，但是在疏散撤離的部分，坦白講，如果要你們扛起所有責任，我覺得是過重。監測也是你的專業，我會再請教院長，我希望你們回去之後，部會之間可以有更清晰的分工，才不會在面對複合型災難的時候，感覺好像是你們要扛，但是事實上後面的疏散作業又不是你最專業的部分，我覺得這樣做起來，會有一些可能要被檢討的空間，所以這個部分我覺得各部會的分工要統一整合。"],["陳部長駿季：根據現在的相關規定，在疏離撤離計畫的擬訂跟實施方面，實施是鄉公所來做，但是整個計畫的核定是縣政府來做，在災防法裡面講的非常清楚。"],["王委員育敏：但是你中央要督導嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是協助、輔導。"],["王委員育敏：你要負監督之責。"],["陳部長駿季：是三級制，有分中央、地方、鄉鎮公所，是分級的。"],["王委員育敏：對啊，所以必須是整個整合在一起，我希望這個部分好好來檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員質詢，謝謝部長。","我們現在請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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我覺得這個奇怪我們怎麼跟世界這幾個主流國家不但有差異而且這十幾年來都差異 越差越大"},{"start":101.772,"end":123.984,"text":"我們就講美國他們的統計好了美國統計了全世界有140個國家他有把每個國家的大概的這些數字他們有做了一些分析那他們的分析以外包括英國、德國、日本、韓國這些先進國家他們也都有他們的分析"},{"start":125.104,"end":147.911,"text":"所有他們的分析起來他們認為他們自己國家貧窮率大概從14%到16%中間14%到16%我們講平均大概15%以他們認為他們自己國家的貧窮率但是在我們國家我們貧窮率的計算"},{"start":149.434,"end":175.303,"text":"我們對我們自己國內貧窮人口的占比數我們的計算啦大概照這樣看你們所公布你們公布最近公布的一個是7.13%大概是全世界平均15%的一半一半不到那當然如果這是事實這很好喔表示我們國人"},{"start":177.199,"end":189.008,"text":"我們居於世界之冠我們消滅了貧窮但是我怕這些數字如果不詳實有很大的誤差那我們不是志氣氣人嗎"},{"start":191.178,"end":216.531,"text":"自欺欺人的另外一面就是什麼就是說那糟糕那對於我們沒有估算到而實質他是在貧窮線的民眾那變成我們的社福政策我們接濟不到他們這是另外一個更嚴重傷腦筋的問題所以我今天就教於你那照這些估算不但有差"},{"start":218.41,"end":231.799,"text":"我們實質政府在有救助有補助的這一個部分低收入中低收入根據你們公布低收入人數從107年2018年我剛列了這個10年下來31萬多到今年25萬9有減少中低收入從33萬多到24萬2"},{"start":243.223,"end":266.615,"text":"我就把25萬924萬2加起來我們就是有50萬位有接受政府救助補助的低收入戶跟中低收入戶人口50萬人可是這有兩個差距出來了跟我們主計處自己所公布的7.13那就有很大的出路了"},{"start":268.164,"end":296.356,"text":"我們有救助有補助25.9萬加24.2萬這55萬人大概啊大概等於佔我們總人口的2.3%那也就是從你的7.13到2.3有將近5%的黑數那是奇怪那他是誰很怪囉他是貧窮啊但是政府沒有補助他"},{"start":297.443,"end":321.659,"text":"沒有救助他這是一大黑數這就是所謂的窮人黑數窮人黑數那窮人黑數還來自另外一個民間的版本的估算那差更多民間好幾個公民團體他們都很專業喔他們有的來自於我們退休的"},{"start":322.605,"end":344.749,"text":"公務人員有的是各方面會計統計這部分的學者專家教授他們去組成的他們估算他們的估算他們是以年收入不到國人可以支配所得中位數的六成他以這樣子中位數的六成下去算他們認為有12%到13%的全國人口是位於"},{"start":351.05,"end":370.162,"text":"貧窮縣的 是位於貧窮縣那12%到13%那是多少人那就是280萬到300萬人欸欸 土地局長那就跟我們剛剛提的低收入戶中低收入戶加起來的50萬人那黑數就高達250萬啦那比"},{"start":374.704,"end":391.756,"text":"我剛剛跟你提到的你公布的7.137.13的黑數70萬那如果照民間估算的結果那這個貧窮的人數窮人的黑數將會高達250萬人"},{"start":400.1,"end":409.35,"text":"我們台灣才2380萬人也就是說我們有高達一成的我們台灣同胞們他是處於貧窮線"},{"start":411.309,"end":438.594,"text":"這些窮人黑素他是沒辦法接受到政府任何的福利政策任何的救助補助也就是我們政府努力了數十年全民努力了數十年當這些貧窮黑素發生不幸一般生活不濟的時候我們政府我們全民接不到他們這個就是我在害怕的"},{"start":440.406,"end":464.818,"text":"這就是這些黑數一直困擾著我們大家的到底是多少如果我們以現實的觀點來看確實也可以從很多現象看得出來包括從各價位的餐廳包括從一般的小吃包括連在車站連在公園"},{"start":468.783,"end":496.449,"text":"這幾年來陸陸續續增加的這些遊民的人數包括我們可以聽得到的街坊鄰居朋友新聞報導的很多這些黑素民眾他們如果遇到更糟糕的家庭不幸的時候那會導致家破人亡"},{"start":497.662,"end":526.972,"text":"所以主計長我麻煩你務必第一點回去你們把這些數字到底是怎麼回事是民間團體算賺呢還是我們主計處這個部分我們有盲點因為你們就等於出現了兩個數字兩個不同的數字本身就產生了70萬位民眾的差距這個就已經是個黑數第二點是不是"},{"start":529.491,"end":546.646,"text":"你回去跟衛福部 折騰他們衛福部 詳實地算一下到底他列的低收入戶 中低收入戶他是怎麼樣的一個統計的 哪樣的一個資料 不要動不動"},{"start":548.267,"end":568.743,"text":"他們動不動就拿一個說這個排富條款這個因為他怎樣他拿一個三等親裡面有什麼工作這個可以接濟他這個接濟那個接濟講半天結果這怎麼叫接濟呢他如果有個三等親年輕朋友"},{"start":570.063,"end":592.516,"text":"有正職工作每個月三萬多塊的收入那怎麼有辦法去接濟這一位實質有需要幫助的窮人黑素哪有辦法接濟年輕他剛畢業自己的生活費租金不打緊還要還房貸所以有一些都變成我們政府單位我們自己"},{"start":594.286,"end":606.234,"text":"自己往自己資格去想說理所當然的你是三等親嘛你就可以去依這個親事實上不然所以我必須講很現實的啦在現實的"},{"start":609.716,"end":633.481,"text":"陽光底下我們有很多辛苦工作的百姓們都自顧不暇了我們政府不要一廂情願的把這些都認為說這個有這樣子的三等輕所以就不把它列入這個補助就不把它列入貧窮線的補助那這種想法是截然錯誤好不好"},{"start":635.281,"end":651.216,"text":"回去數字想計算更仔細一點要接住每一位我們台灣同胞需要幫助補助的朋友第一步就是要從詳實的數字開始詳實的計算起好不好"},{"start":651.536,"end":668.878,"text":"好謝謝委員那我這裡也說明一下因為衛福部他整個中低收入戶的算法他是要把動產或不動產他有先納入考量那我們這整個是就薪資的一個一個去設算所以我們是7點多他把動產不動產的中低收入的"},{"start":670.339,"end":692.138,"text":"這個納入考量之後所以它整個一些中低收入乎才會變成一點多這個部分所以這個部分就是說我們將來看要怎麼樣跟衛福部來討論說盡量這個部分要怎樣來我們放寬這個限制是這樣子好 處長那我也跟您提一下我也跟沈記長也說明一下其實這個我們立法院"},{"start":692.839,"end":712.34,"text":"我還有其他立委我們有提案我們認為早就應該把這個排富標準金額提高這個我們還在立法院奮戰當中但是我希望說至少我們主計處、審計處在這個部分提供意見給他們的時候要求他們應該與時俱進去調高"},{"start":716.45,"end":731.659,"text":"這個所謂的你不補助的範圍不應該把這個標準還列在四五十年前的標準這樣每個人都被你排富掉了那就講的台灣就均富了嗎台灣就沒有貧窮了嗎事實上不是這樣好不好好我們謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1109,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時17分）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：主計長，主計總處和今天列席的審計部確實很用心戮力於公務，這是事實，我確實非常肯定主計總處、審計部的貢獻。不過，主計總處的數字不能有那麼大的差異，必須很翔實，因為主計總處掌管全國所有包括經濟發展、財政、各部會和全民工作努力所有的成果，這些數字都必須很翔實的紀錄、翔實的去分析。","我對於貧窮的計算覺得很奇怪，為什麼我們和世界上這幾個主流國家不但有差異，而且這十幾年來越差越大，我們就講美國的統計，美國統計了全世界140個國家，他把每個國家的大概數字作了一些分析，他們的分析以外，包括英國、德國、日本、韓國這些先進的國家，他們也都有他們的分析，所有他們的分析起來，他們認為自己國家貧窮率大概14%到16%中間，我們講平均大概15%，但是在我們國家貧窮率的計算，我們對於我們自己國內貧窮人口的占比數，你們最近公布的是7.13%，大概是全世界平均15%的一半不到。當然，如果這是事實，這很好喔！表示我們居於世界之冠，我們消滅了貧窮，但是我怕這些數字如果不翔實、有很大的誤差，那我們不是自欺欺人嗎？自欺欺人的另外一面就是什麼？對於我們沒有估算到而實質在貧窮線的民眾，變成我們的社福政策接濟不到他們，這是另外一個更嚴重傷腦筋的問題。","所以我今天就教於你，這些估算不但有差，我們實質政府在有救助、有補助的部分，低收入、中低收入根據你們公布，低收入人數從107年（2018年）等等我剛列的這個，十年下來，從三十一萬多到今年二十五萬九，有減少，中低收入從三十三萬多到二十四萬二，把二十五萬九、二十四萬二加起來，我們就是有50萬位接受政府救助、補助的低收入戶和中低收入戶人口。","可是這有兩個差距出來，跟主計總處所公布的7.13%就有很大的出入了，我們有救助、有補助的二十五萬九加二十四萬二，這50萬人大概占我們總人口的2.3%，也就是從你的7.13%到2.3%有將近5%的黑數，那他是誰？很怪喔！他是貧窮啊！但是政府沒有補助他、沒有救助他，這是一大黑數，這就是所謂的窮人黑數。","窮人黑數還來自另外一個，民間版本的估算差更多！民間好幾個公民團體都很專業，他們有的來自於退休的公務人員，有的是會計、統計各方面的學者專家教授組成的，他們的估算是以年收入不到國人可支配所得中位數的六成下去算，他們認為有12%到13%的全國人口是位於貧窮線的，12%到13%是多少人？就是280萬到300萬人。","主計長，那跟我們剛剛提的低收入戶、中低收入戶加起來的50萬人，黑數就高達250萬，比較我剛剛跟你提到的你公布的7.13%的黑數70萬，如果照民間估算的結果，窮人的黑數將會高達250萬人，臺灣才2,380萬人，也就是說我們有高達一成的臺灣同胞們是處於貧窮線，這些窮人黑數是沒辦法接受到政府任何的福利政策、任何的救助補助，也就是政府努力了數十年，全民努力了數十年，當這些貧窮黑數發生不幸、一般生活不繼的時候，我們政府、我們全民接不到他們，這個就是我害怕的，就是這些黑數一直困擾著大家，到底是多少？","如果我們以現實的觀點來看，確實可以從很多現象看得出來，包括從各價位的餐廳、包括從一般的小吃，連在車站、公園，這幾年來陸陸續續增加的遊民人數，包括我們可以聽得到的，街坊、鄰居、朋友、新聞報導的，很多這些黑數他們如果遇到更糟糕的家庭不幸時，那會導致家破人亡！","所以，麻煩主計長務必：第一點，回去你們看這些數字到底是怎麼回事，是民間團體算錯呢？還是主計總處有盲點？因為你們就出現兩個數字，兩個不同的數字本身就產生70萬位民眾的差距，這就已經是個黑數。第二點，你回去責成衛福部翔實算一下到底它列的低收入戶、中低收入戶是怎樣統計的，哪樣的資料？它們動不動就拿出排富條款，這個因為他怎樣、三等親裡面有工作可以接濟他，這個接濟、那個接濟，講半天結果這怎麼接濟呢？他如果有個三等親，年輕朋友有正職工作，每個月三萬多塊的收入，怎麼有辦法接濟這位實質有需要幫助的窮人黑數？哪有辦法接濟？年輕、剛畢業，他自己的生活費、租金都不打緊，還要還房貸，所以有一些都變成政府單位自個去想，理所當然的，他是三等親，你就可以去依這個親。事實上不然，所以我必須講很現實的，在現實的陽光底下，我們有很多辛苦工作的百姓們都自顧不暇了，我們政府不要一廂情願的把這些都認為有這樣的三等親就不把他列入補助、不把他列入貧窮線的補助，這種想法是截然錯誤的，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：回去數字計算更仔細一點，要接住臺灣同胞每一位需要幫助、補助的朋友，第一步就是要從翔實的數字開始，翔實的計算起，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好，謝謝委員，我這裡也說明一下，因為衛福部整個中低收入戶的算法是把動產或不動產納入考量，我們是就薪資去設算，所以我們是七點多，它把動產、不動產納入中低收入資格考量之後，整個中低收入戶才會變成一點多，這個部分看將來要怎麼跟衛福部來討論要怎樣放寬限制。"],["王委員世堅：好，主計長，我跟你提一下，我也跟審計長說明一下，這個部分，其實我和其他立委有提案，我們認為早就應該把排富標準金額提高，我們還在立法院奮戰當中，但是我希望至少主計總處、審計部在這個部分提供意見給它們的時候，要求它們應該與時俱進，去調高不補助的金額，不應該把這個標準還列在四、五十年前的標準，這樣每個人都被你排富掉了，這樣臺灣就均富了嗎？臺灣就沒有貧窮了嗎？事實上不是這樣，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["王委員世堅：好。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本日會議作如下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週以內書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。三、本日會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},{"id":"164197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164197","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6bd67c9c6e75ad69f1d8817d393176c43b6741136213cfef6a1a78cd5b970aaea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"12:19:39 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跟凍飽相關我想這個第一線在地方的這個收容所收容的量能不足這已經不是一天兩天的事是好幾年的事情了這個大概從十幾年前我在關心凍飽的問題一直存在到現在我想這個收容的量能其實不能只靠下游的收容我所謂的下游收容就是回歸到地方政府的這個凍飽處"},{"start":44.621,"end":73.701,"text":"但是呢我們源頭上的管理其實是更加重要其實我們不想要讓看到這個農業部每兩年每一年每兩年就出來要重申說要打擊非法繁殖這樣子的一個決心喔只是喊一喊然後過了之後其實這個問題還依舊存在喔那我想呢現在各縣市的這個收容所普遍喔這個除了是滿載還超載許多的志工其實都會跟我反應因為我認識很多收容所的志工喔他們都有反應喔這狗狗送不進去"},{"start":74.561,"end":94.591,"text":"那之後可能就是用TNVR但是TNVR又衍生到很多其他的一些問題我們現在針對所謂的源頭繁殖的源頭沒有管制其實棄養的成本也太低這個問題其實是根本以來一直存在也沒有辦法一天解決的一些事情"},{"start":95.171,"end":112.818,"text":"那我想我相信農業部對於全台灣各地收容所的實際的收容量跟使用量我相信你們應該有盤整也有掌握但是有沒有所謂的預警的機制就是當我知道某一個收容所他們可能已經要超載了那這個預警的機制我們有沒有做後續要怎麼樣來處理這是第一個問題第二個問題"},{"start":116.605,"end":139.206,"text":"對於所謂的違法繁殖跟棄養者我們現行的法規對他們的處罰是不是真的過輕而且我們是不是應該要提高這個法則或建立禁止再飼養的制度尤其是對於繁殖業者更要嚴加來做這樣子的一個進行那我想第三點就是我一直不斷的在跟我們的動保司司長也一直在討論的就是我們要怎麼樣來盤點我們可用的"},{"start":141.588,"end":164.382,"text":"資源跟土地我們來建立所謂的生命教育的園區現在目前有沒有進度那進度到哪裡那我們接著下來應該要怎麼做三個問題請教好謝謝那個第一個問題就是有關於現在目前的這收容所本身的這些容量各地的容量的資訊然後提供一個預警的一個機制那這個部分我們大概每個月都有公佈都有公佈但是我覺得公佈"},{"start":166.045,"end":184.321,"text":"公布是一件事情後續怎麼辦呢後續因為收容所我們現在正在協調有沒有辦法收容所本身之間可以互相支援這樣的話才能夠有更大的收容的效率因為現在的周轉率並不高所以如果說還有地方的認養率也很低對"},{"start":185.442,"end":205.071,"text":"所以大家對於所謂的生命教育的這個傳統就是我要品種狗我要漂亮的土的或者是混種的米克斯我不要黑的更不要其實這個是教育的觀念這又是另外一個不同的議題所以我才會說針對收容的部分是不是可以彼此縣市之間有一個資源系統這樣預警才有意義然後第二個就是說"},{"start":206.151,"end":233.598,"text":"那可以實施嗎可以實施嗎就是後續的這個部分這個牽涉到後續本身縣市政府的認同度啦這個需要溝通但是我們先先講說兩個縣市如果願意的話就先來辦不是全部啦然後第二個部分就是有關於有關於這個已經棄養的話你不能再再飼養這個我們會把它納入相關的相關的已經納到相關的那個法條裡面去就是黑名單的建立對"},{"start":235.278,"end":256.229,"text":"嚴格要執行這個就是如果納入修法的時候但是這個也要有一個就是要落實晶片登記要用登記不然你也不知道企業因為強化事主責任這其實在我們的動保法修法其實這也是重中之重那我們希望在這個會期其實能夠趕快提出一些版本然後再來您提到第三個就是聲音教育的這些園區的規劃"},{"start":258.01,"end":282.221,"text":"那這個園區的規劃我們現在就是說有一個法規你可以設置但是我可能更重視的是收容的地方因為收容現在縣市政府沒有量而且是林壁設施所以我也盤點了很多國有地的部分可能被誤解說我們要用保安林地或是什麼去危害生態事實上我們用的是一個不會破農牧用地不會破壞"},{"start":283.081,"end":299.814,"text":"不是在生態熱區裡頭的啦不是生態熱區裡面的這個部分那我們會持續的用這樣的方式我之所以今天會問這一題就是要農業部其實真的出來好好的說明讓大家把這個部分的疑慮真的去除掉對 所以這個部分我們會加強說明這樣的話才有機會增加你的收容量"},{"start":300.194,"end":318.242,"text":"好然後第二個問題再給我一點點的時間我想現在其實這個寵物展是越來越頻繁的在舉辦過去可能一年頂多一次到兩次而且以貓犬犬貓居多但是現在我們發現這個寵物展一進去所有的攤位幾乎都是所謂的爬蟲類但我們在非犬貓的另外的這個"},{"start":319.222,"end":334.293,"text":"寵物的這個管轄的範圍其實非貓犬的這些爬蟲類也好兩棲類也好目前還有奇特的小型哺乳類等等目前是沒有法規沒有法源依據可以來做管理的這個部分我們請農業部這邊也好好的回去研議可以嗎"},{"start":335.113,"end":346.707,"text":"可以 我也跟委員報告這次我們公告了有641種禁止飼養的這些東西準備要預告的部分很多都是爬蟲類的那我們也知道應該禮拜五嘛就有人號稱說核口2有沒有"},{"start":350.35,"end":354.653,"text":"那個不是 那個是很可怕的對啊 但是它覺得它可以飼養所以它要來抗議那個可以到6公尺內那個一旦被棄養放在河裡面去那就變成一個大災難所以我為什麼要特別點出這題因為是現在有很多人其實都在養爬蟲類"},{"start":368.722,"end":385.308,"text":"但是如果我們政府沒有重視這個繁殖的源頭跟多元寵物的生態的風險這有可能會成為今天下一波生態災難的前奏所以關於非貓犬的寵物的管理的辦法請盡快趕快出來可以嗎謝謝委員的支持謝謝郭玉琴委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1089,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長看到我站在這裡，就應該知道我要問什麼了，對不對？就是跟動保相關的。動保第一線，在地方的收容所收容的量能不足，這已經不是一天、兩天的事，是好幾年的事情了，從十幾年前我關心動保，這個問題一直存在到現在。收容的量能其實不能只靠下游的收容，我所謂下游的收容，就是回歸到地方政府的動保處，但是我們源頭上的管理，其實是更加重要。我們不想要看到農業部每一年、每兩年就出來重申要打擊非法繁殖的決心，只是喊一喊，過了之後，其實這個問題還依舊存在。現在各縣市的收容所普遍除了滿載以外，還是超載，許多的志工其實都會跟我反應，因為我認識很多收容所的志工，他們也都反映狗送不進去，之後可能就是用TNVR，但是TNVR又衍生很多其他的問題，我們現在針對源頭，繁殖的源頭沒有管制，棄養的成本也太低，這個問題其實是根本以來一直存在，也沒有辦法一天解決的一些事情，我相信農業部對於全臺灣各地收容所的實際收容量跟使用量，應該有盤整和掌握，但是有沒有預警的機制？就是知道某一個收容所可能要超載了，那這個預警的機制有沒有後續如何處理的措施？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，對於違法繁殖跟棄養者，現行的法規對他們的處罰是不是真的過輕？而且我們是不是應該要提高罰則，或建立禁止再飼養的制度？尤其是對於繁殖業者，更要嚴加來做這樣子的限制。","第三點就是我一直不斷地跟動保司司長在討論的，就是我們要怎麼樣來盤點可用的資源跟土地，來建立生命教育的園區，目前有沒有進度？進度到哪裡？我們接下來應該要怎麼做？","以上三個問題，請教部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。第一個問題就是有關於目前收容所本身各地容量的資訊，然後提供一個預警的機制，這個部分我們每個月都有公布，但是我覺得公布是一件事情……"],["郭委員昱晴：公布是一件事情，後續要怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在正在協調，看看有沒有辦法收容所本身之間可以互相支援，這樣的話才能夠有更大的收容的效率，因為現在的周轉率並不高，所以如果說還有……"],["郭委員昱晴：還有地方的認養率也很低。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以大家對於生命教育的傳統，就是說我要品種狗，我要漂亮的狗，我要土狗或者是混種的，米克斯我不要，黑的更不要，其實這個是教育的觀念，這又是另外一個不同的議題。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我才會說，針對收容的部分，是不是可以縣市之間有一個支援系統，這樣預警才有意義。"],["郭委員昱晴：對。"],["陳部長駿季：然後第二個就是說，如果一旦棄養……"],["郭委員昱晴：可以實施嗎？可以實施嗎？就是後續的這個部分。"],["陳部長駿季：這個牽涉到後續部分縣市政府的認同度，需要溝通，但是我們先講說，兩個縣市如果願意的話，就先來辦，不是全部啦。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。好，隨時告訴我。"],["陳部長駿季：然後第二個部分就是已經棄養的話就不能再飼養，這個我們已經納入相關的法條裡面去……"],["郭委員昱晴：是，就是黑名單的建立。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，要嚴格執行。"],["陳部長駿季：如果納入修法的時候，這個部分也要配合落實晶片登記，不然也不知道棄養者是誰。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為強化飼主責任其實在動保法修法之中也是重中之重。"],["陳部長駿季：這是非常重要的。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們希望在這個會期能夠趕快提出一些版本。"],["陳部長駿季：您提到第三個就是生命教育園區的規劃，那這個園區的規劃，我們現在就是有一個法規規定可以設置，但是我可能更重視的是收容的地方，因為現在縣市政府沒有收容量了，而且收容所是鄰避設施，所以我也盤點了很多國有地，可能被誤解說我們要用保安林地或去危害生態，事實上我們用的不會破壞農牧用地的……"],["郭委員昱晴：不是在生態熱區裡頭的。"],["陳部長駿季：不是在生態熱區裡面的，然後我們會持續地用這樣的方式……"],["郭委員昱晴：我之所以今天會問這一題，就是要農業部真的出來好好地說明，讓大家把這個部分的疑慮真的去除掉。"],["陳部長駿季：是。這個部分，我們會加強說明，這樣的話，才有機會增加收容量。"],["郭委員昱晴：再給我一點點的時間講第二個問題，現在寵物展是越來越頻繁地在舉辦，過去可能一年頂多一次到兩次，而且以犬、貓居多，但是現在我們發現，一進去寵物展，所有的攤位幾乎都是爬蟲類，但我們在非犬、貓的寵物的管轄，不管是爬蟲類也好，兩棲類也好，還有奇特的小型哺乳類等等，目前是沒有法規、沒有法源依據可以來管理的，這個部分，我們請農業部這邊也好好地回去研議，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以。我也跟委員報告，這次我們公告了641種禁止飼養的動物，準備要預告的部分，很多都是爬蟲類的，禮拜五就有人號稱河口鱷……"],["郭委員昱晴：那個不行，那個是很可怕的，那個是很危險的。"],["陳部長駿季：對啊。可是有人覺得可以飼養，所以他要來抗議，那個可以到6公尺，那個一旦被棄養，放到河裡面去，那就變成一個大災難。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我為什麼要特別點出這一題？因為現在有很多人都在養爬蟲類，但是如果我們政府沒有重視繁殖的源頭跟多元寵物生態的風險，這有可能會成為下一波生態災難的前奏，所以關於非貓犬的寵物管理辦法，請儘快提出來，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，也謝謝委員的支持。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝，謝謝，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，謝謝，謝謝部長。","我們現在請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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現在就少數的學生但是學生裡面的授教權跟教師的工作權是很重要的想請問的是部長或者是看到是署長你這邊對於學校的學生的授教權可以看到他現在比較少 但是現在教師的工作權這部分處理的原則是什麼"},{"start":98.715,"end":114.054,"text":"我想跟委員報告事實上學生的受教訓我們一定如果學校退場我們一定會就近的安排包含這一個他可能衍生出的交通費我們大概在整個退場的機制裡面都會這一個對學生可以一些協助"},{"start":114.494,"end":134.201,"text":"那另外老師的一些他的一個工作權或者他的一個薪資上所有的東西我們事實上以這幾年來我們在私校退場都有一個非常標準的SOP處理的機制我想怎麼樣去確保確保老師的一個權益好 這個SOP就請部長之後就給本辦公室"},{"start":137.822,"end":166.778,"text":"那另外更重要的是校地的問題齁我們看到的是有幾個在撕苗栗的跟彰化的部分你們教育部有注意到說他必須要不得做私用嘛他有些長照啦或者是要做養生的你們把他補助啦那算是好事情齁但是時程上面現在請問大概這些什麼時候校地這邊要怎麼樣的時間性或大概多久會處理完有沒有跟地方政府或是跨部會做協調這在你們報告當中有呈現出來了"},{"start":167.498,"end":187.096,"text":"好跟委員報告針對私校退場之後他的校地在完成解散清算之後他才有辦法去做校地的處理那行政院有組成一個針對退場學校校地的使用那會先徵詢各部會"},{"start":188.577,"end":214.716,"text":"看有没有部会有需要这样的校地来做公务使用以大专校院来讲已经有非常多的部会跟县市政府来这部分就是说有一个结算现在也还没到所谓的结算的部分所以还没有进行那大概就可以知道说现在有这些的一个几种的处理方式我们看到的教育部这边是不是可以承诺他必须都是为教育公益为优先考量是能做这样的承诺呢"},{"start":215.296,"end":228.133,"text":"而以公益优先这个是没有问题一定是公用的那至于这个公用是不是在教育方面或是在例如说卫福部它可能有"},{"start":230.186,"end":256.44,"text":"長照的需求經濟部有產業人才培育的需求等等那這個就看承接的部會好 這部會有注意到這個公益我覺得教育部或政府有這樣的承諾是好事情我們現在看到的是明道大學我想應該同樣是這個問題 他們沒有做清算嘛是不是這樣子 好 那另外的包括的是在清大這邊我們看到是有這樣的發展是好事情在根據中華大學的部分"},{"start":257.02,"end":280.151,"text":"那他還有老師喔所以這邊要特別要注意到老師這邊我想這個請教育部這邊的後來這邊就繼續在追蹤他做下報告好謝謝那我們繼續再往下看我潮池化的問題不只是涉及到現在要退場的就是包括之中看到的是依照這個全國私立學校產業工會的分析當中未來大家看這個表"},{"start":281.051,"end":293.288,"text":"現在是一個低潮啦但是下一次的時候呢會跟到124年的時候從現在的一般的17萬到14萬多那請問一下教育部這邊有什麼樣的規劃嗎針對這樣的情況"},{"start":297.787,"end":316.929,"text":"那跟委員報告那針對整個少子女化的這樣的一個狀況當然這個是一個不可逆除了說國內聲援的一個持續我們透過行政院的少子女化專案辦公室來增加國內的請問一下是不是只能只有退場"},{"start":317.99,"end":318.991,"text":"是 他當然可以轉型"},{"start":347.99,"end":373.448,"text":"像长照这些体系而包括更重要的是在于包括像AI或者是更重要的大概医疗的部分等等的有这个考虑吗有 跟我们报告其实这几年政府对于技职教育的资源投入其实是非常的多所以我们对于整个技职校院的一个设备配合国家5加2的产业发展"},{"start":374.348,"end":394.449,"text":"我们有建了很多的一个人才培育基地那像今年我们又针对AI百工百业AI人才的培育那我们也提供我们的学校相关的设备针对像有些进入他从小中学他进入到高职的时候其实在国中结束就有一个很重要这个宣传够吗"},{"start":395.91,"end":417.706,"text":"現場可能都沒有聽到這樣的聲音中等學校這部分我想國教署這邊也是有一些的計畫來推動那我剛跟報告的是記專的部分跟委員報告感謝委員關心因為確實少子化一定會對高校產生一定的衝擊可是我也利用這個在這一年來我也跟我們大學的校長做一個觀念的分享"},{"start":418.908,"end":440.064,"text":"我們不要少子化如果它是一個客觀的一個事實除了我們產業需求我們引進所謂的這個僑外生以外來豐富我們的這個產業的需求人才的培育另外還有一個就是從終身學習的觀點來看為什麼我們那麼多的大學150幾所大學每一個都在想18"},{"start":441.832,"end":464.947,"text":"所以那一個所謂的15萬未來15萬或者14萬的學生我們能不能想從終身學習產業上的一些不斷的科技的發展30歲以後他應該隨時能夠讓他有機會回到大學也就是說我們未來的招生大學的經營不應該只在想18歲而是你要想怎麼樣去把自己"},{"start":465.327,"end":479.955,"text":"部長你說得很好但是很重要的是如果人才一直少像應該有做院裡面要做所謂的跨部會的讓人才的能夠或是人生育率能夠再提升這是非常重要這當然是另外一個對人口的一個政策上的一個好我知道政府"},{"start":480.535,"end":503.364,"text":"部長你有這樣一個宣示是說要終身學習是也在做也是蠻好的我們繼續下面看一個問題在學習歷程上面看到的是很大的一個這是造成在暑假當中一個很大的新聞那有一個造假之後呢他就重新透過分科測驗裡面就進來了那你看到的時候想問教育部對於學習歷程造假這個問題發現到這個制度跟運作有什麼問題"},{"start":504.304,"end":523.864,"text":"包括更重要是我們看到的是有團體喔他提到的是他說浪費很大長大的資源事實上有1.5萬份的是無人審閱那教室的疲於應付還有造假是難以查核因為你既然做這部分就很重要去查核可是更重要是請問教育部裡面的在大學大考中心裡面所"},{"start":525.157,"end":544.019,"text":"學歷 學習歷程他的目的應該是要作為讓他去瞭解這個考試瞭解整個學習的甚至透過自己的生涯的規劃嘛 對吧那這個情況我們想問的是可是在這種情況之下你教育部問到的他看到你什麼問題呢"},{"start":547.834,"end":576.526,"text":"学习历程档案的这个部分就大学端来讲它确实如同刚才委员所说的是在学生这些老师在审查学生的一个过程中看他学习的整个过程所以我们也透过了相关的一个跟高中端以及大学端的一个讨论希望能够未来再针对学习历程档案怎么样更符合检视出来是这个学生所如实表现的这个部分也有做了一些精进的一个探讨"},{"start":577.066,"end":592.419,"text":"你們有做查核嗎我們目前是用宣導的形式來鼓勵高中端的學生在填寫這個學生歷程檔案的時候要如實填寫這個部分我們有加強宣導我們也有印製手冊來給這些學生做參考"},{"start":592.839,"end":618.679,"text":"那在高中端的部分我想国教署这边也有在老师的一个教导学生上面的部分辅导学生的部分也有做相关的一个改进好这个部分我们看到的是其实这个是国教盟这边他提出来这部分他造成了很多的一个成果没办法展现而且学生的这个学习效果他的就是"},{"start":619.479,"end":631.483,"text":"並沒有說這麼樣的如實去呈現然後甚至是造成家庭背景到校別的差異很大那最重要的是說他們提供的建議是說如果你是把它跟生學的考試結合在一起的時候是一個大的問題"},{"start":636.445,"end":660.853,"text":"如果本身的目的是要讓大家可以知道這樣的一個學習認識重要的重視到學習的效果等等的這部分請問教育部這邊的一些改革方因為你剛所說的要去查核或是說學倫的一個宣導等等都是好事情可是這部分還是沒有辦法必須要回歸到學習歷程當中很核心的部分他就是要重視他自己學習而不是跟學習就是跟升學掛鉤"},{"start":661.673,"end":688.32,"text":"想问教育部的改革方向当中有没有考虑到说这个废除或是说全面的改制跟委员报告那其实我们在今年度其实有委托我们的一个研究团队指出来其实我们大学班是这个保守会学吗对是我们相关的那个研究室指出来其实老师在审查这些学生的被审资料当中学习历程档案是他们重要的一个参考"},{"start":688.76,"end":713.912,"text":"那也可以看出學生他在整個高中學習階段的一個他的一些學習的一些潛力在哪裡那這一份報告我們會後可以提供給委員做參考其實雖然高中端有在老師我們也有調查到說您說的沒有錯這個是參考非常好但是既然他是參考就應該不要再算在他的升學裡面的積分部長您的想法呢"},{"start":714.687,"end":735.227,"text":"跟委員報告其實學習歷程檔案是配合108年的課綱的一個實施是 但是跟教學的跟升學掛鉤這樣是好的嗎那我們在學生的審查資料當中學生可以把這一份讓學生可以充分的展現自己在老師審查的時候可以讓他們有一個審查的依據當時的一個資料"},{"start":736.588,"end":746.921,"text":"對 神殺 依據 但是如果把它計分其實就是一個比較可惜的會浪費了很多的上力 而且 人生你要做的話就是效果應該呈現 但是計分時的要去考慮要不要放進來的"},{"start":748.139,"end":768.517,"text":"謝謝委員的一個關心確實我們內部也在跟大學端在做一些討論在研議就是說我們肯定學習歷程當然對一個學生他整個學習是的包括他整個生涯發展的一些想像怎麼樣去連結但是要不要變成一個必要的一個畢業的還是"},{"start":770.834,"end":790.715,"text":"尊重各大学各系所里边的一些他们自己来规范我想我们内部事实上也在做这样的一个讨论是不是有一个大概半年之内在下一次之前有一个帮忙我想我们跟大学端里边有一个更积极的讨论的一个结果我想我们会来做一个说明"},{"start":791.115,"end":815.865,"text":"好 我現在最後一個議題很快就是在教師方的議題因為我自己也要遵守自己的規則教師方問題剛才好幾位的委員都已經提到那最重要的我針對的會是在因為全教總有他們的一個訴求那教育部長您也都應該聽到啦在這邊的 我想要特別強調是在待遇的合理上面是一個整體看的有這個本心啦"},{"start":816.605,"end":842.404,"text":"教導師費 行政佳績 特殊偏遠 終點費那終點費其實是針對的是代理教師跟兼任教師可能是比較重視的那這些部分的話 我想剛出國教盟這邊或是全教總統提到的是一個行政職務的佳績這邊就經常教育部裡面就非常多的一個一個意見說要公教一體來把它駁回啦那這個部分我想要請教的是是不是因為"},{"start":843.445,"end":858.446,"text":"叫部長跟國教署彭署長你也知道了教師荒這個問題已經讓了包括失陪層都不願意進入到就算是拿到證照他也不願意去到教師的現場去了所以這邊的待遇合理的部分包括"},{"start":859.587,"end":883.54,"text":"跟所謂的消費者指數的差異性都是差很大那這一部分我想要請部長這是真的非常重要因為沒有好的教師就沒有好的人才培育那我們又是以特別以人才的培育的優秀人才為主的這樣一個國家就是可以部長您是不是可以承諾針對這邊的教師的待遇合理的部分這麼多項在部分做一下的一個在"},{"start":884.84,"end":904.971,"text":"在半年之內做一個評估報告或是在一定時間內做一個評估報告必須跟大家大眾公布感謝委員的一個關心怎麼樣讓老師能夠穩定而且對教育工作的一個價值的一個肯定事實上委員所關心的是教育部一直把它列為我們一個重點那當然"},{"start":905.851,"end":921.293,"text":"我想我们这个方向那个重点那什么时间你不能够旷日费时明年等下在一年之后又出现了我必须要跟我们讲就是说我们在定定很多方式的时候它一定是从整体的一个国家的一个各个行业领域的一个考量"},{"start":921.693,"end":936.779,"text":"但是他一定是怎麼樣提升老師的待遇合理的一個待遇我想這是我們你要應該要提供一個時間點例如說在半年之內好不好半年之內我們先提供一個評估報告沒有說要做什麼但是先出評估報告出來可以嗎可以"},{"start":937.119,"end":966.046,"text":"可以 那另外一部分就是在退休的部分現在看到的所得替代率在軍人部分已經調到80%警校這邊因為有這樣的再如果撥補下去也大概80%那可是老師這部分60%這又是很大的部分想要請問在如果公教人員退休條例的修正這部分雖然是可能是全序部這邊要進行那教育部您的部長您作為教師的這個領域教育界的這個大家長您的探訪隊隊退休只要60%"},{"start":967.406,"end":990.468,"text":"你的看法是如何我老師的許多的待遇包含退休我當然是全力這個樂觀其成也會這個支持那當然這裡邊誠如剛才委員所講的他有許多的這些制度我們當然一定會在關鍵時刻表達我們的立場那當然是國家的一個整體來看他當然有一定的一個整體上的一些規劃"},{"start":992.17,"end":1005.042,"text":"我想 您是教育部長 應該表現出來一個支持挺教師的態度那至於整個桌下預算怎麼等等的 算是行政院的考量嗎是說您是挺教師的嘛 對不對待遇再提開 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝昭緯 謝謝主席謝謝蘇編昭緯質詢 部長請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":764,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（12時7分）有請鄭部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：召委好。"],["劉委員書彬：部長好。今天要跟你討論的是關於學校退場的議題，我們看到在暑假期間有3所苗栗的高中職，還有1所臺南的高職、1所彰化的高職學校退場，我們關心的是學生的權益、校地預計何時規劃以及後續的時程如何進行，還有就是是否會依照公益性的原則，回歸教育用途處理。在助理準備的這些資料裡面，雖然我們現在看到的學生數都是少數，但是學生的受教權跟教師的工作權是很重要的。想請問部長或者是署長，對於校內學生的受教權，我們可以看到現在的人數是比較少的，但是在教師的工作權這部分，你們處理的原則是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，對於學生的受教權，若有學校退場，我們一定會就近安排，包含他可能衍生出的交通費，在整個退場的機制裡面，我們大概都會對學生給予一些協助。另外是老師的工作權或者是薪資，事實上以這幾年來看，我們在私校退場部分都有一個非常標準的SOP處理機制，確保老師工作權的權益。"],["劉委員書彬：這個SOP，就請部長之後給本辦公室。","另外，更重要的是校地的問題，我們看到的是有幾個在苗栗跟彰化的部分，教育部有注意到必須不得將其轉為私用，比如做長照或者是做養生的，你們給予補助，那還算是好事情，但是時程上面，請問校地在時間上大概多久會處理完？有沒有跟地方政府或是跨部會做協調？這在你們報告當中呈現出來了。"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告，針對私校退場之後，它的校地在完成解散清算之後，才有辦法去做校地的處理。行政院有組成一個針對退場學校校地的使用，會先徵詢各部會，看有沒有部會需要這樣的校地做公務使用。以大專校院來講，已經有非常多的部會或縣市政府……"],["劉委員書彬：好，那我知道了，這部分就是有談到所謂結算的部分嘛！還沒有進行？"],["楊司長玉惠：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那大概就可以知道現在有這幾種處理方式啦！那教育部是不是可以承諾，它必須都是以教育公益為優先考量？是不是能做這樣的承諾呢？"],["楊司長玉惠：以公益優先是沒有問題，一定是公用的，至於這個公用是不是在教育方面，或是例如衛福部可能有長照的需求，經濟部有產業人才培育的需求等等，這個就看承接的部會。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這部分有注意到公益，我覺得教育部或政府有這樣的承諾是好事情。","我們現在看到的是明道大學，我想應該同樣是這個問題，他們還沒有清算嘛！是不是這樣子？另外包括清大對中華大學的規劃，我們看到有這樣的發展是好事情。但還有老師喔！所以這邊特別要注意到老師這部分，我想這個教育部就繼續再追蹤做一下報告，謝謝。","我們繼續再往下看，少子化的問題不只是涉及到現在已經要退場的，依照全國私立學校產業工會的分析，大家看這個表，現在是一個低潮，但是到129年的時候，學生數會從現在的17萬掉到十四萬多，請問一下教育部針對這樣的情況有什麼樣的規劃嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告，針對少子女化這樣的狀況，當然是不可逆，除了我們持續透過行政院少子女化專案辦公室增加國內生員的……"],["劉委員書彬：請問一下是不是只有退場？"],["楊司長玉惠：是，它當然可以轉……"],["劉委員書彬：是只能退場，現在是人數少，可是有沒有機會是質上面的提升？我們現在看到教育部招了國外的學生進來，這是好事情，包括新南向專班等等。可是學校的這部分，好像只針對外國學生有利，但是本國學生的部分，是不是有增加像在私校技職體系當中的考量，讓他們配合到不是只有像長照這些體系，更重要的是在於包括像AI或者是醫療的部分等等。有這個考慮嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：有，跟委員報告，這幾年政府對於技職教育的資源投入其實非常多，我們對於整個技職校院的設備，配合國家5+2的產業發展，我們有建了很多的人才培育基地。像今年我們又針對百工百業AI人才的培育，也提供我們的學校相關設備……"],["劉委員書彬：你這個宣傳夠嗎？針對像有些從中學進入到高職的時候，其實在國中結束就很重要，這個宣傳夠嗎？現場可能都沒有聽到這樣的聲音。"],["楊司長玉惠：中等學校這部分我想國教署這邊也是有一些計畫來推動，我剛剛報告的是技專的部分。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，感謝委員關心，確實少子化一定會對高教產生的衝擊，可是在這一年來，我也跟我們大學的校長做觀念的分享。少子化如果是客觀的事實，除了引進僑外生來豐富我們產業的需求、人才的培育；另外還從終身學習的觀點來看，為什麼我們那麼多的大學、一百五十幾所的大學，都在想那些18歲所謂未來15萬或者14萬的學生？我們能不能從終身學習的角度思考產業上一些不斷的科技發展？30歲以後應該隨時能夠讓他有機會回到大學，也就是說我們未來的招生、大學的經營，不應該只在想18歲，而是要想怎麼樣去把自己……"],["劉委員書彬：好，部長說得很好，但是很重要的是如果人才一直少，我想院裡面要做所謂跨部會的政策，讓人才或是生育率能夠提升，這是非常重要的，這是國安問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：對，人口政策上的一個……"],["劉委員書彬：好，我知道部長有這樣的宣示，是終身學習，這樣做也是蠻好的。","我們繼續看另一個問題，在學習歷程的部分我們看到的是在暑假當中有一個很大的新聞，經過造假的事件之後，他重新透過分科測驗進來了。想問教育部，從學習歷程造假這件事發現這個制度跟運作有什麼問題？更重要的是我們看到有團體提到浪費很龐大的資源，事實上有1.5萬份是無人審閱，教師疲於應付，還有造假難以查核。你既然做這個部分，很重要的就是要去查核，更重要的是，教育部大考中心採用學習歷程的目的，應該是作為讓他去了解這個考試、了解整個學習，甚至是自己生涯的規劃嘛！對吧？我想問的是在這種情況之下，教育部看到什麼問題呢？"],["廖司長高賢：學習歷程檔案的這個部分，就大學端來講，確實如同剛才委員所說的，是這些老師在審查學生的過程中，看他學習的整個過程，所以我們也透過相關跟高中端以及大學端的討論，希望能夠針對學習歷程檔案未來怎麼樣更符合檢視出來是這個學生如實表現的部分，也有做了一些精進的探討。"],["劉委員書彬：你們有查核嗎？"],["廖司長高賢：我們目前是用宣導的形式鼓勵高中端的學生，在填寫學習歷程檔案的時候要如實填寫，這個部分我們有加強宣導，也有印製手冊給這些學生參考。在高中端的部分，我想國教署在老師教導學生、輔導學生的部分也有做相關的改進。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我們看到國教盟提出來的，這部分造成很多的成果沒辦法展現，而且學生的學習效果並沒有這麼樣如實呈現，甚至有家庭背景影響、校別等的差異。他們提供的建議是，如果你把它跟升學考試結合在一起的時候，是一個大的問題，它本身的目的是要讓大家可以重視學習的效果等等，這部分請問教育部有沒有一些改革方案？你剛剛所說的要去查核或是學倫的宣導等等都是好事情，可是這部分還是必須回歸學習歷程當中很核心的部分，就是要重視他自己學習，而不是跟升學掛鈎。想問教育部的改革方向當中，有沒有考慮到廢除或是全面改制？"],["廖司長高賢：跟委員報告，我們今年有委託一個研究團隊，他們指出其實我們大學……"],["劉委員書彬：是這個嗎？「作伙學」嗎？"],["廖司長高賢：是，相關的研究指出，其實老師在審查這些學生的備審資料當中，學習歷程檔案是他們重要的一個參考，也可以看出學生在整個高中學習階段的一些學習潛力在哪裡。這一份報告我們會後可以提供給委員參考。雖然高中端也調查到說……"],["劉委員書彬：對，您說的沒有錯，這個是參考，非常好，但是既然它是參考，就應該不要算在升學的計分裡面。部長的想法呢？"],["廖司長高賢：跟委員報告，其實學習歷程檔案是配合108年課綱的實施，來讓……"],["劉委員書彬：是，但是跟升學掛鈎這樣是好的嗎？"],["廖司長高賢：在學生的審查資料當中，學生可以充分展現自己，老師審查的時候可以讓他們有一個審查的依據。當時的……"],["劉委員書彬：對，審查依據，但是如果把它計分其實就比較可惜了，會浪費很多的人力，而且學生要做的話就是效果應該呈現，但是計分要去考慮要不要放進來。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心，確實我們內部也在跟大學端做一些討論和研議，我們肯定學習歷程檔案對一個學生整個學習紀錄，包含他整個生涯發展的一些想像，怎麼樣去連結，但是要不要變成必備的一個要件，還是尊重各大學、各系所自己的規範。我們內部事實上也在做這樣的討論，等我們有一個……"],["劉委員書彬：是不是大概半年之內，再下一次之前有個方法？"],["鄭部長英耀：等跟大學端有一個更積極的討論結果，我想我們會來說明。"],["劉委員書彬：好。現在最後一個議題，很快，就是教師荒的議題，因為我也要遵守自己的規則。教師荒的問題剛才好幾位委員都已經提到，最重要的，我針對的會是在……因為全教總有他們的訴求，教育部長您也都應該聽到了，我想要特別強調的是在待遇的合理上面，整體看有本薪、導師費、行政加給、特殊、偏遠、鐘點費，鐘點費可能是在代理教師跟兼任教師方面要比較重視的。這些部分的話我想當初國教盟或是全教總都提到的是行政職務的加給，就已經讓教育部有非常多的意見，都說應該以公教一體把它駁回啦！這個部分我想要請教的是，因為部長跟國教署彭署長也知道，教師荒這個問題已經讓包括師培生就算是拿到證照，他也不願意進到教師的現場去了。在待遇合理的部分，跟消費者指數的差異性都是差很大。這一部分我想要請部長，這是真的非常重要，因為沒有好的教師就沒有好的人才培育，我們又是特別以培育優秀人才為主的國家。部長是不是可以承諾，針對教師待遇合理的部分，這邊這麼多項，在半年或是在一定時間之內做一個評估報告並跟大眾公布？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的關心，怎麼樣讓老師能夠穩定而且對教育工作價值肯定，事實上委員所關心的事，教育部一直把它列為重點。當然我想我們這個方向……"],["劉委員書彬：重點是什麼時間？你不能又曠日廢時，可能再一年之後明年又出現了。"],["鄭部長英耀：我必須要跟委員講，我們在訂定很多方式的時候，一定是從整體國家各個行業領域考量，但是一定是怎麼樣提升老師合理的待遇。我想這是我們……"],["劉委員書彬：你應該要提供一個時間點，例如說在半年之內好不好？半年之內先提供評估報告，沒有說要做什麼，但是先提出評估報告，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以。"],["劉委員書彬：好。另外就是退休的部分，現在看到所得替代率在軍人已經達到80%，警消因為有撥補下去也達到大概80%，可是老師到60%，這又是很大部分。公教人員退休條例的修正這部分雖然可能是銓敘部要進行，想要請問教育部部長，您作為教師領域、教育界的大家長，您對於老師退休所得替代率只到60%而已的看法是如何？"],["鄭部長英耀：老師許多的待遇，包含退休，我當然是樂觀其成，也會支持，當然誠如剛才委員所講的，有許多的制度我們一定會在關鍵時刻表達我們的立場，那當然從國家整體來看……"],["劉委員書彬：是應該要請他們對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：它當然有一定整體上的一些規劃。"],["劉委員書彬：我想您是教育部長，應該表現出支持、挺教師的態度，至於整個國家預算什麼等等是行政院長要考量的。"],["鄭部長英耀：這當然是無庸置疑的。"],["劉委員書彬：你是挺教師的嘛！對不對？待遇要提高。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝書彬召委質詢，部長請回座。"],["主席（劉委員書彬）：現在請陳瑩委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidha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次長還要跑去美國去跟他們溝通而且可以即時性的來維護這些使用者的權利另外一個部分部長你可以看得出來哪一個是假帳號"},{"start":256.8,"end":271.474,"text":"我看不出來看不出來對不對Meta部分不是一個人一個帳號其中有一些小帳這小帳就可以任意來作為帶風向散播假消息抹黑別人抹黑的成本是最低的這沒有辦法管嗎"},{"start":272.84,"end":300.697,"text":"是在这方面我们分两部分来讲第一个就是我们现在有要求Meta去把那些跟诈骗集团有关的账号把它利用AI的方式把它找出来然后把它打诈的部分你们有在努力我知道那另外就是说中长期来讲因为Meta就如同委员讲的它因为他们并没有做身份的认证所以这个是造成我们不管是在关键嘛重点是身份身份来了有一个方式是"},{"start":301.698,"end":327.109,"text":"LINE的部分一樣LINE的例子LINE的部分它就強綁這個手機的號碼強綁手機的號碼的部分它就可以建立這個造謠救責機制本期最近都是受害者無山投水庫就是這種狀況之前有更多的狀況都是如此所以說你要如何把這個扣連起來這是第一個要揭露的地方就是要如何救責讓它要綁手機手機就可以追蹤到人"},{"start":327.749,"end":350.609,"text":"身份他就可以救責這是第一第二個部分還有這一次呢中國也來湊熱鬧還有你透過這個登入帳號的部分你發現那個加86這個86的部分就是中國的帳號來假戴假冒說台灣人這麼戴帳號是不是國家的這個部分呢發文國家的部分也應該要予以揭露才對"},{"start":351.309,"end":368.071,"text":"是 沒錯這個事實上就是我們希望努力的方向這個有技術的問題有法規的問題那另外還有就是商業面我們希望有這個機制然後我們現在先跟委員報告就是說我們跟LINE已經有這個機制就是說如果你加你的單位號是國外來的話它上面就會出現一個警示"},{"start":369.092,"end":390.846,"text":"對 沒有錯你就按照LINE的方式來管理Meta嘛 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Line Google TikTok"},{"start":41.788,"end":58.359,"text":"對於Telegram跟WhatsApp這個事實上比較低一點可是事實上來講大家以為說這裡的Telegram用得少其實Telegram其實用得蠻多的Telegram這部分你們什麼時候可以列款什麼時候比較積極一點"},{"start":59.039,"end":84.44,"text":"OK 剛剛委員報告我們現在目前列管基本上是依照打詐專法那打詐專法的立法的概念基本上是只管廣告不管私人的通訊也不管私人產生的訊息所謂的那個user generated content我們這個地方是不管的那因為在LINE它是上面是有廣告的所以我們可以管我們把LINE列管可是Telegram跟那個我們剛才講還有什麼WhatsApp"},{"start":85.12,"end":112.543,"text":"上面基本上是我了解是沒有廣告嘛所以我們在法律上我們沒辦法去目前並沒有法源依據可以列管那另外來講的話因為這個是牽涉到憲法保障的秘密通訊的自由所以對於這個個人的通訊我們並沒有辦法去看政府我們並沒有辦法去看他可是我要強調是詐騙的訊息公共安全兒少的性影像各自的外洩政府的文件這個都是"},{"start":113.704,"end":134.325,"text":"很重要的領域啊 這個不是你剛剛講的說這個私人的去通訊 不是啊這是公領域啊 這些都是公領域啊委員講得沒錯 一旦犯法犯法的時候我們這個警方就有這個權利權利查他私人通訊 這時候就不受那個憲法的那個那我現在就跟你講 你們有管"},{"start":135.186,"end":153.516,"text":"Meta、Line、Google、TikTok但是對於Telegram你們認為說市場率低不管了WhatsApp也沒有不是因為市場率低就如同我剛才講的因為是廣告的問題我們之前列管是因為我們打造專法規定的是我們可以管廣告但是私人的通訊裡面打造專法來來來你看喔台灣人少用Telegram嗎"},{"start":157.998,"end":173.756,"text":"PTT 揭秘老司機詐騙集團的最愛就Telegram是啊 這個我們都知道所以你們現在等於是等於是完全不管啦這個東西不是完全不管那個束手無策啊跟委員報告我們是一個台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家"},{"start":174.477,"end":200.182,"text":"我們當然是說我們政府也希望說我在打造的時候我都可以去偷看每一個人的那個內容但是不能 我們是一個法治的國家我不能去看個人他如果在犯罪發生之下沒有 所以你給我答案說目前Telegram還是不管所以他還是不管不是不管 我剛才已經講了我剛才就講說他如果說已經犯罪的話那檢調就可以去管了你不要管了 LINE你不要管了因為LINE 我已經講過了LINE因為它有廣告所以我們可以管它廣告的部分"},{"start":201.641,"end":214.203,"text":"所以Telegram是沒有廣告目前是它沒有廣告啊確定嗎網友指出來Telegram的照片它的品質都優於Line"},{"start":216.992,"end":243.737,"text":"這不是廣告這是私人的通訊訊息比如說我如果傳一個照片給委員的話那警方也不能看我們如果我們沒有犯罪的話警方也不能看我傳給你的照片他現在犯罪了他犯罪了犯罪的話那就是有警政署他那時候就是已經取得法源的依據他就可以去搜索那現在另外當然還有一個問題是說像Telegram這個都還有WhatsApp這都是國外的公司那他並沒有落地當然是WhatsApp現在已經賣給Meta了"},{"start":244.577,"end":250.02,"text":"那我們可以透過META那邊去請求他的協助你們再研究一下好不好第二個題目 低軌衛星現在進行的怎麼樣"},{"start":259.531,"end":273.837,"text":"OK 在低軌衛星方面目前我們速發布就是用OneWeb這個衛星系統我們已經有很多的接收站我們應該現在目前唯一有190幾個什麼時候開放給民間用這個應該是 保險"},{"start":276.365,"end":302.859,"text":"地軌衛星以現在來講兩岸這麼緊張隨時要打仗的地軌衛星很重要喔發委就我們所了解中華電信的OneWeb的執照已經取得NC的許可了所以大概在季節大概就會開放給民間使用近期是多近期啊 多快一個月 一個禮拜現在只是看中華電信準備好以後隨時可以在市場上賣就是說法令上現在都完全沒問題了法令上都沒問題 這個你們管的吧 這個你們管不管"},{"start":304,"end":326.579,"text":"中華電信不是我們管的但低軌衛星是我們管的低軌衛星是你管的 對啊那執照上面都已經發了嘛所以現在就是看中華電信什麼時候他要開始他的商業營運那因為這是商務業行為我不能硬性規定他哪一天要發那另外還有就是Kyper我們現在也在跟那個Amazon的Kyper在談這個合作Kyper是那個Amazon他新開發了一個那個低軌衛星系統"},{"start":327.379,"end":346.679,"text":"那我們希望說除了OneWeb以外我們還有另外的Kyper作為另外一種選擇那我們也希望說這個Kyper以後也會有這個商業的營運那目前的瞭解Kyper可能的營運商會是那個大家比較知道正面度高的Elon Musk他的Starlink我們不用"},{"start":348.036,"end":366.278,"text":"對 因為那個是法令的規定我們現在台灣的法令規定就是說這種電信那個營運商他必須有50%以上的股權是由台灣人掌控但是Elon Musk一直不願意答應這些事情所以除非是我們修法或是Elon Musk他同意就是說不再跟我們有沒有去跟他接觸嘛"},{"start":366.939,"end":374.971,"text":"我沒有見到Elon Musk抱歉我剛上任我還沒見過他有沒有想要跟他接觸一下因為畢竟這一塊是他的專長是 當然有機會想去跟他接觸一下吧好 謝謝 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部長 速發部已經成立三年了那掌理數位通訊傳播 還有數位基礎建設 資安防務 還有數位治理那當初希望可以將台灣打造成智慧國家那也希望整合各部會的數位資源那在過去 推動數位政策的時候 部會之間需要非常高的協調成本"},{"start":35.817,"end":59.346,"text":"所以當初也希望速發部 數位發展部的角色可以協調各單位那本席看到速發部還有很多政策依然是理念超前 資訊落後 劃分雜亂那為什麼這麼說 部長根據省紀部今年公布的114年度中央政府總預算半年結算的查核報告那它明確地點名速發部在AI政策推動上統籌不足 成效不彰"},{"start":60.166,"end":87.636,"text":"那報告中他也指出速發部僅被動配合國發會還有國科會審議數位發展的計畫他沒有辦法掌握AI相關計畫執行情形難以發揮統籌推動還有管理的功能那他更指出目前中央尚無專責單位統籌審查AI的應用計畫導致各單位各機關重複開發相似功能的AI系統產生預算重複投資風險部長您知道嗎"},{"start":90.252,"end":105.501,"text":"是 我的確是注意到有這樣的現象那也如同委員所講的目前的確我們國家AI的整體計畫的推動是在國發會跟國科會然後這個溝通的方面我也覺得說我們之前溝通做得不夠好"},{"start":106.321,"end":127.648,"text":"那我本身是來自於業界而且我本身算是AI方面的我一直在從事AI方面有關的行業工作所以我們一定會加強跟其他部會的溝通而且我們會更主動更積極因為我們認為說在AI的發展上面就是AI產業發展上面我們速發部一定有很大的角色在裡面"},{"start":128.448,"end":147.221,"text":"是 部長雖然蘇發布你們有提出五年期的AI發展戰略計畫您也來自業界嘛但是蘇發布目前還是沒有建立跨部會的KPI還有共享平台那截至目前沒有辦法提供AI的專案清澈還有預算的整合報表請部長說明什麼時候可以建立"},{"start":148.442,"end":160.714,"text":"因為這個預算我們的書發部很多預算是來自國科會跟國發會由他們那邊去進行分配的所以也因為這個原因所以為什麼說關於AI的國家型的整體的計畫還是會由國發會跟國科會那邊來主導"},{"start":165.379,"end":177.613,"text":"因為這個預算我們知道說政府的機構的運作它事實上預算本身就是它的計畫的一部分計畫就是預算也可以某種程度來講就是這樣子那因為這個預算是來自於國科會跟國發會所以這個我們"},{"start":180.296,"end":195.401,"text":"那是不是由速發部主動來像國科會還有國發會就是你們一起來建立一個協調小組那有行政院的政務委員然後就是納入國科會像是還有教育部經濟部然後你們"},{"start":196.481,"end":219.032,"text":"形成一個國家級的AI發展不是各自為政那什麼時候可以做到呢事實上這個事情我一直在做我以前在當次長的時候我就常常找那個國科會主委和國發會主委我們常常在討論這方面的事情那我現在既然已經那個擔任部長那我當然會持續的跟國科會跟國發會那個更密切的討論而且我希望我們有更多的角色"},{"start":219.432,"end":236.218,"text":"是 部長 神經部他還有發現很多重複開發的客服型AI那文件分類AI都是同樣的功能系統那造成年度的預算浪費估計是兩億那本系列注意到另外一個數據還有計畫速發部在今年辦理的AI賠利的工作坊一共有920億人參"},{"start":237.859,"end":251.736,"text":"參訊但實際導入AI的機關只有31%它的落地率不高那顯示目前速發部在推動相關的政策還是相關的政策它是在停留在宣導然後還有訓練的階段市長你怎麼看"},{"start":252.937,"end":267.321,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛委員有提到譬如說那個客服AI就各部會重複開發的這個事情事實上這件事情在我們黃錢部長擔任部長的時候就已經注意到了所以本來我們是要做這些事情後來我們黃錢部長跟我都認為說其實像這樣的產品就是說客服譬如說"},{"start":274.143,"end":296.386,"text":"各部会的民众同宿的客服的AI这种系统其实由民间来开发就好这个对民间的资讯产业来讲是一个很大的商机我们应该由民间的产业去开发成这种产品然后卖给各个部会而不是各个部会各自去开发而所谓的各个部会各自去开发其实都是各个部会各自去有它自己的标案"},{"start":296.866,"end":325.14,"text":"所以這個也是我上任以來一直在強調的一件事情就是說台灣的軟體產業不能一直在走那個project就是專案型的計畫而是應該要多去走這個product就是同樣一套系統開發一次但是可以給很多的客戶使用我們希望往這個方向發展目前有這個能力來擔任主要的協調平台嗎是 我們事實上因為我以前在當市長的時候我在這個地方我常常擔任這個協調的角色"},{"start":326.42,"end":342.342,"text":"本先生有看到您說您的規劃是現在要做的就是建立速發部這個系統讓各部門可以順可以流暢的運作那速發部的角色接下來有沒有明確的要提出整合或是改進的方案去協調各部會你說在AI的方面我們具體的政策當然是"},{"start":343.163,"end":366.301,"text":"如同我在業務報告中五大政策工具就是算力資料人才還有行銷還有資金那這個事情譬如說資金就是跟國發會我們的100億資金是來自於國發會然後呢人才的部分當然是跟國科會因為那邊也要那個整合教育部然後在那個算力部分我們跟那個國科會我們有明確的分工那個算力如果是"},{"start":367.743,"end":388.859,"text":"教育跟公部門所需要的算力由國科會的國網中心來提供如果是產業界它需要進行開發的話就會由數發部的數產署來提供我只是舉幾個例子這個部分我一直在做溝通的工作我們數發部整體也都在做溝通的工作我們希望減少重複的投資"},{"start":389.219,"end":410.857,"text":"有關AI人才的培訓嘛那這個培莉的工作坊一共有921個人參訓那速發部也說明年AI人才希望可以有3500名希望培訓3500名那今年也有提出AI十大建設的計畫是十年嘛那十年是目標目標的人數是多少"},{"start":412.569,"end":427.34,"text":"跟委員報告是我上任以來我在這方面我的想法比較不一樣譬如說3500人是35000人這個人數都太少我們一定要利用到民間的力量您知道AI十大建設十年下來希望能夠培育多少AI人才嗎"},{"start":431.659,"end":456.165,"text":"12萬 其中有一個關鍵在於說我怎樣定義AI人才這個就是我們速發部現在正在做的我們現在就出了一個AI產業人才指引還有一個AI公務人才指引正在跟人總一起討論我們首先必須定義好什麼樣叫做AI人才譬如說如果說我只是會用chatter GPA我就叫做AI人才的話這個我要訓練多少都是可以的"},{"start":456.645,"end":479.663,"text":"但是我們第一個我們必須定義出來什麼樣的人才的標準本席是建議速發部應該要建立AI的計畫資料庫還有AI年度的成效追蹤系統因為本席有看到智慧政府的治理雖然速發部有提出可是目前都沒有可以量化的成果指標關於KPI這個部分速發部要怎麼來明確的定出來呢"},{"start":480.363,"end":498.676,"text":"數位政府的方面嗎對OK數位政府的方面我們那個當然是有一個指標還是人才的訓練的數量那就如同我剛才講的就是這邊指的是KPI因為沒有具體的可以量化的這個成果指標那速發部要怎麼如何來掌握政策的落實它實際的進度"},{"start":501.147,"end":517.596,"text":"跟委員報告我們提出後面的五年的計畫裡面就包括說每年會有五個領域裡面會有三個領域包括十到二十項的AI的服務包括到內政財政然後勞動等等這些的領域這個指標都有"},{"start":517.996,"end":544.494,"text":"在我们计划书里面那也有填在这个AI实在建设部长那本期最后建议因为审计部已经明确的纠正书发布AI推动不利那书发布多久可以提出AI的政策政策的改进的报告那个如果是政策的那个改进的报告其实我今天的那个那个业务报告那其中里面也要列出跨部会协调跟资源整合的KPI成效那什么时候可以提出"},{"start":546.576,"end":573.711,"text":"那個委員我們可不可以就是會後我們提供書面資料因為要看什麼樣的那個因為協調這個事情就是一種長期性在進行的事情如果說針對速發部推動政策就是審計部指出的推動的不利那也需要就是建立一個平台像是剛才本席有提到不管是教育部還是國科會國發會那不要造成資源的浪費那這些報告希望速發部可以盡快提出OK好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時57分）主席，麻煩請數發部林部長。"],["主席：林部長請。"],["林部長宜敬：邱委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。數發部已經成立3年了嘛！掌理數位通訊傳播、數位基礎建設、資安防護，還有數位治理，當初希望可以將臺灣打造成智慧國家，也希望整合各部會的數位資源。在過去推動數位政策的時候，部會之間需要非常高的協調成本，所以當初也希望數發部的角色可以協調各單位，但是本席看到數發部還有很多政策，依然是理念超前、資訊落後、劃分雜亂，為什麼這麼說？","部長，根據審計部今年公布的114年度中央政府總預算半年結算查核報告，它明確的點名數發部在AI政策推動上統籌不足、成效不彰，報告中也指出數發部僅被動配合國發會，還有國科會審議數位發展的計畫，沒有辦法掌握AI相關計畫執行情形，難以發揮統籌推動還有管理的功能，它更指出目前中央尚無專責單位統籌審查AI的應用計畫，導致各單位各機關重複開發相似功能的AI系統，產生預算重複投資風險，部長，您知道嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：是，委員，我的確是注意到有這樣的現象，也如同委員所講的，目前的確我們國家AI整體計畫的推動是在國發會跟國科會，然後這個溝通的方面，我也覺得我們之前溝通做得不夠好。我本身是來自業界，而且我本身之前一直在有關AI方面的行業工作，所以我們一定會加強跟其他部會的溝通，而且我們會更主動、更積極，因為我們認為在AI的發展上面，尤其是AI產業發展上面，我們數發部一定有很大的角色在裡面。"],["邱委員若華：是，部長，雖然數發部有提出5年期的AI發展戰略計畫，您也來自業界嘛！但是數發部目前還是沒有建立跨部會的KPI還有共享平台，截至目前沒有辦法提供AI的專案清冊還有預算的整合報表，請部長說明什麼時候可以建立？"],["林部長宜敬：OK，因為數發部很多預算來自國科會跟國發會，由他們進行分配的，基於這個原因，所以關於AI的整體國家型計畫還是會由國發會跟國科會主導。我們知道就政府機構的運作而言，事實上預算本身就是計畫的一部分、計畫就是預算，某種程度來講就是這樣，因為這項預算來自國發會跟國發會，所以我們數發部這邊比較難……"],["邱委員若華：那麼是不是可以由數發部主動向國科會還有國發會要求一起建立一個協調小組，由行政院政務委員納入國科會、教育部、經濟部，形成一個國家級的AI發展計畫，而不是各自為政？什麼時候可以做到？"],["林部長宜敬：事實上，這件事情我一直在做，我以前當次長的時候就常常找國科會主委和國發會主委討論這方面的事情。現在我既然已經擔任部長，當然會持續跟國科會及國發會更密切地討論，而且我希望我們有更多角色。"],["邱委員若華：是。部長，審計部還發現很多重複開發的客服型AI、文件分類AI，都是同樣功能系統，所造成的年度預算浪費估計是2億元。本席也注意到另外一個數據和計畫，數發部在今年辦理的AI培力工作坊一共有921人參訓，但實際導入AI的機關只有31%，落地率不高，顯示目前數發部推動相關政策還停留在宣導還有訓練階段，部長怎麼看？"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝委員。對於剛才委員提到譬如說各部會重複開發客服AI的事情，事實上在黃前部長擔任部長的時候已經注意到了，所以我們本來要做這件事情。後來黃前部長和我都認為像這樣的產品，也就是各部會接受民眾投訴的客服AI系統，其實由民間開發就好，這對於民間的資訊產業來講是很大的商機，應該由民間產業開發成這種產品，然後賣給各個部會，而不是各個部會各自開發，所謂各個部會各自開發其實是各部會有自己的標案。這也是我上任以來一直強調的一件事，就是臺灣的軟體產業不能一直走project的專案型計畫，應該多走product計畫，就是同樣一套系統開發一次，但是可以給很多客戶使用，我們希望往這個方向發展。"],["邱委員若華：部長，你認為數發部目前有能力擔任主要的協調平臺嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：事實上，我以前在當次長的時候，也常常在這個地方擔任協調的角色。"],["邱委員若華：本席看到，您說依照您的規劃，現在要做的就是建立數發部這個系統，讓各部門可以流暢地運作。那麼就數發部的角色而言，接下來是否要明確提出整合或改進方案以協調各部會？"],["林部長宜敬：在AI方面，我們具體的政策如同我在業務報告所提的五大政策工具，就是算力、資料、人才、行銷、資金，在這件事情上，比如說資金就是跟國發會合作，我們的100億元資金來自國發會。人才部分當然是跟國科會合作，因為那邊也要整合教育部。在算力部分，我們跟國科會有明確分工，如果是教育、公部門所需要的算力，由國科會的國網中心提供，如果是產業界需要進行開發，就會由數發部數產署提供。我只是舉幾個例子，在這部分，我一直在做溝通的工作，我們數發部整體也都在做溝通的工作，希望減少重複的投資。"],["邱委員若華：部長，關於AI人才的培訓，培力工作坊一共有921人參訓，數發部也說希望明年AI人才可以培訓3,500名。今年還提出AI十大建設計畫，是十年嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員若華：那十年的目標人數是多少？"],["林部長宜敬：我上任以來，在這方面的想法比較不一樣。譬如說3,500人、3萬5,000人這樣的人數都太少，我們一定要利用民間的力量。"],["邱委員若華：那您知道AI十大建設十年下來希望能夠培育多少AI人才嗎？"],["林署長俊秀：12萬人。"],["林部長宜敬：12萬人。其中一個關鍵在於怎麼定義AI人才，這就是數發部正在做的。我們現在出了AI公務人才指引，正在跟人總討論，首先必須定義好什麼叫做AI人才。如果只是會用ChatGPT就叫AI人才的話，要訓練多少都是可以的，所以第一個我們必須定義出什麼是人才標準。"],["邱委員若華：本席建議數發部應該建立AI計畫資料庫，還有AI年度成效追蹤系統。因為本席看到，數發部雖然提出智慧政府的治理，可是目前都沒有可以量化的成果指標，那麼關於KPI這個部分，數發部要怎麼明確訂出來呢？"],["林部長宜敬：數位政府方面嗎？"],["邱委員若華：對。"],["林部長宜敬：在數位政府方面，當然有一個指標還是人才訓練的數量。如同我剛才講的……"],["邱委員若華：本席指的是KPI，沒有可以具體量化的成果指標，數發部要如何掌握政策落實的實際進度？"],["林部長宜敬：我請數位政府司司長。"],["王司長誠明：跟委員報告，在我們提出的後五年計畫裡面就包括每年會在五個領域裡面從三個領域檢視10到20項AI服務，涉及內政、財政、勞動等領域，這些指標都在計畫書裡面，也填在AI十大建設裡面。"],["邱委員若華：沒關係。部長，本席最後建議，因為審計部已經明確糾正數發部AI推動不力，那數發部多久可以提出AI的政策改進報告？"],["林部長宜敬：如果是政策改進報告，其實我今天的業務報告基本上就是AI的政策……"],["邱委員若華：裡面也要列出跨部會協調跟資源整合的KPI成效啊！什麼時候可以提出？"],["林部長宜敬：委員，可不可以容我們會後提供書面資料？因為要看是什麼樣的內容。協調這件事就是一種長期性進行的事情，如果說要很……"],["邱委員若華：只針對數發部推動的政策，就是審計部指出推動不力的部分，也需要建立平臺，像是剛剛本席提到的，不管是教育部或國科會、國發會，不要造成資源的浪費，這些報告希望數發部可以儘快提出。"],["林部長宜敬：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164192","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6f0be4d497ff53f5d32e8c280ed77980fb6741136213cfef65aed41defc5d99185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:47:44 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你在各種不同的單位像地檢署你看都演講防毒"},{"start":167.421,"end":196.625,"text":"你們警察機關也可以做啊地檢署也可以做啊法務部啊很多單位機關團體啊多宣導嘛是不是你民眾無知起碼你對這些公務員啊你讓他認知以後他回去啊對這些民眾啊他也會他的宣導的力量比你電視這個還強因為現在年輕人不看電視了因為電視每天都是那樣的嘛像我的話很多台我都閃掉了根本都不聽你胡說八道些什麼東西所以你這個落實社群的平台責任很重要齁"},{"start":197.792,"end":226.149,"text":"那我要請問部長目前平均的報案大概有34萬件一年34萬件裡面大概有APP證實的應該有APP報案的是34萬件那麼經過查證是18萬件左右大概每個月1萬多件你能不能就像剛才你所講的比如說我用張忠謀先生做主導人做主持人什麼的"},{"start":227.625,"end":246.122,"text":"你收到第一通詐騙的時候你趕快全部都要清查甚至網站把它封鎖你動作要快啊 是不是所以你的封鎖網址你用的時間多長你這個要注意到有沒有方法能夠更進一步的精進"},{"start":247.525,"end":276.437,"text":"是委員講的完全沒錯事實上時間是非常重要的因為現在其實詐騙集團也知道說他如果發一個那個詐騙的廣告或詐騙訊息其實大概在24小時之內都會被我們速發布加上這個Meta還有這個Google 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這個我很關心台馬第四條海嵐另外在前幾天就是10月8號有一條大陸漁船閩連漁60138號漁船這條船在我們公海上它是脫網"},{"start":392.286,"end":415.7,"text":"脫網勾到另外一條船的錨定另外一條船的錨定跟我們第二號海欄又扯在一起然後造成兩星他一共第二號海欄是12星兩星訊號異常也就可能有沒有斷了還是怎麼樣不知道這邊中心馬上就做處理"},{"start":416.502,"end":444.168,"text":"也就是把第二號海纜的兩星的這個斷的部分把它切換切換到三號海纜那現在這邊中華電信已經把它處置完畢也沒有發生什麼損失啦因為這海纜很老舊了嘛你碰一下搞不好啊你來碰我們年輕人的皮膚沒問題碰到老人隨便碰一下骨頭就斷啦那中華電信目前也沒有什麼很大的意見啦"},{"start":445.867,"end":472.46,"text":"也沒有證據顯示是這條漁船因為他在公海上那這件事呢我們的海巡隊把他送到地檢署地檢署大概要用國安法來處置國安法處置那就太嚴重了這條船沒有任何故意的問題他要故意的話他已經跑掉了嘛哪容你海巡去抓他是不是他卻在那邊等候那麼現在中華電信那邊我也跟他談了"},{"start":473.732,"end":501.505,"text":"他說沒有造成其他損害大概就和解了彼岸的國台辦、省台辦很關心啊很關心他們早天要找誰呢現在跟海基會也是聯絡不上跟我們陸委會也是已讀不回那怎麼辦呢 就找到我那所以我在關切這個事情這個事情很像是法務部"},{"start":502.814,"end":525.426,"text":"國安會都知道這個事情因為它不是像我們國安法裡面蓄意的要把它弄斷不是蓄意的而且中華電力目前也沒有任何的損失啦因為那個老舊嘛我希望部長回去瞭解一下部長回去瞭解一下這二號海欄因為兩岸的關係非常的嚴峻你知道嗎"},{"start":526.81,"end":554.433,"text":"有關兩岸的事務我們現在也陸委會海基會也無法去置入去處理所以這個部分他們委託我 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在沙盒沒關係因為你們年底才會正式推出嘛那你在沙盒過程中大家目前給你們的反饋大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":191.528,"end":206.607,"text":"跟委員說明那在篩選的過程中各界的確也提供非常多的寶貴的建議那包含在憑證因為憑證會有發行然後持有跟驗證會有三個角色那針對每個角色他們所要的功能跟流程的串接"},{"start":207.228,"end":229.098,"text":"那乃至於說因為它會有一個石油端的載具它本身的一些操作的UI的調適其實外界提供了非常的很多的寶貴建議那這個也就是剛剛在說在年底的時候我們會釋放出一個試行的版本那版本就是依照各個沙盒環境裡面測試的建議沙盒裡面應該不只UI介面的一個"},{"start":230.44,"end":238.197,"text":"它包含剛剛有說在發證端跟驗證端它整個機制它目前有哪一些驗證的單位可以去使用"},{"start":239.268,"end":250.931,"text":"目前驗證的部分當然在商業界有非常多比如說像租車的業務或者是在於人力證書我們求職需要的人力求職網的一些相關的證書其實還有蠻多的驗證機構都可以陸陸續續在這裡面做測試"},{"start":260.293,"end":283.763,"text":"那因為目前使用的人還不多嘛對不對使用的人還不多就是使用的還沒有真的是還不多那在過程中他好像還沒有你們現在應該還在沙盒過程中還沒有辦法驗證實際上的驗證這個部分嘛比如說現在有辦法就是已經有人是比如說我參加沙盒實驗我是個人那我去某一家廠商去試用這個數位憑證皮夾現在有辦法做到這樣嗎"},{"start":285.323,"end":304.268,"text":"有在进行这样的因为我们现在在沙盒等于说是在实验在prototype的经验的阶段以我的树花部来讲现在就是在我的办公室就是利用这个数位凭证皮夹来访客来登记的时候我们现在已经在试行用这种方式来登记什么人来我的办公室找我"},{"start":304.488,"end":331.595,"text":"那有人用這個去登記嗎有啊真的有你辦公室同仁才有吧當然就是在沙盒的時候一千六可能你們的書法部就佔了三百人了吧那因為你們驗證的情況下你說一千六你們覺得很多嘛一千六你們覺得很多算是蠻踴躍的你們認為蠻踴躍的因為這些人大部分是來做開發的他不是單單使用如果是使用的話一千六百人不是很多但是這一千六百一千六裡面有多少"},{"start":332.575,"end":340.988,"text":"分類你們有帶去區分嗎我覺得一部分是廠商端嘛一部分是使用者嘛裡面大概是多少使用者多少的開發商"},{"start":342.345,"end":371.278,"text":"跟委員報告一下那裡面目前的成員會有商業公司那商業公司就會包含開發跟驗證那當然還有會有一些是屬於那個要做發證發證的機關那像我們在裡面就包含有那個交通部他也在裡面沙盒裡面要去做測試他們的數位駕照的數位化的一些發證的流程都會在這裡面做那我說自然人的部分"},{"start":372.508,"end":400.103,"text":"自然人的部分我們這邊就沒有那麼細分到他的角色對 因為你一個政策要推出來你就是必須要有人去使用他嘛一部分是你的系統的建制必須要完善就是剛剛講的驗證的部分每個機關他要去做他該做的事情那另外一個部分就是你要讓普羅大眾有去使用的意願這才是重點嘛那你推這樣政策才會成功嘛那目前看起來你一千六裡面剛剛聽你們講大部分都還是廠商"},{"start":402.677,"end":417.972,"text":"有興趣這個部分嘛對不對反而是真正的使用者好像對於這個數位 憑證 皮夾到底可以有什麼用可能大家還一直半解那導致於他去申請沙盒試驗的意願並不高目前的情況是這樣嘛"},{"start":418.533,"end":444.943,"text":"我們這個沙盒的目的本來就是給廠商因為這個數位憑證皮夾事實上是算是一個國家的基礎建設一個infrastructure在這上面會有很多的商機因為我們現在我們知道我們在網路上我們常常會認證就是說我有什麼樣的資格譬如說我是不是年滿18歲我是台灣人我有沒有駕照等等這些都是所謂的憑證在民間的廠商他們自然會聞到這個商機"},{"start":447.444,"end":468.293,"text":"民間廠商先不談我先請教部長的部分就是公家政府單位假設年底數位憑證皮夾上路之後每一個公家單位都能夠接受我去使用嗎或者說你需要多久的時間才能夠讓所有的政府機關中央地方的機關都能夠去接收我使用數位憑證皮夾"},{"start":469.511,"end":489.525,"text":"OK 這個部分我們正在努力跟譬如說交通部衛福部內政部等努力溝通因為這個數位憑證評價我們之前那個推數位身份證算是比較負面的經驗我們要非常非常小心所以我們剛開始會選定一些那個風險比較小的應用上面譬如說去超商領貨我們這個數位憑證評價"},{"start":493.268,"end":521.814,"text":"政府單位不會是最優先響應的反而是民間單位我們會還有譬如說在學校我的那個數位學生證這個算是比較風險比較小的我們先從這個地方來進行因為民眾的信心是非常重要的我們希望先取得民眾的信心然後我們再逐步往這些高風險但是大量使用的這些場域那假設我是一個業者那我要響應我政府的政策那我要也接受民眾使用這個數位憑證皮夾"},{"start":522.634,"end":526.108,"text":"那我需要投入的硬體建設的費用大概會是多少"},{"start":527.619,"end":553.516,"text":"這個應該是不高應該是就是因為業者要投入的部分的資源其實很少因為系統的發展或者驗證的開發程式的模組都是我們數位發展部會統一幫大家都做完那對業者來講那可能就是一台虛擬的設備要把這個模組安裝進去跟他跟連結到後端的業務系統基本上的成本會大約啦大約啦"},{"start":554.616,"end":577.715,"text":"成本的話就是一個虛擬機設備的大概可能是那個幾百萬頂多一兩千萬我說最少你假設不是使用者很多的話開發一個可以運行的系統大概就是一兩千萬大概一兩千萬算是蠻大型的因為大部分的 如同我們司長講的大部分軟體我們政府都有所以那目前還是可能比較大型的通路機構才有辦法來做這樣子的一個負擔嗎"},{"start":578.89,"end":601.233,"text":"對當然大型的通路機構對他來講他意義更大那或許包括譬如說好了我們現在建制成本你們說可能幾億三億多四億多這樣的規劃那未來整體政府機關如果說要建制起這套體系讓每個政府機關都能夠讓我使用數位憑證皮夾的話那你們有沒有估過整個行政院需要支持多少的費用才能夠讓每個政府機關都能夠接收"},{"start":603.866,"end":632.876,"text":"是跟委員報告那因為在行政機關的部分有如剛剛所講的所有必要的元件都是我們社會發展部用金被直接統一支付掉那以各機關來講他其實只有很微薄的安裝跟轉資費用那成本其實都不會太高的就是東西而已然後那個系統你們這邊會處理好那以後那年底正式上路嗎好不好那我們明年的時候再一起來檢驗好不好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝召委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時37分）謝謝召委，麻煩邀請林部長。"],["主席：林部長，請。"],["林部長宜敬：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝部長，今天要跟部長就教的是數位憑證皮夾，這是我們今年初開始努力在推的嘛！先確認一下，數位憑證皮夾推出之後，數位身分證確定不會再推了嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：基本上，數位身分證跟數位憑證事實上是不太一樣的概念，數位身分證基本上是……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們還要推？"],["林部長宜敬：我們會推數位憑證。"],["廖委員先翔：對，數位憑證皮夾嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：對，數位身分證是內政部主管的，那個要問內政部，不是我們數發部負責的。"],["廖委員先翔：數位憑證皮夾目前正在進行沙盒實驗，對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那沙盒實驗目前大概有多少個申請單位？"],["林部長宜敬：請我們的司長來回答。"],["莊司長盈志：謝謝委員，目前沙盒大概有1,600個單位在裡面做試驗。"],["廖委員先翔：大概半年的時間就有1,600個單位？"],["莊司長盈志：是，從3月到現在。"],["廖委員先翔：那我們這一次沙盒實驗的經費大概規劃了多少？編列了多少？"],["莊司長盈志：應該說我們是用整體的經費去估，如果是從113年到114年兩年的時間，我們數位憑證皮夾包含前端設計、驗測跟發證的測試這些，目前一共編列的經費是2.5億元。"],["廖委員先翔：2.5億元是在沙盒的部分？"],["莊司長盈志：不是，是整體。"],["廖委員先翔：是整體，那現在先用沙盒來實驗？"],["莊司長盈志：是，是，是。"],["廖委員先翔：目前編列了二點多億元的經費，現在沙盒中有1,600家廠商或者是自然人在做使用，那你們未來怎麼去跳脫這個沙盒？就是說你們怎麼樣去評斷或是檢測它是一個可以上路的狀態？"],["林部長宜敬：我們預計在年底之前就會找幾個試驗的場域來正式上路，我們希望先有幾個成功的案例，因為任何新科技的推展剛開始可能都會有一些問題，不一定是技術的問題，可能是一些操作等等的問題，我們希望一步一步來，先做沙盒，沙盒以後有了prototype，有prototype以後有幾個成功的案例，然後我們再全面大面來推廣。"],["廖委員先翔：年初聽到這個計畫的時候，其實我個人的感覺是我不是很感興趣，你知道嗎？所以我也會懷疑後續推行的成效如何。到目前為止的半年以來，只有1,600個單位或是個人來申請……"],["林部長宜敬：不是個人，1,600個組織那個數量其實很大。"],["廖委員先翔：就是申請的單位，單位不包含人，可能是機關可能是企業等等的。1,600這個數字感覺不是非常的踴躍，但這是在沙盒過程中，沒關係。因為你們年底才要正式推出，那在沙盒實驗過程中，目前大家給你們的反饋大概是怎麼樣？"