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處理媒體涉及龐大的商業利益更攸關台灣民主的成熟或者是台灣目前正媒集團的墮落"},{"start":51.94,"end":79.61,"text":"所以接下來的問題可能蔣老師既然已經被提名了你在你的著作當中你也很誠實的說不管是電信還是媒體相關的事情你從來沒有做過任何的研究也沒有相關的任何的研究計畫那為什麼提名您出任NCC的主委過去大概都是媒體或者是電信那突然找蔣老師來當主任委員我擔心你是誤入叢林的小白兔"},{"start":80.69,"end":100.882,"text":"在這個過程當中讓自己可能遇到一些沒有辦法預期的狀況但這是人事同意權的審查我們對NCC委員非常的嚴肅接下來就請江老師直接針對問題回答第一個 你什麼時候同意出任NCC委員的"},{"start":102.295,"end":124.488,"text":"好的 剛才 謝謝委員第一個 你什麼時候同意出任NCC委員好 第一次呢 卓院長5月5日的時候有邀請我是 什麼時候點頭的那一次呢 我答應回去就去思考是所以兩個星期之後呢 那時候呢所以大概520就同意了嘛應該是之後因為我今天一定要追出來啊當初卓榮泰跳票"},{"start":126.031,"end":151.108,"text":"5月底以前NCC的名單要送到立法院一拖再拖他說裡面因為有人有生涯的考慮要配合他我聽不懂啦中華民國這麼重要的政府職位到底要因為哪一個人的生涯考慮拖到8月30號才送來結果我看8月底送來的資料明明5月的時候就整理好啦"},{"start":152.27,"end":171.599,"text":"5月整理好遲遲不送來拖到8月底是裡面真的有人說我有生涯考慮大家等我還是要等到大罷免大落賽了以後知道不能再拖了才送來第二個過去有NCC的主委竟然有業者"},{"start":172.918,"end":191.154,"text":"在民進黨秘書長洪耀福的帶領下直接找主委出來說這個禁電視的執照要拜託出來喬來 請問一下蔣老師未來如果有民進黨的秘書長去關說 說特定電視台的執照要給他過這個面你會這個面你會見還是不會見"},{"start":200.173,"end":222.528,"text":"會還是不會 現在我沒有要把以前的事情歸咎在你身上陳耀祥做的是陳耀祥自己負擔洪耀福做的是洪耀福自己負擔但我要一個基本的態度 當初問陳耀祥的時候他負無藥無菌 人家只是來關心啊表達關切啊為什麼這個電視台的執照還沒有發啊"},{"start":227.443,"end":249.028,"text":"相同的情況發生在你身上你會接受這種關說嗎來請教江老師好的委員謝謝您的提問非常簡單的答案剛才我前面就已經說得很清楚了我有機會上任的話我會和執政黨與反對黨保持政治上的等距也就是說非常的清楚"},{"start":249.848,"end":272.855,"text":"政治上我老師說啦老師講的話非常政治正確但是其實老師只要講一句話秉持我的專業跟獨立依法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦這樣就好了好 那我馬上來進行第一個 蔣老師可能過去對於新聞傳播比較沒涉獵我強烈推薦你林立雲跟王維京這兩個絕對不是藍的啦"},{"start":276.377,"end":288.195,"text":"這兩個也不是白的啦這兩個都是綠底的啦我跟這兩個老師很熟啊所以我說他們綠底他們不會他們不會介意啊綠營出身的傳播學者在講什麼"},{"start":289.318,"end":313.324,"text":"台灣政媒共生集團透過政治與媒體影響力藉由土地開發謀利也介入政治甚至政府領域包括人事個案與政策讓媒體成為政治部門的輿論宣傳工具不公正的新聞報導及節目導致台灣新聞頻道的社會信任度長期居於世界排名倒數為台灣民主的另外一個危機"},{"start":314.404,"end":324.524,"text":"這不是我說的這是林立雲跟王維京兩位我尊敬的媒體界的前輩也是前NCC委員講的主委看到這樣的聲明你認不認同"},{"start":326.462,"end":345.014,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問那已經卸任的委員他發表這樣的聲明那他應該是有他自己的說話的權利我個人覺得台灣的媒體將來能夠做得更好或變成一個很好的產業的話其實除了說服國人"},{"start":345.934,"end":372.391,"text":"能夠將自律的 我看喔對啦 我也希望但在現在的環境當中我是很悲哀我直接用一個具體的主席站起來了我最後只用一分鐘用一個具體的例子給被提名的人看一看就是當初有民進黨撐腰違法取得執照的靜電視前兩天說我什麼說我用假對話截圖蒙騙社會"},{"start":374.844,"end":399.656,"text":"我黃國昌問政 從來沒有人敢說我拿出造假的資料孰可忍 孰不可忍啦我馬上要求說明澄清結果呢 結果出事發訊給我的人他的律師給我喊 證實我出的函全部都是真的那代表了什麼 代表了進電視在做假新聞"},{"start":400.908,"end":421.64,"text":"我要求他們公開道歉他們也沒公開道歉到目前為止裝死當中啊裝死當中啊指著我的鼻子說我造假人家發的律師函說我都是真的我要他道歉啊他不道歉沒有關係我不是問你態度立場我要考你法規啊依照現行的法律這樣的行為"},{"start":423.41,"end":431.077,"text":"依照現行的法律 NCC主管的法律不要講民法或刑法依照NCC主管的法律有哪一個條文在規範這樣的行為"},{"start":433.131,"end":451.767,"text":"好的 沒有確實NCC是保障人民的知情權那也就是說那些聽起來不喜歡的或者不舒服的不好意思喔我現在在問的是哪一條法律規範這樣的行為沒有有來所以我就跟你說你作為主委的被提名人要多熟悉自己未來要主管的法規衛星廣播電視法第27條"},{"start":455.049,"end":478.146,"text":"第53條的規定規範的很清楚啊除了發環最終還可以停止該節目或廣告採取必要的更正措施江老師不是來自這個專業領域啊未廣法不熟我們大家願意給你時間跟空間但是怎麼取得社會跟國會的信任說江老師有這樣子的專業來擔任主委是接下來比較大的挑戰好謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"164363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bc7e2b64df1d2516b2e2f7db73b8fc9c783c966d97180d5d2eebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:44:02 - 09:51:40","影片長度":"00:07:38","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.蔣被提名人榮先-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-20","start_time":"2025-10-20T09:44:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T09:51:40+08:00","duration":458,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.69284375,"end":4.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.67096875,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.05409375,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.52096875,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.405968750000003,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.992218750000006,"end":32.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.80221875,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.337218750000005,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.97409375,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.07096875,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.03221875,"end":77.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.47034375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":86.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.98784375000001,"end":113.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.28721875000001,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.61534375000001,"end":122.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.01596875000001,"end":124.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.91846875,"end":145.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.53971875000002,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.04159375,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.99034375000002,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.69034375,"end":155.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.92221875,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.95159375,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.45721875,"end":162.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.63846875000002,"end":165.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.82784375,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.86971875,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.68346875,"end":173.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.94471875000002,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.71596875,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.14159375,"end":183.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":189.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.92534375000002,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.08534375000002,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.91221875000002,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.82346875000002,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.11846875,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.11409375000002,"end":197.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.99159375000002,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.84784375,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.34971875000002,"end":203.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.98221875000002,"end":207.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.30221875,"end":208.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.19659375,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.56659375,"end":228.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.24409375000002,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.86096875,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.57346875000002,"end":257.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.15096875,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.18034375,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.70284375,"end":266.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.19596875,"end":273.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.09784375000004,"end":274.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.00909375000003,"end":278.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.09284375000004,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.26534375,"end":288.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.44159375000004,"end":301.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.25784375,"end":303.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.05096875000004,"end":307.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.08409375,"end":313.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.78784375000004,"end":315.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.82971875000004,"end":318.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.68159375000005,"end":319.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.62659375000004,"end":324.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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蔣榮軒先生您好最近我們就直接來問相關的NCC的業務那最近台北車站發生相關的性侵的事件那當然"},{"start":40.051,"end":63.325,"text":"媒體在報導相關的性侵害性騷擾甚至是兒童兒少的保護事件的時候他必須還是要遵守相關的法令就是我們看到性侵害犯罪防治法的第13條第1項以及性騷擾防治法"},{"start":63.965,"end":85.516,"text":"以及相關的兒童及兒少的福利法他們都有兩個基本的原則第一個原則就是不得揭露相關當事人的或者是足以辨識當事人被害人的身份這是一個重要的原則第二個是要保障"},{"start":87.057,"end":112.925,"text":"保護被害人的隱私這是兩個主要的原則但是我們在這一次看到相關的報導過程裡面很遺憾的還是有部分的媒體他的隱蔽其實是非常的粗糙這個沒有辦法去做到能夠明顯的這樣的一個保障被害人的隱私以及破壞了這種不得"},{"start":115.56,"end":123.959,"text":"可以辨識被害人身份的這樣的一個基本的一個限制跟保障那我現在要請教"},{"start":126.21,"end":145.205,"text":"蔣先生這個被提名人我們對於這樣的報導的過程這樣粗糙的隱蔽沒有辦法去保障被害人的身份不得已被辨識的這樣一個重要的原則如何保護被害人的隱私這樣的一個基本的原則來請你說明一下"},{"start":146.901,"end":164.578,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我也確實有當看到這個新聞的時候自己覺得非常的難過確實我們的新聞媒體還有它的專業性它在報導的時候其實因為本身NCC並不做新聞的內容審查"},{"start":165.919,"end":179.066,"text":"所以呢新聞的素材它是不是能夠清楚的能夠針對保護兒少的議題或者甚至於弱勢的這樣的議題能夠針對這樣的議題做更好的這樣子的保護應該是會更好的"},{"start":179.778,"end":203.233,"text":"那當然就是這件事情的事後呢就我所知道應該是國鐵公司呢還有將這樣的資料呢或者就做一些遮蔽那當然如果說是一個合理的一個做法的話我相信當不管是報案人或者是受害者他們都不希望這樣的事情發生"},{"start":204.413,"end":216.438,"text":"媒體在這件事情報導的過程當中不適當的使用這些影音這些甚至於資料其實確實是不適合的謝謝"},{"start":217.625,"end":242.381,"text":"好當然我們都要尊重新聞媒體的報導的自由以及言論的自由但是類似這樣的一個事件其實社會以及法令都有基本的而且是很嚴肅的原則這兩個原則不管是不得揭露主語辨識被害人身份以及保護被害人隱私這樣的重要原則是必須要堅持那現在因為NCC"},{"start":243.061,"end":256.875,"text":"的委員人數不足 當然在做行政處置的時候當然會陷入相關的困境 如果人數不足這樣的狀況繼續發生 那相關的NCC會做怎樣的一個處理 來 您說明一下"},{"start":258.268,"end":277.368,"text":"是現在目前的NCC由於委員人數不足所以成立這個資訊委員會那對於重大的案件呢現在目前暫時是做擱置做列管的動作那當NCC重新如果有機會再順利啟動的話我們的委員會呢就會"},{"start":282.355,"end":300.407,"text":"就如同NCC組織法所列的那會詳細的把所有的這些案件都逐一的考量好 我的重點是如果委員會NCC的委員人數仍然不足來作為相關的行政處置的時候你認為NCC要遵循怎樣的處理方式來處理呢"},{"start":304.171,"end":323.962,"text":"NCC的基本的核心理念其實是保障通訊傳播這所有是這個市場的公平以及監理的工作那目前NCC內部的研議他們在依法確實是無法去實行委員會但是他仍然有相關的不同的"},{"start":325.202,"end":351.939,"text":"處是會針對不同的問題去做處理所以呢像這些類似的問題也許不需要進到委員會去做大方向的決定好另外你有做基本的回覆啦那我再進步來跟就教育被提名人你有提到你認同新聞媒體善用AI是屬於高影響力的這樣一個領域那"},{"start":353.237,"end":372.526,"text":"他的核心理念當然就是要真實透明隱私跟避免偏見要制定相關的這樣的一個指引相關的法規人才的補助相關的透明報告等等那其實我們看到現在台灣還沒有建制這一種"},{"start":373.746,"end":400.451,"text":"具有法律强制力的AI内容的标示或者是相关的审核制度其实我们看到有很多的这样的一个媒体其实已经在使用AI的撰稿AI的合成主播AI的辅助剪辑影像的生成等等观众却是没有办法去得知这些内容是否是AI来产生"},{"start":402.051,"end":429.92,"text":"你提出這種AI的透明度報告或是倫理指引但是實際上業界都會跟你說這是我們的商業機密所以他拒絕揭露相關的這樣的一個基本的資料那你要怎麼去實質的落實你是否贊成應該公部門學界還有公民團體三方共審的一個方式來最後讓你說明"},{"start":431.001,"end":455.066,"text":"好的非常謝謝委員的提案確實我們知道過去媒體的自律第二個他律以及法律這樣的做法是多年來因循著的做法那新聞媒體本身是高影響力有了AI之後就像是站在巨人肩膀上那換句話說他也是影響非常大我個人覺得能夠在這三方面去共管coregulate應該會是將來的一個趨勢謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b168e671ac15b5dee2e2f7db73b8fc9c783c966d97180d5d2eebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:35:45 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您剛剛也提到了這個多元這個多元在這個上面就突然被覆蓋過去了嗎"},{"start":116.498,"end":135.847,"text":"並沒有好沒關係這個我們之後再來請教我想您剛剛的意見也表達得算相當清楚那我想另外您剛剛的公平我想我還是要持續來詢問一下首先NCC在今年的2月有對每件31產品收取750元審查費的事件引發民怨沸騰"},{"start":136.667,"end":162.372,"text":"上路五天之後又暫緩收取這整件事情缺乏跟民眾的直接溝通凝聚社會共識的管道跟社會民意完全脫節您剛剛說要體察民意我想這整個叫做750之亂的事件您就任為主任委員以後您是不是支持應該要避免這種缺乏民意基礎NCC貿然施行政策的情況請回答"},{"start":163.595,"end":183.43,"text":"好謝謝委員的提問確實這個750之亂如果以我一般的民眾來講的角度來講我也感受到民眾對於這樣子覺得不適當知不知實這樣的做法不好意思不用重複我的問題謝謝所以呢如果說我上任NCC之後呢我們會避免這樣子的"},{"start":184.531,"end":199.738,"text":"更改 或者政策不一致 與民眾充分的溝通一定要完全避免 那另外我想你們會不會再研議啊又要再來收一次這樣的審查費因為民間一直有在傳啊 你們只是暫停啊有沒有可能再研議 支持嗎我不支持 謝謝"},{"start":200.643,"end":230.215,"text":"很好我想這個不體察民意的世界我們都不要再發聲另外其實為什麼有這個750之亂是因為有人工竹案審查而且他還不是實質審查其實這樣的一個程序是非常用人工的方式至少一件有可能要花半小時以上就文件審查還不是實質射頻審查那另外呢民間人一直在講各國都有所謂電子射頻器材的審查"},{"start":230.635,"end":258.545,"text":"已經通過已經安全的東西進到台灣還要再重新審查一次有沒有可能做跨國資料的同步請教貝提名人啊您的資歷非常的完整又有數位又有網路人工智慧巨量分析檢查有沒有機會假設您就任主委積極的向行政院爭取資源促進NCC的人工審查流程加速AI化科技化非常謝謝委員提問這個完完全全是跟我的想法是一致的"},{"start":259.515,"end":288.606,"text":"一個數位的政府就該用這種方式來去自動的好謝謝之後希望有機會這個順利上任的話希望請您加油另外也請教貝提名人您也擅長科技領域我們也很高興能夠用同樣的語言我相信你有聽過eSIM就是數位的SIM卡2015年就已經存在了現在已經2025年了它有可能持續用在手機穿戴裝置車載裝置物聯網甚至是無人機上面"},{"start":289.306,"end":304.037,"text":"但是本席進席接獲很多民眾陳情只說了國內各大業者軍醫價的向用戶收取醫性300元的設定費每次轉移再300元民眾有質疑"},{"start":304.818,"end":329.389,"text":"可能有聯合壟斷市場的嫌疑另外呢也有部分媒體質疑為什麼國外的電信業者轉換eSIM的時候不需要收取費用為什麼國內的電信業者就要收取費用據了解NCC2023年曾經向國內電信業者提出著語減免設定費的呼籲但顯然沒有成效想請教被提名人站在促進數位人權與科技應用的立場"},{"start":329.989,"end":342.746,"text":"我的eSIM也是我的NCC應該要提升消費者對eSIM的接受度假如您就任主委是不是願意邀集國內電信業者再度就減免eSIM設定費的議題積極與電信業者進行溝通協調"},{"start":346.55,"end":362.405,"text":"非常謝謝委員的提問確實這個在我的立場上我一定會支持能夠讓國人或者是其他的科技按在這個科技將來的發展的鼓勵的立場上應該是跟業者溝通那這個費用確實聽起來這費用是不合理的謝謝"},{"start":363.663,"end":380.624,"text":"好 這個謝謝您有這樣的一個機會來表達您的看法最後請教貝提名人電子簽章法修正草案已經在去年5月正式施行根據訴發部的答覆NCC沒有提出暫緩適用電子簽章的申請同時據本席了解"},{"start":381.064,"end":395.82,"text":"NCC所公布的行政命令電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法當中也有適用電子簽章的相關規定然後本席辦公室又接獲非常多民眾的陳情目前辦理各項電信號碼的業務剛剛我們講的是價格跟過程"},{"start":399.524,"end":421.025,"text":"現在我要講的是還需要親自到林櫃去辦理這擾民又沒有效率eSIM又更嚴重了一個數位的裝置在設定在轉移的時候竟然還要親臨現場來辦理我們真的是數位之島嗎請教一下被提名的人您是志工系的教授我們也非常高興"},{"start":421.766,"end":442.453,"text":"同時也是資安的專家假如您就認為NCC的主委是不是可以允諾以專業的角度出發大力推動電信業務全面適用電子簽章啊讓很多的民眾在業務上面不要再有很忙很辛苦卻還要抽出時間臨櫃辦理的困擾這個部分能不能現場允諾"},{"start":444.343,"end":463.949,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問那因為這個屬於NCC內部的業務的工作我個人在觀念上面會支持這樣的做法讓數位科技讓更方便那我不知道中間有什麼細節我想如果有機會上任的話我一定會優先把這個議題當作是NCC可以做的事情"},{"start":464.609,"end":484.374,"text":"謝謝您承諾這是一個優先議題啦我想您剛剛提到的八個關鍵字我們都希望假設您有幸可以上任我們也期待您能夠把這八個字真的能夠落實第一個 體察民意第二個 運用科技以上的問題也謝謝被提名人的答覆我們未來一起交流 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09:34:50","影片長度":"00:10:25","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.蔣被提名人榮先-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-20","start_time":"2025-10-20T09:24:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T09:34:50+08:00","duration":625,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.1234687500000002,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.890968750000001,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.98596875,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.65221875,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.49909375,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.548468750000005,"end":54.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.87471875000001,"end":57.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.85721875,"end":59.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.09346875000001,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.58284375,"end":60.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.24096875,"end":65.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.79721875,"end":65.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.97846875,"end":71.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.21034375,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.24346875,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.46284375,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.79159375,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.86659375,"end":83.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.52846875,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.30846875,"end":87.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":87.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.74721875,"end":89.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.09284375,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.15096875,"end":97.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.63596875,"end":99.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.69034375000001,"end":101.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.10784375,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.61409375000001,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.49159375,"end":114.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.56159375,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.69534375,"end":123.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.16784375,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.06159375000001,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.75721875000002,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.77409375000002,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.00596875000002,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.15784375,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.47846875000002,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.54596875000001,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.95471875,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.48159375,"end":141.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.76409375,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.93284375000002,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.01721875,"end":142.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.10159375,"end":142.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.28721875000002,"end":142.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.32096875000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.73346875000001,"end":149.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.40846875,"end":149.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.84721875,"end":152.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":151.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.44159375,"end":153.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.04909375,"end":154.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.87596875,"end":155.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.54659375,"end":175.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.22284375,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.53471875000002,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.59784375,"end":179.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.36971875,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.44909375,"end":190.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.95471875,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.45659375000002,"end":193.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.55346875,"end":193.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.53221875,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.91596875000002,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.16346875000002,"end":233.61471875},{"speaker"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主席謝謝 麻煩請蔣備提名人蔣備提名人蔣備提名人好"},{"start":21.086,"end":35.506,"text":"慷慨激揚的演說不過我們還是回歸到NCC被提名為主委的一個部分我還原一下因為本席一直很關心行政院什麼時候要提出名單但是我們在去年就詢問"},{"start":37.208,"end":57.083,"text":"當時院長也說要送出結果到最後沒有今年4月也詢問院長也說要送出到最後沒有直到7月31號滿了一年才送出我想先請教主委什麼時候跟院長有碰到面然後跟院長有詳談邀請您擔任主委這樣的一個角色"},{"start":59.159,"end":61.179,"text":"所以行政院院長有找你談過兩次"},{"start":87.389,"end":102.183,"text":"是的第一次在什麼時間點差不多第一次是也就是接近了六七月的時候六七月那第二次呢差不多那個時候一個是六月一個是七月是不是是"},{"start":102.757,"end":129.395,"text":"不是被提名人這個問題應該很好回答吧這也不是陷阱題你就是院長有找你談過而且也詳細談了嘛對不對那差不多六七月的時候因為如果說連這問題都沒有辦法告訴國人的話那我們很難問下去那今天回答的都是誠實的回答嘛對不對好OK所以一個六月一個七月那有沒有印象差不多談了多久在院長的辦公室嗎還是"},{"start":131.826,"end":155.345,"text":"是在院長辦公室那談的時間呢我可能沒有辦法記得那麼詳細的但是呢兩次的時間第一次談的時間比較長大約有20分鐘的時間20分鐘所以院長一來就已經跟你講是說他希望提名你並且擔任主委的角色不是院長只是提名我希望能夠擔任被提名人而已謝謝是那之後"},{"start":156.621,"end":186.04,"text":"什麼時候認為是說你合適因為四位委員嘛都學有專精每一位委員我們也都看過了那到最後是提名你並且擔任主委的角色主要是什麼樣的一個最後的一個決定是您回答的讓他覺得說你很有風骨很有專業還是院長覺得是說跟你比較投緣非常謝謝委員提問其實我並不知道我只是最後被告知可能會去需要擔任備評議員然後兼主任委員"},{"start":186.539,"end":193.653,"text":"所以這兩次談完也都沒有跟你講是說你到最後會當主委被提名主委是的好來"},{"start":195.97,"end":218.615,"text":"被提名的人因為之前前NCC不管是委員或主委其實違反行政中立慶祝難輸那其實高居民調最不滿意如果說真的有做最不滿意的民調我想NCC也一直讓國人沒有辦法相信那因此既然你已經被提名為被提名主委了那你覺得如何洗白網路上有看到NCC"},{"start":220.496,"end":229.887,"text":"張詩詩這樣的一個汙名本詩詩很不喜歡對於我們任何的機關有這樣的汙名為什麼因為這每一個機關其實都是代表中華民國但是"},{"start":232.196,"end":249.327,"text":"面子是自己丟的NCC為什麼會讓大家覺得說張嘻嘻其實最主要原因還是因為過去很多的一個例子都是讓大家覺得說沒有行政中立所以主委可不可以簡單說明一下如果真的有機會你被提名了 擔任主委了那怎麼樣恢復民眾對於NCC的獨立性"},{"start":252.11,"end":279.377,"text":"好 謝謝委員的問題那我剛剛有說過其實對NCCD我個人的期待它一定是一個專業然後能夠體察民意的一個獨立機關如果說到要真的要做到如何獨立的話我必須承認我本身在執政黨有朋友在在野黨也有朋友所以我期待在我上任那一天起我會堅持與執政黨跟在野黨保持等距"},{"start":280.492,"end":289.325,"text":"也就是所謂的保持政治上的等距我相信唯有這樣子的我才能夠獨立行使職權那當然我必須跟這朋友們說抱歉了謝謝"},{"start":291.4,"end":316.35,"text":"所以未來你上任 如果說正有機會上任之後你不會跟這些朋友聯繫那如果說朋友主動找你呢因為過去很多的NCC委員甚至有NCC委員屆滿在卸任前發表公開信痛批正沒集體化他直言NCC嚴重的腐化跟腐敗變更條明NCC變成首長制委員不具決策權你怎麼看"},{"start":319.076,"end":336.302,"text":"我相信這是他個人的言論謝謝那剛才我還必須必須回答其實所謂的政治上的等句並不不不不懂於友誼上的等句什麼意思也就是說我會希望能夠在跟執政黨與在野黨"},{"start":337.677,"end":354.98,"text":"保持到政治上的等距但是並不意味著友誼上面所以友誼朋友還是可以交但是如果說講到公事的時候就行政中立我看你怎麼行政中立最主要是過去我們也看到NCC上一屆的NCC的委員"},{"start":356.243,"end":378.001,"text":"因為所謂的這個官司一直持續的連敗我不知道你有沒有注意到NCC其實已經連敗了好幾件官司甚至濫罰的這個裁量到最後也都被撤銷這是行政法院這邊判決出來那NCC委員從2018年NCC每年編列的法律諮詢費用150萬一年到2023年已經高達1310萬"},{"start":383.926,"end":400.458,"text":"十倍之多那如果說假設你有機會上任的話你會針對這一些一一敗訴的部分還要提起上訴還是你認為過去的一些政治紛擾的部分應該要喊停了請說明好 謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":401.923,"end":429.811,"text":"台灣是一個民主法治國家所以一切是以現在的最後的法律的裁決來做最後的決定謝謝那至於NCC內部呢所以你的意思言下之意是說不管你上任之後前面多少爛攤子即便是你不認同他的一個裁量的行為但是該編的法律諮詢費用編的打官司的費用你會編好編滿是這意思嗎不是這個意思謝謝那不然什麼意思"},{"start":430.653,"end":456.521,"text":"應該就是說依法行政依法行政啊對啊那我現在在問你請教您的是說現在已經連續敗訴26敗NCC不承認然後持續編1310萬的法律諮詢費用請律師來跟民間企業打官司啊那你要怎麼樣打未來你是要持續打官司還是你認為是說應該要大破大立過去不合理的部分應該要喊停了不要再繼續上訴"},{"start":459.778,"end":485.135,"text":"那我想我現在是被提名人我會等到有機會上任的時候你沒有想過這個議題你不認為說這一題是我們會詢問的國人所關心的大家所重視的請回答應該現階段呢我還沒有辦法去直接回答謝謝沒有辦法回答來我最後再請教你剛講了一個誠實很重要"},{"start":486.718,"end":503.428,"text":"招委已經站起來了所以我想請教誠實很重要請再回答一次什麼時候院長找你談過請你提名NCC的委員你剛講6月7月我最後再給你一個機會什麼時候院長找你談過提名NCC的委員"},{"start":506.618,"end":528.404,"text":"什麼時候好我可以等一下查我的行事歷然後仔細的詳細的回答謝謝所以剛6月7月是隨便講講不是6月是我的憑記憶謝謝那很簡單嘛你現在講一個如果說你連兩三個月前院長找你那麼重要的事情你都回答不出來我們怎麼有辦法相信你有辦法獨立行使公正客觀的權利跟責任"},{"start":529.813,"end":537.548,"text":"擔任一個NCC獨立機關主委的角色連院長什麼時候找你談都想不起來"},{"start":539.963,"end":567.157,"text":"謝謝也請不是 趙偉趙偉不覺得這些問題很重要嗎因為我不清楚說為什麼會提名被提名人居然剛剛在國會答詢的時候可以那麼草率的回答本席的問題所以他必須要回去好那什麼時候什麼時候你沒有一個印象院長找你兩次是的什麼時間點6月7月是不是是的是6月7月是"},{"start":569.141,"end":590.104,"text":"一次是5月5號5月5號好5月5號請去看一下公開的質詢在4月底的時候就有本院的委員質詢行政院院長說什麼時候要提名NCC的委員結果行政院院長在4月底講說就已經名單確認了等待送出來"},{"start":591.005,"end":602.492,"text":"如果你是5月5號才第一次跟卓榮泰院長見面並且你講說你們有見面兩次在第二次的時候你才被確定要提名的話那到底是行政院長說謊還是你說謊誠實是國人對NCC委員最基本的期待很顯然"},{"start":619.169,"end":621.195,"text":"諸位你無話可說 啞口無言"}]}},{"id":"164347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b92de559dda526ab66d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d23582eaed42b6d64d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:19:20 - 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你說沒錯你也覺得這是一個自相矛盾的事情蕭副總統也提到說台灣承諾要支持川普推動的再工業化"},{"start":271.966,"end":275.91,"text":"這換句話說就是告訴國際說我們整個技術都要轉移給美國了而且不只是台積電還有我們花了40年傾盡國家力量打造的半導體產業生態系全部都要拱手讓人"},{"start":288.382,"end":290.043,"text":"主委這個是作為台灣政府應該要向國際傳達的正確概念嗎以後國際社會關注台灣半導體產業都會自動把副總統的這句話畫重點這對於我們國家發展是一件好事嗎"},{"start":306.441,"end":326.542,"text":"跟委员报告就是说企业他自己决定在国外投资的话其实他有很多考量比如说去美国日本或者德国的话其实很大一部分是因为他的主要客户在那一边能够贴近市场去在地服务那我就技术转移这个部分的话委员可能"},{"start":327.322,"end":353.422,"text":"並不需要那麼擔心因為台積電畢竟還是台灣的上市公司那它的整個的那一個主委我現在是在提醒你身為國發會主委我們國家的發展跟你息息相關你也是我們國家發展的總舵手這一個現在是在提醒你說你必須密切注意整個掏空台灣之後我們國家還有什麼發展那你當這個主委還有什麼事可以做是不是"},{"start":355.043,"end":357.105,"text":"另外要講的就是說我也很肯定國發會在國家整體規劃上的努力尤其有關於前瞻計畫跟長照衛福據點上的準備雲林縣目前佈建了很多實質的協助跟支持"},{"start":376.144,"end":384.633,"text":"那今天我要談一個更具體的案子就是我們台大雲林分院想要在雲林蓋一個長照教學大樓的這個計畫那這個計畫不只是雲林的它是一個國家級的長照示範基地主委這個計畫的經費"},{"start":394.683,"end":411.355,"text":"就是建物的經費24億但是土地的部分呢土地這個部分雲林縣政府已經決定要支持台大提供一塊近10億的土地所以他總經費應該是34億那這個建物的經費24億台大醫院已經自籌了8億那對民間籌募的8億也已經到位換句話說民間跟學界已經完成了三分之二"},{"start":423.803,"end":445.791,"text":"的責任或者是四分之三的責任這展現了多方對此案的共同期待那現在只差中央政府這最後的8億就能夠讓這個國家級的長照教學大樓動工那本案的重要性本席在這裡跟你提醒就是說這不是一般的公共工程"},{"start":446.291,"end":469.78,"text":"它有多重的意義啊第一個就是解決區域的這個長照需求那雲林縣的老人人口可以說是比例高居前段半那住宿市的長照病床缺口極大那這200床是優質而且公益性極高的公共化長照資源能夠有效紓解在地家庭的壓力那第二呢"},{"start":470.3,"end":474.743,"text":"它是人才培訓的基地不只是長照中心它更是一個教學大樓培育專業的人才跟高齡醫學研究中心可以連結那這是為了全國長照服務品質的提升跟人力永續打基礎還有第三點"},{"start":491.053,"end":517.561,"text":"第三點就是說它是智慧照護的示範我知道你們現在國發會一直在推AI智慧等等那這個新大樓更是用智慧照護的模式的一個示範場域那符合國發會推動這個AI產業數位轉型的一個政策方向那也希望說這個已經進入整個審查的階段諸位我想要誠摯的呼籲你關心這個案子"},{"start":517.961,"end":547.186,"text":"然後盡快的發揮這個跨部會的協調讓整個整合包括教育部啊衛福部做密切的溝通讓這個行政流程可以無礙然後盡速的落地這主委可不可以答應我們呢因為這個案子目前在我們這邊審我們原則上會還蠻樂觀的那有一些就是可能要請送審單位要注意一下就是說他對於那個工程的單價這部分裡面的內容可能要再做一些修正這樣子"},{"start":547.426,"end":570.348,"text":"是 我想包括台大云林分院的马惠民院长他也一定会全力以赴来配合国发会的这个要求来修正那我们也希望这一个大楼的案子尽快核定让我们云林县的长者能够受更好的服务然后培育更多的人才也做全国长照的示范点好谢谢 谢谢主委谢谢委员"}]}},{"id":"164383","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164383","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bcf2a5af51d271bbf2e2f7db73b8fc9c783c966d97180d5d25347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"10:38:17 - 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析但是我做一般性的分析所以確實以現在回答委員的問題以現在目前國內這麼多樣性的媒體的生態當中確實有些媒體它的背後的老闆集團所以因此它會有特定的色彩它在一個民主國家的常態裡面這是應該被尊重同時被保護的這樣的一個現象所以我個人不認為說不同的政治光譜"},{"start":215.11,"end":230.712,"text":"導致了這些不同的媒體就應該被管理或被管制我反而認為應該要讓媒體能夠正向的看待當它能夠發聲能夠有更多元化的聲音能夠讓我們的民眾去了解到這個社會的真實的反應的話這是"},{"start":232.634,"end":255.969,"text":"所以主委您認為這個不同的一個立場或者是不同政治光譜的一個媒體集團它是非常的正常那您認為說不同的光譜的媒體集團回到剛剛前面的第一個問題第二個問題就是您對於第四權的理解以及社會大眾對於第四權的一個期待那它要怎麼樣子的在不同的政治光譜當中去符合它第四權一個社會對它的一個期待"},{"start":257.85,"end":281.981,"text":"好 非常謝謝憲法賦予我們的媒體有一個言論自由所以因此所有的人民還有我們的民眾都知道在這個言論自由的保護下面媒體它可以自由發聲它可以揭露它想要表達的事實所以在這樣子的一個媒體的生態當中接下來媒體要做的事就是他們的自律工作了"},{"start":282.381,"end":296.197,"text":"也就是他为何要报道这件事情他为什么要报道这件事情他为了得普利兹奖吗还是他为了要得金马奖或者金钟奖不是的所以应该媒体应该要把他报道这件事情他有他的意志"},{"start":296.874,"end":315.782,"text":"那在現在社會當中特別是民主的台灣的民主的價值的普世價值的現場當中呢這樣的聲音都應該被尊重不管他來聲音有多小多大都應該被尊重那也就是說新聞的自由新聞的自由跟我們NCC監管新聞秩序他的一個界線"},{"start":318.073,"end":337.088,"text":"您認為這個應該會有一個很明確的界線應該要在哪一邊謝謝謝謝委員這樣的提問他也讓我有這個機會來說明媒體的自律以及呢和NCC的應該監管的那樣的權利中間的平衡點是什麼呢中間的平衡點其實就是社會大眾的公共利益"},{"start":337.688,"end":355.971,"text":"也就是他今天報導這件事情如果能夠促進社會的公共利益的話他就值得被報導那NCC也沒有理由要去做他任何的監管所以是否符合公共利益應該還蠻主觀的吧是的也就是您認為NCC應該也不會太去判斷什麼東西是符合公共利益你也很難判斷是不是"},{"start":356.391,"end":384.728,"text":"是確實也就是說以NCC的現況上面呢我們不去做內容的實質審查那然而呢一般的民眾對於輿論的議題呢應該是我們最重要的其實那我可以了解您的立場非常清楚就是原則上是高度自由的一個新聞媒體我們盡量不去做干涉那因此其實前面有人提到了那因此回到我會再有兩個小問題啦您簡單的說有或沒有就好了"},{"start":385.228,"end":414.28,"text":"那您認為中天被關台是否有政治力的干預有或沒有我覺得我很難回答這個問只有用yes和no來回答所以你也不確定有或沒有對我確定不是你沒有辦法確定中天關台有沒有政治力的介入對因為所有的公開資訊看起來目前已經進到司法程序了那所以能夠尊重司法的判決好沒關係那第二個就是靜電室的設立您認為是否政治力的干預"},{"start":415.111,"end":444.751,"text":"好 一樣的道理 靜電視的設立的過程當中這個可能就牽扯到NCC的職權了是 它雖然有完整的中間的過程當中有不斷的爭議那我個人認為現在最適合做的方式就是去做持續的監管也就是持續的觀察這個電視台的表現如果從這電視台現在目前播放出來的新聞如果都觸犯到法律的話那NCC確實應該要去做監管的動作 謝謝好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":446.014,"end":447.479,"text":"謝謝 好 謝謝廖千祥委員"}]}},{"id":"164382","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164382","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b88a1da5ef3f004bf2e2f7db73b8fc9c783c966d97180d5d25347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:29:57 - 10:38:05","影片長度":"00:08:08","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.蔣被提名人榮先-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-20","start_time":"2025-10-20T10:29:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T10:38:05+08:00","duration":488,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.464718750000001,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.333468750000002,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.797218750000003,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.21034375,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.230968750000002,"end":16.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.32784375,"end":18.289718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.00221875,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.829093750000002,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.930343750000002,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.46659375,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.580343750000004,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.60534375,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.63596875,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.52096875000001,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.36409375000001,"end":85.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.38034375000001,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.70784375000001,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.39346875000001,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.76034375,"end":115.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.02971875,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.07596875,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.59471875000001,"end":119.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.57346875,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.41534375,"end":192.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.08096875,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.09721875000002,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.67034375,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.74596875,"end":209.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.10784375,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.94721875000002,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.79909375000003,"end":218.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.59596875000003,"end":219.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.79409375,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.11846875,"end":225.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.13909375,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.29471875000002,"end":230.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.67846875,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.84284375000001,"end":233.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.85096875000002,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.20096875000002,"end":238.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.52534375000002,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.59221875000003,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.97534375,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.48971875,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.75534375,"end":252.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.49784375000002,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.88971875000001,"end":264.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.76596875,"end":266.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.55471875,"end":269.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.20409375,"end":270.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.67221875,"end":272.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.78159375,"end":274.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.94159375000004,"end":276.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.79784375,"end":279.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.26159375000003,"end":280.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.94909375000003,"end":284.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.35346875,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.79596875000004,"end":291.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.95596875,"end":297.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.35159375,"end":299.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.05159375,"end":303.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.48971875,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.63721875000005,"end":308.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.09659375,"end":3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大家發言完畢之後再看是要直接接上去還是到下午 好 謝謝好 委員長好 今天聯席會審查行政院送來的NCC相關的被提名人那首先要恭喜兩位被提名人那剛剛也在台底下我也有聽"},{"start":34.634,"end":58.854,"text":"那我想NCC身為我國憲政體系中具有獨立非常重要的一個機關肩負非常重要的一個任務那我想其職權範圍從通訊傳播設備系統審驗到整個廣播的電視頻道的一個上下架都與全民的資訊接收權是有產業的息息相關"},{"start":59.975,"end":81.606,"text":"那隨著科技跟媒體的快速變遷NCC的角色更為重要我想在現在又面對著數位轉型AI內容的一個深層網路中立性的一個維護以及防制假訊息跟網路安全的一個威脅來做一個挑戰社會對NCC的一個專業公正效率是寄予眾望"},{"start":82.446,"end":94.811,"text":"那也要跟獎盃提名人特別分享我今天早上才跟青年國教行動聯盟一起召開一個記者會那我們在討論的是媒體嗜讀"},{"start":96.772,"end":115.121,"text":"媒體試讀我們可以看到不管是社群平台或者是網路的相關的一些新聞資訊很多的一些甚至是報導未經查證甚至是加工那有施工證甚至有媒體直接運用AI生成的影片"},{"start":116.121,"end":137.623,"text":"照片來做成新聞後續還補充說這個相關的資訊未經查證我想這些都對於現階段我們看到的一些媒體生成的內容還有所謂的媒體試讀以及網路假訊息這些都是我們特別重視的我也在那場記者會說到"},{"start":139.744,"end":159.34,"text":"增加媒體識讀全民來做一個認同重視這不僅僅是讓青年發展有邏輯思維判讀更多元的一個觀點那更希望能夠將假訊息詐騙訊息能夠隔絕跟我們的人民"},{"start":160.06,"end":185.431,"text":"那我們更希望在這樣子一個NCC的獨立性透明度有極高的一個期待也希望不要有政治的干擾還有甚至是行政的一個依附如何讓決策的過程能夠更開放能夠更自我的檢驗也希望這是被提名人應該要努力的一個方向所以首先我想先請問一下蔣先生被提名人"},{"start":186.551,"end":197.505,"text":"社會上現在對於NCC的信任度是不夠的可以說是非常不夠所以NCC也被戲稱是張CC你認為關鍵的問題在哪裡謝委員的提問"},{"start":203.772,"end":231.057,"text":"那任何的一個機構當他的信任被破壞的話其實往往需要多年才能夠修補那過去呢NCC由於有好幾宗的訴訟案件以及呢在過去的一些裁處案件當中呢造成了一些社會的跟社會的期待是不相符的那我很期待我希望我自己能夠以一個將來一個開明務實的主委來自居所以很希望將來呢能夠針對這些過去"},{"start":233.885,"end":247.068,"text":"NCC的這些過往的案件當中呢能夠逐一的去檢視那能夠做一個符合社會期待這樣的一個公務機關謝謝那你能不能另外說明一下你覺得NCC啊怎麼看待它的獨立性"},{"start":248.315,"end":270.766,"text":"是我個人還是說這個NCC你個人怎麼看待好的 NCC是一個依法行政的一個獨立機關那換句話說它必須要維持行政上的中立它才能夠執行針對廣播 電信 傳播通訊等等這些業務上面能夠讓普遍的人民因為這些新聞資訊的訊息而能夠培養他們對這個社會的認識"},{"start":272.947,"end":299.248,"text":"那當然NCC的工作除了說去監管之外呢NCC需要花很多的時間去體察民意去了解到現在目前的社會的普遍的社會期待是什麼那讓這個社會的期待和NCC的作為的最接近這應該是我將來的作為應該這樣子我更直接的問你所以你可以承諾你會以民意為優先並且不會有任何政治的干擾"},{"start":300.129,"end":323.268,"text":"不會接受任何政治的牽涉當然 我剛剛就已經在前面的委員就跟他們說過了各位都是為民喉舌所以每位立法委員其實對於民意的熟悉都很清楚這對我來說你們都是我的老師所以我很希望能夠從你們當中看到這個民意的期待然後我也期待能夠做得更好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":324.389,"end":350.585,"text":"那你的學術背景主要是集中在人工智慧那資訊安全跟醫療數據的一個分析這些領域確實跟資訊通訊的技術是有關的但是我認為NCC涉及的不只是技術也包括媒體的內容公平競爭言論自由等價值議題想請問你如何看待技術治理與言論自由兩者之間的界限好非常謝謝委員提這個這麼重要的問題"},{"start":351.673,"end":365.768,"text":"沒有錯NCC基本上依法是做監管但是他不去做內容的實質審查反而是去鼓勵讓我們的媒體去做自行的自律那換句話說呢"},{"start":367.35,"end":391.383,"text":"技術剛剛委員提到的技術部分是很好的將來的AI的技術或者是將來的生成式AI的技術將來可能也許是能夠被媒體所用例如我們都知道所有的技術是中性的它不具有任何政治色彩用得好它能夠讓這樣子一個產業變得好那用得壞就可能就能夠對這個產業產生破壞"},{"start":393.604,"end":408.403,"text":"所以我们希望将来能够有这个NCC能够有这个角色能够当将来的一个新世代的NCC同时也对科技的拥抱希望能够科技把这些内容产业做得更好"},{"start":408.783,"end":425.244,"text":"另外我想問你你作為如果未來擔任這個機關最重要的一個單位我們在審查任何的媒體相關的生成內容的時候所發現到有一些問題你看我剛剛有說的AI生成內容"},{"start":425.945,"end":452.74,"text":"AI生成影片被誤用甚至他就是要使用那你覺得NCC未來一定會面對AI生成內容的時候比如說AI的主播這樣子新型態你是否支持NCC主動研議AI內容透明的標示制度比如讓民眾知道這段新聞影片畫面照片是人寫的還是AI生成的你支持嗎"},{"start":453.622,"end":476.805,"text":"謝謝委員的提問確實目前生成式AI已經造成了社會大眾的困擾它雖然說提供了方便性但一般民眾對於它的識別的識度如果不足的話很容易去誤導民眾所以將來也許在媒體產業上面除了自律之外除了事實查證之外我也很同意委員這次提到的"},{"start":477.225,"end":484.268,"text":"對於深層次內容應該主動明確的標示能夠讓所有的閱聽人有很好的認識 謝謝 好 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員發言"}]}},{"id":"16965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16965","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd54f5580a36c7ffd635b403533b0607f60aa126c40303dc2798c44e856665f25d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"1.蔣被提名人榮先-立法院第11屆第4會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查行政院函送國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單，蔣榮先為委員並為主任委員，程明修為委員並為副主任委員，黃葳威及羅慧雯均為委員，請同意案。\n【10月20日（星期一）依序分別審查蔣被提名人榮先、程被提名人明修；10月22日（星期三）依序分別審查黃被提名人葳威、羅被提名人慧雯。】\n【10月20日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-20T08:40:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T12:16:00+08:00","duration":12911,"影片長度":"03:35:11","委員發言時間":"08:40:49 - 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社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1147.529,"end":1175.378,"text":"出席委員已足法定人數現在開會現在介紹在場的委員我們先介紹列席的官員行政院秘書長張敦海秘書長教育科學文化處吳敬儒處長"},{"start":1179.005,"end":1203.096,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為主任委員被提名人蔣榮軒國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為副主任委員被提名人陳明修是在上午11點的時候才會列席行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處李花書處長"},{"start":1217.452,"end":1244.195,"text":"本次會議進行審查行政院韓宋國家通訊傳播委員會委員提名名單蔣榮鑫為委員並為主任委員陳明修為委員並為副主任委員黃薇薇及羅惠文軍委委員請同意案並說明如下立法院院會一一四年八月八號第十一屆第三會期第二十四"},{"start":1246.01,"end":1270.96,"text":"24次會議報告交付交通教育及文化兩委員會審查本案行政院並將審查時所需個別提名人之相關資料移送立法院參考交通委員會已於8月28日舉辦公聽會日前並已完成本院各黨團對"},{"start":1274.025,"end":1303.192,"text":"被提名人之資格及事任性所提書面問題函請行政院轉至各被提名人經行政院函附各被提名人提出之相關資料及拒絕部分檢証於各黨團在案本案審查程序安排本20日及22日兩天一次會議分別審查"},{"start":1304.704,"end":1333.777,"text":"本日先依序分別進行被提名人蔣榮鑫先生及陳明修先生之說明與答詢22日再依序分別進行被提名人黃薇薇女士及羅惠文女士之說明及答詢本日會議開始進行各被提名人之說明與答詢前先宣告以下事項"},{"start":1335.342,"end":1361.891,"text":"先進行被提名人蔣榮鮮先生之說明與答詢與行政院長張敦海秘書長及蔣榮鮮先生分別說明後即進行答詢蔣榮鮮先生部分全部答詢結束後休息10分鐘再進行被提名人陳明修先生之說明與答詢程序同上"},{"start":1363.103,"end":1385.161,"text":"答詢時間出席委員6分鐘列席委員4分鐘本院委員發言登記於10點30分截止本日會議不處理臨時提案現在開始進行被提名人蔣榮鮮先生之說明與答詢"},{"start":1387.589,"end":1395.319,"text":"現在請行政院張敦涵秘書長就被提名人蔣榮先生之說明來 請張秘書長"},{"start":1407.87,"end":1435.091,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生各位媒體先進朋友今天貴委員會召開本會期第一次的聯席會議審查行政院提名蔣榮鑫為國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為主任委員陳明修為委員並為副主任委員那黃薇薇及羅惠文兩位為委員之同意案本人應邀列席報告深感榮幸那國家通傳播通訊委員會"},{"start":1436.272,"end":1464.985,"text":"是憲法保障通訊傳播自由的重要守門人更是在數位時代當中國家通訊安全與數位主權的重要防線依照NCC的組織法NCC致力於促進通訊傳播的健全發展維護國民權利保障消費者的利益提升多元文化尤其隨著極端氣候的變遷AI的應用普及以及資安的新時代的挑戰"},{"start":1466.553,"end":1492.589,"text":"日益嚴峻那NCC將來更是要肩負起防堵電競差期強化災防韌性的重要工作那這次的提名工作是依據NCC組織法第四條第一項第三項第四項所來辦理那回顧這次NCC新任委員的提名歷程那前任委員"},{"start":1494.11,"end":1521.144,"text":"這個陳耀祥翁伯中林立雲與王維京四個人的任期在去年的7月31號屆滿行政院在去年的4月30號依法提名並送請貴院來進行審查這個為未完成審查的程序並經貴院在今年的6月24號撤回同意的同意撤回提名然而為了確保NCC相關的業務持續推動"},{"start":1522.785,"end":1544.362,"text":"那行政院也依照立法院職權行使法第29條之一等相關規定在今年的7月31號將新提名的名單並同被提名人的最高學歷論文財產稅務刑案紀錄表等資料送請貴院審查那也跟這個委員會做一個說明"},{"start":1545.343,"end":1568.151,"text":"雖然新提名的委員如果經過立法院的同意不能夠來得及在去年的8月1號前任命但為了維持NCC組織法所定的任期交作制的精神並參考中選會的前例如果這個這次提名的四位新任的委員經過立法院的同意四位委員的任期"},{"start":1570.612,"end":1595.904,"text":"實際會從實際到職日起算到2028年7月31號為止那接著說明這次新任委員的提名原則主要有三項第一個是維持專業均衡那四位被提名人的專長涵蓋資訊法律傳播以及財經領域而不僅皆符合組織法的相關的規範也兼具了學術或者是實務的相關經驗"},{"start":1597.105,"end":1610.944,"text":"第二個是在黨籍的規定上也合法合規那這次的四位被提名人當中僅有陳明修先生為中國國民黨黨籍其餘三位被提名人是屬於無黨籍那如果經過貴院"},{"start":1612.95,"end":1641.716,"text":"同意任命那通常會未來的全體的七位委員當中僅有一位是國民黨籍那其餘六位皆為無黨籍那有黨籍的比例僅有14.3%完全符合這個組織法規定當中同一黨籍不得超過委員總數二分之一的相關規定那第三個提名的原則則是四位被提名的人當中都沒有中國的戶籍或者是身份證件那也沒有外國的永久居留權"},{"start":1642.856,"end":1654.745,"text":"無涉外的疑慮也符合相關的國籍規範那接著容許我用一點時間來介紹這四位被提名人首先是今天也是馬上要審查的蔣榮軒委員並為主任委員那蔣榮軒"},{"start":1658.688,"end":1681.527,"text":"先生他現任是國立成功大學資工系及研究所的教授專長為資訊及網路管理在人工智慧資訊安全醫療照護巨量資料分析等領域是有著住的這個學友專精那也曾經擔任過成大醫院的資訊長在COVID-19的疫情期間也曾領導跨域的團隊開發AI的判讀模型"},{"start":1684.389,"end":1699.855,"text":"兼具科技專業跟社會實踐能力那蔣龍先生他也曾經在2022年獲得聯合國教科文組織UNESCO推舉為全球Top 10的AI團隊這也是亞洲唯一入選的團隊"},{"start":1701.115,"end":1717.893,"text":"那第二位陳明修委員並為副主任委員那相信這個許多委員對他是有一定的熟悉度那他是現任東吳大學法學院的特聘教授專長為法律那在經濟行政法管制理論特許法制憲法訴訟資訊等基本權學有專長"},{"start":1721.697,"end":1737.569,"text":"他是國民黨籍那也承認公務員保障保訓會的專任委員那也曾經擔任過NCC一開始的這個調解委員或數位委員那在公法的法治監理體系有富有豐富的經驗"},{"start":1739.175,"end":1766.232,"text":"那第三位是黃薇薇委員那黃薇薇委員現任是國立政治大學廣電系的教授那專長為影音媒體市場傳播理論法規與媒體的識讀尤其在深耕兒少網路安全等傳播領域是非常的有深耕這個也有相當的努力那他曾經擔任iWIN網路內容防護機構執行長也曾經擔任過衛星工會以及多家媒體"},{"start":1766.912,"end":1787.242,"text":"的新聞倫理或者是自律委員會的委員或者是主任委員對媒體的自律創新跟公共責任有深厚的時機那第四位是羅惠文委員那羅惠文委員他現任是世新大學傳播管理學系的助理教授專長是傳播政策傳播產業公共媒體政治經濟"},{"start":1788.342,"end":1810.49,"text":"等方面那因為他的學金力也是這個經濟學的博士所以他除了傳播之外也有財經方面的相關的專業那他也曾經擔任過公視基金會的董事媒體改造學社的理事長長期關注媒體改革與傳播產業發展的領域那縱觀這個這次四位被提名人雖然來自於不同的專業領域但卻展現出"},{"start":1813.931,"end":1839.998,"text":"公共責任感與社會關懷的共通點那這樣的組合加上現有的三位委員相信更能夠深化台灣在數位民主治理的厚度與韌性那更能讓NCC在AI的時代能夠平衡自由與秩序創新與安全那依照這個NCC組織法第八條的規定NCC是依法"},{"start":1841.309,"end":1869.921,"text":"獨立行使職權然而我們所有人都期待NCC能夠獨立於政治但不脫離社會依法行使職權也主動回應人民的期待這次是為被提名人敬請貴院能夠同意支持讓NCC在AI與數位治理的新時代持續專業獨立跟公信力守護人民的通訊自由與資訊安全以上報告敬請各位委員先進執教謝謝"},{"start":1876.266,"end":1898.881,"text":"謝謝張敦海秘書長的說明現在要先進行列席委員的介紹首先介紹洪孟凱召委何新淳委員徐滬葵委員現在要邀請被提名人蔣榮鮮先生做說明"},{"start":1928.091,"end":1952.979,"text":"請容我有幾分鐘的時間來介紹自己我來自一個很平凡的家庭就像是典型的五年級生成長在台灣經濟起飛的時代那個時候小時候看著媽媽繳學費的時候在裱花也看著自己的家庭的經濟逐漸變好也就是我們所謂的最有韌性的那一代我們這一代很幸運"},{"start":1954.147,"end":1969.933,"text":"就是亲眼见证了整个国家从农业工业然后进入到一个资讯世代的转变在80年代进入90年代的时候大学毕业之后存了一些钱然后呢很幸运的就拿到美国奖学金到美国读书了"},{"start":1971.721,"end":1991.562,"text":"那個時候其實很簡單反正到哪個學校都一樣那就是哪一個學校給獎學金哪個學校學費最便宜我就去哪裡所以35年前很意外的我選擇了美國密蘇里大學哥倫比亞分校去讀到了美國才知道原來這所學校"},{"start":1992.745,"end":2019.454,"text":"在1908年就設計就建立了全世界第一所的新聞學院他在中華民國還沒有開國之前就建立了這個新聞學院那當年呢他們所撰寫的新聞人的誓言也就是我們所熟知的媒體人守則一直到今天都在使用那一百多年來這個母校一直是很多年的都是美國第一名的一個新聞系所"},{"start":2020.41,"end":2040.813,"text":"那台灣的許多知名的媒體的記者女士先生們都曾在那邊留學這也是我和所謂的新聞媒體的第一次接觸也沒想到解下了不解之緣那時候印象非常深刻每天在學校免費的CNN的節目有一個節目叫Crossfire在那個Crossfire上面上叫做交叉火力"},{"start":2042.089,"end":2055.661,"text":"美国最有名的辩论节目跟我们现在目前在台湾的立法院差不多每天针锋相对大家辩论然后辩论政策的价值也让我自己体会到了媒体第四权有了深刻的体认"},{"start":2057.998,"end":2072.425,"text":"我是在一九九五年的五月獲得電腦博士那一年剛好遇到大家所知的一九九五年潤八月大家都知道印象深刻隔年發生了第一次台海危機同時呢中共的試射飛彈"},{"start":2073.993,"end":2097.161,"text":"那我畢業之後拿到四個工作機會後來呢才知道了因為我博士學位期間呢參與了美國克林頓總統指派高爾進行的美國國家資訊通訊基礎建設計畫也就是所謂美國的NII計畫那這個計畫呢是我的博士論文的一個部分後來呢在國內呢同一時期呢當時的"},{"start":2099.541,"end":2117.94,"text":"總統府的執政李國麟先生看到了台灣也就藉這個機會應該可以發展網際網路所以當時指派了夏漢銀先生就是當時的政務委員夏漢銀先生預計要招募十位從美國參加過美國NIA國家計畫的人能夠回來台灣因為台灣沒有經驗"},{"start":2119.858,"end":2139.924,"text":"很慶幸的我是那十位中的一位那當年在美國那時候還要打月亮電話的時候有天的深夜我接到了夏漢明先生的電話他打來電話就問我說蔣博士你確定你要回來台灣嗎因為台灣很緊張喔那他言談之中告訴我說其實"},{"start":2141.277,"end":2169.389,"text":"他們預計招募的人選沒有那麼樂觀聽說要回來了五位最後只有兩位回來他確定說李國廷先生希望知道你會回來那我其實聽了非常感動我覺得自己有這個機會能夠參與這樣子自己發揮的專長所以後來也就讓我回台灣之後我大半輩子的工作行政工作都是在做網際網路的管理我從最基礎的"},{"start":2170.256,"end":2197.535,"text":"在大学教课之余我担任组长到主任然后到资讯长等等那也就是当年的台湾的学术网络TANET也许各位不知道什么叫TANET我跟大家介绍一下也就是全台湾所有的国小生国中生高中职大学的学生和教授们他们每一天在使用的网络全盛时期这个TANET使用者大概将近有500万人我当时负责国家南部网络中心的主任"},{"start":2198.769,"end":2222.701,"text":"那也就是讓我有這個機會見證到了那是台灣第一次透過海底電纜和國際接軌的這個機會跨越了國境連接了世界那最近的中華電信它呢終於邁入三十週年很多人都知道那我們也很很慶幸我能夠慶幸自己參與了這個數位國力的縮影感到很很驕傲"},{"start":2224.028,"end":2244.576,"text":"其中我的工作當中有一個比較特別的經驗就是在1999年大家可能聽過Y2K事件我其實就是Y2K事件的最主要的主角之一當年所有人在1999年12月31號的半夜準備要跨年的時候我在成大帶著一群工程師們盯著電腦的螢幕確認所有電腦都不會因為Y2K之後"},{"start":2251.21,"end":2273.625,"text":"電腦全部斷機斷線然後所有的飛彈亂射或者所有的電腦作業不正常我個人感覺到非常驕傲而且很焦慮那也是那一代所謂的網路管理者專屬的記憶當然跨越千禧年來我們進到21世紀了走完了第一個四分之一個世紀了已經2025年了"},{"start":2275.373,"end":2296.131,"text":"我個人很慶幸的見證了從波階上往就是滴滴答答滴滴答那個波階線一直到現在的次世代光纖可以看到從應用面向整個打造台灣的數位社會的一個生態系台灣的土地非常小但是數位世界的疆土非常大"},{"start":2297.253,"end":2308.822,"text":"我們已經不是一個二流的國家了數位科技可以讓媒體和通訊傳播業跟傳統有了很大的不同可以透過創新培養屬於台灣的軟實力我個人很期待NCE能夠把媒體視為一個產業"},{"start":2317.581,"end":2344.333,"text":"將來能夠把通訊傳播電訊複製成一個活躍的產業而且營造一個公平而且健康的環境他就像運動一樣嘛各位可能知道你喜歡統一師他喜歡魏全龍當然我們也可以有中信兄弟那麼多的球隊啊所以這是粉絲經濟學的概念所以我們期待未來的NCC呢他的挑戰不是只有頻道的分配"},{"start":2345.734,"end":2375.063,"text":"而是能夠讓產業媒體跟公民之間形成一個公平透明又充滿活力的競爭的環境那當然我自己對於通訊傳播產業有這樣的期許第一點我希望我能夠身為被提名人我能夠去以我的力量以我的想法能夠保障言論自由跟多元媒體的生態除非導致明顯且立即的危險"},{"start":2376.653,"end":2403.912,"text":"就像是我在回答了三大党团总共40道题目当中我非常详细的叙述了除非导致明显且立即的危险任何言论不应该受限制确保不论媒体的大小你的背景或者你的立场都能有公平的发展空间都能有他们发声的空间让社会大众能够接触更多元的观点"},{"start":2405.782,"end":2434.01,"text":"第二点呢期待能够推动跟时代接轨的通讯传播的法规来因应科技的演进例如对深圳市AI的内容5G的频谱社群平台等一些新兴的议题通传会应该主动与其他部会共同研拟法规还有产业的指引例如相对的政策还有制定更开放更透明还有扩大公众参与的方式"},{"start":2434.929,"end":2462.615,"text":"避免政策落後於技術發展第三點我覺得將來在強化各種媒體平台它的責任跟透明度上面將最重要的舉個例子來說可以主動要求大型社群的媒體跟網路的平台針對假新聞假訊息還有甚至於操控的演算法以及用戶隱私管理更具有透明度"},{"start":2463.885,"end":2487.933,"text":"同時呢也持續跟這個社群平台業者和社會大眾溝通來實現用跨域來做打仗一些民眾所期待的這些議題那最後呢我覺得實現普及以及公平的這樣子一個網路連接特別是在偏鄉弱勢的社群當中能夠加速推動寬頻建設價格合理"},{"start":2489.242,"end":2500.694,"text":"縮短全民的數位落差那當然NCC最重要的工作是維護閱聽人跟消費者的權益那能夠持續的賭詐能夠強化用戶的數據規範等等這都是NCC將來可以做的"},{"start":2507.301,"end":2527.133,"text":"我同時也知道部分的公民團體基金會非常關切NCC的業務甚至於在這個週末兩天前的下午還提出了問卷個人非常感謝這些學者專家很精闢的提問不過我仍然以立法院大院三大黨團內在稍早提出了40個問題我個人逐一詳細的回應了"},{"start":2530.785,"end":2558.522,"text":"由於時間還有個人的專業能力有限那多項提問呢也許有不詳細的地方也請各位見諒那對於NCC我的期待非常單純它必須是一個專業能夠體察民意的獨立機關我會希望未來有機會的話請各位一點時間我一定讓各位看到一個有願景"},{"start":2559.554,"end":2570.98,"text":"值得期待正直獨立的公務機關那我也期待也希望能夠帶領這一群懂技術懂政策懂人民需求的專業團隊謝謝大家蔣榮謙先生說明完畢現在補充介紹列席委員林國成委員"},{"start":2588.018,"end":2610.443,"text":"葛如君委員現在我們要邀請第一位登記發言的委員首先邀請洪孟凱召委來發言好 主席謝謝 麻煩請蔣備提名人蔣備提名人"},{"start":2624.576,"end":2646.003,"text":"好長輩提名人好康凱基揚的演說不過我們還是回歸到NCC被提名為主委的一個部分我還願意一下因為本席一直很關心行政院什麼時候要提出名單但是我們在去年就詢問當時院長也說要送出就到最後沒有"},{"start":2646.573,"end":2663.13,"text":"今年4月也詢問院長也說要送出到時候沒有直到7月31號滿了一年才送出我想先請教主委什麼時候跟院長有碰到面然後跟院長有詳談邀請您擔任主委這樣的一個角色"},{"start":2664.943,"end":2691.452,"text":"好 謝謝委員那我必須要詳細的說明詳細的日期我可能一時解不清楚了但是卓院長非常的認真那有跟我有做兩次的會談對 什麼時間點那應該是我的問題因為當時我們學校因為所有的社會平民都是養生在正值上課期間那上課期間我們都沒有辦法做LEAK基金的答應所以行政院院長有找你談過兩次"},{"start":2693.41,"end":2708.216,"text":"是的第一次在什麼時間點差不多第一次是也就是接近了六七月的時候六七月那第二次呢差不多那個時候一個是六月一個是七月是不是是"},{"start":2708.8,"end":2735.416,"text":"不是被提名人這個問題應該很好回答吧這也不是陷阱題你就是院長有找你談過而且也詳細談了嘛對不對那差不多六七月的時候因為如果說連這問題都沒有辦法告訴國人的話那我們很難問下去那今天回答的都是誠實的回答嘛對不對好OK所以一個六月一個七月那有沒有印象差不多談了多久在院長的辦公室嗎還是"},{"start":2737.867,"end":2761.386,"text":"是在院長辦公室那談這時間呢我可能沒有辦法記得那麼詳細的但是呢兩次的時間第一次談的時間比較長大約有20分鐘的時間20分鐘所以院長一來就已經跟你講是說他希望提名你並且擔任主委的角色不是院長只是提名我希望能夠擔任被提名人而已謝謝是那之後"},{"start":2762.662,"end":2792.258,"text":"什么时候认为是说你合适因为四位委员嘛都学有专精每一位委员我们也都看过了那到最后是提名你并且担任主委的角色主要是什么样的一个最后的一个决定是您回答的让他觉得说你很有风骨很有专业还是院长觉得是说跟你比较投缘非常谢谢委员提问其实我并不知道我只是最后被告知可能会去需要担任被评议人然后兼主任委员"},{"start":2792.583,"end":2817.145,"text":"所以這兩次談完也都沒有跟你講是說你到最後會當主委被提名主委是的好來被提名的人因為之前前NCC不管是委員或主委其實違反行政中立慶祝難輸啊那其實高居民調最不滿意如果說真的有做最不滿意的民調我想NCC也一直讓國人沒有辦法相信那"},{"start":2817.765,"end":2835.948,"text":"因此既然你已經被提名為被提名主委了那你覺得如何洗白網路上有看到NCC張CC這樣的一個汙名本席其實很不喜歡對於我們任何的機關有這樣的汙名為什麼因為這每一個機關其實都是代表中華民國但是"},{"start":2838.24,"end":2855.368,"text":"面子是自己丟的NCC為什麼會讓大家覺得說張嘻嘻其實最主要原因還是因為過去很多的一個例子都是讓大家覺得說沒有行政中立所以主委可不可以簡單說明一下如果真的有機會你被提名了擔任主委了那怎麼樣恢復民眾對於NCC的獨立性"},{"start":2858.134,"end":2885.421,"text":"好 謝謝委員的問題那我剛剛有說過其實對NCC我個人的期待它一定是一個專業然後能夠體察民意的一個獨立機關如果說到要真的要做到如何獨立的話我必須承認我本身在執政黨有朋友在在野黨也有朋友所以我期待在我上任那一天起我會堅持與執政黨跟在野黨保持等距"},{"start":2886.533,"end":2895.369,"text":"也就是所謂的保持政治上的等距我相信唯有這樣子的我才能夠獨立行使職權那當然我必須跟這朋友們說抱歉了謝謝"},{"start":2897.421,"end":2922.371,"text":"所以未來你上任如果說正有機會上任之後你不會跟這些朋友聯繫那如果說朋友主動找你呢因為過去很多的NCC委員甚至有NCC委員屆滿在卸任前發表公開信痛批正媒集體化他直言NCC嚴重的腐化跟腐敗變更條明NCC變成首長制委員不具決策權你怎麼看"},{"start":2925.119,"end":2942.359,"text":"呃我相信這是他個人的言論謝謝那剛才呃我還不是必須回答其實所謂的政治上的等句並不不不不懂於友誼上的等句謝謝委員什麼意思也就是說我會希望能夠在跟執政黨與在野黨"},{"start":2943.717,"end":2961.018,"text":"保持到政治上的等距但是並不意味著我友誼上面所以友誼朋友還是可以交但是如果說講到公事的時候就行政中立我看你怎麼行政中立最主要是過去我們也看到NCC上一屆的NCC的委員"},{"start":2962.279,"end":2984.105,"text":"因為所謂的這個官司一直持續的連敗我不知道你有沒有注意到NCC其實已經連敗了好幾件官司甚至濫罰的這個裁量到最後也都被撤銷這是行政法院這邊判決出來那NCC委員從2018年NCC每年編列的法律諮詢費用150萬一年到2023年已經高達1310萬"},{"start":2989.947,"end":3006.502,"text":"十倍之多那如果說假設你有機會上任的話你會針對這一些一一敗訴的部分還要提起上訴還是你認為過去的一些政治紛擾的部分應該要喊停了請說明好 謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":3007.947,"end":3035.846,"text":"台灣是一個民主法治國家所以一切是以現在的最後的法律的裁決來做最後的決定謝謝那至於NCC內部呢所以你的意思言下之意是說不管你上任之後前面多少爛攤子即便是你不認同他的一個裁量的行為但是該編的法律諮詢費用編的打官司的費用你會編好編滿是這意思嗎不是這個意思謝謝那不然什麼意思"},{"start":3036.694,"end":3062.559,"text":"應該就是說依法行政依法行政啊對啊那我現在在問你請教您的是說現在已經連續敗訴26敗NCC不承認然後持續編1310萬的法律諮詢費用請律師來跟民間企業打官司啊那你要怎麼樣打未來你是要持續打官司還是你認為是說應該要大破大立過去不合理的部分應該要喊停了不要再繼續上訴"},{"start":3065.799,"end":3091.176,"text":"那我想我現在是被提名的人我會等到有機會上任的時候你沒有想過這個議題你不認為說這一題是我們會詢問的國人所關心的 大家所重視的請回答應該現階段呢我還沒有辦法去直接回答 謝謝沒有辦法回答來我最後再請教你剛剛講了一個誠實很重要"},{"start":3092.759,"end":3109.469,"text":"招委已經站起來了所以我想請教誠實很重要請再回答一次什麼時候院長找你談過請你提名NCC的委員你剛講6月7月我最後再給你一個機會什麼時候院長找你談過提名NCC的委員"},{"start":3112.662,"end":3134.431,"text":"什麼時候好我可以等一下查我的行事曆然後仔細的詳細的回答謝謝所以剛六月七月是隨便講講不是六月七月是我的憑記憶謝謝那不是很簡單嘛你現在講一個如果說你連兩三個月前院長找你那麼重要的事情你都回答不出來我們怎麼有辦法相信你有辦法獨立行使公正客觀的權利跟責任"},{"start":3135.854,"end":3143.566,"text":"擔任一個NCC獨立機關主委的角色連院長什麼時候找你談都想不起來"},{"start":3146.004,"end":3173.181,"text":"謝謝也請不是 趙偉趙偉不覺得這個問題很重要嗎因為我不清楚說為什麼會被提名人居然剛剛在國會答詢的時候可以那麼草率的回答本席的問題所以他必須要回去好 那什麼時候什麼時候你沒有一個印象院長找你兩次是的什麼時間點6月7月是不是是的是6月7月是"},{"start":3175.182,"end":3196.145,"text":"一次是5月5號5月5號好5月5號請去看一下公開的質詢在4月底的時候就有本院的委員質詢行政院院長說什麼時候要提名NCC的委員結果行政院院長在4月底講說就已經名單確認了等待送出來"},{"start":3197.046,"end":3208.531,"text":"如果你是5月5號才第一次跟卓榮泰院長見面並且你講說你們有見面兩次在第二次的時候你才被確定要提名的話那到底是行政院長說謊還是你說謊誠實是國人對NCC委員最基本的期待很顯然"},{"start":3225.051,"end":3240.829,"text":"主委你無話可說 啞口無言也請主委被提名的人先請回座也必須查明相關的形勢力要做明確的說明我在這邊再補充"},{"start":3242.741,"end":3261.347,"text":"說明本會會議的進行程序尊重每一位委員的發言時間所以六分鐘時間到了響鈴一次接下來如果委員無法在一分鐘內再做收尾的話我們會再響鈴三次然後再每過30秒"},{"start":3263.147,"end":3274.217,"text":"也會再想你一次再做一次的說明不論黨派所有委員發言世界我們都同樣的給予尊重以及基本的規範現在請葛如軍委員發言"},{"start":3295.563,"end":3301.182,"text":"謝謝主席有請被提名人蔣榮鑫先生請被提名人蔣先生"},{"start":3307.386,"end":3332.597,"text":"委員好蔣先生好恭喜您這次被提名為NCC委員並且為主任委員在此您也說明了您對於NCC業務的立場首先我想對於這個時序的黑箱也希望您之後可以再多做說明那您剛剛有提到幾個關鍵字公平言論自由一定要堅持這一點我也想先詢問您一下近期有這個教育部"},{"start":3333.958,"end":3356,"text":"說這個中小學的Wi-Fi要擋掉抖音還發了公文要警告說小紅書很危險到各大學校同時呢 成大也發生了疑似有這個長城在擋住這個B站的這個問題請問您如果上任以後您認為您同不同意應該要盡量避免這樣的事情"},{"start":3358.732,"end":3384.357,"text":"好 謝謝委員那很非常謝謝委員提到這個有關於中小學的抖音或者是像這樣子的一個社群媒體使用的情形那台灣還是一個民主自由的國家所以呢我們可能無法向某些國家去用強制性的方式去做限制那然而呢在中小學生在學校的階段他所接觸到的"},{"start":3384.957,"end":3387.399,"text":"對 您剛剛也提到了這個多元啊這個多元在這個上面就突然被覆蓋過去了嗎"},{"start":3402.522,"end":3430.283,"text":"並沒有好沒關係這個我們之後再來請教我想您剛剛的意見也表達得算相當清楚那我想另外您剛剛的公平我想我還是要持續來詢問一下首先NCC在今年的2月有對每件31產品收取750元審查費的事件引發民怨沸騰上路5天之後又暫緩收取那這整件事情缺乏跟民眾的直接溝通凝聚社會共識的管道"},{"start":3430.703,"end":3448.399,"text":"跟社會民意完全脫節您剛剛說要體察民意我想這整個叫做750之亂的事件您就任為主任委員以後您是不是支持應該要避免這種缺乏民意基礎NCC貿然施行政策的情況請回答"},{"start":3449.602,"end":3469.457,"text":"好謝謝委員的提問確實這個750之亂如果以我一般的民眾來講的角度來講我也感受到民眾對於這樣子覺得不適當知不知實這樣的做法不好意思不用重複我的問題謝謝所以呢如果說我上任NCC之後呢我們會避免這樣子的"},{"start":3470.558,"end":3485.78,"text":"更改或者政策不一致 很好 與民眾充分的溝通一定要完全避免那另外我想你們會不會再研議又要再來收一次這樣的審查費因為民間一直有在傳你們只是暫停有沒有可能再研議 支持嗎我不支持 謝謝"},{"start":3486.67,"end":3516.221,"text":"很好我想這個不體察民意的世界我們都不要再發聲另外其實為什麼有這個750之亂是因為有人工竹案審查而且它還不是實質審查其實這樣的一個程序是非常用人工的方式至少一件有可能要花半小時以上就文件審查還不是實質射頻審查另外民間人一直在講各國都有所謂電子射頻器材的審查"},{"start":3516.641,"end":3544.548,"text":"已經通過已經安全的東西進到台灣還要再重新審查一次有沒有可能做跨國資料的同步請教貝提名人您的資歷非常的完整又有數位又有網路人工智慧巨量分析 檢查有沒有機會假設您就任主委積極的向行政院爭取資源促進NCC的人工審查流程加速AI化 科技化非常謝謝委員提問這個完完全全是跟我的想法是一致的"},{"start":3545.522,"end":3574.633,"text":"一個數位的政府就該用這種方式來去自動的好謝謝之後希望有機會這個順利上任的話希望請您加油另外也請教貝提名人您也擅長科技領域我們也很高興能夠用同樣的語言我相信你有聽過eSIM就是數位的SIM卡2015年就已經存在了現在已經2025年了它有可能持續用在手機穿戴裝置車載裝置物聯網甚至是無人機上面"},{"start":3575.333,"end":3590.059,"text":"但是本席近期接獲很多民眾陳情只說國內各大業者均一價的向用戶收取eSIM300元的設定費每次轉移再300元民眾有質疑"},{"start":3590.839,"end":3615.393,"text":"可能有聯合壟斷市場的嫌疑另外呢也有部分媒體質疑為什麼國外的電信業者轉換eSIM的時候不需要收取費用為什麼國內的電信業者就要收取費用據了解NCC2023年曾經向國內電信業者提出著語減免設定費的呼籲但顯然沒有成效想請教被提名人站在促進數位人權與科技應用的立場"},{"start":3616.013,"end":3628.752,"text":"我的eSIM也是我的NCC應該要提升消費者對eSIM的接受度假如您就任主委是不是願意邀集國內電信業者再度就減免eSIM設定費的議題積極與電信業者進行溝通協調"},{"start":3632.577,"end":3648.432,"text":"非常謝謝委員的提問確實這個在我的立場上我一定會支持能夠讓國人或者是其他的科技按在這個科技將來的發展的鼓勵的立場上應該是跟業者溝通那這個費用確實聽起來這費用是不合理的謝謝"},{"start":3649.67,"end":3664.516,"text":"好 謝謝您有這樣的一個機會來表達您的看法最後請教貝提名人電子簽章法修正草案已經在去年5月正式施行根據訴發部的答覆NCC沒有提出暫緩適用電子簽章的申請"},{"start":3665.376,"end":3681.828,"text":"同時據本席了解NCC所公布的行政命令電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法當中也有適用電子簽章的相關規定然後本席辦公室又接獲非常多民眾的陳情目前辦理各項電信號碼的業務剛剛我們講的是價格跟過程"},{"start":3685.55,"end":3707.032,"text":"現在我要講的是還需要親自到林櫃去辦理這擾民又沒有效率eSIM又更嚴重了一個數位的裝置在設定在轉移的時候竟然還要親臨現場來辦理我們真的是數位之島嗎請教一下被提名的人您是志工系的教授我們也非常高興"},{"start":3707.793,"end":3728.496,"text":"同時也是資安的專家假如您就認為NCC的主委是不是可以允諾以專業的角度出發大力推動電信業務全面適用電子簽章啊讓很多的民眾在業務上面不要再有很忙很辛苦卻還要抽出時間臨櫃辦理的困擾這個部分能不能現場允諾"},{"start":3730.367,"end":3749.976,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問那因為這個屬於NCC內部的業務的工作我個人在觀念上面會支持這樣的做法讓數位科技讓更方便那我不知道中間有什麼細節我想如果有機會上任的話我一定會優先把這個議題當作是NCC可以做的事情"},{"start":3750.636,"end":3776.333,"text":"謝謝您承諾這是一個優先議題我想您剛剛提到的八個關鍵字我們都希望假設您有幸可以上任我們也期待您能夠把這八個字真的能夠落實第一個 體察民意第二個 運用科技以上的問題也謝謝被提名人的答覆我們未來一起交流 謝謝謝謝各位的發言我們接著有請李坤澤召委"},{"start":3791.303,"end":3795.067,"text":"謝謝謝謝許富奎主席現在請蔣榮軒被提名人有請我們蔣被提名人"},{"start":3806.622,"end":3821.042,"text":"蔣榮軒先生您好最近我們就直接來問相關的NCC的業務那最近台北車站發生相關的性侵的事件那當然"},{"start":3822.062,"end":3839.271,"text":"媒體在報導相關的性侵害性騷擾甚至是兒童兒少的保護事件的時候他必須還是要遵守相關的法令就是我們看到性侵害"},{"start":3840.231,"end":3867.55,"text":"犯罪防治法的第13條第一項以及性騷擾防治法以及相關的兒童及兒少的福利法他們都有兩個基本的原則第一個原則就是不得揭露相關當事人的或者是足以辨識當事人被害人的身份這是一個重要的原則第二個是要保障"},{"start":3869.071,"end":3894.936,"text":"保護被害人的隱私這是兩個主要的原則但是我們在這一次看到相關的報導過程裡面很遺憾的還是有部分的媒體他的隱蔽其實是非常的粗糙這個沒有辦法去做到能夠明顯的這樣的一個保障被害人的隱私以及破壞了這種不得"},{"start":3897.573,"end":3905.992,"text":"可以辨識被害人身份的這樣的一個基本的一個限制跟保障我現在要請教"},{"start":3908.224,"end":3927.219,"text":"蔣先生 被提名者我們對於這樣的報導的過程這樣粗糙的隱蔽沒有辦法去保障被害人的身分不得已被辨識的這樣一個重要的原則如何保護被害人的隱私這樣的一個基本的原則來 請你說明一下"},{"start":3928.935,"end":3946.692,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我也確實有當看到這個新聞的時候自己覺得非常的難過確實我們的新聞媒體還有它的專業性它在報導的時候其實因為本身NCC並不做新聞的內容審查"},{"start":3947.953,"end":3961.097,"text":"所以呢新聞的素材它是不是能夠清楚的能夠針對保護兒少的議題或者甚至於弱勢的這樣的議題能夠針對這樣的議題做更好的這樣子的保護應該是會更好的"},{"start":3961.792,"end":3985.247,"text":"那當然就是這件事情的事後呢就我所知道應該是國鐵公司呢還有將這樣的資料呢或者就做一些遮蔽那當然如果說是一個合理的一個做法的話我相信當不管是報案人或者是受害者他們都不希望這樣的事情發生"},{"start":3986.427,"end":3998.452,"text":"媒體在這件事情報導的過程當中不適當的使用這些影音這些甚至於資料其實確實是不適合的謝謝"},{"start":3999.639,"end":4024.374,"text":"好當然我們都要尊重新聞媒體的報導的自由以及言論的自由但是類似這樣的一個事件其實社會以及法令都有基本的而且是很嚴肅的原則這兩個原則不管是不得揭露主語辨識被害人身份以及保護被害人隱私這樣的重要原則是必須要堅持那現在因為NCC"},{"start":4025.094,"end":4038.886,"text":"的委員人數不足啊當然在做行政處置的時候當然會陷入相關的困境如果人數不足這樣的狀況繼續發生那相關的NCC會做怎樣的一個處理來你說明一下"},{"start":4040.279,"end":4059.258,"text":"是 現在目前的NCC由於委員人數不足所以成立了一個資訊委員會那對於重大的案件現在目前暫時是做擱置 做列管的動作那當NCC重新如果有機會再順利啟動的話我們的委員會就會"},{"start":4064.369,"end":4082.439,"text":"就如同NCC組織法所列的那會詳細的把所有的這些案件都逐一的考量好 我的重點是如果委員會NCC的委員人數仍然不足來作為相關的行政處置的時候你認為NCC要遵循怎樣的處理方式來處理呢"},{"start":4086.185,"end":4105.973,"text":"NCC的基本的核心理念其實是保障通訊傳播這所有是這個市場的公平以及監理的工作那目前NCC內部的研議他們在依法確實是無法去實行委員會但是他仍然有相關的不同的"},{"start":4107.213,"end":4133.952,"text":"處是會針對不同的問題去做處理所以呢像這些類似的問題也許不需要進到委員會去做大方向的決定好另外你有做基本的回覆啦那我再進步來跟就教育被提名人你有提到你認同新聞媒體善用AI是屬於高影響力的這樣一個領域那"},{"start":4135.253,"end":4154.556,"text":"它的核心理念當然就是要真實透明隱私跟避免偏見要制定相關的這樣的一個指引相關的法規人才的補助相關的透明報告等等那其實我們看到現在台灣還沒有建制這一種"},{"start":4155.757,"end":4183.205,"text":"具有法律強制力的AI內容的標示或者是相關的審核制度那其實我們看到有很多的這樣的一個媒體其實已經在使用AI的撰稿AI的合成主播AI的輔助剪輯影像的生成等等那觀眾卻是沒有辦法去得知這些內容是否是AI來產生那"},{"start":4184.065,"end":4211.931,"text":"你提出這種AI的透明度報告或是倫理指引但是實際上業界都會跟你說這是我們的商業機密所以他拒絕揭露相關的這樣的一個基本的資料那你要怎麼去實質的落實你是否贊成應該公部門學界還有公民團體三方共審的一個方式來最後讓你說明"},{"start":4213.015,"end":4236.679,"text":"好的 非常謝謝委員的提案確實我們知道過去媒體的自律第二個他律以及法律這樣的做法是多年來因循的做法那新聞媒體本身是高影響力有了AI之後就像是站在巨人肩膀上那換句話說它也是影響非常大我個人覺得能夠在這三方面去共管coregulate應該會是將來的一個趨勢謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4248.704,"end":4254.227,"text":"謝謝徐富奎委員現在請黃國昌主席發言請備提名人"},{"start":4272.449,"end":4290.694,"text":"委員長安蔣老師好老師在你自己專業領域當中的著作多數以外文發表我稍微瀏覽了一下你的著作目錄看了一下對於老師在你自己專業領域當中學術上面的表現我個人是高度肯定我個人是高度肯定"},{"start":4291.654,"end":4308.843,"text":"但是接下來的提問也要請蔣老師能夠體諒因為這是NCCNCC處理電信 處理媒體涉及龐大的商業利益更攸關台灣民主的成熟或者是台灣目前正媒集團的墮落"},{"start":4309.944,"end":4337.61,"text":"所以接下來的問題可能蔣老師既然已經被提名了你在你的著作當中你也很誠實的說不管是電信還是媒體相關的事情你從來沒有做過任何的研究也沒有相關的任何的研究計畫為什麼提名您出任NCC的主委過去大概都是媒體或者是電信突然找蔣老師來當主任委員我擔心你是誤入叢林的小白兔"},{"start":4339.091,"end":4358.885,"text":"在這個過程當中讓自己可能遇到一些沒有辦法預期的狀況但這是人事同意權的審查我們對NCC委員非常的嚴肅接下來就請江老師直接針對問題回答第一個 你什麼時候同意出任NCC委員的"},{"start":4360.299,"end":4382.776,"text":"好的 剛才 謝謝委員第一個 你什麼時候同意出任NCC委員好 第一次呢 卓院長5月5日的時候有邀請我是 什麼時候點頭的那一次呢 我答應回去就去思考是所以兩個星期之後呢 那時候呢所以大概520就同意了嗎應該是之後因為我今天一定要追出來啊當初卓榮泰跳票"},{"start":4384.034,"end":4409.109,"text":"5月底以前NCC的名單要送到立法院一拖再拖他說裡面因為有人有生涯的考慮要配合他我聽不懂啦中華民國這麼重要的政府職位到底要因為哪一個人的生涯考慮拖到8月30號才送來結果我看8月底送來的資料明明5月的時候就整理好啦"},{"start":4410.174,"end":4429.599,"text":"五月整理好遲遲不送來拖到八月底是裡面真的有人說我有生涯考慮大家等我還是要等到大罷免大落賽了以後知道不能再拖了才送來第二個過去有NCC的主委竟然有業者"},{"start":4430.922,"end":4449.175,"text":"在民進黨秘書長洪耀福的帶領下直接找主委出來說這個禁電視的執照要拜託出來喬來 請問一下蔣老師未來如果有民進黨的秘書長去關說 說特定電視台的執照要給他過這個面你會這個面你會見還是不會見"},{"start":4458.176,"end":4480.517,"text":"會還是不會現在我沒有要把以前的事情歸咎在你身上陳耀祥做的是陳耀祥自己負擔洪耀福做的是洪耀福自己負擔但我要一個基本的態度謝謝當初問陳耀祥的時候他負無藥無菌人家只是來關心啊表達關切啊為什麼這個電視台的執照還沒有發啊"},{"start":4485.447,"end":4507.048,"text":"相同的情況發生在你身上你會接受這種關說嗎來請教江老師好的委員謝謝您的提問非常簡單的答案剛才我前面就已經說得很清楚了我有機會上任的話我會和執政黨與反對黨保持政治上的等距也就是說非常的清楚"},{"start":4507.848,"end":4530.853,"text":"政治上我老師說啦老師講的話非常政治正確但是其實老師只要講一句話秉持我的專業跟獨立依法該怎麼辦就怎麼辦這樣就好了好那我馬上來進行第一個蔣老師可能過去對於新聞傳播比較沒涉獵我強烈推薦你林立雲跟王維京這兩個絕對不是藍的啦"},{"start":4534.375,"end":4546.187,"text":"這兩個也不是白的啦這兩個都是綠底的啦我跟這兩個老師很熟啊所以我說他們綠底他們不會他們不會介意啊綠營出身的傳播學者在講什麼"},{"start":4547.321,"end":4571.327,"text":"台灣政媒共生集團透過政治與媒體影響力藉由土地開發謀利也介入政治甚至政府領域包括人事個案與政策讓媒體成為政治部門的輿論宣傳工具不公正的新聞報導及節目導致台灣新聞頻道的社會信任度長期居於世界排名倒數為台灣民主的另外一個危機"},{"start":4572.407,"end":4582.527,"text":"這不是我說的這是林立雲跟王維京兩位我尊敬的媒體界的前輩也是前NCC委員講的主委看到這樣的聲明你認不認同"},{"start":4584.465,"end":4603.034,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問那已經卸任的委員他發表這樣的聲明那他應該是有他自己的說話的權利我個人覺得台灣的媒體將來能夠做得更好或變成一個很好的產業的話其實除了說服國人"},{"start":4603.954,"end":4630.391,"text":"能夠將自律的更好對啦 我也希望但在現在的環境當中我是很悲哀我直接用一個具體的主席站起來了我最後只用一分鐘用一個具體的例子給被提名的人看一看就是當初有民進黨撐腰違法取得執照的靜電視前兩天說我什麼說我用假對話截圖蒙騙社會"},{"start":4632.847,"end":4657.657,"text":"我黃國昌問政 從來沒有人敢說我拿出造假的資料孰可忍 孰不可忍啦我馬上要求說明澄清結果呢 結果出事發訊給我的人他的律師給我喊 證實我出的函全部都是真的那代表了什麼 代表了進電視在做假新聞"},{"start":4658.911,"end":4679.645,"text":"我要求他們公開道歉他們也沒公開道歉到目前為止裝死當中啊裝死當中啊指著我的鼻子說我造假人家發的律師函說我都是真的我要他道歉啊他不道歉沒有關係我不是問你態度立場我要考你法規啊依照現行的法律這樣的行為"},{"start":4681.431,"end":4689.08,"text":"依照現行的法律 NCC主管的法律不要講民法或刑法依照NCC主管的法律有哪一個條文在規範這樣的行為"},{"start":4691.135,"end":4709.749,"text":"好的 沒有確實NCC是保障人民的知情權那也就是說那些聽起來不喜歡的或者不舒服的不好意思喔我現在在問的是哪一條法律規範這樣的行為沒有有來所以我就跟你說你作為主委的被提名人要多熟悉自己未來要主管的法規衛星廣播電視法第27條"},{"start":4713.072,"end":4721.285,"text":"第53條的規定規範的很清楚 除了罰還座重還可以停止該節目或廣告採取必要的更正措施"},{"start":4723.092,"end":4737.383,"text":"蔣老師不是來自這個專業領域 衛廣法不熟我們大家願意給你時間跟空間但是怎麼取得社會跟國會的信任說蔣老師有這樣子的專業來擔任主委是接下來比較大的挑戰好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員質詢完畢現在請柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":4755.398,"end":4769.627,"text":"謝謝我們請我們你沒有回去休息好我們請我們的獎盃提名人好謝謝我像我目前為止還是叫你蔣老師好了而且你進到這個會場之後你應該發現被叫老師應該比這個被提名人這個頭銜來得更輕鬆一點沒錯吧"},{"start":4772.697,"end":4789.966,"text":"好來蔣老師我想以你的學經歷跟你的資訊專長來擔任我們的政府首長我個人覺得他是絕對符合資格的但是呢NCC長年以來他就是被大家詬病就是完全缺乏了這個所謂獨立的一個精神所以備受外面的一個抨擊"},{"start":4791.667,"end":4813.095,"text":"像去年11月這個NCC的這個主委這個代理這個主委翁博中在去職的時候還恐嚇民眾他告訴大家如果NCC委員懸缺恐怕沒有辦法開iPhone這個會議所以沒有辦法上市你對他這個說法這就是大家被詬病然後事實證明沒有啊iPhone還是如期上市沒有NCC好像還比較親近一點"},{"start":4813.815,"end":4840.473,"text":"所以這就是我們所提到的NCC的獨立自主甚至有人提到這個NCC被變成髒CC就是在過去當中太多太多的事件沒有辦法來我先幫這個被提名人回憶一下你看中天被撤造的事件這是台北高等行政法院就已經判定中天勝訴然後目前還在上訴還有推動數位中介這是引發非常多的平台業者是強力的一個反彈"},{"start":4841.434,"end":4868.46,"text":"還有包括進電視在剛開始的時候資金沒有到位還有高層人士三立入股宗家案違反媒體壟斷的底線這些狀況這個被提名人你有充分去理解嗎是然後呢你的看法我沒有辦法讓你在這麼短的時間是但是我只能說這些部分都是過去我們所列出來的一些我們認為是需要被釐清而NCC沒有辦法變成他一個獨立然後來看待這件事情更何況我呼應剛剛黃國昌委員所提到的"},{"start":4871.101,"end":4897.788,"text":"这都是离去之前非常真实的一个告白批判走向的正媒集团化而且呢对于新闻报道不公而且他特别还提到的这让我们新闻的频道完全失去了公信力跟社会影响力永远在表决的时候都是五比二二就是他们那当然大家会批判说你为什么在当任主委的委员的时候不敢讲离去的时候还讲我们每一个人都是这样子啊很多时候都是如此但是他们所讲的"},{"start":4898.328,"end":4912.64,"text":"還有包括我前面所調列的黑歷史無非就是最近為什麼一個可以是獨立的一個機關目前為止被大家才發現沒有辦法發揮所以身為一個主委的一個角色你未來如何洗掉張希希的這樣一個汙名"},{"start":4913.995,"end":4940.074,"text":"謝謝委員的提問確實我身為被庭名人其實我認知到就是在中天案當中應該去正視這個案件當中的一些輿論還有對於程序正義的一些疑慮應該正視這個問題那確實我也認知到引發社會對於NCC程序正義跟比例原則這樣的疑慮就是我認為NCC應該要深刻檢討"},{"start":4940.939,"end":4962.735,"text":"因為對我們來說身為一個在野黨人來說我們完全明確的只看到這個執政黨永遠很想介入這個NCC所以你覺得你有辦法去承擔這樣子的一個壓力然後來升任我們認為你應該是主管一個獨立精神的一個角色嗎你有辦法有這個抗壓性嗎好剛才我已經回前面委員的話就是我希望"},{"start":4963.686,"end":4985.845,"text":"未來有機會的話給我一點時間我會讓各位看到一個有願景值得期待政治獨立的機關我們當然非常希望因為我們也很希望NCC的委員可以透過這樣子能夠提出一個有專業然後最重要是他可以秉持著這個獨立的精神我想沒有人會否定這樣的一個角色而且我也認為NCC過去是有很多優秀的文官"},{"start":4986.565,"end":5008.941,"text":"所以說呢很多的團體難免會有一些的害群之馬我想你也應該知道嘛前NCC委員去當電信那個門神而且呢寫論文還可以付諮詢費等等所以呢最後我想請問你就是除了這個你剛剛已經保證說你會讓我們大家看到你都維持一個等距很獨立的但是呢很現實的問題你如何約束規範這些NCC的委員跟嚴守這個旋轉門那個規範然後維持"},{"start":5013.484,"end":5031.764,"text":"不是在你這一任而是你未來在過去已經被污名化如果說可以從你這邊開始徹底的改變這樣NC的感覺還有最重要的是你如何能夠讓這樣子一個NC的名聲再繼續的維持下去跟他的一個形象這個完全是個事實你怎麼樣來避免這樣的事情發生好 謝謝委員的提問"},{"start":5033.052,"end":5045.266,"text":"将来如果NCC能够有机会在那边工作的话我希望能够实现被社会大众认可的这种中立性还有程序正义这会是我的第一件工作而且是唯一的一件工作"},{"start":5045.609,"end":5064.391,"text":"不是 我還在問你你如何約束規範然後嚴守你剛剛所講的部分只是一個宣示性的作用但對我們來說我們需要很具體的一些的做法萬一你有看到或者是類似像這個狀況就表示過去一定有一些內部的管理出了一些的缺失所以才讓你們這些"},{"start":5065.532,"end":5084.533,"text":"这些委员里面呢会有这些的弊端出现你如何用一个更强制性的方法来避免这样的状况我刚刚特别提到的严守旋转门的这个规范你的具体的做法是什么不是一个口号的宣誓而言贝提米人是当然就是依法行政如果这些人有违法一定是惨"},{"start":5084.873,"end":5108.461,"text":"當然你違法一定是依法行政這都是被追到這個就是依法行政才會被發現在你的管理的層面上面非常多而且NCC不像是常常就會被叫出來這樣質詢你們有很多的委員過去在這麼做狀況的狀況之下面所以我才只要問你的這個整個的嚴格的一個規範上面不是依法行政這四個字有辦法解決的被提名人到目前為止"},{"start":5109.801,"end":5118.529,"text":"講話是非常的保守然後呢不斷的告訴我們你是可以但是我們看不出來在這整個的具體的做法上面這是我目前為止對你很大的一個疑問如果還允許我說的話"},{"start":5123.175,"end":5143.528,"text":"我希望能夠重建社會大眾對NCC的信任那做法呢很簡單如果你想知道的話我想委員我會開始去執行一個步驟一個步驟先求容易的求小勝然後呢最後累積成滴水穿石這種改革策略會一件一件把這件事做好"},{"start":5144.195,"end":5157.762,"text":"好吧因為你是被提名然後呢很多的具體的事件還沒有到你手上我只能說在今天這個國會殿堂上你能夠遵守遵守你的諾言讓我們一步一步的看到你到底有哪些的作為好謝謝好謝謝柯智恩委員發言完畢現在請萬美玲委員發言"},{"start":5174.34,"end":5199.281,"text":"謝謝趙偉 我們有請我們的蔣榮軒備題名人請備題名人委員早安好 備題名人你好我看到了你的縣職是成大資訊工程學系特殯的教授兼成大醫院健康數據資源中心執行長對嗎是"},{"start":5201.724,"end":5221.249,"text":"您的學歷是美國密蘇里大學電機技電腦工程所的博士 對嗎是的好 我可以帶看到你過去的專長跟研究的領域不管是在生醫資訊探勘人工智慧智慧型計算雲端醫療照護癌症與幹細胞研究等等這都是你的專業跟這個研究的領域"},{"start":5221.929,"end":5241.519,"text":"那我看過這些以後真的發現你在這些領域上面有著很卓越的一個成績喔但是呢你現在被提名為這個NCC的主委喔我看不出來你對於通訊傳播的這個專業上面有什麼地方那你怎麼認為自己可以來接這樣的一個職務喔那你的優勢是什麼我能不能給你一點時間讓你這個重點闡述一下"},{"start":5244.531,"end":5273.608,"text":"好 非常謝謝委員的提問那如同您所提到的確實我過去的專長是電腦博士專長是人工智慧那在過去的跟NCC有什麼關係過去的25年來我在做網際網路的管理我在做網路的管理所以從網路的所有的台灣學術網路當中500萬人在使用網路的所有網路的公約網路的制好 就是你對網路上面也有一些專業在是這樣嗎好 還有別的嗎"},{"start":5278.567,"end":5281.712,"text":"我還對網路上面的安全還是網路 是的還有別的嗎"},{"start":5286.895,"end":5309.748,"text":"還有像是例如我過去在行政工作上面其實也曾經去好網路網路加行政好OK好那如果說這個看起來網路網路加行政跟NCC的專業上面其實沒有那麼緊密的一個結合那我請教一下你剛才一直在講講了很多什麼"},{"start":5310.208,"end":5320.888,"text":"要重建信任啦 要相信我啦等等我想這件事情不能只有建立在信任上嘛那早上被尋到現在本席還沒有聽到你提出來你到底要怎麼具體做"},{"start":5324.431,"end":5348.832,"text":"呃 我想 請問委員的問題是說我要怎麼樣去把NCC做這組合做好所以我問你 你問我因為我確實剛沒有 沒有很清楚好 沒關係 那我再來問一題你比較能夠答的好不好你對於NCC啊 因為你要來接這個位子你一定有去了解一下NCC到底是什麼單位過去的歷史到底怎麼樣 有沒有做這個功課有的有 好 那你對於這幾年NCC的印象最深的是什麼"},{"start":5351.053,"end":5373.895,"text":"過去我們國人普遍對NCC不信任好 你的這個印象最深刻就是NCC不獲得國人的信任這是第一個 再來第二呢 就是我們發現到NCC有許多的在行政上面的裁罰呢已經引起了社會普遍的民眾的不滿意不信任 不滿意 好 還有嗎"},{"start":5377.725,"end":5389.952,"text":"所以NCC給你的整個概括起來的感覺就是我們不信任他我們也不滿意他好那我請教一下我們對於前組委陳耀祥組委過去的這個五年當中你覺得他做得好嗎"},{"start":5392.206,"end":5409.759,"text":"對個人的工作形容很抱歉我沒有辦法評論謝謝他是主委耶他是主委耶我沒有評論他個人好不好他是主委耶他帶領整個NCC耶你不評論他我確實沒有辦法評論他所以你也不了解他做的好不好那你知不知道我們在這個陳耀祥前主委的這個任內有哪些NCC的爭議事件"},{"start":5411.394,"end":5440.463,"text":"因為你剛剛告訴本席說你有去研究一下嘛你也去了解一下嘛因為自己即將要可能即將就要這個來NCC嘛被提名了嘛所以呢你有沒有去看了一下這些爭議的事件是哪些目前三大黨團的提問當中都有提到過去NCC普遍的爭議案例如中天案例如靜電視案例如其他的這個電訊傳播的這個收費案整件所以在三大黨團的提問當中的40道題目我都已經詳細的回應了"},{"start":5440.723,"end":5467.096,"text":"好 你都有了解嗎我想幾件 第一個2020年 我們聚中天換照這件事情鬧得沸沸揚揚 過程充滿瑕疵所以也引起了大家對NCC最不滿 最不信任大概從這裡開始在我們在看到這個數位仲介法也好 進電視上架也好三立入股中加案等等 這一些通通都是爭議本席就以2020年聚中天換照這件事情為例"},{"start":5468.136,"end":5486.769,"text":"這件事情 外界普遍認為有政治介入中天跟NCC之間的法律訴訟到現在還在進行中 請問貝提名人知道嗎知道這一段時間 我們看到NCC的訴訟的費用明顯的攀升從過去105年到109年 平均只有105萬110年到114年 總共編列多少錢"},{"start":5495.014,"end":5512.925,"text":"多少錢3856萬啦平均每一年要花771萬的公帑打官司啊這樣的花費您認為合理嗎值得嗎我對於預算的編列還有使用上面因為沒有任何的這個細節的了解這是我第一次看到 謝謝"},{"start":5514.13,"end":5531.437,"text":"沒有了解也要有概念啦 你覺得這樣合理嗎一個單位 在這幾年當中每年都要花700多萬來打官司 你覺得合理嗎如果連這題都打不出來 你怎麼將來待任CCR合理嗎這個費用確實是高的"},{"start":5532.488,"end":5555.537,"text":"確實是高的 好 我想因為今天時間也很有限我希望如果您真的有機會接任主委之後您是不是能夠在這裡保證再保證代理NCC回歸專業 然後保持中立未來能夠讓這個國人對NCC恢復信任而且最重要一點 絕對不受任何政治力的影響跟介入 這點您做得到嗎"},{"start":5556.697,"end":5571.143,"text":"謝謝 做得到做得到 保證做得到好 你不要現在為了要上任都說做得到然後只想在現在匆匆容容的要上任但如果你真的做不到本期要提醒你你可能會連滾帶爬的離開好不好謝謝好 謝謝汪美玲委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5590.717,"end":5613.132,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC主委被提名人請被提名人劉仙主委委員早安主委早主委今天早上我想可能是主委一個人生第一次見面吧"},{"start":5615.104,"end":5641.834,"text":"被很多的我們的立委同仁來提問那我剛有特別看了一下我所問的內容以及主委的答覆主委大概一直過去專就是專長在網路這一塊但主委知道我們現在NTT其實有一個重要業務就是網路傳播的治理那台灣現在很多的網路上的奇奇怪怪的行為犯罪的行為詐騙等等"},{"start":5645.46,"end":5672.746,"text":"但是最重要的問題我認為是在於我們現在並沒有一個法律可以來管理網路上相關的一些就是說犯罪也好我們對網路上的管理目前幾乎是沒有法律所以NCC現在就如果你要對網路上能夠有一點他律那就等於必須要完成相關法案的立法了"},{"start":5674.079,"end":5699.982,"text":"否則 目前我們網路上都只能靠自律我舉個例子 10月9號 北車發生的那個有一個性侵的案件 你知道吧那這個案件 結果這個電視台 踢台它把這個畫面 它是監視器它就把北車 不知道怎麼樣取得北車的畫面它直接就把它在它的新聞節目裡面播出"},{"start":5700.953,"end":5726.748,"text":"那第一台播出的時候他雖然有用馬賽克但是你注意看這個還是可以看出他做出一些犯罪的行為和動作那這個拍攝的畫面以及這樣新聞播出來以後其中有一個部長有回應了衛務部長有回應了衛務部長說你這個拍攝這樣的一個性影像雖然他是翻拍的基本上已經處罰了"},{"start":5728.308,"end":5749.283,"text":"而更不用說你上架為了傳播影像而且在新聞報導內容也不應該揭露被害人的相關個資主委知道這個事情嗎是 知道那這個基本上也是NCC管的因為我們第一個在這個相關裡面有電視節目分級處理辦法我們還有衛星廣播電視法"},{"start":5755.376,"end":5778.141,"text":"我們播出人的內容基本上必須受到第27條第三項你不可以有違反下列幾個事項例如違反法律強制或法律禁止剛剛這個影片第一個他不可以去未經當事人的同意他不可以直接去取得這樣的影片性侵犯防治法裡面就有規定到"},{"start":5780.782,"end":5808.84,"text":"你不可以翻拍更是不可以有刑法就有規定刑法規定的是你不得無故於照相錄影我記錄攝錄其他的現影像刑法本來就有規定性侵害防治法更規定你不可以隨便的揭露再來再回到你管的電子節目分解處理辦法所以基本上有衛廣網裡面還有電子節目分解處理辦法所以其實NCC管的是非常廣泛的"},{"start":5812.838,"end":5825.692,"text":"相關的事情這個其實就是一個案例以後發生這個事情的時候那就是有NCC就必須要扮演一定的角色主委你對這個事情有什麼評論嗎"},{"start":5826.636,"end":5845.561,"text":"好 謝謝林委員那這個案件確實當時在社會上引起雷震騷動那我也注意到這個新聞那如果以現在目前NCC所掌管到的廣播電視傳播法以及它的分級處理辦法當中確實在隱私這個部分呢它在這個報導上面確實是非常嚴重的問題"},{"start":5846.681,"end":5862.64,"text":"那我們也知道隱私和社會公共利益之間它的這個平衡點這也是目前NC將來有機會的話應該是要詳細的把這部分的工作把它做好 謝謝其實很多立委會對你有一些就是說非常嚴厲的一個質詢"},{"start":5864.713,"end":5892.726,"text":"也在於NCC它其實掌有非常大的一些相關的權力例如NCC的內部就有一個廣電媒體自播涉及性別相關的那種制導原則這是你頒布給所有媒體的一個原則你看 你NCC就可以要求媒體做到這些事情所以NCC權力其實是很大的就是說你不可以播放哪些東西像我剛提的北車這個事情這個媒體實在很過分"},{"start":5893.826,"end":5913.985,"text":"因為你本來就不得不得洩露比如說性騷擾 性圈蓋 受害者的身分和資訊如果他違反這些事情比如說不可以畫面語音或文字凸顯另一個性特徵等等那這些都可以影響到相關的媒體的未來的一個評鑑的一個參考"},{"start":5916.055,"end":5935.971,"text":"所以我是要提醒主委喔未來在如果你在執行你的業務上那NCC基本上它大概主要業務有相關的衛廣啦電信啦你這廣的其實非常繁雜啦無線通訊等等那其中你現在"},{"start":5937.867,"end":5959.054,"text":"NCC要比較受到批判的應該是在網路這一塊尤其針對網路犯罪那其實也是因為無法可管那這個部分我們過去的那個網路相關法案NCC你來以後可能一個重要任務就是趕快讓這個法案你把它整點完成"},{"start":5961.103,"end":5989.365,"text":"然後來送到立法院或者跟立委溝通如果沒有一個法案的話目前說我們看到的網路犯罪等等其實大家對你的批判對政府的批判然後相關的法案又沒有制定出來或者制定出來的時候這個在立法院又沒有辦法得到通過那整個即使國家就有網路這個他律的管理就全部卡在那個地方了"},{"start":5990.8,"end":6017.561,"text":"所以主委你為了這個我相信這一塊對你會是會是一個最大一個挑戰非常謝謝委員謝謝非常謝謝主席謝謝林俊憲委員發言完畢接下來要請林國成委員發言在林國成委員發言之前稍微做個簡單的說明我們在廖先祥委員發言完畢之後"},{"start":6019.182,"end":6035.432,"text":"會休息十分鐘請黨團助理告知相關委員現在請林國成委員發言謝謝好謝謝我們召委來請我們蔣提名人請蔣被提名人委員好"},{"start":6041.587,"end":6067.917,"text":"好 我看我們黃國昌總召叫你是蔣老師但是我在想一向寫者專家我當然都持有非常尊敬之態度但是我們蔣提名人我要請教你一下我們台灣民眾黨一向秉存三個言者請問"},{"start":6069.963,"end":6082.252,"text":"我們講提名人你知不知道哪三項我們在問政的風格不知道吧第一個就是理性再來務實再來科學"},{"start":6084.747,"end":6101.797,"text":"所以這三種當中我會採取第一個理性探討的態度來對我們講提名人針對未來NCC如何去推展或者你有什麼"},{"start":6103.636,"end":6115.165,"text":"胸懷大志如何去做改革這個是我啟喜的但是我還是要提醒我們蔣提名的到立法院來一定要誠實"},{"start":6117.678,"end":6144.797,"text":"誠實是最好的一個執政答詢的方式所以剛剛我還特別來聽為了這個院長或總統來召見你這個時間的問題我還是建議這個部分要把它理清楚我相信未來在同意前的部分會有所幫助這是我以重心長給蔣提名人的一個建議來"},{"start":6146.238,"end":6155.163,"text":"蔣提名人我們大家都知道啦你在學術研究當然有你的專長跟你的特色但是在這裡今天張秘書長也在這裡我覺得"},{"start":6159.502,"end":6183.714,"text":"你的專業很適合去數位部當部長所以不適合在NCC當主委這個我要特別提醒我們張秘書長要下情上打所以現在的亂象就是什麼專業錯置隔行如隔山請問"},{"start":6185.936,"end":6214.802,"text":"因為到現在為止很多委員執行你的專業問題我看你的大作你對於醫學AI以及所有的研究部分你的專長就是放在這裡就是數位這個部分但是跟媒體一點關係都沒有所以在這個部分蔣提名人給你一點時間你有什麼看法"},{"start":6216.218,"end":6240.528,"text":"非常謝謝林委員這麼關心我的工作還有過去的研究其實我過去如果用一個簡單的經驗來去敘述的話如果我有百分之三十的時間是做研究百分之三十的人做教學百分之三十的人做行政工作的話其實剛好研究的工作占百分之三十的時間過去在成功大學在成大醫院服務的時候我歷經過三任校長然後歷經過三任院長"},{"start":6243.789,"end":6263.215,"text":"他們當時在我卸任的時候他們對我的評價其實很簡單就是這個人他的行政的手腕其實非常的願意去做事情第二就是這個人是很公正的這樣子所以我想也許是這個原因所以才能夠被提名好 謝謝"},{"start":6264.674,"end":6291.395,"text":"其實我要你答覆這是大家的疑慮因為這個同意前當然就會牽涉到你過去的著作跟你未來如何去做這個要綜合起來是否同意這些東西都會影響每一個委員對於你的看法另外一個我比較冒昧的請教我們蔣提名人"},{"start":6292.156,"end":6306.373,"text":"你的研究計畫裡面完全跟NCC的執掌多少是沒有關係但是在這個部分你現在擁有閣科會給你的研究案喔"},{"start":6308.015,"end":6326.11,"text":"到最後可能要用到三大電信公司你在這個研究案研究到一半的時候請問你如果出任了這些NCC主委的時候你如何去迴避或如何去切斷研究這個請你回答"},{"start":6327.045,"end":6350.802,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問很慶幸的我現在目前所手上的執行的以及過去執行的研究計畫當中目前都沒有任何跟NCC現在的業務直接相關以及和電信產業有直接相關的 謝謝好 那另外一個我還是要再提醒一下當然這是給你做一個功課NCC它本來是一個監督"},{"start":6352.623,"end":6376.114,"text":"管理單位這不是研究單位囉所以在這個部分我比較納悶要聽聽你的意見也就是中天撤照的部分他一個是監督一個是管理但是撤照是一個事關重大言論自由的部分你對這件事情請你簡單回答你有什麼看法"},{"start":6377.639,"end":6392.347,"text":"好非常謝謝委員提出這個這麼關鍵的問題那我自己也必須要承認在接到這個任務之前我原來只是一個一般的民眾所以呢以我的看法跟想法在想這件事情的時候我當時"},{"start":6394.045,"end":6406.417,"text":"一接到這個工作之後我就很仔細的把所有的公開資訊當中有關於中天案的細節過程仔細的研究了而且看了所有的報告我有兩點的發現第一點就是說"},{"start":6409.758,"end":6436.802,"text":"我有注意到整个社会大众对于中天案引起的社会大众的普遍的这些不满意或者是有一些对于这个案件的一些资讯那我觉得这个案件如果以我在现在目前来看的话我会觉得它是当时是依法不予换照那当年这个法律当时定的目的应该是很清楚的"},{"start":6437.512,"end":6459.343,"text":"我想這樣啦因為我時間也有限啦特別我要提醒你監督跟管理跟撤照這是兩三者之間當然有關係但是你要知道社會大眾對於這些是非常重視的所以希望有機會你如果當了主委以後"},{"start":6460.063,"end":6489.197,"text":"不要前車之間再換這個要特別注意最後一個我再請教你現在NCC已經在這快一年的情況之下他的檢舉案件喔社會亂象以及檢舉案件將近600件請問我們主委提名人你如果通過了任命以後你有什麼做法簡單回答好"},{"start":6490.816,"end":6518.398,"text":"我的做法就是會讓NC的做回符合社會的期待然後積極把它完成好 那個蔣提名我還是希望本黨一向是理性 務實 科學根據科學 根據非常務實的東西我們會做最後的一個評判我也希望在這裡祝福你有一個好的投票的結果但是希望站在這裡的時候守出"},{"start":6520.124,"end":6547.603,"text":"講出的任何一個承諾我希望有朝一日你要去實踐好不好好謝謝林國成委員發言完畢現在請羅廷維委員發言好謝謝主席有請講被提名人請被提名人陳被提名人要11點嘛對不對"},{"start":6549.274,"end":6576.702,"text":"就整個早上按照順序講被提名人大家發言完畢之後再看是要直接接上去還是到下午好 謝謝主席好 委員長好 今天聯席會審查行政院送來的NCC相關的被提名人那首先要恭喜兩位被提名人那剛剛也在台底下我也有聽那我想NCC身為我國憲政體系中具有獨立"},{"start":6577.802,"end":6596.871,"text":"非常重要的一個機關 肩負非常重要的一個任務我想其職權範圍從通訊傳播 設備 系統 審驗到整個廣播的電視頻道的一個上下架都與全民的資訊接收權是有產業的息息相關"},{"start":6598.012,"end":6623.613,"text":"那隨著科技跟媒體的快速變遷NCC的角色更為重要我想在現在又面對著數位轉型AI內容的一個深層網路中立性的一個維護以及防制假訊息跟網路安全的一個威脅來做一個挑戰社會對NCC的一個專業公正效率是寄予眾望那也要跟獎盃提名人特別分享"},{"start":6624.494,"end":6653.145,"text":"我今天早上才跟青年国教行动联盟一起召开一个记者会那我们在讨论的是媒体试读媒体试读我们可以看到不管是社群平台或者是网路的相关的一些新闻资讯很多的一些甚至是报道未经查证甚至是加工那有施工证甚至有媒体直接运用AI生成的影片"},{"start":6654.145,"end":6675.644,"text":"照片來做成新聞後續還補充說這個相關的資訊我已經查證我想這些都對於現階段我們看到的一些媒體生成的內容還有所謂的媒體試讀以及網路假訊息這些都是我們特別重視的我也在那場記者會說到"},{"start":6677.765,"end":6697.361,"text":"增加媒体试读全民来做一个认同重视这不仅仅是让青年发展有逻辑思维判读更多元的一个观点那更希望能够将假讯息诈骗讯息能够隔绝跟我们的人民"},{"start":6698.081,"end":6723.471,"text":"那我们更希望在这样子一个NCC的独立性透明度有极高的一个期待也希望不要有政治的干扰还有甚至是行政的一个依附如何让决策的过程能够更开放能够更自我的检验也希望这是被提名人应该要努力的一个方向所以首先我想先请问一下蒋先生被提名人"},{"start":6724.591,"end":6734.037,"text":"社會上現在對於NCC的信任度是不夠的可以說是非常不夠所以NCC也被戲稱是張CC你認為關鍵的問題在哪裡"},{"start":6740.15,"end":6766.718,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那任何的一個機構當他的信任被破壞的話其實往往需要多年才能夠修補那過去呢NCC由於有好幾宗的訴訟案件以及呢在過去的一些裁處案件上當中呢造成了一些社會的跟社會的期待是不相符的那我很期待我希望我自己能夠以一個將來一個開明務實的主委來自居"},{"start":6767.398,"end":6785.069,"text":"所以很希望將來呢能夠針對這些過去NCC的這些過往的案件當中呢能夠逐一的去檢視那能夠做一個符合社會期待這樣的一個公務機關 謝謝那你能不能另外說明一下你覺得NCC啊怎麼看待它的獨立性"},{"start":6786.352,"end":6808.807,"text":"是我個人還是說這個NCC你個人怎麼看待好的NCC是一個依法行政的一個獨立機關那換句話說它必須要維持形象上的中立它才能夠執行針對廣播電信傳播通訊等等這些業務上面能夠讓普遍的人民因為這些新聞資訊的訊息而能夠培養他們的對這個社會的認識"},{"start":6810.968,"end":6837.265,"text":"那當然NCC的工作除了說去監管之外呢NCC需要花很多的時間去體察民意去了解到現在目前的社會的普遍的社會期待是什麼那讓這個社會的期待和NCC的作為的最接近這應該是我將來做的應該這樣子我更直接的問你所以你可以承諾你會以民意為優先並且不會有任何政治的干擾"},{"start":6838.146,"end":6860.925,"text":"不會接受任何政治的牽涉當然我剛就已經在前面的委員就跟他們說過了各位都是為民喉舌所以每位立法委員其實對於民意的熟悉都很清楚這對我來說你們都是我的老師所以我很希望能夠從你們當中看到這個民意的期待然後我也期待能夠做得更好謝謝"},{"start":6862.426,"end":6888.601,"text":"那你的學術背景主要是集中在人工智慧那資訊安全跟醫療數據的一個分析這些領域確實跟資訊通訊的技術是有關的但是我認為NCC涉及的不只是技術也包括媒體的內容公平競爭言論自由等價值議題想請問你如何看待技術治理與言論自由兩者之間的界限好非常謝謝委員提這個這麼重要的問題"},{"start":6889.693,"end":6903.808,"text":"沒有錯NCC基本上依法是做監管但是它不去做內容的實質審查反而是去鼓勵讓我們的媒體去做自行的自律那換句話說呢"},{"start":6905.37,"end":6929.416,"text":"技術剛剛委員提到的技術部分是很好的將來的AI的技術或者是將來的生成式AI的技術將來可能也許是能夠被媒體所用例如我們都知道所有的技術是中性的它不具有任何政治色彩用得好它能夠讓這樣子一個產業變得好那用得壞就可能就能夠對這個產業產生破壞"},{"start":6931.636,"end":6946.421,"text":"所以我們希望將來能夠有這個NCC能夠有這個角色能夠當將來的一個新世代的NCC同時也對科技的擁抱希望能夠科技把這些內容產業做得更好"},{"start":6946.801,"end":6963.264,"text":"另外我想問你你作為如果未來擔任這個機關最重要的一個單位我們在審查任何的媒體相關的生成內容的時候所發現到有一些問題你看我剛剛有說的AI生成內容"},{"start":6963.965,"end":6990.754,"text":"AI生成影片被誤用甚至它就是要使用那你覺得NCC未來一定會面對AI生成內容的時候比如說AI的主播這樣子新型態你是否支持NCC主動研議AI內容透明的標示制度比如讓民眾知道這段新聞影片畫面照片是人寫的還是AI生成的你支持嗎"},{"start":6991.643,"end":7014.826,"text":"謝謝委員的提問確實目前生成式AI已經造成了社會大眾的困擾它雖然說提供了方便性但一般民眾對於它的識別的識度如果不足的話很容易去誤導民眾所以將來也許在媒體產業上面除了自律之外除了事實查證之外我也很同意委員這次我提到了"},{"start":7015.246,"end":7033.016,"text":"對於深層次內容應該主動明確的標示能夠讓所有的閱聽人有很好的認識 謝謝 好 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷維委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言廖委員發言完畢之後休息十分鐘好 謝謝主席 麻煩邀請我們講被提名人 請被提名人"},{"start":7051.77,"end":7070.523,"text":"委員好您好這個其實我對您其實並沒有太多的認識那因為您要行使這個NCC獨立機關的職權那我可能其實我包括不知道其他三位可能副主委跟其他被提名人有沒有聽到我其實都可以預告等一下問的問題我可能針對三位都是一樣的問題我不會針對你們個人可能過去的一些行為舉止或者是學術注重提出特別的一個提問"},{"start":7077.708,"end":7097.404,"text":"那NCE這幾年被社會廣泛討論最主要的原因就是針對這個新聞媒體的監管的獨立性被認為被執政黨高度的影響那因此我會針對新聞媒體的監管提出一些問題那當然新聞媒體在西方叫第四權當然我們現在五權但其實國內也一樣習慣稱之為第四權那您對於第四權的理解"},{"start":7098.581,"end":7115.943,"text":"好的 剛才非常謝謝委員的提問我剛才在自我介紹有提到我很慶幸的在美國那時候其實是三十年前就見識到第四權其實能夠透過媒體能夠透過公共政策的辯論其實能夠讓社會上形塑成社會的價值這是我見識到而且非常重要的一個事情 謝謝"},{"start":7116.664,"end":7134.659,"text":"那您對於第四權的期待就是社會它賦予給它一個第四權這樣的一個的稱號那總是會對它有一些期待或者說你認為它應該在這個社會上面它應該有的義務是什麼所有的媒體其實呢最主要的就是公共利益也就是它對於"},{"start":7136.089,"end":7161.759,"text":"民眾的知情權的保障這個是最重要的也就是他能夠去揭露政府機關不該做的事情他能夠把一般人所願意不喜歡聽的言論他都能夠透過公平透過公開的方式呢去在特定的這個媒體上面去報導那這樣子呢就能夠促進公共利益甚至可以有讓一般的民眾去理解到更多的這些知情的意義"},{"start":7162.359,"end":7172.179,"text":"其實人啊其實每一個人一定都有他自己本身的一個立場或者是意識形態我覺得這是非常正常的那只是說有時候我們在行使一些職權的時候或者是我們在某一個"},{"start":7173.257,"end":7194.264,"text":"在我們的位置的時候我們可能要盡量的去排除我們的立場然後去盡量做到客觀或者是符合社會期待的一個職權的一個形式我相信媒體也是一樣的那其實我們都知道台灣的媒體或者是全世界的媒體其實現在光譜每一個媒體會被光譜的情況是越來越嚴重每個媒體其實本身也都有他自己的立場"},{"start":7195.945,"end":7224.408,"text":"我想不可能有一百分的媒體那為了確認這個您是否注意被獨立性不會帶著政治的任務行使職權或者是被媒體集團來操弄我相針對不同的政治光譜的各大媒體新聞媒體請您提出批判我想這個各類的媒體不只偏藍偏綠而是所有的媒體我都會可能請你簡單的論述一下您可能對於這個家媒體你對他的認識你提出你的一些批判可以嗎"},{"start":7226.072,"end":7252.147,"text":"我想我不做個案分析但是我做一般性的分析所以確實以現在回答委員的問題以現在目前國內這麼多樣性的媒體的生態當中確實有些媒體它的背後的老闆集團所以因此它會有特定的色彩它在一個民主國家的常態裡面這是應該被尊重同時被保護的這樣的一個現象所以我個人不認為說不同的政治光譜"},{"start":7253.147,"end":7268.731,"text":"導致了這些不同的媒體就應該被管理或被管制我反而認為應該要讓媒體能夠正向的看待當它能夠發聲能夠有更多元化的聲音能夠讓我們的民眾去了解到這個社會的真實的反應的話這是"},{"start":7270.672,"end":7294.127,"text":"所以主委您認為這個不同的一個立場或者是不同政治光譜的一個媒體集團它是非常的正常那您認為說不同的光譜的媒體集團回到剛剛前面的第一個問題第二個問題就是您對於第四權的理解以及社會大眾對於第四權的一個期待那它要怎麼樣子的在不同的政治光譜當中去符合它第四權一個社會對它的一個期待"},{"start":7295.908,"end":7314.114,"text":"好 非常謝謝憲法賦予我們的媒體有一個言論自由所以因此所有的人民還有我們的民眾都知道在這個言論自由的保護下面媒體它可以自由發聲它可以揭露它想要表達的事實所以在這樣子的一個"},{"start":7315.074,"end":7334.233,"text":"一个媒体的生态当中接下来媒体要做的事就是他们的自律工作了也就是他为何要报道这件事情他为什么要报道这件事情他为了得普利兹奖吗还是他为了要得金马奖或者金钟奖不是的所以应该媒体应该要把他报道这件事情他有他的意志"},{"start":7334.915,"end":7353.836,"text":"那在現在社會當中特別是民主的台灣的民主的價值的普世價值的現象當中呢這樣的聲音都應該被尊重了不管它來聲音有多小多大都應該被尊重的那也就是說新聞的自由啦新聞的自由跟我們NCC監管新聞秩序它的一個界線"},{"start":7355.39,"end":7375.129,"text":"您認為這個應該會有一個很明確的界線應該要在哪一邊謝謝謝謝委員這樣的提問他也讓我有這個機會來說明媒體的自律以及呢和NCC的應該監管的那樣的權利中間的平衡點是什麼呢中間的平衡點其實就是社會大眾的公共利益"},{"start":7375.709,"end":7394.012,"text":"也就是他今天報導這件事情如果能夠促進社會的公共利益的話他就值得被報導那NCC也沒有理由要去做他任何的監管所以是否符合公眾利益應該還蠻主觀的吧是的也就是您認為NCC應該也不會太去判斷什麼東西是符合公共利益你也很難判斷是不是"},{"start":7394.432,"end":7422.768,"text":"是確實也就是說以NCC的現況上面呢我們不去做內容的實質審查那然而呢一般的民眾對於輿論的議題呢應該是我們最那其實那我可以了解您的立場非常清楚就是原則上是高度自由的一個新聞媒體我們盡量不去做干涉那因此其實前面有人提到了那因此回到我會再有兩個小問題啦您簡單的說有或沒有就好了"},{"start":7423.268,"end":7452.318,"text":"那您認為中天被關台是否有政治力的干預有或沒有呃我覺得我很難回答這個問只有用yes和no來回答所以你也不確定有或沒有對我確定你沒有辦法確定中天關台有沒有政治力的缺對因為所有的公開資訊看起來目前已經進到司法程序了那所以能夠尊重司法的判決好沒關係那第二個就是靜電室的設立您認為是否政治力的干預"},{"start":7453.148,"end":7482.792,"text":"好 一樣的道理靜電室的設立的過程當中這個可能就牽扯到NCC的職權了是 它雖然有完整的中間的過程當中有不斷的爭議那我個人認為現在最適合做的方式就是去做持續的監管也就是持續的觀察這個電視台的表現如果從這電視台現在目前播放出來的新聞如果都觸犯到法律的話那NCC確實應該要去做監管的動作 謝謝好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":7484.277,"end":7487.669,"text":"謝謝 好 謝謝廖千祥委員方案完畢 現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8204.522,"end":8230.111,"text":"好 我們繼續開會另外一位被提名人陳明修先生也已經到場陳明修先生是被提名人他是國家通訊傳播委員會委員並為副主任委員之被提名人以上先做報告現在請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":8240.548,"end":8260.288,"text":"主席好 請召貝提名人請貝提名人委員好貝提名人你好我想先確認一下因為您剛剛是說您是5月5號被諮詢對不對"},{"start":8262.791,"end":8286.327,"text":"是我剛才也利用了一個空檔把我那個所有的事情都卡出來了所以我把我的時間呢完全做一個正確的一個回應一個是謝謝您的提問一個是4月21號的中午另外一次呢是5月5號的下午4月21號就被問了然後5月5號下午所以4月21號你那時候沒有同意5月5號再一次跟您確認是這個意思嗎那5月5號就答應了"},{"start":8287.808,"end":8309.165,"text":"5月5號那時候我就跟 跟院長答應了好 就答應了那 因為行政院是在7月31號才把說四位名單送過來嘛5月5號到7月31號有兩個多月啦我是不知道這兩個多月是發生什麼事情可能那時候大概大罷免吧所以行政院想說看看等到大罷免結果民進黨會不會掌握國會多數再送啦但這就凸顯一個問題啦"},{"start":8310.586,"end":8334.79,"text":"就是好像行政院也不認為NCC是一個重要的機關我們在去年的時候那時候曾經有問過翁伯忠之前的代理主委他說NCC如果沒有順利組成委員會的話最嚴重的問題就是iPhone不法上市您知道這事嗎同樣的問題想跟您請教一下如果沒有NCC的話最嚴重的事情是什麼"},{"start":8336.911,"end":8353.541,"text":"NCC根據它的組織法它是負責全國的通訊跟傳播媒體的監管所以如果當沒有這樣的一個機構的話勢必我們的媒體或者是我們的所有的通訊傳播應該是會有混亂的情形會混亂所以你覺得現在蠻混亂"},{"start":8355.756,"end":8368.107,"text":"現在目前他仍然有一個質疑委員會仍然在運行當中所以也很慶幸的這段時間所以沒有委員也無所謂反正有委員會可以運行所以你的態度是什麼"},{"start":8369.176,"end":8385.771,"text":"我的態度是覺得NCC是一個國家重要的機關不是 所以你們所以這當然跟你無關啦這就突 從跟你的詢答就凸顯一個問題嘛這行政院講話就矛盾嘛跟NCC講話也都矛盾嘛一方面告訴大家講說什麼iPhone無法上市後來現在不是iPhone18也要上市"},{"start":8386.391,"end":8406.653,"text":"NCT後來又自己解釋說是因為後來有修改法規內部的法規本來就是可以修改法規所以這不是一個很困難的事然後您是4月多就被諮詢5月5號就同意了但行政院可以壓到7月底才送把名單送過來現在才開始審代表說行政院也不認為說NCT是一個重要的機關所以才會拖這麼久"},{"start":8407.754,"end":8420.011,"text":"然後您剛剛又講說其實這段時間媒體也有一個運行機制因為有諮詢委員會所以感覺上好像NCC這個委員會是可有可無啦我知道到目前為止感覺是可有可無"},{"start":8421.93,"end":8442.318,"text":"之前NCC做了一件讓大家覺得很不可思議的事情我也想問一下您的態度就是針對中天電視台中天電視台現在已經跟NCC有關係因為NCC把它關台了關台以後關台的理由是因為它被裁罰很多可是被裁罰的案件一一被打臉我們來看一下"},{"start":8443.398,"end":8460.437,"text":"這是二十六連敗最近的一次是有三個案件就是藍色標出來的包括就是討論農漁產的滯銷卡救命前養蚊滅寒還有一個什麼質疑蔡英文救硬月登革樂年遇八百萬這三個案子當時被NCC認為任由來賓辱罵官員"},{"start":8464.381,"end":8485.071,"text":"而且呢 沒有查證 所以就罰了就是你可以看 這個中天呢一審慎 二審慎 中審慎換言之呢 法院打臉的NCC當時的濫罰那 但問題是 NCC當時濫罰然後就用這個理由呢 把中天關台所以現在 我們現在電視台就少一台嘛 中天嘛"},{"start":8485.931,"end":8510.257,"text":"原因是因為中天批評政府我問一下主委其中有一個超離譜的有一個名嘴謝寒冰他在其中一個案子裡面的政論節目他說陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的主委請問一下主委這個是請問一下謝寒冰他說陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的主委這是評論"},{"start":8512.046,"end":8538.171,"text":"還是亂罵還是沒有客觀沒有查證應該是哪一個好的其實呢媒體在報導的時候他有他認定的自行權所以呢如果根據剛剛那個說法的話呢應該是說這些我們聽起來不舒服的不好聽的聲音其實也害他的言論自由所以要關台啊所以要裁罰啊以前NCC這樣就裁罰啦"},{"start":8539.724,"end":8552.116,"text":"就裁罰啦那如果你當了主委之後你可以認同過去NCC這樣的做法嗎這裡的案件如果每一個案件經過裁罰的過程當中它是都是經過合議制來討論的"},{"start":8555.375,"end":8577.236,"text":"何一致那你也是其中一員嘛我們現在是在問你的態度嘛你覺得一個名嘴批評說陳吉仲是有史以來最不適任的官員然後NCT就說你沒有做好查證工作然後說中天任由來賓辱罵政府就裁罰耶如果您是主委的話您認同這樣的態度嗎"},{"start":8578.217,"end":8597.908,"text":"好 剛剛前面幾位委員也質詢過相似的問題那我把我的想法跟大家說一下確實中天案在法律上面已經造成了社會大眾對他的NC的程序正義造成一些比例原則的質疑這是現況那我們言論自由保護的尺度就是剛 如同我剛剛的看法"},{"start":8598.388,"end":8613.058,"text":"是應該只要他敘述的出來沒有歷史性的危險沒關係 背題裡面所以你是不認同這樣的看法那我接下來繼續問因為NCC為了要保自己的面子就一直在打官司打官司花的都是人民的納稅錢訴訟費訴訟費非常高只要光是去年訴訟費就685萬"},{"start":8620.273,"end":8645.425,"text":"如果您當了主委之後您還會堅持去打這種官司嗎一直無止盡的花人民的納稅錢然後去打官司打到最後一直連敗嗎好 我雖然對不做假設性的問題做回答不過可以看得出來當他這些的訴訟費用是真的確實浪費人民的納稅錢的話他是應該被考慮不要去再進行不要再進行 不要再訴訟是不是所以說有機會的話我會請法治處呢"},{"start":8646.605,"end":8667.679,"text":"NCC法治署重新去研擬這些應該應對的方案謝謝那請問一下那如果因為當時NCC把中天關掉的理由其中之一是說中天違規非常多那現在顯然是NCC當時的濫罰人家已經幫平反所以他並沒有違規那麼多那如果中天現在就會打那個"},{"start":8669.02,"end":8680.152,"text":"關台無效之訴那如果到時候法院確定撤銷NCC的原處分發回NCC重新裁決的時候那個NCC被提名的態度是什麼"},{"start":8680.885,"end":8698.786,"text":"好謝謝委員的提問非常清楚就是依據司法的判決來做最後的詳細的細節的處置沒有依據司法判決是說撤銷原處分但是會叫你另為裁判那您的判決您的決定是什麼就是根據司法的判決來去做處置就是給他讓他照計序嗎"},{"start":8699.446,"end":8724.44,"text":"我們現在還不知道司法判決是什麼我的意思就是說如果說把你撤銷的話然後認為說NCC當時都濫訴嘛所以你關台的理由沒有了嘛又發給你們你們會讓他復台嗎還是根據司法的判決他最後的這個解讀謝謝葉元之委員發言完畢現在請郭育晴委員發言"},{"start":8736.679,"end":8746.529,"text":"謝謝主席有請背題名人背題名人我還是建議背題名人還是要回到座位這樣是非常"},{"start":8749.408,"end":8772.148,"text":"好繼續好先回答一下剛剛這個葉元之委員他所說的這個NCC裁罰中天那其中26件當中有16件是裁處無誤的並不是像他所說26件全輸啦那另外呢還有三件正在訴訟當中"},{"start":8773.229,"end":8790.175,"text":"那有七件敗訴但是還可以再提上訴先更正一下剛剛葉雲芝委員她所說的她這個部分應該還是沒有查清楚不能在這邊直接這麼論定好 那我想請教一下就是NCC其實應該是獨立的一個機構"},{"start":8792.156,"end":8818.44,"text":"那當然最近呢其實很多人就會開始擔心是不是有政策偏頗或者是從這個不管是從媒體的執照審查或者是節目的內容到這個電信相關的一些政策那大家擔心這NCC的這個政策的透明度是不是不足那NCC之後是不是能夠維持繼續維持超然跟公正來守護傳播自由跟促進多元這樣子的一個立法初衷啦"},{"start":8819.2,"end":8842.245,"text":"但是我們知道隨著NCC部分的委員他們任期屆滿沒有辦法召開正式的一個委員會高達了104項涉及全民利益的一些關鍵的業務現在目前是全部停擺了在這裡我想請教一下就是如果將來您擔任主委你怎麼樣來確保我剛剛所說的NCC在決策當中能夠維持獨立的運作"},{"start":8842.705,"end":8857.49,"text":"那這是很重要的一部分那再來第二就是在重大決策如果涉及的內容跟媒體的一個管制怎麼樣來建立更透明的一個決策的一個程序那是不是會支持這個會議的記錄跟投票的一個公開的這個結果"},{"start":8859.19,"end":8881.233,"text":"那再來就是現今的NCC管轄的這個範圍跟這個平台的責任的界線稍微比較模糊那您認為這個NCC應該怎麼樣來保障言論自由防制假訊息來取得中間的一個平衡那第四個就是人才的挑戰還有現在是有線電視大家都說它是這個所謂的夕陽的產業將來應該要如何管制這四個問題請教一下"},{"start":8882.594,"end":8905.274,"text":"好的 謝謝委員 那我想逐一來回答剛才您提的問題第一問題有關於現在媒體在政策方面因為確實在目前為止現在NCC已經累積到了不少的案子是因為沒有辦法把所有的委員都滿足到最低的開會人數那目前呢 NCC的正常運作是依循它的執議會"},{"start":8906.235,"end":8928.808,"text":"去做程序了所以接下來呢其實有相當多的列管的案件像剛才委員說您提到的有上百件一百零四件對在這些案件當中都會由到時候組成了正式的委員會之後呢我們就開始逐一根據這些條文去逐一去審查然後去正式的去把這些案件呢去逐一的去讓它解除列管是"},{"start":8929.528,"end":8959.148,"text":"那大家最擔心的就是我們怎麼樣維持這個政策的公平公正是那剛剛您提到的政策的公平性呢其實過往以來NCC一直是一個合意制那合意制呢也就是依法所有的這些委員呢獨立行使執行員當對所有的意見呢有不同意的時候那或者是就寫不同意意見表達書那這樣的方式呢可以才可以讓將來所有的公務機關能夠去追尋因尋到當時的決策是不是有一些瑕疵"},{"start":8959.688,"end":8974.389,"text":"所以這個是我個人會繼續支持這樣的一個做法讓政策的公平性那假訊息的部分我們怎麼樣來解決這個部分確實委員提到一個非常重要的問題所有的這些假訊息現在是國民目前最痛苦的一個指標"},{"start":8975.21,"end":8993.584,"text":"那NCC能夠在這個國家的打炸隊的當中我們主要負責的是去堵炸所以會和所有的現在我們管的電訊公司會進行這些所有的這些訊息的防治所以目前已經有每個月數千萬的簡訊已經"},{"start":8996.486,"end":9014.385,"text":"減少到大概降低到1%不到1%的這個數但是還需要再更加的加油因為其實我們要培養這個媒體仕途的一個能力那另外就是產業的人才的一個培育這個也很重要那因為今天最後時間的一個關係我相信現在大家應該都會聚焦在所謂的這個詐騙的問題"},{"start":9016.087,"end":9033.425,"text":"那 甚至在這個8月喔 其實有人就直接接到來自NCC的 自稱來自NCC的一個來電啦那透過呢 這個假傳的這個律師跟警察結果後來這個被害者呢就是接到這個電話之後 他其實被詐騙了大概將近百來萬次多"},{"start":9033.985,"end":9060.852,"text":"那我想現在因為這個詐騙非常猖獗這不是只有台灣的問題再次強調其實日本也是全世界都是詐騙的問題其實真的無所不在那我想我們當然也針對這個部分我們也成立了所謂的這個防治的一個機制這個KYC那我們怎麼樣來看待就是接著下來NCC如果跟我們這個KYC的就是跟電信管理制度的合作"},{"start":9061.252,"end":9076.155,"text":"我們要怎麼樣讓這個制度更加的完善才能夠防堵這些所謂的詐騙的行為真的變得越來越猖獗如果我是一個被詐騙的人我心裡只想三件事情第一能夠把我的錢追回來第二呢"},{"start":9076.716,"end":9104.743,"text":"能夠讓壞人被抓起來第三呢能夠讓自己重新站起來這個社會所以我們的民眾被害人他就這麼一個簡單的期待所以呢那政府呢一定要有強烈的決心讓民眾知道民眾受到假訊息傷害的時候他不是孤軍奮戰而是整個社會大家一起和國家來保護我們人民所以我會站在這樣的一個角度來思考將來NCC呢在這個國家的打炸隊當中能夠扮演更主動積極的角色"},{"start":9104.923,"end":9122.337,"text":"因為其實現在詐騙的手法延伸得非常的快這甚至已經超過這個NCC的一個傳統電信管轄的一個範圍了啦這個部分其實也建議這個NCC之後一定要補強那我給大家幾個建議就是我們要強化這個電信業者的教育訓練跟這個集合的一個機制跟頻率啦"},{"start":9122.757,"end":9142.209,"text":"那第二點就是我們成立跨部會的這個防詐整合的一個機制社福單位也要介入來處理這個所謂的弱勢族群他們被害的一些案件這個是非常非常重要就心理層面來講那另外的再來就是我們要建立平台端通報的一個封鎖甚至跟封鎖的一個機制來減少這個詐騙號碼的一個流通"},{"start":9145.791,"end":9165.927,"text":"那我想這個部分其實也是重重之重那當然因為今天時間的關係之後我們還有很多的時間希望可以再跟這個被提名的人來做更進一步的一個交流好 謝謝 以上謝謝委員好 謝謝主席謝謝郭育晴委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":9175.721,"end":9199.277,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請備提名人請備提名人委員好謝謝 我們講準主委好那個NCC之前有對境外假訊息這個干擾辦過公聽會"},{"start":9202.762,"end":9214.574,"text":"那對於傳統媒體 平面媒體我們都有管制的單位網路媒體呢 現在沒有那主委認為NCC可以怎麼管"},{"start":9216.24,"end":9239.843,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提問確實現況上面對於傳統的電子媒體我們是有法可管的網際網路因為是新興科技同時也包括像ODT等等這些新的媒體也導致現況上面NCC目前是沒有辦法用法律去做監管的"},{"start":9240.524,"end":9261.704,"text":"所以在過去的幾年來就我個人所知道NCC內部曾經提案針對網際網路的監管有提出多次的這些政策的這種草擬那現在白皮書也出來了所以NCC應該是將來朝向能夠凝聚更多的民眾的共識之後"},{"start":9262.685,"end":9273.559,"text":"能夠去做朝立法的方式那也會將傳統的媒體和新興的媒體的監管的標準一致化所以將來NCC應該有機會可以來納管"},{"start":9279.406,"end":9305.114,"text":"將來其實之前講重點我想問重點是 應該是行政院當時是希望能夠把ODT去做納管那至於網際網路現在目前的主管機關現在確實還沒有一個對啦 所以我問你就是說將來是不是有機會就是它的主管機關就是我們NCC當作我們的主管機關那才有機會去控管是"},{"start":9305.854,"end":9330.433,"text":"所以NCC的態度是將來我們希望把網際網路媒體等等的就是在NCC修法然後把它納管這樣子OK嗎應該是這樣子 應該是勇敢的去接這個工作謝謝 謝謝你很勇敢因為你如果不勇敢 老是沒有人管啊你像那個館長什麼說什麼轉手總統這件事啊這個還可以讓它繼續擴散嗎啊這個應該趕快處理掉啊"},{"start":9335.004,"end":9355.223,"text":"現在書畫部當然他是屬於可以了解網路的狀況但是他沒有直接的管理這個權利總是我們媒體部分的主要的就是NCC在主責所以這個部分比如說像這個以後我們發現發現之後NCC就可以開始來查核"},{"start":9355.723,"end":9373.072,"text":"查核之後發現他真的是對國家援手或者是散播這些謠言會對人民社會有重大的傷害就馬上把它停掉先停了再說你說要等到所有的程序等到法律的程序通通處理完了最後才來停"},{"start":9373.985,"end":9387.436,"text":"那都不會付錢啦所以我是覺得NCC應該要勇敢的把這個擔下來你看我們的那個廣播電視法有線電視法 微線電視法等等的就是說那這個我們這個是要新訂一個法還是要修哪個法"},{"start":9388.888,"end":9413.244,"text":"那根據網際網路的管理白皮書上面呢當時是希望凝聚共識那凝聚共識的方向呢最早因為還沒有目前凝聚共識之前先用分散式的立法就根據不同的議題去立法那將來如果說有可能的話其實廣電三法會和網際網路的這樣子的法的管理的法制呢變成一致化這個就是網比如說我簡單的講就廣播電視及網際網路"},{"start":9420.25,"end":9427.038,"text":"的管理規範還是什麼法就是你們會把它連在一起思考嘛對不對是 應該是朝這個方向"},{"start":9428.049,"end":9452.528,"text":"好 所以這個公聽會希望說你們可以照這個做啦希望說將來我們一定要不要說沒有這個部分沒有法可管希望NCC勇敢的擔下來也謝謝主委這一部分可以願意來承擔那最後還有一個就是那個詐團冒名詐騙用NCC的名義你們用這個建議說希望設定拒絕危險事號碼這個是你認同嗎"},{"start":9458.799,"end":9474.53,"text":"確實過去一般用比較保守的方式呢其實是用一些就是用比較不出事的方式來去做作為啦那一般的民眾呢所謂的拒絕未顯示的方式拒絕未顯示號碼其實你們這個建議我是覺得這有的沒的啦"},{"start":9484.052,"end":9501.691,"text":"你不如說 比如說電信業者你去研究他這個隱藏號碼到底是可不可行你如果說 叫民眾自己去用你這個功能到底現在是有好還是有壞有需要保持這個功能嗎"},{"start":9502.977,"end":9521.74,"text":"對 所以這是確實NCC我是建議你們就有一點具體的做法就是NCC以前我的經驗說經常就是推 推 推推都不能解決問題所以剛剛你講的我們要納管網際網路要有承擔要勇敢 這個我給你肯定我們希望說你就可以說到做到"},{"start":9522.501,"end":9549.338,"text":"那像這一個建議坦白講我告訴你這建議根本就是不好的建議嘛你要嘛就是作為有什麼作為不管是隱身號碼的功能你去研究看怎麼樣去處理或者是那個Who's Call怎麼樣跟電信業者合作來幫忙就是65歲的老人等等的自責的考量就有一些具體的做法這樣子才有用希望說NCC將來能夠每一次的作為都是一個具體的建議"},{"start":9549.938,"end":9563.928,"text":"好這樣子我們才有機會得到確實的改善謝謝委員的期待好謝謝謝謝許智傑委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席請"},{"start":9577.405,"end":9581.608,"text":"這個被提名人 蔣榮軒先生請被提名人委員好謝謝今天是交通委員會來審查這個NCC的這個被提名人那你未來是擔任主委的人選"},{"start":9602.657,"end":9627.967,"text":"那我想主委跟其他委員最大的不同是主委一定程度帶領著NCC這個國家重要的一個單位到底要走的方向是什麼所以今天本席就一個比較大的方向來救救被提名人這個被提名人應該知道就是說這個NCC過去在台灣的"},{"start":9629.205,"end":9654.566,"text":"這個媒體發展的角色裡面他扮演的其實是一個對媒體進行高度監理的這個角色所以換言之大概NCC出現的太陽或者那個樣貌都是準備要處罰人或者是要管理人大概那個角色是這樣那過去我們有他的背景所以本席沒有太覺得"},{"start":9655.208,"end":9678.204,"text":"有什麼太大問題當然過去技術面怎麼執法這些法規這另外一回事但是扮演這樣的一個形象跟角色本席沒有太大意見但是與時俱進時代已經一直在往前走所以怎麼樣從NCC怎麼樣從除了對監理這件事情"},{"start":9680.339,"end":9693.818,"text":"應該持續的關注跟重視之外對於整個台灣的這個媒體的產業怎麼讓它發展特別是現在大家都在講產業的創新主委你有什麼看法沒有"},{"start":9694.656,"end":9719.114,"text":"好 謝謝委員問了這麼好的一個問題其實我們的民眾對NCC的三大期待就是NCC能夠做一個很公平的執法者然後能夠去讓讀者能夠他的權益受到重要的守護還有最後一件事也就是剛剛您提到的就是能夠積極地為我們的媒體產業能夠去領航我個人是認為媒體本身就是應該"},{"start":9720.894,"end":9738.648,"text":"是一個產業它需要去能夠去維持下去所以媒體將來是不是能夠在一個促進健康而且多元的這樣子一個通訊傳播的環境下讓所有的媒體都能夠找到它自己的niche"},{"start":9739.178,"end":9767.394,"text":"他能夠利用新興科技他能夠去申請重要的這個獎項他能夠到國外走出海他能夠幫我們的護國神山去外面去報導讓全世界的人認識台灣的軟實力這都可以做的所以將來也希望他們能夠有在產業的創新能夠有新的想法 謝謝主委我想你剛剛提示的是大的方向也就是說你的想法裡面你的確把"},{"start":9768.622,"end":9795.138,"text":"發展當成一件事情就至少你的腦袋裡面有想過這件事情但是本席也可以在這裡就告訴你其實發展跟法規會完全的緊密綁在一起如果現在你把所有媒體NCC主管媒體的相關法規來看基本上我們都在處理 監理 限制 規定那本席舉一個例子就好了"},{"start":9795.882,"end":9824.818,"text":"譬如說我們現在大家知道這個跟過去不大一樣過去是有線電視獨霸的時代而且我們也都知道市場的現況是有線電視在每一個區域它都是壟斷型的存在我說過去啦但是我們也都從具體統計數字裡面看到有線電視的戶數正在逐年下跌那本席依照市場的現況我來分析這個下跌的趨勢恐怕還沒到盡頭"},{"start":9825.967,"end":9850.481,"text":"它會持續下跌 那為什麼會持續下跌因為很簡單 收視習慣的改變大家開始透過不同的載具 然後OTT的盛行所以大家已經不再去接受傳統像有線電視裡面幫我規定好時間 規定好頻譜要在什麼頻道 什麼時間 看什麼節目現在收視習慣已經完全改變了"},{"start":9851.081,"end":9877.308,"text":"甚至像我們這種我也不算是年輕人但我已經很久很久沒有打開有線電視雖然我也有裝但我已經很久沒有打開它了所以我要看體育頻道我就直接在譬如說我們棒球來講我就直接買CPBL TV我就直接看了我隨選然後我還可以回顧所以這個都是收視習慣所以你看有線電視的數量 戶數正在逐年下紅那過去"},{"start":9878.325,"end":9897.007,"text":"我們現在叫做差別管制什麼意思呢我們對OTT我們在境外對境外我們其實是毫無規定的幾乎讓大家自由任意而為之但我們對有線電視我們是高度的監理管制那我講過時代背景是因為當時他壟斷"},{"start":9899.526,"end":9928.975,"text":"幾乎你沒有其他的選擇所以當時我們一定要政府不高度管制不行從要多少錢我們也要審查從他的他裡面的製播裡面要多少百分比是要國產自製節目這個法規在交通委員會過去十年大家花很長的時間在限制這個媒體怪獸但是這個怪獸看起來已經從兇猛的這個恐龍已經快變成小白兔了主委"},{"start":9930.308,"end":9953.587,"text":"對於這個差別管制的這個狀況 你有沒有去想過大概戶數降到多少啊這個差別管制 您就會提出對他的檢討你有沒有想過這個問題 或者到什麼樣的狀態你認為他已經不再是巨獸了你應該把這個差別管制啊 否則這個在經營上他一定先天不利嘛"},{"start":9956.072,"end":9978.302,"text":"謝謝委員的這個提問確實在目前NCC的很多的法規其實需要與時俱進有線電視由過去的壟斷而且過去握有主要的一個播放的權利到現在已經一般來講都已經進到網路了現況上面我們看到Cable的數量一直在減線潮"},{"start":9980.202,"end":9992.219,"text":"我個人也不樂觀他是不是就到這個地方已經到探底了一般來講我們台灣還是進入高齡化社會中其實還是有一些家中阿公阿嬤"},{"start":9994.626,"end":10023.866,"text":"對 沒有錯他就習慣在看那個老人家習慣那我剛剛給你提示了我的年紀也不是年輕人但連我都已經開始進入了OTT的時代所以表示什麼你剛剛講收視習慣的老人家他一定會隨著年齡他的逝去所以呢可能這個數字還會往下跌所以本席要問你的是你覺得大概到什麼時候我們NCC就可以開始檢討這個差別管制因為你的差別管制會加速了他的滅亡"},{"start":10025.047,"end":10036.626,"text":"如果你不想讓他完全Cable完全不存在你也覺得他是他是眾多消費選擇之一的話那可能你在這個管制上面的問題就要面對"},{"start":10037.426,"end":10061.691,"text":"是 沒有錯我雖然沒有一個數字能夠明確地回答委員但是我們可以看得到有線電視它在目前四維的情況之下它仍然有一個連接社群 社區它甚至於少量所謂的小眾的媒體的功能換句話說 將來比較嚴肅的看法 看待的話也許是該開始去監測跟檢討的時候可以到了"},{"start":10062.051,"end":10076.706,"text":"好 本席只是提醒你啦因為我覺得主管機關應該要有未雨綢繆因為有一天換他會變成弱勢就有一天啦我預測他有一天會變成這樣子所以除非你說讓Cable就在市場消失否則"},{"start":10078.501,"end":10095.711,"text":"這個產業的競爭它是相對因為當它變很小又被差別管制的時候這個其實在產業競爭的發展的公平性上就會面對挑戰所以主委這個可能要早早來思考這個問題謝謝委員指教好 謝謝蔡啟昌委員發言完畢現在請吳麗華委員發言"},{"start":10118.181,"end":10123.745,"text":"謝謝主席有請NCC被提名人請被提名人對蔣榮軒主委"},{"start":10132.901,"end":10157.256,"text":"主委好 主委好我在之前我們有一個叫智慧國家方案這個方案是2021到2025也就是今年他特別提到這個目標是希望達到第一個國民基本寬頻上網權還有寬頻普及率要達到百分百"},{"start":10157.896,"end":10168.691,"text":"那GBPS的網路的覆蓋率呢要大幅提升那想要先請教您您覺得目前的達成率如何"},{"start":10170.267,"end":10198.301,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個提問當我被推薦為委員之後那時候北京人就開始很認真地去看目前我們國家的數位落差現在的情況不瞞您說確實台灣的偏鄉仍然存在著一些所謂的數位落差除了教育部有DOC中心然後還有一些偏鄉的政府有提供一些補助之外其實確定還是有一些鄉鎮"},{"start":10199.562,"end":10207.112,"text":"没有一家三大超商的那没有一家7-11的那些地方呢其实国民的网络覆盖率其实确实是低的"},{"start":10207.62,"end":10236.54,"text":"所以就是没有达成这个目标但至少要是个愿景那您接任之后你会设定什么样的目标谢谢委员的问题我刚才在最早稍早的时候在自我介绍时有提到说其实能够普及公平的一个网络环境然后能够让偏乡还有弱势的社群当中能够让它的宽平建设还有价格合理化"},{"start":10237.082,"end":10237.529,"text":"也就是让"},{"start":10239.722,"end":10267.096,"text":"網路的價格不會變成一個它無法支付的一個障礙這樣子的話呢就能夠縮小全民的數位落差我想這是一個做法 謝謝我希望未來你能夠設定一個目標那也希望有一個期程讓我們可以知道那我其實我的想法是這樣很謝謝主委您被提名的人好像也很清楚我是來自邊鄉我的看法是這樣就是有電的地方"},{"start":10267.896,"end":10296.549,"text":"我們也希望水自來水可以到那通訊也可以到網路都可以到這是我們的理想的狀況因為其實台灣並不大雖然多山但是我想很多都是可以克服的但是您剛剛有提到就是經濟規模一個經濟的誘因因素就是變成我們偏鄉要建置寬頻或者接取這些寬頻的這個基礎建設它很大的一個障礙"},{"start":10297.629,"end":10318.93,"text":"那我舉個例子來講其實兩三年前我也有承諾其實有些地方並不偏僻就是公路可以到達像是高雄市有一個桃園區它最後的那幾個地方那幾個里其實在兩三年前其實連有線電視都到達不了"},{"start":10321.753,"end":10345.091,"text":"所以後來呢我們NCC有承諾說會動用一個叫做有限的一個基金那希望說可以去幫他接過去可是時至今日其實還是很多部落沒有那最主要的原因我們看這個地圖其實黃色的線是主要道路"},{"start":10346.178,"end":10365.138,"text":"那從衛星地圖上可以看到房子很多的地方然後又鄰近主要道路是有的可是呢它只要沒有鄰近道路他們就接不到有線電視所以這個部分主委您怎麼看好 謝謝您提到這樣的一個想法"},{"start":10366.072,"end":10393.995,"text":"刚才除了说您提到说过去NCC是利用基金去协助之外呢我个人有一个今天呢很大胆的想法就是我认为应该要定定一个企业的社会责任的指标我们都听过CSR我们也知道大公司它会希望能够对社会有一些回馈那如果在这样子一个有奖励诱因的前提之下也许"},{"start":10395.049,"end":10417.471,"text":"有限電視公司或者CAP公司他會願意把企業的社會責任當作他的一個工作那謝謝主委我聽到這個很振奮希望未來這個部分你如何跟有限電視業者一起來促成這個社會責任好嗎那我希望只要有地方有居民提出這樣的需求我們NCC都可以成為一個平台來協助疏通可以嗎"},{"start":10418.672,"end":10445.605,"text":"那其實我也看到速發部他有一個去年113年的數位禁用調查報告那我們從這個當中其實可以很清楚的看到如果分山地原鄉平地的原鄉跟非住民原鄉鄉鎮他會因為過往的架設率會造成一些數位禁用的一個差距也就是說如果以我們看喔網路掛號或數位影音編輯"},{"start":10447.088,"end":10469.495,"text":"其實平地的原住民鄉他還高於非原住民鄉因為他很需要因為他遠他特別需要透過網路去做網路掛號預約門診他特別需要利用這些網路去做一些數位的一個工作所以看起來其實對偏鄉來講他是更需要"},{"start":10470.015,"end":10481.237,"text":"可是就是因為山地原住民鄉鎮他就是因為他的一些基礎工程造成了他沒有辦法使用所以這個部分我們也希望主委未來您會注意"},{"start":10483.305,"end":10504.155,"text":"網路的禁用權是公民的基本權利我希望就是山地原住民鄉鎮這些的基礎工程都能夠來處理那另外一個我就是關心災害發生的時候的通訊我們來看一下如果以今年的0728這個颱風常常都有而且未來會越來越頻繁因為氣候變遷的關係它就會斷路停電"},{"start":10507.637,"end":10520.541,"text":"通常啦 都是先路會斷掉然後呢 電就斷掉通訊就斷掉那有時候會很多天我也覺得不可思議以這個九月這個畫家煞為例這個畫家煞颱風"},{"start":10523.562,"end":10545.68,"text":"造成我們都在關注花蓮光復鄉馬太安 煙色湖的時候其實在另外一邊 海端鄉他們最後的那幾個部落像立道或者是霧路竟然三天之後他們斷訊的消息才傳送出來斷路的消息才傳送出來"},{"start":10546.434,"end":10558.482,"text":"那是因為什麼呢剛好有廠商困在裡面他有衛星電話所以我想請問一下主委你覺得這個衛星電話是不是應該每個原廂都要來配置啊"},{"start":10560.7,"end":10577.969,"text":"謝謝您的提問就是如同剛才前面所提到的災害發生的時候能夠確保通訊不中斷能夠讓我們的基地台恢復盡快的完成這應該是NCC該做的事情我希望主委未來也要注意所以這邊有一個就是13個縣市"},{"start":10580.15,"end":10608.544,"text":"議程災害孤島地區有186處所以我想說給主委一個功課這是內政部消防署盤點的我希望根據這186處至少他們有沒有衛星電話他的網路的部件率或者是有線 顧網這一些他到底有沒有可不可以去盤這個資料因為我覺得這個要先有這樣的一個盤點資料我們才知道未來要怎麼做對不對"},{"start":10610.582,"end":10617.33,"text":"謝謝那我希望這個部分能夠加強的來建制好謝謝主委謝謝主席阿維希望給我一個兩個月內一個報告可以嗎好謝謝謝謝吳立華委員發言完畢現在請陳樹葉委員發言"},{"start":10642.244,"end":10647.263,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請NCC主委貝提名人請貝提名人"},{"start":10657.295,"end":10680.087,"text":"主委早 那我看您的這個學經歷都非常的完整也非常的優秀那也看到您的專長是在這個人工智慧那本席也很好奇就是說因為在這個看您的這個學經歷跟專長跟NCC的這個傳播跟法律似乎沒有很直接的一個關聯"},{"start":10681.388,"end":10703.46,"text":"那當然提名你來當這個NCC主委的被提名人應該也是想必要借重您的專業跟這個專才所以在這邊本席先跟你討論就是就您人工智慧這個領域來跟你做討論那我們知道其實在上個禮拜那個國安局在"},{"start":10704.693,"end":10712.909,"text":"外交及國防委會裡面的業務報告就有再次的說明就是我們台灣遭受到中共組建的這個網路民兵與民間"},{"start":10714.987,"end":10734.042,"text":"環害車役攻擊每天高達280萬次這是一個非常嚴重的狀況我們也看到我們國內很多的議題都是受到很多假訊息或者是特定的操弄跟帶風向"},{"start":10736.103,"end":10757.656,"text":"花蓮馬太安溪 煙色湖這個意外發生之後我們也在網路上有看到有人散播AI生成的假影片在帶風向就是試圖要把整個意外的責任甩鍋給中央政府就是說沒有事先做好撤離或者是相關的一個宣導"},{"start":10759.257,"end":10776.77,"text":"在AI生成的假影片確實是會影響到我們整個民眾的認知或者是輿論的方向過去其實已經很長一段時間有這樣子的現象存在可是國民黨一直都不承認也不願意面對"},{"start":10777.611,"end":10806.383,"text":"可是在他們這一次的國民黨的這個黨主席的選舉他們自己受害了他們才願意去承認跟面對這樣子的一個現象像在他們國民黨主席的投票是18日那在這個投票日之前他們國民黨這個你可以說是這個戰鬥藍正生藍的這個趙少康他也在記者會裡面他有說來自這個TikTok和YouTube的影片內容高度支持特定的候選人"},{"start":10806.983,"end":10834.595,"text":"而且這個註冊時間是在國民黨啟動黨主席選舉的一個前夕然後他在這個記者會裡面也強調他說政告大陸當局不要介入國民黨主席的選舉所以連國民黨他現在也承認了就是他們藍營的人士也承認了就是面對來自中國的這種這個網路的一個訊息的介入跟影響是非常的直接跟明顯的"},{"start":10836.036,"end":10862.908,"text":"所以對於這個境外的假帳號還有AI變照的影片結合演算法確實是影響了我們的社會的認知跟操縱的輿論這是確實存在而且目前這種現象越來越嚴重所以在面對這樣子的一個狀況就是我不曉得說以我們主委的一個專業未來你會怎樣來有什麼想法或應對的"},{"start":10864.048,"end":10879.155,"text":"好,谢谢委员的提问,确实我们现在目前的每天在不管是GSN也好,或者是网路上面,以我以前每天当上国家南部网络中心主任,我们是每天都有几百万的骇客在攻击的。"},{"start":10879.335,"end":10907.17,"text":"所以那個是完全沒有辦法去用想像中的想像出來的那針對像這些的就像我們講是一個身體最簡單的道理你要讓你身體變成強壯你才不怕這些的攻擊那現在現況上面呢確實對於不管是網路上面的假訊息假的影片還有說這些演算法如果按照科技的角度來講所有演算法和這些"},{"start":10908.01,"end":10934.639,"text":"技術它是中性的它的立場其實是沒有中立場的那是被用的人它造成了一些的危害所以換句話說現在目前在對於境外的主角上面已經有很早了用AI來賭AI用AI來抓假訊息用AI來針對抓假的影片所以這些的做法現在都是用已經有不少的演算法在進行了"},{"start":10935.299,"end":10956.978,"text":"那我个人很庆幸的在自己的专长上面刚好也是资讯科技还有AI专长如果有机会进到NCC服务的话我就应该会把这个当作是将日后我们的重点希望NCC能够与时近距近的把法规面去做进程之外呢我们也希望NCC能够更快速的"},{"start":10957.678,"end":10978.929,"text":"协助例如说像新闻媒体做查证的工作自动去查证验证假讯息这些的检验等等希望这些都能够用科技的方式来做到谢谢是好很高兴听到主委这样子的一个回答然后也让我们对主委未来带领NCC有很高的一个期待那我们知道就是说"},{"start":10979.609,"end":11000.458,"text":"現在科技的一個運用就是這個Meta透過這個演算法我覺得對於整個社會真的是影響非常的嚴重因為我們看到事實上在美國他也曾經大規模起訴Meta因為他們揭露說這個臉書還有這個IG的一個演算法把兒童推入有害的這個內容就是只要我們點閱了這個"},{"start":11002.559,"end":11021.116,"text":"觀看的影片或相關的一個議題之後可能Meta就是會透過演算法來推給相關的一個內容所以我們也就是說擔心就是說透過境外透過這樣子的一些影片就是來影響我們的輿論之後然後把相關的一些"},{"start":11022.037,"end":11050.288,"text":"假的影片或訊息在推播給我們的百姓跟鄉親所以我覺得這個AI的一個主角真的是非常的重要我們也希望就是說未來在於整個傳播媒體上我們NCC有這個責任就是說要協助這個廣電媒體來防止這個假訊息剛剛主委也有做一個明確的一個回答了所以在這部分我們也希望就是說"},{"start":11051.908,"end":11077.62,"text":"主委真的上任之後我們也希望我們在這邊當然要呼籲這個在野黨要來支持畢竟NCC是獨立的一個機關一個單位那我們也希望就是說賦予NCC這樣的一個責任那未來能夠發揮您的專長來協助就是廣電媒體防止這個假訊息協助我們這個社會的一個安定非常非常感謝委員的建議謝謝您"},{"start":11081.469,"end":11106.398,"text":"謝謝陳樹葉委員發言完畢 現在請林怡瑾委員發言謝主席 有請蔣主委被提名人請被提名人委員好"},{"start":11108.278,"end":11120.603,"text":"貝提曼好 紐約時報控告這個OpenAI侵權案 我想國際矚目那同時也成為我國探討媒體溢價法 這個過程中那國內媒體高度矚目的重點"},{"start":11121.431,"end":11149.452,"text":"那人工智慧AI是您的專長之一所以首先想要請教台灣該如何面對AI時代下的侵權爭議那尤其是你將任NCC的主委所以要特別請教您就是媒體在AI時代下的這個權力保障具體而言就是說你是否支持新聞有價那如果你支持新聞有價那在NCC的角度那該如何協助國內媒體因應AI的發展"},{"start":11150.954,"end":11168.059,"text":"謝謝委員的提問所有的媒體都是由記者女士先生們慢慢地把它這個字一個字一個字刻出來的所以換句話說呢當他們報導新聞的時候被這一些所謂的大型的媒體拒售瞬間用搜尋引擎就"},{"start":11169.019,"end":11191.076,"text":"拿去他们当作自己的这样子的侵犯自治财产权这样的做法呢确实现在在全世界大家都注意到了那国内呢也针对这样的议题呢由社会发展部还有由NCC以及其他的甚至于公平会他们都目前现在正在讨论当中虽然他们并没有一个一致的共识到目前为止"},{"start":11191.616,"end":11215.118,"text":"但是可以看得出來現況上面假如我們國內很清楚的讓全民的共識已經達到這個地步的話這個時候我們的政府就可以站出來很勇敢的跟這些大型的媒體說當你日後在台灣你要去做什麼樣的檢索的話你應該要採取什麼樣的作為"},{"start":11215.859,"end":11240.03,"text":"那這樣子的話呢我相信應該是目前所謂的侵權的爭議上面可以的一個做法 謝謝雖然剛剛我們先探討AI時代的問題喔那不過實際上就連舊網路時代下Google啦 Meta這種跨國平台跟媒體間的那種權利義務的關係都還沒有釐清喔就從加拿大跟澳洲推動媒體溢價法的例子就可以知道這是一場團體戰"},{"start":11241.491,"end":11261.524,"text":"那從媒體到政府各部門必須要做好因應平台措施的準備那在立法後也需要長期的密切合作因為我們可以想見就發生在加拿大跟澳洲這種新聞內容招平台下架的案例必定也會出現在通過假設通過媒體議價法的台灣"},{"start":11262.705,"end":11281.045,"text":"那好 所以我們不能放任媒體在打獨鬥所以立法的同時我們也要提出因應平台抵制的這個解方所以想請教你如果你成為主委是否會繼續來推媒體議價法或者你認為台灣怎麼因應跨國平台這個抵制的措施好"},{"start":11281.966,"end":11303.127,"text":"現況上面我們其實很清楚就是所謂的凝聚社會的共識也就是有民意基礎的時候當有民意基礎的時候其實這時候我們的主管機關就應該要很明確的去跟這些跨國民進來去溝通例如我們的社會認同你這些Meta來台灣但是你應該有明確的責任"},{"start":11303.968,"end":11322.829,"text":"有負責任的落地那這些負責任的落地呢就是我們不會用不當的方式去干擾你或干預你的這些商業行為但是你必須尊重在台灣這樣子的一個有主權的國家我們的媒體應該要有現有的這樣子的一個支持所以"},{"start":11324.649,"end":11349.061,"text":"因為 速發部啦 速發部對於媒體溢價法 他認為雖然利益良善 可是他覺得執行上有自愛難行的地方那所以速發部是希望轉成 發展成台灣優質媒體共同分潤平台那可是本席認為 你如果要搞這種平台 那我覺得你要先必須解決三個問題第一個就是說 你捐款"},{"start":11350.126,"end":11366.407,"text":"是不具備強制力 那所以他怎麼樣確保財源的穩定 第二他要求民眾要訂閱那是否就是你將原先跨國數位平台的這些該承擔的這個成本跟責任轉嫁到人民身上的問題嘛 好"},{"start":11367.008,"end":11391.18,"text":"那第三如果最終我們還是必須要透過議價跟基金的豁免機制來達成平台這個軍政的誘因那麼我們就會回歸到議價跟基金的制度該如何設計的問題所以必須提出說如果平台就直接撤掉所有台灣的新聞內容假設又或者直接撤出台灣的市場那我們要怎麼樣因應"},{"start":11393.305,"end":11410.126,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員的提議其實我相信速發部現在從新的速發部的部長現在目前最新的分論制的平台現在目前就我所知是還在溝通當中還在演繹對我覺得主管機關不管是數位發展部或者NCC我們應該有個明確的開明態度"},{"start":11412.948,"end":11431.434,"text":"讓這些國外的大型的媒體或者大型的這些數位平台讓他們不會覺得台灣是一個反傷的國家之外呢也讓他們理解到說落地的責任在哪裡那我認為落地的責任可以讓企業或者這種大型企業他們去思考到"},{"start":11431.954,"end":11449.557,"text":"他對企業社會的責任在哪裡而非只是在這邊把所有該拿到的資源把它拿走那我認為用這種方式跟大型的數位平台應該是有溝通的空間 謝謝好 那我再來再跟您請教就是廣播電視法的改革的問題"},{"start":11450.658,"end":11473.897,"text":"因為2024年總統立委大選的時候有特定的候選人遭質疑就是說因為他身兼新聞媒體的董事長的職務所以我們恐怕這個會讓這個新聞媒體失去報導大選的公正性所以因此為了杜絕這種掌握政治權利然後又有意角逐這個公職者那他會藉由來這個操控媒體的這個狀況來操作輿情"},{"start":11475.879,"end":11492.721,"text":"所以那時候本席有提案修正廣播電視法的第五條之一規定政黨黨務工作人員跟政務人員跟選任公職人員跟登記參選公職者都不得投資廣播電視事業或任廣播電視事業董事或董董"},{"start":11493.542,"end":11512.969,"text":"那我那時候提的時候在野黨對本席這個大家撻伐可是你現在我們來看喔這個黨狗害媒啊這個世紀大醜聞爆發我們又再一次發現其實政治人物又或者意圖掌握政治權權利者他跟媒體的關係真的是必須要被嚴謹規範喔"},{"start":11514.449,"end":11525.042,"text":"那所以我要請教貝提名人 你是否支持我本席的這個修法方向那在你的未來的領導下 這個廣播電視法你又想要有怎麼樣的修正革新"},{"start":11525.95,"end":11548.668,"text":"好,谢谢委员的提案,由于我并没有参与广播电视法第五条的修正案,非常谢谢你提这个要讲,我觉得不管现在的党政军的条款,后来将来的日后对于媒体的管制等等,我认为透明,让所有的监督都有透明的管道可循,那这个是应该最好的方式了。"},{"start":11549.749,"end":11562.417,"text":"好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席謝謝林益錦委員發言完畢現在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請徐護魁委員發言主席有請我們蔣備提名人"},{"start":11583.28,"end":11600.227,"text":"委員好背題面人好我知道背題面人都一向在學校教書今天到立法院會不會緊張會的我想我們還是一樣這個用最最好的一個應答的態度來面對所有委員的一個質詢"},{"start":11601.823,"end":11628.735,"text":"那您有特別提到NCC應該超然與政治跟商業勢力確保公共利益跟一個通訊的權益我想這一點我非常的認同但是回歸專業不只是口號尤其我們現在社會期待看到NCC不再是一個被動的一個裁法的一個機關而是能夠主動引導產業確保民眾權益的一個建立機關我想貝提你們贊成這樣的一個說法嗎"},{"start":11629.782,"end":11644.853,"text":"是的但是我們目前全民最關心的一個議題就是詐騙的這個問題那當然NCC在這個防詐工作裡面負責一個通訊端一個跟一個媒體端的一個防詐的一個功能所以包含"},{"start":11646.214,"end":11662.199,"text":"簡訊的部分第四台的廣告查核甚至目前風起雲湧的這個網路詐騙廣告的下架部分但是很可惜民眾對於NCC的作為似乎感受不到我們有這樣的一個積極的一個作為那這個被提名有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":11662.97,"end":11675.944,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提議確實現在一般來民眾來講普遍痛苦指數最高的就是有不斷的就是像是鋪天蓋地似的這麼多的詐騙的訊息詐騙的簡訊那NCC過往其實也用"},{"start":11680.568,"end":11699.864,"text":"賭詐的方式就是去希望強制性的三大媒體去用No Your Customer的方式去清楚的把所有的簡訊的訊息去做不當的去做攔截現在現況上面就我所知道已經有很好的改善的措施了將來其實很簡單的就是"},{"start":11702.046,"end":11729.569,"text":"慢慢的如果能夠讓三大電訊或者其他的電訊公司去透過這樣子的機制去更強制去讓更多的媒體對不起 讓電信公司它了解到它應該有這個社會的責任去做這件事情的話那這樣子再透過監督的方式那NCC可以透過監督的方式去了解他們是不是真的做到了這樣子的防制詐騙的工作"},{"start":11730.397,"end":11746.229,"text":"尤其我們自己從基層出來很多的長輩也好年輕人也好最近有被詐騙的案件真的還是層出不窮那有些老人家這個努力的辛苦工作一輩子這個積蓄全部都被騙了這欲哭無淚所以我想這個詐騙的工作"},{"start":11747.51,"end":11773.068,"text":"絕對不是只有NCC要負責任未來您尤其您這個未來你上任之後也有可能是擔任主委的工作怎麼樣在這樣的一個既有架構裡面強化跟警政署也好 監管也好甚至速發布的一個協作機制甚至未來能夠跨部會整合做一個通訊詐騙應變中心甚至是 甚至是橫向的一個通報機制我想"},{"start":11774.389,"end":11798.457,"text":"被提名的你是不是支持未來做這樣一個跨平台防詐廣告的一個聯合集合的一個機制當然非常謝謝委員的提議這是一個很好的構想那未來如果你上任之後這樣會很快的推動這樣的一個機制嗎一定會會啦那尤其現在網路包含LINE也好FB也好YT也好這些平台雖然在台灣經營但是因為總公司都在外國"},{"start":11800.305,"end":11827.111,"text":"很多人都會覺得他們在規避我們的一個監理那未來您上任之後是不是主張未來大型平台應該在台灣設立一個法尊的一個窗口甚至有一個即時下架的一個回報機制是的 委員提到問題其實也就是我在回應黨團的意見上非常清楚地表達了就是我們針對這種境外的大型的數位平台由於它並不在台灣可是呢 它的關鍵就是"},{"start":11828.328,"end":11856.815,"text":"主管機關可以要求他負責任的落地他們不能只是來這邊賺錢都不用負責任您說得很好不僅是讓他在這個地方賺錢他應該要對這個社會的責任他不但應該要有窗口他不但應該要有法尊的機制甚至於他應該要有很完整的去做追蹤將來他在這個地方的所有的這種反詐騙的這些行為那NCC如果有機會的話我們會對這件事情去做一個透明的一個"},{"start":11857.755,"end":11877.105,"text":"指標的顯示好那另外我還是要特別強調這個像我們屏東來講我們有偏鄉也有離島那過去因為我們自己在地方跑行程的時候也有很多的鄉親在反映不要說5G啦有時候甚至4G 3G都不到有的地方甚至連網路訊息都沒有網路訊號都沒有"},{"start":11877.705,"end":11902.096,"text":"那未来您上任之后针对这样部分能不能积极跟我们相关包含抒发部也好交通部也好跟电信业者能够做一个沟通平台强化这个通讯品质吗谢谢委员提案确实通讯不仅仅是救灾的生命线而且通讯是一切连续的最重要的管道那NCC过往呢既然是主管通讯的"},{"start":11903.616,"end":11931.263,"text":"我們就應該責無旁貸的在任何的情況之下確保不管是偏鄉離島或者是在平時在災害發生的時候都能夠擁有一樣的一個權利我想一樣三大電信業者也不是只有賺錢他們在重要的時候尤其像一些救災也好甚至我們一些現場的指揮中心也好應該扮演這樣行動激勵台甚至支援一個很重要的角色"},{"start":11932.003,"end":11950.865,"text":"那尤其我們偏鄉有很多的那個基地台建置不足的部分我想NCC也應該要協調全面來盤頂甚至未來面對極端氣候的挑戰不是只有你們不是只有做一個監理機關而是一個通訊韌性建設的一個推手北京人贊成嗎非常贊成 謝謝委員"},{"start":11951.946,"end":11974.738,"text":"好 我想社會期待NCC能夠回歸專業 維持獨立但是我更期待未來您組長NCC之後能夠展現積極的作為讓防詐更有效 媒體更健全 通訊更公平那我想最後請貝提敏 未來您上任之後要帶領NCC達到什麼樣的一個具體的一個目標"},{"start":11976.039,"end":11987.097,"text":"剛才我有花一點時間介紹我個人的理念那我用很短的時間內我也是像如同委員的期待一樣我們希望NCD將來是一個正直公平的一個機關讓我們的社會大眾"},{"start":11990.843,"end":12004.926,"text":"認識到這是一個可以期待的一個這樣的中立的獨立的機關我想要要化解在野黨的疑慮也是必須要您要展現他的誠意來處理好謝謝謝謝好謝謝許富奎委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言好謝謝主席那我們一樣請這個被提名人蔣榮軒"},{"start":12020.996,"end":12036.443,"text":"請備提名人委員好 講老師你好 這個一開始來請問一下這個針對一些新的技術e-sync這問題我想"},{"start":12039.304,"end":12064.785,"text":"過去也討論了非常多次eSIM卡問題討論非常多次我想包含說因為iPhone 17上市之後他們強調在全球的市場裡面主要的主推是eSIM卡但是台灣市場就是因為我們NCC過去是不開放也不支持的狀況所以說iPhone 17在台灣推出的時候它必須針對台灣有特製的Nano SIM卡的狀況所以說我要問說主委無論未來你擔任主委的話對於eSIM卡的態度"},{"start":12065.626,"end":12093.229,"text":"你們的立場怎麼樣好 謝謝我們果然科技立委問的問題就是不一樣那回答委員剛剛的問題現況上面其實我大概就是那35%的其實我個人出國就是使用ECM那所以我也認為說這個當它是科技的趨勢的話那部個組黨的話應該是NCC就應該主動的去把這樣的推動當作是它的必須要去做的事情 謝謝所以主委 對不起"},{"start":12094.811,"end":12100.27,"text":"梁老師如果未來擔任主委的話你會帶動 帶領NCC去推動這個事情嗎"},{"start":12101.756,"end":12129.207,"text":"還是說要看因為過去很多的藉口跟理由就是過去這幾年大家不斷強調不管在這邊質詢也好或在媒體上面也好大家一問說為什麼NCC不推動eSIM原因是因為可能怕詐騙怕一些有的沒有的原因但是實務上當然我們知道現在的就算是實體的SIM它實際上它還是有很多詐所謂詐騙的問題所以在這個情況之下未來如果您真的能夠順利來擔任主委的話是不是我們會往這個方向來開放不只是iPhone我想各家手機業者"},{"start":12130.563,"end":12145.314,"text":"技術上基本上都做到但是因為法規限制跟NCC過去不支持所以現在除了iPhone之外很多Android手機它的系統裡面它也沒辦法使用eSIM那我只要問說NCC的這態度如果未來您擔任主委你會不會就是往這個開放的路線來走"},{"start":12146.854,"end":12161.705,"text":"我想我會更積極的去了解現在目前這個技術和我們現在目前國內現有的法規衝突之處以及為何現在NCC針對這個eSIM卡的態度是屬於比較消極的我想我會優先去了解這件事情"},{"start":12162.225,"end":12184.005,"text":"謝謝您主委講好這個是要拜託啦因為我想這世界各國真的是對於E-SYNC的這個技術上其實應該是沒有問題的包含說防詐包含說相關的法規世界各先進國家都會做到那唯獨台灣做不到這部分我希望如果您真的能夠順利就任這部分要重新來檢討那再來當然針對很多我們這個委員關心的說中天案的問題"},{"start":12185.126,"end":12193.33,"text":"我想過去在這個中天電視台被關台這個事情上我想先請教一下主委你認為言論標準有沒有言論自由有沒有一個標準的問題"},{"start":12197.008,"end":12218.559,"text":"好 謝偉的問題言論自由是憲法保障的基本權利換句話說不管言論自由新聞自由等等都是受國家法律保障的那言論自由呢只有在我剛剛前面介紹到只有會產生立即性而且明顯的危險的時候例如說煽動"},{"start":12221.04,"end":12241.111,"text":"這個暴力或者是其他的事情的話它才是維穩到處理到那個底線不然的話呢其實言論自由它的整體上面的管控是很是比較鬆散的 謝謝因為剛剛也都我也提到我們過去在NCC在質詢的時候也提過就是在這個中天案跟NCC之間的官司上面目前來講已經NCC啦這邊已經26敗了嘛"},{"start":12243.332,"end":12262.028,"text":"過去有很多的裁罰的標準 針對新聞事件的內容 新聞的本身NCC對中天電視 中天新聞台有些裁罰當然我們知道說 過去除了中天之外 各家新聞台不只是中天而已各家新聞台有時候的報導 有時候都會被檢舉 有時候有裁罰我想被裁罰的不會只有中天新聞台被裁罰"},{"start":12263.869,"end":12289.634,"text":"過去有這麼多的裁罰的記錄之後然後因為裁罰記錄這麼多所以過去是用這樣的方式去把這個新聞台關掉那我想問主委說問江老師說未來如果您擔任主委的話這些被撤銷的裁罰被撤銷的行政處分會不會影響到中天如果他想要重新申請回覆他電視台的這個影響他的權益您的立場是什麼"},{"start":12291.053,"end":12308.459,"text":"確實中天案引起了社會大眾廣泛的討論這也讓現在目前社會大眾會注意到它是不是真正的當年2020年的時候那個審造案的過程當中是不是有瑕疵我相信現在已經進入到一個司法程序了"},{"start":12309.119,"end":12336.562,"text":"所以呢基於尊重司法程序我會在等司法程序確認之後呢以及他的司法的見解之後呢再請NCC針對這件事情來做進一步的處置好 謝謝主委謝謝蔣老師那再來就是針對說過去的NCC委員包含是林定宇跟王維欽離開之前他們提那個正媒集團化的問題那當然認為說現在媒體多因為收入問題所以會大量去乘坐所謂政府標案容易形成這個正媒共生的問題那"},{"start":12338.243,"end":12362.84,"text":"那包含說這個蔣老師您的提名也是屬於行政院的指定來提名那未來怎麼樣確保說NCC的獨立性跟專業監督那另外會不會去主動統計並公開各機關媒體採購跟置入的預算數來強化民間的監督來避免正媒集團化跟這種正媒互相利益結構綁在一起的問題未來NCC會在這個事情上的態度是什麼"},{"start":12363.558,"end":12380.755,"text":"好的 謝謝委員的這個提問我們都知道不管是正媒共生或者是尋租等等這些最好的解決方式其實就是透明那也就是有這個機制能夠讓NCC也好或者是讓我們社會大眾"},{"start":12381.956,"end":12404.669,"text":"讓更清楚的知道這個過程當中是不是透明的包括就是政府標案也包括呢重要的這標案當中如果是經過政府標案的話他必須要載明很清楚的支持的單位那這樣子呢才能夠讓NCC做到這樣的一個獨立性的做法那我很期待有這個機會呢能夠把這個透明的機制建立起來謝謝"},{"start":12405.609,"end":12426.576,"text":"所以主委 江老師你如果擔任主委的話你會去主動去做這個事情還是要變成立法院提出來你們是被動的我要問說在政策理念上面如果您真的擔任主委這個事情你剛剛說你個人是願意支持的嘛你的心態上是支持那如果你真的接任這個位置你願不願意做這件事情主動去提這樣的法案或提這樣子的制度出來"},{"start":12431.541,"end":12441.532,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在現在請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員"},{"start":12442.353,"end":12453.502,"text":"何新淳委員不在 現在請劉淑冰委員劉淑冰委員 劉淑冰委員不在 現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在現在請張祺凱委員 張祺凱委員 張祺凱委員不在現在請煥雲委員發言"},{"start":12469.175,"end":12475.422,"text":"好謝謝昭偉那有請主委的被提名人請被提名人你好"},{"start":12486.423,"end":12515.162,"text":"主委好那我想今天您未來會擔任我們非常重要的這個機關就是有機會擔任NCC的這個主委我想為一個跟主委權責很相關的部分就是性侵的影像如果滿天飛的話那監理機關的責任到底何在那最近我想大家都有看到臺北火車站爆發不幸的性侵案有一名通緝犯把一名外景女子拉到牆邊性侵將近十分鐘"},{"start":12516.363,"end":12545.652,"text":"那我們很不幸的看到有部分電視台拿到影片後居然只有把重點部位打上馬賽克那甚至只有打眼部的就製成新聞影片那這種就是用好像擬似A片上馬賽克的方式播出性侵影片完全沒有顧慮到受害者或者是觀者的看法那造成很大的傷害那我認為這是助長性別暴力的文化"},{"start":12546.272,"end":12571.686,"text":"那我們有看到衛福部這次相當不錯他立即反映10月14號發生這個影片外傳15號就發布聲明呼籲不要再報導被害人相關資訊否則將查明嚴懲16號他的性影像處理中心兩天內就接獲14件檢舉第一時間就通知媒體及網路平台業者下架"},{"start":12572.566,"end":12600.754,"text":"那我們回來看性侵害犯罪防治法他有要求目的事業主管機關對於這種就是沒有保護到受害人相關的這個資訊的話其實會有罰款的那事實上我們在上一屆擔任立委的時候性私密影像我們有所謂的司法聯防就刑法上來講未經他人同意無故重置散佈播送等等是5年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":12601.394,"end":12630.445,"text":"是刑法的罪那當然今天我想問的是在NCC所主管的廣電媒體的製播的相關規定中其實也都有就是相關的原則包含第二點避免不宜呈現的方式不管是性騷擾性侵害等等那這個部分都應該謹慎處理畫面及聲音所以除了衛福部主管機關的性侵害犯罪防治法之外"},{"start":12630.965,"end":12657.191,"text":"NCC自己也有相關的規定又是電視新聞的主管機關那我想問的事情是那如果您當選主委的話您會做哪些事情因為這一波我們看到NCC幾乎沒有看到他有任何的聲明跟角色那如果第一個想問您有沒有注意到這件事那如果是您來擔任主委的話您會做哪些事情"},{"start":12657.991,"end":12671.716,"text":"來促成電視新聞就應該要嚴守國家的相關的法令那你會如何積極宣導檢舉的管道讓民眾跟NCC協力把違法的內容盡速移除"},{"start":12672.813,"end":12696.137,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個提問確實個人的隱私權是一個普世價值全世界人大家都重視那在這個新聞案當中我也非常的遺憾看到這個新聞的報導那現在衛福部已經在通知性影像處理中心去準備要去下架那個是針對網路但是電視新聞的主管機關是NCC沒有錯吧"},{"start":12696.417,"end":12725.399,"text":"那現況上面呢就我所知道NCC現在也開始內部有一些做一些相關處置了那目前來所有的廣播跟電視的處置方式還是要求自律為優先然後呢後面才是用法律那現況上面這個案子看起來如果有機會進到NCC我們會特別去檢討深刻來檢討這個過程當中是不是應該要政府機關主動的將這樣子的事情的傷害降到最低"},{"start":12727.423,"end":12734.562,"text":"請問講被提名人那您覺得現在這個自律機制有運作的好嗎就以這個就是北車的這個事件"},{"start":12735.795,"end":12760.436,"text":"我現在沒有辦法做個案的探討不過現在目前的通案的探討看起來我們現在目前的廣播電視傳播業當中普遍的自律機制都有做一個自己的內容事實查核以及做內部的自律這樣的工作我想你說自律他們都有事實查核應該很多民眾都不同意吧那我想自律機制運作不好的時候該怎麼辦"},{"start":12761.537,"end":12786.848,"text":"當然自律機制沒有辦法做到好的話那主管機關NCC就該用其他的他律和法律來進行自律不好的時候就是他律嘛他律就是NCC要代表我們全民的公共的利益嘛這個非常的明確這個就是公共利益就是保護受害人然後不要讓大家就是看到像性暴力的影像到處亂竄然後甚至擔心會有魔法"},{"start":12787.368,"end":12815.911,"text":"模仿的作用所以既然NCC下面已經有很明確的規範這種畫面涉及到性犯罪性暴力這些應該要謹慎處理畫面聲音避免不適宜的報導那是不是未來您可以更積極的處理這個自律機制明顯看起來不足的狀況好嗎是 應該的雖然您今天還沒有說出怎麼處理我相信您有這個誠意那請加油那您可以承諾未來會嚴加處理吧"},{"start":12816.992,"end":12820.016,"text":"一定的好OK那謝謝您好謝謝范雲委員發言完畢"},{"start":12827.099,"end":12846.972,"text":"现在继续请苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在现在请钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员不在现在请尤浩委员尤浩委员尤浩委员不在现在请鲁明哲委员鲁明哲委员鲁明哲委员不在"},{"start":12849.298,"end":12874.663,"text":"被提名人蒋榮軒先生之說明與答詢結束那蒋榮軒先生可以先行離席 謝謝那現在做一下宣告現在休息到下午1點30分休息後進行被提名人陳明修先生之說明與答詢休息"}]}},{"id":"16960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16960","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc54f5580a36c7ffd66cbf39f0e303b22e0aa126c40303dc27882e0a1377d6809f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-20T08:38:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T13:06:00+08:00","duration":16066,"影片長度":"04:27:46","委員發言時間":"08:38:14 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那麼我們就進行提案說明那每位委員發言的時間為三分鐘那麼首先我們就先請提案人賴世保委員進行提案說明謝謝主席以及各位先進那麼"},{"start":1475.26,"end":1486.188,"text":"我跟其他委員總共大概20來位委員我們有共同提案就是提有關於公立學校教職員退休等於是公教人員的"},{"start":1490.303,"end":1511.295,"text":"公立学校的教职人员他们的退休条例第37条38条以及第67条这里的修正案现在还67条67条按照现在来讲的话我们是这个要CPI要消费指数要达到"},{"start":1512.256,"end":1513.917,"text":"正負5%才來調整我把它改成3%另外一部分就是每四年檢討一次把它改成每兩年檢討一次"},{"start":1527.748,"end":1546.555,"text":"那另外一個提案呢我想另外一個提案就是所得替代率的問題啊這裡面37條38條這裡面有關於所得替代率啊這個的我們希望能夠stop here stop here那這裡面我要說明的這主要是"},{"start":1547.775,"end":1552.097,"text":"錢的問題我們都看到這裡面要砍繼續砍已經砍了7年砍了7年現在來講的話我們整個等於是砍掉的錢大概3000多億但是我們要看另外一個層面在勞保這一部分幾乎每年撥補"},{"start":1569.205,"end":1596.824,"text":"這次的任性也撥補幾百億那麼勞保到現在為止已經撥補了三千多億那麼如果把一百一十五年加進來的話大概差不多五千億上下了所以你就看到說這一邊一直減然後這一邊一直加照顧勞工的勞保我們不會反對 我們支持那可是對於我們的公教人員特別是教職人員我可以向主席報告 向主席報告"},{"start":1598.683,"end":1620.174,"text":"那個翁主席 因為我有兩個案子就給我多一點時間 好不好我有兩個案子 只這一批說明好的麻煩 因為我們今天提案的時候 麻煩代委員可以進出好 我再一分鐘 再比現在比委員多給我一分鐘就是我要提的就是說 現在都是Money Talk講錢的問題那我們就講說你這樣子一直砍 砍到現在已經第七年的時間"},{"start":1621.235,"end":1627.521,"text":"那這樣的一個光景其實已經見底了而且這個退休的教職人員也並沒有跟著說如果公務員長這個公教來挑釁的話他也跟著挑釁 沒有只是說四年要檢討 我們覺得四年太長我們改成兩年 而且我們希望能夠這個停砍就是說stop here 就不要再砍了"},{"start":1645.716,"end":1666.25,"text":"就是過去砍完 我們不是說回到過去七年前的時候不是 而是說不要再砍了就是stop here我們的重點在這裡 stop here所以這裡是兩個案子 一個案子就是說我們希望stop here因為案子就是我們希望每四年調整一次改成每兩年CPI呢 這個增加5的話"},{"start":1668.591,"end":1687.077,"text":"我們要調整 我們希望改成3%這是兩大重點 兩個案子最後一點我要提的是我希望執政黨的民進黨政府不要說把軍公教特別是軍公教當作說這個不是我的票就這樣子 氣之如碧熙"},{"start":1687.757,"end":1711.867,"text":"然後說這個勞工都是我的票所以拼命加拼命加這兩個可以比較嗎幾乎你可以看就如果以政府大水庫的概念來講把公交人員砍的這一部分的錢通通到勞保這邊去了雖然你說是回到基金可是就整個Lumson的概念是這樣的概念所以我希望我希望能夠得到本院同仁的支持我最後再強調一句話"},{"start":1713.388,"end":1728.769,"text":"我們不是說要回到年改前的那個狀況不是是說停砍就一直砍到現在可以的已經見底了更何況今年度的這個GDP按照組計長他講的可以到5%"},{"start":1730.131,"end":1748.658,"text":"去年也都是很好最近這幾年政府的財務情況非常好與其很多的浪費你不如說我們多照顧一點公教人員的一個退休的生活我想這是我們幾位委員這個修法的一個本意也請各位能夠支持 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員那接下來我們第二位請張志倫委員發言"},{"start":1763.294,"end":1782.346,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早那近年物價跟生活成本持續上升勞工年金現在是得依消費者物價指數CPI自動調整給付金額但公教退休人員的退休金卻未享有同樣的制度來保障"},{"start":1783.126,"end":1810.86,"text":"不僅自107年每年需遞減1.5%的所得替代率並與現職人員的條薪脫鉤導致年金被雙重削減實質所得水準大幅下降公教人員長年奉獻國家退休後理應獲得安定及有尊嚴的生活面對通膨壓力及醫療照護支出的增加許多退休人員陷入越老越窮的生活困境"},{"start":1811.52,"end":1827.541,"text":"此舉不但背離了社會公平以及憲法保證人民生存權的權利的原則也影響公教體系長期穩定及高教人員的士氣因此本次修法不只是補漏洞而是回到制度正義的原點"},{"start":1828.382,"end":1856.099,"text":"首先第三條已明定84年前已退休屬N級制人員不應再被納入退府基金範圍維護既得利益及法治安定第九條要求政府依法提高提撥比例不能讓基金虧損成為削減年金的藉口公教的退休保障更不應該被作為財政調節的工具更關鍵的是第37條與第38條"},{"start":1858.5,"end":1873.884,"text":"因停侃所得替代率逐年递减的规定建立明确的年金调整制度比照老保当消费者物价指数累积成长率达正负50%自动依比例调整退休所得"},{"start":1874.464,"end":1894.04,"text":"這是讓制度與現實對接讓退休金真的跟得上生活成本同時第67條刪除模糊授權的條文改與具體的指標規範CPI調整讓制度更透明更可預期這套修法"},{"start":1894.62,"end":1916.934,"text":"是要讓不是要讓誰能得利而是要恢復公平重建信任唯有讓公教人員在退休後能夠安穩有尊嚴的生活國家的行政體系與社會基礎才能更加穩固以上謝謝好謝謝張委員那接下來我們請徐宇珍委員發言"},{"start":1926.791,"end":1942.717,"text":"謝謝主席近年來我們身邊的長輩常常都提到現在的錢越來越薄退休金根本就不夠用這不是抱怨而是對生活的真實寫照從雞蛋豬肉到外食房租樣樣都在漲根據主計總數的統計消費者物價指數屢屢突破2%的通膨警戒線"},{"start":1947.839,"end":1962.615,"text":"對一般上班族而言已是沉重的壓力對退休收入固定的公教人員來說更是難以承受的負擔那這些曾經在教育崗位上奉獻青春教書育人的老師們如今眼看著物價節節上升生活品質不斷地下降"},{"start":1966.259,"end":1980.293,"text":"卻無力改變現狀因此為了讓制度真正的落實照顧老師的精神我們提出這樣的修法調整公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條第67條的內容讓退休教師能夠獲得更合理的保障"},{"start":1984.657,"end":2012.028,"text":"首先第37條的修正重點在於停止實施自113年1月1號以後逐年下降的所得替代率這項修法的核心是要清楚的表達國家的態度不能以制度削減對教師的尊重教育是百年大業教師是國家的根本當社會期望他們燃燒青春啟發下一代的時候國家就應該在他們年老時給予應有的照顧跟尊嚴"},{"start":2012.748,"end":2035.355,"text":"取消逐年下降的替代率這個修正看似簡單但是意義卻非常深遠象徵政府願意重生尊師重道的核心精神國家若連教師的退休保障都要節省那麼教育的根本將何以為繼唯有維持穩定合理的退休風才能讓教師無後顧之憂讓教育的火焰能夠持續的燃燒"},{"start":2036.175,"end":2040.659,"text":"接著第67號的修正則是將現行的消費者物價指數累積成長率達5%才調整的門檻下修為正2%負50%就應該及時啟動調整這樣的標準更貼近主計總署設計的通膨警戒線"},{"start":2054.292,"end":2075.424,"text":"也更能反映實際的民生壓力兩個百分點看似微小但是對退休老師來說可能是每個月可以多出幾百元的生活費我們同時要要求政府至少每兩年要檢討一次而不是像現在過去三四年才有動作我們理解財政有壓力但社會的溫度不該被冰冷的數字掩蓋"},{"start":2076.144,"end":2095.832,"text":"照顾这些教师就是在传递一个清楚的讯息国家不会忘记这些教育奉献一生的老师这不只是制度的修正更是社会的良心也是我们共同对尊师重道最实际的实践谢谢好 谢谢徐宇峥委员那接下来请黄金航委员发言"},{"start":2106.733,"end":2116.357,"text":"好 謝謝主席本期今天提的是公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例的提案說明那我想近年來各項的指數都有增幅那像基本工資115年調幅3.18%114年調幅4.08%去年的調幅是4.05那也是連10年調漲"},{"start":2124.361,"end":2143.835,"text":"同時現值的軍工教條新111年113年都增幅4%114年也增幅3%另外國民年金在2024年的時候因為CPI指數成長7.34%所以也調整了給付金額所以整體物價的波動很明顯的對於國人的生活影響非常的巨大"},{"start":2144.415,"end":2160.16,"text":"那行政院過去在2024年總統大選前9天曾經宣布過退休軍公教人員的退休分在2024年總預算已經匡列了44億元但是選後卻一直沒有消息後來司令法院洽詢之後才發現人就在公務會議中過程中延宕"},{"start":2161.34,"end":2189.857,"text":"大家要求之後他才加速完成好像就是想發就發如果沒有人問就不發所以可以看到現行方式針對退休軍公教的這種做法極為不公容易因為政府機關被動處理來調整那影響的是真實的人民真實的退休人員生活所需所以我們想應該要比照勞工保險條例的規定在中央主計機關發布消費者物價指數累積成長率達到一定比例之後來針對相關的比例來做調整"},{"start":2190.717,"end":2213.865,"text":"所以本期提出的這個六七條修正案是修訂中央主力機關發布的消費者物價指數累計成長率達到正負百分之五的時候應於發布日期的三個月內來調整那調整比例當然還是可以由考試院會同行政院來制定相關的公式那隨著軍公教的加薪比例來調整來保障我們的公立學校退休教職員現實的生活所需以上 謝謝"},{"start":2225.307,"end":2234.061,"text":"好 謝謝因為主席翁曉琳委員是接下來提案的提案說明委員所以先由我暫代主席我們接下來有請翁曉琳委員"},{"start":2239.434,"end":2264.716,"text":"主席 各位委員夥伴還有各位列席官員大家好本席這次提出公立學校教職員退休之前輔具條例第37條和第67條的修正案是為了要替我們國家所有辛苦一輩子逃離滿天下的學校限職和退休老師職員們爭取他們晚年最基本的尊嚴和生活保障那麼面對高通棚高物價不穩定的"},{"start":2265.837,"end":2290.099,"text":"經濟環境國家真的不能再虧待這些教育界的圓丁以及奉獻者照顧他們的後半生是政府應盡的責任和逃不掉的憲法與法律責任那麼民進黨政府當初強行推動公教人員退休金改革的用意之一就是為了要避免退府基金的破產但是防止退府基金破產的方式有很多種"},{"start":2290.7,"end":2314.256,"text":"政府最不应该的就是以粗暴的方式来扣减已经退休和在职适用就职退休制度的公教人员们的退休金牺牲他们请领退休金的权利来弥补政府操作退府基金的不当疏失退休金是雇主承诺在员工退休的时候要依照双方合议约定的条件来保证给付一定数额的退休金"},{"start":2314.716,"end":2329.373,"text":"因此雇主原本就应该为了他们的雇佣的劳工的退休金预做准备不能够因为退休金准备不足或是计算公司有错误等等这些理由来推诿支付员工足额退休金的责任"},{"start":2330.213,"end":2349.679,"text":"這種基本的道理為何當雇主是政府的時候就完全變了樣政府可以用一大堆的藉口單方的去修改退休金支付契約的條件耍賴不發足額的退休金硬是要把公教員工踩在腳底下這不是霸凌 什麼才是霸凌"},{"start":2351.072,"end":2375.14,"text":"民進黨政府主導的退休金霸凌法案已經實施了7年這段時間台灣經濟通膨物價飛漲不僅是青年人苦連退休族也很辛苦所以主計總處的數據也說了那麼物價上漲其實對於年紀大的長輩們來說衝擊最大一邊是退休金在縮水另外一邊則是生活費在漲這讓很多基層的退休老師們的負擔"},{"start":2376.5,"end":2392.834,"text":"已经重到快喘不过气来了所以政府不能够用牺牲退休人员的基本生活来达成修补财务亏损的目标继续扣抵退休公教人员的退休金是不公不义的那么剩下四年的主攻点"},{"start":2394.135,"end":2417.728,"text":"遞減退休的這個政策必須要立刻踩煞車讓他們至少能夠有安穩的過日子的錢這是對教師們一生貢獻最起碼的肯定那麼最後本席這裡也提出應該未來的退休金要隨著物價通膨指數來進行調整那麼我想這個部分也是很重要的那最後我還是要請大家共同支持教育人員"},{"start":2418.809,"end":2427.534,"text":"退休金扣減停存法案終止繼續霸凌公教人員好 謝謝大家好 謝謝鍾委員那現在也請鍾委員赴會主席那接下來我們請林慶琪委員發言"},{"start":2445.906,"end":2446.851,"text":"他代表國民黨黨團的這個提案發言 謝謝"},{"start":2456.399,"end":2474.989,"text":"謝謝主席本席代表國民黨黨團針對公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條修正草案作提案說明現行的制度自107年施行後階段性削減了退休教職員的所得替代率並於109年起連續10年每年再減少1.5%最高自77."},{"start":2483.293,"end":2505.038,"text":"最高至77.5%預計降為62.5%最低更從45%預計降至30%此外條文更規定年金不得在隨在職人員興奉調整這樣子的設計如今已經造成了退休人員生活負擔並且生活得很沉重"},{"start":2505.858,"end":2530.559,"text":"近年通膨的压力持续上升主计总数统计显示近三年的消费者物价指数连年上涨十一住行的成本全面上升基本工资与军工教薪资皆以速度调整然而退休教职员的年金却无法反映物价与实职薪资的变动导致生活品质不断下降"},{"start":2531.46,"end":2554.729,"text":"许多在教育岗位奉献数十年的老师如今面临了退休所得购买率下滑连基本生活开支都感觉到吃紧的困境国家设立公立学校教职员退休抚恤制度本意是在保障服务年资者退休后的基本生活让常年为教育奉献的人员能够安享晚年"},{"start":2555.97,"end":2570.49,"text":"現職人員若能隨心奉調整以反映付物價退休人員也應該獲得相對調整的機制這不僅是制度設計的應該有的公平原則更關係到政府信用與社會信賴的維繫"},{"start":2572.012,"end":2597.282,"text":"本次修法刪除了現行條文不再隨在職人員薪資調整之限制讓退休所得重新與現職薪奉連動並停止所得替代率逐年下降的一個規定付表三的逐年降低113年1月1日之後部分均不適用確保退休所得穩定避免年金制度淪為實質減奉"},{"start":2599.443,"end":2626.824,"text":"本提案致力於恢復制度的公平與合理讓教職員能安心退休讓廣大的公教人員相信政府制度是可信任的國家應該實踐信賴保證原則應以專業計算與政府的執行能力來維護人民的保障不應以任何理由來毀壞承諾而且是國家對人民的承諾更不應該被毀壞以上敬請各位同仁支持本案敬訴審議通過 謝謝"},{"start":2630.485,"end":2632.027,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好"},{"start":2656.004,"end":2677.833,"text":"大宴近日併案審查公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例相關條文修正草案以下請就大宴黨團及委員所提各草案提出說明進行參考一 提案修正第37條及第38條退休所得替代例自113年1月1日起或114年後停止逐年條項部分"},{"start":2679.033,"end":2691.404,"text":"教職研部分將使未來五十年年改節省經費挹注退伏基金減少約一千六百五十二億元導致退伏基金用期年度再提前三到四年對"},{"start":2692.901,"end":2712.722,"text":"基金財務安全產生衝擊且現行規定下約85%退休教職員實施夜退休所得超過5萬元平均每月支領金額約5.8萬元又現行已訂有配合消費者物價指數而啟動夜退休經調整之機制"},{"start":2714.003,"end":2733.055,"text":"調整後金額亦不受退休所得替代率上限限制原現行制度足以保障退休生活建請維持現行條文二提案修正第六十七條修正定期退伍給予以調整機制啟動條件調整比例考量因素及辦理期程等應退"},{"start":2734.016,"end":2756.098,"text":"退撫給予調整需考量退休所得整體之合理性以現值待遇間之橫頻及合理差異以及退撫基金財務安全及政府財政等因素不宜禁以消費者物價指數之累計成長率為調整比例或制定公式調整由107年至今以"},{"start":2756.698,"end":2782.107,"text":"二度調整業退休金合計調整6%現行制度應可提供適度保障三提案修正第九條增訂中央政府因每年因編制不低於各級政府所節省退伍經費之兩倍數額挹注退伍基金因現行規定以明定退伍基金由政府負最後保證責任且依"},{"start":2783.007,"end":2810.384,"text":"定有相關退伍基金財務切口由政府分年編列預算撥補至規定也原基於國家資源分配規劃彈性建議維持現行規定是提案修訂第三條增訂八十四年前已退休人員之退休知情撫恤事項人依原規定辦理基於橫平性考量不宜單獨排除特定年度以前退休是教職員中上現行"},{"start":2811.164,"end":2831.455,"text":"退府制度已在兼顧退休人員權益及退府基金財務擬定合理至退休所的替代力且經大法官肯認符合相關憲法原則據亦達成之改革目標原件請維持現行規定以上報告 期請各位委員不吝此證謝謝各位委員 謝謝好 謝謝鄭部長那接下來請循序部懷證次報告"},{"start":2844.125,"end":2867.79,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 今天大家早安今天大院審查國民黨黨團及部分立法院審查的提案關於公立學校教職員吹噓撫恤條例相關的提案基於公教人員的共同項目以及我們基金管理的立場 以上報告第一個是關於對於修正第37條跟38條的停止橋樑所得替代率的部分"},{"start":2868.51,"end":2887.57,"text":"那這個部分事實上我們那個退伍基金原來就是不足而提撥那我們在年改之前大概收支的部分是達到141.94%等於說收入的部分比那個支出部分更大那我們年改後已經調降到84.86%等於是有相當大的一個成果"},{"start":2888.03,"end":2913.025,"text":"另外在連改的時候相關的部分我們總共大概回饋到退伍基金裡面大概3390億多那如果我們停止調降的話未來我們這個缺口將會再減少2780多億那另外對於那個退伍基金用心的部分因為原來我們的設計是希望從本來是在119年就會用滿那我們後來連改以後已經把它調整讓它能夠到134年才"},{"start":2915.706,"end":2928.169,"text":"才那個用慶那麼是基於112年的7月1號新的退出專屋實施以後它的用慶時間又提前到132年那如果這次再予以再調整的話將會在用慶時間會提前到129年那整體來講大概中間還要再回補大概2700多億元"},{"start":2935.131,"end":2953.312,"text":"那另外一部分就關於要不要隨現實原因帶來調整的部分事實上目前有關於那個CPI政府5%就可以進行調整或每四年可以予以調整那目前我們在年改後已經大概先後已經調整過兩次總共合計增加6%那另外一個部分需要考量的是"},{"start":2953.772,"end":2972.263,"text":"限制人員的待遇如果跟退休人員待遇太過接近的話會鼓勵到很多人員就提早離開這樣部分事實上也會造成整個基金的重振的負擔如果說連限制人員待遇調整跟CPI同時都並行的話會造成整個財務的雙重負擔"},{"start":2973.784,"end":2988.255,"text":"另外我們在現行的退出制度上面事實上已經有最低門檻的一個保障那麼在這種情況下也不會說在118年以後會繼續往下去砍那麼在最後有提到就是說我們希望在那個"},{"start":2988.976,"end":3011.642,"text":"第三條把排除84年以前已經退休人員來的部分停止調降那以目前來講84年在年改之前已經退休人員就不是我們學校教職員退休條例適用的對象第三條這樣修正基本上在法治上是沒有失意但我們仔細來研讀提案說明的話如果真的要修正的話是應該要修正第三七條"},{"start":3012.302,"end":3030.492,"text":"不過這樣的修正可能要考慮到說84年以前可以豁免那85 86以後的相關聯約也是會有類似的一個情形發生這都需要一併來整個來考量那最後關於第九條要不要來編列預算部因為涉及到中央這種總預算編列那本部尊重那個財主單位意見 以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝 那接下來我們請張秋元副人事長報告"},{"start":3055.792,"end":3077.462,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早安感謝聯席會議邀請本總處來列席今天的會議以下僅就今天排審的十個委員提案修正公立學校教育園退休資權扶持條例說明本總處的意見第一"},{"start":3078.803,"end":3104.74,"text":"年金改革的目的是在強化基金的財務永續確保老年經濟生活無虞目前已經有初步的成果107年政府推動年金改革是為了要健全基金的財務達成世代互助並且實現政府基金跟國家永續發展的目標以目前的成果來看的確有效延長的"},{"start":3105.72,"end":3129.394,"text":"一個結果那考試院跟行政院在這個條例實施以後也依照條例的規定在施行的之後的5年也就是在112年已經完成了第一次的定體檢討檢討的結果考量現在的這個特務基金的財務一個世代30年內還是會有用盡的風險"},{"start":3131.335,"end":3155.611,"text":"另外配合112年7月1號開始實施的出任公交人員的個人專戶制的退伏制度衍生了一個退伏基金的財務缺口現在也必須繼續由政府來編列預算做撥補為了維持現有的改革成果現有的各項措施繼續維持然後也決定之後每五年會定期進行檢視那第二"},{"start":3160.92,"end":3180.001,"text":"如果停止所得替代率的遞減跟退休給予隨著限職人員調整或者是降退休給予的調整門檻都會衝擊基金的財務跟它的改革的成果也就是會讓基金的用慶的年度會提早"},{"start":3180.962,"end":3198.53,"text":"那大家關心的物價上漲的問題是在制度上已經有設計剛剛兩個部會也有多做說明就兩個條件一個是這個CPI達到政府5%第二個是每四年那這兩個機制之前其實也都已經有實施過總共調了6%"},{"start":3200.791,"end":3226.404,"text":"那最後政府推動年金改革主要的重點是要建立一個世世代代領得到長長久久領得到的年金制度那麼為了確保基金的長治久安它是一個整個制度有完整的配套所以我們會建議尊重退伍業務的主管機關教育部跟群區部的意見維持現行的規定以上報告請各位參考 謝謝"},{"start":3229.175,"end":3245.823,"text":"好 謝謝任市長那麼其餘提出書面報告的機關有沒有要口頭報告或是補充的好 沒有的話那麼我們就機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":3247.523,"end":3276.663,"text":"那麼報告各位委員因為今天提案的這個就提出發言的委員的人數比較多所以我們接下來的詢答時間本聯席會的委員詢答時間為6分鐘非本聯席會委員詢答時間為3分鐘均不再延長那麼上午10點半就截止發言登記那本日會議的請進行詢答那接下來我們就請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3285.19,"end":3312.102,"text":"謝謝主席 我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱昏昏或是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答 全部都在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌 來"},{"start":3318.379,"end":3330.378,"text":"委員長三位好 我實際的關係不一一問我首先從那個 旋序部開始警察人員人事條例 總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說"},{"start":3332.901,"end":3361.266,"text":"新法生效以後現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了新法生效以後法律已經生效你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那天問選區部的部長我問他說啊你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有他跟我說有但問題是什麼問題是啊我們警察同仁跟我"},{"start":3362.372,"end":3386.374,"text":"提出陳情的時候 我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說 喂喂沒有耶你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了 我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊"},{"start":3388.083,"end":3395.921,"text":"你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算施年傑跟我說有 這怎麼回事"},{"start":3397.099,"end":3419.318,"text":"現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦"},{"start":3419.958,"end":3447.088,"text":"怎麼會出現這樣的差異我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面 一個是寫在互助上面這個部分 但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響"},{"start":3447.708,"end":3470.383,"text":"你說對他實際不會有影響 那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的 新的還舊的目前因為新的是沒有 因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦 這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎 不會嘛"},{"start":3471.977,"end":3498.977,"text":"你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦 我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家"},{"start":3500.419,"end":3512.156,"text":"對於公務人員 對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算"},{"start":3513.362,"end":3538.618,"text":"沒有預算 也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治 但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告 屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律 那是供預算編列那我們就沒有 這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛"},{"start":3539.358,"end":3549.791,"text":"你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對 那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊 我們現在會做啊"},{"start":3550.885,"end":3575.553,"text":"而且我跟委員報告我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是 新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好 沒關係我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛"},{"start":3576.687,"end":3599.838,"text":"我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望"},{"start":3601.038,"end":3629.831,"text":"選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年"},{"start":3634.895,"end":3657.51,"text":"錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊 我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊"},{"start":3658.536,"end":3680.513,"text":"行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼 多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情"},{"start":3681.67,"end":3703.636,"text":"那等於是什麼 等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的 你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話 50年會增加1600多億嘛沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話 5年會增加1400多億啊"},{"start":3705.609,"end":3733.737,"text":"同一天喔到這邊來報告喔一個教育部 一個玄敘部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁 我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊50年 不管是1400多億還是1600多億平均一年多少錢就30億嘛"},{"start":3736.055,"end":3764.542,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧 部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費"},{"start":3766.621,"end":3793.259,"text":"給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流"},{"start":3794.52,"end":3804.162,"text":"明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來 我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案 10年還20年"},{"start":3814.485,"end":3828.61,"text":"跟委員報告 部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼 去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人 話隨便講一講說要10年撥補 結果出來預算書還是20年撥補"},{"start":3836.914,"end":3865.549,"text":"教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院 卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來 請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎"},{"start":3866.824,"end":3892.86,"text":"有建議所以索隆他還是堅持己見那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體這個考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說"},{"start":3894.321,"end":3922.084,"text":"啊 如果教師停侃 未來每年會多30億來 我來看看 10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪 10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊"},{"start":3923.123,"end":3936.942,"text":"做出的承諾不履行 採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政 這是什麼治理 這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢 我完全看不懂"},{"start":3938.649,"end":3959.722,"text":"我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員請回座"},{"start":3969.465,"end":3971.886,"text":"好 那麼接下來我們請柯政委員發言謝謝主席 我們是不是請部長 教育部部長好 有請部長委員好"},{"start":3989.13,"end":4009.041,"text":"部长好我是提出第64条的修正动议但是在我进入主题之前我还是有个问题想问同样是全教总的问题我记得上上个礼拜我们提到有关于学校的校事会议没错吧部长跟部长不管曹也都提到校事会议大家是不需要精进但是呢你们就有一位前"},{"start":4009.761,"end":4039.174,"text":"这个主秘庄国荣教授他却在上礼拜五的时候对于全教总他认为他是没出息提到这个校师会议教育部完全没有任何的一个说法那你想请问他到底是吼给这个部长看指桑骂槐因为你明明告诉我们校师会议是要来做更精进的但是你却没有对于这样一个最大的教师团体被这样子的羞辱的时候教育部却完全没有任何的部分所以教育部是默许吗"},{"start":4040.729,"end":4061.398,"text":"跟委員報告我確實沒有看到這一則的一個新聞這在教育區那我現在看到了你現在看到了還有呢我還是必須要提出來這是真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在做發聲這位前主秘他目前的角色在什麼地方在教育部是擔任什麼工作莊國榮先生在教育部擔任什麼工作部長沒有啊"},{"start":4061.909,"end":4088.339,"text":"他們有工作嗎 有吧沒有 就說他可能有一些諮詢委員的類似 但是教育部裡面沒錯 這就是一個重點啊但是呢 所有的權益修法教師法規審判 霸凌學生身心調適全部 很多的回憶完全是牽涉在其中我就在思考這也是本席受到非常不同的團體來告訴我所以說你們教育部都沒有其他的人了這只信任他一個"},{"start":4088.899,"end":4092.442,"text":"如果都要參加這麼多的話 你們的法規處長在幹嘛他基本上是法學背景 當然在委員會 法規委員會裡面有許多的其他的這個法學的一些專家 專業的一個學者是 非常多人可以去問 卻是由他來做一個主導部長你應該徹底去把他查清楚 還有往下來去看特別是呢 他提出來 即使證據薄弱也要強行進入調查 部長"},{"start":4114.398,"end":4116.701,"text":"你去試試看這麼多的老師特別是高中以下的這些的老師如果有一些些的問題只要有人出一張嘴你們就要一個學校就要10萬塊錢來去做這樣的事情他的一些從專業他的一些看法我們尊重"},{"start":4130.356,"end":4133.198,"text":"但是基本上我們從校士會議來看就是因為爛輸這一個沒有具名的指控太多沒有錯 而且這位前主席當然 所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾"},{"start":4158.979,"end":4173.416,"text":"千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎"},{"start":4174.617,"end":4181.141,"text":"好 接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整"},{"start":4202.412,"end":4230.093,"text":"所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的這叫做好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長"},{"start":4231.614,"end":4257.296,"text":"對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟老保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以老保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍範圍誰可以回答我這個問題"},{"start":4259.707,"end":4280.799,"text":"那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務"},{"start":4286.963,"end":4308.267,"text":"年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六樣看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的公教人員需要做很多不同的方法每四年有這個政府CPI這個政府5%"},{"start":4312.688,"end":4324.316,"text":"是 但是你跟其他 我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用 他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變 然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊"},{"start":4335.703,"end":4363.782,"text":"所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力"},{"start":4365.478,"end":4389.809,"text":"好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員那麼因為今天這個登記發言的委員很多所以我們就是聯席委員會的委員發言時間是以6分鐘為限然後非本聯席委員會的委員發言則以3分鐘為限那接下來我們請外美林委員發言謝謝"},{"start":4395.563,"end":4421.783,"text":"好 接下來請萬委員 可以好 謝謝趙薇 我們有請部長不好意思 因為今天部長有提前請假他9點50分之後他請假 這麼重要的議題 為什麼可以請假之後10點有公務 還是說可是如果部長不在的話 這個問題 質詢就沒有代表性啦"},{"start":4423.669,"end":4448.764,"text":"因為之前有提出要不然就請萬委員執行完之後讓部長再理解因為我之前已經有同意部長然後接下來就會請政治代替好 謝謝 謝謝我們召委我想部長真的不好意思我一定得要請教您剛才您在這個備詢的這個最尾端說好我們會來努力我想我給您一點時間你告訴我針對這個我們年輕的這個部分這個議題你要怎麼努力"},{"start":4450.748,"end":4476.817,"text":"我想跟委員報告這一個它確實是當時的設立這一個年金的一個修改就是在一個世代的附註是啦那另外也跟委員報告我們其實看到我問你一個啦我今天看到您提出的書面報告您提出的報告上是寫說不建議修法來停砍年金這樣的一個說法這樣的報告這個立場是您本人的立場嗎"},{"start":4478.497,"end":4506.536,"text":"我其實跟委員報告就是說我們看到平均85%以上的這些老師是上次月退休金是5.8萬以上那以這一個再加上我們全民健保我們的這一個長照部長我只問您啦你講的這些我都有看但我就問您這是不是你個人主張的立場我們不建議修法停砍年金這是您個人主張的嗎但部長您是整個教育的大家長"},{"start":4507.677,"end":4526.664,"text":"持平的論我在橫豬我們台灣的各項的一個對退休這一個教師的一個退休的一個照顧我想怎麼樣去適當而能夠滿足他退休安全的一個這一個生活部長啊您的書面報告到底是幕僚寫的還是你有看過呀"},{"start":4527.421,"end":4542.457,"text":"我看過的您看過那請問一下針對今天的書面報告您本人的主張到底是不是不建議修改這個停凱年金基本上我是這樣認為因為我們有非常完善的一個您今天這麼清楚的這個全民健保跟這一哥"},{"start":4542.517,"end":4568.951,"text":"您今天這麼清楚的去講您個人的主張是不建議修法停侃這件事情我想真的是讓我們今天所有的教師會感到非常非常的痛心也非常的失望因為您是教育界的大家長但是理應是最理解我們教師的辛苦也理應是最會捍衛我們老師的權益的如果連部長都反對停侃年輕捍衛老師的退休的一個權益的照顧我想"},{"start":4570.633,"end":4586.304,"text":"現有的制度再加上我們中央跟地方的許多的主席把我的時間停止一下對 麻煩部長請尊重委員的發言抱歉發言完之後您再回答來 好 請開始謝謝趙偉我想因為您這個說得也很清楚了"},{"start":4586.804,"end":4615.383,"text":"如果您個人是這樣的建議那本席認為聽在所有我們基層老師的這個耳裡啊他們會非常痛心的因為呢您應該是最了解我們所有基層老師的辛苦也最了解現在在教育現場第一線的不容易喔那麼您現在喔這麼具體的反對這個停函年金喔等於是告訴全國的教師我並沒有反對以新階段來看他是一個師範國你剛剛有講您反對嘛這是你的立場嘛你等於啊是告訴全國的老師你們現在這些辛苦的付出喔其實是不值得被保障的啦"},{"start":4616.964,"end":4633.42,"text":"照顧 我想喔 我告訴你兩個喔 本席告訴你兩個 其實你自己心裡也知道 但我不知道你有什麼為難之處喔 我告訴你兩個年金停砍必須要停的這個兩大理由 第一個我們的所得替代率啊 已經砍到比勞工還要低了喔"},{"start":4633.92,"end":4657.731,"text":"我們退休的教師目前的這個所得替代率從107年到現在114年已經被砍了9%如果我們以年資30年的退休老師來看我們的所得替代率已經從67.5%降到了58.5%如果再往下砍我們就要低於勞工退休平均的替代率58%這是第一個 那麼第二個呢退休縫的條性啊"},{"start":4658.951,"end":4676.751,"text":"我們比不上現代的公務人員我們看到107年到現在現任的公務人員調薪11%退休人員我們退休人員只有6%足足差了5%所以我們看到如果我們的所得替代率比勞工還低我們調薪又比公務員來得還不如"},{"start":4677.392,"end":4683.394,"text":"我就不理解您是我們教育的大家長怎麼不知道要捍衛他們的權益所以我想部長你不要在這裡背詢聽後面跟你搖耳朵然後就來轉述自己不能了解"},{"start":4693.277,"end":4715.283,"text":"我覺得這樣是非常不好的啦那我想您從上任到現在大家都覺得你對教育其實很認真但是希望這件事情你剛剛說我們在努力我們希望你要努力捍衛我們這個教室的權益啦那當然我覺得上有政策但你下要摸著自己良心怎麼為這些老師來捍衛他們的權益那當然還剩一點時間今天要跟你討論的就是"},{"start":4717.608,"end":4744.016,"text":"我們在公務人員身心調適假的這件事情上面我想我們在教文委員會也聽過很多次全區部目前修正公務人員請假的規則也就是教育部同步修正了教師請假的規則讓我們的公務員跟教師10月10號開始起我們都有三天的身心調適假當然這個是很好可是您知道嗎新版的規定這三天身心調適假跟原本的七天的家庭照顧假"},{"start":4745.016,"end":4753.2,"text":"併入這一年只有七天的不扣薪試駕要併入啊 所以事實上喔這個就跟我們現在這個行政院在講什麼生一胎十萬塊結果要併入我們的這個社會保險一樣的喔 我覺得有點畫大餅啦所以呢 我想喔"},{"start":4761.243,"end":4786.843,"text":"部長是不是能夠在身心調適架上面我覺得要能夠做一些爭取能不能夠教育部跟權序部把這三天的身心調適架我們獨立出來從不扣薪的市價把它獨立出來讓我們真正所謂的三天的身心調適架能夠落實部長您的看法呢我想委員非常感謝委員關心委員也非常清楚"},{"start":4788.164,"end":4806.403,"text":"確實在整個精工教整個整個整體的考量我們老師只要請假他必須要他的課程必須要有人代理那這個部分過去試下是他要致富的那這個跟這個聲音調適教我們是由教育部跟地方國立的教育部全額補助然後"},{"start":4807.423,"end":4834.739,"text":"就縣市政府的這些國民教育的部分是由教育部跟地方共同合作來你應該在提的是代理代課教師的問題嘛對不對那一個全部都是包含在一邊的我跟你講每一個政策他會衍生出來很多我們應該要一併去解決的問題但不是因為會衍生出來那些問題我們就把最主要這個權益給砍掉所以我想今天我們提出來兩個問題我們希望部長回去好好替我們教育界替基層老師來想想怎麼捍衛他的權益好不好一定的謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4837.332,"end":4855.95,"text":"好 謝謝萬委員那接下來我們請陳培芸委員發言好 那有請教育部次長 謝謝好 有請朱次長 謝謝"},{"start":4858.888,"end":4865.753,"text":"好 次長我想我們今天一樣來討論這個公立學校教職員退休之前扶持條例的部分來 我們來看一下來 第一張喔"},{"start":4870.106,"end":4890.873,"text":"前總統馬英九他在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候他自己說了就算再困難年金改革也一定要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話尤其是很多國民黨委員我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話甚至呢當時馬前總統還說"},{"start":4894.35,"end":4908.027,"text":"未來會出現繳得少退得早領得多這是他當時所說的話同時會因為這樣產生三大問題一經費不足二行業不平三世代不均這個是馬前總統說過的話我們來往下"},{"start":4912.485,"end":4930.12,"text":"啟動年金改革蔡英文前總統也說現在不做以後會後悔不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到現在不做馬上就會後悔馬前總統只敢講不敢做蔡英文總統講了也做了我們來看一下"},{"start":4931.261,"end":4953.374,"text":"有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統或是講小英總統說過什麼什麼這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席也是2015年時代力量的黨主席他當時呢上了一個電視節目而且呢他就說了這樣的話他說不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題而是這一代馬上要面對的災難"},{"start":4954.975,"end":4979.83,"text":"我們再也沒有拖延的時間唯有誠實的面對問題務實的提出解決方法才有可能避免台灣希臘化的噩夢制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來我們都在同一條船上必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度我很少同意他說過的話但這一段我同意為了避免說我造謠"},{"start":4980.911,"end":5007.788,"text":"我要提醒一下當時他發言的時候當時沒有AI也沒有身為影片我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說各位朋友大家好我是時代力量的黃國昌歡迎收看台灣廣場台灣的財政問題非常嚴重根據財政部的估算國家的潛藏性負債已經超過17兆元了等於每個台灣人無論男女老少都要背負74萬元的債務"},{"start":5010.39,"end":5021.386,"text":"在負債中佔最大比例的就是退休年金包括軍公教在內的九大基金每年就要吃掉政府六千多億元的預算十分驚人"},{"start":5022.799,"end":5047.228,"text":"年金不只是國家沉重的財政負擔更成為社會不公平世代不正義的幫兇日前財政部長張勝和說了實話他的妻子在國中任教時一個月領六萬四千元退休以後一個月領六萬八千元不做事 淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行"},{"start":5048.851,"end":5066.097,"text":"好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本"},{"start":5068.263,"end":5085.369,"text":"我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以"},{"start":5087.33,"end":5108.482,"text":"我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年"},{"start":5109.022,"end":5126.965,"text":"下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第9次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來"},{"start":5127.686,"end":5155.655,"text":"整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年提前3到4年所以有可能是127或128128或129129就有可能用完那提早這4年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到"},{"start":5156.115,"end":5181.21,"text":"或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月實領退休所的你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那"},{"start":5184.452,"end":5205.252,"text":"跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數 經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好 4.6萬 其實這個差的很清楚5.8 4.6 我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想"},{"start":5205.992,"end":5233.924,"text":"創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止盡的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦"},{"start":5237.387,"end":5259.265,"text":"根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於退月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟限職人員薪資的一個橫平性限職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能說"},{"start":5260.607,"end":5274.104,"text":"我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降這樣真的有符合公平公義嗎"},{"start":5276.086,"end":5302.98,"text":"目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路"},{"start":5303.86,"end":5316.784,"text":"我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席好 以上 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員那接下來我們請王一川委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請教育部次長 謝謝"},{"start":5332.797,"end":5359.495,"text":"有請朱次長市長好上次我總質詢有問部長關於這個抖音TALK的問題最近交易部有沒有做什麼事跟委員報告我們目前針對小紅書跟抖音這方面的來自中國的APP依照行政院的指示事實上我們都有一些相關的建議措施來"},{"start":5361.816,"end":5388.282,"text":"比如說在小紅書我們有提出不迷小紅書 青春不迷圖在抖音的部分我們有短影音專區針對裡面可能涉及的一些詐騙或是一些不實錯假訊息我們都有整理出來放到專區未來也會再從專區去哪裡放 去抖音放還是怎樣專區我們會你看抖音的人你要說抖音的不好你不就拿去抖音放這樣看得到嗎"},{"start":5391.621,"end":5404.692,"text":"我們目前大概是第一個部分是掛在我們各學校的網站裡你如果要掛說要出一支條 要做這短片你就去抖音把它放 說你這抖音不好那抖音這要傳回來給人家看到邏輯是不是這樣我以為我聽起來說的時候我沒有想到 普通校院長說要請一些團體大家討論這個國中小校園禁用抖音的事情這事情要加速"},{"start":5421.06,"end":5426.844,"text":"因為家長啊 家長都幾十多教育現場的老師啊 會覺得說 哇 這可能麻煩麻煩啊 一些小朋友啊 也知道這個消息因為會覺得說 哇 這東西我不能看所以多方的考量所以請教育部啊 在這個這一題上面啊這個大家討論 就是不一定答案是什麼我是主張要緊"},{"start":5448.989,"end":5472.328,"text":"我是主張要這個校園 內地啦齁當然這個數位部 他們有說嘛齁 他們有說這個就是把這個抖音在校園裡頭 給它屏蔽掉啦齁阿抖音叫TikTok一樣的東西不是給一個英語而已 再高級不是說 喔喔TikTok不是抖音TikTok就抖音啦 什麼英語而已啦那後台也是中國啦 幾乎幾乎什麼 喔TikTok就不是 都是"},{"start":5477.452,"end":5484.534,"text":"研究看看 這校園裡面都要緊張好 第二個我請問一下 現在我們今天討論的這些條文剛剛有委員說這個所得替代率 說什麼B 六天再加給我量一段 量到B50幾%這數字是怎樣 給我補充 沒時間談 你講一下"},{"start":5504.848,"end":5533.116,"text":"跟委員報告因為是不同性質的一個保險或職業年紀的性質其實以所得替代率來講或許在有些部分勞保會比較高可是因為回到實際的投保薪資來講其實整體來說公教人員的月退租金還是普遍的比勞保所領的月退還要高普遍啦對公教捏比勞保還多這聽起來也正常正常"},{"start":5534.171,"end":5550.179,"text":"因為公交要科技嘛公交要科技所以現在你說你省給平均5.8萬現在已經退休了啦是 已經退休了好 我請問你退休的公交人員現在最多多少最多多少一個位這因為跟他的薪職 年資都不太一樣我知道我知道 最多可以多少平均"},{"start":5564.792,"end":5592.151,"text":"跟委員報告 平均來講因為剛剛有報告過 平均來講大概是五萬八嘛沒有啦 這平均就不準 有人捏多 有人捏少 最多要捏多少最多的資料可能還要查 再給委員沒有 你如果說這個什麼公立學校的老師做到好端就四十年四十年退休 最多他要捏多少跟委員報告 最多在這裡的資料大概八萬六"},{"start":5592.97,"end":5609.965,"text":"八萬六 最少的最少有三萬幾喔但是三萬幾的人其實大概差不多一千六百幾為什麼你那麼少這就是剛才市長說的因為這年資有關係跟他當時在限職的時候 他的本薪是有關係所以本薪本來就低"},{"start":5620.083,"end":5636.973,"text":"然後他可能那個年資也不長那就退了 是不是這樣我跟委員報告一個數據就是說我們如果以實質的所得替代率來講大概落的區間就是最高到最低大概是落在你薪資大概是73%到53%左右"},{"start":5639.778,"end":5649.42,"text":"那這樣子的一個所得替代率大概跟OECD國家比起來我們最低都還是OECD國家比較高不是啦 其他國家比不要比啦因為其他國家大家的物價水準不一樣啦我們現在跟社會說 其實退休的老師退休的老師啦 公立學校老師最多啦 你要最高人家好長啦已經做三四十年 退休的他也差不多八萬幾啦 我這樣說對不對最高 好"},{"start":5666.164,"end":5668.83,"text":"阿吉豪做儘管的 他可能本地薪水就多 連資委也沒做到很久他就退了 他也只有三萬幾啦"},{"start":5676.415,"end":5695.867,"text":"這樣說對不對目前的地板是37,000啦地板是37,000對 那有些比37,000更低是因為在連改之前它本來的月退就是比較低所以那個原來就低於37,000的這一次的連改根本不會去動到好 這樣剛才說這條時間有調過6%所以你想這三萬多的它也對在調就對了是八萬多的也都有對在調是"},{"start":5703.086,"end":5727.009,"text":"那那個條的機制就是今天有委員提出來的幾年檢討百分之多少就從那個地方動了嘛對不對是 67條很明確的規定就是政府百分之五或是我們如果沒有條每四年就會檢討一次好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝王委員總是非常遵守時間 謝謝您接下來我們請劉淑冰委員發言"},{"start":5739.019,"end":5742.542,"text":"請教育部諸次長還有行政總署的主計處的人員跟權序部的政策 謝謝好 麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長 黃懷次長 謝謝"},{"start":5760.049,"end":5787.195,"text":"好 主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務 處事長"},{"start":5790.885,"end":5818.165,"text":"依照98條規定有缺口 政府來 教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好 那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對 是按照精算報告對 那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目"},{"start":5819.773,"end":5836.471,"text":"我們依法來辦理你們依法來辦理 對好 依法辦理 所以依法好 這邊我們看到希望這一邊會是非常重要的因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分這會看出他的態度好 但是可以看到的是你可以看到人"},{"start":5837.85,"end":5850.223,"text":"主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看到勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊"},{"start":5851.638,"end":5874.203,"text":"報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那113年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在"},{"start":5876.704,"end":5890.552,"text":"112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們知道113年的時候確實撥補了100億並沒有到精算報告那這邊"},{"start":5897.256,"end":5909.249,"text":"但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長 教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎"},{"start":5910.649,"end":5921.698,"text":"依照精算報告部裡面我們是以10年針對新制的缺口是以10年來撥補對 那你10年的話可是看到真正103年的時候破事實上是100億來講差額這麼大這樣子的話並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看得到如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到135年那這135年因為當初"},{"start":5939.091,"end":5950.823,"text":"的這個這個報告當中呢精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你111年加50年就是162年來講的話這邊就是他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成"},{"start":5956.869,"end":5962.353,"text":"你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變0的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了"},{"start":5975.627,"end":5995.02,"text":"這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來但是這地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情教育部跟"},{"start":5996.874,"end":6017.841,"text":"跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話或怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這個地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下好"},{"start":6018.641,"end":6044.27,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補那這三年113 114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口那你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為"},{"start":6046.751,"end":6074.97,"text":"110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總處這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施能傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況"},{"start":6076.511,"end":6096.065,"text":"跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊"},{"start":6098.087,"end":6118.063,"text":"我們不會讓這種情形對 所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是 再更重要的是因為 最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高 差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎"},{"start":6128.702,"end":6139.159,"text":"在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配博博我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力"},{"start":6140.185,"end":6166.618,"text":"好我們繼續往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退府給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退府條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數正負達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是"},{"start":6167.478,"end":6194.427,"text":"以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯但是我們看到的是今年在6月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅"},{"start":6194.867,"end":6214.013,"text":"基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算"},{"start":6215.668,"end":6244.144,"text":"報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是 我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上"},{"start":6244.915,"end":6266.544,"text":"好 希望主計總署這邊 特別要去針對到反映到人民的 尤其是教師他在退輔 退休之後的他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整 因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育的教育委員會呢"},{"start":6267.384,"end":6294.703,"text":"是不是請朱市長那邊或是主計處這邊做一個回應呢應該 尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在屬於教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是 各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話他可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考"},{"start":6295.143,"end":6310.432,"text":"好 謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟"},{"start":6322.519,"end":6334.91,"text":"跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部 朱市長你這邊是不是也可以說說把這個年紀實際上是算 精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它的效果"},{"start":6336.334,"end":6360.2,"text":"我們會後也針對第九次精算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好 謝謝那這一部分就陳貞嘉說這一部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝林委員"},{"start":6365.714,"end":6394.128,"text":"那接下來我們請葛如君委員發言好 謝謝主席有請教育部朱俊彰次長好 有請朱次長"},{"start":6396.505,"end":6412.765,"text":"委員好次長好我想本席認為今天召委排審公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例真的是在捍衛公平正義維持退休教師應有的待遇跟尊嚴"},{"start":6414.623,"end":6430.42,"text":"我們有看到教育部現在理論上應該要支持修法的方向但是我們看到書面報告裡面對於這次的態度卻傾向於維持現狀理由有各種各樣"},{"start":6431.68,"end":6453.739,"text":"甚至還提到未來這樣子做的話未來50年預計將減少1600億的收入但是老實說我們的政府台電撥補大筆一揮就是1000億結果50年1600億的差距就要靠剝奪我們這些退休教師的待遇跟尊嚴來達成"},{"start":6455.06,"end":6465.634,"text":"教育部為什麼對這次的修法持反對的意見為什麼不能逐額撥補這個朱市長您的意見是不是讓您表達一下您支持教育部這樣的立場嗎您個人支持嗎"},{"start":6467.041,"end":6487.873,"text":"根文報告在這一次的一個提案部裡面是建議維持現行條文那原因有以下幾個第一個部分就是說以目前整個不好意思 朱市長我打斷您我不需要看到您更多因為這其實報告裡都寫了不需要重複報告我問的是您個人你個人支持嗎"},{"start":6488.993,"end":6510.535,"text":"您摸著良心 您支持嗎我很感念年金改革是世代間的互助所以我怎麼樣讓在職的人員能夠安心50年只為了節省50年的1600億去剝奪這些教育跟尊嚴 您個人支持支持教育部要維持現狀 不支持修法"},{"start":6511.465,"end":6539.527,"text":"跟委員報告1650而已只是節省下來挹注到我們原來的退伍基金但是政府另外要撥補的甚至說因為這次停降可能引發的其他的缺口那個經費是更高的市長該做的事要做不要用各種的理由去剝奪這些待遇為什麼其實我們剛剛講到要世代互助要世代融合你想像如果有一間公司雇主在員工入職的時候"},{"start":6539.847,"end":6557.453,"text":"谈好了薪资待遇结果呢在员工退休以后呢说啊你的这个退休所得啊每年减少1.5%然后呢现在的这个通膨啊每年大概2%所以呢一增一减之间啊我算过了啦在20年就只剩下一半啊"},{"start":6557.853,"end":6586.98,"text":"那違背了當初跟員工談好的條件您認為這樣的雇主值得信任嗎年輕人找工作會考慮這樣的一個公司跟事業嗎事實上我們並不是隨便在亂罵根據Teach for Taiwan引用泰報所整理的數據112年來看我們有22.6萬人有合格教師證但是有7.4萬人領了教師證卻沒有進入教職去選擇其他工作"},{"start":6587.66,"end":6612.777,"text":"其實就是你們這樣的出爾反爾造成的嘛年輕人根本不願意投入進去這是個挑戰7萬多佔整體失智人力的33%我們都幫你算好了更有高達7成以上70%哦足被失智表示不願意投入教職為什麼講好的事情不願意投入不願意履行承諾嘛那同時啊最明顯的現象還有什麼"},{"start":6613.577,"end":6623.03,"text":"剛剛次長講了要世代互助世代協作世代融合結果我們30歲以下的教師占比明顯低於世界各國國小4.9%"},{"start":6626.734,"end":6644.734,"text":"國中2%高中只有4.1%普遍很低啊其他的國家鄰近的日本 韓國30歲以下國小教師的比例16% 11%新的人力不願意投入根據翻轉教育今年發布的青獅教育困境調查"},{"start":6645.795,"end":6671.662,"text":"還有38%的現職教師剛剛我們已經提到33%不願意進來接下來有70%不願意投入現在留下來的還有38%說在三年內要離開教職每年有15%的公費生寧願解約不跟你玩了請問市長我們的教育部有沒有體認到這些警訊"},{"start":6672.982,"end":6681.956,"text":"還在繼續當灌老闆繼續凹老師做功德以前是恐夫子啊現在變成恐功德市長你要不要回應一下"},{"start":6684.127,"end":6712.505,"text":"謝謝委員的指導因為第一個目前零有教師證的大概有67%都是在已經有在服務所以三層這個數據其實我們有提出澄清過那另外就是說我們在這一塊我想應該更主要的除了退休人員保障這一塊是一個但是我們怎麼樣讓限職人員可以留住留住老師願意投入這個行業我想這是我們目前更需要做的啦"},{"start":6712.845,"end":6735.92,"text":"所以在這一塊也謝謝委員關心校師會議未來的福利不是一個條件嗎已經答應的事情不能反悔不是條件嗎因為在依照大法官您認為我們教育部這樣子去調整去不支持我們的修法您不覺得就是在鼓勵年輕人不要投入這樣的事業嗎您覺得這兩者之間沒有關聯嗎"},{"start":6739.147,"end":6762.443,"text":"有沒有關聯福利有沒有關聯年金有沒有關聯有關聯嘛好啦沒關係這個我還是希望教育部重新考慮但是啊還有更嚴重的問題啊對不起市長我想您是很專業的我是真的要代替全國的老師要來講這件事回顧20年來基本工資大幅調漲"},{"start":6763.939,"end":6784.918,"text":"部長您知道2006年到2026年20年間我們的平均時薪漲幾%您知道嗎體察民意嘛你可不可以講一下基本時薪喔基本時薪漲幾%你知道嗎基本時薪不是教師的喔社會的狀態基本時薪漲幾%沒關係我補充給您197%"},{"start":6791.277,"end":6802.983,"text":"那您知道我們的國中我們的高中薪資漲幾%市長知不知道這個你應該要知道了吧漲幾%這35年來還不是20年35年來漲幾%漲幾%主席我時間暫停一下漲幾%我現在真的要落淚了35年漲幾%"},{"start":6822.101,"end":6844.27,"text":"35年了是否麻煩讓我們會後去查最近4年是漲了謝謝 謝謝主席 時間繼續喔我告訴您啦35年來國高中只調過一次國高中 國高中您剛剛可能有人一直在跟你講一些別的啦國高中啊 高中400塊漲到420塊國中360塊漲到378塊 我有沒有講錯"},{"start":6850.484,"end":6870.285,"text":"這個數字不敢跟市長講啊20年基本薪資漲197%國中 高中 漲5%在國會的殿堂 你的幕僚不敢告訴你啊市長你不知道 你萬事繁忙 我們可以體察"},{"start":6871.57,"end":6884.106,"text":"我真的是替喔 這些教師喔真的是感到難過啊這個漲幅喔 18塊18塊連一支原子筆在2025年可能都快要買不起了所以市長"},{"start":6885.529,"end":6909.387,"text":"我給您一個機會因為一直有傳言說教育部正在研議調漲教師終點費這是部長在總諮詢9月份的時候提到的但我現在很擔心因為你們連對這個數字都不清楚我想請您透露一下現在研議的方案到底是什麼因為照這個197%我們高中至少應該要漲到可能要漲到1000塊國中可能要漲到將近1000塊"},{"start":6915.785,"end":6934.313,"text":"現在研議的方案是什麼可不可以透露一下根本報告方向我們當然是希望能夠再拉高那至於說拉高的幅度它會涉及到政府財政的問題還有各類人員的一個衡評問題所以我們會整體的考量但是方向上我們是希望把它拉高"},{"start":6935.014,"end":6942.667,"text":"謝謝 不好意思我是真的是替教師感到難過啦所以希望您可以包含因為5%比上197%怎麼會有年輕人願意進來啦"},{"start":6947.078,"end":6974.501,"text":"那我覺得我們真的是要給世代一個機會那另外這個導師職務加給也是13年沒有調整這個我想次長你應該知道每個月只有3000塊那現在行政又很繁雜又有很多手機啦數位網路的服務啦這個提醒次長啦這個如果老師是社會的燈塔可不可以不要連蠟燭的錢都省給他們一個好的工作環境條件還有福利可以嗎"},{"start":6975.262,"end":6999.142,"text":"各級內容支付加息這塊也是目前也在評估的範圍內也希望能夠做適當的反應再拜託積極那另外還是有一些議題請教次長這個非常難過的消息其實是這個資通訊的這個不流通這個本席了解因為他這個在申請這個休學的時候需要做很多的這個實體申請"},{"start":7001.064,"end":7023.719,"text":"那這個電子簽章其實教育部沒有排除試用請問能不能加速大專院校試用電子簽章可不可以這一塊我們會來瞭解來處理不要讓這些已經非常辛苦了打工還有很多的工作結果他要實體的去辦理這些東西他可能沒有時間資訊的流通也很重要那最後跟主席爭取一點點時間"},{"start":7026.521,"end":7053.44,"text":"不好意思對 我馬上結束因為我們今天的委員很多好 我馬上結束這個青少年詐騙的情況112到113年是倍增那114年的第一劑呢是這個9000多人接下來有可能會再倍增那這個占比非常的高現在總受害人數兩成是青少年那這一點教育部有沒有掌握"},{"start":7053.86,"end":7079.66,"text":"有沒有要做一些更多的處理是 謝謝委員提醒事實上我們在每一年開學就會有為期一個月的校園友善安全中其中針對反詐這塊就是我們的一個重點那我們有一些相關的措施跟成果會後我們可以整體提供給委員參考好 謝謝 謝謝次長好 不好意思 謝謝因為今天真的發言委員很多所以才提醒委員們控制發言時間好 謝謝"},{"start":7085.663,"end":7086.244,"text":"好 謝謝接下來有請翁曉琳委員被質詢質詢好 這邊有請次長還有群術部部長群術部次長 歡迎次長請官員被質詢 謝謝委員好"},{"start":7112.299,"end":7134.578,"text":"市長兩位市長好那個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年金改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏"},{"start":7135.999,"end":7151.507,"text":"退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎"},{"start":7156.403,"end":7172.769,"text":"對 我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在"},{"start":7173.689,"end":7200.344,"text":"你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產"},{"start":7202.141,"end":7208.301,"text":"但是破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔最後支付的義務"},{"start":7210.253,"end":7231.819,"text":"請問次長兩位次長是吧是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個"},{"start":7233.479,"end":7254.663,"text":"跟所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的利益"},{"start":7256.024,"end":7275.363,"text":"那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落"},{"start":7276.184,"end":7297.41,"text":"那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革"},{"start":7297.91,"end":7314.722,"text":"那我認為這個是一個終止政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再回復權力得到相當的正義喔那麼所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是"},{"start":7318.897,"end":7334.583,"text":"我这边的话我要请教的就是这个怀次长你们在这里左计算右计算你们从一开始当时在推动退府基金的建制之初你们就说是采取不足额提拨"},{"start":7336.325,"end":7358.644,"text":"一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說我們政府會不足而提撥所以遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是 這個跟委員報告一下這個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果"},{"start":7363.468,"end":7370.506,"text":"充分的在補足這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應"},{"start":7371.394,"end":7396.396,"text":"我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情有為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯"},{"start":7398.833,"end":7423.56,"text":"因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億啊所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中"},{"start":7423.88,"end":7450.9,"text":"是 謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是政府完全不體諒他們然後打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面"},{"start":7453.041,"end":7468.82,"text":"其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整"},{"start":7469.321,"end":7489.91,"text":"那我根据这次卫福部的报告说近年来卫福部针对他主管的六项居今天性质的年金给付包含老年年金给付什么老年基本保险金遗嘱年金身心障碍年金等等原住民等等这些给付他们总共办理了三次给付调整作业105年的时候调整3.65%109年调整了3.97%113年则是调整了7.34%"},{"start":7498.533,"end":7523.559,"text":"可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了"},{"start":7525.518,"end":7543.593,"text":"所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎我跟委員報告喔因為他的那個基數 時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的 跟您報告"},{"start":7544.502,"end":7559.434,"text":"我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比"},{"start":7560.612,"end":7588.14,"text":"退休公教人員退休金他越退收他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情"},{"start":7589.209,"end":7603.414,"text":"好那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝謝謝王小林委員質詢官員請回座謝謝好有請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":7619.313,"end":7639.415,"text":"謝謝專業美麗的召委有請我們教育部的副次長還有我們全區部的副次長有請副次長還有副次長兩位次長談這個退服尤其是公教這樣的一個制度"},{"start":7640.256,"end":7658.218,"text":"站在每一個人的立場裡面講法都會有所不同可是你用更一個宏觀的一個角度去看的話你會得出一個大家都比較講不出來的一個答案也到現在來看的話是大家一直在傷破腦筋"},{"start":7659.372,"end":7670.486,"text":"基金它本來就是一個水庫啦它本來就是一個水庫啦你退休的人多領的話你債值的人你就必須要來補這個水庫這兩位次長我想這樣講應該是對嘛"},{"start":7672.714,"end":7690.157,"text":"那你說本來這樣的一個水庫裡面你可以去維持到2045年,那結果因為今天提這樣的一個修法以後,你提前到2040年,它就沒幾天了嘛,沒幾天了。