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首先我們請蔡其昌委員及侯孟凱委員請準備"},{"start":1846.477,"end":1873.352,"text":"謝謝主席請卓院長跟運動部麻煩請卓院長交通部長備詢運動部運動部長備詢蔡委員好院長早安部長早安這個部長剛上任幾天了"},{"start":1875.182,"end":1899.09,"text":"部長上任幾天了一個月多一點感覺怎麼樣蠻刺激的拿奧運的金牌比較容易還是當運動部長比較容易都不容易如果硬要比較出一個你喜歡哪一個我都蠻喜歡挑戰的那本席就給你一些挑戰"},{"start":1902.485,"end":1922.014,"text":"上一次的總質詢本席在這裡因為那時候運動部還沒有成立所以當時的教育部跟卓院長都有承諾一些事項但因為有一個很大的變化這個變化就是財政收支法案通過讓中央補助地方政府興建體育設施的能量大減"},{"start":1923.936,"end":1952.808,"text":"院長你記得我們在談過我們的優化全民運動與賽會環境計畫這是113年到116年的計畫這個計畫總共經費是64億其中興建自由車場當時的體育署規劃是高雄台南跟台中三個場館要興建計畫上也寫三案這個三案當時的預算是不足的"},{"start":1953.482,"end":1978.539,"text":"所以就繼續進行溝通協調部長你接手之後這三個案子要不要繼續做這部分跟委員您報告我們認為現行在國際賽事是250的賽道在台灣是330的賽道不合國際標準所以我們希望運動部站在保護運動員的所有權益所以我們希望說來爭取你提願 院長"},{"start":1981.355,"end":2006.135,"text":"運動部有提願因為希望行政院來協助部長這三個案子要不要繼續來推動如果運動部現在的考量能夠跟國際接軌這對我們未來的選手絕對是一種正面的一個幫助所以在這個情況底下我們願意在財政排除各種困難底下極力的全力的來協助部長為什麼我持續追問這個案子是因為"},{"start":2007.222,"end":2030.494,"text":"今年我在預算上看不到預算的呈現上面我們要繼續推動這三個自行車廠的案子所以我才本席還利用今天特別來問因為馬上預算已經送到立法院來了明年如果通過年底通過明年就要實施了但這三個案子本席並沒有看到他的預算所以本席才會今天來請教院長是不是明年我們還有其他"},{"start":2031.454,"end":2059.935,"text":"預算可能不是用這個預算科目來支出的情況底下明年就會開始推動包括先來發包規劃設計我們在優化全民運動賽會會場這個項目底下有變的預算這個會向下有變的預算那些有包括台中是清水現在清水在本席的故鄉有提出那應該會納入相關如果沒有的話我看運動部有沒有其他的預算可以來支援"},{"start":2062.105,"end":2082.026,"text":"那個院長本席給你建議啦三個案子一定要推就如同部長所講的這個沒有辦法跟國際接軌而且體育署規劃那麼久三個地點都是地方政府同意支持要做的但因為收支方法的改變所以你們的重點在於跟地方政府溝通那支付的比例是什麼"},{"start":2083.035,"end":2091.629,"text":"行政院不可以改變態度一定要三個案子都要做因為如同部長講很重要國家在推動運動場館的改善的決心沒有改變但"},{"start":2093.253,"end":2113.533,"text":"你把中央的錢都拿光了那當然我重新跟你談說我中央願意出那我有多少錢那希望地方政府負擔多少這個應該要朝向這樣方向來做中央絕對不可以退縮啦對我們會按照財政的極致來但是中央還是願意全力負擔大眼那個部長院長這是中央的態度我們支持體育"},{"start":2116.119,"end":2130.298,"text":"運動部成立第一件案子就先把自行車車管不做了這怎麼自行車廠不做了這不是笑話嗎第二個那個棒球的部分棒球場館的部分上一次我們也謝謝院長支持的這個"},{"start":2133.952,"end":2161.031,"text":"組一軍的場館支持的3億啦其實這場館說一軍其實就是支持地方政府啦因為這些場館都是地方政府的另外呢我們其他的這個棒球的場館總共加起來我們支持的9個場館也就是我們支持的9個地方政府去修繕這個場館那本席看到這個案子預算也沒有增加但是呢上一次我也跟"},{"start":2161.707,"end":2168.435,"text":"院長報告過這個澄清湖球場那個LED的螢幕不但小而且幾乎是看不到了"},{"start":2170.493,"end":2193.54,"text":"這個其實是很荒謬台灣是科技大廠我們的面板實在是製造能力全世界有名的但我們自己的運動場館一個LED的螢幕我先不講大小它已經夠小了而且還已經完全衰退看不到內紋了所以上次我有跟院長提希望來支持高雄地方政府來把這個LED場館的面板把它改過"},{"start":2195.563,"end":2221.848,"text":"部長上任之後 院長這應該沒有改變吧不會改變 因為一個場館如果有一個大的螢幕啊那看起來就是蠻科技感這個也是啦 不分藍綠這也是地方政府要部分負擔嘛這不是中央 場館是地方政府的嘛但是方向一定要做好不好 這個不要改變要請部長來研究看看如何來緊述協助 澄清五方九黨改善對 這是挑戰嘛 就是這些問題你都要去溝通協調 才能夠落實"},{"start":2222.748,"end":2230.264,"text":"本席在上一次總質詢跟院長達成的共識第三個就是棒球博物館"},{"start":2232.293,"end":2256.319,"text":"我想部長你也很支持我知道你私下有告訴我你也很支持但是支持一定要有方向你一定要有態度而且要有步驟什麼時候要開始所以今年的預算我一樣看不到院長 部長今年的預算裡面是不是可以開始著手有初步的計畫譬如說開始找地開始要進行相關的可行性評估有沒有這樣的計畫"},{"start":2258.373,"end":2285.5,"text":"明年開始我覺得應該是整體運動的博物館我們希望說在保留這些過去我們前輩們的所有運動前輩們的所有的文物包含我們之前去到了花蓮我們也去積極的去做文物的搜尋跟保留我覺得這對我們運動員來講都是非常有認同感的"},{"start":2286.34,"end":2313.794,"text":"認同感的當然在博物館的部分我們希望說在最近我們會積極去做來不管是找地還是這部分我們都有慢慢在規劃部長我只是提醒你這個理念跟方向我想部長你是運動員出身絕對不會有問題但現在的問題是我們面對政府預算有限運動部是賴總統重要的方向"},{"start":2314.639,"end":2340.655,"text":"那怎麼樣在部會當中跟行政院能夠爭取到你要落實你的想法跟理念的預算我想這個是一個你面對的挑戰那其次就是你要很多的場館場地甚至都在地方政府你怎麼中央跟地方做好協調能夠把事情做好我想這個就是剛剛部長講為什麼當部長不容易他的挑戰在哪裡"},{"start":2341.796,"end":2368.455,"text":"國家史上從中華民國史上我想沒有比這個階段更重視體育更重視運動也沒有像國人至少從我出生到現在國人沒有像此刻大家那麼愛運動你看那個健身房一間一間的開你看大家對於國際的賽事連過去台灣明明足球不是太熱門但你看看過去可以做的"},{"start":2369.156,"end":2384.959,"text":"現在都不可以做了過去英雄苟且的現在都不可以為什麼因為民眾太重視了所以你看這個足球協會的理事長也要下台了這在過去都不會發生的啦他就坐在那裡就不會動了但現在不一樣了"},{"start":2385.731,"end":2409.785,"text":"所以部長你的挑戰就在這裡這些都是所有的體育迷所有的國人期盼運動部能夠在這些事項過去陳柯沒有辦法改變的事項不管是國人過去不重視或者政府不重視那現在都不是了總統重視民眾更重視所以這些問題都挑戰著運動部部長你同意嗎"},{"start":2410.851,"end":2425.077,"text":"我認為民眾參與運動的部分風氣越來越好我們當然希望說有更多的民眾來參與我們運動讓更多人看見運動明年就三件事情你一定要記住本席就是你沒有監督我就是繼續問"},{"start":2426.477,"end":2442.903,"text":"第一個就是棒球博物館第二個就是運動場館的設施改的興建特別是棒球場館第三個就是自由車場好不好這三個部長你要記住下次見面還是這三個題目如果你沒有進度的話我還是這三個題目"},{"start":2444.495,"end":2459.609,"text":"好 謝謝委員這個場面非常難得一位是帶領國家棒球得到世界金牌的一個是兩度奧運金牌的部長在這裡對話表示我國的棒球政策從這裡開始應該要有更強力的支持政府一定會來支持"},{"start":2460.209,"end":2482.264,"text":"年輕朋友跟國人最能夠團結一致的運動賽事我們全力把它推動所以場地的設備一定要先把它健全起來不然運動部會做到謝謝院長今天因為是用立委的身分所以李部長一定感受到本席比較嚴厲平常當會長的時候我都在拜託你的今天角色不一樣我必須要扮演好監督你們的角色"},{"start":2483.044,"end":2488.518,"text":"那接下來呢 部長請回我請那個金管會跟經濟部麻煩請金管會經濟部長備詢"},{"start":2495.595,"end":2522.6,"text":"院長這個關稅的協議跟美方的這個談判我們還持續在進行當中政府院長率領的談判團隊還一直跟美方保持很積極的正面的接觸那整個景氣產業這個產業在國際上發展的這種集中度非常的高就像全球現在半導體跟AI非常的這個"},{"start":2524.695,"end":2545.705,"text":"成長力道非常強大台灣其實反映到台灣也可以明顯發現所以我們有整個產業發展趨勢沒有辦法均衡的問題再加上美中貿易談判的問題讓我們台中我們的工具機產業跟金屬加工的這些製造業面臨很大的挑戰"},{"start":2546.565,"end":2570.143,"text":"那我也看了所有的資料我們也很支持包括這些相關的政策包括這些相關的法規甚至剛剛通過的這個5700億的這個預算本席都非常支持但是這個支持我想主委跟部長都有提出一些方法但是這個落實到基層特別是落實到我們"},{"start":2571.464,"end":2595.956,"text":"這個台中最多的微型企業他可能員工人數十人上下十幾個甚至更小的他們會面臨到很多訊息的不對等啦譬如說我知道經濟部廣布長你們有成立馬上辦中心對不對馬上辦中心很重要一項業務就是協調銀行不可以雨天收傘是不是"},{"start":2596.857,"end":2625.402,"text":"那現在到底有多少雨天被收傘打電話到馬上辦中心說他被雨天收傘從成立到現在或者說從美中四月份到現在沒有 我們是一再的跟銀行事實上銀行公會一再講就是說基本上他如果繳息正常就待展延的話是可以的自動就會展延六個月到一年所以基本上他是不會收傘"},{"start":2626.387,"end":2645.991,"text":"我知道政策不會收散就像很多我們在規定我們在做相關住宅貸款的時候我們也要求過去已經開始房子已經買到的不可以一定要持續給他貸還是很多這種案子所以我在談的其實不是政策不對也不是我們政府不關心"},{"start":2646.491,"end":2668.488,"text":"而是政策落實到中小企業裡面是不是中小企業他知道這個訊息第二個有沒有這樣的還是持續因為本席作為民意代表我在民間還是多多少少會遇到他很擔心他被雨天收散因為銀行已經找他要談縮減他的額度甚至就有貸款要還清的時候我們現在規定也可以展延半年"},{"start":2669.568,"end":2691.815,"text":"那這些到底你們透過馬上辦中心或者透過銀行端兩邊你們都應該去徹底的去了解是不是有這樣的案例案例怎麼處理我們來了解可以嗎可以做到嗎所以本席剛剛才問你們說你們成立馬上辦中心一定如果他真的被收散他就問嘛他就會打電話來這個才是我們對政策落實到特別是微型企業"},{"start":2692.736,"end":2708.617,"text":"上市公司上市公司你都不用擔心他們的資源很多但我們這種台中這種小型微型的企業這個才是大家會覺得為什麼他們倒是覺得政府的政策照顧不到他們那就是因為這個中間的落差沒有辦法把它填補"},{"start":2709.366,"end":2732.837,"text":"沒有填補的結果他就永遠感受不到政策的善意跟預算的善意這個兩位可以做得到沒問題可以給本席一個報告到底你們的平台上面有多少這種案例每一個案例怎麼被對待跟處理本席希望了解這樣好不好這個我一定要代表我們中小企業在這個質詢台上來替他們講話"},{"start":2734.587,"end":2758.456,"text":"有一些個案可能是因為其他的因素那我希望說我們在銀行端不管是公股的還是民間銀行這個時間點能夠盡量的放寬採取信任長期合作的方式來協助業者這個我一直要求我們的如果這些個案大家不明就理他永遠都在談政府預算沒有到位政策沒有到位就是因為那幾個個案"},{"start":2759.867,"end":2768.953,"text":"所以我本席為什麼會要求兩位部長跟 要追蹤到那個個案這樣好不好最後一個小問題 院長那個11月發一萬塊時間定了沒有我們盡快該..."},{"start":2787.537,"end":2791.082,"text":"好 謝謝蔡其桑委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝好 接下來我們請洪孟凱委員質詢 陳素月委員請準備"},{"start":2820.134,"end":2828,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請卓榮泰院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢另外今天問到的相關議題部會首長該上來就請上來 謝謝"},{"start":2836.465,"end":2858.538,"text":"紅委員好 院長早 院長我們今天一年兩次的總諮詢特別跟您就教非常多的國家大事議題我們也希望台灣能夠更好 中華民國能夠更強所以在今年的10月10號國慶大典裡面看到賴總統跟我們國慶籌辦委員會的主席韓院長也都分別有做相關的支持"},{"start":2859.238,"end":2881.848,"text":"我們不希望報喜不報憂我們當然希望台灣越來越好所以韓院長其實在這個國慶大典講話的時候有講出影響台灣未來的三座隱形的映射壺不能台海有戰爭不能放任政黨無死線的惡鬥以及希望對美關稅談判順利院長你認同嗎"},{"start":2883.363,"end":2905.318,"text":"這個都是我們日常的工作也是 所以說您認同嗎韓院長這樣子講有沒有惡意韓院長以大會主席的身份在大會的現場所講的話就是我們在現場聽到大會主席整個籌備以及對大會的期許當然有對政府的期許都聽到了立法院院長是最高的民意殿堂的首長"},{"start":2906.078,"end":2929.493,"text":"而他代表2350萬人來對政府提出建言也希望中華民國生日許下三個願望往前走說實在話套一句現在網路流行的方向就是希望讓卓院長領導的團隊施政起來能夠匆匆忙忙游刃有餘嗎不要遇到問題的時候才匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬但一樣啊"},{"start":2931.727,"end":2948.465,"text":"在這一次講完之後綠營居然出征說唱衰還說家醜外揚院長是事實嗎你的主體叫綠營這個你要去借鏡他到底是哪一方來的主體所以你現在不認為你是綠營的一份子我們是中華民國行政院"},{"start":2949.81,"end":2979.15,"text":"院長有這樣的一個行政中立就好因為本席認為這是什麼樣的威權心態如果說連善良的正向的正面的建言都不能提的話那國家不會進步來院長我們就繼續來討論三個議題第一我們希望政黨不要無限的惡鬥所以很重要一個部分中央地方要一條心請教一下揮打現在是一個國際大家都重視的高科技公司"},{"start":2979.892,"end":3002.188,"text":"他選定 沒有錯 台北市政府的兩塊地但實際上我們中央部會不管經濟部 不管商務部 共同的來協助因為重點只有一個就是讓輝達留在台灣不管留在哪一個縣市留在台灣就是我們的主體院長 現在有一些紛紛擾擾請教有沒有信心輝達一定留在台灣"},{"start":3002.998,"end":3032.681,"text":"第一個介紹法律問題我覺得這個法律問題不難解決所以大家要一起來解決嘛第二個是我們的經濟發展問題就是經濟發展 高科技的發展我們一定要把像輝達這種國際性大廠留在台灣這是我們共同的共識第三個在政治上如果台北市政府需要中央政府如何的協助我們已經協助有任何需要我們可以再跟台北市政府來合作如果說台北市留不住其他地方願意也可能留住的話我們也願意來促成"},{"start":3032.91,"end":3060.282,"text":"我們有看到現在也有提供松南跟林口兩塊地一個在台北一個在新北也剛好是本席的選區不過本席開宗明義就強調重點是留在台灣只要留在台灣不管是台北新北我們都雙手贊成樂觀其成所以我再強調一次院長有沒有信心協助台北市因為現在確實有紛紛擾擾啊而且看到的是現在某家企業他占住這個土地他感覺是在綁架全國人民啊"},{"start":3060.933,"end":3089.679,"text":"因為全國人民期待輝達要留在台灣所以說他就刻意要講是說想要繞過台北市政府要跟輝達直接談我們公有地可以這樣私相授受嗎那屬於中央政府包括內政部該協助核定的一些地上權移轉的問題我們都已經核定了我剛剛說過如果還需要做一些工作讓留在台北中央需要做也合法可以做我們願意做如果台北市沒有辦法願意到其他各縣市我們願意協助但這個又要看"},{"start":3091.119,"end":3117.247,"text":"這個輝達他本身在這裡設廠投資的意願所以不能讓他離開嘛絕對不能讓他離開本席現在講的重點在於是說輝達有輝達的想法但是既然輝達已經開眾民意表達說他是要來台灣留在台北市不只是台北市有光台灣也有光 卓內閣團隊也有光因為T17 18當然他們還在溝通協調但是輝達他還是要讓經濟部說"},{"start":3118.847,"end":3145.093,"text":"我只問一句話啦卓院長有信心讓輝達留在台灣你會做到百分之百使命必達我們是花最大的決心跟力道希望他留下來所以如果說真的輝達離開的話這就不是只有地方政府的責任中央地方共同承擔可以嗎但是台北市政府必須先把他的法律問題先處理好我覺得這個不難處理"},{"start":3147.824,"end":3161.565,"text":"來中央地方共同解決再來第二個部分好的事情我們一起來追求我們上禮拜看到新加坡他研議要讓詐騙犯罪使用鞭刑"},{"start":3163.052,"end":3190.755,"text":"我們過去在這邊也有專案報告我們也討論詐騙討論非常多我們也一直強調是說詐騙惡可惡至極應該嚴刑峻罰新加坡願意往前邁進這一步考慮這樣的一個事情那我知道因為現在台灣沒有邊行這樣的一個刑責那可是國人其實普遍對這個議題是非常有感的那我現在具體的請教院長您怎麼看"},{"start":3192.605,"end":3200.118,"text":"台灣有沒有資格有沒有權利或說有沒有方法能夠來研究別的國家已經在做的部分我們來思考怎麼樣來嚇阻詐騙不讓詐騙氾濫"},{"start":3204.849,"end":3232.561,"text":"這樣邊形的說法我相信在民間是有一些支持的聲音但是更有一些人權的討論我們一直從學校 校園都已經討論誰的人權犯罪者的人權是 是有一些討論犯罪者的人權你現在是要保護犯罪者的人權不是 我說民間有一些團體是在討論這個沒有錯吧我知道是有人支持的但是我們想的做法是我們如何從速審速決而且能夠合理的刑度來讓這些"},{"start":3234.158,"end":3257.478,"text":"犯罪者能夠受到社會的感化現在不是這樣做嗎現在不是就是速審速決讓犯罪者要感化但是一樣就是我們詐騙持續猖獗跟委員報告我現在先請教院長院長現在就是這樣所以我們今年度才會有專案報告新加坡今年我給院長一個數字新加坡今年上半年度被詐騙是107億台幣"},{"start":3260.319,"end":3279.276,"text":"反觀台灣今年上半年被詐騙的數字是480億台幣是新加坡的四倍之不多如果新加坡被詐騙只有台灣的四分之一都選擇考慮用這樣子嚴刑峻法來去嚇阻詐騙那台灣憑什麼我們沒有更積極的作為"},{"start":3280.419,"end":3306.397,"text":"跟委員報告這個事實上我們非常重視這一種的打詐的效用所以我們詐偽條例以後我們有研議在修更重的一個處罰市長你越講話會越失分啦我是希望院長能夠來正視這問題院長我直接我沒有說現在一定因為現在國情有不同討論有不同但是我具體提兩個建議您先聽聽看能做就說能做不能做就說不能做第一"},{"start":3307.518,"end":3325.817,"text":"請法務部研究把邊形納入台灣的中華民國憲法並且研究可行性討論相關執行的費用可能受罰的範圍以及利弊得失來做未來行政院跟立法院立法的參考"},{"start":3327.746,"end":3344.066,"text":"請外交部跟駐新加坡辦事處來跟新加坡政府了解他們現在已經在推動的邊形包含什麼樣的方向什麼樣的一個目的以及推行的成效可能面對的問題還有因應之道"},{"start":3345.351,"end":3361.722,"text":"綜合兩個地方判斷他三之十可以公錯我們可以請法務部來做可行性評估就如同所有的重大建設不是一下子馬上就編預算做執行啊而是我們先做可行性評估但可行性評估半年裡面提出來我們來針對這個議題共同來討論行不行委員剛剛說要"},{"start":3367.987,"end":3386.184,"text":"加入到憲法 那這個難度不大那這個是委員建議我們聽到了我想請法務部下巴先了解一下我們適不適合在這個時候做可行性評估 這個要先做所以我現在要做可行性評估的可行性評估時間暫停 那麼外交部長要不要備選"},{"start":3390.137,"end":3409.906,"text":"請外交部長好不好剛有提到外交部這是第一個另外就是現在在世界院長我確認一下詐騙已經猖獗那麼多每天有一億多兩億的詐騙現在國人生物痛絕然後你跟我講說你要做可行性評估的可行性評估我們在做其他的方面都有在做努力"},{"start":3411.107,"end":3430.738,"text":"就是現在其他方面都有在努力但是詐騙還是那麼猖獗所以我們才想請教說我們有沒有更積極的做法我相信邊形這個制度並不是現在世界上大多數國家所有的或許有一部分國家是有那我們是不是適合在這個時候來討論邊形不適合的理由是什麼"},{"start":3431.693,"end":3445.04,"text":"社會上還有一些討論對立的意見如果說現在80% 90%的人看到都是認為說我們需要用更強硬的態度詐騙生物痛覺本席也認同在場吳宗憲委員也在啊"},{"start":3445.933,"end":3471.089,"text":"法律是對好人越好對壞人越壞我們就是要保護好人是就是保護好人所以嚴刑峻法並不是違反人權嚴刑峻法就是保護好人而且我們對犯罪者希望的是他經過一定的行動之後他不要再犯那是不是邊刑就會不要再犯邊刑完之後也可以不要再犯邊刑完之後讓他通知到說他更不要犯請法務部先去了解一下要不要做這個可行性兵覆"},{"start":3472.591,"end":3494.433,"text":"法務部還要了解要不要做這個可行性評估所以這就是可行性評估之前的可行性評估先了解一下民意現在到底對這樣的支持來研究這個制度目前民意的制度你不覺得你現在是在搪塞國人嗎也是在搪塞本席我們是很務實在做我們很希望是說了解外交部那外交部能不能做剛剛講的這部分"},{"start":3495.738,"end":3514.766,"text":"這不屬於外交部的主管業務請外交部跟新加坡政府了解一下說你們做的怎麼樣好不好有什麼樣的問題我們的總統院長講說用邊形可能會違反人權你們有沒有遇到這樣的困難這樣不行那外交部說不是他很責任"},{"start":3516.987,"end":3532.482,"text":"如果在這裡跟委員討論兩公約那是另外一個層次我討論的是我們民間對邊形我知道有人在討論有人是贊成支持的就是因為本席上禮拜看到我不是無敵放矢"},{"start":3533.243,"end":3549.71,"text":"是本期是上禮拜看到新加坡已經要把納入詐騙變成邊形的一環我相信新加坡之前也做過很多討論跟功課也因此本期才會強調是說我們是不是透過外交管道來跟新加坡政府瞭解你們過去討論的狀況面臨到問題以及你們怎麼說服國人"},{"start":3554.653,"end":3569.109,"text":"那另外我們內部自己研究可行性評估推動會遭遇到哪些困難大家普遍的問題以及我們要所用的費用還有如果說真的實施之後會不會怕做個民調吧"},{"start":3570.05,"end":3587.595,"text":"如果跟外交的管道我倒不如由法务部从检察官去做一些司法的协力那这个边形制度在新加坡实施之后他这一再犯是不是完全的降低本席也建议我们的韩院长说是不是我们下一次的国会外交可以考虑前往新加坡"},{"start":3588.095,"end":3612.738,"text":"我們邀請三黨的委員也一起前往由韓院長帶團我們到新加坡也去針對他們的住宅問題他們的都市計畫以及司法打詐的部分我們來去做一個研究雙管齊下啊但你不能今天如果說你今天要這樣子跟我們講的話我沒有拒絕委員的意思所以半年內提出來台灣實施邊行來嚇阻打擊詐騙"},{"start":3614.019,"end":3632.77,"text":"甚至虐童案等部分讓這樣子的犯罪者得到應有的制裁可以吧請部長說這部分那委員寶貴的意見我想這是一個聲音的確是那個是不是行不行一句話半年因為我還有很多意見我想說我們會廣大意見我們來研究他那個可行性的做一個評估"},{"start":3633.38,"end":3651.172,"text":"所以部長是承諾囉 他要做可行性評估喔要廣納意見當然我們是要廣納意見嘛玩文字遊戲是不是沒有 這個是因為一個法案尤其這一則這個不是我們刑法規定的一個刑法的一個方式就是因為不是所以我們才要謹慎也因此我們才希望是說由行政部門這邊來做一個可行性評估"},{"start":3655.615,"end":3672.288,"text":"二次詐欺的一個猖獗我想我們很多的一個手段像我們那個詐偽條例我們現在也要再查一個修法我問你 而且那個假設你越講就四分越多我們全部都在做了我不騙你 你越講四分越多來 院長"},{"start":3673.385,"end":3698.9,"text":"成功的人找方法 失敗的人找藉口要不要做我們找好的方法來做半年內提出邊形的可行性評估行不行我們就算要直接修法也要廣聽各界的意見沒錯 因此我才會說我沒有現在立即就要去提案但是我希望是行政部門 外交部門 司法部門提出可行性評估一句話"},{"start":3700.36,"end":3728.647,"text":"他會廣大意見來進行可信性評估的研議看能不能這個時候起一個什麼樣的程序才會進入到程序裡國人都看到了這就是我們行政院卓榮泰院長以及法務部外交部的態度再來院長因為問題比較多我們下一個議題其實討論就是韓院長也在國慶大典裡面都提到了就是希望台美的關稅談判越來越好我們都希望成功因為"},{"start":3729.732,"end":3747.845,"text":"經濟好 台灣好 台灣人民才會幸福但是我們先看到有一個新聞讓我們非常遺憾大學生繳不出學費輕生那一萬八的學費一萬八千塊台幣換算美金六百元不到"},{"start":3749.008,"end":3778.194,"text":"如果說我們一位20歲的學生因為繳不出600元美金的學費而選擇輕生的話我覺得這是大家都難過的事情這件事情凸顯什麼凸顯第一這個家庭他原本就是一個比較清喊的家庭第二學校的溝通聯繫沒有做好一萬八我相信一定還有很多管道有地方政府有中央政府的補助的部分那這樣子一個狀況"},{"start":3779.656,"end":3792.383,"text":"容許發生嗎可是確實已經發生了五天前院長要不要說一下對這件事情的態度覺得很遺憾跟惋惜一個年輕的生命就這樣失去了但是政府在這個方面"},{"start":3793.311,"end":3815.159,"text":"有做到相當多的措施也許我們在宣導在學校的主動關懷如果說真的有做到相當多的措施的話就不會發生這樣的憾事因為至少我們還有學貸我們還有每年還有三萬五千元的私立學校的補助等等對親韓的我們還會加碼還會讓這樣的事情發生嗎所以可能在學校的主動關懷的還會讓這樣的事情發生嗎那這個部分請教育部來部長你"},{"start":3816.859,"end":3828.605,"text":"會後給我書面報告因為我還有另外的問題會後給我另外的書面報告因為我要完整的瞭解教育部未來可以怎麼做會後給我另外的書面報告因為我還有其他議題"},{"start":3834.588,"end":3858.738,"text":"可以 沒有問題我們事實上對這一個是跟委員的心情是一樣的提出來是說經濟很重要 莫忘世上苦人多那一樣剛剛下一位蔡時昌委員也質詢到台美關稅而造成中小企業都非常的辛苦那我們看到副總統有講了承諾在美投資不只台積電還包括整個生態系"},{"start":3859.434,"end":3878.623,"text":"但昨天經濟委員會在開會的時候國發會主委居然一問三不知國發會主委居然講的是說事前不知情不管是台積電要去美國還是生態系要去美國那國人只想問一句話生態系到底包括多大範圍"},{"start":3881.076,"end":3892.125,"text":"所謂生態系當然是包括垂直供應鏈跟他的協力廠商都是整個生態系所以是全部都要過去所以全部都要過去我們承諾美國投資全部都要過去不然怎麼會我們的副總統會講是說我們上一張簡報"},{"start":3903.188,"end":3930.849,"text":"不只台積電 我們承諾在美投資還包括整個生態系上下游 資源服務 人才培育全部都過去不是過去啦 是力量的延伸啦在那邊 本來在台灣就會立足台灣那因為 就廠商而言你到海外去全球佈局的話一定第一個要有訂單嘛第二個要可以賺錢院長 我們現在都是看到浪利的狀況但是我們台灣的談判到底我們獲得了什麼"},{"start":3931.409,"end":3944.358,"text":"到目前為止還是持續沒有辦法看到那雙方談判已經到最後是這個階段了什麼時間點談判會有一個技術性的問題有進行相當的磋商那最後要有一個總結會議總結會議預計會在什麼時候那總結會議之前還要做很多文書的交換總結會議預計會在什麼時候"},{"start":3951.779,"end":3960.835,"text":"這個我們期待是儘快的時間讓國內的產業能夠安定下來院長有沒有注意到另外一個國際上的新聞是現在有可能川習會預計在這個月月底是"},{"start":3963.28,"end":3988.655,"text":"川普跟習近平要見面美中兩大強權而川普在昨天晚上被問到說川習會的時候就已經有講到是說台灣議題會是討論之一那如果說我們現在都還持續溝通討論會不會影響在10月底的所謂的川習會我們的最終談判到底是會在10月底還是我們可以撐過10月底還是我們現在是變成是哪一個人的籌碼"},{"start":3989.696,"end":4009.914,"text":"院長 美中兩國之間有這個千絲萬縷的關係跟談判的內容那台灣跟美國同樣站在世界AI關鍵領先地位這個角色不論是台灣協助美國或是台灣一起跟美國一起再壯大起來我也相信川普總統即使跟習主席在見面的時候"},{"start":4010.815,"end":4038.994,"text":"應該站在美國台灣跟世界共同利益的角度上你覺得川普總統見面的時候會把美國跟台灣綁在一起還有世界共同利益這是你覺得你猜測你樂觀的想法還是你有什麼樣的情誌可以佐證你的說法我相信世界共同利益包括經濟的利益包括民主政治的利益包括地緣關係的利益有沒有具體在談判的過程裡面有討論到台灣如果說川普你要去跟習近平講"},{"start":4041.155,"end":4070.425,"text":"台灣的利益你要怎麼樣守護我們從歷屆這麼多時間以來多位美方的重要官員跟川普總統講話當中我們可以看到剛剛說的世界共同利益 經濟利益跟民主的利益都有在他們談話當中那我現在當然不能去界定美中兩國談判要談什麼內容但我相信如果提到台灣應該要站在世界共同利益那川普總統已經講了台灣議題會是討論的重點之一只是他不想跟記者宣布"},{"start":4070.945,"end":4097.305,"text":"那我們有沒有透過外交管道或是其他管道馬上去了解說那到底川普總統所謂的台灣議題會是什麼目前沒掌握所以你不能講我們有什麼管道沒有什麼管道嗎外交部長就在你旁邊啊你的管道不就是外交部長嗎報告委員跟AIT或跟我們駐美代表處都有很密切跟美國政府表示聯繫中院長"},{"start":4101.881,"end":4130.725,"text":"看起來這一題也是無解啦不過本席真的由衷的希望站在中華民國的立場好好的捍衛兩千三百五十萬人的權益是啊 剛講過的世界的利益台灣 美國共同的利益就是這個立場啊來 兩位部長請回李楊部長 麻煩您麻煩請運動部長我們再來討論本席先講喔剛剛蔡子昌委員有提到所謂的台灣棒球博物館這是本席在運動部組織發展法的時候討論"},{"start":4131.958,"end":4154.931,"text":"組織法的時候就已經正式提案成為但書運動部要成立就要籌備台灣運動博物館也獲得立院三讀通過所以部長這個不是一個選項這是一個必要之作推動的事情這我希望部長能夠了解不過部長我比較想要跟您探討了解的是足協的問題10月14號中華男竹"},{"start":4162.093,"end":4184.188,"text":"輸給了泰國1比6分數多少其實說實在話運動有輸有贏有輸過沒怕過但我們不能輸給的是自己人在這一次10月14號打完之後我們看到男足訓練是吃便當是在河濱公園球場來練習不是專業的場館"},{"start":4187.734,"end":4213.233,"text":"住泰國是住一千塊的快捷旅店沒有健身房說穿了那就是一個商務旅館只能睡覺沒有任何的訓練甚至回家想要泡個澡可能都沒有浴缸球員的球衣還沒有名字那這些都是過去累積下來的惡習本席有看到李洋部長講說嚴重警訊那我現在只想要請教部長"},{"start":4215.506,"end":4238.715,"text":"怎麼做來改革這是國人給你的期待各位30秒具體的講出你要怎麼改革主席關於協會的部分關於我們其實我身為運動員剛退役沒多久其實我們一直知道我們運動員的聲音很不容易會傳到協會所以我們已經針對運動員做了明年會有運動員委員會那我們希望運動員的聲音可以傳遞到運動員委員會會把各單項納入"},{"start":4241.256,"end":4258.513,"text":"各單項的協會都有運動員委員會那過往是用指定理事長指派那我們用選舉的方法我們作為讓運動員去選舉所以我可以理解就像是各單項都會有類似球員公會的概念運動員委員會嘛就是他是運動員會員推選出來變成一個理事長"},{"start":4263.969,"end":4275.878,"text":"運動員會有運動員委員會他會有運動員自己推選出他自己運動員的但是各單項都有所以棒球協會有棒球運動員委員會籃球協會有籃球運動員委員會足球協會有足球運動員委員會對"},{"start":4281.623,"end":4298.772,"text":"那運作的方式 資金他們半年會召開至少召開一次會議然後提供想法跟建議然後由我們運動部同時去了解到這樣的問題本席記得這也是我們之前在教育文化委員會裡面正式立法通過但本席更希望的是"},{"start":4299.943,"end":4320.963,"text":"我們看到怎麼樣因為即便成立就像現在勞資雙方也會有很不對等的地方資方總是比較強勢勞方總是比較弱勢所以運動部站在運動天平的兩端就是要幫忙勞資雙方來取得一個平衡那我現在想問的是說除邪這樣子的一個長久下來的惡習甚至現在我們看到"},{"start":4321.503,"end":4335.789,"text":"在公眾政策平台裡面也有人提案落實全民參與督促逐協的財務其實很簡單啦財務先公開透明你資方就比較難有任何上下其手的地方"},{"start":4336.653,"end":4351.755,"text":"過去有發生什麼便當發票一次隨便報然後我們還是給他核銷那這樣子的一個狀況能不能改善委員報告我們目前會有兩年一次的財務查核那當然在協會的部分你講都是現況嘛"},{"start":4353.317,"end":4379.638,"text":"但就是因為現況下來長久累積還會有那麼多的問題所以我們才希望看到新人新氣象的部長改善那我們也希望用足協這個案例讓更多協會了解到全民都對運動協會這件事情非常在意那當然關於財務的部分我們希望說他們能夠做到公平公正公開聽起來是很好的說詞但是具體怎麼做部長"},{"start":4381.073,"end":4401.995,"text":"本席現在不是要讓你練口才跟演講比賽但你可不可以告訴本席以及關心運動的所有朋友你具體怎麼做當然在關於查核這部分我們有請我們競技師去做相關的做法那當然在協會這部分我們一定是作為我們最重要的任務之一"},{"start":4403.751,"end":4430.728,"text":"院長滿意剛剛部長的答詢嗎委員您跟我都不是運動選手所以我們對運動有高度的關心興趣所以期許但李部長他自己是運動選手他最知道怎麼做他只要做出來給大家看我請求大家支持來部長我不為難你你會後提供本席相關你願意具體怎麼做的報告可以嗎我只求一件事"},{"start":4431.508,"end":4452.032,"text":"我希望我們的足球也好我們的運動也好每一個不一定我們馬上短期內可以中華隊打進世界盃我覺得那還是有點距離但是我們至少可以是讓我們的球迷大聲的呼喊大聲的支持讓我們的球隊在去比賽的時候可以很驕傲的"},{"start":4452.452,"end":4476.164,"text":"就像棒球迷就像羽球迷去為羚羊沛加油的時候我們很驕傲的拿出我們的國旗我也希望我們的選手能夠很驕傲的站上戰場即便輸我們也是很驕傲的挺直胸膛離開戰場這樣可以嗎公委員您報告那所有改革都需要時間那我們當然希望運動部今年成立我們希望說會最對協會的部分會做出改善"},{"start":4476.94,"end":4505.914,"text":"好 謝謝部長來 院長最後三分鐘本席再來討論地方議題淡江大橋你也來看過明年5月12號會正式完工那通車大家都很期待但是隨著淡江大橋通車淡海科學城的發展才是重中之重來 淡海科學城賴清德總統的政見那時候說新北123那淡海科學城現在"},{"start":4510.383,"end":4536.23,"text":"現在進度我們再了解一下淡海科學城目前的進度不在院裡面我沒有提供幕僚作業說我會問什麼問題你就沒有辦法回答我現在說手上沒有淡海科學城部長 院長淡海科學城內政部這跟交通部真的比較沒有直接關係所以其實交通部站起來然後內政部到現在還坐在那邊不動我也覺得很訝異麻煩請內政部長備選"},{"start":4539.418,"end":4558.132,"text":"國土署做淡海新市鎮二期的開發而其中國土署有發函給國發會有發函給經濟部要求國發會經濟部跟地方政府共同來討論我們怎麼樣來做淡海科學城這是賴清德總統兩年多前在競選總統時候的政見"},{"start":4561.405,"end":4573.503,"text":"就我現在好像講了之後跟中央部會沒有半點關係內政部不知道 經濟部不知道 國防會不知道請內政部來說明目前有沒有相關進度院長 如果說您是我你可以接受官員是這種態度嗎"},{"start":4574.582,"end":4598.992,"text":"我自己會先了解清楚我了解了就是我那麼了解結果你完全不清楚所以我才想要問你說如果你是我你可以接受官員這種態度嗎我現在手上真的沒有淡海科學的進度看內政部來說明那您覺得淡海科學層重不重要一定重要嘛如果我們在未來發展AI是不是過去就變成說其實過去沒有討論到科技均衡發展是均衡台灣重要的一環"},{"start":4600.06,"end":4625.353,"text":"院長我具體建議好不好您能不能因為科學層真的很重要我覺得內政部的態度或是說他的速度真的讓國人沒有那麼大的期待尤其明年淡江大橋五月就要通車了能不能只派一個政委來統合內政部經濟部國發會針對淡海科學層這也是賴清德總統的政見我們幫賴清德總統兌現支票可以嗎"},{"start":4626.073,"end":4645.118,"text":"因為內政部還沒有來說明過如果這個科學層的部分當然是國科會的政委內政部還沒有討論到這個案子那拜託我們不要讓淡水人覺得我們比較適合我想您誤會了不是內政部沒有討論這個案子你當官院長就講說內政部沒有報告過嘛所以我想說那能不能取一個政委針對相關比較經濟專長的政委我們來專案研究這個案子院長可以嗎"},{"start":4661.307,"end":4678.182,"text":"未來你找國科會主委還是要找民主黨我找國會國科會主委未來我就對著你國科會主委現在又是給經濟部了"},{"start":4703.76,"end":4706.181,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟愷委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":4712.216,"end":4730.477,"text":"官員會現在在一場二樓旁聽來自臺北市北投區社區大學的同學們我們掌聲歡迎大家接下來我們請陳素月委員質詢王育明委員請準備"},{"start":4742.156,"end":4749.741,"text":"謝謝院長請院長邀請行政院卓院長還有外交部麻煩再請卓院長外交部長備詢陳國元好"},{"start":4760.439,"end":4776.642,"text":"院長早部長早安首先本席先就就是說在9月11號10號左右我們有看到新聞有報導就是說在尼泊爾有發生暴動"},{"start":4777.623,"end":4794.762,"text":"那時候就有新聞報導說我們的民眾致電外交部應該是印度的辦事處要求助結果遭冷回我覺得說看到這樣子的一個新聞報導我覺得對我們國家的外交部的形象不是很好吳小部長對這個事件"},{"start":4796.156,"end":4816.269,"text":"根委員報告因為這所謂冷回因為基本上我們在尼泊爾並沒有派出我們的代表處是由轄管所以這個聯繫上當然如果是我們同仁接到任何的急難救助或者是需要協助的"},{"start":4817.335,"end":4838.176,"text":"我們都一代的要求一定要立即來辦理因為恩尼伯羅當時在暴動的情況是很混亂所以這個情形並不是一般常態的代表處理不過我相信我們的同仁在第一線第一時間應該都是很認真在處理"},{"start":4839.808,"end":4863.324,"text":"我們知道說我們國家的外交處境真的是非常艱難畢竟我們在很多的地方沒有實際的邦交辦事處應該也都行之有年了應該在地方也都會建立相關的人脈所以在國人遇到急難的時候我們應該要盡力給予協助本席在最近又有一件民眾的陳情"},{"start":4865.586,"end":4889.365,"text":"那事實上這個陳情是從去年就開始了就是一件就是國人被誘騙到中國然後又被偷渡到緬甸的一個就是詐騙的案子那他被騙至這個緬甸之後就是被騙到這個KK園區去結果就是被限制這個行動自由被關在那邊從事這個詐騙的一個行為"},{"start":4890.953,"end":4916.572,"text":"家屬在知道他被騙至中國的時候事實上他那時候就有求助了那我們也透過就是說希望透過警政署外交部能夠趕快攔截把他營救回來可是都沒有辦法上例所以在經過一年的時間之後他的家屬也是費盡千辛萬苦透過各種關係也付了贖金就是兩萬美元的這個贖金那最近"},{"start":4917.112,"end":4944.54,"text":"把他這個媽媽把他救出來在離園區附近的一個地方那他也因為目前他也沒有任何的一個身份的資料就是護照都沒有所以他也再次的一個求助可是我們的外交的就是在金邊的辦事處的外交人員的回覆是要他自行想辦法移動到金邊這邊"},{"start":4947.18,"end":4975.131,"text":"我們的這個住外單位才能夠給予協助可是我覺得說在這樣子的一個協助的回復的時候我覺得好像有回跟沒有回是一樣的對於這個家屬毫無幫助我跟委員報告我們已經營救大概上百位被這個所謂不管是自動的或脅迫的到這個所謂的KK這個園區等等因為這個樣態很多包括有三分之一左右是有前科"},{"start":4975.911,"end":4996.219,"text":"有一些是自動去的有一些是被迫的所以在每一個情形之下我們必須判定而且我們在營救的過程包括跟警政署我們都有這些法務警政的秘書在我們的外館所以不管是緬甸也好泰國也好柬埔寨我相信我們都是很"},{"start":4997.29,"end":5005.813,"text":"主動但是在處理上的時候因為有些狹管權而且有些涉及安全的問題所以我想如果有個案"},{"start":5006.828,"end":5034.583,"text":"委員可以提供給我們我們來檢討看哪裡還可以再改進但是也可能這個對面支持我們也是會加以了解可是我們外交部還是沒有辦法給予很實質上的一個援助那我想因為時間有限有沒有辦法在這邊再跟部長做詳細的討論我們希望我在這邊提出來這個議題是希望就是說這個個案非常的明確然後這個就是家屬他也把他的媽媽"},{"start":5035.724,"end":5052.846,"text":"就是想盡辦法就離這個KK園區了我們希望外交部能夠在地方就是說在緬甸那邊就是在柬埔寨那邊能夠尋求相關的民間資源趕快把他的媽媽能夠帶到安全的地方協助他反國"},{"start":5054.947,"end":5076.353,"text":"謝謝林部長接下來我想就我們工地放領的政策來請教院長我們知道我們國家工地放領的政策自從1948年開始就有辦理這樣的一個政策後來是因為921跟桃之颱風重創臺灣所以基於國土保育以及"},{"start":5077.393,"end":5095.847,"text":"國土保安及富裕的政策所以這個工地放寧政策從2008年就停辦了一直到現在可是我們也看到之前應該也是最近應該是去年前年就是也有針對宜蘭縣的蘇澳鎮朝陽里的大蘭澳地區80公頃"},{"start":5098.148,"end":5125.945,"text":"抬拓地要重啟工地放寧的政策因為這個新聞都有報導所以我們地方的鄉親在我們彰化縣包括社同還有包括這個方園地區很多就是在工地上耕作的農民事實上他們在這個地方也都耕作四五十年以上了所以他們也很期盼說是不是也可以在就是說彰化縣也可以啟動這個工地放寧的政策"},{"start":5128.366,"end":5155.46,"text":"行政院在認為這是一個歷史轉型正義跟土地正義的問題如果在不妨礙到國土的保安保育以及公共安全的情況底下在有條件滿足的情況底下我們願意來思考所以從大南澳的台拓地先行試辦那這個試辦的過程以及現在的執行情況內政部一直在掌握當中那如果這個試辦可以在滿足相關的條件之後"},{"start":5156.44,"end":5176.429,"text":"依照這個條件或是在這個條件基礎上著與考慮其他的更多的方式加進來那這個會是後續接下來做的如果可以請部長來說明一下我可不可以補充說明一下謝謝陳委員的關心那院長有指示沒有錯在5月6號的時候已經有條件的放領國有的平地耕地"},{"start":5177.249,"end":5200.424,"text":"現在內政部去盤點包括山坡地放嶺跟平地耕地放嶺這兩件有關放嶺條件也就是說在山坡地範圍內的農牧用地以及平地耕地放嶺的農牧用地彰化縣政府確實有一些農民他是屬於這個範圍我們現在盤點出來在彰化的部分跟平地耕地放嶺"},{"start":5201.564,"end":5215.775,"text":"大概有331筆總共的面積是58.6公頃那山坡地的農牧用地大概是40筆總共是6公頃那未來立委所關心的這個部分如果在我們現在全部去整理出來"},{"start":5216.135,"end":5234.006,"text":"在法令依據上面沒有問題的話我們會優先來根據這個院長的指示來做這方面的辦理但是法令的依據要回顧過去三次裡面為什麼會停止辦理的狀況要需要再跟包括財政部或是國有財產署做最後的確認"},{"start":5235.394,"end":5256.915,"text":"我們知道工地當然有不同的類型有保安林地或者是林地或者是一般的農地在我的選區裡面社頭它本來是屬於保安林地後來它也劃出了已由國產署在管理所以希望再考慮到沒有國土保安及保育的問題"},{"start":5257.755,"end":5279.586,"text":"的這個限制之外我們可以考慮來啟動這個工地放領的政策報告陳委員我會補充一下有關山坡地範圍內的林業用地目前大概沒有包括在放領的範圍內那還有包括剛剛院長所指示的如果你牽涉到國土保安保育或者是公共安全的這些前提之下那"},{"start":5280.246,"end":5292.352,"text":"院裡頭大概不會贊成有這樣子的條件所以我們要把這三個條件全部滿足之後才能朝著未來法律依據許可的狀況之下繼續往前來執行跟推動"},{"start":5293.39,"end":5315.183,"text":"是 好 那當然就是我們政府在針對這個政策會有條件的一個考量那希望符合的區域就是方院的這個部分應該是一般農地那希望就是說就符合條件的部分我們可以來盡快的一個啟動是好 