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員說明，在沙盒過程中，各界的確提供非常多的寶貴建議，包含憑證，因為憑證會有發行、持有跟驗證三個角色，針對每個角色所要的功能跟流程的串接，乃至於持有端載具本身一些操作UI的調適，其實外界提供了非常多的寶貴建議，而這個也就是剛剛在說的，在年底的時候，我們會釋放出一個試行的版本，該版本就是依照各個在沙盒環境測試之後的建議做的。"],["廖委員先翔：沙盒裡面應該不止UI介面的一個……"],["莊司長盈志：不止，它包含在發證端跟驗證端然後整個機制的流程。"],["廖委員先翔：目前有哪些驗證單位去使用？"],["莊司長盈志：目前驗證的部分，當然在商業界有非常多，比如說租車的業務或者是在於人力證書，即求職需要的人力、求職網的一些相關的證書，其實還有滿多的驗證機構都可以陸陸續續在這裡面做測試。"],["廖委員先翔：因為目前使用的人還不多，對不對？使用的人還不多。"],["林部長宜敬：正式使用的還沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：你們現在在沙盒過程中應該還沒有辦法做實際驗證這個部分嘛，比如我參加沙盒實驗，我是個人，那我去某一家廠商試用這個數位憑證皮夾，現在有辦法做到這樣嗎？有這樣在進行嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：我們現在在沙盒等於是在實驗、在prototype的經驗的階段，以我們數發部來講，現在我的辦公室已經在有訪客來的時候，試行利用這個數位憑證皮夾方式登記是什麼人來我的辦公室找我。"],["廖委員先翔：那有人用這個去登記嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：有啊！"],["廖委員先翔：真的有？你們辦公室同仁才有吧？這1,600個裡面，你們數發部就占了300人了吧！在驗證的情況下，你說1,600你們覺得很多嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：算是滿踴躍的。"],["廖委員先翔：你們認為滿踴躍的？"],["林部長宜敬：因為這些人大部分是來做開發的，他不是單單使用，如果只是使用的話，1,600不是很多，但是這1,600個……"],["廖委員先翔：這1,600個裡面有多少分類，你們有大概去區分嗎？就是一部分是廠商端，一部分是使用者，裡面大概有多少是使用者、有多少是開發商？"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員報告一下，目前的成員會有商業公司，那商業公司就會包含開發跟驗證，當然還有一些是屬於要做發證的機關，比如交通部也在沙盒裡面測試他們駕照數位化的一些發證流程，這些都會在這裡面做。"],["廖委員先翔：那自然人的部分呢？"],["莊司長盈志：自然人的部分，我們這邊就沒有那麼細分到他的角色。"],["廖委員先翔：因為你們要推出來一個政策，就必須要有人去使用它，一部分是你的系統的建置必須要完善，就是剛剛講的驗證的部分，每個機關要去做他該做的事情；另外一個部分就是要讓普羅大眾有去使用的意願，這才是重點，這樣你推出的政策才會成功。但剛剛聽你們講，這1,600裡面對這個部分有興趣的大部分都還是廠商，反而是真正的使用者對於這個數位憑證皮夾到底可以有什麼用好像還一知半解，導致他去申請沙盒實驗的意願並不高，目前的情況是這樣嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：我們這個沙盒的目的本來就是給廠商，因為數位憑證皮夾事實上算是一個國家的基礎建設，是一個infrastructure，在這個上面會有很多的商機，因為我們現在網路上常常要認證說我有什麼樣的資格，譬如說我是不是年滿18歲、我是不是臺灣人、我有沒有駕照等等，這些都是所謂的憑證，民間的廠商他們自然會聞到這個商機，然後去開發……"],["廖委員先翔：民間廠商先不討論，我先請教部長的是公家政府單位的部分，假設年底數位憑證皮夾上路之後，每一個公家單位都能夠接受我去使用嗎？或是說你需要多久的時間，才能夠讓所有的政府機關（中央、地方的機關）都能夠去接收我使用數位憑證皮夾？"],["林部長宜敬：這個部分我們正在努力跟譬如說交通部、衛福部、內政部等努力溝通，因為之前推動數位身分證算是比較負面的經驗，因此我們推這個數位憑證皮夾要非常、非常小心，所以我們剛開始會選定一些風險比較小的應用，譬如說去超商領貨，我們這個數位憑證皮夾……"],["廖委員先翔：所以政府單位不會是最優先響應的，反而是民間單位？"],["林部長宜敬：還有譬如說學校的數位學生證，這個算是風險比較小的，我們先從這個地方來進行，因為民眾的信心是非常重要的，我們希望先取得民眾的信心，然後再逐步往這些高風險但是大量使用的場域去推進。"],["廖委員先翔：假設我是一個業者，我要響應政府的政策，要接收民眾使用這個數位憑證皮夾，那我需要投入的硬體建設費用大概會是多少？"],["林部長宜敬：這個應該是不高。"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員補充說明，業者要投入的資源其實很少，因為系統的發證或者驗證的開發、程式的模組，我們數位發展部會統一幫大家都做完，對業者來講，可能就是一台虛擬的設備，要把這個模組安裝進去連結到後端的業務系統，基本上它的成本會……"],["廖委員先翔：大約啦！"],["莊司長盈志：成本的話就是一個虛擬機設備的成本，主要是看……"],["林部長宜敬：少的話大概可能是幾百萬元，頂多一、二千萬元，我是說最少，假設使用者不是很多的話，開發一個可以運行的系統大概就是一、二千萬元，但要花一、二千萬元算是滿大型的，因為就如同我們司長講的，大部分軟體我們政府都已經……"],["廖委員先翔：所以目前可能還是比較大型的通路機構才有辦法來做這樣子的一個負擔嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：對，但對大型的通路機構來講意義更大，因為這個會全區推行。"],["廖委員先翔：現在的建置成本，你們說可能規劃要幾億比如三億多、四億多，那未來整體政府機關如果說要建置起這套體系，讓每個政府機關都能夠讓我使用數位憑證皮夾的話，你們估計過整個行政院需要支持多少費用，才能夠讓每個政府機關都能夠接收？"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員報告，在行政機關的部分，誠如剛剛所講的，所有必要的元件都由我們數位發展部用經費直接統一支付掉，以各機關來講，它其實只有很微薄的安裝跟轉置費用，成本其實都不會太高。"],["廖委員先翔：就是東西而已，系統由你們這邊處理？"],["莊司長盈志：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，年底正式上路嘛，那我們明年再一起來檢驗，好不好？謝謝部長！謝謝召委！"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝委員的支持。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164190","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164190","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db69218d7271aa189541d8817d393176c43b6741136213cfef60385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:12:55 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謝謝趙偉我先請主席長好了請陳署長主席長早委員好主席長我想今年的一到八月收穫員工每人每月的經常性薪資平均數是47709元年增2.98%實際的成長是1.12%對我們乍看之下數據是很漂亮是"},{"start":36.007,"end":55.199,"text":"但是我們再看看中位數只有38217元實際成長只有0.94%換句話說薪資成長的平均數被少數高薪族群所拉高而絕大多數的基層其實沒有感受不到"},{"start":59.401,"end":86.376,"text":"再來我們看貧富的差距113年度家庭收支調查最高20%與最低20%家庭的可支配所得差距高達6.14%昨天我看到主委總署公布受僱員工的薪資統計在通膨趨緩後基本工資調漲下昨天公布的今年1到8月受僱員工的實際薪資呈現"},{"start":89.139,"end":99.773,"text":"連續17個月成長超過通膨所以要請問主席長這是否代表說我們薪資成長超過物價上漲的速度連續打敗通膨"},{"start":102.304,"end":129.232,"text":"目前是这样目前评估是这样子这么乐观但是因为有一些譬如说比较经常性购买的一个食品东西它就是它占的幅度是比较大比较高譬如说食物的部分是占2.64然后肉类占了比较多水果也占了比较多所以这种对于民众来讲影响比较大所以他们就会觉得说没有感受到通膨但是"},{"start":129.992,"end":143.343,"text":"感受到通盤下降但是問題就是說因為譬如說油料 原物料這些在整個國際價格是下降的所以這個部分也真的是影響非常的大是 那個署長我想這個"},{"start":145.465,"end":162.533,"text":"基層的感受就跟妳講的因為民生物資還是在上漲它的漲幅還滿高的所以普遍感覺好像物價沒有跟薪資的差距並沒有有一個非常大的感受"},{"start":163.593,"end":178.503,"text":"所以做這麼樂觀的一個評估我覺得還是要把相關的民生物資的因為它的漲幅那麼高可能是不是要做一個比較真實的一個呈現"},{"start":179.304,"end":196.486,"text":"有 我们相关的民生物资的一个相关的涨幅我们都有公布然后也包括中低收入的高龄的这些的我们都有做一个公布相关的一个那个通膨物价的一个稳定其实主席我想说的就是说"},{"start":196.966,"end":208.03,"text":"因為像你剛才講的那幾種情況之下我們看到今年8月勞工他的平均薪資就1到8月勞工平均薪資是48,098元年增2.92%"},{"start":212.651,"end":232.243,"text":"那加上獎金與加班費等非經常性的薪資後總薪資平均達61646元年增4.38%我一直強調乍看之下很樂觀顯示我們薪資普遍成長但是我們現在看這個經常性的中位數只有38000多塊"},{"start":234.542,"end":257.916,"text":"吉尼係數0.341雙雙叫去年為真所以主委長這是否代表我們大多數的居城的勞工根本或者居城的這些職員根本沒感受到所謂的一個心臟潮普遍沒有感到說我們薪水很高"},{"start":258.871,"end":276.228,"text":"所以這個部分因為中位數是3萬8所以大部分區中集中在3萬8左右那有的高薪的部分譬如說有的是金融業的或者是一些相關資通業的就前面20%的族群它就比較高那這樣整個平均數它整個其實會拉高"},{"start":276.989,"end":301.501,"text":"會拉高但是事實上每一年加薪這都是也事實上也是如此也是連續加薪加了很多年包括基本工資的一個調整都有做一個調整所以整個一個薪資也是都往上漲只是說可能他沒有辦法就是說因為如果是搭退所謂民生物價的一個部分他感受沒有那麼的一個好 沒關係 指揮長我再問你物價的問題"},{"start":302.702,"end":311.084,"text":"根據族裔總署10月8號所公布的數據9月的消費者物價指數CPI年增1.25%比較8月今年8月的1.60%稍微降低也以連續5個月低於2%的通膨的警戒線創下4年半以來的新低"},{"start":326.727,"end":344.225,"text":"但是我們根據經濟日報的報導指出有17項的重要民生物資漲幅高達2.47%創育一年半的新高該您提到的豬肉方面收到近期毛豬供應量的減少漲幅高達8.74%"},{"start":347.669,"end":357.016,"text":"創下超過一年半以來的新高那麼雞蛋也因為替代效果的關係更創近兩年來的最大漲幅還有房租也漲2.14%外食費用也預計上漲超過2%我們電價在10月份預計還要上漲4.3%"},{"start":368.064,"end":383.739,"text":"所以主席長在民生物資持續上漲的狀況下雖然有些物資的價格稍微下滑回穩但是我們長期來看對於今年的CPI影響大概會有什麼樣程度的影響"},{"start":385.376,"end":408.048,"text":"我們其實是它是因為譬如說你剛剛講的水果 蔬菜這些等包括肉類那是因為在造成它豬隻的一個供應減少所以它肉類整個提升豬肉類的部分但是這整個現象大部分都是短暫它很快的就會改善所以外食會的部分除了這個之外因為我們總共有368項的一個調查的一個項目所以就這樣 簡單來說你還是認為說雖然有些這個"},{"start":414.611,"end":439.097,"text":"这都比较短暂时间的有下滑回稳所以你认为整个我们的物价指数就是到今年年底它的整个影响大约会到什么程度还是在维持在百分之二以下吗是我们大概预估今年整个整体的大概是在1.76左右那明年大概是预估在1.64左右明年会更低"},{"start":439.937,"end":449.903,"text":"會更低 是這樣子那有沒有考量這個考量到美國高關稅的因素如果這個談判下來如果不樂觀的話會不會對我們物價的一個上漲會有影響"},{"start":451.725,"end":473.478,"text":"這個部分是影響到的可能是薪資的部分因為為什麼對物價沒有影響對物價比較因為等於說按照道理是比較會有一點點緊縮是這樣子所以是本身來看的話譬如說你如果說關稅談判不樂觀的話我們要面臨高關稅對於我們的物價上漲不會有影響嗎"},{"start":480.415,"end":505.113,"text":"這個部分影響目前還不是很明顯所以你沒有做預估就是說一些的推估就是說停辦人力的減少這個部分所以你對明年會降到1.6%應該講的你很有信心因為我們重點其實現在比較高的是譬如說肉類 蔬菜類 水果這些外食但是明年增進現象會減低那我現在請那個審議長好 謝謝"},{"start":514.14,"end":538.472,"text":"請審計長來 審計長委員好您剛才提到這個AI智慧審計我想請教你審計部今年把打擊詐欺 AI發展還有空屋治理等議題列為專章所以請問打詐這種跨部會的工作審計部是否有發現協調失靈 資源大量重複投入而結果效果不彰有這種現象嗎"},{"start":540.775,"end":544.198,"text":"看起來是我們的審計意見裡面因為目前還沒有沒有看到因為現在的打詐現在越來越嚴重所以多元的方式可能都要試所以豬園的使用當然是看起來每個部會的配置"},{"start":561.834,"end":589.222,"text":"有沒有重複投入資源重複投入是有這種情景但是因為現在詐騙我幫他看他的手法非常多對 現在到8月他們統計出來我們那個詐騙的金額六七百億被害人也越一直升高一直升高 案件也一直大所以這個是一個非常嚴重的事情所以我們政府投入大量的資源去防詐"},{"start":590.441,"end":618.743,"text":"那我們就講說這樣會不會資源重複投入結果效果成效不彰啊這個開始有沒有去提出一個非常這個就是比較能夠資源能夠真正花在這個刀口上然後又可以達到他們一個方向的效果另外我想審計部剛剛一直提到說你在推行AI的審計資料中心還要導入深層AI"},{"start":619.924,"end":636.315,"text":"以本席的立場以我的立場我是支持創新支持更有效率的方式但是我同時也擔憂導入AI工具作為輔助後是否會造成過度依賴演算法就AI的演算法的現象"},{"start":638.496,"end":664.406,"text":"會不會造成那種現象就像我們小時候寫的安全第一所以一定是在像這種AI有道德風險我一定要放在那個工作機構如果說演算法判斷有誤而導致審計結論的謬誤我們審計部有沒有建立一個控管的機制有 我們現在請專家寫者再研究這一個非常謝謝我們有做這方面的研究謝謝"},{"start":666.647,"end":667.568,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1056,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（12時5分）謝謝召委，先請主計長。"],["主席：請陳主計長。"],["林委員思銘：主計長早。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，今年1到8月受僱員工每人每月經常性薪資平均數是4萬7,709元，年增2.98%，實際的成長是1.12%，乍看之下數據很漂亮，但是我們再看看中位數只有3萬8,217元，實際成長只有0.94%。換句話說，薪資成長的平均數被少數高薪族群所拉高，而絕大多數的基層其實感受不到。再來我們看貧富的差距，113年家庭收支調查最高20%與最低20%家庭的可支配所得差距高達6.14倍。昨天我看到主計總處公布受僱員工的薪資統計，在通膨趨緩後，基本工資調漲下，昨天公布的今年1到8月受僱員工的實際薪資呈現連續17個月成長超過通膨，請問主計長，這是否代表我們薪資成長超過物價上漲的速度、連續打敗通膨？有這麼樂觀嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前的評估是這樣。"],["林委員思銘：這麼樂觀喔！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，但是因為有一些比較經常性購買的東西漲的幅度是比較高，例如食物的部分漲2.64%，肉類漲得比較多，水果也漲得比較多，這種對於民眾來講影響比較大，所以他們就會覺得沒有感受到通膨下降，但是問題就是說，像油料、原物料這些在整個國際價格是下降的，這個部分也真的影響非常大。"],["林委員思銘：是，主計長，基層的感受就如同剛剛你講的，因為民生物資還是在上漲，漲幅還滿高的，所以普遍對於物價跟薪資的差距並沒有非常大的感受，我覺得還是要把相關的民生物資，因為它的漲幅那麼高，是不是要做一個比較真實的呈現，我們看起來很樂觀耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：有，民生物資的相關漲幅我們都有公布，也包括中低收入、高齡的，我們都有公布相關的通膨、物價穩定的部分。"],["林委員思銘：剛剛你講的那幾種情況之下，我們看到今年1到8月勞工的平均薪資是4萬8,098元，年增2.92%，加上獎金與加班費等非經常性的薪資後，總薪資平均達6萬1,646元，年增4.38%。我一直強調，乍看之下很樂觀，顯示我們薪資普遍成長，但是我們現在看經常性的中位數只有三萬八千多元，吉尼係數0.341，雙雙較去年微增。主計長，這是否代表我們大多數的基層勞工、基層的職員根本沒感受到所謂的薪漲潮，普遍沒有感受到我們薪水很高。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為中位數是三萬八，所以大部分集中在三萬八左右，有的高薪的部分，例如有的是金融業或相關資通業就比較高……"],["林委員思銘：就前面20%的族群。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這樣整個平均數其實會拉高，但事實上每一年加薪也是如此，也是連續加薪加了很多年，包括基本工資的調整，所以整個薪資也都是往上漲，只是說如果搭配民生物價，他的感受沒有那麼深。"],["林委員思銘：好，沒關係，主計長，我再問你物價的問題。沒根據主計總處10月8日公布的數據，9月的消費者物價指數（CPI）年增1.25%，比今年8月的1.60%稍微降低，也已連續5個月低於2%的通膨警戒線，創下四年半以來的新低，但是我們根據經濟日報的報導，指出有17項重要民生物資漲幅高達2.47%，創逾一年半的新高。剛你提到的豬肉方面受到近期毛豬供應量的減少，漲幅高達8.74%，創下超過一年半以來的新高。雞蛋也因為替代效果的關係，更創近兩年來的最大漲幅，房租漲幅2.14%，外食費用也預計上漲超過2%，電價在10月份預計還要上漲4.3%，所以在民生物資持續上漲的狀況下，雖然有些物資的價格稍微下滑回穩，但是我們長期來看，對於今年的CPI大概會有什麼樣程度的影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：例如你剛剛講的水果、蔬菜等，包括肉類，那是因為災害造成豬隻供應減少，所以豬肉類價格整個提升，但是這些現象大部分都是短暫的，很快就會改善。外食費的部分，除了這個之外，因為我們總共有368項調查項目……"],["林委員思銘：簡單來說，你還是認為有些物資會下滑回穩……"],["陳主計長淑姿：這些都是比較短暫時間的，會下滑回穩。"],["林委員思銘：所以你認為我們整個物價指數到今年年底影響大約會到什麼程度？還是會維持在2%以下嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們預估今年整體大概是1.76%左右，明年預估在1.64%左右。"],["林委員思銘：明年會更低？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，會更低。"],["林委員思銘：有沒有考量到美國高關稅的因素，談判下來如果不樂觀的話，會不會對我們物價上漲有影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個影響到的可能是薪資的部分，因為他停班。"],["林委員思銘：對物價沒有影響？"],["陳主計長淑姿：照道理來說，比較是會有一點點緊縮，本身來看的話？譬如電價調整……"],["林委員思銘：關稅談判不樂觀的話，我們要面臨高關稅，對於我們的物價上漲不會有影響嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分影響目前還不是很明顯……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以你還沒有做預估？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是問題是停班，一些推估就是停班、人力減少這個部分有比較明顯。"],["林委員思銘：所以你對明年會降到1.6%很有信心。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，因為現在比較高的是肉類、蔬菜類、水果、這些外食，但是明年這些現象會減低。"],["林委員思銘：好，主計長，謝謝。我現在請審計長。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：審計長，你剛才提到AI審計，我想要請教你，審計部今年把打擊詐欺、AI發展和空污治理等議題列為專章，請問打詐這種跨部會的工作，審計部是否有發現協調失靈、資源大量重複投入而效果不彰？有這種現象嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：看起來，是我們的審計意見目前還沒有看到這個，因為現在詐騙越來越嚴重，所以多元的方式可能都要試，所以資源的使用看起來每個部會都會配置。"],["林委員思銘：有沒有資源重複投入？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是有這種情形，但是因為現在詐騙……"],["林委員思銘：它的手法非常多。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，到8月他們統計的詐騙金額600、700億元。"],["林委員思銘：被害人也一直升高。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一直升高，案件也一直大，所以這個是一個非常嚴重的事情，我們……"],["林委員思銘：所以政府投入大量的資源去防詐，我們就講這樣會不會資源重複投入，結束成效不彰，審計部有沒有提出一個資源比較能夠真正花在刀口上，然後又可以達到防詐效果的……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們知道，在整合上，我們會注意。"],["林委員思銘：好。另外，審計部剛才一直提到你在推行AI的審計資料中心，導入生成AI，以本席的立場，我是支持創新、支持更有效率的方式，但是我同時也擔憂導入AI工具作為輔助後，是否會造成過度依賴AI演算法的現象？會不會造成這種現象？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為我們告訴我們同仁做任何事就像我們小時候學的安全第一，所以像這種AI有道德風險，我們一定要放在工作底稿。"],["林委員思銘：最後一個問題，如果演算法判斷有誤，而導致審計結論的謬誤，審計部有沒有建立一個控管的機制？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有，我們現在請專家學者在研究這個，非常謝謝，我們有做這方面的研究。"],["林委員思銘：OK，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘召委。","接下來請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在場。","下一位蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在場。","下一位徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在場。","下一位王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},{"id":"164188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6c59c64bb22815ee11d8817d393176c43b6741136213cfef60e4b2c360d55b1ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"12:01:26 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请陈部长请陈部长"},{"start":22.139,"end":35.448,"text":"早上很多委員都有詢問到美國在4月開始對我們推動了對等關稅我們在進行談判中到現在還在談判雖然他已經宣布了對台灣進口的商品繳稅"},{"start":36.269,"end":62.301,"text":"要到關稅要到20%我們還是持續在談我們也希望能夠降低這20%最好也不要疊加但是我們看到農業部特別針對於美國可不可以降低台灣對美國的農產品進口能夠跟美方採取更好的優惠的關稅所以你們主動的也簽署了這個"},{"start":63.081,"end":70.573,"text":"采购的意向书承诺这个四年内你们要超过一百亿美元的采购"},{"start":71.499,"end":93.634,"text":"在这一方面本席相信我们农业部应该不会折损到我们农民的权益但是我们想问一下部长尤其是美国他很多次的点名说我们台湾对美国的农产品设有技术贸易这个壁垒那现在美国又以这个高关税来禁闭我们"},{"start":102.039,"end":128.138,"text":"美國牛肉美國牛肉的部分的話我們已經有進口了但是我們有規範說來季不能超過0.01的ppm在這一方面我們有可能會放寬嗎我第一個跟委員報告我們這一次在美國的採購是例行姓名兩年一次的採購而且是由業者他們統計他們的需求量"},{"start":128.638,"end":145.867,"text":"部長 有沒有承諾四年要超過一百億的美元嘛對 但是那有好 那本席問的問題就請教他不是政府出資是業者 我知道是商人是業者沒有錯 這個是自己業者而且是國內需求的 但是 部長你身為農業部的部長我現在問的問題就是要你把關"},{"start":147.148,"end":162.535,"text":"而且很重要的是這些採購不涉及後續的食品的檢疫檢驗的條件都沒有去談這些事情直接回答我美國牛肉來季的標準0.01ppm會放寬嗎這個不是農業部的權責這是衛務部的權責"},{"start":165.436,"end":185.331,"text":"我只能說我們在採購的部分採購的部分沒有完全沒有去處理沒有說去交換任何的事情部長你也要把關注好不好因為它未來進口的可能就是這些頭骨跟骨髓內臟這些部位這都是我們不希望的"},{"start":186.388,"end":206.337,"text":"不希望進口的所以這部分我們要注意好不好我們在採購的時候都是根據現行的法規去處理的沒有去處理說要採購的人以後要去處理這個我知道都是現行法規部長我一直強調你是農業部的部長我知道把關這個來季的問題也是衛福部要把關這關稅是否能夠降也是我們政府"},{"start":206.957,"end":216.322,"text":"所以我要你把關的是要保障農民的權益而且不應該讓我們農民的權益受損在我們農業產業能夠承擔的經濟風險下你要為農民來發聲一定的 我們一定是為農民你會為農民發聲好 那我現在就請教因為我們台灣的雞肉是有自給率是將近達到八成沒有"},{"start":233.53,"end":252.272,"text":"打幾成現在美國進來的大概36我說台灣的肌肉36 64好就是65%啦但是我們這是我們這十幾幾十年來的一個成果那我們現在看到就是最近我們有一個展覽"},{"start":254.194,"end":272.247,"text":"美國的農業部海外事務次長這個陸克特別有點名到能夠希望我們進美國雞肉那這個美國雞肉如果要進口的話我想請問部長那你的規劃擴大美國的採購會不會雞肉也會有接受採購"},{"start":274.477,"end":296.569,"text":"我只能這樣說因為現在跟台美的關稅談判還在進行中而且很多的品項各別的品項都有它的不確定性所以現在我沒辦法做任何的說明我們都知道部長不要再提醒我還在繼續談判可是20%已經開始在做了當然我們繼續談判就希望能夠降低不要20%現在本席請教你的"},{"start":297.009,"end":324.436,"text":"就是雞肉因為雞肉美國進口進來台灣的關稅是20%那你在擴大採購的時候你會不會把美國進口的雞肉連關稅進口台灣我們針對雞肉沒有在我們所謂的擴大對媒採購而且我剛才說的這不是擴大對媒採購這是例行的採購黃豆玉米小麥跟牛肉這次的這些只針對這四個品項沒有談其他的品項"},{"start":325.865,"end":354.512,"text":"好 那就是說這個美國進口的這個雞肉不會降低這個20%的關稅 對不對不會零關稅我沒有這樣講 我只是說我們的採購好 那請你強調跟我們政府去談判的人講不能降低因為我剛剛特別開帳明就告訴你了我們的進口我們自己的雞肉自給率是非常足夠的非常足夠的你不要放在擴大採購跟降低關稅來傷害我們的雞農好不好"},{"start":355.297,"end":380.14,"text":"我想我們國內的雞肉是一個受到我們民眾支持的這些產品所以要保障啊所以我們也一定會去努力的去爭取就請部長一定要發聲好不好跟我們談判辦公室來說明這件事情那接下來本席想請教就是我們豬肉的部分豬肉我們在1997年的時候爆發口蹄疫後來"},{"start":382.161,"end":406.068,"text":"這經過了23年之後在2020年的時候我們就已經有除名了不再是口蹄疫但是在2024年到2025年世界動物衛生組織也讓我們的台灣的這個豬肉非洲豬瘟跟這個傳統豬瘟我們也在疫區裡面除名所以我們都有進口在國外的豬肉尤其是在2023年我們出口到"},{"start":406.949,"end":421.711,"text":"這個菲律賓的豬肉今年又特別又進口到出口到這個新加坡所以我們看到我們農業部是有在努力的那努力的話我希望能夠更穩定保障我們的雞肉的出口"},{"start":422.071,"end":449.213,"text":"但是我們看到2023年的時候我們出口到菲律賓是23.3公噸2024年出口到菲律賓是429.5公噸但是2025年的今年到這9月份只有出口過去513公斤請問農業部你們要如何去協助穩固外銷的機會我跟委員報告就是一個產品在跟"},{"start":450.257,"end":475.695,"text":"跟不同的国家在开始输入的时候触及会有一些不稳定性最重要就是那个通路跟它的商业的节点要建立那这样的话才能够有一个稳定的生产我们会来努力尤其是我们之前都有出口到日本现在日本进口的这个猪肉的话都以美国加拿大跟西班牙为主我们是不是努力协助我们的猪肉出口到日本"},{"start":476.226,"end":497.547,"text":"我想我們會來協助把我們這些優質的這些豬肉能夠繼續在我希望看到成效不是口頭在說而已我們一直在努力做這個國產品行銷主席我再給我30秒的時間最重要就是本市長請教一下在2022年的時候陳吉仲"},{"start":498.615,"end":523.733,"text":"那時候我們還沒升格的主委嘛那時候是農委會主委那時候我特別提到說我們在防範我們的風災很多的農產品受損我們有現金及時的補助還有那個地利的貸款但是我們要保障他們那個穩定所以我們有農業保險在農業保險裡面我們總共有28個項目裡面都很多28個項目但是我們有44"},{"start":525.594,"end":549.867,"text":"這種的保單有一項完全沒有就是茶葉你們說要研議研議了這幾年 茶葉還沒有還沒有列入到農業保險裡面去茶葉在我們台灣的產值裡面一年的產值是300億本溪的龍潭地區他們的茶葉茶農都說什麼時候要列入農保"},{"start":552.022,"end":577.87,"text":"中委員報告 一個農業保險能夠開辦就是要掌握相關的背景的這些產值的資訊還有氣象對它影響的資訊我知道 你們研議了好幾年了這些都有掌握嗎什麼氣象天候產品都有掌握嗎它的產值都有掌握嗎現在跟低溫跟寒害的部分它的影響的溫度跟程度你告訴我你有研議茶葉要不要列入農保嗎不要講這麼多這些你們早就要做準備的"},{"start":578.59,"end":604.621,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 一個農保齁 你要開放你一定要非常充足的這些資訊才能要保險 他不是走行政程序低溫 什麼樣的問題作為影響部長 三年的時間你這些研議 準備 考量 評估 都出來了嗎還沒有我只問你 他現在有什麼問題不能列入農保 卡在哪裡 卡在哪裡低溫跟寒害本身的影響程度還沒辦法確認"},{"start":606.192,"end":629.665,"text":"三年的時間春夏秋冬都過了 你還做不出來做這個東西沒有那麼單純三年的時間還不夠你需要多久時間 你的期程在哪裡需要再一年的時間前面過了三年 現在還要一年一年時間你要做什麼一年時間你要做什麼評估我跟委員報告"},{"start":631.567,"end":651.639,"text":"天氣本身低溫對茶葉的影響溫度到幾度的時候會有影響所以我要說三年的時間春夏秋冬的溫度你們都評估過了還不夠還要一年那一年你要做什麼嘛我們很多事情經過了以後還要做確認因為這樣的話保險以後才不會有爭議"},{"start":653.533,"end":675.312,"text":"所以我們一定要再三的確認這些天氣的影響是被確認的部長 是不是把這些比較詳細的跟余玲文報告好 我們再跟委員做報告請部長具體的在你這一年要做什麼評估實質的對我們農民保障的評估的規劃會給我本席報告好不好我想我們再給您"},{"start":676.905,"end":682.039,"text":"謝謝一定要出來一年後就要出來了好不好好非常關心我們一定會努力的好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":974,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（12時1分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，早上很多委員也都有詢問到，就是美國在4月開始對我們推動了對等關稅，我們在進行談判中，到現在還在談判。雖然他已經宣布了對臺灣進口的商品關稅要到20%，我們還是持續在談。我們也希望能夠降低這20%，最好也不要疊加。但是我們看到農業部特別針對美國可不可以降低臺灣對美國的農產品進口，能夠跟美方採取更好、優惠的關稅，所以你們主動地也簽署了採購意向書，承諾4年內你們要超過100億美元的採購。","在這方面，本席相信農業部應該不會折損到我們農民的權益。但是我們想問一下部長，尤其是美國很多次地點名臺灣對美國的農產品設有技術性貿易壁壘，現在美國又以高關稅來進逼我們，要求臺灣能夠全面地開放農業的市場。我舉例好了，美國牛肉的部分我們已經有進口了，但是我們規範萊劑不能超過0.01ppm，在這方面我們有可能放寬嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個跟委員報告，我們這次在美國的採購是例行性每兩年一次的採購，而且是由業者統計他們的需求量……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，有沒有承諾4年要超過100億的美元嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是……"],["呂委員玉玲：有？好！那本席問的問題就請教……"],["陳部長駿季：我要強調，它不是政府出資，是業者自己，而且是國內需求的。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道是商人、是業者，沒有錯！但是你身為農業部的部長，我現在問的問題就是要你把關！"],["陳部長駿季：而且很重要的是，這些採購不涉及後續食品檢疫、檢驗的條件，都沒有去談這件事情，沒有去談這個。"],["呂委員玉玲：你直接回答我，美國牛肉萊劑的標準0.01ppm會放寬嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個不是農業部的權責，這是衛福部的權責……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道是衛福部的權責……"],["陳部長駿季：我只能說，我們在採購的部分完全沒有去處理，沒有去交換任何的事情。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，所以我也希望部長你也要把關住，好不好？因為它未來進口的可能就是頭骨跟骨髓、內臟這些部位，這都是我們不希望進口的，所以這部分我們要注意。"],["陳部長駿季：我們在採購的時候，都是根據現行的法規去處理的，沒有去處理……要採購了以後才去處理這個。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道都是現行法規。部長，我一直強調你是農業部的部長，我知道把關萊劑的問題也是衛福部，要把關關稅是否能夠降也是我們政府，所以我要你把關的是要保障農民的權益……"],["陳部長駿季：對，很重要！我們對國內的農民一定是我們的責任。"],["呂委員玉玲：而且不應該讓我們農民的權益受損。在我們農業產業能夠承擔的經濟風險下，你要為農民來發聲。"],["陳部長駿季：一定的！我們一定是為農民。"],["呂委員玉玲：你會為農民發聲。好，那我現在就請教，因為我們臺灣雞肉的自給率是將近達到八成……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！"],["呂委員玉玲：達幾成？"],["陳部長駿季：現在美國進來的大概36%。"],["呂委員玉玲：我是說臺灣的雞肉？"],["陳部長駿季：64%。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，就是65%。這是我們這幾十年來的成果。我們現在看到，就是最近我們有一個展覽，美國農業部海外事務次長盧克特別有點名到，希望我們進美國雞肉。如果要進口美國雞肉的話，我想請問部長，按照你的規劃，擴大美國的採購部分，會不會雞肉也會接受採購？"],["陳部長駿季：我只能這樣說，因為現在臺美的關稅談判還在進行中，而且很多個別的品項都有它的不確定性，所以現在我沒辦法做任何的說明。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們都知道，部長不要再提醒我還在繼續談判，可是20%已經開始在做了。當然我們繼續談判就是希望能夠降低，不要20%。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：現在本席請教你的就是雞肉，因為美國進來臺灣的關稅是20%，你在擴大採購的時候，會不會把美國進口的雞肉為零關稅進口臺灣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們針對雞肉沒有在我們所謂的擴大對美採購，而且像我剛才說的，這不是擴大對美採購，這是例行的採購……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們有進口美國雞肉吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是黃豆、玉米、小麥跟牛肉，這次只針對這4個品項，沒有談其他的品項。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那就是說美國進口的雞肉不會降低這20%的關稅，對不對？不會零關稅？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有這樣講，我只是說我們的採購……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那請你強調跟我們政府去談判的人講不能降低，因為我剛剛特別開宗明義就告訴你了，我們自己的雞肉自給率是非常足夠的，你不要放在擴大採購跟降低關稅來傷害我們的雞農，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們國內的雞肉是一個受到我們民眾支持的產品……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以要保障啊！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們也一定會努力地去爭取相關的這些作為。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，就請部長一定要發聲，好不好？跟我們談判辦公室來說明這件事情。","接下來，本席想請教有關豬肉的部分。我們在1997年的時候爆發口蹄疫，後來經過了23年，在2020年的時候我們就已經除名了，不再是口蹄疫區。但是在2024年到2025年，世界動物衛生組織也讓我們臺灣的豬肉從非洲豬瘟跟傳統豬瘟的疫區裡面除名，所以我們都有出口到國外的豬肉，尤其是在2023年我們出口到菲律賓，今年又特別出口到新加坡，所以我們看到我們農業部是有在努力的。但是除了努力，我希望能夠更穩定保障我們雞肉的出口……"],["陳部長駿季：豬肉。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是我們看到2023年的時候，我們出口到菲律賓是23.3公噸，2024年出口到菲律賓是429.5公噸，但是今年2025年到9月份只有出口513公斤。請問農業部你們要如何去協助、穩固外銷的機會？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，一個產品跟不同的國家在開始輸入的時候，初期會有一些不穩定性，最重要就是那個通路跟它的商業節點要建立，這樣的話才能夠有一個穩定的生產……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以要去努力，這個節點要你們去突破。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來努力突破。"],["呂委員玉玲：尤其是我們之前都有出口到日本，現在日本進口的豬肉都以美國、加拿大跟西班牙為主。我們是不是要努力協助我們的豬農出口到日本？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會來協助，把我們這些優質的豬肉繼續在特定的市場能夠穩定。"],["呂委員玉玲：我希望看到成效，不是口頭在說而已。"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。我們一直在努力做這個國產品行銷。"],["呂委員玉玲：主席，再給我30秒的時間。"],["主席：OK。"],["呂委員玉玲：最重要就是，本席想請教一下，在2022年的時候，那時候農業部還沒有升格，陳吉仲是農委會主委，當時有特別提到，我們在防範風災，很多的農產品受損，我們有現金及時的補助，還有低利的貸款。但是我們要保障他們能夠穩定，所以我們有農業保險。","在農業保險裡面，我們總共有28個項目，裡面都很多。28個項目，但是我們有44種保單，有一項完全沒有，就是茶葉。你們說要研議，研議了這幾年，茶葉還沒有列入到農業保險裡面。茶葉在我們臺灣一年的產值是300億元，本席龍潭地區的茶農都在問什麼時候要列入農保？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，一個農業保險能夠開辦，就是要掌握相關背景等產值的資訊，還有氣象對它影響的資訊……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，你們研議了好幾年了，這些都有掌握嗎？氣象、天候、產品都有掌握嗎？它的產值都有掌握嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在就是低溫和寒害的部分，它影響的溫度跟程度……"],["呂委員玉玲：你告訴我有研議，茶葉要不要列入農保嘛！不要講這麼多！這些你們早就要做準備的！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，一個農保要開辦，一定要有非常充足的這些資訊才能……要保險，它不是走行政程序。低溫，什麼樣的溫度會影響……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，3年的時間，你這些研議、準備、考量、評估都出來了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：還沒有。"],["呂委員玉玲：我只問你，它現在有什麼問題不能列入農保？卡在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：現在就是低溫跟寒害的部分還沒辦法確認。低溫跟寒害本身的影響程度還沒辦法確認。"],["呂委員玉玲：3年的時間，春夏秋冬都過了，你還做不出來？"],["陳部長駿季：做這個東西沒有那麼單純，因為牽涉到保險的部分……"],["呂委員玉玲：3年的時間還不夠？你需要多久時間？你的期程在哪裡？"],["陳部長駿季：需要再一年的時間。"],["呂委員玉玲：前面過了3年，現在還要一年？一年時間你要做什麼？一年時間你要做什麼評估？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，對於天氣本身，低溫對茶葉的影響，溫度到幾度的時候會有影響，這個要重複去測試。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道！所以我要說嘛！3年的時間，春夏秋冬的溫度你們都評估過了，還不夠，還要一年。一年你要做什麼嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們很多事情經過了以後，還要做確認，因為這樣的話，保險以後才不會有爭議，所以我們一定要再三地確認這些天氣的影響是被確認的。"],["主席：部長，是不是把這些比較詳細地跟呂玉玲委員報告？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們再跟委員做報告。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，請部長具體地在你這一年要做什麼評估，實質地對我們農民保障的所有評估的規劃，給本席報告好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我想我們再給您……"],["主席：謝謝。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要出來哦！一年後就要出來了，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：委員非常關心，我們一定會努力啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員的質詢。","我們現在請林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","我們現在請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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art":132.735,"end":158.038,"text":"兒少的身心發展這些我們事實上在這個他那裡都已經把它排除掉不是啊您這邊的說法我認可就是我們自己本身從自己做起的以公務員的部分以教師的部分我們自己先禁止使用那針對禁止青少年使用的這個部分我們教育部會不會召集教師家長及學生團體共同來研議相關的規範"},{"start":159.179,"end":182.072,"text":"事實上跟我們報告也感謝我們關係我們對這個網路上的一些使用我們本來就有跟教師團體跟家長團體還有校長團體甚至三大的國內的通信業者我們都有座談也希望怎麼去透過源頭的一些協助來協助家長能夠讓青少年減少去接觸到"},{"start":183.092,"end":203.575,"text":"所以我們有跟相關的團體來座談收集這些聲音這些意見我想請教部長針對有學生團體他們表示說禁止抖音不如教導如何正確試讀那教育部這邊你們立場跟配套是什麼我想我們是這是雙款旗下的"},{"start":204.756,"end":231.334,"text":"就是說我們怎麼樣讓這個青少年能夠透過這個試讀辨別裡邊許多的網路它的一個西甲進行或者一些影響不當的一些信息我想這當然教育部這個應該要教我們在這個資訊教育這個部分我們當然也都會有納入的所以教育部這邊會不會持續的來收集包含學生團體的聲音"},{"start":233.695,"end":247.302,"text":"我想當然學生的幾多不同教育階段學生的一些聲音我們當然一直就教育部的立場來講這個是台灣未來的所有的希望我們當然會也收集學生的一些聲音"},{"start":249.4,"end":264.102,"text":"我們希望來管制跟禁止抖音這是分成兩個部分來談第一個部分本期之前也非常關心關於短影音的部分我們是憂心短影音會讓孩子越來越沒有耐心進而影響孩子相關的發展及學習"},{"start":265.003,"end":286.211,"text":"那在這個部分呢本席之前有在總質詢的時候提出當時的教育部長潘部長有承諾說會做教師增能來協助教學現場的教師呢來應付這樣的狀況那本席希望說目前教育部你們應該還是持續有在進行相關增能的工作嘛也會有繼續收集教學現場的狀況希望說我們能夠適度的來調整繼續的來持續這樣子相關增能的內容"},{"start":292.994,"end":310.859,"text":"讓教學現場的老師可以有更多的後盾我們希望這個一定要繼續保持我們不僅是在老師稱我們有發展這個有許多優秀的老師發展這個相關專業的這些教學網路這個網路教學的許多的一個材料提供我們老師上來參考"},{"start":312.139,"end":325.533,"text":"那第二個部分呢就我們為什麼希望禁止抖音是因為抖音呢有一個非常不一樣的現象跟其他中國音樂軟體沒有的就是它常常會出現一種不合理性的行為就是所謂的抖音挑戰這個部長您知道嗎"},{"start":327.455,"end":343.107,"text":"所謂的抖音挑戰就是要青少年做出指定的行為再來標註這個標籤那這個在國外的青少年間可以說是蔚為風潮但是這都是非常危險的例如像昏迷挑戰就是要求加入直播者用神狀物品等"},{"start":343.487,"end":362.757,"text":"立住自己長時間憋住呼吸直到昏迷來體驗冰死的感受或者是造成多起少年意外死亡的這個地鐵衝浪就是故意在行進中的地鐵的車廂車頂車門外車廂邊緣站立攀爬或是跳躍用這樣危險的動作來勃起他們的關注"},{"start":363.217,"end":378.763,"text":"另外還有所謂的吞藥挑戰跳水挑戰等等甚至在巴西有一個8歲的女童她模仿這個止汗劑挑戰她對自己身體狂奔止汗劑之後呢造成死亡所以她的父親他就覺得非常的質疑喔說"},{"start":379.563,"end":393.319,"text":"這些平台充斥著兒童觀眾但他們證實生命的起點在這個平台上卻沒有任何過濾的措施為什麼兒童觀看的影片沒有任何保護的機制這是女童她家長的質疑"},{"start":394.38,"end":419.42,"text":"抖音的这些种种的危险挑战在国外造成很多青少年失去生命当然这个也还有中国他在后台收集使用者资料的这样的问题所以这已经是不单单是所谓什么文化玻璃心本席认为说为了流量而去做这些毫无意义的挑战青少年如何可以做到克制或是识别到怎样的程度这是我们应该要考量的"},{"start":419.62,"end":448.841,"text":"我想像这些所谓的昏迷的挑战这些等等的这些本来就是不足取它绝对是违反社会的一个乱言之一那我想这为什么我们看到这个美国川普总统在前一阵子他透过这个贸易的一个他希望把抖音整个能够把由美国把它买下来让它回忆到一个比较正常的一个商业的一个经营的一个模式我想"},{"start":449.481,"end":478.661,"text":"這都也可以看出網路影響群體我們也要用群體的力量來影響網路回到正軌那禁止抖音或是管制抖音的近期也是都是各國討論的重點那其他國家大部分就是因為國安的問題會禁止公務人員公務機關來下載這些中國的軟體像阿爾巴尼亞它就是因為抖音引起青少年的暴力事件它禁抖音一年所以抖音的危害真的不只是短影音文化思想的灌輸"},{"start":479.221,"end":501.839,"text":"其實真的我要再次強調這個不只是文化玻璃性的問題這裡面還包含就是我們台灣青少年的人身安全心理健康所以我會一直強調每次有機會跟部長討論的時候我都會提到說我們應該要跟教師團體家長團體學生團體進行溝通研究然後要也很謹慎的做相關的配套的做法"},{"start":502.239,"end":530.279,"text":"那在这一点呢教育部你们现在目前你们对自己现在做的有什么觉得还要再补足的我想也感谢委员的关心因为确实我们也跟三大的电信业者从开学或者学校的许多的进展我们都有专人包含我们知科师全国有几十个据点都能够提供这一个家长的一些在这方面的一些协助只要家长愿意"},{"start":530.959,"end":560.242,"text":"我们除了宣传以外也实际在技术上协助家长来做许多的这些手机上的一些等于说一些把它做一些隔离让青少年能够有一个更好的一个使用手机能够有助于他学习但是不妨碍他的生意不能影响到他的一个发展不管是身体上或是心理上那这个部分也请教育部这边要持续的来收集相关的声音持续的来检讨"},{"start":560.982,"end":590.191,"text":"然后能够做更周全的相关的配套好那接下来本席要请教在上周的财政联席的时候本席有询问过部长关于财劃法的影响在教育经费分配的问题那当时本席希望教育部能够尽速跟各地方政府协调经费如何分配也有提醒教育部应该跟民众说明分配的结果那部长这边您也做到了在周末的时候就迅速的公布明年将有地方政府来负担的相关的经费的项目"},{"start":590.851,"end":606.877,"text":"但是在教育部說明經費分配比例之後許多地方政府的教育單位又跳腳說中央未來不補助教育經費地方政府需要自籌財源可能會排擠到其他教育的經費但其實就像本席之前一直提醒到部長這邊的"},{"start":608.477,"end":638.057,"text":"有給地方的教育的經費其實就包含在中央統籌分配給縣市政府的款項裡面已經就已經包含在裡面教育部所做的補助早就已經包含在統籌分配給縣市政府的款項了所以教育部這邊你們還是要嚴正的澄清中央補助地方經費減少是因為才化法已經把資源分配個地方而不是減少補助"},{"start":638.777,"end":653.864,"text":"那麼應該由地方自治所做的教育的事項不應該再由地方政府這邊來補助應該回給地方政府由地方政府來負擔所以部長您這邊應該如果有面對這樣的質疑你必須做更清楚的說明"},{"start":654.444,"end":674.078,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為確實以前是要等於說用計劃型或者一些申請然後中央等於教育部才把經費撥到地方那現在就直接因為財務法就直接把它包含就許多我們原來政策在做的一個事情就直接下放到地方譬如說這個2到6歲我們原來編688億那現在就直接"},{"start":679.461,"end":699.652,"text":"這一個88億已經直接到地方裡面另外我們600億還是中央就直接撥到按這一個實際的人這個學生人數跟老師的一些營運的經費也是直接撥到地方就是說我們在這個部分我想未來我們會把它講清楚陳儒部長您剛剛所回答的這些經費直接給了已經給了"},{"start":701.693,"end":721.745,"text":"那麼地方的教育單位他們知不知道錢哪了就是要該做這些權責的區分喔這個部分也希望說你們要跟地方政府再溝通好而且我希望說我們教育部是有一個監督的機制因為這些款項給了之後有沒有被挪用是不是確實的用到教育上這一點其實家長也很關心"},{"start":722.345,"end":741.367,"text":"也跟我們報告確實我們因應財化法當時也跟22個縣市的教育局處所長我們也擔心說因為本來明顯是縣市首長他當然有一定的城市發展的一些重點跟理念的一個在經會上的一些編列那我們也希望說既有的"},{"start":741.727,"end":759.137,"text":"教育部的政策這些經費下放到地方的時候也一定要讓這個縣市首長能夠知道把這個經費能夠何時的用來推動這個地方的一個教育本席就是希望說這些教育經費竟然已經給了地方政府"},{"start":759.417,"end":780.928,"text":"它是可以被落實的被使用在教育項目而不是被地方政府挪用之後又來跟中央又來跟教育部說它沒有經費所以這個部分也希望教育部要留意地方政府是不是有確實的執行所以我說需要一個監督的機制這個部分也請教育部你們再研議然後有相關的方式呢你再跟我辦公室這邊給我一份資料謝謝委員提醒謝謝委員指導好 謝謝陳舊寶委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時54分）謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長好。針對您在10月7日的院會回答王義川委員質詢的時候，認同應該禁止使用抖音，本席在這邊想要再進一步請教，部長還有我們教育部未來會禁止的部分，除了抖音外，其他相關的中國應用程式都會禁止，包含最近很夯的小紅書嗎？因為除了我們教育界對此非常的關心，家長也非常的關心，還有像人本教育基金會甚至倡議，為了面對小紅書及抖音的無孔不入，為了避免孩子成為AI的工具，應該要倡議「抗網保孩」。基金會的執行長表示，我們不能期待抖音或小紅書自己改變，所以抗網保孩是公衛的議題，需要全社會共同參與，需要全民的投入。請教部長，我們教育部會有什麼具體的作法？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員關心我們青少年有一個更好的發展環境，確實，我們行政院本來就有公布「各機關對危害國家資通安全產品限制使用原則」，在公務設備，不僅是大專校院，公立中小學的公務設備也都不能使用大陸的廠牌跟軟硬體跟服務。我們臺灣的學術網路TANet基本上就是在支持師生教學跟學習，所以有關抖音跟小紅書這些內容跟學習相關性比較低的，也會影響到兒少的身心發展，這些事實上TANet在112年都已經把它排除掉了。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長的說法我認可，就是我們從自己本身做起，於公務員的部分、於教師的部分，我們自己先禁止使用。那針對禁止青少年使用這個部分，我們教育部會不會召集教師、家長、學生團體，共同研議相關的規範？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告也感謝委員關心，事實上對網路上的一些使用，我們本來就跟教師團體、家長團體還有校長團體甚至三大國內通信業者都有座談，也希望設法透過源頭的一些協助，協助家長能夠讓青少年減少接觸到許多不當或者不利的網路內容。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以我們有跟相關團體座談，蒐集這些聲音和意見。那我想請教部長，針對有學生團體表示禁止抖音不如教導如何正確識讀，教育部這邊的立場跟配套是什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們是雙管齊下的，就是我們怎麼樣讓青少年能夠透過這個識讀，辨別網路裡邊許多的虛假信息或是影響不當的一些訊息，我想這些教育部當然應該要教，在資訊教育這個部分當然也都會納入。"],["陳委員秀寳：教育部會不會持續蒐集包含學生團體的聲音？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想就教育部的立場來講，這個是臺灣未來所有的希望，對許多不同教育階段學生的一些聲音，我們當然會蒐集。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，我們希望管制跟禁止抖音，這要分成兩個部分來談，第一個、本席之前也非常關心短影音的部分，我們是憂心短影音會讓孩子愈來愈沒有耐心，進而影響孩子相關的發展及學習。在這個部分，本席之前有在總質詢的時候提出，當時的教育部潘部長有承諾會做教師增能，協助教學現場的教師應付這樣的狀況。本席希望教育部目前還是持續進行相關增能的工作，也繼續蒐集教學現場的狀況。希望我們能夠適度的調整，持續這樣子相關增能的內容，讓教學現場的老師可以有更多的後盾，我們希望這個一定要繼續保持，繼續做。"],["鄭部長英耀：不僅是老師這邊，我們還有許多優秀的老師發展相關專業網路教學的許多材料，提供我們老師參考。"],["陳委員秀寳：第二個、我們為什麼希望禁止抖音？是因為抖音有一個非常不一樣的、其他中國應用軟體沒有的現象，就是它常常會出現一種不合理性的行為，亦即所謂的「抖音挑戰」。這個部長知道嗎？所謂的「抖音挑戰」就是要青少年做出指定的行為再來標註標籤，這個在國外的青少年間可以說是蔚為風潮，但是那些都是非常危險的行為，例如像「昏迷挑戰」，就是要求加入直播者用繩狀物品勒住自己，長時間憋住呼吸直到昏迷，以體驗瀕死的感受；或者是造成多起少年意外死亡的「地鐵衝浪」，就是故意在行進中的地鐵車廂的車頂、車門外、車廂邊緣站立、攀爬或是跳躍，用這樣危險的動作來博取他人的關注；又如「吞藥挑戰」、「跳水挑戰」等等，甚至在巴西有一個8歲的女童，她模仿「止汗劑挑戰」，對自己的身體狂噴止汗劑之後導致死亡，所以她的父親就覺得非常的質疑，說這些平台充斥著兒童觀眾，他們正值生命的起點，這個平台上卻沒有任何過濾的措施，為什麼兒童觀看的影片沒有任何保護的機制？這是這個女童家長的質疑。抖音這些種種的危險挑戰，在國外造成很多青少年失去生命。當然這個還有中國在後台蒐集使用者資料這樣的問題，所以這已經不單單是所謂文化玻璃心。本席認為對於這種為了流量而去做這些毫無意義的挑戰，青少年如何可以做到克制或是識別到怎樣的程度，這是我們應該要考量的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我想所謂「昏迷挑戰」等等，這些本來就是不足取的，絕對是違反社會的亂源之一，我想這也是為什麼我們看到美國川普總統在前一陣子透過貿易行為，希望能把抖音整個由美國買下來，讓它回復到一個比較正常的商業經營模式。我想這也都可以……"],["陳委員秀寳：網路影響群體，我們也要用群體的力量來影響網路回到正軌。禁止抖音或是管制抖音近期也是各國討論的重點，其他國家大部分是因為國安的問題，會禁止公務人員、公務機關下載這些中國的軟體。像阿爾巴尼亞就是因為抖音引起青少年的暴力事件，因此禁抖音一年。所以抖音的危害真的不止是短影音文化思想的灌輸，我要再次強調，這個不止是文化玻璃心的問題喔！裡面還包含我們臺灣青少年的人身安全、心理健康，所以我會一直強調，每次有機會跟部長討論的時候，我都會提到我們應該要跟教師團體、家長團體、學生團體進行溝通研究，然後要很謹慎的做出相關的配套作法。在這一點上，教育部對你們自己現在做的覺得有什麼還要再補足的？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員的關心，確實我們也跟三大電信業者，從開學或者學校的許多進程，我們都有專人包含我們資科司，全國有幾十個據點都能夠提供家長這方面的一些協助，只要家長願意，我們除了宣傳外，也實際在技術上協助家長，比如在手機上做一些隔離，讓青少年使用手機能夠有一個更好的、有助於他學習但是不妨礙他身心上的發展。"],["陳委員秀寳：不管是身體上或是心理上，這個部分也請教育部持續蒐集相關的聲音，持續檢討，然後能夠做更周全的相關配套。","接下來本席要請教的是在上週與財政聯席會議中，本席有請問過部長關於財劃法在教育經費分配問題上的影響，當時本席希望教育部能夠儘速跟各地方政府協調經費如何分配，也有提醒教育部應該跟民眾說明分配的結果。部長也做到了，在週末的時候就迅速公布明年將由地方政府負擔的相關經費項目。但是在教育部說明經費分配比例之後，許多地方政府的教育單位又跳腳，說中央未來不補助教育經費，地方政府需要自籌財源，可能會排擠到其他教育的經費。就像本席之前一直提醒部長的，給地方的教育經費其實就包含在中央統籌分配給縣市政府的款項裡面，就已經包含在裡面了，教育部所做的補助早就已經包含在統籌分配給縣市政府的款項裡了，所以教育部還是要嚴正的澄清，中央補助地方經費減少是因為財劃法已經把資源分配給地方，而不是減少補助，應該由地方自治所做的教育事項不應該再由中央政府補助，應該回歸給地方政府，由地方政府負擔，所以部長如果有面對這樣的質疑，你必須做更清楚的說明。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，確實以前是要用計畫型或者一些申請，然後中央、教育部才會把經費撥到地方，現在因為財劃法，許多我們原來在做的事情就直接下放到地方，譬如說2到6歲的部分，我們原來編了688億元，現在則是88億元已經直接給到地方裡面，另外的600億元，中央就按實際的學生跟老師人數及一些營運的經費，也直接撥到地方，在這個部分，我想未來我們會把它講清楚。"],["陳委員秀寳：誠如部長剛剛所回答的，這些經費已經直接給了，那麼地方的教育單位知不知道錢拿了就該做這些？這是權責的區分，這個部分希望你們要跟地方政府再溝通好，而且我希望我們教育部有一個監督的機制，因為這些款項給了之後有沒有被挪用、是不是確實用到教育上，這一點其實家長也很關心。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，為了因應財劃法，我們當時也跟22個縣市的教育局處所長座談，因為我們也擔心民選的縣市首長會基於他對城市發展的重點跟理念而在經費上有一些編列，我們也希望教育部既有的政策，這些經費下放到地方的時候，一定要讓縣市首長知道，能把這些經費覈實的用來推動地方的教育。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席希望的就是這些教育經費既然已經給了地方政府，它就可以被落實的使用在教育項目，而不是被地方政府挪用之後，又來跟中央、又來跟教育部說沒有經費。希望教育部要留意地方政府是不是有確實的執行，所以我說需要有一個監督的機制，這部分也請教育部再研議，有相關的方式後再給我辦公室一份資料。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢，謝謝部長，請回座。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：接下來請劉書彬召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}},{"id":"164186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164186","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db66f614ca2de53a464bc2e7a8918bc9e77b6741136213cfef65bdf3d81c64cf4bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:46:49 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過度放電或者是外部損傷以及電解液儲存不當那鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險的而且是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險"},{"start":424.824,"end":439.291,"text":"你們治安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我們辦公室那跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的在這種狀況裡面我們看到他們公司自主的這個報告"},{"start":440.672,"end":456.417,"text":"起火云就写到人为操作或机械异常导致瑕疵半成品进入化成半成品常温静置区酿灾所以他们认为可能火灾就是生产流程中自动外观检查制成"},{"start":457.097,"end":479.849,"text":"因故轉成人工目視本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視那因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出第二個於自動化流程機械設備因故發生異常造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出"},{"start":480.709,"end":496.048,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面請問部長你們公文回覆林淑芬辦公室的都在講製程的風險太低了然後呢都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險才是爆炸的高風險使用過程"},{"start":496.949,"end":512.527,"text":"那剛剛講三元三元你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看他們自己的報告這個是使用階段還是製造製成的階段"},{"start":514.249,"end":528.757,"text":"就工廠來說當然是製程的階段那你們說低風險不納管跟委員報告其實我們本來就有其實這幾個月我們一直在跟治安署在檢討我們過去高風險物質的納管的範圍太小了你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室你們沒有要納管"},{"start":534.4,"end":560.421,"text":"剛剛才回覆白紙寫黑字我們來把這些相關的案例現在立委沒有質詢的話沒有這個案子的話我想你們還是不會納官而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的理工池電廠都要比照緊急應變措施這個技術指引規定還要不是只有申報五年報一次的製程評估報告還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練"},{"start":563.462,"end":581.249,"text":"針對現場作業的人員的應變能力安全訓練也要建立在定期的演練的制度特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的場區更應該要落實人員訓練和演練的這個訓練確保在事故發生的時候能夠及時應變為什麼我們這麼講"},{"start":583.63,"end":604.906,"text":"因為當天的確是很好運 起火的當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙如果沒有及時發現 後果不堪設想而且三原是台泥集團向下的它是最高規的安全標準 在台灣而言它有三道消防和監測系統"},{"start":606.767,"end":626.615,"text":"在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器還有17000多顆的煙霧感測器而且採取多階段的防災應變設計包含導入日本的片鋼製片所的整合化整合式的化成系統"},{"start":627.475,"end":641.796,"text":"市值高達30億元的監測安全系統但是在這一次的爆炸當中這個30億元的所有的系統的運作都沒有達成預期的效果"},{"start":642.877,"end":657.453,"text":"導致火勢迅速蔓延然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備所以這麼有能力的財團大公司這麼高度專業的資本規模這麼好的子公司"},{"start":658.194,"end":673.847,"text":"都在製程中發現爆炸引發大火火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅而且還要持續灌水這麼多天而且有15個人受傷可見這個產業他的潛在風險這麼高如果如果不是台擬集團"},{"start":679.091,"end":697.905,"text":"是規模比較小的管理資源更有限的遇到這種狀況我肯定講他的傷亡他的環境衝擊會更嚴重對社區周遭社區的居民健康的威脅更是難以想像所以你們如果沒有我在這裡講"},{"start":698.686,"end":710.53,"text":"你們的治安署白紙寫黑字還在講離電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險所有的風險高風險都是在使用階段這種話還講得出來我今天講"},{"start":714.673,"end":737.003,"text":"鋰電池的製造的結構性挑戰他當然產能升級的同時要做好風險看管而且這是未來產業不是只有鋰電池而且還有所謂的除能除能產業除能產業正要大大的發展了所以這種狀況裡面這種事故如果一發生他是"},{"start":737.883,"end":762.151,"text":"還多重保護失效的結果在這種持續要優化保護層的風險管理的時候包括要防爆管理要完善VOC氣體偵測 排風系統的整合配置異常狀況下的自動連鎖停機或啟動通風壓制的措施所以它的火災有三大風險難預測 難撲滅 毒性高"},{"start":768.284,"end":792.399,"text":"鋰電池工廠除能工廠不要忘了2月今年在深坑鋰電池這個倉庫就爆炸了影響有多大不要再講到說美國的一個除能工廠在今年1月還是什麼時候他他爆炸是疏散1500人然後呢"},{"start":793.413,"end":812.127,"text":"在這種狀況裡面鋰電池熱失控有三種成因內部材料缺陷外部當然受到穿刺擠壓高溫環境或是使用的過程操作不當所以它並不是只有在使用階段它在製成的階段風險就非常高"},{"start":813.393,"end":825.514,"text":"部長你有沒有聽過去年南韓京畿道鋰亞電池工廠因為存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池你知道他們多少人死傷嗎"},{"start":828.006,"end":855.697,"text":"我有關注這個事件但是我沒有記得他我來舉這個例子跟你分享提醒你在一塊裡電池起火以後一個然後就急劇的擴散引發連續的爆炸當時有67個人在產線上然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸42秒就吞沒了工廠最後23人死亡"},{"start":857.717,"end":884.17,"text":"8個受傷這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一在去年才剛發生而你們的治安署還告訴我們說製程風險很低你知道當時的南韓水源地方法院在今年9月23號依照違反重大災害處罰法派遣法勤勞積存法判處公司的負責人"},{"start":885.25,"end":894.229,"text":"很重15年的有期徒刑而我們今天在講三元高雄的鋰電廠這個爆炸案以後"},{"start":895.578,"end":916.179,"text":"高雄市政府他就馬上去清查有多少組裝有多少生產勞動部你們對於鋁電池上中下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡如果你們暫時可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低那我就要替你們擔心了"},{"start":917.08,"end":941.177,"text":"甚至很多民眾連他自己他自己的風險都不知道他隔壁做電池的有沒有風險他也不知道沒有災害的意思所以在這種狀況裡面勞動部有沒有必要跟相關的部會整合治安法 災防法 獨管法我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利"},{"start":945.111,"end":957.968,"text":"他的風險高還是低製程風險跟我們說明其實已經有這樣的案例發生其實我們當然很難去說他是低的風險從韓國來看42秒就全場燒起來了20幾人死亡案例已經發生在眼前"},{"start":963.214,"end":979.421,"text":"那所以接下來那在我們的這個擴大的強化的減災計畫裡面其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質我知道但是如果今天沒有立委質詢你們是不是就沒有納管"},{"start":980.441,"end":1005.761,"text":"當然我覺得在回覆上面我覺得我們可以做一些檢討那其實只要是高風險的部分該納管的納管尤其這是一個大的公司那這也是包括電池產業其實也是大家非常關注的產業整個產業不是只有這一個公司整個產業包括除能產業台灣也剛起步要大大的發展這裡面我們知道你知道鋰電池的風險製造的風險我非常清楚因為我對能源產業很清楚"},{"start":1006.301,"end":1021.846,"text":"所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險的管理讓我再提醒你燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫本類當火警發生的時候對周遭的空氣氟化氫本類這是多麼可怕的事情"},{"start":1023.829,"end":1038.76,"text":"難怪會有20幾個人馬上死亡所以我們今天在講說你們現在不要講說納管納到高風險的管制裡面現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或者是除能產業的設備"},{"start":1040.922,"end":1059.689,"text":"你的安全規範到目前沒有現在製程安全規範完全沒有強制性規範零你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引但是呢在於安全的法律的規範上完全是零"},{"start":1060.749,"end":1088.266,"text":"所以由此可知你們治安署對於這一個產業不管是鋰電池或者是純能產業真的是掉以輕心啦這個部長根本說明比方說以像這樣這麼受指標跟關注的產業我自己是認為我們接下來應該要來跟相關的專家來協助把他們導演PSM就是自行安全管理的系統它直接就是應該是一個自行安全管理系統應該進來"},{"start":1089.767,"end":1097.272,"text":"那用這個方式其實來做一個更根本性的安全安全管理系統我們現在所定在可能相當規模相當資本以上規模以下你難道不需要製程安全的規範或是指引嗎"},{"start":1105.777,"end":1127.261,"text":"當然當然但我說就像剛剛以三元或者是像台尼這樣子的規模的企業來說我覺得他們其實應該是更可是台灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些規範安全規範可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範你們可不可以一併檢討當然當然那大概要多久三個月可以嗎三個月好OK謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":804,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時46分）謝謝主席。請洪部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，關於今天的修法，我曾經在新聞媒體上看到一個報導，就是說一個子公司的最高主管涉及霸凌，子公司也成立了一個不法侵害的調查小組，也有外聘的委員，就照勞動部的規定，然後調查報告出來也確認了這個霸凌。我今天要請問你，如果這樣的霸凌案要處分，結果送到母公司，母公司以董事會的決議，認為調查報告的程序有瑕疵，然後母公司要自己再去調查，或者是要修正子公司的調查報告，或者是直接決議不予處分，你覺得在現在的修法機制或現行的法律架構裡面，有這樣的爭議解決機制嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為現行其實比較是在不法侵害的架構下面來處理這件事情，它在程序上的規範並沒有那麼清楚，所以可能會產生像這樣的事情。"],["林委員淑芬：但我們現在要修法了，我現在還是要問你，同樣的事情在修法過後，有解決的機制嗎？子公司是不是一個獨立的法人？它獨立的法人調查報告出來，它的母公司也是一個獨立的法人，可是母公司的董事會可以否定掉子公司的調查報告，介入子公司的調查報告，然後介入人事的懲處，這樣子是可以的嗎？有解決的機制嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就現在我們在設計這個機制來說，我們就把子公司當作是一個獨立的法人，它的調查只要程序完備，就應該按照這個做出來的結果處理。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那母公司可以以董事會的決議，否定掉這一份子公司的調查報告嗎？母公司可以認定調查有瑕疵嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：瑕疵是地方政府來……如果程序上有瑕疵，是要由勞工用第三十九條，請地方主管機關來認定，不是母公司自己認定的。"],["林委員淑芬：現在是被認為涉及不法侵害的人──主管，還有母公司認為有瑕疵，因為它已經有調查報告了，然後這個勞工受僱者也確認調查報告的調查是事實，他認為他被霸凌了，調查報告也是這樣子了，那母公司可以這樣子處理嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：程序上有沒有瑕疵的認定，其實應該是要由地方的勞檢單位或者是勞檢的主管機關去認定。"],["林委員淑芬：好，現在如果母公司把這一個調查報告擱置了，要怎麼處理？有什麼解決機制？我在講的雖然是我從媒體上看的報導，但這樣的可能性存不存在？存在啊！母公司擁有子公司的人事決定權，可是當子公司要做出懲處的時候，母公司不同意，你在修法也都沒有談到這件事情，今天沒有辦法解決沒關係，你們回去好好思考。"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["林委員淑芬：我今天不是要談這個，其實大家都談很多了，我要提醒你另外一個議題，就是隨著全球電動車還有儲能市場的產業發展，鋰電池製造業正面臨了產能擴張還有安全管控的雙重挑戰。今年7月14日高雄小港的三元能源鋰電池工廠發生火災爆炸，而且很嚴重，造成了15個人受傷，其中有12名員工、3名消防員，而三元能源科技公司自己也自主調查，初步判斷事故是指向「多重系統異常與事件疊加」情況，包括不明高溫熱源流經靜置區引發電池噴發、設備自動消防系統未能即時有效啟動，以及後續電力中斷導致廠區消防系統失效。","以三元能源科技高雄廠的火災爆炸事件為例，我要請教你，鋰電池工廠、鋰電池製造它有沒有列管在勞動檢查法第二十六條規定，需要做出製程安全評估報告，5年要做一次，然後要有比較高風險的風險評估責任？它有在甲、乙類工作場所以及丙類工作所及的優先管理化學品超過報備臨界的事業單位的這一些管制範圍裡面，然後列管嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，就三元能源這個案例來說，目前沒有被放進納管的範圍。"],["林委員淑芬：完全沒有，對。"],["洪部長申翰：但是接下來，因為今天談的是職安法的修法，我們預計也許在11月或12月會提出一個更完整的減災計畫，那這個減災……"],["林委員淑芬：但願如此，為什麼這麼說呢？因為職安署在我辦公室詢問這件事情的時候是這樣回復我們：「鋰電池目前並非甲、乙、丙類，因為製造過程中並沒有管制物品。鋰電池之所以容易爆炸是在『使用階段』，包含過度充電、過度放電或者外部損傷，以及電解液儲存不當。鋰電池在製造過程其實是低風險，而是成品使用中才是爆炸的高風險」，職安署白紙寫黑字這樣回復我辦公室，跟你剛剛講的完全是顛倒的。","我們看到他們公司自主的報告，起火原因就寫到人為操作或機械異常，導致瑕疵半成品進入化成半成品常溫靜置區釀災，所以他們認為火災可能是在生產流程中，自動外觀檢查製程因故轉成人工目視，本來是自動化的檢查變成人工目視，因為人員沒有遵循完整的SOP，造成檢查過程發生碰撞或瑕疵未被檢出；第二個，於自動化流程中，機械設備因故發生異常，造成移轉電芯半成品位置過程發生碰撞造成瑕疵未被檢出。","在這種狀況裡面，請問部長，你們的公文回復林淑芬辦公室，都在講製程的風險太低了，都是在使用的過程才容易有這個風險，使用過程才是爆炸的高風險。那剛剛講三元，你們在講製造過程的定義是什麼？從三元爆炸的新聞內容來看，他們自己的報告，這個是使用階段，還是製造、製程的階段？"],["洪部長申翰：就工廠來說的話，當然是製程的階段。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！那你們說低風險不納管。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，其實這幾個月我們一直跟職安署在檢討，我們過去高風險物質的納管範圍太小了。"],["林委員淑芬：你們剛回復我們耶！你們剛回復林淑芬辦公室，你們沒有要納管。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：剛剛才回復，白紙寫黑字。"],["洪部長申翰：我們把這些相關的案例再重新做一些檢視。"],["林委員淑芬：現在立委沒有質詢的話，沒有這個案子的話，我想你們還是不會納管，而且你們是不是會要求一定規模的鋰電池工廠都要比照緊急應變措施技術指引規定？不是只有5年申報一次的製程評估報告，還要有定期辦理緊急應變的演練，針對現場作業人員的應變能力、安全訓練，也要建立在定期演練的制度，特別是一定規模以上存放大量電池的廠區，更應該要落實人員的訓練和演練，確保在事故發生的時候能夠即時應變。","為什麼我們這麼講？因為當天的確是很好運，起火當天是因為大夜班的員工發現半成品區在冒煙，如果沒有及時發現，後果不堪設想。而且三元是台泥集團項下的，在臺灣而言，它是最高規的安全標準，它有3道消防和監測系統，在廠區內部部署了33萬顆溫度感測器，還有一萬七千多顆的煙霧感測器，而且採取多階段的防災應變設計，包含導入日本片岡製作所的整合式化成系統，斥資高達30億元的監測安全系統，但是在這一次的爆炸當中，這個30億元的系統所有的運作都沒有達成預期的效果，導致火勢迅速蔓延，然後蔓延到備援的電源和關鍵設備。這麼有能力的財團大公司，這麼高度專業的、資本規模這麼好的子公司都在製程中發生爆炸，引發大火，火勢歷經27個小時才撲滅，還要持續灌水這麼多天，而且有15個人受傷，可見這個產業的潛在風險這麼高。如果不是台泥集團，而是規模比較小的、管理資源更有限的，遇到這種狀況，我肯定講，它的傷亡、它的環境衝擊會更嚴重，對周遭社區居民的健康威脅更是難以想像。如果沒有我在這裡講，你們的職安署白紙寫黑字，還在講鋰電池工廠並不是在製程裡面高風險，所有的高風險都是在使用階段，這種話還講得出來。","鋰電池製造的結構性挑戰，當然在產能升級的同時也要做好風險看管，而且這是未來產業，不是只有鋰電池，還有所謂的儲能產業，儲能產業正要大大地發展，所以在這種狀況裡面，這種事故如果一發生，它還是多重保護失效的結果，在這種要持續優化保護層風險管理的時候，包括防爆管理要完善、VOC氣體偵測與排風系統的整合配置，以及異常狀況下的自動聯鎖停機或啟動通風壓制措施，所以它的火災有三大風險──難預測、難撲滅、毒性高。","鋰電池工廠、儲能工廠，不要忘了，今年2月在深坑的鋰電池倉庫就爆炸了，影響有多大？更不要說美國的一個儲能工廠，在今年1月還是什麼時候，它爆炸是疏散1,500人，在這種狀況，鋰電池熱失控有三種成因，內部是材料缺陷，外部當然是受到穿刺擠壓，還有高溫環境，或是使用的過程操作不當，所以並不是只有在使用階段有風險，在製程的階段風險就非常高。部長，你有沒有聽過，去年南韓京畿道鋰電池工廠存放了3.5萬顆鋰電池，發生火災，你知道多少人死傷嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我有關心這個事件，但是我沒有記得確切死亡人數。"],["林委員淑芬：我舉這個例子跟你分享，提醒你。在一塊電池起火以後，然後就急遽擴散，引發連續的爆炸，當時有67個人在產線上，然後電池在短時間歷經三次爆炸，火舌在42秒內就吞沒了工廠，最後造成23人死亡、8人受傷，這是南韓最嚴重的化工事故之一，在去年才剛發生，而你們的職安署還在告訴我們說製程風險很低，可是你知道嗎？南韓水原地方法院在今年9月23日，依照違反重大災害處罰法、派遣法、勤勞基準法，判處公司的負責人15年有期徒刑，判得很重，而我們今天在講的高雄三元鋰電廠發生爆炸以後，高雄市政府就馬上去清查有多少組裝、有多少生產，勞動部對於鋰電池上、中、下游相關產業以及風險的評估在哪裡？如果你們職安署可以回復林淑芬辦公室說製程風險很低，那我就要替你們擔心了，甚至很多民眾連他自己身邊的風險都不知道，他家隔壁做電池有沒有風險，他也不知道，沒有災害的意識，所以在這種狀況裡面，勞動部有沒有必要跟相關部會整合職安法、災防法、毒管法？我們是不是應該要讓民眾有知的權利？製程風險是高還是低？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，已經有這樣的案例發生，我們很難說是低風險。"],["林委員淑芬：從韓國這個案例來看，只有42秒就全廠燒起來了，二十幾人死亡。"],["洪部長申翰：案例已經發生在眼前，所以接下來，在我們擴大的強化減災計畫裡面，其中有一項就會是擴大納管高風險的這些生產上面的物質。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道，但是如果今天沒有立委質詢，你們是不是就沒有納管？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得在回復上面，我們可以做一些檢討，只要是高風險的部分，該納管就納管，尤其這是一個大的公司，包括電子產業也是大家非常關心的產業。"],["林委員淑芬：整個產業，不是只有這個公司，而是整個產業，包括儲能產業，在臺灣也剛起步，要大大地發展，而這裡面，你知道鋰電池製造的風險有多大嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：非常非常清楚，因為我對能源產業很清楚，所以他們如果沒有辦法在這個階段把安全風險管理做好，對他們的產業也會有很大的影響。"],["林委員淑芬：讓我再提醒你，燃燒的鋰電池可能會產生氟化氫、苯類，當火警發生的時候，對周遭的空氣會產生污染，產生氟化氫和苯類，這是多麼可怕的事情，難怪會有二十幾個人馬上死亡。你們現在不要講納管、不要講納到高風險的管制裡面，現在你們對於鋰電池的製造或儲能產業設備的相關安全規範，到目前沒有，現在製程安全規範完全沒有！強制性規範0，你們只有在儲能產業上有建議的指引，但是在安全的、法律的規範上，完全是0，所以由此可知，你們職安署對於這個產業，不管是鋰電池或者是儲能產業，真的是掉以輕心，部長。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，像這樣這麼受關注的指標產業，我自己認為我們接下來應該要跟相關的專家來協助他們，把他們導引至PSM，就是製程安全管理的系統、就是應該直接進入製程安全管理系統，用這個方式來做更根本性的安全管理。"],["林委員淑芬：製程安全管理系統，我們現在鎖定在有相當規模的、有相當資本以上的企業。"],["洪部長申翰：對，就像這樣的企業。"],["林委員淑芬：但是我要講，在這個規模以下的企業，難道不需要製程安全的規範或指引嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["林委員淑芬：目前是都沒有。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。