那關於我看今天這麼多委員提出的一個版本裡面,"},{"start":7691.229,"end":7709.695,"text":"那包括我看幾個在野黨的一個方案裡面就兩個手段一個目的嘛你停止逐年的調整所得替代率那第二個是退休金你減緩消費者物價指數影響而縮水那將指數正負5變成正負3在我來看"},{"start":7710.915,"end":7739.32,"text":"這個其實會把我們前面所推動的這樣的年金的一個改革過去不管誰執政大家認為說年金再不去改革的話一定會破產那你就摧毀把以前過去年改的一個基礎到底會不會有世代不爭議的問題這其實很簡單啦你如果是看以現在以退休的人來看的話你會覺得他變成掃零啦對他來講是不爭議啊可是你如果站在一個大水庫的立場來看的話那變成說現在在職的人那到最後我一直貼錢一直貼錢到最後一起破產"},{"start":7740.578,"end":7746.642,"text":"會有這樣的一個問題所以是不是你們簡短來說明一下你的立場到底是怎樣是 跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障"},{"start":7767.395,"end":7792.652,"text":"那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討"},{"start":7794.494,"end":7804.808,"text":"在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法"},{"start":7806.589,"end":7830.284,"text":"這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嗎那任何人發動這場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題4至7、8、1、7、8、2、7、8、3"},{"start":7833.346,"end":7853.786,"text":"把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數"},{"start":7855.067,"end":7870.519,"text":"第一就大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦"},{"start":7871.039,"end":7896.653,"text":"大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是同樣貼紙所以啊"},{"start":7900.154,"end":7923.705,"text":"我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去"},{"start":7926.363,"end":7936.871,"text":"你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一直改革下去說本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊是延緩而已啊 延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你政府財政你強加嘛你政府還要貼錢嘛 大家要去加稅嘛"},{"start":7948.248,"end":7964.415,"text":"水龍頭水不能轉出來不是這樣說那個次長 懷次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的機制讓學校的調查程序更完備"},{"start":7965.875,"end":7979.474,"text":"也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌體罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強"},{"start":7981.096,"end":7999.853,"text":"但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣"},{"start":8000.903,"end":8018.588,"text":"這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件"},{"start":8019.068,"end":8048.848,"text":"那我要請教教育部了就是說那關於這兩種說法看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是 謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的"},{"start":8049.248,"end":8068.35,"text":"第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎"},{"start":8069.171,"end":8079.939,"text":"其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行"},{"start":8080.768,"end":8100.387,"text":"今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校事會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮"},{"start":8101.488,"end":8121.815,"text":"那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較符正的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員長好 謝謝那麼我們謝謝鍾委員"},{"start":8128.325,"end":8139.995,"text":"那麼我們先做會議程序的宣告待會在林一錦委員發言完畢之後因為差不多到11點我們先休息5分鐘然後之後再請委員們繼續的來質詢那麼首先先請林委員謝謝主席有請全序部懷次長好有請懷次長委員早"},{"start":8158.732,"end":8177.068,"text":"市長早我想民進黨政府推動年金改革為的是就在讓年金的制度永續的經營保障年輕的公教人員在退休後都可以領到退休金也確保每個世代年老時都能安穩無虞的生活"},{"start":8177.728,"end":8197.874,"text":"所以國民黨現在的這種反年改的行徑其實真的是反其道而行它會讓放任財務的缺口越來越大其實是真的負責任那我們來現在檢視一下現行的公教退府基金面臨什麼挑戰如果依照退府基金最新的第九次的精算報告"},{"start":8198.934,"end":8209.919,"text":"公務員退府基金破產的時間已經從2049年提前到2045年那教育人員的退府基金的破產時間也從2045提前到2042那為了彌補這個財務上的這個缺口喔所以我們現在還在積極投入預算來做撥補"},{"start":8218.803,"end":8236.271,"text":"那當我們努力在搶救年金的同時那國民黨卻拼命製造年金的破口所以要請這個次長說明一下國民黨今天的這樣子的反年改的這個惡法是不是會進一步加速年金的破產"},{"start":8237.666,"end":8255.137,"text":"跟委員報告就是說如果說我們照目前的提案內容來看的話因為我們要停止調降那停止調降事實上在未來因為我們原來是到118年我們預期本來到118年不管是公務員的部分或教室的部分大概還可以再回頭挹注基金大概2700多億"},{"start":8257.058,"end":8276.398,"text":"這部分這個當然就會就沒有那當然這個那因為你調降以後那不但沒有進來那當然你這個就因為我們調降後這樣就等於是說支出的部分要相對增加那當然對我們整個基金的那個財務的壓力當然就會增加更多那這個大概是一個那另外一個部分說如果你要再隨從現職人員待遇調整的話"},{"start":8277.919,"end":8304.918,"text":"那這個部分就被造成說限職人員的待遇如果跟退休人員的待遇太接近因為您也知道限職人員部分是繼續在工作嘛那如果說我們這個太接近的話老實講人的本性一定想說那我如果差沒多少我幹嘛那麼辛苦還繼續工作那會引起那個早退的這樣跟事實上跟大概目前包括我所知道的包括即使在像在中國大陸他們也在希望的延後那個退休的整個趨勢是不太一樣這以上簡單報告"},{"start":8305.859,"end":8327.199,"text":"好 那如果真的要解決問題喔我想現在當然就是所謂的如何撥補這個年輕的缺口嘛那我們知道說現在的撥補策略分10年跟20年那當然正在老師們的立場當然期待說國家採取10年的方案喔那能在更短的時間投入這個充分的資源"},{"start":8327.759,"end":8343.514,"text":"不但也降低風險 促進這個基金的穩健也同時會對老師 對基金比較有信心那國家其實必須付出的總預算也會比較少那可是我看了一下明年度的預算 行政院"},{"start":8344.775,"end":8362.503,"text":"依照第九次精算報告是要分20年撥補的金額來編列那誠如剛剛本席所說的越快補足退伏基金的缺口那總額就會越少所以再請教次長說明一下明年度的預算還是採20年撥補的考量是什麼"},{"start":8364.744,"end":8381.185,"text":"那困難是什麼跟委員報告 事實上我們在112年由部裡面跟教育部我們有開過一個會議我們當然是希望20年撥補那在112年 希望20年撥補沒有沒有講錯 希望10年 抱歉抱歉這我口誤 希望10年撥補"},{"start":8382.046,"end":8403.508,"text":"但是因為國家的預算編制權你也知道這是屬於行政院的權限那我們有提出這樣的一個想法那這個部分最終還是要由行政院跟主席總書這邊來做那我們在115年部分已經大概編列了大概218億的部分未來在預算審查的時候也敬請各位委員給我們支持以上報告"},{"start":8404.451,"end":8432.446,"text":"那我當然可以理解就是說我們中央政府有很多的政策事務需要很靈活的預算來運用可是本席還是強調採10年撥補這是對基金的永續當然也是對中央財政支出最有利的方案所以以後再來明年度的這個應該說下一個年度的預算編列的時候是不是再來努力來改採10年撥補的方式我們會繼續爭取我們都一直都有在爭取"},{"start":8434.388,"end":8452.947,"text":"提高撥補 謝謝好 那我們談撥補那麼多喔 其實如果這個修法通過的話 其實還是一場空因為你之前二修才化法那從中央拿走4165億喔那當然這個我要請教次長 這個你覺得對退伏基金的撥補的規劃有沒有影響"},{"start":8455.029,"end":8470.119,"text":"不好意思因為我並不是財政這方面預算的那個想當然一定會有影響嘛因為整個中央政府的這個財政規劃那好那今天今天這樣子來來修法那我想某個程度啦"},{"start":8470.359,"end":8490.817,"text":"一定是全盤打亂了我們撥普的策略就像你們在下一個年度要爭取十年撥普或許又因為財政整個狀況的這個雪上加霜的局面所以我想這個還是要請次長再努力一下就是說下一個年度既然明年已經二十年撥普的計畫那是不是在下一個年度往十年比較健全的體制去走"},{"start":8491.787,"end":8501.852,"text":"我們會繼續爭取謝謝市長主席我現在先請人事副人事長張張副人事長謝謝請張副人事長我想談完退休人員的權利我要替在職老師說說話所以跟人事總處來探討一下軍公教員工待遇審議委員會欠缺受僱者參與會議代表的問題"},{"start":8521.166,"end":8547.908,"text":"就像是全國教師會他被排除在外被排除在這個軍公教員工待遇審議委員會那我們知道說其實這個薪資這個部分有僱主跟受僱者之間的溝通機制的完備會比起我們立法委員直接透過立法權來調升軍公教的薪資待遇會更符合所謂的憲政秩序也對國家長遠的發展會比較有幫忙"},{"start":8548.849,"end":8566.919,"text":"那軍公教的薪資2018年調薪3%2022年調薪4%2024年調薪4%2025年調薪3%這些都是實質薪資的增加那不只是最低薪資的調升我們很清楚喔 政府是有誠意來照顧軍公教人員"},{"start":8568.4,"end":8579.743,"text":"但因為調薪相關機制欠缺受僱者參與喔那這樣的好意就會被打折所以我覺得這個軍公教員工待遇這個調整的議題的座談會你在這個軍公教員工待遇審議委員會之前會辦一個調整的議題座談會"},{"start":8590.106,"end":8617.595,"text":"那這個也都被一般的教師團體認為說這個就是行李如意的年度大拜拜摸頭大會罷了啦所以我是不是詳情地詢問一下說是不是可以納入受僱者就像類似說教師就是全國教師會的代表那你公務人員可能就是公務協會的代表之類的來參加這個待遇審議委員會那如果不行的話那你那有困難度在哪裡"},{"start":8621.724,"end":8644.017,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想這個議題就是朝野很多委員都在關心我們過去也都做了說明現在調新的機制是有制度化來做處理包括剛剛委員提到的在我們會有一個跟軍公教團體的相關的這個諮詢會議我們這些意見也都會在我們給這個"},{"start":8649.9,"end":8665.969,"text":"行政院的這個方案當中 會把這些意見通通如實的呈現 那個會議紀錄也都會在我們的官網上面 既然是如此的話 那為什麼就不讓他們進來 你說如果全國教師代表"},{"start":8666.929,"end":8688.367,"text":"你這個審議委員會其實人很多所以你多一個 兩個 三個代表其實都不能對於這個會議的決定有什麼樣的關鍵性的因素可是 他們就是有一起參與不用你之前在辦一個所謂座談會來諮詢就直接納入在這個審議委員會一起來討論嘛這個有很困難嗎"},{"start":8692.025,"end":8720.516,"text":"跟委員包括我們也是朝這個方向在努力所以我們這個法治正法案方案就是把我們在職的這個基層的代表納入那現在就是還在排審當中好 那請再努力啦這個某個程度讓收購者跟這個顧者有效的這個溝通才是我們未來最有利的方向啦 好不好OK 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"},{"start":8721.072,"end":8723.01,"text":"好謝謝林委員好那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9036.806,"end":9038.388,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會那接下來請張雅玲委員發言謝謝主席我們有請詮釋部好請懷次長"},{"start":9061.044,"end":9082.905,"text":"委員早好 次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國 兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣"},{"start":9083.826,"end":9101.576,"text":"那左邊我們也可以看到歐規哲老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實"},{"start":9102.557,"end":9126.116,"text":"不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音 小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代 多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都已經在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說"},{"start":9126.977,"end":9140.97,"text":"好像的確中國比較好尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅"},{"start":9142.071,"end":9157.293,"text":"我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務"},{"start":9158.837,"end":9175.427,"text":"那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範"},{"start":9176.408,"end":9191.022,"text":"对 因为他如果没有兼行正职他就不算 对不对好 那接下来就是我要跟你讨论的地方就算因为在我们现在公务 教务人员他教育人员并不属于公务人员的一个服务法可是他同样是领我们国家的薪水同样是拿我们纳税人的薪水"},{"start":9192.003,"end":9221.563,"text":"那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉"},{"start":9221.903,"end":9222.026,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9223.018,"end":9252.058,"text":"教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們的教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部"},{"start":9253.792,"end":9278.971,"text":"謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國等等對 我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢"},{"start":9280.692,"end":9298.806,"text":"我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況"},{"start":9300.367,"end":9320.253,"text":"那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛委員展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是就法治"},{"start":9320.473,"end":9336.231,"text":"國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整啦"},{"start":9336.451,"end":9360.936,"text":"好 所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退府金是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好 那再下一個問題我快 下一個問題就留全序部就可以了"},{"start":9362.062,"end":9380.575,"text":"教育部請回 謝謝這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補"},{"start":9381.596,"end":9410.573,"text":"才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的"},{"start":9410.973,"end":9427.364,"text":"所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零"},{"start":9429.646,"end":9451.305,"text":"教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金"},{"start":9455.288,"end":9484.475,"text":"那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們節約前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作"},{"start":9484.935,"end":9501.651,"text":"都会有一些争议嘛就增加那个收益的部分所以让我们基金会比较大那如果这样的话等于就是停在那个地方而且我们还要再多支出以上我想确认一下我之前读到报告是说大概可能在提前三四年就会见底了是吗这是正确的吗对对对好那我有一些建议我觉得就是说"},{"start":9502.392,"end":9514.993,"text":"我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個"},{"start":9516.881,"end":9531.267,"text":"抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化"},{"start":9533.308,"end":9562.018,"text":"第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募 留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答"},{"start":9562.298,"end":9578.751,"text":"我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右"},{"start":9579.972,"end":9596.384,"text":"我們未來還會持續來爭取希望行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI 正負百分之五就算你沒有達到正負百分之五四年我們一定會檢討"},{"start":9597.185,"end":9612.855,"text":"所以一定會檢討就對了對 這兩個機制都同時存在那我們事實上已經從實施新制退休補給以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右了解好 所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了那我簡單最後一句話做個總結"},{"start":9615.516,"end":9638.304,"text":"就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到 領得久 領得安心 謝謝好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝張委員那接下來我們請羅廷偉委員發言"},{"start":9646.789,"end":9653.971,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請教育部 朱長赤好 請朱次長程序部 懷政次"},{"start":9655.177,"end":9679.159,"text":"還有人事總署張副人事長我們城上剛剛有委員特別關注老師的言論是否中立那我想剛剛他所提到的案例是媒體採訪甚至是網路應用那我們也很關心剛剛我們的朱常志有提到老師的言論應該要中立 是嗎"},{"start":9680.487,"end":9693.139,"text":"教育基本法我們教育本來應該就本中立的立場剛剛委員所提到如果對於這個言論有所偏頗應該對於整個退府的機制上應該給予一些制度上入法給予懲罰"},{"start":9694.488,"end":9721.047,"text":"那我想問一下有老師對於在野黨的立委批評甚至是直接在課堂上給予這個影片教學帶入偏頗甚至是對於他自己的個人批評去攻擊在野黨的主席黃國昌甚至是在野黨的立委你覺得在教學的課堂當中帶入這樣子的一個影片甚至是這樣的言語他中立嗎 請問"},{"start":9723.095,"end":9742.97,"text":"各位報告 我想學校的環境還是要回到學術專業的考量那教育亦負如此所以有關個案的部分如果有我們都會請學校去了解實際狀況是如何我想這個時候就說是個案那我要講的是 PIMPLE 的言論應該要有統一的標準不要兩套標準"},{"start":9743.61,"end":9767.933,"text":"那对于自己的政党有利益的话我想就给予宽限我想这是不对的应该对于教育上我们都是要一视同仁的中立给予孩子更多元的客观的角度让孩子能够多元学习而不是给予偏颇的一个概念那我想我们都认同年金改革的出发点是为了让制度更公平财务更永续但是改革不能够只有财务账"},{"start":9769.114,"end":9793.957,"text":"還要顧及人性帳還要教育現場的運作帳我想教育部過去的說明107年的修法目的在於矯正企資的年齡偏低替代率過高甚至基金的準備不足等問題其能兼顧基金穩健跟退休的合理性然而實際情況跟初中完全背道而馳"},{"start":9794.918,"end":9804.171,"text":"教師延後退休整體年齡的結構快速老化心血進不來教育的現場新陳代謝逐漸停滯您認為這個新陳代謝停滯對於整個教育現場有幫助嗎"},{"start":9811.377,"end":9840.619,"text":"跟委員報告其實教育永遠是有進有出應該就是像活水一樣所以這幾年我們也包括在最近我們都在鼓勵地方政府先要釋放出來政治老師的職缺因為少子化影響當然 我們是鼓勵但是教學現場就是停滯教育部統計整個資料的顯示40歲以下的國小教師至100學年度從48000多人降至113學年度"},{"start":9841.44,"end":9860.823,"text":"是26000多人短短11年间减少超过44%反之50岁以上的教师从9455人增加到35487人征服是近三倍也就是说100学年度"},{"start":9861.804,"end":9881.983,"text":"約有一半的教師在40歲以下但到了113學年度僅剩餘27%50歲以上的教師比例則從10%上升到35而且最近我們也看到許多的一些報導3303所公立的國中小"},{"start":9883.464,"end":9902.027,"text":"人缺少了1429位的代理教師我想現在不是用少子化來說我們對於現在的整個制度都非常關注我也要問請問一下教育部我們現在的代理教師的終點費什麼時候要給予應該給予的待遇"},{"start":9902.968,"end":9919.802,"text":"根文報告針對教室的終點會不會因為過去確實調整我知道有調整但是實際就是不夠事實上跟不上所以目前我們已經有在會朝希望能夠拉高那也在考量到不同校內職級的部分做一些規劃"},{"start":9920.623,"end":9940.252,"text":"我希望能够有更具体的刚刚您对于校事会议有一个很具体的回应对不对我们都希望看到这个具体的改善但是对于终点费对于教师 代理教师还有这些老师给予的应该的特殊的加给这些都是我们一直在长期争取的我想另外提到一个问题"},{"start":9940.652,"end":9967.982,"text":"那就是退休金的本質是政府作為雇主依契約與法律給予公教人員工作報酬是勞動所得的一部分而非福利或特權當公教人員依法完成了服務年限後退休給付應受到合理的保障而不是成為政治操作或財務調整的犧牲品我們主張退休停止金是停止整個逐年的遞減"},{"start":9968.942,"end":9992.358,"text":"是作為主要的訴求並非要回到107年以前的舊制而是希望幫忙整個基層的公教人員減少在職與退休公教人員的實質損失恢復制度的合理性跟信任感反映出基層的教育人員對於政府的誠信公平原則的最低期待"},{"start":9993.098,"end":10021.238,"text":"我想另一方面整個退伏基金管理的績效問題是不容忽視的一個課題我們因為全序部現有的資料退伏基金過去20年年化的報酬率僅約2.76%明顯低於多數基金的平均水準我們要請教三個問題第一退伏基金20年的這個報酬率只有2.76這樣的績效全序部"},{"start":10022.27,"end":10027.934,"text":"認為滿意嗎我想現在您所提供的數據跟我的數據有一定的差距但是我看到的是20年的報酬率我們要整個攤提嘛那現在基金報酬率這麼低有沒有檢討過管理問題你覺得很高所以不需要再做任何的檢討 是嗎"},{"start":10053.431,"end":10071.263,"text":"跟委員報告這個2點多我們沒有這個數字因為我們的年平均就是從成立以來也超過5%以上會後我拿我的數據我們再來互相的探討但是我想問你現在所提供的數據你認為已經達到了一個水準還不需要再精進嗎"},{"start":10072.954,"end":10093.686,"text":"當然各種經濟的方式都還是要持續這個當然一定是永遠收益率是沒有一個天花板的我想所有的公教人員都在反映現在的所謂的基金到底是不是所謂的多繳少領大家心中都有一把尺那教育部你認為呢"},{"start":10095.037,"end":10120.836,"text":"虽然退府基金非教育部所掌管但你也是等于这些老师的大家长之一你认为怎么样跟我们报告刚刚其实怀生长真没有提到这近几年的一个基金的净值事实上是增加了快5000亿所以在这个部分我们当然是期待可以更好我想教育是国家的一个根本"},{"start":10121.636,"end":10141.985,"text":"年金改革只看到數字忽略人心跟教育現場的活力就失去了改革的一個初衷那我呼籲政府在檢討制度的時候應該要回到永續公平的一個原點正是教育現場真實的變化兼顧人性專業到信任整個制度的合理"},{"start":10142.785,"end":10160.291,"text":"刚刚你们所提到的一个数据我非常乐于的跟你们在做后续的探讨也希望全区部教育部我们相关的数据以及真实教育界的一个反应我也会持续的一个追踪跟做一个探讨然后也把相关的一些澄清来转交给你们"},{"start":10160.811,"end":10185.56,"text":"另外我想請問一下 親韓生繳不出一萬八罪樓的一個相關事件今天教育部也在現場 想請問一下台中一名大二學生因為家中親韓要辦休學卻被學校收取一萬八的學雜費而因為休學受阻而選擇親生的一個事情我想台灣高等教育的一個場域仍由親韓學生"},{"start":10186.641,"end":10190.793,"text":"因經濟困境面臨休學仍需繳交學雜費的結構性障礙"},{"start":10193.425,"end":10217.17,"text":"社會的個案再次顯現高教在弱勢生的一個輔導跨部門的資訊整合跟緊急協助的一個機制上漏洞我想學校的學務處跟教務處橫向溝通的一個失靈反映校內系統為整合學生的經濟家庭特殊的一個狀況比如當學生有學後學的意願學校有沒有了解為什麼要休學"},{"start":10217.91,"end":10237.219,"text":"然後休學的一個狀況學生的狀況輔導的機制以及任何一個環節能夠及時的留意諮詢輔導轉介經濟救助就可以避免這一起案件的發生那教育部目前對於此類的事件有什麼樣的一個具體作為"},{"start":10238.031,"end":10253.898,"text":"根文報告這件事情真的是很令人遺憾其實只要學校有多問一句我想這個問題都可以解決所以以目前我們對於清函學生來講除了學雜費減免第二層還有總統的我們拉近學雜費方案"},{"start":10254.658,"end":10280.481,"text":"甚至就學貸款這個部分是有三成這樣的一個保障債這個案子比較可惜的就是說在辦休退學的時候就像我已經講的在橫向連結是有瑕疵的這個部分下一步我們已經在禮拜五也再一次通行各個大學校院在一個身份的勾肌若是學生一旦有這個狀況怎麼來處理這個勾肌的處理以及如果有涉及到退費的時候學生有困難"},{"start":10281.101,"end":10308.835,"text":"學校要啟動急濫救助的方式是可以免收或是減收我想這個部分我們都已經有要求大學要落實我希望真正的落實狀況要有追蹤啦不要只是作為一個文字的回應我們希望這樣的事件是發生以後呢要有想辦法具體的一個改革作為希望教育部應該要追蹤以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝羅委員那麼接下來請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":10321.991,"end":10327.143,"text":"好謝謝主席有請諸次還有懷次好有請兩位次長委員好"},{"start":10332.405,"end":10360.646,"text":"兩位辛苦年改不走回頭路我想過去大家都說公務人員是鐵飯碗剛剛很多委員也都垂詢到那現在招募不易我想我們如果連現職公務同仁的鐵飯碗都照顧不了沒有辦法保障他們應得的退休生活那如何有更強的競爭力向新的世代來招手呢所以我們要很嚴峻的來面對"},{"start":10361.647,"end":10388.644,"text":"公教退府的樓地板事實上除了是公務現職人員大概八成左右的規模跟收入我們更要來比公教的退府的樓地板事實上是非公教人員的天花板在跨職業別我們不只對年輕世代不公平對非公教人員都需要國家照顧"},{"start":10389.565,"end":10414.372,"text":"的這些國人更是情何以堪所以我們今天我的質詢我們就來看看公平正義在哪裡2018年改上路之後成效看得見世代有保障確實透過我們的改革充實了財政的水位也達到了基金的永續所以都如我們過去的規劃合計到現在挹注了3800多億"},{"start":10417.333,"end":10438.183,"text":"而整個基金的運作永續性也比原本即將用盡來延後了他的基金永續的年限好我不贅述下一頁這是手上我這一厚厚一本是你們第九次的精算報告其實有很多值得關心的委員甚至我建議所有提案的委員都應當細讀"},{"start":10439.964,"end":10461.879,"text":"如果當這些提案的在野黨的委員細讀了這一本精算報告之後我認為他們都會回去重新思考他們提出來的反年改的法案是不是正確的我們這個第九次精算報告兩個結論第一個公務人員的新制財政缺口需要逐年撥補就是我們走在正確的道路上"},{"start":10462.719,"end":10487.624,"text":"第二個制度的變動呢如果有委員要提案修正的話真的需要有完善的財政評估跟配套的裁員而不是說停就停喊咖就喊咖所以我這裡很清楚的數字都來自於這一本諸次你還有幾年退休報委還有13年那你剛好就面臨那一"},{"start":10489.905,"end":10514.436,"text":"可能会用尽的那个年限因为如果喊卡的话教育人员的退府基金可能会在13年后就用完了而公务人员可能会到16年怀次你应该资深一点您应当退休的年限短了一点您还是相对有受到保障的那个时代是吗"},{"start":10516.585,"end":10532.542,"text":"因为我已经做了42年了是但如果说像诸次比诸次更年轻的世代可能在未来不管公或教如果我们年金破产的话谁都领不到就完全不公平不正义下一页"},{"start":10533.843,"end":10552.062,"text":"而我們當時在年改的修法就已經一致的去考量退休金的彈性調整機制就是跟隨著CPI的指數 正負5%還有至少每四年都要英語檢討 對不對那個懷次長 我們有考量所以這五年來的退休金調漲 應當有6%了吧"},{"start":10555.886,"end":10583.633,"text":"這都是為了配合物價來進行定期合理的檢討我們都希望保障退休人員的權益所以在年改的時候我們對於現在委員們在修法的時候說物價調升啊這個飛漲啊通膨啊其實當時在修法我們都一併的考量了更何況任何的物價的波動是所有的世代所有的職業都在面對嘛"},{"start":10584.861,"end":10601.511,"text":"對不對 下一頁所以民間呢 金明聯就出來倡議年金制度不換寡 而是換不均金明聯說 如果公教年改要再修至少要等全國老人都能夠月領八千"},{"start":10602.732,"end":10630.191,"text":"這是最起碼的生活照顧等全國老人都月領至少有八千以上政府再來啟動公教的年改因為我要再次說我們身為中華民國的立法委員我們要照顧的族群不是只有公教的退休人員我們要一併的照顧全職業各種十三類年金制度的所有國人"},{"start":10631.231,"end":10655.967,"text":"這才是我們的責任下一頁這一頁我們就用退休金比一比退休金比退休金喔這個是做出來的教育人員平均退府每個人領五七九七三 五萬七 將近五萬吧公務人員平均可領是五零六五六 就是五萬出頭"},{"start":10658.857,"end":10675.106,"text":"這是公務人員的地板啊但是都遠高於勞保可領的人的天花板我們有勞動部的代表勞保勞退的平均可領的月退縫是25479"},{"start":10678.148,"end":10705.153,"text":"連公教人員的一半都勉強達不到更不要說老農津貼的天花板是81108000塊國民年金不到4000元這就是為什麼金明聯在倡議如果公教要改那讓全國的老人有8000的退休金保障再說這就是退休金比退休金"},{"start":10706.505,"end":10716.112,"text":"下一頁如果跟現職的人員比一比其實有一個核心的命題所謂公教人員的"},{"start":10717.765,"end":10743.547,"text":"基本生活維持的那個線要在哪裡才合理如果以主計總數一口之家二口之家三口之家四口之家都是兩萬五到三萬六之間的支出月領五萬以上的公教退休金絕對很難說他沒有辦法維持基本生活對不對兩位"},{"start":10745.287,"end":10766.567,"text":"更不要說最低生活勞動未還未扶不所列的所以月齡五萬的退休金生活真的很難在台灣的現今社會我當然希望政府能夠保障的更多更好但是如果以主計總數的支出來比較的話我們看下一頁"},{"start":10768.598,"end":10777.167,"text":"又以退休生活跟現役的年輕世代領的跨領域的薪水這一頁來比這是主計總處的資料"},{"start":10780.35,"end":10803.2,"text":"剛剛說的教育人員月領五萬七起跳公教人員退休月領就是五萬起跳換言之教育人員的平均月退的年薪是大概七十萬左右這個七十萬左右的退休縫一年其實遠超過全台各年齡壽星者的一半以上"},{"start":10804.799,"end":10815.133,"text":"這是用退銷金比現役人員跨領域現役服務的壽星階級的比較所以我今天要說的是"},{"start":10816.55,"end":10833.541,"text":"到底一個基本的生活的那個線在哪裡才合理才合理好最後一頁我講到那個投資的那一頁剛剛有委員我再用30秒就好不好意思剛剛有委員說退府基金的投報率只有2%有這個數字嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":10837.654,"end":10858.277,"text":"至少年平均的投報也有5%對不對來次長你再說一次我們大概三年的收益率是8.88那是五年的話是9.36那十年是6.94所以平均average都是5%以上三年 五年 九年以上都是"},{"start":10860.398,"end":10881.283,"text":"8% 9%以上嗎所以我也算了我就是以這一本請委員問證的時候把資料讀清楚我以你們這一本第九次精算報告年改的節省加上投資這十年幾乎是倍翻的翻倍的我甚至剛剛聽您講說現在有一兆一千多億了是嗎我的資料是一兆873億"},{"start":10883.343,"end":10898.036,"text":"換言之我們投報是成長在這十年成長了這個破是成長95%所以我們要把訊息講清楚錯誤的訊息在質詢台上絕對要清楚的導正我們希望"},{"start":10899.417,"end":10921.349,"text":"節約增加政府的撥補然後透過資息債券或者是投資能夠提高他的投報效率讓我們這個母樹這個pool可以更大更保障所有公務同仁而這幾年來95%的這個pool的資金基金的累積這是事實所以如果年改喊卡了"},{"start":10922.95,"end":10948.385,"text":"喊COLOR 錢滾錢喊COLOR 它在複利的時代就是為基金本來可以正向的貢獻更多的投報的成果現在反而大幅的破一天所以今天透過這個質詢我知道週四還有公聽會再一次期許向社會喊話我們對於所有退休人員的照顧保障要一視同仁"},{"start":10949.185,"end":10975.524,"text":"我們不可能只單為某一個族群的退休軍來做更多的挹注然後我們的老農們我們的勞工朋友們真的是最值得我們去關切的一個世代希望所有委員提案的時候我們真的能夠理性討論不可為者絕對不要強行為之辛苦兩位 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10978.886,"end":10981.989,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員那接下來請郭育晴委員發言好 謝謝主席有請懷次 主次好 有請兩位次長"},{"start":11008.025,"end":11028.27,"text":"兩位市長早安我想今天其實我們要探討的這個問題因為教育文化委員會當中其實我們一直不斷的在關心教師的一些權益的問題但是這一次其實我們看到這個我們的退府條例的一個修正的版本大部分都是尤其是當中的37條38條67條"},{"start":11032.651,"end":11056.886,"text":"那我想這是教職人員退休制度當中要維繫整個所有的公平性同時還有基金永續性的一個核心的條款但是我們看到這套的一個設計其實也經過我們整個所有的年輕的改革審慎評估的一個結果這是兼顧了退休教職員的生活的保障跟退伏基金的長期穩健對吧"},{"start":11058.359,"end":11076.298,"text":"好 但是現在我們看到有多位的這個在野黨的委員喔他們也提案要來做修正那雖然是打著說因應這個物價的上漲然後要照顧所謂的這個高齡退休的人員的一個旗號但是實質上的一個內容我們看到的卻是逗退路啦"},{"start":11076.838,"end":11094.204,"text":"真的是改革倒退而且是破壞了制度的平衡的一個風險這是我們必須要考量進去的那我想一直以來我剛剛提到在教育文化委員會當中我們其實不管是在第一線的老師的關心或者是現在大家關注聚焦在所謂的教師會議對老師的衝擊"},{"start":11095.965,"end":11120.765,"text":"甚至在許多的資源充足的六都當中我們老師是招不滿的一招再招甚至帶領教師的部分這都是一個非常重要的一個警訊我想連現職就像剛剛吳志耀委員提到的連現職的教師我們的權益都沒有辦法給予他們充分不管是精神上的保障或者實質上的一個保障我們現在要來"},{"start":11122.423,"end":11139.617,"text":"照顧所謂的高齡退休人員那當然我們必須說我們當然願意提供這樣子的一個照顧但是我們也要審核我們自己本身的財政的一個負擔是不是也會引起其他族群的不滿這個其實是我們要去傾聽更多的一個民意啦"},{"start":11140.097,"end":11155.637,"text":"那我想呢如果在整個所有的財政的壓力跟勞工的對比之下甚至還有其他的一些族群會引發所謂的勞工看不下去我們的財政也吃不消這種兩種雙重的一個窘境雙重的一個問題我想呢"},{"start":11158.34,"end":11171.213,"text":"就算所謂的這個教職人員他是屬於軍公教的一個體系那相對來講他的福利他的穩定或者他完善的一個退休機制其實也是比較其他的族群要來得更加的優渥"},{"start":11172.369,"end":11194.08,"text":"但是這在社會的觀感上面我們不忍不防也會擔心到所謂的人家會質疑這越照顧越不平衡會有這樣子的問題產生所以其實如果要把教育體系單獨拿來修法那會不會引起因為過去我們知道軍公教其實是一體的喔"},{"start":11195.06,"end":11219.912,"text":"那其他的如果軍工是不是也要同步的調整但是如果軍工也同步的調整這整個所有的制度的公平性會不會遭到質疑那在這裡我想請教一下我們的這個懷刺的部分那我想這一次我們看到他們修法的內容是要排除113年後逐年下降的所得替代率的一個規定"},{"start":11221.673,"end":11237.359,"text":"但這個有沒有可能會讓我們的退幅基金財務壓力瞬間變大我們的退幅基金會不會入不敷出這個部分有沒有評估過請教一下 白癡如果照目前這樣的提案修法的話"},{"start":11238.299,"end":11265.061,"text":"會讓原來像教育人員部分他會提前到129年就會那個基金就會用慶接下來就是說因為我們停止調降那停止調降因為這次還包括公務人員部分那每一年可以節省下來的退伍就回憶到我們退伍基金的經費如果到118年那我們大概會減少大概2700多億的部分進入到我們的基金大概會有這樣的一個情形"},{"start":11265.461,"end":11285.311,"text":"好那另外呢就是也有委員提案說這個退休金啊要隨在職人員的本薪調整來重新計算那我想這個制度會不會也導致照這樣子的版本來講如果這樣子的一個制度真的先行下去的話我們的年輕負擔會不會快速的惡化"},{"start":11286.636,"end":11309.202,"text":"因為我們限職人員他是在工作所以他調薪的思考的因子是跟退休的部分是不一樣所以我們在現在的設計上面是CPI上下5%就進行調整或者就算沒有這樣的部分的話大概每四年也要進行一次的檢討調整過去我們大概已經有調整過兩次分別是2%跟4%加起來是6%"},{"start":11311.075,"end":11338.695,"text":"但現在他們提案要調降喔調降到3%上下3%甚至到2%他們就要來調整這個會不會讓我們的這個基金的財務不確定性更增加這個會 那我也跟委員報告一下因為我們這個不管是目前我們現狀第一層年金跟第二層年金包括國民年金 那個勞保等等都是用正負5%來做調整那如果說我們單獨的公教部分"},{"start":11339.235,"end":11367.157,"text":"把它減少的話 恐怕這個要省省來思考好 第四點我要質疑 我要請教一下這個諸次囉有委員甚至提案說要刪除直接刪除六十七條直接刪除六十七條或者是取消超過百分之五必須經過立法院同意的這樣子的一個程序實質上讓行政部門單方面來決定這個支出的增加這會不會削弱我們國會監督的一個權限我想請教一下我們諸次你怎麼看 你贊成嗎"},{"start":11369.388,"end":11384.91,"text":"我想因為陳土剛剛委員提到的有關於整個退府的一個調整他事實上可能還有涉及到其他不同職類的人員所以如果有國會適當的監督我想這是也是應該是必要的"},{"start":11385.33,"end":11387.771,"text":"好 我們再次強調我們樂於這個討論如何讓退休的教職員在物價上漲的一個壓力之下獲得合理的一個保障這我們樂見看見但是要維持制度的一個穩定跟基金的永續這才是我們的社會共識"},{"start":11401.357,"end":11420.851,"text":"那另外呢其實我可以建議就是我們行政院跟權序部是不是整個可以盤點整個軍公教的這個退府機制讓所有的有系統的一個調整而不是個別來做修補會搗亂我們的整個財政永續的這樣子的一個障礙跟困難好以上謝謝兩位好謝謝委員謝謝主席是謝謝郭委員好那接下來我們請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":11428.578,"end":11446.19,"text":"好 對 我們先處理會議時間那上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止好 請開始好 謝謝主席請教育部次長好 請朱次長我也請我們的權敘部次長好 請懷次長"},{"start":11452.389,"end":11471.58,"text":"我先請教教育部就是這兩天大家非常關心的就是在一個清涵大學生他辦休學之後因為一萬八千塊錢的學雜費他選擇了輕生剛才也有委員來請教育次長但是我看次長所講的話"},{"start":11473.26,"end":11491.808,"text":"比如說如果學校多問一句恐怕就不會發生或者說這個橫向聯繫有疏失感覺我們教育部看待這件事情千錯萬錯好像都是第一線校務人員的錯但是在制度面"},{"start":11492.708,"end":11517.847,"text":"如果碰到這樣的一個清寒的學生不管他是需要救助也好或者是他因此而要辦理休學也好除了在我們第一線比如說這件事是學務處跟教務處橫向聯繫確實失靈但是在制度上我們教育部可以做任何的補強嗎"},{"start":11519.409,"end":11546.184,"text":"是 謝謝委員提醒其實我們現在也有在思考上次趙偉有跟我們指導就是說在他從高中升大學的時候因為我們對於中低收青函學生都有一些學長費的減免如果是過去在高中有被介入或是一些處遇性的學生我們也有相關的一個資料我想這個部分我們應該更主動的而不是只有仰賴學校的一個橫向連結所以這一塊我們會來加強"},{"start":11548.741,"end":11572.668,"text":"對 除了這個橫向聯繫就是學校的第一線的部分要加強之外其實包含剛剛講的他從高中升大學他是不是仍然具有這樣期函學生的一個身份或者是其實我們不管是這個大學公私立大學其實都有很多相關的救助而且應該讓所有的學生所有的學生都了解"},{"start":11573.188,"end":11591.922,"text":"都了解說事實上當他覺得他走上一個絕路的時候其實只要他願意提出是可以得到有人伸出援手的所以我覺得這一點就是說可能很多學生他的一個資訊的落差跟封閉所以我才說在制度上我們怎麼樣讓校園的捕獲網不要每一次在檢討的時候就會變成只是推向第一線的學校他們處理不當"},{"start":11603.05,"end":11607.152,"text":"所以我覺得以後不要再發生這樣的事情請教育部能夠有一套比較清楚的這樣的一個制度另外我想剛才也有很多的委員去詢問到我們這一次的對於退休教師不管是他的退休金應該按照消費者物價指數聯動"},{"start":11629.685,"end":11645.05,"text":"現在可以看到各個委員可能他有2%、3%、5%各個不同的版本但是他的出發點動機都是基於對於這些退休的教師們在整個物價上漲的過程裡面能夠讓他確保他的生活"},{"start":11650.572,"end":11656.557,"text":"那另外大家都提到其實每一次從年改開始啊就在講說哎呀這會讓我們退府基金破產啊這是讓我們的這個政府財政更加惡化其實我聽到這些話我都覺得這是政府的推脫之詞為什麼"},{"start":11669.207,"end":11692.876,"text":"我們已經講過 比如說台電 台電現在的虧損不就是錯誤的能源政策嗎那只要你改變這個政策 台電就不需要一年虧兩千億 三千億啊我們整個這次的年改下來一億住到退府基金 這麼多年來退府一住多少 也不過兩千多億啊你台電一年就會虧到兩千億以上耶"},{"start":11693.436,"end":11717.622,"text":"一年就要虧到2000以上另外 剛才我就在我們的隔壁國防外交委員會 質詢什麼呢我們國界國照海昆號一個海昆號 花將近500億新台幣500億 到現在仍然沒有辦法交件可是同一時間 日本的這個蒼金號下水"},{"start":11719.903,"end":11737.738,"text":"148億不到150億所以我說我們幹嘛這樣子浪費納稅人的錢我們直接跟日本買好了又可以下水而且呢這個它的造價遠遠低於我們的造價我說算一算你要造7艘可以節省將近1800億"},{"start":11740.12,"end":11768.779,"text":"可以節省一千八百億然後我們這樣一直搞一直搞一直搞花這麼多的錢還不能刪喔不要說不能刪還不能動喔所以我覺得這一點呢事實上我覺得不要再每一次用這種方式用這種方式好像一副你對於這些退休教室或退休公教人員好像他們就是拖垮政府財政你怎麼不去檢討這些我剛才以上所述的另外一個喔市長有一個很重要剛才特別提到為什麼對不起市長 下一步市長"},{"start":11770.3,"end":11786.514,"text":"很重要為什麼大家提到要讓消費者物價指數去連動退休的教師我現在講現役的教師現役的教師我們每一年消費者物價指數要漲多少"},{"start":11787.475,"end":11807.218,"text":"我們的導師費我們的高中以下的導師費已經連續動漲13年之久啊所以為什麼大家不想當導師當導師其實責任很重大我不用再贅述了最近的教師荒"},{"start":11808.559,"end":11837.333,"text":"其實就已經非常明顯年輕人也不想投入就算拿到教師證他也不要再去徵事了好那所以如果說我們其實我們照顧退休老師我們也應該去看現在的第一線的老師他碰到什麼樣問題導師費動漲13年所以我想請問一下教育部這是很多我們的教師團體爭取教育部有沒有要"},{"start":11837.933,"end":11863.663,"text":"準備研議改善是 謝謝委員的指導我想不僅是只有導師費包含幾位委員在關心終點費的問題目前教育部我們都已經有在評估了而且我們方向上是希望能夠爭取到支持把它調高那這塊我們現在也在收集意見跟考量校內不同職級的部分我想這塊是教育部教育部要期期 我告訴你"},{"start":11866.604,"end":11884.873,"text":"明年教育部的預算是不是少很多是不是少很多我們都說窮不能窮孩子窮不能窮教育 苦不能苦孩子結果教育部因為國防的經費大幅的提高結果你們教育部相對的你看國教署就少了138億"},{"start":11886.374,"end":11914.411,"text":"所以我要講的是我們其實應該花更多的資源在教育上而像我剛才說的你說終點費也是一樣導師費也是一樣現在真的像代理老師有很多代理老師現在嚴重缺乏願意代理一定現在可能代理十年以上啦然後代理老師還要去當導師對不對那薪水就已經很微薄然後導師費一個月只有三千塊所以"},{"start":11916.312,"end":11943.813,"text":"我希望能夠你有一個期程你明年是不可能增加是嗎你現在還要等一年 一年多我們其實經費的部分會減少其實不是我們使者減少而是因為財發法的一些分配問題但是如果說我們一旦決定要能夠調高導資費跟終點費的話我想教一步我們自己內部也會盡量沒有 所以次長你認為應不應該調高"},{"start":11948.835,"end":11955,"text":"如果以我個人來講我身為三個小孩子的爸爸當然希望導師人這麼辛苦我是希望能夠盡量幫他們爭取"},{"start":11956.488,"end":11978.528,"text":"對嘛我覺得如果大家大家都覺得應該要調了實在是時間那麼久不調不合理的時候我覺得應該做就要做該花的錢這個是我們該花的錢好嗎我們會積極來爭取好不好我還是很希望說即便明年的預算沒有但是我們想什麼樣的方法"},{"start":11980.969,"end":11991.974,"text":"來讓這些第一線的導師能夠他們得到合理的一個酬勞好不好好謝謝委員知道好謝謝王委員那接下來請范雲委員質詢朱次長好有請朱次長"},{"start":12008.01,"end":12029.058,"text":"主持長剛剛王委員問到教育部減少的經費您應該要說清楚是因為財化法地方增加了很多錢教育原本就我們教育法規是地方事務過去是不足的部分中央補助那些少的部分以後教育部要講清楚是地方增加這麼多的經費"},{"start":12030.038,"end":12053.783,"text":"那應該該地方出的就是地方出好不好不要就是說變成魚目混珠說是國防預算排擠了教育經費不是 是因為真的是財化法的關係那我今天想問的一個題目是跟今天這個就是退休金有關的那我訴求就是不要讓追溯期的限制阻礙學生時期遭性侵者追尋正義"},{"start":12055.323,"end":12083.635,"text":"要先跟大家讲一个故事2022年我跟赖品瑜跟人本基金会开记者会因为当时我们发现有一位狼师他在学校50岁就退休了他在退休前曾经在台中台南很多所国小教书侵害多名学生情节重大到我讲一个最轻的其中最轻的情节是午休的时间下令同学都脸朝下趴着睡"},{"start":12084.335,"end":12098.219,"text":"在以健康教育為由摸女學生的胸部甚至整個伸到衣服裡面摸其他的情節有興趣看的可以自己看我的PPT更嚴重的情節還有是多個學生受害後來"},{"start":12100.826,"end":12120.983,"text":"受害者成年之后出面指控找到人本基金会跟我们然后学校性评会在调查之后确定性侵害成立决议终身解聘那问题是我想次长你应该知道这个郎师因为他已经退休这个处分"},{"start":12122.256,"end":12135.471,"text":"居然沒有辦法有任何的影響他每個月也可以繼續爽領退休金各位朱次長您覺得這樣子對當年的受害的學生後來勇敢站出來之後這樣子是有公道的嗎"},{"start":12136.668,"end":12159.695,"text":"根本報告據我了解目前在退伍條例八十條裡面針對於如果經過我們校園性平會調查涉及到性侵害解聘的部分應該是會致死去追回他的退休金所以您認為應該受性平會解聘的應該要收回退休金"},{"start":12160.935,"end":12175.047,"text":"那是針對現值那如果已經退休的呢像這個案例退休的我們也是追回啊現在1到80條應該4到追回所以市長你也認同追回退休了也要追回"},{"start":12176.168,"end":12200.469,"text":"那好那現在我就告訴你我們現在的法規有個部分跟您講的不一樣如果是在職教師一教師法14條被解聘的話就失去教師資格立刻取消退休金如果是退休教師只有在就是沒有超過追溯期的時候司法判刑確定才能夠就是第80條沒錯剝奪並取消退休金"},{"start":12204.472,"end":12224.21,"text":"今天像我剛講那個案例因為他已經過了刑法追溯期雖然學校的調查成立而且也把他象徵性的解聘可是他還是爽領退休金所以朱次長你非常認同我的講法那是不是我請教育部研議一下"},{"start":12225.211,"end":12252.862,"text":"那既然有人要修這個就是關於退休金的是不是也能夠在這個機會中就是研議一下第80條在判處有歧途性以上之行確定者把這個空間留下來對於就是已經超過追溯期沒有辦法就是在法律上得到一個公道可是學校的行政判斷然後地方局處都認定應該要就是還是"},{"start":12254.402,"end":12276.77,"text":"取消他的教師資格者那是不是能夠有真正的處罰他取消他的退休金呢是 謝謝委員的建議我想因為目前針對校園性平事件的處理學校不管在學校或教育部我們都有一個很嚴謹的過程所以說雖然他不屬於那個形式的確認判決"},{"start":12278.371,"end":12299.504,"text":"但是因為他也是經過相當嚴謹過程我們應該可以來演繹針對這已經過了刑事的輸送期但是確實有就是行政調查確定我們是不是可以來啟動而且就已經取消他的教職員資格那也應該要處罰好嗎那這就是第80條規定的那是請多久之內可以給我一個報告呢"},{"start":12303.402,"end":12323.736,"text":"是不是委員我們有三個月時間我們來收集資料研擬然後提出比較完整的可不可以加速兩個月好嗎兩個月好兩個月好那我們等您喔我們來就算是沒有趕上這一波這一條我們單獨我相信教文委員都會支持可以修好不好我們來努力是好好謝謝好謝謝范委員謝謝委員接下來我們請林倩琴委員發言"},{"start":12341.345,"end":12369.017,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們翁朝偉我先請我們全序部是不是我們懷次長我要請懷次長文豪好 次長您好本席今天要針對這個還是公教的這個退府條例來做一些請教那針對這個退休職員的基本生活保障本席這邊提出一個重點就是說政府是不是能夠及時因應"},{"start":12370.557,"end":12389.968,"text":"這個概念很重要今天大家對於公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例修正有迫切的期待其中一個很重要的原因就是要建立物價聯動及時調整退休金的制度這不僅是技術性質的一個修法也是制度正義的一個落實"},{"start":12391.128,"end":12407.458,"text":"近年來物價上漲的壓力大家都可以感受得到今年基本工資調漲就已經超過了4%現值的軍公教人員調薪4%國民年金也調整了7.34%對退休的公教人員而言"},{"start":12407.938,"end":12422.314,"text":"通膨的每一個百分比都在削弱整個實質生活的能力那麼對靠固定收入生活的退休老師而言這不是只有抽象的數字而是每一餐的米價跟每一罐藥的開銷"},{"start":12423.735,"end":12452.119,"text":"所以政府在去年初曾經表示退休縫調整是於法有據甚至在預算中也編列了44億元但是還沒有實施沒有執行那導致退休人員與現職之間的差距越來越大信任也隨之流失那部長 對不起 次長本席在這邊強調退休金的調整不是福利的擴張而是大家對制度信賴的一個維持"},{"start":12453.42,"end":12466.456,"text":"當現職人員的薪資隨物價或經濟情勢調整退休人員也一再停滯這樣的制度設計顯然不僅是有失公平而且還欠缺完整"},{"start":12467.937,"end":12487.468,"text":"當然大家有很多不同的計算跟比較的方式本席在這邊也要提醒每一項的退休的設計不能平行的跟不同類別的職業來做比較因為信賴保障原則是在大家簽訂契約的同時就已經存在"},{"start":12489.53,"end":12501.104,"text":"所以在中央發布的消費者物價指數累計成長率達正或負5%時規定政府應該於一定期間啟動調整"},{"start":12503.246,"end":12522.285,"text":"本席這邊提出來一個概念就是本席認為三個月就應該很恰當的來做一個處理因為剛才本席講的重點是有沒有辦法及時因應所以這邊請教次長您第一個部分是過去兩年退休縫的調整評估會議開了幾次具體的結論更為何"},{"start":12526.169,"end":12553.729,"text":"第二個部分是那麼目前掌握的CPI累計成長率已經超過了調整的門檻政府是不是可以先依既有的權限來啟動暫行的機制保障退休人員的生活第三個部分是權序部是不是應該主動與主計處考試院之間的協調管道是不是有更明確還有更積極那麼未來可不可以建立立即即時調整的一個制度"},{"start":12554.849,"end":12562.013,"text":"是不是請次長這邊簡短的跟精準的回應本席剛才所講的問題那簡單來講就是說過去我們曾經分別調過2%跟4%合計調整過6%"},{"start":12570.777,"end":12585.093,"text":"但是這個調整它是需要一點時間因為三個月這個我跟委員報告因為每個調整都是涉及到那個預算經費的問題那你如果在預算年度中的話除非說有一個法條譬如說它可以"},{"start":12585.894,"end":12612.169,"text":"從什麼經費裡面挪起來不然的話每一年預算編列下來我們都要反映在下一個年度因為這年度的預算是沒有這個預算它依照我們預算法或相關規定它就是不能再執行好的 謝謝次長這邊也提出來這樣一個問題所以本席講的這個概念你們也可以列入一下考量也就是即時因應這樣一個概念那如果您覺得三個月有點窘迫那你們覺得應該是什麼樣子大概多少的時間依據這幾年你們調整的跟"},{"start":12615.091,"end":12634.428,"text":"沒有辦法因應的部分你們再去做一個計算那我想在未來也可以就這個部分即時的因應好不好我想這是目前比較關鍵大家感覺很窘迫的一個問題那麼是不是也可以請你們說明那剛才本席有幾個問題你如果來不及回答的是不是可以書面給本席一個回應那包括您剛才講的2% 4%那這個總數呢有沒有"},{"start":12638.652,"end":12655.063,"text":"跟我們現在整個的這個物價的指數你覺得在平行的部分是不是有達到解決大家問題的一個因應那可不可以請你明確說明你是不是支持整個修法納入限職人員的一個聯動條款那第二個部分"},{"start":12655.683,"end":12679.397,"text":"如果沒有修法 那現行體制下能不能就剛才本席所建議的三個月來做相關的啟動程序或者是你們能不能先做一些規劃就未來您所講的這個情況如果有發生那你們可以怎麼因應好 第三個部分是那麼未來是不是願意建立明確的檢討時程跟公開透明的評估機制那這個部分是不是請次長也是簡短的回應"},{"start":12680.477,"end":12706.603,"text":"我簡單報告一下第一個跟限職人員調整的部分我們是比較不建議不建議的理由是說因為限職人員調整它有很多複雜因素我們退休人員這部分的調整在現行機制下就是用CPI跟民事聯監討一次另外一個情況是說限職人員待遇跟退休人員待遇本來他們跟退休人員的幾戶它是兩個不同的思考如果你跟限職人員待遇勾在一起的話"},{"start":12707.923,"end":12735.299,"text":"那就會鼓勵人家找退人家會覺得說我如果縣市裡面跟退休人大約是很接近那我為什麼這麼辛苦要來上班這都需要在我們HR上面我都建議要比較市長您剛才講的這兩套系統那你是不是給本席比較細節性的一個相關的資料本席所這邊講的就是即時因應的這個三個月是不是請你們也列入思考這樣可以解決比較即時性的一個問題"},{"start":12735.799,"end":12754.37,"text":"委員我們會後再書面給您做比較細的那個說明好的 謝謝好 謝謝委員 指導 謝謝那我可不可以很快的請教一下這個教育部就是也很快請教然後及時一個提醒那麼次長您好謝謝最近在這個那個次長 懷次長您可以請坐好 謝謝"},{"start":12756.38,"end":12765.465,"text":"近期在國立台灣戲曲學院因為姓平的案件有一些處理的延宕結果教育部這邊必須有一些因應因為你們凍結了相關的補助所以他們對一些主管的懲戒"},{"start":12772.888,"end":12787.236,"text":"但是大家都有點普遍質疑為什麼始終不作為都要教育部直接介入他們才會有一些動作目前我們在看待這個問題本席這邊提出來不曉得您教育部觀察的一個看法"},{"start":12787.896,"end":12814.757,"text":"就是說目前校長公開遴選看似大學自主但是常常大家都為了連任而又有一些不好處理的這個事項那這樣一個制度不曉得你們有沒有觀察到是不是這樣一個原因的影響而導致這種個案的一個出現那本席這邊做一個提醒那是不是這一次戲曲學院也可能是一個整體的縮影那之前其實你們可能也提出了一些"},{"start":12816.218,"end":12835.556,"text":"一些建議但是一直到你們出手以後那才有這樣子的解決所以這個不作為的結果不是只有個案上的一個帶墮那對整個學校的這個性平啊或者是師生的這個權益可能都有一點影響所以本期要請教的是那你們要不要全面檢討校長的任期"},{"start":12836.698,"end":12851.736,"text":"那本席這邊有一個建議啦你們可能了解以後然後再試試看就是說六年的擔任制那不得續任有沒有可能這樣子看法您可以研究一下然後給本席一個相關的這個報告嗎"},{"start":12853.318,"end":12876.24,"text":"這樣最主要是希望不要為了要連任然後有很多這些沒有辦法處理的那或者是如果要連任那還是這個過程當中他所做的事情是不是有某一些可能的積分等等當然有一些學校的自主啦那教育部這個部分是不是可以也做一些調整或者做一些KPI的一個設計那您的看法是"},{"start":12878.162,"end":12895.357,"text":"我們會後可以給評估報告給委員這邊做參考那確實以這個案子來講校長據我了解校長是還蠻積極的想去處理這件事情可是因為整個教評會它是個合議制所以校長在事例上那是比較辛苦"},{"start":12895.937,"end":12924.268,"text":"但是教育部我們因為已經有祭出我們凍結的一個這樣的政策工具之後這個案子最後確實有完成依照性平法該有的處分跟懲處我想這塊委員的建議我們也會評估給委員參考本席是從這個個案看到一個整體的這個問題那可以你們就這整體的一個概念是不是做相關的一個討論跟研究然後會後給本席一個相關的報告那三個月可以嗎"},{"start":12924.628,"end":12931.45,"text":"麻煩三個月之內提供報告給林委員好謝謝那麼接下來我們請黃金斌委員發言謝謝有請這個教育部諸長次然後群聚部兩位次長還有我們任總委員好"},{"start":12958.884,"end":12973.602,"text":"三位早安我想公教人員是這個國家重要的根基一輩子都為國家跟現在大家付出因此我想照顧他們的晚年我想不但是國家跟政府的承諾更是義務 三位認不認同"},{"start":12975.072,"end":13000.251,"text":"認同好 謝謝不過我想民進黨政府一上台之後他就翻臉不認人大砍公教年金所得替代率逐年減少1.5%這對公教年金他是極大的不尊重更是違背我們國家政府的這個承諾尤其在現在物價年年飆漲的年代這對於退休年來講這影響非常大甚至影響在晚年的時候會危及他的基本的生活"},{"start":13000.831,"end":13019.091,"text":"那今天司法法治委員會安排這項會議審查我們公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例的修法草案本席認為這是一個很重要的開始那停砍公教人員退休的這個所在地守護他們的權利跟晚年的生活這是慈愛的正義那我想也是這個國家必須要還給他們的公道"},{"start":13019.631,"end":13035.02,"text":"那本席還有其他國民黨的這些很多委員都提出這個修法的版本我們希望之後的逐條討論的時候能夠並案一起來審查我們也希望不分黨派的委員都能夠理性的來討論那本席也強調公教人員穩定的退休制度絕對他不是不是特權"},{"start":13035.86,"end":13055.605,"text":"而是這個國家跟公教人員定下的契約精神本席再次強調 那是契約精神那也希望教育部跟全區部務必要跟我們公教人員站在一起那 而不是跟執政黨在一起一定要全力來守護我們公教人員應有的權益那接下來我想要針對我們偏鄉的問題來跟我們任總這邊來進行討論我們請任總委員好"},{"start":13061.024,"end":13079.892,"text":"正好那個根據媒體報導我們這幾年那個公教人員的報考率逐漸下降可是離職率越來越高這代表什麼代表越來越少人願意留在我們的公教的職場那在偏鄉更是嚴重像台東的公教人員短缺跟流動的頻率都很高像"},{"start":13080.692,"end":13105.583,"text":"像那個情車台東整個服務員廣大那交通啊生活機能都不比西部跟北部造成很多公務人員公教人員都一樣就一定年資服務一滿之後他就會選擇離開台東縣變成一個新兵訓練中心一直在換人一直在換人那本市在立法院也多次的爭取這個一定要提升我們台東地區公教人員的家籍目前台東的東台家籍每個月是多少錢600"},{"start":13111.462,"end":13124.16,"text":"630 630從民國79年到現在都沒有調過各位清楚這30年的物價變化多大六百三以台東縣的整個服務員廣大的情況來講630塊他連一個月的油錢他都可能沒有辦法負擔"},{"start":13125.442,"end":13154.822,"text":"那我想這個真的是要很好要請好好思考一下東部的特殊性那我們行政院目前有推這個各級機關學校公教人員工作地域加級合理化調整方案本席在主張是說這個部分中央一定要挹注更多的資源我們研議我們怎麼樣讓來台東這些服務的不管是工人員或老師他願意留下來而且優先喔這個事情是從本島就從台東優先來做起"},{"start":13155.442,"end":13171.751,"text":"因為我相信全台灣很多地方跟台東一樣那台東是更明顯的因為其實坦白說我們自己本席從台東上來的不管是距離啦交通方式啦跟離島其實沒什麼兩樣所以這部分要請任總這邊來協助那這邊是不是可以來研議一下"},{"start":13173.633,"end":13182.082,"text":"委員 其實我們任市長對台東很關注他去台東很多次 我都跟他翻臉過他對台東是很關心的東台家族是比較早一點的規範現在是稍後第一家族來做處理所以委員是很內行的"},{"start":13197.358,"end":13215.037,"text":"就是他已經挪到第一家族在做處理那第一家族我們也做合宜化方案讓地方可以彈性一點看他能不能把它做大一點做彈性一點然後讓這個偏鄉 偏洋其實台東"},{"start":13217.059,"end":13232.775,"text":"是我們面對太平洋的前端不是後方我們是很努力的在做一塊做這一塊不只是在台東的縣政府相公所的公務同仁我們部會在台東其實"},{"start":13234.176,"end":13256.506,"text":"也有一些同仁在那邊 也都受委員的照顧這個我們都會一起去做考量副市長你也知道說以台東縣政府的財政情況並不是這麼聰明很多東西真的都需要中央幫忙我們可以幫的部分我們就一起來努力啦謝謝 那是不是請副市長這個在一週內將提報研議的方式給本席辦公室 好不好我會趕不來"},{"start":13259.168,"end":13261.93,"text":"謝謝副省長也謝謝三位謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝黃委員那就一個月之內提供報告給黃委員參考那接下來請武力華委員發言"},{"start":13287.163,"end":13306.659,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部 朱次長還有權敘部 鄭淑芬 退福斯司長還有行政院主計總署的基金預算處 謝謝好 麻煩請列席官員上台 謝謝"},{"start":13309.093,"end":13328.256,"text":"好 三位長官好本席其實一直以來都有在關心關於教職員或公務人員的一些權益多年來來到立法院也經常遇到一些單位團體會來辦公室跟我們討論"},{"start":13329.637,"end":13354.093,"text":"那我自己曾經在上一屆就是112年的時候有參與過公務人員退休子序撫恤辦法第39條以及公立學校教職員退休資金撫恤條例第98條的修法那總統呢也公告了那之後就是說要一退撫基金財務精算的結果來分年編列預算來撥補"},{"start":13355.854,"end":13378.989,"text":"但是上路以來其實像以全教總來講他們其實是感到還蠻失望的所以我也有就這個部分來找三個部會一起的討論那我其實還是要講因為這個退府新制上路之後它最大的差別就是它現在不進入大水庫它是屬於個人專庫制"},{"start":13379.99,"end":13408.544,"text":"所以呢這個基金撥補更顯得重要那大家的擔憂也是說之前已經有年改的經驗說會破產那如果不按照這樣子做那未來是不是還會面臨二次年改這樣的一個可能性所以其實我們的第一線的公務人員也好或公教人其實他們都非常的擔憂那我在這裡呢就是想要問一下因為如果說要依法來做"},{"start":13409.304,"end":13438.345,"text":"退府基金委員會的第八次精算報告他是這麼寫的他是說每年至少撥補194億元要20年那權序部這邊是更細就是提到說分10年會怎麼樣分15年會怎麼樣分20年怎麼樣所以看起來最優最省最好的方案是分10年撥補因為可以減少"},{"start":13439.125,"end":13452.277,"text":"少花710億元那教育部的部分我倒是沒有看到但是我想先請教一下就是教育部 權序部就是這個部分114年就是撥補的狀況"},{"start":13455.035,"end":13468.792,"text":"根本報告因為根據精算確實我們需要如果是分10年是1360那如果是分20年是1660那我們現在今年的部分我們是有編的74億明年會有92億以後92億來投入撥補"},{"start":13473.226,"end":13488.828,"text":"那請問一下92億是分幾年我們目前是以其實部裡面我們是希望爭取用10年但是目前是以20年的方式所以是用20年那請教一下那個全序部"},{"start":13490.605,"end":13515.562,"text":"這個部分因為新制上路以後我們部裡面是一直希望都是爭取用10年的撥補歷年都是用10年的撥補方案去編列概算但是因為國家有它政策支出的決定所以目前也是跟教育部一樣在今年經過核列的額度是用20年的方式來編是核定為120億"},{"start":13517.043,"end":13525.535,"text":"好 那聽起來就是教育部 權序部都是希望用十年好 那請教一下那個主總"},{"start":13531.149,"end":13552.036,"text":"因為最後也是就是整個財政最後盤點的結果那就是因為這個就是我們持續撥補那但是考量到E5的整個支付的狀況還是採用20年部分就是所以意思就是說合計的話是如果用20年"},{"start":13554.272,"end":13560.876,"text":"所以20年這個狀況是在明年會發生嗎20年撥補是明年的狀況嗎後年呢那我剛才聽到的是說因為財政的問題我們財政有問題"},{"start":13571.282,"end":13583.957,"text":"因為最後15整個盤點最後的稅入稅出的結果部分那這部分我們先用20年的基礎來做談題那明年就是每一年的那個財政收支會不一樣那可能還是可以再做滾動的"},{"start":13585.219,"end":13610.484,"text":"那我再請教一下因為我們修法之後他是寫說因一退府基金財務精算結果接續分年編列預算撥補現行的退府基金是嗎我們修法是這麼寫的條文是這麼寫的所以現在是因為退府基金委員會的精算報告是說因每年至少撥補194億元達20年是按照這個嗎"},{"start":13618.492,"end":13647.61,"text":"這部分還是有分三種那我最後還是用20年的部分先來那請教一下後年呢這可能還要看明年籌編總預算的時候再一起考慮所以我們其實沒有辦法因為修法之後有一個固定的數字有一個固定的做法是這樣嗎修法的部分可能如果說法是明定的話那當然是依法"},{"start":13648.314,"end":13651.537,"text":"那現在怎麼辦 那我們未來到底該怎麼做好 那沒有關係 因為時間的關係我只是說 我們希望能夠按照精算的一個數額來撥補因為好不容易就修法啦 總統也公告啦"},{"start":13676.619,"end":13685.57,"text":"那這個部分我是希望說這個部分因為我們有看到114年編列194億就是公教的部分120億教師的部分74億那就是採20年的撥補所以我們希望說這個撥補數遠遠的不足"},{"start":13695.862,"end":13713.593,"text":"那我們也希望說為了要防度未來就是因為這樣修法那就是為了要防度破產的可能避免二次年改我們還是要求說希望我們的主總能夠正視這個問題那也能夠提出一個報告可以嗎至少讓我們了解你們未來的做法"},{"start":13723.154,"end":13743.181,"text":"好那我回到今天排審的主席再給我一分鐘那因為我們最重要的修法重點就是要按限職人員的待遇希望能夠調升提高然後也希望按物價指數來調整所以我想要請教一下就是教育部還有組總就是對於基金的財務狀況會有沒有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":13748.693,"end":13766.151,"text":"確實如果說要做調整他必須還是會考慮到整個基金的一個財務的問題還有跟現值人員的差異的問題以及他是不是有一個保障合理性的問題所以這三個部分都要一併做考量"},{"start":13766.431,"end":13789.353,"text":"因為其實如果按照這兩個訴求像加薪3%嘛然後按著物價指數調整都是很正常的啦那重點是小小的調整大家會大大的有感啦所以我是想說就這個部分可不可以提供一個影響評估的一個書面報告就是主總跟教育部還有那個主總跟教育部可以嗎"},{"start":13791.115,"end":13810.907,"text":"是 委員是針對兩個部分對 針對修法的重點可以嗎至少我們要知道他的一個影響評估報告可以好 謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝委員謝謝吳委員接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":13823.884,"end":13851.459,"text":"主席有請我們教育部還有前系部還有人事行政總署委員好大家辛苦了這個今天談這個公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例這個我們必須去回顧這個剛才有民進黨的立委特別提到"},{"start":13853.67,"end":13877.588,"text":"這個馬英九總統過去也提過年金改革年金改革的方向或是怎麼樣去改革其實是有很多種面向我們就並不是說因為他講過所以現在的現在的法律是他支持的不是這樣我們來看"},{"start":13879.998,"end":13908.904,"text":"當初蔡英文上任之後成立了國家年金改革委員會邀請了各專家學者包括我們行政機關各機關的專業人員各院各部會都有開了20次會議20次不是小數字開了20次會議當時的行政院跟考試院"},{"start":13910.185,"end":13934.23,"text":"根據陳副總統召開主持的國家年金改革委員會20次的會議我再強調一次20次的會議然後你們提出了當時的行政院跟考試院提出了公務人員退休撫恤法的草案在106年3月30號但是呢"},{"start":13940.814,"end":13968.773,"text":"很遺憾的當時的立法院因為民進黨絕對多數竟然是依段宜康委員的等委員民進黨的委員的提案來通過是依民進黨的立委我是在現場段委員有怎麼了解這些嗎當然不是就大砍就對了"},{"start":13971.38,"end":13989.68,"text":"国家年金改革委员会20次的会议然后行政院考试院送来的草案是小砍那后来是大砍就这么简单所以怎么样要把它回复过来这个是我们必须作为一个"},{"start":13992.264,"end":14021.756,"text":"回到現在的話怎麼樣能夠回復到當時國民最起碼是國家年金改革委員會這麼多的專家學者各部會各院而且開了20次的會議這是一個部分好我們看一樣有關公立學校教職員退休輔系條例今天要談的這個部分也是一樣行政院也送來了"},{"start":14023.391,"end":14049.935,"text":"審查的時候這很複雜很簡單就是再砍當時的立法院民進黨記憶多數再砍就是這麼簡單依民進黨團再修正綜藝條文通過也就是現行的這些法例以及相關的這些附表"},{"start":14051.184,"end":14077.416,"text":"所謂的替代力就是按照民進黨團的他就是在大砍這裡面有簡單的做一些對照我們以40年的年資來講就公立學校教職員的退休輔系條例附表3主要重點就是附表3當時行政院的版本用16年"},{"start":14079.485,"end":14104.298,"text":"到最後16年是62.5%當時立法院通過民進黨團團的修正條文11年所以前面就要大砍就是這麼一回事就以30年的年資來看也是一樣要16年才達到52.5%提早到"},{"start":14109.113,"end":14122.138,"text":"民進黨談的修正再修正動議條文是提早到11年52.5%52.5%當初的行政院版本是第11年是57.5%57.5%我們看這個40年年資的行政院版本當初第11年是67.5%"},{"start":14137.332,"end":14163.18,"text":"民進黨再修正動力調整是62.5%很簡單就大砍而已啊他們哪有那麼專業絕對沒有那麼專業就是大砍比例再大砍縮小年限就這麼簡單所以我們應該要怎麼樣再回復過來應該的應該的就是要好好的提出來"},{"start":14165.39,"end":14194.1,"text":"不然的話陳副總統當初召集了這麼多的專業人員各院各部會所討論出來的所以這個部分我們要去好好的去說明所以這個部分是我們應該要繼續在今天的審查以及未來的審查都必須要盡力的部分這個是我們讓真實的回顧好不好"},{"start":14195.41,"end":14196.912,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝鄭委員 那接下來我們請賴氏寶委員發言"},{"start":14208.415,"end":14232.64,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部的長官 權序部的長官兩位次長 還有人事行政總署的張副總人事長三位長官兩位次長 還有副人事長因為我時間很短 所以我只有一個問題就是教育部的長官要不要跟我們講一下現在已經砍了七年了吧"},{"start":14234.113,"end":14257.567,"text":"這個stop here而且現在來講的話我們一直講國民所的瓦占都瓦占你照顧等於說這個政府現在很奇怪照顧全部除了要公教人員就公教人員手不軟這個我們可以想一想你可以想一想原來我們普發現金1萬的時候行政院都硬了不發執政黨團不發到後來通通要了"},{"start":14264.69,"end":14283.753,"text":"以現在來講的話你清楚看得到我剛才在提案說明我就講了我就講了到現在為止如果加上明年度的話加上明年度我們給勞保的撥補有5000億左右請問交易部的市長我們年金"},{"start":14285.634,"end":14311.725,"text":"這個公立大學的公立學校的教職員到今年底這樣子可以要砍多少下來砍多少下來我也是講比替代率的比例還是不是 金額 全部金額金額 對 對 節省多少你都不知道啊 你都不知道啊 在這裡要講啊 省多少嘛 省多少錢嘛省多少"},{"start":14314.437,"end":14321.124,"text":"省多少一山一山不止一山了三千里左右了多少省下"},{"start":14323.221,"end":14345.329,"text":"從開始107年到現在我們107到現在已經回補一柱1321不是有3000億嗎教育人員的部分教育人員的部分是13211321教育人員1321就砍了1321對不對難道你不站在教育人員的一個角度上這個未來可不可以不要砍了"},{"start":14346.309,"end":14372.645,"text":"就這麼簡單一個訴求 我們多少委員提案就這樣子STOP HERE 七年呢他原來是十年嘛 對不對我們就少三年 物價上升其他的所得 其他的都一直漲這是一個訴求這個教育部 照理講應該替教育人員講話對不對結果我們看到其他的部會都是替他們部會相關人員講話獨獨教育部也不敢講也不知道為什麼你要不要講一下"},{"start":14376.745,"end":14393.423,"text":"跟委員報告 因為維持現行規定應該是相對限職跟退休人員是一個比較永續的做法什麼叫永續 你們說如果這樣子的話會提早破產3到4年 請問那是民國幾年的事情"},{"start":14394.454,"end":14412.273,"text":"民國幾年會破產129現在多少 11415年以後的事情我們很多人不知道15年還在不在咧你要考慮15年以後的事情這個東西我覺得這個東西太抽象太空泛而且非常不實際的現在來講你看那個潛艦幾百億"},{"start":14417.885,"end":14435.819,"text":"這個潛艦快變成這個爛尾艦一樣這樣子潛 這樣子炸 這樣子滑七年來如果你是一億三多一年就兩百億左右一年差不多兩百億左右 對不對兩百億可以不可以就不要再砍了就是這樣而已啊那你用其他的什麼理由說啊 這個是永續啦是什麼之類的"},{"start":14437.16,"end":14461.845,"text":"我覺得沒有說服力啦沒有說服力 你們的報告裡面也寫啦你現在寫啦 說現在平均他的所得是5.8高於主計總書公佈的這個經常性薪資4.6那是去年囉 今年不止 今年5萬多囉今年已經5萬多囉已經5萬多 你要不要調整今年已經5萬多了"},{"start":14464.671,"end":14483.329,"text":"今年已經五萬多了不是四萬多當然他中位數沒有這麼高啦但是平均數已經是五萬多了接近你這個了所以我們的訴求其實就是苦民所苦啦你對承建人那時候是負責的年金整個改革總負責人總舵手他講的"},{"start":14484.93,"end":14511.32,"text":"軍公教 牢一起改結果牢到現在為止完全沒有改 牢就是一直補一直補 補到明年的預算加起來五千億教咧你要繼續砍 這不通啊整個不通啊這個賴清德總統都說台灣現在經濟成長 華佔度華佔GDP成長多少多少要全民共享為什麼退休人員你就"},{"start":14512.506,"end":14525.018,"text":"沒辦法去給他照顧一下好第二個問題就是那我們現在講的說以前是四年調整一次可以不可以改成兩年調整一次你們的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":14526.184,"end":14547.714,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前的規定是只要正負5%CPI但是如果要調整的話事實上可能還要也要兼顧到限值的跟限值的一個差異跟橫貧的部分以及目前的像陸委員講的目前平均上來講已經是5.8%85%是在5萬塊"},{"start":14552.798,"end":14557.702,"text":"這個問題是這個平均薪資已經五萬多了已經五萬多了 已經換句話說現在的這個教啊"},{"start":14561.758,"end":14583.409,"text":"叫的人員他已經是很辛苦了啦已經到樓地板了啦不要再砍了啦就這樣子一個很簡單的訴求嘛然後這個未來要隨著軍工就要調整他可以調整吧你們同意再調整吧我們現在是依照CPI增幅5%跟每4年調事實上從年改到現在已經調過兩次6%了幾年調6%"},{"start":14588.546,"end":14603.345,"text":"從年107年對嘛 就7年調6% 1年1%嘛所以我才講說 乾脆我們就兩年 然後3%就這個意思啦好 時間到了 時間很短了所以我就不多講了就是告訴各位 就告訴大家"},{"start":14604.306,"end":14623.788,"text":"我們政府對勞保是這樣對軍工特別是公教是另外一個嘴臉完全正式考量這可怕的地方在這裡我覺得你現在今天在這裡回答你也不敢回答你這個都是造本宣科反正這個樣子反正我們立法院來改嘛因為民眾黨跟我們合起來民眾黨的"},{"start":14625.049,"end":14644.602,"text":"他只是一個堅持我聽到的是說不是回到原來的我們是說stop here不要繼續看我覺得你們應該好好去認真思考這個問題好謝謝好謝謝賴委員的提醒也請這個情緒部還有教育部你們作為公務人員跟教育人員的"},{"start":14645.575,"end":14665.68,"text":"主管機關更應該要保障公教人員的權益然後還有退休人員的權益然後裡面有一些事實其實沒有講得很清楚我們也希望你們之後能夠再把相關的細節能夠講得更清楚好 那麼接下來你們先請坐接下來就是"},{"start":14666.48,"end":14695.328,"text":"再看其他委員有沒有發言張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在張其凱委員張其凱委員張其凱委員不在牛許廷委員牛許廷委員牛許廷委員不在徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員"},{"start":14696.178,"end":14718.872,"text":"許新英委員不在沈發慧委員沈發慧委員沈發慧委員不在徐宇珍委員徐宇珍委員徐宇珍委員不在吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員吳宗憲委員不在傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員傅坤祺委員不在葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在接下來我們有請羅自強委員"},{"start":14731.912,"end":14736.313,"text":"主席好有請全序部有請懷智長委員好次長好在問公教年金是否停侃的問題之前我想先問一個看起來不是全序部主管但事實上和跟年金停侃有絕對相關的問題我想請問全序部以限制來說勞保何時會破產基金何時會歸零"},{"start":14762.743,"end":14791.818,"text":"勞保部我沒有研究不知道你當然不知道 我告訴你我告訴你答案好不好我告訴你答案勞保不會破產基金也不會歸零你知道為什麼嗎市長你知道為什麼嗎你不知道 我告訴你因為政府已經公開保證會對勞保負起最終支付責任我們的前勞動部長還說撥補就是改革撥補是不是改革 請問市長"},{"start":14796.373,"end":14809.509,"text":"撥補列為改革這個當然可以有很多不同的面向來問你的面向 權序部的面向撥補是不是改革應該是這樣講撥補也是增加我們基金來源的一部分"},{"start":14811.074,"end":14827.076,"text":"來來來我跟你講勞保不斷虧損你知道為了穩定勞保財務政府從民國109年開始透過總預算跟特別條例來撥補7年來撥補勞保基金多少錢來穩定勞保基金的水位"},{"start":14828.052,"end":14856.369,"text":"你還是不知道我看新聞好像幾千億的樣子對啊 5170億而且撥補的金額越來越大109年200億逐年跳增113年1200億今年1200億115年也是1200億好 我就要回頭來問年金停侃的問題啊權敘部反對停侃年金嘛 對不對所得替代率嘛 對不對最主要理由是什麼一個啦 我直接講啦"},{"start":14857.267,"end":14886.474,"text":"不繼續砍下去不把軍工叫砍死基金會提前歸零是不是應該這樣講就是說如果我們停止那個那個那個往下所得價降我們基金大概會未來到118年大概我們會減少收入大概提前多少提前多久歸零你們講的2700多億兩年嘛對不對接近到四年129年左右兩年到四年嘛對不對所以來啊"},{"start":14887.659,"end":14907.168,"text":"我支持政府對勞保承諾最終支付責任我也支持政府對勞保撥補但我想問你三個為什麼為什麼勞保政府可以撥補公教年金停侃政府就不能撥補為什麼勞保可以撥補公教年金停侃政府不能撥補"},{"start":14908.345,"end":14937.527,"text":"我們也都有在爭取撥補啊非常好啊 你好好爭取嘛那你主張什麼停砍年金 不反對 為什麼反對你爭取好撥補就不用反對啦你說剛說的喔 你說在爭取撥補啊我也請我們今天偉大民進黨政府啊全區部都說要撥補啊 趕快撥補還在找藉口說停砍年金 不可以第二個為什麼勞保政府可以保證最終支付責任公教年金停砍政府就不能保證最終支付責任"},{"start":14938.677,"end":14964.936,"text":"可不可以保證最終支付責任目前法律上就是這樣規定非常好 既然這樣子的話你還跟我講破產歸零還在威脅大家發不出退休金但是你那個最後就要全部大家一起來你的邏輯你自己都不要整理一下邏輯根本錯亂嘛來 那為什麼我們政府保證勞保不會破產你剛才也講了啊不會破產嘛 對不對"},{"start":14966.24,"end":14993.138,"text":"我們的公教年金不會破產嗎不會破產啊你告訴我講可以撥補啊最終自負責任啊那怕什麼破產還是要修正一下沒有喔 並沒有喔我跟你講 次長今天是我質詢全序部啊我最滿意的一天你第一個告訴我說可以撥補我謝謝你 你在爭取撥補我請那無良的民進黨聽進次長這句話爭取撥補"},{"start":14996.485,"end":15021.468,"text":"那你也說 就是政府會付最終支付責任啊你撥補完 你就不用擔心破產問題啊有沒有歸零的問題啊跟勞保基金一樣啊我直接告訴你啦市長 你還有同理心啦可是我們的民進黨政府賴清德總統就是瞧不起軍人瞧不起公教 瞧不起警消就是要欺負軍人 欺負公教 欺負警消"},{"start":15023.397,"end":15040.927,"text":"國民黨跟羅志強跟我們翁小林主席我們一路的挺軍人挺公教挺警消但我很難過看著一個政府賴清德民進黨一路的踩軍人踩公教踩警消這我最難過的事情我都還沒講台電撥補"},{"start":15042.935,"end":15050.52,"text":"為了要讓綠油油賺大錢對不對錯誤的能源政策搞得今天台電虧損連連撥補3000億都不夠虧損還有將近5000億你怎麼不說台電會打"},{"start":15056.243,"end":15082.157,"text":"因為綠油有中藥嘛所以直接拿軍公教開刀就是現在民進黨政府的做法最後我要跟你講啦我們的軍公 我們的公教人員也沒有多麼了不起奢侈的要求他要求不過是停砍有要求回到2018年嗎 有嗎 有沒有我們的年金提案有要求回到2018年嗎 有沒有沒有嘛從一開始砍5% 接下來逐年1.5%請問現在已經砍多少了"},{"start":15083.62,"end":15088.885,"text":"從今年應該是到68.5累積起來砍多少了啊累積起來大概剩68嘛 對不對對 68.5我告訴你啊 次長"},{"start":15095.202,"end":15113.28,"text":"現在軍公教 我們的公教人員你把他血跟肉都砍光了他今天也不是沒有體諒到今天國家財政問題他只是卑微的請求你 骨跟筋不要斷掉它嘛這才是今天為什麼要提出停砍年金我還沒講後面 最後很快的結論"},{"start":15114.656,"end":15132.898,"text":"我們的軍工教是我們經濟發展國家安全跟社會穩定的最大基石現在你也知道老師找不到以前老師搶破頭的老師找不到公務人員報考人數可以從52萬直接掉到16萬少了七成"},{"start":15134.059,"end":15155.252,"text":"你沒有辦法吸引好的人才請問怎麼去支撐政府的運作所以拜託高抬貴手今天我也很開心今天市長告訴大家你會爭取撥補就好好爭取撥補不要再阻攔停侃年金的一個我們的這個改革了拜託留給我們的軍公教留給我們公教人員一條生路謝謝好 謝謝盧委員那麼接下來請吳佩奕委員發言"},{"start":15171.158,"end":15178.263,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我要邀請教育部 權序部跟人事總署請兩位次長還有副人事長委員好"},{"start":15183.71,"end":15200.841,"text":"各位好我想我們今天在現場都是非常關心我們公教的人員的福利那我特別關心的是其實市長知道我們在教文會質詢的時候也就是我們最近新增加的給公教人員的身心調試價"},{"start":15202.982,"end":15230.38,"text":"10月10號開始上路那很多的公教人員都很期待就是說我們在過往的試駕以外我們新增了升星條試駕的價別但是呢很多的團體教師團體在反映主要幾項問題第一個是目前私校是沒有納入待客補助第二點是這個待客人力也很難找就是如果找不到待客人力的話可能教師也不敢來請這個價"},{"start":15231.661,"end":15240.5,"text":"第三點是因為你們現行的大家原來期待的是新增價別但沒想到上路之後你們是把它併入市價來計算"},{"start":15242.338,"end":15269.747,"text":"所以我就回去找了當時我們在研議要來新增身心調試假這個價別的時候教育部也曾經邀集了我們縣市地方政府的教育局來討論嘛對不對當時有調查我們縣市地方教育局大家的意見就是有關於我們是七天試假另外加三天的身心調試假還是說三天的身心調試假併入既有的七天試假來計算"},{"start":15272.008,"end":15288.006,"text":"當時在我們22個縣市當中有9個縣市地方政府的教育局都是同意升薪調試假的3天是另外新增的也就是7天試假加3天升薪調試假總共是10天"},{"start":15290.28,"end":15302.987,"text":"當時是有七個縣市的地方交局都同意喔也認為是可行的但是我們最後上路的時候卻是三天升薪條市價併入七天市價計算來請問一下市長這個是什麼原因啊"},{"start":15304.242,"end":15329.389,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子因為我們在跟相關部會跟各式教育局談的時候大概有兩個議題一個就是要不要獨立給假的問題那這個部分因為考量到說各個不同職系因為有教師 有工人 有軍人甚至還有一些勞工所以後來才決定說我們還是以"},{"start":15330.869,"end":15352.235,"text":"納入試駕7天裡面去計算但是我們會另外提供課貸的一個補助全部由政府來支援不用讓老師來負擔那這部分相較於目前的課貸的規定是一個進步的或是有前進是 因為當初是有提到說希望教師跟公務人員是一致的"},{"start":15353.015,"end":15373.184,"text":"所以說是之前是人事總處跟全序部認為公務人員應該要三天的申請調適價要併入七天市價計算嗎能不能請全序部跟人總來給我一個回覆是的我們就是參照家庭照顧價的處理方式併入市價來做處理好"},{"start":15377.672,"end":15394.539,"text":"剛剛其實主持人已經提過了 因為各種職域這個聲音調整是大家都需要的 所以我們從軍公教開始做示範所以也不希望距離拉得太大 各職域距離拉得太大所以全序部跟人總 我們是主管公務人員嘛"},{"start":15395.563,"end":15413.994,"text":"那教育部這邊是主管教師因為現在基層很多教師還有地方政府都在反映說這三天的身心調適假在我們第一線教學現場對老師來說確實是有所需要的而大家當初期待的三天身心調適假就是新增的價別"},{"start":15414.514,"end":15429.954,"text":"你在食物上你把它併入既有的七天釋迦你看像今天台中市就傳出來啦老師說十月十號上路要來請神經條釋迦結果學校跟他說什麼你先把七天的釋迦用完再來請你看食物上就很容易會遇到這樣的問題"},{"start":15432.617,"end":15454.156,"text":"這個如果說啦因為教育部現在應該要持續的跟我們地方的教育局還有基層的教師團體持續的來討論上路之後有沒有需要調整是不是可以來研議這三天申請調試價另外計算如果說教育人員教育部這裡有這樣子的討論這個我們程序部跟人總會反對嗎"},{"start":15457.955,"end":15486.663,"text":"就像剛剛跟委員報告因為我們要考慮到其他職域的問題因為譬如說像目前勞工他是沒有這樣的假那如果我們再外加這三天進去的話那這可能要在省政考量這個齁 我們公教的人員的這些福利在社會上都是叫做帶頭示範作用像我們嘉興 過去嘉興也是我們公教先行是為了要帶動民間公司行號讓勞工的權益也可以往前進"},{"start":15487.583,"end":15508.642,"text":"不是去製造衝突這才叫做改革啊如果說我們都不敢做不敢往前跨一步那社會怎麼會跟我們一起前進呢既然我們要新增身心調適價這個價別就是因為在當代現代社會確實有所需要包括我們衛福部也都在推動青少年的身心健康把他去汙名化"},{"start":15510.003,"end":15536.113,"text":"這個在我們公教人員的福利上面去先行示範這是一個很重要的社會帶領的作用不是在製造衝突所以呢我希望教育部持續的跟教師團體來溝通討論那倘若教育主管機關嘛如果說你們就拍板定案我們教師身心條試駕三天就另外計算不病入青天試駕我希望人總跟學術部不要來反對"},{"start":15537.833,"end":15566.772,"text":"甚至也應該要來跟上這個才是有辦法去增加我們第一現場讓老師在這個替我們教學的時候可以讓他有比較好的環境那最後一點我要關心的是因為時間有限但是因為我們有這個人事總署深夜為勞津貼其實就是大夜班凌晨半夜12點到凌晨6點有來值班大部分是警消人員我們現在是嚴禮要把它擴大來發放有沒有在討論當中了"},{"start":15569.474,"end":15592.724,"text":"就是說過去只有外勤的我們現在要把駐地的內勤的深夜值班景瀟的津貼也把它加入 有沒有再研擬了跟委員報告我們因為有值班的當然有各種類型的機關那我們從景瀟海巡開始已經核定了那其他的部分我們也有這個就是跟各機關徵詢的意見在做整體的研議"},{"start":15592.944,"end":15620.674,"text":"好 我希望 這討論許久了 趕快來把它增加因為我們內勤的 直大夜班的這些警消海巡的人 都同樣的辛苦這個我再跟你們追蹤進度 好不好好 謝謝主席好 那麼登記委員登記發言委員都已經巡達完畢那現在有議員之委員再度請求巡達在場有沒有異議好 沒有異議的話 那接著請議員之委員進行巡達 那時間五分鐘為限"},{"start":15628.439,"end":15630.4,"text":"麻煩請那個權序部教育部有請兩位次長請問一下兩位次長現在我們現在針對那個教職人員 退休教職人員希望能夠停扣那政府現在立場認為會製造世代對立是不是會嗎"},{"start":15653.206,"end":15678.363,"text":"跟委報告應該不是世代對立啦而是說會影響到現職的教師嘛我聽到很多講法都是這樣啊現行教師 是吧現行教師那當然這個差距的問題以及那個退休的有沒有個事主的保障這些應該都要一起做我不太知道說這有什麼相關耶請問一下那個你們會不會勞動部也沒有講說如果不去停購已經退休的勞工的話會影響到現職現在勞工啊這兩個有什麼相關"},{"start":15684.031,"end":15689.823,"text":"市長為什麼只有在教師公教這一塊會有這個問題勞工沒有這個問題"},{"start":15691.721,"end":15714.666,"text":"因為我們從年改以後大概所減少下來的錢是回到我們基金這個部分來勞保不是一樣嗎勞保是一樣啊兩位次長我覺得重點是勞工那塊我也都支持但是很顯然就是我們政府不重視退休公教人員嘛這很明顯嘛勞保部分是用撥補的嘛"},{"start":15716.331,"end":15733.63,"text":"所以退休公教也一樣可以用撥補啊更何況現在假設按照國民黨的版本我們停扣的話現職教師比如說他四年後退休他一樣適用停扣的版本不是嗎市長請問一下是不是所以為什麼會影響到現職教師"},{"start":15734.864,"end":15751.258,"text":"我跟兩位講真正影響到現實教師是什麼好不好現在很多資深的老師都跟一些可能對於教師有憧憬的那些青年才俊講說你有別的選擇你就不要投入這個不要來當老師因為我們的政府說話不算話"},{"start":15753.196,"end":15780.771,"text":"當時他們尋求一個比較穩健的工作然後也有教書的熱忱然後結果政府說退休金說砍就砍因為不砍的話可能會影響到現職老師的福利這是政府給這一些退休老師的感覺而他們也告訴其他的現職老師甚至於準備要進入老師這個行業的一些年輕人說不要來這才是最嚴重的問題 你知道嗎次長你有聽到類似的說法嗎"},{"start":15782.475,"end":15808.209,"text":"有沒有在教育現場我想目前各方面都有各方面的聲音都有包含說年改的原因大育的問題行政量負荷太高所以兩件事情第一個我覺得停扣這個部分絕對是合理的他可以挽救政府已經所剩無幾的信任感"},{"start":15809.751,"end":15826.804,"text":"這個部分我覺得政府不用再擋了啦除了是對資深老師一個尊重之外讓他們有更好的生活保障之外也是讓大眾喚醒大眾對政府的信心之一啦第二個有關於就是退休退輔金隨著物價調整這一塊"},{"start":15828.385,"end":15853.878,"text":"因為現在等於是授權給行政院或相關機構來決定當那個物價漲得很快的時候是授權你們去決定要漲不漲嘛所以這就會產生一個空間就變成說好像不漲也沒關係就像去 本來在選舉的時候民進黨的候選人 賴清德總統告訴大家說他已經準備一筆錢要用在這個方面後來也是拖非常久不是嗎這事情你知道嗎 市長"},{"start":15855.657,"end":15878.096,"text":"目前其實只要CPI的正負5%或是如果沒有的話至少4年我們都會定期調整一次那年改到目前對啊 那要到4年問題是現在物價已經我們調了兩次了 6%因為現在物價波動很大那除了現在就是等於是看這是人質嘛就是要看人嘛我們希望把它制度化如果把它制度化以後即便是"},{"start":15879.113,"end":15900.914,"text":"政府不想調但是因為法律規定在那邊他就必須要調嘛所以我相信台灣是法治國家啦任何事情制度化一定是比較好的也不會讓你們這些工人員為難啦比如說如果換一個政府他就是對公教非常的不友善的話至少我們還有一個制度在跟著走啊所以我不知道教育部次長您也是教育 算教育的嘛你支持對老師好一點嗎"},{"start":15902.671,"end":15926.803,"text":"我們當然希望讓老師能夠在校園裡面能夠安心然後從事他自己那這是退休的部分退休也影響到現職我剛剛已經有跟你提醒過第二個我們政府你是高教出身嘛我們政府對高教特別好在那個任性預算的時候變200億個高教變0元給國教但是現在缺老師是在國教這塊缺的很多我聽說連正職老師"},{"start":15927.944,"end":15946.583,"text":"正職 考上正職喔 都不去報到有很多的原因啦 因為我們今天時間關係啦就是希望 次長你對現職老師也要好一點啦該給人家加的啦 導師費 行政費還有那個操資終點費 該給就給 不要摳這個東西啦是謝謝好 謝謝委員指導 我們會來努力好 謝謝葉委員"},{"start":15951.491,"end":15972.59,"text":"那麼今天還有陳秀寶委員、沈發慧委員、謝龍介委員、徐巧欣委員、牛許廷委員、吳宗憲委員、張志倫委員、傅坤祺委員等等都有提出書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報並且請相關機關以書面回覆"},{"start":15973.424,"end":16002.089,"text":"好 那委員質詢的時候要求各機關要提供的相關資料或者是以書面答覆的那麼也請相關機關要儘速送交給個別委員以及本聯席會議好的 那麼今天所列的議程討論事項報告詢答都已經完畢那麼我們就決議就另定期繼續審查那本次會議進行到此結束那麼現在散會 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":558.666,"end":577.426,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":699.967,"end":701.118,"text":"我看看你等一下"},{"start":843.568,"end":844.014,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":1762.213,"end":1775.013,"text":"好 我們現在請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人 已組法定人數我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1775.871,"end":1793.167,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議事錄時間114年11月16日星期四9時3分至11時43分地點紅樓101會議室初期委員林代化等14人列席委員吳秉瑞等10人列席人員公民交易委員會代理主任委員陳記銘等"},{"start":1794.648,"end":1818.991,"text":"主席陳昭景委員停飛 報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄 決定 確定二 邀請公民教育委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況並備質詢公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明報告後委員林黛嬅等15人提出質詢均經公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明等及其答覆決定一 登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均於發言完畢 詢答結束"},{"start":1820.893,"end":1825.659,"text":"二 會計達戶部分 請相關單位於一週內與書面達戶並副資本會上會宣讀完畢好 那我們現在先來進行報告事項 請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告約後概況 並被質詢 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1840.424,"end":1865.209,"text":"好那我們現在介紹在場的委員及列席機關首長首先國發會主委葉主委好接下來我們的副主委高副主委接下來我們彭副主委謝謝"},{"start":1868.843,"end":1896.106,"text":"接下來詹副主委好 主任秘書張祖密 謝謝接下來我們檔案管理局林局長塞車路上好 待會兒到來 我們行政院國家發展基金管委會的代理植密葉植密 謝謝"},{"start":1901.345,"end":1908.348,"text":"好 現在我們依照今天排定的議程請國防會主委做業務報告我們現在請國防會主委 業績檢主委來做報告"},{"start":1925.232,"end":1951.299,"text":"主席以及在場的各位媒體朋友還有先進大家好那今天很高興能有這個機會來這邊跟大家報告一下就是說國發會未來在哪一個方面以及政策我們的推動的一個方向那我的報告大致上會分成三個部分第一個就是說我會跟大家講一下說當前的一個經濟情勢那第二個就是國發會的施政方向與重點那最後就是結語"},{"start":1954.281,"end":1973.268,"text":"那目前的那一個整個全球的經濟狀況呈現的是一個溫和的成長所以很多機構都預測就是說最近這幾年從2021年到2025年這幾年的話整個經濟全球的經濟的成長會落在2.3%到3.2%區間"},{"start":1977.049,"end":1992.53,"text":"这个区域间其实看起来是有点顿化也就是说整个全球经济动能有一点慢慢在迟缓的成长当中就整个另外一个全球CPI的年增率来看的话我们从图表上面可以很清楚的看到"},{"start":1993.943,"end":2010.123,"text":"可以很清楚的看到就是說全球的CPI從2022年的一個高點之後的話迅速的往下修正一直到今年今年預估大概大部分的機構都會預估今年的全球的CPI的年增率大致上會在2.9%到4.2%"},{"start":2012.349,"end":2026.238,"text":"那這個數字告訴我們就是說全球的通膨已經慢慢的有稍微已經傾向一個緩解的一個情況那回過頭來看我們整個台灣的那個經濟成長率的一個預估那台灣的經濟成長率預估依照主計總數的"},{"start":2029.58,"end":2055.8,"text":"说法就是说今年台湾的经济成长大概4.45%但最近国内几个机构都陆续发布整个台湾的经济成长率的预估尤其是像最近像中金院在上个礼拜有发布就是说台湾的经济成长率预估会到5.45%国际上面的机构对于台湾经济成长率预估最高也有到5.1%这个是由亚洲开发银行所预估出来的"},{"start":2056.46,"end":2071.718,"text":"那就整個台灣的經濟成長率的整個成長的模式來看的話會比較傾向就是說就是動能會持續但我們會穩步的向前那從各季來看的話我們上半年的那個經濟成長狀況相對的比較熱絡那下半年比較溫和"},{"start":2077.204,"end":2085.451,"text":"上半年會比較熱絡的原因是因為我們有所謂的AI的強勁需求還有所謂的關稅的一些提前出貨的一個現象所以使得出口的大幅度的增加帶動了國內的民間投資的一些成長所以使得我們第一季的經濟成長表現大致上是到達了6.75%"},{"start":2100.942,"end":2106.194,"text":"那我們下半年的話會是在2.3那下半年會比上半年低的原因是最主要是整個"},{"start":2110.421,"end":2135.273,"text":"供貨潮就是說整個整個那個因為AI因為那個關稅所造成的一些那個清訂單的一個現象在下半年稍微的遲緩但是因為整個AI的需求一直強勁至少到依照台積電的說法至少會維持到明年所以在整個橫頻的過程當中的話我們台灣下半年的那一個經濟成長率還是會維持在所謂的2.3"},{"start":2136.534,"end":2155.273,"text":"那这样的一个今年的整个经济成长率预估会是在4.45这样的一个数字之下的话相较于其他邻近国家来看的话我们台湾的那个经济成长率相对还是算是一个比较平稳的一个状态那会是亚洲四角龙当中最好的一个国家"},{"start":2155.874,"end":2174.986,"text":"那比較需要注意的就是說中國的那一個經濟持續的放寒從去年它的經濟成長維持在5之後的話依照很多機構的預測尤其是S&P Global的預測的話去年大概會是中國未來幾年唯一一個可能會達到5%的一個經濟成長未來大概經濟成長會陸續的一個一個趨緩的一個狀態所以這個是我們必須要去注意的"},{"start":2181.75,"end":2196.287,"text":"那接下来就是说我们去看一下我们整个台湾经济成长的动能分成三个部分第一个部分当然就是所谓的出口以及民间投资还有消费那就好像我刚刚跟大家介绍出口这部分来讲的话就是因为集单以及AI的强劲需求使得我们的出口"},{"start":2196.887,"end":2214.06,"text":"跟去年来比的话增加大概24%那也因为出口的一个大幅的增加那带动了我们国内的民间的投资那民间的投资的表现也相当的不错那成长了跟去年比的话成长大概9.89那民间消费相对的比较弱一点点"},{"start":2214.46,"end":2233.107,"text":"那弱一點點最主要原因是因為經濟前景不確定那減緩了國內的耐久財的消費的一些動能但由於上市櫃公司的鼓勵發放的增加那也會有一些財富效果使得民間的消費多多少少都有一些提升的作用那使得我們的民間消費大致上維持在一個平穩的一個狀態大概是0.85左右"},{"start":2235.799,"end":2252.985,"text":"那接下來我們來看我們台灣的那個CPI的年增率那我們CPI的年增率預估主計總數預估是1.76那這1.76跟前幾年來比的話相對是一個比較合環那各位可以從這個簡報看到就是說2022年的2.95一直持續的往下走到今年是1.76"},{"start":2253.965,"end":2280.391,"text":"那雖然我們的那一個CPI的預估相對是1.6是一個相當和緩的一個狀態但是我們也必須注意到就是說一些相關的一些民生物資的一些漲幅還有因為極端氣候造成整個糧食的供給相對的一個短缺以及地緣政治比如說像關稅的一些政策使得整個比如說像稀土或晶片整個的一些貿易的動能會受到一些衝擊那間接的也會影響到"},{"start":2283.372,"end":2291.741,"text":"大宗原物料的供給那會影響到我們國內的CPI的一個年增率那這樣的一個年增率在整個國際上面來看的話也是一個相對的一個和緩的一個狀況"},{"start":2294.366,"end":2309.619,"text":"那接下來就是說想跟各位報告就是說我們台灣的人均的GDP這個部分來講的話足地總數預估我們今年應該是可以達到38000美元那明年應該是有機會站上所謂的4萬美元的一個高峰那這樣的一個預估的話就國際預測機構來看的話他們也認為說台灣在今年應該會有38238塊"},{"start":2319.688,"end":2334.854,"text":"那會比韓國跟日本還要高那整個的那個人均GDP的表現來看的話台灣應該是屬於中段班的當然不能跟新加坡跟香港來比新加坡跟香港跟台灣韓國日本來比的話相對他的"},{"start":2335.473,"end":2352.752,"text":"国家规模相对是比较小香港当然是一个地区这样子好那接下来我大致上跟大家分享一下我们国发会未来的那个施政方向那施政方向大概有四个重点一个是创新思维第二个是投资人才第三个是一个均衡台湾第四个是一个国家记忆的这个部分"},{"start":2353.803,"end":2371.692,"text":"那就創新思維這部分我想首先跟大家介紹就是說國發會未來會同仇推展所謂的五大信賴產業那這五大信賴產業推展這五大信賴產業最主要的理由就是說要強化我們國家的安全韌性然後使台灣成為全球民族科技陣營不可或缺的一個信賴夥伴"},{"start":2372.113,"end":2399.12,"text":"那這大體上有所謂的半導體AI 安控 軍工以及次世代那因為時間的關係我在這邊就不一一的介紹就是說裡面每一個component我們要去推廣的一些東西那接下來我想跟大家介紹就是說我們為了要驅動五大信賴產業所以我們會協調推動AI新時代建設然後奠定半導體之後下一個未來的一個產業那提出AI的新時代建設那各位可以從這一個"},{"start":2401.307,"end":2420.154,"text":"圖裡面可以看到就是說AI新時代建設的每一個項跟我前面所提到那個五大信賴產業都都很緊密的扣合比如說像最上面的AI軟體產業登峰這一塊的話這是速發部主政的那這個就是對應到我們五大信賴產業的AI產業"},{"start":2421.374,"end":2447.666,"text":"那譬如說像百工百業智慧應用這部分是經濟部主政的那它所對應到的就會是一個軍工跟AI那像我們像那個智慧政府與資料治理這部分的話是速發部速發部主政那它對應到的五大信賴產業就是AI跟所謂的暗控所以這十大產業這十大建設裡面的話國科會有四項那速發部有兩項那經濟部兩項我們國發會有兩項"},{"start":2450.387,"end":2467.335,"text":"那這十項裡面大致上可以分成三大部分三大部分第一個就是智慧應用那這智慧應用是希望能夠帶動AI的全面發展那關鍵技術這部分的話是希望建立AI全國互三那數位基盤部分的話是希望推進AI成為全球評比的前五名這樣子"},{"start":2468.075,"end":2485.97,"text":"那預期在2024年會創造15兆的一個產值以及50萬個高薪的就業機會還有3萬個國際級的實驗室那我們有了這樣的一個建設的話接下來我們當然需要有一些資金的一個動能在推動所以我們在這裡我們會提升產業的創新然後也會升級資金的動能"},{"start":2491.374,"end":2513.866,"text":"这个部分大概有三个方向第一个就是主题式的百亿基金还有创业创新的基金还有直接投资这个部分那在主题式的百亿基金这个部分的话目前有七支百亿的基金那目前在规划当中有大健康以及运动产业"},{"start":2514.426,"end":2515.888,"text":"那在創業創新這個部分來講的話我們今年會推廣一個叫做創業大聯盟的競賽這叫做創業綻放的一個競賽那這個競賽的話"},{"start":2528.433,"end":2534.816,"text":"希望能夠從所有申請隊伍當中選出100組那這100組裡面的前3名我們會給予總統獎那後接下來的6名會給予院長獎那接下來81名會給予綻放獎那我們辦這一個競賽最主要的目的是"},{"start":2547.922,"end":2575.86,"text":"希望把台灣的這種創新創業的這樣的一個動能這樣的一個風氣能夠在整個台灣遍地開花那所以這個部分這個部分也希望就是說在座各位的先進以及委員幫忙幫我們國發會多多的Promote這一塊好那接下來就是說我們有資金那我們接下來當然所有的建設都必須要有一個很重要的一個部分就是所謂的投資的人才那投資的人才這個部分來講的話"},{"start":2577.602,"end":2598.272,"text":"好 那投資人才這部分來講的話我們就分兩部分一個是國內跟國外那國內的話就會比較著重在賠財跟預財那國外的話就會著重在攬財跟流財這個部分那因為時間的關係我就不一一的再仔細介紹那我們從國外攬財跟流財很多國外人才來我們台灣之後我們當然希望能夠創造一個"},{"start":2599.432,"end":2623.885,"text":"友善的一個雙語環境那這友善的雙語環境裡面各位可以看到就是說我們有分兩部分一個部分是營造外國人的宜居環境另外一個是提升本國人的雙語能力那宜居環境的這個部分的話各位可以看到就是說我們會嘗試的利用AI來進進所謂的公共服務還有提供便利的生活還有強化專業的人才的一個落地那在提升本國"},{"start":2624.625,"end":2651.659,"text":"本國人的雙語能力這部分也希望說能夠利用AI來提升職場英文的一些素養那接下來就是所謂的均衡台灣這個部分均衡台灣這個部分的話我們希望就是說能夠促進台灣均衡發展然後創造產業優解的環境然後全民共享經濟的一個成果那這個部分很重要就是說在願景方面我們希望就是說這個均衡台灣能夠增加我們的薪資創造就業以及繁榮地方"},{"start":2652.719,"end":2671.991,"text":"那這個部分來講你可以看到六個部分六大區域產業生活圈裡面其實裡頭也有不少是有關於我們五大信賴產業那各位可以參考一下這個紅色的那個部分就是我們標註出來就是說這個產業在哪一個生活圈裡面會是一個蠻重要的一個發展的一個項目"},{"start":2673.7,"end":2696.925,"text":"那除了六大區域之外的話我們有其他150多項的一個重要建設那綠色這個部分標示出來就是說目前已經完工的那紅色這部分標示的就是所謂的交通這個部分那其他的一些黑色的話就是跟園區醫療文化所以我們也會去完善這一些重大建設讓整個六大區域的生活更完善更美好"},{"start":2697.83,"end":2725.515,"text":"那有了這一些建設之後的話其實最重要是什麼最重要是把資金引到這一些公共建設裡面所以在落實兆元投資國家發展這個部分來講的話我們持續的在精進所謂的促參這樣一個機制的一個推進那另外一個很重要的一個重點就是說我們鼓勵保險業的投資投資到公共建設裡面"},{"start":2726.255,"end":2739.799,"text":"那裡面有一個很重要最近金管會有修法然後擴大那個民間投入民間之間進入到公共建設那裡面有一個基礎建設多增加的一個基礎建設這一項目那基礎建設這個項目的話國發會是唯一的一個接受申請的一個窗口那我們拿到申請案之後我們把這個申請案"},{"start":2748.281,"end":2774.262,"text":"转交给所谓的中央目的事业主管机关由他们去认定什么叫做基础建设但要注意就是说我们只做认定基础建设不包括认定整个技术里面的内容所以被认定为是一个基础建设的话不代表他的那个计划内容一定会过也不代表就是国家会替他做任何的一些倍数这样子好那这是属于兆元投资国家的方案那另外当然就是所谓的深化地"},{"start":2774.727,"end":2793.158,"text":"深化地方创生创造永续共好那这个部分我们希望就是说为地方创生创造更多的一个平台那也希望就是说这个地方创生能够增加它跟企业的链接强化跟国际上面的一个链接那希望部件共好的合作机制那从在地到国际"},{"start":2794.042,"end":2801.645,"text":"那最後一個部分就是說想要跟大家提的就是一個國家記憶的這個部分那我們國發會會啟用手作的國家檔案那這個檔案的話我們在2025年9月2號開始試營運那試營運的期間的話大概有10萬人次來參訪那受到非常正面的一個迴響"},{"start":2814.83,"end":2834.37,"text":"那我們這個檔案館會在2025年11月22號啟用那這個檔案館的一個啟用非常重要一點就是說這個檔案館會把我們國家的一些記憶都把它收集起來就好像我們國家的指紋那我們希望就是說這樣的一個國家指紋能夠慢慢的烙印在全民的腦袋裡面或是甚至在全民的一個心裡面"},{"start":2834.91,"end":2855.664,"text":"那這個國家檔案的一個發展有四個定論它希望成為一個國家記憶的完整素材中心還有權威的應用中心還有專業技術研發中心以及全國家記憶學習的中心那這一個檔案館有非常特別的地方就是它充分的應用AI"},{"start":2856.344,"end":2878.148,"text":"來展現國家的一個記憶的樣貌那所以他會充分的利用科技賦能來達成所謂檔案管理那活絡檔案智慧的一些禁用那這個檔案館其實是一個智慧永續的新里程那民間參與創共榮的一個知識地標好 那我現在的報告就到這裡結束 謝謝好 我們謝謝主委的報告"},{"start":2889.994,"end":2904.424,"text":"好 謝謝 那麼現在請問各位同仁剛剛所念的會議意思錄有錯誤沒有錯誤 我們意思錄確認接下來我們進行詢答委員執行前"},{"start":2905.512,"end":2921.644,"text":"原例以下的宣告每位委員發言6分鐘必要時加長1分鐘非本位委員5分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記我們首先請登記第一位的陳廷飛委員請做發言"},{"start":2934.412,"end":2935.015,"text":"為什麼這樣子主要"},{"start":2968.337,"end":2981.839,"text":"謝謝召委我們請主委主委我想你剛上任我必須要跟你討論"},{"start":2982.93,"end":2999.04,"text":"三個我一直在追蹤的而且是追蹤很久我們一直在講天上不會掉下來有禮物一定是要循序漸進一步一步然後怎麼看到成果怎麼看到我們的發展所以"},{"start":2999.929,"end":3014.612,"text":"我跟主委交換一下國發會其實在當時候我們有邀相關單位到地方去做會刊也就是在我們糖鐵的部分"},{"start":3015.765,"end":3038.273,"text":"如何連接後碧蘭花園區再到你們新營糖廠你們的腹地再加上我們國家圖書館南部分館再加上我們岸內影視基地還有我們鹽水老街所以這個串聯可以說依照我們去現場看的時候"},{"start":3039.233,"end":3053.47,"text":"這一個區段是最容易能夠恢復我們唐鐵五魂車過去的記憶它所必須解決的問題最小而且能夠突破的"},{"start":3054.171,"end":3068.904,"text":"是有空间的所以我觉得说当我们在走独的时候我们在做所谓糖铁走独的文化的时候其实我们更应该有这样的一个交通网络的串联"},{"start":3070.034,"end":3086.873,"text":"我們西北地方欠缺的是交通網絡所以我們明明後碧蘭花園區現在已經升格為花卉產業園區所以我們再加上我們的國家圖書館南部分館"},{"start":3087.714,"end":3116.326,"text":"再加上岸內影視基地這是我們文化部花了重本重資然後整合所有的影視產業然後我們的機能讓他可以提升再加上我們賦予文化歷史背景的我們的鹽水老街所以如果這樣的串聯我們可以把整個我們的狼帶做一個很好的發揮"},{"start":3118.041,"end":3125.138,"text":"所以當時候下去的時候你們有提了一個叫我們希望有一個狼帶地方創生計畫"},{"start":3127.83,"end":3153.889,"text":"唐鐵五分車狼帶地方創生計畫我想問的我們從這個鹽水岸內隱私基地然後再加上鹽水車站 鹽水老街新宜區的西太子宮站東太子宮站 縣沿台 新營唐場天河湖 後壁我們的蘭花園區等等我想問的我們現在進度如何"},{"start":3155.084,"end":3178.103,"text":"跟委員報告就是說就有如我剛剛的那一個簡報提到就是說我們整個國家的發展過程當中我們會依照六大區域產業生活圈去發展但在發展的這些區域的過程當中也會有一些配套措施像剛剛委員講的那個就是裡面的配套措施那進度呢我想了解的是進度會跟著那個地方創生上來"},{"start":3178.703,"end":3207.417,"text":"那基本上就是說本會已經在6月13號邀集台南市政府以及台塘公司等單位有開會演商那結論是請台南市政府當作一個提案的單位然後研提地方創生計畫那後續我們也會會循著這個地方創生的計畫那6月18到現在呢6月18到現在動到什麼程度我知道台塘他們已經有開第四次的專案會議他們有在動"},{"start":3208.786,"end":3233.629,"text":"那請問提案單位有沒有動?提案單位裡面還在做內部審核在做內部審核?對,我們現在在等個提案他有說他什麼時候要提嗎?我們現在好像沒有追一下好嗎?好,可以啊你正式發文給他嘛好,好,是是是好,表示我們中央全力支援唐鐵五分車廊帶的地方創生嘛這一條真的很美我這樣"},{"start":3235.066,"end":3261.483,"text":"五回一間都大新娘我們每一次經過新營就是看著五分那車那這五分那車是一個歷史是一個文化所以拜託主委 正式發文給市政府請他們看要協調到什麼程度總是先提案吧我們狼帶地方創生已經都幫他想好了就請他提案 要不然還要提案"},{"start":3262.303,"end":3280.232,"text":"他可能內部有一些在協調但我們會發函給那個台南市政府拜託總是表達了我們國發會我們希望在我們的企業有這條長鐵五分車攔帶地方創生就像你講的配套"},{"start":3281.212,"end":3309.469,"text":"好配套所以这个再拜托我也会请我们同仁假如台南市政府有一些需要我们帮忙的话我们会提供协助再拜托我知道台党已经有开了第四次的专案会议国发会在6月18号也开了会议那现在已经全责划分就是由地方政府台南市政府来做提案单位针对塘铁五分车廊带地方创生那么我们就要进度6月18号到现在多久了"},{"start":3309.969,"end":3337.944,"text":"好幾個月囉再拜託那再來就是我們對於南科四期我想主委我跟你交換過意見因為國發會是know-how所以最後還是要有你們核定那我要拜託這是我們來自地方的聲音我們希望他們的建言大規人暨沙倫科學城促進會這是他們的聲音他希望說產業政策由政府主導"},{"start":3338.844,"end":3361.091,"text":"社區守護生活價值這很重要然後我們生態要共生保育跟富裕方案要避免陷入開發的堆砾再來高鐵特定區的招商策略要讓產業跟住商還有住宅我們有形成良性的循環"},{"start":3362.492,"end":3377.394,"text":"然後我們的共同願景就是要打造沙崙科學城跟高鐵新都心所以我們希望在我們的南科四期的部分要一起跟二期一起核定"},{"start":3378.919,"end":3400.871,"text":"一起核定雖然二期還沒有可是你一起核定那個計畫核定之後我們還要配合地方政府的區域規劃都市變更這個基本上要一步一步但是如果我們沒有將南科四期其中的一期跟二期一次核定"},{"start":3402.315,"end":3424.166,"text":"我們很難做推動所以主委這個部分要記清楚因為這是地方的聲音而且重點是產業政策政府主導我們社區要做成共融的狀態也就是如何附加的新都心可以展開這是地方的期待好不好好"},{"start":3425.146,"end":3447.344,"text":"我們會跟國科會協商一下看怎麼樣讓這個進度進行了快一點拜託你因為國發會是know-how基本上所有的資料還是要彙整到你這裡所以我覺得說那個政策的主導性很重要拜託我們的主委再來就是我們這個花卉創新產業園區這個部分"},{"start":3451.797,"end":3472.835,"text":"這個主委我們從當時候後壁蘭花園區的掛牌農業部正式進駐一路到現在我們114年9月1號我們的花卉產業園區再一次正式掛牌我們變成市級單位過去我們是曖昧不明"},{"start":3473.536,"end":3495.842,"text":"我們委在我們農業部某一個市級單位之下我們該去做這個本務生現在好不容易在114年因為我們努力了很久這三年多來我們一直期待我們的組織變更我們要提升我們的位階我們自己要有預算好 終於我們有自己的預算了這一次有編了"},{"start":3496.522,"end":3520.488,"text":"好但是我們現在的是公建計畫公建計畫要由我們國發會來做審查而且案子都已經送到我們國發會了70.52億雖然他是114年到121年可是我們要核定沒有核定我們不能編經費啊對不對那什麼時候要核定現在已經到國發會了"},{"start":3521.448,"end":3532.831,"text":"我們會已經在10月14號已經函附行政院那行政院基本上也已經同意農業部成立農業部花卉創新園區的研究發展中心所以OK了"},{"start":3533.956,"end":3560.661,"text":"OK了1月14号就OK了这个公建计划基本上70.52亿114年到121年OK没有问题了我们已经送到院了送到院了就等院核定你们没有写意见吧都没有吗我没有你们是有写意见啊但是有一些意见还是要提醒是可是这些意见会不会影响到我们的期程呢"},{"start":3561.762,"end":3576.412,"text":"對但還是一樣就是行政院合大規模大範圍大方向是沒有問題的只是有些小提醒所以只要行政院合了就沒問題了不用再來來去去了應該是不用了"},{"start":3577.433,"end":3603.872,"text":"不用了吧 不用了吧就是行政院核定了嘛你們的意見只是一個小建議而已不會影響整個公建計畫所以我們期待行政院趕快因為10月14號我們已經送出我們國發會了然後呢 行政院等待它核定我們就可以趕快去編列預算好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 非常感謝陳定非委員的詢談 謝謝"},{"start":3609.817,"end":3625.073,"text":"那個主委要敬禮一下 你要回座的時候再敬禮一下 謝謝接下來我們請林大化委員請巡檔我們再請主委"},{"start":3630.569,"end":3657.976,"text":"好 主委本席針對你的簡報第10頁AI十大建設今天你要講清楚說明白你怎麼落地我從諾貝爾經濟學獎看創新驅動的發展也要求國發會明確佈局AI十大建設在高雄好 在這邊我們諾貝爾獎的啟示經濟成長要靠的是研發創新而不只是靠的是政府的支出"},{"start":3658.536,"end":3666.765,"text":"那今天已經宣布了AI十大建設希望透過研發矽光子與算力建設帶動台灣在2040年前創造15兆的產值這是您第10頁的簡報50萬個新就業機會隔回在9月的時候也宣布將無人載具納入了"},{"start":3679.258,"end":3691.808,"text":"好那這樣的一個諾貝爾獎啟示也經濟成長要靠研發創新我請國發會現在開始要評估兩件事情第一個矽光石的技術開發應該鼓勵業者在高雄"},{"start":3695.07,"end":3715.837,"text":"設立研發據點第二個工部門投入的預算力規劃成長有25倍應以工建計畫在高雄設立算力中心矽光子研發據點算力中心中的兩個十大AI十大建設中的這兩項就應該在高雄"},{"start":3716.497,"end":3742.66,"text":"那AI十大建設如何落地呢既然有這個諾貝爾獎的一個啟示再看我們的前主委劉靜卿她也講了台灣的半導體產業的失宏大概是2032年就會結束最多再延兩年2035年好 台灣下一個十年的核心產業是什麼AI新十大建設如何落地"},{"start":3743.981,"end":3762.597,"text":"簡單這三個字關鍵技術在COOP西光子技術重大建設在篆力中心落腳就是在高雄好在西光子技術在高雄的必要性兩點第一個半導體設備的國產化當然有利於晶圓製造業強化供應鏈的韌性"},{"start":3764.778,"end":3785.156,"text":"第二個矽光子是以光訊息代替電訊息以光收發模組來代替金屬導線它當然有這三大特性比電子的還好是以矽光子來取代可以有高傳輸低耗能微型化來解決未來"},{"start":3787.758,"end":3810.857,"text":"資訊中心跟數據傳輸瓶頸的關鍵技術既然它可以比我們的電子更好的情況之下投入當然是必要的了好 台積電在最新的晶片設計已經發表了COOP西光子的引擎結合晶片封裝與光學傳輸也預計他們要covers的一起的量產"},{"start":3811.758,"end":3835.583,"text":"好高雄市有台積電高雄市有日月光是國內二奈米跟先進封裝的重鎮所以你的矽光子的供應鏈當然就要就近資源晶圓製造的地點輔導國內所有相關法人模組的廠商檢測業者落地進駐兩個地方南子園區跟橋頭園區"},{"start":3838.644,"end":3859.324,"text":"好AI十大建設中的算力中心本期再講一次了高雄還是最適合的為什麼呢原因有三第一個高雄百工百業對算力的需求最大第二個高雄的人員自主力最高第三個高雄有發展的決心中央投資成本是最低的"},{"start":3859.804,"end":3875.39,"text":"好我們說到AI十大建設的算力中心在高雄其中最適合的第一個原因百工百業對算力的需求最大傳統產業與中小企業是高雄的經濟基礎包括農業等"},{"start":3877.151,"end":3904.628,"text":"那所以呢高雄的相關金屬加工製造業我們的總產值是2330億其中螺絲螺帽等扣借業的蘇美的產值是達到了四分之一多523億相關產業最需要的AI協助轉型提升產品的良率跟降低排碳所以如果你要AI的運用旗艦城市非高雄莫屬"},{"start":3905.689,"end":3912.62,"text":"那高雄的人員自給率最高過去發展重工業高雄的電力自給率是152.9%超過台北的1.4%超過台中的86%而且目前也積極推動屋頂光電"},{"start":3920.993,"end":3946.83,"text":"所以這整個光電的總備案容量已經突破了一居高超過雙倍全國最不可能缺電的城市最適合設置算率中心的就是在高雄那第三個高雄有發展的決心中央投資成本最高高雄在今年已經攜手了輝達鴻海各電信業者打造全國第一個城市級的主權AI"},{"start":3949.432,"end":3966.679,"text":"在高雄雅灣這個以鴻海 以輝達的超級晶片的這個GB200的伺服器為核心來建置算力中心 這是民間喔他們民間也預計2026年明年完工喔那中央你做了什麼事"},{"start":3967.099,"end":3991.745,"text":"你只有擴大投資建設公部門的算力中心鼓勵企業運用算力才能促成百工百業的轉型諸位要看清楚民間已經走在前面了你有AI十大建設其中的算力中心你要公部門投入現在你要落腳在哪裡不二選擇就是在高雄"},{"start":3992.305,"end":4019.397,"text":"好AI新十大建設要具體落地高雄高雄高雄無人載具跟AI都需要百工百業的垂直運用而無人載具用的控制跟操作都是仰賴人工智慧所以在高雄形成人工智慧矽光子無人機的產業鏈與產業聚落才是對國家最好的政策護國產業在高雄"},{"start":4020.855,"end":4039.012,"text":"我這句話再講清楚 高雄市形成人工智慧 矽光子 無人機這三大產業鏈跟產業聚落 才是對國家最好的策略護國產業在高雄"},{"start":4039.918,"end":4059.157,"text":"從無人載具與軍工產業推動產業的AI化這個我就稍微提一下在10月3號對卓院長的質詢要求在高雄設立國際AI無人載具產業中心再次的在10月13號對鞏部長的質詢提出了無人機可以平站轉換"},{"start":4060.878,"end":4085.272,"text":"的一個這樣的論點以及我們的無人船已經應用在AI國內的台船中信中科院榮德其實都已經在做無人船的研發高雄的旗津跟興達港是打造研發跟測試的基地這些都需要AI也就是你的算力中心這個工建工部門投資的工建"},{"start":4085.812,"end":4114.345,"text":"的一個設施來支援我們的這個無人載具的產業聚落結合我軍工產業無人機無人艇這個無人船的落腳在高雄的一個支援的很重要的工建的設施好這邊具體要求了請國發會檢討AI新十大建設的推動方向引領南部各縣市落地的計畫與施程並在一個月內提供第二個請國發會"},{"start":4116.506,"end":4137.791,"text":"規劃高雄設置矽光子產業開發平台及算力中心來接軌二奈米跟先進封裝的量產趨速加速推動半導體設備的自主國產化好來主委請回答題目很簡單AI十大建設當中的兩大建設矽光子的一個這個開發平台"},{"start":4143.012,"end":4164.822,"text":"第二個算率中心那就是在高雄請具體回應好謝謝委員那我就這兩個委員關心的議題回應委員就是說在矽光子這個部分的話我目前就是說經濟部正在討論那經濟部原則上來講會傾向就是說在矽光子這個部分的開發可能會在高雄這個部分那非常好"},{"start":4166.082,"end":4187.82,"text":"再講一次經濟部的矽光子的平台目前規劃在高雄是嗎在規劃在哪裡在規劃在高雄好OK好那繼續對那另外一個就算力這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說在公部門這一塊的話因為行政院已經"},{"start":4191.431,"end":4212.127,"text":"定就是說沙倫是新建的AI算力中心但這個部分在高雄這部分我們再跟那個國科會再商量一下看有沒有那一個一些可能這樣子然後另外一個這是公部門私部門這個部分來講的話鴻海就好像剛剛委員的那個簡報也有提到鴻海會在高雄建立所謂的算力中心那另外就是說"},{"start":4213.388,"end":4239.198,"text":"高雄的那個算力中心我們可能正在研議說是不是納入AI新時代建設所以你想這是另外一個我講的你雖然說沙崙在現在目前是公部門的放在這個沙崙那你現在在高雄的你要研發什麼你要在算力中心你要做什麼規劃算力中心的話就私部門這一塊會在那個高雄什麼叫做私部門鴻海鴻海那他做就好啦不需要你花什麼錢啊"},{"start":4240.595,"end":4256.454,"text":"他自己花錢本席要求我已經講了很明了如果你的我的這個無人載具產業中心是在這是經濟部在做研議他現在在做研議你的無人載具AI中心是在落腳在高雄無人機無人艇"},{"start":4258.075,"end":4273.985,"text":"這樣的一個的軍工產業要在接軌台美的軍工產業鏈當中那這個持足都是要算力中心的資源所以你在沙崙我沒有意見你沒有在一個直接在高雄支援的話"},{"start":4274.645,"end":4298.857,"text":"那你不可能有能夠撐起在整個全國在台美的軍工產業當中無人機無人艇的一個落實聚落在高雄所以你很明顯高雄是比台南更有產業聚落的你不要再重蹈加藝無人機的錯誤有水有電還有什麼有聚落"},{"start":4299.477,"end":4314.874,"text":"如果說你的算力中心要有水有電有聚酪 這個聚酪很明顯未來的這個無人載具 軍工產業無人機無人艇在高雄的話你沒有一個公建的部門你都要刻意的揮打 把我們擠完這樣說的說得對"},{"start":4316.696,"end":4336.287,"text":"一個國家級的無人載具中心然後你說你的無人算地中心是在靠個揮打然後你有十大建設50億然後這個東西高雄就不需要那你覺得講得過去嗎 研議一下好嗎好 我們會跟一個月內提出來好嗎好 就照委員說的一個月內將什麼資料跟委員來討論 謝謝"},{"start":4347.199,"end":4371.215,"text":"好 接下來我們請邱議員委員請做答詢謝謝主席 我請一下主委我們再請主委委員好主委好 主委這應該是您第一次到立法院來備詢會不會很緊張"},{"start":4377.141,"end":4381.192,"text":"會好放輕鬆我會盡量溫柔的對待你"},{"start":4383.746,"end":4408.6,"text":"來主委這個您剛剛的報告內容其實提到了一個叫做均衡台灣跟兆元投資方案所以在您的報告內容提到了台灣現在有一個我們的均衡台灣有這個八大施政主軸之一就是所謂的六大區域產業生活圈這六大區域產業生活圈您能背得起來嗎"},{"start":4410.536,"end":4426.531,"text":"北部的话就是首都黄金狼带然后接下来就是桃竹苗大系股中部是智慧精密制造南部是大南方新系股然后接下来是东部的是慢活那离岛是快活"},{"start":4427.233,"end":4448.387,"text":"好看起來這個第一題考驗已經通過就這個國發會現在所主責的現在所寫的這些報告內容裡頭洋洋灑灑有很多項這個你們講說這個未來要推動的超過152項的工程現在已經有100項以上在執行"},{"start":4449.147,"end":4468.42,"text":"我想进一步请教您所谓的大南方新矽谷三年内的具体投资案有哪一些是已经核定有哪一些在规划你涵盖的园区的更新供水供电设宅你涵盖的内容有哪些您现在可以做一个简略的说明吗"},{"start":4469.81,"end":4488.815,"text":"據我這邊的資料來看的話目前大概有100項然後整個總金額就是大南方新矽谷這個部分包括嘉南高坪這四個地區那就是100項那大概有兩兆那基本上就是說有分你的100項是包含哪一個包含你的報告第15頁那些交通建設計畫嗎"},{"start":4491.615,"end":4512.644,"text":"是包含這些嗎好那我想進一步請教你15頁講的這些大部分很多都是在南方新矽谷的部分大部分講都是交通建設這些交通建設其實我們都已經講很久了這個大概應該有的已經是核定有的已經開始在蓋了這個我知道我要請教就是說你的所謂大南方新矽谷"},{"start":4514.366,"end":4524.121,"text":"一直談到的是新矽谷未來的智慧AI科技狼帶要往南方去移動的時候國發會有些什麼樣新的規劃有沒有"},{"start":4524.639,"end":4548.575,"text":"就目前為止的話我跟委員報告就是說嘉義部分的話嘉義園區有分第一期跟第二期那台南的話有自己一個台南園區還有那個沙崙資料中心在嘉義園區做什麼在嘉義園區第一個做那個無人機產業這個部分好做無人機產業那現在做的怎麼樣無人機產業的推動怎麼樣正在蓋"},{"start":4549.946,"end":4561.627,"text":"你這是蓋一個園區對不對你現在是蓋一個園區但是我要問的是說無人機的整個產業包括研發 製造 你的產業鏈"},{"start":4563.722,"end":4582.376,"text":"包括我們的無人機的這一些應該怎麼說無人機的載具也好不管你是做載具或者是做其他的用途我們的整個製造的時程跟世界先進國家比起來我們有沒有辦法"},{"start":4583.936,"end":4610.674,"text":"跟得上人家的水準你現在跟我講的是蓋一個園區我覺得蓋園區那是很簡單的事情但是我們要看的不是蓋園區我們要看的是整體發展的趨勢跟方向那你現在講的這些大南方新矽谷我不知道落腳在高雄的規劃有哪一些未來你的均衡發展你的遷移投資 兆元投資到底"},{"start":4611.983,"end":4635.882,"text":"分配是怎麼樣分配北中南的分配額度大概是怎麼樣的分配方式有沒有做這樣子的規劃或者是有沒有做這樣的統計有沒有就高雄這個部分的話我們有所謂的橋頭的那個橋頭跟南子園區橋頭跟南子園區現在已經在做了啦我知道啦我現在要講的就是說你們有沒有一些新一點的規劃你不要緊張"},{"start":4638.305,"end":4660.75,"text":"我知道您剛上任沒有要逼你的意思但我現在要談的就是說國發會當然你的計畫很多是延續性的那你現在所謂的區域均衡發展區域的商業產業圈包括兆元投資這件事情我們想要更進一步了解你的兆元投資對於南方大矽谷這一個"},{"start":4664.422,"end":4692.798,"text":"這個大象的計畫有沒有更多的支援你講的都是已經在做的東西我要問的是未來或者還在規劃中有沒有更進一步的東西好我進一步請教我想這個可能這個請幕僚單位是不是會後再補充一些資料給我那也讓主委也能夠可以跟得上這個進度您的報告裡面我現在跟您請教一件事情報告裡面有談到所謂的兆元投資國家方案"},{"start":4693.718,"end":4719.883,"text":"有一個叫做保險資金投入基礎建設投入基礎建設跟投入公共建設是兩個不同的事情國發會說你們要設立一個單一窗口即日起受理線上申請那你的認定範圍你馬上就把一個認定範圍你的所謂的基礎建設的範圍就已經寫好了物流中心環境污染防治設備數位建設多功能農業設施等"},{"start":4722.444,"end":4749.546,"text":"請教一下國發會在保險資金投入不管是基礎建設還是公共建設這件事情上面你所扮演的角色是什麼你設立一個單一窗口這個單一窗口你是負責重建或者是負責轉建還是說你們跟金管會彼此之間扮演一個什麼樣的角色因為保險業者是在金管會所主責管理所以保險的資金要投入這樣的一個基礎建設的時候"},{"start":4751.488,"end":4774.181,"text":"到底是誰負責主責來 主委我們跟金管會的合作是說金管會那一邊會去配合修改法令那我們這一邊就是會負責收件我們只是負責收件然後轉然後轉給相關的目的事業主管機關由目的事業主管機關來認定這個是不是所謂基礎建設"},{"start":4774.761,"end":4795.169,"text":"那那個範圍當然當然委員你這邊的那一個項目可能可能還會更多一些啦不會就只這些但是這個是不是基礎建設要由目的事業主管對嘛他到底是不是算基礎建設還是他是你說他可以投入公共建設哪些範疇是屬於公共建設的範圍裡頭這個你們應該跟金管會"},{"start":4798.67,"end":4823.961,"text":"還要再更進一步的去詳談嘛那就國發會的立場上我看起來其實國發會的功能也不太大你只是轉件而已嘛你設立一個窗口讓他來轉件那為什麼他不能直接去跟金管會申請要透過你國發會然後轉一個件轉一手然後再去到金管會那金管會其實對於管理這些資金上面金管會的態度"},{"start":4824.781,"end":4846.692,"text":"跟行為其實是非常的保守嚴謹當然因為這些保險業者的這些資金是來自於投資人所以他會是相對在房幣上面他其實是相對非常嚴謹的所以對於這些保險資金的投入"},{"start":4847.532,"end":4868.717,"text":"你覺得如果說金管會只是稍微修改了一下法令但是基本態度沒有變那國發會有只是轉件而已那你覺得對於保險資金的投入能夠帶來多少利多簡單講就是說你認為多少保險業者會願意去投入這樣的公共建設"},{"start":4871.811,"end":4892.467,"text":"跟委员报告就是说我们为什么国发会会是唯一的一个收建的窗口因为我们希望就是一站式的服务就好像我们这一次在花莲一样就是说有一个组织的单位那它会统合所有的资源那你只要送件进来我们就可以帮你看那看完之后我们会给相关的那一个部会那由他们去认定这样子"},{"start":4893.047,"end":4912.479,"text":"所以基本上就是對我們來講的話我們其實功能不會說只是轉介而已我們會是統合所有的那一個部會然後會很清楚的界定就是說這個到底是哪一個部會要組織那另外一個就是說儘管會其實在這一次的那一個開放保險業進入那個攻堅的話其實他也相對去調降那一個風險係數"},{"start":4915.16,"end":4932.331,"text":"RBC的那个风险系数因为我时间已经到了所以我还是要提醒一下就是说我觉得站在国发会的立场应该是要促进能够更多能够让国家持续发展的各种的投资所以你们的立场不会是只是说我看过不会不会"},{"start":4932.911,"end":4955.268,"text":"應該是說你要協助不管是受險業者或者是協助公共的參與投資建設的參與者大家在這一方面法令上該放寬的法令上該怎麼樣協助的我覺得站在國發會的角度應該是要給予更多的協助的角色甚至透過你們去做跨部會的協調好不好"},{"start":4955.848,"end":4976.489,"text":"那至於我剛剛關心的大南方新矽谷的這個整體的預算配置包括投資的配置我希望高雄能夠受到比較多的青睞這個新的科技狼帶已經形成所以我想要知道你們的整個投資配置大概是怎麼樣是不是能夠也給本席一個報告我會給那個委員書面解答 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4983.021,"end":4997.535,"text":"主委 我想主席才建議因為每個委員都希望知道國發會的角色跟你們的作為我們也希望就是說在回答的時候能夠救你的專業所以你不用緊張救你的專業就對了"},{"start":4999.136,"end":5027.413,"text":"這一點非常重要因為我們運用了這麼多時間重點就是國人都在看我們希望國家的官員尤其在國發會國發會不是只有一個收建單位國發會是整個國家產業最重要的心臟跟頭腦好不好從你的專業你們所做的要坦白的實際的來報告給委員這個才是國人要看的以上建議接下來我們請謝一鳳委員請做詢答"},{"start":5036.141,"end":5041.957,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的葉主委好 我們再請葉主委"},{"start":5047.671,"end":5075.136,"text":"主委我想请教现在美国还有两个地区的银行发生了这样子信贷的危机那我想要请问你对于美国整个银行体系会不会有像2008年那样子的一个整体的系统性的风险再加上目前美国他们"},{"start":5076.056,"end":5102.915,"text":"的股市裡面對於AI的泡沫化也提出了相關的事情因為有非常多新創的公司目前並沒有就是那些新創公司都是投資AI的相關產業但是他們的市值很高卻是沒有任何的盈餘"},{"start":5104.818,"end":5124.837,"text":"市場在擔心會不會回歸到過去的.com的那樣子的一個泡沫化的危機我認為這些問題很重要的原因在於我們台灣如果未來政府要發展成為亞洲資產管理中心那"},{"start":5125.257,"end":5143.212,"text":"我們的政府部門對於相關的系統性的風險一定要有所掌控那我想要了解畢竟你是跨產業而且你對於國際的情勢都要了解的那你是不是能給予我們國人一個說明"},{"start":5144.684,"end":5163.315,"text":"第一个先跟委员报告就是说这一次的那一个AI的整个复苏跟2000年的那个.com bubble有一点点不一样就是说.com bubble它其实整个的发展过程当中并没有产生出很多的所谓的中断应用它那个产业"},{"start":5164.275,"end":5183.289,"text":"拓展出來的其實沒有想像那麼多那通常都是只是在一些網路上面比較多的一些應用那這一次的那一個AI這個部分來講的話其實它慢慢的我們會看到就是說它除了從雲端目前的發展的情況通常都在雲端也就是說很多的資料中心在建置它的算力"},{"start":5183.729,"end":5208.999,"text":"那這個算力都是放在雲端那從雲端會慢慢的落實到中端所謂中端就會落實到我們的比如說筆電或者是我們的手機這樣的一個應用上面還有產業吧現在我們正在推動的就是我們傳產以及我們精密機械等等相關產業的AI的產線"},{"start":5211.32,"end":5234.749,"text":"我們怎麼樣子擴大這個產線的應用那所以我才要要問的是主委現在目前那個美國的AI的新創公司他們的他們的那個產值已經到達了一兆的市值已經到達了一兆的美元但是都沒有產生相關的盈餘啊那"},{"start":5235.789,"end":5261.338,"text":"這個東西對於美國他會不會有一些市場性整個有系統性的風險再加上現在地區銀行有發生了這樣子炸彈的這樣子的問題那會不會導致全部有一個系統在美國如果產生系統性的風險的時候會不會像過去2008年產生全球性的金融的這樣子的危機這"},{"start":5262.638,"end":5288.04,"text":"是我想要请教主委的是不是你能就这个回答一下就这个部分来讲就是说很多新创产业在发展AI的很多应用那这个应用上面来讲的话它其实在财务操作上面来讲可能没有像以前的那个Dakan Bubble那么的杠杆倍数那么的高所以目前虽然说有一些新创公司市值很高但是很亏损的一个情况的话"},{"start":5288.561,"end":5294.822,"text":"可能可以經由市場上面的一些機制讓這些那你覺得現在AI的應用面廣不廣"},{"start":5295.578,"end":5323.876,"text":"我觉得现在应用面还没有大家想象那么多但是它是持续的在成长当中那它的应用面在台湾的这个推广上面你觉得目前进展如何台湾的推转面上面来讲的话AI大概分两块一个是硬体跟软体那我们台湾的话就是硬体相对比较基础建设这边做得比较好但是软体上面来讲就软体应用上面来讲相对比较缺乏一些这样子"},{"start":5324.076,"end":5350.752,"text":"好那我還要再問你因為你們是台積電的股東嘛對不對那就台積電我們目前我們擁有的是半導體的先進的技術那但是美國可能還對於半導體的整體的技術以及我們是製造的技術嘛美國是整個半導體的技術以及相關的設備等等的那"},{"start":5351.172,"end":5375.481,"text":"我們如果去到美國我們現在要把他去到我們台積電要去到美國去投資那蕭副總統所說的到底是台灣的投資就是說台灣半導體企業的投資還是我們政府的投資他說去美國這樣子的聚落啊或者是這樣子的生態系已經已經形成了是不是"},{"start":5377.102,"end":5403.16,"text":"基本上台积电去美国投资我们会把它当作是一个企业投资毕竟它是台湾的上市规公司只是说他把整个供应链都带去了这个部分跟委员分享就是说这一次的方式跟以往就是说我们在全球化就是1980年代一直到2020年代这一段期间全球化有一个很大的一个差异性就是说美国的产业外移它是一整个产业链切一块"},{"start":5404.212,"end":5418.13,"text":"然后跑到那个东亚国家这边譬如说像半导体那这样的一个切分的一个方式在Harvard Business Review2009年有一篇文章在讨论就是说这样的一个切分方式其实对"},{"start":5419.266,"end":5441.056,"text":"美國的製造業以及製造業的創新其實有非常大的一個傷害那我們這一次的方式跟他們其實有點不一樣我們雖然是整個產業鏈是複製過去而不是說整個切然後移到美國那邊去所以整個性質上面來講會有很大的一個差異性那在那一篇文章也非常強調就是說"},{"start":5442.596,"end":5467.75,"text":"當你在整個供應鏈重組的過程當中的話保留一些製造尤其是先進而且是關鍵的製造在本土的話其實對於本土的那一個創新其實有很大的幫助那現在目前政府大概是做得方但是其實我們知道了雖然我們要到美國去可是目前他必須大量的仰賴台灣的科技人才"},{"start":5468.49,"end":5488.64,"text":"那我們的科技人才如果都到美國去了其實如果就你們所說的我們台灣還留下最先進的製程的時候那我們的人才從哪裡而來那我們現在訓練了這麼多大量的人才會不會到時候就變成就在幫美國做"},{"start":5489.8,"end":5513.471,"text":"職工訓練嘛是不是那我們自己台灣的最先進的N-1的這一代的台積電的還有相關的其他的AI的發展的相關的人才那我們怎麼辦呢那他如果大量的延攬我們的人才到美國去難道我們的大學就成為美國人才的訓練庫是不是"},{"start":5514.371,"end":5523.159,"text":"跟我有報告我自己有幾個朋友是在台積電工作也有派到美國可是他們跟我講說他其實不太想出去因為美國其實"},{"start":5524.724,"end":5553.528,"text":"有在美國生活過的其實很難去適應美國那個生活方式還是台灣會比較好所以其實台積電扮演的一個角色其實是在幫美國建構他們自己本土的人才那所以我們在這邊的話我們會會當作就是說替全世界在台灣培育各國所需要的一些半導體的人才所以像台積電的話他在台中他就有一個類似一個Camp那這個Camp就是說你今天假如說"},{"start":5554.388,"end":5582.084,"text":"外國人要派到日本或派到德國的話他會先來台灣受兩個月到三個月的一個training那完了之後再送回去所以委員擔心的這個部分的話目前來講看起來是沒有那一個跡象但這個部分當然我們要持續的去關注因為我們也不清楚就是說因為他還是你要建廠然後建廠如果只擔用美國的人才有時候也沒那麼快那要讓才能上線那也需要"},{"start":5582.904,"end":5607.332,"text":"台灣的第一批的人才先過去所以我們當然擔心說你這樣子會把整個供應鏈那甚至如果所有的供應鏈都到美國去了那是會來在排擠方面會不會造成台灣的產業園區或科學園區空洞化那再來就是你都在補助像半導體相關的產業那我們現在所"},{"start":5607.972,"end":5636.079,"text":"我們經濟成長所依賴的有部分是因為搶單有部分是因為232裡面半導體在搶單那未來台灣的這個中小型微企業那怎麼生存 你的租會優稅還有對於我們非半導體的傳產對於水電方面 土地方面有沒有任何的協助這才是我們民眾想要關心的嘛 是不是是"},{"start":5637.639,"end":5659.23,"text":"對啊你不能夠把整個都移到那裡人才都去那裡結果台灣的傳產台灣的半導體還有未來AI的發展都沒有留下相關的科技人才也沒有對於相關的租稅土地還有水電等等給予台灣廠商尤其是最辛苦的傳產給予他們協助是不是"},{"start":5661.531,"end":5685.888,"text":"這個傳產這個部分來講的話幾天前我剛剛有碰到工部長工部長有大概分享就是說他們目前就是說那一個特別預算通過之後有匡了大概461億讓中小企業開始去做一些升級轉型那他跟我分享是說還蠻踴躍的也就是說中小企業在這一波關稅的衝擊之下"},{"start":5686.348,"end":5713.931,"text":"你不能只聽經濟部長吧你要有自己的看法嘛除了他之外我當然還有收集意見你要聽委員的意見嘛委員的意見也很重要你要聽委員的意見怎麼會只聽工部長所以我大概跟那個委員分享說目前中小企業其實都還蠻積極在做AI的轉型好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請邱志維委員請做詢問"},{"start":5725.11,"end":5748.365,"text":"謝謝主席 我請國發會的葉主委我們再請葉主委委員長 各位您好各位 今天的施政報告大概討論一個主題就是均衡台灣均衡台灣大概我認為有三大方向第一個就是產業要均衡第二個 區域要均衡第三個 所得要均衡"},{"start":5749.931,"end":5756.036,"text":"產業當然包括這個高科技半導體等等AI傳統跟服務業很重要所以如何讓這個"},{"start":5757.971,"end":5785.131,"text":"产业能够均衡发展你看这个现在的股市到27000 28000那经济成长数据也非常漂亮包括中间的估计组织总数的估计GDP大概5.4 5.5左右那但是它的三大造成构成GDP组成的这个项目里面我们对这个出口的这个年增率24%投资也增加将近10%但是消费"},{"start":5786.44,"end":5812.632,"text":"消費時值成長只有零點不到1%所以這個部分發現就是說把這個出口跟投資都集中在AI跟半導體這傳統產業 你看股價傳統產業包括這個扣件 石化等等它的這個股價是大概是十幾年來最低的甚至還腰斬 收入也減少所以在產業的不均衡所以你看看的數字很漂亮"},{"start":5814.522,"end":5839.998,"text":"國勢上將近三萬點國民所得超越南韓 超越日本那實際上人民的感覺是有很嚴重的差異北 中南有差異 區域有差異世代有差異年輕人私裕率比一般人還高所以你要做到居上台灣不是一個表面數字而已你要確實去考慮到這個產業是不是能夠透過這次五大世代產業也能帶動傳統產業來發展"},{"start":5843.777,"end":5862.134,"text":"所以第一个问题要请到这个业主委目前的经济成长的红利都集中在特殊产业AI跟半导体那这个大部分的这个从业我们这个国人工作很多都是做这个传统产业跟服务业他们对于经济成长并没有很直接的感觉反而是比以前更退步"},{"start":5863.713,"end":5875.163,"text":"這個部分你要怎麼樣去落實這個五大核心產業五大信賴產業然後又能夠帶動這個傳統產業的發展我想請教你的意見第一個就是說我們"},{"start":5876.721,"end":5903.797,"text":"我们在执行所谓的AI新时代建设的过程当中的话不只是在鼓励所谓的AI产业委员如果还知道的话我们那五个项目里面有一个叫做百工百业智慧应用那百工百业智慧应用的话其实很大一部分都是在鼓励所谓的中小企业在做AI转型我有请教过资策会资策会扮演一些角色但目前是真的医疗跟这个餐饮业而已啊"},{"start":5904.497,"end":5933.203,"text":"所以你说我选区这个金属扣件金属扣件是面临到这个三四年最大的寒冬最大的挑战所以我们政府应该要提供更多的协助让他们可以渡过这个难关所以大家都跟我说哇 这个经济成长跟他们完全没有关系员工也是如此 老板也是如此所以军团台湾不能只成为一个口号你要让人家觉得的确政府在追求军团台湾的过程中所有产业都是同步成长"},{"start":5934.36,"end":5954.225,"text":"所以我觉得这个部分你应该有一个全盘的国家发展战略而不是针对五大信贷产业或者过去的六大核心产业而已特别是相对如果是在这一波经济成长里面并没有受惠的这些产业服务业等等传统制造业石化钢铁等等院生在道爱红片野"},{"start":5955.478,"end":5974.653,"text":"所以是兩個世界所以這部分我提醒您能夠針對非高科技產業能夠提出有更多的振興計畫跟均衡產業協助的這些計畫另外第二個問題是說區域要均衡因為六大區域發展計畫"},{"start":5976.414,"end":6005.086,"text":"北北基到桃花柱廟中庄桐等等我觉得这是一个目标但是你要怎么透过这些均衡台湾透过这个区域的均衡达到这个所得的均衡或者地方发展的这个均衡这个部分我看到你们提出这个方向跟愿景但是这个六大区域发展计划你说要争就业提薪资繁地方这是一个目标跟口号但是能不能具体落实我不知道"},{"start":6006.369,"end":6020.175,"text":"就看一下那個失業率來看失業率啊高雄過去認為說這個相對經濟資源不夠但是高雄市六都失業率最低的一個六都啊"},{"start":6021.844,"end":6050.239,"text":"為什麼過去高雄市失業率比較高為什麼變成目前失業率最低任何政策的結果不是天上掉下來的那政策結果都是要一步一腳進去去招商去讓青年人能夠留在這個高雄所以我們不管是總理失業率高雄市是六度最低青年失業率也是六度最低但是其他的縣市也蠻高的我不好意思說其他哪些縣市但一定是"},{"start":6051.334,"end":6074.805,"text":"有一些狀況沒有被排除沒有被重視嘛所以你那個失業率代表說你的所得就不均衡嘛所以我希望說國會 葉主委您上任之後要有個新的思維要用更高的這個視野國家戰略角度怎麼去落實這個均衡台灣從所得落實從這個區域發展落實跟產業發展落實這個部分我提醒您這個"},{"start":6078.734,"end":6091.702,"text":"這個未來還有很長路要走 這個是一個非常重要而且很核心 為關系到台灣未來這個生存發展的一個重要的關鍵那另外一個就是 關於這個"},{"start":6096.042,"end":6117.518,"text":"過去的六大核心戰略產業在蔡英文總統的時候跟現在的五大現代產業差別大概就是多了一個能源項目能源轉型很重要能源轉型不是一觸可及的但這個方向絕對是正確的不能被少數個案去抹殺這個政策的正面意義跟未來能源轉型的一個重要性"},{"start":6118.778,"end":6136.665,"text":"所以未來2030年我們要達到這個2030年要達到這個30%的再生能源這個部分是我們要努力的目標但是有很多的不可控的部分你看這個再生能源的部分最大的這個佔比是這個福利發電"},{"start":6138.223,"end":6165.917,"text":"封建方案要離岸封建跟陸域封建我們沒有辦法允許陸域封建只能離岸封建所以站在一個國安會的角度你要跟經濟部協調跟環境部協調跟國防部協調為什麼我們的離岸封建沒有辦法落實當然有國際到環境的變化包括整體川普的反對包括整個供應鏈的吃緊包括利率的升高台灣也是面臨到這種狀況"},{"start":6167.878,"end":6191.348,"text":"那对于这个能源转型国化会有没有什么看法我们这一边就是说在经济部这一边来讲的话它中长期的用电成长已经纳入半导体AI新兴科技的发展需求那经济部也对于那一个燃气机组的装置容量也有一些提一些计划比如说它要增加大概1200万瓦"},{"start":6191.828,"end":6218.329,"text":"我覺得這個現在回答可能太detail我覺得我提這個問題出來就是希望說你做一個整合者協調者你要跟相關部隊協調為什麼沒有辦法落實到原先的發電比我的目標跟現在差距有多少問題在哪裡要怎麼去排除這是您要做的工作另外這個國發基金你要投資一定也要均衡這部分我很關心對新創對南部的投資"},{"start":6219.335,"end":6243.26,"text":"你們過去國發基金這個投資都是集中在北部而且對新創的比例也比較少所以我認為未來你們應該立即的調整你們投資的方向不要集中在北部中南部只有個位數所以這個部分我覺得你站在均衡台灣的角度這個是背道而馳"},{"start":6244.921,"end":6270.299,"text":"所以对新创的你们福祉也不够要不是我极力坚持你们国家基金还没有在南部设立办公室是我坚持这样才有办公室但是具体成果怎么样还是有限的跟我期待的目标差很多你要把过去的西方商务变成绿洲不是不可行是你要不要做而已有没有这个决心而已"},{"start":6271.266,"end":6284.304,"text":"你從你投資的比例來看這個比例你能看嗎這我要怎麼對南部的這些年輕的新創新創家來做一個說明跟交代呢所有都集中在北部所以我認為國際經濟執行長也在"},{"start":6287.168,"end":6313.189,"text":"这个部分我也跟你们提醒很多次我也跟你们建议很多次国家基金绝对要站在比较协助要不是获利的角度辅导的角度而不是你要确保获利你对一般的IPO公司的投资那当然是有一定的获利的意识但是你对新创企业投资你不要单纯站在获利的角度你要站在辅导协助的角度包括你投资比例你要增加一点点"},{"start":6313.942,"end":6337.038,"text":"比方說更有誘因1.5比1你填足投資機構跟國際基金1.5比1那個高副主委之前我還給你提到過你們必須不要聽過然後就就就冤消雲散了我們必須去落實是不是可以可行然後對這個餅夠大但是你們比較小區去做分配"},{"start":6338.802,"end":6359.321,"text":"门槛也比较高年轻人需要就是第一统计需要政府的协助那你给他设计那么多的门槛当然你要达到初期创业你要达到这个门槛是很困难的所以把门槛稍微降低合理的降低然后呢给更多新创企业更多的协助而不是从获利的角度然后区域均衡"},{"start":6360.782,"end":6379.435,"text":"這個台南高雄跟這個台中新創你們投資實在是比例是過低這裡你必須要去做一些調整以上建議謝謝委員的意見我們會待會去研究謝謝好我們接下來請這個楊求英召委"},{"start":6386.786,"end":6390.093,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊瑜發言 邀請主委主委"},{"start":6396.075,"end":6423.429,"text":"趙薇好主委好我們首先來討論我們的晶片產業蕭敏琴副總統日前她接受了CBC的一個訪問那她也提出我們已承諾在美投資不只是台積電還包括整個生態系您知道這回事嗎在她要回答這些事情的時候您知道這回事嗎"},{"start":6424.693,"end":6449.221,"text":"你知道這個答案嗎最不知道沒關係你告訴我就好因為我才上任一個月而已不管你上任不上任你現在是國防會的主委剛才我在主席台也建議你就你的專業那本席再強調在鄉府總統回答CBC之前您知不知道這件事情"},{"start":6450.074,"end":6478.386,"text":"有一些媒體都有在說你是看媒體的嘛所以你不知道政府的方向是不是所以就是不知道那所以本席要請教他說台灣已經承諾在美國投資晶片產業不只是台積電還包括了整個生態跟其他的部分從供應鏈到設計商乃至其他晶片製造公司那台灣"},{"start":6479.466,"end":6501.763,"text":"也與英特爾的這個美國來合作那要提升整個的生產力所以本席要請教 您現在是主委請教晶片以及製造供應鏈生態系是台灣我們產業競爭的重中之重 對不對是"},{"start":6503.104,"end":6527.863,"text":"是不是 是那現在不只是台積電來投資國家主導的整個整個生態系都要過去那副總統呢這個他沒有在國內說明那卻在外媒訪問的時候來透露來透露所以請問到目前為止行政院有沒有討論過有沒有討論過"},{"start":6531.755,"end":6550.557,"text":"因為你已經上任一個多月了 有沒有討論過你說台積電這個副門員因為那個副院長好像是生態系的產業包括整個生態系的產業已經承諾在美投資請教我們行政院有沒有討論過有沒有"},{"start":6554.223,"end":6579.424,"text":"對 我們這個部分都有跟跨部會去做協商那剛剛委員提到不是協商 有沒有討論過就是跨部會的討論然後就整個那個生態系其實就是好像所以其實政府是本來就知道這個生態系要在美投資的一系列是不是沒有整個的話所有的那一個細節部分的話沒有像"},{"start":6580.365,"end":6590.31,"text":"委員說得出的那種所有都知道沒有 這只是一個概念性的沒有這樣 可是一個副總統接受到外媒已經宣布了他說我們已經承諾在美投資所以主委沒關係 你不用緊張你還不了解這一個事項是不是"},{"start":6602.225,"end":6624.991,"text":"裡面的有一些detail然後另外一個就是說我們對美談判我們國發會目前來講的話只是一個幕僚單位就是沒有直接參與談判本席不再同意你經常說我只是一個收建單位窗口我只是一個幕僚本席再一次強調您是國家非常非常重要"},{"start":6626.021,"end":6640.548,"text":"的頭腦跟心臟你這個角色很重要所有國家的重大投資都必須在你整合所有的部會做成最後的決議跟行政院對不對"},{"start":6641.664,"end":6657.541,"text":"是啊 所以你要看重你自己啊我們現在台灣產業碰到這樣子的一個重挫以及民企業界的一個壓力啊我們不希望政府只有聽到我只是一個收件窗口我只是一個幕僚啊"},{"start":6661.752,"end":6682.657,"text":"我再次告訴你 依你的專業所以本期要請教您在討論我們整個國家產業的經濟的時候的項目你有沒有包括在剛剛我們討論的蕭副總統承諾在美投資的這些供應鏈有沒有納入在你這次剛剛報告的範圍之內"},{"start":6685.359,"end":6695.447,"text":"有沒有供應鏈嗎這個部分在我剛剛報告會比較像是著重在國內的發展就是國內的建設這一塊當然是國內的發展跟國內的建設啊因為他的生產鏈都會影響啊有沒有包括請你針對本席的提問"},{"start":6703.814,"end":6728.354,"text":"我們這個部分有一些你有沒有包括你剛才說的你們有討論一個概括有沒有包括已經承諾在美投資的整個生態系的影響度有沒有包括有還是沒有影響度的評估嗎我們這個評估還沒有好那接下來本席要告訴你生態系的產值"},{"start":6729.554,"end":6741.541,"text":"他的規模到底是怎麼樣對國內的影響到底是怎麼樣你們必須要去做完整的評估是不是會會我們會我們會多久時間這個評估可以告訴國人多久時間這個評估可以告訴國人"},{"start":6747.816,"end":6774.027,"text":"主委你今天是國防會的主委請你把時間告訴我因為台積電在1650億元的這個投資美國還一直要喊加碼甚至到3000億所以在這樣的情況之下到底我們會不會變成是推動晶片產業到美國的角色還是只是為了因應美方高額投資晶片產業的期待"},{"start":6775.047,"end":6794.512,"text":"這個很重要對我國內的生產電視影響至極你在所有的評估如果沒有包括跟你剛才所說的沒有包括在這個項目那讓我們會很傻眼你怎麼辦法有辦法評估副總統這麼說你國防會不知情沒有納入這個元素那你的數據怎麼會正常呢多久時間評估告訴本席"},{"start":6803.018,"end":6826.593,"text":"因為這個院裡面有一個專案小組是請問多久時間你國防會整合可以告訴本席這個部分我是不是委員讓我讓我跟那個副院長討論討論一下因為有一些討論一下沒關係你有一個方向你多久時間可以告訴本席三個月方便嗎不方便"},{"start":6829.269,"end":6858.419,"text":"我們的傳統產業集的跟熱鍋上的螞蟻一樣耶副總統都已經說了為什麼還要拖到三個月你告訴我們方向就好了因為目前台美的談判還沒有一個很明確的所以整個做那個評估影響就是因為如此所以你國發會更應該要以本國的產業最大的立即點為站在這個立場嘛你站不站成本席所說的這一點"},{"start":6860.428,"end":6875.764,"text":"贊成吧所以你多久時間可以告訴本席你們的評估納入這個部分會影響還是會更加的因為最主要就是說談判談判還沒有一個結果你剛剛所說的三個月可不可以提前"},{"start":6881.227,"end":6894.513,"text":"你不用緊張你就三個月內你如果提早就趕快將素面資料給本席好嗎這個是對於我們的產業大家非常的緊張不應當到這裡來你沒有辦法回答大家的問題"},{"start":6896.001,"end":6910.988,"text":"加油所以接下來本席要請教我們目前因為本席跟這個金管會在上個禮拜我們都提過也就是國防會我們數險的部分是36.9兆元那其中七成約2.這個"},{"start":6913.809,"end":6942.234,"text":"兆元在投資在海外約七成他是25兆投資在海外那你國外會10月11號你的媒體也說你有兆元的投資國家發展那本席認為授權的部分應該可以將資金投入到我們的公共建設比如說成如我們的社宅我們的建設我們的長照我們的內燃等國內重大的這個投資的建設的契機所以本席要請教"},{"start":6943.294,"end":6958.309,"text":"因為大家都承認我們長期缺乏國內投資的誘因以及它制度的一個調整所以本席告訴你上個禮拜監管會已經答應本席在年底前他們會提出這個方案"},{"start":6961.992,"end":6984.699,"text":"所以本席要請教因為行政院一直喊說亞洲資產管理中心但是我們把資產資金都一直往外移一直往外移所以在這樣情況之下本席請問國發會想引回受險的基金那目前我們卻只有百億的規模百億的規模這個跟"},{"start":6988.2,"end":6995.446,"text":"它的36.9兆元是落差非常的大這個不僅凸顯到我們整個政策的斷層也將措施的把這些資金能夠導入在我們剛剛本席所說的不管是建設 設宅 長照以及綠能這些國內的重大投資所以國防會你是不是跟這個金管會去研擬"},{"start":7013.92,"end":7041.197,"text":"具體的眼裡怎麼樣將資金可以留在台灣建設台灣請教國發會主委這個部分跟委員報告剛剛委員提到那個110那個只是基礎建設這個部分那陸續有一些業者在洽詢所以假如說我們搭配其他的推動方案就是說不光是基礎建設還有其他的一些工建所以換句話說不管工建長照設宅等等"},{"start":7043.294,"end":7066.962,"text":"本席告訴你的是說 我跟你說他有30多兆 七成在海外你要有錢 你才有辦法去引回來你一直點頭表示你的看法跟金管會是一致的金管會已經在上個禮拜告訴本席是在年底的時候他會提出方案 那您呢 您呢我們的方向 請做說明"},{"start":7073.772,"end":7099.288,"text":"就是在民间参与公共建设这个部分的话我们预期会达到2000亿然后在法规松绑调试这个部分的话我们希望会至少完成24件这样子法规松绑是什么法规松绑比如说像这次的修法就是说我们把公共基础建设这一项拉进来对"},{"start":7100.057,"end":7107.998,"text":"所以金管會是年底本期具體要求大家有這個共識你必須要去把你們的項目"},{"start":7109.025,"end":7128.733,"text":"要怎麼樣的有條件式的誘因要趕快跟經管會達成這樣的共識協助國內的產業將這些資金可以回到台灣來而不是只有七成全部到國外去是不是這個方向你如果有方向把書面資料給本席謝謝"},{"start":7140.697,"end":7153.497,"text":"好 接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做這個詢答 謝謝那主席來宣布我們到鄭天才委員詢答結束之後我們休息三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":7171.723,"end":7200.034,"text":"謝謝主席親愛的主委好我們再請主委委員長主委你是很有名的經濟學者謝謝謝謝當過這個中經院的這個院長對啊主席你不用緊張啦你是很專業的而且你現在到了這個位置我們台灣的這個政治啊有碰到兩個非常嚴重的問題"},{"start":7200.974,"end":7225.712,"text":"一個就是政治凌駕的這個專業 你有專業啊所以我們希望來了 你來了以後不只國發會 我們整個國家的這個體制運作專業可以上來 這是一個第二就是因為政治性太強了所以我們現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地我希望你要扮演國發會很重要的角色包括以前研考會已經納到你們這個國發會裡面來 對不對現在政府的研考做得老實講有些地方"},{"start":7226.81,"end":7252.623,"text":"還要再加強一點我希望你進來以後要把那個螺絲釘栓得更緊一點我現在跟你談兩個很具體的個案一個就是台灣Plus一個就是零日供給的這個投資了台灣Plus是為了讓世界看到台灣他是一個中長期的計畫8年要花我們人民納稅錢98億將近100億結果他出了什麼樣的問題"},{"start":7254.376,"end":7271.366,"text":"績效不彰甚至連定位都不明了所以啊他是施政目標迷航了現在只有國發會趕快把羅斯汀穿勤可以把他這個迷航把他救回來我給大家看一下在2025年上一張來2025年的時候2025年的6月5號天下雜誌做了一個專題報導他說啦台灣plus他的組織文化"},{"start":7285.466,"end":7313.753,"text":"編輯採訪缺乏的台灣觀念定位不明左邊這個左邊這一位是台灣Plus英國籍的高層叫艾永青這個事情鬧得非常大他在上個月啊他本來在台灣發展得非常好 薪水很高的喔他在上個月買了一張單程的機票他就回英國去了他說我永遠離開台灣了他提了兩個點也是非常重要的他說啊 包括台灣Plus"},{"start":7315.518,"end":7342.364,"text":"新聞遭受到政治的干擾非常嚴重而且我們台灣還有媒體的公共討論見區極端他說他本來對台灣是非常熱愛的我們台灣的這個公共的這個論壇討論啊是非常理性而且非常熱情的可是現在變成一個極端了所以他就回英國去這兩個問題都非常非常嚴重那為什麼會這麼嚴重我們來找這個病因好不好來我們看下一張"},{"start":7345.185,"end":7372.242,"text":"他的問題出在哪邊他本來是一個要發展國際數位傳播計畫對不對這個是經過國發會審議行政院核定的計畫好 主委現在來到你的專業了他沒有任何的量化指標你會怕這個對不對這多嚴重一個事情政府用人民納稅錢將近"},{"start":7374.392,"end":7394.549,"text":"將近100億結果他的施政的這個目標裡面要怎麼達到他的成績單怎麼樣有具體的量化指標沒有來先看左邊110年的時候到113年他提出從那八大這個疫情的這個績效諸位一個"},{"start":7396.398,"end":7424.679,"text":"連一個量化的指標都沒有就是我要做到什麼 你說你要做到多少成功我們人民納稅錢給你的你要有什麼樣的計畫 達到什麼樣的這個目標一個都沒有這個以前的國發會跟行政院出了問題文化部也出了問題到了今年114年到117年又花40億結果八項變成兩項更嚴重的我給大家看一個"},{"start":7426.476,"end":7451.803,"text":"審計部在去年的2月份審計部跳出來了他說你施政一定要先有計畫對不對一定要很具體的指標量化的指標竟然都沒有連審計部都講話了結果後來文化部說他自己要訂我發現一個大問題了他訂了以後"},{"start":7452.984,"end":7482.03,"text":"非常的不明確來注意我給你看一個東西很重要行政院所屬各機關中長程個案計畫編審的這個要點就是說你要用人民的納稅錢你國家往前有進步的就像台灣plus你要發展國際的世衛傳播好那你的計畫目標你一定要具體的說明而且盡量要產出型或者是成果效益型的指標就是要一個量化的指標嘛結果都沒有"},{"start":7483.474,"end":7506.542,"text":"這是不是國化會現在應該加強的地方注意對不對是不是馬上要做檢討的地方對 因為跟委員報告說這一個案子是我們的百億基金的一職那是由文化部來負責文化部它自己本身有一個管理委員會在做基本上由影視局進行甄選"},{"start":7509.203,"end":7535.003,"text":"主委不好意思我今天本來應該很尊重你讓你把話講完不過因為時間很有限我提醒一個事情不要把責任推給文化部文化部做該做的現在更嚴重我現在跟你講更重要的我說為什麼你的位置這麼重要我們大家對你有期待國發會的角色一定要充分發揮我今天講的是非常具體的你看要盡量以產出型跟成果效益型為指標要有量化的指標"},{"start":7536.444,"end":7561.693,"text":"這個就是你要做的事情了可是國發會到現在沒有做我現在具體的要求你回去重新去檢討好不好要求文化部跟台灣Plus你用人民納稅錢100億喔目前出了這麼多問題你是學經濟的嘛對不對你現在把它這個量化的指標把它很具體的寫出來你到底要達成什麼目標而且要快我跟你講我現在審預算對不對"},{"start":7563.496,"end":7587.823,"text":"立法院審議算一定先看他的計畫嘛看他到底要達成多大的這個量化的這個目標嘛對不對這個東西現在沒有那這樣台灣帕拉斯今年的議算我就沒辦法審喔好不好我們會跟文化部討論就是說怎麼樣來來進進這一個部分各位我今天只是舉這個例子更重要的現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地就是你現在要把那個螺絲釘要栓緊我今天提的是一個辦法如果是中長期的"},{"start":7588.263,"end":7608.454,"text":"你就要合乎量化的指標 好不好你來了以後 希望台灣的政府是有改變的這會努力 好不好 好 另外一個也是很重要的這個寧日公籍 國發基金出的 到處的用了人民的納稅錢 1.1億 每天有事情 國發會出去了出現了一堆問題 出現了一堆問題"},{"start":7617.389,"end":7630.3,"text":"我從5月份開始追這個10月份我還給你我還請你們給我一個內容的說明結果你們要踢給文化部 就剛剛看你跟你剛剛講的是一樣的"},{"start":7633.24,"end":7655.058,"text":"第一個不要踢啤酒好不好這是一個不要文化部踢給國泡會國泡會又踢回去要勇於去認識好不好特別是文化部講得很清楚他說他實施了一段時間以後他一定會把案子送到你們這邊來這個成果會送到你這邊嘛對不對你把這個成果好好地檢視一下好不好好來我們看一下寧日供給出了什麼問題"},{"start":7657.625,"end":7678.793,"text":"第一類 人民納稅錢1.1億然後呢 影視權威啊 他這個 他就平分啦10分是滿分結果出現啦 各位你看 高達8級就只有低於3分"},{"start":7681.101,"end":7708.857,"text":"這是非常前衛的 前衛的當然那個鄭克爽鄭克爽現在出來有一點在開玩笑跟消遣他說現在清了都去灌那個分數啦分數有稍微高一點點不過大概到4到5最嚴重是因為我們人民那麼多人納稅錢收視率那麼差這是一個更嚴重的方恩格這是個非常有名的政論評論家他說什麼來我們看他 看他怎麼講臨日攻擊最後竟然是以步槍擊退"},{"start":7711.192,"end":7733.592,"text":"大陸的解放軍的艦隊跟艦隊激情怎麼編到這麼遠 收視率又差然後呢 一堆都是力營的導演 力營的相關的力友友得力然後呢 黑熊學院的得力欸 年齡熱攻擊裡面還出現黑熊學院在幫忙訓練民防"},{"start":7737.213,"end":7760.396,"text":"你這樣怎麼對得起人民呢那你從國發基金出去每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢耶好不好 所以指委請針對零日供給這個事情我覺得應該應該要好好去做一個檢討包括以後你們要投資上次那個劉指委有答應我了以後不要以後投資是投資公司不要去投資單獨的"},{"start":7762.338,"end":7768.29,"text":"一個G好不好我這上次有答應我的你要做就不能改革好不好最後我用大概30秒時間那個強化國發基金的監督"},{"start":7773.55,"end":7791.601,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨有那時候特別發起所以在立法院裡組成的國發基金有沒有產生弊案的這個調查委員會這個調查報告已經出來了諸位請你跟國發會的同仁好看一看好不好那我知道你非常有理想色彩你在拜訪我的時候你有想你要做一部分的改革我們今天時間有限好不好"},{"start":7792.501,"end":7810.416,"text":"你給我一份報告 一個禮拜好不好把你準備在國發基金怎麼監督不要再產生弊案不要浪費我們人民的納稅錢了另外 已經產生過弊案了包括聯合再生 如星你怎麼解決 我知道你有做的功課啦一個禮拜你給我一份報告 好不好那針對我剛剛講的前面那兩個非常嚴重的"},{"start":7810.976,"end":7828.528,"text":"你趕快把他救回來不要讓他迷航了大概一個禮拜請跟文化部號討論一下做一個比較看你要怎麼把他抓回來正途好不好一定要有具體的量化的這個數據好不好零速攻擊零速攻擊這個以後怎麼去改你大概一個禮拜給我一份報告可以嗎好可以好謝謝主委加油謝謝委員好謝謝我們張祺凱委員的這個詢答"},{"start":7838.783,"end":7862.894,"text":"好 接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答好 主席 各位委員 有請主委我們再請主委"},{"start":7868.376,"end":7884.909,"text":"委員好主委好今天你的報告裡面特別提到半導體尤其是台積電是我們富國神山真的是我們要感恩當時的蔣經國孫運賢院長還有當時的經濟這方面的一些專業的政務官"},{"start":7896.277,"end":7921.802,"text":"执行到现在我们他依然是我们的富国神山我们怎么样去守住刚才我们赵伟啊特别执行提到我们的副总统到美国去承诺而这样的一个这么重大的事实上应该要有先有影响评估啊"},{"start":7923.674,"end":7952.024,"text":"不是說他講了之後到現在也還沒有影響評估這個是一個值得我們要非常非常的趕快做這樣的一個進行好我們看這個這裡面有提到這個經濟部推動新竹工業工研院先進半導體研發基地然後也提到這個國科會"},{"start":7953.562,"end":7981.096,"text":"推動新竹、洋礁大、半導體共創基地當然我們一定要繼續的來推動剛才我提到的就是稍微也提到的這個美國台積電即將在美國取得第二塊大面積的土地亞利桑那州擴展為一獨立的超大晶圓廠的基落這個部分就必須我們要"},{"start":7982.045,"end":8007.371,"text":"要非常非常的审慎怎么样去协调怎么样去做重大的影响评估这里面还特别提到要支持先进制程客户对智慧型手机AI和HPC相关运用的需求这个直接直接就会影响到我们"},{"start":8008.687,"end":8034.402,"text":"在台灣的這樣一個重要的一個這個復國神山所以這個部分也一定要請國發會要加油而且要勇於勇於跟這個有決策的譬如說行政院長甚至總統都應該要勇於把這樣的一個相關"},{"start":8035.768,"end":8056.057,"text":"要该停的该缓的都必须要勇敢的提出来那我请教一下在台湾台积电正在新竹和高雄科学研析筹备竖起的二奈米的精研厂这个知道进度吗"},{"start":8057.853,"end":8083.879,"text":"如果不知道的話再提供個素面的資料這裡先跟委員報告一下就是說台積電在今年的年底會在新竹以及高雄的廠區量產兩奈米的那一個晶片那這兩奈米比剛剛這個新聞報告還要再先進因為兩奈米在美國的話還沒有說大量在量產所以我們台灣相對來講還是先進的晶片還是在我們台灣在量產這樣子"},{"start":8084.648,"end":8113.222,"text":"所以现在这个在新竹跟高雄的进行的进度可以有比较具体的素面资料吗好可以这个部分再提供好这个一定要去怎么样去协助能够去加快好今天的报告里面这个我之前也一直在关心"},{"start":8114.637,"end":8132.95,"text":"你們特別提到支持國際學生及人才循環交流擴大招收國際學生並提升其留台意願這個部分你們的報告裡面特別提到列為一個成果"},{"start":8134.076,"end":8162.436,"text":"也就是我們這個上個會期完成的這個公佈施行的這個外國專業人才延攬及雇用法的修正主委可能不知道我之前跟前任的主委我一直持非常保留的態度在經濟委會審查甚至朝野協商的時候我都不是很支持因為"},{"start":8164.676,"end":8193.821,"text":"如果主委你一定要花时间去检视这个修正的条文原来的条文跟现在修正的条文的一个扩大过于扩大我认为是过于扩大我们就讲一个这个我们就讲永久积流好了这个永积瓜福二这个你的报告里面提到的这个"},{"start":8194.778,"end":8218.222,"text":"放寬複協式以上畢業僑外生申請永居得折抵一年至三年這裡面當然你要整體去檢視這些整個條文我們會增加很多的複協式連複協式都還要去擴大放寬"},{"start":8223.972,"end":8249.028,"text":"事实上我国发会在整个需求上你们认为所谓的专业人才的需求揽柴各方面那应该要跟教育部充分的来讨论我们怎么样去鼓励我们的高中职的毕业生去考去就读"},{"start":8250.441,"end":8266.962,"text":"我們認為台灣所需要的專業人才這應該是優先才對而不是放任他們去考什麼就考什麼然後這個就讀大專院校之後畢業以後又不是我們所需要的專業人才"},{"start":8268.362,"end":8297.528,"text":"然後又要從外國會變成這樣的一個很像要做很好的一個跨部會的一個規劃會產生這樣的一個問題所以這個部分也請這個主委還有尤其是我們國化會的公務人員更應該要往這方面去努力我們看這個113年7年就業者的教育程度"},{"start":8298.755,"end":8324.62,"text":"然后还有他的就业的比例大写最右边的大写我们看113年65.84固然比以往高了但是65.84还不算很高啊那其他的对不对三十几所以这个都必须去评估去省着让我们的年轻人"},{"start":8325.327,"end":8351.683,"text":"有更好的職業然後所得如果我現在沒有時間去談應該還要去看所得對不對所得到底是多少也不高都3萬多而已所以這部分我們國內人才不是沒有大專校院畢業生也很多所以這個部分是一併給這個主委來去做這個政策上的一個"},{"start":8353.197,"end":8363.653,"text":"一个参考谢谢好谢谢好我们休息休息三分钟谢谢"},{"start":8377.782,"end":8383.213,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8412.654,"end":8430.953,"text":"有時候小組應該有拚搏的,因為我們沒有參與,所以沒辦法立刻再給他拚搏。你不能說有,他就要拚出來。對啊,你說沒有就會被罵了。所以這個回答很好。"},{"start":8443.917,"end":8456.95,"text":"產業均衡的業沒有都寫在書上擺了我剛就跟智格講你們智格的東西都是非常有可能會被錄的"},{"start":8505.333,"end":8528.49,"text":"對對對對對對"},{"start":8565.146,"end":8566.007,"text":"趕快上洗手間吧"},{"start":8608.462,"end":8624.547,"text":"我們現在繼續開會首先邀請曾振賢委員請做詢談 謝謝謝主席我想請一下我們國發會主委葉俊賢 葉主委好 我們再請葉主委"},{"start":8634.203,"end":8655.632,"text":"主委好我想先請教一下因為地方創生計畫是國發會這邊在統籌辦理的我想請教一下110年到114年的計畫總金額大概是多少錢這個部分我方便請木牙給我嗎您剛就職所以有很多東西我們也希望你趕快能夠進到那個狀態當中"},{"start":8662.529,"end":8669.755,"text":"不要耽擱這時間啦我直接跟你講大概有60億啦有60億那我想先請教一下我們今年的執行金額是多少錢"},{"start":8673.392,"end":8695.247,"text":"是13億左右13億因為到去年底為止的時候我們目前執行是35億左右今年要執行13億所以基本上這60億是用不完的那我想請教一下過去這麼多年我們從現在就是國發會當中的一個地方創生的相關網站當中我們去查新竹市總共有幾件"},{"start":8697.392,"end":8723.146,"text":"新竹市我記得好像是清培站有一件然後好像那一個辦公室好像清培站有一件主委你都還沒有進入狀況我直接把問題丟給你因為你第一次被尋那我也不太為難你可是我希望說把我們關心的問題你能夠好好的去把它給釐清出來新竹大概總共只有三件108年到現在為止大概只有三件那"},{"start":8724.775,"end":8753.476,"text":"可是目前全國的案件非常非常的多新竹市非常非常的少可是你說是因為新竹市比較都會所以說針對青年返鄉然後要創造就業機會這東西沒有需求嗎其實不是新竹市有很多一個創生的團隊包括在東門市場當中包括在後站當中都有很多相關的創生團隊可是他們基本上都不在我們這樣子的一個支持的清單當中主委你知道什麼原因嗎"},{"start":8754.617,"end":8779.972,"text":"部分的原因是因為新竹相對於其他縣市是比較繁榮就業比較好啦不是這樣子啦主委我就知道你會這樣簡單的回答可是問題一定不是這麼簡單可是我這邊因為你第一次被選我不想太為難你我想你後續好好去了解一下為什麼會有這麼大的差距因為新竹也許農村不多可是舊城區很多它符合整個創生的一些需求"},{"start":8780.692,"end":8808.255,"text":"所以我們希望主委針對這個部分你回去好好了解之後再跟本席做一個很清楚的說明好不好就跟委員報告就是說有任何案子過來我們都會接受我們都會很鼓勵的那我現在接下來要問下一個問題因為您第一次備詢我就想把幾個重要的我們關心的問題直接跟您這邊做一個質詢桃酒盤大矽谷計畫還要不要往下做當然要啊"},{"start":8809.151,"end":8829.445,"text":"當然要是不是當然要往下做嘛我為什麼會這樣子問因為從2024年2月22號行政院通過這樣的一個逃軍玩大戲舞計畫之後也變成賴總統的一個政見可是我們的一個溝通平台上一次開會是什麼時候 主委上一次開會我記得"},{"start":8832.025,"end":8850.73,"text":"你是說實體嗎當然當然當然大概1月的時候吧對1月20號是開會嘛1月20號到現在已經9個月過去了喔9個月過去了之後的時候然後所有的平台都沒有開會然後你說地方政府擔不擔心地方政府非常非常的著急啊你知道嗎"},{"start":8852.11,"end":8875.694,"text":"現在桃竹竹苗地方首長本來就都有一個相關的一個溝通的一個平台的會議可是桃竹苗大細股計畫這個部分的時候中央跟地方的一個平台溝通的一個會議竟然有9個月都沒有開然後你知道今年3月份的時候新竹市政府發了一個函去問我們國發會針對於392公頃竹克S2期範圍當中的一個部分"},{"start":8881.135,"end":8887.021,"text":"要請行政院核定為國家重大建設結果你知道情況怎麼樣隔了三個月"},{"start":8889.967,"end":8911.529,"text":"國發會才回函新竹市政府說請新竹市政府向中央權責機關洽詢三個月之後得到這樣的一個答案所以我才問你說我們桃竹苗大戲舞跳到底有沒有要繼續往前走 目前看起來是沒有啊整個平台的一個會議九個月沒有開是地方政府發函到國發會來"},{"start":8914.459,"end":8923.385,"text":"問問題 三個月之後 尋答推到中央主管機關表示好像跟國發會都沒有關係我這邊要特別講到一個點 就是說"},{"start":8925.637,"end":8949.351,"text":"國發會這邊的時候 針對於桃竹竹苗首長他們提出了一個問題 九個月沒有開平台會議的時候其實你們有做新聞稿的一個回應新聞稿回應當中的時候提出五點 這五點都很虛我只針對你們提到了一個桃竹苗大戲舞計畫你們有五項重大成果這邊我針對這五項重大成果 我就很認真的去看"},{"start":8950.231,"end":8966.771,"text":"包括所謂的太空產業推動計畫生衣育成生態系生成式AI應用與發展國道一號楊梅志頭份段拓寬還有桃園智興竹備援管線這五大成果可是我發現這五大成果都不是在"},{"start":8969.074,"end":8986.13,"text":"24年2月22號之後的都是以前就有的勒你知道嗎都是從2018年開始就有的計畫然後你跟我們說這是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的五個重要的一個卓越成效我們就很難理解這到底是什麼情況"},{"start":8987.37,"end":9009.559,"text":"所以針對這個部分的時候我們希望就是國發會這邊真的要扮演起重要的一個角色不要只是地方政府來詢問你就把文轉出去國發會它不是一個收發文的單位它不是一個只是收公文轉陳情的一個單位我們希望國發會是能夠真正解決問題的一個單位好不好"},{"start":9010.379,"end":9026.557,"text":"就一個簡單回應一下這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說第一個我們從1月開過實體會議之後的話其實中間開過很多的工作會議因為實體會議我想我們應該在解決是一個比較大的一個議題而不是說很"},{"start":9027.398,"end":9042.294,"text":"很瑣碎的一些議題所以你講開很多會議是中央開很多會議還是跟地方這邊有做溝通開很多會不會 不會平不會開很多會嘛那我再想一個狀態中央跟地方的這樣一個協調平台你下次什麼時候要開你準備什麼時候開"},{"start":9044.116,"end":9066.634,"text":"委員是不是可以讓我們先去釐清一下就是說從成立之後到現在我們目前收案的一些情況那我大概有看了一下那個案件其實裡面很多都是非常不需要我們就幾個首長去看理解可是問題是四個首長桃竹竹苗的首長都反映出了一個狀態他們在溝通這相關的問題的時候沒有"},{"start":9067.54,"end":9082.462,"text":"一個統籌的一個窗口然後國發會這邊都叫他們自己去找原本的主管單位那這樣子的時候這個大計畫這個桃菊貓大細股計畫它有什麼價值所以我們希望主委你剛上來我們希望你好好扮演這個角色然後"},{"start":9084.11,"end":9104.144,"text":"如果說在三個月內定期會有一個針對桃竹苗大細股計畫的一個追蹤跟一個績效的一個追蹤是不是有辦法我們現在正在思考怎麼樣讓這個平台運作更有效率那目前的想法是說是不是要有一個先有一個工作平台然後幾個專案然後之後再來"},{"start":9104.904,"end":9119.057,"text":"工作平台應該有了吧有有有是啊只是說有這個工作平台是感覺都沒有在動所以我特別提到了新竹市政府發文到國發會三個月之後回來叫他們繼續找中央組委單位然後地方"},{"start":9119.938,"end":9144.297,"text":"桃竹竹苗的行政所長表示這個平台會議九個月都沒有開他們有很多東西要做可是都不得其門而入溝通不順暢原本的溝通不順暢如果說還是找原本的一個主管機關的時候那國發會的價值就沒有了所以我特別要講說國發會它不是一個收發文的單位轉成情的單位它是一個要能夠協助跨部會真正解決問題的單位好不好好"},{"start":9144.997,"end":9163.344,"text":"那就是剛剛跟委員解釋就是說那個工作平台我想是比較層級比較低的就是在處理一些比較瑣碎的事情那等到這些等到那個案子需要再更高層來決定然後我們會往上送那一個工作平台不是理解那個最"},{"start":9164.564,"end":9190.786,"text":"針對新竹市的部分尤其是我們三月份發出來的這樣子的一個竹克X二期的擴大範圍狀態的時候三個月之後叫他們去找主管機關我想針對這個部分到底卡在哪裡你到時候好好地了解一下到時候再給本席辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明好不好來看怎麼樣解決問題主席再給我30秒時間以下最後我這邊要問一個問題就是因為我們立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會有個調查報告出來"},{"start":9193.468,"end":9213.98,"text":"還有特別提到了一個旋轉門條款的問題主委你知道這個事情喔知道就是我們國發基金的殖密還有之前的副主委其實他們在很短的時間的時候就到了一個當時審議過的一個我們國發基金投資的一個單位去任職針對這個部分主委你有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":9214.62,"end":9240.232,"text":"就副主委去轉任這個部分的話因為那個副主委是2018年就離職了那他是2024年才離職所以三年五年的那個範圍他沒有這個問題那執密的問題呢執密的這個問題其實我們有去問過全序部跟公共工程委員會那他對於旋轉門必須要規範的人員的話大致上跟我們講是說第一個除非你是目的事業主管機關"},{"start":9241.172,"end":9265.348,"text":"或者是說你跟他有意見所以不是主管機關的時候你就覺得他沒有問題是不是目前法規上面來講的話我們沒有辦法去限制離職人員的一些工作的一個項目這樣的話會侵犯到離職人員的工作所以針對這部分有沒有需要再去調整的部分我想請教一下我們會思考就是說這個部分我們要怎麼樣我這邊直接具體問一下我們"},{"start":9266.429,"end":9284.764,"text":"國發基金的代理執密葉淑芳就是您本人嘛你現在在審很多不同的投資案對不對你如果說現在他挑了一個他們現在國發基金要投資的一個大公司然後讓他順利國發基金去投了投了之後他現在離職進到這個公司裡面去主委你覺得這樣適合嗎"},{"start":9287.008,"end":9316.136,"text":"如果按照你剛剛回答的方式我讓主委回答因為這是假設性的問題你可能也沒有那麼快離開所以說這是一個假設性的問題像這樣一個狀態的時候你覺得是適合嗎這樣觀感好嗎我們會評估一下那一個這個狀況OK 針對這個部分的時候我想主委你這邊盡速兩週給我一個很具體的回覆我們針對國發基金的一個相關的工作人員的旋轉門條款我們要怎麼樣去做一個調整修正好不好好"},{"start":9316.756,"end":9330.96,"text":"OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝 接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在場我們接下來請陳昌明委員請做巡檔主席 首先有請我們國防會業主委好 我們再請國防會業主委"},{"start":9351.939,"end":9370.754,"text":"岳志威你这份报告写得也很好非常清晰而且非常明了但是这里面你提到你的师大师重的目标创新经济均衡台湾精进治理及投资人才"},{"start":9372.352,"end":9389.359,"text":"剛剛我看到政權委員的執行關於桃子苗大矽谷計畫我們為了這個大矽谷計畫也聯合了桃園市新直縣新直市苗栗縣整個再綜合的檢討"},{"start":9390.68,"end":9418.103,"text":"那大家都感覺好像國會也不怎麼重視經濟部也不怎麼重視行政院現在越來越大牌已經反映了幾十次我們說裡面有很多問題要來解決了譬如在苗栗有一個頭文的科學研期有一個職能科學研期第二期有一個產業科技研期那經濟部我們大概都已經協調完成了"},{"start":9418.763,"end":9440.185,"text":"那竹蘭的科學運氣第二期是包括第一期裡面的一個延伸我一直拜託你們做協調你們好像沒搖沒緊口號喊得那麼大這是未來曹植苗的一個希望跟未來但是我們就有問題跟你請教你們都躲在後面好像沒有人敢去承擔敢去擔當一樣"},{"start":9443.028,"end":9463.448,"text":"職亂科學運區第二期的時候我們要請國科會來擔任目的事業的主管機關到現在都沒有一點進展尤其是你們劉指揮在確診的那天晚上發一個給我他說做下來以後沒有把我這個幫完成那葉指揮要不要替我們幫忙"},{"start":9465.55,"end":9486.779,"text":"在那個合法合規你問問黃次長很優秀他了解這個狀況我看你有拍到嗎沒有拍到嗎剛剛看你在問答的話18天好像還不好意思不好意思不會啦當那個行政院的小內閣是非常大你是行政院的小內閣非常大要發揮你的power好不好"},{"start":9488.76,"end":9512.239,"text":"我會 我會盡量來協調啦好不好 多久一直在等待啊我回到地方都被人家是不是要取消了中央不支持中央只支持南部不支持北部不支持苗栗縣啦好不好 我希望這一點既然計畫你們已經合訂了出來了全力的推動好不好好 這第一點第二點"},{"start":9513.26,"end":9531.558,"text":"你所有的工作内容里面协调推动AI新十大建设这里面分的看起来很好但是我有一点AI软体的产业跟东方你们划在世卫部这个一定要跟经济部的结合"},{"start":9532.259,"end":9554.074,"text":"因為這裡面有很多軟體要實際在運作實際跟工廠在討論你才有辦法我只要說你AI十大建設好像是在那個分站一樣這個部位多少錢這個都要跨部位合作不說它簡單一行就行再來裡面我有意見的時候"},{"start":9555.831,"end":9574.444,"text":"就是全球AI機器人供應鏈的私流你們排在國科會我就有時候覺得很懷疑是要給大學的還是怎麼來做這個跟產業鏈有關係啊跟哪一家工廠特稅有關係啊跟哪一種運行有關係啊"},{"start":9575.767,"end":9589.359,"text":"這邊都沒有只有高科會分給大學大學去研究他要對產業很了解才可以不是憑光想像的我希望你們能務實這一點的時候真的有幾個地方要討論一下"},{"start":9591.667,"end":9613.662,"text":"你點頭是怎樣 可以不可以你可以回答我知道那個委員的關心我也認同就是說其實產業的發展不光是在學校而且要產業之間要互相的配合所以我們其實也有某一些計畫其實是在鼓勵大學要有一個育成中心這個是關鍵的時候現在邊學習不是在台灣管理很厚的很內行的世界十國的立法這個競爭已經非常激烈了"},{"start":9622.088,"end":9643.047,"text":"再來啊 你重大的公共建設 完全永遠有談有很多預算都過了 你們還丟在那邊好像都不敢動 每次用財政措施法 文法還沒有確定怎麼樣那是今年的預算耶 已經放在裡面了 也不核定啊 這個政府也跟他拼了"},{"start":9644.38,"end":9663.063,"text":"那個顏色不要那麼重你會不會顏色很重我希望你不會但是每一個人都是講不會都是講為國家來做服務的但是做事情不要這樣我們已經明顯的看出來要把你們掌握太多了不勝美舉我們背在心裡"},{"start":9665.367,"end":9692.403,"text":"我從現在大發明完後就要真的做事情啊還有原來國外的人才這裡面很重要但是你要記得我們薪資的競爭都比我們鄰近日本、韓國還要低不是只有水利化提高薪資啦不然你覺得我們台灣我一直在強調台灣會變成AI的訓練所尤其這個執政黨到日本到美國、到歐洲"},{"start":9693.427,"end":9712.964,"text":"我給你一個消息日本要引進印度5萬個AI的人才那AI人才現在把它發起應用印度台當CEO的話這個公司都會倒你不要看這個資料他會結幫結派所以你這一方面台灣的人才訓練自己"},{"start":9714.89,"end":9742.711,"text":"水往低處流 人往高處爬大家都到薪資高的地方 又有利卡台灣又在地緣政治裡面戰爭變嚴大家想想 人家去做人的事人家不要指財禁用人家自己算錢 才把台灣撈出來這個真的未來會發生一個非常嚴重的問題啊您每次都說得很好聽我要如何 我要如何實在 我很擔心啊"},{"start":9743.752,"end":9763.674,"text":"真的 你多看那一些日本要用引進AI人才 要從印度引進五萬人你想想這世界是怎麼在變不是我們口講的那一些 真的我們要面臨很多問題那我們現在都自我陶醉 我們很強我們不怕人家的競爭"},{"start":9765.7,"end":9788.519,"text":"再來 今天很多人在問 我有一點很遺憾你國發會的職位不曉得我們校務總統說要除了台積電 要把ICT的生態產業鏈要外移到美國我們要到美國開類 科學運氣的方式你曉得ICT是什麼"},{"start":9790.529,"end":9814.151,"text":"就是自動性產品不是 值得敬遠ICT就是封裝測試高階的封裝測試那我再跟指揮討論一下高階的封裝測試你曉得嗎用人是最多的地方啊阿什麼美國生產一半 台灣生產一半我們的根被割掉我們都不曉得啊"},{"start":9815.117,"end":9836.736,"text":"我請教你,你相信美國嗎?他是好人嗎?他真的照顧台灣嗎?你看起來,他要了什麼你就乖乖給他你以為那些參議員來這邊訪問的都做什麼?都是叫我埋不去我們台灣政府啊,我也不曉得為什麼那麼相信他"},{"start":9838.479,"end":9853.542,"text":"我們羹都被挖光了你們都沒有反應說這個叫做擴展實力我告訴你有時候講起來看起來很有道理就叫做出賣台灣羹每一個在競爭我錢多我去找"},{"start":9854.69,"end":9871.164,"text":"我們台灣不一定會比人家贏世界的人才很多這第一點跟委員報告那個五十五十我們是不會接你做國務法會主委連政府都不跟你同情楊瓊英委員很有人心叫你三個月的報告做這樣的話"},{"start":9872.825,"end":9894.407,"text":"不然我們立委怎麼曉得兩天前的新聞出來我馬上要問對台灣的影響要了多少所以表示這個政府裡面的反應很慢這是大家關心的問題啊貼切實施會怎麼樣你們也不講明白說好啦台灣沒有關係台灣的實力很強啊台積電很強"},{"start":9895.848,"end":9925.354,"text":"台積電你們的報告說我們只營5年到10年我們還要這樣自我逃稅人才外流什麼機器都外流到國外大家都拚自己的管你台灣是誰我不知道你們做生意在競爭的世界是這樣在拚還有一點普通人要談台積電的二耐米機器已經外流到日本的TL他們也在試製的二耐米"},{"start":9926.294,"end":9944.985,"text":"我們政府輕描淡寫 這不是偷情這個是轉移 非常的奇怪二難民的機制等於國安的機制我們政府都不發聲還是說臺灣有事 日本就有事作為調案的條件"},{"start":9946.467,"end":9966.014,"text":"所以台積電2奈米那個時候台灣被拖起了 日本沒有事情我覺得這個政府委員怪到底是為誰服務的主委 人生一直想要好好跟你討論沒有 因為剛剛我因為我覺得這個問題你這個很重要的未來規劃台灣的願景你們都覺得沒有關係 這樣有過"},{"start":9975.849,"end":9998.617,"text":"臺灣啊 會那個什麼 青蛙族溫水會變你們這些官員啊從來沒有警惕的意思好像臺灣世界無敵 要自己額頭緊啊我跟你講你看 連日本都不能當間諜來這邊拖我們2奈米的美國沒有間諜嘛 不要想得太天真了啦 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10004.505,"end":10025.735,"text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢答謝謝主委 麻煩不好意思 謝謝主席麻煩有請國發會主委我們再請主委"},{"start":10032.142,"end":10049.994,"text":"委員長主委好看了主委的CV啊我覺得您跟我之前常常合作的那個陳公平老師背景很像都是Rogers的出來然後到中央然後到中研院經濟所研究的也是Game Theory"},{"start":10050.816,"end":10070.442,"text":"你的publication的列表我大概看了一下我相信game theory應該你的研究有所專精謝謝委員那到公務部門來是不是能夠把你所學的專長落實到有利於國家發展跟國際民生是我們在立法院裡面要監督的重點因為我"},{"start":10073.086,"end":10095.396,"text":"我問這項來的風格是有一說一非常直接那也請葉老師不要介意也請黃老師不要介意OK好我們接下來喔民進黨政府國發基金投資的績效跑劑量的人要分析其實我都覺得國發會應該把這些數據因為這是台灣納稅人的錢把這些數據全部release出來"},{"start":10102.26,"end":10116.467,"text":"讓跑劑量的人好好去分析嘛然後看我們的政府過去告訴台灣社會給國會的數字是不是在做大內宣是不是文過是非"},{"start":10117.489,"end":10145.954,"text":"因為學術人要研究我有data的話啦可以做很多分析啊那我現在沒有data嘛我只能按照你們公布的數字來看嘛我們先看民進黨主政時期啊不要一年每一年報告都跟說我們今年國發基金會賺多少錢結果是從什麼從李登輝總統時代人家就投資了台積電賺錢啊拿來什麼拿來填補蔡英文任內啊投資的虧損"},{"start":10147.386,"end":10173.435,"text":"民進黨政府國發基金投資的績效有沒有有賺錢 有賺錢啊到2024年年底我看盡力賺錢的9家但問題是慘賠的28家我講的是蔡英文任內投資的不要再去講把馬英九的政績當自己的政績把陳水扁的政績當自己的政績甚至連李登輝都拿來當自己的政績這不好看 很難看面對這樣子的問題 國會很嚴肅"},{"start":10176.403,"end":10205.448,"text":"做了國發基金調查委員會的調查報告裡面如列出了2016年以後的投資案存在先設再劃把的問題罔顧外省專家提出來的反對意見質疑投資投資決策草率眾多委員不是請假就是代理還有國發基金的人違反公務員服務法旋轉門條款自己"},{"start":10208.275,"end":10234.946,"text":"審議說要投資這家公司等到自己下台了以後跑去這家公司當董事這能看喔這能看喔那沒關係啊國發基金調查委員會的調查報告招委是我到時候院會要處理的時候我們好好一項一項談這也不是你的鍋也不是你接主委以後發生的事情那個是前人留下來給你的但是我重視的是你處理的態度"},{"start":10235.711,"end":10251.012,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案我們要修改產業創新條例的修法全面改革國發基金因為我們政壇有個前輩叫潘孟安當初他在當立委的時候他認為國發基金亂七八糟"},{"start":10253.103,"end":10265.672,"text":"用鬆散的行政規則根本管不了讓國發基金成為紓困基金所以潘孟安當立委的時候他的主張是國發基金他要設一個特別條例來加以規範"},{"start":10266.906,"end":10295.28,"text":"我們折衷沒有要國發基金設特別條例我直接就改產業創新條例的修法改革國發基金強化外部監督提高專案核准審議的密度改革私人的退場機制落實旋轉門條款建立公開透明的機制這些原則主委讚不讚成基本上都我同意基本上都同意 非常好我要拜託召委你有時間幫我擺個案"},{"start":10297.627,"end":10302.217,"text":"這個牽涉到我們全體納稅人的權益 主委的態度又這麼正面非常的好啊"},{"start":10304.44,"end":10331.949,"text":"既然你都同意我就後面有很多細節我也不要占人家的時間我一個一個就都先跳過去委員那個旋轉門這個部分的話可能就是說可能要考慮一下因為會涉及到那個是是是那個工作權這個部分沒有關係主委你也知道我們中研院出來的都就事論事我們到時候條文的時候一樣機制一樣機制我們慢慢再來討論但我現在要跟你講的是什麼"},{"start":10333.462,"end":10360.336,"text":"我從2018年開始監督國發基金到這一次回來立法院不管是陳美玲還是前面的主委都跟我說違反法令公司治理不佳的就應該納入事故的標的主委贊不贊成 贊成那我們接下來看 省紀部卻說我們的國發基金沒有落實執行退場機制這省紀部的報告主委看過沒有省紀部的這個到"},{"start":10362.252,"end":10390.321,"text":"我是沒有看過那主委你花一點時間看你閱讀的速度一定很快啦好我要特別講的是什麼這個聯合再生啊根本胡搞瞎搞因為主委是搞經濟出來的嘛賽局理論又有碰激量這個騙不了要要民進黨政府要做大內宣騙台灣人民啊可能挾著媒體的優勢啊可以騙一死啊"},{"start":10391.277,"end":10415.292,"text":"但是內行的看門道不是看熱鬧數字拿出來看就知道了來我直接跟你講2017年國發基金管理會的時候評估說我們一定要投聯合再生啊太陽能國家隊啊我們每一年的營收會有多少錢啊全部都把它列出來結果列出來了以後2018年預定營收510億結果只有131億"},{"start":10419.818,"end":10446.045,"text":"2022年達到980億我的老天啊 結果只有188億這個評估是徹底失靈了我不用講什麼理由我光攤出數字 納稅人看到背景都亮了我們的國發基金投資評估審議委員會啊可以預測到 施准到這種程度啊我是不曉得他們用什麼model預測啦"},{"start":10447.54,"end":10467.191,"text":"我不曉得他們用什麼model預測 但預測出來的結果失準到這種程度真的是讓人觸目驚心但更嚴重的是什麼 更嚴重的是當初要投的時候 做虛偽不實的投資評估報告投了以後呢 2019年開始累計虧損"},{"start":10471.994,"end":10499.565,"text":"又虧了上百億投以前虧上百億連民進黨的立委都在立法院問說我們國發基金是變成紓困基金然後那時候國發基金說不會太陽能國家隊太陽能國家隊推上去獲利可期後事看好結果呢投了又虧了什麼 又虧了上百億直接反映在哪裡 我再帶主委看這個是聯合再生的月K線"},{"start":10501.465,"end":10520.48,"text":"主委有沒有看到啊 我們要投資的時候2018 2019的時候 股價跌到谷底你有沒有看到對嘛 就跌到谷底嘛哇 國發基金進場要投資啊股價一路攀升啊 一路往上主委有沒有看到"},{"start":10521.89,"end":10550.529,"text":"現在不僅是什麼啊政府被當盤子啊還拖著一堆股市的小白啊在國發基金的背書下面一起當盤子現在每股跌到6塊你看最右邊的就好了 這個是我剛來執行以前我上去網站下面 download現在跌到股價有剩6塊嗎在附近虧到脫褲子啊"},{"start":10551.89,"end":10572.82,"text":"虧得脫褲子我就奇怪了因為這個弊案我一開始追我一直追到現在 國發會的主委跟我說要啟動退場機制結果啟動退場機制是什麼是在用喊的喔開始說要啟動退場機制結果現在試了幾股主委你知道嗎 試了22萬股總共有9900多萬股 試了22萬股"},{"start":10579.435,"end":10606.851,"text":"難怪審計部的報告說根本沒有落實退場機制啊繼續虧啊 繼續了啊那我們管國發基金的人是什麼心態那納稅的錢又不是我的錢如果是在外面的民間企業基金管理人管理股票管理成這個樣子啊早就不曉得被炒魷魚炒十次了結果我們的國發基金不要沒關係為什麼不要沒關係代理人效應嘛"},{"start":10608.113,"end":10635.76,"text":"虧的又不是我的錢虧的是中華民國國民的錢有什麼關係我們大家高官權貴有的吃有的喝有的撈有的現場卸任還要聯合再生幫他幾千萬在屏東那邊養退休的官員大家都有的撈嘛幹嘛要管這種亂象 主委有沒有決心改革"},{"start":10636.584,"end":10661.458,"text":"我們那個事故退場這個部分其實我們要再持續再修正那我們用新的辦法來沒有關係啊 主委你新上任主委我對新上任的主委一向都很溫暖我一定給你時間跟空間但時間到的時候我們要檢驗成效希望你跟其他前面幾個主委不一樣真的有破例改革 可以嗎可以好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10668.001,"end":10670.383,"text":"接下來我們請賴樂仁委員請做詢答好謝謝 謝謝昭緯然後請葉主委我們再請葉主委"},{"start":10686.843,"end":10704.773,"text":"主委 委員長 主委今年的台灣的經濟狀況還不錯啦特別是但上半年的部分表現相當的強勁那現在大家預估在今年的經濟成長率大概是3到5之間那主委你們的評估呢"},{"start":10705.353,"end":10730.715,"text":"我覺得要過五也蠻有機會的因為像中金院的話都預估到5.45那一般來講我對中金院的預估的了解通常會比較保守一些對 所以中金院估到5.45所以今年的經濟成長率其實是相當強勁應該是不錯那五的話其實是非常亮麗的表現不管是在亞洲四小龍或在全世界來看這都是一個非常亮眼的表現"},{"start":10731.736,"end":10755.544,"text":"所以特別在上半年下半年因為現在還在涉及到跟台美之間的談判但是這個如果是五的話過五的話這個有考慮到了接下來十月份有可能發一萬元這樣的一個因素進去了嗎中晉園他們是有把這個已經把巴納進去了然後是會射算在那一個消費這一塊對所以他也會帶動整個消費跟刺激所以經濟成長率還是會成長"},{"start":10757.305,"end":10773.491,"text":"說明期待啦齁那今年的五的話這樣看起來應該是樂觀去看待會過五啦齁那這是非常亮眼的成績啦齁那接下來明年度呢明年步估現在看起來主委的看法呢有沒有機會但可能不會像今年這麼的漂亮啦齁對"},{"start":10775.31,"end":10794.104,"text":"明年的話主技出預估是2.81那其他國外的機構大概預估大概在2.6左右那我個人的看法是說明年的話因為今年的基期比較高所以相對的就是在出口這一塊的話可能那個數字不會像今年這麼好看那投資的話那個動能都還在"},{"start":10794.764,"end":10820.187,"text":"那也是因为今年的基期比较高所以那个数字上面来讲的话可能会往下掉一些明年的那一个经济成长动能应该会来自消费这一块所以消费我们还蛮乐观就是说消费明年的话假如说搭配比如说像高雄这种演唱会经济学的话经济的话我想应该明年的消费应该会不错然后整个股市的话也希望能够持续"},{"start":10820.968,"end":10836.001,"text":"今年的一個融解那會帶動所謂的所謂的財富效果對 今年的股市或是出口或者是內需的整個狀況都相當良好了但明明我們希望持續那主委我們還是要設定一個好一點的目標嘛希望還是以保三維過三維一個目標嘛"},{"start":10837.361,"end":10855.647,"text":"朝這個方向就是總是設定一個目標我們朝一個方向去做努力啦好也期盼明年有很好的成績啦我想執政其實就是希望給人民更多的這個不管是他的經濟上面或者收益上更好的一個狀況希望整個團隊是持續的努力來往這個方向推進"},{"start":10856.887,"end":10882.397,"text":"再來現在賴總統其實也提到了包括國發這邊AI的新十大建設我認為這個也很重要包括這段時間以來從我們過去的半導體到現在的AI的產業我們都持續大力推那我也認為現在這個時間點來推從AI去推一個新十大建設來整個帶動未來的台灣的整個長遠發展我認為很重要我們希望打造未來更多的護國群山"},{"start":10883.177,"end":10906.259,"text":"那我看到裡面有非常多的一些重要政策我也都很認同那高雄的部分其實在過去從九年前我不斷的倡議5G IoT的創新園區到後來蔡總統賴總統支持的雅灣這個雅灣的園區雅灣智慧科技創新園區171的投入那未來的部分這十大建設裡面"},{"start":10907.64,"end":10925.725,"text":"会持续的在高雄持续加码做更多的投资跟支持吗会会会在这一个部分来讲的话我们也有跟那个高雄市政府就高雄市政府其实有来提案就是说是不是能够把那个亚湾大算力放到那个新AI四大建设里面那这个部分我们所以亚湾的"},{"start":10926.885,"end":10946.713,"text":"亞灣的計畫裡面有被放進來新十大建設裡因為重鎮過去以來這些的機會多不住在北部但是從這幾年你看不管是惠達AMD或等等其實包括大亞灣包括我們剛剛講的亞灣智慧科技創新園就投了170億其實這個是非常具有潛力的一個地點所以我也希望國發會整合包括國科會包括經濟部包括各部會的力量"},{"start":10951.014,"end":10972.334,"text":"持續的能夠對高雄的亞灣做更多的支持啦我認為這個對於均衡南北會很重要啦而且高雄的港景高雄的這個人才的培育高雄的這些基礎建設等等我認為都是一個很大的一個厚實的一個基礎啦那主委要不要講一下未來會有哪些的計畫有可能會座落在高雄的"},{"start":10973.035,"end":10986.684,"text":"未來的一些計畫部分的話就我看一下我這邊跟高一雄有什麼會有哪些計畫譬如說像那個剛剛有提到那個雅灣智慧科學創意園區那另外一個我們會有一些"},{"start":10991.22,"end":11003.594,"text":"沒關係 主委回去盤點一下一個禮拜的時間給我啦好不好給我一下更具體的一些要投入的部分我也希望更清楚的看到那也彙整一下各部會的意見包括經濟部 國科會的意見讓我們看到這樣的"},{"start":11006.156,"end":11028.462,"text":"這個投資不是只有集中在北部而已而是中南部都會被重視到跟支持好不好那裡面其中有兩項是跟國國發會職業相關的包括人才的應用跟前億的創投基金資金的部分包括區域的AI的區域均衡發展這一塊我都希望國發會自己主導的要更加重視特別是"},{"start":11029.262,"end":11058.138,"text":"人才的部分這塊人才培育確實相當重要的工作我也希望能夠更具體的一些落實的做法進來那包括創投的基金過去來創投基金基本上我也執行過歷任的很多的國發會主委大概都還是北部多南部少我希望這一塊未來能夠持續的加重南部的力道給予他們更多的輔導跟支持跟協助讓他們有更多爭取到更多這些創投的基金來整個讓南部整個市場更加活絡"},{"start":11059.239,"end":11085.979,"text":"請主委要很有意識的往南部去思考因為南部的這個聚落需要政府更大力的支持才有辦法去推動起來好 謝謝那再來我請教一下其實高雄有第一個已經成立了建立了主權AI的城市包括它有智慧高雄的AI燈塔計畫這個部分會納入到整個新十大建設裡面嗎AI的新十大建設嗎"},{"start":11088.656,"end":11116.534,"text":"這個好像在上個禮拜亞灣指導委員會有討論這件事情有要納進去嗎我們會持續的去我希望主委支持啦好不好就是說智慧高雄的這個AI燈塔計畫納入到了AI的新十大建設裡面這也是一個整個整合了地方的政府的意見整體出來的好不好我希望主委大力來協助推動就是很多的建設絕對是建基在跟中央地方的合作的基礎之上這個才有辦法才落實啦"},{"start":11117.315,"end":11139.767,"text":"那包括其實高雄的港口包括高雄的電力石化鋼鐵造船等等其都是強項我也希望未來這些都能夠在整體上面得到更多的一些思考就是AI絕對不是它必須要建基在我們的很多基礎強項的一些產業上面推動它會有更達到更好的一些成效那剛剛提到不管是我們的鋼鐵石化"},{"start":11140.888,"end":11154.081,"text":"電力造船其實都是高雄的強項我們希望他透過更多的AI智慧的這一塊的投入之後來達到更好的一個效果好不好 希望這一塊整體都納入那當然我們期待的是未來亞灣剛講到的大亞灣這樣的計畫能夠整個納入到整體的推動這個AI十大產業裡面其實把亞灣整體思考進來"},{"start":11163.229,"end":11179.277,"text":"這一段這幾天的高雄市的粉紅色的這個Black Pink其實讓大家感受到確實高雄的企圖心跟魄力是相當強的那我們也希望這些能夠未來透過更多的政府的支持讓整個一個港灣城市大亞灣的建設能夠得到"},{"start":11180.878,"end":11193.848,"text":"台灣全世界的高度關注好不好 這請主委持續重視最後再提一個也是跟剛剛有關的 創業天使投資方案我還是要強調 我每次都問每一個主委這個一樣 台北拿到了176家 總共"},{"start":11196.31,"end":11220.175,"text":"金額25而高雄只有14家啦你看新竹都還有13台中13然後台南13其實這個台北一個就獨拿了176所以我還是要提醒北部真的佔有相當強大的一個優勢包括連新北市都拿到了35我希望足為要很有意識的去支持中南部的這個創業的天使的投資方案好不好"},{"start":11220.435,"end":11241.123,"text":"我每次都會問也每次都會講我希望要具體的成果我希望很快至少看到至少要佔比比如說五分之一個比例落實在南部的地方好不好我希望有一些指數去看到國發會努力的成果要不然佔的比例其實相當低啦在這邊也請委員幫忙就是說我們有一個計畫叫做創業綻放啦"},{"start":11242.443,"end":11262.592,"text":"那各六都的那一個報名的比例也是呈現雙北比較高 中央比較低那這個請委員多多幫忙這個已經長久存在一些狀況所以我說的是需要國防會更多的去協助他們可能不一定知道怎麼提案也不一定知道怎麼去怎麼樣得到協助所以要更多的輔導團去"},{"start":11264.232,"end":11284.022,"text":"到中部到南部去協助他們更多的提案他們如果他們知道有這些資源也好的運用的時候他們其實多數人是願意運用的那其實需要政府花更多力氣去協助他們不管是寫計畫或者輔導他們或者是去提出更好的一些方案出來我覺得政府的力道要再加大一點點好嗎好請主委重視這個問題好謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢談"},{"start":11302.016,"end":11303.117,"text":"謝謝主席 請葉主委我們再請葉主委主委"},{"start":11312.659,"end":11338.019,"text":"日本是我们台湾的第三大的贸易伙伴在这个月初的时候台北市的日本商会他发布了2025年对台湾政府政策的建言的白皮书你有没有看过有有当然有看过那本席也针对这个白皮书特别去翻阅了我们也发现他特别有提到就像我们台湾在积极推动这个AI产业跟半导体产业"},{"start":11341.174,"end":11358.263,"text":"這兩樣產業這兩樣產業是非常耗電高耗電的那要穩定供電那目前我們的核電廠全部就已經停止運轉了當然我們台灣還是有做一些再生能源的建置但是穩定供電是非常的重要那日本"},{"start":11358.923,"end":11376.956,"text":"商會這邊特別就有提到所以我們可以看得出日本商會他是非常擔心我們沒有核能作為基載能源未來是否能夠讓他們能夠在這個合作上面會發生有任何的變化所以在能源方面"},{"start":11378.393,"end":11402.395,"text":"我们国发会也是可以是主导这个横向各部会协调能源政策跟相关计划的一个主责单位你对这方面对于新的能源政策你们有没有能源的技术方面你们有没有展开了这个研究这个研究我们会持续关注关注有没有展开研究"},{"start":11403.714,"end":11416.96,"text":"目前我們還沒有為什麼沒有因為第一個就是說我們國內的那個核能的政策的話可能還是要有幾個步驟第一個就是說要有兩個程序我知道總統在我們核能這個公投之後的話總統有說過三樣這個原則下"},{"start":11423.203,"end":11439.251,"text":"沒有錯在三樣原則下你還是要做一些未以籌謀穩定供電在我們再生能源不夠穩定的當下你為什麼沒有說先來做一些準備呢謝謝委員的提議所以你要不要去研究謝謝委員新的能源技術要去研究嘛好"},{"start":11440.251,"end":11456.717,"text":"那現在再來要跟你提到的就是我們一些人口老化高齡化少子化的情形那在整個勞動力的市場上來講的話我們是對缺工是非常的嚴重在這白皮書裡面也有提到這缺工的問題"},{"start":11457.857,"end":11476.477,"text":"缺工的产业包括就是服务业跟制造业这两方面那我们看到我们政府对于这个自动化的提升这个部分的话只有协助到这个低碳转型跟数位的转型那请问一下未来对这两个产业的话我们能不能也来做自动化的相关的补助"},{"start":11477.557,"end":11483.384,"text":"會會會因為就好像我剛剛跟大家分享就是說經濟部的那個所以你會協調經濟部對這兩個產業進行自動化提升的工作效率的補助有這個預算"},{"start":11493.195,"end":11519.958,"text":"這樣子的話才能讓我們缺工的問題能夠獲得解決那再來要跟你提到就是日本也是我們半導體產業設備重要的供應國家那我們看到這個在日本企業的東京威力科創他們的員工跟我們台積電的員工合作偷取竊取了2奈米的先進製程這件事情主委也是知道嘛"},{"start":11521.559,"end":11538.007,"text":"在這種事情發生的時候主委對半導體先進製程這個核心的技術我們要保障這個國際的競爭力那這個技術是很重要的要好好去保護它的所以在這方面的話我們國家有國安法還有這個產業的"},{"start":11540.207,"end":11559.552,"text":"這個營業的這個秘密法對事後會有一個處分但是我們有未來可以怎麼去對於未來如果去防範對於這個半導體這個產業他們的如果在內部的管理上人員管理上或者治安的防護機制上你們也能夠做哪些的防護跟保護管理"},{"start":11561.394,"end":11589.047,"text":"因為這個部分來講我們有一支計劃有次在跟那個疏防部在做合作那會就整個那個治安的疏防部要怎麼做他做什麼防護他有在持續的研究就是說在那個是不是有一些APP啊或者是我們希望事前的防護比事後的處分來的重要而且高科技了所以這方面的話主委你能提到具體的"},{"start":11590.578,"end":11602.937,"text":"你應該很了解 具體的如何去防護呢第一個當然就台積電這個半導體這件事情的話它會裡面 對 它可能你說你看過白皮書了 白皮書有提到對"},{"start":11606.914,"end":11636.147,"text":"所以主委他们要求的就是我们对业者在内部资讯的安全管理跟机密的分级授权跟人员的审查一定要深化国际的合作的同时也能够守护到产业的竞争力这就是你当前要注意要去做的所以不要丢给速发部我对速发部也没有信心我不晓得他在做什么连一个诈骗他都没办法处理了"},{"start":11637.087,"end":11663.581,"text":"所以主委您是橫跨各部會的協調溝通相關產業你要積極的努力朝這方面來做好不好謝謝委員那接下來想請問主委的就是說我們國發基金對於投資方面的話我們有外部的審查委員制的方式嗎對不對有有沒有有那為什麼像這個爐心公司它這個指標"},{"start":11668.035,"end":11696.153,"text":"我們外部審查的時候有提醒你他會虧損但是你們還堅持要投資是什麼原因跟委員報告就是說我們的審查機制會送外省然後外省的意見回來之後的話我們會中整之後給那一個所以你中整了還是要投資因為我們不會只給一個委員看通常會有三個委員所以就好像你拿到"},{"start":11697.771,"end":11710.675,"text":"審查報告說話有一個會很好可能啦另外一個會很差他提醒你的是什麼毛利率過低而且整體的規劃設計技術各方面他沒有做出一個策略的規劃性這個一點這麼多你們內部"},{"start":11714.016,"end":11730.569,"text":"你們內部可以去盤點的話你就不用請外部那外部給你建議你又不用那這樣子的話你這個沒有做一個具體的去盤整的話那整個是虛有其表而且對整個基金的投資還執意的造成了一個損失你們"},{"start":11732.097,"end":11746.207,"text":"國發會 要不要負起責任 跟委員報告就是說我們內部的委員不去做外部的審查 所以你把他推給委員嗎那些委員是誰聘的不夠專業嗎 我們有一個那個委員的那一個 那個治療庫"},{"start":11747.248,"end":11768.128,"text":"我們是隨機拿的所以你們委員不夠專業也請外面的省和投省單位來做一個評估評估告訴你就是毛利率很低他們沒有前瞻性未來性的一些戰略策略在裡面你們還要投資那表示你們整體作業投資把人民的納稅錢就當一回事了嘛"},{"start":11768.644,"end":11780.954,"text":"跟委員報告就是說裡面會有一個報告是不好的但其他的可能是很好的話就需要那個管理委員會事實已經呈現他就是失敗的好 我再提一個聯合再生的公司的投資案"},{"start":11783.407,"end":11810.603,"text":"他們有17位委員你說推給委員我就告訴你這個聯合再生公司你就是17位委員要來進行投票但是有6位委員請假一位用代理的可以用代理來投票嗎這不是要專業嗎他是代理的話他整個了解整個事業體嗎所以他投出來的票8票同意那是不是不同意的人就要請假不要來"},{"start":11811.881,"end":11836.317,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告就是說我們已經就這個部分就是說代理的問題的話我們有提出一系列的改進方案所以我本身在這邊建議以後不要用代理的而且你17位就要17位通通來投票請假你可以調整一下時間你六位不來那六位是不同意你就要不要來啊我可以合理懷疑嗎因為基本上我們管理委員會的委員很多都是部長"},{"start":11837.233,"end":11858.672,"text":"那有的時候就是說他們時間上面來講的話沒有辦法配合部長要更關心這件事情那你說部長不關心那你就不要把投資人的錢亂丟我們在新的版本裡面我們會對這個一定要嚴格好不好會有比較嚴格的一個要求在這個投審的地方國發基金要審慎投資好 謝謝好 謝謝薇好 謝謝"},{"start":11863.997,"end":11879.686,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請這個張家俊委員請做詢答那麼我們今天中午不休息延長開會時間一直到我們議程處理完畢謝謝來請發言主席我想請葉主委我們再請葉主委謝謝主席主委你好怎麼樣今天這個早上過得怎麼樣正看教育"},{"start":11893.33,"end":11911.965,"text":"應該是不要緊張啦我想您回覆都非常的謹慎喔那我們經濟委員會的委員們也都是關心台灣未來經貿走向然後希望能夠最大化我們台灣人民的福祉那有什麼建議的話也希望主委可以帶回去好好思考那本期今天"},{"start":11912.305,"end":11927.912,"text":"今天關注的一個重要議題就是蕭美琴副總統在日前接受加拿大廣播電台CBC的專訪中所發表的言論副總統說要不只台積電投資美國連整個"},{"start":11930.234,"end":11940.591,"text":"這個半導體的生態系都要大舉赴美投資那這會嚴重影響我們台灣的市場跟投資人的信心那主委你認為副總統為什麼會這麼說呢"},{"start":11944.025,"end":11970.404,"text":"因為第一個就是說台積電假如是單一個廠去美國投資的話其實就整個商業經營的角度來看的話它其實發揮的重效沒有那麼大就是說它因為台積電成功的原因我私藏跟我朋友以及會內的同仁分享它就是台積電的那一個logo叫TSMC加1T就是客戶的信任然後S"},{"start":11971.525,"end":11987.427,"text":"就是两个系统一个是我们台湾的教育系统以及我们台湾的供应链的生态系另外一个AM的话就是就是那个张忠谋先生另外C就是Culture就是台湾的一个工作文化那再加E的话就是政府的政策所以"},{"start":11988.268,"end":12017.063,"text":"光是整只是一個那個去那邊投資的話我覺得就是說對於整個台積電來講的話不見得就是說怎麼講他整個的那個是除了你這樣講整個會移到那邊去比較不容易複製啦是跟蕭美琴副總統一致嗎你覺得如果台積電要過去應該整個生態系都過去嗎應該這樣子講跟跟跟委員報告就是說那個不是整個生態系是是copy"},{"start":12017.583,"end":12040.941,"text":"是一個複製那原來的還是在這所以你們之前知情嗎他這個言論發表之前你們知情嗎有跟行政單位這個溝通嗎怎麼這麼一講好像台積電是國營企業一樣呢因為之前的話就副院長所主持那個台美談判小組我們其實參與沒有參與所以你是不知情的吧"},{"start":12043.282,"end":12047.946,"text":"對 這個部分裡面的那個談判想判裡面的內容我們比較沒有接觸所以你是不知情的那你覺得這對嗎你覺得說就是身為一個副總統然後告訴大家說台積電整個生態系都要赴美投資了本席希望護國神山的台積電跟半導體產業不能夠變成是執政黨的便利貼"},{"start":12068.72,"end":12083.785,"text":"想貼哪裡就貼哪裡那之前台積電說要對美投資1000億美元的時候行政院各個機關包括賴總統都對外表明說台積電是私人企業要尊重他們的營運方向"},{"start":12084.545,"end":12103.332,"text":"然後投資的決策那為何到了今天卻是用副總統的這個高度好像說這個台積電包括半導體產業公司的發言人就是我們的副總統向國際說明這一些投資計畫 主委你覺得這是不是非常矛盾的一件事情呢"},{"start":12105.478,"end":12127.419,"text":"是不是可能剛好這個裡面的內容我比較不相信你不覺得自相矛盾嗎賴總統說台積電是私人企業然後這個蕭副總統說台積電他們整個生態系都要去了好像他是可以指揮他們的你不覺得這當中有自相矛盾的空間嗎"},{"start":12129.818,"end":12145.018,"text":"對 我們密切了解你很老實 你很棒你就說對了 你說沒錯你也覺得這是一個自相矛盾的事情蕭副總統也提到說台灣承諾要支持川普推動的再工業化"},{"start":12145.979,"end":12148.381,"text":"這換句話說就是告訴國際說我們整個技術都要轉移給美國了而且不只是台積電還有我們花了40年傾盡國家力量打造的半導體產業生態系全部都要拱手讓人"},{"start":12162.395,"end":12166.178,"text":"主委這個是作為台灣政府應該要向國際傳達的正確概念嗎以後國際社會關注台灣半導體產業都會自動把副總統的這句話畫重點耶這對於我們國家發展是一件好事嗎"},{"start":12180.449,"end":12200.535,"text":"跟委员报告就是说企业他自己决定在国外投资的话其实他有很多考量比如说去美国日本或者德国的话其实很大一部分是因为他的主要客户在那一边能够能够贴近市场去在地服务那我就技术转移这个部分的话委员可能"},{"start":12201.335,"end":12227.415,"text":"並不需要那麼擔心因為台積電畢竟還是台灣的上市公司那它的整個的那一個主委我現在是在提醒你身為國發會主委我們國家的發展跟你息息相關你也是我們國家發展的總舵手這一個現在是在提醒你說你必須密切注意整個掏空台灣之後我們國家還有什麼發展那你當這個主委還有什麼事可以做是不是"},{"start":12229.056,"end":12231.098,"text":"另外要講的就是說我也很肯定國發會在國家整體規劃上的努力尤其有關於前瞻計畫跟長照衛福據點上的準備雲林縣目前佈建了很多實質的協助跟支持"},{"start":12250.154,"end":12258.644,"text":"那今天我要談一個更具體的案子就是我們台大雲林分院想要在雲林蓋一個長照教學大樓的這個計畫那這個計畫不只是雲林的它是一個國家級的長照示範基地主委這個計畫的經費"},{"start":12268.696,"end":12285.343,"text":"就是建物的經費24億但是土地的部分呢土地這個部分雲林縣政府已經決定要支持台大提供一塊近10億的土地所以他總經費應該是34億那這個建物的經費24億台大醫院已經自籌了8億那對民間籌募的8億也已經到位換句話說民間跟學界已經完成了三分之二"},{"start":12297.808,"end":12321.202,"text":"的責任或者是四分之三的責任這展現了多方對此案的共同期待那現在只差中央政府這最後的8億就能夠讓這個國家級的長照教學大樓動工那本案的重要性 本席在這裡跟你提醒就是說這不是一般的公共工程它有多重的意義啊"},{"start":12322.102,"end":12343.79,"text":"第一個就是解決區域的這個長照需求那雲林縣的老人人口可以說是比例高居前段半那住宿室的長照病床缺口極大那這200床是優質而且公益性極高的公共化長照資源能夠有效紓解在地家庭的壓力那第二呢"},{"start":12344.29,"end":12348.752,"text":"它是人才培訓的基地不只是長照中心它更是一個教學大樓培育專業的人才跟高齡醫學研究中心可以連結那這是為了全國長照服務品質的提升跟人力永續打基礎還有第三點"},{"start":12365.06,"end":12385.869,"text":"第三點就是說它是智慧照護的示範我知道你們現在國發會一直在推AI智慧等等那這個新大樓更是用智慧照護的模式的一個示範場域那符合國發會推動這個AI產業數位轉型的一個政策方向那也希望說這個已經進入整個審查的階段諸位我想要誠摯的呼籲你關心這個案子"},{"start":12391.971,"end":12420.897,"text":"然後盡快的發揮這個跨部會的協調讓整個整合包括教育部啊衛福部做密切的溝通讓這個行政流程可以無礙然後盡速的落地這主委可不可以答應我們呢可以因為因為這個案子目前在我們這邊審我們原則上會還蠻樂觀的那有一些就是可能要請送審單位要注意一下就是說他對於那個工程的單價這部分裡面的內容可能要再做一些修正這樣子"},{"start":12421.437,"end":12445.688,"text":"是 我想包括台大云林分院的马惠民院长他也一定会全力以赴来配合国发会的这个要求来修正那我们也希望这一个大楼的案子尽快核定让我们云林县的长者能够受更好的服务然后培育更多的人才也做全国长照的示范点好谢谢 谢谢主委谢谢委员好 谢谢"},{"start":12449.264,"end":12465.996,"text":"接下來我們請蔡議員請做詢答謝謝主席 我們是有請國發會主委我們再請葉主委委員長 主委早"},{"start":12476.698,"end":12505.418,"text":"主委那今天是你第一次到我們委員會來接受備詢那我想國安會深具的就是國家整個發展的一些重責大任所以國安會對於所有產業或者是所有關於到人民的一些基本福利的一些照顧這個是國安會責無旁貸的責任那事實上我想要跟主委聊的就是說我們都知道"},{"start":12506.118,"end":12521.893,"text":"那台湾现在整个产业呈现的是非常的两极也就是说如果是在AI是在晶片的相关的产业链那大概是一片龙井但是在这个龙井之外其他的产业大概"},{"start":12523.175,"end":12536.351,"text":"看起來就沒有這樣的一個盛況看起來現在的除了科技產業外其他的產業現在是辛苦的那這個辛苦的來自於台灣的缺工問題因為少子化的問題因為台灣人台灣年輕學子他們就業選擇的問題"},{"start":12542.579,"end":12571.418,"text":"讓整個缺工是越來越嚴重所以我事實上也整理了一些數據的資料那我們看到說基本上如果以這個趨勢來看的話台灣的這樣的一個勞動力的一個人口會越來越少大概每年會減少18萬的一個勞動力所以要怎麼去補這樣勞動力的一個缺口這個是我們國發會必須要認真去思考的問題那我想請教我們主委你怎麼去看待這件事情"},{"start":12571.698,"end":12571.749,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":12572.225,"end":12601.605,"text":"台湾缺工的问题就有如委员说的是非常严重那尤其是在55岁以上的那个劳餐率这个部分来讲的话相对的也不是一个很那个数字看起来不是很漂亮然后我国的那个虽然说最近这几年那个中高龄的那个劳餐有呈现上升的现象但55岁以上的那个比例仍然比日本韩国新加坡跟美国都还要低而且年龄越高的话那差距越大"},{"start":12602.185,"end":12626.179,"text":"那在这边我们会建议就是说可能会希望就是说能够完善法令跟活化那个劳动力那这个部分的话会希望就是说提早让那个协商就是劳资双方提早协商那个延后退休这个部分那另外一个就是重新设计工作内容那提供在地全时或者是部分工时的一些工作"},{"start":12626.599,"end":12646.896,"text":"我想跟主委來說啦事實上台灣人在就業選擇的話因為現在已經是一個全球市場所以事實上很多人他事實上他在選擇工作的時候他可能在網路上就可以工作所以他可能所以就是說我同樣的我付出我的時間那我未必是要變受僱於人"},{"start":12647.436,"end":12667.692,"text":"有这样的一个趋势这个也是说台湾在因应全球化的趋势的时候我们的台湾人有跟上这样的脚步但是呢传统的工作工作也是要有人做包括3K产业包括我们现在到目前为止都没有开放的就像是餐饮服务业"},{"start":12668.992,"end":12687.319,"text":"餐飲服務業這一塊沒有開放事實上對於我們整個在推就是說這種基層的服務業我們台灣在目前腳步是走不出去走不出去我們當然是擔心說這個會取代了本勞台灣自己的就業機會"},{"start":12688.76,"end":12702.913,"text":"但是我覺得我們台灣我們事實上就是接近日本跟韓國日本跟韓國他們開放餐飲業跟旅宿業服務業事實上也已經心知有念了而且韓國甚至還會針對這一些"},{"start":12706.096,"end":12724.101,"text":"移工到韓國他還要設一個培訓機構而且甚至要先用考試的讓他先先做一個篩選然後讓他進來我覺得台灣事實上某些程度上我們為了讓整個產業事實上可以補足他的這個勞動力缺口我覺得至少在這一塊我們應該"},{"start":12726.421,"end":12749.534,"text":"就對在走啦 韓國 日本總是他們的民族性跟我們比較相仿嘛你如果說我們人歐美可能我們那些調性會比較不一樣民族性看起來日韓我們的經濟發展的趨勢也是差不多所以事實上這個腳步是可以跟著走的也不是我們台灣先創但是這個我估計國發會已經考慮看看了好不好"},{"start":12751.775,"end":12769.165,"text":"因為現在國發會我們這邊也在考慮說那個橋外生是不是可以慢慢的迎接進來所謂的旅宿業那在那個工作項目這個部分就工作範疇的話我們也希望說能夠開放中階技術的這些工作給橋外生"},{"start":12769.545,"end":12794.345,"text":"那我們也會持續的就是利用專案媒合旅宿業的一些所需的人力那也會補助旅宿業的一些來做招募人力的一個需要那最重要就是我們會希望說利用一些科技的輔助來降低這些旅宿業的那個人力需求當然 就是說科技進步有一些是可以用透過AI透過機器人來替代但是很多傳統的勞動"},{"start":12796.887,"end":12802.292,"text":"還是需要人力還是需要人勒你想說我認識一個專門就在在現場的特技馬在萬華很有名的一家他也是沒人 欠沒人特技馬特技馬這個動作"},{"start":12812.88,"end":12828.294,"text":"沒辦法用其他東西來取代還是要人力啊好不好那事實上也要去檢討就是說事實上我們也規定說一家雇主他聘用外國人的一個上限我們過去就把它規定是50%那我覺得這個50%這個也是可以檢討"},{"start":12831.216,"end":12845.569,"text":"是不是在四度上如果他這個產業他真的都是可能是山械產業他可能是比較偏向重牢力的這一種的話我是覺得這可以檢討因為我們可以台灣人可以說"},{"start":12847.971,"end":12865.473,"text":"看他領導階層的如果真的要付出勞力的這個50%這個數字是否需要到檢討的時候了我覺得這國安會應該要去思考看看目前勞動部其實正在規劃重新調整這個移工的比例跟配合限制還有他的機制"},{"start":12866.574,"end":12891.49,"text":"對我知道現在有在檢討所以我可能就想把這些問題說給你聽第二個主委我想在短短的時間再跟你聊一個我們知道現在長照對現在第一少子化第二也是高齡化所以現在老人家的照顧一直是一個家庭非常重要的事情那如果他的現在有可能一些子女他可能"},{"start":12893.735,"end":12908.933,"text":"但是他可能沒有他工作的時間上他沒有辦法去照顧他的父母所以他可能選擇要讓他的父母到機構去接受衛福部所謂的一個機構的一個照顧的話那目前就針對我們針對這一個"},{"start":12912.799,"end":12922.334,"text":"比方說評估等級四級以上或者是身心障礙中度以上的部分我們市商政府有補助在過去112年的時候我們把6萬塊拉到12萬這個很好"},{"start":12927.633,"end":12944.361,"text":"這個很好 但是我想要跟主委講兩個狀況第一個就是說 到底機構的收費狀況是如何以我現在看起來啦 真的最少最少的差不多2萬5啦平均都差不多3萬5那裡 服務比較好的有可能到4、5萬所以我說最少最少2萬5那我們補助12萬 就是一個月補助1萬"},{"start":12955.386,"end":12969.578,"text":"事實上我覺得這個可以去檢討一件事情我覺得國發會可以去做就是說我們這個補助如果可以適度的提高你在配合他們有的年金現在最普遍的老人家可能他的老人今天就是8000塊"},{"start":12971.579,"end":12994.915,"text":"那如果我們補助適度提高可以到現在兩萬五的這樣的一個養護型的一個等級他的子女不用再負擔費用老人家可以靠自己的年輕家鄉政府的幫忙他就可以去機構住事實上可以減少很多需要被照顧的獨居老人在家裡他們缺少照顧而且去機構至少會有個陪伴"},{"start":12995.615,"end":13003.635,"text":"這件事我覺得政府也可以去考慮是不是適度來提高過去從6萬到12萬12萬有沒有可能再提高"},{"start":13005.029,"end":13029.306,"text":"因為這個是衛福部是主責但我們會跟衛福部來演講這件事因為我太宗名義就說事實上整個政策的擬定都是國安會在抓所以主委你身責大任現在雖然是經濟委員會我一直很想講這個議題所以我在這裡還是跟主委去學習這議題國安會是不是可以站在你們抓政策的角度這個部分也來檢討一下 好不好好 感謝 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13038.117,"end":13056.959,"text":"好 接下来我们请王洪威 王洪威委员王洪威委员不在现场请徐沪奎委员请做询答谢谢主席 有请我们叶主委好 我们再请主委"},{"start":13062.748,"end":13070.496,"text":"委員長主委好主委我想我們賴總統一直有提到一個均衡台灣的一個施政理念那因為台灣這個"},{"start":13072.273,"end":13093.351,"text":"福原这个南北过去南北的差距然后还有城乡的一个落差那屏东县一直位于我们台湾那所以我们在很多基础建设上面确实是这个虽然这几年有积极在努力但是还是有很多的资源的不足主委您认同这样的一个均衡台湾的一个理念吗"},{"start":13093.959,"end":13115.721,"text":"我當然認同所以你願意來支持屏東縣的一個重大的建設嗎對 就是說屏東縣的建設應該也不只屏東啦應該台灣其他縣市的建設因為是屏東的事 我要先替屏東說一個理解理解好 所以我想第一個議題屏東縣政府已經提出一個漁業建設的一個專案計畫"},{"start":13117.563,"end":13146.358,"text":"那這個案子也獲得農業部的大力支持那包含我們的仿寮漁港 海伯濤大莊跟東海的養殖區的海水供應系統還有番仔輪的海水供應系統那這個因為涉及到捕撈業還有我們很重要的陸上養殖的一個產業這三大工程我想這是我們這個屏東過去啟南的農漁大縣我想這部分是我們很重要的一個漁業基礎建設那這個案子農業部審查之後會送到國會"},{"start":13147.358,"end":13174.814,"text":"主委这部分能不能加快来进行会就是说行政院已经在113年的3月都已经省定了农业部的农业永续经营基础计划第二期113年的8月也核定了养殖渔业振兴计划第二期那屏东县政府所提的那一个是跟农业部是比较会透过农业部补助地方的"},{"start":13175.314,"end":13192.957,"text":"評比競爭機制然後排列那個順序我們會加速處理主委因為這個經費也不少差不多將近三十億因為我們的部會每次講到這個錢的問題都傷腦筋尤其我們現在整個預算的吃緊然後加上財化法的關係"},{"start":13193.878,"end":13206.252,"text":"那你要讓屏東縣政府來負擔這樣一個龐大的預算真的是沒辦法啦尤其屏東縣明年可能少了42億啊這部分國發會能不能大力來支持這個不..."