謝謝部長謝謝那接下來我想請教就是有關經濟的一個議題那請劉部長請回"},{"start":5320.575,"end":5344.244,"text":"我想最近幾天這個股市的表現非常的耀眼在10月20號我們台股又創新高達到27688.63點那台積電的盤中股價高達1495元我們的外匯存底也破了6000億美元那在我們今年的人均GDP也超越了南韓應該達到應該有4萬美元"},{"start":5346.874,"end":5372.954,"text":"可是這些亮眼的數字我想可能也是我們中央政府對外在宣傳的時候非常引以自豪的可是我們要去思考說在這樣子的一個武士的一個亮眼的表現之外我們的台灣的經濟是真的就是真的是這麼好嗎我們要去好好的一個思考想先請教一下部長的看法"},{"start":5373.841,"end":5387.372,"text":"整體面來講還是非常好的趨勢當然有一些傳統性的產業它受到的事實上是不只對等關稅的影響主要的原因還是過去這幾年因為中國它低價傾銷"},{"start":5389.533,"end":5414.038,"text":"在國際市場上使得我們包括可能傳統性的產業包括機械業或者是像塑膠的製品可能會受到一些影響我們現在當然也極力的透過特別預算來支持他們編了大概460億元來全力這個錢絕大部分是用在傳統產業跟中小微的企業身上"},{"start":5415.418,"end":5442.686,"text":"事實上在關稅我們知道因為今天也有委員都關心到關稅的衝擊對美國關稅的影響真的對於傳統產業是雪上加霜因為在美國的對等關稅之前事實上我們台灣的傳統產業就已經非常的艱困而且對於我們國家的政策對於科技業跟傳統產業"},{"start":5443.886,"end":5469.227,"text":"本來就有不同的一個措施所以導致好的越來越好傳統產業是越來越困難所以我們今天要講的就是說在股市的一個這樣子的一個創新高的狀況之下我們要去考量到很多傳統產業他們所面臨的一個困境應該要一同兼顧這樣子才是真正的好"},{"start":5469.967,"end":5485.01,"text":"我們事實上有兩個方式來支持我們的傳統產業第一個就是說因為我們要是跟中國拼價格大概是沒有辦法拼但是我們可以跟他拼品質還有我們的認證在特殊領域裡面這個是我們很厲害的"},{"start":5486.292,"end":5501.331,"text":"為什麼在轉型跟升級方面我們大概投入200多億來做這樣的支持而且也成立著輔導團主動的要輔導這些傳統產業另外一個就是說我們都知道說這一次的電子業是受惠於AI的成長"},{"start":5502.092,"end":5522.235,"text":"我們現在要做的就是院長指示的要把這個AI的技術導入到百工百業讓這個百工百業都因為AI的發展而受惠他們也可以因為AI的發展而發展他們不管是升級也好或轉型也好獲得受益這個也是我們要做的就是把這個普遍性把它做出來"},{"start":5524.722,"end":5537.536,"text":"我要講的是說其實在對等關稅之前傳統產業就非常的艱困因為主要就是說過去以來我們中央政府對於科技業這個獎勵投資跟研發的投資的一個獎勵"},{"start":5538.782,"end":5543.646,"text":"比傳統產業更加的優惠對於傳統產業來說雖然在2023年我們把門檻取消之後研發的抵檢取消之後還有設備投資的抵檢有把門檻稍微放寬之外"},{"start":5558.836,"end":5573.847,"text":"可是對於整個傳統產業來說他們還是非常的一個困難所以我們是不是可以針對尤其在這個對等關稅的衝擊之後這個無薪假的狀況真的越來越多所以對於整個基層的"},{"start":5574.287,"end":5590.175,"text":"很多民眾真的也是非常的叫苦連天尤其又遇到很多的物價上漲的問題所以我們是不是就是說可以除了科技業它當然目前是一個非常好的狀況之外我們對於傳統產業我們是不是可以從"},{"start":5593.632,"end":5614.232,"text":"租稅優惠這個部分去考慮怎樣來鼓勵然後讓我們的這個中小企業能夠得到更多一個幫助雖然說我們在任性的這個特別預算裡面有這個就是有一些的補助包括就是貸款等等的那我們是不是可以針對這個減稅的部分因為我在地方拜訪的時候很多傳統的產業"},{"start":5615.453,"end":5642.484,"text":"他們是希望說能夠比照疫情期間給予一些減稅的一個優惠措施讓他們可以度過這樣子的一個衝擊跟難關是不是可以請部長八號委員現在我們對於這些傳統產業的支持剛剛提到就是說事實上院長在特別預算裡面特別提到的就是說如果這個企業在研發的過程當中導入這個太舊換新的機器設備的話那這個是我們有補助的最高可以補助到50%"},{"start":5643.624,"end":5663.056,"text":"而且他這個就是這個導入只要他智慧化的過程事實上是可以減稅的是可以補稅的跟委員報告總統總統在雙十的講話當中提到不只要有好數字要讓人民過好日子而且如果今天沒有受到"},{"start":5681.268,"end":5709.065,"text":"好 謝謝陳樹越委員質詢 謝謝左院長各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝各位現在議場二樓旁聽了來自台北市李孝禮的朋友們我們掌聲歡迎各位另外今天立法院非常熱鬧來自美國德拉瓦州眾議院的議長維吉尼亞州多數黨領袖馬里蘭州 西維吉尼亞州Welcome"},{"start":5713.602,"end":5732.376,"text":"接下來我們請王玉明委員質詢之後我們將會休息十分鐘十分鐘之後請武麗華委員準備質詢現在請王玉明委員謝謝院長我們現在請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5745.615,"end":5759.64,"text":"黃委員好院長好院長昨天監察院出了一份調查報告是針對太陽光電的問題他列舉了七大疏失跟問題不曉得這份報告院長你有沒有時間看了"},{"start":5760.942,"end":5775.118,"text":"抱歉我昨天都在看雨量沒有看好那應該不會裡面有人看到這份報告了在這份報告裡面呢他直指第一個問題就是這個太陽光電呢本來2025"},{"start":5777,"end":5798.754,"text":"要達到的目標是20GW但是呢到113年底只有14.28GW就是沒有達到目標那我請教院長事實上這個一再跳票已經是前任的經濟部部長他也已經承認了但是他允諾說2026年11月一定會達到20GW"},{"start":5801.956,"end":5825.595,"text":"現在這個問題我重新問院長既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎這個目標要不要重新修正這是我們現在的目標仍然是既定的目標你認為可以達成嗎全力以赴"},{"start":5826.789,"end":5848.616,"text":"可以保證達標嗎當然是全力以赴啊全力以赴監察院的報告我們會感覺這個就是五院體制的一個它的優好的地方他提出了內容對我們提醒的我們全力要自我檢討那如果有一些我們可以回復的我們也會適當說明院長我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面他點出了非常多的問題"},{"start":5849.776,"end":5863.732,"text":"其中一個就是你的土地與農增地不只是與農增地你的餘電共生是你們現在要達到20GW最大的目標但是最近最大的問題就是有電無"},{"start":5865.114,"end":5885.775,"text":"有七成是審計部已經揪出來了那現在真正達到與電共生的其實不到一成也就是你這個政策其實有非常大的問題更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候他也是信誓旦旦說與電共生沒有問題很完美有魚有電"},{"start":5886.916,"end":5911.47,"text":"結果這是假象所以我要提出來是既然漁電共生也有問題既然與農徵地也有爭議現在水面型的光電的檢討聲浪也非常多請問你下一個目標你可以達到明年達到20GW你把目標放在哪裡好 謝謝委員我們也看到漁電共生魚養得不夠多"},{"start":5912.45,"end":5926.73,"text":"讓地主來養魚這個狀況我們已經看到了他的缺失所以農業部有提出了新的方式希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚那我們還是來重電看能不能讓嘗試 請部長來說明我跟委員說明"},{"start":5929.253,"end":5946.269,"text":"我們現在在處理就是說漁電公司裡面養魚的這些是由專業的漁青來進場而且是在光電在設計的時候就參與它的一個設計部長我知道你講的都是一個理想化的模式不是 現在已經在做 在示範了"},{"start":5946.909,"end":5971.73,"text":"被審計部揪出來的過去發展的這幾年漁電共生並沒有真正達到他的目標就是因為過去我們發現到說由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的就直接讓他先發電不養魚就先發電就先開後門那個沒有拿到電業執照所以他沒有真正達到真正既合法又達到漁電共生符合標準"},{"start":5974.432,"end":5989.074,"text":"所以我要提醒的是這一個政策20GW雖然是你們的目標但是該修正了該怎麼修正就務實的面對問題為什麼我要指出來的是台灣我們的土地面積真的不大"},{"start":5989.875,"end":6007.668,"text":"想要發展太陽能光電屋頂型的大家沒有問題地面型的如果你有足夠的是荒廢的土地不是良地喔不要毀零重電不要我們看到高雄這樣的一個情況我也不要看到嘉義縣台塘要大規模去毀零重電"},{"start":6008.729,"end":6035.321,"text":"不是這種破壞土地的重點我們都支持但是你現在還有這麼大的落差你要達到這個目標我很擔心你們的亂象繼續往前推進這幾個這幾個指出來的問題我要就教院長就是請問您是由誰來負責解決這些問題因為現在涉及到農業部涉及到經濟部涉及到內政部他是一個跨部會的"},{"start":6036.702,"end":6060.54,"text":"請問監察院這份調查報告直指你的問題你的改善你的改善的報告你要由誰來負責督導統籌這所有的問題報告委員我會很清楚的看完監察院的報告那該哪個部會處理我們會依序下去剛剛您說過了這麼多的部會首長部會的業務都在裡面我們當然有一位政委會來負責是哪一位"},{"start":6064.272,"end":6074.329,"text":"陳靜德政委是工程會的主委陳靜德政委會來統籌所有的那這樣的一個檢討報告你大概多久會提出來回應監察院"},{"start":6075.9,"end":6102.379,"text":"監察院的報告他如果沒有定時間我們盡快回應是我們在一個月內有一個完整的說明出來一個月內嗎那請你也有一份報告給立法院好不好好謝謝那接下來我要請教的就是水面型光電的一個問題在水面型光電的這個問題裡面呢我一張表給這個院長看一下特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情"},{"start":6103.18,"end":6123.97,"text":"我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有"},{"start":6125.891,"end":6147.96,"text":"涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈"},{"start":6151.503,"end":6173.681,"text":"第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全那我以前說過如果我們沒有辦法處理水質的問題的話那水庫上面做光電板的工作我們就勢必做不下去在目前看起來包括環境部所說的整個清洗的過程並沒有用到"},{"start":6174.571,"end":6199.67,"text":"不當的一些清潔用品那它也持續一直在監測水質的安全目前來看水質是可控的但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心所以在更有信心之前像台南烏山頭第二期它就停下來了只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話我們先跟地方溝通在沒有取得共識之前我想不會貿然再增加大型的這種水庫上渡好 院長我要給你建議"},{"start":6200.831,"end":6222.102,"text":"事實上你看到那幾個特別我今天特別關注的是民生用的水庫就是他百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水你剛才講到一個重點民眾對於食安的要求對於自己喝的水的要求那個是百分之百的堅持就像這杯水今天我要喝的這杯水"},{"start":6223.516,"end":6245.468,"text":"然後呢如果你上面加了一個塑膠的東西你說它是無毒無害然後委員放心這個好漂亮這個放在上面這個有功能然後你給它喝下去都沒有問題我要告訴這個部長先不用講話你先不用打斷我我要告訴院長的是說有沒有必要"},{"start":6246.588,"end":6268.708,"text":"在要喝的水上面你去加裝任何的東西如果我們對於食安的要求對於水質的要求是這麼的高標準我給院長看一下我們現在有一個水庫蓄水區使用管理辦法我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了"},{"start":6269.409,"end":6295.703,"text":"因為它是對於我們水庫的源頭做了非常高強度的一個管理你知道嗎它連在上面要放輔具都不可以要申請行駛的船法你只是船法也不可以你要去放生魚類水產物不行喔這個通通都要管理那如果這些東西都要好好管理的話本席百分之百贊成"},{"start":6297.85,"end":6326.537,"text":"這麼大型的光電板設施浮在這個民生用的水庫上面你會不會覺得這個在道理上面民眾的直觀為什麼覺得不可以我要求我的水源是百分之百的乾淨啊你今天要在上面跟我加租任何東西你告訴我有多麼的安全我的答案當然是不可以不是不可以更是什麼不需要"},{"start":6327.317,"end":6349.717,"text":"沒有必要以國際的例子來看美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的而且他們的標準跟我們來看我們絕對不會落後給他們你如果要這樣子講我就要說那世界各國有核電為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來當講這個的時候你們就引用國際的例子當講到核能就是說台灣我們有我們自己的考量"},{"start":6350.157,"end":6375.028,"text":"我們台灣對於我們水的水庫水源的安全的保證我們就是要求一個高標準嘛另外一個我要看的是委員的高標準我們都接受我們都接受高標準不是因為我們所以就是因為地窄人潮我還沒有講完齁這個條文裡面呢你除了要申請之外還有許可使用的期限不得超過三年"},{"start":6375.808,"end":6399.314,"text":"也就是它是採取一個高密度的監督跟管理你任何來申請的不能超過三年喔我請問你們現在關於水庫的一核准是幾年可以使用20年了經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理的辦法你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣子的一個管理辦法請說明"},{"start":6401.348,"end":6426.982,"text":"剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年如果他那也違法只能三年啊我們不可能違法他的許可使用年限不得超過三年呢你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎怎麼會沒有違法你的七年就超過三年怎麼沒有違法地方政府核定的這個管理辦法就違反這個管理辦法仔細看清楚"},{"start":6428.82,"end":6443.539,"text":"一次就是三年啊除非它裡面有一個除非的條款喔因為你蓋的是一個永久性的設施許可的年限不受三年的規定我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎是啊是什麼是什麼"},{"start":6446.67,"end":6473.589,"text":"浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎你們自己違法都不知道請問你們開什麼會法務部相關的法規的人員沒有人提出來嗎除非你有另立一個專法就是我的光電板設在水庫上面我突破了現行的管制跟規定有嗎有任何一位要上來說明嗎你們是突破哪一個法令的規定誰可以說明麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告"},{"start":6475.846,"end":6488.576,"text":"經濟部現在合訂的跟地方政府合訂的就是用七年來做標準那就違法水庫的我再跟你討論水庫的部分你現行的水庫蓄水使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的"},{"start":6490.54,"end":6517.267,"text":"因為它這個一次就是三年你為什麼可以合七年光電板它絕對不是一個臨時性搭上去的它是相當堅固的所以這次在相當堅固一個丹納斯颱風吹翻了多少的光電板相當堅固它是浮動式的它是漂浮在水面怎麼會非常堅固呢所以這一個部分我要求你們回去要給本席的檢討報告我現在找出來的資料你們就是違法"},{"start":6518.547,"end":6536.44,"text":"你們當時的開會記錄到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的你為什麼可以先給業者這麼長的時間這就是很明顯的違法嘛那這件事情我要跟院長報告的是我今天站在就是人民的角度而已"},{"start":6537.02,"end":6564.218,"text":"人民為什麼不願意我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水民生水庫我們台灣有缺電缺道我們這麼少量的珍貴的民生用的水庫一定要拿來放置蓋水面型光電板然後讓民眾焦慮不安有必要嗎"},{"start":6567.501,"end":6585.862,"text":"這個部分我希望院長你好好思考該怎麼決定不需要的你也可以立場很清楚告訴全國民眾以後民生用水庫完全排除在光電廠的開發我們也不開發水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面"},{"start":6586.963,"end":6612.714,"text":"爭議就結了很多民眾的反彈是我喝的水我不允許在源頭放置這樣的一個東西我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難爭議就在這邊而已把它切掉很多問題其實就沒有那麼的嚴重"},{"start":6613.334,"end":6628.003,"text":"我的建議是這樣子在已經現有的我們持續加強水質的監測那未來的如果沒有消除地方的疑慮而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話那這個政策的討論我們會慎重來檢討"},{"start":6630.357,"end":6651.984,"text":"我覺得民生水庫至少現在依法你們現在核出去的都超過三秒這個已經違法了我的立場很清楚我幫民眾請命不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施也發不了多少電救不了多少綠能的20GW的目標接下來我要討論一個問題是我們現在少子化的問題"},{"start":6652.924,"end":6667.482,"text":"我們現在少子化真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施前陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂讓很多家長都炸鍋了它的利益我不能說是不好"},{"start":6668.283,"end":6684.705,"text":"但是他的執行方式跟手段跟完全忽略了這一個有育兒家庭的這些家長他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中搭乘公共運輸過程當中他的確他就是孩子會哭鬧"},{"start":6685.626,"end":6710.564,"text":"但是你用了一個寧靜車廂讓他壓力倍增就整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候他突然他會變得他很突兀然後他會被指責然後有一些人甚至有厭痛的情緒然後就矛頭就會看向這個帶著小孩的家長所以我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利我們接到非常多家長的抱怨但是我個人認為這件事情是有解放的"},{"start":6711.064,"end":6737.58,"text":"我們看看在其他先進國家他們會運用的方式就是我有親子車廂我讓有小孩的家長我們在親子車廂裡面就是大家這種包容性都很強而且他可以有一些很有善的措施你看看像德國的高鐵他們就有幼兒的包廂措施在裡面包括他設計他的這個嬰兒車的停放區也空間比較大也方便家長可以出來"},{"start":6738.14,"end":6762.548,"text":"我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成"},{"start":6763.308,"end":6790.765,"text":"他們都覺得不可行他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員 寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦 講電話啦 聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位"},{"start":6791.772,"end":6808.14,"text":"那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下"},{"start":6809.62,"end":6829.487,"text":"報告委員其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事"},{"start":6831.608,"end":6847.825,"text":"不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足 運量不足因為每天都很塞 坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的"},{"start":6849.486,"end":6877.401,"text":"那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運具空間那我們來思考說哪些運具空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善"},{"start":6877.921,"end":6898.167,"text":"不管是在哪一個車廂即便是在高鐵的商務車廂應該要親子友善才對您的這個利益非常良善這個當然是我們追求最高目標大家都應該要對孩子友善但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會就是有人對於孩子的聲音他的容忍度就是很低"},{"start":6898.587,"end":6924.088,"text":"他希望他在搭他的這個車廂的時候呢最好就是不要出現這些聲音那些人的意見也可以理解所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂這個完全都可以理解我們解決問題呢就是也不能耗高屋源你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態這個也是我們從事兒童工作認為大家都應該這麼友善但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想"},{"start":6925.129,"end":6940.7,"text":"所以才會有所謂嚥捅的情緒那你處理這種多元的議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權我剛剛講的這樣的一個建議我不是要高鐵一下子就整個車廂打造的像德國這樣子這麼好但至少他可以先做什麼事情"},{"start":6941.3,"end":6956.281,"text":"就是你可以告訴大家譬如說你現在只訂第五車廂或者是第七車廂叫做親子車廂讓家長可以先訂票而且讓教育大眾就是說我對外講這個叫親子車廂親子可以優先訂票我帶小孩優先訂票到這個車廂"},{"start":6957.603,"end":6973.959,"text":"然後如果你買不到票的不是親子車廂只有親子可以坐其他你如果買不到票所以不會排擠你的座位問題其他人呢你如果買不到票你買到親子車廂有一點點心理準備這個車廂小孩子比較多可能聲音會比較大"},{"start":6974.62,"end":7000.776,"text":"所以他自己也接受了就不會抱怨但他的好處是什麼你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長你讓他在親子車廂是安心的不用接受質疑的眼光孩子要大聲就大聲孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧而且你高鐵可以把你所有你要給孩子的乖乖你要安撫孩子的工具你的人員你就集中在這個車廂你從這邊開始做起"},{"start":7002.657,"end":7029.888,"text":"而未來你新的車廂的購入你在下一個階段你可以透過空間的改造達到更符合民府其實的親子車廂我認為處理這個政策是這樣的完全不增加它的成本但是有沒有解決現行的爭議我覺得是有的而且它的寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實也是可以的這個叫做兩全其美"},{"start":7031.048,"end":7048.367,"text":"我希望這個政策你們可以好好去思考這個真的是一個在不增加成本你先讓大家家長有這個方便解除他的壓力我認為這個是可以往前推進的目前雖然台鐵是虧損但是我之前有立法"},{"start":7049.008,"end":7075.226,"text":"那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理"},{"start":7076.627,"end":7101.114,"text":"那接下來我要問的是少子化的議題我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有這個部長前任的衛福部部長已經在委員會我們多次詢問他說有已經在研議現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問他說參考了德國的這個專責單位他很有感回來之後會繼續推請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情"},{"start":7106.075,"end":7129.746,"text":"那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立一個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導"},{"start":7130.786,"end":7146.651,"text":"同時我們會不定期的召開相關的會議也會提出一些對潮指化政策所需要的一些配套的措施包括福利政策等等那這個都在跨部會當中來運作那現在感覺是目前的運作是針對問題來解決問題而不是設置一個機構一個專責的機構來解決這個問題"},{"start":7151.823,"end":7169.169,"text":"目前的解決問題的過程跟能力目前還算是順暢我們朝這個方向繼續強化這個院長我要跟你討論一個問題就是說我們其實跟日本很友好很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走日本他是怎麼處理問題的"},{"start":7170.649,"end":7185.587,"text":"它是先設立了一個兒童家庭廳它是在首相之下也就是等於在我們台灣就是在院長您之下直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳它是用這樣子的一個專門的組織跟規模跟層級來回應"},{"start":7189.392,"end":7209.233,"text":"它現在的少子化的議題因為你夠重視就當然會有這一個轉折單位就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部的部長我們的李洋部長在現場就是我們夠重視運動我們有運動部如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化的問題"},{"start":7210.354,"end":7233.696,"text":"夠重視兒少的議題也應該要有一個專責單位這個是很多民間單位已經推動非常久那現在也該到了要決斷的時候為什麼因為今年的新生兒的出生率史上最低恐怕不到12萬這個是一個很恐怖的數字如果是人口學專家他大概就是焦慮到睡不著了"},{"start":7234.176,"end":7253.544,"text":"因為這個以下的如果是掉到12萬以下我們的國力也好我們將來的生產力也好各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅面對了在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中這個是根本就是說你沒有從一個"},{"start":7255.705,"end":7269.385,"text":"組織的高度來解決問題的時候你只會頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳就是你所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變因為你沒有一個好的組織"},{"start":7270.226,"end":7292.334,"text":"跟好的人才專心來想這件事情因為大家業務都很繁忙新的衛福部部長不忙嗎很忙啊他醫療的問題 電子菸的問題 加熱菸的問題很多啊 疾病管理的問題誰專心來想這件事情呢那你不能只有陳時中政委一個人啊對不對 三頭六臂只有一個人很難啊"},{"start":7293.695,"end":7303.014,"text":"你要一群人好好的在這件事情有做一個好的政策上面的思考我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談"},{"start":7304.019,"end":7323.449,"text":"不會是不是院長你可以回去仔細的開會討論然後給外界的回應這個專責單位不能說前任部長說要設次長人在德國說要設結果我現在在這個院會正式詢問的時候院長回答不出來也沒有說一定要設"},{"start":7324.549,"end":7345.308,"text":"我會再跟次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一個什麼樣國際上先進的作為不過跟委員報告我們現在這個階段我們會從兒童少年以及家庭支持會有一個新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做包括兒童的健康 兒童的預防 兒童的權益照顧還有整個家庭的支持"},{"start":7347.13,"end":7368.11,"text":"那在部會下面現在部會下面做這個事情先在部會下做這個事情那以後我們跟次長來談談看國外好的經驗來如果我們真的有能力需要做到那個程度的話直接跟院長報告德國他就是原本他把衛生福利跟家庭的部門放在一起也是在他下面他現在是分開了"},{"start":7368.951,"end":7389.878,"text":"就是他獨立的一個部門他不是在下面他就是一個專責單位所以我希望這個院長可以好好思考另外最後的時間我要問也因應這個問題我有看到行政院在動10月27號有全國的婚育宅開始開放申請這是一個好的起點但是我必須坦白講這個戶數太少了"},{"start":7392.859,"end":7411.797,"text":"然後設定12年我無法理解一個婚育家庭他的小孩他今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅孩子國小畢業之後我們就得搬家了沒有辦法在這個區域念完國中你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的"},{"start":7412.458,"end":7437.815,"text":"他們都是20年等孩子長大成人之後他才會更換為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢孩子念到國小就要搬家你知道一個搬家對一個家庭來講他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換為什麼當時在思考政策的時候這麼的短而不是放大到他的這個年限至少讓他到國高中畢業之後"},{"start":7440.435,"end":7459.607,"text":"這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少我們會像快速來增加那因為他基本上他還是涉宅的成分他還是涉宅的性質所以他有一種轉換率的需求如果我們涉宅達到我們的預定目標之後這個年限當然是可以再放寬的這個內政部都有相關的推演的過程"},{"start":7460.855,"end":7482.362,"text":"我今天要表達就是說這個對於婚姻家庭來講是不夠的因為我去大學演講很多年輕朋友他們現在最焦慮的確是住的問題當我跟他們講說南韓有這麼好的一個政策鼓勵婚姻家庭他們聽了很羨慕他們希望他們問的一個問題就是說委員請問我們台灣"},{"start":7484.142,"end":7513.229,"text":"什麼時候要比照這個南韓可以有這樣的一個婚育宅可以讓我們真的想結婚的人我們可以擁有房子可以在裡面安心的生小孩這個是年輕人我在第一線聽到最真實的聲音他們羨慕的不得了我希望好想贏南韓不是口號我們真的在婚育宅的政策我們也可以超越他我希望這部分是不是院長你回去之後可以指示相關的部門"},{"start":7513.849,"end":7528.608,"text":"我們現在台場有那麼多的土地我們其實還有很多的空間我們現在這個起步我肯定就是27號上路的婚禦宅但是我要告訴大家的是真的這個數量遠遠不夠"},{"start":7529.729,"end":7554.106,"text":"現在年輕人住宅真的是他最大的一個問題我希望在這個部分我們回去之後內政部來在這邊回去加強而且去盤點我們需要更大的量而且那個期效不能只是12年好不好我們現金盤點48萬戶以上好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉敏委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":7558.68,"end":7568.461,"text":"抱怨后我们先来休息十分钟第一阶段谢谢吴宗宪委员罗志强委员罗廷伟委员一起来陪同我们参与我们先休息十分钟"},{"start":8167.403,"end":8168.866,"text":"八月會我們現在繼續開會接下來請吳麗華委員質詢蘇清泉委員請準備"},{"start":8193.834,"end":8197.085,"text":"謝謝主席 有請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":8208.956,"end":8226.106,"text":"務委員好院長好剛才我有聽到王委員有問一個問題就是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情我其實在剛進入立法院的第一年當時水利署在牡丹水庫"},{"start":8226.866,"end":8243.613,"text":"我記得也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案不過留標十幾次後來有一位立法委員就是很積極的促成這件事情所以當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我澄清"},{"start":8244.273,"end":8261.639,"text":"因為地方是因為不了解所以傾向比較不同意後來是沒有設置但是多年後我才發現說這件事情雖然是合法的但是有弊案發生了就是那位立委我現在"},{"start":8262.139,"end":8277.419,"text":"很多人其實很容易把我們的再生能源發展跟這一些什麼破壞環境 弊案 掛鉤在一起就形成了一個混淆所以想要請教一下院長關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情到底合不合法"},{"start":8282.274,"end":8293.32,"text":"剛剛王委員他提到的就是我們管理辦法裡面的第5條他寫的是於蓄水範圍內下列行為者其行為人"},{"start":8294.12,"end":8322.941,"text":"因向其管理機關構申請的許可所以他引用的那這個的確是三年違憲但是呢這個重要的就是說這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的如果你本身就是管理機關的話你是可以透過招標自行設置是不受這一條限制的所以基本上來講烏山陀水庫因為管理機關是農業部所以農業部基本上這個是農業部招標的所以是沒有法律上是沒有問題的"},{"start":8323.761,"end":8339.607,"text":"理解 以上說明一下那彭部長也要補充嗎對 包委喔 因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民他們也很在意水質有沒有問題事實上我們從這個光電板的上游還有下游 甚至到進水場我們都做了非常嚴密的這個"},{"start":8340.547,"end":8366.055,"text":"水質的檢驗沒有任何受到光碟板的影響同時裡面的PFAS就是含氟的有機化合物PFAS目前來看的話遠低於歐盟任意的標準所以烏山口水庫的水質是相當好的所以在法令上是合法那水質的話也是必須做的事情也都是透明可查透明可查 沒有任何安全的疑慮我説明一下 比如說烏山口水庫來講的話"},{"start":8368.336,"end":8388.153,"text":"裝設光電板的部分只有他湖面的1%多一點而已而且就如果是以民生用電它是微幅主要它是灌溉用的而且我們的取水口離這個光電板非常非常距離非常非常遠而且每天都會做水質的檢測到我們進水場裡面去所以是"},{"start":8389.114,"end":8407.202,"text":"絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟好 謝謝"},{"start":8408.783,"end":8424.653,"text":"我這邊可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外界所擔心的這些陰離子的活性見面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水"},{"start":8425.814,"end":8440.797,"text":"那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角"},{"start":8441.878,"end":8460.389,"text":"所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告就是說其實烏山頭水庫的水質是絕對是符合我們的標準的而且是灌溉用水民生用水都是標準的那也希望外界不要刻意的造成一些恐慌造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤"},{"start":8461.328,"end":8483.881,"text":"我希望我們的每個部會都能夠加強訊息的一個澄清因為這個對我們的整個社會韌性的發展是非常重要好 謝謝各位部長的說明那我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用不過我要先跟院長說就是這一次花蓮的災情其實中央部會有非常多的長官"},{"start":8484.762,"end":8500.715,"text":"進駐到第一線來去支援 協助大家都很辛苦那其中這個馬太安顏色湖其實我們在地的族人他們一直有一個訴求就是希望中繼安置那其實這個中繼安置在國際間其實都已經有了"},{"start":8501.195,"end":8528.752,"text":"可是這是莫拉克災後重建的一個遺憾因為是直接做永久屋的安置那為什麼要做中繼安置其實很簡單重建家園可能三個月可能半年可能一年但是我們希望在這一段時間我們不是被安置到移清或者是去租屋或者是去旅社我們希望的是依照原住民的一個集體性跟社會韌性我們能夠在一起"},{"start":8529.732,"end":8554.523,"text":"做討論為我們後來的重建家園所以我認為這個部分現在我們內政部也都有聽到 園民會也都聽到如果能夠把這個中繼安置做好我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的一個掌聲那另外呢在這個利烏溪燕子口造成的這個煙色湖我也要謝謝一下因為劉思芳部長跟我們的曾志勇主委有站上來其實"},{"start":8556.664,"end":8566.312,"text":"我們在做安置的當下族人跟我們陳情反應說他們需要衛浴設備當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長四個小時內我們協調國防部那個沐浴車就來了"},{"start":8573.358,"end":8597.344,"text":"那個得到族人很大的掌聲覺得有政府有安心會做事那我也借這個機會但是後面有一個問題就是關於這個封閉的問題因為這個燕子口煙色湖他的量體大概是馬太安溪煙色湖的百分之零點二而且他是距離很近所以要做處理"},{"start":8597.824,"end":8618.785,"text":"很方便可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉這個引起很大的討論甚至是影響到我們的向山致敬政策或者是我們的高山產業發展那為什麼我會把這個做影子我其實是要提到我們人本來就是靠山吃山靠海吃海原住民也是一樣"},{"start":8619.887,"end":8637.046,"text":"那我先請院長了解我們這幾年我們的獎勵照領提高了年限縮短了這個我很高興後來我們繼續進法補償金也要跟著獎勵照領提高而提高謝謝行政院也做到了"},{"start":8637.506,"end":8666.769,"text":"我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款讓我們有融資那這個也快成功了但是速度有點慢那我要講的是說包括自然碳會納入方法學這些我們都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用我今天要談的是坡地的農業因為請院長猜一猜有看到這個水果原民會主委可能也可以幫忙猜那個是水蜜桃"},{"start":8668.161,"end":8687.136,"text":"這個院長或主委這個知不知道這個一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺農民如果沒有什麼寒害蟲害淨賺多少一年一公頃謝謝委員水蜜桃大概是370萬一年一公頃確實我的數據是350謝謝那這個愛文芒果一公頃愛文應該是150萬左右"},{"start":8696.355,"end":8718.24,"text":"所以院長您聽到了齁我其實問很多我們的族人啊淨伐補償一公頃六萬塊獎勵照齡現在一公頃十萬然後我問他們說你要照齡還是淨伐很多人跟我講說特別是農民啊有那個我要種芒果比較好我說為什麼因為他一年可以淨賺120到150"},{"start":8720.501,"end":8747.177,"text":"也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用但是我們看一下這個圓餅圖在原住民族地區我們的零農用地就佔了94%甚至是我們的這些零地幾乎私有的原保地是47%全數都拿去做進發補償"},{"start":8748.975,"end":8758.912,"text":"為什麼因為限制很多那我們很感謝農業部我們的林保署他有一個政策叫做零下經濟"},{"start":8760.88,"end":8781.021,"text":"但是我們現在就想問了因為進法補償的要看竹木林的覆蓋七成所以我們想要問這個百分之三十能不能夠開放耕作那剛才我有講了因為我們會受制於這個森林法那現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟"},{"start":8782.102,"end":8806.658,"text":"但是我們希望項目更多元一點我們看一下林下經濟的作物現在開放有九種全部都是台灣原生種可是跟院長報告我們很多林下都長咖啡我們很多的愛玉樓是跟著樹在攀升我們很多的樹林底下那個山蘇都到處長但是他會遇到一個狀況就是進法補償"},{"start":8809.78,"end":8828.576,"text":"會因為他不是零下經濟允許的作物就會把它扣除掉就不能領進法補償這個帶來很多的一個困擾土地的多元利用因為他會碰到所謂的水保法裡面的超限利用就會造成他的進法補償被取消那"},{"start":8829.036,"end":8844.373,"text":"我們現在看水保法第26條其實他也沒有禁止他有但書有例外規定他說但不包括依其他法得為農漁募資懇職經營或使用特別是"},{"start":8845.253,"end":8868.783,"text":"國土計劃法上注之後未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把這個坡地的農業會列入到農山的部分所以呢我們也有一個所謂的原住民族土地使用管制規則他最新公告預告的這個草案就有提到有關傳統耕作灌輸涉及水保山坡保育利用條例可以透過鄉村"},{"start":8870.283,"end":8884.972,"text":"地區整體規劃舊部落的實際需要另訂土地使用管制規則這個就是一線生機啊所以我在這個地方要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長有沒有辦法來修一下這個水土保持法的施行細則"},{"start":8886.772,"end":8905.599,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實這個議題在上次南投的一個天然災害的時候越南就有指示那時候是針對公有林的部分我們希望說公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助後來我們就從事實際的研議林地我先講第一個就是"},{"start":8906.599,"end":8930.471,"text":"原住民保留地的建法補償的這些林業用地不是說都不要去動它以林業的角度來講不能說都不動它反而是不好的所以要適當的做經營的利用所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的然後現在第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積我們現在在公有地的話只要你保留30%的林地就可以了"},{"start":8931.171,"end":8955.922,"text":"第三個比較重要的就是您剛才講的像咖啡有一些過去我們的零下經濟的品項都是一個品項 