就像三元或台泥這樣子規模的企業來說，我覺得他們其實應該直接導引至PSM。"],["林委員淑芬：可是臺灣的中小企業可能也必須要有一些安全規範。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["林委員淑芬：可是你們現在也沒有任何的安全規範，你們可不可以一併檢討？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，當然，當然。"],["林委員淑芬：大概要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：3個月。"],["林委員淑芬：OK。謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164185","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164185","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6bcc889c53029f42bbc2e7a8918bc9e77b6741136213cfef6ba60f46e32a191315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"11:32:55 - 11:46:41","影片長度":"00:13:46","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T11:32:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T11:46:41+08:00","duration":826,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.215343750000002,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.47159375,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.84659375,"end":18.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.86346875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.57221875,"end":19.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.78284375,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.54971875,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.48971875,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.970343750000005,"end":45.104093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.44159375,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.73534375,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.77221875000001,"end":104.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.47034375000001,"end":109.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.78596875000001,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.07346875000002,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.40659375,"end":134.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.67659375,"end":135.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.19971875000002,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.63846875000002,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.35534375,"end":141.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.21971875,"end":144.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.34159375000002,"end":152.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.26034375,"end":152.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.15471875,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.59346875,"end":195.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.86534375000002,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.91596875000002,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":231.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.33221875,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.79096875000002,"end":241.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.40659375,"end":247.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.27909375000002,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.47284375,"end":252.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.66659375,"end":252.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.75909375,"end":258.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.50534375,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.80346875000004,"end":293.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.46596875,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.20784375,"end":306.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.70034375,"end":307.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.06721875,"end":323.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.96346875,"end":324.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.19971875000005,"end":324.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.10659375,"end":349.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.13659375000003,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.36784375,"end":373.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.79096875000005,"end":409.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.35096875000005,"end":429.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.38971875000004,"end":441.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.85221875,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.75909375000003,"end":448.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.12534375,"end":450.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.62721875000005,"end":451.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","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暫時不適合做地勤的工作可是這華航還是要求他回去桃園機場做這地勤的工作那我請問一下我們調平司我們的司長還有我們勞動法務司的司長請問一下這雇主這樣的行為有沒有強迫勞動的情形"},{"start":83.116,"end":103.92,"text":"跟委員報告這個個案裡面基本上之前我們有瞭解他其實在直災期間直災的工商病假這個部分是沒有爭議那現在的爭議是針對醫主上面是不是他可以復職的這個部分那雙方其實正在協商因為有不同的這個專業醫師提出來的專業意見有所差異"},{"start":107.601,"end":132.415,"text":"那我们子安署这边也有协助那这个部分其实我们会建议这个我们其实也有建议公司要跟员工好好的协商因为他这个部分的工伤病假有请了一段时间那基本上如果他双方这个专业的医嘱证明是他需要再复健需要再医疗他其实工伤病假是需要持续的"},{"start":133.1,"end":160.148,"text":"好那我也希望我做我做我做點說明這個職災的空服員其實我之前有親自探望那我有請同仁持續的協助那這個空服員當然跟我們表達其實公司在工商併價的請假的這個程序上面比較久那也有一些自費的項目那因為這個團保的給付沒有認所以公司不願意負擔"},{"start":161.408,"end":178.369,"text":"那這部分我其實也已經請職安署去跟華航公司談那目前的確公司在這方面接觸下來是比較消極的所以我10月7號對不對上禮拜職安署有再一次打電話給華航那告知"},{"start":180.649,"end":194.994,"text":"如果是本部認可的職業醫學的醫師的話那開立在有這個休養期間的診斷證明書那就應該要依照這個如果勞工是依照規定來申請工商病假話就應該盡速的來給工商病假"},{"start":195.894,"end":214.883,"text":"我們上一代其實有再一次跟公司表達這個立場對 所以我說因為現在剛好也發生長榮航空這個情勢所以我們希望像這一類的情勢勞動部還是要主動介入調查不要等到事情發生再來亡羊補牢而且我們也知道最近我們自行車大廠"},{"start":215.903,"end":238.044,"text":"也因為涉及強迫勞動的情勢而且被美國海關扣留禁書所以這一部分我們還是要多注意你看這影響的層面其實是很大連這個美國海關針對強迫勞動的情形他都給他扣留禁書所以這希望部長針對這一方面還是多幫我們關心來了解"},{"start":239.824,"end":265.853,"text":"好 那我們就回到今天針對我們航空業職場健康的主題那我們前空服員職業工會的秘書長劉嘉偉 他有發文揭露林林嘉偉 對 林嘉偉 對 抱歉林嘉偉那他說這個長榮航空在短短的一年之內就違反這個性平法針對申請"},{"start":267.884,"end":292.451,"text":"生理假 家庭照顾假的劳工进行不利的处分那我们也看得到针对我们劳动部提供的我们劳动法令事业单位查询系统在这四年内我们发现了我们两大航空的巨头在违反性贫法 工会法 劳基法 职安法这一部分这四年内各发生了23件"},{"start":294.997,"end":320.53,"text":"25件所以我們可以知道我們兩大的航空巨頭現在看起來是我們違反勞動法規的大戶那針對這樣的情形不知道部長有沒有掌握有所以這部分情形看4年內就發生那麼多所以表示他們針對這部分你看4年內就發生那麼多那我覺得對我們航空業這個巨頭這個指標我覺得這應該勞動部應該多多嚴格的監督才對當然"},{"start":326.158,"end":349.05,"text":"那而且針對這部分那我請問一下部長我們針對促進性別工作平等還有懷孕婦女的母性照顧以及創造育嬰育兒的友善工作環境因應少子化危機現在也是我們勞動部跟衛福部這兩大機關我們近年來大力宣傳的重要政策對不對"},{"start":350.768,"end":373.296,"text":"不只是宣傳我們都希望能夠做得更好更到位對啊那居然是我們重要的政策方向那為什麼我們長榮航空你看還有包括華航那這公然大力走我們政策倒車的部分那難道部長針對這部分沒有強烈的去了解去關心"},{"start":375.416,"end":401.687,"text":"其實航空業其實他女性的員工的比例不低那跟這些性工法相關的不管是孕流值或生理價或家照價相關的其實的確我們認為這應該是航空業接下來應該要特別注意跟改善的部分依照現在目前這個不管是長榮也好或者是華航也好這些相關被裁罰的紀錄來說我想這"},{"start":404.144,"end":429.569,"text":"不太符合國人對於他們這個社會責任的期待所以因為今天發生長榮航空空服員這個事情我們大家才重視到你看所以你看他們這兩大航空巨頭其實你看這四年內其實他們就違反這麼多勞動法規的規定所以其實因為發生這以後我們大家才注意到所以其實他們這算是長期的累犯"},{"start":431.448,"end":440.259,"text":"而且看一下部長你看一下我們提供的這部分這個我看剛剛王玉敏委員跟劉建國委員都有提到針對這個他們違反"},{"start":443.84,"end":462.435,"text":"性平法這些等等開罰這些紀錄你看他都是罰最低的金額那根據我們違反勞動法規的裁罰基準第一次罰最低那累犯第二次第三次他還是這樣子罰最低的金額嗎目前看起來的確因為這個是台灣市勞動省區在開罰的"},{"start":470.868,"end":494.194,"text":"那我們會來跟台灣市勞檢局包括我們找民航局一起啦那特別針對比方像航空業那台灣市勞檢局有定一個他們的一個裁罰的基準剛才其實前面的委員有秀出來那相對於像這樣子的這麼大型的企業是不是要用同一個基準還是是應該要有更加嚇阻力的裁罰的方法我認為這事情我們會跟"},{"start":495.114,"end":516.953,"text":"包括民航局跟台灣稅務檢局一起來我覺得來討論怎麼樣把賀祖利可以提高所以部長你要知道其實它本身這個大企業就像剛剛文砥委員也有提到其實這麼大的企業它財閥這個金額對他們來講其實可能不痛不癢而且財閥的基準應該是正式越發越重你看它這個累犯"},{"start":518.434,"end":534.561,"text":"這個短短的時間內就犯了七件然後而且七件每次都還是罰最低的金額你罰高的金額都未必對它有遏止的效果更何況還是才罰最低所以這一部分我希望勞動部能夠掌握來去了解一下好不好"},{"start":536.102,"end":549.307,"text":"希望部長 這個事情已經發生了我們希望針對這一部分還是要來去重視針對這一部分是不是因為這樣子的裁罰對他們完全產生不了這個嚇阻的效果好 謝謝"},{"start":550.046,"end":569.235,"text":"好那還有針對本席在6月18號有質詢我們部長針對新制教昭那時候我們有講他因為現在新制教昭是14天那勞動部是勞工的主管機關那站在勞工的權益來講他這14天"},{"start":570.856,"end":593.515,"text":"之後有可能馬上接連著上班的問題那而且有可能連續上20幾天就是14天上完馬上上班有可能等於連續上20幾天的班那當時有請勞動部針對這部分去了解請跟國防部來溝通可是後來我看國防部發給桃園市產業總工會6月25號的回文"},{"start":596.557,"end":612.596,"text":"國防部說 教招結束訓練都在週五的下午16點隔日即為國定例假日請教部長 我們國家的勞動法規有規定所謂的國定例假日嗎"},{"start":615.578,"end":640.033,"text":"我們沒有明定例假一定要在禮拜六或禮拜天所以國防部這個回文規定他的意思是說到週五14天上完馬上就是六日放假但是他未必六日放假有可能就像我講他14天上完馬上接連就上七天他可能連續上21天的班所以針對這一部分我們全台灣一千多萬的勞工"},{"start":641.334,"end":655.416,"text":"那而且我們並不是國定例假日所以這部分是不是國防部對於我們勞工的出勤的實際的狀況認知是不清楚的那勞動部針對這部分有跟國防部好好溝通協調嗎"},{"start":657.202,"end":687.022,"text":"因為這個文我們沒有拿到對 這上次我有質詢那我下次我說這個國防部的這個回文我們沒有拿到對 所以我現在就是讓部長知道這件事情因為當初是我們在質詢的時候請我們勞動部來協助所以是不是勞動部要跟國防部來溝通一下因為我們當初就講你這14天再接著上班有可能他是連續上20幾天的班我們可以來跟國防部來了解一下"},{"start":687.603,"end":695.436,"text":"那我们是建议啦其实居然他这个我们可以知道我们新制这个教召"},{"start":696.556,"end":719.699,"text":"其實是為了加強這個訓練強度那國家要求全國民眾配合那當然包含了雇主還有這個受雇的勞工那針對這部分我們是那時候就是建議14天工假之外是不是給他再加一天等於15天的工假那對於我們要照顧"},{"start":720.66,"end":741.286,"text":"我們的勞工也要減輕雇主的負擔當然我知道說我們全數有列報薪資費用之外還可以薪資加成150%的減除這個規定那我覺得這個部分可能誘因還是不足那為了照顧勞工也保障雇主的權益我們建議這個薪資"},{"start":744.306,"end":769.718,"text":"申報減稅加成部分是不是可以增加甚至加看針對這一天的部分是不是可以加到300%的部分不然你這14天他有可能連續就像我們講因為你沒有給他這一天他有可能因為法規上沒有強制國定立假日勞工有可能14天的薪資交召再加上馬上回到工作崗位他可能連續上班是20幾天"},{"start":771.896,"end":780.646,"text":"跟委員說明因為剛剛委員講到不要減稅的部分可能會是財政部或其他部會的權責但是因為委員其實已經質詢過幾次的這個議題"},{"start":783.021,"end":803.878,"text":"那我们第一个我们会来跟国防部再了解一下他们这里面的一些想法跟考虑对 当然我希望我们整个配套去做好并不是说无限上纲让雇主去承担这14天又再加一天变15天的工价但是我们担心的是劳工的部分有可能因为这样子的"},{"start":805.1,"end":821.167,"text":"心智教召再加上馬上回到工作崗位有可能會造成過勞連續上班二十幾天的問題那當然我希望勞動部跟國防部甚至我們的稅捐單位能夠溝通協調來重視這個問題好 謝謝好 這部分請我們勞動部再多幫忙協調溝通好 謝謝部長好 謝謝土偉 謝謝部長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":760,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時33分）謝謝主席，請勞動部洪申翰部長、條平司黃司長還有勞動法務司黃司長。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：來，有請。"],["洪部長申翰：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，針對長榮航空空服員離世，也讓社會大眾重新開始認識航空產業的職場問題。我們也看到前天前立委邱顯智有附圖而且指控華航，這個空服員其實已經在榮總有開立診斷證明，醫生也建議他多休息，暫時不適合做地勤的工作，可是華航還是要求他回桃園機場做地勤的工作。請問條平司司長還有勞動法務司的司長，雇主這樣的行為有沒有強迫勞動的情形？"],["黃司長琦雅：跟委員報告，在這個個案裡，基本上之前我們有了解，他在職災期間的公傷病假部分沒有爭議，現在的爭議是針對醫囑是不是可以復職的部分，雙方正在協商，因為有不同的專業醫師提出來的專業意見有所差異，職安署也有協助。其實我們也有建議公司要跟員工好好協商，因為他這個部分的公傷病假已經請了一段時間，基本上如果專業的醫囑證明需要再復健、需要再醫療，他的公傷病假是需要持續的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我也希望……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我做一點說明，其實我之前有親自探望這位職災的空服員，也有請同仁持續協助。這個空服員有跟我們表達，其實公司在公傷病假的請假程序走比較久，也有一些自費的項目因為團保給付沒有認，所以公司不願意負擔，這部分我也請職安署去跟華航公司談。目前接觸下來，公司在這方面的確是比較消極的，所以10月7日上禮拜職安署也有再一次打電話給華航，告知如果是本部認可的醫學醫師再開立有休養期間的診斷證明書，而勞工是依照規定來申請公傷病假，就應該盡速給公傷病假。我們上禮拜其實有再一次跟公司表達這個立場。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為現在剛好也發生長榮航空這個情事，所以我們希望像這一類的情事，勞動部還是要主動介入調查，不要等到事情發生再來亡羊補牢。而且我們也知道最近自行車大廠因為涉及強迫勞動，被美國海關扣留禁輸，所以這一部分還是要多注意。你看這影響的層面其實很大，連美國海關都針對強迫勞動的公司扣留禁輸，希望部長在這方面還是多幫忙關心、了解。","回到今天針對航空業職場健康的主題，前空服員職業工會秘書長游佳瑋有發文揭露……"],["洪部長申翰：林。"],["涂委員權吉：是林佳瑋，抱歉。林佳瑋說長榮航空在短短一年之內就違反性平法，針對申請生理假、家庭照顧假的勞工，進行不利的處分。從勞動部提供的勞動法令事業單位查詢系統，我們發現兩大航空巨頭違反性平法、工會法、勞基法、職安法，在這4年內各發生了23件、25件，這兩大航空巨頭現在看起來是違反勞動法規的大戶！針對這樣的情形，部長有沒有掌握？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這部分，他們在這4年內就發生那麼多次，對於航空業巨頭這個指標，我覺得勞動部應該多多嚴格監督才對。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["涂委員權吉：請問部長，針對促進性別工作平等還有懷孕婦女的母性照顧，以及創造育嬰育兒的友善工作環境，因應少子化危機，現在也是勞動部跟衛福部這兩大機關近年來大力宣傳的重要政策，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：不只是宣傳，我們都希望能夠做得更好、更到位。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！既然是重要的政策方向，為什麼長榮航空還有華航公然、大力走政策倒車？難道部長針對這部分沒有強烈的了解、關心？"],["洪部長申翰：其實航空業女性員工的比例不低，跟這些性工法相關的，不管是育嬰留職或生理假、家照假，我們認為這應該是航空業接下來要特別注意跟改善的部分。不管是長榮也好，或者華航也好，依照目前這些相關被裁罰的紀錄來說，我想不太符合國人對於他們社會責任的期待。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！因為今天發生長榮航空空服員這個事情，大家才重視到。你看這兩大航空巨頭在這4年內就違反這麼多勞動法規的規定，而因為發生這次事件，大家才注意到，所以他們算是長期的累犯。","部長，你看一下我們提供的部分，剛剛王育敏委員跟劉建國委員都有提到，針對他們違反性平法等等開罰的這些紀錄，你看都是罰最低的金額。根據違反勞動法規的裁罰基準，第一次罰最低，累犯第二次、第三次還是罰最低的金額嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：目前看起來，因為這個是桃園市勞檢處在開罰的啦！我們會來跟桃園市勞檢處，也會找民航局一起，特別針對比方像航空業，桃園市勞檢處有訂一個裁罰的基準，剛剛其實前面的委員有show出來。對於像這麼大型的企業是不是要用同一個基準，還是應該要有更加嚇阻力的裁罰方法？我認為這件事情我們會跟民航局及桃園市勞檢處一起來討論怎麼樣可以把嚇阻力提高。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！部長要知道，剛剛劉委員也有提到，這麼大的企業被裁罰這個金額，對他們來講可能不痛不癢，而且裁罰的基準應該是越罰越重。你看這種累犯短短的時間內就犯了7件，而且7件每次都還是罰最低的金額，罰高的金額都未必對它有遏止的效果，更何況還是裁罰最低，所以這部分我希望勞動部能夠掌握，去瞭解一下，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，當然。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，雖然這件事情已經發生了，我們希望針對這部分還是要去重視，因為這樣的裁罰對他們完全產生不了嚇阻的效果。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：本席在6月18日針對新制教召有質詢部長，那時候我們有講，因為現在新制教召是14天，勞動部是勞工的主管機關，站在勞工的權益來講，他在這14天之後有可能馬上接連著上班的問題，而且有可能連續上二十幾天，就是14天教召完馬上上班，等於連續上二十幾天的班。當時也有請勞動部針對這部分去瞭解，跟國防部溝通，可是後來我看國防部發給桃園市產業總工會6月25日的回文，國防部說教召結束訓練都在週五的下午16點，隔日即為國定例假日。請教部長，我們國家的勞動法規有規定所謂的國定例假日嗎？"],["黃司長琦雅：跟委員報告，我們沒有明定例假一定要在禮拜六或禮拜天，這是由雙方決定。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！所以國防部這個回文規定，它的意思是說到週五14天上完，馬上就是六、日放假，但是他未必六、日放假，有可能就像我講的，他14天教召完馬上接連就上7天，他可能連續上21天的班。","針對這部分，全臺灣有一千多萬的勞工，而且隔日並不一定是國定例假日，所以國防部是不是對於勞工出勤的實際狀況，認知是不清楚的？勞動部有跟國防部好好溝通協調嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，因為這個文我們沒有拿到。"],["涂委員權吉：對，這個上次我有質詢，我現在是……"],["洪部長申翰：我是說國防部這個回文我們沒有拿到。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我現在就是讓部長知道這件事情，因為當初我們是在質詢的時候請勞動部來協助，所以勞動部是不是要跟國防部來溝通一下？因為我們當初就講，教召14天再接著上班，有可能他是連續上二十幾天的班。"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以來跟國防部瞭解一下。"],["涂委員權吉：那我們是建議啦！我們知道新制教召其實是為了加強訓練強度，國家要求全國民眾配合，當然包含了雇主還有受僱勞工，針對這一部分，我們那時候是建議14天公假之外，是不是給他再加1天？等於15天的公假，因為我們要照顧勞工，也要減輕雇主的負擔。","當然我知道我們有全數列報薪資費用之外，還有薪資加成150%的減除規定，我覺得這個部分可能誘因還是不足啦！為了照顧勞工也保障雇主的權益，我們建議薪資申報減稅加成部分是不是可以增加？甚至針對這1天的部分，是不是可以加到300%？不然這14天就像我們講的，如果你沒有給他這1天，他有可能因為法規上沒有強制國定例假日，勞工有可能14天的新制教召再加上馬上回到工作崗位，他可能連續上班是二十幾天！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，剛剛委員講到比方減稅的部分，可能會是財政部或其他部會的權責，但是委員已經質詢過幾次這個議題，所以第一個，我們再來跟國防部瞭解一下這裡面的一些想法和考慮。"],["涂委員權吉：對，當然我希望整個配套去做好，並不是說無限上綱，讓雇主去承擔這14天再加1天變15天的公假，但我們擔心的是，勞工的部分有可能因為這樣的新制教召，再加上馬上回到工作崗位，可能會造成連續上班二十幾天過勞的問題，我希望勞動部跟國防部，甚至稅捐單位，能夠溝通協調來重視這個問題。"],["洪部長申翰：是，好，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：這部分請勞動部再多幫忙協調、溝通。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長，請回。","接下來請林淑芬委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164184","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6bef88bb8149fef5b97bc26f8a2da1058b6741136213cfef6ba60f46e32a191315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:57:48 - 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,{"start":100.279,"end":107.588,"text":"這個大概我們都有在做這些講的很多啦從制度面來講我們也創立了本來都只有一個審核報告我們現在把營業非營業公務"},{"start":115.198,"end":138.821,"text":"這些就按這個把它編成一個審核報告比較容易讓大眾閱讀成立了總結算的那個查核平台它可以用進去以後整個就可以查5年到10年的相關的我們審計資料那你第二任期呢 你第二任期重大的"},{"start":139.341,"end":157.454,"text":"因為任期剛剛講的我們潤性剛剛在談現在極端氣候我們有一個提出潤性審計像我們的下水道 排水道像那個雨水排水道現在極端氣候來的時候都大水嘛我們就希望"},{"start":158.194,"end":180.009,"text":"从润性审计的时候就是希望把它的那个雨水排水道这个本来是7000多公里现在还完成5000多公里还差2000多公里因为现在整个极端气候从哪里来不晓得所以我们提出润性审计所以为什么最近容易淹水你认为是从雨水下水道"},{"start":180.689,"end":198.419,"text":"因為我們要多方考慮除了它極端下雨量很大但是怎麼樣把水排出去變成重要你哪一個階段清衣沒有做好或者哪一個階段沒有把它打通"},{"start":199.319,"end":218.796,"text":"它都會造成整個淹水這一次南部有一些淹水那就是我們看高雄有兩百多公里台南也有兩百多公里都沒有那個雨水下水道都沒做像這個我們會慢慢要求國土計畫署盡量幫助地方把這事情做好這個對人民的生命財產安全影響很大"},{"start":226.543,"end":235.108,"text":"所以我們要做的像我們最近強調我們台灣的優勢就是AI那我們會從AI裡面來發展智慧審計智慧審計就是一種有些事情都藏在細節裡面我們用智慧審計可以把它整個系統性的風險剛剛講的幾個系統性的風險找出來"},{"start":252.117,"end":261.35,"text":"再來我們因為國家勇氣很重要像財政要勇氣各方面的勇氣我們都會慢慢做最後我們是希望能幫助整個政府促進良善助理"},{"start":267.554,"end":293.642,"text":"好 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謝謝昭緯 請陳部長我們請陳部長部長 先請教一下現在台美的關稅還在談判但是現在大家當然也會擔心的就是對於我們的農業的一些影響那我先問一下 稻米的部分會不會現在談判中"},{"start":28.683,"end":53.073,"text":"因為現在在談判中所以很多細節不便在這邊說明而且它還有不確定性因為美國現在的處理方式我想你們看媒體都知道但是農業部本身一定是在堅守我們的糧食安全還有我們產業永續穩定另外確保農民收益這三個原則那稻米是糧食安全一個非常重要的非常重要的一環所以我們以我們的立場這個我們應該會盡力來守護這一塊"},{"start":56.514,"end":85.957,"text":"在这个部分进一来守住稻米这一块好那鸡肉的部分其实现在鸡肉的美国进来的量也不少那如果降下来的话有可能会让我们的自给率降到五成甚至更低我想鸡肉的部分基本上我们现在美国进来的都是百分之百都是美国进来的大概百分之三十六左右然后鸡肉本身它有它特定的品规到不同的通路市场那同样的就是以我们国内使用鸡肉的这个数量跟稻米差不多了"},{"start":86.877,"end":114.839,"text":"這個四十幾公斤左右所以相對的我們也是把它認定是在糧食安全產業的一環很重要的一環我們會持續的所以雞肉這塊也會努力來守住啦努力來爭取 努力來守住啦好 謝謝那豬肉跟牛肉的部分呢特別是在一些非關稅的貿易障礙像標示的部分這個大概美國很在意啦這個我們會那個標示的部分也是衛福部的部分那我們是負責國內的產業所以我剛才說的任何的品項我剛才說的我們會分三類一類就是說"},{"start":116.089,"end":133.26,"text":"因為我是覺得零關稅並不可怕如果零關稅對我們產業有幫助的對我們的成本降低有幫助的那這個部分是一個區塊另外一個區塊是其實國內的產業本身就相當穩定那國外進口的部分進來了以後它可能是不同的進口國之間的替代"},{"start":133.88,"end":159.866,"text":"那相對的也比較好處理那另外一個區塊不可否認的一定有一些產業可能會受到一些影響但是這些影響我們都有做評估然後相關的可能的支持的產業支持的措施也會出來所以這個如果豬肉跟牛肉產生了衝擊的時候那我們會給予協助我想我們特別條例特別預算給予協助現在的談判還有非常高的不確定性那這些等所有的關稅"},{"start":160.746,"end":189.307,"text":"真正的完全確認了以後那我們相關的這些全部談完了之後哪些受到影響我們就用我們政府的資源給予協助讓他們渡過這波難關跟我們報告其實我們所有的品項我們都因為現在很多不確定性所以每個品項它的產業的動態產業的可能的衝擊我們每個品項都有做分析那有一些分析是可能不需要的那有一些可能是需要的我們會再來調整好我們也期待農業部持續然後一方面確保就剛剛"},{"start":190.207,"end":214.998,"text":"部長講那幾個原則下來確保我們農民的一些權益當然也給予他們更多的支持跟照顧好 謝謝再要請教一下吳三頭水庫這件事情其實是被攻擊得很厲害其實早上有其他委員關照這個是清水嘛對不對清水來清洗沒有任何的清潔劑的部分這是事實嗎我跟委員報告就是在相關的合約規定整個光電一定要用清水洗"},{"start":215.618,"end":236.493,"text":"那我們在烏山酒水庫裡面檢測到的確有檢測到一些非常微量的這些硬粒子活性介面劑那外界有在質疑這個硬粒子活性介面劑這些微量的是由清潔劑造成的我只是舉一個例子如果要造成微量的0.07這樣子的一個量的時候大概要將近到"},{"start":237.873,"end":258.749,"text":"0.03就要它12噸12噸的清潔劑才有可能造成所以那等於是有點惡意侵盜才會有的才有可能目前沒有任何的證據有這樣的狀況在自然界包括動植物的這些屍體腐敗以後有機的這些分解的過程中也會產生所以我們認為它是一個背景值最重要就是什麼"},{"start":259.329,"end":285.657,"text":"它遠低於我們的灌溉水質的標準灌溉水質標準是5毫克它只有0.03毫克那也遠低於我們的實用標準實用標準是0.5毫克所以這個我相信要請民眾來安心但是後續我們會更精進的把關就是未來會讓我們民眾消除疑慮就是任何要清洗的時候我們會做裝備檢查就是它不准帶不該帶的這些東西來確保"},{"start":286.897,"end":313.063,"text":"是 所以是用清水清洗絕對不可以用清潔劑而這樣的量而這樣的看起來它也是一個背景值啦這個背景值不管是它是藻類或者是帶洩物或者是動植物的甚至於有機的分解它就是個背景值而且它遠低於我們的安全的標準所以我覺得要用科學的問題來面對這些問題如果不斷地用一些訊息去影響的話這個很容易人心惶惶我覺得這樣的"},{"start":314.523,"end":337.456,"text":"事實的狀態還是要麻煩衛福部這個未來只會越來越多啦這樣的造謠造假抹黑東西越來越多我希望未來的農業部在第一時間齁幾乎等到了一段時間才出來我希望未來這個能夠在一天最晚兩天內一定要馬上出來第一時間止住這樣的惡意的一些訊息的時候才能讓大家感覺到政府很清楚的掌握狀況而且在確保大家的安全"},{"start":337.896,"end":364.404,"text":"我跟委員報告我們也會在第一時間發這個但是我也期待就是說我們大家彼此一起努力不要用誤導的方式去讓民眾覺得說他有毒這些東西我們都期待但是有時候很難因為要故意去攻擊你傷害你 造謠你的人其實就是會出現那我們能做的就是我們必須要站在捍衛的第一線因為我們要確保所有的農民確保所有人民的一些安全部分必須要第一時間把訊息正確的出來這樣才能夠堵住這些"},{"start":366.825,"end":386.058,"text":"謠言的一個轉達這樣才能確保整個大家對執政的信心對台灣的信心不然不斷的有很多這些訊息都會造成人民對執政的一個信心的一個影響好不好請部長未來這些事情要再更快一點再要請教一下 前鎮漁港的部分也謝謝農業部漁業署的大力支持"},{"start":386.718,"end":411.408,"text":"那現在在11月8號能夠取得使用執照多功能水產 運銷中心但是我之前也講過很多次它的招商是一件辛苦的事情還是要請部長要大力的來協助來推動招商的工作特別是要去找到好的廠商因為廠商一定會給你很多的意見那我希望那些條件讓好的廠商能夠進來好的廠商進來之後才能夠達到好的一些效益部長 這個是不是請你再說明一下"},{"start":413.509,"end":433.003,"text":"這個事情我也了解他們從開始自己要招租的方式已經流標了然後現在OT的方式也流標了兩次我覺得要改變另外一個方式我要成立一個專案小組可以導入一些對這個招商有經驗的這些專家進來一起討論啊而不是純粹用行政程序有沒有"},{"start":435.985,"end":463.479,"text":"更改那個標案的內容然後去招標我非常認同這個啦齁你要用企業界的角度跟精神他為什麼願意進來來投資來投標那他遇到的阻力跟他遇到的擔憂的問題什麼那引他們的意見進來參考之後然後我們來提出一個更好的方案出來這樣才能夠讓這樣一個與市場的一個招商能夠達到一個很好的效益不然純正從行政程序齁再放個十次也不會有人來啦所以我覺得要成立一個專案小組齁"},{"start":464.884,"end":490.634,"text":"邀請外面有經驗的 這個請部長可能要用民間企業的思考的精神去帶動好不好 然後來思考我會請約署這邊來處理那務必要把好的優秀廠商找進來那另外還有一個就是說他的交通也是一個問題我還是希望部長能夠持續的支持捷運的黃線延伸進到前鎮雲港如果你能夠延伸進來的話那未來的部分就會有人願意做更長遠的投資"},{"start":491.294,"end":517.763,"text":"他看得到未來的效益前初期還沒新建完成的時候當然捷運進不來現在用接駁的方式對 初期用接駁但是長遠的說捷運如果能夠一線進來的話那對於投資的廠商來說他長遠看得到效益他就會更勇於敢投資我希望這部分跟部長跟交通部那邊能夠再做溝通好不好來支持捷運黃線延伸進到前鎮雲港好不好部長支持啦對 我一定支持啦好 謝謝部長謝謝賴瑞榮委員資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":913,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時52分）謝謝召委，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，先請教一下，現在臺美的關稅還在談判嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在大家當然也會擔心對於我們農業的一些影響，請教稻米的部分會不會受影響？目前在談判中。"],["陳部長駿季：因為現在在談判中，所以很多細節不便在這邊說明，而且怕還有不確定性，因為美國現在的處理方式，我想你看媒體都知道，但是農業部本身一定是在堅守我們的糧食安全、產業永續穩定以及確保農民收益這三個原則，稻米是糧食安全非常重要的一環，所以以我們的立場，我們應該會盡力來守住這一塊。"],["賴委員瑞隆：要盡力守住稻米這一塊。","另外雞肉的部分，其實現在美國進來雞肉的量也不少，如果降下來的話，也有可能會讓我們的自給率降到五成，甚至更低。"],["陳部長駿季：雞肉的部分，基本上現在美國進來的，百分之百都是美國進來的，大概36%左右。雞肉本身有它特定的品規會到不同的通路市場，以我們國內食用雞肉的數量跟稻米差不多了，大概四十幾公斤左右，所以相對的我們也是把它認定是在糧食安全產業很重要的一環，我們會持續的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以雞肉這一塊也會努力來爭取，努力來守住啦，好，謝謝。","至於豬肉跟牛肉的部分，特別是在一些非關稅的貿易障礙，像標示的部分，這個大概美國很在意啦，這個我們會……"],["陳部長駿季：是，標示的部分是在於衛福部，我們是負責國內的產業，我剛才說了，任何的品項我們會分三類，我是覺得零關稅並不可怕，如果零關稅對我們產業有幫助，對我們的成本降低有幫助，那這個部分是一個區塊。另外一個區塊，其實國內的產業本身就相當穩定，國外進口的部分，進來以後可能是不同的進口國之間的替代，相對的也比較好處理。另外一個區塊，不可否認的一定有一些產業可能會受到一些影響，但是這些影響我們都有做評估，相關的可能支持的措施也會出來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果雞肉跟牛肉產生了衝擊的時候，我們會給予協助啦。"],["陳部長駿季：現在的談判還有非常高的不確定性，等所有的關稅真正的完全確認了以後，我們相關的這些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就整個全部談完了之後哪些受到影響，我們就用政府的資源給予協助，讓他渡過這一波難關。"],["陳部長駿季：也跟委員報告，其實我們所有的品項，我們都已經……因為現在很多不確定性，所以對每個品項產業的動態，產業可能受到的衝擊，我們對每個品項都有做分析齁，有些分析是可能不需要的，有一些可能是需要的，我們會再來調整。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，就剛剛部長所講那幾個原則，我們也期待農業部會確保農民的權益，當然也給予更多的支持跟照顧。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。","再來我請教一下，烏山頭水庫這件事情其實被攻擊得很厲害，早上也有其他委員關照，這個是清水嘛，對不對？就是用清水來清洗，沒有任何的清潔劑，這部分是事實嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就相關的合約規定，整個光電板一定要用清水洗，我們在烏山頭水庫裡面的確有檢測到一些非常微量的陰離子界面活性劑。外界有在質疑這些微量的陰離子界面活性劑是由清潔劑造成的，我只是舉一個例子，如果要造成微量的0.07這樣子的量，其實0.03就要大概12噸，12噸的清潔劑才有可能造成這樣的情況。"],["賴委員瑞隆：等於是有點惡意傾倒才會有的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，才有可能哦。"],["賴委員瑞隆：目前有沒有任何證據有這樣的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：其實在自然界包括動植物屍體腐敗的一些有機分解過程中也會產生，所以我們認為它是一個背景值，最重要就是它遠低於我們的灌溉水質的標準，灌溉水質標準是5毫克，它只有0.03毫克，也遠低於我們的食用標準，食用標準是0.5毫克，所以我相信要請民眾安心，至於後續我們會更精進的把關，就是未來會讓民眾消除疑慮，就是要進行任何清洗的時候，我們會做裝備檢查，就是不准他們帶不該帶的這些東西來以確保。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以是用清水清洗？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：絕對不可以用清潔劑，而這樣的量看起來它也是一個背景值啦，不管它是藻類或者是代謝物，或者是動植物的有機分解，它就是一個背景值，而且它遠低於我們的安全標準。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我覺得要用科學的問題來面對這些問題，如果不斷的用一些訊息去影響的話，很容易造成人心惶惶，我覺得這樣事實的狀態還是要麻煩衛福部，這個未來只會越來越多啦，類似造謠、造假、抹黑的事情會越來越多，我希望未來農業部在第一時間處理，這次幾乎等到了一段時間才出來，我希望未來能夠在一天或是最晚兩天內一定要馬上出來。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：第一時間止住這樣惡意的訊息，才能讓大家感覺到政府很清楚的掌握狀況，而且在確保大家的安全。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們也會在第一時間發這個，但是我也期待我們大家彼此一起努力，不要用誤導的方式讓民眾覺得這個有毒。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，我們都期待，但是有時候很難啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為要故意去攻擊你、傷害你、造謠你的人其實就是會出現，我們能做就是我們必須要站在捍衛第一線，因為我們要確保所有的農民，確保所有人民的安全，必須要在第一時間把訊息正確的出來，這樣才能夠堵住這些謠言的轉達，才能確保大家對執政的信心，對臺灣的信心啦。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不然不斷的有很多這些訊息都會造成人民對執政信心的影響，好不好？請部長未來對這些事情要再更快一點，要再更快一點。"],["陳部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再請教前鎮漁港的部分，也謝謝前農業部漁業署的大力支持，能夠在11月8日取得使用執照，多虧了水產運銷中心，但是我之前講過很多次，它的招商是一件辛苦的事情。"],["陳部長駿季：比較困擾的地方。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，還是要請部長要大力的來協助，來推動招商的工作，特別是要去找到好的廠商，因為廠商一定會給你很多的意見，我希望那些條件讓好的廠商進來，好的廠商進來之後才能夠達到好的效益，這部分是不是請部長再說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：這個事情我也了解，他們從開始自己招租的方式已經流標了，然後現在OT的方式也流標了兩次，我覺得要改變進行另外一個方式，我要成立一個專案小組，可以導入一些對招商有經驗的專家進來一起討論，而不是純粹用行政程序更改標案的內容然後去招標。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我非常認同這個。你要用企業界的角度和精神。它為什麼願意進來投資、來投標，還有它遇到的阻力和擔憂會是什麼？引他們的意見進來參考之後，然後我們來提出一個更好的方案出來……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這樣才有機會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這樣才能夠讓魚市場的招商達到一個很好的效果。"],["陳部長駿季：對，不然純粹從行政程序，再放個10次也不會有人來啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我覺得要成立一個專案小組，邀集外面有經驗的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個請部長可能要用民間企業思考的精神去帶動，然後來思考，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，用那種方式，我們會來處理。我會請漁業署這邊來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：務必要把好的優秀廠商找進來。另外還有一個，就是它的交通也是一個問題。我還是希望部長能夠持續支持捷運的黃線延伸進到前鎮漁港，如果你能夠延伸進來的話，那未來的部分就會有人願意做更長遠的投資，他看得到未來的效益。前初期還沒興建完成的時候，當然捷運進不來，但是未來……"],["陳部長駿季：現在用接駁的方式。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，初期用接駁，但是長遠地說，捷運如果能夠一線進來的話，那對於投資的廠商來說，他長遠看得到效益，他就會更勇於敢投資。我希望這部分部長跟交通部那邊能夠再做溝通，來支持捷運黃線延伸進到前鎮漁港，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們再來跟交通部看看怎麼樣處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長支持嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我一定支持啊！"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員質詢，謝謝部長。","接下來我們請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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砍到308欸你又搶回去三分之二的錢欸"},{"start":204.778,"end":228.54,"text":"而且這個錢你摸著良心的主席可以講你回答問題之前這些錢都是非常重要的我給大家看一下有什麼地方的捷運營養午餐對不對台南市的這個捷運南線你明年度本來要給他多少錢對不對你現在剩下砍到剩1.6"},{"start":230.506,"end":252.002,"text":"他怎麼做啊這整個影響了整個人民的這個權益啊我看你剛才回答立委說不是不給晚一點給都已經蓋了第二個你時間往後拖這是多嚴重事情我們再看一個我去做了一個統計拜託先給電話這個一看這是被砍掉的是什麼"},{"start":256.328,"end":273.618,"text":"教育經費被砍了659億包括什麼基本的教育人事費還有辦公費營養午餐 水電費 冷氣本來要退伏支出的限職的待遇659億都負責還牽扯到"},{"start":277.057,"end":293.264,"text":"水利的輸進跟清淤你這個怎麼砍得下去經濟部河川的輸進少了10億內政部地下下水道的輸進跟清淤少14億這是不是都很重要"},{"start":295.865,"end":322.227,"text":"是不是都很重要這個是很重要但是問題這個是譬如說國中小的一個營養午餐水電會還有地方的一個水利輸進這些相關的會用這都是屬於地方應辦的事項只是中央著於補助所以這個部分我們就是說有因為我們實在是預算編不出來沒有辦法編所以才會把它有些事項回歸地方"},{"start":324.417,"end":351.43,"text":"主席長第一個你還是歷史以來最高的錢最多中華民國最有錢的就是今年的114年的中華民國明年115年更有錢了超過三兆欸你怎麼可以坐在金山上面一直喊窮而且第二個你剛講的都從地方搶的欸你都認為他重要結果你現在不你把他拿到中央來地方沒有錢要不要坐我最後做一個結論因為主席站出來了我看看欸我給你看一個很重要的文件"},{"start":352.692,"end":370.324,"text":"這個是在8月28號黨團協商的時候那一天連柯建銘 吳思瑤 陳培宜都簽字喔 主席你們民進黨也簽字喔那時候我們就注意到了你們把一般補助款要變成申請這兩個很大問題嘛一般性的補助款很多都法定預算對不對"},{"start":376.57,"end":401.06,"text":"你怎麼可以要去申請呢這是第一個問題第二個他本來錢被你排擠了嘛所以當初你看我們當初就說賴清德當台南市長的時候就說中央不應該急錢又急錢行政院你不應該去扣錢去解釋對於地方的補助款額度你不能夠調整各個縣市的這個金額的同時把明年的一般補助款變成是審查"},{"start":403.848,"end":404.449,"text":"三黨的黨編 我們三黨去協商這個都有牽涉的"},{"start":408.436,"end":437.706,"text":"你怎麼現在推翻我 你不是自打嘴巴嗎這個是總統通過追加預算案的時候的主決議喔這有法律效用喔 你這是違法耶這人家可以告你賭職耶所以你現在有幾個大的問題你對地方的影響那麼大對營養午餐影響那麼大對捷運影響那麼大教育影響那麼大所以最後我做個結論啦你是依法行政我做兩個拜託的事情第一個 回去好好再看看不要再這樣砍地方的補助環了"},{"start":439.363,"end":456.398,"text":"你砍太多了 計劃型砍太多了第二個 不要把一般補助款還要再申請這兩個都是要處理的對 這個部分我們都有改了有改了 就是申請字的部分大部分都改成填報字所以這個部分就會那你就違反了這個當初我們這個規定啦"},{"start":456.758,"end":470.496,"text":"沒有規範規定 因為為什麼因為一般性補助和計畫性補助都是對地方政府硬辦事項的著語補助啦並不是說一定的補助所以我們要衡量財政的意念來做補助請抱歉抱歉 比較簡單第一個 朱鑑定 拜託"},{"start":474.921,"end":480.147,"text":"你把計劃型補助款2900多億砍到308這是非常明確的這傷害太大了你要回去檢討不能夠這樣砍這是第一第一你一般型的補助款本來以前是不用審的你現在變成要審我們當初就跟你講了這是總統公告喔你不要違法你這樣下去會變成賭職好不好請你今天再拜託一下你要盯好好不好這是財政紀律而且要依法行政拜託一下謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1007,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時49分）謝謝主席，請主計長和審計長。"],["主席：我們請陳審計長、陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：學長好。財劃法修正本來是要落實地方自治的，可是現在行政院一路都在造謠，說錢被地方分光光。我給大家看一個餅圖，我去做了統計，其實民國88年精省的時候，我們中央政府的收入淨額只有60%。審計長在點頭了，結果你看財劃法修正完之後，我幫他做了一個統計，還有高達65.6%，表示現在中央政府還是有錢的，不要講說地方分太多錢，中央還是富豪。","第二個，更嚴重的，接下來我要跟主計長和審計長討論一個非常嚴重的事情。我覺得主計長和行政院最近做了太多違法的事情，主計跟審計應該是很受到人家尊重的，特別是主計一定要依法去編列預算。剛剛講軍人加薪不編，警消退休金的年金提高也不編，這已經是違法了，所以我們今天會力主把明年度中央政府總預算要退回，這是一個。其次我們來看，還動了一個大家沒有注意到，可是對我們地方的教育跟基礎建設，連捷運都受到影響的，很大的地方，可能很多人到現在都不曉得。主計總處、行政院，竟然把我們的計畫型補助款，明年度我們的計畫型補助款本來應該有2,954億，大家看那個餅圖，那是中央應該給地方的計畫型補助款，砍到只剩下308億。第一個這個額度太大了，第二個，那很多建設對地方都非常非常的重要，包括到我們小孩子的營養午餐。","主計長，財劃法通過的時候，我算給大家聽，本來明年度因為財劃法通過之後，中央這個富豪，中央集權又集錢，要下放給地方、要照顧地方的4,165億，結果竟然你們可以去動一個辦法，暗渡陳倉，你是土匪是不是？像土匪一樣搶回了將近三分之二，搶回去2,954億裡面的2,646億。主計長，這樣財劃法就不用修了，我們修完，中央要下放四千一百多億下去，結果你自己弄一個辦法，把計畫型補助款砍到剩308億，你又搶回去三分之二的錢。而且這個錢，主計長，你回答問題之前，你摸著良心，這些錢都是非常重要的，我給大家看一下有什麼，有地方的捷運、營養午餐，對不對？臺南市的捷運藍線，你明年度本來要給他多少錢，60億對不對？你現在砍到剩1.6億，他怎麼做啊？這影響了整個人民的權益啊！我看你剛才回答立委說不是不給，晚一點給。都已經蓋了，第二個你時間往後拖，這是多嚴重的事情。","我們再看一個，我去做了一個統計，拜託審計長也一起看，這被砍掉的是什麼？教育經費被砍了659億，包括什麼？基本的教育人事費，還有辦公費、營養午餐、水電費、冷氣，連本來要退撫支出的、現職的待遇，659億都砍，還牽扯到水利的疏濬跟清淤。主計長，你這個怎麼砍得下去？經濟部河川的疏濬少了10億，內政部地下下水道的疏濬跟清淤少14億。主計長，這些是不是都很重要？是不是都很重要？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個是很重要，但是問題是，譬如說國中小的營養午餐、水電費，還有地方的水利疏濬，這些相關的費用，這都是屬於地方應辦的事項，只是中央酌予補助。所以這個部分，我們就是因為實在是預算編不出來，沒有辦法編，才會把它有些事項回歸地方。"],["張委員啓楷：我一開始給你看你的錢，主計長，第一個你還是歷史以來最高的，中華民國最有錢的就是今年（114年）的中華民國，明年（115年）更有錢了，超過三兆耶！你怎麼可以坐在金山上面一直喊窮，而且第二個，你剛講的都從地方搶的，你都認為它重要，結果你現在把錢拿到中央來，地方沒有錢，那要不要做？","我最後做一個結論，因為主席站起來了，我給你看一個很重要的文件，這個是在8月28號黨團協商的時候，那一天連柯建銘、吳思瑤、陳培瑜都簽字喔。主席，你們民進黨都簽字喔。那時候我們就注意到了，你們把一般補助款要變成申請，這兩個很大問題嘛，一般性的補助款，審計長，很多都法定預算對不對？你怎麼可以要去申請呢？這是第一個問題。","第二個它本來錢被你排擠了嘛！所以你看，我們當初就說賴清德當臺南市長的時候，就說中央不應該集權又集錢，行政院你不應該去擴權解釋，對於地方的補助款額度，你不能夠調整各個縣市的這個金額的同時，把明年的一般補助款變成是審查。三黨的黨鞭喔！我們三黨去協商，這個都有簽字的喔，你怎麼現在推翻我們，你不是自打嘴巴嗎？這個是我們通過追加預算案的時候的主決議，這個有法律效用喔，你這樣是違法耶，這個人家可以告你瀆職耶。","你現在有幾個大的問題，你對地方的影響那麼大，對營養午餐影響那麼大，對捷運影響那麼大，對教育影響那麼大，所以最後我做個結論啦！你是依法行政，我做兩個拜託的事情，第一個，回去好好再看看，不要再這樣砍地方的補助款了，你砍太多了，計畫型砍太多了。第二個不要把一般補助款還要再申請，這兩個都是要處理的。第二個，今天審計長……"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分我們都有改了，就是申請制的部分大部分都改成填報制，所以這個部分就會減弱……"],["張委員啓楷：那你就違反了當初我們這個規定啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有違反規定，因為一般性補助和計畫型補助都是對地方政府應辦事項的酌予補助啦！並不是說一定的補助……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，現在非常……"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們要衡量財政的情形來補助……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，主計長，因為後面還有人啦！主席，抱歉。"],["主席：張委員，對，趕快做個結論。"],["張委員啓楷：主計長，第一個，你把計畫型補助款兩千九百多億砍到308億，這是非常明確的，這傷害太大了，你要回去檢討，不能夠這樣砍，這是第一個。第二，你一般型的補助款本來以前是不用審的，你現在變成要審，我們當初就跟你講了，這是總統公告喔，你不要違法，你這樣下去會變成瀆職，好不好？審計長今天在場，要拜託一下，你要盯好，好不好？這是財政紀律，而且要依法行政，拜託一下，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝我們張啓楷委員。","接下來我們請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在場。","下一位我們請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},{"id":"164181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db67ba028d3db8c0291db0c57f74454ce7b92e8362d61d61ef2e8ce97be1a103f415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:43:15 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告訴我"},{"start":212.772,"end":234.803,"text":"那個紀律委員會是獨立行使職權我是行政幕僚我知道你不會講啦我知道你不曉得不曉得拭目以待好不好可不可以來 想請問喔如果地方政府放任土地環境被違法開發破壞清道廢棄物該不該開罰該不該處理監察院該不該調查"},{"start":239.174,"end":266.933,"text":"其實監察院是事後權那跟行政權裡面還是有權力分立的適用所以呢如果有事件發生應該是行政權優先處理不是廢話嗎我就問你啦盧甲學渣案算不算是事後權啊學甲盧渣案對啊我要問你就是這些已經發生的事情啊"},{"start":267.864,"end":288.434,"text":"要不要調查有調查案來來來有調查我當然知道啊好來我們監察院社會福利及衛生環境等委員會在今年8月20號有召開聯席會議嘛對不對是針對台南雪茄的爐渣案還有一些重要的一些議題來進行討論嘛對不對來你知道根據會議記錄什麼時候開會什麼時候散會"},{"start":298.539,"end":313.022,"text":"來啦 我告訴你啦對啊喔 非常長 我就忍這句話來來來來 我告訴你 我跟你講我這邊很簡單 你們會議紀錄在這邊8月20號下午3點42分開會嘛 對不對你知道什麼時候結束嗎你們會議紀錄寫的喔 散會是什麼時候"},{"start":326.425,"end":339.112,"text":"散會3點42分好厲害啊真的好厲害啊3點42分開會3點42分散會文化部補助0日攻擊你們是什麼0秒開會啊"},{"start":344.066,"end":363.912,"text":"因為常設委員會在開會的時候是會開他的本會跟各聯席會議那那個會議記錄的話就會一段你覺得你講這些大家聽得懂來來來我講下一個問題你知道那天不只開這個會吧8月20號當天下午3點37分到42分5分鐘開了幾場聯席會開了幾場告訴我"},{"start":371.15,"end":393.209,"text":"開了七場聯席會好有效率啊 監察院真的太厲害了有兩個聯席會3點38分開會3點38分散會又是一個所謂的零分開會你知道在立法院開聯席會要開多久啊常常開一整天耶還要挑釁業戰耶"},{"start":397.276,"end":425.054,"text":"我讓你答不出來啦你剛剛已經認了五秒鐘答不出來啦不是因為我手中沒有相關的資料欸欸欸你們連這個都不知道來五分鐘開七場一分鐘開兩場你跟我講開什麼會啊過場而已啊來這七場我直接告訴你包含哪些議題看我有沒有說錯包括性騷擾台南雪甲爐災案外籍漁工人權家暴長照健康食品安全環境保護"},{"start":427.321,"end":452.841,"text":"五分鐘講得完啊因為呢 剛剛委員講的那個議題不是在審調查報告 而是在審後面的你剛才跟我講 你們聯席會開很久欸你現在要改口了嗎後面的審查意見那審查意見前面已經經過調查委員我跟你講 副秘書長你到現在為止 你在兜圈圈你在兜圈圈 我不為難你啦你是行政幕僚 不為難你啦"},{"start":454.793,"end":464.202,"text":"最諷刺的是 你知道監察院你剛送進來115年預算議事行政上引印機租金印刷費用編多少錢354萬還有一筆是有線電視收視費開會餘時誤參費多少錢134.9萬"},{"start":481.745,"end":509.628,"text":"監委你認真工作有些費用是可以編列但是我要跟你講光光你那聯席會五分鐘開七場印大量的會議資料我直接跟你講對不起那會議資料根本沒有用心討論就是敷衍連買A4紙跟碳水匣給你們都是浪費五分鐘開七場會議的單位你有臉去編百萬元的務參費"},{"start":511.756,"end":531.203,"text":"還要編列預算給監察委員看有線電視照你們這種開會的速度我真覺得你們到底有沒有時間誤餐這些不合理的項目我直接跟你預告進到審查的時候我們就嚴格審查要刪就刪再來我要請教115年編了900萬元的沒宣費對不對沒錯吧"},{"start":541.087,"end":560.032,"text":"在平和指標上你們自己設定人權獎項要達10萬次人權研討會也是10萬次人權教育推廣徵建活動要達30萬人次然後人權專題宣導達35萬人次人權影像紀錄要達45萬以上觀看也就是說總共要達130萬次觀看嘛對不對我跟你講"},{"start":565.779,"end":588.504,"text":"我自己的那個社群平台有時候一支影片30秒鐘成本零也可以破百萬但沒有關係你要編900萬去達130萬次觀看可以啦可以啦那麼來看看你到底做得你做不做得到來請問你知道監察院自己有那個youtube頻道吧你知道你們訂閱數多少我告訴你啦"},{"start":595.854,"end":624.404,"text":"非常棒的數字啊402人你有沒有訂閱數402然後你跟我講說你要130萬觀看你的訂閱數402也監察搞這麼久連1000都沒破他給你錢是幹嘛丟海裡嗎來我想請教目前監察院上架了多少影片目前監察院上架了多少影片"},{"start":628.154,"end":644.043,"text":"150支你知道最高大概點閱率多少嗎我知道你也不知道啦最高的不到1萬大概7400150支平均觀看352次加起來5.3萬我跟複密書上講你們要那900萬沒懸廢我直接講一點立場都沒有"},{"start":656.018,"end":667.872,"text":"以你們這種所謂的宣傳績效一點立場都沒有所以我這邊直接跟你講這900萬在我看來叫浪費公帑這些錢也會延伸以上 謝謝好 謝謝羅志強委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時43分）主席，有請王副秘書長。"],["主席：請副秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：請教副秘書長，幾個月前李俊俋前秘書長因為濫用公務車送狗去美容，他因此辭職了，對不對？但是監察院當時爆出濫用公務車的，其實也不只李俊俋一個人，包括林郁容、王榮璋、蘇麗瓊，同樣都有這方面的爭議，當時李鴻鈞副院長說要把這些監委送紀律委員會，我想請問目前進度如何？針對李俊俋還有這些監委，有進行進一步的調查嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員報告，在6月6日的時候，相關的案件就進了紀律委員會，其實紀律委員會在7月份就開過兩次會議，因為有任期，所以到7月31日任期到，不過前面一次的紀律……"],["羅委員智強：4個月了，沒錯吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：前面的紀律委員會已經有派兩位紀律委員去蒐集資料，然後到8月1日以後，8月1日是7個新的紀律委員，然後他們……"],["羅委員智強：副秘書長，你講了一大堆，什麼任期到啊！什麼新的紀律委員啊！都無法解釋一件事情，這麼簡單的事情，4個月放在那邊擺爛。","來，我想請教一下，你們監察院的年度施政目標就包括針對行政機關違失立案調查，提出糾正案，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["羅委員智強：然後追究相關責任，促其澈底注意改善，結果你們監察院自己的違法濫權，「無要無緊」啊！一晃眼拖個4個月過去，跟我講什麼因為任期屆滿，因為新的上來，你覺得我們臺灣人民聽得懂嗎？聽得進去嗎？遇到你們自己都拖拖拖、慢慢慢，是這樣子嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，這個任期事實是這樣子。另外，有關……"],["羅委員智強：事實是什麼？事實就是你們對自己的部分就是搞拖延啦！"],["王代理秘書長增華：那委員有……"],["羅委員智強：監察百官的機關變成最該被監察的對象，叫人民怎麼去信任監察院？那我就直接問你啊！副秘書長，我知道你大概也答不出來啦！請問到底什麼時候給我們結果？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我就是……"],["羅委員智強：你現在有一個新的紀律委員會出來啦！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["羅委員智強：那你告訴我啊！這個紀律委員會的任期多久？"],["王代理秘書長增華：一年。"],["羅委員智強：一年，一年後再跟我講說抱歉啦！這個紀律委員會又任期屆滿，又要新的紀律委員會，無限紀律下去嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，新的紀律委員會他們已經開過，有兩次的約詢，兩次的調卷，而且兩次提出相關說明。"],["羅委員智強：拜託啦！速度快一點。"],["王代理秘書長增華：10月份，其實報告的初稿已經出來了。"],["羅委員智強：初稿出來了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對。"],["羅委員智強：那告訴我結論是什麼。統統沒事，作為官員的典範，不用有任何的結果，不用負擔任何代價，是這個結果嗎？告訴我。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，紀律委員會是獨立行使職權，我是行政幕僚，我不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：我知道，你不會講啦！我知道你不會講。"],["王代理秘書長增華：我不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：你不曉得。"],["王代理秘書長增華：我真的不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：拭目以待，好不好？可不可以？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["羅委員智強：然後想請問，如果地方政府放任土地、環境被違法開發破壞，傾倒廢棄物，該不該開罰？該不該處理？監察院該不該調查？"],["王代理秘書長增華：其實監察院是事後權，跟行政權還是有權力分立的適用，所以如果有事件發生，應該是行政權優先處理。"],["羅委員智強：你不是廢話嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，然後……"],["羅委員智強：我就問你啦！學甲爐碴案，算不算是事後權？"],["王代理秘書長增華：學甲爐碴案嗎？"],["羅委員智強：學甲爐碴案。"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們有調查。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！我要問你的就是這些已經發生的事情，要不要調查？"],["王代理秘書長增華：有調查案，而且有糾正。"],["羅委員智強：來來來，有調查我當然知道啊！來，我們監察院社會福利及衛生環境等委員會，在今年8月20日有召開聯席會議，對不對？是針對臺南學甲的爐碴案，還有一些重要的議題來進行討論，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["羅委員智強：你知道根據會議紀錄，什麼時候開會？什麼時候散會？來啦！我告訴你啦！"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，那個是聯席會嗎？"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["王代理秘書長增華：其實他們開會的時間是非常長的。"],["羅委員智強：喔！非常長，我就要你這句話。"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為先開聯席會……"],["羅委員智強：來，我告訴你，我這邊很簡單，你們會議紀錄在這邊，8月20日下午3點42分開會，對不對？你知道什麼時候結束嗎？你們會議紀錄寫的喔！散會是什麼時候？"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，因為有……"],["羅委員智強：散會3點42分，好厲害啊！真的好厲害啊！3點42分開會，3點42分散會，文化部補助「零日攻擊」，你們是什麼？零秒開會啊？"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為常設委員會在開會的時候是會開它的本會跟各聯席會議，所以那個會議紀錄就會一段、一段。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得你講這些大家聽得懂？來！我講下一個問題，你知道那一天不只開這個會吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對。"],["羅委員智強：8月20日當天下午3點37分到42分，5分鐘開了幾場聯席會？開了幾場你告訴我。"],["王代理秘書長增華：我手中沒有資料。"],["羅委員智強：開了7場聯席會，好有效率啊！監察院真的太厲害了！有兩個聯席會，3點38分開會，3點38分散會，又是一個所謂的零分開會。你知道在立法院開聯席會要開多久？常常開一整天耶！還要挑燈夜戰耶！"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，因為我手中沒有資料。"],["羅委員智強：我知道你答不出來啦！你剛剛在那邊已經愣了5秒鐘，答不出來啦！"],["王代理秘書長增華：不是，因為我手中沒有相關的資料，不過就是……"],["羅委員智強：你們連這個都不知道，來！5分鐘開7場，1分鐘開2場，你跟我講開什麼會啊？過場而已啦！這7場我直接告訴你包含哪些議題，看我有沒有說錯，包括性騷擾、臺南學甲爐碴案、外籍漁工人權、家暴、長照健康、食品安全、環境保護，5分鐘講得完啊！"],["王代理秘書長增華：剛剛委員講的那個議題不是在審調查報告，而是在審後面的……"],["羅委員智強：你剛才還跟我講你們聯席會開很久耶！你現在要改口了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：那是後面的審查意見，那審查意見前面已經經過調查委員，還有經過召集人的……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，副秘書長，你到現在為止，你在兜圈圈！"],["王代理秘書長增華：我是在說明……"],["羅委員智強：你在兜圈圈。"],["王代理秘書長增華：沒有、沒有，委員，我是說明實情。"],["羅委員智強：我不為難你啦！你是行政幕僚，我不為難你啦！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["羅委員智強：最諷刺的是，你知道監察院剛送進來115年預算，議事行政上，影印機租金、印刷費用編多少錢？354萬。還有一筆是有線電視收視費及開會逾時誤餐費，多少錢？134.9萬。監委你認真工作，有些費用是可以編列，但是我要跟你講，光你那個聯席會5分鐘開7場，印大量的會議資料，我直接跟你講，你對不起那些會議資料！根本沒有用心討論，就是敷衍！連買A4紙跟碳粉匣給你們都是浪費，5分鐘開7場會議的單位，你有臉去編百萬元的誤餐費，還要編列預算給監察委員看有線電視，照你們這種開會的速度，我都覺得你們到底有沒有時間誤餐啊？這些不合理的項目，我直接跟你預告啦！進入到審查的時候，我們會嚴格審查，要刪就刪。","再來，我要請教，115年編了900萬元的媒宣費，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["羅委員智強：在評核指標上，你們自己設定人權獎項要達10萬次，人權研討會也是10萬次，人權教育推廣徵件活動要達30萬人次，然後人權專題宣導達35萬人次，人權影像紀錄要達45萬以上觀看，也就是說總共要達130萬次觀看，對不對？我跟你講，我自己的社群平臺有時候一支影片30秒鐘，成本零也可以破百萬，但沒有關係，你要編900萬去達130萬次觀看，可以啦！那我們來看看你到底做不做得到。來，請問你知道監察院自己有YouTube頻道吧？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["羅委員智強：你知道你們訂閱數多少？我告訴你啦！非常棒的數字啊！402人，你們訂閱數402，然後你跟我講說你要130萬觀看，你訂閱數402，你今天還搞這麼久，連1,000都沒破，給你錢是幹嘛？丟海裡嗎？來，我想請教，目前監察院上架了多少影片？"],["王代理秘書長增華：那個訂閱數是有關於人權委員會的，不是監察院。"],["羅委員智強：目前監察院上架了多少影片？150支。你知道最高大概點閱率多少嗎？我知道你也不知道啦！最高的不到1萬，大概7,400，150支平均觀看352次，加起來5.3萬，我跟副秘書長講，你們要那900萬媒宣費，我直接講，一點立場都沒有啦！以你們這種所謂的宣傳績效，一點立場都沒有，所以我這邊也直接跟你講，這900萬在我看來叫浪費公帑，這些錢也會嚴審、嚴刪，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。","所有的委員發言都已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","議程所列的事項都已經處理完畢，本次會議進行到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（11時54分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","吳宗憲","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","羅智強"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00006"}}},{"id":"164179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db61a2a31cad6f6a7541d8817d393176c4392e8362d61d61ef274d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:42:54 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畜牧師畜牧師在管是不是但是野生的又不是畜牧師在管可是你說梅花鹿不是野生啊不是野生動物那它算什麼"},{"start":69.261,"end":84.79,"text":"它是一個經過繁殖野放的東西因為這牽涉到法規的問題那野保法裡面它定義的它是不經過繁殖是自然領域的但是梅花鹿是經過早期的飼養以後在野放的部分"},{"start":85.831,"end":109.083,"text":"就是現在是肯定國家公園在覆診可是問題是動物牠會跑梅花鹿牠不一定只在國家公園裡牠會跑出來你知道嗎而且現在台灣有很多的很多的那個生態園區他們就特別強調梅花鹿喔所以梅花鹿牠現在算不算是一個表演的一個動物那到底哪個單位該管"},{"start":110.723,"end":133.894,"text":"畜牧師在管嗎如果是展演動物的話是動保師動保師在管那現在台灣的梅花鹿這邊到底是要怎麼樣去做管理我們有沒有去做一個比較好的一個運作因為你說它已經不是野生動物很具體喔這是部長你這邊很具體講說梅花鹿不是野生動物了不是野保法定義的野生動物"},{"start":135.06,"end":147.737,"text":"好 那它算不算是那我們動保法要怎麼去保護它或野保法這邊要怎麼保護它你這邊有沒有一個更具體的說法因為目前來說台灣的梅花路就是沒有人管你知道嗎"},{"start":149.199,"end":175.476,"text":"現在都把它推到了國家公園懇管處去懇管處這邊有一個相關的一個梅花路如果去吃了農損之後的一個補助的辦法除了這個之外的時候我們沒有看到農業部對於我們這樣子的一個不管是野保的主管單位或者是一個家畜的一個主管單位的時候對於梅花路有一個更具體的一個管理的方式"},{"start":176.016,"end":201.798,"text":"感覺就是準備讓他放生那梅花路如果跑出來了他跑出了國家公園的範圍的時候那誰要去負責我跟委員報告以現在的現在的作為就是那個國家公園管理處這邊會來負責就算他跑出來侵犯他的農民的話他們也會來負責可是我覺得就正如委員講的我覺得農業部在這裡應該扮演一個角色而不是說"},{"start":202.538,"end":222.715,"text":"怎麼樣的角色對 它不是因為以現在的法規它真的不是野生動物然後也不再加序因為它是野放的也不在飼養的範圍之內所以以現在的法規在不明確之下但是我願意再做一些更積極的協調農業部應該在這裡應該有一個角色啦是可以不要說"},{"start":223.596,"end":253.193,"text":"又不去處理了以後數量越來越多然後又造成一些可能5年10年後有另外一個困擾這個部分我想我會再召集相關的會議看看農業部用什麼方式來切入是比較適當的OK部長這邊講得很清楚因為梅花鹿它曾經絕跡過1960年絕跡的時候可是後來確實在1984年開始的時候復育然後90年開始也放所以現在梅花鹿台灣梅花鹿大概有多少你知道嗎目前多少"},{"start":255.219,"end":276.166,"text":"有幾隻你知道嗎我現在沒有掌握這個資訊目前按照媒體報導的時候大概目前大概有3600隻那有很多你剛剛講說他自己離開了國家公園的範圍的時候國家公園還要去管我不曉得國家公園要怎麼去管所以你剛剛有承諾說農業部這邊會扮演好一個角色很具體請"},{"start":279.062,"end":306.6,"text":"最快的速度給梅花路一個定位好不好那到底是我們是野保這邊去管還是江蘇市這邊在管我們很清楚讓他有一個定位這樣好不好因為以現在法規都不適用所以我們未來可能用一個專案小組的部分在不去動機這個相關的法規之下怎麼樣協助國家公園的管理處能夠將這個議題做一個比較好的"},{"start":309.102,"end":326.139,"text":"什麼時候可以完成出來我們三個月好不好三個月是不是 可以縮短一下嗎不是 因為他有要實際的就這個會期 三個月這個會期我剛才說的我們農業部應該可以扮演一些角色我這個可能要再去跟他們討論一下"},{"start":327.64,"end":356.303,"text":"那我想說這個部分因為同時現在很多梅花鹿它也在生態園區當中如果它是展演動物的時候我們也希望能夠好好的被照顧到好不好因為日本的耐涼鹿其實是一個很好的一個經驗那我相信部長一定很懂這個部分那我想接下來我想問一個跟消費比較有關的狀態因為你在報告當中的時候這邊有特別提到說要加強農產品安全跟溯源管理我這邊來問一個蛋的一個溯源管理的一個部分好不好"},{"start":357.267,"end":377.862,"text":"部長你知道那個我們這溯源碼這邊的時候這兩排字代表的意思嘛對不對那目前確實這個溯源碼我們在網路上面也可以查得到可是如果說有誤標假標的狀態的時候我們目前農業部這邊有沒有什麼更積極的做法我們有定期去查那詳細是不是可以請敘牧師來回應一下"},{"start":379.483,"end":399.785,"text":"報告委員我們每個月都有派同仁跟地方政府去針對這個溯源碼市面去抽查發現有問題的馬上去找業者請他做一些修正那因為部長你知道最近網路上面有一群人他們很積極的在說號召大家不要吃所謂的監獄蛋"},{"start":400.746,"end":427.087,"text":"跟地獄蛋監獄蛋不是說我們監獄很多監獄生產出來的產品是很好的東西那他講的監獄蛋不是產品很好而是希望大家不要去吃為什麼因為他說我們的對是龍式的那針對這樣的部分的時候可是我們知道現在大部分的蛋都是龍式的出來的對不對是大宗那當有一群"},{"start":428.464,"end":439.295,"text":"民間的團體在動員這樣的狀態的時候部長這邊是不是要幫這些龍式的蛋說一些話或者說針對這個部分我們要怎麼給他不要讓龍式的蛋被汙名化"},{"start":440.066,"end":466.514,"text":"不過我想以現在的經濟生產行為龍氏蛋還是為主但是龍氏蛋它也有相關的一個規格跟標準它必須符合動物基本的一個動物福利的部分但是它有一些可能會用比較友善的方式去飼養這個我們都會鼓勵但是不代表就是龍氏蛋就是非常不好所以這個部分我想我們會做比較正確的一個宣導來讓我們的消費者認知到"},{"start":469.226,"end":483.459,"text":"那這個部分本席也希望你針對O代表有機生產的蛋 F代表放牧生產的蛋 B代表平時生產的蛋 E代表豐富化的農事生產也都能夠跟民眾做一個比較好的一個"},{"start":484.239,"end":498.431,"text":"一個宣導讓民眾他真正知道說我們吃的蛋情況是怎麼樣那另外一個部分是之前農業部有曾經講過說除了現在的洗選蛋之外的時候我們也要擴大就是一般的"},{"start":499.272,"end":527.99,"text":"蛋的一個溯源的編碼目前這個計畫進行到怎麼樣的情況我想我們現在在階段性推動的話就是洗選蛋是第一階段因為洗選蛋才有可能去噴印那洗選蛋本身我們希望推動到早餐店早餐店的部分或者餐廳的部分會先去推動那在推動的過程中你的洗選廠也要有那個量能所以我們短期之內我們是針對這個洗選蛋的通路我們會去加強"},{"start":528.697,"end":551.093,"text":"因為目前現在台灣的吸血蛋大概占三成那其他的部分的時候我們要怎麼樣讓它能夠演更好的一個溯源我們第一階段大概是五成就是讓這個早餐店或餐飲店或連鎖通路的部分去使用然後當它使用習慣了以後我們再逐步的去開放到傳統市場是最困難的啦但是相對的我想我們會努力朝這個方向來做"},{"start":551.573,"end":573.752,"text":"OK好那我想說最後部分我想請部長這邊之後我針對新竹的南寮漁港周邊清淤還有海山漁港周邊的一個社區的一個經營回饋的部分說給本席一個另外到辦公室來做一個進一步的一個說明好不好因為主席已經站起來在跟委員辦公室裡面聯絡時間再去跟你說明好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":847,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時42分）謝謝主席，我想請教陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好，首先請教你一下，臺灣的梅花鹿算不算是野生動物？"],["陳部長駿季：應該不算。"],["鄭委員正鈐：梅花鹿不算野生動物是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：不在我們的野保法裡面所定義的野生動物。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那梅花鹿算什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：算動物。"],["鄭委員正鈐：算動物，那牠算怎麼樣動物？農業部這邊怎麼樣管理？"],["陳部長駿季：牠是一般的家畜吧。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在臺灣的農業，梅花鹿算家畜是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：算家畜？所以家畜是哪一個單位在管？是我們畜牧司在管嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，家畜是畜牧司管，但是野生的又不是畜牧司管。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是你說梅花鹿不是野生啊，不是野生動物，那牠算什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：牠是經過繁殖野放的東西，因為這牽涉到法規的問題啦，野保法裡面定義的是不經過繁殖，是自然領域的，但是梅花鹿是經過早期的飼養以後再野放的部分，現在是墾丁國家公園在負責。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是問題是動物會跑，梅花鹿不一定只在國家公園，牠會跑出來，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：而且現在臺灣有很多的生態園區就特別強調梅花鹿喔。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以梅花鹿現在算不算是表演的動物？那到底哪個單位該管？是畜牧司在管嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：如果是展演動物的話，那是動保司。"],["鄭委員正鈐：動保司在管？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。那現在臺灣的梅花鹿到底要怎麼樣去做管理？我們有沒有比較好的運作？因為你說牠已經不是野生動物，部長這邊很具體講梅花鹿不是野生動物了。"],["陳部長駿季：不是野保法定義的野生動物。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那野保法要怎麼保護牠？你有沒有一個更具體的說法？因為目前臺灣的梅花鹿就是沒有人管啊，你知道嗎？現在都把牠推到國家公園墾管處，墾管處有一個相關作法，就是梅花鹿吃了農作物造成農損的一個補助辦法，除了這個之外，我們沒有看到農業部不管是野保的主管單位或者是家畜的主管單位，對梅花鹿有沒有更具體的管理方式？感覺就是準備讓牠放生，梅花鹿如果跑出來了，跑出了國家公園的範圍，誰要去負責？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，以現在的作為就是國家公園管理處會負責，就算牠跑出來侵犯到農民的話，他們也會來負責。