},{"start":13212.75,"end":13238.505,"text":"對 我們會跟農業部再來演上一下不是 加快進行好不好好 沒問題你們這樣每次審議都審議很久了不會 我會加快另外我想我還要特別提到我們交通的一個困境尤其我們這個南迴的部分到目前為止秉東市唯一沒有雙軌化的部分所以我們一直推動南迴的鐵路的拼金改善跟很重要我們訪寮車站的一個大平台高架計畫"},{"start":13239.451,"end":13250.315,"text":"尤其這個訪寮車站這個不是只有交通問題而是兩個平交道會造成一個做大注意的問題我想除了這個改善平交道的交通瓶頂之外"},{"start":13250.714,"end":13270.249,"text":"能够把它高架之后也把我们的治水的一个工程能够一并来做处理那这个案子也讲了很久那交通部这个案子已经有送到国家会跟新城院了因为这一个案子我们去年就已经审好了然后回去了那我们基本上是支持了现在就是等院那边核定了那主委也帮我们说一下可以啦"},{"start":13272.677,"end":13301.25,"text":"那另外一個對我們屏南這個恆春半島觀光很重要的就是屏南觀光鐵道那這個案子鐵道局已經在今年8月開過期末審查那也已經通過了那下一步就要送到我們的行政院來審核那我想恆春這幾年觀光的人潮當然有受到減少但是我們也期待未來藉由這樣一個屏南觀光鐵道配合我們整個交通的一個屏南快速道路的進行把我們這個遊客也好這個很多的一個交通的"},{"start":13301.61,"end":13317.171,"text":"困境能够解除这部分主委我们目前进度审到哪里目前就是交通部还没有呈报给院里面那交通部的那个铁道局会在8月28号召开可行性的那个伪办案的期末审查会议那"},{"start":13320.045,"end":13341.413,"text":"國發會後續會這樣配合行政院交易之後辦理審查事宜如果交通部那邊送過來再拜託主委一下 趕快進行好最後一個恆春半島有一個提了一個半島變形easy go的計畫還有主委你有去過我們家的家路水嗎還沒有你以前有沒有畢業旅行那些都一定要去的地方"},{"start":13342.794,"end":13369.873,"text":"我有去鵝鸾比啦有去那个南湾那里满洲加烙水是一个国人旅行必须的一个景点那这因为后来因为整个一个设备的老旧甚至一个交通的影响那我想屏东县政府也提出了一个半岛变形Easy Go去整合了幸福巴士小王公车跟客户共载的一个案子那这个经费三千四百多万要希望中央能够大力来补助"},{"start":13370.473,"end":13393.212,"text":"那加落水跟港口吊橋的一個改造計劃這個經費是我們屏東縣政府積極推動地方觀光再造的一個關鍵計劃那主委這個歡迎你來屏東看一看我想未來打造這個南台灣的一個觀光亮點這是一個很重要的一個計劃那期待主委大力來支持好這部分是不是可以你跟交通部快點處理好不好好啊"},{"start":13393.852,"end":13406.517,"text":"但是因為管政府現在還沒把價位算到...沒有啦 它不會算出來阿我先要請你倒算好啦好啦 要叫人家快點算你來的時候 現在看到我們現在光光亮點 好不好好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":13412.884,"end":13429.633,"text":"接下來我們請劉建國委員劉建國劉建國委員接下來我們請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱洪孟凱委員接下來請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎徐欣穎委員接下來請葉元芝委員葉元芝葉元芝委員接下來請陳冠"},{"start":13434.245,"end":13452.714,"text":"陳冠廷委員 陳冠廷 陳冠廷委員接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員接下來請林楚英委員林楚英委員 林楚英委員OK 那麼現場有劉建國委員因為我們剛才念過了特別三分鐘來 請劉建國委員"},{"start":13463.083,"end":13486.632,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請我們新科的葉主委我們再請葉主委主委很高興你所對於國會主委的身份印象到委員會來做業務的報告那我想國會是作為國家發展的一個重要核心的一個單位兼負責過化台灣這個未來的經濟社會區域的發展的重責大任"},{"start":13487.412,"end":13501.955,"text":"所以你上任的這個報告我特別給你看過我希望你可以帶來創新的思維跟新的一個氣象還有這個強力的一個協調這樣的一個整合的能力謝謝但是坦白講你醫護報告好像還有一些進步的空間國衛的預測報告是說114名間投資實質成長將近10%等同快將近6兆然後但民間的這個實質成長卻不到1%"},{"start":13513.564,"end":13531.74,"text":"我要這邊請問主委國家投資這麼大的金額怎麼消費數字會這麼低這是我代表著整個經濟成果成長的果實根本分配不均然後也凸顯到這個薪資的停滯中等階級的焦慮甚至以這個貧富的差距擴大的系統性問題"},{"start":13532.844,"end":13557.537,"text":"因為這個部分就是我們國人非常喜歡出國旅遊尤其去日本所以有一些當然在整個國民會計所得上來講的話它會有一個抵銷效果但是有一個很大的差別在國內消費跟國外消費的話它那個整個乘數效果就不會出來就是說我們在台灣花一塊錢跟在日本花一塊錢對台灣的經濟貢獻其實是有差異性的但是在國民所得上上面來講它會消掉"},{"start":13558.325,"end":13586.519,"text":"但是怎麼跟你的報告不一樣你們是原本在主計總數是在今年5月28號的花布114年間的民間消費成長預估還有1.36%那短短不到5個月你們的報告又再度下修到剩下0.85%跟委員報告就是因為關稅那一個不確定性使得有一些耐久性的消費財其實有下降對阿這個跟出國應該沒有直接關係吧到底是關稅到底是哪一個"},{"start":13587.604,"end":13603.536,"text":"出國那一個部分的話也會是一部分所以這個大的差異性的話會哪一個部分比較大就是那一個關稅那一個部分關稅比較大但是你們自己的報告消費疲軟歸就於上半年股市交易量能縮減"},{"start":13606.576,"end":13634.453,"text":"114年的上半年的股市量有縮減嗎然後影響財務效果以及民眾觀望 汽車 建廣關稅 地研購車沒有 應該是未來的 我們預一整年未來一整年 對那你到底是什麼主要的因素 占了讓我們的這樣的消費指數成長率在下降我們下半年會好一點上半年 我現在跟你講整個年度嘛 對不對對對對 你的報告裡面也是在講整個年度嘛 對啊"},{"start":13636.124,"end":13659.177,"text":"那你現在跟我講下半年會比較好下半年的那一個部分的話會因為就是說我們有那個發那個現金一萬塊對所以你們今天的報告是有把一萬塊納入在你們的消費指數裡面嗎有的成長率裡面嗎有那如果有還下降呢原本是一共1.36嘛現在是下降0.85嘛"},{"start":13663.757,"end":13691.161,"text":"28號的數字是太早的預估怎麼叫做太早預估因為現在已經8月了請按下去有有有有按下去對對對所以5月到8月那個其實狀況算差蠻大因為因為一般來講像主計處5像中進院的話5月在估的時候他剛剛答案是太早預估那你現在已經把1萬塊也預估在5到8月之間然後還下降了"},{"start":13692.972,"end":13701.472,"text":"但是下半年的啦下半年的這一塊啦你今年度114年度你們的預估消費指數的成長是多少嗎"},{"start":13703.596,"end":13716.162,"text":"你跟我講114年你們的預估全年度的消費成長指數是多少委員你這個PPT上面那個114年是第一劑是1.36我知道他讓你寫第一劑沒有錯啊你第一劑然後我現在請教你是114年度對一整年"},{"start":13725.356,"end":13747.814,"text":"就是說你第一季是1.36 你到第二季就下修了嘛 對不對你到第三季 一樣又下修嘛對 因為汽車的進口 關稅的因素 延遲了民間的消費汽車的一個進口 對不對 延遲消費 然後加上國人都在國外消費喔 再加上國人都在國外消費 對然後可是第四季 我們全年預估現在主季總數是逾零點"},{"start":13750.805,"end":13758.642,"text":"明年八五沒有放到消費券這些還有下半年主委剛剛答覆我有放進去明年預估明年的預估"},{"start":13760.236,"end":13789.572,"text":"明年的預估我現在跟你討論一直討論是今年的預估主委講的是說今年會超過主計總數的5.45是因為要原因是有消費券的就是重慶苑的估計5.45是有包括那個消費券1萬塊的好 直接的關係清清楚楚的把你們的預估為什麼會下修然後到最後一季你說還會再往上調整一些嘛對不對把相關的因素全部給我們做一個參考這是第一件事情嘛"},{"start":13790.092,"end":13818.326,"text":"那第二件事情我要特別拜託主委啦你剛來我覺得有些事情可以來到協調到承擔就是我在去年在114年6月11號的時候在總諮詢特別跟當時院長還有那時候的國部長特別有建議AI人才培訓基地首度可以考慮到雲林因為雲林有一個這個國科會中部科學管理局的委員區然後還有相關的這些"},{"start":13819.127,"end":13832.085,"text":"跟整個AI的中下游的產業鏈然後最近的就是虎哥大已經有跟無人機AI雙核心的這樣的課程已經在推動了"},{"start":13833.834,"end":13850.331,"text":"那現在有一個環球它的舊值有將近30公頃然後還有12棟校舍那經濟部顯然到現在好像一直規劃不出來這當時是有承諾而且要往下推的然後他們說報國安會好像"},{"start":13850.991,"end":13865.622,"text":"意見寥寥啦齁我希望竹圍展現新的一個這樣的一個氣象啦一個魄力這個地方不需要再這麼多花費的任何費用然後有這麼多可以來利用的這個校舍的空間然後場域又這麼寬廣"},{"start":13867.363,"end":13888.343,"text":"然後又有虎科又有雲科又可以扮演在中部地區整個AI人才培訓的最重的這樣的一個基地主委是不是可以思考來了解之後趕快馬上進行規劃實質來看應該怎麼來做處理因為這個案子我們在7月23號其實有回復院只是院那邊還沒有核定那就請主委來結束"},{"start":13889.865,"end":13906.977,"text":"積極來看怎樣處理好不好願我會催當然要有主委看你有沒有新的思維讓這件事情能不能趕快的沉澱落定趕快讓我們更多的這個人才可以在這個地方孕育而生可以吧一個禮拜內好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":13915.623,"end":13939.975,"text":"謝謝 那登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢 詢答結束委員林楚英所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢以及未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會本日所列的議程處理完畢謝謝大家 謝謝所有議事組人員現在散會 謝謝"},{"start":13954.583,"end":13965.207,"text":"一堆真實的我們五阿媽們的問題有幾件就是反正他有一個重建我也會要去我們派一位住所"},{"start":14010.735,"end":14011.102,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"}]}},{"id":"16963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16963","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea54f5580a36c7ffd65d95d6d2321d64900aa126c40303dc277b4e0ff8a14a2c355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-20T08:35:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T10:58:00+08:00","duration":8555,"影片長度":"02:22:35","委員發言時間":"08:35:25 - 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當前的全國治安狀況"},{"start":1729.67,"end":1735.134,"text":"我們統計113年9月至114年8月止全國刑案的發生數為64萬5790件其中詐欺案件22萬4290件佔整體刑案34.73%政府會持續來強力打詐從警政署114年上半年民眾對治安滿意度的調查結果"},{"start":1755.319,"end":1777.522,"text":"國人對於居住社區治安的狀況滿意度高達91.78%且連續三年維持九成以上在國內重大案件發生多數都能快速的偵破那未破案件除有管轄的警察機關組來積極偵辦跟管之外也由我們警政署的刑事警察局資源加速偵破"},{"start":1779.073,"end":1801.515,"text":"而在針對打詐掃黑企圖跟速槍四大犯罪的一個趨勢跟問題的一個測定增防策略我們也透過跨部會的平台來通力合作來防止詐騙黑幫毒品及非法槍械的危害二在強化總統副總統安全的警衛作業來避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全部分"},{"start":1802.642,"end":1827.853,"text":"我們鑑於近期國際的一個政要的一個維安事故時有所聞在強化總統副總統安全警衛作為實屬必要我們警政署將強化各種的一個狀況預判以確保萬全在加強情收跟警衛的一個部署我們在加強特種的勤務前都有掌握維安的一個目標動態來強化通報警衛的部署"},{"start":1828.82,"end":1855.43,"text":"各機關也配合國家安全局的特種勤務指揮中心掀起過濾清查涉中涉黑的人士來強化人員的辨識跟物品的檢查在上下車點的一個進化我們在防止突襲攻擊並加強查查歷齡場所及警衛的路線的周邊做強化的一個攔截的圍捕我們也更嚴密的一個"},{"start":1856.857,"end":1876.893,"text":"利林場所的周邊的警衛部署來並視活動的性質的部署來遙控無人機的一個反制小組三在落實中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全部分我們在警衛的一個派遣"},{"start":1877.472,"end":1906.503,"text":"也是依照中央政府機關首長及特定人事安全警衛派遣作業規定除行政院長安全警衛由警政署規劃派遣外其餘的安全維護的對象吳院院長 吳院的副院長各部會的首長及承認總統副總統在履歷條例屆滿後會納入安全警衛的一個派遣範疇向警政署申請派遣該署保安警察第六總隊來執行在教育訓練部分"},{"start":1907.335,"end":1935.526,"text":"我們在各安全警衛的實施的實警演練來強化我們警衛人員應變的一個能力防止安危的對象遭跟拍保六總隊設定反跟監跟車作業及實施專案的一個訓練另外我們也在加強安全警衛的一個特殊查核由保六總隊送行法務部調查局來辦理特殊查核加強安全警衛人員考核監督的責任如有發生違法或品德操守上之違紀行為"},{"start":1936.653,"end":1965.404,"text":"主管管應付考核監督不周知責任結語內政部的警政署會來持續督促各警察機關來入力維護治安工作另外為了避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全將落實總統副總統中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業及訓練查核機制來以達警衛萬全之目標以上報告也敬請各位委員先進"},{"start":1966.391,"end":1967.611,"text":"來賜予指教謝謝謝謝我們剛才議事日還沒確定到現在超過3個是不是有什麼問題沒有沒有喔那這樣我們議事日確定再來我們其他的單位會報告請委員執行參與並刊登公報現在我們來進行諮詢委員執行的請"},{"start":1997.082,"end":2006.686,"text":"有研會做幾點宣告每位委員的發言時間本會的委員宣告必須延長兩分鐘若不是本會的委員宣告可以在10點30分到定期實際發言的時間有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":2024.631,"end":2039.979,"text":"在這個會議當中我們沒有要處理臨時提案這裡的委員會有什麼意見那麼這樣我們就繼續來執行我們這裡第一位的黃姐委員執行好 謝謝主席 我們先請警政署長"},{"start":2053.547,"end":2053.768,"text":"藍家署長"},{"start":2058.015,"end":2086.655,"text":"委員長署長好跟您請教一下最近國際上破獲一個這個柬埔寨很多詐騙園區都被解散了那也是因為英國跟美國他們聯合起訴了這個首腦據說叫做陳志的這個首腦那當然我看到令我最驚訝的是這個首腦至今其實出入台灣十次之多那包括台灣的酒間公司三位台灣人"},{"start":2087.495,"end":2108.729,"text":"也都在這個制裁的名單裡面所以我想知道的是台灣在這方面到底有什麼是我們可以做到的包括說這樣子的國際的情資我們有收集到嗎這個城市據說是中國人後來取得柬埔寨籍那後來他也取得非常多的多重國籍在國際上到處爬爬造"},{"start":2110.37,"end":2113.315,"text":"那來台灣十次了我們有發現這是一個問題人物嗎有發現說其實他在柬埔寨經營多達十個詐騙園區嗎我們打詐打這麼久現在發現了這個首腦竟然來台灣這麼多次"},{"start":2126.961,"end":2143.488,"text":"委員我們初步從這個資料的這個顯示裡面我們了解這個城市出入台灣大概是在111年以前110年以後就沒有發現到台灣來的這種狀況那這個案件是由美國的"},{"start":2144.128,"end":2159.036,"text":"司法部跟財政部單方面發起起訴跟制裁的作為那他發布了這個這個發動了這個作為之前是沒有要求我們提供相關的資料那不過這個案件我們有透過FBI主動去做聯繫那這個案子"},{"start":2161.758,"end":2180.649,"text":"也已經報請台北地檢署檢察官在指揮正辦當中那對於他所提到這個集團裡面的相關的包括他的相關的這個所謂誰講的幾個份子或者是這些公司那我們現在大概都有掌握當中我們會配合警方來做一個偵查"},{"start":2181.786,"end":2202.444,"text":"好 那我想知道的是像這樣子的人物他出入境的時候我們到底有沒有辦法第一時間偵獲他是一個問題人物然後包括說他使用的護照到底有什麼問題那他這樣子出入境的記錄我們跟海關之間跟國際的這一些情資之間到底有沒有辦法把這個破洞"},{"start":2203.485,"end":2222.763,"text":"把它補起來應該沒有問題就是說如果這個對象是讓我們事先掌握這種情形他的出入境對於我們跟移民署的這個相關的這個聯繫那入境完之後再從事的這些相關是不是有非核活動我們是有能力去做監控跟處理的"},{"start":2223.186,"end":2250.353,"text":"好 這個要拜託署長希望這方面因為我認為這是一個對國際上也是對全世界受詐騙在受到非常嚴重的侵害的國家包括最近韓國人也說他們有大概好幾百個人在這個詐騙園區因此釋惑然後回來分享他們的經驗那我認為這個都是非常大的一個進展是的 我們一定會全力來打仗的好 這個拜託署長 謝謝那再來我們請國安局林執行長"},{"start":2256.981,"end":2284.68,"text":"好 署長可以先回座那跟您請教一下我們國慶日當天中國國安部有發布了一個這個台獨水軍的名單那一個是台灣的軍官另外一個是台灣一個公司的王姓負責人然後中國非常大動作的把這個王姓負責人指控說他長期製作然後宣揚台獨的內容只因為他接過台灣政府的228的展覽還有人權走讀工作坊的標案"},{"start":2285.28,"end":2302.86,"text":"然後甚至說他是一個集團的首腦然後在南部跟我們長老教會有聯繫然後還介入什麼香港的社會運動等等把它說成是一個國際反中聯盟的核心那我在這邊想請教國安局針對中共這樣子的指控有沒有什麼你有什麼表示嗎"},{"start":2306.898,"end":2323.004,"text":"向委員報告那個職的專業是特種勤務那有關剛剛委員所提問的問題那我將帶回我們局裡向委員再做報告好 謝謝林執行長你就是沒有辦法理解這個意義所在就是了"},{"start":2324.315,"end":2352.974,"text":"我跟你報告啦這其實很明顯就是跨境鎮壓嘛他很明顯想要侵害台灣的主權把台灣的這一些我們平常公民的活動把他指控是一個說是一個台獨然後要進行相關的製裁這其實很明顯就是在混淆我們台灣的國安的安全啊這樣子的跨境鎮壓的行為其實不只是針對台灣中共在世界各國上都是用同樣的手法在進行這樣子"},{"start":2354.495,"end":2360.238,"text":"逾越主權的方式在侵害他國的這樣子的行為所以我在這邊想要跟我們國安局建議的就是其實美國眾議院他們的國土安全委員會的聽證會上就有建議說美國應該也要來進行跨境鎮壓相關的法案來明確定義說這種跨境鎮壓就是非法行為啊你怎麼可以去跨境鎮壓他國的人民呢"},{"start":2381.79,"end":2398.103,"text":"那更何況我們在做的只是一個公民運動所以我也認為說國安局是不是應該針對這樣子的內容進行相關的檢討難道這個台獨水軍的案件你們到現在都沒有任何的言議或是任何的作為嗎報告委員"},{"start":2401.368,"end":2419.237,"text":"那就如果是特種勤務的話本中心對於相關的蒞臨場所勤務都有相關的對於維安的一些萬全準備那之所以向委員所提到的這類問題因為不在本中心的專業範圍所以將委員的問題我們將會帶回去給"},{"start":2422.523,"end":2437.215,"text":"好 謝謝林執行長我也是希望說既然今天是國安局派來的代表那我們提的這些案件你們應該都要有基本的掌握是好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 我們感謝黃鐵委員質詢"},{"start":2460.543,"end":2462.624,"text":"好謝謝那我們請王美惠召委主席"},{"start":2475.538,"end":2479.741,"text":"蔣委長 請署長署長 因為我覺得要改革問題還要緊是那這個業務報告寫得漂亮漂亮的那都不好是 在我之前做議員的時候在地方的議會的時候我們現在讓議會副議長 中議長都說大家都寫得漂亮漂亮的 寫得破案多少"},{"start":2505.814,"end":2510.199,"text":"因為滿意度多 跟事實上都沒有是這樣的署長 本期要跟你談到的就是我們現在的治安問題"},{"start":2519.212,"end":2524.497,"text":"在你們學完的報告裡面你們說到這三天內的滿意度90%啦但是聽起來90%的時候會覺得說跟18% 90%很多的啦 也很厲害的啊 也很認真的啊"},{"start":2539.121,"end":2540.022,"text":"不過 署長 你說是想要讓我們的地方 地安更好所以我們要解決問題 你知道五年前 我們的民意有多少嗎"},{"start":2553.717,"end":2557.058,"text":"跟趙薇報告 趙薇所說的就是這90%是對於我們住家附近的資源我知道了 現在就是說 師長 我知道啦我現在是要跟你討論說 我覺得要讓北省"},{"start":2571.963,"end":2575.624,"text":"有感覺啦要跟你討論的就是說你以前有時候會說我們幾檔有多少幾檔有多少啦現在我要跟你討論的就是說你的業務報告裡面寫說3檔我們滿意度90%本身要跟你說的是在本身收了解收看資料的啦"},{"start":2601.243,"end":2605.905,"text":"那94%多啦全國性的齁全國性的大概是在那個46到65%中啦全國性的啦全國性的全國性的啦全國性的啊你那一座你現在看這座的地是對我們住家的社區的這個大家的感覺因為每一個每一個的所在社區的還有全國性的是因為你也寫得很清楚是我現在要跟你說的就是說"},{"start":2630.077,"end":2634.94,"text":"我們也能夠好一點啦不然你看3年的時候是90%95年的時候94%這樣我們是退步的不是進步的你這樣說最好要更加更好啦沒有那個滿意的啦這樣我說給你聽啦這樣我們就不要再太滿意了"},{"start":2654.602,"end":2658.383,"text":"我意思是說 地安是要更加好應該是持續清淨在裡面 我也剛才說到現在說到地安的問題地安的問題在我們的你知道我來自嘉義市嗎嘉義市的時候 地安爆發很多"},{"start":2682.657,"end":2688.501,"text":"憲案裡面都亂發在亂發裡面 多數是詐騙集團的案件所以署長 你想想看現在大家如果聽到詐騙集團第一句話都說什麼 啊這沒辦法發啦這沒辦法啦 錢可以回來啦署長 你身為一個主管單位"},{"start":2711.021,"end":2714.484,"text":"你們要給北省人員一個兇人,不知道怎麼叫他,他自己也有這個問題,但是我問你們中央單位,可以跟地方有什麼合作,讓我抱著嗎?"},{"start":2729.332,"end":2751.486,"text":"我想說這個詐騙現在是國人最大的問題中央一定是跟地方一定是結合那不管是在這個科技或者是人員的訓練全國是統一一致的而且是針對詐欺的這個核心的集團在做偵辦我想就給大家報告說詐欺案件是會破不是說不會破"},{"start":2751.926,"end":2755.068,"text":"我知道啦 我知道你們有怕 這是給北市的感覺 覺得說怕的時候是覺得很小聲的 做無奈的時候他覺得方便第一時間來報案 來叫人到三更的時候有時候到現在喔 跟當事人連絡也沒有喔"},{"start":2776.318,"end":2779.702,"text":"市長,這是有的,我們身為一個民意代表,就希望百姓可以更好跟這個詐騙的問題,真的很嚴重,你們要去處理,何況在家裡,家裡好大,我不敢說家裡有很多錢"},{"start":2796.858,"end":2802.442,"text":"但是他的想法很平凡所以詐騙集團的案件的限制我希望署長要去了解他可以讓地方要怎麼去選擇給人這個詐騙可以減輕再來未來我們的總統副總統所有的地方市長的案件問題有的改善有的這樣口口答答的欺負你們也沒辦法為了"},{"start":2825.737,"end":2835.299,"text":"有啦 有發動啦 不是沒發動啦真的喔 有發動啦 不然你就沒發動了啦真的喔 這樣啦 市長因為我們這是一個國安團隊齁而且我們國內對於總統副總統的這個安排是有準備的 市長你現在如果要說沒發動一星期以來 你的沒發動跟我們的詐騙集團跟議區可以拋後多少以上的資料給我好 沒問題好 謝謝王美惠 張偉 謝謝署長"},{"start":2855.356,"end":2856.837,"text":"那再讓我們請六市庭委員謝主席張署長有請家屬長委員長"},{"start":2874.468,"end":2900.209,"text":"主長 台灣是一個言論自由的社會喔但是喔 這個尤其是在政治的場域喔這個言論自由往往其實也不只是台灣啦現在全世界各式各樣的言論逐漸走向極端化而且越來越出格啦像我們這個黃捷委員這一陣子也受了很多的委屈嘛對不對但是我要問的是這樣啊就我們到底那條界線應該劃在哪裡啦我希望來做一下討論因為這個我想這個尤其"},{"start":2901.628,"end":2921.027,"text":"這個 我想這個應該蠻對警政署來講其實也是一個蠻困擾的議題啦這你們一年大概收多少這樣子的報案政治人物啊就彼此之間政治口水噴來噴去不管是網友罵政治人物政治人物互相罵來罵去還是怎麼樣你們大概一年有多少個這樣子的案件要處理我想這個倒是還少 再少數報案的應該很少"},{"start":2921.793,"end":2943.766,"text":"報案的應該很少報案竟然很少就不會說因為我案量實在太多到時候我沒有辦法處理那個報案不多報案很少那我就很好奇因為事實上大家都會知道而且大家心裡都有所不甘都覺得自己被雙重標準來對待比如說我們之前在國會激烈衝突的時候對不對本席的照片也被放到民主靈堂裡面去對不對這個"},{"start":2946.674,"end":2970.315,"text":"民眾黨黃國昌總召 對不對 我們立法院韓國瑜院長我們本黨的各個立委 我們的遺照都被布置靈堂 被舉辦告別式那時候大家也報案啊 可是好像這案子就不了了之 對不對那可是民眾啊 看不下去 因為北檢辦案 很多爭議所以就把北檢檢察官 他也比照辦理 對不對他也幫他辦民主告別式 完蛋 馬上辦"},{"start":2971.827,"end":2980.347,"text":"辦完之後馬上抓抓完之後還收押請問署長這麼多奇怪這其實從政治攻防的角度來看這都政治口水嘛對不對他罵我們我罵北檢民眾"},{"start":2982.085,"end":3005.255,"text":"激情的民眾等等都是一個這樣的樣態啊但為什麼有些人就辦了有些人不了了之呢主長你們這辦的標準是什麼你們現在辦的概況是什麼說明一下我想就是這樣我要稍微說明一下台灣是一個人權法治跟言論自由的一個國家但是要法治啦那言論自由就是一個核心的就是在保障"},{"start":3006.255,"end":3031.592,"text":"这个意见的自由的流通这个是有充分的这个自我实现的这种状况但是这个言论自由不是作为这个散播仇恨跟鼓吹犯罪这个基准那我想就是说一定要有这些的事证跟证据事证跟证据就是说可能他的我们那个灵堂的照片都网路上传封了算证据啊但后来不了了之嘛"},{"start":3032.052,"end":3041.983,"text":"那當然這些案件我們警察大概初步的偵查大概就是會跟地檢署來做一個報指揮來偵辦那來做一個所以還是由地檢署來指揮偵辦對應該都是由地檢署來做指揮偵辦那當然這個偵辦的結果是以地檢署的偵辦的結果做一個結果"},{"start":3051.753,"end":3064.746,"text":"那未來就是說我們特別要強調就是有一些是有界限的就是說對於散播醜聞或鼓吹犯罪或甚至散貨或者是恐嚇危害這些大概就是有一個過程要件那如果"},{"start":3069.731,"end":3085.827,"text":"有這個過程要見有達到要見我們當然就是會給地檢署來處理再暴力一點如果今天民眾在網路上或是馬路旁邊如果用我們今天賴清德總統的照片他也辦民主告別式然後說他心中英明神武的賴清德總統已經死了那你們是辦還是不辦"},{"start":3086.98,"end":3106.378,"text":"我們當然是看他收集證據完之後的狀況就是一樣 跟我們那時候國會的狀況一樣還是如果這個收集這個情形這個到底他的動機是要做什麼這個動機如果是有危害性有散落性有恐嚇性那當然還是會依法來做一個來做一個偵查跟處理"},{"start":3107.179,"end":3121.404,"text":"我想就是一個基礎點要先去瞭解它的這個對啦本期要提醒你只有這個事情不可以雙標啦因為你越雙標的時候其實整個社會的言論市場的走位會更奇怪我想我們的觀念跟做法是會一致啦沒關係你匯整一下啦就是我剛剛講這種政治口水性質的仇恨言論你剛剛講說案量其實不多那你就做個整理嘛然後各項偵辦的進度你剛剛有講到一個點可能是因為地檢署指揮偵辦"},{"start":3135.149,"end":3150.967,"text":"這強弱有別等等但沒關係我們要把這事情還原啦好不好這麻煩警政署長幫我們準備一下資料那我們要提醒不要裝飆第二個是你們對於收集這些政治口水的管道是什麼這其實本席也算蠻好奇的比如說我們這個網紅館長對不對前一陣子也是講了"},{"start":3154.391,"end":3181.911,"text":"那當然極端言論都是不對的講了對我們賴清德總統不太尊敬的這樣子的話那他當然馬上就被調查了那我想請問這調查的過程裡面當然你們也是配合檢警指揮偵辦嘛 對不對那在這調查裡面你們是模式是什麼呢是你們會主動看這些本來平常就很衝的這些言論然後進行管控跟了解還是說你們是比如說我接到人家檢舉還是我看到新聞他可能變成輿論事件然後我來去做偵辦請問你們在這種"},{"start":3183.772,"end":3211.377,"text":"在這種你們在避免仇恨言論為前提下的這些監視跟管控的這些措施你們的執行標準是什麼可不可以請署長檢查說明我們不會去做監控跟管制不會主動看嘛我們不會去做這個事情那現在就是說警察是執行這個法律是一個就是執法的一個單位那以館長這個案件來這個案例來講是我們受理民眾的檢舉受理檢舉嘛受理檢舉來做偵辦的"},{"start":3212.937,"end":3232.138,"text":"這個案件的過程是受理檢舉來做偵辦的所以這就回到其實回到本席剛剛那個問題嘛也就是說好你現在至少在辦案過程中你要很明確的宣示嘛基本上就不告不理嘛因為每天吵架你也不可能主動處理主動處理也太麻煩對不對所以這不告不理的一個情況之下那就是處理之後一樣回到標準的問題啦"},{"start":3233.259,"end":3249.434,"text":"本席在這邊簡單做一下結論因為時間有限本席希望至少要做到透明要做到負責要做到平等尤其是標準要其一本席好好等你這一份跟政治口水相關案件的一個調查報告我們再來做後續的討論可以嗎可以謝謝謝謝我們感謝劉希霆委員我們家張志倫委員執行"},{"start":3263.237,"end":3269.044,"text":"好謝謝主席 各位委員各位官員大家早 我有請內政部吳長賜謝謝吳長賜長賜好"},{"start":3278.175,"end":3306.19,"text":"今天討論的主題是如何避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全那這邊我要跟常事報告一下就是說本席今天也要為一群已經是我們的家人卻是為國家制度歧視的自己人發聲就是之前內政部依照你們自己本身的解釋用國籍法取消了很多我們的一些入籍的議員或者是里長的一些參政權"},{"start":3307.426,"end":3320.748,"text":"這邊我要先請教我們的次長台灣人民到大陸拿的是應該是台胞證大陸人民來台灣是依照內政部移民署核發的入境許可證"},{"start":3321.57,"end":3341.882,"text":"所以這證明了我國現行的憲法的框架跟法律框架講兩岸的關係本來就不是國與國的關係所以我想要請教為什麼當時我們內政部因為依照國籍法的規定要求這些在台灣已經生活很久二三十年以上"},{"start":3342.694,"end":3359.106,"text":"的這些入籍的一些朋友要求他們要放棄這個國籍證明的辦理這樣的手續這樣是不是會有一點自我自相矛盾刻意刁難的問題他們到底是應該用兩岸人民關係條例還是依照應該要用國籍法來我請次長回答"},{"start":3359.963,"end":3388.01,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教那我想先說明一下大陸人士如果說嫁到我們台灣他是所謂的陸配那陸配來講的話第一個我們會讓他居留然後依照一定的時間年限就可以在我們台灣居留現在是居留滿10年然後要再待取得這個戶籍跟身分證然後再待10年才能取得參政權嘛對不對那在兩岸條例裡面他的規定就是說"},{"start":3389.028,"end":3415.495,"text":"只要滿十年以上其實在我國都可以取得一個參政的一個資格但是如果是扶任公職的部分再依照我們相關國際法的規定其實他本來就應該要有放棄他在大陸的一個身份那這個在兩岸條例第九條裡面都有相關的規定這他要放棄那個中國大陸的護照還有那個泛國大陸的戶籍我想這個在規定上其實他都是有的也就是說兩岸條例本身他是說"},{"start":3417.318,"end":3443.051,"text":"他沒有反對你參捐錢但是你如果要扶公職的話你一定要有不能只能二則一啦你如果要到台灣來那你要扶台灣的公職那照規定你就不可以具有中國大陸的一個身份的一個國籍資料所以他之前就是依照規定嘛他有放棄戶籍的證明是的確有提供嘛那現在想請教次長的就是說因為大陸地區的人民根本沒有辦法拿到這樣的證件啊那為什麼內政部你們現在還要"},{"start":3445.053,"end":3460.745,"text":"繼續堅持用國籍法的規定無視兩岸關係條例以及選罷法的規定來剝奪他們的權利所以市長我這邊有一個活生生的案例因為本席的選區也有一個陸配她這個嫁來台灣以後跟著她老公也是"},{"start":3461.665,"end":3479.988,"text":"這個里長辛辛苦苦的做了二三十年那他的老公後來因為這個因病離開了我們他後來也是認真努力然後繼續擔任里長也是民選出來的那我要跟這個次長報告的是說剛剛有特別講不管是我國人民跟大陸地區"},{"start":3481.141,"end":3507.455,"text":"的人出入境都不是使用護照第二個他們其實已經不用提供放棄國籍證明的原因是因為他們這些里長在參選的時候都把他們的資料清清楚楚的刊登在選舉的公報身上姓名經歷跟所有全世界的選民公開宣示其實這是可供檢視的所以我不清楚為什麼現在次長你還是"},{"start":3508.823,"end":3537.516,"text":"覺得這樣子不足認定他已經選擇了台灣認同的台灣嗎所以我要再要請教內政部的政策現在還是要把這麼辛苦的陸配這樣的人才永久排除於在台灣的民主實現之外嗎請次長謝謝委員指教我想我剛也有跟委員報告就是說如果是在兩岸條例規定的話那你如果要符合十年以上是可以來這裡參政權那未來我們其實也針對我們的公職選罷法的施行細則已經有要求後"},{"start":3539.316,"end":3567.386,"text":"候選人如果你是原本具大陸身份的那你就要做一個拒絕你並沒有大陸的戶籍 護照或其他的國籍我想這個部分是說參政是第一個的部分如果一旦你選上了你就要去檢附這個你並沒有具大陸的戶籍跟護照的一個身份那這個也是我們的規定現在目前就是朝這個方式來處理好 謝謝次長其實次長剛剛講到一個今天我剛剛等一下要問到的一個重點因為陸委會最近的新聞也特別提出就是您說的"},{"start":3568.294,"end":3585.984,"text":"只要拒絕就是放棄戶籍跟護照的聲明就有參政權那就你們當時提的說要取得放棄大陸國籍證明這個沒有辦法取得的資料是背道而馳的所以現在這個內政部是支持陸委會的想法嗎"},{"start":3586.949,"end":3603.952,"text":"是不是說以後不用再取據這個過去拿不到的放棄中國大陸國籍證明因為根本就取得不到這樣的資料嘛所以現在以後內政部也同意陸委會的看法是不是只要拒絕了以後他們的參政權下一次選舉就可以回復我跟委員報告拒絕只是他一個參政的一個說明而已"},{"start":3604.292,"end":3629.19,"text":"如果他一旦選上了扶公職那就還是要回到國際法20條的規定我想這個是很明確的這個可以讓他參政跟市長報告陸委會為什麼會發這個聲明的原因其實就是要打臉內政部啊你就是用兩岸人民關係條例去放棄戶籍以及這個這個護照就可以啦你叫他取得一個完全沒辦法取得的這個證明喔其實是他們是沒有辦法去我認為這是用"},{"start":3631.109,"end":3658.864,"text":"行政手段要來達成政治目的的一個做法這個是不是再請次長你再解釋一下好不好我想跟委員報告我們跟陸委會是合作關係是沒有問題的並沒有所謂互相打臉的問題那我想回到只要你擔任國家的公職就不可以有你就不可以有中華民國以外的國籍我想這個在國籍法20條就講得很清楚我這邊再提醒次長一下其實大陸是就我了解是不允許雙重國籍所以他在台灣已經宣誓"},{"start":3659.574,"end":3686.39,"text":"用台灣的身份他是台灣的公民要來參選的話其實對外的宣示其實就已經有具有達到他放棄這個對岸的這個國籍的證明啦這本行的意見啦所以拜託市長這邊再想想看是不是針對我們自己的已經來到這麼久居住在台灣的這些陸配來去幫他們想想看有沒有方法可以來做解套好不好好謝謝"},{"start":3688.649,"end":3709.77,"text":"好謝謝我們感謝張志倫委員就是我們家徐益臻委員謝謝召委我們請內政部吳唐安次長及警政署張署長我們家張署長跟吳政事長"},{"start":3712.813,"end":3735.753,"text":"委員好政策好還有署長好請教一下政策跟那個署長就是根據警政署剛剛的報告就110年來全國治安滿意度的調查資料顯示民眾對住家跟社區的治安的滿意度高達九成以上那我想請教一下那針對全國治安的滿意度呢"},{"start":3737.267,"end":3758.01,"text":"跟委員報告全國的部分大概51%左右好像有很大的落差在你們的報告裡面好像也沒有呈現出來跟委員報告因為全國性的這個治安是全體性的那個感覺那現在就是說因為各縣市或者是各市區對於治安的感受的滿立度這個都是比較主觀的"},{"start":3758.911,"end":3775.741,"text":"主觀的狀況那全國性的這個情形有可能就是在調查的過程當中可能也會因為個案的狀況影響到全國的主觀意識的這種感受不過署長我們在做民調的時候基本上應該都要重視的是全國的這個民意的感受"},{"start":3776.181,"end":3794.955,"text":"尤其是我看到九成以上的治安滿意度我們可以看到我有做了一個統計表請書上看一下其中110年1月8號1到8月的68.73的滿意度之後呢到目前為止全部都是不及格尤其是今年的上半年的滿意度是51.32還比去年的113年下半年的51.90呢"},{"start":3800.326,"end":3809.413,"text":"還要低所以其實治安滿意度是下滑的而不是像我們現在報告所呈現出來的有九成以上的滿意度我覺得今天跟署長正次提到這樣的問題不是要去追究而是要看未來要怎麼來去解決這樣的問題那當然就是說為什麼會造成這樣的問題我覺得可能詐騙是佔了一個很大的部分因為其實我想我們一般民眾的感受度其實針對詐騙我相信在座的各位"},{"start":3827.327,"end":3848.626,"text":"不管是你本人你的親友其實面對詐騙的其實比比皆是我自己都常常接到詐騙期間的電話可是說實在連我們民意代表連我們立法委員都沒有辦法去杜絕這樣的狀況更何況一般的這個我們的百姓所以你可以看到光今年度的1到9月份我們的詐騙的這個案件數呢已經高達134,716件財損的金額到706億"},{"start":3854.619,"end":3857.911,"text":"那請問一下署長針對這樣的打造的成果您覺得滿意嗎"},{"start":3859.673,"end":3881.827,"text":"那當然不是說完全滿例那也跟委員報告就是說從去年到現在的狀況那這個趨勢我們每日都有公佈儀表板這個趨勢是在往下降的往下降是降多少是在往下降的那以這個來講的話就是說目前大概件數大概降22%財損是在降差不多44%左右也就是說簡單的道理簡單的道理就是說譬如講像去年的這個"},{"start":3887.891,"end":3895.854,"text":"8月他每天大概是在700多件的一個詐騙件數大概4點多億那現在大概是400多件2億左右不過署長以這樣的一個趨勢可能我們現在對這種詐騙案件的這種統計跟破案率可能我們自己給的太寬鬆了"},{"start":3909.107,"end":3933.768,"text":"因為其實民眾的對詐騙的感受其實是非常深惡痛絕而且都覺得即使被詐騙了就算破案了錢也追不回來這個是通通目前大家大概普遍的感受那現在我們很多這個努力的方向就是說有時候類似這個詐騙的這個被案人的反環有一些就是銀行的或者是虛擬貨幣的這個部分如果是圈存的很快就會最反環那反環的比例呢"},{"start":3937.551,"end":3944.574,"text":"比例當然不是很高但是反而比例很大等於說我們詐騙的我們詐騙的案件就算是破案那其實對民眾最在乎的是我能不能拿回我被詐騙的金額那破案的這個部分當然這個不是只有警政署內政部還有先生到警管會還有訴發部相關的這個問題但是我覺得應該是要跨部會的去整合把這個問題解決那當然我想剛剛講到這個詐騙案件你知道嗎"},{"start":3964.284,"end":3973.791,"text":"就今年五月賴總統上任一周年的時候的民調顯示民眾對於政府打詐的表現不滿不滿意度高達53%所以也就是因為詐騙案件的關係讓賴總統的不滿意度這個針對這個打詐的不滿意度高達53%那我們今年編了這麼多打詐的預算打詐的經費其實就希望能夠針對打詐的部分我們要有所"},{"start":3989.566,"end":4008.87,"text":"這個成績出來那我想還有今年還有四個月的時間希望警政署針對這個部分要好好的來去針對詐騙的部分我們要怎麼去整合各部會大家共同來努力讓民眾有感讓民眾真正的免於這個詐騙的一個威脅那尤其是我想最近大家大概非常"},{"start":4009.472,"end":4028.239,"text":"覺得震驚的就是我們在台北車站的光天化日之下居然有被性侵這樣子的一個的問題產生所以大家都在講以前觀光客來到台灣覺得最滿意的就是台灣的安全大家覺得台灣是一個非常安全的地方結果我們居然是在台北車站的這個大廳裡面居然"},{"start":4031.46,"end":4035.083,"text":"被公然性侵我們的馬籍的遊客而且是10分鐘居然沒有人發現所以到底是哪個環節出了問題然後我們現在台北車站長期這個存在的聚眾飲酒滋擾還有脫序的行為請問一下台鐵跟鐵路警察之間的通報跟處理的機制是什麼"},{"start":4050.626,"end":4068.044,"text":"好那现在分做两个部分第一个部分就是说铁路警察跟台铁的战方跟这个保全这个三方面是要去做这个相关的一个联系显然是没有嘛显然是没有那未来要怎么做那现在就是要再增加密度了"},{"start":4068.524,"end":4070.627,"text":"十分鐘欸如果今天到一個這麼重要的一個台北火車站的一個大廳喔居然被公然性侵然後十分鐘沒有人有任何的這個反應我覺得這個發生了很大的問題所以可能針對這個部分請署長一定要"},{"start":4086.638,"end":4114.473,"text":"去严格的去追究相关的责任而且重点是要怎么预防未来的发生那当然就是还有刚讲的这个聚众饮酒的问题也确实存在的问题尤其是这一件并不是街友而是一个通气犯那通气犯居然可以在这么这么重要的一个地方来做这样的事情我觉得他就是挑战我们的挑战公然挑战我们的公权力这个我们以后会加强来做请署长要针对这个部分一定要把这个相关的一个"},{"start":4114.915,"end":4127.101,"text":"未來要怎麼來去做的一個相關處置一定要做出一個報告那也希望一週之內送到本席的辦公室好的 沒有問題謝謝我們感謝徐議貞委員質詢我們請張鋒祿委員質詢在這我要跟署長說因為剛才徐議貞說這件事這等久以來有一個盲點就是"},{"start":4138.707,"end":4163.208,"text":"我如果要坐高鐵回家如果時間充足的時候我會去電館洗所以你們這可能要跟當地的政府單位社會主委因為雖然是通緝犯發生的但是白色在那裡走常常吵吵鬧鬧喝小酒在那裡亂大家看到的動作是"},{"start":4165.65,"end":4181.774,"text":"他們在那裡流浪汗,在那裡玩傢伙所以喪失這個機會讓我們說實在的,我們現在民主不知道要去哪裡全世界會臭爛所以不是跟你們一起,大家要合作可以讓台灣的名聲,不可以這樣這樣實在很難看,醫生不好意思,我們請張鴻祿委員我請署長請署長"},{"start":4195.615,"end":4220.229,"text":"委員好 署長我們現在看到你們電視這個防炸的你們有聽從我們的建議我記得那時候要求你們要用實例現在都用實際的例子了我想請問一下對於毒品有沒有可能比照這樣子處理"},{"start":4220.902,"end":4244.725,"text":"可以啊 没问题我们毒品的这个如果说是是用毒品所造成的危害或者是被害那我们也可以用实例来做一个宣导来做这样的一个宣导那因为诈骗因为我们民众在最后这一讯息有一些如果说要叫他看文字图片可能他就给你翻页了"},{"start":4245.342,"end":4264.86,"text":"那实例的话民众的这个第一时间的这个感受跟各方面都会比较深刻未来我们也会朝这样来做那我们想就是明年度我们还会用VR的这种情境式的来做一个实例的一个宣导也就是说情境式的"},{"start":4265.481,"end":4279.966,"text":"我們會來再做更加的精進我跟你講啦VR不是不好啦但多少人能夠去體驗你就像現在電視廣播你們現在防炸的這樣做大家都知道都看得懂是我覺得錢要花在刀口上"},{"start":4280.866,"end":4302.792,"text":"先來做這裡啦所以要問一部分今年度我們發最大的這個宣導就是在電視廣播或者是網路平台啦我先問你的是說在毒品的方面未來你要不要這樣比照啦我們可以來做這樣的一個語錄可以好啦那我們就拭目以待啦另外啊署長"},{"start":4303.832,"end":4332.394,"text":"我不知道你知不知道像我們現在這個濾烈烯等等這個危害台灣很嚴重那我們這些在打濾烈烯的這些空氣槍你知道這個都是國外進來的還是台灣製造的這些槍是不是像烈槍有管制"},{"start":4333.228,"end":4346.169,"text":"有 這個是有管制的如果說這個類槍是屬於空氣槍是有殺傷力這個是有管制的好 有管制嘛好 那有管制的這些都是進口的還是台灣的"},{"start":4348.325,"end":4375.758,"text":"應該大部分都是進口進來的管制的大概都進口進來國內不能做自己製造製造這個空氣槍國內為什麼不能製造國內是可以製造只是膠耳素的對啦就是說對啦就是說這個膠耳素有沒有達到殺傷力的一個結果對啦那既然它是管制的對不對不是一般人可以拿的吧對不對對好那如果不是一般人可以拿的為什麼一定要進口"},{"start":4378.638,"end":4398.908,"text":"那國內的這個部位是不是請我們那個主管機關來做一個說明委員好跟委員報告因為我們目前的法令規定也是政策規定就是國內的空氣槍的製造它是可以這個都知道的不要浪費時間它可以製造零組件外銷但是不能在國內完整的一支槍在國內販售"},{"start":4400.461,"end":4418.201,"text":"我知道所以現在喔法令是這樣對不對那我們這些喔打濾類系的什麼這些啊那你知道現在都是哪一個國家的目前濾類系的不是林保署我知道是林保署的啊既然有管制啊對不對都是哪個國家的你知道嗎"},{"start":4420.064,"end":4438.555,"text":"槍支喔 大部分都從國外進口但我們沒有去限制他國家我問你啊 實際上是哪個國家大概他們有的是從以色列或者是美國都有你亂講 你去查一下吧打綠列西的這些幾乎都是從中國進口的比較多吧"},{"start":4440.361,"end":4463.933,"text":"林務局的目前他們都使用就是他有申請核准的是空氣影響跟生存安全你要想清楚你才回答喔幾乎很多都是從中國耶你知道嗎 這我們了解好不好這我們委員我們來了解對嘛 你要想清楚再回答在這裡你這樣給我隨便回答我們來了解實際進口的我只有一個"},{"start":4467.731,"end":4483.337,"text":"你既然這個是要從國外進口這怎麼有殺傷力的那你如果造成這樣子全部都是中國進口你覺得這樣子合理嗎對我們的敵對勢力然後你用他們的槍這樣子合理嗎這不可以 不可以"},{"start":4484.471,"end":4511.226,"text":"不要說可不可以啦法令上現在是可以嘛但我認為是不合理的嘛對不對所以署長這個問題你回去你們要好好跟林務局要好好的研究因為槍支的管制是我們這邊槍支的管制是我們警政局這邊那你們這個管制我也不認為不合理對於國民的安全是應該合理的要去做這些管制但既然這個獵槍"},{"start":4512.64,"end":4530.329,"text":"是有管制的本來就要登記的了對不對對嘛不是一般人可以有的對嘛那既然這麼重要的東西如果變成都敵對國家的進口這樣子我認為對國安國家的安全我覺得有很大的影響"},{"start":4532.01,"end":4540.418,"text":"這個部分我們會來研議跟研究來怎麼樣做怎麼樣比較妥當世界的一個處理好 那給你們時間去處理 好不好好 謝謝謝謝我們感謝張宏祿委員我們請麥正委員質詢"},{"start":4561.8,"end":4565.828,"text":"謝謝主席有請署長加署長委員好"},{"start":4572.102,"end":4588.548,"text":"署長好再請教你一下在台灣失聯移工目前已經超過8萬人警政署統計包含失聯移工在內從2013年有1174件到2022年已達到4160件10年來增加超過3倍"},{"start":4601.992,"end":4604.435,"text":"涉案移工累積總共就是超過2萬人雖然法律刑責已經加重台灣本國籍犯罪者為了避免這個風險"},{"start":4615.205,"end":4633.254,"text":"已逐漸不再親自涉案而是改為招募外籍人士來替他們執行高風險的任務這種狀況實質上已形成一種台籍犯罪的代理者承擔風險警政署是不是已經掌握這種"},{"start":4634.395,"end":4644.715,"text":"代理型的犯罪的歧視還有沒有具體的防堵的策略防止就是犯罪集團利用外籍人士成為"},{"start":4646.124,"end":4674.361,"text":"替罪工具對於幕後的本土主謀有沒有專案偵辦與數據的掌握這不只是治安的問題更是司法與人權保障的漏洞署長可以有這個數據委員講得很有道理就是對於是不是在國內有沒有這一些操縱者或者甚至跟國外的這一些的操縱者去對接對於外籍移工"},{"start":4674.901,"end":4699.85,"text":"到臺灣的從事各類型的犯罪那這個部分是我們這個對於外籍人士在臺灣犯罪我們是作為偵辦的一個重點那我們尤其這個犯罪案例裡面特別我們現在可以明顯的就是外籍的在臺灣從事詐欺的這個狀況那甚至去做這一些的盜領盜伐林牧我們發現現在這兩個趨勢是最比較明顯的"},{"start":4703.391,"end":4718.845,"text":"那我們現在也是朝台灣在籍的這些是不是有操縱者的這個集團來做一個偵查那我們也有這個偵查到的這些相關的案例如果委員我們事後再提供給委員來做一個參考好"},{"start":4722.488,"end":4742.154,"text":"這個是我們其實就是要抓頭啦 這個委員的論調是對的就是頭誰在操縱這些外籍移工 沒錯 沒錯不管是台灣的這個操縱者或是國外的操縱者 是這個都是一個源頭 那也是我們偵查的最主要的一個重點那我們這個偵查的這個狀況的這個目前的這個結果我們是不是會有給委員來做一個參考"},{"start":4747.876,"end":4771.741,"text":"麻煩你但是我最近也收到很多就是說關於這一塊所以你們也有真的是來去做但是你們只要懷疑餘力這個帳戶就很多新住民的帳戶他們就被凍結凍了半年一年但是完全也沒有警察來找他們去做筆錄沒有他們全部凍結"},{"start":4772.665,"end":4795.935,"text":"所以我現在最近有收到是這樣子所以我希望的是說你們要去抓但是抓頭但是不能說餘力因為我們現在就覺得移工啊這些他們就會有犯罪的嫌疑你們就凍結他們的賬戶但是這個是不是數據你們真真的要去找出來這個部分我們要要求的"},{"start":4796.277,"end":4815.51,"text":"好第二個就是說在請教你因為現在很多新住民移工他們的語言不通所以資訊也不足所以根本沒有了解台灣的法律還有刑者所以結果犯罪集團就利用又當他們就是資訊的中介或者是傳遞一些資訊不足網路用跨境的網路你剛才有講"},{"start":4823.915,"end":4834.568,"text":"所以我們目前有沒有針對這種就是利用的風險剛才我也問你但是你說有數據但是說我們希望的是說建立防堵的機制還有具體的預防這樣子的話才真正的達到這個目標"},{"start":4841.294,"end":4862.948,"text":"好跟委員報告就是對於這個外籍工因為有各國的外籍工因為語言的問題我們也大概就是會把這些這個法律的這些相關的這個規定也有透過這些相關的移工的還有這些的團體或者是仲介公司的這些團體來做一個來做一個宣導跟施教那我想這個部分就是說有具體還是說請大家就是做一個宣傳還是說只是說就是發一個傳單"},{"start":4872.174,"end":4894.642,"text":"風險的教育還有說警示的宣傳不能只是一個傳單中文的傳單這個部分大概不是只有透過檢證包括移民署的這些的相關的主管機關或勞動部的這些的相關機關對於這個外籍到台灣來工作的這些相關法律上的一個教育訓練跟宣導這個都會做"},{"start":4896.223,"end":4923.653,"text":"好所以我們希望就是不要再讓弱勢族群變成就是犯罪體系的替罪羊所以我們要請我們的署長跨部會的整個治安的方案不管是剛才你說的移民署勞動部警政署還是法務部我們要共同來去推共同來去看說法律的部分讓大家了解"},{"start":4924.133,"end":4953.443,"text":"因為現在犯罪集團用各種方式之前我有質詢你的時候我也說拜託你你看看這些數據都是你們說的都是這些人要怎麼樣去有這樣的的數據但是問題在我們看到就是警政署報告的時候在2024年12月我們中央警政署大學發表的一個研究新住民在台"},{"start":4954.179,"end":4978.871,"text":"收刑事及行政處罰的樣態預防政策的研究內容指出新住民涉及刑事案件時往往被社會貼標籤就是容易犯罪的標籤這種現象不僅是造成污名化也造成就是社會長期對新住民的"},{"start":4979.932,"end":5001.085,"text":"刻板印象所以目前社會輿論與媒體報導常就是說因為外籍移工犯罪的機率印象比較高所以放大這樣子的一個負面所以導致就是擴散所以我們希望說在這樣子的公布犯罪的數據時我們的署長一定要去謹慎還有發言的時候避免大眾就是產生這樣子的誤會"},{"start":5008.75,"end":5015.116,"text":"沒有問題所以因為我們看到的就是他很詳細就是從2007年我們的警察大學他看的超過200案件"},{"start":5027.307,"end":5053.565,"text":"好那再給我一分鐘所以我希望說就是說在在設這樣子的新住民的問題不會造成治安的問題但是呢在報導那中就說新住民犯罪多治安惡化的說法這個是無實際的基礎所以希望我們的署長有沒有要主動澄清因為我們看報告還有"},{"start":5055.966,"end":5072.527,"text":"澄清說我們要跟媒體公布我們就先到說這個我們要納入教育體系但是你們也不能說別人的報告的時候你們的報告就是移工新住民因為不懂所以造成治安的問題"},{"start":5073.257,"end":5098.114,"text":"但是台灣這邊有那麼多的數據對不對台灣本國人涉及公共危險罪高達五萬九千八百二十六件毒品犯罪案者有四萬七千五百二十件這些都不會成為本國的治安惡化嗎所以我希望我們的署長再回我你會不會對媒體就是要去"},{"start":5103.637,"end":5120.385,"text":"要去主動澄清說他們新住民不是因為新住民犯罪惡化成為我們的國家治安的問題委員我特別強調我們對於這些的犯罪你們不會標籤化我們絕對不會標籤化好最後就是做一個結論好我最後一個結論我已經兩分鐘了大家恭喜"},{"start":5132.492,"end":5139.34,"text":"OK OK 我們希望我們今天不是說誰講話大聲或者是說我們要執行我們是找出問題解決問題因為我們每一個人執行的時間我們執行的時間真的是有限但是我們希望是解決問題"},{"start":5152.015,"end":5173.31,"text":"我們希望我們署長要來一個明確還有是有規劃的一份資料給我可以嗎因為我們希望正常的解決問題犯罪集團利用新住民移工但是我們署長我一直強調你要有一個新住民防詐的"},{"start":5176.351,"end":5186.217,"text":"團隊來去解決問題真正採取的問題不是只是解決問題是解決問題好謝謝我們感謝麥委員執行我們現在李博義委員執行謝謝有請張署長現在署長委員好"},{"start":5203.685,"end":5223.824,"text":"謝謝署長 最近一件大事國民黨前副總統候選人出來開記者會指控中共借選通常選舉是這樣子我們有時候開完記者會不一定有報案請問署長這一件有沒有報案有報案 該不會是有受理件報案的內容是什麼"},{"start":5224.574,"end":5251.065,"text":"那報案內容就是說就是各位看到那個trade上面就是有那個候選人就跟一個親嘴的這種狀況那可能他不是用中共借選的名義就是有侵害到相關的其他的形式的這個犯罪但是沒有談到裡面的報案內容沒有談到借選的狀況但是署長這個你認為要不要報地檢署"},{"start":5251.99,"end":5265.904,"text":"這個一定要報地檢署因為他既然有報案那我們偵查完之後一定會報地檢署偵查的方向會不會有比如說這個案子裡面到底有多少境外假帳號或者是到底"},{"start":5266.474,"end":5286.787,"text":"製造了多少流量這些會不會有相關的報告出來那這些的部分應該是會會透過偵查來做一個了解這個有辦法偵查出來嗎我們會去做假帳號這個問題值得研究假帳號也是會去做去追會去追這個帳號的末路到底是怎樣那到底有多少個我覺得這個還是要"},{"start":5287.547,"end":5313.47,"text":"國民黨不好意思問我來問一下因為大家還是都會選舉都會遇到嘛委員這個部分應該是都會一起去做了解跟偵查對我覺得這個我希望警政署之後有這些相關偵查的報告可以公諸於國人要不然大家也不知道這些境外假帳號也不知道每天滑脆也不知道看臉書到底或者是這個抖音TikTok"},{"start":5313.991,"end":5340.878,"text":"到底吸收了多少這一些境外假帳號的資訊進來而這些境外假帳號的資訊訊息傳達給很多很多他們要傳達的這些訊息的內容有沒有實質影響到台灣的內政我覺得這個是值得去探討出來我們先不假設這個是誰做的但是我們先要知道有多少這個量我們再來看看是誰做的"},{"start":5341.24,"end":5358.969,"text":"好那如果說是已經有偵查的這個結果偵查的已經有結果不是偵查中央案件如果結果的話那如果公佈的話可以公佈我們就來公佈好謝謝署長我想不只國人想看更多國民黨的人更想看好署長我請問你喔六雄對嗎你有要跟嗎"},{"start":5362.708,"end":5383.007,"text":"我不曉得你也不曉得你有沒有被跟我不知道我有沒有被跟生活都很正常生活動作都很正常我不知道會不會被跟黃明昭黃明昭署長有被跟他自己本件事前他也不知道他也不知道當然不知道我們有多少署長有被跟我覺得這個是一個非常要不得的行為我覺得全國民眾都應該會透氣這一種"},{"start":5387.057,"end":5402.016,"text":"這個無目標式的這種跟監跟在我後面幾個就要來問你了沒有關係國安局有請警政署針對如果查如果有這些跟拍的行為做一個標準的作業那請問警政署接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":5404.178,"end":5423.472,"text":"這個對於尤其是中央的這一些的這個有我們安全維護的對象的我們是有一套的一個標準作為流程包括警衛人員目前所有警衛人員有沒有回報有可能有被跟監的有沒有回報目前是沒有"},{"start":5423.957,"end":5433.742,"text":"所以大家都沒發現嗎就是說目前因為這個因為有中央部會首長報案之後我們就啟動這個機制這個機制包括這個警衛的機制或者是作為的流程或者是反應或者是訓練警衛人員有沒有這個加強這些有加強訓練加強哪一些訓練我想我們也想了解一下"},{"start":5450.27,"end":5470.972,"text":"那當然就是說你比如檢驗檢驗員就是執行過程當中可能要上車下車周遭或者是有沒有這些追跟的這個車輛會去做注意那可能就是說這個車輛你可以從後面有沒有車輛在跟這樣的一個狀況的一個反應跟機制的一個處理"},{"start":5472.014,"end":5499.561,"text":"好 謝謝警政署也很辛苦包含我們其實對於毒品還有詐騙這些相關的社會關心的案件其實我們繼續保持高度的關注尤其是新興的毒品我想請問署長對於伊托米子這種非法的煙彈那我們這些盤查的過程有沒有增加一些什麼技巧也就是說現在吸電子煙的人太多了那我們怎麼樣去判斷或怎麼樣盤查"},{"start":5501.088,"end":5517.796,"text":"會不會要多了有哪一些偵辦的困難等等的那我想這個新興毒品這一通名詞甚至我們最近看到的可能有消劑蛋或者是那個塞拉禽的這個新興毒品那對於新興毒品我們第一時間發現是有那個試劑的"},{"start":5519.195,"end":5525.318,"text":"有試劑可以做檢測 檢測完之後那所以試劑在每一個巡邏員檢驗都會有都會發給這個試劑那依托民子從去年我們發現我們應該是已經發現從開始列管三級要進入到二級那最近我們發現大概還有兩種包括小雞蛋跟那個塞拉鳳最近的媒體大概也有提到這兩種目前這兩種現在我們現在正在正在這個關注是不是有沒有進入到台灣來"},{"start":5548.047,"end":5572.054,"text":"那這些都是化學成品的鎮定劑如果說是混合去稀釋它的毒性很強我覺得署長這個不用在這裡講但是就是說必須要加強宣導很多家長也都不知道那如果這些東西一旦進入校園的話我們一定是一定會掌握最新的一個狀況來做一個相關機關包括這一些的立法或者是取締的一個作為好 謝謝署長 謝謝"},{"start":5574.884,"end":5579.305,"text":"謝謝我們感謝李博義委員 我們請黃謙平 張偉質詢謝謝張偉 我們請我們警政署張署長我們請署長歡迎好 署長"},{"start":5600.396,"end":5621.481,"text":"市長今天那個專案報告內容有盤點了全國目前的這個治安的狀況我們警政署還特別強調這個打詐成效那根據我們這個警政署報告裡面指出詐欺犯罪仍然是目前高居台灣的犯罪首位像去年九月到今年八月我們全部刑署案件總共是147,900件其中我們詐欺案件占224,290件"},{"start":5627.827,"end":5649.824,"text":"它佔整體的刑事案件的將近35%比例相當高那根據這個全球防詐聯盟發布的今年的這個亞洲詐騙調查報告有72%的台灣民眾曾經遇過詐騙那其中有13%因為詐騙遭受到金錢的損失這個比例非常的高的可怕那根據這個數據 意思說有10個人 詐騙一段時間每接觸10個人就有可能有一個人會上當受騙難怪我們詐騙會越來越猖獗"},{"start":5656.38,"end":5672.441,"text":"那你在這份報告裡面也有特別提到台灣民眾最常遇到的詐騙說法像是購物啦 冒名啦 還是那個欺騙感情啦 這種的最多那其中這個60%的民眾遇過冒名的詐騙這個代表現在詐騙集團他不僅是亂槍打鳥"},{"start":5673.863,"end":5689.163,"text":"而且他也擅長利用人性的這個弱點讓民眾防不勝防這也是本席今天要跟蘇中討論的重點因為本席就是受害者我本身就遇到這件事情在今年七月的時候因為朋友的那個LINE的帳號被盜用"},{"start":5689.804,"end":5711.861,"text":"那這個盜用帳號是駭客以他的小朋友要參加比賽為理由那要求我們幫忙上網投票那寄的連結給我那想說我們這裡有實際的朋友 比較現場的就是孩子他做老伯 老母的 希望孩子比賽得獎我們就去盜三天因為這樣 操作之後整個帳號被盜用 甚至綁架我們完全沒有辦法登錄喔 完全沒有辦法登錄"},{"start":5712.611,"end":5727.445,"text":"那當之後他就開始用這個帳號寄給我所有LINE的好友那當時我只能做的就是說除了報案以外趕快就是在臉書上公告或用我自己的簡訊通知所有的好朋友還有就是發動我身邊的朋友趕快去檢舉這個帳號趕快讓他停權"},{"start":5733.902,"end":5752.455,"text":"這個過程裡面讓我發現一些很有趣的事情就是今天即便我本人被冒樣張我發現了我用很快的時間去檢舉那透過官方的方式去通報它的效率非常慢我這次的經驗是我今天通報到隔天中午原本的帳號才被停權你要想像這麼長的時間他透過這個時間去騙了多少的人"},{"start":5756.892,"end":5774.294,"text":"那如果我們身為立法院透過還有我們身邊這麼多人有經驗的人去檢舉都要花這麼長的時間才會下架那一般的民眾他大概用多長的時間甚至有些人可能他都不知道那我想這段時間就是阻止詐騙最好的黃金時期"},{"start":5774.955,"end":5796.655,"text":"我們盡快的讓這些盜用帳號停權它是不是就可以減少被有民眾被騙的這個機率 是不是這樣是 沒錯 所以如果說這一些不管是帳號訊息各方面的這些訊息那在這個主管的網路廣告平台這個第一個一定是要下降或停止解析對 但是時間太久 你一天沒有真的太久了"},{"start":5799.117,"end":5821.855,"text":"我跟委員部說 我們想要第一時間就去網路的主管機關停止解析那這個可能他們單位這個作業的這個流程我們這邊的速度一定是即時我們未來就是對於這些主管的網路廣告平台包括就是我們可能就是在這個打造的一個"},{"start":5822.895,"end":5845.547,"text":"團隊裡面會來做加強的一個要求對這個就是待會兒本席要跟署長討論到的建議我們在這一次注意到我們行政院卓院長在今年8月他的打詐專報告裡面有特別提到政府也要強化數位源頭的這個管理防制詐騙的資訊有三點嘛對不對第一個就是要發展AI人工智慧透過這個掃描平台啦社群平台主動判斷"},{"start":5846.187,"end":5869.075,"text":"是不是假帳號社群或粉絲團然後要求他停權關閉那第二個是要求相關業者建置這個防制的計畫在國內配置這個防防止詐騙的專責人員嘛那強化源頭的管理落實自律的機制第三個就是在網路詐騙通報的查詢欄裡面提供民眾即使可以追蹤可以回應的防詐工具這是我們"},{"start":5869.935,"end":5889.203,"text":"昨天講在我們這次八月份的早上幫我講的但本市坦白講本市在這次的新生經驗裡面還有許多民眾的反應來說效果真的很不明顯我當時我跟我身邊的朋友都填了這些資料了剩下剩下那填不下剩下剩蛋糧有無止境你不知道什麼時候才會停因為"},{"start":5890.57,"end":5919.91,"text":"我們其實都很相信第一線人員都很辛苦因為其實當時去保安巡我們也很辛苦可以處理這個但是我想這個還是要跟官方跟這個民間業者要密切的合作啦本市長今天建議的是以這個茂名章來說我們應該要求本國應該要求社群平台要為台灣提供一個民眾檢舉快速反應的明確的窗口像是AI或是人工客服都可以那透過像是實名制的這個認證的機制把它檢舉下架"},{"start":5921.531,"end":5929.316,"text":"讓被盜用者本人可以趕快加速檢舉這個檢舉的速度透過實名制讓這些假帳號經過那因為"},{"start":5931.827,"end":5950.881,"text":"對於這樣的這個冒名的假帳號 如果都交給警方來處理所以我相信我們第一手在這機場的警務人員都不用害他啦我覺得事實上不如讓我設一個反詐的一個這些受理的平台不是只有警方的165啦是 因為所以我 我的意思是說我們一報名之後 一定是到派出所 還是分出所去檢舉嘛"},{"start":5953.803,"end":5976.198,"text":"這個會增加我們基層員警很大很大的勤務他工作就很多所以本期是這樣的建議請署長是不是可以來跟來研議這樣子跟民間業者來討論就是說督促他們這些社群平台要有這樣的一個通報機制那這個部分署長覺得怎麼樣好那我們會協同主管機關的事務部共同來解決這個問題"},{"start":5977.824,"end":5990.924,"text":"好 謝謝署長 署長這個會後也希望檢證署針對我提出的這幾項建議盡速的跟臉書啊LINE啊等等這些平台來溝通在兩個禮拜內提供一份報告給本席的辦公室好 好 謝謝感謝署長 署長謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":5994.006,"end":6007.245,"text":"謝謝我們感謝黃建斌召委執行我們這裡五七名 五七名 五七名林祖英 林祖英 林祖英我們這裡黃國昌委員執行"},{"start":6016.38,"end":6024.188,"text":"謝謝主席 事實麻煩有請內政部的常識跟警政署的署長常識哥署長委員好"},{"start":6030.061,"end":6054.023,"text":"市長好跟署長好今天內政部提出來針對有關於避免境外的勢力包括了境外勢力可能包括敵對不敵對跟他的協力者會不會影響我們的國家安全我們的中央政府機關的首場這是一個非常嚴肅而重要的問題來第一個經濟部的部長跟AIT官員"},{"start":6055.339,"end":6082.266,"text":"他們在參會啊這很重要啊這是台美關係啊非常私密的聚會啊私密到安排到我們的經濟部部長郭志輝啊自己企業集團開的餐廳啊結果在餐敘的照片啊外面有一個狗仔集團啊在那邊拍啊全部都登在禁州刊啊我所掌握到的狀況那天就是禁州刊的狗仔集團在那邊跟啊"},{"start":6083.875,"end":6103.004,"text":"這件事情內政部跟國安局有沒有作為?內政部有沒有作為?這個事情有調查嗎?有還是沒有就好 今天我問題很多 時間很短有調查還是沒有調查 有沒有立案?有還是沒有?這個案目前還在偵查中所以有立案?對 有偵查中"},{"start":6104.153,"end":6129.058,"text":"是告發人是誰告訴人是有人告訴告發還是檢察官檢報分案那這個部分因為是偵查中的案件來跟委員報告沒有關係有立案就好有立案我一定會追結果那時候爛心的2019年啊跑到裡面的辦公室跟幾個台南的立委會面啊一樣被拍啊又是進週刊"},{"start":6131.33,"end":6140.217,"text":"總統候選人跟台南的立委碰面叫他挺他出來對抗蔡英文結果又是靖州刊跟拍這個事情有沒有立案調查"},{"start":6141.619,"end":6162.979,"text":"這個案目前沒有資料怎麼會沒有資料這公開的資訊拍成這個樣子我的意思就是這個案是目前我們沒有受理人家的這樣的報案對啊所以我就問你標準在哪裡那我今天公開報案今天我公開報案嘛那我們就受理對不對這才是要處理的事情啊"},{"start":6164.246,"end":6189.101,"text":"不是嗎 很嚴肅耶當初賴清德氣得不得了啊正告蔡英文啊 不要動用國家機器啊賴清德在講什麼 他不就在講這個嗎而且我為什麼說有海外資金這當然有海外資金啊我們現在的國安局 行政院發言人李慧芝 甚至包括劉四方部長都出來講這個海外資金我鐵證都貼出來啦"},{"start":6196.414,"end":6223.78,"text":"在外面有一個開賣群島的紙上公司欸匯了8億多給淨州刊欸這個是鐵打石的海外資金欸那這個紙上公司怎麼匯了2800多萬美金可以匯給淨州刊借款更有趣的是每一年借但是都不用還這貪圍官職啊哇 這個紙上公司真的是大發慈悲啊每一年借錢 每一年借 但都不用還"},{"start":6225.336,"end":6243.135,"text":"然後已經累積了新台幣8億多了這個有沒有去追查這才是海外資金嘛你要去看這個紙上公司的背後是不是有中共啊有沒有中資啊有沒有港資啊是不是紅色的力量把錢灌進去啊這個該不該查 來請署長"},{"start":6247.157,"end":6274.347,"text":"這個如果說是不是有沒有牽涉到這一些的中資港資的這種狀況那如果說有報案的立案我們就會立案來查這有人報案嗎目前沒有報案那一樣我今天公開今天公開告發我今天公開告發嘛這樣子就很清楚了嘛委員如果告發我們就來受理好來受理這一定要查啦太嚴重了這才是海外資金嘛那最後一個"},{"start":6275.478,"end":6295.857,"text":"你自己好像也是受害人嘛你跑去芳名館跟萬華芳名館的角頭黃清源跑去吃魚翅宴結果那個鏡頭也出來了嘛這個鏡頭出來以署長你的認知我知道啦你那時候解釋過因為你那時候是局長要升署長有人發黑函嘛"},{"start":6296.926,"end":6322.124,"text":"跟委員報告 這上次我已經解釋很清楚 是這個是一個情務上議員 我了解啦議員事件情務上的一個 我了解署長你不用擔心 那這個是臨時來而且是有報備的是是是 好署長你不用擔心這個鏡頭啊 來來來 署長請您看一下你常年擔任警察的鏡頭啊這個鏡頭是從什麼地方來的這個照片從什麼地方來的應該監視器應該監視器 誰可以掉監視器"},{"start":6325.143,"end":6346.223,"text":"誰可以調監視器 應該警察才能調監視器嘛我這樣講有沒有錯如果說 不知道 應該他因為這是業者啦 怎麼會出去了可能要調查對啊 這要調查啊 這很嚴肅啊如果有中共的境外勢力要影響我們中華民國警政署署長的人選"},{"start":6347.384,"end":6371.299,"text":"那境外的勢力去介入啊然後可以讓我們的警政系統把這個路邊的監視器的照片都搞出來給特定的媒體去爆料這不是路邊的啦這不是公家這是私人的那一樣嘛這餐廳的所以你要想你是不是被攝取啊人家找你去那邊吃飯然後餐廳的業者拍起來拍起來再把監視器的畫面提供給別人你有想過說你會被攝取嗎"},{"start":6373.39,"end":6388.827,"text":"我想都有可能 不要去假設這個啦對嘛 既然都有可能 不要去假設這個 這個要不要查你要不要查這個餐廳背後是不是有中共的資金這個就境外敵對勢力耶 針對你個人耶這很嚴重耶 這要不要查"},{"start":6389.778,"end":6416.397,"text":"好 署長好 這個我們來瞭解好 不用瞭解 一樣我今天公開告發這一定要查清楚啊誰這樣搞你背後是不是有中共唆使這件事情太嚴肅了啦因為我老實跟署長講啦這個畫面媒體出來以前就有人跟我檢舉了我看報導 我就想說奇怪我認識的張榮鑫不是這種人啊對 沒錯啦因為我在吹哨者協會的時候你有來找我嘛"},{"start":6417.037,"end":6433.211,"text":"那是為了調查88會館的事情嗎因為政府提供這個訊息對啊希望我提供資料給你們嘛是依照我提供的資料你們警戒裡面也做了處分嘛對所以對嘛做民政的這個調查啊對啊所以是你因為跟我合作所以被盯上嗎"},{"start":6434.372,"end":6453.068,"text":"你尷尬啊 不能這樣假設沒有沒有 我跟你講現在媒體說故事的程度齁已經到了什麼故事都可以講了不要 不要在臆測這種事情你講得非常的好啊現在就一天到晚的綠媒在臆測這些事嘛所以很重要我幫你報不平我告發 查清楚"},{"start":6454.249,"end":6458.653,"text":"誰洩漏出去的 糾亂到底 這樣好不好好 謝謝不好意思 請洪孟愷委員質詢來 主席謝謝 麻煩請署長請署長"},{"start":6485.924,"end":6513.364,"text":"来署长好署长今天感谢赵伟这边排这相关的一个专题报告那本席也想了解我开宗明义自始至终我们都很支持基层的公务同仁因为基层的警察同仁非常辛苦尤其是现在不管是诈骗不管是任何的这些大小事都要我们第一线的员警来做处理非常辛苦不容易但该讨论的事项还是要讨论我先请教一下刑法135条指的是什么"},{"start":6514.468,"end":6523.36,"text":"134應該那個散貨散貨罪就是就是散貨人家犯罪散貨應該確定散貨罪嗎是嗎是妨礙公務吧136條散貨他人犯罪好136條"},{"start":6533.461,"end":6545.307,"text":"你也不清楚嘛 對署長在第一時間面臨到即便是你學有專精即便是那麼了解 刑法136條也不清楚是聚眾啊 聚眾三人以上妨礙公務啊138條咧這個可能要再看一下140條141條署長都不清楚那署長為什麼會請教這個問題不用現在再看了啦來啦為什麼會請教這個問題"},{"start":6560.796,"end":6578.55,"text":"看到一名員警在高雄的時候因為總統車隊經過員警過來對單一男子喔他是單一個人喔我們看到畫面單一個人嘛員警過來講說執勤公務啊按照法條刑法135條138條140條141條妨礙社會秩序執勤特種勤務你拍特勤就是違法請教違哪一條法例"},{"start":6588.12,"end":6588.56,"text":"現在不是說你頒法條出來唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷唷"},{"start":6618.305,"end":6630.792,"text":"總統的或副總統維安是依照特勤中心特勤這個條例總統有特殊的規格維安我不反對因為國安規格就是國安規格那是有特勤條例特勤條例裡面會去公告特勤條例的第十二條是對於公告的這些相關可能造成維安的狀況會去做一些盤查的一些相關的前面作為沒有問題盤查的相關的特別但我先請教"},{"start":6646.72,"end":6664.353,"text":"遠景到恐嚇一般的老百姓不能恐嚇沒有恐嚇老百姓他拿出這些條例有哪一條是符合第一您剛也不清楚說這條例內容一時間你被問到也不清楚即便是我們警政署長被問到也不清楚我應該是要跟他講說這第幾條是什麼樣的一個罪名有沒有符合聚眾三人136條聚眾三人對不對看到只有一個人"},{"start":6673.854,"end":6689.746,"text":"然後他搬出136條聚眾三人什麼意思那我想跟委員報告如果員警有這些使用這些錯誤的作用我們會去做一個再教育現在署長改口說員警使用錯誤的條例因為那個盤炒我現在講的是盤炒的這個作為啦138條是什麼你不知道嗎138條是毀損公務員的文書"},{"start":6700.427,"end":6727.915,"text":"是公務員如果說有任何文書你去把他毀損139 140條是什麼是侮辱公務員141條是什麼是執勤的時候侮辱公務員那這一個民眾他拿手機出來拍維安車隊你可以用其他的條文如果說符合我現在講的是說國家有國家的法令總統有國安的高規格的維安我不反對"},{"start":6728.835,"end":6756.292,"text":"但是你如果拿錯誤的法條故意要來恐嚇民眾我沒有辦法接受啊員警如果執行了這些的這個相關的疏失我們會再去做教育那這個是適用特警條例的規範來做盤查特警條例有告訴員警說你可以拿不對法條只要唸出來不能講說要不同的法條沒有講那個特別法條就是依照特警條例來做一個盤查署長署長我們現在人武分局改口啊"},{"start":6757.152,"end":6777.497,"text":"說這是善意提醒為什麼要改口這個我想就是說你署長又講的那麼義正嚴實說這是違安那現在又說改口誰說得算員警的這個部分他個人的一個相關的工作上的這一些這個疏失或者是這一些不是不對的我們會去做教育"},{"start":6781.238,"end":6796.285,"text":"那這個以這個案來講這個是依照特權條例的規範來做一個盤查特權條例第12條那本來特權條例第二就是有規範的這個路段跟路口對於這個造成總統維安的各種狀況那總統維安一定要達到萬全啊可能就是他在那邊做什麼動作你沒有去瞭解你沒有辦法自圓其說啦我只講兩點第一"},{"start":6806.328,"end":6834.69,"text":"總統有違安高規格本席不反對任何人都有機會當總統當了總統就中華民國的代表就應該有違安高規格但是絕對不是無限上綱更不是一個員警可以拿錯誤的法條來去恐嚇人民第一他明明執勤的時候就使用錯誤法條第二如果說你剛剛講你用錯誤法條然後你要員警再教育的話那要一體試用啊要講清楚啊不能一人涉事啊不能一人涉事啊"},{"start":6836.281,"end":6845.656,"text":"辦藍不辦綠是過去大家看到覺得最荒謬的事情不要讓民眾覺得現在是台灣是法治的社會警察的警察國家絕對不會"},{"start":6848.3,"end":6873.55,"text":"署長一定是依法錯誤的法條不要濫用你剛已經講了人物分局也改口了我想這件事情影片我不知道你有沒有看過有看過有看過那你就更清楚明白本席的強調的重點不是拿法條出來背幾條就可以恐嚇人民的連署長被問到的時候都不知道那法條內容的時候我不知道一般的民眾怎麼樣能夠"},{"start":6876.545,"end":6902.425,"text":"幸福警察的執勤謝謝我們感謝侯孟愷委員執勤我們家吳宗憲委員執勤謝謝主席我們麻煩請國安局還有警政署國安局警政署委員好"},{"start":6903.935,"end":6930.185,"text":"兩位長我主要是看到你們所提出來的一些報告我主要是針對一個資料庫的部分想要進行了解就是國家安全國安的部分其實我們絕對是贊成而且非常的支持一定要維護我們國家安全以及我國元首的安全這我絕對支持但是執行要符合比例原則要符合法律的規定不要把國安這個東西變成是無限上綱上方保健 愛砍誰就砍誰"},{"start":6931.738,"end":6958.019,"text":"那我想請問一下那這次國安局的報告裡面有提到說對於政治極端主義有暴露傾向的行為要建置資料庫那我想請問一下這個資料庫這個法律的授權是哪裡來可不可以請你說明一下報告委員我們是針對這些有治安顧慮的人口不是不要跟我講這個我國做什麼事情要法律授權請問一下法律授權哪裡哪一條法律授權你們做這個資料庫"},{"start":6960.421,"end":6977.524,"text":"好 那沒關係你講不出來就算了我還是跟你講111年現判13號健保資料庫他曾經大法官有做出一個資料庫要建制一定要有法律上的標準那他當時要知道收集對象是誰目的是什麼要件是什麼保存期限等等甚至"},{"start":6978.485,"end":6993.085,"text":"收集得的資料的監督機制這個都非常重要我們不能讓你這個建制的這個資料庫變成是黑名單用我們以前為了廢除刑法100條我們希望海外的流亡份子可以回到"},{"start":6993.806,"end":7021.758,"text":"他們認為的黑名單可以回到台灣我們做了多少努力當年我還是學生的時候就今天我們要越走越回去嗎還要由國家來建置一個資料庫來去把哪一些人他覺得有問題把他列出黑名單你要這麼做我沒有意見但是必須要法律授權請你們記得這件事情不能用國家安全這件或元首為安就什麼想做什麼都做什麼如果啊你像你第一個你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼再來"},{"start":7023.774,"end":7053.063,"text":"他的資料庫收集之後怎麼用目的是什麼對象是誰如果你們搞不清楚你們去問一下那個政委好不好林明星政委他對這一塊比較熟啦你去問一下不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫這已經完全不像台灣已經不像法治國家變警察國家這是不應該的那可不可以請你們把有關這個部分能夠一份報告來給我們說清楚"},{"start":7053.601,"end":7083.07,"text":"你們收集資料庫的目的對象要件保存的方式以及監督的單位是哪一些要跟我說清楚好不好這個很重要如果沒有你根本就違法那再來今天這個我本來想問你們幾個問題但是因為你可能連那個法律授權都不清楚所以問這個可能也可能你也答不出來啦但是我想你那整個制定的要點還有SOP都要給我一份你們怎麼做由誰做哪一個單位做都要給我一份"},{"start":7083.82,"end":7100.974,"text":"好那我再問你們一下就是我直接跟你們講啦這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關第一個就是資料庫會不會變成黑名單這個很重要你不能 組長不要跟我說不會啦"},{"start":7103.025,"end":7125.256,"text":"現在國家在幹什麼我們不是不懂我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化因為人治的地方一定會產生風險我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念所以他才壯大也是為了民主嘛那我們不能讓國家走回回頭路我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來鉗制人民的思想所以"},{"start":7126.977,"end":7150.528,"text":"第一個只要你們的邊界不清楚SOP不清楚人民都會被擔心列入黑名單再來就是你網路跟資料你怎麼收集因為我們台灣之所以讓中國大會的人很羨慕是因為我們有非常自由的一些言論我們在網路上面也很自由那你今天你要返回去走你是不是就應該要自我控制好"},{"start":7151.584,"end":7168.657,"text":"我講啦你會不會到最後變成只要賴清德三個字你就跳回名單出來我是擔心這個點還有一個我在談之前有人寫了一個陳菊走了嗎那後來就被查辦嗎請問一下員警查辦是不是有法律依據"},{"start":7170.82,"end":7184.89,"text":"這個部分就是是不是善惑犯罪的這個狀況不是 陳菊走了嘛跟善惑犯罪有什麼關係就是說她的這個散佈的這個訊息是不是正確 我跟你講啦就是說她是不是一個假的跟惡的跟害的這個狀況"},{"start":7185.831,"end":7213.271,"text":"不是 到最後法院根本不支持你們所以你現在的說法完全不合理所以那個案件是去做了解調查了解到底有沒有這種背後是什麼樣的我跟你講 人民不一定能接受這樣好不好就像反滲透法大量的人被用反滲透法查辦但是目前起訴的件數很少判有罪的更低到現在只有事件判有罪都還沒有確定但是大量的不起訴牽結"},{"start":7214.792,"end":7241.939,"text":"這個對人民就是老民這對人民很多人會覺得這就是政治的無端受政治牽連政治攻擊所以這個不是在保護執政黨這反而害了執政黨讓執政黨背黑鍋所以你是偵查機關你們不能做這種事情因為國安是要保護人民不是防備人民那不要讓保護變成是監控人民那人民以為保護我人安全就壞了我每天都活在恐懼之中這部分麻煩你們要注意千萬不要"},{"start":7242.628,"end":7262.57,"text":"拿國安相關的法令來VVIP的對付人民不要把人民當作是犯罪者來對付我們保障國家安全我絕對支持強化國防我也絕對支持但是不能拿這個當理由不然最後我說啦不要讓關鍵字的搜尋變成無辜人民的手銬不要讓資料庫變黑名單"},{"start":7266.464,"end":7291.95,"text":"兩個機關貴機關你們是圓釘圓釘在修剪花草的時候只是把花園裡面的害草那個有不好的草不漂亮的草我們把它剪掉你不能把自己變成除草機整個推過去好的壞的一起砍掉國家安全很重要但是請注意我們人民的權利很重要要有法律授權那請你們一個月內把這個資料給我那我在這邊有一個三大要求在PPT上面"},{"start":7292.386,"end":7308.156,"text":"一個月內能夠把這個資料回覆給我好不好好謝謝主席 不好意思感謝吳宗憲委員執行我們蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們習新穎委員執行"},{"start":7320.911,"end":7345.748,"text":"謝謝主席本席想請內政部吳長賜我們警政署張署長還有法務部的代表我們今天法務部次長沒來好法務部那個市長今天的感謝主席今天的題目很好那要要求我們現在全國的治安狀況我也看到這個"},{"start":7348.632,"end":7365.88,"text":"这是内政部的报告里面也写到当前全国治安状况客观数据显示最严重的还是诈欺犯罪那当然也讲到说要持续的强化打诈扫黑弃毒跟肃枪"},{"start":7366.9,"end":7384.567,"text":"那本席今天就打詐要特別來詢問首先我想請教一下次長署長還有司長最近美國司法部和財政部最近重拳出擊破獲了太子控股集團這個跨國的詐騙組織美國制裁名單中我們赫然發現"},{"start":7392.39,"end":7409.507,"text":"在146個實體和個人目標就是說他查獲了這麼多有三名台灣人有九家台灣的公司我想首先請問我們台灣在這起國際掃蕩中究竟扮演什麼角色"},{"start":7410.663,"end":7436.19,"text":"你们是我们是事前参与的合作伙伴还是事后才被美方告知的局外人请回答简单好委员那这个案件是行动是美国财政部还有法务部他们主动的对他们是主动我现在问的是我们有参与吗没有我们事后被告知好那事后被告知那我们到底掌握了多少"},{"start":7436.84,"end":7452.419,"text":"我們目前了解的就是這個太子的這個叫陳志大概111這個出入台灣是110年以前110年以後就沒有那現在可能對於這個公佈裡面的三個對象跟九個公司我們都有掌握"},{"start":7453.3,"end":7470.317,"text":"9個公司所以我們要講的是這9家涉案的台灣公司有8家登記在同一個地址這個地址大家很熟悉我們知名的歌手周杰倫他們家和平大院就有11戶他有11戶在這裡"},{"start":7472.879,"end":7484.723,"text":"一個沒有生產活動沒有營業額的空殼公司集團可以在台灣坐擁11戶的豪宅請問這麼明顯的洗錢特徵請問我們的警示系統在哪裡警政署法務部都沒有警覺嗎"},{"start":7492.694,"end":7517.75,"text":"因為這是110年前110年之前的所以你們的理由是這樣那我們就覺得難怪難怪台灣會成為詐騙集團的洗錢天堂我們這個詐騙的首腦他高調的炫富把豪宅當作什麼像我們在菜市場買菜一樣這樣在買結果我們完全沒有警示系統"},{"start":7518.888,"end":7528.015,"text":"那洗錢防治辦公室也完全不知不覺我不知道台灣的金融與商業監督是否形同虛設今天相關單位也沒來"},{"start":7529.53,"end":7549.006,"text":"那我接著問你們既然說那這是110年前我現在接著想問那現在太子集團首腦陳志你也知道這個人他在台灣的資產有9間公司11間豪宅你們打算怎麼處分這些不法資產"},{"start":7549.929,"end":7566.2,"text":"那跟委包這個案我們已經報請地檢署在做指揮懲辦當中那到底怎麼處置這些不法資產未來如果有涉嫌犯罪當然是會做查扣如果有涉嫌到犯罪所以你們到現在還認為他這11間豪宅這9間公司我們全國民眾都在想他能夠買這些豪宅"},{"start":7575.246,"end":7601.858,"text":"是不是都是这个诈骗我们台湾人的钱啊那我跟委员报告就是说那个要三十几亿的和平大院那我跟委员报告我们会跟美方联系到这个整个犯罪事证的连结如果说是属于涉案的所以你们是要乖乖等美国来处理不是要看事证连结啦事证连结有没有连结在一起还是你们在等诈骗集团他把房子卖了你们才要处理不会啦可能会做这个紧急的处分啦"},{"start":7603.123,"end":7626.071,"text":"你已经开始到现在我今天问你你可能会做紧急处分你们到底决定怎么样如果是我们会跟警方来做一个联系看怎么样做比较有没有掌握到台湾的被害人目前没有这么大的一个跨国犯罪组织目前还在查证当中就是要跟美方的讯息再做一个解决"},{"start":7627.508,"end":7650.402,"text":"我真的拜托因为他的那个整个的一个犯案的地方的一个地点应该都是在帛琉或者是其他那个国家那可能现在他我们了解一下以一个合法掩护非法的状况在做一个执行所以相关市政上我们还要去做市长还有署长还有我们法务部的代表市长"},{"start":7651.448,"end":7666.002,"text":"台灣進入超高齡化社會其實老人家他擔心什麼他擔心他晚年沒有錢但是台灣現在詐騙這麼嚴重很多都是退休人員或是年長者他被詐騙"},{"start":7666.923,"end":7681.971,"text":"我們今天看到這麼大的跨國集團台灣被查扣的目標數佔了整個的8%快要十分之一了它30幾個國家台灣就這個目標實體個人跟公司就佔了"},{"start":7683.972,"end":7710.002,"text":"那我们现在已经看到他这些资产我们还不积极的处理本席希望我们要把他这个不罚所得如果是对我们台湾人诈骗的所得要还给这些被诈骗的人你们朝这个方向来做可以吗这个可以如果说这个我们是朝这个最严厉的手段来做一个处理这些他们在台湾的资产要优先还给台湾的被害人"},{"start":7711.618,"end":7723.679,"text":"我們朝這個目標來努力所以我們希望署長還有次長我們台灣不應該是詐騙者的洗錢天堂它應該是犯罪者的墳墓"},{"start":7725.236,"end":7748.308,"text":"你們要朝這個方向還有我們現在都只會抓車手然後告訴我們說這個都抓到沒有錢的車手現在這麼大的我們抓到了這麼大的被查獲了所以我們希望我們整個打詐的KPI不是抓了多少的車手"},{"start":7749.424,"end":7775.109,"text":"是应该要看为被害人追回了多少钱这个是全民的期待可以吗可以加油我们也支持你们你们一定要强硬起来全力的为我们的民众追回这些他们被诈骗的钱也不只是这个案台湾太多了我相信部长还有署长都很清楚可以吗可以好谢谢加油"},{"start":7776.28,"end":7805.414,"text":"謝謝我們感謝市行委員執行我們請王煌威委員執行好謝謝主席我請我們警政署署長加署長好那我也請次長好了好委員好我們加常務次長好好次長好委員好"},{"start":7807.007,"end":7825.053,"text":"次长署长最近发生了几件让妇女安全大家感到非常忧心的事情一个是震惊全国世上在国际间也有很多报道的就是在我们的台北车站北车发生通缉犯的性侵案"},{"start":7826.333,"end":7849.986,"text":"另外它是比較地方性的就是在我們台北市的南京山明站有一個街友他直接企圖要性侵當時盜垃圾的一個女子我先講台北車站的部分當然台鐵跟鐵路警察局就有召開所謂的安全聯防會議"},{"start":7851.087,"end":7874.447,"text":"但是我想請問一下就是我們在北車的大廳當年曾經因為就是因為很多外籍移工在他放假的時候他坐在那邊他們聯誼那麼一度北車下了一個所謂的禁坐令覺得這樣子是有礙觀瞻但是引起台灣社會非常大的反彈"},{"start":7875.228,"end":7904.649,"text":"大家覺得我們應該對外籍移工外籍移工的文化更加的尊重那這個案子他發生的是他不是外籍移工都是來台灣來做這個旅遊的一位是香港旅遊一個呢就是馬來西亞的這個遊客看見然後去報案好那我要請問一下因為他在之前呢發生的在北車的時候呢"},{"start":7905.089,"end":7929.132,"text":"他們坐在那邊飲酒 喝酒那所以很多人覺得人來人往不覺得有什麼問題那當然就是說因為很多人就檢討說台灣不是最美的風景是人嗎怎麼大家好像視若無睹最後還是是一個馬來西亞籍的這個外籍旅客看到覺得不可思議 然後要求報案所以我想請教一下署長"},{"start":7930.653,"end":7950.902,"text":"針對北車我們尊重不定說一定不支持禁坐令但是坐在那邊飲酒就是聯誼這個部分可不可以考慮禁止因為我覺得即便是坐在那裡即便有座位然後在那邊變成是一個什麼好像應酬飲酒文化我認為對於一個公共的一個空間也是有一個商榷的遺地"},{"start":7959.085,"end":7975.508,"text":"所以我不曉得署長認為這樣子就是說還是可以坐下來沒有問題但是坐下來在那邊飲酒聊天然後嘻嘻哈啦那快出現這樣的事情大家就不以為意這個部分是不是有檢討的必要"},{"start":7976.141,"end":7988.916,"text":"各位委員報告我上個禮拜這裡也有談過台北車站是一個國際的一個交通運輸的樞紐也是公共場合空間我的看法是禁止在那邊飲酒作樂的"},{"start":7989.639,"end":8001.728,"text":"当然那个地方是禁止饮酒作乐也不是只有在那边造成这些相关的一个影响到旅客的这个进出所以这个应该是要由台北战方来禁止所以这个事件就是当时呢可能有巡逻"},{"start":8007.813,"end":8033.255,"text":"但是就在那邊飲酒可能也沒有去制止對不對所以未來這個部分是不是會嚴格去不只台北車站在我們一些重要的這些運輸的樞紐你或坐或者是坐在位子上或者是坐在地板上等等那我們過去比如說也有很多的人坐在地板上他充電或者是打電腦這個都不需要去禁止"},{"start":8034.015,"end":8050.581,"text":"但是不管你是你是你是坐在位置上或者坐在地上不可以飲酒作樂我想這個是主管機關鐵路的一個站方要來做這樣的公告那我們來做配合跟就你自然主案機關應該做強烈的建議啊我們會去建議強烈的建議在那個場所飲酒作樂這個一定會強力的因為"},{"start":8055.763,"end":8069.211,"text":"不好意思給我一點點時間還有這個南京三民戰之狼警察呢是確實立刻逮捕而且立刻移送但是呢法官竟然裁定吳保請回啊所以署長這樣的狀況會不會使得你們要去保護婦女安全或者是要這些強化這些打擊資安死角這樣的法官就是吳保請回就方會街頭了會不會造成你們執法的困擾"},{"start":8083.736,"end":8095.867,"text":"這個我們遺憾啦 如果這個是院方的這個處理啦那這個應該是跟人民的期待有距離有距離嘛 而且對你們執法來講其實是造成你們的困擾嘛他如果又發生同樣狀況那當然啦對不對我現在已經要求勞教我就要求管區趕快去加強巡邏"},{"start":8104.415,"end":8111.839,"text":"我覺得這個是要互相去做配合跟處理其實這個矽膠的還有一些相關的一個處置的一個是其實都可以處置結果你就把它全部這樣放回去好像沒事一樣所以這一點我覺得我們的這個警方我們內政部也要跟相關的這些單位我認為這樣的法官其實是違反我們社會的一個期待他最後就這樣直接無保就請回了就放回街頭上好不好"},{"start":8134.069,"end":8141.533,"text":"謝謝我們感謝王宏偉委員執行我們家徐富奎委員執行謝謝主席有請我們警政署張署長我們家署長委員好署長早安"},{"start":8162.026,"end":8186.762,"text":"我相信剛剛聽了很多委員都在質詢那我這邊也要幫我們基層的同仁來請命一下根據我們目前掌握到的狀況我們警政署因為我們目前面對這個打炸也好掃毒 掃黑氣毒跟速槍這都是我們很重要的一個治安的一個項目但是我們現有的缺額的部分截至目前為止我們的缺額"},{"start":8187.301,"end":8202.119,"text":"高達7,675人現在我們的同仁這個服務的範圍那麼廣大那加上我們相關的這個配備設備嚴重的不足甚至最近的新聞我們的同仁因為基層的這個基礎的這個裝備不足"},{"start":8205.038,"end":8211.483,"text":"他們回到重大性要處理這個犯人的時候還要先寫遺書啦 這種事情應該不會沒有這種事情不是沒有這種 這個應該是一個不實的一個訊息不會說像這種寫這個我們去了解沒有這種狀況"},{"start":8221.971,"end":8223.592,"text":"人力不足的部分我們一定是因為就是每年的這個容訓量比方像警裝跟警大一年合起來大概三千多人三千多人"},{"start":8241.039,"end":8254.804,"text":"那現在大概就是我們會根據這個退休的這種來做一個補助那我們可能未來就是對於這一些的一個場所的容訓量我們會加強來做一個思考"},{"start":8257.85,"end":8280.448,"text":"那第二部分就是說這個會各縣市的一個治安的狀況來做一個來做一個增補來做一個調配人力的調配未來十年有可能會有超過兩萬個同仁退休這個部分我們如果沒有提前那個部署這個人力不足加上訓練的問題我想未來對治安的疑慮我想也是百姓的恐懼"},{"start":8281.533,"end":8304.16,"text":"那剛剛我們有提到那個台北車站一個問題因為像我們屏東我們最近潮州火車站我也請我們的鐵路警察局幫忙設了一個巡邏站但是因為我們的同仁也跟我說他們的人員不足所以如果要定點夠點有派人在那有所困難但是我有要求一定要強化這個見景率的部分搭配我們周邊的"},{"start":8305.648,"end":8328.553,"text":"分住所這個提高這個巡邏的密度尤其陰暗的時候我們有一些上班族或學生陰暗落單走在那個地方很恐怖這部分有沒有強化有沒有辦法強化這個部分好那這個部分我們會要求就是包括也有三個方面不是只有警察的鐵路的警察包括台鐵的站方或保全甚至轄區的派手要去做一個聯訪的機制來做一個處理"},{"start":8331.053,"end":8346.611,"text":"那尤其就是說那個執行率也就是說那個地方是不是有那些這個可能造成這個危安的這個對象要去加強的清查跟跟管理啦就是這些人到底有沒有這些危害性"},{"start":8347.572,"end":8365.342,"text":"去做家長清查管理那也配合縣政府可以配合縣政府的社政的主管機關一起共同來根本來解決證比如想像比如像遊民那遊民可能要有一套的機制來解決包括縣市政府要一起來解決不是只有靠警方警方是只有這個"},{"start":8367.803,"end":8383.632,"text":"表面的去做盤查 去做清查 去做預防 去做阻止但是要徹底解決根本的問題還是要在社政單位來解決這個相關 比如像劉明的這個問題這個應該是縣市政府要來加強來做一個安置跟解決要跨部會來做一個解決 要跟地方來合作因為我們也希望把這個治安的死角能夠把它消除掉那署長 另外內政部上個禮拜有辦了一個"},{"start":8397.924,"end":8421.091,"text":"這個黑客松AI的競賽讓我們航空警察局獲得一個金牌金獎那透過這個AI的一個智能的危險物品辨識系統有獲得獎但是我們之前的這個設備也是不夠尤其那個車牌辨識系統所以沒有做到事情做到現在好像那個使用的偽造的狀況又更多了"},{"start":8422.446,"end":8447.777,"text":"我想不會偽造的狀況那對於車牌的辨識系統不管是在巡邏車跟汽車的對於這個這一些的安裝在這個上面去做巡邏裡面去辨識相關的一個這個偽造、變造車牌或者是世界車輛那這個我們目前是全面在做推動當中因為尤其我們整個很多人去請到廢棄物我們要透過結合我們的縣市政府要做這個軌跡辨識啦現在當地有一些不法之徒"},{"start":8451.078,"end":8458.343,"text":"會不會對廢棄物有毒的影響到我們的整個環保跟衛生的問題這方面應該要加強一下這個沒問題我們加強來處理好謝謝謝謝我們感謝徐副委員質詢吳立華委員吳立華吳立華"},{"start":8473.053,"end":8491.147,"text":"羅廷偉 羅廷偉 羅廷偉楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英蔡依儀 蔡依儀 蔡依儀鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌高津素美 高津素美 高津素美"},{"start":8492.934,"end":8519.221,"text":"蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠 蘇巧惠在長期發言的委員沒在採訪以外大家都看到完畢這項結束委員 中學中高精素美蘇巧惠吳啟明所提出的素面主行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":8520.841,"end":8540.765,"text":"書面諮詢及未答覆的部分將由相關單位一星期來依書面答覆及複製本會這個會議我們到現在結束現在散會感謝大家 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目前服務於東吳大學法學院擔任教職"},{"start":4179.546,"end":4200.135,"text":"主要講述憲法跟行政法相關的科目研究所以經濟公法的專題研究為主要的重心主要研究為經濟管制法跟公司協力還有行政合作法制目前同時也擔任三級獨立機關核能安全委員會的委員"},{"start":4201.537,"end":4218.951,"text":"並且參加許多中央跟地方政府的溯源救濟還有法規審議的工作那麼也很慶幸在2007年到2010年曾經擔任考試院工人員保障及培訓委員會專任委員的政務工作"},{"start":4220.134,"end":4241.937,"text":"那麼在2020年也獲司法院選任擔任懲戒法院職務法庭的第一屆的參審員實際參與法官在懲戒法庭職務法庭的司法審判工作不論在教學學術或者參與的政府跟司法工作都有極高的自主獨立性的特質"},{"start":4242.958,"end":4264.045,"text":"那今天非常的榮幸能有機會接受大院的審查並期盼能在未來的工作上於獨立機關中繼續貢獻自己在法律上的經驗以及專業我出生在嘉義一個單純的公教人員家庭家父幼年來台後來擔任國小的教職"},{"start":4265.339,"end":4285.237,"text":"我在嘉義完成高中的學業在大學畢業東吳大學法律系後來進入到中興法商完成了碩士學位並且進入博士課程後來就轉赴德國先後取得了比較法碩士以及法學博士的學位"},{"start":4286.238,"end":4309.521,"text":"那麼我在德國的博士論文研究的主題主要涉及到行政法上最核心的管制議題就是許可制跟特許制它所涉及到管制模型當中牽扯的基本權利的保障還有管制機關權限行使的界限等等的問題那在這個研究的基礎上後來也開展我自己在憲法基本權理論"},{"start":4311.351,"end":4334.518,"text":"以及經濟公法上管制理論的研究在經濟法上的管制理論從典型的強制規制到具有自主規制成分的規制到國家規制型的自我規制以至於純粹的私人的自我規制他所呈現出來各位目前所看到的法律他律自律的管制光譜"},{"start":4335.678,"end":4358.378,"text":"在廣電媒體跟網路領域當中也更加看到他論述的實用性特別是目前我們關於網際網路當中廣泛被運用的產業自主規制模式更是可見其重要性近20年前國家通訊傳播委員會設立之初是台灣獨立機關開始運作的嘗試時期"},{"start":4361.949,"end":4387.597,"text":"許多當時獨立機關的組織運作以及監督問題都有相當多的內外在挑戰而我也有幸在機關設立初期就以法律的專業參與了NCC訴願審議委員會擔任訴願審議的法律救濟工作對於國家通訊傳播委員會起步支出所面臨到的法治環境的挑戰身歷其境"},{"start":4389.352,"end":4407.14,"text":"如今隨著數位匯流時代的來臨傳統的電信廣播電視界線已日漸模糊通訊與媒體產業融合迅速產生許多新的服務型態對於通傳會來說無疑是一個更深層的監理體制的挑戰"},{"start":4408.28,"end":4423.177,"text":"我認為通常會在數位匯流時代他會面臨到幾個過去存在以及未來的關鍵挑戰我也期許未來可以有機會特別是在法治面向上可以有參與的機會"},{"start":4425.279,"end":4445.444,"text":"那首先我們可能面對到的最嚴厲的挑戰是既有管制法律的這個目前的規制所受到的一些外在的質疑特別是在黨政軍條款的裁罰對象上一直受到挑戰那麼在審照的程序上還有違規裁罰上雖然"},{"start":4447.785,"end":4457.221,"text":"NCC他有在管制上的裁量的蠻大的空間但是法律明確性的要求也受到外界的期待"},{"start":4458.817,"end":4481.62,"text":"另外在廣播電視法跟衛星廣播電視法目前規範所呈現出來的分歧現象也可能有需要做一致性處理的必要性另外有限電視業者在目前所遇到的嚴苛的管制以及面臨到產業生態的挑戰可能在管制的密度上也有鬆綁的一些呼聲"},{"start":4483.541,"end":4511.794,"text":"既有的傳統的法規目前可能已經沒有辦法涵蓋新型態的服務類型特別是針對跨平臺業者在既有的管制規範上面可能會出現一些管制的漏洞那麼會導致所謂的平臺無擇內容無控的現象因此我可以理解外界對於整併目前的電信傳播網路的新型態的規制的期待日益增高"},{"start":4512.774,"end":4524.899,"text":"那麼這裡的管制遇到的一些困境大家也都可以理解涉及到的是這個平台治理的邊界的模糊因為大部分的跨國平台他都不見得在台灣有弱點"},{"start":4526.497,"end":4542.932,"text":"導致我們在執法上面的困難那目前通常會擔任otttv的主政機關也逐步的在嘗試建構網際網路視聽服務的相關法制的建設那麼這裡面所遇到的"},{"start":4544.153,"end":4560.69,"text":"外界的這些挑戰或者是外界的這些建議目前還沒有辦法完成形成一個有共識的內容不過我想這個部分也會是未來我們要精進挑戰的地方"},{"start":4561.491,"end":4587.362,"text":"那另外呢在面對到氣候變遷資訊安全還有基礎關鍵基礎韌性的挑戰上面呢各位可以從最近的風災看得到有關基地台的架設以及對於高架空線設施抗風係數的這樣的一個增強呢對於我們的通信韌性的提升呢可能也是未來我們努力的地方"},{"start":4588.974,"end":4609.527,"text":"另外有關於重要的通訊基礎建設會受到攻擊癱瘓影響國安的問題意識也慢慢的增強因此在確保落實電信事業資通安全管理辦法的執行我想也是會以更重要的一個挑戰面對到AI技術應用的挑戰"},{"start":4610.928,"end":4635.147,"text":"為了鼓勵業者創新因此通常會也擬定了AI應用指引的治癒規範鼓勵業者跟工學會制定內部的規範另外NCC在賭詐的任務上應該也會持續統籌賭詐電信服務的任務持續推動防度境外詐騙來化攔阻惡意簡訊等措施來"},{"start":4640.3,"end":4665.55,"text":"阻擋這些所謂的網路詐欺的犯罪當然在建立媒體識讀的教育上面NCC應該也有相當重要的角色可以扮演本人期許未來有機會在這份廣受國人與社會期待的工作上在完善法規環境提升透明度跟公共參與的機制上致力建立更符合現代需求的法治基礎"},{"start":4666.77,"end":4695.013,"text":"提升社會對國家通訊傳播委員會的信任讓NCC成為全民的NCC力求在快速變遷的環境中守護民主的價值與言論自由 以上謝謝大家被提名人陳明修說明完畢現在請登記第一位本院委員吳佩奕委員發言"},{"start":4704.419,"end":4709.531,"text":"感謝主席 我有請被提名人陳明修博士請被提名人"},{"start":4719.784,"end":4744.49,"text":"陳博士好 這個你剛剛提到一句話我覺得相當認同NCC要做全民的NCC那雖然您現在是被提名尚未上任但是我就就最近國人也非常關心的一件事是就發生在我們周遭台北車站所發生的治安事件所引發的媒體事件來跟您請教討論就是呢上一週在台北車站那發生了很不幸"},{"start":4745.45,"end":4764.387,"text":"性侵案件那麼更不幸的是隨即我們看到竟然我們國內有媒體取得民眾拍攝的這個性侵過程的影像之後把它放到報導當中在全國國人可以看到電視台上面放送"},{"start":4766.638,"end":4781.113,"text":"居國嘩然那我請教陳博士根據我們現在既有的法規這個目前對於媒體報導裡面使用性侵害的過程的這個影像有沒有所規範"},{"start":4783.539,"end":4801.415,"text":"謝謝委員的指教目前我們至少例如在衛星廣播電視法的27條連結到他的裁判53條條款當中呢應該有相當明確的一些規範在我們的現行法當中可以運用是 我們現行衛星廣播電視法27條就是呢 針對國內的這些電視放送的內容"},{"start":4805.919,"end":4834.336,"text":"不得有下列情形之一這四款任一款發生都是禁止的第一項違反法律規定我們性侵害犯罪防治法就有規定有關於被害人我們要保護他資訊不得揭露所以這第一條其實就已經有法律在禁止這樣的行為第二條妨礙兒童或少年身心健康這一個新聞報導是任何一個年齡層都有機會可能會看到的"},{"start":4834.756,"end":4851.784,"text":"所以他潛在的就是有危害兒少身心健康的風險存在而且確實發生第三款妨害公共秩序或善良風俗我想這也不需要多加的說明所以呢據我所知我看到很多民眾說他們已經有上網向NCC檢舉希望NCC要來處理"},{"start":4854.585,"end":4879.301,"text":"因為按照限期法規如果違反剛講這四款其中之一的話這個罰則博士能不能說明一下NCC可以處怎麼樣的罰則我印象當中在53條當中它有連結一些裁罰的條款其中當然有一些程序上面譬如說要令其限期改正的一些措施這個在既有的裁罰的程序當中應該都存在有規範"},{"start":4880.382,"end":4899.925,"text":"但是可能我們更關心的是要即時下架或者即時的除去這些新影像那就這個部分目前在慰光法當中我們不是主要這個要求移除的對 這是慰福部的 慰福部也有所作為即時下架當然重要 也已經下架但是呢 該法要法"},{"start":4900.766,"end":4918.344,"text":"才會得到這一個懲戒的效果如果按照現行法規 因為其實他罰則不一啦 如果列舉我剛剛講 如果是二三款的話最重是可以罰到200萬最輕20萬以上這是以法規層面來說但是實務上我們現在NCC有沒有辦法來處理這個違規檢舉案就你的了解"},{"start":4922.718,"end":4942.139,"text":"委員講的是我們現在的委員的結構現在的NCC現在的委員結構嗎沒錯 我們現行的狀況有沒有辦法召開審議委員會來審查審議這樣的檢舉案件目前我可能理解有些重要的這些裁罰案件可能沒有辦法馬上以"},{"start":4945.228,"end":4969.386,"text":"是因為我們現在NCC委員還沒補足除了門檻以外因為這是去年NCC對外所說的就是說去年NCC委員曾經做成一個決議就是因為我們現在委員除了人數以外很重要我們現在目前傳播專業的委員是從缺的所以呢去年NCC做了一個決議就是針對傳播所相關的違規處罰案件先暫停審議審理"},{"start":4971.087,"end":4988.447,"text":"但一樣我們接受民眾的檢舉案 檢舉澄清案可以收案 但是還沒有辦法召開會議所以我很希望我們NCC要做全民的NCC能夠讓它的功能能夠來實際執行才有用啊否則我們在這邊討論這麼多法律有規範 罰則有罰 但是沒辦法開會"},{"start":4991.05,"end":5008.541,"text":"沒辦法審議 民眾已經檢舉了你們可以收件 卻不能處理所以這個我要拜託立法院因為太多民眾一直打電話來我辦公室說我們是這個國家沒有法律了嗎竟然信心的這個影像可以這樣上傳到網路上不是下架就沒事 該罰要罰法規有規範 但我們卻沒辦法開會這非常大的遺憾"},{"start":5011.563,"end":5036.084,"text":"第二點要請教這個博士就是我們金鐘獎剛落幕其實大家很關心台灣本土電視節目內容的自治我們NCCC對於本土的這個本國的文化的保障在衛星廣播法裡面第八條也有所規定就是我們在電視台規劃節目的時候其實是有保障本國文化善盡社會責任這樣的義務存在的"},{"start":5037.805,"end":5061.847,"text":"NCC有什麼樣的作為可以來提升我們本土內容節目內容的自治呢我想NCC不只應該作為一個網路或者是媒體的監理機關對於目前您所提到的這些產業的扶持應該也是NCC積極應該作為的部分那這裡會面臨到一個蠻大的挑戰是"},{"start":5063.028,"end":5079.299,"text":"在目前有限電視業者所遇到的一些經營上面的困境我想這個連結起來觀察的話NC在對於製作本土節目的獎勵機制上我想應該可以有一些更多的提升的做法"},{"start":5080.049,"end":5094.339,"text":"好我也相當認同我認為NCC除了法律的監理之外我們也可以來鼓勵跟支持所以非常的期待希望未來新的NCC能夠一起來支持我們本土節目內容的製作謝謝梅婷銘人謝謝主席謝謝吳佩儀委員發言完畢現在請洪孟凱召委發言"},{"start":5109.343,"end":5112.169,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請陳備提名人請備提名人"},{"start":5122.716,"end":5139.256,"text":"好 陳副主委 貝提名人 你好本席也很關心跟重視NCC要獨立行使機關但是很遺憾 其實最重要的還是行政部門提出來人選的時候是已經距離去年四位委員到期一年之久"},{"start":5140.277,"end":5167.945,"text":"去年7月31號到期的時候結果到新任這一屆的委員名單是今年的7月31號才提出來並且送來到立法院所以即便我們要審理過去這段時間沒有名單可以審理但關鍵還是來到因為院長講說有委員在做生涯規劃的考量等等的也因此有延檔那我想請教一下副主委被提名人什麼時候院長 院長有沒有跟您"},{"start":5170.086,"end":5185.533,"text":"徵詢過擔任委員這件事情謝謝委員行政院院長有跟我親自徵詢過什麼時候印象當中有兩次的時間第一次的時間應該是在去年的年底"},{"start":5186.053,"end":5208.82,"text":"去年年底就爭取了去年年底第一次有跟院長碰面不過第一次碰面時院長跟我談到的並不是一個具體的工作上面的問題而是想要跟我探討有關於這個有關通常會目前運作所衍生出來法律問題想要跟我"},{"start":5209.66,"end":5224.054,"text":"了解一些我的看法跟您就教好那第二次呢確定什麼時候提名你並且說副主委這樣子重責大任如果沒有記錯應該是在今年的5月5日5月5日是"},{"start":5224.634,"end":5239.31,"text":"奇怪 今天早上我們的主委被提名了一張5月5日不過重點在於是4月底院長就已經跟跟我們本院的委員在質詢的時候就有講過說已經幾乎確定名單了好 那不管"},{"start":5239.91,"end":5264.429,"text":"5月5日到7月31日中間將近三個月的時間副主委會不會覺得很好奇你5月5日答應院長說你願意承擔這個重責大任那為什麼過去這三個月行政院沒有把你們的名單交出來就這個部分我可能沒辦法回答不清楚 你也沒有去問是不是你的生涯規劃而造成院長沒有辦法送出名單"},{"start":5266.513,"end":5284.307,"text":"對我來講當然是你個人嗎我拖延的原因是你個人嗎我自己在教學上面的安排當然也會遇到一些影響但因為審查的期程沒有辦法確定所以這個所謂的影響並不是那麼的具體"},{"start":5286.215,"end":5299.45,"text":"所以不是你個人所以5月5號至少主委副主委確認了院長也公開的答詢講是說4月底可以送出名單但是5月沒有送 6月沒有送到7月31號才送出名單原因是什麼"},{"start":5301.355,"end":5325.824,"text":"這三個月NCC說有些委員會小組沒有辦法開會我們也很關心啊 我們也很焦慮啊我們也希望獨立行使機關的職權啊那為什麼行政院不提出來坊間講是說是要等大罷免啊副主委怎麼看我實在是沒辦法協助回答這樣的問題好 你也回答不出來 來"},{"start":5328.45,"end":5356.539,"text":"行政院院長要負最大責任如果說現在NCC有那麼多被卡關那麼多沒有辦法獨立行使職權提名的人負最大責任再來副主委提名人請教因為本席有看到您的這一個履歷裡面有特別提到說你也擔任過術院委員也擔任過NCC的國家賠償小組事件小組那其實國賠也好或說術院也好我相信你應該學有專精對不對不敢"},{"start":5357.859,"end":5374.188,"text":"來 那站在法令跟比例原則的角度其實NCC在上一屆最大的一個爭議也讓全國人民滑爛甚至會認為是說NCC變張嘻嘻的主要原因就是因為它當時讓一個新聞台被撤銷並且沒有辦法換賬"},{"start":5376.4,"end":5402.31,"text":"而造成新聞台實質的關閉當時很多人就說這是已經違反了言論自由跟新聞自由我們知道廣電法採取借其換照制是為了保障公眾權利視聽眾的權利並且兼顧新聞自由跟新聞專業保障新聞自由跟行政審查媒體絕對不能畫上等號那我想請教以你的角度認為NCC當時的決議有符合廣電法跟衛星廣播電視法的規範嗎"},{"start":5406.086,"end":5428.845,"text":"委員所垂詢的這個問題他在行政法院的判決當中基本上有呈現出兩個比較大的爭議那這個部分有包含對於這個程序上面的進行的問題你怎麼看如果說你是委員或是甚至你是副主委的話你會讓這樣子的一個事件發生嗎"},{"start":5431.688,"end":5453.174,"text":"對於我一個學習行政法或研究行政程序法的學者來講一個行政決定的正當行政程序的鑒於是一個必要的條件所以那麼在這個案子當中因為我老實講我也沒有辦法直接看到目前的這個相關內部決定的過程"},{"start":5453.894,"end":5472.34,"text":"但你認不認同我現在講說認不認同說這樣實質已經影響到新聞自由言論自由的一個展現我可以不同意你的話但我適時捍衛言論的自由可是在上一屆的NCC委員裡面居然發生了直接用換照的方式把一個新聞台直接撤照"},{"start":5473.4,"end":5500.261,"text":"你認同這樣的行為嗎依照法規監理機關他在換照的審查權限上有他應該要面對的媒體的言論自由或傳播自由但是他也需要顧慮到應保障的公共利益所以在這個公益跟私益的權衡當中機關的這個決定應該有他一定的應鑒於的正當行政程序同時 副主委不是只是拖時間講人話好嗎"},{"start":5502.323,"end":5504.92,"text":"持球对决可以吗回答本席问题可以吗"},{"start":5505.856,"end":5531.29,"text":"我就是在回答委員的問題來我看一下因為現在法院也有做相關的一個這個審議那如果說假設現在這個新聞台他在做這個相關的這個訴願相關的一個行政法院的一個流程到最後真的判決有瑕疵處分違法那我們要怎麼面對你當過這個國賠你當過訴願小組的委員可能處理這案件如果到時候業者申請國賠的話"},{"start":5533.051,"end":5550.473,"text":"在一個法治國家裡面不管是機關或者是政府哪一個單位在法院的判決做成之後依法院判決而做成應有的相應的措施這是理所當然的那如果說現在看起來現在法院也已經判了這個業者已經26勝"},{"start":5552.765,"end":5578.001,"text":"NCC26B那有沒有人應該要負起相關的政治責任或是裁量責任在目前委員所提到的以換照案件為例我所理解還在法院的訴訟進行當中所以這個法院判決的結果出來之後如果會涉及到相關的問題這個依法應該要做如何的處理本來也就是法律規範的內容"},{"start":5580.069,"end":5601.935,"text":"主委本席期待你講的跟你過去現在以及未來的言行都一致NCC是獨立行使公正的機關但最重要的是面子是別人給的臉是自己丟的這句話我期待每一個被提名的委員都要有信心跟有能力能夠讓國人看到NCC的專業謝謝"},{"start":5605.266,"end":5610.249,"text":"謝謝侯孟卡委員發言完畢現在請林國成委員發言好謝謝召委請我們陳提名人現在請阿貝提名人"},{"start":5638.724,"end":5665.228,"text":"好 那個陳備提名人我想一向本黨對於任何事情是理性務實可寫沒有根據的我們也不會問當然因為這個NCC的提名當然雖然卓院長抱歉了好幾次騙台灣人民好幾次那總是已經塵埃漏電也提名"},{"start":5666.318,"end":5690.225,"text":"大家可以看得出來我們還是很迅速的排審所以我在這裡最近我看到一篇報導也就是說這次是行政院有提一個國民黨籍我很冒昧請教你這次你被提名到底是國民黨推薦"},{"start":5691.653,"end":5715.364,"text":"或者他們自己找你這點是不是請回答謝謝委員的提問應該是願意就直接徵詢沒有經過國民黨推薦我自己從工作以來基本上沒有參與任何的政黨的實際的運作對啦 所以你是有國民黨籍沒有交黨會 是嗎"},{"start":5719.647,"end":5735.567,"text":"目前的狀況是這是國民黨選黨主席你有沒有選沒有那就失聯黨員但是我要在這裡拜託我們行政院張秘書長在這裡你知不知道現在媒體的亂象"},{"start":5736.989,"end":5752.705,"text":"把你寫得好像是中國國民黨推薦結果我們在審查的時候我看你資料我看你資料 也是真的是這樣所以我是覺得這樣不能用議論的煙幕彈來做闖關要實際對於NCC有幫助的專長"},{"start":5759.211,"end":5777.265,"text":"這個才是正確的所以我特別為什麼要問你這個黨籍的問題因為先南大坡包括很多媒體在用議論的煙幕彈真的有時候我也產生一點錯覺所以我在希望我們"},{"start":5780.167,"end":5793.873,"text":"被提名的人這個部分我要特別跟你建議一下沒有就沒有 有就有但是事實上你也沒有經過國民黨來提名不要產生誤解其實第二個"},{"start":5794.966,"end":5814.875,"text":"我是特別要請教你因為你寫法例當然到NCC因為他要監督還有要管理法例當然有必要可是這個法例人當主委副主委我說實在的我們對他是沒有信心的 為什麼"},{"start":5815.535,"end":5838.496,"text":"他的法律來到NCC委員會的時候就走樣你知道嗎那我也看到你的資歷你參加過很多人民請願的訴願委員會那這都是好事這也都是對於這整個有幫助但是我要特別提醒我們陳備提名人"},{"start":5839.156,"end":5867.382,"text":"學法律是只有一個公平跟正義跟依法有據所以不要像以前的主委啊以前的委員啊歐亞變白這個就不好 世衛不分不好所以我還是要提醒你啦學法律要有法律尊嚴的這種骨氣所以也不要進了NCC以後就馬上法律變成綠華這樣就不好"},{"start":5868.422,"end":5891.029,"text":"那另外一個現在就是有一個亂象NCC這幾年來對於我們這些新聞媒體假信息患難還有假新聞 新聞的亂象請問護足違背提名人你如何加強"},{"start":5892.557,"end":5898.575,"text":"NCC如何加強這個管理的理想 請回答"},{"start":5900.335,"end":5927.908,"text":"謝謝委員的指教有關於這樣的社會的亂象或者是訊息的亂象目前我們的監理的機制確實存在有比較大的困難主要是面對沒有辦法納管的一些平台因此在管制的力道上面確實是由委員所沒有納管沒有納管有沒有納管的這些法規"},{"start":5929.068,"end":5936.261,"text":"可以去做修正我想立法院一定會支持我現在就講就現在的亂象"},{"start":5937.697,"end":5958.755,"text":"假新聞一大堆然後啊這個新聞的亂象一大堆這些東西以現在本來NCC要做的但是NCC都沒有做所以我只要你通過了以後你就變成副主委我要問你你如何去杜解這些或者"},{"start":5960.086,"end":5980.581,"text":"怎麼樣去做我要你去做這個回答好不好是我們現在目前的主要的做法還是透過這個媒體的治癒的形式來進行比較重要的一個規管那透過監理機關對於這個整個治癒機制的運作的後段的這個監理呢也可以有一些"},{"start":5981.981,"end":6007.551,"text":"促進媒體自律的這樣的一個可能性好啦 那個陳佩提米人你如果要這樣講 我跟你講喔我這很明確告訴你 我會不同意你的任命案 我坦白跟你講第一個 現在很只要是亂象嘛但是那是以前的委員會嘛你新來的委員會 你一定有新的做法嘛我要的是你這個答案 那沒有關係啦我也不要逼你啦 你也不敢講"},{"start":6008.973,"end":6033.564,"text":"對不對好最後一個我想請教你現在檢舉案件因為你做過很多單位的溯源委員會那溯源委員會當然就是除了公正以外是站在老百姓的立場嘛所以我請教現在NCC有已經有500件到600件的檢舉案件到現在為止喔"},{"start":6034.324,"end":6042.659,"text":"沒有開罰過一件因為NCC都怕電視台啊尤其綠色的電視台你們更怕啊"},{"start":6043.908,"end":6070.041,"text":"所以這個部分我要提醒你這個是你的課程要去做改革這個部分一定要用一點心所以在這裡我要期勉我們這個副主委的提名人在這個部分是亂象如何你們進去以後撥亂反正回歸正軌這才是NCC的副主委應有的作為好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":6072.634,"end":6077.699,"text":"好謝謝林國成委員發言完畢現在請羅廷偉委員發言謝謝主席有請陳備題名人請備題名人"},{"start":6100.385,"end":6118.036,"text":"好陳貝提名人你好我想跟你研究幾個問題就教一下您長期研究行政法對於熟悉政府決策整個法制的程序想請問你從行政法角度來看NCC的獨立怎麼界定"},{"start":6119.966,"end":6143.28,"text":"NCC的獨立可以透過組織的獨立來首先獲得它的正當性包含它的提名的這個委員的人選的結構以及政黨的比例等等的組織上面的正當性來確認它的獨立性這是從組織的面向上獲得確保那您認為過去有嗎"},{"start":6145.187,"end":6166.287,"text":"過去在剛剛你所提的就是政黨的比例等等你覺得過去有嗎過去從專業以及他的這個政黨比例的角度來看的話是我認為在形式上並沒有太大的疑問沒有太大的疑問好 謝謝您的回答那假設未來在某個重大的評普分配"},{"start":6167.27,"end":6180.707,"text":"媒體換照平台監管的議題上行政院有其政策方向而NCC的判斷不同你認為應如何在行政一體的原則與機關獨立行使職權取得平衡"},{"start":6182.231,"end":6207.803,"text":"委員所垂詢的行政議題應該不包含所謂的個案的委員會的判斷但是在廣泛的人事的決定權限上面根據大法官的解釋行政院作為獨立機關的上一機關它應有一定的人事權限但是在個案的決定上面應該沒有涉入的可能性"},{"start":6208.737,"end":6231.929,"text":"所以你可以很具體的回答你絕對不會受任何的政治干涉可以嗎跟委員報告我從開始從事教學跟在政務部門服務基本上所擔任的工作都具有相當的不管是學術的獨立性或者是資源行使的獨立性這一點我自己是有蠻大的自信"},{"start":6232.483,"end":6260.26,"text":"好 謝謝那你的回答我想大家都看在眼裡那我想另外再請問一下現在媒體生態變得比較複雜那我們都可以看到哪怕是社群平台網路平台演算法決定我們看到什麼假訊息又滿天飛你認為NCC在這些問題當中扮演著要規範還是協調你比較傾向是產業自律政府共管還是立法強化約束"},{"start":6262.272,"end":6288.074,"text":"這裡會涉及到對於內容的管制那如果剛剛一開始的說明裡在管制的模式上面比較弱勢的自我規制業者的單純的業者自律可能在強度上有一些欠缺但是如果有可能的話提升到業者的功率跟業者功率指的是整個社群體的工會加入與"},{"start":6289.255,"end":6317.976,"text":"行政機關公司的合作質疑的這種模式也許是一種管制的思考是管制的思考但是你認為這樣子就可以有效的去防範嗎我不知道如果採這樣的方式是不是確實是有效但是在這個管制的模型的思維上面如果以目前單純的仰賴業者的自我管制在管制的力道上面以及他的實效性有所欠缺的話提升他的管制密度也許這是一種可以考慮的"},{"start":6318.607,"end":6346.177,"text":"我们就拿演算法来说好了不管社群平台网路的相关平台的一个机制演算法就像是传统媒体我们所说的就是读者或者是观众喜欢看什么就给予那你认为演算法的一个机制我们就拿所有的观点来说好了每一个读者或者是网路的使用者透过演算法不断的给予他喜爱的议题"},{"start":6346.917,"end":6361,"text":"背後有什麼我們可以值得反思的你覺得這個機制有沒有問題你覺得這個機制演算法就是特定喜好給予供給不斷的給予供給你覺得對於這後面有沒有我們應該反思檢討的"},{"start":6362.072,"end":6385.663,"text":"我想他在整個市場的結構上面個人的消費行為甚至於大到整個民主的共識的形塑多元價值的形成他可能都會產生蠻大的挑戰可不可以更具體的講演算法所帶來讀者會有什麼樣的一個觀點上的變化您認為呢"},{"start":6388.88,"end":6411.353,"text":"我的認知可能是他的自我決定的空間會遭受到比較大的壓縮對 所以我們要講就是說我們就拿演算法對於孩童來說好了孩童不斷的投其所好他永遠就只看到他這個框架所得到的一些相關網路資訊甚至是我們拿特定的喜愛"},{"start":6412.981,"end":6441.432,"text":"更有可能是特定的政黨偏好沒有多元的觀點接收更多元的一些資訊對於這樣子的一個單一資訊提供雖然是投其所好但是卻讓所有的讀者或者是相關的使用者缺少了更多元的反思我想這個部分在NCC保障媒體多元維護言論自由又要防止假訊息的擴散方面你認為有沒有什麼具體的方案"},{"start":6445.111,"end":6461.649,"text":"目前如同前面跟委员的说明目前如果以单纯的仰赖业者的自律规范看起来这个形式可能会有一些不足对啊所以我们有没有什么方案吗"},{"start":6462.443,"end":6482.462,"text":"我剛有提到以公司的這種合作質疑可能是一個可行的方式所以我說看起來你們應該不可能會去做一個所謂的規範者那你們又要做一個協調者嗎那政府要共管還是立法強化我想NCC作為一個監管機關它作為一個法律秩序的一個設計的工作是絕對責無旁貸的"},{"start":6484.431,"end":6512.087,"text":"但是我們沒有看到具體的行為我想不管是過往的NCC或者是未來的NCC我們都希望它在任內中能夠推動一項改革能夠讓大家有感NCC新的委員有新的氣象甚至新官上任三把火讓這一把火能夠讓大家看到我想那你可不可以說你任內如果你擔任這樣的職務你有沒有什麼最想改革的一個方案最想做什麼比如說能夠建立更透明的程序"},{"start":6513.089,"end":6539.731,"text":"更新舊法推動治理平台還能夠讓更讓我們能夠更清楚的了解我們要投下這一票你可以帶來什麼樣讓張CC變成NCC我想在網路治理的這個部分剛剛有提到過有一些常識性的立法目前因為沒有共識但是就我自己而言我希望能夠在這個監理的法制的建立上面有所突破"},{"start":6540.765,"end":6560.615,"text":"我想我們都希望有所突破啦光我早上在問講被提名人我就有提到有關於AI的相關內容能夠主動的研議相關的AI內容透明標示制度讓民眾知道不管是這段新聞畫面照片它是AI的或者是人寫出來的"},{"start":6561.115,"end":6585.305,"text":"我想這個部分就是我們在探討當中能夠產生出更具體的方案讓看到的全國的國人能夠知道我們的對談是有更具體的一個方案讓他們覺得這樣的人擔任這個職位是我們更放心的我想最後想請問你有沒有什麼方案能夠促進偏鄉原住民地區通訊基礎的一個設施建設讓數位落差能夠縮小"},{"start":6587.195,"end":6614.794,"text":"目前我們所看到的這個網路的普及的狀態呢過往大概目前大概只有到69%那在這個有關於這個頻寬頻的普及率大概到達86%我如果印象沒有錯的話大概是這個數字所以我們有蠻大的這個調整的空間蠻大的進步空間所以我希望這些議題我們提出來你好好的檢討讓我們能夠被你說服謝謝"},{"start":6617.461,"end":6635.835,"text":"好謝謝羅廷偉委員發言完畢現在請廖先祥委員發言好謝謝主席麻煩邀請我們陳貝提名人請貝提名人"},{"start":6646.693,"end":6671.051,"text":"好 謝謝其實在早上在這邊跟這個蔣提名人大概溝通的時候大概有提在每個被提名人我大概都問類似的問題所以如果說有做準備的話應該是非常輕鬆那但是因為您比較特別您是今天四位就是禮拜一跟禮拜三這四位被提名人唯一裡面有提到黨籍的部分您上面是寫您是國民黨想確認一下您現在還有中國國民黨黨籍嗎如果委員給我時間的話我可以說明"},{"start":6676.139,"end":6699.596,"text":"因為我在剛剛在說明時有提到了2007年我有擔任過政務人員那所以在2007年那個時期在相關的資訊的提供上面呢我就把過去曾經加入政黨的這個訊息填住在上面所以曾經加入過非常早了所以現在沒有黨籍嗎"},{"start":6702.8,"end":6721.203,"text":"這一點我沒有辦法從我的角度回答應該從政黨角度來講從政黨角度所以你也不確定現在還有沒有中國國民黨黨籍那一切還是要看中國國民黨那一邊他們怎麼認定中間因為有搬遷所以很多訊息也都中斷所以最近也沒有繳黨費應該沒有了那你也沒有終身黨員的資格"},{"start":6722.865,"end":6738.245,"text":"應該沒有 沒有嗎 那就我的理解啦 就我的理解應該是目前應該是無黨籍身份啦 因為國民黨照規定的話照規定的話應該是每年都要交黨費啦 那這部分可能我覺得可以再再查清楚一下 如果說在相關"},{"start":6740.046,"end":6763.055,"text":"資料的正確性我覺得可以再更嚴謹一點那接下來就是討論到政體就是我們NCC這幾年就是社會會比較廣泛的討論就是對於新聞媒體監管的獨立性大家有許多的質疑是不是被執政黨所高度的影響所以說我也是針對這部分來跟您討論第一個就是說大家在西方說新聞媒體是第四權對不對我們當然中華民國是五權"},{"start":6766.616,"end":6788.898,"text":"但是習慣上大家還是講第四權嘛那你對第四權的一個理解是怎麼樣我認為他作為既有政治權力以外的這樣的所謂第四權他具有相當強的對政府職能的監督的工作同時他可以協助人民的政治意識的形成"},{"start":6789.369,"end":6799.279,"text":"所以一個很重要的點您認為是第四權為什麼會被叫做第四權是因為大家期待他來監督政府那接下來是您對於第四權的一個期待"},{"start":6801.886,"end":6821.166,"text":"我期待他在新聞的報導上面他能夠有真實的查證提供人民正確的資訊的內容同時他對於政府能夠進行有效而非理性的這種監督形式好所以就是包括了媒體的自律自律再加上監督這樣子"},{"start":6821.887,"end":6845.222,"text":"我想媒體的自律是它作為監督權力的前提非常重要嗎好 那我想每個媒體都會有所謂的政黨色彩不只台灣啦 西方媒體現在也都是非常普遍的情況人有立場很正常那一個新聞媒體有立場現在看好像也滿正常的啦但是重點有沒有辦法做到剛剛您講的自律這一點我覺得是大家對於新聞媒體的一個期待啦那"},{"start":6846.323,"end":6863.978,"text":"看看您這邊願不願意對我們國內的現在的媒體生態來給一些評論無論是如果說您願意的話對可能各個不同光譜的新聞媒體的一個評論或者是總的概括性的一個評論我不曉得您可以您敢對個別媒體評論嗎還是要概括性的一個評論"},{"start":6865.58,"end":6891.969,"text":"我想我不太適合對個別媒體概括性的一個評論現在國內的一個媒體的生態國內的媒體的生態其實跟很多的民主國家都有這樣的類似性就是他的政治意識明確的表現在這個媒體之上那這個也不是一個完全意外的事情所以我們對很多的媒體會稱他為右派媒體左派的媒體這個也是理所當然的事情"},{"start":6892.569,"end":6903.862,"text":"但是即使有這樣的一個所謂的光譜的呈現在新聞的提供在資訊的提供上面他應該保持的中立性是不能因此而受影響"},{"start":6904.784,"end":6924.671,"text":"是OK自律以及中立性是我們是您現在對我們國內媒體生媒體生態的一個期許是好那謝謝那最後兩個問題第一個是就牽扯到我們比較時事了那針對於中天電視台那換照的一個爭議您認為是否有政治力的干預"},{"start":6927.086,"end":6956.262,"text":"您自己的感覺我沒有辦法用這種簡略的方式來評論這樣的問題我是一個法律工作者我是一個法律工作者我只能夠從在這個案件所呈現出來的法院的判決爭議當中去找到他可能在事實的認定事實審部分的爭執以及法律上面的沒關係那針對這個事件您有一個什麼樣子的一個初步的一個簡單的想法重點性的來做說明"},{"start":6957.001,"end":6983.249,"text":"我認為行政機關在這邊運用它比較寬泛的一個裁量或者是所謂的管制裁量的這個權限的行使那麼在正當行政程序的鑒於上面呢有人對於這個正當程序的這個密度的高低可能有不同的想法是那如果說您這是在您NCC委員任內好的一個換照的事件您認為您在裡面會有不一樣的聲音嗎"},{"start":6984.78,"end":7003.655,"text":"我不會說這是一個不一樣的聲音但是做一個法律工作者在做成任何一個重大的涉及到廣電媒體的決定的事件上面他應該建立的正當的行政程序以及透明化的要求我認為應該是最高的您認為應該還有更高的一個標準"},{"start":7005.419,"end":7024.638,"text":"我不曉得怎麼去形容更高的標準對你自己來說我認為它應該是一個管事上面的一個最高的一個標準來處理這樣的一個事件好 那另外一個最後一題就是有關靜電室的一個設立的過程應該也是一個非常廣泛的社會的議題那你認為在過程中是否你有感受到有沒有政治力的干預"},{"start":7025.619,"end":7042.092,"text":"我個人對這個事件沒有那麼清楚了解他們的深色過程裡面所提供的這些文件但是從媒體的報導看起來是有一些外在正反不同的想法所以不太敢表達您的看法"},{"start":7043.369,"end":7055.325,"text":"因為我沒有在充足的資訊的情況之下我也不適合代替我想您未來是NCC委員你也會遇到可能有可能如果說被提名通過的話你也會是裡面的委員那我想社會中"},{"start":7056.417,"end":7082.304,"text":"近電視發生的事情或許未來也會一樣在您的審查過程當中也會遇到我覺得您對過去的事情應該也要多一些去了解然後知道說社會對這件事情爭議的爭點點在哪裡是社會的誤解還是其中過程當中真的是有什麼為失或是不應當的地方好不好 以上謝謝謝謝主席謝謝廖先祥委員發言完畢現在請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":7094.215,"end":7100.5,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們陳副主委貝廷銘人請貝廷銘人好 謝謝因為應該是第一次見面是"},{"start":7111.3,"end":7126.78,"text":"那我特別有看到您的這次報告的一個包括學經理你過去的一個坦白講在各政府一個機關擔任了很多不管是行政法方面甚至評審委員那這個部分特別看到你是行政法的一個權威學者"},{"start":7127.401,"end":7150.643,"text":"我真的覺得蠻開心的但是這種開心是一則喜一則以憂啊因為我們過去我個人才有三年多的時間有幸啊跟另外一位行政法的權威學者在NCC啊NCC啊這個很多的事情啊說真真草草或者鬧的當年NCC啊當時陳耀祥主委那我也覺得"},{"start":7151.784,"end":7176.839,"text":"同樣是行政法的一個權威學者本來就是依法行政嘛很多東西本來就是依法行政但是我發覺有幾個問題第一個是你覺得在NCC作為這個不管是傳播廣播媒體甚至這個電信相關的一個部分對於整個媒體的這個環境在這幾年NCC最高主管機關獨立機關你覺得營造的整體的一個環境你滿不滿意"},{"start":7181.261,"end":7190.104,"text":"你作為一個你還沒有不是一般的民眾你是教授陳教授你覺得整個看到這樣的一個媒體環境你滿意嗎每個人的滿意值可能不太一樣對用你的標準我認為監理機關在這邊他會面臨到相當多的監理的困境這是確實存在著"},{"start":7207.048,"end":7232.917,"text":"好 你這話說得滿實在的滿實在的這個部分確實上有很多的一個困境但是我想請教一下那您又是什麼樣的一個機緣那我們知道像您的學經歷真的是像千里馬那博樂是誰是誰引薦有這樣的一個機緣來擔任我們NCC的副主委的提名人這個是誰引薦的 機緣在哪裡能不能說一下"},{"start":7236.539,"end":7263.181,"text":"這個我印象裡面是年底的時候就行政院這邊直接有同仁聯繫我但我中間這個環節我確實不太了解就行政院聯絡你但我在這邊直接跟你建議如果真的經過了這樣的一個這個審查的過程投票的過程那我真是覺得因為過去我覺得所謂的獨立機關不獨立最主要很多都是這種人脈"},{"start":7264.102,"end":7287.448,"text":"伯樂恩人這種的一個觀念在裡面因為你沒辦法你沒辦法直接說我專家學者我自己就跳進來變一個獨立機關你會有很多人引薦你會有很多的包括你的伯樂那我是在這裡真的跟你建議我不知道你同不同意啦不管是引薦你的伯樂也好或者說你的這個所謂恩人也好那但是你擔任"},{"start":7288.601,"end":7306.01,"text":"如果擔任這個機關副主委是一個獨立的一個機關你覺得你未來會不會針對這些幫過或者引薦的人他對你的影響你覺得你能夠去避免他對你NCC專業上面的影響嗎"},{"start":7307.791,"end":7335.427,"text":"謝謝委員的指教在我被徵詢同時同意擔任這樣的獨立機關的工作時這個問題已經不是問題我認為擔任獨立機關的委員他的先決條件就是他自身必須要保持在事務決定上面的獨立性所以這點也請委員放心好"},{"start":7336.528,"end":7359.798,"text":"但我其實不太放心不太放心的原因是因為我們經歷之前的NCC換屆有小換屆那整個過程中確實我們覺得有獨立專業的但確實很多的事情也真的被一雙隱形的手在影響但到底它影響從哪些管道那這個部分我們是真的是一個期許那接下來的一個部分我想請教"},{"start":7363.827,"end":7386.775,"text":"這個你剛剛特別說啦對於一個案子不管是中天的案子今天是案子你要做一個怎麼樣的一個說明不夠精準還是盡量依法嘛那事實上在今年的3月6號我們最高行政法院針對112年度上次419號判決419判決之後我看你給各黨的回應你大概也有看過了"},{"start":7387.535,"end":7408.674,"text":"那這個其中有個蠻重要的一個因素當結果 結果是最高行政法院覺得把這個判決原判決把它廢棄了把這個case又把它丟回了 被高刑等於說大概是重新審理吧那他 我只想這中間的引用一個最具體的理由是說"},{"start":7410.695,"end":7418.739,"text":"這種評分表的一個變更譬如說我們右邊我簡單來說未來營運計畫佔60%然後你能不能換賬你就按照這個把它做過來右邊是評鑑結果修正改善營運報告佔40%但是它107年跟109年"},{"start":7430.425,"end":7453.195,"text":"到中天案子送進來的時候他就用新的法規而且最後他在右邊的內部控管機制跟自律從原本你知道嗎 有時候要考大學高中生在準備 從高一就開始準備高一就看聯考的制度我要考英文系 台大英文 英文加50%"},{"start":7454.836,"end":7474.475,"text":"我要考什麼樣的一個系這個部分什麼東西有加分在過去的聯招制度到現在都有加分的項目那大家三年這些學生我就乖乖老老實實去針對這樣的項目來去準備那可是到了要換照的時候說不好意思啊就是換了"},{"start":7476.016,"end":7492.778,"text":"整個換了而且有些機制變成他一個整個這個執照就不發給他的所以這個部分最高行政法院你依法行政那在這樣的一個案子你自己的感覺怎麼樣如果 因為你現在還不是你是提名人而已"},{"start":7493.88,"end":7510.642,"text":"你可以有兩種答案第一個就你一個專家學者你就是最高行政法院都這樣的說了現在確實也打回來打回來可能重新要開始雙方再去走一波現在但是你對於這個部分你的看法如何"},{"start":7512.044,"end":7525.457,"text":"這裡面所涉及到的可能有法律面向的問題在中央法規標準法18條的規定裡面在決定程序當中法規的變動是否要重新或者是重修的這個爭議"},{"start":7526.798,"end":7543.034,"text":"另外在容許管制機關有寬泛的管制材料的情況之下在總額之下的細項的權重的調整是否能夠被一樣的尊重這可能也是法院在這邊表示不同的想法"},{"start":7543.786,"end":7567.424,"text":"好的 我也希望像這樣的一個 這個你是行政法的一個權威嘛一法論法 一法行政嘛所以最高行政法院 不是我說的啦最高行政法院我們也希望你們真的能夠尊重一點如果對於已經覺得有問題的不要再這個硬拗啦如果你有其他理由 你自己再提啦那最後我要真的是如果你們有機會進NCC的話"},{"start":7568.925,"end":7585.995,"text":"我們真的是希望對於剛剛問你台灣整個一個媒體的一個現況其實從多元 億元早期可能國民黨時代也是億元然後慢慢變多元現在就我個人看法是大概現在不管是政論節目主要的媒體"},{"start":7586.875,"end":7608.185,"text":"都慢慢慢慢可能有八成都在說一類的話我不知道在NCC未來能夠做什麼第二個在單篇的一個媒體的報導國家重要新聞或者重要的新聞或者社會重要的行為會因為一家媒體覺得我不想報某一個人即使他是大家關注的新聞他也不報 零"},{"start":7609.466,"end":7631.074,"text":"他完全可以不報 或者有一些另外一方的 他就給他從頭報到尾我倒是覺得你剛剛講一句話 我是很認同在光譜有不同 但對於新聞媒體它一個本質 它的天職對於有新聞媒體的這個部分 我們也希望你們未來 接下來有機會的話能夠把它做得更好 謝謝"},{"start":7635.405,"end":7659.708,"text":"謝謝魯明哲委員發言完畢現在請蔡奇昌委員發言謝謝主席請陳明修被提名人請被提名人"},{"start":7668.103,"end":7692.169,"text":"委員好 被提名的吳安好我看了一下資料 應該是這一次四個這個NC委員被提名人當中你是唯一上面有填黨籍的是對 那你填的是國民黨那法規是沒有規定法規只有規定說黨籍有黨籍的不可以超過幾分之幾並沒有說"},{"start":7693.869,"end":7706.848,"text":"NCC作為一個獨立機關所有的委員必須是無黨籍並沒有這樣的規定但本席有一點好奇如果你真的在立法院投票通過了你會退出國民黨嗎"},{"start":7710.273,"end":7727.464,"text":"跟委員報告如果以我的個人家庭背景來說的話是從高中時期就在學校加入然後因為我的家庭因素所以這個參與政黨的事實就一直到今天也沒有任何去變動"},{"start":7728.985,"end":7757.515,"text":"那跟我父親的關係所以我沒有去積極的去處理這個事情那一直到目前這個狀態那如果說我也沒有想做什麼更積極的處理如果像剛剛有委員詢問他是屬於某一種狀態那就到那個狀態下所以你會擔心說因為你是國民黨籍所以大家挑戰你的這個獨立或公正性嗎"},{"start":7758.343,"end":7779.559,"text":"我從來不會在這個問題上面有這樣的想法不會擔心這個問題從來不會但本席還是要提醒因為在立法院對NCC委員這麼多年來藍白兩黨都不斷在挑戰委員公正獨立性所以其他三個委員是無黨籍那你是國民黨籍"},{"start":7781,"end":7807.103,"text":"剛剛又說這個政治的黑手會透過不知道什麼管道伸進來你擔不擔心你被人家誤解說這個國民黨在背後指揮你未來在NCC的委員的職權的行使上面會有這個問題我沒有辦法去影響別人的擔心但是我自己不會所以你很明確的告訴大家所以對NCC委員的獨立性公正性我想這個是每一個NCC委員都應該去遵守"},{"start":7807.723,"end":7817.434,"text":"從我的工作到今天我基本上對於應該扮演的獨立性的角色從來沒有質疑過好那魏廷遠我想這個"},{"start":7820.005,"end":7848.265,"text":"希望今天我的这个问题你能够记住这件事情那我也希望说在未来这个任何在NCC行使职权的时候对于像我们会面临很多因为台湾是一个高度对立的社会所以呢面对哪一家电视台的言论在某一些人认为很对某一些人认为很错哪一些人认为哪一台必须关或撤哪一些人觉得不需要"},{"start":7849.281,"end":7872.848,"text":"那本席認為過度在個案上面關心其實都是一種干預被提名的你同不同意我同意這樣的想法那會有這樣的疑慮我想可能也是未來我們在如果能夠順利擔任這個工作時應該要處理的問題很多的信任是建立在透明的程度上"},{"start":7874.589,"end":7895.983,"text":"對 理論上是你講的本席的同意啦但是現實的運作上你再透明還是會有人不斷的在這個台上質詢你而且這個馬上就會發生不相信的話我們在這裡打個賭你只要通過測試之後未來你的行職者準則裡面雖然你覺得你很透明公正獨立 但"},{"start":7897.827,"end":7923.937,"text":"我本席相信你還是會被挑戰或許不是挑戰你會挑戰主委啦所以你自己那個要很清楚那把尺在哪裡最後一個問題我想這個對本席而言我對於這個詐騙是深惡痛絕詐騙不只是只有NCC的事情書發部內政部警政署甚至整個行政團隊立法院"},{"start":7925.168,"end":7950.5,"text":"都必須把這個事情做為最重要的那我看一下這個NCC最近也在宣傳嘛說這個重要的這個國家通訊重播委員會不會用這個E-mail去做發送那個不知道貝提美有沒有注意到這個事情有嘛 就是發送說告訴消費者說"},{"start":7952.211,"end":7967.358,"text":"NCC來信用email這個都是假的我們不會做這個事情那本席沒有要你今天回答因為你還沒有通過這個審查所以呢本席希望未來有機會就教於NCC"},{"start":7968.772,"end":7984.901,"text":"對於我們的打詐就NCC該扮演特別在簡訊這個平台上面NCC該有什麼樣新的作為跟想法我想是接下來這幾個NCC委員裡面本席最期待你們做到的事情"},{"start":7985.751,"end":8013.545,"text":"也就是說不是只有NCC的工作但NCC它有它的這個職權裡面該去負責的事情所以我希望這個負責因為我們還有你通過審查我們還有很多次會有常常見面的機會所以本席一定會來請教NCC看未來怎麼在這個打榨上面辦得也好NCC該做的事情一定要比以前做得更好那個貝提敏大概"},{"start":8014.997,"end":8030.04,"text":"我先不因為時間的關係啦 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝 接下來請李昆哲委員質詢好 謝謝蔡會長我們請貝提名人 陳教授"},{"start":8048.803,"end":8075,"text":"委員好 被提名的您好剛才有很多委員都誇你是行政法的權威其實我也為你如果是通過被提名之後我也為你擔憂因為過去也有行政法的權威在這邊被行政法的威權修理的遍體鄰商你要好自為之"},{"start":8076.089,"end":8094.445,"text":"那我現在這邊要請教一下被提名人那其實你的表現非常的理性 非常的專業其實我也不認為說你就是國民黨籍我甚至認為你是民眾黨的因為你真的就是理性 科學又務實"},{"start":8096.888,"end":8110.78,"text":"現在我要請教就是有關於網際網路的視聽服務法它的草案到現在還沒有通過那在目前這樣狀況之下就是說這些境外平台它似乎是不受內容的一些"},{"start":8112.325,"end":8136.751,"text":"監管那多數平台他並沒有在我們的國家設置在地的窗口或者是相關的集合制度那這也會導致一些消費者的權益沒有辦法確實的獲得保障之外我們也看到很多的假訊息或是政治廣告他的這樣的一個來源也難以追蹤那"},{"start":8138.018,"end":8162.028,"text":"我記得你也提及過我們對於OTT應該要納入公平的一個規範那你當然也應該會支持這個網際網路的視聽服務法吧來簡單說明一下謝謝委員垂詢這個問題其實是一個世界各國面臨到的新的挑戰台灣目前在做這樣一個嘗試亞洲各國也"},{"start":8162.828,"end":8184.084,"text":"一樣的有做這樣的一個立法上的思維那委員剛剛所提到的這些跨國平台他們在台灣的落地化這是在管制的我認為它是一個基點這個基點如果沒辦法先把它踩住的話後面的管制都可能會落空對 這種基點就是所謂的落地化責任"},{"start":8184.884,"end":8194.972,"text":"那落地化責任辦包含了透明報告以及相關的內容介入那你認為境外平台它的在地化責任是要怎麼去展現呢"},{"start":8199.198,"end":8222.576,"text":"他的這個在地化的責任包含他如果能夠收到有效的一個監管的話那這裡面可能會刻意他一定的監理的強度對於他比如說我們採取一些強制他登記那引申延伸到後續對於他的這個製作內容上面的一些揭露"},{"start":8223.397,"end":8250.067,"text":"甚至於像韓國的做法呢在這個基點上會嘗試對他科證一定的公科等等這些都是一些在立法上可以嘗試的思維這也是我們以後要努力的一個方向針對這個在地發責任這些平台必須要負起這個相關的保護消費者的一個基本的義務那另外我要來請教一下被提名的就是說通常會已經請這個知策會"},{"start":8252.308,"end":8277.094,"text":"來研擬相關的廣播與電視頻道AI的應用指引的草案其實是建議媒體應該要明確的標示AI的生成內容而且要落實查證跟相關的比例原則業者應該要自律而非直接的干預當然業者也會有相關的理由"},{"start":8277.864,"end":8306.797,"text":"来做一个推卸说这是商业机密这是什么那你的看法是如何的我想目前我们能够先尝试的也如刚刚委员所提示的目前我们先尝试从业界的自律先行这里面包含是不是能够具体的落实业者新闻媒体业者遵守法尊同时要加强他在AI内容的事实查证的机制"},{"start":8308.959,"end":8324.599,"text":"這個相關的程序的揭露以及它的相關程序的透明可能是我們目前在這個機制下可以著力的點其實我看到我們目前台灣其實沒有強制力的這種AI內容的標示或者是審核的制度目前是沒有"},{"start":8326.661,"end":8349.404,"text":"部分新聞台現在也漸漸的在嘗試的用一些AI的生成畫面虛擬的主播或者是主動的寫稿撰稿等等其實觀眾現在難以辨認他的真偽那AI的內容如果是誤導侵權或是性別的刻板印象"},{"start":8350.245,"end":8370.148,"text":"那缺乏明確的這種責任歸屬其實我想被提名的也應該清楚歐盟AI法它已經將新聞的AI列為是一種高風險的應用是一種高風險的應用當然我看我們NCC仍然是停留在指引草案的這個階段"},{"start":8372.045,"end":8398.602,"text":"人家是高風險應用的這樣的一個規格在看待我們還在指引草案的這樣的一個一個階段來說明一下對於委員剛剛所詢問到的有一些紅線其實我認為NCC應該是可以確立這些不能夠跨越的紅線特別是在有關於身為技術生成像是這個色情或性影像的這一部分的傳播至少在某一些重要的"},{"start":8400.963,"end":8424.358,"text":"這個AI技術的運用上面應該要有更加強這個平台守門人的義務的這個空間的對啊 提名的我們來看我們現在AI的技術它其實正在改變新聞的這種生產的流程那AI的自動生成它自動生成新聞或者是影像如何要確保它的真實性因為它號稱是新聞"},{"start":8425.441,"end":8442.82,"text":"那來源可驗跟倫理問責真實性都是我們要面對的嚴肅課題那NCC是否應該要建立這種AI生成內容的標示跟集合的規範呢來 你說明一下"},{"start":8443.36,"end":8464.114,"text":"我認為這個部分的這個透明化的標示是有它的必要一般我們在對於廣播新聞節目電影頻道的電影的這些管制分級的一些分類的管制標示它的重要性在AI運用於新聞的製作上面我想應該是有同樣的道理"},{"start":8464.758,"end":8475.836,"text":"好這個希望這個被提名的人如果順利通過提名也必須針對剛才所提的方面實際的努力的督促跟推動謝謝委員"},{"start":8486.891,"end":8500.456,"text":"好謝謝蔡其昌會長現在請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在現在請武力華委員武力華委員武力華委員不在"},{"start":8501.184,"end":8517.202,"text":"現在請許智傑委員許智傑委員許智傑委員不在現在請陳素月委員陳素月委員陳素月委員不在現在請林俊憲委員林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在"},{"start":8517.882,"end":8531.374,"text":"現在請范雲委員 范雲委員 范雲委員不在現在請徐滬葵委員 徐滬葵委員 徐滬葵委員不在現在請黃健豪委員發言好 謝謝主席那我們一樣邀請被提名人請被提名人"},{"start":8551.132,"end":8570.511,"text":"委員好陳老師你好我想針對很多委員剛剛在提黨籍的問題剛好國民黨剛剛選完主席我想確認一下你有收到投票通知單嗎沒有那你有繳黨費嗎沒有那我想你可能算是廣義來說算失聯黨員我在這方面幫你澄清一下你應該不算黨員了"},{"start":8571.77,"end":8591.326,"text":"所以你的這個可能早年的黨籍在國民黨但是我想現在你應該沒有具有黨籍的身份我在這邊幫你澄清一下所以你未來不用擔心這個政黨中立的問題我想你不是現階段你在黨員資料庫裡面既然你沒有收到投票通知單就表示你現在沒有黨權這是第一個部分那再來這個"},{"start":8594.128,"end":8620.135,"text":"陳老師你是我們許多單位的這個訴願委員那當然包含說今天大家非常關心的一樣還是屬於中天案這件事情那針對中天案的話我想這個一二審加起來已經有數十次這個NCC有這個所謂敗訴的紀錄那我不知道說作為一個訴願委員您認為我想了解一下你對這個事情的法律上的見解還有以及你會是否依照後續法院的規範來做相關的處置在這個事情上面"},{"start":8621.423,"end":8638.383,"text":"謝謝委員的指正 我剛剛在前面幾個委員的這個提問當中也已經有說明過就是說在法院的裁判出現上級審跟這個市審之間認知的這個落差"},{"start":8639.584,"end":8657.839,"text":"這是一個在法院判決當中常見的現象那我認為就NCC這樣的原主任機關來講他應該注意的是被糾正的為師的點是在事實認定上面的錯誤或者是他在法律見解上面的失衡"},{"start":8658.499,"end":8683.793,"text":"那就這個部分如果有最終的法院的確定終局裁判出來之後作為一個法治國家下的獨立機關依照法院判決應該採取的作為這個應該沒有其他的空間好 謝謝陳老師那接下來這個這題其他的部分針對說現在是這個我想數位匯流時代那現在NCC現在NCC的狀況基本上是管有線電視那其實"},{"start":8686.57,"end":8708.515,"text":"在有限電視這部分有在監管但是對於網路的部分好像跟網路業界跟這個所謂電視平台的監管差別非常大那不知道說在您的例子上面你覺得說未來要不要改變這個現象包含說有沒有可能是廢除廣電三法還是納入網路的管理在這個事情上面您對這個事情的看法是什麼"},{"start":8710.036,"end":8735.498,"text":"我对这问题的看法是认为目前我们在NCC的职长上面所管应该说归管的对象是限制在电信业者身上所以就法规所赋予NCC职长的权限范围有现行法当中一定的局限虽然在组织法当中有扩增到网际网路传播的监管"},{"start":8736.755,"end":8753.746,"text":"但是目前我们对于网际网路平台上面的监管的力度基本上等同于零我们采取的是一个比较弱密度的一个规管的一个形态那就它所造成的产业生态上面的影响却是如此的重大"},{"start":8754.386,"end":8776.487,"text":"那我自己的想法是不會採取二則一的方式而是應該改善我們既有對於像有線電視或者是衛星廣播電視法當中它的管制密度是否應該相應的隨之做一些平衡的規範那對於目前上缺規範的例如像是網際網路上面的這些服務業者的這些規"},{"start":8778.168,"end":8798.075,"text":"規範呢是應該提升應該提升至少不管是採取自律性的規範或者是一種協力性的規範應該要將他的規範的密度往上提升因為這個問題涉及到說我個人認為這個管不管的問題涉及到對言論自由對於這個言論市場的界定"},{"start":8798.995,"end":8821.922,"text":"過去當然因為電視時代因為這個要發照等等要經過NCC的同意要經過政府機關的同意它才能夠繼續延續下去那網路沒有這個限制那當然現在造成就是說因為電視的這個市場的狀況跟網路的狀況它們原本市場的狀況不太一致所以當然造成在競爭上面或在現在我們看到的很多型態上面兩者的"},{"start":8822.862,"end":8834.736,"text":"兩者的自由度是有差的所以如果您順利就任NCC的這個職位的話你是認為說網路要納進來呢我剛剛再明確一點我意思是說你覺得要把網路納進來還是說應該放寬對電視頻道的管制"},{"start":8839.2,"end":8858.513,"text":"我認為我個人當然這個要整個NCC的決策共識決定如果問我個人的話我認為是要做一個類似水平的調整就是太嚴格的是不是要做它的管制密度稍微的調降那麼就沒有規則的部分應該要提升"},{"start":8859.514,"end":8869.578,"text":"OK好那最後因為時間的關係我最後再問一下我想因為又提到有線電視因為前段時間我想有線電視時不時就發生一次啦就是頻道代理商跟有線電視業者之間會有爭議那當然過去"},{"start":8872.981,"end":8889.547,"text":"都會有這種針對可能是針對有限電視業者來裁罰那好像也沒有特別針對頻道代理商的問題就頻道代理商現在的問題是說我們常常講說為什麼我們在有限Cable台它不能自由的收拾是因為有這個頻道代理商會綁一整串的"},{"start":8890.807,"end":8918.528,"text":"這個頻道賣給地方的有線電視所以在收視群眾來講我不能自由的去選擇這個電視頻道那當然你用串流服務那是另外一件事情我講的是傳統的收視的這些觀眾所以未來如果您如果有機會就任NCC副主委的話您對於這件事情的態度是什麼你希望解開嗎還是說繼續維持現有的機制因為這個財法每次可能大概就對業者來說是幾百萬但這個利益我想是這個商議員的這個利益我想"},{"start":8919.088,"end":8937.481,"text":"相對比例來講不太一樣所以我不知道你對這個事情的態度是什麼我自己是從消費者這個角度來看的話應該要讓這個消費者有更大的選擇的空間而不是一個完全被迫接受的一個服務目前我理解的可能有若干的地方"},{"start":8938.061,"end":8955.025,"text":"已經有在推動所謂的分級付費的這樣的一個機制那當然這有正反不同的聲音以及不同的應該面對的這個地方上的挑戰但我我比較積極的樂見這樣的一個制度能夠比較廣泛的推行好謝謝謝謝陳老師謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員發言完畢現在請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":8969.68,"end":8977.228,"text":"謝謝主席主席請NCC副主任委員被提名人陳明修陳教授請陳被提名人"},{"start":8986.541,"end":9005.827,"text":"陳教授好 本學看到您在行政法學界深耕多年歷任公務人員保障及培訓委員會的專任委員還有文化部的溯源審議委員也擔任過企業的獨立董事那這樣的履歷顯示您在政府決策還有民間產業間都有相當的經驗還有人脈那正因如此 那社會"},{"start":9008.019,"end":9036.408,"text":"關注您如果進入NCC這個具高材料權的機關的時候要如何確認這些過往的關係不會產生利益糾葛或是影響公正呢謝謝委員的詢問如果剛剛所說的我目前所參與的工作基本上都不是在政策決定層面上面的工作而是純粹的法律救濟法規的研擬這個層次的法律專業的提供"},{"start":9038.129,"end":9056.639,"text":"包含我目前還擔任的獨立董事在業務面向上跟通常會歸管的業務基本上沒有直接的關係所以您認為這樣都不會產生任何利益糾葛跟影響嗎我自己目前是不會有這方面的疑慮"},{"start":9057.6,"end":9080.504,"text":"是那因為過去NCC被批評在部分媒體或是平台的案件上面他的裁罰選擇性強而且關係不明確那這些質疑不往往是針對法律然後也是針對個人或是公司企業那作為一個NCC作為一個獨立機關我們都不希望他看到有政治干預或是人脈干預還有關係的干預那是不是可以請您具體的回答如果您"},{"start":9081.96,"end":9093.288,"text":"就是在上任之前願不願意主動提出利益迴避的清單公開的列出這三年曾經合作過的還有諮詢過或是任職過的公司部門還有企業呢"},{"start":9094.698,"end":9112.718,"text":"我個人嗎當然沒問題當然沒問題因為這個不只是個人的生命也是讓就是社會有一個檢驗的依據那再來要請問您是否支持NCC建立委員利益的揭露與迴避名單呢我認為這也是必然的這也是必然的嗎如果您上任之後您願意來做這件事我認為是"},{"start":9114.199,"end":9143.799,"text":"是那因為NCC它的委員會的獨立性那不只是制度的保障那它也需要有透明化的體現那既然我們期待NCC是一個公信的建立者那委員部應該就是只有被動的依法迴避那我們希望都是可以主動的來揭露那本席一樣您我有看到您在書面的答播中有提到針對假訊息還有身為影印的問題您傾向於產業自律來作為主要的策略"},{"start":9144.379,"end":9170.754,"text":"那也認為應該要尊重平台還有業者的自我規範政府認為政府僅作為協調與教育的角色那這樣子的言論呢理論上它是有自由主義的基礎但是現實上面我們來看自律的機制它台灣根本沒有辦法有效的運作啊那我們現在因為看到也看到詐騙廣告還有假投資還有假的交友幾乎每天都在社群平台還有媒體上面出現"},{"start":9171.614,"end":9192.005,"text":"那行政院統計那一年呢被通報的疑似詐騙訊息超過30萬則其中有一半以上發生在社群平台那這些平台常在業者自律的名義下拖延處理或是拒絕結論或是拒絕回應那對民眾來說這根本是擺爛不作為那這邊要請教教授"},{"start":9192.765,"end":9210.056,"text":"那接下來呢如果您作為NCC的副主委如果NCC只停留在召開座談會促進協力的角色那這樣沒有辦法回應社會對於網路的治理的期待那您是否同意NCC應該要求大型的平台定期揭露透明的報告呢"},{"start":9212.531,"end":9238.59,"text":"從理念上我會支持這樣的做法但是實踐上面有沒有辦法達到這樣的這個結果或是時效性因為這裡面可能不是單純的只有公權力彰顯的問題他還會涉及到比較廣泛的比如說業者的相關的營業秘密上面的保護就理念上來講我可以支持往這個方向推進"},{"start":9239.366,"end":9255.308,"text":"是因為本席提到這個他的報告我們希望這報告裡面呢能包括假訊息移除的數量還有他的查核流程還有就這個部分是沒有問題的嗎那如果平台沒有改善的話那你是否贊成NCC有強制的裁罰或是下架的命令呢"},{"start":9257.856,"end":9271.509,"text":"就歸管的體制我們現在來看業者根本不會去自律的做到這件事那未來如果您上任之後您會如何的來要求業者裁罰當然是一個大家樂見的或者是比較利己的這個"},{"start":9273.09,"end":9288.315,"text":"管制的手段那但是一樣會遇到的問題是對於平台的這個制裁或者是對於他的管制是不是能夠確實找到可規則的對象這也是我們在建議相關制度時會面臨到的困境"},{"start":9289.648,"end":9309.897,"text":"因為現在很多民眾認為NCC如果只停留在要求業者自律還有宣導那這樣子NCC形同虛設那您要如何在尊重言論自由還有保障公共安全之間建立一個更有效的平衡剛剛委員所提到的是防堵防炸的假訊息這樣的問題"},{"start":9312.731,"end":9338.431,"text":"那目前我們一方面又期待對於言論的這個審查應該要相對的保留但是一方面又期待我們能夠有更積極的作為所以在這個管制的手段的選取上面單純的以介入裁罰的這樣的做法恐怕不是一個最好的選項那我剛剛也特別提到的一些公司部門的協力管制的模式陳教授因為時間的關係那本期再問一個問題"},{"start":9341.213,"end":9362.125,"text":"近年來社會對NCC的質疑其中是有沒有裁罰的依據為什麼罰這個不罰那個同樣是節目的偏頗還有假訊息有的媒體被重罰有的沒有有時候裁罰的理由只有一段摘要外界根本沒有辦法去判斷未來您是否支持NCC全面公開裁罰的決議書全文還有會議記錄"},{"start":9364.486,"end":9389.719,"text":"這個讓社會可以來做監理剛剛我有提到過一個獨立機關的公正性能不能獲得人民的支持他有相當多的一些輔助的機制而其中的透明化或資訊的揭露這是一個必要的做法那我也希望能夠朝這個方向去做努力但是在這個所謂的街市的量能上面也要考慮到機關的能力負擔那我"},{"start":9390.539,"end":9409.649,"text":"自己對於重要決定的這個程序上面以及決定內容意見上面的揭露我認為這是必要的好您認為這是必要的好謝謝您的說明謝謝好謝謝邱若驊委員質詢完畢現在請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":9431.65,"end":9445.684,"text":"好謝謝主席我們邀請那個陳明修副主委請陳備提名人委員好"},{"start":9446.343,"end":9473.859,"text":"陳教授你好 你長期研究這個憲法與行政法也曾經擔任行政院跟監察院的訴院審議委員那學術的關注核心在於行政管制與程序的正當性尤其是強調了政府在法治國原則下行使權限必須兼顧合法性與必要性那NCC作為一個跨越傳播數位以及行政監督的機關其實最常面臨的困難就是如何在合法核限的前提之下做出符合比例原則的一個積極決定"},{"start":9474.739,"end":9496.676,"text":"避免陷入一個依法不作為的僵局那我想問的並不是說NCC到底會不會違法而是當社會需要NCC行動的時候他會不會有勇氣去作為特別來說對於家長來說NCC的每一個決定都不是抽象的條文而已他是決定了孩子看到的每一個畫面聽到了什麼"},{"start":9497.917,"end":9524.411,"text":"所以呢這份表呢其實是NCC違反有限電視廣播法案才建的一個裁量基準我們可以看到這個判斷嚴重程度的依據只有規定違反的次數一次違規算嚴重兩次以上才算非常嚴重可是呢對於實際的違規樣態例如性質影響對象或者是社會的危害程度其實是沒有詳細一個細緻的區分"},{"start":9527.032,"end":9546.713,"text":"所以有些可能只是技術性的疏失有些可能是直接涉及了兒少的權益甚至是假訊息的傳播所以一次的錯誤可能只是因為程序上的疏漏但是一次的錯誤也有可能是傷害了一個孩子所以我想要請您說明你認為在這樣子的裁量機制之下是否會造成裁量怠惰有沒有可能"},{"start":9547.193,"end":9565.54,"text":"NCC可以在這樣子的裁量基準引入更多內容面的判斷要素呢例如是否涉及公共利益以及兒少權益是否有再犯風險或者是造成社會不特定的多數受害或者是違規對象的受眾結構以及對於社會影響程度來進行所謂的量化跟分級呢"},{"start":9566.771,"end":9580.086,"text":"謝謝委員 委員剛剛有提到我們擔任的一些目前協助政府部門的工作在疏遠的決定在法規的研擬上面您所提到的這個問題其實也是我極關心的問題點"},{"start":9582.447,"end":9604.006,"text":"一般的行政機關往往因為財閥的便利性會製作非常多的這樣的財閥基準減去了很多的行政成本的支出但是它會使得本應裁量的權限因此就被取而代之導致一個僵化的一個財閥會呈現出實質上違反正當性的這樣的結果"},{"start":9605.747,"end":9621.798,"text":"我自己对于裁量基准或裁罚基准的制定虽然可以当作认为它可以当作是一个裁罚辅助的工具但不以此为限机关和义务的裁量应该在这个裁罚基准的前提之下随着个案情境的差异性"},{"start":9622.438,"end":9642.063,"text":"他應該在法規的這個容許的裁罰範圍當中有個案裁量的空間那最好的方式當然是可以隨著裁罰的案件經驗的累積與時俱進的去調整他的裁罰的基準然後加入相應的權重加入相應的這些比例"},{"start":9642.814,"end":9668.402,"text":"好我這樣聽起來就是說其實副組委提名人是蠻支持我說的這樣子從內容面分類出更多樣態然後讓他可能根據相對的案量的累積之後去做一個更積極的量化那接下來我就想要跟副組委提名人再討論一下說這樣子的裁量怠惰呢在兒少保護問題上面是尤其的關鍵就是說在我們的兒少法第46條裡面呢"},{"start":9670.303,"end":9692.22,"text":"抱歉喔好像跳掉了抱歉這個這一頁好我們到下一頁就好下一頁 對就是說在我們兒少權法第46條裡面防害兒少身心健康被列為記者項目涵蓋範圍非常的廣從暴力血腥恐怖色情到錯誤資訊都有可能被納入那NCC呢依此條過去在介入的時候"},{"start":9692.64,"end":9722.46,"text":"社會的輿論其實常常出現兩極的評價有一部分覺得NCC太保守了有一部分又覺得NCC越學模糊但是在這樣子的灰色地帶NCC如果只求不會出錯反而可能會讓孩子一次又一次的暴露在傷害裡那這邊我就舉了幾個具體的例子就例如就是說苗栗國小的學童刺傷案我們可以在新聞看到完整的事發經過而且反覆的被播放那上個禮拜台北車站的性侵案也是都是在民眾強烈抗議之後才移除的"},{"start":9722.84,"end":9743.968,"text":"所以我想要強調這個移除不代表就不存在了因為很多人可能就把它備份下來所以那個傷害就是不可逆的所以我想要請教一下陳教授媒體報導範圍與影像呈現的一個界限問題到底要如何的去規範跟界定如果媒體主張說這是屬於真實的社會案件有它的新聞價值"},{"start":9745.208,"end":9756.48,"text":"NCC又認為畫面或語言不當導致兒少受影響的時候那裁量應該落在哪裡呢或是要以社會影響為核心還是以內容意圖作為判斷的標準"},{"start":9758.422,"end":9784.699,"text":"我想这里会涉及到媒体自律的问题以及万一进入到管制机关的裁罚时就我理解NC就这个问题的判断有他自己的内容审议的这个判断那要画出一条绝对的线恐怕在立法上面确实有他的困境但是在个案的判断上面应该可以尊重各"},{"start":9786.841,"end":9793.39,"text":"專業的這個委員他們在這個判斷上面可以去權衡到底所呈現出來的畫面是不是已經踩到紅線"},{"start":9794.093,"end":9819.862,"text":"好 那我接下來就想用三峽這個案例來跟您做討論我認為NCC應該要有更積極的一個作為就是說當時媒體去採訪了一個目睹整個事件的一個國中生然後這個鏡頭是直接拍到他的臉那我當時就有在衛福部質詢的時候要求他應該要跟NCC來合作通知媒體下架所以我要講的是說從法律來說這樣子的做法可能沒有直接違法但是我也認為NCC不應該只有以合法"},{"start":9820.262,"end":9841.22,"text":"作為唯一的判斷標準所以呢我會認為NCC在這件事情的作為是有點被動所以我們是不是可以期待NCC在這種相對於兒少保護的範圍可以建立更明確的保護規範以及採取更主動的行動因為我還是要必須再次強調就是說這些對於孩子的傷害是不可逆的"},{"start":9841.48,"end":9868.005,"text":"我非常贊成委員的這個想法那因為有關性侵的問題在這個衛務部這邊有相關的處理的可是一般性的在媒體的比較急速的處理上面目前在我們的衛管法有關法上面是確實比較沒有那麼立即處理的這個規範存在好那我們是不是未來可以來建立更積極明確的保護規範讓相關的行動可以更主動"},{"start":9868.832,"end":9894.805,"text":"我也期許可以在這邊有這樣的一個實現的可能好謝謝好謝謝張雅琳委員發言完畢現在請黃國昌委員黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在現在請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在現在請王美惠委員"},{"start":9895.953,"end":9913.499,"text":"王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在現在請蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在請林怡瑾委員 林怡瑾委員林怡瑾委員不在"},{"start":9914.279,"end":9930.257,"text":"現在請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在現在請高金素美委員高金素美委員高金素美委員不在現在請尤浩委員"},{"start":9931.586,"end":9955.715,"text":"猶豪委員猶豪委員不在現在請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在現在請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在被提名人陳明修先生之說明與答詢完畢結束"},{"start":9958.223,"end":9975.572,"text":"另外委員魯明哲、邱若驊、何欣淳、游浩、陳秀寶本日所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報本日會議結束22日星期三繼續開會休息"}]}},{"id":"16961","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16961","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68554f5580a36c7ffd6a61d7704d4bcb7d00aa126c40303dc279a19a0d1f29ba3795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查\n(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員羅明才等20人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-10-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-10-20T08:32:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T14:11:00+08:00","duration":20283,"影片長度":"05:38:03","委員發言時間":"08:32:57 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出席委員人數9人 移組法定人數 請主席宣布開會現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1668.706,"end":1696.974,"text":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年10月15日星期三9時至14時48分10月16日星期四9時至15時27分地點群賢樓大01會議室出席委員陳委員召之等15人列席委員委員范雲等17人列席官員10月15日勞動部部長等相關人員10月16日衛生福利部部長石崇良等相關人員"},{"start":1697.674,"end":1714.373,"text":"主席劉肇吉委員建國10月15日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請勞動部 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委員林月琴等16人提案委員何新淳等16人及委員邱若驊等16人提案第79條委員王玉明等24人提案第74條委員陳素月等16人及委員游皓等17人提案第80條委員顏寬恒等16人提案第71條11 委員王玉明等24人提案第76條及委員顏寬恒等16人提案第73條12 委員林月琴等16人委員邱若驊等16人委員陳素月等16人及委員游皓等17人提案第85條"},{"start":1903.999,"end":1916.228,"text":"委員何欣淳等16人提案第84條 委員王玉明等24人提案第80條 委員黃健庭等17人提案第49條括弧5保留條文1行政院提案第47條第49條第50條第52條第55條至第64條第66條至第71條第73條第74條及相關對應提案條文2"},{"start":1925.094,"end":1950.927,"text":"委員陳佩玉等19人提案第61條及委員林淑芬等25人提案第63條3 委員陳佩玉等19人提案第81條委員林淑芬等25人提案第82條委員侯孟凱等21人提案第72條4 委員陳佩玉等19人提案第84條及委員林淑芬等25人提案第85條2 行政院函請審議兒童托育服務法草案等29案尚未審查完略令則其繼續審查宣讀完畢"},{"start":1955.192,"end":1976.599,"text":"請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處好議事錄確定那第四本日會議議程為邀請環境部經濟部農業部內政部就太陽能光電板暗場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理之檢討進行專案報告並備質詢"},{"start":1981.321,"end":2010.016,"text":"审查委员赖瑞荣等16人委员陈婷飞等16人委员张志伦等17人委员王玉敏等24人台湾民众党党团委员黄建豪等19人委员牛许婷等25人委员罗明才等20人委员罗廷伟等17人分别拟据噪音管制法部分条文修正草案及9案以上专案"},{"start":2011.576,"end":2036.109,"text":"專題報告及法律案才綜合詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭資委員王振旭委員林月琴委員羅廷偉委員再來"},{"start":2037.25,"end":2062.552,"text":"介紹列席官員環境部部長彭啟明環境保護司司長徐淑芷大氣環境司副司長郭孟雲水質保護司司長王育彬國家環境研究院院長劉宗勇"},{"start":2065.277,"end":2091.142,"text":"資源循環署副署長林建三環境管理署副署長劉瑞祥經濟部次長賴建信能源署署長李軍理他可能會晚到一點再來就是水利署副署長黃洪普國營事業管理司專門委員林華宇"},{"start":2093.525,"end":2120.761,"text":"標準檢驗局檢任計政陳榮富產業發展署檢任計政童建強台灣電力股份有限公司副總經理孫愉華台灣糖業股份有限公司處長胡聰年台灣自來水股份有限公司處長陳文祥以及處長謝東穎"},{"start":2125.278,"end":2143.767,"text":"農業部次長黃昭清畜牧師司長李一千資源永續利用司副司長黃興達農田水利署主任秘書朱孝恩漁業署組長陳文生農糧署副組長饒美菊"},{"start":2152.322,"end":2179.973,"text":"農村發展及水土保持署副組長尹孝元林業及自然保育署的檢任繼政黃敬彥然後內政部國土管理署主任秘書歐振興而國家公園署主任秘書張維權警政署交通組副組長黃義三"},{"start":2183.376,"end":2208.982,"text":"交通部公共運輸及監理司專門委員趙敬偉公路局主任秘書林益聖法務部法治司副司長林黛麗然後補充介紹剛剛來到現場的林淑芬委員還有剛剛的這個能源署署長然後李軍理李署長"},{"start":2213.854,"end":2228.409,"text":"再來接著請提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘請陳昭資委員代表台灣民眾黨沒有不發言好那請羅廷偉委員說明"},{"start":2238.018,"end":2263.404,"text":"好 感謝召委今日排審 噪音管制法第28條條文修正草案噪音車輛長期以來對環境安寧造成嚴重的干擾早就該 早就該 早就該修正草案了不僅擾亂居民的休息也影響著學習甚至是孩童的生活品質為解決此問題維護民眾安寧以及空氣品質"},{"start":2267.125,"end":2290.726,"text":"各縣市政府陸續推出了進程專案科技執法甚至是聯合稽查相關的手段來杜絕改裝噪音的老民問題然而現行噪音管制法所訂定的噪音管制的標準以及對今民眾檢舉並經主管所通知以後仍未於定期限期"},{"start":2291.747,"end":2309.978,"text":"在地点上能够检验者所做的罚款整个额度均低于道路交通管理处罚条例第43条第1项第5款的规定所以今天我们照应管制法第26条第28条的条文修正"},{"start":2311.419,"end":2326.388,"text":"針對超出噪音管制的機動車輛強化相關的罰則本次的修法有兩個重點提高罰款金額將現行的額度由新台幣1800元到3600元以下調整為3600元以上"},{"start":2332.984,"end":2352.061,"text":"到三萬六千元以下以提高違規抑制的效果第二 增訂累犯處理的規定參考道路交通管理處罰條例四三條第四項的規定增訂於一年內違反兩次者得一送"},{"start":2352.802,"end":2379.479,"text":"公路監理機關調扣其駕照6個月加強嚇阻力最後感謝環境部對本案的支持也期盼召委能夠盡快的逐條審查共同來維護社會安寧以上謝謝羅廷偉委員說明接下來請環境部彭部長就本日會議議程專題報告及法律案並案報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2388.519,"end":2408.679,"text":"主席各位委員還有在座的各部會還有媒體朋友大家好由我來報告關於太陽能光電板暗場環評的機制還有保護區的廢棄物的管理的檢討那首先呢跟各位報告我們現在全世界的太陽光電板全世界的這個總裝置容量已經到年底可以到2800GW"},{"start":2410.18,"end":2427.787,"text":"那我們台灣大概目前到8月底的時候已經超過15GW大概佔了0.5%左右那全世界到目前為止都是在因為要符合淨零的一個目標所以大概每年都是以15到30%也就是說500到800GW之間都在成長當中"},{"start":2428.787,"end":2451.287,"text":"那我们台湾过去呢其实也经历了一个太阳光电板毁损的事件这个应该是全世界到目前为止最大规模的一个毁损总共在丹纳斯台风期间毁损了12.1万片那当然了这个是业者自己必须去清除但是也凸显了说我们在这个法规上面或者制度上面还是可以有进步的地方所以本部呢其实也跟经济部"},{"start":2451.727,"end":2466.412,"text":"也有積極的去協調希望能夠改進未來這種所謂的大型的一個光電板他必須要有一定的這個這種檢核的一個措施或是廢棄物清運的一個措施那其實當中那就遇到一些是是而非的言論其實我們當時"},{"start":2467.853,"end":2485.14,"text":"其實也遇到一些例如說光電板綻放的地方是不是有紅色的水那本部也積極的去這個檢查查驗那後來也把那個洪水證實是所謂的農地的一個腐殖酸所造成的並非說它是一個重金屬的一個嚴重的污染"},{"start":2485.58,"end":2510.618,"text":"那另外一個網路上有很多的訊息包含這隻鳥喝了紅色的水然後就倒閉那我們也馬上很快的就送警檢調單位查詢也確實證實是來自於對岸的一個假訊息那引發我們很大的一個恐慌那目前我們為了這樣的一個訊息能夠讓大家知道在本部的官網都有特別一個光電板的一個專區清理的一個專區讓大家可以知道"},{"start":2511.078,"end":2530.732,"text":"那當然啦這個光電板的設置呢在這個水域上這個水庫上面到底會不會有影響其實根據這個我們的這個農業部特別是他們針對這個光電廠的上中下游整個有一些偵測那大家有意見的就是介面活化劑那經過本部的水保師的討論驗證之後其實它是普遍存在環境當中"},{"start":2531.733,"end":2550.732,"text":"而且這次驗出來的結果跟標準值差異蠻大的是在一個偵測的極限當中它無法區別人為或是天然當中但是其實它並不是所謂的適應性的感官的物質本部會持續的來監控這樣的物質那另外一個大家最關心的是全球水面型的光電大概有多少"},{"start":2551.152,"end":2565.584,"text":"那我們很認真的統計了也查詢了大概全世界大概有上百個水面型的光電暗藏有的大概只有1MW差不多是一公頃左右有的呢可以到達新的話可能到達五六百MW大概五六百公頃"},{"start":2566.144,"end":2586.009,"text":"不過他們當地的這個水庫是比較大的每個國家場域不大一樣我們目前在國際上可以搜尋的到就是有鳳山 烏山頭還有阿公店三個水庫我相信可能陸續也有一些的這個水面型的一個光電那我們本部對於太陽光電的處理我們是負責在這種環評的一個階段"},{"start":2588.41,"end":2610.952,"text":"那過去的確在去年修法之前並沒有所謂的光電板要環屏全世界也沒有什麼太多的一個限制不過縱使沒有環屏它也必須取得地方政府的一個許可或是目的事業機關包含了出流水的管制 水土保持的計畫甚至包含能源署的環社檢核的一個機制都有在進行"},{"start":2611.573,"end":2631.756,"text":"只要有目的實業主管機關做成許可的準博才可以來開發其實有沒有環評我們也有主管機關在負責做這些事情那本部呢其實大家關注到各界都對於這個水面型的光電有意見我們也特別去搜尋了不過呢也跟各位報告因為我們的環評的機制是全世界蠻特殊的一個機制我們有否決權"},{"start":2632.637,"end":2654.07,"text":"然後也可以否決目的世衛主管機關跟很多的國家是不大一樣的但是本部還是針對這個議題我們認為必須很負責任的保護環境為第一個優先那本部在過去的今年的1月16號也公布了環評的對於這種太陽光的一個機制不過是針對這種敏感區域在山坡地等等要20MW"},{"start":2655.191,"end":2674.816,"text":"或是15公頃以上必須要環評這個是到目前為止我們所看到全世界相對比較嚴格的一個國家的制度那全世界對於水面型的光電環評根據本部努力收集的結果目前還沒有但是我們認為我們可以來討論來研議這些事情我們希望是不是可以年底能夠達到一個設定一個環評的一個目標"},{"start":2678.497,"end":2693.063,"text":"目前因為過去從民國98年一直到現在其實一開始只有針對重要的濕地的環評的規定到我們今年1月16號開始針對山坡地或是整個敏感區域的環評的規定我們因為泰納斯颱風過後"},{"start":2694.924,"end":2710.193,"text":"國人非常感到這個關注所以我們認為呢還是必須要以這個修訂為一個研議修訂來當成我們一個目標同時本部呢還有其他的環評的一個例如說碳補儲跟風存有一些試驗的有一些未來要做的也應該要來環評"},{"start":2711.033,"end":2735.263,"text":"所以本部正在進行這個每年年度的這個環評的研議的修正我們希望把它放進去不過這一定要以環境保護為優先科學數據為基礎取得社會共識來納入環評的研議那目前的這個檢討正在進行當中我們是10月31號以前歡迎各界提供各式各樣的一個意見有一些認定標準可以出來我們就可以進行公聽然後盡快的就可以來進行公告"},{"start":2735.783,"end":2748.076,"text":"第二個呢是水質把關其實水質把關呢是本部的這個水保師在負責的目前呢我們過去在針對每一個水庫特別是淨水廠都有進行整個水質的一個量測那針對這次烏山頭水庫呢其實包含了這個農業部都有相關的"},{"start":2753.241,"end":2767.874,"text":"本部是針對嘉南受損的光電滯洪池我們主動進行的一些量測那其實都是符合標準的那紅色積水 如我說的它是屬於土壤腐蝕酸所造成的那本部呢是針對民生用水所需要的水質的安全"},{"start":2768.314,"end":2793.655,"text":"所以我們針對例如說以舉例烏山頭水庫其實我們每一個淨水廠我們都有量測目前這個烏山頭水庫的下游的淨水廠水質都安全無虞而且我們是拿PFAS這個全服化合物的項目來檢而且包含了相關的新興污染物都是遠低於指引值我們以歐盟的標準為基準那針對這個光電板的環境衝擊研究其實本部"},{"start":2794.495,"end":2812.735,"text":"也因為感謝委員本委員會的委員在去年初的時候我們的附帶決議要求我們針對幾個水庫進行量測所以我們在今年的1月跟3月進行兩次的一個量測那我們兩側都沒有看到污染的一個風險那另外一個我們進行了一個極端的一個試驗"},{"start":2813.476,"end":2827.329,"text":"什麼是極端的實驗呢左邊是我們量測這個所謂的現場實測的水質然後另外一個是模擬溶出的實驗這個第一個是經過破壞的條件之下在酸性條件之下看有沒有重金屬釋出"},{"start":2828.43,"end":2850.435,"text":"第二個是光電板經過破壞經過浸泡三個月之後看有沒有重心組釋出目前像這個程序是非常難做的我們的同仁我們國環院是負責做這個事情他們把光電板收集到了之後把它破碎這個破碎基本上用人工是無法破碎都要用機器來破碎最後破碎的樣品經由相關的溶出的實驗"},{"start":2851.255,"end":2878.151,"text":"符合這個相關的失業廢棄物的毒性的特性的溶出的程序來進行目前這個報告我們上禮拜五本部有一個記者會公開跟大家說明所有數據都是符合飲用水的標準但是我不代表說這個溶出之後我們可以拿來喝這個是不允許的基本上我們是不希望但是本部是針對我們的民眾所喝的進水廠有沒有遭受到可能的風險進行一個量測都是符合安全的那未來我們要怎麼做其實國人對於"},{"start":2879.732,"end":2904.691,"text":"這個光電板還是有一些疑慮所以我們特別請我們的國家環境研究院本部下面的國家環境研究院能夠來啟動長時間的研究調查希望未來一兩年內有一些初步的結果那這個呢就希望整合國內所有進行相關的不管是能源或是製造或是相關的這個學者環境影響的學者包含的土地利用 水質 水質跟水環境"},{"start":2905.231,"end":2920.24,"text":"生物系跟生態系例如說有些人認為光電板上面在水庫有光電板是可以減少這個蒸發的減少蒸發的對於這個優氧化是有幫助的但是也有人有一些反對的意見我們希望有一些更好的充分的討論跟調查"},{"start":2921.261,"end":2933.991,"text":"或是說它影響到我們國家的氣候或是微氣象它包含特別熱甚至呢也有人告訴我們說光電板它本身排碳量比較高反而是不環保的我們可以統一的來進行計算或是說它對於這個視覺的景觀"},{"start":2938.414,"end":2958.322,"text":"民眾的這個生活會造成衝擊到底如何去避免這個都要研究那另外一個呢是關鍵板施工當中也有一些噪音或是施工的衝擊這個也要另度評估最後一個呢就是退役回收跟長期的監測這個也是必須要考量在裡面的所以我們目前初年的八個面向我們希望未來呢一兩年內"},{"start":2959.062,"end":2977.698,"text":"能夠經由我們國家環境研究院統轄各個學術專業的部門一起來提出一個比較完整的報告讓國人可以在這個平台裡面進行討論也就是說我們希望能夠確保用可量化用科學的方式能夠來討論這樣的一個問題那第二個呢是針對這個最近的環保的犯罪的問題"},{"start":2979.042,"end":2997.702,"text":"也跟大家報告我們對於犯罪破壞環境就是一種罪這個是我們非常堅持的所以在過去這一年多檢警還掉過去就已經很積極在做但是這次我們更積極的希望能夠來進行所以目前環保犯罪是零容忍的所以我們破獲的量是非常的多那針對目前這幾次這幾個月發生的整個"},{"start":3000.765,"end":3026.099,"text":"這種所謂亂置廢棄物的問題本部在五月的時候跟內政部還有法務部合開一個記者會其實我們從去年年底開始我們就針對土方廢棄物的解決方案提出了四個方式來進行第一個是去化的量能一定要趕快找出來哪裡可以去化第二個要管理的強度第三個是智慧圍籬第四個就是本部在推動的啟動修法作業包含了廢清法"},{"start":3026.479,"end":3046.311,"text":"或是資源循環推動法希望能夠在裡面所以內政部也提供相關的一個法規的制度我們希望因為這個營建剩餘土石幫跟廢棄物是我國到目前為止都沒有一個完善的解決方式那我們其實也注意到這個問題所以5月有提出來了那我們期待是在明年1月1號開始能夠來進行"},{"start":3048.152,"end":3068.823,"text":"那現在呢其實我們已經在還沒有開始執行的時候其實已經結盟在一起所以各位看到很多非法的案件也都是檢警環調這個平台能夠破獲出來的我們是希望能夠找到上游把這個關係人可以找到不是只有找到開車的這個司機而已希望把整個鏈因為這個其實是有利可圖的"},{"start":3069.403,"end":3085.089,"text":"那其實這樣破壞環境就是一種罪我們絕對不手軟的會來進行這個事情我們也把這相關的非法棄置各種的環保案件都特別放在網路上面就是要周遭讓大家知道這個是會有重罰的也會有後面的很大的刑責在裡面"},{"start":3085.669,"end":3113.119,"text":"那未來呢 關於本案本委員會委員許多提到了一個噪音管制修正法我們非常感謝各位委員提供這樣的執法的工具給我們因為我們過去從源頭末端加強管制都有在推動但是呢 其實相關的如果這個法則可以更清楚更重的話多管齊下管制噪音車我相信都可以提升台灣的這個安靜的程度會顯著的增加本部也競表支持委員的各種提案 謝謝"},{"start":3121.678,"end":3124.321,"text":"謝謝彭部長請經濟部賴次長報告時間5分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":3134.759,"end":3154.999,"text":"主席各位委員大家好城門委員會就太陽能光電版暗場的環評機制進行報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指教首先跟各位說明的是接軌國際淨零排放的這個趨勢國際上皆是以太陽能光電為推動的重點之一"},{"start":3155.865,"end":3170.31,"text":"在全球能源轉型及淨零排放的目標下再生能源已經逐步成為各國電力系統中主要的電力來源依照國際再生能源總署的統計資料截至2024年底"},{"start":3172.901,"end":3189.321,"text":"全球再生能源的裝置容量已經達到4943GW佔整體的電力的裝置容量46%再創歷史新高而2024年全球新增的再生能源容量"},{"start":3190.582,"end":3212.787,"text":"達到585GW其中太陽光電更達452GW預佔7成左右顯示再生能源已經成為各國提升能源自主實現永續發展的核心手段而光電的發展是最為快速其次太陽光電是一個低強度的開發行為"},{"start":3214.327,"end":3232.085,"text":"各國皆將太陽光電為再生能源發展的重點項目截至2024年底為止我國太陽能光電發展裝置容量達到14.28GW佔再生能源總裝置容量21.07GW之比重"},{"start":3235.428,"end":3263.221,"text":"達到68%與鄰近的先進國家比如說日本日本的光電佔比69%韓國光電的佔比佔了79%約略相當持續趨勢顯示太陽光電已經成為全球跟我國不可或缺重要的電力來源之一第二點跟各位報告的是我國光電的環評標準比其他國家更為嚴格"},{"start":3264.622,"end":3273.336,"text":"世界各國都視太陽光電為低強度的開發行為影響的強度遠低於其他開發行為但是"},{"start":3274.656,"end":3301.274,"text":"国际也没有把它列为应办还品的事项或仅针对一定规模以上的光电设施采用相对密度低的管制措施国际光电的还品分为三种形态第一个德国设置太阳能光电无需办理还品第二种类型新加坡是由主管机关依照个案来决定是否办理还品"},{"start":3302.154,"end":3324.02,"text":"第三类是亚洲比如说是日本韩国分别以40MW跟100MW作为是否办理环屏的分界并没有针对复合型光电要求办理环屏第三点我跟各位说明的是我国光电的环屏标准第29条已经将太阳光电"},{"start":3325.603,"end":3332.254,"text":"涉及到特定的區域應辦理環評比如說是國家公園野生動物保護區重要濕地"},{"start":3334.025,"end":3361.806,"text":"沿海保护的敏感区设置一定规模以上的山坡地必须要办理环平相较于其他国家已经较为严格第三 跟各位说明光电的生设有相关的法规做严谨的把关近期对于地面及屋顶型的光电已经有强化灾害的防灾能力另外对水库的光电也有水质的监测以确保符合标准"},{"start":3362.406,"end":3380.747,"text":"那現行的光電的生設有嚴謹的程序除了電業的審查之外還有必須要經過區域計劃法非都市計劃法土地使用管制規定甚至是其他規定的要求至於在災害的防災的部分"},{"start":3382.439,"end":3410.491,"text":"針對地面型經濟部已經修法針對20MW以上的光電廠在申請合法電位執照前依照災害防救法提報防災計畫經能源署來核定那相關的防災計畫的審查的重點包括業者電線防災的這個規劃暗場的防災措施甚至是廢棄物的暫置規劃以及模組的回收等等"},{"start":3412.028,"end":3415.474,"text":"那至於屋頂型的部分我們也在今年7月4號預告"},{"start":3417.321,"end":3445.143,"text":"侦测安全跟定期检查的规范要求模组跟支撑的结构正背面都可以提高高抗压比如说是17西方的这个检验标准那水库的光电它设置之后亦严谨要求用清水的冲洗全程不使用清洁容器然后定期检测水样那经过检测的结果都符合标准没有污染水质的情况"},{"start":3447.184,"end":3473.995,"text":"經濟部會持續的跟各界溝通以科學驗證的角度包括收集國際的資訊後續配合環境部的會商的這個程序來確定相關的修法的依據那對於工協會跟社會各界我們也保持密切的溝通那希望提供相關的數據跟大家建立相關的共識以上報告進行指教謝謝大家"},{"start":3476.508,"end":3478.154,"text":"謝謝謝謝次長請農業部黃次長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":3491.21,"end":3506.418,"text":"主席各位委員大家好本部就太陽能光電板暗場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理之檢討進行專案報告 敬請各位委員不吝指教本部農業綠能政策秉持著農業為主 綠能加值"},{"start":3506.798,"end":3521.566,"text":"的這個主軸在確保農民權益促進農業發展及維護生態環境的這個前提下優先推動農業型屋頂設施的太陽能光電再逐步發展地面型餘電共生兼顧糧食生產及能源轉型達到農業綠能目標務實的這個達成使農業跟綠能能夠共存共榮"},{"start":3529.33,"end":3551.778,"text":"我國在有關於這個綠能 農業綠能的推供情形我國在115年太陽能光電的這個裝置容量目標為20GW其中農業綠能呢 肩負了9GW目前已經完工的有3.97GW在各類型施工中的有1.56GW申請中的有1.69GW"},{"start":3553.359,"end":3572.77,"text":"如果加計這個經濟部所列管的農地變更設置的這個光電設施1.5GW的話那所有的這個農地設施太陽能光電裝置容量約為8.72GW那另外呢本部透過法規還有這個農地盤點等做法避免光電設施影響到農業生產的這個環境"},{"start":3575.411,"end":3596.387,"text":"本部的这个农业容许使用审查办法里面呢针对农业绿能设施必须基于农业用地的生产事实并且与农地使用具有相容性使得以容许的方式来在农地上设置光电那在现行的这个容许办法在推动地面型的这个光电呢"},{"start":3596.767,"end":3620.142,"text":"主要以渔电共生跟不利农业经营区来设置光电这两类为主那渔电共生选址是由本部来盘点具有这个渔业经营结合绿能可能性的这个区位送经济部办理这个环境与社会减和机制之后再由经济部会同本部来公告至于不利农业经营区是由地方政府"},{"start":3620.526,"end":3634.85,"text":"依據地層嚴重下陷 長年淹水 土壤研化這些已經不是在做農業耕作的這些地形地貌呢導致近5年沒有農業經營適時的區塊來進行盤點並且在104年到107年之間公告那目前已經沒有在做相關這個不利農業經營區的這個公告了"},{"start":3643.692,"end":3668.07,"text":"如果光電暗場位於農業水庫那應該以不以影響灌溉水庫安全蓄水功能以及不污染環境為前提下使得設置那以台南烏山河水庫為例光電的這個設施器材水面浮力式的所以太陽能板吸用浮桶鋪設於水面之上面板並不直接接觸水體那太陽能板也均通過國際檢驗的這個標準不會釋出或滲出液體"},{"start":3671.573,"end":3685.557,"text":"那太陽能板的這個清洗呢則以清水進行嚴禁任何使用任何的清潔劑藥水化學藥劑那本處的本部的農田水利署嘉南管理處也會每年定期的進行水質監測那維護這個環境監測的結果均符合標準水質並沒有受到影響"},{"start":3691.559,"end":3707.688,"text":"另外有關於太陽能光電案場的環境影響評估已結那根據環境部所修訂的這個開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定那目前呢在這個農業特定區之用地 散播用地"},{"start":3708.608,"end":3728.14,"text":"主要的這個標準在20MW以上或15公頃以上的情形應納入這個環境影響的這個評估又如果光電廠遇於山坡地那應依水土保持法那你據水土保持計畫送主管機關審核後實施如果散開的這些標準應該送環境影響評估者那並應令檢部環境影響評估審查一併送審"},{"start":3732.122,"end":3755.34,"text":"那相關的這個經濟作為為了審核這個農地容許的這個部分本部於今年的2月修訂了這個預告修訂這個農業容許辦法如果你所送的這個計畫書未符合這個原原核定的這個計畫的話明定在3個月內限期改善得展延一次也就是說在6個月內如果沒有"},{"start":3756.361,"end":3774.97,"text":"欠期改善的话那我们急废止他的容许并通知能源主管鸡瓜继续候处那另外呢为了让农地变更做太阳能光电还有这个对农业生产生态环境的影响降到最低所以本部与也是在今年2月跟经济部共同的这个"},{"start":3775.97,"end":3792.514,"text":"公告了農業用地變更為設置太陽能光電適宜性的這個快篩表那針對土地的這個合適性排除第一級的敏感區特定農業區還有農業施政投入區位等這些一定不能夠作為這個光電使用的農地呢先行公告以減少業者這個投資的浪費那另外有關於這個水土保持法的這個規定呢"},{"start":3800.956,"end":3821.943,"text":"本部基於中央主管機關的立場呢運用衛星影像拿捷岸月的這個監控有疑似的如果越界開發相關的事情會立即通報縣市政府依法查處以嚇子不當的這個行為那本部為了確保農食糧食安全以及農地資源的永續利用明定農業綠能設施的設置規範在兼顧糧食安全與這個環境生態的前提下"},{"start":3827.565,"end":3831.948,"text":"實地達成農業與綠能共融發展的目標 以上報告謝謝黃次長報告有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始詢答做以下宣告"},{"start":3848.396,"end":3870.324,"text":"第一本會委員尋答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘第二10點半截止發言登記第三委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理第四暫定10點半休息10分鐘第五本日不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位第一位的委員陳昭資委員發言"},{"start":3876.715,"end":3879.756,"text":"世界主席有請部長 彭部長陳委員早 部長早 部長你剛剛也有報告到 當然是颱風撞到南台灣的一些光電廠址那你談的是光電板的數量 這樣我聽到是20萬但是我要談的是它是超過2000噸的廢棄物那經濟部次長在同月 7月的時候 16日備詢的時候他向黃國昌委員說"},{"start":3904.022,"end":3926.516,"text":"已經完成99%的清理但是根據媒體的報導部長請看複圖記者在10月份實地走訪災場發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在土壤裡我想請問部長你作為全國組長環境保護的最高機關你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎清理完成了99%嗎"},{"start":3928.981,"end":3956.622,"text":"感謝委員的意見這個新許我有看到我有特別跟我的同仁查驗因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍的確沒有看到這樣的一個情況不過因為當地是一個開放的場域我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方謝謝部長我是說首長在回答備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細"},{"start":3958.383,"end":3973.298,"text":"99%清理那就是全部清理完了那清理現場其實是業者的第一線工作了但部長我必須這樣講這段時間我有發現環境部不斷的用部的名義來幫這個業者背書你就說他們都非常努力"},{"start":3974.039,"end":3994.25,"text":"在清理現場 就是我不只聽您講過這樣一次那既然環境部願意幫雲報旗下的業者背書那我要請教環境部是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為業者背書呢好 報告委員我沒有背書 我重罰我重罰 這樣最後一家他沒有清理的速度很慢我們罰了900萬"},{"start":3996.291,"end":4004.537,"text":"我沒有背書是重罰那當然我要鼓勵他說拜託你輕快一點你應該說你會好好監督嘛因為你是跟著對著這個立法委員在回答這個問題你認為他們都很努力了盡力了然後我也問到你說這個費用誰處理嘛將來我也會追究這個費用都他們出我們沒有政府沒有出去冒錢"},{"start":4016.304,"end":4040.199,"text":"這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間多在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元"},{"start":4041.9,"end":4057.647,"text":"捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長址都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛"},{"start":4058.547,"end":4081.267,"text":"所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性 您認為這是對的嗎"},{"start":4083.563,"end":4102.896,"text":"報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK"},{"start":4107.138,"end":4128.632,"text":"當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡"},{"start":4132.557,"end":4156.289,"text":"那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種"},{"start":4157.309,"end":4183.868,"text":"這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒才會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底"},{"start":4184.983,"end":4209.06,"text":"到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好 包委員 這個其實有幾個層次第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈 要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點"},{"start":4209.6,"end":4226.708,"text":"那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便清運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的"},{"start":4227.588,"end":4248.481,"text":"直接露天這個是不願意被允許所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質文教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項左邊有11項但是他的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準"},{"start":4249.542,"end":4265.84,"text":"那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了"},{"start":4270.885,"end":4298.23,"text":"甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊"},{"start":4298.75,"end":4323.662,"text":"我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調謝謝部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場 案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢"},{"start":4324.362,"end":4349.156,"text":"對 這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到告一段落之後我們一定會來做因為過去沒有思考嘛但是現在要積極改變嘛那先請法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段"},{"start":4350.717,"end":4366.937,"text":"就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個關聯案場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎"},{"start":4367.558,"end":4382.995,"text":"有 這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提過要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被詢的時候黃國昌總召說"},{"start":4385.057,"end":4407.963,"text":"他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難"},{"start":4408.843,"end":4434.828,"text":"卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2"},{"start":4436.469,"end":4448.704,"text":"那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘"},{"start":4451.627,"end":4473.758,"text":"正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商"},{"start":4474.438,"end":4500.972,"text":"那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊"},{"start":4502.333,"end":4529.885,"text":"都要由你來收拾啊 部長由你來收拾欸 所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評 上後視你你覺得公平嗎 如果這樣你還不思考 還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對 報告委員 我們就是這個是現在進行式 我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告 不管藍綠 不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠 那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行 這是我的態度"},{"start":4530.796,"end":4548.775,"text":"好 部長 你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了嘛 是所以要積極介入好嗎 好 沒問題這是環境署稱環境部的很重要的原因嘛好 謝謝委員 好 謝謝我們會做 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員請陳清惠委員發言"},{"start":4556.551,"end":4559.262,"text":"謝謝主席我也請部長 謝謝請彭部長"},{"start":4564.74,"end":4587.99,"text":"陳委員好我7月16號的時候在這邊諮詢過那那個時候獲得了幾個資訊就是第一個屏東這個飄散的福台啊我拿到了廠商企劃書第二就是說光電板應該要納入因回收項目這個你8月初有預告嘛對不對不過我是從去年3月份就提案到現在過了一年半終於要做了"},{"start":4588.57,"end":4604.895,"text":"好剛也有講到很多環評你之後要做一個總體檢光電的環評要加嚴提出一個修法的方向這個我等一下再慢慢吸問你但有一個很重要的是我讓你回憶一下所以我們先看一個影片我跟你要了一個清單"},{"start":4606.095,"end":4627.036,"text":"你說九月初會給我但到現在已經快要十一月了你還是沒有辦法拿出來我希望片片要回收這件事情我們可以看得到你實際的做法清單裡面就包括廢棄的光電板有失蹤的要告訴我們失蹤的幾片然後提早廚藝的都很不積極很擺爛"},{"start":4628.257,"end":4642.633,"text":"好 我們從頭開始讓你稍微回憶一下你現在告訴我們說是這個意思嗎 部長你好您前幾天說如果這個廠商沒有辦法把嘉義的這些光電板清完環境部就要接手了 我們會覺得說"},{"start":4643.134,"end":4645.575,"text":"我跟這位網友是不認識的但他覺得自己很委屈部長 您是認為他在造謠嗎"},{"start":4663.68,"end":4689.82,"text":"好 委員我們是依據廢清法我們會進行代位求償如果我們9月5號前沒有清那個要代位求償不是我們政府要出錢的那我們編在這個16E裡面呢主要是處理食棉這最主要的廢棄物沒有包含光電板跟各位委員保證光電板是零好 這個廠商之前我們有跟你去考察你說很不積極 很擺爛他把光電板的浮台繳稅違反廢清法不在乎被你罰300萬你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償是這個意思嗎他認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心但是告訴我們我們已經罰了900萬了後面就是300萬一張的罰單"},{"start":4692.142,"end":4704.738,"text":"每一片光電板都會有序號也就是他的身分證正號當初您說失蹤的 廢棄的 需要回收的真的到年限了 您也會告訴我八月底之前 您覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎可能要到九月中九月中 好 我再修改"},{"start":4706.854,"end":4726.247,"text":"當時我們是說9月中現在快要11月了我始終一直沒有看到這個清單所以全國人民不知道因為一個風災到底有多少光點板會提早除役到底有多少找不回來到底有哪些是正正式式的被回收回來的按照規定的你現在可以給一個答案因為我已經問三次了"},{"start":4726.727,"end":4755.559,"text":"報告委員關於那個因為我們剛剛有一個數字12.1萬片齁那其實有多少片是進到回收場裡的那有1.2萬片是還在堆置然後他準備要送到送到這個回收去做處理那這個部分呢因為每一個光電板都有序號其實這個序號的處理是經濟部能源署在負責當中那他們告訴他們說會一點時間因為那個幾萬片啦不是幾十片所以目前呢他們說還要給我一點點時間才能夠全面給我因為我也在追這個事情"},{"start":4757.862,"end":4767.535,"text":"所以是甚麼時間我一直在等他們所以能源署有要上來回答嗎你們有要上來幫忙回答嗎還是沒有"},{"start":4773.197,"end":4793.608,"text":"經濟部有市長代表還有能源署我們需要知道我們需要知道你哪一些是提早除役的然後我們又需要再添購新的光電板哪一些是真正試試回收哪一些是他到年限除役的哪一些是失蹤的大家很在意的是最後你沒有找回來的序號到底有幾片嗎"},{"start":4794.528,"end":4823.406,"text":"因為現在很多記者都已經拍到啦蓄洪池裡面還有海裡面還有山裡面還有啊跟委員說明我們現在太陽能這個光電的這個暗場大概在丹納斯颱風的時候受損的大概依照我的印象中應該有33個暗場占整體的裝置量的千分之四左右那整體的影響的這個所謂的光電板的片數大概是12.1萬片左右"},{"start":4824.006,"end":4841.08,"text":"至於你剛剛講的是說哪一些是要除疫的哪一些是因為我們太陽能的這個發展是近幾年來才開始陸續的發展那因為太陽能光電板它是一個非常穩定的一個物質因為它的使用壽命還有達到20年左右到目前為止的話還沒有"},{"start":4841.527,"end":4867.993,"text":"應該是還沒有處理的還沒有處理的案子對 所以他們很多其實是提早被回收了嘛 對吧你的意思是這樣嗎因為需要汰換的時候提早回收沒有 我說因為風災那風災的話這已經有清理了也到這個所謂的我們環境部所指定的那失蹤的呢回收的這個場地失蹤的呢那這個要可能要一個序號一個序號來做比對啦我剛剛講的說12.1萬片嘛"},{"start":4871.62,"end":4892.478,"text":"對所以你現在你們兩個都講不出什麼時候可以給清單清單的部分因為現在有幾個去處然後這個我們會跟這個環境部來合作是不是容我們這個會後再提供給委員好不好多久這個要看他們這個回收進來半年一年比例"},{"start":4895.18,"end":4921.53,"text":"因為他 何國委員這個一片一片是我有看到啦但是如果要12.1萬片齁那個數 那個量真的很大因為我們有一直要求說沒關係啊 你也可以說一年啊我不能這樣 但是我們會努力去追查啦委員我知道你希望我們可以給我會努力能夠追到這個數字因為我也很想看因為的確有些是整個碎掉了然後那個可能用論金種可能有多少的量那大概可以算得出來"},{"start":4921.83,"end":4941.819,"text":"對 因為大家也想關心有多少是最後找不到或是被違法碎掉的連你都有看到嗎報告委員 不會有違法碎掉的每一頁都清楚像這幾個 委員你看到這幾個我這幾天特別請我同仁確定9月6號有沒有拍照片其實9月6號我們清查的時候沒有這個照片因為那個是一個開闊的場地"},{"start":4943.22,"end":4954.909,"text":"所以是不是9月6號以前拍或是之後拍或是說誰都可以進去或是說他被這個下大雨之後這個被沖刷出來也有可能所以這個部分我們這禮拜會再去調查本來他在圖裡後來他被沖刷以後就露出來了但沒關係因為你的副署長林建三他就直接說"},{"start":4962.515,"end":4984.694,"text":"如果現場的狀況是像這樣子的確還可以再依照廢清法來裁罰好我們剛剛已經看影片了你說你罰了300萬900萬但是你要罰到他們清完為止可是很顯然的已經有陸陸續續蠻多記者在各地都有拍到請問你要不要換別招因為看起來你說你要罰到他們清完為止好像沒有什麼"},{"start":4985.414,"end":5004.375,"text":"我們9月6號的確是有查那我這禮拜也會請我們同仁再去看過一次是不是突然又跑出來 或是說因為這個是開過的場地 誰都可以去的嘉義縣已經額外開罰了是不是所以又罰了嘛 對不對所以900又往上了嘛 是吧對不對 同一家廠商是不是"},{"start":5005.718,"end":5014.349,"text":"是同樣一家廠商 對嘛但是他是那個就是說遺留在現場沒有清理的部分那嘉義縣他已經看過了也跟我們南區住宅大隊就看過了有開花單了"},{"start":5016.357,"end":5038.603,"text":"好部長我只是要問你你上次跟我的答詢你是說你很有決心你要罰到他們親王為止可是很顯然的就沒有辦法包委這個是事後有一些小的因為那個委員那個面積你也去看過你的意思就是說事後有一些小的其實你還是就是會陸續開罰就對了對會去處理一定會去處理那我們也可以之後再跟你們要最後你們開罰幾件對不對"},{"start":5040.363,"end":5060.309,"text":"對 當然這個是地方環保局在協助在開發這個是剛剛陳昭芝委員提到過的那我先追問啦它這個塑膠微粒啊因為你的報告裡面有寫你把光電板打碎然後泡在水裡面你們去驗那這個水質是沒事的但是你是不是有沒有考慮每三個月 每六個月"},{"start":5061.169,"end":5084.197,"text":"同樣的你還要再驗因為你在意的像上次被繳稅的福台可能也有塑膠微粒雖然報告裡面沒有很詳細你驗了哪些但我相信你有驗中金屬類你有沒有驗塑膠微粒塑膠微粒它的方法學全世界都還在確定當中那目前這個塑膠微粒的計算都是在實驗室的討論是不是請我們國環院院長來做一個快速的講"},{"start":5086.859,"end":5109.953,"text":"我們目前做的是對環境風險比較高的重金屬那塑膠微粒這個東西的檢測因為現在還在發展中所以目前那個是困難度比較大好 塑膠微粒沒有驗 好 知道了那部長我想問你既然會驗它有沒有打碎裡面有重金屬你有沒有考慮三個月後 六個月後因為可能有一些光電板的確是掉在其他找不到的地方了"},{"start":5110.273,"end":5128.201,"text":"那他三個月後六個月後就會試這個可能我們也可以擔心的物質會釋出來那個是一個極端值的實驗不是說那個可以拿來喝喔因為那個是極端我們是把它整個碾碎 碾碎變成粉這樣在處理的對啊 但是久了它是不是會釋出來這個是大家在意的嘛這當然 這當然"},{"start":5129.221,"end":5157.8,"text":"你會做嘛對不對因為這個是屬於廢棄物的研議我會請我們同仁來設計一個科學的實驗這不是說我覺得要幾個月因為藏任何的東西例如說我把我的手機放到水裡面當然都會有污染那剛剛你講到說你也會列入暗場防災救災設計的要求那這個的話你的時程大概是怎麼樣規劃這個是能源署他已經有相關的規定了剛剛這個次長也有說20MW以上"},{"start":5159.981,"end":5185.451,"text":"但是環評 剛在講防災跟救災這一些的光電業者必須要做災防計畫對啊 我說你的時程你預計什麼時候希望他們具備災防的計畫我們已經公告然後已經要處理了那現在就是開始在做這一些事好 那接下來這個水庫型的光電板我也想問一下"},{"start":5188.272,"end":5211.138,"text":"這個應該部長你有關心到這個新聞我有去鳳山水庫看那個光電板但是因為有網友還有當地的居民告訴我說他們感覺生態鳥變少了還有岩鼠變少了好我就給你看一下之前他曾經被內政部列為重要的失地但是呢108年卻取消了重要的失地"},{"start":5211.798,"end":5235.599,"text":"那因為其實在失地法裡面就有規定說如果要開發的話會需要環評他取消重要失地以後這個光電板暗場就建起來了我現在想問為什麼列為失地跟取消失地裡面沒有環境部的角色你有沒有覺得很奇怪這個是內政部主責的 失地是內政部主責的我想問你的觀點嘛"},{"start":5239.346,"end":5268.579,"text":"因為這個很詭異的是這個報告他取消了當時重要失地的報告裡面呢他甚至有提到這個失地裡面有一級的保育類動物比如說油準跟白尾海鵰還有二級的保育類動物類似什麼什麼什麼他都有列出來喔他就是一個失地分析報告表他這個失地分析報告表講完了以後說有一級保育生物二級保育生物結果最後他就禁制取消他被列為重要失地"},{"start":5269.904,"end":5291.902,"text":"我想聽環境部的觀點會不會認為濕地列入或者是濕地要被取消難道環境部裡面沒有角色嗎報告委員 這個其實是有一個我們政府裡面有一個濕地的小組在審議委員會來認定是不是那我相信我們環境部也在也有一個角色在進行我知道台水 台水今天有來對不對台水"},{"start":5298.635,"end":5319.594,"text":"台水回答了出來為什麼當初會把他從重要濕地沒有列上去取消他的這個重要濕地嗎因為你的這個報告書裡面明明就有寫他有一級二級保育類生物你要回答嗎跟委員說明喔台水公司啊所管理的鳳山水庫啊他是一個早期台水公司"},{"start":5321.495,"end":5348.021,"text":"開發的一個水庫他是主要是來供給工業用水為主的那這個水庫也依照水利法有一個明確的定義所以剛剛委員所提到的這個失地的所謂的認定的部分那內政部在做的失地的認定他會召集的各部會然後依照科學的數據跟專家的評估跟法規的要求我知道我只是簡單想問你為何取消"},{"start":5348.661,"end":5369.751,"text":"因為它就是水庫水庫的管理的話它在水利法的管理已經有一個很明確的標準我們全國90幾座水庫裡面不管是對於水庫的水質或是水庫蓄水範圍的使用其實它都有比相關的特別的作用法還有更嚴謹的要求包括安全 包括水質的部分"},{"start":5370.356,"end":5398.014,"text":"我知道啊但是濕地保育法就是說如果你開發它的話你就必須要經過環評所以它中間就取消了它是濕地嘛水利法這我都不是你現在講的是濕地但是現在水庫的話水庫依照它的蓄水範圍比如說是環評法的認定的標準在水庫的蓄水範圍裡面相關的這些的開發它當然也有受到相關嚴謹的規範"},{"start":5400.336,"end":5423.429,"text":"好沒關係台水要回答嗎報告委員那剛才所次長所講的大概就是我們那個時候解除的一個原因其實台水公司是被動的然後也就是說當在整個失地的一個審查的時候我們是提供我們的意見然後尊重委員會最後的一個決議以上"},{"start":5423.829,"end":5444.665,"text":"沒關係我等一下再跟你索取當時你們是怎麼做這決定因為你的報告寫到的是他生態其實是蠻重要的但最後是解除失地報告委員這個資料可能要跟內政部要因為他是失地的一個主管機關最後再請環境部部長"},{"start":5446.348,"end":5466.495,"text":"部長這個我知道你親身都有去過就是高雄我們從1月就開始被堆置一大堆廢棄物的碼頭山還有梅農大峽谷這個梅農大峽谷根據當地的居民講應該是開挖了一兩年以上那這個廢棄物是我9月22的時候發文希望你們可以去抽樣採檢因為居民很擔心"},{"start":5467.735,"end":5494.505,"text":"結果過了三個禮拜收到你的回函一看真的是嚇一跳碼頭山你跟我說目前沒有地下水相關監測的資料但是你要規劃好好選擇一個合適的地點進行監測但是呢你到當邊看你說用看的沒有問題是一般廢棄物所以其實你沒有做任何採檢你是用環保局的可是當地的人他就是"},{"start":5495.665,"end":5514.18,"text":"從1月開始投訴環保局的採檢是最近大家已經覺得不耐人信任了所以才會希望公正的第三方環境部可以站出來再來花旗湖是碼頭山的下游經過了那麼多次雨水的沖刷花旗湖是他們用來灌溉農地的"},{"start":5514.981,"end":5531.457,"text":"關於那個農作物的 這個這邊可不可以請你也介入 可以嗎好 這個我們再去了解一下不過委員 這個其實第一個要把行為人這個法院的判刑能夠抓到 這是最重的因為這個處理是地方環保局在處理的啦那我們也會提供必要的一個協助"},{"start":5532.199,"end":5551.696,"text":"我先給你看現在的圖他現在還只有清二十分之一 二十分之二左右所以那邊的人憂心忡忡希望公正的第三方站出來以及美濃大峽谷你給我的報告是說在最近呢"},{"start":5552.817,"end":5578.179,"text":"最近好幾次的檢測都沒有問題監測井的位置都是好的所以你研判沒有受到汙染那你11月根據本來的時程你11月會依照本來的時程再檢測但是這是一個全國熱議並且農民已經說對他們的農作物有影響了大家希望看到環境部是right nowright now你就去做檢測"},{"start":5580.04,"end":5598.91,"text":"但是你卻說過去三年都沒問題啊所以不需要我依照原本的時程就好了覺得這樣不是很奇怪嗎這個地下水的偵測或是因為他是屬於青稻這個營建廢棄物啦那這個我們會密切的一個追蹤不過委員因為這個其實要處理他一定要把行為人整個罵漲整個抓起來"},{"start":5600.231,"end":5623.697,"text":"所以委員再等一下時間這個我不方便細說我們這個檢警環到哪一種程度但是要把那個解決把行為人找出來他要負責清查這才是我們要做很積極要做的事那委員提到的一個環境的檢測我們會積極再跟我們團隊來研究一下怎麼幫忙高雄市政府來做這個事情謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳勤惠委員請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":5638.148,"end":5639.889,"text":"麻煩我們的彭部長林委員好部長早今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造的訊息的一些問題那我相信國人也都很支持再生能源可是"},{"start":5660.055,"end":5688.741,"text":"也希望你要去釐清民眾到底對於這錯假訊息的一些疑慮 比如說光電廠設好之後對環境會不會有影響在土地海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質 今天都有看你的報告嘛 氣體跟或污水也就是你報告裡面到底呈現這些東西是不是讓大家能夠知道 甚至各個案場到底如何清潔的有沒有規範那如果是破損的破裂的光電板的話 長時間浸泡在"},{"start":5690.001,"end":5699.624,"text":"海水跟酸性水中剛剛聽你講說大概有三個月的這樣的一個時間事實上也沒有溶出有害物質所以"},{"start":5700.885,"end":5730.425,"text":"我認為不過講這個一個是對外說明以外要去闢謠否則民眾會不安可是我們還是要來討論一個問題雖然這些材料不會產生污染不會在地分解可是還是要處理所以重點是在後端的維護跟回收跟我們的破損的清潤不能隨便去做處理那光電板事實上是再生能源的主力"},{"start":5731.165,"end":5758.843,"text":"但不能只談裝得快不快要問的是回收跟清潔的夠不夠確實現在在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約5萬公噸那根本不夠2039年預估的10萬公噸那當然我關心的不是量還有值全循環高質化處理每個月只有650公噸那大多事實上是比較"},{"start":5760.705,"end":5775.503,"text":"所以看起來就是說我們的高值的話OK的只有650公噸所以大部分還是居家處在低階破碎價值不高的也要浪費資源所以部長政府到底有沒有具體的時程跟那個擴增的計畫"},{"start":5776.944,"end":5806.076,"text":"報告委員關於這個回收其實現在有好幾家的中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請他可以來處理回收這個光電板那我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能可以出來那因為這一次其實是發生了突然來了十幾萬片那從來沒有遇過全世界也沒有遇過所以等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習但是我相信有這次經驗之後這個流程程序上甚至我們委員提到的這個廢清法"},{"start":5806.576,"end":5828.592,"text":"其實我們志願循環的這個促進法其實我們未來這兩個法裡面都會把這個概念整個融入進去那什麼時候 因為我剛剛講不是只有量還有一個考慮要值的部分就是什麼時候能夠讓高資化技術變成主流讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重金屬被完整的回收"},{"start":5829.412,"end":5851.025,"text":"報告委員現在我們看到有幾家大概是92%現在最多的那一家在苗栗它已經可以全回收到92%那有一家做得很好可是它的費用比較貴它可以做到99%全回收所以這個我們也在考量到因為這個是一個市場機制供需之間那我們是希望能夠未來都可以到99%以上"},{"start":5853.024,"end":5880.657,"text":"所以費金馬修法後能不能做到一路追蹤到應用端因為現在回收流程只能追到我們的處理廠端後端再生料流向沒有人管那個循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證再來我們來問費用跟制度的問題因為環談跟我反映說主計月刊就估算到2045年頂多收173億"},{"start":5882.598,"end":5896.752,"text":"但處理成本是397億落差224億再加上市場業者的欠費高達將近4億元這樣的一個制度怎麼永續而且符合我們的污染者付費的原則嗎"},{"start":5897.873,"end":5914.929,"text":"包委員 這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有邀請我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法"},{"start":5916.029,"end":5944.532,"text":"這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後 青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理"},{"start":5945.738,"end":5970.268,"text":"目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發我們目前就有這樣的工具上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰"},{"start":5971.068,"end":5991.077,"text":"我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼"},{"start":5992.68,"end":6015,"text":"包委員因為那個各種的工業他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前我們"},{"start":6015.82,"end":6043.727,"text":"當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且它是有利於淨零的但是它對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧"},{"start":6044.409,"end":6061.596,"text":"空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊"},{"start":6062.256,"end":6091.194,"text":"我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點"},{"start":6092.214,"end":6106.161,"text":"所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵"},{"start":6108.742,"end":6127.025,"text":"這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電廠破壞三波違規開發被撤照之後河山廠的周邊"},{"start":6127.746,"end":6145.527,"text":"海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突"},{"start":6147.549,"end":6168.911,"text":"所以我三點建議 第一個就是社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化 避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序 減少不必要的爭議 還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準 讓制度更有預測性"},{"start":6169.727,"end":6190.669,"text":"避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制那我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和"},{"start":6192.31,"end":6207.054,"text":"我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長"},{"start":6216.598,"end":6242.148,"text":"委員好 剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做當面目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的"},{"start":6242.894,"end":6265.22,"text":"數量的這個斐收的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年"},{"start":6266.36,"end":6283.869,"text":"根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在"},{"start":6284.569,"end":6308.847,"text":"也會劃設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查 程序重疊"},{"start":6309.828,"end":6333.842,"text":"我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓2026 2030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間"},{"start":6336.377,"end":6361.993,"text":"謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向目前我們從去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開"},{"start":6363.214,"end":6388.462,"text":"透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個聲色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程"},{"start":6389.682,"end":6392.364,"text":"第二 能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程"},{"start":6398.105,"end":6423.731,"text":"原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相"},{"start":6424.491,"end":6449.973,"text":"相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地"},{"start":6450.553,"end":6465.593,"text":"那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位"},{"start":6466.734,"end":6494.401,"text":"國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你次長這邊我們如何盤點流程簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進步在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題沒有問題好謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員"},{"start":6497.008,"end":6525.441,"text":"請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席有請部長請部長劉委員好部長好部長你現在是目前衛環主管三部會中重慶520還健在的部長"},{"start":6527.386,"end":6551.572,"text":"你會不會擔心因為會太陽能光電板會摔了一大跤我這樣提醒你不是沒有原因啦齁因為你前面幾位的部長我大致上都有提醒過太陽能光電板的這個回收的問題嚴重啊大家好像好像都蠻樂觀 包含現在的環境部也一樣是樂觀的在面對這個事情那現在已經爆發了"},{"start":6552.998,"end":6572.91,"text":"我覺得如果持續這樣的心態會很危險我是從2016年的10月質詢當時的林群院長以及李院署長有關於太陽能光電板的回收去化的議題2016年就已經知道2031年會出現第一波太陽能板的太萬潮"},{"start":6574.093,"end":6597.003,"text":"但是我們2025年就今年丹麥斯颱風就已經造成了13.5萬片約2800公噸的太陽光電板毀損去化立即發生的問題然後2025到現在再到2031還有6年6年的大限也差不多快到了會不會打破"},{"start":6599.068,"end":6627.385,"text":"環境部原有的預估還有當時的這樣的一個規劃所以是不是要有很大很大的一個修正跟調整的一個空間我這麼講啦齁我這麼講你看嘛齁這也是部長你講的我是應部長的講法當時颱風發生之後造成損毀這麼多我們每個月可以去化2900噸理論上是應該可以消化這個呃這個太陽光電的潰板齁"},{"start":6628.035,"end":6656.33,"text":"那主要的原因來自單一業者的態度消極延宕清運甚至於因為計較處理成本而此為護管才導致進度落後這是部長講的話是那照理講照理講明明都有回收基金而且偏偏都有登錄都有登記然後又是暗藏業者然後再來環境部應該也找跟業者有做衝的溝通甚至在委員會也多次包含我們"},{"start":6657.29,"end":6682.132,"text":"這一個屋頂型的我們都好像回答的都有相關的這樣的一個積極因應的有制度的機制不過那一次坦白講我問了兩次之後那個其實是到最後才比較肯定答覆我那現在面對這麼龐大的這樣的一個建制的量那基本上我們現在一個單次颱風好像就真的破功了雖然我們花了他900萬"},{"start":6683.686,"end":6711.248,"text":"但是那個3萬光電板還留在原地沒有沒有沒有 早就清除到這個你早就清除是多早之前9月5號9月5號 對對好 那現在還有多少尚未清除全部清除了全部清除了現在有1.2萬片它是放在準備佔置區它準備去清除那那個是合法放置一般廢棄物的地方好 我現在齁我現在要再跟部長提醒一點就是說如果這次的颱風"},{"start":6713.369,"end":6717.907,"text":"他是更加倍那我們可以在915號就完全處理清楚嗎"},{"start":6719.714,"end":6748.676,"text":"這個可能你現在沒辦法答覆我啦因為要看那個狀況嘛如果它是2900多的兩倍有辦法在9月5號之前處理掉嗎因為當時颱風是7月份來嘛如果一個月的量是2800那應該也是要9月份就可以解決嘛邏輯上是這樣但是我們現在看到一個狀況目前台灣只有六家具有處理太陽光電的這個許可證的廠家嘛 對不對就是這廠家只有四家是甲級 兩家是乙級的"},{"start":6749.557,"end":6761.436,"text":"我不曉得環境部能不能還有這樣的胸口撐住的把握來跟全台的人民百姓說未來還是有能力來積極應用這台太陽光電板壽命到最後起的大量的台灣草"},{"start":6762.563,"end":6786.463,"text":"還有這個自信嗎以現在這個家數來看報告委員 其實因為這次因為這幾家大多數都在北部那我們期待是有中南部也有一些業者那現在來看的話也的確有兩三家的確有跟我們提出申請有這個意願來做這個事情所以我們會審慎的來規劃這個事情因為部長你從就任到現在其實你是也是"},{"start":6787.544,"end":6805.662,"text":"環位的三個部位被肯定最多的啦謝謝因為你都很積極的在因應而且反應速度也很快但是但是這些太陽能光電板我真的會擔心是是處理不好不妥當會導致你的你的你的這樣的一個聲譽會真的會很大的受損那你聲譽受損相對的"},{"start":6807.003,"end":6824.57,"text":"也代表我們碳能關電的這些晦氣的量能處理得非常的讓人民無法接受嘛對不對我再補充一個資料我不曉得部長是不是有沒有掌握這樣的訊息一個足球場的面積大約是7,140米然後2016年當時全國碳能關電板的建置大約是1,125個足球場"},{"start":6833.905,"end":6854.087,"text":"你說截至到目前為止他們光電板已經在台灣建置幾個足球場的面積我們現在15GW啦1MW大概是1公頃所以是15000公頃左右所以我要去算一下足球場的面積是多少"},{"start":6855.482,"end":6869.654,"text":"組長面積就是7140 配妹啊 對不對那你再去乘以0.3 0.24嘛 對不對 這個抓出來差不多 我也這樣差不多 一萬七千多截至目前經濟部公園院的統計 已經高達17723個足球場"},{"start":6876.328,"end":6898.027,"text":"的面積這麼大也整整在短短的九年間喔短短九年間台灣的光電板覆蓋面積已經增加到15倍年增率35%比台積電還強總面積約1.26億平方米相當於台北市的總面積的一半"},{"start":6900.154,"end":6912.225,"text":"真的不要再去說這個光電板20年的壽命問題或是這個天災人禍還有新階段幾乎已經是無法負荷的狀態全台只有4家甲級"},{"start":6914.229,"end":6936.337,"text":"你環境部敢說這些有辦法幫你處理我覺得委員會也不敢幫你背書啊況且這些處理業者是全部都清空專門在等待處理燙的光電板嘛也不可能嘛 對不對那剛剛部長你打呼我 我是抱歉給你吐槽嘛你說9月5號已經處理完畢嘛你暫制的還多少"},{"start":6937.71,"end":6952.683,"text":"暫制的還可以算是處理完畢嗎一萬兩千片對嘛就是沒有處理完畢嘛只要是暫制的就不能叫做處理完畢啦應該是這麼說嘛所以我還是希望我具體在這邊要求部長啦"},{"start":6953.684,"end":6974.199,"text":"不要因為這個事情摔了一大跤可能依照你的處理的事情的態度要更積極更快速來做這個因應是不是兩個週內可以盤點出來就像你講的那些處理業者基本上都在北部那你北中南是不是要快速的來做一些相關的盤點甚至有規劃性的來做一些鼓勵"},{"start":6975.42,"end":7003.192,"text":"不要再到時候又有業者不積極配合還在嫌那個什麼成本不夠等等諸如此類的事情發生兩個星期內可以來來跟委員會再度的說明清楚你的規劃跟未來的這樣的一個部件嗎可以嗎好 謝謝你可能自己要立下軍令狀可能這個速度才可以趕得起來那第二件事情是這樣再過五天就10月25號部長知道是什麼日子嗎台灣關戶節沒有啦 跟你環境部有關"},{"start":7004.711,"end":7015.626,"text":"臺灣公婦節我不會問你吧部長的反應讓我有點汗顏十二十五號叫做清潔隊員日對 好 OK公婦節謝謝部長答覆"},{"start":7021.005,"end":7047.682,"text":"這是一個對你來講對全國的清潔隊員是一個非常重要的日子沒有這些辛勞的清潔隊員台灣的環境沒有辦法維持到這麼乾淨整潔啦但所以我們對這些清潔隊員我們都非常清楚他當然所屬是地方政府所轄管啦不管是一般的縣市市下市還是鄉鎮區公所來做這樣的一個管理但是部長知道嗎新北市政府現在對新北市的清潔隊員"},{"start":7048.802,"end":7077.707,"text":"健檢補助增加5000首創惠部的篩檢也就是惠部低劑量的電腦斷層LDCT嘛好那我不會去要求部長說全國22個縣市就一致全部的經費就拉到一樣嘛因為但是我們也不能讓這個縣市有錢就有做那個縣市沒有錢就不用做這對清潔隊員來講好像好像一國多次"},{"start":7078.514,"end":7098.056,"text":"那站在環境部身為一個主管機關我們要怎麼樣來因應這個事情報告委員因為我上禮拜也去頒獎我們傑出的優秀清潔隊員那我也非常感謝他們那其實我也關注到像包含了台北新北他們的福利跟其他的縣市是落差蠻大的"},{"start":7098.736,"end":7126.737,"text":"我們這邊當然是希望說全國有一個歧醫的標準但是這個清潔隊員他還是屬於地方政府的地方自治的項目我們現在第一個是在法規上面我們是希望可以盡量的歧醫有一個平臺也會希望各縣市的縣市首長能夠重視這一塊第二個如果我們中央可以做得到的話我們會努力的希望能夠再爭取一些經費當然這個跟地方的還是有一點差距所以我們會努力來做這個事情"},{"start":7126.997,"end":7149.897,"text":"我要提醒部長做這件事情真的是非常有意義而且你站在環境部的最高的主管來看待這個事情照顧全國的清潔隊員課不容緩然後也不是說新北市有錢就來做那其他一般縣市我想這個惠部這個低劑量的斷層掃描基本上也符合賴總統在講的嘛他目前國建署衛福部的國建署就有針對高風險"},{"start":7151.938,"end":7180.848,"text":"有家族死的 有肺癌家族死的還是這個吸菸 有這樣的狀態的兩年一次就免會來做LDCT的這樣一個檢查那清潔隊長期暴露在這個粉塵高風險的族群裡面那我們台灣的肺癌又是國病的第一名全球的15名那國健署又要配合賴總統所推的健康台灣希望這個肺癌的支持率可以下降到三分之一"},{"start":7182.459,"end":7197.194,"text":"這一個特定的高風險的族群環境部的主管就應該來發聲要不要把他納入也是在免費的項目其中之一的對象這部長來喊這個話應該賴總統可以接受了"},{"start":7198.634,"end":7218.17,"text":"應該可以聽得進去嘛照顧全國所有的清潔隊員畢竟他們為我們台灣的環境每一個角落 每一個縣市 每一個鄉鎮公所他們扮演非常重要的角色他也是我們國家 我們政府的同仁也是我們的夥伴嘛所以由你來發聲我覺得是最適當不過的是不是部長也可以來做一個承諾"},{"start":7219.411,"end":7245.669,"text":"謝謝委員因為我也常常說台灣很需要台積電但是台灣不能一天沒有清潔隊員所以這個我也公開跟他們說所以我也在上禮拜我也跟他們的優秀的清潔隊員承諾我會來努力來爭取所以委員理出的建議我之前沒有特別想過謝謝委員那我會來極力的來爭取好我希望部長能在你的任內對清潔隊員的照顧有相關的這樣的一個進步與提升好不好這個還是要給我一點時間來做處理"},{"start":7249.391,"end":7257.158,"text":"我給你時間啦 你要給我時間答覆啦你多久時間可以來努力到一個月一個月好不好一個月內喔 好 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝劉建國委員發言請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":7271.64,"end":7295.571,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝主席那我請彭部長請彭部長還有我們國務部副司長林黛麗好 蘇委員好部長 最近辛苦了謝謝 多謝希望這樣沒到外國去玩最近是你最痛苦的時候不過我還是要跟環境部加油啦環境部表現非常好"},{"start":7298.185,"end":7317.796,"text":"承諾的事情都有做到只是時間晚一點謝謝好 我現在問你兩個嚴肅的問題第一個就是是不是以後的光電板都要做環評因為你講的都一下子有一下子沒有一下子有幾公頃你現在在這邊講清楚的表達"},{"start":7319.44,"end":7346.229,"text":"所有的光電板是不是都要做環評好 謝謝委員因為我們過去其實1月的時候也謝謝委員給我們很多的建議所以我們1月的時候有發布的確有加研然後也有在敏感區域或是山坡地都有一個規範所以委員關心到屏東那個案場其實我相信未來不可能會發生而且屏東三寶其實我們也把它退回去了所以其實我們這個的態度是堅定的但是因為我如果水面型的話"},{"start":7346.829,"end":7368.78,"text":"它目前全世界目前還沒有那所以我們現在的確是在研議當中那我希望快的話在我們的細則在年底或是明年初如果研議的出來的話我們就會希望能夠在水面型的光電有一個環評的機制好 那第二個問題就是剛剛你講的水庫 水池 滯洪池"},{"start":7370.487,"end":7392.239,"text":"這些上面要擺光電板這次在嘉義就是發生這就是滯洪池六十幾公頃我們都去看了 看了兩次了那到處的水池都要滯洪池都要再放光電板我們屏東那個農科研區有三個滯洪池現在有其中一個也要開始了那雞屎頭都流進去了 都流進去了"},{"start":7396.773,"end":7420.535,"text":"滯洪池的問題那麼多要做環評 要不要做環評 剛剛講什麼時候可以給我們一個期程確定要不要環評包委 滯洪池是屬於水面型的光電我們是希望說我們現在十月底有一個類似徵求意見然後我們希望未來兩個月年底之前希望有一個"},{"start":7421.215,"end":7449.571,"text":"到底多少的數字需要環比的數字出來我是希望年底前或是到一月的時候可以正式來公告不過因為委員那個像嘉義的案例因為我們有觀察過有些的滯洪池沒事有些滯洪池有事那其實跟他的這個強度是有關係的所以未來呢因為經濟部他們也有承諾說在一些規範上面施工的部分都要有一些規範他們要有已經有去檢查過了所以我相信這個兩個方式來進行應該有辦法避免像這樣的問題"},{"start":7450.672,"end":7469.845,"text":"自己的我看是 因為剛好風靠啦風太大 風靠這樣漏進來所以一片這樣 所以都騷擾起來你又沒辦法做什麼風洞實驗室 你又沒辦法你看風水而已 你又不是冰凍人像我也要看 看烏鷹 看墳墓就對了我們現在改革後 都要看"},{"start":7471.726,"end":7485.533,"text":"塞巴蝴蝶要來 海蝶來的魂這要喝大水的自己要練一生武功不然的話 你養魚 魚就死了所以這個風水啦 這個環評的魄魂是不是要加強 你要觀青脈道好 你要看天象這樣 霍長這題我答不"},{"start":7496.599,"end":7502.811,"text":"現在其實如果環評的程序連這個就要把它考慮在裡面現在委員關心的就是多大面積這個我們會來研議對啦 你現在"},{"start":7507.372,"end":7533.44,"text":"因為如果我看起來 風太大那你的自動池上面的 實際上脆弱啦真的是蠻脆弱的好 那我現在問第二個問題就是我們現在很多這些光電公司上上個禮拜在內埔說在公墓上面要蓋太陽能板那在蘇明會的時候 那個船長要去修葡邊渡"},{"start":7535.581,"end":7553.559,"text":"加這個我還不夠現場就變料了 如果不夠就再削四方的那現在一個問題就是我們這些能源業者在辦說明會他又去邀請一些社區環保團體啦或者是社區活動的啦"},{"start":7557.304,"end":7575.155,"text":"協會藉由這個肥料 帶人來聽聽這是好事啦但是就像剛才說的船長要去修復如果你說你要協會現在這個環保業者或是現在這裡的風 能源業者去幫你贊助贊助就讓他們去辦活動 辦路由現在後來還有意見來說說它是環保蟑螂"},{"start":7585.322,"end":7602.877,"text":"就用情緒勒索 我來贊助的也有人去用移送法辦我要請問法務部你們這個界定的標準是什麼那這些環保業者 那這些能源業者我在想是套養殺我們法務部你的立場是怎樣"},{"start":7610.041,"end":7623.162,"text":"這個有關於環境評估的話這個應該我們尊重這個環境部他們的專業評他們的專業判斷啦那至於說現場的秩序的話我想這個是個案我們就"},{"start":7623.96,"end":7652.127,"text":"我不是作案喔 大家都虛烈烈喔紡遼鄉那邊有一個屏南工業區因為東海村最大公生日 說是幾十九年去把這些青熊 去把牠們疊成金我們小時候叫做疊成金疊疊疊青熊如果不送 就要去補不說你在敲詐勒索什麼那這些環保業者如出一策 還有"},{"start":7652.915,"end":7680.535,"text":"我們的民意代表 你要好好回答喔這大家都在看喔民意代表說萬一選舉的時候要贊助他們都是正常的喔 公開說 都抱感染力的現在把他們站出來贊助我們立法會議員也都這樣對著所以很困擾 像中情形反倒回來說他是環保長 現在是環保黑道"},{"start":7682.481,"end":7691.731,"text":"华府的观念的想法是怎么样明确的跟我们讲一下没有办法明确至少要给我们开示一下大家都很困掉了"},{"start":7692.92,"end":7718.902,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢 那就剛才我想那個部長也一直提到我們有一個跨部會平台那這個平台是在行政院政務委員林明熙政務委員他這邊來做一個協調那就剛才委員垂詢到的有關於政治獻金的部分的話我想如果依照政治獻金法相關的規定的話"},{"start":7721.389,"end":7730.911,"text":"應該就是我們法務部這邊也尊重尊重沒有啦 這位民運代表說話總是有白痴啦"},{"start":7732.089,"end":7749.719,"text":"地理就是說這個社團 這個廟宇 會怕啦因為正經也有人往上 上場以後再去換衣 換衣以後一心二心沒辦法回來但是會怕很受傷啦所以不得不說 像這種能源業者 他這樣做 他是"},{"start":7753.24,"end":7778.799,"text":"說到拍電影以前 兩個都兩張雙咖啡啦對阿 對阿 把你 把你 把你贊助贊助這樣如果 你如果要怎樣就說你這這這就要收了所以這是真 真困擾的事情啦所以這個部長你你如果我有做環評就沒有這些事了啦你每一件都給他做環評就沒有這些事了啦一公頃 兩公頃他還好每天這樣蠶食精吞這樣你敢不敢看他啦所以你的 好啦"},{"start":7783.886,"end":7797.756,"text":"其實報告委員 環評沒有辦法完全禁止啦這是社會的問題這種環保蟑螂或是這種說敗類其實我們現在濫肯濫法的多的是所以我們現在很積極的沒有顏色如果有犯罪我們有證據就會抓"},{"start":7798.857,"end":7826.727,"text":"然後另外一個是說我們跟法務部有一個平台是林明熙政委在處理的所以我們現在針對這個是很清楚的界線所以委員我們可以如果委員有具體的案例歡迎給我們我們會絕對請我們檢警環調的平台來法辦明天總執行再好好的請教你跟院長 謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員發言現在先做一下宣告"},{"start":7828.919,"end":7836.743,"text":"待會黃秀芳委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘然後現在請邱振軍委員發言主席好我們請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":7852.151,"end":7867.709,"text":"邱委員好 部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的"},{"start":7868.349,"end":7892.57,"text":"我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快啦因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面"},{"start":7894.351,"end":7922.262,"text":"對 等於是會欠缺的一些彈性啦你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳捕捉跟封存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去定的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎"},{"start":7924.703,"end":7939.249,"text":"報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以"},{"start":7939.469,"end":7957.731,"text":"我知道啦能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊"},{"start":7959.22,"end":7986.813,"text":"也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW 15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性"},{"start":7988.053,"end":8010.295,"text":"如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎對 包委員因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛對 對不對但是因為"},{"start":8012.857,"end":8030.718,"text":"也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要這樣修"},{"start":8034.741,"end":8048.197,"text":"你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應"},{"start":8051.397,"end":8067.938,"text":"沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高"},{"start":8068.559,"end":8090.576,"text":"而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊"},{"start":8091.711,"end":8106.577,"text":"當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的"},{"start":8114.679,"end":8126.629,"text":"現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要"},{"start":8128.028,"end":8153.854,"text":"包委我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的"},{"start":8155.302,"end":8172.313,"text":"好啦 我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對 我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光電納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說"},{"start":8183.486,"end":8200.938,"text":"這個烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你 你回答一下好了是這樣嗎 鮑委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的 的確是這個樣子"},{"start":8204.758,"end":8233.551,"text":"那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼火星級並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確他是在一個儀器的偵測的一個但是他是他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那我們自己我們同仁對這個很了解 對他們很了解 你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長"},{"start":8234.921,"end":8260.01,"text":"跟委員報告 它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法"},{"start":8262.011,"end":8282.053,"text":"就是假西蘭的一個比射法那這個是目前是我們的國防研所公告的一個標準檢驗方法也是國際上所通用的因離子界面活性劑的一個檢驗方法所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是好那我再問你"},{"start":8283.252,"end":8305.561,"text":"我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對 報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了 今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的項限值是0.5mgpl好 謝謝那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個"},{"start":8313.837,"end":8329.264,"text":"太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員 既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚"},{"start":8331.534,"end":8356.439,"text":"報告委員 這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦"},{"start":8357.783,"end":8381.318,"text":"事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對 如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他這個不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查"},{"start":8383.408,"end":8401.986,"text":"對啊 因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電共生都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久 抽查一次我們不定"},{"start":8404.975,"end":8430.547,"text":"我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行"},{"start":8432.268,"end":8452.61,"text":"不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入"},{"start":8453.148,"end":8469.7,"text":"他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣的嗎沒有 不行他只是試併連而已試併連 然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照電業的執照的執照拿到執照之後我們還管不管"},{"start":8470.576,"end":8499.173,"text":"當然持續在管啊 生設開始籌設一直到施工 甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦 我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好 政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘 好不好"},{"start":8502.574,"end":8504.396,"text":"謝謝 謝謝邱正軍委員發言 請黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席 我們請部長 請彭部長"},{"start":8520.424,"end":8545.781,"text":"王國元好 部長好 部長我今天想要針對就是這個廢棄物亂到的這種狀況來跟部長做一個討論就以彰化這邊為例彰化這個北有大渡溪南有濁水溪那中間還有貫穿著舊濁水溪然後還有楊子戳溪原大排那其實這幾個這個大排或者是"},{"start":8546.702,"end":8560.415,"text":"這個溪有的都會比較偏就是會比較偏人煙比較稀少的地方可能一般的人可能不會到達的一個地方然後有一些地方是這樣子那這些地方也會成為這個廢棄物亂到的一個很"},{"start":8563.976,"end":8591.384,"text":"可能是廢棄物亂到的一個天堂所以我們一直希望就是說這些可能比較偏遠的比較人煙比較稀少的這些地方也許可能要用一些比較科技的方式來執法那不可能說都靠著什麼這個河川的巡守員去巡邏我覺得這個可能會有一些困難所以在這幾年當中我們看到就是除了這個"},{"start":8592.684,"end":8610.761,"text":"第三河川分署第四河川分署还有彰化县政府以及农田农水署其实他们都有这个巡守队那针对这些河去做一些巡逻那也看到就是说在这"},{"start":8611.441,"end":8630.836,"text":"這一年當中這幾次當中就也出動了1800次的巡查也清除總共27公噸的垃圾這些地點有的甚至除了垃圾一般的家務垃圾之外還有一般的大型家具的垃圾"},{"start":8631.897,"end":8648.474,"text":"所以我在這邊想要請教部長就是說除了彰化有這樣的一個狀況我相信全國各地比較人煙稀少的不論是河川或者是山谷也是很多這樣的重狀況也真的非常多"},{"start":8649.995,"end":8674.042,"text":"一般的民眾不太會到達或者是人煙比較稀少的地方有時候山谷就是一堆垃圾所以我想請教部長針對這樣的一個狀況我們有沒有可能在這些可能垃圾可能會被亂倒垃圾的這些地點可能加裝監視器或者是用什麼樣的方式能夠杜絕亂倒垃圾或者是亂丟垃圾"},{"start":8676.061,"end":8695.627,"text":"包委我們這邊是處理是比較大型的例如說營建剩餘土石房跟營建廢棄物那個是大型需要一個車輛那我們現在是有一套的一個方案包含了監視器各方面然後用GPS不過委員你這邊這個是稍微小一點點我們會跟彰化環保局一起來討論"},{"start":8696.827,"end":8725.316,"text":"我也希望就是說不論是我們的這個營建廢棄物或者是其他的這種垃圾可能是這種失業廢棄物或者是那種工廠生產出來的垃圾其實這個環保環境部這邊管那其實有很多像這種大型垃圾在地方也是層出不窮所以我希望就是說環境部跟地方政府應該要去想一套方法可能更容易來稽查或者是更容易把這些"},{"start":8726.697,"end":8744.493,"text":"熱點可能這個容易被亂倒垃圾的這些熱點可能要加裝一些這個監視器或是什麼樣的方式能夠來杜絕另外我想請教就是說部長在也是在彰化地區在前陣子就是"},{"start":8745.594,"end":8762.73,"text":"有人就是把這個營建的廢棄物就丟到我們彰化的這個惡靈中科園區它是一個科學園區然後垃圾就直接這個營建的這個廢棄物就直接倒到那邊去所以我希望就是說其實"},{"start":8764.293,"end":8792.935,"text":"雖然我們在那個載運的這個貨車或者是那種卡車可能你們都有GPS那可能就是說上有上有政策下有對策也許他是用什麼樣的方式把這些這個營建廢棄物亂丟亂盜所以我希望就是說部長針對這部分我覺得應該還要有更精進的方式來杜絕另外他這個犯罪的手法他是用偽造土石方的證明"},{"start":8794.115,"end":8818.745,"text":"偽造土石方的證明然後去取得這個可能它裡面有管理員是因為這樣然後取得信任然後就進去裡面亂盜這個也是一個方式所以我希望就是說部長針對這一部分未來如果還有亂盜這個營建廢棄物或者是一般的失業廢棄物或者是一般的這種垃圾我覺得應該要有這個嚴懲或者是重罰"},{"start":8820.833,"end":8846.209,"text":"對 謝謝委員這個案例我們有注意到那現在就是委員你說的嚴懲重罰那我們現在是未來會有一個智慧維理的計畫等於是除了GPS之外車牌在每個路口我們都可以掌握這個訊息所以我們會運用AI的方法來解決那事實上這個的問題在於是說如何廢棄物去化那現在我們的確我們跟內政部合作也在盤點這樣的一個機會因為這個其實"},{"start":8849.111,"end":8868.945,"text":"這個是台灣幾十年來都從來沒有人去解決這個問題但是我們也重視到這再不處理已經會變成是一個很大的環境的一個議題所以我們有認真有面對來處理這個事但是我也必須跟委員坦承這個道高一尺 魔高一丈他們在進化當中在進化當中 那你們應該要"},{"start":8869.966,"end":8890.262,"text":"比他更早一步去想到要怎麼去解決這個問題比如說像有一些地方不是只有高雄有台北也有挖下去全部都是廢棄物的也都有所以我們現在的確是更重視到這一個環節所以委員再給我們一點時間其實我們已經有一個跨部會的平台就是來處理這個事情"},{"start":8891.002,"end":8918.796,"text":"這一件其實因為是即時有去抓到才不會造成可能也許下一手的廠商他如果要進駐之後他一挖可能底下全部都是這種營建廢棄物這個廠商他會很倒楣要去清理這些廢棄物所以我覺得就是說應該我們還要有一個比較更精進的方式怎麼樣去解決這些營建廢棄物剛剛部長有特別提到就是我們未來會有一個"},{"start":8919.496,"end":8941.548,"text":"現在已經有跨部會跨部會然後我們在修改法令廢清法自在法都要修正然後這個所謂的廢棄物的量能可以去化甚至有人可以把這個所謂的這個營建廢棄物或土石方鼓勵成立這個土地銀行等等土質銀行等等能夠做好一個內循環來做處理就是說不要"},{"start":8942.228,"end":8962.06,"text":"什麼東西都是廢棄物來看待那現在的情況像這個就是倒一車可能就一兩萬塊所以一頓就一兩萬塊有利可圖所以大家都喜歡幹這種事情貪小便宜那我們就希望可以改變這個生態部長接下來我想請教就是說因為彰化這邊也有很多就是農業的廢棄物"},{"start":8964.641,"end":8978.554,"text":"除了農模之外也有一些葡萄藤或者是一些樹枝這種都算是比較農業的廢棄物當然就是說我們怎麼樣讓這些我們認為就是說可以再利用的"},{"start":8980.776,"end":8998.893,"text":"譬如說有的樹枝它就可以成為木炭或者是它還可以成為農地上有用的肥料類似這樣的一個狀況我希望就是說未來可能還要再加強力道怎麼樣讓這些農業的廢棄物能夠"},{"start":9003.157,"end":9020.436,"text":"可以推廣然後可以再利用我覺得這應該還要再去努力因為尤其是農磨的這個部分因為我也提到好幾次因為農磨確實是一個非常麻煩的一件事情你用完之後上面的土其實你要把它清掉其實還是有困難"},{"start":9021.317,"end":9036.156,"text":"那這個要怎麼樣去解決那另外就是說我們現在碰到這個花蓮光復香這些泥土沙可能混合著一些廢棄物那你怎麼樣我覺得這個土也許"},{"start":9037.558,"end":9056.374,"text":"感覺好像是還蠻肥沃的這種土那這種土是不是未來還可以怎麼樣再利用那就是說這些土它裡面夾雜的一些垃圾你怎麼樣去把它清掉然後讓它變成真的就是土或者是泥或者是沙所以我不知道說部長針對這一部分你們要怎麼去處理"},{"start":9057.254,"end":9076.541,"text":"謝謝委員 委員提到這個彰化因為彰化除了這個葡萄藤之外還有這種稻米的稻梗其實就我們來看的話應該都是資源物所以我記得我也跟農業部陳部長有談過說我們是不是有一些輔導一些榻榻米的公司因為榻榻米用稻梗來做其實是蠻合適的"},{"start":9078.021,"end":9101.67,"text":"把這個規模經濟把它做出來的確我們是在想這個事委員提到葡萄藤是蠻好的我們會加大力道也希望能夠去了解說它可以怎麼樣再利用這個就是循環經濟至於花蓮那個部分其實它的現在最新的資料是30萬噸我們預估會到100萬噸目前的確是要把它分類然後進行各種各樣的一個運用"},{"start":9102.67,"end":9117.52,"text":"現在是正在進行當中因為我們現在還在救災所以我們現在有一套想法希望能夠把它做資源再分類不過這個真的也要一些特別的預算來去做處理我們希望明年可以來開始進行這個工作我們也會全力支持就是說"},{"start":9118.4,"end":9143.376,"text":"未來這個真的也是一個蠻大的工程我看起來應該是一個蠻大的工程所以我們希望就是說環境部真的在這個環境上面可能還要再加強力道就是說尤其是對於這個農業上的這些我們認為可以再利用的可以拜託再跟農業部這邊再合作然後再加強力道去宣傳好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":9146.556,"end":9150.6,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員發言 彭部長詢問現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9765.558,"end":9771.86,"text":"現在繼續開會請王育民委員質詢謝謝主席我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長"},{"start":9794.044,"end":9819.78,"text":"部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板"},{"start":9820.24,"end":9836.038,"text":"需不需要使用清潔劑清潔 就你掌握的 從環境部知道的就我所知道的是不需要 他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚 因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有 我知道是沒有好來 那我們就叫經濟部 來 次長"},{"start":9838.834,"end":9858.355,"text":"市長你這個經濟部有發文說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢網路上面現在有一個被截圖的就是說這個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過"},{"start":9860.257,"end":9880.337,"text":"他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅爆效果比粉紅爆好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文"},{"start":9882.942,"end":9911.611,"text":"報告委員 這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息 我必須要去做釐清那次長你今天第一次看到我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息 那就去開罰他好不好不可以任意發這樣的文"},{"start":9912.651,"end":9919.056,"text":"我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為呢這一則文呢這個看起來這一位人士呢他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下"},{"start":9939.671,"end":9955.251,"text":"如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑他們可不可以這樣子販售"},{"start":9956.272,"end":9976.559,"text":"如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品"},{"start":9978.842,"end":10004.625,"text":"這個我們來了解所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對 你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢"},{"start":10005.285,"end":10029.817,"text":"路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以"},{"start":10030.219,"end":10046.944,"text":"我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止"},{"start":10048.564,"end":10069.301,"text":"路上行的部分我去實在了解一下再跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長署長來"},{"start":10074.451,"end":10100.511,"text":"你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗他在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的但是如果他是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們允許他用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止他用大規模"},{"start":10100.731,"end":10117.714,"text":"你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電"},{"start":10119.11,"end":10140.925,"text":"其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解"},{"start":10142.466,"end":10169.585,"text":"我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他還沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地"},{"start":10170.725,"end":10190.211,"text":"這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息"},{"start":10190.771,"end":10209.425,"text":"我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個就是再用額外的這個洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分"},{"start":10214.325,"end":10233.801,"text":"這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作的狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止"},{"start":10234.802,"end":10262.43,"text":"還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部要訂嗎"},{"start":10264.884,"end":10287.445,"text":"我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是 那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用"},{"start":10289.238,"end":10308.665,"text":"水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥屎還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的"},{"start":10309.113,"end":10336.68,"text":"所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的"},{"start":10337.752,"end":10361.415,"text":"這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化的東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以"},{"start":10362.276,"end":10384.281,"text":"不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來"},{"start":10385.118,"end":10400.916,"text":"我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的"},{"start":10403.154,"end":10424.545,"text":"好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分在嘉義縣呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那嘉義縣環保局長說電子圍籬的效果有限"},{"start":10425.306,"end":10444.708,"text":"業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍籬並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍籬"},{"start":10445.669,"end":10466.77,"text":"而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子維理效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善"},{"start":10468.071,"end":10494.23,"text":"報告委員 這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年"},{"start":10495.871,"end":10518.341,"text":"對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎"},{"start":10519.581,"end":10536.116,"text":"這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決"},{"start":10538.135,"end":10560.311,"text":"報告委員 那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會採取例行的措施對啊 那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決"},{"start":10562.219,"end":10583.814,"text":"這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有"},{"start":10585.015,"end":10602.75,"text":"這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言"},{"start":10612.335,"end":10614.877,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席請彭部長好請彭部長趙偉好部長好部長我第一個想要請教一下目前全國實施這個垃圾不落地並由垃圾車在定時定點清運那有些縣市可能還要使用專用垃圾袋然後要仔細分類"},{"start":10641.817,"end":10662.205,"text":"那通常民眾在等垃圾車的過程當中會預先把垃圾拿出來嘛攔在路上嘛然後放在這個勤運區集中並且暫置對不對那這部分沒有違法對吧是對那但是呢如果是在非垃圾收集的時段這樣子亂丟是不是就是違法的行為是是嗎是好很好謝謝部長喔"},{"start":10662.705,"end":10681.63,"text":"那部長簡單來說垃圾車清運停靠區是不是不能放垃圾而是只能夠暫置而且要遵守相關的程序規定反之就是違法對嗎對對好那我想要另外想要請教一下那這個第一個保護區可以到費力清嗎"},{"start":10684.524,"end":10708.417,"text":"呃 基本上是不行的基本上是不行的好 不行嘛 對不對好 那同樣我們就想要針對這樣子的廢棄物的處理邏輯喔我想要請問一下在高雄大平頂的垃圾事件高雄市政府說根據法規他的法規啊 他自己的解釋啊他說的確能夠放置相關廢棄物但是因為這個大平頂地區它是個保護區喔"},{"start":10709.517,"end":10737.307,"text":"但是他說可以放可是沒有申請那主管機關無法監督指導清運跟站制的手續這個在程序上是違法的事實那高雄市府自己也有開罰那這樣算不算是亂到報告委員他其實因為這個是屬於地方的事務啦那他是允許他這個這家公司來執行這個地方政府的一個公共工程所以他特別允許他有一個站制的地方沒有但是他沒有申請"},{"start":10738.487,"end":10766.326,"text":"他是說他的地方法規他說他合法這個地方在法規上有去做這件事有這個可以去申請的這個狀況可是他沒有申請那請問就像剛剛倒垃圾的概念一樣他有這個法規但是他沒有申請這樣算不算是這樣算是合法理論上是不可以的但是這個應該是他跟水利因為他是水利局的工程然後他是接受水利局的委託處理這個事情所以我相信他們可能有一些契約在做這個事"},{"start":10766.786,"end":10790.868,"text":"你相信他們可是你並不曉得我不知道因為這地方的事好所以我想要問一下因為在保護區到廢棄廢栗清沒有違法只是沒有申請這是他們的說法那所以我也去查了一下他高雄市政府這個水利局所說的高雄市府認定用途的符合他說這個都市計劃法高雄市的施行細則附表中有廢污水處理設施但是這個細則的附表中"},{"start":10791.588,"end":10819.826,"text":"是說保護區之土地及建築物以供國土保安水土保持維護天然資源與環境保護的生態功能為主除了幼立的規定之外不得為其他使用而此列又是這個所謂的公用事業設施而不是公用事業設施所產出的垃圾所以我在想它是不是在這個法規上是解釋是有問題不符合程序的那這個部分因為它有可能是會變成一個通案"},{"start":10820.706,"end":10849.375,"text":"那這個部分我想要請問一下部長你的態度是什麼你們有什麼事情可以去協助的報告委員這個是屬於都計法啦這是市政府他們自己訂的都計法並不是我們環境部主管的法規啦那這個當然是如果從常理來看的話保護區的土地的確是不適宜去倒這樣的一個廢棄物啦對 所以對 部長的態度就是保護區的土地不適合去倒這樣的廢棄物嘛而且他沒有合法的申請所以他也不能夠叫做暫置嘛等於是違法亂倒嘛"},{"start":10850.718,"end":10867.584,"text":"所以這個部分我想要請教這個是一個事件可是這事件的背後跟我們今天很多委員討論到的在處理整個不管是建築廢棄物或是各種廢棄物的流程上面我看這樣環境部好像會很難管理部長你有沒有什麼可以協助的地方"},{"start":10868.024,"end":10896.701,"text":"報告委員因為有些是其實這個事情是地方自治啦那我們也必須尊重地方單位那尤其這個的施工是當地的水利局那那個土地也是主管機關也是水利局的所以我相信他們可能在某方面可能是簡化了一些形式啦那我們會去了解這個到底怎麼走但是基本上如果是一個部長你可不可以去了解這個事件因為它不見得只是一個地方自治的問題因為它有關到整個廢棄屋清運這跟你的主要的業務有關係喔"},{"start":10897.802,"end":10925.635,"text":"而且他們如果說這樣子譬如說美濃大峽谷啊這種挖一挖然後他最後可以放置的這些利益牽扯到的可能都是幾十億啊部長這個是會有問題而且對環境生態有很大的破壞這等一下跟這個光電板也有關係喔所以部長這部分你你可以做什麼調查或者是去了解他的委員這個我們再詳細的去了解啦因為這個畢竟是地方政府的工作但是我們會去了解說他到底在這個流程上面有什麼樣的一個問題"},{"start":10926.235,"end":10941.46,"text":"那部長您可以給本席什麼時候可以給一個了解後的報告嗎就是說他們這個到底發生什麼事而且他們還有沒有其他類似的地方是沒有申請然後亂佔志的那你未來要怎麼精進因為不見得只有高雄市政府啊各個地方南部現在很多地方可能都發生這種事情"},{"start":10942.025,"end":10967.131,"text":"好我們一個月的時間好不好好那拜託部長一個月的時間喔謝謝好那再來我想要再進一步去問喔就是剛剛其實有幾個委員包含剛剛陳金輝委員有提到有關於嘉義這次的瘋呆剛剛所謂的光電板序號的問題那部長你當時其實有承諾到他九月中給但是到現在沒辦法給那剛剛經濟部能源署也有說這個量體很大很複雜啦"},{"start":10968.291,"end":10989.45,"text":"所以本席就想要追問其實我覺得這是一個很大的問題而且應該要精進的問題這是不是在流程上面會有問題因為這就跟當初在討論花蓮的災後的這個重建或者是災後的廢棄物清理清運或者是回收這是行這個流程上面是不是有疏失你們要怎麼精進因為當已經發生的時候"},{"start":10991.932,"end":11016.48,"text":"然後你沒有辦法馬上的去核對或者是他在清運的時候你有沒有要求業者怎麼樣給這些序號然後你的資料庫跟他報回來序號這不是現在的電腦或系統輸入進去他就可以去說有哪一些遺失有哪一些沒有偵測到這照理說應該是很快的事情那你們在流程上面有沒有去設計這個是部分如果部長不能回答你可以請經濟部的代表"},{"start":11017.849,"end":11039.509,"text":"報告委員 因為這個其實我們那個序號訂的目的是當時是為了淘汰這個廚藝的這個光電板所以有做一個序號因為這個有錢的對價關係那這次呢為什麼比較慢因為它是大量的因為被風災損毀所以它等於是要把它去化掉所以這個的數字上我的確也在追這個數字但是其實這個十幾萬片有一點困難"},{"start":11040.39,"end":11066.852,"text":"部長所以我這是要講的好你也先回答因為我一直在強調我覺得這是一個工作流程上的問題因為就剛才講十幾萬片因為我們有那個業者他每一片的那個帳單但是業者他現在要去清點毀損的有12萬片左右但是他總共的可能超過幾十萬片那有一部分毀損嘛所以他要去核對就是說到底是"},{"start":11067.552,"end":11087.269,"text":"少了哪几片所以这个数量非常大那我们有叫他清点出来因为未来他要做如果他要复原的话我们要清楚知道他是哪几片在做复原所以我认为你们这个要求和行政程序上面是不是有精进的地方你们要求说他现在去挖"},{"start":11088.03,"end":11103.4,"text":"挖的時候報回來的每一片都有序號他都要登記起來然後每一段時間他就是必須回報到你這裡來那你們要求的時間序有沒有問題因為這也會牽扯到剛剛有也有那個委員有給照片嘛"},{"start":11104.02,"end":11122.407,"text":"圖片說你們說清理完99%那現在有12萬多在暫置然後但是他們後來又有記者去報再去挖土地之後發現還有破損的在土地裡面所以這又在追究一件事喔你放了太久到底是誰去把它挖然後再把它埋進去的這就是現在造成的問題嘛是不是"},{"start":11123.092,"end":11150.838,"text":"是但現在陸續有一些零星的可能是當時被這個泥土掩埋那下雨之後沖刷又出來或是有一些他可能當時壓在下面那現在脫離飄出來就零星的是有啦那業者我們也去在這兩天我們也再去看業者這個好幾百卡車都送出去他不會剩下一兩個可能他做的沒有落實那這一方面環境部有去開罰那我們也會叫業者再來做盤點"},{"start":11151.698,"end":11178.364,"text":"我建議你們應該要一起限制一個這樣子的平台這個包含到兩個很重要的因素就是所謂公開透明網路上譬如說你有這些序號在這裡這些序號它現在怎麼跑它現在跑去哪裡了被處理的怎麼樣是還在發電中還是什麼的好那這個應該要公開透明的去展現出來之外因為它有兩個用處第一個用處等一下也會討論到但是我們先針對這件事情就是發生了災後的時候的廢棄物清理的狀況"},{"start":11179.204,"end":11205.139,"text":"因為這個你後續要再來追我跟你講你一定很難追你一定追不到所以這代表現在這個流程沒有及時公開透明譬如說業者一回報你是不是就應該要有一個這個資料庫就知道說現在回報的狀況是不是這樣子好然後包含他案場整個破壞這個案場到底是幾號到幾號的序號你這樣子才有辦法管理嘛現在看起來這個部分是沒有辦法是不是可以請部長和次長回去有一個精進作為的報告也是一樣一個月好不好"},{"start":11205.879,"end":11223.911,"text":"我覺得這個廢棄物的部分也是一個後續的問題可以嗎可以然後再接下來進一步一個月兩個這個部會跨部會去協調那再來就是下一個問題最後一個問題我會盡速就是剛剛有討論到這個現在光電板有這個所謂的回收基金對不對"},{"start":11225.083,"end":11241.508,"text":"那現在的說預計2045年可以收到173億看似是一大筆數一大筆錢啊好可是遠遠不足說腰之硬的預估的成本是397億喔對不對現在等於是還差了這麼還差那個簡報"},{"start":11245.365,"end":11268.511,"text":"還差了很多就是現在說預估可以收到173億然後但是不足以支應的成本是397億所以中間換句話說差了220幾億啊那我就想本身就想問這個部分怎麼辦因為他的確當然現在還沒有到要大量除役的時候可是其實也快了啊我們都已經看到這些問題跟剛剛所謂的後續的怎麼處置那這個價這個錢怎麼怎麼處理"},{"start":11271.19,"end":11291.338,"text":"這個報告因為他當時我們是每K瓦收1000元是依照當時的價格去計算所以現在就是等於是擺明的收不夠嘛然後還有包含2021年到2023年的回收清除處理費有四成沒有繳納我就想問說那到時候真的碰到大量廚藝的時候我們的這些錢或是不夠用的那怎麼處理會不會變成是我們要另外拿納稅人的錢來做這個回收"},{"start":11294.975,"end":11319.803,"text":"不會 這還是業者要負責但是你到時候追不到呢會滾動來檢討因為他要20年的期間嘛那現在這些業者都在那另外有一部分的人沒有繳納這個我們都去吹繳他如果不繳的話我們就會移送法院去那所以這個機制是現在不繳有罰則嗎 罰款嗎吹繳 我們是有吹繳而已 但不用 他不能罰就是你只能跟人家說趕快繳錢 趕快繳錢然後你不能罰他嗎"},{"start":11322.523,"end":11343.937,"text":"因為這個是所謂公的義務如果他不繳的話我們會移送那個法院去查封他的財產或是未來要扣繳他的電費那部長你可不可以回答一下剛剛有說這個錢不夠到時候怎麼辦這個是需要一些財務模型的計算跟未來的量的推估然後因為現在的確我知道處理費用其實是比這個1000塊高很多"},{"start":11344.477,"end":11369.155,"text":"所以我們現在其實第一個是鼓勵市場上能夠更多人出來然後得到一個價量平衡當然我必須坦承說這個模型可能要再算一次那怎麼算 什麼時候可以算出來這個要我們再來協商最近一批大量廚藝是什麼時候2029到2031年左右2029到2031其實也快了2029也快了而且那一批應該也不少而且那個時候還是更早的技術"},{"start":11370.175,"end":11386.096,"text":"不多 那個時候還好就是早期的 因為那個大概從馬前總統的時候就開始有大量的在建了所以那一期大概都沒有叫所以那個也準備要除役啦馬上就會遇到這個問題對 未來再幾年那這個部分是不是那你們打算怎麼去做計算"},{"start":11386.972,"end":11410.206,"text":"基本上這個我們現在正在討論這個話題然後甚至說當然原來的想法是有一個基金是大水庫的理論但是未來呢我相信這個價量之間理論上是可以供需平衡的啦但是我們必須要再算一次好本席今天已經點出幾個未來可能會發生的問題請環境部和經濟部應該要就此有精進作為好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員的資訊"},{"start":11416.638,"end":11417.243,"text":"好接下來我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":11449.84,"end":11456.482,"text":"謝謝主席請經濟部的賴次長跟環境部的彭部長好請賴次長彭部長委員好處長我看你經濟部從8號發了新聞稿16號又發了這個FBR你們都在強調說嘉義會計的這個光電板已經完全"},{"start":11476.351,"end":11482.896,"text":"清完了 不管是志鵬池不管是贊助區說不要再以訛傳訛確定都清完了嗎"},{"start":11484.17,"end":11512.047,"text":"現在還有部分在這個合法的戰事區域裡面那其他的部分都在戰事區你看你自己的圖戰事區10月11號以前不是全部都清完了嗎那個是在 這個是你那個是在打自己的新聞稿打點自己的新聞稿那個是在這個四個場區當時災後的緊急的這個戰事的一個區域你這個是16號剛剛發的耶距離現在才五天耶是啊"},{"start":11513.499,"end":11532.9,"text":"所以來來我們先確認一下新聞櫃下何鮑魚行政暗藏志隆市本身是7月24號就完成了對不對行政是7月30號嘛這個沒錯對不對這沒錯嘛戰事區照你的新聞稿跟你剛剛的FB還叫民眾不要什麼以兒傳兒來看這個"},{"start":11536.947,"end":11565.817,"text":"來來看一下所以新聞是10月11號以前清除貴社這都是10月11號以前清完嘛對不對特別下去看來這是嘉義新聞志鴻池的站置區你看房部蓋的那個你從外面都看得到那個裡面裝的是什麼"},{"start":11567.867,"end":11586.835,"text":"破碎的光電板跟角碎的這個湖板市長 你們為什麼急著8號要發新聞稿 16號要發這上面這麼大堆 一大堆這還不是剛剛環境部在講什麼那個什麼零星的那麼一大堆"},{"start":11591.792,"end":11607.664,"text":"市長 來來 我再進一步給你看 來來這個是旁邊 旁邊的贊助區閃落的 你看 左邊這個圖中間那個是破碎的光電板你先看 先看 來來收聽一下"},{"start":11615.734,"end":11641.234,"text":"第一個我們剛剛說明了丹納斯的時候我們有一個緊急的這個戰事區包括這個水面的太陽能光電板這個確實都已經我們都已經有清完了那至於你剛剛這個畫面包括後面那張畫面這個顯示的應該是委員最近有去看的那這個部分我們還是會定期去看若是還有沒有沒有清理的話"},{"start":11641.934,"end":11660.659,"text":"那會依照相關的這個規定來處理發新聞稿 發新聞稿的時候你全部都簽完了那我們確實在公衛區旁邊的那個戰事區當時協調完了 那個都簽完了來來來 我剛才那個問你的來回到那個新聞櫃下 這你們 我要幫你整理耶你8號發一個新聞稿 16號發一個LV"},{"start":11667.265,"end":11695.607,"text":"是我們夜上 是我們眼睛的夜上太重 看不到這也是我們看到這個戰事區我們當時協調的是戰事區我們全部都清完了 這個照片在這裡啊所以我找的那些東西那個是 林興說是喔 跑出來的話我們就繼續去巡檢一大堆在那裡 給我林興喔來 我再給你看 不是只有那一大堆來 市長你看 旁邊來旁邊 上一張"},{"start":11697.519,"end":11725.004,"text":"這個一樣是10月18號的新聞耶就剛剛那個一大坨的旁邊地面上是什麼左邊這一張破碎的光電板它的右上角這個是破碎的這個湖板下面還有金屬的這個擴建耶中間這張是什麼破碎的光電板很嚴重的現在環境部長在那連那個廢棄的電線都還在那裡右邊是什麼剛剛看那個亮亮的"},{"start":11726.388,"end":11744.135,"text":"破碎的光電板經濟部到底是怎樣是眼睛有業障一般人都看得到你們看不到還是你們變成一個造謠部並沒有沒有 為什麼直接為什麼我們今天不是只有看得到全台灣民眾都看得到還是你們看不到你們還要發個新聞稿說是民眾在造謠"},{"start":11745.393,"end":11773.779,"text":"並沒有這個事情第一個我們除了全部的這個戰事區這個部分我們在災後協調戰事區我們清完了之後我們還定期派人去比如說像這兩天我們還派著同仁然後去現場去看因為有一些的地方他可能被泥土所遮蓋的慢慢的有出來的那當然我們這個會要求他去處理不是你說的那個什麼被泥土掩蓋嘛對不對你說你們都還找人下去看那你們怎麼可以在8號跟16號"},{"start":11775.441,"end":11800.078,"text":"你們不只是說已經清完欸你們還說民眾不要再以而傳而欸你們是要反駁聯合報的報導 反駁立法院的質詢欸你們這樣不是在自打嘴巴嗎不是 那張照片的出處我們會去了解一下那張照片的出處我們絕對會去了解來來 我再給你看剛講的是 戰事區對不對你說戰事區把制洪池都處理好了 來 我給你看這是新聞的制洪池欸電話下一下 請請測測"},{"start":11806.257,"end":11818.113,"text":"那个是什么 像小船是不是几十艘的小船 现在在志鸿池的上面这个 我的是怎么会看不到 你还找人下去看"},{"start":11819.196,"end":11837.319,"text":"不過我們定期去巡檢確實是如此這個裡面的這個浮台據我的同仁去現場巡檢了解它大概有可能有兩種樣態一種樣態是它是定位點的這個浮台第二個部分是過去沉在這個水面裡面的話"},{"start":11837.859,"end":11865.121,"text":"那慢慢因為水波的這個衝擊或水利的衝擊慢慢再浮出來了所以這也是為什麼我們今天還有再請人家去尋檢的關係我們不會說清完的時候完全置之不理你可能清不乾淨結果你還敢發兩篇新聞稿還罵說大家以兒傳兒連我在立法院在質詢你們都可以講說都清完了就救資料我現在給你最新的資料那這樣不是變成兩個很嚴重問題嗎你清完這個東西你變成是一個錯誤的消息"},{"start":11865.842,"end":11886.618,"text":"第二個你還幫別人造謠 變成自己在造謠啦而且這個啦 你看 次長你看十幾... 