一個品項開放現在我們是用原則性的你只要用一些有機的方法不要影響生態就可以了我後面會講到原民會主委你聽到了部長的態度就是政府的態度就是院長的態度好 那我就繼續說原民會要不要主動來修淨法補償我們現在也在"},{"start":8958.763,"end":8976.015,"text":"在想要怎麼主動來修正我們也會跟農業部這裡一起來演說非常感謝我前面談到的都是法令限制我們的現況我要講因為切後變遷的關係然後我們必須要有一些耐旱的作物"},{"start":8976.835,"end":8997.21,"text":"那作為一個戰爭的備糧小米就是全世界最公認的最好的一個漢作要提供糧食的自給率那2023年呢全球也訂定叫做小米年甚至很多國家包括中國已經把這個所謂的素小米列為第二公糧"},{"start":8998.471,"end":9026.059,"text":"這個就是為未來的世界做預備啊所以我也要特別的謝謝教育部農業部園民會在這個學期開始讓小米進入到國中小的營養午餐但是實施的學校只有30多校為什麼量不夠啊那為什麼量不夠明明有獎勵喔你看農糧署有一個綠色環境給付計畫喔但是裡面全國適用的41項作物沒有小米"},{"start":9027.23,"end":9050.647,"text":"也就種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付那地方可以自提可是全國只有台東有提到小米所以為什麼只有台東人在種小米因為有獎勵所以這個我等一下再一起回答那第二個沒有獎勵也就罷了財閥卻很多因為他一燒墾的時候空污法 消防法"},{"start":9051.167,"end":9078.233,"text":"其實呢空污法也沒有禁止但是很多的縣市他用他的辦法去逾越母法就是給予全面禁止所以也沒有人敢做三田燒梗所以我希望消防法這個部分也是應該來修因為希望在消防法裡面只要在第14條的第一項加上但其他法律有特別規定者不再此限這樣子就給我們打開一個生機啦那其實呢回到問題的核心我們園民會"},{"start":9079.713,"end":9099.878,"text":"有一個原基法第13條政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性要英語保護啊到現在這個法都還訂不出來那我們根本小米都長不出來要做什麼傳統作物的保護所以我覺得現在是一個契機那因為我只有剩下15秒我希望原民會就農糧署的有機農業"},{"start":9101.238,"end":9112.703,"text":"不得來用你們去修法希望對竹林只要冒出來那個覆蓋率不要去計算還有就這些所謂的樹梅子樹能夠把它增加那我想這個部分好好 謝謝吳立華委員質詢 謝謝謝謝卓院長 各位所長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":9139.943,"end":9154.973,"text":"好 接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢張宏祿委員請準備好 謝謝主席 我們請院長再請總院長備詢"},{"start":9168.123,"end":9191.114,"text":"主委好 院長辛苦了第一個問題因為時間有限我們藝人 藝人 表演家散兵平船今天又有多名藝人被逮捕約談甚至上手銬我比較訝異的是這些人有的扶過替代役"},{"start":9200.906,"end":9217.074,"text":"是不是我們在替代役的資格審查上面有漏洞今天這個案子我是不曉得但是無論是一般的服役或是替代役都是國民應盡的義務"},{"start":9218.544,"end":9246.831,"text":"我認為站在國民的立場上跟國家立場上國民進這個義務的時候應該要勇敢的承擔那執行過程當中我認為這個警察機關自有他的衡量這是 我做海流案所以我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":9248.978,"end":9274.011,"text":"進行好幾波的一個妨礙兵役案件的一個偵辦像是王姓藝人那個已經都起訴了我想這個是此後不可長這個服兵役是國民應盡的義務我想這是憲法也有規定這個是屬於一個妨礙兵役這個是一個執行的方式"},{"start":9275.361,"end":9300.84,"text":"如果是逃避兵役那是嚴重啦如果你是一般的單兵的體會不擔心問題就做替代的體會國民的義務這個是一樣的這個都是服兵役嘛服的類種不一樣但是站在憲法上國民應經義務的這個憲法的精神規範是一樣的這個搞清楚之後我們來辦公室來討論一下好不好 副長"},{"start":9304.214,"end":9322.947,"text":"這個我想這個是個案的這是一個個案我們尊重這個整個兵役的一個制度我想這個是屬於不是我們法務部主管我們就是按照妨礙兵役違反妨礙兵役跟偽造文書這部分我們來做一個偵辦那我想這是一個個案我們也尊重檢察官的一個偵辦的一個職權"},{"start":9326.567,"end":9339.668,"text":"好 謝謝那再來就是運動部的問題運動部也成立不久 不忍苛責啦免卡 免卡 免卡剛才黃文凱問很多所以你們現在足協啊"},{"start":9340.799,"end":9364.189,"text":"弊端一大堆 這個我們請運動部的人到辦公室我們來研究研究討論一下這個事件剛好給運動部成立之後一個全新的運動部面對一個老問題啊 如何來解決我想全社會全國都在看未來運動部要大力的整頓各單項協會這是一個很好的一個起點雖然案件對我們來講蠻痛心的"},{"start":9365.47,"end":9378.56,"text":"但是利用這個案件能夠大力的整頓從此開始行政院全力支持運動部做這樣的改革好 就新的一個部會那再來我們再講天災我們請農業跟經濟部麻煩請農業部長 經濟部長備選"},{"start":9384.496,"end":9400.573,"text":"我前面就向你請教過我們天蓋農損都用我們的農業成本的百分之二十動作是我們的補助 動作是我們的農損前面你也有說 我們陳副長也有說說這要研究 這要調整 我在那裡想不通"},{"start":9405.498,"end":9420.289,"text":"你的農損用你的成本的20%當作農損所以你秀出來的data都是很低那這個農業損失只有1.5倍啊譬如說你民眾你告訴我這間1億、2億那社長他的損失只有1.5倍就10億啊這樣差不多像委員在說的說他的收益"},{"start":9431.505,"end":9453.732,"text":"一分貝的一分貝喔 一分貝的預貨包你給他補六千塊八千塊所以說他如果好好修繩可以修二十萬至三十萬所以差太多了 我常常想你這個修到這麼高是要表示什麼 表示說我們損失很輕微這個不對啦 你等一下說要調整"},{"start":9454.372,"end":9470.284,"text":"一定 要有條件簿我先跟委員報告就是我們現在的那個天然災害救助的辦法我們會在年底因為我們每半年就會檢討一次年底的時候我們會檢討會重新修正但是我要跟委員報告一個精神天然災害救助的精神"},{"start":9470.984,"end":9494.264,"text":"它本身是希望它盡快的復耕而且天然災害的發生了以後它不是全員當然有少部分比較嚴重會全員損毀大部分的話像果樹的話它可能第一次花被打掉第二次還會再開花所以它有不同的樣態所以我們會根據不同的樣態去設計第二個部分要跟委員報告以這次從丹納斯颱風到楊柳颱風那個花家山還不談"},{"start":9495.345,"end":9504.096,"text":"我們大概現金救助會發放大概65億65.5億然後實際的損失大概是4倍啦實際的整個農業損失大概4倍將近250億到300億之間這是他講的像成本喔成本20%的"},{"start":9511.997,"end":9527.437,"text":"一定,那個水上他的生殖是五倍嘛,如果叫市民上來收養,那不算的,不廢的,但是每次秀到這麼多,都,這不是正常啦,有人覺得說,怎麼沒什麼啊,水上這麼嚴重,農民都要吃土啊,"},{"start":9529.6,"end":9547.433,"text":"不過報告委員這個面對極端氣候啊政府當然是想大力的來協助農民但考慮到國家的財政的結構跟能力我們做這樣的方式但未來他在復耕的過程當中我們還有很多的獎勵措施還可以再協助他能夠盡快的恢復正常"},{"start":9551.756,"end":9555.837,"text":"所以杯水車薪三百萬農漁牧的農民連續受准的部分我們也會納在今年年底的修正裡面一併去調整"},{"start":9571.827,"end":9591.832,"text":"國土韌性 什麼有些都一樣但是在你講韌性韌性所以我非常的期待院長我會去我店間說你做筆記的 不錯啊農業部年底會來做合理的一個檢討跟修正我們現在說的最多的緊張起來了這叫做緊張起來了"},{"start":9594.793,"end":9616.72,"text":"一定你可能不知道 你們都沒有這麼緊張我小時候都很緊張這緊張到以前是用鳳梯走到北的北緊張以前是用頂的 都在頂山那裡現在都用阿公 女子的那也有高的跟薄的薄的一支也是 薄的一支325元那些都我們若高的 都要10萬而已部長啊"},{"start":9624.167,"end":9646.602,"text":"你現在剝走 剝走什麼 你知道嗎剝走說要有有機的 要有履歷的 你才要剝走我告訴你 台獨所有農民都正常要兩分 三分沒有履歷 沒有有機 他們就燒燒的搞火花來消為主 這些人你不要剝走你剝走 我們剝走那些大農戶那些做台湯 20公頃 30公頃的那些你剝走那些錢 你就好了 你就讓它更好吃"},{"start":9654.467,"end":9683.286,"text":"那不行啦我跟委員 你講的邏輯有一點不正確我要跟委員報告就是說我們在補助的過程中也希望調整農民的一個更進步的耕作方式所以我們針對產交履歷產交履歷我們會專案輔導產交履歷是一個讓整個的產品可以追溯讓它品質更好的方式不然我們補助下去過往曾經補過一次結果第二年這些牙管都被拿去賣了"},{"start":9684.607,"end":9707.432,"text":"這個是很實際的問題所以我們希望說用產交履歷去做一些現在的農民 現在的財產都收育苗的所在一棟是五塊三十塊你蓋來的房子 我也不太清楚我不是沒有在種所以我要跟你說的就是這些農民帶多少你要補助 你就要給他們補助不是說 交苗我們有補助"},{"start":9709.322,"end":9730.733,"text":"沒有啊 你就這麼多農民反彈 再抽一四個大家都走到要死了 再查一下好不好 保證這要收農 這要都是我們要照顧的那個大農夫沒什麼要照顧的 他活得很好生的啦再來 我們這間洋流颱風啦什麼農田損失的啦 農業損失的忙啊都漸漸有在復原啊 對不對 部長 有在復原嗎"},{"start":9737.833,"end":9758.921,"text":"因為網市什麼的這個網市的部分我們現在特別是針對現在還找不到工有沒有的這些網市我們都另外提供獎勵金讓他先把他的網子透過回收場回收所以這個部分我想我們已經積極在做而且是提供八成的一個補助八成的補助對 八成的補助"},{"start":9759.841,"end":9776.626,"text":"農田水利署這次丹納斯颱風整個提供了76.82億那76.82億是由地方政府提報上來的然後這個部分我們也已經地方政府已經提報計畫了然後我們會在近短的時間內核定以後就可以開始施工"},{"start":9782.352,"end":9804.937,"text":"各種補助的反應措施變化的這個彈性相當大又快速災難一直來這種災難是一直來誰執政都一樣全球氣候變遷所以我們現在一天到晚在說國土韌性韌性韌性這真的要用用膽分啦這不是親切公共的來 再來今天節目很多防災韌性這件事我們"},{"start":9812.19,"end":9829.643,"text":"休旅遊 自來水 我很感謝我們印度 經濟部小溜球現在一年去到英國 二百萬人超過在地又大 常住人口差不多一萬人 社體人口一萬多"},{"start":9830.664,"end":9851.45,"text":"原來的一個池水池是五千噸現在電鍋要再造成一個五千多噸這樣就要滿多噸這大家很會任性 大家安心有時候欠電 又欠水所以很感謝議長 那天你就不去所以我要再說的是 摩登水口的水"},{"start":9857.233,"end":9883.928,"text":"經過車廂 經過房商在那裡開放之後來到那邊大概分幾千里去往北 東港 臨海那裡去來到一百公里以前水工都掛在舊的旁邊舊燈就在燈現在我們主來水工是自己用水管橋做得不錯所以也看到有在保養一百公里 所以"},{"start":9884.963,"end":9902.933,"text":"我們修理區有儲水設施我是要建議 還是要請求我們的議長你給我答應一下 檳榔這裡天氣八八風災天天天四天 天水天八天那已經是人壽的最高極限了"},{"start":9903.763,"end":9928.624,"text":"我跟院長包括那個社會媒體醫院都開放讓外面的人來洗澡我們就打水 跟我們八軍團的來一四個又去國俱來買水我跟他們買水就買一百多萬一三天再水下來 電電這都是 這過去但是我是要建議說剛好台北我們要找地 我們要蓋一個儲水槽我們有經濟部 出一個我們 習慣東 習慣東 我都沒有"},{"start":9933.029,"end":9956.248,"text":"我們來評估看看如果適合的地方我們來評估就有需要啦 不會鞠躬勒勒躬來教養然後要回去就沒有了水也沒人吃所以這很重要啦所以一定沒問題吧我請部長來評估因應當地的需要看這邊要克服一些其他的困難如果更多就更好啦好 來"},{"start":9958.735,"end":9983.52,"text":"我們現在一整晚大家都在擦光電板上 有什麼什麼的像我們的環境部長跟我說他跟我說水口 製紡池 水池 水庫裡面有在做環評的 社會上沒有人做結果沒有 我們常常查 新加坡有在做"},{"start":9984.762,"end":10000.441,"text":"韓國有在做印尼也有在做印尼喔所以要返品啦你都沒在返品啊路上也沒在返品河山場裡面也沒在返品都沒在返品這樣有煞煞的 很好"},{"start":10003.655,"end":10027.015,"text":"我介紹一下 你說新加坡跟印尼跟韓國是自己做 但是政府並沒有一個規範是多少但是我們政府要規定幾分幾個 他們是沒有規定幾分幾個所以我們早就有關注到這件事情了所以目前全世界的標準是還沒有 但是他是自己做"},{"start":10027.919,"end":10046.31,"text":"現在我們的光電在自動式燈頭、在對面燈頭會汙染,剛才我們農業部長在說不汙染,明明就是路上的光電板,因為有焦、曬、有什麼火,所以用清潔劑來沖、來洗,這也舒適。你說在水庫、在自動式燈頭,你都用清水來轉,自動式燈頭就不焦了,去放曬了。"},{"start":10055.272,"end":10064.899,"text":"他有用高壓水或低壓水來沖洗啊 這個是允許的現在不可以擺在自動池有一個交通管制叫他不可以擺在這樣有嘛 所以"},{"start":10067.503,"end":10090.183,"text":"他如果要比較嚴格就是說這個清潔劑是要用分解有機的 要燒的環境部你還要好好研究都沒有 都沒有 都沒有水源區都不可以啦都不可以啦 清潔鏈都不可以 清水而已任何清潔劑都不行都要用清水瓶而已對 水 鵝裡面的水在瓶他用高壓的 高壓水噴啦"},{"start":10091.688,"end":10111.985,"text":"這樣路上會想 路上沒水所以路上要有清潔劑 一定是不是這樣說應該是這個邏輯啦 要有水平 要高壓把它裝下去就像這邊在花蓮 用高壓水槍一樣就能夠清得出來事實上用清潔劑也不是很好如果不好的清潔劑還會傷害你的那個面板"},{"start":10113.027,"end":10136.391,"text":"我們就清潔劑沒辦法了包委員 那個鳥也不能說有面板沒有面板牠都會掉下去東西那個其實也都會掉到水庫所以其實我們那個水庫都會經過淨水場我們有那個量測都是核物安全標準而且水質非常好 可以放心再來 那個棚山 現在要設風場在那天"},{"start":10139.676,"end":10156.492,"text":"市長 今天你有談到 市長你也有說這個地方要設風場 空間很大你今天要明確跟我說 你的態度是什麼因為他們要來抗爭今天你們說了 他們特別要來還是不來所以我也在跟他們說 但是你今天跟他們說一下說這到底如果沒有什麼條件 他想你要反對這也要做了啦"},{"start":10166.26,"end":10189.231,"text":"我們環評委員是非常嚴格對這個非常敏感的所以請鄉親們放心不用大老遠跑到臺北來抗議我們會嚴格幫大家把關外港的環境部要看 環境部多高那來撲可能不太好那來騙人也不太好不需要做勞使動眾的事情所以你們的看法就是"},{"start":10193.178,"end":10196.059,"text":"發動反風車大聯盟已經成立 我也要支持但是台東管政府就明確說 不能做"},{"start":10219.429,"end":10233.901,"text":"這樣就比較安心了風車要低頻 噪音放下來不是辦法好 再來我們農業科學園區裡面現在那三個製縫池現在已經要放光電了那機器頭都斷斷的了我告訴你 你都沒在放頻這樣放火怎麼補 這樣不行啦"},{"start":10247.598,"end":10270.538,"text":"我們現在正在研究當中 到底多大的面積這個案子我會再去了解一下在這個敏感的地區 山坡地包括濕地等等它達到一定的面積的時候 一定的規模我認為還是要經過比較科學跟專業的依據我們才能夠說服地方這個政策的推動才會順暢"},{"start":10272.299,"end":10286.648,"text":"現在的規定就是包括特農的部分還有環境保護區還有重要濕地野生保護區跟國家公園這個本身就要做環評的"},{"start":10288.189,"end":10303.36,"text":"本來就現在的規定就是要 河山場或是山坡地面積比較大河山場五百公頃 幾乎建國時代的位置所以要一個特區 算什麼地方可以蓋蓋光電板 現在蓋五十五公頃現在你的邊坡這裡 也是我們越來越多不斷我看我們還要再造一座 如果你看到就要拖到五五了"},{"start":10313.752,"end":10317.818,"text":"這個不是河山廠的出來口河山廠蓋的光電板是在廠區裡面絕對沒有蓋到廠外"},{"start":10329.513,"end":10351.876,"text":"我拜過的時候 我有叫我的同事去檢查有三個原因 我說河山廠那個當然有一些開發有一些裸露的 但是它量沒有太大最主要是銀河灣 現在有一個銀河灣因為那個是外來種第二個附近有一個水利的工程希望說能夠趕快完成 可以把污水化的處理"},{"start":10352.276,"end":10372.933,"text":"那目前的這個排水不是從這個河山場造成的這個是我們目前我們初步的勘察那陸國安委喔 一定有那陸國安委那國家的山府都過了 死了了啦所以這個是很可惜啦現在的業者大家也要叫來 再來我們的勞碧都停這裡 勞碧都停這個例如說三寶你自己動起來嘛"},{"start":10378.984,"end":10392.148,"text":"環境部是 我們退回了退回了齁 對 對這也要這樣補完啦這要再下去因為它會激激的啊現在在種平地茶 七百多公頃你現在要再下去蓋光電蓋五十億這樣還比較誇張的 一定我告訴你來 下一張"},{"start":10400.786,"end":10424.476,"text":"這就是一天來播在平坑大旁邊在三明飛中央議員傳證說要在金門上面看太陽能板 光電板那是要做什麼 要把我們的祖先遮陰那就夠陰啊 要再遮陰 怕死人沒辦法 金門耶 你來看光電板"},{"start":10426.069,"end":10450.681,"text":"在那邊燒 要去燒壩 又走到旁邊走到這裡我沒有去如果有去 差不多就說我在亂的所以這個誇張 全台灣沒有公務會蓋光電盤他不會放在那個木上面 他是在走道的地方有的要蓋 這些人祖先幾百年了 都住在這裡這樣不行啦 不行啦 好不好"},{"start":10451.821,"end":10476.112,"text":"這種不宜的地方我們在當初設想或開放的時候就應該把他這個不宜的地方要把它去除掉這樣才不會造成大家的不信任公務的旁邊做停車場我沒看過啦如果他只是一個建築物的上面或是一個另外空地那是可以考慮絕對不要在這個墓地上面來做任何的搭架公務旁的停車場"},{"start":10477.307,"end":10498.358,"text":"時間一萬 謝謝我們現在來講醫療韌性請新出爐的部長石部長很認真跟我們財政部長來財政部 麻煩請財政部備詢財政部 財政部麻煩請財政部備詢"},{"start":10504.909,"end":10524.914,"text":"院長 這是88這個莫拉克風災的時候那個時候這個是我本人那個時候是用平行車在載繁殖再來下一張這是用貨櫃車衣繩都遭毀遭毀車都停在二高的"},{"start":10530.083,"end":10545.287,"text":"路肩然後我們用貨櫃車去把醫生拉回來都陰水喔可能貨櫃車我就曬這醫生這樣一條一條跳下來我一條一條給他照那個時辰水久醫生這樣熱忱就拚了很感動欸那飛過車頂的時候還有爪捏爪也怕陰水捏麻痺的枕骨可能腳也會軟掉喔還有下一張但是現在嚴重捏"},{"start":10560.211,"end":10576.536,"text":"現在我們的重症醫師都遭了大家都遭了開業 大家都遭了遵守因為這個事情 你聽我告訴你你不要做脾氣 那個越來越嚴重否定 副部長要做什麼"},{"start":10578.744,"end":10605.447,"text":"跟委員報告這個急重症部分當然我們一方面這個今年的健保的挹注也比較比往年多很多啦所以各醫院的點子都上來了甚至在南部啊高屏區都達到點子一塊錢那另一方面我們就調整這個支付標準把急重症的這個跟人力有關係的支付標準也都是優先調升所以今年急重症就調了四十幾億"},{"start":10606.568,"end":10621.117,"text":"那另外護理的部分我們也在調護理費我們也投入了25億一定 我跟你報告這幾年真的時事部長很認真 邱部長也很認真你也很認真很多藝術 很多費用過來捐補這是事實但是這幾年要報告這錢都是家裡拿的家裡護理師 家裡醫師 放射前驗者 都在那裡提供但是醫生的薪資15年沒掉進來"},{"start":10636.531,"end":10661.704,"text":"我也要替醫生講談報告醫生為什麼 大家要再照他沒有說到重點重點是在哪裡 市部長當然有一部分是因為在診所開業跟在醫院的醫師他的稅負也有落差因為在醫院裡面是屬於受僱那麼在診所裡面是執行業務所的"},{"start":10662.701,"end":10686.304,"text":"兩者的說服之間也出現有一些不相稱的地方所以這個也跟委員報告我們也在研究那麼在醫院裡面的所有的這個工作人員除了這個主治醫師外他都是適用勞基法那麼只有主治醫師那麼因為業務的關係病人的生命"},{"start":10688.574,"end":10710.407,"text":"臨時性 緊急性 持續性不同所以沒有納入勞基法美國總統川普說加班費 值班費 免稅甚至是服務業的繳費 也免稅現在醫生 重症的醫生在病院一班一班要死 你還要卡稅"},{"start":10711.762,"end":10734.816,"text":"再加上現在的醫生的稅差不多有2個位置2個包位的全薪去納稅他一般在那裡在那裡再加稅大家也知道啊去診所稅務比較淡嘛你們突然間說兩個部隊說要研究研究研究研究到現在到底是什麼我們的重症醫療的方法院長 總院長你現在是理想到嗎"},{"start":10740.831,"end":10752.516,"text":"你是POWERFUL你一定會 一定會成事如果不照料料我們在座的各位包括你 包括我 包括我們的家人他要怎麼幫忙去跟他拚沒人去挑他"},{"start":10753.922,"end":10775.348,"text":"那個也說不會喔所以醫生你一個月而已如果不這樣繼續流失越來越嚴重我們還是要尊敬跟感謝每個醫師當他投入這個行業的時候他都對自己的工作的使命都是非常崇高的但不能因為這樣變成一個不被尊重那我也承認過去一段時間我們對護理人員跟相關人員的這個"},{"start":10776.852,"end":10789.706,"text":"需求的提高做的比較多那實際上這兩天我也跟部長提到未來我們怎麼對醫師來做更多的一些在權益上面的維護那您說到了這個加班不進入"},{"start":10791.345,"end":10819.958,"text":"稅的這個部分財政部應該有一個想法我們來聽財政部的說法好 跟委員報告目前的稅法規定如果是為了僱主的目的如果他要執行業務那麼支領的這個加班費目前如果說這個加班費沒有超過規定的標準的話他是不計入他的薪資收入來課稅的那現在問題就是組織醫師這一部分他不適用導期法那他也沒有具有公務員的身份"},{"start":10820.838,"end":10836.637,"text":"這一部分因為他的加班的時數跟他加班的這個資期的標準他目前都還沒訂出來所以這一部分可能要麻煩請這個衛福部這邊先訂出來以後我們就會根據稅法的規定那麼提供一個非常公平合理的一個"},{"start":10837.239,"end":10843.403,"text":"加班免稅的一個規定跟財政部開過三次會議也有在這個那會員委員也主持了兩次的協商那當然剛剛陳儒這個財政部規範裡面提到的要有一個加班的"},{"start":10864.857,"end":10884.257,"text":"這個規定 那個包含這個上限標準那這個我們大概也有一些共識那麼以這個80到100個小時也不能夠太高 過勞也不好但是以80到100小時間的這個加班時數來做一個上限"},{"start":10884.957,"end":10891.041,"text":"再來就是這個加班費如何採任的問題還在跟財政部這邊在"},{"start":10915.598,"end":10925.886,"text":"過勞 所以一定要在合理的範圍當中那這個部分財政部應該會來支持來來來 陳貴廟先生 各位好 跟我講一下不好 尿尿看喔 不是辦法這真的在那裡 每個月都在跑往紅醫師 陳醫師 每天都在那裡唱歌而已說他要跑 他說廢物太重 他沒辦法啊所以去診所 客廳啊"},{"start":10940.635,"end":10966.144,"text":"所以這要怎麼讓他們做下去公家便宜 你們看公家便宜大家蠢蠢利動那一家伴侶幾百塊啊你是要叫我們怎麼做下去啦你有 當時全十八個月 今年你給我回答一個月 兩個月給我今年來研究好不好我們今年來研究這個方案出來來 今年今年 明年就適用了明年我們研究出來以後會有個時程再跟委員報告 好 謝謝"},{"start":10966.909,"end":10989.996,"text":"好感謝好謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員質詢謝謝主委員長各相關部會首長備詢謝謝報告委員會在議場二樓旁聽的來自新竹中華神龍汽車協會我們掌聲歡迎接下來我們上午最後一位質詢委員張宏祿委員請質詢"},{"start":11010.183,"end":11029.259,"text":"我先請交通部長麻煩再請交通部長麻煩請交通部長備詢新北市太阪輕軌的規劃路線已經報布了嗎"},{"start":11038.468,"end":11051.902,"text":"報告委員他們有報布目前是在可行性研究當中鐵道局也正在審查當中其實這條路線部長你應該也知道這個我已經"},{"start":11054.434,"end":11081.448,"text":"很久很久就在關注這一條你也跟我討論過好幾次本來是從社後捷運變社後輕軌然後現在又延伸到這個太阪輕軌當初其實我也跟吳部長跟林佳龍部長其實也爭取了我們交通部給他們好幾百萬的可行性評估計畫的經費可行性評估的預算"},{"start":11085.455,"end":11106.709,"text":"而且我也多次的質詢比如說在2023年9月17號我們前交通部王國才部長他就有說要將社後支線納入太阪輕軌規劃案的條件之一"},{"start":11108.29,"end":11132.132,"text":"這王國才部長有講的然後在2023年10月17號我對在總質詢的時候王國才部長也在這邊也是說公開說我們會支持這個社會輕軌而且陳建仁那時候院長他也說確實有必要那時候的院長"},{"start":11133.533,"end":11139.929,"text":"跟交通部部長都說要支持而且經費也都準備好了那時候都有這樣說"},{"start":11142.169,"end":11168.542,"text":"我在2024年的3月8號我也就再次的質詢那時候王部長又公開說了他們提出來中央該給多少補助就給多少補助這是沒有問題的錢都準備好了現在他們報上來這裡我不知道部長他們有沒有把涉後輕軌納入"},{"start":11170.539,"end":11198.482,"text":"報告委員 目前我們在太阪的輕軌的部分它可行線研究裡面確實是有留這個岔道也就是說未來我們的這個延伸射後線的這個延伸的部分是有留這個可能性這個可能性是有留著但目前新北市政府給我們的回報是說目前還沒有找到適合的路還沒有找到適合的路不過委員剛剛在講的沒有錯就是過去您在委員會質詢也好或者是說"},{"start":11199.102,"end":11214.055,"text":"您也有找我討論過這個事情交通部目前的立場也沒有改變對於這件事情我們依然是支持希望可以做得到我要在這邊跟部長您說一下來 你看一下這個"},{"start":11217.935,"end":11235.017,"text":"就是原來王國才部長等等的那時候我們費了很大的心力這個是規劃路線 什麼都有了所以新北市政府是不是公然欺騙所有的市民他們說沒有規劃路線"},{"start":11237.66,"end":11247.738,"text":"這都在這裡喔他們公然欺騙喔 對不對這個他們現在新北市政府說預留廊道跟預留轉接點"},{"start":11249.984,"end":11274.603,"text":"有預留就是現在不做而已啊要等以後做嘛 對不對是不是這個意思我們要預留未來的可能性就是希望未來可以做攝後支線的這個部分對嘛 這是新北市政府態度不是交通部的態度新北市政府是說未來再做吧他的意思是這樣嘛沒錯嘛好 所以我一直覺得這個要一併處理"},{"start":11276.926,"end":11301.839,"text":"我希望我們交通部要堅持立場一併處理我為什麼要這樣子講因為新北市政府一直欺騙新北市市民說規劃路線是在中正路中正路太小了他隱瞞了這條路線不讓新北市的市民知道早就有這條路線為什麼很簡單這是我的政見在選舉的時候"},{"start":11305.154,"end":11330.596,"text":"另外一個國民黨的人他是反對社會有捷運的啊 對不對我們不能為了選舉然後模式的我們板橋我們社會十幾萬居民的權利對不對吧 部長所有的交通建設尤其是像板橋這麼人口擁擠跟密集的地方我相信很多的市民跟鄉親都很期待有更好的交通建設這個我們要一起來努力"},{"start":11331.636,"end":11350.097,"text":"對 我跟你講建設是不分黨派的我覺得我們尤其是中央政府我們一定要照顧所有的人我不反對太本輕軌的建設但交通部從以前到現在就已經一句話而已你新北市你報上來我錢就給你了"},{"start":11351.255,"end":11367.563,"text":"對不對但是新北市政府刻意不把這個路線劃進去他是對不起我們新北市市民尤其是我們板橋的市民他可能也覺得他任期快到了他剩下的做也沒多久了"},{"start":11368.884,"end":11392.326,"text":"那如果這樣的話不能對不起我們新北市民尤其是板橋市民啊交通部的錢都準備好了我們應該要求他把這條路線規劃進來啊我不知道部長你的看法我們目前正在審查當中針對這個太阪輕軌的部分那當時我們交通部確實也有希望說把涉後的延伸線的部分也一併進來"},{"start":11393.727,"end":11407.186,"text":"目前當然我們還在審查的過程當中我們去了解說審查的必要條件是哪些如果這一條是重要我們當然會一併希望他能夠一併討論我希望是這一點交通部要堅持"},{"start":11408.226,"end":11425.16,"text":"要堅持這一條一定要放下來你這麼多錢都放下去了你新北市政府他現在預留一個廊道預留一個轉接口那未來如果要再二次施工這個工程會比現在一次性的施工"},{"start":11426.261,"end":11440.576,"text":"更好還是更不好當然是一次性施工大家可以更早完成這件事當然是比較好的而且工程的技術門檻也比較低吧一起規劃吧 對不對所以部長我必須要在這邊要跟你說這個要堅持住"},{"start":11445.521,"end":11456.159,"text":"這個要堅持住不能讓新北市亂搞也不能讓我們板橋在這邊十幾萬而且現在是十幾萬喔在未來"},{"start":11457.614,"end":11481.164,"text":"人口會更多那邊是重化區而且現在阪南縣每天大家都車子都搭不上捷運這部長你知道吧都非常的擁擠不只擁擠是坐不上去我也開過好多次開過協調會你們的人應該有跟你講過所以部長我們可不可以堅持"},{"start":11482.505,"end":11489.233,"text":"這個部分我們來堅持好 謝謝你那我不好意思我請一下卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":11498.036,"end":11517.197,"text":"謝謝張委員好不好意思這個院長剛剛我跟陳部長講的院長都有聽到我真的是希望說這個交通部我們陳部長剛剛也有說了那我也要在這邊再拜託這院長我們的施政我們的建設我們的補助"},{"start":11517.978,"end":11534.564,"text":"真的要以人民需求來考量啦我們不能為了新北市政府他自己的選舉去幫他背書啦我真的要拜託院長也支持陳部長這個我們的對這個色後輕軌的這一個態度我不知道院長"},{"start":11536.164,"end":11548.713,"text":"能不能支持我 替我們板橋民眾說一下話不只交通部 我想我們整個市政都是以人民的需求為出發點不會考慮到黨派或選舉各項的利益跟因素"},{"start":11550.376,"end":11569.17,"text":"現在是新北市在考慮黨派跟選舉所以我希望院長能夠堅持替我們板橋的市民某一點公平如果部裡面可以主動詢問 主動關心或主動做一些動作的話也可以這麼去主動跟新北市政府來說要求溝通"},{"start":11569.75,"end":11591.322,"text":"好 謝謝院長院長你先請坐沒有關係沒有 你先坐一下再來 部長我上次有質詢高鐵進勞卡可不可以搭高鐵這件事我不知道高鐵這邊他們研議的如何部長導考"},{"start":11592.355,"end":11613.9,"text":"報告委員我目前在設備上面應該是沒有問題就是說如果是要那個卡包含悠遊卡也好或者是銀行的聯名卡如果把敬老的這個點數放在裡面要用這個卡是沒有問題但是敬老的點數到底可不可以使用在這裡面可能我們需要跨單位大家來溝通這個部長之前"},{"start":11617.765,"end":11640.419,"text":"台鐵可以用敬老卡搭台鐵也是我努力了五六年才可以搭的我跟你講一個很簡單台鐵為什麼現在可以台鐵當初也是這樣講這個敬老卡到底怎麼樣怎麼樣他們沒有辦法控制不過還是上次我諮詢說你只要把它建制完成"},{"start":11641.482,"end":11649.621,"text":"我跟你講地方政府人家就會做台鐵非常明顯的例子就在這裡了而且我上次有"},{"start":11651.143,"end":11677.571,"text":"總諮詢的時候這個主任長也說要支持因為我們花的錢不多七千多萬而已 對不對在整個政府裡面的總預算七千多萬其實我認為是還合理然後讓我們所有的長者進勞卡他可以去搭高鐵我跟你講地方政府就會配合台鐵一開始也說沒有結果人家現在有的縣市"},{"start":11679.071,"end":11695.283,"text":"一個月可以有300點搭台鐵了那如果你把它建置好人家有的縣市人家有的有1000多有的有多少人家他要500點可以搭高鐵他就可以搭一趟了我真的覺得說要讓"},{"start":11697.2,"end":11724.402,"text":"長者有方便性我不知道部長你的看法我覺得這個方便性可以提供的話我們當然要盡量來做目前其實不管是用悠遊卡或者是一卡通只要是跟銀行有聯名的儲值的功能在高鐵上面坐自由座是可以用的所以縣市政府如果他的敬老卡是綁悠遊卡或者是綁一卡通基本上現在要搭自由座是可以的"},{"start":11725.93,"end":11742.91,"text":"我知道那個是有的縣市並不是所有的縣市我們只要花了這7000多萬我們把跟台鐵一樣你把這個建制好了我的所有的敬老卡我都可以去搭高鐵"},{"start":11743.971,"end":11762.179,"text":"我覺得把它建制好台灣是一個進步的國家我們花了這些錢把這個把它建制好地方政府就會配合了啊我的意思是這樣部長你懂嗎我在態度上是支持啦我在態度上支持我來跟高鐵公司來這邊演繹看看"},{"start":11762.919,"end":11781.075,"text":"因為畢竟他們是上市櫃公司我們來跟他們研議看看看可不可以做這方面的服務報告委員這個在推動電子票證的過程我們必須努力如果電子票證的推動過程加上系統的前後台都能夠完整的話那目前台鐵的進導卡也只有12個縣市是開放的"},{"start":11783.197,"end":11799.463,"text":"那我們去了解台鐵這樣的經驗推動到現在的經驗或許朝這個方向已經是有一個可以依循的方式我請交通部你們就去排除現在的困難我想下次在面對委員質詢之前我們應該把這個事情做一個定案"},{"start":11800.243,"end":11818.297,"text":"好啦 這要拜託啦其實問題不困難解決啦交通部你只要補助高鐵這筆錢就問題解決了啦就是很簡單的一句話嘛你補助他做 他就做了嘛 對不對那我覺得這個補助雖然他是一個民營上市貴的公司"},{"start":11819.378,"end":11843.864,"text":"他是全台灣人都在通用的我覺得這一點可能要拜託了好不好好 謝謝請回 院長你也請回我再請一下文化部長麻煩請文化部長備詢部長我想請問一下我們板橋兒童未來館現在的進度如何"},{"start":11845.063,"end":11863.905,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心這個一切都按照原來進度最近我們跟新北市政府也開了很多會對於很多細部的動線都討論完今年9月1號國家從未來管理新建工程基地的一個勘察由行政院公共委員會來勘察過"},{"start":11865.406,"end":11866.347,"text":"建造的取得會不會有問題"},{"start":11886.499,"end":11905.253,"text":"到目前為止一切按照進度中間有一些細節我已經跟新北市討論了很多原來有一些小小的困難空橋的問題解決了嗎因為原來這幾個問題都蠻困難但新北市政府也全力協助我們"},{"start":11907.549,"end":11932.844,"text":"所以到目前為止一切都按照原定計畫沒有問題所以建造拿到的日期不會拖延喔不會絕對不會喔到目前我們就按照進度我只問建造拿到的日期會不會拖延會不會拖延啦我們盡快按照我們原來進度嘛這個會不會拖延不是啦部長我知道你也不是建築專家"},{"start":11937.742,"end":11963.677,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各相關部會首長備詢謝謝謝謝會員會我們在議場二樓旁邊又來了一批好朋友台北市議員陳秉甫議員志工團的好朋友我們掌聲歡迎大家會員會今天上午的質詢到此為止再次謝謝林月琴委員 羅廷薇委員一起來參與我們上午"},{"start":11964.636,"end":11975.707,"text":"行政院院長的施政質詢我們現在呢要上午質詢到此為止我們現在休息到下午兩點三十分繼續開會進行質詢先來休息"},{"start":21549.724,"end":21574.983,"text":"抱怨会现在我们继续开会进行施政报告之质询现在在一场二楼旁听的来自台北教育大学管理系的所有同学们我们掌声欢迎各位另外一批坐在一场二楼来自台湾公民参与协会的好朋友们我们掌声欢迎大家到里好"},{"start":21577.069,"end":21601.854,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請邱政軍同學對不起我講錯了對不起邱政軍委員請質詢謝謝老師好院長好我們有請這個卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21613.444,"end":21637.67,"text":"我還是稱邱委員好院長好我想請教一下我們苗栗的自來水普及率只有87.6%比全國平均95.5%低了快8個百分點我們蔡英文政府在2017年也就是在自來水普及率93.1%的時候明確定下目標就是希望2024年能夠達到95%"},{"start":21640.424,"end":21660.015,"text":"那KPI設得很清楚所以從106年到110年全國普及率升了1.2個百分點那平均一年成長0.3那蔡政府的這個95%的目標4年就達成了那我想請問一下我們賴清德政府他有定下這個目標嗎"},{"start":21661.96,"end":21673.153,"text":"我們未來有五年有計畫用兩百億五年的計畫兩百億希望把我們的這個那有沒有算過多少個百分點要提升多少"},{"start":21674.585,"end":21693.41,"text":"好像不到10個百分點是一般委員因為苗栗他山區是比較多偏遠地區比較多所以施桌上會稍微困難但是我們會加大力道本來這新的第五期本來就會加強比較偏遠地區的就是額度"},{"start":21695.951,"end":21718.573,"text":"我幫你這個初算了一下苗栗會從百分之八十未來五年如果我們投入的將近八十更高到八十七有大概七個鄉鎮這個自來水補給率低於70%那有兩個鄉鎮其實就是我們部長講的就是我們斯坦跟泰安都兩個斯坦只有3.39"},{"start":21720.214,"end":21737.521,"text":"那泰安只有2.27那當然是因為它是山區啦所以這個部分當然我不能這樣拿來比較我這樣大概算了一下6萬戶每戶大概2.4萬人大概14.4萬人全國人口數總共是2430萬人從普及率95.81%算起"},{"start":21744.364,"end":21771.391,"text":"就算是全部結算5年最多只能變成96.4%5年106億 提200億大概提升到0.6%到0.8%左右審計部資料說按照現在的速度要248年大家才有自來水可以用我們沒有一個具體的目標嗎保安委員 所以因為在比較偏但是我們這個200億裡面的確有它的分配比如說"},{"start":21773.479,"end":21788.732,"text":"原住民地區它就會分配有一定的額度不會說金額會被其他的挪用走那是第一個第二個就是說因為你還是要如果要完全的接自來水管的話有時候會有它的困難那個時間也會拉長"},{"start":21789.913,"end":21805.466,"text":"但是我們會趕快用至少這個減一次奶水可以我知道卓院長上任之後他在去年我們這個整個有調過本來是每戶60萬提高到80萬那水庫周邊面100萬這個我謝謝院長但是我發現這樣速度還是很慢"},{"start":21808.588,"end":21824.281,"text":"而且我看到數據非常奇怪提升自來水普及率照理來說應該要越來越高可是數據非常奇怪我們賴總統上任之後自來水普及率不增反減這是什麼原因從113年的6月95.81%起掉到114年的6月剩下95.55%為什麼會這樣這是你們給我的數據"},{"start":21834.178,"end":21853.204,"text":"我們是持續的在增加越到後端它這個速度會越慢它為什麼會減少呢那普及率為什麼會減少照理是人口成長才會減少嗎我們分母沒變大那為什麼這個數字是變小的呢這個數字我們再查證一下我猜到可能是統計不一樣"},{"start":21854.404,"end":21881.483,"text":"就是你們統計的方式不一樣統計的基礎可能會有落差還是你們換了方式在做計算但是苗栗的這個是一定的基準就像您剛才提到的從80現在變成87我們會持續的往上我希望這樣有一些地方當然它山區說實在要完全把管線牽完城確實不容易而且成本非常大但是有一些人口密集的部分還請我們這邊"},{"start":21883.814,"end":21894.633,"text":"行政院這邊多多幫忙所以剛剛委員也特別提到了我們把我們的那個比較偏遠地方的那個金額調高了最上限調高了那就至少可以把它"},{"start":21895.314,"end":21916.631,"text":"地方上的事情我們會來協助可能中間要牽扯到加壓站什麼的然後後期的維護管理我會協調各鄉鎮市公所來協助另外再一樣還是同樣水的問題就明德水庫這一座水庫一直負責苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的自來水供應每天大概供應1.8萬噸民生用水"},{"start":21919.213,"end":21928.622,"text":"大概有1.6萬戶居民使用但是近年來民人水庫的角色其實在改變了中央政策也非常明確要朝觀光休息使用來轉型"},{"start":21930.086,"end":21957.059,"text":"那像海棠島的這個發展水上的休息區還有環湖步道這個自行車步道有的在施工啦那未來還要結合在地的這個旅遊還有農業的灌溉那這樣的轉型其實我們都樂見因為其實它的水質本來就不好但是我也要同樣考慮一個問題那民生用水怎麼辦現在是苗栗市跟投屋鄉的鄉親在使用這個水"},{"start":21957.95,"end":21974.31,"text":"那我知道我們鯉魚灘水庫在這個南水北宋工程在明年底會全數這個全線完成那有沒有可能有沒有可能這個時候如果它通水的時候給我們苗栗市跟投物鄉的這個鄉民來使用"},{"start":21975.232,"end":22000.775,"text":"經濟部有一個更長遠的一個構想跟計畫部長來答問我想那個民生水庫可能民生用水這個部分我們還是希望可以保留啦因為民生用水還是比較重要第二個就是說我們也知道說縣政府已經針對那個天花湖的部分已經有在對 天花湖水庫我們如果天花湖蓋好以後我想那個民生水庫轉型我們再重新調配可是那沒那麼快啊 對不對"},{"start":22002.158,"end":22009.543,"text":"這個如果其實這個如果接應該不難啦它管線就已經有了嘛大條管線都有啦南水北送其實難度應該不大"},{"start":22011.307,"end":22038.992,"text":"對 但是我們還是希望明德水棍還是我為什麼要這樣講就是我們每天我算過就是我們那個工程送上去每年每天大概可以供應20萬噸的用水那目前其實我們使用率加苗栗頭顧地區只有1.8萬公噸那在未來其實它還有很大的空間可以使用在短期之內主要是平常都沒有問題但是我們很怕"},{"start":22039.372,"end":22060.345,"text":"我們現階段只使用5.5萬噸再加上1.8其實還好因為現在極端氣候常常會有枯水或者是等等一些情況那這樣啦好不好當然啦就是說在平常在管線接嘛對不對那萬一真的有碰到這個時候我們還可以用明熱水庫的水仙來做這個應急嘛"},{"start":22061.704,"end":22075.715,"text":"不然這個部分我們在有一個規劃以後再跟委員報告一下看看怎麼樣的情況但是我們還是希望就是說民生水庫在短期之內民生用水的它功能或調配的功能還是有它的存在性"},{"start":22076.149,"end":22100.268,"text":"我知道我沒有叫你廢掉啦我沒有叫你廢掉只是說我為什麼要這樣講就是明德水庫現在是環境部列出全台高度優氧化的水而且這個水質早就被點名是最差等級了苗栗市民跟頭福鄉的鄉親還在使用這個水苗栗水庫是水庫大縣會把它轉為比較是調度使用的這個在比較極端氣候的時候"},{"start":22101.444,"end":22119.564,"text":"我想這個沒有理由讓我們繼續喝這個水吧因為我沒有叫你現在說因為是你有南水北送所以我才提這個意見今天如果沒有那當然這個工程太大可是今天有這個管線我們回去再來協助好不好好的"},{"start":22120.024,"end":22145.641,"text":"另外我們天花湖水庫2013年就通過評鑑如果更長期天花湖水庫蓋好大概就沒有問題了就整個可以報告委員在明德水庫還是在供應民生用水的時候我也要求經濟部跟台水確保這個明德水庫的水質是在我們一定可控安全的情況底下才能這樣做這個一定會達到委員的要求我兩個都考慮一下啦好不好另外還有就是說我們天花湖水庫"},{"start":22147.863,"end":22170.223,"text":"213年就通過環評那地方意見分歧了12年那現在中間廠商任之後大家有在協調地方商人也有在溝通那其實大致上大概是沒什麼大問題那我想請問一下現在進度在哪裡我們預算編了一點沒有 