可是我覺得就誠如委員講的，我覺得農業部在這裡應該扮演一個角色，而不是說牠不是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是怎麼樣的角色？"],["陳部長駿季：因為以現在的法規，牠真的不是野生動物，也不在家畜部分，因為他野放了也不在飼養的範圍之內，所以以現在法規在不明確之下，但是我願意再做一些更積極的協調，農業部在這裡應該有一個角色啦，不要不去處理以後讓數量越來越多，五年、十年後可能造成另外一個困擾，這個部分我想我會再召集相關的會議，看看農業部用什麼方式來切入是比較適當的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長講得很清楚，因為梅花鹿曾經絕跡過，在1960年絕跡，後來在1984年開始復育，然後97年開始野放，你知道現在臺灣梅花鹿大概有多少嗎？目前多少？有幾隻你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我現在沒有掌握這個資訊。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，按照媒體報導目前大概有3,600隻，你剛剛講如果牠跑出了國家公園的範圍，國家公園還要去管，我不曉得國家公園要怎麼去管，所以你剛剛有承諾農業部會扮演好一個角色，請以最快的速度給梅花鹿一個定位，好不好？到底是野保這邊去管？還是家畜司這邊在管？希望能夠很清楚讓牠有一個定位，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為以現在法規都不適用，所以未來我可能採用一個專案小組的方式，在不去動及相關的法規之下，怎麼樣協助國家公園管理處能夠將這個議題做比較好的處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：大概什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳部長駿季：給我們3個月時間好不好？"],["鄭委員正鈐：3個月，可以縮短一下嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，因為需要有實際的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果3個月，這個會期……"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說我們農業部應該可以扮演一些角色，這個部分我可能要再去跟他們討論一下。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我想這個部分，因為現在很多梅花鹿也在生態園區當中，如果牠是展演動物，我們也希望能夠好好的被照顧到，好不好？其實日本的奈良鹿是一個很好的經驗，我相信部長一定很懂這個部分。","接下來我想問一個跟消費比較有關的狀態，因為你在報告時有特別提到要加強農產品安全跟溯源管理，我來問一下有關蛋的溯源管理。部長，你知道溯源碼這兩排字代表的意思嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：確實這個溯源碼我們在網路上面也可以查得到，可是如果有誤標或是假標的狀態，目前農業部有沒有什麼更積極的作法？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有定期去查，詳細情況是不是可以請畜牧司來回應？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["李司長宜謙：報告委員，我們每個月都有派同仁跟地方政府針對溯源碼到市面抽查，發現有問題就馬上找業者，請他們做一些修正。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。部長，最近網路上有一群人，他們很積極的在號召大家不要吃所謂的監獄蛋跟地獄蛋，其實很多監獄生產出來的產品是很好的東西，這裡講監獄蛋不是產品很好，而是希望大家不要去吃，為什麼？因為他說我們的……"],["陳部長駿季：是籠飼的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，是籠飼的，那針對這樣的部分，我們知道現在大部分的蛋都是籠飼出來的是大宗，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：當有一群民間的團體在動員這樣的狀態，部長是不是要幫這些籠飼的蛋說一些話，或者說針對這個部分我們要如何不讓農事的蛋被污名化？"],["陳部長駿季：不過我想以現在的經濟生產行為，籠飼蛋還是為主，但是籠飼蛋也有相關的規格跟標準，它必須符合基本的動物福利的部分，有一些可能會用比較友善的方式去飼養，這個我們都會鼓勵，但是不代表籠飼蛋就是非常不好，所以這個部分我們會做比較正確的宣導，來讓我們的消費者認知。"],["鄭委員正鈐：本席也希望你針對「O」是代表有機生產的蛋，「F」是代表放牧生產的蛋，「B」代表平飼生產的蛋，「E」代表豐富化籠飼生產，這部分也都跟民眾做比較好的宣導。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：讓民眾真正知道我們所吃的蛋是怎麼樣情況。另外，之前農業部曾經講過，除了現在的洗選蛋之外，也要擴大一般蛋的溯源編碼，目前這計畫進行到怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在階段性推動的就是洗選蛋是第一階段，因為洗選蛋才有可能去噴印，我們是希望洗選蛋推動到早餐店，或是餐廳的部分會先去推動，在推動的過程中，洗選廠也要有量能，所以我們短期之內是針對洗選蛋的通路做加強。"],["鄭委員正鈐：以目前臺灣的蛋來講，洗選蛋大概占三成，其他的部分要怎麼樣也能夠做到更好的溯源？"],["陳部長駿季：我們第一階段大概是五成，就是讓早餐店或餐飲店或連鎖通路的部分去使用，當他們使用習慣了以後，我們再逐步的去開放到傳統市場，這是最困難的啦，但是相對的我們會努力朝這個方向做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：最後，我想請部長針對新竹南寮漁港周邊清淤，以及海山漁港周邊社區的經營回饋的部分，請到本席辦公室做進一步的說明，好不好？因為主席已經站起來了。"],["陳部長駿季：這部分再跟委員辦公室聯絡時間，再去跟你說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員質詢，謝謝部長。","本席先宣告一下：我們中午不休息，延長開會時間，至委員答詢完畢再休息。","請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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沒有人主動來立案嗎目前說明沒有所以表示現在監察院是完全失能啊對於我們國防壯大這麼重要的軍人家籍行政院拒絕 悍然拒絕編列那本席再跟您討論一下也包括警察消防退休所得替代率到80%"},{"start":235.54,"end":245.485,"text":"請問您 國內紛紛擾擾炒成這樣行政院在155年預算編列了沒有秘書長 編列了沒有這是行政院編列的預算沒有關係啦 我就直接告訴你 都沒有編啦這不只啊這不只啊 卓榮泰公然違憲違法"},{"start":262.682,"end":285.908,"text":"而且這兩個案子立法院三讀通過以後都經過行政院總統院長自己的附屬送到總統總統府總統簽署後公告實施但是連自己附屬總統簽署公告都居然悍不實施請問該當何罪"},{"start":293.76,"end":304.547,"text":"這個我只能說明就是玉石大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡玉石大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡不知道民主黨 這比較勉強你回答這是最基本的Lesson 1沒有辦法回答要保官位 所以沒有辦法回答"},{"start":320.54,"end":342.668,"text":"好 沒關係 本席不勉強你我們就看到現在的監察院是什麼樣的一個監察院再過來 高雄的天坑大大小小50多處啊我們就舉一處來說就好秘書長光其中一處有6公頃6公頃深20米"},{"start":348.598,"end":364.289,"text":"民主黨 這總共挖走多少沙土 知道嗎還有幾倍 挖了多少 因為20米深有挖到幾倍了沒關係 不知道本席告訴你1公頃1萬平方米 6公頃6萬平方米20米深 再乘以20 是120萬立方米"},{"start":373.28,"end":398.549,"text":"大概是一立方公尺大概是1.5噸現在一台車要載一台卡車要載大概20噸要把光這個天坑其他50個坑不要談光談這個坑那個資料都有問題我就這樣給您介紹一下"},{"start":404.113,"end":423.762,"text":"180萬噸一台車載20噸總共要載9萬台車包括我們的國土署天天在那裡監視我們的林保署天天在那裡監視農業部 內政部的直升機天天在那裡飛"},{"start":427.088,"end":449.057,"text":"6萬台車 6萬台卡車 竟然沒有人看到高雄市政府沒有看到高雄市政府警察局沒有看到高雄市政府農業局沒有看到高雄市調查處沒有看到監察委員通通沒有看到"},{"start":452.611,"end":465.502,"text":"我們現在講建築廢棄建築廢棄物囤到裡面我本席現在先不跟你談有毒廢棄物就光講如果有毒廢棄物也在裡面環境部也有問題這裡面光囤在裡面 光囤在裡面建築廢棄物一噸三千塊 一噸三千塊"},{"start":485.451,"end":509.756,"text":"180萬方大概就55億還不包括挖走的土還不包括挖走的土還不包括挖走的土拿去倒賣這麼國家重大的案子有人調查了沒有跟委員報告 有委員韓巡兩位委員還在韓巡中韓巡收集資料 好 謝謝"},{"start":513.396,"end":534.043,"text":"有沒有可能像總統大選的時候恩恩案一樣每天都可以公佈啊還有上半場中半場下半場每天早中晚都可以公佈可以嗎不要跟我講監察法26條早中晚不是趙三餐公佈的嗎 總統大選不是趙三餐在公佈嗎記者都在報導嘛"},{"start":540.427,"end":562.882,"text":"那請問一下恩恩案的調查委員你們有沒有調查這些委員有沒有洩露為什麼時時報日日報呢有沒有調查沒有調查好這是我們的監察院好本期在這裡快速的請您因為沒有關係我們還會再找您來我們現在包括內湖池水庫"},{"start":568.137,"end":597.752,"text":"金湖水庫 阿公店水庫 鹽水杯水庫還有烏山頭水庫民營這個水面式的光電到底是用什麼方式在民生用水的水庫來試行清洗它核准的過程是如何 牽涉多少部會多少地方政府"},{"start":599.264,"end":621.276,"text":"本席在這裡請監察院勇於調查有沒有問題有沒有問題有立案 也有立案最後本席在一定要跟秘書長來切磋一下就了解本席的能量有多大光靠罵傅坤祺就可以當部分區立委"},{"start":622.881,"end":648.479,"text":"我要給養這麼多人齁只要罵我就有工作可以做所以呢光造謠傅坤祺就有工作可以做還可以當到部分區立委本席現在請教你齁剛剛早上的詢談你已經說有提案了有人提案很好本席在這裡公然在國會殿堂請他查明8月11號"},{"start":650.807,"end":678.576,"text":"針對堰塞湖可能發生的洪災花蓮縣政府 光復鄉公所農業部 經濟部 四方會談有會議記錄 也有錄音現在跟行政院各部會開的會統統要錄音錄影有錄音特別政告第一個農業部負責監測堰塞湖只要有任何情況發生溢流或潰壩"},{"start":680.117,"end":706.825,"text":"必須要立刻施放海嘯警報結果 本席那天也問過卓榮泰院長也問過劉世芳部長結果當天沒有施放海嘯警報好 這第一 草菅人命然後在行政院的前進協調所指揮官紀連城政委"},{"start":707.935,"end":731.968,"text":"再給賴清德總統報告的這個驗射壺的警戒發布第一章第一頁就講一定要發海嘯警報這個行政院已經自證其罪了第二個已經聲明在8月11號聲明有錄音檔也有會議記錄要求馬太安西有兩個開口題"},{"start":734.113,"end":754.045,"text":"在去年康瑞颱風就曾經溢流到佛祖街溢流到整個幾幾乎要到光復的街坡這張圖就是農業部的圖我都沒有加一筆在上面農業部就提醒經濟部會從這裡溢流進來這是農業部做的圖也有會議記錄要求他把這兩個洞補上"},{"start":762.439,"end":782.758,"text":"結果 而且強度要夠 結果就是從這裡進來把整個官務鄉淹沒經濟部廢食職務 草菅人命而且更湊巧的是紀連城政委在給賴清德總統報告的過程當中從9月23號發生"},{"start":787.966,"end":810.998,"text":"經濟部水利署立刻 短短不到10天完成了5米高2860公尺長的堤防那請問8月11號會議做的決議他為什麼不做等災後才來做 效率這麼好"},{"start":813.283,"end":838.459,"text":"行政院再一次自證其罪監察院看看你們有什麼樣的風骨到底是監察院還是行政院的調查科我們就拭目以待議長 可以回答嗎就是有關於馬太安的那部分本院在10月2號已經有委員調查可以今天公布嗎"},{"start":839.982,"end":847.931,"text":"因為這個委員是沒有授權幕僚做任何的工作你可以徵詢看看嘛 好不好不然我們還要問淨檢很麻煩問淨檢什麼都問得到 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝傅坤祺委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":525,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時29分）主席，請司法院代理秘書長。"],["主席：監察院。"],["傅委員崐萁：監察院代理秘書長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：秘書長好。早上聽到民眾黨總召黃國昌先生說，對於監察院的預算跟本席有一些爭執，當時他選擇相信了監察院，也就是您給他做的說明，所以他毅然決然把所有刪除的預算全部撤案，當然國民黨對於民眾黨的決定是尊重的，但是我們很詫異，也看看秘書長是不是有一些成果。","光是從8月份審查預算到現在，短短不到兩個月當中，國內發生很多事情，但是最基本的，公務人員廢弛職務，而且位階越高，這個罪責越重。本席在這裡還是要再請教一下，國家的行政院長卓榮泰公然違法，對於立法院國會所通過的法律案，包括軍人加薪，要充實國防，民進黨天天說抗中保臺，如果我們自己的軍人都沒有辦法安身立命，何以保家衛國？三萬五千三的待遇，要扛槍上戰場，而且家裡要如何安家、如何成家？所以立法院通過了給軍人加給調到3萬，等於加2萬，卓榮泰院長悍然拒絕編列，請問秘書長，對這個案子有什麼看法？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員報告，有關於軍人相關的部分，其實監察院有滿多的調查案件，比如說像士官的員額、待遇、跟他們退休相關的給與部分。我們也非常關注軍中人權的部分，這一次立法院通過了相關的法規，但行政院沒有編列預算，目前監察院是沒有陳情案，也沒有檢舉案，所以目前還沒有啟動任何的……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以監察院要看到有人檢舉或是有人陳情才會辦案嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們立案的方式有4種，其中……"],["傅委員崐萁：當然有監察委員主動立案嘛！"],["王代理秘書長增華：有。"],["傅委員崐萁：對不對？所以現在監察委員有幾位？"],["王代理秘書長增華：目前是25。"],["傅委員崐萁：25位。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有人主動來立案嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：目前我說明沒有。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以表示現在監察院是完全失能啊！對於我們國防壯大這麼重要的軍人加給，行政院拒絕，悍然拒絕編列。","本席再跟您討論一下，也包括警察、消防退休所得替代率到80%，請問您，國內紛紛擾擾吵成這樣，行政院在115年預算編列了沒有？秘書長，編列了沒有？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這是行政院編列的預算。"],["傅委員崐萁：沒有關係啦！本席就直接告訴你，都沒有編啦！這不只卓榮泰公然違憲、違法，而且這兩個案子立法院三讀通過以後，都經過行政院卓榮泰院長自己的副署送到總統府，總統簽署以後公告實施，但是連自己副署、總統簽署公告都遽然悍不實施，請問該當何罪？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我只能說明目前是沒有案件。"],["傅委員崐萁：御史大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡？御史大夫的風骨跟腰桿在哪裡？不知道？秘書長，這不叫勉強你回答，這是最基本的lesson one耶！沒有辦法回答？要保官位，所以沒有辦法回答。"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，我是常任文官。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，沒關係，本席不勉強你，我們就看到現在的監察院是什麼樣的一個監察院。","再過來，高雄的天坑大大小小五十多處，我們舉一處來說就好。光其中一處有6公頃，深20米，秘書長，這總共挖走多少沙土你知道嗎？還有級配，挖了多少？因為20米深有挖到級配了。沒關係，不知道本席告訴你，1公頃1萬平方米，6公頃6萬平方米，20米深再乘以20是120萬立方米，1立方公尺大概是1.5噸，現在1臺卡車要載大概20噸，光這個天坑，其他50個坑不要談，光談這個坑，那個資料都有問題啊！我就這樣給您介紹一下。","180萬噸，1臺車載20噸，總共要載9萬臺車！包括我們的國土署天天在那裡監視，我們的林保署天天在那裡監視，農業部、內政部的直升機天天在那裡飛，9萬臺卡車竟然沒有人看到！高雄市政府沒有看到！高雄市政府警察局沒有看到！高雄市政府農業局沒有看到！高雄市調查處沒有看到！監察委員統統沒有看到！","我們現在講建築廢棄物囤到裡面，本席現在先不跟你談有毒廢棄物，如果有毒廢棄物也在裡面，環境部也有問題。光囤在裡面，建築廢棄物1噸3,000塊，180萬方大概就55億，還不包括挖走的土拿去盜賣，國家這麼重大的案子，有人調查了沒有？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員報告，有委員函詢，兩位委員還在函詢中。"],["傅委員崐萁：函詢。"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，要蒐集資料，先蒐集資料。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。有沒有可能像總統大選時的恩恩案一樣，每天都可以公布？還有上半場、中半場、下半場，每天早中晚都可以公布，可以嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我剛剛……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要跟我講監察法第二十六條。"],["王代理秘書長增華：的確是有監察法的適用。"],["傅委員崐萁：早中晚不是照三餐公布的嗎？總統大選啊！不是照三餐在公布嗎？記者都在報導嘛！請問一下，恩恩案的調查委員，你們有沒有調查這些委員有沒有洩漏？為什麼時時報、日日報呢？有沒有調查？沒有調查，這是我們的監察院。","好，本席在這裡快速地請教您，沒有關係，我們還會再找您來。現在包括內埔子水庫、金湖水庫、阿公店水庫、鹽水埤水庫還有烏山頭水庫，民營水面式的光電到底是用什麼方式在民生用水的水庫來施行清洗？它核准的過程是如何？牽涉多少部會、多少地方政府？本席在這裡請監察院勇於調查，有沒有問題？有沒有問題？"],["王代理秘書長增華：有立案。"],["傅委員崐萁：有立案，好。最後本席一定要跟秘書長來切磋一下，就瞭解本席的能量有多大，光靠罵傅崐萁就可以當不分區立委，我要給養這麼多人，只要罵我就有工作可以做，所以光造謠傅崐萁就有工作可以做，還可以當到不分區立委。","本席再請教你，剛剛早上的詢答你已經說有提案了，有人提案了，很好，本席在這裡公然在國會殿堂請他查明8月11日針對堰塞湖可能發生的洪災，花蓮縣政府、光復鄉公所、農業部、經濟部四方會談，有會議紀錄也有錄音，現在跟行政院各部會開的會統統要錄音錄影，有錄音。特別正告，第一個，農業部負責監測堰塞湖，只要有任何情況，發生溢流或潰壩，必須要立刻施放海嘯警報，本席那一天問過卓榮泰院長，也問過劉世芳部長，結果當天沒有施放海嘯警報，這是第一個，草菅人命。然後在行政院的前進協調所，指揮官季連成政委給賴清德總統報告堰塞湖的警戒發布，在第1張、第1頁就講一定要發海嘯警報，所以行政院已經自證其罪了。","第二個，在8月11日已經聲明，有錄音檔也有會議紀錄，要求馬太鞍溪的兩個開口堤，因為去年康芮颱風就從那裡溢流到佛祖街，幾乎要溢流到光復的街廓，這張圖就是農業部的圖，我都沒有加一筆在上面。農業部已經提醒經濟部會從這裡溢流進來，這是農業部做的圖，也有會議紀錄，要求它把這兩個洞補上，而且強度要夠，結果就是從這裡進來，把整個光復鄉淹沒。經濟部廢弛職務，草菅人命，而且更湊巧的是，季連成政委在給賴清德總統報告的過程當中，從9月23日發生，經濟部水利署立刻在短短不到10天完成了5米高、2,860公尺長的堤防，那請問8月11日會議做的決議它為什麼不做？等災後才來做，效率這麼好，行政院再一次自證其罪。","監察院，看看你們有什麼樣的風骨，到底是監察院還是行政院的調查科，我們就拭目以待，秘書長，可以回答嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：好，有關於馬太鞍那部分，本院在10月2日已經有委員調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：可以天天公布嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：因為委員沒有授權幕僚做任何的說明。"],["傅委員崐萁：你可以徵詢看看，好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：不然我們還要問「鏡檢」，很麻煩啊！問「鏡檢」什麼都問得到，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝傅崐萁委員。","接下來請羅智強委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","吳宗憲","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","羅智強"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00006"}}},{"id":"164176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db61db416c79bcd4dea1d8817d393176c4392e8362d61d61ef2c5eb4435e8f3c8585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:30:40 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37億"},{"start":246.863,"end":262.351,"text":"你現在說四年一百億我再給你一年給二十五億美金要賺多少錢你要叫台灣去給我賺所以我覺得莫名其妙你說不是政府出錢了"},{"start":263.451,"end":282.71,"text":"是那些產商出錢的 廠商沒辦法供啊你有沒有想到他有賣啦 台灣的需要量容納量有沒有那麼大哇 你講得迷迷糊糊 我是說你高雄資訊的都要講我可不可以做一點說明我們現在給你記喔 37億是這四種產品喔"},{"start":287.489,"end":302.604,"text":"大量進口 你現在又4年100億 又多1個月比現在37億大概增加70%從美國進口 每一年喔我感覺你算是賣亂搞八道啦"},{"start":303.732,"end":308.376,"text":"讓我很清楚的講我們這次的這樣的一個採購他是每兩年一次的例行採購那這個例行採購是業者自己去出資的你聽我說完好不好然後不然我每次都講不清楚"},{"start":324.147,"end":340.761,"text":"然後本身我們簽的是購買的意願書不是購買的合約所以最後因為商人還是會看最後的價格所以這次是聯合採購是業者根據他的需求去採購的意願而已先去表達"},{"start":341.522,"end":360.449,"text":"不一定要買最後一般就是最後因為現在美國的品質比較好價格也比較低所以相對的用年的採購會降低他們的採購成本第二個就是說這些產品他最主要是飼料用的沒有啦 我跟你講一個問題嘛現在37億美金是103年的進口嘛"},{"start":365.831,"end":382.076,"text":"你兩人採購一次 美國人也可以算你不用跟我說 你說那個你4年內 我假設一年增加25億不是增加 不是增加 是包含在不過30 36億乘以4620 150億了你講100億的話 怎麼會通嘛"},{"start":390.18,"end":402.268,"text":"你再拼著要救人嘛 這個一定是增加的嘛我們現在平均一年25億 四年100億那過去五年這些項目加起來也是22到25億之間"},{"start":405.421,"end":420.981,"text":"那就是沒有選擇 要怎麼幫你不是 我們是用沒有 因為我們的採購年度的採購每兩年一次我跟你講 不是採購你依照這樣的算法沒有增加你去的功效也沒有多大"},{"start":422.09,"end":436.695,"text":"我們主要就是為了對等干稅看能不能降到像日本 韓國一樣我跟你講 大家不要說假話你這樣算起來沒有增加他有什麼好高興說你很偉大把你巴結得很好"},{"start":437.495,"end":456.206,"text":"一定是你四年中交的100億美金嘛我們這次的農法南區有兩個目的一個目的就是聯合採購一方面就是我們希望建立一個長久穩定的一個關係就是友好的關係所以採購本身比113年度因為他是根據當年度的價格會浮動"},{"start":457.006,"end":480.503,"text":"所以是我們需要的我不是價格浮動啊我現在說4年裡面1年給1個月不是增加是原來的25億我們就給他買1個月啊你有什麼算法好啦你現在講出來回去再講我的意思啦你運氣夠強大不是沒有增加我們沒有額外採購喔現在每一年就買25億美金假設到你所講這4樣的東西25億4年100億你最多的100億的功用在哪裡"},{"start":487.782,"end":512.605,"text":"你那個一百億已經追加了如果只有你有一百億沒什麼人開心他逼著你美國不會那麼老實的人啊我跟您講喔我們任德的商品有人買大家都很開心後來 還有鳳梨鳳梨 各自大離家我們現在你看喔 台灣政府都不要跟我造假喔 美國要進口我們鳳梨 我給你舉例"},{"start":514.854,"end":536.535,"text":"109年中國大陸進口我們大概4800萬美金現在你外銷日本大概2200多萬美金一年那以前我在綠海岸的時候你們說把鳳梨外銷到澳洲市場很大每一年才九噸八噸"},{"start":537.967,"end":545.121,"text":"啊你再回想一下如果我們的台灣貨你銷到美國去的時候怎麼銷"},{"start":547.106,"end":575.778,"text":"你說要開放不要講的聲音那麼大就像澳洲一樣每一年才外銷奉尼巴頓而已阿根委員報告所有的市場開放它是一個逐步增加的一個過程不是瞬間就增加第二個部分美國的部分它不用去牙關我跟你說我不知道你現在幾點要出來還是要切片出來後面的重點在哪裡"},{"start":577.376,"end":588.891,"text":"你整天出來 美國人很懶惰 人工貨業用非常高所以我今天一定要送 那些啊農業的對人關稅沒有什麼好怕的我現在叫你說 廣積糧"},{"start":592.699,"end":609.393,"text":"值高強這台電力有什麼地方產品就加持成功 農產品所以你要把能量物流收好做大做廣做到每一個地方都有那是存糧食最有效最能保值的地方"},{"start":610.612,"end":637.992,"text":"你現在兩岸物流不去加強你說要依靠什麼都給 你最先要保證我們兩岸物流的計畫在第二期也有經費你一定要這麼做不然這個時候世界情勢非常緊張我們把自己兩岸物流顧好萬一有事情我們可以把東西保存起來這是我前兩年再來"},{"start":639.633,"end":668.172,"text":"這樣說要仔細站起來 我實在很短業務報告那麼多 只有7分鐘可以講話要是我當召委 我一定12分鐘好好問一下 要了解 再一下我拜託 農後漁港還有苗栗的兩面霧流還有我後龍的那個 那個叫什麼雜糧專輯 三四樣給我拜託 你有答應我了所以要全力的輔導苗栗縣對不對"},{"start":669.691,"end":693.393,"text":"我又有說過這樣的話 說會來協助苗栗協助沒有 你說會全力幫忙跟協助 現在嬌娜這個後續喔 因為你現在真的說我是外公啊 我是看到你兩面物流啊我們會協助啊 會全力協助啊兩面物流就兩面物流 你怎麼又有增加了一夜兩面物流 哈里布跟武昌暢宇"},{"start":695.12,"end":705.051,"text":"你這邊有沒有報告什麼增加1億的能量物流物流 能量物流就是一個系統好 謝謝陳昌明委員謝謝我們會盡量來協助啊你越來越客氣啊"},{"start":710.711,"end":725.198,"text":"不是 因為現在很多財務法的關係不是財務法 這個是我以前講好的既定政策我當初的承諾的時候那時候財務法沒有這兩年的立法會變成一筆勾勾我就覺得我們沒有在做事情啊主席 站起來讓你稍講話安全一點謝謝 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":775,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時30分）主席，首先有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：陳部長，這次你的業務報告主軸就是支持產業、安定就業、照顧弱勢、加強韌性。我相信你在報告裡面當然提到很多，但是最重要的就是美國對等關稅對臺灣農業的影響。我看到你在報告裡這樣寫：美國是我國最重要的農產品貿易夥伴，臺灣在113年一年從美國進口了36.9億元，占了我國農業產品的22.3%，而臺灣是美國第八大農產品海外市場，主要進口黃豆、玉米、小麥、牛肉，對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員超明：再來，你在報告另外一處這樣寫：臺灣一年大概外銷美國8.9億美元，占我國出口農產品的17.6%，其中我國外銷美國最多的幾項產品有蝴蝶蘭、茶葉、毛豆、吳郭魚、鬼頭刀魚還有鱸魚。你在報告裡還提到蝴蝶蘭，其他國家跟我國沒得競爭，只有荷蘭，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：主要的競爭對手國是荷蘭。"],["陳委員超明：是荷蘭。","至於茶葉，我國做高精緻茶葉沒有影響，做混合茶才有影響，混合茶是從越南進口臺灣再調配的，這是一點。關於毛豆，我們的競爭對手是中國大陸，但中國大陸現在稅率如果是57%、100%的話，也不是我們的競爭對手。吳郭魚銷到美國時，只要越南、中國大陸這幾個國家關稅都比我國還要高，也都不是我們的對手。鬼頭刀魚我就比較不了解，是在中南美洲……"],["陳部長駿季：祕魯。"],["陳委員超明：喔！那個地方產的和我們這邊銷出去的當然品質有差別啊！這種我比較不內行，所以不敢講。鱸魚也是中南美洲產、臺灣飼養的。"],["陳部長駿季：土耳其。"],["陳委員超明：喔！土耳其啊！那我告訴你，土耳其現在關稅也非常高。"],["陳部長駿季：60%。"],["陳委員超明：所以你不用緊張，美國的對等關稅其實對我國農業影響不大。但是我常常想一個問題，你說要帶團到美國，4年要採買100億美元的美國農產品對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：讓我說明一下。"],["陳委員超明：你不用講，等我問完你再講，我要把疑問點講出來啊！你的自我表白我怎麼能相信？","這裡面仍然有黃豆、玉米、小麥、牛肉，我為什麼談？這4年100億美元我要說清楚，不然你等一下會……我們現在大概就進口這4種產品，大約36.9億美元、37億美元，你現在又說4年要採購100億美元，所以我再幫你加一年25億美元，加起來就七、八十億美元了，你要叫臺灣吞？所以我覺得莫名其妙！你說不是政府出錢，是那些廠商出錢的，但廠商沒那麼傻啊！比較便宜才會買啦！臺灣的需要量、容納量有沒有那麼大？我被你講得迷迷糊糊，我以為你到時候對你有的資訊都會講實在話。"],["陳部長駿季：委員，我可不可以做一點說明？"],["陳委員超明：你要記得喔！現在37億美元是這四種產品大量進口喔！你現在又規劃4年100億美元，等於每年再多買25億美元，從美國進口的比現在的37億美元大概增加70%，而且是每一年喔！你的算數不要亂湊啦！不然，多這100億美元、也就是一年多25億美元要買什麼？你告訴我。"],["陳部長駿季：讓我很清楚地講。這樣的採購是每兩年一次的例行採購，這種例行採購是業者自己出資的。你聽我講完好嗎？不然我每次都講不清楚。"],["陳委員超明：好。"],["陳部長駿季：然後，我們簽的是購買意願書，不是購買合約，因為商人還是會看最後價格。所以這次聯合採購是業者根據其需求去採購的，這是第一點。"],["陳委員超明：是先表達意願，不一定要買？要講清楚喔！"],["陳部長駿季：對，一般都是最後決定。現在因為美國的品質比較好、價格也比較低，所以聯合採購可以相對降低採購成本。第二，這些產品最主要是飼料用。"],["陳委員超明：不，我向你提一個問題嘛！37億美元是103年的進口值嘛！而你兩年採購一次，美國人也會算。在這4年當中，我假設一年增加採購25億美元……"],["陳部長駿季：不是增加，就是年度採購。"],["陳委員超明：36億美元乘以4，就快要150億美元了，你講100億美元怎麼講得通嘛？那就變成你向美國買得少了啊！一定是要增加的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在平均一年是25億美元、4年合計100億美元，而過去5年這些項目加起來也是22億美元到25美元之間。"],["陳委員超明：那就是沒增加啊！他們怎麼會捧你捧成這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：因為我們的年度採購是每兩年一次。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你講，不是採購啊！依照這樣的算法沒有增加，那你去的功效就沒有多大，主要就是為了對等關稅能不能降到跟日本、韓國一樣。我跟你講，大家不要講假話，要是算起來沒有增加，美國有什麼好高興、還說你很偉大、把你巴結得很好？一定是因為你4年增加了100億美元採購嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：這次農訪團去有兩個目的：一個目的就是聯合採購，另一方面就是我們希望建立長久穩定的友好關係。採購比113年度多，是因為會根據當年度價格浮動，所以還是買我們需要的。"],["陳委員超明：我現在不是在說價格浮動，而是在說4年之內，每年要多買25億美元。"],["陳部長駿季：不是增加，是原來的25億美元。"],["陳委員超明：我們本來就向美國買25億美元了，你是用什麼算法？好啦，你現在講這樣，但回去要再想想我的意思啦！你們是又增加採購，不是沒有增加。"],["陳部長駿季：我們沒有額外採購喔！"],["陳委員超明：現在每一年就買25億美元。假設照你所講的，這四樣東西一年25億美元，那4年100億美元的功用在哪裡？那100億美元就是追加的！"],["陳部長駿季：這是業者的需求。"],["陳委員超明：如果你只採購100億美元，那沒什麼好高興，他會逼著你，畢竟美國不是那麼老實的人啦！猶太人算得很精，你不要被拐了啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟你講，任何商品只要有人買，大家都很開心。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！","還有鳳梨，鳳梨哥斯大黎加也有。你看喔！臺灣政府現在都不要造假說美國要進口我國鳳梨。我舉個例子給你聽，109年，中國大陸進口我們大概4,800萬美元，現在外銷日本，一年大概兩千兩百多萬美元。以前我在立法院的時候，你們說把鳳梨外銷到澳洲，還宣稱市場很大，結果每一年才九噸、八噸。你再試想一下，如果臺灣鳳梨銷到美國去，要怎麼銷？若要開放，其實聲音不用那麼大，就像以前賣給澳洲一樣，每一年外銷鳳梨才8噸而已啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，所有市場開放都是逐步增加的過程，而不是瞬間就增加。"],["陳委員超明：我曉得啦！"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分，美國的部分是不用去冠芽。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，我不知道你現在是整顆出去還是切片出去，我後面的重點在哪裡？若是整顆出去，美國人很懶惰，人工費用非常高，所以我們一定要省，那些農業的對等關稅沒有什麼好怕的。我現在是叫你「廣積糧、築高牆」，這裡面你有寫到農產品的加值增供，所以你要把冷鏈物流做好，做大、做廣、做到每一個地方都有，那是存糧食最有效最能保值的地方。你現在對冷鏈物流不去加強，你說要依靠什麼都假的！"],["陳部長駿季：我們冷鏈物流的計畫在第二期也有經費。"],["主席：陳委員，時間到了。"],["陳委員超明：好。你一定要這麼做，不然當下世界的情勢非常緊張，我們把自己的冷鏈物流顧好，萬一有事情，我們可以把東西保存起來。","主席已經站起來，時間實在很短，業務報告那麼多，委員只有7分鐘時間可以講話。"],["主席：你已經多講了。"],["陳委員超明：要是我當召委，我一定給委員講12分鐘好好問一下要了解。","我再講一下，拜託部長，包括龍鳳漁港、苗栗的冷鏈物流，還有我後龍的雜糧專區等等，有三、四項給我拜託，你答應我要全力的輔導苗栗縣，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我有說過這樣的話，我有說過會協助苗栗。"],["陳委員超明：沒有，你說全力幫忙跟協助，現在縮回去了？"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。"],["陳部長駿季：這個後續……"],["陳委員超明：你們現在很複雜，我是不想講那麼多，我是看你們的冷鏈物流，其實冷鏈物流就冷鏈物流，怎麼又增加了漁業冷鏈物流？被你們搞得亂七八糟了！你書面報告說什麼增加漁業的冷鏈物流，冷鏈物流就是一個系統嘛！"],["主席：好，謝謝陳超明委員。"],["陳委員超明：你會來給我們幫忙嗎？"],["主席：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會儘量來協助啊！"],["陳委員超明：你越來越客氣了。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，現在很多因為財劃法的關係，我們很多……"],["陳委員超明：財劃法是我以前講好的既定政策啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我當初承諾的時候，那時候財劃法沒有喔！"],["陳委員超明：我們立法委員被你這樣一搞的話，我覺得我沒有在做事情啊！"],["主席：謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：你看主席站起來了，讓你少講話，安全一點。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝陳超明委員質詢，謝謝部長。","繼續請鄭委員正鈐質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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請下林部長還有治安署蔡署長林部長請 蔡署長請"},{"start":12.811,"end":21.518,"text":"部長好 資安是非常重要的當然資安是必須要經過專業的機構來驗證所以政府部門對於資安的驗證有相關的採購其實我們從這些採購的過程裡面以及實際的資安驗證我們可以發現到整個認證"},{"start":35.29,"end":48.137,"text":"不正確的現象是非常令人頭痛的第二個證書的失真因為你認證了不正確當然就會對於相關的證書會有失真的這樣一個問題那我們更發現到相關的顧問案"},{"start":53.18,"end":73.779,"text":"跟驗證案 它是捆綁在一起的這種求援兼裁判的這樣的一個亂象其實是造成了資安相當大的一個漏洞因為我們相關的資安驗證就會出現假的安全的一個保證而且我們這種跨部會的監管架構"},{"start":75.06,"end":91.538,"text":"也沒有辦法建立起來這當然會形成一個重大的一個資安的漏洞當然我們國家級的這一種啊資安的驗證機構啊就只有一家就是TAF那TAF啊他的驗證是比較專業而嚴謹的但是"},{"start":94.841,"end":106.472,"text":"TAF他可以授權認證國內的資安機構可以去做相關的這些資安的驗證總共有幾家來說明一下是"},{"start":108.235,"end":118.846,"text":"報告那個詳細的家屬不同不過剛文提到就是說輔導跟驗證廠商之間的關係要怎麼把它確立非常的嚴謹就是說不會因為輔導國內TAF認證的這些資安機構是只有9家"},{"start":126.173,"end":139.958,"text":"因為國內的驗證的這些範圍跟機構非常的多那TAF人力當然是不足所以他有這些認證授權的資安的機構只有9家但是人力還是明顯的不足啦當然我們看到"},{"start":141.799,"end":158.135,"text":"數位部也通過這樣一個認可就是有這個國際認證的集合員的註冊機構就是IRCAIRCA有這個證照的人他就可以進行公部門的一個治安的一個認證那我在這邊要來提出相關的問題就是說"},{"start":162.523,"end":180.216,"text":"我們政府要求各部位要完成資安的認證跟驗證但是呢 品質是差不齊的 為什麼因為市面上有很多的驗證機構就是所謂的CB他向台灣的TAF取得授權"},{"start":181.482,"end":200.062,"text":"那這些他們就可以直接的對企業或者是機關進行審查並且核發ISO的相關的證書那當然這些應該是要很專業要很嚴謹的驗證機構會出現下面的問題第一個就是為了逃避規範"},{"start":201.664,"end":212.471,"text":"或者是為了要逃避TAF的監督所以有些驗證機構他發出的證書是沒有登錄的或者是說他是不受國際認證的一個相關的證書第二個"},{"start":217.711,"end":236.186,"text":"有些业者他会提供假认证机构所颁发的一个证书那相较于TF是非常的严谨他们会定期的访视 抽查还有见证这些相关的评鉴那其实我们看到国内的这样的一个状况"},{"start":236.926,"end":257.013,"text":"治安的保證是不足的部長你有什麼看法說明是 剛才那個委員問的這個幾個問題事實上都非常能理解這個對我們來講非常的重要因為這個認證 治安認證是一個對國家 對企業來講都很重要的事情它本身也是一個很大的一個產業"},{"start":257.953,"end":286.323,"text":"所以我们在政策上我们是希望说能在台湾扶植一个健康的认证的产业链就是认证本身是一个生意然后辅导也是一个生意但是我们要确定说认证跟辅导不能互相勾结然后也不能说为了要绑标故意在某一些的标案里面要求这个认证而实际上不需要认证部长我们这不只是国内的问题其实国际上充斥着各类型以及不同的"},{"start":286.903,"end":316.203,"text":"国际验证的机构那不同的国际治安证照也是一个严重的问题我们看到数位部治安署是否有能力去协助基层的这些采购承办人员就是说能够去分辨哪些是国内合法的检验机构验证机构哪些是国际认可的国内认可的这种国际治安的证明有没有办法来说明一下我们要去协助"},{"start":317.563,"end":342.711,"text":"是 謝謝委員我想有兩個點第一個點就是有關於剛剛講的這個ISO27001這個驗證的標準那我們基本上會要求驗證的機構是要TAFTAF所認可的這個認證過之後的驗證機構所以這個部分應該是可以follow這樣的規則這要去全面的解釋因為如果最根本的驗證機構 驗證人員他是不符合國內的標準而且不符合我們認可的國際標準"},{"start":344.511,"end":349.917,"text":"我們怎麼去確保這些資安驗證它是符合規範的沒有錯 所以我們現在認定是說這個有經過他所認證的這個驗證機構所發的這些資安的這個驗證的這些證書是合以我們要求規定這是我們會去要求接下來我們就討論到剛才提到顧問捆綁驗證的這樣一個問題"},{"start":366.115,"end":388.254,"text":"那當然我們為了確保資安驗證機構的公正性跟他的獨立性其實資安署在資通安全責任等級分級辦法一半事項就有明確的指出輔導案及驗證案之服務契約應該要分別招標但是我們看到在政府的採購網的資訊"},{"start":390.6,"end":405.195,"text":"其實你要去查一下政府的標案充斥著資安的輔導跟資安的驗證他是綁在一起的這種標案這怎麼去確保資安驗證的獨立性跟公正性呢那署長說明"},{"start":405.976,"end":428.848,"text":"是 謝謝委員長 的確就是我們當初就是要求這個公正性和獨立性 所以我們有這個要求要分別招標 那這個事實上我們之前也新聞給各機關就是照這個規定來辦理 那未來我們會在我們有一些相關的巡迴的研討會上面我們還會再宣導各個機關就是說在這個部分的這個相關的招標跟這個採購過程中要把它分開出來"},{"start":430.222,"end":453.674,"text":"另外一個嚴重的問題就是說我們基層人員他的教育跟培訓的不足那其實也襯托出我們中央監管的相關的一個缺乏監管的這樣一個議題因為假證證機構還有這些假證書他仍然還是有廣大的市場 為什麼"},{"start":455.373,"end":479.298,"text":"因為他還可以通過政府的審核這就莫名其妙了就顯示出基層的公務人員他不具備應該有的準確的識別證書證偽的能力另外資安就是國安就是說我們國內現在缺乏能夠跟國際接軌而且能夠監管各資安驗收機構驗證機構"},{"start":483.063,"end":499.675,"text":"而且能夠具體監管國際資安證照的這些機關我們還是缺乏這種能夠跟國際接軌相關的這些資安證照的這些機關是不是有這樣的問題我們都必須要明確的去檢討"},{"start":502.13,"end":514.922,"text":"目前TAF作為驗證資安驗證機構其實它就已經分身乏術了那我們必須要能夠直接能夠解決目前的認證驗證的亂象的單位這部分"},{"start":518.335,"end":545.293,"text":"蘇發部必須要跨部會跟其他單位來做研議來部長最後時間讓你簡單說明一下你未來的規劃非常贊同那個委員的這些想法那的確就是如同我們剛才講的那個我們要想辦法讓確定說台灣的這些認證機構還有輔導單位成為一個健康的產業生態而且我們一定要去把那些帷貌或者是在利用這種機構機制在"},{"start":548.655,"end":575.009,"text":"塗一些不法或者灰色地帶的利益的這些事情我們必須把它抓出來那我們這個地方我們會努力去查核謝謝部長跟署長都非常清楚資安非常重要但資安就是必須要資安的驗證那資安的驗證政府的採購過程裡面剛才跟部長相關的這些討論過程裡面我們發現到有很多的這種嚴重的問題這對資安的漏洞都是讓它慢慢的擴大這對國家的安全"},{"start":575.729,"end":587.079,"text":"以及人民的權益都是損傷非常大所以資安的驗證資安的驗證採購是非常重要是希望部長全力去做檢討跟改善是謝謝委員的督促謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（11時26分）謝謝洪孟楷召委，請林部長及資安署蔡署長。"],["主席：請林部長及蔡署長。"],["林部長宜敬：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好。資安是非常重要的，而且資安必須經過專業機構驗證，所以政府部門對於資安驗證有相關的採購。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["李委員昆澤：從這些採購的過程以及實際的資安驗證，我們可以發現整個認證不正確的現象的確非常令人頭痛。第二個是證書的失真，因為認證不正確，當然就會有相關證書失真的問題。我們更發現相關的顧問案與驗證案是綑綁在一起的，這種球員兼裁判的亂象其實會造成資安相當大的漏洞，因為相關的資安驗證就會出現假的安全保證，而且我們這種跨部會的監管架構也沒辦法建立起來，當然就會形成重大的資安漏洞。目前我們的國家級資安驗證機構只有一家，就是TAF，它的驗證比較專業嚴謹，但是TAF可以授權國內的資安機構做相關的資安驗證，總共有幾家？說明一下。"],["蔡署長福隆：報告委員，詳細的家數不同，不過，剛剛委員提到輔導與驗證廠商之間的關係，該如何確認能夠非常的嚴謹，不會因為……"],["李委員昆澤：國內TAF認證的資安機構只有9家，因為國內要驗證的範圍及機構非常多，TAF的人力當然不足，所以授權認證的資安機構一共有9家，但人力還是明顯的不足啦！當然我們看到數位部也通過這樣的認可，就是國際認證稽核員註冊機構（IRCA），在IRCA有證照的人就可以進行公部門的資安認證。我在此要提出相關的問題，政府要求各部會完成資安的認證及驗證，但品質卻是參差不齊的，為什麼？因為市面上有很多的驗證機構就是所謂的CB，他們在向臺灣的TAF取得授權後，就可以直接對企業或者是機關進行審查並且核發ISO的相關證書，這些應該要很專業、很嚴謹的驗證機構就會出現下面的問題：第一個是為了逃避規費或為了逃避TAF的監督，有些驗證機構發出的證書是沒有登錄或是不受國際認證的證書；第二個是有些業者會提供假認證機構所頒發的證書。相較之下，TAF則是非常的嚴謹，他們會定期的訪視、抽查還有鑑證這些相關的評鑑，我們看到國內這樣的一個狀況，其實資安的保證是不足的。部長對此有什麼看法？說明一下。"],["林部長宜敬：對剛才委員問的幾個問題，事實上我都非常能理解，這個對我們來講非常的重要，因為資安認證是對國家、對企業來講都很重要的一個事情，它本身也是一個很大的產業，所以我們在政策上是希望能在臺灣扶植一個健康的認證產業鏈，就是認證本身是一個生意，然後輔導也是一個生意，但是我們要確定認證跟輔導不能互相勾結，也不能為了要綁標，故意在某些標案裡面要求認證而事實上不需要認證。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，這不止是國內的問題，其實國際上也充斥著各類型以及不同的國際驗證機構，不同的國際資安證照也是一個嚴重的問題，數位部資安署是否有能力協助基層這些採購承辦人員分辨哪些是國內合法的檢驗機構、驗證機構，哪些是國際認可的、國內認可的國際資安證明？有沒有辦法來說明一下？我們要去協助啊！"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員，我想這有兩個點，第一個點就是有關於剛剛講的ISO 27001這個驗證的標準，基本上我們都要求驗證機構是要TAF認可的、認證過的驗證機構，所以這個部分應該是可以follow這樣的規則。"],["李委員昆澤：所以要去全面的檢視，因為如果最根本的驗證機構、驗證人員都是不符合國內標準且不符合我們認可的國際標準的，那我們怎麼確保這些資安驗證是符合規範的？"],["蔡署長福隆：沒有錯，所以我們就認定必須是由TAF認證的驗證機構所發的這些資安驗證證書才是合於我們的規定，這是我們要求的。"],["李委員昆澤：接下來我們就要討論到剛才提到的顧問捆綁驗證的問題，為了確保資安驗證機構的公正性跟獨立性，其實資安署在「資通安全責任等級分級辦法應辦事項」有明確指出輔導案及驗證案之服務契約應該要分別招標，但是我們在政府採購網的資訊看到政府的標案充斥著資安的輔導跟資安的驗證綁在一起的這種標案，這樣怎麼去確保資安驗證的獨立性跟公正性呢？請署長說明一下。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員，的確，當初為了公正性跟獨立性，所以我們才有要分別招標這個要求，事實上我們之前也行文給各機關要照這個規定來辦理，未來我們還會在相關的巡迴研討會上再向各個機關進行宣導，就是說在這個部分相關的招標跟採購過程中要把它分開出來。"],["李委員昆澤：另外一個嚴重的問題就是我們基層人員的教育跟培訓不足，這其實也襯托出中央缺乏監管的議題，因為假認證機構及這些假證書仍然有廣大的市場，為什麼？因為它還可以通過政府的審核，這就莫名其妙了！這也顯示出基層的公務人員不具備該有的、準確的識別證書真偽的能力。","另外，資安就是國安，我們國內現在缺乏能夠跟國際接軌而且能夠監管各資安驗證機構並具體監管國際資安證照的機關，我們還是缺乏這種能夠跟國際接軌的相關資安證照機關，是不是有這樣的問題，我們都必須要明確的去檢討。目前TAF作為資安驗證機構其實已經是分身乏術了，我們必須要有能夠直接解決目前認證、驗證亂象的單位，在這部分，數發部必須要跨部會的跟其他單位進行研議。在本席發言的最後時間內，請部長簡單說明一下你未來的規劃。"],["林部長宜敬：非常贊同委員的這些想法，的確如同我們剛才講的，我們要想辦法確定臺灣的這些認證機構還有輔導單位成為一個健康的產業生態，而且一定要把那些偽冒或是利用這種機制以圖一些不法或者灰色地帶利益的事情抓出來，這些地方我們會努力去查核。"],["李委員昆澤：部長跟署長都非常清楚資安非常重要，但資安就是必須要有資安驗證，但在政府的採購過程裡面，剛才跟部長討論時我們發現到資安的驗證有很多嚴重的問題，這些資安的漏洞若是讓它慢慢的擴大，對國家安全以及人民權益的損傷都非常大，所以資安的驗證、資安的驗證採購是非常重要的，希望部長全力去做檢討跟改善。"],["林部長宜敬：是，謝謝委員的督促。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請廖先祥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164173","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6b32d929fef1cbace32e8c280ed77980f92e8362d61d61ef2ab3a0f130147b6495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:17:47 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謝謝主席 有請速發部林一進部長來 請林部長"},{"start":20,"end":43.363,"text":"各位委員長 部長好 恭喜部長就任一個月希望這個抒發部有不少的legacy這個講好的叫傳奇 講不好的是挑戰那我想我們一起來努力那抒發部自成立以來到目前為止一共只送過兩部法案到立法院審查通過一部是電子簽章法 另外一部是資通安全法今天就這兩部法的施行想要來和部長做討論"},{"start":44.384,"end":60.88,"text":"首先是資安的部分不知道部長有沒有體驗到我相信你應該知道我們現在資安領域有非常多嚴峻的挑戰這個趨勢Cyber Risk Report有提到我們在資安風險上有很多的指標名列前茅雖然我們有非常多資安人才都是一等一的"},{"start":61.44,"end":83.886,"text":"但是我們可以看到這個勒索軟體攻擊呢世界排名第4 47萬多次那有看到惡意城市的偵測數量世界排名第5啦那一共偵測攔截1.7億次我想部長我們資安界有時候會提到木桶理論就是一個木桶的這個側板最低的部分就是水會漏出來的部分那我們金周刊有看到2024年2025年9月"},{"start":86.267,"end":109.738,"text":"之間的上市櫃的這個公司發布的資安重訓這個資安威脅的總數116件那受害的除了科技業也有鋼鐵塑膠食品紡織等等的傳統產業受害公司當中有很多數據很精彩資本100億元以下的公司佔78%但是有一半以上的公司資本則是在10億元以下"},{"start":110.478,"end":132.744,"text":"表示什麼呢台灣168萬家的中小企業佔我們總體企業總量的98%以上正在成為駭客眼中的肥羊那抒發部一直有說公司協力全社會治安防禦任性不應該只是口號那我們有看到這一次也非常感謝我們大家一起努力這個資通安全法的修正草案通過"},{"start":133.484,"end":149.87,"text":"第四條有政府應協助民間處理因應及防範重大自動安全事件這是本席這一次修法版本當中最重要的主張之一那這個行政院預計在115年的3月23號實施目前還沒有正式上路"},{"start":150.31,"end":167.294,"text":"那抒發部現在應該正在進行協助民間提升資安防護的規劃請問部長 抒發部目前打算如何協防民間資安錢在哪裡 人又在哪裡115年度預計投入多少的預算人力來進行所謂的民間資安聯防"},{"start":168.317,"end":186.037,"text":"OK 謝謝委員的垂詢那關於這個中小企業的資安的確是一個很大的問題因為通常中小企業這是我的題目謝謝 謝謝部長因為我們時間有限啦你可不可以就告訴我嘛多少錢多少人啊因為我是外委會的嘛我時間有限嘛多少錢多少人啊115年謝謝部長"},{"start":188.173,"end":216.932,"text":"謝謝委員 那個資產法在這條通過其實對整個民間企業的資產防護非常重要不要再重複我的問題明年我們的預算編列目前大概是一億左右的經費在有關Support整個中小企業跟一般企業的資產部分我們有這麼多的案件這麼多的重訊我們花一億一億元知道在台北可以買幾棟房子嗎我想這個到底是不是符合啊 部長"},{"start":219.435,"end":231.128,"text":"謝謝 謝謝 謝謝我們請部長看一下我們官網上面寫建構全社會資安防禦任性編一億啊夠不夠啊不夠我們 對嘛你今天寫吧委員讓我解釋一下因為這個"},{"start":232.83,"end":256.58,"text":"基本上編再多的錢都不夠因為台灣有太多的中小企業如果你全都要靠政府的話是不行的那我們政府能做的第一個是我們分享資訊因為我們這個資安的一個特性就是補助漏洞然後駭客會不斷的找新的漏洞所以這個我們很重要就是說我們當我們發現一個資安的新漏洞所謂的Zero-day vulnerability的時候我們必須盡快的把這個資訊傳給所有的中小企業知道"},{"start":257.32,"end":278.443,"text":"我不認同您剛剛提說編多少錢都不夠那就不要編了嘛不是我們有另外的方法去做不是這個意思嘛您剛剛提到的其實是過去我們沒有這個資安聯防的一個法規法條我們這一次修法通過第四條政府應協助民間處理因應重大措施所以我們就要來編預算嘛"},{"start":279.003,"end":303.559,"text":"一億不夠我們要增加對不對如果一年不夠我們可不可以有一個三年期五年期的計劃不好意思我們這不是在對抗我們是一起在幫助民間幫助台灣的資安好不好所以這個希望我們想這個書發部可不可以就這個資安防護民間企業健全資安防護向行政院來爭取編列中長城的計劃來因應我們一起來努力有沒有機會"},{"start":304.119,"end":316.906,"text":"可不可以 部長 可不可以承諾當然可以 希望委員多支持當然支持啊 這個我們關注嘛 對不對民間一億元要來民間協防 這真的太不夠了那部長我們要提到人力的問題啦治安署176人 治安院230人"},{"start":320.388,"end":334.384,"text":"其實我想對於要協防168萬家中小企業很可能真的不太夠那我們一起來共足資安防線的部分我們想說也許鄰近的韓國就有設全國性漏洞通報獎勵制度"},{"start":335.885,"end":359.562,"text":"那這個鼓勵白帽駭客一起來共同協邦網路安全我們知道啦什麼TEAM5啦還有一些非常厲害啦這個DEFCOR都很強嘛那部長為了彌補資安人力不足的問題抒發部可不可以研議參考韓國的做法設置相關的漏洞通報獎勵的機制啊是 我們也有我們漏洞通報獎勵的機制我們請資安署署長來說明"},{"start":361.295,"end":377.855,"text":"報告委員 我們從今年九月份開始就有定一個有關於百貿化醫科的漏洞內補的計畫我們也有獎金 獎金當然沒有像國外這麼多不過也是有獎勵的這個制度已經上線了嗎 開始了嗎明年九月份把這個計畫公佈那一月份開始來實施"},{"start":378.536,"end":403.394,"text":"高手在民間啦 這裡我幫書發部整理了一下獎金制度希望能夠有一些對齊啦國際企業當然比較高 10萬美金 蘋果到500萬美金那大型跨國的企業有到1萬美金以上國營事業呢 大概5000美金那韓國政府呢 有高達20萬那新加坡政府有高達30萬那我們希望我們在這個部分 因為資產對台灣很重要啦我們真的是不能落後"},{"start":403.894,"end":429.845,"text":"那白帽駭客呢其實還有一些不是錢的有時候是榮譽嘛像這個也有公司啊像Synology啊他做一個公開表揚白帽的這個駭客去協防那當然啊還甚至呢有的政府是說白帽駭客獎勵制度之餘還有法律保護這一點不好意思主席我借一點點時間因為這真的是我們台灣非常重要的治安啦這個我們能不能一起來考量這是比利時的例子"},{"start":430.365,"end":447.094,"text":"免於他們在測試或在幫助的過程裡面反而不小心處罰被起訴部長我在這裡還要先跟你提一個台電公司很好有這個漏洞懸賞但是嚴重最高獎金他說務必提出進入企業內網網段之佐證"},{"start":448.735,"end":464.994,"text":"抱歉啊這根據台灣的刑法這樣子他就違法了他可能會被抓起來這是不是台電變成一個密罐攻擊要攻擊我們白帽還有不能這樣嘛好不好這個能不能稍微跟他們討論一下所以我想本席在此具體的向速發部提出四點建議第一個"},{"start":465.575,"end":480.128,"text":"政府預算雖然沒有辦法跟企業相比可是跟其他國家比獎金可不可以不要落差太大好不好拜託第二個速發部有沒有機會架設專屬的網站具體表揚對國家治安有貢獻的白帽駭客可以叫他國帽駭客嘛對不對"},{"start":482.47,"end":497.248,"text":"第三 現行法律制度之下有很多白帽駭客在幫助的過程會觸犯刑法 妨礙電腦使用罪的風險可不可以請研議相關部還有國營事業啦能不能具體提供一個保護的措施甚至討論修法的可能性"},{"start":497.668,"end":512.808,"text":"最後我想希望能夠速發布邀集治安代表一起演繹啦有沒有其他的特殊獎勵國家的勳章啊 特殊禮遇通關等等啊他們也是守護國安的英雄嘛 對不對虛擬世界也非常重要這個部分我們可不可以一起來努力啊"},{"start":513.288,"end":530.893,"text":"是 委員的建議非常好那個 感謝委員我們會努力往這個方向進發對不起 我還有最後一個問題齁這個電子簽章法修法去年5月40日至今有沒有行政機關向速發部提出要延後適用電子簽章有沒有跟委員報告 沒有沒有 好 OK 謝謝感謝主席 謝謝速發部"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請數發部林宜敬部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長宜敬：葛委員，早安。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好，恭喜部長就任一個月。"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望數發部有不少的legacy，講好的是傳奇、講不好的是挑戰，我想我們就一起來努力。自數發部成立以來，到目前為止，一共只送過2部法案到立法院審查通過，一部是電子簽章法，另外一部是資通安全法，今天想就這兩部法的施行與部長討論。","首先是資安的部分，不知道部長是否已經體驗到，相信你應該知道現在資安領域有非常多嚴峻的挑戰。Trend的Cyber Risk Report提到我們在許多的資安風險指標上名列前茅，雖然我們有非常多的資安人才，而且都是一等一的，但是我們可以看到勒索軟體攻擊的數量在世界排名第四，四十七萬多次，也看到惡意程式偵測數量在世界排名第五，一共偵測攔截1.7億次。","部長，我們資安界有時候會提到木桶理論，木桶的側板最低的部分就是水會漏出來的部分。我們也在今周刊看到2024年到2025年9月之間上市櫃公司發布的資安重訊，資安威脅的總數有116件，受害的除了科技業，還有鋼鐵、塑膠、食品及紡織等等的傳統產業，而且在受害公司當中有很多的數據也很精采。資本額在100億元以下的公司占78%，但是有一半以上的公司資本額則是在10億元以下，表示什麼呢？臺灣168萬家中小企業占我們總體企業總量的98%以上，正在成為駭客眼中的肥羊，數發部一直提出的公私協力、建構全社會資安防禦韌性，不應該只是口號。","這次也非常感謝我們大家一起努力，讓資通安全法修正通過，其中第四條，規定政府應協助民間處理、因應及防範重大資通安全事件，這是本席在此次修法版本中最重要的主張之一。行政院預計在115年3月23日實施，目前還沒有正式上路，數發部現在應該正在進行協助民間提升資安防護的規劃。請問部長，目前數發部打算如何協防民間資安？錢在哪裡？人又在哪裡？115年度預計投入多少預算及人力進行所謂的民間資安聯防？"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝委員的垂詢，中小企業的資安的確是一個很大的問題，通常……"],["葛委員如鈞：這是我的題目，謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：我正要講嘛！"],["葛委員如鈞：我的時間有限，你可不可以就告訴我多少錢、多少人？我的時間有限，多少錢、多少人？115年，謝謝部長。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員，資安法的這條通過其實對整個民間企業的資安防護非常重要……"],["葛委員如鈞：你不要重複我的問題。"],["蔡署長福隆：我們明年的預算編列大概是1億元左右的經費，support整個中小企業與一般企業的部分。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們有這麼多的案件、這麼多的重訊，我們花1億？知道1億元可以在臺北買幾棟房子嗎？這個到底是不是符合……請部長看一下，你們在官網上寫「建構全社會資安防禦韌性」，編1億啊？夠不夠啊？"],["林部長宜敬：不夠。"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！這個對嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：委員，讓我解釋一下，基本上，編再多的錢都不夠，因為臺灣有太多的中小企業，如果全都要靠政府是不行的，政府能做的第一個是我們分享資訊，因為我們資安的特性就是補住漏洞，之後駭客又會不斷地找新的漏洞，所以很重要的是發現一個新的資安漏洞時必須盡快地把資訊傳給所有的中小企業知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長，我不認同你剛剛說的編多少錢都不夠，那就不要編了嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：不是，我們有其他方法去做。"],["葛委員如鈞：不是這個意思嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：對，當然不是這個意思。"],["葛委員如鈞：你剛剛提到的其實是過去我們沒有這個資安聯防的法規法條，現在我們已經修法通過第四條，政府應協助民間處理、因應及防範重大資通安全事件，所以我們就應該要編列預算嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：1億不夠，我們要增加，對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：如果1年不夠，我們可不可以有一個3年期、5年期的計畫？不好意思！這不是在對抗，我們是要一起幫助民間。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：幫助臺灣的資安，好不好？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：數發部可不可以為健全民間企業資安防護向行政院爭取編列中長程的計畫來因應？我們一起來努力，有沒有機會？可不可以，部長？能不能承諾？"],["林部長宜敬：當然可以啊！希望委員多支持！"],["葛委員如鈞：當然支持啊！"],["林部長宜敬：感謝！"],["葛委員如鈞：這個我們關注嘛！編列1億元要與民間協防，真的是太不夠了。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，再來要提到人力的問題，資安署176人、資安院230人，對於要協防168萬家中小企業，很可能真的不太夠。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們一起來共築資安防線的部分，像鄰近的韓國就設了全國性漏洞通報獎勵制度，鼓勵白帽駭客一起共同協防網路安全，我們知道像是TeamT5、DEVCORE等等都很強，部長，為了彌補資安人力不足的問題，數發部可不可以研議參考韓國的作法，設置相關的漏洞通報獎勵機制？"],["林部長宜敬：是，我們也有漏洞通報獎勵機制，請資安署署長來說明。"],["蔡署長福隆：報告委員，我們從今年9月份開始就訂了一個白帽駭客漏洞獵補計畫，雖然我們給的獎金不像國外那麼多，不過也是有獎勵的制度。"],["葛委員如鈞：已經上線了嗎？開始了嗎？"],["蔡署長福隆：9月份公布這項計畫，明年1月份會開始實施。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，高手在民間啊！我幫數發部整理了獎金制度，希望能夠有一些對齊，國際企業當然比較高，在10萬美金以上，蘋果甚至到500萬美金，大型跨國企業也有到1萬美金以上，國營事業大概是5,000美金，韓國政府是高達20萬元，新加坡政府則是高達30萬元，因為資安對臺灣很重要，我們真的是不能落後。再者，其實還有一些白帽駭客為的不是錢，而是譬如榮譽，像Synology對於白帽駭客的協防做了一個公開表揚，甚至有的政府在訂定白帽駭客獎勵制度之餘，還會給予法律保護，關於這一點……不好意思！主席，借用一點點時間，因為資安真的是對我們臺灣非常的重要。","我們能不能一起來考量，這是比利時的例子，為了讓他們免於在測試或幫忙的過程中不小心觸法而被起訴，部長，我在這裡還要先向你提出一點，台電公司很好，提出這個漏洞懸賞，但是要獲得最高獎金，它說務必提出進入企業內網網段之佐證，抱歉啊！根據臺灣的刑法，這樣做就違法了，可能會被抓起來，台電就變成「蜜罐攻擊」要攻擊白帽駭客了？不能這樣做，好不好？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個能不能與他們稍微討論一下？"],["林部長宜敬：沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：本席在此具體向數發部提出四點建議，第一個，政府預算雖然無法與企業相比，但是與其他國家相比，獎金可不可以不要落差太大，好不好？拜託！第二個，數發部有沒有架設專屬的網站，具體表揚對國家資安有貢獻的白帽駭客，甚至可以稱它為國帽駭客，對不對？第三，現行法律制度之下，有很多白帽駭客在幫忙的過程會有觸犯刑法妨害電腦使用罪的風險，可不可以請相關部會及國營事業具體提供一個保護的措施，甚至討論修法的可能性？最後，希望數發部能夠邀集資安代表一起研議，看看是否有其他的特殊獎勵，譬如國家勳章或特殊禮遇通關等等，他們也是守護國安的英雄嘛！對不對？虛擬世界也非常重要啊！我們可不可以針對這個部分一起來努力？"],["林部長宜敬：是，委員的建議非常好，感謝委員，我們會努力往這個方向走。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後一個問題，電子簽章法修法從去年5月施行至今，有沒有行政機關向數發部提出要延後適用電子簽章？有沒有？"],["林署長俊秀：報告委員，沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有，好，OK，謝謝！感謝主席、謝謝數發部！"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請李昆澤召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164172","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db60fdf119899d22e6732e8c280ed77980f92e8362d61d61ef2ab3a0f130147b6495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:07:40 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謝謝主席 本期邀請我們速發部林部長來 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這時候就衍生第二個問題好 第一個 你是有罰則是如果他是懷有目的 那怕你換是再來 你剛剛有說下架是多少時間可以下架對 這也是問題等他下架 傷害造成啊是 沒錯 沒錯所以我才要請問部長那我們蘇華部"},{"start":218.913,"end":232.398,"text":"我知道你最近有一個網路詐騙通報查詢網是是是我看到這個東西 我覺得是假的我有關鍵 可能你這個有忙你大概平均多久可以處理如果你達到必須下架的這個階段"},{"start":234.039,"end":257.006,"text":"我們接到通報以後我們會迅速分案分案以後請那個譬如說跟內政部有關內政部那邊去做判斷是不是關鍵在於說誰判斷是真訊息還是假訊息你這個往成立以來這種虛假不實的AI就是說你到下架平均是多久的時間這個虛假的東西存活多久第二個你有多少是達到"},{"start":258.925,"end":279.354,"text":"就是說比如說移送法辦的這個程度對 我們第一個就是說我們現在大概基本上在24小時之內我們都可以下架理系休息嗎對 大部分的我們通知那個平台以後平台就必須在24小時之內下架這是法律規定的那當然是說我們要"},{"start":280.034,"end":304.822,"text":"麻煩的就是如同委員講的在判定誰來判定是不是詐騙訊息我們現在是委由各個因為你不要常常說什麼言論自由最後就是用言論自由這個棋子來的當然我們保障人權但是有些是很明顯的你的意見是造假的你當然要有一點強制行政哪有不擔風險的"},{"start":305.982,"end":327.04,"text":"是哪有可能對不對但是這個很明顯的比如說這個藍綠都受害了是沒錯沒錯沒錯我剛給你看三個圖第一個賴清德受害嘛是郝龍斌受害嘛是黃國昌得利啦這個余文這個就是這也是執政黨受害嘛他在打那個光電嘛是對不對你這種狀態之下第一個"},{"start":333.157,"end":344.139,"text":"你比較強調說你比較維持社會的一個安定是那如果很明顯其實你很明顯的你是怕你事後必須擔責任那你什麼事情都做不了"},{"start":346.357,"end":372.915,"text":"你剛講到郵輪自由就是這樣嘛我怕他這樣來告我手話簿我手話簿不太穩其實我覺得你很明顯就可以判斷第一個如果他AI沒有標示就直接下架了是我們選舉也是我們選舉的任何的文宣品選舉的話選罷法有規定啊傳單我們都要簽名對啊對啊我簽名都順便退了就廣告這個也是廣告廣告的部分管理絕對沒有問題因為那現在比較麻煩的是民眾自發性的因為我跟妳講一件事就是對"},{"start":374.369,"end":401.282,"text":"本週 本週渴望各政黨協商沒有異議的話就會通過普發一萬的這個相關的法案和預算是 沒錯那可能就 行政院11月就開始發放了是你現在要發這一萬的那詐騙一大堆是那詐騙集團現在是我們看到台灣有溫暖的一面你看到這個有實在是太可惡像產值超人這也有人做東西出來賣 出來騙錢"},{"start":404.844,"end":430.1,"text":"很幸福尤其這個普發疑患普發疑患現在已經有很多人我想詐騙集團一定很興奮這很好的機會 是啊這算對他們來說有一點掉下來的理由這不可以騙我錢 那也對不起自己所以你看現在有很多的針對這種普發疑患的一種虛假詐騙的行為手段是不是請蘇華部這個時候要特別提高警戒"},{"start":430.799,"end":458.654,"text":"是在這方面我們基本上有幾個策略第一個策略是說我們會跟民眾講說所有跟普發現金有關的訊息還有所有的登記這些作業只有在財政部的這個官網上才進行我們不會只有這個地方有那個別的地方不會有而且現在財政部這個普發現金的網站還沒有正式上線所以你所有民眾我們在這邊跟所有民眾講說你現在如果看到說有什麼普發現金的網址什麼的那個基本上都是假的"},{"start":459.574,"end":482.509,"text":"當然民眾也知道要去財政部現在你看這個王子儀就像財政部像不像對 那這個就要講到根本就是財政部的一模一樣對 那我們就講到另外兩個策略第一個就是我們如果發現到有這種假的網站我們接到通報以後我們馬上用DNS RP是一個技術去把它降低流量甚至於封網"},{"start":483.329,"end":498.14,"text":"然後再來我們把一些可能就是假的網站 類似的網站我們都事先去把它封阻了預防性的把它封阻你看我今天幾乎時間都讓給你做解釋謝謝我就是希望說你要知道說現在來即將要普發一萬這個詐騙集團可以說蠢蠢欲動不是啦 已經動了啦 已經動作了像這個是假的網站 網絡一大堆針對普發一萬的這種虛假網站你了解嗎"},{"start":511.893,"end":513.598,"text":"你說你把它撤銷抓到多少"},{"start":516.545,"end":542.299,"text":"但是我們每天都由TitleLink自動的去搜尋網路上面搜尋看有沒有這個我們希望在這段期間蘇澳部應該要特別因為這個是一個很特殊的情況之下確實也已經發生很多的虛假的網址網站已經出來在配方這一方面還有相關的事情另外就是關於AI生成的一些虛假訊息請蘇澳部"},{"start":546.341,"end":555.567,"text":"好好的來把關好不好現在詐騙可以說是全民最痛恨的一件事情民怨之所在啦是好 謝謝你們的鼓勵跟督促 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時7分）謝謝主席。本席邀請數發部林部長。"],["主席：林部長，請。"],["林部長宜敬：林委員，早安。"],["林委員俊憲：部長早。部長，我們今天當然都很關心目前臺灣社會充斥的一些虛假訊息、詐騙等等。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：第一個，由於現代科技進步，現在詐騙的手段、手法真的是越來越可怕，防不勝防，尤其AI的出現更是推高了造假的技術層面。我給你看幾個圖，都是最近很大的新聞，就是用AI製造假新聞。第一個是製造假新聞──賴清德賣臺。第二個，郝龍斌因為在選黨主席，這是他跟一個女性親親的照片。還有一個，我記得之前這個也是，這是幫黃國昌解套，就是黃國昌勒警察的脖子，但那個警察好像被勒得很舒服、很爽快！再來第四個，這個在臺南，也是造假的新聞，什麼光電板、死了很多魚，這些都是AI模擬生成。對一般人而言，這個以假亂真，很像嘛！照得很像吧？"],["林部長宜敬：是，很像。"],["林委員俊憲：像這個情形，你看要怎麼辦？"],["林部長宜敬：基本上對於假訊息的管理跟詐騙訊息的管理，在許多機制上是類似的，照理說我們都可以做，但是假訊息一個很麻煩的地方是在民主國家裡面言論自由範疇的問題，因為有這個問題……抱歉，我稍微說明一下，像AI生成的影片，在本質上有些人認為它就是一種諷刺，用英文講就是parody，像歐美幾百年來有政治漫畫的傳統，所以他們認為是可行的。但是現在最大的問題是什麼？現在這些AI假影片可說是以假亂真，民眾無法判斷，不像以前大家一看到政治漫畫就知道絕對是假的，所以現在的關鍵在於必須標示，照理說，使用AI生成的假影片就應該要標示。首先在法律上，根據打詐專法的規定，如果在廣告中使用到AI生成的影像或影片就必須標示，如果沒有標示的話，政府就可以要求像Meta或YouTube等平台將它下架。再來，根據YouTube或Facebook等平台的平台守則或社群守則規定，民眾自己貼上去的AI影像也必須清楚標示是AI生成的。"],["林委員俊憲：就是必須要有標示是AI創作。"],["林部長宜敬：對。"],["林委員俊憲：如果沒有呢？"],["林部長宜敬：這時候就會衍生第二個問題……"],["林委員俊憲：是不是有罰則？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：如果他是懷有目的，哪會怕你罰呢？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：再來，剛剛你提到下架，多久時間可以下架？"],["林部長宜敬：對，這個也是問題……"],["林委員俊憲：等到它下架，傷害已經造成了。"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯，所以……"],["林委員俊憲：所以我才要請問部長，最近數發部有一個網路詐騙通報查詢網？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：如果我覺得這個東西是假的，可以趕快向你們的網站通報？"],["林部長宜敬：對。"],["林委員俊憲：如果是達到必須下架的程度，你們大概平均多久可以處理？"],["林部長宜敬：我們接到通報之後就會迅速分案，在分案之後，譬如是與內政部相關的就請內政部判斷，關鍵在於由誰判斷是真訊息或假訊息。"],["林委員俊憲：這個網站成立以來，處理虛假不實的AI影像下架平均需要多久的時間？這個虛假的東西存活多久？第二個，有多少案件達到移送法辦的程度？"],["林部長宜敬：第一個，基本上，在24小時之內都可以下架。"],["林委員俊憲：24個小時嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：對，大部分，在我們通知平台之後，平台就必須在24小時之內下架，這是法律規定的。當然誠如委員所言，麻煩在於由誰判定是否為詐騙訊息，我們現在是委由各個……"],["林委員俊憲：你們不要常常說什麼言論自由，罪惡就是從言論自由這個旗子來的，我們當然要保障人權，但是有些很明顯就是造假，你們當然要有強制的作為啊！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：行政哪有不擔風險的、哪有可能，對嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：但是很明顯的，譬如這個對於藍綠都受害。"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：剛剛我給你看了3個圖，賴清德受害、郝龍斌受害、黃國昌得利嘛！這個也是執政黨受害，用光電來做攻擊嘛！對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：在這種狀態之下，第一個，你必須要維持社會的安定。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：如果你害怕事後必須擔責任，這樣就什麼事情都做不了，剛才你說到言論自由就是如此，害怕人家以後會來告數發部，這樣數發部不就要負責了。其實有一些很明顯就能判斷，第一個，如果它用AI沒有標示就直接下架，像我們競選時也是一樣……"],["林部長宜敬：是，選罷法有規定。"],["林委員俊憲：我們的傳單都要簽名，不然就會立刻被退回。"],["林部長宜敬：對啊！這個也是廣告，對於廣告的管理絕對沒有問題，現在比較麻煩的是民眾自發性的……"],["林委員俊憲：我要告訴你一件事，本周各政黨協商無異議的話，可望通過普發一萬元的相關預算，行政院可能在11月就會開始發放。既然現在要發放一萬元，想要進行詐騙的就會有一大堆，這些詐騙集團實在是……我們看到臺灣有溫暖的一面，也看到實在是很可惡的一面，甚至有人假借鏟子超人的名義在騙錢。"],["林部長宜敬：很可惡！"],["林委員俊憲：很可惡！對於即將普發一萬元，我想詐騙集團一定很興奮，這是很好的機會，一個人發一萬元，對他們而言就像是天上掉下來的禮物，不騙點錢怎麼對得起自己。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：現在有很多針對普發一萬元的虛假詐騙行為手段，是不是請數發部在這個時候要特別提高警戒？"],["林部長宜敬：是，我們在這方面基本上有幾個策略，第一個策略，我們會告訴民眾，所有與普發現金有關的訊息及所有的登記作業，只有在財政部的官網上進行、只有這個地方有，其他的地方不會有，而且現在財政部普發現金的網站還沒有正式上線，所以我們在此要告訴所有的民眾，如果現在看到有什麼普發現金的網址之類，基本上都是假的。"],["林委員俊憲：民眾當然也知道要向財政部領，但你看這個網址上就寫了財政部，像不像？"],["林部長宜敬：這個就是仿冒的。"],["林委員俊憲：根本就與財政部一模一樣啊！"],["林部長宜敬：對，我們就要講到另外兩個策略，第一個是我們發現假的網站、我們接到通報之後，立刻就會用DNA的技術去降低它的流量、甚至是封網。再來，我們會事先封阻一些可能的假網站或類似的網站，預防性的予以封阻。"],["林委員俊憲：今天我幾乎把時間都讓給你作解釋了。"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：我就是希望你知道詐騙集團對於即將普發的一萬可以說是蠢蠢欲動。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["林委員俊憲：不是，應該說是已經動作了，像這個就是假的網站，在網路上有一大堆，針對普發一萬元的虛假網站，你們已經抓了多少？"],["林部長宜敬：現在那個……"],["林委員俊憲：你說你們把它撤銷，抓到了多少？人家傳了一大堆給我看。"],["王司長誠明：現在還沒有，但是我們每天都會在網路上自動搜尋，看看有沒有……"],["林委員俊憲：我們希望數發部在這段時間要特別注意，因為這是一個很特殊的情況，確實已經存在許多虛假的網址網站，準備要詐騙普發一萬元相關的事情。另外是關於AI生成的假訊息，請數發部好好的把關，好不好？"],["林部長宜敬：好。"],["林委員俊憲：現在詐騙可以說是全民最痛恨的一件事情，民怨之所在啦！加油啊！"],["林部長宜敬：是，謝謝委員的鼓勵與督促，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林俊憲委員。","本席也再次提醒，其實詐騙是大家共同關心的議題，最重要還是在通路上的防止，包括普發現金一萬元的通路在內，現在的通路就是分為兩個部分，以前會看到所謂的簡訊擴散或釣魚網站的簡訊，現在已經都把這個簡訊予以遮蔽，另外一個就是要配合社群媒體平台，讓這樣的假訊息不要散播出去。我認為讓通路減少，民眾自然而然就不會接收到這些詐騙訊息，詐騙的樣態就會大幅下降。","再來請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164171","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164171","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db69bc28fe247f5a5fd32e8c280ed77980f92e8362d61d61ef2e445050a438e2b795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:54:53 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IG還有其他的平台之外翠在那時候開始成立一個新興的平台這個平台我們也發現它又變成詐騙的溫床所以我們要求納管實名制開始要從源頭來阻絕詐騙的粉專"},{"start":214.116,"end":230.267,"text":"其實我念了這麼多最重要是剛開始的一句話最關心國人最關心的是有沒有成效啊有沒有成效啊所以我看了一下這個數據是從你們數位發展部的這個通報系統找到的"},{"start":231.536,"end":246.195,"text":"不管是8月31號到9月6號到現在9月28號到10月4號這兩個比較其實都是數字遊戲啦部長我不知道你看得懂不懂啊因為就我的解讀啊這個"},{"start":248.226,"end":269.492,"text":"诈骗广告的数量其实没有减少可是在你们的写法里面这两边比较起来8月31号到9月6号的你们告诉我因为诈骗数有上升所以可是到了9月28号的10月4号的这一周的报告里面"},{"start":270.785,"end":292.036,"text":"我看的數字是差不多啦但是呢在你們下面的說明說有下降有下降有下降所以國人的感受深不深以我走訪基層大家對於這些數字沒有感受啊感受不深啊就是說到底政府打詐的成效有好過沒好過部長你自己說咧"},{"start":295.295,"end":308.988,"text":"謝謝首先要感謝委員過去這一年多以來的督促與支持事實上剛剛委員講的那些各方面的事情我們其實在我們一起的努力之下應該都有做到大部分都已經做到了"},{"start":309.648,"end":330.194,"text":"那我想一定會有一些成效那關於這個報告的確這個我們這樣子顯示因為都是跟上一週比較週跟週比較這個比較不清楚那我們之前之所以沒辦法跟去年我們通常是說那個跟去年同一時期比較那一個原因就是因為網站通報查詢網上線剛好到今年的9月30號剛好滿一週年"},{"start":331.374,"end":355.901,"text":"所以接下來我們其實應該是可以改變我們的報告方式就是我們跟去年同一個時期這樣比這樣比較長時間的去比可能對國人的感覺會比較明顯那依照我們這邊的統計數字來講的話我們現在跟一年前來比的話應該已經是大幅下降了是 所以這個地方我們在報告的形式上我們會在改善當然我們實際上的作為也要改善"},{"start":356.501,"end":382.508,"text":"第一個就數字上來看讓人家無感那我們怎麼改進我們怎麼跟國人報告讓國人有感說政府的打詐是有成效的這第一個我覺得表述的方式要讓人有感第二個這個數字的解讀我覺得很重要因為我們不管是跟一年前比較或者是跟上個月比較或者是跟上個禮拜比較我覺得"},{"start":383.309,"end":387.064,"text":"比较是一种手法但是更重要的是要让"},{"start":388.055,"end":414.011,"text":"人民有感覺說這個打炸是有成效的不然我們在坊間現在我看每個委員關心的也是速發部隊打炸的成效到底有沒有大家都還是一個問號有啦 那個委員我們現在在那個網路上在Facebook上很少在看到有仿冒黃仁勳那個張忠謀還有那個謝金河這個應該都已經很少見了嘛手法改變啦是啊 沒錯"},{"start":415.293,"end":422.93,"text":"只是手法改變我們也要跟著與時俱進來打詐嘛對不對如果你認為有的話那我就在接下來下一頁"},{"start":424.746,"end":447.04,"text":"行政院政府的公共政策網路參與平台現在就有一個提案制定數位打造法一起打造更安全的網路環境然後到目前為止已經超過8000個公民連署我跟你講這個之所以重要是在於他8月28號檢核這個提案是可以的到8月29號就"},{"start":449.281,"end":464.361,"text":"通过达到门槛那这个联署门槛是多少五千所以他一天之内就五千人以上五千个公民联署通过门槛到现在已经超过八千个公民复役"},{"start":466.567,"end":482.33,"text":"部長你說我們有成效那我們要讓人民有感你也認為國人應該有感可是我們看到在這樣子的一個政府的公共政策的網路參與平台裡面大家還是認為應該再制定一個數位打炸法"},{"start":484.81,"end":504.42,"text":"而且連署的速度這麼快那你的立場呢 速發部的立場呢其實我想委員也非常清楚這個基本上數位打詐法這個概念是非常好的但是基本上我們之前的那個打詐專法裡面都已經包含了各種那個關於數位打詐的各種法條"},{"start":505.1,"end":527.981,"text":"我們都已經做了譬如說我們裡面有那個廣告實名制這個我們不但已經通過這個法條而且我們確實實施了現在在Facebook在Line在Google上面的所有廣告都已經實施這個實名制而且這個實名制不但要揭露那個出資人也要揭露這個廣告的受益人然後再來我們在打造專法裡面我們規定說當政府通知這些平台要把這個詐騙"},{"start":529.162,"end":544.849,"text":"的訊息或廣告下架的時候他們必須在24小時之內執行完成這個也是一樣就是不但法律已經通過而且我們都已經執行都已經做到了部長法律的通過是一件事很好那有執行是一件事很好"},{"start":545.529,"end":570.255,"text":"但是最重要的是防不勝防為什麼國人對於政府的打炸的成效還有疑慮或是有問號那感受的問題我們又如何的去讓國人知道說我們是真的盡心盡力用力在防止在打炸我覺得這個部分是你要去思考因為下一頁不是只有這個網路平台而已"},{"start":571.215,"end":588,"text":"你看到TRADE我在要求很多委員跟我的要求之下你9月15號納管上路那我就開始按照時間序來講你從7月3號公告納管9月15號開始正式實施到現在你自己看這是你們的數字"},{"start":589.708,"end":606.721,"text":"9月到10月通報並確認為詐騙廣告跟訊息數多查18000多件變成第三大被通報的平台我們當然也知道說你們有做你們有資安院有AI系統在掃描"},{"start":608.325,"end":622.494,"text":"那我就請教一下那催你們有沒有在做有沒有在做防堵有沒有在做掃描尋找那些可能是詐騙的廣告有沒有去做攔截"},{"start":623.516,"end":653.119,"text":"是 這我們一直都有做事實上Thread雖然之前我們沒有正式納管但是其實我們一直有在做那個Thread上面的詐騙訊息的巡檢那我們發現詐騙訊息的話我們也通知ThreadThread當然它背後就是Meta這個事實上我們都一直有在做那我們現在所以正式納管是因為我們打詐專法是規定的是廣告那Thread在之前在我們打詐專法剛通過的時候它並沒有提供廣告的功能那它在今年的"},{"start":654.06,"end":681.36,"text":"我上次有提醒你啊當然當然當然這個我們也注意到了他開始提供廣告的這個功能以後那我們就依照這個打詐專法必須把它正式納管那我們現在也正式納管那事實上也必須跟委員報告就是說在正式納管之前我們就已經開始做這個在Thread上面的這個那個掃描還有偵測還有通報那Thread那邊事實上也都有配合在把一些詐騙的訊息把它下架下來"},{"start":682.47,"end":696.973,"text":"那這個關於感覺的方面現在實際上我們大家也注意到最近我們一些詐騙很多都已經從線上轉為線下或者是線上線下的虛實整合這個我們很不願意這樣講但是事實上就是也是"},{"start":697.734,"end":721.444,"text":"那個因為我們打詐在線上我們速發不發那個負責的線上打詐有一定的成效所以這個詐騙集團他不斷的流竄他發現說線上純線上的詐騙不行的時候他就轉為線上線下的結合那這個方面我們會再跟那個內政部的警政署我們密切合作我們要一定要一起合作防守不管他是線上線下或者線上線下聯合我們一定要把這個詐騙堵住"},{"start":722.244,"end":746.793,"text":"那是不是請你會後給我一個現在各網路平台你們納管之後的一個防止詐騙跟打詐的一個成效不僅僅是數字我也希望能夠有更進一步的一個報告可以讓國人知道好不好給我書面報告我覺得成效是最重要的讓人民有感是最重要的讓人民不要被詐騙更是重中之重"},{"start":747.421,"end":756.784,"text":"非常謝謝委員的督促跟鼓勵 謝謝好 請在速發部請再提供給何委員以及我們本委會的委員辦公室這個打炸的一個成效 好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時54分）謝謝洪召委。