十...好像那個小船一樣 十幾艘以上在那個水面上你都... 你只要走過去 一般的民眾就看得到啦不要媒體去採訪 不要立法院去看一般民眾只要從這個新聞 這個大馬路過去就看到了捏啊你還在損損沒 你不是故意在誤導嗎"},{"start":11888.557,"end":11916.051,"text":"我不要只有罵你啦我是說我現在是跟你講道理講得很清楚我給你看有圖有真相對不對啊這個是新聞的這個志鵬池你趕快找人去看好不好謝謝委員的資料給我們順便去尋查一下我會給你啊你也看一下你看一下不是只有那個小船在左邊飄你看右邊來來OK我給你看一下右邊那個是什麼那是廢棄的光電板啊那麼清楚啊來再下一張我為他證實是昨天去的喔我特別拿了昨天的報紙給你喝飽"},{"start":11917.728,"end":11942.944,"text":"昨天鄭麗文 前天當選這個黨主席鄭麗文當選國民黨黨主席 對這是19號的報紙我昨天人就在這個地方那我看到就剛剛講 剛剛給大家看了18號跟19號裡面的戰事區沒有清完志鵬池 該清的沒有清完你看 這個志鵬池 你看旁邊這個是什麼這是個很完整的光電板 整個整個好好的 整座都在這裡好好的"},{"start":11945.07,"end":11953.056,"text":"你怎麼連這東西都沒清呢右邊是破碎的光電板你隨便一看就抓得到了這個我們去查明一下"},{"start":11954.269,"end":11979.356,"text":"那個市長你們當初當初沒有會漏洞這麼大沒看到是你們自己去看的還是環境部給你們資料不是吧不是我們有自己我們在後有沒有最後因為時間有限來我整理了一下OK來下來我來我們最後時間有限我做一個第一個我鄭重的呼籲不是只有立法院在問政我很感動聯合報的記者一組人"},{"start":11980.475,"end":12000.156,"text":"一組人去做了90天對嘉義廢棄的光電板的追蹤他們說什麼 這是一個食言的教訓政策暴衝導致短短4年一個颱風來就翻車了而且要全民去買單到現在該清的還沒清完是不是污染了土地然後還要講說民眾在造謠這都嚴重的一個事情"},{"start":12001.614,"end":12028.297,"text":"我請那個部長跟次長回氣號看一看聯合報的那個追蹤報導90天的追蹤報導 好不好另外我做三個 簡單我做三個要求 來第一個 針對這一次為什麼出現剛剛我講的根本沒有清完 你竟然講說是清完了到底出了什麼問題 實地再去勘查 好不好然後盡快提出一個檢討沒有清完了 趕快清走 好不好這是第一個要求 第三個"},{"start":12029.693,"end":12058.539,"text":"一定要水面光電板的一個災害的應變計畫這個應該是環境部跟經濟部要趕快盡力出來好不好要趕緊 第二個我們民眾黨已經針對水庫跟水面型上面要納這個環評請環境部跟行政院跟經濟部不是只有做評估啦趕快提出一個正面板來好不好就提這三大要求好 一起努力拜託一下大家只要到嘉義"},{"start":12059.835,"end":12069.684,"text":"新聞還有一些那個志望寺那個旁邊去看就會發現戰志區跟志望寺都在那邊清乾淨 趕緊把它清乾淨 好 謝謝好 謝謝張綺凱委員發言 請洪孟凱委員發言好 感謝主席 麻煩請環境部彭部長"},{"start":12089.734,"end":12117.887,"text":"請彭部長部長好 部長好 部長很務實的來探討光電板的一個部分我延續剛剛召委的一個問題我先請教現在全台灣到底有多少光電板以重量來看這個要去算一下啦因為總共大概是15GW15GW重量 因為我們現在討論的是光電板現在發電以及未來20年後可能要清除的所以應該要現在算出來可以盤點出來現在台灣多少光電板"},{"start":12119.427,"end":12146.016,"text":"呃 這個因為它每一個順序的時間不一樣排出的時間也不一樣所以我們到目前為止都不知道此時此刻台灣有多少光電板15Gigawatt所以我們大概可以算推算呃 這個請能源署來算來 還是能源署 來經濟部次長因為那個片有大有小來 沒有問題大小這是 但是這很務實我們今天算科學 科學 數學這都很務實的數字現在台灣此時此刻有多少光電板重量來講"},{"start":12149.53,"end":12170.212,"text":"這個重量我們要計算一下 不知道 也不知道基本上我們現在設置了15.1GW 是 我都清楚但是我現在要了解的是說有多少 為什麼我會問這個問題 因為再來接下來第二 這次颱風毀損了多少光電板以我們現在看到的是有2000公噸的廢棄物 是不是"},{"start":12172.906,"end":12185.222,"text":"對 兩千噸兩千噸嘛那兩千噸的廢棄物平均要處理因為有近有遠有這個難易處理兩千噸的廢棄物要處理要花費多少錢 有沒有推估"},{"start":12187.028,"end":12205.273,"text":"因為這個是他光電業者跟回收業者的商業行為有的貴有的便宜有的一公斤可能只要20幾塊有的要開到30幾塊不一定但我的意思是說2000噸的這個處理廢棄物推估要花多少費用我所知道大概花幾億左右幾億左右幾億是幾億"},{"start":12208.735,"end":12226.805,"text":"部長為什麼會問這個問題 很簡單嘛業者羊毛出在羊身上如果說這一次破損了兩千公噸高達幾億元的部分那會不會業者他沒有辦法負擔然後他到時候就是擺爛變爛攤子不會不會 那以及現在全台灣到底有幾公噸的光電板"},{"start":12227.785,"end":12248.538,"text":"因為每年都會有颱風那我們想要了解的是說我們現在到底不定時炸彈今年因為颱風來而毀損了2000噸的廢棄物造成幾億的額外的支出那未來我們如果說以之後要報廢的光電板來算那這幾年我們就真的只能祈禱台灣都風調雨順 國泰民安"},{"start":12251.328,"end":12280.344,"text":"不然今年破損兩千噸明年破損一千噸那每年是不是都會有業者增加的額外的成本收入那這一些都應該是主管機關去掌握跟要求我們才能夠確保是說有沒有辦法推行這個政策的時候確實業者能夠到最後處理這些廢棄物嗎包委員 這個兩千噸目前我們算到平均的價格大概是一噸是上萬塊所以整個這次兩千多噸他們自己要負擔六億左右六億左右 對"},{"start":12281.164,"end":12299.969,"text":"不會讓他們逃掉吧當然不會啊因為他們基本上跟能源署都有簽約的你先講不會啦我先姑且相信不過再來我們看到2032年環境部最拼評估太陽能的發電廢棄物高達5萬公噸剛講2000公噸就要花6億那5萬公噸要花多少錢你剛剛講一個平均30塊5萬公噸"},{"start":12309.915,"end":12311.336,"text":"15億喔 還是150億150億那有沒有算過這150億誰買單基本上他如果是正常廚藝的話因為他們有交給如果2039年"},{"start":12325.816,"end":12346.642,"text":"每公會將近10萬噸10萬公噸的廢棄物1公噸剛剛你講了1公斤30塊10萬公噸會是300億對不對也就是剛剛我們召委有講到就是說你實際的處理成本可能到了397億可是你現在收的回收清潔費每千瓦只有1000塊"},{"start":12348.024,"end":12370.197,"text":"所以你平均差別有兩倍以上 差了兩百多億那這兩百多億要誰買單報告委員 因為現在量比較少所以量供需之間 因為他才開始在做從來沒有那麼大量過所以第一個是現在的市場上還不均衡那我們預期未來會均衡當然啦 那個價格應該是要把它調升啦"},{"start":12371.107,"end":12395.252,"text":"你說回收 回收的清潔費應該要調升對 我們其實有跟能源署在討論過這個事情因為2019年以前你設的光電板的業者是不是連繳回收清潔費都沒繳是 沒錯是嘛那你現在制度上面已經有公平性的一個缺陷你現在又持續的增加可是我們增加的這個回收清潔費也都沒有收足額日本已經出來了"},{"start":12396.292,"end":12418.906,"text":"上個月的新聞 日本就講說光電板的報廢潮會是一個未來非常嚴重而且是燙手的山芋尤其日本講說到2035年左右是會有50萬公噸的光電板日本的業者 日本的這個能源大臣直接講啊環境大臣環境大臣直接講啊 回收費用誰出無人買單啊"},{"start":12420.523,"end":12438.057,"text":"所以如果說我們現在已經看到可能10年20年左右的問題就已經有那麼龐大的一個成本支出而現在我們的經濟部相關的政策就是一直來光電光電來使用來申請但是光電會面臨到兩個問題第一問題是可能颱風每年都來一次來的颱風就會回損"},{"start":12442.519,"end":12467.216,"text":"這次是極端啦不是每一次都會那麼多因為以前也沒那麼多過所以你也沒有辦法保證我們的極端氣候只會越來越多越來越少沒有辦法保證嘛這是第一個我本席當然不希望我也希望台灣風調也順國泰民安但是實際今年已經面臨到這樣的問題啦在今年以前也沒有人也沒有人知道說現在我們光電板那麼的脆弱一次颱風來就會有那麼大量的一個破損"},{"start":12468.217,"end":12492.725,"text":"那第二個部分是我們看到可能預期的將來我們至少都還有幾十年可以活吧我們預期的將來10年20年左右就會有幾百億的處理費用應該要做處理而這些處理費用如果沒有預售的話到時候誰買單不知道業者他現在賺錢賺得很開心但會不會他到了那時間點之後他就雙手一攤沒錢了脫產了變賣了"},{"start":12495.523,"end":12502.928,"text":"他政府國家公司關閉了那逃走了怎麼辦還是要換一個人頭那是誰要誰要處理"},{"start":12504.707,"end":12529.316,"text":"部長這是不是一個問題我相信這是我們共同應該要面對的問題我認為報告委員其實這個回收你不要把它當成廢棄物啦所以我們在未來要修雙法的時候也希望委員來支持我認同啊能夠利用回收再利用我當然認同但是現在就很務實的層面就是說那你要告訴我你剛剛算的每公斤30元是不是就最低標準你至少你要花每公斤30元處理成本嘛"},{"start":12529.896,"end":12556.853,"text":"那如果說真的是這個處理成本就在這邊的話那就是鐵打的成本在那裡那你就要回推是說那你現在到底有此時此刻多少噸未來要花每公斤30元你應該這樣回頭來去算你就可以算得出你現在應該預期我們要怎麼樣解決這個問題嘛當然當然也因此剛剛召委才提出來您也講了應該要去算怎麼樣我們要來面臨到這個問題啊是這是一個債務模型的問題"},{"start":12557.694,"end":12565.211,"text":"沒錯 那這個辦法誰要來提出我們能源署跟我們循環署他們就是在磋商這個事情什麼時候可以提出"},{"start":12566.621,"end":12590.251,"text":"一個具體可行這個是減碳足跡我們講說淨零碳排的時候我們要看減碳路徑那一樣光電板的設置我們現在也沒有說反對光電板喔但我的意思是說你要預先設想20年後15年後廢棄的光電板怎麼處理那你的廢棄光電板處理路徑什麼時候可以提出我們剛剛兩個數都有代表說是年底之前提出方案"},{"start":12590.731,"end":12596.234,"text":"好 提出方案我們要再來檢視具體與否以及真的是否可行 因為我們都關注到這個問題了對 謝謝謝謝洪孟愷委員發言請牛許廷委員發言謝謝主席 彭部長有請請彭部長"},{"start":12617.779,"end":12643.845,"text":"劉委員好 黃部長午安 辛苦了這今天除了光電板之外 噪音管制法也很重要這本席作為提案人 這花一點點質詢的時間我們提早把一些問題做釐清後面在逐條的時候速度可以加快這我有看到環境部的報告我們這次提噪音管制法修正大概幾個方向第一個是主管機關嘛 名字總要修嘛因為升格環境部 這應該沒有太大的問題那麼主要是26條 也有非常多的委員提大概就是幾個方向 第一叫提高罰緩嘛"},{"start":12644.705,"end":12665.312,"text":"第二個叫加入吊扣牌照的機制第三是本席提出的加入環境講習分別做這幾件事情來做一下討論第一個請教部長的意見有關於噪音車的橫行都會造成破壞大家生活品質這樣一個狀況部長同不同意應該要予以嚴懲重罰以嚇阻相關行為同意"},{"start":12666.152,"end":12690.262,"text":"非常同意 非常同意所以基本上各委員的版本只要能夠順利的整合提高法環都會支持嗎是 支持我們部裡面有沒有自己的版本目前沒有 我們都遵照委員的這個意見部裡面沒有自己的版本但是會對支持委員的想法對 遵照委員的意見 謝謝第二有關於吊扣牌照的機制這部長你覺得怎麼樣從我們的地方環保局給我們的反應他們非常認可這樣的一個制度"},{"start":12690.982,"end":12705.875,"text":"所以基本上尊重地方意見其實部裡面應該也會從善如流對不對因為本席其實是希望吊扣牌照的機制要盡快來入法而且其實我個人的意見是越嚴格越好啦因為你只有很多有條件搞噪音車的人大概也不怕你罰還啦"},{"start":12706.856,"end":12727.187,"text":"但是法環是一定要做的嘛 你不能不做嘛所以吊扣牌照 沒收車輛等等 這樣東西才會有效嚇阻好 那謝謝部長講得非常清楚第三個比較特別 因為其實剛剛前兩個您在你的這個部裡面的書面報告裡面也講得蠻清楚就基本上都表示同意 這本期非常感謝我們希望可以趕快完成這個工作那第三個本期提的這個新增262項是講說增加環境講習的規定"},{"start":12730.909,"end":12748.909,"text":"這個環境講習的意思就是說就像這個現在違反很多道路交通守則的祭典祭到一定程度之後就要去上課嘛那上課對大家來講當然就是一種麻煩嘛那這個麻煩它其實就是一種變相嚇阻的這樣一個效果那我想這個兆英從兆管法的角度來增加環境講習的規定一樣你這個在調控牌照跟罰環之間一樣有這種"},{"start":12752.239,"end":12770.253,"text":"中間的這樣子的一個違規情勢的時候要予以環境講習那這部分因為在書面報告裡面講得很清楚是不是請部長說明一下你們對於環境講習這樣的想法這邊支持委員的提案因為像空污法如果違反的話我們也是要求他們要去上課的真的齁好"},{"start":12772.535,"end":12791.878,"text":"那本期目前對於詢答的內容也非常滿意我們希望我特別要感謝一下我們廖偉強召委啊特派審的召應管制法剛剛部長都同意啊那我想這修法的時候會很順利我們希望這樣的民生法案趕快來三讀之後來質詢感謝部長那我們還是要談一下太陽能光電板部長你也是桃園人對不對你會支持皮糖重電嗎"},{"start":12793.099,"end":12818.18,"text":"呃 基本上齁 這個過去已經發生過很多的案例啦齁那基本上因為皮糖其實它是有一定的一個功能啦齁那過去一開始有過但是後來我所知道是都不大接受了是啊 我們那時候本席還是桃園市市議員基本上是地方議會當中是強力的反對後來才幫這樣子的案件踩了煞車那最近又開始出現什麼水庫重電等等那當然其實都會有"},{"start":12818.86,"end":12838.11,"text":"一樣的疑慮嘛 包含水質如何來做確保光電板的退場機制等等它其實都是很大的問題所以現在很多的委員都希望比如說納入環評機制或什麼我希望部長要採好環境部的本位嘛好不好 我們三個方向來做簡單的提點就好第一個 選址跟審查制度啦它可能要比"},{"start":12838.61,"end":12855.583,"text":"本來更嚴格你一開始做政策鼓勵因為推動綠能這本行願意理解但他如果造成一些成本外部化的時候他本來就要與時俱進做調整所以審查制度的修訂可能是需要思考的第二個是很多委員都講過我就不贅述了廢棄物模組的回收跟處理系統的落實嘛他是一個高成本的問題我們很擔心"},{"start":12856.744,"end":12875.343,"text":"很多的廠商只會開案但沒有辦法收場造成很多的成本不可以外部化的這是本席的提醒第三個當然就是敏感的區域嘛水庫也好 皮湯也好 農地也好它的設置退場跟土地富裕的機制我想這都是要站在環境部的本位那麼未來大家再進入一些機制的討論的時候我希望部長就不用"},{"start":12876.384,"end":12903.389,"text":"顧慮其他政府的時候有時候我們就不管是勞動權也好環保權也好本來在過去經濟發展的本位裡面他是相對弱勢的但部長的角色很重要是就希望採好這樣立場我們把機制完善好避免外部化大家才對綠能政策的推動會比較放心可以嗎好時間有限我們就說到這邊謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員發言先宣告待會羅廷維委員質詢完畢後休息用餐20分鐘休息後繼續開會"},{"start":12910.428,"end":12915.559,"text":"謝謝主席 有請環境部 經濟部請洪部長和池主"},{"start":12919.191,"end":12945.172,"text":"陸委員好部長想跟你就教幾個問題我想我們這一次因為颱風有許多的風電設施擋不住颱風所以造成了整個毀損那我們看到屏東嘉義環境部說有災損的總計有33暗場光電板那當初這些光電板在設置的時候並沒有做環評所以8月27號的時候有要求做事後的補救總體檢請問做了嗎"},{"start":12946.933,"end":12975.541,"text":"資料能不能提供這個能源署他們有特別去做我們有協商好 請說我們針對於丹納斯受損的31個案場還有4個比較大型的這個水面的這個案場有去做一些檢驗然後檢驗檢查的這個結果也有請業者在兩個月裡面進行改善兩個月內進行改善大致有多少要兩個月內全部都要兩個月內進行改善全部嗎"},{"start":12977.466,"end":12985.686,"text":"相關的這個缺失我們要求他兩個月內進行改善當然依照缺失的情節不一樣他有的是立即改善資料能不能提供"},{"start":12987.411,"end":13008.389,"text":"好麻煩你會後請提供那我想另外呢近期啊台灣設置在水庫跟集水區光電板遍及全國各地但相關的環評跟耐風性呢也引起了社會高度的一個關注我想請問現在多少的水庫集水區或者是在任何的河面上放置光電板不知道有沒有這樣的資料"},{"start":13009.534,"end":13032.969,"text":"我目前掌握的資料大概在是不是在水庫的水面太陽能的暗場大概是有6場6場 對 集水區呢集水區的部分因為我們從今年的1月開始針對於水庫的集水區它特別是屬於在環境敏感的區位20M以上的這個部分現在還沒有任何一個暗場現在經過這個程序審議通過的"},{"start":13036.482,"end":13047.602,"text":"我們希望還是要關注啦不管是任何的一個場域都應該有設置就應該要知道那大台中地區有哪個集水區有設置光電板部長你知道嗎"},{"start":13050.568,"end":13069.047,"text":"水庫集水區是一個非常大的概念舉例而言比如說像高雄或是台中台中的話石岡壩它非常的接近下游若是以水庫集水區的話幾乎整個所謂的大甲溪的流域都是屬於水庫的集水區"},{"start":13069.688,"end":13092.625,"text":"所以我今天想討論就是台電與大甲溪東市馬鞍後池設置的光電板根據台電的官方說明光電設施的材料為高密度的巨蜥耐酸鹼且不釋放有害的物質每年定期水質檢測台水公司配合確保水質的安全然而地方民眾跟部分團體還是憂心颱風期間漂浮結構安全與水質的長期變化"},{"start":13097.349,"end":13107.056,"text":"當然也有人在討論所謂的清洗光電板會不會有所謂的一些相關水質的污染我想是不是請部長或者是經濟部再一次的說明"},{"start":13109.319,"end":13131.317,"text":"針對於我們綠能的發展或是太陽能光電事實上我們在今年年初對於不管是環社的檢核或是景觀生態還有地方知情權都有強化的要求所以基本上我們會先要求說開發業者在當地先召開地方的說明會"},{"start":13132.677,"end":13145.903,"text":"我想我的問題比較具體一點就是你可不可以能夠具體的保證現在設置這些光電板不會影響到水質可以嗎還有清洗會不會影響到水質"},{"start":13146.55,"end":13175.289,"text":"那當然因為所有的太陽能的電板都是非常穩定的材料無論是過去設置的或是未來所開發的這個太陽能的耳光電板它的性質都是一樣那過去所設置的我剛剛說明了六處的水庫的這個設置我們定期的檢驗水質不管是經濟部所管或是農業部所管到目前的這個部分定期檢驗的這個結果水質都合乎我們國家的標準好 謝謝你"},{"start":13176.149,"end":13186.101,"text":"那我想在這一個案場當中我所提到的大甲溪那這些設置在設置的之前呢是否全數經過環評檢測"},{"start":13190.285,"end":13208.522,"text":"他要看那個規模大小那目前就我剛剛所提的啦就以大甲溪我們這一個東勢馬鞍後池那你後面要不要補你是不是應該當初未辦理啊那你環境部憲政在檢討嘛對不對你要要把他納入環評的標準是否會追溯你確定會追溯"},{"start":13209.363,"end":13223.579,"text":"基本上那個環評的概念是沒有追溯但是新蓋的就要開始接受環評所以我想問就是說這個部分是不是應該要追蹤一下我們都很關切啦隨面型的光電板納入審查範圍我想希望能夠啟動這樣環評什麼時候可以"},{"start":13226.659,"end":13252.894,"text":"目前我們是20公頃所以你有分大小嗎我們有分大小當然你說一片兩片你說真的是小到可能我們不予計較那就算了可是以大甲西光這個影片所看到的那個案場那以非專業人士我們都會有所疑慮那當時沒有啟動這個環評那未來能不能追溯去啟動我想位於颱風台灣位於這個颱風"},{"start":13255.735,"end":13284.234,"text":"我們非常多而且丹納斯所造成的這樣大面積的一個情況顯示浮動的這個光電耐風性還是明顯不足所以我想部長我強調綠能不可以建立在這個破壞水源的代價之上所以我們也希望未來在環評階段能夠聽取地方的意見加強溝通剛剛有提到也會不管未來如果設置的時候也會有地方的一個說明會對不對這個部分我希望能夠加強那另外我想再請問五街環評的一個審查"},{"start":13286.135,"end":13299.48,"text":"今天環團在立法院召開記者會對於環境部長就任後首提的環委名單卻因環公獨大遭抨擊那彭部長主政之下官派及民間的領選環委也是健康專長的雙掛鈴"},{"start":13301.121,"end":13320.647,"text":"那對於這樣子的一個記者會部長 環團要求重提環委的名單喔你有沒有什麼要回應的包委喔 因為這個環評委員是有一套機制的這個選拔也各界來推薦出來的所以其實那個是我如果環團如果有希望有自己的人選也希望能夠多提出來那基本上所以你願意跟環團溝通"},{"start":13321.747,"end":13339.853,"text":"其實基本上大家要聽因為那個有一個程序上來之後最後只有一個加倍的名單我可以來勾選那這一次呢總共這個民間的14位代表裡面有7位7位是屬於環工科系的但是環工也不是說開發智商喔他們自己有一個特別的聲明其中7位裡面有一位教授"},{"start":13340.253,"end":13357.344,"text":"他本身過去就中國醫藥大學的健康風險評估他就是做健康風險評估的所以這個大家的意見可能並不是如有些人這樣的其實我們是都有考慮在裡面我對個別的委員沒有意見我想但是這個記者會的內容我想應該多方參考去了解我們會參考"},{"start":13358.325,"end":13376.313,"text":"因為在這個911號公佈的第二屆環評委員名單中工程領域他們是說高達9人歷年最多一次那剛剛你有提到有所回應但是委員名單分佈且來自四個學科領域是歷屆最少醫藥的衛生委員他們則是掛鈴顯見專業結構單一這是他們的一個說法我希望說部長在本屆環委的隸屬四個學科領域"},{"start":13384.336,"end":13404.37,"text":"創立年新低他的遴選標準跟程序為何那為什麼醫藥掛零這個部分你可以再回應一下嗎包委員其實這個我們都有健康風險評估因為這個環評不是醫藥這不是醫藥的一個問題是健康風險評估所以我們裡面有一位專家就是風險評估的專家在裡面健康風險在裡面"},{"start":13405.21,"end":13424.122,"text":"我還是希望能夠多跟環團多做溝通那在這個 也跟你另外請教一下據聞本週將進行五階級中游試騎的環評大會有此事嗎沒有確定沒有他們的確送了報告但是現在讓委員在審核當中我自己都還沒有看到"},{"start":13424.622,"end":13452.457,"text":"所以目前的這個我相信可能委員有一些意見會叫他們提出書面意見目前我們還沒有進到排審的一個階段我想台中人擔心的是針對不論是五街或中游市區均要在台中港搶建LNG的這個接收設施而在多數環工背景的環評委員在中央受益下會不會有快速環評闖關這是我們擔憂我們希望能夠過程中能夠多溝通更圓融然後也能夠多聽聽地方的意見"},{"start":13453.377,"end":13471.09,"text":"那最後我想講的是噪音管制法今天我剛好在做所謂的提案說明的時候您也有在現場那許多的委員也很關注不管是罰款提高或者是調扣所謂的牌照我想環境部的都是覺得非常樂觀其成是嗎"},{"start":13471.73,"end":13491.375,"text":"支持委員的想法我們真的希望這件事情能夠加快速度因為民眾真的是苦不堪言所以也非常感謝昭緯這麼有智慧的趕緊排審那我們一起來努力也希望環境部能夠加大力度那最後想請問一下環境部聲音照相的科技執法啟動以來全台已佈建多少套設備"},{"start":13493.672,"end":13515.225,"text":"幾百套啦 幾百套 因為 之前就跟我講幾百套因為315套 你覺得夠嗎當然不夠啊 但是我也 因為 看起來還不如趕快修法是吧才化法過了之後我們本來希望更多啦 但是才化法過後之後因為我們主計單位也告訴我們說其實有些是地方的 直接採購跟補貼"},{"start":13516.966,"end":13542.275,"text":"鼓勵地方採購嘛 我想裁判法過後是錢又是權 大家一起想辦法嘛那我想不管是 因為我也曾擔任過議員地方的採購也是非常緩慢啦那所以我想不管是多管齊下的一個方式來解決噪音改裝的這個問題我們應該來努力那個裁罰件數啊 分佈啊這個是我們會後希望能夠再就教也希望這相關的數據能夠提供給我們是 好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":13545.527,"end":13548.899,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員發言那我們現在休息20分鐘謝謝"},{"start":14561.527,"end":14565.316,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14664.002,"end":14665.907,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":15290.888,"end":15301.19,"text":"現在繼續開會那請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在那我們接著請楊瓊英委員發言 謝謝謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 首先邀請環境部部長請彭部長楊委員好"},{"start":15318.547,"end":15338.296,"text":"部長好 我們看到從7月份的丹納斯颱風它毀損光電板的部分大概有10萬片當然這是顯性的數字我們不知道隱性的還有沒有但是我們看到烏山頭水庫浮動的太陽能板引發外界"},{"start":15339.056,"end":15368.042,"text":"的一個質疑說是不是會影響到水質的問題雖然政府也表示了這個對環境沒有什麼影響水質也無虞但是民眾還是認為不安心還是不安心所以因此政府好像事先沒有跟民眾說明清楚所以我首先要請教部長在環境部研議要將水面型的光電納入環評是不是有這回事"},{"start":15368.622,"end":15384.71,"text":"對 我們在研議當中那表示也就是說我們當時核准的時候我們也沒有想到會有這樣的事件發生對 其實因為全世界的這個水面型的光電就我們現在收集到的資料是沒有一個國家有水面型的光電有環頻"},{"start":15386.055,"end":15409.513,"text":"沒有 所以我們創因為我們看到這個事情這個面向民眾的不安所以我們預計要來研議將水面型的光電納入這個環評就陳磊你說的全世界還沒有那所以本期要請教因為民眾的安心非常重要跟地方政府來溝通也是非常的重要所以本期要請教預計什麼時候你們可以完成"},{"start":15410.072,"end":15424.947,"text":"我們希望年底之前因為我們現在10月31號以前我們因為其實這次我們的這個執法的修正不是只有水面型的光電還包含其他的項目所以我們現在在匯集意見當中我們希望一次的由本部的這個執法我們會來進行公聽"},{"start":15428.09,"end":15445.827,"text":"針對本席的提問也就是水面型的這個光電必須要納入環評你剛剛回答是說預計年底12月底以前能夠給社會大眾一個面向一個方向因為推動綠能落實在精靈碳排的部分是大家的共識"},{"start":15446.588,"end":15465.598,"text":"但是社會的共識跟民眾對於光電板的一個疑慮政府更應該要有負責任的而且不應該來忽視所以我們預計是在12月底能夠提出接下來本學要請教7月上旬的當然是颱風重創了南台灣"},{"start":15467.699,"end":15496.478,"text":"它高達的17級的陣風尤其讓位於滋洪池的水面的光電板受寵非常的嚴重那儘管這個是佔台灣所有整體性受損的光電板總體量是1%但是在水面被吹得一團亂的這些光電板還是讓人民觸目驚心還是非常的觸目驚心那受寵光電板超過了10萬片"},{"start":15497.979,"end":15523.72,"text":"超過了2000公噸這個數字幾乎相當於過去五年全台廢棄物的總和五年全台廢棄物的一個總和所以本席要請教院長也已經指示要將廢棄物清理法來做修正也就是說將光電板納入應回收的這個廢棄物的"},{"start":15526.983,"end":15549.674,"text":"範圍 內容 那請教目前的進度是如何呢報告委員 我們現在在修法的當中本部的修法的內容已經把這樣的概念已經融入進來的那整個廢青法的修正現在在院裡面在審核當中行政院那邊審查當中我們希望盡早可以送到大院能夠讓委員來用 院裡面審查當中那你們的KPI預計什麼時候會送進來呢"},{"start":15551.175,"end":15567.916,"text":"我們也希望能夠快一點因為院長也已經指示了你所謂的能夠快大概是什麼時候呢我們希望這個會期就可以送到大院來這個會期送來因為本席要告訴你的是說經過了一段時間之後它毀損的光電板所留下來還有細小的"},{"start":15569.353,"end":15586.723,"text":"矽晶片的一個碎片甚至還有玻璃的顆粒甚至還有塑膠浮桶的碎片還有電線散落在岸邊甚至我們看到有部分是它吹來吹去深埋在土裡頭"},{"start":15588.566,"end":15604.984,"text":"這些的問題都必須要去解決所以我們看到根據目前你環境部你的資料裡頭是說目前我們台灣可以有核准可以處理這些光電板的業者大概是只有4家"},{"start":15605.885,"end":15632.058,"text":"所以包含了你希望盡快在這個會期送進來第二個議題也就是說目前你核准的這些處理只有試一下那符合這些容量嗎請說說現在是可以的那我們也鼓勵因為但是有一個問題就是說這次發生的這個關聯板損毀是在南部那我們的幾家大的全部都在北部特別是桃園跟苗栗所以距離有點遠費用就相對的運送比較高"},{"start":15632.538,"end":15636.692,"text":"所以我們現在也鼓勵南部也應該有一些回收的業者來做這個事情"},{"start":15637.262,"end":15664.889,"text":"所以也就是我們修法然後我們要將它納入那同時也要到底我們能不能做得到這一個容量都必須要整體性去考量接下來最後一個議題我想要邀請這個經濟部因為風災之後我們的光電暗場滿目倉儀也讓民眾十分的憂心對於環境的一個影響因此卓院長也特別指示經濟部你要組成跨部會的總體"},{"start":15666.852,"end":15668.838,"text":"體檢小組 有沒有這回事啊"},{"start":15670.29,"end":15695.288,"text":"謝謝委員你們成立了嗎當那次颱風之後我們這些體檢針對31個案場包括我們這個外界矚目的水面型的部分我們都有去檢查了那我們也指定他一定的時間來完成改善什麼時候完成因為要進行整體性的場館管理還有抗災的韌性災害應變機制以及災後清除復原的這些整體性的檢討特別是在強化整個光電案"},{"start":15699.691,"end":15707.243,"text":"暗藏裡面的防災韌性所以你針對目前所體檢你預計什麼時候可以完成這些體檢"},{"start":15709.112,"end":15733.565,"text":"這個問題分為兩個部分針對抗防災的這個韌性的部分我們已經頒布了相關的規定要求所有的開發廠商必須要提出災害防救計畫併入在災害防救計畫裡面這就是以前我們核准的時候我們並沒有提出所以現在碰到了這些實例我們提出那本席要請教也就是說目前你的進度來"},{"start":15736.379,"end":15754.508,"text":"這個所謂的規定已經公告了這第一個 第二個的話 針對於體檢的缺失還有一些很少數的部分還沒有完成改善我們會持續的來追蹤你持續的來追蹤 你預計什麼時候完成體檢因為卓院長指示啊你預計什麼時候完成這些體檢啊"},{"start":15756.338,"end":15785.141,"text":"我們要求他大概年底前要提出來然後提出來之外我們還要複查去確定他所提出來的改善事項或是進行的改善事項有沒有合乎我們的標準為什麼本席要提出這個呢因為民眾很憂心到底他有沒有狀況他有沒有毒他要怎麼處理所以您現在給本席的回答就是說在年底以前你們的復檢一定會來做完成給國人報告是不是如此"},{"start":15785.761,"end":15804.829,"text":"對 而且這個 所以它那光電板它是非常穩定的這個物質啦它基本上對水質都有影響請針對本席的提問 是不是年底前你會檢查完畢 然後復檢完成 給國人報告是不是如此 是 是 是謝謝好 謝謝楊春英委員發言請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":15815.103,"end":15831.429,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想主席 各位同仁我國推動這個太陽能光電是邁向2050近零轉型一個重要的基礎的措施所以我完全支持再生能源發展的方向"},{"start":15832.069,"end":15858.52,"text":"那在這次的風災裡面我們也看到部分的這個光電暗場當然存在著很多的設置的風險還有環境管理的不足還有廢板這些處理延遲等等的問題所以我想今天在這個執行過程裡面不是在反對光電我是希望能夠協助政府來完善制度強化民眾對於綠能的信任我想"},{"start":15859.44,"end":15872.611,"text":"基本上重點是這樣子可是面對這次的風災所造成太陽光電板的受損還有這些板材外溢的甚至危及到民眾的生命財產安全所以我們認為除了研議如何精進這個環評的這個制度之外"},{"start":15874.733,"end":15898.386,"text":"更迫切的課題是要針對能源署對於現有以及審查中的光電暗場是否已經建立完善而且可執行的防災管理機制所以本席希望把焦點放在光電設施的防治治理責任跟制度的缺口我相信這不僅是產業署要管理的議題更攸關公共安全跟國土韌性"},{"start":15898.946,"end":15923.994,"text":"所以要先請教能源署李署長來這邊討論有關於相關的問題請署長署長你好是委員好是來我先請教一下因為上個月裡面有提到這個太陽光電的這個暗場設置是依法需要由專業的技師來簽證法官那另外這個"},{"start":15925.394,"end":15944.926,"text":"本次的風災裡面 能源署也會同電業審查委員針對全國水面型的光電案場一共有31案來完成電業的檢驗所以也希望能夠在兩個月裡面就要完成改善同時要加強宣導業者能夠落實平時的巡檢"},{"start":15945.846,"end":15965.311,"text":"想要請教第一個就是那這31個案場目前改善的情形如何具體的改善做了哪一些事情還有將來地面型的光電的這個場也是不是也要納入檢查如何能夠宣導業者能夠在平時落實這個他的巡檢是可以跟大家報告"},{"start":15966.151,"end":15979.139,"text":"兩個部分 一個部分就是剛才講這些水面型的我們有三十一個案場我們去把它再做一次全面的體檢那麼其中有二十二個案場大概是比較簡單 受損比較輕微的"},{"start":15981.38,"end":16008.942,"text":"那有九個案場是受損比較嚴重的那麼有五個那我們是希望他能夠提出改善計畫來在兩個月的時間也就是剛才講的他要提出他的改善計畫然後去做完改善那我們這個在年底前我們會再去複查他有沒有辦法完成改善那另外有四個案場是受損比較嚴重的就是我們看到比較多的那個滯洪池裡面再加一那"},{"start":16009.562,"end":16031.22,"text":"那受損比較嚴重那我們通常就是說請他提出改善計畫那有的有的案場我們了解就是說他可能就不改善他清走就清走他就損失了就是原來比如說原來他可能設置是3M但是有1M受到損害了他可能未來那個就清運走了我們是注重他會清運乾淨他可能就不再"},{"start":16032.421,"end":16057.157,"text":"增加修復它了那這個我們在年底之前會做完一個報告那第二部分就是剛才我們第二個槌尋的就是說其餘有關地面型的不只是水面型的就是地面型的這些太陽光電我們有什麼加強的措施那我們剛才也次長也報告我們現在是要求它依照災防法要去提出災害防救計畫"},{"start":16058.158,"end":16073.729,"text":"災害防救計畫除了事先災害來之前的準備作業也包括後面事後的廢棄物的清理那我們這個辦法已經公告了那我們會要求這些大型的業者他要提出依災方法提出災防的計畫"},{"start":16074.909,"end":16098.729,"text":"所以聽起來都有依照這個規定要求在執行中是那我們也期待能夠很快把這些該做的事情做好不過針對於這個業者落實平時的巡檢這邊是要做宣導這比較奇怪這個是一個責任為什麼還要宣導本來應該做的事情有沒有更強的這個措施來把這個事情可以更完整的落實"},{"start":16099.429,"end":16121.239,"text":"是我們宣導就是說要叫他要落實那另外我們也會去做抽查的查核那他平常做的查核他要留下查核的記錄那我們去做抽查的時候因為我們這個案件非常多全國的太陽光店大概有9萬多件那我們去做抽查的時候他要有資料讓我們可以查"},{"start":16121.639,"end":16145.744,"text":"他自己巡檢要做記錄大概我們現在是希望他能夠加強這一方面至少他準備的工作應該做好是那了解了那就謝謝署長請回座謝謝那我們知道這次風災不僅造成了嚴重的損害也凸顯了這個回收量能的問題針對現行的回收機制本席有幾個疑問想要請教彭部長部長請委員好"},{"start":16151.106,"end":16172.497,"text":"部長 有報告知道你所說的這個全世界的光電板的容量今年年底將到達2800個Gigawatts那台灣其實現在只有到15個Gigawatts 佔比只有0.5%其中33個光電廠的部分在12.1萬片的光電廠已經在這次淡拉斯颱風裡面受損"},{"start":16173.477,"end":16193.935,"text":"另外有9.1萬片已經完成資源化的處理1.8萬片經過修剪以後是何可以再利用現在也發現有1.2萬片暫置在合法場地這邊有幾個疑問請教一下部長所謂暫置是要放多久有沒有明確的處理的期程"},{"start":16194.535,"end":16216.32,"text":"這三個月呢還是半年還是一年那另外環境部能不能或是會成立災後光電廢棄物的管理機制納入未來如果光電案審查與營運管理規範裡面避免每一次都要先放著以後再說或者是說有沒有一個制度的管理避免讓這個站置將來就變成了棄置"},{"start":16218.881,"end":16243.209,"text":"環境部不能夠只告訴我們數字也希望能夠把這個管理的流程跟處理的責任可以一併來完成好謝謝委員因為我所知道這1.2萬片它是算是一般的廢棄物那它是暫置在那個地方那按照現在的法規它大概可以最多可以只能放一年那當然它因為它的處理廠的量能還有他們之間的合約可能沒有談得很好所以會"},{"start":16243.789,"end":16264.473,"text":"拖得比較久我們會盡量能夠督促他們盡快把它處理回收完成委員提到的災後風電的廢棄物管理就是這個概念非常好因為其實全世界沒有遇過這種所謂的十幾萬片毀壞的台灣是第一個所以我們現在其實很多的國家也來主動跟我推行我們怎麼去面對的這機制到底如何"},{"start":16265.413,"end":16283.102,"text":"但是我覺得我們未來也可以自己再檢討一下所以委員提出這樣的一個方式很好我們會組成一個小組由我們循環署來訂那因為包含了我們的這個資源循環促進法其實也會把這個東西放進來所以未來我相信我們可以走到一個正向的道路去進行"},{"start":16283.504,"end":16310.62,"text":"好 我們用前瞻性的方式來應對這些問題不少您也說太陽板廢棄物將歸類為四葉廢棄物的管理並納入應回收的廢棄物這個部分本席非常的支持可是還是有一些問題需要克服在修法還沒有確定之前是否能夠提出全國各縣市環保局一致性的執法指引因為我想不只是南部 應該各縣市"},{"start":16311.721,"end":16331.147,"text":"慢慢都會碰到類似的問題還有這裡面有提到這個將來要把這個相關的費率要做合理的調整那什麼叫合理的調整未來的規劃有沒有一個方向出來也報告委員其實因為他的這個現在的供需價量有一點因為過去的量不夠所以"},{"start":16331.647,"end":16357.106,"text":"做的成本就比較高那未來量如果逐步可以起來相對的供需之間這個價格就有機會會下降那這個當然這個是需要財務模型跟推算的那這個目前呢是要由我們未來可能都是我們循環署來推動未來我們是現在目前為止是我們循環署跟能源署一起來合作所以這個部分呢我們近期就會來討論這樣的如何去計算推估未來的需求那怎麼樣做得更好"},{"start":16357.85,"end":16371.181,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長下來還有一個問題最後要請教就是有關於老舊的這些漁船太儲回收處理上面的困難在這個請教部長之前我也要先請教一下有關於農業部對這個議題有關於老舊漁船的問題會請農業部方次長"},{"start":16381.284,"end":16402.119,"text":"次長好我知道您是漁業方面的專家剛好今天有機會在這邊麻煩次長對漁業方面的問題尤其是捕撈的這個漁船的生態應該很清楚尤其是這個老舊漁船的收購是一個很艱難的議題因為有很多的面向我們要同時的去考慮"},{"start":16402.899,"end":16424.353,"text":"那我們也知道台灣其實是一個海洋國家不管是遠洋的或者是近海的這個捕撈都是非常重要的對於漁民的生計對國家來講都是重要的問題那當然這個船用久了就會有淘汰的問題可能我們面對將來會有一萬艘的這個船需要做淘汰"},{"start":16424.873,"end":16450.971,"text":"那這個淘汰的過程裡面當然我們希望能夠減少過度的捕撈永續發展淘汰不符合標準船隻等等要提升我們的競爭力還有解決這個漁會船老問題跟輔導這個漁民作業等等目前比較困難的地方就是說有關於這個漁業船使用玻璃纖維材質的這個報廢困難而且回收的費用其實是高的"},{"start":16452.552,"end":16479.225,"text":"相關的這個船舶如果沒有好好的回收其實對地方尤其是漁館是造成一些處理上的影響那這個都是大家尤其是有漁港的這個縣市共同的痛所以想要請教次長就是說我們要完成規劃政策的這個前提要很完整的這個資料統計那目前漁業署這邊有沒有相關的資料可以讓我們多了解"},{"start":16480.24,"end":16495.339,"text":"跟委員報告那我們目前有在採取的這個收購老舊漁船這樣的一個計畫那去年114年就公告了之後呢總共有將近217艘的漁船前來參與這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":16496.641,"end":16513.21,"text":"那但是受限於經費的這個有限所以我們依照我們的經費的能量然後依序的排定這樣的優先順序以這個對於生態破壞比較大的微網漁船作為第一個優先的這個收購的順序然後依次的排列那剛剛委員所垂詢有關於就是"},{"start":16513.71,"end":16538.232,"text":"比較難處理的FRP的這樣的漁船的船體的這個問題那事實上我們在以前的減船的時候也曾經做過的就是把這個漁船內部的這個油倉各項清理完畢之後做為這個漁礁這樣的一個做法那目前我們也跟這個環境部這邊有在洽談就是目前有一個有一個新的比較新的技術就是利用水泥窯的這樣的一個回收的這樣的一個機制"},{"start":16538.652,"end":16567.545,"text":"那因為FRP裡面它的這個不可燃物包括氧化鎂 氧化鋁這些的部分可以作為使用那另外可燃物的樹脂的這個部分剛好可以作為一個結合所以我們目前正在洽談這方面的這樣的可行性好 謝謝市長那是不是能夠針對於如果有完整的統計資料也可以送到本席這邊來做後續的處理是 謝謝市長市長請回那最後還是要請教部長就是說老舊漁船的問題是跟光電板的處理"},{"start":16568.545,"end":16593.927,"text":"其實有點類似有點類似因為我們知道這個回收機制的建立回收量能跟技術的確保回收預算補助機制等等都是相關我們需要去處理的地方那到底廢棄物漁船的廢棄物是事業廢棄物還是一般廢棄物目前我們的處理量能是如何那將來有沒有相關可以回收的技術這剛剛次長所提到的問題"},{"start":16594.744,"end":16618.01,"text":"那這些部長這邊有沒有開始了解或者是開始去關注到這個議題報告委員目前我們有一個科專計畫就是協助農業部在處理這個問題那現在的在試驗當中例如說剛剛講到把它進到水泥窯之後去做處理那個量能有多少我覺得委員你說的沒錯這個就跟光電板一樣需要來規劃因為那個量慢慢就會起來"},{"start":16618.59,"end":16636.271,"text":"是 所以如果相關營業的成果可不可以也讓我們可以確實掌握 可以可以好 謝謝 也請將到時候那個相關的報告可以提供委員會的委員們謝謝王振旭委員發言 請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":16647.469,"end":16650.216,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們彭部長"},{"start":16655.433,"end":16680.438,"text":"李委員好 部長部長辛苦了但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程討論這個概念因為也是一個機會極端氣候之下其實各種災害頻繁和極端化我們看都從單一災害變成複合式的災害影響的程度非常嚴重根據世界銀行的出版"},{"start":16681.038,"end":16710.336,"text":"他出版天然災害的热点全球的风险分析报告他指出台湾大概有73%的人口我们居住73%的人口居住在有三种以上灾害的可能冲击的地区第二个遭受到两种灾害冲击以上的国土地区台湾高达90%以上的国土"},{"start":16710.916,"end":16733.847,"text":"的這個地區都是兩種以上的災害的可能性所以對台灣的國土而言對台灣的人口居住的地區而言台灣的這個災害的風險要承擔的是相當相當的大的那你知道這個世界銀行出版的天然災害熱點全球風險分析這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎"},{"start":16738.294,"end":16751.142,"text":"全球UNDRR就是聯合國的災害的一個機構不是啦 出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫你們委外研究計畫是112年到113年災害準備及應變與復原支援系統計畫是你們自己的計畫"},{"start":16762.009,"end":16783.598,"text":"你們是希望透過這個計畫中系統的建置要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的準備的作業災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低"},{"start":16785.178,"end":16810.011,"text":"災後呢你們要運用環境災害管理的資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度進而有效的發揮最大的防災和救災能量這個是你們告訴我們說你們要有預算要去建置一套系統那我想請教一下這個部長就馬太安災害的這個事件請問你"},{"start":16810.911,"end":16831.104,"text":"分別在災前 災中 災後你們準備了哪些事情報告委員 災前是統計了目前我們的量能 積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎"},{"start":16832.365,"end":16849.428,"text":"對 災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎 再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統"},{"start":16859.91,"end":16873.161,"text":"那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS"},{"start":16875.564,"end":16891.099,"text":"那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的整備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢"},{"start":16892.38,"end":16911.93,"text":"錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢 花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決"},{"start":16921.474,"end":16949.391,"text":"系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新"},{"start":16949.991,"end":16974.604,"text":"即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理"},{"start":16979.266,"end":16994.063,"text":"架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎"},{"start":16995.186,"end":17010.758,"text":"報告委員 災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷"},{"start":17012.16,"end":17030.857,"text":"因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道"},{"start":17031.818,"end":17041.148,"text":"整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資"},{"start":17049.878,"end":17055.864,"text":"自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了 也叫地方要撤離了嘛"},{"start":17065.012,"end":17089.654,"text":"所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個有沒有做到這樣的"},{"start":17090.898,"end":17099.044,"text":"這樣子 保證有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎"},{"start":17101.085,"end":17124.371,"text":"我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說"},{"start":17125.331,"end":17143.033,"text":"系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統"},{"start":17143.994,"end":17165.039,"text":"可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用"},{"start":17165.839,"end":17171.102,"text":"而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式 暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出 你們的溝通方式是環境部人員手動推波賴群組 提醒地方政府要進行災情通報"},{"start":17189.614,"end":17212.455,"text":"在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了 不是我們是要風險預測"},{"start":17214.597,"end":17228.849,"text":"你要達到風險預測 你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的準備的作用嗎"},{"start":17231.314,"end":17246.776,"text":"我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛 所以我問你花多少錢你們講得這麼好聽AMIS 滴滴OK 你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧我是簡稱啦"},{"start":17248.138,"end":17257.043,"text":"那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在"},{"start":17274.934,"end":17293.809,"text":"我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講的災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針"},{"start":17300.514,"end":17305.938,"text":"這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程那他們的這個先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊非常明確的在規範的地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體這個措施平時準備的階段災害應急的階段還有這個"},{"start":17330.154,"end":17335.836,"text":"復舊復原復興的階段那災害應急的階段他們規定規範的說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準而要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散你要定期灑水"},{"start":17353.681,"end":17366.079,"text":"設置這個防飛的戰網那你處理實面建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設這個防滲透層"},{"start":17368.582,"end":17389.775,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維"},{"start":17395.678,"end":17424.364,"text":"但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到他體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力"},{"start":17425.064,"end":17446.25,"text":"而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地 選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環 譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛 距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛"},{"start":17446.75,"end":17461.315,"text":"譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔置場他們都規劃要兩階段"},{"start":17465.896,"end":17490.213,"text":"兩階段 日本在經歷阪神大地震東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段 第一階段是暫制的我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫這個災民清理出來讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制所以從第一階段的暫制場"},{"start":17491.374,"end":17515.484,"text":"然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要給你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升"},{"start":17516.264,"end":17537.925,"text":"然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃 這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫"},{"start":17539.426,"end":17563.246,"text":"或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場 第二次的佔治場然後呢 完成了土地協調 環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促 尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次 第二次的佔治場 都要跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看"},{"start":17566.699,"end":17582.556,"text":"這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程"},{"start":17584.398,"end":17610.217,"text":"那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理"},{"start":17611.798,"end":17627.354,"text":"我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套"},{"start":17628.795,"end":17649.948,"text":"要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是"},{"start":17652.99,"end":17673.525,"text":"是 委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們是覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題"},{"start":17674.286,"end":17681.614,"text":"因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼"},{"start":17692.446,"end":17695.368,"text":"所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備 災中要應變 災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎 很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統"},{"start":17717.401,"end":17737.075,"text":"你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了 可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢 要建設這些系統可是你們是 我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的可是就沒好 現在不常來看是沒好的系統"},{"start":17742.967,"end":17768.465,"text":"痛定思痛啦這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門"},{"start":17769.786,"end":17792.756,"text":"我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林淑穩委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢下一位我們請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在下一位請突謙紀委員發言"},{"start":17801.468,"end":17825.885,"text":"好 謝謝主席那請問彭部長還有賴次長好 有請彭部長 賴次長土匯文好部長 我先請問一下像我們風災過後那個廠商如果跟環境部回報說這些光電板的處理情形已經全數清理完成了那清理完成是怎麼樣叫做清理完成"},{"start":17826.565,"end":17853.162,"text":"包委員因為我們的這個我們會有我們這個管理中心南區管理中心例如這次是南區管理中心環境部管管署的然後結合地方環保局一起去查驗所以最後那一家在9月5號他的我們給他期限是9月5號完成我們9月6號有去全部案場再巡過一次那的確是沒有廢棄物所以這個部分我們是有一套程序在進行但是其實那應該叫做清運完成"},{"start":17853.362,"end":17880.572,"text":"清运完成对你清理完成应该是指清运处理完成那你单就你看我们10月8号那时候我们卫环委员也有质询针对光电板这个案子那后来晚上马上就看到经济部当天晚上8点半就发新闻稿说我们的废弃的光电板已经全数清理完成而且其实我们那天质询的时候部长"},{"start":17881.092,"end":17903.087,"text":"也還在講其實還有一萬兩千片是佔置在其他的地方那可是晚上馬上經濟部就說全數清理完成這個我覺得好像在玩文字遊戲耶一般的民眾會感覺說好像我們光電板已經清理完了然後這個業者也已經都把它分解列解處理完成我覺得好像有一點在誤導民眾耶"},{"start":17905.237,"end":17923.172,"text":"我們的清理是指的是說離開原有的案場回復它正常的環境的品質那就是清運嘛A點到B點你把它清除清運走所以我覺得說這個還是要注意一下因為我覺得有一點而且當天明明就講說還有一萬兩千片"},{"start":17924.033,"end":17950.027,"text":"都還在暫置結果晚上就發新聞稿說已經全數清理完成不知道的民眾會覺得說我們環境部經濟部動作那麼快光電板已經全部都清理好了我覺得這個還是要注意一下我覺得有點在玩文字遊戲而且當天晚上在發這個我是覺得有點在誤導民眾那這個我覺得還是要稍微注意一下那還有針對我們"},{"start":17954.205,"end":17976.454,"text":"風災後廢棄的光電板我們現在到底還有光電板還有多少沒有處理我們看一下我們這個興溫智鴻池它是業者是永新能源那據我們了解永新能源應該是雲豹的子公司那在7月15號有去巡檢過後來好像就沒有再去稽查"},{"start":17977.074,"end":18003.069,"text":"那我們看了一下 它是當時是開罰100萬然後100萬可是它的稽查的記錄是說不需要改善然後當然目前我們查結果錢也沒有繳然後後來在9月16號環境部書面回覆我們說新聞志鴻池佔自1萬片那結果我們看9月19號這個新聞"},{"start":18006.038,"end":18033.426,"text":"媒體有去現場看說也看到現場還有光電板泡在水裡而且還有很多廢棄物還埋在土裡那後來經濟部在10月7號的書面又回覆我們說暫至三萬三千片那其實我們就搞不懂一下環境部說9月16號說暫至一萬片結果經濟部又回覆我們說暫至三萬三千片然後經濟部又在10月16號新聞稿"},{"start":18035.126,"end":18064.376,"text":"又跟我们讲说7月24号已经清理完了民众不要以而传了我刚刚也有听到张吉凯委员针对这一部分也有提出质询那我不知道说这个到底环境部跟经济部这个落差真的很大虽然那时候有讲因为规格尺寸大小不一所以计算上有落差可是这1万多的落差跟4万多的落差实在是差太多了吧"},{"start":18065.911,"end":18091.23,"text":"包委 這個可能是統計時間的不同的差別就我們來說的話我們9月6號去看是完全沒有在廢棄物的部分在那個暗場有一些呢 他的完好無缺的他還擺在那個地方並沒有廢棄掉至於說可能又一個情況是說因為現場其實非常的亂特別是在9月5號之前所以他們在清的過程當中可能有一些"},{"start":18091.95,"end":18115.929,"text":"不小心埋在土裡面了所以其實有經過雨水沖刷有可能造成所以我這個禮拜會請我們同仁再去看一次再去檢查一次對啊 部長你要看一下環境部9月16號說佔值1萬片經濟部10月7號變成3萬3千片不但沒有減少還變增加所以經濟部跟環境部這到底怎麼計算的"},{"start":18117.044,"end":18133.594,"text":"跟委員說明那個是10月7號回復了但是他引用的這個統計的時間我回去再查一下再跟你說明這裡面我們確實的這個回復的這個當時的這個時間點會有一個時間差的關係我想應該原因是在這個地方"},{"start":18134.034,"end":18153.499,"text":"對啊可是前面9月多是說環境部說1萬片10月多經濟部變成3萬多片上一次質詢的時候說1萬多片兩個都1萬多片說差幾千片因為規格大小計算上可能有落差後來我們再去查你們回覆是變成3萬多片所以"},{"start":18156.4,"end":18170.921,"text":"我們真的很不了解現在這到底還有多少光電板沒有處理而且我們問現在這個戰志在哪裡環境部也說不知道經濟部也說不知道那我不知道你們怎麼稽查的"},{"start":18171.927,"end":18198.994,"text":"這個有一定的一個廢棄物存放的一個規定不過 報告委員因為這個處理是地方的環保局在處理我們是在跟環保局在協同作業那我當然你現在問我在哪裡我當然不清楚但是我知道說它有存放一個地方在某一個工業區那我們經濟部跟環境部都沒有去稽查嗎我們處理我們的這個當成廢棄物在處理那他們是關電太陽能關電的主管機關所以我們的處理的角度不大一樣"},{"start":18199.594,"end":18209.894,"text":"對啊 你不知道在哪裡佔置那你怎麼去稽查我們當然清楚啊因為我們清楚在某一個存放的地點可是你們回覆都說你們都不知道環境部也不知道 經濟部也說不知道啊"},{"start":18212.556,"end":18233.917,"text":"然後環境部還說要看新聞才知道我們在前端清運的部分有分為兩個程序第一個從水面清到旁邊的土地那現在到底站置在哪裡那現在的話應該是在我們回收廠商他的所謂的指定的這個倉庫這個地方所以你們也不知道在哪裡地方"},{"start":18234.837,"end":18259.605,"text":"所以我就很疑惑啊你都不知道那你怎麼積查到底實際數量到底誰去查的所以難怪你們落差那麼大連放在哪裡都不知道包委員有啦那個是在一個戰智場裡面那我們同仁知道但是這個東西其實我們會清楚這個來源但是不見得會對大眾說放在哪裡所以我希望了解一下啦難怪你看9月16號說剩1萬片10月7號經濟部說剩3萬多片然後兩個部會都不知道"},{"start":18264.426,"end":18293.348,"text":"放在哪里那你怎么稽查到底还有没有说明更多根本完全都没有掌握啊那你再看新庄制红池也是这个业者是源于太阳光电那个时候我也有询问说环境部登记是源于光电那经济部登记是进精深能源那我说这样子登记可以吗你们到现在也没有回复然后后来八九月去巡查稽查"},{"start":18293.908,"end":18322.31,"text":"後來說喊開罰900萬後來聽說只罰了300萬說600萬因為有改善完成所以免罰那環境部在8月21號說園域還堆置三萬五千片在岸邊後來在9月16號就說只剩兩千片結果又來了經濟部10月7號又跟我們說暫至一萬七千片本來兩千片現在經濟部又說一萬五千片"},{"start":18323.41,"end":18349.577,"text":"然後經濟部還在10月16號馬上又再發新聞稿說在7月30號已經清完民眾不要以而傳而 又來了又叫民眾不要以而傳而結果你們自己一下子2000片 一下子變15000片然後又說7月30號已經處理完叫民眾不要以而傳而然後一樣 站置地點 一樣不知道然後媒體在10月17號"},{"start":18351.448,"end":18368.94,"text":"民眾跟媒體去現場看根本現場還凌亂不堪還有很多的碎片剛剛張祺凱委員書也有提供照片說他這裡是才去造的現場還有浮桶 還有碎片還有很多的廢棄物那我們這個光電板到底處理得怎麼樣"},{"start":18370.796,"end":18393.344,"text":"我看經濟部跟環境部現在大家都搞不清楚包委員不會啦 這個其實齁因為那個是一個很大面積開放的場域所以基本上清完之後有些他在這個當時我們去看那個岸邊都是爛泥啊爛泥 所以可能有一些的確碎片或做什麼放在這個下面或是說他整個業者又回去了做什麼樣的事情 我們不清楚因為我們是在時間點 例如說9月6號去處理"},{"start":18395.665,"end":18415.722,"text":"我們也答應委員 我們這個禮拜一定請我們同仁再去巡查過一次是不是有如張祺凱委員說的這樣的一個事實如果有這個事實 我們就會開罰好 你看 先溫治紅池 你們7月15號去巡檢之後開罰100萬後來稽查記錄我們也看 說不需改善也還沒有繳清這個罰款"},{"start":18417.543,"end":18443.233,"text":"後來9月19 媒體去看現場還光電板泡在那邊喔那我問你 現在到底新聞志榮池到底處理乾淨了沒有現場已經處理乾淨了但是我剛跟委員講說他可能有一些散落到那個地方可能雜質因為水泥下雨沖刷之後跑出來的這個我這個禮拜會請同仁去觀察那我問一下 他罰100萬不需要改善為什麼不需要改善當然要改善啊可是他稽查紀錄寫不需要改善啊"},{"start":18450.456,"end":18474.436,"text":"對啊 又罰錢然後不須改善 這我真的看不懂我們是罰的是廢清法 這個是我們這個是依照這個電業的這個處理的相關規定再去做處理的那不須改善是什麼意思表示他已經改善完成 所以不須改善嗎不是 但是是依照廢清法的這個規定去裁判"},{"start":18476.095,"end":18504.232,"text":"不過委員 這個他已經繳錢了啦他有繳錢好 錢繳了那他罰100萬然後為什麼上面住民說不需改善然後後來9月19然後媒體去看光電板還泡在水裡啊然後現在問到底處理好沒有沒有 委員光電板泡在水裡這個事情要去確定是他好的光電板泡在水裡就是還在水面上還是壞掉的在水面上這個要有一個定義喔 出來的那目前的確是壞掉的都已經移出這個水面上了"},{"start":18505.332,"end":18527.913,"text":"希望環境部跟經濟部針對這戰制的希望要有一個明確的數字啊這個差好幾萬片 這說規格尺寸大小不一 這落差幾萬片也太誇張了給你的報告跟新聞之間混在一起所以造成這個數字的混淆就我的數字 我看到的數字都是有在修正 例如說原來最早是15萬片一直最後修到12.1萬片"},{"start":18528.834,"end":18544.409,"text":"那我希望這新聞志宏池跟新莊志宏池我們經濟部環境部再去現場徹底清查一下到底怎麼回事那媒體也報導10月17號也報導現場拍的照片啊那剛剛張其凱說他自己去現場拍的啊然後"},{"start":18545.39,"end":18563.873,"text":"你看新莊志宏池之前罰900萬後來說改善了600萬免罰那如果照你現在如果這個照片是真的而且我相信這媒體也去現場拍的啦那根本就沒改善啊那600萬還要不要罰好 包委員那個開罰是地方環保局在我們協助之下在開罰"},{"start":18564.594,"end":18582.439,"text":"那至於他有沒有罰什麼繳錢我們會跟環保局保持密切的聯繫在最後的確認那至於說他有沒有清完成因為委員這個是一個開放的場域誰都可以去所以我們會請同仁再去確認一下我希望部長針對這個幫我們徹底了解清楚因為我們覺得"},{"start":18583.739,"end":18603.115,"text":"這光電板這裡面牽扯的問題真的太多了而且我剛剛一直講喔上一次也問過環境部登一個同一個案場環境部登記的公司跟經紀部登記的公司居然不一樣這沒有問題嗎你們到現在也沒回覆然後說因為他改善完成所以600萬不用罰結果一報你看現場"},{"start":18606.238,"end":18627.187,"text":"浮桶 碎片 那個名稱不一樣是因為那個電業的登記申請的開發商然後後面的那個是所謂的運尾的這個廠商名稱是不一樣原因在這裡那另外一個部分我剛剛只去問一下我們的同仁他10月7號他就有去現場看不管是在水面"},{"start":18628.347,"end":18646.214,"text":"這個水面的部分還有包括在周邊原來指定的站準場的這個部分這裡面全部都已經大概都已經清除完了當然剛剛委員所說的早上那些的照片我們還要再去確認因為我們去檢查的時候確實是沒有的"},{"start":18647.148,"end":18674.797,"text":"好我覺得環境部經濟部我真的這個溝通很重要啊9月16號環境部公佈的總共1萬多片結果經濟部10月7號公佈的4萬8千多片這落差真的太大了那我覺得這個我們那時候還有講了其實地方廠商也有在講因為這光電板的規格尺寸大小不一樣造成他們要回收處理造成"},{"start":18675.777,"end":18701.281,"text":"非常非常的麻煩啦所以當然這個回收的量能絕對就會減慢它的速度所以我們講這規格尺寸真的要好好研議一下這個規格尺寸一樣到時候再回收處理才會好處理才會迅速嘛好那還有我們今天有針對我們噪音管制法修法的部分"},{"start":18702.996,"end":18725.741,"text":"那我這邊也特別說明一下因為我們真的在地方接收到很多的陳情尤其桃園標車組非常猖獗長期干擾民眾夜間的安寧很多老人家或者上班族一被吵醒根本都沒辦法睡對於他們真的是很大的困擾所以我希望"},{"start":18726.721,"end":18751.484,"text":"交通部還有環境部應該怎麼研議這個取締的問題如何降低違規改裝還有青少年無照駕駛的問題我也希望部長針對這個罰則是不是要加重罰則加強取締不然這個問題真的困擾我相信台灣很多民眾對這個飆車族噪音的問題困擾大家很久了"},{"start":18752.312,"end":18781.625,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議 這個我們就遵照大院要修法的指示我們本部願意配合辦理那這部分我也希望環境部還有交通部大家為民眾的這個夜間安寧能夠多幫忙好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝全局委員的發言謝謝部長們的回應下一位我們請楊耀文發言謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長"},{"start":18782.355,"end":18802.228,"text":"好 又請彭部長楊委員好部長好 部長我先跟你討論一下廢棄物清理法的修法問題順便先講一下就是因為各部會要來開委員會大概都會先送書面資料過來所以以後"},{"start":18804.062,"end":18831.114,"text":"口頭報告就是檢藥就好了因為胃環實在太血汗了我第一班飛機來最後一班有的時候很怕會趕不及所以那事實上就是先送書面委員大概或者辦公室大概也都看過了嘛對不對所以在這邊念太久也不大好好"},{"start":18834.977,"end":18863.378,"text":"部長我們廢棄物清理法呢就是你們現在在修正要把光電板納入應回收的廢棄物目標是在拆解光電板中可以再利用的材料然後以利循環再利用那這個方向是好的可是呢"},{"start":18866.826,"end":18881.811,"text":"有業者指出一般來講太陽能板是這樣子除了老舊或回損才會汰換以外就是因為新型的東西一直出來"},{"start":18883.072,"end":18904.788,"text":"那新型的東西它的發電效能可能更好所以有一些業者他會提前汰換要不然一般的太陽能光板的壽命大概有20年到25年他提前汰換國內現在有沒有充足的回收量能可以因應提前汰換的太陽能光板"},{"start":18905.336,"end":18931.141,"text":"好 謝謝委員那個目前有四家啦但是我們覺得未來如果多一點的話讓它的價格往下降一點點應該有機會達成更多而且現在那幾家都在北部我們希望中南部也有幾家能夠來營運做這些事情就現在有四家可是因為因為太陽光板回收的量其實沒有那麼大對 很少所以這四家就是營運上會比較"},{"start":18932.509,"end":18960.441,"text":"就是在風災之前基本上都沒什麼生意所以你覺得是足夠的我覺得目前是夠啦但是因為因為我們以前從來沒有過真的回收開始進行這個市場機制那這次呢是因為大量的風災那麼大大量的量然後進來然後就產生出有的廠商他自己也還開始正式的去營運所以有的做的OK有的"},{"start":18961.241,"end":18970.309,"text":"就是沒有辦法有這個量能所以我們其實這次是一個很好檢驗的機會那我們也希望未來能夠多幾家能夠一起來做這個事情"},{"start":18972.521,"end":18991.875,"text":"太陽光板回收的利潤是不是很低如果按照目前這次的風災來看的話利潤不高啦但是他們其實利潤高不高就看他的回收率他們有些老闆很厲害他可以做什麼樣的應用他還可以有他的價值那如果他只是一個拆解"},{"start":18992.475,"end":19017.781,"text":"那他就要去很多的這個用處的話那就基本上沒什麼利潤也就是一開始我們講的嘛就是看怎麼讓他再利用嘛有哪一些材料可以弄出來那廠商 不同的廠商技術面不同所以才會有差異現在有的有幾家是還不錯也有一些是還有一點落差我們希望能夠到達一個水準"},{"start":19017.961,"end":19040.428,"text":"因為我覺得太陽光板日後回收會是一個大問題因為這一次是風災嘛所以就像部長剛剛講的也沒有錯就是剛好讓我們有一個測試的機會不過還是要提早因應因為太陽光板既然是國家"},{"start":19043.849,"end":19059.175,"text":"重大的政策在推動所以相關的問題還是要先做好準備是 我們現在在努力這樣做還是一樣是太陽能光板就是環境部修正開發行為"},{"start":19061.817,"end":19079.783,"text":"應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準你們1月份修了嗎我們是針對山坡地還有一個敏感地區我們在今年1月的時候有公告敏感地區包括國家公園 水庫等等不包括水庫"},{"start":19082.879,"end":19097.423,"text":"對對對不包括水庫但是未來因為這次水面型的光電大家都有很重視啦所以我們的確有在研議但是也跟委員報告因為還沒有一個國家針對水面型的光電有任何環評認定的標準所以我們也在討論這個事情對"},{"start":19100.784,"end":19125.129,"text":"這個就是我要問的就是說假如說因為太陽光板台灣畢竟搞不好相對於其他國家我們是相對推動沒有那麼進度上沒有那麼快的那假如說世界各國都沒有這樣子的都沒有把它納入環境影響評估裡面"},{"start":19126.604,"end":19133.338,"text":"我們為什麼要思考這個方向或者是部長先說明一下為什麼世界各國"},{"start":19134.502,"end":19163.405,"text":"都認為不用謝謝委員因為最主要是說太陽光電它跟一般的工廠或是有污染的這個場域開發行為是不一樣的它是把太陽能轉化成能源所以它基本上是一個永續的能源所以這是要鼓勵的啦所以各個國家說真的有環評也是這幾年才認定的標準它畢竟跟工廠會直接蓋下去就一直污染會不一樣所以基本上只要能夠跟環境做更好的融合都是鼓勵的啦"},{"start":19163.945,"end":19191.503,"text":"所以我們其實在看的這個所有國際上的資料也都是如此但是我們也知道說台灣地小人稠那大家會對於環境有更多的關心那我們當然除了要澄清很多的錯誤訊息之外我們恐怕也要讓大家能夠安心希望能夠他做得更好一點點因為全世界沒有一個地方像台灣竹安出現了十幾萬片的光電板的毀損這個是我們或許我們訂這樣的一個制度是有必要的而且是符合大家的期待的"},{"start":19192.214,"end":19210.803,"text":"部長 我覺得是這樣子就是說風災造成很多太陽能管板的毀損這是一回事水庫設置太陽能管板需不需要環評這是另外一個層次的問題"},{"start":19212.103,"end":19233.936,"text":"所以我剛剛才會先提說為什麼世界各國都沒有做這樣子的要求我們卻必須要去做研議當然水庫因為我一開始的想法是不是它影響日照所以會對水質有影響"},{"start":19237.436,"end":19252.944,"text":"其實基本上科學上是沒有問題的但是我們發現台灣的民眾很擔憂然後很擔憂他影響到環境所以我們環評的功能就是讓大家有疑慮的這個地方在我們環評這個部分幫大家來做把關"},{"start":19254.414,"end":19275.711,"text":"副長我並不反對啦我不是反對我只是還是要講說民眾的擔憂有的時候是脫離科學根據的那執政者的責任就是必須要把問題釐清把資訊公開清楚的宣達"},{"start":19277.456,"end":19294.236,"text":"而不是用一個假如說不相干這個我不知道我必須要先聲明我也不是反對把它納入如果假如說全世界都沒有這樣子的例子說在水庫上"},{"start":19295.638,"end":19321.805,"text":"架設太陽光板必須要納入環境影響評估那我們要成為世界的首創這個是不是要找到一些科學的根據來說服因為有的時候就是當然環境很重要所以真的有影響的一定要納入可是假如說全球都沒有那我們要納入"},{"start":19323.405,"end":19350.484,"text":"那如果以後會產生一個問題就是環境的兼顧假如說本來就不需要那反而多了一套程序來影響行政效率這個可能部裡面要再做一下研究假如看看為什麼全世界都不需要"},{"start":19351.656,"end":19365.549,"text":"它的理由是什麼 跟台灣到底有什麼差別那不能 理由不能只是台灣有一次12.1萬片的毀損我們就把它納入 我覺得這個就是"},{"start":19374.637,"end":19398.698,"text":"不正當的連結啦好不好我贊同委員的觀點我們會來用科學數據的方法來討論有必要納入那當然環境的維護是最重要的當然還是要假如沒有必要反而弄了一套制度出來影響行政效率這個對國家沒有幫助好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":19403.518,"end":19406.06,"text":"好謝謝楊耀委員發言請陳瑩委員發言麻煩請那個部長尹鵬部長"},{"start":19432.623,"end":19446.83,"text":"陳委員好部長好這次7月的丹納斯風災造成許多這個光電板的損害那因此我想也是很好的機會讓我們來思考一下目前台灣光電板的這個回收跟現況的問題"},{"start":19449.901,"end":19470.9,"text":"我想首先就我们讨论一下这个回收费用预缴的问题这个目前的规定是不是在建置太阳能板太阳能光电厂业者必须在建置的时候缴交每千瓦一千元的这个太阳能板回收处理费分十年缴交对108年以后对好"},{"start":19471.67,"end":19500.048,"text":"那理論上這筆錢是先交由這個能源署保管那等到這個設備用滿20年之後呢真的要退役的時候政府再負責出錢請這個回收廠清運處理那問題是一旦光電廠不到20年就損壞了例如說像這一次的這個颱風損害環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的這個回收費用來處理"},{"start":19501.601,"end":19526.859,"text":"包圍沒有 這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好 所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能"},{"start":19528.289,"end":19550.203,"text":"是的 就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有 就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣"},{"start":19552.818,"end":19567.877,"text":"其实我这个简报上就是因为在这个1000元每千瓦1000元的这个设计上我们其实他当然主要原先设计是说支应回收技术研发然后辅导处理设厂"},{"start":19570.459,"end":19593.787,"text":"對 福島處理這個這個處理 對不起福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災 天災 意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮"},{"start":19595,"end":19621.689,"text":"要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限"},{"start":19622.99,"end":19636.889,"text":"這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助"},{"start":19639.311,"end":19656.177,"text":"其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的"},{"start":19657.097,"end":19680.416,"text":"那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況"},{"start":19681.957,"end":19710.236,"text":"那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗"},{"start":19711.217,"end":19721.996,"text":"為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害的"},{"start":19723.345,"end":19743.597,"text":"我舉一個苗栗這家老闆很認真他會想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說廢棄的太陽能板"},{"start":19747.839,"end":19777.121,"text":"最后再回收有价值的这些的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厉害了但是我们来看一下说它的分布问题有没有区域垄断的问题的确现在这次因为在桃园或是苗栗它从嘉义运上去那个运输的成本就很贵所以我们就一直考虑到说中南部应该一定要有才会解决这个问题以后如果还有"},{"start":19778.331,"end":19804.164,"text":"這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸"},{"start":19806.425,"end":19824.935,"text":"成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠"},{"start":19826.036,"end":19852.351,"text":"那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天"},{"start":19853.471,"end":19880.692,"text":"點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況"},{"start":19882.869,"end":19905.1,"text":"這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題"},{"start":19907.445,"end":19935.701,"text":"我不太明白你说的其他的成本还有例如像什么就是那个处理厂商他可能有两个收入一个就是我们那个循环署以后给他一个补贴的钱另外一个他就是说他会再跟那个对方收一笔钱那么这两笔钱里面我们不可能让他同时存在我们一定是取里面的比如说我们给他定额那超过的部分那他就不会再接受了我们的那个补贴"},{"start":19937.497,"end":19962.47,"text":"我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的這個回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解"},{"start":19962.89,"end":19983.702,"text":"但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的"},{"start":19986.103,"end":20010.839,"text":"投入龐大的資金如果說沒有辦法拿到這個D2528的資格等於說他們前面的投資都是白花了因此我們台灣就沒有辦法導入國外先進的這些回收技術也就沒有辦法就落實這個循環經濟這件事情我想請教部長就是說光電板明明它不是一般的廢棄物為什麼要先取得加以及廢棄物處理許可廠商"},{"start":20013.678,"end":20025.077,"text":"我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦那至於說這個如何減少它的一個負擔我們可以來想辦法"},{"start":20027.768,"end":20055.456,"text":"是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資"},{"start":20056.036,"end":20070.85,"text":"對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議"},{"start":20072.287,"end":20092.845,"text":"不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時"},{"start":20099.59,"end":20125.388,"text":"也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間"},{"start":20126.758,"end":20154.418,"text":"可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告"},{"start":20155.267,"end":20179.096,"text":"好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝陳英委員發言那蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在那本日會議詢答全部結束委員盧憲一徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":20180.709,"end":20192.322,"text":"現在做以下決定及決議第一報告說明及詢答完畢第二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機構於兩週內已書面答覆"},{"start":20196.772,"end":20210.46,"text":"委員另要求期限者從期所定第三噪音管制法部分修部分條文修正草案等9案並則期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"164455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164455","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b8bf0a94e363cfdbd720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d2bc170b242c5881665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:56:46 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這次是他們自己的損壞所以當成一般的廢棄物來做處理好 所以他們在就是說之前繳的這個費用在清運之後也不能申請退費對 這個未來可能我們現在是跟能源署有討論的一個方案那這個是不是能源署來回答就是說基本上這是兩個事情他們未來可以有一個扣抵的功能"},{"start":114.279,"end":136.193,"text":"是的 就是部長剛才講的我們那個是他要20年到除役的時候來做處理那目前災害損害的錢是由他自己負責的這個我們明白所以我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的沒有 就是目前我們回收的機制是這樣"},{"start":138.808,"end":151.858,"text":"其實我這個簡報上就是因為在這個1000元每千瓦1000元的這個設計上我們其實他當然主要原先設計是說支應回收技術研發然後輔導處理設廠"},{"start":156.448,"end":179.759,"text":"福島處理廠設立的費用這原先的設計是這樣所以其實在這1000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災天災意外這件事情的所以我想我們簡報特別就是說你們未來是不是有沒有考慮"},{"start":180.973,"end":207.682,"text":"要加入這些因素的考量做一些調整這個只是順道帶上那實際的情況這次這個受災的業者除了這個設備損失之外還要自掏腰包來處理這個報廢的光電板那他們的保險理賠的部分也往往就是非常有限"},{"start":208.983,"end":222.862,"text":"這樣子就是說讓這個災損的業者我想有些是真的血本無歸啦那換句話說政府先收了錢但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何的補助"},{"start":225.305,"end":242.163,"text":"其實我在準備這次質詢的時候我會一直想到我們台東這次市家保險農損的那個概念就是我們種市家風災有農損的補助但是種店風災的時候損害是沒有補助的"},{"start":243.084,"end":266.626,"text":"那這個就是說對業者來說當然我們有聽到一些哀嚎啦就是這個造成他們這個兩頭賠的一個情況那這個確實也是今年豐災過後業主反映的一個沉重負擔的這個主要原因之一那我想部長應該也都有理解這樣的狀況"},{"start":267.947,"end":296.201,"text":"那我們來談一下就是其實這個處理的問題請問部長目前全台有幾家擁有政府核發的這個光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商四家甲級兩家一級所以總共六家那是不是說這六家抱歉我這邊只有找到五家六家是分散在不同的縣市但主要的還是以桃園跟苗栗"},{"start":297.203,"end":308.01,"text":"為主嘛對不對那我想請教一下這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術對於處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害"},{"start":309.337,"end":328.985,"text":"對 我舉一個苗栗這家他是老闆很認真他會用想一些方法不過他的回收率是到92%有一些還是沒辦法回收那桃園那家他投資金額比較大他那個機器完全可以自動去做處理可以回收到99%所以基本上每一家的處理方式你說的回收到99%是說那個廢棄的這個"},{"start":332.106,"end":348.401,"text":"太陽能板的有價值的部分可以回收到99%那就真的很厲害了但是我們來看一下說它的分佈問題有沒有區域壟斷的問題"},{"start":350.075,"end":363.107,"text":"的確現在這次因為在桃園或是苗栗他從嘉義運上去那個運輸的成本就很貴所以我們就一直考慮到說中南部應該一定要有才會解決這個問題以後如果還有"},{"start":364.3,"end":390.151,"text":"這個南部啊東部這個運上去又更貴了那這個光電板因為颱風造成天災這個受損已經變成是一個無價廢板的時候我們政府不動用這個預收的回收資金而是要業者自行負擔清運跟回收的費用那各地的這個業者幾乎只能找就是說當地的那一家的處理廠所以剛講運輸"},{"start":392.412,"end":410.922,"text":"成本費用比較高談判的空間當然相對也就變小了那相反的當這個光電板它仍然可以運作的時候然後仍有二手或這個材料價值的時候卻被我們政府要求只能交給這特定幾家的處理廠"},{"start":412.023,"end":438.34,"text":"那這些處理廠商呢他收下仍有價值的這個板子之後呢他不但他可以變賣材料也可以轉售再利用那還可以再向政府申請這個處理的補貼每公斤大概10到16元這個等於同時可以取得就是有價資產跟回收費用那實際上他們是兩頭賺我今天"},{"start":439.461,"end":466.664,"text":"點出這個我不是要打擊他們我只是要做一個做一個比較啦一個是這個兩頭的損失一個是兩頭賺很多這樣子那我想要請教部長就是說這樣的結果變成說光電板業者他是出錢然後政府又政府也出錢那處理廠他就等於在回收獲利這樣是不是一個很合理的一個狀況"},{"start":468.859,"end":491.33,"text":"這個問題要不要回答我們請我們副署長回答是 跟那個委員報告一下我們以後的話真的有補貼的話我們是定額補貼定額補貼的意思就是說不是說你處理費譬如說一噸四萬五千塊我就補助給你四萬五千塊不是這個意思我可能就按照他的成本補助給他兩萬塊那其他的成本的話他自己去吸收這樣就不會導致就是說兩邊賺的問題"},{"start":493.434,"end":521.049,"text":"我不太明白你說的其他的成本還有例如像什麼就是那個處理廠商他可能有兩個收入嘛一個就是我們那個循環署以後給他一個補貼的錢另外一個呢他就是說他會再跟那個對方收一筆錢嘛那麼這兩筆錢裡面我們不可能讓他同時存在我們一定是取裡面的譬如說我們給他定額那超過的部分那他就不會再接受我們的那個補貼"},{"start":523.487,"end":548.46,"text":"我看你找機會好好算一下再試算一下給我們看然後那我今天也特別就點出這樣子一個狀況看來你們已經有發現到了吧有好那最後是這個專業的回收企業是就是說他們很難投入台灣這個市場因為很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的我相信你們都有了解"},{"start":548.86,"end":569.692,"text":"但是他不敢投入這塊市場是在台設廠之後呢因為必須要先投入數千萬甚至上億元的資金來建廠那建好之後呢他們還要再取得這個甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可那取得之後呢還要再申請這個D2528的光電板處理許可那對外資而言這個風險是相當高的"},{"start":572.093,"end":597.006,"text":"投入龐大的资金如果说没有办法拿到这个D2528的资格等于说他们前面的投资都是白花了因此呢我们台湾就没有办法导入国外先进的这些回收技术也就没有办法就落实这个循环经济这件事情我想请教部长就是说光电板明明它不是一般的废弃物为什么要先取得加以及废弃物处理许可厂商"},{"start":600.372,"end":611.067,"text":"我們是歡迎國際上任何更好的技術如果又可以減少環境的負荷我們都是歡迎的啦至於說如何減少它的負擔我們可以來想辦法"},{"start":613.755,"end":641.446,"text":"是現在這六家的話他的身份可能是已處或假處沒有錯跟那個委員所講的他必須取得設置許可操作許可甚至於環境影響評估那日後的話我們會去修法修法以後他就變成因回收費器物那在因回收費器物的時候我們會容許這個所謂的再利用機構那麼再利用機構在我們在行環經濟裡面我們對他的那個所謂資格限定的話在不違背相關的環保的條件下會比較做放鬆這樣子可以吸引的廠商來做一個投資"},{"start":642.006,"end":656.84,"text":"對我想這個部分你們要趕快來解套才好那光電科技它本來是一門進步很快然後未來仍會持續發展的一個產業所以本席要在這裡強烈建議"},{"start":658.277,"end":678.805,"text":"不能說把這個損壞或堪用的光電板當成是一般廢棄物來處理要把它當成是一種資源資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物我們台灣是非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收的制度也要設立專法來簡化專業光電回收業者進入的門檻的同時"},{"start":685.587,"end":711.356,"text":"也要請你們檢討這個回收基金的合理使用要從這個循環經濟的角度去提升這個台灣光電板回收技術跟效率讓這個市場讓它變得更透明價格更合理才能落實綠能的這個循環經濟那我想不知道部長對本席的建議你們環境部是不是可以來做評估然後大概多久時間"},{"start":712.768,"end":740.391,"text":"可以評估報告委員因為我們現在委員講的這個開放透明我們都非常的贊成甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來甚至台灣的業者也可以做國際的這個事情這個都是循環經濟我們希望我們要的那至於說其實我們就想到說也連結到後面未來的這個收費的財務的模型的機制所以委員是不是可以到年底之前我們跟能源署之前有一個合作的平台討論完之後有一個比較好的方案再跟委員來報告"},{"start":741.257,"end":749.129,"text":"好那大概也就兩個月時間年底年底好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝晨英委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1359,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時56分）麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。這一次7月的丹娜絲風災，造成許多光電板的損害，我想這也是很好的機會，讓我們來思考一下目前臺灣光電板回收跟現況的問題，首先，我們討論一下回收費用預繳的問題，按照目前的規定，在建置太陽能光電廠時，業者必須在建置的時候，繳交每瓩1,000元的太陽能板回收處理費，分10年繳交。"],["彭部長啓明：對，108年以後，對。"],["陳委員瑩：理論上這筆錢是先交由能源署保管，等到設備用滿20年之後，真的要退役的時候，政府再負責出錢請回收場清運處理，但問題是，一旦光電板不到20年就損壞了，例如說，像這一次的颱風損害，環境部有沒有動用到這一筆預收的回收費用來處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，沒有，這一次是他們自己的損壞，所以當成一般廢棄物來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：好。所以之前繳的費用在清運之後也不能申請退費？"],["彭部長啓明：對。我們現在跟能源署有討論一個方案，這個問題是不是能源署來回答？就是說，基本上這是兩個事情，未來可以有一個扣抵的功能。"],["李署長君禮：是的，就是部長剛剛講的，那個是要20年到，就是除役的時候來處理，目前災害損害的錢是由他們自己負責。"],["陳委員瑩：這個我們明白啊，我以為你有什麼特別要檢討的。"],["李署長君禮：目前我們回收的機制是這樣。"],["陳委員瑩：好。這個每瓩1,000元的設計，原先設計是要支應回收技術研發，然後輔導處理廠設立的費用，原先的設計是這樣，所以其實在這1,000元的規劃裡面是沒有考慮到風災、天災意外這件事情的，所以我想，你們未來有沒有考慮要加入這些因素，考量做一些調整？這個只是順道帶上。以實際的情況來看，這個受災的業者除了設備損失之外，還要自掏腰包處理報廢的光電板，但他們的保險理賠往往非常有限，讓有些災損的業者真的是血本無歸，換句話說，政府先收了錢，但業者遇到災難的時候卻拿不到任何補助。其實我在準備這次質詢的時候，會一直想到我們臺東這次釋迦保險、農損的概念，就是種釋迦的農民遇到風災有農損的補助，但是種電的業者遇到風災受到損害是沒有補助的。對業者來說，我們有聽到一些哀號，就是造成他們兩頭賠的情況，這個確實也是今年風災過後業者反映負擔沉重的主要原因之一，我想部長應該也都理解這樣的狀況。","我們來談一下處理的問題。請問部長，目前全臺有幾家擁有政府核發光電板廢棄物處理資格的廠商？"],["彭部長啓明：4家甲級，2家乙級。"],["陳委員瑩：所以總共6家嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，6家。"],["陳委員瑩：抱歉，我只有找到5家。這6家是分散在不同的縣市，但主要還是以桃園及苗栗為主，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員瑩：我想請教一下，這幾家有什麼特別的處理技術，處理這些太陽能板是非常厲害的？"],["彭部長啓明：我舉苗栗這家，老闆很認真，會想一些方法，不過他的回收率到92%，有一些還是沒辦法回收。桃園那家的投資金額比較大，那個機器完全可以自動去做處理，可以回收到99%。所以基本上，每一家的處理方式有點不一樣。"],["陳委員瑩：你說的回收到99%是指廢棄的太陽能板……"],["彭部長啓明：對，最後再回收廢棄物的比率。"],["陳委員瑩：有價值的部分可以回收到……"],["彭部長啓明：99%。"],["陳委員瑩：99%？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：那就真的很厲害了。但是我們來看一下，它的分布有沒有區域壟斷的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：的確這一次因為在桃園或苗栗從嘉義運上去，運輸的成本就很貴，所以我們一直考慮中南部一定要有，才會解決這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：對，以後如果還有南部、東部運上去又更貴了。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：光電板因為颱風造成天災而受損，已經變成無價廢板的時候，政府不動用預收的回收資金，而是要業者自行負擔清運及回收的費用，各地的業者幾乎只能找當地那家處理場，剛剛講運輸成本費用比較高，談判的空間當然相對也就變小了。相反地，當光電板仍然可以運作、仍有二手貨材料價值的時候，卻被我們政府要求只能交給特定的幾家處理場，這些處理廠商收下仍有價值的板子之後，不但可以變賣材料，也可以轉售、再利用，還可以再向政府申請處理的補貼，每公斤大概10到16元，等於同時可以取得有價資產及回收費用，實際上他們是兩頭賺。我今天點出這個，不是要打擊他們，我只是要做一個比較，一個是兩頭的損失，一個是兩頭賺很多。我想要請教部長，這樣的結果變成光電板業者出錢，政府也出錢，處理場就等於在回收獲利，這樣是不是一個很合理的狀況？"],["彭部長啓明：這個問題請副署長說明。"],["林副署長健三：跟委員報告一下，我們以後真的有補貼的話，也是定額補貼，定額補助的意思是，不是處理費譬如一噸4萬5,000塊，政府就補助4萬5,000塊，不是這個意思，而是按照它的成本補助2萬塊，其他的成本要它自己去吸收，這樣就不會導致兩邊賺的問題。"],["陳委員瑩：我不太明白你說的「其他的成本」，還有例如像什麼？"],["林副署長健三：就是處理廠商可能有兩個收入，一個是循環署以後給它補貼的錢，另外一個是它會再跟對方收一筆錢，我們不可能讓這兩筆錢同時存在，一定是取裡面譬如我們給它的定額，超過的部分，它就不會再接受我們的補貼。"],["陳委員瑩：我看你找機會好好算一下，再試算一下給我們看。"],["林副署長健三：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我今天特別點出這樣的問題，看來你們已經有發現到了。"],["彭部長啓明：有。"],["陳委員瑩：好。最後，專業的回收企業很難投入臺灣的市場，很多外資企業的回收能力是非常專業的，我相信你們都了解，但是它不敢投入這塊市場，是因為在臺設廠之後必須先投入數千萬、甚至上億元的資金來建廠，建好之後還要再取得甲級或乙級的廢棄物處理許可，取得之後還要再申請D-2528的光電板處理許可。對外資而言，這個風險是相當高的，投入龐大的資金，如果沒有辦法拿到D-2528的資格，等於他們前面的投資都是白花了，因此臺灣就沒有辦法導入國外先進的回收技術，也就沒有辦法落實循環經濟這件事情。我想請教部長，光電板明明不是一般的廢棄物，為什麼廠商要先取得甲、乙級廢棄物處理許可的資格？"],["彭部長啓明：我們歡迎國際上任何更好的技術，如果又可以減少環境的負荷，我們都是歡迎的。至於如何減少它的負擔，我們可以來想辦法。"],["林副署長健三：現在這6家的身分可能是乙級或甲級，沒有錯，就像委員所講的，它必須取得設置許可、操作許可、甚至於環境影響評估，日後我們會修法，修法以後它就變成應回收廢棄物，它成為應回收廢棄物的時候，我們會容許再利用機構……在循環經濟裡面，我們對於再利用機構的資格限定，在不違背相關環保條件下，會比較放鬆，這樣可以吸收廠商來做投資。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個部分你們要趕快解套才好。光電科技本來是一門進步很快、未來仍會持續發展的產業，所以本席要在這裡強烈建議，不能把損壞或堪用的光電板當成一般廢棄物來處理，而要當成一種資源，資源處理要有別於一般的廢棄物。我們臺灣非常需要有專業的太陽能板回收制度，在設立專法簡化專業光電回收業者進入門檻的同時，也要請你們檢討回收基金的合理使用，從循環經濟的角度提升臺灣光電板回收技術及效率，讓這個市場變得更透明、價格更合理，才能落實綠能的循環經濟。部長，不知道對本席的建議環境部可不可以做評估？大概多久時間可以評估完成？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，委員講的開放、透明，我們都非常贊成，甚至鼓勵讓國際的都可以進來，臺灣的業者也可以做國際的事情，這些都是我們希望循環經濟要的。至於連結到後面未來收費的財務模型機制，委員，是不是在年底之前，我們跟能源署之間有一個合作的平臺，討論完、有一個比較好的方案之後，再跟委員報告？"],["陳委員瑩：好，大概也就兩個月的時間。"],["彭部長啓明：對，年底。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員發言。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束。委員盧縣一、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","請環境部說明：","近期社會輿論高度爭議之高雄鳳山水庫、烏山頭水庫光電板設置問題：為什麼過程未經過環境影響評估？設置光電板是否會影響當地水質環境？如果受颱風地震災害毀損，是否也不至於造成污染？由誰負責清除善後？因鳳山水庫等地集水區已被列為重要濕地，是一級保育類動物遊隼與白尾海雕的棲息地。"],["委員徐欣瑩書面質詢：","「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理之檢討」專題報告書面質詢","緣起：鑑於近年來政府大力推動水面式（浮動式）光電板（Floating Solar）作為綠能發展的解決方案，然而，此項技術在推行過程中，卻因缺乏環境影響評估（環評）的有效把關，以及極端氣候下抗風標準與結構設計的不足，導致水質安全疑慮、水域生態衝擊、光電板受損致災等重大問題。這不僅衝擊了民眾對水域安全的信任，也暴露出現行光電政策缺乏「氣候韌性」的基礎工程。","本席要求環境部與經濟部應正視問題核心，具體檢討並提出改進方案，以重建民眾對綠能政策的信任與確保環境永續。","問題一：水面型光電板的環境風險與「環評豁免權」","水面式光電板被視為解決臺灣土地資源限制的方案。現行法規對水庫、湖泊、埤塘等水面型浮動式光電板仍不需實施環境影響評估（環評），形同擁有「環評豁免權」。儘管環境部已修正發布《開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準》，增訂了特定環境敏感區位（如國家公園、野生動物保護區等）須實施環評，但對水面型光電板的網開一面。","最新研究已指出，水面高覆蓋率可能導致溫室氣體（如甲烷、二氧化碳）排放增加及水中溶氧量大幅下降，嚴重衝擊水域生態。更關鍵的是，對於光電模組長期放置於水面中是否會釋放有毒物質，目前仍缺乏確切且強力的研究證實，像新竹縣新豐、湖口有9口灌溉蓄水池，民眾有最直接的觀感就是：池水似乎變得比較綠，使得民眾對水質安全的深層焦慮難以消除。","待改進之處","．落實光電設施長期環境風險的科學論證：政府應投入資源進行長期、獨立且具公信力的研究，以確切證實光電模組長期置於水中是否會釋放有毒物質，並對水域生態（如溶氧量下降、溫室氣體增加）的衝擊提出具體量化數據與應對措施。對於既有案場，應要求設置水質檢測裝置，並將檢測結果持續公開上網，以透明化資訊重建民眾對水質安全的信任。","．檢討水面型光電的「環評豁免權」：環境部應重新檢視《開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準》，針對水庫、湖泊、埤塘等水面型浮動式光電板，根據其設置規模、水域生態敏感度及水資源功能（如灌溉、飲用水源），研議新增或調整其環評門檻，將其納入環評機制進行環境衝擊的源頭控管。","問題二：極端氣候下的「制度失守」與光電設施的抗災韌性不足","丹娜絲颱風重創南台灣，導致光電板逾10萬片受損，其中以水上型光電板災情最為嚴重，突顯了水面型光電設施在極端氣候下的韌性不足。儘管經濟部能源署要求電業於申請施工許可時應提送有技師簽證的結構計算書，但現實是：","．缺乏具法律強制性的明確抗風標準：現行的《滯（蓄）洪池設置太陽光電審定原則》並未訂出明確的抗風標準，也缺乏法律強制性。雖然能源署表示未來將把耐風強度從14級提升至17級，但目前規範的缺失，使得業者在設計時容易因「安全係數設定過低」或「錨定數量不足」而導致問題。","．專業設計缺乏標準依據：結構技師在設計水面太陽光電系統時，因缺乏合適的「風力係數」（Cf）可供參考，可能導致風力估算產生明顯誤差，造成設計寬鬆不一。","待改進之處","．建立具法律強制性的抗風標準與錨定規範：經濟部應加速修訂《滯（蓄）洪池設置太陽光電審定原則》，新增具法律強制性的明確「抗風標準」與「錨定數量規範」，以避免業者為節省成本而降低安全係數與錨定數量。並應參照離岸風機的抗颱標準（如Class T可抵禦17級風），作為光電設施的依循標準。"],["主席：現在作以下決定及決議：一、報告、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。三、噪音管制法部分條文修正草案等九案另擇期繼續審查。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（14時10分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 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主席請一下彭部長好 又請彭部長養委員好部長好 部長我先跟你討論一下廢棄物清理法的修法問題順便先講一下就是因為各部會要來開委員會大概都會先送書面資料過來所以以後"},{"start":28.038,"end":54.893,"text":"口頭報告就是檢藥就好了因為胃環實在太血汗了我第一班飛機來最後一班有的時候很怕會趕不及所以 那事實上就是先送書面委員大概或者辦公室大概也都看過了嘛 對不對所以在這邊念太久也不大好"},{"start":58.953,"end":87.338,"text":"部長我們廢棄物清理法呢你們現在在修正要把光電板納入應回收的廢棄物目標是在拆解光電板中可以再利用的材料然後以利循環再利用那這個方向是好的可是呢"},{"start":90.802,"end":105.79,"text":"有業者指出一般來講太陽能板是這樣子除了老舊或毀損才會汰換以外就是因為新型的東西一直出來"},{"start":107.045,"end":128.75,"text":"那新型的東西它的發電效能可能更好所以有一些業者他會提前汰換要不然一般的太陽能光板的壽命大概有20年到25年提前汰換國內現在有沒有充足的回收量能可以因應提前汰換的太陽能光板"},{"start":129.812,"end":155.144,"text":"謝謝委員 那個目前有四家啦但是我們覺得未來如果多一點的話讓他的價格往下降一點點應該有機會達成更多而且現在那幾家都在北部我們希望中南部也有幾家能夠來營運做這些事情就現在有四家可是因為因為太陽光板回收的量其實沒有那麼大對 很少所以這四家就是營運上會比較"},{"start":156.505,"end":184.417,"text":"就是在風災之前基本上都沒什麼生意所以你覺得是足夠的我覺得目前是夠啦但是因為因為我們以前從來沒有過真的回收開始進行這個市場機制那這次呢是因為大量的風災那麼大大量的量然後進來然後就產生出有的廠商他自己也才開始正式的去營運所以有的做的OK有的"},{"start":185.217,"end":194.298,"text":"就是沒有辦法有這個量能所以我們其實這次是一個很好檢驗的機會那我們也希望未來能夠多幾家能夠一起來做這個事情"},{"start":196.517,"end":215.851,"text":"太陽光板回收的利潤是不是很低如果按照目前這次的風災來看的話利潤不高啦但是他們其實利潤高不高就看他的回收率他們有些老闆很厲害他可以做什麼樣的應用他還可以有他的價值那如果他只是一個拆解"},{"start":216.451,"end":241.774,"text":"那他就要去很多的這個用處的話那就基本上沒什麼利潤也就是一開始我們講的嘛就是看怎麼讓他再利用嘛有哪一些材料可以弄出來那廠商 不同的廠商技術面不同所以才會有差異現在有的有幾家是還不錯也有一些是還有一點落差我們希望能夠到達一個水準"},{"start":241.974,"end":264.406,"text":"因為我覺得太陽光板日後回收會是一個大問題因為這一次是風災嘛所以就像普朗剛剛講的也沒有錯就是剛好讓我們有一個測試的機會不過還是要提早因應因為太陽光板既然是國家"},{"start":267.828,"end":283.146,"text":"重大的政策在推動所以相關的問題還是要先做好準備我們現在在努力這樣做還是一樣是太陽能光板就是環境部修正開發行為"},{"start":285.793,"end":303.766,"text":"應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準你們1月份修了嗎我們是針對山坡地還有一個敏感地區我們在今年1月的時候有公告敏感地區包括國家公園 水庫等等不包括水庫"},{"start":306.868,"end":321.396,"text":"對對對 不包括水庫但是未來因為這次水面型的光電大家都很重視啦所以我們的確有在研議但是也跟委員報告因為還沒有一個國家針對水面型的光電有任何環評認定的標準所以我們也在討論這個事情 對"},{"start":324.757,"end":349.102,"text":"這個就是我要問的就是說假如說因為太陽光板台灣畢竟搞不好相對於其他國家我們是相對推動沒有那麼進度上沒有那麼快的那假如說世界各國都沒有這樣子的都沒有把它納入環境影響評估裡面"},{"start":350.58,"end":357.311,"text":"我們為什麼要思考這個方向或者是部長先說明一下為什麼世界各國"},{"start":358.479,"end":387.401,"text":"都認為不用對 謝謝委員因為最主要是說太陽光電它跟一般的工廠或是有污染的這個場域開發行為是不一樣的它是把太陽能轉化成能源所以它基本上是一個永續的能源所以這是要鼓勵的啦所以各個國家說真的有環評也是這幾年才認定的標準它畢竟跟工廠會直接蓋下去就一直污染會不一樣所以基本上只要能夠跟環境做更好的融合都是鼓勵的啦"},{"start":387.921,"end":415.479,"text":"所以我們其實在看的這個所有國際上的資料也都是如此但是我們也知道說台灣地小人稠那大家會對於環境有更多的關心那我們當然除了要澄清很多的錯誤訊息之外我們恐怕也要讓大家能夠安心希望能夠他做得更好一點點因為全世界沒有一個地方像台灣竹安出現了十幾萬片的光電板的毀損這個是我們或許我們訂這樣的一個制度是有必要的而且是符合大家的期待的"},{"start":416.192,"end":428.088,"text":"部長 我覺得是這樣子啦就是說風災造成很多太陽管板的毀損這是一回事水庫"},{"start":430.878,"end":457.136,"text":"設置太陽能光板需不需要環評這是另外一個層次的問題所以我剛剛才會先提說為什麼世界各國都沒有做這樣子的要求我們卻必須要去做研議當然水庫因為我一開始的想法是不是它影響日照所以會對水質有影響"},{"start":460.82,"end":476.94,"text":"其實基本上科學上是沒有問題的但是我們發現台灣的民眾很擔憂然後很擔憂他影響到環境所以我們環評的功能就是讓大家有疑慮的這個地方在我們環評這個部分幫大家來做把關"},{"start":478.39,"end":499.676,"text":"副長我並不反對啦我不是反對我只是還是要講說民眾的擔憂有的時候是脫離科學根據的那執政者的責任就是必須要把問題釐清把資訊公開清楚的宣達"},{"start":501.452,"end":518.21,"text":"而不是用一個假如說不相干這個我不知道我必須要先聲明我也不是反對把它納入如果假如說全世界都沒有這樣子的例子說在水庫上"},{"start":519.611,"end":541.307,"text":"架設太陽光板必須要納入環境影響評估那我們要成為世界的首創這個是不是要找到一些科學的根據來說服因為有的時候就是當然環境很重要所以真的有影響的一定要納入"},{"start":542.188,"end":548.934,"text":"可是假如說全球都沒有那我們要納入納入以後會產生一個問題就是"},{"start":552.592,"end":580.469,"text":"環境的兼顧假如說本來就不需要那反而多了一套程序來影響行政效率這個可能部裡面要再做一下研究假如看看為什麼全世界都不需要它的理由是什麼跟台灣到底有什麼差別那不能"},{"start":582.335,"end":589.523,"text":"理由不能只是台灣有一次5萬多12.1萬片的毀損我們就把它納入我覺得這個就是"},{"start":598.613,"end":622.674,"text":"不正當的連結啦好不好我贊同委員的觀點我們會來用科學數據的方法來討論有必要納入那當然環境的維護是最重要的當然還是要假如沒有必要反而弄了一套制度出來影響行政效率這個對國家沒有幫助好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1305,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時46分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，我先跟你討論一下廢棄物清理法的修法問題，順便先講一下，因為各部會要來開委員會，大概都會先送書面資料過來，所以以後口頭報告簡要就好，因為衛環委員會實在太血汗了，我搭第一班飛機來，要搭最後一班回去，有的時候很怕會趕不及。事實上就是先送書面，委員或辦公室的人員大概也都看過了嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：所以在這邊唸太久也不太好。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["楊委員曜：好。部長，廢棄物清理法你們現在在修正，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["楊委員曜：要把光電板納入應回收的廢棄物，目標是拆解光電板中可以再利用的材料，以利循環再利用。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["楊委員曜：這個方向是好的，可是有業者指出，一般來講，太陽能光電板除了老舊或毀損才會汰換以外，因為新型的東西一直出來，新型的東西發電效能可能更好，所以有一些業者會提前汰換，要不然一般太陽能光電板的壽命大概有20年到25年，如果提前汰換，國內現在有沒有充足的回收量能可以因應提前汰換的太陽能光電板？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。目前相關業者有四家，但是我們覺得未來如果多一點的話，讓價格往下降一點點，應該有機會達成更多，而且現在那幾家都在北部，我們希望中南部也有幾家能夠來營運，做這件事情。"],["楊委員曜：就是現在有四家，可是因為太陽光電板回收的量其實沒有那麼大……"],["彭部長啓明：對，很少。"],["楊委員曜：所以這四家營運上會……"],["彭部長啓明：就是在風災之前，基本上都沒什麼生意。"],["楊委員曜：對、對、對。所以你覺得是足夠的？"],["彭部長啓明：我覺得目前是夠啦，但是因為我們以前從來沒有真的回收，沒有開始進行這個市場機制，這一次是因為風災，有大量的廢棄光電板進來，然後才會有廠商開始正式營運，有的做得OK，有的就是沒有辦法有這個量能，所以其實這一次是一個很好的檢驗機會，我們也希望未來能夠多幾家，能夠一起來做這個事情。"],["楊委員曜：太陽能光電板回收的利潤是不是很低？"],["彭部長啓明：如果按照這一次風災的狀況來看的話，利潤不高，但是利潤高不高其實是看回收率，有些老闆很厲害，可以設法應用，產生價值。如果只是拆解，那就要去尋求很多用處，基本上沒什麼利潤。"],["楊委員曜：也就是一開始我們講的，就是看怎麼再利用。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：看有哪一些材料可以弄出來。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：不同的廠商，技術面不同，所以才會有差異。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：是不是這樣子？"],["彭部長啓明：對。現在有幾家是還不錯，也有一些是還有一點落差，我們希望能夠到達一個水準。"],["楊委員曜：因為我覺得太陽能光電板日後回收會是一個大問題，因為這一次是風災造成大量毀損，像部長剛剛講的也沒有錯，就是剛好讓我們有一個測試的機會，不過我們還是要提早因應，因為太陽能光電板既然是國家重大政策在推動，所以相關的問題還是要先做好準備。"],["彭部長啓明：是，是。我們現在在努力這樣做。"],["楊委員曜：一樣是太陽能光電板，環境部修正開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目及範圍認定標準，你們1月份修了嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是針對山坡地和敏感地區，在今年1月的時候有公告。"],["楊委員曜：敏感地區包括國家公園、水庫等等？"],["彭部長啓明：不包括水庫。"],["楊委員曜：不包括水庫啊？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["楊委員曜：不包括水庫。"],["彭部長啓明：但是因為這一次水面型的光電大家都很重視，所以我們的確有在研議，但是也跟委員報告，因為還沒有一個國家針對水面型的光電有任何環評認定的標準，所以我們也在討論這個事情。"],["楊委員曜：對。這個就是我要問的，畢竟相對於其他國家，我們推動太陽能光電板在進度上是相對沒有那麼快的，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：世界各國都沒有把它納入環境影響評估裡面，我們為什麼要思考這個方向？部長先說明一下，為什麼世界各國都認為不用？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。因為最主要是太陽光電跟一般的工廠或是有污染的場域開發行為是不一樣的，它是把太陽能轉化成能源，所以它基本上是一個永續的能源，這是要鼓勵的，所以說真的，各個國家有環評，也是這幾年才認定的標準，畢竟它跟工廠直接蓋下去就一直污染不一樣，基本上只要能夠跟環境做更好的融合，都是受到鼓勵的，我們看所有國際上的資料，也都是如此，但是我們也知道臺灣地狹人稠，大家對於環境有更多的關心，除了要澄清很多錯誤訊息之外，我們也要讓大家安心，希望能夠做得更好一點點，因為全世界沒有一個地方像臺灣突然出現了十幾萬片光電板的毀損，或許我們訂這樣的一個制度是有必要的，而且是符合大家的期待的。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我覺得是這樣子啦，風災造成很多太陽能光電板的毀損，這是一回事，在水庫設置太陽能光電板，需不需要環評，這是另外一個層次的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["楊委員曜：所以我剛剛才會先提到，為什麼世界各國都沒有這樣子的要求，我們卻必須要去研議，因為我一開始的想法是：是不是因為它影響日照，所以會對水質有影響？是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實基本上科學上是沒有問題的，但是我們發現臺灣的民眾很擔憂它影響到環境，所以我們環評的功能，就是讓大家有疑慮的地方，在我們環評這個部分，幫大家來做把關。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我並不反對，我不是反對，我只是還是要說，民眾的擔憂有的時候是脫離科學根據的，執政者的責任就是必須要把問題釐清，把資訊公開清楚地宣達，我必須先聲明，我也不是反對把它納入，假如說全世界都沒有這樣子的例子，說在水庫上架設太陽能光電板必須納入環境影響評估，那我們要成為世界的首創，這個是不是要找到一些科學的根據來說服人？當然環境很重要，所以真的有影響的，一定要納入。可是假如說全球都沒有先例，我們要納入，納入以後會產生一個問題，就是環境的兼顧假如本來就不需要，這部分納入環評，反而多了一道程序來影響行政效率，對於這一點，部裡面可能要再做一下研究，看看為什麼全世界都不需要，理由是什麼，跟臺灣到底有什麼差別。理由不能只是臺灣有一次12.1萬片太陽能光電板毀損，我們就把它納入，我覺得這個就是不正當的連結，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。我贊同委員的觀點，我們會用科學數據的方法來討論。"],["楊委員曜：對、對、對。有必要納入，當然環境的維護是最重要的，當然還是要。假如沒有必要，反而弄了一套制度出來影響行政效率，這個對國家沒有幫助。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員曜：好。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席（廖委員偉翔）：謝謝楊曜委員發言。","請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bba542221d1d7e1c4720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d28d3a92de4e1420655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"13:29:48 - 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謝謝主席那請問彭部長還有賴次長好 有請彭部長 賴次長圖偉文好部長 我先請問一下像我們風災過後那個廠商如果跟環境部回報說這些光電板的處理情形已經全數清理完成了那清理完成是怎麼樣子要做清理完成"},{"start":30.539,"end":57.155,"text":"包委員因為我們的這個我們會有我們這個管理中心南區管理中心例如這次是南區管理中心環境部管管署的然後結合地方環保局一起去查驗所以最後那一家在9月5號我們給他期限是9月5號完成我們9月6號有去全部案場再巡過一次那的確是沒有廢棄物所以這個部分我們是有一套程序在進行但是其實那應該叫做清運完成"},{"start":57.355,"end":84.429,"text":"清運完成對你清理完成應該是指清運處理完成那你單就你看我們10月8號那時候我們衛環委員也有質詢針對光電板這個案子那後來晚上馬上就看到經濟部當天晚上8點半就發新聞稿說我們的廢棄的光電板已經全數清理完成而且其實我們那天質詢的時候部長"},{"start":85.069,"end":107.223,"text":"也還在講其實還有一萬兩千片是佔置在其他的地方那可是晚上馬上經濟部就說全數清理完成這個我覺得好像在玩文字遊戲一般的民眾會感覺說好像我們光電板已經清理完了然後這個業者也已經都把它分解列解處理完成我覺得好像有一點在誤導民眾"},{"start":109.211,"end":127.169,"text":"我們的清理是指的是說離開原有的案場回復它正常的環境的品質那就是清運嘛A點到B點你把它清除清運走所以我覺得說這個還是要注意一下因為我覺得有一點而且當天明明就講說還有一萬兩千片"},{"start":128.01,"end":154.015,"text":"都還在暫置結果晚上就發新聞稿說已經全數清理完成不知道的民眾會覺得說我們環境部經濟部動作那麼快光電板已經全部都清理好了我覺得這個還是要注意一下我覺得有點在玩文字遊戲而且當天晚上在發這個我是覺得有點在誤導民眾那這個我覺得還是要稍微注意一下那還有針對我們"},{"start":158.2,"end":180.427,"text":"風災後廢棄的光電板我們現在到底還有光電板還有多少沒有處理我們看一下我們這個新婚制紅池它是業者是永新能源那據我們了解永新能源應該是雲豹的子公司那在7月15號有去巡檢過後來好像就沒有再去稽查"},{"start":181.047,"end":207.068,"text":"那我們看了一下 他是當時是開罰100萬然後100萬可是他的稽查的記錄是說不需要改善然後當然目前我們查結果錢也沒有繳然後後來在9月16號環境部書面回覆我們說新聞志鴻池佔自1萬片那結果我們看9月19號這個新聞"},{"start":210.031,"end":237.421,"text":"媒體有去現場看說也看到現場還有光電板泡在水裡而且還有很多廢棄物還埋在土裡那後來經濟部在10月7號的書面又回覆我們說暫至三萬三千片那其實我們就搞不懂一下環境部說9月16號說暫至一萬片結果經濟部又回覆我們說暫至三萬三千片然後經濟部又在10月16號新聞稿"},{"start":239.102,"end":268.369,"text":"又跟我們講說7月24號已經清理完了民眾不要以而傳而我剛剛有聽到張綺凱委員針對這部分也有提出質詢那我不知道說這個到底環境部跟新聞環境部跟經濟部這個落差真的很大雖然那時候有講因為規格尺寸大小不一所以計算上有落差可是這1萬多的落差跟4萬多的落差實在是差太多了吧"},{"start":269.887,"end":295.209,"text":"包委 這個可能是統計時間的不同的差別就我們來說的話我們9月6號去看是完全沒有在廢棄物的部分在那個暗場有一些呢 他的完好無缺的他還擺在那個地方並沒有廢棄掉至於說可能又一個情況是說因為現場其實非常的亂特別是在9月5號之前所以他們在清的過程當中可能有一些"},{"start":295.949,"end":319.902,"text":"不小心埋在土裡面了所以其實有經過雨水沖刷有可能造成所以我這個禮拜會請我們同仁再去看一次 再去檢查一次對啊 部長你要看一下環境部9月16號說佔值1萬片經濟部10月7號變成3萬3千片不但沒有減少 還變增加所以經濟部跟環境部這到底怎麼計算的"},{"start":321.038,"end":337.584,"text":"跟委員說明那個是10月7號回復了但是他引用的這個統計的時間我回去再查一下再跟你說明這裡面我們確實的這個回復的這個當時的這個時間點會有一個時間差的關係我想應該原因是在這個地方"},{"start":338.244,"end":358.324,"text":"可是前面9月多是说环境部说1万片10月多经济部变成3万多片上一次质询的时候说1万多片两个都1万多片说差几千片因为规格大小计算上可能有落差后来我们再去查你们回复是变成3万多片"},{"start":359.389,"end":374.905,"text":"所以我們真的很不了解現在這到底還有多少光電板沒有處理而且我們問現在這個戰志在哪裡環境部也說不知道經濟部也說不知道那我不知道你們怎麼稽查的"},{"start":375.906,"end":403.007,"text":"這個有一定的一個廢棄物存放的規定不過 報告委員因為這個處理是地方的環保局在處理我們是在跟環保局在協同作業那我當然你現在問我在哪裡我當然不清楚但是我知道說它有存放一個地方在某一個工業區的工廠裡面那我們經濟部跟環境部都沒有去稽查嗎我們處理我們的當成廢棄物在處理那他們是關電太陽能關電的主管機關所以我們的處理的角度不大一樣"},{"start":403.587,"end":413.684,"text":"對啊你不知道在哪裡佔置那你怎麼去稽查我們當然清楚啊因為我們清楚在某一個存放的地點可是你們回覆都說你們都不知道環境部也不知道經濟部也說不知道"},{"start":416.269,"end":437.896,"text":"然後環境部還說要看新聞才知道我們在前端清運的部分有分為兩個程序第一個從水面清到旁邊的土地那現在到底站置在哪裡那現在的話應該是在我們回收廠商他的所謂的指定的這個倉庫這個地方所以你們也不知道在哪裡地方"},{"start":438.836,"end":463.595,"text":"所以我就很疑惑啊你都不知道那你怎麼積查到底實際數量到底誰去查的所以難怪你們落差那麼大連放在哪裡都不知道包委員有啦那個是在一個戰事場裡面那我們同仁知道但是這個東西其實我們會清楚這個來源但是不見得會對大眾說放在哪裡所以我希望了解一下啦難怪你看9月16號說剩1萬片10月7號經濟部說剩3萬多片然後兩個部會都不知道"},{"start":468.419,"end":497.307,"text":"放在哪里那你怎么稽查到底还有没有说不定更多根本完全都没有掌握啊那你再看新庄制红池也是好这个业者是源于太阳光电好那个时候我也有询问说环境部登记是源于光电那经济部登记是进金生能源那我说这样子登记可以吗你们到现在也没有回复然后后来八九月去巡查稽查"},{"start":497.907,"end":526.28,"text":"後來說喊開罰900萬後來聽說只罰了300萬說600萬因為有改善完成所以免罰那環境部在8月21號說園域還堆置三萬五千片在岸邊後來在9月16號就說只剩兩千片結果又來了經濟部10月7號又跟我們說暫至一萬七千片本來兩千片現在經濟部又說一萬五千片"},{"start":527.386,"end":553.573,"text":"然後經濟部還在10月16號馬上又再發新聞稿說在7月30號已經清完民眾不要以而傳而 又來了又叫民眾不要以而傳而 結果你們自己一下子2000片 一下子變15000片然後又說7月30號已經處理完叫民眾不要以而傳而然後一樣 站置地點 一樣不知道然後媒體在10月17號"},{"start":555.441,"end":572.933,"text":"民眾跟媒體去現場看根本現場還凌亂不堪還有很多的碎片剛剛張祺凱委員書也有提供照片說他這裡是才去造的現場還有浮桶 還有碎片還有很多的廢棄物那我們這個光電板到底處理得怎麼樣"},{"start":574.773,"end":597.328,"text":"我看經濟部跟環境部現在大家都搞不清楚包委員不會啦 這個其實齁因為那個是一個很大面積開放的場域所以基本上清完之後有些他在這個當時我們去看那個岸邊都是爛泥啊爛泥 所以可能有一些的確碎片或做什麼放在這個下面或是說他整個業者又回去了做什麼樣的事情 我們不清楚因為我們是在時間點 例如說9月6號去處理"},{"start":599.649,"end":619.714,"text":"我們也答應委員 我們這個禮拜一定請我們同仁再去巡查過一次是不是有如張祺凱委員說的這樣的一個事實如果有這個事實 我們就會開罰好 你看 先溫治紅池 你們7月15號去巡檢之後開罰100萬後來稽查記錄我們也看 說不需改善也還沒有繳清這個罰款"},{"start":621.834,"end":647.22,"text":"後來9月19 媒體去看現場還光電板泡在那邊喔那我問你 現在到底新聞自動詞到底處理乾淨了沒有現場已經處理乾淨了但是我剛跟委員講說他可能有一些散落到那個地方可能雜質 因為水泥下雨沖刷之後跑出來的這個我這個禮拜會請同仁去觀察那我問一下 他罰100萬不需要改善為什麼不需要改善當然要改善啊可是他稽查紀錄寫不需要改善啊"},{"start":654.429,"end":678.409,"text":"對啊 又罰錢然後不須改善 這我真的看不懂我們是罰的是廢清法 這個是我們這個是依照這個電業的這個處理的相關規定再去做處理的那不須改善是什麼意思表示他已經改善完成 所以不須改善嗎不是 但是是依照廢清法的這個規定去裁判"},{"start":680.089,"end":708.205,"text":"不過委員 這個他已經繳錢了啦 他有繳錢好 錢繳了 那他罰100萬 然後為什麼上面註明說不需改善然後後來9月19 然後媒體去看光電板還泡在水裡啊然後現在問到底處理好沒有 你們也說要再去現場看光電板泡在水裡 這個事情要去確定是他好的光電板泡在水裡 就是還在水面上還是壞掉的在水面上 這個要有一個定義喔 出來的那目前的確是壞掉的都已經移出這個水面上了"},{"start":709.345,"end":731.903,"text":"希望環境部跟經濟部針對這戰制的希望要有一個明確的數字啊這個差好幾萬片說規格尺寸大小不一這落差幾萬片也太誇張了給你的報告跟新聞之間混在一起所以造成這個數字的混淆就我的數字我看到的數字都是有在修正例如說原來最早是15萬片一直最後修到12.1萬片"},{"start":732.824,"end":748.403,"text":"那我希望這新聞志宏池跟新莊志宏池我們經濟部環境部再去現場徹底清查一下到底怎麼回事那媒體也報導10月17號也報導現場拍的照片啊那剛剛張綺凱說他自己去現場拍的啊然後"},{"start":749.384,"end":767.84,"text":"你看新莊志鴻池之前罰九百萬後來說改善了六百萬免罰那如果照你現在如果這個照片是真的而且我相信這媒體也去現場拍的啦那根本就沒改善啊那六百萬還要不要罰那個開罰是地方環保局在我們協助之下在開罰"},{"start":768.581,"end":786.491,"text":"那至於他有沒有罰什麼繳錢我們會跟環保局保持密切的聯繫在最後的確認那至於說他有沒有清完成因為委員這個是一個開放的場域誰都可以去所以我們會請同仁再去確認一下我希望部長針對這個幫我們徹底了解清楚因為我們覺得"},{"start":787.732,"end":807.051,"text":"這光電板這裡面牽扯的問題真的太多了而且我剛剛一直講喔上一次也問過環境部登一個同一個案場環境部登記的公司跟經紀部登記的公司居然不一樣這沒有問題嗎你們到現在也沒回覆然後說因為他改善完成所以600萬不用罰結果一報你看現場"},{"start":810.214,"end":831.176,"text":"浮桶 碎片 那個名稱不一樣是因為那個電業的登記申請的開發商然後後面的那個是所謂的運尾的這個廠商名稱是不一樣原因在這裡那另外一個部分我剛剛只去問一下我們的同仁他10月7號他就有去現場看不管是在水面"},{"start":832.337,"end":846.404,"text":"這個水面的部分還有包括在周邊原來指定的站準場的這個部分這裡面全部都已經大概都已經清除完了當然剛剛委員所說的早上那些的照片我們還要再去確認因為"},{"start":847.925,"end":864.248,"text":"我們去檢查的時候確實是沒有的好 我覺得環境部 經濟部真的這個溝通很重要9月16號環境部公布的總共1萬多片結果經濟部10月7號公布的4萬8千多片"},{"start":865.109,"end":893.541,"text":"這落差真的太大了那我覺得這個我們那時候還有講其實地方廠商也有在講因為這光電板的規格尺寸大小不一樣造成他們要回收處理造成非常非常的麻煩所以當然這個回收的量能絕對就會減慢它的速度所以我們講這規格尺寸真的要好好研議一下這個規格尺寸一樣到時候再回收處理"},{"start":894.281,"end":905.254,"text":"才會好處理才會迅速嘛好那還有我們今天有針對我們噪音管制法修法的部分"},{"start":906.989,"end":929.735,"text":"那我這邊也特別說明一下因為我們真的在地方接收到很多的陳情尤其桃園標車族非常猖獗長期干擾民眾夜間的安寧很多老人家或者上班族一被吵醒根本都沒辦法睡對於他們真的是很大的困擾所以我希望"},{"start":930.715,"end":955.494,"text":"交通部還有環境部應該怎麼研議這個取締的問題如何降低違規改裝還有青少年無照駕駛的問題我也希望部長針對這個罰則是不是要加重罰則加強取締不然這個問題真的困擾我相信台灣很多民眾對這個飆車族噪音的問題困擾大家很久了"},{"start":956.305,"end":972.852,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議這個我們就遵照大院要修法的指示我們本部願意配合辦理那這部分我也希望環境部還有交通部大家為民眾的這個夜間安眠能夠多幫忙好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝圖全紀委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1246,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（13時29分）謝謝主席，請彭部長還有賴次長。"],["主席：請彭部長、賴次長。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，我先請問一下，風災過後，如果廠商向環境部回報這些光電板的處理情形為已經全數清理完成，那什麼叫作「清理完成」？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們會由管理中心，例如這次是南區管理中心，隸屬環境部環管署，結合地方環保局一起查驗。對於最後那一家，我們給他的期限是在9月5日完成，我們9月6日已到全部案場巡過一次，的確沒有廢棄物。所以這部分我們有一套程序在進行。"],["涂委員權吉：但那其實應該叫清運完成。"],["彭部長啓明：對，清運完成。"],["涂委員權吉：清理完成應該是指清運、處理完成。10月8日衛環委員會也針對光電板這個案子質詢，當天晚上八點半馬上看到經濟部發新聞稿，指稱廢棄光電板已經全數清理完成。我們當天質詢的時候，部長還講其實還有1萬2,000片暫置在其他地方，可是經濟部馬上在晚上說全數清理完成，我覺得好像在玩文字遊戲。一般民眾會感覺光電板好像已經清運完了，業者也已經將其分解、裂解處理完成，我覺得好像有點誤導民眾。"],["彭部長啓明：我們的清理指的是離開原有案場，回復正常環境品質，所以叫清理。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！那就是清運嘛！也就是從A點到B點，把它清除、清運走，所以還是要注意一下啦！當天明明講還有1萬2,000片暫置，晚上就發新聞稿說已經全數清理完成，不知道的民眾會覺得「哇！環境部、經濟部動作那麼快，光電板已經全部清理好了！」這點還是要注意一下，我覺得有點算是玩文字遊戲，而且當天晚上發這個訊息，有點誤導民眾，還是要稍微注意一下。","還有，風災後廢棄光電板現在到底還有多少沒有處理？我們看一下，新塭滯洪池業者是永鑫能源，而據我們了解，永鑫能源應該是雲豹的子公司，環境部7月15日巡檢過，後來好像就沒有再稽查。我們看了一下，當時開罰100萬元，可是稽查紀錄是不需要改善。當然，根據我們的查詢結果，錢也沒有繳。9月16日，環境部以書面回復我們，新塭滯洪池暫置1萬片，結果9月19日新聞媒體到現場看，也看到仍有光電板泡在水裡，而且還有很多廢棄物埋在土裡。後來，經濟部在10月7日又以書面回復我們，暫置3萬3,000片。那我就搞不懂，一下子是環境部9月16日說暫置1萬片，經濟部又回復我們暫置3萬3,000片。接著經濟部又在10月16日新聞稿裡講7月24日已經清理完了，民眾不要以訛傳訛，我剛剛也聽到張啓楷委員針對這部分提出質詢。環境部跟經濟部的說法落差真的很大，雖然那時候講過，因為規格、尺寸大小不一，所以計算上有落差，可是一萬多片跟四萬多片的落差實在太多了吧！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這可能是統計時間不同造成的差別，就我們來說的話，我們9月6日去看是完全沒有廢棄物在案場，有一些完好無缺的擺在那個地方，並沒有廢棄掉。也可能有一種情況，由於現場其實非常地亂，特別是在9月5日之前，所以在他們清理的過程當中可能有一些不小心埋在土裡面，經過雨水沖刷造成的。我這個禮拜會請同仁再去看一次、再檢查一次。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！部長，你要看一下，環境部9月16日說暫置1萬片，經濟部的訊息10月7日變成3萬3,000片，不但沒有減少，還增加啊！經濟部跟環境部到底是怎麼計算的？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，那是10月7日回復的，至於引用的統計時間，容我回去查一下再向你說明。我們回復的時間點確實會有時間差，我想原因應該在這個地方。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！可是先前在九月多環境部說1萬片，十月多經濟部的數據變成三萬多片；上一次質詢時，你們說一萬多片，而且兩個單位都說一萬多片，相差幾千片，因為涉及規格大小，計算上可能有落差，後來我們再查，你們的回復就變成三萬多片，所以我們真的很不了解現在到底還有多少光電板沒處理。而且我們問現在暫置在哪裡，環境部說不知道，經濟部也說不知道，不知道你們是怎麼稽查的。"],["彭部長啓明：我們有一定的廢棄物存放規定，不過處理上是由地方環保局處理，我們跟環保局協同作業。你現在問我在哪裡，我當然不清楚，但是我知道存放在一個地方，是某一個工業區的某家工廠。"],["涂委員權吉：那經濟部跟環境部都沒有去稽查嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們當時在處理廢棄物，他們則是太陽能光電的主管機關，所以我們的處理角度不大一樣。"],["涂委員權吉：你不知道暫置在哪裡，那怎麼稽查？"],["彭部長啓明：我們當然清楚啊！因為我們清楚存放在某一個地點。"],["涂委員權吉：可是你們的回復都說不知道，環境部不知道，經濟部也說不知道啊！"],["彭部長啓明：應該知道啦！"],["涂委員權吉：環境部還說看新聞才知道。"],["賴次長建信：前端清運分為兩個程序，第一是從水面清到旁邊的土地，作為臨時的暫置場。"],["涂委員權吉：那現在到底暫置在哪裡？"],["賴次長建信：現在應該是在回收廠商指定倉庫這個地方。"],["涂委員權吉：所以你們也不知道在哪裡？我覺得很疑惑，既然你都不知道，那怎麼稽查？實際數量到底是誰查的？難怪你們的說法落差那麼大啊！連放在哪裡都不知道。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，有啦！是在一個暫置場裡，我們的同仁知道。我們清楚來源，但不見得會對大眾說放在哪裡。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望了解一下啦！難怪9月16日你們說剩1萬片，10月7日經濟部卻說剩三萬多片；然後，兩個部會都不知道放在哪裡，那怎麼稽查？到底還有沒有？說不定更多，根本完全沒有掌握啊！","你再看看，新庄滯洪池也是，業者是元昱太陽光電。當時我曾詢問，環境部登記的是元昱光電，而經濟部登記的是進金生能源，所以我問這樣登記可以嗎？你們到現在也沒有回復。八、九月去巡查、稽查，喊開罰900萬元，但後來聽說只罰了300萬元，另外600萬元因為改善完成所以免罰。環境部在8月21日說元昱還堆置3萬5,000片在岸邊，9月16日說只剩2,000片，結果又來了，經濟部10月7日又跟我們說暫置1萬7,000片，本來2,000片，經濟部說1萬5,000片。經濟部又馬上在10月16日再發新聞稿，稱7月30日已經清完，民眾不要以訛傳訛，又來了！又叫民眾不要以訛傳訛，結果你們自己一下子說2,000片，一下子說1萬5,000片，又說7月30日已經處理完，叫民眾不要以訛傳訛，但暫置地點一樣不知道。在10月17日，民眾跟媒體去現場看，現場根本凌亂不堪、還有很多碎片，剛剛張啓楷委員是不是也提供了照片，說是他才剛去照的？現場還有浮筒、還有碎片，還有很多廢棄物，那光電板到底處理得怎麼樣？我看包括經濟部跟環境部，大家都搞不清楚。"],["彭部長啓明：不會啦！由於那是一片很大面積的開放場域，清完當時我們去看，岸邊都是爛泥啦！所以的確可能有一些碎片等被放在下面，或是業者又回去了，只是做什麼樣的事情我們不清楚，因為我們是在某個時間點，例如9月6日去處理。我也答應委員，這個禮拜一定請同仁再去巡查一次，是不是有如張啓楷委員說的這樣一個事實，如果有這個事實，我們就會開罰。"],["涂委員權吉：好，你看新塭滯洪池，你們7月15日去巡檢之後，開罰100萬元，後來稽查紀錄也說不需改善，也還沒有繳清罰款，後來9月19日媒體去看，現場光電板還泡在那邊，那我問你，現在新塭滯洪池到底處理乾淨了沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：現場已經處理乾淨了，但是我剛剛跟委員說，有一些可能是雜質的東西散落在那個地方，因為下雨沖刷之後，袒露出來，我這個禮拜會請同仁去觀察。"],["涂委員權吉：那我問一下，罰100萬元，不需要改善，為什麼不需要改善？"],["彭部長啓明：當然要改善啊。"],["涂委員權吉：可是稽查紀錄寫不需改善啊。要罰錢，然後不需改善，這我真的看不懂。"],["彭部長啓明：我們罰的是廢清法。"],["賴次長建信：我們是依照電業的相關規定去處理。"],["涂委員權吉：那「不需改善」是什麼意思？表示已經改善完成，所以不需改善嗎？"],["賴次長建信：不是，這是依照廢清法的規定去裁罰的。"],["彭部長啓明：不過委員，這個已經繳錢了啦。有繳錢。"],["涂委員權吉：好，錢繳了，罰100萬元，為什麼上面註明「不需改善」？然後後來9月19日媒體去看，光電板也泡在水裡啊，然後現在問到底處理好沒有，你們也說要再去現場看。"],["彭部長啓明：光電板泡在水裡這個事情要去確定是好的光電板泡在水裡，就是還在水面上，還是壞掉的在水面上，這要有一個定義出來，目前的確是壞掉的都已經移出水面上了。"],["涂委員權吉：好，希望環境部跟經濟部針對這些暫置的光電板，要有一個明確的數字，兩邊的數字差好幾萬片，說規格、尺寸、大小不一致，落差幾萬片也太誇張了！"],["彭部長啓明：這可能是給你的報告跟新聞混在一起，所以造成數字的混淆，就我看到的數字都是有在修正，例如說，原來最早是15萬片，一直修，最後修到12.1萬片。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望經濟部、環境部去新塭滯洪池和新庄滯洪池現場澈底清查一下到底怎麼回事。媒體10月17日報導，在現場拍了照片，剛剛張啓楷也說他自己去現場拍了照片，然後你看新庄滯洪池，之前罰900萬元，後來說改善了，600萬元免罰，如果這個照片是真的，而且我相信這是媒體去現場拍的，那根本就沒有改善，那600萬元還要不要罰？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，開罰是地方環保局在我們的協助之下開罰，至於有沒有罰，怎麼繳錢，我們會跟環保局保持密切的聯繫，再做最後的確認。至於有沒有清完成，委員，因為這是一個開放的場域，誰都可以去，所以我們會請同仁再去確認一下。"],["涂委員權吉：我希望部長針對這個幫我們澈底瞭解清楚，因為我們覺得光電板牽扯的問題真的太多了，而且我剛剛一直講，上一次也問過，同一個案場，環境部登記的公司跟經濟部登記的公司居然不一樣，這沒有問題嗎？你們到現在也沒回復。然後說因為改善完成，所以600萬元不用罰，結果新聞一報，你看現場浮筒、碎片、廢棄物一大堆，這樣叫改善完成？"],["彭部長啓明：那個名稱不一樣，前面的是電業登記申請的開發商，後面的是運維的廠商，名稱是不一樣的，原因在這裡。","另外一個部分，我剛剛仔細問一下我們的同仁，他10月7日就有去現場看，不只是在水面的部分，還有包括在周邊原來指定的暫存場的部分，大概都已經清除完了。當然剛剛委員所說的早上那些照片，我們還要再去確認，因為我們去檢查的時候確實是沒有的。"],["涂委員權吉：好。我覺得環境部、經濟部溝通很重要，9月16日環境部公布的總共一萬多片，結果經濟部10月7日公布的是四萬八千多片，這落差真的太大了。我們那時候也有講，其實地方廠商也有在講，因為光電板的規格、尺寸、大小不一，造成他們要回收處理非常、非常的麻煩，當然回收的量能絕對會減慢它的速度，所以我們講，這個規格尺寸真的要好好研議一下，規格尺寸一樣，到時候再回收處理，才會好處理，才會迅速。","還有我們今天有針對噪音管制法修法進行討論，我這邊也特別說明一下，因為我們真的在地方接到很多陳情，尤其桃園飆車族非常猖獗，長期干擾民眾夜間的安寧，很多老人家或者上班族一被吵醒，根本都沒辦法睡，對於他們真的是很大的困擾，所以我希望交通部和環境部研議取締的問題，如何降低違規改裝和青少年無照駕駛的問題，我也希望部長針對罰則，研議是不是要加重罰則，加強取締，不然這個問題真的很讓人困擾，我相信臺灣很多民眾對飆車族噪音的問題深感困擾，這個問題困擾大家很久了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的建議，這個我們就遵照大院要修法的指示，本部願意配合辦理。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對這部分，我也希望環境部和交通部為民眾的夜間安寧，能夠多幫忙。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂權吉委員的發言。謝謝部長們的回應。","下一位我們請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164452","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164452","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bb1dd78fcc13982e2720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d244fa94be23543b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"13:10:29 - 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積蓄量能有多少例如說我們就會準備全台灣的各環保局的量能大概一萬五千台各式各樣的一個積蓄然後誰可以有空你們在災前就統計了嗎"},{"start":194.328,"end":211.403,"text":"對 災前就統計了不過我也跟委員報告因為委員上次質詢我的時候我的確有思考到這個問題而且我們後來也有再去關乎 再去看委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫你們是112年到113年災害準備和應變還有復原支援系統計畫的建制你們要建制這一套系統"},{"start":221.872,"end":235.144,"text":"那你們有兩個這個系統一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統叫EMIS一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統DEDS"},{"start":237.527,"end":253.059,"text":"那你們是希望透過這個資訊科技強化台灣在環境災害發生時事前的準備那這個災害中的應變還有這個災後的這個復原能力所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢"},{"start":254.342,"end":282.378,"text":"錢我不知道但是我有用過那個EMIC那你們多少錢 花多少錢我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料你們花多少錢不知道你們要這樣子 我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦或者是說講得很好聽啦你們要我們給你們錢你們要建置一套資訊系統然後這套系統多厲害要透過這個建立一個中央化的數據資料庫要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料解決"},{"start":283.439,"end":296.806,"text":"系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊包括這個可能中央氣象署包括衛福部包括內政部包括你們環境部自己的你們號稱是這樣子然後依據你們的報告你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中而且你們還要用視覺化的方式去呈現你們目的是要為決策者提供一個清新"},{"start":311.954,"end":334.906,"text":"即時的權益圖像而且你們還告訴我們說系統要依據使用者的職權劃分了不同的角色從中央的系統管理員然後到環境部司署的應變角色到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關各自擁有不同的資料填報查詢和審核的權限而且你們企圖要讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理"},{"start":341.229,"end":355.999,"text":"架構但是我要問你部長這個系統這些建制這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的災前準備災中降低危害災後發揮救災能量嗎有嗎"},{"start":357.14,"end":372.721,"text":"報告委員 災前是有的但是災中因為我有參與實際上的過程我也跟委員坦承說在那麼壓力高壓的急救當中似乎我是沒有看到那災前你們到底是做了哪一些準備你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷"},{"start":374.403,"end":392.819,"text":"因為我們都知道系統在作為一個數據收集的記錄系統或許表現出色但是這個收集完以後你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上那能力到底有沒有辦法使用這個就是一個考驗喔對啊那你們你們知道"},{"start":393.8,"end":407.448,"text":"整個系統的建設就是要確切的能夠真正的事前準備能力是要能夠具備風險預測需求推估比如說颱風來臨以前系統應該結合氣象署的定量的降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢投資"},{"start":411.83,"end":417.82,"text":"自動推估出哪些鄉鎮出現大規模的淹水進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量以馬太安為例你們應該早就都預測到因為我們也掌握了 也叫地方要撤離了嘛"},{"start":426.974,"end":449.569,"text":"所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具然後如果你們的系統到底能不能做到這個"},{"start":450.956,"end":461.006,"text":"有沒有做到這樣子不一定有沒有你說你們建制的系統已經發揮作用有一些功能那你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎"},{"start":463.048,"end":486.333,"text":"我們建設系統主要是建設我們全國22縣市環保單位的基本的積聚需求那他們建設的積聚之後我們每次台風災害來臨的時候我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變資訊我們就立即通知你都不知道大概會有多少的廢棄物數量那你怎麼會知道有多少的積聚的需求我再講一下就是說"},{"start":487.293,"end":504.987,"text":"系統你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構的當中換句話說這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作的平台而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統"},{"start":505.948,"end":527.027,"text":"可是我們知道真實的複合式的災害它其實一定是要橫向協作而且是要跨部門去的所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的而你們現在給它跨部會的這個橫向整合是零的而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用"},{"start":527.808,"end":531.513,"text":"而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足以0403花蓮的地震為例你們的報告裡面指出你們的溝通方式是環境部人員"},{"start":544.691,"end":562.792,"text":"手動推波LINE群組提醒地方政府要進行災情通報在真實危機的壓力下地方應變人員仍然依賴一個外部的不是你們系統的沒有整合的通訊軟體LINE來做基本的指令的傳達"},{"start":564.153,"end":590.999,"text":"我的意思是說災前整備不是你們去收集數據然後問地方政府你們到底有多少機具這樣就好了不是我們是要風險預測你要達到風險預測你告訴我你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎然後有需求推估進而去擬定一個應變的計畫的這個事前的整備的作用嗎蛤"},{"start":593.277,"end":608.736,"text":"我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊心那些對嘛 所以我問你花多少錢你們講的這麼好聽 AMIS 滴滴斯OK 你們的兩個系統或許是這樣子念吧 我是簡稱啦"},{"start":610.097,"end":619.001,"text":"那以一個國家災害的整備的成熟度往往體現在於你災後各種複雜問題的預先規劃的深度那我們從災後來看我們才認為說你們是不行的那台灣你們的MES系統啊DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐也賣場的營運數據納入監測而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊但是你們都停留在"},{"start":636.89,"end":655.788,"text":"我的處理量能、我的分化爐、我的垃圾也埋藏處理量能的追蹤可是人家日本的準備模式已經深入到對整個處理流程的標準化的管理展現了更高層次的運作準備我今天特別要跟部長分享就是我上次跟你講了災害廢棄物的處理計畫災害廢棄物的對策指針"},{"start":662.454,"end":667.818,"text":"這個是日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物的對策指針他們的處理流程先談他們的對策指針不是只有政策綱領而是一本可以操作的行動手冊"},{"start":679.285,"end":690.575,"text":"非常明確的在規範了地方政府在災害應對的各個階段所需要的具體措施平時整備的階段 災害應急的階段還有復舊 復原 復興的階段那災害應急的階段 他們還規範了說臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準"},{"start":701.344,"end":727.862,"text":"要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類如何確保勞動安全那針對不同的廢棄物你的環境保護的對策是什麼比如說防止粉塵易散 你要定期灑水設置防飛的散網那你處理實棉建材需要用帆布覆蓋而且要存放在柔性的集裝袋裡面那你處理油瓶你要在地面鋪設防滲透層"},{"start":730.544,"end":751.694,"text":"所以這種狀況裡面我們當然日本的這個指針對策指針他還定義了什麼叫做災害廢棄物的範疇那透過比較你可以發現台灣的系統著重於監控廢棄物處理設施的這個剩餘容積他也買場的儲坑量這是一種靜態的這個資源盤點的思維"},{"start":757.637,"end":786.346,"text":"但日本呢他們的指引著重在管理從產生廢棄物分類 暫存到最終處理的整個流程這是一個動態的運作的管理思維所以這種從資源盤點到流程管理的深化我們看到它體現了日本多次大規模的這個災害以後將慘痛的教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟的治理能力"},{"start":787.046,"end":808.212,"text":"而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下倉促的台塘市地 選址都沒有真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通這種事後才去找土地佔自償一定會導致很多惡性的循環 譬如說引發民怨惡臭嘛 距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛"},{"start":808.712,"end":823.278,"text":"譬如說設施簡陋你們連地面鋪設不透水布然後建制完成了滲出水的收集系統通通都沒有因為臨時的嘛而日本他們已經演化到即便他們把這個佔治場他們都規劃要兩階段"},{"start":827.859,"end":848.73,"text":"兩階段 日本在經歷阪神大地震 東日本的大震災以後他們兩階段 第一階段是暫制的 我們知道第一次暫制是臨時的趕快幫災民清理出來 讓他們可以生活為第一要務可是第一階段是過度 但他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫制"},{"start":849.79,"end":866.624,"text":"所以從第一階段的佔治場然後到這個第二階段要專業化和諮詢循環然後最終處理第一階段可能講求的是效率可能是減壓加速恢復災區的環境可是第二階段就不一樣了"},{"start":867.484,"end":890.712,"text":"所以人家這樣的系統優越你看一下我要跟你看是說他們要分流減壓避免所有的複雜作業都集中在災區周邊他們效率要提升然後二次戰這場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率第三個他們前瞻規劃這些都一定是在災前因為早就預測了"},{"start":892.353,"end":907.326,"text":"他們因為早就在災前準備就預測可能的問題了所以地方政府早就在地域的防災計畫或者是災害的廢棄物處理計畫就已經完成了第一次的佔治場第二次的佔治場"},{"start":908.487,"end":925.287,"text":"然後呢 完成了土地協調 環評和居民溝通避免了災後倉促尋地的困境所以包括在災前你的計畫裡面早就擬定了所以你第一次第二次的戰事場都跟社區居民溝通都溝通過了你看"},{"start":928.661,"end":944.508,"text":"這個是他們初期行動階段要做什麼緊急應對的前半階段後半階段還有復原復興階段你看你要從產生量垃圾的產生廢棄物的產生量執行計畫處理方針處理流程處理時程"},{"start":946.349,"end":972.179,"text":"那在收集廢棄物搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼然後呢搬去哪裡佔置場怎麼處理二次災害防止怎麼處理有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理你要二次佔置場之後你要怎麼推估這些可能的處理量然後要破碎選篩分等等到最後要最終處理"},{"start":973.76,"end":989.316,"text":"我的意思是說台灣真的離他人家日本這個模式很遠很遠所以我要問部長就是說我們對災害廢棄物的戰制完全是應急式的規劃沒有事前的準備那我們是不是應該要規劃一套"},{"start":990.757,"end":1011.91,"text":"要求地方政府必須在他的地區災害防救計畫中還有相關的這個平時演練中預先的規劃指定完成相關準備和溝通確保真正萬一發生的時候能夠立即啟動而不是一而再再而三我們總是在臨時報佛腳是不是"},{"start":1014.972,"end":1035.488,"text":"是 委員謝謝委員其實上次的質詢裡面我自己就開始跟我同仁討論說我們要如何委員提的這個日本的建議我們就覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的那特別是說很急救張的時候包含地方的環保局它的量能都出現問題然後大家都很急的去解決後面就造成更多的一個問題"},{"start":1036.249,"end":1043.576,"text":"因為你沒有政策指導啊你沒有在災害的那個概念裡面有一個災害廢棄物的概念如果環境部連災害廢棄物處理的計畫它的對策在防災裡面通通都沒有這個概念你不會要求地方政府做什麼而地方政府也來不及做什麼"},{"start":1054.406,"end":1057.328,"text":"所以在這裡你們在講說你們的災前要準備 災中要應變 災後要重建要復原可是災前準備你們號稱的這些系統災情預警應變決策和支援系統這名字有好聽嗎 很好聽你們的環境災害管理資訊系統"},{"start":1079.363,"end":1099.04,"text":"你們說希望透過這些系統可以達到災前的準備應變和復原能力三個名詞都講對了 可是都沒有作用因為真的不是那麼一回事所以你們要人家給你們錢要建置這些系統可是你們是 我不曉得是不是是從哪裡學來的 可是就沒好現在目前來看是沒好的系統"},{"start":1104.929,"end":1130.431,"text":"痛定思痛啦 這個委員我們會來檢討改進虛心受教那這個部分也是我們的確會跟同仁我們現在是準備要來好好研究探討當中啦那當然因為我們很多同仁大部分同仁都還在花蓮哈山之石啦 大部分的人在那裡但是那裡也是某一個業務單位啦但是你們的核心的部門通通在台北在正常工作大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門"},{"start":1131.732,"end":1148.262,"text":"我們會來檢討應該要好好的面對正視一下不要再這樣子日本已經有一個經驗可以學習這個是很容易可以學習的沒錯好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林書文委員的發言謝謝部長的回詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（13時10分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，辛苦了！但是我還是要談一下我國災害廢棄物處理流程，討論這個概念，因為也是一個機會嘛！我們看到在極端氣候之下，各種災害頻繁和極端化，都從單一災害變成複合式災害，影響的程度非常嚴重。","根據世界銀行出版的「天然災害熱點：全球風險分析」報告，它指出臺灣大概有73%的人口居住在有三種以上災害可能衝擊的地區。第二個，遭受到兩種以上災害衝擊的國土地區，臺灣高達90%以上的國土地區都是兩種以上災害的可能性，所以對臺灣的國土而言，對臺灣的人口居住地區而言，臺灣要承擔的災害風險是相當相當大的。你知道世界銀行出版的「天然災害熱點：全球風險分析」，這一段話是出自於哪裡嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：全球UNDRR，就是聯合國一個災害的機構。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！出自於你們環境部自己的委外研究計畫，你們的委外研究計畫是「112年至113年災害整備及應變與復原支援系統計畫」，這是你們自己的計畫。你們是希望透過這個計畫中的系統建置，要達到災前對人員和設備進行有效的整備作業；災中要運用環境災害管理資訊系統的通報和支援作業，將天災對人民的財產和人身安全的危害降到最低；災後你們要運用環境災害管理資訊系統進行各項統計和資源調度，進而有效地發揮最大的防災和救災能量。你們告訴我們說你們要有預算去建置一套系統，我想請教部長，就馬太鞍災害這個事件，請問你們分別在災前、災中、災後整備了哪些事情？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，災前是統計了目前我們的量能，機具的量能有多少，例如說我們就會整備全臺灣各環保局的量能，大概1萬5,000臺各式樣的機具，然後誰可以有空，誰可以來做這個事。"],["林委員淑芬：你們在災前就統計了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，災前就統計了，不過我也跟委員報告，因為委員上次質詢我的時候，我的確有思考到這個問題，而且我們後來也有再去光復災區去看，委員提到的問題就是我們未來真的要改進的重點。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要扣合你的是你們自己的計畫喔！你們是「112年至113年災害整備及應變與復原支援系統計畫」的建置，你們要建置這一套系統，那你們有兩個系統，一個叫環境災害管理資訊系統（EMIS），一個叫災情預警應變決策支援系統（DEDS），你們是希望透過這個資訊科技，強化臺灣在環境災害發生時，包括事前的整備、災害中的應變以及災後的復原能力，所以這個系統的技術你們花了多少錢？"],["彭部長啓明：錢我不知道，但是我有用過EMIS的系統。"],["林委員淑芬：你們花多少錢？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我現在手頭上沒有詳細的資料。"],["林委員淑芬：你們花多少錢不知道，你們要這樣子，我不好意思說是不是天花亂墜啦！或者是講得好像很好聽啦！你們要我們給你們錢，你們要建置一套資訊系統，然後這套系統多厲害！要建立一個中央化的數據資料庫，要透過大量的應用程式介面進行資料介接，系統整合來自各部會的即時資訊，包括中央氣象署，包括衛福部，包括內政部，包括你們環境部自己的，你們號稱是這樣子。","依據你們的報告，你們還說這些多元數據被整合在一個地理資訊系統的圖表和儀表板中，還要用視覺化的方式去呈現，目的是要為決策者提供一個清晰即時的全域圖像，而且你們還告訴我們說，系統要依據使用者的職權劃分不同的角色，從中央的系統管理員，到環境部司署的應變角色，到三區環境管理中心及地方環保機關，各自擁有不同的資料填報、查詢和審核的權限，你們企圖讓它成為一個層級分明的資訊管理架構，但是我要問部長，這個系統的這些建置、這些資訊真的有達成計畫目的，災前整備、災中降低危害、災後發揮救災能量嗎？有嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，災前是有的，但是災中因為我有參與實際的過程，我也跟委員坦承說，在那麼高壓的急救當中，似乎我是沒有看到這個系統。"],["林委員淑芬：那災前你們到底是做了哪一些整備？你們的系統幫你們做了哪些判斷？"],["彭部長啓明：災前的話……"],["林委員淑芬：因為我們都知道，系統在作為一個數據蒐集的記錄系統，或許表現出色，但是蒐集完以後，你要能夠運用在即時應變的參與系統上，那能力到底有沒有辦法使用，這就是一個考驗喔！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！你們知道整個系統的建置就是要確切地能夠發揮作用，真正的事前整備能力是要能夠具備風險預測、需求推估，比如說颱風來臨以前，系統應該結合氣象署的定量降雨預報還有淹水的潛勢圖資，自動推估出哪些鄉鎮會出現大規模的淹水，進一步去預測可能產生的廢棄物數量。以馬太鞍為例，你們應該早就都預測到，因為我們也掌握了，也叫地方要撤離了嘛！所以你們應該預估到哪裡會出現大規模的淹水，而你們這種災前已經預估的風險當中，你們還要跟地方環保局發出預警，建議地方政府提前準備臨時堆置場或預備清運的機具，你們的系統到底能不能做到這個？有沒有做到這樣子？部長，有嗎？你說你們建置的系統已經發揮作用，有一些功能，你們有什麼功能可以分享一下嗎？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：報告委員，我們建置系統主要是建置全國22縣市環保單位基本的機具需求，然後他們建置了機具之後，每次當有颱風災害來臨的時候，我們接受到各部會或是中央災害應變中心的資訊以後，我們就會立即通知受災地區……"],["林委員淑芬：你都不知道大概會有多少廢棄物數量，那你怎麼會知道有多少機具的需求？我再講一下，你們現在系統主要的使用者是被限定在環保的架構當中，換句話說，這不是一個跨部門全災害應變的橫向協作平臺，而是你們自己環境單位的垂直整合系統，可是我們知道真實的複合式災害它一定是要橫向協作，而且是要跨部門，所以資訊的流動一定是要跨部門的。","你們現在跨部會的橫向整合是零，而系統的使用者只有直向垂直的環境部門自己在使用，而且你們的系統在實際災害的運作模式暴露了自動化和整合性的不足。以0403花蓮地震為例，你們的報告裡面指出，你們的溝通方式是環境部人員手動推播LINE群組，提醒地方政府要進行災情通報，在真實危機的壓力下，地方應變人員仍然倚賴一個外部的、不是你們系統的、沒有整合的通訊軟體──LINE，來做基本的指令傳達。","我的意思是說，災前整備不是蒐集數據、問地方政府到底有多少機具這樣就好，不是！是要做風險預測。但要達到風險預測，你告訴我，你們的系統有達到風險預測的能力嗎？有需求推估，進而擬定應變計畫、事前整備的作用嗎？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我們的系統還是不如中央災害應變中心的資訊新而且廣。"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛！所以我才問你花多少錢。你們講得這麼好聽，EMIS、DEDS，你們的兩個系統或許是這樣念吧！我是簡稱啦！一個國家災害整備的成熟度往往體現在對災後各種複雜問題預先規劃的深度，而我們從災後來看才認為你們是不行的。你們的EMIS、DEDS系統雖然已經將焚化爐、掩埋場的營運數據納入監測，而且規劃了臨時堆置場的資訊，但是你們都停留在處理量能，包括焚化爐、垃圾掩埋場處理量能的追蹤，日本的整備模式則已經深入到對整個處理流程標準化的管理，展現了更高層次的運作準備。","我今天要特別要跟部長分享上次跟你講的災害廢棄物的處理計畫、災害廢棄物的對策指針，日本環境省制定了極為詳盡的災害廢棄物對策指針，也就是他們的處理流程。先談他們的對策指針不只是政策綱領，而是一本可以操作的行動手冊，非常明確地規範地方政府在災害應對各個階段所需要的具體措施，包括平時整備階段、災害應急階段、還有復舊、復原、復興階段。針對災害應急階段，他們還規範了臨時堆置場的設置和管理標準，要引導民眾進行廢棄物分類、如何確保勞動安全，以及針對不同廢棄物的環境保護對策是什麼，比如說為了防止粉塵逸散要定期灑水、設置防飛散網，處理石綿建材須用帆布覆蓋，而且要存放在柔性集裝袋裡；處理油品時，要在地面鋪設防滲透層。在這種狀況下，日本的對策指針還定義了什麼是災害廢棄物的範疇。","透過比較可以發現，臺灣的系統著重監控廢棄物處理設施的剩餘容積、掩埋場的貯坑量，這是一種靜態的資源盤點思維。但日本呢？他們的指引著重管理從產生廢棄物、分類、暫存到最終處理的整個流程，這是動態的運作管理思維。從這種從資源盤點到流程管理深化的做法，我們看到它體現了日本在多次大規模災害以後，將慘痛教訓轉化為標準作業程序的成熟治理能力。而我們在地方政府救災的巨大壓力之下，倉促地由台糖釋地，選址沒有經過真正的環境影響評估和社會溝通。這種事後才找土地暫置場的做法一定會導致很多惡性循環，譬如說引發民怨的惡臭，因為距離不遠就一堆又一堆嘛！譬如說設施簡陋，你們連地面鋪設不透水布、建置完成的滲出水收集系統都統統沒有，因為是臨時的嘛！","日本已經演化到即便是暫置場，他們都規劃兩階段。日本在經歷阪神大地震、東日本大震災以後分為兩階段，第一階段是暫置，我們知道第一次暫置是臨時的，因為要以趕快幫災民清理出來，讓他們可以生活為第一要務。第一階段是過渡，但是他們也早就規劃了第二階段的暫置。從第一階段的暫置場到第二階段，要做到專業化和資源循環，然後做最終處理。第一階段講求的可能是效率、可能是減壓，加速恢復災區的環境，可是第二階段就不一樣了，所以人家這樣的系統優越。你看一下，我要給你看的是他們要分流減壓，避免所有複雜作業都集中在災區周邊、他們的效率要提升。第二，暫置場的集中化和專業化提升了後續處理的規模經濟和效率。第三，他們前瞻規劃，這些都一定在災前處理，因為早就預測了！他們因為在災前整備就預測可能的問題，所以地方政府早就在地域防災計畫或者是災害廢棄物處理計畫中完成了第一次暫置場、第二次暫置場的規劃，並完成土地協調、環評和居民溝通，避免了災後倉促尋地的困境。所以包括災前計畫裡早就擬定了，包括第一次、第二次暫置場，都已經跟社區居民溝通過了。你看，這是他們在初期行動階段要做什麼、也包括緊急應對的前半階段、後半階段，還有復原、復興階段。人家的規劃包括垃圾、廢棄物的產生量、執行計畫、處理方針、處理流程、處理時程，在蒐集、搬運廢棄物的時候要做什麼、搬去哪裡、暫置場怎麼處理、二次災害防止怎麼處理、有害廢棄物危機怎麼處理、對二次暫置場要怎麼推估可能的處理量、要破碎、篩分等等，到最後還要追蹤處理。","我的意思是說，臺灣真的離日本這個模式很遠、很遠。所以我要問部長，我們對災害廢棄物的暫置完全是應急式規劃，沒有事前整備，那是不是應該規劃一套做法，要求地方政府必須在地區災害防救計畫中還有相關平時演練中預先規劃、指定完成相關整備和溝通，以確保萬一真正發生的時候能夠立即啟動，而不是一而再、再而三，總是臨時抱佛腳，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，其實從上次的質詢之後，我自己就開始跟同仁討論要如何處理，對於委員所提學習日本的建議，我們覺得這個就是我們現在很缺的。特別是急就章的時候，包含地方環保局的量能都出現問題，加上大家都急著解決，後面就造成更多問題。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你沒有政策指導啊！災害的概念裡沒有災害廢棄物的概念。如果環境部的防災連災害廢棄物處理的計畫、對策這個概念統統沒有，你就不會要求地方政府要做什麼，而地方政府也來不及做什麼。你們講災前要整備、災中要應變、災後要重建、復原，可是你們號稱有這些災前整備系統，包括災前預警、應變、決策和支援系統，名字好聽嗎？很好聽。「環境災害管理資訊系統」這個名字好聽嗎？很好聽。你們也說希望透過這些系統達到災前整備、應變和復原能力，三個名詞都講對了，可是都沒有作用，因為真的不是那麼一回事。你們要人家給你們錢建置這些系統，可是我不曉得你們是從哪裡學來的，就是沒效，目前看來是無效的系統。要痛定思痛啦！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們會檢討改進，虛心受教。針對這部分，現在我跟同仁確實在準備好好研究、探討當中。當然，因為大部分同仁都還在花蓮……"],["林委員淑芬：他山之石啊！大部分的人在那裡，但是在那裡的也是某一個業務單位啦！你們的核心部門統統在臺北正常工作，大部分在那裡的是另外一個部門。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我們會檢討，謝謝委員。"],["林委員淑芬：應該好好面對、正視，不要再這樣子。日本已經有經驗可以學習，所以是很容易學習的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","下一位請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 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謝謝主席我想主席 各位同仁我國推動這個太陽能光電是邁向2050近零轉型一個重要的基礎的措施所以我完全支持再生能源發展的方向"},{"start":24.085,"end":50.517,"text":"那在這次的風災裡面我們也看到部分的這個光電暗場仍然存在著很多的設置的風險還有環境管理的不足還有廢板這些處理延遲等等的問題所以我想今天在這個執行過程裡面不是在反對光電我是希望能夠協助政府來完善制度強化民眾對於綠能的信任我想"},{"start":51.437,"end":64.608,"text":"基本上重點是這樣子可是面對這次的風災所造成太陽光電板的受損還有這些板材外溢的甚至危及到民眾的生命財產安全所以我們認為除了研議如何精進這個環評的這個制度之外"},{"start":66.73,"end":90.102,"text":"更迫切的課題是要針對能源署對於現有以及審查中的光電暗場是否已經建立完善而且可執行的防災管理機制所以本席希望把焦點放在光電設施的防治治理責任跟制度的缺口我相信這不僅是產業署要管理的議題更攸關公共安全跟國土韌性"},{"start":90.942,"end":95.164,"text":"所以要先請教能源署李署長來這邊討論有關於相關的問題請署長"},{"start":101.61,"end":128.221,"text":"署長您好是委員好是來我先請教一下因為上個月裡面有提到這個太陽光電的這個案場設置是依法需要由專業的技師來簽證把關那另外這個本次的風災裡面能源署也會同電液審查的委員針對全國水面型的這個光電案場一共有31案來完成電液的檢驗"},{"start":129.301,"end":157.307,"text":"所以也希望能夠在兩個月裡面就要完成改善那同時要加強宣導業者能夠落實平時的巡檢想要請教第一個就是那這31個案場目前改善的情形如何具體的改善做了哪一些事情還有將來地面型的光電的這個場也是不是也要納入檢查如何能夠宣導業者能夠在平時落實這個他的巡檢是 可以跟大家報告"},{"start":158.147,"end":171.165,"text":"兩個部分一個部分就是剛才講這些水面型的我們有三十一個案場我們去把它再做一次全面的體檢那麼其中有二十二個案場大概是比較簡單 受損比較輕微的"},{"start":173.388,"end":200.916,"text":"那有九個案場是受損比較嚴重的那麼有五個那我們是希望他能夠提出改善計畫來在兩個月的時間也就是剛才講的他要提出他的改善計畫然後去做完改善那我們這個在年底前我們會再去複查他有沒有辦法完成改善那另外有四個案場是受損比較嚴重的就是我們看到比較多的那個滯洪池裡面再加一那"},{"start":201.556,"end":223.237,"text":"那受損比較嚴重那我們通常就是說請他提出改善計畫那有的有的案場我們了解就是說他可能就不改善他清走就清走他就損失了就是原來比如說原來他可能設置是3M但是有1M受到損害了他可能未來那個就清運走了我們是注重他會清運乾淨他可能就不再"},{"start":224.418,"end":249.153,"text":"增加修復它了那這個我們在年底之前會做完一個報告那第二部分就是剛才我們第二個槌尋的就是說其餘有關地面型的不只是水面型的就是地面型的這些太陽光電我們有什麼加強的措施那我們剛才也次長也報告我們現在是要求它依照災防法要去提出災害防救計畫"},{"start":250.154,"end":265.725,"text":"災害防救計畫除了事先災害來之前的準備作業也包括後面事後的廢棄物的清理那我們這個辦法已經公告了那我們會要求這些大型的業者他要提出依災方法提出災防的計畫"},{"start":266.926,"end":290.723,"text":"所以聽起來都有依照這個規定要求在執行中我們也期待能夠很快把這些該做的事情做好不過針對於這個業者落實平時的巡檢這邊是要做宣導比較奇怪這個是一個責任為什麼還要宣導本來應該做的事情有沒有更強的這個措施來把這個事情可以更完整的落實"},{"start":291.423,"end":313.239,"text":"是我們宣導就是說要叫他要落實那另外我們也會去做抽查的查核那他平常做的查核他要留下查核的記錄那我們去做抽查的時候因為我們這個案件非常多全國的太陽光店大概有九萬多件那我們去做抽查的時候他要有資料讓我們可以查"},{"start":313.639,"end":337.758,"text":"他自己巡檢要做記錄大概我們現在是希望他能夠加強這一方面至少他準備的工作應該做好是那了解了好那就謝謝署長請回座謝謝那我們知道這次風災不僅造成了嚴重的損害也凸顯了這個回收量能的問題針對現行的回收機制本席有幾個疑問想要請教彭部長部長請委員好"},{"start":343.1,"end":364.493,"text":"部長 有報告知道你所說的這個全世界的光電板的容量今年年底將到達2800個Gigawatts那台灣其實現在只有到15個Gigawatts 佔比只有0.5%其中33個光電廠的部分在12.1萬片的光電廠已經在這次丹拉斯颱風裡面受損"},{"start":365.473,"end":385.951,"text":"另外有9.1萬片已經完成資源化的處理1.8萬片經過修剪以後是何可以再利用現在也發現有1.2萬片暫置在合法場地這邊有幾個疑問請教一下部長所謂暫置是要放多久有沒有明確的處理的期程"},{"start":386.531,"end":408.333,"text":"這三個月呢還是半年還是一年那另外環境部能不能或是會成立災後光電廢棄物的管理機制納入未來如果光電案審查與營運管理規範裡面避免每一次都要先放著以後再說或者是說有沒有一個制度的管理避免讓這個站置將來就變成了棄置"},{"start":410.895,"end":435.214,"text":"環境部不能夠只告訴我們數字也希望能夠把這個管理的流程跟處理的責任可以一併來完成好 謝謝委員因為我所知道這1.2萬片它是算是一般的廢棄物那它是暫置在那個地方那按照現在的法規它大概可以最多可以只能放一年那當然因為它的處理廠的量能還有他們之間的合約可能沒有談得很好所以會"},{"start":435.774,"end":456.466,"text":"拖得比較久我們會盡量能夠督促他們盡快把他這個處理回收完成那委員提到的這個災後風電的廢棄物管理就是這個概念非常好因為其實全世界沒有遇過這種所謂的十幾萬片毀壞的台灣是第一個所以我們現在其實很多的國家也來主動跟我垂行我們怎麼去面對的這機制到底如何"},{"start":456.906,"end":475.099,"text":"所以但是我覺得我們未來也可以自己再檢討一下所以委員提出這樣的一個方式很好我們會組成一個小組由我們循環署來訂那因為包含了我們的這個資源循環促進法其實也會把這個東西放進來所以未來我相信我們可以走到一個正向的道路去進行"},{"start":475.498,"end":502.537,"text":"好 我們用前瞻性的方式來應對這些問題不知道您也說太陽板廢棄物將歸類為四葉廢棄物的管理並納入應回收的廢棄物這個部分本席非常的支持可是還是有一些問題需要克服在修法還沒有確定之前是否能夠提出全國各縣市環保局一致性的執法指引因為我想不只是南部 應該各縣市"},{"start":503.718,"end":523.144,"text":"慢慢都會碰到類似的問題還有這裡面有提到這個將來要把這個相關的費率要做合理的調整那什麼叫合理的調整未來的規劃有沒有一個方向出來也報告委員其實因為他的這個現在的供需價量有一點因為過去的量不夠所以"},{"start":523.664,"end":549.123,"text":"做的成本就比較高那未來量如果逐步可以起來相對的供需之間這個價格就有機會會下降那這個當然這個是需要財務模型跟推算的那這個目前呢是要由我們未來可能都是我們循環署來推動未來我們是現在目前為止是我們循環署跟能源署一起來合作所以這個部分呢我們近期就會來討論這樣的如何去計算推估未來的需求那怎麼樣做得更好"},{"start":549.864,"end":563.175,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長下來還有一個問題最後要請教就是有關於老舊的這些漁船太儲回收處理上面的困難在這個請教部長之前我也要先請教一下有關於農業部對這個議題有關於老舊漁船的問題會請農業部方次長"},{"start":573.3,"end":594.095,"text":"次長好我知道您是漁業方面的專家剛好今天有機會在這邊麻煩次長對於漁業方面的問題尤其是捕撈的這個漁船的生態應該很清楚尤其是這個老舊漁船的收購是一個很艱難的議題因為有很多的面向我們要同時的去考慮"},{"start":594.915,"end":616.349,"text":"那我們也知道台灣其實是一個海洋國家不管是遠洋的或者是近海的這個捕撈都是非常重要的對於漁民的生計對國家來講都是重要的問題那當然這個船用久了就會有淘汰的問題可能我們面對將來會有一萬艘的這個船需要做淘汰"},{"start":616.869,"end":642.987,"text":"那這個淘汰的過程裡面當然我們希望能夠減少過度的捕撈永續發展淘汰不符合標準船隻等等要提升我們的競爭力還有解決這個漁會船老問題跟輔導這個漁民作業等等目前比較困難的地方就是說有關於這個漁業船使用玻璃纖維材質的這個報廢困難而且回收的費用其實是高的"},{"start":644.548,"end":671.222,"text":"相關的這個船舶如果沒有好好的回收其實對地方尤其是漁館是造成一些處理上的影響那這個都是大家尤其是有漁港的這個縣市共同的痛所以想要請教次長就是說我們要完成規劃政策的這個前提要很完整的這個資料統計那目前漁業署這邊有沒有相關的資料可以讓我們多了解"},{"start":672.234,"end":685.271,"text":"跟委員報告那我們目前有在採取的這個收購老舊漁船這樣的一個計畫那去年114年就公告了之後呢總共有將近217艘的漁船前來參與這樣的一個計畫"},{"start":688.635,"end":705.21,"text":"那但是受限於經費的這個有限所以我們依照我們的經費的能量然後依序的排定這樣的優先順序以這個對於生態破壞比較大的微網漁船作為第一個優先的這個收購的順序然後依次的排列那剛剛委員所垂詢有關於就是"},{"start":705.71,"end":708.012,"text":"比較難處理的FRP的這樣的漁船的船體的這個問題那事實上我們在以前的減船的時候也曾經做過的就是把這個漁船內部的這個油倉各項清理完畢之後做為這個漁礁這樣的一個做法"},{"start":720.384,"end":745.425,"text":"目前我們也跟這個環境部這邊有在洽談就是目前有一個有一個新的比較新的技術就是利用水泥窯的這樣的一個回收的這樣的一個機制那因為FRP裡面它的這個不可燃物包括氧化鎂氧化鋁這些的部分可以作為使用那另外可燃物的樹脂的這個部分剛好可以作為一個結合所以我們目前正在洽談這方面的這樣的可行性"},{"start":745.805,"end":772.595,"text":"好謝謝市長那是不是能夠針對於如果有完整的統計資料也可以送到本席這邊來做後續的處理是謝謝市長請市長請回那最後還是要請教部長就是說老舊漁船的問題是跟光電板的處理其實有點類似有點類似有點類似因為我們知道這個回收機制的建立回收量能跟技術的確保回收預算補助機制等等都是相關我們需要去處理的地方"},{"start":773.475,"end":785.924,"text":"到底漁船的廢棄物是事業廢棄物還是一般廢棄物目前我們的處理量能是如何將來有沒有相關可以回收的技術就剛剛次長所提到的問題"},{"start":786.741,"end":810.006,"text":"那這些部長這邊有沒有開始了解或者是開始去關注到這個意思報告委員目前我們有一個科專計畫就是協助農業部在處理這個問題那現在的在試驗當中例如說剛剛講到把它進到水泥窯之後去做處理那個量能有多少我覺得委員你說的沒錯這個就跟光電板一樣需要來規劃因為那個量慢慢就會起來"},{"start":810.586,"end":822.49,"text":"是 所以如果相關營業的成果 可不可以也讓我們可以確實掌握可以可以 好 謝謝委員 謝謝沙偉謝謝 也請將到時候那個相關的報告可以提供委員會的委員們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1161,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時56分）謝謝主席。主席、各位同仁。我國推動太陽能光電是邁向2050淨零轉型重要的基礎措施，所以我完全支持再生能源發展的方向。那在這一次的風災，我們也看到部分的光電案場仍然存在著很多設置的風險，還有環境管理不足、廢板處理延遲等問題。我想今天在這個質詢過程裡面，不是在反對光電，而是希望能夠協助政府來完善制度，強化民眾對於綠能的信任，基本上的重點是這樣。可是面對這一次的風災所造成太陽光電板的受損，還有這些板材外溢，甚至危及到民眾的生命財產安全，所以我們認為除了研議如何精進環評制度之外，更迫切的課題是能源署針對現有以及審查中的光電案場，是否已經建立完善而且可執行的防災管理機制，因此，本席希望把焦點放在光電設施的防治治理責任跟制度的缺口。我相信這不僅是產業署要管理的議題，更攸關公共安全跟國土韌性，所以要先請能源署李署長來這邊討論相關的問題。"],["主席：請署長。"],["王委員正旭：署長，你好。"],["李署長君禮：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：我先請教一下，因為上個月你們有提到太陽光電案場設置，依法需要由專業技師來簽證把關。另外，本次風災能源署也會同電業審查委員，針對全國的水面型光電案場一共有31案完成電業檢驗，也希望能夠在兩個月內就完成改善，同時要加強宣導業者能夠落實平時的巡檢。第一個想要請教，這31個案場目前改善的情形如何？具體的改善做了哪一些事情？還有將來地面型的光電場是不是也要納入檢查？如何宣導業者能夠在平時落實巡檢？這可以跟大家報告。"],["李署長君禮：兩個部分，一個部分就是剛才講的，這些水面型的有31個案場，我們把它再做一次全面的體檢。其中有22個案場比較簡單、受損比較輕微，有9個案場是受損比較嚴重的，有5個，我們希望它在兩個月的時間內能夠提出改善計畫。也就是剛才講的，它要提出它的改善計畫，然後做完改善，年底前我們會再去複查它有沒有辦法完成改善。另外，有4個案場是受損比較嚴重的，我們看到比較多的是在滯洪池裡面，在嘉義那裡受損比較嚴重，我們通常就是請它提出改善計畫。有的案場據我們瞭解，它可能就不改善，它清走就清走，它就損失了，比如說原來可能是設置3mega，但是有1mega受到損害，可能未來那個就清運走了，我們是注重它會去清運乾淨，它可能就不再去增加或修復了，這個部分我們在年底之前會做完報告。","第二部分，剛才委員第二個垂詢的是，其餘有關地面型的，不只水面型的，就是地面型的這些太陽光電我們有什麼加強的措施，剛才次長也報告，我們現在是要求業者依照災防法要提出災害防救計畫，災害防救計畫除了事先災害之前的準備作業，也包括後面事後的廢棄物清理，這個辦法已經公告了，我們會要求這些大型的業者依災防法提出災防計畫。"],["王委員正旭：所以聽起來都有依照規定要求在執行中。"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["王委員正旭：我們也期待能夠很快把這些該做的事情做好，不過針對業者落實平時巡檢，這邊要做宣導，這是比較奇怪，因為這是一個責任，為什麼還要宣導？本來應該做的事情，有沒有更強的措施來把這件事情更完整的落實？"],["李署長君禮：是，我們宣導就是要叫他去落實。另外，我們也會去做抽查的查核，他平常做的查核要留下查核紀錄，那我們去做抽查的時候，因為案件非常多，全國的太陽光電大概有九萬多件，我們去做抽查的時候他要有資料讓我們可以查，他自己巡檢要做紀錄，我們現在是希望他能夠加強這一方面。"],["王委員正旭：OK，至少他準備的工作應該做好。"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["王委員正旭：瞭解，好，謝謝署長，請回座。"],["李署長君禮：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：我們知道這次風災不僅造成嚴重的損害，也凸顯了回收量能的問題，針對現行的回收機制，本席有幾個疑問想要請教彭部長，部長請。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：從部長的報告可以知道，全世界的光電板容量在今年年底將到達2,800GW，臺灣現在只有到15GW，占比只有0.5%。其中33個光電廠的部分，有12.1萬片光電板在這次的丹娜絲颱風裡面受損，另外有9.1萬片已經完成資源化處理，1.8萬片經過檢修以後可以再利用，現在也發現有1.2萬片暫置在合法場地，這邊有幾個疑問要請教部長，所謂「暫置」是要放多久？有沒有明確的處理期程？是3個月還是半年？還是一年？另外，環境部是否會建立「災後光電廢棄物管理機制」，納入未來光電案審查與營運管理規範裡面，避免每一次都要先放著以後再說？或者是說，有沒有一個制度的管理，避免讓「暫置」將來變成了「棄置」？環境部不能夠只告訴我們數字，也希望能夠把管理的流程跟處理的責任一併來完成。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。因為我所知道，這1.2萬片算是一般的廢棄物，它是暫置在那個地方，按照現在的法規大概最多只能放一年。當然他因為處理廠的量能，還有他們之間的合約可能沒有談得很好，所以會拖得比較久，我們會儘量督促他們，儘快把回收處理完成。","至於委員提到的「災後光電廢棄物管理機制」，這個概念非常好，因為全世界沒有遇過這種十幾萬片毀壞的，臺灣是第一個，所以現在很多的國家也主動來跟我垂詢，包括我們是怎麼去面對的、這個機制到底是如何，但是我覺得我們未來也可以自己再檢討一下，所以委員提出這樣的一個方式很好，我們會組成一個小組，由循環署來訂，包含我們的資源循環促進法也會把這個東西放進來，所以未來我相信我們可以走到一個正向的道路去進行。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們用前瞻性的方式來應對這些問題。部長，您也說太陽能板廢棄物將歸類為事業廢棄物的管理，並納入應回收廢棄物，這個部分本席非常地支持，可是還是有一些問題需要克服，在修法還沒有確定之前，是否能夠提出全國各縣市環保局一致性的執法指引？因為我想不只是南部，應該各縣市慢慢都會碰到類似的問題。還有，這裡面有提到，將來要把相關費率做合理的調整，什麼叫合理的調整？未來的規劃有沒有一個方向出來？"],["彭部長啓明：對，也報告委員，其實它的供需價量，因為過去的量不夠，所以做的成本就會比較高，未來的量如果逐步可以起來，相對的供需之間這個價格就有機會下降，當然這個是需要財務模型跟推算的，未來可能都是由我們循環署來推動，目前為止是我們循環署跟能源署一起來合作，所以這個部分我們近期就會來討論如何去計算，推估未來的需求，怎麼樣做得更好。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長。接下來還有一個問題，最後要請教有關於老舊漁船汰除在回收處理上面的困難，在請教部長之前，我要先請教一下農業部這個議題，有關於老舊漁船的問題，可不可以請農業部黃次長？"],["黃次長昭欽：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：次長好。黃次長，我知道您是漁業方面的專家，剛好今天有機會在這邊麻煩次長，對於漁業方面的問題，尤其是捕撈漁船的生態，您應該很清楚。老舊漁船的收購是一個很艱難的議題，因為有很多的面向我們要同時去考慮，我們也知道臺灣是一個海洋國家，不管是遠洋的或者是近海的捕撈都是非常重要的，對漁民的生計，對國家來講都是重要的問題。","當然船用久了就會有淘汰的問題，面對將來可能有1萬艘船需要做淘汰，在這個淘汰的過程裡面，當然我們是希望能夠減少過度捕撈、永續發展、淘汰不符合標準船隻等等，要提升我們的競爭力，還有解決漁廢船這個老問題以及輔導漁民作業等等。目前比較困難的地方在於漁船使用玻璃纖維材質報廢困難，而且回收的費用是高的，相關的船舶如果沒有好好地回收，其實對地方的漁管會造成一些處理上的影響，這個是有漁港的縣市共同的痛，所以想要請教次長，我們要完成規劃政策的前提，就是要有很完整的資料統計，目前漁業署這邊有沒有相關的資料可以讓我們多瞭解？"],["黃次長昭欽：跟委員報告，我們目前有在採取收購老舊漁船的計畫，去年114年公告了之後，總共有將近217艘漁船前來參與這個計畫，但是受限於經費有限，所以我們依照經費的能量依序地排定優先順序，以對生態破壞比較大的圍網漁船作為第一個優先收購的順序，然後依次排列。","至於剛剛委員所垂詢，有關於比較難處理的FRP漁船船體的問題，事實上我們在以前減船的時候，也曾經做過把漁船內部的油艙各項清理完畢之後，把它作為魚礁的一個做法。目前我們跟環境部也有在洽談，現在有一個比較新的技術，就是利用水泥窯的回收機制，因為FRP裡面的不可燃物，包括氧化鎂、氧化鋁這些部分可以作為使用；另外，可燃物的樹脂這個部分，剛好可以作為一個結合，所以我們目前正在洽談這一方面的可行性。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝次長。如果有完整的統計資料，是不是也可以送到本席這邊來做後續的處理？"],["黃次長昭欽：好，是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝次長，次長請回。","最後還是要請教部長，老舊漁船的問題其實跟光電板的處理是有點類似。"],["彭部長啓明：有點類似，對。"],["王委員正旭：因為我們知道這個回收機制的建立，回收量能跟技術的確保，以及回收預算、補助機制等等，都是我們需要去處理的地方，那漁船廢棄物到底是事業廢棄物還是一般廢棄物？目前的處理量能是如何？將來有沒有相關的回收技術？就剛剛次長所提到的問題，部長有沒有開始瞭解，或者是開始去關注到這個議題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前我們有一個科專計畫就是協助農業部在處理這個問題，現在還在試驗當中，例如說剛剛講到把它進到水泥窯之後去做處理，那個量能有多少。我覺得委員你說得沒錯，這個就跟光電板一樣，需要來規劃，因為那個量慢慢就會起來。"],["王委員正旭：是，如果有相關研議的成果，可不可以讓我們也能確實掌握？"],["彭部長啓明：可以、可以。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝召委。"],["主席：到時候相關的報告也請提供給委員會的委員們，謝謝王正旭委員發言。","請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164449","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164449","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bf780b4987b39f83c88348e19566c842c83c966d97180d5d2eef6df7d42f6b4155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:30:29 - 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我們再請主委委員長主委你是很有名的經濟學者謝謝謝謝謝謝當過這個中經院的這個院長剛才主席提起沒有問題你不用緊張啦你是很專業的而且你現在到了這個位置我們台灣的這個政治啊有碰到兩個非常嚴重的問題"},{"start":46.022,"end":70.761,"text":"一個就是政治凌駕的這個專業你有專業啊所以我們希望你來了以後不只國發會我們整個國家的這個體制運作專業可以上來這是一個第二就是因為政治性太強了所以我們現在政府螺絲釘吊滿地我希望你要扮演國發會很重要的角色包括以前研考會已經納到你們這個國發會裡面了對不對現在政府的研考做的老實講有些地方"},{"start":71.861,"end":94.172,"text":"還要再加強一點我希望你進來以後要把那個螺絲釘栓得更緊一點我現在跟你談兩個很具體的個案一個就是台灣Plus一個就是零日供給的這個投資了台灣Plus是為了讓世界看到台灣他是一個中長期的計畫8年要花我們人民納稅錢98億將近100億結果他出了什麼樣的問題"},{"start":99.445,"end":126.721,"text":"績效不彰甚至連定位都不明了所以啊他是施政目標迷航了現在只有國發會趕快把羅斯汀穿勤可以把他這個迷航把他救回來我給大家看一下在2025年上一張來2025年的時候2025年的6月5號天下雜誌做了一個專題報導他說啦台灣plus他的組織文化"},{"start":130.518,"end":158.804,"text":"編輯採訪缺乏的台灣觀念定位不明左邊這個左邊這一位是台灣plus英國籍的高層叫艾永青這個事情鬧得非常大 他在上個月啊他本來在台灣發展得非常好 薪水很高的喔他上個月買了一張單程的機票他就回英國去了 他說我永遠離開台灣了他提了兩個點也是非常重要的他說啊 包括台灣plus"},{"start":160.569,"end":187.415,"text":"新聞遭受到政治的干擾非常嚴重而且我們台灣還有媒體的公共討論見區極端他說他本來對台灣是非常熱愛的我們台灣的這個公共的這個論壇討論啊是非常理性而且非常熱情的可是現在變成一個極端了所以他就回應我去這兩個問題都非常非常嚴重那為什麼會這麼嚴重我們來找這個病因好不好來我們看下一張"},{"start":190.216,"end":217.296,"text":"他的問題出在哪邊他本來是一個要發展國際數位傳播計畫對不對這個是經過國發會審議行政院核定的計畫好 主委現在來到你的專業了他沒有任何的量化指標你會怕這個對不對這多嚴重一個事情政府用人民納稅錢將近"},{"start":219.444,"end":239.613,"text":"將近100億結果他的施政的這個目標裡面要怎麼達到他的成績單 怎麼樣有具體的量化指標沒有 來先看左邊 110年的時候到113年他提出從那八大這個疫情的這個績效 諸位 一個"},{"start":241.447,"end":269.722,"text":"連一個量化的指標都沒有就是我要做到什麼 你說你要做到多少成功我們人民納稅錢給你的你要有什麼樣的計畫 達到什麼樣的這個目標一個都沒有這個以前的國發會跟行政院出了問題文化部也出了問題到了今年114年到117年又花40億結果八項變成兩項更嚴重的我給大家看一個"},{"start":271.527,"end":296.855,"text":"審計部在去年的2月份審計部跳出來了他說你施政一定要先有計畫對不對一定有一個很具體的指標 量化的指標竟然都沒有連審計部都講話了結果後來文化部說他自己要訂我發現一個大問題了他訂了以後"},{"start":298.035,"end":326.931,"text":"非常的不明確來注意我給你看一個東西很重要行政院所屬各機關中長程個案計畫編審的這個要點就是說你要動人民的納稅錢你國家往前有進步的就像台灣plus你要發展國際的世衛傳播好那你的計畫目標你一定要具體的說明而且盡量要產出型或者是成果效益型的指標就是要一個量化的指標嘛結果都沒有"},{"start":328.525,"end":351.59,"text":"這是不是國發會現在應該加強的地方所以對不對是不是馬上要做檢討的地方對因為跟委員跟委員報告說這個案子是我們的那個百億基金的一職那是由文化部在負責那文化部他自己本身有有一個管理委員會在在在做那基本上由影視局進行徵選"},{"start":354.25,"end":380.035,"text":"主委不好意思我今天本來應該很尊重你讓你把話講完不過因為時間很有限我提醒一個事情不要把責任推給文化部文化部做該做的現在更嚴重我現在跟你講更重要的我說為什麼你的位置這麼重要我們大家對你有期待國發會的角色一定要充分發揮我今天講的是非常具體的你看要盡量以產出型跟成果效益型為指標要有量化的指標"},{"start":381.495,"end":406.724,"text":"這個就是你要做的事情了可是國發會到現在沒有做我現在具體的要求你回去重新去檢討好不好要求文化部跟台灣Plus你用人民納稅錢100億喔目前出了這麼多問題你是學經濟的嘛對不對你現在把它這個量化的指標把它很具體的寫出來你到底要達成什麼目標而且要快我跟你講我現在審預算對不對"},{"start":408.547,"end":432.888,"text":"立法院審議算你先看他的計畫嘛看他到底要達成多大的這個量化的這個目標嘛對不對這個東西現在沒有那這樣台灣普拉斯今年的預算我就沒辦法審喔好不好我們會跟文化部討論就是說怎麼樣來來進進這一個部分各位我今天只是舉這個例子更重要的現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地就是你現在要把那個螺絲釘要栓緊我今天提的是一個辦法如果是中長期的"},{"start":433.308,"end":453.506,"text":"你就要合乎量化的指標好不好你來了以後我希望台灣的政府是有改變的這會努力 好不好好 另外一個也是很重要的這個寧日公籍國發基金出的 到處的用了人民的納稅錢1.1億每次有事情發生國發會出去的出現了一堆問題出現了一堆問題"},{"start":462.438,"end":474.23,"text":"我從五月份開始追這個十月份我還請你們給我一個內容的說明結果你們要踢給文化部 就跟你剛剛講的是一樣的"},{"start":478.291,"end":500.107,"text":"第一個不要踢啤酒好不好這是一個不要文化部踢給國泡會國泡會又踢回去要勇於去認識好不好特別是文化部講得很清楚他說他實施了一段時間以後他一定會把案子送到你們這邊來這個成果送到你這邊嘛對不對你把這個成果好好地檢視一下好不好好來我們看一下凝固供給出了什麼問題"},{"start":502.677,"end":523.66,"text":"第一類 人民納稅錢1.1億然後呢 影視權威啊他這個 他就評分啦10分是8分結果出現啦 各位你看高達8級就只有低於3分"},{"start":526.152,"end":553.906,"text":"這是非常前輩的 但那個鄭克爽鄭克爽雖然出來有一點在開玩笑跟消遣他說現在清了都去灌那個分數啦分數有稍微高一點點 不過大概在4到5最嚴重是因為我們人民那麼多人納稅錢收視率那麼差 這是一個 更嚴重的方恩格 這是一個非常有名的政論評論家他講什麼來我們看他怎麼講寧日攻擊最後竟然是以步槍擊退"},{"start":556.24,"end":578.643,"text":"大陸的解放軍的艦隊跟艦隊激情怎麼編到這麼遠 收視率又差然後呢一堆都是力營的導演 力營的相關的力友友得利然後呢黑熊學院的得利欸 年齡熱攻擊裡面還出現黑熊學院在幫忙訓練民防"},{"start":582.264,"end":605.447,"text":"你這樣怎麼對得起人民呢那你從國發基金出去每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢耶好不好 所以指委請針對零日供給這個事情我覺得應該應該要好好去做一個檢討包括以後你們要投資上次那個劉指委有答應我了以後不要以後投資是投資公司不要去投資單獨的"},{"start":607.389,"end":613.352,"text":"一個G好不好我這上次有答應我的你要做的時候就不能改革好不好好最後我用大概30秒時間那個強化國發基金的監督"},{"start":618.598,"end":636.651,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨有那時候特別發起所以在立法院裡組成的國發基金有沒有產生弊案的這個調查委員會這個調查報告已經出來了 各位請你跟國發會的同仁好 看一看 好不好那我知道你非常有理想 社長你來拜訪我的時候 你有想你要做一部分的改革我們今天時間有限 好不好"},{"start":637.552,"end":652.63,"text":"你給我一份報告一個禮拜好不好把你準備在國發基金怎麼監督不要再產生弊案不要再浪費我們人民的納稅錢了另外已經產生過弊案了包括聯合再生如昕你怎麼解決我知道你有做的功課啦一個禮拜你給我一份報告好不好"},{"start":653.31,"end":673.55,"text":"那針對我剛講的前面那兩個非常嚴重的台灣PASS你趕快把他救回來不要讓他迷航了大概一個禮拜請跟文化部號討論一下做一個比較看你要怎麼把他抓回來正途好不好一定要有具體的量化的這個數據好不好那零數供給零數供給這個以後怎麼去改你大概一個禮拜給我一份報告可以嗎好可以好謝謝主委加油謝謝委員好謝謝我們張旗開委員的這個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時30分）謝謝主席，請葉主委。"],["主席：好，再請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。主委，你是很有名的經濟學者。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：當過中經院的院長，剛才主席提醒你，你不用緊張啦！你是很專業的，而且你現在到了這個位置。臺灣的政治碰到兩個非常嚴重的問題：第一個，政治凌駕專業，你有專業啊！所以我們希望你來了以後，不只國發會，我們整個國家的體制運作，專業可以提升上來，這是一個；第二個，就是因為政治性太強了，所以我們現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地，我希望你要扮演國發會很重要的角色，包括以前研考會已經納到你們國發會裡面了，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["張委員啓楷：現在政府的研考做得老實講有些地方還要再加強一點，我希望你進來以後，要把那個螺絲釘拴得更緊一點。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在跟你談兩個很具體的個案：一個就是TaiwanPlus；一個就是「零日攻擊」的投資。TaiwanPlus是為了讓世界看到臺灣，它是一個中長期的計畫，8年要花我們人民納稅錢98億，將近100億，結果它出了什麼樣的問題？績效不彰，甚至連定位都不明，所以它施政目標迷航了，現在只有請國發會趕快把螺絲釘拴緊，可以把它這迷航救回來。我給大家看一下，在2025年6月5日天下雜誌做的專題報導，說TaiwanPlus的組織文化，編輯與採訪缺乏了臺灣觀念、定位不明。","簡報上的左邊這位是臺灣TaiwanPlus英國籍的前高層叫艾永清，這件事情鬧得非常大，他本來在臺灣發展得非常好、薪水也很高，他上個月買了一張單程的機票回英國去了，他說：我永遠離開臺灣了。他提了兩個點，也是非常重要的，他說包括TaiwanPlus新聞遭受到政治的干預非常嚴重，而且我們臺灣還有媒體的公共討論漸趨極端。他說他本來對臺灣是非常熱愛的，我們臺灣公共論壇的討論是非常理性而且非常熱情的，可是現在變成一個極端了，所以他就回英國去。這兩個問題都非常非常嚴重，為什麼會這麼嚴重，我們來找這個病因，好不好？它的問題出在哪邊？它本來是要發展國際數位傳播的一個計畫，TaiwanPlus是經過國發會審議及行政院核定的計畫，注意！現在來到你的專業了，它沒有任何的量化指標，你學經濟的嘛，對不對？這是多嚴重的事情，政府用將近100億的人民納稅錢，結果它的施政目標裡要怎麼達到它的成績單？怎麼樣有具體的量化指標？沒有。","在110年到113年，他提出有8大預期績效，主委，連一個量化的指標都沒有，就是你說你要做到多成功，我們人民納稅錢給你，你要有怎麼樣的計畫？要達到怎麼樣的目標？一個都沒有，以前的國發會跟行政院出了問題，文化部也出了問題，到了今年114年到117年又要花40億，結果8項變成2項。更嚴重的，在去年的2月份審計部跳出來了，他說：你施政一定要先有計畫，對不對？一定要有很具體的量化指標，竟然都沒有，連審計部都講話了，結果後來文化部說自己要訂。我發現一個大問題，他訂了以後，非常的不明確。注意！我給你看個很重要的東西，在「行政院所屬各機關中長程個案計畫編審要點」裡，倘若你要用人民的納稅錢，你國家往前有進步的，就像TaiwanPlus要發展國際的數位傳播，你的計畫目標要具體的說明，而且儘量要產出型或者是成果效益型的指標，要一個量化的指標嘛！結果都沒有。主委，這是不是國發會現在應該加強的地方，對不對？是不是馬上要做檢討的地方？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。跟委員報告，這個案子是我們百億基金的一支，是由文化部在負責。文化部自己本身有一個管理委員會在做，基本上由影視局進行徵選，包括審議的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，不好意思。我今天本來應該要尊重你，讓你把話講完，不過因為時間很有限，我提醒一件事情，不要把責任推給文化部……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會。"],["張委員啓楷：文化部做該做的，現在更嚴重，我現在跟你講更重要的，為什麼你的位置這麼重要，我們大家對你有期待，國發會的角色一定要充分發揮，我今天講的都是非常具體的，你看要儘量以產出型跟成果效益型為指標，要有量化的指標，這就是你要做的事情了。可是國發會到現在沒有做，我現在具體的要求你回去重新檢討，好不好？要求文化部跟TaiwanPlus，他用人民納稅錢100億喔！目前出了這麼多問題，你是學經濟的嘛，對不對？你請他們把這量化的指標很具體的寫出來「到底要達成什麼目標？」而且要快，我跟你講，我現在審預算，立法院審預算一定先看到計畫嘛！看它到底要達成多大的量化目標嘛，對不對？這個東西現在沒有，那TaiwanPlus今年的預算我就沒辦法審喔，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。我們會跟文化部討論，就是怎麼樣來精進這個部分。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我今天只是舉這個例子，更重要的，現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地，就是你現在把那個螺絲釘要拴緊，我今天提的是一個辦法，如果是中長期的，你就要合乎量化的指標，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：你來了以後，我希望臺灣的政府是有改變的，一起努力好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好。另外，也是很重要的，「零日攻擊」從你們國發基金出來投資的，用了人民的納稅錢啊！1.1億中大概有4,000萬是國發會投資的，也出現了一堆問題，我從5月份開始追這件，10月份我還請你們給我一個內容的說明，結果你們又踢給文化部，跟你剛剛講的是一樣的，第一個，不要踢皮球，好不好？這是一個。不要文化部踢給國發會，國發會又踢回去，要勇於任事，好不好？特別是文化部講得很清楚，說他實施了一段時間以後，他一定會把案子送到你們那邊，這個成果會送來你那邊嘛，對不對？你把這個成果好好去檢視一下，好不好？","我們看一下「零日攻擊」出了什麼問題，第一個，花1.1億的人民納稅錢，在影視權威指數的評分裡，10分是滿分，主委，你看，結果出現高達八集低於3分，這是非常權威的，但那個政客爽有一點在開玩笑跟消遣，他說現在青鳥都去灌那個分數啦！分數有稍微高一點點，不過大概到4到5分，最嚴重是用我們人民那麼多的納稅錢，結果收視率那麼差。更嚴重的，這位方恩格是一位非常有名的政論評論家，他說什麼呢？我們看他怎麼講，「零日攻擊」最後居然是以步槍去擊退大陸解放軍的艦隊。劇情怎麼編到這麼離譜，收視率又差，然後一堆都是綠營的導演、綠營相關的綠友友得利，黑熊學院也得利，連「零日攻擊」裡面還出現黑熊學院在幫忙訓練民防，你這樣怎麼對得起人民呢？你從國發基金出去，每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢！好不好？主委，針對「零日攻擊」這個事情，我覺得應該要好好去做檢討，包括以後你們要投資，上次劉主委有答應我，以後投資是投資公司，不要去投資單獨的一個劇，好不好？這個是上次有答應我的，你要做這一部分的改革，好不好？","最後我用大概三十秒時間。關於強化國發基金的監督，我們台灣民眾黨有特別發起，所以在立法院也組成了國發基金有無產生弊案的調查委員會，這個調查報告已經出來了，主委，請你跟國發會的同仁好好看一看，好不好？我知道你非常具有理想，你拜訪我的時候有講你要做一部分的改革，我們今天時間有限，你給我一份報告，一個禮拜，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：就你準備在國發基金怎麼監督而不要再發生弊案，不要浪費人民的納稅錢了。另外，已經發生過弊案的包括聯合再生、如興，你要怎麼解決？我知道你有做功課了，一個禮拜給我一份報告，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：針對我剛剛講的前面那兩個非常嚴重的TaiwanPlus，你趕快把它救回來，不要讓它迷航了，大概一個禮拜請跟文化部好好討論一下，做一個比較，看你要怎麼把它抓回來正途，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。"],["張委員啓楷：一定要有具體的量化數據，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為對於……"],["張委員啓楷：「零日攻擊」這個以後怎麼去改，大概一個禮拜給我一份報告，可以嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委，加油。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的詢答。接下來請鄭天財委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我要邀請教育部 權序部跟人事總署請兩位次長還有副人事長委員好"},{"start":19.686,"end":36.828,"text":"各位好 我想我們今天在現場都是非常關心我們公教的人員的福利那我特別關心的是其實市長知道我們在教文會諮詢的時候也就是我們最近新增加的給公教人員的身心調試價"},{"start":38.95,"end":66.353,"text":"10月10號開始上路那很多的公教人員都很期待就是說我們在過往的試駕以外我們新增了身心調試駕的價別但是呢很多的團體教師團體在反映主要幾項問題第一個是目前私校是沒有納入待客補助第二點是這個待客人力也很難找就是如果找不到待客人力的話可能教師也不敢來請這個價"},{"start":67.634,"end":76.473,"text":"第三點是因為你們現行的大家原來期待的是新增價別但沒想到上路之後你們是把它併入市價來計算"},{"start":78.311,"end":105.72,"text":"所以我就回去找了當時我們在研議要來新增身心調試假這個價別的時候教育部也曾經邀集了我們縣市地方政府的教育局來討論嘛對不對當時有調查我們縣市地方教育局大家的意見就是有關於我們是七天試假另外加三天的身心調試假還是說三天的身心調試假併入既有的七天試假來計算"},{"start":107.521,"end":123.981,"text":"當時呢在我們22個縣市當中有9個縣市地方政府的教育局都是同意升薪調試假的3天是另外新增的也就是7加37天試假加3天升薪調試假總共是10天"},{"start":126.256,"end":138.953,"text":"當時是有七個縣市的地方交局都同意喔 也認為是可行的但是我們最後上路的時候卻是三天升薪條市價併入七天市價計算來請問一下市長 這個是什麼原因啊"},{"start":140.215,"end":165.381,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子因為我們在跟相關部會跟各式教育局談的時候大概有兩個議題一個就是要不要獨立給假的問題那這個部分因為考量到說各個不同職系因為有教師有工人有軍人甚至還有一些勞工所以後來才決定說我們還是以"},{"start":166.841,"end":182.193,"text":"納入試駕企業裡面去計算但是我們會另外提供課貸的一個補助全部由政府來支援不用讓老師來負擔那這部分相較於目前的課貸的規定是一個進步的或是有前進"},{"start":183.113,"end":209.319,"text":"是因為當初是有提到說希望教師跟公務人員是一致的所以說是之前是人事總署跟全序部認為公務人員應該要三天的申請條市價要併入七天市價計算嗎能不能請全序部跟人總來給我一個回覆是的我們就是那個參照家庭照顧價的那個處理方式併入那個市價來做處理好"},{"start":213.644,"end":230.518,"text":"剛剛其實主持人已經提過了 因為各種職域都這個聲音調整是大家都需要的 所以我們從軍公教開始做示範所以也不希望距離拉得太大 各職域距離比較大所以全序部跟人總 我們是主管公務人員嘛"},{"start":231.536,"end":249.967,"text":"那教育部這邊是主管教師因為現在基層很多教師還有地方政府都在反映說這三天的身心調適假在我們第一線教學現場對老師來說確實是有所需要的而大家當初期待的三天身心調適假就是新增的價別"},{"start":250.467,"end":265.928,"text":"你在食物上你把它併入既有的七天釋迦你看像今天台中市就傳出來啦老師說十月十號上路要來請聖經體老師下來結果學校跟他說什麼你先把七天的釋迦用完再來請你看食物上就很容易會遇到這樣的問題"},{"start":268.586,"end":290.126,"text":"這個如果說啦因為教育部現在應該要持續的跟我們地方的教育局還有基層的教師團體持續的來討論上路之後有沒有需要調整是不是可以來研議這三天申請調適假另外計算如果說教育人員教育部這裡有這樣子的討論這個我們程序部跟人總會反對嗎"},{"start":293.928,"end":322.633,"text":"就像剛剛跟委員報告因為我們要考慮到其他職域的問題因為譬如說像目前勞工他是沒有這樣的假那如果我們在外假這三天進去的話那這個可能要在省政考量這個齁 我們公教的人員的這些福利在社會上都是叫做帶頭示範作用像我們嘉興 過去嘉興也是我們公教先行是為了要帶動民間公司行號讓勞工的權益也可以往前進"},{"start":323.553,"end":344.615,"text":"不是去製造衝突這才叫做改革啊如果說我們都不敢做不敢往前跨一步那社會怎麼會跟我們一起前進呢既然我們要新增身心調適價這個價別就是因為在當代現代社會確實有所需要包括我們衛福部也都在推動青少年的身心健康把他去汙名化"},{"start":345.976,"end":372.086,"text":"這個在我們公教人員的福利上面去先行示範這是一個很重要的社會帶領的作用不是在製造衝突所以呢我希望教育部持續的跟教師團體來溝通討論那倘若教育主管機關嘛如果說你們就拍板定案我們教師身心調試假三天就另外計算不必入期天試假我希望人總跟學術部不要來反對"},{"start":373.789,"end":402.728,"text":"甚至也應該要來跟上這個才是有辦法去增加我們第一現場讓老師在這個替我們教學的時候可以讓他有比較好的環境那最後一點我要關心的是因為時間有限但是因為我們有這個人事總署深夜為勞津貼其實就是大夜班 凌晨半夜12點到凌晨6點有來值班 大部分是警消人員我們現在是嚴禮要把它擴大來發放 有沒有在討論當中了"},{"start":405.429,"end":428.696,"text":"就是說過去只有外勤的我們現在要把駐地的內勤的深夜值班景瀟的津貼也把他加入有沒有在研擬了跟委員報告我們因為有值班的當然有各種類型的機關那我們從景瀟海巡開始已經核定了吧那其他的部分我們也有這個就是跟各機關徵詢的意見在做整體的研議"},{"start":429.156,"end":439.027,"text":"我希望 這討論許久了 趕快來把它增加因為我們內勤的 直大夜班的這些警消 海巡人員 都同樣的辛苦這個我再跟你們追蹤進度 好不好好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":985,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時51分）好，謝謝主席。我要邀請教育部、銓敘部跟人事總處。"],["主席：請兩位次長還有副人事長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：各位好。我們今天在現場都是非常關心公教人員的福利，我特別關心的其實次長也知道，也就是最近新增加的給公教人員的身心調適假，10月10號開始上路。很多的公教人員都很期待，就是我們在過往的事假以外，新增了身心調適假的假別。但是很多教師團體反映主要有幾項問題，第一個是目前私校沒有納入代課補助；第二點是代課人力也很難找，如果找不到代課人力，可能教師不敢請這個假；第三點是因為你們現行的，大家原來期待的是新增假別，但沒想到上路之後你們是把它併入事假來計算。我就回去找了當時我們在研議要新增身心調適假這個假別的時候，教育部也曾經邀集了縣市地方政府的教育局來討論，對不對？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：當時有調查縣市地方教育局的意見，就是是7天事假，另外加3天的身心調適假，還是說3天的身心調適假併入既有的7天事假來計算。當時在22個縣市當中，有9個縣市地方政府的教育局，都是同意身心調適假的3天是另外新增的，也就是7加3，7天事假加3天身心調適假，總共是10天。當時是有7個縣市的地方教育局都同意，也認為是可行的。最後上路的時候卻是3天身心調適假併入7天事假計算，請問一下次長，這個是什麼原因？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，這個案子因為我們在跟相關部會，跟各縣市教育局談的時候，大概有兩個議題，一個就是要不要獨立給假的問題。這部分因為考量到各個不同職系，因為有教師、有公務人員、有軍人，甚至還有一些勞工，所以後來才決定還是以納入事假7天計算。但是我們會另外提供課代的補助，全部由政府來支應，不用讓老師來負擔。這部分相較於目前的課代規定是進步的，是有前進。"],["吳委員沛憶：當初有提到希望教師跟公務人員是一致的，所以說之前是人事總處跟銓敘部，認為公務人員應該要將3天的身心調適假併入7天事假計算嗎？能不能請銓敘部跟人總給我回復？"],["懷次長敍：是的，我們就是參照家庭照顧假的處理方式，併入事假來處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。"],["張副人事長秋元：其實剛剛朱次長已經提過了，因為各種職域，這個身心調適假是大家都需要的，所以我們從軍公教開始做示範，也不希望各職域距離拉得太大。"],["吳委員沛憶：銓敘部跟人總是主管公務人員，教育部是主管教師。"],["張副人事長秋元：對。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為現在基層很多教師還有地方政府都在反映，說這3天的身心調適假在第一線教學現場，對老師來說確實是有所需要的，而大家當初期待的3天身心調適假就是新增的假別。你在實務上把它併入既有的7天事假，你看像今天臺中市就傳出來了，老師說10月10號上路要請身心調適假，結果學校跟他說什麼？你先把7天的事假用完再來請，你看實務上就很容易會遇到這樣的問題。","教育部現在應該要持續地跟地方的教育局，還有基層的教師團體來討論，上路之後有沒有需要調整，是不是可以來研議這3天身心調適假另外計算？如果教育人員在教育部這裡有這樣子的討論，銓敘部跟人總會反對嗎？"],["懷次長敍：這個就像剛剛跟委員報告的，因為我們要考慮到其他職域的問題，因為譬如說像目前勞工是沒有這樣的假，如果我們再外加這3天進去的話，這個可能要再審慎考量，不同職域之間……"],["吳委員沛憶：公教人員的這些福利在社會上都是叫做帶頭示範作用，像過去加薪也是公教先行，是為了要帶動民間公司行號讓勞工的權益也可以往前進，不是去製造衝突，這才叫做改革啊！如果說我們都不敢做，不敢往前跨一步，那社會怎麼會跟我們一起前進呢？既然要新增身心調適假這個假別，就是因為在當代，現代社會確實有所需要，包括衛福部也都在推動青少年的身心健康，把它去污名化。在公教人員的福利上面先行示範，是一個很重要的社會帶領作用，而不是在製造衝突，所以我希望教育部持續跟教師團體溝通討論。倘若教育主管機關拍板定案，教師身心調適假3天就另外計算，不併入7天事假，我希望人總跟銓敘部不要反對，甚至也應該要來跟上，這個才有辦法讓第一現場的老師在教學的時候可以有比較好的環境。","最後一點我要關心的是，因為時間有限，但是人事總處有深夜危勞津貼，其實就是大夜班，半夜12點到凌晨6點值班，大部分是警消人員。我們現在是研擬要把它擴大發放，有沒有在討論當中了？就是說過去只有外勤的，現在要讓駐地的、內勤的深夜值班警消也有津貼，有沒有在研擬了？"],["張副人事長秋元：有。跟委員報告，有值班的當然有各種類型的機關，從警消海巡開始已經核定了，其他的部分，我們也有跟各機關徵詢意見，在整體研議當中。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這討論許久了，我希望趕快來把它增加，因為內勤值大夜班的這些警消、海巡人員都同樣的辛苦。這個我再跟你們追蹤進度，好不好？"],["張副人事長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：登記發言委員都已經詢答完畢。","現在有葉元之委員再度請求詢答，在場委員有沒有異議？（無）好，沒有異議的話，接著請葉元之委員進行詢答，時間5分鐘為限。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164447","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164447","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b72d93beea365ea70720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d2ba0ce5b3b925cb395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:48:14 - 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我們會努力接下來本學要請教7月上旬的當然是颱風重創了南台灣"},{"start":165.666,"end":194.485,"text":"它高達的17級的陣風尤其讓位於滋洪池的水面的光電板受寵非常的嚴重那儘管這個是佔台灣所有整體性受損的光電板總體量是1%但是在水面被吹得一團亂的這些光電板還是讓人民觸目驚心還是非常的觸目驚心那受寵光電板超過了10萬片"},{"start":195.946,"end":220.791,"text":"超過了2000公噸這個數字幾乎相當於過去五年全台廢棄物的總和五年全台廢棄物的一個總和所以本期要請教院長也已經指示要將廢棄物清理法來做修正也就是說將光電板納入應回收的這個廢棄物的"},{"start":224.952,"end":247.658,"text":"範圍 內容 那請教目前的進度是如何呢報告委員 我們現在在修法的當中本部的修法的內容已經把這樣的概念已經融入進來的那整個廢清法的修正現在在院裡面在審核當中行政院那邊審核當中我們希望盡早可以送到大院能夠讓委員來 院裡面審查當中那你們的KPI預計什麼時候會送進來呢"},{"start":249.158,"end":265.884,"text":"我們也希望能夠快一點因為院長也已經指示了你所謂的能夠快大概是什麼時候呢我們希望這個會期就可以送到大院來這個會期送來因為本席要告訴你的是說經過了一段時間之後它毀損的光電板所留下來還有細小的"},{"start":267.32,"end":284.705,"text":"矽晶片的一個碎片甚至還有玻璃的顆粒甚至還有塑膠浮桶的碎片還有電線散落在岸邊甚至我們看到有部分是他吹來吹去深埋在土裡頭"},{"start":286.552,"end":302.971,"text":"這些的問題都必須要去解決所以我們看到根據目前你環境部你的資料裡頭是說目前我們台灣可以有核准可以處理這些光電板的業者大概是只有4家"},{"start":303.872,"end":330.044,"text":"所以包含了你希望盡快在這個會期送進來第二個議題也就是說目前你核准的這些處理只有試一下那符合這些容量嗎請說說現在是可以的那我們也鼓勵因為但是有一個問題就是說這次發生的這個光電板損毀是在南部那我們的幾家大的全部都在北部特別是桃園跟苗栗所以距離有點遠費用就相對的運送比較高"},{"start":330.525,"end":334.682,"text":"所以我們現在也鼓勵南部也應該有一些回收的業者來做這個事情"},{"start":335.245,"end":362.876,"text":"所以也就是我們修法然後我們要將它納入那同時也要到底我們能不能做得到這一個容量都必須要整體性去考量接下來最後一個議題我想要邀請這個經濟部因為風災之後我們的光電暗場滿目倉儀也讓民眾十分的憂心對環境的一個影響因此卓院長也特別指示經濟部你要組成跨部會的總體"},{"start":364.838,"end":366.682,"text":"體檢小組有沒有這回事"},{"start":368.296,"end":385.205,"text":"謝謝委員 你們成立了嗎當大師颱風之後我們這些體檢針對31個案場包括我們這個外界矚目的水面型的部分我們都有去檢查了那我們也指定他一定的時間來完成改善什麼時候完成因為要進行整體性的場館管理還有抗災的韌性災害應變機制以及災後清除復原的這些整體性的檢討特別是在強化整個光電案"},{"start":397.671,"end":405.248,"text":"暗藏裡面的防災韌性所以你針對目前所體檢你預計什麼時候可以完成這些體檢"},{"start":407.079,"end":431.211,"text":"這個問題分為兩個部分針對抗防災的這個韌性的部分我們已經頒布了相關的規定要求所有的開發廠商必須要提出災害防救計畫併入在災害防救計畫裡面這個就是以前我們核准的時候我們並沒有提出所以現在碰到了這些實例我們提出那本席要請教也就是說目前你的進度來"},{"start":434.365,"end":452.495,"text":"這個所謂的規定已經公告了這第一個 第二個的話 針對於體檢的缺失還有一些很少數的部分還沒有完成改善我們會持續的來追蹤你持續的來追蹤 你預計什麼時候完成體檢因為卓院長指示啊你預計什麼時候完成這些體檢啊"},{"start":454.305,"end":483.107,"text":"我們要求他大概年底前要提出來然後提出來之外我們還要複查去確定他所提出來的改善事項或是進行的改善事項有沒有合乎我們的標準為什麼本席要提出這個呢因為民眾很憂心到底他有沒有狀況他有沒有毒他要怎麼處理所以您現在給本席的回答就是說在年底以前你們的復檢一定會來做完成給國人報告是不是如此"},{"start":483.747,"end":500.126,"text":"對 而且這個 所以它能光電白它是非常穩定的這個物質它基本上對水質都有影響請問這本席的提問 是不是年底前你會檢查完畢 然後復檢完成給國人報告 是不是如此 是謝謝好 謝謝楊卓英委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1115,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時48分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，首先邀請環境部部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。7月份丹娜絲颱風毀損光電板大概10萬片，當然這是顯性的數字，我們不知道隱性的還有沒有。我們看到烏山頭水庫浮動的太陽能板引發外界質疑，是不是會有影響到水質的問題？雖然政府表示這個對環境沒有什麼影響，水質也無虞，但民眾還是認為不安心，因為政府好像事先沒有跟民眾說明清楚，所以我首先要請教部長，環境部研議要將水面型的光電納入環評，是不是有這一回事？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們在研議當中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：研議當中也就是表示當時核准的時候，你們也沒有想到會有這樣的事件發生？"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為全世界的水面型光電，就我們現在蒐集到的資料，沒有一個國家的水面型光電有環評。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有，因為我們看到這個事情的面向及民眾的不安，所以你們預計要來研議，將水面型的光電納入環評。