主要還是地方政府如果說他的意見真的已經溝通好的話你們預算編了嗎今年會編嗎 有編嗎"},{"start":22174.531,"end":22192.537,"text":"工程款還沒有你還要徵收現在土地取得還有很多的評估我們再跟苗栗縣政府確定一下如果真的是沒有問題我記得開了三場的地方說明會已經開了三場所以地方上的聲音好像大家都不會像上次這樣"},{"start":22193.337,"end":22220.555,"text":"如果地方都贊成的話我想這個很重要嘛因為天安無雪部蓋好之後是對我們整個科技產業的非常重要的一個環節然後我再請教就是我們副總統蕭美琴在接受加拿大媒體專訪說我們承諾在美國投資不只是台積電還有整個生態系都要過去就是從供應商到設計商甚至其他晶片製造公司"},{"start":22221.115,"end":22232.637,"text":"那我想請問這具整個生態系是不是意味著台灣未來不只台積電赴美連中油林組件還有我們上油材料 IC設計甚至風窗測試業者都要過去"},{"start":22233.691,"end":22253.598,"text":"事實上報告委員在台灣半導體的生態體系基本上我們的設備跟材料也是國外提供的這是我們未來執政的方向嗎沒有 比如說來講美國硬材它本來就是在美國所以它在美國供應給台灣的台積電美國的台積電在當地的"},{"start":22256.299,"end":22277.712,"text":"你們不擔心我們台灣的整個整個這個東西都掏空跑到美國去那我們台灣怎麼辦他不用從台灣的公司搬東西去美國因為他美國本來他就是在我們的人才過不過去人才來講的話我們是第一批去如果他這個settle down以後這些人才是要回來的"},{"start":22278.069,"end":22296.89,"text":"我希望這樣子啦 還是要以台灣為主你們不要以為不要都把台灣整個最寶貴的東西拉到美國去那台灣到時候什麼都沒有我們怎麼跟下一代交代不會 不會 隸屬台灣好不好 那再問 就是說桃竹苗大矽谷推動計畫到底有沒有要做"},{"start":22298.918,"end":22312.375,"text":"理論上是在推動 怎麼推動你們在國內說要打造嘛然後發展AI 要留住產業 培養人才可是在國際場合又說要整個這個生態系要赴美好 桃豬苗大矽谷是我們在六大產業生活區當中"},{"start":22313.576,"end":22332.558,"text":"速度跑最快的經濟部也在推動裡面的太空相關的產業衛福部也在推動關於生意的產業另外速發部跟經濟部也在推動深圳市AI的應用產業這個都已經初步在規劃了現在就是還有包括竹南還有投奮跟厚隆三個科學園區"},{"start":22333.559,"end":22354.845,"text":"目前還要把他的這個土地用地等等還要做跟地方政府還要做一些溝通還要做一些努力包括他的都市計畫變更所以現在是由國發會來統籌是嗎報告委員其實那個桃豬苗大細股是要中央跟地方共同合作所以我們國發會成立一個桃豬苗大細股的"},{"start":22356.226,"end":22384.162,"text":"協調的這個平台那我們會根據地方的這些提案然後我們找到權責單位我們扮演溝通協調的角色這個方案基本上是在六大區域產業生活圈裡面當然我們中央跟地方一定會全力推動好 我當然看到你有這樣回答我是很高興因為我看不到你的施政重點裡面哪一頁 哪一條 哪一個項目有出現桃園 桃竹苗大溪谷計畫的這個六個字都沒有看到"},{"start":22384.522,"end":22407.671,"text":"六大區域產業生活圈裡面都有提到桃竹苗大細股那將來他還有很多包括剛剛你說的鯉魚潭這個是用水的配套還有交通的配套羊頭段的交通配套 央大也會做另外銅鑼的一個設置再生能源的一個中心國科會也是在規劃當中這個都是很多的配套當中比較屬於重要的一部分所以有沒有針對這個計畫編對然後有沒有編對這個預算"},{"start":22411.957,"end":22432.073,"text":"我們在整個六大產業生活區當中我們編列了將近2900億那些本來是外圍嘛 對不對有沒有針對這個計畫來做沒有 沒有看到啊我們可以另外提醒因為在審查預算的過程裡面如果有詳細的詢問未來在真的審查的時候就會得到更詳細的這個中間有開過會嗎有啊 有開過幾次"},{"start":22435.763,"end":22462.491,"text":"幾次喔 很多次大大小小各種六大產業生活區我們都一直持續的開會那現在整個都已經核定了這個桃園樹苗大溪谷是其中跑最快的速度最快的因為我知道這個其實鯉魚潭水庫包含鯉魚潭水庫沿館工程他是從民國九十幾年就規劃了那國道也是啦國道也是111年才核定的所以我認為這個大溪谷計畫"},{"start":22463.531,"end":22489.731,"text":"這些周邊當然它都是有相關聯沒錯但是我要講的是說這個部分本來在還沒有大溪谷計畫之前就已經在計畫在做了我有希望更明確的就是說把這個大溪谷計畫放在我們的整個計畫裡面讓我們可以去做追蹤然後當然我們也希望能夠盡快看到一個成果當然地方要配合我們會全力配合好不好這個六大產業生活區它是一個產業生活"},{"start":22490.552,"end":22507.002,"text":"一個結合 但為了要支撐這個我們有152項以上的地方建設其中都涵蓋剛剛委員講的這個都包含在內那這個才能夠讓他的各種生活機能跟交通建設跟產業需求能夠符合他的要求才能夠趁著這個六大區域能夠同時發展"},{"start":22507.642,"end":22526.821,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我再挑過一個下一個問題就是我們苗栗縣有一個義捷公車停駛那前幾天發生了一件事情就是新竹客運在9月15日停駛苗栗縣公館路線公館還有大湖路線然後"},{"start":22528.002,"end":22553.248,"text":"義捷科技公司接棒帶駛了12條客運線但是前幾天因為現在實在大環境很困難突然無預警的停駛當然我也謝謝我們交通部新竹區建立所有出面來做協調但這個問題還是存在我是希望說這個部分我們是不是有必要要檢討檢討我們中央補貼公車路線的"},{"start":22558.697,"end":22583.866,"text":"經費有沒有希望能夠往上調一點好 報告委員我們對於這個路線的補貼目前匡列了3580萬那目前的運作其實都還正常只不過這間公司確實它在財務的調度上面確實是有問題那我們現在有幾個預防的方式第一個就是說我們會介入跟了解它發薪水的整個金流的狀況如果有狀況我們會隨時預警這第一點"},{"start":22584.506,"end":22599.043,"text":"第二點我們也會跟司機也就是駕駛員的這個群組大家來組一個群組如果駕駛有反應到這樣的問題我們會馬上出面來接手那第三個就是說如果真的有這種預警性的有可能會停駛的時候"},{"start":22599.443,"end":22616.278,"text":"我們有協調了金牌客運還有苗栗客運在他停止的時候有人可以接手那是目前我們處理的方式但根本溯源來講的話最重要是這個公司要能夠正常運作正常營運所以我們也會看他的營運的狀況23號有約 有召開協調會那局部裡面再派人過來"},{"start":22620.186,"end":22646.291,"text":"另外其實我會講這個事情是五天前他停死前兩天晚上我們突然看到他又公告又公告 自行公告又要停死當然我們馬上介入才沒有發生所以我想這個問題還是要因為我們牽扯到很多老人家年長者跟一些要上班族他們確實就只能靠公車來上下班所以這個還請部長這邊來多多協助這個我們會來注意 隨時注意謝謝"},{"start":22647.911,"end":22677.006,"text":"另外我再請教院長關於能源的部分我想確認一件事情我們賴行哲總統說2030年要投入9000億推動淨零轉型請問這跟蔡政府2022年推動的2050年淨零轉型行動方案是一樣的嗎當中有很多的關鍵的一些技術的建設以及六大部門的整個延續性的工作當然是階段性在進行的"},{"start":22677.905,"end":22702.617,"text":"對 我當然 政策當然要延續啦但偷換概念就不行啦你們這個政府的最大問題就是我又有時候聽不太清楚你們講什麼那既然錢都花了 計畫也不是新的那理論上賴總統對外應該要告訴大家做了什麼 成果在哪裡而不像現在這樣子然後一開口動不動就要幾千億我們真的不知道這些錢要用在哪裡然後面對氣候變遷沒有人是舉外人啦我希望"},{"start":22704.636,"end":22729.938,"text":"不要把這個事情然後搞到變成每一個人都是受害的報告委員不會啦因為我們是講說這個投入投入的這個額度那比如說像離岸豐電來講的話事實上一個豐廠就要一千億的台幣所以就是說只要這個綠能產業我們持續的推動的話那會創造出還有電動車的推動就會產生出這樣的一個效果出來"},{"start":22730.669,"end":22754.727,"text":"我跟你講大概2023年全國排碳量是27800萬噸2024年排碳升到32100萬噸多了5000萬噸所以我們的政府花了那麼多錢在淨零碳排氣越來越高這個是不是有搞錯方向"},{"start":22755.835,"end":22766.549,"text":"報告委員那個碳排是明顯的下降2023年跟2005年相比減了4.64所以我們持續再往下走你往下 我要往後比啊你2024年為什麼高勒"},{"start":22767.633,"end":22783.639,"text":"2024目前來看我們預期是往下降而且持續在往下走當中今年確定會比明年今年確定會比去年低今年確定會比2023年的碳排2022年底你們說碳減碳有成那為什麼會比較高你說這個數據是"},{"start":22786.684,"end":22802.83,"text":"你後面再拿給我好嗎好 我們其實在氣候變遷對策委員會裡面都有特別提到都有公布這個數字我就是抓那上面的資料所以看到他是提高的沒有 明顯的從過去這幾年顯著的一個下降目前最新的一筆是2023年"},{"start":22805.756,"end":22833.01,"text":"審計部報告說的很清楚台電虧損的主要原因就是外購綠電支出暴增三年內從588億增加到1193億那今年台電購電價格風電每度是6.7光電5.3那這樣買電的話 院長這樣是不是會越來越虧那台電怎麼負擔得了初期的成本當然是要計算比較高一點那會它隨著它的賺收會越來越下降"},{"start":22834.751,"end":22856.73,"text":"對 現在的綠電他們已經大部分很多都不透過台電賣了因為他們的價錢比較好是自己供應給需求方他直接供應 線路用誰的線路還是用管電線還是用台電啊台電還是要負責維運還是要維護啊台電只是收那個過路費而已真正的價格 他有收過路費嗎對 有收"},{"start":22858.732,"end":22876.829,"text":"就是他看他的那個距離就是說應用的距離比如說來講某一家公司他買的是假設講台積電他去購買了一個風場然後他算他的距離過路費是多少他收這個但是實際的價格就變成是台積電跟這個風場他們自己去談"},{"start":22878.224,"end":22903.759,"text":"價錢他們自己去談所以我們都沒介入我們不會去干涉因為是民間的變成是他們民間的我看到我們光電的你們現在要推光儲結合的政策對不對光儲結合 儲電現在光電的收購制度有兩種第一種沒有儲能系統的台電購價大概是5.43元第二種有儲能系統的是由能源署開標得標在"},{"start":22904.659,"end":22933.325,"text":"要求台電用保證收購價去跟業者購買這樣是嗎除能的就是說我們事實上是鼓勵這個發電業者他有除能設施啦那這樣的話可以讓這個那除能你跟除能店買多少錢呢如果是除能電廠除能電廠我們沒有跟他用我看到得標是最美杜甸是9.59元不是委員可能講的是這個"},{"start":22934.252,"end":22944.155,"text":"那個需求的時候那個時候是淨價的時候對 他們最高價是9.59元那個是虛量淨價非常短的時間裡面緊急調度用那至於就是說我們現在是111年就飆了欸111年就飆了"},{"start":22960.763,"end":22976.674,"text":"這一家是哪一家公司你知道嗎就是我們雲豹能源北門光儲合一廠 暗廠那是全台最早一批光儲結合示範廠你們要推很快他們早就做好了就很巧他的子公司富仁資本在111年那一場競標"},{"start":22979.416,"end":22994.406,"text":"標到了目前最高價是9.59元一元我以這個比例來算如果以這個保證收費價去買電比一般光電是5.43元高出一倍台電自己發電成本高出三倍這個台電"},{"start":22996.147,"end":23015.037,"text":"台電這個繼續虧損狀況之下我們還要再漲幾支電不可能達到現在有時候9點多那你到時候把資料給我好不好那我也順便也把那個可能在序量競價在短時間內要緊急調度使用那絕不是長期的合約也把你們這個合約未來會簽約嗎假如說這種部分會簽約嗎"},{"start":23022.578,"end":23036.785,"text":"會跟廠商簽約嗎那一簽有沒有限定說一次一定多少年沒有 我跟委員報告這個短縮價格基本上它是逐年下降所以不會出現說9塊多的這些狀況我是說你的合約呢合約會不會用綁約一綁10年20年合約"},{"start":23040.29,"end":23055.582,"text":"等於台電就是要虧20年跟委員報告現在說老實話需要綠電的人越來越高了所以非常有可能會超過五塊六塊然後他們就會跟台電分手你會後再給我資料"},{"start":23060.221,"end":23073.851,"text":"另外院長我再請教關稅的問題就是我們現在掌握大家的訊息都停留在20%加N那個階段請問你的具體內容稅率範圍談判進度每次問都答不出來"},{"start":23075.168,"end":23089.629,"text":"那川普宣布關稅之後我們看到確實你們對美方的加碼採購投資承諾一項接一項所以我想問得更直接一點這些加碼採購的投資是不是拿來跟這個川普政府來交換條件"},{"start":23091.397,"end":23116.23,"text":"加碼採購跟投資採購是基於我國的各項需求我們去對外國政府做一些採購外國的民間做採購這個一方面國家的需求一方面我們財政的能力至於投資在主要的部分是產業自主性的投資比較多政府沒有辦法指揮產業你要去哪裡投資多少錢投資什麼產業但是產業如果有這種全球性的佈局"},{"start":23116.73,"end":23131.344,"text":"政府協助他來做一些行政以及金融保證的這個方面我們是可以做的所以我們在關稅上我們有跟美國這邊談的我們條件會比別人好嗎我們現在提出的就是台灣模式會長委員也聽過"},{"start":23133.305,"end":23158.834,"text":"產業自主去投資政府用金融支持來保證那雙方政府 政府之間來談合作合作什麼 產業聚落那這個產業聚落的形成需要美方在很多資源土地跟行政作業上給我們協助那這個產業的聚落未來就形成一個園區來幫助雙方的業者共同的發展因為各位看到了我們也希望這個熱等關稅的部分現在是暫時性的是20我們希望可以往下降"},{"start":23159.694,"end":23184.422,"text":"對 我不希望我希望你們是去談判的我希望我們的代表團是去談判的不是去美國接任務好嗎 可以嗎我們是美國去完成國家給他的任務不是去美國接任務是完成國家的任務去美國接美國的任務啦不是不是 完成國家賦予他的任務我很擔心這樣子 把台灣都賣了我們會談得很好的第二回合好 我再問產業對投資4000億美元正確嗎產業"},{"start":23189.941,"end":23204.704,"text":"對不起 要對美投資4000億美元這件事 現在雙方談到的技術性協商當中當然有很多的方案提出的想法但目前還沒有做哪一部分具體說雙方 院長剛剛講說是我們業者自主我看到郭智恆前部長說要再加碼2000億美元這是真的還假的"},{"start":23214.406,"end":23231.055,"text":"那看業者有沒有這種投資的計畫所以他是幫業者講話囉主要是業者他有這樣的意願有這樣的全球布局的需求那我們來協助他所以我們當然也做過一些盤點來支持這樣的產業有這樣的布局"},{"start":23233.584,"end":23255.794,"text":"另外還有我們農業部陳部長不是簽了要買100億美元的農產品嗎那不是農業部那是業者自己去的那我就很好奇就是說我們這四年要買超過100億美元的黃豆 玉米 小麥 牛肉比過去平均值真的25%那我們賴總統他在接見美國農業部"},{"start":23259.135,"end":23267.279,"text":"貿易及對外事業部次長林德伯格宣布了台灣業規劃未來四年採購100億的美國農產品是同一件事嗎"},{"start":23270.738,"end":23294.415,"text":"我跟委員報告這個114年100億美元的一個採購是由業者因為他們的平均的一個需求而去購買的第一個第二個部分就是提高25%它的計算基準是113年比113年提高了25%但是以過去5年的平均的話大致上還是落在過去5年的一個購買的一個平均水準"},{"start":23294.855,"end":23300.536,"text":"因為我看到賴總統還強調說這是提升糧食安全的戰略合作"},{"start":23301.138,"end":23329.131,"text":"它有基於我們進口所需要的也有消費的習慣還有我們畜牧業所需要一些肥料之類的那部長為什麼又說我又覺得很奇怪如果這是本來就有的部長為什麼又說這樣的承諾有助於台美關稅的談判如果只是業者生意為什麼要升高到戰略層級我一直很納悶這個事情我跟委員報告就是我們所採購的是我們國內自給率非常低的平均的自給率都在5%以下像大豆的話甚至於自給率只有0.02"},{"start":23330.578,"end":23357.524,"text":"那相對的台灣沒有生產但是需要特別是飼料用所以我們進口的中醫都是飼料用反而可以增加降低我們的農民的一個生產成本因為我看到就是平均一年進口量大概19億美金 美元每一年那4年的話4年的話也不過到76億對吧那你現在拉高到100億就差了25億美元"},{"start":23360.424,"end":23387.975,"text":"那這個差價會不會衝擊到我們的台灣本土的這個農業我想我剛才第一個強調就是這些產品都是國內自給率非常低的所以不會影響到國內產業這些產品進來以後因為當飼料可以降低飼料成本反而是對農民的生產是有利的第三個就是我剛才講的提高25%是用113年當作基準去計算的如果你是以過去的5年去平均的話"},{"start":23389.035,"end":23414.686,"text":"他大致上還是在維持在4年大概100億左右那我們有做這個融資貸款補貼或者保證收購嗎完全沒有都沒有是不是 是那我希望這樣 剩下10幾秒那我希望這個不要搞到我們台灣農民輸然後美國農民贏 這樣好嗎不會 我們自己產業還是要顧好國家利益 產業利益為優先農民的安全 農民的注意我們會列為優先的考量"},{"start":23416.066,"end":23443.536,"text":"謝謝 謝謝院長好 謝謝邱振軍委員指詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝報言會現在在議場二樓旁邊又來了兩批好朋友們第一批是馬街醫護管理學校所有的同學未來的白衣天使我們掌聲歡迎第二批來自議場二樓在議場二樓旁邊來自美麗又辛苦的花蓮縣所有的婦女朋友們我們掌聲歡迎"},{"start":23447.901,"end":23462.117,"text":"接下來我們請吳佩儀委員請質詢馬文君委員請準備好謝謝主席我請行政院卓榮泰院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":23471.775,"end":23486.747,"text":"吳委員好 院長好前陣子就在我們台北市我們首都的國門台北車站發生了一起令人心痛而且震驚國人的性侵案件那其中後續的媒體傳播也讓國人更加的震撼"},{"start":23487.788,"end":23514.454,"text":"那我們馬上就跟台鐵來關切在這邊我也要肯定台鐵跟鐵路警察局其實在第一天第一時間就做出了協調跟回應就是我們加強了台鐵站內的保全下個月甚至會增加保全的人力讓他這個見人率見警率可以來提升不過也在這個案件的了解當中我發現我們台鐵站內的鐵路警察"},{"start":23515.375,"end":23527.25,"text":"這個人力其實有一個很大的缺口我不知道院長有沒有了解我們的鐵路警察的員額是近900名那目前呢還有184名近200名沒有人啊缺額還是很大的"},{"start":23532.945,"end":23559.795,"text":"對那鐵路警察要負責什麼呢台鐵總共242個車站還有高鐵12個車站沿路超過1000公里沿線都需要他們為我們來維護治安所以台鐵公會其實上半年就有提出來了因為他們發現我們台鐵自己內部的人員在站內巡查的時候光是上半年遭受攻擊的案件就多起所以院長我們能夠協助趕快來把這個鐵路警察員額有員額啊但是沒人能趕快把人來補齊啊"},{"start":23561.875,"end":23578.005,"text":"了解上這個內政部警政署已經有一個擴大招生的計畫預計在未來的年度裡面要有大量的招生但是這個也要靠這個整個計畫能夠推動的這個順暢市長來說明來委員院長院員大家好"},{"start":23578.516,"end":23605.445,"text":"那要跟委員報告就是說我們整個的目前在鐵路警察局的員額有910人那差額184人我們會透過那個警力的提供還有短期的計劃的方式來增加短期計劃我了解我現在在問員額有沒有逐年要去補對 總體的員額在115年我們要再派補3000人那在派補3000人裡面我們已經派補了2600人明年就會開始派補嘛"},{"start":23606.545,"end":23634.137,"text":"請你們一定要去注意這個問題不要等到事件發生遺憾的時候才來發現人力不足這個是我們平常就要做的那除了鐵路警察人力以外有關於台鐵這個我們部長在這裡他非常了解過去我也多次請交通部來協助因為台北車站他是六鐵共購裡面還牽涉到台北市政府地下街有市場數有台北捷運公司常常需要台鐵需要跟台北市政府來進行協調"},{"start":23635.257,"end":23652.345,"text":"所以我要請這個交通部也要大力的來協助台鐵現在我們有災防聯合中心嘛治安也是聯合的重點請你們來協助台鐵跟這個地方政府多來協調我希望未來台北車站的治安維護我們可以來提升整體的量能可以嗎"},{"start":23652.805,"end":23667.012,"text":"好 我們來努力好 那這一個案件呢也引發了社會諸多的討論但我這裡要強調這一個個案從目前披露的資訊它跟街友是沒有任何的關聯的"},{"start":23667.972,"end":23694.756,"text":"它其實跟街友無關但是呢因為台北市確實是我們全國為了服務有列冊的街友人數最多的一個城市那其中台北市當中又以台北車站是街友聚集最多人數的一個熱點所以過去我在擔任市議員的期間也多次也長期的跟我們台北市政府來關心有關於我們街友安置街友輔導街友收容"},{"start":23695.336,"end":23721.65,"text":"街友的就業輔助等等相關的議題需要市政府地方政府要來協助那麼除了地方政府以外我們的法律基礎也是很重要其實院長我們現在有關於街友輔導的在法律層面的條文就只有一條而已就是社會救助法第17條當中有提到文字是這樣警察發現街友要通報社會局一起處理"},{"start":23722.671,"end":23741.368,"text":"但如何處理呢由地方政府自定所以過去呢這個縣市地方議會有不同縣市議員跟我們反映因為沒有法源基礎沒有明定說地方政府輔助皆有的法定義務是什麼所以呢其實議會要監督政府常常我們也是狗吠火車"},{"start":23742.609,"end":23763.892,"text":"就是說這個積極的地方政府他要做例如說過去台中市自己就訂定了自治條例他有辦法做但是不想做的地方政府你也沒辦法沒有法定義務那這個呢在我進立法院的第一個應該是第一第二個月團體就來跟我們討論當時希望中央可以來訂定無家者專法"},{"start":23764.412,"end":23785.662,"text":"我也找了衛福部來討論那當時我們知道衛福部也正在研擬設就法 修法的草案所以衛福部過去曾經主張就在設就法的修法當中並入無家者專章當時我們認為這個時程比較快但我們萬萬都沒有料到後來在野黨提出了才化法的修法"},{"start":23786.642,"end":23807.262,"text":"所以導致於社就法修法原先院長有一個這個心願我們也很支持就是希望我們政府對於弱勢的照顧能夠來擴大但是呢現在因為裁員的關係社就法他也需要更多的討論因為他牽涉到執行層面所以我的建議是說有關於無家者的輔導"},{"start":23809.552,"end":23826.666,"text":"讓地方政府有明定的法定義務我們是不是先來研擬無家者專訪讓無家者專訪先行衛福部有沒有辦法先來研擬這樣的方向呢謝謝委員特別關心到我們這個"},{"start":23828.418,"end":23857.524,"text":"無家者或者是皆有的這些福利跟權益確實如同委員提到我們在去年113年曾經預告了社會救助法的修法的草案當時候如同這個委員提到現行的這個社會救助法就一條條文是跟這個皆有相關那在我們的草案裡面有增加到五條包含定義包含這個這個中央地方應該要這個如何來協助資源如何挹注"},{"start":23859.225,"end":23872.112,"text":"從這個經濟安全從脫貧自利到這個社會投資有這樣的想法去規範但是確實預告之後也有很多的意見再加上這個 社交法目前有預定要送立法院的時間嗎"},{"start":23873.232,"end":23894.624,"text":"因為意見很多我們還在溝通另外就是一個變數就是這個還在溝通也還有裁員的變數所以院長我希望因為我們在台北市那剛好萬華區跟中正區台北市皆有的集中的熱點都在我的選區當中所以我們長期的在協助民間也來"},{"start":23895.444,"end":23910.485,"text":"督促地方政府要來做皆有的輔導其實大量的需要安置的空間相關的輔助院長我們是不是可以來演你無家者專法我們先行的來訂定我也會來提出草案那希望行政院可以來支持"},{"start":23911.445,"end":23926.81,"text":"因為委員出身台北市議會有地方議會來到國會練堂更了解地方對這些問題的直接面第一面的衝擊那也謝謝剛剛提到這麼多我覺得還是要回歸到整個地方的執行面來看"},{"start":23927.49,"end":23946.132,"text":"中央可以定一個方向 大方向出來剛剛提到我們因為現在在財化法的新法的制度底下中央的力量已經被削弱了很多所以如何讓地方能夠確實來執行中央可以有一個方向定出來但執行的過程還是要靠地方政府來完成的"},{"start":23946.513,"end":23964.518,"text":"沒有錯 所以大的方向我認為我們先來訂定專法另外就是這個案件它是次安事件不要把它跟街友的案子不安置這是兩個案件獨立事件我們剛剛有提到但是街友的輔助這個是進步的國家我們要一起來支持台北車站它絕對是一個重要的重大的關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":23967.519,"end":23980.806,"text":"這個吳嘉哲專訪後續了我就持續來跟你們討論接下來要跟院長關心的是院長也很關心的10月10號新上路三天的教師身心調試假那大家都非常期待"},{"start":23981.346,"end":23997.052,"text":"因為我們既有現行的就是教室有7天的試駕照理說7天的試駕加上3天的身心調試駕7加3應該等於10但是我們現在的算法因為你病入試駕你們的7加3還是等於7"},{"start":23998.559,"end":24020.621,"text":"所以他請假的要件比較簡化所以你把試假跟身心調試假並駕計算我認為實質上等於教師有三天假被你們偷走了那所以全教總的批評非常的激烈我來跟這個院長分享全教總他說呢就是第一個你這個換湯不換藥因為教師的假期總額沒增加嘛"},{"start":24022.23,"end":24036.008,"text":"大家期待已久都聽說有新的三天升薪條市價以為總額會增加結果趕快因為你併入市價計算第二個我本來就有七天的市價你現在把我併進來我既有市價其實被你壓縮了第三個"},{"start":24037.37,"end":24054.022,"text":"新增身心調適價的這個價別就是認為身心調適是一個符合也是我們賴清東總統的政見健康台灣 身心健康的需求你們把身心調適併入市價請問現在有身心調適需求是很有事嗎"},{"start":24055.043,"end":24070.368,"text":"是有事嗎你沒有去正面的去肯定它它本來就是一個理由所以我還是希望其實部長也有很多人跟你有過討論我還是希望我們可以來研擬這個身心調適價應該要還給教師"},{"start":24076.772,"end":24094.951,"text":"我們這個制度先讓他上路是考慮到真正的有需求但是我們要考慮到整個所有的身份別的人他的這個公平性跟平衡性還有考慮到產業界跟這個放假日數的增加與否所以我們先用這樣的方式簡化他請假請試假的"},{"start":24096.791,"end":24118.909,"text":"請併假的這個原因他不用去舉很多的例子先這樣來上路上路之後一定會引起社會的重視正面的反應很好很多我們就可以進一步來推動沒有錯上路之後也要請教育部行政院持續來關切因為馬上第一天台中市就發生了有老師要請假地方教育局說你先把七天試假用完再說"},{"start":24120.291,"end":24134.21,"text":"這個沒有達到我們的初衷我知道教育部有關切所以滾動式來調整我還是希望朝向未來升薪調試假三天還給教師這是應該的再來這個部長也很了解就曾經就在這個議場"},{"start":24135.672,"end":24158.205,"text":"不久之前部長曾經承諾說要來研擬去提升我們基層教師的終點費來也朝這個方向來研議為什麼因為現在呢新聞報導很多專題都有年輕人沒有人願意來當老師出現教師荒還呢同時呢還出現行政大逃亡"},{"start":24159.42,"end":24180.53,"text":"就是當教師第一線的教學真的辛苦然後除了教學以外我們還要老師來兼做行政所以不只沒有人要當老師已經是老師了沒有人想要兼行政所以除了教師終點費要來提升這個方向我覺得要來研議以外我也認為導師費跟行政加給我們可以來研議調整"},{"start":24182.383,"end":24211.29,"text":"因為這兩個工作都是老師在教學以外我們額外賦予他的工作院長你覺得我們能不能夠來當基層教師的後盾來去研擬因為我剛講這個終點費這20年來我們的基本工資剛剛院長有提到重要的我們各個行業別大家應該要去相互的注意20年來基本工資調漲的幅度187倍而20年來教師終點費的條幅是多少"},{"start":24212.458,"end":24231.494,"text":"只有5%落後了我們一般社會勞工的37倍我們基層教師有這麼不值嗎教育部跟我們都有注意到這個重大的問題所以日前也有委員在這裡談過這樣的狀況我們也覺得這個不成比例的問題要趕快來解決"},{"start":24232.376,"end":24258.247,"text":"我記得那天教育部他有一個說法部長我要拜託你了我們討論過很多次我們來想看到問題就要解決問題也許沒有辦法一觸可擊可是我們要開始演繹好不好一定要來提升我們基層教師的待遇部長謝謝最後因為剩下兩分鐘的時間院長我必須跟你關切我很關心的就是有關於我們都市更新要加速危老條例"},{"start":24259.287,"end":24285.088,"text":"不能落日這個非常關切的因為我的選區也是萬華區它的平均屋齡41年台北市最老的區域其中有近7成的屋齡都超過40年那這不是單一選區的問題全台灣都面臨這樣的就是我們都市需要來更新所以我聽說內政部有在研議危老條例因為按照現行法規一年半後就要來這個時間到期了是不是有嚴厲要來讓它能夠延長"},{"start":24288.05,"end":24315.717,"text":"違老都更都是我們在明年度重大的推升內需的重要項目所以對違老都更都更我們會同時進行都更我們甚至在公辦自辦之外要推自主都更那違老的我們還有新的包括這個預算已經編進去了對於整個老宅延壽機能復興計畫那裡面對達到一定條件的建築物達到一定年限的建築物我們會有一些補助的一個方案請次長說明"},{"start":24317.003,"end":24335.896,"text":"圍繞條例過去幾年我們的成效非常好就是這8年來有近5000件的申請這要肯定內政部同仁的努力所以第一個我們希望行政院承諾圍繞條例不落日剛剛院長有提到的我們還有新增的項目對不對包括我們的榮獎是不是有新增項目公益設施 社福設施是不是會納入新增的榮獎"},{"start":24337.116,"end":24354.364,"text":"也在跟社會溝通中我們的危老條例會在這個會期我們送到行政院來做備審因為危老條例裡面我們還會增加老宅延壽的章節讓整個的危老跟老宅延壽全部都可以一起整合讓整個社區能夠在地安老然後讓整個人民的生活環境比較好都市環境也變得比較好"},{"start":24355.134,"end":24376.678,"text":"老宅延售就是有些房子可能要改建但是布丁馬上等得到所以我們先讓他安全要提升例如說有些老舊公寓沒有電梯的讓他增設電梯可以補助那過去呢像台北市他只補助公共設施未來我們內政部這個案件這個任性計畫剛剛曾經過嘛市內的修繕你們有沒有納入補助我們不是只有走走電梯還有傳進空"},{"start":24392.816,"end":24394.816,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩儀委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請馬文君委員質詢廖偉祥委員請準備"},{"start":24422.977,"end":24426.179,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢馬委員好"},{"start":24437.762,"end":24461.79,"text":"院長午安院長我們今天有幾個議題可能要就叫院長也跟院長做探討像這一次行政院提出了五千七百億這樣子的任性特別預算其中國訪的部分他大概佔了一千一百三十幾億那就這個部分因為在審查相關的所屬單位的"},{"start":24462.63,"end":24484.046,"text":"這個預算的時候其實有發現有一些真的是腐爛或者相當鞭裂的狀況其實是不太恰當的一個情形甚至像比如說像女廁裡面有小便斗這樣子的工項這其實都是複製貼上不曉得是太便宜形式還是其他的狀況可是其實它就是發生了"},{"start":24484.546,"end":24502.806,"text":"我們近日有媒體在報導海軍的大氣海洋局上校局長他為了執行國安任性特別預算案的過程當中其實也發生非常多的離譜的行徑比如說像海軍司令部所屬的單位當中大氣海洋局"},{"start":24503.286,"end":24526.713,"text":"其實它只是一個200多人的一個專業幕僚單位可是他們以往負責的是氣象海圖跟水文資料等等的預報那還有收整印製等業務這個局長上任以後他不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心更想在兩年之內執行21億的這樣的六個案子"},{"start":24528.254,"end":24543.621,"text":"21億這兩年那其中的三個案子共17億多其中有一個要重新興建具備防護電池脈衝能力的一棟三層樓的大樓還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建"},{"start":24545.942,"end":24572.232,"text":"五大作業中心除了構制相關的一些軟硬體以外還有包含專案開發的軟體這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎其實在審查過程當中我也有提出刪減的這個部分可是因為國防部也一直強調這非常重要我們不曉得這個海洋大氣海洋局其實他為什麼需要這個防護電池"},{"start":24573.972,"end":24598.071,"text":"賣充的這樣的能力他蓋這個大樓高達17億多可是現在我們才看到他到底是不是有需要那個局長其實就這個部分部長也上來了這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應說明一下我要請部長回答我先跟委員表達我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這樣的違規違法的情形"},{"start":24598.766,"end":24625.233,"text":"我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育而且我們嚴格的管控不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為這國人看在心裡是非常痛心也對我們現在整體的國家安全是極大的危害那至於在預算過程當中我知道委員有提出過幾些一些的意見那其中有一部分國防部也很虛心的接受也檢討這個我們虛心的接受檢討自我改進那未來也希望委員繼續在這邊督促但是"},{"start":24625.598,"end":24634.244,"text":"整個在防衛任性整個國安任性這方面的工作我們還是要持續進行因為時間的關係部長我想我們細節不要在這裡討論是因為其實後來這一筆預算我們有同意我們並沒有刪減可是現在突然又發生這個事情這樣的狀況我等一下會說如果將這樣子的狀況沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下其實這一筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行"},{"start":24653.899,"end":24675.863,"text":"文委員 給我30秒就好了第一個就這個預算17億多這個是整建的部分而且並沒有湖邊的一個狀況那我們會後續會來向省省的來管制這個預算不至於被有任何的一個濫用的狀況那至於其他有關這些"},{"start":24677.524,"end":24690.859,"text":"媒體報了這些相關的這些什麼收集演信資訊 篡改春節戰備輪值引進這個中資背景公司露營運送湖標露營 未採取保密措施接受廠商參與等等這些"},{"start":24691.755,"end":24708.866,"text":"我們經過初步調查而且是審查這些佐證資料海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情史但我還是要求因為他還是要給我一份詳細的書面報告至於預算的部分我們一定會審慎來運用我們獲得的預算"},{"start":24712.455,"end":24734.584,"text":"部長 長官還在的情況之下如果去裡面用問卷調查我想沒有人敢寫啦這個部分的調查這個客觀後續你們看怎麼處理不過在這裡院長部長這一件事情事實上並不像周刊刊登的這麼單純而已本席接獲民眾檢舉林昌玉上校在邀請相關的設備商營造商進行會刊研討"},{"start":24739.046,"end":24755.925,"text":"採購標案內容的過程當中他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討這個都有照片甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有PO出來這個非常的清楚而且他的英文名這個可以去調查因為他去的像他甚至跟"},{"start":24756.765,"end":24772.119,"text":"像十大队就是我们六连队下辖的其中一个大队C13动运输大队其实关系也都非常密切可以从他的个人的这个社群媒体上网站上面可以看得出来他非常吃得开可是"},{"start":24773.179,"end":24788.312,"text":"他的人際關係如何是另外一回事那這一位特定人士陳先生他跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的而且這些大陸的像宜航航空學院"},{"start":24789.073,"end":24807.474,"text":"南通航運職業技術學院以及上海宜航通用有限公司這個跟陳先生的關係我們請國防部還有院長其實一併調查他到底這樣的一個學術單位跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼我們是不是也要深入了解"},{"start":24808.656,"end":24815.121,"text":"這個為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下這個主官其實應該先調離現職才有辦法真的深入調查就像部長你會非常生氣說我們的警監系統其實他是有錄製的他是有這樣的狀況所有的我們的"},{"start":24827.992,"end":24855.125,"text":"我們的監視器其實都是都有錄製的那個零件在裡面的時候其實我們是不能接受的那一樣這個大氣海洋局甚至我們花了這麼高額你還甚至要用脈衝的這個防護的這樣興建一棟大樓可見他要做的是什麼如果他是重要的這個就一定要查清楚他的背景相關的資料等等這個是不是應該要去做一個考慮"},{"start":24856.566,"end":24877.117,"text":"我想這些相關的預算是作為整件不是新件是第一個第二個剛剛委員因為所提到的這些週刊上面所報的還有剛剛委員垂詢的這些事項因為都涉及到相關的細節我想也沒有時間在這邊做一一的回覆但我想我們會有一個詳細的一個報告那當然要有海軍要嚴查 嚴查之後我們"},{"start":24878.298,"end":24902.317,"text":"會來跟社會做一個徹底的說明部長我說的不是只有工程而已喔我說的不是只有預算喔因為他只要納入特別預算其實就不會受到審查這是特別預算比較特別的地方可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切或者甚至是有交流的如果是有這樣的背景"},{"start":24902.697,"end":24917.113,"text":"我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料因為你們包括在內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了我們所有國家整體海疆的安全如果"},{"start":24917.734,"end":24934.498,"text":"有這樣子的背景是不是適合這個應該要調查清楚這是我們要提出來的今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明你們還是要調查這個部分請院長跟部長下去以後如果做了調查提供書面報告給本席還有我們立法院好不好"},{"start":24936.847,"end":24955.62,"text":"因為我也沒辦法委員這樣子我想我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的來說明但我想我們一定會詳細的調查沒關係你調查清楚我是希望你調查因為我們把照片也呈現出來他上面的英文名你們也可以去查一下他的背景資料我想我們還是要勿往勿中"},{"start":24965.186,"end":24991.128,"text":"用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍因為這個是我們很重要的而且它是有機敏性的嘛那我們就等待我們的調查結果好不好另外在這裡我們也要請教就是空軍花了1400多億把現役的141架F16AB升級到F16V的標準那也以近2500億特別預算構置了66架的F16V"},{"start":24992.529,"end":25016.283,"text":"台灣其實會變成擁有200餘架F16型戰鬥機我們在亞太地區其實是最大的戰機使用國當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化在地化並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體的體系所以"},{"start":25016.903,"end":25045.404,"text":"也希望帶動民間的航太產業在2019年的時候在行政院長經濟部還有國防部的官員見證底下其實洛克希德馬丁跟漢翔有簽署協議書當時是推動成立F16戰機的亞太地區維修中心那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作還有和美方在商談當中那漢翔的F16維修中心在2020年成立"},{"start":25046.164,"end":25058.029,"text":"在那時候在招商會當中也吸引了110家的廠商參加而且說有69家廠商表達有能力有意願來加入航太國家隊"},{"start":25059.551,"end":25088.36,"text":"未來整體產業效益上看兩千億元2020到現在已經過了五年到目前為止其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益我們在2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會那時候透露已經有超過百項F16系統的零件可以在台灣就地維修可是我們在現在看到整個"},{"start":25090.383,"end":25114.129,"text":"審計部他最新公布的決算報告裡面他在查核F16戰機維修中心推動的情形他指出有三點器材裝備維修項目缺乏法源依據這是第一個第二個F16戰機它的維修中心建置的它的能量品項尚未完成認證程序"},{"start":25115.129,"end":25124.975,"text":"第三到去年年底空軍司令部他統計影響F16型戰機妥善率前30項的這些相關的零附件"},{"start":25126.4,"end":25150.715,"text":"由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎"},{"start":25154.062,"end":25180.351,"text":"委員報告我想第一個就法源的部分由空軍這個認證這個部分我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國安部委託法人團體從事研發產自維修作業要點來辦理然後我們把這個已經頒證的品項還有含未來規劃的這個頒證的這個品項我們都納入國安部的產核匯報來認證來符合這個相關的法規規定這是第一點"},{"start":25181.131,"end":25193.177,"text":"第二點這個品項的部分我們現在從109年漢祥成立這個F16維修中心到現在是完成了372項的能量的籌建制"},{"start":25194.443,"end":25220.206,"text":"所以將這個器材修復的時間送到國外維修平均要原來要457天現在縮短到200天內所以還是有能夠提升我想你沒有聽清楚我說的剛剛委員提到關鍵的品項那我必須坦誠的說這些關鍵的品項跟這個洛馬這邊的談並不是那麼的容易這一點確實是事實也就是說他對於他關鍵"},{"start":25221.507,"end":25235.04,"text":"一個品項的一個釋出因為時間的關係我先提出來我們講到的關鍵的品項我們現在在這裡要提出來說我們跟落馬談判好像沒有那麼順利沒有那麼容易"},{"start":25236.101,"end":25257.807,"text":"不應該的因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F16型戰機而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣子的一個MOU跟他簽署了這樣的協議而且我們付出了非常高額的我們的攻核點數我們的攻核點數有一億多點包括我們的鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案這兩個加起來這都是真金白銀換來的"},{"start":25263.368,"end":25284.655,"text":"我們花的金額我們買F16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額的預算去提供給他們可是在後續他應該給我們我們剛剛說的攻核點數其實是他很多的技術跟其他的相關的這些零附件的有一些有力的或相關的訓練其實是應該要提供給我們的"},{"start":25285.555,"end":25306.314,"text":"我們付出了那麼多的美元點可是他通通沒有給我們那是我們失職我們沒有辦法對美方要求當我們在說美方對我們多好多好的時候我們付出那麼多卻沒有辦法得到這對我們非常非常的不公平部長在這裡我們還是要求這不是沒有辦法跟他談判他本來就應該要給我們因為我們有付錢我們還有付出我們的美元點"},{"start":25309.577,"end":25327.69,"text":"而且很重要的韓國在1990年代依據Korea