請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：何委員早安。"],["何委員欣純：首先要恭喜部長，你是從次長升任為部長，我要這樣子講，要恭喜！"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：但是我想最重要的是國人最關心的詐騙問題，剛剛在你的業務報告裡面也有提到這個也是我們的業務重點。"],["林部長宜敬：是，當然。"],["何委員欣純：我們也投入了、編列了很多預算資源。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：疫情之後，就是數位化年代裡面詐騙開始盛行的時候，我就開始從2023年5月、2024年3月、2024年6月、2024年10月、2024年11月、2025年4月、2025年6月，每一個會期一定都緊追著，不管是修法、提案跟質詢。我們的打詐成效如何？在2023年5月，部長也知道那時候我們有提案修正打詐三法，不管是個資法、刑法等等。"],["林部長宜敬：非常感謝。"],["何委員欣純：我們都有提高罰責。2024年3月那時候有一個電子簽章的修法，我記得那個修法除了我們共同交換意見之外，電子簽章法也確實修正了。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：還有我們當時大力宣傳所謂的專屬簡訊碼，現在我看到中央跟地方很多單位也都在用政府專屬的簡訊碼。","2024年6月，當時我們要求納管所謂的第三方支付，因為那時候太多詐騙集團運用第三方支付做為洗錢也好或者支付也好等等等的詐騙工具，所以那時候我們有要求要落實源頭管理，第三方支付現在也正式的有管理了，我們接著要問的是管理的成效，等一下回答我。","2024年10月，當時發現臺中的詐騙數是全國最高，我也要求要跨部會正視，數發部要嚴防，因為那時候已經開學了，每次開學都有學生被騙，還有各式各樣新型的詐騙手法。","2024年11月，我們要求全面落實廣告實名制，這個部分雖然開始了，我當時認為所有平臺應該要全面上路。","2025年4月，國人的LINE帳號被盜用得非常猖狂，很多名人也被盜用，甚至被詐騙，所以我們也希望數發部可以協助及時停號。","2025年6月，又來了！除了Meta、FB、IG等平臺之外，Threads在那時候開始成立一個新興的平臺，我們也發現這個平臺又變成詐騙的溫床，所以我們要求要納管實名制，開始從源頭阻絕詐騙的粉專。","其實我唸了這麼多，最重要的是剛開始的第一句話，國人最關心的是有沒有成效？有沒有成效啊？我看了一下，這個數據是從你們數位發展部的通報系統找到的。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：不管是8月31號至9月6號，或是9月28號至10月4號，這兩個其實都是數字遊戲啦，部長，我不知道你看了懂不懂，因為就我的解讀，詐騙廣告的數量其實沒有減少，可是在你們的寫法裡面，這兩邊比較起來，8月31號至9月6號，你會告訴我因為詐騙數有上升，所以blah blah blah，可是到了9月28號至10月4號這一週的報告裡面，我看的數字是差不多，但是在你們下面的說明是有下降、有下降、有下降，所以國人的感受深不深？以我走訪基層，大家對於這些數字並沒有感受，感受不深！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：也就是說，到底政府打詐的成效有效果還是沒效果？部長，你自己說呢？"],["林部長宜敬：首先要感謝委員過去這一年多以來的督促與支持，事實上剛才委員講的各方面事情，其實在我們一起努力之下應該大部分都已經做到了，我想一定會有一些成效。","關於這個報告，的確我們這樣子顯示，因為都是跟上一週比較，是週跟週比較，這個比較不清楚，我們之前之所以沒辦法跟去年相比，因為通常都是跟去年同一時期比較，一個原因就是因為網詐通報查詢網上線到今年的9月30號剛好滿一週年。所以接下來我們其實應該是可以改變我們的報告方式，那就是跟去年同一時期相比，這樣比較長時間的去比，可能國人的感覺會比較明顯。依照我們這邊的統計數字來講，現在跟一年前來比的話應該已經是大幅下降了。所以這個地方，在報告的形式上我們會再改善，當然我們實際上的作為也要改善。"],["何委員欣純：對，第一個，就數字上來看，讓人家無感！那我們怎麼改進？我們怎麼跟國人報告，讓國人有感政府的打詐是有成效的？這是第一個，我覺得表述的方式要讓人有感。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，數字的解讀我覺得很重要，因為我們不管是跟一年前比較或者是跟上個月比較，或者是跟上個禮拜比較，我覺得比較是一種手法，但是更重要的是要讓人民有感覺打詐是有成效的！"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：不然在坊間，現在我看每個委員關心的也是數發部對於打詐到底有沒有成效？大家都還是一個問號！"],["林部長宜敬：有啦！委員，我們現在在網路上、在Facebook上很少再看到有仿冒黃仁勳、張忠謀、謝金河了，這個應該都已經很少見了嘛！"],["何委員欣純：手法改變啦！"],["林部長宜敬：是啊！沒錯啊！"],["何委員欣純：一樣都是詐騙，只是手法改變啊！那我們也要跟著與時俱進來打詐嘛！對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：如果你認為有的話，我就再接下來，行政院政府公共政策網路參與平臺現在就有一個提案：制定數位打詐法，一起打造更安全的網路環境！到目前為止已經超過8,000個公民連署，我跟你講，這個之所以重要是在於8月28號檢核這個提案是可以的，到8月29號連署就通過，也就是達到門檻，而這個連署門檻是多少？5,000！對吧！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以一天之內就有5,000個公民連署通過門檻，到現在已經超過8,000個公民附議。部長，你說我們有成效，那我們要讓人民有感，你也認為國人應該有感，可是我們看到在一個這樣子的政府公共政策網路參與平臺裡面，大家還是認為應該再制定一個數位打詐法，而且連署的速度這麼快，那你的立場呢？數發部的立場呢？針對這個提案。"],["林部長宜敬：我想委員也非常清楚，基本上數位打詐法這個概念是非常好的，但是我們之前的打詐專法裡面都已經包含關於數位打詐的各種法條，我們都已經做了，譬如說裡面有廣告實名制，這個不但已經通過這個法條，而且我們確實實施了，現在在Facebook、在LINE、在Google上面的所有廣告都已經實施實名制，而且這個實名制不但要揭露出資人，也要揭露廣告的受益人。再來，我們在打詐專法裡面規定，當政府通知這些平臺要把詐騙訊息或廣告下架的時候，他們必須在24小時之內執行完成，這個也是一樣，就是不但法律已經通過，而且我們都已經執行、都已經做到了。"],["何委員欣純：部長，法律有通過是一件事，很好！有執行是一件事，很好！但是最重要的是防不勝防，為什麼國人對於政府打詐的成效還有疑慮或是有問號？感受的問題我們又如何去讓國人知道我們是真的盡心盡力、用力在防止、在打詐？我覺得這個部分你要去思考。"],["林部長宜敬：當然、當然！"],["何委員欣純：因為不是只有網路平臺而已，你看Threads，在很多委員跟我的要求之下，你在9月15號納管上路。我就開始按照時間序來講，你從7月3號公告要納管，9月15號開始正式實施，到現在，你自己看，這是你們的數字，9月到10月通報並確認為詐騙廣告跟訊息數多達一萬八千多件，Threads變成第三大被通報的平臺。我們當然也知道你們有做，你們有資安院、有AI系統在掃描，我就請教一下，Threads你們有沒有在做？有沒有在做防堵？有沒有在掃描、尋找那些可能是詐騙的廣告？有沒有去攔截？"],["林部長宜敬：是，這我們一直都有做，事實上，Threads雖然之前我們沒有正式納管，但是其實我們一直有在做Threads上面的詐騙訊息巡檢，我們發現詐騙訊息的話，我們也通知了Threads，Threads背後就是Meta，事實上這個我們都一直有在做。我們現在之所以正式納管，是因為打詐專法規定的是廣告，Threads在之前我們打詐專法剛通過的時候並沒有提供廣告的功能，它是在今年3月……"],["何委員欣純：它現在有囉！"],["林部長宜敬：它在3月……"],["何委員欣純：對啊！我上次有提醒你啊！"],["林部長宜敬：是，當然、當然，這個我們也注意到了，它開始提供廣告的功能以後，我們就依照打詐專法，必須把它正式納管，我們現在也正式納管了。事實上也必須跟委員報告，在正式納管之前我們就已經開始在Threads上面掃描、偵測，還有通報，Threads那邊也都有配合把一些詐騙訊息下架下來。"],["何委員欣純：好。"],["林部長宜敬：關於感覺方面，其實我們也注意到最近很多詐騙都已經從線上轉為線下，或者是線上、線下的虛實整合，我們很不願意這樣講，但是事實上因為我們數發部負責的線上打詐有一定成效，所以詐騙集團不斷流竄，發現純線上詐騙不行的時候就轉為線上、線下的結合，針對這個方面，我們會再跟內政部警政署密切合作，我們一定要一起合作防守，不管它是線上、線下，或者線上線下聯合，我們一定要把詐騙堵住。"],["何委員欣純：是不是請你會後給我現在各網路平臺在你們納管之後防止詐騙跟打詐的成效，不僅僅是數字，我也希望能夠有更進一步的一個報告可以讓國人知道，好不好？給我書面報告。"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得成效是最重要的，讓人民有感是最重要的，讓人民不要被詐騙更是重中之重！"],["林部長宜敬：非常謝謝委員的督促跟鼓勵，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請數發部再提供給何委員，以及本委員會委員辦公室關於打詐的成效，好不好？","接下來請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164170","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164170","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6312156623b229e2632e8c280ed77980f92e8362d61d61ef2e445050a438e2b795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:28:57 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謝謝主席有請我們數位部我們林部長 林部長請"},{"start":13.15,"end":37.516,"text":"國務委員 早安部長好你們現在是要數位部還是書發部 簡稱我們現在叫數位發展部 簡稱書發部因為我們要強調發展就是現在要全稱就對了沒有 我們是書發部 因為數位的話但是其實這都不重要 內容物比較重要首先我們直接看一下這有件事情 我說你好或者你自己說你好都不太客觀"},{"start":38.436,"end":62.37,"text":"那事實上在大概這過去19年20年來從2005年開始在日本早稻田大學對於國際數位政府的開始有一個評比有個評比特別有注意到數位這個我們事務發布在2002年8月27號成立8月我記得那時候成立的時候我正好在交通委員會"},{"start":63.351,"end":85.106,"text":"哇 其實我是很驚豔也很驚嚇不到三個月之後就看到我們這個當時的速發部舉行記者會啊真的有慶功宴等級啊所以我們得到了早稻農研大學當年2022年社會政府評比咧全台灣打國際盃啊全球第九名"},{"start":86.414,"end":110.897,"text":"全球第九名啊 這不簡單啊我們蘇維布萊不光是在媒體開記者會也在內部做公告嘛那我們看看公告主要的一個內容他評比的這個部分對台灣的成績呢第一個 台灣得到當時評比的國際全球的第九名不簡單啦 不簡單第二個呢 在亞洲評比呢我們鄰居嘛 因為環境比較類似嘛在亞洲第三名啊"},{"start":112.117,"end":130.164,"text":"那其中十個指標有十項指標他評比的成績有十項指標十項指標我們當時就有五項他一半五項能夠擠進前十但是其實我們聽到這個包括他真的覺得很驚艷但是也很驚嚇的原因就是說"},{"start":131.104,"end":147.832,"text":"哇成立兩個月就能夠做這麼多事嗎那所以我們是你覺得這個當時的成績你還沒來啦那你知道這件事情的話也是一個驕傲吧應該是但是這種評比因為雖然看起來很客觀但是評比的項目這種"},{"start":149.353,"end":173.324,"text":"這種事情其實也是可以說是蠻主觀的因為看他評比的項目是什麼當天的一個結論因為背景就是當年的速發部成立兩個多月但是當天的記者會的一個結論你們自己說自己就是顯見台灣基礎環境設備數位為民服務跟我們數位政府轉型努力有成"},{"start":174.404,"end":201.1,"text":"效果著重這是當天的一個基礎那對我來講OK 數位部才剛成立它的元年那我相信在這麼紮實的基礎啊你知道嗎當地基打好那樓層可以蓋得很穩很高那接下來你們元年一年二年大樓慢慢蓋好那現在到底蓋得怎麼樣經歷唐鳳部長一年九個月跟我們黃部長一年四個月"},{"start":202.1,"end":218.098,"text":"你才剛上任我們再談一些不好意思你擔任這個首長過去跟未來你都必須要去做負責兼顧來做說明那在這樣的一個基礎之下到底蓋了幾年的結果如何滿不滿意"},{"start":220.319,"end":239.199,"text":"坦白的跟委員報告其實當初數位發展部成立的時候有三個主要的任務第一個就是數位產業所以我們有數位產業署第二個是資安任性所以我們有資安署跟任性司然後再來是數位政府所以我們有像資料司 像數位政府司等等可是我們數位發展部一成立以後"},{"start":240.6,"end":241.261,"text":"Oh my god"},{"start":270.262,"end":290.11,"text":"因為我們這麼多的委員通過你的預算你每年的預算數位政府的照擺每年增加好不好刪掉了也幫你大致上補回去了然後你告訴我抱歉這份有錢但是我們的人力心力沒有放在這上面我希望你這樣的解釋你自己可以理解但是民眾不理解我們覺得2022年的時候跟你無關但我們覺得基礎很踏實"},{"start":296.132,"end":321.081,"text":"在這個基礎之下經過了一年兩年成就如何呢我們覺得應該大樓慢慢穩穩的上上蓋應該業績蒸蒸日上確實我也看到你們做到了從2018年我們有那當時國安法宣布也是第9名到你們2022年宣布第9名就是10米以內你們才公告了第9名之後當年數位部成立"},{"start":322.372,"end":343.637,"text":"成了第一年在良好的基礎之下打拼努力單獨預算幾百億給你們了拼了一年蒸蒸日上數字往上走退了六名再拼第一年還這個人還沒有著急腳步沒站穩到了去年2024年啊第20名"},{"start":349.574,"end":369.811,"text":"你的感覺怎麼樣 你說說看因為第20名的部分你有參與部分那是為什麼你5月20號跟黃部長一起來的嘛 你是次長我不要講你要負責啦但你應該了解2024年由蒸蒸日上到這麼好的成績從第9名退不到第20名主要原因是什麼"},{"start":371.369,"end":392.596,"text":"如同我剛剛在跟委員說明的這個我本身我也認為說這個地方我們的投入的那個心力不夠所以我剛剛在稍早我在那個業務報告裡面我講說我跟除了延續之前我們黃部長的三大三支箭之外我們今年也會把這個數位政府納入我們的主要施政目標"},{"start":393.456,"end":409.27,"text":"好 這個林部長你說得這麼老實就是黃部長跟唐翁部長這方面數位政府做得不夠好大概邏輯就是這樣因為那你希望你能夠做得更好為什麼呢2022年你們講的基礎這麼好"},{"start":412.313,"end":428.043,"text":"第九名 大家希望能夠繼續的第八名 第七名 能夠穩健的成長我們因為站在各部會的這種資安單位 數位單位都可以拿下第九名"},{"start":430.625,"end":444.769,"text":"2018年數位部都還沒成立嘛他也拿到第九名大家當然期待你有一個部長這麼多部會這麼多廳在這裡你的成績大家這樣期待是基本的啦你要越來越好結果呢在這麼好的基礎之下你應該可以重重隆隆你知道嗎游刃有餘啊結果你搞了兩年你弄到連滾帶爬"},{"start":455.41,"end":464.663,"text":"我覺得在這樣的下去 這個趨勢12月要公布2025的齁我不要說把你們看衰了齁2025你大概預估怎麼樣"},{"start":466.634,"end":491.339,"text":"還蠻想這種預估這是陷阱題吧我講太低也不行啊對不對我們衛生預算在炒這邊炒了半年價我覺得很衰耶也被你搞一個大罷免什麼我現在在問你說錢要怎麼用拿到手上就說抱歉啦以前錢都編了這部分做得不好那今年會不會做得很好不清楚我覺得因為畢竟我們這個質詢大家都在聽啦是"},{"start":494.74,"end":516.262,"text":"那我們再看看 國際的 亞洲的排序好吧 就近的 我們鄰居要檢討一下10月10號 也不才過幾天嘛我們總統 經濟生產率是小龍之冠嘛 那種驕傲 驕傲真的才 大家感覺到驕傲嘛結果 我們是IT之國 科技之島"},{"start":518.177,"end":539.266,"text":"我們從2020到2024我告訴你 我們的鄰居 新加坡變第一名 第四名變第一名南韓第七名變第五名日本第九名到成長日本第十名成長日本沒有成長那泰國從22名到第18名我跟你講"},{"start":541.229,"end":560.14,"text":"台灣從第九名跌了十一名到第二十名這是我們亞洲的一個類似環境的鄰居我覺得這個部分值得檢討而且很不應該如果再這樣的下去我覺得數位發展部在我的心中變成數位大退部"},{"start":561.161,"end":585.727,"text":"每次看到你這樣一個成績在我們講的時候是整篇什麼都好然後呢到時候這到底是什麼問題再問你數位政府有這麼多類別他評比十大指標你知道是哪十大指標嗎坦白講我也不知道我早上看才知道但是你要參加一個評比如果你都不知道我跟你講應該是我們主動參加是他們把我們抓去參加的吧"},{"start":586.267,"end":605.366,"text":"所以你其實也不願意參加所以你也不參加不知道人家跑的是百米還是馬拉松比賽我們整個部隊我們的員工其實根本沒有準備我的天啊我是覺得這樣的部長因為你才剛接一個多月今天我們談這件事我覺得是期待"},{"start":606.167,"end":624.481,"text":"多於苛責我也覺得你們要針對於評比的部分你說你無所謂但是我們又是地球村你不看其他國家都在看讓台灣在這種亞洲四小龍之冠這種驕傲還沒有來其他人你看天天退步"},{"start":626.022,"end":642.653,"text":"我跟你講2022年當年的交第九名基礎打好了其中有五項指標進入前十名就是前面五項第一個是現象育有與浮沫第二個是基礎建設那我都不要念了到2023年"},{"start":645.474,"end":653.462,"text":"四項不見了當年的優勢四個不見了所謂不見就沒有排到前十名了不知道到哪一名去了請問那個政府資訊長的活躍度跟參加國際會議有關嗎"},{"start":659.333,"end":680.923,"text":"這裡第四項政府資訊長活躍度是指的是什麼事情這個好像很抽象是跟參加國際會議有關還是這個很抽象所以你要問是不是要了解找到田因為我沒有去那邊念過書因為我們現在預算那個出國預算大幅被刪減所以這可能會有一些影響大幅刪減但是有一件小問題2024年預算刪減了嗎"},{"start":685.031,"end":692.874,"text":"我在講你2024年的成績2024年升級了沒有不知道你不要學這壞的啦我們現在評比的成績只到去年2024年今年2025年有三預算的問題你再跟我扯這個這樣就沒有意思了我就覺得有點莫名其妙了我站好沒有三預算之下"},{"start":708.479,"end":724.174,"text":"你看你2024年所有當時兩年的優勢全部跳到10名以外最後我只舉一個例子什麼叫優勢那你說這中間網路硬體網路硬體的一個評比我們本來剛剛講的我們本來是優勢"},{"start":726.917,"end":752.014,"text":"第二項第五名耶國際第五名啊怎麼會不見呢是不是因為4G轉5G這種出了問題我不知道我覺得你們要去找出問題有些搞不好是NCC的有些是行政院的那都不一定最後我要拜託你啦是你今年3月24號才說的是各位所有的國民恭喜大家我們數位部啊我的一政府已經幫大家結合2700項的服務一戰時這記者會來你開的"},{"start":757.177,"end":784.396,"text":"大家都很開心啊 終於可以點一下一個窗口一次購主結果呢 審計部的今年的一個資料出來了 我也請教你到4月23號你這點進去啊 根本連接不到連接錯誤 或者連接失效的你所謂的變名措施就是剛剛找到點的一個你的名字不見了數位的一個服務不見了你們這個要不要改善啊要不要改善"},{"start":785.317,"end":800.815,"text":"報告委員因為審計部的報告是說我們有一半的這個服務它不是線上的那因為其實我們把線上的跟零貴的都一起放在這個網站讓所有的同仁所有的那個民眾都可以看到線上的跟這個零貴的"},{"start":801.235,"end":829.044,"text":"至於說有一些是那個連結不到的因為省醫部他的那個連結方式你們這個這種科技技術應該每一天可以去檢查嘛哪些都不見了跳出來HDP什麼什麼404還什麼我忘了反正就這樣這個怎麼會發生這樣的一個事情尤其是我們當時的次長接任部長之後他開的記者會民眾只要有一個網站何況如果有很多網站都這樣了什麼現在都改善完畢了嗎"},{"start":829.684,"end":830.285,"text":"好啦 我跟你講齁"},{"start":852.971,"end":868.524,"text":"網頁連結錯誤失效從你這邊超連結過去就是你沒有檢查好就不對這趕快去改善如果是書面人家不方便是另外一回事所以我覺得這個部分我們希望能夠積極改善好不好 部長好沒問題我們會積極改善好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時28分）謝謝主席，請數位部林部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長宜敬：委員早安。"],["魯委員明哲：部長好。你們現在的簡稱是數位部還是數發部？"],["林部長宜敬：我們現在叫數位發展部，簡稱數發部，因為我們要強調發展。"],["魯委員明哲：現在要全稱就對了？"],["林部長宜敬：沒有，我們是數發部。因為數位……"],["魯委員明哲：其實這些都不重要，內容物比較重要。首先我們看一下，有些事情本席說你們好，或者你們自己說自己好，其實都不太客觀。過去這19年、20年來，也就是從2005年開始，日本早稻田大學對於國際數位政府開始做評比，數發部在2022年8月27日成立，記得成立的時候，本席正好在交通委員會。","哇！其實本席是很驚豔，也很驚嚇，成立不到三個月，就看到當時的數發部舉行記者會，而且還是慶功宴等級的，說我們得到早稻田大學2022年數位政府評比全球第9名，這是臺灣打國際盃的評比，不簡單啊！數位部不光是在媒體開記者會，也在內部公告。","我們看一下公告的主要內容，就是這個評比的臺灣成績，第一個，臺灣得到當時評比的全球第9名，不簡單啦！第二個，在亞洲的評比，因為我們是鄰居，環境比較類似，在亞洲是第3名。評比有十項指標，我們有五項擠進前10名。當時我們聽到這個消息真的覺得很驚豔，但是也很驚嚇，因為才成立兩個月就能夠做這麼多事嗎？你覺得當時這個成績如何？那時你還沒上任啦！你知道這件事情之後，也覺得這是一個驕傲吧？"],["林部長宜敬：應該是啦！這種評比雖然看起來很客觀，但是評比的項目其實也可以說滿主觀的，因為要看評比的項目是什麼。"],["魯委員明哲：因為當時的背景是數發部才成立兩個多月，但是當天記者會的結論，這是你們自己說的，顯見臺灣基礎環境設備、數位為民服務和數位政府轉型有成，效果卓著，這是當天的結論。對本席來說，數位部才剛成立，當年是成立元年，本席相信在這麼扎實的基礎之下，只要地基打得好，樓層就可以蓋得很穩、很高，接下來你們經過元年、一年、二年的努力，這個大樓會慢慢蓋好，現在到底蓋得怎麼樣？","經歷唐鳳部長的一年九個月、黃部長的一年四個月，雖然你才剛上任，但是不好意思，因為你現在擔任首長，所以過去和未來你都必須負責兼顧、說明，在這樣的基礎之下，這棟大樓已經蓋了幾年，結果如何？滿不滿意？"],["林部長宜敬：坦白向委員報告，其實當初數位發展部成立的時候有三個主要任務，第一個就是數位產業，所以我們有數位產業署。第二是資安韌性，所以我們有資安署和韌性司，再來是數位政府，所以我們有資料司、數位政府司等等。可是數位發展部一成立以後就發生一件事情，是什麼？詐騙橫行，所以數發部把第三個任務，就是本來應該放在數位政府方面的很多能量和資源都拿去打詐了。現在我們在打詐方面算是有初步成果，不敢吹牛說已經都禁絕，但是有一些成果以後，接下來我們希望把一些資源和能量移回去做數位政府的部分。"],["魯委員明哲：天啊！這麼多委員通過你們的預算，而且你們在數位政府這部分的預算是每一年增加，刪掉的部分也大致幫你們補回去了，但是你告訴本席，抱歉，雖然這部分有錢，但是我們的人力、心力沒有放在這上面，對於你的解釋，你們自己能夠理解，但是民眾不理解。2022年的事雖然和你無關，但我們覺得當時的基礎很扎實，在這個基礎之下，在經過一年、兩年之後，成就如何呢？","我們覺得這棟大樓應該是慢慢的、穩穩的向上蓋，業績應該蒸蒸日上，這點也確實有看到，你們做到了。2018年，當時國發會有宣布，是第9名，2022年也是第9名，因為十名內你們才會公告。達到第9名的評比成績之後，當年數位部成立，在良好的基礎之下繼續打拼努力，還單獨給你們幾百億元預算，你們也拼了一年，本該業績蒸蒸日上，排名數字應該也要往上走，但是卻退了六名。","第一年可以說人還沒有招齊，腳步還沒站穩，但是到了去年（2024年）卻退到第20名，你覺得怎麼樣？因為第20名這個成績，你有參與部分，為什麼？因為你是5月20日和黃部長一起上任的嘛！當時你是次長。本席不是要你負責，但你應該了解，為什麼原本應該是蒸蒸日上，也擁有這麼好的成績，2024年卻從第9名退步到第20名，主要原因是什麼？"],["林部長宜敬：如同我剛剛向委員說明的，我本身也認為這個部分投入的心力不夠，所以稍早我做業務報告時也說了，除了延續之前黃部長的三支箭之外，我們今年也會把數位政府納入主要施政目標。"],["魯委員明哲：林部長很老實，就是黃部長和唐鳳部長在數位政府這方面做得不夠好，邏輯大概就是這樣，希望你能夠做得更好。為什麼呢？2022年的基礎這麼好，評比是第9名，大家希望能夠繼續往第8名、第7名穩健成長，因為散在各部會的資安單位、數位單位都可以拿下第9名，2018年的情況就是這樣嘛！","因為2018年數位部還沒成立，當時就拿到第9名啊！所以大家當然會期待部長和在場這麼多同仁也能有這樣的成績，因為這是基本的啦！你們應該要越來越好。結果呢？在這麼好的基礎之下，你們本應該從從容容、游刃有餘的，你知道嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["魯委員明哲：結果你們搞了兩年，卻弄到連滾帶爬。本席覺得再這樣下去，以這個趨勢來看，12月就要公布2025年的評比成績了，不要說我看衰你們，2025年的評比，你們預估會怎麼樣？"],["林部長宜敬：坦白說這種預估是陷阱題吧！我說得太低也不行啊！對不對？"],["魯委員明哲：哇塞！我們因為預算吵了半天架，本席覺得很倒楣，因為還被提出大罷免。現在本席問你錢要怎麼用？結果卻是錢拿到手之後就說抱歉，以前錢都編了，但是這部分做得不好，至於今年會不會做好？不清楚！部長，畢竟大家都在聽我們的答詢啦！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["魯委員明哲：我們再看看亞洲的排序，好不好？看看我們鄰居的成績，我們也檢討一下。10月10日才過去幾天，總統說我們的經濟成長率是四小龍之冠，大家也感到驕傲。我們是IT之國、科技之島，從2020年到2024年，我們的鄰居新加坡從第4名變第1名，南韓從第7名變第5名，日本沒有成長，泰國從第22名到第18名，但是臺灣從第9名跌到第20名，退步11名。","這些國家都是我們在亞洲這個類似環境的鄰居，本席覺得這個部分值得檢討，而且很不應該，如果再這樣下去，數位發展部在本席的心中會變成數位大退步。每次看到你們這樣的成績，一開始什麼都說得很好，最後卻不是這樣，到底是什麼問題？再問你，數位政府有這麼多類別，他們評比有十大指標，你知道是哪十大指標嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：報告委員……"],["魯委員明哲：坦白說本席也不知道，是早上看到資料才知道。但是你們要參加一個評比，如果連你們都不知道的話，本席告訴你……"],["林部長宜敬：應該不是我們主動參加，是他們把我們抓去參加的吧！"],["魯委員明哲：所以其實你們也不願意參加？"],["林部長宜敬：我沒有說不願意參加。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你也不知道人家跑的是百米還是馬拉松比賽，我們整個部隊、我們的員工其實根本就沒有準備。天啊！部長，因為你才剛接任一個多月，今天本席談這件事是期待多於苛責。"],["林部長宜敬：是，謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：但我覺得你們要針對評比的部分努力。你說你們無所謂，但是我們處於地球村，即便你們不看這個評比，但是其他國家都在看。臺灣原本是亞洲四小龍之冠，我們還沒有充分體會到這種驕傲，結果其他人看到的是天天退步。本席告訴你，2022年我們是驕傲的，是第9名，基礎也打好了，其中有五項指標進入前10名，就是前面五項，第一個是線上應用與服務，第二個是基礎建設，其他的本席就不唸了。到2023年，當年的四項優勢不見了，所謂的不見就是沒有排到前10名，不知道排到哪一名去了。"],["林部長宜敬：請問那個「政府資訊長活躍度」跟參加國際會議有關嗎？"],["魯委員明哲：你說什麼？"],["林部長宜敬：就是第4項「政府資訊長活躍度」指的是什麼事情？這個好像很抽象，是跟參加國際會議有關，還是……"],["魯委員明哲：這個很抽象啊？所以你要問，是不是要了解早稻田？因為我沒有去那邊念過書喔！"],["林部長宜敬：對，因為我們現在出國預算被大幅刪減，所以就……"],["魯委員明哲：好。"],["林部長宜敬：這個可能會有一些影響吧！"],["魯委員明哲：大幅刪減喔，但是有一個小問題，2024年預算刪減了嗎？我在講你2024年的成績。"],["林部長宜敬：對，沒有錯。"],["魯委員明哲：2024年刪減了沒有？"],["林部長宜敬：沒有啊，這個……"],["魯委員明哲：部長，你不要學壞的啦！"],["林部長宜敬：對啊！但是接下來……"],["魯委員明哲：我們現在評比的成績只到去（2024）年。"],["林部長宜敬：是啊，沒錯啊！"],["魯委員明哲：今（2025）年有刪預算的問題，你在跟我扯這個？這樣就沒有意思。"],["林部長宜敬：是啊！但接下來不是又會有一個新的評比嗎？"],["魯委員明哲：我會覺得有點莫名其妙啦！"],["林部長宜敬：沒有、沒有，我在講接下來……"],["魯委員明哲：在沒有刪預算之下，你看2024年，所有當時兩年的優勢全部跳到十名以外。最後我只舉一個例子，什麼叫優勢？你說這中間網路硬體的一個評比，剛剛講的我們本來是優勢耶！第2項是第五名，在國際是第五名啊！怎麼會不見呢？是不是因為4G轉5G這種出了問題？我不知道！但我覺得你們要去找出問題，有一些搞不好是NCC的、有些是行政院的，那都不一定！","最後我要拜託你，你在今年3月24號才說的，各位所有的國民，恭喜大家，數位部「我的E政府」已經幫大家結合2,700項服務，一站式的。這個記者會還是你開的，大家都很開心，終於可以點一下，一個窗口一次購足，結果呢？審計部今年的一個資料出來了，我也請教你，到4月23號點進去根本連結不到、連結錯誤，或者連結失效，你所謂的便民措施，就是剛剛找到，點了一個，你的名次不見了，數位服務不見了，你們這個要不要改善啊？要不要改善？"],["王司長誠明：報告委員，審計部的報告是說我們有一半的服務不是線上的，其實我們把線上的跟臨櫃的都一起放在這個網站，讓所有民眾都可以看到線上的跟臨櫃的。至於有一些連結不到的，因為審計部的連結方式……"],["魯委員明哲：這種科技技術應該可以每一天去檢查嘛！"],["王司長誠明：是、是、是，我們會檢查。"],["魯委員明哲：哪些都不見了？跳出來HTTP 404，還是什麼的，我忘了！反正就這樣，怎麼會發生這樣一個事情？尤其是當時的次長接任部長之後，他開了記者會，民眾只要有一個網站，何況如果有很多網站都這樣了，現在都改善完畢了嗎？"],["王司長誠明：跟委員報告，因為審計部去連結的方式會被機關認為它是駭客在攻擊，因為它一次大量連結一些機關。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你覺得是審計部有問題嘛！"],["王司長誠明：這個部分我們會去跟審計部討論，我們會去跟審計部討論這件事情。"],["魯委員明哲：你要跟審計部研究，是不是？"],["王司長誠明：至於網站連結的部分，我們自己還是會有一些精進的技術去……"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，我跟你講，網頁連結錯誤失效，從你這邊超連結過去，就是你沒有檢查好就不對，趕快去改善，如果是書面，人家不方便是另外一回事，所以這個部分我希望能夠積極改善，好不好？部長。"],["林部長宜敬：好，沒問題，我們會積極改善。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。","我想官員可能回答的時候還要更精準，因為剛剛官員居然回答審計部在查詢的時候被認定為駭客，那是在質疑審計部嗎？還是有什麼樣的狀況？我想政府是一體的。另外就剛剛魯明哲委員這邊的一個質詢，在2022年數發部的新聞稿還說臺灣數位政府推動成效獲得國際肯定，那時候是第九名，獲得國際肯定！不要只講好的，如果評比客觀，有20名，我們該檢討要檢討。2022年、2023年、2024年都是全面執政的政府，我想預算都沒有被刪減，但是有預算，排名卻一直往後倒退，我想這也是客觀的事實，我們也期待數發部真的是痛定思痛、好好檢討，而不是在這邊答詢的時候逞一時口舌之快，好不好？","我們休息10分鐘，10分鐘之後繼續開會，謝謝。","休息（10時44分）","繼續開會（10時54分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請昨天已經獲得總統認定要提名的何欣純委員，請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}},{"id":"164169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164169","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6f767810575776d9db030ba4996051aea92e8362d61d61ef2ee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:29:26 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局長你好 局長這本書你應該知道嘛你當天有參加這個新書的發表會就是國安三法有有那天新書發表會總長有邀請我去好 那我想你那時候也有提到這本書你說這是給第一線非常好的一個工具工具書因為國安不只是要保護人民也要說清楚什麼是違法的對不對就讓第一線的人可以"},{"start":38.464,"end":62.792,"text":"可以能夠遵循但是我們看一下上次總統大選有很多里長帶團到大陸回來之後就被大量的搜索約談扣手機甚至後來有一些人還被起訴說他協助中共介入台灣的選舉然後這是違反反滲透法結果我現在查了判決無罪的比例非常非常的高"},{"start":64.413,"end":88.651,"text":"我有整理一下 你們可以看一下這個內容無罪有十二件那一審有罪有四件但是其他更有非常多的案子是不起訴處分所以今天的主題很簡單就是反滲透法怎麼用尤其是你身為調查局局長你今天是調查機關的大家長更應該能夠理解否則我們的人民在選舉期間去大陸旅遊會不會回來就被抓不會"},{"start":90.133,"end":106.525,"text":"所以這個問題就在這裡嘛 如果你說回來被抓 不會但是那麼多人 牽結 不起訴 判無罪那這個就不是回來就被抓嗎好 謝謝委員 容我來簡單的說明一下簡單說就好對 我們反滲透法 其實它要處罰的是受中共"},{"start":107.345,"end":122.094,"text":"只是委託資助那以這個案例來講的話要處罰的是揪團的人而不是參團的人所以剛剛委員所提到的這些民眾他回來其實他是以證人的身份來這個可能接受檢察官的傳喚來作證"},{"start":124.716,"end":152.814,"text":"委員可以看到這裡面有罪的 其實都是揪團的人沒有一個是因為參團的理名而被判刑的沒有我跟你講啦 這個一個行為啦大量的牽結不起訴無罪那你們的處理方式就有問題了否則為什麼會立案調查為什麼會移送為什麼會最後讓檢察官起訴來判無罪你不要跟我說你們在處理上面都沒有問題那我請教你一個非常簡單的問題啦如果不違反選罷法會不會成立反滲透法第七條"},{"start":154.995,"end":183.934,"text":"反滲透法第七條它的底罪就是要違反選罷法好 所以我們很簡單了解就是反滲透法第七條其實說明得非常清楚必須要違反選罷法第五章之罪才有可能成立對不對是好 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趕快解決啦好 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因為我們昨天就是派同仁親自去長榮瞭解那確實 如果說機組員在飛機上有身體不適的話那因為這個是空服的組員所以他並沒有直接涉及到飛安 剛剛我們講的我不是談飛安 我是談他整個這個面對這事情的SOP嘛 這個是你們的調查嘛 對不對"},{"start":134.057,"end":155.611,"text":"這個部分應該要註記 這個有利於這個公司對於組員的一個健康管理 後面的關懷的處理不是只有後面關懷的處理嘛 應該它整個該註記就要註記 該記錄就是要記錄嘛 對不對它都沒有註記 它都沒有記錄 那基本上民航局交通部可以做怎樣的一個處理"},{"start":156.55,"end":184.437,"text":"我們這邊就是還在跟長榮這邊請他把細部調查出來就是說他這個部分應該是要註記然後我們會請他檢討那如果有違反相關規定的話我們會以民航法來處理好 謝謝部長你有聽到嗎我們要遭到勞檢嘛那目前交通部初期有針對這個部分結果他該做的SOP通通沒有做的情況之下勞動部這邊可以做怎樣處理因為這部分應該比較是依照民航局這邊AOR的規定"},{"start":185.541,"end":205.773,"text":"這部分應該是依照他們AOR的規定那他比較不是在我們的勞動法規上面的要求可是我們還是會針對我們勞動法規的部分來去做現在是在做跟這些相關的組員在要做訪談的安排現在應該是在這個安排的階段那也包括跟工會的訪談 對"},{"start":207.478,"end":232.395,"text":"我是想說交通部已經有把初步的這樣的一個調查先出來嘛對不對當然還是必須要再更詳細一點更深入一點的相關的一些調查的一個範疇跟認定嘛但我覺得勞動部既然已經要啟動專案勞警應該是可以一併來做相關的處置這第一點那第二點這個報導這是根據報告報導他是這麼講我們有三個"},{"start":237.899,"end":258.857,"text":"輪流詢問那位學姊要不要背他但因為他身體已經達到有點無法控制的程度所以他太害怕他太害怕跌倒以至於不敢讓我們背只是言見狀例詢問地警是我能叫救護車不過地警回應可以 要的話可以馬上叫他們還在去徵詢CP的意見那CP則回應是可以啊但他知道救護車要智慧嗎確定嗎"},{"start":262.981,"end":275.145,"text":"那學姊聽後就當事人聽後立即表示我有保險但CP再次提醒那要智慧喔文莫也特別註記以上是我的噩夢這誰可以答覆我這個你沒有去調查嗎有事實嗎"},{"start":284.649,"end":311.779,"text":"這狀況我們當然現在就是要透過訪談再一次的確認是不是這樣的狀況明航局知道這個事情嗎明航局知道這個事情嗎有去double check嗎我們是初步知道就是沒有叫救護車可是訪談的部分我們會配合勞動部我是說這一段這一段有有有有詢問過嗎有調查過嗎這個部分就是因為勞動部去的時候他有說他們會進一步訪談那我們也考慮到說對於"},{"start":314.253,"end":333.169,"text":"勞動部去說他會進一步緩談所以這個範疇裡面到底是勞動部還是民航局我為什麼請兩兆起來就是想不要說這個部分是民航局在調查這個部分好像又不是又是勞動部可以調查然後現在在這個地方這個地方到底是你民航局還是你勞動部"},{"start":335.367,"end":358.912,"text":"委員其實我覺得都不用分綿羊局跟勞動部啦齁其實這就是應該一起把所有現場的狀況跟經歷什麼東西給釐清啦齁那當然綿羊局這邊有他們的所管的法規我們有我們所管的法規可是我認為其實就是應該一起把這事情釐清啦我覺得這比較能夠符合社會的期待啦我就是不想這樣分嘛但是這樣垂尋起來就會有這樣的差異嘛對不對你知道我後面還在講什麼嗎"},{"start":360.219,"end":385.926,"text":"我跟你們淘機有確認過機場救護車車輛雖然有收費但只要是緊急救護使用仍然是免費對不對好 疾病要付費也不是這個員工要付的費用這是基本認知啊怎麼會沒有人知道怎麼CP會講這樣的回應這個不你有調查嗎然後整個基礎內在執行或訓練中"},{"start":387.737,"end":413.113,"text":"我覺得就是沒有完整的落實嘛 不然怎麼會機組人員掌握整個飛機的安全 勞動部 消防部可以容許這樣的事情發生 我也不分啊就你們兩個單位 為什麼可以讓這種事情發生然後再來 機組人員 尤其是機組人員共同指出的請病假問題只要請病假 績效就會墊底 甚至於假日忘日請假 扣分也會加重公視用績效來讓員工不敢請假 是我這個事情"},{"start":415.558,"end":434.517,"text":"是否有這個事情 我不會分我請教勞動部 請教交通部還是勞動部 交通部 交通部 勞動部就是不知不覺已經很久了我們現在確實看到他的請假的規則應該是請假的規則裡面其實是有把這個請假來作為他其實獎懲的做法"},{"start":436.42,"end":448.587,"text":"我在這邊具體要求啦齁希望勞動部 交通部一週內啦這個不需要到什麼兩個週還是一個月啦齁一週內就是把長榮內部的血汗勞動問題還有幫剛剛媒體這個報導如果是屬實的話相關的訓練執行的這個樣態 狀態啦齁整個報告一週內提到本委員會給委員會來做說明啦可不可以好 我們盡量"},{"start":463.789,"end":491.408,"text":"我在搜尋勞動部的系統發現2022年期間長榮航空共備處分是24次總金額已經達到423萬最近就是剛剛你們講的啦最重要的一筆是在今年7月加班超時 招處分是100萬元而這100萬已經達到了計畫第79條就是2萬以上100萬以下的這個才華上限嘛我不曉得黃部長可以對這個事情有什麼看法那我再提供另外一個資料就一邊答覆"},{"start":492.508,"end":514.241,"text":"長榮航空光建了114年 就剛剛裡面講的維護勞基法 性別平等工作法 公衛法等項目已經被划了288萬元其中工時休息日有關的花款高達270萬元就代表長榮航空長期就存在這種超時加班 未給足例價已經是一個結構性的問題"},{"start":517.452,"end":539.365,"text":"財報跟相關的資料 長榮航空在2012年2013年的營收都超過2000億以上所以我們剛剛很多人都垂詢嘛這麼大的一個公司 這麼大的一個營收規模這樣的才華真的是不成比喻九牛一毛 不吞不養我再提供最後一個訊息給部長看桃園市 我想這個"},{"start":541.347,"end":553.315,"text":"勞動基準法的事件統一裁判第一次是5萬到大大大大第七次才100萬這個如果是小餐廳小工廠我想沒有問題但遇到這種大企業大規模的營收"},{"start":554.424,"end":579.327,"text":"實在是有很大的一個改進檢討的空間在對照113年有幾個維吾爾勞基華的慣患公司南山人壽險才划8次因業達古有限公司才划7次中皇航空也不枉多讓才划7次怎麼在空中揮的都有這些問題的存在"},{"start":583.083,"end":609.016,"text":"好像要用更高的標準來面對這些航空公司不然他們會覺得這不是華清 這個是在繳歸會對不對這是顯然他把當成繳歸會的一個依據尤其航空公司是特許的行業是啊而且他在比賽時也被罰了幾次"},{"start":611.96,"end":629.066,"text":"好像花不到那個幾次好像不到他們的營業規模的樣子一樣這種心態是很詭異的這種心態是很不足取的這種心態還標榜這樣的航空公司在飛行上有多麼的優越我覺得都非常慚愧啊"},{"start":632.805,"end":652.243,"text":"所以我這邊特別要求勞動部必須啟動勞基法的相關修法對華澤部門必須全面來上修尤其面對大型企業必須要有嚇阻的能力反而不能再讓勞基法的相關的華館成為他們好像在繳規會這樣的一個慣性部長可以嗎是好最後幾點144"},{"start":655.185,"end":677.775,"text":"你們的部長都已經講話了啦齁陳部長講說在幾萬呎的高空上很難預料會發生什麼事情也是呼籲民眾登機前要注意自己的身體狀況尤其飛行長達十幾個小時萬一身體出狀況是叫天天不靈叫地地不靈嘛延長空機主人到底在面對機上不論員工機師或乘客當發生緊急事件要如何面對"},{"start":679.426,"end":708.707,"text":"甚至過去有community的這個案例齁可能面對傳染病史 機上人員都要如何回應這些應該一絲絲都可以說明得很清楚嘛 對不對所以可以跟他們舉航空公司來做更精進的措施但是今天你們的報告連一個字都沒有你們這個一絲絲的 欸 會不會報告是國建署是國建署 剛剛講 我剛剛講的這些機組人員的執行授訓包含"},{"start":709.869,"end":737.793,"text":"機場的這個救護車相關的這樣的訊息連那個CP都不清楚一絲絲應該責無旁貸吧一絲絲應該有相關的報告出來讓我們知道你們扮演什麼樣的角色吧不是讓國健署丟這種報告出來吧明天可以丟出來吧 可以吧好 謝謝 各位請回 謝謝好 謝謝 下一位我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":706,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時20分）謝謝主席。有請洪部長、民航局局長、航政司司長、醫事司司長。"],["主席：請洪部長、民航局、航政司、醫事司。"],["洪部長申翰：劉委員早。"],["劉委員建國：部長早。今天從早上聽到現在，我直接了當講長榮的問題，我是看到有幾個盲點，我覺得越聽越奇怪，也越看越奇怪。這個事件中，空勤服務員應該不同於一般勞工，這點大家都有共識。他在航空器上，是屬於一個很特殊的環境，所以對這類人員的要求SOP，也就是標準作業流程，都有很高的標準，並不是他飛得很高，就要高標準，確實就是必須要有更高標準來做相關的一些規範。","交通部的報告中有提到，班機上有機組人員身體不適，機上有調整組員任務，但未有書面紀錄。這點等一下請局長答復。全程並未通報機長或啟動衛星醫療系統，也沒有廣播尋求機上醫師、聯繫救護車緊急送醫等；等到飛航任務結束後，又未於組員報告中註記這個組員有身體不適之情形。也就是說，機組人員身體不適，已經有調整任務，表示當事人已經非常不舒服，在無法正常執行職務的狀況之下，但好像該做什麼SOP通通都沒有做，是不是這樣？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，我們昨天派同仁親自去長榮了解，如果機組員確實在飛機上有身體不適，因為是空服的組員，並沒有直接涉及到飛安。剛剛我們講因為這班飛機……"],["劉委員建國：我不是談飛安，我是談面對這整個事情的SOP，這是你們的調查，對不對？"],["何局長淑萍：對，我們會建議這個部分應該要註記，這有利於公司對於組員的健康管理以及後面關懷的處理。"],["劉委員建國：不是只有後面關懷的處理。"],["何局長淑萍：對，這整個……"],["劉委員建國：該註記就要註記，該記錄就是要記錄，對不對？他都沒有註記、都沒有記錄，基本上民航局、交通部可以怎樣處理？"],["何局長淑萍：我們還在請長榮細部調查，這部分應該是要註記，我們會請它檢討，如果有違反相關規定，會依民航法來處理。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。","部長，你有聽到嗎？我們要進行專案勞檢。目前交通部初期有針對這個部分，就是他該做的SOP通通沒有做，勞動部可以怎樣處理？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這部分應該是依照民航局AOR的規定，比較不是勞動法規的要求，可是我們還是會針對勞工法規的部分來做，現在應該是在安排相關組員訪談的階段，也包括跟工會的訪談。"],["劉委員建國：我是想說交通部已經把初步的調查先提出來，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：當然還是必須要再有更詳細一點、更深入一點的相關調查的範疇跟認定，我覺得勞動部既然已經要啟動專案勞檢，應該可以一併來做相關的處置。這是第一點。","第二點，根據報導是這麼講：「我們3個有輪流詢問那位學姐要不要背她，但因為她身體已經達到有點無法控制的程度，她太害怕跌倒以致於不敢讓我們背」，直言見狀立刻詢問地勤是否能叫救護車？不過地勤回應：「可以，要的話可以馬上叫。」他們還再去徵詢CP的意見，CP則回應：「是可以啊，但她知道救護車要自費嗎？確定嗎？」學姐聽後，就當事人聽後，立即表示「我有保險」，但CP再次提醒「那要自費喔」，文末特別註記「以上是我的惡夢」。","誰可以答復我，這個你們有去調查嗎？有事實嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個狀況，我們現在當然就是要透過訪談，再一次的確認是不是這樣的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：民航局知道這個事情嗎？民航局知道這個事情嗎？有去double check嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：有，我們初步知道就是沒有叫救護車，可是訪談的部分，我們會配合勞動部，因為……"],["劉委員建國：我是說這一段，這一段有詢問過嗎？有調查過嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：關於這個部分，因為勞動部有說會進一步訪談，我們也考慮到避免對機組員干擾……"],["劉委員建國：勞動部說會進一步訪談，所以這個範疇到底是勞動部還是民航局？"],["何局長淑萍：應該是……"],["劉委員建國：我為什麼請兩造起來，就是因為這個部分是民航局在調查，這個部分好像又不是，是勞動部可以調查，然後現在這個地方到底是民航局還是勞動部？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，其實我覺得都不用分民航局或勞動部，現在就是應該一起把所有現場的狀況跟經歷什麼釐清。當然，民航局有他們所管的法規，我們有我們所管的法規，可是我認為就是應該一起把這件事情釐清，這比較能夠符合社會的期待。"],["劉委員建國：我就是不想這樣分嘛！但是這樣垂詢起來，就會有這樣的差異，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：你知道我後面要講什麼嗎？我跟桃機確認過，機場救護車雖然有收費，但只要是緊急救護使用，仍然是免費，對不對？即便要付費，也不是這個員工要付的費用，這是基本認知，怎麼會沒有人知道？怎麼CP會講出這樣的回應？這個部分你有調查嗎？","然後整個機組人員在執勤或訓練中，我覺得就是沒有完整的落實，不然怎麼會機組人員掌握整個飛機的安全，勞動部、交通部可以容許這樣的事情發生？我也不分了，就你們兩個單位為什麼可以讓這種事情發生？","再來，機組人員，尤其是這些機組人員共同指出請病假的問題，只要請病假，績效就會墊底，甚至假日、旺日請假也會加重扣分，公司用績效讓員工不敢請假，是否有這個事情？是否有這個事情？我不會分，我請教勞動部、請教交通部，還是勞動部／交通部、交通部／勞動部不知不覺已經很久了？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在確實看到應該是它的請假規則裡有把請假作為獎懲的做法。"],["劉委員建國：我在這邊具體要求，希望勞動部、交通部一週內，這個不需要到什麼兩週還是一個月，一週內把長榮內部的血汗勞動問題，還有剛剛這則媒體報導如果屬實，以及相關的訓練、執勤樣態的整個報告，一週內提到本委員會來說明，可不可以？"],["洪部長申翰：好，我們盡量。"],["劉委員建國：好。","我在搜尋勞動部的系統，發現2020年迄今長榮航空共被處分24次，總金額已經達到423萬元。最近，就剛剛你們講的，最重的一筆是在今年7月，加班超時遭處分100萬元。而這100萬元已經達到勞基法第七十九條2萬元以上、100萬元以下的裁罰上限。我不曉得洪部長對這個事情有什麼看法？","我再提供另外一個資料，部長就一併答復。長榮航空光今年，就是114年，你們剛剛講的，違反勞基法、性別平等工作法、工會法等項目，已經被罰了288萬元，其中工時休息日有關的罰款高達270萬元。我覺得就代表長榮航空長期存在超時加班、未給足例假，已經是一個結構性的問題。根據財報跟相關資料，長榮航空在112年、113年的營收都超過2,000億元以上。剛才很多委員都垂詢，這麼大的公司、這麼大的營收規模，這樣的裁罰真的是不成比例，九牛一毛，不痛不癢！","我再提供最後一個訊息給部長看，桃園市違反勞動基準法事件的統一裁罰基準，第一次是5萬元，到了第七次才100萬元，如果是針對小餐廳、小工廠，我想沒有問題，但是遇到這種大企業大規模的營收，實在是有很大改進、檢討的空間。再對照113年有幾個違反勞基法的慣犯公司，南山人壽裁罰8次，英業達股份有限公司裁罰7次，中華航空也不遑多讓，裁罰7次，怎麼在空中飛的都有這些問題存在？好像要用更高的標準來面對這些航空公司，不然他們會覺得這不是罰金，而是在繳規費，對不對？顯然他們把這些裁罰當成繳規費的依據。"],["洪部長申翰：尤其航空公司是特許的行業。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！而且還在比賽誰被罰了幾次，好像罰不到幾次，不到他們營業規模的樣子。這種心態是很詭異的、這種心態是很不足取的，有這種心態還標榜他們的航空公司在飛行上有多麼優越，我都覺得非常慚愧！","我在這邊特別再要求勞動部，必須啟動勞基法的相關修法，希望對罰則部分必須全面上修，尤其面對大型企業必須要有嚇阻的能力，不能再讓勞基法的相關罰款變成大型企業繳規費的慣性。部長，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是："],["劉委員建國：好。","最後一點，醫事司，你們的部長都已經講話了，石部長說在幾萬呎的高空上很難預料會發生什麼事情，呼籲民眾在登機前要注意自己的身體狀況，尤其飛行長達十幾個小時，萬一身體出狀況，是叫天天不應，叫地地不靈。航空公司機組人員到底在面對機上不論員工、機師或乘客，當發生緊急事件要如何面對，甚至過去有COVID-19的案例，可能面對有人突然病死，機上人員要如何回應。關於這些，醫事司應該都可以說明得很清楚，對不對？可以跟民航局和航空公司來做更精進的措施，可是今天你們的報告中連一個字都沒有。衛福部的報告是國健署，我剛剛講的這些機組人員的執勤、受訓，包含機場救護車相關的訊息，連一個CP都不清楚，醫事司應該責無旁貸吧？"],["郭專門委員威中：好。"],["劉委員建國：醫事司應該有相關的報告出來，讓我們知道你們扮演什麼樣的角色吧？不是讓國健署丟這種報告出來吧？"],["郭專門委員威中：好的，跟委員報告，我們回去整理。"],["劉委員建國：明天可以丟出來吧？"],["郭專門委員威中：好。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？好，謝謝。各位請回，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請涂權吉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}},{"id":"164166","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164166","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6e22c56cb0e9ca88abc2e7a8918bc9e7792e8362d61d61ef2e335e2cb9b568a595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:09:14 - 11:20:08","影片長度":"00:10:54","會議時間":"2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】\n【綜合詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-15","start_time":"2025-10-15T11:09:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-15T11:20:08+08:00","duration":654,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":4,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-4-26-4"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.970968750000001,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.59096875,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.437843750000003,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.910343750000003,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.94409375,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.250968750000002,"end":27.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.48659375,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.90159375,"end":45.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.99846875,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.22721875,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.01659375000001,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.34409375000001,"end":106.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.18721875,"end":118.99971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.43846875000001,"end":133.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.20409375,"end":134.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.46971875,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.53159375,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.09596875,"end":158.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.07784375,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.88659375,"end":169.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.74284375000002,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.85596875000002,"end":209.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.49659375000002,"end":179.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.31034375000002,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.58846875,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.92159375,"end":187.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.86596875,"end":192.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.25221875000003,"end":204.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.36534375000002,"end":235.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.28096875000003,"end":254.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.58346875,"end":244.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.12221875000003,"end":253.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.13034375,"end":255.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.61971875,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.27284375,"end":261.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.27659375,"end":269.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.09846875,"end":282.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.38034375,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.56096875000003,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.58596875,"end":282.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.78846875,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.83909375,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.42534375,"end":287.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.88471875,"end":293.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.53346875,"end":301.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.11034375,"end":305.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.26596875,"end":312.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.31971875,"end":318.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.22159375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.69346875,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.31346875,"end":326.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.02221875000004,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.03909375,"end":326.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEA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我們請部長有請部長"},{"start":15.935,"end":34.822,"text":"部長好 部長我記得在今年的6月份我有曾經針對長榮在2019年罷工的事件那這個工會跟長榮公司的一個訴訟長達6年我在今年6月份的時候那時候有詢問過我們部長"},{"start":36.423,"end":65.382,"text":"那我今天想要講的就是說其實工會在這個訴訟當中這個12名被告當中其實有的就淡出工會那只剩下4位留在工會裡面那其實工會可以替這些員工可以發聲那如果像今天發生這樣的一個事件我不知道就是說因為工會的這個角色"},{"start":67.304,"end":86.002,"text":"这个角色如果没了那这些员工受到一些委屈的话那他要向谁来求助那另外我想请教部长就是另外一个就是说我们今年这个三月份长荣航空他有揭露前十大股东"},{"start":86.983,"end":106.47,"text":"他的前十大股东是我们的新智劳退基金占了2.05%那名列这个他的这个名列第八名就是说他的股东前十大我们这个新智劳退基金就占了这个第八"},{"start":107.73,"end":129.062,"text":"我想請教就是說勞動部在2019年的時候我們勞動基金運用局因為那時候工會罷工的事件那時候勞動基金運用局有發函曾經有發函長榮航空就是說要妥善處理勞資爭議當時我想請教就是說"},{"start":135.566,"end":157.121,"text":"其實外界會認為用這樣的一個方式只是一個這個趣聞一個公文給這個長榮航空其實就不痛不癢嘛那未來因為我們這個這個勞退基金其實這個也都是勞工那勞動部應該也要站在勞工的立場就是說未來我們勞動基金要投資的這個企業"},{"start":159.162,"end":168.805,"text":"你們是不是也要把這個勞動指標也要列為你們一個非常重要的一個項目是不是請部長回應"},{"start":169.753,"end":193.341,"text":"好跟委員說明那個其實因為委員的關心所以我們也去查了一下這個我們勞動基金裡面在長榮航空的部分那就我們自營的部分因為勞動基金其實有分自營跟代操的部分那自營的部分其實是沒有長榮航空的股票那只有長榮航空其實比較是委外投信的代操的部分那大概佔比是"},{"start":196.204,"end":204.537,"text":"1.66那當然我們這邊會是請經營局繼續還是要秉持一個專業跟永續現在大家也很強調ESG的概念來適時的來採取相關的作為"},{"start":209.477,"end":235.683,"text":"所以我這邊是不是可以請部長就是針對我們這個勞退基金如果要投資要投資什麼樣的項目不只當然是要看績效那個績效也是這個目標之一那另外就是說我們的這個勞動指標這個部分我覺得應該也要列為你們未來要投資你們如果是自操或者是代操的話應該也要列為你們的這個項目之一"},{"start":236.704,"end":252.904,"text":"跟文說明其實我在上任後我有請我們的基金局那應該要參考國際上面很多基金的投資因為確實現在其實國際上面大家也很重視所謂的永續在投資的標的上面很重視他的永續性這個那"},{"start":256.248,"end":270.509,"text":"來參考國際上面的一些做法那是不是我們可以有一些更精進的空間那我也請我們基金局去做這方面的檢視所以你們現在什麼時候可以有一個比較具體的這種做法我想"},{"start":272.148,"end":290.173,"text":"我們大概給我們一個月的時間好不好那我請我們經營局那來出具一個相關做法的審視的報告來讓我們參考另外部長我接下來我想請教就是說我們召委今天排這樣的一個這個討論"},{"start":292.173,"end":321.628,"text":"那當然就是說我們這個今天是一個這個空服員那如果萬一是機師的話如果今天是機師的話他整個身體狀況不好可能身體不適那會不會影響到非安所以我也希望就是說勞動部針對這一部分真的也要這個介入去調查是不是也可以請部長這邊做一個回應"},{"start":332.36,"end":347.484,"text":"跟委員報告我想機師因為是直接執行操作這個飛機的駕駛員所以如果一旦他有身體狀況不佳其實他一定會直接執行相關的一些處理作業例如直接轉降或者是折返等等"},{"start":348.024,"end":370.386,"text":"那因為後面的空服組員的部分因為我們有依AOR來講有一個最低派遣的規定依這個案例來講如果依安全規定來講他是要派遣8個人那這架飛機配置了12個人所以他在如果在執勤的時候他有表達他的身體狀況不適合等等事實上這個事務長等等是可以來調整他的工作"},{"start":370.926,"end":397.739,"text":"讓他去做進行休息的所以我覺得就是說這個事件讓社會大眾大家都非常的關心尤其是長榮航空大家會覺得說長期好像對我們的勞工爭議不斷所以我也希望說勞動部或者是我們民航局這邊針對這部分應該也要再去多加的去關心 去了解也要去調查"},{"start":398.86,"end":418.245,"text":"另外我想請教部長其實我們的職業安全衛生法第一條的內容它就是說為防止職業災害保障工作者安全及健康所以訂定職業安全衛生法這個是在第一條的內容"},{"start":419.745,"end":441.274,"text":"那我想請教就是說就像我們這個這個勞退基金投資投資這個長榮航空或者是未來我們是不是也可以要求就是說勞動部要求或者是跨部會的一個討論就是說金管會可以將這些"},{"start":443.035,"end":466.483,"text":"上市櫃公司他們原本的這個永續經營或者是他們的永續報告書裡面是不是也要納入就是員工的待遇或者是員工的工作的環境就是說永續經營或社會責任也要納進去是不是那個部長是不是針對這一部分未來你們也可以跟金管會這邊來做一個要求"},{"start":466.843,"end":480.147,"text":"跟穩說明其實這部分已經放進去了其實這個員工的包括員工的待遇跟一些處境那其實現在包括員工的人身安全那這其實已經放入到這個114年的這個治理評鑑的指標裡面"},{"start":484.881,"end":500.246,"text":"114年所以是今年今年放進去所以那目前今年放進去那長榮航空他的那個我希望說未來就是說這些原則上這些上市櫃公司應該要自己以身作則嘛"},{"start":500.686,"end":516.304,"text":"所有投資人他當然是要這個投資效益那另外一方面他也希望這家公司是永續經營那如果說這家公司能夠永續經營其實很重要就是員工的工作環境工作待遇"},{"start":517.304,"end":542.512,"text":"讓這些員工能夠穩定其實這家公司才能夠永續經營所以我希望就是說勞動部跟金管會這邊針對這部分其實我們應該也要去落實應該要去落實我不知道說你們有沒有什麼樣的機制可以去看說到底他這個商事櫃公司的永續報告未來他有沒有落實去做或者是把這個呈現出來你們要怎麼去去集合"},{"start":543.601,"end":559.626,"text":"我们其实因为这是今年114年其实把它给放进这个指标所以明年之后我想我们可以来检视而且这不止我们检视这是要社会一起来整体检视也包括投资人一起来检视那在这里面是不是能够对于"},{"start":560.866,"end":583.859,"text":"公司有更多的社會的壓力投資方的壓力然後希望公司能夠更做本質性的改善這部分當然這也是為什麼其實我們也跟很積極跟金管會來聯繫希望能夠把這個關於相關的這永續報告署名放入相對應的這個指標那其實我們現在跟金管會的討論其實也不只是在"},{"start":585.26,"end":598.375,"text":"員工的人身安全可能未來也會包括其實很多像友善家庭照顧的職場的一些指標我們都希望未來能夠在永續報告書裡面更能夠凸顯這也能夠比較方便大家做比較專業的檢視"},{"start":599.796,"end":628.05,"text":"我希望就是說勞動部你是站在勞工的立場保護勞工的這樣子的一個機關所以未來不論是上市櫃公司或者是一般的企業希望也是能夠針對勞工的這個部分能夠更加的用心因為我們看到長榮航空這樣連續幾次其實大家對這個企業形象我是覺得它的企業形象是已經受損了"},{"start":629.15,"end":650.25,"text":"那我當然我不知道說他們公司自己是本身是怎麼想的那我也希望就是說勞動部針對這一部分既然一而再再而三有發生這樣的一個狀況其實我覺得說勞動部針對這些時常發生有一些勞資爭議的這些公司我覺得你們應該也要更加去注意好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時9分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。我記得我在今年六月份曾經針對長榮2019年罷工事件，工會跟長榮公司訴訟長達6年一事詢問過部長，而我今天想講的就是訴訟的12名被告當中，有人已經淡出工會，只剩下4位留在工會裡面。其實工會可以替員工發聲，像是發生今天這樣的事件，如果工會這個角色沒了，這些員工受到一些委屈的話要向誰求助？","另外，我想請教部長，今年三月份，長榮航空揭露前十大股東，在其前十大股東中，新制勞退基金占了2.05%，名列第八，也就是在前十大股東中，新制勞退基金占第八名。我想請教勞動部，2019年發生罷工事件，當時勞動基金運用局曾經發函長榮航空，要求妥善處理勞資爭議，，而外界認為用這樣的方式──只是去文給長榮航空，其實就不痛不癢嘛！勞退基金來自勞工，勞動部應該站在勞工的立場，也就是對於未來勞動基金要投資的企業，你們是不是也要將勞動指標列為非常重要的項目之一？請部長回應。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實因為委員的關心，我們也去查了一下勞動基金裡面涉及長榮航空的部分。就自營部分──勞動基金其實有分自營跟代操部分，自營部分其實沒有長榮航空公司的股票，持有長榮航空的是委外投信代操部分，占比大概是1.66%。當然我們會請基金局還是要繼續秉持專業跟永續原則處理，現在大家也很強調ESG的概念，所以要適時採取相關作為。"],["黃委員秀芳：我是不是可以請部長針對勞退基金要投資什麼樣的項目，不只……當然要看績效，績效也是目標之一，另外就是勞動指標這個部分，我覺得應該也要列為你們未來要投資的參考，無論是自操或代操，都應該列為參考項目之一。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實我在上任後曾請基金局參考國際上很多基金的投資。因為現在國際上確實也很重視永續、在投資標的上很重視其永續性，所以要參考國際上的做法，研究我們是不是有一些更精進的空間，我也請基金局去做這方面的檢視。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以什麼時候可以有比較具體的做法？"],["洪部長申翰：委員給我們大概1個月的時間，好不好？我請基金局出具相關作法的審視報告讓委員參考。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。","另外，接下來我想請教，召委今天排這樣的討論，涉及的是一位空服員，萬一是機師的話，他身體狀況不好、身體不適，會不會影響到飛安？所以我也希望勞動部針對這部分真的要介入調查，是不是可以請部長回應？"],["洪部長申翰：機師部分可能要請局長。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，請局長。"],["主席：飛安的問題，請局長。"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，機師因為是直接執行、操作飛機的駕駛員，一旦他身體狀況不佳，一定會直接執行相關處理作業，例如直接轉降或折返等等。後面空服組員的部分，依AOR來講有最低派遣規定，依這個案例來講，依照安全規定要派遣8個人，而這架飛機配置了12個人，所以如果他在值勤的時候有表達他的身體狀況不適合等等，事實上事務長等人是可以調整他的工作、讓他休息的。以上說明。"],["黃委員秀芳：這個事件讓社會大眾都非常關心，尤其是對於長榮航空，大家會覺得長期以來好像勞工爭議不斷，所以我希望勞動部或民航局針對這部分多加關心、了解，也要調查。","另外，我想請教部長。其實職業安全衛生法第一條內容就說為防止職業災害、保障工作者安全及健康，所以訂定職業安全衛生法，這是第一條的內容。那我想請教，像勞退基金投資長榮航空，未來勞動部是不是也可以要求，或者是經過跨部會討論後，金管會是不是可以要求這些上市櫃公司，在原本的永續經營或永續報告書裡面也納入員工待遇或員工工作環境，也就是永續經營或社會責任也要納進去？部長，針對這部分，你們未來是不是也可以向金管會要求？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實這部分已經放進去了，包括員工的待遇跟處境，也包括員工的人身安全，其實已經放入114年的治理評鑑指標。"],["黃委員秀芳：114年，所以是今年放進去的？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：今年放進去，那長榮航空的……我希望的是這些上市櫃公司未來應該以身作則。所有投資人當然是追求投資效益，另一方面，也希望這家公司永續經營。如果這家公司要能夠永續經營，其實很重要的就是員工的工作環境、工作待遇，要讓這些員工能夠穩定，這家公司才能夠永續經營啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以勞動部跟金管會針對這部分其實也應該落實。不知道你們有沒有什麼樣的機制，可以檢視上市櫃公司的永續報告未來有沒有落實或者把這部分呈現出來？你們要怎麼稽核？"],["洪部長申翰：這其實是今年、114年放進去的指標。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以今年才剛開始這樣做嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我想明年之後可以檢視。而且不只是我們檢視，而是要由社會整體檢視，也包括投資人一起檢視，看看是不是能夠從這裡面對公司產生更多社會壓力、投資方壓力，希望公司更能做本質性的改善。這也是為什麼我們很積極地跟金管會聯繫，希望在相關永續報告書中放入相對應的指標。","我們現在跟金管會的討論其實不只在於員工的人身安全，未來可能也會包括友善家庭照顧等職場指標，我們都希望在永續報告書裡更能凸顯，也比較方便大家做比較專業的檢視。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，勞動部既然是站在勞工的立場、保護勞工的機關，未來不論是針對上市櫃公司或一般企業，我希望勞動部都能針對勞工能更加用心。因為我們看到長榮航空連續幾次這樣的事件，我覺得其企業形象已經受損了！當然不知道公司本身是怎麼想的，但我希望勞動部針對這部分，既然他們一而再、再而三發生這樣的狀況，我希望勞動部針對這些時常發生勞資爭議的公司，應該也要更加去注意。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長。"],["主席（林委員淑芬代）：下一位請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 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各位委員 有請部長我們請部長 謝謝部長好 辛苦了今天一開始我還是要先談整個馬太安菸賽福的過程不是要去救者而是說因為發生這麼大的災害"},{"start":47.529,"end":60.062,"text":"相關的災害的救助或是相關的措施就要從官去處理要去從官去處理好我們看這個"},{"start":61.7,"end":88.005,"text":"農業部林業及自然保育署的一個報告裡面針對馬鞍西淹塞府災害現況特別提到109年起然後也提到113年我就不再重複了就是說這個109年起這個就開始逐年擴大這個汐水面積也提到了113年"},{"start":90.269,"end":118.656,"text":"又提到這個更是開始擴大今年的8月13號立法院做了一個決議開挖易紅道開挖易紅道有困難的話最起碼修築堤防固床工程這個是當初8月13號的一個議事錄8月13號的議事錄立法院"},{"start":121.428,"end":149.081,"text":"本席在8月20號也發文召開協調會因為我看到的資料是說10月初就要開始疫流都沒有下雨的話10月初就疫流所以我們緊急召開協調會這個會議結論也特別請各機關積極辦理開挖易洪道 修築地方 庫船工程等"},{"start":151.107,"end":178.421,"text":"好 我們看這個災後災後水利署十天十天完成這個加速設置土堤防線三重保護更加穩固十天 完成了這個中期的部分復建工程"},{"start":179.4,"end":200.989,"text":"到明年的4月防汛期前完成緊急輸進規劃今年年底也就是10 11 12三個月要完成100萬立方公尺"},{"start":202.748,"end":227.206,"text":"我提這個意思說因為前面沒有做所以會造成就農業的來講農業的來講非常大的損害像這個是往事這個是那個板柵農場這個整個往事的機器全部都壞了全部都壞了"},{"start":229.358,"end":253.778,"text":"這個農田全部被淹沒農田被淹沒農田被淹沒農田被淹沒農機也被淹沒農田也是被淹沒這個以這個為例土都已經到了一樓的房子一樣高了當然農田的淹沒也是一樣也是一樣這個農田這個是"},{"start":258.341,"end":281.648,"text":"這颱風淺風災害淺這個差很多真的差很多這個很強烈的對比好這個農業部這段時間也做了很多的相關的這些救助或是重建或是相關的這些輔導很重要的就是說這裡面呢一再的"},{"start":282.489,"end":306.417,"text":"对象就是自有耕地或成株耕地这个部分我们就必须要去考量这里面也是一样这个腌农田流失买莫专案辅导措施就是你还是以自有耕地或成株耕地这样的一个为主"},{"start":308.401,"end":335.517,"text":"像这个农业资财农基剂也是变成要自有的要有农基证明类似像这样的像这个都必须要去考虑怎么样针对受害它一样是受害像这个农地专案农契咒这个修根这些你们都有做了我现在包括农田的复原各方面"},{"start":336.7,"end":363.167,"text":"也强调的是自有耕地像这个我们就讲这个农产品农产业全品项你是只限于光复箱啊凤梨镇也是有啊所以就不要去凤梨镇也应该比较农产业全品项不能只有光复箱啊"},{"start":364.521,"end":392.898,"text":"所以這個部分是因為我實地去看了 去了解 去勘查了所以這個部分也應該要把它補列進去很重要的是說尤其是原住民的部分原住民保留地我們有取得所有錢的有的還沒有取得所有錢 還在作業中鄉鎮公所工廠管理機關都已經勘查"},{"start":394.977,"end":419.799,"text":"同意符合振化边保育地可以取得收入钱但是他还在作业中的明明这个土地工厂管理机关都同意他使用但是产权还在公有还在国产署像这样的一个或是在还在研明会所以这个部分也请这个"},{"start":421.555,"end":447.902,"text":"農業部能夠給也給一個這個只要是能夠讓工廠管理機關證明他確實是他在耕種所以現在很多都放寬了包括我們一般的住房屋那些都放寬了只要能夠雖然沒有所有錢的房子沒有所有錢但是能夠證明說確實他的房子"},{"start":449.361,"end":478.081,"text":"在居住雖然沒有戶籍的現在都放寬了所以農業的部分也希望能夠放寬包括農機證明在鄉下都是這樣我買了之後我現在沒有做農了就賣給另外一個沒有買賣企業所以這個希望能夠收錢給村里長或者是農會去證明部長可以嗎"},{"start":479.767,"end":500.561,"text":"委員報告您剛才所提的大部分我在去花蓮的時候就已經處理了包括農機證明我們現在也不需要農機證明了對於這個自有土地或是租地的部分你如果沒有企業的話你只要有口頭約因為有很多口頭約口頭約你只要竊竊然後竊竊未來如果地主沒有意見那就可以領如果地主認為是他的"},{"start":501.081,"end":520.798,"text":"那就進到紛爭處理的機制那你這邊提到的原住民保留地所有權的農民的部分因為他沒有所有權然後他隨便指認哪一個地是他種的我沒辦法判斷所以只要是原民會那邊因為他有劃分嘛能夠提供證明他是"},{"start":521.538,"end":546.079,"text":"對 在那邊就請那個工廠管理機關提出證明對 他如果證明說他只是還沒有國有財政署他也可以證明他如果國有財政署也說雖然說國有財政署沒有提供租約但是也也出具的說他有在這邊種植的事實我們都可以認好這個基本上所以這個部分我們會盡量的去處理這個本來我們就在處理的還是要有公文出來好不好我們"},{"start":546.699,"end":572.356,"text":"該有的我們都會有包括這些都能夠有個白紙黑字地方政府才可以或是農會還是相關受理的單位才能夠有所依據好不好最後灌溉溝渠的部分我們就以這個例子馬太安溪他本來從這邊那個灌溉排水灌溉水但是因為"},{"start":573.627,"end":599.519,"text":"就把它沖毀然後有時候它整個溪流因為整次的關係所以沒有了沒有水了然後這個都沒有水了我現在就跟你講跟部長講我都有照片了部長你請委員最後一句話因為最後了最後一句話鄉親認為這個抽水沒有辦法因應"},{"start":600.73,"end":608.506,"text":"所以這個部分怎麼樣去解決再請那個你們是哪個單位去農水署農田署再跟我討論好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":747,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時20分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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請我們蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 王委員長好 局長好"},{"start":12.441,"end":33.495,"text":"那個前兩天日本媒體報導特別談到台灣在美中關係之間而且最主要的就是我們對外簽署相關的貿易協定那麼日媒就是日經新聞他直接說我們因為受到中美"},{"start":34.255,"end":56.772,"text":"的夾擊的困境所以呢台灣簽貿易協定卻遭世界各國冷落這裡面主要是談到我們跟加拿大事實上已經談定但是呢但是其實沒有辦法簽署這個協定那我想台灣我們其實對外貿易是我們非常非常重要的一個環節"},{"start":57.933,"end":84.045,"text":"那麼尤其我們現在也在面臨整個的美國的這個對等貿易關稅的這樣壓力所以請問一下就我們所了解日媒的報導日經新聞的報導是正確的嗎那有關於我們台灣對外洽簽貿易協定除了美國之外我們也激進跟其他國家洽簽貿易協定是不是確實有受阻的情形"},{"start":84.653,"end":113.609,"text":"好 先跟委員簡單說明一下因為那個經貿談判不是我的夜館但是因為委員在關切那我們大概就國際情資的角度來跟委員報告一下可能目前一些國際在這部分談判的一個狀況尤其在整個美國關稅之後我們可以看到國際之間確實對於雙邊多邊的經貿協定的洽談是越來越積極那我們國家在對外經貿談判也是不斷地在推動所以也跟英國最近有接近一個協定那我們是不是真的已經受阻了不只是跟美國"},{"start":114.629,"end":141.432,"text":"跟其他國家因為連加拿大已經跟我們談定但是卻遲遲沒有辦法簽署而且這個已經受到日媒的日本媒體的一個高度關切對那因為有些這是事實嗎有些經貿談判他還在進行過程當中那當然媒體的報導我們都要重視那實際的進展我想還是要由涉及談判的單位來對外做比較完整的說明會比較恰當"},{"start":142.133,"end":162.644,"text":"不過這個跟我們整個的其實我覺得台灣最重要的國安就是我們整個在國際間的有關於經貿的部分那個是最重要的那另外一件事情就是日本的政局日本現在自民黨已經產生他的新的那個黨魁"},{"start":163.624,"end":182.137,"text":"但是那麼新的黨魁高市早苗能不能順利的成為日本的新任首相現在卻出現了變數啊那現在也有這個媒體報導啊就說日本的政局恐變天因為原來是自公黨的合作"},{"start":182.917,"end":206.992,"text":"自民黨即使沒有過半數的席次仍然可以去拿下首相但是現在看起來非常有可能就是高市早苗沒有辦法成為新的首相而這對於台灣來講當然有影響大家也知道高市早苗因為基本上他走的是安倍路線那安倍跟台灣的關係非常的親密那麼特別跟賴總統的關係因為賴總統曾經去參加過佳季"},{"start":211.195,"end":233.706,"text":"好那如果今天不是高市早苗的話而且有新的不管新的黑馬是誰那請問一下我們有沒有掌握相關的狀況我們的評估是什麼跟委員說明一下我還是前提先說明清楚我國安情報所長我不適合去評論其他國家的內政而且正在跟台灣呢對好那我來說直接跟台灣有關係啊"},{"start":236.747,"end":265.635,"text":"好 我來說明一下事實上現在就日本的輿情輿情的討論跟委員報告 輿情的討論日本方面是認為說各政黨之間還在做一些折衝高市代表的自民黨它目前還在爭取在野黨的支持另外的立憲民主黨在野黨也在爭取其他黨派的支持所以目前還在討論過程當中我們不適合做太早的斷論第二個 在各政黨的政治立場上幾乎有它共同的地方"},{"start":266.095,"end":282.362,"text":"那對於這個區域安全跟某種程度維護集體安全跟美國日安保的合作這個主軸基調是在的這大概是第二點跟委員來做報告那第三點當然在管理跟中國的關係上那也會希望用比較務實的角度來進行必要的一個管理"},{"start":282.722,"end":302.67,"text":"那第四個在政策路線上對於台灣有事可能對於日本的影響那他們確實幾乎都有一些跨黨派的共識那這部分我們是有蠻廣泛的跟日本政界的接觸那有得到以上比較初步的一個觀察跟委員做的說明我想第一個我們還是要密切去掌握狀況終究我想日本跟我們長期以來是對那現在這個政局當然我們不曉得最後的結果但是我們第一個一定要掌握"},{"start":311.895,"end":328.434,"text":"那第二個但是我覺得因為每一個政黨或者每個人他們的路線多多少少會有些許不同所以這一點還是會對台灣會產生影響尤其我在這邊沒有特別講我覺得最近以來日本媒體很多人講說日本媒體"},{"start":329.235,"end":353.405,"text":"最愛台灣了可是最近日本媒體對台灣的報導說實在都是會讓大家呈現比較憂心的一面不管是政治上的比如說日本媒體根本不同意大罷免甚至在他們的社論裡面那現在對我們的經貿問題這台灣媒體沒有提出來但是去提出說我們已經被各國人弱這都是我們值得去重視跟關心的警訊"},{"start":354.045,"end":360.271,"text":"因為日本是民主國家那他們的媒體的討論會非常多元那我們都會來收報來掌握相關的動態謝謝委員來提醒我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":454,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時23分）謝謝主席。