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就誠如你說的，全世界還沒有。因為讓民眾安心非常重要，跟地方政府溝通也非常重要，所以本席要請教，預計什麼時候你們可以完成？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望年底之前，因為10月31號以前……其實這次子法的修正不是只有水面型的光電，還包含其他項目，我們現在在彙集意見當中，針對子法，本部會進行公聽，然後參考……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對本席提問的，也就是水面型的光電必須納入環評，你剛才的回答是，預計年底、12月底以前能夠給社會大眾一個方向。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為推動綠能、落實淨零碳排是大家的共識，但是面對社會的共識跟民眾對於光電板的疑慮，政府更應該要負責任，而且不應該忽視，所以你們預計是在12月底能夠提出。"],["彭部長啓明：對，希望，我們會努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是如此，好。","接下來本席要請教，7月上旬丹娜絲颱風重創了南臺灣，高達17級的陣風，尤其讓位於滯洪池水面的光電板受創非常嚴重，儘管受損光電板只占臺灣整體總量1%，但在水面被吹得一團亂的這些光電板還是讓人怵目驚心，受創光電板超過了10萬片、超過了2,000公噸，這個數字幾乎相當於過去5年全臺廢棄物的總額……"],["彭部長啓明：太陽光電。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長也已經指示要將廢棄物清理法修正，也就是將光電板納入應回收廢棄物的範圍，請教目前的進度如何？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在在修法當中，本部修法的內容已經把這樣的概念融入進來。廢清法的修正現在在行政院審查中，我們希望儘早可以送到大院，能夠讓委員來跟我們指教。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：既然已經在院裡面審查當中，那你們的KPI預計什麼時候會送進來呢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們也希望能夠快一點，因為院長也已經指示了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你所謂的能夠快一點，大概是什麼時候呢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們希望這個會期就可以送到大院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個會期就送來？因為本席要告訴你的是，經過了一段時間之後，毀損的光電板所留下來的有細小的矽晶片碎片、玻璃的顆粒，還有塑膠浮桶的碎片，甚至還有電線散落在岸邊，甚至我們看到有部分是吹來吹去後深埋在土裡，這些問題都必須解決。根據環境部的資料顯示，目前臺灣有核准可以處理這些光電板的業者只有四家，所以你希望儘快在這個會期送進來。第二個議題，目前你核准的處理業者只有四家，符合這些容量嗎？請說明。"],["彭部長啓明：現在是可以的，我們也鼓勵，但是有一個問題就是這次發生光電板損毀都在南部，幾家大的業者全部都在北部，特別是桃園跟苗栗，因為距離有點遠，相對的運送費用就比較高，所以我們現在鼓勵南部也應該有一些回收業者來做這個事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們要修法將它納入，同時我們到底能不能做得到？這個容量都必須要整體性考量。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來最後一個議題，我想要邀請經濟部，因為風災之後光電案場滿目瘡痍，也讓民眾十分憂心對環境造成影響，因此，卓院長也特別指示經濟部要組成跨部會的總體檢小組，有沒有這回事？你們成立了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。丹娜絲颱風之後，我們針對31個案場體檢，包括外界矚目的水面型部分，我們都有去檢查了。我們也指定他在一定的時間完成改善。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候完成？因為要進行整體性的案場管理，還有抗災韌性、災害應變機制以及災後清除復原等整體性檢討，特別是強化光電案場的防災韌性。你預計什麼時候可以完成這些體檢？"],["賴次長建信：這個問題分為兩個部分，針對防災韌性的部分，我們已經頒布相關規定，要求所有的開發廠商必須要提出災害防救計畫，併入災害防救計畫裡面。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這就是以前核准的時候，你們並沒有提出，而是現在碰到了這些實例，你們才提出。本席要請教目前的進度為何？"],["賴次長建信：所謂的規定已經公告了，這是第一個。第二個、針對體檢的缺失，還有一些很少數的部分還沒有完成改善，我們會持續追蹤。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你持續追蹤，預計什麼時候完成體檢？因為卓院長指示了，你預計什麼時候完成這些體檢？"],["賴次長建信：我們要求他年底前要提出來，除了提出來之外，我們還要複查，確定他所提出來的改善事項或是進行的改善事項，有沒有合乎我們的標準。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼本席要提出這個？因為民眾很憂心，到底它有沒有狀況？它有沒有毒？它要怎麼處理？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員。首先在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：您現在給本席的回答，也就是在年底以前，你們的複檢一定會完成、給國人報告，是不是如此？"],["賴次長建信：對，而且太陽能光電板是非常穩定的物質，基本上對水質不會有影響。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對本席的提問，是不是年底前你會檢查完畢，然後複檢完成、給國人報告，是不是如此？"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員發言。","請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 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主委本席針對你的簡報第10頁AI十大建設今天你要講清楚說明白你怎麼落地我從諾貝爾經濟學獎看創新驅動的發展也要求國發會明確佈局AI十大建設在高雄好 在這邊我們諾貝爾獎的啟示經濟成長要靠的是研發創新而不只是靠的是政府的支出"},{"start":39.548,"end":47.775,"text":"那今天已經宣布了AI十大建設希望透過研發矽光紙與算力建設帶動台灣在2040前創造15兆的產值這是您第十頁的簡報50萬個新就業機會隔回在9月的時候也宣布將無人載具納入了"},{"start":60.265,"end":75.317,"text":"好那這樣的一個諾貝爾獎啟示也經濟成長要靠研發創新我請國發會現在開始要評估兩件事情第一個矽光石的技術開發應該鼓勵業者在高雄"},{"start":76.077,"end":96.86,"text":"設立研發據點第二個工部門投入的預算力規劃成長有25倍應以工建計畫在高雄設立算力中心矽光子研發據點算力中心中的兩個10大AI10大建設中的這兩項就應該在高雄"},{"start":97.501,"end":115.757,"text":"那AI時代建設如何落地呢既然有這個諾貝爾獎的一個啟示再看我們的前主委劉靜清他也講了台灣的半導體產業的失宏大概是2032年就會結束最多再延10年最多再延2年2035年"},{"start":116.958,"end":131.355,"text":"好 台灣下一個十年的核心產業是什麼AI新十大建設如何落地簡單這三個字關鍵技術在Coop西光子技術重大建設在篆力中心"},{"start":131.875,"end":148.222,"text":"落腳就是在高雄好在矽光石技術在高雄的必要性兩點第一個半導體設備的國產化當然有利於晶圓製造業強化供應鏈的韌性那第二個矽光石是以光訊息代替"},{"start":149.083,"end":166.163,"text":"電訊息以光收發模組來代替金屬導線他當然有這三大特性比這個電子的還高還好是以光矽光子來取代可以有高傳輸低耗能微型化來解決未來這個"},{"start":168.765,"end":191.864,"text":"資訊中心跟數據傳輸瓶頸的關鍵技術既然它可以比我們的電子更好的情況之下投入當然是必要的了好 台積電在最新的晶片設計已經發表了COOP西光子的引擎結合晶片封裝與光學傳輸也預計他們要covers的一起的量產"},{"start":192.765,"end":215.233,"text":"好高雄市有台積電高雄市有日月光是國內二奈米跟先進封裝的重鎮所以你的矽光子的供應鏈當然就要就近資源晶圓製造的地點輔導國內所有相關法人模組的廠商檢測業者落地進駐兩個地方南子園區跟橋頭園區"},{"start":219.654,"end":240.108,"text":"好AI十大建設中的算力中心本期再講一次了高雄還是最適合的為什麼呢原因有三第一個高雄百工百業對算力的需求最大第二個高雄的人員自主力最高第三個高雄有發展的決心中央投資成本是最低的"},{"start":240.828,"end":256.397,"text":"好我們說到AI十大建設的算力中心在高雄其中最適合的第一個原因百工百業對算力的需求最大傳統產業與中小企業是高雄的經濟基礎包括農業等"},{"start":258.158,"end":285.635,"text":"那所以呢高雄的相關金屬加工製造業我們的總產值是2330億其中螺絲螺帽等扣借業的蘇美的產值是達到了四分之一多523億相關產業最需要的AI協助轉型提升產品的良率跟降低排碳所以如果你要AI的運用旗艦城市非高雄莫屬"},{"start":286.716,"end":292.345,"text":"那高雄的人員自給率最高過去發展中工業高雄的電力自給率是152.9%超過台北的1.4%超過台中的86%而且目前也積極推動屋頂光電"},{"start":302.02,"end":329.055,"text":"所以這整個光電的總備案容量已經突破了1GW超過雙倍全國最不可能缺電的城市最適合設置算率中心的就是在高雄那第三個高雄有發展的決心中央投資成本最高高雄在今年已經攜手了輝達鴻海各電信業者打造全國第一個城市級的主權AI"},{"start":330.436,"end":347.686,"text":"在高雄雅灣這個以鴻海以輝達的超級晶片的這個GB200的伺服器為核心來建置算力中心這是民間喔他們民間也預計2026年明年完工喔那中央你做了什麼事"},{"start":348.106,"end":372.777,"text":"你只有擴大投資建設公部門的算力中心鼓勵企業運用算力才能促成百工百業的轉型主委要看清楚民間已經走在前面了你有AI十大建設其中的算力中心你要公部門投入現在你要落腳在哪裡不二選擇就是在高雄"},{"start":373.317,"end":400.415,"text":"好 AI新十大建設要具體落地高雄高雄高雄無人載具跟AI都需要百工百業的垂直運用而無人載具用的控制跟操作都是仰賴人工智慧所以在高雄形成人工智慧矽光子無人機的產業鏈與產業聚落才是對國家最好的政策護國產業在高雄"},{"start":401.86,"end":420.022,"text":"我這句話再講清楚高雄市形成人工智慧矽光子無人機這三大產業鏈跟產業聚落是才是對國家最好的策略護國產業在高雄"},{"start":420.942,"end":440.181,"text":"從無人載具與軍工產業推動產業的AI化這個我就稍微提一下在10月3號對卓院長的質詢要求在高雄設立國際AI無人載具產業中心再次的在10月13號對鞏部長的質詢提出了無人機可以屏占轉換"},{"start":441.882,"end":466.298,"text":"的一個這樣的論點以及我們的無人船已經應用在AI國內的台船中信中科院榮德其實都已經在做無人船的研發高雄的旗津跟興達港是打造研發跟測試的基地這些都需要AI也就是你的算力中心這個工建工部門投資的工建"},{"start":466.838,"end":495.352,"text":"的一個設施來支援我們的這個無人載具的產業聚落結合我軍工產業無人機無人艇這個無人船的落腳在高雄的一個支援的很重要的工建的設施好這邊具體要求了請國發會檢討AI新十大建設的推動方向嚴禮南部各縣市落地的計畫與施政並在一個月內提供第二個請國發會"},{"start":497.513,"end":518.798,"text":"規劃高雄設置矽光子產業開發平台及算力中心來接軌二奈米跟先進封裝的量產趨速加速推動半導體設備的自主國產化好來主委請回答題目很簡單AI十大建設當中的兩大建設矽光子的一個這個開發平台"},{"start":524.019,"end":545.829,"text":"第二個算率中心那就是在高雄請具體回應好謝謝委員那我就這兩個委員關心的議題回應委員就是說在矽光子這個部分的話我目前就是說經濟部正在討論那經濟部原則上來講會傾向就是說在矽光子這個部分的開發可能會在高雄這個部分那非常好"},{"start":547.106,"end":568.844,"text":"再講一次經濟部的矽光子的平台目前規劃在高雄是嗎在規劃在哪裡在規劃在高雄好OK好那繼續對那另外一個就算力這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說在公部門這一塊的話因為行政院已經"},{"start":572.455,"end":593.131,"text":"定就是說沙倫是新建的AI算力中心但這個部分在高雄這部分我們再跟那個國科會再商量一下看有沒有那一個一些可能這樣子然後另外一個這是公部門私部門這個部分來講的話鴻海就好像剛剛委員的那個簡報也有提到鴻海會在高雄建立所謂的算力算力中心那另外就是說"},{"start":594.412,"end":620.222,"text":"高雄的那個算力中心我們可能正在研議說是不是納入AI新時代建設所以你想這是另外一個我講了你雖然說沙崙在現在目前工部門的放在這個沙崙那你現在在高雄的你要研發什麼你要在算力中心你要做什麼規劃算力中心的話就私部門這一塊會在那個高雄什麼叫做私部門鴻海那他做就好啦不需要你花什麼錢啊"},{"start":621.598,"end":636.8,"text":"他自己花錢 本席要求我已經講得很明了如果你的我的這個無人載具產業中心是在這是經濟部在做研議他現在在做研議你的無人載具AI中心是在落腳在高雄無人機無人艇"},{"start":639.102,"end":654.989,"text":"這樣的一個的軍工產業要在接軌台美的軍工產業鏈當中當然這個持足都是要算力中心的資源所以你在沙崙我沒有意見你沒有在一個直接在高雄資源的話"},{"start":655.649,"end":674.848,"text":"那你不可能有能夠撐起在整個全國在台美的軍工產業當中無人機無人艇的一個落實聚落在高雄所以你很明顯高雄是比台南更有產業聚落的你不要再重蹈加疫無人機的錯誤"},{"start":676.59,"end":695.882,"text":"有水有電還有什麼有聚酪如果說你的算力中心要有水有電有聚酪這個聚酪很明顯未來的這個無人載具軍工產業無人機無人艇在高雄的話你沒有一個工建的部門你都要刻意的回答給我們支援這樣說的說得對"},{"start":697.723,"end":709.046,"text":"一個國家級的無人載具中心然後呢你說你的無人算地中心是在靠個揮打然後你有十大建設50億然後呢這個東西呢高雄就不需要那你覺得講得過去嗎 研議一下好嗎一個月內提出來好嗎好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":122,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時31分）我們請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["林委員岱樺：主委，本席針對你的簡報第10頁AI十大建設，今天你要講清楚、說明白你怎麼落地，我從諾貝爾經濟學獎看到創新驅動的發展，也要求國發會明確布局AI十大建設在高雄，我們從諾貝爾獎的啟示知道，經濟成長靠的是研發創新，而不只是靠政府支出。","今天已經宣布了AI十大建設，希望透過研發矽光子與算力建設，帶動臺灣在2040年前創造15兆的產值，這是您第10頁的簡報，50萬個新就業機會。卓揆在9月的時候，也宣布將無人載具納入了。","這樣的諾貝爾獎啟示，經濟成長要靠研發創新，我請國發會現在開始要評估兩件事情，第一個，矽光子的技術開發應該鼓勵業者在高雄設立研發據點；第二個，公部門投入算力規劃成長25倍應以公建計畫在高雄設立算力中心。AI十大建設中的這兩項（矽光子研發據點、算力中心）就應該在高雄，那AI十大建設如何落地呢？既然有諾貝爾獎的啟示，再看我們的前主委劉鏡清，他也講了臺灣半導體產業「吃紅」大概2032年就會結束，最多再延2年至2035年。臺灣下一個10年的核心產業是什麼？「AI新十大建設」如何落地？簡單講就這三件事，關鍵技術在「COUPE矽光子技術」、重大建設「算力中心」、落腳在高雄。","矽光子技術在高雄的必要性有兩點，第一個，半導體設備的國產化，當然有利晶圓製造業強化供應鏈的韌性；第二個，矽光子是以光訊息代替電訊號，以光收發模組代替金屬導線，它有這三大特性，比電子的還好，是以矽光子來取代，可以有高傳輸、低耗能、微型化來解決未來資訊中心跟數據傳輸瓶頸的關鍵技術，既然它可以比我們的電子更好的情況之下，投入當然是必要的啦！","台積電在最新的晶片設計上，已經發表了「COUPE矽光子引擎」，結合晶片封裝與光學傳輸，也預計他們要結合CoWoS一起量產。高雄市有台積電、高雄市有日月光，是國內2奈米跟先進封裝的重鎮，所以矽光子的供應鏈，當然就要就近支援晶圓製造的地點，輔導國內所有相關法人、模組的廠商、檢測業者落地，進駐兩個地方：楠梓園區跟橋頭園區。","AI十大建設中的算力中心，本席再講一次，高雄還是最適合的，為什麼呢？原因有三，第一個，高雄百工百業對算力的需求最大；第二個，高雄的人員自給率最高；第三個高雄有發展的決心，中央投資成本是最低的。","我們說到AI十大建設的算力中心在高雄，其中最適合的第一個原因，百工百業對算力的需求最大！傳統產業與中小企業是高雄的經濟基礎，包括農業等，所以高雄相關金屬加工製造業，我們的總產值是2,330億，其中螺絲、螺帽等扣件業輸美產值達到了四分之一之多，523億，相關產業最需要的AI協助轉型，提升產品的良率跟降低排碳，所以如果你要AI的運用旗艦城市非高雄莫屬。","高雄的能源自給率最高！過去發展重工業，高雄的電力自給率是152.9%，超過臺北的1.4%，超過臺中的86%，而且目前也積極推動屋頂光電，整個光電總備案容量已經突破了1GW，超過雙北，是全國最不可能缺電的城市，最適合設置算力中心就是在高雄。","第三個，高雄有發展決心，中央投資成本最低！高雄在今年已經攜手了輝達、鴻海、各電信業者，打造全國第一個城市級的主權AI。在高雄亞灣，鴻海以輝達超級晶片GB200伺服器為核心建置算力中心，這是民間喔！民間預計2026年完工，那中央你做了什麼事？你只有擴大投資建置公部門算力中心，鼓勵企業運用算力，才能促成百工百業的轉型。","主委要看清楚，民間已經走在前面了，你有AI十大建設，其中的算力中心，你要公部門投入，現在你要落腳在哪裡？不二選擇就是在高雄。AI新十大建設要具體落地：高雄！高雄！高雄！無人載具跟AI都需要百工百業的垂直運用，而無人載具用的控制跟操作都是仰賴人工智慧，所以在高雄形成人工智慧、矽光子、無人機的產業鏈與產業聚落，才是對國家最好的政策。護國產業在高雄，我這句話再講清楚一點，高雄是形成人工智慧、矽光子、無人機，這三大產業鏈跟產業聚落，才是對國家最好的策略，護國產業在高雄。","從無人載具與軍工產業推動產業的AI化，這個我稍微提一下，在10月3號對卓院長的質詢，要求在高雄設國際AI無人載具產業中心，我再次在10月13號對龔部長的質詢，提出了無人機可以平戰轉換這樣的論點，以及我們的無人船已經應用在AI，國內的台船、中信、中科院、龍德，其實都已經在做無人船的研發，高雄的旗津跟興達港是打造研發跟測試的基地，這些都需要AI，也就是你的算力中心這個公部門投資公建的一個設施，來支援我們無人載具的產業聚落，結合我軍工產業、無人機、無人艇、無人船落腳在高雄一個很重要公建的設施。","這邊具體要求，請國發會檢討AI新十大建設的推動方向，研擬在南部各縣市落地的計畫、時程，並在一個月內提供。第二個，請國發會規劃高雄，設置「矽光子產業開發平臺」及算力中心來接軌2奈米跟先進封裝的量產趨勢，加速推動半導體設備的自主國產化。主委請回答，題目很簡單，AI十大建設當中的兩大建設，矽光子的開發平臺，第二個是算力中心，就是在高雄，請具體回應。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。那我就這兩個委員關心的議題回應委員，在矽光子這個部分的話，目前經濟部正在討論，經濟部原則上來講會傾向矽光子這個部分的開發可能會在高雄。"],["林委員岱樺：那非常好，再講一次，經濟部的矽光子的平臺，目前規劃在高雄是嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在規劃。"],["林委員岱樺：在規劃？在哪裡？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：規劃在高雄。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK，那繼續。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：那另外一個就算力這個部分，跟委員報告一下，在公部門這一塊的話，因為行政院已經定在沙崙新建AI算力中心，但這個在高雄的部分，我們再跟國科會商量一下，看有沒有一些可能，這是公部門。私部門這個部分來講的話，鴻海，就好像剛剛委員的簡報也有提到，鴻海會在高雄建立所謂的算力中心。另外，高雄的算力中心，我們正在研議是不是納入AI新十大建設當中。"],["林委員岱樺：這是另外一個，雖然沙崙現在目前……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：公部門的。"],["林委員岱樺：是公部門的放在沙崙，那現在在高雄的，你要研發什麼？算力中心你要做什麼規劃？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：算力中心的話，就私部門這一塊，會在高雄……"],["林委員岱樺：什麼叫做私部門？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：鴻海、鴻海。"],["林委員岱樺：那他做就好了，不需要你花什麼錢，他自己花錢。本席要求，我已經講得很明了，如果你的無人載具產業中心，這是經濟部在做研議，他現在在做研議，你的無人載具、AI中心是落腳在高雄，無人機、無人艇這樣的一個軍工產業，在接軌臺美的軍工產業鏈當中，當然這個十足都需要算力中心的資源，所以你在沙崙我沒有意見，但你沒有再一個直接在高雄支援的話，那你不可能撐起臺美軍工產業當中無人機及無人艇的落實、聚落在高雄，所以很明顯，高雄是比臺南更有產業聚落的，你不要再重蹈嘉義無人機的錯誤，有水、有電，還有什麼？有聚落，如果說你的算力中心要有水、有電、有聚落，這個聚落很明顯，未來的無人載具、軍工產業、無人機、無人艇在高雄的話，你沒有一個公建的部門，你步步都要靠輝達支援我們，這樣是對的嗎？一個國家級的無人載具中心……"],["主席：好，那我們再請……"],["林委員岱樺：然後你說你的無人算力中心是靠輝達，然後你有十大建設50億，然後這個東西高雄就不需要，那你覺得講得過去嗎？研議一下好嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，我們會跟……"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["林委員岱樺：在一個月內提出來好嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：就照委員說的，一個月內將書面資料跟委員來討論，謝謝，"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請邱議瑩委員，請做答詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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在問公教年金是否停侃的問題之前我想先問一個看起來不是全序部主管但事實上和年金停侃有絕對相關的問題我想請問全序部 以限制來說勞保何時會破產 基金何時會歸零"},{"start":40.729,"end":69.827,"text":"勞保部我沒有研究不知道你當然不知道啦 我告訴你啦我告訴你答案好不好我告訴你答案啦勞保不會破產基金也不會歸零啦你知道為什麼嗎市長你知道為什麼嗎你不知道啊 我告訴你啊因為政府已經公開保證會對勞保負起最終支付責任我們的前勞動部長還說撥補就是改革撥補是不是改革 請問市長"},{"start":74.376,"end":87.517,"text":"撥補列為改革 這個當然可以有很多不同的面向來問你的面向 全序部的面向撥補是不是改革應該是這樣講 撥補也是增加我們基金來源的一部分"},{"start":89.08,"end":105.073,"text":"來來來我跟你講勞保不斷虧損你知道為了穩定勞保財務政府從民國109年開始透過總預算跟特別條例來撥補7年來撥補勞保基金多少錢來穩定勞保基金的水位"},{"start":106.038,"end":134.352,"text":"你還是不知道對啊 5170億而且撥補的金額越來越大109年200億逐年跳增113年1200億今年1200億115年也是1200億好 我就要回頭來問年金停侃的問題啊權敘部反對停侃年金嘛 對不對所得替代率嘛 對不對最主要理由是什麼一個啦 我直接講啦"},{"start":135.273,"end":164.471,"text":"不繼續砍下去不把軍工叫砍死基金會提前歸零是不是應該這樣講就是說如果我們停止那個那個那個往下所得價降我們基金大概會未來到118年大概我們會減少收入大概提前多少提前多久歸零你們講的兩千七百多億兩年嘛對不對接近到四年一二九年左右兩年到四年嘛對不對所以來啊"},{"start":165.646,"end":185.154,"text":"我支持政府對勞保承諾最終支付責任我也支持政府對勞保撥補但我想問你三個為什麼為什麼勞保政府可以撥補公教年金停侃政府就不能撥補為什麼勞保可以撥補公教年金停侃政府不能撥補"},{"start":186.328,"end":215.53,"text":"我們也都有在爭取撥補啊非常好啊 你好好爭取嘛那你主張什麼停砍年金 不反對 為什麼反對你爭取好撥補就不用反對啦你說剛說的喔 你說在爭取撥補啊我也請我們今天偉大民進黨政府啊全區部都說要撥補啊 趕快撥補還在找藉口說停砍年金 不可以第二個 為什麼勞保政府可以保證最終支付責任公教年金停砍 政府就不能保證最終支付責任"},{"start":216.704,"end":242.925,"text":"可不可以保證最終自負責任 請我們目前法律上就是這樣規定 非常好既然這樣子的話 你還跟我講破產歸零還在威脅大家發不出退休金但是你那個最後就要全部大家一起來 你的邏輯你自己都不要整理一下邏輯根本錯亂嘛來 那為什麼我們政府保證勞保不會破產 你剛才也講啦不會破產嘛 對不對"},{"start":244.244,"end":271.122,"text":"我們的公教年金不會破產嗎不會破產啊你剛剛都講可以撥補啊負最終自負責任啊那怕什麼破產還是要修正一下沒有喔 並沒有喔我跟你講 次長今天是我質詢全序部啊我最滿意的一天你第一個告訴我說可以撥補我謝謝你 你在爭取撥補我請那無良的民進黨聽進次長這句話爭取撥補"},{"start":274.471,"end":299.474,"text":"那你說 就是政府會付最終支付責任啊你撥補完 你就不用擔心破產問題啊有沒有歸零的問題啊跟淘寶基金一樣啊我直接告訴你啦市長 你還有同理心啦可是我們的民進黨政府賴清德總統就是瞧不起軍人瞧不起公教 瞧不起警消就是要欺負軍人 欺負公教 欺負警消"},{"start":301.4,"end":319.057,"text":"國民黨跟羅志強跟我們翁小林主席我們一路的挺軍人挺公教挺警消但我很難過看著一個政府賴清德民進黨一路的踩軍人踩公教踩警消這我最難過的事情我都還沒講台電撥補"},{"start":320.919,"end":328.706,"text":"為了要讓綠油油賺大錢對不對錯誤的能源政策搞得今天台電虧損連連撥補3000億都不夠虧損還有將近5000億阿你怎麼不說台電會打"},{"start":334.226,"end":358.937,"text":"因為綠油有中藥嘛所以直接拿軍公教開刀就是現在民進黨政府的做法最後我要跟你講啦我們的公教人員也沒有多麼了不起奢侈的要求他要求不過是停砍有要求回到2018年嗎 有嗎 有沒有我們的年金提案有要求回到2018年嗎 有沒有沒有嘛從一開始砍5% 接下來逐年1.5%請問現在已經砍多少了"},{"start":361.605,"end":366.87,"text":"從今年應該是到68.5累積起來砍多少了累積起來大概剩68嘛 對不對對 68.5我告訴你啊 次長"},{"start":373.206,"end":391.272,"text":"現在軍公教 我們的公教人員你把他血跟肉都砍光了他今天也不是沒有體諒到今天國家財政問題他只是卑微的請求你骨跟筋不要斷掉它嘛這才是今天為什麼要提出停砍年金我還沒講後面 最後很快結論我們的"},{"start":394.535,"end":421.446,"text":"軍工教是我們經濟發展國家安全跟社會穩定的最大基石現在你也知道老師找不到以前老師搶破頭但老師找不到公務人員報考人數可以從52萬直接掉到16萬少了七成你沒有辦法吸引好的人才請問怎麼去支撐政府的運作所以拜託高台貴手今天我也很開心今天市長告訴大家你會爭取撥補"},{"start":423.107,"end":432.515,"text":"就好好爭取波姆不要再阻攔停坦年金的一個我們的這個改革了拜託留給我們的軍公教留給我們公教人員一條生路謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時43分）主席好。有請銓敘部。"],["主席：有請懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：次長好。在問公教年金是否停砍的問題之前，我想先問一個看起來不是銓敘部主管，但事實上跟年金停砍有絕對相關的問題。我想請問銓敘部，以現制來說，勞保何時會破產？基金何時會歸零？"],["懷次長敍：勞保部分我沒有研究，我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：你當然不知道，我告訴你答案，勞保不會破產，基金也不會歸零，你知道為什麼嗎？次長，你知道為什麼嗎？你不知道？我告訴你，因為政府已經公開保證，會對勞保負起最終支付責任。前勞動部長還說，撥補就是改革。請問次長，撥補是不是改革？請問次長。"],["懷次長敍：撥補列為改革，這個當然可以有很多不同的面向來看……"],["羅委員智強：什麼叫不同的面向？我問你的面向，銓敘部的面向，撥補是不是改革？"],["懷次長敍：應該是這樣講，撥補也是增加基金來源的一部分。"],["羅委員智強：不敢面對啦！我跟你講，勞保不斷虧損，你知道為了穩定勞保財務，政府從民國109年開始透過總預算跟特別條例來撥補，7年來撥補勞保基金多少錢，來穩定勞保基金的水位？你還是不知道？"],["懷次長敍：我看新聞好像幾千億的樣子。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！5,170億，而且撥補的金額越來越大，109年200億，逐年跳增，113年1,200億，今年1,200億，115年也是1,200億。好，我就要回頭來問年金停砍的問題，銓敘部反對停砍年金，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["羅委員智強：所得替代率嘛！對不對？最主要的理由是什麼？一個啦！我直接講啦，不繼續砍下去，不把軍公教砍死，基金會提前歸零，是不是？"],["懷次長敍：應該這樣講，如果我們停止所得替代率往下降，基金未來到118年會減少收入大概……"],["羅委員智強：提前多少？提前多久歸零？"],["懷次長敍：大概兩千七百多億。"],["羅委員智強：兩年，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：接近二到四年，129年左右。"],["羅委員智強：兩年到四年，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：對。"],["羅委員智強：所以我支持政府對勞保承諾最終支付責任，我也支持政府對勞保撥補，但我想問你3個為什麼。為什麼勞保政府可以撥補，公教年金停砍政府就不能撥補？為什麼勞保可以撥補，公教年金停砍政府不能撥補？"],["懷次長敍：我們也都有在爭取撥補啊！"],["羅委員智強：非常好，你好好爭取嘛！那你主張什麼停砍年金，反對，為什麼反對？你爭取好撥補就不用反對啊！你剛剛說的，你說在爭取撥補，銓敘部都說要撥補，我也請偉大的民進黨政府趕快撥補！還在找藉口說不可以停砍年金。第二個，為什麼勞保政府可以保證最終支付責任，公教年金停砍政府就不能保證最終支付責任？可不可以保證最終支付責任？請我們……"],["懷次長敍：目前法律上就是這樣規定。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，既然這樣子的話，你還跟我講破產歸零，還在威脅大家發不出退休金。"],["懷次長敍：但是你那個最後就要全部大家一起來……"],["羅委員智強：你的邏輯你自己都不要整理一下，邏輯根本錯亂嘛！那為什麼政府保證勞保不會破產？你剛才也講了，不會破產，對不對？我們的公教年金不會破產，不會破產啊！你剛剛講可以撥補，負最終支付責任啊！要怕什麼破產？還是要修正一下，沒有，並沒有。"],["懷次長敍：我們是說基金歸零，但是……"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，次長，今天是我質詢銓敘部，我最滿意的一天。你第一個告訴我說可以撥補，謝謝你，你在爭取撥補。我請無良的民進黨聽進次長這句話，爭取撥補。那你也說就是政府會負最終支付責任啊！你撥補完就不用擔心破產問題，也沒有歸零的問題啊！跟勞保基金一樣啊！我直接告訴你，次長還有同理心，可是民進黨政府賴清德總統就瞧不起軍人，瞧不起公教、瞧不起警消，就是要欺負軍人，欺負公教、欺負警消。國民黨跟羅智強、翁曉玲主席，我們一路在挺軍人、挺公教、挺警消。但我很難過，看著一個政府，賴清德、民進黨一路的踩軍人、踩公教、踩警消，這是我最難過的事情。我都還沒講台電撥補，為了要讓綠友友賺大錢，對不對？錯誤的能源政策，搞得今天台電虧損連連，撥補3,000億都不夠，虧損還有將近5,000億，你怎麼不說台電會倒？因為綠友友重要嘛！所以直接拿軍公教開刀就是現在民進黨政府的作法。","最後我要跟你講，公教人員也沒有多麼了不起奢侈的要求，他的要求不過是停砍，有要求回到2018年嗎？有嗎？有沒有？我們的年金提案有要求回到2018年嗎？有沒有？"],["懷次長敍：草案上是沒有。"],["羅委員智強：沒有嘛！從一開始砍5%，接下來逐年1.5%，請問現在已經砍多少了？"],["懷次長敍：從今年應該是到68.5。"],["羅委員智強：累積起來砍多少了？"],["懷次長敍：累積起來大概……"],["羅委員智強：剩68，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：對，68.5。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啊！次長，你把軍公教人員的血跟肉都砍光了，他今天也不是沒有體諒到國家的財政問題，只是卑微的請求你，骨跟筋不要斷掉嘛！這才是今天為什麼要提出停砍年金，我還沒講後面，最後很快做個結論。","軍公教是我們的經濟發展、國家安全跟社會穩定的最大基石。現在你也知道老師找不到，以前老師搶破頭，現在老師找不到，公務人員報考人數可以從52萬直接掉到16萬，少了7成。你沒有辦法吸引好的人才，請問怎麼支撐政府的運作？拜託高抬貴手，今天我也很開心，次長告訴大家會爭取撥補，就好好爭取撥補，不要再阻攔我們停砍年金的改革了，拜託留給軍公教人員一條生路，謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b2fb599bae9a180876d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d2b79a220842b8dbde5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:35:12 - 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有請教育部的長官 權序部的長官兩位次長 還有人事行政總署的張副總人事長好不好 三位長官兩位次長 還有副人事長因為我時間很短 所以我只有一個問題就是教育部的長官要不要跟我們講一下現在已經砍了七年了吧"},{"start":32.422,"end":60.963,"text":"這個stop here而且現在來講的話我們一直講國民所的瓦占都瓦占你照顧等於說這個政府現在很奇怪照顧全部除了要公教人員就公教人員手不軟這個我們可以想一想喔你可以想一想喔原來我們普發現金一萬的時候行政院都印了不發執政黨團不發到後來通通要了"},{"start":62.659,"end":81.737,"text":"以現在來講的話你清楚看得到我剛才在提案說明我就講了我就講了到現在為止如果加上明年度的話加上明年度我們給勞保的撥補有5000億左右請問交易部的市場我們年金"},{"start":83.6,"end":109.697,"text":"這個公立大學的公立學校的教職員到今年底這樣子可以要砍多少下來砍多少下來不是 金額 全部金額金額 對 對 節省多少你都不知道啊 你都不知道在這裡要講啊省多少嘛 省多少錢嘛省多少"},{"start":112.406,"end":122.053,"text":"省多少不只133千例左右了多少從開始107年到現在107到現在已經回補一柱1321不是有3000例嗎"},{"start":129.116,"end":155.496,"text":"教育人員的部分是一三二一一三二一教育人員一三二一就砍了一三二一嘛 對不對那難道你不站在教育人員的一個角度上這個未來可不可以不要砍了就這麼簡單一個訴求我們多少委員提案就這樣子STEP HERE 七年呢他原來是十年嘛 對不對我們就少三年 物價上升其他的所得其他的都一直漲"},{"start":156.824,"end":170.573,"text":"這是一個訴求這個教育部照理講應該替教育人員講話對不對結果我們看到其他的部會都是替他們部會相關人員講話獨獨教育部也不敢講也不知道為什麼你要不要講一下"},{"start":174.713,"end":191.378,"text":"跟委員會報告 因為維持現行規定應該是相對限職跟退休人員是一個比較永續的做法什麼叫永續 你們說如果這樣子的話會提早破產三到四年 請問那是民國幾年的事情"},{"start":192.418,"end":210.245,"text":"民國幾年會破產 129129現在多少 11415年以後的事情我們很多人不知道15年以後還在不在咧你要考慮15年以後的事情這個東西我覺得這個東西太抽象太空泛而且非常不實際的現在來講你看那個潛艦幾百億"},{"start":215.85,"end":234.04,"text":"這個潛艦快變成這個爛尾艦一樣 這樣子清 這樣子炸 這樣子花七年來如果你是一億三多一年就兩百億左右一年差不多兩百億左右 對不對兩百億可以不可以就不要再砍了就是這樣而已啊那你用其他的什麼理由說啊 這個是永續啦是什麼之類的"},{"start":235.14,"end":259.843,"text":"我覺得 沒有說服力啦沒有說服力 你們的報告裡面也寫啦你現在寫啦 說現在平均他的所得是5.8高於主計總書公佈的這個經常性薪資4.6那是去年喔 今年不止 今年5萬多囉今年已經5萬多囉已經5萬多 你要不要調整今年已經5萬多了"},{"start":262.654,"end":281.315,"text":"今年已經五萬多了不是四萬多當然他中位數沒有這麼高啦但是平均數已經是五萬多了接近你這個了所以我們的訴求其實就是苦民所苦啦你對陳建仁那時候是負責的年金整個改革總負責人總舵手他講的"},{"start":282.899,"end":309.3,"text":"軍公教 勞 一起改結果勞到現在為止完全沒有改勞就是一直補 一直補補到明年的預算加起來五千億教咧你要繼續砍這不通啊整個不通啊這個賴清德總統都說台灣現在經濟成長 瓦占度瓦占GDP成長多少多少要全民共享為什麼退休人員你就"},{"start":310.475,"end":323.007,"text":"沒辦法就給他照顧一下好 第二個問題就是那我們現在講的說以前是四年調整一次可以不可以改成兩年調整一次你們的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":324.153,"end":345.791,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前的規定是只要正負5%CPI但是如果要調整的話事實上可能還要也要兼顧到限值的跟限值的一個差異跟橫貧的部分啦以及目前的像陸委員講的目前平均上來講已經是5.8%85%是在五萬塊"},{"start":348.814,"end":349.955,"text":"這個問題是這個平均薪資已經五萬多了已經五萬多了換句話說現在的"},{"start":358.344,"end":381.197,"text":"這個叫啊叫的人員啊他已經是很辛苦了啦已經到樓地板了啦不要再砍了啦就這樣子一個很簡單的訴求嘛然後這個未來要隨著隨著軍工就要調整他可以調整吧你們同意再調整吧我們現在是依照CPI增幅5%跟每4年調事實上從年改到現在已經調過兩次6%了幾年調6%"},{"start":387.51,"end":401.309,"text":"對嘛 就七年調六趴一年一趴嘛所以我才講說那乾脆我們就兩年 然後三趴就這個意思啦好 時間到了 時間很短了所以我就不多講了就是告訴各位就告訴大家"},{"start":402.27,"end":421.76,"text":"我們政府對勞保是這樣對軍工特別是公教是另外一個嘴臉完全正式考量這可怕的地方在這裡我覺得你現在今天在這裡回答你也不敢回答你這個都是造本宣科反正這個樣子反正我們立法院來改嘛因為民眾黨跟我們合起來民眾黨的"},{"start":423.021,"end":436.282,"text":"他只是一個堅持我聽到的是說不是回到原來的我們是說stop here不要繼續看我覺得你們應該好好去認真思考這個問題好 謝謝好 謝謝大委員知道好 謝謝大委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":901,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時35分）謝謝主席。有請教育部的長官、銓敘部的長官，有兩位次長，還有人事行政總處的張副人事長，共三位長官。"],["主席：請兩位次長及副人事長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：因為我時間很短，所以我只有一個問題，教育部的長官要不要跟我們講一下，現在已經砍七年了吧？Stop here！而且現在來講，我們一直講國民所得有多好又多好，這個政府現在很奇怪，照顧全部，除了公教人員，對公教人員手不軟啦！你可以想一想！原來我們主張普發現金一萬的時候，行政院多硬啊！不發！執政黨團不發！到後來統統要了。以現在來講，你清楚看得到，我剛才在提案說明時就講了，到現在為止，如果加上明年度的話，我們給勞保的撥補有5,000億左右。請問教育部次長，公立學校的教職員到今年底會砍多少下來？"],["朱次長俊彰：委員是講替代率的比例還是……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，是全部金額，節省多少？你都不知道啊！你都不知道還在這裡，要講啊！省多少錢嘛？省多少？"],["朱次長俊彰：13……"],["賴委員士葆：不止13啦！3,000億左右啦！多少？從107年開始到現在。"],["朱次長俊彰：從107年到現在已經回補1321。"],["賴委員士葆：不是有3,000億嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：教育人員的部分是1321。"],["賴委員士葆：1321是教育人員，只有砍了1321，對不對？難道你不站在教育人員的角度上？這個未來可不可以不要砍了？就這麼簡單一個訴求而已，多少委員提案就這樣子，stop here！七年了，它原來是十年，我們就少三年，物價上升，其他的所得、其他的都一直漲，這是一個訴求。照理講，教育部應該替教育人員講話，對不對？結果我們看到其他部會都是替他們部會相關人員講話，獨獨教育部不敢講，也不知道為什麼，你要不要講一下？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，因為維持現行規定，應該相對現職跟退休人員是一個比較永續的作法。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫永續？你們說如果這樣子的話，會提早破產3到4年，請問那是民國幾年的事情？民國幾年會破產？"],["朱次長俊彰：129年。"],["賴委員士葆：129，現在多少？114年，那是15年以後的事情，很多人不知道15年後還在不在，你要考慮15年以後的事情，我覺得這個東西太抽象、太空泛，而且非常不實際，現在來講，你看潛艦幾百億，潛艦都快要變成爛尾艦了，錢一樣砸、這樣子花，七年來，如果你是113多，一年差不多200億左右，對不對？200億可不可以就不要再砍了？就這樣而已，你用其他的什麼理由說，這個是永續還是什麼之類的，我覺得沒有說服力，物價一直漲。你們的報告裡面也寫了，現在平均所得是5.8，高於主計總處公布的經常性薪資4.6，但那是去年，今年不只，今年五萬多了！今年已經五萬多了！已經五萬多，你要不要調整？今年已經五萬多了，不是四萬多，當然它的中位數沒有這麼高，但是平均數已經是五萬多了，接近你這個。","我們的訴求其實就是苦民所苦，陳建仁那時候是年金改革的總負責人、總舵手，他講的，軍公教勞一起改。結果勞到現在為止完全沒有改，勞就是一直補、一直補，補到明年的預算加起來5,000億，教呢？你要繼續砍，這不通啊！整個不通啊！賴清德總統都說，臺灣現在經濟成長有多好又多好，GDP成長多少又多少，要全民共享，為什麼退休人員就沒辦法照顧一下？","第二個問題，我們現在講的，以前是四年調整一次，可不可以改成兩年調整一次，你們的看法怎麼樣？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，因為目前的規定是只要CPI正負百分之五……"],["賴委員士葆：現在是百分之五，我們要改成百分之三啦！"],["朱次長俊彰：但是如果要調整的話，可能也要兼顧到跟現值的差異跟衡平，誠如委員講的，目前平均已經是5.8，百分之八十五是在5萬塊以上……"],["賴委員士葆：我的問題是，平均薪資已經五萬多了，換句話說，現在「教」的人員已經是很辛苦了，已經到樓地板了，不要再砍了啦！就這樣子一個很簡單的訴求，然後未來要隨著軍公教調整，可以調整吧？你們同意來調整嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：我們現在是依照CPI正負百分之五跟每四年調整一次，事實上從年改到現在已經調過兩次、6%了。"],["賴委員士葆：幾年調6%？"],["朱次長俊彰：從107年。"],["賴委員士葆：對，七年調6%，就是一年1%嘛！所以我才說，那乾脆兩年3%，就是這個意思啦！","因為我的時間到，時間很短，所以我就不多講了，就是告訴各位、告訴大家，政府對勞保是這樣，對軍公，特別是公教，是另外一個嘴臉，完全政治考量，可怕的地方在這裡。你今天在這裡，你也不敢回答，你都是照本宣科，反正就這個樣子。反正立法院來改，因為民眾黨跟我們合起來，民眾黨只是有一個堅持，我聽到的是，不是回到原來的，而是stop here，不要繼續砍，我覺得你們應該好好去認真思考這個問題，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員的提醒，也請銓敘部還有教育部，你們作為公務人員跟教育人員的主管機關，更應該要保障公教人員的權益，還有退休人員的權益。然後裡面有一些事實其實沒有講得很清楚，我們也希望你們之後能夠再把相關的細節講得更清楚。","接下來張智倫委員、張智倫委員、張智倫委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員不在。","牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員不在。","許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員不在。","吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員、吳宗憲委員不在。","傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員、傅崐萁委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","接下來有請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 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有請教育部 朱次長還有權敘部 鄭淑芬 退福斯司長還有行政院主計總署的基金預算處 謝謝好 麻煩請列席官員上台 謝謝"},{"start":33.069,"end":52.221,"text":"好 三位長官好本席其實一直以來都有在關心關於教職員或公務人員的一些權益那多年來來到立法院也經常遇到一些單位團體會來辦公室跟我們討論"},{"start":53.602,"end":78.053,"text":"那我自己曾經在上一屆就是112年的時候有參與過公務人員退休子序撫恤辦法第39條以及公立學校教職員退休資金撫恤條例第98條的修法那總統呢也公告了那之後就是說要一退撫基金財務精算的結果來分年編列預算來撥補"},{"start":79.814,"end":102.963,"text":"但是上路以來其實像以全教總來講他們其實是感到還蠻失望的所以我也有就這個部分來找三個部會一起的討論那我其實還是要講因為這個退府新制上路之後它最大的差別就是它現在不進入大水庫它是屬於個人專戶制"},{"start":103.963,"end":132.52,"text":"所以呢這個基金撥補更顯得重要那大家的擔憂也是說之前已經有年改的經驗說會破產那如果不按照這樣子做那未來是不是還會面臨二次年改這樣的一個可能性所以其實我們的第一線的公務人員也好或公教人其實他們都非常的擔憂那我在這裡呢就是想要問一下因為如果說要依法來做"},{"start":133.26,"end":162.323,"text":"退府基金委員會的第八次精算報告它是這麼寫的它是說每年至少撥補194億元要20年那權序部這邊是更細就是提到說分10年會怎麼樣分15年會怎麼樣分20年怎麼樣所以看起來最優最省最好的方案是分10年撥補因為可以減少"},{"start":163.084,"end":176.262,"text":"少花710億元那教育部的部分我倒是沒有看到但是我想先請教一下就是教育部全序部就是這個部分114年就是撥補的狀況"},{"start":178.453,"end":193.609,"text":"是跟我們報告因為根據精算確實我們需要如果是分10年是1360那如果是分20年是1660那我們現在今年的部分我們是有編的74億明年會有92億15會有92億來投入撥補那請問一下92億是分幾年"},{"start":201.007,"end":212.81,"text":"我們目前是以其實部裡面我們是希望爭取用10年但是目前是以20年的方式所以是用20年那請教一下那個全序部"},{"start":214.564,"end":239.538,"text":"這個部分因為新制上路以後我們部裡面是一直希望都是爭取用10年的撥補歷年都是用10年的撥補方案去編列概算但是因為國家有它政策支出的決定所以目前也是跟教育部一樣在今年經過核列的額度是用20年的方式來編是核定為120億"},{"start":240.999,"end":249.511,"text":"好 那聽起來就是教育部 權序部都是希望用十年好 那請教一下那個主總"},{"start":255.086,"end":276.008,"text":"因為最後也是就是整個財政最後盤點的結果那就是因為這個就是我們持續撥補那但是考量到E5的整個支付的狀況還是採用20年部分就是所以意思就是說合計的話是如果用20年"},{"start":278.248,"end":292.927,"text":"所以20年這個狀況是在明年會發生嗎20年撥補是明年的狀況嗎只是用20年這個基礎來談題後年呢這個我們還是每年在編預算會在滾動檢討那我剛才聽到的是說因為財政的問題我們財政有問題"},{"start":295.249,"end":307.915,"text":"因為最後15整個盤點最後的稅入稅出的結果部分那這部分我們先用20年的基礎來做談題那明年就是每一年的那個財政收支會不一樣那可能還是可以再做滾動的"},{"start":309.198,"end":333.543,"text":"那我再請教一下因為我們修法之後他是寫說因一退府基金財務精算結果接續分年編列預算撥補現行的退府基金是嗎我們修法是這麼寫的條文是這麼寫的所以現在是因為退府基金委員會的精算報告是說因每年至少撥補194億元達20年是按照這個嗎"},{"start":342.451,"end":371.589,"text":"這部分還是有分三種那我最後還是用20年的部分先來那請教一下後年呢這可能還要看明年籌編總預算的時候再一起考慮所以我們其實沒有辦法因為修法之後有一個固定的數字有一個固定的做法是這樣嗎修法的部分可能如果說法是明定的話那當然是依法"},{"start":372.27,"end":375.071,"text":"那現在怎麼辦 那我們未來到底該怎麼做好 那沒有關係 因為時間的關係我只是說 我們希望能夠按照精算的一個數額來撥補"},{"start":395.745,"end":417.377,"text":"因為好不容易就修法啦總統也公告啦那這個部分我是希望說這個部分因為我們有看到啦114年編列194億就是公教的部分120億教師的部分74億啦那就是才20年的撥補啦所以呢我們希望說這個撥補數遠遠的不足"},{"start":419.838,"end":437.571,"text":"那我們也希望說為了要防度未來就是因為這樣修法那就是為了要防度破產的可能避免二次年改我們還是要求說希望我們的主總能夠正視這個問題那也能夠提出一個報告可以嗎至少讓我們了解你們未來的做法好 這個"},{"start":447.593,"end":467.14,"text":"好那我回到今天排審的主席再給我一分鐘那因為我們最重要的修法重點就是要按限職人員的待遇希望能夠調升提高然後也希望按物價指數來調整所以我想要請教一下就是教育部還有組總就是對於基金的財務狀況會有沒有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":472.672,"end":490.11,"text":"確實如果說要做調整他必須還是會考慮到整個基金的一個財務的問題還有跟現值人員的差異的問題以及他是不是有一個保障合理性的問題所以這三個部分都要一併做考量"},{"start":490.39,"end":513.332,"text":"因為其實如果按照這兩個訴求像加薪3%嘛然後按著物價指數調整都是很正常的啦那重點是小小的調整大家會大大的有感啦所以我是想說就這個部分可不可以提供一個影響評估的一個書面報告就是組總跟教育部還有那個組總跟教育部可以嗎"},{"start":515.094,"end":527.601,"text":"是 委員是針對兩個部分嘛對 針對那個修法的重點可以嗎 至少我們要知道他的一個影響評估報告可以喔好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":848,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請教育部朱次長、銓敘部退撫司鄭淑芬司長、行政院主計總處基金預算處，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["主席：麻煩請列席官員上台，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：3位長官好。本席一直以來都在關心教職員或公務人員的一些權益，多年來在立法院也經常遇到一些單位團體會來辦公室跟我們討論。我自己曾經在上一屆、112年參與過公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第九十三條以及公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第九十八條的修法，總統也公告了，之後就是要依退撫基金財務精算的結果分年編列預算來撥補。","但是自上路以來，以全教總來講，他們其實是感到滿失望的，所以我也有就這個部分找3個部會一起來討論。其實我還是要講，因為這個退撫新制上路之後，最大的差別就是現在不進入大水庫，而是屬於個人專戶制的，所以基金的撥補就更顯得重要，而大家的擔憂也是，之前已經有年改的經驗，說是會破產，如果不按照這樣子做，未來是不是還是會面臨二次年改的可能性？所以不論是第一線的公務人員也好，還是公教人員，其實他們都非常擔憂。","我在這裡就是想要問一下，如果要依法來做，退撫基金委員會第8次精算報告是這麼寫的，它說每年至少撥補194億元、要20年，銓敘部則更細，就是提到分10年會怎麼樣、分15年會怎麼樣、分20年會怎麼樣，所以看起來最優、最省、最好的方案就是分10年撥補，因為可以少花710億元。至於教育部的部分，我倒是沒有看到，但是我想先請教一下教育部、銓敘部，這個部分在114年撥補的狀況。"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，因為根據精算我們確實須依……如果是分10年是1360，如果是分20年是1660，今年的部分我們是編了74億，明（115）年會有92億投入撥補。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請問一下，92億是分幾年？"],["朱次長俊彰：我們目前是以……其實部裡面是希望爭取用10年。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["朱次長俊彰：目前是以20年的方式，但是我們會……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是用20年？好，再請教一下銓敘部。"],["鄭司長淑芬：因為這個新制上路以後我們部裡面是一直希望能爭取用10年的撥補，歷年都是用10年撥補的方案去編列概算的，但是國家有政策支出的決定，所以目前也是跟教育部一樣，今年經過核列的額度是用20年的方式來編，是核定為120億。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，聽起來就是教育部、銓敘部都希望用10年。請教一下主總。"],["王專門委員前鎧：因為最後也是整個財政最後盤點的結果，我們就是持續撥補，但考量到115年整個財政支出的狀況，還是採用20年的部分……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：意思就是合計的話，如果用20年的話，這個狀況是明年會發生嗎？20年撥補是明年的狀況嗎？"],["王專門委員前鎧：沒有，只是用20年的這個基礎來攤提。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：後年呢？"],["王專門委員前鎧：這個我們還是到每年編預算時再滾動檢討，看看……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我剛才聽到說是「因為財政的問題」，是不是我們的財政有問題？"],["王專門委員前鎧：因為最後盤點整個115年歲入、歲出的結果，這部分我們先用20年的基礎來攤提，明年……就是每一年的財政收支會不一樣，可能還是可以再滾動檢討。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我再請教一下，因為我們修法之後它是寫，依退撫基金財務精算結果，分年編列預算撥補現行的退撫基金嘛！"],["王專門委員前鎧：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是嘛！我們修法是這麼寫的，條文是這麼寫的嘛！因為退撫基金委員會的精算報告是說：應每年至少撥補194億元，達20年。是按照這個嗎？"],["王專門委員前鎧：這部分還是有分三種，我們最後還是用20年的部分先來做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，請教一下那後年呢？"],["王專門委員前鎧：這可能還要看明年籌編總預算的狀況再一起考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們沒有辦法因為修法之後而有一個固定的數字、有一個固定的作法，是這樣嗎？"],["王專門委員前鎧：修法的部分，如果是法明定的，那當然是依法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那現在怎麼辦？我們未來到底該怎麼做？好，那沒有關係，因為時間的關係，我只是說我們希望能夠按照精算的數額來撥補，因為好不容易修法了，總統也公告了。這個部分因為我們有看到114年編列194億，就是公教的部分120億，教師的部分74億，採20年的撥補。我們認為這個撥補數遠遠不足，我們也希望，因為這樣修法就是為了要防杜破產的可能，避免二次年改，我們還是要求、希望主總能夠正視這個問題，也能夠提出一個報告，可以嗎？至少讓我們了解你們未來的作法。"],["王專門委員前鎧：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：回到今天排審的主題，請主席再給我1分鐘，因為我們最重要的修法重點就是要按現職人員的待遇調升而提高，也希望按物價指數來調整，所以我想要請教一下教育部還有主總，對於基金的財務狀況有沒有什麼樣的影響？"],["朱次長俊彰：確實，如果要調整，還是必須考慮到整個基金的財務問題，還有跟現職人員差異的問題，以及保障合理性的問題，所以這三個部分都要一併考量。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果按照這兩個訴求，像加薪百分之三、按照物價指數調整，都是很正常的啦！重點是小小的調整，大家會大大的有感，所以我是想，就這個部分主總跟教育部可不可以提供一個影響評估的書面報告，可以嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：是，委員是針對兩個部分嘛？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，針對修法的重點，可以嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，我們會後提供。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：至少我們要知道它的影響評估報告，可以嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳沛憶","葉元之","陳秀寳","沈發惠","謝龍介","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草\n案」案；( 二) 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謝謝主席 那有請我們新科的葉主委我們再請葉主委主委很高興你所對於國會主委的身份 印象到委員會來做業務的報告那我想國會是作為國家發展的一個重要核心的一個單位兼負責過化台灣這個未來的經濟社會區域的發展的重責大任"},{"start":31.425,"end":45.931,"text":"所以你上任的這個報告我特別給你看過我希望你可以帶來創新的思維跟新的一個氣象還有這個強力的一個協調這樣的一個整合的能力謝謝但是坦白講你的議會報告好像還有一些進步的空間國會的預測報告是說114名間投資實質成長將近10%等同快將近6兆然後但民間的這個實質成長卻不到1%"},{"start":57.574,"end":75.753,"text":"我要這邊請問主委國家投資這麼大的金額怎麼消費數字會這麼低這是我代表著整個經濟成果成長的果實根本分配不均然後也凸顯到這個薪資的停滯中產階級的焦慮甚至以這個貧富的差距擴大的系統性問題"},{"start":76.857,"end":101.528,"text":"因為這個部分就是我們國人非常喜歡出國旅遊啦尤其去日本所以有一些當然在整個國民會計所得上來講的話它會有一個抵銷效果但是有一個很大的差別在國內消費跟國外消費的話它那個整個乘數效果就不會出來就是說我們在台灣花一塊錢跟在日本花一塊錢對台灣的經濟貢獻其實是有差異性的但是在國民所得上上面來講它會消掉"},{"start":102.335,"end":130.515,"text":"但是怎麼跟你的報告不一樣你們是原本在主計總數是在今年5月28號的發布嘛114年間的民間消費成長預估還有1.36%那短短不到5個月你們的報告又再度下修到剩下0.85%跟委員報告就是因為關稅那個不確定性使得有一些耐久性的消費財其實有下降情況跟出國應該沒有直接關係吧到底是關稅到底是哪一個"},{"start":131.595,"end":147.546,"text":"出國那一個部分的話也會是一部分所以這個大的差異性的話會哪一個部分比較大就是那一個關稅那一個部分關稅比較大但是你們自己的報告消費疲軟歸就於上半年股市交易量能縮減"},{"start":150.57,"end":178.444,"text":"114年的上半年的股市量有縮減嗎然後影響財務效果以及民眾觀望汽車建廣關稅遞延購車沒有應該是未來的我們一整年未來一整年對那到底是什麼主要的因素戰而讓我們的這樣的消費指數成長率在下降我現在跟你講整個年度嘛對不對對啊你的報告裡面是在講整個年度嘛對啊"},{"start":180.114,"end":203.19,"text":"那你現在跟我講下半年會比較好下半年的那一個部分的話會因為就是說我們有那個發那個現金1萬塊對所以你們今天的報告是有把1萬塊納入在你們的消費指數裡面嗎有的成長率裡面嗎有那如果有還下降呢原本是預估1.36嘛現在是下降0.85嘛"},{"start":207.176,"end":235.155,"text":"5月28號的數字是太早的預估怎麼叫做太早預估因為現在已經8月了請按下去有有有按下去對對對所以5月到8月那個其實狀況算差蠻大因為因為一般來講像主計處5像中紀院的話5月在估的時候他剛剛答案是太早預估那你現在已經把1萬塊也預估在5到8月之間然後還下降了"},{"start":236.982,"end":245.483,"text":"那是下半年的啦下半年的這一塊啦你今年度114年度你們的預估消費指數的成長是多少嗎"},{"start":247.969,"end":262.936,"text":"你跟我講114年你們的預估全年度的消費成長數指數是多少委員你這個PPT上面那個114年是第一劑是1.36我知道他讓你寫第一劑沒有錯你第一劑然後我現在請教你是114年度對一整年"},{"start":269.369,"end":291.804,"text":"就是說你第一季是1.36 你到第二季就下修了嘛 對不對你到第三季一樣又下修嘛對 因為汽車的進口關稅的因素延遲了民間的消費汽車的一個進口對不對 延遲消費然後加上國人都在國外消費再加上國人都在國外消費然後可是第四季我們全年預估現在主季總數是逾零點"},{"start":294.807,"end":302.641,"text":"明年八五沒有放到消費券這些主委剛剛打呼我有放進去明年預估明年的預估"},{"start":304.229,"end":333.565,"text":"明年的預估我現在跟你一直討論是今年的預估主委講的是說今年會超過主計總數的5.45是因為原因是有消費券的就是重慶苑的估計5.45是有包括那個消費券一萬塊的但主計不是沒有清清楚楚的把你們的預估為什麼會下修然後到最後一季你說還會再往上調整一些嘛對不對把相關的因素全部給我們做個參考這是第一件事情嘛"},{"start":334.085,"end":362.33,"text":"那第二件事情我要特別拜託主委啦你剛來齁 我覺得有些事情可以來到協調齁 到承擔齁就是我在去年在114年6月11號的時候在總諮詢特別跟當時的院長還有那時候的國部長特別有建議AI人才培訓基地首度可以考慮到雲林因為雲林有一個這個國科會中部科學管理局的湖北園區然後還有相關的這些"},{"start":363.13,"end":376.078,"text":"跟整個AI的中下游的產業鏈然後最近的就是虎哥大已經有跟無人機AI雙核心的這樣的課程已經在推動了"},{"start":377.827,"end":394.321,"text":"那現在有一個環球它的舊值有將近30公頃然後還有12棟的校舍那經濟部顯然到現在好像一直規劃不出來這當然是有承諾而且要往下推的然後他們說報國安會好像"},{"start":395.001,"end":409.638,"text":"意見寥寥啦齁我希望竹圍展現新的一個這樣的一個氣象啦一個魄力這個地方不需要再這麼多花費的任何費用然後有這麼多可以來利用的這個校舍的空間然後場域又這麼寬廣"},{"start":411.34,"end":432.336,"text":"然後又有虎科又有雲科又可以扮演在中部地區整個AI人才培訓的最重的這樣的一個基地主委是不是可以思考來了解之後趕快馬上進行規劃實質來看應該怎麼來做處理因為這個案子我們在7月23號其實有回復院只是院那邊還沒有核定那就請主委來結束"},{"start":433.858,"end":450.436,"text":"積極來看整個處理嘛好不好 願我會催那當然也要有主委看你有沒有新的思維讓這件事情能不能趕快的沉澱落定趕快讓我們更多的這個人才可以在這個地方孕育而生嘛可以吧 一個禮拜內好 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":757,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時15分）謝謝主席。有請我們新科的葉主委。"],["主席：我們再請葉主委。"],["劉委員建國：主委，很高興你首度以國發會主委的身分到委員會來做業務的報告。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：我想國發會作為國家發展重要核心的一個單位，肩負著擘劃臺灣未來經濟、社會、區域發展的重責大任，所以你上任的報告，我特別看過，我希望你可以帶來創新的思維跟新的氣象，還有強力協調這樣的一個整合的能力。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：但是坦白講，你的業務報告好像還有一些進步的空間，國發會報告提到主計總處的預測是114年民間投資實質成長將近10%，等同快將近6兆，但是民間消費的實質成長卻不到1%。我要在這邊請問主委，國家投資這麼大的金額，怎麼消費數字會這麼低？這是否代表著整個經濟成長的果實根本分配不均，也凸顯到薪資的停滯、中產階級的焦慮，甚至貧富差距擴大的系統性問題？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分就是因為我們國人非常喜歡出國旅遊，尤其去日本，當然在整個國民會計所得上來講，它會有一個抵銷效果，但是在國內消費跟國外消費有一個很大的差別，就是它整個乘數效果就不會出來，我們在臺灣花1塊錢跟在日本花1塊錢，對臺灣的經濟貢獻其實是有差異性的，但是在國民所得上面來講，它會抵銷掉。"],["劉委員建國：但是怎麼跟你的報告不一樣？原本主計總處是在今年5月28日發布，114年間的民間消費成長預估還有1.36%，短短不到五個月，你們的報告又再度下修，剩下0.85%。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，就是因為關稅不確定性，使得有一些耐久性的消費財其實有下降。"],["劉委員建國：對，這跟出國應該沒有直接關係吧！到底是關稅，還是哪一個？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：出國也會是一部分，所以這個大的差異性會……"],["劉委員建國：比例是哪一個部分比較大？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就是關稅那一個部分。"],["劉委員建國：關稅比較大？但是你們自己的報告是，消費疲軟歸咎於上半年股市交易量能縮減。114年上半年的股市量能有縮減嗎？後面又提到：影響財富效果，以及民眾觀望汽車進口關稅遞延購車。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有啦，應該是未來一整年。"],["劉委員建國：未來一整年？到底是什麼主要的因素讓我們消費指數成長率在下降？"],["陳處長美菊：下半年會比較好。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：上半年……"],["劉委員建國：我現在跟你講整個年度嘛，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，你的報告裡面也是在講整個年度嘛？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["劉委員建國：對啊，那你現在跟我講下半年會比較好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：下半年那個部分是因為我們有發現金1萬塊。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以你們今天的報告是有把1萬塊納入在你們的消費指數裡面嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有。"],["劉委員建國：你的成長率裡面有嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有。"],["劉委員建國：如果有，怎麼還下降？原本是預估1.36%，現在是下降到0.85%。"],["陳處長美菊：5月28日的數字是太早的預估，現在是……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼叫做太早預估？"],["陳處長美菊：因為現在已經是8月的預估，8月的預估是……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：所以5月到8月其實狀況算差滿大，因為一般來講，像中經院5月在估的時候都還……"],["劉委員建國：沒有，他剛剛答復是太早預估，你現在已經把1萬塊也預估在5月到8月之間，然後還下降？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，那是下半年的，下半年的這一塊。"],["劉委員建國：不是，今年度、114年度你們的預估消費指數成長是多少？"],["陳處長美菊：它是第一季的數字。"],["劉委員建國：不是、不是，不然你跟我講114年你們預估全年度消費成長指數是多少？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員，你這個PPT上面的114年是第一季，是1.36%。"],["劉委員建國：我知道，我知道那裡寫第一季沒有錯啊！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對、對。"],["劉委員建國：對，第一季，我現在請教你是114年度。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，一整年。"],["陳處長美菊：一整年是零點……"],["劉委員建國：就是你第一季是1.36%，你到第二季就下修了嘛，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["劉委員建國：你到第三季一樣又下修。"],["陳處長美菊：對，因為汽車進口關稅的因素，延遲了民間的消費。"],["劉委員建國：汽車的進口，延遲消費，所以……"],["陳處長美菊：加上國人都在國外消費。"],["劉委員建國：再加上國人都在國外消費。"],["陳處長美菊：可是第四季的預估，現在主計總處的預估，整年來講是0.85%。"],["劉委員建國：0.85%。"],["陳處長美菊：沒有放到消費券這些，還有下半年……"],["劉委員建國：主委剛剛答復我有放進去。"],["陳處長美菊：沒有，他是說預估的……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：明年的預估。"],["劉委員建國：我現在一直跟你討論的是今年的預估。"],["陳處長美菊：主委講的是今年會超過主計總處的5.45%，原因是有消費券的。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就是中經院的估計5.45%是有包括消費券1萬塊的，但是主計總處是沒有的。"],["劉委員建國：好，我直接講，清清楚楚的把你們的預估為什麼會下修，然後到最後一季，你說還會再往上調整一些，把相關的因素全部給我們做個參考，這是第一件事情。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["劉委員建國：第二件事情，我還要特別拜託主委，你剛上任，我覺得有一些事情也可以幫忙協調、幫忙承擔，就是我去年113年6月11日在總質詢時，跟當時的院長還有那時候的郭部長特別建議AI人才培訓基地首度可以考慮到雲林，因為雲林也有一個國科院中部科學管理局的虎尾園區，還有相關整個AI中下游的產業鏈，最近的就是虎科大已經有無人機AI雙核心這樣的課程在推動了，現在有一個環球科大的舊址將近30公頃，還有12棟的校舍，經濟部到現在好像一直規劃不出來，這當時是有承諾而且要往下推的。他們說報國發會，好像意見很多啦。我希望主委展現一個新的氣象、展現魄力，這個地方不需要政府多花費任何費用，然後有這麼多可以利用的校舍空間，場域又這麼寬廣，然後又有虎科，又有雲科，又可以扮演在中部地區整個AI人才培訓最重要的一個基地，主委是不是可以思考，來了解之後，趕快馬上進行規劃，實質來看應該怎麼做處理？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有，因為這個案子我們在7月23日其實有回復院，只是院那邊還沒有核定。"],["劉委員建國：那就請主委來協助，積極來看怎樣處理嘛，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["劉委員建國：院那邊我也會催，當然主委也要看你有沒有新的思維，讓這件事情看看能不能趕快塵埃落定，趕快讓我們更多的人才可以在這個地方孕育而生。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["劉委員建國：可以吧？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["劉委員建國：一個禮拜內？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","登記發言的委員，除了不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員林楚茵所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢以及未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請這個教育部 諸長次然後群衆部好 再請兩位次長對 兩位次長 還有我們任總委員好三位早安"},{"start":24.775,"end":37.421,"text":"我想公教人員是這個國家重要的根基一輩子都為國家跟現在大家付出因此我想照顧他們的晚年我想但是國家跟政府的承諾更是義務 三位認不認同"},{"start":39.065,"end":64.227,"text":"認同謝謝不過我想民進黨政府一上台之後他就翻臉不認人大砍公教年金所得替代率逐年減少1.5%這對公教年金是極大的不尊重更是違背我們國家政府的這個承諾尤其在現在物價年年飆漲的年代這對於退休年來講這影響非常大甚至影響在晚年的時候會危及他的基本的生活"},{"start":64.807,"end":83.069,"text":"那今天司法法治委員會安排這項會議審查我們公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例的修法草案本席認為這是一個很重要的開始那停砍公教人員退休的這個所在地守護他們的權利跟晚年的生活這是慈愛的正義那我想也是這個國家必須要還給他們的公道"},{"start":83.61,"end":99.012,"text":"那本席還有其他國民黨的這些很多委員都提出這個修法的版本我們希望之後的逐條討論的時候能夠並案一起來審查我們也希望不分黨派的委員都能夠理性的來討論那本席也強調公教人員穩定的退休制度絕對他不是不是特權"},{"start":99.833,"end":118.142,"text":"而是這個國家跟公教人員定下的契約精神本席再次強調 那是契約精神那也希望教育部跟全區部務必要跟我們公教人員站在一起那 而不是跟執政黨在一起一定要全力來守護我們公教人員應有的權益那接下來我想要針對我們偏鄉的問題來跟我們任總這邊來進行討論我們請任總委員好"},{"start":125.02,"end":143.868,"text":"正好那個根據媒體報導我們這幾年那個公教人員的報考率逐漸下降可是離職率越來越高這代表什麼代表越來越少人願意留在我們的公教的職場那在偏鄉更是嚴重像台東的公教人員短缺跟流動的頻率都很高像"},{"start":144.668,"end":169.584,"text":"所以那個情車台東整個服務院廣大那交通啊 生活機能都不比西部跟北部造成很多公務人員公教人員都一樣就一定年資服務一滿之後他就會選擇離開台東縣變成一個新兵訓練中心一直在換人 一直在換人那本市在立法院也多次的爭取這個一定要提升我們台東地區公教人員的家籍目前台東的東台家籍每個月是多少錢600"},{"start":175.435,"end":188.133,"text":"630 630從民國79年到現在都沒有調過各位清楚這30年的物價變化多大680以台東縣的整個服務員廣大的情況來講630塊他連一個月的油錢他都可能沒有辦法負擔"},{"start":189.415,"end":218.795,"text":"那我想這個真的是要很好要請好好思考一下東部的特殊性那我們行政院目前有推這個各級機關學校公教人員工作地域加級合理化調整方案本席在主張是說這個部分中央一定要挹注更多的資源我們研議我們怎麼樣讓來台東這些服務的不管是工人員或老師他願意留下來而且優先喔這個事情是從本島就從台東優先來做起"},{"start":219.435,"end":235.733,"text":"因為我相信全台灣很多地方跟台東一樣那台東是更明顯的因為其實坦白說我們自己本席從台東上來的不管是距離啦交通方式啦跟離島其實沒什麼兩樣所以這部分要請任總這邊來協助那這邊是不是可以來演繹一下"},{"start":237.626,"end":249.29,"text":"委員 其實我們任市長對台東很關注他去台東很多次 我都跟他翻臉過他對台東是很關心的東台家族是比較早一點的規範現在是刷第一家族來做處理所以委員是很內行的"},{"start":261.334,"end":279.01,"text":"就是他已經挪到第一家族在做處理那第一家族我們也做合宜化方案讓地方可以彈性一點看他能不能把它做大一點做彈性一點然後讓這個偏鄉 偏洋其實台東"},{"start":281.032,"end":296.751,"text":"是我們面對太平洋的前端不是後方我們是很努力的在做一塊做這一塊不只是在台東的縣政府鄉公所的公務同仁我們部會在台東其實"},{"start":298.152,"end":320.207,"text":"也有一些同仁在那邊 也都受委員的照顧這個我們都會一起去做考量副市長你也知道台東縣政府的財政情況並不是這麼聰明很多東西真的都需要中央幫忙我們可以幫的部分我們就一起來努力謝謝 那是不是請副市長在一週內將提報研議的方式給本席辦公室 好不好"},{"start":320.567,"end":321.71,"text":"謝謝副省長 也謝謝三位謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝黃委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（12時14分）謝謝召委，有請教育部朱常次，然後銓敘部。"],["主席：請兩位次長。"],["黃委員建賓：對，兩位次長，還有人總。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：三位早安。公教人員是這個國家重要的根基，一輩子都為國家跟下一代在付出，因此照顧他們的晚年，不但是國家跟政府的承諾，更是義務，三位認不認同？"],["朱次長俊彰：認同。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝。不過民進黨政府一上臺之後，就翻臉不認人，大砍公教年金，所得替代率逐年減少1.5%，這對公教人員是極大的不尊重，更是違背國家、政府的承諾，尤其在現在物價年年飆漲的年代，這對退休人員來講，影響非常大，甚至會影響到他晚年的時候，會危及到他的基本生活。今天司法及法制委員會安排這項會議，審查公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例的修法草案，本席認為這是一個很重要的開始。停砍公教人員退休的所得替代率，守護他們的權利跟晚年的生活是遲來的正義，也是國家必須還給他們的公道。本席還有其他國民黨很多的委員都有提出修法的版本，希望之後在逐條討論的時候能夠併案一起審查，也希望不分黨派的委員都能夠理性討論。","本席要強調公教人員穩定的退休制度絕對不是特權，而是這個國家跟公教人員訂下的契約精神，本席再次強調那是「契約精神」，也希望教育部跟銓敘部務必要跟公教人員站在一起，而不是跟執政黨在一起，一定要全力守護公教人員應有的權益。接下來我想針對偏鄉的問題跟人總進行討論，所以有請人總。"],["張副人事長秋元：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：根據媒體報導，這幾年公教人員的報考率逐漸下降，可是離職率愈來愈高，這代表什麼？代表愈來愈少人願意留在公教的職場，在偏鄉更是嚴重。像臺東的公教人員短缺跟流動的頻率都很高，相信你也很清楚整個臺東的幅員廣大，交通、生活機能都不比西部跟北部，造成很多公教人員都一樣，服滿一定年資之後就會選擇離開，臺東縣變成一個新兵訓練中心，就是一直在換人。本席在立法院多次爭取一定要提升臺東地區公教人員的加給，目前東臺加給每個月是多少錢？"],["張副人事長秋元：630。"],["黃委員建賓：從民國79年到現在都沒有調過，各位清楚這30年的物價變化有多大？才630。以臺東縣整個幅員廣大的情況來講，630塊連一個月的油錢可能都沒有辦法負擔，我想這真的要好好思考一下東部的特殊性。行政院目前有推「各機關學校公教員工地域加給合理化調整方案」，本席的主張是，這個部分中央一定要挹注更多的資源，研議怎麼讓這些來臺東服務的人，不管是公務人員或老師願意留下來，而且這個事情在本島就從臺東優先做起，因為我相信全臺灣有很多地方都跟臺東一樣，而臺東是更明顯的。坦白說，本席就是從臺東上來的，不管是距離還是交通方式，跟離島其實沒什麼兩樣，所以這部分要請人總來協助，是不是可以來研議一下？"],["張副人事長秋元：委員，其實人事長對臺東很關注。"],["黃委員建賓：他去臺東很多次，我都跟他反映過。"],["張副人事長秋元：他對臺東是很關心的。"],["黃委員建賓：是。"],["張副人事長秋元：東臺加給是比較早一點的規範，現在是移到地域加給去處理，所以委員實在是很內行，就是它已經移到地域加給去處理了，我們也對地域加給做了合理化方案，讓地方可以彈性一點，看能不能把它做大一點、做彈性一點，然後讓偏鄉……其實臺東是面對太平洋的前端而不是後方。"],["黃委員建賓：是。"],["張副人事長秋元：我們很努力在做這一塊，不只是在臺東縣政府、鄉公所的公務同仁，中央部會在臺東其實也有一些同仁在那邊，也都受委員的照顧，我們都會一起去考量。"],["黃委員建賓：對啊！副人事長也知道臺東縣政府的財政情況並不是這麼充裕，很多東西真的都需要中央幫忙。"],["張副人事長秋元：可以幫的部分我們就一起來努力。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝，是不是可以請副人事長在一週內將研議出的方式提報給本席辦公室？好不好？"],["張副人事長秋元：這樣會不會太趕了？"],["黃委員建賓：可以嗎？"],["張副人事長秋元：太趕了，1個月，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：好，1個月！謝謝副人事長，也謝謝3位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，就在1個月之內提供報告給黃委員參考。","接下來請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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有請環境部 經濟部請洪部長和吃酒"},{"start":9.156,"end":35.101,"text":"羅委員好部長想跟你就教幾個問題我想我們這一次因為颱風有許多的風電設施擋不住颱風所以造成了整個毀損那我們看到屏東嘉義環境部說有災損的總計有33暗場光電板那當初這些光電板在設置的時候並沒有做環評所以8月27號的時候有要求做事後的補救總體檢請問做了嗎"},{"start":36.901,"end":65.509,"text":"資料能不能提供這個人員署他們有特別去做我們有協商好 請說我們針對於丹納斯受損的31個案場還有4個比較大型的這個水面的這個案場有去做一些檢驗然後檢驗檢查的這個結果也有請業者在兩個月裡面進行改善兩個月內進行改善大致有多少要兩個月內全部都要兩個月內進行改善全部嗎"},{"start":67.432,"end":75.648,"text":"相關的這個缺失我們要求他兩個月內進行改善當然依照缺失的情節不一樣他有的是立即改善這樣能不能提供"},{"start":77.377,"end":98.352,"text":"好麻煩你會後請提供那我想另外呢近期啊台灣設置在水庫跟集水區光電板遍及全國各地但相關的環評跟耐風性呢也引起了社會高度的一個關注我想請問現在多少的水庫集水區或者是在任何的河面上放置光電板不知道有沒有這樣資料"},{"start":99.624,"end":105.38,"text":"目前掌握的資料大概在是不是在水庫的水面太陽能的暗場大概是有6場6場 集水區呢"},{"start":108.317,"end":137.572,"text":"集水區的部分因為我們從今年的1月開始針對於水庫的集水區它特別是屬於在環境敏感的區位20M以上的這個部分現在還沒有任何一個暗場現在經過這個程序審議通過的我們希望還是要關注不管是任何的一個場域都應該有設置就應該要知道那大台中地區有哪個集水區有設置光電板部長你知道嗎"},{"start":140.517,"end":158.988,"text":"水庫集水區是一個非常大的概念舉例而言比如說像高雄或是台中台中的話石岡壩它非常的接近下游若是以水庫集水區的話幾乎整個所謂的大甲溪的流域都是屬於水庫的集水區"},{"start":159.648,"end":182.556,"text":"所以我今天想討論就是台電與大甲溪東市馬鞍後池設置的光電板根據台電的官方說明光電設施的材料為高密度的巨蜥耐酸鹼且不釋放有害的物質每年定期水質檢測台水公司配合確保水質的安全然而地方民眾跟部分團體還是憂心颱風期間漂浮結構安全與水質的長期變化"},{"start":187.318,"end":197.033,"text":"當然也有人在討論所謂的清洗光電板會不會有所謂的一些相關水質的污染我想是不是請部長或者是經濟部再一次的說明"},{"start":199.285,"end":221.28,"text":"針對於我們綠能的發展或是太陽能光電事實上我們在今年年初對於不管是環社的檢核或是景觀生態還有地方知情權都有強化的要求所以基本上我們會先要求說開發業者在當地先召開地方的說明會"},{"start":222.642,"end":235.848,"text":"我想我的問題比較具體一點就是你可不可以能夠具體的保證現在設置這些光電板不會影響到水質可以嗎還有清洗會不會影響到水質"},{"start":236.516,"end":265.255,"text":"那當然因為所有的太陽能的電板都是非常穩定的材料無論是過去設置的或是未來所開發的這個太陽能的耳光電板它的性質都是一樣那過去所設置的我剛剛說明了六處的水庫的這個設置我們定期的檢驗水質不管是經濟部所管或是農業部所管到目前的這個部分定期檢驗的這個結果水質都合乎我們國家的標準好 謝謝你"},{"start":266.115,"end":276.047,"text":"那我想在這一個案場當中我所提到的大甲溪那這些設置在設置的之前呢是否全數經過環評檢測"},{"start":280.25,"end":298.488,"text":"他要看那個規模大小那目前就我剛剛所提的啦就以大甲溪我們這一個東勢馬鞍後池那你後面要不要補你是不是應該當初未辦理啊那你環境部憲政在檢討嘛對不對你要要把他納入環評的標準是否會追溯你確定會追溯"},{"start":299.308,"end":313.322,"text":"基本上那個環評的概念是沒有追溯但是新蓋的就要開始接受環評所以我想問就是說這部分是不是應該要追蹤一下我們都很關切啦隨面型的光電板納入審查範圍我想希望能夠啟動這樣環評什麼時候可以"},{"start":316.608,"end":330.741,"text":"目前我們是20公頃所以你有分大小嗎我們有分大小你說一片兩片你說真的是小到可能我們不予計較那就算了可是以大甲西光這個影片"},{"start":331.522,"end":346.704,"text":"所看到的那個暗場那以非專業人士我們都會有所疑慮那當時沒有啟動這個環評那未來能不能追溯去啟動我想位於台風台灣位於這個台風我們非常多"},{"start":347.205,"end":373.925,"text":"而且丹納斯所造成的這樣大面積的一個情況顯示浮動的這個光電耐風性還是明顯不足所以我想部長我強調綠能不可以建立在這個破壞水源的代價之上所以我們也希望未來在環評階段能夠聽取地方的意見加強溝通剛剛有提到也會不管未來如果設置的時候也會有地方的一個說明會對不對這個部分我希望能夠加強那另外我想再請問五街環評的一個審查"},{"start":376.107,"end":389.442,"text":"今天環團在立法院召開記者會對於環境部長就任後首提的環委名單卻因環公獨大遭抨擊那彭部長主政之下官派及民間的領選環委也是健康專長的雙掛鈴"},{"start":391.084,"end":410.535,"text":"那對於這樣子的一個記者會部長 環團要求重提環委的名單喔你有沒有什麼要回應的包委喔 因為這個環評委員是有一套機制的這個選拔也各界來推薦出來的所以其實那個是我如果環團如果有希望有自己的人選也希望能夠多提出來那基本上所以你願意跟環團溝通"},{"start":411.716,"end":429.822,"text":"其實基本上大家要聽因為那個有一個程序上來之後最後只有一個加倍的名單我可以來勾選那這一次呢總共民間的14位代表裡面有7位7位是屬於環工科系的但是環工也不是說開發智商喔他們自己有一個特別的聲明其中7位裡面有一位教授"},{"start":430.222,"end":447.318,"text":"他本身過去就中國醫藥大學的健康風險評估他就是做健康風險評估的所以這個大家的意見可能並不是如有一些人這樣的其實我們是都有考慮在裡面我對個別的委員沒有意見我想但是這個記者會的內容我想應該多方參考去了解我們會參考"},{"start":448.098,"end":471.3,"text":"那因為在這個911號公佈的第二屆環評委員名單中工程領域他們是說高達9人歷年最多一次那剛剛你有提到有所回應但是呢委員名單分佈且來自四個學科領域是歷屆最少醫藥的衛生委員他們則是掛鈴顯見專業結構單一這是他們的一個說法啦我就希望說部長在本屆環委的隸屬四個這個學科領域"},{"start":474.302,"end":497.874,"text":"創立年新低他的遴選標準跟程序為何那為什麼醫藥掛零這個部分你可以再回應一下嗎包委員其實這個我們都有健康風險評估因為這個環評不是醫藥這不是醫藥的一個問題是健康風險評估所以我們裡面有一位專家就是風險評估的專家在裡面健康風險在裡面好我還是希望能夠多跟環團多做溝通好不好"},{"start":499.194,"end":528.209,"text":"那在這個 也跟你另外請教一下據聞本週將進行五街及中游市企的環評大會有此事嗎沒有確定沒有他們的確送了報告但是現在讓委員正在審核當中我自己都還沒有看到所以目前的這個我相信可能委員有一些意見會叫他們提出書面意見目前我們還沒有進到排審的一個階段我想台中人擔心的是針對不論是五街或中游市企均要在台中港搶建LNG的這個接收"},{"start":529.13,"end":542.427,"text":"設施而在多數環工背景的環評委員在中央搜一下會不會有快速環評闖關這是我們擔憂我們希望能夠過程中能夠多溝通更圓融然後也能夠多聽聽地方的意見"},{"start":543.609,"end":561.056,"text":"最後我想講的是噪音管制法今天我剛好在做所謂的提案說明的時候您也有在現場那許多的委員也很關注不管是罰款提高或者是調扣所謂的牌照我想環境部的都是覺得非常樂觀其成是嗎"},{"start":561.696,"end":581.334,"text":"支持委員的想法我們真的希望這件事情能夠加快速度因為民眾真的是苦不堪言所以也非常感謝昭緯這麼有智慧的趕緊排審那我們一起來努力也希望環境部能夠加大力度那最後想請問一下環境部聲音照相的科技執法啟動以來全台已佈建多少套設備"},{"start":583.632,"end":605.192,"text":"幾百套啦 幾百套 因為 之前就跟我講幾百套因為315套 你覺得夠嗎當然不夠啊 但是我也 因為所以看起來還不如趕快修法是吧才化法過了之後我們本來希望更多啦但是才化法過後之後因為我們主計單位也告訴我們說其實有些是地方的直接採購跟補貼"},{"start":606.914,"end":632.161,"text":"鼓勵地方採購我想財發法過後是錢又是權大家一起想辦法那我想不管是因為我也曾擔任過議員地方的採購也是非常緩慢所以我想不管是多管齊下的一個方式來解決噪音改裝的這個問題我們應該來努力那個財閥件數分佈這個是我們會後希望能夠再就教也希望這相關的數據能夠提供給我們好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":635.492,"end":638.864,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員發言那我們現在休息20分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1035,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時8分）謝謝主席。有請環境部、經濟部。"],["主席：請彭部長和次長。"],["彭部長啓明：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，想跟你就教幾個問題，我們這一次因為颱風，有許多的光電設施擋不住颱風，所以造成整個毀損，那我們看到屏東、嘉義，環境部說有災損的，總計有33案廠光電板，當初這些光電板在設置的時候並沒有做環評，所以在8月27日的時候有要求做事後的補救總體檢，請問做了嗎？資料能不能提供？"],["彭部長啓明：這個能源署他們有特別去做，我們有協商，是不是請他們回答？"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，請說。"],["賴次長建信：我們針對丹娜絲受損的31個案場，還有4個比較大型的水面案場有去做一些檢驗，然後檢查的結果也有請業者在2個月裡面進行改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：2個月內進行改善，大致有多少要2個月內？全部都要2個月內進行改善，全部嗎？"],["賴次長建信：相關的缺失，我們要求他2個月內進行改善，當然依照缺失的情節不一樣，有的是立即改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：資料能不能提供？"],["賴次長建信：這可以，當然沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，麻煩你會後請提供。另外，近期臺灣設置在水庫跟集水區，光電板遍及全國各地，相關的環評跟耐風性也引起了社會高度的關注，我想請問，現在有多少的水庫集水區或者是水面上放置光電板，不知道有沒有這樣的資料？"],["賴次長建信：我們目前掌握的資料，設置在水庫水面的太陽能案場大概是有六場……"],["羅委員廷瑋：六場。"],["賴次長建信：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：集水區呢？"],["賴次長建信：集水區的部分，我們從今年1月開始針對於水庫的集水區，特別是屬於在環境敏感區位20MW以上的這個部分，現在還沒有任何一個案場經過這個程序審議通過的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們希望還是要關注，不管是任何一個場域，都應該有設置就要知道。大臺中地區有哪個集水區有設置光電板，部長，你知道嗎？"],["賴次長建信：水庫集水區是一個非常大的概念，我舉例而言，比如高雄或是臺中，臺中的話，石岡壩非常接近下游，若是以水庫集水區來說的話，幾乎整個所謂的大甲溪流域都是屬於水庫的集水區……"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，所以我今天想討論的就是台電於大甲溪東勢馬鞍後池設置的光電板。根據台電的官方說明，光電設施的材料為高密度的聚乙烯，耐酸鹼，且不釋放有害物質，台水公司每年都會配合定期水質檢測，確保水質的安全。然而地方民眾和部分團體還是憂心颱風期間漂浮結構的安全與水質的長期變化，當然也有人在討論所謂的清洗光電板會不會有相關的水質污染，我想是不是請部長或者是經濟部再次地說明？"],["賴次長建信：針對於綠能的發展或是太陽能光電，事實上，我們在今年年初，對於不管是環社檢核，或是景觀生態，還有地方知情權，都有強化的要求，所以基本上我們會要求開發業者在當地先召開地方的說明會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我的問題比較具體一點，就是你可不可以具體地保證，現在設置這些光電板不會影響到水質，可以嗎？還有清洗會不會影響到水質？"],["賴次長建信：那當然啦！因為所有的太陽能電板都是非常穩定的材料，無論是過去設置的，或是未來所開發的，太陽能光電板的性質都是一樣，過去所設置的，像我剛剛說明的6處水庫的設置，我們定期檢驗水質，不管是經濟部所管或是農業部所管，到目前這個部分定期檢驗的結果水質都合乎我們國家的標準。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝你。在我所提到的大甲溪這一個案場當中，這些設施在設置之前是否全數經過環評檢測？"],["彭部長啓明：要看那個規模大小，目前……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就我剛剛所提的，就以這個大甲溪東勢馬鞍後池……"],["彭部長啓明：應該是沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你後面要不要補？當初未辦理，你是不是應該要補？"],["賴次長建信：依照現行的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：環境部現正在檢討，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你要把它納入環評的標準，是否會追溯？你確定會追溯？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，環評的概念是沒有追溯，但是新蓋的就要開始接受環評。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我想問的就是這個部分是不是應該要追蹤一下？我們都很關切，把水面型的光電板納入審查範圍，希望能夠啟動這樣的環評，什麼時候可以？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們是20公頃……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你有分大小嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：我們有分大小，國際上也都一樣……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，當然一片、兩片，真的是小到可能我們也不予計較，那就算了，可是以大甲溪那個案場，光這個影片所看到的，以非專業人士，我們都會有所疑慮，當時沒有啟動這個環評，未來能不能追溯去啟動？我想臺灣的颱風非常多，而且以丹娜絲所造成的這樣大面積的情況顯示，浮動光電的耐風性還是明顯不足。部長，我強調綠能不可以建立在破壞水源的代價之上，我們也希望未來在環評階段能夠聽取地方的意見，加強溝通……"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛有提到，未來如果設置的時候，也會有地方的說明會，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分，我希望能夠加強。","另外，我想再請問五接環評的審查。今天環團在立法院召開記者會，指出環境部長就任後首提環委名單，卻因環工獨大遭抨擊，彭部長主政之下，官派及民間的遴選環委也是健康專長雙掛零。對於這樣的一個記者會，部長，環團要求重提環委名單，你有沒有什麼要回應的？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為環評委員是有一套機制的選拔，也是各界推薦出來的，所以環團如果希望有自己的人選，也希望能夠多提出來，基本上，他們是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你願意跟環團溝通？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，大家要提，因為那個有一個程序，上來之後，最後只有一個加倍的名單我可以來勾選。這一次民間的總共14位代表裡面有7位是屬於環工科系的，但是環工也不是開發至上，他們自己有一個特別的聲明，這7位裡面其中有1位教授本身過去在中國醫藥大學的健康風險管理系，他就是做健康風險評估的，所以大家的意見可能並不都如有一些人這樣的，其實我們是都有考慮在裡面的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我對個別的委員沒有意見，但是這個記者會的內容，我想應該去多方參考、了解……"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們會參考。"],["羅委員廷瑋：在9月1日公布的第二屆環評委員名單中，工程領域，他們說高達9人，是歷年最多一次，剛剛你有提到，有所回應，但是委員名單分布起來，這四個學科領域是歷屆最少，醫藥的、衛生的委員則是掛零，顯見專業結構單一，這是他們的一個說法，本屆環委隸屬四個學科領域的創歷年新低。部長，這個遴選的標準及程序為何？為什麼醫藥的掛零？你可以再回應一下嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們都有健康風險評估，因為環評不是醫藥的問題，是健康風險評估，所以我們裡面有1位專家就是健康風險評估的專家，有健康風險評估在裡面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我還是希望能夠多跟環團溝通，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：也跟你另外請教一下，據聞，本週將進行五接及中油四期的環評大會，有此事嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：確定沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：他們的確送了報告，但是現在委員正在審核當中，我自己都還沒有看到，我相信可能委員有一些意見，會叫他們提出書面意見，目前我們還沒有進到排審的階段。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想臺中人擔心的是不論是五接或中油四期均要在臺中港搶建LNG的接收設施，而多數環工背景的環評委員在中央授意下，會不會有快速環評闖關，這是我們擔憂的，我們希望過程中能夠多溝通、更圓融，也能夠多聽聽地方的意見。","再來，我想講的是噪音管制法，今天我剛好在做所謂的提案說明的時候，您也有在現場……"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：許多的委員也很關注，不管是罰鍰提高，或者是吊扣所謂的牌照，我想環境部都是非常樂觀其成，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：支持，支持委員的想法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們真的希望這件事情能夠加快速度，因為民眾真的是苦不堪言！所以也非常感謝召委這麼有智慧地趕緊排審，我們一起來努力，也希望環境部能夠加大力度。","最後，我想請問一下環境部，聲音照相的科技執法啟動以來，全臺已布建多少套設備？"],["彭部長啓明：幾百套，不過，委員，因為……"],["羅委員廷瑋：幾百套？之前就跟我講幾百套……"],["彭部長啓明：315套……"],["羅委員廷瑋：您覺得夠嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：當然不夠，委員，但是因為……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對啊！所以看起來還不如趕快修法，是吧！"],["彭部長啓明：我們本來希望更多，但是財劃法過了之後，我們主計單位也告訴我們，其實有些是地方的，這個是一般性補助款……"],["羅委員廷瑋：直接採購和補貼，鼓勵地方採購，我想財劃法過了後，釋錢又釋權，大家一起想辦法，不管是……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為我也曾擔任過議員，知道地方的採購也是非常緩慢，所以我想要以多管齊下的方式來解決改裝噪音的這個問題，我們應該來努力。至於裁罰件數、分布，這個是我們會後希望能夠再就教，也希望相關的數據能夠提供給我們，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員發言。我們現在休息20分鐘，謝謝。","休息（12時19分）","繼續開會（12時48分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接著請楊瓊瓔委員發言，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164437","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164437","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b41fdc7e2924e5a5e88348e19566c842c83c966d97180d5d25473bcb92a8505d65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:08:52 - 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有請我們葉主委好 我們再請主委委員長主委好 主委我想我們賴總統一直有提到一個均衡台灣的一個施政理念那因為台灣這個"},{"start":26.229,"end":47.184,"text":"服務員這個南北過去南北的差距然後還有城鄉的一個城鄉的一個落差那屏東縣一直位於這個我們台灣台灣妹啦那所以我們在很多基礎建設上面確實是這個雖然這幾年有積極在努力但是還是有很多的資源的不足主委您認同這樣的一個均衡台灣的一個理念嗎"},{"start":47.935,"end":69.692,"text":"我當然認同所以你願意來支持屏東縣的一個重大的建設嗎對 就是說屏東縣的建設應該也不只屏東啦應該台灣其他縣市的建設應該是屏東的事 我要先跟屏東說一下理解理解好 所以我想第一個議題屏東縣政府已經提出一個漁業建設的一個專案計畫"},{"start":71.553,"end":100.353,"text":"那這個案子也獲得農業部的大力支持那包含我們的仿寮漁港 海伯濤大莊跟東海的養殖區的海水供應系統還有番仔輪的海水供應系統那這個因為涉及到捕撈業還有我們很重要的陸上養殖的一個產業這三大工程我想這是我們這個屏東過去洗蘭的農漁大縣我想這部分是我們很重要的一個漁業基礎建設那這個案子農業部審查之後會送到國會"},{"start":101.354,"end":102.916,"text":"主委這部分能不能加快來進行會就是說對"},{"start":106.229,"end":134.767,"text":"对 就是说行政院已经在113年的3月都已经审定了那个农业部的农业永续经营基础计划第二期那那个113年的8月也核定了养殖渔业振兴计划第二期那屏东县政府所提的那一个是跟那个农业部是比较会透过农业部补助地方的评比竞争机制然后排列那个顺序我们会加速处理"},{"start":135.487,"end":160.242,"text":"主委因為這個經費也不少差不多將近30億因為我們的部會每次講到這個錢的問題都傷腦筋尤其我們現在整個預算的這個吃緊然後加上財化法的關係那你要讓屏東縣政府來負擔這樣一個龐大的預算真的是沒辦法尤其屏東縣明年可能少了42億這部分國會能不能大力來支持這個部"},{"start":166.745,"end":189.436,"text":"我們會跟農業部再來演上一下加快進行好不好好沒問題你們這樣每次審議都審議很久了我會加快另外我想我還要特別提到我們交通的一個困境尤其我們這個南匯的部分到目前為止屏東市唯一沒有雙軌化的部分所以我們一直推動南匯的鐵路的平均改善"},{"start":189.983,"end":204.288,"text":"跟很重要我們訪寮車站的一個大平台高架計畫尤其這個訪寮車站齁這個不是只有交通問題而是兩個品交道會造成一個這大主意的問題齁我想除了這個改善品交道的交通瓶頂之外"},{"start":204.69,"end":223.504,"text":"能够把它高架之后也把我们的治水的一个工程能够一并来做处理那这个案子也讲了很久那交通部这个案子已经有送到国家会跟新城院了因为这一个案子我们去年就已经审好了然后回去了那我们基本上是支持了现在就是等院那边核定了那主委也帮我们说一下可以啦"},{"start":226.65,"end":255.246,"text":"那另外一個對我們屏南這個恆春半島觀光很重要的就是屏南觀光鐵道那這個案子鐵道局已經在今年8月開過期末審查那也已經通過了那下一步就要送到我們的行政院來審核那我想恆春這幾年觀光的人潮當然有受到減少但是我們也期待未來藉由這樣一個屏南觀光鐵道配合我們整個交通的一個屏南快速道路的進行把我們這個遊客也好這個很多的一個交通的"},{"start":255.606,"end":271.148,"text":"困境能夠解除這部分主委我們目前進度審到哪裡目前就是交通部還沒有呈報給院裡面那交通部的那個鐵道局會在8月28號召開可行性的那個委辦案的期末審查會議那"},{"start":274.041,"end":295.402,"text":"國發會後續會將配合行政院交易之後辦理審查事宜如果交通部那邊送過來再拜託主委一下 請他快點進行好那最後一個恆春半島有一個提了一個半島變形Easy Go的計畫還有 主委你有去過我們家的家路水嗎還沒有你以前有沒有畢業旅行 那些都一定要去的地方"},{"start":296.933,"end":323.841,"text":"不過有去鵝鸞比啦有去那個南灣那裡我想過去滿洲加熱水是一個國人旅行必須的一個景點那這因為後來因為整個一個設備的一個老舊甚至一個交通的一個影響那我想屏東縣政府也提出了一個半島變形Easy Go去整合了幸福巴士小王公車跟客貨共載的一個案子那這個經費3400多萬要希望中央能夠大力來補助"},{"start":324.461,"end":346.944,"text":"那加落水跟港口吊橋的一個改造計劃這個經費是我們屏東縣政府積極推動地方觀光再造的一個關鍵計劃那主委這個歡迎你來屏東看一看我想未來打造這個南台灣的一個觀光亮點這是一個很重要的一個計劃那期待主委大力來支持啦這個補回是不是可以你跟交通部快點處理好不好"},{"start":347.845,"end":361.192,"text":"但是因為管政府現在還沒把假月送到我們家沒有啦 明明要送出來啊好啦我先要送你到上岡去好啦好啦 要叫人家快點送你來的時候 現在看到我們現在光光亮點啦 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時8分）謝謝主席，有請葉主委。"],["主席：好，我們再請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委好。賴總統一直提到均衡臺灣的施政理念，因為臺灣的南北差距和城鄉落差，屏東縣位於「臺灣尾」，所以我們在很多基礎建設上雖然這幾年有積極在努力，但還是有很多資源不足的地方，請問主委認同均衡臺灣的理念嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我當然認同。"],["徐委員富癸：所以你願意支持屏東縣的重大建設嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：應該也不只屏東啦！應該是臺灣其他縣市……"],["徐委員富癸：因為我是屏東的，所以我要先幫屏東講一下話。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：理解、理解。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我想第一個議題，屏東縣政府已經提出漁業建設的專案計畫，這個案子也獲得農業部的大力支持，包含我們的枋寮漁港，還有下埔頭、大庄跟東海養殖區的海水供應系統，還有番仔崙的海水供應系統，這個因為涉及到捕撈業，還有我們很重要的陸上養殖產業，這三大工程，屏東過去是我們的農漁大縣，我想這部分是我們很重要的一個漁業基礎建設，這個案子在農業部審查之後會送到國發會，主委，這部分能不能加快來進行？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。行政院在113年的3月已經審定了農業部的農業永續經營基礎計畫第2期，113年8月也核定了養殖漁業振興計畫第2期，屏東縣政府所提的那一個，是會透過農業部補助地方的評比競爭機制來排列順序，我們會加速處理。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，這個經費也不少，差不多將近30億，因為部會每次講到錢的問題都傷腦筋，尤其我們現在整個預算吃緊，加上財劃法的關係，你要讓屏東縣政府來負擔這樣一個龐大的預算，真的是沒辦法啦，尤其屏東縣明年可能少了42億，這個部分國發會能不能大力來支持？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們會跟農業部再來研商一下。"],["徐委員富癸：加快進行，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，沒問題。"],["徐委員富癸：你們每次審議都審議很久啦！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會、不會，我們會加快。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我還要特別提到我們交通的一個困境，尤其南迴的部分，到目前為止，屏東是唯一沒有雙軌化的縣市，所以我們一直推動南迴鐵路的瓶頸改善，跟我們很重要的枋寮車站大平臺高架計畫，尤其枋寮車站，這不是只有交通問題，而是兩個平交道會造成淹大水的問題，我想除了改善平交道的交通瓶頸之外，把它高架之後，也把治水工程能夠一併來做處理，這個案子也講了很久，交通部這個案子已經有送到國發會跟行政院了。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這一個案子我們去年就已經審好了，送回去了，我們基本上是支持，現在就是等院那邊核定。"],["徐委員富癸：主委也幫我們說個話。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會啦、會啦。"],["徐委員富癸：會啦？好。另外一個，對恆春半島觀光很重要的就是屏南觀光鐵道，這個案子鐵道局已經在今年8月開過期末審查會議，也已經通過了，下一步就要送到行政院審核。我想恆春這幾年觀光的人潮當然有減少，但是我們也期待未來藉由這樣一個屏南觀光鐵道，配合屏南快速道路整個交通的進行，把我們的遊客及很多交通的困境能夠解除，關於這部分，主委，目前進度審到哪裡？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：目前就是交通部還沒有陳報給院裡面，交通部鐵道局在8月28日召開可行性的委辦案的期末審查會議，國發會後續將配合行政院交付之後，辦理審查事宜。"],["徐委員富癸：如果交通部那邊送過來，再拜託主委一下，加快進行。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["徐委員富癸：最後一個，恆春半島有提了一個「半島便行easy go」的計畫，主委有去過我們滿州的佳洛水嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：還沒。"],["徐委員富癸：你以前畢業旅行沒有去？那都是一定要去的地方。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我有去鵝鑾鼻、有去南灣。"],["徐委員富癸：我想滿州佳洛水是一個國人旅行必須去的景點，後來因為整個設備老舊，甚至交通的影響，屏東縣政府也提出了一個「半島便行easy go」的計畫，整合了幸福巴士、小黃公車跟客貨共載的案子，這個經費三千四百多萬，希望中央能夠大力來補助。佳洛水跟港口吊橋的改造計畫，這個經費是我們屏東縣政府積極推動地方觀光再造的一個關鍵計畫。主委，歡迎你來屏東看一下。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["徐委員富癸：我想未來打造南臺灣的一個觀光亮點，這是一個很重要的計畫，期待主委大力來支持啦。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["徐委員富癸：這個部分，你是不是可以跟交通部趕快來處理，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好啊，但是因為縣政府現在還沒把計畫送到我們這裡。"],["徐委員富癸：有啦，馬上要送出來了。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好啦、好啦。"],["徐委員富癸：我要先請你幫一下忙。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好啦、好啦，要叫他們趕快送。"],["徐委員富癸：這樣你來的時候，才會看到我們新的一個觀光亮點，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請劉建國委員，劉建國、劉建國委員。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員。","接下來請葉元之委員，葉元之、葉元之委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","接下來請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員。","那麼現場有劉建國委員，因為我們剛才已經唸過了，特別給3分鐘，請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我們翁教委我先請我們全序部是不是我們懷次長我要請懷次長文豪好 次長您好本席今天要針對還是公教的退府條例來做一些請教針對退休職員的基本生活保障本席這邊提出一個重點就是說政府是不是能夠及時因應"},{"start":38.101,"end":57.939,"text":"那這個概念很重要今天大家對於這個公立學校教職員退休之前補序條例修正有迫切的期待其中一個很重要的原因就是要建立物價聯動及時調整退休金的制度這不僅是技術性質的一個修法也是制度正義的一個落實"},{"start":59.1,"end":75.428,"text":"近年來物價上漲的壓力大家都可以感受得到今年基本工資調漲就已經超過了4%現值的軍公教人員調薪4%國民年金也調整了7.34%對退休的公教人員而言"},{"start":75.908,"end":90.26,"text":"通膨的每一個百分比都在削弱整個實質生活的能力那麼對靠固定收入生活的退休老師而言這不是只有抽象的數字而是每一餐的米價跟每一罐藥的開銷"},{"start":91.701,"end":120.046,"text":"所以政府在去年初曾經表示退休縫調整是於法有據甚至在預算中也編列了44億元但是還沒有實施沒有執行那導致退休人員與現職之間的差距越來越大信任也隨之流失那部長 對不起 次長本席在這邊強調退休金的調整不是福利的擴張而是大家對制度信賴的一個維持"},{"start":121.407,"end":134.424,"text":"當現職人員的薪資隨物價或經濟情勢調整退休人員也一再停滯這樣的制度設計顯然不僅是有失公平而且還欠缺完整"},{"start":135.906,"end":155.438,"text":"當然大家有很多不同的計算跟比較的方式本席在這邊也要提醒每一項的退休的設計不能平行的跟不同類別的職業來做比較因為信賴保障原則是在大家簽訂契約的同時就已經存在"},{"start":157.5,"end":169.073,"text":"所以在中央發布的消費者物價指數累計成長率達正或負5%時規定政府應該於一定期間啟動調整"},{"start":171.215,"end":189.443,"text":"本席這邊提出來一個概念就是本席認為三個月就應該很恰當的來做一個處理因為剛才本席講的重點是有沒有辦法及時因應所以這邊請教次長您第一個部分是過去兩年退休縫的調整評估會議開了幾次具體的結論各為何"},{"start":194.145,"end":221.678,"text":"第二個部分是那麼目前掌握的CPI累計成長率已經超過了調整的門檻政府是不是可以先依既有的權限來啟動暫行的機制保障退休人員的生活第三個部分是權序部是不是應該主動與主計處考試院之間的協調管道是不是有更明確還有更積極那麼未來可不可以建立立即即時調整的一個制度"},{"start":222.818,"end":229.983,"text":"是不是請次長這邊簡短的跟精準的回應本席剛才所講的問題那簡單來講就是說過去我們曾經分別調過2%跟4%跟4%合計調整過6%"},{"start":238.729,"end":253.065,"text":"但是這個調整它是需要一點時間因為三個月這個我跟委員報告因為每個調整都是涉及到那個預算經費的問題那你如果在預算年度中的話除非說有一個法條譬如說它可以"},{"start":253.866,"end":280.137,"text":"從什麼經費裡面挪起來不然的話每一年預算編列下來都是我們都要反映在下一個年度因為這年度預算是沒有這個預算它依照我們預算法或相關規定它就是不能不能再執行所以好的謝謝次長這邊也提出來這樣一個問題所以本席講的這個概念你們也可以列入一下考量也就是即時因應這樣一個概念那如果您覺得三個月有點窘迫那你們覺得應該是什麼樣子大概多少的時間依據這幾年你們調整的跟"},{"start":283.058,"end":302.397,"text":"沒有辦法因應的部分你們再去做一個計算那我想在未來也可以就這個部分及時的因應好不好我想這是目前比較關鍵大家感覺很窘迫的一個問題那麼是不是也可以請你們說明那剛才本席有幾個問題那你如果來不及回答的是不是可以書面給本席一個回應那包括你剛才講的2% 4%那這個總數呢有沒有"},{"start":306.621,"end":323.027,"text":"跟我們現在整個的這個物價的指數你覺得在平行的部分是不是有達到解決大家問題的一個因應那可不可以請你明確說明你是不是支持整個修法納入限職人員的一個聯動條款那第二個部分"},{"start":323.647,"end":347.365,"text":"如果沒有修法 那現行體制下能不能就剛才本席所建議的三個月來做相關的啟動程序或者是你們能不能先做一些規劃就未來您所講的這個情況如果有發生那你們可以怎麼因應好 第三個部分是那麼未來是不是願意建立明確的檢討時程跟公開透明的評估機制那這個部分是不是請次長也是簡短的回應"},{"start":348.446,"end":374.573,"text":"我簡單報告一下第一個跟限職人員調整的部分我們是比較不建議不建議的理由是說因為限職人員調整它有很多複雜因素我們退休人員這部分的調整在現行機制下就是用CPI跟民事聯檢討一次另外一個情況是說限職人員待遇跟退休人員待遇本來他們跟退休人員的給付它是兩個不同的思考如果你跟限職人員待遇勾在一起的話"},{"start":375.893,"end":403.277,"text":"那就會鼓勵人家找退人家會覺得說我如果縣市裡面跟退休人大約是很接近那我為什麼這麼辛苦要來上班這都需要在我們HR上面我都建議要比較市長 您剛才講的這兩套系統那你是不是給本席比較細節性的一個相關的資料本席所這邊講的就是即時因應的這個三個月是不是請你們也列入思考這樣可以解決比較即時性的一個問題"},{"start":403.777,"end":422.086,"text":"委員我們會後再書面給您做比較細的那個說明好的 謝謝好謝謝委員 指導謝謝那我可不可以很快的請教一下這個教育部就是也很快請教然後及時一個提醒那麼次長您好謝謝最近在這個那個次長 懷次長您可以請坐謝謝"},{"start":424.348,"end":433.433,"text":"近期在國立台灣戲曲學院因為姓平的案件有一些處理的延宕結果教育部這邊必須有一些因應因為你們凍結了相關的補助所以他們對一些主管的懲戒"},{"start":440.858,"end":455.205,"text":"但是大家都有點普遍質疑為什麼始終不作為都要教育部直接介入他們才會有一些動作目前我們在看待這個問題本席這邊提出來不曉得您教育部觀察的一個看法"},{"start":455.865,"end":482.726,"text":"就是說目前校長公開遴選看似大學自主但是常常大家都為了連任而又有一些不好處理的這個事項那這樣一個制度不曉得你們有沒有觀察到是不是這樣一個原因的影響而導致這種個案的一個出現那本席這邊做一個提醒那是不是這一次戲曲學院也可能是一個整體的縮影那之前其實你們可能也提出了一些"},{"start":484.187,"end":503.525,"text":"一些建議但是一直到你們出手以後那才有這樣子的解決所以這個不作為的結果不是只有個案上的一個怠惰那對整個學校的這個性平啊或者是失聲的這個權益可能都有一點影響所以本期要請教的是那你們要不要全面檢討校長的任期"},{"start":504.667,"end":519.705,"text":"那本席這邊有一個建議啦你們可能了解以後然後再試試看了就說六年的擔任制那不得續任有沒有可能這樣子看法您可以研究一下然後給本席一個相關的這個報告嗎"},{"start":521.287,"end":544.206,"text":"這樣最主要是希望不要為了要連任然後有很多這些沒有辦法處理的那或者是如果要連任那還是這個他過這個過程當中他所做的事情是不是有某一些可能的積分等等當然有一些學校的自主啦那教育部這個部分是不是可以也做一些調整或者是一些KPI的一個設計那您的看法是"},{"start":546.128,"end":563.329,"text":"我們會後可以給評估報告給委員這邊做參考那確實以這個案子來講校長據我了解校長是還蠻積極的想去處理這件事情可是因為整個教評會它是個合議制所以校長在事例上那是比較辛苦"},{"start":563.909,"end":592.237,"text":"但是教育部我們因為已經有祭出我們凍結的一個這樣的政策工具之後這個案子最後確實有完成依照性平法該有的處分跟懲處我想這塊委員的建議我們也會評估給委員參考本席是從這個個案看到一個整體的這個問題那可以你們就這整體的一個概念是不是做相關的一個討論跟研究然後會後給本席一個相關的報告那三個月可以嗎"},{"start":592.597,"end":594.346,"text":"好 三個月內 好 好 好 謝謝好的 麻煩三個月"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":788,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時4分）謝謝主席翁召委。我先請銓敘部懷次長。"],["主席：請懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：次長，您好。本席今天要針對公教退撫條例做一些請教。針對退休職員的基本生活保障，本席提出一個重點，那就是政府是不是能夠即時因應？這個概念很重要！今天大家對於公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例修正有迫切的期待，其中一個很重要的原因就是要建立物價連動即時調整退休金的制度，這不僅是技術性質的修法，也是制度正義的落實。","近年來物價上漲的壓力，大家都可以感受得到，今年基本工資調漲就已經超過了4%，現職的軍公教人員調薪4%，國民年金也調整了7.34%，對退休的公教人員而言，通膨的每一個百分比都在削弱實質生活的能力。對靠固定收入生活的退休老師而言，這不是只有抽象的數字，而是每一餐的米價跟每一罐藥的開銷，所以政府在去年初曾經表示，退休俸調整是於法有據，甚至在預算中也編列了44億元，但是遲遲沒有執行，導致退休人員與現職之間的差距越來越大，信任也隨之流失。","次長，本席在這邊強調，退休金的調整不是福利的擴張，而是大家對制度信賴的維持，當現職人員的薪資隨物價或經濟情勢調整，退休人員卻一再停滯，這樣的制度設計顯然不僅是有失公平，而且還欠缺完整。當然大家有很多不同的計算跟比較的方式，本席在這邊也要提醒，每一項退休的設計，不能平行的跟不同類別的職業來比較，因為信賴保障原則是在大家簽訂契約的同時就已經存在，所以中央發布的消費者物價指數，累計成長率達正或負百分之五時，規定政府應該於一定期間啟動調整。","本席提出一個概念，就是本席認為三個月就應該很恰當地來處理，因為剛才本席講的重點是有沒有辦法即時因應，所以請教次長，第一個部分是過去兩年退休俸的調整評估會議開了幾次？具體的結論各為何？第二個部分是目前掌握的CPI累計成長率已經超過調整的門檻，政府是不是可以先依既有的權限來啟動暫行的機制，保障退休人員的生活？第三個部分是銓敘部是不是應該主動？與主計處、考試院之間的協調管道是不是該更明確，還有更積極？未來可不可以建立立即、即時調整的制度？請次長簡短跟精準地回應本席剛才所講的問題。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員指導。簡單來講，過去我們曾經分別調過2%跟4%，合計調整過6%，但是這個調整需要一點時間，每個調整都是涉及到預算經費的問題，如果在預算年度中的話，除非有一個法條，譬如說它可以從什麼經費裡面挪起來，不然的話，每一年預算編列下來，我們都是要反映在下一個年度，因為這年度的預算如果沒有這個預算，依照預算法或相關的規定，它就是不能執行。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝次長提出這樣的問題，所以本席講的這個概念，你們也可以列入考量，也就是即時因應這樣的概念。如果您覺得三個月有點窘迫，那你們覺得應該是什麼樣子？大概多少的時間？依據這幾年你們調整的跟沒有辦法因應的部分，你們也再去計算，那我想在未來也可以就這個部分即時因應，好不好？這是目前比較關鍵，大家感覺很窘迫的一個問題，是不是也可以請你們說明？剛才本席有幾個問題，你如果來不及回答的，是不是可以書面給本席回應？"],["懷次長敍：好。"],["林委員倩綺：包括您剛才講的2%、4%，那這個總數跟我們現在整個物價的指數，你覺得在平行的部分，是不是有達到解決大家問題的因應？那可不可以請您明確說明，你是不是支持整個修法納入現職人員的連動條款？第二個部分，如果沒有修法，現行體制下能不能就剛才本席所建議的三個月來做相關的啟動程序？或者是你們能不能先做一些規劃，就未來您所講的這個情況如果有發生，那你們可以怎麼因應？第三個部分，未來是不是願意建立明確的檢討時程跟公開透明的評估機制，這個部分請次長簡短的回應。"],["懷次長敍：我簡單報告一下，第一個，跟現職人員調整的部分，我們是比較不建議，不建議的理由是，因為現職人員調整有很複雜的因素，退休人員這部分的調整，在現行機制下，就是用CPI跟每4年檢討一次。另外一個情況是，現職人員的待遇跟退休人員的給付是兩個不同的思考，如果你跟現職人員的待遇勾在一起的話，那就會鼓勵人家早退，如果現職人員跟退休人員的待遇很接近，人家會覺得為什麼這麼辛苦要來上班？在HR上，我都建議要比較……"],["林委員倩綺：次長，您剛才講的這兩套系統，是不是可以給本席比較細節性的相關資料……"],["懷次長敍：這個我們會後用書面的……"],["林委員倩綺：本席講的即時因應的三個月，是不是請你們也列入思考？這樣可以解決比較即時性的問題。"],["懷次長敍：委員，會後我們再用書面給您做比較細的說明。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：我可不可以很快地請教一下教育部？很快地請教，然後即時提醒。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：次長您好。謝謝。懷次長，您可以請坐，謝謝。近期在國立臺灣戲曲學院，因為性平的案件有一些處理的延宕，結果教育部必須有一些因應，因為你們凍結了相關的補助，所以他們有對一些主管懲戒，但是大家都有一點普遍質疑，他們為什麼始終不作為，都要教育部直接介入，才會有一些動作。目前我們在看待這個問題，本席提出一些觀察，不曉得教育部的看法如何？目前校長公開遴選看似大學自主，但是常常大家都為了連任，而又有一些不好處理的事項，針對這樣制度，不曉得你們有沒有觀察到，是不是這樣原因的影響，而導致這種個案的出現？","本席在這邊提醒，是不是這一次戲曲學院也可能是整體的縮影？之前其實你們可能也提出了一些建議，但是一直到你們出手以後，才有這樣子的解決，所以這個不作為的結果，不是只有個案上的怠惰，對整個學校的性平或者是師生的權益，可能都有一點影響。本席要請教的是，你們要不要全面檢討校長的任期？本席有一個建議，你們了解以後再試試看，就是6年的單任制，不得續任，有沒有可能？您可以研究一下這樣的看法，然後給本席一個相關的報告嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["林委員倩綺：最主要是希望不要為了要連任，然後有很多沒有辦法處理的問題，或者是如果要連任，這個過程當中他所做的事情是不是有某一些可能的積分等等，當然有一些是學校自主。教育部就這個部分是不是可以做一些調整，或者做一些KPI的設計，您的看法是？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，我們會後可以將評估報告給委員參考，確實以這個案子來講，據我了解，校長是還滿積極地想去處理這件事情，可是教評會是合議制，所以校長在施力上當然是比較辛苦，但是教育部已經有祭出凍結的政策工具，這個案子最後確實有完成依照性平法該有的處分跟懲處，委員這一塊的建議，我們也會評估給委員參考。"],["林委員倩綺：本席是從這個個案看到一個整體的問題，你們就這整體的概念，是不是做相關的討論跟研究，然後會後給本席一個相關的報告？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，沒問題，謝謝、謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：那三個月，可以嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，三個月內我們提供，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩三個月之內提供報告給林委員，謝謝。","接下來請黃建賓委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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讓我們有請國發會主委我們再請葉主委委員長主委主委長"},{"start":24.704,"end":53.405,"text":"主委那今天是你第一次到我們委員會來接受備詢那我想國安會深具的就是國家整個發展的一些重責大任所以國安會對於所有產業或者是所有關於到人民的一些基本福利的一些照顧這個是國安會責無旁貸的責任那事實上我想要跟主委聊的就是說我們都知道"},{"start":54.105,"end":69.877,"text":"那台灣現在整個產業呈現的是非常的兩極也就是說如果是在AI是在晶片的相關的產業鏈那大概是一片龍井但是在這個龍井之外其他的產業大概"},{"start":71.158,"end":97.633,"text":"看起來就沒有這樣的一個盛況看起來現在的除了科技產業外其他的產業現在是辛苦的那這個辛苦的來自於台灣的缺工問題因為少子化的問題因為台灣人台灣年輕學子他們就業選擇的問題讓整個缺工是越來越嚴重所以我事實上也整理了一些數據的一個資料那我們看到說"},{"start":98.493,"end":119.415,"text":"基本上如果以這個趨勢來看的話台灣的這樣的一個勞動力的一個人口會越來越少大概每年會減少18萬的一個勞動力所以要怎麼去補這樣勞動力的一個缺口這個是我們國發會必須要認真去思考的問題那我想請教我們主委你怎麼去看待這件事情"},{"start":120.211,"end":149.591,"text":"台湾缺工的问题就有如委员说的是非常严重那尤其是在55岁以上的那个劳餐率这个部分来讲的话相对的也不是一个很那个数字看起来不是很漂亮然后我国的那个虽然说最近这几年那个中高龄的那个劳餐有呈现上升的现象但55岁以上的那个比例仍然比日本韩国新加坡跟美国都还要低而且年龄越高的话那差距越大"},{"start":150.191,"end":174.162,"text":"那在这边我们会建议就是说可能会希望就是说能够完善法令跟活化那个劳动力那这个部分的话会希望就是说提早让那个协商就是劳资双方提早协商那个延后退休这个部分那另外一个就是重新设计工作内容那提供在地全时或者是部分工时的一些工作"},{"start":174.582,"end":194.882,"text":"我想跟主委來說啦事實上台灣人在就業選擇的話因為現在已經是一個全球市場所以事實上很多人他事實上他在選擇工作的時候他可能在網路上就可以工作所以他可能所以就是說我同樣的我付出我的時間那我未必是要變受僱於人"},{"start":195.442,"end":215.295,"text":"有這樣的一個趨勢這個也是說台灣在應應全球化的趨勢的時候我們的台灣人有跟上這樣的腳步但是呢傳統的工作工作也要有人做包括3K產業包括我們現在跟目前為止都沒有開放的就像是餐飲服務業"},{"start":216.978,"end":235.326,"text":"餐飲服務業這一塊沒有開放事實上對於我們整個在推就是說這種基層的服務業我們台灣在目前腳步是走不出去走不出去我們擔心我們當然是擔心說這個會取代了本勞台灣的自己的就業機會"},{"start":236.747,"end":250.895,"text":"但是我覺得我們台灣我們事實上就是接近日本跟韓國日本跟韓國他們開放餐飲業跟旅宿業服務業事實上也已經心知有念了而且韓國甚至還會針對這一些"},{"start":254.097,"end":272.106,"text":"移工到韓國他還要設一個培訓機構而且甚至要先用考試的讓他先先做一個篩選然後讓他進來我覺得台灣事實上某些程度上我們為了讓整個產業事實上可以補足他的這個勞動力缺口我覺得至少在這一塊我們應該"},{"start":274.407,"end":297.521,"text":"就對在走啦 韓國 日本總是他們的民族性跟我們比較相仿嘛 你如果說我們歐美可能我們那些調性會比較不一樣民族性看起來日韓 我們經濟發展的趨勢也是差不多所以事實上這個腳步是可以跟著走的 也不是我們台灣先創但是這個 我覺得國發會已經考慮看了好不好"},{"start":299.762,"end":317.152,"text":"因為現在國發會我們這邊也在考慮說那個橋外生是不是可以慢慢的迎接進來所謂的旅宿業那在那個工作項目這個部分就工作範疇的話我們也希望說能夠開放中階技術的這些工作給橋外生"},{"start":317.532,"end":343.097,"text":"那我们也会持续的就是利用专案媒合旅宿业的一些所需的人力那也会补助旅宿业的一些来做招募人力的一个需要那最重要就是我们会希望说利用一些科技的辅助来降低这些旅宿业的那个人力需求当然当然就是说科技进步有一些是可以用透过AI透过机器人来进一代但是很多传统的"},{"start":344.877,"end":354.941,"text":"勞動還是需要人力還是需要人勒你想說我認識一個專門就在在現場的渡假肉在萬華很有名的一家他也是沒人欠沒人渡假肉渡假肉這個動作"},{"start":360.863,"end":376.279,"text":"沒辦法用其他東西來取代還是要人力啊是是是好不好那事實上也要去檢討就是說事實上我們也規定說一家僱主他聘用外國人的一個上限我們過去就把它規定是50%那我覺得這個50%這個也是可以檢討"},{"start":379.202,"end":393.915,"text":"是不是在四度上如果他這個產業他真的都是可能是山械產業他可能是比較偏向重牢力的這一種的話我是覺得這可以檢討因為我們可以台灣人可以說我們站在"},{"start":395.977,"end":413.379,"text":"看領導階層的如果真的要付出勞力的這個50%這個數字是否需要到檢討的時候了我覺得這國安會應該要去思考看看目前勞動部其實正在規劃重新調整這個移工的比例跟配合限制還有他的機制"},{"start":414.56,"end":439.474,"text":"對我知道現在有在檢討所以我可能就想把這些問題說給你聽那第二個主委我想在短短的時間再跟你聊一個我們知道現在長照對現在第一少子化第二也是高齡化所以現在老人家的照顧一直是一個家庭非常重要的事情那如果他的現在有可能一些子女他可能"},{"start":441.718,"end":456.917,"text":"但是他可能沒有他工作的時間上他沒有辦法去照顧他的父母所以他可能選擇要讓他的父母到機構去接受衛福部所謂的一個機構的一個照顧的話那目前就針對我們針對這一個"},{"start":460.782,"end":470.333,"text":"比方說評估等級4級以上或者是身心障礙中度以上的部分我們市場政府有補助在過去112年的時候我們把6萬塊拉到12萬這個很好"},{"start":475.619,"end":492.347,"text":"這個很好 但是我想要跟主委講兩個狀況第一個就是說 到底機構的收費狀況是如何以我現在看起來啦 真的最少最少的差不多2萬5啦平均都差不多3萬5那裡 服務比較好的有可能到4、5萬所以我說最少最少2萬5那我們補助12萬 就是一個月補助1萬"},{"start":503.372,"end":517.584,"text":"事實上我覺得這個可以去檢討一件事情我覺得國發會可以去做就是說我們這個補助如果可以適度的提高你在配合他們有的年金現在最普遍的老人家可能他的老人今天就是8000塊"},{"start":519.565,"end":542.902,"text":"那如果我們補助適度提高可以到現在兩萬五的這樣的一個養護型的一個等級他的子女不用再負擔費用老人家可以靠自己的年輕家鄉政府的幫忙他就可以去機構住事實上可以減少很多需要被照顧的獨居老人在家裡他們缺少照顧而且去機構至少會有個陪伴"},{"start":543.823,"end":551.618,"text":"這件事我覺得政府也可以去考慮是不是適度來提高過去從6萬到12萬12萬有沒有可能再提高"},{"start":553.015,"end":577.311,"text":"因為這個是衛福部是主責但我們會跟衛福部來演講這件事太宗民意就說事實上整個政策的擬定都是國安會在抓所以主委你身責大任現在雖然是經濟委員會我一直很想講這個議題所以我在這裡還是跟主委去學了這議題國安會是不是可以站在你們抓政策的角度這個部分也來檢討一下 好不好好 感謝 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這本期非常感謝我們希望可以趕快完成這個工作那第三個本期提的這個新增262項是講說增加環境講習的規定"},{"start":120.812,"end":138.907,"text":"這個環境講解的意思就是說就像這個現在違反很多道路交通守則的祭典祭到一定程度之後就要去上課嘛那上課對大家來講當然就是一種麻煩嘛那這個麻煩它其實就是一種變相嚇阻的這樣一個效果那我想這個兆英從兆管法的角度來增加環境講習的規定一樣你這個在吊扣牌照跟罰環之間一樣有這種"},{"start":142.242,"end":160.194,"text":"中間的這樣子的一個違規情勢的時候要予以環境講習那這部分因為在書面報告裡面講得很清楚是不是請部長說明一下你們對於環境講習這樣的想法這邊支持委員的提案因為像空污法如果違反的話我們也是要求他們要去上課的真的齁好"},{"start":162.535,"end":181.878,"text":"那本期目前對於詢答的內容也非常滿意我們希望我特別要感謝一下我們廖偉強召委啊特派審的召應管制法剛剛部長都同意啊那我想這修法的時候會很順利我們希望這樣民生法案趕快來三讀之後來質詢感謝部長那我們還是要談一下太陽能光電板部長你也是桃園人對不對你會支持皮糖重電嗎"},{"start":183.099,"end":208.18,"text":"呃 基本上齁 這個過去已經發生過很多的案例啦齁那基本上因為皮糖其實它是有一定的一個功能啦齁那過去一開始有過但是後來我所知道是都不大接受了是啊 我們那時候本席還是桃園市市議員基本上是地方議會當中是強力的反對後來才幫這樣子的案件踩了煞車那最近又開始出現什麼水庫重電等等那當然其實都會有"},{"start":208.86,"end":228.11,"text":"一樣的疑慮嘛 包含水質如何來做確保光電板的退場機制等等它其實都是很大的問題所以現在很多的委員都希望比如說納入環評機制或什麼我希望部長要採好環境部的本位嘛好不好 我們三個方向來做簡單的提點就好第一個 選址跟審查制度啦它可能要比"},{"start":228.61,"end":249.437,"text":"本來更嚴格你一開始做政策鼓勵因為推動綠能這本行願意理解但他如果造成一些成本外部化的時候他本來就要與時俱進做調整所以審查制度的修訂可能是需要思考的第二個是很多委員都講過我就不贅述了廢棄物模組的回收跟處理系統的落實嘛它是一個高成本的問題我們很擔心很多的廠商只會開案但沒有辦法收場"},{"start":250.317,"end":265.324,"text":"造成很多的成本不可以外部化的這是本席的提醒第三個當然就是敏感的區域嘛水庫也好 皮湯也好 農地也好它的設置退場跟土地富裕的機制我想這都是要站在環境部的本位那麼未來大家再進入一些機制的討論的時候我希望部長就不用"},{"start":266.384,"end":293.398,"text":"顧慮其他政府的時候有時候我們就不管是勞動權也好環保權也好本來在過去經濟發展的本位裡面他是相對弱勢的但部長的角色很重要是就希望採好這樣立場我們把機制完善好避免外部化大家才對綠能政策的推動會比較放心可以嗎好時間有限我們就說到這邊謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝牛許廷委員發言先宣告待會羅廷維委員質詢完畢後休息用餐20分鐘休息後繼續開會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":997,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時3分）謝謝主席。彭部長有請。"],["彭部長啓明：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：彭部長午安，辛苦了。在今天除了光電板之外，噪音管制法也很重要，本席作為提案人，花一點點質詢的時間，我們提早把一些問題做釐清，後面在逐條的時候，速度可以加快。","我有看到環境部的報告，我們這次提噪音管制法修正大概幾個方向，第一個是主管機關，名字總要修，因為升格環境部，這應該沒有太大的問題。主要是第二十六條也有非常多的委員提，大概就是幾個方向，第一是提高罰鍰，第二個是加入吊扣牌照的機制，第三是本席提出的加入環境講習，分別就這幾件事情來做一下討論。","第一個，請教部長的意見，有關於噪音車橫行都會，造成破壞大家生活品質的這樣一個狀況，部長同不同意應該要予以嚴懲、重罰，以嚇阻相關行為。"],["彭部長啓明：同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：非常同意？"],["彭部長啓明：非常同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以，基本上各委員的版本只要能夠順利的整合，提高罰鍰都會支持嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是，支持。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們部裡面有沒有自己的版本？"],["彭部長啓明：目前沒有，我們都遵照委員的意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：部裡面沒有自己的版本，但是會支持委員的想法？"],["彭部長啓明：對，遵照委員的意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。第二個，有關於吊扣照的機制，部長，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：從地方環保局給我們的反映，他們非常認可這樣的制度。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以基本上尊重地方意見？其實部裡面應該也會從善如流，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為本席其實是希望吊扣牌照的機制要儘快來入法，而且其實我個人的意見是越嚴格越好，因為很多有條件搞噪音車的人大概也不怕你罰鍰，但是罰鍰是一定要做的，你不能不做，所以吊扣牌照摩托車輛等等，這樣才會有效嚇阻，謝謝，部長講得非常清楚。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個比較特別，因為其實剛剛前兩個您在部裡面的書面報告裡面也講得蠻清楚，就基本上都表示同意，本席非常感謝，我們希望可以趕快完成這個工作。第三個本席提的新增第二十六條第二項，是講說增加環境講習的規定，這個環境講習的意思就是說，就像現在違反很多道路交通守則記點記到一定程度之後就要去上課，上課對他來講，當然就是一種麻煩嘛，那這個麻煩其實就是一種變相嚇阻的效果。我想這個噪音從噪管法的角度來增加環境講習的規定，在吊扣牌照跟罰鍰之間，一樣有這種中間的這樣子違規情事的時候要予以環境講習，那這部分因為在書面報告裡面講得很清楚，是不是請部長說明一下，你們對於環境講習這樣的想法？"],["郭副司長孟芸：這邊支持委員的提案，因為像空污法如果違反的話，我們也是要求他們要去上課的。"],["牛委員煦庭：真的？"],["郭副司長孟芸：是。"],["彭部長啓明：對，同意。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，本席目前對於詢答的內容也非常滿意，我特別要感謝廖偉翔召委排審噪音管制法，剛剛部長都同意，我想這修法之後會很順利，我們希望這樣的民生法案趕快來三讀之後來執行。感謝部長。","我們還是要談一下太陽能光電板。部長，你也是桃園人對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：你會支持埤塘種電嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，這個過去已經發生過很多的案例，因為埤塘其實它是有一定的功能，過去一開始有過，但是後來我所知道是都不大接受了。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊，那時候本席還是桃園市市議員，基本上地方議會當初是強力的反對，幫這樣子的案件踩了煞車，最近又開始出現什麼水庫種電等等，當然其實都會有一樣的疑慮嘛，包含水質如何來做確保、光電板的退場機制等等，其實都是很大的問題，所以現在很多的委員都希望譬如說納入環評機制或什麼，我希望部長要踩好環境部的本位嘛，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們三個方向來做簡單的提點就好。第一個，選址跟審查制度可能要比本來更嚴格，你一開始做政策鼓勵，因為推動綠能，這本席願意理解，但如果造成了一些成本外部化的時候，本來就要與時俱進做調整，所以審查制度的修訂可能是需要思考的。第二個是很多委員都講過，我就不贅述了，廢棄物模組的回收跟處理系統的落實，這是一個高成本的問題，我們很擔心很多的廠商只會開案，但沒有辦法收場，造成很多的成本，不可以外部化的，這是本席的提醒。第三個當然就是敏感的區域，水庫也好、埤塘也好、農地也好，它的設置退場跟土地復育的機制。","我想這都是要站在環境部的本位，那麼未來大家在進入一些機制討論的時候，我希望部長就不用顧慮其他政府，有時候不管是勞動權也好、環保權也好，本來在過去經濟發展的本位裡面，他是相對弱勢的，但部長的角色很重要，希望踩好這樣立場，我們把機制完善，避免外部化，大家才對綠能政策的推動會比較放心，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：時間有限，我們就說到這邊，謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員發言。","先宣告：待會羅廷瑋委員質詢完畢後，休息用餐20分鐘，休息後繼續開會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 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感謝主席 麻煩請環境部彭部長"},{"start":11.693,"end":39.99,"text":"請彭部長好 部長好 部長很務實的來探討光電板的一個部分我延續剛剛召委的一個問題喔我先請教現在全台灣到底有多少光電板以重量來看這個要去算一下啦因為總共大概是15GW啦是15GW那重量 因為我們現在討論的是光電板現在發電以及未來20年後可能要清除的所以應該要現在算出來可以盤點出來現在台灣多少光電板嘛"},{"start":41.391,"end":67.992,"text":"呃 這個因為它每一個順滯的時間不一樣排出的時間也不一樣所以我們到目前為止都不知道此時此刻台灣有多少光電板呃 15Gigawatt所以我們大概可以算推算呃 這個請能源署來算來 還是能源署 來經濟部次長因為那個片有大有小來 沒有問題大小這是 但是這很務實我們今天算科學 科學 數學這都很務實的數字現在台灣此時此刻有多少光電板重量來講"},{"start":71.489,"end":92.155,"text":"這個重量不知道要計算一下也不知道好基本上我們現在設置了15.1GW是我都清楚但是我現在要了解的是說有多少為什麼會問這個問題因為再來接下來第二這次颱風毀損了多少光電板以我們現在看到的是有2000公噸的廢棄物是不是"},{"start":94.87,"end":107.178,"text":"兩千噸嘛那兩千噸的廢棄物平均要處理因為有近有遠有這個難易處理兩千噸的廢棄物要處理要花費多少錢有沒有推估"},{"start":108.988,"end":127.255,"text":"因為這個是他光電業者跟回收業者的商業行為有的貴有的便宜有的一公斤可能只要20幾塊有的要開到30幾塊不一定但我的意思是說2000噸的這個處理廢棄物推估要花多少費用我所知道大概花幾億左右幾億左右幾億是幾億"},{"start":130.697,"end":148.767,"text":"不是 部長為什麼會問這個問題 很簡單嘛業者羊毛出在羊身上 如果說這一次破損了兩千公噸高達幾億元的部分那會不會業者他沒有辦法負擔 然後他到時候就是擺爛變爛攤子不會不會 那以及現在全台灣到底有幾公噸的光電板"},{"start":149.747,"end":170.508,"text":"因為每年都會有颱風那我們想要了解的是說我們現在到底不定時炸彈今年因為颱風來而毀損了2000噸的廢棄物造成幾億的額外的支出那未來我們如果說以之後要報廢的光電板來算那這幾年我們就真的只能祈禱台灣都風調雨順 國泰民安"},{"start":173.291,"end":202.309,"text":"不然今年破損兩千噸 明年破損一千噸那每年是不是都會有業者增加的額外的成本收入那這一些都應該是主管機關去掌握跟要求我們才能夠確保是說有沒有辦法推行這個政策的時候確實業者能夠到最後處理這些廢棄物嗎包委員 這個兩千噸目前我們算到平均的價格大概是一噸是上萬塊所以整個這次兩千多噸他們自己要負擔六億左右六億左右 對"},{"start":203.129,"end":221.932,"text":"不會讓他們逃掉吧當然不會啊因為他們基本上跟能源署都有簽約的你先講不會啦我先姑且相信不過再來我們看到2032年環境部最拼評估太陽能的發電廢棄物高達5萬公噸剛講2000公噸就要花6億那5萬公噸要花多少錢你剛剛講一個平均30塊5萬公噸"},{"start":231.937,"end":233.298,"text":"15億喔 還是150億150億那有沒有算過這150億誰買單基本上他如果是正常廚藝的話因為他們有交給如果2039年"},{"start":247.779,"end":268.624,"text":"每公會將近10萬噸10萬公噸的廢棄物1公噸剛你講了1公斤30塊10萬公噸會是300億對不對也就是剛剛我們稍微有講到就是說你實際的處理成本可能到了397億可是你現在收的回收清潔費每千瓦只有1000塊"},{"start":269.986,"end":292.159,"text":"所以你平均差別有兩倍以上 差了兩百多億那這兩百多億要誰買單報告委員 因為現在量比較少所以量供需之間 因為他才開始在做從來沒有那麼大量過所以第一個是現在的市場上還不均衡那我們預期未來會均衡當然啦 那個價格應該是要把它調升啦"},{"start":293.069,"end":317.214,"text":"你說回收的清潔費應該要調升我們其實有跟能源署在討論過這個事情因為2019年以前你設的光電板的業者是不是連繳回收清潔費都沒繳是沒錯是嗎那你現在制度上面已經有公平性的一個缺陷你現在又持續的增加可是我們增加的這個回收清潔費也都沒有收足額日本已經出來了"},{"start":318.254,"end":340.866,"text":"上個月的新聞日本就講說光電板的報廢潮會是一個未來非常嚴重而且是燙手的山芋尤其日本講說到2035年左右是會有50萬公噸的光電板日本的業者日本的這個能源大臣直接講啊環境大臣環境大臣直接講啊回收費用誰出無人買單啊"},{"start":342.47,"end":360.631,"text":"所以如果說我們現在已經看到可能10年20年左右的問題就已經有那麼龐大的一個成本支出而現在我們的經濟部相關的政策就是一直來光電光電來使用來申請但是光電會面臨到兩個問題第一問題是可能颱風每年都來一次來的颱風就會回損"},{"start":364.478,"end":389.176,"text":"這次是極端啦不是每一次都會那麼多因為以前也沒那麼多過所以你也沒有辦法保證我們的極端氣候只會越來越多越來越少沒有辦法保證嘛這是第一個我本席當然不希望我也希望台灣風調也順國泰民安但是實際今年已經面臨到這樣的問題啦在今年以前也沒有人也沒有人知道說現在我們光電板那麼的脆弱一次颱風來就會有那麼大量的一個破損"},{"start":390.197,"end":414.688,"text":"那第二個部分是我們看到可能預期的將來我們至少都還有幾十年可以活吧我們預期的將來10年20年左右就會有幾百億的處理費用應該要做處理而這些處理費用如果沒有預售的話到時候誰買單不知道業者他現在賺錢賺得很開心但會不會他到了那時間點之後他就雙手一攤沒錢了脫產了變賣了"},{"start":417.486,"end":422.52,"text":"他政府公司關閉了那逃走了怎麼辦還是要換一個人頭那這誰要處理"},{"start":426.67,"end":451.278,"text":"部長這是不是一個問題我相信這是我們共同應該要面對的問題我認為報告委員其實這個回收你不要把它當成廢棄物啦所以我們在未來要修雙法的時候也希望委員來支持我認同啊能夠利用回收再利用我當然認同但是現在就很務實的層面就是說那你要告訴我你剛剛算了每公斤30元是不是就最低標準你至少你要花每公斤30元處理成本嘛"},{"start":451.878,"end":478.833,"text":"那如果說真的是這個處理成本就在這邊的話那就是鐵打的成本在那裡那你就要回推是說那你現在到底有此時此刻多少噸未來要花每公斤30元你應該這樣回頭來去算你就可以算得出你現在應該預期我們要怎麼樣解決這個問題嘛當然當然也因此剛剛召委才提出來您也講了應該要去算怎麼樣我們要來面臨到這個問題啊是這是一個債務模型的問題"},{"start":479.673,"end":487.173,"text":"沒錯 那這個辦法誰要來提出我們能源署跟我們循環署他們就是在磋商這個事情什麼時候可以提出"},{"start":488.584,"end":512.214,"text":"一個具體可行這個是減碳足跡我們講說淨零碳排的時候我們要看減碳路徑那一樣光電板的設置我們現在也沒有說反對光電板喔但我的意思是說你要預先設想20年後15年後廢棄的光電板怎麼處理那你的廢棄光電板處理路徑什麼時候可以提出我們剛剛兩個數都有代表說是年底之前提出方案"},{"start":512.694,"end":517.677,"text":"好 提出方案 我們要再來檢視具體與否 以及真的是否可行因為我們都關注到這個問題了對 謝謝謝謝洪夢凱委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時54分）感謝主席，麻煩請環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。很務實地來探討光電板的部分，我延續剛剛召委的問題，先請教現在全臺灣到底有多少光電板？以重量來看。"],["彭部長啓明：這個要去算一下，因為總共大概是15GW。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那重量？因為我們現在討論是光電板，現在發電以及未來二十年後可能要清除的，所以應該要算出來、盤點出來現在臺灣有多少光電板？"],["彭部長啓明：因為它每一個設置的時間不一樣，排除的時間也不一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們到目前為止都不知道此時此刻臺灣有多少光電板？"],["彭部長啓明：15GW，所以我們大概可以算……"],["洪委員孟楷：推算。"],["彭部長啓明：請能源署來算，他們比較快。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是能源署。"],["彭部長啓明：多少片？"],["洪委員孟楷：經濟部次長。"],["彭部長啓明：因為那個片有大有小啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有問題，大小這是……但是這很務實，我們今天算科學、數學，這都是很務實的數字。臺灣此時此刻有多少光電板？以重量來講。不知道？"],["賴次長建信：這個重量我要計算一下，大概……"],["洪委員孟楷：也不知道？"],["賴次長建信：基本上我們現在設置了15.1GW，那大概……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我都清楚，但是我現在要了解的是有多少？為什麼我會問這個問題，因為接下來，第二，這一次颱風毀損了多少光電板，以我們現在看到的是有2,000公噸的廢棄物，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，2,000噸。"],["洪委員孟楷：2,000噸嘛！2,000噸的廢棄物的處理，因為有近有遠及有難易等因素，2,000噸廢棄物的處理，平均要花費多少錢？有沒有推估？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個是光電業者跟回收業者的商業行為，有的貴，有的便宜，便宜有的1公斤可能只要二十幾塊，有的要開到三十幾塊不一定。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但我的意思是2,000噸廢棄物的處理，推估要花多少費用？"],["彭部長啓明：我所知道大概花幾億左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：幾億左右，幾億是幾億？部長，為什麼我會問這個問題？很簡單嘛！業者羊毛出在羊身上，如果這一次破損了2,000公噸高達幾億元，業者會不會沒有辦法負擔，到時候就是擺爛、變爛攤子？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在全臺灣到底有幾公噸的光電板？因為每年都會有颱風，我們想要了解的是現在的不定時炸彈，今年因為颱風來而毀損了2,000噸的廢棄物，造成幾億的額外支出，未來如果以之後要報廢的光電板來算，這幾年我們就真的只能祈禱臺灣都風調雨順，國泰民安喔！不然今年破損2,000噸，明年破損1,000噸，每年是不是都會有業者增加的額外成本，這一些都應該是主管機關去掌握跟要求，我們才能夠確保在推行這個政策的時候，業者最後確實能夠處理這些廢棄物。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於這個2,000噸，目前我們算到平均的價格大概1噸是3萬塊，所以這次的兩千多噸，他們自己要負擔6億左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：6億左右？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會讓他們逃掉吧？"],["彭部長啓明：當然不會，因為他們基本上跟能源署都有簽約。"],["洪委員孟楷：你先講不會，我先姑且相信。我們看到2032年，環境部最近評估太陽能的發電廢棄物高達5萬公噸，剛剛講2,000公噸就要花6億，那5萬公噸要花多少錢？以你剛剛講1個平均30塊，5萬公噸15億？還是150億？"],["彭部長啓明：150億。"],["洪委員孟楷：150億？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有沒有算過這150億誰買單？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上如果是正常除役的話，因為他們有繳給能源署……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果2039年會將近10萬噸，10萬公噸的廢棄物，剛剛你講了1公斤30塊，10萬公噸會是300億，對不對？也就是剛剛召委有講到，實際的處理成本可能到了397億嘛！可是你現在收的回收清潔費每千瓦只有1,000塊，所以平均差別有兩倍以上，差了兩百多億，這兩百多億要誰買單？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為現在的量比較少，量的供需之間因為才開始在做，從來沒有那麼大量，所以第一個是現在的市場上還不均衡，我們預期未來會均衡，當然那個價格應該要調升啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：你說回收的清潔費應該要調升？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們其實有跟能源署討論過這個事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：2019年以前設的光電板業者，是不是連回收清潔費都沒繳？"],["彭部長啓明：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！現在制度上面已經有公平性的缺陷，你又持續地增加，可是增加的回收清潔費也都沒有收足額。日本上個月的新聞就說，光電板的報廢潮未來會非常嚴重而且是燙手山芋，尤其日本講說到2035年左右，會有50萬公噸的光電板，日本的這個能源大臣直接講……"],["彭部長啓明：環境大臣。"],["洪委員孟楷：環境大臣直接講，回收費用誰出？無人買單。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以如果說我們現在已經看到可能10年、20年左右的問題，就已經有那麼龐大的成本支出，而現在我們經濟部相關的政策就是一直讓光電來使用、來申請，但是光電會面臨到兩個問題，第一個問題是可能颱風每年都來，一次來的颱風就會毀損有上千萬噸……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這次是極端啦，不是每一次都會那麼多，因為以前也沒那麼多過。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，所以你也沒有辦法保證，我們極端氣候只會越來越多或愈來愈少。"],["彭部長啓明：當然沒有辦法保證。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是第一個，我本席當然不希望，我也希望臺灣風調雨順，國泰民安，但是實際今年已經面臨到這樣的問題，在今年以前也沒有人知道說，原來我們的光電板那麼的脆弱，一次颱風來就會有那麼大量的破損。","第二個部分是我們看到可能預期的將來，我們至少都還有幾十年可以活吧！我們預期將來10年、20年左右就會有幾百億的處理費用，應該要做處理，而這些處理費用如果沒有預收的話，到時候誰買單不知道，業者現在賺錢賺得很開心，但會不會他到了那時間點之後，他就雙手一攤沒錢了、脫產了、變賣了、公司關閉了，逃走了怎麼辦？還是說他換了一個人頭？這誰要處理？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個在能源署……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是不是一個問題？我相信這是我們共同應該要面對的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個回收，你不要把它當成廢棄物啦，所以我們在未來要修雙法的時候，也希望委員來支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：我認同啊，能夠回收再利用，我當然認同，但是現在就很務實的層面，那你要告訴我，你剛剛算的每公斤30元是不是就最低標準，你至少要花每公斤30元處理成本嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：但是未來的價格會降。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說真的是處理成本就在這邊的話，那就是鐵打的成本在那裡，你就要回推說現在到底此時此刻有多少噸，未來要花每公斤30元，你應該這樣回頭去算，就可以算得出你現在應該預期我們要怎麼樣解決這個問題。"],["彭部長啓明：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：也因此剛剛召委才提出來，您也講了應該要去算我們要怎麼樣來面臨這個問題。"],["彭部長啓明：是，這是一個財務模型的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒錯，那這個辦法誰要來提出？"],["彭部長啓明：我們能源署跟循環署就是在磋商這個事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以提出一個具體可行方案？這個是減碳足跡，我們講說淨零碳排的時候，我們要看減碳路徑，那一樣光電板的設置，我們現在也沒有說反對光電板，但我的意思是說，你要預先設想20年後、15年後廢棄的光電板怎麼處理，你的廢棄光電板處理路徑什麼時候可以提出？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們剛剛兩個署都有代表說是年底之前提出方案。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，提出方案，我們要再來檢視具體與否，以及是否真的可行。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，因為我們都關注到這個問題了。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員發言。","請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b764b3cfcd565b4a26d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d24c8ff0ad0dbab0055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:58:29 - 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那是請多久之內可以給我一個報告呢"},{"start":303.402,"end":323.551,"text":"是不是委員我們有三個月時間我們來收集資料研擬然後提出比較完整的可不可以加速兩個月好嗎兩個月好那我們等您喔就算是沒有趕上這一波這一條我們單獨我相信教文委員都會支持可以修好不好我們來努力是好好謝謝好謝謝范委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時58分）請朱次長。"],["主席：有請朱次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["范委員雲：朱次長，剛剛王委員問到教育部減少的經費，你應該要說清楚，是因為財劃法。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["范委員雲：地方增加了很多錢，就教育法規，教育原本就是地方事務，過去不足的部分是中央補助，那些少的部分，以後教育部要講清楚，是地方增加這麼多經費，應該由地方出的就是地方出，好不好？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["范委員雲：不要就是變成魚目混珠，說是國防預算排擠了教育經費。"],["朱次長俊彰：不是，真的是因為財劃法的關係。"],["范委員雲：好。我今天想問的題目跟今天這個退休金有關，我訴求的就是不要讓追訴期的限制阻礙學生時期遭性侵者追尋正義。","要先跟大家講一個故事，2022年我跟賴品妤、人本基金會開記者會，因為當時我們發現有一位狼師50歲就退休了，他在退休前曾經在臺中、臺南很多所國小教書，侵害多名學生。情節重大到我講一個其中最輕的情節，午休的時間下令同學都臉朝下趴著睡，再以健康教育為由摸女學生的胸部，甚至整個伸到衣服裡面摸，其他的情節有興趣看的可以自己看我的PPT，更嚴重的情節還有，是多個學生受害。後來受害者成年之後出面指控，找到人本基金會跟我們，然後學校性平會在調查之後確定性侵害成立，決議終身解聘。問題是次長應該知道，這個狼師因為已經退休，這個處分居然沒辦法有任何影響，他每個月可以繼續爽領退休金。朱次長，您覺得對當年受害學生後來勇敢站出來之後，這樣子是有公道的嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，據我了解，目前在退輔條例第八十條，針對如果經過校園性平會調查，涉及到性侵害解聘的部分應該是會自始追回他的退休金。"],["范委員雲：所以您認為受性平會解聘的應該要收回退休金？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["范委員雲：那是針對現職，如果已經退休的呢？像這個案例。"],["朱次長俊彰：退休的我們也是追回。"],["范委員雲：也追回？"],["朱次長俊彰：現在依照第八十條應該是要追回，這是應該有的態度。"],["范委員雲：所以次長也認同追回？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["范委員雲：退休了也要追回？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["范委員雲：好，現在我就告訴你，我們現在的法規還有一個部分跟您講的不一樣，如果是在職教師，依教師法第十四條被解聘的話就失去教師資格，立刻取消退休金；如果是退休教師，只有在沒有超過追訴期的時候，司法判刑確定才能夠剝奪並取消退休金，這是第八十條，沒錯。像我剛剛講的那個案例，因為已經過了刑法追訴期，雖然學校的調查成立，而且也把他象徵性的解聘，可是他還是爽領退休金。朱次長非常認同我的講法，我請教育部研議一下，既然有人要修關於退休金的，是不是也能夠在這個機會中研議一下第八十條？在判處有期徒刑以上之刑確定者，把這個空間留下來，對於已經超過追訴期，沒有辦法在法律上得到一個公道的，可是經學校行政判斷，然後地方局處都認定應該還是要取消教師資格者，是不是能夠真正的處罰他，取消他的退休金呢？"],["朱次長俊彰：是，謝謝委員的建議。我想目前針對校園性平事件的處理，不管在學校或教育部，都有一個很嚴謹的過程。"],["范委員雲：是。"],["朱次長俊彰：雖然它不屬於刑事的確認判決，但是因為它也是經過相當嚴謹的過程，我們應該可以來研議，針對已經過了刑事的訴訟期，但是確實有……"],["范委員雲：就是行政調查確定……"],["朱次長俊彰：對，我們是不是可以啟動……"],["范委員雲：而且已經取消他的教職員資格……"],["朱次長俊彰：這個我們會來研議。"],["范委員雲：也應該要處罰，好嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["范委員雲：這就是第八十條規定的。請問多久之內可以給我一個報告呢？"],["朱次長俊彰：委員，是不是給我們3個月時間，我們來蒐集資料研擬，然後提出比較完整的……"],["范委員雲：可不可以加速，兩個月，好嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，我們兩個月內……"],["范委員雲：那我們等您！就算是沒有趕上這一波，這一條單獨……我相信教文委員都會支持可以修，好不好？"],["朱次長俊彰：是，我們來努力。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范委員。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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我們先處理會議時間那上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止好 請開始好 謝謝主席請教育部次長好 請朱次長我也請我們的權敘部次長好 請懷次長"},{"start":24.386,"end":43.571,"text":"我先請教教育部就是這兩天大家非常關心的就是在一個清涵大學生他辦休學之後因為一萬八千塊錢的學雜費他選擇了輕生剛才也有委員來請教育次長但是我看次長所講的話"},{"start":45.239,"end":63.785,"text":"比如說如果學校多問一句恐怕就不會發生或者說這個橫向聯繫有疏失感覺我們教育部看待這件事情千錯萬錯好像都是第一線校務人員的錯但是在制度面"},{"start":64.705,"end":89.824,"text":"如果碰到這樣的一個清寒的學生不管他是需要救助也好或者是他因此而要辦理休學也好除了在我們第一線比如說這件事是學務處跟教務處橫向聯繫確實失靈但是在制度上我們教育部可以做任何的補強嗎"},{"start":91.405,"end":118.304,"text":"是 謝謝委員提醒其實我們現在也有在思考上次趙偉也有跟我們指導就是說在他從高中升大學的時候因為我們對於中低收青函學生都有一些學長費的減免那如果是過去在高中有被介入或是一些處遇性的學生我們也有相關的一個資料我想這個部分我們應該更主動的而不是只有仰賴學校的一個橫向連結所以這一塊我們快來加強"},{"start":120.74,"end":144.665,"text":"對 除了這個橫向聯繫就是學校的第一線的部分要加強之外其實包含剛才講的他從高中升大學他是不是仍然具有棄寒學生的一個身份或者是其實我們不管是公私立大學其實都有很多相關的救助而且應該讓所有的學生所有的學生都了解"},{"start":145.165,"end":163.898,"text":"都了解說事實上當他覺得他走上一個絕路的時候其實只要他願意提出是可以得到有人伸出援手的所以我覺得這一點就是說可能很多學生他的一個資訊的落差跟封閉那所以我才說在制度上我們怎麼樣讓校園的捕獲網不要每一次在檢討的時候就會變成只是推向第一線的學校他們處理不當"},{"start":175.066,"end":189.094,"text":"所以我覺得以後不要再發生這樣的事情請教育部能夠有一套比較清楚的這樣的一個制度另外呢 我想剛才也有很多的委員去詢問到我們這一次的對於退休教師不管是他的退休金應該按照消費者物價指數聯動"},{"start":201.661,"end":217.051,"text":"現在可以看到各個委員可能他有2%、3%、5%各個不同的版本但是他的出發點動機都是基於對於這些退休的教師們在整個物價上漲的過程裡面能夠讓他確保他的生活"},{"start":222.555,"end":228.539,"text":"那另外大家都提到其實每一次從年改開始啊就在講說哎呀這會讓我們退府基金破產啊這是讓我們的這個政府財政更加惡化其實我聽到這些話我都覺得這是政府的推託之詞為什麼"},{"start":241.187,"end":264.856,"text":"我們已經講過 比如說台電 台電現在的虧損不就是錯誤的能源政策嗎那只要你改變這個政策 台電就不需要一年虧兩千億 三千億啊我們整個這次的年改下來一億住到退府基金 這麼多年來退府一億住多少 也不過兩千多億啊你台電一年就會虧到兩千億以上耶"},{"start":265.416,"end":289.601,"text":"一年就要虧到兩千以上另外 剛才我就在我們的隔壁國防外交委員會 質詢什麼呢我們國界國照海昆號一個海昆號 花將近五百億新台幣五百億 到現在仍然沒有辦法交件可是同一時間 日本的這個蒼金號下水"},{"start":291.882,"end":309.936,"text":"148億不到150億所以我說我們幹嘛這樣子浪費納稅人的錢我們直接跟日本買好了 又可以下水而且呢 它的造價遠遠低於我們的造價我說算一算 你要造7艘可以節省將近1800億"},{"start":312.097,"end":334.973,"text":"可以節省一千八百億 然後我們這樣一直搞 一直搞 一直搞花這麼多的錢 還不能刪喔不要說不能刪 還不能動喔所以我覺得這一點呢事實上我覺得不要再每一次用這種方式用這種方式好像一副你對於這些退休教士或退休公教人員好像他們就是拖垮政府財政你怎麼不去檢討這些 我剛才以上所述的"},{"start":335.513,"end":351.973,"text":"另外一個 次長有一個很重要 剛才特別提到很重要 為什麼大家提到 要讓消費者物價指數去連動退休的教師我現在講現役的教師"},{"start":355.277,"end":379.218,"text":"我們每一年消費者物價指數要漲多少我們的導師費我們的高中以下的導師費已經連續動漲13年之久啊所以為什麼大家不想當導師當導師其實責任很重大我不用再贅述了最近的教師荒"},{"start":380.559,"end":409.33,"text":"其實就已經非常明顯年輕人也不想投入就算拿到教師證他也不要再去徵事了好那所以如果說我們其實我們照顧退休老師我們也應該去看現在的第一線的老師他碰到什麼樣的問題導師費動漲13年所以我想請問一下教育部這是很多我們的教師團體爭取教育部有沒有要"},{"start":409.91,"end":435.66,"text":"準備研議改善是 謝謝委員的指導我想不僅是只有導師費包含幾位委員在關心終點費的問題目前教育部我們都已經有在評估了而且我們方向上是希望能夠爭取到支持把它調高那這塊我們現在也在收集意見跟考量校內不同職級的部分我想這塊是教育部教育部要期期 我告訴你"},{"start":438.602,"end":464.802,"text":"明年教育部的預算是不是少很多是不是少很多我們都說窮不能窮孩子窮不能窮教育 苦不能苦孩子結果教育部因為國防的經費大幅的提高結果你們教育部相對的你看國教署就少了138億所以我要講的是我們其實應該花更多的資源在教育上而像我剛才說的你說終點費也是一樣"},{"start":467.283,"end":493.069,"text":"導師費也是一樣現在真的像代理老師有很多代理老師現在嚴重缺乏願意代理一定現在可能代理十年以上啦然後代理老師還要去當導師對不對那薪水就已經很微薄然後導師費一個月只有三千塊所以我希望能夠你有一個期程你明年是不可能增加是嗎"},{"start":495.441,"end":516.131,"text":"你現在還要等一年 一年多的我們其實經費的部分會減少其實不是我們使者減少而是因為財發法的一些分配問題但是如果說我們一旦決定要能夠調高導資費跟終點費的話我想教一部我們自己內部也會盡量沒有 所以次長你認為應不應該調高"},{"start":520.835,"end":527.299,"text":"如果以我個人來講我身為三個小孩子的爸爸當然希望導師人這麼辛苦我是希望能夠盡量幫他們爭取"},{"start":529.169,"end":550.508,"text":"我覺得如果大家都覺得應該要調了實在是時間那麼久不調不合理的時候我覺得應該做就要做該花的錢這個是我們該花的錢好不好我們會積極來爭取好不好我還是很希望說即便明年的預算沒有但是我們想什麼樣的方法"},{"start":552.95,"end":563.981,"text":"來讓這些第一線的導師能夠他們得到合理的一個酬勞好不好好謝謝委員知道好謝謝王委員那接下來請范雲委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時49分）謝謝主席，請教育部次長。"],["主席：請朱次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我也請銓敘部次長。"],["主席：請懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我先請教教育部，這兩天大家非常關心的是，一個清寒大學生辦休學之後，因為1萬8,000塊錢的學雜費，他選擇了輕生。剛才也有委員就教於次長，但是我看次長所講的話，比如說，如果學校多問一句，恐怕就不會發生，或者說橫向聯繫有疏失，感覺教育部看待這件事情，千錯萬錯好像都是第一線校務人員的錯，但是在制度面，如果碰到清寒的學生，不管他是需要救助也好，或者是他因此而要辦理休學也好，除了在第一線，比如這件事是學務處跟教務處橫向聯繫確實失靈，但是在制度上，教育部可以做任何的補強嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員提醒。其實我們現在也有在思考，上次召委也有跟我們指導，就是在高中升大學的時候，因為我們對於中低收清寒學生都有一些學雜費的減免，如果是過去在高中有被介入，或是一些處遇性的學生，我們也有相關的資料。我想這個部分我們應該更主動，而不是只有仰賴學校的橫向連結，所以這一塊我們會來加強。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，除了橫向聯繫，就是第一線學校的部分要加強之外，其實包含剛剛講的，他從高中升大學是不是仍然具有清寒學生的身分？或者是其實公私立大學都有很多相關的救助，而且應該讓所有的學生都了解，事實上，當他覺得他得走上絕路的時候，只要他願意提出，是有人會伸出援手的。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得這一點可能有很多學生資訊落差跟封閉，所以我才說在制度上，我們怎麼樣讓校園的補破網？不要每一次在檢討的時候，就會變成只是推向第一線的學校說他們處理不當，所以我覺得以後不要再發生這樣的事情，請教育部能夠有一套比較清楚的制度。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。另外，剛才也有很多委員詢問到這一次對於退休教師的退休金應該按照消費者物價指數連動，現在可以看到各個委員的提案，可能有2%、3%、5%不同的版本，但是出發點、動機都是基於在整個物價上漲的過程裡面，能夠確保這些退休的教師們的生活。另外，大家都提到，其實每一次從年改開始就在說，哎呀，這會讓退撫基金破產、政府財政更加惡化，其實我聽到這些話都覺得是政府的推託之詞，為什麼？我們已經講過，比如台電現在的虧損不就是錯誤的能源政策嗎？只要你改變這個政策，台電就不需要一年虧2,000億、3,000億啊！這一次的年改下來挹注到退撫基金，這麼多年來挹注多少？也不過兩千多億啊！台電一年就要虧到2,000億以上、一年就要虧到2,000億以上！","另外，剛才我在隔壁的外交及國防委員會質詢什麼呢？國艦國造海鯤號，一個海鯤號花將近500億，新臺幣500億，到現在仍然沒有辦法交艦，可是同一時間日本的蒼鯨號下水，只要148億、不到150億，所以我說我們幹嘛這樣子浪費納稅人的錢？我們直接跟日本買好了，又可以下水而且造價遠遠低於我們的。我說算一算，你要造7艘，可以節省將近1,800億、可以節省1,800億！然後我們這樣一直搞、一直搞、一直搞，花這麼多的錢還不能刪，不要說不能刪，還不能凍！對於這一點，事實上我覺得不要再每次用這種方式，用這種方式好像一副就是這些退休教師或退休公教人員拖垮政府財政，那你怎麼不去檢討以上所述的這些？","此外，請教教育部次長，有一個很重要的是，剛才特別提到這個很重要，為什麼大家提到要讓退休教師的年金連動消費者物價指數？好，我現在講現役的教師，每一年消費者物價指數要漲多少？高中以下的導師費已經連續凍漲13年之久，為什麼大家不想當導師？當導師其實責任很重大，我不用再贅述了，最近的教師荒其實就已經非常明顯，年輕人也不想投入，就算拿到教師證也不要再去甄試了。如果我們要照顧退休老師，也應該去看現在第一線的老師碰到什麼樣的問題，導師費凍漲13年，這是很多教師團體爭取的，所以我想請問一下，教育部有沒有要準備研議改善？"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員的指導，我想不僅是只有導師費，包含幾位委員也在關心鐘點費的問題，目前教育部都已經有在評估了，而且我們方向上是希望能夠爭取到支持把它調高，這一塊我們現在也在蒐集意見，跟考量校內不同職級的部分，我想這塊是教育部要爭取的。"],["王委員鴻薇：教育部要積極。明年教育部的預算是不是少很多？是不是少很多？我們都說窮不能窮教育，苦不能苦孩子，教育部因為國防的經費大幅提高，結果相對的教育部國教署就少了138億。我要講的是我們其實應該花更多的資源在教育上，而像我剛才說的導師費、你說鐘點費也是一樣。現在代理老師真的嚴重缺乏，願意代理的現在可能都代理10年以上了，然後代理老師還要去當導師，對不對？薪水就已經很微薄了，導師費一個月只有3,000塊，所以我希望你能夠有一個期程，明年是不可能增加的，是嗎？這樣還要等一年多！"],["朱次長俊彰：經費的部分會減少其實不是我們實質減少，而是因為財劃法的一些分配問題，一旦我們決定要能夠調高導師費跟鐘點費，我想教育部自己內部也會儘量移緩濟急。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，次長，你認為應不應該調高？"],["朱次長俊彰：如果以我個人來講，我身為三個小孩子的爸爸，導師這麼辛苦，我是希望能夠儘量幫他們爭取。"],["王委員鴻薇：對嘛！如果大家都覺得應該要調了，實在是時間那麼久，不調不合理的時候，我覺得應該做就要做，這個是我們該花的錢，好嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，我們會積極來爭取，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：好不好？我還是很希望即便明年預算沒有，但是我們想個什麼樣的方法讓這些第一線的導師能夠得到他們合理的酬勞，好不好？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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我還會幫你整理耶你8號發一個新聞稿 16號發一個LV"},{"start":247.23,"end":275.556,"text":"是我們夜上 是我們眼睛的夜上太重 看不到這也是我們看到這個戰事區我們當時宣導的是戰事區我們全部都清完了 這個照片在這裡啊所以我長的那個是什麼東西那個是 靈芯說是喔 跑出來的話我們要繼續去巡檢一大堆在那要靈芯喔 來 我再給你看不是只有那一大堆 來 市長你看 旁邊來旁邊 上一張"},{"start":277.505,"end":304.987,"text":"這個一樣是10月18號的新聞欸就剛剛那個一大坨的旁邊地面上是什麼左邊這一張破碎的光電板他的右上角這個是破碎的這個湖板下面還有金屬的這個擴建欸中間這張是什麼破碎的光電板很嚴重的現在環境部長在那連那個廢棄的電線都還在那裡右邊是什麼剛剛看那個亮亮的"},{"start":306.354,"end":324.101,"text":"破碎的光電板經濟部到底是怎樣是眼睛有業障一般人都看得到你們看不到還是你們變成一個造謠部並沒有沒有 為什麼我今天不是只有看得到全台灣民眾都看得到 怎麼看不到你們還要發個新聞稿說是民眾在造謠"},{"start":325.359,"end":353.761,"text":"並沒有這個事情第一個我們除了全部的這個戰事區這個部分我們在災後協調戰事區我們清完了之後我們還定期派人去比如說像這兩天我們還派了同仁然後去現場去看因為有一些的地方他可能被泥土所遮蓋的慢慢的有出來的那當然我們這個會要求他去處理不是你說的那個什麼被泥土掩蓋嘛對不對你說你們都還找人下去看那你們怎麼可以在8號跟16號"},{"start":355.407,"end":380.046,"text":"你們不只是說已經清完欸你們還說民眾不要再以而傳而欸你們是要反駁聯合報的報導反駁立法院的質詢欸你們這樣不是在自打嘴巴嗎不是 那張照片的出處我們會去了解一下那張照片的出處我們絕對會去了解來來 我再給你看剛講的是 戰事區對不對你說戰事區把制洪池都處理好了來 我給你看這是新聞的制洪池欸電話下一下 請請測測"},{"start":386.223,"end":398.079,"text":"那個是什麼 像小船是不是幾十艘的小船 現在在志鴻池的上面這是看 怎麼會看不 你還找人下去看"},{"start":399.162,"end":417.279,"text":"不過我們定期去巡檢確實是如此這個裡面的這個浮台據我的同仁去現場巡檢了解它大概有可能有兩種樣態一種樣態是它是定位點的這個浮台第二個部分是過去沉在這個水面裡面的話"},{"start":417.839,"end":445.088,"text":"那慢慢因為水波的這個衝擊或水滴的衝擊慢慢再浮出來了所以這也是為什麼我們今天還有再請人家去尋檢的關係我們不會說清完的時候完全置之不理清不乾淨結果你還敢發兩篇新聞稿還罵說大家以訛傳訛連我在立法院在質詢你們都可以講說都清完了就救資料我現在給你最新的資料那這樣不是變成兩個很嚴重問題嗎你清完這個東西你變成是一個錯誤的消息"},{"start":445.808,"end":466.584,"text":"第二個 你還幫別人造謠 變成自己在造謠啦而且這個啦 你看 次長你看十幾... 十...好像那個小船一樣 十幾艘以上在那個水面上你都... 你只要走過去 一般的民眾就看得到啦不要媒體去採訪 不要立法院去看一般民眾只要從這個新聞 這個大馬路過去就看到了捏阿甘 你在孫孫博 你不是故意在誤導嗎"},{"start":468.523,"end":496.034,"text":"我不要只有罵你啦我是說我現在是跟你講道理講得很清楚我給你看有圖有真相對不對啊這個是新聞的這個志鴻池你趕快找人去看好不好謝謝委員的資料給我們順便去尋查一下我會給你啊你也看一下來你看一下不是只有那個小船在左邊飄你看右邊來來OK我給你看一下右邊那個是什麼那是廢棄的光電板啊那麼清楚啊來再下一張我為他證實是昨天去的喔我特別拿了昨天的報紙給你喝飽"},{"start":497.694,"end":523.112,"text":"昨天鄭麗文 前天當選這個黨主席鄭麗文當選國民黨黨主席 對這是19號的報紙我昨天人就在這個地方那我看到就剛剛講 剛剛給大家看了18號跟19號裡面的戰事區沒有清完製縫池 該清的沒有清完你看 這個製縫池 你看旁邊這個是什麼這是個很完整的光電板 整個整個好好的 整座都在這裡好好的"},{"start":524.755,"end":533.038,"text":"你怎麼連這東西都沒清呢右邊是破碎的光電板你隨便一看就抓得到了這個我們去查明一下"},{"start":534.232,"end":559.462,"text":"那個市長你們當初當初沒有會漏洞這麼大沒看到是你們自己去看的還是環境部給你們的資料不是吧不是我們有自己我們在後有沒有最後因為時間有限來我我整理一下啦OK來下來下來我來我們最後時間有限我做一個第一個齁我鄭重的呼籲不是只有立法院在問政我很感動聯合報的記者一組人喔"},{"start":560.461,"end":580.109,"text":"一組人去做了90天對嘉義廢棄的光電板的追蹤他們說什麼 這是一個食言的教訓政策暴衝導致短短4年一個颱風來就翻車了而且要全民去買單到現在該清的還沒清完是不是污染了土地然後還要講說民眾在造謠這都嚴重的一個事情"},{"start":581.58,"end":608.263,"text":"我請那個部長跟次長回去看一看聯合報的那個追蹤報導90天的追蹤報導 好不好另外我做三個 簡單我做三個要求 來第一個 針對這一次為什麼出現剛剛我講的根本沒有清完 你竟然講說是清完了到底出了什麼問題 實地再去勘查 好不好然後盡快提出一個檢討沒有清完了 趕快清走 好不好這是第一個要求 第三個"},{"start":609.659,"end":638.521,"text":"一定要水面光電板的一個災害的應變計畫這個應該是環境部跟經濟部要趕快盡力出來 好不好要趕緊 第二個我們民眾黨已經針對水庫跟水面型上面要納這個環評請環境部跟行政院跟經濟部不是只有做評估啦趕快提出一個審議板來 好不好就提這三大要求好 一起努力 拜託一下大家只要到嘉義"},{"start":639.801,"end":646.656,"text":"新聞還有一些那個自封紙那個旁邊去看就會發現戰事區跟自封紙都是沒有清乾淨 乾淨要清乾淨好 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":870,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時43分）謝謝主席。請經濟部賴次長跟環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請賴次長、彭部長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，我看經濟部從8號發了新聞稿、16號又發了FB，你們都在強調嘉義廢棄的光電板已經完全清完了，不管是滯洪池還是暫置區，說不要再以訛傳訛，確定都清完了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：現在還有部分在合法的暫置區域裡面，其他的部分都在……"],["張委員啓楷：暫置區你不是說都清掉了？你看你自己的圖，暫置區10月11號以前不是全部都清完了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：那個是在……"],["張委員啓楷：這個是你自己打臉自己的新聞稿啊？"],["賴次長建信：那個是在4個場區當時災後緊急暫置的一個區域。"],["張委員啓楷：這個是16號剛剛發的，距離現在才5天。"],["賴次長建信：是啊！"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們先確認一下新塭、貴舍、荷苞嶼、新庄案場，滯洪池本身是7月24號就完成了，對不對？新庄是7月30號，這個沒錯，對不對？這沒錯嘛！暫置區照你的新聞稿跟你剛剛的FB，還叫民眾不要以訛傳訛，來看一下，所以新塭是10月11號以前清除，貴舍都是10月11號以前清完嘛，對不對？是不是照你的新聞稿？"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["張委員啓楷：是喔！我昨天特別下去看，這是嘉義新塭滯洪池的暫置區，你看帆布蓋起來，從外面都看得到裡面裝的是什麼？破碎的光電板跟絞碎的浮板。次長，你們為什麼那麼急著8號要發新聞稿、16號要發？這上面還一大堆，這還不是剛剛環境部在講零星的，那麼一大堆，次長。"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我再進一步給你看，這是旁邊暫置區，散落的……你看左邊的圖，中間那個是破碎的光電板，次長，你先看，怎麼說？"],["賴次長建信：第一個，我們剛剛說明丹娜絲的時候，我們有一個緊急的暫置區，包括水面的太陽能光電板，這個我們確實都已經有清完了。至於你剛剛的畫面，包括後面那一張畫面顯示的，應該是委員最近有去看的。"],["張委員啓楷：昨天去看的啊！"],["賴次長建信：對，這個部分我們還是會定期去看，若還有沒清理的話，會依照相關的規定來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：所以發新聞稿的時候，你全部都清完了啊？"],["賴次長建信：我們確實在工業區旁邊的暫置區，當時協調完的那個都清完了。"],["張委員啓楷：來！我剛剛還問你，回到新塭、貴舍，我還幫你整理，8號發一個新聞稿、16號發一個FB。"],["賴次長建信：是啊！"],["張委員啓楷：是我們眼睛的業障太重看不到，還是經濟部也變成造謠部啊？"],["賴次長建信：這也是我們看到這個暫置區，我們當時協調的這個暫置區全部都清完了，這個照片在這裡。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我昨天的照片，那是什麼東西？"],["賴次長建信：那個是零星跑出來的話，我們會繼續去巡檢。"],["張委員啓楷：那個一大堆在那裡叫零星喔！我再給你看，不是只有那一大堆，次長你看，這個一樣是10月18號新塭的，就剛剛那一大陀的旁邊，地面上是什麼？左邊這一張破碎的光電板、右上角是破碎的浮板、下面還有金屬扣件，這一張中間是破碎的光電板，很嚴重的，現在環境部長在這裡，連廢棄的電線都還在那裡，右邊是什麼？看那個亮亮的是破碎的光電板，經濟部到底是怎樣？是眼睛有業障，一般人都看得到，你們看不到，還是你們變成一個造謠部？"],["賴次長建信：並沒有，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，為什麼今天不是只有我看得到，全臺灣民眾都看得到，為什麼你看不到？"],["賴次長建信：我們針對於所清理大數的……"],["張委員啓楷：你們還要發新聞稿說是民眾在造謠啊！"],["賴次長建信：並沒有這個事情。第一個，我們除了全部的暫置區，這個部分我們在災後協調的暫置區把它清完了之後，我們還定期派人去，比如像這兩天我們還派了同仁到現場去看，因為有一些的地方可能被泥土所遮蓋的，慢慢地有出來的，當然我們會要求他去處理。"],["張委員啓楷：那一大堆不是你說的被泥土遮蓋嘛，對不對？第二個，你說你們都還要找人下去看，你們怎麼可以在8號跟16號不只說已經清完，你們還說民眾不要再以訛傳訛？你們是要反駁聯合報的報導、反駁立法院的質詢。"],["賴次長建信：那一張照片的出處，我們會去了解一下。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你們這樣不是自打嘴巴嗎？變成造謠部啊！"],["賴次長建信：不是，那一張照片的出處，我們絕對會去了解。"],["張委員啓楷：我再給你看，剛剛講的是暫置區，你說暫置區跟滯洪池都處理好了，我給你看，有沒有嚇一大跳？這是新塭的滯洪池，地點我寫得清清楚楚，那個是什麼？像小船是不是？幾十艘的小船，現在還在滯洪池上面！"],["賴次長建信：這個我讓……"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼會看不到？你又說你還找人下去看。"],["賴次長建信：不過我們定期去巡檢確實是如此，這裡面的浮臺據同仁去現場巡檢了解，大概可能有兩種樣態：一種樣態是，它是定位點的浮臺；第二個部分是過去沉在水裡面，因為水波的衝擊或水力的衝擊，慢慢再浮出來了，所以這也是為什麼我們今天還有再請人家去巡檢，我們不會清完的時候，完全置之不理……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你可能清不乾淨，結果還敢發兩篇新聞稿罵大家以訛傳訛，連我在立法院質詢，你們都可以說都清完了，那個是舊資料。我現在給你最新的資料，這樣不就變成兩個很嚴重的問題嗎？你清完這個東西，變成是一個錯誤的消息；第二個你還罵別人造謠，變成自己在造謠啦！"],["賴次長建信：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：而且這個，次長，你看！好像小船一樣，十幾艘以上在水面上，只要走過去，一般的民眾就看得到了，不要媒體去採訪、不要立法委員去看，一般民眾只要從新塭這個大馬路走過去就看到了啊！就只有你們在巡卻巡不到，你們是故意在誤導嗎？我不要只有罵你啦！我現在是跟你講道理，講得很清楚，我給你看，有圖有真相，對不對？這個是新塭的滯洪池，你趕快找人去看，好不好？我再給你看……"],["賴次長建信：謝謝，委員的資料也給我們，我們順便去巡查一下。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我會給你。你也看一下，不是只有小船在左邊漂，你看右邊，我給你看一下右邊是什麼？那是廢棄的光電板，那麼清楚啊！再下一張，我為了證實是昨天去的，特別拿了昨天的報紙聯合報，前天鄭麗文當選國民黨黨主席，這是19號的報紙，我昨天人就在這個地方，看到的就是剛剛給大家看的18號跟19號裡面的暫置區沒有清完，滯洪池該清的也沒有清完。你看滯洪池旁邊這個是什麼？這是很完整的光電板，整組完完整整的在這裡，怎麼連東西都沒清呢？右邊是破碎的光電板，隨便一看就抓得到了。"],["賴次長建信：這個我們去查明。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，當初漏洞這麼大卻沒看到，是你們自己去看的，還是環境部給的資料？不是吧？"],["賴次長建信：不是，我們災後有去巡查。"],["張委員啓楷：最後因為時間有限，第一個，我鄭重地呼籲，不是只有立法委員在問政，我很感動，聯合報的記者一組人做了90天對嘉義廢棄光電板的追蹤，他們說這是一個10億元的教訓，政策暴衝導致短短四年，一個颱風來就翻車了，而且要全民去買單。到現在該清的還沒清完，是不是污染了土地？然後還要說是民眾在造謠，這是多麼嚴重的事情。我請部長跟次長回去好好看一看聯合報的那個追蹤報導，90天的追蹤報導，好不好？","另外我簡單做三個要求：第一個，針對這一次為什麼會出現剛剛我講的根本就沒有清完，你竟然說清完了！到底出了什麼問題，實地再去勘查好不好？然後儘快提出檢討，沒有清完的就趕快清走，好不好？這是第一個要求；第二個，我們民眾黨已經針對水庫跟水面型要納入環評，請環境部跟行政院、經濟部，不是只有做評估啦！趕快提出一個政院版來，好不好？第三個，一定要有水面型光電板的災害應變計畫，這個應該是環境部跟經濟部要趕快擬出來，好不好？就提這三大要求，一起努力，拜託一下，大家只要到嘉義新塭那些滯洪池旁邊去看，就會發現暫置區跟滯洪池都沒有清乾淨，趕快去把它清乾淨，謝謝。"],["主席（廖委員偉翔）：謝謝張啓楷委員發言。","請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164424","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164424","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b4e84f15167b264ae6d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d23fcf17fe098d76155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:41:35 - 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但是現在我們看到有多位的這個在野黨的委員他們也提案要來做修正那雖然是打著說因應這個物價的上漲然後要照顧所謂的這個高齡退休的人員的一個旗號但是實質上的一個內容我們看到的卻是逗退路啦"},{"start":90.822,"end":108.182,"text":"真的是改革倒退而且是破壞了制度的平衡的一個風險這是我們必須要考量進去的那我想一直以來我剛剛提到在教育文化委員會當中我們其實不管是在第一線的老師的關心或者是現在大家關注聚焦在所謂的消失會議對老師的衝擊"},{"start":109.924,"end":133.963,"text":"甚至在許多的資源充足的六都當中我們老師是招不滿的一招再招甚至帶領教師的部分這都是一個非常重要的警訊我想連現職就像剛剛吳志耀委員提到的連現職的教師我們的權益都沒有辦法給予他們充分不管是精神上的保障或者實質上的保障我們現在要來"},{"start":136.403,"end":153.599,"text":"照顧所謂的高齡退休人員那當然我們必須說我們當然願意提供這樣子的一個照顧但是我們也要審核我們自己本身的財政的一個負擔是不是也會引起其他族群的不滿這個其實是我們要去傾聽更多的一個民意啦"},{"start":154.079,"end":171.873,"text":"那我想如果在整個所有的財政的壓力跟勞工的對比之下甚至還有其他的一些族群會引發所謂的勞工看不下去我們的財政也吃不消這種兩種雙重的一個窘境雙重的一個問題我想呢"},{"start":172.313,"end":185.186,"text":"就算所謂的這個教職人員他是屬於軍公教的一個體系那相對來講他的福利他的穩定或者他完善的一個退休機制其實也是比較其他的族群要來得更加的優渥"},{"start":186.348,"end":208.056,"text":"但是這在社會的觀感上面我們不忍不防也會擔心到所謂的人家會質疑這越照顧越不平衡會有這樣子的問題產生所以其實如果要把教育體系單獨拿來修法那會不會引起因為過去我們知道軍公教其實是一體的喔"},{"start":209.036,"end":233.885,"text":"那其他的如果軍工是不是也要同步的調整但是如果軍工也同步的調整這整個所有的制度的公平性會不會遭到質疑那在這裡我想請教一下我們的這個懷刺的部分喔那我想呢這一次我們看到他們修法的內容是要排除113年後逐年下降的所得替代率的一個規定"},{"start":235.649,"end":251.331,"text":"但這個有沒有可能會讓我們的退福基金財務壓力瞬間變大那我們的退福基金會不會入不敷出這個部分有沒有評估過請教一下 白癡如果照目前這樣的提案修法的話"},{"start":252.272,"end":279.017,"text":"會讓原來像教育人員部分他會提前到129年就會那個基金就會用慶接下來就是說因為我們停止調降那停止調降因為這次還包括公務人員部分那每一年可以節省下來的退伍就回憶到我們退伍基金的經費如果到118年那我們大概會減少大概2700多億的部分進入到我們的基金大概會有這樣的一個情形"},{"start":279.437,"end":299.287,"text":"好那另外呢就是也有委員提案說這個退休金啊要隨在職人員的本薪調整來重新計算那我想這個制度會不會也導致照這樣子的版本來講如果這樣子的一個制度真的先行下去的話我們的年輕負擔會不會快速的惡化"},{"start":300.612,"end":323.183,"text":"因為我們限職人員他是在工作所以他調薪的思考的因子是跟退休的部分是不一樣所以我們在現在的設計上面是CPI上下5%就進行調整或者就算沒有這樣的部分的話大概每四年也要進行一次的檢討調整過去我們大概已經有調整過兩次分別是2%跟4%加起來是6%"},{"start":325.034,"end":352.671,"text":"但現在他們提案要調降喔調降到3%上下3%甚至到2%他們就要來調整這個會不會讓我們的這個基金的財務不確定性更增加這個會那我也跟委員報告一下因為我們這個不管是目前我們現狀第一層年金跟第二層年金包括我們國民年金啊那個勞保等等都是用正負5%來做調整那如果說我們單獨的公教部分"},{"start":353.211,"end":381.133,"text":"把它減少的話 恐怕這個要省省來思考好 第四點我要質疑 我要請教一下這個諸次囉有委員甚至提案說要刪除直接刪除六十七條直接刪除六十七條或者是取消超過百分之五必須經過立法院同意的這樣子的一個程序實質上讓行政部門單方面來決定這個支出的增加這會不會削弱我們國會監督的一個權限我想請教一下我們諸次你怎麼看 你贊成嗎"},{"start":383.364,"end":398.886,"text":"我想因為陳土剛剛委員提到的有關於整個退府的一個調整他事實上可能還有涉及到其他不同職類的人員所以如果有國會適當的監督我想這是也是應該是必要的"},{"start":399.306,"end":414.956,"text":"好我們再次強調我們樂於這個討論如何讓退休的教職員在物價上漲的一個壓力之下獲得合理的一個保障這我們樂見看見但是要維持制度的一個穩定跟基金的永續這才是我們的社會共識啦"},{"start":415.336,"end":434.67,"text":"那另外呢其實我可以建議就是我們行政院跟全序部是不是整個可以盤點整個軍公教的這個退輔機制讓所有的有系統的一個調整而不是個別來做修補會搗亂我們的整個財政永續的這樣子的一個障礙跟困難好以上謝謝兩位好謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝郭委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":700,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時41分）謝謝主席，有請懷次、朱次。"],["主席：有請兩位次長。"],["郭委員昱晴：兩位次長早安。今天我們要探討的這個議題，因為在教育文化委員會當中，其實我們一直不斷的在關心教師一些權益的問題。這次我們看到退撫條例修正的版本，尤其是當中的第三十七條、第三十八條還有第六十七條，我想這是要維繫整個教職人員退休制度當中的公平性，同時還有基金永續性的核心條款。但是我們看到的這一套設計，其實也是經過我們所有年金改革審慎評估的結果，這是兼顧了退休教職員生活的保障，跟退撫基金的長期穩健，對吧？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。現在我們看到有多位在野黨的委員們提案要來修正，雖然是打著因應物價的上漲，要照顧高齡退休人員的一個旗號，我們看到的實質上的內容卻是「倒退嚕」，真的是改革倒退，而且是破壞了制度的平衡，產生風險，這是我們必須要考量進去的。我想一直以來，我剛剛提到在教育文化委員會當中，其實不管是對第一線老師的關心，或者是大家現在關注聚焦在「校事會議」對老師的衝擊，甚至在許多資源充足的六都當中，老師是招不滿的，一招再招，甚至缺代理教師，這都是非常重要的警訊。我想就像剛剛吳思瑤委員提到的，連現職教師的權益都沒有辦法充分給予他們，不管是精神上的保障或者實質上的保障，但是我們現在要來照顧高齡退休人員，當然，我們必須說我們願意提供這樣子的照顧，但是我們也要審核本身財政的負擔是不是也會引起其他族群的不滿？其實我們要去傾聽更多的民意。如果在財政的壓力，跟勞工甚至還有其他的族群對比之下，會引發所謂的勞工看不下去，而我們的財政也吃不消，有雙重的窘境、雙重的問題。教職人員是屬於軍公教的體系，相對來講，他的福利、他的穩定，或者他完善的退休機制，跟其他的族群比較也是來得更加優渥。但是在社會的觀感上面，我們免不了也會擔心被質疑越照顧越不平衡，會有這樣子的問題產生。如果要把教育體系單獨拿來修法，那會不會引起……因為過去我們知道軍公教其實是一體的，那其他的軍、公是不是也要同步調整？如果軍、公也同步調整，整個制度的公平性會不會遭到質疑？","在這裡我想請教一下我們的懷次，這一次我們看到他們修法的內容是要排除113年後逐年下降所得替代率的規定，但這有沒有可能會讓退撫基金財務壓力瞬間變大？退撫基金會不會入不敷出，這個部分有沒有評估過？請教一下懷次。"],["懷次長敍：如果照目前這樣的提案修法，會讓原來像教育人員的部分提前到129年基金就會用罄。接下來因為這次停止調降，還包括公務人員的部分，每一年就可以回溢為退撫基金的經費，如果到118年大概會減少兩千七百多億進入到基金，有這樣的情形。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。另外也有委員提案退休金要隨在職人員的本薪調整來重新計算，我想這個制度會不會也導致……照這樣的版本來講，如果這樣的制度真的先行下去的話，年金負擔會不會快速惡化？"],["懷次長敍：因為現職人員是在工作，所以調薪的思考因子跟退休的部分是不一樣的，所以我們在現在的設計上面是CPI上下百分之五就進行調整，或者就算沒有這樣，大概每四年也要進行一次檢討調整，過去我們已經有調整過兩次，分別是2%跟4%，加起來是6%。"],["郭委員昱晴：但現在他們提案要調降，調降到3%上下，甚至到2%就要來調整，這會不會讓基金的財務不確定性更增加？"],["懷次長敍：這個會。我也跟委員報告一下，因為目前的現狀，不管是第一層年金跟第二層年金，包括國民年金、勞保等等，都是用正負百分之五來調整，如果單獨把公教的部分減少的話，恐怕要審慎來思考。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。第四點我要質疑的是，請教一下朱次，有委員甚至提案要直接刪除第六十七條，或者是取消超過百分之五必須經過立法院同意這樣的程序，實質上讓行政部門單方面來決定這個支出的增加，這會不會削弱國會監督的權限？我想請教一下朱次怎麼看，你贊成嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：誠如剛剛委員提到的，有關整個退撫的調整，事實上可能還有涉及到其他不同職類的人員，我想國會適當的監督應該是必要的。"],["郭委員昱晴：我再次強調，我們樂於討論如何讓退休教職員在物價上漲壓力之下獲得合理的保障，這是我們樂於看見的，但是要維持制度的穩定跟基金的永續，這才是社會共識。另外，我建議行政院跟銓敘部，是不是可以盤點整個軍公教的退撫機制？讓所有的都有系統的調整，而不是個別來修補，否則會搗亂整個財政永續，會有這樣的障礙跟困難。以上，謝謝兩位。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員。","接下來請王鴻薇委員發言。","我們先處理會議時間：上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。好，請開始。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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請葉主委我們再請葉主委委員長主委"},{"start":20.632,"end":43.707,"text":"日本是我們台灣的第三大的貿易夥伴在這個月初的時候台北市的日本商會他發布了2025年對台灣政府政策的建言的白皮書你有沒有看過有當然有看過那本席也針對這個白皮書特別去翻閱了我們也發現他特別有提到就像我們台灣在積極推動這個AI產業跟半導體產業"},{"start":49.143,"end":65.533,"text":"這兩樣產業這兩樣產業是非常耗電高耗電的那要穩定供電那目前我們的核電廠全部就已經停止運轉了當然我們台灣還是有做一些再生能源的建置但是穩定供電是非常的重要"},{"start":65.913,"end":84.903,"text":"那日本商會這邊特別就有提到所以我們可以看得出日本商會他是非常擔心我們沒有核能作為基載能源未來是否能夠讓他們能夠在這個合作上面會發生有任何的變化所以在能源方面"},{"start":86.363,"end":103.693,"text":"我們國發會也是可以是主導這個橫向各部會協調能源政策跟相關計畫的一個主則單位你對這方面對於新的能源政策你們有沒有能源的技術方面你們有沒有展開了這個研究這個研究我們會持續關注但這個核能的關注有沒有展開研究目前我們還沒有為什麼沒有"},{"start":114.059,"end":124.907,"text":"因為第一個就是說我們國內的那個核能的政策的話可能還是要有幾個步驟第一個就是說要有兩個程序我知道總統在我們核能這個公投之後的話總統有說過三樣這個原則下"},{"start":131.172,"end":147.217,"text":"沒有錯在三樣原則下你還是要做一些未以籌謀穩定供電在我們再生能源不夠穩定的當下你為什麼沒有說先來做一些準備呢會 會就謝謝委員的所以你要不要去研究會 謝謝委員新的能源技術要去研究嘛好"},{"start":148.217,"end":164.683,"text":"那現在再來要跟你提到的就是我們一些人口老化高齡化少子化的情形那在整個勞動力的市場上來講的話我們是對缺工是非常的嚴重在這白皮書裡面也有提到這缺工的問題"},{"start":165.843,"end":184.441,"text":"缺工的产业包括就是服务业跟制造业这两方面那我们看到我们政府对于这个自动化的提升这个部分的话只有协助到这个低碳转型跟数位的转型那请问一下未来对这两个产业的话我们能不能也来做自动化的相关的补助"},{"start":185.527,"end":197.681,"text":"會會會因為就好像我剛剛跟大家分享就是說經濟部的那個所以你會協調經濟部對這兩個產業進行自動化提升的而且已經工作效率的補助有這個預算"},{"start":201.165,"end":227.927,"text":"這樣子的話才能讓我們缺工的問題能夠獲得解決那再來要跟你提到就是日本也是我們半導體產業設備重要的供應國家那我們看到這個在日本企業的東京威力科創他們的員工跟我們台積電的員工合作偷取竊取了2奈米的先進製程這件事情諸位也是知道嘛"},{"start":229.528,"end":245.976,"text":"在這種事情發生的時候主委對半導體先進製程這個核心的技術我們要保障這個國際的競爭力那這個技術是很重要的要好好去保護它的所以在這方面的話我們國家有國安法還有這個產業的"},{"start":248.177,"end":267.538,"text":"這個營業的這個秘密法對事後會有一個處分但是我們有未來可以怎麼去對於未來如果去防範對於這個半導體這個產業他們的如果在內部的管理上人員管理上或者治安的防護機制上你們也能夠做哪些的防護跟保護管理"},{"start":269.363,"end":297.008,"text":"因為這個部分來講我們有一支計畫有次在跟那個疏防部在做合作那會就整個那個治安的疏防部要怎麼做他們溝通他做什麼防護他有在持續的研究就是說在那個是不是有一些APP啊或者是我們希望有事前的防護比事後的處分來的重要而且高科技了所以這方面的話主委你能提到具體的"},{"start":298.547,"end":310.891,"text":"你應該很了解 具體的如何去防護呢第一個當然就台積電這個半導體這件事情的話它會裡面 對 它可能你看過白皮書了 白皮書有提到對"},{"start":314.884,"end":344.096,"text":"所以诸位他们要求的就是我们对于业者在内部资讯的安全管理跟机密的分级授权跟人员的审查一定要深化国际的合作的同时也能够守护到产业的竞争力这就是你当前要注意要去做的所以不要丢给速发部我对速发部也没有信心我不晓得他在做什么连一个诈骗他都没办法处理了"},{"start":345.056,"end":371.55,"text":"所以主委您是橫跨各部會的協調溝通相關產業你要積極的努力朝這方面來做好不好謝謝委員那接下來想請問主委的就是說我們國發基金啊對於投資方面的話我們有外部的審查委員制的方式嗎對不對有沒有有那為什麼像這個爐心公司啊他這個指標"},{"start":375.987,"end":404.119,"text":"我們外部審查的時候有提醒你他會虧損但是你們還堅持要投資是什麼原因跟委員報告就是說我們的審查的機制會送外省然後外省的意見回來之後的話我們會中整之後給那一個所以你中整了還是要投資因為我們不會只給一個委員看通常會有三個委員所以就好像你拿到"},{"start":405.74,"end":418.647,"text":"審查報告的時候 有一個會很好可能啦 另外一個會很差他提醒你的是什麼 毛利率過低而且整體的規劃設計技術各方面他沒有做出一個策略的規劃性這個一點這麼多 你們內部"},{"start":421.989,"end":438.551,"text":"你們內部可以棄盤點的話你就不用請外部 那外部給你建議你又不用那這樣子的話你這個沒有做一個具體的棄盤整的話那整個是虛有其表而且對整個基金的投資還執意的造成了一個損失 你們"},{"start":440.069,"end":453.559,"text":"國發會要不要負起責任跟委員報告就是說我們內部的委員不去做外部的審查所以你把他推給委員嗎那些委員是誰聘的不夠專業嗎我們有一個那個委員的那一個治療庫"},{"start":455.56,"end":475.994,"text":"所以你們委員不夠專業也請外面的省和投省單位來做一個評估評估告訴你就是毛利率很低他們沒有前瞻性未來性的一些戰略策略在裡面你們還要投資那表示你們整體作業投資把人民的納稅錢就當一回事了嗎"},{"start":476.614,"end":488.923,"text":"跟委員報告就是說裡面會有一個報告是不好的但其他的可能是很好的話就需要那個管理委員事實已經呈現他就是失敗的好我再提一個聯合再生的公司的投資案"},{"start":491.377,"end":518.569,"text":"他們有17位委員你說推給委員我就告訴你這個聯合再生公司你就是17位委員要來進行投票但是有6位委員請假一位用代理的可以用代理來投票嗎這不是要專業嗎他是代理的話他整個了解整個事業體嗎所以他投出來的票8票同意那是不是不同意的人就要請假不要來"},{"start":519.834,"end":544.286,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告就是說我們已經就這個部分就是說代理的問題的話我們有提出一系列的改進方案所以我本身在這邊建議以後不要用代理的而且你17位就要17位通通來投票請假你可以調整一下時間你六位不來那六位是不同意你就要不要來啊我可以合理懷疑嗎因為基本上我們管理委員會的委員很多都是部長"},{"start":545.202,"end":566.102,"text":"那有的時候就是說他們時間上面來講的話沒有辦法配合部長要更關心這件事情那你說部長不關心那你就不要把投資人的錢亂丟我們在新的版本裡面我們會對這個一定要嚴格好不好會有比較嚴格的一個要求在這個投審的地方國發基金要審慎投資好 謝謝好 謝謝韋"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時39分）謝謝主席，請葉主委。"],["主席：我們再請葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，日本是臺灣的第三大貿易夥伴，在這個月初，臺北市日本商會發布2025年對臺灣政府政策的建言白皮書，你有沒有看過？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有，當然看過。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席也特別去翻閱白皮書，發現它特別提到……像臺灣積極推動AI產業跟半導體兩樣產業，但這兩樣產業非常耗電，屬於高耗電產業，所以就要穩定供電。目前我們的核電廠已經全部停止運轉，雖然臺灣還是有做再生能源的建置，但穩定供電仍非常重要。日本商會特別提到這點，這也讓我們看出日本商會非常擔心我們在沒有核能作為基載能源的情況下，未來是否會在合作上發生變化？以能源來說，國發會可以說是主導並橫向協調各部會能源政策跟相關計畫的主責單位，對於這方面，對於新的能源政策，譬如能源的技術方面，你們有沒有展開研究？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個研究我們會持續關注，但核能……"],["呂委員玉玲：只關注？有沒有展開研究？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：目前我們還沒有。"],["呂委員玉玲：為什麼沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：第一個，國內的核能政策可能還是要有幾個步驟，即兩個程序、三個原則……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道。總統在核能公投之後有說過三個原則，沒有錯，但即使在三個原則下還是要未雨綢繆，以穩定供電。尤其在再生能源供應不夠穩定的當下，為什麼不先做準備呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要不要去研究？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，謝謝委員提醒。"],["呂委員玉玲：新的能源技術要去研究。再來要提到的就是人口老化、高齡化、少子化的情形，就整個勞動力市場來講，缺工狀況非常嚴重，白皮書裡也有提到缺工問題。目前缺工的產業包括服務業跟製造業，但政府對於自動化的提升只協助低碳轉型跟數位轉型，請問未來對這兩個產業能不能給予自動化的相關補助？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，如同我剛剛跟大家分享的，經濟部特別……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你會協調經濟部對這兩個產業進行自動化提升及工作效率的補助……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：而且已經編列460億的預算。"],["呂委員玉玲：有這項預算？好。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有、有。"],["呂委員玉玲：有？好，這樣才能讓我們缺工的問題能夠獲得解決。再來，日本也是我們半導體產業設備重要的供應國家，但我們看到日本企業東京威力科創員工跟台積電員工合作，竊取2奈米先進製程，這件事情主委應該知道。由於發生這種事情，所以對於半導體先進製程的核心技術我們要保障國際競爭力，這個技術是很重要的，要好好去保護。在這方面，我們有國安法，還有跟產業相關的營業秘密法可以做事後的處分。但未來我們對如何防範半導體產業，如何對其內部管理、人員管理或在資安防護機制上做到哪些防護、保護跟管理？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就這部分來講，我們跟數發部有合作計畫，會就整個資安的防護……"],["呂委員玉玲：怎麼跟數發部合作？做什麼防護？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們有計畫在持續研究，做app或是……"],["呂委員玉玲：事前的防護比事後處分來得重要，畢竟這是屬於高科技的。我想這方面主委應該很瞭解，所以到底該如何具體防護？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就台積電半導體來說，他可能……"],["呂委員玉玲：你說你看過白皮書，其實白皮書中有提到。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，他們要求我們對於業者的內部資訊安全管理，跟機密的分級、授權與人員審查，一定要深化國際合作，同時也能守護產業競爭力，這就是你當前要注意、要去做的。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以不要丟給數發部。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：我對數發部也沒有信心，根本不曉得在做什麼，連詐騙都沒辦法處理了！所以主委，您要橫跨各部會去做協調溝通，對於相關產業要積極努力，朝這方面來做，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來想請問主委，國發基金對於投資有外部的審查，採委員制方式，對不對？有沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有。"],["呂委員玉玲：像如興公司這個指標，在外部審查時有提醒會虧損，但你們還是堅持要投資，到底是什麼原因？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，我們的審查機制會送外審，外審意見回來之後我們會綜整，之後給那個……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以在綜整之後還是要投資？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們不會只給一個委員看，通常會有三個委員。這就好像拿到審查報告後，有一個覺得很好，另外一個覺得很差……"],["呂委員玉玲：他提醒你什麼？毛利率過低，而且整體的規劃、設計、技術各方面沒有做策略規劃，疑點這麼多，你們內部……如果你們內部有盤點的話，就不用送外部審查；而外部審查給你們建議了，你們又不用？你們沒有做具體盤整，讓審查虛有其表，執意投資，造成基金的損失，請問國發會要不要負起責任？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，我們內部委員不做外部審查……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你推給委員啊！這些委員是誰聘的？不夠專業嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們有委員資料庫，我們是隨機……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們委員不夠專業，只好請外面的投審單位做評估，而評估結果告訴你毛利率很低，沒有前瞻性、未來性的戰略與策略，這樣你們還要投資？表示你們的整體投資作業並不把人民的納稅錢當一回事！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，如果裡面有一個報告是不好的，但其他的報告卻很好的話，需要管理委員會……"],["呂委員玉玲：事實已經呈現，它就是失敗的！好，我再提聯合再生公司的投資案為例，有17位委員……你推給委員，我就告訴你，這家聯合再生公司由17位委員進行投票。其中有6位委員請假，1位用代理的，但可以用代理來投票嗎？這不是需要專業？代理的了解整個事業體嗎？所以投出來的票有8票同意，是不是不同意的人就要他請假不要來？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這部分跟委員報告，我們已經就代理的問題提出一系列的改進方案……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我本席建議，以後不要用代理！既然是17位，那麼這17位就要通通來投票；至於要請假的，就調整一下時間。如果有6位不來，難道是因為這6位不同意，所以就不要來？我可以合理懷疑嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：基本上我們管理委員會的委員很多都是部長，有的時候部長在時間上沒有辦法配合……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長就更該關心這件事情！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會、會。"],["呂委員玉玲：如果部長不關心，那就不要把投資人的錢亂丟！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們在新的版本裡會對這點……"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要嚴格，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會有比較嚴格的要求。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，這是投審的地方，所以國發基金要審慎投資，謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請張嘉郡委員詢答。我們今天中午不休息，延長開會時間到議程處理完畢。謝謝，請發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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他自己的解釋啊他說的確能夠放置相關廢棄物但是因為這個大平頂地區它是個保護區喔"},{"start":93.493,"end":121.28,"text":"但是他說可以放可是沒有申請那主管機關無法監督指導清運跟站制的手續這個在程序上是違法的事實那高雄市府自己也有開罰那這樣算不算是亂到報告委員他其實因為這個是屬於地方的事務啦那他是允許他這個這家公司來執行這個地方政府的一個公共工程所以他特別允許他有一個站制的地方沒有但是他沒有申請"},{"start":122.18,"end":150.322,"text":"他是說他的地方法規他說他合法這個地方在法規上有去做這件事有這個可以去申請的這個狀況可是他沒有申請那請問就像剛剛倒垃圾的概念一樣他有這個法規但是他沒有申請這樣算不算是這樣算是合法理論上是不可以的但是這個應該是他跟水利因為他是水利局的工程然後他是接受水利局的委託處理這個事情所以我相信他們可能有一些契約在做這個事"},{"start":150.762,"end":174.844,"text":"你相信他們可是你並不曉得我不知道因為這地方的事好所以我想要問一下因為在保護區到廢棄廢栗清沒有違法只是沒有申請這是他們的說法那所以我也去查了一下他高雄市政府這個水利局所說的高雄市府認定用途的符合他說這個都市計劃法高雄市的施行細則附表中有廢污水處理設施但是這個細則的附表中"},{"start":175.584,"end":203.804,"text":"是說保護區之土地及建築物以供國土保安水土保持維護天然資源與環境保護的生態功能為主除了幼立的規定之外不得為其他使用而此列又是這個所謂的公用事業設施而不是公用事業設施所產出的垃圾所以我在想它是不是在這個法規上是解釋是有問題不符合程序的那這個部分因為它有可能是會變成一個通案"},{"start":204.685,"end":233.369,"text":"那這個部分我想要請問一下部長你的態度是什麼你們有什麼事情可以去協助的報告委員這個是屬於都計法啦這是市政府他們自己訂的都計法並不是我們環境部主管的法規啦那這個當然是如果從常理來看的話保護區的土地的確是不適宜去倒這樣的一個廢棄物啦對所以部長的態度就是保護區的土地不適合去倒這樣的廢棄物嘛而且他沒有合法的申請所以他也不能夠叫做暫置嘛等於是違法亂倒嘛"},{"start":234.694,"end":251.577,"text":"所以這個部分我想要請教這個是一個事件可是這事件的背後跟我們今天很多委員討論到的在處理整個不管是建築廢棄物或是各種廢棄物的流程上面我看這樣環境部好像會很難管理部長你有沒有什麼可以協助的地方"},{"start":252.017,"end":280.666,"text":"報告委員因為有些是其實這個事情是地方自治啦那我們也必須尊重地方單位那尤其這個的施工是當地的水利局那那個土地也是主管機關也是水利局的所以我相信他們可能在某方面可能是簡化了一些形式啦那我們會去了解這個到底怎麼走但是基本上如果是一個部長你可不可以去了解這個事件因為它不見得只是一個地方自治的問題因為它有關到整個廢棄屋清運這跟你的主要的業務有關係喔"},{"start":281.786,"end":309.611,"text":"而且他們如果說這樣子比如說美濃大峽谷啊挖一挖然後他最後可以放置的這些利益牽扯到的可能都是幾十億啊部長這個是會有問題而且對環境生態有很大的破壞這等一下跟這個光電板也有關係喔所以部長這部分你你可以做什麼調查或者是去了解他的委員這個我們再詳細的去了解啦因為這個畢竟是地方政府的工作但是我們會去了解說他到底在這個流程上面有什麼樣的一個問題"},{"start":310.211,"end":325.472,"text":"那部長您可以給本席什麼時候可以給一個了解後的報告嗎就是說他們這個到底發生什麼事而且他們還有沒有其他類似的地方是沒有申請然後亂佔志的那你未來要怎麼精進因為不見得只有高雄市政府啊各個地方南部現在很多地方可能都發生這種事情"},{"start":326.001,"end":351.124,"text":"好我們一個月的時間好不好好那拜託部長一個月的時間喔謝謝好那再來我想要再進一步去問喔就是剛剛其實有幾個委員包含剛剛陳金輝委員有提到有關於嘉義這次的瘋呆剛剛所謂的光電板序號的問題那部長你當時其實有承諾他九月中給但是到現在沒辦法給那剛剛經濟部能源署也有說這個量體很大很複雜啦"},{"start":352.265,"end":373.426,"text":"所以本席就想要追問其實我覺得這是一個很大的問題而且應該要精進的問題這是不是在流程上面會有問題因為這就跟當初在討論花蓮的災後的這個重建或者是災後的廢棄物清理清運或者是回收這是行這個流程上面是不是有疏失你們要怎麼精進因為當已經發生的時候"},{"start":375.908,"end":400.454,"text":"然後你沒有辦法馬上的去核對或者是他在清運的時候你有沒有要求業者怎麼樣給這些序號然後你的資料庫跟他報回來序號這不是現在的電腦或系統輸入進去他就可以去說有哪一些遺失有哪一些沒有偵測到這照理說應該是很快的事情那你們在流程上面有沒有去設計這個是部分如果部長不能回答你可以請經濟部的代表"},{"start":401.842,"end":423.503,"text":"報告委員 因為這個其實我們那個序號訂的目的是當時是為了淘汰這個廚藝的這個光電板所以有做一個序號因為這個有錢的對價關係那這次呢為什麼比較慢因為它是大量的因為被風災損毀所以它等於是要把它去化掉所以這個的數字上我的確也在追這個數字但是其實這個十幾萬片有一點困難"},{"start":424.384,"end":431.085,"text":"部長所以我這是要講的好你也先回答因為我一直在強調我覺得這是一個工作流程上的問題"},{"start":433.156,"end":454.221,"text":"因為就剛才講十幾萬片因為我們有業者他每一片的帳單但是業者他現在要去清點毀損的有12萬片左右但是他總共的可能超過幾十萬片有一部分毀損所以他要去核對就是說到底是少了哪幾片所以這個數量非常大"},{"start":455.041,"end":471.242,"text":"那我们有叫他清点出来因为未来他要做如果他要复原的话我们要清楚知道他是哪几片在做复原所以我认为你们这个要求和行政程序上面是不是有精进的地方你们要求说他现在去挖"},{"start":472.003,"end":485.086,"text":"挖的時候報回來的每一片都有序號他都要登記起來然後每一段時間他就是必須回報到你這裡來那你們要求的時間序有沒有問題因為這也會牽扯到剛有也有委員有給照片圖片說你們說清理完99%那現在有12萬多在暫置"},{"start":492.128,"end":506.383,"text":"然後但是他們後來又有記者去報再去挖土地之後發現還有破損的在土地裡面所以這又在追究一件事喔你放了太久到底是誰去把它挖然後再把它埋進去的這就是現在造成的問題嘛是不是"},{"start":507.068,"end":534.851,"text":"是 但現在陸續有一些零星的可能是當時被這個泥土掩埋那下雨之後沖刷又出來或是有一些他可能當時壓在下面那現在脫離飄出來就零星的是有啦那業者我們也去在這兩天我們也再去看業者這個好幾百卡車都送出去他不會剩下一兩個可能他做的沒有落實那這一方面環境部有去開罰那我們也會叫業者再來做盤點"},{"start":535.672,"end":562.34,"text":"我建議你們應該要一起限制一個這樣子的平台這個包含到兩個很重要的因素就是所謂公開透明網路上譬如說你有這些序號在這裡這些序號它現在怎麼跑它現在跑去哪裡了被處理的怎麼樣是還在發電中還是什麼的好那這個應該要公開透明的去展現出來之外因為它有兩個用處第一個用處等一下也會討論到但是我們先針對這件事情就是發生了災後的時候的廢棄物清理的狀況"},{"start":563.2,"end":589.115,"text":"因為這個你後續要再來追我跟你講你一定很難追你一定追不到所以這代表現在這個流程沒有及時公開透明譬如說業者一回報你是不是就應該要有一個這個資料庫就知道說現在回報的狀況是不是這樣子好然後包含他案場整個破壞這個案場到底是幾號到幾號的序號你這樣子才有辦法管理嘛現在看起來這個部分是沒有辦法是不是可以請部長和次長回去有一個精進作為的報告也是一樣一個月好不好"},{"start":589.875,"end":607.887,"text":"我覺得這個廢棄物的部分也是一個後續的問題可以嗎可以然後再接下來進一步一個月兩個這個部會跨部會去協調那再來就是下一個問題最後一個問題我會盡速就是剛剛有討論到這個現在光電板有這個所謂的回收基金對不對"},{"start":609.059,"end":626.53,"text":"那現在的說預計2045年可以收到173億看似是一大筆數一大筆錢啊好可是遠遠不足說腰之硬的預估的成本是397億喔對不對現在等於是還差了這麼還差那個簡報"},{"start":629.321,"end":652.368,"text":"還差了很多就是現在說預估可以收到173億然後但是不足以支應的成本是397億所以中間換句話說差了220幾億啊那我就想本身就想問這個部分怎麼辦因為他的確當然現在還沒有到要大量除役的時候可是其實也快了啊我們都已經看到這些問題跟剛剛所謂的後續的怎麼處置那這個價這個錢怎麼怎麼處理"},{"start":655.166,"end":674.211,"text":"這個報告因為他當時我們是每k瓦收1000元是依照當時的價格去計算所以現在就是等於是擺明的收不夠嘛然後還有包含2021年到2023年的回收清除處理費有四成沒有繳納我就想問說那到時候真的碰到大量廚藝的時候我們的這些錢或是不夠用的那怎麼處理會不會變成是我們要另外拿納稅人的錢來做這個回收"},{"start":678.951,"end":704.78,"text":"不會 這還是業者要負責但是你到時候追不到呢會滾動來檢討因為他要20年的期間嘛那現在這些業者都在那另外有一部分的人沒有繳納這個我們都去吹繳他如果不繳的話我們就會移送法院去那所以這個機制是現在不繳有罰則嗎 罰款嗎吹繳 我們是 只有吹繳而已他不能罰 就是你只能跟人家說趕快繳錢 趕快繳錢然後你不能罰他嗎"},{"start":706.499,"end":728.096,"text":"因為這個是所謂公的義務如果他不繳的話我們會移送那個法院去查封他的財產或是未來要扣繳他的電費那部長你可不可以回答一下剛剛有說這個錢不夠到時候怎麼辦這個是需要一些財務模型的計算跟未來的量的推估然後因為現在的確我知道處理費用其實是比這個一千塊高很多啦"},{"start":728.456,"end":753.134,"text":"所以我們現在其實第一個是鼓勵市場上能夠更多人出來然後得到一個價量平衡當然我必須坦承說這個模型可能要再算一次那怎麼算 什麼時候可以算出來這個要我們再來協商最近一批大量廚藝是什麼時候2029到2031年左右2029到2031其實也快了2029也快了而且那一批應該也不少而且那個時候還是更早的技術"},{"start":754.154,"end":770.069,"text":"不多 那個時候還好就是早期的 因為那個大概從馬前總統的時候就開始有大量的在建了所以那一期大概都沒有叫所以那個也準備要除役啦馬上就會遇到這個問題對 未來再幾年那這個部分是不是那你們打算怎麼去做計算"},{"start":770.945,"end":789.449,"text":"基本上這個我們現在正在討論這個話題然後甚至說當然原來的想法是有一個基金是大水庫的理論但是未來呢我相信這個價量之間理論上是可以供需平衡的啦但是我們必須要再算一次好 本席今天已經點出幾個未來可能會發生的問題請環境部和經濟部應該要就此有精進作為好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時30分）謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：召委好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。部長，我第一個想要請教一下，目前全國實施垃圾不落地，並由垃圾車在定時定點清運，有些縣市可能還要使用專用垃圾袋，要仔細分類，通常民眾在等垃圾車的過程當中會預先把垃圾拿出來在路上，然後放在清運區集中並暫置，對不對？這部分沒有違法，對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：但如果是在非垃圾收集的時段，這樣子亂丟是不是就是違法的行為？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：是嘛，好、很好，謝謝部長。部長，簡單來說，垃圾車清運停靠區不是不能放垃圾，而是只能夠暫置，而且要遵守相關的程序規定，反之就是違法，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我想要另外請教一下，第一個，保護區可以倒廢瀝青嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上是不行的。"],["廖委員偉翔：不行嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，同樣我想要針對這樣子的廢棄物處理邏輯請問一下，在高雄大坪頂的垃圾事件，高雄市政府根據他們的法規自己解釋，他們說的確能夠放置相關廢棄物。但因為大坪頂地區是一個保護區，他們說可以放，可是沒有經過申請，主管機關無法監督、指導清運跟暫置的手續，這個在程序上是違法的事實，高雄市府自己也有開罰，那這樣算不算是亂倒？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這屬於地方事務，他們允許這家公司執行地方政府的公共工程，所以他們特別允許他有一個暫置的地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，但是他沒有申請。依據他們的地方法規說他合法，在法規上有去做這件事，可以去申請，可是他沒有申請，那請問，就像剛剛倒垃圾的概念一樣，他有這個法規，但是他沒有申請，這樣算不算是合法？"],["彭部長啓明：理論上是不可以的，但這應該是他跟……因為這是水利局的工程，然後他是接受水利局的委託處理這個事情，所以我相信他們可能有一些契約在做這件事。"],["廖委員偉翔：你相信他們，可是你並不曉得嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：我不知道，因為這是地方的事。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以我想要問一下，在保護區倒廢瀝青沒有違法，只是沒有申請，這是他們的說法喔！所以我也去查了一下高雄市政府水利局所說的，符合高雄市府認定的用途，依據都市計畫法高雄市施行細則的附表中有廢污水處理設施，但是這個細則的附表寫到保護區之土地及建築物以供國土保安、水土保持、維護天然資源與保護環境及生態功能為主，除了右列的規定外，不得為其他使用，而此列又是所謂的公用事業設施，而不是公用事業設施所產出的垃圾，所以我在想，是不是在這個法規上的解釋是有問題、不符合程序的？因為這部分有可能會變成一個通案，我想要請問一下部長你的態度是什麼？你們有什麼事情可以去協助的？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這屬於都計法，這是市政府他們自己訂的都計法，並不是我們環境部主管的法規，如果從常理來看的話，保護區的土地的確不適宜去倒這樣的廢棄物。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以部長的態度就是保護區的土地不適合去倒這樣的廢棄物嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：而且他沒有合法申請，所以也不能夠叫做暫置，等於是違法亂倒嘛！所以這個部分我想要請教，這是一個事件，可是這事件的背後跟我們今天很多委員討論到的一樣，不管是在處理整個建築廢棄物或是各種廢棄物的流程上面，我看這樣環境部好像會很難管理，部長你有沒有什麼可以協助的地方？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個事情是地方自治，我們也必須尊重地方單位，尤其這個施工是由當地的水利局，土地的主管機關也是水利局，所以我相信他們可能在某方面簡化了一些形式，我們會去了解這個到底怎麼走，但基本上如果這是一個保護區的話……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你可不可以去了解這個事件？因為它不見得只是一個地方自治的問題，因為這有關整個廢棄物清運，這跟你的主要業務有關係，而且他們如果這樣子……比如說美濃大峽谷挖一挖，最後可以放置的這些利益牽扯到的可能都是幾十億，部長，這會有問題的，而且對環境生態有很大的破壞，這跟等一下討論的光電板也有關係喔！"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長這部分你可以做什麼調查？或者是去了解他的……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們再詳細的去了解，因為這個畢竟是地方政府的工作，但我們會去了解，看他們到底在流程上面有什麼樣的問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：那部長您什麼時候可以給本席一個了解後的報告？他們到底發生什麼事，而且他們還有沒有其他類似的地方是沒有申請然後亂暫置的？你未來要怎麼精進？因為不見得只有高雄市政府啊！各個地方，南部現在很多地方都可能發生這種事情。"],["彭部長啓明：好，給我們1個月的時間，好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：好，拜託部長1個月的時間。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，再來我想要再進一步問，剛剛其實有幾個委員，包含剛剛陳菁徽委員提到，關於嘉義這次風災，光電板序號的問題，部長你當時其實有承諾9月中給，但是到現在沒辦法給，剛剛經濟部能源署也有說這個量體很大、很複雜，所以本席就想要追問，其實我覺得這是一個很大而且應該要精進的問題，這是不是在流程上面會有問題？因為這就跟當初在討論花蓮災後重建，或者是災後的廢棄物清理清運、回收，流程上面是不是有疏失？你們要怎麼精進？當已經發生的時候，你們沒有辦法馬上核對，或者是在清運的時候，你們有沒有要求業者怎麼樣給這些序號？比對你的資料庫跟他們報回來的序號，這不是現在電腦或系統輸入進去就可以看到有哪一些遺失、有哪一些沒有偵測到？照理說這應該是很快的事情，你們在流程上面有沒有去設計？這部分如果部長不能回答，你可以請經濟部的代表。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們當時訂序號的目的是為了淘汰除役的光電板，所以有做一個序號，因為這個有錢的對價關係。那這次為什麼比較慢？因為它是大量的被風災損毀，等於是要把它去化掉，所以這個數字上，我的確也在追這個數字，但這個有十幾萬片，有一點困難啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，這就是我要講的……"],["彭部長啓明：要一點點時間啦。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，請你先回答，因為我一直在強調這是一個工作流程上的問題。"],["李署長君禮：是，剛才講的十幾萬片，因為我們有業者他們每一片的帳單，但業者現在要去清點毀損的有12萬片左右，他們總共可能超過幾十萬片，有一部分毀損，所以他們要去核對到底是少了哪幾片，這個數量非常大，我們有叫他們清點出來。未來如果他們要復原的話，我們要清楚知道他們是哪幾片在做復原……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我認為你們這個要求和行政程序上面是不是有精進的地方？"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你有沒有要求他們現在去挖的時候，報回來的每一片都有序號，他們都要登記起來，然後每一段時間就必須回報到你這裡來……"],["李署長君禮：報告委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們要求的時間序有沒有問題？因為這也會牽扯到剛剛有委員給的照片，圖片上說你們說清理完99%，現在有十二萬多在暫置，但後來又有記者去報，再去挖土地之後發現還有破損的在土地裡面，所以這又要再追究一件事，放了太久，到底是誰去挖了再把它埋進去的？這就是現在造成的問題嘛，是不是？"],["李署長君禮：是，但現在陸續有一些零星的，可能是當時被泥土掩埋，下雨之後又沖刷出來的，或是有一些可能當時壓在下面，現在脫離、飄出來一些零星的。我們這兩天有再去看業者，業者有好幾百臺卡車都送出去了，他們不會剩下一、兩個，可能他們做的沒有落實，這一方面環境部有去開罰，我們也會叫業者再來做盤點。"],["廖委員偉翔：我建議你們應該要一起建置一個這樣子的平臺，這包含兩個很重要的因素，就是在網路上所謂的公開透明，譬如你有這些序號在這裡，這些序號現在怎麼跑，現在跑去哪裡了，被處理的怎麼樣？還在發電中還是什麼的？"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：這應該要公開透明的去展現出來之外，因為它有兩個用處，第一個用處，等一下也會討論到，但我們先針對這件事情，就是發生了災後廢棄物清理狀況，這個你後續要再來追，我跟你講，你一定很難追，你一定追不到，所以這代表現在的流程沒有即時公開透明。譬如說，業者一回報，你就應該要有一個資料庫知道現在回報的狀況是不是這樣子，包含案場整個破壞，這個案場到底是幾號到幾號的序號，你這樣子才有辦法管理嘛，現在看起來這個部分是沒有辦法，是不是可以請部長和次長，回去有一個精進作為的報告，也是一樣一個月好不好？我覺得廢棄物的部分也是後續的問題，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["廖委員偉翔：接下來，進一步一個月兩個部會跨部會去協調。最後一個問題，我會儘速，就是剛剛有討論到現在光電板有所謂的回收基金，對不對？"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在說預計2045年可以收到173億，看似是一大筆錢啦，可是遠遠不足以要支應預估的成本是397億，對不對？現在等於是還差很多喔！現在說預估可以收到173億，但是不足以支應的成本是397億，所以中間換句話說差了兩百二十幾億，本席就想要問這個部分怎麼辦？因為的確現在還沒有到要大量除役的時候，可是其實也快了，我們都已經看到這些問題跟剛剛所謂後續的處置，這個錢怎麼處理？"],["李署長君禮：報告，因為當時我們是每KW收1,000元，是依照當時的價格去計算……"],["廖委員偉翔：是啊！所以現在等於是擺明的收不夠嘛，還有包含2021年到2023年的回收清除處理費有四成沒有繳納，我就想問，到時候真的碰到大量除役的時候，這些錢或是不夠用的要怎麼處理？會不會變成我們要另外拿納稅人的錢來做回收？"],["李署長君禮：不會，這還是業者要負責，這個會……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是你到時候追不到呢？"],["李署長君禮：會滾動來檢討，因為他要20年的期間，現在這些業者都在，另外有一部分沒有繳納的人，我們都去催繳他，如果不繳的話，我們就會移送法院，所以這個機制是……"],["廖委員偉翔：現在不繳有罰則嗎？罰款嗎？"],["李署長君禮：催繳，我們是……"],["廖委員偉翔：就催繳而已，但不能罰，就是你只能跟人家說：趕快繳錢！然後你不能罰他？"],["李署長君禮：因為這是所謂公的義務，如果他不繳的話，我們會移送法院去查封他的財產，或是未來要扣繳他的電費。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你可不可以回答一下，剛剛有說這個錢不夠，到時候怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實需要一些財務模型的計算跟未來量的推估，因為現在的確我知道處理費用其實是比這1,000塊高很多，所以我們現在其實第一個，是鼓勵市場上能夠更多人出來，得到一個價量平衡，當然我必須坦承這個模型可能要再算一次。"],["廖委員偉翔：怎麼算？什麼時候可以算出來？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們要再來協商……"],["廖委員偉翔：最近一批大量除役是什麼時候？"],["彭部長啓明：2029到2031年左右。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實也快了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，也快了。"],["廖委員偉翔：而且那批應該也不少，那個時候還是更早的技術。"],["彭部長啓明：不多，那時候還好，早期的，因為那個大概從馬前總統的時候就開始有大量在建了，所以那期大概都沒有繳……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以那個也要準備除役了，馬上就會遇到這個問題，錢不夠怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：對，未來再幾年。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個部分你們打算怎麼去做計算？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上我們現在正在討論這個議題，當然原來的想法是有一個基金是大水庫的理論，但是未來我相信這個價量之間，理論上是可以供需平衡的，但是我們必須要再算一次。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席今天已經點出幾個未來可能會發生的問題，請環境部和經濟部應該就此有精進作為，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢。","接下來我們請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b07c5cee1630ddec46d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d2a1161ff5f2c303155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:30:20 - 11:41:27","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-20","start_time":"2025-10-20T11:30:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T11:41:27+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.30659375,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.99409375,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.31846875,"end":28.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.258468750000002,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.70534375,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.34096875,"end":51.330968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.68534375,"end":54.250343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.63846875,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.53221875,"end":108.89159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.19534375,"end":116.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.29534375,"end":127.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.82534375,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.66721875000002,"end":150.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.65721875,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.88284375,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.64596875,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.58221875,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.67471875,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.96534375000002,"end":177.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.80909375000002,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.49221875,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":186.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.71909375,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.65534375000001,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.57846875,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.21034375000002,"end":202.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.51409375,"end":202.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.30284375000002,"end":206.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.10846875000001,"end":206.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.69909375,"end":206.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.88471875000002,"end":220.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.76846875,"end":240.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.27596875,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.53721875000002,"end":272.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.79846875000004,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.89096875,"end":277.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.24909375000004,"end":281.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.01221875000005,"end":289.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.51721875000004,"end":321.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.66846875000005,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.18721875,"end":328.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.90784375000004,"end":330.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.23659375,"end":332.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.78909375,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.30284375,"end":344.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.73221875,"end":348.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.68534375,"end":349.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.65971875,"end":356.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.92034375000003,"end":365.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.77971875000003,"end":375.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.93846875,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.39971875000003,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.64846875,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.96846875,"end":401.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.53346875000005,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.65534375000004,"end":411.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.2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正負5%還有至少每四年都要英語檢討 對不對那個懷次長 我們有考量所以這五年來的退休金調漲應當有6%了吧"},{"start":243.876,"end":271.182,"text":"這都是為了配合物價來進行定期合理的檢討我們都希望保障退休人員的權益所以在年改的時候我們對於現在委員們在修法的時候說啊物價調升啊這個飛漲啊通膨啊其實當時在修法我們都一併的考量了更何況任何的物價的波動是所有的世代所有的職業都在面對嗎"},{"start":272.83,"end":289.478,"text":"對不對 下一頁所以民間呢 金明聯就出來倡議年金制度不換寡 而是換不均金明聯說 如果公教年改要再修至少要等全國老人都能夠月領八千"},{"start":290.598,"end":318.174,"text":"就是最起碼的生活照顧等全國老人都月領至少有八千以上政府再來啟動公教的年改因為我要再次說我們身為中華民國的立法委員我們要照顧的族群不是只有公教的退休人員我們要一併的照顧全職業各種十三類年金制度的所有國人"},{"start":319.214,"end":343.953,"text":"這才是我們的責任下一頁這一頁我們就用退休金比一比退休金比退休金喔這個是做出來的教育人員平均退府每個人領五七九七三五萬七 將近五萬吧公務人員平均可領是五零六五六 就是五萬出頭"},{"start":346.822,"end":363.09,"text":"這是公務人員的地板啊但是都遠高於勞保可領的人的天花板我們有勞動部的代表勞保勞退的平均可領的月退縫是25479"},{"start":366.131,"end":393.139,"text":"連公教人員的一半都勉強達不到更不要說老農津貼的天花板是81108000塊國民年金不到4000元這就是為什麼金明聯在倡議如果公教要改那讓全國的老人有8000的退休金保障再說這就是退休金比退休金"},{"start":394.471,"end":404.078,"text":"下一頁如果跟現職的人員比一比其實有一個核心的命題所謂公教人員的"},{"start":405.754,"end":431.514,"text":"基本生活維持的那個線要在哪裡才合理如果以主計總數一口之家二口之家三口之家四口之家都是兩萬五到三萬六之間的支出月領五萬以上的公教退休金絕對很難說他沒有辦法維持基本生活對不對兩位"},{"start":433.257,"end":454.534,"text":"更不要說最低生活勞動未還未扶不所列的所以月領五萬的退休金生活真的很難在台灣的現今社會我當然希望政府能夠保障的更多更好但是如果以主計總數的支出來比較的話我們看下一頁"},{"start":456.584,"end":465.149,"text":"又以退休生活跟現役的年輕世代領的跨領域的薪水這一頁來比這是主計總處的資料"},{"start":468.339,"end":491.17,"text":"剛剛說的教育人員月領五萬七起跳公教人員退休月領就是五萬起跳換言之教育人員的平均月退的年薪是大概七十萬左右這個七十萬左右的退休縫一年其實遠超過全台各年齡壽星者的一半以上"},{"start":492.785,"end":503.092,"text":"這是用退銷金比現役人員跨領域現役服務的壽星階級的比較所以我今天要說的是"},{"start":504.52,"end":522.229,"text":"到底一個基本的生活的那個線在哪裡才合理才合理好最後一頁我講到那個投資的那一頁剛剛有委員我再用30秒就好不好意思剛剛有委員說退府基金的投報率只有2%有這個數字嗎沒有嘛"},{"start":525.62,"end":546.247,"text":"至少年平均的投報也有5%對不對來次長您再說一次我們大概三年的收益率是8.88那是五年的話是9.36那十年是6.94所以平均average都是5%以上三年 五年 九年以上都是"},{"start":548.388,"end":569.267,"text":"8% 9%以上嗎所以我也算了我就是以這一本請委員問證的時候把資料讀清楚我以你們這一本第九次精算報告年改的節省加上投資這十年幾乎是倍翻的翻倍的我甚至剛剛聽您講說現在有一兆一千多億了是嗎我的資料是一兆873億"},{"start":571.309,"end":586.019,"text":"換言之我們投報是成長在這十年成長了這個破是成長95%嘛所以我們要把訊息講清楚錯誤的訊息在質詢台上絕對要清楚的導正我們希望"},{"start":587.399,"end":609.324,"text":"節約增加政府的撥補然後透過資息債券或者是投資能夠提高他的投報效率讓我們這個母樹這個pool可以更大更保障所有公務同仁而這幾年來95%的這個pool的資金基金的累積這是事實所以如果年改喊卡了"},{"start":610.936,"end":636.368,"text":"喊Color 錢滾錢喊Color 它在複利的時代就是為基金本來可以正向的貢獻更多的投報的成果現在反而大幅的破一天所以今天透過這個質詢我知道週四還有公聽會再一次期許向社會喊話我們對於所有退休人員的照顧保障要一視同仁"},{"start":637.168,"end":663.319,"text":"我們不可能只單為某一個族群的退休軍來做更多的挹注然後我們的老農們我們的勞工朋友們真的是最值得我們去關切的一個世代希望所有委員提案的時候我們真的能夠理性討論不可為者絕對不要強行為之辛苦兩位 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":678,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時30分）謝謝主席，有請朱次，還有懷次。"],["主席：有請兩位次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：兩位辛苦了。年改不走回頭路，過去大家都說公務人員是鐵飯碗，剛剛很多委員也都有垂詢到現在招募不易，我想我們如果連現職公務同仁的鐵飯碗都照顧不了，沒有辦法保障他們應得的退休生活，如何有更強的競爭力，向新的世代來招手呢？所以我們要很嚴峻地來面對公教退撫的樓地板，事實上除了是公務現職人員大概八成左右的規模跟收入，我們更要來比較，公教退撫的樓地板事實上是非公教人員的天花板。在跨職業別的部分，我們不只對年輕世代不公平，對非公教人員、需要國家照顧的這些國人，更是情何以堪？今天我的質詢就來看看公平正義在哪裡？","2018年改上路之後，成效看得見，世代有保障，確實透過我們的改革，充實了財政的水位，也達到了基金的永續，所以如我們過去的規劃，合計到現在挹注了三千八百多億，而整個基金運作的永續性比起原本即將用罄，已延後了它的基金永續年限。好，我不贅述。","我手上這厚厚一本是你們第9次的精算報告，其實有很多值得委員關心的地方，甚至我建議所有提案的委員都應當細讀，當這些提案的在野黨委員細讀了這一本精算報告之後，我認為他們都會回去重新思考他們提出來的反年改法案是不是正確的。第9次精算報告有兩個結論，第一個，公務人員的新制財政缺口需要逐年撥補，就是我們走在正確的道路上。第二個，制度的變動，如果有委員要提案修正的話，真的需要有完善的財政評估跟配套的財源，而不是說停就停、說喊卡就喊卡，我在這裡提到很清楚的數字都來自於這一本。朱次，你還有幾年退休？"],["朱次長俊彰：報告委員，還有13年。"],["吳委員思瑤：那你剛好就面臨那一個可能會用罄的年限。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果喊卡的話，教育人員的退撫基金可能會在13年後就用完了，而公務人員可能會到16年。懷次，您應該資深一點，應當退休的年限短了一點，您還是相對有受到保障的那個世代，是嗎？"],["懷次長敍：因為我已經做42年了。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，但如果像朱次或比朱次更年輕的世代，可能在未來，不管公或教，年金破產的話，誰都領不到，這完全不公平、不正義！","我們當時在年改的修法，就已經一致地去考量退休金的彈性調整機制，就是跟隨著CPI指數的正負百分之五，還有至少每四年應予檢討，對不對？懷次長，我們有考量，所以這五年來的退休金調漲應當有6%了吧？這都是為了配合物價來進行定期合理的檢討。我們都希望保障退休人員的權益，所以在年改的時候，我們對於現在委員們在修法的時候說的物價調升、飛漲、通膨，其實在當時修法我們都一併考量了，更何況任何物價的波動是所有的世代、所有的職業都在面對的，對不對？所以民間的經民連就出來倡議，年金制度不患寡而是患不均，經民連說：如果公教年改要再修，至少要等全國老人都能夠月領8,000，這是最起碼的生活照顧，等全國老人都至少月領8,000以上，政府再來啟動公教的年改。我要再次說，我們身為中華民國的立法委員，我們要照顧的族群不是只有公教的退休人員，要一併的照顧全職業，各種13類年金制度的所有國人，這才是我們的責任。我們就用退休金比一比，退休金比退休金，這個是做出來的，教育人員平均退撫每個人領5萬7,973、將近五萬八；公務人員平均可領5萬656、即五萬出頭，這是公務人員的地板，但是都遠高於勞保可領的人的天花板。我們有勞動部的代表，勞保勞退平均可領的月退俸是2萬5,479，勉強連公教人員的一半都達不到，更不要說老農津貼的天花板是8,110、8,000塊；還有國民年金不到4,000元。這就是為什麼經民連在倡議如果公教要改，就要讓全國的老人有8,000的退休金保障再說，這就是退休金比退休金。","如果跟現職的人員比一比，其實有一個核心的命題，維持公教人員基本生活的線要在哪裡才合理？如果以主計總處公告一口之家、二口之家、三口之家、四口之家，平均家庭支出都是2萬5,000到3萬6,000之間，因此月領5萬以上的公教退休金，絕對很難說他沒有辦法維持基本生活，兩位，對不對？更不要說衛福部所列的最低生活費。所以月領5萬的退休金生活真的很難……在臺灣的現今社會，我當然希望政府能夠保障的更多、更好。如果以主計總處的支出來比較的話，以退休生活跟現職的年輕世代、跨領域的薪水來比，這是主計總處的資料，剛剛說的教育人員月領5萬7,000起跳；公教人員退休月領5萬起跳，換言之，教育人員的平均月退的年薪大概是70萬左右，一年70萬左右的退休俸，其實遠超過全臺各年齡受薪者的一半以上，這是用退休金比跨領域現職人員與現職受薪階級的比較。所以我今天要說的是，到底基本的生活線在哪裡才合理？","最後，我講到投資的那一頁，我再用30秒就好，不好意思。剛剛有委員說，退撫基金的投報率只有2%，有這個數字嗎？沒有嘛！至少年平均的投報也有5%，對不對？來，次長，你再說一次。"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，我們3年的收益率是8.88%；5年的話是9.36%；10年是6.94%，這個我們都有公告在網站上面。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以平均、average都是5%以上，3年、5年、10年以上，都是8%、9%以上嘛！所以我也算了，我就是以這一本，請委員問政的時候要把資料讀清楚，我以你們這一本第9次精算報告，年改的節省加上投資這10年幾乎是翻倍的，甚至剛剛聽您講現在有一兆一千多億了，是嗎？我的資料是1兆873億，換言之，投報是成長，這個pool在這10年成長了95%嘛！所以我們要把訊息講清楚，錯誤的訊息在質詢臺上絕對要清楚的導正，我們希望節約，增加政府的撥補，然後透過孳息、債券或者是投資，能夠提高他的投報效率，讓母數、這個pool可以更大、更保障所有公務同仁。而這幾年這個pool有95%基金的累積，這是事實，所以如果年改喊卡了，喊卡了，錢滾錢啊，喊卡了，在複利的時代，基金本來可以正向貢獻更多投報的成果，現在反而大幅的破一個洞。","所以今天透過這個質詢，我知道週四還有公聽會，再一次期許向社會喊話，我們對於所有退休人員的照顧保障要一視同仁，不可能只單為某一個族群的退休金來做更多的挹注。