fighter program他取得授權的生產線他在1990年他沒有多少架他在1994年到2004年期間他國內就可以裝配製造100"},{"start":25329.952,"end":25344.313,"text":"140架KF16也就是F16CD韓國已經可以維修甚至可以製造因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系後續還自行推動中壽期的升級"},{"start":25345.174,"end":25364.674,"text":"這是韓國做到的他是1994到2004就做到了我們花了大筆的預算我們付出了那麼多的美元點我們應該強烈要求美方甚至洛克希德馬丁公司他就必須要給我們這樣子的能量否則在暫時我們根本沒有辦法運用尤其是我們的關鍵的這些零組件"},{"start":25366.657,"end":25385.702,"text":"我想第一點就是說即使是韓國就我所知也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地那第二個我們當然會持續向落馬爭取這個原廠能量而且也要向美國政府來請求資質計轉的授權因為這個跟委員剛剛所提到任性是有關係我們會持續來爭取"},{"start":25387.433,"end":25415.765,"text":"這個部分我們希望可以很快因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心你既然要成立亞太維修中心表示你必須要有這樣的能量你必須要有這樣的技術更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件當你都沒有的時候你告訴我們全體的人民說我們要花這麼多錢我們要買這麼多的F16戰機然後我們可以自己維修到現在還是不行甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們第一架都還沒有到台灣所以我們希望據理力爭我們不是只有一直付出這樣會讓人家覺得"},{"start":25417.045,"end":25435.47,"text":"每次都說我們是盤子的原因就是這樣所以在這裡我們還是要求我們行政院還有我們國防部應該要具體力爭而且可以競速可以達到這樣子的一個標準好不好那接下來我們也有很多的預算投入的重心接下來就是無人機了"},{"start":25436.13,"end":25458.93,"text":"政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心我們比較擔心我們每次喊出來的都後來變成口號因為我們提到說2030年產值要達到400億台幣我們光是看各部會在無人機領域的直接跟間接的預算未來5年至少會上看600億以上對不對"},{"start":25460.629,"end":25474.248,"text":"我們的支出我們要買無人機什麼這些初步看起來搞不好還更高我想就國安部的部分因為無人機的統籌計畫這個是經濟部在負責我們國安部的部分就"},{"start":25475.291,"end":25504.52,"text":"我們有兩大一個政治目標也就是說第一個我們要讓這個在地的生產能量能夠提升這樣子的話我們才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性那第二個就是說要這樣子的一個提升才能夠產生一定的這個產業規模那這樣才能夠支撐這個產業的發展那國安部作為可能無人機最大的一個需求者我們會盡量的跟產業來一起協同合作然後呢引跟進這個整個國際上面的一個"},{"start":25505.36,"end":25520.167,"text":"技術的創新的腳步部長 院長我們樂見台灣其實在尤其無人機無人載台載具其實它是未來的一個重心發展的一個方向我們也樂見台灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步"},{"start":25520.367,"end":25534.078,"text":"而且是有舉足輕重的地位就跟我們的半導體一樣可是我們現在看起來我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣因為什麼原因我剛剛提到說我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億的台幣可是我們至少比如說我們也花了上百億要規劃一個園區"},{"start":25543.046,"end":25560.31,"text":"可能製造啊或者像跟無人機的產業園區還包括對外的採購還有包括對內的採購無人機的這樣子的一個花費至少有600億以上我初估啦可能還一定後續會更高可是你國家花600億換來產值400億的"},{"start":25564.992,"end":25584.662,"text":"這個產業 也就是說產業總值是低於政府的投入那是一年啦 或是一段時間還會一直增加的你們是提到2030年啦對 那會往後一直在增加可是你2030年你的產值是400億第一年要怎麼創造400億第一年400億是什麼時候 什麼時候算400億"},{"start":25587.723,"end":25606.013,"text":"什麼時候算400億你是賣給誰賣給國防部賣給內政部賣給我們自己國家我們可以出口嗎現在我們的核心零件我們最大的問題我們希望大家可以靜下來"},{"start":25607.054,"end":25612.538,"text":"去思考我們的無人機產業怎麼發展我們不要當代工你如果當代工你就沒有辦法做到這樣因為無人機的產業無人機所有相關的產業它不是非常高的門檻很多其他國家都可以做不是只有台灣可以做我們台灣目前我們的核心零件比如說抗干擾導航"},{"start":25628.849,"end":25632.714,"text":"加密資料鏈還有我們EOIR光電模組還有我們的馬達跟推進系統等等其實多仰賴進口如果我們這些關鍵的技術還有我們出口沒有辦法獲得相關的這樣的一個可能一個"},{"start":25649.732,"end":25670.602,"text":"你甚至就是用國家的錢在帶動我們自己的產業而已這是我們擔心的我們在這裡先提醒因為你未來其實正要起步所以我們在這裡先提醒但是我是向委員報告已經有廠商已經拿到國外的訂單這是事實你可以拿到多少訂單你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機"},{"start":25672.663,"end":25692.541,"text":"你的比例如果你要這樣算的話你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單是什麼樣的訂單有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌人家更高的價格是賣給其他國家甚至賣回給台灣這就已經不是我們的產值這是我先提醒"},{"start":25693.141,"end":25712.36,"text":"這是我先提醒的我們未來還有時間我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況無人機產業或者無人載具既然是我們國家重大的發展方向我們一步一步把我們的限量權國防航太產他們波蘭還有中東歐國家來這邊下單的"},{"start":25713.861,"end":25717.324,"text":"他們下多少單將近8000億美金8000萬美金8000萬美金是多少3億多我們要投入600多億"},{"start":25734.651,"end":25756.041,"text":"我們現在講的 你在這裡換算是沒有你的訂單我們不是沒有辦法賣我說的是你要有競爭力 如果你要我們跟美國買多少美國很多的景銷 其實到後來他們還是買大疆我們在這裡不是要討論你我們現在國內賣出多少"},{"start":25757.722,"end":25786.561,"text":"我們要建立飛鴻供應鏈讓無人機的自主的能量的可能建立完全自主能量的可能性顯然的 您剛剛質疑這個F16我們的TOM2 F16類似這樣的一個發動機就是說一個高性能戰機的發動機的自主能量的一個能夠產生確實是有困難 這個我們必須要承認但是無人機需要的馬達 電池等等我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟的一個規模這個動能自然就會起來我們有這個機會"},{"start":25791.004,"end":25814.34,"text":"我剛剛念了幾個核心的零件目前我們台灣是欠缺就是我們的量能其實還是不足的我們希望我們可以趕快就是如果我們要發展你當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位我剛剛是提醒如果後續我們在五年後再看看現在的樣子就跟我們剛剛提到說F16"},{"start":25815.961,"end":25834.621,"text":"戰機的情況是一樣的所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講我們F16今天無人機也是一樣我們不是我們投入很多可是我們創造的價值或者產值是很少那我覺得這可能就不值得這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分那接下來"},{"start":25835.913,"end":25862.279,"text":"我可不可以講一下因為我們現在最重要的無人機它是要把我們的能量可以製造的能量先build up起來因為我們現在說老實話沒有那麼大量的需求我們不像波蘭像中東或國家他們現在就是很大量的需求他們需要很大的我們跟他合作我不曉得我們希望不要哪一天我們需要的時候那個能量我們很快的可以build up起來因為廠商"},{"start":25863.539,"end":25872.597,"text":"也有很多的大廠他願意加入這個行列只是說因為你現在沒有那個量所以他沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去"},{"start":25873.562,"end":25897.539,"text":"我們要在這裡提醒的是因為其他國家也可以做那如果我們要做應該要怎麼做就是把我們現在還不足的而且我剛剛講的那四大的能量是非常重要的就像我們的國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際它就是因為它最重要的引擎它沒有辦法自己做我們可以有好的通訊軟體我們好的飛控軟體"},{"start":25899.08,"end":25921.418,"text":"黑空軟體好的通訊模組我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業在這一塊那只要這些大廠願意投入那一定的經濟規模上來我覺得當很多廠商跟你報當很多廠商報喜不報憂或者他只講好的時候那是我們應該要可能要再審慎的去做一個通盤的考量因為身為政府"},{"start":25922.299,"end":25939.673,"text":"身為政府你看的是全面性的而不是單一的來源或者我們自己付出的很多然後獲得的很少這是我們現在今天要特別提到的吳仁基產業我們起步並不是最快但因為這樣子我們有更多學習的機會可以快速的成長"},{"start":25940.333,"end":25958.169,"text":"第二個民主供應鏈台灣絕對有它的重要性第三個我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易哪一個國家需要跟我們合作我想我們可以另個案再跟委員報告這裡還是讓我們說只做原則性的回覆 謝謝因為我剛剛講的我有提到一個重點就是我們不要只是代工"},{"start":25959.169,"end":25978.732,"text":"這個部分可能未來如果在這個面向上面我們希望其實我們是可以按部就班然後可以做出我們自己的一個相關的一個能量這是我們今天特別提的那另外一點時間就是我們現在大家還是很關切它也還沒有落幕就是"},{"start":25979.272,"end":26001.583,"text":"美國跟台灣其實我們關稅的問題美國對台有一個重大協議我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼表面上看起來好像利多可是事實上我們現在顯然我們是依附的狀況比較明顯就這個部分我們希望在後續因為我們到現在還沒有一個很明確的"},{"start":26002.303,"end":26026.559,"text":"得到一個相關的訊息因為我們看到台積電過去了現在甚至整個生態系大家覺得非常錯愕之前剛開始台積電過去投資的時候政府是很大聲的告訴我們所有人民說我們所有其他產業產業鏈或跟供應鏈是不會過去的他還是會留在台灣現在不是現在是整個全部都也要到"},{"start":26027.159,"end":26055.203,"text":"到美國去所以這個對我們的影響非常大另外還有我們的像農業的採購像我們的國防的採購還有我們國防預算要達到幾%其實都是順應美國的要求另外還有我們對美的投資所以在這個部分我們看所有我們的條件全部都限縮在我們完全沒有自主權我們也沒有選擇權我們是配合美方的"},{"start":26055.803,"end":26071.961,"text":"要求在做 這個要跟委員說明任何對美的投資這個大廠他必須要耕留台灣 立足台灣這個是要求的最優先的同時一樣的 他的產業供應鏈他自然有他產業的佈局他有需要 那這些供應鏈如果"},{"start":26072.702,"end":26088.043,"text":"避免降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成他有可能這樣考慮但還是一樣要跟流台灣以台灣作為基礎才能做嘗試那目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的這個階段"},{"start":26090.086,"end":26112.691,"text":"現在院長我們當然是希望像您說的這樣子可是我們現在就我們現在大家感受到的或者包括全世界各國其實也一樣感受不是只有台灣可是台灣是面臨更嚴峻的一個狀況因為我們沒有辦法距離力爭我們甚至不敢跟美國談我不知道是不是不敢跟他談我們一直我們收到的我們"},{"start":26113.451,"end":26140.986,"text":"可能受到的或者我們付出的是比其他國家還要多我們現在來看我們其實台灣是極度的單邊倚靠我們像美方這兩年它在推動的這個經貿政策它不再是一個自由貿易其實它比較像是供應鏈的主權化意思就是以安全為名它重構全球供應鏈的主導權根本上就是讓盟國在技術上跟生產上都是臣服於美國"},{"start":26142.106,"end":26161.096,"text":"這個部分其實我們已經發現到我們希望其實我們可以參考其他像其他的國家比如說像印度印度他雖然買俄國的石油可是他還是參與印太而且美國也讓步了還跟他技術合作另外還有就是巴基斯坦他有像"},{"start":26163.817,"end":26189.31,"text":"中國靠攏可是美國還是恢復他的軍事援助而且他也有獲得債務的減免另外還有土耳其他北約他是內外兼容可是他還是繼續留在北約而且他已經換得了像李海的談判角色還有就是東協各國他們多邊投資的協定他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局"},{"start":26189.91,"end":26205.144,"text":"像這些國家其實他們在談判的過程當中其實他們都有第二條路我們台灣現在可能比較侷限的或者我們現在面臨最大的問題我們現在把自己侷限在一個框架裡面我們只有一條路"},{"start":26206.025,"end":26220.034,"text":"當美國做調整或改變的時候甚至還有人提到他們有很多的專家學者或甚至有提過我們台灣可能會被犧牲或出賣的時候我們沒有第二個選擇這是我們應該要正式的問題"},{"start":26223.056,"end":26240.749,"text":"我們軍事的採購有國家國防的需求我們的產業的採購有產業各方面製造的需求我們的投資也有產業自主佈局全球的需求農業的採購也有我們進口跟我們消費習慣跟其他畜牧業的需求我們都用這樣的需求做出發點院長 我們互相"},{"start":26247.878,"end":26271.159,"text":"好 謝謝馬文京委員質詢 謝謝左院長跟相關部會首長備詢 謝謝下面一位委員質詢結束之後我們將會休息十分鐘左院長喝口水吧等你喝完好 接下來我們請廖偉強委員請質詢"},{"start":26291.443,"end":26316.719,"text":"謝謝主席這個謝謝韓院長請卓榮泰院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢廖委員好院長好院長第一題我想要請教一下最近有一些傘兵的事件發生那不曉得院長有沒有掌握這個事情"},{"start":26317.992,"end":26330.134,"text":"早上有委員有提到那律師有曝說刑責差異所以建議今天都去自首就是說有閃兵的狀況想要問一下我們院長的態度是什麼"},{"start":26332.203,"end":26353.908,"text":"對於這件事情的看法也就是說如果他自首了就可以有更低的刑責這個部分請院長回應一下原則上服兵役是國民的義務也是對國家忠誠的表現那國家現在也需要有這樣的訓練讓我們的國防體系能夠強化這個才是重點不在於到犯罪之後的處理所以他去自首的話刑責會不會比較低"},{"start":26355.388,"end":26379.175,"text":"依照法律 自首都有降低刑責那你也要呼籲他們有這樣的狀況的人盡快去自首吧我要呼籲的是大家要去服務兵役的義務而不是呼籲大家去自首本席就是想要問院長的態度而已再來下一題不知道院長有沒有掌握到羅浮宮在大白天遭搶這個事件不曉得院長有沒有掌握"},{"start":26379.815,"end":26406.457,"text":"有一點像電影的情節那有掌握嗎 你曉得嗎我沒有很了解他為什麼這樣但這兩天的媒體都有很清楚的報導好 院長我很快速的講基本上他就是有19日發生重大竊案4名竊賊 用7分鐘的時間就闖進去阿波羅長廊然後偷走多大量的8件這個完全沒有辦法估計的這種古文物喔所以這件事震驚全球那本席想問 看到這個事件院長你們有沒有什麼做法"},{"start":26407.469,"end":26423.452,"text":"有沒有什麼看法我第一個覺得很不可思議這樣的情節過去好像在電視電影上看得到但是我們要反求諸己在我們重要的關鍵基礎設施以及我們重要的類似這樣的這個場合我們要如何加強對 請問院長有沒有很怕會有模仿效應出現"},{"start":26424.394,"end":26437.209,"text":"所以院長你有沒有想到這件事那你有沒有趕快折成相關的單位包含我們的故宮或是國家級的所有相關的這個館長趕快重新檢視我們的保全夠不夠有沒有演習有沒有什麼有沒有任何的問題"},{"start":26438.951,"end":26458.503,"text":"那個委員跟委員報告我們對在院長跟總統的指示之下我們對國家關鍵CI其實都有強加強的那個保護所以許多的警力都已經佈置在那邊而且我們平常就有演習本市長請問這個事件發生之後你們有沒有趕快去了解要怎麼預防時間暫停 故宮博物院院長要不要備詢麻煩請故宮博物院院長備詢"},{"start":26475.545,"end":26501.164,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個事情我們得到訊息以後我們就責成我們由副院長召集會議然後模擬可能發生的狀況然後加強整個防護的設備基本上來講的話故宮它的三層設備的話我們一直都是非常正常的運作那包括故宮我們還有一個比較特殊的就是國內博物館沒有我們有警犬隊"},{"start":26502.284,"end":26504.97,"text":"院長 我想要跟你們報告院長 院長 次長"},{"start":26507.568,"end":26535.007,"text":"這個羅浮宮在招竊以前據說也有很多人跟他說可能會有問題他們也是相當有自信覺得說這個是全世界最好的博物館他們的保全最佳的最好所以本席要講的事情是看到這個事要迅速的反應之外院長是不是也應該要想辦法去了解羅浮宮到底出了什麼狀況先看別人發生了什麼這個漏洞然後也同時檢視我們有沒有漏洞跟要去演習"},{"start":26536.008,"end":26563.155,"text":"這個部分可以嗎因為料敵從寬料敵從嚴這個意思是我們對整個任何事件這樣處理那委員今天的提醒會讓我們再去做全面性的檢討跟強化請院長還有我們故宮的院長要責成相關的單位包含你說警力或者軍方或者相關的可能要牽扯到的相關單位然後重新檢視自己的所謂這個安全層級夠不夠甚至內部的保全"},{"start":26563.775,"end":26570.473,"text":"人員 保全人員 量能夠不夠還有哪裡科技有死角以及科技有沒有需要精進的地方"},{"start":26571.045,"end":26595.991,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們跟那個館區的轄區然後包括檢調單位我們都是保持密切的聯繫只要任何有風吹草動街道情緒的話我們馬上會啟動緊急應變的一個措施還是要儘速檢討羅浮宮的事情才剛發生要全面儘速檢討因為任何一件館藏任何一件文物遺失我想都不是任何人想看到而且大家也都承擔不起"},{"start":26596.451,"end":26622.899,"text":"而且我們在針對五大威脅的國安實際上措施當中對於關鍵基礎設施早就已經在做這樣的工作了我們除了法制措施方案計畫都會把它完成好 院長 針對羅浮宮事件就先這樣請盡速的這個折承相關單位那是不是一個月內的時間可以給本席辦公室一個相關的檢討報告沒有問題 沒有問題好 謝謝 更快都沒有問題應該更快 謝謝 謝謝院長好 那下一題請李洋理部長"},{"start":26628.454,"end":26640.343,"text":"運動部長好 院長部長 原來部長還在走路 因為時間有限的關係這個"},{"start":26645.66,"end":26668.407,"text":"部長好部長身為第一任的運動部長又是金牌的運動員出身這個本席是相當的敬佩也是你的粉絲但是我相信你一定關心各類的新興運動的發展那我今天就是很快的一個訴求想要替一個結合科技教育跟運動的新興項目爭取是不是納入我們運動部的管轄"},{"start":26669.227,"end":26697.158,"text":"因為現在運動部針對無動力飛行納入管理項目代表政府早已經承認飛行運動的安全性跟競技價值可是有相關的競技內容相似的競技活動像是競技無人機還有無人足球等等這種動力飛行其實它在國際上面就已經是正式的體育項目可是在台灣目前是沒有主管沒有制度沒有方向所以想要問一下部長這部分是不是可以競速納入這是第一個問題"},{"start":26698.531,"end":26713.139,"text":"跟委員報告那過往其實在電競、圍棋其實它也都不是我們所泛之的運動那其實在亞運現在也都有了那其實我們運動部的成立也當然會廣納運動的多元性那當然我們會跟進國際的趨勢"},{"start":26715.2,"end":26742.814,"text":"對 因為想要跟部長報告是可能要儘速演繹因為我相信這其實是一個結合AI結合航太科技 結合工程教育結合運動競技的一項競技活動所以三個具體的訴求是希望說第一個運動部可不可以這個儘速修訂運動項目分類增列動力飛行項目因為這個國際航空聯盟FAI已經有相關的潛力可以有可循的地方"},{"start":26743.334,"end":26764.406,"text":"第二個是不是請部長支持設立科技運動的相關的類別讓AI的這種體感運動VR運動機器人格鬥都有制度可以隸屬那第三個也要請運動部跟教育部是不是可以合作去研議啟動全國中小學的競技無人機示範賽他也可以跟這個STEM的教育"},{"start":26765.326,"end":26779.422,"text":"結合計畫可以讓學生從學習到比賽從實作到創新我想這是我主要的三個訴求因為這個台灣也是少數擁有完整的無人機產業鏈的國家包含晶片馬達碳纖維機的這些自製"},{"start":26780.163,"end":26807.364,"text":"那如果可以把這個東西帶進去的話它可能也可以是一個新的國家品牌所以這部分邀請我們李部長是不是回去可以研議這個方向報告 跟委員報告我們待會去研議好 謝謝部長那拜託再也把這個研議的結果看一個月內是不是給本席辦公室可能因為這比較新興那是不是可以多一點時間可以 那部長你覺得多久的時間看是不是可以三個月好 沒問題謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":26814.304,"end":26825.823,"text":"再來院長這個是我第三個part這個訴求也很重要這也是現在想要先問院長一下你有沒有點過外送當然有對不對那你有在下雨天點過嗎"},{"start":26827.94,"end":26852.013,"text":"太大的雨我也不會點但太熱的時候也會在小雨的時候點小雨的時候也會有對不對好 院長其實這個外送產業其實已經深入我們的生活其實在所謂粉色系的廠商它在2012登台以來其實在台灣這個產業已經超過12年了2012年到現在已經超過12年了疫情後更是爆發性的成長所以從業人員從5萬變成15萬"},{"start":26855.975,"end":26876.825,"text":"報徵的三倍而且這群人裡面可能還有將近一句研究報告有四成到六成可能是完全全職依賴外送這個產業但這群人的權益其實是在法律的灰色地帶那我另外想問一下院長或者部長你們知道單筆的外送費是多少錢嗎單筆的外送費知不知道"},{"start":26878.072,"end":26905.438,"text":"你說的是保底的價格嗎對單筆的第一筆是45最新的是45但是其實他大家都不知道因為他的演算法會改變所以曾經也發生過他單筆第二筆連續的訂單第二筆降的非常的低這是在今年7月發生的事情對所以我要告訴你們就是說這個問題就是憑良心講我剛問你你說45塊但我要說的是其實大家都不知道為什麼因為演算法沒有那麼透明"},{"start":26906.238,"end":26929.048,"text":"演算法沒有那麼透明勞動部有來報告過這個演算法我們也在檢討說如何讓保障這個外送員的權益所以他們面臨的困境就是包含著這個外送費過低啦然後演算法不透明沒有相關的職業保險的完整性不夠啊也沒有合理的申訴管道更重要的是外送員跟平台的關係到底是什麼究竟是僱傭呢還是承攬呢"},{"start":26930.849,"end":26946.549,"text":"還是說因為新興的這個經濟模式他有新的關係這個其實都還沒有定那再來就是我們是不是應該參考歐美的模式比如說歐洲的模式走出新的一條道路所以這個我們要盡速的來討論修法的方向"},{"start":26947.31,"end":26964,"text":"不然現在的結果就是怎麼樣每一天有32個交通事故他們可能面臨每一天32個以上的交通事故沒有完整的保障那他的這個惡劣的環境呢其實他們也非常的辛苦喔在這個情況之下還可能演算法不透明也因此被演算法霸凌都有可能"},{"start":26964.58,"end":26982.599,"text":"所以我們希望有相關的立法方向第一個民定最低的外送費的保障第二個是要有一個公開透明的演算法的這個演算法的機制以及制度化的申訴機制因為他們如果突然被停工他也就是突然就不能工作了那第四個是加強相關的職業保險"},{"start":26984.281,"end":27012.06,"text":"第五個我們當然也希望讓這個產業可以長長久久所以我們希望平衡平台外送員商家跟消費者之間的權利義務所以院長這幾個方向請問您是不是支持謝謝委員提出幾個重點我也知道現在大院裡面也正在討論這個事情那其實行政院從過去一段時間就一直在注意整個外送員的基本的權利所以我們也請這個交通部跟勞動部就"},{"start":27013.171,"end":27036.202,"text":"沒關係 院長因為這個難得可以直接質詢到你我相信很多細節未來我們可以在各個委員會跟兩位部長討論可是本席只是要一個態度 要院長一個態度因為其實已經拖很久 大家都是中央以前在修法的過程中 中央就是各個單位不想當主責機關可是我要跟院長報告 今天早上本席開了記者會"},{"start":27037.262,"end":27061.805,"text":"那今天早上民進黨團也開了記者會也表明支持所以難得立法院這個藍綠白大家都支持雖然現在還沒有民進黨團的版本可是已經有多位國民黨的委員版本以及民眾黨的版本那現在民進黨有版本的還沒送進來所以代表三方都同意了雖然說過去完全執政應該可以匆匆容容就可以立法"},{"start":27062.225,"end":27082.516,"text":"但是現在匆匆忙忙的補上來沒關係大家一起努力所以希望本席這裡希望說院長也可以好好支持然後很多細節我們未來可以討論但是想要先看院長的態度是否支持這樣的修法我們現在有一個指引就是整個行為有一個勞動部有一個指引那這個指引的內容我們如果要任何他法治化的話"},{"start":27083.561,"end":27109.802,"text":"他必須要充充分分的而且要方方面面都要達到我們當然希望好好的討論因為之前的指引其實有很多市政府有地方的自治法規可是他遇到問題就是因為沒有上位的法沒有母法甚至到憲法的制度之後他可能在法院打官司講不清楚所以這就是為什麼現在我們要趕緊立法所以希望說我們大家可以一起來努力來增進產業好不好 謝謝"},{"start":27110.543,"end":27133.296,"text":"跟委員報告其實對於外送員跟相關權益的法制化其實這幾個月我們一直在研議那剛剛委員在講的幾個問題我們也都覺得是可以有把它法制化的空間所以我們也對於立法法制化這件事情持更開放的態度我們也很願意接下來在立法院跟朝野的委員一起來做討論好好討論跟審議因為這是可以朝野一起合作"},{"start":27133.696,"end":27159.458,"text":"謝謝部長也謝謝院長這個很正面的態度所以我們一起來努力我們希望盡速推動這個修法然後完善平台以及完善這個尤其是外送從業人員的權益那還有各方面的利益的平衡這個是我們大家共同的努力好謝謝 謝謝兩位部長請回好 謝謝兩位部長請回再來院長想要請問一下落實居住正義是政府最重要的政策之一這句話是誰說的"},{"start":27162.313,"end":27179.613,"text":"歷屆的總統都說過這樣的話很好所以這是完全的自據這是2023年的時候選總統的賴清德總統講的那院長我也想請教一下您對於賴總統對於居住正義承諾有哪些您懂不懂我們有百萬租屋計畫是"},{"start":27181.227,"end":27196.897,"text":"好 除了百萬租屋計畫之外其實還有包括你沒有講嘛推動囤房稅2.0嘛 對不對然後2023年要累積新辦25萬戶的社會住宅對不對這直接新辦喔還有25萬戶包租貸款50萬戶租金補貼嘛好所以所以顯而易見喔"},{"start":27200.419,"end":27220.049,"text":"實踐這個居住正義除了是總統院長的責任也是民意對於這個東西的嚮往居住正義的嚮往所以現在才有很多年輕人為了買房很痛苦那我也相信院長大家都願意大刀闊斧的來推動來誠實面對國人對不對那所以包含過去的這個居住正義三支箭"},{"start":27220.609,"end":27247.898,"text":"社宅啦 實價登錄就是租屋補貼實價登錄以及新清安貸款的居住正義三件是不是都是過去的這個重要的政策那我們今天要來討論這件事就是希望務實的來看待這個成果所以我想要請教院長的第一件事情是賴清德承諾達到社會住宅25萬戶在2032年請問賴總統上任後至今規劃且核定的社會住宅數量是多少戶"},{"start":27249.717,"end":27256.519,"text":"數量請報告委員我們目前在今年度我們已經合訂了1170戶你說從賴總統那裡合訂的1100多戶很好但是我跟你說遠遠不夠你們目前為止這個是完全的落後"},{"start":27267.002,"end":27281.849,"text":"跟委員報告我們因為是要採新辦所以我們包括說多元的方式包括都跟分會等等我知道可以有很多理由很多藉口可是我們直接看KPI就是差蠻遠的你到2032年你要蓋這麼多萬戶25萬戶總共要累積到25萬戶其實是差蠻多的"},{"start":27286.451,"end":27314.076,"text":"所以我想要跟你們說的這個兩點跟委員報告過去的12萬戶他數量已經增加到一定程度所以可用的土地大概用的比較多了目前我們採多元的方式用不同的管道跟民間合作或是容積的取回院長我剛剛前面就講過我們要針對不同包含社宅各個方方面面我們一起來檢視一下成績那我認為說其實目前的這個進度就是不夠好憑良心講 院長我不相信你這樣是很滿意的成果"},{"start":27314.736,"end":27339.185,"text":"以色載興建的部分所以我們為了加快我們有多元的方式你是你要告訴我你很滿意沒有我們要跟委員報告就是說院長所指涉的多元的方式其實就包括說我們在直接興辦的部分我們包括會與民間合作我們包括會與地方政府合作這個都在做這個都在做相關的分回方式來處理相關的興辦不會只有直接興建這件事情我們一個一個來檢視成果不好意思我們一個一個來檢視成果"},{"start":27340.385,"end":27358.59,"text":"所以剛剛有講到現在的這個總數量其實已完工了以中央來講其實是7400多戶7400多戶當然還有一些準備要做的可是我想要講的事情是原定那我再繼續問一下吧原定今年將發包1.5萬戶的社宅目前是發包多少你剛說絕標1000多戶對不對"},{"start":27361.755,"end":27378.297,"text":"但是以前上次之前的內政部長說每一年都計劃發包1.5萬戶啊你這樣完成率大概只有10% 11%所以你剛講的這麼多我們只是想要務實理性的面對就是目前這塊來不及跟上也做不好"},{"start":27379.364,"end":27406.654,"text":"我們包括都更分回的部分其實也有7000多戶然後再來就是說相關的發包的作業我們其實正在進行因為土地的取得的確比較困難所以我們要再跟地方政府合作目前我們透過區段徵收等等有一些分回的土地地方政府也很願意跟我們配合相關的都更分回的土地或者是區段徵收分回的土地問題是你們現在決定到什麼時候幾戶現在可不可以講得出來我們到年底之前我們會盡量完成相關的發包"},{"start":27407.914,"end":27423.335,"text":"盡量完成相關發包 你預計幾戶我們就是在一萬五千戶的這樣子的一個目標下我們繼續努力所以你現在一千多戶然後你到年底要可以發包一萬五千戶啊你現在到年底差已經有分為七千多戶的都更戶都更分回"},{"start":27424.298,"end":27447.351,"text":"我想要告訴你也是社宅這一塊喔其實真的是不如人民的預期結果也不夠所以你才會想說我要用多元的方式去做可是事實上你們過去承諾是直接興建社宅數據就是不夠好那再來我請教一下院長喔新清安貸款的全名是什麼新清安貸款的全名是什麼你曉得嗎全名全部的名稱就是"},{"start":27449.447,"end":27464.602,"text":"協助青年沒關係我院長跟你說叫做青年安心成家購屋優惠貸款清金方案好那我想要請問一下院長你心目中的青年是幾歲到幾歲我知道親親但是沒有年齡限制對那你心目中的青年幾歲到幾歲"},{"start":27466.104,"end":27484.121,"text":"我覺得現在大概40歲以下都是青山會的會員很好 你說40歲以下嘛那你知道40歲以上還申請新青安的戶數有幾戶嗎因為青青安本身它沒有這個所謂年齡的基本限制好 它整整34765戶 40歲以上那50歲以上有幾戶你們不知道嘛 對不對6765戶 60歲以上有幾戶"},{"start":27493.437,"end":27501.283,"text":"867戶所以剛剛我院長你說這樣子聽起來你會不會覺得新清安這名字很奇怪應該把青年拿掉吧如果你沒有限定的話"},{"start":27504.252,"end":27523.707,"text":"當時的清安貸款其實基本上包括進進方案就是針對就是說有需要居住的人他的居住需求那他可以來申請所以我們基本上是以年輕人為主但是他有居住需求的他也可以來申請另外院長我想要請教一下那你只要年收入超過200萬以上申請新清安的戶數是多少"},{"start":27525.593,"end":27550.811,"text":"200萬以上的現在看到的數據是18600多戶300萬以上是6700多戶400萬以上是3071戶所以我想要表達的事情是他都有一個共同的要件他必須首購而且自用你首購是一個啦但是當然因為平坦講你這個貸款的量有限嘛你的這個預算和你幫忙的量也有限嘛所以"},{"start":27551.351,"end":27574.739,"text":"我想要問的事情是那這樣子真的有用到刀口上嗎還是造成的效果是什麼這是我們剛剛要檢討的第二件事如果是首購的話表示他原來不是自己有一個房屋他可能是租屋可能是其他可能是衣巾等等那如果首購他至少能夠自己用自己的力量來買到一個房子我剛剛把數據都用出來我只是要跟你探討說這樣子的是不是真的有用到刀口上"},{"start":27575.299,"end":27598.127,"text":"所以我想要問一下說行政院也推出新清安帶得到的方案那你們宣布自今年9月1號起將新清安排除在銀行法72條之2嘛那不動產的比例在限制之外想要請問一下那到這個到底是管制到什麼時候是到結束日期是到什麼時候有設定嗎還是說就等到新清安整個結束我們是希望在這整個貸款的額度比較"},{"start":27598.925,"end":27613.605,"text":"接近滿水位的過程底下他警洩線套達的時候做一點管制將來如果我們能夠取回更多的現在的其他的貸款能夠取回更多的話那這個空間能夠下降的話那可以再請金管會來共同研商"},{"start":27613.905,"end":27640.011,"text":"院長我想要說的事情是其實資源都有限我們今天之所以討論然後講了這麼多數據就是要提醒資源有沒有用在刀口上這樣的資格或是相關的事情是不是要好好想一下說到底應該怎麼使用所以這是我想要講的這個點新青安就到這裡因為時間有限我其實後面想要表達蠻多的我補充一個數字我們百分之新青安貸款有99%左右是用在就是說它是第一次首購組"},{"start":27640.871,"end":27663.943,"text":"所以基本上他還是合理的使用在這些青年或者是需要購房子的首購處裡面所以他並沒有大部分拿去投資炒作後面這句話我沒有這樣指控你喔我沒有這樣指控你喔為什麼那些年輕人的所得當然是他要買的房子跟他的所得之間是有關係的啊他的所得如果不夠他也沒有辦法去帶到合理的房價不過你也可以去市場上問一問啦"},{"start":27664.423,"end":27692.573,"text":"你也可以去市場上問一問這個我相信多次的質詢都已經點出這個問題這個是不用辯駁的新青安下去之後是讓房價是越來越高的這是絕對的現實的狀況就是這樣你有真的達到你當初想要推動所謂的居住正義完整的方案然後讓年輕人真的可以有享有到居住正義嗎這是今天我提出這個相關數據的一個問題下一個要檢討的地方就是所謂的租金補貼施加登錄"},{"start":27693.633,"end":27711.951,"text":"租金補貼實價登錄之前就講過你們透過租金補貼其實短期很好我們當然是紓解這些青年需要弱勢租金的壓力但是中期是希望可以誘導房東登錄可以登錄可以報稅再來就是希望建立完整的租金實價登錄的資料庫"},{"start":27712.992,"end":27736.831,"text":"那我們才可以形成所謂這個市場的秩序跟價格的透明這就是租屋市場我們希望達到的一個政策目標可是上次我其實在一年多前我總諮詢的時候就有說你們補貼的戶數是將近60萬戶可是真正有登錄的只有10萬戶所以等於相對來講就是有這個黑數50萬戶那到了今年我有去看了成長了很不錯成長了變成16萬戶可是還有多少萬戶還是有30幾萬戶是黑數"},{"start":27741.915,"end":27759.614,"text":"還是有39萬護士回溯是不是這樣子要跟委員報告實價登錄的部分租金實價登錄的部分首先包租代管的業者他是必須一定要登錄這是由包租代管來處理至於其他的部分因為個人房東的部分佔了89%那麼許多的租金的補貼為什麼我們沒辦法做我們其實行政院"},{"start":27760.954,"end":27784.763,"text":"我們在那個每一年都會公佈兩次的租金區域的分佈狀況但是事實就是事實沒有達到政策目標或是不夠好我們就誠實面對然後我們來想辦法一起來改進我們會進行相關的租金的公佈但是租金的公佈要涉及到一個東西是他的租金的實價登錄會涉及到每一個屋型每一個房型每一個房東投入的狀況不同區段的不同"},{"start":27785.203,"end":27800.134,"text":"所以你做租金實價登錄其實反而會影響的租金市場跟租屋市場的影響同一棟樓的兩間房子他不一定是同樣的狀況同樣的現在還有很多的相關的問題我們現在沒有要一一細節拆下去就拆下去講不完反而會造成租金的上漲"},{"start":27800.774,"end":27830.187,"text":"所以我們希望說透過市長那我就想問啦如果你今天做了這件事情你覺得自愛難行有很多的問題的時候你一直補一堆錢進去那他是不是早知越來越糟糕的惡性循環呢所以我們會透過租金的區域的公佈租金的實價的區域的公佈我們其實都有在公佈我們每一年的那個開學前的那兩次院長不好意思 市長我們其實剛剛講了我們是針對每一件事情我拆開來告訴你們你們現在的成果"},{"start":27830.587,"end":27850.234,"text":"就是不打標嘛那我們大家前面我也開頭講我相信院長願意誠實面對現在的數字我們來一起想辦法一起來努力看怎麼解決嘛當然要檢討該檢討的做不好就是要去檢討但是今天之所以講了這幾個方面也就是想要跟你們說目前看起來你們做的這些事情"},{"start":27850.894,"end":27873.447,"text":"做下去之後成效還是很糟糕所謂很糟糕就是居住正義還是越來越高像南比爾公布的數據房價所得比19.6那代表是年輕人要不吃不喝20年才買得起房子當然他這可能是針對都會區但是當然內政部公布全台灣也是10點多等於是不吃不喝10年才買得起市區一點的都16 17 18 19這個是一個很嚴重的狀況所以簡單來講現在"},{"start":27880.071,"end":27898.093,"text":"房屋買不起租屋租不好設宅等不到嘛對不對所以我要講的事情是設宅基本上現在看起來剛剛數據就是供給緩慢杯水車薪再來租金補貼就是落入這個黑洞的善意有很多錢進去了也有聽過那個屋主說好3000塊一人一半"},{"start":27899.754,"end":27919.675,"text":"那這個也沒有什麼好處所以才要把這個當作有一個好的一個手法方法來處理這個邏輯狀況下我們現在要誠實面對租金跟房客之間的權益關係要把它明確化新清安現在還有講到新清安剛剛講租金了嘛租金是這個善意的黑洞嘛所以你才要調整嘛沒錯嘛"},{"start":27920.316,"end":27941.246,"text":"現在就是新青安也是新青安之前算是飲鴆止渴它導致市場也往上的在漲結果是這樣所以導致我們遇到的危機就還是持續的上升今天本席想要說的事情是如果居住正義三支線的效能受到質疑了我們有沒有第四條路徑可以來做呢"},{"start":27942.106,"end":27959.242,"text":"會不會來做呢所以我想要本席想要在這裡就是想要大膽的建議一下我覺得我想要問一下院長我們可不可以想像給年輕人給年輕人在捷運站附近買得到一坪將近成本價也就是一坪可能20到25萬的房子"},{"start":27960.302,"end":27988.758,"text":"我們在捷運站附近有租金的一些特別的補助方式那剛剛委員所說的我們剛剛幾個政策資金下來就是一直在把它優化所以院長我今天要特別的打開第四條道路剛剛講的是說先面對現在的狀況可是看起來它的惡性循環就在發生我們要有新的結構可能要有新的東西來加入所以本席想要大膽的建議一個政策建議您可以回去研究一下可負擔宅"},{"start":27989.378,"end":28006.715,"text":"半永久性的可負擔宅也就是說我們希望參考其實有一些國際案例包含新加坡的主屋所以我們希望說在一個限定的市場裡面也就是說封閉的市場裡面嚴格限制買賣資格讓政府來打造一個封閉市場"},{"start":28008.296,"end":28027.51,"text":"這個預防投機客炒作然後我們可以再透過結合TOD的方式也就是捷運線附近的可以給政府的增額容積獎勵的部分政府可以拿出來做這種所謂的封閉市場的半永久性的可負擔宅我舉個例子可能是99年"},{"start":28028.63,"end":28043.272,"text":"可能是99年然後你要限制他買賣的金額比如說你就只能夠用一定的公式你就只能夠用一定的公式所以基本上成功比較成功的案例我們可以參考的像是新加坡主屋他有嚴格的申請資格的審查"},{"start":28044.033,"end":28070.042,"text":"譬如說你一定是居民不用講那你可能要結婚結婚有多少點數小孩有多少點數然後再來你第一手買進來之後第二手嚴格限制他的轉售的條件也就是說你五年後才可以轉可是你轉的人也是必須讓政府來審核你一定要符合相對的條件你才可以來申請這個轉售然後第三個封閉市場也可以防止他暴力的增幅和那個生成"},{"start":28070.902,"end":28089.233,"text":"所以我們想要說的事情是一個使用權的可負擔宅的模式搭配上TOD讓政府把他們的土地像現在蓋設宅一樣有部分的容積拿出來打造這樣子的一個市場一個多元性的選擇一個中間型的住宅我相信這個是一個可以做到的事情"},{"start":28089.873,"end":28112.071,"text":"所以這有幾個好處土地 國有 房屋常用然後它的價格會跟成本掛鉤它不會跟市場掛鉤然後封閉的市場它可以拒絕炒作再來它有一個永續的公共資產它也可以隨著TOD的城市發展去做開發然後讓這些人可以享有這樣子的房子而且它長期居住不會感覺到"},{"start":28113.254,"end":28131.006,"text":"我時間到了 社宅六年到了 八年到了我又要回去租屋市場我們的地上全宅 使用全宅都有這樣的類似概念我知道那個委員發言我們的青年婚姻宅本來就是12年我們就是希望讓12年還不夠我剛剛講了新加坡的這個參考本席想要"},{"start":28144.298,"end":28144.318,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":28172.253,"end":28184.547,"text":"好谢谢两位乡委员咨询谢谢卓院长相关部会所长贝勋谢谢我们谢谢林培祥委员范云委员跟林月勋委员陪同我们一起参与我们今天的总咨询现在休息十分钟"},{"start":28838.069,"end":28851.998,"text":"好抱怨会我们现在继续开会请各位格言就座接下来我们请林月琴委员咨询邮号委员请准备"},{"start":28867.003,"end":28893.108,"text":"主席麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的市部長韓院長在這裡說出口不好意思 