我們請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：局長好。前兩天有日本媒體報導，也就是日經新聞，特別談到臺灣在美中關係之間，我們對外簽署相關的貿易協定，因為受到中美夾擊的困境，所以臺灣簽貿易協定遭世界各國冷落。這個報導主要是說我們跟加拿大事實上已經談定，卻遲遲沒有辦法簽署這個協定。其實對外貿易是我們臺灣非常、非常重要的一個環節，尤其我們現在正面臨美國對等貿易關稅這樣的壓力。就我們所了解，日媒、日經新聞的報導是正確的嗎？除了美國之外，我們臺灣也積極跟其他國家洽簽貿易協定，現在是不是確實有受阻的情形？"],["蔡局長明彥：先跟委員說明一下，經貿談判不是我的業管，但因為委員關切，我們大概就國際情資的角度跟委員報告。國際目前在這部分談判的狀況，尤其在美國的關稅政策之後，我們可以看到國際間對於雙邊、多邊經貿協定的洽談，確實是越來越積極。我們國家在對外經貿的談判也不斷地在推動，所以最近也跟英國簽訂一個協定……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們是不是真的受阻了，不只是跟美國，跟其他國家？因為連加拿大都已經跟我們談定，卻遲遲沒有辦法簽署，而這個問題也受到日本媒體高度關切。這是事實嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有些經貿談判還在進行當中，當然媒體報導，我們也都要重視；實際的進展，我想還是要由涉及談判的單位來對外做比較完整的說明，會比較恰當。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我覺得臺灣最重要的國安議題，就是我們整個在國際間關於經貿的部分，那個是最重要的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外一件事情就是日本的政局，現在日本的自民黨已經產生新的黨魁，新黨魁高市早苗能不能順利成為日本的新任首相，現在出現變數。有媒體報導，日本的政局恐變天，因為原來是與公明黨合作，自民黨即使沒有過半數的席次，仍然可以拿下首相一職，但是現在看起來高市早苗非常有可能沒辦法成為新的首相，這對臺灣來講當然有影響。大家知道高市早苗基本上是走安倍路線，安倍跟臺灣的關係非常親密，特別是跟賴總統的關係，因為賴總統曾經參加過他的家祭。如果今天不是高市早苗的話，不管新的黑馬是誰，請問我們有沒有掌握相關狀況？我們的評估是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我還是跟委員把前提先說明清楚，我是國安情報首長，不適合去評論其他國家的內政，而且是正在進行……"],["王委員鴻薇：那麼跟臺灣呢？這些跟臺灣有關係啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：好，現在就日本輿情的討論來跟委員報告。日本方面認為各政黨之間還在做一些折衝，高市代表的自民黨目前還在爭取在野黨的支持，另外在野黨的立憲民主黨也在爭取其他黨派的支持，所以目前都還在討論過程當中，我們不適合太早論斷。第二，各政黨的政治立場，幾乎也有它共同的地方，對於區域安全跟某種程度維護集體安全，跟美日安保的合作，這個主軸基調是在的，這是第二點要跟委員報告的。第三，在管理跟中國的關係上，也會希望用比較務實的角度進行必要的管理。第四，在政策路線上，對於臺灣有事，可能對於日本的影響，他們確實幾乎也都有一些跨黨派的共識。我們在這部分跟日本政界也都有廣泛的接觸，得到以上比較初步的觀察，跟委員說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想，第一個我們還是要密切掌握狀況，長期以來，日本終究跟我們是比較緊密的，對於現在的這個政局，當然我們不曉得最後的結果，但是我們第一個一定要掌握……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們不要去評論。"],["王委員鴻薇：第二個，因為每一個政黨或者是個人，他們的路線多多少少會有些許不同，這一點還是會對臺灣產生影響。很多人都說日本媒體最愛臺灣了，可是最近日本媒體對臺灣的報導，說實在話都會呈現讓大家比較憂心的一面，比如在政治上，日本媒體甚至在他們的社論裡面，根本不同意大罷免；現在對我們的經貿問題，這臺灣媒體沒有提出來，但是他們說我們已經被各國冷落，這些都是值得我們重視跟關心的警訊。"],["蔡局長明彥：因為日本是民主國家，他們媒體的討論會非常多元，我們都會蒐報，掌握相關的動態。謝謝委員提醒我們。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員，局長請回。","接下來進行詢答的鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請吳宗憲委員進行詢答，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","陳永康","羅美玲","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00003"}}},{"id":"164163","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164163","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db68087e3afb6f0e8c197bc26f8a2da105892e8362d61d61ef282244cc87e3a1d295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:16:23 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計畫型補助我們一般性補助它是有增加所以整個"},{"start":399.652,"end":422.961,"text":"從總分配稅款他增加415那你如果有增加的話按照道理那地方的縣市首長要感謝你啊那為什麼我們侯市長他感覺經費是不足的啊中央是應該多多編下來多多來支持地方的那請問你你有沒有跟侯市長有溝通過"},{"start":424.141,"end":448.002,"text":"我們這個有行政院我們院長有召開一個縣市長的一個相關的一個討論的會議也有邀請 何市長也有參加那他說了什麼對 這個部分他是說如果是屬於地方應該負擔的部分他們會負起責任 是這樣對 那是他負的責任嘛那他當然是希望說中央能可以多多的補助啊"},{"start":448.82,"end":459.931,"text":"我們也盡量我們也希望能夠多多補助但是就是力有未待因為我們被拿掉4165億之後我們沒有能力繼續維持原來的補助"},{"start":460.578,"end":468.845,"text":"外界都搞不清楚我們每年稅收都超徵去年超徵了5280億前年累積這幾年超徵了一兆8000億大家在問 奇怪為什麼主計總處這邊你還要喊說沒錢錢跑去哪裡了"},{"start":480.578,"end":500.987,"text":"我要跟委員講像去年你說去年超生五千多億那這五千多億中央拿到的是三千多億其他的是地方拿走了那三千多億整個到一個叫做累積剩餘裡面去那以一百一十三年度整個累積剩餘是八千三百九十三億那這個部分他去挹注那個那個那個那個"},{"start":501.687,"end":509.112,"text":"後的特別預算還有特別戰機的一個部分整個拿掉之後4444億支援這一次的韌性預算還要舉債1056億"},{"start":514.264,"end":542.636,"text":"我們地方所有的建設熬熬待補希望主計長能多多體恤民情多多關愛的眼神來照顧我們新北的發展我們也希望盡量我們繳稅繳那麼多可是得到的福利跟待遇卻覺得天壤之別所以希望包括交通 捷運等等我們都需要仰賴"},{"start":544.079,"end":572.239,"text":"中央的多多支持才有辦法來推動比如說我們深坑地區深坑輕軌你們準備補助多少輕軌的部分深坑 對 深坑輕軌還有像我們新店的第二運動中心在安坑地區我們也爭取要做一個運動中心我們都吃吃的在等可不可以在這個部分你們可以多多的協助"},{"start":573.102,"end":598.767,"text":"這個是由各部會計劃型的補助是由各部會來負責我們都提出了計劃型的補助深坑輕軌大概280多億吧我們也希望看交通部來審查的一個情形那如果都審查通過的話主計總署主委長那邊可不可以多多支持如果交通部審查通過他會按財力分級去做分配那分配的情形之後編列預算這個部分我們就會來支持"},{"start":600.949,"end":612.333,"text":"請大力支持因為都等很久了因為再繞回來就是這個軍人加薪的部分剛剛很多委員都提到我們都通過啊你們為什麼不編這一點"},{"start":614.918,"end":641.563,"text":"請你多多考量一下軍人保家衛國非常辛苦那該加薪的部分一定要予以照顧還有退休軍警銷他們的一些基本的一些權利跟義務也應該多多照顧了現在萬物飆漲就是這一些最基層的公務人員得不到政府的關懷今年度有沒有加薪"},{"start":643.635,"end":668.83,"text":"今年沒有加薪明年度會不會加薪115沒有加薪也沒加今年114有加薪115沒加可是你這樣加薪今年加也沒加幾%百分之四百分之四百分之三雞腿便當本來70塊現在都漲到140了它是漲了一倍結果你說你加薪3塊錢"},{"start":671.179,"end":697.331,"text":"等於一個便當多70塊中央你只給我3塊錢那我缺的67塊我找誰拿啊所以現在基本的員工公務人員的心情就是說你加3%趕不上物價飆漲的速度所以怎麼辦這個就是我們考量所以現在國內情況就是"},{"start":698.479,"end":718.945,"text":"年輕人不敢生生了怕養不起造成這個國安的問題所以希望竹記長可以多多想一下錢能幫忙多照顧年輕人多照顧地方好不好是謝謝好 我們謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時16分）謝謝召委、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，有請陳淑姿主計長。"],["主席：我們請陳主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：現在整個世界的經濟成長情況，因為美中關稅戰的關係影響了很大的布局。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：昨天又宣布要收港口稅，兩邊就這樣對來對去，你對臺灣明年度經濟成長的預測情況是怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們目前是預測明年差不多是百分之二點多啦，在2.81%左右。"],["羅委員明才：比央行預測的還要高。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["羅委員明才：IMF這個機構已經預測明年的經濟是往下滑的。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：臺灣的情況怎麼樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這其實要分，一個是傳產（傳統產業），一個就是一般AI的產業，AI的產業其實還是持續看好，但是傳統產業的這個部分，這就是我們韌性預算裡面要協助的一個重點，是這樣的。"],["羅委員明才：現在整個臺灣的經濟發展以及民間的結構，事實上跟以往傳統的發展是不一樣的。主計長，過去就傳產的部分，大概有三分之二的上市上櫃公司，他的股價沒漲反而跌，還跌破20年線。我們就發現這個世界在變，臺灣的經濟表現相較於全世界來講算是還可以，為什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我們有AI產業，還有資通產業的助力。"],["羅委員明才：對，我們就是靠台積電這個護國神山，以及周邊大概有四、五十家跟AI有相關性的，所以成長特別地熱。我們很顯然可以看到世界在改變，還好臺灣有台積電，還好臺灣有AI。在你的報告當中也講到以後AI的概念，請問現在輝達到底要不要留在臺灣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我想各地方政府都在努力當中。"],["羅委員明才：那每個人需不需要多努力？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，都需要努力。"],["羅委員明才：你們有什麼可以努力的地方？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分，以我們來講，譬如有哪些產業需要協助的部分，我們中央也能夠來盡力，這樣子。"],["羅委員明才：有關產業協助，你們可以做什麼樣的協助？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這要看經濟部那邊要怎麼樣來處理。"],["羅委員明才：我想一般的國際大廠如果要真正地落地，總部要設在這邊，周遭的環境就很重要，像是交通、醫療、學生就學問題及生活圈等等，因此，回歸到大家比較重視的一點，財政收支劃分法，你要讓地方政府有能力好好的推動使用這些經費，至少下水道不要淹水嘛！你看上次高雄淹大水、臺南也淹水，改變了什麼？改變了這些國際大廠落戶的考量嘛！聽說他們現在都不去嘉義了，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：應該不會吧！"],["羅委員明才：有要去嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還是有啊！"],["羅委員明才：台積電幾廠不是都停工了，還會再去嗎？會去高雄嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有啊！"],["羅委員明才：哪一家會去？"],["陳主計長淑姿：目前在高雄那個……"],["羅委員明才：楠梓加工區？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是、不是楠梓，是另外一個……"],["羅委員明才：現在很多廠商「驚驚」不敢去了！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會啦！"],["羅委員明才：最主要是會淹水，你想想看，機器設備那麼的重要，淹了一次之後，誰敢保證不會再淹？因此，下水道及周邊治山防洪的經費問題相當重要。我們再繞回來看，財劃法，因為本席來自於新北市，你們今年對於新北市的地方一般性補助少了多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般性的補助……"],["羅委員明才：我們新北市有四百多萬的人口，本來平均下來給我們地方的就少，現在還東扣西扣，連一般性的補助都少了，變成我們的自主性財源要切出一塊來彌補這個地方、變成左右見絀，少了多少，主計長？"],["陳主計長淑姿：增加啦！"],["羅委員明才：增加多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：增加89。"],["羅委員明才：今年增加89？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，一般性補助。"],["羅委員明才：但我們原本預期應該要有二百多啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：中央挹注之後，它整個是多了209億元。"],["羅委員明才：可能是專案補助的部分增加吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，一般性補助是有增加，所以整個統籌分配稅款增加了415億元。"],["羅委員明才：如果有增加的話，照理講，地方的縣市首長要感謝你，為什麼侯市長感覺經費是不足的啊？中央應該要多多編列預算支持地方，請問你是否與侯市長溝通過？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們院長有召開與縣市長的相關討論會議，侯市長也有參加。"],["羅委員明才：他說了什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他說如果是屬於地方應該負擔的部分，他們會負起責任。"],["羅委員明才：對，那是他要負的責任，但他當然也是希望中央能給予多多的補助啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們也是儘量啊！我們也希望能夠多多補助，但是力有未逮，在我們被拿掉4,165億元之後，沒有能力繼續維持原來的補助了。"],["羅委員明才：外界都搞不清楚，我們每年的稅收都超徵，去年超徵了5,280億元，前年加上這幾年的累積總共超徵了1兆8,000億元，大家都在問，奇怪，為什麼主計總處這邊還要喊沒錢？錢跑去哪裡了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要告訴委員，你說去年超徵五千多億元，中央拿到三千多億元，其它的是地方拿走了，而且三千多億元整個是歸到累計賸餘。以113年度為例，整個累計賸餘是8,393億元，挹注到疫後的特別預算以及戰機的部分，整個拿掉之後，編列4,444億元支援這次的韌性預算，還要舉債1,056億元。"],["羅委員明才：我們地方所有的建設嗷嗷待哺，希望主計長能多多體恤民情、多多給予關愛的眼神，照顧我們新北市的發展……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們也希望能儘量。"],["羅委員明才：事實上，我們繳了那麼多稅，但是得到的福利及待遇卻感覺是天壤之別，包括交通，譬如捷運等等，我們都需要仰賴中央多多支持，才有辦法能夠推動。譬如深坑輕軌，你們準備補助多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：輕軌的部分……"],["羅委員明才：除了深坑輕軌，還有我們新店的第二運動中心，在安坑地區我們也爭取要蓋第二運動中心，我們都癡癡地在等，你們能否在這個部分給予多多的協助？"],["陳主計長淑姿：計畫型的補助是由各部會負責，不是我們……"],["羅委員明才：對，我們已經提出計畫型的補助，深坑輕軌大概是二百八十多億元，希望中……"],["陳主計長淑姿：那要看交通部審查的情形。"],["羅委員明才：如果審查通過的話，主計長這邊可不可以多多支持？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果交通部審查通過，它會按財力分級去做分配，分配之後編列預算，我們就會來支持。"],["羅委員明才：請大力支持，因為我們等很久了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：再繞回來，關於軍人加薪的部分，剛剛很多委員都提到，我們已經通過了，你們為什麼不編？關於這一點，請你多多的考量，軍人保家衛國非常的辛苦，該加薪的部分一定要予以照顧。此外，還有退休軍警消基本的權益及義務也應該要多多照顧，現在萬物飆漲，但是這些最基層的公務人員得不到政府的關懷，今年度有沒有加薪？"],["陳主計長淑姿：今年沒有加薪。"],["羅委員明才：明年度會不會加薪？"],["陳主計長淑姿：115年度沒有加薪。"],["羅委員明才：也沒加啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：今年（114年度）有加薪。"],["羅委員明才：115年度沒加啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有加。"],["羅委員明才：但是今年也沒加幾趴啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：4%。"],["羅委員明才：4%啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：3%。"],["羅委員明才：3%嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：原本雞腿便當是70元，現在都漲到140元了，漲了1倍，結果你們只加薪3元。"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經連續二年加薪了。"],["羅委員明才：等於一個便當多了70元，中央只給我3元，不足的67元要找誰拿啊！現在公務人員的心情就是加3%趕不上物價飆漲的速度，怎麼辦？這個就是我們的考量。現在國內的情況就是年輕人不敢生，生了怕養不起，造成了國安的問題，希望主計長可以多多想一下，在錢的方面多多照顧年輕人及地方，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝羅明才委員。接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-20-2","speakers":["李坤城","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","羅明才","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","林思銘","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00003"}}},{"id":"164162","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164162","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6fd3cf66e4bb05018b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef25dc74b8a2e1778a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:20:24 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有請顧主委 請顧主委齊委員齊委員 主委今天我請拜託各位創業的事情 別說拜託 每年週一的核卡字體六堆建炮車 每年六堆創業的"},{"start":26.543,"end":53.213,"text":"公園的民俗活動明年判的規模應有應得但是補助的錢都沒有增加過從一百一十四元一年都兩百萬那不少的主委我們在佛堂那裡六堆還有一個傳統民俗的一個慶典而且是全國的客庄十二大的一個節慶活動而且有幾個天使"},{"start":54.942,"end":83.624,"text":"跟您的報告 兩百兩百萬 下落多忙民營有很大困難因為民營才化法 關於合理費不出本帖封政府的鑑一般鑑一般變一百萬所以都沒有增加有限公司所以不出本帖封的法律一百萬上限"},{"start":85.013,"end":89.74,"text":"所以才化法 影響我們這個醫生我們提出的民營的醫生 設為西醫人我們民營的醫生 目前提出3519主委 面對這樣的問題我們有什麼想法嗎 要怎麼處理"},{"start":103.899,"end":108.443,"text":"因為藝術界現實的人才能夠考慮我們的藝術變適做的補儲本提供的方法很安定因此藝術界有跟國研室提宣的時間有相同的範圍"},{"start":122.294,"end":127.596,"text":"本議會首席為本體防政府第一像體防政府在體溫的時節一家就要有想法要體內的溫度 因爲納土屬固定的一家要選高利益百度超過一家要選高利益百當時問題"},{"start":140.871,"end":151.46,"text":"主委,我們要做好注意,面對暗斗的嚇到鄉親的期待錢沒了,我們要想辦法啦,不是因為說,總之我們要...我們要原民費暗斗錢,讓他們的客戶,他們的人生這樣,壓到總批,這樣想到沒所謂的"},{"start":162.146,"end":166.389,"text":"我們跟希望政府合作的時候,就是過去用補儲的方式補儲金就這樣,我們有其他合作的方式嗎?"},{"start":191.581,"end":198.661,"text":"屏東現在政府 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我們要看到我們醫生變色的地方相對要沒有增加所以其實我們出師主管全部都有提出我們的問題就嚇得又哭變眼了所以也有一個大的問題"},{"start":371.913,"end":394.808,"text":"因為當然我們仍然努力採訪香港人重新來討論尤其我們總統說我們要均衡台灣發展否則六都和非六都天壤地別也不公平尤其我們合作安靜地提防安土安好文化繼續來做這件事情這樣好不好好強行努力強行強行努力感謝感謝齊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時20分）謝謝主席，有請古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，要拜託你一個很重要的事情……"],["古主任委員秀妃：不要說拜託。"],["徐委員富癸：我們做為客家子弟，六堆尖炮城是我們六堆很重要的過年民俗活動，每年辦的規模越來越大，但補助的錢都沒有增加過，從112年到114年，一年有200萬，這並不夠辦耶，主委。這麼大的活動是我們六堆很重要的傳統民俗慶典，而且是全國客庄12大的節慶活動，請問這個有機會來幫忙嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，之前200萬下來，明年又更困難，明年因為財劃法的關係，我們客委會補助給地方政府的減了一半……"],["徐委員富癸：少了多少錢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：減一半，變成100萬，沒有增加又還變更少，要補助給地方活動的錢以100萬為上限了，所以財劃法影響我們自己的預算，我們提出來明年的預算少了四億多，我們明年的預算目前提35.9億。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，現在面對這樣的問題，你有什麼想法嗎？要怎麼處理？"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為這是很現實的，財劃法通過之後，我們的預算變少，可以補助給地方的餅就這麼大，所以我們跟各縣市在10月的時候召開了一個會議，這個消息要給地方政府知道，請地方政府在提案的時候自己就要有想法，要提哪些案子，因為額度是固定的。"],["徐委員富癸：自己要先過濾一次就對了？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，自己要先過濾一次。"],["徐委員富癸：但問題是，你現在當主委了，面對這麼多客家鄉親的期待，錢沒有了要怎麼辦？也要想辦法，我認為我們不能就這樣，原民會這麼多錢，客委會卻越來越少，一些長輩想到這裡就睡不著耶！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們跟地方政府來合作看看，過去用補助的方式，現在補助減少了，我們來看有沒有其他合作的方式可以維持這樣的規模。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我知道現在沒錢沒辦法做事情，但是像這樣的補助案，我認為還是要檢討，好的案子、重要的案子、有意義的案子應該要怎麼處理，它明年變成補助100萬，屏東縣政府自己還要墊很多錢，屏東縣政府明年也少了42億，很可憐耶！要怎麼辦？要想辦法看看該怎麼處理，好不好？我們一定會支持你，但是要針對預算不足的事情，我想你應該要給卓院長知道，該補助給你們的錢要補，不然我現在回到屏東，看到我們的鄉親，大家都問怎麼沒有補助屏東？沒有照顧到屏東。我們兩個人都一樣，都面對很大的壓力。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["徐委員富癸：我接下來要問的問題也一樣，關於客家幣的政策，我上次有質詢過，像屏東的特約商店從67間變到現在才128間，輸其他的客家縣市鄉鎮很多，你有什麼推廣的計畫？要怎麼處理？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們下一次會針對商店再一次發送通知，邀請大家來加入特約商店，所以商店自己還是要……"],["徐委員富癸：是我們宣傳推廣的做得不夠，還是怎麼樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這也有可能，另外，它是行動支付，他們要有這個……"],["徐委員富癸：可能老人家不方便。"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，可能有很多店沒有辦法。"],["徐委員富癸：這要怎麼調整？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們會有專門的業者去教商店要怎麼申請數位支付，以及內容要怎麼處理，但前提是店家要願意加入，前提是這樣。"],["徐委員富癸：我看這個應該要結合我們的財稅單位，看要怎麼輔導，因為方便、好用，也要會用，它的手續這麼繁瑣，有的老人家就不要了，又不是每個地方都有年輕人幫忙處理。"],["古主任委員秀妃：OK，我們主動來跟店家邀請。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，關於文化發電機的部分，我知道你會幫忙，但是我們還有很多地方需要處理，包含要怎麼重新盤點，因為現在預算沒了，我也很擔心客語傳承的問題，學校社團、藝文活動都沒有錢可以補助了，我擔心這會變成文化斷層，這很重要，也很麻煩耶！"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們也很擔心，我們也看到預算變少了，地方相對也沒有增加，所以其實我們各處室的主管也都有提出這樣的問題，客家又比較邊緣，這是一個大問題。"],["徐委員富癸：我認為我們要努力看財劃法要怎麼樣重新來……"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該要、應該要……"],["徐委員富癸：大家一起討論過，尤其我們總統說的，要均衡臺灣發展，不可以六都和非六都是天壤之別，這不公平，尤其我們客庄這麼漂亮的地方，這麼多、這麼好的文化要繼續做更多事情，這樣好不好？一起努力。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，一起努力。"],["徐委員富癸：好，感謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝徐委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","接下來，高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員，高金素梅委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員高金素梅、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164161","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164161","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6fb69d87bed7e7081b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef25dc74b8a2e1778a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:10:35 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16%所以像这些我们就发现你每5年才知道所以这个东西每年每年还是可以统计才对包含还有我们这个客家特别是我们的客庄地区人口流失"},{"start":252.108,"end":280.442,"text":"人口流失很多那你又要振興客庄的經濟那人口你又留不住這是很大的問題所以這一塊我們希望還是可以來研討一下看看不然三年嘛三年總要這個或者是我們只要換一個主委上來可能都要先確認一下了解一下現況這是第一個那再來就是我們這個看到"},{"start":282.386,"end":307.182,"text":"我们这个客家币我们客家币我们这个客家币这个花费那客家币最主要我们是希望可以振兴客庄的经济推动客语的传承那可是我们好像都没有振兴到客庄的经济尤其你们客家币的这个评估它的成效我发现"},{"start":308.402,"end":323.648,"text":"前後一直變化你們那個成效好像是隨你喊的沒有啦 因為一開始我們定的每個人領用的額度沒按到"},{"start":325.73,"end":343.249,"text":"五百八百後來是一千所以那個政策會一直討論一直討論最後才會定案那目前我們今年的這個客家幣好像預計發出重簽的是二十五萬四千七百二十二分"},{"start":346.152,"end":350.914,"text":"對 28萬那28萬4722份那但是你們評估的效益因為我發現我們這個客家幣是希望他們去客庄消費甚至我看你們都預估一個人會帶另一個人你們都覺得他最少會帶一位平均帶原來是根據"},{"start":376.227,"end":391.877,"text":"官网署这样子的推广但是不太适合客家币为什么因为你觉得他会带一个人但实际上我们发现你们可以去了解这客家币抽到以后他可能就是个人的日常消费"},{"start":392.967,"end":405.903,"text":"他可能就个人日常消费有一些也许他不再客装的他必须要去客装可能会有一些所以这一个部分的评估效益"},{"start":406.738,"end":435.637,"text":"我們感受沒有在振興我們客家所以我時間的關係我特別要提出來我們是不是可以振興客庄經濟那一般人尤其你又希望帶動消費的話一般人就是吃喝玩樂嘛對不對所以我們是不是可以扶植一些比較有特色的客家飲食包含比如說你講板條板條到處都有但是特別有特色的或者是你辦個比賽"},{"start":437.458,"end":455.546,"text":"那在客庄区全国的客庄区办比赛每个区块他真的很有特色他得奖的你特别扶植他然后他又特别有特色的你可以请一些专家来一些评审他们来评那特别有特色的"},{"start":456.386,"end":484.92,"text":"所有人听了知道以后他会带动一种观光效果那所以客家的美食是我指的是有特色因为我们客家美食到处都有那你到处都有最后好像也没有那种吸池效应还有点心客家的点心也是那有一些比较有特色的像这个牛粉水你不要动动动动你不要吃苦那所以"},{"start":485.32,"end":508.721,"text":"我們可以去找出這種特色甚至你們透過辦比賽找出特別有特色的你也可以特別的扶植我們總是希望我們納稅人的錢那客委會在用的時候真的能夠用出有成效然後再來就是客家的人口客家的語言客家的文化我們真正是能夠保存的"},{"start":510.522,"end":535.365,"text":"什麼其餘的意見要同時討論對 所以有一些細項我想我們這一個會期也剛好省預算在預算的時候我們可以在細部的來討論所以我們是支持 非常支持客委會我們也希望我們客家文化整個可以真的傳承而且保存下來"},{"start":536.046,"end":537.411,"text":"所以我們共同來努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時10分）謝謝主席，有請古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：徐委員，你好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。今天有一些我覺得蠻重要的問題，沒關係，我國語、客語摻雜，希望大家可以關注。首先，我請問你，我們客家委員會很重要的任務之一是要推動我們的客語還有客家文化，甚至振興我們客庄的經濟，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是有一點我很好奇，我們主委上任以來，應該要了解整個臺灣客家重點發展區，譬如講客家話的人的情況，逐年來看我們的政策實施有沒有一些成果，過去我們客家文化重點發展區都有一些數據，客委會從105年到110年都會去分析這些數據，怎麼110年以後就沒有了？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，這個調查是5年一次，所以105年、110年做過，接下來就是明年115年，5年調查一次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：5年才調查一次？這樣不行，因為我們一次政權是4年，那都不知道那4年做得怎麼樣，當然這中間可能是跨兩個政權。原來是因為這樣，這個是不是應該要調一下，譬如改成2年或3年？"],["古主任委員秀妃：一開始是每年都調查，後來是2年一次，後來是5年一次，因為會請專家學者來諮詢、來進行社會研究調查……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那數據是怎麼出來的？"],["古主任委員秀妃：社會研究學者就說，一個比較可以長期看到的趨勢是5年，所以就採用了學者的建議，5年來做一次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是這樣喔？那我就覺得很危險了，因為我們看到從105到110年，整體客家民眾能夠聽懂客語的比例就下降了8%，你知道吧？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這5年尤其主委上任以後，這兩年客委會的預算每年快百億……"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有也將近，80億以上嘛，加上之前的……"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有啦，一年沒有啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦，兩年啦，兩年加起來有80億啦。"],["古主任委員秀妃：一年才41億。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有啦，預算一年就三、四十億嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：不能用兩年加起來算啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，兩年是說你的任期，你現在在做的這兩年。好啦，每年幾十億，這樣總可以了吧？每年幾十億這樣子花，結果我們都看不到成果，不管是聽得懂客語的比例下降，還是有客語聽說能力的跌幅，當然重點是客庄，但非客庄地區也跌了16%，快20%，像這些你每5年才知道，還是應該每年統計才對。還有我們客庄地區的人口流失很多，你又要振興客庄的經濟，但人口你又留不住，這是很大的問題。所以這一塊我們希望還是可以來研討一下，看看能不能改成3年，或者是只要換一個主委上來就調查一次，可能都要先確認一下，了解一下現況，這是第一個。","再來就是客家幣，客家幣最主要是希望可以振興客庄的經濟，推動客語的傳承，可是我們好像都沒有振興到客庄的經濟，尤其你們對客家幣成效的評估，我發現前後一直變化，那個成效好像是隨你喊的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：不是啦，因為一開始我們訂的每個人領用的額度沒這麼多，就500、800……"],["徐委員欣瑩：後來是1,000嘛？"],["古主任委員秀妃：所以那個政策會一直討論，到最後才會定案。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我們今年的客家幣好像中簽的是25萬4,722份。"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，再加上給客語認證通過的還有客語家庭的3萬份，總共發了28萬份。"],["徐委員欣瑩：28萬4,722份，但是你們評估的效益，因為這個客家幣是希望他們去客庄消費，我看你們都預估一個人最少會帶另一個人。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是根據觀光署的推估，不是我們自己。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是不太適合客家幣，因為你覺得他會帶一個人，實際上我們發現，你們可以去了解，這客家幣抽到以後，它可能就是個人的日常消費，有一些人也許不在客庄，他必須要去客庄，可能會有一些，這個部分的效益評估，我們感覺沒有在振興我們客庄經濟。因為時間的關係，我特別要提出來，我們是不是可以振興客庄經濟，尤其你又希望帶動消費的話，一般人就是吃喝玩樂，對不對？所以我們是不是可以扶植一些比較有特色的客家飲食，譬如粄條，粄條到處都有，但是特別有特色的，或者你可以在全國客庄區辦比賽，找出每個區塊真的很有特色的、得獎的，特別去扶植它，你也可以請一些專家來評選出特別有特色的，等到所有人知道以後就會帶動一種觀光效果。所以客家美食，我指的是有特色的，因為我們客家美食到處都有，最後好像也沒有磁吸效應，還有客家點心也是，有一些比較有特色的像牛汶水，現在還有很多人沒吃過，我們可以去找出這種特色，甚至你們可以透過辦比賽找出特別有特色的，特別去扶植，我們總是希望客委會在用納稅人的錢的時候，真的能夠有成效。再來就是客家的人口、客家的語言、客家的文化，希望能夠真正的保存，可以嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，謝謝徐委員，你的意見我會跟同仁來討論、來執行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，有一些細項，我們這一個會期也剛好審預算，在審預算的時候，我們可以再作細部的討論。所以我們非常支持客委會，我們也希望客家文化可以真的保存而且傳承下來，我們共同來努力。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，謝謝徐委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請葉元之委員，葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員，賴惠員委員不在。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164160","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164160","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db63b4ee306471fc955b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef25dc74b8a2e1778a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:05:18 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主席我們議會同仁請我們客委會我們的谷主委請谷主委"},{"start":13.333,"end":33.899,"text":"好 主委好主委 針對你擔任我們課委會主委其實本席看了很多資料你在不管是在影視的作品以及仙島 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板橋也是很多那未來是不是來籌授一個客家的記錄"},{"start":245.027,"end":261.34,"text":"那就是說,天風上又要思求,土地沒問題,也就是說,現有的建物沒問題,要改革,要客家聚落。天風上,有陰煙,天出來,我們就要去聽書。所以,天風要去體安啦。"},{"start":266.124,"end":284.092,"text":"好那我也是拜託我們的主委是不是跟新北市市政府來聯絡因為現在新北市很多都是我們的七段徵收的土地那土地剩餘的公有的土地也是非常多我們還是要主動嘛"},{"start":284.392,"end":288.955,"text":"主動跟他們聯繫好不好好 如果做得像我那樣三壓緊急處理處長就跟神伯師主動聯絡看有要請求嗎 提案好的 好 謝謝主委 謝謝你感謝 感謝王美燕好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時5分）好，主席、我們與會同仁。請我們客委會古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，針對你擔任我們客委會主委，其實本席看了很多資料，不管是在影視作品以及宣導、戲劇的獎項，都是算不錯的成績，所以現在大家都在討論就是我們的客家幣，客家幣其實你宣傳的力道還是不夠，因為很多人都不曉得，你說發放了28萬個，1個就代表1,000塊，那就2億8,000萬，2億8,000萬你真正照顧到我們客家族群，還有一般的民眾來抽獎，你認為效果好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：確實我們的宣傳還不夠，所以很多民眾不知道，發客家幣到目前為止，回饋回來大部分是支持的面向比較多。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為很多民眾他們都還是不清楚。本席比較納悶在我們的新北市，領了客家幣也沒有辦法去新北市消費，在新北市都沒有設據點來兌換消費。我們客家族群在新北市算是一個非常多的族群落腳地，為什麼新北市會沒有？這一點是不是主委你來做說明，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們這次是第一次針對客家重點發展區，70個鄉鎮市區來做招募商店的工作，70個重點發展區以外的部分，我們就沒有開放，所以新北市、臺北市就不會進來。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為我們新北市是一個客家族群非常龐大的人口聚集地方，光是新北市，我們客家族群好像六十七萬多，你今年要是辦得不錯，是不是考慮明年在新北市也有一個可以讓我們客家族群消費的地方？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們明年第二次辦理的時候，這個意見我會納入來思考，是不是要開放在70個重點發展區以外的地方，包括新北市的商店也可以來運用？我們會來考慮，我們會來思考。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，這樣才能便利到我們所有的客家族群以及民眾，大家一起來消費，也刺激我們的產業觀光。本席這邊還有一個建議，就是在新北的地方，我們的聚落非常多，但唯獨就是沒有一個聚會所，所以人口那麼多，你說設在三鶯有一個客家園區，那你看本席的選區土城，土城也是有非常多的客家族群，板橋也是很多，未來是不是來籌措一個客家的聚落？"],["古主任委員秀妃：如果地方上有這個需求，土地沒問題，或是現有的建物沒問題，要設立客家聚落，地方上有意願提出來，我們就會來幫忙，所以地方要提案。"],["吳委員琪銘：我也是拜託我們的主委，是不是跟新北市市政府來聯絡，因為現在新北市很多都是區段徵收的土地，剩餘的公有土地也非常多，我們還是要主動嘛，主動跟他們聯繫，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，我現在就可以請我們產業經濟處代理處長來跟新北市主動聯絡，看有沒有這個需求，再來提案。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝吳委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164159","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164159","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6ba5776b6da64456db8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef2f0a2f51fd5bd8c715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:57:24 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辛苦了那我們每次在詢答課委會的時候 鼓主委都全程客語"},{"start":23.335,"end":50.215,"text":"讓我們也有機會來學習一點點客語但是我還是帶著翻譯的耳機來來來來詢答你那我首先那針對其實剛剛我們幾乎所有的委員會的委員對於客家幣都非常的關心之外那我針對於客委會的業務報告裡面強化後生海外交流拓展人文視野關懷視野的這一個海外青年"},{"start":51.549,"end":70.501,"text":"英語服務營這個活動我其實非常的表示肯定跟關心那這個其實讓我們現在的客家莊我們比較客家比例比較高的客家莊裡面的這些學童"},{"start":71.536,"end":100.61,"text":"他可以講課語的比例我們有沒有辦法來做一個統計或者是大概的情況是怎樣我們課委會現在的掌握狀況是怎樣有統計 目前學長說學員說合法的比例沒有多13歲以下沒有多百分之十多大那跟其實一般我們的學校裡面小朋友講閩南語的比例可能也是差不多的對 合法合法都多大"},{"start":101.897,"end":129.829,"text":"那一樣如果在海外這一些不管是講閩南語的可以學閩南語的甚至他也是客家人的後代可以學習客語的那透過這一個強化後生海外交流這個活動我相信會有蠻大的一個助益那所以我在這邊看到這個名額是大概只有20位我希望或者是30位那我希望"},{"start":130.287,"end":159.382,"text":"客委會這邊跟僑委會這邊是不是在明年度也可以來討論要增加相關的這些名額以及地區好我聽到夜間李委員報告求投擺韓國社生意的我來以後說太少了你是不是當然你是不是韓國社我們的名額才會增加對我們希望不管是美洲或者是澳洲或者是歐洲那我們都可以"},{"start":159.961,"end":182.594,"text":"透過巧合會的來推廣讓這個文化可以繼續傳承尤其是語言的部分我針對客家幣再來做一些質詢我們目前客家幣我覺得還蠻有創意的如果說要營造這個客語環境然後要去抽然後有28500份名額對不對28萬份28萬份28萬份名額"},{"start":188.496,"end":213.689,"text":"那每一個名額是可以收到1000塊的客家幣那這1000塊的客家幣他的資格目前我看到的是這樣子有獲表揚的客語家庭成員第二個是2025年通過客語能力認證者那第三個是18到49歲的本國籍國民本國籍民眾那其實我想要建議主委的這邊的是說"},{"start":214.659,"end":224.801,"text":"其實何不從小學或者是國中就開始讓他們有資格來使用這個客家幣呢?感謝李議員我們的媒體的思考雖然正是在學校發言的聲音沒有通過認證但是有在學校使用的作為納豆客家幣在那些客家商店用客家做教育也不錯 也有問題我們要去討論思考好好去調整"},{"start":244.639,"end":267.141,"text":"多年以前麥當勞他大麥克在做促銷你只要去麥當勞講一句講一句類似大麥克的話那你就會得到大麥克的特價我覺得如果說每個小孩都學一句客語的話我覺得這個也是可以思考的方向這邊提供主委做一些參考另外"},{"start":268.979,"end":275.753,"text":"其實客家幣的由來跟文化幣當時也是有一些可能是從這邊發想過來的"},{"start":278.368,"end":305.678,"text":"但是文化幣有出現一些問題那文化幣當時也被收集然後可能打個折用現金賣掉去換一些現金回來客家幣其實我們在網路也遇到這個拋售的問題了那我希望客委會也可以及時的趕快來提出來如果跟文化幣有相關有相同的問題出現的時候我們希望是推廣嘛你先不要講效益有多少我覺得"},{"start":306.378,"end":320.992,"text":"推广就是语言然后进而你刚刚又讲到一个重点就是也可以推展光光再来谈效益那我希望客委会针对这个客家币可能在网路上有这些抛售的问题也提出一个解决的方法"},{"start":322.54,"end":327.425,"text":"好,感謝李委員,那些關於創業的問題,我們會這樣諷刺,目前我們跟文化幣最沒窮用的,那些個人的數位支付錢包,所以那些錢,七、八百多元個人,它無法賣,不能賣。"},{"start":346.603,"end":365.118,"text":"銀翼都用的帳戶 那些帳戶還在跟銀行綁定譬如說不用台芯銀行還是用台灣銀行還用合作金庫 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賀委會業務報告"},{"start":436.431,"end":462.949,"text":"我翻不到過去的這個推廣的跟觀光有關的台三線浪漫大道也曾經被某位委員說台三線是哪三條線主線在哪裡後繼有人啊居然可以把鳳山水庫台電的招標案搞成是前市長要招標的招標案真的是在這邊表達非常的遺憾跟可笑謝謝好感謝李綺燕"},{"start":466.172,"end":466.294,"text":"就是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時57分）請古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝古主委，辛苦了。我們每次在詢答客委會的時候，古主委都全程客語，讓我們也有機會來學習一點點客語，但我還是帶著翻譯耳機來詢答你。","首先，剛剛幾乎我們委員會的所有委員對於客家幣都非常的關心之外，我針對於客委會的業務報告裡面「強化後生海外交流，拓展人文關懷視野」的海外青年英語服務營的這個活動表示非常的肯定跟關心。現在我們的客家庄，客家比例比較高的客家庄學童們，他們講客語的比例有沒有辦法統計？或者大概的情況是怎樣？客委會現在的掌握狀況是怎樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，有統計，目前客庄中的小孩子（13歲以下）說客語的比例不到10%，很低。"],["李委員柏毅：其實跟一般學校裡面小朋友講閩南語的比例可能也是差不多的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，河洛話、客家話都很低。"],["李委員柏毅：一樣，這些在海外不管是講閩南語的，可以學閩南語的，甚至他也是客家人的後代，可以學習客語的，透過這個強化後生海外交流的活動，我相信會有蠻大的助益。我在這邊看到的名額大概只有20位，或者是30位，我希望客委會跟僑委會是不是在明年度可以來討論增加相關的名額以及地區。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，我在這邊跟李委員報告，以前還更少，只有12個，我來以後，我說太少了！要20個，當然20位還很少，我們明年再來增加。"],["李委員柏毅：對，我們希望不管是美洲、澳洲，或者是歐洲，我們都可以透過僑委會來推廣，讓這個文化可以繼續傳承，尤其是語言的部分。","我針對客家幣再來做一些質詢，目前客家幣我覺得還滿有創意的，如果要營造客語環境，然後要去抽，有28,500份名額，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：28萬份。"],["李委員柏毅：28萬份名額，每一個名額是可以抽到1,000塊的客家幣，這1,000塊客家幣的資格，目前我看到的是這樣子，有獲表揚的客語家庭成員，第二個是2025年通過客語能力認證者，第三個是18到49歲的本國籍民眾。其實我想要建議主委的是，其實何不從小學或者是國中就開始讓他們有資格來使用客家幣呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝李委員，我們也在思考正式學客語的這些孩子，他沒有通過認證，但是他有在學客語，那怎麼樣可以拿到客家幣去客家商店用客語跟人做交易，沒錯，這是一個問題，我們要來討論、思考，好好來調整。"],["李委員柏毅：多年以前，麥當勞大麥克在做促銷，你只要去麥當勞講一句類似大麥克的話，你就會得到大麥克的特價。我覺得如果每個小孩都學一句客語的話，這也是可以思考的方向，這邊提供主委做一些參考。","另外，其實客家幣的由來，跟文化幣當時也是有一些……可能是從文化幣這邊發想過來的啦，但是文化幣有出現一些問題，文化幣當時也被收集，然後可能打個折賣掉，去換一些現金回來，客家幣其實在網路也遇到這個拋售的問題了，我希望客委會可以趕快提出來，如果跟文化幣有相同問題出現的時候。我們希望是推廣嘛，你先不要講效益有多少，我覺得推廣語言，進而你剛剛又講到一個重點，就是也可以推展觀光，再來談效益。我希望客委會針對客家幣可能在網路上有這些拋售的問題，也提出一個解決的方法。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝李委員，這是很重要的問題，我們會防止這個狀況。目前我們跟文化幣最不一樣的，是個人的數位支付錢包，就是這個錢直接進入到你個人，他沒辦法賣，不能賣，是進入到你的帳戶，這個帳戶還是跟銀行綁定，譬如你用台新銀行、臺灣銀行，還有合作金庫，是綁定的，所以你賣不出去。"],["李委員柏毅：因為你綁定的關係，這些方法會不會影響到客家幣使用的方便性？"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該是說不會被盜。"],["李委員柏毅：它不是實體券，是綁銀行，這樣就有數位落差的問題，所以你限制是在49歲以下，那49歲以上的呢？像有很多阿伯他們沒有LINE Pay，沒有辦法進去停車場停車，有一些抱怨，其實我們如果要推廣的話，也應該要讓這些有數位落差的人是可以用的。同樣的，小朋友這個叫做帳戶落差，小朋友哪有什麼金融卡，所以客委會應該在推廣的方式，也可以去兼顧到這一些廣泛性。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝李委員，我們在第二階段，這些問題都是要來解決的，如果要開放把這個年齡下降跟提升，整個全齡開放的話，確實這些問題是要思考、要解決的，要先預知問題，在政策上要怎麼處理。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝主委。最後，我翻遍了所有的客委會業務報告，我翻不到過去推廣跟觀光有關的台三線浪漫大道，也曾經被某位委員說台三線是哪三條線、主線在哪裡，後繼有人居然可以把鳳山水庫台電招標案，搞成是前市長要招標的招標案，真的是在這邊表達非常的遺憾跟可笑。謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝李委員。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164158","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164158","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db624576db9d492e167b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef2f0a2f51fd5bd8c715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:45:38 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跟委員報告那價值用公共區來統計已經是收費的一千三百空六千元已經是會帶領一個人利用的基礎的話要提的前提聽言的 我們發放二十八萬份以致投擺的經驗五百二十八萬份全部來使用用七成"},{"start":319.74,"end":324.103,"text":"所以是多少經濟產值經濟產值差不多我有4億多將近5萬4億多將近5億我想請教一下這個客家幣我看到你的報寫說這是今年的創舉我想請教一下就是我們在110年的時候有發行客庄券2.0的專案"},{"start":345.416,"end":368.155,"text":"那我看了一下這個客庄券的專案發覺跟你的客家幣幾乎是一模一樣嘛他在這個這邊說這個專案呢預計發放的金額是預計花費是兩億元提供40萬份客家庄券那當然就每份是500元啊就像你在上個會期在回覆我們的你們本來預計發放40萬嘛只是後來變28萬那這其實就跟客庄券2.0的專案一模一樣啊"},{"start":374.147,"end":401.896,"text":"所以我不曉得為什麼客家幣叫做今年叫創舉只是改一個名稱從客莊卷客家卷變成客家幣那就變成是創新的那我覺得這就是完全不是一個新的政策而是一個舊的政策的一個延續而且您剛提到大概是四到五億因為可能只有七成可是您知道嗎當時在客委會的這份專案報告裡面你知道他提到的"},{"start":402.455,"end":404.139,"text":"剛剛是說花兩億嘛 兩億的預算預估會帶動總產值於16億元"},{"start":410.051,"end":415.254,"text":"也就是說你花了2億8你預估會帶動4億多元可是當時我們客委會只要花2億就可以帶動預計16億的產值所以不是你給自己的標準太低就是低估了現在能夠帶成的一個效益那如果花這麼多錢又沒有辦法達到具體的效益的話那請問一下這個客家幣你覺得因為從現在8月1號開始發放開始使用嘛到明年5月那您覺得這個客家幣目前"},{"start":439.166,"end":445.232,"text":"會有什麼樣的成效呢?您的報告說,我們在思考的問題上,課狀卷是沒有用的就像剛才有肥大肥炎的問題是哪裡不一樣?我們過去有聽說學校送店的一端另外一端,當然是學校發展,但是他沒有提供使用十五年前,學肥肥就在思考說"},{"start":464.988,"end":477.552,"text":"講合法人用的那些沒有在講合法的商店做用合法的交易使用交易那些事情沒有影響它所以我們今天就想要跟用合法的方式因為都高興有客座間的經驗所以我們用合法的方式來創成一個消費網那像這個專案您針對這個部分您覺得如何可以帶動這個客語的一個活化的客語的使用環境"},{"start":492.256,"end":498.142,"text":"你覺得能夠帶來預期多大的效益目前我們看到對我們的米漲業如果有檢討費 米一個月目前已經八 九 兩個月了嘛那檢討會這兩個月你們目前得到的成效是怎樣目前我們整堆民眾跟送店都有本問卷而且門間門員使用合法的比例一高"},{"start":516.536,"end":522.541,"text":"目前使用合法的比例差不多有百分之七成人不多百分之五成我們在問他還有一個問題那就是他有幾分會用主動用合法嗎他都表示說會所以還有一個政策上的引導其實我今天會提出來這個"},{"start":534.611,"end":550.464,"text":"這個問題喔主要就是要點出因為我們現在才用兩個月嘛未來還有到明年的這個使用的時間還有很長的時間所以我希望是這筆錢是能夠發揮真正的效益不管是你要提升課宇的能力或者是帶動經濟的產生這兩大主要的目的"},{"start":552.455,"end":572.596,"text":"都能夠有具體的成效那時間還很長所以我覺得針對剛剛本席所提出來的各項問題希望你們能夠記取過去我們客家莊券的這個實施的一個成果所帶來的效益跟現在你的客家幣想要帶來什麼樣的效果我們還有很長的時間可以去好好的調整跟施行"},{"start":572.964,"end":577.306,"text":"因為其實我想每一份錢都是納稅人的血汗錢我們不該浪費公帑不是把這個錢丟到而且我更重視的這是單次的我們希望還是要有長期的因為這畢竟是短期的一個成效那未來的長期的成效你們要怎麼來去使用而不是就是錢花了花完就沒事了還是希望能夠做到這樣那不好意思最後一個問題是想要請教"},{"start":598.015,"end":621.27,"text":"這個主委就是有關我們在這個課委會有積極推動客家影音這個音劇嘛那我們可以看一下這個最後一頁這個客家影音劇的收視率您可以看一下在觀看次數我現在看到的就最低的大概是69次最高的是大概1321次"},{"start":625.015,"end":644.527,"text":"這是我們2025的專題的客家營運劇那請問一下這個成績主委滿意嗎我想這樣還有進步的空間還要再加強也要宣傳我想請教一下我們客委會的同仁有多少位客家中心一百六十幾位"},{"start":645.66,"end":673.759,"text":"好 如果每個同仁都點也不只69次啊更何況是整個我們客家的鄉親有這麼多幾十萬人所以針對這樣的影音劇的一個收視不是有拍了就好有播了就好而是要怎麼提高大家觀看的次數你才能夠達到真正我們希望達到的一個效果也真正能夠達到你希望能夠推展不管是客家語言或是客家文化的一個效果所以這個部分是不是請主委要特別的這個"},{"start":675.7,"end":688.283,"text":"請同仁能夠特別來去製作不管是大家所希望看的客家的影音劇或者是提高我們觀看的收視人口,好嗎?好,我認同齊委員所說的我認同,所以要向社會鼓勵我認同,完全贊同好,謝謝,謝謝郭主任感謝齊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":372,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時45分）謝謝主席，我們請古秀妃主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：古主委好。古主委，在剛剛客家委員會的報告裡面，我們可以看到內容非常豐富，有涵蓋了客語傳承、青年參與、產業創新、區域建設、影音推廣及國際交流等不同面向的施政成果跟未來展望。本席現在要就您前幾天參加全球客家文化會議上面所提到的，今年是乙未戰爭130週年，每個時代都有該時代面對的困難，2025我們有個惡鄰居說要併吞臺灣，用各種的方式分裂我們。我們都知道乙未戰爭是臺灣近代史上最悲壯的一役，當時的清朝在甲午戰爭戰敗之後簽訂馬關條約，被迫將臺灣割讓給日本，而臺灣人民因為不甘被殖民、被外國侵略，所以爆發了乙未戰爭。乙未戰爭爆發之後，我們的客家鄉親也在中間扮演了一個非常重要的角色，包括我們的乙未三傑也率領客家鄉親浴血奮戰，最後壯烈犧牲。所以主委剛剛提到的，您在全球客家文化會議上面所講的這個2025的惡鄰居是誰？"],["古主任委員秀妃：中國。"],["許委員宇甄：1895的惡鄰居又是誰？"],["古主任委員秀妃：1895客家對抗的是日本殖民政府，2025是中國。"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以1895的惡鄰居是日本，2025的惡鄰居是中國，您是這樣的意思嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，沒錯。"],["許委員宇甄：我們看到二戰抗戰勝利，今年是80週年，賴清德總統在軍人節或是在國慶演說方面都只講終戰，而不講我們是抗戰勝利，而您在乙未戰爭的紀念活動中，也不講抗日，而是改稱抵抗日本現代化的軍事。剛剛您也講了，1895年併吞臺灣的惡鄰居就是日本，客家人抵抗也是事實，但是客委會卻不敢明講，這是在幫日本對外侵略進行美化嗎？而且我們的政府對民族的歷史也避而不談，我們要怎麼去教育下一代所謂的國家尊嚴？客委會補助的抗日三傑舞臺劇，你要叫它怎麼演？客家精神要怎麼傳承？因為乙未三傑的鮮血絕對不是為了抵抗日本現代化的軍事而流，他們是為了不讓臺灣被當作日本殖民地，為的是中華民國的尊嚴，所以他們的鮮血是為了中華民國的尊嚴而流。歷史應該是要說真話，執政者也要有勇氣面對真相。古主委，您覺得呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想沒問題，我們都照事實來講，我在上面講話沒講這麼長，所以沒把所有的歷史全部講出來，我就簡單講，但是大家都很清楚，我們當時面對的是日本要統治臺灣這樣的歷史狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以我們是抗戰勝利80週年，而不是終戰，我們對抗的是日本這個惡鄰居，而不是像你們講的，是對抗日本現代化的軍事而流血。希望這個史實我們要教育給我們的下一代，尤其是我們的客家鄉親、客家三傑，又扮演這麼重要的一個角色，所以還是希望主委在一些公開的場合要提供給客家鄉親一個正確的史實觀念，讓他們很清楚我們客家三傑的鮮血是為了抗戰而流，是為了保衛國家，為了不讓臺灣成為殖民地而做的犧牲，所以這個部分主委是不是能夠做到？"],["古主任委員秀妃：未來我會在發言的時候講得更清楚。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝主委。另外，針對客家幣的政策，您在報告中提到，透過發放28萬4,722份1,000塊的客家幣，可以建構生活化的客語使用環境，並活絡客庄的經濟。另外，發放28萬份的1,000塊客家幣，大概要花兩億八千多萬，請問預估大概會帶來多少的效益？會帶動多大的經濟產值？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，如果依觀光局的統計，一個人的消費是1,306元，一個人會帶另外一個人，以兩個人來計算的話，這是第一個前提。第二個是我們發放28萬份，依照以前的經驗，28萬份不會全部都使用，以7成的領取率來看……"],["許委員宇甄：所以是多少經濟產值？"],["古主任委員秀妃：經濟產值差不多會有四億多將近五億。"],["許委員宇甄：四億多將近五億。我想請教一下，我看到你的報告寫客家幣是今年的創舉，那我想請教一下，在110年的時候有發行客庄券2.0的專案，我看了一下客庄券的專案，發覺跟你的客家幣幾乎是一模一樣，這邊說這個專案預計發放的金額是2億元，提供40萬份客家庄券，當然每份就是500元，就像你在上個會期回復我們的，你們本來預計發放40萬，只是後來變28萬，這個其實就跟客庄券2.0的專案一模一樣啊，所以我不曉得為什麼客家幣今年叫做創舉？只是改一個名稱，從客庄券變成客家幣，就變成是創新的，我覺得這完全不是一個新的政策，而是一個舊政策的延續。","而且您剛剛提到大概是4到5億，因為可能只有7成，可是您知道嗎？當時在客委會的這份專案報告裡面，你知道它提到的……剛剛是說花2億的預算，預估會帶動總產值逾16億元，也就是說，你花了2億8,000萬，預估會帶動四億多元，可是當時客委會只要花2億就可以帶動預計16億的產值，所以不是你給自己的標準太低，就是低估了現在能夠帶來的效益。客家幣是從8月1號開始發放使用到明年5月，如果花這麼多錢，又沒有辦法達到具體效益的話，請問一下，您覺得客家幣目前會有怎麼樣的成效？。"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，我們在思考這個問題的時候認為這跟客庄券是不一樣的，剛才我有回答委員的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：哪裡不一樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們過去有貼「𠊎講客」的商店，這是一端，另外一端是很多人學客語，但是他沒有地方可以使用。十幾年前客委會就在思考，說客語的人要怎麼去會講客語的商店用客語來交易，使用和交易這兩件事情沒有併在一起，所以我們今年就想要用這個方式，因為過去有客庄券的經驗，所以我們用這個方式來串成一個消費網。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，針對這個專案，您覺得如何帶動客語、活化客語使用環境？您預期能夠帶來多大的效益？"],["古主任委員秀妃：目前就我看到的，我們每個月都會有檢討會……"],["許委員宇甄：目前已經8、9月，2個月了嘛。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，2個月。"],["許委員宇甄：目前你們這2個月的檢討會得到的成效怎麼樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：針對民眾跟商店我們都有發問卷，這個問卷會問他們使用客語的比例多嗎？目前使用客語的比例差不多40%，不到50%。我們還問了一個問題，如果下一次有機會，您會主動用客語嗎？他們都表示會，所以這是一個政策上的引導。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，其實我今天會提出來這個問題，主要就是要點出，因為我們現在才用2個月，使用時間是到明年，未來還有很長的時間，所以我希望這筆錢能夠發揮真正的效益，不管是你要提升客語的能力，或者是帶動經濟的產值，你們這兩大主要的目的都能夠有具體的成效，時間還很長，所以針對剛剛本席所提出來的各項問題，希望你們能夠記取過去客家庄券實施成果所帶來的效益，跟現在你的客家幣想要帶來什麼樣的效果，我們還有很長的時間可以去好好的調整跟施行，因為每一分錢都是納稅人的血汗錢，我們不該浪費公帑，不是把這個錢丟到……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我同意。"],["許委員宇甄：而且我更重視的是，這是單次的，我們希望還是要有長期的成效，因為這畢竟是短期的成效，未來長期的成效你們要怎麼去做？而不是錢花了，花完就沒事了，還是希望能夠做到這樣。","不好意思，最後一個問題是想要請教主委，有關客委會積極推動客家影音劇的部分，這個客家影音劇的收視率您可以看一下投影片，在觀看次數的部分，我現在看到最低的大概是69次，最高的大概是1,321次，這是我們2025專題的客家影音劇，請問一下這個成績主委滿意嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我想我們還有進步的空間，還要再加強它的宣傳。"],["許委員宇甄：我想請教一下客委會的同仁有多少位？"],["古主任委員秀妃：加上客家中心有一百六十幾位。"],["許委員宇甄：如果每個同仁都點，也不只69次，更何況我們整個客家的鄉親有這麼多，幾十萬人，所以針對影音劇這樣的收視，不是有拍了就好、有播了就好，而是要怎麼提高大家觀看的次數，才能夠達到我們真正希望達到的效果，也真正能夠達到你希望能夠推展，不管是客家語言或是客家文化的效果。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我認同。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分是不是請古主委要請同仁特別去製作，不管是大家所希望看到的客家影音劇，或者是提高觀看的收視人口，好嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：OK，我認同徐委員所說的，行銷是很重要的，我認同、完全贊同。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝，謝謝古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝許委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","接下來我們請李柏毅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164157","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164157","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6cb9c1e23427254fcb8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef266bd7c4c758768765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:37:11 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四分之一主要是分布在台東市還有我們的縱谷地區像是關山 池上 鹿野這些地方因為這樣的人口的散居導致我們台東的客家文化的傳承這問題更加的嚴峻"},{"start":108.26,"end":130.475,"text":"主任你今天幫我提到說要落實課宇的這個學習生活化但報告裡面除了建立幼兒園的這個課宇環境之外呢那跟生活化比較有關的就是其他的真的像距離生活化的這個都還有一點距離你說正在強調說這個考照的這個技巧的提升"},{"start":131.435,"end":160.097,"text":"那本席認為這個不是政策的重點不是老科技是他要會講比較重要那我想這部分客人應該要重新來思考就是如何用更多的政策工具讓客語的傳承能夠真正的融合我們客家民眾的生活我想這才是真的提升母語能力這一定要從小扎根嘛那本席提出一個小小的建議我想母語的消失不是只有客語包括原住民語的這種情況"},{"start":161.158,"end":181.995,"text":"那但原住民原住民的族語他在傳承上還有一個特殊的一個媒介就是教會因為透過信仰關係他們會上教會像我們收集到很多他們教會是用母語來宣教那相對之下他還是在增加他的使用率那我想像"},{"start":183.427,"end":198.49,"text":"我們中央有園民會他就提供這樣的經費來補助教會用主語來宣教那來保存他的語言那課會是不是也可以參考類似的模式好像很多 今天很多客家的習俗或民間團體甚至廟宇嘛"},{"start":199.291,"end":215.761,"text":"像本時我都講米蘭牛也好 台語也好我們除了平常在家裡面講以外 還有一個情況就是拜拜的時候 廟主都會跟你說嘛你聽說廟主說什麼 你都聽得懂就是我們會有習慣性的說法我想這個在客家庄應該也是可以來試看看"},{"start":218.142,"end":239.002,"text":"讓我們政府來提供這些獎勵政策的誘因讓我們民間合作激發更多的創意然後打破一般我們官方宣傳的框架我們營造更多元的客語的生活環境跟活動讓更多的這個客家族群特別是年輕人小朋友這邊願意來學習客家語言我想這個才是真的有利於我們這個語言的傳承"},{"start":242.077,"end":246.391,"text":"語言是一個文化的根本那語言的學習就是要跟生活連結"},{"start":248.351,"end":273.303,"text":"接著在家學客語透過家庭、社區、民間團體跟學校共同營造這樣講客語的環境才可以讓客語代代相傳我們以台東縣為例我們有制定一個叫幸福台東客家文化傳承計畫這個是由我們政府協助在地的傳統客家聚落的創意設計客家的客庄的人文建設還有產業等等帶動整個"},{"start":275.324,"end":301.665,"text":"科莊的這個新生命具體的做法像是辦一些音樂會啊 戲劇啊或是什麼客家好食活動我想這幾年台東都有辦一些相關的活動藉由這樣讓更多現代年輕人的生活方式呢讓更多的年輕人來學習客家語言文化的這個機會同時也可以推廣本行人在很喜歡的就是吃像客家美食這個部分我覺得這是我一般不同的族群要學習很快出的語言就是美食"},{"start":302.557,"end":331.445,"text":"我想這個可以帶動我們整個客家聚落這個產業跟觀光像我們這幾年在國內非常受到讚賞這個台東的慢食節其實就不少這樣的元素我想這些活動都頗受好評我想本市認為台東縣的這個做法方向是很好的我也希望客會能夠積極的跟我們台東縣政府甚至我們鄉鎮公所來合作依助更多的資源來協助來推廣我們客家的這個文化傳承"},{"start":333.087,"end":348.828,"text":"像我們去年台東市鹿野鄉還有關山鎮公所都有爭取相關的這些經費我記得去年是關山鎮爭取到包括客家文化祭然後語言學習計畫本席也會持續來推我們台東的客家族群"},{"start":349.372,"end":357.421,"text":"向各委會來爭取相關的經費辦理我們相關的一些活動那這邊也要請主委務必全力來支持請問主委這個可不可以來允諾一下感謝召委我們一定會全力支持台東的合格發展還有剛剛召委提到年初免用高費"},{"start":367.662,"end":372.763,"text":"建議學家可以透過廟宇、寺廟系統我相信我們要認真思考,因為在過去幾年來,學費對於廟會、寺廟的付出其實是沒有付出的,沒有付出的、沒有占出的,但是"},{"start":388.367,"end":403.04,"text":"趙薇提到,我們要認真地想思考,是否要補充這座寺廟和這座家有寺廟的儀式活動跟學界的文化存在一起,才能夠運用在結合我們要認真地思考,感謝趙薇提供的意見"},{"start":408.764,"end":433.533,"text":"對 謝謝主委 因為主委本席其實之前有參加過鹿野鄉一個很特別的一個叫大園水之祭他就在紀念早期先民 民 客 員外的私和子群共同開發水源的一個廟宇祭祀活動我覺得這個非常棒 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對不對"},{"start":185.157,"end":199.433,"text":"信用卡應該年輕人比長輩用得多吧所以可以思考看看如果主委你也這樣子覺得的話那你們就去研究看看"},{"start":200.551,"end":225.2,"text":"好感謝總議員你這個做了剛剛很多委員他們講的很多的問題其實也都可以解決了對不對都市裡面的店家什麼的這都可以解決了也不是不用受那個什麼重點發展30%什麼的限制你可以更廣這個那我覺得我先請一下那個我們的陳董事長好"},{"start":231.499,"end":243.891,"text":"客語確實是一直在沒落因為沒有機會講你看我小時候會講我出了社會之後 念書之後我要跟誰講我現在只懂得聽講我也不太敢講了怕講錯 怕被笑不過"},{"start":254.195,"end":264.46,"text":"我覺得大家都很努力在做尤其是像陳柔善你們有辦一些活動或什麼的可是我還是覺得啦我個人覺得你們的這個方向好像是要拍出高品質要得獎要什麼的這些作品"},{"start":279.673,"end":307.342,"text":"我認為現在當務之急是讓更多人去講客家話讓更多人去認同啦這個才是重點啦那你拍出優質的電視劇或拍出得獎的什麼廣播劇我覺得那不是不好但把資源用到不對的地方啦那我們如果有這麼多資源我們有客家電視台我們有"},{"start":309.617,"end":329.497,"text":"客家的廣播電台什麼的我們是不是能夠來辦讓年輕人參與客家歌曲客家的短影音或什麼的讓所有人來參與每個人都是製作人你們不要花那麼多錢每個人都是製作人他可以拍我們客家"},{"start":330.714,"end":359.342,"text":"这一个小村落的一个特别的故事然后这个小村落一个特别的景点或什么让全台湾的所有的这个客家人我认为只要他会用手机用什么的都可以来参与年龄层更大我们来办一个这样子的比赛那有的好的我就给你奖金啊每年来办啊这样是不是更多人来参与"},{"start":359.775,"end":361.807,"text":"我不知道朱伟跟董事长你的看法"},{"start":362.894,"end":367.177,"text":"完全贊同總委員的意見我們目前提出的諮詢有關養生的進入戰我們會參與比賽就像總委員說的連生人都會參與比賽生人的體驗中學生 體學生會符合某種的年齡層來參與比賽 要改善"},{"start":391.412,"end":412.222,"text":"怎麼樣的比賽內容你們可以去啦要分年齡啊或是分什麼內容或什麼其實都可以很多樣化但是如果你一直辦下去的話我覺得這就是一個鼓勵然後一個傳承年輕人也會啊這樣子跟陳董事長你們兩個聊聊天看能不能有具體的做法他已經有"},{"start":415.743,"end":419.006,"text":"同時 什麼一號我們已經工作了我知道什麼一號那個我知道啦我的意思是說能不能夠讓它更普及我每一個人都可以當製作人我們花了那麼多錢啊你只拍出一部啊對不對我們要廣真喔"},{"start":435.76,"end":462.626,"text":"我的意思就是廣正啊所有的人都來啊每一個人我也可以啊廣正喔當然是廣正我也可以去拍我家的前面的小河啊我以前在怎麼樣那邊抓魚什麼的啊這是不是客家傳承文化的一種就是廣正啊然後廣正之後對不對得獎的作品我就給你錢啊對不對而且這個有個好處啊你這個"},{"start":464.882,"end":478.668,"text":"這樣子的話 它傳播率會更高啊妳覺得呢?那個有在做 不敢說 因為報告我們有一個客家影像徵集計畫就在做那件事情 廣正"},{"start":481.381,"end":500.135,"text":"我是覺得如果主委你也認同我覺得我們這樣子來試試看然後年長者的也要特別讓他讓他有參與不然我們就是斷層我們沒有機會講客家話我跟你講你們的客家幣我說真的你這個店家是這樣我進去"},{"start":502.911,"end":528.579,"text":"點菜也不一定全程用客語我必須說真的啦我們說要教育訓練這不是教育訓練的問題啦我講這是生活習慣那有的菜民新的菜民客家話要怎麼講我搞不好我也不會講對不對有的很這個菜民用的很奇怪的你怎麼講我覺得我們要生活化啦好沒問題這樣來"},{"start":532.698,"end":532.719,"text":"弄"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":327,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時28分）請古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委好。早上應該有很多人問到客家幣等很多的問題，我個人確實也覺得散居在都市裡面的這些客家鄉親，尤其是他們開的店，在這次好像有一些被忽略了。我覺得客家幣也不是不好，你們至少有心要讓客家文化、客家語言可以傳承，我覺得出發點是好的，主委，我有一個想法，我們是不是可以溝通看看？就是「𠊎講客」，這個店家就可以，對不對？讓我們客家人有尊榮感、認同感，我覺得也可以再繼續加強。我想請問主委，客家幣明年會不會再繼續？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們希望可以繼續。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，現在有很多的信用卡、有很多的認同卡，那你們有沒有想過由客委會來跟公股銀行來發行一張客家的認同卡？我是客家子弟，我就會第一個辦卡，對不對？像你們這個客家幣或什麼的優惠，如果是用一種辦信用卡的方式，我覺得可以長長久久，主委的想法如何？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝張委員，這是我第一次聽到這樣的建議，我自己沒有思考過，今天張委員提出來，我們可以來認真思考並討論。"],["張委員宏陸：應該可以啦！這個有一個好處，比如說你這次的客家幣是1,000塊，但有可能用同樣的預算，我們跟銀行合作、跟店家合作，可以有更多的優惠，你的1,000塊有可能變成產生1,500塊的價值，會不會這樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會，因為這次客家幣推出來，每一家銀行都是加碼鼓勵，有這樣的作用。"],["張委員宏陸：應該會嘛！所以我覺得主委可以這樣來試試看、來發想看看，而且這個是長長久久的，你們這次的客家幣有限制年齡，我知道你們是希望年輕人多參與，對不對？但信用卡的使用應該是年輕人比長輩還多，對嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：所以可以思考看看，如果主委也是這樣子覺得的話，那你們就去研究看看。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝張委員。"],["張委員宏陸：如果你這樣做了，像剛剛很多委員所講的很多問題其實也都可以解決了，對不對？像都市裡面的店家什麼的，這些都可以解決了，也不用受什麼重點發展30%的限制，你可以更廣啊！","我想請一下陳董事長，客語確實是一直在沒落，因為沒有機會講，你看，我小時候會講，可是我在念書之後、出了社會之後要跟誰講？我現在只是聽得懂，我也不大敢講了，怕講錯會被笑。不過我覺得大家都很努力在做，尤其是像陳董事長，你們有辦一些活動或什麼的，可是我個人覺得你們的方向好像是要拍出高品質、可以得獎的作品，但我認為現在當務之急是要讓更多人去講客家話，讓更多人去認同，這個才是重點，那你拍出優質的電視劇或製作得獎的廣播劇，我覺得那不是不好，不過把資源用到不對的地方了。