老農們、勞工朋友們真的是最值得我們去關切的族群，希望所有委員提案的時候，真的能夠理性討論，不可為者絕對不要強行為之，辛苦兩位，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請郭昱晴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b04e4e008f682a5ff88348e19566c842c83c966d97180d5d2a1161ff5f2c303155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:29:17 - 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謝謝召委然後請葉主委我們再請葉主委"},{"start":16.789,"end":34.739,"text":"主委 委員長 主委今年的台灣的基因狀況還不錯啦特別是但上半年的部分表現相當的強勁那現在大家預估在今年的基因成長率大概是3到5之間那主委你們的評估呢"},{"start":35.299,"end":60.677,"text":"我覺得要過五也蠻有機會的因為像中金院的話都預估到5.45那一般來講我對中金院的預估的了解通常會比較保守一些對 所以中金院估到5.45所以今年的經濟成長率其實是相當強勁應該是不錯那五的話其實是非常亮麗的表現不管是在亞洲四小龍或在全世界來看這都是一個非常亮眼的表現"},{"start":61.698,"end":86.393,"text":"所以特別在上半年下半年因為現在還在涉及到跟台美之間的談判但是這個如果是五的話過五的話這個有考慮到了接下來十月份有可能發一萬元這樣的一個因素進去了嗎中晉園他們是有把這個已經把巴納進去了然後是會射算在那一個消費這一塊對所以他也會帶動整個消費跟刺激所以對經濟成長率還是會成長"},{"start":87.273,"end":103.496,"text":"說明期待啦齁那今年的五的話這樣看起來應該是樂觀去看待會過五啦齁那這是非常亮眼的成績啦齁那接下來明年度呢明年步現在看起來主委的看法呢有沒有機會但可能不會像今年這麼的漂亮啦齁"},{"start":105.256,"end":124.073,"text":"明年的話主計出預估是2.81那其他國外的機構大概預估大概在2.6左右那我個人的看法是說明年的話因為今年的基期比較高所以相對的就是在出口這一塊的話可能那個數字不會像今年這麼好看那投資的話那個動能都還在"},{"start":124.733,"end":153.796,"text":"那也是因為今年的基期比較高所以那個數字上面來講的話可能會往下掉一些明年的那一個經濟成長動能應該會來自消費這一塊所以消費我們還蠻樂觀就是說消費明年的話假如說搭配比如說像高雄這種演唱會經濟學的話經濟的話我想應該明年的消費應該會不錯然後整個股市的話也希望能夠持續今年的一個融解那會帶動所謂的所謂的財富消費"},{"start":154.056,"end":171.249,"text":"對 今年的股市或是出口或者是內需的整個狀況都相當的良好啦但明明我們希望持續那主委我們還是要設定一個好一點的目標嘛希望還是以寶山為過山為一個目標嘛對朝這個方向就是總是設定一個目標我們朝一個方向去做努力啦"},{"start":172.089,"end":185.625,"text":"也期盼明年有很好的成績啦我想執政其實就是希望給人民更多的這個不管是他的經濟上面或者收益上更好的一個狀況希望整個團隊是持續的努力來往這個方向推進"},{"start":186.846,"end":212.363,"text":"再來現在賴總統其實也提到了包括國發這邊AI的新十大建設我認為這個也很重要包括這段時間以來從我們過去的半導體到現在的AI的產業我們都持續大力推那我也認為現在這個時間點來推從AI去推一個新十大建設來整個帶動未來的台灣的整個長遠發展我認為很重要我們希望打造未來更多的護國群山"},{"start":213.143,"end":236.209,"text":"那我看到裡面有非常多的一些重要政策我也都很認同那高雄的部分其實在過去從九年前我不斷的倡議5G IoT的創新園區到後來蔡總統賴總統支持的雅灣這個雅灣的園區雅灣智慧科技創新園區171的投入那未來的部分這十大建設裡面"},{"start":237.829,"end":259.347,"text":"會持續的在高雄持續加碼做更多的投資跟支持嗎會會會在這一個部分來講的話我們也有跟那個高雄市政府就高雄市政府其實有來提案就是說是不是能夠把那個雅灣大算力放到那個新AI四大建設裡面那這個部分我們會所以雅灣的雅灣的計畫裡面有被放進來新十大建設裡面對我們會"},{"start":260.488,"end":271.277,"text":"因為重振過去以來這些的機會多不住在北部但是從這幾年你看不管是惠達AMD或等等其實包括大亞灣包括我們剛剛講的亞灣智慧科技創新研究院投了170億其實這個是非常具有潛力的一個地點所以我也希望國發會整合包括國科會包括經濟部包括各部會的力量持續的能夠對高雄的亞灣做更多的支持我認為這個對於均衡南北會很重要而且"},{"start":289.292,"end":316.65,"text":"高雄的港景高雄的這個人才的培育高雄的這些基礎建設等等我認為都是一個很大的一個厚實的一個基礎啦那主委要不要講一下未來會有哪些的計畫有可能會座落在高雄的未來的一些計畫部分的話就我看一下我這邊看一下跟高雄有什麼會有哪些計畫譬如說像那個剛剛有提到那個雅灣智慧科學創意園區嘛那另外一個我們會有一些"},{"start":321.186,"end":333.62,"text":"沒關係 主委回去盤點一下一個禮拜的時間給我啦好不好給我一下更具體的一些要投入的部分我也希望更清楚的看到那也彙整一下各部會的意見包括經濟部 國科會的意見讓我們看到這樣的"},{"start":336.102,"end":358.433,"text":"這個投資不是只有集中在北部而已而是中南部都會被重視到跟支持好不好那裡面其中有兩項是跟國國發會職業相關的包括人才的應用跟前億的創投基金資金的部分包括區域的AI的區域均衡發展這一塊我都希望國發會自己主導的要更加重視特別是"},{"start":359.233,"end":388.084,"text":"人才的部分這塊人才培育確實相當重要的工作我也希望能夠更具體的一些落實的做法進來那包括創投的基金過去創投基金基本上我也執行過歷任的很多的國發會主委大概都還是北部多南部少我希望這塊未來能夠持續的加重南部的力道給予他們更多的輔導跟支持跟協助讓他們有更多爭取到更多這些創投的基金來整個讓南部整個市場更加活絡"},{"start":389.184,"end":415.915,"text":"請主委要很有意識的往南部去思考因為南部的這個聚落需要政府更大力的支持才有辦法去推動起來好 謝謝那再來我請教一下其實高雄有第一個已經成立了建立了主權AI的城市包括它有智慧高雄的AI燈塔計畫這個部分會納入到整個新十大建設裡面嗎AI的新十大建設嗎"},{"start":418.622,"end":433.235,"text":"這個好像在上個禮拜雅萬指導委員會有討論這件事情有要納進去嗎我們會持續的去我希望主委支持啦好不好就是說智慧高雄的這個AI燈塔計畫納入到了AI的新十大建設裡面這也是一個"},{"start":434.095,"end":460.674,"text":"整合了地方的政府的意見整體出來的好不好我希望諸委大力來協助推動就是很多的建設絕對是建基在跟中央地方的合作的基礎之上這個才有辦法才落實那包括其實高雄的港口包括高雄的電力石化鋼鐵造船等等其都是強項我也希望未來這些都能夠在整體上面得到更多的一些思考就是AI絕對不是"},{"start":461.854,"end":478.067,"text":"他必須要建基在我們的很多基礎強項的一些產業上面推動他會有更達到更好的一些成效那剛提到不管是我們的鋼鐵石化電力造船其實都是高雄的強項我們希望他透過更多的AI智慧的這一塊的投入之後來達到更好的一個效果"},{"start":478.727,"end":501.839,"text":"希望這塊整體都納入那當然我們期待的是未來亞灣剛講到的大亞灣這樣的計畫能夠整個納入到整體的推動這個AI十大產業裡面其實把亞灣整體思考進來這一段這幾天的高雄市的粉紅色的這個Blackpink其實讓大家感受到確實高雄的企圖心跟魄力是相當強的那我們也希望"},{"start":502.539,"end":522.641,"text":"這些能夠未來透過更多的政府的支持讓整個一個港灣城市大亞灣的建設能夠得到全台灣全世界的高度關注好不好這請主委持續重視最後再提一個也是跟剛剛有關的創業天使投資方案我還是要強調我每次都問每一個主委這個一樣台北"},{"start":523.402,"end":550.144,"text":"拿到了176家總共金額25而高雄只有14家啦你看新竹都還有13台中13然後台南13其實這個台北一個就獨拿了176所以我還是要提醒北部真的佔有相當強大的一個優勢包括連新北市都拿到了35我希望足為要很有意識的去支持中南部的這個創業的天使的投資方案好不好"},{"start":550.384,"end":571.032,"text":"我每次都會問也每次都會講我希望要有具體的成果我希望很快至少看到至少要佔比比如說五分之一個比例落實在南部的地方好不好我希望有一些指數去看到國發會努力的成果要不然佔的比例其實相當低啦在這邊也請委員幫忙就是說我們有一個計畫叫做創業綻放啦"},{"start":572.392,"end":592.537,"text":"那各六都的那個報名的比例也是呈現雙北比較高 中央比較低這個請委員多多幫忙這個已經長久存在一些狀況所以我說的是需要國防外更多的去協助他們可能不一定知道怎麼提案也不一定知道怎麼去怎麼樣得到協助所以要有更多的輔導團去"},{"start":594.197,"end":613.235,"text":"到中部到南部去協助他們更多的提案他們如果他們知道有這些資源也好的運用的時候他們其實多數人是願意運用的那其實需要政府花更多力氣去協助他們不管是寫計畫或者輔導他們或者是去提出更好的一些方案出來我覺得政府的力道要再加大一點點好嗎好請主委重視這個問題好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":537,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時29分）謝謝召委，請葉主委。"],["主席：我們再請葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，今年臺灣的經濟狀況還不錯，特別是上半年的部分表現相當強勁，現在大家預估今年的經濟成長率大概是3%到5%之間，主委，你們的評估呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我覺得要過5%也滿有機會的，因為像中經院都預估到5.45%，一般來講，以我對中經院預估的了解，通常會比較保守一些。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，中經院估到5.45%，所以今年的經濟成長率其實相當強勁。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：應該是不錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：到5%的話其實是非常亮麗的表現，不管是在亞洲四小龍或者在全世界來看，這都是一個非常亮眼的表現。特別是上半年，下半年因為現在還涉及到臺美之間的談判，如果是5%的話，這個有考慮到接下來11月份可能發1萬元的因素進去了嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：中經院有把這個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：已經把這個納進去了。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，會設算在消費這一塊。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以這會帶動整個消費跟刺激，所以對經濟成長率還是會成長。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們也期待。今年這樣看起來應該是樂觀去看待會過5%，這是非常亮眼的成績。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來明年度呢？明年度現在看起來……主委的看法呢？有沒有機會……可能不會像今年這麼的漂亮？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，當然，明年主計總處預估是2.81%，其他國外的機構預估大概在2.6%左右。我個人的看法是，明年因為今年的基期比較高，所以相對在出口這一塊可能數字不會像今年這麼好看；投資的動能都還在，也是因為今年的基期比較高，所以數字上面來講可能會往下掉一些；明年的經濟成長動能應該會來自消費這一塊，所以對於消費我們還滿樂觀，明年的消費假如搭配一些，比如像高雄這種演唱會經濟的話，我想明年的消費應該會不錯；然後整個股市也希望能夠持續今年的榮景，會帶動所謂的財富效果。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，今年股市、出口或者是內需的整個狀況都相當良好，但明年我們希望持續。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我們還是要設定一個好一點的目標，希望還是以過3%為一個目標嘛？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，我……"],["賴委員瑞隆：朝這個方向，總是設定一個目標，我們朝一個方向去做努力，也期盼明年有很好的成績，我想執政就是希望給人民更多在經濟上或者收益上更好的狀況，希望整個團隊持續努力來往這個方向推進。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，現在賴總統其實也提到了，包括國發會這邊的AI新十大建設，我認為這個也很重要，包括這段時間以來，從我們過去的半導體到現在的AI產業，我們都持續大力推，現在這個時間點從AI去推一個新十大建設來帶動未來臺灣的長遠發展，我也認為很重要，我們希望打造未來更多的護國群山，我看到裡面有非常多的重要政策，我也都很認同。關於高雄的部分，過去從9年前我不斷的倡議5G、IoT的創新園區，到後來蔡總統、賴總統支持的亞灣智慧科技創新園區、170億的投入；未來的部分，這個十大建設裡面會在高雄持續加碼做更多的投資跟支持嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會！在這一個部分，我們也有跟高雄市政府……高雄市政府其實有來提案，是不是能夠把亞灣大算力放到AI新十大建設裡面？這個部分我們會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以亞灣的計畫有被放進來新十大建設裡面？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，我們會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為過去這些機會多數在北部，但是從這幾年來看，不管是輝達、AMD等等，其實包括大亞灣、包括我們剛剛講的亞灣智慧科技創新園區就投了170億，其實這個是非常具有潛力的一個地點，所以我也希望國發會整合，包括國科會、包括經濟部、包括各部會的力量，能夠持續對高雄亞灣做更多的支持。我認為這個對於均衡南北會很重要，而且像是高雄的港景、高雄的人才培育、高雄的基礎建設等等，我認為都是一個很大、厚實的基礎。主委要不要講一下未來會有哪些計畫可能會做落在高雄？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：關於未來的一些計畫，我看一下……"],["賴委員瑞隆：跟高雄有關的會有哪些計畫？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：譬如像剛剛有提到亞灣智慧科學創新園區，另外我們會有一些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒關係，主委回去盤點一下，一個禮拜的時間給我。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好！沒問題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：給我更具體要投入的部分，我希望更清楚地看到，也彙整一下各部會的意見，包括經濟部、國科會的意見，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：讓我們看到這樣的投資不是只有集中在北部而已，而是中南部都會被重視跟支持，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會！"],["賴委員瑞隆：其中有兩項是跟國發會直接相關的，包括人才應用跟千億創投基金、資金的部分，包括AI的區域均衡發展，這一塊我都希望國發會自己主導的要更加重視。特別是人才的部分，這一塊人才培育確實是相當重要的工作，我也希望能夠有一些更具體的落實作法進來；包括創投基金，過去以來，針對創投基金我也質詢過歷任很多位國發會主委，大概都還是北部多、南部少，我希望這一塊未來能夠持續加重南部的力道，給予他們更多的輔導、支持跟協助，讓他們有機會爭取到更多的創投基金，讓南部整個市場更加活絡，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請主委要很有意識地往南部去思考，因為南部聚落需要政府更大力的支持才有辦法推動起來。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。再來我請教一下，其實高雄是第一個已經建立主權AI的城市，包括有智慧高雄的AI燈塔計畫，這個部分會納入到AI新十大建設裡面嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好像在上個禮拜的亞灣指導委員會有討論這件事情……"],["賴委員瑞隆：有要納進去嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們會持續去……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望主委支持，好不好？將智慧高雄的AI燈塔計畫納入到AI新十大建設裡面，這也是整合了地方政府意見整理出來的，我希望主委大力來協助推動。很多的建設絕對是建基在中央跟地方合作的基礎之上，這個才有辦法來落實，包括高雄的港口，包括高雄的電力、石化、鋼鐵、造船等等，其實這些都是強項，我也希望未來這些都能夠在整體上面得到更多的思考。AI必須要建基在很多我們基礎強項的一些產業上面推動，這會達到更好的成效，剛剛提到的鋼鐵、石化、電力、造船其實都是高雄的強項，我們希望這方面透過更多AI智慧這一塊的投入來達到更好的效果，好不好？希望這一塊整體都納入。","當然我們期待未來的亞灣，剛剛講到了大亞灣這樣的計畫能夠納入到整體的推動，在AI十大產業裡面把亞灣整體思考進來，這幾天高雄市粉紅色的BLACKPINK讓大家感受到高雄的企圖心跟魄力確實是相當強的，我們也希望未來能夠透過更多政府的支持，讓整個港灣城市、大亞灣的建設能夠得到全臺灣、全世界的高度關注，好不好？請主委持續重視。","最後再提一個，也是跟剛剛有關的創業天使投資方案，我還是要強調，我每次都問每一個主委，這方面也一樣，臺北拿到了176家，總共金額是25億，而高雄只有14家，你看新竹都還有13、臺中13、臺南13，臺北一個就獨拿了176，所以我還是要提醒，北部真的占有相當強大的優勢，包括連新北市都拿到了35，我希望主委要很有意識地去支持中南部的創業天使投資方案，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我每次都會問、也每次都會講，我希望要有具體的數據，我希望很快能看到至少有占比五分之一的比例落實在南部地方，好不好？我希望有一些指數去看到國發會努力的成果，要不然占的比例其實相當的低。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在這邊也請委員幫忙，我們有一個計畫叫做創業綻放，六都報名的比例也是呈現雙北比較高、中南部比較低，這個請委員多多幫忙。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個已經是長久存在的一些狀況，所以我說的是需要國發會更多去協助。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會！"],["賴委員瑞隆：他們可能不一定知道怎麼提案、也不一定知道怎麼樣得到協助，所以要有更多的輔導團去到中部、南部協助他們有更多的提案，如果他們知道有這些資源、也有好運用的話，他們多數人是願意運用的，其實這需要政府花更多的力氣去協助他們，不管是寫計畫或者輔導他們提出一些更好的方案出來，我覺得政府的力道要再加大一點點，好嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請主委重視這個問題。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請呂玉玲委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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鮑委員我們的建造是按照節點但是我們的測試的確因為測試的衍生工程面的一個部分我們需要去解決的問題那的確是有兩個月的delay所以我們在11月份要達成這個測試然後這會比較的挑戰所以有可能我們這個整個測試的期程會往後所以看來應該不可能完成了嘛但是我們目前也是儘快能夠達到這個潛航準備的時候我們就會出去做後續的測試"},{"start":123.531,"end":136.691,"text":"那我再請教一下海空號的港測的項目是不是一定要全部做完才能夠滿足整個出海的條件呢還是說可以跳過有些部分的測試項目就可以先進行海測呢"},{"start":138.342,"end":161.058,"text":"報議員 我們整個的測試它有一定的測試程序書那我們整個從港測到海測中間我們都經過技協跟專業的建造還有這個廠方我們會來完整訂定整個測試的期程所以它是按照一個測試的期程跟建造的規範書我們把測試的這個次序訂出來之後按照這樣來做推動"},{"start":161.738,"end":174.686,"text":"所以港測的項目是幾乎全部都有完成嗎是只有部分可能需要不影響實際上操作的那其他都還有解決方案的所以剛才我的意思就是說所以還是有跳過部分測試的項目嗎對不對"},{"start":177.128,"end":193.161,"text":"有些的部分它就像IPMS可能當初就有幾個測像是需要但是它不影響實際的操作那我們也是在審核了整個安全機制沒有問題然後這些也必須要能夠先去做必要的測試能夠發掘問題才能夠解決問題"},{"start":195.143,"end":211.103,"text":"所以現在的意思就是說其實海昆號的港車其實都還沒有完全的做完但是海軍覺得安全無虞所以為了趕時間就先出海然後做部分的海撤項目對不對我請那個海拔中心主任解釋一下"},{"start":212.41,"end":221.294,"text":"各位委員報告所有的測試都有缺點在缺點不影響我們海上航行安全的話我們都會先執行測試讓我們所有的測試都經過聯測之後發覺問題我們趕快去解決他的問題"},{"start":227.153,"end":242.66,"text":"所以海昆澳到底有沒有符合可以出海的條件呢到底是不是真的安全無虞呢現在依照國防部報告的整個內容我看IPMS跟主機與電力管理的整個系統無論問題的大小現在幾乎都還沒有被變出海對吧"},{"start":247.346,"end":267.375,"text":"跟委員報告我們整個的IPMS的測試程序完整做過了你做過之後就會發生有些的信號調效跟部分的還有些技術面的一個還要再重新的再做缺改所以現在會配合這個我們下一次出海前的部分我們做必要的一個調效跟缺改來達到出海的目標"},{"start":268.348,"end":279.898,"text":"其實這兩個系統其實都是非常有關海空號的基本安全的重要的系統現在潛艦的IPMS系統如果沒有發揮整個作用的話那等於是在開一艘二戰時期的潛艦每個部分都是要怎麼作動甚至船艦發生起火還有進水還有漏電都需要靠人力用含的潛艦還不能進行自動損管也就是說艦艇在遭受損害的時候還沒有辦法自行"},{"start":296.472,"end":303.776,"text":"去應急這整個處理就像我們的人體一樣所有的器官都是好的但是神經系統沒有用大腦指令傳達出問題這不是就像了自律神經一樣失調嗎那請問一下你們認為可以讓一個自律神經失調的潛艦出海這樣是安全的嗎"},{"start":314.331,"end":336.466,"text":"跟委員報告它整個IPMS它是一個整合的一個測試它其實重要的是在它的自動控制信號的傳輸那包含我們現在現有兩條那個海龍跟海虎級它的設計的方法跟這個自動化程度也是有一定的這一個演進的所以現在的海昆圈當然是比海龍海虎要好"},{"start":337.026,"end":342.087,"text":"但它基本的操作它有一定的安全連動性就算這些的IPMS信號傳輸跟整個操控上我們還是會從裡面整個連動裡面它還有一些如果說我們有沒測到但是我們的系統都可以做到一些安全的一個管控的部分這些小部分的部分我們都繼續在做一些調效跟測試之中"},{"start":359.571,"end":371.498,"text":"其實整艘潛艦我看不論是主系統次系統還有子系統幾乎都是要靠電力系統來供電但是偏偏電力系統的問題到現在都還沒有辦法解決尤其是損管的問題整個潛艦的鏡頭還有感測器都是必須要有電才可以如果損管這個整個系統如果沒有辦法偵測潛艦是否有進水還有火災還有煙霧這個問題都要靠人力來回報這樣的"},{"start":387.609,"end":392.456,"text":"潛艦安全是十分的堪慮的那自動充電的具體是硬體問題還是軟體的問題呢還有電力系統究竟還有哪些問題還沒有解決的還是根本沒有辦法解決到底是發生了什麼問題可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":403.577,"end":420.748,"text":"各位委員報告 委員您剛才有提到它整個潛艦是靠主機來發電發電端之後它會到我們的電瓶系統在把整個的推動力的這個動力的傳輸到我們的後面的這個車業馬達來推動那所以它整個是一道比較"},{"start":421.508,"end":445.236,"text":"我想我們在報告裡面也特別提到說一個潛艦的核心的一個關鍵就是它傳動動力能夠盡早的達成所以現在這個目前的部分都是單機的跟我們上次以三次扶航就是已經把這個動力的部分推進已經沒有問題了那後面針對有些信號在調校你剛才提那個損管的部分我們現在損管的部分都是正常並沒有如傳聞所說的其他的這些問題"},{"start":446.957,"end":455.547,"text":"所以台灣其實要製造一個國造潛艦其實是非常困難我們當然都是可以體諒但是國防部也要再要跟大家說實話因為潛艦本來就是在一個極端環境下作戰的軍備都不能有任何的損失"},{"start":461.854,"end":471.8,"text":"不然會危害國軍的人命而且甚至影響國民和國家的士氣所以絕對是不可以有任何失誤的過去關於潛艦的意外其實往往代價都是付出都是非常的沉重所以請國防部千萬千萬不要省略了任何安全性的測試的步驟可以保證嗎"},{"start":481.826,"end":509.214,"text":"報告委員我們這個部長已經一再的對外公開說明絕對是在安全的情況下我們才會繼續進行一切的測試跟這個調校那剛才也說過了外面很多現在的傳聞並不是真實的那我們只是我們是在測試的過程中的確遭遇到一些delay跟一些要重新調整的問題那我們現在還在繼續的繼續努力所以建造的部分是完全按照節點進行"},{"start":510.534,"end":517.218,"text":"測試的部分遭到部分的這個這個延後那我們也現在也發覺出問題來繼續在持續的做後續的這個進一步的這個調整讓這個可以做完整並且安全的測試能達到這個潛艦的公式性能所以是的我們會非常重視在安全的原則之下我們才來完成這個潛艦的建造"},{"start":534.833,"end":542.571,"text":"接下來我再請教一個問題就是海空號未來開始做潛航測試的時候會有深水潛航對不對是的"},{"start":545.175,"end":566.027,"text":"潛艦最大的設計就是下潛的深度一般來說這個是機密的啦但是不代表不用測試如果不做最大的深潛的測試的話海軍就沒有辦法知道在極端的環境下會遇到什麼問題甚至能不能下潛到最大的設計深度我想請教一下就是海空號會做到最大的深潛的測試"},{"start":568.057,"end":577.992,"text":"這是當然都會做這當然就是跟這艘潛艦能不能達到我們設計的工性是有非常密切的關係當然該做的測試我們一定都會做"},{"start":579.127,"end":608.206,"text":"好所以剛才我們談了那麼多像這些問題海軍有沒有預計有沒有什麼克服的時間還是說國防部隊延後時程根本都沒有辦法掌握我們都有部裡頭實際上他這個每個禮拜都會過來跟部長做這個專案的報告那我們都有掌握他現在遭遇到的問題還有他們排除的方法以及後續我們要達成的目標國防部都有掌握我們也有這個信心這海軍號可以海軍可以在一定的這個"},{"start":609.267,"end":613.659,"text":"目標原則之下把它達成我們所需要達成的目的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":589,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時21分）謝謝主席，有請執行官。"],["主席：請副總長還有參謀長。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：您好。首先我先針對今天送來的書面報告的內容，本席收到報告的時候覺得看起來很熟悉，就請助理用電腦AI比對海軍在10月13號發出的新聞稿內容，結果顯示裡面的內容百分之七十五以上跟海軍10月13號發布的新聞稿內容一模一樣，除了第1頁的摘要報告外，其餘內容都幾乎雷同。想請國防部到立法院做專案報告的時候要認真面對，不要拿舊的新聞稿直接改標題，這樣的話我覺得是有點企圖敷衍我們國會立委，所以未來請改進。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，不敢敷衍，只是這個是公開會議，所以我們基本上來講是以能公開、能揭露的資訊來做報告。委員如果對這個報告內容有所建言的話，我們回去也會改進。"],["林委員憶君：好，接下來我進入正題，國造潛艦海鯤號，現在是全臺灣人民，甚至全世界高度關注的國防自主，但是看來海鯤號在9月底完成海測的目標已經跳票了。按照這個進度，你覺得11月交艦的目標還有機會完成嗎？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：這一部分我們請海軍參謀長跟您做詳細的答復。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。報告委員，我們建造是按照節點，但是我們的測試，因為測試而衍生工程面的部分，我們需要去解決問題，的確是有兩個月的delay，所以我們在11月份要達成這個測試，這部分會比較有挑戰，所以有可能我們這整個測試的期程會往……"],["林委員憶君：所以看來應該不可能完成了嘛？在11月。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，但目前也是儘快能夠達到潛航準備的時候，我們就會出去做後續的測試。"],["林委員憶君：好，那我再請教一下，海鯤號港測的項目是不是一定要全部做完，才能夠滿足整個出海的條件呢？還是可以跳過有些部分的測試項目，就可以先進行海測呢？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們的整個測試有一定的測試程序書，從港測到海測的過程之間，都經過技協、專業監造和廠方完整訂定整個測試的期程，所以我們是透過測試期程跟建造的規範書把測試的次序定出來之後，按照這樣來推動。"],["林委員憶君：所以港測的項目幾乎全部都有完成嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，只有部分不影響實際操作的，也還有其他解決方案的，我們就會去……"],["林委員憶君：所以我剛才的意思就是還是有跳過部分的測試項目，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：因為有些部分……就像IPMS當初就有幾個測項是需要的，但是它不影響實際操作，我們也審核過整個安全機制沒有問題，這些項目也必須先作必要測試，發掘問題才能解決問題。"],["林委員憶君：所以你現在的意思就是海鯤號的港測其實還沒有完全作完，但是海軍覺得安全無虞，為了趕時間就先出海，作部分海測項目，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我請海發中心主任解釋。"],["顧主任志中：跟委員報告，所有測試都有缺點，如果缺點不影響海上航行安全的話，我們都會先執行測試，讓所有測試都經過聯測之後發掘問題，我們趕快解決問題。"],["林委員憶君：所以海鯤號到底符不符合可以出海的條件、到底是不是真的安全無虞呢？依照國防部整個報告內容，我看IPMS跟主機與電力管理的整個系統無論問題大小，現在幾乎都還沒有備便出海，對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，整個IPMS的測試程序完整做過了，做過之後就會發現信號調校等部分還有一些技術面問題需要重新缺改，所以我們會配合在下一次出海前做必要的調校跟缺改，達到出海的目標。"],["林委員憶君：其實這兩個系統都是跟海鯤號基本安全非常相關的重要系統，現在潛艦的IPMS系統如果沒有發揮整個作用，那等於是在開一艘二戰時期的潛艦，每個部分要怎麼作動，甚至船艦起火、進水、漏電，都需要靠人力、用喊的，潛艦還不能進行自動損管。也就是說艦艇在遭受損害的時候還沒有辦法自行應急處理，就像我們人體一樣，所有器官都是好的，但是神經系統沒有用、大腦指令傳達出問題，這不就像自律神經失調一樣嗎？請問一下，你們認為可以讓一艘自律神經失調的潛艦出海，這樣是安全的嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，整個IPMS是整合測試，重要的其實是在自動控制信號的傳輸。我們現有兩條海龍跟海虎級軍艦的設計方法跟自動化程度也有一定的演進，現在的海鯤艦當然比海龍、海虎要好，但是基本操作有一定的安全連動性，就算在IPMS信號傳輸跟整個操控上，我們還是會從連動裡面檢測，如果有沒測到的，系統也都可以做到安全的管控，對於這些小的部分，我們都在繼續調校跟測試中。"],["林委員憶君：其實我看整艘潛艦，無論是主系統、次系統或子系統，幾乎都要靠電力系統供電，偏偏電力系統的問題到現在都還沒辦法解決，尤其是損管問題，但整個潛艦的鏡頭和感測器都必須有電才可以啊！如果整個損管系統沒有辦法偵測潛艦是否有進水、火災、煙霧問題，都要靠人力回報的話，這樣的潛艦安全是十分堪慮的。那麼自動充電具體上是硬體問題還是軟體問題呢？電力系統究竟還有哪些問題沒解決呢？還是根本沒有辦法解決？到底發生了什麼問題，可以說明一下嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，您剛才提到，整個潛艦是靠主機發電，發電端之後會傳送到電瓶系統，再把整個動力傳輸到後面的車葉馬達來推動，所以整個是依照比較……我們在報告裡也特別提到潛艦的核心關鍵就是傳送動力要能儘早達成，目前這個部分都是單機，我們在上次浮航動力推進這個部分已經沒有問題了，後面正在針對一些信號調校。您剛才提到的損管部分現在都正常，並沒有如傳聞所說的這些問題。"],["林委員憶君：臺灣要製造國造潛艦其實是非常困難的，我們當然都可以體諒啦！但是國防部也要跟大家說實話，因為潛艦本來就是在極端環境下作戰的軍備，不能有任何損失，不然會危害國軍的人命，甚至影響國民還有國家的士氣，所以是絕對不可以有任何失誤的。過去關於潛艦的意外付出的代價往往都非常沉重，所以請國防部千萬、千萬不要省略任何安全性測試的步驟。可以保證嗎？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，部長已經一再對外公開說明，絕對是在安全的情況下才會繼續進行一切測試跟調校。剛才也說過，現在外面很多傳聞並不是真實的，我們在測試過程中的確遭遇到一些delay跟需要重新調整的問題，現在還在繼續努力。所以建造部分完全按照節點進行，測試遭到部分延後，我們現在也發掘出問題，持續做後續進一步的調整，讓潛艦可以做完整且安全的測試，以達到潛艦的功、性能。所以是的！我們會非常重視，在安全的原則之下才完成潛艦的建造。"],["林委員憶君：好。接下來我再請教一個問題，就是海鯤號未來開始做潛航測試的時候會有深水潛航對不對？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是的。"],["林委員憶君：潛艦最大的設計就是下潛深度，一般來說這是機密，但是不代表不用測試。如果不做最大深潛測試的話，海軍就沒有辦法知道在極端環境下會遇到什麼問題，甚至能不能下潛到最大設計深度。那我想請教一下，海鯤號是否會做到最大的深潛測試？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：測試當然都會做，這跟這艘潛艦能不能達到我們設計的功性能有非常密切的關係，該做的測試我們一定都會做。"],["林委員憶君：剛才我們談了那麼多，對於這些問題，海軍有沒有預計克服的時間？還是國防部對延後時程根本都沒辦法掌握？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：其實他們每個禮拜都會到部裡向部長做專案報告，我們都有掌握他們現在遭遇的問題、排除的方法，以及後續要達成的目標。國防部都有掌握，我們也有信心，對於海鯤號，海軍可以在一定的目標原則之下達成我們需要達成的目的。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有王定宇委員、沈伯洋委員、楊瓊瓔委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請國防部以書面於2周內答復；委員另約定期限者，從其所定。我們今天有特別要求台船、海軍與國防部一併確認、提供相關資料，另外，要測的深度也要提供資料，好不好？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},{"id":"164413","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164413","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b54f4ef35c9cfaf94720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d2233332d118b3cbf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:16:05 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我們是不是有請我們環境部的部長還有經濟部的次長還有農業部的次長王委員好"},{"start":19.99,"end":49.51,"text":"部長我請教你現在這個光電的議題有多面向的議題包括應該要環評的議題還有就是光電板之前丹納斯風災之後他整個清運管理的問題還有最近大家一直在爭論的到底光電板要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題部長我先請教你到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑清潔就你掌握的"},{"start":50.19,"end":79.06,"text":"從環境部知道的據我所知道的是不需要 他用清水沖洗就可以那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗這個我不清楚 因為我所知道是沒有啦你知道是沒有我知道是沒有好來 那我們就叫經濟部 來 次長好 委員好次長 你這個經濟部有發文嘛說清洗光電板真的不需要用這個清潔劑喔那但是呢 網路上面現在有一個被截圖的"},{"start":79.42,"end":106.27,"text":"就是說這一個看起來他也是一個業界在清洗的業者那他曾經講過他說今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹效果比粉紅豹好很多但需要更多的測試才能確定噴藥感還有進步的空間請問這個次長你有沒有掌握有這一篇的這樣的一個發文"},{"start":108.898,"end":137.567,"text":"報告委員 這個我第一次看到但是跟委員說明網路上的訊息非常的多但是網路上也有一些的訊息是假的訊息我必須要去做領取我要求經濟部去查明因為你們是發文說不需要這個清潔劑我今天就提供這一則我們的要求裡面也要求他不需要如果這個是假消息 那就去開罰他好不好 不可以任意發這樣的文"},{"start":138.607,"end":143.429,"text":"我們非常反對錯假的這個訊息好 那我就正式提供這一則你好好去確認清楚因為這一則文這個看起來這一位人士他PO的相關的文章都是跟清洗有關的"},{"start":155.655,"end":181.168,"text":"那他就是曾經PO出這個文其實已經被截圖出來了那這個部分我希望經濟部好好去查接下來我們來看一下如果光電板完全是不需要清洗劑來清洗的那請問市面上的這一些現在在網路上面可以找到的這一些標榜太陽能板的洗劑喔他們可不可以這樣子販售"},{"start":182.228,"end":202.524,"text":"如果太陽板是不需要清洗劑的他可不可以去販售標榜太陽能板的洗劑而他這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板是不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話那為什麼市面上會有這樣子的一個產品"},{"start":204.802,"end":230.581,"text":"這個我們來了解啦所有的產品到我們台灣的這個社會上它必須要符合相關的這個產品的規範那剛剛委員所說的我再次跟委員強調水面型的這個太陽能板它事實上它就鋪在水面上它清洗它就是直接汲取當地的這個水用清水來做一個清洗對 你講的是水面型對不對那我問你路上型的呢"},{"start":231.261,"end":255.781,"text":"路上型基本上不管是水面型或是路上型他太陽能板他會有灰塵會有一些也許是一些大自然上面的一個髒污物那這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗他就可以達到他的效果那次長我問你那如果有業者他是用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板有沒有違法可不可以"},{"start":256.175,"end":272.917,"text":"我們目前所發的這個相關的這個許可書裡面我們是希望我們是禁止他使用我們會加強查核水面型跟路上型都完全禁止這個水面型的部分我們有特別的規範那路上型有沒有禁止"},{"start":274.537,"end":294.801,"text":"路上行的部分我確實在了解一下在跟委員你現在還不知道光電板已經我們已經運作多久了現在到底路上行的光電板清洗可不可以使用清潔劑市長你不知道基本上我們希望他設置的這個地方那署長來署長要回答來署長來"},{"start":300.407,"end":326.487,"text":"你們現在到底經濟部或者是能源署有沒有禁止路上行的這些光電板禁止用清潔劑來清洗它在做大規模清潔的時候我們是絕對禁止的那但是如果它是少數的地方比如說那個地方有鳥屎我們是允許它用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑清除的我們是禁止它用大規模"},{"start":326.707,"end":343.687,"text":"你們在相關的簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎這是我們日常的管理裡面做的那他如果違反有罰則嗎違反的話當然我們會正常我們會請他改善他如果沒有改善的時候呢我們最終可以停止他購電"},{"start":345.066,"end":366.883,"text":"其實你們現在關於到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情是沒有一個明確的規範原則是禁止的那它如果有特殊的原因那你知道市面上這些到底賣到哪裡去還標榜太陽能板洗劑我想那個我們來了解它那個產品到底是賣到哪裡我們來了解"},{"start":368.421,"end":395.554,"text":"我希望你們好好的了解接下來我要問這個農業部剛剛這個經濟部說原則上他是禁止用這個清潔劑來清洗這個太陽能光電板的但是之前有媒體到這個實地訪查的時候在南部這個有農民就很擔心他們看到有人在洗這個光電板那個污水就直接流下來然後他也沒有做任何的隔離措施然後就會污染到他的農地"},{"start":396.674,"end":425.44,"text":"這個部分農業部有掌握嗎跟委員報告事實上在水面型也好或者是我們漁電共生型的這個案場也好我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗的那至於委員所說的在其他的這種案場的這個現況的話我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息我們會來了解因為基本上他一般的清洗來說的話只是需要用清水來清洗就可以了事實上應該不需要用到這個"},{"start":426.861,"end":435.391,"text":"就是再用額外的洗劑來做加強你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎目前我沒有聽到委員所說的這個部分"},{"start":440.3,"end":459.757,"text":"這個部分我真的認為我們的主管機關要好好瞭解實際運作狀況如果你們都說哎呀不需要啊也不可能啊那市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑那請問他是賣到哪裡去啊那你有沒有掌握那個流量啊那這件事情到底是完全禁止"},{"start":460.758,"end":488.506,"text":"還是你是允許有一部分是可以使用還是你是水面完全禁止陸地上你部分是可以開放使用我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範當你們這麼不明確的時候你認為這些光電板業者他遵循的是哪一套也不清楚啊那我再問一下環境部部長你在回答媒體的時候你說農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準上午的時候你有這樣講農業部也要訂嗎"},{"start":490.84,"end":513.397,"text":"我記得是因為陳部長我們在協商這個問題的時候他會要求說他會在清洗的過程當中他會把它變成檢查的一個項目之一是 那如果按照剛剛講的這個未來你要訂定的到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑還是你是會開放清潔劑你們現在的方向到底是什麼不准用"},{"start":515.194,"end":534.64,"text":"水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑陸地型的陸地通常像魚電工生這種也不會但是剛才講如果他有一些特殊的原因比如說他有鳥水還是什麼卡在上面他需要特別的話才會讓他用那他這樣子是可以被同意但是原則上是原則禁止的"},{"start":535.069,"end":562.635,"text":"所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用或是說有其他的污染它確實沒有辦法它有一定的條件它就確實沒有辦法那另外它設置的地點比如說它是屋頂型的那這一方面我們是覺得它如果確實有什麼污染不用洗劑沒有辦法清除那我們可以接受那其他所謂水面型的或是在這個漁電共生的或是在這個一般土地的我們是禁止的"},{"start":563.724,"end":587.351,"text":"這個部分我覺得現在主管機關的這個白紙黑字的你們這個明確化東西真的不明確所以我希望你們可以盡快制定出來一個光電板的清洗的管制作業標準從經濟部到農業部到環境部你們定出來的標準是一致的不要說問能源署可以問農業部說不可以問環境部又說可以"},{"start":588.231,"end":610.274,"text":"不能是這樣子三個不同的部會其實大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的我要求這個部分應該要制定那是誰要來制定是農業部還是經濟部還是環境部抱歉您講的是光電板清洗管制標準這個可以由我們來訂沒有問題經濟部要來訂嗎那大概多久可以訂出來"},{"start":611.074,"end":626.892,"text":"我想我們大概兩個月的時間我們跟這個工會商量那事實上現在就是禁止的啦但是我們未來委員我們再檢討是不是有更嚴格的管理方法那另外現在所謂水面型的事實上我們都除了禁止以外我們是有水質監測的"},{"start":629.127,"end":650.5,"text":"好那這個部分的我要求就是要盡快定出來接下來你們其他人請回問一下那個環境部部長就是今天還有一個重要的議題就是非法清到這個廢棄物的部分再加一線呢他也出現了有13起這樣的一個情況那加一線環保局長說電子圍理的效果有限"},{"start":651.28,"end":675.191,"text":"業者如果用了一個大的黑布黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來之後就是現行的電子圍理並沒有辦法去監測知道他上面裝載的到底是什麼那在這樣的一個情況底下我們現在還管署我們編那麼多的金額我們一直在推動智慧圍理而且呢之前你們有一個會議呢還說要115年到118年要花23億"},{"start":680.213,"end":692.726,"text":"來用這樣的一個遠端智慧來解決這樣的一個問題那這個基層的嘉義縣環保局長他就說這樣子電子圍籬效果有限那你未來還要再花大錢你要怎麼去改善"},{"start":694.044,"end":720.206,"text":"報告委員 這個其實原來的電子圍籬就車牌有e-tag現在其實未來我們會全方面的例如說我們會把所有的監視器包括所有警政系統等等的把它匯集在一起這個是從115年開始我們爭取到預算來做這個事情我相信因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的這個漏洞還蠻多的所以才會造成說我們看到的那你到什麼時候才會開始改在115年"},{"start":721.827,"end":744.297,"text":"對115年開始我們有這個計畫那這個其實齁處理這個廢棄物不是只有一個一件事情這個是抓小偷我們要從這個整個量能去化然後整個抓小偷我知道我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善第二個是你們現在光地方通報到你的平台還有你們在正式公告的你們現在其實是有時差的你知道嗎"},{"start":745.557,"end":762.069,"text":"這個有一個月的時差你們自己的報告裡面都說就是那些車牌號碼就是你們上傳到環關署的平台然後你們每一個月呢就是再去公告有異常的就是慢慢了一拍那這個部分你要怎麼解決"},{"start":764.888,"end":783.799,"text":"那如果我們有發現立即的危險或是現行犯的話我們就會立即採取檢警環的這個稽查管制的措施那我們例行性的發現有污染的時候我們也會轉給我們的這個相關管理人員去做上游的稽查所以我們對於有馬上發生危害的時候我們會立即採取例行的措施對啊那這個報告裡面講的這個時間差你要怎麼解決"},{"start":788.174,"end":809.842,"text":"這就是我們每次勾擊發現的時候有些異常我們就會請他看有些是系統異常有些是電子設備的異常但我們就去查但是如果實際有違法的時候我們一定會馬上處理好我希望這一個現在大家對於就是有人這樣非法清道廢棄物從高雄開始現在看到嘉義縣其實也有很多縣市應該都有"},{"start":810.982,"end":828.695,"text":"這一個我希望這個部長你們環境部要負起這一個集合的責任因為它污染的就是我們的環境那未來你們還要編這麼多的預算現行的所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決好不好是是好好謝謝好謝謝好謝謝王玉明委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時16分）謝謝主席，是不是有請環境部部長、經濟部次長及農業部次長？"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我請教你，現在光電的議題有多面向的議題，包括應該要環評的議題、之前丹娜絲風災之後光電板整個清運管理的問題，還有最近大家一直在爭論光電板到底要不要使用清潔劑清潔的問題。部長，我先請教你，就你掌握的、環境部知道的，到底光電板需不需要使用清潔劑？"],["彭部長啓明：據我所知道的是不需要，它用清水沖洗就可以。"],["王委員育敏：那業界有沒有人在用清潔劑清洗？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我不清楚，因為我所知道的是沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你知道的是沒有？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道的是沒有。"],["王委員育敏：好，我們再就教經濟部次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：次長，經濟部有發文，說清洗光電板真的不需要用清潔劑；但是網路上面現在有一個截圖，看起來這也是一個業界在清洗的業者，他曾經講過：今天測試新的清洗藥劑並不是業界俗稱的粉紅豹，效果比粉紅豹好很多，但需要更多的測試才能確定，噴藥桿還有進步的空間。請問次長，你有沒有掌握有這一篇發文？"],["賴次長建信：報告委員，這個我第一次看到，跟委員說明，網路上的訊息非常多，但是網路上也有一些訊息是假的，我們必須要去做釐清。"],["王委員育敏：好，次長，你今天第一次看到，我要求經濟部去查明，因為你們發文說不需要清潔劑，我今天就提供這一則……"],["賴次長建信：現在業界裡面沒有用這個，我們的契約……我們的要求裡面也要求不需要……"],["王委員育敏：對，你們去查明……"],["賴次長建信：好。"],["王委員育敏：如果這個是假消息，那就去開罰他，好不好？不可以任意發這樣的文。"],["賴次長建信：我們非常反對錯假的訊息來影響社會。"],["王委員育敏：好，我就正式提供這一則，你好好去確認清楚，因為看起來這位人士po的相關文章都是跟清洗有關，他曾經po出這個文，已經被截圖出來了，就這個部分，我希望經濟部好好去查。","接下來我們看一下，如果光電板完全不需要清洗劑來清洗，請問，市面上現在在網路上面可以找到標榜太陽能板的洗劑可不可以販售？如果太陽能板是不需要清洗劑的，可不可以販售標榜是太陽能板的洗劑？這些洗劑到底是要賣給誰？如果今天經濟部認為太陽能板不可以用清洗劑來清洗的話，為什麼市面上會有這樣的產品？"],["賴次長建信：這個我們來了解，所有的產品到我們臺灣的社會上，必須要符合相關產品的規範。就剛剛委員所說的，我再次跟委員強調，水面型的太陽能板事實上是鋪在水面上，它的清洗是直接汲取當地的水，用清水來清洗。"],["王委員育敏：對，你講的是水面型的，對不對？那我問你陸上型的呢？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，不管是水面型或是陸上型，太陽能板上可能會有灰塵，也許會有一些大自然上的髒污物，這個部分事實上只用清水來做清洗就可以達到它的效果了。"],["王委員育敏：次長，我問你，如果有業者用了清洗劑去清洗太陽能光電板，這有沒有違法？可不可以？"],["賴次長建信：目前所發的相關許可書裡面，我們是禁止他使用的，我們會加強查核。"],["王委員育敏：水面型跟陸上型都完全禁止？"],["賴次長建信：水面型的部分我們有特別的規範。"],["王委員育敏：那陸上型的有沒有禁止？"],["賴次長建信：陸上型的部分，讓我確實再了解一下後再跟委員說明。"],["王委員育敏：你現在還不知道？光電板我們已經運作多久了！現在陸上型光電板清洗時到底可不可以使用清潔劑，次長，你不知道？"],["賴次長建信：基本上，我們希望他設置的地方用的清洗方式不要影響……"],["王委員育敏：署長要回答，好，請教署長，經濟部或者是能源署現在有沒有禁止陸上型光電板用清潔劑來清洗？"],["李署長君禮：他在做大規模清潔的時候，我們是絕對禁止的，但如果只是少數的地方，比如說那個地方有鳥屎，我們是允許他用少數的清潔劑去把它做清除，但這並不表示太陽能板是可以用清潔劑來清洗的，我們禁止他大規模來做清洗。"],["王委員育敏：你們在相關簽訂的契約當中有明文禁止嗎？"],["李署長君禮：這是我們日常管理裡面要做的，並不在契約裡面。"],["王委員育敏：如果他有違法，那有罰則嗎？"],["李署長君禮：違反的話，正常程序下我們會先請他改善，如果沒有改善的話，我們最重可以停止他購電。"],["王委員育敏：其實現在到底光電板可不可以用清潔劑清洗這件事情，你們是沒有一個明確規範的。"],["李署長君禮：原則是禁止的，但如果他有特殊的原因……"],["王委員育敏：那你知道市面上這些東西到底是賣到哪裡去？他還標榜是太陽能板洗劑。"],["李署長君禮：我們來了解那個產品到底是賣到哪裡去。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們好好的了解。","接下來我要問農業部，剛剛經濟部說原則上是禁止用清潔劑來清洗太陽能光電板，但是之前媒體實地訪查的時候，南部的農民就很擔心，因為他們看到有人在洗光電板，那個污水就直接流下來，也沒有做任何的隔離措施，然後那就可能會污染到他的農地。這個部分農業部有掌握嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：跟委員報告，事實上，水面型也好，或者是漁電共生型的案場也好，我們在合約上面都是規定只能夠用清水來清洗，至於委員所說的，在其他案場有這個現況，我們目前並沒有收到相關的訊息，對此，我們會來了解，基本上，一般的清洗只需要用清水清洗就可以了，應該不需要再用額外的洗劑來做加強。"],["王委員育敏：你們掌握到的實況是這樣子嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：目前我並沒有聽到剛才委員所說的這個部分。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分我真的認為我們主管機關要好好了解實際運作狀況，如果你們都說不需要也不可能，但市面上又有人去標榜是太陽能板的洗劑，那請問他是賣到哪裡去？你們有沒有掌握那個流量？這件事情是完全禁止？還是你允許有一部分是可以使用的？還是水面型的完全禁止，陸地型的部分開放使用？我覺得你們現在並沒有一個很明確的規範，當你們這麼不明確的時候，你認為這些光電板業者應該要遵循的是哪一套？他們也不清楚啊！","我再問一下環境部部長，你在回答媒體的時候說，農業部要制定光電板清洗管制標準，上午的時候你有這樣講。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：農業部也要訂嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我記得是我們在協商這個問題的時候，因為陳部長有說，在清洗的過程當中，他會把這個變成檢查的項目之一。"],["王委員育敏：是，如果按照剛剛講的，未來你要訂定的規範中，到底是全面性都不准用清潔劑，還是你是會開放清潔劑的使用？你們現在的方向到底是什麼？"],["李署長君禮：水面型的絕對不准用清潔劑。"],["王委員育敏：陸地型的呢？"],["李署長君禮：陸地型的，通常像漁電共生這種的也不會。但是剛才有講，如果是有一些特殊的原因，比如說有鳥屎還是什麼東西卡在上面，特別需要的話才會讓他用，此時這樣子做是可以被同意的，但是原則上是禁止的。"],["王委員育敏：所以有鳥糞的時候就可以使用？"],["李署長君禮：或是有其他的污染，在一定的條件下，他就確實沒有辦法清。另外就他設置的地點，比如說它是屋頂型的，在這一方面我們是覺得如果確實有什麼污染，不用洗劑沒有辦法清除的話，那我們是可以接受的；其他所謂水面型的，或是漁電共生的，或是在一般土地上的，我們都是禁止的。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分，我覺得現在主管機關白紙黑字、明確化的部分真的是不夠明確，所以我希望你們可以儘快制定出一個光電板清洗管制作業標準，從經濟部到農業部、到環境部，你們訂出來的標準是一致的，不要能源署說可以，但問農業部後卻說不可以；問環境部後又說可以，不能這樣子，不能三個不同的部會大家管理的原則跟方法是不一樣的，我要求這個部分應該要制定，所以誰要來制定？是農業部還是經濟部，還是環境部？"],["李署長君禮：抱歉，您講的是？"],["王委員育敏：光電板清洗管制標準。"],["李署長君禮：這個可以由我們來訂，沒有問題。"],["王委員育敏：經濟部要來訂嘛！"],["李署長君禮：是。"],["王委員育敏：大概多久可以訂出來？"],["李署長君禮：大概要兩個月的時間，我們會跟相關公會商量，事實上現在就是禁止的，但是未來我們會再檢討是不是要有更嚴格的管理方法。另外，現在所謂水面型的，事實上，除了禁止以外，我們是有進行水質監測的。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個部分我要求儘快訂出來。你們其他人請回，我問一下環境部部長，今天還有一個重要的議題，就是非法傾倒廢棄物的部分，在嘉義縣也出現13起這樣的情況，嘉義縣環保局長說，電子圍籬的效果有限，業者如果用一個大的黑布、黑網把這整個廢棄物蓋起來，則現行的電子圍籬並沒有辦法去做監測，去知道它上面裝載的到底是什麼，在這樣的情況底下，現在環管署編那麼多的金額，且我們一直在推動智慧圍籬，之前你們有一個會議還說要從115年到118年，花23億做這樣一個遠端智慧來解決這樣一個問題。基層的嘉義縣環保局長說，這樣的電子圍籬效果有限，可是你未來卻還要再花大錢，請問你到底要怎麼去做改善？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實原來的電子圍籬就像車牌有eTag，未來我們會全方面的，例如我們會把所有的監視器，包含所有警政系統等等的，把它匯整在一起，等於是從115年開始，我們爭取到這個預算來做這個事情，因為過去其實電子圍籬的確是有限的，漏洞還滿多的，所以才會造成我們看到的一些問題。"],["王委員育敏：那你到什麼時候才會開始改善？115年？"],["彭部長啓明：115年開始我們有這個計畫，其實處理廢棄物不是只有一件事情，這個是所謂的抓小偷，我們要從整個量能去化，然後整個抓小偷，甚至是法律的修正。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我希望你們這個部分可以好好的改善；第二個，現在光地方通報到你們的平臺，還有你們正式公告的，其實是有時差的，你知道嗎？這部分有一個月的時差，你們自己的報告裡面都說，那些車牌號碼你們上傳到環管署的平臺，然後你們每一個月再去公告有異常的，也就是慢了一拍，這個部分你要怎麼解決？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：報告委員，如果我們有發生立即的危險或是現行犯的話，我們就會立即採取檢警環的稽查管制措施；當我們例行性稽查發現有污染的時候，也會轉給我們相關管理單位去做上游的稽查，所以對於馬上會發生危害的，我們會採取立即性的措施。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！這個報告裡面講的時間差問題，你要怎麼解決？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：就是我們每次勾稽的時候，若發現有些異常，我就會請他們去看，有些是系統異常，有些是電子設備的異常，但我們就會去查，但是如果實際有違法的時候，我們一定會馬上處理。"],["王委員育敏：好，現在大家對於有人非法傾倒廢棄物一事，從高雄開始，現在看到嘉義縣其實也有，很多縣市應該也都有，針對這個部分，我希望部長、環境部要負起稽核的責任，因為他污染的就是我們的環境，未來你們還要編這麼多的預算，現行所有的問題你們都應該要好好的處理跟解決，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員發言。"],["主席（王委員育敏代）：接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 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11:30:14","影片長度":"00:11:02","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-20","start_time":"2025-10-20T11:19:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T11:30:14+08:00","duration":662,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.71409375,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.050968750000001,"end":7.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.08471875,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.50659375,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.54034375,"end":8.215343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.99159375,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.94909375,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.46784375,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.855968750000002,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.25659375,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.273468750000003,"end":35.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.27846875,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.56909375,"end":78.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.97221875000001,"end":86.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.80221875000001,"end":87.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.32534375,"end":91.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.42596875000001,"end":124.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.83846875,"end":156.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.49596875,"end":164.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.29596875000001,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.80534375000002,"end":176.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.26909375000002,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.16284375,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.54409375,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.30159375000002,"end":243.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.99284375000002,"end":258.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.91034375000004,"end":260.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.76659375,"end":264.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.23846875000004,"end":267.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.87971875,"end":276.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.56159375000004,"end":370.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.40909375,"end":280.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.94471875,"end":282.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.23034375000003,"end":376.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.76534375,"end":377.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.35596875000005,"end":377.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.18284375,"end":378.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.19971875000005,"end":379.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.66784375000003,"end":391.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.27784375000005,"end":395.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.14659375,"end":398.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.70721875000004,"end":400.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.67721875,"end":408.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.30471875,"end":408.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.26659375,"end":417.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.84346875,"end":427.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.60534375000003,"end":436.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.04721875,"end":450.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.88034375,"end":459.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.33034375000005,"end":468.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.98721875,"end":470.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.35409375,"end":473.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.35784375000003,"end":473.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.47159375,"end":548.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.1772187500001,"end":575.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.58659375,"end":588.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.4453437500001,"end":588.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.4072187500001,"end":591.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03"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謝謝主席有請教育部朱長赤好 請朱企長程序部懷政赤"},{"start":11.15,"end":35.132,"text":"還有人事總署張副人事長我們城上剛剛有委員特別關注老師的言論是否中立那我想剛剛他所提到的案例是媒體採訪甚至是網路應用那我們也很關心剛剛我們的朱常志有提到老師的言論應該要中立 是嗎"},{"start":36.463,"end":49.115,"text":"教育基本法我們教育本來應該就本中立的立場剛剛委員所提到如果對於這個言論有所偏頗應該對於整個退伏的機制上應該給予一些制度上入法給予懲罰"},{"start":50.441,"end":77.006,"text":"那我想問一下有老師對於在野黨的立委批評甚至是直接在課堂上給予這個影片教學帶入偏頗甚至是對於他自己的個人批評去攻擊在野黨的主席黃國昌甚至是在野黨的立委你覺得在教學的課堂當中帶入這樣子的一個影片甚至是這樣的言語他中立嗎請問"},{"start":79.068,"end":98.94,"text":"各位報告我想學校的環境還是要回到學術專業的考量那教育亦負如此所以有關個案的部分如果有我們都會請學校去了解實際狀況是如何我想這個時候就說是個案那我要講的是偏頗的言論應該要有統一的標準不要兩套標準"},{"start":99.58,"end":123.887,"text":"那对于自己的政党有利益的话我想就给予宽限我想这是不对的应该对于教育上我们都是要一视同仁的中立给予孩子更多元的客观的角度让孩子能够多元学习而不是给予偏颇的一个概念那我想我们都认同年金改革的出发点是为了让制度更公平财务更永续但是改革不能够只有财务账"},{"start":125.087,"end":149.91,"text":"還要顧及人性帳還要教育現場的運作帳我想教育部過去的說明107年的修法目的在於矯正企資的年齡偏低替代率過高甚至基金的準備不足等問題其能兼顧基金穩健跟退休的合理性然而實際情況跟初中完全背道而馳"},{"start":150.891,"end":160.605,"text":"教師延後退休整體年齡的結構快速老化心血進不來教育的現場新陳代謝逐漸停滯您認為這個新陳代謝停滯啊對於整個教育現場有幫助嗎"},{"start":167.349,"end":196.575,"text":"根文报告其实教育永远是有进有出应该就是像活水一样所以这几年我们也包括在最近我们都在鼓励地方政府先要释放出来政治老师的职缺因为少子化影响当然啦我们是鼓励但是教学现场就是停滞嘛教育部统计整个资料的显示40岁以下的国小教师至100学年度从48000多人降至113学年度"},{"start":197.415,"end":216.78,"text":"是26000多人短短11年间减少超过44%反之50岁以上的教师从9455人增加到35487人征服是近三倍也就是说100学年度"},{"start":217.78,"end":237.959,"text":"約有一半的教師在40歲以下但到了113學年度僅剩餘27%50歲以上的教師比例則從10%上升到35而且最近我們也看到許多的一些報導3303所公立的國中小"},{"start":239.42,"end":257.995,"text":"人缺少了1429位的代理教師我想現在不是用少子化來說我們對於現在的整個制度都非常關注我也要問請問一下教育部我們現在的代理教師的終點費什麼時候要給予應該給予的待遇"},{"start":258.955,"end":275.772,"text":"根文報告針對教室的終點會不會過去確實調整我知道有調整但是實際就是不夠事實上跟不上所以目前我們已經有在會朝希望能夠拉高那也在考量到不同校內職級的部分做一些規劃"},{"start":276.613,"end":296.224,"text":"我希望能够有更具体的刚刚您对于校事会议有一个很具体的回应对不对我们都希望看到这个具体的改善但是对于终点费对于教师 代理教师还有这些老师给予的应该的特殊的加给这些都是我们一直在长期争取的我想另外提到一个问题"},{"start":296.604,"end":325.803,"text":"那就是退休金的本質是政府作為雇主依契約與法律給予公教人員工作報酬是勞動所得的一部分而非福利或特權當公教人員依法完成了服務年限後退休給付應受到合理的保障而不是成為政治操作或財務調整的犧牲品我們主張退休停止金是停止整個逐年的遞減是作為主要的"},{"start":326.543,"end":348.308,"text":"訴求並非要回到107年以前的舊制而是希望幫忙整個基層的公教人員減少在職與退休公教人員的實質損失恢復制度的合理性跟信任感反映出基層的教育人員對於政府的誠信公平原則的最低期待"},{"start":349.068,"end":377.208,"text":"我想另一方面整個退伏基金管理的績效問題是不容忽視的一個課題我們因為全序部現有的資料退伏基金過去20年年化的報酬率僅約2.76%明顯低於多數基金的平均水準我們要請教三個問題第一退伏基金20年的這個報酬率只有2.76這樣的績效全序部"},{"start":378.224,"end":378.244,"text":"認為滿意嗎"},{"start":379.687,"end":387.073,"text":"我想現在您所提供的數據跟我的數據有一定的差距啦但是我看到的是20年的報酬率我們要整個攤提嘛那現在基金報酬率這麼低有沒有檢討過管理問題你覺得很高所以不需要再做任何的檢討 是嗎"},{"start":409.548,"end":427.235,"text":"這位委員報告這個2點多我們沒有這個數字因為我們的年平均就是從成立以來也超過5%以上好啊會後我拿我的數據我們再來互相的探討但是我想問你現在所提供的數據你認為已經達到了一個水準還不需要再精進嗎"},{"start":428.906,"end":449.658,"text":"當然各種經濟的方式都還是要持續這個當然一定是 永遠收益率是沒有一個天花板的我想所有的公教人員都在反映現在的所謂的基金到底是不是所謂的多繳少領大家心中都有一把尺那教育部你認為呢"},{"start":451.03,"end":476.786,"text":"虽然退府基金非教育部所掌管但你也是等于这些老师的大家长之一你认为怎么样各位报告刚刚其实怀生长真没有提到这近几年的一个基金的净值事实上是增加了快5000亿所以在这个部分我们当然是期待可以更好我想教育是国家的一个根本"},{"start":477.606,"end":497.961,"text":"年金改革只看到數字忽略人心跟教育現場的活力就失去了改革的一個初衷那我呼籲政府在檢討制度的時候應該要回到永續公平的一個原點正是教育現場真實的變化兼顧人性專業到信任整個制度的合理"},{"start":498.741,"end":516.284,"text":"刚刚你们所提到的一个数据我非常乐于的跟你们在做后续的探讨也希望全球教育部我们相关的数据以及真实教育界的一个反应我也会持续的一个追踪跟做一个探讨然后也把相关的一些澄清来转交给你们"},{"start":516.764,"end":541.272,"text":"另外我想請問一下親韓生繳不出一萬八罪樓的一個相關事件今天教育部也在現場想請問一下台中一名大二學生因為家中親韓要辦休學卻被學校收取一萬八的學雜費而因為休學受阻而選擇親生的一個事情我想台灣高等教育的一個場域仍由親韓學生"},{"start":542.612,"end":567.966,"text":"因经济困境面临休学仍需缴交学杂费的结构性障碍社会的个案再次显现高教在弱势生的一个辅导跨部门的资讯整合跟紧急协助的一个机制上漏洞我想学校的学务处跟教务处横向沟通的一个失灵反映校内系统为整合学生的经济家庭特殊的一个状况"},{"start":568.906,"end":593.172,"text":"比如當學生有休學的意願呢學校有沒有了解為什麼要休學然後休學的一個狀況學生的狀況輔導的機制以及任何一個環節能夠及時的留意諮詢輔導轉介經濟救助就可以避免這一起案件的發生那教育部目前對於此類的事件有什麼樣的一個具體作為"},{"start":594.003,"end":622.086,"text":"根文報告這件事情真的是很令人遺憾其實只要學校有多問一句我想這個問題都可以解決所以以目前我們對於清函學生來講除了學雜費減免第二層還有總統的我們拉近學雜費方案甚至年就學貸款這個部分是有三層這樣的一個保障在那這個案子比較可惜的就是說在辦休退學的時候就像我講的在橫向連結是有瑕疵的"},{"start":622.426,"end":644.009,"text":"那這個部分下一步我們已經在禮拜五也再一次通行各個大學校院在一個身份的勾肌弱勢學生一旦有這個狀況怎麼來處理這個勾肌的處理以及如果有涉及到退費的時候學生有困難學校要啟動急濫救助的方式是可以免收或是減收我想這個部分我們都已經有要求大學要弱勢"},{"start":644.77,"end":659.529,"text":"我希望真正的落實狀況要有追蹤啦不要只是作為一個文字的回應我們希望這樣的事件是發生以後呢要有想辦法具體的一個改革作為希望教育部應該要追蹤是 以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時19分）謝謝主席。有請教育部朱常次、銓敘部懷政次及人事總處代表。"],["主席：請朱次長、懷次長及張副人事長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["羅委員廷瑋：承上剛剛有委員特別關注老師的言論是否中立，我想剛剛他所提到的案例是媒體採訪，甚至是網路應用，其實我們也很關心，剛剛朱常次有提到老師的言論應該要中立，是嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：對，教育基本法規定教育本來就應該本於中立的立場。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛委員提到如果言論有所偏頗，應該在整個退撫機制上制度入法給予懲罰。我想問一下，有老師批評在野黨立委，甚至直接在課堂上給予影片，教學帶入偏頗言論，甚至以他個人的批評去攻擊在野黨主席黃國昌或是在野黨立委，你覺得在教學的課堂當中，帶入這樣子的影片或是這樣的言語，請問他中立嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，我想學校的環境還是要回到學術專業的考量，教育亦復如此，所以有關個案的部分，如果有這樣的情形，我們都會請學校去了解實際狀況是如何。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個時候就說是個案，我要講的是偏頗的言論應該要有統一的標準，不要兩套標準，對於自己的政黨有利益的話就給予寬限，我想這是不對的。對於教育，我們應該都要一視同仁的中立，給予孩子更多元、更客觀的角度，讓孩子能夠多元學習，而不是給予偏頗的概念。","我們都認同年金改革的出發點是為了讓制度更公平、財務更永續，但是改革不能夠只有財務仗，還要顧及人性仗以及教育現場的運作仗。依照教育部過去的說明，107年修法的目的在於矯正起支的年齡偏低、替代率過高，甚至基金準備不足等問題，其能兼顧基金穩健和退休的合理性，然而實際情況卻與初衷完全背道而馳，教師延後退休，整體年齡結構快速老化，新血進不來，教育現場新陳代謝逐漸停滯，您認為新陳代謝停滯對於整個教育現場有幫助嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，其實教育永遠是有進有出，應該像活水一樣，所以這幾年包括最近我們都在鼓勵地方政府要釋放出正式老師的職缺，因為少子化的影響有些縣市會是空的，所以我們要來引導……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我們是鼓勵，但是教學現場就是停滯。根據教育部統計資料顯示，40歲以下的國小教師從100學年度的四萬八千多人降至113學年度的兩萬六千多人，短短十一年間減少超過44%；反之，50歲以上的教師從9,455人增加到3萬5,487人，增幅將近三倍。也就是說，100學年度約有一半的教師在40歲以下，但到了113學年度僅剩27%，50歲以上的教師比例則從10%上升到35%。而且最近我們也看到許多報導，3,303所公立國中小仍缺少1,429位代理教師，我想現在不是用少子化來說，我們對於現在的整個制度都非常關注，請問一下教育部，現在代理教師的鐘點費什麼時候要給予應該給予的待遇？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，針對教師的鐘點費，過去確實調整……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道有調整，但是實際就是不夠嘛！"],["朱次長俊彰：事實上跟不上，所以目前我們希望能夠拉高，也考量要針對校內不同職級的部分做一些規劃。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望能夠有更具體的答案，剛剛您對於校事會議有很具體的回應，我們都希望看到這個具體的改善，但是對於鐘點費的部分，對於教師、代理教師應該給予的特殊加給，這些都是我們一直在長期爭取的。我想另外提到一個問題，退休金的本質是政府作為雇主依契約與法律給予公教人員工作報酬，是勞動所得的一部分，而非福利或特權。當公教人員依法完成服務年限後，退休給付應受到合理的保障，而不是成為政治操作或財務調整的犧牲品，我們主張退休停止金是停止逐年的遞減，以此作為主要的訴求，並非要回到107年以前的舊制，而是希望幫忙基層公教人員，減少在職與退休公教人員的實質損失，恢復制度的合理性與信任感，反映基層教育人員對於政府誠信與公平原則的最低期待。我想另一方面，整個退撫基金管理的績效問題是不容忽視的一個課題，以銓敘部現有的資料來看，退撫基金過去20年年化的報酬率僅約2.76%，明顯低於多數基金的平均水準。我們要請教三個問題，第一，退撫基金20年的報酬率只有2.76%，這樣的績效銓敘部滿意嗎？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告一下，退撫基金的平均收益率，3年是8.88%，5年是9.36%，10年是6.94%，以國內各基金來講……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想現在您所提供的數據跟我的數據有一定的差距。"],["懷次長敍：這個是有公布在網站上面，我都跟您報告過了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我看到的是20年的報酬率，我們要整個攤提，現在基金報酬率這麼低，有沒有檢討過管理問題？你覺得很高，所以不需要再做任何的檢討，是嗎？"],["懷次長敍：不是這個意思。"],["呂組長明珠：跟委員報告，我們沒有這個二點多的數字，因為我們的年平均從成立以來都是5%以上。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，會後我拿我的數據，我們再來互相的探討。但是我想問，你現在所提供的數據，你認為已經達到了一個水準，不需要再精進嗎？"],["懷次長敍：各種精進的方式都還是要持續，這個當然是一定要的，收益率是永遠沒有天花板的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想所有的公教人員都在反映，現在所謂的基金到底是不是多繳少領，大家心中都有一把尺。教育部認為呢？雖然退撫基金非教育部所掌管，但你等於也是這些老師的大家長之一，你認為怎麼樣？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，剛剛其實懷次長有提到近幾年基金的淨值事實上是增加了快5,000億，所以在這個部分我們當然是期待可以更好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想教育是國家的一個根本，年金改革只看到數字，忽略人心跟教育現場的活力，就失去了改革的初衷，我呼籲政府在檢討制度的時候應該要回到永續、公平的原點，正視教育現場真實的變化，兼顧人性、專業與整個制度的合理。對於剛剛你們所提到的數據，我非常樂於跟你們再做後續的探討，銓敘部、教育部相關的數據以及教育界真實的反映，我也會持續追蹤、探討，也會把相關的一些陳情轉交給你們。","另外，我想請問一下清寒生繳不出1萬8,000元墜樓的事件，今天教育部也在現場。請問一下，臺中一名大二學生因為家中清寒要辦休學，卻被學校收取1萬8,000元的學雜費，因為休學受阻而選擇輕生。臺灣高等教育的場域仍有清寒學生因經濟困境面臨休學需繳交學雜費的結構性障礙，社會的個案再次顯現高教在弱勢生的輔導、跨部門資訊整合跟緊急協助的機制上存在漏洞。我想學校的學務處跟教務處橫向溝通失靈，反映校內系統未整合學生的經濟、家庭特殊狀況。比如當學生有休學的意願，學校有沒有了解為什麼要休學、休學的狀況、學生的狀況、輔導的機制，以及任何一個環節，能夠及時的留意、諮詢、輔導、轉介、經濟救助，就可以避免這一起案件的發生，教育部目前對於此類的事件有什麼樣的具體作為？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，這件事情真的是很令人遺憾，其實只要學校有多問一句，我想這個問題都可以解決，所以目前對於清寒學生來講，除了學雜費減免，第二層還有種種的拉近學雜費方案，甚至連就學貸款這個部分也是，有第三層的保障在。這個案子比較可惜的就是在辦休退學的時候，就像委員講的，橫向連結是有瑕疵的，這個部分教育部已經在禮拜五再次通函各大學校院做身分勾稽，弱勢學生一旦有這個狀況怎麼來處理。除了這個勾稽的處理，如果涉及到退費學生有困難，學校要啟動急難救助的方式，是可以免收或是減收，這個部分我們都已經有要求大學要落實。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望要真正的落實追蹤，不要只是文字的回應，我們希望這樣的事件發生以後要想辦法，要有具體的改革作為。"],["朱次長俊彰：是，應該的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們也希望教育部應該要追蹤。以上。"],["朱次長俊彰：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員。","接下來請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席麻煩有請國發會主委我們再請主委"},{"start":24.122,"end":42.016,"text":"委員長主委好看了主委的CV啊我覺得您跟我之前常常合作的那個陳功平老師背景很像都是Rogers的出來然後到中央然後到中研院經濟所研究的也是Gain theory"},{"start":42.796,"end":62.421,"text":"你的publication的列表我大概看了一下我相信game theory應該你的研究有所專精謝謝委員那到公務部門來是不是能夠把你所學的專長落實到有利於國家發展跟國際名聲是我們在立法院裡面要監督的重點因為我"},{"start":65.066,"end":87.354,"text":"我問這項來的風格是有疑所疑非常直接那也請葉老師不要介意也請黃老師不要介意OK好我們接下來喔民進黨政府國發基金投資的績效跑劑量的人要分析其實我都覺得國發會應該把這些數據因為這是台灣納稅人的錢把這些數據全部release出來"},{"start":94.039,"end":108.446,"text":"那讓跑劑量的人好好去分析嘛然後看我們的政府過去告訴台灣社會給國會的數字是不是在做大內宣是不是文過是非"},{"start":109.468,"end":137.95,"text":"因為學術人要研究我有data的話啦可以做很多分析啊那我現在沒有data嘛我只能按照你們公布的數字來看嘛我們先看民進黨主政時期啊不要一年每一年報告都跟說我們今年國發基金會賺多少錢結果是從什麼從李登輝總統時代人家就投資了台積電賺錢啊拿來什麼拿來填補蔡英文任內啊投資的虧損"},{"start":139.366,"end":165.417,"text":"民進黨政府國發基金投資的績效有沒有有賺錢 有賺錢啊到2024年年底我看盡力賺錢的9家但問題是慘賠的28家我講的是蔡英文任內投資的不要再去講把馬英九的政績當自己的政績把陳水扁的政績當自己的政績甚至連李登輝都拿來當自己的政績這不好看 很難看面對這樣子的問題 國會很嚴肅"},{"start":168.382,"end":197.427,"text":"做了國發基金調查委員會的調查報告裡面如列出了2016年以後的投資案存在先設再劃把的問題罔顧外省專家提出來的反對意見質疑投資投資決策草率眾多委員不是請假就是代理還有國發基金的人違反公務員服務法旋轉門條款自己"},{"start":200.254,"end":226.92,"text":"審議說要投資這家公司等到自己下台了以後跑去這家公司當董事這能看喔這能看喔那沒關係啊國發基金調查委員會的調查報告招委是我到時候院會要處理的時候我們好好一項一項談這也不是你的鍋也不是你接主委以後發生的事情那個是前人留下來給你的但是我重視的是你處理的態度"},{"start":227.691,"end":242.991,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案我們要修改產業創新條例的修法全面改革國發基金因為我們政壇有個前輩叫潘孟安當初他在當立委的時候他認為國發基金亂七八糟"},{"start":245.083,"end":257.649,"text":"用鬆散的行政規則根本管不了讓國發基金成為紓困基金所以潘孟安當立委的時候他的主張是國發基金他要設一個特別條例來加以規範"},{"start":258.885,"end":287.255,"text":"我們折衷沒有要國發基金設特別條例我直接就改產業創新條例的修法改革國發基金強化外部監督提高專案核准審議的密度改革私人的退場機制落實旋轉門條款建立公開透明的機制這些原則主委讚不讚成基本上都我同意基本上都同意 非常好我要拜託召委你有時間幫我擺個案"},{"start":289.606,"end":294.472,"text":"這個牽涉到我們全體納稅人的權益主委的態度又這麼正面非常的好啊 好"},{"start":296.42,"end":323.932,"text":"既然你都同意我就後面有很多細節我也不要占人家的時間我一個一個就都先跳過去委員那個旋轉門這個部分的話可能就是說可能要考慮一下因為會涉及到那個是是是那個工作權這個部分沒有關係主委你也知道我們中研院出來的都就事論事我們到時候條文的時候一樣機制一樣機制我們慢慢再來討論但我現在要跟你講的是什麼"},{"start":325.441,"end":352.321,"text":"我從2018年開始監督國發基金到這一次回來立法院不管是陳美玲還是前面的主委都跟我說違反法令公司治理不佳的就應該納入事故的標的主委贊不贊成 贊成那我們接下來看 省紀部卻說我們的國發基金沒有落實執行退場機制這省紀部的報告主委看過沒有省紀部的這個到"},{"start":354.246,"end":382.301,"text":"我是沒有看過那主委你花一點時間看你閱讀的速度一定很快啦好我要特別講的是什麼這個聯合再生啊根本胡搞瞎搞因為主委是搞經濟出來的嘛賽局理論越有碰擊量這個騙不了要要民進黨政府要做大內宣騙台灣人民啊可能挾著媒體的優勢啊可以騙一死啊"},{"start":383.257,"end":407.261,"text":"但是內行的看門道不是看熱鬧數字拿出來看就知道了來我直接跟你講2017年國發基金管理會的時候評估說我們一定要投聯合再生啊太陽能國家隊啊我們每一年的營收會有多少錢啊全部都把它列出來結果列出來了以後2018年預定營收510億結果只有131億"},{"start":411.798,"end":438.024,"text":"2022年達到980億我的老天啊 結果只有188億這個評估是徹底失靈了我不用講什麼理由我光攤出數字 納稅人看到背景都亮了我們的國發基金投資評估審議委員會啊可以預測到 施准到這種程度啊我是不曉得他們用什麼model預測啦"},{"start":439.52,"end":459.17,"text":"我不曉得他們用什麼model預測 但預測出來的結果失準到這種程度真的是讓人觸目驚心但更嚴重的是什麼 更嚴重的是當初要投的時候 做虛偽不實的投資評估報告投了以後呢 2019年開始累計虧損"},{"start":463.973,"end":491.564,"text":"又虧了上百億投以前虧上百億連民進黨的立委都在立法院問說我們國發基金是變成紓困基金然後那時候國發基金說不會太陽能國家隊太陽能國家隊推上去獲利可期後事看好結果呢投了又虧了什麼 又虧了上百億直接反映在哪裡 我再帶主委看這個是聯合再生的月K線"},{"start":493.444,"end":512.465,"text":"主委有沒有看到啊 我們要投資的時候2018 2019的時候 股價跌到谷底你有沒有看到對嘛 就跌到谷底嘛哇 國發基金進場要投資啊股價一路攀升啊 一路往上主委有沒有看到"},{"start":513.869,"end":542.492,"text":"現在不僅是什麼啊政府被當盤子啊還拖著一堆股市的小白啊在國發基金的背書下面啊一起當盤子現在每股跌到有沒有六塊你看最右邊的就好了 這個是我剛來執行以前我上去網站下面 download現在跌到股價有剩六塊嗎在附近了虧到脫褲子啊"},{"start":543.87,"end":564.797,"text":"虧得脫褲子我就奇怪了因為這個弊案我一開始追我一直追到現在 國發會的主委跟我說要啟動退場機制結果啟動退場機制是什麼是在用喊的喔開始說要啟動退場機制結果現在試了幾股主委你知道嗎 試了22萬股總共有9900多萬股 試了22萬股"},{"start":571.415,"end":598.837,"text":"難怪審計部的報告說根本沒有落實退場機制啊繼續虧啊 繼續了啊那我們管國發基金的人是什麼心態那納稅的錢又不是我的錢如果是在外面的民間企業基金管理人管理股票管理成這個樣子啊早就不曉得被炒魷魚炒十次了結果我們的國發基金不要沒關係為什麼不要沒關係 代理人效應嘛"},{"start":600.09,"end":627.746,"text":"虧的又不是我的錢虧的是中華民國國民的錢有什麼關係我們大家高官權貴有的吃有的喝有的撈有的現場卸任還要聯合再生幫他幾千萬在屏東那邊養退休的官員大家都有的撈嘛幹嘛要管這種亂象 主委有沒有決心改革"},{"start":628.564,"end":653.442,"text":"我們那個事故退場這個部分其實我們又在持續在修正那我們用新的辦法來沒有關係啊 主委你新上任主委我對新上任的主委一向都很溫暖我一定給你時間跟空間但時間到的時候我們要檢驗成效希望你跟其他前面幾個主委不一樣真的有破例改革 可以嗎可以好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國發會主委。"],["主席：我們再請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。看了主委的CV，我覺得您跟我之前常常合作的陳恭平老師背景很像，都是Rochester出來，然後到中央，然後到中研院經濟所，研究的也是Game Theory，你的publication列表我也大概看了一下，我相信你對Game 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谢谢主席 请我们杨次长以及海军参谋长请杨次长 海军参谋长王委员好好 次长好 参谋长好我们今天主要是海昆号的一个专案报告我想请问 再次确定一下11月交件会不会延后 会不会跳票"},{"start":32.728,"end":56.65,"text":"報告這個跟委員報告目前海昆號遇到的這個問題是在技術上我們沒有問題但是我們在檢測上我又有時間關係11月能夠如期交界嗎我們朝這個方向去努力能不能因為現在時間已經差一個多月而已因為你們好幾次都是說11月是目標那11月會不會跳票"},{"start":58.668,"end":60.909,"text":"委員好 已經參謀長報告那的確我們當初在測試的整個規劃上面上是有點樂觀那現在是面臨比較大的挑戰好 現在看起來就是沒有辦法如期交件好 所以次長啊 還有那個參謀長"},{"start":74.758,"end":89.748,"text":"我們其實等待海昆號已經等待非常久了那相關的海側的時間跳票現在交件的時間也跳票但是與此同時我們也看到日本最近下海的蒼金號"},{"start":91.989,"end":95.912,"text":"好 下海然後它的相關的造價呢也有媒體這樣披露所以讓我們很多民眾非常崩潰也就是我們造價超過500億的我們的海昆號左等右等錢也是你們在花的"},{"start":111.702,"end":125.092,"text":"話也是你們在講的說什麼時候一定會如期的進行海策如期的交建但是現在呢看起來都是自欺欺人我不曉得要延後到什麼時候所以我想請問一下就是讓民眾非常崩潰的事情就是為什麼同樣的日本一條一條的潛艦在下水而它的造價比我們低那麼多"},{"start":139.269,"end":142.953,"text":"如果按照這樣的說 看我們的造價相差這麼多的一個狀況之下請問一下 未來我們的國建國造可不可以把轉為我們跟日本來買 讓日本賣給我們我這樣算一下 我們未來有7條的前件你們編了2800多億"},{"start":161.972,"end":190.862,"text":"那如果我們跟日本買的話立刻可以減少六成以上至少我們納稅人的錢可以少很多所以想請問一下我們現在計畫要繼續花這麼多的錢嗎他們已經是造到大驚奇的第六騷然後他的價格已經可以降低到不到145億那為什麼我們還是要維持這麼高的一個價格可不可以跟日本去買"},{"start":192.369,"end":208.911,"text":"我們可以跟美國買相關的這些軍品那我們花的錢這麼多嘛然後什麼時候能夠正式成行我們也不知道遙遙無期啊錢也要花但是呢又沒有辦法看到成果"},{"start":210.336,"end":231.566,"text":"可不可以回答是委員好跟委員報告海昆圈的建造其實是按節點那目前我們的測試的確是有點有了一個落後的delay的這個情形那我們原本應該是在四月份就要海測但是我們延到六月所以這中間的確有兩個月的差遲"},{"start":232.426,"end":237.868,"text":"那這兩個月差池就會反映在我們現在的測試的這個節點上那這個也必須要坦誠的 懷切的來面對這一個財務長我請問一下黃曙光他原來是我們國建國造的召集人他就請辭了反正丟下這樣的爛攤子請辭了那請問一下他現在召集人的工作是您在做嗎"},{"start":257.848,"end":274.02,"text":"這個抱怨 那個黃刺蝟請辭之後 那目前我想這個我們也我們還有召集人嗎 不用召集了我們海軍司令部會做專案管理 然後由國防部層層的督管 我們共同來執行所以由海軍司令部由您來負起這個相關的工作嗎我有講的就是為什麼我們這個國艦國造海昆號這扯啊"},{"start":279.924,"end":287.506,"text":"我們說第一個好剛才講海澈delay現在呢交件也delay然後看到人家日本的那個人家的錢錢這麼便宜然後我們在這個過程裡面好我們的召集人說以所謂的家庭藝術"},{"start":298.038,"end":320.892,"text":"落跑了然後我們台船之前的董事長最重要的台船董事長鄭文龍也離開了我知道他那個時候是非自願離開啊所以就說所有前進國造的這些key man關鍵人物一個一個離開而現在留下這些爛攤子當然我覺得你們現在責任也很重大變成你們在這邊接受我們的質詢"},{"start":322.293,"end":330.779,"text":"在這邊接受我們的質疑怎麼會這樣子呢到了這種地步變成所有該負責的人全部走掉了"},{"start":332.169,"end":353.526,"text":"該負責的人我們沒有辦法究責那到現在我們也沒有辦法看到海昆號到底什麼時候交件也都不知道然後一大堆這個什麼這個系統那個系統說沒有辦法整合過去我們也有嘛當時台船那個大午見也是一樣啊應是去交件交件之後被監察院這個審計部然後提出糾正說你們相關的IPMS系統根本沒有辦法整合"},{"start":362.284,"end":379.357,"text":"就是一大堆留下來這些問題可是這些錢不都是名指名高嗎所以我希望在整個的海昆號到底什麼時候能夠交件我覺得你們要有必要要跟國人做如實的報告"},{"start":380.919,"end":400.346,"text":"但是我也知道你們現在責任完全就責於你們也有一點那個什麼也有點就是我說該就責的人通通跑掉了這些人都不要就責當時講的天花亂墜當時做的一副瘋瘋火火現在東西交不出來人通通跑掉了錢也就花下去了還要編那麼多錢"},{"start":407.136,"end":413.394,"text":"所以我具體建議啊 具體建議如果人家日本人可以做那麼好除非你不相信日本人嘛"},{"start":414.52,"end":442.08,"text":"乾脆去跟日本去買算了我們可以節省超將近兩千億耶兩千億是錢啊我們做不出來乾脆跟人家去買好了我說這話可能大家覺得說我是喪自己威風啊好像很喪氣可是問題是我們大家期待這麼多然後花了這麼多錢卻一直沒有辦法呈現在國人的眼前然後繼續給我們編織一個很很美好的夢在那裡"},{"start":443.263,"end":462.421,"text":"所以在這邊拜託你們所有相關事情我知道我們國防外交委員會也有舉行過秘密會議然後我們現在大家還是很關心還是要有些公開的要給國人交代有什麼樣的狀況應該如實的去跟國人報告好不好"},{"start":463.989,"end":484.27,"text":"我很簡單跟委員做報告那當然日本的整個潛艦的起源很早那他有他自己的自製產能跟他國內的這個供應鏈所以他的很多的條件是的確是價錢是非常低但是受限於我們的一個環境上這個狀況下面而且日本對我們輸出的這個許可也有可能有些問題"},{"start":485.171,"end":497.248,"text":"那潛艦雖然換了目前我們按照這個現在的步調在走那我們有信心可以完成潛艦的建造那整個專案不會因為一個人離開了位置的產生影響我們會繼續努力謝謝委員知道好 拜託加油了好 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man）一個一個離開，而現在留下這些爛攤子。當然我覺得你們現在的責任也很重大，變成你們在這邊接受我們的質詢、在這邊接受我們的質疑，怎麼會這樣子呢？到了這種地步，變成所有該負責的人全部走掉了！該負責的人我們沒有辦法究責，到現在我們也沒有辦法看到海鯤號，到底什麼時候交艦也都不知道，然後一大堆什麼的這個系統、那個系統說沒有辦法整合，過去我們也有嘛！當時台船那個大武艦也是一樣，硬是去交艦，交艦之後，被監察院審計部提出糾正，說你們相關的IPMS系統根本沒有辦法整合，就是一大堆、留下這些問題，可是這些錢不都是民脂民膏嗎？","所以我希望，整個海鯤號到底什麼時候能夠交艦，我覺得你們有必要跟國人如實報告。但是我也知道，現在責任上完全究責於你們也有一點……就是我說該究責的人通通跑掉了，這些人都不要究責耶！當時講得天花亂墜，當時做得一副風風火火，現在東西交不出來，人通通跑掉了，錢也花下去了，還要編那麼多錢！所以我具體建議，如果人家日本人可以做得那麼好，除非你不相信日本人，乾脆去跟日本買算了，我們可以節省將近兩千億的錢哪！我們做不出來，乾脆跟人家去買好了，我說這個話，可能大家覺得說我是喪自己威風，好像很喪氣，可是問題是我們大家期待這麼多，花了這麼多錢，卻一直沒有辦法呈現在國人的眼前，然後繼續給我們編織一個很美好的夢在那裡。","所以在這邊拜託你們，所有相關的事情，我知道我們外交及國防委員會也舉行過秘密會議，然後現在大家還是很關心，有些公開的還是要給國人交代，有什麼樣的狀況應該如實跟國人報告，好不好？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，我很簡單跟委員報告，當然日本整個潛艦的起源很早，他有自己的自製產能跟國內的供應鏈，所以他在很多條件上的確是價錢非常低，但受限於我們環境的狀況，而且日本對我們輸出的許可也可能有些問題，而潛艦雖然換了……我們按照現在的步調在走，我們有信心可以完成潛艦的建造，整個專案不會因為一個人離開了位置而產生影響，我們會繼續努力，謝謝委員指導。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，拜託加油了。"],["楊次長基榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},{"id":"164409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bf02fa0055650108e6d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d22d0461bc9268856f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:09:10 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11:19:07","影片長度":"00:09:57","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-20","start_time":"2025-10-20T11:09:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T11:19:07+08:00","duration":597,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":0.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.691593750000003,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.972843750000003,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.54659375,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.56596875,"end":62.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.51909375,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.82159375,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.24284375,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.51721875000001,"end":101.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.87159375,"end":118.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.79721875000001,"end":124.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.92284375000001,"end":136.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.64346875,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":151.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.92284375,"end":169.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.54034375,"end":181.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.97284375,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.93846875,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.65284375000002,"end":212.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.14534375000002,"end":225.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.40534375000001,"end":225.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.98721875,"end":226.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.18534375000002,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.93534375000002,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.05284375000002,"end":239.23409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.72346875000002,"end":240.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.44909375,"end":246.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.88284375,"end":252.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.36784375000002,"end":247.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.86909375000002,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.76346875000002,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.86471875,"end":254.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.88159375,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.25721875,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.42971875,"end":296.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.22659375,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.40659375,"end":299.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.80721875,"end":301.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":321.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.02284375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.41221875,"end":352.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.86596875000004,"end":356.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.46471875000003,"end":387.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.88596875,"end":393.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.92721875,"end":401.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.11596875000004,"end":423.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.94096875,"end":414.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.18534375,"end":416.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.08284375000005,"end":454.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.05846875000003,"end":445.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.61409375000005,"end":459.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.06909375000004,"end":458.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.47409375,"end":459.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.68909375000004,"end":461.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.30471875,"end":475.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.68221875,"end":484.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.46159375,"end":522.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.0759687500001,"end":54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我們有請詮釋部好 請懷次長"},{"start":21.044,"end":42.905,"text":"委員早好 次長早安那我想我們最近可以看到一些公教背景的身份公教背景的一些人員甚至是教育人員在公開場合去發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的一些言論那特別就是說我這邊舉了兩個例子一個是歸基國小的校長在這個抖音上面直接講說我愛你中國 兩愛硬加輕還把自己的IP寫成中國台灣"},{"start":43.826,"end":61.576,"text":"那左邊我們也可以看到歐規則老師是在中國的央視上面接受採訪的時候去說中國人是我們的同胞甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力那我想有一件事情非常嚴重的是因為現在的孩子其實"},{"start":62.577,"end":86.111,"text":"不是只有看課本他們的訊息其實非常多元現在有非常多的人都在看抖音 小紅書裡面滿滿的都是一些中國現在有多現代 多強大那台灣很落後的一些資訊這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治可是這些潛台詞都一直在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的一個認同讓孩子開始覺得說"},{"start":86.971,"end":100.967,"text":"好像的確喔中國比較好喔那尤其是我們的校長跟老師都在附和的時候不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答啦我覺得這對國家更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊的一個非常大的威脅"},{"start":102.068,"end":117.294,"text":"我想要再次重申我們尊重言論自由但也尊重學術自由但自由的底線不能危害國家的安全所以根據我們的公務人員服務事實我們是有這些說要克遵政府法令中心努力切實執行職務"},{"start":118.837,"end":135.43,"text":"那我想問一下我們剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢跟委員報告就是說剛剛您所那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員對他是不是用我們公務員的這個服務事實跟公務員服務法的一個規範"},{"start":136.571,"end":151.002,"text":"對 因為他如果沒有兼行正職嘛他就不算對不對好 那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方就算因為在我們現在教務人員他教育人員並不屬於公務人員的一個服務法可是他同樣是領我們國家的薪水同樣是拿我們納稅人的薪水"},{"start":152.003,"end":181.563,"text":"那在這個基準之下也應該要不能不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具那所以呢我們如果從現在的兩岸人民關係條例九之三其實他對於承認這些國防外交大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長他們如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止付給這個退附金可是在我們現在相關的法令上面似乎沒有去約束我們所謂的教育人員所以我也想要請教一下我們的教育部抱歉"},{"start":181.903,"end":182.027,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":183.018,"end":212.061,"text":"教育部跟全序部喔好請是不是應當來討論因為這個問題不是一次兩個啦已經非常多的案例出現了如果當我們教育人員有涉及危害國家安全分類國家的語言的言語特別是調查屬實的時候我們是不是應該在教育人員退府條例中設置忠誠條款呢對於退府金會有所減額或取消我想請教一下教育部跟全序部的想法教育部"},{"start":213.792,"end":238.971,"text":"謝謝委員依照目前教育基本法的規定教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場而且老師他還要傳授有關於法治愛國對我現在的問題就是說如果他違背了這個違背的話如果說有適當的是不是可以再需要再退伍條例給有一些中產條款我想這部分我想應該是有一個一致的做法我們會跟詮釋部那態度上面呢"},{"start":240.692,"end":258.806,"text":"我們還是強調教育要秉中立的立場而且要符合國家的法令所以我想確認一下所以您的意思是說你們會跟全市部討論那未來會往這個方向去做一些調整嗎還是全市部跟委員報告一下因為剛剛像這個都是屬於比較特例的狀況"},{"start":259.787,"end":279.653,"text":"那那個如果是涉及到兩岸部分因為我們目前兩岸人民關係條例就剛剛韋雲展示在這上面的已經有那另外在國家安全法上面他也有一個條款在處理這個區塊那我們會比較建議就法治來講要單純化的話應該是要在國家安全法上面來做一個處理這個可能是法治"},{"start":280.473,"end":296.054,"text":"國家安全法上面去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎就是剛剛您提到了嘛因為我們國家安全法上對於那些行為啊什麼那個譬如說它都有那個包括停止你退休金啊什麼它是一個規範在那邊在法治上會比較完整"},{"start":296.454,"end":320.957,"text":"好 所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了好我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關的規範去彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方因為我認為這個演算法已經跨越國界了可是我們不能讓國家無法可管退福經是對於國家忠誠者的一個照顧不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人好 那再下一個問題我快 下一個問題就留全序部就可以了"},{"start":324.003,"end":340.575,"text":"這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於這個要停止下降公教人員退府金的所得替代率但是我們今天回頭來看在114年的6月最新的退府基金精算報告已經明確指出現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補"},{"start":341.596,"end":370.573,"text":"才能夠維持一個正常的運作又例如我們的教育部我115年的教育書預算書顯示我們現在要針對退府基金要撥補92億那我想問一下在我們這個現在我們在2017年的時候呢制定公職公立教職人員退府條例的時候其實就是要減緩我們退府基金的一個財務壓力以及要讓我們的年輕人也是有可以機會拿得到的"},{"start":370.973,"end":387.364,"text":"所以才去透過每年10年的下降所得替代率的方式讓退府基金可以去支持教育人員的一個退休給付的作業那我想要請問一下那在現在的狀況之下如果我們停止下降所得替代率對於退府基金的確實影響是什麼哪一年會提早歸零"},{"start":389.646,"end":411.305,"text":"教育人員部分會到民國129年因為原來我們設計是希望134年嘛那這樣會變成提前到129年那另外一個部分就因為他調降就停止調降所得TID的話本來調降下來的這個錢不是政府會再拿回去而是本來他會進入到我們基金那這個部分我們大概在預期啦就假設的話我們大概就會有減少2700多億的部分進入到我們這個基金"},{"start":415.288,"end":444.475,"text":"那再加上那個我們因為在112年實行新的那個儲金制度的那個缺口加起來等於說事實上這個部分就會讓我們基金的可運用的錢就會減少那這個部分我也跟委員報告因為我們從年改前大概退伍基金大概是5600多億那截至目前為止已經到了1兆1000多億左右那就是這個年改的結果就是說我們一方面這種挹注那我們1個月前進入到這個基金那這包括基金的一個操作"},{"start":444.935,"end":461.548,"text":"都會有一些爭議嘛就增加那個收益的部分所以讓我們基金會比較大那如果這樣的話等於就是停在那個地方而且我們還要再多支出以上請問一下我想確認一下我之前讀到報告是說大概可能在提前三四年就會見底了是嗎這是正確的嗎對就會好那我有一些建議我覺得就是說"},{"start":462.389,"end":474.98,"text":"我覺得我們也要考量一件事情啦就是說改革年金上路之後呢這幾年的物價的確是波動蠻大的所以導致我們在退休給付制度上面應該要來去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定那學者的意見有三個"},{"start":476.881,"end":491.267,"text":"抱歉學者的意見有三個就是說他們建議就是第一個維持改革的核心引入彈性的機制研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的幾幅調整以更彈性的方式來去回應經濟環境的變化"},{"start":493.308,"end":522.015,"text":"第二個就是確立撥補的法律約束力應該去強制行政部門依經算結果執行十年期的計劃把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上第三個就是啟動對新制的一個長期監測要持續的去關注這個可能對於人員招募 留任及退休的適足性的一個影響所以我想問一下就是針對這三點上面我們有沒有相關的因應對策可不可以簡短回答"},{"start":522.295,"end":538.757,"text":"我簡單報告一下我們在112年大概我們全區部有召集相關機關包括教育部在內我們大概希望用10年方式來撥補大概每年能夠撥補317億不過這部分也跟您報告就是說因為到目前為止包括115年的預算大概加起來大概520億左右"},{"start":539.978,"end":556.388,"text":"那我們這個未來還會持續在爭取希望那個行政院跟主席總書這邊能夠每年能夠希望以十年方式來給我們撥補那另外一個部分就是說我們現在現行的制度設計教育人員部分就已經有CPI正負百分之五或就算你沒有達到正負百分之五你四年我們一定會檢討"},{"start":557.168,"end":572.855,"text":"所以一定會檢討就對了這兩個機制都同時存在我們事實上已經從實施新制退休股區以後大概退休人員部分已經調整6%左右所以我們其實是有反映現在經濟的狀態就對了我簡單最後一句話做個總結"},{"start":575.516,"end":596.102,"text":"就是說我希望就是說因為這個對於整體的財政其實是有個長期的負擔的結構性的問題我希望權序部可以做出一個更明確的數據預估以及明確的說明未來可能會產生的影響讓社會大眾都能夠清楚的了解因為我們推動年輕改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到 領得久 領得安心 謝謝好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝張委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時9分）謝謝主席，有請銓敘部。"],["主席：好，請懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["張委員雅琳：次長早安。我們最近可以看到公教背景身分的一些人員，甚至是教育人員在公開場合發表一些分裂國家或者是危害國家安全的言論，特別就是我舉的兩個例子，一個是會稽國小的校長在抖音上面直接講說「我愛你中國、兩岸一家親」，還把自己的IP寫成中國臺灣。左邊我們可以看到區桂芝老師是在中國央視上面接受採訪的時候說中國人是我們的同胞，甚至在央視上面批評我國的總統將中國定為境外敵對勢力。","我想，有一件事情非常嚴重的是，因為現在的孩子其實不是只有看課本，他們的訊息其實非常多元，現在有非常多的人都在看抖音、小紅書，裡面滿滿都是一些中國現在有多現代、多強大、臺灣很落後的一些資訊。這些影片雖然都沒有談到政治，可是這些潛台詞都已經在洗腦孩子的潛意識去重塑他們對於國家的認同，讓孩子開始覺得說好像的確中國比較好，尤其是校長跟老師都在附和的時候，不要說家長不知道該怎麼回答，我覺得這對國家來說，更是一個如何從內部團結面對中國赤裸裸攻擊非常大的威脅。","我想要再次重申，我們尊重言論自由，但也尊重學術自由，但自由的底線不能危害國家安全，所以根據我們的公務人員服務誓詞，有提到要恪遵政府法令、忠心努力、切實執行職務。我想問一下，剛剛那樣子的發言是不是已經違背了這個誓言呢？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，剛剛您說的那兩位應該都是屬於教育人員。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["懷次長敍：他不適用公務員服務事實跟公務員服務法的規範。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為如果他沒有兼行政職，他就不算，對不對？"],["懷次長敍：是、對。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那接下來就是我要跟你討論的地方，因為在現在教育人員並不屬於公務人員服務法，可是他同樣是領國家的薪水，同樣是拿納稅人的薪水，在這個基準之下，也應該不能夠產出一些分裂國家的工具，所以從現在的兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三來看，對於曾任這些國防、外交、大陸事務或情報機關的政務副首長，如果有妨礙國家尊嚴的行為是可以停止給付退撫金，可是現在相關法令似乎沒有去約束所謂的教育人員，所以我也想要請教一下教育部和銓敘部。"],["主席：好，請。"],["張委員雅琳：是不是應當來討論？因為這個問題不是一個、兩個，已經非常多的案例出現，如果當教育人員有涉及危害國家安全、分裂國家的言語，特別是調查屬實的時候，我們是不是應該在教育人員退撫條例中設置忠誠條款，對於退撫金會有所減額或取消？我想請教一下教育部和銓敘部的想法。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員，依照目前教育基本法的規定，教育本來就是要秉持中立的立場，而且老師還要傳授有關法治、愛國等等相關規定。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我現在的問題就是如果他違背了這個……"],["朱次長俊彰：違背的話，如果有適當的……是不是需要在退撫條例有一些忠誠條款，我想這部分應該要有一個一致的作法，我們會跟銓敘部、人總……"],["張委員雅琳：那態度上面呢？"],["朱次長俊彰：我們還是強調，教育要秉持中立的立場，而且要符合國家的法令。"],["張委員雅琳：我想確認一下，所以您的意思是，你們會跟銓敘部討論，未來往這個方向去做一些調整嗎？還是請銓敘部？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告一下，因為剛剛像這些都是屬於比較特例的狀況，如果是涉及到兩岸的部分，因為目前兩岸人民關係條例就在剛剛委員您所展示的上面已經有。另外在國家安全法上面也有一個條款專門在處理這個區塊，我們會比較建議，就法制來講要單純化的話，應該是要在國家安全法上面來處理，那個可能是比較法制……"],["張委員雅琳：從國家安全法上去處理的話是會影響到什麼嗎？"],["懷次長敍：就是剛剛您提到的，因為國家安全法上對於那些行為，包括停止退休金等等，它是一個規範在那邊，在法制上會比較完整。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以你們會從這個方向去做一些修正就對了？"],["懷次長敍：我們會建議如果要，應該從那個方向。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我希望我們應該要一致的去盤點相關規範，彌補這些所謂法律空白的地方，因為我認為演算法已經跨越國界了，可是我們不能讓國家無法可管，退撫金是對於國家忠誠者的照顧，不應該去照顧那些背叛國家的人。","好，再下一個問題請銓敘部就可以了，教育部請回，謝謝。這次國民黨提出的這個版本就是對於要停止下降公教人員退撫金的所得替代率，但是我們今天回頭來看，在114年6月最新的退撫基金精算報告已經明確指出，現在的財務狀況已經需要仰賴政府撥補才能夠維持正常的運作，又例如教育部115年度預算書顯示現在要針對退撫基金撥補92億。我們知道在2017年制定公立學校教職員退撫條例的時候，其實就是要減緩退撫基金的財務壓力，以及要讓年輕人也有機會可以拿得到，所以才會透過每十年下降所得替代率的方式，讓退撫基金可以支持教育人員的退休給付作業。我想請問一下，在現在的狀況之下，如果停止下降所得替代率，對於退撫基金的確實影響是什麼？哪一年會提早歸零？"],["懷次長敍：那就會變成教育人員的部分會到民國129年，因為原來我們的設計是希望到134年，這樣會變成提前到129年。另外一個部分，如果停止調降所得替代率的話，本來調降下來的錢不是政府會再拿回去，而是會進入到基金，這個部分預期大概會減少兩千七百多億進入到基金，再加上因為在112年實行新的儲金制度的缺口，加起來就會讓基金可運用的錢減少。關於這個部分，我也跟委員報告，年改前退撫基金大概只有五千六百多億，截至目前為止，已經到了一兆一千多億左右，這就是年改的結果，政府一方面挹注，把節約的錢進入到基金，再包括基金的操作都會有一些增益，也就是增加收益的部分，所以讓我們的基金會變得比較大。如果這樣的話，等於就是停在那個地方，而且我們還要再多支出，以上簡單報告。"],["張委員雅琳：我想確認一下，我之前讀到的報告是說大概可能再提前三、四年就會見底了，是嗎？這是正確的嗎？"],["懷次長敍：對，就會見底"],["張委員雅琳：那我有一些建議，我覺得也要考量一件事情，就是年金改革上路之後，這幾年物價的確是波動蠻大的，導致在退休給付制度上面應該要去思考怎麼樣可以更穩定。學者的意見有三個，關於他們的建議，第一個是維持改革的核心，引入彈性的機制，研究與物價或經濟成長率連動的給付調整，以更彈性的方式去回應經濟環境的變化。第二個是確立撥補的法律約束力，強制行政部門依精算結果執行十年期計畫，把長期財政的責任政治放在短期政治利益之上。第三個是啟動對新制的長期監測，持續關注對於人員招募、留任及退休適足性的影響。我想問一下，針對這三點有沒有相關的因應對策，可不可以簡短回答？"],["懷次長敍：我簡單報告一下，在112年銓敘部有召集相關機關，包括教育部在內，我們希望用十年的方式來撥補，大概每年能夠撥補317億。不過也跟您報告，這部分到目前為止，包括115年的預算，加起來大概520億左右，未來我們還會持續爭取，希望行政院跟主計總處能夠以十年的方式來給我們撥補。另外一個部分，依照現行的制度設計，教育人員的部分就已經有CPI正負5%的考量，就算沒有達到正負百分之五，每四年一定會檢討，我們……"],["張委員雅琳：所以一定會檢討就對了？"],["懷次長敍：對，這兩個機制都同時存在。事實上，從實施退休撫卹新制以後，退休人員的部分大概已經調整6%左右，以上報告。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，所以其實是有反映現在的經濟狀態就對了。我簡單最後一句話做個總結，因為這對於整體財政其實是有個長期負擔的結構性問題，我希望銓敘部可以做出更明確的數據預估，以及明確說明未來可能會產生的影響，讓社會大眾都能夠清楚地了解，因為我們推動年金改革的目標就是要讓大家領得到、領得久、領得安心，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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首先有請我們國防會業主委好 我們再請國防會業主委"},{"start":19.585,"end":38.738,"text":"議員好 葉哲瑋你這份報告寫得很好非常清晰而且非常明瞭但是這裡面你提到你的施大施重的目標創新經濟 均衡台灣 精進治理及投資人才"},{"start":40.338,"end":57.345,"text":"剛剛我看到政權委員的執行關於桃子苗大矽谷計畫我們為了這個大矽谷計畫也聯合了桃園市新直縣新直市苗栗縣整個再綜合的檢討"},{"start":58.666,"end":86.09,"text":"那大家都感覺好像國會也不怎麼重視經濟部也不怎麼重視行政院現在越來越大牌已經反映了幾十次我們說裡面有很多問題要來解決了譬如在苗栗有一個投資的科學研區有一個職能科學研區第二期有一個產業科技研區那經濟部我們大概都已經協調完成了"},{"start":86.75,"end":107.711,"text":"那主覽的科學運氣第二期是包括第一期裡面的一個延伸我一直拜託你們做協調 您好像沒搖沒緊口號喊得那麼大 這是未來曹植苗的一個希望跟未來但是我們對這個問題跟你請教 你們都躲在後面好像沒有人敢去承擔 敢去擔當一樣"},{"start":111.014,"end":131.434,"text":"職亂科學運區第二期的時候我們要請國科會來擔任目的事業的主管機關到現在都沒有一點進展尤其是你們劉指揮在謝震的那天晚上發一個給我他說做下來以後沒有把我這個幫完成那葉指揮要不要替我們幫忙"},{"start":133.536,"end":154.762,"text":"在那個合法合法 你問問黃次長很優秀他了解這個狀況我看你有拍到嗎沒有拍到剛剛看你在問答的話18天好像還不好意思不好意思不會啦當那個行政院的小內閣是非常大你是行政院的小內閣非常大要發揮你的power好不好"},{"start":156.766,"end":180.225,"text":"我會 我會盡量來協調好不好 多久一直在等待我回到地方都被人家是不是要取消了中央不支持中央只支持南部不支持北部不支持苗栗縣好不好 我希望這一點既然計畫你們已經合訂了出來了全力的推動好不好好 這第一點第二點"},{"start":181.246,"end":183.934,"text":"你所有的工作內容裡面協調推動AI"},{"start":186.9,"end":210.361,"text":"新十大建設這裡面分得看起來很好但是我有一點AI軟體的產業跟東方你們畫在世衛部這個一定要跟經濟部的結合因為這裡面有很多軟體要實際在運作實際跟工廠在討論你才有辦法我只要說你AI十大建設好像是在那個"},{"start":213.356,"end":241.807,"text":"分餐一樣 這個部位多少錢這個都要跨部位合作不說它簡單一行就行再來裡面我有意見的時候就是全球AI機器人供應鏈的私流你們排在國科會我就有時候覺得很懷疑是要給大學的還是怎麼來做這個跟產業鏈有關係啊跟哪一家工廠特稅有關係啊跟哪一種運行有關係啊"},{"start":243.753,"end":257.346,"text":"這邊都沒有只有高科會分給大學大學去研究他要對產業很了解才可以不是憑光想像的我希望你們能務實這一點的時候真的有幾個地方要討論一下"},{"start":259.657,"end":286.215,"text":"你點頭是怎樣 可以不可以你可以回答我知道那個委員的關心我也認同就是說其實產業的發展不光是在學校而且要產業之間要互相的配合所以我們其實也有某一些計畫其實是在鼓勵大學要有一個育成的東西這個是關鍵的時候現在邊學習不是在台灣管理很厚的很內行的世界十個都在那邊這個競爭已經非常激烈了"},{"start":290.077,"end":310.666,"text":"再來啊 你重大的公共建設完全又有談有很多預算都過了 你們還丟在那邊好像都不敢動 每次用財政措施法 文法還沒有確定怎麼樣那是今年的預算耶 已經拼在裡面了 也不核定啊這個政府也跟他拼了"},{"start":312.386,"end":331.049,"text":"那個顏色不要那麼重你會不會顏色很重我希望你不會但是每一個人都是講不會都是講為國家來做服務的但是做事情不要這樣我們已經明顯的看出來要把你調查太多了不送媒體我們背在心裡"},{"start":333.355,"end":360.414,"text":"我從現在大罷免完了就要真的做事情還有原來國外的人才這裡面很重要但是你要記得我們薪資的競爭都比我們鄰近日本、韓國還要低不是只有水利化提高薪資啦不然你覺得我們台灣我一直在強調台灣會變成AI的訓練所尤其這個執政黨到日本到美國到歐洲"},{"start":361.411,"end":366.716,"text":"我給你一個消息日本要引進印度5萬個AI的人才"},{"start":368.547,"end":391.706,"text":"那AI人才現在把它發掘應用印度台當CEO的話這個公司都會倒你不要看這個資料它會結幫結派所以你這一方面台灣的人才訓練自己水往地去流 人往高去爬大家都到薪資高的地方又有利卡台灣又在地緣政治裡面戰爭邊緣"},{"start":393.447,"end":415.123,"text":"大家想嘛,我們去做人的腦袋我們不要指財禁用我們自己選的人才把他留在台灣這個真的未來會發生一個非常嚴重的問題啊你每次都說得很好聽我要如何,我要如何實在我很擔心啊真的,你多看那一些日本要用"},{"start":416.53,"end":441.344,"text":"引進AI人才要從印度引進五萬人你看這世界是怎麼在變不是我們口講的那些真的我們要面臨很多問題那我們現在都自我陶醉我們很強我們不怕人家的競爭好 再來今天很多人在問我有一點很遺憾你國會會的職位不曉得我們校務總統"},{"start":443.517,"end":468.123,"text":"說要除了台積電要把ICT的生態產業鏈要外移到美國我們要到美國開RAID科學運氣的方式你想ICT是什麼自動性產品不是除了經營ICT就是封裝測試高階的封裝測試那我再跟"},{"start":470.011,"end":499.614,"text":"主委討論一下 高階的封裝車是你曉得嗎 用人是最多的地方啊啊什麼美國生產一半 台灣生產一半我們的根被割掉 我們都不曉得啊我請教你 你相信美國嗎他是好人嗎他真的照顧台灣嗎你要看起來 他要了什麼 你就乖乖給他你以為那些參議員來這邊訪問的都做什麼都是叫我買武器"},{"start":501.004,"end":521.525,"text":"我們台灣政府 我也不曉得為什麼那麼相信他我們坑都被挖光了 你們都沒有反應說這個叫做擴展實力 我跟你說有時候講起來看起來很有道理 就叫做出賣台灣坑每一個在競爭 我錢多我去找"},{"start":522.677,"end":539.15,"text":"我們台灣不一定會比人家贏世界的人才很多這第一點跟委員報告那個五十五十我們是不會接你做國務法會主委連政府都不跟你同情楊瓊園委員很有人心叫你三個月的報告照這樣的話"},{"start":540.811,"end":558.87,"text":"不然我們立委怎麼曉得兩天前的新聞出來我馬上要問對臺灣的影響要了多少所以表示這個政府裡面的反應很慢這是大家關心的問題啊切切實實會怎麼樣你們也不講明白說好啦臺灣沒有關係臺灣的實力很強啊臺積電很強"},{"start":563.834,"end":593.346,"text":"台積電你們就報告說我們只營5年到10年我們還要這樣自我逃稅人才外流什麼機器都外流到國外大家都拚自己的管你台灣是誰我不知道你們做生意在競爭的世界是這樣在拚還有一點我從來要談台積電的二耐敏機器已經外流到日本的TL他們也在試製的二耐敏"},{"start":594.281,"end":612.972,"text":"我們政府輕描淡寫 這不是偷情這個是轉移 非常的奇怪二難民的機制等於國安的機制我們這都不發生還是說臺灣有事 日本就有事作為調案的條件"},{"start":614.453,"end":633.999,"text":"所以台積電2奈米那個時候台灣被拖起了 日本沒有事情我覺得這個政府委員怪到底是為誰服務的主委 人生一直想要好好跟你討論沒有 因為剛剛我因為我覺得這個問題你這個很重要的未來規劃台灣的願景啊你們都覺得沒有關係 這樣有過"},{"start":643.836,"end":666.618,"text":"臺灣啊 會那個什麼 青蛙指紋 水會變臨這些官員啊從來沒有警惕的意思好像臺灣世界無敵 要把你餓很快啦我跟你講 你看連日本都不能當間諜來這邊偷我們2奈米的美國沒有間諜嘛 不要想得太天真了啦 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時7分）主席好。首先請國發會葉主委。"],["主席：請國發會葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：葉主委好。主委，你這份報告寫得很好，非常清晰，也非常明瞭，在這裡面你提到國發會的四大施政目標：創新經濟、均衡臺灣、精進治理及投資人才。剛剛我看到鄭正鈐委員質詢關於桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的問題，為了這個大矽谷計畫，聯合了桃園市、新竹縣、新竹市、苗栗縣綜合檢討，但感覺上好像國發會不怎麼重視，經濟部也不怎麼重視，行政院現在越來越大牌，已經反映了幾十次，我們說裡面有很多問題要解決，譬如苗栗有一個頭份科學園區、一個竹南科學園區第二期，還有一個產業科技園區，我們大概都已經和經濟部協調完成了，竹南科學園區第二期是第一期的延伸，我一直拜託你們要協調，但你們好像都無關緊要，口號喊得那麼大，說這是桃竹苗的一個希望跟未來，但是遇到問題去請教你們，你們都躲在後面，好像沒有人敢去承擔、擔當。有關竹南科學園區第二期，我們請國科會擔任目的事業主管機關，但到現在沒有一點進展，尤其你們劉主委在卸任的那一天晚上發了一個訊息給我，說沒能幫我把這個完成，那葉主委要不要幫忙我們？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在合法的……"],["陳委員超明：你問我們黃次長，他很優秀，了解整個狀況，就看你有沒有魄力啦！剛剛看你答詢，因為剛上任，好像還很不好意思，不會啦！你是行政院的小內閣，非常大的，要發揮你的power，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，我們會儘量來協調，因為……"],["陳委員超明：多久時間？我們一直在等待啊！我回到地方，都被鄉親質疑是不是要取消了？中央不支持，中央只支持南部，不支持北部、不支持苗栗縣啦！既然計畫已經核定了，應該要全力推動，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：嗯！嗯！"],["陳委員超明：好，這是第一點。","第二點，你的工作內容裡面有協調推動AI新十大建設，這裡面分的看起來很好，但是我有一點，AI軟體的產業你們放在數位部，這個一定要跟經濟部做結合，因為這裡面有很多軟體要實際運作，實際跟工廠討論才有辦法。我知道你們AI十大建設好像是分贓一樣，這個部會多少錢，這個都要跨部會合作，不是那麼簡單一個部會就可以。再來，裡面我有意見的地方，就是全球AI機器人供應鏈的樞紐，你們擺在國科會，我有時候就覺得很懷疑，是要給大學的還是什麼來做？這個跟產業鏈有關係，跟哪一家工廠特殊有關係，跟哪一種引擎有關係，這邊都沒有，只有國科會分給大學去研究，他要對產業很了解才可以啦！不是憑空想像的，我希望你們能務實，這一點真的有幾個地方要討論一下，你點頭是怎樣？可以不可以？你可以回答。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我知道委員的關心，我也認同其實產業的發展不光是在學校，而且產業之間要互相配合，所以我們其實也有某一些計畫是在鼓勵……"],["陳委員超明：我真的講，你們要務實。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：大學要有一個育才中心……"],["陳委員超明：這個是關鍵的時候，現在不是在臺灣裡面說你很厲害、很內行，而是世界各國都在拚，這個競爭已經非常激烈了。再來，重大的公共建設，楊瓊瓔委員也有談到，有很多預算都過了，你們還丟在那邊，好像都不敢動，每次都說財政收支劃分法還沒有確定怎麼樣，那是今年的預算耶！已經編在裡面也不核定，這個政府要拚命一點，顏色不要那麼重，你會不會顏色很重？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會啊！"],["陳委員超明：我希望你不會。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：大家都為全體民眾服務。"],["陳委員超明：但是每一個人都講不會，都是講為國家來做服務，但是做事情不要這樣，我們已經明顯的看出來，要把你們點出來的東西太多了，不勝枚舉，我們憋在心裡啊！現在大罷免完之後，就要真的做事情啊！還有延攬國外的人才很重要，但是你要記得，我們薪資的競爭都比鄰近的日本、韓國還要低，不是只用嘴在喊提高薪資，不然我們臺灣……我一直在強調，臺灣會變成AI的訓練所，尤其這個執政黨到日本、到美國、到歐洲，我給你一個消息，日本要引進5萬個印度的AI人才，現在大家發現用印度人當CEO的話，公司都會倒，你沒看過這個資料，他會結幫結派，所以在這一方面，臺灣的人才訓練，水往低處流，人往高處爬，大家都到薪資高的地方，又有綠卡，臺灣又在地緣政治裡面、戰爭邊緣，大家都要跑，我們不要去做人家的奴才，我們難道不應該舉才進用，讓我們的人才留在臺灣嗎？這個真的未來會發生一個非常嚴重的問題，你們每天講得很好聽，說我要如何、我要如何，我實在很擔心，真的，你多看那一些。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["陳委員超明：日本要引進AI人才，要從印度引進5萬人，你看這個世界是怎麼在拚的，不是我們口講的那一些，真的我們要面臨很多問題，那我們現在都自我陶醉說我們很強，我們不怕人家戰爭。","再來，今天很多人在問，我有一點很遺憾，國發會的主委不曉得我們蕭副總統說除了台積電，要把ICT的生態產業鏈外移到美國，我們要到美國開類科學園區的方式，你曉得ICT是什麼？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：自動性產品。"],["陳委員超明：不是，除了晶圓，ICT就是封裝測試，高階的封裝測試。那我再跟主委討論一下，高階的封裝測試用人是最多的地方，什麼美國生產一半，臺灣生產一半，我們的根被割掉我們都不曉得啊！我請教你，你相信美國嗎？他是好人嗎？他真的照顧臺灣嗎？他要什麼你就乖乖給他，你以為那些參議員來這邊訪問做什麼？都是叫我們買武器。我也不曉得臺灣政府為什麼那麼相信他，我們的根都被挖光了，你們都沒有反應，說這個叫做擴展實力。我跟你說，有時候講起來、看起來很有道理，這叫做出賣臺灣，跟每一個國家在競爭，我錢多我去砸，我們臺灣不一定會贏人家耶！世界的人才很多，這是第一點。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，那個50/50我們是不會……"],["陳委員超明：你做國發會主委，連政府都沒有通知你，楊瓊瓔委員很有人性，叫你三個月出報告，照這樣的話，不然我們立委怎麼曉得？兩天前的新聞出來，我們馬上要問對臺灣的影響會有多少？所以表示這個政府的反應很慢，這是大家關心的問題，確確實實會怎麼樣你們也不講明白，就說好啦！臺灣沒有關係、臺灣的實力很強、台積電很強。你們的報告說台積電只贏5年到10年，我們還要這樣自我陶醉，人才外流，什麼機器都外流到國外，大家都是拚自己的，管你臺灣是誰，在世界競爭生意都是這樣在拚的。","還有一點我仍然要談，台積電的2奈米技術已經外流到日本的TEL，他們也在試製2奈米，我們政府輕描淡寫，說這不是偷取，這個是轉移，非常的奇怪。2奈米的技術等於國安的技術，我們政府都不發聲，還是說「臺灣有事日本就有事」作為交換的條件，所以台積電2奈米技術被偷取了，然後日本沒有事情，我覺得這個政府也很怪，到底是為誰服務的？主委，鈴聲一直響，但我要好好跟你討論。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，因為剛剛委員……"],["陳委員超明：我覺得有很多問題都很重要，未來規劃臺灣的願景，你們都覺得沒有關係，臺灣就像溫水煮青蛙，你們這些官員從來沒有警惕的意思，好像臺灣世界無敵，我跟你講，要跟你學很快啦！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有啦！我們也不會覺得……"],["陳委員超明：你看，連日本都有間諜來這邊偷我們2奈米，美國沒有間諜嗎？不要想得太天真了啦！謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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這個省經部的報告省經部的報告是75我們已經付了75但是事實上 75%我們到今年底我們只付了61那沒有交機的部分我們都按照跟美方的這個討論之後好 現在我就問一個很重要的問題啦因為這個特別預算是115年底就明年底要執行完畢如果那時候都還沒有交完貨怎麼辦 你告訴我怎麼辦"},{"start":353.966,"end":365.213,"text":"我們會按程序做預算的保留因為現在看起來是風險是非常的高所以就是你講說明年底交不了60價就對了啦我們評估風險很高就交不了啦簡單來講就是交不了這樣就對了那這個東西你保留預算我覺得另外有個方式嘛"},{"start":377,"end":389.574,"text":"你這個可以特別預算來修改一下不就好了把那個後面時間往後延一下不就好了這個我們會按程序來走程序你是說保留還是保留保留很久預算保留跟執行年度我們都會一併檢討"},{"start":390.919,"end":409.962,"text":"好另外一個另外一個最後一個問題我要講一下現在你們正在發展一個東西叫做軍民兩用無人機就是無人機平時轉轉平站的轉換就平時轉為暫時所以就是軍商用的"},{"start":411.341,"end":425.737,"text":"軍商規 共用軍商共用的規格第一個小問題來問一下那個副總長你知道現在的操控手或者是空軍司令的那個參謀長那個我說要訓練一千個人結果只訓練三百個人"},{"start":428.174,"end":444.026,"text":"然後現在規定 按照我們國防部的規定針對於大陸港澳產品是不可以用大陸產品那你現在軍跟商用的無人機是共用那商的部分很多是大陸的晶片"},{"start":445.348,"end":463.945,"text":"這一來的話這裡面風險其實蠻高的按照你們的規定來講這個如何的避免這個事情你們正在發生這個喔比如說這個有叫軍民共規策略軍民通用無人機能量籌建這兩個大計畫都在做這個事情來 長官要不要回答一下"},{"start":465.12,"end":484.235,"text":"哪一位長官可以回答我請採購室主任跟您做個詳細回答簡單來講就是居民方面裡面無論幾很多是大陸的晶片結果你現在要轉換為暫時那都是有 因為就有這個大家所擔心的治安的問題"},{"start":485.447,"end":506.979,"text":"委員好 國防財務室主任跟您報告不管是軍用還是商用我們對於這個廠商的要求我們規定是不能夠有錄製品也就是說像無人機它是屬於軍用商用很多錄製品的 怎麼沒有呢商用也是我們包含買商用的無人機或軍用無人機一律是禁止這個錄製品我們都有這個履約 履約督導還有這個驗收的這個規定這個不是我講的喔 是審計部講的喔"},{"start":515.163,"end":543.363,"text":"你們的國防部的採購契約買無人機方面沒有與國防部的這個履約驗收作業指導的相關規定審計部 這個話審計部講不是我講的啊審計部講的啊審計資料我們辦的 我們訂的這個作業指導是在去年8月30號訂的也就是這個指導之後我們是確實落實按照這個作業指導來執行這個履約督導和驗收"},{"start":544.076,"end":550.791,"text":"我不知道你怎麼去管到民間的民間買無人機你怎麼去管得到民間買的商用的"},{"start":551.618,"end":565.804,"text":"民間買對啊 軍民兩用啊 軍民兩用啊你沒有聽懂我意思我們有軍用商規的五輪機我們也會去買商規的 商用的五輪機可是就在這個採購的規定裡頭有這個非常明確的綠定它不可以裡頭有這個大陸的你沒聽懂我意思我現在講是你們在發展一個叫軍民"},{"start":575.308,"end":598.818,"text":"居民共規策略就是軍用的無人機跟民間用的無人機民間用的無人機你沒辦法阻止他他的無人機裡面有大陸的晶片可是我們在採購的時候我們就會檢查他如果我們要買的是軍用商規的無人機也就是這種這個一般外面商業生產的這個無人機的時候他裡頭必須"},{"start":600.859,"end":607.881,"text":"不能有大陸的所以等於說民間你們現在有兩個計畫一個是你們 一個是經濟部經濟部是軍民通用無人機能量籌建有兩個 都是說我這個按照好好的方法想就是擴大我們無人機的規模啦size啦這不是壞事但是就是在民間他會用到的無人機裡面的晶片是大陸做的晶片"},{"start":628.607,"end":636.588,"text":"可是他只要進入軍方的採購我們就會限制他不得使用大陸方面的零件我講一句話就結束了審計部打你們的臉說你們的採購契約無人機的採購契約沒有與國防部的相關的作為指導你回去檢討好不好審計部給你們的一個糾正這是糾正喔他裡面有讀了一下糾正你們就是代表你剛剛講的話你沒有落實"},{"start":656.912,"end":660.93,"text":"我們現在的確已經在開始落實這個相關的概念現在在開始落實是謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時1分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請副參謀總長、楊常務次長，還有陸軍司令部陳參謀長。"],["主席：請副參謀總長、楊常務次長、陸軍陳參謀長。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：幾位長官好。首先，請教陸軍參謀長，有人提到今天302砲營的軍官在砲測中心跳樓，已經走了，有沒有這回事？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，是的。有這件遺憾的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：這軍官到底是為什麼跳樓？有沒有去了解？"],["陳參謀長建義：一早我們循著戰情系統就直接掌握……"],["賴委員士葆：時間是什麼時候？"],["陳參謀長建義：在凌晨5時50分的時候。"],["賴委員士葆：跳下來？"],["陳參謀長建義：是，墜樓。"],["賴委員士葆：他的軍階是怎麼樣？"],["陳參謀長建義：中尉副連長。"],["賴委員士葆：中尉副連長。有沒有去了解什麼原因？"],["陳參謀長建義：他目前是在302旅，但是是在砲測中心接受基地訓練。"],["賴委員士葆：是壓力太大，還是怎麼樣？還是不知道？"],["陳參謀長建義：細節……我們已經在第一時間封鎖了現場，也通知了雲林憲兵隊，因為是營區內的重大傷損案件，目前是由檢調介入調查和釐清。"],["賴委員士葆：確定是自殺？"],["陳參謀長建義：這我不能……因為……報告委員，我剛才已經報告這案件是由檢調介入調查和釐清。"],["賴委員士葆：你們大概什麼時候會對外說明？"],["陳參謀長建義：還是我剛才說的，檢調已經介入處理了。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你請回。這是很遺憾的，到底是怎麼樣，是不是訓練壓力太大？副參謀總長，我先請問你，部長今天早上講，建造一般潛艦都要7年以上，我們現在五年多，言下之意就是你們的進度delay是理所當然的，會是這樣嗎？我們第一艘的潛艦到底什麼時候可以出來？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，實際上，我們國家是第一次自力建造潛艦，當然會面對非常多的挑戰，我們當然是希望做最詳盡的計畫，能夠在我們希望的時間之內獲得。各單位都非常的努力，我們也有很多地方也獲得了突破，但是我相信也可以理解，在這個過程中一定會遭到非常多的困難跟挑戰……"],["賴委員士葆：部長這樣講，我就請教，因為我時間有限，是不是最少要七年，現在五年多，我們要再等一年多才可能看到，是不是？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：那倒不一定。"],["賴委員士葆：最順利最少七年？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：如果按計畫的話，我們五年就可以……"],["賴委員士葆：五年已經到了！"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：那當然是看現在各項的情況，我們根據實際的狀況，在安全跟符合我們的需求……"],["賴委員士葆：現在什麼都沒有，整合系統就是沒辦法整合，事實上我們很擔心給你這麼多錢，加起來差不多500億，對不對？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：事實上，根據……"],["賴委員士葆：會不會變成爛尾艦？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：不會，根據海軍的說明，在一些額外的因素發生之後，我們也做了調整，他們也做了整合，實際上相關的困難都在排除中，也在繼續的推動、進展，應該不會造成您所謂的這種做不下……"],["賴委員士葆：爛尾艦。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：我們很擔心這個，因為三階段中第一階段的浮航都沒有完成，還有淺水潛航、深水潛航。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：當然我們要在安全的原則下一步一步達成我們的功性能，所以當然是做詳盡的測試，都在繼續進行中。"],["賴委員士葆：我請教另外一個問題，大家很關心的，就是我們向美國買武器，交了錢還沒有到貨的，外面是說大概200億美金，這個數字到底有沒有錯？審計部特別針對F-16特別預算2,500億左右，這是審計部講的，114年6月匯出去47.2億美金，占總金額59億美金的六成，我們已經付了六成，結果第一架原來說112年要出廠，delay到今年的Q1，現在還在美國，根本都沒有交貨，現在美國說115年的Q3開始交，115年的Q4完成交貨，你會這麼樂觀看待嗎？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：這部分我請空軍參謀長做詳細的答復。"],["賴委員士葆：請空軍參謀長。"],["李參謀長慶然：委員好。我是空軍參謀長，跟委員報告，我們付款的部分，因為在112年以前都還沒有交機，所以我們是按它的發價書來付款，113年以後，因為交機delay，所以我們並沒有實際的付款給他，那在……"],["賴委員士葆：這是審計部的報告。"],["李參謀長慶然：審計部的報告是我們已經付了75%，但事實上我們到今年底只付了61%，那沒有交機的部分，我們跟美方討論之後……"],["賴委員士葆：現在我就問一個很重要的問題，因為這個特別預算是115年底就明年底要執行完畢，如果那時候都還沒有交完貨怎麼辦？你告訴我怎麼辦。"],["李參謀長慶然：我們會按程序……"],["賴委員士葆：程序是什麼？"],["李參謀長慶然：做預算的保留，因為現在看起來風險非常的高，因為在……"],["賴委員士葆：所以，就是說明年底交不了60架就對了。"],["李參謀長慶然：我們評估風險很高，是。"],["賴委員士葆：就交不了啦，簡單來講就是交不了，這樣就對了。那這部分你說要保留預算，我覺得另外有個方式，可以特別預算來修改一下不就好了？把後面的時間往後延一下不就好了？"],["李參謀長慶然：這個我們會按程序來走。"],["賴委員士葆：程序你是說保留，可是保留會很久。"],["李參謀長慶然：預算保留跟執行年度我們都會一併檢討。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一個問題，我要講一下，現在你們正在發展一個東西，叫做軍民兩用無人機，就是無人機平戰的轉換，就平時轉為戰時，就是軍商共用的規格，第一個小問題問一下副總長或者空軍司令部的參謀長，你知道現在的操控手，我說訓練1,000個人，結果只訓練300個人，然後現在按照我們國防部的規定，不可以用大陸產品，但現在軍跟商用的無人機是共用，那商的部分很多是大陸的晶片，這一來的話，這裡面風險其實蠻高的，按照你們的規定來講，應該如何避免這個事情？你們正在發展這個，比如有叫軍民共規策略、軍民通用無人機能量籌建，這兩個大計畫都在做這個事情。哪一位長官可以回答一下？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員，我請採購室主任跟你做個詳細回答。"],["賴委員士葆：簡單來講就是民方面的無人機很多是大陸的晶片，結果你現在要轉換為戰時，那這裡面就有大家所擔心的資安問題。"],["趙主任亞平：委員好。國防採購室主任跟您報告，不管是軍用還是商用，我們對於廠商的要求，規定是不能夠有陸製品，像無人機是屬於軍用……"],["賴委員士葆：商用很多陸製品的，怎麼沒有？"],["趙主任亞平：商用也是，包含買商用的無人機或軍用無人機，一律是禁止陸製品，我們都有履約督導還有驗收的規定。"],["賴委員士葆：這個不是我講的，是審計部講的，你們的國防部採購契約買無人機，沒有依國防部的履約驗收作業指導的相關規定辦理。這個話是審計部講的，不是我講的，審計資料啊！"],["趙主任亞平：跟委員報告，我們的作業指導是在去年8月30號訂的，也就是有這個指導之後，我們是確實落實按照這個作業指導來執行履約督導和驗收。"],["賴委員士葆：我不知道你怎麼去管到民間買無人機，你怎麼管得到民間買的商用的？"],["趙主任亞平：民間買的？"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，軍民兩用啊！你沒有聽懂我的意思。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，我們有軍用商規的無人機，我們也會去買商規的、商用的無人機，可是就在這個採購規定裡有非常明確的律定，裡頭不可以有大陸的……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒聽懂我的意思，我現在講的是你們在發展一個叫軍民共規策略，就是軍用的無人機跟民間用的無人機，民間用的無人機你沒辦法阻止它用大陸的晶片，這個你們阻止不了。"],["趙主任亞平：可是我們在採購的時候，我們就會檢查，如果我們要買的是軍用商規的無人機，也就是這種一般外面商業生產的無人機，其中必須不能有大陸的零件，我們才會購買。"],["賴委員士葆：你們現在有兩個計畫，一個是你們的、一個是經濟部的，經濟部的是軍民通用無人機能量籌建，往好的方面想就是擴大我們無人機的規模啦，這不是壞事，但是就是民間的無人機會用到大陸做的晶片。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：可是它只要進入軍方的採購，我們就會限制它不得使用大陸方面的零件。"],["賴委員士葆：我講一句話結束了，審計部打你們的臉，說你們的無人機採購契約，沒有依國防部的相關作業指導，你回去檢討，好不好？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：對，我們立即檢討。"],["賴委員士葆：審計部給你們一個糾正，這是糾正喔，我讀了一下，糾正你們就是代表你剛剛講的話沒有落實。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：我們現在的確已經開始在落實這個相關規定。"],["賴委員士葆：現在才開始落實，謝謝。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請傅崐萁委員，傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},{"id":"164406","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164406","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1be4994fc1300c127388348e19566c842c83c966d97180d5d22ee760386b7cab395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:54:59 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謝謝謝主席我想請一下我們國發會主委葉俊賢 葉主委好 我們再請葉主委"},{"start":22.189,"end":43.618,"text":"主委好我想先請教一下因為地方創生計畫是國發會這邊在統籌辦理的我想請教一下110年到114年的計畫總金額大概是多少錢這個部分我方便請木牙給我嗎你剛就職所以有很多東西我們也希望你趕快能夠進到那個狀態當中"},{"start":50.515,"end":57.744,"text":"不要耽擱這時間啦我直接跟你講大概有60億啦有60億那我想先請教一下我們今年的執行金額是多少錢"},{"start":61.378,"end":83.253,"text":"是13億左右13億因為到去年底為止的時候我們目前執行是35億左右今年要執行13億所以基本上這60億是用不完的那我想請教一下過去這麼多年我們從現在就是國發會當中的一個地方創生的相關網站當中我們去查新竹市總共有幾件"},{"start":85.379,"end":111.13,"text":"新竹市我記得好像是清培站有一件然後好像那一個辦公室好像有主委你都還沒有進入狀況我直接把問題丟給你因為你第一次被尋那我也不太為難你可是我希望說把我們關心的問題你能夠好好的去把它給釐清出來新竹大概總共只有三件108年到現在為止大概只有三件那"},{"start":112.762,"end":141.457,"text":"可是目前全國的案件非常非常的多新竹市非常非常的少可是你說因為新竹市比較都會所以說針對青年返鄉然後要創造就業機會這東西沒有需求嗎其實不是新竹市有很多一個創生的一個團隊包括在東門市場當中包括在後站當中都有很多相關的創生團隊可是他們基本上都不在我們這樣子的一個支持的一個清單當中主委你知道什麼原因嗎"},{"start":142.598,"end":167.978,"text":"部分的原因是因為新竹相對於其他縣市是比較繁榮就業比較好啦不是這樣子啦主委我就知道你會這樣簡單的回答可是問題一定不是這麼簡單可是我這邊因為你第一次被選我不想太為難你我想你後續好好去了解一下為什麼會有這麼大的差距因為新竹也許農村不多可是舊城區很多它符合整個創生的一些需求"},{"start":168.678,"end":196.238,"text":"所以我們希望主委針對這個部分你回去好好了解之後再跟本席做一個很清楚的說明好不好就跟委員報告就是說有任何案子過來我們都會接受我們都會很鼓勵的那我現在接下來問下一個問題因為您第一次備詢我就想把幾個重要的我們關心的問題直接跟您這邊做一個質詢桃酒盤大矽谷計畫還要不要往下做當然要啊"},{"start":197.134,"end":217.426,"text":"當然要是不是當然要往下做嘛我為什麼會這樣子問因為從2024年2月22號行政院通過這樣的一個桃君寬大戲舞計畫之後也變成賴總統的一個政見可是我們的一個溝通平台上一次開會是什麼時候 主委上一次開會我記得"},{"start":220.014,"end":238.732,"text":"你是說實體嗎?當然當然當然大概1月的時候吧對1月20號是開會嘛1月20號到現在已經9個月過去了喔9個月過去了之後的時候然後所有的平台都沒有開會然後你說地方政府擔不擔心地方政府非常非常的著急啊你知道嗎"},{"start":240.093,"end":263.68,"text":"現在桃竹竹苗地方首長本來就都有一個相關的一個溝通的一個平台的會議可是桃竹苗大細股計畫這個部分的時候中央跟地方的一個平台溝通的一個會議竟然有9個月都沒有開然後你知道今年3月份的時候新竹市政府發了一個函去問我們國發會針對於392公頃竹科S2期範圍當中的一個部分"},{"start":269.122,"end":275.024,"text":"要請行政院核定為國家重大建設結果你知道情況怎麼樣隔了三個月"},{"start":277.974,"end":299.515,"text":"國發會才回函新竹市政府說請新竹市政府向中央權責機關洽詢三個月之後得到這樣的一個答案所以我才問你說我們桃竹苗大系股市到底有沒有要繼續往前走 目前看起來是沒有啊整個平台的一個會議九個月沒有開是地方政府發函到國發會來"},{"start":302.445,"end":311.374,"text":"問問題 三個月之後 尋答推到中央主管機關 表示好像跟國發會都沒有關係我這邊要特別講到一個點 就是說"},{"start":313.623,"end":337.337,"text":"國發會這邊的時候 針對於桃竹竹苗首長他們提出了一個問題 九個月沒有開平台會議的時候其實你們有做新聞稿的一個回應新聞稿回應當中的時候提出五點 這五點都很虛我只針對你們提到了一個桃竹苗大戲舞計畫你們有五項重大成果這邊我針對這五項重大成果 我就很認真的去看"},{"start":338.217,"end":354.754,"text":"包括所謂的太空產業推動計畫生衣育成生態系生成式AI應用與發展國道一號楊梅智頭份段拓寬還有桃園智新竹備援管線這五大成果可是我發現這五大成果都不是在"},{"start":357.057,"end":374.113,"text":"24年2月22號之後的都是以前就有的勒你知道嗎都是從2018年開始就有的計畫然後你跟我們說這是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的五個重要的一個卓越成效我們就很難理解這到底是什麼情況"},{"start":375.353,"end":398.746,"text":"所以針對這個部分的時候我們希望就是國發會這邊真的要扮演起重要的一個角色不要只是地方政府來詢問你就把文轉出去國發會它不是一個收發文的單位它不是一個只是收公文轉陳情的一個單位我們希望國發會是能夠真正解決問題的一個單位好不好所以我簡單回應一下"},{"start":400.368,"end":414.544,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說第一個我們從1月開過實體會議之後的話其實中間開過很多的工作會議因為實體會議我想我們應該在解決是一個比較大的一個議題而不是說很"},{"start":415.385,"end":430.526,"text":"很瑣碎的一些議題所以你講開很多會議是中央開很多會議還是跟地方這邊有做溝通開很多會不會 不會平不會開很多會嘛那我再想一個狀態中央跟地方的這樣一個協調平台你下次什麼時候要開你準備什麼時候要開"},{"start":432.108,"end":454.596,"text":"委員是不是可以讓我們先去釐清一下就是說從成立之後到現在我們目前收案的一些情況那我大概有看了一下那個案件其實裡面很多都是非常不需要我們就幾個首長去看理解 可是問題是四個首長桃竹竹苗的首長都反映出了一個狀態他們在溝通這相關的問題的時候沒有"},{"start":455.546,"end":470.468,"text":"一個統籌的一個窗口然後國發會這邊都叫他們自己去找原本的主管單位那這樣子的時候這個大計畫大細股這個桃菊貓大細股計畫它有什麼價值所以我們希望主委你剛上來我們希望你好好扮演這個角色然後"},{"start":472.093,"end":492.132,"text":"如果說在三個月內定期會有一個針對桃竹苗大細股計畫的一個追蹤跟一個績效的一個追蹤是不是有辦法我們現在正在思考怎麼樣讓這個平台運作更有效率那目前的想法是說是不是要有一個先有一個工作平台然後幾個專案然後之後再來"},{"start":492.893,"end":507.043,"text":"工作平台應該有了吧有有有有有啊是啊只是說有這個工作平台是感覺都沒有在動所以我特別提到了新竹市政府發文到國發會三個月之後回來叫他們繼續找中央組委單位然後地方"},{"start":507.924,"end":532.303,"text":"桃竹竹苗的行政所長表示這個平台會議九個月都沒有開他們有很多東西要做可是都不得其門而入溝通不順暢原本的溝通不順暢如果說還是找原本的一個主管機關的時候那國發會的價值就沒有了所以我特別要講說國發會它不是一個收發文的單位轉成情的單位它是一個要能夠協助跨部會真正解決問題的單位好不好好"},{"start":532.984,"end":551.33,"text":"那就是剛剛跟委員解釋就是說那個工作平台我想是比較成績比較低的就是在處理一些比較瑣碎的事情那等到這些等到那個案子需要再更高層來決定然後我們會往上送那一個工作平台不是理解齁那個最"},{"start":552.55,"end":568.939,"text":"針對新竹市的部分尤其是我們三月份發出來的這樣子的一個竹克X二期的擴大範圍的狀態的時候三個月就叫他們去找主管機關我想針對這個部分到底卡在哪裡你到時候好好地了解一下到時候再給本席辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明好不好來看怎麼樣解決問題"},{"start":570.199,"end":589.187,"text":"主席再給我30秒時間一下最後我這邊要問一個問題就是因為我們立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理師職調查委員會有個調查報告出來嘛他有特別提到了一個旋轉門條款的問題主委你知道這個事情喔知道就是我們國發基金的殖密還有之前的"},{"start":590.808,"end":612.461,"text":"副主委其實他們在很短的時間的時候就到了一個當時審議過的一個我們國發基金投資的一個單位去任職針對這個部分主委你有沒有什麼看法就副主委去轉任這個部分的話因為那個副主委是2018年就離職了那他是2024年才去所以3年5年的那個範圍他沒有這個問題"},{"start":613.682,"end":640.919,"text":"那執密的問題呢執密的這個問題其實我們有去問過全序部跟公共工程委員會那他對於旋轉門必須要規範的人員的話大致上跟我們講是說第一個除非你是目的事業主管機關或者是說你跟他有意見所以不是主管機關的時候你就覺得他沒有問題是不是目前法規上面來講的話我們沒有辦法去限制離職人員的一些工作的一個項目"},{"start":642.24,"end":659.928,"text":"這樣的話會侵犯到離子人員的公平性所以針對這部分有沒有需要再去調整的部分我想請教一下我們會思考就是說這個部分我們要怎麼樣來我這邊直接具體問一下我們國發基金的代理執密葉淑芳就是您本人嘛你現在在審很多不同的投資案對不對"},{"start":661.268,"end":683.192,"text":"你如果說現在他挑了一個他們現在國發基金要投資的一個大公司然後讓他順利國發基金去投了投了之後他現在離職進到這個公司裡面去主委你覺得這樣適合嗎如果按照你剛剛回答的方式我讓主委回答因為這是假設性的問題你可能也沒有那麼快離開所以說這是一個假設性的問題像這樣一個狀態的時候你覺得是適合嗎這樣觀感好嗎"},{"start":686.783,"end":686.803,"text":"好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時55分）謝謝主席。我想請一下國發會主委：葉俊顯主委。"],["主席：好，我們再請葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。我想先請教一下，因為地方創生計畫是國發會這邊在統籌辦理的嘛！我想請教一下，110年到114年的計畫總經費大概是多少錢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這部分我方便請幕僚……"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：還是？"],["鄭委員正鈐：您剛就職，所以有很多東西我們也希望您能夠趕快進入狀態當中。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是、是，進入狀況。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不要耽擱時間，我直接跟你講，大概有60億元。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：60億元。"],["鄭委員正鈐：有60億元。我想先請教一下，我們今年的執行金額是多少錢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：13億元左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：13億元，因為到去年底為止，目前我們的執行是35億元左右，今年要執行13億元，所以基本上這60億元是用不完的。那我想請教一下，過去這麼多年，我們從國發會的地方創生相關網站中去查詢，新竹市總共有幾件？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：新竹市我記得好像是5件……青培站有1件，然後辦公室好像有……青培站有2件……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，主委，你都還沒有進入狀況，我直接把我的問題丟給你，因為你第一次備詢，我也不太為難你，可是我希望你要把我們關心的問題，好好的去把它給釐清出來。新竹大概總共只有3件，108年到現在為止，大概只有3件，可是目前全國的案件非常非常的多，新竹市的案件非常非常的少，可是你說，因為新竹市比較都會，所以針對青年返鄉要創業的就業機會的這個東西沒有需求嗎？其實不是，新竹市有很多相關的創生團隊，包括在東門市場當中、包括在後站當中都有很多相關的創生團隊，可是基本上，他們都不在我們這樣的支持清單中，主委你知道是什麼原因嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：部分的原因是因為，新竹相對於其他的縣市是比較繁榮、就業比較好啦！"],["鄭委員正鈐：不是這樣子啦！主委，我就知道你會這樣簡單的回答，可是問題一定不是這麼簡單，因為你第一次備詢，我不想太為難你，我想你後續好好的去瞭解一下，為什麼會有這麼大的差距？新竹也許農村不多，可是舊城區很多，它符合整個創生的一些需求，所以我們希望主委針對這個部分，你回去好好的瞭解之後，再跟本席做一個很清楚的說明，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，有任何的案子過來，我們都會接受，我們都滿鼓勵的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，OK。接下來我要問下一個問題，因為你第一次備詢，所以我就把我們所關心的幾個問題直接跟你做一個質詢。桃竹苗大矽谷計畫還要不要往下做？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：當然要啊！"],["鄭委員正鈐：當然要，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：要。"],["鄭委員正鈐：當然要往下做嘛！為什麼我會這樣子問？因為從2024年2月22日行政院通過桃竹苗大矽谷計畫之後，也變成賴總統的政見，可是我們的溝通平臺上一次開會是什麼時候？主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：上一次開會？我記得，你是說實體嗎？"],["鄭委員正鈐：當然、當然、當然。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：那大概就是1月的時候吧！"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，1月20日是開會嘛！可是1月20日到現在已經9個月過去了，9個月過去了之後，所有的平臺都沒有開會，你說地方政府擔不擔心？地方政府非常非常的著急啊！你知道嗎？現在桃竹竹苗的地方首長本來就有一個相關的溝通平臺的會議，可是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫這個部分，中央跟地方的平臺溝通的會議竟然9個月都沒有召開，然後你知道嗎？今年3月份的時候，新竹市政府發了一個函去問國發會，針對392公頃竹科S2期範圍中的一個部分，要請行政院核定為國家重大建設，結果你知道情況怎麼樣？隔了3個月，國發會才回函新竹市政府，請新竹市政府向中央權責機關洽詢。3個月之後得到這樣的答案，所以我才會問你說，我們桃竹苗大矽谷計畫到底有沒有要繼續往前走？目前看起來是沒有啦！整個平臺的會議9個月沒有開，地方政府發函給國發會問問題，3個月之後詢答，推給中央主管機關，好像表示跟國發會都沒有關係。我這邊要特別講到一個點，國發會針對桃竹竹苗首長提出為什麼9個月沒有開平臺會議的時候，其實你們有做新聞稿的回應，在新聞稿的回應中提出五點，這五點都很虛。我只針對桃竹苗大矽谷計畫你們提出的五項重大成果，針對這五項重大成果，我很認真去看，包括所謂的太空產業推動計畫、生醫育成生態系、生成式AI應用與發展、國道一號楊梅至頭份段拓寬，還有桃園至新竹備援管線等五大成果，但是我發現這五大成果都不是在2024年2月22號之後的，都是以前就有的，你知道嗎？都是從2018年開始就有的計畫，然後你跟我們說這是桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的五個重要的卓越成效，我就很難理解這到底是什麼情況。針對這個部分，我希望國發會可以真的扮演起重要的角色，不要只是地方政府來文詢問，你就把文轉出去，我想國發會不是一個收發文的單位，它不是一個只是收公文、轉陳情的單位，我們希望國發會是能夠真正解決問題的單位，好不好？請簡單回應一下。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分跟委員報告，第一個，我們從1月開過實體會議之後，其實中間還開過很多工作會議，我們認為實體會議應該是要解決比較大的議題，而不是很瑣碎的一些議題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你說開過很多會議，那是中央開很多會議，還是跟地方溝通開很多會議？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是部會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部會開很多會，那我想請教你，中央跟地方這樣一個協調平臺，下次什麼時候要開會？你準備什麼時候開會？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員是不是可以讓我們先去釐清一下，就是從成立後到現在我們收案的情況？我大概看了一下那些案件，其實裡面很多都是非常不需要這幾個首長去開……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，問題是桃竹竹苗4個首長都反映出一個狀態，就是他們在溝通相關問題的時候，沒有一個統籌的窗口，國發會都叫他們自己去找原本的主管單位，這樣這個桃竹苗大矽谷計畫還有什麼價值？主委你剛上任，希望你可以好好扮演這個角色，若國發會3個月定期有一個針對桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的進度和績效追蹤，是不是有辦法？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們現在正在思考如何讓這個平臺運作更有效率，目前的想法是先要有一個工作平臺，然後幾個專案，之後再來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個工作平臺應該有了吧？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有、有、有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是啊！我要直說，雖然有工作平臺，但感覺沒有在動，所以我特別提到新竹市政府發文到國發會，3個月之後，回文叫他們自己找中央主管單位；桃竹竹苗地方行政首長也表示這個平臺的會議已經9個月沒有開，他們有很多事情要做卻都不得其門而入，溝通不順暢。原本就溝通不順暢，如果說還是要找原本的主管機關，那國發會就沒有存在價值了。我特別要強調，國發會不是一個收發文的單位、轉陳情的單位，它是一個要能夠協助跨部會真正解決問題的單位，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。剛剛跟委員解釋的，就是那個工作平臺層級比較低，比較是處理一些瑣碎的事情，等到案子需要更高層來決定的話，我們會往上送，所以那個工作平臺不是首長……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，主委，針對新竹市的部分，尤其我們3月份針對竹科S2期擴大範圍發文給國發會，結果3個月之後，國發會叫他們去找主管機關，針對這個部分，問題到底卡在哪裡？你好好了解一下，到時候再給本席辦公室一個清楚的說明，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：看要如何解決問題。主席，再給我30秒時間。","最後我要問一個問題，就是我們立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理失職調查委員會有個調查報告出來，特別提到了旋轉門條款的問題，主委知道這個事情嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：知道。"],["鄭委員正鈐：就是國發基金的執秘，還有之前的副主委，他們在很短的時間就到了一個當時國發會審議通過的國發基金投資的單位任職，針對這個部分，主委有沒有什麼看法？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就副主委轉任的部分，因為那個副主委在2018年就離職了，而他是2024年才……"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，符合3年、5年的規定，所以他沒有問題，執秘呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：執秘的問題，其實我們有詢問過銓敘部和公共工程委員會有關旋轉門規範的人員，他們大致上跟我們講的是，第一，除非是目的事業主管機關，或者你跟他有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以不是主管機關，你就覺得沒有問題，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：目前法規上來講，我們沒有辦法限制離職人員的一些工作項目，否則會侵犯到離職人員的工作權。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對這部分，有沒有需要再調整，我想請教一下……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們會思考將來針對這個部分，要怎麼樣……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我這邊就直接具體請問，國發基金代理執秘葉淑芳現在正審查很多不同的投資案，對不對？如果現在他挑了一個國發基金要投資的大公司，而國發基金也順利投資了，然後他現在離職進到這家公司，主委，你覺得這樣適合嗎？按照主委剛剛回答的方式……我讓主委回答，因為這是假設性的問題，執秘你可能也沒有那麼快離開，所以這是一個假設性的問題。像這樣的狀態，主委覺得合適嗎？觀感好嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們會評估這個狀況。"],["鄭委員正鈐：請主委儘速在兩週內給我一個具體回復，就是針對國發基金相關工作人員的旋轉門條款，你們要怎麼去做一個調整和修正，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在場。","接下來請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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有請全序部懷次長好 有請懷次長委員早次長早我想民進黨政府推動年金改革那為的是就在讓年金的制度永續的經營那保障年輕的公教人員在退休後都可以領到退休金那也確保每個世代年老時都能安穩無虞的生活"},{"start":35.695,"end":55.823,"text":"所以國民黨現在的這種反年改的行徑其實真的是反其道而行他會讓放任財務的缺口越來越大喔其實是真的負責任那我們來現在檢視一下現行的公教退府基金面臨什麼挑戰如果依照退府基金最新的第九次的精算報告"},{"start":56.903,"end":83.362,"text":"公務員退府基金破產的時間已經從2049年提前到2045年那教育人員的退府基金的破產時間也從2045提前到2042那為了彌補這個財務上的這個缺口所以我們現在還在積極投入預算來做撥補那當我們努力在搶救年金的同時那國民黨卻拼命製造年金的破口所以要請這個次長說明一下"},{"start":86.164,"end":113.103,"text":"國民黨今天的這樣子的反年改的這個惡法是不是會進一步加速年金的破產跟委員報告就是說如果說我們照目前的提案內容來看的話因為我們要停止調降嘛那停止調降事實上在未來因為我們原來是到118年嘛那我們預期本來到118年不管是公務員的部分或教室的部分大概還可以再回頭挹注基金大概2700多億"},{"start":114.804,"end":129.363,"text":"这个部分这个当然就会就没有那当然这个那因为你调降以后那不但没有进来那当然你这个就因为我们调降以后那就等于是说支出的部分要相对增加那当然对我们整个基金的那个财务的压力当然就会增加更多"},{"start":130.244,"end":150.438,"text":"那這個大概是一個那另外一個部分說如果你要再隨從限職人員待遇調整的話那這個部分就被造成說限職人員的待遇如果跟退休人員待遇太接近因為您也知道限職人員部分是繼續在工作那如果說我們這個太接近的話老實講人的本性一定想說那我如果差沒多少我幹嘛那麼辛苦還繼續工作"},{"start":150.998,"end":152.179,"text":"那如果真的要解決問題我想現在當然就是所謂的如何撥補這個年輕的缺口"},{"start":172.299,"end":196.725,"text":"那我們知道說現在的撥補策略分十年跟二十年那當然正在老師們的立場當然期待說國家採取十年的方案那能在更短的時間投入這個充分的資源不但也降低風險那促進這個基金的穩健也同時會對老師對基金比較有信心那國家其實必須付出的總預算員會比較少"},{"start":197.745,"end":222.197,"text":"那可是我看了一下明年度的預算行政院依照第九次精算報告是要分20年撥補的金額來編列那誠如剛剛本席所說的越快補足退伏基金的缺口那總額就會越少所以再請教次長說明一下明年度的預算還是採20年撥補的考量是什麼"},{"start":222.897,"end":239.137,"text":"那困難是什麼跟委員報告 事實上我們在112年由部裡面跟教育部我們有開過一個會議我們當然是希望20年撥補那在112年 希望20年撥補沒有沒有講錯 希望10年 抱歉抱歉這是我口誤 希望10年撥補"},{"start":240.018,"end":261.46,"text":"但是因為國家的預算編制權你也知道這是屬於行政院的權限那我們有提出這樣的一個想法那這個部分最終還是要由行政院跟主席總書這邊來做那我們在115年部分已經大概編列了大概218億的部分未來在預算審查的時候也敬請各位委員給我們支持以上報告"},{"start":262.401,"end":290.341,"text":"那我當然可以理解就是說我們中央政府有很多的政策事務需要很靈活的預算來運用可是本席還是強調採10年撥補這是對基金的永續當然也是對中央財政支出最有利的方案所以以後再來明年度的這個應該說下一個年度的預算編列的時候是不是再來努力來改採10年撥補的方式我們會繼續爭取我們都一直都有在爭取"},{"start":292.082,"end":311.209,"text":"提高撥補 謝謝好那我們談撥補那麼多喔其實如果這個修法通過的話其實還是一場空因為你之前二修才化法那從中央拿走4165億喔那當然這個我要請教次長這個你覺得對退伏基金的撥補的規劃有沒有影響"},{"start":312.998,"end":328.088,"text":"不好意思因為我並不是財政這方面預算的那個政府 想當然一定會有影響嘛因為整個中央政府的這個財政規劃那好那今天今天這樣子來來修法那我想某個程度啦"},{"start":328.328,"end":348.766,"text":"一定是全盤打亂了我們撥普的策略 就像你們在下一個年度要爭取十年撥普或許又因為財政整個狀況的這個雪上加霜的局面所以我想 這個還是要請次長再努力一下就是說下一個年度 既然明年已經二十年撥普的計畫那是不是在下一個年度往十年比較健全的體制去走"},{"start":349.737,"end":359.802,"text":"我們會繼續爭取 好 謝謝市長 那我現在主席 我現在先請人事副人事長 張張副人事長 謝謝好 請張副人事長我想談完退休人員的權利喔我要替在職老師說說話所以跟人事總處來探討一下軍公教員工待遇審議委員會欠缺受僱者參與會議代表的問題"},{"start":379.135,"end":404.756,"text":"就像是全國教師會他被排除在外被排除在這個軍公教員工待遇審議委員會那我們知道說其實這個薪資這個部分有僱主跟受僱者之間的溝通機制的完備會比起我們立法委員直接透過立法權來調升軍公教的薪資待遇會更符合所謂的憲政秩序也對國家長遠的發展會比較有幫忙"},{"start":406.818,"end":411.524,"text":"那軍公教的薪資2018年調薪3%2022年調薪4%2024年調薪4%2025年調薪3%這些都是實質薪資的增加那不只是最低薪資的調升我們很清楚喔 政府是有誠意來照顧軍公教人員"},{"start":426.361,"end":437.728,"text":"但因為調薪相關機制欠缺受僱者參與喔那這樣的好意就會被打折所以我覺得這個軍公教員工待遇這個調整的議題的座談會你在這個軍公教員工待遇審議委員會之前會辦一個調整的議題座談會"},{"start":448.055,"end":475.567,"text":"那這個也都被一般的教師團體認為說這個就是行李如意的年度大拜拜摸頭大會罷了啦所以我是不是詳情的詢問一下說是不是可以納入受僱者就像類似說教師就是全國教師會的代表那你公務人員可能就是公務協會的代表之類的來參加這個待遇審議委員會那如果不行的話那你再困難度在哪裡"},{"start":479.695,"end":501.964,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想這個議題就是朝野很多委員都在關心我們過去也都做了說明現在調新的機制是有制度化來做處理包括剛剛委員提到的在我們會有一個跟軍公教團體的相關的這個諮詢會議我們這些意見也都會在我們給這個"},{"start":507.866,"end":523.937,"text":"行政院的這個方案當中 會把這些意見通通如實的呈現 那個會議紀錄也都會在我們的官網上面 既然是如此的話 那為什麼就不讓他們進來 你說如果全國教師代表"},{"start":524.898,"end":548.301,"text":"你這個審議委員會 其實人很多所以 你多一個 兩個 三個代表其實都不能對於這個會議的決定有什麼樣的關鍵性的因素可是 他們就是有一起參與不用你之前再辦一個所謂做談會來諮詢就直接納入在這個審議委員會一起來討論嘛這個有很困難嗎"},{"start":549.994,"end":578.459,"text":"跟委員包括我們也是朝這個方向在努力所以我們這個法制方案其實就是把我們在職的這個基層的代表納入那現在是還在排審當中好 那請再努力啦這個某個程度讓收購者跟這個顧者有效的這個溝通才是我們未來最有利的方向啦 好不好OK 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"},{"start":579.043,"end":579.734,"text":"好,谢谢林委员。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時54分）謝謝主席。有請銓敘部懷次長。"],["主席：有請懷次長。"],["懷次長敍：委員早。"],["林委員宜瑾：次長早。","我想民進黨政府推動年金改革，為的是讓年金制度永續的經營，要保障年輕的公教人員在退休後都可以領到退休金，也確保每個世代年老時都能安穩無虞的生活。所以國民黨現在這種反年改的行徑真的是反其道而行，他會放任財務的缺口越來越大，其實真的不負責任。","我們現在先來檢視現行的公教退撫基金面臨什麼挑戰。若依照退撫基金最新的第九次精算報告，公務人員退撫基金破產的時間已經從2049年提前到2045年，教育人員退撫基金的破產時間也從2045年提前到2042年。為了彌補這個財務上的缺口，我們現在還在積極投入預算來作撥補。當我們在努力搶救年金的同時，國民黨卻拼命製造年金的破口！所以要請次長說明一下，國民黨今天這樣子反年改的惡法，是不是會進一步加速年金的破產？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，如果照目前的提案內容來看，因為我們要停止調降，而停止調降，事實上在未來，我們原來是預期到118年，不管是公務員或教師的部分，大概還可以再回頭挹注基金二千七百多億元，這個部分當然就沒有了。因為調降以後，不但沒有進來，等於支出部分要相對增加，對我們整個基金的財務壓力當然就會增加更多。這是一部分。","另外一個部分，如果要隨同現職人員待遇調整的話，就會造成現職人員的待遇跟退休人員待遇太接近。因為您也知道，現職人員是繼續在工作，如果待遇太接近，老實講，人的本性一定想如果差沒多少，我幹嘛那麼辛苦還繼續工作，這會引起早退的情況。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然、當然，沒錯！"],["懷次長敍：事實上，目前我所知道的，其實包括中國大陸也希望延後退休，整個趨勢是不太一樣的。以上簡單報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：如果真的要解決問題，我想現在當然就是所謂如何撥補年金的缺口。我們知道現在的撥補策略分10年跟20年，站在老師們的立場，當然期待國家採取10年的方案，能在更短的時間投入充分的資源，不但降低風險、促進基金的穩健，同時老師也會對基金比較有信心，國家其實必須付出的總預算也會比較少。可是我看了一下明年度的預算，行政院依照第九次精算報告，是要分20年的撥補金額來編列。誠如剛剛本席所說的，越快補足退撫基金的缺口，總額就會越少。所以再請次長說明，明年度的預算還是採20年撥補的考量是什麼？困難是什麼？"],["懷次長敍：跟委員報告，事實上我們在112年，部裡面跟教育部有開過一個會，我們當然希望20年撥補啦……"],["林委員宜瑾：希望20年撥補？"],["懷次長敍：不對，講錯了，希望10年，抱歉、抱歉，是我口誤，是希望10年撥補，但是因為國家的預算編制權，您也知道這是屬於行政院的權限，我們有提出這樣的想法，但這個部分最終還是要由行政院跟主計總處來做。我們在115年已經編列了大概218億元，未來在預算審查的時候，也敬請各位委員給我們支持。以上報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：我當然可以理解啦，中央政府有很多的政策事務需要很靈活的預算來運用，可是本席還是強調，採10年撥補，這是對基金的永續、當然也是對中央財政支出最有利的方案。再來明年度，應該說下一個年度預算編列的時候是不是再來努力改採10年撥補的方式？"],["懷次長敍：謝謝委員指導，我們會繼續爭取，我們一直都有在爭取，希望提高撥補。謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。我們談撥補那麼多，如果這個修法通過的話，其實還是一場空！因為之前惡修財劃法，從中央拿走4,165億元，我要請教次長，你覺得這個對退撫基金撥補的規劃有沒有影響？"],["懷次長敍：不好意思，因為我並不是負責財政、預算的事務。"],["林委員宜瑾：想當然耳一定會有影響嘛，整個中央政府的財政規劃。今天這樣子來修法，我想某個程度一定是全盤打亂了撥補策略，就像你再來下個年度要爭取10年撥補，或許會因為整個財政狀況雪上加霜的局面，所以還是要請次長再努力一下，就是說下一個年度，既然明年已經有20年撥補的計畫，是不是在下個年度往10年比較健全的體制去走？"],["懷次長敍：會，我們會繼續爭取，謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝次長。","主席，我現在先請張副人事長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請張副人事長。"],["林委員宜瑾：談完退休人員的權利，我要替在職的老師說說話，所以跟人事總處來探討一下軍公教員工待遇審議委員會欠缺受僱者參與會議代表的問題，就像是全國教師會，它被排除在外、被排除在軍公教員工待遇審議委員會。我們知道其實薪資這個部分，雇主跟受僱者之間溝通機制的完備，比起立法委員直接透過立法權調升軍公教的薪資待遇會更符合所謂的憲政秩序，也對國家長遠的發展會比較有幫忙。軍公教的薪資2018年調薪3%，2022年調薪4%，2024年調薪4%，2025年調薪3%，這些都是實質薪資的增加。","不只是最低薪資的調升，我們很清楚，政府是有誠意來照顧軍公教人員，但因為調薪相關機制欠缺受僱者參與，這樣的好意就會被打折。有關軍公教員工待遇調整議題的座談會，你在軍公教員工待遇審議委員會之前，會辦一個調整的議題座談會，這個也都被一般的教師團體認為說就是行禮如儀的年度大拜拜、摸頭大會罷了，所以我跟你詢問一下，是不是可以納入受僱者，類似教師就是全國教師會的代表，公務人員可能就是公務協會代表之類的來參加這個待遇審議委員會？如果不行的話，你到底困難度在哪裡？"],["張副人事長秋元：謝謝委員的關心，我想這個議題朝野很多委員都在關心，我們過去也都做了說明，現在調薪的機制是有制度化來處理，包括剛剛委員提到的，我們會有一個跟軍公教團體相關的諮詢會議，這些意見也都會在我們給行政院的方案當中通通如實的呈現，會議紀錄也都會在我們的官網上面公開。"],["林委員宜瑾：了解，既然是如此，為什麼就不讓他們進來？你說如果是全國教師代表，這個審議委員會其實人很多，所以你多一個、兩個、三個代表其實都不能對於這個會議的決定有什麼樣的關鍵性因素，可是他們就是有一起參與，你不用之前再辦一個什麼座談會來諮詢，就直接納入在這個審議委員會一起來討論嘛，這有很困難嗎？"],["張副人事長秋元：跟委員報告，我們也是朝這個方向在努力，所以我們的法制化方案其實就是把在職的基層代表納入，現在還在排審當中。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，好，那請再努力，某個程度讓受僱者跟僱者有效的溝通才是未來最有利的方向，好不好？OK！謝謝、謝謝主席。"],["張副人事長秋元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員。我們先休息5分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：好，現在繼續開會。","接下來請張雅琳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164404","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b382cd07aab1d6463720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d23d75864859a57f935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:55:01 - 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部長我今天想要針對就是這個廢棄物亂到的這種狀況來跟部長做一個討論就以彰化這邊為例彰化這個北有大渡溪南有濁水溪那中間還有貫穿著舊濁水溪然後還有楊子戳溪原大排那其實這幾個這個大排或者是"},{"start":38.672,"end":52.359,"text":"這個溪有的都會比較偏就是會比較偏人煙比較稀少的地方可能一般的人可能不會到達的一個地方然後有一些地方是這樣子那這些地方也會成為廢棄物亂到的一個很"},{"start":55.956,"end":83.383,"text":"可能是廢棄物亂到的一個天堂所以我們一直希望就是說這些可能比較偏遠的比較人煙比較稀少的這些地方也許可能要用一些比較科技的方式來執法那不可能說都靠著什麼這個河川的巡守員去巡邏我覺得這個可能會有一些困難所以在這幾年當中我們看到就是除了這個"},{"start":84.663,"end":105.801,"text":"第三河川分署第四河川分署還有彰化縣政府以及農田這個農水署其實他們都有這個巡守隊那針對這些河去做一些巡邏那也看到就是說在這一年當中這幾次當中就也這個"},{"start":107.422,"end":135.688,"text":"出動了1800次的這個巡查那也這個清除總共27公噸的垃圾那這些地點有的甚至除了垃圾一般的家務垃圾之外還有一般的大型家具的垃圾所以我在這邊想要請教部長就是說除了彰化有這樣的一個狀況我相信全國各地比較人煙稀少的這個不論是河川或者是山谷"},{"start":136.808,"end":156.422,"text":"也是很多這樣的重狀況也真的非常多一般的民眾不太會到達或者是人煙比較稀少的地方有時候山谷就是一堆垃圾所以我想請教部長針對這樣的一個狀況我們有沒有可能在這些可能垃圾"},{"start":157.082,"end":165.16,"text":"可能會被亂到垃圾的這些地點可能加裝監視器或者是用什麼樣的方式能夠杜絕亂到垃圾或者是亂丟垃圾"},{"start":168.021,"end":187.61,"text":"包委我們這邊是處理是比較大型的例如說營建剩餘土石房或營建廢棄物這個是大型需要一個車輛那我們現在是有一套的一個方案包含了監視器各方面然後用GPS不過委員你這邊這個是稍微小一點點我們會跟彰化環保局一起來討論"},{"start":188.81,"end":217.279,"text":"我也希望就是說不論是我們的這個營建廢棄物或者是其他的這種垃圾可能是這種失業廢棄物或者是那種工廠生產出來的垃圾其實這個環保環境部這邊管那其實有很多像這種大型垃圾在地方也是層出不窮所以我希望就是說環境部跟地方政府應該要去想一套方法可能更容易來稽查或者是更容易把這些"},{"start":218.68,"end":236.455,"text":"熱點可能這個容易被亂倒垃圾的這些熱點可能要加裝一些這個監視器或是什麼樣的方式能夠來杜絕另外我想請教就是說部長在也是在彰化地區在前陣子就是"},{"start":237.556,"end":254.704,"text":"有人就是把這個營建的廢棄物就丟到我們彰化的這個惡靈中科園區他是一個科學園區然後垃圾就直接這個營建的這個廢棄物就直接倒到那邊去所以我希望就是說其實"},{"start":256.272,"end":284.878,"text":"雖然我們在那個載運的這個貨車或者是那種卡車可能你們都有GPS那可能就是說上有上有政策下有對策也許他是用什麼樣的方式把這些這個營建廢棄物亂丟亂盜所以我希望就是說部長針對這部分我覺得應該還要有更精進的方式來杜絕另外他這個犯罪的手法他是用偽造土石方的證明"},{"start":286.098,"end":310.727,"text":"偽造土石方的證明然後去取得這個可能他裡面有管理員是因為這樣然後取得信任然後就進去裡面亂盜這個也是一個方式所以我希望就是說部長針對這一部分未來如果還有亂盜這個營建廢棄物或者是一般的失業廢棄物或者是一般的這種垃圾我覺得應該要有這個嚴懲或者是重罰"},{"start":312.815,"end":338.192,"text":"對 謝謝委員這個案例我們有注意到現在就是委員你說的嚴懲重罰我們現在是未來會有一個智慧維理的計畫等於是除了GPS之外車牌在每個路口我們都可以掌握這個訊息所以我們會運用AI的方法來解決事實上這個的問題在於是說廢棄物如何去化現在我們的確我們跟內政部合作也在盤點這樣的一個機會因為這個其實"},{"start":341.074,"end":360.991,"text":"這個是台灣幾十年來都從來沒有人去解決這個問題但是我們也重視到這再不處理已經會變成是一個很大的環境的一個議題所以我們有認真有面對來處理這個事但是我也必須跟委員坦承這個道高一尺 魔高一丈他們在進化當中在進化當中 那你們應該要"},{"start":361.932,"end":382.219,"text":"比他更早一步去想到要怎麼去解決這個問題例如說像有一些地方不是只有高雄有台北也有挖下去全部都是廢棄物的也都有所以我們現在的確是更重視到這一個環節所以委員再給我們一點時間其實我們已經有一個跨部會的平台就是來處理這個事情"},{"start":382.959,"end":410.396,"text":"這一件其實因為是即時有去抓到才不會造成可能也許下一手的這個廠商他如果要進駐之後他一挖可能底下全部都是這種營建廢棄物那這個廠商他會很倒楣要去清理這些這些廢棄物所以我覺得就是說應該我們還要有一個比較更精進的方式怎麼樣去解決這些營建廢棄物那剛剛部長有特別提到就是我們未來會有"},{"start":411.456,"end":433.51,"text":"現在已經有跨部會現在有跨部會的跨部會然後我們在修改法令廢清法自在法都要修正然後這個所謂的廢棄物的量能可以去化甚至有人可以把這個所謂的這個營建廢棄物或土石方鼓勵成立這個土地銀行等等土質銀行等等能夠做好一個內循環來做處理就是說不要"},{"start":434.19,"end":454.022,"text":"什麼東西都是廢棄物來看待現在的情況像這個就是倒一車可能就一兩萬塊所以一頓就一兩萬塊有利可圖所以大家都喜歡幹這種事情貪小便宜那我們就希望可以改變這個生態部長接下來我想請教就是說因為彰化這邊也有很多就是農業的廢棄物"},{"start":456.623,"end":471.901,"text":"除了農模之外也有一些葡萄藤或者是一些樹枝這種都算是比較農業的廢棄物當然就是說我們怎麼樣讓這些我們認為就是說可以再利用的可以再利用的"},{"start":472.741,"end":490.848,"text":"譬如說有的樹枝它就可以成為木炭或者是它還可以成為農地上有用的肥料類似這樣的一個狀況我希望就是說未來可能還要再加強力道怎麼樣讓這些農業的廢棄物能夠"},{"start":495.129,"end":512.382,"text":"可以推廣然後可以再利用我覺得這應該還要再去努力因為尤其是農磨的這個部分因為我也提到好幾次因為農磨確實是一個非常麻煩的一件事情你用完之後上面的土其實你要把它清掉其實還是有困難"},{"start":513.283,"end":528.116,"text":"那這個要怎麼樣去解決那另外就是說我們現在碰到這個花蓮光復香這些泥土沙可能混合著一些廢棄物那你怎麼樣我覺得這個土也許"},{"start":529.517,"end":548.333,"text":"感覺好像是還蠻肥沃的這種土那這種土是不是未來還可以怎麼樣再利用那就是說這些土它裡面夾雜的一些垃圾你怎麼樣去把它清掉然後讓它變成真的就是土或者是泥或者是沙所以我不知道說部長針對這一部分你們要怎麼去處理"},{"start":549.233,"end":568.984,"text":"謝謝委員提到這個彰化因為彰化除了這個葡萄藤之外還有這種稻米的稻梗其實就我們來看的話應該都是資源物所以我記得我也跟農業部陳部長有談過說我們是不是有一些輔導一些榻榻米的公司因為榻榻米用稻梗來做其實是蠻合適的"},{"start":569.984,"end":593.132,"text":"把這個規模經濟把它做出來的確我們是在想這個事委員提到葡萄藤是蠻好的我們會加大力道也希望能夠去了解說它可以怎麼樣再利用這個就是循環經濟至於花蓮那個部分其實它的現在最新的資料是30萬噸我們預估會到100萬噸目前的確是要把它分類然後進行各種各樣的一個運用"},{"start":594.632,"end":609.48,"text":"現在是正在進行當中因為我們現在還在救災所以我們現在有一套想法希望能夠把它做資源再分類不過這個真的也要一些特別的預算來去做處理我們希望明年可以來開始進行這個工作我們也會全力支持就是說"},{"start":610.36,"end":634.439,"text":"未來這個真的也是一個蠻大的工程我看起來應該是一個蠻大的工程所以我們希望就是說環境部真的在這個環境上面可能還要再加強力道就是說尤其是對於這個農業上的這些我們認為可以再利用的可以拜託再跟農業部這邊再合作然後再加強力道去宣傳好 謝謝委員 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針對發生疑似這樣因為他這件事情他並沒有跟我們本部查詢他也沒有跟個人來做一個比較做一個查證那我們知道之後 我們掌握之後我們已經開始完成了一個正式的立案來做調查"},{"start":78.061,"end":96.376,"text":"那我们以日本的这个物网物众的情形那如果查证到有涉及不法或是失职部分我们会按规定来做一个处分那目前就这个加密软体有没有使用加密软体来去沟通还是使用一般民间的厂商的这种像LINE这样子这个应该有掌握吧"},{"start":98.037,"end":118.851,"text":"目前我還在做進一步的釐清看他用在公務群組裡面用了一些資料是不是屬於四色到機敏之類的那如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分我們會按規定來做一個調查應該是這麼講好了就是說只要是公務那就是理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體在傳遞這些訊息嗎"},{"start":121.915,"end":136.023,"text":"只要試射到機敏類應該說只要試射到公務就不行了嘛公務的話大概如果說行政術士這有一定的行政術士是可以的但是如果試射機敏的話那就不行所以這個部分你們還在調查當中"},{"start":138.244,"end":162.937,"text":"我在之前在這個質詢國安局的時候還有其實不只國安局那包含其他各個跨部會的部門我就一直在提到說異常狀況的回報指南這個東西我們是希望趕快來去建置那這是要跨部會去建置因為我現在發覺到一件事情只要大家遇到異常的狀況他們第一回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官可能通常都是新聞媒體"},{"start":163.917,"end":189.628,"text":"那這樣就不對了吧 理論上是第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引而且是可以被信任 被官兵信任的這樣他們才知道說我們如果上報上去的話才不會被大事化小因為這種 其實這些不是所謂的小事欸他們可能會 如果是上報到自己的這個上層的單位的話甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣所以他們有這樣的擔心才會去找外面的媒體嘛"},{"start":190.228,"end":217.012,"text":"所以 異常的狀況 它要有一個回報的機制那回報的機制你們必須要有反應那才不會讓說 像這種類似甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中上面用言語上面的這種霸凌的狀況都出現我覺得這樣是不太好的可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢想請教一下 副參謀總長有沒有什麼樣的建議或者是說你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引那他們要回報的單位是什麼"},{"start":217.731,"end":235.118,"text":"是報告委員實際上每天有關於資安或者保防上面的這個安全的情況各單位我們保安部本部還有國防部的相關單位還有各基層單位在執行任務的時候如果有所發現實際上國防部每天都有相關的這個監測跟報告"},{"start":237.719,"end":243.303,"text":"那也有基層官兵發現異常的時候主動回報反映上來的或者循系統被我們自己查查發現也回報上來的也會做相關的處置不過有一部分是通常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的這個私德或者是機敏的資訊所以說我們會先完成相關的調查之後如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦如果是涉及部內管理的我們會對單位或者是個人"},{"start":267.119,"end":282.092,"text":"做一個這個相關的立案調查那至於有時候會在媒體上出現那當然是有部分官兵會尋向外這個爆料的管道或者是他有別的這個用心或企圖那這一部分我們這個是"},{"start":283.613,"end":290.922,"text":"民主的社會裡頭我們有關於媒體的這部分我們也只能尊重但是跟委員報告的確我們是有內部XX跟申書的管道也在運作也發現不少暗面"},{"start":297.509,"end":320.049,"text":"異常事件的這個通報的這些指引我覺得要是有還是要有那我剛才為什麼講這麼多其實為什麼他們會想要媒體介入可能有兩種情況第一個可能是你要說你剛才有講的第一個可能是另有目的可是另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法來去做完整的去處置甚至是就不處置所以他們有這樣的擔心所以今天這個特別來提一下"},{"start":321.07,"end":340.243,"text":"那我們現在來談一下這個作戰圖像關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域的周邊的水文資訊潛艦要發揮戰力的話那我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握台灣這個周邊的海域的這一種水文資料那目前國科會有四艘海洋研究船"},{"start":340.723,"end":355.167,"text":"那國家海洋研究院是預計在2026年完成三艘這個海洋研究調查船的建置這些單位的水文圖資是會跟國防部或者是海軍來去做一些資訊共享嗎這些資訊是有幫助的嗎請海軍參謀長回答"},{"start":358.977,"end":382.528,"text":"委員好 跟委員報告針對我們台灣是個海島國家所以我們周邊的重要的海上的交通線跟海域我們都是目前的話就是跟海巡的國科還有跟國家的海洋機制還有我們本身的我們大氣海洋局都是有共同做一些共同的海底的勘探跟情勢分享這個是有做的 是的"},{"start":383.709,"end":413.02,"text":"因为我刚刚看到这个这个调查船有些是做环境研究那国科院的调查船是做海洋科学研究那目前我们海军好像有一个叫做达官号那它是叫做海洋测量舰那目前是一艘那你们会不会觉得有必要再提升这个相关的这些测量能力再多去建造或者是去更多的其他租用或者是有其他方式来去增强这方面的监测能力"},{"start":414.323,"end":433.565,"text":"報告委員 我想委員之前也關心過這個問題過那我們除了現在達官軍艦之外我們針對後面的潛艦的一個救難艦我們也在他的潛艦救難上面我們也同時間也賦予他一些海洋收集跟海洋資料的一個處理的一個平台"},{"start":434.165,"end":458.023,"text":"所以以後應該不會只有達根縣後面在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料跟相關的一個水文資料的中整跟建置後面會比較一個完整的做好因為除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力徵收的能力還有測量的能力我想這些都是環環相扣的那未來如果有需要我們希望有提出來把這些資訊來做更完整"},{"start":458.723,"end":472.871,"text":"那之前有提到我之前有提到這個美國海軍新聞他有報導說中國的人這個海軍他在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型的無人潛航載具那好像說是有40到42公尺"},{"start":474.614,"end":497.72,"text":"無人載具這個部分 特別是無人潛艦就我們所知 中科院是2019年有跟民間廠商有進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫目前的說法 我們未來是用軍民通用科技並非是新式的武器我是想請教一下 面對中國這麼多有UUV等等"},{"start":498.2,"end":523.347,"text":"不同的這種新的無人載具它的新的挑戰出現那我們台船一方面要專精在我們有人潛艦上面那未來我們有沒有足夠的生產的生產線因為你都要排成嘛就是你生產能力可能就是只有這麼多那你要把你的這個關鍵的這個你的priority是什麼想請教一下未來對無人載具你們的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":524.934,"end":547.49,"text":"有一部分我們是由中科院在協助進行我這邊請院長來做個答覆我大概把委員剛剛的問題做一個簡單的答覆就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫它也實際上產出了一艘水下無人載具那當時它的整個建造不是台船建造是其他造船廠來建造的"},{"start":548.154,"end":561.857,"text":"那未來我們也有相關的一些科研計畫我們還會繼續去投資在我們國內的造船業界當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫也就是跟我們的學術界來共同合作包含跟國海院的合作"},{"start":562.705,"end":584.938,"text":"好 謝謝因為不管是這個在水下的或者是在水上的無人潛艦無人潛艦或者是無人的水面艦那我想中國已經是有花很多的心力在去做了那我們自己可能也要思考一下怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式達到我們最大的作戰目的所以最後請容我再問一個問題關於這一個我們的TDOM的事情"},{"start":586.038,"end":608.124,"text":"想請教一下 因為我們現在要面臨的是中國的一個非常大的資源它的設備 它的資源 它的彈藥 它的這些全面性的覆蓋怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的 而且是最有性價比的去做防空或者是做對台灣的防衛這個部分我可能要請教一下副參謀長"},{"start":609.784,"end":625.889,"text":"哪些方式是比較符合就是性價比的就是說我們當然是可以去學以色列那以色列可能現在又要走向這個雷射武器做一個防空的方式就是又再進展一個那但是哪樣的性價比是最高的目前有沒有"},{"start":626.949,"end":641.998,"text":"相關的規劃報告委員這個有關總統宣示我們要開始推動這個台灣之盾就踢動了這部分實際上空軍還有國防部這邊已經開始做相關的規劃主要的就是"},{"start":643.479,"end":673.199,"text":"有一部分的原因就是您刚才提到的性价比的部分因为因应对方对我们的来自空中的威胁已经非常的多样化有些的确是对方用不对称的方式有些成本比较低的可是却可以对我们造成相当大的威胁我们要考虑到我们自己资源的耗用所以说在T-DOM的计划里头有很大一部分是要进行各项防空系"},{"start":673.519,"end":687.733,"text":"的整合運用也就是說當它對我們發動攻擊的時候我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種然後對到什麼區域那我們可以用哪一種的防衛武器能發揮最大的效益"},{"start":689.571,"end":711.461,"text":"副總長,我來簡單的做一個總結啦,因為有一些民眾可能擔心說這個TDO可能會消耗非常大的這個軍購或者是非常大的這個軍費但是其實按照我們軍方的解釋,他是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式來加強我國的整體防空能力"},{"start":711.741,"end":734.454,"text":"我这样的解读是不是正确是的这是有很大一部分是这一部分那所以说我们不是以弹不是用防空飞弹换他们的飞弹因为这样子就没有所谓的这个不对称而已而是可以综合我们所有的能力看怎么样是用最有性价比的方式还是能够防空我这样的理解是的也是这样跟我们说明的话我认为这样会得到更多的支持好不好是谢谢谢伟"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時48分）我們請副參謀總長跟常務次長。"],["主席：請副總長、參謀長。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：副參謀總長，想請教一下，因為今天早上有一個比較重大的新聞，就是關於上校局長涉嫌竊密，還有包含他有一些違法的連環報，這在新聞媒體上面有出現。我比較關切的是，他好像是使用未加密的軟體LINE，直接去指示他的下屬，有沒有這件事情？新聞所報導的事情，目前已經掌握到什麼樣的程度？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，這部分海軍那邊已經開始進行相關的行政調查，細節的部分，我請海軍參謀長給您做個報告。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。針對發生疑似這樣的事情，因為這件事情，他並沒有跟我們本部查詢，他也沒有跟個人查證，我們知道、掌握之後，我們已經完成正式的立案調查。我們本著勿枉勿縱的情形，如果查證到有涉及不法或是失職部分，我們會按規定處分。"],["陳委員冠廷：目前我就針對有沒有使用加密軟體去溝通，還是使用一般民間廠商像LINE這樣子的軟體，這個應該有掌握吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，目前我們還在做進一步的釐清，看他在公務群組裡面用的一些資料是不是事涉到機敏之類的。如果是在公務群組使用這些不合宜的部分，我們會按規定調查及處分。"],["陳委員冠廷：參謀長，應該這麼講好了，只要是公務，理論上是不可以用民間的手機跟民間的軟體傳遞這些訊息嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：只要事涉到機敏類的就不可以。"],["陳委員冠廷：應該說只要事涉到公務就不行了嘛，對嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：公務的話，如果是行政庶事，這有一定的規定……"],["陳委員冠廷：行政庶事是可以的。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是如果事涉機敏的話那就不行，所以這個部分你們還在調查當中？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。我之前質詢國安局的時候，其實不只國安局，包含其他各個跨部會的部門，我就一直提到異常狀況的回報指南，這個東西我們是希望趕快建置，這是要跨部會去建置。","因為我現在發覺到一件事情，只要大家遇到異常的狀況，他們第一時間回報的對象不是我們國防部的長官，通常可能都是新聞媒體，這樣就不對了吧？理論上，第一時間必須要有一個內部的指引，而且是可以被官兵信任的，這樣他們才知道，他們如果上報上去的話，不會被大事化小。其實這些不是所謂的小事，如果是上報到自己上層的單位的話，甚至可能會直接把它變成像沒事一樣，他們有這樣的擔心，才會去找外面的媒體。","所以異常的狀況要有一個回報機制，回報機制你們必須要有反應，才不會有像這種類似的狀況，甚至說裡面還有涉及軍中內用言語霸凌這種狀況出現，我覺得這樣是不太好的，可是為什麼還是會頻頻出現呢？想請教一下副參謀總長，有沒有什麼樣的建議？或者是你們現在到底有沒有這種異常狀況回報的指引、他們要回報的單位是什麼？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，實際上，每天有關於資安或者保防上安全的情況，各單位包括部本部、國防部裡頭相關單位，還有各基層單位，在執行任務的時候，如果有所發現，事實上，國防部每天都有相關的監測跟報告，也有基層官兵發現異常的時候，主動回報、反映上來的，或者循系統被我們自己查察發現回報上來的，也會做相關的處置。","不過有一部分，常常這些都牽扯到不管是個人的私德，或者是機敏的資訊，所以我們先完成相關的調查之後，如果有涉及不法就會移送法辦。如果是涉及部內管理的，我們會對單位或者是個人做相關的立案調查，至於有時候會在媒體上出現，當然是有部分官兵會循向外爆料的管道，或者是他有別的用心或企圖。這一部分，因為我們是民主的社會，有關於媒體的部分，我們也只能尊重，但是跟委員報告，的確我們是有內部查察跟申訴的管道，這都有在運作，我們也發現了不少案例。"],["陳委員冠廷：遇到異常事件通報的這些指引，我覺得還是要有啦！我剛才為什麼講這麼多？為什麼他們會想要媒體介入？可能有兩種情況：第一個，可能是你剛剛有講的，另有目的；另外一種就是他們認為向上舉報也沒有辦法去做完整的處置，甚至就不處置。他們有這樣的擔心，所以今天特別來提一下。","我們現在來談一下關於海底的作戰圖像等等海域周邊的水文資訊，潛艦要發揮戰力的話，我覺得最重要就是我們有沒有辦法掌握臺灣周邊海域的水文資料。目前國科會有4艘海洋研究船，而國家海洋研究院預計在2026年完成3艘海洋研究調查船的建置，這些單位的水文圖資會跟國防部或者是海軍去做一些資訊共享嘛！這些資訊是有幫助的嗎？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：我請海軍參謀長回答。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。跟委員報告，臺灣是個海島國家，所以我們周邊重要海上的交通線跟海域，我們目前都是跟海巡、國科會、國家的海洋智庫，還有我們本身大氣海洋局共同做一些海底探勘及情資分享，這是有做的。"],["陳委員冠廷：都有共同分享。因為我剛剛看到調查船有些是做環境研究，國海院的調查船是做海洋科學研究，目前你們海軍好像有一艘軍艦叫做達觀號？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：它是叫做海洋測量艦，目前是一艘？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：你們會不會覺得有必要再提升相關的這些測量能力，再多去建造，或者更多其他租用，或者是有其他方式去增強這方面的監測能力？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，委員之前也關心過這個問題。我們除了現在達觀軍艦之外，針對後面救難艦的潛艦，也在潛艦救難上，我們也同時間賦予它一些海洋蒐集跟海洋資料處理的平臺，所以以後應該不會只有達觀艦，在整個水域跟整個海洋的環境調查資料及相關水文資料的綜整跟建置，後續會有比較完整的作法。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。除了我們要具備戰鬥的能力，偵蒐的能力，還有測量的能力，我想這些都是環環相扣的，未來如果有需要，我們希望能提出來，把這些資訊做得更完整。我之前有提到美國海軍新聞有報導，中國的海軍在他們海南島附近有測試兩艘前所未見的巨型無人潛航載具，好像有40到42公尺長。針對無人載具的部分，特別是無人潛艦，就我所知，中科院在2019年有跟民間廠商進行一些水下無人載具的科研計畫，目前的說法是我們未來是軍民通用科技，並非新式的武器。","我想請教一下，面對中國擁有這麼多UUV等等不同的新無人載具，新的挑戰出現，我們台船一方面要專精在有人潛艦上面，未來我們有沒有足夠的生產線？因為你都要排程嘛！生產能力可能就只有這麼多，你關鍵的priority是什麼？想請教一下，未來對無人載具，你們的規劃是怎麼樣？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：有一部分是由中科院協助進行，我請院長做個答復。"],["李院長世強：我大概把委員剛剛的問題做個簡單的答復。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["李院長世強：就我們之前做的水下無人載具的科研計畫，實際上，產出了一艘水下無人載具，當時它的整個建造不是台船建造的，而是其他造船廠來建造的。未來我們有相關的一些科研計畫，我們還會繼續投資在國內的造船業界，當然這些都必須要跟我們的科研計畫、跟學術界共同合作，包含跟國海院的合作。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。因為不管是在水下的無人潛艦，或者是在水上的無人水面艦，我想中國已經有花很多的心力在做了，我們自己可能也要思考一下，怎麼樣才能夠用最不對稱的方式，達到我們最大的作戰目的。","最後請容我再問一個問題，關於T-Dome的事情，想請教一下，因為我們現在要面臨的中國，是一個資源非常大的國家，它的設備、資源、彈藥，這些全面性的覆蓋，怎麼樣才能夠最有效率的，而且是最有性價比的去做防空，或者是做臺灣的防衛？針對這個部分，我可能要請教一下副參謀總長，哪些方式是比較符合性價比的？我們當然是可以去學以色列，以色列可能現在又要走向用雷射武器做防空的方式，就是又再進展一個階段，但是哪樣的性價比是最高的，目前有沒有相關的規劃？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，有關總統宣示我們要開始推動臺灣之盾（T-Dome），實際上，國防部還有空軍已經開始在做相關的規劃，主要就是有一部分的原因是您剛才提到的性價比。因應對方對我們來自空中的威脅已經非常多樣化，有些的確是對方用不對稱的方式、有些成本比較低的，卻可以對我們造成相當大的威脅。我們要考慮到我們自己資源的耗用，所以在這T-Dome的計畫裡，有很大一部分是要進行各項防空系統的整合運用，也就是當他對我們發動攻擊的時候，我們可以辨識出來它是哪一種彈種，對到什麼區域，我們可以用哪一種防衛武器發揮最大的效益。"],["陳委員冠廷：副總長，我簡單的做個總結，因為有一些民眾擔心這T-Dome可能會消耗非常大的軍購，或者是非常大的軍費。但是，其實按照你們軍方的解釋，它是把所有的系統整合做最有效率跟性價比的方式，來加強我國整體的防空能力，我這樣的解讀是不是正確？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是的，有很大一部分是這部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們不是用防空飛彈換他們的飛彈，因為這樣就沒有所謂的不對稱，而是可以綜合我們所有的能力，看怎麼樣用最有性價比的方式還是能夠防空。我這樣的理解……"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是的，委員，您……"],["陳委員冠廷：這樣跟國民說明的話，我認為會得到更多的支持，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"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部長好部長我們現在討論一下就是我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階這個部份部長您支持嗎包委員其實因為那個環評在我們的這個執法裡面就有定義的"},{"start":32.308,"end":56.526,"text":"我們有一個執法那如果拉到那個母法去改我怕是說因為其實與時俱進我們每年都會發現出新的東西大家遺漏的都會加進去那如果是行政機關能夠來訂定在我們執法裡面訂會比較快因為如果說這次如果大約要修訂到母法提上去不是比較好嗎提上去之後其實因為我們現在所有的項目都在執法裡面"},{"start":58.307,"end":86.215,"text":"對 等於是會欠缺了一些彈性你的彈性是要用來幹嘛的其實是因為我舉例例如說委員我最近的碳補桌跟風存存在地底下那種以前是沒有不用還平也不知道怎麼去訂的那我們現在發現了這個需要還平所以我們就會想要把它列進去所以我們每年都會定期的修正在我們執法下面我覺得母法 母法的部分你還是要把它寫清楚讓底下執法比較好執法如果說有需要調整我們再調整不是嗎"},{"start":88.676,"end":103.225,"text":"報告委員我們母法裡頭是訂就說我們有權責可以去訂認定標準那我們認定標準滾動的檢討隨時發現有新的該加進去或者說舊的訂的不好必須要再加強的話我們隨時可以"},{"start":103.425,"end":121.699,"text":"我知道啦 能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下我知道你們很多為難的地方但是站在環境部的立場應該要以環境永續還有建立這個人民健康的立場去把關我們現在把工具給你你應該要很高興才對啊"},{"start":123.176,"end":150.789,"text":"也謝謝委員因為其實去年委員就給我們工具所以給我們這個鼓勵所以我們也1月16號訂了這個法案所以現在其實都照我們這個例如說敏感區域20MW 15公頃就要環評所以其實這樣的我們速度也很快就可以做得到因為我覺得把這東西如果寫在母法裡面把洪瀉這個血死讓可能發生的指法鬆綁地方施壓這種狀況降到最低這個叫提高確定性"},{"start":152.029,"end":174.002,"text":"如果你們支持敏感保護區其實沒有理由去反對把紅線寫在母法上面你們這是怕以後面對這個財團或者是大企業沒有辦法去處理嗎因為敏感保護區的定義會隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣那當然環境部當然是保護環境部我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛但是因為"},{"start":176.824,"end":194.674,"text":"也報告委員因為我們所有的這個環評的標準都是要來討論的各方的意見出來那我們的現在的程序公聽或是公告公聽的方式也都是把那個程序弄進來那其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到那如果修母法的話其實以後就會大家每一個都要來講修"},{"start":198.72,"end":212.154,"text":"你們送來的報告跟七大光電工協會的縮帖放在旁邊對照一下幾乎的論點都是一模一樣是巧合還是你們有心電感應"},{"start":215.356,"end":231.894,"text":"沒有所謂的基本上我們有自己的主張首先跟委員說明國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的比如說我在報告裡面所寫的無論是日本或是歐洲都是發展非常的快速而且占比非常的高"},{"start":232.535,"end":254.553,"text":"而各國對於光電的所謂的這個發展可是你們部長剛剛之前說說只要地方居民不肯就不做嘛那左院長好像也這樣講那這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎你們喜歡說拿國外來講日本美40那個MEGA才要環評嘛日本面積是台灣的幾倍啊"},{"start":255.687,"end":270.533,"text":"當然比台灣大很多所以每個地方的這個地理環境還有人文還有對政府的信任度不一樣因為你們的話術太多因為環境會影響開發的時間我真的不知道這個我們部長之前講過這話我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的"},{"start":278.658,"end":290.765,"text":"現在居民不想要有光電板那廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意有時候很大的阻礙你現在的覺得環境部如果你們都不要的話是不是環境部沒有存在的必要啊"},{"start":292.304,"end":317.831,"text":"我們是要啦我們是要希望能夠有一些管制的一個方式但是其實如果說全世界的這個國家的這個環評的標準都有把它列出來啦所以我們是相對已經很嚴格的但是如果說你設到什麼1MW都要的話其實搞不好其實大家的這個參與的這個願意來生設的機會就會少很多所以基本上我們認為這個其實是可以來供大家社會來討論的"},{"start":319.261,"end":336.296,"text":"好啦 我是覺得說你把這個法律位階把它確定會比較好一點對 我們也是認同委員的建議啦像光烈納入環評民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評其實能源署也在做這樣的事情我們也鼓勵也希望可以這樣做啦我們請一下農業部我們黃市長我們農業部說"},{"start":347.445,"end":364.897,"text":"這個烏山頭水庫檢測出因離子介面活性劑但無法判定是人工還是天然部長麻煩你 你回答一下好了是這樣嗎 報委員那個是這個農業部農水署他們量的 的確是這個樣子"},{"start":368.717,"end":397.464,"text":"那你們有做過判斷嗎我們沒有特別量因為這個是印尼模型機器並不是說我們飲用水的一個標準之一啦那我們是看他們的數據那因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感那的確它是在一個儀器的偵測的一個敏感值裡面他們在測定這個判定還是你在判定是他們在判定那你們是做什麼對這個很了解 對他們很了解 你不了解要不要來說我們水保室市長"},{"start":398.88,"end":423.969,"text":"跟委員報告 它偵測出來的濃度大概0.05到0.07那這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是兩倍的偵測極限換言之就是說空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制所以你們是用什麼方法測這個叫做比射法"},{"start":424.909,"end":426.129,"text":"那所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了是"},{"start":445.458,"end":468.03,"text":"那我再問你我們飲用水我記得是沒有減陰離子介面的活性劑對不對報告委員是有的我們的這個飲用水的水質標準68項都有加進去就對了它今年又增加了兩項總共70項70項裡面有一個陰離子介面活性劑那它是屬於我們所謂的適應性感官的一個項目它的限值是0.5mgpl好 謝謝"},{"start":472.611,"end":493.24,"text":"那另外我再問這個農業部還有經濟部這個太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽那餘電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎報告委員 既然是餘電共生的話那一定是必須存在的那我們現在的這個餘電共生有七成是裡面沒魚"},{"start":495.493,"end":520.432,"text":"報告委員 這個部分的話可能是有一些誤解事實上有一些在申請的這個部分如果是已經完成的這個部分它裡面一定是要有養魚的所以它做好之後就把魚放下去然後你們來檢查然後魚死了也不管就對了我們每年都會有固定的檢查那為什麼會有這個目前統計嘛 當然只有12%的違規可是有7成呢是不符合漁電共生條件的漁溫那這些怎麼辦"},{"start":521.742,"end":545.44,"text":"事實上我們有定期的做這個檢查然後第二個部分是因為魚撈的這個養殖是他有產跡的他並不是全年度都在那你去檢查的時候剛好他產跡產完然後把他撈走的時候對 如果是這樣的情況也是有的但是我們對於他還是你們講好的不是只有魚而已就是說他有沒有投餌然後有沒有購買飼料然後有沒有販售魚的這樣的一些證明我們都會有檢查"},{"start":547.364,"end":565.976,"text":"對啊 因為我看到這個很奇怪為什麼都漁電工程都看不到魚啊有沒有真的在養魚我想農業經營計畫裡面有沒有落實這一塊那通過之後我們才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛才能拿到電源執照可是他們現在我們抽查是多久 抽查一次我們不定"},{"start":568.952,"end":594.518,"text":"我們不定期但是在這個光電業者的這個規定裡面它是每年必須要有因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板就能以市營運的名義來併網開始發電我不希望這變成漏洞不希望這變成漏洞希望主管機關呢能夠確實來執行"},{"start":596.238,"end":616.566,"text":"不要變成說就讓業者有這個上有政策下有對策反正你們來之前我放一些魚進去就可以了嘛這種事大家都會做啊跟委員說明啊基本上你剛剛講的士兵連他只是一個士兵連王而已他也沒有收入"},{"start":617.125,"end":633.656,"text":"他還沒拿到所謂的發電業的他不是可以賣了嗎沒有 不行 他只是試併連而已試併連 然後呢等到什麼時候才可以用等到他真的拿到發電的執照 電業的執照執照 拿到執照之後我們還管不管"},{"start":634.532,"end":663.141,"text":"當然持續在管啊 生設開始籌設一直到施工 甚至施工完成的時候都持續要去管的那我們現在目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做一個橫向的聯繫針對於以農業為主好啦 我希望時間的問題啦我希望你們這個確實來嚴格來把關啦好不好 政策性的這個部分你們不要說讓這個葉子有機可乘 好不好"},{"start":666.552,"end":667.195,"text":"謝謝謝謝邱正軍委員發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時43分）主席好，我們請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，我們現在討論一下，我們要把環評範圍提升到法律位階，這個部分部長您支持嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為環評在我們的子法裡面就有定義了，我們有一個子法，如果拉到母法層位階，因為這要與時俱進，我怕我們每年都會發現新的東西，遺漏的都會加進去，如果是由行政機關在子法裡訂定就會比較快，這次如果大院要修訂到母法，那恐怕……"],["邱委員鎮軍：提上去不是比較好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：提上去之後，因為我們現在所有的項目都在子法裡面，等於會欠缺一些彈性，所以我們是建議……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你的彈性是要用來幹嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：我舉例，例如最近的碳捕捉和封存在地底下，那種以前是不用環評，也不知道怎麼去訂，我們現在發現這個需要環評，就會想要把它列進去，所以我們每年都會定期修正我們的子法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得母法的部分還是要把它寫清楚，讓底下的子法比較好執行，如果有需要調整我們再調整，不是嗎？"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，我們的母法是訂我們有權責可以去訂認定標準，而我們的認定標準滾動檢討，隨時發現有新的該加進去，或者說舊的訂得不好必須要再加強的話，我們隨時可以檢討。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道啦！能源政策在賴清德總統還有經濟部的強勢主導之下，我知道你們有很多為難的地方，但是站在環境部的立場，應該要以環境永續，還有建立人民健康的立場去把關。我們現在把工具給你，你應該要很高興才對啊！"],["彭部長啓明：也謝謝委員，其實去年委員就給我們工具、給我們鼓勵，所以我們1月16號訂了這個法案，現在其實都照著做，例如敏感區域20MW、15公頃就要環評，這樣我們的速度也很快就可以做得到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我覺得如果把這個東西寫在母法裡面，把紅線寫死，讓可能發生的子法鬆綁、地方施壓的狀況降到最低，這個叫提高確定性。如果你們支持敏感保護區，其實沒有理由反對把紅線寫在母法上面，你們這是怕以後面對財團或者是大企業沒有辦法處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為敏感保護區的定義隨著科技的進步會有一點不一樣，當然環境部是以保護環境……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們就是用科學的立場去考慮嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是報告委員，因為我們所有的環評標準都是經由討論讓各方的意見出來，我們現在的程序，包括公聽或是公告的方式，也都是把那個程序弄進來，其實現在不需要修母法就可以做得到，如果修母法的話，以後每一個都要這樣修。"],["邱委員鎮軍：經濟部，你們送來的報告跟七大光電公協會的說帖放在旁邊對照一下，幾乎論點都是一模一樣，是巧合還是你們已經有心電感應？"],["賴次長建信：沒有所謂的……基本上，我們有自己的主張。首先跟委員說明，國際上對於太陽能光電的發展趨勢都是一致的，比如說報告裡面所寫的，無論是日本或是歐洲，都是發展非常快速，而且占比非常高，而各國對於光電的發展都是持續開發。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是你們部長之前說只要地方居民不肯就不做，卓院長好像也這樣講，這份報告有符合他們的期待嗎？"],["賴次長建信：我們基本上還是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們喜歡拿國外來講，日本是40MW才要環評，日本面積是臺灣的幾倍？"],["賴次長建信：當然比臺灣大很多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！所以每個地方的地理環境、人文，還有對政府的信任度不一樣，因為你們的話術太多，環評會影響開發的時間，對於部長之前講過的話，我真的不太相信這是從環境部講出來的，現在居民不想要有光電板，廠商要開發取得土地使用權或居民同意，有時候有很大的阻礙，你覺得現在如果都不要的話，是不是環境部沒有存在的必要？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是要的，我們是希望能夠有一些管制的方式，現在全世界國家的環評標準都有把它列出來，所以我們是相對已經很嚴格了，但是如果設到1MW都要的話，其實搞不好大家願意申設的機會就會少很多，基本上我們認為這其實是可以供社會大家來討論的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！我是覺得你把法律位階確定會比較好一點。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們也是認同委員的建議啦！像光電納入環評，民間可以有一個能源白皮書的政策環評，其實能源署也在做這樣的事情，我們也鼓勵、也希望可以這樣做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請農業部。黃次長，農業部說烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子界面活性劑，但無法判定是人工還是天然，麻煩彭部長回答一下好了，是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是農業部農水署他們量的，的確是這個樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們有做過判斷嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們沒有特別量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：因為陰離子活性劑並不是我們飲用水的標準之一，當然我們是看他們的數據，因為我們同仁對這個數字比較敏感，的確它是在一個儀器偵測的敏感值裡面。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是他們在判定還是你在判定？"],["彭部長啓明：是他們在判定，我們自己的同仁……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你們是做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：對這個很了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他們很了解，你不了解？"],["彭部長啓明：請水保司司長說明。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，偵測出來的濃度大概是0.05到0.07，這個值基本上在我們的標準方法裡面，即便是空白樣品所容許檢出的也是2倍的偵測極限，換言之就是說，空白的樣品基本上都有可能因為方法的限制……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們是用什麼方法測？"],["王司長嶽斌：這個叫做比色法，就是甲烯藍比色法，這是目前國環院所公告的一個標準檢驗方法，也是國際上所通用的陰離子界面活性劑的一個檢驗方法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們檢測出來現在是沒有問題就對了？"],["王司長嶽斌：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。那我再問你，我們的飲用水我記得是沒有檢測陰離子界面活性劑，對不對？"],["王司長嶽斌：報告委員，是有的，我們的飲用水水質標準68項……"],["邱委員鎮軍：都有加進去就對了？"],["王司長嶽斌：去年又增加了2項，總共70項，70項裡面就有一個陰離子界面活性劑，它是屬於所謂適飲性感觀物質的一個項目，它的限值是0.5mg/L。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。","另外我再問農業部和經濟部，太陽餅裡面可以沒有太陽，那漁電共生裡面可以沒有魚嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，既然是漁電共生，那一定是必須存在的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我們現在的漁電共生有7成裡面沒魚。"],["黃次長昭欽：報告委員，這個部分可能是有一些誤解，事實上有一些申請如果是已經完成的部分，裡面一定是要有養魚。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他做好之後就把魚放下去，然後你們來檢查，然後魚死了也不管就對了？"],["黃次長昭欽：我們每年都會有固定的檢查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前統計只有12%的違規，可是有7成是不符合漁電共生條件的魚塭，這些怎麼辦？"],["黃次長昭欽：事實上我們有定期檢查，第二個部分是因為魚撈養殖是有產季的，並不是全年度都在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你去檢查的時候剛好是產季結束，然後把它撈走的時候，是這樣嗎？"],["黃次長昭欽：對，這樣的情況也是有的，但是我們對於……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是你們講好的？"],["黃次長昭欽：不是只有魚而已，就是有沒有投餌，然後有沒有購買飼料、有沒有販售魚這樣的一些證明，我們都會有檢查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！因為我看到這個覺得很奇怪，為什麼漁電共生都看不到魚？有沒有真的在養魚？我想農業經營計畫裡面要落實這一塊，通過之後才能夠進入第二階段的綠能容許嘛！"],["黃次長昭欽：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：才能拿到電業執照，現在是多久抽查一次？"],["黃次長昭欽：我們不定期，但是在光電業者的規定裡面是每年必須要有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到你們2020年為了加速推動綠能，經濟部能源署自己開了一扇小門，只要完成第一階段鋪上太陽能板，就能以試營運的名義併網開始發電，我不希望這變成漏洞，希望你們主管機關能夠確實執行，不要變成讓業者是上有政策，下有對策，反正你們來之前放一些魚進去就可以了，這種事大家都會做啊！"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，基本上你剛剛講的試併聯，它只是一個試併聯網而已，它也沒有收入，也還沒拿到所謂的發電業的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它不是可以賣了嗎？"],["賴次長建信：沒有，不行，它只是試併聯而已。"],["邱委員鎮軍：試併聯，然後呢？等到什麼時候才可以用？"],["賴次長建信：等到它真正拿到發電的執照、電業的執照。"],["邱委員鎮軍：拿到執照之後，我們還管不管？"],["賴次長建信：當然持續在管，從開始籌設一直到施工，甚至施工完成的時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，已經完成之後。"],["賴次長建信：都持續要去管的。我們目前為止每兩個禮拜都有跟農業部一起來做橫向聯繫，針對於以農業為主……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！時間的問題，我希望你們確實嚴格把關，好不好？"],["賴次長建信：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：政策性的這個部分，你們不要讓業者有機可乘，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員發言。","請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164401","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164401","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1be0629104ba98f04d10dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d2327cb1eca87a0d4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:51:27 - 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緝毒"},{"start":26.282,"end":50.048,"text":"掃黑氣土跟樹槍這都是我們很重要的一個治安的一個項目但是我們現有的缺額的部分截至目前為止我們的缺額高達7,675人現在我們的同仁服務的範圍那麼廣大那加上我們相關的配備設備嚴重的不足甚至最近的新聞我們的同仁因為基礎的裝備不足"},{"start":53.004,"end":59.45,"text":"他們回到重大事件要處理這個犯人的時候還要先寫遺書啦這種事情應該不會沒有這種事情不是沒有這種這個應該是一個一個不實的一個訊息不會說是像這種這個寫這個我們去了解沒有這種狀況"},{"start":69.94,"end":71.66,"text":"人力不足的部分我們一定是因為就是每年的這個容訓量比如像警裝跟警大一年合起來大概三千多人三千多人"},{"start":89.025,"end":102.933,"text":"那現在大概就是我們會根據這個退休的這種來做一個補足那我們可能未來就是對於這一些的一個場所的容許量我們會加強來做一個思考"},{"start":105.819,"end":128.417,"text":"那第二部分就是說這個會各縣市的一個治安的狀況來做一個來做一個增補來做一個條片人力的條片未來十年有可能會有超過兩萬個同仁退休這個部分我們如果沒有提前的部署人力不足加上訓練的問題我想未來對治安的疑慮我想也是百姓的恐懼"},{"start":129.52,"end":152.163,"text":"那剛剛我們有提到那個台北車站的一個問題因為像我們屏東我們最近潮州火車站我也請我們的鐵路警察局幫忙設了一個巡邏站但是因為我們的同仁也告訴我他們的人員不足所以如果要定點還有點有派人在那裡有所困難但是我有要求一定要強化這個見景率的部分搭配我們周邊的"},{"start":153.637,"end":176.537,"text":"分住所這個提高這個巡邏的密度尤其陰暗的時候我們有一些上班族或學生陰暗落單走在那個地方很恐怖這部分有沒有強化有沒有辦法強化這個部分好那這個部分我們會要求就是包括也有三個方面不是只有警察的鐵路的警察包括台鐵的站方或保全甚至轄區的派手要去做一個聯訪的機制來做一個處理"},{"start":179.039,"end":194.577,"text":"那尤其就是說那個執行率也就是說那個地方是不是有那些這個可能造成這個危安的這個對象要去加強的清查跟經管理啦就是這些人到底有沒有這些危害性"},{"start":195.538,"end":213.337,"text":"去做家長清查管理那也配合縣政府可以配合縣政府的社政的主管機關一起共同來根本來解決證比如想像比如像遊民那遊民可能要有一套的機制來解決包括縣市政府要一起來解決不是只有靠警方警方是只有這個"},{"start":215.788,"end":231.613,"text":"表面的去做盤查去做清查去做預防去做阻止但是要徹底解決根本的問題還是要在社政單位來解決這個相關譬如像劉明的這個問題這個應該是縣市政府要來加強來做一個安置跟跨部會來做一個解決因為我們也希望這個把這個治安的死角能夠把它消除掉那署長另外內政部上個禮拜有辦了一個這個"},{"start":245.919,"end":269.076,"text":"黑客松AI的競賽 讓我們航空警察局獲得一個金獎透過AI的一個智能的危險物品辨識系統有獲得獎但是我們之前的設備也不夠 尤其是車牌辨識系統所以沒做到事情 現在好像使用的偽造的狀況又更多了"},{"start":270.416,"end":298.408,"text":"我想不會偽造的狀況那對於車牌的辨識系統不管是在巡邏車跟汽車的對於這個這一些的安裝在這個上面去做巡邏領域去辨識相關的一個這個偽造、變造車牌或者是世界車輛那這個我們目前是全面在做推動當中因為尤其我們整個很多人去請到廢棄物我們要透過結合我們的縣市政府要做這個軌跡辨識啦現在我們抓到一些不法之徒"},{"start":298.848,"end":299.508,"text":"這個沒問題 我們加強來處理好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時51分）謝謝主席。有請警政署張署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：署長早安！署長，剛剛我聽了很多委員都在質詢，我這邊也要幫基層的同仁請命一下。根據目前我們所掌握到的狀況，目前警政署面對打詐也好、掃毒、掃黑、緝毒跟肅槍，這些都是我們很重要的治安項目，但是截至目前為止，我們現有的缺額高達7,675人。我們的同仁服務的範圍那麼的廣大，加上我們相關的配備、設備嚴重不足，甚至最近的新聞，我們的同仁因為基礎的裝備不足，他們遇到重大刑案要出去抓犯人的時候，還要先寫遺書，有沒有這種事情？請署長說明。"],["張署長榮興：應該沒有這種事情，這個應該是不實訊息，我們去瞭解後沒有這種狀況。"],["徐委員富癸：沒有這種狀況？"],["張署長榮興：沒有這種狀況，這個是不實的。"],["徐委員富癸：但是署長，針對人力不足的部分，還有基礎裝備的部分，你們要如何改善？"],["張署長榮興：人力不足的部分，我們每年的容訓量，譬如像警專跟警大一年合起來大概是三千多人，現在我們會根據退休的狀況補足。未來對於這些場所的容訓量，我們會加強思考。","第二個部分，我們會針對各縣市的治安狀況來做增補、人力的調配。"],["徐委員富癸：署長，未來10年我們可能會有超過2萬個同仁要退休，針對這個部分，如果我們沒有提前部署，這個人力不足的問題，再加上訓練的問題，我想未來會對治安造成疑慮，這個也是百姓的恐懼。剛剛我們有提到臺北車站的問題，像我們屏東的潮洲火車站，我們也有請鐵路警察局幫忙設一個巡邏站，但是我們的同仁也跟我反映，因為他們的人員不足，所以如果要固定派人在那邊會有所困難，但是我有要求一定要強化見警率，搭配周邊的分駐所，提高巡邏的密度，尤其是晚上的時候，我們有一些上班族也好，或是學生，他們落單走在那邊是很可怕的，有沒有辦法強化這個部分？"],["張署長榮興：好，這個部分我們會要求，這包括3個方面，不是只有鐵路警察，還包括臺鐵的站方或是保全，甚至是轄區的派出所，要用聯防的機制處理。尤其是執行率，就是那個地方是不是有可能會造成危安的對象，這個要加強清查和管理，就是這些人到底有沒有危害性，這個要加強清查和管理。也要配合縣政府的社政主管機關共同從根本解決，比如像遊民，遊民可能要有一套機制來解決，包括縣市政府要一起來解決，不是只有靠警方，警方只能表面去盤查、清查、預防和阻止，但是要澈底解決根本的問題，還是要由社政單位來解決，譬如像遊民這個問題，應該是縣市政府要加強安置跟解決。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊！這個一定要跨部會整合，然後中央跟地方合作。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我們也希望把這個治安的死角給消除掉。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["徐委員富癸：署長，另外，內政部上個禮拜有舉辦黑客松AI的競賽，我們航空警察局也獲得金牌、金獎，他們是透過AI智能危險物品辨識系統獲獎，但是我們基層的設備還是不夠，尤其是車牌辨識系統，沒做沒事，做了之後好像偽造的狀況又更多了，有這個情形嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我想不會有偽造的狀況，對於車牌辨識系統，不管是在巡邏車或機車，對於安裝在上面去巡邏，辨識相關的偽造、變造車牌或是私接的車輛，這個目前我們正全面的在推動當中。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其我們鄉下有很多人傾倒廢棄物，我們要結合我們的縣市政府來做軌跡辨識，這樣才能抓到不法之徒，因為他們亂傾倒有毒廢棄物會影響到我們整個環保跟衛生的問題，這個部分應該要加強一下。"],["張署長榮興：這個沒有問題，我們會加強處理。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["主席：感謝徐富癸委員質詢。","接下來伍麗華、伍麗華、伍麗華委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場之外，其餘皆已發言完畢，質詢結束。委員丁學忠、高金素梅、蘇巧慧、吳琪銘所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。委員所提未及答復之部分，請各相關單位於一個禮拜內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164400","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164400","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1be31cd4bb52f57e0110dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d205479c7cef35606c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:45:28 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那所以很多人覺得人來人往不覺得有什麼問題那當然就是說因為很多人就檢討說台灣不是最美的風景是人嗎怎麼大家好像視若無睹最後還是是一個馬來西亞籍的這個外籍旅客看到覺得不可思議 然後要求報案所以我想請教一下署長針對北車我們尊重 不定說一定"},{"start":143.67,"end":168.039,"text":"不支持禁坐令但是坐在那邊飲酒就是聯誼這個部分可不可以考慮禁止因為我覺得即便是坐在那裡即便有座位然後在那邊變成是一個什麼好像應酬飲酒文化我認為對於一個公共的一個空間也是有一個商榷的疑惑所以我不曉得署長認為這樣子就是說"},{"start":171.673,"end":196.918,"text":"就是還是可以坐下來沒有問題但是坐下來在那邊飲酒聊天然後嘻哈啦那後來出現這樣的事情大家就不以為意這個部分是不是有檢討的必要各位委員報告我上個禮拜這裡也有談過台北車站是一個國際的一個交通運輸的樞紐也是公共場合空間我的看法是禁止在那邊飲酒坐樂的"},{"start":197.802,"end":208.07,"text":"那個地方是禁止飲酒作樂也不是只有在那邊造成這些相關的影響到旅客的進出所以這個應該是要由台鐵站幫來禁止所以這個事件就是當時可能有巡邏"},{"start":215.816,"end":238.455,"text":"但是就在那邊飲酒可能也沒有去制止對不對所以未來這個部分是不是會嚴格制止不只台北車站在我們一些重要的這些運輸的樞紐你或坐或者是坐在位子上或者是坐在地板上等等那我們過去比如說也有很多的人坐在地板上他充電或者是打電腦這個都不需要去禁止"},{"start":242.018,"end":257.106,"text":"但是不管你是你是你是坐在位置上或者坐在地上不可以飲酒作樂我想這個是主管機關鐵路的一個站方要來做這樣的公告那我們來做配合跟就你自然主案機關應該做強烈的建議啊我們會去建議強烈的建議在那個場所飲酒作樂這個一定會強力的因為"},{"start":263.769,"end":277.08,"text":"不好意思給我一點點時間還有這個南京三名戰志郎警察呢是確實立刻逮捕而且立刻移送但是呢法官竟然裁定吳保請回啊所以署長這樣的狀況會不會使得你們要去保護婦女安全或者是要這些強化這些打擊資安死角這樣的法官就是吳保請回就方會街頭了會不會造成你們執法的困擾"},{"start":291.739,"end":301.448,"text":"這個我們遺憾啦 如果這個是院方的這個處理啦那這個應該是跟人民的期待有距離有距離嘛 而且對你們執法來講其實是造成你們的困擾嘛他如果又發生同樣狀況那當然啊對不對我現在已經要求勞教我就要求管區趕快去加強巡邏"},{"start":312.398,"end":316.4,"text":"我覺得這個是要互相去做配合跟處理其實這個矽膠的還有一些相關的一個處置的一個是其實都可以處置結果你就把它全部這樣放回去好像沒事一樣所以這一點我覺得我們的這個警方我們內政部也要跟相關的這些單位我認為這樣的法官其實是違反我們社會的一個期待他最後就這樣直接無保就請回了就放回街頭上好不好"},{"start":341.833,"end":341.853,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時45分）謝謝主席，我請警政署署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["王委員鴻薇：我也請次長好了。"],["主席：請常務次長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：署長好、次長好。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長、署長，最近發生了幾件讓婦女安全，大家感到非常憂心的事情，一個是震驚全國，事實上，在國際間也有很多報導的，就是在我們的臺北車站北車，發生通緝犯性侵案。另外，是比較地方性的，就是在臺北市的南京三民站，有一個街友，他直接企圖性侵當時倒垃圾的女子，我先講臺北車站的部分。當然，臺鐵跟鐵路警察局就有召開所謂安全聯防會議，但是我想請問一下，我們在北車的大廳，當年曾經因為很多外籍移工放假的時候會坐在那邊，他們聯誼，北車一度下了所謂的禁坐令，覺得這樣子有礙觀瞻，但是引起臺灣社會非常大的反彈，大家覺得我們應該對外籍移工的文化更加尊重。","這個案子不是外籍移工，都是來臺灣旅遊的，一位是香港遊客、一位是馬來西亞遊客，他看見後去報案。我要請問一下，在事件發生前，他們在北車坐在那邊飲酒、喝酒，雖然很多人人來人往，不覺得有什麼問題，然而很多人檢討說臺灣最美的風景不是人嗎？怎麼大家好像視若無睹，最後還是一個馬來西亞籍的外籍旅客看到，覺得不可思議，然後要求報案。","所以我想請教一下署長，針對北車，我們尊重，不支持禁坐令，但是坐在那邊飲酒、聯誼，這個部分可不可以考慮禁止？因為我覺得即便是坐在那裡、即便有座位，在那邊變成好像應酬、飲酒文化，我認為對於公共空間也是有商榷的疑慮，所以我不曉得署長認為，還是可以坐下來沒有問題，但是坐下來在那邊飲酒、聊天、嘻嘻哈哈，後來出現這樣的事情，大家就不以為意，這個部分是不是有檢討的必要？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，我上個禮拜也有談過，臺北車站是國際交通運輸的樞紐，也是公共場所空間，我的看法是禁止在那邊飲酒作樂。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然啊！"],["張署長榮興：那個地方是禁止飲酒作樂，也不是只有在那邊造成相關的……而且影響到旅客的進出。"],["王委員鴻薇：對。"],["張署長榮興：所以應該是要由臺鐵站方來禁止。"],["王委員鴻薇：而且老實講，有時候喝酒喝過度搞不好就會有騷擾，這個事件當時可能有巡邏，但是看到他們在那邊飲酒可能也沒有去制止，所以未來這個部分，不只臺北車站，在一些重要的運輸樞紐，你坐在位子上，或者是坐在地板上等等……過去比如說，也有很多的人坐在地板上，他充電，或者是打電腦，這些都不需要去禁止。但是，不管你是坐在位子上，或者坐在地上，不可以飲酒作樂。"],["張署長榮興：我想這是主管機關，鐵路站方要來做這樣的公告，我們來配合跟執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是就你作為治安主管機關，你應該強烈的建議啊！"],["張署長榮興：我們會去建議。"],["王委員鴻薇：強烈地建議。"],["張署長榮興：強烈地建議禁止在那個場所飲酒作樂，一定會強烈。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，不好意思，給我一點點時間。還有南京三民站之狼，警察確實立刻逮捕，而且立刻移送，但是法官竟然裁定無保請回啊！署長，這樣的狀況會不會影響你們要去保護婦女安全，或者是要強化打擊這些治安死角？這樣的法官，竟然就無保請回，就放回街頭了，這會不會造成你們執法的困擾？"],["張署長榮興：這個我們很遺憾，這個是院方的處理，這個應該跟人民的期待有距離。"],["王委員鴻薇：有距離嘛！而且對你們的執法來講，其實這會造成你們的困擾，如果他又發生同樣的狀況，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：那當然。"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在已經要求管區要趕快加強的去巡邏，其實這會增加我們的……"],["張署長榮興：我覺得這個要互相配合跟處置，其實吸膠的還有一些相關的處置作為。"],["王委員鴻薇：是、是，其實這個都可以處置，結果你卻把他全部這樣放回去，好像沒事一樣。這一點我覺得警方和內政部也要跟相關的這些單位……我認為這樣的法官其實是違反社會期待的，他最後就這樣直接無保請回了、放回街頭上，好不好？謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：感謝王鴻薇委員質詢。","請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bb55557e5a23c5c7d10dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d205479c7cef35606c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:37:35 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那事後被告知那我們到底掌握了多少"},{"start":116.823,"end":132.382,"text":"我們目前了解的就是這個太子的這個叫陳志仁大概110這個出入台灣是110年以前110年以後就沒有那現在可能對於這個公佈裡面的三個對象跟九個公司我們都有掌握"},{"start":133.263,"end":150.24,"text":"9個公司所以我們要講的是這9家涉案的台灣公司有8家登記在同一個地址這個地址大家很熟悉我們知名的歌手周杰倫他們家和平大院就有11戶他有11戶在這裡"},{"start":152.862,"end":167.634,"text":"一個沒有生產活動沒有營業額的空殼公司集團可以在台灣坐擁11戶的豪宅請問這麼明顯的洗錢特徵請問我們的警示系統在哪裡"},{"start":169.826,"end":197.716,"text":"警政署法務部都沒有警覺嗎因為這是110年前110年之前的所以你們的理由是這樣那我們就覺得難怪難怪台灣會成為詐騙集團的洗錢天堂我們這個詐騙的首腦他高調的炫富把豪宅當作什麼像我們在菜市場買菜一樣這樣在買結果我們完全沒有警示系統"},{"start":198.871,"end":207.985,"text":"那洗錢防治辦公室也完全不知不覺我不知道台灣的金融與商業監督是否形同虛設今天相關單位也沒來"},{"start":209.51,"end":228.989,"text":"那我接著問你們既然說那這是110年前我現在接著想問那現在太子集團首腦陳志你也知道這個人他在台灣的資產有9間公司11間豪宅你們打算怎麼處分這些不法資產"},{"start":229.912,"end":246.184,"text":"那跟委包這個案我們已經報請地檢署在做指揮偵辦當中那到底怎麼處置這些不法資產未來如果有涉嫌犯罪當然是會做查扣如果有涉嫌到犯罪所以你們到現在還認為他這11間豪宅這9間公司我們全國民眾都在想他能夠買這些豪宅"},{"start":255.231,"end":281.843,"text":"是不是都是这个诈骗我们台湾人的钱啊那我跟委员报告就是说我们会跟那个要三十几亿的和平大院啊我跟委员报告我们会跟美方联系到这个整个犯罪事证的连结如果说是属于涉案的所以你们是要乖乖等美国来处理不是要看事证连结啦事证连结有没有连结在一起还是你们在等诈骗集团他把房子卖了你们才要处理不会啦可能会做这个紧急的处分啦"},{"start":283.449,"end":306.057,"text":"你已经开始到现在我今天问你嘛你可能会做紧急处分你们到底决定怎么样如果是我们会跟警方来做一个联系看怎么样做比较有没有掌握到台湾的被害人目前这么大的一个跨国犯罪组目前来在查证当中就是要跟美方的讯息在做一个解决"},{"start":307.493,"end":330.359,"text":"我真的拜托因为他的那个整个的一个犯案的地方的一个地点应该都是在帛琉或者是其他那个国家那可能现在他我们了解一下以一个合法掩护非法的状况在做一个执行所以相关市政上我们还要去做市长还有署长还有我们法务部的代表市长"},{"start":331.431,"end":345.986,"text":"台灣進入超高齡化社會其實老人家他擔心什麼他擔心他晚年沒有錢但是台灣現在詐騙這麼嚴重很多都是退休人員或是年長者他被詐騙"},{"start":346.887,"end":361.97,"text":"我們今天看到這麼大的跨國集團台灣被查扣的目標數佔了整個的8%快要十分之一了他30幾個國家台灣就這個目標實體個人跟公司就佔了"},{"start":363.952,"end":389.985,"text":"8%那我们现在已经看到他这些资产我们还不积极的处理本席希望我们要把他这个不罚所得如果是对我们台湾人诈骗的所得要还给这些被诈骗的人你们朝这个方向来做可以吗这个可以如果说这个我们是朝这个最伦理的手段来做一个处理这些他们在台湾的资产要优先还给台湾的被害人"},{"start":391.601,"end":403.651,"text":"我們朝這個目標來努力所以我們希望啊署長還有次長我們台灣不應該是詐騙者的洗錢天堂它應該是犯罪者的墳墓"},{"start":405.202,"end":428.271,"text":"你们要朝这个方向还有我们现在都只会抓车手然后告诉我们说这个都抓到没有钱的车手现在这么大的我们抓到了我们这么大的被查获了所以我们希望我们整个打炸的KPI不是抓了多少的车手"},{"start":429.386,"end":448.311,"text":"是應該要看為被害人追回了多少錢這個是全民的期待可以嗎可以加油我們也支持你們你們一定要強硬起來全力的為我們的民眾追回這些他們被詐騙的錢也不只是這個案台灣太多了我相信部長還有署長都很清楚可以嗎可以好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":690,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時37分）謝謝主席，本席想請內政部吳常次、警政署張署長，還有法務部的代表。"],["主席：請吳常次、張署長、法務部司長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：感謝主席。