左院長麻煩請左院長備詢議委員好院長辛苦了今天整天質詢"},{"start":28894.315,"end":28916.814,"text":"那今天希望能夠跟你討論司法少年處遇的問題那司法處遇少年事實上是牽扯到的會事實上是整個的事實上也就是社安網那我一直再三強調社安網不是社工的社安網需要的事實上是跨單位的一個緊密的合作才能夠串聯所有的服務"},{"start":28918.035,"end":28931.886,"text":"那可是在這個要串聯緊密的跨部會的話事實上就要我們明確的那個所謂的事權分工可是看到事權分工呢我們就要來問的是說因為事案碗的一個分工"},{"start":28933.827,"end":28958.704,"text":"我上個會期就質詢過說未婦也看到這樣子的一個問題說那我們就來跨部會開一個會針對於一組折多協力原則提出討論看起來很好也就是說今天依法組折如果有法的話誰就是那個單位組折那如果法沒有的話就是政策如果政策歸屬在誰就誰身上那在沒有的話就是依對象比如說這個"},{"start":28959.448,"end":28983.385,"text":"服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的實在都沒有的話就是共同寫商看起來這種分工原則聽起來很有道理可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題而這些問題恐怕就是要院長才能有辦法來做協調我們今天就提出三個問題首先我想談的是男子兒少跟安置機構困境的問題"},{"start":28984.285,"end":29010.002,"text":"為什麼要談這個題目呢因為今年邵氏法的院版的草案已經送到立院來那我留意到說邵氏法已經有增訂轉換安置機構處分的條文我認為這樣子的一個調整力非常良善而且也非常符合二選公約所談的多元化的一個處遇和最佳符合孩子的最佳利益不過問題來了"},{"start":29012.243,"end":29030.234,"text":"什麼樣的問題呢我想看這張簡報應該也知道也就是說今天我們的政府部門看到的是今天如果事實上在講床位的時候我們就看到是似乎我們整個的"},{"start":29034.162,"end":29055.928,"text":"司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導幾乎都是轉感化教育所以十年來銳減的事實上是九成為什麼會有這樣的狀況自己司法院的邵家廷也講說因為就是沒有安置機構最後就只能是去做感化教育可是"},{"start":29058.649,"end":29080.143,"text":"整個來看的話我們看到的是什麼呢因為機構的資源有限那少年照顧的難度事實上非常高過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多可是他要安置那司法少年事實上在安置的時候他的問題也非常的多可是民間機構講說他如果在承接的話他的人力事實上是一個問題有沒有專業人力"},{"start":29080.603,"end":29107.381,"text":"人力能不能符合我們的所謂的人數跟少年的比例還有一個就是經費那民間團體大概他一個孩子安置的話要5萬到8萬可是我們政府大概給2萬3的這樣子一個安置費用所以為什麼大家不願意承接我們台灣113年安置機構總共110家可是目前只有15家有補助而且這15家裡面有40%他是"},{"start":29108.752,"end":29121.831,"text":"只有做男子兒少的話只做40%那可是只有兩家願意承接我們的司法的安置少年所以難怪司法院在安置的時候他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去所以我想問說部長和院長你們覺得"},{"start":29125.963,"end":29144.957,"text":"現在為什麼機構不願意做那到底可以有什麼樣的解放跟委員說明確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來等於都是混收所以對這一類的司法少年確實對安置機構來講他的照顧上是比較複雜"},{"start":29146.098,"end":29173.074,"text":"那我們現在給的這個安置機構大概分成安置費 專業服務費那我按照那個等級也有區分也有分成三級在給部長 男子兒安置有時候要到1比1可是實際上你人力補助的話根本就沒辦法所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是來調整那個費用特別是我們對那個"},{"start":29174.654,"end":29188.642,"text":"機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來然後再把這個專業服務費看看能不能夠來調整所以部長可不可以先考量到因為110家只有15家願意做而且司法案子也只有兩家男子兒的話只有15家"},{"start":29189.222,"end":29203.977,"text":"那表示什麼民間它的經營的痛點政府可能難以去理解然後我認為應該要有個試辦或研究計畫來釐清到底為什麼原因到底出在哪邊是人力還是經費還是它後端因為我過去在民間的時候常常處理是"},{"start":29204.577,"end":29219.922,"text":"而教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到指引說學校就是在安置機構旁邊搞不好要更遠的地方他才能就讀這都會造成安置機構的人力的一個成本可不可以先做這樣子的一個研究之後來了解到問題的時候才能夠去解決問題那再來就要問部長說"},{"start":29223.984,"end":29234.277,"text":"我們這個事辦計畫我們可以來支持那也想問部長跟院長你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責"},{"start":29235.871,"end":29253.782,"text":"是衛福部呢還是地方政府還是司法院為什麼我這樣子問老實說目前的法定權責交織就是看似各部會都有一個工作那可是都有管理責任呢可是如果少年出現到一些問題的時候沒有一個單位可以來做解決"},{"start":29254.722,"end":29270.768,"text":"為什麼這樣講司法院說衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任衛福部又說那司法安置主責應該是法院跟保護官那機構實質上一樣管理是屬於地方"},{"start":29271.528,"end":29300.516,"text":"那雙方講的都沒有錯可是地方政府事實上是關鍵可是問題來了地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者一方面他要拜託安置機構來提供服務可是一方面他要透過管理手段去管理他所以就會有求援兼裁判的問題所以中央固然有政策方向跟原則可是在地方自治底下實際落地又會因為承接的對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一"},{"start":29300.996,"end":29324.607,"text":"所以就會保持出現不同的委託的委辦的一個合作模式所以就想要來談一下可以看到監察院在111年他已經提出來也就是說司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理的一個模式這就是地方在執行的時候不一的那個狀況會造成"},{"start":29325.908,"end":29344.2,"text":"孩子的權益受到損害那去年呢去年我們我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待放任機構這樣子做那今年呢"},{"start":29344.816,"end":29365.131,"text":"結果吹哨者竟然被懲罰所以表示114年現在問題都還是存在著同樣是放任機構不當對待而且對於這揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制好像大家都希望不要有人揭發安置機構的一些倉巴一樣可是誰提誰倒楣"},{"start":29366.152,"end":29383.127,"text":"怎麼會是今天加害人他的一個罰款比較低然後吹哨者反而事實上是用最高那誰以後敢去接這種長巴當然我覺得那是地方對可是中央我想也不能夠拿掉這個責任就像當初"},{"start":29383.598,"end":29400.175,"text":"院長也是花蓮一旦發生事情的時候馬上我們就去救災了所以那這事實上是孩子的權益怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候這個花蓮縣政府竟然沒有來做處理坐任這樣的事情發生"},{"start":29400.835,"end":29421.266,"text":"所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來做協助協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理並且要提出一些資源因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題那不知道院長這邊因為這個是監察院提出報告的內容"},{"start":29423.956,"end":29444.03,"text":"第二個事實上是我的因為我們已經是揭發的倒不是監察院所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有因為現在我手頭上又還有一個另外一個安置機構也是同樣在花蓮縣也是有這樣的問題那我就會不會去進行了解一下到底長期管理適當的問題現在有沒有一個"},{"start":29445.356,"end":29473.98,"text":"面對問題的改善計畫或是我們要做什麼的協助那這個除了衛福部之外對小朋友、對兒童、教育啦各種方面都要把它納進來一併討論好 謝謝石部長確實這個過去我們大概都是訂政策、訂原則那麼給計畫的一些補助地方是在落實執行不過在這個剛剛特別提到有關於接避者的保護"},{"start":29475.22,"end":29495.372,"text":"是 麻煩石部長因為為什麼揭弊者我們還是要保護他謝謝部長接下來我們是主席麻煩我們的兩個正部長就法務部跟教育部 謝謝麻煩請法務部長 教育部長背景想先問院長就是《掃腳條例》目前進度是什麼請部長來說明一下"},{"start":29497.062,"end":29523.911,"text":"因為距離上次公告已經大概三年了我知道今年五月已經送院審核了所以是不是這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度因為我們很關心尤其為什麼這麼關心呢因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為儲育為核心那教育的一個能量就是沒有辦法進來為什麼會這樣子提呢我們看到這個就知道說"},{"start":29525.131,"end":29541.245,"text":"在重大案件裡邊會看到的是什麼也就是我們的重大通報的案件近三年的矯正的重大案件通報包含信憑事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象而且三年增加了"},{"start":29542.266,"end":29570.323,"text":"1.6倍整体的通报量也成长了85%所以我说刚刚讲没有与教育处于核心的话就会发生这种状况所以我们当然有希望说那是不是应该要来做一个如果能够扫脚条例赶快出来的话那才有办法去解决这样子的一个问题点而且生对生的冲突在今年5月我们的少年矫正学校的霸凌防治跟处理具体措施正式上路之后"},{"start":29570.868,"end":29586.863,"text":"這些重大的一個通報的事件的後續處理我們也希望能夠把霸凌的一個議題涵蓋在其中才能夠真正的去解決問題所以想問兩個部長在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同的合作在僥倖體系的時候"},{"start":29588.246,"end":29602.408,"text":"跟委員先報告那個少小條例那部分那個修法的草案那個今天要落實就是以教育為核心那這個草案的部分修正條文已經送信在那省用的審查那也在今天10月2號有給我們"},{"start":29603.61,"end":29618.669,"text":"我們再來趕緊的業力那剛委員關心的就是那個我們兩個部會我們是合作無間因為像我們少角學校那個課綱也都是按照教育部的那個課綱來做的那另外委員關心的那個姓平的"},{"start":29620.351,"end":29647.392,"text":"對 他成長了1.6倍這個霸凌跟性平這部分那個霸凌的那部分我們有一個法部有一個少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理的具體措施那這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的一個機制那這部分我們跟教育部是有充分的一個合作不過部長我比較希望是從預防的角度上來看不是通報所以你的教育"},{"start":29648.452,"end":29666.587,"text":"還有就師資的知能跟敏感度希望能夠再度的成長而不是等到後端才來做處理還有身對身這一塊也想問兩個部長說因為幾乎身對身的衝突那後續輔導機制到底你們怎麼做"},{"start":29668.749,"end":29694.065,"text":"也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼"},{"start":29695.793,"end":29713.51,"text":"從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想"},{"start":29717.293,"end":29731.729,"text":"整個從學校的一些輔導課程到性平霸凌等等包括預防性的這些輔導我們跟華為部是合作無績我非常肯定在特殊教育就是矯正學校在輔導廚藝上的一個努力"},{"start":29732.43,"end":29754.344,"text":"不管事實上是輔導空間跟輔導專輔的人力的緣額還有最近還引進了適應體育的引入不過還是要特別提醒將近有10%具有特見的證明的孩子事實上是在我們的少角學校裡邊還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊請你們還是要特別去注意"},{"start":29755.137,"end":29784.521,"text":"最後當然就是期待院長這邊針對於我覺得安置機構這個困境應該要去正視這個問題第二個是不是檢討中央跟地方在針對委辦安置機構的管理模式還有第三個教育部跟法務部應該積極的一個合作當然我們更期待是掃腳條例能夠趕快送進來最後就是一個小問題就是也是一個重大的問題一樣也是部會的因為我們的演算法危害非常的大"},{"start":29784.901,"end":29794.303,"text":"不管是監察院八月提出來報告也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極的怠惰要求我們改善對T-talk的社群的安全管理"},{"start":29829.049,"end":29841.754,"text":"好谢谢林月琴委员质询谢谢卓院长相关部会首长贝勋谢谢接下来我们本日最后一位质询的委员我们现在请游浩委员请质询"},{"start":29856.852,"end":29870.313,"text":"謝謝院長 還有請行政院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢游委員好"},{"start":29871.021,"end":29896.849,"text":"非常好那剛才延續三位委員所提到的Ttalk那我個人目前來講認為像現在假訊息充斥在網路上尤其是在去年的時候印象中這假訊息委員會還行政院有宣示要來進行成立來打擊這個假訊息跟目前的這網路亂象那想要直接就教一下院長目前假訊息委員會的進度如何"},{"start":29899.09,"end":29918.1,"text":"我們是希望結合民間的組織我們像我們這個事實查核的組織或是國際的NGO共同來處理到目前為止到沒有很具體說要成立一個所謂假訊息委員會當然我們知道這個問題非常的嚴重啦但是我們現在現有的機制來做一些有效的處置"},{"start":29919.189,"end":29944.648,"text":"好 那沒關係 那想跟院長還是再次提醒就是在去年的時候 那時候你還沒就任以前在之前的院長其實也有在總諮詢的時候也有宣誓那希望這個假訊息委員會要做一個成立那我相信其實部長其實也都有在這個NGO相關的一些團體還有在做一些溝通"},{"start":29945.308,"end":29959.444,"text":"那本席在這裡就直接明確的請教院長這個假訓習委員會未來的規劃是會一樣持續朝著成立的方向來去進行還是說這個部分還是未定之天"},{"start":29960.014,"end":29982.276,"text":"在強化現有機制的情況底下如果現有機制沒有辦法來有效遏止的話那朝向一個組織來形成這個是必要的那數法部已經有相當多的包括我們現在的這個新的法律都在手我們可不可以做一樣強而有力的管制數法部要不要說明一下目前狀況跟委員報告就如同剛剛我們院長所說的"},{"start":29984.038,"end":29997.23,"text":"台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家在我們這樣的國家裡面訊息的真假不應該由政府來判斷由政府來判斷的話通常反而會造成更多的紛擾所以我們在"},{"start":29998.451,"end":30025.98,"text":"看到世界各民主國家通常是透過NGO來判斷這個訊息的真假那當然我們知道說NGO在處理這個假訊息的時候他通常限於他的能量還有作業速度所以他每個禮拜他能處理的訊息量有限所以我們速發部現在的做法就是想辦法來幫助這些NGO我們當然不是NGO不能直接給他補助但是我們想辦法幫他募款舉例來講"},{"start":30027.901,"end":30056.93,"text":"那沒關係部長因為時間有限那我也知道您是非常的專業了解相關的進度那本席還是延續這個部分要表示的是第一T-talk的部分來講該治標還不是是應該要治本所以說T-talk的訊息不管怎麼樣回歸到假訊息委員會才是能夠根本來解決目前在社會網路所會充斥的各種錯誤訊息所以說我覺得標重要本也重要"},{"start":30057.25,"end":30077.866,"text":"那在假訊息委員會我後續持續再跟部長在委員會再持續討論沒關係但是至少過去行政院有提到要成立假訊息委員會的一個進程那目前的時間上來講確實有嚴重delay那我們後面來看如何來做完善那也謝謝部長那接著我要接著就教院長"},{"start":30078.607,"end":30093.826,"text":"就是在目前來講大家都很關心的就是光電板的部分那包括龔明星部長也等一下可能會回答到在不管烏山頭水庫農田水圈許多的用水的安全性現在民眾是非常的擔憂"},{"start":30094.827,"end":30120.52,"text":"那因為之前沒有制定標準所以在水面關電板它沒有環評的一個情況下那時候是有提到說怕廠商不願投資但是現在環境部部長其實也說願意來進行這個環評審查那因為這個部分攸關於這個整個太陽能政策那相關的一個態度那所以本席要在這裡直接請教部長還有經濟部是否支持環境部來進行這個環評審查"},{"start":30122.942,"end":30140.934,"text":"環境部應該是在所謂敏感的地區還有山坡地現在會不會可能包括制洪池 水庫都在研議可能要精真這個環評的機制所以院長是認為是支持這個環境部要做環評審查嗎我要問一下院長跟經濟部的態度"},{"start":30143.136,"end":30171.939,"text":"對 他往這個方向再做一些是不是要增加這個部分程序要怎麼處理環境部是已經表達要環評那經濟部這邊是否會配合對 我們會跟環境部來共同討論這樣的議題所以是支持進行審查怎麼樣設計怎麼樣設計一個機制那院長因為現在已經有一些環評的項目是要做的有些啦 比如說在"},{"start":30172.665,"end":30192.452,"text":"自然生態保育區 國家公園或者是野生動物保育區 特農這些都是要環評如果不用環評 事實上現在也是要環社檢核當然有一些環社檢核也許還不夠的情況之下我們再跟環境部討論一下看用什麼樣的形式"},{"start":30193.272,"end":30213.741,"text":"就是可以守住這個環境發展多元的綠能才是國家的重要的現在的這個能源政策那為了要達到這個國家政策能夠讓他順利的來推動當中有一些跟人民之間要增加信賴關係的這個部分我們如何來取得"},{"start":30214.221,"end":30231.62,"text":"那如果有助於這樣的機制產生會有助於未來我們達到我們的綠能要求的話政策 能源政策的話那我們當然朝這個方向來想好沒問題因為本席當然也是認為能源政策的重要但是同樣的用水安全以及環評審查還有共識跟禁毒那同樣的"},{"start":30232.561,"end":30250.28,"text":"那也延續今天有提到監察院寫到的七項光電的缺失那其中光電回饋已經不夠透明的部分那本席要直接就教行政院跟經濟部要如何改善以及不透明的方向方面以及未來後續如何做公開"},{"start":30252.052,"end":30269.934,"text":"對 我們也會重新考慮至少就是說讓這些雙方的回饋金有一個比較透明的類似公式也好或是怎麼樣一個機制一個考量的因素在裡面不會這個是用喊價式的方式要如何公開 會公開在哪裡"},{"start":30270.986,"end":30298.243,"text":"對 我們會就是兩兆我們都會把我們的公司如果會分成兩個階段第一個階段他們當然會彼此去溝通如果可以有一個deal那我們當然是尊重如果不能夠deal我們會介入說我們的原則會是這樣大家考量的原則會是這樣子那期程上進度大約多久會讓民眾看到這樣子的一個改善的一個成果我們盡快來提出好"},{"start":30299.639,"end":30327.594,"text":"那再來因為這個部分會持續追蹤所以我不在這邊繼續追問那接著的話也謝謝兩位部長那接著我要請教一下法務部長那在目前來講網路上最近最熱烈討論的就是這個散兵的部分那包括他們被抓到之後他們也有刑責那很多都是直接認罪那網路上我們也看到有律師說這些所謂的逃兵散兵不管藝人與否應該要來去做自首"},{"start":30329.015,"end":30352.788,"text":"來去換取任何刑責的減刑但是本席想要就教一下政部長還甚至國防部的顧部長在這些被抓到閃兵的人之後他們可能因為有沒有可能因為犯案態度良好或是主動投案或是自首會有可能會有減刑這個應該說自首要件的部分是否會適用於逃兵"},{"start":30355.109,"end":30375.184,"text":"這個跟我們報告因為現在個案是在新北地檢署在偵辦中當然按照刑法的規定自首的話是得檢可以得檢清起刑但是案件會不會成立還要看證據來做一個處理因為這個裡面有涉及到妨礙兵役跟偽造文書的一個問題第一批的"},{"start":30376.019,"end":30395.34,"text":"偵辦的對象都已經起訴而且檢察官也做一個具體求刑那後來這些自首的那有沒有就想說到那個檢察官或者是法官有沒有會考慮到自首的這種的一個法律上的優惠那我想我們尊重偵辦的法官跟檢察官的一些的職權的一個認定"},{"start":30396.141,"end":30423.698,"text":"那目前的話有哪些管道可以讓他來自首以及如何來鼓勵自首那當然說如何來面對這個其他正常當兵的人會感覺到不公平以及相對這個整個差異嘛當然說私房資源不應該是浪費在就是處理這個逃兵嘛那因為應該用於詐欺販毒更立即傷害危險的這種案子那我想問一下這個管道上以及在這個態度上我想是不是來請法務部長來再簡短的說明一下"},{"start":30425.156,"end":30440.653,"text":"反正跟有偵查職權的人這些公務員來自首來自首他自己的一個犯刑一個逃兵、一個閃兵的犯刑那麼就可以達到自首的法律上的一個效果了"},{"start":30441.36,"end":30459.815,"text":"好那沒關係那這個本期還是在這裡也是呼籲啊其實當兵是義務那當然說任何的逃兵閃兵本來就不應該那在任何的管道上還能夠呼籲跟強化這個服兵義務的觀念那也有請這法務部長跟國防部長能夠持續加強"},{"start":30461.436,"end":30482.35,"text":"謝謝那再來剛才延續著我們廖偉祥委員 惠環昭委所提到外送員專法的部分那勞動部長應該也在等著一起就是想請教一下院長跟部長那尤其是院長這個外送員專法那其實也很早之前就一直被討論"},{"start":30483.591,"end":30500.365,"text":"過去本席在擔任議員期間其實也在南投縣議會也提出過外送平台的一個自治條例目前有六個縣市都有目前對於專法院長是否表態支持先請院長跟委員說明"},{"start":30501.464,"end":30526.645,"text":"其實現在行政團隊已經透過跨部會的方式來做整合性的行政指引包括交通部包括勞動部跟幾個相關部會都在進行當然我們其實也做了幾輪的檢討對於現在包括朝野的黨團都有提出外送的專法這樣子的倡議也包括有些相關的提案我想勞動部我們是很願意用一個開放的態度"},{"start":30527.165,"end":30528.808,"text":"我們現在有一個指引 交通部有訂一個指引那主管機關訂"},{"start":30538.41,"end":30566.238,"text":"那勞動部對於外送員本身的權益他必須要強化那如果現在把他強化之後要變成一個專法我們並沒有拒絕或排斥但是必須要在成熟完備他很多法制上的作業那目前我們跨部會正在進行這樣的一個工作那我知道大院裡面多位委員跟草委黨團都有提出我們願意現在趕快加速來一方面有機會參酌委員的意見把他弄成一個更完備的一個法制過程"},{"start":30567.543,"end":30590.232,"text":"所以說部長的話你也是對於外送員專法部長也是持保留態度嗎我嗎當然是啊我沒有持保留態度我是說我用開放的態度在面對這個專法會不會提出院版就像剛剛其實院長說因為這涉及到跨部會的一些權責所以我們對於法制化的工作其實這幾個月已經做相關的研擬"},{"start":30591.745,"end":30620.22,"text":"但是現在進到最後的階段可是因為行政部門的版本通常是需要一定的法制作業部長 這個其實我都清楚其實在西班牙也有歧視法義大利也有外送員保護條款德國也有準勞工的概念當然說這跟交通部長也有相關可是其實在過去勞動部長何沛山他其實就已經提出表達他要提出勞動部來送出的專法院版的版本"},{"start":30620.6,"end":30645.128,"text":"那河沛山至今也已經過了一年多那其實勞動部裡面早也有資料那所以我是直接要就叫部內會不會提出院辦來送因為這個部分有關的是行政院或行政部門太多陳部長來說明好 跟委員報告這個部分其實我們行政院也有指定交通部作為治理機關那我們準備要出一個整合性的指引"},{"start":30645.908,"end":30670.497,"text":"不是只有針對勞動條件因為跨的部會其實蠻多的我們需要一個整合性的執引我們大概在10月底會提出我們的草案整合性執引的草案11月我們會把利害相關人各方面包含消費者 包含外送員包含業者 包含地方政府等等大家會來坐在一起來討論這個執引我們希望在12月底之前完成整套的執引"},{"start":30672.117,"end":30698.076,"text":"那因為這個必須要兼顧僱傭及承攬的相關的這些條件所以說這個回頭來講當然涉及到交通部相關但是同樣的還是會是在勞動部需要來去負責那本席同樣在這裡也是要麻煩到時候要有一個指引之後要有一個院版會較為適宜因為不然任何不管是國民黨團民眾黨團甚至民進黨現在也跟進黨團也跟進要提出版本那任何的版本"},{"start":30698.736,"end":30719.217,"text":"從立院送的話到時候都有一種可能沒有願板又走向市縣所以到時候大家可能怕白忙一場所以說如果說有願板來講的話我覺得也表示不管是從過去合佩山部長所提到的要來送一個專法的版本到現在來講我覺得對於法治的一個完整性以及對勞工的保障應該是最為好的一個方式"},{"start":30719.978,"end":30736.58,"text":"好 謝謝委員的理解你也看聽到我們現在這幾個月努力的過程但行政院的法治化他的這個程序要必須走的比較多一點時間那部長已經提到了十二月底正在明年一月的時候我們是認為可以有一個完整跟立法院來做"},{"start":30737.48,"end":30762.042,"text":"討論的這個事件好 謝謝那再沒關係 那勞動部長 OK 謝謝那我想說就讓交通部長就是施凱部長在這邊那本席要接著直接請教一下上次行政院長左院長有來水里的時候有來看我們保甲林地還有那時候的一個整個治水防洪 治山防洪的一個部分那在地方上的話那時候有跟"},{"start":30763.163,"end":30781.29,"text":"院長有提到水裡的台16線19K到25K那這個也有跟部長有提到過那這個需要做一個拓寬的工程那很早之前其實院內跟部內其實都有相關資料那因為這一個的經費需要納到省道改善計劃向下因為他經費大約"},{"start":30783.716,"end":30805.084,"text":"25億從兩座隧道及五座橋樑那是因為這個攸關到水理跟信義整個安全那一次院長來的時候有許縣長也有提出我也有提出那院長有表達說會積極來協助那白旗長在這裡也直接來救教院長是不是這一案還能夠有後續持續的一個省道改善計畫向的一個支持"},{"start":30805.684,"end":30824.047,"text":"好 請交通部來答問這個案子因為你們有提出那院長當時也有交代我們審改計畫的部分我們現在正在審議公路局正在審議這個案子那我們會盡量來協助這個案子好 謝謝部長那也拜託院長支持可以嗎好 謝謝那部長OK"},{"start":30826.231,"end":30852.296,"text":"接著的話就是在南投的部分可能這個需要跟水利署相關還有自來水相關就是在南投的自來水普及率許縣長在上次卓院長來鳥水潭水庫的那一支啟用典禮時有提到南投的自來水普及都會來協助來加強因為目前來講南投是偏鄉我們在鳥水潭水庫來做"},{"start":30853.877,"end":30868.076,"text":"開啟使用之後來協助彰化縣一半的供水但是在於南投的自來水普及的管線跟經費那目前來講確實是還是嚴重不足所以本席在這裡還是要拜託行政院長"},{"start":30868.817,"end":30887.954,"text":"那南投是非常友善尤其是南投許縣長也非常的來支持許多中央有需要配合的事項但是這個自來水普及率目前來講因為經費上面的一個短缺目前才變成是全國倒數第二的普及率"},{"start":30888.514,"end":30902.04,"text":"那是不是可以對於自來水普及率部長這邊能夠直接的來協助支持以及放寬自來水沿管評比標準還基準從六十萬修正到一百萬未來四年有兩百億的預算投入請部長來說說"},{"start":30903.413,"end":30922.493,"text":"委員提到的沒有錯我們最高是提到一百萬一般的到八十萬特殊的提高一百萬那是不是可以針對南投在鳥賊潭水庫南投因為它算是偏遠地區我們會盡量來協助本來就是要用在偏遠地區的好那這個部分就麻煩後續好不好"},{"start":30923.427,"end":30937.382,"text":"因為最主要是鳥嘴潭我們也是全力的配合包括彰化縣的供水但是如果說在南投縣確實來講也沒有受到照顧的話那本席還是要這裡來表達好 我也請部長特別來加速這個事情好 謝謝OK"},{"start":30939.123,"end":30963.971,"text":"最後的話就是在台灣的半導體目前來講不僅是對美的關稅或是包括302條款所以本來台灣的半導體產業都非常的辛苦包括它的許多的成本提高所以現在產業鏈是嚴重的動盪所以想要直接就教一下院長在半導體生態鏈蕭美琴蕭副總所指出的這個產業鏈生態系它到底是指哪些"},{"start":30966.326,"end":30980.86,"text":"報告委員整個半導體的生態系是從最前端的材料設備開始一直到製造端 封裝端到後來的下游的一些所以說穿了蕭副總統的所謂的生態系就是產業鏈"},{"start":30985.348,"end":31006.044,"text":"不只是產業鏈還包括他的客戶等等一些情況所以就是說台灣的生態體系也是跨國在台灣集結而成的所以就是說我們也希望就是這樣跨國集結的一個完整生態系也可以在其他部分力量延伸到其他的區域去因為"},{"start":31007.401,"end":31027.913,"text":"因為人家到我們這邊來建構我們一個完整的生態系包括美國的這些應用材料也好或者是材料設備也好部長其實你講的本席都理解因為郭志輝前部長他有提到說這些相關的產業類尤其是先進製程是不會過去那目前來講最優先會在台灣沒有錯"},{"start":31028.853,"end":31052.355,"text":"所以說先進製程跟相關制度最先進的所以說能夠依照經濟部產業創新條例第22條嚴格審查以及先進製程他不會外移到海外相關的一個公司或據點就是最先進的會留在台灣沒有錯希望能夠達到跟留台灣的一個目的因為其實目前來講在許多的媒體跟目前在委員會質詢大家確實還是一片的驚恐"},{"start":31053.215,"end":31077.972,"text":"所以說在這個部分網路上我記得今天有提到得工移山我相信如果說我們這個護國神山要守住才是正確的我們要耕留台灣才能夠保住整個產業的一個根基我們會保住台灣的護國群山我早上說過山在台灣 台灣就是山 不會移走好 謝謝好 謝謝油耗委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":31081.178,"end":31103.277,"text":"抱怨會議 我們本日排定質詢的委員均已經質詢完畢再次謝謝卓院長 政府院長 各位閣員各位首長列席答詢也要謝謝范雲委員 林月琴委員還有林佩翔委員陪同我們一起參與施政總質詢現在做以下決定下次會議繼續進行施政報告之質詢現在散會"}]}},{"id":"164481","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164481","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f347acc46a0f91379ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d2bb1958f17482a95c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"16:48:32 - 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還有請省政院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢游委員好"},{"start":23.001,"end":48.829,"text":"非常好那剛才延續三位委員所提到的Ttalk那我個人目前來講認為像現在假訊息充斥在網路上尤其是在去年的時候印象中這假訊息委員會還行政院有宣示要來進行成立來打擊這個假訊息跟目前的這網路亂象那想要直接就教一下院長目前假訊息委員會的進度如何"},{"start":51.069,"end":70.354,"text":"我們是希望結合民間的組織我們像我們這個事實查核的組織或是國際的NGO共同來處理到目前為止到沒有很具體說要成立一個所謂假訊息委員會當然我們知道這個問題非常的嚴重啦但是我們現在現有的機制來做一些有效的處置"},{"start":71.169,"end":96.625,"text":"好那沒關係那想跟院長還是再次就是提醒就是在去年的時候那時候你還沒就在以前在之前的院長其實也有在總諮詢的時候也有宣誓那希望這個假訊息委員會要做一個成立啊那我相信其實部長那其實也都有在這個NGO相關的一些團體還有在做一些溝通"},{"start":97.285,"end":111.426,"text":"那本席在這裡就直接明確的請教院長這個假學習委員會未來的規劃是會一樣持續朝著成立的方向來去進行還是說這個部分還是未定之天"},{"start":111.994,"end":134.606,"text":"在強化現有機制的情況底下如果現有機制沒有辦法來有效遏止的話那朝向一個組織來形成這個是必要的那速發部已經有相當多的包括我們現在的這個新的法律都在手我們可以可不可以做一樣強而有力的管制速發部要不要說明一下目前總部跟委員報告就如同剛剛我們院長所說的那個"},{"start":136.047,"end":149.224,"text":"台灣是一個自由民主法治的國家在我們這樣的國家裡面訊息的真假不應該由政府來判斷由政府來判斷的話通常反而會造成更多的紛擾所以我們在"},{"start":150.445,"end":178.62,"text":"看到世界各民主國家通常是透過NGO來判斷這個訊息的真假那當然我們知道說NGO在處理這個假訊息的時候他通常限於他的能量還有作業速度所以他每個禮拜他能處理的訊息量有限所以我們速發部現在的做法就是想辦法來幫助這些NGO我們當然不是NGO不能直接給他補助但是我們想辦法幫他募款或舉例來講"},{"start":179.881,"end":208.909,"text":"那沒關係部長因為時間有限那我也知道您是非常的專業了解相關的進度啦那本席還是延續這個部分要表示的是第一T-talk的部分來講該治標還不是是應該要治本所以說T-talk的訊息不管怎麼樣回歸到假訊息委員會才是能夠根本來解決目前在社會網路所會充斥的各種錯誤訊息啊所以說我覺得標重要本也重要"},{"start":209.229,"end":229.845,"text":"那在假訊息委員會我後續持續再跟部長在委員會再持續討論沒關係但是至少過去行政院有提到要成立假訊息委員會的一個進程那目前的時間上來講確實有嚴重delay那我們後面來看如何來做完善那也謝謝部長那接著我要接著就教院長"},{"start":230.586,"end":248.841,"text":"就是在目前來講大家都很關心的就是光電板的部分那包括龔明星部長也等一下可能會回答到在不管烏山頭水庫 農田水圈許多的用水的安全性現在民眾是非常的擔憂那因為之前沒有制定標準"},{"start":249.301,"end":272.499,"text":"所以在水面關電板它沒有環評的一個情況下那時候是有提到說怕廠商不願投資但是現在環境部部長其實也說願意來進行這個環評審查那因為這個部分攸關於這個整個太陽能政策那相關的一個態度那所以本席要在這裡直接請教部長還有經濟部是否支持環境部來進行這個環評審查"},{"start":274.919,"end":292.911,"text":"環境部應該是在所謂敏感的地區還有山坡地現在會不會可能包括制洪池 水庫都在研議可能要精真這個環評的機制所以院長是認為是支持這個環境部要做環評審查嗎我要問一下院長跟經濟部的態度"},{"start":295.115,"end":323.895,"text":"對 他往這個方向再做一些是不是要增加這個部分程序要怎麼處理環境部是已經表達要環評那經濟部這邊是否會配合對 我們會跟環境部來共同討論這樣的議題所以是支持進行審查怎麼樣設計怎麼樣設計一個機制那院長因為現在已經有一些環評的項目是要做的有些啦 比如說在"},{"start":324.645,"end":344.431,"text":"自然生態保育區 國家公園或者是野生動物保育區 特農這些都是要環評如果不用環評 事實上現在也是要環社檢核當然有一些環社檢核也許還不夠的情況之下我們再跟環境部討論一下 看用什麼樣的形式"},{"start":345.291,"end":347.132,"text":"就是可以守住這個環境"},{"start":375.311,"end":402.241,"text":"好沒問題因為本席當然也是認為能源政策的重要但是同樣的用水安全以及環評審查還有共識跟禁毒那同樣的那也延續今天有提到監察院寫到的七項光電的缺失那其中光電回饋已經不夠透明的部分那本席要直接就教行政院跟經濟部要如何改善以及不透明的方向方面以及未來後續如何做公開"},{"start":404.031,"end":421.898,"text":"對 我們也會重新考慮啦至少就是說讓這些雙方的回饋金有一個比較透明的類似公式也好或是怎麼樣一個機制一個考量的因素在裡面不會這個是用喊價式的方式要如何公開 會公開在哪裡"},{"start":422.965,"end":449.587,"text":"對 我們會就是兩兆我們都會把我們的公司如果會分成兩個階段第一個階段他們當然會彼此去溝通如果可以有一個deal那我們當然是尊重如果不能夠deal我們會介入說我們的原則會是這樣大家考量的原則會是這樣子那騎乘上進度大約多久會讓民眾看到這樣子的一個改善的一個成果我們盡快來提出"},{"start":451.618,"end":479.574,"text":"那再來因為這個部分會持續追蹤所以我不在這邊繼續追問那接著的話也謝謝兩位部長那接著我要請教一下法務部長那在目前來講網路上最近最熱烈討論的就是這個散兵的部分那包括他們被抓到之後他們也有刑責那很多都是直接認罪那網路上我們也看到有律師說這些所謂的逃兵散兵不管藝人與否應該要來去做自首"},{"start":480.694,"end":504.767,"text":"來去換取任何刑責的減刑但是本席想要就教一下政部長還甚至國防部的顧部長在這些被抓到閃兵的人之後他們可能因為有沒有可能因為犯案態度良好或是主動投案或是自首會有可能會有減刑這個應該說自首要件的部分是否會適用於逃兵"},{"start":507.088,"end":527.143,"text":"這個跟我們報告因為現在個案是在新北地檢署在偵辦中那當然按照刑法的規定自首的話是得檢可以得檢清起刑那但是案件會不會成立那還要看證據來做一個處理因為這個裡面有涉及到妨礙兵役跟偽造文書的一個問題那第一批的"},{"start":527.999,"end":547.664,"text":"偵辦的對象都已經起訴而且檢察官也做一個具體求刑那後來這些自首的那有沒有就想說到那個檢察官或者是法官有沒有會考慮到自首的這種的一個法律上的優惠那我想我們尊重偵辦的法官跟檢察官的一些的職權的一個認定"},{"start":548.12,"end":575.681,"text":"那目前的話有哪些管道可以讓他來自首以及如何來鼓勵自首那當然說如何來面對這個其他正常當兵的人會感覺到不公平以及相對這個整個差異嘛當然說私房資源不應該是浪費在就是處理這個逃兵嘛那因為應該用於詐欺販毒更立即傷害危險的這種案子那我想問一下這個管道上以及在這個態度上我想是不是來請法務部長來再簡短的說明一下"},{"start":577.135,"end":592.635,"text":"凡是跟有偵查職權的人的這些公務員來自首來自首他自己的一個犯刑一個逃兵、一個閃兵的犯刑我想就可以達到自首的法律上的一個效果了"},{"start":593.339,"end":611.797,"text":"好 那沒關係 那這個本席還是在這裡也是呼籲啊其實當兵是義務那當然說任何的逃兵閃兵本來就不應該那在任何的管道上還能夠呼籲跟強化這個服兵義務的觀念那也有請這法務部長跟國防部長能夠持續加強"},{"start":613.419,"end":634.331,"text":"謝謝那再來剛才延續著我們廖偉祥委員 惠環昭委所提到外送員專法的部分那勞動部長應該也在等著一起就是想請教一下院長跟部長那尤其是院長這個外送員專法那其實也很早之前就一直被討論"},{"start":635.271,"end":652.354,"text":"那過去本席在擔任議員期間其實也在南投縣議會也提出過這個外送平台的一個自治條例目前有六個縣市都有那目前對於專法院長是否表態支持先請院長跟委員說明"},{"start":653.443,"end":678.622,"text":"其實現在行政團隊已經透過跨部會的方式來做整合性的行政指引包括交通部包括勞動部跟幾個相關部會我們都在進行當然我們其實也做了幾輪的檢討對於現在包括朝野的黨團都有提出外送的專法這樣子的倡議也包括有些相關的提案我想勞動部我們是很願意用一個開放的態度"},{"start":679.142,"end":680.786,"text":"我們現在有一個指引 交通部有訂一個指引那主管機關訂"},{"start":690.733,"end":718.158,"text":"那勞動部對於外送員本身的權益它必須要強化那如果現在把它強化之後要變成一個專法我們並沒有拒絕或排斥但是必須要在成熟完備它很多法制上的作業那目前我們跨部會正在進行這樣的一個工作那我知道大院裡面多位委員跟草委黨團都有提出我們願意現在趕快加速來一方面有機會參酌委員的意見把它弄成一個更完備的一個法制過程"},{"start":719.386,"end":733.327,"text":"那所以說部長的話你也是對於外送員專法部長也是持保留態度嗎我嗎當然是啊我沒有持保留態度啊我是說我用開放的態度在面對這個專法會不會提出願版"},{"start":734.715,"end":752.566,"text":"就像剛剛其實院長說因為這涉及到跨部會的一些權責所以我們對於法制化的工作其實這幾個月已經做相關的研擬但是當然進到最後的階段可是因為行政部門的版本通常是需要一定的法制作業部長 這個其實我都清楚"},{"start":753.126,"end":778.394,"text":"那其實在西班牙也有歧視法義大利也有外送員保護條款德國也有準勞工的概念那當然說這跟交通部長也有相關可是其實在過去勞動部長何沛山他其實就已經提出表達他要提出這個勞動部來送出的專法那院版的版本那何沛山至今也已經過了一年多那其實勞動部裡面早也有資料"},{"start":778.934,"end":797.108,"text":"那所以我是直接要就叫部內會不會提出院版來送因為這個部分有關的是行政院或行政部門的態度陳部長來說明好 跟委員報告齁這個部分其實我們行政院也有指定交通部作為治理機關那我們準備要出一個整合性的指引"},{"start":797.888,"end":822.49,"text":"不是只有針對勞動條件因為跨的部會其實蠻多的我們需要一個整合性的執引我們大概在10月底會提出我們的草案整合性執引的草案11月我們會把利害相關人各方面包含消費者 包含外送員包含業者 包含地方政府等等大家會來坐在一起來討論這個執引我們希望在12月底之前完成整套的執引"},{"start":824.091,"end":850.069,"text":"那因為這個必須要兼顧僱傭及承攬的相關的這些條件所以說這個回頭來講當然涉及到交通部相關但是同樣的還是會是在勞動部需要來去負責那本席同樣在這裡也是要麻煩到時候要有一個指引之後要有一個院版會較為適宜因為不然任何不管是國民黨團民眾黨團甚至民進黨現在也跟進黨團也跟進要提出版本那任何的版本"},{"start":850.709,"end":871.197,"text":"從立院送的話到時候就有一種可能沒有願板又走向市縣所以到時候大家可能怕白忙一場所以說如果說有願板來講的話我覺得也表示不管是從過去何沛山部長所提到的要來送一個專法的版本到現在來講我覺得對於法治的一個完整性以及對勞工的保障應該是最為好的一個方式"},{"start":872.298,"end":888.656,"text":"好 謝謝委員的理解你也看 聽到我們現在這幾個月努力的過程但行政院的法治化它的這個程序要必須走的比較多一點時間那部長已經提到了十二月底正在明年一月的時候我們是認為可以有一個完整跟立法院來做討論的時間"},{"start":890.478,"end":914.003,"text":"好 謝謝那在 沒關係那勞動部長OK 謝謝那我想說就讓交通部長就是施凱部長在這邊那本席要接著直接請教一下上次行政院長左院長有來水里的時候有來看我們保甲林地還有那時候的一個整個治水防洪治山防洪的一個部分那在地方上的話那時候有跟"},{"start":915.143,"end":933.366,"text":"院長有提到水裡的台16線19K到25K那這個也有跟部長有提到過那這個需要做一個拓寬的工程那很早之前其實院內跟部內其實都有相關資料那因為這一個的經費需要納到省道改善計劃向下因為他經費大約"},{"start":935.709,"end":957.089,"text":"25億從兩座隧道及五座橋樑那是因為這個攸關到水理跟信義整個安全那一次院長來的時候許縣長也有提出我也有提出那院長有表達說會積極來協助那白旗長在這裡也直接來救教院長是不是這一案還能夠有後續持續的一個省道改善計畫向的一個支持"},{"start":957.669,"end":959.411,"text":"好 謝謝部長那也拜託院長支持可以嗎好 謝謝那部長 OK"},{"start":978.21,"end":1004.276,"text":"接著的話就是在南投的部分可能這個需要跟水利署相關還有自來水相關就是在南投的自來水普及率許縣長在上次卓院長來鳥水潭水庫的那次啟用典禮時有提到南投的自來水普及都會來協助來加強因為目前來講南投是偏鄉我們在鳥水潭水庫來做"},{"start":1005.857,"end":1020.056,"text":"開啟使用之後來協助彰化縣一半的供水但是在於南投的自來水普及的管線跟經費那目前來講確實是還是嚴重不足所以本席在這裡還是要拜託行政院長"},{"start":1020.797,"end":1039.93,"text":"那南投是非常友善尤其是南投許縣長也非常的來支持許多中央有需要配合的事項但是這個自來水普及率目前來講因為經費上面的一個短缺目前才變成是全國倒數第二的普及率"},{"start":1040.51,"end":1054.161,"text":"那是不是可以對於自來水補給率部長這邊能夠直接的來協助支持以及放寬自來水沿管評比標準還基準從60萬修正到100萬未來四年有200億的預算投入請部長來做說"},{"start":1055.382,"end":1074.457,"text":"委員提到的沒有錯我們最高是提到一百萬一般的到八十萬特殊的提高到一百萬那是不是可以針對南投在鳥賊團水庫對 南投因為它算是偏遠地區我們會盡量來協助本來就是要用在偏遠地區的好 那這個部分就麻煩後續好不好"},{"start":1075.407,"end":1089.2,"text":"因為最主要是鳥嘴潭我們也是全力的配合包括彰化縣的供水但是如果說在南投縣確實來講也沒有受到照顧的話那本席還是要這裡來表達好 我也請部長特別來加速這個事情好 謝謝 OK"},{"start":1091.102,"end":1115.953,"text":"最後的話就是在台灣的半導體目前來講不僅是對美的關稅或是包括302條款所以本來台灣的半導體產業都非常的辛苦包括它的許多的成本提高所以現在產業鏈是嚴重的動盪所以想要直接就教一下院長在半導體生態鏈蕭美琴蕭副總所指出的這個產業鏈生態系它到底是指哪些"},{"start":1118.305,"end":1132.859,"text":"報告委員整個半導體的生態系是從最前端的材料設備開始一直到製造端 封裝端到後來的下游的一些所以說穿了蕭副總統的所謂的生態系就是產業鏈"},{"start":1137.328,"end":1158.024,"text":"不只是產業鏈還包括他的客戶等等一些情況所以就是說台灣的生態體系也是跨國在台灣集結而成的所以就是說我們也希望就是這樣跨國集結的一個完整生態系也可以在其他部分力量延伸到其他的區域去因為"},{"start":1159.38,"end":1177.378,"text":"因為人家到我們這邊來建構我們一個完整的生態系包括美國的這些應用材料也好或是材料設備也好部長其實你講的本席都理解因為郭志輝前部長他有提到說這些相關的產業類尤其是先進製程是不會過去目前來講"},{"start":1178.519,"end":1194.219,"text":"最優先會在台灣沒有錯所以說先進製程跟相關技術最先進的所以說能夠依照經濟部產業券權條例第22條嚴格審查以及先進製程他不會外移到海外相關的一個公司或據點最先進的會留在台灣沒有錯"},{"start":1194.939,"end":1209.995,"text":"希望能夠達到跟流台灣的一個目的因為其實目前來講在許多的媒體跟目前在委員會的質詢大家確實還是一片的驚恐所以說在這個部分網路上我記得今天有提到德工宜山"},{"start":1210.856,"end":1227.071,"text":"那我相信如果說我們這個護國神山要守住才是正確的那我們要耕留台灣才能夠保住它在整個產業的一個根基我們會保住台灣的護國群山我早上說過山在台灣台灣就是山不會移走好 謝謝好 謝謝油漢委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":681,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（16時48分）謝謝院長，有請行政院院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：游委員好。"],["游委員顥：院長好。