我們如果有這麼多的資源，我們有客家電視臺、有客家的廣播電臺等等，我們是不是能夠來做年輕人喜歡參與的？像客家歌曲、客家的短影音或什麼，讓所有人來參與，每個人都是製作人，你們不用花那麼多錢，因為每個人都是製作人，他可以拍我們客家小村落中一個特別的故事或這個小村落一個特別的景點，在全臺灣所有的客家人，只要他會用手機都可以來參與，年齡層更廣，我們來辦一個這樣子的比賽，如果有好的作品就發獎金，可以每年來辦，這樣子是不是會有更多人來參與？主委跟董事長的看法怎麼樣？"],["古主任委員秀妃：完全贊同張委員的意見，我們目前在諮詢有關影像的專業人士，我們會舉辦這樣的比賽，就像剛剛張委員說的，連小孩子都可以來參加比賽，包括小孩子和大人、中學生、大學生，會分不同的年齡層來比賽，這個是很好的。"],["張委員宏陸：你們可以去想比賽的內容要怎麼樣，要分年齡或是分什麼內容，其實都可以很多樣化，但是如果你一直辦下去的話，我覺得這就是一個鼓勵，然後是一個傳承，讓年輕人也會想參與啊！主委可以跟陳董事長兩個人聊聊天，看能不能有具體的作法。"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，剛才有同仁拿資料過來，我們在10月1日已經有公告了。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啦！我的意思是說能不能夠讓它更普及，讓每一個人都可以當製作人？我們花了那麼多錢，可是你只拍出一部，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：那就要廣徵喔！"],["張委員宏陸：我的意思就是廣徵，讓所有的人都來啊！每一個人都可以，我也可以啊！"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，要廣徵。"],["張委員宏陸：當然是廣徵，我也可以去拍我家前面的小河，我以前在那邊抓魚或玩什麼啊！這個是不是客家文化的一種傳承？就是廣徵，然後對得獎的作品就發獎金啊！對不對？而且這樣有一個好處，就是它的傳播率會更高，你覺得呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：現在有在做，跟張委員報告，我們現在有一個客家影像故事徵集計畫，就是在做廣徵這件事情。"],["張委員宏陸：好，如果主委也認同這樣，我覺得就這樣子來試試看，然後也要特別讓年長者來參與，不然就是會有斷層，因為我們沒有機會講客家話啊！我跟你講，像你們的客家幣，我說真的，其實我進去店家點菜也不一定全程用客語，我必須說真的啦！"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒錯，現在我們要加強店家的教育訓練。"],["張委員宏陸：這不是教育訓練的問題啦！我跟你講，這是生活習慣，像有些新的菜名用客家話要怎麼講，搞不好我也不會講，對不對？有的菜名很奇怪，你要怎麼用客家話講？我覺得我們要生活化。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，沒問題，我們來努力。"],["主席（許委員宇甄代）：謝謝張宏陸委員、謝謝古主委。","下一位請黃建賓召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164155","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db60019b4352a045a9bb8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef2b88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:19:18 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谷主委有請請谷主委谷主委早安今天我們繼續來討論一下課與認證的一些政策執行的一些地方上的一些狀況這個本席在10月10號的時候在新聞上有看到一個報導說這個課與認證的學生太少"},{"start":29.605,"end":54.879,"text":"因為已經到年底了所以新竹縣政府就追蹤希望說新竹縣的各級學校要加強報名剛好又碰到廉價所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多的工作負擔那就有一些小小的衝突我想藉這樣的一個事件來跟課委會討論一下因為現在大家講課與能力的"},{"start":55.717,"end":81.374,"text":"基礎或初級認證這其實是中央鼓勵大家也鼓勵課與保存希望要讓大家去響應的一個政策目標所以他有若干的測驗那現在看起來都好像是以考試為主但是我想想要請教一下主委的部分這個你每一年在課與認證大概都通過多少人 全國全國一萬五千人左右"},{"start":84.625,"end":103.194,"text":"去年 應該說今年 今年到目前為止通過多少人因為今年齁 都在考試還在考試所以你們都是年底統計嘛所以去年是一萬五 前年前年多一點 再往前一年呢"},{"start":110.034,"end":125.355,"text":"就是說你有沒有整理一個每一年的趨勢有有有我們有資料像出種馬松也出了也有經驗的資料以你 以主委的了解啦這個每一年的人數是增加還是減少減少其實是減少對不對那請問主委減少的原因是什麼"},{"start":128.14,"end":139.549,"text":"感受到居住人員已經在學生的其實已經考過學位 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對 已經考過了對"},{"start":140.839,"end":156.472,"text":"學生人數本來變少 沒錯所以主要是 但是像今年喔 今年有增加過度到目前為止有比去年的同期過度也因此 內部在猜測可能學生幣 課金幣 有一些影響因為通過考試以後 已經做了很多學生幣去做消費"},{"start":166.6,"end":188.32,"text":"客家病嘛 有所謂的一個政策誘因我們回到新竹的這個案例來講啦因為按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情嘛因為鬧上了新聞 他們說這個因為新竹是客家大縣所以說教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣的各國中小分成核心的非核心的然後再開始檢討他的報名人數"},{"start":189.06,"end":193.302,"text":"那我請問 客委會現在有給 比如說各地方政府KPI嗎你每年要通過多少人 做客語驗證跟議員報告齁 新聞黨方寫的沒有這樣我們沒有分什麼核心非核心也沒有齁 但是有一個事情就是我們有一個案子 客語通行與平和同行與平和 也要每一年都有判判了以後 我們有自表"},{"start":214.713,"end":215.373,"text":"那主委喔"},{"start":234.949,"end":249.883,"text":"如果你講說等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛還是有還是有指標那你們現在各個縣市比如說你以桃園來講或者是新竹都可以就是客家人口比較多的地方"},{"start":250.424,"end":259.25,"text":"你有要求說每一年我地方政府要通過要求有多少人通過客語驗證嗎有 因為高菸絲政府不可以這樣分成兩大類一大類就是高菸絲客家縣市客家縣市嘛那一大堆那是非客家嘛你以客家縣市來講"},{"start":270.077,"end":274.379,"text":"欸 客家縣市 因為喔 它的營求數 客家營求數都一度它的公務營業 還有學生的通告比你的認證就要有一度那你的民營業都會累積上去所以 它會有指標所以會有指標如果縣市政府 地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事?呃 它的評比到最後競賽 它的名次就會往下降"},{"start":296.872,"end":325.806,"text":"台湾民事往下讲会影响你们给地方的辅助或什么的吗影响只有奖金而已我现在提醒主委的是现在因为你讲逐年的人数他其实有一点递减的状况那递减的状况其实表示一个事就是了解这个政策而且去参与去考试的人他其实都去过了嘛就是你不可能突然之间跑出很多人然后去参加嘛第二个是本身有少子化那你用KPI我是建议不要跟"},{"start":326.686,"end":344.462,"text":"譬如說補助跟預算掛鉤啦你不要去造成地方政府的壓力啦對 我不希望有這種狀況你應該是鼓勵嘛好 鼓勵性質本席覺得OK你可以做保留啦那另外我要再回到新竹這個案子喔如果你們講說你們有一定到底是你們主導還是教育部主導因為向韓其實兩個單位嘛因為你要承辦這些考試等等的其實主管的機關是在學校哈比飛 潘音箏 那哈比飛"},{"start":353.49,"end":365.556,"text":"你辦驗證嘛那我的意思是說怎麼劃定核心區非核心區啊然後有多少人去我們不是說核心非核心那那個是教育部的意見嗎還是先主議員自己說的先主議員自己說我們在分類客家客家提起跟非客家地區"},{"start":375.372,"end":396.382,"text":"因為他是講說被教育部盯上 是新竹縣政府的回應那我希望是這樣 推克宇都很好 我們也希望用鼓勵的方式來做處理但是客觀上來講 每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆也就是說因為人數 宣傳達到了極限所以他的人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候我倒不會像其他人一樣要求說你每年KPI一定要達標"},{"start":397.102,"end":406.347,"text":"而是你要有一定的彈性來做做檢討比如說你要了解覆蓋率啊我的我的課餘認證通過的比例按照佔客家人口的比例大概達到什麼時候他可能會撞牆那你的這個"},{"start":407.509,"end":436.953,"text":"KPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正啦不要講叫亞苗助長就是說大家好意希望他多學但是多學的時候他沒有辦法執行的時候那這個政策等於是空轉啦那最後一天的時間我再請問除了考試之外啊這個你們課委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考就是說有沒有什麼別的方式可以來驗證或者是用比較生活化比較簡單的方式來鼓勵課宇的普及跟應用呢你們有沒有做過其他的討論面對這個KPI考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下有沒有新的方向"},{"start":437.513,"end":441.417,"text":"有 目前我們針對無窮用年齡層的學生生育都有無窮用的做法比如說像高中、高四、高中有三一年、高九、九十年課程就融入他們的彈性課程裡面"},{"start":454.813,"end":473.368,"text":"從學生學習的意念與理解學校文化與語言的意念增加去讀所以要做出一種方法對於優異學生有限有另外一種 比方說曾經是教學"},{"start":474.93,"end":483.619,"text":"現在已經全部合法的環境 因為生育的優異 差不多兩禮拜左右可以躺可以講 可以吃 所以有各種方法我們都會用無窮用的推動 會點下去就像VN說的 去思考無窮用的方法"},{"start":497.933,"end":518.854,"text":"這個相關不同的方式還有你我覺得近五年就是你有開始推課與認證考試近五年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例我希望課委會會後提供一份資料讓我們來做追蹤參考還有你未來有沒有什麼其他的一個因應的方式我們用更多元的方式然後也更順暢的方式來做處理這是本期今天質詢的建議好不好感謝紐委員感謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時19分）謝謝主席，古主委有請。"],["主席：古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：古主委早安。"],["古主任委員秀妃：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天我們繼續討論客語認證政策執行的一些地方上的狀況，本席10月10號在新聞上看到一個報告說客語認證的學生太少，因為已經到年底了，所以新竹縣政府就追蹤，希望新竹縣各級學校要加強報名，剛好又碰到連假，所以學校的基層老師當然就增加了很多工作負擔，有一些小小的衝突。我想藉這樣的一個事件跟客委會討論一下，因為現在大家講客語能力的基礎或初級認證，這其實是中央鼓勵大家，也鼓勵客語保存，希望大家響應的一個政策目標，所以有若干測驗，而現在看起來都好像是以考試為主。","但是我想請教主委的部分，每一年客語認證大概都通過多少人、全國？"],["古主任委員秀妃：全國一萬五千人左右。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年到目前為止通過多少人？"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為今年到12月還在考試。"],["牛委員煦庭：還在考試。所以你們都是年底統計嘛？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，年底統計。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以去年是一萬五，前年呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：就我所知，應該是前年會多一些。"],["牛委員煦庭：前年多一點，再往前一點呢？就是你有沒有整理出每一年的趨勢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，有資料。請處長馬上印出來，今年的資料。"],["牛委員煦庭：以主委的了解，每一年的人數是增加還是減少？"],["古主任委員秀妃：減少。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實是減少，對不對？那請問主委，減少的原因是什麼？"],["古主任委員秀妃：減少有幾個原因，一個是學生已經考過，合格的他就不會再來考。"],["牛委員煦庭：已經考過了，對。"],["古主任委員秀妃：外一方面，學生人數越來越少。"],["牛委員煦庭：學生人數越來越少，沒錯。就是……"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是像今年有增加很多，到目前為止，比去年的同期更多，猜測可能是因為客家幣的原因而有一些影響，通過考試以後可以拿客家幣去消費。"],["牛委員煦庭：客家幣，就是有所謂的一個政策誘因。","我們回到新竹的這個案例來講，按照新竹縣政府回應這個事情，因為鬧上了新聞，他們說因為新竹是客家大縣，所以教育部跟客委會就有鎖定而且要求全縣各國中小分成核心、非核心的，然後再開始檢討他的報名人數。那我請問，客委會現在有給比如各地方政府一個KPI嗎？每一年要通過多少人數、做客語認證？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，新聞上面所寫的，沒有這樣，我們沒有分什麼核心、非核心，也沒有。但有一個事情，就是我們有一個客語為通行語的評核，每一年都有辦，辦了之後，我們有指標，根據所有項目的指標統計分數以後做競賽，就可以拿到獎金，第1名會有1,000萬，第2名500萬，類似的遞減成300、200萬，所以各縣市政府很拚。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，如果你講的，等於是客委會其實沒有給地方政府明確的KPI嘛？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是有？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有各類指標。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是有指標？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你們現在各個縣市，比如以桃園來講，或者是新竹都可以，就是客家人口比較多的地方，你有要求每一年地方政府要有多少人通過客語驗證嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，因為各縣市政府分兩大類，一大類叫做客家縣市，一大類的……"],["牛委員煦庭：是非客家的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：嗯，所以……"],["牛委員煦庭：依客家縣市來講。"],["古主任委員秀妃：客家縣市因為他的客家人口數多一點，他的公務人員還有學生通過認證的比例就會多一點，每一年都會累計上去，所以有指標。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以會有指標？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果縣市政府、地方政府沒有達成指標會發生什麼事？"],["古主任委員秀妃：他的評比到最後競賽，他的名次就會往下降。"],["牛委員煦庭：他的名次會往下降，會影響你們給地方的補助或什麼的嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：會影響他的獎金。"],["牛委員煦庭：影響只有獎金而已？"],["古主任委員秀妃：獎金而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在提醒主委，因為你講逐年的人數其實有一點遞減的狀況，遞減的狀況其實表示一件事，就是了解這個政策而且參與考試的人，他其實都去過了嘛！就是不可能突然之間跑出很多人去參加。第二個是少子化，那你用KPI，我是建議不要跟比如補助及預算掛鉤，你不要造成地方政府的壓力，我不希望有這樣的狀況。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒有，只有影響獎金，因為……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是鼓勵嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：嗯。"],["牛委員煦庭：鼓勵性質本席覺得OK，你可以保留。","我要再回到新竹這個案子，到底是你們主導還是教育部主導？因為現在看起來是兩個單位，要承辦這些考試等等的，其實主管機關是在學校……"],["古主任委員秀妃：客委會辦認證。"],["牛委員煦庭：你辦認證。但我的意思是，劃定核心區、非核心區，然後有劃人數……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們沒有核心、非核心，剛才說的那個……"],["牛委員煦庭：那個是教育部的意見嗎？還是……"],["古主任委員秀妃：新竹縣自己說的，我們的分類是客家地區和非客家地區。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，因為他是講被教育部盯上了，這是新竹縣政府的回應。我希望是這樣，推客語都很好，我們也希望你用鼓勵的方式來處理，但是客觀上來講，每一個政策一定會遇到撞牆嘛！也就是因為人數、宣傳達到了極限，所以人數可能沒有辦法繼續往上的時候，我倒不會像其他人一樣要求你每年的KPI一定要達標，而是你要有一定的彈性來做檢討。比如你要了解覆蓋率，客語認證通過的比例占客家人口的比例，大概達到什麼時候它可能會撞牆，那你KPI的人數就要做一個合理的調整跟修正。不要揠苗助長，比如大家好意希望他多學，但是他沒有辦法執行的時候，這個政策等於是空轉。","最後一點點時間我再請問，除了考試之外，客委會裡面有沒有做過一些思考，就是有沒有什麼別的方式可以來認證，或者是用比較生活化、比較簡單的方式來鼓勵客語的普及跟應用呢？你們有沒有做過其他的討論，面對這個KPI、考試的政策可能會撞牆的情況之下，有沒有新的方向？"],["古主任委員秀妃：有，目前我們針對不一樣年齡層的學生、小朋友們，會有不一樣的作法，比如說國小、國中、高中有12年國教校訂課程，就來融入其彈性課程裡面，像這樣的效果很大，學生學習的意願跟理解客家文化及語言的意願增加很多，所以這個就是一種方法。對幼兒還有另外一種，比如說沉浸式教學，讓他們沉浸在一個全部客語的環境，因為幼兒差不多兩個禮拜就會聽、會講，速度很快，所以有各種方法，我們都會因為不一樣的推動而停下來像委員所說的去思考不一樣的方法。"],["牛委員煦庭：像這些不同的方式，還有從你們開始推客語認證考試在近5年通過的人數跟各縣市的比例，我希望客委會在會後提供一份相關資料讓我們來做追蹤、參考。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：還要說明你未來有沒有什麼其他的因應方式，因為我們要用更多元也更順暢的方式來做處理，這是本席今天質詢要提出的建議，請主委參考。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來我們請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164154","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164154","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6dae7f22f6362acc3b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef2b88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:07:49 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谷主委你好我們從業務報告中看到重返客庄地方創生移居計畫提供青壯年候選者分兩年"},{"start":43.763,"end":54.447,"text":"補助每年50萬元也就是說每岸補助的金額是100萬元目的是為了鼓勵青壯年訪鄉或移居客庄的發展輔導在低深耕並且實踐公共服務"},{"start":63.83,"end":79.405,"text":"我想請教一下過去很多地方創生的項目絕大多數遭遇到的補助金臨晚之後就後繼無力很難再繼續經營下去的狀況目前這個計畫自民國109年首度實行以來"},{"start":88.314,"end":108.056,"text":"獲得補助的項目續承三年以上的比例有多少還有對於永續經營的問題是否有獲得改善還是遇到哪一些問題做了哪一些改善的措施 請教一下"},{"start":108.827,"end":111.87,"text":"感謝麥委員,1909年,連鎖有兩屆、兩年,在省城抵達部署的校長留在地方的,超過九層,留在地方。所以當然有一層的人沒辦法留下來,可能有各種原因。"},{"start":131.51,"end":133.671,"text":"所以在我們基督徒之間 他們要選擇一項好過的 親和的另外在地方的學生 他們可以互相提出 成為一個支持內容 一個名錄他們可以互相提出 再來跟學生的互動都很平凡所以他們的部分 我知道"},{"start":153.564,"end":157.448,"text":"因為這樣正面的好處 所以在今年117年我們重新再次的計劃再提出來本來要展現130 但是後來因為經過委員會的討論評選選出473 就因為有特朗普委員講的暫時"},{"start":175.507,"end":177.029,"text":"因為報告中沒有看到你就寫沒有說九成或者是他們的成功率有哪一些比如說他成功的是有哪一些留下哪一些"},{"start":197.492,"end":214.402,"text":"所以说你有这样子的一份资料可以提供给我吗所以我可以就是要一一的去给他们拜访因为有这样的成功因为在地创生就是刚才说的很多就是中断所以说我们客家委员会这边可以做的那么好"},{"start":215.686,"end":221.331,"text":"給我一份資料好不好好沒問題好再來呢就是我們查到就是科委會在109年曾經獎助了30萬給屏東科技大學科家產業研究所鄭順發教授的團隊"},{"start":235.122,"end":242.406,"text":"進行了一份地方火花中的客庄創生從收縮城市理論探究傳統客庄再生的困局與策略的研究報告最後有正式每一個客庄有獨特的資源擬定客家傳統的地域發展藍圖"},{"start":264.781,"end":271.823,"text":"因地制宜的發展策略 你曉得有這份研究報告嗎這份報告是從2022年發表到現在已經三年了對於報告當中有提出發展策略科委會是否有拿來實際應用"},{"start":291.159,"end":293.961,"text":"感謝王議員 我們的合格議員會針對全台灣研究案都會梳理成章 故所以要喊那個部署本議員最要研究案的一個其中一個"},{"start":308.968,"end":310.249,"text":"不是我們委託他 而是他們自己想要研究對 但是你們講諸嘛 講諸他們所以說有來 我的意思說有實際應用他們的建議就是有實際應用嘛"},{"start":330.629,"end":334.631,"text":"應該是說 因為案件的規矩它的研究報告案的價值 它提出的時節提出的狀況 包括婚姻狀況 時代下的交流等等它都會提出來 我們就會參考它的意見成為我們的市政的政策但是我們沒有印象中 它可以說 佩蕾有單獨一家"},{"start":360.265,"end":361.526,"text":"所以因為我看到說報告裡面台灣科裝地方創生的策略章節中一開始就提到談地方創生不如推動地方韌性的發展"},{"start":383.547,"end":410.021,"text":"並建議將地方的弱勢團體還有在地的中初生單親家庭的成員有勞動力的資深 租民等列為優先輔導對象因為這個增增高基率會留下來的族群而且不要忽略了新住民的經濟與穩定的力量你認同嗎"},{"start":411.681,"end":416.844,"text":"我們認同,目前留學在學中,確實是在發展學科文化最主要的年代所以我們認同,留學的年代,特別是新住民的姐妹們在學中歸讀,我們認同"},{"start":432.333,"end":436.936,"text":"是因為我看報告裡面沒有寫到這一塊所以我就覺得說我們現在目前有很多人認為說東南亞移工是因為家境貧窮才會來台灣工作所以忽視了他們的消費力"},{"start":452.185,"end":458.169,"text":"但我想要提醒大家大部分的移工很勤勞他們雖然是薪水比較低但是他們利用空閒的時間就是要節省自己的日常開銷比如說他們就是在自己種菜也能減少支出"},{"start":470.896,"end":473.699,"text":"時間久了也是節省一些費用但是台中激光商圈主委曾經比例我們目前有80萬的東南亞移工還有就是16萬的東南亞新住民還有我們的僑生每人只要每一個月消費3000元"},{"start":495.259,"end":518.105,"text":"一年可以創造的是三百億的商機 而且在台灣的工業區火車站周邊很多就是形成移工商圈 還有我們的桃園中壢火車站的周邊都有就是東南亞的聚落 還有台北中山北路的菲律賓的商圈"},{"start":521.27,"end":539.916,"text":"落幕很久的台中第一广场就是现在的东斜广场多靠这些移工来去护活的所以很多新住民家来台湾我们现在也投入的我们的社区照顾长辈儿少的照顾还有积极"},{"start":540.616,"end":554.675,"text":"加入社區所以願意從事的社會還有社會的服務新住民在生活或經濟上都是相對的穩定這不只我說啦我們羅美玲委員也曾經說過"},{"start":556.044,"end":584.284,"text":"所以我們我看到報告中又沒有這個就是參考或者列入這樣子的新住民的元素所以希望說我們不要忽略就是我們的屏東科技大學的研究這個報告中指出了不要忽略新住民的經濟與穩定力量的理由所以我們想請教我們的主委報告中沒有看到說"},{"start":585.12,"end":614.213,"text":"在未來關於重訪科莊還有科莊地方創生遺跡的計畫裡面是否參考這份研究掌柱的30萬研究報告的建議讓我們新住民就是成為我們這個方案的發展的助力這樣的話是不是就會對我們年輕人返鄉"},{"start":615.171,"end":624.335,"text":"更有幫助 有沒有 未來有沒有這樣子的納入好 因為我們花了預算也花了就是要掌力所以也花了我們的就是我們的課中"},{"start":639.073,"end":665.259,"text":"的一個研究還有就是說把報告提出發展策略那實際的應用才不會白花還有就是說我們也請我們的主委審慎思考給新住民一個助力給地方創生就是我們互租互利還有融合共融共融這樣子的話我覺得是對我們的年輕人返鄉的"},{"start":668.423,"end":678.934,"text":"就是地方創生還有在地的新住民的元素加進來的話我相信這個計畫會更好好 感謝媽咪燕"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":232,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時8分）主席好，有請古主委。"],["主席：有請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：古主委你好。我們從業務報告中看到「重返客庄──客庄地方創生移居計畫」，提供青壯年獲選者分兩年補助，每年50萬元，也就是每案補助的金額是100萬元，目的是為了鼓勵青壯年返鄉或移居客庄發展，輔導在地生根，並且實踐公共服務。我想請教一下，過去很多地方創生項目，絕大多數遭遇補助金領完之後就後繼無力，很難再繼續經營下去的狀況，目前這個計畫自民國109年首度施行以來，獲得補助的項目續存3年以上的比例有多少？對於永續經營的問題是否有獲得改善？遇到哪些問題？做了哪些改善措施？請教一下。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝麥委員，109年起連續兩年有人來申請，得到補助的年輕人留在地方的有超過九成，有一成的人沒辦法留下來，可能有各種原因，所以在我們的計畫中，執行的效果算很好了。留在地方的年輕人會互相幫忙，成為一個支持系統、網絡，他們會互相幫忙，跟客委會的互動也很頻繁，這部分我覺得是正面的，所以在今年（114年）我們重新再把這個計畫提出來，本來要徵選100人，但後來經過委員會的討論，評選出47人，正如同剛才麥委員所擔心的，擔心他們留不下來，所以會選擇並看他們的計畫是不是好的，看我們能不能幫助到他們。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為報告中沒有看到這些，你只有寫，沒有說有9成，或者是他們的成功率，比如他們成功的有哪一些？留下了哪一些？所以你有這樣的一份資料可以提供給我嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒問題，我們會提供給委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：我可以一一的去拜訪他們。"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：有這樣的成功的例子。因為在地創生如剛才所說的，很多都中斷了，客家委員會可以做得那麼好，所以請給我一份資料，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：再來，我們查到客委會在109年曾經獎助30萬給屏東科技大學客家產業研究所鄭春發教授的團隊，進行了一份地方活化中的客庄創生，從收縮城市理論探究傳統客庄再生的困境與策略的研究，報告最後有正視每一個客庄有獨特的資源，擬訂客家傳統地域發展藍圖，提出因地制宜的發展策略。你曉得有這份研究報告嗎？這份報告是從2022年發表到現在，已經3年了，報告當中有提出發展策略，客委會是否有拿來實際應用？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝麥委員、我們客家委員會對全臺灣的研究案都會受理申請，所以這個是補助給他們的研究案，這是其中一個，不是我們委託他的，而是他們自己想要研究的。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是你們獎助嘛！"],["古主任委員秀妃：補助、補助……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，獎助他們。我的意思是，有實際應用他們的建議嗎？有實際應用嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該這樣說，因為案子很多，他們的研究報告案假使有提出來，在任何的場合，包括會議、場合、私底下的交流等等，他們提出來我們就會參考他們的意見以成為我們的施政政策，但是我沒有印象有針對單獨一個研究案去深入的follow。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為我看到這個報告裡面臺灣客庄地方創生策略的章節，一開始就提到談地方創生不如推動地方韌性的發展，並建議將地方的弱勢團體、在地的中輟生、單親家庭的成員、有勞動力的資深住民等，列為優先輔導對象，因為這是真正高機率會留下來的族群，而且不要忽略了新住民的經濟與穩定力量。你認同嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我認同，目前留在客庄的確實是我們在地發展客家文化最主要的人，所以我認同留下來的人，特別是很多在客庄的新住民姐妹們，我認同這個。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，因為我看報告裡面沒有寫到這一塊。我覺得目前有很多人認為東南亞移工是因為家境貧窮才會來臺灣工作，所以忽視了他們的消費力，但我想要提醒大家，大部分的移工很勤勞，他們雖然薪水比較低，但是他們利用空閒的時間，節省自己的日常開銷，比如他們自己種菜減少支出，時間久了也節省了一些費用。臺中繼光商圈主委曾經比喻：我們目前有80萬的東南亞移工，還有16萬的東南亞新住民、僑生，每人只要每一個月消費3,000元，一年可以創造300億的商機。在臺灣工業區、火車站周邊形成很多移工商圈，桃園、中壢火車站的周邊都有東南亞的聚落，還有臺北中山北路的菲律賓的商圈，連沒落很久的臺中第一廣場，也就是現在的東協廣場都靠這些移工復活。","現在很多新住民嫁來臺灣也投入社區，長輩、兒少的照顧，也積極加入社區活動，所以「願意從事社會或社會服務的新住民，在生活或是經濟上都相對穩定」。這不只我說，羅美玲委員也曾經說過，我們看到報告中又沒有這個參考或者列入新住民的元素，所以希望不要忽略，就是屏東科技大學的研究報告中，指出了不要忽略新住民的經濟與穩定力量的理由。因此我們想請教主委，報告中沒有看到未來關於「重返客庄─客庄地方創生移居計畫」裡面，是否有參考這份研究、獎助了30萬元的研究報告建議，讓新住民成為這個方案發展的助力？這樣的話是不是就對我們年輕人返鄉更有幫助，未來有沒有這樣子納入？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝麥委員所提的一個新的視角，可以納入參考，作為我們的政策指引。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為我們花了預算要獎勵，包括客庄的研究，還有提出報告、發展策略，實際應用才不會白花。也請主委審慎思考，結合新住民助力於地方創生，我們互助互利及融合、共榮，這樣子我覺得對於年輕人返鄉，就是地方創生還有在地新住民的元素加進來的話，我相信這個計畫會更好，謝謝"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝麥委員。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","接下來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164153","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164153","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6d6f2796a03957769b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef2b88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:00:03 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谷主委好我今天也是想要跟您就教這個客家幣使用的範圍因為其實在上個會期我有提出一個建議而且是具體的提案就是希望說我們客家幣的使用範圍可以擴大因為其實誠如剛剛有幾位委員都有提到這個其實很多客家莊不一定是它裡面的人口的比例有真的到三分之一以上但是裡面其實還是客家的人口很多"},{"start":38.536,"end":61.95,"text":"我舉個例子在我們高雄像是三明區鳳山區左營區其實客家的人口大概都有兩成可是因為這三個行政區都是人口很多的地方所以雖然只有兩成可是人口可能是六七萬以上啊每個行政區都是六七萬以上喔那會變成說如果你們只用比例去看這個地方是不是客家文化發展區會變成說"},{"start":64.271,"end":85.922,"text":"用比例這樣子的界定實在是太狹隘而且太侷限了那導致說在都會區的客家人口明明就這麼多可是他卻沒有成為客家文化發展區也因而沒有辦法使用你們進一步的所有的客家政策包括客家幣的使用類似如此所以其實像這樣子"},{"start":87.603,"end":104.986,"text":"的政策我認為是可以檢討的包括說其實我們高雄三民區的李昆澤委員鳳山區的學姿姐委員也都提案了他們認為是不是乾脆直接修改客家基本法算了那我認為除了修法之外其實行政手段很多啊"},{"start":105.607,"end":129.26,"text":"你們可以直接去重新界定這些客家政策適用的範圍包括哪一些店家是可以跟你們配合使用客家幣的哪一些區域他們就是客家文化如果沒有辦法這麼明定成為客家文化發展區那有其他的方式來鼓勵這一些都會區的客家人口可以跟你們的政策相呼應嘛所以在這邊是不是先請教主委"},{"start":130.359,"end":139.165,"text":"不要用人口的比例,而是看人口數來界定你們客家文化發展政策的範圍呢?謝謝王議員,其實王議員所提的,我們有提的思考可能不會對客家比喻的政策合一結團"},{"start":151.323,"end":171.696,"text":"來調整所以在其他思考的中間我們有跟國體防政府請國體防政府提出來不能所採取的有耐到的核感硬件差不多一定數量比例的肥胞分合於肥所以我們想讓國體防政府"},{"start":173.499,"end":179.195,"text":"提出的就像佟美媛所說的三明氣、風扇氣有一些理"},{"start":180.413,"end":204.478,"text":"是啊所以這個人口數是多少其實我相信你們手上也都有掌握那像我們這個已經到達六七萬每個行政區都是六七萬以上的這麼多人口數的地方那其實我覺得也不用什麼好考慮的可以直接趕快納入你們第二波試用的範圍那再來當然除了這部分之外我也想要進一步請教這個客家幣的店家領選的標準是什麼"},{"start":209.179,"end":228.473,"text":"因為其實我特別去看了一下因為我上個會期有特別提到說這個客家幣政策很好但是跟你們合作的這些店家是真的是有符合你們推廣客家文化的精神嗎那我特別去看了一下跟你們合作的店家裡面其實有很多都是連鎖店那連鎖店包括連鎖的炸雞店連鎖的火鍋店都在你們這個"},{"start":234.958,"end":249.864,"text":"客家幣合作的店家範圍裡面那請問這一些連鎖店包括這些我就不講名字但是很明顯就是我們常看到的連鎖的店家這些店家真的是有符合你們使用客家幣的精神嗎"},{"start":250.824,"end":257.367,"text":"我們三天的店隔一開始是在藥店外供學的商標它的標誌顯示國體房政府在19年內配合的學費可以侵出外供學發的商店外供學發的商店很高的價值所以我們在建基案內修理生產"},{"start":276.897,"end":279.579,"text":"但是不像剛剛委員所提的,目前一千八百家的餐廳地盤,各種用食用途的都有是的,開窗花瓣門是,所以我們的客戶結婚協助,餐廳我們也會檢討"},{"start":295.449,"end":299.151,"text":"再一次重新提出選項我們一定要差不多要的語言一定要講好可能調教會講好 點言不會講好像我們一樣 他的時間我們要用的副頭語連點言都會講好這樣做得難以我們"},{"start":311.616,"end":313.298,"text":"所以藥肺的集團我們要花營養的時間做一件事情跟粉類藥、麵、餡、粉類、營養、合盟、合作的目標我們要用來輔導我們要再細緻地做一件事情"},{"start":329.394,"end":352.328,"text":"OK好啊沒問題這個也是我我一直在強調就是到底推廣客家文化才是最重要的嗎那不要變成說你們最後為了要框現在這個客家文化發展區裡面結果這個區域裡面很多都其實都跟客家文化有一點落差的或者是他的目的並不是如此那你們反而去補助這些店家而不是去去協助這些可能"},{"start":352.848,"end":361.631,"text":"分散在各個 台灣各個角落 但是其實他們非常認真推廣客家文化的店家那我覺得去支持這些店家 是不是更有效益呢要不然 還有一個結論 我想你思考一個是講合法的一件事情 另外一個就是 委員所提的他的點陷有提示 要不然也要去討論 去研究討論要不然 我用一年的時間 跟他的政策再調整一下"},{"start":380.219,"end":394.458,"text":"好 沒問題 那我也希望接下來的這個新的政策目標是可以趕快把這些意見納進去 輪動式的檢討那最後一點時間請教一下這個客家青年諮詢委員會因為我知道說你們今年四月成立了客家的青年諮詢委員會"},{"start":395.319,"end":409.815,"text":"我覺得這非常好我也非常肯定那當然想要請教的是就是你們資訊透明跟公開的部分我希望可以做得更好因為其實啊像我們其實有其他類似的青年諮詢委員會過去都有經驗了那我竟然現在要成立一個客家版的"},{"start":415.101,"end":433.531,"text":"是不是也可以比較說可以定期有一些具體的進程跟目標然後跟這些青年諮詢委員怎麼領選以及接下來的期程然後討論了什麼都可以直接放在你們的網站上然後讓大家知道說我們課委會其實針對青年都有一個這樣的委員會在執行一些工作"},{"start":433.973,"end":438.136,"text":"好 感謝委員的建議 沒錯 因為我們在提議的有規矩很不足的素材我們可以去檢討 再慢慢的調整到一個更穩定的步驟去執行 感謝委員好 沒問題 因為剛上路啦 我當然覺得這是一個好的開始那也希望接下來可以馬上精進好 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時）謝謝主席，我們請古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：古主委好。我今天也是想要跟您就教客家幣使用的範圍，其實在上個會期我有提出一個建議，而且是具體的提案，就是希望我們客家幣的使用範圍可以擴大。誠如剛剛有幾位委員都有提到，其實很多客家庄它裡面的人口比例不一定是真的有到三分之一以上，但是還是有很多客家的人口。我舉個例子，在我們高雄像是三民區、鳳山區、左營區，其實客家的人口大概都有兩成，可是因為這三個行政區都是人口很多的地方，所以雖然只有兩成，但人口可能是6、7萬以上，每個行政區都是6、7萬以上喔！如果你們只用比例去看這個地方是不是客家文化發展區，會變成用比例，這樣子的界定實在是太狹隘，而且太侷限了。導致在都會區的客家人口明明就這麼多，可是它卻沒有成為客家文化發展區，也因而沒有辦法進一步使用你們所有的客家政策，包括客家幣的使用諸如此類，所以像這樣子的政策，我認為是可以檢討的。","其實我們高雄三民區的李昆澤委員、鳳山區的許智傑委員也都提案了，他們認為是不是乾脆直接修改客家基本法算了。我認為除了修法之外，其實行政手段很多，你們可以直接去重新界定這些客家政策適用的範圍，包括哪一些店家是可以跟你們配合使用客家幣的，哪一些區域他們就是客家文化，如果沒有辦法明定成為客家文化發展區，就要有其他的方式來鼓勵這一些都會區的客家人口，讓他們可以跟你們的政策相呼應嘛！所以先請教主委，可不可以不要用人口的比例，而是看人口數，作為界定你們客家文化發展政策的範圍呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝黃委員，確實黃委員所提的，我們有思考可能會對客家幣這個政策在下一階段來調整，所以在這個思考的中間，我們有跟各地方政府討論，請各地方政府就所在地有哪些客家人口有達到一定數量比例的，提出來回報給客委會，所以我們手上有各地方政府提出來的，就像剛剛黃委員所說的三民區、鳳山區，有一些例子是這樣。"],["黃委員捷：是啊，所以人口數是多少，其實我相信你們手上也都有掌握，像我們已經到達6、7萬，每個行政區都是6、7萬以上，我覺得這麼多人口數的地方也沒有什麼好考慮的，可以直接趕快納入你們第二波適用的範圍。","再來，當然除了這部分之外，我也想要進一步請教客家幣店家遴選的標準是什麼？其實我特別去看了一下，因為我上個會期有特別提到這個客家幣政策很好，但是跟你們合作的這一些店家，真的有符合你們推廣客家文化的精神嗎？我特別去看了一下，跟你們合作的店家裡面，其實有很多都是連鎖店，包括連鎖的炸雞店、連鎖的火鍋店，都在你們客家幣合作的店家範圍裡面。請問這一些連鎖店，我就不講名字，但是很明顯就是我們常看到的連鎖店家，這些店家真的有符合你們使用客家幣的精神嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們設定的店家，一開始是有貼「𠊎講客」的商標，這個標誌是怎麼來的？是各地方政府在這十多年來配合客委會找出會講客語的商店，然後就把它貼上去，我們是根據這樣來受理申請。但是剛才委員所提的沒有錯，目前1,800家的商店裡面各種樣式、樣態都有……"],["黃委員捷：是的，非常五花八門。"],["古主任委員秀妃：所以下一個階段的商店我們也會檢討，再一次讓他們重新提出申請，我們要達到他一定會講客語，有時可能老闆會講客語，但店員不會講客語，像這樣的樣態，我們要怎麼輔導他連店員都會講客語，這樣才能夠納入我們的店家裡面。所以下一個階段，我們會花一年的時間做這件事情，把每個商店分類，就他們還沒達到的目標我們要怎麼輔導，我們也要很細緻來做這件事情。"],["黃委員捷：OK，好啊，沒問題，這個也是我一直在強調的，推廣客家文化才是最重要的，不要最後變成你們為了要框限在客家文化發展區裡面，結果這個區域裡面其實有很多都跟客家文化是有一點落差的，或者是它的目的並不是如此，你們反而去補助這些店家，而不是去協助這些可能分散在臺灣各個角落，但是他們其實非常認真推廣客家文化的店家，我覺得去支持這些店家是不是更有效益呢？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是我們下一個階段會納入思考，一個是講客語這件事情，另外一個就是委員所提的，他的店是不是有特色，這個我們也會來研究討論，我們會用一年的時間，把這個政策再調整一下。"],["黃委員捷：好，沒問題，我也希望接下來新的政策目標是可以趕快把這些意見納進去，滾動式的檢討。最後一點時間，請教一下客家青年諮詢委員會，因為我知道你們今年4月成立了客家的青年諮詢委員會，我覺得這非常好，我也非常肯定。想要請教的是，你們資訊透明跟公開的部分，我希望可以做得更好，因為像我們其實有其他類似的青年諮詢委員會，過去都有經驗了，既然現在要成立一個客家版的，是不是也可以比照，可以定期有一些具體的進程跟目標，關於這些青年諮詢委員怎麼遴選，以及接下來的期程、討論了什麼都可以直接放在你們的網站上，讓大家知道客委會針對青年都有一個這樣的委員會在執行一些工作。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝委員的建議，沒錯，因為我們是第一屆，有很多不足的地方，我們會做檢討，慢慢調整到比較穩定的狀況，依此步驟執行，感謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，沒問題，因為也才剛上路，我覺得這是一個好的開始，也希望接下來可以馬上精進。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。","接下來我們請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164152","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6cb4559e4a5a9cb41b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef21a06a885b33e9f7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:50:45 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客家人 客家族群"},{"start":59.236,"end":75.965,"text":"這個部分我特別關心所以今天還是一樣就這兩個面向來登您就教那第一個關於兒少的這個部分我想請主委看一下小朋友其實最容易學到客家話客家文化的除了家庭之外坦白講就是學校了"},{"start":76.525,"end":96.992,"text":"你在怎麼說我們補助社團 親子活動等等其實都不如學校來得多好 那主委您看一下這個是左邊這邊是教育部我們在上本土語言的時候客家的教材那右邊的是您客委會這邊主導編撰的教材你自己有沒有評價"},{"start":98.39,"end":115.238,"text":"好意思評價嗎你比較喜歡哪一邊看起來有土的可以有意思看起來你們課委會的看起來比較活潑那你再看一下主題的話這個因為我沒有辦法像您這樣子念的那麼好比如說教育部的第一課這個不曉得要怎麼"},{"start":117.279,"end":123.621,"text":"主委這要怎麼念我將來的職業嘛對不對好那一直到比如說好了第三第二課洗衣服的地方那藍衫的秘密就是你們那個傳統客家藍衫嘛好到這邊幾個甚至是第四課"},{"start":138.965,"end":162.641,"text":"不一樣的客家話其實都感覺比較硬一點相對來講客委會的你看這邊是網路泡麵藍山運動服一樣講藍山的時候他講運動服看起來真的是比較有趣好那如果我們再看下一頁我們直接進到內容主委這個是教育部的不曉得您會念嗎或者您稍微看一下的話您覺得"},{"start":164.346,"end":169.171,"text":"學會了這些客家話對我日常客家對話的用處是比較艱難比較艱難一點對它裡面其實蠻實用的他有教你說什麼是四線槍海陸槍好那如果我們來看您課委會的部分"},{"start":181.662,"end":183.905,"text":"這個部分台灣人喜歡喝茶然後這個是等一個環保杯啊等等的看起來就是日常對話這樣應該到這裡我目前為止是給客委會極高的評價啦好那接下來是質詢的部分了"},{"start":199.842,"end":209.494,"text":"質詢的部分是 那請問一下 課委會第一 同樣是教材你們也花了心思去做第一 你在對教育部教育部在編撰這些內文的時候課委會有表達意見嗎課委會表達的意見是什麼第二"},{"start":214.48,"end":230.468,"text":"客委會你們做了這麼好的東西原則上也是配合著剛剛我都是完全拿同樣喔都是國中七年級同一個學期然後說客委會編撰完以後也是說希望國中上課可以用請問你們有讓它被使用嗎"},{"start":231.388,"end":247.687,"text":"因為我們從現場教學的反應來講的話其實現場在教課語的本土語老師學校內的本土語老師其實就是有這樣的困擾啊因為我上課還是要上教育部的啊我不可能不上教育部來上課委會的啊"},{"start":248.368,"end":256.373,"text":"好 那如果我要用課委會的我課委會是要用在什麼時候教呢我被檢驗的狀態是什麼呢所以 主委麻煩您對我的兩個問題做一個說明OK OK高友鋪喔 在那邊要交錯的時間因為有VNV對你們有參與嗎沒有對啊 你們為什麼沒有參與那些感謝VN我們就跟高友鋪反映V內有跟行業的部分喔請邀請這樣是"},{"start":277.147,"end":284.268,"text":"我認為當然啦這是教育部主導的業務那你們說我沒有受到教育部的邀請可是我認為啦其實大家部會是一體的政府就是政府人民對大家期待是這樣那我現在已經用質詢的時間正式的跟課委會提出這個要求我希望課委會可以主動也跟教育部說我們有意見我們希望能夠參與主委這樣做得到嗎主委可以嗎"},{"start":303.472,"end":307.876,"text":"所以這是第一個在教育部要有徵修的時候甚至你們現在就應該要跟他表達下一次我要進去嘛這是第一個那第二個你的東西什麼時候用聽音樂 聽音樂啦每天聽一個問題我音樂聽音樂也要問題也要那樣的而組統"},{"start":319.545,"end":322.167,"text":"要駐屯感受 要好講 要安好平台 安好創意所以主委 我這邊從剛剛一開始的時候是跟您客委會編撰的教材表示高度的肯定好用 好看 大家喜歡"},{"start":337.478,"end":343.063,"text":"到底要用在什麼時候什麼時候用好不好所以這是第一個我的問題很感謝主委都給了正面的答覆那第二個我也跟你討論剛剛張委員有提到的這個文化幣的部分確實文化幣我們其實某程度的作用客家幣對不起客家幣我們要討論客家幣的部分客家幣的作用就是希望讓年輕一代有更多的機會來使用"},{"start":362.16,"end":383.659,"text":"客家語言因為透過一個消費行為所以來使用客語所以我也贊成你說要用外公行這樣子的客家店家客語店家來使用店家是這種那使用客家幣的族群是18到45這都OK那就回到我剛剛說的散居的部分了主委那"},{"start":384.946,"end":389.369,"text":"我們現在外公行的這個政策這種店家只有在客庄可以有嗎那散居的地方可不可以也有這樣呢我就是正因為我這不是客庄所以我講客語更彌足珍貴啊不是應該讓我被大大的標章外公行啊不是這樣嗎這樣 莫名其妙有過度延遲新北台北高雄等等土匪都在翻譯說我們土匪在買入外公行的廉價"},{"start":414.343,"end":416.344,"text":"我們在結婚上要幫太監行業學長在結婚當然 委員所提的我們在結婚男女時刻要去都市坊我們有一個暫時 暫時就是說那幾十都市的店都男女來 我說那些店男女來可能超過一半的人會去都市坊 因為很窮"},{"start":440.913,"end":453.024,"text":"沒關係那個標準要是怎麼拿捏您可以來拿捏可是我覺得因為從客庄與非客庄是按照人口聚集的程度你剛剛說30%嘛所以新北市整個新北市1032個里當中只有三峽一個里"},{"start":460.05,"end":467.613,"text":"變成是客庄所以所有客委會的相關資源變成新北市幾乎有很大一部分都沒有辦法使用我覺得這非常的可惜尤其是外公號在經過這幾年的這樣子的推廣其實我覺得有很多客家鄉親不管是從事生意往來的或者是其他領域的他穿那件T恤貼那個貼紙他們其實是蠻驕傲的"},{"start":485.859,"end":513.471,"text":"那你如何讓這個驕傲感可以擴散我認為這是一個已經開始可以思考的時刻了所以包括像客家幣怎麼讓這些人也覺得因為我平常有認真的做奶工號這個政策所以我也在這一波的刺激消費裡面某程度嘛它就是雙向的狀況嘛一方面是讓年輕人講客家話去買東西另外一方面是你推廣客語的店家我也讓你有生意做所以他們也得到獎勵"},{"start":514.631,"end":527.476,"text":"那我認為這個部分真的應該要考慮我們散居的地區啊所以主委妳這個部分可不可以表達一下妳的態度好 我們還有一個結論我們其實已經有跟我們的女僕在那裡討論說要開放嗎啦要的部分標準妳可以定我覺得妳可以有任何的考慮機制但我認為這個方向要做好不好 主委好 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目前新北有符合要在生產的資格在三峽區的用料理所以 黑格斯 黑格斯這樣推動做到的法案我們會針對都市"},{"start":202.104,"end":207.149,"text":"無窮的地方 做我們的實踐一體的現在 因為白宮政府站是一個企業 一個高天的企業但是因為一國分散 價值沒有差不多30%我們有可能用沙灘的方式來跟白宮政府站合作"},{"start":223.12,"end":252.397,"text":"核架沙灘以核架式做的來從事核白宮政府負責的事情我們因為要提出核架的推動來講那一個進步的 那一個跨出提步的要用的方法好 非常感謝主委剛剛的回覆所以剛剛主委的回覆我覺得非常重要所以博工造戶站正式進駐新北就像你講的 它現在已經進駐到新北市三峽的一個里"},{"start":252.837,"end":266.956,"text":"的一個部分那我相信當然人數的部分可能人數在新北最整體我們所有客家人數來講還是不多啦那剛剛主委也有一些新的一些方式像是你剛剛講的如果可以用申請字或者是說他可以集結到"},{"start":267.386,"end":290.861,"text":"一定的人數一定的社團的時候我認為博工招呼站如果可以進駐到新北讓更多新北的人來感受到這個親子或者是我們所有這個長輩這個跟我們所有下一代的小朋友這樣子的一個方式我覺得是非常的好那就拜託主委繼續我們繼續加強因為其實每年的這個博工招呼站的清費都是"},{"start":291.361,"end":319.18,"text":"有在提升的跟112年比较起来其实有增加到两倍以上所以我觉得这个可以继续再努力那第三个我就要请教就是有关于客家币的一个部分那当时我觉得有一个很有趣的事情要请教谷主委当时您跟我讲客家币的使用人数你还记得是多少人吗你当时跟我讲的是40万人一开始跟我讲的是40万人可是最后我们看到这个客家币的发放"},{"start":319.773,"end":339.025,"text":"大概是20出頭萬人那我想請教一下中間的落差是什麼因為很多民眾覺得說當時這個客家幣是要推動我們所有這個客家莊的一個經濟發展跟我們很多的一些店家的一些互動那怎麼人數從40萬人降少降低到20幾萬人"},{"start":341.88,"end":356.027,"text":"所以當時是覺得說可以比較數量可以多一點後來因為預算的問題所以往下降了那還有我就是反映一些民意那當然客家幣的"},{"start":356.807,"end":370.241,"text":"政策我覺得是一個很好的政策不過我認為很多民眾在跟我們反映的時候也有特別強調說這個為什麼當時在發放的時候有一個年紀的限制好像是18歲到45歲是不是因為年紀的問題導致我後來發行的數量變49歲"},{"start":374.403,"end":389.724,"text":"是不是因為年紀的問題而導致後來能拿到的人數量變少呢還有我還要繼續請教還有用途的部分那當然我們需要是推行就是地方美食文化跟傳統藝術等等一些方式那我們也看到當然"},{"start":391.175,"end":408.627,"text":"網路上也有很多人在提說有一些當然店家很聰明他會利用這個客家幣的部分來做些促銷所以我們就看到很多店家去買金飾等等的或者是去買一些文具等等不是說不行可是我們很怕客家幣當時原有的大家的這種要"},{"start":409.427,"end":425.512,"text":"讓客家文化發展更好的這個想法變成客家幣就等於消費幣消費券的那樣的概念那主委你在聽到這些的問題而且現在的使用率大概是百分之二十幾還沒有超過百分之三十針對很多民眾提出來這些問題你可不可以一次回覆一下"},{"start":426.492,"end":429.274,"text":"感謝總委員在我們想要設備建設的學校比我們當時沒有想要的政策出來學校比委員會19年來有推動一個叫做外公學的創業點"},{"start":443.976,"end":448.498,"text":"在學校創業期間 代表學生要點價去使用學法當然學校的學法 學生的學校的學法 他沒有辦法用所以要兩篇特立的 要兩篇做的連接方案所以就要學校必須想法出來"},{"start":462.404,"end":465.846,"text":"認可的合法 拿到的黑咖啡都會供合法的商店來使用來收費因為只有私人的 也要服從私人的收費的營業也要追銷 也要政策推出的目標今天週末的18到49歲黑咖啡發行的對象有三宗已經在通過行業認證"},{"start":490.803,"end":497.407,"text":"她的行為家庭,在前面的十百多四十九歲,昨晚的十百多四十九歲,不是因為我的思量感受,所以我懇請她的年齡,不是,是因為四十九歲以下的外公合法的年齡比例十分大,"},{"start":512.099,"end":517.721,"text":"二十歲以下的差不多百分之十幾十幾再來四十多四十九百分之四十一都沒有超過一半五十歲以上的外國合法的比例是百分之五十以上所以我們會想在假設這樣的方式讓商人跟自己運用的行業也要適從地域用合法來使用所以我們要有這樣的想法出來"},{"start":539.21,"end":567.141,"text":"十八到四十九 當然 國土 民主 都有提到要開放也要買那個我們的社會結構 要思考的感謝總委員提出的問題 本來順利好 抱歉主席 最後一個問題就是其實我們還是常常請教主委這個問題就是根據國家語言整體的發展方案就是客語現在變成 大家知道就是像剛剛主委有講的年輕人 尤其49歲以下講客語的人非常的少"},{"start":568.764,"end":595.237,"text":"這個三代兼使用客語的使用率也流失超過七成所以我們一直立法院主要的目的就是要協助行政單位立法我們有一個叫做客家語言發展法的部分上次有請教您說已經送到行政院來做核准的一個步驟了可是最近我們有看到新聞是不是說請你回應說現在的目前的進度在哪裡我們也看到新聞裡面有寫說"},{"start":596.533,"end":613.388,"text":"文化部好像有相對有一些的意見那是不是可以這邊請你回應一下說那這樣子遇到已經等了那麼久遇到卡關的這樣的狀況可不可以稍微請你解釋一下文化部那邊提出來的意義是什麼你們有收到相關的意見你們的回覆是什麼主要是這樣文化學家基本法底盤有一個設立國家研究研究中心學家研究中心"},{"start":624.79,"end":629.494,"text":"但是文化部那篇題的已經安排成為國家研研研究中心那核發的那些選項在哪裏呢那兩篇就會有重複的問題所以我們也要先點下來 沒想另外一個法律 另外一個就是核感研研發展法也要國普費有協商的 已經協商好的"},{"start":646.509,"end":647.47,"text":"謝謝主委 這邊特別重述一下"},{"start":668.388,"end":682.648,"text":"主委的意思是說現在跟文化部的溝通是有辦法去解決這樣的問題兩件事請法省再講一下這是兩件事兩件事像那個國家語言研究發展中心文化鋪貼"},{"start":684.332,"end":707.768,"text":"語言發展研究中心跟客家語言發展法是兩件事但是因為要有語言研究中心跟客家語言研究中心要有可能有重複的問題要涉及客家基本法要修那要想客家語言發展法跟基本法要同時做一邊的思考要有一點點連帶的關係"},{"start":711.257,"end":730.632,"text":"好 所以可是我剛剛我還是有聽到您說下個會期有機會希望下個會期把這個科家原發展法送到立法院還是送到行政院行政院當然要通過張有法律書下一個就是要變成在演一個會期送到行政院然後看有沒有機會送到立法院好 謝謝好 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":142,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時38分）謝謝主席。各位官員、各位委員，大家早。有請古主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：古主委早。首先，非常感謝客家委員會古主委對地方文化活動的支持，客委會在今（114）年新北市客家義民祭文化節的經費原本核定的是100萬，因為當時新北市政府有提出它參與的內容有很多包含青年參與的部分，我非常感謝古主委，因為有看到青年，整個活動非常的充實，所以同意加碼100萬，總補助經費到200萬元，我相信這份補助就代表中央跟地方大家一起核心協力，對所有客家的傳統信仰跟青年世代共融的重視，也讓地方政府在推動客家文化傳承上有更大的施力空間，所以再次跟古主委、客委會表達感謝，也感謝副主委親自出席。","接著，還是要稍微再詢問，要繼續監督我們的客委會。第二個，還是要請教，今天古主委特別在專案報告裡面有提到有關於伯公照護站的部分，伯公照護站我相信是一個非常重要的政策，因為伯公照護站有非常多的好處，像親子共融互動、對文化語言的傳承等等幫助，我相信之前一直有跟古主委拜託，雖然伯公照護站是在客家的重點發展區，可是因為現在……當然我知道很多的客家鄉親有一些都市化聚集的情況，造成有一些分散、造成現在如果要符合重點發展區，就是客家人數要占這個區三分之一以上，是有相對應的困難，之前我在數次的質詢也有請教古主委這個比例是否可以下降？尤其新北市跟臺北市現在都還沒有伯公照護站，上次口頭質詢你們也有回復，可是回復的內容，本席還是想請古主委稍微聊一下，你們現在對於雙北的伯公照護站預期的計畫是如何？謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：首先，感謝張委員對客家委員會的肯定，十分感謝。伯公照護站，確實張委員質詢過後我們內部有幾次的討論，就是針對重點發展區以外的都市特別新北、臺中、高雄，像這樣的都會地區有很多客家人要怎麼處理。我們目前初步有針對這些非客家重點發展區，訂了一個30%以上可以使用客語的比例就可以來納入，目前新北市有符合這個申請資格的是三峽區五寮里，所以如果這樣推動是可以的話，我們會針對都市不一樣的地方來做這樣的設定，這是第一個。第二個，因為伯公照護站還是一個固定地區，但是因為它非常分散，如果沒有達到30%，我們有可能用社團的方式來跟伯公照護站合作，客家社團如果可以充實伯公照護站的事情，我們認為這在都市推動客家的來說，是一個進步、是跨出第一步，這兩個方法。"],["張委員智倫：非常感謝主委剛剛的回復，剛剛主委的回復我覺得非常重要，所以伯公照護站正式進駐新北，就像你講的，它現在已經進駐到新北市三峽的一個里，那我相信，當然人數的部分，可能以新北整體客家人數來講還是不多，剛剛主委也有一些新的方式，像你剛剛講的，如果可以用申請制，或者是它可以集結到一定的人數、一定的社團的時候，我認為伯公照護站如果可以進駐到新北，讓更多新北的人來感受到親子或者是所有長輩、下一代小朋友這樣子的方式，我覺得是非常的好，就拜託主委繼續加強，因為每年伯公照護站的經費都是有在提升的，其實跟112年比較起來有增加到2倍以上，所以我覺得這個可以繼續再努力。","第三個，我就要請教有關於客家幣的部分，當時我覺得有一個很有趣的事情要請教古主委，當時您跟我講客家幣的使用人數，你還記得是多少人嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：很抱歉，我忘記了。"],["張委員智倫：你當時跟我講的是40萬人，一開始跟我講的是40萬人，可是最後我們看到客家幣的發放大概是20出頭萬人，我想請教中間的落差是什麼？因為很多民眾覺得當時客家幣是要推動我們所有客家庄的經濟發展跟很多店家的一些互動，怎麼人數從40萬人降低到二十幾萬人？"],["古主任委員秀妃：因為預算的關係，我們沒有這麼多錢。"],["張委員智倫：所以當時是覺得數量可以多一點，後來因為預算的問題，所以往下降了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["張委員智倫：還有，我反映一些民意，當然客家幣的政策我覺得是一個很好的政策，不過很多民眾在跟我們反映的時候，也有特別強調說為什麼當時在發放的時候，有一個年紀的限制，好像是18歲到49歲，是不是因為年紀的問題，而導致後來能拿到的人數量變少呢？還有，我還要繼續請教用途的部分，當然我們希望推行地方美食、文化跟傳統藝術等等方式，當然網路上也有很多人在提有一些……當然店家很聰明，他會利用客家幣的部分來做一些促銷，所以我們就看到很多店家去買金飾等等的，或者是去買一些文具等等，不是說不行，可是我們很怕客家幣當時原有的，大家要讓客家文化發展更好的想法，變成客家幣就等於消費券的概念。主委，你聽到這些問題，而且現在的使用率大概是百分之二十幾，還沒有超過30%，針對很多民眾提出來的這些問題，你可不可以一次回復？"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，感謝張委員。第一個，我想要稍微解釋一下客家幣，我們當時為什麼會想出這個政策，就是客家委員會十多年來有推動一個叫「𠊎講客」、貼「𠊎講客」的商店，在客家重點區貼「𠊎講客」，就表示這個店家可以使用客語，很多人學了客語、小孩子學了客語，他無處可用，所以這兩邊是獨立的，我們要怎麼把這兩邊獨立的可以連結起來，所以就有客家幣的想法出來。","人學了客語，拿到客家幣，到會講客語的商店來使用消費的時候，他們就可以有自然地互動、自然講客語來消費，這是最先政策推出的目標。第二個，為什麼會是18到49歲？客家幣發行的對象有三種：一個是通過客語認證的；一個是客語家庭的；第三才是18到49歲。為什麼是18到49歲？不是因為我們數量減少，所以限定這個年齡，不是，是因為49歲以下會講客語的人比例非常低，20歲以下會講的差不多百分之十幾；再來，40歲到49歲會講的有41%，都沒有超過一半；50歲以上的人會講客語的比例是50%以上，所以我們會想如果是這樣的話，年輕人和小孩要怎麼走進這個市場裡面，來使用客語？所以我們才會有這樣的想法出來，18歲到49歲國民可領，當然很多民眾都有提到是不是可以開放？這也是我們下一階段要思考的，感謝張委員提出這些問題讓我說明。"],["張委員智倫：好，不好意思，主席，我最後一個問題。我們常常請教主委這個問題，根據國家語言整體的發展方案，客語現在變成像剛剛主委有提到的，年輕人尤其49歲以下，講客語的人非常的少，三代間使用客語的使用率也流失超過七成，所以立法院主要的目的就是要協助我們行政單位立法，我們有一個叫做客家語言發展法的部分，上次有請教，您說已經送到行政院做核准的步驟了，可是最近我們有看到新聞，是不是請你回應目前的進度在哪裡？我們也看到新聞裡面有寫說文化部好像有一些意見，是不是可以請你回應一下，已經等了那麼久，遇到卡關的狀況，可不可以請你稍微解釋一下，文化部那邊提出的異議是什麼？你們有收到相關的意見，你們的回覆是什麼？謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：主要是文化部……我們客家基本法裡面有規定要設立客家語言研究發展中心，但是文化部提了一個案子，叫做國家語言研究發展中心，客語是不是算這裡面呢？這兩邊就會有重複的問題，所以我們現在就先停下來、不送；另外一個法就是客家語言發展法，現在各部會有協商了，已經協商好了，現在等著我們要來提出到立法院，我預計是下一個會期，我們希望送行政院審查，審過了以後送來立法院。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委，我特別重述一下，主委的意思是說現在跟文化部的溝通，是有辦法去解決這樣的問題。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是兩件事情，不好意思，我再說一下，這是兩件事。國家語言研究發展中心是文化部提的，國家語言研究發展中心跟客家語言發展法是兩件事，但是因為語言研究中心跟客家語言研究中心，這可能有重複的問題，那就涉及客家基本法是不是要修？如果要修，我們客家語言發展法跟基本法就要同時來一併的思考，這有一點點連帶關係。"],["張委員智倫：可是我剛剛還是有聽到您說下個會期有機會……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們希望、我們希望。"],["張委員智倫：希望下個會期把客家語言發展法……"],["古主任委員秀妃：客家語言發展法送進來。"],["張委員智倫：送到立法院，還是送到行政院？"],["古主任委員秀妃：送行政院，行政院要通過才有辦法送立法院。"],["張委員智倫：就是變成再延一個會期送到行政院，然後看有沒有機會送到立法院嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，請委員多多支持。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","接下來我們請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164150","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164150","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6c5d929ea9a1ec3d9b8aa47c7299e750c92e8362d61d61ef2d286ba3e6171f3d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:28:13 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我覺得探討幾天了"},{"start":227.796,"end":244.1,"text":"以我自己來講,因為自己長大,家大戶小,他有一個故事,他的妻子在那裡,學生在那裡學,但是再來,故事跟故事,又沒有"},{"start":245.162,"end":248.664,"text":"他覺得又來又沒吃的地方小朋友你會覺得他會說的很快很好事但是在各地各地又回來了又沒有了像這個人也很要緊的這個規定"},{"start":267.69,"end":279.334,"text":"那些學校有延伸,目前各種國中有鼓勵學校,目前有的,所以在新城市本來教小學的,一直在各種國中教的,目前有面對到困難,就是新城市分批的地方沒多嚴肅,市值缺乏,也是一個問題。"},{"start":296.359,"end":302.802,"text":"主委你說的就是私資的問題嘛所以我就是說 從你的問題出來講就是覺得說我們的家具錢 你如果想要跟家具錢而已就這樣啊 更何況肚子餓所以說在這個過程當中 主委你要去邀約一下因為我覺得對老總統來說 他對"},{"start":324.212,"end":327.975,"text":"教授會做軍,他也非常關心你看你剛才報告的時候,你看你提到說我們老總統希望我們的工廠裡面,藝人會發展會發展,是國家的所以這說實在的,主委你要趕快去"},{"start":350.782,"end":358.69,"text":"做 去改善 看要怎麼做但是你未來有要怎麼做讓它不要一直降價下去是不是你這個價位可以讓本縣在一星期來讓本縣看你未來要怎麼做好不好好 來 主委你今天請"},{"start":376.121,"end":384.986,"text":"我也感謝主委在這麼忙碌的時間去到嘉義市看到我們客位做羽馬在當中 主委在嘉義市看到做羽馬的時候主委你有感動嗎很感動 感動嗎鋼藝師我們貴社會選英國體育派系"},{"start":402.882,"end":417.637,"text":"因為我認為在嘉義市的地方雖然我們秀的作品不代表你不去關心它我也知道主委很關心嘉義市的客戶所有的客戶"},{"start":422.512,"end":434.157,"text":"所以在這個過程當中 我也聽到你在這裡說你的未來要做的當局的事件裡面有誤會在誤會中 我這本簿子從頭看到後面今天這個坐在這裡 看你在那裡報告的時候完全都沒說到"},{"start":450.407,"end":461.277,"text":"嘉義市 主委嘉義市是一個幸福的地方也希望主委可以讓這個市區帶動嘉義市的發展因為"},{"start":466.221,"end":469.463,"text":"課宜的問題一定要有互動像這個親子聚就是互動你會去認載你到家裡去的時候看孩子跟姨媽、跟親戚在那裡玩的時候說實在的,我不是開心而已"},{"start":487.313,"end":488.175,"text":"我非常感動,可以在嘉義市有這麼大的市區來嘉義市尤其是中央的活動所以主委,我們在這裡也要拜託"},{"start":503.524,"end":508.947,"text":"可以讓嘉義市這個要做的地方把它納入嘉義市的研議制因為我認為這對嘉義市來說非常重要因為嘉義市的發展也需要各方面的投資因為我們"},{"start":526.992,"end":530.695,"text":"中醫廟發展的時候 我也感謝我們副主委那天有去有去的當中 我覺得我們的不足就是說這麼多人出來的活動聽他們的說 你們只有補助一點"},{"start":545.742,"end":547.423,"text":"我們的神主也已經蓋了是要讓人這樣供養再來嚴格在這個過程當中我覺得起的神看到他們的活動歡歡喜喜所以主耶"},{"start":562.114,"end":567.838,"text":"在這裡的問題裡面多給他們協助尤其他們中醫廟跟在沒有我們靠的活動中心但是中醫廟是因為大家都會去那裡開工在那些活動的地方我希望主委對這個活動對這個地方要多給他關心一下主委沒問題 這樣我會照顧到"},{"start":592.395,"end":596.062,"text":"各位麻煩後話 醫生好 感謝王醫院"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":122,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時28分）主席，請主委。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委，早安。主委，我說的語言跟你不一樣，不過我們互相尊重，如果聽不懂的時候，你再問我一次，沒關係。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好。"],["王委員美惠：因為我們是要解決問題，不是要製造出問題，希望客委會的未來可以更好。主委，在這裡剛才我有聽到你的工作報告、業務報告提到語言的問題，據本席所了解，雖然你上任一年多，但從新政府就職你就上任到現在，我覺得你很認真，不過認真的過程當中有需要進步的地方，因為語言在學習的時候……你會覺得我們的語言學習在這幾年來，沒有更進步卻更退步。你看投影片7歲到12歲、22歲以下的人在這幾年沒有什麼成長，剛才你的報告也希望未來我們的語言學習可以再更進步、更好。據本席所了解，像我本身是臺灣人，我就說臺語，而平常在家裡跟阿公、阿嬤說母語是很正常的，不過當他不是客家子弟卻想要學客語，要如何可以讓他們學習？又我們自己的母語要怎麼保存下去？這是最重要的。我今天跟你述說的心情，就像我現在在講臺語要如何保存下去的重要性，因為它漸漸沒有人說，我們真的要注重這個危機。主委，請你回答一下。"],["古主任委員秀妃：感謝王委員，客語跟臺語都同樣面對流失的問題，王委員提到年輕人學習的比例降低，這個部分可能要我們再進一步用各種方法來幫助學生學習，特別是透過教育單位、學校和薪傳師主動開課，這些我們都要化被動為主動，才有可能提高，我們會檢討做的方式。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得在這裡已經探討好幾年了，以嘉義市來說，因為嘉義市剛好有一所嘉大附小，在那裡可以學習母語，不過再來的國中跟高中就沒有銜接了。你會覺得小朋友學得很快、很好，但是到國中、高中就終止了，像這個過程我們也要很在意。"],["古主任委員秀妃：這在學校有延伸，目前國中、高中有鼓勵修課，目前是有的，所以很多薪傳師本來是在教小學的，都轉去國中跟高中教，目前有面對到這樣的困難，就是薪傳師分配人數不足，欠缺師資，這也是一個大問題。"],["王委員美惠：對，主委說的就是師資的問題，我就是把你說的問題拿出來講，你想光是嘉義市就這樣，更何況別的縣市，所以在這個過程當中，主委要注意。賴總統對少數的族群也非常關心，你看你剛剛在報告的時候，提到賴總統希望國語言發展，而國家語言發展法是國家級的。說實在的，主委要趕快去改善，看要怎麼做，也希望你思考未來要怎麼做，不要讓它一直降低下去。這個計畫是不是可以在一個禮拜內給本席？讓本席看你未來要怎麼做，好嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：沒問題，我會提供資料。"],["王委員美惠：我也感謝主委在今年初這麼忙的時間到嘉義市看客委會舉辦的雨馬，在嘉義市看到雨馬表演的時候，主委有感動嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：很感動，因為嘉義市我們很少去，這應該是第一次。"],["王委員美惠：雖然在嘉義市客家是少數族群，但不代表你就沒有去關心他們。我知道主委很關心嘉義市所有客委會的業務，所以在這個過程當中，我也有聽到你在這裡說你未來要做5場燈怪客語戲劇，但我把這本資料從頭看到尾，而且我今天早上坐在這裡看你報告的時候，完全都沒有說到嘉義市。嘉義市是一個幸福的地方，希望主委可以透過這個戲劇帶動嘉義市的發展，因為要解決客語的問題，一定要有互動，像這樣的親子劇就會有互動。你記得你年初到嘉義市，看小孩跟雨馬還有親友在那裡玩的時候，說實在，我不只是高興而已，我更加感動，嘉義市可以有這麼大型的戲劇表演，尤其是中央舉辦的活動。本席在這裡也要拜託主委可以研議把嘉義市納入要舉辦的地方，我覺得這對嘉義市來說非常重要，因為嘉義市的發展也需要各方面的幫忙，尤其我們忠義廟在發展的時候，我也感謝副主委那天有去，過程當中我覺得不足的是，這麼多人會參加的活動，聽他們說你們只補助一點，我們的神豬也已經改了，是要讓人供奉，還有閹雞。在這個過程當中，我去的時候看到他們在活動時很高興。所以主委，在這些問題裡面，多給他們協助，尤其嘉義市忠義廟沒有客委會的活動中心，不過忠義廟是他們都會去那邊聊天、活動的地方，希望主委對這個活動、對這個地方要多一些關心。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，沒問題，我們會照顧到。"],["王委員美惠：剛剛我說的計畫，再麻煩給我，以上。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，謝謝王委員。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠召委。","接下來我們請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-4","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","黃捷","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張宏陸","許宇甄","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","徐富癸","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":31,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請客家委員會主任委員率同所屬及財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並\n備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00002"}}},{"id":"164149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164149","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6236cbdbd8a02f2fdb030ba4996051aea92e8362d61d61ef239c7ac6a666915c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:10:58 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我們請蔡明彥蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 徐維華局長好 我們在今天您提供的這個工作報告裡面的第13頁那您這邊有提到有關於中共利用新興技術搗亂我國的這個輿論場域的部分那您也提出了這個相關的數量"},{"start":27.593,"end":43.032,"text":"像是去年的選舉之前政府也有成立一個全國重大假訊息的案件處理中心後面有一些是在選舉案件後續沒有結果或是選後才定調的也會造成許多的候選人不小的傷害"},{"start":43.573,"end":69.202,"text":"那並且呢假消息跟是否是中共操控輿論戰或者是境外勢力的介入不是同一件事情那請問既然你們已經所謂徵搜到這麼多的話我們一般民眾要如何界定這一些訊息到底是來自於境外或是中共或是說是從哪裡而來還是台灣自己可能民眾誤傳的消息"},{"start":69.622,"end":73.865,"text":"因為這其中有非常大的差異如果只是單純的寫說我們呢這個中共藉由什麼網路水軍然後媒體多層次途徑啊對台散播這個等等攻擊政府啊然後等等以美相關資訊加劇我內部對立那有一些是我們台灣的民眾認為政府做得不好或者是認為對於美國有一些批判"},{"start":95.222,"end":117.387,"text":"那他不能把他算在所謂的境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作嘛這兩者之間還是有分別的那你們有沒有任何的途徑或是管道能夠來公開的告訴大家說哪一些才是所謂你們認為的境外勢力或是中共的擾亂否則所謂加劇我內部對立的那變成是我們自己啊"},{"start":118.007,"end":142.826,"text":"好 謝謝委員提到這個問題啦那事實上對於境外勢力的這些正義訊息的散佈那我們有一個查找的系統那我們講的所謂的有問題的這些異常帳號大部分都是在中共的這種運作網路當中那會去傳散中共所傳佈的資訊而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有它比較日常的一些資訊對啊 那有沒有具體的嘛對 所以有 有沒有具體的案例啊"},{"start":145.228,"end":174.628,"text":"有 這個案例非常的多我知道 我說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例這是為什麼我們在今年的年初有特別公佈一份公開版的報告國安局第一次公佈公開版的報告來說明中共的相關證訊殘破不足我說你現在拿一個案例告訴我說你們國安局調查哪一個是曾經是中共的這個擾亂台灣的相關的案例有關於所謂的你剛剛說的網路水軍跟媒體的層次途徑的這個部分的具體案例"},{"start":175.608,"end":195.302,"text":"非常多啊 不我請你提出一個嘛你跟我講非常多我現在請你提出一個案例那今天這麼多的媒體也在現場然後我們也都是直播出去的那你提供一個案例有很難嗎來我接下來先問你不要跟我講非常多因為呢像現在很多AI嘛或者是說很多網路使用嘛比方說齁我相信局長應該有聽過本應該匆匆忙忙游刃有餘現在是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬"},{"start":202.066,"end":212.674,"text":"真言說瞎話 你在哽咽什麼啦 你在哭什麼哭 沒出息我們就有立法委員認為說 這樣子的一個歌曲不要聽 因為這是中共設計用來統戰的我請問一下局長這首歌 沒出息那 您認為它是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎你們國安局的查核是如何的"},{"start":226.071,"end":248.58,"text":"大概還是要看到他的一個內容還有他傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎還有他的傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎我大概看過那你沒有看過他的傳散狀況嗎從哪些平台是誰在傳播然後呢有哪些人看過了然後歌曲內容是什麼沒看過嗎國安局沒有做過調查嗎都有立法委員王逸川委員說不可以聽因為這是中共用來設計統戰的了已經有立委公開說這是統戰那國安局的調查是如何呢"},{"start":254.602,"end":279.749,"text":"我跟委員說明一下喔 這有兩個層面喔第一個 我們會做比較總體性的相關的一個傳散它相關的一個數字的變化 這是一個部分第二個 個案國安局會介入來針對每一個個案來進行查查的話一定是要拉高到國安的層級一般政治人物之間彼此的可能這些影音的攻防我們不會去涉入這跟影音攻防有什麼關係啊我們一般會涉入的話所以如果今天中共"},{"start":280.469,"end":296.748,"text":"中共他有做一個 假設像王逸川委員所說的中共做了一個歌曲或者是一個訊息 然後來統戰台灣然後呢 那國安局認為這個也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係國安局也不需要介入調查"},{"start":297.588,"end":315.198,"text":"那請問一下為什麼你們在第13頁裡面你們就講說中共藉由一場粉專以知名電影或動畫素材用AI技術做二次創作產生迷因式的影音對於台美關稅談判啊然後罷免投票人員政策等等的資訊呢然後呢去擴大輿論的渲染"},{"start":315.698,"end":343.199,"text":"那請問一下這個就是類似的情況啊那你們要說明清楚所謂的徵訊的部分假如涉及到國安層級的話它大概有幾個部分一個部分是涉及到對元首的污衊第二部分涉及到我們對外重要關係的發展第三個部分在國家重大地採取大免投票的部分或對元首的採取或國家重要的選舉期間這些徵訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災我們國安局會介入好所以呢我們可以看到二創的部分來"},{"start":344.795,"end":365.502,"text":"我們看一下這個是本來國民黨所做的一個CF然後後面呢就有其他的網友他們也做了相關的二創那請問一下你們在談到運用AI技術時做罷免投票的議題申詢的時候呢那算不算是你所說的中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域就你們的調查"},{"start":368.516,"end":397.697,"text":"委員提到的是政黨的選舉 不是就對啊選舉罷免期間嘛公投期間嘛那有一個國民黨所做的正版的然後後面很多的網友他也做了二創的那請問像這樣子的一個做法民眾的二創會被國安局拿去檢查或是偵辦是否是AI或是中共利用新興技術的擾亂然後對於這樣子的一個內容你們是否查核呢"},{"start":398.337,"end":423.707,"text":"你們認為是嗎看狀況要看相關的狀況你們每個都看狀況那人家都有立法委員公開檢舉說沒出席這首歌是中共統戰了那你們看起來你們也不在意啊一般的檢舉你只要是走相關的一個刑事案件的一個提告的話那就走司法系統我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大的影響才會有國安局來介入統戰不是國安的重大影響要看他的一個案情我剛經國安委員說明過了"},{"start":424.667,"end":441.787,"text":"所以嘛我剛問說王逸川委員說沒出息這首歌是中共設計來統戰的如果真的是這樣的話那很危險現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲呢那所有的人都在傳唱它不就是一種很大力的這個統戰嗎如果真的像王逸川委員所說的這麼嚴重國安局部應該有反應嗎"},{"start":443.271,"end":469.254,"text":"第一個是行為者行為者是假如是中共傳散的這是一個部分那是不是嗎你們是研究沒有啊第二個是他傳散的內容我剛剛跟委員所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題假如證訊的內容是涉及到國安層次的援手所以你認為作災或是相關的重大疫情會影響的所以你認為沒出席這首歌沒有問題嗎太多了太多了所以沒有關係我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題"},{"start":470.635,"end":488.809,"text":"不是啊 那所以我的意思是說這首歌那你就覺得說國安局不需要去做任何的調查不需要去做任何的研究因為沒有涉入到總統跟選舉所以呢 那跟統不統戰也沒有關係是這個意思吧好他沒有檢舉提告嘛就是每一個人他都可以公開講說哎呀 這個是統戰哎呀 這個是 這個是什麼樣的這個情況每個人都可以講啊那大家都在講的時候 那請問一下那"},{"start":498.456,"end":516.522,"text":"我就問嘛每一個人都在講說這是統戰那國安局對於統戰那哪些是哪些不是那如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話那請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢最後加深內部對立的人是誰就是我們國人跟國人之間啊那主席再借我一分鐘我要問一下警政署因為這個是"},{"start":517.862,"end":519.083,"text":"大家相當關注的問題齁我簡單問就好了那高雄呢日前發生一個警民的糾紛就是有一個民眾他在鳥松區跟這個啊這個拍攝齁這個總統的車隊經過那結果呢我們有看到影片了"},{"start":533.839,"end":550.071,"text":"現場員警制止說是違法然後呢影片曝光引起輿論爭議他說呢這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界線引發了一個爭論那這個員警就說呢執行公務按照法條他列出了刑法135 136 138 140跟141說你在妨礙社會秩序拍攝者說呢他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊的時候呢"},{"start":557.917,"end":564.386,"text":"員警說因為他們在執行特種任務拍特種情務就是違法那拍攝者說所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎員警說對然後呢後面拍攝者說哪一條法規不能拍那自此呢對話就被中斷了"},{"start":573.519,"end":590.105,"text":"那我想請問一下現在在台灣拍攝元首的車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重就是有違反刑法123455條然後是因為維安勤務的關係未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候是不能拍攝的是嗎"},{"start":591.665,"end":600.072,"text":"請摘要回答請摘要回答就好那我想這個也不是不見得是是這樣的狀況那總統維安這個是道路警衛是負責這個沿途的這個安全那對於原警針對這個個案我們也會去做一個瞭解那原則上就是總統的維安是一定要保障到安全當然嘛我是問的是拍攝嘛所以請您喔因為時間有限的關係請您們確定好"},{"start":619.187,"end":640.024,"text":"就是民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝到底是不是國安問題能不能夠拍攝這件事情必須要做一個說明跟釐清局長想回答我來跟委員說明一下因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點假如我們的安危對象他的行徑的動線有可能出現經滋擾的狀況的話"},{"start":643.126,"end":656.926,"text":"我們特勤維安人員是可以來進行交通的管制以及人員的查核還有他的攜帶物件的查核因為跟我們說明一下在車隊行進或是維安對向上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點"},{"start":658.408,"end":683.57,"text":"當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候我同意啊 我只是說齁你們要講清楚你們要講清楚說因為過去沒有發生這樣子的案例嘛過去一般總統車隊我也拍過很多人都拍過啊上下車遠遠的拍很多人都拍過很多人他只是覺得說這個車隊第一次看到他拿手機就拍了那如果現在這樣子的行為你們認為不行的話要明確的告知社會大眾"},{"start":684.491,"end":699.356,"text":"不然每次大家拿手機出來拍然後都有人講說你現在已經違法了大家都會覺得奇怪啊那我只是拍一個車隊而已我怎麼就違法了呢所以你剛剛講的如果你們現在認定說我們的安全途徑是現在民眾看到總統的車隊來了拿手機拍攝是會有您剛剛提出的這樣的問題請清楚的向民眾做出說明避免未來再有爭議謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時10分）謝謝主席，我們請蔡明彥蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：局長好。