今天的題目很好，要求報告我們現在全國的治安狀況，我也看到內政部報告裡面寫到當前全國治安狀況，客觀數據顯示，最嚴重的還是詐欺犯罪，當然也講到要持續強化打詐、掃黑、緝毒及肅槍。本席今天要就打詐來特別詢問，首先，我想請教次長、署長還有司長，美國司法部和財政部最近重拳出擊，破獲了太子控股集團這個跨國的詐騙組織，美國制裁名單中，我們赫然發現在146個實體和個人目標，它查獲了這麼多，有3名臺灣人、9家臺灣公司。首先，請問臺灣在這起國際掃蕩中究竟扮演什麼角色，我們是事前參與的合作夥伴，還是事後才被美方告知的局外人？請回答，簡答。"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個案件的行動是美國財政部還有法務部主動的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要再講這些話！"],["張署長榮興：他們行動的時候……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在問的是我們有參與嗎？"],["張署長榮興：沒有，沒有通知我們。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們是事後被告知，我們到底掌握了多少？"],["張署長榮興：我們目前了解的是太子集團陳志出入臺灣是110年以前，110年以後就沒有，現在對於公布名單裡面的3個對象及9個公司，我們都有掌握。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我要講的是，這9家涉案的臺灣公司有8家登記在同一個地址，這個地址大家很熟悉，知名歌手周杰倫他們家，和平大苑就有11戶，他有11戶在這裡，一個沒有生產活動、沒有營業額的空殼公司集團，可以在臺灣坐擁11戶的豪宅，這麼明顯的洗錢特徵，請問我們的警示系統在哪裡？警政署、法務部都沒有警覺嗎？因為這是110年之前的，你們的理由是這樣，我們就覺得難怪，難怪臺灣會成為詐騙集團的洗錢天堂，詐騙的首腦高調炫富，把豪宅當作什麼？像在菜市場買菜一樣在買，結果我們完全沒有警示系統，洗錢防制辦公室也完全不知不覺，我不知道臺灣的金融與商業監督是否形同虛設？今天相關單位也沒來。","我接著問，既然你們說這是110年之前，我接著想問，現在太子集團首腦陳志，你也知道此人，他在臺灣的資產有9間公司、11間豪宅，你們打算怎麼處分這些不法資產？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，此案已經報請地檢署指揮偵辦當中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那到底怎麼處置這些不法資產？"],["張署長榮興：未來如果有涉嫌犯罪當然是會查扣，如果有涉嫌到犯罪啦！如果說這一些……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們到現在還認為他這11間豪宅、9間公司……全國民眾都在想，他能夠買這些豪宅，是不是都是詐騙臺灣人的錢啊？要三十幾億的和平大苑……"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，我們會跟美方聯繫到整個犯罪事證的連結，如果說是屬於涉案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是要乖乖等美國來處理，還是……"],["張署長榮興：不是，要看事證連結啦！事證連結有沒有連結在一起……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還是你們在等詐騙集團把房子賣了，你們才要處分？"],["張署長榮興：不會啦！可能會做緊急處分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：從開始到現在，我今天問你，你可能會做緊急處分，你們到底決定怎麼樣？"],["張署長榮興：我們會跟警方聯繫，看怎麼樣有比較妥當的方式。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有掌握到臺灣的被害人？"],["張署長榮興：目前沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這麼大的跨國犯罪組織。"],["張署長榮興：目前還在查證當中，就是要跟美方的訊息再做界接。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我真的拜託……"],["張署長榮興：因為他整個犯案的地點應該都是在帛琉，或者是其他國家，可能牽涉到……以一個合法掩護非法的狀況在執行，所以相關事證上，我們還要去做連結。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長、署長，還有法務部的代表，司長。臺灣進入超高齡化社會，其實老人家他擔心什麼？他擔心他晚年沒有錢，但是臺灣現在詐騙這麼嚴重，很多都是退休人員或是年長者被詐騙。今天看到這麼大的跨國集團，臺灣被查扣的目標數占了整個的8%，快要十分之一了，三十幾個國家中，臺灣這個目標實體，個人跟公司就占了8%，現在已經看到他這些資產，你們還不積極處理。本席希望，他的不法所得，如果是對臺灣人詐騙的所得，要還給這些被詐騙的人，你們朝方向來做，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以，我們是朝最嚴厲的手段來處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：他們在臺灣的資產要優先還給臺灣的被害人，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我們朝這個目標努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以，我們希望署長還有次長，臺灣不應該是詐騙者的洗錢天堂，而應該是犯罪者的墳墓，你們要朝這個方向。","還有，現在都只會抓車手，然後告訴我們，都抓到沒有錢的車手，現在這麼大的案子被查獲了，我們希望整個打詐的KPI不是抓了多少車手，而應該要看為被害人追回了多少錢，這個是全民的期待，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，加油！我們也支持你們，你們一定要強硬起來，全力為我們的民眾追回他們被詐騙的錢。也不只是這個案子，臺灣太多了，我相信部長和署長都很清楚，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，加油。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["主席：感謝徐欣瑩委員質詢。","請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164398","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164398","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b30fdc5766d86087510dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d205479c7cef35606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那沒關係你講不出來就算了我還是跟你講111年現判13號健保資料庫他曾經大法官有做出一個資料庫要建制一定要有法律上的標準那他當時要知道收集對象是誰目的是什麼要件是什麼保存期限等等甚至"},{"start":86.454,"end":101.051,"text":"收集得的資料的監督機制這個都非常重要我們不能讓你這個建制的這個資料庫變成是黑名單用我們以前為了廢除刑法100條我們希望海外的流亡份子可以回到"},{"start":101.772,"end":129.745,"text":"他們認為的黑名單可以回到台灣我們做了多少努力當年我還是學生的時候就今天我們要越走越回去嗎還要由國家來建置一個資料庫來去把哪一些人他覺得有問題把他列出黑名單你要這麼做我沒有意見但是必須要法律授權請你們記得這件事情不能用國家安全這件或元首為安就什麼想做什麼都做什麼如果啊你像你第一個你搞不清楚法律授權是什麼再來"},{"start":131.743,"end":161.032,"text":"他的資料庫收集之後怎麼用目的是什麼對象是誰如果你們搞不清楚你們去問一下那個政委好不好林明星政委他對這一塊比較熟啦你去問一下不能隨隨便便給我一份報告就說要建置一個資料庫這已經完全不像台灣已經不像法治國家變警察國家這是不應該的那可不可以請你們把有關這個部分能夠一份報告來給我們說清楚"},{"start":161.55,"end":188.876,"text":"你們收集資料庫的目的對象要件保存的方式以及監督的單位是哪一些要跟我說清楚好不好這個很重要如果沒有你根本就違法那再來今天這個我本來想問你們幾個問題但是因為你可能連那個法律授權都不清楚所以問這個可能也可能你也答不出來啦但是我想你那整個制定的要點還有SOP都要給我一份你們怎麼做由誰做"},{"start":189.352,"end":208.944,"text":"哪一個單位做都要給我一份好那我再問你們一下就是我直接跟你們講啦這個資料庫我認為有幾個風險點我在這邊替全國人民來告訴兩個機關第一個就是資料庫會不會變成黑名單這個很重要你不能 組黨不要跟我說不會啦"},{"start":210.994,"end":233.226,"text":"現在國家在幹什麼我們不是不懂我們只希望國家能夠更有制度化因為人治的地方一定會產生風險我知道民進黨當年也是為了推翻人治的一些概念所以他才壯大也是為了民主嘛那我們不能讓國家走回回頭路我也不認為應該用政治黑名單來鉗制人民的思想所以"},{"start":234.947,"end":258.501,"text":"第一個只要你們的邊界不清楚SOP不清楚人民都會被擔心列入黑名單再來就是你網路跟資料你怎麼收集因為我們台灣之所以讓中國大會的人很羨慕是因為我們有非常自由的一些言論我們在網路上面也很自由那你今天你要返回去走你是不是就應該要自我控制好"},{"start":259.554,"end":276.625,"text":"我講啦你會不會到最後變成只要賴清德三個字你就跳回名單出來我是擔心這個點還有一個我在談之前有人寫了一個陳菊走了嗎那後來就被查辦嘛請問一下員警查辦是不是有法律依據"},{"start":277.984,"end":292.879,"text":"那這個部分就是是不是善惑犯罪的這個狀況不是 陳菊走了嘛 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主席謝謝 麻煩請署長加署長委員好來 署長好署長 今天感謝召委這邊排這相關的一個專題報告"},{"start":15.612,"end":37.218,"text":"本期也想了解我開宗明義自始至終我們都很支持基層的公務同仁因為基層的警察同仁非常辛苦尤其是現在不管是詐騙不管是任何的這一些大小事都要我們第一線的員警來做處理非常辛苦不容易但該討論的事項還是要討論我先請教一下刑法135條指的是什麼"},{"start":38.447,"end":47.517,"text":"134 應該那個善貨 善貨罪 就是善貨人家犯罪 應該確定善貨罪嗎 是嗎 是妨礙公務吧136條 善貨他人犯罪 好 136條勒"},{"start":57.437,"end":68.982,"text":"你也不清楚嘛 署長在第一時間面臨到即便是你學有專精 即便是那麼了解 刑法136條也不清楚是聚眾啊 聚眾三人以上 妨礙公務啊138條咧 140條 141條 署長都不清楚那署長為什麼會請教這個問題 不用現在再看了啦來啦 為什麼會請教這個問題"},{"start":84.773,"end":102.489,"text":"看到一名員警在高雄的時候因為總統車隊經過員警過來對單一男子喔他是單一個人喔我們看到畫面單一個人嘛員警過來講說執勤公務啊按照法條刑法135條138條140條141條妨礙社會秩序執勤特種勤務你拍特勤就是違法請教我以哪一條法例"},{"start":112.076,"end":117.419,"text":"現在不是說我頒法條出來喔念的00中總138139140好像這樣就很專業因為連署長剛剛被問到的時候也都不清楚這些法條內容到底是什麼那這個員警這樣子有沒有爭議應該是沒有爭議啦沒有爭議你現在這樣子啦你連署長都不清楚那個法條內容然後你跟我講說沒有爭議那你覺得說符合嗎來"},{"start":142.281,"end":156.369,"text":"總統的或副總統維安是依照特勤中心特勤這個條例總統有特殊的規格維安我不反對因為國安規格就是國安規格那是有特勤條例 特勤條例裡面會去公告特勤條例的第12條是對於公告的這些相關可能造成維安的狀況會去做一些盤查的一些相關的勤務行為沒有問題盤查的相關的特別但我先請教啊"},{"start":170.676,"end":189.512,"text":"遠景到恐嚇一般的老百姓不能恐嚇沒有恐嚇老百姓他拿出這些條例有哪一條是符合第一您剛也不清楚說這條例內容一時間你被問到也不清楚即便是我們警政署長被問到也不清楚我應該是要跟他講說這第幾條是什麼樣的一個罪名有沒有符合聚眾三人136條聚眾三人對不對那看到只有一個人"},{"start":197.83,"end":213.804,"text":"然後他搬出136條聚眾三人什麼意思那我想跟委員報告如果員警有這些使用這些錯誤的作用我們會去做一個再教育現在署長改口說員警使用錯誤的條例因為那個盤炒我現在講的是盤炒的這個作為啦138條是什麼你不知道嗎138條是毀損公務員的文書"},{"start":224.383,"end":251.891,"text":"是公務員如果說有任何文書你去把他毀損139 140條是什麼是侮辱公務員141條是什麼是執勤的時候侮辱公務員那這一個民眾他拿手機出來拍維安車隊你可以用其他的條文如果說符合我現在講的是說國家有國家的法令總統有國安的高規格的維安我不反對"},{"start":252.811,"end":280.271,"text":"但是你如果拿錯誤的法條故意要來恐嚇民眾我沒有辦法接受啊員警如果執行了這些的這個相關的疏失我們會再去做教育那這個是適用特警條例的規範來做盤查特警條例有告訴員警說你可以拿不對法條只要唸出來唸出來就算對沒有講那個特別法條就是依照特警條例來做一個盤查署長署長我們現在人武分局改口啊"},{"start":281.131,"end":301.456,"text":"說這是善意提醒啊為什麼要改口這個我想就是說你署長又講的那麼義正嚴實說這是違安那現在又說改口誰說的算遠景的這個部分他個人的一個相關的工作上的這一些這個這個這個這個疏失或者是這一些不是不對的我們會去做教育"},{"start":305.217,"end":320.062,"text":"那這個以這個案來講這是依照特權條例的規範來做一個盤查特權條例第12條那本來特權條例第二就是有規範的這個路段跟路口對於這個造成總統違安的各種狀況那總統的違安一定要達到萬全啊"},{"start":322.801,"end":348.341,"text":"可能就是他在那邊做什麼動作你沒有去瞭解你沒有辦法自圓其說啦我只講兩點啦第一總統有違安高規格本席不反對任何人都有機會當總統當了總統就中華民國的代表就應該有違安高規格但是絕對不是無限上綱更不是一個員警可以拿錯誤的法條來去恐嚇人民第一他明明執勤的時候就使用錯誤法條"},{"start":349.102,"end":369.37,"text":"第二 如果說你剛講你用錯誤法條然後你要援警再教育的話那要一體試用啊 要講清楚啊 不能一人涉事啊不能一人涉事啊 半藍不半綠是過去大家看到覺得最荒謬的事情不要讓民眾覺得現在是台灣是法治的社會警察的 警察國家"},{"start":370.838,"end":397.311,"text":"絕對不會署長一定是依法啦錯誤的法條不要濫用你剛已經講了人五分局也改口了我想這件事情影片我不知道你有沒有看過有看過有看過那你就更你就更清楚明白本席的強調的重點不是拿法條出來背幾條就可以恐嚇人民的連署長被問到的時候都不知道那法條內容的時候我不知道一般的民眾怎麼樣能夠"},{"start":400.525,"end":402.876,"text":"幸福警察的執勤謝謝我們感謝侯孟愷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":619,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時23分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：署長好。署長，今天感謝召委排了這個專題報告，本席也想了解一些事情，我開宗明義講，自始至終，我們都很支持基層的公務同仁，因為基層的警察同仁非常辛苦。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：尤其現在不管是詐騙、不管是任何的大小事都要由第一線的員警來做處理，真的是非常辛苦，不容易啦！但是該討論的事項還是要討論。我先請教一下，刑法第一百三十五條規定的是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：第一百三十五條是煽惑罪，就是煽惑人家犯罪。"],["洪委員孟楷：你確不確定？"],["張署長榮興：應該確定。"],["洪委員孟楷：是煽惑罪嗎？是嗎？是妨礙公務吧！"],["張署長榮興：是煽惑他人犯罪。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一百三十六條呢？"],["張署長榮興：這可能要看一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：你也不清楚嘛！署長在被問到的第一時間，即便你學有專精，即便是那麼了解，對刑法第一百三十六條也不清楚，這是聚眾三人以上妨礙公務。第一百三十八條呢？"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個可能要再看一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：第一百四十條呢？第一百四十一條呢？署長都不清楚。署長，我為什麼會請教這個問題？現在不用再看了！來，我為什麼會請教這個問題？因為我有看到影片，在高雄有一名員警在總統車隊經過的時候跟一位自己一個人的男子講，當時正在執勤公務，按照刑法第一百三十五條、第一百三十六條、第一百三十八條、第一百四十條、第一百四十一條，他妨礙社會秩序，因為在執行特種勤務，你拍特勤就是違法。署長，請教這樣是違反哪一條法令？"],["張署長榮興：我跟委員報告，現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在不是說搬法條出來，唸出林林總總的條文，包括第一百三十八條、第一百三十九條、第一百四十條，好像這樣就很專業，連署長在剛剛被問到的時候也都不清楚這些法條的內容到底是什麼，這個員警這樣執勤有沒有爭議？"],["張署長榮興：委員，我跟你報告一下，應該是沒有爭議……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有爭議？"],["張署長榮興：現在是這樣子……"],["洪委員孟楷：連署長自己都不清楚那些法條的內容，然後你跟我講沒有爭議，那你覺得說符合嗎？"],["張署長榮興：委員，是不是可以讓我報告一下？"],["洪委員孟楷：來！"],["張署長榮興：總統或副總統的維安是依照特勤條例由特勤中心……"],["洪委員孟楷：我不反對總統有特殊規格的維安，因為國安規格就是國安規格，但是我現在要請教的是……"],["張署長榮興：那是有特勤條例，在特勤條例裡面會去公告，特勤條例的第十二條是對於公告的這些可能造成維安的相關狀況會去做一些盤查的勤務作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，沒有問題，是特別的相關盤查。但是我現在要請教，員警恐嚇一般的老百姓……"],["張署長榮興：不能恐嚇，沒有恐嚇老百姓。"],["洪委員孟楷：他拿出這些條文，有哪一條是符合的？第一，您剛剛也不清楚這些條文的內容，你在被問到的第一時間也不清楚嘛！即便是我們警政署長被問到也不清楚。"],["張署長榮興：委員，應該是要跟他講第幾條是什麼樣的罪名。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二，要看有沒有符合第一百三十六條的「聚集三人」，對不對？我們看到只有一個人，然後他搬出規定「聚集三人」的第一百三十六條，這是什麼意思？"],["張署長榮興：我想跟委員報告，如果員警有這些使用錯誤的狀況，我們會去做再教育。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在署長改口說員警使用錯誤的條文……"],["張署長榮興：沒有，我現在講的是盤查的作為。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，第一百三十八條是規定什麼？你不知道嘛！第一百三十八條是毀損公務員的文書，就是公務員如果有任何文書，你去加以毀損。第一百三十九條、第一百四十條是規定什麼？是污辱公務員。第一百四十一條是規定什麼？是在公務員執勤的時候污辱公務員。那這個民眾拿手機出來拍維安車隊，如果說符合，你可以用其他的條文，我現在要講的是國家有國家的法令，總統有高規格的維安，我不反對，但是你如果拿一些錯誤的法條故意要來恐嚇民眾，我沒有辦法接受啊！"],["張署長榮興：員警如果在執勤的時候有這些相關的疏失，我們會再去做教育。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有疏失？"],["張署長榮興：這是適用特勤條例的規範來做盤查。"],["洪委員孟楷：特勤條例有跟員警說你可以拿不對的法條，只要唸出來就算對？"],["張署長榮興：沒有、沒有，不能講說要用不同的法條，沒有講那個特別法，就是依照特勤條例來做一個盤查。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，署長，現在仁武分局改口說這是善意提醒，為什麼要改口？"],["張署長榮興：我想就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：署長都講得那麼義正辭嚴，你說這是維安，現在他們又改口，那是誰說的算？"],["張署長榮興：關於員警的這個部分，是他個人在工作上的疏失或者是有不對的時候，我們會去做教育。以這個案子來講，這個是依照特勤條例的規範來做一個盤查，就是特勤條例第十二條，本來特勤條例就是有規範的這個路段跟路口，對於造成總統維安的各種狀況，總統的維安一定是要達到萬全，可能就是他在那邊做什麼動作，你沒有去了解……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，署長，召委已經站起來了，你沒有辦法自圓其說，我只講兩點：第一，總統有維安的高規格，本席不反對，任何人都有機會當總統，當了總統，就是中華民國的代表，就應該有高規格的維安，但是絕對不是無限上綱，更不是一個員警可以拿錯誤的法條去恐嚇人民。第一，他明明在執勤的時候就使用錯誤的法條；第二，如果像你剛剛講的，員警用錯誤的法條，然後你要對員警再教育的話，那要一體適用、要講清楚，不能因人設事啊！"],["張署長榮興：委員，我們一定一體適用。"],["洪委員孟楷：不能因人設事啊！看到辦藍不辦綠是過去大家覺得最荒謬的事情，不要讓民眾覺得現在臺灣是警察國家。"],["張署長榮興：絕對不會，一定是依法啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：署長，錯誤的法條不要濫用，你剛剛已經講了，仁武分局也改口了，關於這件事情，我不知道你有沒有看過影片。"],["張署長榮興：有看過，電視上有播。"],["洪委員孟楷：你有看過，你就更清楚明白本席要強調的重點，不是拿法條出來背幾條就可以恐嚇人民，連署長被問到的時候都不知道法條內容，我不知道一般民眾怎麼樣能夠信服警察的執勤，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164396","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164396","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1ba3060de95fc8259610dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d2e54a6599b840bfc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:15:51 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所以我就問你標準在哪裡那我今天公開報案啊今天我公開報案嘛那我們就受理對不對這才是要處理的事情啊"},{"start":148.257,"end":173.091,"text":"不是嗎很嚴肅耶當初賴清德氣得不得了啊正告蔡英文啊不要動用國家機器啊賴清德在講什麼他不就在講這個嗎而且我為什麼說有海外資金這當然有海外資金啊我們現在的國安局行政院發言人李慧芝甚至包括劉四方部長都出來講這個海外資金我鐵證都貼出來啦"},{"start":180.407,"end":207.789,"text":"在外面有一個開賣群島的紙上公司欸匯了8億多給淨州刊欸這個是鐵打石的海外資金欸那這個紙上公司怎麼匯了2800多萬美金可以匯給淨州刊借款更有趣的是每一年借但是都不用還這貪為觀止啊哇 這個紙上公司真的是大發慈悲啊每一年借錢 每一年借 但都不用還"},{"start":209.349,"end":227.126,"text":"然後已經累積了新台幣8億多了這個有沒有去追查這才是海外資金嘛你要去看這個紙上公司的背後是不是有中共啊有沒有中資啊有沒有港資啊是不是紅色的力量把錢灌進去啊這個該不該查 來請署長"},{"start":231.151,"end":258.354,"text":"這個如果說是不是有沒有牽涉到這一些的中資港資的這種狀況那如果說有報案的立案我們就會立案來查這有人報案嗎目前沒有報案那一樣我今天公開今天公開告發我今天公開告發嘛這樣子就很清楚了嘛委員如果告發我們就來受理好來受理這一定要查啦太嚴重了這才是海外資金嘛那最後一個"},{"start":259.471,"end":279.87,"text":"你自己好像也是受害人嘛你跑去芳名館跟萬華芳名館的角頭黃清源跑去吃魚翅宴結果那個鏡頭也出來了嘛這個鏡頭出來以署長你的認知我知道啦你那時候解釋過因為你那時候是局長要升署長有人發黑函嘛"},{"start":280.919,"end":305.396,"text":"跟委員報告 這個上次委員解釋很清楚這個是一個情務上議員事件情務上的一個我瞭解署長你不用擔心這個是臨時來 而且是有報備的是是是 好署長你不用擔心這個鏡頭啊 來來來 署長請您看一下你常年擔任警察的鏡頭啊這個鏡頭是從什麼地方來的這個照片從什麼地方來的應該監視器應該監視器 誰可以掉監視器"},{"start":309.156,"end":330.216,"text":"誰可以調監視器 應該警察才能調監視器嘛我這樣講有沒有錯如果說 不知道 應該他因為這是業者啦 怎麼會出去了可能要調查對啊 這要調查啊 這很嚴肅啊如果有中共的境外勢力要影響我們中華民國警政署署長的人選"},{"start":331.377,"end":355.312,"text":"那境外的勢力去介入啊 然後可以讓我們的警政系統把這個路邊的監視器的照片都搞出來 給特定的媒體去爆料這不是路邊的啦 這不是公家 這是私人的那一樣嘛 這餐廳的 對啊 所以你要想你是不是被攝取啊人家找你去那邊吃飯 然後餐廳的業者拍起來拍起來再把監視器的畫面提供給別人 你有想過你會被攝取嗎"},{"start":357.383,"end":372.823,"text":"我想都有可能 不要去假設這個啦對嘛 既然都有可能 不要去假設這個 這個要不要查你要不要查這個餐廳背後是不是有中共的資金這個就境外敵對勢力耶 針對你個人耶 這很嚴重耶 這要不要查"},{"start":373.769,"end":400.209,"text":"好 署長好 這個我們來瞭解不用瞭解 一樣我今天公開告發這一定要查清楚啊誰這樣搞你背後是不是有中共唆使這件事情太嚴肅了啦因為我老實跟署長講啦這個畫面媒體出來以前就有人跟我檢舉了我看報導 我就想說奇怪我認識的張榮鑫不是這種人啊對 沒錯啦因為我在吹哨者協會的時候你有來找我嗎"},{"start":401.05,"end":417.205,"text":"那是為了調查88會館的事情嗎我已經提供這個訊息了對啊希望我提供資料給你們嘛是依照我提供的資料你們警戒裡面也做了處分嘛對所以對嘛做民政的這個調查啊對啊所以是你因為跟我合作所以被盯上嗎"},{"start":418.366,"end":440.555,"text":"你尷尬啊 不能這樣假設沒有沒有 我跟你講現在媒體說故事的程度齁已經到了什麼故事都可以講了不要 不要在臆測這種事情你講得非常的好啊現在就一天到晚的綠媒在臆測這些事嘛所以很重要我幫你報不平我告發 查清楚誰洩漏出去的 就判到底這樣好不好好 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時15分）謝謝主席，是不是麻煩有請內政部的常次跟警政署的署長？"],["主席：常次跟署長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好、署長好。今天內政部提出來，針對有關於避免境外勢力，境外勢力可能包括敵對、不敵對跟它的協力者，會不會影響我們的國家安全、我們中央政府機關的首長？這是一個非常嚴肅而重要的問題。第一個，經濟部部長跟AIT官員在餐會，這很重要，這是臺美關係、非常私密的聚會啊！私密到安排至經濟部部長郭智輝自己企業集團開的餐廳。結果餐敘的照片，外面有一個狗仔集團在那邊拍，全部都登在鏡週刊。我所掌握到的狀況，那一天就是鏡週刊的狗仔集團在那邊跟，這件事情內政部跟國安局有沒有作為？內政部有沒有作為？這個事情有調查嗎？有還是沒有就好。今天我的問題很多，時間很短。有調查還是沒有調查、有沒有立案？有還是沒有？"],["張署長榮興：這個案目前還在偵查中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以有立案？"],["張署長榮興：對，偵查中。"],["黃委員國昌：告發人是誰？告訴人，是有人告訴、告發，還是檢察官剪報分案？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分因為是偵查中的案件，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，有立案就好！"],["張署長榮興：有立案。"],["黃委員國昌：有立案我一定會追結果。那個時候，賴清德2019年跑到裡面的辦公室跟幾個臺南的立委會面，一樣被拍啊！又是鏡週刊！總統候選人耶！跟臺南的立委碰面，叫他挺他、出來對抗蔡英文，結果又是鏡週刊跟拍！這個事情有沒有立案調查？"],["張署長榮興：這個案子目前沒有資料。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼會沒有資料？這個公開的資訊，拍成這個樣子！"],["張署長榮興：不是，我的意思就是這個案，目前我們沒有受理人家這樣的報案。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所以我就問你標準在哪裡？那我今天公開報案啦！今天我公開報案嘛！"],["張署長榮興：好，那我們就受理。"],["黃委員國昌：對不對？這才是要處理的事情，不是嗎？很嚴肅耶！當初賴清德氣得不得了，正告蔡英文，不要動用國家機器啊！賴清德在講什麼，他不就在講這個嗎？而且我為什麼說到海外資金，這當然有海外資金哪！我們現在的國安局、行政院發言人李慧芝，甚至包括劉世芳部長都出來講，這個海外資金，我把鐵證都貼出來了。在外面有一個開曼群島的紙上公司，扣了八億多給鏡週刊，這個是鐵打實的海外資金！這個紙上公司怎麼會有兩千八百多萬美金可以匯給鏡週刊借款？更有趣的是，每一年借，但是都不用還，嘆為觀止！哇！這個紙上公司真的是大發慈悲，每一年借錢，每一年借但都不用還，然後已經累積新臺幣八億多了，這個有沒有去追查？這才是海外資金嘛！你要去看這個紙上公司的背後是不是有中共啊！有沒有中資、有沒有港資、是不是紅色的力量把錢灌進去啊！這該不該查？請署長。"],["張署長榮興：有沒有牽涉到一些中資、港資的這種狀況，如果有報案的，我們就會立案來查。"],["黃委員國昌：這個有人報案嗎？"],["張署長榮興：目前沒有報案。"],["黃委員國昌：那一樣，我今天公開告發。我今天公開告發嘛！這樣子就很清楚了嘛！"],["張署長榮興：委員如果告發，我們就會來受理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來受理，這一定要查啦！太嚴重了，這才是海外資金嘛！","最後一個，你自己好像也是受害人，你跑去跟萬華芳明館的角頭黃清源吃魚翅宴，結果那個鏡頭拍到的照片出來了，以署長你的認知，我知道啦！你那時候也解釋過，因為你那時候是局長要升署長，有人發黑函嘛！"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，這個我在上次跟你解釋得很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["張署長榮興：這個是一個在勤務上有議員……"],["黃委員國昌：我了解啦！"],["張署長榮興：是議員有勤務上的一個……"],["黃委員國昌：對，我了解，署長，你不用擔心。"],["張署長榮興：這是臨時來的，而且是有報備的。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，好，署長，你不用擔心。來，署長，請你看一下，你長年擔任警察，你認為這個鏡頭是在什麼地方？這個照片是從什麼地方來的？"],["張署長榮興：應該是監視器。"],["黃委員國昌：應該是監視器，誰可以調監視器？應該是警察才能調監視器嘛！我這樣講有沒有錯？"],["張署長榮興：因為這是業者的，怎麼會出去了，可能要調查。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！這要調查啊！這很嚴肅啊！如果有中共的境外勢力要影響我們中華民國警政署署長的人選，有境外的勢力去介入啊！然後可以讓我們的警政系統把這個路邊監視器的照片都搞出來給特定的媒體去爆料……"],["張署長榮興：這不是路邊的、這不是公家的，這是私人的。"],["黃委員國昌：那一樣嘛！"],["張署長榮興：這是餐廳的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以你要想你是不是被設局啊！人家找你去那邊吃飯，然後餐廳的業者拍起來，再把監視器的畫面提供給別人，你有想過你是被人家設局嗎？"],["張署長榮興：我想都有可能，不要去假設這個啦！"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！既然都有可能，不要去假設這個，那這個要不要查？你要不要查這個餐廳的背後是不是有中共的資金？這個就是境外敵對勢力針對你個人，這很嚴重欸！署長，這要不要查？"],["張署長榮興：這個我們來了解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，不用了解，一樣！我今天公開告發，這一定要查清楚啊！誰這樣搞你，背後是不是有中共唆使？這件事情太嚴肅了！我老實跟署長講，這個畫面在媒體報導出來以前，就有人跟我檢舉了，我看了半天，我就覺得很奇怪，因為我認識的張榮興不是這種人啊！"],["張署長榮興：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：我在吹哨者協會的時候，你有來找我，那時候是為了調查八八會館的事情。"],["張署長榮興：我請委員提供這個訊息。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！就是希望我提供資料給你們。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["黃委員國昌：依照我提供的資料，你們警界裡面也做了處分嘛！"],["張署長榮興：對，也做明正的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！你是因為跟我合作所以被盯上嗎？"],["主席：黃國昌委員，時間到了！"],["張署長榮興：我們不能這樣假設，沒有這種事情啦！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，我跟你講，現在媒體說故事的程度已經到了什麼故事都可以講了。"],["張署長榮興：不要再臆測這種事情。"],["黃委員國昌：你講得非常的好啊！現在就是綠媒一天到晚在臆測這些事嘛！所以很重要，我幫你抱不平，我告發，查清楚是誰洩漏出去的，究辦到底，這樣好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員。","請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b2cb3c674ee7c9aa710dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d2e54a6599b840bfc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:08:45 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黃明昭署長有被跟啊他自己本件事前他也不知道啊他也不知道 那我們有多少署長有被跟啊我覺得這個是一個非常要不得的行為我覺得全國民眾都應該會透氣這一種"},{"start":193.029,"end":207.986,"text":"這個無目標式的這種跟監跟在我後面幾個就要來問你了啦沒有關係 國安局齁有請警政署針對如果查如果有這些跟拍的行為做一個標準的作業那請問警政署接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":211.268,"end":227.604,"text":"這個對於尤其是中央的這一些的這個有我們安全維護的對象的我們是有一套的一個標準作為流程包括警衛人員目前所有警衛人員有沒有回報有可能有被跟監的有沒有回報"},{"start":228.705,"end":237.85,"text":"目前是沒有所以大家都沒發現嗎沒有就是說目前因為這個因為有中央部會首長報案之後我們就啟動這個機制這個機制包括這個警衛的機制或者是作為的流程或者是反應或者是訓練警衛人員有沒有這個加強這些有加強訓練"},{"start":252.817,"end":258.899,"text":"加上這些訓練是加強哪一些訓練我們也想了解一下那當然就是說你比如檢驗檢驗員就是執行過程當中可能要上車下車周遭或者是有沒有這些追跟的這個車輛會去做注意那可能就是說這個車輛你可以從後面有沒有車輛在跟這樣的一個狀況的一個反應跟機制的一個處理"},{"start":277.987,"end":302.725,"text":"好 謝謝 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這個委員的論調是對的就是頭誰在操縱這些外籍移工 沒錯 沒錯不管是台灣的這個操縱者或是國外的操縱者 是這個都是一個源頭 那也是我們偵查的最主要的一個重點那我們這個偵查的這個狀況的這個目前的這個結果我們是不是會有給委員來做一個參考 好"},{"start":187.879,"end":212.138,"text":"麻烦你但是我最近也收到很多就是说关于这一块所以你们也有真的是来去做但是你们只要怀疑余力这个账户就很多新住民的账户他们就被冻结冻了半年一年但是完全也没有警察来找他们去做笔录没有他们全部冻结"},{"start":212.665,"end":235.915,"text":"所以我現在最近有收到是這樣子所以我希望的是說你們要去抓但是抓頭但是不能說餘力因為我們現在就覺得移工啊這些他們就會有犯罪的嫌疑你們就凍結他們的賬戶但是這個是不是數據你們真真的要去找出來這個部分我們要要求的"},{"start":236.277,"end":255.51,"text":"好第二個就是說在請教你因為現在很多新住民移工他們的語言不通所以資訊也不足所以根本沒有了解台灣的法律還有刑者所以結果犯罪集團就利用又當他們就是資訊的中介或者是傳遞一些資訊不足網路用跨境的網路你剛才有講"},{"start":263.935,"end":280.395,"text":"所以我们目前有没有针对这种就是利用的风险刚才我也问你但是你说有数据但是说我们希望的是说建立防堵的机制还有具体的预防这样子的话才真正的达到这个目标"},{"start":281.294,"end":302.948,"text":"好跟委員報告就是對於這個外籍工因為有各國的外籍工因為語言的問題我們也大概就是會把這些這個法律的這些相關的這個規定也有透過這些相關的移工的還有這些的團體或者是仲介公司的這些團體來做一個來做一個宣導跟施教那我想這個部分就是說有具體還是說請大家就是做一個宣傳還是說只是說啊就是呃發一個傳單"},{"start":312.174,"end":334.642,"text":"風險的教育還有說警示的宣傳不能只是一個傳單中文的傳單這個部分大概不是只有透過檢證包括移民署的這些的相關的主管機關或勞動部的這一些的相關機關對於這個外籍到台灣來工作的這些相關法律上的一個教育訓練跟宣導這個都會做"},{"start":336.223,"end":363.656,"text":"好所以我們希望就是不要再讓弱勢族群變成就是犯罪體系的替罪羊所以我們要請我們的署長跨部會的整個治安的方案不管是剛才你說的移民署勞動部警政署還是法務部我們要共同來去推共同來去看說法律的部分讓大家了解"},{"start":364.136,"end":393.46,"text":"因為現在犯罪集團用各種方式之前我有質詢你的時候我也說拜託你你看看這些數據都是你們說的都是這些人要怎麼樣去有這樣的的數據但是問題在我們看到就是警政署報告的時候在2024年12月我們中央警政署大學發表的一個研究新住民在台"},{"start":394.179,"end":418.871,"text":"收刑事及行政處罰的樣態 違反政策的研究內容指出新住民涉及刑事案件時 往往被社會貼標籤 就是容易犯罪的標籤這種現象不僅是造成污名化 也造成就是社會長期對新住民的"},{"start":419.932,"end":441.088,"text":"刻板印象所以目前社會輿論與媒體報導常就是說因為外籍移工犯罪的機率印象比較高所以放大這樣子的一個負面所以導致就是擴散所以我們希望說在這樣子的公布犯罪的數據時我們的署長一定要去謹慎還有發言的時候避免大眾就是產生這樣子的誤會"},{"start":448.593,"end":463.765,"text":"好 没有问题所以因为我们看到的就是他很详细就是从2007年我们的警察大学他看的超过200案件"},{"start":467.247,"end":493.565,"text":"好 再給我一分鐘所以我希望說就是說在在涉這樣子的新住民的問題不會造成治安的問題但是呢在報導那中就說新住民犯罪多治安惡化的說法這個是無實際的基礎所以希望我們的署長有沒有要主動澄清因為我們看報告還有"},{"start":495.966,"end":512.527,"text":"澄清說我們要跟媒體公布我們就先到說這個我們要納入教育體系但是你們也不能說別人的報告說你們的報告就是移工新住民因為不懂所以造成治安的問題"},{"start":513.257,"end":539.575,"text":"但是台灣這邊有那麼多的數據對不對台灣本國人涉及公共危險罪高達五萬九千八百二十六件毒品犯罪案者有四萬七千五百二十件這些都不會成為本國的治安惡化嗎所以我希望我們的署長再回我你會不會對媒體就是要去"},{"start":543.637,"end":560.684,"text":"要去主動澄清說他們新住民不是因為新住民犯罪惡化成為我們的國家治安的問題委員我特別強調我們對於這些的犯罪你們不會標籤化我們絕對不會標籤化好最後就是做一個結論好我最後一個結論我已經兩分鐘了大家恭喜"},{"start":572.268,"end":576.409,"text":"是同仁OK OK我們希望我們今天不是說誰講話大聲或者是說我們要執行我們是找出問題解決問題因為我們每個人執行的時間我們執行的時間真的是有限但是我們希望解決問題"},{"start":592.015,"end":613.313,"text":"我們希望我們署長要來一個明確還有是有規劃的一份資料給我可以嗎因為我們希望解決問題犯罪集團利用新住民移工但是我們署長我一直強調你要有一個新住民防詐的"},{"start":615.37,"end":615.811,"text":"團隊來去解決問題真正採取的問題不是只是問題是解決問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時51分）謝謝主席。有請署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：署長好。再請教你一下，在臺灣的失聯移工目前已經超過8萬人，警察署統計包含失聯移工在內，從2013年的1,174件到2022年已達到4,160件，10年來增加超過3倍，涉案移工累積超過2萬人，雖然法律刑責已經加重，但臺灣本國犯罪者為了避免風險，已經逐漸不再親自涉案，而是改為招募外籍人士來替他們執行高風險的任務，這種狀態實質上已經形成一種由臺籍犯罪的代理者來承擔風險。警政署是不是已經掌握這種代理型的犯罪趨勢？有沒有具體的防堵策略，防止犯罪集團利用外籍人士來成為替罪的工具？對於幕後的本土主謀有沒有專案偵辦以及掌握數據？這不只是治安的問題，更是司法與人權保障的漏洞，署長，可以有這個數據嗎？"],["張署長榮興：委員講的很有道理，就是對於國內有沒有這些操縱者，甚至是跟國外的這些操縱者去對接，讓外籍移工可以到臺灣來從事各類型的犯罪，有關這個部分，對於外籍人士在臺灣犯罪，我們是作為偵辦的重點。尤其在這個犯罪案例裡面，現在比較明顯的就是，外籍人士在臺灣從事詐欺的工作，甚至是盜領、盜伐林木，我們發現現在這兩個趨勢比較明顯。我們現在也是朝臺灣在籍的人士是否為操縱集團在偵查，我們也有偵查到相關的案例，如果委員需要，事後我們再提供。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你有數據嘛！對不對？你是有數據的。"],["張署長榮興：我們事後再提供給委員做參考。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["張署長榮興：其實這個就是要抓「頭」，委員的論調是對的，就是「頭」是誰在操縱這些外籍移工。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯。"],["張署長榮興：不管是臺灣的操縱者或是國外的操縱者，這個都是一個源頭，那也是我們偵查最主要的重點。偵查的狀況、目前的結果，我們是不是會後提供給委員參考？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，麻煩你。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我最近也收到很多有關這一塊的投訴，你們也有真的去做，但是只要你們有懷疑或疑慮這個帳戶，很多新住民的帳戶就被凍結，凍結半年或1年，但是完全都沒有警察來找他們去做筆錄，都沒有，他們的帳戶就全部被凍結，我最近收到的投訴是這個樣子。我希望的是，你們要抓，但是要抓「頭」，不能一有疑慮、因為我們現在都覺得這些移工有犯罪的嫌疑，你們就凍結他們的帳戶，但是這個不是只有數據，你們要真的去把原因找出來，這個部分是我們要求的。","第二個，再請教你，現在有很多的新住民、移工，因為語言不通，資訊也不足，所以根本不瞭解臺灣的法律和刑責，結果犯罪集團就利用他們因為資訊傳遞的不足，充為跨境、網路犯罪的中介。這個你剛才有講，所以目前我們有沒有針對這種被利用的風險？這個部分我剛才也有問你，你說有數據，但是我們希望的是要建立防堵的機制，還有具體的預防，這樣才能真正的達到這個目標。"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，國內有各國的外籍移工，因為語言的問題，我們會把相關的法律規定，透過相關的移工團體或是仲介公司宣導跟施教。我想這個部分就是……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以有具體的嗎？"],["張署長榮興：有。"],["麥委員玉珍：還是請大家做宣傳？還是只是發一個傳單？"],["張署長榮興：不是只有傳單，這個部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：要做風險的教育，還有警示的宣傳，不能只發一個傳單，中文的傳單，這樣子效果不大。"],["張署長榮興：對，這個部分當然不是只有透過警政，還包括移民署相關的主管機關，或勞動部相關的機關，對於外籍移工到臺灣來工作等相關法律上的教育訓練及宣導，這些我們都會做。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我們希望不要再讓弱勢族群變成犯罪體系的替罪羊，我們要請署長提出跨部會的治安方案，不管是你剛才說的移民署、勞動部、警政署，還有法務部，我們要共同推動，要讓大家都可以瞭解法律，因為現在犯罪集團利用各種方式……之前我質詢你的時候，我就曾拜託你，你看這些數據都是你們說的。我們看到在2024年12月由中央警察大學發表的研究報告「新住民在臺受刑事及刑政處罰之樣態之預防策略之研究」，其內容指出「新住民涉及刑事案件時往往被社會貼標籤」，也就是「容易犯罪」的標籤，這種現象不僅造成污名化，也造成社會長期對新住民的刻版印象，所以目前社會輿論與媒體報導常常會有外籍移工犯罪的機率比較高的印象，而放大、擴散負面的形象，所以我們希望在公布犯罪數據時，署長一定要謹慎，另外發言的時候也要避免社會大眾產生這樣的誤會。"],["張署長榮興：好，沒問題，這部分沒問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個部分很詳細，從2007年以來警察大學已經看過超過200個案件。"],["主席：麥委員，時間到了。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我知道，再給我1分鐘。"],["主席：好，1分鐘。"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望在設這樣的新住民問題時，不會造成治安的問題，報導中說「新住民犯罪多造成治安惡化」的說法沒有實際的基礎。署長有沒有要主動澄清？因為我們看報告還有……要澄清並跟媒體公布跟宣導。這個我們要納入教育體系，但是你們也不能說因為別人的報告或你們的報告指移工新住民因為不懂，所以造成治安的問題，臺灣這邊有那麼多的數據，臺灣本國人涉及公共危險罪高達5萬9,826件，毒品犯罪者有4萬7,520件，這些都不會成為本國治安惡化的原因嗎？所以，我希望我們的署長再回我，你會不會主動對媒體澄清他們新住民不是因為新住民犯罪惡化成為我們國家治安的問題。"],["張署長榮興：委員，我特別強調，我們對於這些的犯罪不會標籤化了……"],["主席：署長！"],["張署長榮興：我們絕對不會標籤化。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，最後就是做一個結論……"],["主席：委員，時間到了。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我最後做一個結論。"],["主席：我已經給你兩分了，大家都一視同仁，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：OK，我們希望我們今天不是說誰講話大聲，或者是說我們要質詢，我們是找出問題、解決問題。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["主席：沒有，你要尊重，不要說大聲小聲，誰跟你大聲小聲？"],["麥委員玉珍：我們質詢的時間真的是有限，但是我們希望解決問題。"],["主席：有限也不能你特別，尊重主席一下，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝、謝謝。我們希望署長提供一個明確還有是有規劃的一份資料給我，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為我們希望真正的解決問題。犯罪集團利用新住民移工，但是我們署長，我一直強調，你要有一個新住民防詐的團隊來去解決問題……"],["主席：麥委員……"],["麥委員玉珍：真正才能解決問題，不是質詢問題，是解決問題。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥委員質詢。","現在請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164392","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164392","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1ba6f1a4c77edf922810dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d2a2be613e28a423535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:45:26 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國內為什麼不能製造國內是可以製造只是交惡素的對啦 就是說對啦 就是說這個交惡素有沒有達到殺傷力的一個結果對啦那既然它是管制的對不對不是一般人可以拿的吧 對不對對那如果不是一般人可以拿的為什麼一定要進口"},{"start":188.584,"end":208.857,"text":"那國內的這個部位是不是請我們那個主管機關來做一個說明委員好跟委員報告因為我們目前的法令規定也是政策規定就是國內的空氣槍的製造這個都知道的不要浪費時間它可以製造零組件外銷但是不能在國內完整的一支槍在國內販售"},{"start":210.426,"end":228.161,"text":"我知道 所以現在喔 法令是這樣 對不對那我們這些喔 打濾淚系的什麼這些啊那你知道現在都是哪一個國家的目前濾淚系的不是林保署喔我知道是林保署的啊 既然有管制啊 對不對都是哪個國家的 你知道嗎"},{"start":230.03,"end":248.524,"text":"槍支喔大部分都從國外進口但我們沒有去限制他國家我問你啊實際上是哪個國家大概他們有的是從以色列或者是美國都有你亂講你去查一下吧打綠列西的這些幾乎都是從中國進口的比較多吧"},{"start":250.327,"end":276.417,"text":"林務局的目前他們都使用就是他有申請核准的是空氣影響跟生產墻你要想清楚你才回答喔幾乎很多都是從中國耶你知道嗎 這我們了解好不好這我們委員我們來了解對嘛 你要想清楚再回答在這裡你這樣給我隨便回答我們來了解實際進口的我只有一個"},{"start":277.697,"end":293.292,"text":"你既然這個是要從國外進口這怎麼有殺傷力的那你如果造成這樣子全部都是中國進口你覺得這樣子合理嗎對我們的敵對勢力然後你用他們的槍這樣子合理嗎這不可以 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但是還是第一時間但是第一時間還是會對 我們詐騙的案件就算是破案那其實對民眾最在乎的是我能不能拿回我被詐騙的金額那破案的這個部分當然這個不是只有警政署內政部還有牽涉到警管會還有訴發部相關的這個問題但是我覺得應該是要跨部會的去整合把這個問題解決那當然我想剛剛講到這個詐騙案件 你知道嗎"},{"start":260.273,"end":269.781,"text":"就今年五月賴總統上任一週年的時候的民調顯示民眾對於政府打詐的表現不滿不滿意度高達53%所以也就是因為詐騙案件的關係讓賴總統的不滿意度這個針對這個打詐的不滿意度高達53%那我們今年編了這麼多打詐的預算打詐的經費其實就希望能夠針對打詐的部分我們要有所"},{"start":285.559,"end":291.404,"text":"這個成績出來那我想還有今年還有四個月的時間希望警政署針對這個部分要好好的來去針對詐騙的部分我們要怎麼去"},{"start":295.069,"end":311.963,"text":"整合各部會大家共同來努力讓民眾有感讓民眾真正的免於這個詐騙的一個威脅那尤其是我想最近大家大概非常覺得震驚的就是我們在台北車站的光天化日之下居然有被性侵這樣子的一個的問題產生所以大家都在講以前觀光客來到台灣"},{"start":316.407,"end":322.873,"text":"覺得最滿意的就是台灣的安全大家覺得台灣是一個非常安全的地方結果我們居然是在台北車站的這個大廳裡面居然被公然性侵我們的馬籍的遊客而且是10分鐘居然沒有人發現所以到底是哪個環節出了問題然後我們現在台北車站長期這個存在的聚眾飲酒滋擾還有脫序的行為"},{"start":341.631,"end":364.017,"text":"請問一下台鐵跟鐵路警察之間的通報跟處理的機制是什麼好那現在分做兩個部分第一個部分就是說鐵路警察跟台鐵的戰方跟這個保全這三方面是要去做這個相關的一個聯繫顯然是沒有那未來要怎麼做那現在就是要再增加密度了"},{"start":364.597,"end":366.599,"text":"10分鐘耶如果今天到一個這麼重要的一個台北火車站的一個大廳居然被公然性侵然後10分鐘沒有人有任何的這個反應我覺得這個發生了很大的問題所以可能針對這個部分請署長一定要"},{"start":382.611,"end":406.981,"text":"去嚴格的去追究相關的責任而且重點是要怎麼預防未來的發生那當然就是還有剛講的這個聚眾飲酒的問題也確實存在問題尤其是這一件並不是皆有而是一個通緝犯那通緝犯居然可以在這麼這麼重要的一個地方來做這樣的事情我覺得他就是挑戰我們的挑戰公然挑戰我們的公權力這個我們以後會加強來做 請署長要針對這個部分一定要把這個相關的一個"},{"start":410.905,"end":417.279,"text":"未來要怎麼來去做的一個相關處置一定要做出一個報告那也希望一週之內送到本席的辦公室好的 沒有問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時37分）謝謝召委，請內政部吳堂安次長及警政署張署長。"],["主席：我們請張署長跟吳次長。"],["吳次長堂安：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：次長好、署長好。請教一下次長跟署長，根據警政署剛剛的報告，110年來全國治安滿意度的調查資料顯示，民眾對住家跟社區治安的滿意度高達九成以上。我想請教一下，針對全國治安的滿意度呢？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，全國的部分大概有百分之五十一左右。"],["許委員宇甄：好像有很大的落差，但在你們的報告裡面好像也沒有呈現出來。"],["張署長榮興：全國性的治安是全體性的感覺，現在因為各縣市或者各社區對於治安感受的滿意度，這個都是比較主觀的狀況，而全國性的情形，在調查的過程當中，可能也會因為個案的狀況，影響到全國主觀意識的感受。"],["許委員宇甄：不過，署長，我們在做民調的時候，基本上應該都要重視全國民意的感受，尤其我看到九成以上的治安滿意度。我有做了一個統計表，請署長看一下，其實從110年1月到8月的68.73%的滿意度，到目前為止，全部都是不及格，尤其是今年上半年的滿意度是51.32%，還比（去）113年下半年的51.90%還要低，所以其實治安滿意度是下滑的，而不是像我們現在報告所呈現出來的，有九成以上的滿意度。今天跟署長正式提到這樣的問題，我覺得不是要去追究，而是要看未來要怎麼去解決這樣的問題。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：當然，為什麼會造成這樣的問題，我覺得可能詐騙占了一個很大的部分，我想我們一般民眾的感受度，針對詐騙，我相信在座的各位，不管是你本人、你的親友，面對詐騙其實比比皆是，我自己都常常接到詐騙集團的電話，可是說實在連我們民意代表，連我們立法委員都沒有辦法去杜絕這樣的狀況，更何況一般的百姓。所以你可以看到，光今年度的1到9月份，我們詐騙的案件數已經高達13萬4,716件，財損的金額到706億，請問一下署長，針對這樣的打詐成果，您覺得滿意嗎？"],["張署長榮興：當然不是說完全滿意。也跟委員報告，從去年到現在的狀況，這個趨勢我們每日都有公布儀表板，這個趨勢是在往下降的。"],["許委員宇甄：往下降是降多少？"],["張署長榮興：以這個來講，目前件數大概降22%，財損差不多降44%左右，也就是簡單的道理……"],["許委員宇甄：但是破案的……"],["張署長榮興：比如講像去年的8月，每天大概是在七百多件的詐騙件數、財損大概四點多億，現在約四百多件、財損兩億左右，以這樣的一個趨勢……"],["許委員宇甄：不過，署長，可能我們現在對詐騙案件的統計跟破案率，我們自己給得太寬鬆了，因為民眾對詐騙的感受其實是非常深惡痛絕，而且都覺得即使被詐騙了、就算破案了，錢也追不回來，這個是目前大家普遍的感受。"],["張署長榮興：現在我們有很多努力的方向，有時候類似詐騙被害人的返還，有一些就是銀行的或者是虛擬貨幣的，這個部分如果是圈存的，很快就會返還。我們比較……"],["許委員宇甄：返還的比例呢？很低吧！"],["張署長榮興：比例當然不是很高，但是第一時間還是會退回來。"],["許委員宇甄：對，返還的比例很低，等於我們詐騙的案件就算是破案……其實民眾最在乎的是能不能拿回我被詐騙的金額。"],["張署長榮興：對，破案的這個部分，有些是地檢署……"],["許委員宇甄：當然這個不是只有警政署、內政部，還有牽扯到金管會、數發部相關的問題……"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["許委員宇甄：但是我覺得應該是要跨部會的去整合，把這個問題解決。當然，我想剛剛講到詐騙案件，你知道嗎？今年5月賴總統上任一週年的民調顯示，民眾對於政府打詐的表現不滿度高達53%，也就是因為詐騙案件的關係，讓民眾對賴總統針對打詐的不滿意度高達53%，我們今年編了這麼多打詐的預算、打詐的經費，其實就是希望能夠針對打詐的部分要有成績出來。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我想今年還有4個月的時間，希望警政署針對詐騙的部分要怎麼整合各部會，大家共同努力讓民眾有感、讓民眾真正能免於被詐騙的威脅。","我想最近大家覺得非常震驚的就是在臺北車站光天化日之下，居然有人被性侵這樣子的一個問題產生。大家都在講以前觀光客來到臺灣，覺得最滿意的就是臺灣的安全，大家覺得臺灣是一個非常安全的地方，結果在臺北車站的大廳裡面居然有馬籍遊客公然被性侵，而且是10分鐘居然沒有人發現，所以到底是哪個環節出了問題？現在臺北車站長期存在的聚眾飲酒、滋擾，還有脫序的行為，請問一下臺鐵跟鐵路警察之間的通報跟處理的機制是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：現在分作兩個部分，第一個部分就是鐵路警察跟臺鐵的站方、跟保全三方面要做相關的聯繫和勤務……"],["許委員宇甄：顯然是沒有嘛！未來要怎麼做？"],["張署長榮興：本來是有，現在就是要再增加密度。"],["許委員宇甄：10分鐘欸！今天在一個這麼重要的臺北火車站大廳居然有人被公然性侵，然後10分鐘沒有人有任何反映，我覺得這個發生了很大的問題，所以針對這個部分，請署長一定要嚴格追究相關的責任，而且重點是要怎麼預防未來的發生！當然還有剛剛講的聚眾飲酒的問題，也確實存在。尤其這一件並不是街友，而是一個通緝犯，通緝犯居然可以在這麼重要的一個地方做這樣的事情，我覺得他就是公然挑戰我們的公權力。"],["張署長榮興：這個我們以後會加強做這方面的盤查。"],["許委員宇甄：請署長針對這個部分未來要怎麼做的相關處置，一定要做出一個報告，也希望一週之內送到本席的辦公室。謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：好的，沒有問題。"],["主席：謝謝，感謝許宇甄委員質詢。","請張宏陸委員質詢。","在這裡我要跟署長說，剛才許宇甄委員說到這件事情，長久以來這有一個盲點，我如果要坐高鐵回去嘉義，時間充足的時候我會去上面逛，所以這個可能要和當地政府單位社會局處合作，雖然他是通緝犯，但是百姓在那邊常常吵吵鬧鬧、喝酒，在那邊鬧，大家看起來會以為是流浪漢在吵架，所以喪失了這個機會。說實在的，我們現在面子不知道要放在哪裡，全世界都在笑我們，所以不是只有你們單位而已，大家要合作讓臺灣的名聲不要這樣，這樣實在很難看，以上。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["主席：不好意思，我們請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164390","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164390","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1ba4e706af195f5eb610dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d2c2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:29:58 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護照或其他的國籍我想這個部分是說參政是第一個的部分如果一旦你選上了你就要去檢附這個你並沒有具大陸的戶籍跟護照的一個身份那這個也是"},{"start":296.069,"end":323.936,"text":"我們的規定現在目前就是朝這個方式來處理好 謝謝次長齁其實次長剛剛講到一個今天我剛剛等一下要問到的一個重點喔因為陸委會最近的新聞也特別提出了就是您說的喔只要拒絕就是放棄戶籍跟護照的聲明就有參政權那就剛你們當時提的說要取得放棄大陸國籍證明這個沒有辦法取得的資料是背道而馳的所以現在這個內政部是支持陸委會的想法嗎"},{"start":324.901,"end":341.899,"text":"是不是说以后不用再取据这个过去拿不到的放弃中国大陆国籍证明因为根本就取得不到这样的资料嘛所以现在以后内政部也同意陆委会的看法是不是只要拒绝了以后他们的参政权下一次选举就可以回复跟委员报告拒绝只是他一个参政的一个说明而已"},{"start":342.259,"end":367.262,"text":"如果他一旦選上了扶公職那就還是要回到國際法20條的規定我想這個是很明確的這個可以讓他參與跟市長報告陸委會為什麼會發這個聲明的原因其實就是要打臉內政部啊你就是用兩岸人民關係條例去放棄戶籍以及這個這個護照就可以啦你叫他取得一個完全的沒辦法取得的這個證明喔其實是他們是沒有辦法去這是我認為這是用"},{"start":369.082,"end":396.833,"text":"行政手段要來達成政治目的的一個做法這個是不是再請次長你再解釋一下好不好我想跟委員報告我們跟陸委會是合作關係是沒有問題的並沒有什麼互相打臉的問題那我想回到只要你擔任國家的公職就不可以有你就不可以有中華民國以外的國籍我想這個在國籍法20條就講得很清楚我這邊再提醒次長一下其實大陸是就我了解是不允許雙重國籍所以他在台灣已經宣誓"},{"start":397.523,"end":424.449,"text":"用台灣的身份他是台灣的公民要來參選的話其實對外的宣示其實就已經有具有達到他放棄這個對岸的這個國籍的證明這本行的意見所以拜託市長這邊再想想看是不是針對我們自己的已經來到這麼久居住在台灣的這些陸配來去幫他們想想看有沒有方法可以來做解套好不好好謝謝"},{"start":426.638,"end":426.658,"text":"好 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抓完之後還收押請問署長啊 這麼多奇怪其實從政治攻防的角度來看 這都政治口水嘛對不對 他罵我們 我們罵北檢 民眾激情的民眾等等 都是一個這樣的樣態啊但為什麼有些人就辦了 有些人不了了之呢署長你們這辦的標準是什麼 你們現在辦的概況是什麼說明一下我想就是這樣 我要稍微說明一下 台灣是一個人權"},{"start":129.602,"end":146.533,"text":"法治跟言論自由社會嘛對不對但是要法治啦那言論自由就是一個核心的就是在保障這個意見的自由的流通啦這個是有充分的這個自我實踐的這種狀況"},{"start":147.634,"end":165.585,"text":"但是這個言論自由不是作為這個散播仇恨跟鼓吹犯罪啦這個基準那我想就是說一定要有這一些的事證跟證據啦事證跟證據就是說可能他的我們那個靈堂的照片都網路上傳瘋了算證據啊但後來不了了之嘛"},{"start":165.785,"end":185.226,"text":"那當然這些案件我們警察大概初步的偵查大概就是會跟地檢署來做一個報指揮來偵辦那來做一個所以還是由地檢署來指揮偵辦對應該都是由地檢署來做指揮偵辦那當然這個偵辦的結果是以地檢署的偵辦的結果做一個結果"},{"start":185.746,"end":198.535,"text":"那未來就是說我們特別要強調就是有一些是有界限的就是說對於散播醜聞或鼓吹犯罪或甚至散貨或者是恐嚇危害這些大概就是有一個過程要件"},{"start":203.718,"end":219.837,"text":"有這個過程要見有達到要見我們當然就是會給地檢署來處理再暴力一點如果今天民眾在網路上或是馬路旁邊如果用我們今天賴清德總統的照片他也辦民主告別式然後說他心中英明神武的賴清德總統已經死了那你們是辦了還是不辦"},{"start":220.973,"end":240.371,"text":"我們當然是看他蒐集證據完之後的狀況就是一樣 跟我們那時候國會的狀況一樣還是如果這個蒐集這個情形這個到底他的動機是要做什麼這個動機如果是有危害性有散戶性有恐嚇性那當然還是會依法來做一個來做一個偵查跟處理"},{"start":241.172,"end":253.696,"text":"我想就是一個基礎點要先去瞭解他的這個對啦 本期要提醒你只有這個事情不可以雙標啦因為你越雙標的時候其實整個社會的言論市場的走位會更極端我想我們的觀念跟做法是會一致啦沒關係 你會整一下啦就是我剛剛講這種政治口水性質的仇恨言論你剛剛講說案量其實不多那你就做個整理嘛然後各項偵辦的進度你剛剛有講到一個點可能是因為地檢署指揮偵辦"},{"start":269.142,"end":284.958,"text":"這強弱有別等等但沒關係我們要把這事情還原啦好不好這麻煩警政署長幫我們準備一下資料那我們要提醒不要上標第二個是這個你們對於收集這些政治口水的管道是什麼這其實本席也算蠻好奇的比如說我們這個網紅館長對不對前一陣子也是講了"},{"start":288.501,"end":316.001,"text":"當然極端言論都是不對的講了對我們賴清德總統不太尊敬的這樣子的話那他當然馬上就被調查了那我想請問這調查的過程裡面當然你們也是配合檢警指揮偵辦嘛 對不對那在這調查裡面你們是模式是什麼呢是你們會主動看這些本來平常就很衝的這些言論然後進行管控跟了解還是說你們是比如說我接到人家檢舉還是我看到新聞它可能變成輿論事件然後我來去做偵辦請問你們在這種"},{"start":317.762,"end":345.05,"text":"在這種你們在避免仇恨言論為前提下的這些監視跟管控的這些措施你們的執行標準是什麼可不可以請署長檢查說明我們不會去做監控跟管制不會主動看嘛我們不會去做這個事情那現在就是說警察是執行這個法律是一個就是執法的一個單位那以館長這個案件來這個案例來講是我們受理民眾的檢舉受理檢舉嘛受理檢舉來做偵辦的"},{"start":346.93,"end":374.188,"text":"這個案件的過程是受理檢舉來做偵辦的所以這就回到其實回到本席剛剛那個問題嘛也就是說好你現在至少在辦案的過程中你要很明確的宣示嘛基本上就不告不理嘛因為每天吵架你也不可能主動處理主動處理也添麻煩對不對所以這不告不理的一個情況之下那就是處理之後一樣回到標準的問題啦本席在這邊簡單做一下結論因為時間有限啦本席希望至少要做到透明要做到負責要做到平等啦"},{"start":374.568,"end":383.104,"text":"尤其是標準要其一啦本期好好等你這一份跟政治口水相關案件的一個調查報告我們再來做後續的討論 可以嗎可以 謝謝 市長辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時23分）謝謝主席，有請張署長。"],["主席（王委員美惠）：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員早。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，臺灣是一個言論自由的社會，尤其是在政治的場域，言論自由往往……其實也不只是臺灣，現在全世界各式各樣的言論逐漸走向極端化，而且越來越出格。像黃捷委員這一陣子也受了很多的委屈，對不對？但是我要問的是，到底那條界限應該畫在哪裡，我希望來討論一下，因為我想這個對警政署來講，其實也是一個滿困擾的議題。你們一年大概收多少這樣的報案？就是政治人物彼此之間的政治口水噴來噴去，不管是網友罵政治人物、政治人物互相罵來罵去還是怎麼樣，你們一年大概有多少這樣的案件要處理？"],["張署長榮興：我想這個倒是還在少數，報案的應該很少。"],["牛委員煦庭：報案的應該很少，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，很少。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然報案的很少，到時候就不會說因為你們的案件實在太多，沒有辦法處理，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：不會，那個報案的不多，很少。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我就很好奇，事實上大家都知道，而且大家心裡都有所不甘啦，都覺得自己被雙重標準對待，比如說我們之前在國會激烈衝突的時候，本席的照片也被放到民主靈堂裡面去，對不對？民眾黨黃國昌總召、立法院韓國瑜院長、本黨的各個立委，我們的遺照都被布置在靈堂、被舉辦告別式，那時候大家也報案了，可是好像這個案子就不了了之了，對不對？可是民眾看不下去，因為北檢辦案很多爭議，所以也把北檢檢察官比照辦理，也幫他辦民主告別式，完蛋！馬上辦！辦完之後馬上抓，抓完之後還收押。請問署長，其實從政治攻防的角度來看，這都是政治口水，對不對？他罵我們，我們罵北檢、激情的民眾等等，都是這樣的樣態，為什麼有些人就辦了、有些人卻不了了之呢？署長，你們辦案的標準是什麼？你們現在辦案的概況是什麼，說明一下。"],["張署長榮興：我想就是這樣，我要稍微說明一下，臺灣是一個人權法治跟言論自由的國家。"],["牛委員煦庭：是言論自由的社會嘛，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：但是要法治啦，言論自由的核心就是在保障意見的自由流通，這個是充分保障了自我實踐，但是言論自由不是作為散播仇恨跟鼓吹犯罪的藉口，這個是基準。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["張署長榮興：我想一定要有這一些的事證跟證據，就是可能它的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們那個靈堂的照片都在網路上傳瘋了，算證據啊！但後來也不了了之。"],["張署長榮興：當然，這些案件我們警察初步偵查，大概就是會報請地檢署指揮偵辦，來做相關的……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以還是由地檢署來指揮偵辦，是不是這樣？"],["張署長榮興：對，應該都是由地檢署來做指揮偵辦，當然這個結果是以地檢署偵辦的結果為準。我們特別要強調的就是有一些是有界限的，就是對於散播仇恨或鼓吹犯罪，甚至是煽惑或者恐嚇、危害這些，有一個構成要件。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["張署長榮興：如果有達成這個構成要件，我們當然就會給地檢署來做處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長，我就問再暴力一點，如果今天民眾在網路上或是馬路旁邊，也用賴清德總統的照片辦民主告別式，然後說他心中英明神武的賴清德總統已經死了，你們是辦還是不辦？"],["張署長榮興：我們當然是看蒐集證據完之後的狀況，適時地進行……"],["牛委員煦庭：跟我們那時候國會的狀況一樣，就擺出來啊！"],["張署長榮興：對，蒐集證據，看到底他的動機是要做什麼，這個動機如果是有危害性、有煽惑性、有恐嚇性，當然還是會依法來做偵查跟處理，我想這就是一個基礎點，要先去了解他符不符合構成要件。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，本席要提醒你的只有這個事情不可以雙標，因為你越雙標的時候，其實整個社會的言論事實上就會更極端，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：我想我們的觀念跟做法會是一致的。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，你彙整一下，就是我剛剛有講的，這種政治口水性質的仇恨言論，你剛剛講說案量其實不多，那你就做個整理，然後還有各項案件偵辦的進度，你剛剛有講到一個點，可能是因為地檢署指揮偵辦強弱有別等等，但沒關係，我們要把這件事情還原，好不好？麻煩警政署長幫我們準備一下資料，我要提醒，不要雙標。"],["張署長榮興：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，你們對於蒐集這些政治口水的管道是什麼？這其實本席也算滿好奇的，比如網紅館長前一陣子也是講了對賴清德總統不太尊敬的話，當然，極端言論都是不對的，他馬上就被調查了。我想請問這個調查過程，當然你們也是配合檢警指揮偵辦，對不對？但是在調查裡面你們的模式是什麼呢？是你們會主動看這些本來平常就很衝的言論，然後進行管控跟了解，還是接到人家檢舉？還是看到新聞，認為它可能變成輿論事件，然後去做偵辦？請問你們在避免仇恨言論為前提下的這些監視跟管控措施，你們的執行標準是什麼？可不可以請署長簡單說明？"],["張署長榮興：我們不會去做監控跟管制。"],["牛委員煦庭：不會主動看嘛？"],["張署長榮興：我們不會去做這個事情，警察是在執行法律，是一個執法單位，以館長這個案例來講，我們是受理民眾的檢舉。"],["牛委員煦庭：受理檢舉嘛。"],["張署長榮興：這個案件的過程是受理檢舉來偵辦的。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這其實就回到本席剛剛那個問題，也就是說，你現在至少很明確地宣示，在辦案的過程中基本上就是不告不理，因為每天吵架你也不可能主動處理，主動處理也添麻煩，對不對？所以在不告不理的情況之下，一樣是回到標準的問題。"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，因為時間有限，本席在這邊簡單做一下結論。本席希望至少要做到透明、負責、平等，尤其是標準要齊一，本席好好等你這一份跟政治口水相關的案件調查報告，我們再來做後續討論，可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝署長，辛苦了！"],["主席：感謝牛煦庭委員。","請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164388","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164388","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b154f307a924b81c110dc7ddeacd8f6da83c966d97180d5d2c2d5238c042452c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:16:37 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以後鄉鄉不知道怎麼去賠錢他們自己也有這個問題 但是我問你們中央單位可以跟地方有什麼合作 讓我抱著嗎"},{"start":266.604,"end":289.458,"text":"我 我想說就是說 這詐騙現在是國人最大的問題中央一定是 跟地方一定是結合那不管是在這個科技 或者是人員的訓練全國是統一一致的 而且是針對詐欺的這個核心的集團在做偵辦我想 就會給大家報告說詐欺案件是會破 不是說不會破"},{"start":289.898,"end":293.982,"text":"我知道啦 我知道你們有看 這是給北市的感覺 覺得說看的時候是覺得很小聲的 做無奈的時候他覺得方便第一時間來報案 來叫領導三天的時候有時候到現在喔 跟當事人連絡也沒有喔"},{"start":314.279,"end":319.343,"text":"市長,這是有的,我們身為一個民意代表,就希望百姓可以更好,跟這個詐騙的問題,真的很嚴重,你們要去處理,何況在家裡吃,家裡吃好大,我不敢說家裡吃很多錢"},{"start":334.853,"end":340.396,"text":"但是他的想法很平凡所以詐騙集團的案件的限制我希望署長要去了解他可以讓地方要怎麼去選擇給人這個詐騙可以減輕再來未來我們的總統、副總統所有的地方市長的案件問題有的改編有的這樣口口叨叨的欺負你也沒辦法給他"},{"start":363.689,"end":372.736,"text":"有啦 有發動啦 不是沒發動啦真的喔來 一定是轉流去防治啦因為我們這是一個國安團隊齁而且我們國內對於總統副總統的這個案子是有準備的你現在如果說沒發動一星期以來 你的沒發動跟我們的詐騙集團跟議區可以拋後多少以上的資料給我好 沒問題好 謝謝王美惠 張偉 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謝主席 我們先請警政署長南加署長"},{"start":8.018,"end":36.655,"text":"委員長蘇珊好 跟您請教一下最近國際上破獲一個這個柬埔寨很多詐騙園區都被解散了那也是因為英國跟美國他們聯合起訴了這個首腦據說叫做陳志的這個首腦那當然我看到令我最驚訝的是這個首腦至今其實出入台灣十次之多那包括台灣的九間公司三位台灣人"},{"start":37.495,"end":59.51,"text":"也都在這個制裁的名單裡面所以我想知道的是台灣在這方面到底有什麼是我們可以做到的包括說這樣子的國際的情資我們有收集到嗎這個城市據說是中國人後來取得柬埔寨籍那後來他也取得非常多的多重國籍在國際上到處爬爬造"},{"start":60.37,"end":63.311,"text":"那來台灣十次了我們有發現這是一個問題人物嗎有發現說其實他在柬埔寨經營多達十個詐騙園區嗎我們打詐打這麼久現在發現了這個首腦竟然來台灣這麼多次"},{"start":76.961,"end":93.491,"text":"委員我們初步從這個資料的這個顯示裡面我們了解這個城市出入台灣大概是在111年以前110年以後就沒有發現到台灣來的這種狀況那這個案件是由美國的"},{"start":94.111,"end":109.037,"text":"司法部跟財政部單方面發起起訴跟制裁的作為那他發布了這個這個發動的這個作為之前是沒有要求我們提供相關的資料那不過這個案件我們有透過FBI主動去做聯繫那這個案子"},{"start":111.758,"end":130.649,"text":"也已經報請台北地檢署檢察官在指揮正辦當中那對於他所提到這個集團裡面的相關的包括他的相關的這個所謂水獎的幾個份子或者是這些公司那我們現在大概都有掌握當中我們會配合警方來做一個偵查"},{"start":131.789,"end":152.444,"text":"好 那我想知道的是像這樣子的人物他出入境的時候我們到底有沒有辦法第一時間偵獲他是一個問題人物然後包括說他使用的護照到底有什麼問題那他這樣子出入境的記錄我們跟海關之間跟國際的這一些情資之間到底有沒有辦法把這個破洞"},{"start":153.485,"end":172.746,"text":"把它補起來應該沒有問題就是說如果這個對象是讓我們事先掌握這種情形他的出入境對於我們跟移民署的這個相關的這個聯繫那入境完之後再從事的這些相關是不是有非核活動我們是有能力去做監控跟處理的"},{"start":173.186,"end":200.337,"text":"好 這個要拜託署長希望這方面因為我認為這是一個對國際上也是對全世界受詐騙在受到非常嚴重的侵害的國家包括最近韓國人也說他們有大概好幾百個人在這個詐騙園區因此釋惑然後回來分享他們的經驗那我認為這個都是非常大的一個進展是的 我們一定會全力來打仗的好 這個拜託署長 謝謝那再來我們請國安局林執行長"},{"start":206.984,"end":234.68,"text":"好 署長可以先回座那跟您請教一下我們國慶日當天中國國安部有發布了一個這個台獨水軍的名單那一個是台灣的軍官另外一個是台灣一個公司的王姓負責人然後中國非常大動作的把這個王姓負責人指控說他長期製作然後宣揚台獨的內容只因為他接過台灣政府的228的展覽還有人權走讀工作坊的標案"},{"start":235.28,"end":252.838,"text":"然後甚至說他是一個集團的首腦然後在南部跟我們長老教會有聯繫然後還介入什麼香港的社會運動等等把它說成是一個國際反中聯盟的核心那我在這邊想請教國安局針對中共這樣子的指控有沒有什麼你有什麼表示嗎"},{"start":256.891,"end":273.012,"text":"向委員報告那個職的專業是特種勤務那有關剛剛委員所提問的問題那我將帶回我們局裡向委員再做報告好謝謝林執行長你就是沒有辦法理解這個意義所在就是了"},{"start":274.315,"end":302.954,"text":"我跟您報告這其實很明顯就是跨境鎮壓他很明顯想要侵害台灣的主權把台灣的這一些我們平常公民的活動把他指控是一個說是一個台獨然後要進行相關的制裁這其實很明顯就是在混淆我們台灣的國安的安全這樣子的跨境鎮壓的行為其實不只是針對台灣中共在世界各國上都是用同樣的手法在進行這樣子"},{"start":304.495,"end":310.077,"text":"逾越主權的方式在侵害他國的這樣子的行為所以我在這邊想要跟我們國安局建議的就是其實美國眾議院他們的國土安全委員會的聽證會上就有建議說美國應該也要來進行跨境鎮壓相關的法案"},{"start":324.042,"end":348.108,"text":"來明確定義說這種跨境鎮壓就是非法行為啊你怎麼可以去跨境鎮壓他國的人民呢那更何況我們在做的只是一個公民運動所以我也認為說國安局是不是應該針對這樣子的內容進行相關的檢討難道這個台獨水軍的案件你們到現在都沒有任何的言議或是任何的作為嗎報告委員"},{"start":351.351,"end":370.857,"text":"那就如果是特種勤務的話本中心對於相關的蒞臨場所勤務都有相關的對維安的一些萬全準備那之所以向委員所提到的這類問題因為不在本中心的專業範圍所以將委員的問題我們將會帶回去給"},{"start":372.503,"end":382.956,"text":"好謝謝林執行長我也是希望說既然今天是國安局派來的代表那我們提的這些案件你們應該都要有基本的掌握好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時9分）好，謝謝主席。我們先請警政署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員早。"],["黃委員捷：署長好。跟您請教一下，最近國際上破獲柬埔寨很多詐騙園區都被解散了，也是因為英國跟美國聯合起訴了據說叫做陳志的這個首腦，當然我看到令我最驚訝的是，這個首腦至今其實出入臺灣10次之多，包括臺灣的9間公司、3位臺灣人也都在這個制裁的名單裡面，所以我想知道的是，臺灣在這方面到底有什麼是我們可以做到的？包括這樣子的國際情資，我們有收集到嗎？這個陳志據說是中國人，後來取得柬埔寨籍，後來他也取得非常多的多重國籍在國際上到處趴趴走，來臺灣10次了，我們有發現這是一個問題人物嗎？有發現其實他在柬埔寨經營多達10個詐騙園區嗎？我們打詐打這麼久，現在發現了這個首腦竟然來臺灣這麼多次。"],["張署長榮興：委員，我們初步從這個資料的顯示裡面，我們了解陳志出入臺灣大概是在111年以前，111年以後就沒有發現他到臺灣來的狀況。這個案件是由美國的司法部跟財政部單方面發起起訴跟制裁的作為，它發動這個作為之前沒有要求我們提供相關的資料，不過這個案件我們有透過FBI主動做聯繫，這個案子也已經報請臺北地檢署檢察官在指揮偵辦當中。對於他所提到這個集團裡面相關的幾個份子或者是這些公司，我們現在大概都有掌握當中，我們會配合檢方偵查。"],["黃委員捷：好，我想知道的是像這樣子的人物，他出入境的時候，我們到底有沒有辦法在第一時間偵獲他是一個問題人物，包括他使用的護照到底有什麼問題？他這樣子的出入境紀錄，我們跟海關、跟國際的情資之間，到底有沒有辦法把這個破洞補起來？"],["張署長榮興：應該沒有問題，如果這個對象是讓我們事先掌握這種情形，他的出入境對於我們跟移民署相關的聯繫，他入境之後所從事的是不是非法活動，我們是有能力去監控跟處理的。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要拜託署長，希望這方面……"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：我認為對國際上、也是對全世界受詐騙侵害非常嚴重的國家而言，包括最近韓國人也說他們有好幾百個人在這個詐騙園區，獲釋之後回來分享他們的經驗，我認為這個都是非常大的進展。"],["張署長榮興：是的，我們一定會全力來打詐。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要拜託署長，謝謝。","再來請教國安局林執行長，我們國慶日當天，中國國安部發布了一份臺獨水軍的名單，一個是臺灣的軍官，另外一個是臺灣一個公司的王姓負責人，中國非常大動作地指控這位王姓負責人，說他長期製作並宣揚臺獨的內容，只因為他接過臺灣政府二二八的展覽以及人權走讀工作坊的標案，甚至說他是一個集團的首腦，在南部跟長老教會有聯繫，同時還介入香港的社會運動等等，把他說成是一個國際反中聯盟的核心。我在這邊想請教國安局，針對中共這樣子的指控，您有什麼表示嗎？"],["林執行長媽喜：向委員報告，職的專業是特種勤務，有關剛剛委員所提問的問題，我將帶回局裡再向委員報告。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝林執行長，你沒有辦法理解這個意義所在就是了？我跟你報告，這其實很明顯就是跨境鎮壓嘛，他很明顯想要侵害臺灣的主權，把臺灣平常公民的活動指控為臺獨，然後要進行相關的制裁，這其實很明顯就是在混淆我們臺灣的國家安全，這樣子跨境鎮壓的行為，其實不只是針對臺灣，中共在世界各國都是用同樣的手法，以逾越主權的方式在侵害他國。所以我在這邊想要跟國安局建議，其實在美國眾議院國土安全委員會的聽證會上，就有建議美國應該也要進行跨境鎮壓相關的法案，明確定義這種跨境鎮壓就是非法行為，怎麼可以跨境鎮壓他國的人民呢？更何況我們在做的只是一個公民運動，所以我也認為國安局是不是應該針對這樣子的內容進行相關的檢討，難道針對臺獨水軍的案件，你們到現在都沒有任何的研議或是任何的作為嗎？"],["林執行長媽喜：報告委員，如果是特種勤務的話，本中心對於相關的地鄰場所勤務都有相關的維安萬全準備，但委員所提到的這些問題，因為不在本中心的專業範圍，所以我們會將委員的問題帶回去給……"],["黃委員捷：謝謝您，執行長，我希望既然今天是國安局派來的代表，對於我們提的這些案件，你們應該都要有基本的掌握。"],["林執行長媽喜：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：請王美惠召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-6","speakers":["王美惠","黃捷","牛煦庭","張智倫","許宇甄","張宏陸","麥玉珍","李柏毅","黃建賓","黃國昌","洪孟楷","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","王鴻薇","徐富癸","丁學忠","高金素梅","蘇巧慧","吳琪銘","林楚茵"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部、警政署署長、國家安全局、法務部針對「當前全國治安狀況與如何強化總統、副總\n統、中央政府機關首長及特定人士安全警衛作業，避免境外勢力或協力者影響國家安全」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00005"}}},{"id":"164386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bdff34cafb8a42a666d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d29a2554e42ef972245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:45:23 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跟委員報告我想教育部對於年金改革的立場是希望說第一個我們能夠去保障我們退休的教職員他有一個適足的經濟生活的安全保障"},{"start":153.351,"end":178.605,"text":"那在這一塊以目前我們的數據來看因為平均來講教育人員的一個月退大概有平均有到5.8萬那有85%以上的月退薪水是在月退的金額是在5萬塊以上那對於如果因為物價的波動在67條也有一些相關政府5%或是每4年的一個檢討"},{"start":180.467,"end":190.781,"text":"在這樣子的一個情況底下我想對於維持跟限職人員的橫貧基金的穩定跟國家財政應該是一個比較好的一個永續方法"},{"start":192.545,"end":218.498,"text":"這個講法當然站在政府的一個立場來看啦可是被改革衝擊到的人他就有不滿嘛那任何人發動這一場的改革的人就是一定是被類汙或者被抨擊的一個對象可是問題是說站在全民的立場來看的話那確實是一個大災問啦你如果說從法律的角度做出了連憲法法庭也做出了這麼多號的一個解釋法律上當然沒有問題啦你四字七八一 七八二 七八三"},{"start":219.298,"end":239.756,"text":"把這些過去在野黨的一個批評那其實憲法法庭也講得非常清楚了但是重點是說教育部其實我們也必須要去政府部門必須要很嚴肅的去做一個回應的就是說如果你要維持所得替代率那你要調整物價指數"},{"start":241.017,"end":256.492,"text":"第一就是大家想說你錢買回來啦你錢買回來就只剩一天啦加稅啦不然就在年輕的未來退休金裡面去考啦那這樣的一個政策你說真的是負責任嗎今天這個版本裡面就讓值得我們去省思啦"},{"start":257.012,"end":282.626,"text":"大家去談到說世代的平衡跟公平這個部分好像大家會覺得說被改革到的人他聽都聽不下去但問題就是說你如果說以現在的修法通過的話我相信這個衝擊啊到最後啊大家很清楚了基金用刷就是破產政府貼紙嘛你存這條路而已啊不然你就加稅後也是你收稅後也是一樣貼紙啊所以啊"},{"start":286.107,"end":309.661,"text":"我倒認為說這個部分真的是各個政黨都要非常非常的一個謹慎你這個最後就是全民一起買單這個議題最好的解決方式是什麼公投因為衝擊到是全民衝擊到了其實也不是只有年輕的還沒有退休的在投錢進去"},{"start":312.575,"end":322.842,"text":"你這個改革方案也不代表說你永遠這一支改革下去本來原來這個案在黨這幾個版本就算沒有提出來你2045年你到那邊破產啊延緩而已啊 延緩而已啊所以最終解決的方法是什麼你監護財政你捐給他嘛你監護他要貼錢嘛 大家要去加稅嘛"},{"start":334.184,"end":350.39,"text":"水龍頭水不能鑽出來嘛不是這樣說那個次長 法院次長請回我最後要請教次長就是說我看教育部在2020年為了完善整個不適任教師的一個處理的一個機制讓學校的調查程序更完備"},{"start":351.85,"end":365.43,"text":"也保障學生的學習跟教室的一個工作權我們增設了這個校事會議那在去年也因應不同的一個態樣包括校園的霸凌 批罰跟不當管教的調查的一個事項那我想也做了一些補強"},{"start":367.072,"end":385.788,"text":"但是現在是不是這個校事會議爭議這麼大社會上有兩種不同的一個看法你說一個校事會議裡面平凡這樣召開八成的學校也召開過校事會議甚至有的學校一年量超過20件讓學校變成說我辦學變好像在辦案一樣"},{"start":386.848,"end":407.535,"text":"這全教總就是這樣的一個講法那你說人本他的講法是說你校事會議受理有篩選的功能沒有爛輸的問題舉了台北市政府像媒體所講的一年接獲八千件然後相關的投訴在台北市最終轉入校事會議裡面他說程序上的只有五十八件受理才五十一件那我要請教教育部就是說那關於這兩種說法"},{"start":409.096,"end":434.791,"text":"看起來都有名有據那你針對消失會議不同的一個想像裡面教育部對於消失會議你們的立場到底是什麼是 謝謝委員的指導我們目前大概有三個原則第一個部分就是說我們看到成案的 就是解聘的案子基本上都是據名檢舉的所以未來消失會議我們就是以據名檢舉為主就不會再去受理匿名的"},{"start":435.211,"end":454.301,"text":"第二個部分就是說現在來講我們未來校事會議要處理的是涉及到教師解聘停聘不續聘這個重大的事件至於一般校內一些老師的考核懲處就回到學校直接派員處理就不會進到校事會議最後還是希望說親師間的關係不是那種動輒得咎"},{"start":454.921,"end":465.892,"text":"其實親事間之間應該有一些對話的空間跟是一些諒解跟信任那我們也會鼓勵學校遇到這樣的問題盡量的就先以溝通對話的方式先來進行"},{"start":466.744,"end":484.24,"text":"今天人因為很多所以我要來做一個結束但是我有一個建議就是說你現在確實整個校師會真的有它的一個問題你遴選學者專家的過程裡面讓它更公開去透明那你現在承辦行政人員的訓練其實也要再去做一個加強那你整個學校經費的排擠效應的問題你也必須要去考慮"},{"start":487.463,"end":507.102,"text":"那如何將這套制度更有利於教育現場跟教育的一個師生裡面這個天秤的兩端裡面我們教育部這個地方如果提出更明確的一個制度方向兼顧教師的權益跟學生的受教權這站出一個比較負責任的政策是應該要你們的應該做的事情好不好好 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今天你的報告裡面特別提到半導體尤其是台積電是我們富國神山"},{"start":36.57,"end":58.706,"text":"真的是我們要感恩當時的這個蔣經國孫運賢院長還有當時的經濟這方面的一些專業的政務官那執行到現在我們他依然是我們的富國神山我們怎麼樣去守住"},{"start":60.351,"end":86.509,"text":"刚才我们赵伟特别质询提到我们的副总统到美国去承诺而这样的一个这么重大的事实上应该要有先有影响评估不是说他讲了之后到现在也还没有影响评估这个是一个"},{"start":87.668,"end":115.297,"text":"值得我們要非常非常的趕快做這樣的一個進行好我們看這個這裡面你的有提到這個經濟部推動新竹工業工研院先進半導體研發基地然後也提到這個國科會推動新竹洋礁大半導體共創基地當然我們一定要繼續的來推動"},{"start":117.967,"end":145.71,"text":"刚才我提到的就是稍微也提到的这个美国台积电即将在美国取得第二块大面积的土地亚利桑那州扩展为一独立的超大经营厂的记录这个部分就必须我们要要非常非常的审慎怎么样去协调怎么样去做重大的影响评估"},{"start":146.81,"end":174.092,"text":"这里面还特别提到要支持先进制程客户对智慧型手机AI和HPC相关运用的需求这个直接直接就会影响到我们在台湾的这样一个重要的复国神山所以这个部分也一定要请国发会"},{"start":174.537,"end":200.804,"text":"要加油而且要勇于勇于跟这个有决策的比如说行政院长甚至总统都应该要勇于把这样的一个相关要该停的该缓的都必须要勇敢的提出来那我请教一下在台湾呢"},{"start":201.308,"end":211.908,"text":"台積電正在新竹和高雄柯協研期籌備豎起的二奈米的晶圓廠這個知道進度嗎"},{"start":213.843,"end":239.869,"text":"如果不知道的話再提供個素面的資料這裡先跟委員報告一下就是說台積電在今年的年底會在新竹以及高雄的廠區量產兩奈米的那一個晶片那這兩奈米比剛剛這個新聞報告還要再先進因為兩奈米在美國的話還沒有說大量在量產所以我們台灣相對來講還是先進的晶片還是在我們台灣在量產這樣子"},{"start":240.638,"end":269.221,"text":"所以现在这个在新竹跟高雄的进行的进度可以有比较具体的书面资料吗好可以可以这个部分再提供好这个一定要去怎么样去协助能够去加快好今天的报告里面这个我之前也一直在关心"},{"start":270.627,"end":288.939,"text":"你們特別提到支持國際學生及人才循環交流擴大招收國際學生並提升其留台意願這個部分你們的報告裡面特別提到列為一個成果"},{"start":290.083,"end":318.413,"text":"也就是我們這個上個會期完成的這個公佈施行的這個外國專業人才延攬及僱傭法的修正主委可能不知道我之前跟前任的主委我一直持非常保留的態度在經濟委會審查甚至朝野協商的時候我都不是很支持因為"},{"start":320.663,"end":349.811,"text":"如果主委你一定要花时间去检视这个修正的条文原来的条文跟现在修正的条文的一个扩大过于扩大我认为是过于扩大我们就讲一个这个我们就讲永久积流好了这个永积瓜福二这个你的报告里面提到的这个"},{"start":350.768,"end":377.288,"text":"放寬複寫式以上畢業僑外生申請永居得折抵一年至三年這裡面當然你要整體的去檢視這些整個條文我們會增加很多的複寫式連複寫式都還要去擴大放寬"},{"start":379.961,"end":405.015,"text":"事实上我国发会在整个需求上你们认为所谓的专业人才的需求揽柴各方面那应该要跟教育部充分的来讨论我们怎么样去鼓励我们的高中职的毕业生去考去就读"},{"start":406.431,"end":425.483,"text":"我們認為台灣所需要的專業人才這應該是優先才對而不是放任他們去考什麼就考什麼然後這個就讀大專院校之後畢業以後又不是我們所需要的專業人才然後就要從國外國會變成這樣的一個"},{"start":429.393,"end":456.303,"text":"很像要做很好的一个跨部会的一个规划会产生这样的一个问题所以这个部分也请这个组委还有尤其是我们国家会的公务人员更应该要往这方面去努力我们看这个113年7年就业者的教育程度然后还有他的就业的比例"},{"start":457.54,"end":480.616,"text":"大雪最右边的大雪我们看113年65.84固然比以往高了但是65.84还不算很高啊那其他的对不对三十几所以这个都必须去评估去省着让我们的年轻人"},{"start":481.317,"end":507.676,"text":"有更好的職業然後所得如果如果我們我現在沒有時間去談了應該還要去看所得對不對所得到底是多少呢也不高都傷亡多而已啊所以這部分我們國內人才不是沒有啊大專校院畢業生也很多啊所以這個部分是一併給這個主委來去做這個政策上的一個"},{"start":509.17,"end":511.574,"text":"一个参考谢谢谢谢好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":12.262,"end":34.528,"text":"市長兩位市長好這個是這樣的因為剛剛今天一直聽到所謂的這個年紀改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的那麼我想如果說今天把世代互助的這個名詞去套到勞保基金或是去針對勞工的退伏"},{"start":35.968,"end":51.488,"text":"退府的機制去做調整然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧然後把這些錢然後多去補貼給現在在職的勞工 您認為說勞工朋友們會答應嗎會答應嗎"},{"start":56.569,"end":72.735,"text":"對 我認為說這個問題基本上是很嚴重的今天對於勞工整個的退伏機制來說那麼當然他們的雇主是一般的企業跟軍公教不一樣軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府那麼在"},{"start":73.655,"end":100.304,"text":"你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調政府本來就是應該要對於公教人員的退休金要負擔最後支付責任對不對這句話我想兩位都同意的那更何況依照你們的報告其實退府基金的破產或是我們講退府基金的用慶遲早的問題現在的改革不代表說退府基金不會破產"},{"start":101.826,"end":108.267,"text":"那麼但是呢這個破產之後是不是政府仍然是必須要負擔這個最後支付的義務"},{"start":110.218,"end":131.786,"text":"請問次長兩位次長是吧是的是的所以呢我們現在已經看到在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革的這個法案他已經帶來很多的後遺症不僅僅是對於已經退休的或者是說已經比較稍微以現在來講比較資深的老師們因為他們涵蓋了救治跟這個"},{"start":133.447,"end":154.623,"text":"跟這個所謂的新制的儲金制的這一批老師們應該是涵蓋舊制從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員對他們來講他們的退休金就是直接的就打了很多的折扣直接的就是減損了他們的退休金的這個利益"},{"start":155.99,"end":175.328,"text":"那麼更何況就是說這樣的一個退休金的改革方案還影響到現在公教人員基本上我們知道要來擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑而且是懸崖式的這樣子的一個滑落"},{"start":176.149,"end":198.177,"text":"那我們已經看到這樣的一個惡法它的確產生了很多的影響所以今天國民黨很負責任的而且也考量到整個退休教師們目前尤其是基層的退休教師們他們的生活的困境基層的公教人員生活的困境所以提出了相關的法案的再改革那我認為這個是一個終止"},{"start":201.538,"end":214.688,"text":"政府繼續霸凌軍公教的一個法案讓軍公教的退休金能夠再恢復權力得到相當的正義所以在今天我的質詢裡面其實我只是"},{"start":218.863,"end":234.329,"text":"我這邊的話我要請教的就是這個懷次長你們在這裡左計算右計算你們從一開始當時在推動退府基金的建制之初你們就說是採取不足額提撥"},{"start":236.291,"end":258.6,"text":"一開始的理念是這樣嗎從一開始去建構退府基金所謂新制的退府基金的時候當時就已經知道說這個我們政府會不足而提撥所以呢 遲早都會破產是這樣的態度嗎不是啦 這個跟委員報告一下那個指的是說在當時在建制這個制度的時候就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費來以當時精算的結果"},{"start":263.422,"end":270.471,"text":"充分的在補足 這個描述是這個意思所以如果說從當時精算的結果你們就知道然後有跟當時的政府做反應"},{"start":271.36,"end":296.362,"text":"我們事實上在那個撥補的這件事情歷來我們那個我看過去的歷史資料歷來都有在爭取啦所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情就是可能就是政府會不足額的提撥那不足額提撥的這件事情為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上這是政府失職啊這並不是軍公教人員的過錯"},{"start":298.799,"end":323.529,"text":"因為我們這個原來的退休制度是一個確定給戶制也就是說你要百分之百說得到就說我很清楚說你要支付那當時我們在年改之前當時我們的收一年大概如果以106年來講是一年才收200不到300億但是我們支出一年就要支出420幾億所以才會需要進行長期性的年改那麼在整個過程中"},{"start":323.829,"end":350.871,"text":"是 謝謝次長因為我想這個部分您之前已經講過很多次了但是我要講的就是這個今天會發生這樣子的一個狀況這個不可歸則於軍公教人員更不可歸則於這些早期適用舊制已經退出的軍公教人員但是呢政府完全不體諒他們然後呢打著這個世代互助的名義然後拿人家退休金來去貼補下一代退休金你套到任何一個職業裡面"},{"start":353.013,"end":368.789,"text":"其他的职业的这些员工劳工们可以接受吗我想不会有人愿意会接受的那么接下来还有就是有谈到我们这一次所提出来的未来的月退休金要随着这个指数物价指数做调整"},{"start":369.289,"end":388.586,"text":"那我根據這次衛福部的報告說近年來衛福部針對他主管的六項居今天性質的年金給付包含老年年金給付什麼老年基本保險金移屬年金生計障礙年金等等原住民等等這些給付他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業105年的時候調整3.65%109年調整了3.97%"},{"start":395.332,"end":410.908,"text":"113年則是調整了7.34%可是剛剛兩位次長你們說還有主計處的報告說那麼這次的年改之後你們調整幅度是多少兩次加起來"},{"start":413.388,"end":430.568,"text":"6%那我剛剛講的衛福部他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了15%將近可能都到14%了所以我們退休的軍公教人員的這樣的月退休金的條幅是合理的嗎"},{"start":432.503,"end":459.403,"text":"我跟委員報告喔 因為他的那個基數 時機的基數是很低的我們公教人員的那個base是很大所以那每一趴的時值上來講是不一樣的 跟您報告我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的一個說法一直在講退休人員的月退休金的所得是比一般的勞工平均薪資要高他的這個比較的基礎標準就不一樣你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比"},{"start":460.595,"end":488.1,"text":"退休公教人員退休金他越退休他每個月當時在薪水提撥的時候比例就高啊這跟勞工也是不一樣的所以我希望你們不要這個昏搖視聽兩個明明就是不同基礎的這個勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度不要拿來把它混為一談這樣的話會讓人家看笑話的而且對於很多的退休公教人員他沒有辦法接受這個事情"},{"start":489.178,"end":497.409,"text":"好 那麼因為這個問題其實很大那我想我今天就先談到這邊那麼也希望你們可以好好的這個捍衛軍公教育人員的權益謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時36分）有請次長還有銓敘部次長。"],["主席：請官員備質詢，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["懷次長敍：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：兩位次長好。是這樣的，因為今天一直聽到所謂的年金改革一個重要的目的是為了世代互助，我想這個名詞說起來是很沉重的，如果今天把世代互助這個名詞套到勞保基金，或是去針對勞工的退撫機制去做調整，然後告訴現在要退休或是已經退休的勞工們，跟他們說以後你們就少領一些吧，然後把這些錢多去補貼給現在在職的勞工，您認為勞工朋友們會答應嗎？會答應嗎？我認為這個問題基本上是很嚴重的，今天對於勞工的整個退撫機制來說，當然，他們的雇主是一般的企業，跟軍公教不一樣，軍公教的雇主基本上就是政府。在你們之前的報告裡面也不斷的強調，政府本來對於公教人員的退休金就應該要負擔最後支付責任，對不對？這句話我想兩位都同意的。更何況，依照你們的報告，其實退撫基金的破產或是我們講退撫基金的用罄是遲早的問題，現在的改革不代表退撫基金不會破產，但是破產之後，是不是政府仍然必須要負擔最後支付的義務？請問兩位次長，是吧？"],["朱次長俊彰：是的。"],["懷次長敍：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以，我們現在看到，在蔡英文政府時代所推動的退休金改革法案已經帶來很多後遺症，不僅僅是對於已經退休的，或者是說以現在來講比較資深的老師們，因為他們涵蓋了舊制跟所謂新制儲金制的這一批老師們，應該是涵蓋舊制，從舊制過渡到新制的這批教師還有公教人員，對他們來講，他們的退休金就直接打了很多折扣，直接減損了他們退休金的利益。更何況，這樣一個退休金改革方案還影響到現在的公教人員，基本上我們知道要擔任公教人員的人數是逐年的下滑，而且是懸崖式的滑落，我們已經看到這一個惡法的確產生了很多的影響。所以今天國民黨很負責任的，而且也考量到整個退休教師們，尤其是基層的退休教師們，目前他們生活的困境、基層公教人員生活的困境，所以提出了相關法案的再改革。我認為這是一個終止政府繼續霸凌軍公教的法案，讓軍公教的退休金能夠再回復，得到相當的正義。所以在今天我的質詢裡面，其實我只是很……這邊我要請教的是懷次長，你們在這裡左計算右計算，你們從一開始，當時在推動退撫基金的建制支出，你們就說是採取不足額提撥，一開始的理念是這樣嗎？從一開始去建構退撫基金，所謂新制的退撫基金的時候，當時就已經知道我們政府會不足額提撥，所以遲早都會破產，是這樣的態度嗎？"],["懷次長敍：不是，跟委員報告一下，那個指的是說，在當時在建置這個制度的時候，就沒有辦法由政府這邊得到足夠的經費，以當時精算的結果充分地來補足，這個描述是這個意思，不好意思，造成委員的誤解。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以如果從當時精算的結果你們就知道，然後有跟當時的政府反映？"],["懷次長敍：事實上在撥補的這件事情，我看過去的歷史資料，歷來都有在爭取。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以跟不同的執政政府都有反映過這個事情？"],["懷次長敍：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：就是可能政府會不足額的提撥，不足額提撥的這件事情，為什麼可以轉嫁到軍公教人員的身上？這是政府失職，並不是軍公教人員的過錯。"],["懷次長敍：因為我們原來的退休制度是確定給付制，也就是說你要百分之百得到……就是我很清楚說你要支付，當時在年改之前，如果以106年來講，當時一年才收200億，不到300億，但是我們一年支出就要四百二十幾億，所以才會需要進行長期性的年改，那麼在整個過程中……"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝次長，因為我想這個部分，您之前已經講過很多次了，但是我要講的就是今天會發生這樣子的狀況，不可歸責於軍公教人員，更不可歸責於這些早期適用舊制已經退休的軍公教人員，但是政府完全不體諒他們，打著世代互助的名義，然後拿人家的退休金來去貼補下一代退休金，你套到任何一個職業裡面，其他職業的員工、勞工可以接受嗎？我想不會有人會願意接受的。","那麼接下來，談到我們這一次所提出來的未來月退休金要隨著物價指數做調整，根據這次衛福部的報告，近年來衛福部針對它主管的六項具津貼性質的年金給付，包含老年年金給付、老年基本保證年金、遺屬年金、身心障礙年金、原住民給付等等這些給付，他們總共辦理了三次給付調整作業，105年的時候調增3.65%，109年調增了3.97%，113年則是調增了7.34%。可是剛剛兩位次長你們說，還有主計處的報告說，這次的年改之後，你們調整幅度是多少？"],["懷次長敍：6%。"],["翁委員曉玲：兩次加起來？"],["懷次長敍：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：6%？"],["懷次長敍：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：那我剛剛講的衛福部，他們主管的六項津貼加起來都已經超過13%了，將近可能到14%了，所以我們退休的軍公教人員這樣的月退休金調幅是合理的嗎？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告，因為他實際的基數是很低的，我們公教人員的base是很大，所以每一趴實質上來講是不一樣的，跟您報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：我還要再糾正你們一個錯誤的說法，一直在講退休人員的月退休金所得是比一般勞工平均薪資要高，他比較的基礎標準就不一樣，你怎麼可以拿一個香蕉跟一個蘋果去比？公教人員退休金，他月退休，他當時每個月在薪水提撥的時候比例就高，這跟勞工也是不一樣的，所以我希望你們不要混淆視聽，兩個明明就是不同基礎的，勞退制度跟公教人員制度是兩套不同的制度，不要拿來混為一談，這樣會讓人家看笑話的，而且對於很多的退休軍公教人員，他們沒有辦法接受這個事情。那麼因為這個問題其實很大，我想我今天就先談到這邊，也希望你們可以好好地捍衛軍公教人員的權益，謝謝。"],["懷次長敍：謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲）：好，有請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164378","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b8dad8538767696fd720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d2ef73f5eace86becf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:34:18 - 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謝謝 謝謝主席那我請彭部長請彭部長還有我們伙務部副司長林黛麗好 蘇委員好部長 最近辛苦了謝謝 多謝希望這樣沒到外國去玩最近是你最痛苦的時候不過我還是要跟環境部加油啦環境部表現非常好"},{"start":32.178,"end":51.792,"text":"承諾的事情都有做到只是時間晚一點謝謝好我現在問你兩個嚴肅的問題第一個就是是不是以後的光電板都要做環評因為你講的都一下子有一下子沒有一下子要急工程你現在在這邊講清楚的表達"},{"start":53.413,"end":80.219,"text":"所有的光電板是不是都要做環評好 謝謝委員因為我們過去其實1月的時候也謝謝委員給我們很多的建議所以我們1月的時候有發布的確有加研然後也有在敏感區域或是山坡地都有一個規範所以委員關心到屏東那個案場其實我相信未來不可能會發生而且屏東三寶其實我們也把它退回去了所以其實我們這個的態度是堅定的但是因為我如果水面型的話"},{"start":80.839,"end":102.779,"text":"他目前全世界目前還沒有那所以我們現在的確是在研議當中那我希望快的話在我們的細則在年底或是明年初如果研議的出來的話我們就會希望能夠在水面型的光電有一個環評的機制好那第二個問題就是剛剛你講的水庫 水池 滯洪池"},{"start":104.481,"end":126.169,"text":"這些上面要擺光電板這次在嘉義就是發生這就是滯洪池六十幾公頃我們都去看了 看了兩次了那到處的水池都要滯洪池都要再放光電板我們屏東那個農科研區有三個滯洪池現在有其中一個也要開始了那雞屎頭都流進去了都流進去了"},{"start":130.765,"end":154.511,"text":"滯洪池的問題那麼多要做環評 要不要做環評 剛剛講什麼時候可以給我們一個期程確定要不要環評包委 滯洪池是屬於水面型的光電我們是希望說我們現在十月底有一個類似徵求意見然後我們希望未來兩個月年底之前希望有一個"},{"start":155.211,"end":183.565,"text":"到底多少的數字需要環比的數字出來我是希望年底前或是到一月的時候可以正式來公告不過因為委員那個像嘉義的案例因為我們有觀察過有些的滯洪池沒事有些滯洪池有事那其實跟他的這個強度是有關係的所以未來呢因為經濟部他們也有承諾說在一些規範上面施工的部分都要有一些規範他們要有已經有去檢查過了所以我相信這個兩個方式來進行應該有辦法避免像這樣的問題"},{"start":184.685,"end":209.807,"text":"自己的我看是 因為剛好風靠啦風太大 風靠這樣漏進來所以一片這樣 所以都騷擾起來你又沒辦法做什麼風洞實驗室你又沒辦法 你跟人家看風水而已你又不是殯董人啊像我也要看 看烏鷹 看魂物在哪裡我們現在改革後 都要看咧塞巴河在哪裡啊 海底來的魂在哪裡 到那邊喝大水的"},{"start":211.528,"end":236.806,"text":"自己要練了一生武功啊不然的話 你在養魚 魚就死了所以這個縫隙啦 這個做這個環評的補分是不是要加強說 醫療你要關心那麽到好你要要看天象這樣喔 後庭 是這就我討論這個現在其實如果環評的程序連這個就要把它考慮在裡面啦齁啊現在就是委員關心的就是多大面積啊這個我們會會來研議啦對啦 你現在"},{"start":241.365,"end":266.616,"text":"因為如果我看起來風太大那你的自動池上面的那個實際脆弱啦真的是蠻脆弱的好那我現在第二個問題就是我們現在很多這些光電公司上上個禮拜在內埔說在公墓上面要蓋太陽能板啊在說明會的時候那些船長要去修葡邊渡"},{"start":269.574,"end":287.554,"text":"加這個我還沒到現場就變了 怎麼又沒了我還在想什麼那現在一個問題就是我們這些能源業者在辦說明會他又去邀請一些社區環保團體啦或者是社區活動的啦"},{"start":291.298,"end":313.851,"text":"協會藉由這裡的肥料 帶人來聽聽這是好事啦但是就像剛才說的 船長要去修法如果你說你要協會 現在這個環保業者現在這裡的風 能源業者去幫你贊助贊助 就讓他們去辦活動 辦路由現在後來還有意見來說 說他是環保蟑螂"},{"start":319.315,"end":336.872,"text":"就用情緒勒索 我來贊助的也有人去用移送法辦我要請問法務部你們這個界定的標準是什麼那這些環保業者那這些能源業者 我在想是套養殺我們法務部立場是怎樣"},{"start":344.033,"end":357.15,"text":"呃這個有關於環境評估的話這個應該我們尊重這個環境部他們的專業評呃他們的專業判斷啊那至於說現場的秩序的話我想這個是個案我們就"},{"start":358.133,"end":374.249,"text":"不是突然喔 大家都疲累了 紡遼鄉那邊有一個貧囊工業區因為東海村 最底層 剩下這幾十九年去把這些青雙 去把他們抵銀金 以前叫做抵銀金 抵抵抵青雙如果不送 就要替他補 不說你在抄詐勒索什麼"},{"start":384.005,"end":409.662,"text":"那這些環保業者如出一策還有 我們的民意代表你要好好回答喔這大家都在看民意代表說萬一選舉的時候要贊助他們都是正常的喔 公開說 都抱感染力的現在把他們站起來贊助我們在外國也有人這樣對著的所以很困擾 要像中情形"},{"start":410.987,"end":425.043,"text":"反倒回來 說它是環保障礙 這樣就環保黑道華府的觀念 想法是怎麼樣 明確的跟我們講一下沒有辦法明確 至少要給我們開示一下 因為大家都很睏了"},{"start":426.916,"end":452.896,"text":"謝謝委員垂詢那就剛才我想那個部長也一直提到我們有一個跨部會平台那這個平台是在行政院政務委員林明熙政務委員他這邊來做一個協調那就剛才委員垂詢到的有關於政治獻金的部分的話我想如果依照政治獻金法相關的規定的話"},{"start":455.382,"end":463.521,"text":"應該就是我們法務部這邊也尊重尊重沒有啦 這位民運代表說話總有百思啦"},{"start":465.922,"end":483.415,"text":"地理就是說這個社團 這個廟宇 它會怕啦因為正經也有人往上 上場以後又去犯罪犯罪以後 一心二心沒辦法回來但是它會怕很受傷啦所以不得不說 像這種能源業者 他這樣做 他是"},{"start":487.113,"end":515.948,"text":"郭家拍電影以前兩個都兩張雙咖啡啦對阿 對阿 把你 把你 把你鎮著鎮著這樣如果你要怎樣就說你這個在拉手阿所以這是很困擾的事情啦所以這個部長你你如果我有做環評就沒有這些事了啦你每一件都給他做環評就沒有這些事了啦一公頃兩公頃他還好每天這樣蠶食精吞這樣你敢不敢看你啦所以你的 好啦"},{"start":517.898,"end":536.466,"text":"其實報告委員 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個時間點我們應該只是壓一個目標"},{"start":66.281,"end":89.13,"text":"這個我必須要強調我們雖然站在監督的角度但是不論如何我認為國軍弟兄國軍官兵們的安全第一因為這個是未來所有我們國軍弟兄尤其是海軍弟兄他們要進入來做使用這一個樣的一個我們自己所製造的海昆號不過在製造的過程當中就是因為涉及機密那麼"},{"start":90.53,"end":114.3,"text":"在上個禮拜其實這個我們的國安局蔡局長也說了中共對我們的認知作戰不斷的進行當中本席特別整理了在海昆號在這一段時間以來尤其是在6月17號啟動海策之後這些不利的訊息包括謠言說海策的這個"},{"start":116.701,"end":141.92,"text":"艦體會變形然後稱我們是模型艦是玩具中共的官媒甚至於說海昆號不堪一擊甚至於錯誤類比日本的這個所謂蒼金號然後造價高然後批評500億打水漂一條爛船還在吹牛然後說台灣人是做潘娜好 我想要請問的就是"},{"start":144.002,"end":164.434,"text":"在這些的所謂認知作戰或是輿情作戰當中到底國防部有沒有什麼樣的任何的統計到底有多少的認知作戰因為我認為這個是一種無煙消的戰爭而這些所謂的認知作戰的謠言有沒有預防跟抵抗的能力"},{"start":165.497,"end":192.768,"text":"包委員有關這個錯假訊息是幾乎是可以預期的因為的確在現在我們兩岸這個情況之下的確是有人要不斷的想要打擊我們各項不管是建軍或者備戰或者種種所以自然而然一定會有非常多的錯假訊息企圖對我們的民心士氣造成影響有沒有統計過那這一部分我們實際上"},{"start":194.409,"end":197.79,"text":"這個國安局長在講國民黨的黨主席選舉的時候啦就有超過上萬條上千則的這個影音然後出現在各種社群平台當中你們有沒有做過統計因為這也是一種戰爭的樣態喔就是打擊就是而且這些樣態是會從境外然後影響到全國人民對於海昆號進度的一種不信任"},{"start":222.961,"end":227.763,"text":"那麼立委看到這個部分的時候也可以有人甚至拿這個來做質詢的時候那這個也可以成為打擊你們的一個方向跟目標所以機密的部分我不會去詢問但是像這種無煙消的戰爭正在發生甚至於就透過中國的內容農場成為質詢的部分比如說模型玩具啦會變形啦不堪一期啦"},{"start":248.413,"end":264.554,"text":"500億打水漂啦 不然為什麼你們11月底 如果無法如期交建的時候那是不是就剛好正中中國在利用認知作戰來打擊我們的海軍跟海昆號的所謂的建造的過程是 我就請我們的政戰局來跟您做個答案"},{"start":267.864,"end":297.584,"text":"委員好我是政戰局局長史順文跟您報告有關於中共的認知作戰他的攻勢其實非常積極包含我們的潛艦在一開始到現在他的這方面的認知作戰的行動完全沒有停止過那麼我們每天都會針對中共對我們的認知作戰做完整的掌握那如果說有比較可以我們可以立即去回應的我們會立即新聞稿或者是"},{"start":298.265,"end":303.981,"text":"在包含了跟民間的這個事實查核中心等等我們都會立即的做出反應"},{"start":304.841,"end":328.28,"text":"好所以說你們有沒有一個數字的統計比如說每天或是多久大概是有沒有去做量化的統計然後多數是來自於哪些中國的官媒或者是統計數字這個東西有一個詳細的報告嗎我覺得這是一個非常好的這個公開的時刻因為我們都知道面對錯假訊息最重要的就是在必要的時候去做揭露那麼你們有這樣的資訊嗎"},{"start":331.463,"end":335.186,"text":"包國瑜 我們有這樣的資訊但是現在手上沒有 是是不是可以提供給本席是 會後就可以提供嗎還是要我們要回去整理一下要多少時間 一個禮拜可以嗎可以因為本席一直認為就是心理戰會影響到整體的海昆號在進展的過程中尤其接下來"},{"start":352.781,"end":376.963,"text":"還有海測及其他的這個所謂測試的過程當中只要你有每一次有動作他就可以直接在後面放消息放毒那麼放毒的也是他們我們沒有辦法只要第一時間透過這個方式來做解讀所以我認為這個訊息是很重要的請你在一個禮拜提供一本席也提供我們國防外交委員會好嗎是 我們會持續的掌握而且立即的做出回應"},{"start":377.563,"end":378.084,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我要請問的是有關於"},{"start":383.602,"end":404.97,"text":"幾個禮拜前我們的賴總統在國慶演說當中說要打造台灣之盾那麼建構台灣分層防禦跟高度感知有效攔截的防護系統喔那麼這個回到我們這一次的年度的2026年的預算當中我們有國防部的主管預算9459億新式戰機的特別預算有399億海空戰力特別預算有293億"},{"start":411.873,"end":430.753,"text":"那麼 我們總統也宣示了那就是我們的國防預算要達到GTT的3%那麼在這個部分 這個名詞的出現我想最重要的還是要由國防部來解讀那麼這些預算的編列符合現在總統宣示的有關於要打造台灣之盾的部分嗎"},{"start":432.244,"end":460.135,"text":"這部分我請站櫃司司長來做個答覆好 站櫃司站櫃司這邊針對公開的部分跟委員做個補充因為我們現在目前面對的空中威脅從彈道飛彈一直到無人機已經變成一個全面性的威脅所以我們整個布防的這個部分這是一個多年期的計畫涵蓋了之前已經執行的建案還有未來我們即將納入包含自治跟軍購案的這些相關的項目"},{"start":460.535,"end":474.731,"text":"那有跟後續 因為目前還在處理當中可能沒有辦法在這邊跟委員做報告但這是一個整體的規劃是 所以這個部分在我們的哪些預算當中是已經編列在年度預算又有哪些未來會用特別預算來做處理嗎"},{"start":475.913,"end":487.887,"text":"在前面的部分我們在前面海空戰力提升裡面我們已經針對防空飛彈的部分已經做了編列那在更早之前我們也編列增購102枚的I-3增程型的飛彈"},{"start":491.952,"end":509.915,"text":"那後續的這個部分陳儒委員知道的我們在過去愛國者飛彈的部分他並沒有滿足到足夠的數量那隨著中共對我們的空中威脅越來越大事實上我們也必須要做一個完整的規劃把威脅的這個部分跟我們防護目標的部分來做一個結合"},{"start":510.856,"end":535.07,"text":"那最重要的是這些飛彈必須加入到新的整合系統裡面去才能夠有效來發揮戰力所以未來我們的目標是從反彈反擊反無人機的這個部分都必須要進入一個完整的整合指管系統有效來發揮各層不同空城跟不同位置裡面武器裝備的效能"},{"start":535.526,"end":546.461,"text":"好 我想涉及機密的部分我不會特別來詢問但是就像過去我們剛剛從海昆劍一路以下我們所詢問的就是在採購跟自製的部分這麼樣一個龐大的計畫預算很高那麼有沒有一個規劃是在"},{"start":551.708,"end":570.011,"text":"採購的部分跟自製的部分比例又是多少有沒有好好的去琢磨因為我們都知道每一次的計畫當中它連帶的可以帶動我們在軍工產業上面的整體的整個產業鏈的提升喔那麼在這邊國防部有沒有把這個作為思考的一部分那比例又是多少"},{"start":571.225,"end":597.872,"text":"有關比例的這個部分因為後續的預算我們還在編列當中在這邊可能沒有辦法跟委員做一個詳述那後續計畫提出來之後當然我們會針對各個計畫尤其是福祉國內無人機以及其他重要產業的這個部分我們會做一個充分的說明那這個部分我們目前仍然在跟行政院以及有關的部會進行研討那後續會再跟委員做一個詳細的報告"},{"start":598.82,"end":627.516,"text":"好 所以言下之意就是除了在部分已經放在我們2026的年度預算當中那麼有部分的話其實還要再重新把這個預算再提出來是這個意思嗎是那你們打算在今年年底提出來嗎還是因為畢竟現在是預算會期我們目前我們的整個規劃是配合年度總預算審查的時間會在今年年底之前提出這個特別預算好 謝謝"},{"start":629.307,"end":629.328,"text":"謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時32分）謝謝主席。主席，有請副參謀總長執行官黃上將。"],["主席：副總長。"],["林委員楚茵：然後常務次長也在，對不對？好，有請次長。"],["主席：常次。"],["林委員楚茵：上個禮拜我們針對潛艦的機密報告已經做過一些詢答了，我想要問的其實也跟我們潛艦的建造進度息息相關。本席非常肯定在潛艦國造及國防自主戰力上面的提升。有關於現在希望是在11月底能夠順利交艦，本席還是強調安全第一，有安全才能夠有真正的國防自主戰力提升。我相信任何東西的製造過程當中，因為它並不是有一個前例在前，所以能夠打造出來，這個時間點我們應該只是押一個目標，這個我必須要強調，我們雖然站在監督的角度，但是不論如何，我認為國軍弟兄、國軍官兵們的安全第一，因為這個是未來所有我們國軍弟兄，尤其是海軍弟兄，他們要進入使用我們自己所製造的海鯤號。","不過在製造的過程當中就是因為涉及機密，上個禮拜其實國安局蔡局長也說了，中共對我們的認知作戰不斷地進行當中。本席特別整理了海鯤號在這一段時間以來，尤其是在6月17號啟動海測之後這些不利的訊息，包括有謠言說海測時艦體會變形，然後稱我們是模型艦、是玩具，中共的官媒甚至於說海鯤號不堪一擊，甚至於錯誤類比日本的蒼鯨號，說海鯤號造價高，批評500億打水漂、一條爛船還在吹牛，然後說臺灣人是做「盼仔」。好，我想要請問的就是，在這些所謂認知作戰或是輿情作戰當中，國防部有沒有做任何的統計到底有多少認知作戰？因為我認為這是一種無煙硝的戰爭，而對這些所謂認知作戰的謠言有沒有預防跟抵抗的能力？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，有關錯假訊息幾乎是可以預期的，因為在現在兩岸的情況之下，的確是有人不斷地想要打擊我們各項，不管是建軍或者備戰或者種種，所以自然而然一定會有非常多的錯假訊息，企圖對我們的民心士氣造成影響……"],["林委員楚茵：有沒有統計過？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：這一部分我們實際上……"],["林委員楚茵：比如說像國安局長在講國民黨黨主席選舉的時候，就有超過上萬條、上千則的影音出現在各種社群平台當中。你們有沒有做過統計？因為這也是一種戰爭的樣態，就是打擊，而且這些樣態會從境外影響到全國人民對於海鯤號進度的一種不信任。立委看到這個部分甚至於有人拿這個質詢的時候，也可以成為打擊你們的一個方向跟目標。機密的部分我不會去詢問，但是像這種無煙硝的戰爭正在發生，甚至於就透過中國的內容農場成為質詢的部分，比如說模型玩具、會變形、不堪一擊、500億打水漂。你們11月底如果無法如期交艦的時候，是不是就剛好正中中國在利用認知作戰打擊我們海軍及海鯤號的建造過程？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是，我請我們的政戰局跟您個答復。"],["林委員楚茵：好，政戰局。"],["史局長順文：委員好。我是政戰局局長史順文，跟您報告，有關於中共的認知作戰，他的攻勢其實非常積極，包含我們的潛艦在一開始到現在，他這方面的認知作戰行動完全沒有停止過。我們每天都會針對中共對我們的認知作戰做完整的掌握，如果有我們可以立即回應的，我們會立即以新聞稿或者包含與民間的事實查核中心等等，我們都會立即地做出反應。"],["林委員楚茵：好，你們有沒有一個數字統計，比如說每天或是多久？有沒有去做量化統計？然後多數是來自於哪些中國的官媒或者是統計數字？這有詳細的報告嗎？我覺得這是一個非常好的公開時刻，因為我們都知道面對錯假訊息，最重要的就是在必要的時候去揭露，你們有這樣的資訊嗎？"],["史局長順文：報告委員，我們有這樣的資訊，但是現在手上沒有。"],["林委員楚茵：手上沒有？"],["史局長順文：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好，是不是可以提供給本席？"],["史局長順文：是，我們會立即提供給委員。"],["林委員楚茵：會後就可以提供嗎？還是要……"],["史局長順文：我們要回去整理一下。"],["林委員楚茵：要多少時間？一個禮拜可以嗎？"],["史局長順文：可以。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席一直認為心理戰會影響到整體海鯤號進展的過程，尤其接下來還有海測及其他測試的過程，只要你每一次有動作，他就可以直接在後面放消息、放毒，那麼放毒的也是他們，我們沒有辦法，只好第一時間透過這個方式解毒，所以我認為這個訊息是很重要的。請你在一個禮拜提供給本席，也提供給外交及國防委員會好嗎？"],["史局長順文：是，我們會持續地掌握，而且立即地做出回應。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["史局長順文：謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：接下來我要請問的是，有關於幾個禮拜前賴總統在國慶演說當中說要打造臺灣之盾，建構臺灣分層防禦、高度感知、有效攔截的防護系統。回到我們這一次2026年度的預算當中，有國防部的主管預算9,459億，新式戰機特別預算有399億，海空戰力特別預算293億，總統也宣示我們的國防預算要達到GDP的3%。在這個部分，這個名詞的出現，我想最重要的還是要由國防部來解讀，這些預算的編列符合現在總統宣示有關於要打造臺灣之盾的部分嗎？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：這部分我請戰規司司長來做個答復。"],["林委員楚茵：好，戰規司。"],["黃司長文啓：委員好。戰規司這邊針對公開的部分跟委員做個補充，因為我們現在面對的空中威脅，從彈道飛彈一直到無人機，已經變成一個全面性的威脅，所以我們整個布防的部分，這是一個多年期的計畫，涵蓋了之前已經執行的建案，還有未來我們即將納入包含自製跟軍購案這些相關的項目，後續的部分因為目前還在處理當中，可能沒有辦法在這邊跟委員報告，但這是一個整體的規劃。"],["林委員楚茵：是，所以這個部分的哪些預算是已經編列在年度預算，又有哪些未來會用特別預算處理？"],["黃司長文啓：前面的部分，我們在前面海空戰力提升裡面，已經針對防空飛彈做了編列，再更早之前，我們也編列了增購102枚愛三增程型飛彈。後續的部分，誠如委員知道的，我們在過去愛國者飛彈的部分，它並沒有滿足到足夠的數量。隨著中共對我們的空中威脅越來越大，事實上，我們也必須要做一個完整的規劃，把威脅的部分跟我們防護目標結合。最重要的是，這些飛彈必須加入新的整合系統裡面。才能夠有效發揮戰力，所以未來我們的目標是反彈、反機、反無人機的部分，都必須要進入一個完整的整合指管系統，有效發揮各層（不同空層）跟不同位置裡面武器裝備的效能。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想涉及機密的部分，我不會特別詢問，但是就像過去，我們剛剛從海鯤艦一路詢問的，就是在採購跟自製的部分。這麼一個龐大的計畫，預算很高，有沒有一個規劃是在採購的部分跟自製的部分，比例是多少？有沒有好好的去著墨？因為我們都知道，每一次的計畫當中，連帶可以帶動我們在軍工產業上面整體、整個產業鏈的提升，國防部有沒有把這個作為思考的一部分？那比例又是多少？"],["黃司長文啓：有關比例的部分，因為後續的預算我們還在編列當中，在這邊可能沒有辦法跟委員詳述，後續計畫提出來之後，當然我們會針對各個計畫，尤其是扶植國內無人機以及其他重要產業的部分，我們會充分的說明。這個部分我們目前仍然在跟行政院以及有關的部會進行研討，後續會再跟委員詳細的報告。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以言下之意，就是除了部分已經放在我們2026的年度預算當中，其他部分的話，其實還要再重新把這個預算提出來，是這個意思嗎？"],["黃司長文啓：是。"],["林委員楚茵：那你們打算在今年年底提出來嗎？還是什麼時候？因為畢竟現在是預算會期。"],["黃司長文啓：目前我們的整個規劃是配合年度總預算審查的時間，會在今年年底之前提出這個特別預算。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時43分）","繼續開會（10時48分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},{"id":"164376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bf1ab932f1d5636c888348e19566c842c83c966d97180d5d2ef73f5eace86becf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:30:32 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包括台灣Plus"},{"start":169.494,"end":196.343,"text":"新聞遭受到政治的干擾非常嚴重而且我們台灣還有媒體的公共討論見區極端他說他本來對台灣是非常熱愛的我們台灣的這個公共的這個論壇討論啊是非常理性而且非常熱情的可是現在變成一個極端了所以他就回英國去這兩個問題都非常非常嚴重那為什麼會這麼嚴重我們來找這個病因好不好來我們看下一張"},{"start":199.141,"end":226.224,"text":"他的問題出在哪邊他本來是一個要發展國際數位傳播計劃對不對這個是經過國發會審議行政院核定的計劃好 主委現在來到你的專業了他沒有任何的量化指標你會怕這個對不對這多嚴重一個事情政府用人民納稅錢將近"},{"start":228.368,"end":245.332,"text":"將近100億結果他的施政的這個目標裡面要怎麼達到他的成績單怎麼樣有具體的量化指標沒有來先看左邊110年的時候到113年他提出從那八大這個議題的這個績效諸位一個"},{"start":250.371,"end":278.655,"text":"連一個量化的指標都沒有就是我要做到什麼 你說你要做到多少成功我們人民納稅錢給你的 你要有什麼樣的計畫達到什麼樣的這個目標一個都沒有這個以前的國發會跟行政院出了問題文化部也出了問題到了今年114年到117年又花40億結果八項變成兩項更嚴重的我給大家看一個"},{"start":280.432,"end":305.757,"text":"審計部啊 在去年的2月份審計部跳出來了他說你施政一定要先有計畫 對不對有一個很具體的指標嘛 量化的指標嘛竟然都沒有連審計部都講話了結果後來文化部說他自己要訂我發現一個大問題了他訂了以後"},{"start":306.96,"end":335.812,"text":"非常的不明確來注意我給你看一個東西很重要行政院所屬各機關中長程個案計畫編審的這個要點就是說你要用人民的納稅錢你國家往前有進步的就像台灣plus你要發展國際的世衛傳播好那你的計畫目標你一定要具體的說明而且盡量要產出型或者是成果效益型的指標就是要一個量化的指標嘛結果都沒有"},{"start":337.45,"end":360.518,"text":"這是不是國化會現在應該加強的地方所以對不對是不是馬上要做檢討的地方對因為跟委員跟委員報告說這一個案子是我們的那個百億基金的一職那是由文化部來負責那文化部他自己本身有有一個管理委員會在在在做那基本上由影視局進行徵選"},{"start":363.179,"end":388.979,"text":"主委不好意思我今天本來應該很尊重你讓你把話講完不過因為時間很有限我提醒一個事情不要把責任推給文化部文化部做該做的現在更嚴重我現在跟你講更重要的我說為什麼你的位置這麼重要我們大家對你有期待國發會的角色一定要充分發揮我今天講的是非常具體的你看要盡量以產出型跟成果效益型為指標要有量化的指標"},{"start":390.42,"end":415.629,"text":"這個就是你要做的事情了可是國發會到現在沒有做我現在具體的要求你回去重新去檢討好不好要求文化部跟台灣Plus你用人民納稅錢100億喔目前出了這麼多問題你是學經濟的嘛對不對你現在把它這個量化的指標把它很具體的寫出來你到底要達成什麼目標而且要快我跟你講我現在審預算對不對"},{"start":417.472,"end":441.799,"text":"立法院審議算一定先看到計畫嘛看他到底要達成多大的這個量化的這個目標嘛對不對這個東西現在沒有那這樣台灣帕拉斯今年的議狀我就沒辦法審喔好不好我們會跟文化部討論就是說怎麼樣來來進進這一個部分各位我今天只是舉這個例子更重要的現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地就是你現在要把那個螺絲釘要栓緊我今天提的是一個辦法如果是中長期的"},{"start":442.239,"end":465.854,"text":"你就要合乎量化的指標好不好你來了以後我希望台灣的政府是有改變的這會努力 好不好好 另外一個也是很重要的這個寧日公籍為你國發基金出的 投資的用了人民的納稅錢啦1.1億每次有事情發生是國發會出去了出現了一堆問題出現了一堆問題"},{"start":471.365,"end":483.135,"text":"我從五月份開始追這個十月份我還請你們給我一個內容的說明結果你們要踢給文化部 就跟你剛剛講的是一樣的"},{"start":487.216,"end":509.034,"text":"第一個不要踢啤酒好不好這是一個不要文化部踢給國泡會國泡會又踢回去要勇於去認識好不好特別是文化部講得很清楚他說他實施了一段時間以後他一定會把案子送到你們這邊來這個成果會送到你這邊嘛對不對你把這個成果好好地檢視一下好不好好來我們看一下凌日供給出了什麼問題"},{"start":511.601,"end":532.769,"text":"第一 人民納稅錢1.1億然後呢 影視權威啊他這個 他就平分啦 十分是八分結果出現啦 各位你看 高達八級就只有第一三分"},{"start":535.077,"end":562.833,"text":"這是非常前衛的 當然那個鄭克爽鄭克爽現在出來有一點在開玩笑跟消遣他說現在清秒都去灌那個分數啦分數有稍微高一點點不過大概是4到5最嚴重是因為我們人民那麼多人納稅錢收視率那麼差 這是一個更嚴重的方恩格 這是一個非常有名的政論評論家他說什麼來我們看他怎麼講寧日公集最後竟然是以步槍擊退"},{"start":565.148,"end":587.568,"text":"大陸的解放軍的艦隊跟艦隊你記性怎麼編到這麼遠 收視率又差然後呢一堆都是力營的導演 力營的相關的力友友得力然後呢黑熊學院的得力欸 連這個攻擊裡面還出現黑熊學院在幫忙訓練民防"},{"start":591.192,"end":614.415,"text":"你這樣怎麼對得起人民呢那你從國發基金出去每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢耶好不好 所以指委請針對零日供給這個事情我覺得應該應該要好好做一個檢討包括以後你們要投資上次那個劉指委有答應我了以後不要以後投資是投資公司不要去投資單獨的"},{"start":616.314,"end":622.26,"text":"一個句好不好我這上次有答應我的你要做就不能改革好不好最後我用大概30秒時間那個強化國發基金的監督"},{"start":627.526,"end":645.577,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨有那時候特別發起所以在立法院裡組成的國發基金有沒有產生弊案的這個調查委員會這個調查報告已經出來了諸位請你跟國發會的同仁好看一看好不好那我知道你非常有理想色彩你在拜訪我的時候你有想你要做一部分的改革我們今天時間有限好不好"},{"start":646.477,"end":661.534,"text":"你給我一份報告一個禮拜好不好把你準備在國發基金怎麼監督不要再產生弊案不要再浪費我們人民的納稅錢了另外已經產生過弊案了包括聯合再生如昕你怎麼解決我知道你有做的功課啦一個禮拜你給我一份報告好不好"},{"start":662.234,"end":680.434,"text":"那針對我剛講的前面那兩個非常嚴重的你趕快把他救回來不要讓他迷航了大概一個禮拜請跟文化部號討論一下做一個比較看你要怎麼把他抓回來正途好不好一定要有具體的量化的這個數據好不好那零四公集這個以後怎麼去改你大概一個禮拜給我一份報告可以嗎好 謝謝主委 加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時30分）謝謝主席，請葉主委。"],["主席：好，再請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。主委，你是很有名的經濟學者。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：當過中經院的院長，剛才主席提醒你，你不用緊張啦！你是很專業的，而且你現在到了這個位置。臺灣的政治碰到兩個非常嚴重的問題：第一個，政治凌駕專業，你有專業啊！所以我們希望你來了以後，不只國發會，我們整個國家的體制運作，專業可以提升上來，這是一個；第二個，就是因為政治性太強了，所以我們現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地，我希望你要扮演國發會很重要的角色，包括以前研考會已經納到你們國發會裡面了，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["張委員啓楷：現在政府的研考做得老實講有些地方還要再加強一點，我希望你進來以後，要把那個螺絲釘拴得更緊一點。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在跟你談兩個很具體的個案：一個就是TaiwanPlus；一個就是「零日攻擊」的投資。TaiwanPlus是為了讓世界看到臺灣，它是一個中長期的計畫，8年要花我們人民納稅錢98億，將近100億，結果它出了什麼樣的問題？績效不彰，甚至連定位都不明，所以它施政目標迷航了，現在只有請國發會趕快把螺絲釘拴緊，可以把它這迷航救回來。我給大家看一下，在2025年6月5日天下雜誌做的專題報導，說TaiwanPlus的組織文化，編輯與採訪缺乏了臺灣觀念、定位不明。","簡報上的左邊這位是臺灣TaiwanPlus英國籍的前高層叫艾永清，這件事情鬧得非常大，他本來在臺灣發展得非常好、薪水也很高，他上個月買了一張單程的機票回英國去了，他說：我永遠離開臺灣了。他提了兩個點，也是非常重要的，他說包括TaiwanPlus新聞遭受到政治的干預非常嚴重，而且我們臺灣還有媒體的公共討論漸趨極端。他說他本來對臺灣是非常熱愛的，我們臺灣公共論壇的討論是非常理性而且非常熱情的，可是現在變成一個極端了，所以他就回英國去。這兩個問題都非常非常嚴重，為什麼會這麼嚴重，我們來找這個病因，好不好？它的問題出在哪邊？它本來是要發展國際數位傳播的一個計畫，TaiwanPlus是經過國發會審議及行政院核定的計畫，注意！現在來到你的專業了，它沒有任何的量化指標，你學經濟的嘛，對不對？這是多嚴重的事情，政府用將近100億的人民納稅錢，結果它的施政目標裡要怎麼達到它的成績單？怎麼樣有具體的量化指標？沒有。","在110年到113年，他提出有8大預期績效，主委，連一個量化的指標都沒有，就是你說你要做到多成功，我們人民納稅錢給你，你要有怎麼樣的計畫？要達到怎麼樣的目標？一個都沒有，以前的國發會跟行政院出了問題，文化部也出了問題，到了今年114年到117年又要花40億，結果8項變成2項。更嚴重的，在去年的2月份審計部跳出來了，他說：你施政一定要先有計畫，對不對？一定要有很具體的量化指標，竟然都沒有，連審計部都講話了，結果後來文化部說自己要訂。我發現一個大問題，他訂了以後，非常的不明確。注意！我給你看個很重要的東西，在「行政院所屬各機關中長程個案計畫編審要點」裡，倘若你要用人民的納稅錢，你國家往前有進步的，就像TaiwanPlus要發展國際的數位傳播，你的計畫目標要具體的說明，而且儘量要產出型或者是成果效益型的指標，要一個量化的指標嘛！結果都沒有。主委，這是不是國發會現在應該加強的地方，對不對？是不是馬上要做檢討的地方？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。跟委員報告，這個案子是我們百億基金的一支，是由文化部在負責。文化部自己本身有一個管理委員會在做，基本上由影視局進行徵選，包括審議的部分……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，不好意思。我今天本來應該要尊重你，讓你把話講完，不過因為時間很有限，我提醒一件事情，不要把責任推給文化部……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會。"],["張委員啓楷：文化部做該做的，現在更嚴重，我現在跟你講更重要的，為什麼你的位置這麼重要，我們大家對你有期待，國發會的角色一定要充分發揮，我今天講的都是非常具體的，你看要儘量以產出型跟成果效益型為指標，要有量化的指標，這就是你要做的事情了。可是國發會到現在沒有做，我現在具體的要求你回去重新檢討，好不好？要求文化部跟TaiwanPlus，他用人民納稅錢100億喔！目前出了這麼多問題，你是學經濟的嘛，對不對？你請他們把這量化的指標很具體的寫出來「到底要達成什麼目標？」而且要快，我跟你講，我現在審預算，立法院審預算一定先看到計畫嘛！看它到底要達成多大的量化目標嘛，對不對？這個東西現在沒有，那TaiwanPlus今年的預算我就沒辦法審喔，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。我們會跟文化部討論，就是怎麼樣來精進這個部分。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我今天只是舉這個例子，更重要的，現在政府螺絲釘掉滿地，就是你現在把那個螺絲釘要拴緊，我今天提的是一個辦法，如果是中長期的，你就要合乎量化的指標，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：你來了以後，我希望臺灣的政府是有改變的，一起努力好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好。另外，也是很重要的，「零日攻擊」從你們國發基金出來投資的，用了人民的納稅錢啊！1.1億中大概有4,000萬是國發會投資的，也出現了一堆問題，我從5月份開始追這件，10月份我還請你們給我一個內容的說明，結果你們又踢給文化部，跟你剛剛講的是一樣的，第一個，不要踢皮球，好不好？這是一個。不要文化部踢給國發會，國發會又踢回去，要勇於任事，好不好？特別是文化部講得很清楚，說他實施了一段時間以後，他一定會把案子送到你們那邊，這個成果會送來你那邊嘛，對不對？你把這個成果好好去檢視一下，好不好？","我們看一下「零日攻擊」出了什麼問題，第一個，花1.1億的人民納稅錢，在影視權威指數的評分裡，10分是滿分，主委，你看，結果出現高達八集低於3分，這是非常權威的，但那個政客爽有一點在開玩笑跟消遣，他說現在青鳥都去灌那個分數啦！分數有稍微高一點點，不過大概到4到5分，最嚴重是用我們人民那麼多的納稅錢，結果收視率那麼差。更嚴重的，這位方恩格是一位非常有名的政論評論家，他說什麼呢？我們看他怎麼講，「零日攻擊」最後居然是以步槍去擊退大陸解放軍的艦隊。劇情怎麼編到這麼離譜，收視率又差，然後一堆都是綠營的導演、綠營相關的綠友友得利，黑熊學院也得利，連「零日攻擊」裡面還出現黑熊學院在幫忙訓練民防，你這樣怎麼對得起人民呢？你從國發基金出去，每一分錢都是人民的納稅錢！好不好？主委，針對「零日攻擊」這個事情，我覺得應該要好好去做檢討，包括以後你們要投資，上次劉主委有答應我，以後投資是投資公司，不要去投資單獨的一個劇，好不好？這個是上次有答應我的，你要做這一部分的改革，好不好？","最後我用大概三十秒時間。關於強化國發基金的監督，我們台灣民眾黨有特別發起，所以在立法院也組成了國發基金有無產生弊案的調查委員會，這個調查報告已經出來了，主委，請你跟國發會的同仁好好看一看，好不好？我知道你非常具有理想，你拜訪我的時候有講你要做一部分的改革，我們今天時間有限，你給我一份報告，一個禮拜，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：就你準備在國發基金怎麼監督而不要再發生弊案，不要浪費人民的納稅錢了。另外，已經發生過弊案的包括聯合再生、如興，你要怎麼解決？我知道你有做功課了，一個禮拜給我一份報告，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["張委員啓楷：針對我剛剛講的前面那兩個非常嚴重的TaiwanPlus，你趕快把它救回來，不要讓它迷航了，大概一個禮拜請跟文化部好好討論一下，做一個比較，看你要怎麼把它抓回來正途，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。"],["張委員啓楷：一定要有具體的量化數據，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為對於……"],["張委員啓楷：「零日攻擊」這個以後怎麼去改，大概一個禮拜給我一份報告，可以嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，可以。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委，加油。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的詢答。接下來請鄭天財委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請教育部朱俊章次長好 有請朱次長我也好次長好 這個我想本席啊認為今天趙偉排審公立學校教職員退休之前輔具條例啊真的是在捍衛公平正義啊維持退休教師應有的待遇跟尊嚴啊"},{"start":44.623,"end":60.383,"text":"我們有看到教育部現在理論上應該要支持修法的方向但是我們看到書面報告裡面對於這次的態度卻傾向於維持現狀理由有各種各樣"},{"start":61.683,"end":83.719,"text":"甚至還提到未來這樣子做的話未來50年預計將減少1600億的收入但是老實說我們的政府台電撥補大筆一揮就是1000億結果50年1600億的差距就要靠剝奪我們這些退休教師的待遇跟尊嚴來達成"},{"start":85.04,"end":95.631,"text":"教育部為什麼對這次的修法持反對的意見為什麼不能逐額撥補這個朱市長您的意見是不是讓您表達一下您支持教育部這樣的立場嗎您個人支持嗎"},{"start":97.024,"end":117.871,"text":"根文報告在這一次的一個提案部裡面是建議維持現行條文那原因有以下幾個第一個部分就是說以目前整個不好意思 朱市長我打斷您我不需要看到您更多因為這其實報告裡都寫了不需要重複報告我問的是您個人你個人支持嗎"},{"start":118.971,"end":140.532,"text":"您摸著良心 您支持嗎我很感念年金改革是世代間的互助所以我怎麼樣讓在職的人員能夠安心50年只為了節省50年的1600億去剝奪這些教育跟尊嚴 您個人支持支持教育部要維持現狀 不支持修法"},{"start":141.465,"end":169.527,"text":"跟委員報告1650而已只是節省下來挹注到我們原來的退伍基金但是政府另外要撥補的甚至說因為這次停降可能引發的其他的缺口那個經費是更高的市長 該做的事要做不要用各種的理由去剝奪這些待遇為什麼 其實我們剛剛講到要世代互助嘛要世代融合嘛你想像喔 如果有一間公司啊僱主在員工入職的時候"},{"start":170.047,"end":187.453,"text":"談好了薪資待遇結果呢在員工退休以後呢說啊你的這個退休所得啊每年減少1.5%然後呢現在的這個通膨啊每年大概2%所以呢一增一減之間啊我算過了啦在20年喔就只剩下一半啊"},{"start":187.853,"end":216.98,"text":"那違背了當初跟員工談好的條件您認為這樣的僱主值得信任嗎年輕人找工作會考慮這樣的一個公司跟事業嗎事實上我們並不是隨便在亂罵根據Teach for Taiwan引用泰報所整理的數據112年來看我們有22.6萬人有合格教師證但是有7.4萬人領了教師證卻沒有進入教職去選擇其他工作"},{"start":217.64,"end":242.777,"text":"其實就是你們這樣的出爾反爾造成的嘛年輕人根本不願意投入進去這是個挑戰7萬多佔整體失之人意的33%我們都幫你算好了更有高達7成以上70%哦足被失之表示不願意投入教職為什麼講好的事情不願意投入不願意履行承諾嘛那同時啊最明顯的現象還有什麼"},{"start":243.557,"end":253.03,"text":"剛剛次長講了要世代互助世代協作世代融合結果我們30歲以下的教師占比明顯低於世界各國國小4.9%"},{"start":256.734,"end":274.734,"text":"國中2%高中只有4.1%普遍很低啊其他的國家鄰近的日本 韓國30歲以下國小教師的比例16% 11%新的人力不願意投入根據翻轉教育今年發布的青獅教育困境調查"},{"start":275.795,"end":301.665,"text":"還有38%的現職教師剛剛我們已經提到33%不願意進來接下來有70%不願意投入現在留下來的還有38%說在三年內要離開教職每年有15%的公費生寧願解約不跟你玩了請問市長我們的教育部有沒有體認到這些警訊"},{"start":302.965,"end":311.953,"text":"還在繼續當灌老闆 繼續凹老師做功德 以前是恐夫子啊現在變成恐功德 市長你要不要回應一下"},{"start":314.13,"end":342.408,"text":"謝謝委員的指導因為第一個目前零有教師證的大概有67%都是在已經有在服務所以三層這個數據其實我們有提出澄清過那另外就是說我們在這一塊我想應該更主要的除了退休人員保障這一塊是一個但是我們怎麼樣讓限職人員可以留住留住老師願意投入這個行業我想這是我們目前更需要做的"},{"start":342.828,"end":365.818,"text":"所以在這一塊也謝謝委員關心校師會議未來的福利不是一個條件嗎已經答應的事情不能反悔不是條件嗎因為在依照大法官您認為我們教育部這樣子去調整去不支持我們的修法您不覺得就是在鼓勵年輕人不要投入這樣的事業嗎您覺得這兩者之間沒有關聯嗎"},{"start":369.13,"end":392.443,"text":"有沒有關聯福利有沒有關聯年金有沒有關聯有關聯嘛好啦沒關係這個我還是希望教育部重新考慮但是啊還有更嚴重的問題啊對不起市長我想您是很專業的我是真的要代替全國的老師要來講這件事回顧20年來基本工資大幅調漲"},{"start":393.939,"end":414.918,"text":"部長您知道2006年到2026年20年間我們的平均時薪漲幾趴 您知道嗎體察民意嘛 您可不可以講一下基本時薪喔基本時薪漲幾趴 您知道嗎基本時薪 不是教師的喔社會的狀態漲幾趴沒關係 我補充給您197%"},{"start":421.277,"end":432.982,"text":"那您知道我們的國中我們的高中薪資漲幾%市長知不知道這個你應該要知道了吧長幾%這35年來還不是20年35年來漲幾%漲幾%主席我時間暫停一下漲幾%我現在真的要落淚了35年漲幾%"},{"start":452.121,"end":472.829,"text":"35年了是否麻煩讓我們會後去查最近四年是漲了謝謝 謝謝主席 時間繼續我告訴您啦35年來國高中只調過一次國高中 國高中您剛剛可能有人一直在跟你講一些別的啦國高中啊 高中400塊漲到420塊國中360塊漲到378塊我有沒有講錯"},{"start":480.483,"end":500.269,"text":"這個數字不敢跟市長講啊20年基本薪資漲197%國中 高中 漲5%在國會的殿堂 您的幕僚不敢告訴你啊市長你不知道 您萬事繁忙 我們可以體察"},{"start":501.55,"end":514.112,"text":"我真的是替喔 這些教師喔真的感到難過啊這個漲幅喔 18塊18塊連一支原子筆在2025年可能都快要買不起了所以市長"},{"start":515.669,"end":539.367,"text":"我給您一個機會因為一直有傳言說教育部正在研議調漲教師終點費這是部長在總諮詢9月份的時候提到的但我現在很擔心因為你們連對這個數字都不清楚我想請您透露一下現在研議的方案到底是什麼因為照這個197%我們高中至少應該要漲到可能要漲到100可能要漲到1000塊國中可能要漲到將近1000塊"},{"start":545.785,"end":564.319,"text":"現在研議的方案是什麼可不可以透露一下根本報告方向我們當然是希望能夠再拉高那至於說拉高的幅度他會涉及到政府財政的問題還有各類人員的一個橫頻問題所以我們會整體的考量但是方向上我們是希望把它拉高"},{"start":565.02,"end":572.671,"text":"謝謝 不好意思我是真的是替教師感到難過啦所以希望您可以包含因為5%比上197%怎麼會有年輕人願意進來啦"},{"start":577.058,"end":604.501,"text":"那我覺得我們真的是要給世代一個機會那另外這個導師職務加給也是13年沒有調整這個我想次長你應該知道每個月只有3000塊那現在行政又很繁雜又有很多手機啦數位網路的服務啦這個提醒次長啦這個如果老師是社會的燈塔可不可以不要連蠟燭的錢都省給他們一個好的工作環境條件還有福利可以嗎"},{"start":605.262,"end":629.127,"text":"各級內容支付加息這塊也是目前也在評估的範圍內也希望能夠做相當的反應再拜託積極那另外還是有一些議題請教次長這個非常難過的消息其實是這個資通訊的這個不流通這個本席了解因為他這個在申請這個休學的時候需要做很多的這個實體申請"},{"start":631.067,"end":658.361,"text":"那這個電子簽章其實教育部沒有排除試用請問能不能加速大專院校試用電子簽章可不可以這一塊我們會來了解來處理不要讓這些已經非常辛苦了打工還有很多的工作結果他要實體的去辦理這些東西他可能沒有時間資訊的流通也很重要那最後啦這個跟主席爭取一點點時間不好意思對我馬上結束因為我們今天的對"},{"start":659.922,"end":686.045,"text":"好 我馬上結束喔這個青少年詐騙的情況112到113年是倍增喔那114年的第一劑呢是這個9000多人了接下來有可能會再倍增那這個佔比非常的高啊現在總受害人數兩成是青少年喔那這一點教育部有沒有掌握有沒有要做一些更多的這個處理"},{"start":686.966,"end":707.16,"text":"是 謝謝委員提醒 事實上我們在每一年開學就會有為期一個月的校園友善安全中其中針對反詐這塊就是我們的一個重點那我們有一些相關的措施跟成果會後我們可以整體提供給委員參考好 謝謝 謝謝次長好 好不好意思 謝謝因為今天真的發言委員很多所以才提"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":469,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請教育部朱俊彰次長。"],["主席：有請朱次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：次長好。本席認為今天召委排審公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例修法，真的是在捍衛公平正義，維持退休教師應有的待遇跟尊嚴。教育部理論上應該要支持修法的方向，但是我們看到教育部提出的書面報告，對於這次修法的態度卻傾向於維持現狀，理由有各種各樣，甚至還提到如果這樣做的話，未來50年預計將減少1,600億的收入。但是老實說，我們的政府對台電的撥補大筆一揮就是1,000億，結果50年1,600億的差距就要靠剝奪我們這些退休教師的待遇跟尊嚴來達成。教育部為什麼對這次的修法持反對的意見？為什麼不能足額撥補？朱次長，您的意見為何？是不是讓您表達一下，您支持教育部這樣的立場嗎？您個人支持嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，對於這次的提案，部裡面是建議維持現行條文，原因有以下幾個，第一個部分，以目前整個……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，朱次長，我打斷您，我不需要看到您更多……因為其實在報告裡都寫了，不需要重複報告啦！我問的是您個人，你個人支持嗎？您摸著良心，您支持嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：我很感念年金改革是世代間的互助，所以怎麼樣讓在職人員能夠安心、讓退休人員能夠有保障……"],["葛委員如鈞：50年，只為了節省50年的1,600億而去剝奪這些教育人員的尊嚴，您個人支持？支持教育部要維持現狀，不支持修法？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，1,652億只是節省下來挹注到我們原來的退撫基金，但是政府另外要撥補的，甚至因為這次停降可能引發的其他缺口，那個經費是更高的。"],["葛委員如鈞：次長，該做的事要做，不要用各種的理由去剝奪這些待遇，為什麼？其實我們剛剛講到要世代互助、要世代融合，你想像，如果有一間公司，雇主在員工入職的時候談好了薪資待遇，結果在員工退休以後說退休所得要每年減少1.5%，然後現在的通膨每年大概2%，所以一增一減之間，我算過了，再20年就只剩下一半，違背了當初跟員工談好的條件。您認為這樣的雇主值得信任嗎？年輕人找工作會考慮這樣一個公司跟事業嗎？事實上，我們並不是隨便在亂罵，根據Teach For Taiwan引用太報所整理的數據，以112年來看，我們有22.6萬人有合格教師證，但是有7.4萬人領了教師證卻沒有進入教職，而是去選擇其他工作，其實就是你們這樣的出爾反爾造成的嘛！年輕人根本不願意投入進去，這是個挑戰，七萬多占整體師資人力的33%，我們都幫你算好了；更有高達七成以上、70%儲備師資表示不願意投入教職，為什麼？講好的事情，不願意投入、不願意履行承諾嘛！同時，最明顯的現象還有什麼？剛剛次長講了要世代互助、世代協作、世代融合，結果呢？我們30歲以下的教師占比明顯低於世界各國，國小4.9%、國中2%、高中只有4.1%，普遍很低，相較於其他國家，像鄰近的日本、韓國30歲以下國小教師的比例分別是16%、11%。新的人力不願意投入，根據翻轉教育今年發布的親師教育困境調查，還有38%的現職教師喔，剛剛我們已經提到33%不願意進來、70%不願意投入，現在留下來的還有38%說在三年內要離開教職，每年有15%的公費生寧願解約、不跟你玩了。請問次長，我們的教育部有沒有體認到這些警訊？還在繼續當慣老闆、繼續拗老師做功德，以前是孔夫子，現在變成孔功德！次長，你要不要回應一下？"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員的指導，因為第一個，目前領有教師證的大概有67%都已經有在服務，所以三成這個數據其實我們也有提出澄清過。另外，對於這一塊，我想更主要的是，除了退休人員保障的這一塊是一個，但是我們怎麼樣讓現職人員可以留住，留住老師願意投入這個行業，我想這是我們目前更需要做的啦，所以在這一塊也謝謝委員關心，校事會議、行政減量……"],["葛委員如鈞：未來的福利不是一個條件嗎？已經答應的事情不能反悔，不是條件嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：因為依照大法官釋字……"],["葛委員如鈞：對於我們教育部這樣子去調整，不支持我們的修法，您不覺得就是在鼓勵年輕人不要投入這樣的事業嗎？您覺得這兩者之間沒有關聯嗎？有沒有關聯？"],["朱次長俊彰：年金……"],["葛委員如鈞：福利有沒有關聯？年金有沒有關聯？"],["朱次長俊彰：福利當然是……"],["葛委員如鈞：年金有沒有關聯？"],["朱次長俊彰：年金當然是其中的一塊。"],["葛委員如鈞：有關聯嘛！好啦，沒關係，這個我還是希望教育部重新考慮。但是還有更嚴重的問題啊！對不起，次長，我想您是很專業的，我是真的要代替全國的老師來講這件事喔！回顧20年來，基本工資大幅調漲，次長，您知道2006年到2026年，20年間我們的平均時薪漲幾趴，您知道嗎？體察民意嘛！你可不可以講一下，基本時薪喔，基本時薪漲幾趴，你知道嗎？","基本時薪，不是教師的喔，社會的狀態！"],["朱次長俊彰：基本時薪……"],["葛委員如鈞：漲幾趴？沒關係，我補充給您，197%。那您知道我們的國中、高中薪資漲幾趴？次長知不知道？這個你應該要知道了吧？"],["朱次長俊彰：薪資的部分，因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：漲幾趴？這35年來，還不是20年，35年來漲幾趴？漲幾趴？","主席，我的時間暫停一下。漲幾趴？我現在真的要落淚了。"],["朱次長俊彰：我們這三年是調漲……"],["葛委員如鈞：35年漲幾趴？"],["朱次長俊彰：35年……委員，是否麻煩讓我們會後去查？最近4年是漲了11趴。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。謝謝主席，時間繼續。我告訴您啦，35年來國、高中只調過一次，國、高中，您剛剛可能有人一直在跟你講一些別的啦，國、高中的部分，高中從400塊漲到420塊，國中從360塊漲到378塊，我有沒有講錯？這個數字不敢跟次長講啊！"],["朱次長俊彰：對，鐘點費的部分是這樣子。"],["葛委員如鈞：20年基本薪資漲197%，國中、高中漲5趴，在國會的殿堂，您的幕僚不敢告訴你啊！次長你不知道，您萬事繁忙，我們可以體察。我真的是替這些教師真心感到難過，這個漲幅18塊，在2025年18塊可能連一支原子筆都快要買不起了。所以，次長，我給您一個機會，因為一直有傳言說教育部正在研議調漲教師鐘點費，這是部長在總質詢9月份的時候提到的，但我現在很擔心，因為你們連對這個數字都不清楚，我想請您透露一下，現在研議的方案到底是什麼？因為照這個197趴，我們高中至少應該要漲到……可能要漲到1,000塊喔，國中可能要漲到將近1,000塊喔！現在研議的方案是什麼？可不可以透露一下。"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，我們的方向當然是希望能夠再拉高，至於拉高的幅度會涉及到政府財政的問題，還有各類人員的衡平問題，所以我們會整體的考量，但是方向上我們是希望把它拉高。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。不好意思，我是真的替教師感到難過啦，所以也希望您可以包涵。"],["朱次長俊彰：不敢，謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：因為5趴比上197趴，怎麼會有年輕人願意進來啦！我覺得我們真的是要給世代一個機會。另外，導師職務加給也是13年沒有調整，我想次長你應該知道，每個月只有3,000塊，現在行政事務又很煩雜，又有很多手機、數位網路的服務。要提醒次長，如果老師是社會的燈塔，可不可以不要連蠟燭的錢都省，給他們一個好的工作環境、條件還有福利，可以嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，各級人員職務加給這一塊目前也在評估的範圍內，也希望能夠做適當的反應。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，再拜託要積極。另外，還有一些議題請教次長，這是令人非常難過的消息，其實導因是資通訊的不流通，根據本席了解，因為在申請休學的時候需要做很多的實體申請，其實教育部沒有排除適用電子簽章，請問能不能加速大專院校適用電子簽章，可不可以？"],["朱次長俊彰：這塊我們會來了解、來處理。"],["葛委員如鈞：不要讓這些已經非常辛苦地在打工，還有很多工作的學生，結果他要實體的去辦理這些東西，他可能沒有時間，資訊的流通也很重要。","最後，跟主席爭取一點點時間……"],["主席：不好意思，最後1分鐘……"],["葛委員如鈞：對，我馬上、馬上結束……"],["主席：因為我們今天登記發言的委員很多。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，我馬上結束。","青少年詐騙的情況，112年到113年是倍增喔，那114年的第一季是九千多人，接下來有可能會再倍增，占比也非常的高，現在總受害人數兩成是青少年，這一點教育部有沒有掌握，有沒有要做更多的處理？"],["朱次長俊彰：是，謝謝委員提醒。事實上我們在每一年開學就會有為期一個月的校園友善安全週，其中反詐這一塊就是我們的一個重點，我們有一些相關的措施跟成果，會後我們可以整理提供給委員參考。謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，謝謝次長。"],["主席：不好意思，謝謝，因為今天真的發言的委員很多，所以才提醒委員們控制發言時間，謝謝。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞代）：接下來有請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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楊瓊瑜發言 邀請主委主委"},{"start":17.462,"end":43.541,"text":"主委好我们首先来讨论我们的晶片产业下面请副总统日前他接受了CBC的一个访问那他也提出我们已承诺在美投资不只是台积电还包括整个生态系您知道这回事吗在他要回答这些事情的时候您知道这回事吗"},{"start":44.659,"end":69.21,"text":"你知道這個答案嗎最不知道沒關係你告訴我就好因為我才上任一個月而已不管你上任不上任你現在是國防會的主委剛才我在主席台也建議你就你的專業那本席再強調在鄉府總統回答CBC之前您知不知道這件事情"},{"start":70.037,"end":98.349,"text":"有一些媒體都有在說你是看媒體的嘛所以你不知道政府的方向是不是所以就是不知道那所以本席要請教他說台灣已經承諾在美國投資晶片產業不只是台積電還包括了整個生態跟其他的部分從供應鏈到設計商乃至其他晶片製造公司那台灣"},{"start":99.449,"end":121.831,"text":"也與英特爾的這個美國來合作那要提升整個的生產力所以本席要請教 您現在是主委請教晶片以及製造供應鏈生態系是台灣我們產業競爭的重中之重 對不對"},{"start":123.072,"end":147.832,"text":"是不是 是那現在不只是台積電來投資國家主導的整個整個生態系都要過去那副總統呢這個他沒有在國內說明那卻在外媒訪問的時候來透露來透露所以請問到目前為止行政院有沒有討論過有沒有討論過"},{"start":151.721,"end":170.523,"text":"因為你已經上任一個多月了有沒有討論過你說台積電這個父母有因為那個副院長好像是生態系的產業包括整個生態系的產業已經承諾在美投資請教我們行政院有沒有討論過有沒有"},{"start":174.187,"end":199.409,"text":"對 我們這個部分都有跟跨部會去做協商那剛剛委員提到不是協商 有沒有討論過就是跨部會的討論然後就整個那個生態系其實就是好像所以其實政府是本來就知道這個生態系要在美投資的一系列是不是沒有整個的話所有的那一個細節部分的話沒有像"},{"start":200.33,"end":210.275,"text":"委員說得出的那種所有都知道 沒有 這只是一個概念性的沒有這樣 可是一個副總統接受到外媒已經宣布了他說我們已經承諾在美投資所以主委沒關係 你不用緊張你還不了解這一個事項 是不是"},{"start":222.188,"end":244.977,"text":"裡面的有一些detail然後另外一個就是說我們對美談判我們國發會目前來講的話只是一個幕僚單位就是沒有直接參與談判本席不再同意你經常說我只是一個收建單位窗口我只是一個幕僚本席再一次強調您是國家非常非常重要"},{"start":245.987,"end":260.53,"text":"的頭腦跟心臟你這個角色很重要所有國家的重大投資都必須在你整合所有的部會做成最後的決議跟行政院對不對"},{"start":261.61,"end":277.692,"text":"是啊 所以你要看重你自己啊我們現在台灣產業碰到這樣子的一個重挫以及民企業界的一個壓力啊我們不希望政府只有聽到我只是一個收件窗口我只是一個幕僚啊"},{"start":281.738,"end":288.465,"text":"我再次告訴你 依你的專業 是不是要請教您在討論我們整個國家產業的經濟的時候的項目你有沒有包括在剛剛我們討論的蕭副總統承諾在美投資的這些供應鏈有沒有納入在你這次剛剛報告的範圍之內"},{"start":305.325,"end":315.032,"text":"有沒有供應鏈嗎我剛剛報告會比較像是著重在國內的發展就是國內的建設這一塊當然是國內的發展跟國內的建設啊因為他的生產鏈都會影響啊有沒有包括請你針對本席的提問"},{"start":323.778,"end":348.34,"text":"我們這個部分有一些你有沒有包括你剛才說的你們有討論一個概括有沒有包括已經承諾在美投資的整個生態系的影響度有沒有包括有還是沒有影響度的評估嗎我們這個評估還沒有好那接下來本席要告訴你生態系的產值"},{"start":349.52,"end":361.505,"text":"他的規模到底是怎麼樣對國內的影響到底是怎麼樣你們必須要去做完整的評估是不是會會我們會我們會接多久時間這個評估可以告訴國人多久時間這個評估可以告訴國人"},{"start":367.782,"end":393.993,"text":"主委你今天是國防會的主委請你把時間告訴我因為台積電在1650億元的這個投資美國還一直要喊加碼甚至到3000億所以在這樣的情況之下到底到底我們會不會變成是推動晶片產業到美國的角色還是只是為了因應美方高額投資晶片產業的期待"},{"start":395.013,"end":414.502,"text":"這個很重要對我國內的生產電視影響至極你在所有的評估如果沒有包括跟你剛才所說的沒有包括在這個上面那讓我們會很傻眼你怎麼辦法有辦法評估副總統這麼說你國防會不知情沒有納入這個元素那你的數據怎麼會正常呢多久時間評估告訴本席"},{"start":422.984,"end":446.567,"text":"因為這個院裡面有一個專案小組是請問多久時間你國防會整合可以告訴本席這個部分我是不是委員讓我讓我跟那個副院長討論討論一下因為有一些討論一下沒關係你有一個方向你多久時間可以告訴本席三個月方便嗎不方便"},{"start":449.255,"end":478.382,"text":"我們的傳統產業集的跟熱鍋上的螞蟻一樣耶副總統都已經說了為什麼還要拖到三個月你告訴我們方向就好了因為目前台美的談判還沒有一個很明確的所以整個做那個評估影響就是因為如此所以你國發會更應該要以本國的產業最大的立即點為站在這個立場嘛你站不站成本席所說的這一點"},{"start":480.394,"end":495.729,"text":"贊成吧所以你多久時間可以告訴本席你們的評估納入這個部分會影響還是會更加的因為最主要就是說談判談判還沒有一個結果你剛剛所說的三個月可不可以提前"},{"start":501.193,"end":514.479,"text":"你不用緊張你就三個月內你如果提早就趕快將素面資料給本席好嗎這個是對於我們的產業大家非常的緊張不應當到這裡來你沒有辦法回答大家的問題"},{"start":515.967,"end":530.951,"text":"加油所以接下來本席要請教我們目前因為本席跟這個金管會在上個禮拜我們都提過也就是國防會呢我們受險的部分是36.9兆元那其中七成約2.這個"},{"start":533.792,"end":562.22,"text":"兆元在投資在海外約七成他是25兆投資在海外那你國外會10月11號你的媒體也說你有兆元的投資國家發展那本席認為授權的部分應該可以將資金投入到我們的公共建設比如說成如我們的社宅我們的建設我們的長照我們的內燃等國內重大的這個投資的建設的契機所以本席要請教"},{"start":563.26,"end":573.349,"text":"因為大家都承認我們長期缺乏國內投資的誘因以及它制度的一個調整所以本席告訴你上個禮拜監管會已經答應本席在年底前他們會提出這個方案"},{"start":581.957,"end":604.665,"text":"所以本席要請教因為行政院一直喊說亞洲資產管理中心但是我們把資產資金都一直往外移一直往外移所以在這樣情況之下本席請問國發會想引回受險的基金那目前我們卻只有百億的規模百億的規模這個跟"},{"start":608.166,"end":615.409,"text":"他的36.9兆元是落差非常的大這個不僅凸顯到我們整個政策的斷層也將措施的把這些資金的能夠導入在我們剛剛本席所說的不管是建設設宅長照以及綠能這些國內的重大投資所以國防會你是不是跟這個金管會去研擬"},{"start":633.895,"end":661.163,"text":"具體的眼裡怎麼樣將資金可以留在台灣建設台灣請教國發會主委這個部分跟委員報告剛剛委員提到那個110那個只是基礎建設這個部分那陸續有一些業者在洽詢所以假如說我們搭配其他的推動方案就是說不光是基礎建設還有其他的一些工建所以換句話說不管工建長照設宅等等"},{"start":663.26,"end":687.228,"text":"本席告訴你的是說 我跟你說他有30多兆 七成在海外你要有錢 你才有辦法去引回來你一直點頭表示你的看法跟金管會是一致的金管會已經在上個禮拜告訴本席是在年底的時候他會提出方案 那您呢 您呢你的方向 請做說明"},{"start":693.737,"end":719.254,"text":"就是在民间参与公共建设这个部分的话我们预期会达到2000亿然后在法规松绑调试这个部分的话我们希望会至少完成24件这样子法规松绑是什么法规松绑比如说像这一次的修法就是说我们把公共基础建设这一项特别拉进来对"},{"start":720.026,"end":727.962,"text":"所以金管會是年底本期具體要求大家有這個共識你必須要去把你們的項目"},{"start":729.011,"end":748.698,"text":"要怎麼樣的有條件式的誘因要趕快跟經管會達成這樣的共識協助國內的產業將這些資金可以回到台灣來而不是只有七成全部到國外去是不是這個方向你如果有方向把書面資料給本席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時17分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：召委好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好。我們首先來討論我們的晶片產業，蕭美琴副總統日前接受了CBC的訪問，他也提出我們已承諾在美投資，不只是台積電，還包括整個生態系，你知道這回事嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：在他要回答這些事情的時候，您知道這回事嗎？你知道這個答案嗎？知不知道？沒關係，你告訴我就好。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為我才上任一個月而已，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管你上任不上任，你現在是國發會的主委，剛才我在主席臺也建議你就你的專業，本席再強調，在蕭副總統回答CBC之前，您知不知道這件事情？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有一些媒體都有在說這一件事。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是看媒體嘛？所以你不知道政府的方向？是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，因為上任不久。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以就是不知道，本席要請教，他說臺灣已經承諾在美國投資晶片產業，不只是台積電，還包括了整個生態跟其他的部分，從供應鏈到設計商，乃至其他晶片製造公司，臺灣也與美國的英特爾來合作，要提升整個生產力。所以本席要請教，您現在是主委，請教晶片以及製造供應鏈生態系是臺灣產業競爭的重中之重，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在不只是台積電去投資，國家主導的整個生態系都要過去，副總統沒有在國內說明，卻在外媒訪問的時候透露，所以請問到目前為止，行政院有沒有討論過？因為你已經上任一個多月了，有沒有討論過？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：你是說台積電赴美？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：包括整個生態系的產業已經承諾在美投資，請教我們行政院有沒有討論過，有沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分我們都有跟跨部會去做協商，剛剛委員提到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是協商，有沒有討論過？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有，就是跨部會討論，而就整個生態系，所謂的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以，其實政府本來就知道生態系要在美投資一系列，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，整個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：整個所有細節的部分，沒有像委員說的就是那種所有的都這樣，沒有。這只是一個概念性的，我們會希望……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有？可是副總統接受外媒訪問時已經宣布了啊！他說我們已經承諾在美投資。主委沒關係，你不用緊張，你還不了解這一個事項，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：裡面有一些detail……對。另外，對美談判的部分，國發會目前只是一個幕僚單位，沒有直接參與談判。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，本席不會再同意你經常說：我只是一個收件單位、窗口，我只是一個幕僚。本席再一次強調，您是國家非常非常重要的頭腦跟心臟，你這個角色很重要，所有國家的重大投資都必須在你跟行政院，整合所有的部會做成最後的決議，對不對？是啊！所以你要看重你自己啊！我們臺灣產業現在碰到這樣的重挫，以及企業界的壓力，我們不希望只有聽到政府說我只是一個收件窗口、我只是一個幕僚啊！我再次告訴你，依你的專業。","本席要請教，您在討論我們整個國家產業經濟項目的時候，有沒有包括在剛剛我們討論的蕭副總統承諾在美投資的這一些供應鏈，有沒有納入在你這次、剛剛報告的範圍之內，有沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：你說供應鏈嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我剛剛的報告會比較像是著重在國內的發展，就是國內的建設這一塊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是國內的發展跟國內的建設啊！因為他的生產鏈都會影響啊！有沒有包括？請你針對本席的提問回答。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有、有、有，我們這個部分有一些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛才所說的你們有討論一個概括，有沒有包括已經承諾在美投資的整個生態系的影響度，有沒有包括？有還是沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：影響度的評估嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個評估還沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，那接下來本席要告訴你，生態系的產值，它的規模到底是怎麼樣？對國內的影響到底是怎麼樣？你們必須要去做完整的評估。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，我們接下來會做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個評估需要多久時間可以來告訴國人？主委，你今天是國發會的主委，請你把時間告訴我。因為台積電1,650億元的投資，美國還一直喊要加碼，甚至到3,000億，所以在這樣的情況之下，到底我們會不會變成是推動晶片產業到美國的角色，還是只是為了因應美方高額投資晶片產業的期待？這個很重要，對國內的生產鏈是影響至極！你所有的評估，如你剛剛所說的，如果沒有包括在裡面，那會讓我們很傻眼！你怎麼有辦法評估？副總統這麼說，你國發會不知情，沒有納入這個元素，那你的數據怎麼會正常呢？告訴本席要多久時間評估！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為院裡面有一個專案小組，是副院長……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問你國發會整合需要多久時間？告訴本席。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分，是不是讓我跟副院長討論一下？因為有一些……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：討論一下沒關係，你有一個方向，你多久時間可以告訴本席？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：三個月方便嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不方便，怎麼可能方便？我們的傳統產業急得跟熱鍋上的螞蟻一樣，副總統都已經說了，為什麼還要拖到三個月？你告訴我們方向就好。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為目前臺美的談判還沒有一個很明確的……所以整個做評估、影響……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是因為如此，所以你國發會更應該要以本國的產業為最大立基點，要站在這個立場，你贊不贊成本席所說的這一點？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：贊成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：贊成嘛！所以，你多久時間可以告訴本席，你們的評估納入這個部分，會影響還是會更加的plus……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為最主要就是談判還沒有一個結果。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你剛剛所說的三個月，可不可以提前？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不用緊張，你就三個月內，你如果提早，就趕快將書面資料給本席，好嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是對於我們的產業，大家非常的緊張，不應當到了這裡，你還沒有辦法回答大家的問題，加油。","接下來本席要請教，因為本席跟金管會，在上個禮拜我們就提過，就是國發會，我們壽險業資金的部分是36.9兆元，那其中七成約25兆元投資在海外，國發會10月11號媒體也說你們有兆元投資國家方案，本席認為，壽險的部分應該可以將資金投入到我們的公共建設，比如說我們的社宅、我們的建設、我們的長照、我們的綠能等，是國內重大投資建設的契機。","因為大家都承認我們長期缺乏國內投資的誘因，以及制度的調整。本席告訴你，上個禮拜，金管會已經答應本席，在年底前他們會提出這個方案。本席要請教，因為行政院一直喊說亞洲資產管理中心，但是我們把資產、資金都一直往外移，在這樣情況之下，本席請問國發會想引回壽險的基金，目前我們卻只有百億的規模，跟他的36.9兆元落差非常的大，這個不僅凸顯到我們整個政策的斷層，也將錯失把這些資金能夠導入到我們本席所說的，不管是建設、社宅、長照以及綠能這些國內的重大投資，所以國發會你是不是跟金管會具體的研擬，怎麼樣將資金可以留在臺灣、建設臺灣？請教國發會主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到那個100億，那個只是基礎建設，那陸續有一些業者在洽詢，所以假如我們搭配其他的推動方案，不光是基礎建設，還有其他的一些公建，可能會有兩千億左右……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，不管公建、長照、社宅等等，本席告訴你的是說，他有三十多兆，七成在海外，你要有錢，你才有辦法去引回來。你一直點頭，表示你的看法跟金管會是一致的，金管會已經在上個禮拜告訴本席，在年底的時候，他會提出方案，那您呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們會跟……"],["陳處長美菊：已經有方案了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的方向，請做說明。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在民間參與公共建設這個部分的話，我們預期會達到2,000億；在法規鬆綁調適這個部分的話，我們會希望至少完成24件。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：法規鬆綁，是什麼法規鬆綁？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：比如說，像這一次的修法，我們把基礎建設這一項特別……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：納進來？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：金管會是年底提出。本席具體要求，大家有這個共識，你必須要去把你們的項目，要怎麼樣有條件式的誘因，要趕快跟金管會達成共識，協助國內的產業將這些資金可以回到臺灣來，而不是只有7成全部到國外去，是不是這個方向？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你如果有方向，把書面資料給本席，謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，謝謝委員。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：接下來請張啓楷委員做詢答，謝謝。","我們在鄭天財委員詢答結束之後，休息3分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請部長請部長欸 劉元豪部長好部長你現在是目前未還主管三部會中重慶520還健在的部長你會不會擔心因為會太陽能光電板會摔得一大跤"},{"start":30.202,"end":47.558,"text":"我這樣提醒你不是沒有原因啦齁因為你前面幾位的部長我大致上都有提醒過他們關電板的這個回收的問題嚴重啊大家好像好像都蠻樂觀 包含現在的環境部也一樣是樂觀的在面對這個事情那現在已經爆發了"},{"start":49.171,"end":68.905,"text":"我覺得如果持續這樣的心態會很危險我是從2016年的10月質詢當時的林群院長以及林議員署長有關於太陽能光電板的回收去化的議題那2016年就已經知道2031年會出現第一波太陽能板的太萬潮"},{"start":70.083,"end":92.999,"text":"但是我們2025年就今年丹麥斯颱風就已經造成了13.5萬片約2800公噸的太陽光電板毀損去化立即發生的問題嘛然後2025到現在再到2031還有6年6年的大限也差不多快到了會不會打破"},{"start":95.058,"end":121.896,"text":"環境部原有的預估還有當時的這樣的一個規劃所以是不是要有很大很大的一個修正跟調整的一個空間我這麼講啦齁我這麼講你看嘛齁這也是部長你講的我是應部長的講法當時颱風發生之後造成損毀這麼多我們每個月可以去化2900噸理論上是應該可以消化這個這個碳能關電的潰板齁"},{"start":124.025,"end":152.299,"text":"那主要的原因來自單一業者的態度消極延宕清運甚至於因為計較處理成本而此為互管才導致進度落後這是部長講的話那照理講明明都有回收基金嘛而且偏偏都有登錄喔都有登記然後又是暗藏業者然後再來環境部應該也找跟業者有做衝的溝通甚至在委員會也多次包含我們"},{"start":153.26,"end":178.108,"text":"這一個屋頂型的我們都好像回答的都有相關的這樣的一個積極因應的有制度的機制不過那一次坦白講我問了兩次之後那個機制是到最後才比較肯定答覆我那現在面對這麼龐大的這樣的一個建制的量那基本上我們現在一個單次颱風好像就真的破功了雖然我們花了他900萬"},{"start":179.679,"end":207.241,"text":"但是那個3萬光電板還留在原地沒有沒有沒有 早就清除到這個你早就清除是多早之前9月5號9月5號 對對好 那現在還有多少尚未清除全部清除了全部清除了那現在有1.2萬片它是放在準備站置區它準備去清除那那個是合法放置一般廢棄物的地方好我現在齁 我現在要再跟部長提醒一點就是說如果這次的颱風"},{"start":209.342,"end":213.874,"text":"他是更加倍那我們可以在915號就完全處理清楚嗎"},{"start":215.703,"end":244.646,"text":"這個可能你現在沒辦法答覆我啦因為要看那個狀況嘛如果它是2900多的兩倍有辦法在9月5號之前處理掉嗎因為當時颱風是7月份來嘛如果一個月的量是2800那應該也是要9月份就可以解決嘛邏輯上是這樣但是我們現在看到一個狀況目前台灣只有六家具有處理太陽光電的這個許可證的廠家嘛 對不對就是這廠家只有四家是甲級 兩家是乙級的"},{"start":245.527,"end":257.413,"text":"我不曉得環境部能不能還有這樣的胸口撐住的把握來跟全台的人民百姓說未來還是有能力來積極應用這種太陽光電板壽命到最後期的大量的台灣草"},{"start":258.556,"end":282.435,"text":"還有這個資訊嗎以現在這個家數來看包委員 其實因為這次因為這幾家大多數都是在北部那我們期待是有中南部也有一些業者那現在來看的話的確有兩三家的確有跟我們提出申請有這個意願來做這個事情所以我們會審慎的來規劃這個事情因為部長你從就任到現在其實你是也是"},{"start":283.537,"end":301.634,"text":"環位的三個部位被肯定最多的啦謝謝因為你都很積極的在因應而且反應速度也很快但是但是這些太陽光電板我真的會擔心是是處理不好不妥當會導致你的你的你的這樣的一個聲譽會真的會很大的受損那你聲譽受損相對的"},{"start":302.975,"end":319.224,"text":"也代表我們太陽能觀電的這些晦氣的量能處理得非常的讓人民無法接受嘛對不對我再補充一個資料我不曉得部長是不是有沒有掌握這樣的訊息一個足球場面積大約是7,140米然後2012年當時全國太陽能觀電板的建置大約是1,125個足球場"},{"start":329.895,"end":350.06,"text":"你說截至到目前為止他們光電板已經在台灣建置幾個足球場的面積我們現在15GW啦,1MW大概是一公頃所以是一萬五千公頃左右所以我要去算一下足球場的面積是多少"},{"start":351.455,"end":365.625,"text":"組長面積就是7140配妹啊 對不對那你再去乘以0.3 0.24嘛 對不對這個抓出來 差不多 差不多 委員長差不多1萬7千多截至目前經濟部公園院的統計已經高達1萬7723個足球場"},{"start":372.301,"end":393.997,"text":"的面積這麼大,也整整在短短的九年間台灣的光電板覆蓋面積已經增加到15倍年增率35%比台積電還強總面積約1.26億平方米相當於台北市的總面積的一半"},{"start":396.124,"end":411.883,"text":"真的不要再去說這個光電板20年的壽命問題或是這個天災人禍還有新階段幾乎已經是無法負荷的狀態全台只有4家甲級你環境部敢說這些有辦法幫你處理"},{"start":413.072,"end":432.325,"text":"我覺得委員會也不敢幫你背書啊況且這些處理業者是全部都清空專門在等待處理他們的光電板嘛也不可能嘛 對不對那剛剛部長你打呼我 我是抱歉給你吐槽嘛你說9月5號已經處理完畢嘛你暫制的還多少"},{"start":433.703,"end":448.693,"text":"暫制的還可以算是處理完畢嗎一萬兩千片 對嘛就是沒有處理完畢嘛只要是暫制的就不能叫做處理完畢啦應該是這麼說嘛所以我還是希望 我具體在這邊要求部長啦"},{"start":449.654,"end":470.169,"text":"不要因為這個事情摔了一大跤可能依照你的處理的事情的態度要更積極啦更快速來做這個因應啦是不是兩個週內可以盤點出來就像你講的那些處理業者基本上都在北部嘛那你北中南是不是要快速的來做一些相關的盤點甚至有規劃性的來做一些鼓勵"},{"start":471.39,"end":499.17,"text":"不要再到時候又有業者不積極配合還在嫌那個什麼成本不夠等等諸如此類的事情發生兩個星期內可以來來跟委員會再度的說明清楚你的規劃跟未來的這樣的一個部件嗎可以嗎好 謝謝你可能自己要立下軍令狀可能這個速度才可以趕得起來那第二件事情是這樣再過五天就10月25號部長知道是什麼日子嗎台灣關戶節沒有啦 跟你環境部有關"},{"start":500.804,"end":511.592,"text":"臺灣國務卿我不會問你吧部長的懷念讓我有點汗顏12月25號叫做清潔隊員日對 好 OK國務卿謝謝部長答覆"},{"start":516.997,"end":543.671,"text":"這是一個對你來講對全國的清潔隊員是一個非常重要的日子沒有這些辛勞的清潔隊員台灣的環境沒有辦法維持到這麼乾淨整潔啦但所以我們對這些清潔隊員我們都非常清楚他當然所屬是地方政府所轄管啦不管是一般的縣市市還是鄉鎮區公所來做這樣的一個管理但是部長知道嗎新北市政府現在對新北市的清潔隊員"},{"start":544.791,"end":573.676,"text":"健檢補助增加5000首創惠部的篩檢也就是惠部低劑量的電腦斷層LDCT嘛好那我不會去要求部長說全國22個縣市就一致全部的經費就拉到一樣嘛因為但是我們也不能讓這個縣市有錢就有做那個縣市沒有錢就不用做這對清潔隊員來講好像好像一國多次"},{"start":574.484,"end":594.045,"text":"那站在環境部身為一個主管機關我們要怎麼樣來因應這個事情報告委員因為我上禮拜也去頒獎我們傑出的優秀清潔隊員那我也非常感謝他們那其實我也關注到像包含了台北新北他們的福利跟其他的縣市是落差蠻大的"},{"start":594.725,"end":622.727,"text":"我們這邊當然是希望說全國有一個歧義的標準但是這個清潔隊員他還是屬於地方政府的地方自治的項目我們現在第一個是在法規上面我們是希望可以盡量的歧義有一個平台也會希望各縣市的縣市首長能夠重視這一塊第二個如果我們中央可以做得到的話我們會努力的希望能夠再爭取一些經費當然這個跟地方的還是有一點差距所以我們會努力來做這個事情"},{"start":622.987,"end":645.969,"text":"我要提醒部長做這件事情真的是非常有意義而且你站在環境部的最高的主管來看待這個事情照顧全國的清潔隊員課不容緩然後也不是說新北市有錢就來做那其他一般縣市我想這個惠部這個低劑量的斷層掃描基本上也符合賴總統在講的嘛他目前國建署衛福部的國建署就有針對高風險"},{"start":647.911,"end":676.833,"text":"有家族死的 有肺癌家族死的還是這個吸菸有這樣的狀態的兩年一次就免會來做LDCT的這樣一個檢查那清潔隊長期暴露在這個粉塵高風險的族群裡面那我們台灣的肺癌又是國病的第一名全球的15名那國健署又要配合賴總統所推的健康台灣希望這個肺癌支持率可以下降到三分之一"},{"start":678.432,"end":706.418,"text":"這一個特定的高風險的族群環境部的主管就應該來發聲要不要把他納入也是在免費的項目其中之一的對象這部長來喊這個話應該賴總統可以接受應該可以聽得進去嘛照顧全國所有的清潔隊員畢竟他們為我們台灣的環境每一個角落 每一個縣市 每一個鄉鎮公所他們扮演非常重要的角色他也是我們國家"},{"start":706.977,"end":730.765,"text":"我們政府的同仁也是我們的夥伴所以由你來發聲我覺得是最適當不過的是不是部長也可以來做一個承諾好 謝謝委員因為我也常常說台灣很需要台積電但是台灣不能一天沒有清潔隊員所以這個我也公開跟他們說所以我也在上禮拜我也跟他們的優秀的清潔隊員承諾我會來努力來爭取所以委員提出的建議我之前沒有特別想過謝謝委員 那我會來極力的來爭取"},{"start":733.246,"end":753.131,"text":"好我希望部長能在你的任內啦對於清潔隊員的照顧有相關的這樣的一個進步與提升啦好不好這個還是要給我一點時間來做處理嗎我給你時間啦你要給我時間答覆啦你多久時間要可以來努力到一個月一個月好不好一個月內喔好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝劉建國委員發言人"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，你現在是目前衛環主管三部會中，從去年520還健在的部長，你會不會擔心因為太陽能光電板而摔一大跤？我這樣提醒你不是沒有原因，因為你前幾位的部長，我大概都有提醒過太陽能光電板回收問題的嚴重，但大家好像都蠻樂觀，包含現在的環境部也一樣是樂觀地在面對這個事情，現在已經爆發了，我覺得如果持續抱持這樣的心態會很危險，我是2016年10月質詢當時的林全院長以及李應元署長有關太陽能光電板回收去化的議題，2016年就已經知道2031年會出現第一波太陽能板的汰換潮，但是2025（今）年丹娜絲颱風造成13.5萬片約2,800公噸的太陽能光電板毀損，讓去化問題立即發生。2025年到2031年還有6年，這6年大限也差不多快到了，會不會打破環境部原有的預估，還有當時的規劃？是不是要有很大的修正跟調整空間？我想這也是部長你講的，我是轉述部長的講法：丹娜絲颱風發生之後造成這麼多損毀，我們每個月可以去化2,900噸，理論上應該可以消化太陽能光電的廢板，問題主因來自單一業者的態度消極，延宕清運，甚至於因為計較處理成本而遲未付款，才導致進度落後。這是部長講的話。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：照理講明明都有回收基金，而且片片都有登記，又是案場業者的，再來，環境部應該也早跟業者有充分溝通，甚至在委員會也多次表示，包含屋頂型的，你們的回答好像都有相關積極因應的機制，不過那一次坦白講，我問了兩次之後，那個機制是到最後才比較肯定答復我。面對這麼龐大的建置量，現在一個丹娜絲颱風，好像就真的破功了，雖然我們罰了他900萬，但是3萬片光電板還留在原地……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，早就清除到……"],["劉委員建國：你早就清除是多早之前？"],["彭部長啓明：9月5號。"],["劉委員建國：9月5號？"],["彭部長啓明：對！"],["劉委員建國：現在還有多少尚未清除？"],["彭部長啓明：全部清除了，現在有1.2萬片是放在暫置，它準備去清除，那個是合法放置一般廢棄物的地方。"],["劉委員建國：我現在要再跟部長提醒一點，如果這一次的颱風是更加倍，那你們可以在9月5號就完全處理、清除嗎？你現在可能沒辦法答復我，因為要看狀況，如果它是2,900噸的兩倍，有辦法在9月5號之前處理掉嗎？因為丹娜絲颱風是7月份來，如果一個月的量能是2,800，那應該也是要9月份就可以解決，邏輯上是這樣嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是、是。"],["劉委員建國：但是現在看到一個狀況，目前臺灣只有六家具有處理太陽能光電板許可證的廠家，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：這些廠家有四家是甲級，兩家是乙級，我不曉得環境部還能不能有胸有成竹的把握，跟全臺的人民百姓說，未來還是有能力積極因應太陽能光電板壽命到最後期的大量汰換潮？以現在的家數來看，還有這個自信嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這幾家大多數都在北部，我們期待是中南部也有一些業者，以現在來看的話，的確有兩、三家跟我們提出申請，有意願來做這個事情，所以我們會審慎地規劃這個事情。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你從就任到現在，其實你是環衛的三個部會被肯定最多的啦！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝、謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：因為你都很積極因應，而且反應速度也很快，但是這些太陽能光電板，我真的擔心處理不好、不妥當，會導致你的聲譽有很大的受損，而你聲譽受損，相對的也代表太陽能光電這些廢棄的量能處理得非常讓人民無法接受。我再補充一個資料，我不曉得部長有沒有掌握這樣的訊息，一個足球場面積大約是7,140平方米，2012年當時全國太陽能光電板的建置，大約是1,125個足球場，你知道截至到目前為止，太陽能光電板已經在臺灣建置幾個足球場的面積？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在是15GW，1MW大概是1公頃，所以是一萬五千公頃左右，我要去算一下足球場的面積是多少。"],["劉委員建國：足球場面積就是7,140平方米，那你再去乘以0.3024就可以抓得出來。"],["彭部長啓明：差不多、差不多。委員，這樣差不多一萬七千多……"],["劉委員建國：截至目前經濟部工研院的統計，已經高達17,723個足球場的面積這麼大。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：短短9年間，臺灣的光電板覆蓋面積已經增加到15倍，年增率35%，比台積電還強，總面積約1.26億平方米，相當於臺北市總面積的一半，真的不要再去說光電板20年的壽命問題，光是天災人禍，現階段幾乎已經是無法負荷的狀態，全臺只有四家甲級，環境部敢說這些廠家有辦法幫你處理，我覺得委員會也不敢幫你背書啦！況且這些處理業者是全部都清空，專門在等待處理太陽能光電板嗎？也不可能嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，不可能。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛部長答復我，我是不好意思跟你吐槽，你說9月5號已經處理完畢，暫置的還有多少？暫置的還可以算是處理完畢嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：暫置的還有1萬2,000片。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！就是沒有處理完畢嘛！只要是暫置的就不能叫做處理完畢啦！"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：應該是這麼說嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以我在這邊具體要求部長，不要因為這個事情摔了一大跤，可能你處理事情的態度要更積極啦！"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：要更快速來做因應啦！"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["劉委員建國：是不是兩週內可以盤點出來？就像你講的，那些處理業者基本上都在北部，那你北中南是不是要快速的來做一些相關的盤點，甚至有規劃性的來做一些鼓勵，不要到時候又有業者不積極配合，還在嫌成本不夠等等諸如此類的事情發生。兩個星期內，可以來跟委員會再度說明清楚你的規劃跟未來的布建嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。你可能自己要立下軍令狀，處理速度才可以趕得起來。","第二件事情，再過五天就是10月25號，部長知道是什麼日子嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：臺灣光復節。"],["劉委員建國：沒有啦，跟你環境部有關啦！臺灣光復節我不會問你吧？部長的反應讓我有一點汗顏，10月25號叫做清潔隊員日。"],["彭部長啓明：清潔隊員日，對、對。"],["劉委員建國：好，OK，謝謝部長答復。這對你、對全國清潔隊員都是非常重要的日子，沒有這些辛勞的清潔隊員，臺灣的環境沒有辦法維持這麼乾淨、整潔。我們對這些清潔隊員都非常清楚，他們是地方政府所轄管，不管是一般縣市、直轄市，還是鄉鎮區公所，但是部長知道嗎？新北市政府現在對新北市的清潔隊員健檢補助增加到5,000元，首創肺部篩檢，也就是肺部低劑量電腦斷層（LDCT）。我不會要求部長全國22個縣市要一致，全部的經費要拉到一樣，但是我們也不能讓這個縣市有錢就有做、那個縣市沒有錢就不用做，這對清潔隊員來講，好像一國多制，環境部身為主管機關，要怎麼樣因應這件事情？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我上禮拜去頒獎給傑出的優秀清潔隊員，我也非常感謝他們，其實我也關注到包含臺北、新北，他們的福利跟其他的縣市是落差蠻大的，我們這邊當然希望全國有齊一的標準，但是清潔隊員還是屬於地方政府地方自治項目，現在第一個是在法規上面，我們希望可以儘量的齊一，有一個平臺，也希望各縣市的首長能夠重視這一塊。第二個，如果中央可以做得到的話，我們會努力，希望能夠再爭取一些經費，當然這個跟地方還是有一點差距，但我們會努力來做這件事情。"],["劉委員建國：我要提醒部長，做這件事情真的是非常有意義，而且你站在環境部最高主管的角度來看待事情，照顧全國的清潔隊員刻不容緩。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：然後也不是說新北市有錢就來做，其他一般縣市就沒有，我想這個肺部低劑量的斷層掃描，基本上也符合賴總統在講的，目前衛福部國健署就有針對高風險族群，有肺癌家族史、有吸菸的對象，提供兩年一次免費LDCT的檢查，清潔隊員長期暴露在粉塵，屬於高風險的族群，臺灣的肺癌又是國病的第1名，全球的第15名，國健署又要配合賴總統所推的健康臺灣，希望肺癌的致死率可以下降到三分之一。這一個特定高風險的族群，由環境部主管，就應該發聲把他們也納入在免費項目其中之一的對象，由部長來喊話，賴總統應該可以接受啦！應該可以聽得進去嘛！照顧全國所有的清潔隊員，畢竟他們為臺灣的環境、每一個角落、每一個縣市、每一個鄉鎮公所，他們扮演非常重要的角色，他們也是國家政府的同仁，也是我們的夥伴，所以由你來發聲，我覺得是最適當不過的，是不是部長可以來做承諾？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員，我也常常說，臺灣很需要台積電，但是臺灣不能一天沒有清潔隊員，這些我也有公開跟他們說，我在上禮拜也跟這些優秀的清潔隊員承諾，我會來努力來爭取，有關委員提出的建議，我之前沒有特別想過，謝謝委員，我會極力地來爭取。"],["劉委員建國：我希望部長能在你的任內，對於清潔隊員的照顧有相關的進步與提升，好不好？這個還是要有一點時間來做處理吧？我給你時間，你也要給我答復的時間，你多久時間可以努力做到？"],["彭部長啓明：一個月，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：一個月內？好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員發言。","請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bb6b555400d3af4ef9336e3c0e2d3d52383c966d97180d5d2b6269e3722f5e7cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:19:27 - 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早我想針對大家非常關心的我們潛艦國造的進度上禮拜經過機密的報告和巡打之後今天還是就這個部分能夠公開的部分來進行相關的討論有關潛艦的準備工作先前外界都猜測是主機和電力管理系統還有整合式的載台管理系統"},{"start":45.3,"end":65.661,"text":"的問題 所以還沒有完成那是因為遇到困難 但是這次我們國防部的報告當中已經有指出因為相關的功能驗證涉及到多方不同國家的一個共同施作要協調廠家的排程 進而導致時間拉長"},{"start":67.222,"end":93.744,"text":"那是不是就這個部分請教我們副參謀長能夠在完整的說明騎乘延宕的原因確定不是這個遇到技術上的瓶頸那另外還有沒有其他的因素可能會影響到後續的測試的一個騎乘在這個報告的結語我們有寫到要加速達成海上測試的目標實際上有什麼"},{"start":94.885,"end":102.011,"text":"這個做法能夠在確保安全和品質的這個狀況之下同時加速完成這個目標報告委員會請海軍參謀長就這個細節跟您回覆"},{"start":106.056,"end":130.687,"text":"委員早 感謝委員關心那如同委員剛才所提到的目前就是在主機的這個電力管理系統還有IPMS的部分那因為這個都是比較屬於前追前航他需要一個比較要的一個全建的動力的一個系統跟整個控制信號的一個部分所以那海軍是屬於的職責就在做專案管理跟"},{"start":132.047,"end":158.001,"text":"跟這個建造所以每一項海軍軍艦的測試海軍都必須要簽署所以我們必須要嚴格的把關所以在這些每個要件簽署跟這個合理的這個這個履約的這個同時那我們對於它的每項的工作的執行的進度我們也都是非常如履薄冰來做所以當初才會希望說我們在潛航以前就必須要完成自動充電的完成"},{"start":158.661,"end":178.059,"text":"所以在這個部分目前我們比較確切的就是這一段可能就是在我們當前就是去必須要把這一段這兩個項目給做完之後那我們其他的這個裝備的現況現在可以要能夠接到到來做後續的這個潛航的測試目前是這樣跟委員說的所以這個廠家的串聯相關的這個問題應該都沒有了吧"},{"start":180.822,"end":203.578,"text":"那目前台船跟海軍然後跟整個的整合的部分都已經做好多方的協調對後續的廠家的測試還有整個的進度調控還有包含剛才前面講的IPMS那廠家也我們也台船也特別請了國內的一個廠家來共同參與那來做一個整個節點的能夠共同來配合然後把後續的驗測趕快按這個時間來推動"},{"start":206.479,"end":233.943,"text":"好 那也請我們能夠確實掌握相關的期程那之前這個部長也說過目前的進度來看海昆號要在11月順利交建會是一個很大的挑戰那台船如果沒有辦法一約在11月交建應該會有相應的這個處罰那其中針對海軍索賠的這個機制是不是就能夠公開的部分進一步說明"},{"start":235.163,"end":258.491,"text":"包括他的計法次數還有金額相關的懲處的時間點會是在哪裡另外我們也知道合約在設計上除了違約的各種情境跟配套的賠償外也設有解除合約的機制我們這一案應該是不會走到這個地步吧"},{"start":260.693,"end":284.174,"text":"包委員我們整個現在目前你到如果11月份按原先合約的交件會在11月那11月份的話如果沒有違約的部分我們是以這個千分之百分之千分之0.1的這個照件款那目前大概是一天是19萬部分那剛才有提過就是上限是百分之二十的照件款"},{"start":284.807,"end":303.001,"text":"一天19萬 是那由於是我們第一次做潛艦所以我們當初這個訂定的也是經過一個審慎的一個評估讓這個台船能夠在合宜的時間內把潛艦能夠如期的做出來那當時台船應該也是這個同意吧是的簽訂的時候是同意"},{"start":303.982,"end":329.734,"text":"好 那另外有關上個月我們這個前 潛艦的這個小組召集人我們黃曙光上將請辭之後那有許多的傳言認為可能會影響到後續作業的這個推動針對這個部分我想請教我們副參謀長目前潛艦國造計畫是否有所謂的這個負責人而高層的這個人事異動是不是會影響到後續計畫的一個推動"},{"start":331.829,"end":345.167,"text":"二報委員跟您說明第一個是我們還是要感謝黃之偉從擔任海軍司令時候開始啟動潛艦國造的奉獻與付出我們要對他表達衷心的感謝"},{"start":346.348,"end":372.124,"text":"現在這個黃志偉黃前總長已經離職之後現在是由海軍一約專案管理跟建造所有的這個督導跟這個持續的進行都是無縫接軌持續在進行我們會繼續督導船廠按照建造建的規範執行履約和交建督管的機制的運作不會因為人員更迭和異動受到影響我們現在仍然在一約在執行"},{"start":372.904,"end":390.698,"text":"好 那有所謂的這個負責人就是我們現在已經現在就是交由海軍的專案管理人員來繼續負責好 那現在除了這個原型艦還有這個困難需要解決以外還有同時要為我們後續艦持續進行評估和精進的部分"},{"start":391.138,"end":418.965,"text":"那除了先前被凍結的這個50%10億元的這個後續件預算那必須在原型件通過海測然後到立法院來進行解凍報告經過同意後才能使得凍資那明年度我們有編列119.5億的預算要全數通過也有相當大的一個挑戰那我想請教這個副參謀長如果後續我們這個後續件的這個預算被原型件"},{"start":419.625,"end":445.099,"text":"的這個連帶問題所影響甚至研發和造建的人員持續流失是否會對於我們後續建的這個推動產生自愛難行的部分第一部分是實際上我們這個仍然依照之前部長在這邊答詢所說的也在我們這個後續建第一批兩艘建造合約都簽署都有明訂待原型建要通過海撤之後才會支付款項"},{"start":445.979,"end":464.057,"text":"那有關這個台船這個後續他們繼續的規劃或者是人員的這部分據我們的了解台船根據這個在預算方面他們也有做他們自己的這個規劃跟這個相關的應付的措施那可以在"},{"start":464.898,"end":476.429,"text":"他們的自己的計畫內繼續的推動這個潛艦國造的各項的細部的工作不會影響後續艦的進度好 就台船在這個合理的範圍之內還有辦法 還是會持續推進是的"},{"start":481.094,"end":506.212,"text":"我們第一艘自製的潛艦可能會遇到很多的困難我相信我們不管是國防部還是海軍都已經感受到了需要逐一的去克服解決不但需要這個時間也必須以安全和品質為優先按部就班來完成尤其是我們官兵安全應該是要擺在首要的位階也藉此再提醒一次我們國防部"},{"start":507.212,"end":521.563,"text":"務必要確保安全才能執行後續的作業也讓之後的這個潛艦測試能夠平安順利的進行那也有利於我們未來我們所造出的潛艦是真的能夠發揮最大的效應那另外"},{"start":522.284,"end":547.875,"text":"同樣針對這個海軍戰力提升還有我們明年元旦要成立的這個冰海作戰指揮部目前我們已經知道規劃是納入海豐大隊還有海偵部光六飛彈快艇以及這個自海飛彈修復中心等單位並且賦予他這個軍團級的作戰部隊的位階相關的經費也已經編列到明年度的這個預算當中那"},{"start":548.675,"end":562.045,"text":"先前我們參謀長在備詢的時候有提到我們的兵子部在防務不只24海里目前針對兵子部的任務是否有更明確的一個劃分包括未來"},{"start":563.941,"end":580.492,"text":"這個與我們建址部在指揮鏈的這個關係當中會不會出現權責不清的部分那並且與這個海巡的這個協調又如何來配合是不是針對這個部分我們還是就能夠公開的部分做簡要的說明"},{"start":581.392,"end":607.267,"text":"報委員跟您報告當初我們在編設這個濱海作戰指揮部的時候就是根據作戰的需求來設計的所有的這個編制裝備跟人員都是在這個作戰指揮店的一條線下規劃出來了所以現在已經針對在作戰的時候建址部如何運用局指揮這個濱海作戰指揮部的這一部分都有明確的詳細的律定"},{"start":608.368,"end":617.72,"text":"另外有關後續相關的這個人員的編織的調整裝備的獲得以及這個海巡的協調實際上現在是按計畫在進行並沒有上面自來的問題"},{"start":621.466,"end":648.338,"text":"沒問題 都在按計畫在進行好 那針對我們這個反艦飛彈的部分我們也向美方採購了100套400枚的這個岸置魚叉飛彈系統在2026年底我們要先交運32套那其中部分的這個飛彈發射車和雷達車也已經運抵我們台灣由海豐大隊這個接裝訓練那我想請教就是目前我們這個"},{"start":649.659,"end":663.355,"text":"安置魚叉飛彈 籌貨的進度如何第一批的飛彈 彈體是否確定可以在年底前交付敢在我們兵子部成立前能夠就定位這部分請海軍常務長回答"},{"start":664.325,"end":686.858,"text":"委員好 有關賓子部目前都還在整個編設的規劃上那整個時間節點會到明年的我們現在是暫顧是明年的年中七月份才會有初步的編裝的一個生效那我們這整個的推顧也是按照整個飛彈的裝備 接裝的結角 接收的一個部分"},{"start":687.378,"end":711.608,"text":"那目前的話那個後續的話大概會到年底到年明年年初會陸續的這個會開始陸陸續續的這個膠狀的節點會陸陸續續來推動那後面重點就是在在明年部分我們也會依照這個編社所需要這個部分還要再跟廣部去把未來的這個到明年年中之前把我們的前置作業給完成拿來達到他應該有的一個關鍵戰力的一個前置作業"},{"start":712.435,"end":730.215,"text":"好 那我們飛彈可以按照期程就定位吧就是從年底到明年第一第二季都是陸陸續續的在做這些遞交好 那另外再最後一個問題我想請教一下我們兵子部對無人機無人艇的運用有沒有提出相關的規劃和需求"},{"start":732.097,"end":760.055,"text":"是 報告委員就是說有關於無人機跟無人艇的部分現在我們都已經規劃在兵子部的整個兵海打擊的重層結集這一段所以這兩類的規劃我們都已經納入了相關的建案的程序但是因為很多的BN社還有預算的BN社還沒有完全獲付預算以前我們詳細的內容我們比較抱歉沒有辦法提供比較細部那委員如果需要的部分我們再到委員辦公室跟向委員做報告"},{"start":760.635,"end":761.399,"text":"好 謝謝我們副參謀長 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":342,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時19分）謝謝召委。我們有請副參謀總長黃上將，還有海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮中將。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：副參謀總長，早。我想針對大家非常關心的議題，我們潛艦國造的進度，上個禮拜經過機密的報告和詢答之後，今天還是就能夠公開的部分進行相關的討論。有關潛艦的整備工作，先前外界都猜測是主機和電力管理系統及整合式儎台管理系統的問題，所以還沒有完成，但在這次國防部的報告當中已經有指出，因為相關的功能驗證涉及到多方不同廠家的共同施作，要協調廠家的排程，進而導致時間拉長。是不是就這個部分請教副參謀長，能夠再完整說明期程延宕的原因，確定不是遇到技術上的瓶頸？另外，還有沒有其他的因素可能會影響到後續的測試期程？在報告結語你們有寫到要加速達成海上測試的目標，實際上有什麼作法能夠在確保安全和品質的狀況之下，同時加速完成目標？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，我請海軍參謀長就這個細節跟您回復。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員早，感謝委員關心。如同委員剛才所提到的，目前就是在主機的電力管理系統及IPMS的部分，因為這都是比較屬於淺水潛航，它需要全艦的動力系統跟整個控制信號的部分。海軍職責就在做專案管理跟監造，每一項海鯤軍艦的測試，海軍都必須要簽署，所以我們必須要嚴格把關，在每個要件簽署跟合理履約的同時，對於它每項工作的執行進度，我們也都是非常如履薄冰來做，所以當初才會希望我們在潛航以前，就必須要完成自動充電。在這個部分，目前我們比較確切的可能是在當前必須要把這一段的這兩個項目做完之後，其他的裝備現況要能夠接得到來做後續潛航的測試，目前是這樣跟委員說明。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以廠家串聯的相關問題應該都沒有了吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：目前台船跟海軍、跟整個整合的部分都已經做好多方的協調，對後續廠家的測試及整個進度的調控，還有包含剛才前面講的IPMS，台船也特別請了國內的廠家來共同參與，整個節點能夠共同來配合，把後續的驗測趕快按時程來推動。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，也請你們能夠確實掌握相關的期程。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是、是。"],["陳委員俊宇：之前部長也說過，以目前的進度來看，海鯤號要在11月順利交艦會是一個很大的挑戰，台船如果沒有辦法依約在11月交艦，應該會有相應的處罰。其中針對海軍索賠的機制，是不是就能夠公開的部分進一步說明，包括它的計罰次數，還有金額？相關懲處的時間點會是在哪裡？另外，我們也知道合約在設計上，除了違約的各種情境跟配套的賠償外，也設有解除合約的機制，這一案應該是不會走到這個地步吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，目前如果按原先合約交艦會在11月。"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：那11月份的話，如果有違約的部分，我們是以千分之零點一的造艦款，目前大概是1天是19萬，剛才有提過上限是百分之二十的造艦款。"],["陳委員俊宇：1天是19萬？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是！由於我們是第一次做潛艦，我們當初訂定也是經過審慎評估，讓台船能夠在合宜的時間內把潛艦如期做出來。"],["陳委員俊宇：當時台船應該也是同意吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是的！"],["陳委員俊宇：簽訂的時候是同意啦，好。","另外，上個月潛艦的小組召集人黃曙光上將請辭之後，有許多的傳言認為可能會影響到後續作業的推動。針對這個部分，我想請教副參謀總長，目前潛艦國造計畫是否有所謂的負責人？而高層的人事異動，是不是會影響到後續計畫的推動？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，跟您說明，第一個，我們還是要感謝黃諮委從擔任海軍司令時就開始啟動潛艦國造的奉獻與付出，我們要對他表達衷心地感謝。黃諮委、黃前總長已經離職之後，現在是由海軍依約專案管理跟監造，所有的督導跟進行都是無縫接軌，持續在進行，我們會繼續督導船廠按照造艦的規範，執行履約和交艦，督管機制的運作不會因為人員更迭和異動受到影響，我們現在仍然依約在執行。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，有所謂的負責人，就是我們現在已經……"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：現在就是交由海軍的專案管理人員來繼續負責。"],["陳委員俊宇：現在除了原型艦還有困難需要解決以外，同時要為我們後續艦持續進行評估和精進的部分，除了先前被凍結50%、10億元的後續艦預算必須在原型艦通過海測，然後到立法院進行解凍報告，經過同意後，才始得動支。明年度有編列119.5億的預算，要全數通過也是相當大的挑戰。我想請教副參謀總長，如果後續艦的預算被原型艦的問題連帶所影響，甚至研發和造艦人員持續流失，是否會對於後續艦的推動產生窒礙難行的部分？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：第一部分，實際上我們仍然依照之前部長在這邊答詢所說的，也在第一批後續艦兩艘艦的合約都簽署、都有明定，待原型艦要通過海測之後才會支付款項。有關台船後續的規劃或者是人員的部分，據我們了解，台船在預算方面，他們也有做他們自己的規劃跟相關應處的措施，可以在他們自己的計畫內繼續推動潛艦國造各項細部工作，不會影響後續艦的進度。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。就是台船在合理範圍之內還有辦法支應的話，還是會持續推進。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是的！"],["陳委員俊宇：我們第一艘自製的潛艦可能會遇到很多的困難，我相信不管是國防部及海軍都已經感受到了，需要逐一去克服解決，不但需要時間，也必須以安全和品質為優先，按部就班來完成，尤其是官兵安全，應該是要擺在首要位階，也藉此再提醒國防部，務必要確保安全才能執行後續的作業，也讓之後的潛艦測試能夠平安順利地進行，也有利於未來我們所造出的潛艦真的能夠發揮最大效益。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，同樣針對海軍的戰力提升，還有明年元旦要成立的濱海作戰指揮部，目前我們已經知道規劃是納入海鋒大隊、海偵部、光六飛彈快艇以及制海飛彈修護中心等單位，並且賦予它軍團級作戰部隊的位階，相關經費也已經編列到明年度的預算當中。先前參謀長在備詢時有提到，濱指部要負擔的防務不只24海里。目前針對濱指部的任務是否有更明確的劃分，包括未來與艦指部在指揮鏈的關係當中，會不會出現權責不清的部分，並且與海巡的協調又如何來配合？是不是針對這個部分，還是就能夠公開的部分簡要地說明？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：報告委員，跟您報告，當初我們在編設濱海作戰指揮部的時候，就是根據作戰需求來設計，所有的編制、裝備跟人員都是在作戰指揮鏈的一條線下規劃出來的，所以現在針對在作戰的時候，艦指部如何運用及指揮濱海作戰指揮部這一部分都有已經明確、詳細地律定。另外，有關後續相關人員編制的調整、裝備的獲得以及跟海巡的協調，實際上現在都是按計畫在進行，並沒有上面窒礙的問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒問題喔？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：沒問題，都是按計畫在進行。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，針對反艦飛彈的部分，我們也向美方採購了100套、400枚岸置魚叉飛彈系統，在2026年底要先交運32套，其中部分的飛彈發射車及雷達車也已經運抵臺灣，由海鋒大隊接裝訓練，請教目前岸置魚叉飛彈的籌獲進度如何？第一批飛彈彈體是否確定可以在年底前交付，趕在濱指部成立前能夠就定位？"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：這部分我們請海軍參謀長回答。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好。有關濱指部，目前都還在編設的規劃上，整個時間節點我們現在暫估是明年年中（7月份）才會初步編裝生效。我們這整個的推估也是按照飛彈裝備接裝、解繳與接收的部分，目前後續大概年底到明年年初開始，交裝的節點會陸陸續續推動。後面重點就是在明年，我們也會依照編設所需要的部分，再跟國防部把未來到明年年中之前的前置作業完成，達到它應該有的關鍵戰力的前置作業。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那我們飛彈可以按照期程就定位嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，就是從年底到明年。"],["陳委員俊宇：都沒問題？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：對，第一、第二季都是陸陸續續在做這些遞交。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，另外再最後一個問題，我想請教一下濱指部對於無人機、無人艇的運用，有沒有提出相關的規劃和需求？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，有關於無人機及無人艇的部分，現在我們都已經規劃在濱指部濱海打擊的重層截擊這一段，這兩類規劃我們都已經納入相關的建案程序，但是因為很多編設及預算的編設還沒有完全獲付預算以前，比較抱歉，詳細的內容我們沒有辦法提供比較細部，委員如果需要這部分，我們再到委員辦公室向委員報告"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝副參謀總長，謝謝。"],["黃副參謀總長執行官志偉：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝。"],["主席：先宣告待會林楚茵委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘，現在請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},{"id":"164371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164371","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b014716396b7e85666d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d2fa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"10:13:58 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10:24:31","影片長度":"00:10:33","會議時間":"2025-10-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-10-20","start_time":"2025-10-20T10:13:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-10-20T10:24:31+08:00","duration":633,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第4會期司法及法制、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":4,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,22],"id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.995968750000001,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.817218750000002,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.000968750000002,"end":37.712843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.92784375,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.05221875,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.63784375,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.83159375,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.05846875,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.64471875000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.82159375,"end":71.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.12096875,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.27659375,"end":76.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.41971875,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.90034375,"end":88.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.15596875,"end":91.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.18971875000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.35409375,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.14721875000001,"end":105.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.41534375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.79471875,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.10909375000001,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.63846875000002,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.17846875,"end":144.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.71846875,"end":136.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.86909375000002,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.67596875,"end":166.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.66721875000002,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.01221875000002,"end":179.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.96909375,"end":180.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.55971875,"end":187.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.42784375000002,"end":193.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.05971875,"end":208.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.01096875000002,"end":209.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.70284375,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.44096875000002,"end":226.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.83096875,"end":238.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.35659375,"end":239.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.21284375000002,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.35971875,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.82471875000005,"end":283.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.07096875,"end":284.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.13409375000003,"end":287.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.13784375,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.62721875,"end":291.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.86721875,"end":298.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.20784375,"end":303.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.40971875,"end":312.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.61096875000004,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.76221875000005,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.44096875,"end":347.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.97221875,"end":354.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.67596875000004,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.54409375,"end":367.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.97346875000005,"end":369.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.39096875,"end":375.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.97221875,"end":397.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.48784375,"end":397.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.33159375,"end":405.80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謝謝好 麻煩諸次長還有夫人市長 黃懷次長 謝謝"},{"start":31.392,"end":57.148,"text":"主席還有各位大家好那我們看到的今天在討論的是公立學校的教職人員的退休資遣跟撫恤條例98條已經說明了政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口那請問一下權敘部跟教育部撥補公教退輔基金是否是為義務處長"},{"start":60.887,"end":88.205,"text":"依照98條規定 有缺口政府來 教育部的部分負責在教育人員的部分好 那主計總署人員都是義務吧依法規定就是按精算報告的對 按照精算報告那同樣問題在問主計總署這部分是否已經有將退伏基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目"},{"start":89.775,"end":106.463,"text":"我們依法來辦理 你們依法來辦理好 依法辦理 所以 依法好 這邊我們看到 希望這一邊會是非常重要的 因為它是影響到我們的這邊教職人員非常重要的一個部分 這邊看到的態度 好 但是可以看到的是 你可以看到人"},{"start":107.83,"end":126.781,"text":"主計總署的人員請告訴我因為我們看勞保跟勞保的基金啊都可以長期的就在做撥補但是公交基金為什麼沒有被被撥補被拖延是不是雙重標準的存在啊報告委員就是在我們並沒有說依照我們是依照精算報告來撥補那110"},{"start":130.583,"end":143.509,"text":"3年到115年我們已經總共撥補了500多億所以並沒有拖延撥補沒有沒有沒有我們先往下看這部分也是根據精算報告裡面所看出來的既然是這樣的話我們繼續往下看你們在112年之後的這個撥補情形可以看到"},{"start":149.511,"end":160.558,"text":"因為精算報告你也說到精算報告裡面特別講到是新制的缺口的部分呢他有提到是說應該分的10年或20年這部分來講317等等可是你們這到113年的時候呢確實撥補了100億並沒有照精算報告啊那這邊"},{"start":167.242,"end":179.25,"text":"但這邊更重要的是說你們到底是依照十年還是二十年的看起來應該是只要二十年的那教育部長 教育組次長您這邊有在跟行政院長報告這邊你們到底是用十年還是二十年的嗎"},{"start":180.645,"end":207.671,"text":"依照精算報告 部裡面我們是以十年 針對新制的缺口是以十年來撥補對 那你十年的話 可是看到真正一百三年的時候事實上是一百億來講 差額這麼大這樣子的話 並沒有真正保障教師的權益那我們甚至看到當初說一百 如果用新制來做撥補的話呢破產年已經是到一百三十五年那這一百三十五年 因為當初"},{"start":209.091,"end":220.825,"text":"的 這個這個報告當中呢 精算報告特別講到的是說用50年來計算的話是一個比較長期穩定的部分那你如果111年加50年就是說162年來講的話這邊就是 他再指的退休的話你們到時候就變成說"},{"start":226.872,"end":232.055,"text":"你們表示162年就不算了嗎更重要的是100現在擴散年是135年啦那135是變零的情況之下是不是會導致後來的現在在職的老師們他沒有辦法就是到時候就沒有錢了"},{"start":245.61,"end":265,"text":"這個基金就已經是沒有錢了怎麼辦呢所以在這個情況之下我們可以特別看到是你們後來在114年的情況呢也沒有還缺口有計算報告也是缺了12億115年目前的話事實上看起來是有把它補起來齁但是這個地方我想看的是說足額撥補是一件很重要的事情交易部跟"},{"start":266.874,"end":287.561,"text":"跟主席處這邊跟全序支部這邊是不是能夠承諾啊因為你沒有撥補的話會怎麼樣的情況之下他到時候135年甚至134年之後的都沒有錢了怎麼辦呢這對老師是很大的打擊尤其是朱市長你應該可以知道是我們連施培生也不願意加入了啊對吧這地方就很嚴重的問題朱市長你是不是要回應一下"},{"start":289.942,"end":314.263,"text":"因為目前115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補這三年113 114跟115其實我們已經預算是216億那之後就會跟上如果分20年撥補的話一年是要83億所以我們會補上這個缺口你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了因為"},{"start":316.745,"end":344.964,"text":"110年跟20年撥補下來的這個差異超過1700多億這怎麼算盤怎麼會算得出來尤其是主計總署這邊去算這是非常奇怪的那這邊我們可以看到的是130足的撥補這樣講那剛才也報告說上個禮拜的有施仁傑部長也提到這個內容也提到說這個教職人員的這個退補基金的他時間會更早那再問教育部的是說那如何因138年之後的公教退補基金會破產的這個情況"},{"start":346.504,"end":366.049,"text":"跟委員報告因為如果政府沒有持續撥補的話確實會有以目前來講確實會有在以交易人員的部分在131年確實有歸零但是這是在政府沒有撥補的情況那我想根據退伍條例政府要負最最後的支付保證責任所以這一塊"},{"start":368.09,"end":387.966,"text":"我們不會讓這種情形對 所以你們要足額對不對是不是可以承諾要做足額的這部分而且你們是 再更重要的是因為 最重要的是因為他的撥補或是不只是撥補啦 包括的是所得就是說他要每個人個人支付的這個金額要提高那你們有這個改革的說再次年金改革的這個時程嗎因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題啊你看到這個公務人員這個提撥的這個差距啊這麼高 差距到十幾%這種情況是有在想說要做再繼續再改革嗎"},{"start":398.705,"end":409.141,"text":"在107年年改推動之後如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走那政府我們來搭配撥補我想那個退伍基金是可以永續的我們會努力"},{"start":410.185,"end":432.458,"text":"好 我們繼續再往下抱歉主席再給大概一分鐘我們看到的是教育人員跟退輔給予的這個調整當中因為在這個退輔條例當中提到的是說到消費者指數增幅達到5%跟或是到4年的時候應該4年來去檢討可是我們看到的是以主計總署所看的部分主計總署的人員 這個專員兩位專員這邊看到了CPI過去的時候漲了兩次可是"},{"start":437.461,"end":464.427,"text":"以今年來講的話到1.5你們過去賬的兩次是沒有錯齁但是我們看到的是今年在六月份的新聞裡面呈現到的是說總共的368項的裡面的這個食物240項的價格上漲尤其是包括的是外食的食物費用3.5肉類漲4.8水果跟暴漲18.56是不是還包括房租這些部分如果是目前以這樣子的一個退幅"},{"start":464.867,"end":484.013,"text":"基金這個條例當中所呈現出來的那個內容來講並沒有實質反映到人們的尤其是教職人員的這樣的一個薪水所呈現的出來的他的年金所需要的部分那這部分是不是可以考慮說應該考慮到有實質的購買力去做一個調整有沒有這樣的一個打算"},{"start":485.648,"end":511.737,"text":"報告委員就是主席總署的CPI調查是根據所有的這個物價的上漲的狀況那並不是會針對某特定的年金的調整等等去做計算我們是根據所有的物價調漲的項目來做調查的所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已是不是不是我們是針對所有物價調查那是不是反映年金的這部分我們沒有做單項的這些調整的調查上"},{"start":514.898,"end":535.223,"text":"好 希望主計總署這邊 特別要去針對到反映到人民的 尤其是教師他在退輔之後他的一個他所購置的實質的購買力去做調整因為是不是應該做一個整體的報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢"},{"start":537.384,"end":564.703,"text":"是不是請朱市長那邊或是主技術那邊做一個回應呢應該 尤其是朱市長您是教育部的代表在所謂教師人的這個代表教育人業界的這個聲音是不是可以反映出來就是說這部分應該必須要反映到實質像這樣的情況是 各位委員報告因為如果是用像是購買力的話它可能會受到一些短期供需的一個變動幅度比較大但是我們會可以提供一個分析的說明給委員做參考"},{"start":565.143,"end":580.506,"text":"好 謝謝那這部分包括就是包括年金合理的這個退休情形當然教育部或者是說權序部等等都提出來說因為沒有因為這個沒有這樣的錢或是沒有這個這個事實上是不條件不允許他是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形啊因為更具體的一個效果要呈現出來就是必須把很多就是可能要做一下溝通這部分具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟更大"},{"start":592.509,"end":604.932,"text":"跟我們的所有全體國人特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通溝通這個說明的這個屬於因為你教育部 朱市長你這邊是不是也可以就是說把這個年紀實際上是算 精算報告大概50年嘛那是不是能夠呈現出它這個效果"},{"start":606.314,"end":629.741,"text":"我們會後也針對第九次計算報告的一些有關於教職員的部分我們也提供一份說明給委員做提供好 謝謝那這部分就想講說這部分應該要做確實的做個全部的撥補那這個追蹤報告也要做一下應該根據民生的物價做一個調整機制那叫做停侃的方案我覺得也須要跟民眾說清楚這邊好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝劉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（10時14分）請教育部朱次長，還有行政總處的……主計處的人員跟銓敘部的政次，謝謝。"],["主席：好，麻煩朱次長還有副人事長和懷次長，謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：主席還有各位大家好，我們看到今天在討論的是公立學校教職人員的退休資遣撫卹條例，第九十八條已經說明了，政府應該依照精算的結果撥補新制實施後的基金缺口，請問一下銓敘部跟教育部，撥補公教退撫基金是否為義務？朱次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：依照第九十八條規定，有缺口由政府撥補，教育部是負責教育人員的部分。"],["劉委員書彬：好，請主計總處人員。這都是義務吧？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：依法規定是按精算報告。"],["劉委員書彬：對，是按照精算報告，剛剛同樣的問題再問主計總處，是否已經有將退撫基金的撥補當作是預算的優先項目？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：我們依法來辦理。"],["劉委員書彬：你們依法來辦理？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：對。"],["劉委員書彬：好，依法辦理，這部分是非常重要的，因為它影響到我們教職人員非常重要的部分，這邊看的到他們的態度。我們可以看到，也請主計總處的人員告訴我，勞保基金都可以長期的做撥補，但公教基金為什麼沒有被撥補、被拖延？是不是有雙重標準的存在？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：報告委員，我們是依照精算報告來撥補，113年到115年我們已經總共撥補了五百多億，所以並沒有拖延撥補。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有、沒有，我們繼續往下看，這部分也是根據精算報告所看出來的，既然是這樣，我們繼續往下看，在112年之後的撥補情形可以看到，你也說到精算報告，精算報告裡面特別講到新制的缺口，有提到應該分10年或20年，總值317億，可是到113年的時候卻只撥補了100億，並沒有照精算報告啊！更重要的是，你們到底是依照10年還是20年的？看起來應該是20年的，請問教育部朱次長，您這邊有跟行政院長報告你們到底是用10年還是20年的嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：依照精算報告，我們部裡面是以10年期程，針對薪資缺口是以10年來撥補……"],["劉委員書彬：對，以10年來撥補，可是以113年事實上是撥補100億來講，差額這麼大，這樣並沒有真正保障教師的權益。我們甚至看到，如果用新制來做撥補的話，破產年是135年，當初精算報告特別講到，用50年來計算是比較長期穩定的，111年再加50年就是162年，如果到時候在職的退休，變成162年不算了嗎？更重要的是，現在破產年是135年，135年變成零的情況之下，是不是會導致現在在職的老師們沒有辦法領到，到時候就沒有錢了？這個基金沒有錢了，怎麼辦呢？","在這個情況之下，我們可以特別看到的是，你們後來在114年也還有缺口，依照精算報告也缺了12億，目前看起來是有把它補起來，但這個地方我想看的是，足額撥補是一件很重要的事情，教育部跟跟主計總處、銓敘部這邊是不是能夠承諾？沒有撥補會是怎麼樣的情況？到時候135年甚至134年之後都沒有錢了，怎麼辦呢？這對老師是很大打擊。尤其朱次長應該很可以知道，我們連師培生也不願意加入了，對吧？這個地方有很嚴重的問題，朱次長你是不是要回應一下？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，115年我們已經編了92億要來做新制的回補，113年、114年跟115年這三年，其實我們預算是216億，之後就會跟上，如果分20年撥補的話，一年要83億，我們會補上這個缺口。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你們這樣的撥補是不是太奇怪了？因為10年跟20年撥補下來的差異差不多是一千七百多億，這算盤怎麼會算得出來？尤其是主計總處去算的，這是非常奇怪的。這邊我們可以看到的是，剛剛講到足額撥補，也包括上個禮拜施能傑部長也提到這個內容，也提到教職人員的退撫基金時間會更早，再問教育部的是，如何因應138年之後的公教退撫基金破產的情況？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，如果政府沒有持續撥補的話，以目前來講，在教育人員的部分，131年確實有歸零，但這是在政府沒有撥補的情況，根據退撫條例，政府要負最後的支付保證責任，所以這一塊我們不會讓這種情形……"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以你們要足額，對不對？是不是可以承諾要做足額？而且最重要的是，這不只是撥補，包括每個人支付的金額要提高，那你們有再次年金改革的時程嗎？因為這樣的情況其實是很嚴重的問題，你看到公務人員提撥的差距這麼高，差距到百分之十幾，之後有想要再繼續做改革嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：在107年年改推動之後，如果我們按照這樣的機制下去走，搭配政府的撥補，我想退撫基金是可以永續的，我們會努力。"],["劉委員書彬：抱歉，主席，再給大概1分鐘。","我們繼續再往下看，我們看到教育人員跟退撫給與的調整，因為在退撫條例當中規定「消費者物價指數累計成長率達正、負百分之五時，應予調整……或至少每四年應予檢討」，可是我們看到的以主計總處的部分來說，主計總處的兩位專員，過去因為CPI的因素有調整過兩次沒有錯，但是以今年來講的話，5月CPI上漲了1.5%，我們看到今年6月份的新聞所呈現的是說，總共368項物價查價項目中有240項價格上漲，尤其是外食費年漲幅達3.5%、肉類上漲4.8%，水果更暴漲18.56%，甚至還包括房租等其他部分。如果以目前退撫基金條例中所呈現出來的內容來講，並沒有實質反映到人民，尤其是教職人員年金所需要的部分，這部分是不是應該考慮以實質購買力去做一個調整？有沒有這樣的打算？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：報告委員，主計總處對CPI的調查是根據所有物價的上漲狀況，並不會針對某特定年金調整等等去做計算，我們是根據所有的物價調漲項目來做調查的。"],["劉委員書彬：所以不是只有針對物價指數CPI而已，是不是？"],["吳專門委員婉玉：不是，我們是針對所有物價去調查，但是不是反映了年金的這個部分，我們沒有做單項調整的調查，以上。"],["劉委員書彬：好，希望主計總處這邊特別要針對並反映到人民，尤其是教師在退休之後的實質購買力，以此去做調整，你們是不是應該要做一個整體報告給教育部跟教育委員會呢？是不是請朱次長或是主計處這邊做一個回應？尤其是朱次長，您是教育部的代表，代表了教育界的聲音，是不是可以反映，這部分應該要反映到實質情況？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，如果是用實質購買力的話，可能會受到一些短期供需變動幅度比較大的影響，但是我們會後可以提供一個分析及說明給委員做參考。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["劉委員書彬：這部分包括年金合理的退休情形，當然教育部或者是銓敘部等等都提出因為沒有這樣的錢，或是實際上的條件不允許，是不是可以有些具體的模擬情形？因為更具體的效果要呈現出來，而且可能要做一下溝通，具體的模擬情形絕對是要跟我們所有全體國人，特別是要跟立法委員要做溝通及說明的。教育部朱次長這邊是不是也可以呈現出來，因為這個年金的精算報告大概50年嘛，是不是能夠呈現出那個效果？"],["朱次長俊彰：好，我們會後也針對第9次精算報告中有關於教職人員的部分提供一份說明給委員做參考。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。簡單來說，這部分應該要確實的做全部的撥補，相關的追蹤報告也要做，而且應該建立反映民生物價的年金調整機制，要做停砍的方案，我覺得也要跟民眾說清楚。謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員。","接下來請葛如鈞委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b55acee3e90fc06e26d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d2fa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:07:07 - 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謝謝主席 我們請教育部次長 謝謝有請朱次長市長好上次我總質詢有問部長關於這個抖音TALK的問題最近教育部有沒有做什麼事"},{"start":28.572,"end":41.472,"text":"跟委員報告 我們目前針對小紅書跟抖音這方面的來自中國的APP依照行政院的指示 事實上我們都有一些相關的建議措施來"},{"start":43.795,"end":70.277,"text":"比如說在小紅書我們有提出不迷小紅書 青春不迷圖在抖音的部分我們有短影音專區針對裡面可能涉及的一些詐騙或是一些不實 錯假訊息我們都有整理出來放到專區未來也會再從專區去哪裡放 去抖音放還是怎樣專區我們會你看抖音的人 你要說抖音的不好你不就拿去抖音放 這樣看得到嗎"},{"start":73.597,"end":86.185,"text":"我們目前大概是第一個部分是掛在我們各學校網站你如果要掛 你如果掛說要處理這條 要做這短片你就去投影把它放 說你這投影不好那你投影這要傳回來給人家看到邏輯是不是這樣因為我剛才說的時候補充叫院長說要"},{"start":95.717,"end":103.762,"text":"請一些團體大家討論這個國中小校園禁用抖音的事情嘛這事情要加速因為家庭啊 家庭都遲遲的多教育現場的老師啊 會覺得說 哇 這可能麻煩麻煩啊 一些小朋友啊 也知道這個消息因為覺得說 哇 這樣我臨時不能看所以多方的考量所以請教育部啊"},{"start":122.984,"end":129.053,"text":"在這一題上面 大家討論就是不一定答案是什麼 我是主張要緊"},{"start":130.965,"end":154.305,"text":"我是主張要這個校園 內地啦齁 當然這個 數位部 他們有說嘛齁他們有說這個 就是 把這個抖音在校園裡頭 給它屏蔽掉啦齁阿抖音叫TikTok 一樣的東西不是給一個英語而已 再高級不是說 喔喔TikTok不是抖音TikTok就抖音啦 什麼英語而已啦那後台也是中國啦 幾乎幾乎什麼 喔TikTok就不是 都是"},{"start":159.429,"end":166.531,"text":"研究看看 這校園裡面都要緊張好 第二個我請問一下 現在我們今天討論的這些條文剛剛有委員說這個所得替代率 說什麼B 六天再加給我量一段 量到B50幾%這數字是怎樣 給我補充 沒時間談 你講一下"},{"start":186.825,"end":215.092,"text":"跟委員報告因為是不同性質的一個保險或職業年紀的性質其實以所得替代率來講或許在有有些部分老保會比較高可是因為回到實際的投保薪資來講其實整體來說公教人員的月退租金還是普遍的比老保所領的月退還要高普遍啦公教捏比老保還多這聽起來也正常正常"},{"start":216.147,"end":231.81,"text":"因為公交要科技嘛公交要科技所以現在你說你省給平均5.8萬現在已經退休了啦我請問你退休的公交人員現在最多多少最多多少一個位這因為跟他的薪職年資不太一樣我知道我知道最多可以多多少平均"},{"start":246.789,"end":269.903,"text":"跟委員報告 平均來講 因為剛剛有報告過平均來講大概是五萬八嘛沒有啦 這平均就不準 有人捏多 有人捏少 最多要捏多少最多這主流可能還要查再給委員沒有 你如果說這個什麼公立學校的老師 做到好長對不對要四十年四十年退休 他最多要捏多少"},{"start":270.899,"end":288.184,"text":"跟委員報告 最多在這裡的資料大概八萬六八萬六 最少的最少有到三萬幾喔但是三萬幾的人其實大概差不多一千六百幾為什麼你那麼少"},{"start":289.468,"end":301.356,"text":"這就是剛才市長說的因為這年資有關係跟他當時在限職的時候他的本薪是有關係的所以本薪本來就低"},{"start":302.079,"end":318.814,"text":"然後他可能那個年資也不長那就退了是不是這樣我跟委員報告一個數據就是說我們如果以實質的所得替代率來講大概落的區間就是最高到最低大概是落在你薪資大概是73%到53%左右"},{"start":321.758,"end":332.047,"text":"那這樣子的一個所得替代率 大概跟OECD國家比起來我們最低都還是OECD 其他國家比不要比啦 因為其他國家的物價水準不一樣啦我們現在跟社會說 其實退休的老師 退休的老師啦公益學校的老師 最多啦 最高的 已經做三四十年 退休的他也差不多八萬幾啦 我這樣說對不對 最高"},{"start":348.14,"end":350.805,"text":"阿子豪做這關的 他可能本地薪水就多 連資委也沒做到很久他就拿了 他也只有三萬幾啦"},{"start":358.397,"end":376.961,"text":"這樣說對不對目前的地板是3萬7啦地板是3萬7那有一些比3萬7更低是因為在連改之前它本來的月退就是比較低所以那個原來就低於3萬7的這次的連改根本不會去動到好 這樣剛才說這條時間有調過6%所以你想這3萬多的它也對在調就對了8萬多的也都有對在調是"},{"start":385.066,"end":398.27,"text":"那那個條的機制就是今天有委員提出來的幾年檢討百分之多少就從那個地方動了嘛對不對是 67條很明確的規定就是政府百分之五或是我們如果沒有條每四年就會檢討一次好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時7分）謝謝主席，我們請教育部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請朱次長。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["王委員義川：次長好。上次我總質詢有問部長關於抖音（TikTok）的問題，最近教育部有沒有做什麼事？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，我們目前針對小紅書跟抖音這方面來自中國的app，依照行政院的指示，事實上我們都有一些相關的建議措施。比如說在小紅書，我們有提出「不迷小紅書，青春不迷途」；在抖音的部分，我們有短影音專區，針對裡面可能涉及的一些詐騙或是不實錯假訊息，我們都有整理出來放到專區。未來也會從各個……"],["王委員義川：專區去哪裡放？去抖音放還是怎樣？"],["朱次長俊彰：專區我們會……"],["王委員義川：看抖音的人，你要跟他說抖音的不好，你不就要拿去抖音放，他們才看得到？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。目前大概第一個部分是掛在我們各學校網站……"],["王委員義川：你如果要掛、要處理這件事、要做這個短片，你就要去抖音放，說你們抖音不好，這樣抖音才會傳回來讓大家看到，邏輯是不是這樣？"],["朱次長俊彰：這個我們沒想到，我們來研究。"],["王委員義川：因為我上次講的時候，部長跟院長說要請一些團體來討論國中小校園禁用抖音的事情，這事情要加速。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["王委員義川：因為家長比較多是支持的，而教育現場的老師會覺得這可能會麻煩，一些小朋友也知道這個消息，他們會覺得這樣他改天就不能看了，所以多方的考量，請教育部在這議題上面大家來討論，不一定答案是什麼，但我是主張要禁，我是主張校園裡面要禁。當然數位部有說，把抖音在校園裡頭屏蔽掉，但抖音跟TikTok是一樣的東西，不是取一個英語名字就比較高級，不是說TikTok不是抖音，TikTok就是抖音，寫英語而已，後臺也是中國啦，假鬼假怪！什麼TikTok就不是，全部都是！你們研究看看，校園裡面都要禁掉。"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["王委員義川：第二個我請問一下，我們今天討論的這些條文，剛剛有委員說所得替代率比勞工還要低，還唸到比率是百分之五十幾，這數字是怎樣？剛才部長沒時間可以說，你說一下。"],["朱次長俊彰：因為是不同性質的保險或職業年金的性質，以所得替代率來講，或許有些部分勞保會比較高，可是因為回到實際的投保薪資來講，其實整體來說，公教人員的月退休金還是普遍比勞保所領的月退還要高。"],["王委員義川：普遍啦！"],["朱次長俊彰：對。"],["王委員義川：公教領比勞保還多，這聽起來也正常正常的啊，因為公教要考試嘛！所以現在你們算起來平均差不多5.8萬……"],["朱次長俊彰：平均5.8萬。"],["王委員義川：就是現在已經退休的嘛！"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["王委員義川：是已經退休的。好，我請問你，現在退休的公教人員最多領多少？"],["朱次長俊彰：最多領多少？"],["王委員義川：一個月。"],["朱次長俊彰：因為這跟他的薪職、年資不太一樣……"],["王委員義川：我知道、我知道，最多可以領到多少？"],["朱次長俊彰：平均，最多……"],["林處長建璋：跟委員報告，剛剛有報告過，平均來講大概是5萬8,000元。"],["王委員義川：沒有啦，看平均不準，有人領多、有人領少，最多可以領到多少？"],["林處長建璋：最多領多少，相關的資料，可能還要查。"],["王委員義川：如果公立學校的老師當到校長，做了30年、40年退休，他最多大概可以領多少？"],["林處長建璋：跟委員報告，根據我這裡的資料，最多大概8萬6,000元。"],["王委員義川：8萬6,000元？"],["林處長建璋：是。"],["王委員義川：那最少呢？"],["林處長建璋：最少有到三萬多，不過三萬多的人其實差不多是一千六百多人。"],["王委員義川：為什麼領那麼少？"],["林處長建璋：就是剛才次長說的，因為和年資有關係，也跟他當時現職時的本薪有關係。"],["王委員義川：所以本薪本來就低，他可能年資也不長就退休了，是不是這樣？"],["朱次長俊彰：我跟委員報告一個數據，我們如果以實質的所得替代率來講，最高到最低的區間大概是落在薪資73%到53%左右，這樣的所得替代率跟OECD國家比起來，我們最低都還有……"],["王委員義川：不要和其他國家比，因為大家的物價水準不一樣。我們現在跟社會說，其實退休的公立學校老師最多、領最高的像校長，已經做了30年、40年退休的，他們也差不多領八萬多，我這樣說對不對？"],["朱次長俊彰：最高。"],["王委員義川：好，學校職員可能本來薪水就低，可能年資也沒有很久就退休了，他也領三萬多，這樣說對嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：目前的地板是3萬7,000元。"],["王委員義川：地板是3萬7,000元？"],["朱次長俊彰：對，有一些比3萬7,000元更低是因為在年改之前本來的月退就比較低，所以原來就低於3萬7,000的，這次年改根本不會去動到。"],["王委員義川：好，剛才有說到，這段時間有調過6%，所以最少三萬多的人也跟著調就對了？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["王委員義川：八萬多的也跟著調？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["王委員義川：關於調的機制，也就是今天有委員提出來的，幾年檢討百分之多少，就從那個地方動了，對不對？"],["朱次長俊彰：是，在第六十七條很明確的規定，就是正負百分之五，如果沒有調，每4年就會檢討一次。