延續剛才上一位委員所提到的TikTok，就我個人目前來講，認為像現在假訊息充斥在網路上，尤其在去年的時候，印象中就假訊息委員會行政院有宣示要來成立，以打擊假訊息跟目前的網路亂象，想要直接就教院長，目前假訊息委員會的進度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是希望結合民間的組織，像現在我們這個事實查核的組織或是國際的NGO共同來處理，到目前為止，倒沒有很具體要成立所謂假訊息委員會，當然我們知道這個問題非常的嚴重，但是以現在現有的機制來做一些有效的處置。"],["游委員顥：好，那沒關係。想跟院長再次提醒，就是在去年的時候，你還沒就任以前，之前的院長其實也有在總質詢的時候宣示，希望假訊息委員會成立，我相信，部長其實也都有在NGO相關的一些團體做溝通。本席在這裡就直接明確地請教院長，這個假訊息委員會未來的規劃是會一樣持續朝著成立的方向來進行，還是說這個部分還是未定之天？"],["卓院長榮泰：在強化現有機制的情況底下，如果現有機制沒有辦法有效遏止的話，那朝向一個組織來形成是必要的。數發部已經有相當多，包括我們現在的新的法律都在手，我們可不可以做一樣強而有力的管制，數發部要不要說明一下？"],["游委員顥：簡單說明。"],["林部長宜敬：跟委員報告，就如同剛剛我們院長所說的，臺灣是一個自由民主法治的國家，在我們的國家裡面，訊息的真假不應該由政府來判斷，由政府來判斷的話，通常反而會造成更多的紛擾，所以我們看到世界各民主國家通常是透過NGO來判斷這個訊息的真假。當然我們知道說NGO在處理假訊息的時候，通常限於它的能量，它有作業速度，所以每個禮拜它能處理的訊息量有限，所以我們數發部現在的作法，就是想辦法來幫助這些NGO，當然NGO我們不能直接給它補助，但是我們想辦法幫它募款，舉例來講……"],["游委員顥：沒關係，部長，因為時間有限，那我也知道你是非常的專業，了解相關的進度。","本席延續這個部分要表示的是，第一，TikTok的部分來講，還是應該要治本，所以說TikTok的訊息不管怎麼樣，回歸到假訊息委員會，才是能夠根本來解決目前在社會網路社會充斥的各種錯誤訊息，所以我覺得標重要，本也重要。假訊息委員會的部分，我後續再跟部長在委員會持續討論沒關係，但是至少過去行政院有提到要成立假訊息委員會的這個進程，目前時間上來講確實有嚴重delay，我們後面來看如何來完善，那也謝謝部長。","接著我要就教院長，在目前來講，大家都很關心的就是光電板的部分，包括龔明鑫部長等一下可能也會回答到。不管在烏山頭水庫、農田水圳，許多用水的安全性，現在民眾是非常的擔憂。因為之前沒有制定標準，所以在水面光電板沒有環評的一個情況下，那時候是有提到說怕廠商不願投資，但是現在環境部，部長其實也說願意來進行這個環評審查，因為這個部分攸關整個太陽能政策相關的態度，所以本席要在這裡直接請教部長還有經濟部，是否支持環境部來進行環評審查？"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部應該是在所謂敏感的地區，還有山坡地，現在會不會可能包括滯洪池、水庫都來研議可能要新增環評的機制，那他進一步去研究。"],["游委員顥：所以院長是認為支持環境部要做環評審查嗎？我要問一下院長跟經濟部的態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，他往這個方向在做一些，是不是要增加這個部分，程序要怎麼處理，環境部正在做這個……"],["游委員顥：環境部是已經表達要環評，經濟部這邊是否會配合？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們會跟環境部來共同討論這樣的議題……"],["游委員顥：所以是支持進行審查？"],["龔部長明鑫：怎麼樣設計一個機制。"],["游委員顥：那院長……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為現在已經有一些環評的項目是要做的，比如說是在自然生態保育區、國家公園，或者是野生動物保育區、特農，這些都是要環評。如果不用環評，事實上現在也是要環社檢核，當然有一些環社檢核也許還不夠的情況之下，我們再跟環境部討論一下，看用什麼樣的形式可以守住這個環境。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員回答，就是發展多元的綠能，才是國家現在重要的能源政策，為了要達到這個國家政策，能夠讓它順利地來推動，當中有一些跟人民之間要增加信賴關係的部分，我們如何來取得？如果有助於這樣的機制產生，會有助於未來達到我們綠能要求、能源政策的話，我們當然朝這個方向來想。"],["游委員顥：好，沒問題，因為本席當然也是認為能源政策，但是同樣的，用水安全以及環評審查也要有共識和進度。","此外，延續今天有提到監察院寫的7項光電缺失，有關其中光電回饋金不夠透明的部分，本席要就教行政院和經濟部，這點要如何改善？還有，不透明的方面後續要如何做公開？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們也會重新考慮，至少讓雙方的回饋金有一個比較透明的類似公式也好，或是怎麼樣的一個機制、一個考量的因素在裡面，不會用喊價的方式。"],["游委員顥：要如何公開？會公開在哪裡？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會兩造……我們都會把我們的公式……會分成兩個階段，第一個階段，他們當然會彼此去溝通，如果可以有一個deal，我們當然尊重，如果不能夠deal，我們會介入，說我們的原則會是這樣、大家考量的原則會是這樣，有一個……"],["游委員顥：期程上大約多久會讓民眾看到改善的成果？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們儘快來提出。"],["游委員顥：因為這個部分會持續追蹤，所以我就不在這邊繼續追問。謝謝兩位部長。","接著要請教一下法務部長。網路上最近熱烈討論的就是閃兵的事情，包括他們被抓到以後也有刑責、很多都是直接認罪。我們在網路上也看到有律師說這些逃兵、閃兵，不管是不是藝人，都應該要去自首，以換取刑責的減輕。但是本席想要就教鄭部長和國防部顧部長，這些閃兵被抓到之後，有沒有可能因為他們犯案後態度良好，或是主動投案、自首而減刑？也就是自首要件的部分是否適用於逃兵？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為個案在新北地檢署偵辦中，當然，按照刑法的規定，自首得減輕其刑，但是案件會不會成立還要看證據來做處理，因為這裡面有涉及妨害兵役跟偽造文書的問題，第一批的偵辦對象都已經起訴了，而且檢察官也具體求刑，對於後來這些自首的，檢察官或者是法官會不會考慮到自首在法律上的優惠，我們尊重承辦法官和檢察官的職權認定。"],["游委員顥：好，目前有哪些管道可以讓他們來自首？又要如何鼓勵自首？要如何讓其他正常當兵的人不會感到不公平和相對的差異？當然，司法資源不應該浪費在處理逃兵，而是要用於詐欺、販毒和立即傷害的危險案件，在管道上和態度上，是不是請法務部部長再簡單說明一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡是跟具有偵查職權的公務員自首、自白他自己逃兵、閃兵的犯行，就可以達到自首的法律效果了。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，本席在這裡還是要呼籲，當兵是義務，任何的逃兵、閃兵本來就不應該。在任何管道上還是要呼籲和強化服兵役是義務的觀念，這部分請法務部部長和國防部部長能夠持續加強。謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["游委員顥：延續剛才衛環委員會召委廖偉翔委員所提到的外送員專法的部分，想請教院長和勞動部洪部長，尤其是院長，這個外送員專法其實很早之前就一直被討論了，過去本席在擔任議員期間也在南投縣議會提出過外送平臺的自治條例，目前有6個縣市都有。對於專法，目前院長是否要表態支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：先請洪部長說明。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實現在行政團隊已經透過跨部會的方式來做整合性的行政執行，包括交通部、勞動部等幾個相關部會，我們都在進行。當然，我們也做了幾輪的檢討，對於現在包括朝野黨團都有提出外送專法的倡議，也有一些相關的提案，我們勞動部是很願意用開放的態度來討論。"],["游委員顥：本席還是要在這邊請教一下院長，您是否支持外送員專法？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們現在有一個指引，交通部有訂一個指引，主管機關訂，勞動部對於外送員本身的權益，它必須要強化，如果現在把它強化之後，要變成一個專法，我們並沒有拒絕或排斥，但是必須要再成熟、完備它很多法制上的作業，目前我們跨部會正在進行這樣的工作，我知道大院裡面多位委員跟朝野黨團都有提出，我們願意現在趕快加速，也一方面有機會參酌委員的意見，把它弄成一個更完備的一個法制過程。"],["游委員顥：所以部長你對於外送員專法也是持保留態度嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我嗎？"],["游委員顥：當然是啊。"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有持保留態度啊，我是說我用開放的態度在面對這個專法。"],["游委員顥：會不會提出院版？"],["洪部長申翰：就像剛剛其實院長說的，因為這涉及到跨部會的一些權責，所以我們對於法制化的工作，其實這幾個月已經做相關的研擬，當然進到最後的階段，可是因為行政部門的版本通常是需要一定的法制作業。"],["游委員顥：部長，這個我都清楚，其實在西班牙也有騎士法，義大利有外送員保護條款，德國也有準勞工的概念，當然這跟交通部長也有相關，可是其實在過去，勞動部長何佩珊其實就已經表達他要提出勞動部送出的專法，院版的版本，何佩珊那時至今也已經過了一年多，其實勞動部裡面也早有資料，所以我是直接要就教，部內會不會提出院版來送？因為這個部分攸關的是行政院或行政部門的態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：我請陳部長來說明。"],["陳部長世凱：好，跟委員報告，這個部分其實我們行政院也有指定交通部作為治理機關，我們準備要出一個整合性的指引，不是只有針對勞動條件，因為跨的部會其實滿多的，我們需要一個整合性的指引，大概在10月底會提出我們整合性指引的草案。11月我們會把利害相關人各方面，包含消費者、包含外送員、包含業者、包含地方政府等等，大家會坐在一起討論這個指引。我們希望在12月底之前完成這個整套的指引。"],["游委員顥：好，因為這個必須要兼顧僱傭及承攬相關的這些條件，所以回頭來講，當然涉及到交通部相關，但是同樣的還是會是勞動部需要去負責。本席同樣在這裡也是要麻煩到時候有一個指引之後，還是要有一個院版會較為適宜，因為任何不管是國民黨團、民眾黨團，甚至民進黨，現在黨團也跟進要提出版本，任何的版本從立法院送的話，到時候都有一種可能，沒有院版又走向釋憲，到時候大家可能怕白忙一場。所以如果有院版，我覺得也表示不管是從過去何佩珊部長所提到的，要送一個專法的版本，到現在來講，我覺得對於法制的一個完整性以及對勞工的保障，應該是最好的一個方式，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的理解，你也聽到我們這幾個月努力的過程，但行政院的法制化，它的程序必須走得要比較多一點時間，部長已經提到了，12月底，在明年1月的時候，我們是認為可以有一個完整跟立法院來做討論的時間……"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。沒關係，勞動部長，OK，謝謝。","再來，我想既然交通部陳世凱部長在這邊，本席要接著直接請教一下，上次行政院長卓院長來水里的時候，有來看我們保甲林地，還有那時候整個治水防洪、治山防洪的部分，在地方上，那時候有跟院長提到水里的台16線19K到25K，需要做一個拓寬的工程，這個也跟部長提到過，在很早之前，其實院內跟部內都有相關資料。因為這一個經費需要納到省道改善計畫項下，因為它經費大約25億，從兩座隧道及五座橋梁，但是因為這個攸關到水里跟信義整個安全。那次院長來的時候，許縣長也有提出，我也有提出，院長有表達會積極來協助，本席想在這裡也直接來就教院長，是不是這一案還能夠有後續持續的省道改善計畫項的支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請交通部來答復。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，這個案子因為你們有提出，院長當時也有交代我們省改計畫的部分，我們現在正在審議，公路局正在審議這個案子，我們會儘量來協助這個案子。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝部長。那也拜託院長支持，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。部長，OK。","接著的話，就是在南投的部分，可能跟水利署還有自來水相關。有關南投的自來水普及率，許縣長在上次卓院長蒞臨鳥嘴潭水庫啟用典禮時，提到會予以協助，加強南投自來水的普及率。因為南投是偏鄉，而我們的鳥嘴潭水庫啟用之後，會協助彰化縣一半的供水，但是南投本身自來水普及的管線和經費，以目前來講，確實是嚴重不足。所以本席在這裡要拜託行政院長，南投非常友善，尤其南投的許縣長也非常支持許多中央有需要配合的事項，但是自來水普及率因為經費的短缺，目前普及率還是全國倒數第二名，針對自來水普及的問題，部長這邊是不是可以直接予以協助、支持，並且放寬自來水延管評比標準，將興建成本從60萬修正為100萬？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來四年會有200億的預算投入，請部長說明。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，剛剛委員提到的沒有錯，我們最高是提到100萬，一般是到80萬，特殊的提高到100萬。"],["游委員顥：是不是可以針對南投鳥嘴潭水庫……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為南投算是偏遠地區，所以我們會儘量來協助，這些經費本來就是要用在偏遠地區。"],["游委員顥：好，這個部分麻煩後續再予以協助，好不好？主要是鳥嘴潭水庫我們也是全力配合，包括彰化縣的供水，如果南投縣仍然無法受到照顧的話，本席還是要在這裡表達。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我會請部長特別加速進行這個事情。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝，OK。","最後是有關臺灣半導體的問題，目前來講，不僅是對美關稅，包括302條款，本來臺灣的半導體產業就非常辛苦，包括許多成本的提高，所以現在產業鏈是嚴重動盪，在此，本席直接就教院長，有關半導體生態鏈，蕭美琴蕭副總統所指出的產業鏈生態系，到底是指哪些？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，整個半導體的生態系是從最前端的材料、設備開始，一直到製造端、封裝端，到後來下游的一些包括AI部分，甚至於客戶……"],["游委員顥：說穿了，蕭副總統所謂的生態系，就是產業鏈嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：不只是產業鏈，還包括他的客戶等等的一些情況，也就是說，臺灣的生態體系是跨國在臺灣集結而成的，我們也希望這樣跨國集結的一個完整生態系，其力量可以延伸到其他區域去，因為人家到我們這邊來建構我們一個完整的生態系，包括美國的這些應用材料也好，或是材料設備也好，所以我們要互相協助。"],["游委員顥：部長，你講的本席都理解，之前郭智輝前部長有提到這些相關的產業鏈，尤其是先進製程是不會過去的，目前來講……"],["龔部長明鑫：先進製程最優先會在臺灣沒錯。"],["游委員顥：對，所以先進製程跟相關技術……"],["龔部長明鑫：最先進的，對，最先進的。"],["游委員顥：能夠依據經濟部產業創新條例第二十二條嚴格審查，以及先進製程不會外移到海外相關的公司或據點？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，最先進的會留在臺灣，沒有錯。"],["游委員顥：好，希望能夠達到根留臺灣的目的，因為目前來講，許多媒體和委員會的質詢，大家確實還是一片驚恐，在這個部分，我記得今天網路上有提到「德公移山」，相信我們這個護國神山要守住才是正確的，我們要根留臺灣才能夠保住整個產業的根基。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會保住臺灣的護國群山，我早上說過，山在臺灣，臺灣就是山，不會移走。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，再一次謝謝卓院長、鄭副院長、各位閣員、各位首長列席答詢，也要謝謝范雲委員、林月琴委員和林沛祥委員陪同我們一起參與施政總質詢。","現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政報告之質詢。現在散會。","散會（17時9分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164480","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164480","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993fd77a6e1046f10e3bed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d222361ff6ef9879315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"16:32:07 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卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢議員好院長辛苦了今天整天質詢"},{"start":32.284,"end":54.764,"text":"那今天希望能夠跟你討論司法少年處遇的問題那司法處遇少年事實上是牽扯到的會事實上是整個的事實上也就是社安網那我一直再三強調社安網不是社工的社安網需要的事實上是跨單位的一個緊密的合作才能夠串聯所有的服務"},{"start":56.005,"end":69.83,"text":"那可是在這個要串聯緊密的跨部會的話事實上就要我們明確的那個所謂的事權分工可是看到事權分工呢我們就要來問的是說因為事案碗的一個分工"},{"start":71.771,"end":99.611,"text":"我上個會期就質詢過說未婦也看到這樣子的一個問題說那我們就來跨部會開一個會針對於一組折多協力原則提出討論看起來很好也就是說今天依法組折如果有法的話誰就是那個單位組折那如果法沒有的話就是政策如果政策歸屬在誰就誰身上那在沒有的話就是依對象比如說這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的"},{"start":100.622,"end":121.362,"text":"實在都沒有的話就是共同寫商看起來這種分工原則聽起來很有道理可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題這些問題恐怕就是要院長才能有辦法來做協調我們今天就提出三個問題首先我想談的是男子兒少跟安置機構困境的問題"},{"start":122.243,"end":147.965,"text":"為什麼要談這個題目呢因為今年邵氏法的院版的草案已經送到立院來那我留意到說邵氏法已經有徵訂轉換安置機構處分的條文我認為這樣子的一個調整力非常良善而且也非常符合二選公約所談的多元化的一個處遇和最佳符合孩子的最佳利益不過問題來了"},{"start":150.207,"end":168.371,"text":"什麼樣的問題呢我想看這張簡報應該也知道也就是說今天我們的政府部門看到的是今天如果事實上在講床位的時候我們就看到是似乎我們整個的"},{"start":172.131,"end":193.877,"text":"司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導幾乎都是轉感化教育所以十年來銳減的事實上是九成為什麼會有這樣的狀況自己司法院的邵家廷也講說因為就是沒有安置機構最後就只能是去做感化教育可是"},{"start":196.601,"end":224.1,"text":"整個來看的話我們看到的是什麼呢因為機構的資源有限那少年照顧的難度事實上非常高過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多可是他要安置那司法少年事實上在安置的時候他的問題也非常的多可是民間機構講說他如果來承接的話他的人力事實上是一個問題有沒有專業人力人力能不能符合我們的所謂的人數跟少年的比例還有一個就是經費"},{"start":225.841,"end":248.414,"text":"民間團體孤大概他一個孩子安置的話要五萬到八萬可是我們政府大概給兩萬三的這樣子一個安置費用所以為什麼大家不願意承接我們台灣113年的安置機構總共有110家可是目前只有15家有補助而且這15家裡面有40%他是只有做男子兒兒少的話只做40%"},{"start":250.222,"end":259.786,"text":"可是只有兩家願意承接我們司法的安置少年所以難怪司法院在安置的時候他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去所以我想問說部長和院長你們覺得"},{"start":263.913,"end":282.927,"text":"現在為什麼機構不願意做那到底可以有什麼樣的解放跟委員說明確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來等於都是混收所以對這一類的司法少年確實對安置機構來講他的照顧上是比較複雜"},{"start":284.068,"end":311.035,"text":"那我們現在給的這個安置機構大概分成安置費 專業服務費那我按照那個等級也有區分啦也有分成三級在給部長 男子兒安置有時候要到1比1可是實際上你人力補助的話根本就沒辦法對對對 所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是來調整那個費用特別是我們對那個"},{"start":312.616,"end":326.612,"text":"機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來然後再把這個專業服務費看看能不能夠來調整所以部長可不可以先考量到因為110家只有15家願意做而且司法案子也只有兩家男子兒的話只有15家"},{"start":327.172,"end":341.928,"text":"那表示什麼民間他的經營的痛點政府可能難以去理解然後我認為應該要有個示範或研究計畫來釐清到底為什麼原因到底出在哪邊是人力還是經費還是他後端因為我過去在民間的時候常常處理是"},{"start":342.669,"end":359.69,"text":"教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到指引說學校就是在安置機構旁邊搞不好要更遠的地方他才能就讀這都會造成安置機構的人力的一個成本可不可以先做這樣子的一個研究之後來了解到問題的時候才能夠去解決問題那再來就要問部長說"},{"start":361.954,"end":372.25,"text":"我們這個事辦計畫我們可以來支持那也想問部長跟院長你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責"},{"start":373.84,"end":391.752,"text":"是衛福部呢還是地方政府還是司法院為什麼我這樣子問老實說目前的法定權責交織就是看似各部會都有一個工作那可是都有管理責任呢可是如果少年出現到一些問題的時候沒有一個單位可以來做解決"},{"start":392.692,"end":418.91,"text":"為什麼這樣講司法院說衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任衛福部又說那司法安置主責應該是法院跟保護官那機構實質上一樣管理是屬於地方雙方講的都沒有錯可是地方政府事實上是關鍵可是問題來了地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者一方面他要拜託"},{"start":420.231,"end":446.509,"text":"安置機構來提供服務可是一方面他要透過管理手段去管理他所以就會有求援兼裁判的問題所以中央固然有政策方向跟原則可是在地方自治底下實際落地又會因為承接的對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一所以就會保持出現不同的委託的委辦的一個合作模式所以就想要來談一下"},{"start":448.24,"end":462.576,"text":"可以看到監察院在111年他已經提出來也就是說司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理的一個模式這就是地方在執行的時候不一的那個狀況會造成"},{"start":463.857,"end":482.169,"text":"孩子的權益受到損害那去年呢去年我們我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待放任機構這樣子做那今年呢"},{"start":482.785,"end":503.104,"text":"結果吹哨者竟然被懲罰所以表示114年現在問題都還是存在著同樣是放任機構不當對待而且對於這揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制好像大家都希望不要有人揭發暗示機構的一些倉巴一樣可是誰提誰倒楣"},{"start":504.125,"end":521.099,"text":"怎麼會是今天加害人他的一個罰款比較低然後吹哨者反而事實上是用最高那誰以後敢去接這種長巴當然我覺得那是地方對可是中央我想也不能夠拿掉這個責任就像當初"},{"start":521.559,"end":538.13,"text":"院長也是花蓮一旦發生事情的時候馬上我們就去救災了所以那這事實上是孩子的權益怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候這個花蓮縣政府竟然沒有來做處理坐任這樣的事情發生"},{"start":538.81,"end":561.319,"text":"所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來做協助協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理並且要提出一些資源因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題那不知道院長這邊因為這個是監察院提出報告的內容是"},{"start":561.926,"end":581.997,"text":"第二個事實上是我的因為我們已經是揭發的倒不是監察院所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有因為現在我手頭上又還有一個另外一個安置機構也是同樣在花蓮縣也是有這樣的問題那我就會不會去進行了解一下到底長期管理適當的問題現在有沒有一個"},{"start":583.308,"end":611.952,"text":"面對問題的改善計畫或是我們要做什麼的協助那這個除了衛福部之外對小朋友對兒童教育啦各種方面都要把它納進來一併討論好 謝謝石部長確實這個過去我們大概都是訂政策 訂原則那麼給計畫的一些補助地方是在落實執行不過在這個剛剛特別提到有關於接避者的保護"},{"start":613.192,"end":634.117,"text":"是 麻煩石部長因為為什麼 接避者我們還是要保護他那謝謝部長那接下來我們是主席麻煩我們的兩個正部長就法務部跟教育部 謝謝麻煩請法務部長 教育部長那想先問院長就是掃腳條例目前進度是什麼請部長來說明一下"},{"start":635.034,"end":661.86,"text":"因為距離上次公告已經大概三年了我知道今年五月已經送院審核了所以是不是這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度因為我們很關心尤其為什麼這麼關心呢因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為儲育為核心那教育的一個能量就是沒有辦法進來為什麼會這樣子提呢我們看到這個就知道說"},{"start":663.1,"end":679.214,"text":"在重大案件裡邊會看到的是什麼也就是我們的重大通報的案件近三年的矯正的重大案件通報包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象而且三年增加了"},{"start":680.235,"end":708.293,"text":"1.6倍整體的通報量也成長了85%所以我說剛剛講說沒有與教育為處於核心的話就會發生這種狀況所以我們當然有希望說那是不是應該要來做一個如果能夠掃腳條例趕快出來的話那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點而且生對生的衝突在今年5月我們的少年矯正學校的霸凌防治跟處理具體措施正式上路之後"},{"start":708.84,"end":725.592,"text":"這些重大的一個通報的事件的後續處理我們也希望能夠把霸凌的一個議題涵蓋在其中才能夠真正的去解決問題所以想問兩個部長在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同的合作在角質體系的時候"},{"start":726.212,"end":740.42,"text":"跟委員先報告那個少小條例那部分那個修法的草案那個今天要落實就是以教育為核心那這個草案的部分修正條文已經送行在那時候的審查那也在今天10月2號有給我們"},{"start":741.56,"end":756.622,"text":"我們站得趕緊的業力那剛委員關心的就是那個我們兩個部會我們是合作無間因為像我們少角學校那個課綱也都是按照教育部的那個課綱來做的那另外委員關心的那個姓平的"},{"start":758.244,"end":785.358,"text":"對 他成長了1.6倍這個霸凌跟性平這部分那個霸凌的那部分我們有一個法部有一個少年矯正學校霸凌防治及處理的具體措施那這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的一個機制那這部分我們跟教育部司有充分的一個合作不過部長我比較希望是從預防的角度上來看不是通報所以你的教育"},{"start":786.398,"end":804.545,"text":"還有就失智的知能跟敏感度希望能夠再度的成長而不是等到後端才來做處理還有身對身這一塊也想問兩個部長說因為幾乎身對身的衝突那後續輔導機制到底你們怎麼做"},{"start":805.885,"end":832.041,"text":"也跟我們補充報告有關這個性平的這些這個少年小四學校的這些所有的老師所有的這些有關性平或者這個霸凌我想我們這一個都有定期在辦這個老師的一個徵人這一個部分我們是兩個部會是合作無間的另外我們還有一個這個少年這個矯正教育指導委員會那麼"},{"start":833.762,"end":857.382,"text":"從過去來講是由教育部基本上因為考量到這個少年教室學校的輔導老師他這個流動性太高所以經過這個委員會法務部也同意從明年開始他們會專任的輔導老師也由法務部來臨聘我想整個從學校的一些"},{"start":858.422,"end":886.37,"text":"輔導課程到性平霸凌等等包括預防性的這些輔導我們跟華為部是合作無缺我非常肯定在特殊教育就是矯正學校在輔導廚藝上的一個努力不管事實上是輔導空間跟輔導專輔的人力的緣額還有最近還引進了適應體育的引入不過還是要特別提醒將近有10%具有特見的一個正名的孩子事實上是在我們的少角學校裡面"},{"start":886.869,"end":892.311,"text":"還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊請你們還是要特別去注意"},{"start":893.109,"end":922.49,"text":"最後當然就是期待院長這邊針對於我覺得安置機構這個困境應該要去正視這個問題第二個是不是檢討中央跟地方在針對委辦安置機構的管理模式還有第三個教育部跟法務部應該積極的一個合作當然我們更期待是少小的條例能夠趕快送進來最後就是一個小問題就是也是一個重大的問題一樣也是部會的因為我們的演算法危害非常的大"},{"start":922.87,"end":932.857,"text":"不管是監察院八月提出來報告也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極的怠惰要求我們改善對T-talk的社群的安全管理那是用什麼 政府的"},{"start":967.012,"end":968.174,"text":"好谢谢林月琴委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（16時32分）主席，麻煩我們的韓院長跟衛福部的石部長。"],["主席：韓院長在這裡。"],["林委員月琴：說錯了，不好意思，是卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：今天整天質詢，院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["林委員月琴：今天希望能夠跟您討論司法少年處遇的問題。司法處遇少年牽扯到的事實上是整個社安網，我一直再三強調，社安網不是社工的社安網，需要的是跨單位的緊密合作才能夠串聯所有的服務，可是跨部會要能夠緊密串聯的話，事實上就要有明確的事權分工。看到事權分工，我們要問的是，因為社安網的分工我上個會期就質詢過，衛福部也看到這樣的問題，說那我們就跨部會來開一個會，針對於一主責多協力原則提出討論。看起來很好，也就是今天依法主責，如果有法的話，就由法的主管單位主責；如果法沒有的話就是政策，如果政策歸屬在誰，責任就在誰身上；再沒有的話，就是依對象，比如這個服務對象事實上是主要的或迫切的；實在都沒有的話，就是共同協商。看起來這種分工原則，聽起來很有道理，可是實際上執行起來卻有非常多的問題，而這些問題恐怕就是要院長才有辦法來做協調，我們今天就提出三個問題。","首先我想談的是難置兒少跟安置機構困境的問題，為什麼要談這個題目呢？因為今年少事法的院版草案已經送到立法院來，我留意到少事法已經有增訂轉換安置機構處分的條文，我認為這樣的調整立意非常良善，而且也非常符合兒權公約所談的多元化的處遇和符合孩子的最佳利益。不過，問題來了，什麼樣的問題呢？我想看了這張簡報應該也知道，今天政府部門看到的是，今天如果事實上在講床位的時候，我們就看到似乎整個的司法安置結果幾乎都沒有所謂的安置輔導，幾乎都是轉感化教育，所以十年來銳減了9成。","為什麼會有這樣的狀況？司法院少家廳也說，因為就是沒有安置機構，最後就只能去做感化教育。可是整個來看的話，我們看到的是什麼呢？因為機構的資源有限，少年照顧的難度事實上非常高，過去特殊需求的孩子越來越多，可是他要安置，那司法少年在安置的時候，他的問題也非常的多，可是民間機構說，如果它來承接的話，它的人力事實上是一個問題，有沒有專業人力？人力能不能符合我們所謂的人數跟少年的比例？還有一個就是經費。民間團體估計安置一個孩子大概要5萬到8萬元，可是我們政府大概是給2萬3,000元的安置費用，這也是為什麼大家不願意來承接的原因。","臺灣113年的安置機構總共有110家，可是目前只有15家有補助，而且這15家裡面，難置兒少的部分只做40%，只有兩家願意承接我們的司法的安置少年，所以難怪司法院在安置的時候，他根本沒有辦法到安置機構去。所以我想問部長和院長，你們覺得現在為什麼機構不願意做？到底可以有什麼樣的解方？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，確實我們現在在安置機構上沒有特別去區隔起來，等於都是混收，所以對這一類的司法少年，確實對安置機構來講，他的照顧上是比較複雜。我們現在給安置機構的大概分成安置費、專業服務費，按照那個等級也有所區分，也有分成三級在給。"],["林委員月琴：部長，難置兒安置有時候要到1比1，可是實際上人力不足的話，根本就沒辦法。"],["石部長崇良：對、對、對，所以一方面我們來研究看看是不是調整那個費用，特別是對於機構營運我們會多一筆費用出來，然後再就專業服務費的部分，看看能不能夠來做調整。"],["林委員月琴：部長，可不可以先考量到，因為110家只有15家願意做，而且司法安置也只有兩家，難置兒的話則只有15家，表示民間經營的痛點，政府可能難以去理解，我認為應該要有個試辦或研究計畫來釐清原因到底出在哪邊，是人力還是經費，還是後端呢？因為我過去在民間常常處理到，在教育體系裡面也沒有辦法去做到支應，即學校就是在安置機構旁邊，搞不好他要到更遠的地方才能就讀，這都會造成安置機構人力上的一個成本，可不可以先做這樣一個研究之後？了解到問題的時候，才能夠去解決問題。"],["石部長崇良：委員，這個試辦計畫我們可以來支持。"],["林委員月琴：好。再來也想問部長跟院長，你們認為司法安置兒少到底屬於哪個單位要主責？是衛福部呢？還是地方政府？還是司法院？為什麼我會這樣子問？老實說，目前的法定權責交織，就是看似各部會都有一個工作，都有管理責任，可是如果少年出現一些問題的時候，沒有一個單位可以來做解決，為什麼這樣講？司法院說，衛福部是安置機構的中央主管機關，可是實際上設立跟營運的都是地方的責任；衛福部又說，司法安置的主責應該是法院跟保護官，機構實質上一樣的，管理是屬於地方的責任。雙方講的都沒有錯，可是地方政府事實上是關鍵，但問題來了，地方政府身兼服務委託跟管理者，一方面他要拜託安置機構來提供服務，可是一方面也要透過管理手段去管理他，所以就會有球員兼裁判的問題。中央固然有政策方向跟原則，可是在地方自治底下，若實際落地，又會因為承接的……對於安置機構的想像跟標準不一，所以就會導致出現不同的委託的、委辦的合作模式。","在此想要來談一下，我們可以看到監察院在111年已經提出來，也就是說，司法安置缺乏健全的委託跟管理模式，這就是地方在執行時不一的狀況會造成孩子的權益受到損害。去年我也揭發了花蓮長期以來坐任安置機構十幾年來對孩子的虐待，就是放任機構這樣子做，結果今年吹哨者竟然被懲罰。表示114年現在問題都還是存在著，同樣是放任機構不當對待，而且對於揭發的吹哨者反而沒有一些保護機制，好像大家都希望不要有人揭發安置機構的一些瘡疤一樣，可是誰提誰倒楣！今天怎麼會是加害人的罰鍰比較低，然後吹哨者反而是用最高的處罰？那誰以後敢去揭這種瘡疤？當然我們會覺得那是地方，對！可是我想中央也不能夠拿掉這個責任，就像當初院長也是在花蓮一旦發生事情的時候，馬上就去救災了，所以這事實上是孩子的權益，怎麼是坐任地方這樣子長期對孩子不當對待的時候，花蓮縣政府竟然沒有處理，就坐任這樣的事情發生！","所以我想這部分是不是可以請院長來協助，協調我們的司法院跟衛福部就此議題的想法來強化地方的管理，並且要提出一些資源，因為照顧成本始終是安置機構一個很大的問題，不知道院長這邊……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是監察院提出的報告內容，是嗎？"],["林委員月琴：第二個事實上是我的，因為我們已經是揭發的，倒不是監察院。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這不是監察院揭發的內容。"],["林委員月琴：對，他也已經提出來。所以我覺得花蓮縣這邊是不是應該也要有？因為現在我手頭上又還有另外一個安置機構，也是同樣在花蓮縣，也是有這樣的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：那就請衛福部去進行了解一下，到底長期管理失當的問題現在有沒有一個面對問題的改善計畫？或是我們要做什麼樣的協助？我想這個除了衛福部之外，對小朋友、對兒童的教育等各種方面，都要把它納進來，我們一併討論。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。石部長。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，確實過去我們大概都是訂政策、訂原則，還有給計畫的一些補助，地方是在落實執行，不過剛剛特別提到有關於揭弊者的保護，那麼當然……"],["林委員月琴：是，麻煩石部長，因為揭弊者我們還是要保護他。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長。","接下來，主席，麻煩兩個鄭部長，就是法務部跟教育部。謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩請法務部長、教育部長備詢。"],["林委員月琴：想先問院長，少矯校條例目前進度是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長來說明一下。"],["林委員月琴：因為距離上次公告已經大概3年了，我知道今年5月已經送院審核，所以這個事情也要麻煩院長是不是可以加快速度？因為我們很關心，為什麼這麼關心呢？因為舊版的事實上是沒有以教育為處遇核心，教育的能量就是沒有辦法進來，為什麼會這樣子提呢？我們看到這個就知道，在重大案件裡會看到的是什麼？也就是有關我們的重大通報案件，近3年的矯正重大案件通報，包含性平事件跟其他衝突都呈現惡化的現象，而且3年增加了1.6倍，整體通報量也成長了85%。所以我剛才說沒有以教育為處遇核心的話，就會發生這種狀況，因此我們當然希望如果少矯校條例能夠趕快出來的話，那才有辦法去解決這樣子的一個問題點。而且生對生的衝突在今年5月，我們的少年矯正學校霸凌防制及處理具體措施正式上路之後，這些重大通報事件的後續處理，我們也希望能夠把霸凌這個議題涵蓋在其中，才能夠真正去解決問題。","所以想問兩個部長，在霸凌跟性平的處置上是不是有共同合作？在矯治體系的時候。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員先報告，有關少矯校條例那部分的修法草案，要落實就是以教育為核心，部分條文修正草案已經送行政院，行政院的審查也在今年10月2號有給我們，我們再趕緊來研議。剛才委員關心的就是我們兩個部會……"],["林委員月琴：對，兩個部會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不是合作無間？因為像我們少矯學校的課綱也都是按照教育部的課綱來做的。另外委員關心的性平霸凌……"],["林委員月琴：對，它成長了1.6倍。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關霸凌跟性平這部分，在霸凌那部分，法務部有少年矯正學校霸凌防制及處理具體措施，這部分我們有建立一個防止霸凌的機制，也跟教育部有充分的合作。"],["林委員月琴：不過，部長，我比較希望是從預防角度上來看，不是通報，所以你的教育還有師資的知能跟敏感度，希望能夠再度地成長，而不是等到後端才來處理。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，這部分我們……"],["林委員月琴：還有生對生這一塊，也想問兩位部長，生對生的衝突，後續輔導機制你們到底怎麼做？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，那個……"],["鄭部長英耀：也跟委員補充報告，有關少年矯正學校的所有老師有關性平或者關於霸凌部分，我們都有定期在辦理老師的徵人，這一個部分我們兩個部會是合作無間的。另外，我們還有一個少年矯正教育指導委員會，從過去來講是由教育部……基本上因為考量到少年矯正學校的輔導老師流動性太高，所以經過這個委員會，而且法務部同意，從明年開始專任的輔導老師也由法務部來遴聘。我想整個從學校的一些輔導課程到性平、霸凌等等，包括預防性的這些輔導，我們跟法務部是合作無間。"],["林委員月琴：是，我非常肯定在特殊教育，就是矯正學校在輔導處遇上的努力，不管是輔導空間跟專輔人力的員額，還有最近引入了適應體育。不過還是要特別提醒，將近有10%具有特鑑證明的孩子是在少矯學校裡面，還有8%的學習跟情緒困擾的孩子在那邊，請你們還是要特別去注意。","當然就是期待院長這邊，針對於安置機構的困境，應該要去正視這個問題；第二個，是不是檢討中央跟地方針對委辦安置機構的管理模式；還有第三個，教育部跟法務部應該積極的合作，當然我們更期待是少矯條例能夠趕快送進來。","最後就是一個小問題，也是一個重大的問題，一樣也是部會的，因為演算法的危害非常大，不管是監察院8月提出來報告，也是批評政府對兒少保護的消極怠惰，要求我們改善對TikTok社群的安全管理，當然也國外也是有，所以最後就問院長，這個到底應該是哪一個部會的工作？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛安置的部分，我會請法務部、教育部跟衛福部都進來整合。"],["林委員月琴：那TikTok？"],["卓院長榮泰：希望有政委，我想時中政委跟明昕政委能夠來共同來協助。"],["林委員月琴：那院長就TikTok這一塊要做一些處理的話……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分，數發部要強力的來要求，如果對於學生的傷害這麼大，我們的作為應該比現在更強。