您在今天的書面報告第13頁提到中共利用新興技術擾亂我國輿論場域，並列出相關的數量。去年選舉之前，政府有成立一個「全國性重大假訊息案件處理中心」，有些案件後續沒有結果，也有的是選後才定調，這對許多候選人也造成不小的傷害。","假消息跟是否為中共操控輿論戰或境外勢力介入並不是同一件事情，請問局長，既然你們已經偵蒐到這麼多案件，一般民眾要如何界定這些訊息到底從何而來？是來自境外、中共，還是臺灣自己，可能民眾誤傳的消息？因為這當中有非常大的差異，如果說中共藉由網路水軍與融媒體等多層次途徑，對臺散播攻訐政府及疑美等相關爭訊，謀加劇我內部對立，這還比較單純，但也有一些是我們臺灣的民眾認為政府做得不好，或者是對美國有一些批判，這就不能把它算在所謂境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作，這兩者之間還是有分別的。請問你們有沒有任何途徑或管道能夠公開告訴大家，哪些才是你們認為的境外勢力或中共的擾亂？否則所謂「加劇我內部對立」，就變成是我們自己。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，事實上對於境外勢力爭議訊息的散布，我們有一個查找的系統，我們講所謂有問題的異常帳號，大部分都是在中共的運作網絡當中傳散中共所傳布的資訊，而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有比較日常的一些資訊。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們有沒有具體的案例？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個案例非常多。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我是說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例？"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是為什麼我們在今年年初有特別公布一份公開版的報告，國安局第一次公布公開版的報告來說明中共相關爭訊的傳播手法。"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在問你嘛！你現在拿一個案例告訴我說，你們國安局調查到哪一個是中共曾經擾亂臺灣的相關案例嘛！有關你剛剛說的網路水軍與融媒體等多層次途徑的具體案例。"],["蔡局長明彥：非常多啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：請你提出一個嘛！你跟我講「非常多」，我現在就請你提出一個案例。今天這麼多媒體在現場，會議過程也是直播的，你提供一個案例有很難嗎？","我接下來先問你，你不要跟我講「非常多」！因為現在很多使用AI或者是透過網路，比方說我相信局長應該有聽過「本應該從從容容、游刃有餘，現在是匆匆忙忙、連滾帶爬，睜眼說瞎話！你在哽咽什麼啦？你在哭什麼哭？沒出息！」這首歌曲。可是我們就有立法委員認為這樣子的歌曲不要聽，因為這是中共設計用來統戰的。請問局長，您認為「沒出息」這首歌是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎？你們國安局的查核是如何？"],["蔡局長明彥：還是要看到它的內容和傳散的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒看過嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我大概看過。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你沒看過它的傳散狀況嗎？透過哪些平臺？是誰在傳播？有哪些人看過了？歌曲內容是什麼？沒看過嗎？國安局沒有做過調查嗎？連立法委員王義川都說不可以聽，因為這是中共設計用來統戰的，已經有立委公開說這是統戰，那麼國安局的調查是如何呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明一下，這有兩個層面，第一個，我們會做出比較總體性的、相關的傳散數字，這是第一個部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：我就問這個個案嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個是個案，國安局會介入來針對每一個個案進行查察的話，一定是要拉高到國安的層級，一般政治人物之間彼此可能是影音的攻防，我們不會去涉入。"],["徐委員巧芯：這跟影音攻防有什麼關係？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一般會涉入的話，大部分都是涉及……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以如果今天中共有做一個……假設像王義川委員所說的，中共做了一首歌曲或者是一個訊息要來統戰臺灣，你認為這也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係，國安局不需要介入調查嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有分類。"],["徐委員巧芯：那請問為什麼你們在書面報告第13頁會說「中共尤藉異常粉專，以知名電影或動畫為素材，運用AI技術『二次創作』產製『迷因式』影音，操作『臺美關稅談判』、『漢光演習』、『罷免投票』及『能源政策』等議題爭訊，並利用異常帳號於我輿論場域擴大渲染……」？這就是類似的情況啊！那你們……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，我要說明清楚，所謂「爭訊」的部分，假如涉及國安層級的話，它大概有幾個部分，一個部分是涉及對元首的誣衊，第二部分是涉及我們對外重要關係的發展，第三個部分是在國家重大災情或……"],["徐委員巧芯：罷免投票的部分會對元首有什麼樣的誣衊？"],["蔡局長明彥：國家重大災情或國家重要選舉期間，這些爭訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災，我們國安局會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，有關「二創」（二次創作）的部分，本席現在出示的本來是國民黨所做的一個CF，之後就有其他網友做了相關的二創。請問你們談到運用AI技術，操作罷免議題爭訊的時候，這算不算是你所說的，中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域？就你們的調查。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員提到的是政黨的選舉……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是罷免期間、公投期間，有一個國民黨所做的正版CF，後面很多網友也做了二創的，請問像這樣的民眾二創會被國安局拿去檢查或偵辦是否為AI或中共利用新興技術的擾亂嗎？對於這樣的內容，你們是不是有查核呢？你們認為是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：看狀況，要看相關的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們每個都看狀況？那人家立法委員都公開檢舉說「沒出息」這首歌是中共統戰了，你們看起來也不在意啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：一般的檢舉如果是走刑事案件提告的話，那就是走司法系統，我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大影響，才會由國安局來……"],["徐委員巧芯：統戰不是國安的重大影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：要看它的案情。我剛剛已經跟委員說明過了，要看狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以嘛！我剛剛講，王義川委員說「沒出息」這首歌是中共設計來統戰的，如果真的是這樣的話，那很危險！現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲，所有人都在傳唱，它不就是一種很大力的統戰嗎？如果真的像王義川委員所說的這麼嚴重，國安局不應該有反應嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：第一個是行為者，假如是中共傳散的，這是一個部分；第二個……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是不是嘛！你們去研究了沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個是它傳散的內容，我剛剛跟委員說明……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如爭訊的內容是涉及國安層次的元首、對外關係、救災或是相關的重大疫情，會影響的，我們才會來處理，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以你認為「沒出息」這首歌沒有問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：媒體上的這種個案太多了！我們國安局……"],["徐委員巧芯：太多了？所以沒有關係？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題。謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你覺得這首歌國安局不需要去做任何調查、不需要去做任何研究，因為沒有涉及總統跟選舉，跟統不統戰也沒有關係，是這個意思吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：既然當事人已經檢舉提告了，那就由司法去處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：他沒有檢舉提告嘛！就是每個人都可以公開講說這個是統戰、這個是什麼樣的情況，每個人都可以講啊！當大家都在講的時候，我就問嘛，每個人都在講這是統戰，那國安局對於統戰認為哪些是、哪些不是，如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話，請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢？最後加深內部對立的人是誰？就是我們國人跟國人之間啊！","請主席再給我1分鐘，我要問一下警政署，因為這是大家相當關注的問題。我簡單問就好了。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：高雄日前發生一起警民糾紛，有一個民眾在鳥松區拍攝總統車隊經過，我們看到影片了，他被現場員警制止，說是違法，然後影片曝光，引起輿論爭議，說這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界限所引發出來的爭論。員警說他執行公務是按照法條規定，並列出刑法第一百三十五條、第一百三十六條、第一百三十八條、第一百四十條及一百四十一條，認為拍攝者妨礙社會秩序；拍攝者說他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊，而員警說因為他們在執行特種勤務，拍特種勤務就是違法；拍攝者就問所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎？員警說對。然後拍攝者就問，哪一條法規規定不能拍？對話至此就被中斷了。本席想請問一下，現在在臺灣拍攝元首車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重，因為維安勤務的關係，就是會違反刑法這五個條文，未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候，是不能拍攝的，是嗎？"],["主席：請摘要回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：請摘要回答就好。"],["張署長榮興：我想這個也不見得是這樣的狀況，對於總統的維安，道路警衛是負責沿途的安全；針對這個個案，我們會去了解，原則上總統的維安是一定要保障總統的安全……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然嘛！我問的是拍攝，因為時間有限，請你們確定好，民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝，到底是不是國安問題？能不能夠拍攝？這件事情必須要說明跟釐清。"],["主席：局長要回答嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：局長想回答？"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明一下，因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點，假如我們安維的對象，其行進的動線有可能出現滋擾狀況的話，我們特勤維安人員可以來進行交通管制，以及人員的查核，還有他所攜帶物件的查核。跟委員說明一下，車隊行進或是維安對象上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點，當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候遇襲……"],["徐委員巧芯：我同意，我只是說你們要講清楚……"],["蔡局長明彥：在執勤過程中……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，你們要講清楚，因為過去沒有發生這樣的案例，過去一般總統車隊經過，我拍過，很多人也拍過，上下車，遠遠的拍，很多人都拍過。很多人第一次看到這個車隊，就拿手機拍了！如果你們現在認為這樣的行為不行的話，就要明確的告知社會大眾，不然每次大家拿手機出來拍，然後就有人說你現在已經違法了，大家會覺得奇怪啊，我只是拍個車隊，怎麼就違法了呢？所以你剛剛講的，如果你們認為，民眾現在看到總統的車隊來了，拿手機拍攝，會有您剛剛提出的這個問題，請清楚地向民眾做出說明，避免未來再有爭議。謝謝！"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：你的意思完整表達了，請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是王鴻薇委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","陳永康","羅美玲","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00003"}}},{"i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那副秘書長喝水了嗎好 謝謝 那有請陳委員好好 今天早上我聽了幾個委員的質詢我想要提一下我個人的觀感我剛才聽到歐小玲委員在問這個關於院長請假的部分一直以來我知道你們都做了非常多的說明但是我在這裡要公開譴責相關委員的發言我認為這是沒有人性到的極致"},{"start":31.209,"end":53.175,"text":"在成為一個政治人物之前我們每一個都是一個很重要的有獨立思考的個體我們必須要先是一個人才可以是一個政治工作者但很可惜的是我們看到非常多在野黨的委員屢次用院長現在的狀況攻擊監察院甚至做出很多不實的指控我想監察院這邊應該要更具體的"},{"start":54.235,"end":81.587,"text":"硬起來把你們的態度把對於人的關懷說清楚說明白而不是一再成為在野黨委員消費的工具這個部分可不可以請你們簡單回應一下就是謝謝委員提及那有關於本院院長的請假的那個部分的確是當然是因為身體的關係不得已請假那可是"},{"start":82.327,"end":104.233,"text":"院長請假完全依照法律的規定在處理完全沒有任何的調整折扣而且相關的程序我們也都有呈報到總統那邊這個是第一點第二點呢是院長自己主動願意拋棄他的心縫這個這一點是院長主動的也沒有任何的"},{"start":105.333,"end":130.41,"text":"院裡面也沒有任何的要求也不是外界要求是院長主動那這點應該要完全與尊重那我們也曾經發新聞稿說明過所以呢其他的部分至於說細項的部分有很多的部分一定是屬於個人資料的部分就依法就是不得公開的那也不方便再做進一步的捧清那我可以說的是"},{"start":131.391,"end":155.118,"text":"的確是主動繳回而且是他的興奉就是主動繳回好 謝謝您的說明我認為我也要呼籲所有在野黨委員請就此停住不要再做人身攻擊不要忘了自己也是一個人也不要忘了你家中可能也有親戚朋友長輩可能也正在醫院也正需要醫療的照顧我想這件事情非常非常的重要"},{"start":155.538,"end":184.918,"text":"接下来我想跟你谈一谈关于花莲县政府有非常多荒谬的行为除了刚刚CL委员说的眼色胡的事情之外我想跟你讨论几个案子来第一个我们办公室上个礼拜才陪同被禅光育幼院开除的前院长开了一个记者会因为禅光育幼院其实在监察院的报告里面我们也看出花莲县政府在身为禅光育幼院的地方主管机关到底做错了哪些事情来第一个我们来看一下"},{"start":185.658,"end":207.417,"text":"你們給了非常非常多的建議看到監察院的報告裡面說花蓮縣政府沒有在第一時間認定禪光育幼院有所謂的不當對待甚至有非常多起的不當對待是在這個院長到任之前其實禪光育幼院長期就有這個現象而花蓮縣政府長期忽視這個事情非常的嚴重還有相關的通報也非常的消極"},{"start":210.68,"end":223.011,"text":"甚至在院裡面發生所謂性平事件也沒有按照流程來處理還有禪光育幼院裡面的工作人員專業資能不足 評鑑成績不佳但縣政府沒有積極的協助 沒有積極的督導還有縣政府也沒有依照兒少權法修法調整裁罰基準甚至我們發現禪光的董事會組成還違反了財團法人法"},{"start":237.203,"end":256.154,"text":"這個是監察院身為非常重要的監督機關所給予花蓮縣政府的提醒跟糾正我們再往下看花蓮縣政府荒謬不是只有這一件在前一陣子有議員踢爆說花蓮耗資千億蓋餐具清洗中心結果可笑的是"},{"start":257.294,"end":276.208,"text":"縣政府設定的要去用這個餐具清洗中心是所謂東大門夜市的業者現場超過1000攤但是業者說從來沒有人問過我們清洗中心要怎麼用要怎麼收費才合理所以目前其實並沒有業者開始使用這個所謂的餐具清洗中心甚至呢"},{"start":278.249,"end":305.266,"text":"之前清洗中心的硬體設施已經進入驗收階段卻被爆料出來說在興建之前根本也沒有進行先期評估而到目前為止也沒有業者敢去承包委外經營的業務勢必這一棟館耗資千億的餐具清洗中心會再成為花蓮縣的文字館加一這件事情也非常的荒謬再往下看"},{"start":306.806,"end":325.304,"text":"眼色湖的事件我們看到有非常多的委員也在質詢我非常認同司藥委員剛剛所說的不管是中央還是地方政府有責任該查我們就查該負責就要負責在非常多悲傷的案例當中我們看到另外一個比較正向的花蓮縣政府"},{"start":325.945,"end":342.478,"text":"沒有好好指揮但是大馬村村長王村長他的女兒本身也是我們台灣的足球國手女足國手我們看到這個困境而當時呢到目前為止我們看到更荒謬現象我們往下看昨天有一個相關的新聞喔"},{"start":344.386,"end":366.283,"text":"在地方跟中央當地的救災團隊大家為了快速溝通很多事情所以組成了一個所謂對話群組結果呢在昨天其實是前一天的晚上發生了一個荒謬的事情由花蓮縣民政局帶頭退出這個對話群組然後呢已讀不回"},{"start":367.083,"end":380.388,"text":"甚至還說以後有任何行政指導請以正式公文或會議傳達講到目前為止我講了非常多花蓮縣政府荒謬的狀況我們再往下看"},{"start":384.495,"end":391.2,"text":"0206有很大一筆錢當年捐進花蓮縣政府在2018年的時候而這筆善款呢當時湧入了28億我再次強調28億而這筆善款呢"},{"start":399.485,"end":426.654,"text":"當時他的管理機關是花蓮縣政府因為他們成立了一個花蓮縣重大災害民間震災捐款專戶管理委員會而這個委員會的主管機關就是花蓮縣政府這是不是一種求援兼裁判結果被有心的網友認真的盤點了相關他們所謂公佈他們認為自己有透明他們有公開的相關善款明細我們看到一年花光10億"},{"start":428.374,"end":453.59,"text":"甚至有非常多的這些錢的去處是去支應花蓮縣當地的公共基礎建設根本沒有用在所謂受災災民身上但是不要忘記當時台灣人熱情湧入這個28億的捐款是為了直接幫助災民但卻變成縣政府的小金庫拿去做所謂公共基礎建設這是合理的嗎"},{"start":454.932,"end":481.379,"text":"再來下一個甚至我們之前就有看到有非常多的網友有分享一個照片他說他當時就是有捐款給花蓮縣政府甚至還收到一個荒謬的光碟這個光碟裡面滿滿的是花蓮縣政府當時的縣長他們自己的豐功偉業的一個照片紀錄光碟紀錄跟副秘書長報告我自己的好多朋友也有收到我自己也有收到我當年也有捐款"},{"start":482.679,"end":499.333,"text":"我覺得非常非常的荒謬到目前為止當然你們就這個案子有糾正過還有限制性招標的問題啦地震專輯啦光碟壓制動用不同預算科目還有甚至辦所謂感恩參會還有就是用一千多萬辦所謂的聯合祭典還有大法會"},{"start":501.054,"end":511.933,"text":"甚至花蓮縣政府這幾年也在非常多地方預算裡面你們也有糾正過他們不斷的辦所謂五教六教聯合法會這個其實都有非常非常多的問題"},{"start":513.416,"end":541.273,"text":"好還有7.2億到哪裡去了花蓮縣政府的議員也直接問花蓮縣政府我講了這麼多花了七八分鐘講這麼多我要直接說花蓮縣政府不管是傅寬琦委員當縣長的時候或者是徐振蔚縣長夫妻輪流執政輪流當縣長輪流當立法委員把花蓮當成自己的囊中物的這二十幾年當中花蓮縣政府整個花蓮縣變成一個大家不想去的地方"},{"start":542.594,"end":569.304,"text":"而這一次有非常多產值超人然後網路上也有非常多的義工網路上有非常多的物資超人各式各樣的超人大家用自己的心去支持花蓮可是我們看到的是富坤崎委員繼續在中央甩鍋給中央到地方甩鍋給自己的鄉鎮市政府鄉鎮市區公所這些主管們他自己沒有事情徐政衛也沒有事情所以我要再次呼籲拜託監察院"},{"start":571.001,"end":589.635,"text":"第一個我希望我們所有的善款不管是過去或者是目前我要跟您報告目前花蓮縣政府針對這一次的顏色湖風災他們有開捐款帳戶喔當然已經有很多民眾呼籲不要捐給花蓮縣政府請直接捐到衛福部主管這個震災基金會"},{"start":590.396,"end":597.218,"text":"所以確實台灣人這一次做出了相對明智的選擇可是我要再次提醒連韓國瑜院長都在他自己的社群媒體上發文說他捐錢給花蓮縣政府關心顏色湖的災民連我們的韓國瑜院長都做了看起來不大明智的選擇我當然尊重他他有他的判斷但是我要說大部分人跟他選擇是不一樣的"},{"start":613.404,"end":614.407,"text":"所以我想後續不管是這一次顏色湖或是之前0206的花蓮正哉的這些善款監察院這邊我們還有什麼樣的角色可以監督"},{"start":623.763,"end":652.794,"text":"跟委員說明一下那個花蓮0206的這個地震 震災的那個部分我們是有調查案也有糾正剛剛委員有說明那有關於善款的那個部分呢看看因為那個原案應該已經結案了因為時間比較長久那看看善款的部分有沒有後續在追蹤的部分好 那這一次呢包含這一次這一次的部分目前剛剛立案"},{"start":653.834,"end":681.809,"text":"剛剛10月2號才立案的所以就是原則上調查委員是希望以救災優先我們尊重絕對救災優先而且還有重建的議題是所以我們是會尊重調查委員的一個職權那相關的委員的意見我們會轉達給調查委員因為這一次顏色虎真的不是只有錢的問題我要提醒我要呼籲社會大眾一起關注人命關天"},{"start":682.589,"end":708.596,"text":"這一次有非常多人因此而上身就是因為縣政府撤離計畫不清不楚甚至我們的縣長還出國沒有在第一時間跟中央指揮緊急應變中心站在一起是有傅坤祺委員參與甚至傅坤祺委員自己公開說縣長出國是因為內政部部長打電話給他他才回國的我認為相關疏失我們要積極的監督好不好好謝謝監察院謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":490,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時10分）副秘書長喝水了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那有請。"],["王代理秘書長增華：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：今天早上，我聽了幾個委員的質詢，我想提一下我個人的觀感。剛才聽到翁曉玲委員在問院長請假的部分，我知道你們一直以來都做了非常多的說明，但是我在這裡要公開譴責相關委員的發言，我認為這是沒有人性到了極致。在成為一個政治人物之前，我們每個人都是一個很重要的、有獨立思考的個體，我們必須要先是一個人，才可以是一個政治工作者；很可惜的是，我們看到非常多在野黨的委員，屢次用院長現在的狀況來攻擊監察院，甚至做出很多不實的指控，我想監察院這邊應該要更具體地硬起來，把你們的態度，把對於人的關懷，說清楚、說明白，而不是一再成為在野黨委員消費的工具。這個部分可不可以請你們簡單回應一下？"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝委員提及，有關本院院長請假的那個部分，的確是因為身體的關係，不得已請假；院長請假完全依照法律的規定處理，完全沒有任何的調整、折扣，相關的程序我們也都有呈報到總統那邊，這是第一點。第二點院長是自己主動願意拋棄他的薪俸，這一點是院長主動的，院裡面沒有任何的要求，也不是外界要求，是院長主動，這一點應該完全予以尊重。我們也曾經發新聞稿說明，至於細項的部分，有很多是屬於個人資料的部分，依法是不得公開的，也不方便再做進一步的剖析。我可以說的確是主動繳回，他的薪俸就是主動繳回。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝您的說明，我也要呼籲所有在野黨委員，請就此停住，不要再做人身攻擊，不要忘了自己也是一個人，也不要忘了你家中可能也有親戚、朋友、長輩也正在醫院，正需要醫療的照顧，我想這件事情非常非常的重要。","接下來我想跟你談一談，花蓮縣政府有非常多荒謬的行為，除了剛剛思瑤委員說的堰塞湖事件之外，我想跟你討論幾個案子。首先，我們辦公室上個禮拜才陪同禪光育幼院被開除的前院長開了一個記者會，其實在監察院的報告裡面，我們看到花蓮縣政府身為禪光育幼院的地方主管機關，到底做錯了哪些事情？第一個，你們給了非常、非常多的建議，在監察院的報告裡面說，花蓮縣政府沒有在第一時間認定禪光育幼院有所謂的不當對待，甚至有非常多起的不當對待是在這個院長到任之前，禪光育幼院長期就有這個現象，而花蓮縣政府長期忽視，這個事情非常的嚴重，還有相關的通報也非常的消極，甚至在院裡面發生所謂的性平事件，也沒有按照流程來處理，還有禪光育幼院裡面的工作人員專業知能不足，評鑑成績不佳，縣政府沒有積極的協助，沒有積極的督導，也沒有依照兒少權法的修法，調整裁罰基準，我們甚至發現禪光董事會的組成還違反了財團法人法。這個是非常重要的監督機關──監察院所給予花蓮縣政府的提醒跟糾正。","我們再往下看，花蓮縣政府荒謬的不是只有這一件。前一陣子，有議員踢爆說花蓮耗資千億蓋餐具清洗中心，可笑的是，縣政府設定要去用這個餐具清洗中心是東大門夜市的業者，現場超過一千攤；但有業者說，從來沒有人問過我們清洗中心要怎麼用，要怎麼收費才合理，所以，目前並沒有業者開始使用這個餐具清洗中心。之前，清洗中心的硬體設施已經進入驗收階段，卻被爆料說，在興建之前根本也沒有進行先期評估，而到目前為止，也沒有業者敢去承包委外經營的業務，這一棟耗資千億的餐具清洗中心，勢必會再成為花蓮縣的蚊子館，加一。這件事情也非常的荒謬。","至於堰塞湖事件，我們看到非常多委員也在質詢，我非常認同思瑤委員剛剛所說的，不管是中央還是地方政府，有責任該查，我們就查，該負責就要負責。在非常多悲傷的案例當中，花蓮縣政府沒有好好指揮，但是我們看到另外一個比較正向的事件，大馬村的王村長，他的女兒也是我們臺灣的女足國手；另外我們還看到更荒謬的現象，昨天有一個相關的新聞，提到地方跟中央在當地的救災團隊為了快速溝通很多事情，所組成的一個對話群組，結果在昨天，其實是前一天的晚上，由花蓮縣民政局帶頭退出這個對話群組，然後已讀不回，甚至還說以後有任何行政指導，請以正式公文或會議傳達。目前為止，我講了非常多花蓮縣政府荒謬的狀況。","我們再往下看，在2018年0206震災的時候，有很大一筆錢捐進花蓮縣政府，當時共湧入了28億的善款，我再次強調28億！這筆善款當時的管理機關是花蓮縣政府，因為他們成立了一個花蓮縣重大災害民間賑災捐款專戶管理委員會，該委員會的主管機關就是花蓮縣政府，這是不是一種球員兼裁判啊？結果被有心的網友認真盤點他們認為自己有透明、有公開的相關善款明細，我們看到一年花光10億，甚至有非常多錢的去處是去支應花蓮縣當地的公共基礎建設，根本沒有用在所謂受災災民身上。但不要忘記當時臺灣人熱情湧入這28億的捐款，是想直接幫助災民，但卻變成縣政府的小金庫，拿去做所謂公共基礎建設，這是合理的嗎？","甚至我們之前也看到非常多的網友分享一張照片，他說他當時有捐款給花蓮縣政府，後來收到一片荒謬的光碟，裡面滿滿的是花蓮縣政府當時縣長自己豐功偉業的一個照片紀錄、光碟紀錄。跟副秘書長報告，我好多的朋友有收到，我自己也有收到，因為我當年也有捐款。我覺得非常非常的荒謬！當然你們也有就這個案子糾正過。還有限制性招標的問題，地震專輯、光碟壓製，動用不同預算科目等等，甚至還辦所謂的感恩餐會，動用一千多萬辦所謂的聯合祭典大法會，你們也有糾正過。花蓮縣政府這幾年在地方預算裡面，不斷地辦所謂五教、六教聯合法會，這個其實都有非常非常多的問題。還有7.2億到哪裡去了？花蓮縣政府的議員也曾直接問過花蓮縣政府。","花了七、八分鐘講這麼多，我要直接說：花蓮縣政府不管是傅崐萁委員當縣長，或者是徐榛蔚縣長，夫妻輪流執政，輪流當縣長，輪流當立法委員，把花蓮當成自己囊中物的這二十幾年當中，整個花蓮縣變成一個大家不想去的地方。而這一次有非常多鏟子超人，然後網路上有非常多的義工，網路上有非常多的物資超人，各式各樣的超人大家用自己的心去支持花蓮，可是我們看到的是傅崐萁委員繼續在中央甩鍋給中央，到地方甩鍋給自己的鄉鎮市區公所這些主管們，他自己沒有事情，徐榛蔚也沒有事情。所以我要再次呼籲，拜託監察院，第一個，我希望我們所有的善款，不管是過去或者是目前，我也要跟您報告，目前花蓮縣政府針對這一次的堰塞湖風災，他們也有開捐款帳戶喔！當然已經有很多民眾呼籲不要捐給花蓮縣政府，請直接捐到衛福部主管的賑災基金會，所以確實臺灣人這一次做出了相對明智的選擇。","可是我要再次提醒，連韓國瑜院長都在他自己的社群媒體上發文，說他捐錢給花蓮縣政府，關心堰塞湖的災民，連我們的韓國瑜院長都做了看起來不大明智的選擇，我當然尊重他，因為他有他的判斷，但是我要說，大部分人跟他的選擇是不一樣的，所以我想後續不管是這一次堰塞湖或是之前0206花蓮震災的這些善款，監察院這邊還有什麼樣的角色可以監督？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明一下，花蓮0206地震賑災的部分，我們是有調查案，也有糾正，剛剛委員有說明。有關於善款的部分，原案應該已經結案了，因為時間比較長久，所以要看善款有沒有後續追蹤的部分，我們再提出說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那這一次呢？包含這一次。"],["王代理秘書長增華：這一次的部分，目前剛剛立案。"],["陳委員培瑜：剛剛立案。"],["王代理秘書長增華：10月2日才立案的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["王代理秘書長增華：原則上調查委員是希望以救災優先，所以我們……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們尊重，絕對救災優先。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且還有重建的議題。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，好。"],["王代理秘書長增華：所以我們會尊重調查委員的職權，然後委員相關的意見我們會轉達給調查委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為這一次堰塞湖真的不是只有錢的問題，我要提醒，我也要呼籲社會大眾一起關注，人命關天，這一次有非常多人因此而喪生，就是因為縣政府撤離計畫不清不楚，甚至我們的縣長還出國，沒有在第一時間跟中央緊急應變中心站在一起，而是由傅崐萁委員參與，甚至傅崐萁委員自己公開說，縣長出國是因為內政部部長打電話給他他才回國的，我認為相關疏失我們要積極地監督，好不好？好，謝謝監察院，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的詢答。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時22分）","繼續開會（11時28分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來請傅崐萁委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","吳宗憲","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","羅智強"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00006"}}},{"id":"164147","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164147","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6a8f67ff2a2d07a6e1d8817d393176c4392e8362d61d61ef2befde21dfa2b36bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:10:19 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今年的一個檢驗今年的一期到座 價格是不錯是價格差不多平均 本來我是不清楚 但是我們加一平均起來差不多就有清一口左右 對甚至就比較高其實也有"},{"start":77.244,"end":104.876,"text":"這個產地價如果全台灣平均的話它是1132塊全台灣平均1億32然後比去年增加了123塊每百台金這增加的幅度是大的然後如果說講公糧因為大家那時候很重視公糧那事實上我們推出這個方案不只照顧公糧也照顧非公糧的種稻業者也照顧了我們就提高了公糧的部分在福島收購跟雲梁收購"},{"start":105.356,"end":134.244,"text":"他的價格跟他的數量都提高嘛對 但是他繳公糧的反而變少了喔對 我是覺得說這件事的成功就是在於說如果113年度第一期到座繳公糧的是29.8萬公噸那114年的時候變成27.9萬公噸那表示繳公糧的反而少了照理我們提高要增加收購公糧的數量應該要繳的要增加 結果反而少了這是一個好現象"},{"start":134.864,"end":156.005,"text":"就是這要招去民糧招去民糧而且民糧它是有品牌的那有品牌的話它的米的米質種那個U值品種的比例也變高了那後續的話我想這個台灣的米的品牌的形象就可以建立得更完善然後未來銷到其他的國家的話也可以用這個U值米來行銷"},{"start":157.466,"end":170.499,"text":"沒有錯所以這是第一類 就是說這個政策第一個我跟農業部 大家鼓掌第一個讓我們的糧價有提高第二個我看到轉做公糧的面積也提高了轉做雜糧的面積也提高了轉做雜糧的面積增加了2009公頃那我們也提高了雜糧轉做"},{"start":180.149,"end":190.376,"text":"一家東達一家一萬戸看起來這個誘因也出來喔這家庭轉租的部分大概我們最後統計是2905公頃對2905公頃那表示說我們的政策除了要照顧稻農以外也要照顧雜糧的農民"},{"start":197.341,"end":223.467,"text":"那這個方案其實是已經都有照顧到對 所以看起來這個一期二轉三加三我們這個在今年一期的時候已經看到成果了是啊 二期的部分因為我們這裡剛才就添災災害所以我們二期我們可能看不到在其他的縣市可以反映到所以我想要請教部長那其他的縣市在於今年的這個糧價你一樣會有信心嗎 今年二期的到座我們絕對有信心 現在開始開盤了嘛現在開盤大概是1100塊"},{"start":227.004,"end":233.993,"text":"1100嘛所以已經比去年同期增加了80塊現在開盤的價因為現在是二季啦現在已經開了11月8號開始開盤那開盤的價格大概1100每百台金1100如果二期來說這個數字聽起來已經很不錯了也是不錯的數字"},{"start":244.727,"end":261.315,"text":"所以我覺得我們的政策方向走對的事實上有些是硬要打你硬要打我們這樣賣事實上最後的結果才是定輸贏所以我覺得這個政策方向對我們應該要繼續支持當然我們現在剛剛有去講到的說黃曉玉的進口的事情會不會衝擊到國內的市場事實上我只想跟部長反映"},{"start":270.919,"end":286.335,"text":"他們黃小玉本來台灣的產量就非常不足啦我們都不到一成啦都90幾%都是靠進口但是一直大量依賴進口可是我看到的韓民是完全不同的一個層次所以就是我感覺起來"},{"start":287.156,"end":288.316,"text":"這個就是我們現在持續在跟飼料公會在談的就是說第一個部分就是"},{"start":310.442,"end":336.153,"text":"他們透過聯合採購可以把價格壓低一點以外那相對的他們的營業稅跟關稅的部分我們也持續的有一些優惠那這些優惠我們都要求他們要回饋到農民 要回饋到農民目前我看起來 回饋到農民的層數沒有因為真的介紹在那裡 尤其部長你可以了解一下漁業署去關心一下魚飼料 哇 漲了一倍耶魚飼料"},{"start":337.718,"end":353.946,"text":"真的是有漲這個我們再來持續那特別的產品你剛才講的魚飼料特別的產品我們再來關注但是我們近期也會找這些飼料公會的部分我講的當然是有基期啦不是短期內我講的是這幾年來所以這個飼料的價格會提高這一個已經傷害到了農民"},{"start":360.109,"end":363.452,"text":"現在有一點變成說 我覺得現在的生理人也有點過分他看到農民 我回到剛才的車子來說看到農民的車子修繩好 你知道他每天後面生產線的每天工資送給你去給"},{"start":379.405,"end":400.273,"text":"你肥料也給你去給農業也給你去給一行就給你去去去就等於農民的收入又把它吃掉了這件事情我覺得部長我們再關心一下謝謝委員提醒就是說這些產業鏈裡面的東西不能因為農民的收益提高了他的什麼插秧費啊 整地費啊又要連動的提高這樣的話農民的收益會被稀釋"},{"start":401.213,"end":429.946,"text":"農民價格好 他們對的有變這個部分我想我們會來關注又把農民的收益又吃掉了那我最後在短短的時間我來講就是說我們現在在野保法我們事實上都有編了一個針對外來種去侵害到本土的一些叫做野生動物野生動物的時候你看我們在處理埃及聖環效果很好確實讓它數量大幅的減少"},{"start":430.686,"end":446.795,"text":"那現在這個濾劣溪我們有編這個補助然後去做用獵人去把它做這個移除的這個動作去做這個管制都有產生效果那我現在要跟部長講事實上山區很多真的活害"},{"start":449.396,"end":462.82,"text":"這要繳多天 這真的是很痛而且它對於農作的損害 非常的嚴重這些猴子 他們奇怪 他們也不是要去吃東西他們那些都是用刺刀的手扶一塊 手扶一塊 手扶一塊 手扶一塊兩隻腳就要用 用尾巴就要繳一塊再來割一刺 繳一刺就割一塊"},{"start":478.064,"end":494.989,"text":"就根本要把我們送回去所以對農民來說真的是很無奈所以我在想說也許我們因為現在這個猕猴也已經不是保育類動物也許我們也是要正視這個問題然後替農民來解決這些猴害的問題部長這個是不是請你來"},{"start":497.731,"end":512.59,"text":"這個猕猴已經不是保育類動物牠如果牽扯到我們的生命財產的時候我們是可以去做菩薩的動作只是因為猕猴本身牠的樣子讓人家不願意去動手不過我在這邊也不是危言聳聽以現在的猕猴如果說"},{"start":513.231,"end":534.065,"text":"我們再不有一個更積極的一個防治作為的時候未來五年齁那相對的齁 這個迷惑不只是在田間齁可能都會走進市區所以我們可能必須要一起來努力有時候齁 這是出一個無奈啦可是我們也認真去想埃及聖環牠是鳥類啊牠長得不像人啊齁阿綠類蜥蜥是爬蟲類啊長得不像人啊齁 阿這個齁 誰做肉的都齁肉的人沒你們的錢就算了連動物圈就沒了捏齁"},{"start":543.391,"end":548.018,"text":"人家誰做飯的很可憐 人模人樣的說那些就要保護大家這是真的 我覺得我們還是要站在真的產業然後生態的一個平衡然後有時候我們該做適度的處理還是要處理好不好"},{"start":559.755,"end":586.771,"text":"對外徵求一些有沒有比較好的方法可以來做一些防治的部分那這個部分可能要再更加力道去做一些思考一下啦到底要怎麼做啦因為我在看我們在處理埃及盛環跟處理綠葉溪看起來成果是有的如果既然這樣的成果是有的我們事實上有時候還是站在說怎麼樣去達到一個適度的生態平衡如果這個生態已經失控了"},{"start":587.251,"end":592.398,"text":"我覺得我們站在政府的部門還是要介入 好不好了解好 謝謝謝謝蔡議員的諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":698,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時10分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，聽了早上的質詢，事實上有一些資訊內容是少了實證、少了科學根據，我覺得這樣不好，很多事情應該就事論事，以科學為背景，這個很重要。","接下來我還是要提到我們從去年就一直討論的問題，就是有關糧食產業升級計畫，農業部推出了「1集、2轉、3加3」，經過今年的檢驗，今年一期稻作的價格不錯，別的地方我不清楚，但以我們嘉義來講，平均價格差不多在1,100元左右，甚至再高一點也有。"],["陳部長駿季：是，跟委員報告，如果以全臺灣的平均產地價來看，是1,132元……"],["蔡委員易餘：全臺灣平均1,132元？"],["陳部長駿季：對，每百台斤比去年增加了123元。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以增加的幅度是大的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，有2塊多，在公糧部分，因為那時候大家很重視公糧，事實上我們推出這個方案，不只照顧公糧，也照顧非公糧的種稻業者，照顧……"],["蔡委員易餘：在提高公糧收購部分，輔導收購和餘糧收購的價格跟數量都有提高。"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是繳公糧的反而變少了，表示……"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這件事情的成功在於113年度第一期稻作繳公糧是29.8萬公噸，而114年時變成27.9萬公噸，表示繳公糧的反而少了，照理講，我們提高、增加收購公糧的數量，繳的量應該要增加，結果反而變少，這是一個好現象，表示這些稻米跑到哪裡？跑到民糧去了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，跑到民糧，而且民糧是有品牌的，有品牌的話，那麼它種優質品種的比例也就變高，後續我想臺灣米的品牌形象就可以建立得更完善，未來銷到其他國家也可以用這個優質米來行銷。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有錯，所以這個政策我為農業部鼓掌，第一個，讓我們的糧價提高；第二個，轉作雜糧的面積也提高……"],["陳部長駿季：轉作雜糧的面積提高了。"],["蔡委員易餘：轉作雜糧的面積增加2,009公頃，我們也提高雜糧轉作的補助，「一甲當」1萬元，看起來這個誘因的效果也出來了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，轉作的部分，我們最後統計是2,905公頃，表示我們的政策除了照顧稻農以外，也照顧到種植雜糧的農民，這個方案其實是已經都有照顧到。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，看起來這個「1集、2轉、3加3」在今年一期已經看到成果。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：二期的部分，因為我們那邊遇到天然災害，所以二期部分可能看不到，但其他縣市可以反應到，所以我想請教部長，今年其他縣市的糧價，就是今年二期稻作，你一樣有信心嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對有信心，現在開始開盤了，開盤大概是1,100元，已經比去年同期增加80元。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在開盤的價，現在是二期？"],["陳部長駿季：對，二期現在已經開盤了，10月8號開始開盤，開盤價格大概每百臺斤1,100元。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是二期，這個數字聽起來也是不錯的數字。"],["陳部長駿季：已經很不錯了。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以我們的政策方向是對的，雖然有些人硬要責怪你們，但事實上，最後的結果才定輸贏。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的支持。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這個政策方向是對的，應該要繼續支持。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，剛剛也有人提講到「黃小玉」進口的事情會不會衝擊到國內市場？我只想跟部長反映，事實上，本來臺灣「黃小玉」的產量就非常不足，不到一成，百分之九十幾都靠進口，但是一直大量倚賴進口，我看到的問題跟他們是完全不同的層次，就是進口的價格明明比較低，為什麼我們的飼料成本，不管是供給畜產或供給魚類的養殖，價格卻一直攀升，沒有辦法壓下來呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個就是我們現在持續在跟飼料公會討論的問題，第一，除了他們透過聯合採購可以把價格壓低一點以外，相對的，在營業稅和關稅部分，我們也持續有一些優惠措施，這些優惠我們都要求他們要回饋給農民……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是以目前的情況看來，回饋到農民的成數……因為價格真的一直在漲，部長可以去了解一下，也請漁業署關心一下，魚飼料漲了一倍，真的是有漲……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們會持續來做，針對委員剛才講到的魚飼料等特別產品，我們也會再來關注，但是近期我們也會找這些飼料公會……"],["蔡委員易餘：我講的當然是有基期的，不是短期內，我是說這幾年來飼料價格的提高，已經傷害到農民，我覺得這些生意人也有一點過分，回到剛才提到的稻穀為例，他們只看到農民的稻穀收成好，哪知道每個成果的後面，生產線上的每樣工錢都在漲價……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在就是擔心這個。"],["蔡委員易餘：對啊！肥料漲，農藥也漲，每樣都漲、漲、漲，等於又把農民的收入吃掉了，這件事情要請部長再關心一下。"],["陳部長駿季：是，謝謝委員提醒，就是產業鏈的這些東西，不能因為農民的收益提高了，什麼插秧費、整地費也要連動提高，這樣農民的收益就又被稀釋了。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！看到農作價格好，他們就跟在後面浮動……"],["陳部長駿季：這部分我們會來關注。"],["蔡委員易餘：又把農民的收益吃掉了。最後短短時間，我另外提一個問題，就是現在林業署有編一個針對外來種野生動物侵害本土的捐助預算，你看我們現在處理埃及聖䴉的效果就很好，確實讓牠數量大幅減少，另外綠鬣蜥的部分，我們也有編列補助預算，請獵人把牠移除來加以管制，都有產生效果，而我要跟部長講的是，現在山區真的有很多猴害，這些「猴齊天」真的很會繁衍，對農作的損害也非常嚴重，這些猴子很奇怪，牠們不是真的要吃農作，而是拿來玩耍，常常左手一顆橘子，右手也一顆橘子，加上兩隻腳，然後尾巴再勾一顆，但是都只咬一口就丟掉，再另外摘一顆，根本就是在戲耍，對農民來說真的很無奈，因為現在獼猴也已經不是保育類動物，也許我們該正視這個問題，替農民來解決猴害的問題。部長，是不是請你回應？"],["陳部長駿季：獼猴已經不是保育類動物，如果侵害到人民的生命財產，是可以進行撲殺的動作，只是因為獼猴本身的樣子讓人家不願意動手，不過我在這邊也不是危言聳聽，以現在的獼猴數量來看，如果我們再沒有一個更積極的防制作為，未來5年，這些獼猴不只會出現在田間，可能都會走進市區，所以我們必須一起來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，有時候是出於無奈，可是我們也要認真去想，埃及聖䴉是鳥類，長得不像人；綠鬣蜥是爬蟲類，長得也不像人，長得比較醜的，沒有人權就算了，連動物權都沒有！真的長得醜的很可憐，但對於那些人模人樣的，就說要好好保護，實在很無奈，這部分我覺得還是要站在產業發展及生態平衡的角度思考，有時候該做適度的處理時，還是要處理，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經有對外徵求意見，看有沒有比較好的防制方法，這部分可能要更加一些力道去處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：思考一下到底要怎麼做啦！我看我們在處理埃及聖䴉和綠鬣蜥的成果是有的，既然有成果，有時候我們還是應該思考如何達到適度的生態平衡。如果生態已經失控了，身為政府部門，還是要介入，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra 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國教署署長 記者司司長還有我們哪一位去承接了葉秉成次長的業務的次長 以上好 請部長跟相關的次長跟署長 司長就座 謝謝沒關係 就大家也坐了很久嘛上來辛苦站一下 謝謝委員好"},{"start":22.249,"end":47.608,"text":"首先我想先谢谢赵伟赵伟今天给予大家非常充分的时间来讨论我们大家最关心的各项教育议题其实我今天也准备了很多的资料但第一题我可能要先来呼应一下我们刚刚罗廷伟委员所提到的我们在过去升格以后我们的国立高中改立这件事情其实在地方上那时候有很多的讨论"},{"start":48.408,"end":67.73,"text":"同意的意见不同意的意见都非常的多那刚才我当然特别提醒罗廷伟委员在台中市那时候在圣歌改历的时候这个我们署长是当时教育局的局长那当时好像也颇支持的这样子但我觉得支持是一回事我们走到现在为止我觉得刚才罗廷伟委员讲得很好也就是说现在哦"},{"start":68.671,"end":83.355,"text":"我們在地方上各項的補助都減少那如果說今天國立高中變市立高中那我們還要去負擔市立高中因為得不到中央的關愛那真的不如把孩子送回來大家庭好了那部長怎麼看你會繼續愛他們嗎我講我們當然"},{"start":90.458,"end":119.468,"text":"各種計畫型 怎麼樣去協助地方這個勢力高中子的一個發展這當然教育部責無旁貸責無旁貸 因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛但別忘了那是自己的孩子否則 我請教一下台南現在那個學校國立有改為勢力了嗎有還是沒有目前還是在目前沒有嘛 從以前到現在他都不願意嘛不願意的原因是什麼"},{"start":121.164,"end":143.929,"text":"四个字财政负担就这样子对不对那所以呢台南他到现在都不愿意都还在考量那如果说其他升格的各个直辖市刚刚其实署长都漏掉了讲我们桃园了那我觉得我们大家现在就是尽量给我们的这些过去的国立高中现在市立高中要给他很多的支持但我希望那个大家长您这个部长别忘了还有他们好"},{"start":144.509,"end":170.005,"text":"接下來我們來討論這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137億我們看到115年教育部主管的預算2659億如果再加上我們這個一般性補助款813億總共是3472億比較去年少了79億其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億來"},{"start":172.927,"end":196.057,"text":"这个署长你的预算高达了137.5亿的减链原因是什么有三个第一个是2到6岁第二个是有些已经完工的像当时的青浦地区竹北地区那个8亿另外有一些是因为在财政的这个负担上有一些调节第三个部分再说清楚"},{"start":197.108,"end":224.897,"text":"譬如說在1.65的這個原額上那麼在103年上這個政策當時已經過了11年已經達成了那這個可能可以減編第二個 像輔導人這個當時的教師數在正諸於11年後的教師數它並且已經提高了之後呢已經不太需要那筆錢那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的時間已經走了11年第二個是輔導人力的部分"},{"start":225.777,"end":246.053,"text":"地方已经增加了4165亿那相关的这个资源做一点调节以上三点做补充好 署长本席比较能接受的是你说如果我们过去有编列是因为现在工程完工了都竣工了那我们当然就不需要再编那就会看到简列的数字在这上面但您刚刚所说的我们看到自己教育部简报在第六页的部分"},{"start":247.454,"end":259.36,"text":"这也是刚才书长提到的什么补助国小教育运河编制啊每班1.65我们已经完成了不需要了然后是什么辅导人力我们不需要了什么这些不需要到底是谁告诉你已经不需要了"},{"start":260.345,"end":286.596,"text":"什麼叫做不需要 叫做不需要那叫做什麼 它是在那個時間已經完成了之後它是因為地方裁員也增加了所以地方裁員增加 那請教一下署長地方裁員 你怎麼知道地方裁員增加了委員 地方裁員增加是4160億以相關的縣市 你說地方裁員增加在哪裡你告訴我 怎麼增加 來你告訴我對 像台北市增加400多億 桃園市增加295億"},{"start":287.836,"end":308.367,"text":"好 我們增加這290幾億我就以本席的桃園市來講難道全部增加的就是指定在教育運算上嗎那我必須要講說今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋蛋生雞來講回來我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總諮詢一樣我們跟中央中央政府地方政府不要對抗"},{"start":309.207,"end":327.803,"text":"要合作 對不對一個財化法它有基本的利益在就像之前賴靜澤在當這個市長的時候他也是說財化法要重新修法呀 是不是那重新修法為什麼難道就是因為我們增加了所以今天要砍什麼全部拿來砍教育的預算這樣有對嗎來 部長我請教你一下"},{"start":331.256,"end":360.135,"text":"刚才以上我们讲到的我们刚才以上讲到的不管是我们的高中以下学校的用电刚刚辅导人力什么的这些部长你应该知道这些每一个都是很重要对不对好那你今天要讲说你们这个才化法每个县市都有增加预算增加的预算我们地方政府也会涉算涉算了以后就会想说我还要怎么样帮桃园市做更多重大建设什么地方还需要钱结果呢你反而把教育的预算都给空掉了"},{"start":360.895,"end":387.723,"text":"欸 部長啊 你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算啊今天是行政院要你撿就撿嘛來 部長我請教你一個問題你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢對不起我這是立法院的一個我說你在教育部 你的座椅一張多少錢我沒有 我進來就是原用舊的我沒有買過沒有買過 想不想換一張五萬塊的不用 不用 為什麼"},{"start":388.325,"end":404.23,"text":"因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐我主要是來做事情跟委員一樣希望一起為台灣的教育打拚我不是來來做不是來享受的嘛很棒我就欣賞你這一些話要告訴國防部啊"},{"start":407.13,"end":435.91,"text":"買個椅子 什麼一張五萬塊 喝瓶水什麼水不能喝 一瓶水一百二當然他有一些他的說法在但我今天要講的是 教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題教育的預算我們要投入大量去栽培我們的孩子 去支持我們的老師但你今天啊 讓他三你就三 讓他減你就減 這樣怎麼會對啊你要支持的去捍衛你自己的預算啊不是今天行政院告訴你說 要塞哪裡你就同意塞哪裡 這本性不能接受啊 好不好"},{"start":436.63,"end":461.468,"text":"然後再來呢 我想我跟委員一樣我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作你要捍衛預算啦如果呢 你都不知道要去捍衛預算喔這樣到六歲原來編688億我們中央還是一樣部長啊 部長 部長如果我們這樣提醒你說你要適當的 適時的 堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算不是只有到委員會來才來跟我們這邊這樣說 那樣說你看我們所有委員會的委員"},{"start":466.431,"end":485.801,"text":"不分這個黨派我們都很支持你的預算對不對但是你今天少了這個部分你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來了再來我們來看到我們這些計畫現在改成地方負擔加總起來總共少的是149.31億對嗎 國教署是的 那包含有新增的部分我們往下看"},{"start":494.483,"end":514.64,"text":"刚才的资料是国教署这边来教育部这边来这边也是你这边写上来这个我们简列是146.28亿为什么一样都是你送上来的资料为什么一样都是你送上来的资料却有149.3亿跟146.28亿的差别那这个相差3亿多这个数字为什么"},{"start":516.616,"end":532.419,"text":"為什麼跟委員報告就是現在委員投影片放的這13他是只有對地方政府的補助款我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊前面上一張的話是整個國教署的預算是整個國教署補助和非補助都有"},{"start":532.739,"end":559.899,"text":"那我們看到第一個我覺得這個數字上面我覺得也不夠明確第二個呢所以你所有的簡列你看通通都是簡列我們地方嘛全部都是簡列地方嘛我覺得這是不對的你今天呢我們的孩子我們的老師你不要再去分這些什麼中央地方你能夠做的你就應該都要做所以我還是回去到那句老話其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的好接下來呢我就要再問到了你看"},{"start":560.459,"end":579.207,"text":"我们现在我不知道这个部长因为昨天我在这个总咨询的时候也有提到这个财务法我们现在大概有1700多亿吧如果这个数字我没有记错的话大概有1000多亿那这个预算其实就是改成计划型的一个补助"},{"start":579.907,"end":602.481,"text":"大概有1764億喔這個一半型補助喔 我們變成計劃型補助其中啊 這1764億裡面國教署就佔了813億國教署就佔掉一半了齁也就是說 未來啊未來我們縣市啊如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候我們都改成計劃型 都改成要申請那我請教一下 部長審核是誰在審核誰審核審核的機制是什麼給予的標準是什麼"},{"start":610.179,"end":628.611,"text":"各位報告剛剛那個計劃型他原來就存在著甚至減掉了一些嘛所以計劃型原來怎麼審我們也那樣審而且要簡化有些會簡化更從地方的角度看包含部長剛剛最近也在說希望同一份資料各個單位可以用不要每個單位都跟學校"},{"start":629.011,"end":654.375,"text":"跟縣市要資料好 減量嘛我希望你這個810多億的補助款你給我一個你到底所謂的簡化還有審核的標準是什麼第一個第二個能不能做到每年年底的時候把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的那給我一張表可以嗎哪個縣市哪幾個學校什麼樣的項目得到你們一般型的補助都可以做到嗎"},{"start":656.918,"end":680.309,"text":"一般性補助跟教育的計劃性補助這兩項一般性補助比較我們會採取涉算式的計劃大概像委員講的會有審查委員希望我們年底前給委員做這樣一個中整的說明報告我們會來進行 謝謝我跟你講署長這是為你好啊不要大家都覺得你有時候大小眼要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分要不然人家覺得有黑箱你不會嘛 對不對你絕對不會嘛"},{"start":683.044,"end":690.078,"text":"所以我給你一個機會啊就公開給大家看一下 好不好接下來呢我們再來談一下新武專計畫"},{"start":694.502,"end":713.798,"text":"這個新武專計劃我們114年開始試辦3加2這個是本席沒有記錯是葉秉成次長提出來的那在當時在委員會不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候我們經過非常充分的討論那這個計劃最後共有38所學校174班來申辦所以部長這個計劃好不好你覺得好還是不好 給我一個字就好基本上我覺得 我肯定他的價值"},{"start":722.307,"end":748.86,"text":"所以是好的對不對我也覺得計畫不錯所以我們才會支持運算但是我們看到現在的招生情況我舉一個最指標的學校台科大自動化工程專班那他跟我們都是很指標性的這個像台北市大安高工新竹高工台中高工這三所學校合作那原本我們預計要招收60人結果只招收到21人其中新竹高工還是掛零"},{"start":750.054,"end":756.851,"text":"成效不好啊本席也下去了解跟问过啊其实成效是不好的啊所以呢为什么成效这么差部长说明一下好吗"},{"start":760.479,"end":785.959,"text":"我补充说明因为这样的一个三加二的专班主要是提供技高学生有一个多元的选择背景不用再说了我们去年讨论很多了就以台科大这个案子来讲新竹高工的这一个班并没有办法人数来参加主要是新竹高工的学生大部分都是要升学所以他们对于先拿一个二专"},{"start":786.659,"end":808.035,"text":"的文凭学生是有疑虑的所以新竹高工的学生就不参加了市长谢谢部长您刚刚有听到市长的专业说明了这个其实也是那时候我们在审查预算的时候我们提出来的担忧结果它就是发生了它就发生了我们如此教育文化委员会如此支持你们的预算但你们交出来的成果我真的觉得"},{"start":809.296,"end":834.586,"text":"非常让大家看不下去那再来呢我想另外在招收学生不足的情况之下即便我们这个计划有补助给该校但是呢现在我了解到有很多要衔接的科大都担心他可能不付成本甚至会赔本搞不好就不想再做了请问一下如果在他招收不到学生的时候他可以擅自终止这样的计划吗"},{"start":837.372,"end":850.349,"text":"因為假如學生已經參加不可以這個我們會來跟學校做說明啦對 這個是不可以的那如果不可以 那課大又賠本那個市長你要怎麼處理我們來協助學校怎麼協助"},{"start":852.332,"end":881.531,"text":"我们有一些经费例如说我们的高教生跟计划所以你还拿别的计划来协助这个计划那个教学的开课的成本本来在相关计划都可以支我当然知道都可以支那个师长当然可以指引但是当初这次教育部提了一个新的计划你就应该在这个新的计划那委员会同意你的预算当中去把它做好来但显然没有还用别的计划来指引那当时我们所提醒你的一些问题现在都产生了所以我想"},{"start":882.472,"end":903.265,"text":"叶秉成次长提出这样的一个计划现在当然他不在这里了这个计划看起来出了很多问题了谁能够处理我希望这个接的新的次长还是司长们我就要把这个计划重新再审视一次好不好那利益良善但是如果只是浪费公帑那没有什么效果这我不能接受最后一点非常简单这照理一分钟就好"},{"start":904.245,"end":915.872,"text":"我們當時預算通過的時候也有在講我們要求要比照像以前12年國教一樣12年國教輔導團要去宣導大家才會知道但是呢看起來我們並沒有認真做到這件事"},{"start":919.825,"end":941.754,"text":"根文報告您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個所以我們從一四的一月在做核心講師的培訓針對新五專的這一個核心講師也都培訓完了那在實體的宣導部分高中以下的階段在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了"},{"start":942.774,"end":961.903,"text":"然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做計值宣導也把3加2加進來我們的計專階段我跟你說啦你講的那些啊我覺得不要說什麼我印了這個什麼手冊然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做你去看一下12年國家上路的時候全國在宣導那個強度是什麼輔導團的強度是什麼"},{"start":964.184,"end":985.644,"text":"我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人怎麼去做的去學一下 去比照一下新的政策出來不是當初代理的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了要不然就是敷衍一下那沒意思啦當初我們就講過了你一下5加0 2加3 1加4亂七八糟一大堆大家不撒撒就要去宣導你沒有認真做我覺得這樣子的政策啊真的很可惜喔"},{"start":986.044,"end":1013.813,"text":"所以呢會後我希望你提供給我們詳細的資料那如果還沒有做的我們趕快把它補上來否則我覺得我們今年的預算上面我們可能不會支持了好我補充一下今年在計專端會辦理62場次所以委員這個我們都已經有規劃市長因為我今天給你調資料你資料也是亂七八糟你們的人也是都不清不楚所以呢我拜託會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚因為本席覺得這個非常非常的重要可以嗎可以好謝謝"},{"start":1016.047,"end":1017.531,"text":"謝謝委員提醒也感謝委員知道 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時2分）謝謝召委，我們有請部長、國教署署長、技職司司長，還有承接葉丙成次長業務的次長，以上。"],["主席：請部長和相關的次長、署長、司長就位，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係，大家也坐了很久，上來辛苦站一下，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：好。首先，我想先謝謝召委，召委今天給予大家非常充分的時間來討論我們大家最關心的各項教育議題，其實我今天也準備了很多的資料，但第一題我可能要先來呼應一下剛剛羅廷瑋委員所提到的。","在過去升格以後，我們的國立高中改隸這件事情其實在地方上已經有很多的討論，同意的意見、不同意的意見都非常的多。剛才我當然也特別提醒羅廷瑋委員，在臺中市升格改隸的時候，署長是當時的教育局局長，當時好像也頗支持的，但我覺得支持是一回事，我們走到現在為止，我覺得剛才羅廷瑋委員講得很好，也就是現在我們在地方上的各項補助都減少。如果今天國立高中變市立高中，地方還要去負擔市立高中，因為他得不到中央的關愛，真的不如把孩子送回來這個大家庭好了，部長怎麼看？你會繼續愛他們嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想各種計畫型怎麼樣去協助地方市立高中職的發展，當然教育部責無旁貸。"],["萬委員美玲：責無旁貸喔！因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的，現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛，但別忘了他是自己的孩子，否則我請教一下，臺南現在國立學校有改為市立了嗎？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前還是在討論中……"],["萬委員美玲：目前沒有，從以前到現在，他都不願意嘛！不願意的原因是什麼？四個字，財政負擔，就這樣子，對不對？所以臺南到現在都不願意，都還有這個考量。其他升格的直轄市，剛剛其實署長漏掉講我們桃園，我覺得我們現在就是要儘量給這些過去的國立高中現在的市立高中很多的支持，但我希望大家長（部長）別忘了，還有他們。","接下來我們來討論，這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137.5億，115年教育部主管的預算是2,659億，如果再加上一般性補助款813億，總共是3,472億，較去年少了79億，其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億。署長，你的預算高達137.5億的減列，原因是什麼？"],["彭署長富源：有三個：第一個是2到6歲的部分；第二個是有些已經完工的，像當時青埔地區、竹北地區的8億；另外有一些是因為在財政負擔上有一些調節。以上補充。"],["萬委員美玲：第三個部分再說清楚。"],["彭署長富源：譬如在1.65的這個員額上，當時103年的這個政策已經過了11年，已經達成了，這個可能可以減編，當時的教師數相較於11年後的教師數，它已經提高了之後，已經不太需要那筆錢，並且那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的，時間已經走了11年。第二個是輔導人力的部分，地方已經增加了4,165億，相關的這個資源做一點調節。以上三點補充。"],["萬委員美玲：好，署長，本席比較能接受的是，你說我們過去有編列，因為現在工程完工了、都竣工了，我們當然就不需要再編，就會看到減列的數字在這上面。但您剛剛所說的，我們看到，其實教育部自己的簡報在第6頁的部分，這也是剛才署長提到的，補助國小教師員額編制至每班1.65師，我們已經完成了，不需要了，還有輔導人力，我們不需要了，這些不需要到底是誰告訴你已經不需要了？什麼叫做不需要？"],["彭署長富源：它不叫做不需要……"],["萬委員美玲：那叫做什麼？"],["彭署長富源：它是在那個時間已經完成了之後，因為地方財源也增加了，所以大家在分擔上……"],["萬委員美玲：地方財源增加，請教一下署長……"],["彭署長富源：大家在分擔上回到法律……"],["萬委員美玲：你怎麼知道地方財源增加了？"],["彭署長富源：委員，地方財源增加就是4,165億，以相關的縣市……"],["萬委員美玲：你說地方財源增加在哪裡？你告訴我，怎麼增加？你告訴我。"],["彭署長富源：像臺北市增加四百多億，桃園市增加295億。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我就以本席的桃園市來講，我們增加這兩百九十幾億，難道全部增加的就是指定在教育預算上嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：我必須要講，今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋、蛋生雞講回來，我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總質詢講的一樣，中央政府跟地方政府不要對抗，要合作，對不對？財劃法有基本的利益在，就像之前賴清德在當市長的時候，他也是說財劃法要重新修法，是不是？重新修法為什麼？難道就是因為地方增加了，所以今天要砍，全部拿來砍教育的預算，這樣有對嗎？這樣有對嗎？部長，我請教你一下……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：我們剛才以上講到的，不管是高中以下學校的用電或是輔導人力的這些，部長，你應該知道每一個都是很重要，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那你今天又要講依照財劃法，每個縣市都有增加預算，增加的預算地方政府也會設算，設算了以後就會想還要怎麼樣幫桃園市做更多重大建設、什麼地方還需要錢，結果你反而把教育的預算都給扣掉了。部長，你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算？今天是行政院要你減你就減嗎？部長，我請教你一個問題，你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，這是立法院的……"],["萬委員美玲：我說你在教育部的，你的坐椅一張多少錢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我進來就是沿用舊的，我沒有買過任何椅子。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有買過，想不想換一張5萬塊的？"],["鄭部長英耀：不用。"],["萬委員美玲：不用，為什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐，我主要是來做事情，跟委員一樣，希望一起為臺灣的教育打拚，我不是來做……"],["萬委員美玲：不是來享受的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是、是、是。"],["萬委員美玲：很棒！我就欣賞你，這一些話要告訴國防部。買個椅子，什麼一張5萬塊！喝瓶水，什麼水不能喝？一瓶水120！當然他有一些他的說法在，但我今天要講的是教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題，我們要投入大量教育的預算去栽培我們的孩子、去支持我們的老師。但你今天他讓你刪你就刪、他讓你減你就減，這樣怎麼會對？你要去支持、捍衛你自己的預算，不是今天行政院告訴你要刪哪裡，你就同意刪哪裡，這個本席不能接受，好不好？再來……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我跟委員一樣，我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作……"],["萬委員美玲：你要捍衛預算，如果你都不知道要去捍衛預算……"],["鄭部長英耀：就像0到6歲的部分原來編688億，我們中央還是一樣，國教署還編了600億……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我們這樣提醒你，你要適當的、適時的、堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算，不是只有到了委員會才來跟我們這樣說、那樣說。你看，我們所有委員會的委員不分黨派，我們都很支持你的預算，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我的心情和態度跟委員是一致的。"],["萬委員美玲：但是你今天少了這個部分，你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，我們看到這些計畫現在改成地方負擔，加總起來總共少了149.31億，對嗎？國教署。"],["彭署長富源：是的，當然也有新增的部分。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們往下看。剛才的資料是從國教署這邊來，從教育部這邊來，這邊也是，你這邊寫上來的減列是146.28億，為什麼一樣都是你送上來的資料，卻有149.31億跟146.28億的差別？相差三億多，這個數字為什麼？"],["劉處長嘉偉：跟委員報告，現在委員投影片放的「十三」，它是只有對地方政府的補助款。"],["萬委員美玲：我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊！"],["劉處長嘉偉：對，那上一張是整個國教署的預算。"],["萬委員美玲：是整個國教署。"],["劉處長嘉偉：就是補助和非補助的都有。"],["萬委員美玲：好，第一個，我覺得這個數字上面也不夠明確。第二個，哇！所以你所有的減列統統都是減列我們地方，全部都是減列地方嘛！我覺得這是不對的，今天我們的孩子、我們的老師，你不要再去分什麼中央、地方，你能夠做的你就應該都要做，所以我還是回到那句老話，其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的。","接下來我要再問到，因為昨天我在總質詢的時候也有提到財劃法，我們現在大概有一千七百多億吧！如果這個數字我沒有記錯的話，這個預算其實就是改成計畫型的補助，大概有1,764億，一般性補助變成計畫型補助。這1,764億裡面，國教署就占了813億，國教署就占掉一半，也就是說，未來我們縣市如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候，我們都改成計畫型，都改成要申請，我請教一下部長，審核是誰在審核？誰審核？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們有……"],["萬委員美玲：審核的機制是什麼？給予的標準是什麼？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，剛剛那個計畫型它原來就存在著，甚至減掉了一些，所以計畫型原來怎麼審，我們也那樣審，而且要簡化，有些會簡化，更從地方的角度看。包含部長最近也在說，希望同一份資料各個單位可以用，不要每個單位都跟學校、跟縣市要資料，大概這樣子。"],["萬委員美玲：減量嘛！是不是？好，我希望你這個八百一十多億的補助款，你給我你所謂的簡化，還有審核的標準是什麼，這是第一個。","第二個，能不能做到每年年底的時候，把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的，給我們一張表，可以嗎？哪個縣市、哪幾個學校、什麼樣的項目得到你們一般性的補助，這可以做到嗎？"],["彭署長富源：包含一般性補助跟教育部的計畫型補助這兩項，一般性補助我們會採取設算式的，計畫型的大概像委員講的會有審查。委員希望我們年底前給委員做一個綜整的說明報告，我們會來進行，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：我跟你講，署長，這是為你好啊！不然大家都覺得你有時候大小眼，要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分，對不對？要不然人家覺得有黑箱，你不會嘛！對不對？你絕對不會嘛！所以我給你一個機會，就公開給大家看一下，好不好？","接下來我們再來談一下新五專計畫，這個新五專計畫114年開始試辦，3加2，本席沒有記錯的話，這個是葉丙成次長提出來的。當時在委員會，不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候，我們經過非常充分的討論，這個計畫最後共有38所學校174班來申辦，所以部長，這個計畫好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們看……"],["萬委員美玲：你覺得好還是不好？給我一個字就好。"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上我覺得我肯定它的價值。"],["萬委員美玲：所以是好的，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我也覺得計畫不錯，所以我們才會支持預算。但是我們看到現在的招生情況，我舉一個最指標的學校──臺科大自動化工程專班，它跟一些指標性的學校，像臺北市的大安高工、新竹高工、臺中高工這3所學校合作，原本預計要招收60人，結果只招收到21人，其中新竹高工還是掛零，成效不好啊！本席也下去瞭解跟問過，其實成效是不好的，為什麼成效這麼差？部長說明一下好嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：委員，我補充說明。因為這樣一個3加2的專班，主要是提供技高學生有一個多元的選擇。"],["萬委員美玲：背景不用再說，我們去年討論很多了。"],["楊司長玉惠：就以臺科大這個案子來講，新竹高工的這一個班沒有辦法有人數來參加，主要是新竹高工的學生大部分都是要升學，對於先拿一個二專的文憑學生是有疑慮的，所以新竹高工的學生就不參加了。"],["萬委員美玲：好，司長謝謝。部長，您剛剛有聽到司長的專業說明了，這個其實也是那時候我們在審查預算所提出來的擔憂，結果它就是發生了啊！我們教育及文化委員會如此支持你們的預算，但你們交出來的成果，我真的覺得讓大家非常看不下去。","再來，在招收學生不足的情況之下，即便這個計畫有補助給該校，但是現在我瞭解到有很多要銜接的科大都擔心可能不敷成本，甚至會賠本，搞不好就不想再做了。請問一下，如果在它招收不到學生的時候，它可以擅自中止這樣的計畫嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：假如學生已經參加……"],["萬委員美玲：司長，可以嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：不可以。"],["萬委員美玲：不可以嘛！對不對？"],["楊司長玉惠：對，我們會跟學校說明，這個是不可以的，學生已經……"],["萬委員美玲：如果不可以，那科大又賠本，司長，你要怎麼處理？"],["楊司長玉惠：我們來協助學校，這個沒有問題。"],["萬委員美玲：怎麼協助？"],["楊司長玉惠：我們有一些經費，例如說高教深耕計畫的經費裡面……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你還要拿別的計畫來協助這個計畫？"],["楊司長玉惠：沒有，那個教學的、開課的成本，本來在相關計畫都可以支。我們114沒有編……"],["萬委員美玲：我當然知道都可以支。"],["楊司長玉惠：我們114沒有編。"],["萬委員美玲：司長，當然都可以支應，但是當初這是教育部提的一個新的計畫，你就應該在這個新的計畫當中，用委員會同意你的預算去把它做好，但顯然沒有，還要用別的計畫來支應，當時我們提醒你的一些問題現在都產生了。葉丙成次長提出這樣一個計畫，現在當然他不在這裡了，這個計畫看起來出很多問題了，誰能夠處理？我希望新接任的次長，還是司長們，我覺得要把這個計畫重新再審視一次，好不好？"],["楊司長玉惠：好，會。"],["萬委員美玲：立意良善，但是如果只是浪費公帑，沒有什麼效果，這個我不能接受。"],["楊司長玉惠：是。"],["萬委員美玲：最後一點，非常簡單，召委，1分鐘就好。當時預算通過的時候我們也有在講，要求要比照像以前的12年國教一樣，輔導團要去宣導12年國教，大家才會知道，但是看起來你們並沒有認真做到這件事。"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告，您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個，所以我們從114的1月在做核心講師的培訓，針對新五專的部分，核心講師也都培訓完了。在實體的宣導部分，高中以下的階段，在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了，然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做技職宣導，也把3加2加進來。在我們的技專階段……"],["萬委員美玲：司長，我跟你說啦！你講的那一些，我覺得不要說你印了一個什麼手冊，然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做有做了，你去看一下12年國教要上路的時候，全國在宣導的那個強度是什麼？輔導團的強度是什麼？我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人？怎麼去做的？去學一下，去比照一下。","新的政策出來，不是當初帶領的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了，要不然就是敷衍一下，那沒意思啦！當初我們就講過了，你一下5加0、2加3、1加4，亂七八糟一大堆，大家「霧煞煞」，叫你去宣導你沒有認真做，我覺得這樣子的政策真的很可惜，所以會後我希望你提供我們詳細的資料，如果還沒有做的你們趕快把它補上來，否則我覺得在今年的預算上面，我們可能不會支持了。"],["楊司長玉惠：我補充一下，今年在技專端會辦理62場次，所以這個我們都已經有規劃進來。"],["萬委員美玲：司長，我今天跟你調資料，你的資料也是亂七八糟，你們的人也是都不清不楚，所以我拜託，會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚，因為本席覺得這個非常非常地重要，可以嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：可以。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，也感謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，行政官員請回座。","我們現在休息10分鐘，等一下在11點30分之前大家入座，謝謝。","休息（11時19分）","繼續開會（11時29分）"],["主席：我們繼續質詢，現在請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}