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員總是非常遵守時間，謝謝您。","接下來我們請劉書彬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164369","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164369","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bad20adb833d876b8720e647d743851f483c966d97180d5d2fa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:07:02 - 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這個的心得因為我們現在算是針對過去世家的量能來算而且以前沒有過那麼大的經歷那現在我有要求我同仁說是不是可以再算一次甚至可以跟能源署說未來因為未來如果這個廢清法或是資源循環促進法"},{"start":285.986,"end":314.496,"text":"這個通過的話我們是希望由我們來環境部來協助管理這個太陽能板的一個回收這會更比較明確現在是交給他們那當然這個費用目前來看的話跟現實上有差距的委員說的是的確是一個重點那我們現在就是未來就要跟能源署來協商討論這個話題我希望能夠解決委員提到這個的確是有差距的還有風災後 青運不確實我們帶多的業者環境部準備怎麼處理"},{"start":315.703,"end":340.236,"text":"目前我們現在擁有的工具就是廢青法所以包含了那一家很不努力的業者就一直持續在發我們也會動員我們的這個稽查去巡檢如果它還持續就會持續的在開發上面這些問題如果不補起來所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠後端灰"},{"start":341.036,"end":361.881,"text":"我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會的協作的需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來再麻煩部長這邊那關於光電案場的一個環評我想先請你說明他跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同目前的對應機制是什麼"},{"start":362.646,"end":384.968,"text":"包委員因為那個各種的工業喔他會一蓋下去之後他可能就會持續的污染整個環境那光電呢其實放在那個地方他不會污染他基本上他會製造很多的能源所以如果說我們把一個面積跟這個工業區擺在一起其實這個不大相等這個我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的一個概念那目前的我們"},{"start":385.789,"end":413.69,"text":"當然雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突而且他是有利於淨零的但是他對於生態跟社區民眾的感覺之間還是有些差距所以現在如果大家有疑慮我也認為說我們似乎能夠在這種環評或是檢核機制或是跟社會溝通部分能夠做得更好之後我們才來更往下走所以本來太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧"},{"start":414.358,"end":431.561,"text":"空間生態人文等影響並與我們的環評制度來做銜接可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮那甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的一個制度那部長你覺得問題出在哪邊"},{"start":432.222,"end":461.16,"text":"我覺得可能過去等於是我們一直要急於衝量啦那這個溝通上面可能比較不足那我相信經過這一兩年這個大家有一些不一樣的意見之後大家坐下來談然後甚至我們本部也願意能夠針對大家認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊我們主動來做研究我希望在未來在短期半年到一年一兩年內能夠把這個問題能夠再更釐清然後才持續的往前走但是我必須說一定要有一個平衡點"},{"start":462.18,"end":476.129,"text":"所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣水跟廢棄物的污染而是土地利用的衝突包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵"},{"start":478.71,"end":493.024,"text":"這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策衝突可能就是會越來越大所以我們就期待就是是不是我這邊有三點建議就是為什麼會這樣提呢像高雄河山裡的光電場破壞"},{"start":493.744,"end":515.381,"text":"山坡違規開發被撤照之後河山場的周邊海域也出現泥流引發生態疑慮彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生卻因為生態疑慮爭議不斷這些都說明我們的環社的檢核制度觀念上正確可是沒有辦法防範風險回應地方的衝突"},{"start":517.503,"end":539.191,"text":"最後三點建議 第一個社會生態經濟人文影響的評估機制要完善化避免事後對立第二個是分級處理環境風險對影響低的項目簡化程序 減少不必要的爭議還有針對大型的開發案明確定出一個規模或累積開發的標準讓制度更有預測性"},{"start":539.691,"end":560.516,"text":"避免模糊空兼備濫用部長這三點可以嗎可以委員你提的建議事實上是我們現在有沒有需要要跨部會協調的地方有因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談創造一個新的機制因為我也願意協助推動所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強怎麼和"},{"start":562.276,"end":577.04,"text":"我們的環評的那個制度那個協調讓他真的能夠支撐綠能發展而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了好可以謝謝委員你的非常寶貴的意見那部長請回再麻煩我們的經濟部次長請次長"},{"start":586.567,"end":612.123,"text":"委員好 剛好我問到回收基金的欠缺欠繳跟費率不足的問題請次長說明一下經濟部你的看法基本上我們現在在做不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在生設的部分我們是要求廠商依照我們的規範來做 他們目前每千瓦他必須要繳交一定的"},{"start":612.857,"end":635.206,"text":"數量的這個肥瘦的金額但是他是分一定的時間來分析來攤體然後就他發電量來做攤體接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡我們設定2026年要達20GW但業者說現在一個地面型的光電暗場從申請到並聯平均需要6到7年"},{"start":636.326,"end":653.82,"text":"根本進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準而是讓程序更有效率更合比例像歐洲針對於低風險的案場簡化環評設定明確的實現甚至有與其視為同意的一個機制所在"},{"start":654.54,"end":682.04,"text":"也會畫設加速區讓成熟技術用更快速篩選的取代農場的流程來縮短那個時程又不影響到品質所以我們希望你是不是部長我們的問題不只是慢而且常常事實上是又慢又複雜多頭審查 程序重疊我們的案場事實上是沿途民眾抗議"},{"start":682.68,"end":703.788,"text":"投資風險升高不只業者的困擾還可能讓2026 2030年的那個目標全面落空產業競爭力也會被拖垮那審計部也特別提醒選址的一個相關議題所以今天是不是可以請次長回答說第一你有沒有盤點過現有的機制是哪一段的程序最拖時間"},{"start":706.323,"end":731.962,"text":"謝謝委員給我時間做說明燈光電的發展在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢而縮短行政的流程這也是全世界各國所努力的方向那目前我們從今年的3月開始去年年底開始就跟農業部還有包括其他的部會甚至包括法務部也進來我們是希望說其一的審查標準這第一個第二個的話是公開"},{"start":733.163,"end":758.431,"text":"透明的一個機制這個機制的話我們有設立一個官網把每一個深色中的一個案場的審查時程把它爐列出來然後第三個部分是我們現在在加速的是我們每兩個禮拜跟地方政府來開會針對於他個別的是不是有一個整體性的一個問題或是有法規認定的一個問題我們希望有一個歧義的標準來加速審議的過程"},{"start":759.659,"end":762.325,"text":"第二能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區針對低風險暗場簡化流程"},{"start":768.074,"end":793.7,"text":"原則上我們現在已經針對所有的光電的發展包括國土計畫包括我們土地的這個需求來做我們的光電的一個推動的一個重要的一個進程那目前為止的話當然屋頂型還有包括地面型是佔了相當大的比例那今天大家所很多其他委員所關切的所有的水面型它佔的比例相"},{"start":794.46,"end":819.919,"text":"相對我們現在發展的這個太陽光電的比例還相對的比較少大概是只有6%第三我想怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質這個是因為等於時間關係所以沒辦法讓你回答不過還有一個根本的問題就是發電就是需要土地所以民間推估2050年的目標至少要5萬公噸的一個土地"},{"start":820.519,"end":835.239,"text":"那完工請的一個土地不同的類型不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制歐盟也要求各國精準計算我們光電需求盤點可用土地明確區分優先使用區位"},{"start":836.7,"end":864.394,"text":"國土計畫聯動我們有沒有做有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標所以請你 次長這邊我們如何盤點流程 簡化流程並做好土地運用的評估確保台灣又能夠又好又快的話請進部在一個月內把這些相關的一些光電發展跟土地策略規劃給我們辦公室沒有問題 謝謝次長謝謝林月琴委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（10時7分）麻煩彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。我想今天你可能還是會面對到很多錯假甚至偽造訊息的問題，我相信國人也都很支持再生能源，可是也希望你要去釐清民眾對於錯假訊息的一些疑慮，比如說光電場設好之後，對環境會不會有影響，在土地、海上或水面上會不會釋放出有毒的物質，今天都有看到你的報告，氣體或污水，也就是你在報告裡面呈現的這些東西是不是能夠讓大家知道，甚至各類案場到底如何清潔，這部分有沒有規範？如果是破損、破裂的光電板長時間浸泡在海水跟酸性水中，剛剛聽你講大概有三個月的時間，事實上也沒有溶出有害物質。所以我認為除了對外說明以外，還要去闢謠，否則民眾會不安，可是我們還是要來討論一個問題，雖然這些材料不會產生污染，不會在地分解，可是還是要處理，所以重點是在後端的維護、回收跟破損的清運不能隨便處理。","部長，光電板是再生能源的主力，但不能只談裝得快不快，要問的是回收跟清潔得夠不夠確實，現在能處理廢棄光電板的甲級業者一年的量大約是5萬公噸，根本不夠2039年所預估的10萬公噸，當然我關心的不只是量，還有質，全循環高值化的處理每個月只有650公噸，大多是比較低階的，所以看起來我們高值化的質OK的只有650公噸，所以大部分還是處在低階、破碎、價值不高的，比較浪費資源。所以部長，政府到底有沒有具體的時程以及擴增計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於回收，其實現在有好幾家中南部的業者也主動來跟我們申請可以處理回收的光電板，我們是期待中南部可以有一些量能出來，因為這一次其實是突然來了十幾萬片，從來沒有遇過，全世界也沒有遇過，等於是說大家都在這個經驗中學習，但是我相信有這次經驗之後，在這個流程、程序上，甚至委員提到的廢清法，還有我們的資源循環促進法，未來我們都會把這個概念融入進去這兩個法裡面。"],["林委員月琴：對，那是什麼時候？因為我剛剛有提到，不是只有量，還要考慮到質的部分，什麼時候能夠讓高值化技術變成主流，讓矽晶片跟銀等貴重金屬被完整回收？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在我們看到幾家業者中，最多的那一家在苗栗，已經可以全回收到92%，有一家做得很好，可是它的費用比較貴，可以做到99%全回收，因為我們也考量到這是市場機制的供需，所以我們希望未來都可以達到99%以上。"],["林委員月琴：廢清法修法後能不能一路追蹤到應用端？因為現在回收流程只能追到處理廠端，後端再生料流向沒有人管，循環經濟就根本沒有辦法驗證。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["林委員月琴：再來，我們來問費用跟制度的問題，因為環團跟我反映，主計月刊估算到2045年頂多收173億，但處理成本是397億，落差224億，再加上業者的欠費高達將近4億元，這樣的制度怎麼永續？另外，有符合污染者付費的原則嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我們現在算是針對過去那4家的量能來算，而且以前沒有過量那麼大的經歷，現在我有要求同仁說是不是可以再算一次，甚至可以跟能源署說……因為如果未來廢清法或是資源循環促進法通過的話，我們是希望由環境部來協助管理太陽能板的回收，這會比較明確，現在是交給他們，當然，以目前來看的話，這個費用跟現實上是有差距的。"],["林委員月琴：是，落差很大。"],["彭部長啓明：委員說的的確是一個重點，我們未來就是要跟能源署協商、討論這個話題，我們希望能夠解決委員提到的這個問題，的確是有差距的。"],["林委員月琴：好。部長，還有有關風災後清運不確實，環境部準備怎麼處理怠惰的業者？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在擁有的工具就是廢清法，所以包含那一家很不努力的業者，都一直持續在罰，我們也會動員我們的稽查去巡檢，如果它還持續，就會持續再開罰，我們目前只有這樣的工具。"],["林委員月琴：所以部長，我要提醒你，上面這些問題如果不補起來，所謂綠能恐怕會落入到前端綠、後端灰，我要求環境部在一個月內把回收計畫跟跨部會協作需要的一些內容完整送到我的辦公室來，再麻煩部長這邊。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝。"],["林委員月琴：關於光電案場的環評，我想先請你說明，這跟其他工業開發的環評需求有什麼不同，以及目前的對應機制是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為各種工業一蓋下去之後，可能會持續污染整個環境，而光電放在那個地方，其實不會污染，基本上它會製造很多的能源，所以如果我們把同樣的面積跟工業區擺在一起，其實不大相等，這部分我相信可能是之前就沒有特別去訂環評的概念。雖然說沒有對於環境有立即的衝突，而且它是有利於淨零的，但是在生態的部分，與社區民眾的感覺之間還是有一些差距，所以如果大家有疑慮，我也認為我們在環評或檢核機制或是跟社會溝通的部分做得更好之後，我們再來往下做。"],["林委員月琴：對，太陽光電的環境跟社會檢核機制原本是要兼顧空間、生態、人文等影響，並與環評制度來做銜接，可是實際上卻被批評無法回應地方居民的疑慮，甚至被質疑事實上是方便產業的制度。部長，你覺得問題出在哪邊？"],["彭部長啓明：我覺得可能是因為過去我們一直要急於衝量，在溝通上面可能比較不足，我相信經過這一、兩年，大家有提出一些不一樣的意見之後，大家坐下來談，甚至我們本部也願意針對大家所認知的太陽光電對環境的衝擊主動來做研究，我希望未來在短期的半年到一、兩年內能夠把這個問題再更釐清，然後才持續往前走，但是我必須說，一定要有一個平衡點。"],["林委員月琴：所以光電案場的最大風險不在於傳統的空氣、水跟廢棄物的污染，而是土地利用的衝突，包括漁業養殖跟農業用地被排擠等問題，這也就是為什麼社會經濟影響評估變得非常的關鍵，這部分如果沒有前期評估跟對策，衝突可能就會越來越大，所以我這邊有三點建議，我為什麼會這樣提呢？像高雄和山里光電場破壞山坡、違規開發被撤照之後，和山光電場周邊也出現泥流，引發生態疑慮；彰化永興養殖區想發展漁電共生，卻也因為生態疑慮而爭議不斷，這些都說明我們環社檢核制度觀念上正確，可是沒有辦法防範風險、回應地方的衝突。所以有三點建議：第一個，社會、生態、經濟、人文影響的評估機制要完善化，避免事後對立；第二個，分級處理環境風險，對影響低的項目簡化程序，減少不必要的爭議；還有針對大型的開發案，明確訂出規模及累積開發的標準，讓制度更有預測性，避免模糊空間被濫用。部長，這三點可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，委員你的建議，事實上是我們現在最需要……"],["林委員月琴：有沒有需要跨部會協調的地方？"],["彭部長啓明：有，因為這個可能是我們要跟經濟部跟農業部一起坐下來談，創造一個新的機制，那這個……"],["林委員月琴：因為我也願意協助推動，所以請你在一個月內說明這項機制要怎麼補強、怎麼和環評的制度協調，讓它真的能夠支撐綠能發展，而不是讓綠能卡在衝突裡面動不了。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，謝謝委員非常寶貴的意見。"],["林委員月琴：部長，請回。再麻煩經濟部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：次長，剛剛我問到回收基金的欠繳跟費率不足的問題，請次長說明一下經濟部的看法。"],["賴次長建信：基本上我們現在在做的，不管是太陽能光電的發展或是在申設的部分，我們要求廠商依照我們的規範來做，目前每千瓦必須要繳交一定數量的回收金額，但是它是在一定時間來分期攤提，以它的發電量來做攤提。"],["林委員月琴：接著我想談速度跟品質的平衡，我們設定2026年要達20GW，但業者說現在一個地面型的光電案場，從申請到併聯平均需要6到7年，進度根本就追不上我們的能源轉型，國際經驗告訴我們不是放寬標準，而是讓程序更有效率、更合比例，像歐洲針對低風險案場的簡化環評、設定明確時限，甚至有逾期視為同意的機制所在，也會劃設加速區，讓成熟技術用更快速篩選取代冗長的流程，縮短時程又不影響到品質。","部長，我們的問題不只是慢，而且事實上是又慢又複雜，多頭審查、程序重疊，我們的案場事實上是面臨民眾抗議，投資風險升高，不只業者困擾，還可能讓2026、2030年的目標全面落空，產業競爭力也會被拖垮。審計部也特別提醒選址的相關議題，所以今天是不是可以請次長回答，第一，你有沒有盤點過現有的機制中，哪一段程序是最拖時間？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員給我時間說明。太陽能光電的發展，在全世界各國都是一個重要的趨勢，而縮短行政流程也是全世界各國所努力的方向。我們從去年年底開始就跟農業部還有其他部會，甚至包括法務部也進來，希望有一個齊一的審查標準，這是第一個；第二個，是公開、透明的機制，這個機制我們有設立一個官網，把每一個申設案場的審查時程臚列出來；第三個，我們現在在加速的是每兩個禮拜跟地方政府開會，針對於是不是有一個整體性的問題，或是有法規認定的問題，我們希望有齊一的標準來加速審議的過程。"],["林委員月琴：好。第二，能不能比照國際經驗設計有條件的加速區，針對低風險案場簡化流程？"],["賴次長建信：原則上，我們現在已經針對所有的光電發展，包括國土計畫、土地需求，來做為推動光電發展的重要進程，目前為止，屋頂型還有包括地面型，是占相當大的比例，今天很多委員關切的所謂水面型部分，相對於我們現在發展的太陽光電比例，還算是比較少的，大概只有6%。"],["林委員月琴：第三，怎麼確保我們能加快時程又不犧牲開發品質，因為時間關係，所以沒辦法讓你回答，不過還有一個根本的問題，就是發電需要土地，所以民間推估2050年的目標，至少要有5萬公頃的土地，而不同類型、不同區位的土地要有對應的分級跟評估機制。歐盟也要求各國精準計算光電需求、盤點可用土地、明確區分優先使用區位，並與國土計畫連動，這部分我們有沒有做、有沒有要設定優先的順序跟目標？要如何盤點流程、簡化流程，並做好土地運用的評估，確保臺灣能夠又好又快，請經濟部在一個月內把這些有關光電發展跟土地策略規劃資料給我們辦公室。"],["賴次長建信：沒有問題。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164368","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b972c9b5938f7d6139336e3c0e2d3d52383c966d97180d5d27082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:03:59 - 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海軍參謀長好 是的吼 那這個今天媒體報導有提到在我們海軍的大氣海洋局裡面有這個林昌玉的局長要求下屬服報預算這件事情請問你們目前有了解跟掌握嗎"},{"start":23.307,"end":48.013,"text":"各位委員報告我想這件事情他們海軍已經在進行行政調查當中所以我們會秉持這個無完無中的原則來做相關的一些調查那我先說明一下在媒體的報導裡面是提到在去年5月的時候我們在準備這個國土安全的韌性預算的會議裡面"},{"start":49.574,"end":61.029,"text":"這個呢 海軍的大氣海洋局的林昌玉局長呢竟然喔 知道自己的預算其實可以拿到很多第一個 他涉嫌喔 教唆我們的其他的公務人員們 軍人們如何規避審計"},{"start":64.674,"end":70.596,"text":"第二個他說叫大家預算多寫一點能騙就騙第三個他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億那我們看到這個新聞的時候我們覺得非常非常的憤怒為什麼我們才剛通過這麼多的預算當時只要是好像包含是馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出了一些預算的刪減等等的你們是如何的哭天喊地啊"},{"start":91.624,"end":112.59,"text":"你們是如何的說這些預算我們非常需要啊結果原來你們裡面的局長直接講說叫人家預算多寫一點 用騙的然後說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億我先請問一下大氣海洋局在我們任性的這個特別預算裡面他們總共申請了多少費用 幾項計畫韓營商部長報告"},{"start":119.707,"end":138.339,"text":"請說啊是 鮑偉那個就他媒體因為他並沒有跟我們本部有先查詢也沒有跟當事人也先過說過一個查證所以相關的資料我們覺得已經正式的立案我們來做一個調查但是我們也初步發覺有些的資訊上面還要更釐清"},{"start":138.999,"end":164.346,"text":"那甚至以這個他所提到您剛才所提的這個防疫韌性其實在去年五月份的時候整個這個預算的規劃跟其他的並沒有就是時間節點是有點出入他意思是他自己開的嘛不是跟你沒關係他自己開的嘛我剛剛問的問題是說因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了嘛那我要問的是說大氣海洋局他最終跟你們申請的是多少的經費跟幾項計畫細部的部分"},{"start":167.875,"end":180.544,"text":"報表員他大概是主要是因為大氣局他必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的 我知道大概有他有三棟的大樓要實施興建大概需要16億左右到17億的預算所以他升幾項計畫幾項計畫"},{"start":183.166,"end":201.065,"text":"三項的一個設施三項的設施計畫大概17億左右嘛對不對那17.5億這個數字呢跟報導報導的是相當一致的齁那我必須要講請你們提供相關的計畫這三項計畫的完整的說明給我們"},{"start":202.233,"end":218.049,"text":"因為我們要知道當時我們合過了這個預算之後它到底有沒有被正常的去使用啊還是它其實已經變成一個弊案啊還是說它真的有多幅報預算啊所以這個部分是不是可以請你們把你剛剛講的三項計畫17億的相關細節的報告提供給國防外交委員會的委員需要多久時間"},{"start":225.449,"end":232.994,"text":"報委員他詳細的都有一些因為這個是上週才剛通過的預算他計劃寫了嘛計劃我們到時候會把中整資料會送到委員報對 如果你們自己都沒有計劃的話那你立案調查什麼呢你一定是有他的計劃有他的預算有他的細項你們才有調查可能性啊那不然你都說立案調查怎麼可能會沒有資料"},{"start":247.702,"end":262.436,"text":"那為什麼有資料不能給我們今天是立法院所通過的這個預算如果裡面有撥編的情形如果裡面有騙預算騙人民納稅錢的情形當然立法委員要知道啊不然以後我們接下來要怎麼討論接下來的預算通過啊"},{"start":263.357,"end":285.632,"text":"那如果每一個局數都這樣子的話那還省什麼預算呢是 報言剛剛已經說過要會中程好送到是 好 那謝謝接下來要問海昆號的部分那關於呢我們在這個潛水的測試裡面那要驗證這個戰鬥系統嘛那我們是否有向美方這邊租借操雷驗測的裝備"},{"start":289.445,"end":305.235,"text":"是有的 那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候我們租借的這個期程會到 效期是會到明年我們從什麼時候到什麼時候 你不要只講到明年嘛從今年的五月份會到明年的那個年中左右"},{"start":305.675,"end":327.491,"text":"年中所以是五月份借一年你可以直接想直接一點嘛一年就一年嘛所以是從今年五月開始起租然後租到明年五月那你們現在我看到的是齁你們在你們這裡寫的是服務行測試齁就還目前只執行了三次而已請問第四次預計要在什麼時候開始測試"},{"start":329.252,"end":345.021,"text":"我們現在正在準備潛航前的準備潛航前的準備那可是你不是扶航測試實行三次嗎他們現在是說在進行扶航的時候就會以潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試"},{"start":348.632,"end":373.712,"text":"可是你潛水潛航測試也是有一定的測試數量的啊所以我們會在進行扶航測試之後再進行潛水潛航測試但這個扶航測試的標準就會以達到潛水潛航的標準來進行扶航的測試那我請問一下那你們要去驗證這個操雷的要驗證這個操雷的這個部分那你們是要規劃在扶航測試裡面測試還是潛水潛航測試裡面測試呢潛水潛航的時候測試"},{"start":377.675,"end":381.318,"text":"對嘛 我剛問的是這個問題啊 部長你跟我講一些這個雞同鴨講的沒有意義嘛我剛剛問的問題是 很簡單的我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統所以我們向美國去租借了超雷檢測的裝備那剛才呢 參謀長告訴我說呢 這個租借的期程是今年的五月到明年的五月"},{"start":399.631,"end":416.347,"text":"但是呢你現在才在做扶航測試而這個租借的設備要測試是要到潛水潛航測試的時候才要來做所以你們有信心跟把握在明年5月我們租借完成之前你就完成潛水潛航測試關於超雷檢測的部分嗎"},{"start":423.618,"end":450.675,"text":"是的 因為我對你們現在很不信任因為你們每次都跟我說是4月的時候也說海測可以成功 說是9月的時候也說是 現在也都沒有所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是到底到時候能不能夠做到因為我們看到的是目前扶航測試呢也不過就是進行到超過一半左右然後呢 就已經進場休息一直要到比較後面的時候你們才要重新啟動"},{"start":451.736,"end":466.007,"text":"那後面還有潛水測試 深水測試那如果你在 我問一個問題喔如果在明年五月的時候你們還沒有完成這個操雷的驗測的話那這一套像美方租界的系統該如何處置"},{"start":467.304,"end":469.506,"text":"是直接可以往後再延後還是必須要跟美方這裡再"},{"start":483.621,"end":500.95,"text":"在做協調所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來沒有這段過程是嗎所以有可能有這段過程嘛對吧所以有可能有這段過程的話假設你們在五月之前沒有把這個超雷測驗完成檢測的話那"},{"start":505.252,"end":527.089,"text":"就有可能我們還要把這套設備白白租借了一年請問租借這個花多少錢是可以說的嗎如果是機密就別說好不好應該是我們現在是有信心在你們每次都有信心所以我要問假設說沒有辦法完成的情況嘛有信心的話那當然就沒事但是我要問的是如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事嗎"},{"start":527.99,"end":532.012,"text":"那這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎你時間上的網路但是我們現在租了一整年對不對"},{"start":540.714,"end":555.517,"text":"我們租了一整年但如果今天你在明年五月之前你沒有完成這個操雷的檢驗的話那就可能要就像我們剛剛講的要還到美國去再把它租回來這一來一往的時間不是又會再拖到我們的潛水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎為什麼不會因為我們都會平行做協調你們每次都說不會然後呢我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分"},{"start":566.84,"end":578.768,"text":"你們就連在這個電力管理上面呢都不斷的在往後拖延嗎我問一下這個我們這次扶航測試測了三次出去的時候有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎"},{"start":581.465,"end":599.124,"text":"我們這次出去的時候還沒有用到自動充電沒有用到自動充電設備所以我們是用什麼 柴油 電他整個就是他的主機產生的電力之後到他的推進系統那我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到重點就是要驗測海軍軍艦在設計的時候他的動力系統能夠"},{"start":602.087,"end":626.223,"text":"是嘛 但我現在在問你的是關於有自動充電的部分我們再測試這三次裡面有沒有後續接下來的幾次有沒有要做其實你們早就應該要自動充電 我問你一下喔前三次沒有 對不起喔前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼是因為還沒有完成 還有問題還是你們覺得不需要"},{"start":629.572,"end":651.933,"text":"整個測試的部分要能夠盡早確認動力系統它是完整的然後我們要找發現問題解決問題那這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性啊這兩件事有衝突嗎如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試那我們出海的時間會更延後我們就必須要把問題找到成解決"},{"start":652.954,"end":676.335,"text":"問題在哪裡嘛 你說要把問題找到才能解決為什麼到第三 為什麼你前三次你都只能做這個測試然後呢 你要第四次你才能做自動充電相關的測試因為你好不容易切斷了這個岸上的系統然後呢 你能夠扶航出去那大多數的人都認為說我們在自動充電這一塊呢也已經做相關測試 結果做了三次都沒有你現在告訴我第四次才要做"},{"start":677.161,"end":692.362,"text":"跟委員報告就我的了解了那個是在潛水潛航的這個階段自動充電的這個功能才需要具備所以我們這一次在湖航的階段我們也讓他以這個潛水潛航的標準所以完成了自動充電才會再做湖航所以"},{"start":693.743,"end":715.947,"text":"相關的 你的圖表是這樣寫嘛但是你在這個潛航的你在第二頁的報告裡面的這個第二頁裡面就寫了這個主機電力管理系統的部分那其實你看你後面的第二第三頁的第二點主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合所以這是為什麼你們後續的騎乘調整的時間比較慢的原因嘛"},{"start":721.408,"end":744.081,"text":"那你怎麼會講說這是要到後面呢沒有就是我們之前的服務行之前的服務行的標準不需要達到自動充電但是我們現在後續的服務行跟潛水潛航都要達到自動充電這個意思就是如此那所以啊那你那你那你為什麼你要分成就是說如果你在潛水潛航在測試就好的話那你為什麼先前要把它拿到服務行來勒"},{"start":745.083,"end":755.042,"text":"我們現在湖航的測試打算以潛水潛航的標準來進行在下一階段的湖航測試是 但是你的次數沒有改變啊你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊"},{"start":756.386,"end":781.93,"text":"對啊他點頭你隔壁的點頭你看我沒有意思參謀長是點頭的因為我們抱怨現在就是我們扶航五次嘛前面做了三次所以後面要再做兩次對兩次的扶航不然剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的扶航我們就用標準潛航的標準來做就是說你潛航標準所以最後我問你個問題就是因為你們現在講的齁跟這張表是有出入"},{"start":782.451,"end":792.273,"text":"所以你在扶航測試的接下來兩次在你跟你這個潛水潛航的這次裡面有哪一些是要提到扶航的時候來做的你剛剛講充電你要往前移嗎"},{"start":793.71,"end":818.85,"text":"就是說自動充電本來在潛水潛航我知道 我聽得懂那現在我們把扶航也要具備自動充電我聽得懂嘛所以我的意思是說你在潛水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些比如像你像充電能力你就往前面扶航去提了啊你就說你在扶航的時候你就要具備這個能力啦那所以我才發現說你的第一頁的表格跟你後面第二頁跟第三頁有矛盾跟衝突嘛沒有 我們只是從原來要求我們下一次的扶航的一個條件"},{"start":821.972,"end":836.865,"text":"對啊 那既然你有這樣子的要求那為什麼你提供的報告不是這樣子呢所以請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們就是說明清楚好不好不要讓你們報告第一頁跟二三頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方"},{"start":837.205,"end":857.331,"text":"如果你們要多做當然很好我支持能夠做得越完善越好能夠推進的時間越快越好安全起見安全優先我也同意但是呢如果你們有要把扶航測試裡面潛水潛航測試裡面的一些部分在扶航的時候你就要做那很好啊寫清楚嘛讓我們知道嘛"},{"start":858.712,"end":865.862,"text":"這樣我們才有能力去監督他才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否都有按時按情況完成好嗎時間的關係我們到這裡謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時3分）謝謝主席，先請顧部長還有海軍參謀長。"],["主席：請部長和海軍參謀長。"],["徐委員巧芯：今天媒體報導提到海軍大氣海洋局林倉玉局長要求下屬浮報預算，對於這件事情，請問你們目前有瞭解跟掌握嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這件事情海軍已經在進行行政調查，我們會秉持毋枉毋縱的原則來做相關的調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：我先說明一下，媒體報導裡面提到，去年5月在準備國土安全韌性預算的會議裡面，林倉玉局長知道自己其實可以拿到很多預算，第一，他竟然涉嫌教唆其他軍人規避審計，第二，他叫大家預算多寫一點，能騙就騙，第三，他說短時間幾張紙就能騙好幾億。我們看到這則新聞的時候覺得非常非常憤怒！為什麼？我們才剛通過這麼多預算，當時只要像馬文君委員對你們各個部門提出一些預算刪減等等的提案，你們是如何哭天喊地啊！你們是如何說這些預算是你們非常需要的啊！結果原來你們裡面的局長直接叫下屬預算多寫一點、用騙的，還說只要寫幾張紙就可以騙好幾億！我先請問一下大氣海洋局在韌性特別預算裡面，總共申請了多少費用、幾項計畫？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，因為媒體並沒有先跟本部查詢，也沒有跟當事人做過查證，所以針對相關資料，我們已經正式立案進行調查，但是我們也初步發現有些資訊還需要釐清，甚至以您剛才所提的防禦韌性，其實在去年5月份的時候，整個預算規劃和其他部分在時間節點上是有點出入的……"],["徐委員巧芯：他的意思是他自己開的嘛！不是……"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。另外要跟委員報告的就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：跟你們沒關係，是他自己開的嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛問的問題是，因為你們已經講你們會立案調查了，那我要問的是，大氣海洋局最終跟你們申請的是多少經費、幾項計畫？細部的部分。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，主要是大氣局必須要有新的海域監控跟海域的……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：他們有3棟大樓要實施興建，大概需要16億到17億的預算，還有一些東南沙的……"],["徐委員巧芯：幾項計畫？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：3項設施。"],["徐委員巧芯：3項設施的計畫大概17億左右，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：17.5億這個數字跟報導內容相當一致。我必須要講，請你們提供這3項計畫的完整說明，因為我們要知道我們核過這個預算之後，它到底有沒有被正常使用？還是它其實已經變成一個弊案，或者是他真的有多、浮報預算？所以這個部分是不是可以請你把你剛剛講的3項計畫、17億的相關細節的報告提供給外交及國防委員會的委員？需要多久時間？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，因為這是上週才剛通過的預算，都還沒有開始執行……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是計畫寫了嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：計畫部分我們到時候會綜整資料送到委員辦公室。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果你們自己都沒有計畫，立案是要調查什麼呢？一定是有它的計畫、有它的預算、有它的細項，你們才有調查的可能性啊！既然你都說已經立案調查了，怎麼可能會沒有資料？既然有資料，為什麼不能給我們？今天是立法院通過的預算，如果裡面有浮編的情形、如果裡面有騙預算、騙人民納稅錢的情形，立法委員當然要知道啊！不然我們要怎麼討論接下來的預算並讓它通過？如果每個局處都這樣子的話，還審什麼預算呢？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我剛剛已經說過會把資料綜整好，送到委員辦公室。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。","接下來是海鯤號的部分，你們在潛航測試裡面要驗證戰鬥系統，請問是否有向美方租借操雷驗測的裝備？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們租借的時間是從什麼時候借到什麼時候？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們租借的效期是到明年。"],["徐委員巧芯：從什麼時候到什麼時候？你不要只講到明年。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：從今年5月份到明年年中左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：年中？所以是借一年？你可以講直接一點，一年就一年嘛！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是從今年5月起租，租到明年5月。現在我看到你們寫的是浮航測試目前只執行3次而已，請問第4次預計要在什麼時候開始測試？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們現在正在做潛航前的準備，自動充電……"],["徐委員巧芯：潛航前的準備？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是浮航測試不是只執行了3次嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：他們現在是說，在進行浮航的時候就會以淺水潛航的　標準來進行浮航的測試啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：可是淺水潛航測試也是有一定測試數量的啊！"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們會在進行浮航測試之後，再進行淺水潛航測試，但這個浮航測試的標準，就會以達到淺水潛航的標準來進行浮航的測試。"],["徐委員巧芯：我請問一下，你們要驗證操雷的這個部分，你們是要規劃在浮航測試裡面測試，還是淺水潛航測試裡面測試呢？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：淺水潛航的時候測試。"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛！我剛剛問的是這個問題啊！部長，你跟我講一些雞同鴨講的，沒有意義嘛！我剛剛問的問題是很簡單的，我們要驗證這個戰鬥系統，所以我們向美國去租借了操雷檢測的裝備，剛才參謀長告訴我這個租借的期程是今年5月到明年5月，但是你現在才在做浮航測試，而這個租借的設備要測試是要到淺水潛航測試的時候才要來做，所以你們有信心跟把握，在明年5月我們租借完成之前，你就完成淺水潛航測試，關於操雷檢測的部分嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是的？我現在對你們很不信任，因為你們每次都跟我說是。4月的時候，問海測可以成功嗎？你說是，9月的時候，也說是，但是現在也都沒有。所以我不曉得你們現在告訴我說是，到底到時候能不能夠做到？因為我們看到的是目前浮航測試也不過進行到超過一半左右，然後就已經進廠休息，一直要到比較後面的時候，你們才要重新啟動，後面還有淺水測試、深水測試。我問一個問題，如果在明年5月的時候，你們還沒有完成操雷的驗測，這一套向美方租借的系統該如何處置？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，依照合約，我們盡力來達成，如果有執行上困難，我們執行上會申請租約再延後。"],["徐委員巧芯：是直接可以往後再延後，還是必須要跟美方再……"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們會再協調，然後再……"],["徐委員巧芯：再協調？所以不會把這套系統先還到美國去再租借回來，沒有這段過程，是嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：這比較牽扯到協調細節的，原則上，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以有可能有這段過程，對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：有可能有這段過程的話，假設你們在5月之前沒有把操雷測驗完成檢測，那就有可能我們把這一套設備白白租借了一年。請問租借這個花多少錢，這是可以說的嗎？如果是機密就別說，好不好？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們現在有信心在明年5月……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們每次都有信心，所以我要問假設沒有辦法完成的情況，有信心的話，當然就沒事，但是我要問的是，如果沒有完成的話會發生什麼事？這套設備租了多少錢是可以說的嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：現在手頭上沒有資料。報告委員，因為這個只是時間上往右去爭取……"],["徐委員巧芯：你時間上往右，但是我們現在租了一整年，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：金錢上面的花費並不……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們租了一整年，但如果你在明年5月之前，你沒有完成操雷檢驗，那就可能像我們剛剛講的，要還到美國去，再把它租回來，這一來一往的時間，不是又會再拖到我們的淺水潛航測試跟深水潛航測試嗎？對吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，不會。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼不會？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：因為我們都會平行協調……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們每次都說不會。我接下來要問的是電力管理的部分，你們就連在這個電力管理上面都不斷地在往後拖延。我問一下，我們這次浮航測試，測了三次，出去的時候，有使用任何的自動充電設備嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們這次出去的時候，還沒有用到自動充電……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有用到自動充電設備，所以我們是用什麼？柴油、電？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，整個就是它的主機產生電力之後到它的推進系統，我想我們今天報告裡面有特別提到，重點就是要驗測海鯤軍艦在設計的時候，它的動力系統能夠順利……"],["徐委員巧芯：是嘛，但我現在在問你的是，關於有自動充電的部分，我們在測試這三次裡面有沒有做，後續接下來幾次有沒有要做？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：後面的部分，所以剛才部長提到我們下次的浮航，就是用潛航的標準，就要自動充電才會再出去。"],["徐委員巧芯：其實你們早就應該用自動充電。我問一下，前三次沒有使用自動充電的原因是什麼？是因為還沒有完成、還有問題，還是你們覺得不需要？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，整個測試的部分要能夠儘早確認動力系統是完整的，我們要早發現問題、解決問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，但是這跟自動充電的系統不能上線有什麼關聯性？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：當初……"],["徐委員巧芯：這兩件事有衝突嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：如果我們當初沒有先把它做測試，我們出海的時間會更延後，我們必須要把問題找到，才能解決問題，這是一個……"],["徐委員巧芯：問題在哪裡嘛？你說要把問題找到才能解決，為什麼你前三次都只能做這個測試，你要第四次才能做自動充電相關的測試，因為你好不容易切斷了岸上的系統，然後你能夠浮航出去，大多數的人都認為我們在自動充電這一塊也已經做了相關測試，結果做了三次都沒有，你現在告訴我第四次才要做。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就我的了解，是在淺水潛航的這個階段，自動充電的這個功能才需要具備，我們這一次在浮航的階段也讓它以淺水潛航的標準，所以完成了自動充電才會再做浮航。所以相關的……"],["徐委員巧芯：你的圖表是這樣寫嘛！但是在潛航的部分，你在報告第2頁裡面就寫了主機與電力管理系統的部分，其實你看你後面的第3頁第2點，主機自動充電驗證的部分涉及不同廠家共同配合，所以這是為什麼你們後續的期程調整了時間、比較慢的原因嘛，你怎麼會講這是要到後面呢？你自己剛剛講的話跟你報告第2頁還有第3頁就已經矛盾了。"],["顧部長立雄：我們之前浮航的標準不需要達到自動充電，但是我們後續的浮航跟淺水潛航都要達到自動充電，這個意思就是如此。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果你在淺水潛航再測試就好的話，你為什麼先前要把它拿到浮航來呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在浮航的測試打算以淺水潛航的標準來進行，在下一階段的浮航測試。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，但是你的次數沒有改變，你次數的多寡還是一樣的啊！對啊！他點頭，你隔壁的點頭，你看我沒有意思，參謀長是點頭的。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，現在就是我們浮航五次嘛，前面做了三次，所以後面要再做兩次的浮航……"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：兩次的浮航，部長剛才提的也就是我們特別把下面兩次的浮航就用潛航的標準來做，就是說潛航標準才會測到要用自動充電……"],["徐委員巧芯：最後我問你一個問題，因為你們現在講的跟這張表有出入。所以你在浮航測試的接下來兩次，跟這次淺水潛航裡面，有哪一些是要提到浮航的時候來做的？你剛剛講充電，你要往前移嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：不是，自動充電本來在淺水潛航要具備條件……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我聽得懂。"],["顧部長立雄：現在我們把浮航也要具備自動充電，再進行下一次浮航……"],["徐委員巧芯：我聽得懂嘛，所以我的意思是，你在淺水潛航的這個部分裡面有哪一些，比如像充電能力，你就往前面浮航去提了啊，你就說你在浮航的時候，你就要具備這個能力啦！所以我才發現你第1頁的表格跟你後面第2頁、第3頁有矛盾跟衝突。因為時間的關係……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，我們只是從嚴要求我們下一次浮航的條件，讓淺水潛航達到安全……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！既然你有這樣子的要求，那麼為什麼你提供給我們的報告不是這樣子呢？請你們再完整的提供一個報告給我們，說明清楚，好不好？不要讓你們的報告第1頁跟第2頁、第3頁裡面根本就有矛盾跟衝突的地方。如果你們要多做，當然很好，我支持！能夠做得越完善越好，能夠推進的時間越快越好，安全起見、安全優先，我也同意，但是如果你們有要把淺水潛航測試裡面的一些部分，在浮航的時候，你就要做，那很好啊，寫清楚嘛，讓我們知道嘛！這樣我們才有能力去監督它，才有辦法去監督你們在每一個節點上面是否有按時、按情況完成。好嗎？時間的關係，我們到這裡，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。好，部長現在要先離開。","接下來我們請陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},{"id":"164367","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164367","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bdfedb39039f1811d88348e19566c842c83c966d97180d5d27082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:06:41 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請做詢問謝謝主席 我請國畫會的葉主委我們再請葉主委"},{"start":20.956,"end":34.351,"text":"各位你好 各位今天的施政報告大概討論一個主題就是均衡台灣均衡台灣大概我認為有三大方向第一個就是產業要均衡第二個區域要均衡第三個所得要均衡"},{"start":35.518,"end":54.203,"text":"產業當然包括這個高科技半導體等等AI那當然傳統跟服務業很重要所以如何讓這個產業能夠盡量發展你看這個現在的股市到27000、28000那經濟成長數據也非常漂亮包括中資金融的估計 主機種族的估計"},{"start":55.223,"end":81.163,"text":"GDP大概5.4、5.5左右那但是它的三大構成GDP組成的這個項目裡面我們對這個出口的這個年增率24%投資也增加了將近10%但是消費消費實質成長只有0.不到1%所以這個部分發現就是說把這個出口跟投資都集中在AI跟半導體"},{"start":82.608,"end":103.974,"text":"在传统产业 你看股价 传统产业包括扣剑 石化等等它的股价大概是十几年来最低的 甚至还腰斩 收入也减少所以在产业的不均衡 所以你看看的数字很漂亮股市上将近三万点 国民所得超越南韩 超越日本"},{"start":104.861,"end":125.987,"text":"但是讓人民的感覺是有很嚴重的差異北 中南有差異 區域有差異世代有差異年輕人私有利益比一般人還高所以你要做到去台灣不是一個表面數字而已你要確實去考慮到這個產業是不是能夠透過這次五大世代產業也能帶動傳統產業來發展"},{"start":129.764,"end":148.121,"text":"所以第一个问题要请到这个业主委目前的经济成长的红利都集中在特殊产业AI跟半导体那这个大部分的这个从业我们这个国人工作很多都是做这个传统产业跟服务业他们对于经济成长并没有很直接的感觉反而是比以前更退步"},{"start":149.7,"end":161.172,"text":"這個部分你要怎麼樣去落實這個五大核心產業五大信貸產業然後又能夠帶動這個傳統產業的發展我想請教你的意見第一個就是說我們"},{"start":162.711,"end":189.77,"text":"我们在执行所谓的AI新时代建设的过程当中的话不只是在鼓励所谓的AI产业委员如果还知道的话我们那五个项目里面有一个叫做百工百业智慧应用那百工百业智慧应用的话其实很大一部分都是在鼓励所谓的中小企业在做AI产业我也有请教过资策会资策会扮演一些角色但目前是真的医疗跟这个餐饮业而已啊"},{"start":190.49,"end":219.213,"text":"所以你说我选区是个金属扣件金属扣件是面临到这个三四年最大的寒冬最大的挑战所以我们政府应该要提供更多的协助让他们可以渡过这个难关所以大家都跟我说哇 这个经济成长跟他们完全没有关系员工也是如此 老板也是如此所以俱全台湾不能只成为一个口号你要让人家觉得的确政府在追求俱全台湾的过程中所有产业都是同步成长"},{"start":220.47,"end":240.229,"text":"我觉得这个部分你应该有一个全盘的国家发展战略而不是针对五大信贷产业或者过去的六大核心产业而已特别是相对如果是在这一波经济成长里面并没有受惠的这些产业服务业等等传统制造业石化钢铁等等院生在道爱红片野"},{"start":241.468,"end":251.198,"text":"所以是兩個世界所以這部分我提醒您能夠針對非高科技產業能夠提出有更多的振興計畫跟均衡產業協助的這些計畫"},{"start":255.586,"end":283.278,"text":"另外這個 第二個問題是說區域要均衡因為六大區域發展計畫從北北基到桃園住民黨中當統等等我覺得這是一個目標但是你要怎麼透過這些均衡海灣透過這個區域的均衡達到這個所得的均衡或者地方發展的這個均衡這個部分我看到你們提出這個方向跟願景但是這個六大區域發展計畫"},{"start":284.724,"end":306.185,"text":"你說要徵就業提薪資繁地方這是一個目標跟口號但是能不能具體落實我不知道你就看一下那個失業率來看失業率啊高雄過去認為說這個相對經濟資源不夠但是高雄市六都失業率最低的一個六都啊"},{"start":307.834,"end":336.246,"text":"為什麼過去高雄市失業率比較高為什麼變成目前失業率最低任何政策的結果不是天上掉下來的那政策結果都是要一步一腳進去去招商去讓青年人能夠留在這個高雄所以我們不管是總理失業率高雄市是六度最低青年失業率也是六度最低但是其他的縣市也蠻高的我不好意思說其他哪些縣市但一定是"},{"start":337.324,"end":363.873,"text":"有一些状况没有被排除没有被重视嘛所以你这个失业率代表说你的所得就不均衡嘛所以我希望说国会业主委您上任之后要有个新的思维要用更高的这个视野国家战略角度怎么去落实这个均衡台湾从所得落实从这个区域发展落实跟产业发展落实这个部分我提醒您这个"},{"start":364.721,"end":377.652,"text":"這個未來還有很長路要走 這個是一個非常重要而且很核心 為關稅到台灣未來這個生存發展的一個重要的關鍵那另外一個就是關於這個"},{"start":382.029,"end":403.511,"text":"過去的六大核心戰略產業在蔡英文總統的時候跟現在的五大現代產業差別大概就是多了一個能源項目能源轉型很重要能源轉型不是一觸可及的但這個方向絕對是正確的不能被少數個案去抹殺這個政策的正面意義跟未來能源轉型的一個重要性"},{"start":404.628,"end":417.271,"text":"所以未來2030年我們要達到這個2030年要達到這個30%的再生能源這個部分是我們要努力的目標但是有很多的不可控的部分"},{"start":418.001,"end":438.983,"text":"你看這個戰爭的部分最大的這個佔比是這個風力發電風力發電要離岸封電跟這個陸域封電我們沒有辦法允許陸域封電 只能離岸封電所以站在一個國安法會角度你要跟經濟部協調 跟環境部協調 跟國防部協調為什麼我們的離岸封電沒有辦法落實"},{"start":440.465,"end":452.026,"text":"當然有國際大環境的變化包括整體川普的反對包括整個供應鏈的吃緊包括利率的升高台灣也是面臨到這種狀況"},{"start":453.868,"end":477.338,"text":"那对于这个能源转型,国化会有没有什么看法?我们这一边,就是说在经济部这一边来讲的话,它中长期的用电成长已经纳入半导体AI新兴科技的发展需求了。那经济部也对于那一个燃气机组的装置容量,也有一些提一些计划,比如说它要增加大概1200万瓦。"},{"start":477.698,"end":504.554,"text":"我觉得这个现在回答可能太detail我觉得我提这个问题出来就是希望说你做一个整合者协调者你要跟相关部队协调为什么没有办法落实到原先的发电比我的目标跟现在差距有多少问题在哪里要怎么去排除这是您要做的工作另外这个国家基金你要投资一定也要均衡这部分我很关心对新创对南部的投资"},{"start":505.325,"end":529.246,"text":"你們過去國發基金這個投資都是集中在北部而且對新創的比例也比較少所以我認為未來你們應該立即的調整你們投資的方向不要集中在北部中南部只有個位數所以這個部分我覺得你站在均衡台灣的角度這個是背道而馳"},{"start":530.911,"end":556.315,"text":"所以對新創的你們福祉也不夠要不是我極力堅持你們國發基金還沒有在南部設立辦公室是我堅持這樣才有辦公室但是具體成果怎麼樣還是有限的跟我期待的目標差很多你要把過去的新創商變成綠洲不是不可行是你要不要做而已有沒有這個決心而已"},{"start":557.256,"end":570.294,"text":"你從你投資的比例來看這個比例你能看嗎這我要怎麼對南部的這些年輕的新創新創家來做一個說明跟交代呢所有都集中在北部所以我認為國際經濟執行長也在"},{"start":573.158,"end":599.18,"text":"这个部分我也跟你们提醒很多次我也跟你们建议很多次国家基金绝对要站在比较协助要不是获利的角度辅导的角度而不是你要确保获利你对一般的IPO公司的投资那当然是有一定的获利的意识但是你对新创企业投资你不要单纯站在获利的角度你要在辅导协助的角度包括你投资比例你要增加一点点"},{"start":599.929,"end":623.027,"text":"比方說更有誘因1.5比1你填足投資機構跟國際基金1.5比1那個高副主委之前我還給你提到過你們必須不要聽過然後就就就冤孝允善的我們必須去確定落實是不是可以可行然後對這個餅夠大但是你們比較小區去做分配"},{"start":624.792,"end":645.311,"text":"门槛也比较高年轻人需要就是第一统计需要政府的协助那你给他设计那么多的门槛当然你要达到初期创业你要达到这个门槛是很困难的所以把门槛稍微降低合理的降低然后呢给更多新创企业更多的协助而不是从获利的角度然后区域均衡"},{"start":646.792,"end":657.721,"text":"台南高雄跟台中新創你們投資實在是比例是過低所以你必須要去做一些調整以上建議謝謝委員的意見我們會待會去研究謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":251,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時6分）謝謝主席，我請國發會葉主委。"],["主席：我們再請葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：主委您好。主委，今天的施政報告討論的一個主題就是均衡臺灣，均衡臺灣我認為有三大方向：第一個，產業要均衡；第二個，區域要均衡；第三個，所得要均衡。產業包括高科技、半導體、AI等等，當然傳統跟服務業很重要，所以如何讓產業能夠均衡發展？你看現在的股市到2萬7,000、2萬8,000，經濟成長數據也非常漂亮，包括中經院的估計、主計總處的估計，GDP大概5.4%到5%左右。但是在三大構成GDP組成的項目裡面，我們對於出口的年增率是24%、投資也增加將近10%，但是消費實質成長不到1%。所以從這個部分發現，把出口跟投資都集中在AI跟半導體，你看傳統產業的股價，傳統產業包括扣件、石化等等，它的股價大概是十幾年來最低的、甚至還腰斬、收入也減少，造成產業的不均衡。","即使你看這個數字很漂亮，股市將近3萬點，國民所得超越南韓、超越日本，事實上，人民的感覺有很嚴重的差異，北、中、南有差異，區域有差異；世代有差異，年輕人失業率比一般人還高。所以你要做到均衡臺灣不是一個表面數字而已，你要確實去考慮到產業上是不是能夠透過這次的五大信賴產業也能帶動傳統產業發展。","第一個問題要請教葉主委，目前經濟成長的紅利都集中在特殊產業──AI跟半導體，對於大部分的從業人員，我們國人的工作很多都是做傳統產業跟服務業，他們對於經濟成長並沒有很直接的感覺，反而是比以前更退步！這個部分你要怎麼樣去落實五大信賴產業然後又能夠帶動傳統產業的發展？我想請教你的意見。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：第一個，我們在執行所謂的AI新十大建設的過程當中，不僅只是在鼓勵所謂的AI產業，委員如果知道的話，我們那5個項目裡面有一個叫做百工百業智慧應用。"],["邱委員志偉：我知道。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：百工百業智慧應用，其實很大一部分都是在鼓勵所謂的中小企業做AI轉型。"],["邱委員志偉：我也有請教過資策會，資策會扮演一些角色，但目前只是針對醫療跟餐飲業而已。像我的選區有金屬扣件，金屬扣件面臨到三、四十年來最大的寒冬、最大的挑戰！所以我們政府應該要提供更多的協助，讓他們可以度過這個難關。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["邱委員志偉：所以大家都跟我說，這個經濟成長跟他們完全沒有關係耶！員工也是如此，老闆也是如此，均衡臺灣不能只成為一個口號，你要讓人家覺得的確政府在追求均衡臺灣的過程中，所有產業都是求同步成長。我覺得這個部分，你應該有一個全盤的國家發展戰略，而不是針對五大信賴產業或者過去的六大核心產業而已，特別是相對弱勢、在這一波經濟成長裡面並沒有受惠的這些產業，如服務業、傳統製造業、石化鋼鐵等等是怨聲載道、哀鴻遍野，是兩個世界。所以這部分我提醒您，能夠針對非高科技產業提出更多的振興計畫，跟產業均衡、產業協助的這些計畫。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，第二個問題是區域要均衡，因為六大區域發展計畫從北北基到桃竹苗、中彰投等等，我覺得這是一個目標，但是你要怎麼透過這些來均衡臺灣，透過區域的均衡來達到所得的均衡或者地方發展的均衡，關於這個部分，我看到你們提出這個方向跟願景，但是這個六大區域發展計畫，你說要增就業、提薪資、繁地方，這是一個目標跟口號，但是能不能具體落實，我不知道。看一下失業率，過去認為高雄的經濟資源相對不夠，但是高雄是六都中失業率最低的，為什麼高雄過去的失業率從比較高變成目前失業率最低的？任何政策的結果都不是從天上掉下來的，政策結果都是要一步一腳印的去招商，讓青年人能夠留在高雄。","所以不管是總體失業率，高雄市是六都最低，青年失業率也是六都最低，但是其他的縣市也滿高的啊！，我不好意思說是其他哪些縣市，但一定是有些狀況沒有被排除、沒有被重視嘛？這個失業率代表它的所得不均衡嘛？我希望國發會葉主委您上任之後，要有個新的思維，要用更高的視野，從國家戰略角度，看怎麼去落實均衡臺灣，從所得落實、從區域發展落實跟產業發展落實，這個部分我提醒您，未來還有很長的路要走。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["邱委員志偉：這是一個非常重要而且很核心，關係到臺灣未來生存發展的一個重要關鍵。","另外一個是關於過去在蔡英文總統時候的六大核心戰略產業跟現在的五大信賴產業，其差別大概就是多了一個能源項目，能源轉型很重要，能源轉型不是一蹴可幾的，但這個方向絕對是正確的，不能被少數個案抹殺政策的正面意義跟未來能源轉型的重要性。","所以未來2030年我們要達到30%的再生能源，這個部分是我們要努力的目標，但是有很多不可控的部分，你看，再生能源部分最大的占比是風力發電，風力發電有離岸風電、陸域風電，我們沒有辦法允許陸域風電，只能離岸風電，所以站在國發會的角度，你要跟經濟部協調、跟環境部協調、跟國防部協調，為什麼我們的離岸風電沒有辦法落實，當然有國際大環境的變化，包括川普的反對、整個供應鏈的吃緊、利率的升高，臺灣也是面臨到這種狀況，對於能源轉型，國發會有沒有什麼看法？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在經濟部這一邊來講的話，中長期的用電成長已經納入半導體AI新興科技的發展需求，經濟部對於燃氣機組的裝置容量也有提一些計畫，譬如說它要增加大概1,222萬瓩……"],["邱委員志偉：主委，我覺得現在回答這個可能太detail，我提這個問題出來就是希望你做一個整合者、協調者，你要去跟相關部會協調為什麼沒有辦法落實，我原先發電比的目標跟現在的差距有多少、它的問題在哪裡、要怎麼去排除，這是您要做的工作。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，這個國發基金你除了要投資，也一定要均衡，這部分我很關心對新創、對南部的投資，過去國發基金的投資都是集中在北部，而且對新創的比例也比較少。所以我認為未來你們應該要立即調整投資的方向，不要集中在北部，中南部只有個位數，我覺得站在均衡臺灣的角度，這個是背道而馳的。你們對新創的扶植也不夠，要不是我極力堅持，你們國發基金還沒有在南部設立辦公室，是在我堅持之下，你們才有辦公室，但是具體成果還是有限，跟我期待的目標差很多，你要把過去的新創沙漠變成綠洲不是不可行，是你要不要做而已，有沒有這個決心而已，你從投資的比例來看，這個比例能看嗎？我要怎麼對南部這些年輕的新創家來說明跟交代呢？所有都集中在北部，國發基金執行長也在，這個部分我也跟你們提醒很多次，我也跟你們建議很多次，國發基金絕對要站在比較協助而不是獲利的角度，要在輔導的角度，不是要確保獲利，你對一般IPO公司的投資，那當然是有一定要獲利的意思，但是你對新創企業的投資，你不要單純站在獲利的角度，要站在輔導協助的角度，包括你投資的比例要增加一點點，比方說更有誘因，1.5比1，你的天使投資機構跟國發基金1.5比1。高副主委，我之前還跟你提到過，你們不要聽過然後就煙消雲散，必須去落實，看是不是可以可行，這個餅夠大，但是你們比較少去做分配，門檻比較高，年輕人需要的就是第一桶金，需要政府的協助嘛？那你給他設立那麼多的門檻，當然他初期創業要達到這種門檻是很困難的，所以把門檻稍微合理的降低，給更多新創企業更多的協助，而不是從獲利的角度，然後要區域均衡，你們在臺南、高雄跟臺中對於新創的投資比例實在是過低，所以你必須要去做一些調整，以上建議，謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，委員的意見，我們會帶回去研究，謝謝。"],["主席（鄭天財委員代）：謝謝。我們接下來請楊瓊瓔召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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那有請教育部次長 謝謝好 有請朱次長 謝謝好 次長我想我們今天一樣來討論這個公立學校教職員退休之前扶持條例的部分來 我們來看一下來 第一張喔"},{"start":26.058,"end":46.849,"text":"前總統馬英九他在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候他自己說了就算再困難年金改革也一定要做要為彼此的未來而改革為台灣而改革為下一代的安全而改革我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話尤其是很多國民黨委員我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話甚至呢當時馬前總統還說"},{"start":50.325,"end":63.942,"text":"未來會出現繳得少 退得早 領得多這是他當時所說的話同時會因為這樣產生三大問題一 經費不足二 行業不平三 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淨領的比做事還要多年金改革勢在必行"},{"start":204.824,"end":222.069,"text":"好市長你以後也會領相關年金對嗎你有沒有可能如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面等到你退休不做事的那一天你會跟這一位老師一樣不做事領的比做事還要多有沒有可能如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本"},{"start":224.216,"end":241.342,"text":"我想當時會透107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題其實委員剛剛都點出來第一個就是我們月退的期資年齡太低然後我們的退休的替代率所得替代率過高然後導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的所以"},{"start":243.303,"end":264.455,"text":"我很感謝以現職人員來講我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革世代的互助讓我們整個退伍基金可以永續我想這是我們的目標世代互助你講到一個很關鍵的重點我們來看一下如果按照現在的算法目前你們預估如果按照他們的35條我們來看一下有委員提出說要停止逐年"},{"start":264.995,"end":282.935,"text":"下條所得替代率的這個條文這個是他們現在提出來的35條我想問一下教育部目前預估退服基金什麼時候會用完如果還沒有修法的話還沒有修法的時候如果根據第九次的精算的話因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來"},{"start":283.656,"end":294.93,"text":"整個歸零的時間會是在131年那如果目前不管是從113或114停止調降的話整個用盡的時間會在提前3到4年"},{"start":295.373,"end":314.789,"text":"提前三到四年所以有可能是127或128或129129就有可能用完那提早這四年可是呢他們我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想但是我猜想他們一定會想說那就政府來解決就好了政府來解決因為他們可能沒有想到或者是他們沒有意識到或是他們不敢去想像"},{"start":315.209,"end":337.1,"text":"自己還有可能重返執政所以我必須要公開的說他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文那我接下來想要繼續請問教育部目前退休教職員平均每個月10領退休所得你們有沒有一個均數的計算是根據我們目前的計算我們退休的教職員平均目前平均是5.8萬元5.8萬那"},{"start":340.422,"end":360.947,"text":"跟國人的平均月收入而且是現值有在工作的喔如果以主計總數 經常性的月薪之所的大概是4.65萬好 4.6萬 其實這個差的很清楚5.8 4.6 我再說一次5.8跟4.6我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想"},{"start":361.967,"end":389.895,"text":"創造出來這個世代不正義世代不公平的部分我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員心裡面到底在想什麼再來要討論67條一樣他們提出來有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題我相信你們應該已經研究過了目前呢是把正負5%修改成正3%也就是負的他不去管他只管正的一直加一直加一直加無止境的一直加加上去只會漲不會跌啦"},{"start":393.357,"end":415.538,"text":"根委員報告其實在107年年改之後其實針對於月退的一個調整已經有兩次的調整總計已經是有6%了那如果要再做物價指數的調整其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個橫平性現職有沒有條跟退休人員以及他可能所"},{"start":416.559,"end":430.074,"text":"我們要保障一個市主的經濟生活的安全這一塊是不是合理甚至我想要提出另外一個問題他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半可是如果物價指數降低卻不用跟著降降真的有符合公平公義嗎"},{"start":432.056,"end":458.953,"text":"目前六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定就是如果只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五或是說即便沒有達到每四年我們至少都會有一次這個是你現在在做的版本但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣所以我剛才會問你這個非常非常的不公平所以我想我時間到了我尊重主席我想最後我要沉重的呼籲我希望政策可以永續我們希望可以兼顧世代正義我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路"},{"start":459.814,"end":466.132,"text":"我要拜託所有在野黨委員審慎的思考你們這一次提出來的修法我也要拜託主席以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時59分）有請教育部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請朱次長，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們今天一樣來討論公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例。我們來看一下，前總統馬英九在年金制度改革第一階段方案的時候自己說了，就算再困難，年金改革也一定要做，要為彼此的未來而改革，為臺灣而改革，為下一代的安全而改革。我怕有人已經忘記馬總統說的話，尤其是很多國民黨委員，我也不知道為什麼會忘記他們自己的總統說過的話。甚至當時馬前總統還說，未來會出現繳得少、退得早、領得多，這是他當時所說的話，同時會因為這樣產生三大問題：一、經費不足；二、行業不平；三、世代不均。這是馬前總統說過的話。啟動年金改革，蔡英文前總統也說「現在不做，以後會後悔」，不過年金制度的改革已經急迫到「現在不做，馬上就會後悔」。馬前總統只敢講不敢做，蔡英文總統講了也做了。我們來看一下，有人很喜歡在講相關事情的時候就直指賴清德總統，或是講小英總統說過什麼、什麼。這一位是現在的台灣民眾黨黨主席，也是2015年時代力量的黨主席，他當時上了一個電視節目，而且他就說了這樣的話，他說：不合理的年金制度已經不是下一代的問題，而是這一代馬上要面對的災難，我們再也沒有拖延的時間，唯有誠實地面對問題，務實地提出解決方法，才有可能避免臺灣希臘化的惡夢。制度的改革是為了每一個人的未來，我們都在同一條船上，必須共同努力建立公平健康的年金制度。我很少同意他說過的話，但這一段我同意。為了避免說我造謠，我要提醒一下，當時他發言的時候沒有AI，也沒有深偽影片，我們來看一下他當時在節目上怎麼說。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員培瑜：好。次長，你以後也會領相關年金對嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有可能，如果在國民黨委員的修法版本裡面，等到你退休、不做事的那一天，你會跟這一位老師一樣，不做事領的比做事還要多，有沒有可能？如果按照國民黨委員現在的修法版本。"],["朱次長俊彰：我想當時107年推動年金改革主要就是有三個問題，其實委員剛剛都點出來，第一個就是我們月退的起支年齡太低，退休的所得替代率過高，導致整個年金的準備率是有問題的。所以以現職人員來講，我們很感謝這一次透過年金改革，世代的互助，讓我們整個退撫基金可以永續，我想這是我們的目標。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。世代互助，你講到一個很關鍵重點，我們來看一下，如果按照現在的算法，目前你們預估，如果按照他們的第三十五條，有委員提出要停止逐年下調所得替代率的條文，這個是他們現在提出來的，在第三十五條。我想問一下教育部，目前預估退撫基金什麼時候會用完，如果還沒有修法的話？"],["朱次長俊彰：如果根據第9次精算的話，因為112年有個人儲蓄戶新制進來，整個歸零的時間會是在131年，目前不管是從113年或114年停止調降的話，整個用罄的時間會再提前3年到4年。"],["陳委員培瑜：提前3年到4年，所以有可能是127年或128年？"],["朱次長俊彰：128年或129年。"],["陳委員培瑜：129年就有可能用完？"],["朱次長俊彰：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：提早4年，我不知道這些提案委員心裡面怎麼想，但是我猜想，他們一定會想那就政府來解決就好了，因為他們可能沒有想到，或者沒有意識到，或是不敢去想像自己還有可能重返執政，所以我必須要公開地說，他們才會提出這麼不負責任的條文。我接下來想要繼續請問教育部，目前退休教職員平均每個月實領退休所得，你們有沒有一個平均數的計算？"],["朱次長俊彰：根據我們目前的計算，退休的教職員平均……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，平均。"],["朱次長俊彰：目前平均是5.8萬元。"],["陳委員培瑜：那跟國人的平均月收入比？而且是現職有在工作的喔！"],["朱次長俊彰：如果以主計總處經常性的月薪資所得，大概是4.65萬。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，4.6萬，其實這個差很清楚，5.8萬和4.6萬，我再說一次5.8萬跟4.6萬，我不知道在場所有可能要領相關退休基金的公務人員會怎麼想，創造出來這個世代不正義、世代不公平的部分，我真的不知道未來國家財政要如何因應，而提出這麼不負責任修法的委員，心裡面到底在想什麼。","再來，要討論第六十七條，一樣，他們提出來，有關於年金隨著消費者物價指數調整的問題，我相信你們應該已經研究過了，目前是把「正、負百分之五」修改成「正百分之三」，也就是負的不去管，他只管正的一直加、一直加、一直加，無止盡地一直加上去，只會漲，不會跌啦，這樣對嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，其實在107年年改之後，針對月退已經有兩次的調整，總計已經是有6%了，如果要再做物價指數的調整，其實也要考量到跟現職人員薪資的一個衡平性，即現職有沒有調，以及我們要保障一個適足的經濟生活安全這一塊是不是合理。"],["陳委員培瑜：甚至我想要提出另外一個問題，他們說退休金增幅不得少於物價指數一半，可是如果物價指數降低，卻不用跟著降，這樣真的有符合公平、公義嗎？"],["朱次長俊彰：是。目前第六十七條是比較屬於一個持平的規定，就是只要物價指數正負累計超過百分之五，或是說即便沒有達到每四年，我們至少都會有一次檢討標準。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是你現在在做的版本，但是他們提的修法版本可不是這樣喔！所以我剛才會問你，這個非常非常的不公平。我時間到了，我尊重主席，最後我要沉重地呼籲，我希望政策可以永續，我們希望可以兼顧世代正義，我們希望年金改革不要走回頭路，我要拜託所有在野黨委員，審慎地思考你們這一次提出來的修法，我也要拜託主席，好，以上，謝謝。"],["朱次長俊彰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來我們請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝請彭部長"},{"start":12.766,"end":35.965,"text":"陳委員好我7月16號的時候在這邊諮詢過那時候獲得了幾個資訊就是第一個屏東這個飄散的福台我拿到了廠商企劃書第二就是說光電板應該要納入因回收項目這個你8月初有預告嘛對不對不過我是從去年3月份就提案到現在過了一年半終於要做了"},{"start":36.545,"end":52.904,"text":"好剛也有講到很多環評你之後要做一個總體檢光電的環評要加嚴提出一個修法的方向這個我等一下再慢慢細問你但有一個很重要的是我讓你回憶一下所以我們先看一個影片我跟你要了一個清單"},{"start":54.065,"end":75.441,"text":"你說9月初會給我但到現在已經快要11月了你還是沒有辦法拿出來我希望片片要回收這件事情我們可以看得到你實際的做法清單裡面就包括廢棄的光電板有失蹤的要告訴我們失蹤的幾片然後提早除役的都很不積極很擺爛"},{"start":76.241,"end":90.397,"text":"好 我們從頭開始讓你稍微回憶一下你現在告訴我們說是這個意思嗎 部長你好您前幾天說如果這個廠商沒有辦法把嘉義的這些光電板清完環境部就要接手了"},{"start":90.998,"end":92.078,"text":"我跟這位網友是不認識的但他覺得自己很委屈部長 您是認為他在造謠嗎"},{"start":111.667,"end":139.067,"text":"好 委員我們是依據廢清法我們會進行代位求償如果9月5號前沒有清那個要代位求償不是我們政府要出錢的那我們編在這個16E裡面呢主要是處理10年這最主要的廢棄物沒有包含光電板跟各位委員保證光電板是零好 這個廠商之前我們有跟你去考察你說很不積極 很擺爛他把光電板的浮台繳稅違反廢清法不在乎被你罰300萬你現在告訴我們說你非常的有信心可以做到代位求償是這個意思嗎他認為我們政府沒有這樣的決心但是告訴我們我們已經罰了900萬了後面就是300萬一張的罰單"},{"start":140.128,"end":152.704,"text":"每一片光電板都會有序號也就是他的身分證正號當初您說失蹤的 廢棄的 需要回收的真的到年限了 您也會告訴我八月底之前 您覺得有信心可以給這個清單嗎可能要到九月中九月中 好 我再修改"},{"start":154.82,"end":174.216,"text":"當時我們是說9月中現在快要11月了我始終一直沒有看到這個清單所以全國人民不知道因為一個風災到底有多少光點板會提早除役到底有多少找不回來到底有哪些是正正式式的被回收回來的按照規定的你現在可以給一個答案因為我已經問三次了"},{"start":174.716,"end":203.531,"text":"報告委員關於那個因為我們剛剛有一個數字12.1萬片齁那其實有多少片是進到回收廠裡的那有1.2萬片是還在堆製然後他準備要送到送到這個回收去做處理那這個部分呢因為每一個光電板都有序號其實這個序號的處理是經濟部能源署在負責當中那他們說會一點時間因為那個幾萬片啦不是幾十片所以目前呢他們說還要給我一點點時間才能夠全面給我因為我也在追這個事情"},{"start":205.773,"end":215.645,"text":"所以所以是什麼時間什麼時間你 你一直沒有我 我也在等他們我也在等他們我們也希望說能夠所以人員署有要上來回答嗎你們有要上來幫忙回答嗎還是沒有"},{"start":221.163,"end":241.575,"text":"經濟部有代表經濟部有執掌代表還有能源署我們需要知道啊我們需要知道你哪一些是提早除役的然後我們又需要再添購新的光電板哪一些是真正試試回收哪一些是他到年限除役的哪一些是失蹤的大家很在意的是最後你沒有找回來的序號到底有幾片嗎"},{"start":242.515,"end":264.886,"text":"因為現在很多記者都已經拍到啦蓄洪池裡面還有海裡面還有山裡面還有啊跟委員說明我們現在太陽能這個光電的這個暗場大概在丹納斯颱風的時候受損的大概依照我的印象中應該有33個暗場佔整體的裝置量的千分之四左右"},{"start":265.606,"end":289.06,"text":"那整體的影響的這個所謂的光電板的片數大概是12.1萬片左右至於你剛剛講的是說哪一些是要廚藝的哪一些是因為我們太陽能的這個發展是近幾年來才開始陸續的發展那因為太陽能光電板它是一個非常穩定的一個物質因為它的使用壽命還有達到20年左右到目前為止的話還沒有"},{"start":289.597,"end":315.998,"text":"那是還沒有處理的還沒有處理的案子對所以他們很多其實是提早被回收了嘛對吧你的意思是這樣嗎因為需要汰換的時候提早回收沒有我說因為風災那風災的話這已經有清理了也到這個所謂的我們環境部所指定的那失蹤的呢回收的這個失蹤的呢那這個要可能要一個序號一個序號來做比對啦我剛剛講的說12.1萬片嘛"},{"start":319.589,"end":340.465,"text":"對所以你現在你們兩個都講不出什麼時候可以給清單清單的部分因為現在有幾個去處然後這個我們會跟這個環境部來合作是不是容我們這個會後再提供給委員好不好多久這個要看他們這個回收進來半年一年比例"},{"start":343.147,"end":369.496,"text":"因為他喔 國務委員這個一片一片是我有看到啦但是如果要12.1萬片齁那個數 那個量真的很大因為我們有一直要求說沒關係啊 你也可以說一年啊我不能這樣 但是我們會努力去追查啦委員我知道你希望我們可以給我會努力能夠追到這個數字因為我也很想看因為的確有些是整個碎掉了然後那個可能用論金種可能有多少的量那大概可以算得出來"},{"start":369.816,"end":389.786,"text":"對 因為大家也想關心有多少是最後找不到或是被違法碎掉的連你都有看到嗎報告委員 不會有違法碎掉的每一頁都清楚像這幾個 委員你看到這幾個我這幾天特別請我同仁確定9月6號有沒有拍照片其實9月6號我們清查的時候沒有這個照片因為那個是一個開闊的場地"},{"start":391.187,"end":409.423,"text":"所以是不是9月6號以前拍或是之後拍或是說誰都可以進去或是說他被這個下大雨之後這個被沖刷出來也有可能所以這個部分我們這禮拜會再去調查本來他在圖理後來他被沖刷也就露出來了但沒關係因為你的副署長林建三他就直接說"},{"start":410.484,"end":432.657,"text":"如果現場的狀況是像這樣子的確還可以再依照廢清法來裁罰好我們剛已經看影片了你說你罰了300萬900萬但是你要罰到他們清完為止可是很顯然的已經有陸陸續續蠻多記者在各地都有拍到請問你要不要換別招因為看起來你說你要罰到他們清完為止好像沒有什麼"},{"start":433.397,"end":452.342,"text":"我們9月6號的確是有查那我這禮拜也會請我們同仁再去看過一次是不是突然又跑出來 或是說因為這個是開過的場地 誰都可以去的嘉峪縣已經額外開罰了是不是所以又罰了嘛 對不對所以900又往上了嘛 是吧對不對 同一家廠商是不是"},{"start":453.701,"end":461.917,"text":"是同樣一家廠商對嘛但是他是那個就是說遺留在現場沒有清理的部分那嘉義縣他已經看過了也跟我們南區住宅大隊已經看過了有開花單了"},{"start":464.343,"end":486.585,"text":"好部長我只是要問你你上次跟我的答詢你是說你很有決心你要罰到他們親王為止可是很顯然的就沒有辦法包委這個是事後有一些小的因為那個委員那個面積你也去看過你的意思就是說事後有一些小的其實你還是就是會陸續開罰就對了對會去處理一定會去處理那我們也可以之後再跟你們要最後你們開罰幾件對不對"},{"start":488.346,"end":508.296,"text":"對 當然這個是地方環保局在協助在開發好 這個是剛剛陳昭芝委員提到過的那我先追問啦它這個塑膠微粒啊因為你的報告裡面有寫你把光電板打碎然後泡在水裡面你們去驗那這個水質是沒事的但是你是不是有沒有考慮每三個月 每六個月"},{"start":509.156,"end":531.062,"text":"同樣的你還要再驗因為你在意的像上次被絞碎的浮台可能也有塑膠微粒雖然報告裡面沒有很詳細你驗了哪些但我相信你有驗中金屬類你有沒有驗塑膠微粒塑膠微粒它的方法學全世界都還在確定當中那目前這個塑膠微粒的計算都是在實驗室的討論是不是請我們國環院院長來做一個對答"},{"start":535.289,"end":557.943,"text":"目前做的是對環境風險比較高的重金屬那塑膠微粒這個東西的檢測因為現在還在發展中所以目前那個是困難度比較大塑膠微粒沒有驗 知道了那部長我想問你既然會驗他有沒有打碎裡面有重金屬你有沒有考慮三個月後六個月後因為可能有些光電板的確是掉在其他找不到的地方了"},{"start":558.243,"end":576.168,"text":"那他三個月後六個月後就會試這個可能我們也可以擔心的物質會釋出來那個是一個極端值的實驗不是說那個可以拿來喝因為那個是極端我們是把他整個碾碎夾碎變成粉這樣再處理的對啊但是久了他是不是會釋出來這個是大家在意的嘛這當然"},{"start":577.188,"end":605.787,"text":"你會做嘛對不對因為這個是屬於廢棄物的研議我會請我們同仁來設計一個科學的實驗這不是說我覺得要幾個月因為藏任何的東西例如說我把我的手機放到水裡面當然都會有污染那剛剛你講到說你也會列入暗場防災救災設計的要求那這個的話你的時程大概是怎麼樣規劃這個是能源署他已經有相關的規定了剛剛這個次長也有說20MW以上"},{"start":607.988,"end":633.438,"text":"但是環評 剛在講防災跟救災這些的光電業者必須要有所謂災防計畫對啊 我說你的時程你預計什麼時候希望他們具備災防的計畫我們已經公告然後已經要處理了那現在就是開始在做這些事好 那接下來這個水庫型的光電板我也想問一下"},{"start":636.262,"end":659.133,"text":"這個應該部長你有關心到這個新聞我有去鳳山水庫看那個光點板但是因為有網友還有當地的居民告訴我說他們感覺生態鳥變少了還有岩鼠變少了好我就給你看一下之前他曾經被內政部列為重要的失地但是呢108年卻取消了重要的失地"},{"start":659.773,"end":683.062,"text":"那因為其實在失地法裡面就有規定說如果要開發的話會需要環評他取消重要失地以後這個光電板暗場就建起來了我現在想問為什麼列為失地跟取消失地裡面沒有環境部的角色你有沒有覺得很奇怪這個是內政部主責的 失地是內政部主責的我想問你的觀點嘛"},{"start":687.315,"end":716.548,"text":"因為這個很詭異的是這個報告他取消了當時重要失地的報告裡面呢他甚至有提到這個失地裡面有一級的保育類動物比如說油準跟白尾海鵰還有二級的保育類動物類似什麼什麼什麼他都有列出來喔他就是一個失地分析報告表他這個失地分析報告表講完了以後說有一級保育生物二級保育生物結果最後他就禁制取消他被列為重要失地"},{"start":717.87,"end":739.866,"text":"我想聽環境部的觀點會不會認為濕地列入或者是濕地要被取消難道環境部裡面沒有角色嗎幫委員 這個其實是有一個我們政府裡面有一個濕地的小組在審議委員會來認定是不是那我相信我們環境部也有一個角色在進行好 我知道台水 台水今天有來對不對台水"},{"start":746.621,"end":767.583,"text":"台水回答了出來為什麼當初會把他從重要濕地沒有列上去取消他的這個重要濕地嗎因為你的這個報告書裡面明明就有寫他有一級二級保育類生物你要回答嗎跟委員來說明喔台水公司啊所管理的鳳山水庫啊他是一個早期台水公司"},{"start":769.485,"end":796.027,"text":"開發的一個水庫他是主要是來供給工業用水為主的那這個水庫也依照水利法有一個明確的定義所以剛剛委員所提到的這個失地的所謂的認定的部分那內政部在做的失地的認定他會召集的各部會然後依照科學的數據跟專家的評估跟法規的要求我知道我只是簡單想問你為何取消"},{"start":796.627,"end":817.743,"text":"因為它就是水庫水庫的管理的話它在水利法的管理已經有一個很明確的標準我們全國90幾座水庫裡面不管是對於水庫的水質或是水庫蓄水範圍的使用其實它都有比相關的特別的作用法還有更嚴謹的要求包括安全 包括水質的部分"},{"start":818.342,"end":846,"text":"我知道啊 但是濕地保育法就是說如果你開發它的話你就必須要經過環評所以它中間就取消了它是濕地嘛水利法這個我都不是 你現在講的是濕地但是現在水庫的話水庫依照它的蓄水範圍比如說是環評法的認定的標準在水庫的蓄水範圍裡面相關的這些的開發它當然也有受到相關嚴謹的規範"},{"start":848.305,"end":871.398,"text":"好沒關係台水要回答嗎報告委員那剛才所次長所講的大概就是我們那個時候解除的一個原因其實台水公司是被動的然後也就是說當在整個失地的一個審查的時候我們是提供我們的意見然後尊重委員會最後的一個決議以上"},{"start":871.798,"end":892.533,"text":"沒關係我等一下再跟你索取當時你們是怎麼做這決定因為你的報告寫到的是他生態其實是蠻重要的但最後是解除失地報告委員這個資料可能要跟內政部要因為他是失地的一個主管機關最後再請環境部部長"},{"start":894.315,"end":914.484,"text":"部長這個我知道你親身都有去過就是高雄我們從1月就開始被堆置一大堆廢棄物的碼頭山還有梅農大峽谷這個梅農大峽谷根據當地的居民講應該是開挖了一兩年以上那這個廢棄物是我9月22的時候發文希望你們可以去抽樣採檢因為居民很擔心"},{"start":915.718,"end":942.491,"text":"結果過了三個禮拜收到你的回函一看真的是嚇一跳碼頭山你跟我說目前沒有地下水相關監測的資料但是你要規劃好好選擇一個合適的地點進行監測但是呢你到當邊看你說用看的沒有問題是一般廢棄物所以其實你沒有做任何採檢你是用環保局的可是當地的人他就是"},{"start":943.652,"end":962.149,"text":"從1月開始投訴 環保局的採檢是最近大家已經覺得不耐人信任了所以才會希望公正的第三方環境部可以站出來再來花旗湖是碼頭山的下游經過了那麼多次雨水的沖刷花旗湖是他們用來灌溉農地的"},{"start":962.95,"end":979.424,"text":"關於那個農作物的 這個這邊可不可以請你也介入 可以嗎好 這個我們再去瞭解一下不過委員 這個其實第一個要把行為人這個法院的判刑能夠抓到 這是最重的因為這個處理是地方環保局在處理的啦那我們也會提供必要的一個協助"},{"start":980.185,"end":999.685,"text":"我先給你看現在的圖他現在還只有清二十分之一 二十分之二左右所以那邊的人憂心忡忡希望公正的第三方站出來以及美濃大峽谷你給我的報告是說在最近呢"},{"start":1000.786,"end":1026.148,"text":"最近好幾次的檢測都沒有問題監測井的位置都是好的所以你研判沒有受到汙染你11月根據本來的時程你11月會依照本來的時程再檢測但是這是一個全國熱議並且農民已經說對他們的農作物有影響了大家希望看到環境部是right nowright now你就去做檢測"},{"start":1028.01,"end":1047.62,"text":"但是你卻說過去三年都沒問題啊所以不需要我依照原本的時程就好了覺得這樣不是很奇怪嗎我這個地下水的偵測或是因為他是屬於青稻這個營建廢棄物啦那這個我們會密切的一個追蹤不過委員因為這個其實要處理他一定要把行為人整個整個把掌整個抓起來"},{"start":1048.2,"end":1068.092,"text":"所以委員再等一下時間這個我不方便細說我們這個檢警環到哪一種程度但是要把那個解決把行為人找出來他要負責清查這才是我們要做很積極要做的事那委員提到的一個環境的檢測我們會積極再跟我們團隊來研究一下怎麼幫忙高雄市政府來做這個事情謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳警會委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":372,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時49分）謝謝主席，我也請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：7月16號的時候我在這邊質詢過，那個時候獲得了幾個資訊，第一個，屏東這個漂散的浮台，我拿到了廠商的企劃書；第二，光電板應該要納入應回收項目，這個你8月初有預告，對不對？不過我是從去年3月份就提案到現在，過了一年半，終於要做了。剛剛也有講到很多環評，你之後要做一個總體檢，光電的環評要加嚴，提出一個修法的方向，這個我等一下再慢慢細問你，但有一個很重要的是，我讓你回憶一下，所以我們先看一個影片，我跟你要了一個清單，你說9月初會給我，但到現在已經快要11月了，你還是沒有辦法拿出來，我希望「片片要回收」這件事情，我們可以看得到你實際的作法。清單裡面就包括廢棄的光電板，有失蹤的要告訴我們失蹤了幾片，然後提早除役的……我們從頭開始看，讓你稍微回憶一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：當時我們是說9月中，現在快要11月了，我始終一直沒有看到這個清單，所以全國人民不知道因為一個風災到底有多少光電板會提早除役、到底有多少找不回來、到底有哪些是正正式式被回收回來的、按照規定的，你現在可以給一個答案，因為我已經問3次了。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們剛剛有一個數字12.1萬片，其實有多少片是進到回收廠裡的，有1.2萬片是還在堆置，然後準備要送到回收去做處理，關於這個部分，因為每一個光電板都有序號，其實這個序號的處理是經濟部能源署在負責當中，他們說需要一點時間，因為那是幾萬片不是幾十片，所以目前他們說還要一點點時間才能夠全面給我，我也在追這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，所以是什麼時間？你一直沒有……"],["彭部長啓明：我也在等他們，我們也希望能夠……"],["陳委員菁徽：能源署有要上來回答嗎？你們有要上來幫忙回答嗎？還是沒有？"],["主席：經濟部有代表，經濟部有次長代表，還有能源署。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們需要知道哪一些是提早除役的，然後我們又需要再添購新的光電板、哪一些是正正式式回收、哪一些是它到年限除役了、哪一些是失蹤的，大家很在意的是最後你沒有找回來的序號到底有幾片？因為現在很多記者都已經拍到了，蓄洪池裡面還有、海裡面還有、山裡面還有啊！"],["賴署長建信：跟委員說明，現在太陽能光電案場在丹娜絲颱風的時候受損的，我的印象中應該有33個案場，占整體裝置量的千分之四左右，整體影響的所謂的光電板的片數大概是12.1萬片左右，至於你剛剛講的哪一些是要除役的、哪一些是……因為我們太陽能的發展是近幾年來才開始陸續發展，太陽能光電板是一個非常穩定的物質，它的使用壽命有達到20年左右，到目前為止，還沒有……"],["李署長君禮：還沒有。"],["賴署長建信：還沒有除役的案子。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以他們很多其實是提早被回收了，對吧？你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["賴署長建信：不是，因為需要汰換的時候提早回收。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，我是說因為風災。"],["賴署長建信：風災的話，這個已經有清理了，也到所謂的環境部所指定的合格回收的……"],["陳委員菁徽：那失蹤的呢？"],["賴署長建信：這個可能要一個序號、一個序號來做比對。"],["彭部長啓明：量太大了。"],["賴署長建信：我剛剛講的是12.1萬片。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以現在你們兩個都講不出什麼時候可以給清單？"],["賴署長建信：清單的部分，因為現在有幾個去處，這個我們會跟環境部來合作，是不是容我們會後再提供給委員，好不好？"],["陳委員菁徽：多久？"],["賴署長建信：這個要看他們回收進來……"],["陳委員菁徽：半年、一年？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個一片、一片我有看到，但是如果是12.1萬片，那個量真的很大，但我們有一直要求它什麼時候可以出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，你也可以說一年啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我不會這樣，但是我們會努力去追查，委員，我知道你希望我們可以給個時程，我會努力能夠追到這個數字，因為的確有些是整個碎掉了，然後可能論斤重看有多少的量，大概可以算得出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為大家也想關心有多少是最後找不到，或是被違法碎掉的，連你都有看到嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不會有違法碎掉的啦！每一片都清除……"],["陳委員菁徽：碎掉浮台……"],["彭部長啓明：像這幾個，委員，你看到這幾個，我這幾天有特別請我同仁確定9月6號有沒有拍照片，其實9月6號我們清查的時候沒有這個照片，因為那個是一個開闊的場地，所以是不是9月6號以前拍，或是之後拍，或是說誰都可以進去，或是說它下大雨之後被沖刷出來也有可能，所以這個部分我們這禮拜會再去調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：或者是說它本來在土裡，後來被沖刷以後又露出來了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，也有可能。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，但沒關係，因為你的副署長林健三就直接說，如果現場的狀況是這樣子，的確還可以再依照廢清法來裁罰。我們剛剛已經看影片了，你說你罰了300萬、900萬，你要罰到他們清完為止，可是很顯然的，已經有滿多記者陸陸續續在各地都有拍到，請問你要不要換別招？因為看起來你說要罰到他們清完為止，好像沒有什麼……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們9月6號的確是有查，我這禮拜也會請同仁再去看過一次，是不是突然又跑出來或是說……因為這個是個開闊的場地，誰都可以去的。嘉義縣已經額外開罰了，是不是？"],["陳委員菁徽：所以又罰了對不對？900又往上了嘛，是吧？同一家廠商是不是？"],["林副署長健三：是同樣一家廠商。"],["陳委員菁徽：對嘛！"],["林副署長健三：但是它是遺留在現場沒有清理的部分，嘉義縣也跟我們南區督察大隊去看過了，有開罰單了。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我只是要問你，你上次答詢我的是，你很有決心，要罰到他們清完為止，可是很顯然的就是沒有辦法。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是事後有一些小的，委員，因為那個面積你也去看過，它真的很大。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思就是說，事後有些小的其實你還是會陸續開罰就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：對，一定會去處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：之後我們也可以再跟你們要最後開罰的件數，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，當然，這個是地方環保局在協助開罰的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這個是剛剛陳昭姿委員提過的，我追問有關塑膠微粒部分，因為你的報告裡面有寫把光電板打碎再泡在水裡，你們去驗這個水質是沒事的，但是你有沒有考慮每三個月、每六個月，同樣的還要再驗？因為像上次被絞碎的浮台可能也有塑膠微粒，雖然報告裡面沒有很詳細寫驗了哪些，但我相信你有驗重金屬類，你有沒有驗塑膠微粒？"],["彭部長啓明：塑膠微粒的方法學全世界都還在確定當中，目前塑膠微粒的計算都是在實驗室的討論，是不是請國環院院長來做回答？"],["陳委員菁徽：好，要快速的講。"],["劉院長宗勇：跟委員報告，我們目前做的是對環境風險比較高的重金屬，那塑膠微粒的檢測因為現在還在發展中，所以目前困難度比較高。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，塑膠微粒沒有驗。"],["劉院長宗勇：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，知道了。部長，你既然會驗它打碎後裡面有沒有重金屬，你有沒有考慮因為可能有些光電板的確是掉在其他找不到的地方，那它三個月後、六個月後就會有擔心的物質釋出來。"],["彭部長啓明：這個可能我們也可以來進行。不過，委員，那個是一個極端值的實驗，不是說那個就可以拿來喝，因為那個是一個極端，我們是把它整個碾碎、絞碎變成粉來處理的。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！但是久了它是不是會釋出來，這是大家在意的嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：這當然、這當然，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：你會做嘛！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這個是屬於廢棄物的研議，我會請同仁來設計一個科學實驗，這不是說我覺得要幾個月……因為任何東西，例如說我把手機丟到水裡面，當然都會有影響。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，放久就可能會有污染。","剛剛你也講到說你會列入案場防災、救災設計的要求，這部分的時程大概是怎麼樣規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：這個能源署已經有相關的規定，剛剛次長也有說20MW以上都有環評。"],["陳委員菁徽：那是環評，我剛剛講的是防災跟救災。"],["賴次長建信：防災的部分，我們已經要求這些光電業者必須要有災防計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊！我說你的時程預計什麼時候希望他們具備災防計畫？"],["賴次長建信：我們已經公告，然後已經要處理了，現在就是開始在做這些事了。"],["陳委員菁徽：接下來，水庫型的光電板我也想問一下。部長，你也有關心到這個新聞，我有去鳳山水庫看光電板，但是因為有網友還有當地的居民告訴我，他們感覺鳥變少了，還有鼴鼠變少了，之前它曾經被內政部列為重要溼地，但是108年卻取消列為重要溼地，其實溼地法就有規定，如果要開發的話會需要環評，它取消重要溼地以後，光電板案場就建起來了，我現在想問為什麼列為溼地跟取消溼地裡面沒有環境部的角色？你有沒有覺得很奇怪？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是內政部主責的，溼地是內政部主責的。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我想問你的觀點嘛！因為很詭異的是，當時取消重要溼地的報告裡面甚至有提到這個溼地有一級保育類動物，比如說遊隼與白尾海鵰，還有二級保育類動物，類似什麼、什麼，它都有列出來，它就是一個溼地分析報告表，這個溼地分析報告表說它有一級保育生物、二級保育生物，最後卻逕自取消列為重要溼地，我想聽環境部的觀點，會不會認為列入溼地或者是溼地要被取消，難道環境部在裡面沒有角色嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實是政府裡面一個溼地審議委員會來認定，那我相信我們環境部也有一個角色在進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：台水今天有來對不對？台水回答得出來為什麼當初會把它從列為重要溼地改為取消嗎？因為你的報告書裡面明明就有寫它有一級、二級保育類生物，你要回答嗎？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，台水公司所管理的鳳山水庫，早期是由台水公司開發的水庫，主要是供給工業用水為主的，這個水庫依照水利法有一個明確的定義，所以剛剛委員所提到溼地認定的部分，內政部在做溼地認定時，會召集各部會依照科學的數據及專家的評估、法規的要求來做……"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，我只是簡單想問你為何取消？"],["賴次長建信：因為它就是水庫啊！水庫的管理，在水利法已經有一個很明確的管理標準，我們全國九十幾座水庫，不管是對於水庫水質或是水庫蓄水範圍的使用，其實都有比相關的特別作用法還更嚴謹的要求，包括安全、包括水質的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道啊！但是溼地保育法就是說如果你要開發它的話，就必須要經過環評，所以它中間就取消了它是溼地嘛！水利法這些我知道它是……"],["賴次長建信：不是，你現在講的是溼地，但是水庫是，依照其蓄水範圍，以環評法的認定標準，在水庫蓄水範圍裡面相關的開發，當然也受到嚴謹的規範。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係，台水要回答嗎？"],["陳處長文祥：報告委員，剛才次長所講的，大概就是我們那個時候解除的一個原因，其實台水公司是被動的，也就是在整個溼地的審查，我們是提供我們的意見，然後尊重委員會最後的決議，以上。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，我等一下再跟你索取當時你們是怎麼做決定的資料，因為你的報告寫到它的生態其實是蠻重要的，但最後卻是解除溼地。"],["賴次長建信：報告委員，這個資料可能要跟內政部要，因為它是溼地的主管機關。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，最後再請教環境部部長。部長，這個你親身都有去過，就是從1月開始就被堆置一大堆廢棄物的高雄馬頭山和美濃大峽谷，美濃大峽谷根據當地的居民講，應該是開挖了一、兩年以上，有關這個廢棄物，我9月22日的時候發文希望你們可以去抽樣採檢，因為居民很擔心，結果過了3個禮拜收到你的回函，一看真的是嚇一跳，你跟我說馬頭山目前沒有地下水相關監測的資料，但是你要規劃選擇一個合適的地點進行監測。當初你到當地看時，表示用看的沒有問題，是一般廢棄物你並沒有做任何採檢，而是用環保局的資料，可是當地人從1月就開始投訴，而環保局的採檢則是最近，大家已經覺得不太能信任了，所以才會希望公正的第三方環境部可以站出來。再來，花旗湖是馬頭山的下游，經過那麼多次雨水的沖刷，花旗湖是他們用來灌溉農地、灌溉農作物的，這邊可不可以請你也介入，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，這個我們再去了解一下。不過，委員，其實第一個是要能夠抓到行為人，並且法院能夠判刑，這是最重要的，因為這個處理是地方環保局在處理的，我們也會提供必要的協助。"],["陳委員菁徽：我先給你看現在的圖。"],["彭部長啓明：有，這個我看過了。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在還只有清二十分之一、二十分之二左右，所以那邊的人憂心忡忡，希望公正的第三方站出來。以及美濃大峽谷的部分，你給我的報告是說最近好幾次的檢測都沒有問題，監測井的位置都是好的，所以你研判沒有受到污染，你11月會依照本來的時程再檢測，但現在這是全國熱議，並且農民已經說對他們的農作物有影響了，大家希望看到的是環境部right now就去做檢測，但是你卻說過去三年都沒問題，所以不需要，依照原本的時程就好了，我覺得這樣不是很奇怪嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有關地下水的偵測，因為這是屬於傾倒營建廢棄物，這個我們會密切追蹤。不過，委員，因為這個部分要處理，一定要把行為人像肉粽一樣整串抓起來，所以委員再等一下時間，這個我不方便細說我們檢警環到哪種程度，但是要把那個解決、把行為人找出來，他要負責清查，這才是我們很積極要做的事。至於委員提到的環境檢測，我們會積極再跟我們團隊來研究一下怎麼幫忙高雄市政府來做這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 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謝謝主席我想要請我們國發會的葉主委好 我們再請葉主委"},{"start":19.668,"end":46.951,"text":"主委我想請教現在美國還有兩個地區的銀行發生了這樣子信貸的這個危機那我想要請問你對於美國整個銀行體系會不會有像2008年那樣子的一個整體的系統性的風險再加上目前美國他們"},{"start":48.052,"end":75.824,"text":"的股市裡面對於AI的泡沫化也提出了相關的事情因為有非常多新創的公司目前並沒有就是那些新創公司都是投資AI的相關產業但是他們的市值很高卻是沒有任何的盈餘那"},{"start":76.818,"end":96.81,"text":"市場在擔心會不會回歸到過去的.com的那樣子的一個泡沫化的危機我認為這些問題很重要的原因在於我們台灣如果未來政府要發展成為亞洲資產管理中心那"},{"start":97.25,"end":115.209,"text":"我們的政府部門對於相關的系統性的風險一定要有所掌控那我想要了解畢竟你是跨產業而且你對於國際的情勢都要了解的那你是不是能給予我們國人一個說明"},{"start":116.66,"end":135.291,"text":"第一个先跟委员报告就是说这一次的那一个AI的整个复苏跟2000年的那个.com bubble有一点点不一样就是说.com bubble它其实整个的发展过程当中并没有产生出很多的所谓的中断应用它那个产业"},{"start":136.272,"end":155.286,"text":"拓展出來的其實沒有想像那麼多通常都是只是在一些網路上面比較多的一些應用這一次的AI這個部分來講的話其實它慢慢的我們會看到就是說它除了從雲端目前的發展的情況通常都在雲端也就是說很多的資料中心在建置它的算力"},{"start":155.726,"end":180.279,"text":"那這個算力都是放在雲端那從雲端會慢慢的落實到中端所謂中端就會落實到我們的比如說筆電或者是我們的手機這樣的一個應用上面所以還有產業吧現在我們正在推動的就是我們傳產以及我們精密機械等等相關產業的AI的產線"},{"start":183.3,"end":206.728,"text":"我們怎麼樣子擴大這個產線的應用那所以我才要要問的是主委現在目前那個美國的AI的新創公司他們的他們的那個產值已經到達了一兆的市值已經到達了一兆的美元但是都沒有產生相關的盈餘啊那"},{"start":207.788,"end":233.34,"text":"這個東西對於美國他會不會有一些市場性整個有系統性的風險再加上現在地區銀行有發生了這樣子炸彈的這樣子的問題那會不會導致全部有一個系統在美國如果產生系統性的風險的時候會不會像過去2008年產生全球性的金融的這樣子危機"},{"start":234.621,"end":238.238,"text":"是我想要請教主委的是不是你能就這個回答一下"},{"start":238.789,"end":266.921,"text":"就这个部分来讲就是说很多新创产业在发展AI的很多应用那这个应用上面来讲的话它其实在财务操作上面来讲可能没有像以前的那个Dakan Bubble那么的杠杆倍数那么的高所以目前虽然说有一些有一些新创公司市值很高但是很亏损的一个情况的话可能可以经由所谓的市场上面的一些机制让这一些那你觉得现在AI的应用面广不广"},{"start":267.557,"end":295.855,"text":"我觉得现在应用面还没有大家想象那么多但是它是持续的在成长当中那它的应用面在台湾的这个推广上面你觉得目前进展如何台湾的推转面上面来讲的话AI大概分两块一个是硬体跟软体那我们台湾的话就是硬体相对比较基础建设这边做得比较好但是软体上面来讲就软体应用上面来讲相对比较缺乏一些这样子"},{"start":296.055,"end":320.964,"text":"好那我還要再問你因為你們是台積電的股東嘛對不對那就台積電我們目前我們擁有的是半導體的先進的技術那但是美國可能還對於半導體的整體的技術以及我們是製造的技術嘛美國是整個半導體的技術以及相關的設備等等的"},{"start":322.725,"end":347.477,"text":"那我們如果去到美國我們現在要把它去到我們台積電要去到美國去投資那蕭副總統所說的到底是台灣的投資就是說台灣半導體企業的投資還是我們政府的投資他說去美國這樣子的聚落啊或者是這樣子的生態系已經已經形成了是不是"},{"start":349.097,"end":374.044,"text":"基本上台積電去美國投資我們會把它當作是一個企業投資畢竟它是台灣的上市櫃公司只是說它把整個供應鏈都帶去了這個部分跟委員分享就是說這一次的方式跟以往就是說我們在全球化就是1980年代一直到2020年代這一段期間全球化有一個很大的一個差異性就是說美國的產業外移它是一整個產業鏈切一塊"},{"start":376.209,"end":390.127,"text":"然后跑到那个东亚国家这边譬如说像半导体那这样的一个切分的一个方式在Harvard Business Review2009年有一篇文章在讨论就是说这样的一个切分方式其实对"},{"start":391.243,"end":416.265,"text":"美國的製造業以及製造業的創新其實有非常大的一個傷害那我們這一次的方式跟他們其實有點不一樣我們雖然是整個產業鏈是複製過去而不是說整個切然後移到美國那邊去所以整個性質上面來講會有很大的一個差異性那在那一篇文章也非常強調就是說當你在整個供應鏈重組的過程當中的話"},{"start":417.666,"end":440.477,"text":"是保留一些製造尤其是先進而且是關鍵的製造在本土的話其實對於本土的那一個創新其實有很大的幫助但是但是但是但是其實我們知道了雖然我們要到美國去可是目前他必須大量的仰賴台灣的科技人才那"},{"start":440.917,"end":460.635,"text":"我們的科技人才如果都到美國去了其實如果就你們所說的我們台灣還留下最先進的製程的時候那我們的人才從哪裡而來那我們現在訓練了這麼多大量的人才會不會到時候就變成就在幫美國做"},{"start":461.776,"end":485.447,"text":"職工訓練嘛是不是那我們自己台灣的最先進的N-1的這一代的台積電的還有相關的其他的AI的發展的相關的人才那我們怎麼辦呢那他如果大量的延攬我們的人才到美國去難道我們的大學就成為美國人才的訓練庫是不是"},{"start":486.348,"end":495.163,"text":"跟我有報告我自己有幾個朋友是在台積電工作也有派到美國可是他們跟我講說他其實不太想出去因為美國其實"},{"start":496.721,"end":523.374,"text":"有在美國生活過的其實很難去適應美國的生活方式還是台灣會比較好所以其實台積電扮演的一個角色其實是在幫美國建構他們自己本土的人才所以我們在這邊的話我們會當作就是說替全世界在台灣培育各國所需要的一些半導體的人才所以像台積電的話他在台中他就有一個類似一個Camp"},{"start":523.914,"end":527.347,"text":"那這個Camp就是說你今天假如說外國人要派到"},{"start":528.058,"end":554.08,"text":"日本或派到德國的話他會先來台灣受兩個月到三個月的一個training那完了之後再送回去所以委員擔心的這個部分的話目前來講看起來是沒有那一個跡象但這個部分當然我們要持續的去關注因為我們也不清楚就是說因為他還是你要建廠然後建廠如果只擔用美國的人才有時候也沒那麼快那要讓才能上線那也需要"},{"start":554.901,"end":579.332,"text":"台灣的第一批的人才先過去所以我們當然擔心說你這樣子會把整個供應鏈那甚至如果所有的供應鏈都到美國去了那是會來在排擠方面會不會造成台灣的產業園區或科學園區空洞化那再來就是你都在補助像半導體相關的產業那我們現在所"},{"start":579.952,"end":608.066,"text":"我們經濟成長所依賴的有部分是因為搶單有部分是因為232裡面半導體在搶單那未來台灣的這個中小型微企業那怎麼生存你的租賄優稅還有對於我們非半導體的傳產對於水電方面土地方面有沒有任何的協助這才是我們民眾想要關心的嘛是不是"},{"start":609.647,"end":631.224,"text":"對啊 你不能夠把整個都移到那裡 人才都去那裡結果台灣的船產 台灣的半導體還有未來AI的發展 都沒有留下相關的科技人才也沒有對於相關的租稅 土地 還有水電等等給予台灣廠商 尤其是最辛苦的船產給予他們協助啊 是不是"},{"start":633.506,"end":657.888,"text":"這個傳產這部分來講的話幾天前我剛剛有碰到工部長工部長有大概分享就是說他們目前就是說那一個特別預算通過之後有框了大概461讓中小企業開始去做一些升級轉型那他跟我分享是說還蠻踴躍的也就是說中小企業在這一波關稅的衝擊之下"},{"start":658.328,"end":678.316,"text":"你不能只聽經濟部長你要有自己的看法除了他之外我當然還有收視意見你要聽委員的意見委員的意見也很重要你要聽委員的意見你怎麼會只聽工部長所以我大概跟委員分享說目前中小企業其實都還蠻積極在做AI的轉型以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":209,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（9時55分）謝謝主席，我想請國發會葉主委。"],["主席：好，我們再請葉主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委，我想請教，現在美國有兩個地區的銀行發生了信貸的危機，所以我想請問你，對於美國整個銀行體系會不會又像2008年那樣發生整體系統性的風險？再加上目前在美國的股市裡面，對於AI泡沫化也提出了相關的示警，因為有非常多的新創公司目前並沒有……那些新創公司都是投資AI的相關產業，他們的市值很高但卻沒有任何盈餘，市場在擔心會不會回歸到過去「Dot-com」那樣子泡沫化的危機。","我認為這些問題很重要的原因在於，我們臺灣如果未來政府要發展成為亞洲資產管理中心，我們的政府部門對於相關的系統性風險一定要有所掌控，所以我想要瞭解，畢竟你是跨產業的，而且你對於國際的情勢都是要瞭解的，那你是不是能給予我們國人一個說明？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：第一個，要先跟委員報告，這次AI的復甦跟2000年的「Dot-com bubble」有一點點不一樣，Dot-com bubble的整個發展過程並沒有產生很多的終端應用，它的產業拓展出來的並沒有想像中的那麼多，它通常只是在網路上面有比較多的一些應用，但就這次AI的部分來講，其實我們會看到它慢慢地……它除了從雲端……目前發展的情況通常都是在雲端，也就是說有很多的資料中心在建置它的算力，這個算力都是放置在雲端。從雲端會慢慢地落實到終端，所謂的「終端」是指會落實到我們的，譬如說筆電，或者是我們的手機這樣的應用上面，所以……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有產業吧？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，還有產業。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是要有產業？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對、對、對，會有產業。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在我們正在推動的就是傳產以及精密機械等等相關產業的AI產線。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們要怎麼擴大這個產線的應用？所以我要問主委，目前美國AI的新創公司，他們的市值已經到達1兆美元，但是都沒有產生相關的盈餘，這個東西對於美國會不會有一些市場性，整個產生系統性的風險？再加上地區銀行發生了詐貸的問題，這會不會導致全部有一個系統……美國如果產生系統性風險的時候，會不會像過去2008年產生全球性的金融危機？這是我想請教主委的，你是不是能就這個回答一下？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就這個部分來講，很多新創產業在發展AI的很多應用，在應用上就財務操作的槓桿倍數來講，可能沒有像以前「Dot-com bubble」那麼地高，所以目前雖然有一些新創公司市值很高，但處於很是虧損的情況，可能可以經由所謂市場上面的機制，讓這些公司退場。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那你覺得現在AI的應用面廣不廣？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我覺得現在的應用面還沒有大家想像的那麼多，但它是持續地在成長當中，所以我覺得……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那它的應用面在臺灣的推廣上，你覺得目前進展得如何？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：以臺灣的推展面來講，AI大概分兩塊，就是硬體跟軟體，我們臺灣的話就是硬體、基礎建設這邊做得相對比較好；但是就軟體應用上面來講相對比較缺乏一些。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我還要再問你，你們是台積電的股東，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：嗯。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就台積電來說，我們目前擁有的是半導體先進技術，我們是製造的技術，美國是整個半導體的技術以及相關設備等等的，我們如果去到美國，現在我們台積電要去美國投資，如同蕭副總統所說的，到底是臺灣的投資……就是說臺灣半導體企業的投資還是我們政府的投資？他說美國這樣子的聚落或者是這樣子的生態系已經形成了，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：基本上台積電去美國投資，我們會把它當作是一個企業投資，畢竟它是臺灣的上市櫃公司，只是說……"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是它把整個供應鏈都帶去了！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分跟委員分享，這次的方式跟以往1980年代一直到2000年代這段期間的全球化，有一個很大的差異性就是美國的產業外移，他是一整個產業鏈切一塊跑到東亞國家這邊，譬如半導體，在Harvard Business Review 2009年有一篇文章在討論，這樣的一個切分方式其實對美國的製造業以及製造業的創新有非常大的傷害。我們這一次的方式跟他們其實有點不一樣，我們雖然是整個產業鏈複製過去，而不是整個切然後移到美國那邊去，所以整個性質上來講會有一個很大的差異性。那在那一篇文章也非常強調，當在整個供應鏈重組的過程當中保留一些製造，尤其是先進而且關鍵的製造在本土的話，其實對於本土的創新有很大的幫助。目前政府大概是做……"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實我們知道，雖然我們要到美國去，可是目前他必須大量仰賴臺灣的科技人才，我們的科技人才如果都到美國去了，就如你們所說的，我們臺灣還留下最先進的製程的時候，那我們的人才從哪裡來？我們現在訓練了這麼多大量的人才，會不會到時候就變成在幫美國做職工訓練，是不是？我們臺灣自己這一代最先進「N-1」的台積電還有其他AI發展相關的人才，那我們怎麼辦呢？他如果大量延攬我們的人才到美國去，難道我們的大學就成為美國人才的訓練庫，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，我自己有幾個朋友在台積電工作、也有派到美國，可是他們跟我講的是，他其實不太想出去，因為有在美國生活過的，其實很難去適應美國的生活方式，還是臺灣會比較好。所以台積電扮演的一個角色其實是在幫美國建構他們自己本土的人才，而我們這邊會當作替全世界在臺灣培育各國所需要的半導體人才。像台積電在臺中就有類似一個camp，假如外國人要派到日本或派到德國的話，他會先來臺灣受2個月到3個月的training，完了之後再送回去。所以委員擔心的這個部分，目前來講，看起來是沒有那一個跡象，但這個部分我們當然要持續地關注，因為我們也不清楚到底會怎麼……"],["謝委員衣鳯：它要建廠，如果只單用美國的人才有時候也沒那麼快，要讓產能上線也需要臺灣的第一批人才先過去，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，所以我們現在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們當然擔心你這樣子會把整個供應鏈……甚至如果所有的供應鏈都到美國去了，未來在排擠方面會不會造成臺灣的產業園區或科學園區空洞化？","再來，你都在補助半導體相關的產業，現在我們經濟成長所依賴的有部分是因為搶單、有部分是因為「232條款」裡的半導體在搶單，未來臺灣的中小型、微企業怎麼生存？你的租稅優惠，還有對於我們非半導體的傳產、對於水電方面及土地方面有沒有任何的協助？這才是我們民眾想要關心的，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對啊，你不能夠把整個都移到那裡、人才都去那裡，結果臺灣的傳產、臺灣的半導體還有未來AI的發展都沒有留下相關的科技人才，也沒有對於相關的租稅、土地還有水電等等給予臺灣廠商協助，尤其是最辛苦的傳產，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：針對傳產這個部分來講，幾天前我剛剛有碰到龔部長，龔部長有大概分享，目前他們在特別預算通過之後有匡了大概460億讓中小企業開始去做一些升級轉型，他跟我分享還滿踴躍的，也就是說，中小企業在這一波關稅的衝擊之下……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你不能只聽經濟部長，你要有自己的看法，對不對？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：除了他之外，我當然還有蒐集一些……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你要聽委員的意見嘛！是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對！委員的意見也很重要。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你也要聽委員的意見，怎麼會只聽龔部長的呢，是不是？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：所以我大概跟委員分享，目前中小企業其實都還滿積極在做AI的轉型。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請邱志偉委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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淺見問題就是大在這裡"},{"start":187.369,"end":210.025,"text":"你潛艦的測試深水的測試都沒有辦法等一下我再告訴你們按照國際條例裡面所測試的期程你們既然是6到7個月就可以了這個報告裡面到底是蠻天過海的告訴給國人欺騙國人嗎你們回答一下這個問題好不好"},{"start":212.442,"end":237.254,"text":"委員好我是海軍參謀長那要跟委員凱切的說明的確當初我們在測試的六個月的時間安排的確是有過分的樂觀那實際要依照實際的測試狀況跟這個所以不要為了預算不要為了預算我們並沒有檔但是問題是海昆艦的原型艦"},{"start":238.864,"end":267.774,"text":"連一個建都沒有完成的時候後續的預算裡面我們要如何編對國人有什麼交代你們過去裡面媒體都在罵我們說我們是潛艦殺手結果今天我們講的就是這個問題嘛就是這個問題嘛我們不要騙了國人趕快預算編一編台船隨便亂七八糟的說話等一下台船我特別要點到你啊"},{"start":270.558,"end":297.179,"text":"我們服務航的測試因為基礎的階段容易發現和解決問題所以通常只會使用一到四個禮拜但海昆池在階段已經超過了四個多月第二潛艦潛航的測試大約需要一到三個月第三深水潛艦測試由於風險高每一次深潛在周密的準備後"},{"start":298.24,"end":314.003,"text":"事後檢查也耗時通常要兩到六個月完成所有的海事包含行政作業耗時大約半年到一年但是原形件的時間通常會在一到兩年的時間"},{"start":315.044,"end":340.171,"text":"所以我們按照過去我們的國際柴電潛艦原型艦海測時間的長短的案例第一個澳大利亞的克林斯基約三年實際上長達七年第二日本的艙龍級約一年韓國的這個張文寶高三級約兩年印度"},{"start":341.334,"end":358.059,"text":"由一起的約一年到六個月德國212A約一年所以這一系測試你們雖然要六到七個月這個是欺騙國人啊台船你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":360.995,"end":382.695,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們手艘船 台船是很努力在趕工從建造的時候就開始所以這是為什麼我們在COVID-19疫情期間人員的交流在跟國際上或是國內人員的工作上面我們就是用趕工方式才沒有受到太大影響"},{"start":383.436,"end":408.151,"text":"後來二屋戰爭發生 供應業也受到影響我們也是用趕工的方式所以現在回答您問題在這個測試的階段我們也是盡量這樣做只是說因為有一些因素譬如說剛剛報告過的在廠商外國寄寫的時程的配額上面因為現在開始是不同的裝備之間互相的整合的部分所以不是單一裝備測試好就好因此如果發生問題"},{"start":412.113,"end":429.768,"text":"要不然你們隨便亂發新聞稿幹什麼為了我們的預算趕快編出來你們好做事問題是我們是在監督預算要讓你們確實確保能夠把原型線做好"},{"start":431.049,"end":455.742,"text":"給國人個交代 後續見我們才給編預算但是今天的媒體排山倒海說我們在擋預算剛剛我也特別有講了嘛我們要確保安全 我們一定要再走下一步但是我們要對國人要有交代你們台船今年的2月發表新聞稿表示今年4月會如期的海撤"},{"start":456.742,"end":470.986,"text":"海撤 這是你們說的 預計九月份完成海撤十一月份交線 也是你們說的表示認為台船海撤的時間大概需要六個月而已你們都沒按照國際標準 剛剛我也講了"},{"start":472.887,"end":502.197,"text":"在國際級的標準裡面的裁電的這個潛艦都必須要嚴格執行而且期程你們都要規定的按照不是隨便講說你跟海軍跟我們國防部然後呢對我們的預算裡面再來編要求編結果編了之後呢你們根本原型艦都沒有辦法完成嘛"},{"start":503.92,"end":532.08,"text":"報告委我們就像剛剛講的在建造的時候跟海設的時候一樣我們會估的比一般國外的時間快一點因為我們願意趕工的關係所以這個而且您看就像您的資料所顯示每一個國家他的時間也是長短不一所以這個是為什麼當時我們看這個還在這個最後這個建造階段我們看到事情是沒有太大的問題所以按照原來估的是一個比較樂觀的時間這樣是沒有錯"},{"start":532.66,"end":554.719,"text":"那開始測試之後發現一些我想我這邊敬告包含海警我一定要敬告你們一下沒有確定的不要對外發布新聞稿不要為了預算的編列結果你發布新聞稿之後你們做不到我上個月上上個月媒體採訪我的時候我就提出這個測試的問題"},{"start":557.372,"end":578.894,"text":"測試的問題絕對沒有辦法兩個月內完成11月份交件這是很明確的 連我一般老百姓都知道還騙你們自己本身 國防部 台船 竟然還騙國人這是一個非常嚴重的問題另外就是 部長"},{"start":580.083,"end":601.189,"text":"還有我們的董事長關於我們整合在整合式的在台管理系統我們根據海星上週的新聞稿和國防部的今天的報告海昆線現階段正在進行主機與電力管理系統及整合在台管理系統的調教那一般而言整合式"},{"start":602.236,"end":621.016,"text":"在台管理系統的軟體在破崗測試中的吸破測試試驗得到結果後會做最後一次軟體更新和參數調整之後為了確保接下來的海測在穩定的配置下進行"},{"start":623.698,"end":652.11,"text":"讓海策發現的問題可以被準確歸因和附現這個時候會固定住整合是在台管理系統的軟體版本和參數為何在新聞稿今天報告都提到正在實施軟體修改及驗試而且還說增派軟體工程師皆同延長共同作業回答一下這個問題"},{"start":654.222,"end":682.248,"text":"跟委員報告IPMS這個系統它涉及的它是一個高度的自動化跟整合性的一個系統它涉及的傳上很多系統對遠端的遙控跟監視所以它從我們這個測試要從單機開始到單系統針對訊號的格式數值跟正確性都要做確認還有包含它跟保護安全的設計都有關係所以我們一項一項的做測試然後單項系統做完之後才會進到所有系統之間的連測"},{"start":683.388,"end":712.375,"text":"整合式在台管理系統是隨時被調教的嗎被調整的嗎那如果在固定已經固定了就不能再做一個調整了所以問題在哪裡來 這個報告給我所以問題就在整合式的在台管理系統有嚴重的錯失 有嚴重的這個缺失這個報告給我什麼時候什麼時候把這個嚴重的錯失裡面"},{"start":713.234,"end":715.455,"text":"要調整完成抱歉所有的IPMS系統的訊號格式的測試我們都會繼續執行那要花多少時間我們現在必須跟剛剛委員講的按照安全跟品質的考驗要花多少時間嘛這個是修改以後我們要編預算要對國人交代啊"},{"start":742.898,"end":768.253,"text":"你不要說到時候我發布新聞稿幾月份就用好了那現在我問你要花多少時間現在就很明確的就是一個在台整合式在台管理系統有嚴重的這個做這個嚴重的這個問題那你要花三個月有辦法嗎"},{"start":770.129,"end":788.779,"text":"跟委員報告那個我們整個的這個IPMS的測試已經做過一遍那後來是因為軟體還有一些需要缺改還需要一些調校好多久多久時間把這個報告給我好不好我們回去之後會把這個相關的一個報告然後把這個報告給我了解好謝謝謝謝在本席在這裡"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時50分）謝謝主席。有請國防部長、海軍參謀長、海軍參事及台船董事長。"],["主席：請部長、海軍參謀長，還有台船董事長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長好。我有比較嚴肅的一個問題，就是海軍包含台船瞞天過海，欺騙了國防部部長，部長，你感受怎麼樣？你被瞞住了，台船在過去所發出的新聞稿，包含我們海軍發出來的新聞稿，為什麼到現在你們都不敢保證我們的海鯤潛艦11月份交艦？而且你特別對媒體說挑戰性非常大、非常大，是悲哀還是樂觀？部長，你回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個就是每週海軍、台船都會來跟我報告，面臨到的一些相關狀況，他們都會跟我如實的說明，這是第一點。第二點，我們的報告中都已經說明了，就是沒有碰到技術的瓶頸，但是有關這些裝備的調校，需要給我們一些時間，所以我相信我們還是有能力來建造完成，只是說原來所設想的這些節點，特別在測試的這個階段，可能還需要更多的一點時間。"],["黃委員仁：本席認同要確保安全再走下一步，今天指出的期程的問題，就要挑出來，海軍必須要跟國人說明，台船從幾月份就開始發布新聞稿，對外說期程沒有變，而且可以如期的交艦，可是一而再再而三的延遲。上次媒體就已經問了我三個問題，第一個是浮航測試，然後是淺水潛航的測試，還有深水潛航的測試，11月份根本沒有辦法交艦，你們還對外說謊，瞞了國防部部長，部長不得不對外說具有相當大的挑戰。","參謀長還有參事，你們報告裡面所講的句句都有道理，可是潛艦問題就是大在這裡，潛艦的測試、深水的測試都沒有辦法，等一下我再告訴你們。按照國際條例測試的期程，你們竟然是6到7個月就可以了？這個報告是瞞天過海地告訴國人、欺騙國人嗎？你們回答一下這個問題，好不好？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：委員好，我是海軍參謀長。要跟委員剴切說明，當初我們在測試6個月的時間安排的確過分樂觀，要依照實際的測試狀況跟這個……"],["黃委員仁：所以不要為了預算、不要為了預算，我們並沒有擋，但是問題是海鯤艦的原型艦連一個艦都沒有完成，後續的預算我們要如何編？對國人有什麼交代？過去媒體都在罵我們，說我們是潛艦殺手！結果今天我們講的就是這個問題嘛！我們不要騙了國人，趕快預算編一編，台船隨便亂七八糟的說話，等一下台船我特別要點到你啊。","浮航的測試，因為基礎的階段容易發現和解決問題，所以通常只會使用1到4個禮拜，但海鯤號在這個階段已經超過四個多月。第二，淺水潛航的測試大約需要1到3個月。第三，深水潛航測試，由於風險高，每次深潛前，在周密的準備後，事後檢查通常也要耗時2到6個月，完成所有的海測包含行政作業，耗時大約半年到1年，但是原型艦通常會在1到2年的時間。","按照過去國際柴電潛艦原型艦海測時長的案例，澳大利亞的柯林斯級約3年，實際上長達7年；日本的蒼龍級約1年；韓國的張保皐三級約2年；印度的鮋魚級約1年6個月；德國212A約1年。看看這一些測試，你們說要6到7個月，這是欺騙國人哪！台船，你來回答一下，好不好？"],["陳董事長政宏：跟委員報告，這個首艘船台船很努力在趕工，從建造的時候就開始，所以我們在COVID-19疫情期間，人員的交流，在國際上或跟國內人員的工作上面，我們就是用趕工的方式，才沒有受到太大影響，後來俄烏戰爭發生，工業也受到影響，我們也是用趕工的方式。","現在回答您的問題，在測試階段我們也是盡量這樣做，只是有一些因素，譬如說，我剛剛報告過的，在廠商和外國技協時程的配合上，因為現在開始是不同裝備之間互相整合的部分，不是單一裝備測試好就好，如果發現問題的話……"],["黃委員仁：要不然你們隨便亂發新聞稿幹什麼？為了預算趕快編出來，你們好做事？"],["陳董事長政宏：我的意思是……"],["黃委員仁：問題是我們是在監督預算，要讓你們確實、確保能夠把原型艦做好，給國人一個交代，後續艦我們才可以編預算，但是今天媒體排山倒海說我們在擋預算。","剛剛我也有特別講了，我們要確保安全，再走下一步，但是對國人要有交代。你們台船今年2月發表新聞稿表示，今年4月會如期海測，這是你們說的；預計9月份完成海測，11月份交艦，也是你們說的，表示台船海測的時間大概需要6個月而已，你們都沒有按照國際標準。剛剛我也講了，在國際級標準的柴電潛艦海測都必須要嚴格執行，而且期程都要按照規定，不是隨便講講干預海軍、干預國防部，然後再來要求我們編預算，結果編了之後，你們原型艦根本都沒有辦法完成嘛。"],["陳董事長政宏：報告委員，就像剛剛講的，在建造的時候跟海測時都一樣，我們會估得比一般國外的時間快一點，因為我們願意趕工的關係。而且您看，就像您的資料所顯示，每一個國家的時間也是長短不一，這是為什麼當時在最後建造階段，我們看到的是沒有太大的問題，所以按照原來估的是一個比較樂觀的時間，是沒有錯。開始測試之後，發現一些問題，要把它解決……"],["黃委員仁：我一定要敬告你們，包括海軍，沒有確定的不要對外發布新聞稿，不要為了預算的編列，結果發布新聞稿之後，你們做不到。上上個月媒體採訪我的時候，我就提出這個測試的問題，測試絕對沒有辦法在2個月以內完成，11月份交艦，這是很明確的，連我一般老百姓都知道，國防部本身和台船竟然還騙國人！這是一個非常嚴重的問題喔！","另外就是關於「整合式儎台管理系統」（IPMS），根據海軍上週的新聞稿和國防部今天的報告，海鯤艦現階段正在進行主機與電力管理系統及整合式儎台管理系統的調校，一般而言，整合式儎台管理系統的軟體在泊港測試中的繫泊試驗取得結果後，會做最後一次的軟體更新及參數調整，之後為了確保接下來的海測在穩定的配置下進行，讓海測發現的問題可以被準確歸因和複現，這個時候會固定住整合式儎台管理系統的軟體版本及參數，可是為何在新聞稿和今天的報告當中都提到正在實施軟體修改及驗測，而且還說台船已增派軟體工程師，偕同原廠共同作業？請回答一下這個問題。"],["顧主任志中：跟委員報告，IPMS是一個高度自動化和整合性的系統，涉及船上很多系統對遠端的遙控和監視，所以我們這個測試要從單機開始到單系統，針對訊號的格式、數值和正確性都要做確認，還有，包含它和保護安全的設計都有關係，所以我們一項一項做測試，單項系統做完之後才會進到所有系統之間的聯測。"],["黃委員仁：所以整合式儎台管理系統是隨時被調校、調整的嗎？"],["顧主任志中：在測試過程必須不斷調校。"],["黃委員仁：如果已經固定了，就不能再做調整，所以問題在哪裡？問題就在整合式儎台管理系統有嚴重的缺失！什麼時候把這個嚴重的缺失調整完成？請給我這個報告。"],["顧主任志中：報告委員，所有IPMS訊號格式的測試我們都會繼續執行……"],["黃委員仁：要花多少時間？"],["顧主任志中：我們現在必須按照安全跟品質的考驗來完成……"],["黃委員仁：要花多少時間嘛！這攸關以後的預算，要對國人交代啊！你不要到時候又發布新聞稿，說幾月份就好了！現在我就問你：要花多少時間？現在很明確，就是整合式儎台管理系統有嚴重的問題，你要花3個月，有辦法嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，我們整個IPMS的測試已經做過一遍了，後來是因為軟體缺改還需要一些調校……"],["黃委員仁：要多久？把這個報告給我好不好？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們回去之後會把相關的報告給委員。"],["黃委員仁：把這個報告給我！"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是，瞭解。"],["黃委員仁：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。本席在這裡宣告：顧部長自10點10分到12點因公請假，本席予以准假，不過等一下讓徐巧芯委員質詢完畢。","現在請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_00006"}}},{"id":"164357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1b48b57e4ea44927d36d84cc432149c84b83c966d97180d5d214d5e53a528fd4095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:51:43 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接下來請萬委員 可以好 謝謝趙薇 我們有請部長不好意思 因為今天部長有提前請假他9點50分之後他請假 這麼重要的議題 為什麼可以請假之後10點有公務 還是說可是如果部長不在的話 這個問題 質詢就沒有代表性啦"},{"start":29.662,"end":54.734,"text":"因為之前有提 要不然就請萬委員執行完之後 讓部長再理解因為我之前已經有同意部長然後接下來就會請政治代替好 謝謝 謝謝我們召委我想部長真的不好意思 我一定得要請教您剛才您在這個備詢的這個最尾端說好 我們會來努力我想我給您一點時間 您告訴我針對這個我們年輕的這個部分 這個議題 您要怎麼努力"},{"start":56.721,"end":82.793,"text":"我想跟委員報告這一個他確實是當時的設立這一個年金的一個修改就是在一個世代的附註是啦那另外也跟委員報告我們其實看到我問你一個啦我今天看到您提出的書面報告您提出的報告上是寫說不建議修法來停砍年金這樣的一個說法這樣的報告這個立場是您本人的立場嗎"},{"start":84.47,"end":112.77,"text":"我其實跟委員報告就是說我們看到平均85%以上的這些老師是上次月退休金是5.8萬以上那以這一個再加上我們全民健保我們的這一個長照部長我只問您啦你講的這些我都有看但我就問您這是不是你個人主張的立場我們不建議修法停砍年金這是您個人主張的嗎但是部長您是整個教育的大家長"},{"start":113.65,"end":132.653,"text":"持平的論我在橫租我們台灣的各項的一個對退休這一個教師的一個退休的一個照顧我想怎麼樣去適當而能夠滿足他退休安全的一個這一個生活部長啊您的書面報告到底是不了寫的還是你有看過呀"},{"start":133.393,"end":148.43,"text":"我看過的您看過那請問一下針對今天的書面報告您本人的主張到底是不是不建議修改這個停凱年金基本上我是這樣認為因為我們有非常完善的一個您今天這麼清楚的這個全民健保跟這一哥"},{"start":148.49,"end":174.927,"text":"您今天這麼清楚的去講您個人的主張是不建議修法這個停砍這件事情我想真的是讓我們今天所有的教師會感到非常非常的痛心也非常的失望因為您是這個教育界的大家長但是理應是最理解我們教師的辛苦也理應是最會捍衛我們老師的權益的如果連部長也都反對停砍那個年輕捍衛老師的退休的一個權益的照顧我想"},{"start":176.608,"end":192.277,"text":"現有的制度再加上我們中央跟地方的許多的主席把我的時間停止一下對 麻煩部長請尊重委員的發言抱歉 發言完之後您再回答來 好 請開始謝謝趙偉我想因為您這個說得也很清楚了"},{"start":192.777,"end":221.356,"text":"如果您個人是這樣的建議那本席認為聽在所有我們基層老師的這個耳裡啊他們會非常痛心的因為呢您應該是最了解我們所有基層老師的辛苦也最了解現在在教育現場第一線的不容易喔那麼您現在喔這麼具體的反對這個停函年金喔等於是告訴全國的教師我並沒有反對以現階段來看它是一個虛張的問題您剛剛有講您反對嘛這是您的立場嘛您等於啊是告訴全國的老師你們現在這些辛苦的付出喔其實是不值得被保障的啦"},{"start":222.937,"end":239.393,"text":"照顧 我想喔 我告訴你兩個喔 本席告訴你兩個 其實你自己心裡也知道 但我不知道你有什麼為難之處喔 我告訴你兩個年金停砍必須要停的這個兩大理由 第一個我們的所得替代率啊 已經砍到比勞工還要低了喔"},{"start":239.893,"end":263.706,"text":"我們退休的教師目前的這個所得替代率從107年到現在114年已經被砍了9%如果我們以年資30年的退休老師來看我們的所得替代率已經從67.5%降到了58.5%如果再往下砍我們就要低於勞工退休平均的替代率58%這是第一個那麼第二個呢退休縫的條性啊"},{"start":264.927,"end":282.722,"text":"我們比不上現代的公務人員我們看到107年到現在現任的公務人員調薪11%退休人員我們退休人員只有6%足足差了5%所以我們看到如果我們的所得替代率比勞工還低我們調薪又比公務員也來得還不如"},{"start":283.362,"end":287.608,"text":"我就不理解您是我們教育的大家長怎麼不知道要捍衛他們的權益所以我想部長你不要在這裡背詢聽後面跟你搖耳朵然後就來轉述自己不能了解"},{"start":299.266,"end":322.313,"text":"我覺得這樣是非常不好的啦那我想您從上任到現在喔大家都覺得你對教育其實很認真但是希望這件事情呢你剛剛說我們在努力我們希望你要努力捍衛我們這個教室的權益啦那當然我覺得上有政策但你下要摸著自己良心怎麼為這些老師來捍衛他們的權益喔那當然還剩一點時間喔今天要跟你討論的就是喔"},{"start":323.581,"end":349.989,"text":"我們在公務人員身心調適假的這件事情上面我想我們在教文委員會也聽過很多次全區部目前修正公務人員請假的規則也就是教育部同步修正了教師請假的規則讓我們的公務員跟教師10月10號開始起我們都有三天的身心調適假當然這個是很好可是您知道嗎新版的規定這三天身心調適假跟原本的七天的家庭照顧假"},{"start":350.989,"end":359.173,"text":"併入喔 這一年只有7天的不扣薪試駕要併入啊 所以事實上喔這個就跟我們現在這個行政院在講什麼生一胎10萬塊就要併入我們的這個社會保險一樣的喔 我覺得有點畫大餅啦所以呢 我想喔"},{"start":367.216,"end":392.972,"text":"部長是不是能夠在身心調適價上面我覺得要能夠做一些爭取能不能夠教育部跟權序部把這三天的身心調適價我們獨立出來從不扣薪的市價把它獨立出來讓我們真正所謂的三天的身心調適價能夠落實部長您的看法呢我想我也非常感謝委員關心委員也非常清楚因為"},{"start":394.152,"end":412.36,"text":"確實在整個金空教整個整個整體的考量我們老師只要請假他必須要他的課程必須要有人代理那這個部分過去試下是他要致富的那這個跟這個聲音調適教我們是由教育部跟地方國立的教育部全額補助然後"},{"start":413.416,"end":440.702,"text":"就縣市政府的這些國民教育的部分是由教育部跟地方共同合作來你應該在提的是代理代課教師的問題嘛對不對那一個全部都是包含在一邊的我跟你講每一個政策他會衍生出來很多我們應該要一併去解決的問題但不是因為會衍生出來那些問題我們就把最主要這個權益給砍掉所以我想今天我們提出來兩個問題我們希望部長回去好好替我們教育界替基層老師來想想怎麼捍衛他的權益好不好一定的謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":442.844,"end":442.985,"text":"好 謝謝萬永遠"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時52分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：不好意思，因為今天部長有提前請假，所以他9點50分之後就會先離開。"],["萬委員美玲：他請假？這麼重要的議題為什麼可以請假？"],["主席：10點之後有公務，還是要不要再等萬美玲委員……"],["萬委員美玲：如果部長不在，質詢這個問題就沒有代表性！"],["主席：因為之前有提出，要不然就請萬委員質詢完之後，部長再離開。因為我之前已經有同意部長，接下來就會請政次代替。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝召委。部長真的不好意思，我一定得要請教您。剛才您在備詢的最尾端說：「我們會來努力」，我給您一點時間，你告訴我，針對年金這個議題，你要怎麼努力？"],["鄭部長英耀：當時年金的修改就是世代的互助。另外也跟委員報告，我們其實看到……"],["萬委員美玲：是啦！你一直都是這樣講，沒有……部長，我問你一個，我今天看到您提出的書面報告寫不建議修法停砍年金，這樣的說法、這樣的報告是您本人的立場嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們看到平均85%以上的老師事實上月退休金是5.8萬以上，再加上全民健保、長照對退休老師的扶助……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，你講的這些我都有看，但我就問您，這是不是你個人主張的立場？不建議修法停砍年金，這是您個人主張的嗎？但我想部長是整個教育的大家長……"],["鄭部長英耀：就許多政策，持平而論，衡諸臺灣對教師各項退休的照顧，怎麼樣適當而且能夠滿足他退休安全的生活……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，您的書面報告到底是幕僚寫的，還是你有看過？"],["鄭部長英耀：我看過的。"],["萬委員美玲：您看過？請問一下，針對今天的書面報告，您本人的主張到底是不是不建議修改停砍年金？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，我是這樣認為，因為我們有非常完善的全民健保跟長照……"],["萬委員美玲：您今天這麼清楚地講，您個人的主張是不建議修法停砍這件事情，真的是讓所有教師感到非常、非常的痛心，也非常失望，因為您是教育界的大家長，理應是最理解教師的辛苦，也理應是最會捍衛老師權益的。如果連部長都反對停砍年金……"],["鄭部長英耀：捍衛老師退休權益的照顧，我想現有的制度再加上中央跟地方許多其他政策的扶助……"],["萬委員美玲：主席，把我的時間停止一下。"],["主席：麻煩部長，請尊重委員的發言。"],["鄭部長英耀：抱歉！"],["主席：委員發言完之後，你再回答。請開始。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝召委。因為部長說得也很清楚了，如果您個人是這樣的建議，本席認為聽在所有基層老師的耳裡，他們會非常痛心。因為你應該最了解所有基層老師的辛苦，也最了解現在在教育現場第一線的不容易，您現在這麼具體地反對停砍年金，等於是告訴全國教師……"],["鄭部長英耀：我並沒有反對，以現階段來看，它是一個適當、合理的。"],["萬委員美玲：您剛剛有講您反對，這是你的立場。你等於是告訴全國的老師，你們現在這些辛苦的付出，其實是不值得被保障的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在怎麼樣去照顧……"],["萬委員美玲：我告訴你兩個理由，其實你自己心裡也知道，但我不知道你有什麼為難之處。我告訴你年金必須要停砍的兩大理由：第一個，老師的所得替代率已經砍到比勞工還要低了，退休教師的所得替代率從107年到現在114年已經被砍了9%，如果以年資30年的退休老師來看，所得替代率已經從67.5%降到了58.5%，如果再往下砍，就要低於勞工退休平均的替代率58%。這是第一個。第二個，退休俸的調薪比不上現任公務人員，我們看到107年到現在，現任公務人員調薪11%，退休人員只有6%，足足差了5%，如果老師的所得替代率比勞工還低，調薪又比公務員還來得不如，我就不理解，您是教育的大家長，怎麼不知道要捍衛他們的權益？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上，老師的月退比勞工還高，因為勞工……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，你不要在這裡備詢，卻聽後面跟你咬耳朵就來轉述，自己不能了解，我覺得這樣是非常不好的。您從上任到現在，大家都覺得你對教育其實很認真，但是針對這件事情，你剛剛說：「我們在努力」，我們希望你要努力捍衛教師的權益。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們對現任老師……"],["萬委員美玲：當然我覺得上有政策，但你下要摸著自己良心，怎麼為這些老師來捍衛他們的權益。","還剩一點時間，今天也要跟你討論公務人員的身心調適假，我們在教文委員會也提過很多次。銓敘部目前修正公務人員請假規則，教育部也同步修正了教師請假規則，讓公務員跟教師10月10號開始都有3天的身心調適假。當然這個很好，可是您知道嗎？依據新版的規定，這3天身心調適假跟原本7天的家庭照顧假要併入一年只有7天的不扣薪事假，所以事實上這就跟現在行政院在講的生一胎10萬塊一樣，結果要併入社會保險，我覺得有點畫大餅。部長是不是能夠在身心調適假上面做一些爭取？教育部跟銓敘部能不能夠把這3天的身心調適假從不扣薪的事假獨立出來，讓3天的身心調適假真正能夠落實？部長，您的看法呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：非常感謝委員關心，委員也非常清楚，因為確實在軍公教整體的考量，老師只要請假，他的課程必須要有人代理，過去事假是他要自付的，而身心調適假是由教育部跟地方負擔，國立的由教育部全額補助，就縣市政府國民教育的部分，是由中央教育部跟地方共同合作來負擔……"],["萬委員美玲：您剛才提的是代理代課教師的問題，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，全部都是包含在裡面。"],["萬委員美玲：我跟你講，每一個政策都會衍生出很多我們應該要一併去解決的問題，但不是因為會衍生出那些問題，我們就把最主要的權益給砍掉。今天我提出兩個問題，希望部長回去好好替教育界、替基層老師來想想怎麼捍衛他的權益，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：一定的。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝萬委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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設宅你涵蓋的內容有哪些您現在可以做一個簡略的說明嗎"},{"start":119.776,"end":138.781,"text":"據我這邊的資料來看的話目前大概有100項然後整個總經理就是大南方新矽谷這個部分包括嘉南高坪這四個地區那就是100項那大概有兩兆那基本上就是說有分你的100項是包含哪一個包含你的報告第15頁那些交通建設計畫嗎"},{"start":141.922,"end":162.61,"text":"是包含這些嗎好那我想進一步請教你15頁講的這些大部分很多都是在南方新矽谷的部分大部分講都是交通建設這些交通建設其實我們都已經講很久了這個大概應該有的已經是核定有的已經開始在蓋了這個我知道我要請教就是說你的所謂大南方新矽谷"},{"start":164.332,"end":174.08,"text":"一直談到的是新矽谷未來的智慧AI科技狼帶要往南方去移動的時候國發會有些什麼樣新的規劃有沒有"},{"start":174.605,"end":198.524,"text":"就目前為止的話我跟委員報告就是嘉義部分的話嘉義園區有分第一期跟第二期那台南的話有自己一個台南園區還有那個沙崙治療中心在嘉義園區做什麼嘉義園區第一個做那個無人機產業這個部分好 做無人機產業那現在做的怎麼樣無人機產業的推動怎麼樣正在蓋"},{"start":199.912,"end":211.593,"text":"你這是蓋一個園區對不對你現在是蓋一個園區但是我要問的是說無人機的整個產業包括研發製造你的產業鏈"},{"start":213.688,"end":232.036,"text":"包括我們的無人機的這一些應該怎麼說無人機的載具也好不管你是做載具或者是做其他的用途我們的整個製造的時程跟世界先進國家比起來我們有沒有辦法"},{"start":233.885,"end":260.64,"text":"跟得上人家的水準你現在跟我講的是蓋一個園區我覺得蓋園區那是很簡單的事情但是我們要看的不是蓋園區我們要看的是整體發展的趨勢跟方向好那你現在講的這些大南方新矽谷我不知道落腳在高雄的規劃有哪一些未來你的均衡發展你的千億投資兆元投資到底"},{"start":261.946,"end":285.832,"text":"分配是怎麼樣分配北中南的分配額度大概是怎麼樣的分配方式有沒有做這樣子的規劃或者是有沒有做這樣的統計有沒有就高雄這部分的話我們有所謂的橋頭的那個橋頭跟南子園園區橋頭跟南子園區現在已經在做了啦我知道啦我現在要講的就是說你們有沒有一些新一點的規劃你不要緊張"},{"start":288.274,"end":310.725,"text":"我知道您剛上任沒有要逼你的意思但我現在要談的就是說國發會當然你的計畫很多是延續性的那你現在所謂的區域均衡發展區域的商業產業圈包括兆元投資這件事情我們想要更進一步了解你的兆元投資對於南方大矽谷這一個"},{"start":314.388,"end":342.744,"text":"這個大象的計畫有沒有更多的支援你講的都是已經在做的東西我要問的是未來或者還在規劃中有沒有更進一步的東西好我進一步請教我想這個可能這個請幕僚單位是不是會後再補充一些資料給我那也讓主委也能夠可以跟得上這個進度您的報告裡面我現在跟您請教一件事情報告裡面有談到所謂的兆元投資國家方案"},{"start":343.684,"end":369.691,"text":"有一個叫做保險資金投入基礎建設投入基礎建設跟投入公共建設是兩個不同的事情國發會說你們要設立一個單一窗口即日起受理線上申請那你的認定範圍你馬上就把一個認定範圍你的所謂的基礎建設的範圍就已經寫好了物流中心環境污染防治設備數位建設多功能農業設施等"},{"start":372.41,"end":399.472,"text":"請教一下國發會在保險資金投入不管是基礎建設還是公共建設這件事情上面你所扮演的角色是什麼你設立一個單一窗口這個單一窗口你是負責仲介或者是負責轉件還是說你們跟金管會彼此之間扮演一個什麼樣的角色因為保險業者是在金管會所主責管理所以保險的資金要投入這樣的一個基礎建設的時候"},{"start":401.454,"end":424.15,"text":"到底是誰負責主責來 主委我們跟金管會的合作是說金管會那一邊會去配合修改法例那我們這一邊就是會負責授檢我們只是負責授檢然後轉然後轉給相關的目的事業主管機關由目的事業主管機關來認定這個是不是所謂基礎建設"},{"start":424.73,"end":445.135,"text":"那那個範圍當然委員你這邊的那一個項目可能還會更多一些啦不會就只這些但是這個是不是基礎建設要由目的事業主管對嘛他到底是不是算基礎建設還是他是你說他可以投入公共建設哪些範疇是屬於公共建設的範圍裡頭這個你們應該跟金管會"},{"start":448.636,"end":473.927,"text":"還要再更進一步的去詳談嘛那就國發會的立場上我看起來其實國發會的功能也不太大你只是轉件而已嘛你設立一個窗口讓他來轉件那為什麼他不能直接去跟金管會申請要透過你國發會然後轉一個件轉一手然後再去到金管會那金管會其實對於管理這些資金上面金管會的態度"},{"start":474.747,"end":496.658,"text":"跟行為其實是非常的保守嚴謹當然因為這些保險業者的這些資金是來自於投資人所以他會是相對在房幣上面他其實是相對非常嚴謹的所以對於這些保險資金的投入"},{"start":497.498,"end":518.686,"text":"你覺得如果說金管會只是稍微修改了一下法令但是基本態度沒有變那國發會有只是轉件而已那你覺得對於保險資金的投入能夠帶來多少利多簡單講就是說你認為多少保險業者會願意去投入這樣的公共建設"},{"start":521.156,"end":542.432,"text":"跟委员报告就是说我们为什么国发会会是唯一的一个收建的窗口因为我们希望就是一站式的服务就好像我们这一次在花莲一样就是说有一个组织的单位那它会统合所有的资源那你只要送件进来我们就可以帮你看那看完之后我们会给相关的那一个部会那由他们去认定这样子"},{"start":543.012,"end":562.444,"text":"所以基本上就是對我們來講的話我們其實功能不會說只是轉介而已我們會是統合所有的那一個部會然後會很清楚的界定就是說這個到底是哪一個部會要組織那另外一個就是說儘管會其實在這一次的那一個開放保險業進入那個攻堅的話其實他也相對去調降那一個風險係數"},{"start":565.106,"end":582.16,"text":"RBC的那个风险系数因为我时间已经到了所以我还是要提醒一下就是说我觉得站在国发会的立场应该是要促进能够更多能够让国家持续发展的各种的投资所以你们的立场不会是只是说我看过不会不会"},{"start":582.88,"end":605.236,"text":"應該是說你要協助不管是受險業者或者是協助公共的參與投資建設的參與者大家在這一方面法令上該放寬的法令上該怎麼樣協助的我覺得站在國發會的角度應該是要給予更多的協助的角色甚至透過你們去做跨部會的協調好不好"},{"start":605.796,"end":625.902,"text":"那至於我剛剛關心的大南方新矽谷的這個整體的預算配置包括投資的配置我希望高雄能夠受到比較多的青睞喔這個新的科技狼帶已經形成喔所以我想要知道你們的整個投資配置大概是怎麼樣是不是能夠也給本席一個報告我會給那個委員書面資料 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":160,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時44分）謝謝主席，我請一下主委。"],["主席：我們再請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委好。主委，這應該是您第一次到立法院來備詢。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：會不會很緊張？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，放輕鬆，我會儘量溫柔的對待你。主委，您剛剛的報告內容，其實提到了一個均衡臺灣跟兆元投資方案，所以在您的報告內容提到了，我們均衡臺灣的八大施政主軸之一就是所謂的六大區域產業生活圈，這六大區域產業生活圈，您能背得起來嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：北部的話就是首都黃金廊帶，然後接下來就是桃竹苗大矽谷，中部是智慧精密製造，南部是大南方新矽谷，然後接下來是東部的慢活城鄉，那離島是快活。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，看起來第一題的考驗已經通過，就國發會現在所主責的，現在所寫的這些報告內容裡頭，洋洋灑灑有很多項，你們講說未來要推動超過152項的工程，現在已經有100項以上在執行。我想進一步請教，您所謂的大南方新矽谷三年內的具體投資案，有哪一些是已經核定？有哪一些在規劃？你涵蓋的園區的更新、供水、供電、設宅，你涵蓋的內容有哪些？你現在可以做一個簡略的說明嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：據我這邊的資料來看的話，目前大概有100項，然後整個總金額……就是大南方新矽谷這個部分，包括嘉南、高屏這四個地區，那就是100項，大概有2兆，基本上有分……"],["邱委員議瑩：你的100項是包含哪一個？包含你報告第15頁的那些交通建設計畫嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有……"],["邱委員議瑩：是包含這些嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：有部分會包括進來。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，那我想進一步請教你，你15頁講的這些，很多都是在南方新矽谷的部分，大部分講的都是交通建設，這些交通建設其實我們都已經講很久了，這個有的已經是核定，有的已經開始在蓋了，這個我知道。我要請教的是，你所謂的大南方新矽谷，一直談到的是新矽谷，未來的智慧AI科技廊帶要往南方去移動的時候，國發會有些什麼樣新的規劃？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就目前為止的話，我跟委員報告，嘉義部分的話，嘉義園區有分第一期跟第二期；那臺南的話有自己一個臺南園區，還有沙崙資料中心……"],["邱委員議瑩：嘉義園區做什麼？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：嘉義園區，第一個做無人機產業……"],["邱委員議瑩：好，做無人機產業……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：封裝。"],["邱委員議瑩：那現在做得怎麼樣？無人機產業的推動怎麼樣？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：正在蓋。"],["邱委員議瑩：你這是蓋一個園區，對不對？你現在是蓋一個園區，但是我要問的是說，無人機的整個產業，包括研發、製造的產業鏈，包括我們無人機的這一些……應該怎麼說，就是說無人機的載具也好，不管你是做載具或者是做其他的用途，我們的整個製造時程跟世界先進國家比起來，我們有沒有辦法跟得上人家的水準？你現在跟我講的是蓋一個園區，我覺得蓋園區是很簡單的事情，但是我們要看的不是蓋園區，我們要看的是整體發展的趨勢跟方向。那你現在講的大南方新矽谷，我不知道落腳在高雄的規劃有哪一些？未來你的均衡發展，你的千億投資、兆元投資到底分配是怎麼樣分配？北中南的分配額度大概是怎麼樣的分配方式？有沒有做這樣子的規劃？或者是有沒有做這樣的統計？有沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就高雄這個部分的話，我們有所謂的橋頭跟楠梓園區，另外……"],["邱委員議瑩：橋頭跟楠梓園區現在已經在做了啦！我知道啦！我現在要講的是，你們有沒有一些新一點的規劃？你不要緊張，我知道你剛上任，沒有要逼你的意思，但我現在要要談的是，當然國發會的計畫很多是延續性的，那你現在所謂的區域均衡發展、區域的產業圈，包括兆元投資這件事情，我們想要更進一步了解你的兆元投資，對於南方大矽谷這一個大項的計畫，有沒有更多的支援？你講的都是已經在做的東西，我要問的是未來或者還在規劃中，有沒有更進一步的東西？","好，我進一步請教啦！我想請幕僚單位是不是會後再補充一些資料給我，讓主委也可以跟得上這個進度。您的報告裡面，我現在跟您請教一件事情，報告裡面有談到所謂的兆元投資國家方案，有一個叫做保險資金投入基礎建設，投入基礎建設跟投入公共建設是兩個不同的事情，國發會說你們要設立一個單一窗口，即日起受理線上申請，你馬上就把認定範圍，也就是所謂基礎建設的範圍寫好了，包括物流中心、環境污染防制設備、數位建設、多功能農業設施等。請教一下，國發會在保險資金投入，不管是基礎建設還是公共建設這件事情上面，你所扮演的角色是什麼？你設立一個單一窗口，這個單一窗口是負責仲介或者是負責轉件，還是你們跟金管會彼此之間扮演一個什麼樣的角色？因為保險業者是由金管會主責管理的嘛！所以保險的資金要投入這樣一個基礎建設的時候，到底是誰要負起主責？主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們跟金管會的合作是，金管會會一邊配合修改法令，我們這一邊是負責收件，我們只是負責收件，然後轉給那個相關的目的事業主管機關，由目的事業主管機關來認定這個是不是所謂的基礎建設。當然那個範圍可能會比委員這邊的項目還更多一些，不會就只有這些，但是這個是不是基礎建設，則要由目的事業主管機關……"],["邱委員議瑩：對嘛！它到底是不是算基礎建設，還是你說它可以投入公共建設？哪些範疇是屬於公共建設的範圍裡頭？這個你們應該跟金管會還要再更進一步地詳談吧！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：就國發會的立場上，我看起來國發會的功能其實也不太大，你只是轉件而已嘛！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：目前……"],["邱委員議瑩：你就是設立一個窗口讓它來轉件，那為什麼它不能直接去跟金管會申請而要透過國發會，然後轉一個件、轉一手然後再到金管會？金管會其實對管理這些資金，金管會的態度跟行為其實是非常保守而嚴謹的。當然因為這些保險業者的資金是來自投資人，所以它在防弊上面會相對非常嚴謹的。","對於這些保險資金的投入，你覺得如果金管會只是稍微修改了一下法令，但是基本態度沒有變，那國發會又只是轉件而已，那你覺得對於保險資金的投入能夠帶來多少利多？簡單說就是，你認為有多少保險業者會願意投入這樣的公共建設？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，國發會為什麼會是唯一的收件窗口？因為我們希望是一站式的服務，就好像我們這一次在花蓮一樣，就是有一個主責的單位，它會統合所有資源，你只要送件進來，我們就可以幫你看，看完之後我們就會給相關的部會，由他們去認定這樣子。","所以以基本上就是，對我們來講，我們的功能其實不會只是轉件而已。沒有！我們會是統合所有的部會，然後很清楚地界定這個到底是哪一個部會要主責的。另外一個就是，金管會其實在這一次開放保險業進入公建案，其實它也相對地調降了風險係數（RBC）……"],["邱委員議瑩：因為我的時間已經到了，主委，我還是要提醒一下，我覺得站在國發會的立場，應該要促進更多能讓國家持續發展的各種投資，所以你們的立場不會只是我看過……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會、不會、不會。"],["邱委員議瑩：應該是你要協助，不管是壽險業者或者是協助投資公共建設的參與者，大家在這一方面，法令上該放寬的、法令上該怎麼協助的，我覺得站在國發會的角度應該要給予更多的協助，甚至是透過你們去做跨部會的協調。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。"],["邱委員議瑩：至於我剛剛關心的，大南方新矽谷這個整體的預算配置，包括投資的配置……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：書面報告……"],["邱委員議瑩：我希望高雄能夠受到比較多的青睞。這個新的科技廊帶已經形成，所以我想知道你們整個投資配置大概是怎麼樣，是不是也能給本席一個報告？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，我會給委員書面報告。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。主委，主席台建議：因為每個委員都希望知道國發會的角色跟你們的作為，我們也希望在回答的時候能夠就你的專業，所以你不用緊張，就你的專業就對了，這點非常重要。因為我們用了這麼多的時間，重點就是國人都在看，我們希望國家的官員，尤其是在國發會的，國發會不只是一個收件單位，國發會是整個國家產業最重要的心臟跟頭腦，好不好？就從你的專業講你們所做的，要坦白地、實際地報告給委員，這個才是國人要看的。以上建議。","接下來我們請謝衣鳯委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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而且這位前主委才會希望能夠讓老師有一個所以說我們希望能夠這樣不要讓我們的校士團體跟我們的家長團體進入一個永無分爭的部分重點是他還要負責你們1300位這個所謂校士團體的這樣的諮詢的訓練所以我只是提出來有這麼多人可以用你們人才幾幾"},{"start":184.969,"end":199.397,"text":"千萬不要要用一個人來主導特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控的時候說他們沒出息的時候部長你身為一個部長你也當過老師你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益這是你責無旁貸的角色可以嗎"},{"start":200.598,"end":206.62,"text":"好接下來我們就來看一下我們這個部分裡面有第67條修正我想前面已經有非常多人提到了其實我們要修的也不會就是一個比較公平公正的一個方法沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言絕對不會有這種事情歷史不會再重演但是我們只問一個嘛你看嘛我們只要求像勞保條例國民年金他們也都同樣規定是要按照這個物價指數來做這樣的一個調整"},{"start":228.388,"end":255.925,"text":"所以說呢你看很多的時候你看我們這個屬於老師的部分裡面呢還要由行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟等等的來做所以你就跟其他兩個法是不一樣的就像是好像是我們去餐廳同樣三個人去叫了三個套餐其他兩個套餐都一樣我這個套餐我要不要上甜點我還要問一下廚師我們問的就只是這一個平等互惠的一個原則部長"},{"start":257.606,"end":282.328,"text":"對於這個公教人員為什麼沒有辦法跟勞保沒有辦法跟國民年金是一樣我們只要求是一樣的同等的對待是怎麼可以勞保農保國民年金的規定完全是只需要這樣一個處理啊為什麼差別在哪裡保定你也是未來也馬上是要屬於這個教師的這個退休的這樣子的一個範圍誰可以回答我這個問題"},{"start":285.697,"end":306.789,"text":"那次長吧我想當時的這一些退伍公立學校教職員退伍這個的一個條例的修正主要是在有一個世代互助的一個精神當然是啊我們同樣但是我覺得這是兩碼事你看看大法官的一個解釋我們往下來看下面為什麼你看隨著實質大法官解釋是退伍這個財產上的價值不會隨著時間經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務"},{"start":312.952,"end":336.793,"text":"年改前有是這樣的規定年改之後完全取消要改成幾%你完全就需要過五關斬六讓看政府的一個臉色所以說呢這不是這是一個公平對待的問題你不能告訴我隨著物價指數別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做一些修正我們退休的這個公教人員需要做很多不同的方法就每四年這一個有這個政府CPI這個政府5%"},{"start":338.695,"end":350.284,"text":"是 但是你跟其他 我剛剛說套餐其他兩個他不用 他可以就直接在法規上就這樣子一個規定啊而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的你不能因為時間改變 然後實質的減少這個部分是法官上來做這樣的部分我們只要求一個跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已所以67條的修正是如此啊"},{"start":361.693,"end":389.764,"text":"所以我們提出一個非常卑微而且很合理的一個要求跟別人是一樣的部長你身為一個教育部這麼多老師同理這麼多而且退休了這麼多教職員我不要提到他們對台灣的一個貢獻我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣這個是教育部真的要別人怎麼講你應該要據理力爭的我的時間的關係我尊重主席的時間但是部長你沒有給我謝謝委員提醒我的提醒之後呢我們會努力"},{"start":391.448,"end":398.663,"text":"好努力反正我們距離這個審法條的時間還有一些我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力好不好時間關係好謝謝柯委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時44分）謝謝主席。是不是請教育部部長？"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。我是提出第六十四條的修正動議，但是在進入主題之前，我還是有個問題想問，同樣是全教總的問題。我記得上個禮拜我們提到有關於學校的校事會議，沒錯吧？不管朝野都提到，校事會議必須要精進，但是你們有一位前主秘莊國榮教授卻在上禮拜五的時候提到，他認為全教總沒出息，還提到校事會議，而教育部完全沒有任何的說法，你「惦惦沒代誌」。我想請問，他是在吼給部長看、指桑罵槐嗎？因為你明明告訴我們，校事會議是要來做更精進的，但是當這樣一個最大的教師團體被這樣羞辱的時候，教育部卻完全沒有任何表示，所以教育部是默許嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我確實沒有看到這一則新聞。"],["柯委員志恩：這在教育圈，那你現在看到了。還有，我還是必須要提出來，這真的是幫我們很多的教育團體在發聲，這位前主秘目前的角色是什麼？在教育部是擔任什麼工作？部長，莊國榮先生是在教育部擔任什麼工作？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有啊。"],["柯委員志恩：他沒有工作嗎？有吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有，他可能有一些委員會……"],["柯委員志恩：類似諮詢委員的。"],["鄭部長英耀：但是他們在教育部裡面，他沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯，這就是一個重點啊！但是所有的權益修法，教師法法規、專審會辦法到霸凌防制準則、學生身心調適假規定，很多的會議完全是牽涉在其中，我正在思考，也有非常多不同的團體來告訴我，所以你們教育部都沒有其他的人了，就只信任他一個？如果都要參加這麼多的話，你們的法規處處長到底在幹嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，莊教授基本上是法學背景，當然，在法規委員會裡面有許多其他的法學專家、專業學者。"],["柯委員志恩：是，非常多人可以去問，卻是由他來做主導，部長，你應該澈底去把他查清楚。接著，特別是他提出來，即使證據薄弱，也要強行進入調查。部長，你去試試看，這麼多的老師，特別是高中以下的老師，如果有一些些的問題，只要有人出一張嘴，你們叫一個學校用10萬塊錢來做這樣的事情……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想莊教授從他的專業所表達的一些看法，我們尊重，但是基本上我們從校事會議來看，就是因為濫訴、沒有具名的指控太多……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有錯，而且這位前主秘……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們才會希望能夠讓老師有一個……"],["柯委員志恩：當然，所以我們才會希望能夠這樣，不要讓教師團體跟家長團體進入一個永無紛爭的情況，重點是，他還要負責你們1,300位教師團體的諮詢訓練。所以我只是提出來，有這麼多人可以用，你們人才濟濟，千萬不要只由一個人來主導，特別是當他對於教師團體提出這麼嚴重的指控，說他們沒出息的時候，部長，你身為一個部長，你也當過老師，你應該站出來維護教師團體的權益，這是你責無旁貸的角色，可以嗎？","接下來我們就來看一下，這個部分裡面有第六十七條的修正，前面已經有非常多人提到了，其實我們要修的也不過就是一個比較公平、公正的方法，沒有什麼18%回歸這種謠言，絕對不會有這種事情，歷史不會再重演。但是我們只問一個，我們只要求像勞保條例、國民年金一樣，他們也都同樣規定要按照物價指數來做調整。所以很多時候，你看屬於老師的部分，還要由行政院會同考試院，考量國家經濟等等的來做，這就跟其他兩個法不一樣，這就好像我們去餐廳，三個人叫同樣三個套餐，其他兩個套餐都一樣，我這個套餐要不要上甜點，還要問一下廚師，我們問的就只是這個平等互惠的原則。部長，為什麼公教人員沒有辦法跟勞保跟國民年金一樣？我們只要求一樣、同等的對待，為什麼不行？勞保、農保、國民年金的規定，完全是只需要這樣一個處理，為什麼？差別在哪裡？部長，你未來也馬上會屬於退休教師的範圍，誰可以回答我這個問題？次長嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想當時公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例的修正，主要是有一個世代互助的精神。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是啊！我們同樣，但我覺得這是兩碼子事，你看看大法官的解釋，隨物價指數核實調整，大法官解釋是，退撫給與之財產上價值，不隨時間經過而產生實質減少，這是政府的責任跟義務。年改前有這樣的規定，年改之後完全取消，改成調幾趴，需要過五關斬六將，看政府的臉色。所以這是一個公平對待的問題，你不能告訴我，別人都可以隨著物價指數直接做修正，退休的公教人員卻要採用不同的方法……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以第六十七條也確實做了修正，就是每四年有CPI正負百分之五……"],["柯委員志恩：是，但是跟其他相比，我剛剛就舉套餐為例，其他兩個就不用，他們在法規上就直接這樣規定啊！而且我拿出這個部分是有所本的，你不能因為時間改變，然後實質的減少，這個部分是法規上來做這樣的部分，我們只要求一個，跟前面我們講的國民年金跟農保一樣的對待而已，第六十七條的修正是如此啊！所以我們提出一個非常卑微且很合理的要求，跟別人是一樣的。部長，你身為教育部部長，有這麼多老師同意，而且有這麼多退休的教職員，我不要提到他們對臺灣的貢獻，我只問為什麼沒有辦法一樣？真的不論別人怎麼講，教育部都應該要據理力爭！時間關係，我尊重主席的時間，但是部長沒有給我回應。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["柯委員志恩：我的提醒之後呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會努力。"],["柯委員志恩：好，努力，反正我們距離審法條還有一些時間，我們就看看部長在這個時間怎麼努力，好不好？時間關係，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員。因為今天登記發言的委員很多，所以聯席委員會的委員發言時間以6分鐘為限；非本聯席委員會的委員發言則以3分鐘為限。","接下來請萬美玲委員發言。"],["陳委員培瑜：剛剛第一個委員發言時間11分……主席要公平！"],["主席：接下來請萬委員。"],["萬委員美玲：我可以開始了嗎？"],["主席：可以。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們來有請教育部部長以及學術部的政事那也跟主席報告那個主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重那也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點因為我問的問題其實都蠻具體的有時候在那邊隱隱啊啊啊或者是在上面整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答 全部在浪費時間嘛這一點也再請召委一併斟酌 來"},{"start":36.383,"end":48.321,"text":"委員長三位好 我時間的關係不一一問首先從那個 旋序部開始警察人員人事條例總統修法公佈了以後我上一次請教說"},{"start":50.908,"end":79.272,"text":"新法生效以後 現在我不是在講新法生效前退休了 新法生效以後法律已經生效 你們給人家退休的核定函就應該依照新法計算這個是法治國家的ABC嘛我那一天 外選序部的部長我問他說啊 你確定你給他們的函上面有依照新法計算的他跟我說有 他跟我說有 但問題是什麼問題是啊 我們警察同仁跟我"},{"start":80.359,"end":104.358,"text":"提出陳情的時候 我一向是實事求是我不會他們嘴巴跟我說 喂喂沒有欸你說會按照新法計算我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算那我當然就跟他要那個函來看啊看上面到底是怎麼寫的啊結果我寫了 我拿來要來看了以後沒有錯啊你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率啊"},{"start":106.09,"end":113.924,"text":"你們的部長怎麼會跟我說來來來看一下你確定給他們的函上面有依照新法計算思年節跟我說有 這怎麼回事"},{"start":115.106,"end":138.963,"text":"現在到底按照舊法計算還按照新法計算我再強調一次喔不是以前舊的人你們系統要改變要時間到年底是法律生效以後申請退休的人法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例你們部長也跟我說有但是人家給我的函我看起來這個函也不是偽造變造的啦怎麼會出現這樣的差異"},{"start":140.304,"end":165.091,"text":"我跟委員報告一下第一個是時間差的問題我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後我們後來在8月以後的審定行我們全部都是曾經改過一版這個部分我們會送給委員來參考前面的部分是把它分成兩段所以我也承認一個寫在本函上面 一個是寫在互助上面這個部分 但是對它實質的影響都不會有影響"},{"start":165.711,"end":188.387,"text":"你說對他實際不會有影響 那我就具體的問嘛他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算的 新的還舊的目前因為新的部份要增加的部份是沒有預算的部份但是舊的部份絕對都是沒有啦 這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛國家沒有編預算會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎 不會嘛"},{"start":189.963,"end":216.964,"text":"你行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算再做行政處分這不是很荒謬嗎任何簡單的啦 我講個最簡單的任何現在去考高考三級的人考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案我們現在國家"},{"start":218.406,"end":230.305,"text":"對於公務人員 對於警消他們公法上面的金錢債權在做行政處分是依法做還是依預算做有預算就按照預算"},{"start":231.365,"end":256.618,"text":"沒有預算也沒有辦法現在考試院的立場是什麼行政院可以很政治但是考試院我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊怎麼考試院做事也會這樣我們不會這樣子做啦但現實上不是這樣做嗎我跟委員報告屬於基金該給的我們都會支付但是因為條例上面有規律那是供預算編列那我們就沒有我們這個是要編在內政部那邊所以我才問你嘛"},{"start":257.358,"end":267.799,"text":"你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分我們是按照法律在做行政處分對 那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎有嗎有啊 我們現在會做啊"},{"start":268.871,"end":293.556,"text":"而且我跟委員報告 我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁四萬多件我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊那是舊的嗎不是 新的啦新的還需要多久就跟委員報告過一樣到年底好 沒關係 我希望你年底前可以完成喔因為很多警察同仁啊 這個牽涉到他們實際上面的生活嘛"},{"start":294.69,"end":317.824,"text":"我們說要尊重警消感謝他們的冒險犯案投入救災什麼事情都他們在做有事警察幹沒有事的時候幹警察然後搞到現在連他們依法應該獲得的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現我為什麼這個問題質詢三次啊因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我澄清我希望"},{"start":319.024,"end":347.826,"text":"選區部在你們職長範圍之內依法該做的趕快做到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題那我們自然而然會請行政院負責接下來請教育部部長部長當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候那個時候所得替代率每一年逐年的調降教育部的版本是分幾年調降十年十年"},{"start":352.881,"end":375.474,"text":"錯來我直接給你看這個是教育部當初行政院函請公立學校教職員退休輔具條例10年是後來立法委員提的版本行政院的版本是分幾年15年啊15年啊 我白紙黑字都寫在上面啊10年是立法委員的提案啊是段宜康他們提的啊"},{"start":376.519,"end":398.484,"text":"行政院的版本是分15年部長你有看到嗎自己的業務要熟今天都已經要來這邊備詢了10年跟15年的差別是每一年多什麼 多0.5%所以difference我全部都做出來了這個是第一件事情"},{"start":399.656,"end":412.623,"text":"那等於是什麼 等於是今天教育部的立場到底有改變沒有改變第二個最重要的你們在書面報告上面的數字啊說如果停侃的話50年會增加1600多億嗎沒有錯吧你們再去看一下選區部的報告選區部的報告是如果停侃的話5年會增加1400多億啊"},{"start":423.615,"end":453.081,"text":"同一天喔 到這邊來報告喔一個教育部 一個學習部兩個數字都兜不起來這個作業齁 我跟你們講啊要再嚴謹一點啦我相信你有很多理由要解釋啊但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字就不一樣啊就不一樣啊五十年 不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億平均一年多少錢 就三十億嘛"},{"start":454.042,"end":482.561,"text":"我這樣說沒有錯吧 部長一年三十億喔一年三十億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念每一年我們的政府亂花浪費貪腐給廠商惡搞走的有幾個三十億啊有幾個三十億啊結果面對這些基層的老師苛刻的不得了我們政府自己的貪腐自己的浪費"},{"start":484.624,"end":511.24,"text":"給廠商胡搞瞎搞我再講一次啦一年有幾個30億我先不講這件事情啦我先從最基本的開始講去年的時候我參加一個記者會記者會全教總說針對有關於教師的撥補要採10年方案不要採15年方案那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加喔一起參加說我一定會建議行政院從善如流"},{"start":512.523,"end":522.168,"text":"明年編制115年預算就應該採取10年撥補的方案來 我現在看預算書今年是10年撥補還是15年撥補今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補是採哪一個方案 10年還20年"},{"start":532.472,"end":546.645,"text":"跟委員報告 部裡面我們是分10年撥補但是最終是以20年的方式來進行那所以什麼 去年跟錢教崇一起開記者會在那邊委託人 話隨便講一講說要10年撥補 結果出來預算書還是20年撥補"},{"start":554.898,"end":583.532,"text":"教育部認為應該10年撥補還是20年撥補按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛到行政院 卓榮泰決定20年撥補部長有沒有跟他據理力爭部長你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭還是卓榮泰決定了你鼻子摸一摸算了我還是就聽院長的來 請教部長我們也確實有對這個撥補也做了一些表達跟卓榮泰表達嗎"},{"start":584.811,"end":610.843,"text":"有建議那因為整個從整體的一個政府的一個預算跟這個有一個條例等於說我們所有的退休裡邊所有的東西都是政府到最後他一定會會來這個最後的一個保證責任我想這也是整體考量到這個所以這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎因為你現在在討論的是說"},{"start":612.304,"end":640.087,"text":"啊 如果教師停凱 未來每年會多30億來 我來看看 10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢最終差了750億啊奇怪 10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億你們不慘一定要20年撥補那我看不懂啦然後你現在在計較一年30億的我完全看不懂啊"},{"start":641.127,"end":654.926,"text":"做出的承諾不履行 採取的方案多花納稅人750億這是什麼施政 這是什麼治理 這是什麼數學這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢 我完全看不懂"},{"start":656.633,"end":677.336,"text":"我完全看不懂最後一句話針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去還是要停止下來反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":222,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請教育部部長以及銓敘部政次。也跟主席報告，主席宣告的時間我一定都尊重，也希望官員回答問題的時候能夠比較流暢一點，因為我問的問題其實都滿具體的，有時候在那邊「咦咦啊啊」或者是整個人呆住完全沒有辦法回答，全部都是在浪費時間嘛，這一點也再請召委一併斟酌。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好。時間關係，我就不一一問候。首先從銓敘部開始，警察人員人事條例的修法經總統公布了以後，我上一次請教過，在新法生效以後，現在我不是在講新法生效前退休的，而是新法生效以後退休的，法律已經生效了，你們給人家的退休核定函就應該依照新法計算，這個是法治國家的ABC嘛！我那一天問銓敘部部長，我問他：你確定給他們的函上面，有依照新法計算的？他跟我說：有。但問題是什麼？我們警察同仁向我提出陳情的時候，我一向是實事求是，不會只聽他們嘴巴跟我說：委員，沒有，你說會按照新法計算，我們拿到的都還是按照舊法計算。我當然就跟他要那個函來看，看看上面到底是怎麼寫的。結果我要來看了以後發現沒有錯，你們現在給人家的還是按照舊法計算的所得替代率，你們的部長怎麼會跟我那樣回答呢？來，請看一下，我問「你確定給他們的函上面，有依照新法計算的？」施能傑跟我說「有」，這怎麼回事？現在到底按照舊法計算還是按照新法計算？我再強調一次，不是以前退休的人，你們系統要改變所需要的時間要到年底，而是法律生效以後申請退休的人，法律生效以後申請退休的人就應該依照警察人員人事條例，你們部長也跟我說「有」，但是人家給我看的函看起來也不是偽造變造的啦，怎麼會出現這樣的差異？"],["懷次長敍：我跟委員報告一下，第一個是時間差的問題，我們在7月30號跟內政部整個確定以後，後來在8月以後的審定函我們全部都重新改過一版，這個部分我們會送給委員來參考。前面的部分是把它分成兩段，這個我也承認，一個寫在本函上面，一個寫在附註上面，但是對他實質的影響是都不會有影響，我跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：你說對他的實質影響是不會有影響……"],["懷次長敍：沒有影響。"],["黃委員國昌：那我就具體地問嘛，他現在每個月領到的退休金是依照什麼計算？新的還是舊的？"],["懷次長敍：目前因為新的是沒有……新的部分、要增加的部分是沒有預算的部分，但是舊的部分絕對都是……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！這個就回到我一開始的問題嘛！"],["懷次長敍：對啊。"],["黃委員國昌：國家沒有編預算，會影響到公務人員公法上面的金錢債權嗎？不會嘛！行政處分就應該要依法做行政處分啊，什麼時候我們國家的制度變成是依照行政院編的預算在做行政處分？這不是很荒謬嗎？我講一個最簡單的，任何現在去考高考三級的人，考到行政法序論都不可能出現這麼荒謬的答案，我們現在國家對於公務人員、對於警消的公法上金錢債權，在做行政處分是依法去做還是依預算去做？有預算就按照預算，沒有預算也沒有辦法，現在考試院的立場是什麼？行政院可以很政治，但是考試院，我們對考試院有一定程度的尊重啊，怎麼考試院做事也會這樣？"],["懷次長敍：我們不會這樣子做啦！"],["黃委員國昌：但現實上不是這樣做嗎？"],["懷次長敍：不是，我跟委員報告，屬於基金該給的，我們都會支付，但是因為條例上面規定的，那是公務預算要編列，我們沒有，那個是要編在內政部那邊……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才問你嘛，你們現在是按照法律在做行政處分還是按照預算在做行政處分？"],["懷次長敍：我們依照法律在做行政處分。"],["黃委員國昌：對，那你們現在有按照法律在做行政處分嗎？有嗎？"],["懷次長敍：有啊！我們現在會做啊！而且我跟委員報告，我們部裡面從部長到承辦同仁，對這四萬多件，我們比誰都希望趕快把它處理掉啊！"],["黃委員國昌：那是舊的嘛！"],["懷次長敍：不是，新的啦！"],["黃委員國昌：新的？"],["懷次長敍：對，就是要把這個條例通過以後的……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？"],["懷次長敍：就跟委員報告過，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣到年底？"],["懷次長敍：對、對、對，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，我希望你年底前可以完成喔！因為這個牽涉到很多警察同仁實際上的生活嘛，我們說要尊重警消，感謝他們冒險犯難投入救災，什麼事情都他們在做，有事警察幹、沒有事的時候幹警察，然後搞到現在連他們依法應有的保障都沒有辦法獲得實現，我為什麼這個問題質詢三次？因為有很多警察同仁跑來跟我陳情，我希望銓敘部在職掌範圍之內，依法該做的趕快做，到時候沒有編預算是行政院的問題，我們自然而然會請行政院負責。","接下來我要請問教育部，部長，當初2017年提出教育人員退休改革的時候，那個時候所得替代率是每年逐年的調降，教育部的版本是分幾年調降？"],["鄭部長英耀：10年。"],["黃委員國昌：錯！來，我直接給你看，這個是當初由教育部研擬後送出的行政院函請公立學校教職員退休撫卹條例，10年是後來立法委員提的版本，行政院的版本是分幾年？15年啦！我白紙黑字都寫在上面，10年是立法委員的提案，是段宜康他們提的，行政院的版本是分15年啦！部長，你有看到嗎？自己的業務要熟啦！今天都已經要來這邊備詢了，10年跟15年的差別是每一年多0.5%嘛，所以difference我全部都做出來了，這個是第一件事情，這個等於是什麼？是今天教育部的立場到底有改變還是沒有改變？","第二個最重要的，你們在書面報告上面的數字提到，如果停砍的話，50年會增加一千六百多億，沒有錯吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們再去看一下銓敘部的報告，銓敘部的報告是如果停砍的話，5年會增加一千四百多億。同一天到這邊來報告，一個教育部、一個銓敘部，兩個數字都兜不起來，這個作業要再嚴謹一點啦！我相信你有很多理由要解釋，但是立法委員看到的官方報告怎麼行政院來的數字跟考試院來的數字不一樣，就不一樣啊！50年，不管是一千四百多億還是一千六百多億，平均一年多少錢？就30億嘛，我這樣說沒有錯吧？部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["黃委員國昌：一年30億，一年30億在我們目前中央政府總預算裡面是什麼概念？","每一年我們的政府亂花、浪費、貪腐、給廠商惡搞走的，有幾個30億啊？有幾個30億啊？結果面對這些基層的老師卻苛刻得不得了，政府自己的貪腐、自己的浪費、給廠商胡搞瞎搞，我再講一次，一年有幾個30億？","我先不講這件事情，我先從最基本的開始講。去年我參加一個記者會，記者會上全教總說，有關於教師的撥補，要採10年方案，不要採20年方案。那時候還有民進黨的立委一起參加，還說：我一定會建議行政院從善如流，明年編制115年預算時就應該採取10年撥補的方案。來，我現在看預算書，今年是10年撥補還是20年撥補？是採哪一個方案？10年還是20年？"],["朱次長俊彰：跟委員報告，部裡面是分10年撥補，但最終是以20年的方式來進行。"],["黃委員國昌：所以去年跟全教總一起開記者會，是在那邊「畫虎爛」喔！話隨便講一講喔！說要10年撥補，結果預算書出來還是20年撥補。教育部認為應該10年撥補，還是20年撥補？按照你剛剛的說法是10年撥補嘛！到行政院，卓榮泰決定20年撥補。部長，你有沒有跟他據理力爭？部長，你有沒有跟卓榮泰據理力爭，還是卓榮泰決定了，你鼻子摸一摸就算了，還是聽院長的？來，請教部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們確實有對這個撥補做了一些表達。"],["黃委員國昌：跟卓榮泰表達嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：有建議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以卓榮泰還是堅持己見？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為從整體政府的預算跟有一個條例，等於說我們退休裡面，所有的東西政府到最後一定會來負最後的保證責任，我想這也是整體考量到年度預算……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？這跟我們在討論的事情有差嗎？因為今天在討論的是，如果教師停砍，未來每年會多30億。來，我來看看，10年撥補跟20年撥補最終差了多少錢？最終差了750億啊！奇怪，10年撥補可以幫我們所有的納稅人節省750億，你們不採，一定要20年撥補，那我就看不懂啦？然後你現在在計較1年30億的，我完全看不懂啊！做出的承諾不履行，採取的方案多花納稅人750億，這是什麼施政、這是什麼治理、這是什麼數學、這是什麼叫幫納稅人省錢？我完全看不懂啊！我完全看不懂啊！","最後一句話，針對這一次公教人員是不是砍到2025年要繼續砍下去，還是要停止下來，反映現在他們實際生活的需要以及年金改革告一個段落，台灣民眾黨黨團會有非常明確的立場跟態度，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，請回座。"],["王委員義川：主席，說11分鐘喔！"],["主席：接下來請柯志恩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-36,22-1","speakers":["翁曉玲","賴士葆","張智倫","許宇甄","黃健豪","林倩綺","黃國昌","王義川","柯志恩","陳培瑜","萬美玲","劉書彬","葛如鈞","莊瑞雄","林宜瑾","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","吳思瑤","郭昱晴","王鴻薇","范雲","黃建賓","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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國民黨黨團擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案；(三)委員賴士葆等29人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及第三十八條條\n文修正草案」案；(四)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十七條條\n文修正草案」案；(五)委員許宇甄等21人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十七條及\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n第六十七條條文修正草案」案；(七)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；(八)委員葉元之等20人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(九)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第三十\n七條條文修正草案」案；(十)委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公立學校教職員退休資遣撫卹條例第六十\n七條條文修正草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00002"}}},{"id":"164353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bec674c2d09b2e78f9336e3c0e2d3d52383c966d97180d5d2856507347698b5fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:42:00 - 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我們政府沒有出一毛錢"},{"start":144.29,"end":168.203,"text":"這樣跟我回答但是部長我必須提到一些比較稍微敏感問題但是這是公開資料這根據政治現今公開資料雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物其中包括新系多名的立委跟議員捐款時間都在賴靜林擔任董事長時間另外嘉義新聞智虹池水面型光電的違運商叫做永新能源他也曾捐款給立委賴榮榮100萬元"},{"start":169.884,"end":182.89,"text":"捐贈多比給庶民民進黨的高雄市議員後來不知道為什麼又返還不知道發生什麼事我明白環境部在過去整個關鍵產業的發展當中其實沒什麼太重要的角色為什麼呢因為他很多這個開發案長職都規避了環評責任根本不需要環評嘛"},{"start":186.551,"end":209.27,"text":"所以環境變成局外人那等於是說光電廠商左手餵養這個政治人物右手他就一邊去賺這個綠電的利益難怪環境部被架空了所以我現在請教部長您回頭想您是否認為過去光電產業的這個發展排除了環境部的這個角色排除了環境的必要性 您認為這是對的嗎"},{"start":211.567,"end":230.759,"text":"報告委員其實因為過去所有全世界的這種所謂光電的環評我有注意到就是誰什麼時候建立的那大概他的時間都很短就是在過去這幾年才有所以過去呢因為我是去年五月才來那過去呢可能也是參著全世界其他的國家就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎您覺得OK"},{"start":235.141,"end":256.606,"text":"當然如果任何的國家的開發能夠多有環境的意見對我們保護我們國土是有用的等一下我會再告訴部長為什麼您現在應該是要覺得是很要積極了三個月過去了這些碎玻璃那個混入泥土中你看越來越難清理那過去有少數同時有少數的那個光電板你看像最右邊那張圖還浮在那個還泡在水裡"},{"start":260.56,"end":284.292,"text":"那有民間團體例如看守台灣他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到這個池底裡那因為尖銳的表面他會割傷底漆型的這個生物那部長您去現看的時候你有發現業者他是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮桶啊您自己也看到了那這個過程你露天破碎就是不蓋也不墊這個塑膠微粒的這個浮桶他這種"},{"start":285.312,"end":311.871,"text":"這個微粒會溢散到空中然後如果被浮游生物吃了不但影響他們的這個營養分的這個吸收而且還會影響他們生長那最後如果微粒越來越小微粒只會越來越小然後根據這個食物鏈的累積加疊最後會進入人類的食物系統所以我請教部長這個不是這個這個是一個可以推論的結果部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底"},{"start":312.967,"end":337.06,"text":"到我們人類餐桌上的這個風險有沒有在想這件事情好 包委員這個其實有幾個層次喔第一個是說它如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面其實我們有跟能源署討論說一定要請業者去打撈的那這個目前他們正在處理當中我認為是要打撈要看過一次讓大家幸福的我是希望部長還是要講長遠的影響因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點"},{"start":337.6,"end":354.848,"text":"那第二個是他在現場因為他想要因為那個浮桶很大面積很大他想要縮小方便輕運省一點錢就是那家的很被我們罰了900萬的業者因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西他把它破壞掉那其實他原先如果是是沒有這個正常的"},{"start":356.489,"end":376.485,"text":"這個是不約併一起 所以也被我們要求專家就環境品質屋教基金會指出目前志宏池光電設施的審定原則有11項 左邊有11項但是它的重點在排水還有故障的時候處理並未充分納入這個防災風險以及結構安全強度的這個關鍵審查要素那原則也沒有訂定這個所謂的抗風標準"},{"start":377.546,"end":389.079,"text":"那缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的一個審查機制那投標契約又不公開啊那這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢所以當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時他沒有全面考量這個環境的條件或是氣候邊間的這個風險導致現在部分的案場在颱風好雨時受損了"},{"start":398.869,"end":426.217,"text":"甚至影響周邊安全所以顯示現行的制度有漏洞那環境部如果認為這是跨部會要的權責你是否願意主動召開這個協調會呢報告委員因為這個其實我們在前幾個月我們發現問題之後有主動提出來也有跟經濟部也有討論過這個事情那他們其實也把它納進去他們的這個發行的許可的一個條件那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊"},{"start":426.737,"end":451.646,"text":"我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調那謝謝部長部長您多數提到那個光電廠普遍缺乏防災應變計畫而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞您自己這樣講那請問環境部是否以針對這個問題著手研擬一套或者說一致的統一的一個應災這個災變的應變措施來確保未來新設的案場 案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的這個思維呢"},{"start":452.367,"end":465.583,"text":"這個部分我們已經有跟經濟部也跟能源署有過協商那他們也承諾來做這個事情那因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災啦所以我相信等到一段落之後我們一定會來做但是現在要積極改變嘛"},{"start":467.145,"end":494.941,"text":"那現行法規叫水面型的光電設施並不需要環評讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督請問貴部是否同意這個檢討並增訂法條要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制然後我就說再提針對已經營運這是未來那針對已經在營運的這個光電暗場環境部是否有規劃說我們如何進行這個補強或回溯的一個檢討這樣子相關的作業您有在做嗎"},{"start":495.541,"end":510.979,"text":"有 這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部也跟能源署有在協商那他們其實也很快的把我們所提供要求的意見納進去了那我們未來應該會跟他們有些協商的會議來最後確認這些事情部長我想提醒你前幾天卓院長在被尋獸黃國昌總召說"},{"start":513.041,"end":535.967,"text":"他回答黃國昌就是我本來的想法是在水面一定面積以上的話我們給他是更慎重就是對於水面型光電是否納入環評他但是你們都說在評估中那卓院長的回答是這樣的那你已經提到說多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災的應變計劃目前顯示真的是存在漏洞所以那你們一二再三說評估中到底有什麼困難"},{"start":536.847,"end":563.01,"text":"卓院長也某個程度表達因為第一個是我目前還看不到一個水因為水面型的光電暗場它大概都10例如說10M就10公頃以上那麼大面積那到底要多大的面積是合理的這可以討論因為卓院長也有一些承諾最後我很遺憾的告訴就是說我必須談這個部分2018年雲報的雲報的子宮是照樣他取得這個新溫制洪池的光電暗的標案可是他同年就轉售給英商GRP2"},{"start":564.452,"end":576.71,"text":"那現在這個案場的實際的建商跟違運商永新在2020年也被同一家叫做貝萊德的這個基金收購等於說外商權之掌控這個案場這種案例凸顯說台灣的光電廠很慘"},{"start":579.614,"end":601.741,"text":"正走向一個以逐利追求利益追逐利益為導向的發展模式他把它當做一個投資的商品重在資金的一個操作跟報酬的回收但是對於防災的規劃或是這個環境責任就開始邊緣化那制度上毫無約束這個就是說一個事實部長那目前台灣大多數這個光電的案場背後母公司都是外商"},{"start":602.441,"end":628.975,"text":"那這些外資所以積極投入我認為是我們20年期的有這個再生能源的滾購制度嘛他這個有穩定的收入這是一個誘因嘛但是一旦滾購制度結束那獲利不再保證這些外商會抽腿啊會離開啊那到時候這些光電這個開發暗場會留下什麼就是我們現在看到啊那個農地被破壞啦樹林被砍光重電啊那那個廢棄的光電板就回收有困難啊"},{"start":630.336,"end":657.871,"text":"都要由你來收拾啊 部長由你來收拾欸 所以我的意思說如果你不及早納入環評 上後視你你覺得公平嗎 如果這樣你還不思考 還不積極說在這個光電產業發展中環境部要有更積極的作為嗎對 報告委員 我們就是這個是現在進行式 我們已經在進行當中也跟委員報告 不管藍綠 不管藍綠做光電的有藍也有綠 那不管藍綠我們就照著保護環境的這個原則來進行 這是我的態度"},{"start":658.8,"end":670.26,"text":"好 部長 你有責無權是很糟糕的那既然已經看到後果了所以要積極介入好嗎好 沒問題環境署稱呼環境部的很重要的原因嘛好 謝謝委員我們會做謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝陳昭之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時37分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，你剛剛也有報告到丹娜絲颱風重創南臺灣的一些光電場址，你談的是光電板的數量，好像我聽到是20萬，但是我要談的是，它是超過2,000噸的廢棄物。經濟部次長在7月16日備詢的時候，向黃國昌委員說，已經完成99%的清理，但是根據媒體的報導，部長請看附圖，記者在10月份實地走訪災場，發現仍然有碎玻璃還有電線插在土壤裡。我想請問部長，你作為全國主掌環境保護的最高機關，你覺得這樣算清理完成了嗎？清理完成了99%嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：感謝委員的意見。這個訊息我有看到，我有特別跟我的同仁查驗，因為我們9月6號有去所有的現場再複查一遍，的確沒有看到這樣的情況。不過因為當地是一個開放的場域，我有請同仁在這個禮拜再去看一次，因為有可能經過大雨之後沖刷跑出來的東西，這個有可能我們有遺漏的地方。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。部長，我是說首長在備詢的時候要回答得非常的仔細，說99%清理完，那就是全部清理完了。清理現場其實是第一線業者的工作，但部長我必須這樣講，這段時間我有發現，環境部不斷地用部的名義來幫業者背書，你說他們都非常努力在清理現場，其實我不只聽您這樣講過一次。既然環境部願意幫雲豹旗下的業者背書，我要請教環境部，是基於什麼樣的理由你們願意為這個業者背書呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我沒有背書，我重罰。我是重罰，像最後一家他清理的速度很慢，我們罰了900萬，我沒有背書，是重罰，當然我們也要鼓勵他、拜託他清快一點。"],["陳委員昭姿：你應該說你會好好監督，因為你是對著立法委員在回答這個問題，你認為他們都很努力了，盡力了，然後我也問你這個費用誰處理，將來我也會追究這個費用……"],["彭部長啓明：都他們出，政府沒有出一毛錢。"],["陳委員昭姿：當時你是這樣跟我回答，但是部長，我必須提到一些稍微敏感的問題，但這是公開的資料。根據政治獻金的公開資料，雲豹能源歷年共捐了440萬元給22名民進黨的政治人物，其中包括多名新系的立委跟議員，捐款時間多在賴勁麟擔任董事長的期間。另外，嘉義新塭的滯洪池水面型光電的維運商叫做永鑫能源，他也曾捐款給立委賴瑞隆100萬元，捐贈多筆給數名民進黨的高雄市議員，後來不曉得為什麼又返還，不知道發生什麼事。","我明白環境部過去在整個光電產業的發展當中，其實沒有什麼太重要的角色，為什麼呢？因為很多開發案場址都規避了環評責任，根本不需要環評，所以環境部變成局外人，等於是說光電廠商左手餵養政治人物，右手他就一邊去賺綠電的利益了，難怪環境部被架空了。所以我現在要請教部長，您回頭想，您是否認為過去光電產業的發展排除了環境部的角色，排除了環評的必要性？您認為這是對的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實過去全世界所有的所謂光電的環評，我有注意到誰在什麼時候建立，大概他的時間都很短，就是在過去這幾年才有，因為我是去年5月才來，那過去可能也是參酌全世界其他的國家……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我當然不是請你概括承受，就是您認為過去沒有環境部的參與是對的嗎？您覺得OK嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：當然，如果任何國家的開發能夠都有環境的意見……"],["陳委員昭姿：今天看起來就不對了嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對保護我們的國土是有用的。"],["陳委員昭姿：等一下我會再告訴部長，為什麼您現在應該覺得要積極了。三個月過去了，這些碎玻璃混入泥土中，你看越來越難清理，同時也有少數的光電板，你看最右邊那張圖，還泡在水裡欸。有民間團體，例如看守臺灣，他們認為這些玻璃如果沉到池底裡，因為尖銳的表面，會割傷底棲型的生物。","部長，您去現勘的時候也發現，業者是露天直接破碎那個塑膠浮筒，您自己也看到啦，露天就是不蓋也不墊，破碎塑膠浮筒的微粒會溢散到空中，然後如果被浮游生物吃了，不但影響他們的營養份的吸收，還會影響他們生長，最後如果微粒越來越小，微粒只會越來越小、越來越小，然後根據食物鏈的累積加疊，最後會進入人類的食物系統，我想這是一個可以推論的結果，部長認為應該如何妥善來解決從池底到我們人類餐桌上的風險，有沒有在想這件事情？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實有幾個層次，第一個，如果破碎的玻璃或是污染物掉到下面，其實我們有跟能源署討論，一定要請業者去打撈，此事目前他們正在處理當中，我認為是要打撈、要看過一次，讓大家信服，因為這是……"],["陳委員昭姿：我是希望部長還是要想這種有長遠影響的……"],["彭部長啓明：對、對。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為我第一次質詢就有提到這一點。"],["彭部長啓明：對。第二個是因為那個浮筒面積很大，他想要縮小以方便清運，省一點錢，就是那家被我們罰了900萬的業者……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，謝謝。因為塑膠微粒是很危險的東西，對生物、對人類……"],["彭部長啓明：對、對，他把它破壞掉，那其實他原先如果是沒有這個正常的……"],["陳委員昭姿：他沒有一個處理的方法，就直接露天……"],["彭部長啓明：這個是不允許的，所以也被我們要求……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，環境品質文教基金會的專家指出，目前滯洪池光電設施的審定原則有11項，但是它的重點在排水還有故障時候的處理，並未充分納入防災風險以及結構安全強度的關鍵審查要素，11項原則中也沒有訂定所謂的抗風標準，缺乏法律的強制性以及第三方結構技師的審查機制，投標契約又不公開，這樣怎麼有利於大眾監督呢？當初經濟部跟農業部在設立規範時，沒有全面考量環境的條件或是氣候變遷的風險，導致現在部分的案場在颱風豪雨時受損了，甚至影響周邊安全，顯示現行的制度有漏洞。環境部如果認為這是跨部會的權責，你是否願意主動召開協調會呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個其實我們在前幾個月發現問題之後有主動提出來，也有跟經濟部討論過這個事情，他們其實也把它納進去作為他們發行許可的一個條件。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那是誰在處理這個跨部會的協調？因為不能做一半或是說中途而廢啊！"],["彭部長啓明：我們是主動的去跟經濟部協調。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。部長，您多次提到光電場普遍缺乏防災應變計畫，而且目前顯示制度確實存在漏洞，您自己這樣講。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問環境部是否已針對這個問題著手研擬一套或一致的、統一的災變應變措施，來確保未來新設的案場、案址能夠在設計的階段就納入防災的思維？"],["彭部長啓明：這個部分我們已經跟經濟部、能源署有過協商，他們也承諾來做這個事情，因為最近這幾個月我們都在忙救災，所以我相信等到告一段落之後，我們一定會來做。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我可以理解，因為過去沒有思考到，但是現在要積極改變。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：依現行法規，水面型的光電設施並不需要環評，讓這個維運計畫可以不受大眾監督，請問貴部是否同意檢討並增訂法條，要求業者在申請設置的階段就提出一個防災應變的清理機制？然後我要再提，針對已經營運的，這個是未來的部分，針對已經在營運的光電案場，環境部是否有規劃我們如何進行補強或回溯的檢討，這樣相關的作業您有在做嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，這個其實我們都有在跟經濟部、能源署協商，他們也很快地把我們所要求的意見納進去了，未來我們應該會跟他們有一些協商的會議來最後確認這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我想提醒你，前幾天卓院長曾在備詢時回答黃國昌總召說：我本來的想法是在水面、一定面積以上的我們要更慎重。對於水面型光電是否納入環評，你們都說在評估中，但卓院長的回答是這樣的，而你也提到多數光電案場普遍缺乏防災應變計畫，目前顯示真的是存在漏洞，你們一而再，再而三說評估中，到底有什麼困難？卓院長也某個程度表達啦！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是我目前還看不到一個水……因為水面型的光電案場大概都……例如說10MW就10公頃以上那麼大面積，到底要多大的面積是合理的？這個可以討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，可以，就是說你不要放掉，因為卓院長也有一些承諾。最後我很遺憾的說，我必須談這個部分，2018年雲豹子公司兆洋取得新塭滯洪池光電場標案後，同年就轉售給英商GRP II，現在這個案場實際的建商跟維運商永鑫在2022年也被同一家叫做貝萊德基金收購，等於說外商全資掌控這個案場，這種案例凸顯臺灣的光電場很慘，正走向一個追求利益、追逐利益為導向的發展模式，他們把它當作一個投資的商品，重在資金的操作跟報酬的回收，但是對於防災的規劃或是環境責任就開始邊緣化，制度上毫無約束，這是一個事實。","部長，目前臺灣大多數光電案場背後母公司都是外商，這些外資之所以積極投入，我認為是我們20年期再生能源的躉購制度，他會有穩定的收入，這是一個誘因，但是一旦躉購制度結束，獲利不再保證，這些外商會抽腿、會離開啊！到時候這些光電開發案場會留下什麼？就是我們現在看到的──農地被破壞、樹林被砍光種電、廢棄的光電板回收有困難，那都要由你來收拾，部長，由你來收拾欸！所以我的意思是，如果你不及早納入環評，善後是你負責，你覺得公平嗎？如果這樣，你還不思考、還不積極在這個光電產業發展中，環境部要有更積極的作為嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們就是……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要收拾啊！"],["彭部長啓明：這個是現在進行式，我們已經在進行當中，也跟委員報告，不管藍綠、不管藍綠，做光電的有藍也有綠，不管藍綠，我們就照著保護環境這個原則來進行，這是我的態度。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，你有責無權是很糟糕的，既然已經看到後果了，所以要積極介入，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是身為環境部很重要的原因。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，我們會做，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。","請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":214,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-5","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","羅廷瑋","陳菁徽","林月琴","劉建國","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王育敏","張啓楷","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉","楊曜","陳瑩","盧縣一","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":129,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部、經濟部、農業部、內政部就「太陽能光電板案場環評機制與保護區廢棄物管理\n之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六\n條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二\n十八條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員張智倫等17人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等24人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、( 五) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員\n牛煦庭等25人擬具「噪音管制法第二條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員羅明才等20人\n擬具「噪音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「噪\n音管制法第二十六條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案【專題報告及法律案採綜合詢答；法律案僅\n詢答】","agenda_id":"1148601_00003"}}},{"id":"164351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/03f010abd9bb8d1bcd47ef9d6a8b471388348e19566c842c83c966d97180d5d2e4b6af63088ab7755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:31:43 - 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主委本席針對你的簡報第10頁AI十大建設今天你要講清楚說明白你怎麼落地我從諾貝爾經濟學獎看創新驅動的發展也要求國發會明確佈局AI十大建設在高雄好 在這邊我們諾貝爾獎的啟示經濟成長要靠的是研發創新而不只是靠的是政府的支出"},{"start":42.532,"end":50.76,"text":"那今天已經宣布了AI十大建設希望透過研發矽光子與算力建設帶動台灣在2040年前創造15兆的產值這是您第10頁的簡報50萬個新就業機會隔回在9月的時候也宣布將無人載具納入了"},{"start":63.271,"end":75.803,"text":"好那這樣的一個諾貝爾獎啟示也經濟成長要靠研發創新我請國發會現在開始要評估兩件事情第一個矽光石的技術開發應該鼓勵業者在高雄"},{"start":79.066,"end":99.846,"text":"設立研發據點第二個工部門投入的預算力規劃成長有25倍應以工建計畫在高雄設立算力中心矽光子研發據點算力中心中的兩個十大AI十大建設中的這兩項就應該在高雄"},{"start":100.487,"end":126.653,"text":"那AI新十大建設如何落地呢既然有這個諾貝爾獎的一個啟示再看我們的前主委劉靜清他也講了台灣的半導體產業的失宏大概是2032年就會結束最多再延10年203最多再延2年2035年好台灣下一個10年的核心產業是什麼AI新十大建設如何落地"},{"start":127.994,"end":145.371,"text":"簡單這三個字關鍵技術在COOP西光子技術重大建設在篆力中心落腳就是在高雄好在西光子技術在高雄的必要性兩點第一個半導體設備的國產化當然有利於晶圓製造業強化供應鏈的韌性"},{"start":148.374,"end":169.149,"text":"那第二個矽光子是以光訊息代替電訊息以光收發模組來代替金屬導線他當然有這三大特性比這個電子的還高還好是以光矽光子來取代可以有高傳輸低耗能微型化來解決未來這個"},{"start":171.771,"end":194.85,"text":"資訊中心跟數據傳輸瓶頸的關鍵技術既然它可以比我們的電子更好的情況之下投入當然是必要的了好 台積電在最新的晶片設計已經發表了COOP西光子的引擎結合晶片封裝與光學傳輸也預計他們要covers的一起的量產"},{"start":195.751,"end":219.576,"text":"好高雄市有台積電高雄市有日月光是國內二奈米跟先進封裝的重鎮所以你的矽光子的供應鏈當然就要就近資源晶圓製造的地點輔導國內所有相關法人模組的廠商檢測業者落地進駐兩個地方南子園區跟橋頭園區"},{"start":222.637,"end":243.315,"text":"好AI十大建設中的算力中心本期再講一次了高雄還是最適合的為什麼呢原因有三第一個高雄百工百業對算力的需求最大第二個高雄的人員自主力最高第三個高雄有發展的決心中央投資成本是最低的"},{"start":243.815,"end":259.38,"text":"好我們說到AI十大建設的算力中心在高雄其中最適合的第一個原因百工百業對算力的需求最大傳統產業與中小企業是高雄的經濟基礎包括農業等"},{"start":261.141,"end":288.621,"text":"那所以呢高雄的相關金屬加工製造業我們的總產值是2330億其中螺絲螺帽等扣借業的蘇美的產值是達到了四分之一多523億相關產業最需要的AI協助轉型提升產品的良率跟降低排碳所以如果你要AI的運用旗艦程式非高雄莫屬"},{"start":289.702,"end":295.331,"text":"那高雄的人員自給率最高過去發展中工業高雄的電力自給率是152.9%超過台北的1.4%超過台中的86%而且目前也積極推動屋頂光電"},{"start":305.006,"end":332.044,"text":"所以這整個光電的總備案容量已經突破了1GW超過雙倍全國最不可能缺電的城市最適合設置算率中心的就是在高雄那第三個高雄有發展的決心中央投資成本最高高雄在今年已經攜手了輝達鴻海各電信業者打造全國第一個城市級的主權AI"},{"start":333.425,"end":350.412,"text":"在高雄雅灣這個以鴻海以輝達的超級晶片的這個GB200的伺服器為核心來建置算力中心這是民間喔他們民間也預計2026年明年完工喔那中央你做了什麼事"},{"start":351.092,"end":375.738,"text":"你只有擴大投資建設公部門的算力中心鼓勵企業運用算力才能促成百工百業的轉型主委要看清楚民間已經走在前面了你有AI十大建設其中的算力中心你要公部門投入現在你要落腳在哪裡不二選擇就是在高雄"},{"start":376.318,"end":403.384,"text":"好AI新十大建設要具體落地高雄高雄高雄無人載具跟AI都需要百工百業的垂直運用而無人載具用的控制跟操作都是仰賴人工智慧所以在高雄形成人工智慧矽光子無人機的產業鏈與產業聚落才是對國家最好的政策護國產業在高雄"},{"start":404.845,"end":422.99,"text":"我這句話再講清楚高雄市形成人工智慧矽光子無人機這三大產業鏈跟產業聚落是才是對國家最好的策略護國產業在高雄"},{"start":423.928,"end":443.167,"text":"從無人載具與軍工產業推動產業的AI化這個我就稍微提一下在10月3號對卓院長的質詢要求在高雄設立國際AI無人載具產業中心再次的在10月13號對拱部長的質詢提出了無人機可以屏占轉換"},{"start":444.868,"end":470.298,"text":"的一個這樣的論點以及我們的無人船已經應用在AI國內的台船中信中科院榮德其實都已經在做無人船的研發高雄的旗津跟興達港是打造研發跟測試的基地這些都需要AI也就是你的算力中心這個工建工部門投資的工建的一個設施來自"},{"start":471.178,"end":498.355,"text":"支援我們的這個無人載具的產業聚落結合我軍工產業無人機無人艇這個無人船的落腳在高雄的一個支援的很重要的工建的設施好這邊具體要求了請國發會檢討AI新十大建設的推動方向引領南部各縣市落地的計畫與施政並在一個月內提供第二個請國發會規劃"},{"start":500.516,"end":521.784,"text":"高雄設置矽光子產業開發平台及算力中心來接軌二奈米跟先進封裝的量產趨速加速推動半導體設備的自主國產化好來主委請回答題目很簡單AI十大建設當中的兩大建設矽光子的一個這個開發平台"},{"start":527.006,"end":548.815,"text":"第二個算率中心那就是在高雄請具體回應好謝謝委員那我就這兩個委員關心的議題回應委員就是說在矽光子這個部分的話我目前就是說經濟部正在討論那經濟部原則上來講會傾向就是說在矽光子這個部分的開發可能會在高雄這個部分那非常好"},{"start":550.092,"end":571.83,"text":"再講一次經濟部的矽光子的平台目前規劃在高雄是嗎在規劃在哪裡在規劃在高雄好OK好那繼續對那另外一個就算力這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說在公部門這一塊的話因為行政院已經"},{"start":575.441,"end":596.117,"text":"定就是說沙倫是新建的AI算力中心但這個部分在高雄這部分我們再跟那個國科會再商量一下看有沒有那一個一些可能這樣子然後另外一個這是公部門私部門這個部分來講的話鴻海就好像剛剛委員的那個簡報也有提到鴻海會在高雄建立所謂的算力算力中心那另外就是說"},{"start":597.398,"end":623.208,"text":"高雄的那個算力中心我們可能正在研議說是不是納入AI新時代建設所以你想這是另外一個我講了你雖然說沙崙在現在目前工部門的放在這個沙崙那你現在在高雄的你要研發什麼你要在算力中心你要做什麼規劃算力中心的話就私部門這一塊會在那個高雄什麼叫做私部門鴻海那他做就好啦不需要你花什麼錢啊"},{"start":624.585,"end":639.783,"text":"他自己花錢 本席要求我已經講了很明了如果你的我的這個無人載具產業中心是在這是經濟部在做研議他現在在做研議你的無人載具AI中心是在落腳在高雄無人機無人艇"},{"start":642.086,"end":657.978,"text":"這樣的一個的軍工產業要在接軌台美的軍工產業鏈當中那這個持足都是要算力中心的資源所以你在沙龍我沒有意見你沒有在一個直接在高雄資源的話"},{"start":658.638,"end":682.85,"text":"那你不可能有能夠撐起在整個全國在台美的軍工產業當中無人機無人艇的一個落實聚落在高雄所以你很明顯高雄是比台南更有產業聚落的你不要再重蹈加藝無人機的錯誤有水有電還有什麼有聚落"},{"start":683.47,"end":699.265,"text":"如果說你的算力中心要有水有電有聚酪這個聚酪很明顯未來的這個無人載具軍工產業無人機無人艇在高雄的話你沒有一個公建的部門你哪都保保都要刻意的揮打 把我們擠完這樣說的說得對"},{"start":700.706,"end":712.052,"text":"一個國家級的無人載具中心然後呢你說你的無人算地中心是在靠個揮打然後你有十大建設50億然後呢這個東西呢高雄就不需要那你覺得講得過去嗎 研議一下好嗎一個月內提出來好嗎好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":122,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時31分）我們請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["林委員岱樺：主委，本席針對你的簡報第10頁AI十大建設，今天你要講清楚、說明白你怎麼落地，我從諾貝爾經濟學獎看到創新驅動的發展，也要求國發會明確布局AI十大建設在高雄，我們從諾貝爾獎的啟示知道，經濟成長靠的是研發創新，而不只是靠政府支出。","今天已經宣布了AI十大建設，希望透過研發矽光子與算力建設，帶動臺灣在2040年前創造15兆的產值，這是您第10頁的簡報，50萬個新就業機會。卓揆在9月的時候，也宣布將無人載具納入了。","這樣的諾貝爾獎啟示，經濟成長要靠研發創新，我請國發會現在開始要評估兩件事情，第一個，矽光子的技術開發應該鼓勵業者在高雄設立研發據點；第二個，公部門投入算力規劃成長25倍應以公建計畫在高雄設立算力中心。AI十大建設中的這兩項（矽光子研發據點、算力中心）就應該在高雄，那AI十大建設如何落地呢？既然有諾貝爾獎的啟示，再看我們的前主委劉鏡清，他也講了臺灣半導體產業「吃紅」大概2032年就會結束，最多再延2年至2035年。臺灣下一個10年的核心產業是什麼？「AI新十大建設」如何落地？簡單講就這三件事，關鍵技術在「COUPE矽光子技術」、重大建設「算力中心」、落腳在高雄。","矽光子技術在高雄的必要性有兩點，第一個，半導體設備的國產化，當然有利晶圓製造業強化供應鏈的韌性；第二個，矽光子是以光訊息代替電訊號，以光收發模組代替金屬導線，它有這三大特性，比電子的還好，是以矽光子來取代，可以有高傳輸、低耗能、微型化來解決未來資訊中心跟數據傳輸瓶頸的關鍵技術，既然它可以比我們的電子更好的情況之下，投入當然是必要的啦！","台積電在最新的晶片設計上，已經發表了「COUPE矽光子引擎」，結合晶片封裝與光學傳輸，也預計他們要結合CoWoS一起量產。高雄市有台積電、高雄市有日月光，是國內2奈米跟先進封裝的重鎮，所以矽光子的供應鏈，當然就要就近支援晶圓製造的地點，輔導國內所有相關法人、模組的廠商、檢測業者落地，進駐兩個地方：楠梓園區跟橋頭園區。","AI十大建設中的算力中心，本席再講一次，高雄還是最適合的，為什麼呢？原因有三，第一個，高雄百工百業對算力的需求最大；第二個，高雄的人員自給率最高；第三個高雄有發展的決心，中央投資成本是最低的。","我們說到AI十大建設的算力中心在高雄，其中最適合的第一個原因，百工百業對算力的需求最大！傳統產業與中小企業是高雄的經濟基礎，包括農業等，所以高雄相關金屬加工製造業，我們的總產值是2,330億，其中螺絲、螺帽等扣件業輸美產值達到了四分之一之多，523億，相關產業最需要的AI協助轉型，提升產品的良率跟降低排碳，所以如果你要AI的運用旗艦城市非高雄莫屬。","高雄的能源自給率最高！過去發展重工業，高雄的電力自給率是152.9%，超過臺北的1.4%，超過臺中的86%，而且目前也積極推動屋頂光電，整個光電總備案容量已經突破了1GW，超過雙北，是全國最不可能缺電的城市，最適合設置算力中心就是在高雄。","第三個，高雄有發展決心，中央投資成本最低！高雄在今年已經攜手了輝達、鴻海、各電信業者，打造全國第一個城市級的主權AI。在高雄亞灣，鴻海以輝達超級晶片GB200伺服器為核心建置算力中心，這是民間喔！民間預計2026年完工，那中央你做了什麼事？你只有擴大投資建置公部門算力中心，鼓勵企業運用算力，才能促成百工百業的轉型。","主委要看清楚，民間已經走在前面了，你有AI十大建設，其中的算力中心，你要公部門投入，現在你要落腳在哪裡？不二選擇就是在高雄。AI新十大建設要具體落地：高雄！高雄！高雄！無人載具跟AI都需要百工百業的垂直運用，而無人載具用的控制跟操作都是仰賴人工智慧，所以在高雄形成人工智慧、矽光子、無人機的產業鏈與產業聚落，才是對國家最好的政策。護國產業在高雄，我這句話再講清楚一點，高雄是形成人工智慧、矽光子、無人機，這三大產業鏈跟產業聚落，才是對國家最好的策略，護國產業在高雄。","從無人載具與軍工產業推動產業的AI化，這個我稍微提一下，在10月3號對卓院長的質詢，要求在高雄設國際AI無人載具產業中心，我再次在10月13號對龔部長的質詢，提出了無人機可以平戰轉換這樣的論點，以及我們的無人船已經應用在AI，國內的台船、中信、中科院、龍德，其實都已經在做無人船的研發，高雄的旗津跟興達港是打造研發跟測試的基地，這些都需要AI，也就是你的算力中心這個公部門投資公建的一個設施，來支援我們無人載具的產業聚落，結合我軍工產業、無人機、無人艇、無人船落腳在高雄一個很重要公建的設施。","這邊具體要求，請國發會檢討AI新十大建設的推動方向，研擬在南部各縣市落地的計畫、時程，並在一個月內提供。第二個，請國發會規劃高雄，設置「矽光子產業開發平臺」及算力中心來接軌2奈米跟先進封裝的量產趨勢，加速推動半導體設備的自主國產化。主委請回答，題目很簡單，AI十大建設當中的兩大建設，矽光子的開發平臺，第二個是算力中心，就是在高雄，請具體回應。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。那我就這兩個委員關心的議題回應委員，在矽光子這個部分的話，目前經濟部正在討論，經濟部原則上來講會傾向矽光子這個部分的開發可能會在高雄。"],["林委員岱樺：那非常好，再講一次，經濟部的矽光子的平臺，目前規劃在高雄是嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在規劃。"],["林委員岱樺：在規劃？在哪裡？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：規劃在高雄。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK，那繼續。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：那另外一個就算力這個部分，跟委員報告一下，在公部門這一塊的話，因為行政院已經定在沙崙新建AI算力中心，但這個在高雄的部分，我們再跟國科會商量一下，看有沒有一些可能，這是公部門。私部門這個部分來講的話，鴻海，就好像剛剛委員的簡報也有提到，鴻海會在高雄建立所謂的算力中心。另外，高雄的算力中心，我們正在研議是不是納入AI新十大建設當中。"],["林委員岱樺：這是另外一個，雖然沙崙現在目前……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：公部門的。"],["林委員岱樺：是公部門的放在沙崙，那現在在高雄的，你要研發什麼？算力中心你要做什麼規劃？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：算力中心的話，就私部門這一塊，會在高雄……"],["林委員岱樺：什麼叫做私部門？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：鴻海、鴻海。"],["林委員岱樺：那他做就好了，不需要你花什麼錢，他自己花錢。本席要求，我已經講得很明了，如果你的無人載具產業中心，這是經濟部在做研議，他現在在做研議，你的無人載具、AI中心是落腳在高雄，無人機、無人艇這樣的一個軍工產業，在接軌臺美的軍工產業鏈當中，當然這個十足都需要算力中心的資源，所以你在沙崙我沒有意見，但你沒有再一個直接在高雄支援的話，那你不可能撐起臺美軍工產業當中無人機及無人艇的落實、聚落在高雄，所以很明顯，高雄是比臺南更有產業聚落的，你不要再重蹈嘉義無人機的錯誤，有水、有電，還有什麼？有聚落，如果說你的算力中心要有水、有電、有聚落，這個聚落很明顯，未來的無人載具、軍工產業、無人機、無人艇在高雄的話，你沒有一個公建的部門，你步步都要靠輝達支援我們，這樣是對的嗎？一個國家級的無人載具中心……"],["主席：好，那我們再請……"],["林委員岱樺：然後你說你的無人算力中心是靠輝達，然後你有十大建設50億，然後這個東西高雄就不需要，那你覺得講得過去嗎？研議一下好嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，我們會跟……"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["林委員岱樺：在一個月內提出來好嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：就照委員說的，一個月內將書面資料跟委員來討論，謝謝，"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來我們請邱議瑩委員，請做答詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-5","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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我的瞭解是合約沒有有一個上限的規範所以他就一直把這個是不是請採購室再說明一下向委員報告 有上限 就是建造款的20%20%是多少"},{"start":334.505,"end":342.869,"text":"百分之二十是多少193億的百分之二十百分之三二十差不多將近四十億將近四十億所以我們當時簽約的內容就是這樣"},{"start":350.964,"end":354.046,"text":"這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響我覺得這個可能整個合約因為我看我們國防部簽訂的合約其實有很多都有很大的問題我們也希望台船其實因為他們也第一次做怎麼樣其實把它做好可是不要欺騙國人因為我們過去我們現在再回過頭來看我們每一次都說有公檢有沒有都是定時的有召開公檢會"},{"start":377.739,"end":392.244,"text":"對不對那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題完全按照進度對不對跟委員報告那整個國造前期分成兩個部分一個是建造跟測試那我們的建造是按節點"},{"start":393.755,"end":405.723,"text":"那現在是因為測試的部分的確有一些裝備在測試的時候因為我們有驗收的責任所以每發現問題就要去衍生的工程的一些問題都要克服所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些"},{"start":409.426,"end":411.508,"text":"那我們在過去公檢的這個過程當中其實是沒有問題的在這裡我有幾個問題希望部長還有海軍參謀長還有海軍或者相關的包括台船你們可以提出來因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明說哪些裝備其實它的來源是哪裡"},{"start":431.984,"end":436.907,"text":"報章雜誌其實很多啦包括魚雷管從韓國走私來的我不知道這是真的還是假的如果是真的非常非常離譜可是我們完全從來沒有看過我們國防部也好或者台船也好或者相關的單位其實針對這個部分去做一個相關的處置或調查那我想在這裡要有幾個問題請我們部長還有我們參謀長還有我們海軍還有台船其實做出明確的"},{"start":462.384,"end":468.568,"text":"報告比如說像我們所有的裝備過去我們主持裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可而且我們還有備援就是至少都有三個來源以上這是黃曙光前召集人講的那我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備廠商原廠的保證書"},{"start":485.506,"end":493.672,"text":"有沒有具備保證書這個部分這個問題因為其實我們曾經介紹接貨檢舉有一些內部的人士他們說有些東西來源不明就是他沒有合格的保證書所以一到貨的時候這個裝備到的時候就要求承辦的相關人員他去簽收很多人根本不敢接下這個這個責任所以有很多人離職了這是第一點"},{"start":515.756,"end":516.106,"text":"你要回答"},{"start":517.83,"end":523.315,"text":"跟委員報告所有的裝備到接收前在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試做過測試之後才會送來他有保證書嗎他會有測試的報告都會有保證書嗎我現在要求第一點就是這些裝備有沒有保證書他的來源進口的來源其實因為有進關的話有進入我們的海關的話他其實都會有相關的程序這一點我們要求你們"},{"start":546.134,"end":549.839,"text":"公開的證明所有相關的這些主次裝備的來源好不好都有合格證明你要確認喔有合格證明喔FAT的測試報告是符合我們要求的標準測試報告跟合格證明是不是保證原廠保證書是一樣的嗎"},{"start":563.575,"end":567.036,"text":"我要的是原廠的保證書因為你們都說符合所有的輸出裝備這個部分有哪些如果沒有也請提供好不好你不用告訴我們是來自於哪裡可是如果有沒有的請你們提供出來另外我們一直講到因為這一次在整個測試的過程當中有兩項可能還在就是要執行的部分第一個就電力系統"},{"start":591.845,"end":603.307,"text":"第二個就是我們的整合式載台IPMS這個部分那我想要請教因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚就在錄音檔裡面有提到我們的主機是卡車卡車的在這裡要說明嗎你們有看過嗎"},{"start":618.262,"end":632.314,"text":"這個當初整個的構型的動力都是按照當初都是選商然後也經過我們都是找具備輸出許可參考長是潛艦的主機他需要的就是潛艦的"},{"start":633.595,"end":648.43,"text":"主機他使用的就是這個因為他有壓力他有下潛他有很多跟我們的路上的尤其是車輛他是完全不一樣的你們在這裡我們要求因為你已經做好了而且你已經在測試了請給國人一個明確的保證"},{"start":653.696,"end":664.274,"text":"這個東西 是不是潛艦用的主機或者甚至我們還接到訊息 不管是卡車或者甚至有可能是巴士並聯的主機"},{"start":668.733,"end":677.585,"text":"這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎它是經過延售、改裝、構改以後它拿來當成我們潛艦用的主機"},{"start":683.112,"end":685.933,"text":"不管是卡車或者是巴士並聯這六個主機請明確的證實因為你們一定可以看到來源你們一定知道它是什麼功能使用的主機請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的因為你們當時是跟"},{"start":703.078,"end":712.665,"text":"所有的包括李宗孝那時候當海軍司令的時候他告訴我們所有人包括立法院你在動用預算的時候你說所有的主次裝備的紅區裝備也好所有主次裝備你們所有的輸出許可都拿到了那表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機如果不是我們希望是不是卡車的"},{"start":726.355,"end":740.745,"text":"或者甚至是巴士並聯用在戰車上面的到底是不是請你們用你們因為我們信任你們包括部長因為部長是法律背景出身這個部分是做什麼用的台廠更清楚董事長要講一下嗎是車輛用的嗎"},{"start":747.521,"end":753.365,"text":"報告委員 這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的這個大廠所以他產品線很多所以我想 董事長我們知道今天你如果你賣任何的你賣電池也好 你賣什麼東西也好他就是有符合嘛你是要3號 4號 你是要幾號那很清楚 他很多種我知道可是我要在這裡請你們"},{"start":775.62,"end":778.542,"text":"做出承諾跟保證的這是什麼樣的主機是潛艦用的嗎是船艦用的嗎對 這個是船艦用的主機你保證對 因為我們他會有來源嘛 對不對你會有合格的證書嘛這個部分其實如果提供給立法院我相信沒有問題吧"},{"start":795.972,"end":814.072,"text":"應該是沒有問題沒有問題就是它的主機的它的來源還有相關的證明文件好不好當初是因為輸出許可的問題我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機所以才會用數量比較多的功率比較小的主機"},{"start":814.753,"end":818.215,"text":"因為你是後來接的在你前面已經換過兩個我們現在要的只是請部長海軍參謀長還有台船董事長台船相關的單位你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件就是說這個主機它就是潛艦要用的而不是卡車也不是其他的戰車並聯的這樣的裝置好不好什麼時候可以提供給我們"},{"start":845.181,"end":856.357,"text":"我們回去準備一下大概多久一個時間點好不好大概一兩週左右好那就一週好不好因為你只是提供資料而已謝謝好謝謝馬偉雲的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":134,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時27分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長、海軍參謀長、台船董事長。"],["主席：謝謝，部長、海軍參謀長、台船董事長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，我們今天為什麼特別還要再安排一次潛艦進度的公開報告，很重要的是，其實我們這一艘潛艦已經做好了，現在已經要做測試的階段，也受到非常多國人的關注，而且這也牽涉到我們未來第二到第八艘後續艦需要動用到的預算，所以我們其實希望可以在公開的部分對國人還有對立法院說明清楚，這樣大家才有辦法審。","我想提供一個相關資料，在這裡我想要請教海軍參謀長，這一支光電潛望鏡什麼時候才到的？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，光電潛望鏡……"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候到的？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：其實之前就到了。"],["馬委員文君：之前什麼時候？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：時間的部分，我現在手上資料要另外再去整理，它已經到了，因為到料之後，它中間有一個模組，經過測試是有一些……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，參謀長，過去我們時時……因為現在大家都說有什麼錯假訊息，或者故意打擊什麼的，其實現在到了這個階段，已經沒有什麼打擊，因為你通通做好了嘛！其實暴露消息最多的是誰？是我們的海軍前顧問，暴露消息最多的是誰？台船公司還有國防部。其實有些訊息都是從我們這邊講出來的，如果有錯假訊息最多的會是誰？這幾年其實宣布最多的，包括最近所有的電力系統或者有什麼樣的整合系統沒有辦法通過測試，只有一個人知道，這很特別，因為在這個過程當中，連國防部長都是兩個禮拜，或者他只知道進度，總統也都是接受這樣子的報告。","這幾年來我們時時提醒的都是這些，可是我們看到這個桅杆是今年才來的，本來應該1月要來，後來還延後了4個月，可是我們看一下這個週刊，那時候趙天麟委員特別對週刊說：我們到海昌廠的時候，我們看到了潛望鏡、魚雷管，要看什麼軍方都給我們看。這就是我們用機密考察或者機密報告所衍生的問題，當時沸沸揚揚，拿來做政治操作，那時候潛望鏡根本沒有來，給我們看了什麼東西？可是他居然可以公開對媒體還有對週刊這樣子說謊，到底誰在認知作戰？到底誰在放錯假訊息？這個要不要查？剛剛你們說要查，要不要查？這是第一點。我們今天安排公開預算是因為都已經做好了，你也不會受到干擾，來自於哪裡，清清楚楚，這是第一點。","另外，我們進度比較慢，現在還有測試的問題，這我們尊重專業，我們也希望大家按部就班，也提到安全跟它的戰力其實是我們最重要的考量。今天你如果是為了滿足某些人好大喜功也好，或者滿足他的歷史定位也好，或者滿足他可以做到這樣子的程度，那一點意義都沒有，因為他花的是人民的納稅錢。如果你今天要造遊艇，你自己花錢那當然沒問題，可是你要造的是武器裝備，而且牽涉到所有海軍官兵的生命安危，所以我們要求安全。","我想在這裡先請教一下，這個對台船有沒有罰則？剛剛有特別提到我們現在好像講得很樂觀，我們在過去幾年都講得非常樂觀，我們在提醒的當下反而會被攻擊說我們在打擊，現在才說其他國家都有它的困難點，這個我們之前就認同了。我想在這裡先請教部長，因為部長是法律人出身的，就這個部分，依我們跟台船的合約，如果11月它沒有辦法依約交件的話，它會受到多少的罰款？"],["顧部長立雄：每日計罰，我的理解應該大概是19萬。"],["馬委員文君：有上限嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是……我的了解是，合約沒有上限的規範，是不是請採購室再說明一下？"],["馬委員文君：所以就一直罰？"],["趙主任亞平：向委員報告，有上限，就是建造款的20%。"],["馬委員文君：20%是多少？"],["趙主任亞平：建造款193億的20%，差不多將近40億。"],["馬委員文君：將近40億？"],["趙主任亞平：是的。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們當初簽約的內容就是這樣？"],["趙主任亞平：是的、是的。"],["馬委員文君：這個部分對我們後續有沒有影響，我覺得可能要看整個合約，因為我看國防部簽訂的合約，其實很多都有很大的問題，我們也希望台船……因為他們也是第一次做，怎麼樣把它做好，可是不要欺騙國人，因為我們現在再回過頭來看，我們每一次都說有工檢，有沒有？都是定時召開工檢會，對不對？那時候都跟我們說完全沒有問題、完全按照進度，對不對？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：跟委員報告，整個國造潛艦分成兩個部分，建造跟測試，我們的建造是按節點，現在是因為測試的部分，的確有一些裝備在測試的時候，因為我們有驗收的責任，每發現問題衍生一些工程問題都要克服，所以我們建造的時間節點沒有問題，現在是測試的確需要多一點時間來做一些處理……"],["馬委員文君：好，我們過去工檢的過程當中，其實是沒有問題的。在這我有幾個問題，希望部長、海軍參謀長，還有海軍或者相關的單位包括台船，你們可以表示，因為我們沒有要求你們在這裡說明哪些裝備的來源是哪裡。其實報章雜誌報導很多，包括魚雷管是從韓國走私來的，我不知道這是真的還是假的，如果是真的，非常非常離譜，可是我們從來沒有看過國防部也好、台船也好或者相關的單位，針對這個部分去做相關的處置或調查。我想在這裡有幾個問題要請部長、參謀長還有海軍和台船做出明確的報告。譬如說，像我們所有的裝備，過去你們主次裝備都說已經全數獲得輸出許可，而且還有備援，就是至少都有3個來源以上，這是黃曙光前召集人講的。我想要請教我們所有的裝備是不是都具備原廠的保證書？有沒有具備保證書？這個問題，因為我們曾經接獲檢舉，有一些內部的人士說有些東西來源不明，就是它沒有合格的保證書，所以裝備到的時候就要求相關承辦人員去簽收，很多人根本不敢接下這個責任，因此有很多人離職了，這是第一點。你要回答？"],["顧主任志中：跟委員報告，所有的裝備到接收前，在國外的原廠都會做過FAT的測試，做過測試之後才會送來我們這邊。"],["馬委員文君：它有保證書嗎？"],["顧主任志中：它會有測試的報告。"],["馬委員文君：都會有保證書嗎？我現在要求，第一點，這些裝備有沒有保證書？它進口的來源，因為它有進入我們海關的話，其實都會有相關的程序，這一點我們要求你們公開證明，所有相關主次裝備的來源，好不好？都有合格證明，你要確認有合格證明喔！"],["顧主任志中：是，它都有所謂FAT的測試報告，符合我們要求的標準。"],["馬委員文君：測試報告跟合格證明，是和原廠保證書一樣的嗎？"],["顧主任志中：它就保證書跟測試報告……"],["馬委員文君：我要的是原廠的保證書，因為你們都說符合所有輸出裝備，這個部分如果有哪些是沒有的也請提供，好不好？"],["顧主任志中：是。"],["馬委員文君：你不用告訴我們來自哪裡，可是如果是沒有的，請你們提供出來。另外，我們一直講到，這次在整個測試的過程當中，有兩項可能還要執行的部分，第一個是電力系統，第二個是整合式台（IPMS）這部分。我想要請教，因為之前也是講得沸沸揚揚，在錄音檔裡面有提到你們的主機是卡車的，在這裡要說明嗎？你們有看過嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，當初整個構型的動力都是經過選商，我們都是找具備輸出許可……"],["馬委員文君：參謀長。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["馬委員文君：潛艦的主機需要的就是潛艦的主機，要使用的就是這個，因為它有壓力、要下潛，有很多跟路上尤其是車輛是完全不一樣的。因為你已經做好了，而且已經在測試了，在這裡我們要求，請給國人一個明確的保證，這一個東西是不是潛艦用的主機？甚至我們還接到訊息，不僅是卡車，還有可能是巴士併聯的主機，這個來自於過去在巴士的引擎，經過延壽改裝以後，拿來當成潛艦用的主機。不管是卡車，或者是巴士併聯，這6個主機請明確地證實，因為你們一定可以看到來源、一定知道是什麼功能使用的主機。請告訴國人這是不是潛艦用的，因為你們當時是跟所有的……包括李宗孝當海軍司令部參謀長的時候，他告訴我們所有人包括立法院，他在動用預算的時候說：所有主次裝備也好、紅區裝備也好，所有的輸出許可都拿到了。表示你拿到的是潛艦用的主機，如果不是，到底是不是卡車的，或者甚至是巴士併聯用在戰車上面的？請你們……我們信任你們包括部長，因為部長是法律背景出身，這個部分是做什麼用的，台船更清楚，董事長要講一下嗎？是車輛用的嗎？"],["陳董事長政宏：報告委員，這個主機的廠商因為是柴油機的大廠，所以它的產品線很多，所以我想誤解是來自這裡……"],["馬委員文君：董事長，我們知道今天如果賣電池也好，任何東西也好，它就是有符合你要的3號、4號，你是要幾號，這很清楚。它賣很多種我知道，可是我要在這裡請你們做出承諾跟保證的是，這是什麼樣的主機？是潛艦用的嗎？是船艦用的嗎？"],["陳董事長政宏：對，這個是船艦用的主機，因為……"],["馬委員文君：你保證？"],["陳董事長政宏：對，因為我們……"],["馬委員文君：它會有來源嘛，對不對？"],["陳董事長政宏：對。"],["馬委員文君：你會有合格證書嘛，這個部分其實如果提供給立法院，我相信沒有問題吧？"],["陳董事長政宏：應該是沒有問題。"],["馬委員文君：沒有問題，就是主機的來源還有相關證明文件，好不好？"],["陳董事長政宏：當初因為輸出許可的問題，我們沒辦法獲得比較大功率的主機，所以才會用數量比較多、功率比較小的主機，但是它們也有在船上用過……"],["馬委員文君：董事長，沒有關係，因為你是後來接的，在你前面已經換過兩個，我們現在要的只是請部長、海軍參謀長，還有台船董事長、相關的單位，你們確認可以提出相關的證明文件，證明這個主機就是潛艦要用的，而不是卡車也不是其他戰車併聯的裝置，好不好？"],["陳董事長政宏：好。"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候可以提供給我們？"],["陳董事長政宏：我們回去準備一下。"],["馬委員文君：大概要多久，一個時間點好不好？"],["陳董事長政宏：大概一、兩週左右。"],["馬委員文君：那就一週，好不好？因為你只是提供資料而已，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝馬委員的質詢。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：接下來請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":208,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-6","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳俊宇","林楚茵","陳冠廷","賴士葆","王鴻薇","林憶君","王定宇","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-10-20"],"gazette_id":"1148501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「潛艦國造原型艦海測執行現況及因應作為」，併請台灣國際造船股\n份有限公司董事長列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148501_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欠缺的是交通網絡所以我們明明後壁蘭花園區現在已經升格為花卉產業園區所以我們再加上我們的國家圖書館南部分館"},{"start":165.683,"end":194.306,"text":"再加上岸內影視基地這是我們文化部花了重本重資然後整合所有的影視產業然後我們的機能讓他可以提升再加上我們賦予文化歷史背景的我們的鹽水老街所以如果這樣的串聯我們可以把整個我們的狼帶做一個很好的發揮"},{"start":196.027,"end":203.119,"text":"所以當時候下去的時候你們有提了一個叫我們希望有一個狼帶地方創生計畫"},{"start":205.803,"end":231.836,"text":"唐鐵五分車狼帶地方創生計畫我想問的我們從這個鹽水岸內隱私基地然後再加上鹽水車站 鹽水老街新宜區的西太子宮站東太子宮站 縣園台 新營糖廠天河湖 後壁我們的蘭花園區等等我想問的我們現在進度如何"},{"start":233.054,"end":255.169,"text":"跟委員報告就是說就有如我剛剛的那一個簡報提到就是說我們整個在國家的發展過程當中我們會依照六大區域產業生活圈去發展但在發展的這些區域的過程當中也會有一些配套措施像剛剛委員講的那個就是裡面的配套措施那進度呢我想了解的是進度會跟著那個地方創生上來"},{"start":256.69,"end":285.395,"text":"那基本上就是說本會已經在6月13號邀集台南市政府以及台塘公司等單位有開會演商那結論是請台南市政府當作一個提案的單位然後研提地方創生計畫那後續我們也會會循著這個地方創生的計畫那6月18到現在呢6月18到現在動到什麼程度我知道台塘他們已經有開第四次的專案會議他們有在動"},{"start":286.755,"end":311.613,"text":"那請問提案單位有沒有動提案單位裡面還在做內部審核在做內部審核對 我們現在在等他有說他什麼時候要提嗎我們現在好像沒有追一下好嗎好 可以啊你正式發文給他嘛好 好 是是是好 表示我們中央全力支援唐鐵五分車廊帶的地方創生嘛這一條真的很美我這樣"},{"start":313.232,"end":339.449,"text":"5歲以前都大新娘我們每一次經過新營就是看著五分那車那這五分那車是一個歷史一個文化所以拜託主委 正式發文給市政府請他們看要協調到什麼程度總是先提案吧我們狼帶地方創生已經都幫他想好了就請他提案 要不然還要提案"},{"start":340.28,"end":358.218,"text":"他可能內部有一些在協調但我們會發函給台南市政府拜託總是表達了我們國發會我們希望在我們的企業有這條長鐵五分車人帶地方創生就像你講的配套"},{"start":359.178,"end":387.438,"text":"好配套所以这个再拜托我也会请我们同仁假如台南市政府有一些需要我们帮忙的话我们会提供协助再拜托我知道台党已经有开了第四次的专案会议国发会在6月18号也开了会议那现在已经全责划分就是由地方政府台南市政府来做提案单位针对塘铁五分车廊带地方创生那么我们就要进度6月18号到现在多久了"},{"start":387.938,"end":415.941,"text":"好幾個月囉再拜託那再來就是我們對於南科四期我想主委我跟你交換過意見因為國發會是know-how所以最後還是要有你們核定那我要拜託這是我們來自地方的聲音我們希望他們的建言大規人暨沙倫科學城促進會這是他們的聲音他希望說產業政策由政府主導"},{"start":416.821,"end":439.073,"text":"社區守護生活價值這很重要然後我們生態要共生保育跟富裕方案要避免陷入開發的對立再來高鐵特定區的招商策略要讓產業跟住商還有住宅我們有形成良性的循環"},{"start":440.461,"end":455.347,"text":"然後我們的共同願景就是要打造沙崙科學城跟高鐵新都心所以我們希望在我們的南科四期的部分要一起跟二期一起核定"},{"start":456.905,"end":478.841,"text":"一起核定雖然二期還沒有可是你一起核定那個計畫核定之後我們還要配合地方政府的區域規劃都市變更這個基本上要一步一步但是如果我們沒有將南科四期其中的一期跟二期一次核定"},{"start":480.305,"end":502.132,"text":"我們很難做推動所以主委這個部分要記清楚因為這是地方的聲音而且重點是產業政策政府主導我們社區要做成共融的狀態也就是如何附加的新都心可以展開這是地方的期待好不好好"},{"start":503.132,"end":523.732,"text":"我們會跟國科會協商一下看怎麼樣讓這個進度進行得快一點拜託 你因為國發會是know-how基本上所有的資料還是要彙整到你這裡所以我覺得說那個政策的主導性很重要拜託我們的主委再來就是我們這個花卉創新產業園區這個部分"},{"start":529.783,"end":550.808,"text":"這個主委我們從當時候後壁蘭花園區的掛牌農業部正式進駐一路到現在我們114年9月1號我們的花卉產業園區再一次正式掛牌我們變成市級單位過去我們是曖昧不明"},{"start":551.508,"end":573.827,"text":"我委在我們農業部某一個市級單位之下我敢以作為本務生現在好不容易在114年因為我們努力了很久這三年多來我們一直期待我們的組織變更我們要提升我們的位階我們自己要有預算好 終於我們有自己的預算了這一次有編了"},{"start":574.488,"end":598.455,"text":"好 但是我們現在的是公建計畫公建計畫要由我們國發會來做審查而且案子都已經送到我們國發會了70.52億 雖然他是114年到121年可是我們要核定啊沒有核定我們不能編經費啊 對不對那什麼時候要核定 現在已經到國發會了"},{"start":599.415,"end":610.783,"text":"我們會已經在10月14號已經函附行政院那行政院基本上也已經同意農業部成立農業部花卉創新園區的研究發展重心所以OK了"},{"start":611.943,"end":638.651,"text":"OK了1月14号就OK了这个公建计划基本上70.52亿114年到121年OK没有问题了我们已经送到院了送到院了就等院核定你们没有写意见吧都没有吗我没有你们是有写意见啊但是有一些意见还是要提醒是啊可是这些意见会不会影响到我们的期程呢"},{"start":639.351,"end":654.381,"text":"對但還是一樣就是行政院和大規模大範圍大方向是沒有問題的只是有些小提醒所以只要行政院和了就沒問題了不用再來來去去了應該是不用了"},{"start":655.402,"end":676.241,"text":"不用了吧就是行政院合定了嘛你們的意見只是一個小建議而已不會影響整個公建計畫所以我們期待行政院趕快因為10月14號我們已經送出我們國發會了然後呢行政院等待他合定我們就可以趕快去編列預算謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":58,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時20分）謝謝召委，請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，我想你剛上任，我必須要跟你討論三個我一直在追蹤而且追蹤很久的部分。我們一直在講，天上不會掉下禮物，一定是要循序漸進、一步一步，然後怎麼看到成果、怎麼看到發展。所以，我跟主委交換一下意見，國發會其實在當時我們有邀相關單位到地方去會勘，也就是在糖鐵的部分，如何連接後壁蘭花園區，再到新營糖廠、你們的腹地，加上國家圖書館南部分館，再加上岸內影視基地還有鹽水老街。這個串聯可以說，依照我們去現場看的時候，這一個區段是最容易能夠恢復糖鐵五分車過去的記憶，它所必須解決的問題最小，而且能夠突破的是有空間的，所以我覺得，當我們在走讀的時候，在做所謂糖鐵走讀文化的時候，其實更應該有這樣一個交通網絡的串聯。我們溪北地方欠缺的是交通網絡，後壁蘭花園區現在已經升格為花卉產業園區，加上國家圖書館南部分館，再加上岸內影視基地，這是文化部花了重本、重資，整合所有的影視產業讓機能可以提升，再加上我們賦予文化歷史背景的鹽水老街，還有月津港，如果以這樣的串聯，我們可以把整個廊帶做一個很好的發揮，所以當時下去的時候，你們提了一個就是我們希望有一個廊帶地方創生計畫──「糖鐵五分車廊帶地方創生計畫」。","我想問的是，從鹽水岸內影視基地，再加上鹽水車站、鹽水老街、新營區的西太子宮站、東太子宮站、卸鹽台、新營糖廠、天鵝湖、後壁的蘭花園區等等，我想問現在進度如何？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，如我剛剛的簡報提到，整個國家的發展過程當中，我們會依照六大區域產業生活圈去發展，但在發展這些區域的過程當中，也會有一些配套措施，像剛剛委員講的就是裡面的配套措施……"],["陳委員亭妃：是。那進度呢？我想了解的是進度會啊！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：配套措施會跟著地方創生上來，基本上，本會已經在6月13號邀集臺南市政府以及台糖公司等單位開會研商，結論是請臺南市政府當作一個提案的單位，研提地方創生計畫，後續我們會循著地方創生的計畫辦理。"],["陳委員亭妃：那6月18到現在呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：6月18到現在……"],["陳委員亭妃：動到什麼程度？我知道台糖他們已經有開第四次的專案會議，他們有在動，那請問提案單位有沒有動？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：提案單位裡面還在做內部審核，所以我們在等提案。"],["陳委員亭妃：在做內部審核，他有說他什麼時候要提嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們現在好像沒有……"],["陳委員亭妃：追一下好嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好，可以啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：你正式發文給他嘛！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好、好，是、是、是、是。"],["陳委員亭妃：表示中央全力支援糖鐵五分車廊帶的地方創生嘛！這一條真的很美！我小時候5歲以前都住新營，每一次經過新營就是看到五分車，這五分車是一個歷史、是一個文化，所以拜託主委正式發文給市政府。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會，好、好。"],["陳委員亭妃：請他們看要協調到什麼程度。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，我也會請同仁……"],["陳委員亭妃：總是先提案吧？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對、對、對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們廊帶地方創生，已經都幫他想好了，就請他提案，他又不提案。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：他可能內部有一些在協調，但我們會發函給臺南市政府請他這個部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：拜託！總是表達國發會希望在溪北有這條糖鐵五分車廊帶地方創生，就像你講的配套。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對、對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這個再拜託。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對、對、對，我也會請同仁……就是說假如臺南市政府有一些需要幫忙的話，我們會提供協助。"],["陳委員亭妃：再拜託！我知道台糖已經開了第四次的專案會議，國發會在6月18號也開了會議，現在已經權責劃分就是由地方政府，即臺南市政府來作提案單位，針對糖鐵五分車廊帶地方創生，我們要進度，6月18到現在多久了？好幾個月了，再拜託！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是、是、是。"],["陳委員亭妃：再來，對於南科四期，主委，我跟你交換過意見，因為國發會是know 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