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員質詢、謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","接下來，本日最後一位質詢的委員，現在請游顥委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","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時間暫停故宮博物院院長要不要備詢麻煩請故宮博物院院長備詢"},{"start":201.535,"end":227.154,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個事情我們得到訊息以後我們就責成我們由副院長召集會議然後模擬可能發生的狀況然後加強整個防護的設備基本上來講的話故宮它的三層設備的話我們一直都是非常正常的運作那包括故宮我們還有一個比較特殊的就是國內博物館沒有我們有警犬隊"},{"start":228.274,"end":230.96,"text":"院長我想要跟你們報告院長院長次長"},{"start":233.558,"end":260.995,"text":"這個羅浮宮在遭竊以前據說也有很多人跟他說可能會有問題他們也是相當有自信覺得說這個是全世界最好的博物館他們的保全最佳的最好所以本席要講的事情是看到這個事要迅速的反應之外院長是不是也應該要想辦法去了解羅浮宮到底出了什麼狀況先看別人發生了什麼這個漏洞然後也同時檢視我們有沒有漏洞跟要去演習"},{"start":262.015,"end":273.704,"text":"這個部分可以嗎因為料敵從寬料敵從嚴這個意思是我們在整個任何事件這樣處理那委員今天的提醒會讓我們再去做全面性的檢討跟強化請院長還有我們故宮的院長"},{"start":276.966,"end":296.461,"text":"要責成相關單位包含你說警力或者軍方或是相關的可能要牽扯到的相關單位然後重新檢視自己的所謂這個安全層級夠不夠甚至內部的保全人員保全人員量能夠不夠還有哪裡科技有死角以及科技有沒有需要精進的地方"},{"start":297.034,"end":321.998,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們跟那個館區的轄區然後包括檢調單位我們都是保持密切的聯繫只要任何有風吹草動街道情緒的話我們馬上會啟動緊急應變的一個措施還是要儘速檢討羅浮宮的事情才剛發生要全面儘速檢討因為任何一件館藏任何一件文物遺失我想都不是任何人想看到而且大家也都承擔不起"},{"start":322.458,"end":348.891,"text":"而且我們在針對五大威脅的國安實際上措施當中對於關鍵基礎設施早就已經在做這樣的工作了我們除了法制措施方案 計畫都會把它完成好 院長 針對羅浮宮事件就先這樣請盡速的這個責成相關單位那是不是一個月內的時間可以給本席辦公室一個相關的檢討報告沒有問題 沒有問題好 謝謝 更快都沒有問題應該更快 謝謝 謝謝院長好 那下一題請李洋理部長"},{"start":353.82,"end":366.355,"text":"案情運動部長被選好 院長部長 原來部長還在走路因為時間有限的關係這個"},{"start":371.687,"end":394.397,"text":"部長好部長身為第一任的運動部長又是金牌的運動員出身這個本席是相當的敬佩也是你的粉絲但是我相信你一定關心各類的新興運動的發展那我今天就是很快的一個訴求想要替一個結合科技教育跟運動的新興項目爭取是不是納入我們運動部的管轄"},{"start":395.237,"end":423.164,"text":"因為現在運動部針對無動力飛行納入管理項目代表政府早已經承認飛行運動的安全性跟競技價值可是有相關的競技內容相似的競技活動像是競技無人機還有無人足球等等這種動力飛行其實它在國際上面就已經是正式的體育項目可是在台灣目前是沒有主管沒有制度沒有方向所以想要問一下部長這部分是不是可以競速納入這是第一個問題"},{"start":424.521,"end":439.126,"text":"跟委員報告那過往其實在電競、圍棋其實它也都不是我們所泛之的運動那其實在亞運現在也都有了那其實我們運動部的成立也當然會廣納運動的多元性那當然我們會跟進國際的趨勢"},{"start":441.187,"end":468.966,"text":"對 因為想要跟部長報告的是可能要儘速演繹喔因為我相信這其實是一個結合AI 結合航太科技結合工程教育 結合運動競技的一項競技活動所以三個具體的訴求喔是希望說第一個運動部可不可以這個儘速修訂運動項目分類增列動力飛行項目因為這個國際航空聯盟FAI已經有相關的潛力喔可以有可循的地方喔"},{"start":469.326,"end":490.395,"text":"第二個是不是請部長支持設立科技運動的相關的類別讓AI的這種體感運動VR運動機器人格鬥都有制度可以隸屬那第三個也要請運動部跟教育部是不是可以合作去研議啟動全國中小學的競技無人機示範賽他也可以跟這個STEM的教育"},{"start":491.335,"end":505.408,"text":"結合計畫可以讓學生從學習到比賽從實作到創新我想這是我主要的三個訴求因為這個台灣也是少數擁有完整的無人機產業鏈的國家包含晶片馬達碳纖維機的這些自製"},{"start":506.169,"end":533.351,"text":"那如果可以把這個東西帶進去的話它可能也可以是一個新的國家品牌所以這部分邀請我們李部長是不是回去可以研議這個方向報告 跟委員報告我們待會去研議的好 謝謝部長那拜託再也把這個研議的結果看一個月內是不是給本席辦公室可能因為這比較新興那是不是可以多一點時間可以 那部長你覺得多久的時間看是不是可以三個月好 沒問題謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":539.633,"end":551.821,"text":"好再來院長這個是我第三個part這個訴求也很重要這也是現在想要先問問院長一下你有沒有點過外送當然有有當然有對不對那你有在下雨天點過嗎"},{"start":553.947,"end":578.02,"text":"太大的雨會不會有點但太熱的時候也會在小雨的時候點小雨的時候也會有對不對好 院長其實這個外送產業其實已經深入我們的生活其實在所謂粉色系的廠商它在2012登台以來其實在台灣這個產業已經超過12年了2012年到現在已經超過12年了疫情後更是爆發性的成長所以從業人員從5萬變成15萬"},{"start":581.982,"end":602.815,"text":"報徵的三倍而且這群人裡面可能還有將近一句研究報告有四成到六成可能是完全全職依賴外送這個產業但這群人的權益其實是在法律的灰色地帶那我另外想問一下院長或者部長你們知道單筆的外送費是多少錢嗎單筆的外送費知不知道"},{"start":604.059,"end":631.428,"text":"你說的是保底的價格對單筆的第一筆是45最新的是45但是其實他大家都不知道因為他有他的演算法會改變所以曾經也發生過他單筆第二筆連續的訂單第二筆降的非常的低這是在今年7月發生的事情對所以我要告訴你們就是說這個問題就是平常講我剛問你你說45塊但我要說的是其實大家都不知道為什麼因為演算法沒有那麼透明"},{"start":632.228,"end":655.053,"text":"演算法沒有那麼透明勞動部有來報告過這個演算法我們也在檢討說如何讓保障這個外送員的權益所以他們面臨的困境就是包含著這個外送費過低啦然後演算法不透明沒有相關的職業保險的完整性不夠也沒有合理的申訴管道更重要的是外送員跟平台的關係到底是什麼究竟是僱傭呢還是承攬呢"},{"start":656.853,"end":672.52,"text":"還是說因為新興的這個經濟模式他有新的關係這個其實都還沒有定那再來就是我們是不是應該參考歐美的模式比如說歐洲的模式走出新的一條道路所以這個我們要盡速的來討論修法的方向"},{"start":673.3,"end":695.452,"text":"不然現在的結果就是怎麼樣每一天有32個交通事故他們可能面臨每一天32個以上的交通事故沒有完整的保障那他的這個惡劣的環境呢其實他們也非常的辛苦喔在這個情況之下還可能演算法不透明也因此被演算法霸凌都有可能所以我們希望有相關的立法方向第一個 明定最低的外送費的保障"},{"start":696.112,"end":725.07,"text":"第二個是要有一個公開透明的演算法的這個演算法的機制以及制度化的申訴機制因為他們如果突然被停工他也就是突然就不能工作了那第四個是加強相關的職業保險第五個我們當然也希望讓這個產業可以長長久久所以我們希望平衡平台外送員商家跟消費者之間的權利義務所以院長這幾個方向請問您是不是支持謝謝委員提出幾個重點我也知道"},{"start":725.71,"end":738.046,"text":"現在大院裡面也正在討論這個事情那其實行政院從過去一段時間就一直在注意整個外送員的基本的權利所以我們也請交通部跟勞動部就"},{"start":742.679,"end":762.206,"text":"因為我這個難得可以直接質詢到你我相信很多細節未來我們可以在各個委員會跟兩位部長討論可是本席只是要一個態度啦要院長一個態度啦因為其實已經拖很久大家都是中央以前在修法的過程中中央就是各個單位不想當主責機關可是我要跟院長報告今天早上本席開了記者會"},{"start":763.266,"end":787.771,"text":"那今天早上民進黨團也開了記者會也表明支持所以難得立法院這個藍綠白大家都支持雖然現在還沒有民進黨團的版本可是已經有多位國民黨的委員版本以及民眾黨的版本那現在民進黨有版本的還沒送進來所以代表三方都同意了雖然說過去完全執政應該可以匆匆容容就可以立法"},{"start":788.231,"end":808.505,"text":"但是現在匆匆忙忙的補上來沒關係大家一起努力所以希望本席這裡希望說院長也可以好好支持然後很多細節我們未來可以討論但是想要先看院長的態度是否支持這樣的修法我們現在有一個指引就是整個行為有一個勞動部有一個指引那這個指引的內容我們如果要證明它法制化的話"},{"start":809.568,"end":834.969,"text":"他必須要充充分分的而且要方方面面都要達到當然 我們當然也希望 勞動部正在做這樣的努力工作我們希望好好討論因為之前的指引其實有很多市政府有地方的自治法規可是他遇到問題就是因為沒有上位的法沒有母法甚至到憲法的制度之後他可能在法院打官司講不清楚所以這就是為什麼現在我們要趕緊立法所以希望說我們大家可以一起來努力來增進產業好不好 謝謝"},{"start":836.53,"end":859.286,"text":"跟委員報告其實對於外送員跟相關權益的法制化其實這幾個月我們一直在研議那剛剛委員在講的幾個問題我們也都覺得是可以有把它法制化的空間所以我們也對於立法法制化這件事情持更開放的態度我們也很願意接下來在立法院跟朝野的委員一起來做討論好好討論跟審議因為這是可以朝野一起合作"},{"start":859.686,"end":885.448,"text":"謝謝部長也謝謝院長這個很正面的態度所以我們一起來努力我們希望盡速推動這個修法然後完善平台以及完善這個尤其是外送從業人員的權益那還有各方面的利益的平衡這個是我們大家共同的努力好謝謝 謝謝兩位部長請回好 謝謝兩位部長請回再來院長想要請問一下落實居住正義是政府最重要的政策之一這句話是誰說的"},{"start":888.303,"end":905.619,"text":"歷屆的總統都說過這樣的話很好所以這是完全的自據這是2023年的時候選總統的賴清德總統講的那院長我也想請教一下您對於賴總統對於居住正義承諾有哪些您懂不懂我們有百萬租屋計畫是"},{"start":907.216,"end":922.884,"text":"好 除了百萬租屋計畫之外其實還有包括你沒有講嘛推動囤房稅2.0嘛 對不對然後2023年要累積新辦25萬戶的社會住宅對不對這直接新辦喔還有25萬戶包租貸款50萬戶租金補貼嘛好所以所以顯而易見喔"},{"start":926.426,"end":946.039,"text":"實踐這個居住正義除了是總統院長的責任也是民意對於這個東西的嚮往對於居住正義的嚮往所以現在才有很多年輕人為了買房很痛苦那我也相信院長大家都願意大刀闊斧的來推動來誠實面對國人對不對那所以包含過去的這個居住正義三支箭"},{"start":946.599,"end":973.887,"text":"社宅 實價登錄就是租屋補貼實價登錄以及新清安貸款的居住正義三件是不是都是過去的重要的政策那我們今天要來討論這件事就是希望務實的來看待這個成果所以我想要請教院長的第一件事情是賴清德承諾達到社會住宅25萬戶在2032年請問賴總統上任後至今規劃且核定的社會住宅數量是多少戶"},{"start":975.706,"end":984.209,"text":"數量請報告委員我們目前在今年度我們已經合訂了1170戶你說從賴總統那裡合訂的1100多戶很好但是我跟你說遠遠不夠你們目前為止這個是完全的落後"},{"start":992.992,"end":1007.841,"text":"跟委員報告我們因為是要採新辦所以我們包括說多元的方式包括都跟分會等等我知道可以有很多理由很多藉口可是我們直接看KPI就是差蠻遠的你到2032年你要蓋你要多蓋這麼多萬戶25萬戶總共要累積到25萬戶其實是差蠻多的"},{"start":1012.444,"end":1040.086,"text":"所以我想要跟你們說兩點跟委員報告過去的12萬戶他數量已經增加到一定程度所以可用的土地大概用的比較多了目前我們採多元的方式用不同的管道跟民間合作或是隆基的取回院長我剛剛前面就講過我們要針對不同包含社宅各個方方面面我們一起來檢視一下成績那我認為說其實目前的這個進度就是不夠好平坦講院長我不相信你這樣是很滿意的成果"},{"start":1040.726,"end":1065.174,"text":"以涉宅興建的部分所以我們為了加快我們有多元的方式還是你要告訴我你很滿意沒有 我們要跟委員報告就是說院長所指涉的多元的方式其實就包括說我們在直接興辦的部分我們包括會與民間合作我們包括會與地方政府合作採用相關的分回的方式來處理就是說相關的興辦不會只有直接興建這件事情還有其他的興辦的方式不好意思 我們一個一個來檢視成果"},{"start":1066.394,"end":1084.62,"text":"所以剛剛有講到現在的這個總數量其實已完工了以中央來講其實是7400多戶啦7400多戶當然還有一些準備要做的可是我想要講的事情是原定那我再繼續問一下吧原定今年將發包1.5萬戶的社宅目前是發包多少你剛剛說絕標1000多戶對不對"},{"start":1087.745,"end":1104.304,"text":"但是以前上次 之前的內政部長說每一年都計畫發包1.5萬戶啊你這樣完成率大概只有10% 11%欸所以你剛剛講的這麼多我們只是想要務實理性的面對就是目前這塊來不及跟上 也做不好"},{"start":1105.351,"end":1133.123,"text":"我們包括都跟分回的部分其實也有7000多戶然後再來就是說相關的發包的作業我們其實正在進行因為土地的取得的確比較困難所以我們要再跟地方政府合作目前我們透過區段徵收等等有一些分回的土地地方政府也很願意跟我們配合所以相關的都跟分回的土地或者是區段徵收分回的土地問題是你們現在決定到什麼時候幾戶現在可不可以講得出來我們到年底之前我們會盡量完成相關的發包"},{"start":1133.903,"end":1149.324,"text":"盡量完成相關發包 你預計幾戶我們就是在一萬五千戶的這樣子的一個目標下我們繼續努力所以你現在一千多戶 然後你到年底要可以發包一萬五千戶啊你現在到年底差我們已經有分為七千多戶的都更戶都更分回"},{"start":1150.287,"end":1173.344,"text":"我想要告訴你是社宅這一塊喔其實真的是不如人民的預期結果也不夠所以你才會想說我要用多元的方式去做可是事實上你們過去承諾是直接興建社宅數據就是不夠好那再來我請教一下院長喔新清安貸款的全名是什麼新清安貸款的全名是什麼你曉得嗎全名全部的名稱就是"},{"start":1175.454,"end":1190.675,"text":"協助青年沒關係我院長跟你說叫做青年安心成家購屋優惠貸款精進方案好那我想要請問一下院長你心目中的青年是幾歲到幾歲我知道青青是沒有年齡限制對那你心目中的青年幾歲到幾歲"},{"start":1192.113,"end":1210.102,"text":"我覺得現在大概40歲以下都是青山會的會員很好 你說40歲以下嘛那你知道40歲以上還申請新青安的戶數有幾戶嗎因為青青安本身它沒有這個所謂年齡的基本限制好 它整整34765戶 40歲以上那50歲以上有幾戶你們不知道嘛 對不對6765戶 60歲以上有幾戶"},{"start":1219.449,"end":1227.288,"text":"867戶所以剛剛我院長你說60這樣子聽起來你會不會覺得新清安這名字很奇怪應該把青年拿掉吧如果你沒有限定的話"},{"start":1230.259,"end":1249.714,"text":"當時的清安貸款其實基本上包括進進方案就是針對就是說有需要居住的人他的居住需求那他可以來申請所以我們基本上是以年輕人為主但是他有居住需求的他也可以來申請另外院長我想要請教一下那你只要年收入超過200萬以上申請新清安的戶數是多少嗎"},{"start":1251.363,"end":1280.142,"text":"兩百萬以上的現在看到的數據是一萬八千六百多戶三百萬以上是六千七百多戶四百萬以上是三千零七十一戶所以我想要表達的事情是他都有一個共同的要件他必須首購而且自用你首購是一個啦但是當然因為憑良心講你這個貸款的量有限嘛你的這個預算和你幫忙的量也有限嘛所以我想要問的事情是那這樣子真的有用到刀口上嗎"},{"start":1281.082,"end":1300.729,"text":"還是造成的效果是什麼如果是首購的話表示他原來不是自己有一個房屋他可能是租屋可能是一斤等等那如果首購他至少能夠自己用自己的力量來買到一個房子我只是要跟你探討說這樣子的是不是真的有用到倒口上"},{"start":1301.289,"end":1324.114,"text":"所以我想要問一下說行政院也推出新清安帶得到的方案那你們宣布自今年9月1號起將新清安排除在銀行法72條之2那不動產的比例在限制之外想要請問一下那到這個到底是管制到什麼時候是到結束日期是到什麼時候有設定嗎還是說就等到新清安整個結束我們是希望在這整個貸款的額度比較"},{"start":1324.915,"end":1342.263,"text":"接近滿水位的過程底下它警洩線套達的時候做一點管制將來如果我們能夠取回更多的現在的其他的代管能夠取回更多的話那這個空間能夠下降的話那可以再請金管會來共同研商院長我想要說的事情是其實資源都有限嘛"},{"start":1342.723,"end":1366.022,"text":"我們今天之所以討論然後講了這麼多數據就是要提醒資源有沒有用在刀口上這樣的資格或是相關的事情是不是要好好想一下說到底應該怎麼使用所以這是我想要講的這個點那新清安就到這裡因為時間有限我其實後面想要表達蠻多的我補充一個數字我們百分之新清安貸款有99%左右是用在就是說它是第一次首購組"},{"start":1366.883,"end":1388.389,"text":"所以基本上他還是合理的使用在這些青年或者是需要購房子的首購處裡面所以他並沒有大部分拿去投資炒作後面這句話我沒有這樣指控你喔我沒有這樣指控你喔為什麼那些年輕人的所得當然是他要買的房子跟他的所得之間是有關係的啊他的所得如果不夠他也沒有辦法去帶到合理的環境啦"},{"start":1390.43,"end":1418.58,"text":"你也可以去市場上問一問這個我相信多次的質詢都已經點出這個問題這個是不用辯駁的新青安下去之後是讓房價是越來越高的這是絕對的這個現實的狀況就是這樣那你有真的達到你當初想要推動所謂的居住正義完整的方案然後讓年輕人真的可以有享有到居住正義嗎這是今天我提出這個相關數據的一個問題那下一個要檢討的地方就是所謂的租金補貼施加登錄"},{"start":1419.62,"end":1437.938,"text":"租金補貼實價登錄之前就講過你們透過租金補貼其實短期很好我們當然是紓解這些青年需要這個弱勢租金的壓力但是中企是希望可以誘導房東登錄可以登錄可以報稅再來就是希望建立完整的租金實價登錄的資料庫"},{"start":1438.999,"end":1462.804,"text":"那我們才可以形成所謂這個市場的秩序跟價格透明這就是租屋市場我們希望達到的一個政策目標可是上次我其實在一年多前我總諮詢的時候就有說你們補貼的戶數是將近60萬戶可是真正有登錄的只有10萬戶所以等於相對來講就是有這個黑數50萬戶那到了今年我有去看了成長了很不錯成長了變成16萬戶可是還有多少萬戶還是有30幾萬戶是黑數"},{"start":1467.905,"end":1485.604,"text":"還是有39萬護士回溯是不是這樣子要跟委員報告實價登錄的部分租金實價登錄的部分首先包租代管的業者他是必須一定要登錄這是由包租代管來處理至於其他的部分因為個人房東的部分佔了89%那麼許多的租金的補貼為什麼我們沒辦法做我們其實行政院"},{"start":1486.964,"end":1509.952,"text":"我們在那個每一年都會公佈兩次的租金區域的分佈狀況但是事實就是事實沒有達到政策目標或是不夠好我們就誠實面對然後我們來想辦法一起來改進我們會進行相關的租金的公佈但是租金的公佈要涉及到一個東西是他的租金的實價登錄會涉及到每一個屋型每一個房型每一個房東投入的狀況不同區段的不同"},{"start":1511.192,"end":1526.126,"text":"所以你做租金實價登錄其實反而會影響的租金市場跟租屋市場的影響同一棟樓的兩間房子他不一定是同樣的狀況同樣的現在還有很多的相關的問題我們現在沒有要一一細節猜下去猜下去講不完反而會造成租金的上漲"},{"start":1526.767,"end":1556.18,"text":"所以我們希望說透過市長那我就想問啦如果你今天做了這件事情你覺得自愛難行有很多的問題的時候你一直補一堆錢進去那他是不是早知越來越糟糕的惡性循環呢所以我們會透過租金的區域的公佈租金的實價的區域的公佈我們其實都有在公佈我們每一年的那個開學前的那兩次院長不好意思 市長我們其實剛剛講了我們是針對每一件事情我拆開來告訴你們你們現在的成果"},{"start":1556.58,"end":1576.239,"text":"就是不打標那我們大家前面我也開頭講我相信院長願意誠實面對現在的數字我們來一起想辦法一起來努力看怎麼解決當然要檢討該檢討的做不好就是要去檢討但是今天之所以講了這幾個方面也就是想要跟你們說目前看起來你們做的這些事情"},{"start":1576.88,"end":1599.456,"text":"做下去之後成效還是很糟糕所謂很糟糕就是居住正義還是越來越高像南比爾公布的數據房價所得比19.6那代表是年輕人要不吃不喝20年才買得起房子當然他這可能是針對都會區但是當然內政部公布全台灣也是10點多等於是不吃不喝10年才買得起市區一點的都16 17 18 19這個是一個很嚴重的狀況所以簡單來講現在"},{"start":1606.061,"end":1624.08,"text":"房屋買不起租屋租不好設宅等不到嘛對不對所以我要講的事情是設宅基本上現在看起來剛剛的數據就是供給緩慢杯水車薪再來租金補貼就是落入這個黑洞的善意嘛有很多錢進去了也有聽過那個屋主說好3000塊一人一半"},{"start":1625.521,"end":1626.762,"text":"租金跟房客之間的權益關係要把它明確化"},{"start":1655.821,"end":1673.547,"text":"導致我們遇到的危機就還是持續的上升那今天本席想要說的事情是如果居住正義三支線的效能受到質疑了我們有沒有第四條路徑可以來做呢會不會來做呢所以我想要本席想要在這裡就是想要大膽的建議一下我覺得"},{"start":1674.767,"end":1685.232,"text":"我想要問一下院長我們可不可以想像給年輕人給年輕人在捷運站附近買得到一坪將近成本價也就是一坪可能20到25萬的房子"},{"start":1686.291,"end":1714.77,"text":"我們的捷運站附近有租金的一些特別的補助方式那剛剛委員所說的我們剛剛幾個政策資金下來就是一直在把它優化所以院長我今天要特別的打開第四條道路剛剛講的是說先面對現在的狀況可是看起來它的惡性循環就在發生我們要有新的結構可能要有新的東西來加入所以本席想要大膽的建議一個政策建議您可以回去研究一下可負擔宅"},{"start":1715.37,"end":1732.702,"text":"半永久性的可負擔宅也就是說我們希望參考其實有一些國際案例包含新加坡的主屋包含新加坡的主屋所以我們希望說在一個限定的市場裡面也就是說封閉的市場裡面嚴格限制買賣資格讓政府來打造一個封閉市場"},{"start":1734.283,"end":1753.037,"text":"這個預防投機客炒作然後我們可以透過結合TOD的方式也就是捷運線附近的可以給政府的增額容積獎勵的部分政府可以拿出來做這種所謂的封閉市場的半永久性的可負擔宅我舉個例子可能是99年"},{"start":1754.62,"end":1769.259,"text":"可能是99年然後你要限制他買賣的金額比如說你就只能夠用一定的公式你就只能夠用一定的公式所以基本上成功比較成功的案例我們可以參考的像是新加坡主屋他有嚴格的申請資格的審查"},{"start":1770.02,"end":1795.829,"text":"譬如說你一定是居民不用講那你可能要結婚結婚有多少點數小孩有多少點數然後再來你第一手買進來之後第二手嚴格限制他的轉售的條件也就是說你五年後才可以轉可是你轉的人也是必須讓政府來審核你一定要符合相對的條件你才可以來申請這個轉售然後第三個封閉市場也可以防止他暴力的政府和那個生產"},{"start":1796.889,"end":1815.219,"text":"所以我們想要說的事情是一個使用權的可負擔宅的模式搭配上TOD讓政府把他們的土地像現在蓋設宅一樣有部分的容積拿出來打造這樣子的一個市場一個多元性的選擇一個中間型的住宅我相信這個是一個可以做到的事情"},{"start":1815.859,"end":1838.293,"text":"所以這有幾個好處土地 國有 房屋常用然後它的價格會跟成本掛鉤它不會跟市場掛鉤然後封閉的市場它可以拒絕炒作再來它有一個永續的公共資產它也可以隨著TOD的城市發展去做開發然後讓這些人可以享有這樣子的房子而且它長期居住不會感覺到"},{"start":1839.244,"end":1857.012,"text":"我時間到了 社宅六年到了 八年到了我又要回去租屋市場我們的地上選宅 使用選宅都有這樣的類似概念我知道委員長發言我們的青年婚育宅本來就是12年我們就是希望讓這12年還不夠我剛剛講了新加坡的這個參考本席想要"},{"start":1870.287,"end":1870.307,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（15時49分）謝謝主席，請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長好。院長，第一題我想要請教一下，最近有一些閃兵的事件發生，不曉得院長有沒有掌握這個事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：早上有委員提到。"],["廖委員偉翔：也有委員提到，對不對？律師曝刑責差異，所以建議今天都去自首。針對閃兵的狀況，想要問一下院長的態度是什麼？就對於這件事情的看法，也就是如果他自首了，就可以有更低的刑責，這個部分請院長回應一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：原則上服兵役是國民的義務也是對國家忠誠的表現，國家現在也需要有這樣的訓練，讓我們的國防體系能夠強化，這個才是重點，不在於他犯罪之後的處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以他去自首的話，刑責會不會比較低？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照法律自首都有降低刑責……"],["廖委員偉翔：那你也要呼籲他們，就是有這樣狀況的人儘快去自首嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我要呼籲的是大家要去服兵役的義務，而不是呼籲大家去自首。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，本席就是想要問院長的態度而已。再來下一題，不知道院長有沒有掌握到羅浮宮在大白天遭搶這個事件，不曉得院長有沒有掌握？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個看起來有一點像電影的情節。"],["廖委員偉翔：那有掌握嗎？您曉得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有很了解為什麼會這樣，但這兩天的媒體都有很清楚的報導。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我很快速的講，基本上它19日發生重大竊案，4名竊賊用7分鐘的時間就闖進去阿波羅長廊，偷走8件完全沒有辦法估計的古文物，所以這件事震驚全球。本席看到這個事件想問院長，你們有沒有什麼作法，有沒有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我第一個覺得很不可思議……"],["廖委員偉翔：過去有這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣的情節過去好像在電影上看得到，但是我們要反求諸己，我們在重要的關鍵基礎設施以及重要類似的場合……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我就是要問這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要如何加強……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問院長有沒有想到……"],["卓院長榮泰：很怕會有模仿效應出現。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以院長，你有沒有想到這件事？有沒有趕快責成相關的單位，包含故宮或是國家級所有相關的館藏，趕快重新檢視我們的保全夠不夠？有沒有演習？有沒有任何問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：請次長回答。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，在院長跟總統的指示之下，我們對國家關鍵CI其實都有加強的保護，所以許多警力都已經布置在那邊，而且我們平常就已經有演習……"],["廖委員偉翔：本席想要請問這個事件發生之後，你們有沒有趕快去了解要怎麼預防？"],["主席：時間暫停，故宮博物院院長要不要備詢？好，麻煩請故宮博物院院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，請院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，這個事情我們得到訊息以後，就責成由副院長召集會議，然後模擬可能發生的狀況，加強整個防護的設備，基本上來講，故宮的三層設備一直都是非常正常的運作，包括故宮還有一個比較特殊的，就是國內博物館沒有的，我們有警犬隊。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我想要跟您報告，兩位院長和次長，羅浮宮在盜竊以前，據說也有很多人跟它說可能會有問題，他們也是相當有自信，覺得這是全世界最好的博物館，他們的保全最佳、最好，所以本席要講的事情是，看到這個事要迅速的反應之外，院長，是不是也應該要想辦法去了解羅浮宮到底出了什麼狀況？先看別人發生了什麼漏洞，也同時檢視我們有沒有漏洞跟要去演習，這個部分可以嗎？因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：料敵從嚴，這個意思是我們對任何事件這樣處理。委員今天的提醒，會讓我們再去做全面性的檢討跟強化。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，請院長還有故宮的院長，要責成相關的單位，包含警力、軍方或是可能會牽扯到的相關單位，然後重新檢視自己的安全層級夠不夠，甚至內部的保全人員量能夠不夠，還有哪裡有科技死角，以及科技有沒有需要精進的地方。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，我們跟管區的轄區包括檢調單位都有保持密切的聯繫，只要有任何風吹草動，接到情資的話，我們馬上會啟動緊急應變的措施。"],["廖委員偉翔：還是要儘速檢討，羅浮宮的事情才剛發生，要全面儘速檢討，因為任何館藏、任何一件文物遺失，我想都不是任何人想看到，而且大家也都承擔不起。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，而且我們在針對五大威脅的國安17項措施當中，對於關鍵基礎設施早就已經在做這樣的工作了，我們除了法制，措施、方案、計畫都會把它完成。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，針對羅浮宮事件就先這樣，請儘速的責成相關單位，是不是一個月內的時間可以給本席辦公室一個相關的檢討報告？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：更快都沒有問題，應該更快。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝院長。下一題請李洋部長。"],["主席：請運動部部長備詢。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，因為部長還在走路，時間有限的關係……部長好。身為第一任的運動部長，又是金牌的運動員出身，本席是相當的敬佩，也是你的粉絲！我相信你一定關心各類新興運動的發展，我今天有一個訴求，想要替一個結合科技、教育跟運動的新興項目爭取納入運動部的管轄。現在運動部針對無動力飛行納入管理項目，代表政府早已承認這個飛行運動的安全性跟經濟價值，可是有競技內容相似的競技活動，像是競技無人機，還有無人足球等等，這種動力飛行其實在國際上面已經是正式的體育項目！可是在臺灣，目前是沒有主管、沒有制度、沒有方向，所以想要問一下部長，這個部分是不是可以儘速納入？這個是第一個問題。"],["李部長洋：跟委員報告，過往電競、圍棋等都不是我們所泛知的運動，但在亞運現在也都有了。我們運動部的成立也會廣納運動的多元性，當然我們會跟進國際的趨勢。"],["廖委員偉翔：想要跟部長報告的是，可能要儘速研議，因為我相信，這其實是一個結合AI、結合航太科技、結合工程教育、結合運動競技的一項競技活動，所以三個具體的訴求是希望，第一個，運動部可不可以儘速修訂運動項目分類，增列「動力飛行項目」？因為國際航空聯盟（FAI）已經有相關的前例可循。第二個，請部長支持設立科技運動相關的類別，讓AI體感運動、VR運動、機器人格鬥都有制度可以隸屬。第三個，要請運動部跟教育部，合作研議啟動「全國中小學競技無人機示範賽」與「STEM教育結合計畫」，讓學生可以從學習到比賽，從實作到創新，這是我主要的三個訴求。因為臺灣也是少數擁有完整無人機產業鏈的國家，包含晶片、馬達、碳纖維機的自製，如果可以把這些東西帶進去的話，可能也可以是一個新的國家品牌，所以這個部分，是不是可以請李部長回去研議這個方向？"],["李部長洋：跟委員報告，我們會帶回去研議。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長，拜託也把研議的結果，看一個月內是不是給本席辦公室？"],["李部長洋：因為這個比較新興，是不是可以多一點時間？"],["廖委員偉翔：可以，那部長覺得要多久的時間？"],["李部長洋：看是不是可以三個月？"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒問題，謝謝部長。"],["李部長洋：謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，院長，我第三個part的訴求也很重要，想要先問院長一下，你有沒有點過外送？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你有在下雨天點過嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：太大的雨我也不會點，但也會在小雨的時候點。"],["廖委員偉翔：小雨的時候也會有嘛！院長，其實外送產業已經深入我們的生活。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：自所謂粉色系的廠商在2012登臺以來，這個產業在臺灣已經超過12年了，從2012年到現在已經超過12年了，疫情後更是爆發性的成長，從業人員從5萬變成15萬，暴增了三倍，而且這群人裡面，依據研究報告，有四成到六成可能是全職依賴外送這個產業，但是這群人的權益其實是在法律的灰色地帶。","我另外想要問一下院長或者部長，你們知道單筆的外送費是多少錢嗎？單筆的外送費，知不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：你說的是保底的價格嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：對，單筆的。"],["洪部長申翰：第一筆是45，最新的是45。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是其實大家都不知道，因為它的演算法會改變，所以曾經也發生過，它第二筆連續的訂單降得非常低。"],["洪部長申翰：這是在今年7月發生的事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我要告訴你們的是，這個問題，憑良心講，我剛剛問你，你說45塊，但是我要說的是，其實大家都不知道！為什麼？因為演算法沒有那麼透明。所以他們現在面臨……"],["卓院長榮泰：勞動部有來報告過這個演算法，我們也在檢討如何保障外送員的權益……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以他們面臨的困境，包含外送費過低、演算法不透明、相關職業保險的完整性不夠，也沒有合理的申訴管道，更重要的是，外送員跟平台的關係到底是什麼？究竟是僱傭呢？還是承攬呢？還是因為新興的經濟模式，它有新的關係，這個其實都還沒有定。","再來，我們是不是應該參考歐美的模式，譬如說歐洲的模式，走出新的一條道路？所以我們要儘速的來討論修法的方向，不然現在的結果就是他們可能面臨每一天32個以上的交通事故，沒有完整的保障，在這個惡劣的環境下，其實他們也非常的辛苦，而且還可能因為演算法不透明，因此被演算法霸凌。所以我們希望有相關的立法方向，第一個明定最低外送費的保障；第二個是要有一個公開透明的演算法機制；第三個制度化的申訴機制，因為他們如果突然被停工，他突然就不能工作了；第四個是加強相關的職業保險；第五個，我們當然也希望讓這個產業可以長長久久，所以我們希望平衡平台、外送員、商家跟消費者之間的權利義務。院長，關於這幾個方向，請問您是不是支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員提出幾個重點，我也知道現在大院裡面正在討論這個事情，其實行政院從過去這一段時間，就一直在注意整個外送員的基本權利，所以我們也請交通部跟勞動部就業務本身、行為人、外送平台的權益來做分別……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，院長，難得可以直接質詢到你，我相信很多細節未來我們可以在各個委員會跟兩位部長討論，可是本席只是要院長一個態度，因為其實已經拖很久，以前在修法的過程中，中央各個單位不想當主責機關，可是我要跟院長報告，今天早上本席開了記者會，今天早上民進黨團也開了記者會，也表明支持，所以難得立法院藍、綠、白大家都支持，雖然現在還沒有民進黨團的版本，可是已經有多位國民黨的委員版本以及民眾黨的版本，那現在民進黨有版本了但還沒送進來，所以代表三方都同意了。雖然說過去完全執政，應該從從容容就可以立法，但是現在匆匆忙忙的補上來也沒關係，大家一起努力，本席希望院長可以好好支持，很多細節我們未來可以討論，但是想要先看院長的態度是否支持這樣的修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在有一個指引，針對這整個行為勞動部有一個指引，那這個指引的內容，我們如果要正式讓它法制化的話，它必須要充充分分，而且要方方面面都要達到，現在勞動部正在做這樣的努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，我們希望好好地討論，因為之前的指引其實很多市政府有地方的自治法規，可是他們遇到的問題就是因為沒有上位的法、沒有母法，甚至到憲法的制度之後，他可能在法院打官司講不清楚，這就是為什麼現在我們要趕緊立法，希望我們大家可以一起來努力，來增進產業，好不好？謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，對於外送員跟相關權益的法制化，其實這幾個月我們一直在研議。剛剛委員在講的幾個問題，我們也都覺得是可以有把它法制化的空間，所以我們對於立法法制化這件事情持更開放的態度，我們也很願意接下來在立法院跟朝野的委員一起來好好討論跟審議，因為這是可以朝野一起合作。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好，謝謝部長，也謝謝院長持很正面的態度，所以我們一起來努力，我們希望盡速推動修法，完善平台以及完善尤其是外送從業人員的權益，還有各方面的利益的平衡，這是我們大家要共同努力的，謝謝兩位部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個會由交通部跟勞動部合力來完成這個事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝兩位部長，請回。","再來，院長，想要請問一下「落實居住正義是政府最重要的政策之一」，這句話是誰說的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們歷屆的總統都說過這樣的話吧！"],["廖委員偉翔：很好，完整的字句是2023年選總統的賴清德總統講的。院長，我也想請教一下，您對於賴總統提出的居住正義承諾有哪些，您懂不懂？你有沒有記下來？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有百萬租屋計畫。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，除了百萬租屋計畫之外，其實還有包括你們有講的推動囤房稅2.0，對不對？2023年要累積興辦25萬戶的社會住宅，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：這是指直接興辦喔！還有25萬戶包租代管，50萬戶租金補貼嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：50萬戶租金補貼。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以顯而易見，實踐居住正義，除了是總統、院長的責任，也是民意對於居住正義的嚮往，所以現在才有很多年輕人為了買房很痛苦。那我也相信院長大家都願意大刀闊斧的來推動，來誠實面對國人，對不對？包含過去的居住正義三支箭：社宅、租屋補貼、實價登錄，以及新青安貸款的居住正義三箭，都是過去重要的政策。我們今天要來討論這件事，就是希望務實的來看待這個成果。所以，我想請教院長的第一件事情，賴清德總統承諾要在2032年達到社會住宅25萬戶，請問賴總統上任後至今規劃且核定的社會住宅數量是多少戶？"],["卓院長榮泰：有關數量，我請董次長說明。"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，我們目前在今年度已經核定了1,170戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：你是說從賴總統任內核定的嘛，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對，賴總統任內核定的。"],["廖委員偉翔：一千一百多戶嘛！"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，很好。但是我跟你說遠遠不夠，目前為止，你們是完全的落後啊！已經……"],["董次長建宏：沒有。跟委員報告，我們因為是要採興辦，所以包括多元的方式，像都更分回等等……"],["廖委員偉翔：不好意思喔！我知道可以有很多理由、很多藉口……"],["董次長建宏：不是理由、藉口，我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：我們直接看KPI就是差蠻遠的嘛！你到2032年要蓋這麼多萬戶，總共要累積到25萬戶，其實是差蠻多的。所以，我想要跟你們說……"],["卓院長榮泰：有兩點要跟委員報告，過去的12萬戶，數量已經增加到一定的程度，所以可用的土地大概用得比較多了。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在真正可以……"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我們是採多元的方式，用不同的管道……"],["廖委員偉翔：當然、當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟民間合作，或是容積的取回。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我剛剛前面有講過，我們要針對不同包含社宅，各個方方面面，我們一起來檢視一下成績嘛！我認為目前的進度就是不夠好嘛！憑良心講，院長，我不相信你很滿意這樣的成果，以社宅興建的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以為了加快，我們採用多元的方式。"],["廖委員偉翔：還是你要告訴我，你很滿意？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，院長所指涉的多元方式，其實包括我們在直接興辦的部分，包括會與民間合作、會與地方政府合作，採用相關分回的方式來處理……"],["廖委員偉翔：這個都在做，現在看到的……"],["董次長建宏：也就是現在興辦的不會只有直接興建這件事，還有其他興辦的方式。"],["廖委員偉翔：不好意思，我們一個一個來檢視成果喔！所以剛剛有講到了，現在已完工的總數量，以中央來講其實是七千四百多戶啦！當然還有一些準備要做的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不止、不止。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要講的事情是原訂……我再繼續問一下，原訂今年將發包1.5萬戶的社宅，目前是發包多少？你剛剛說決標一千多戶嘛，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是之前內政部長說，每一年都計劃發包1.5萬戶啊！你們這樣完成率大概只有10%、11%，所以你剛剛講的這麼多，我們只是想要務實理性的面對，就是目前這塊來不及跟上，也做不好。"],["董次長建宏：沒有。我們包括都更分回的部分，其實也有七千多戶，再來是相關的發包作業，我們其實都正在進行，因為土地的取得的確比較困難，所以我們要再跟地方政府合作。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們原本……"],["董次長建宏：目前我們透過區段徵收等等，有一些分回的土地，地方政府也很願意跟我們配合。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問一下……"],["董次長建宏：所以相關的都更或者是區段徵收分回的土地……"],["廖委員偉翔：現在幾戶？問題是你們現在決定到什麼時候？有幾戶？現在可不可以講得出來，能如期達標嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們到年底之前，會儘量完成相關的發包。"],["廖委員偉翔：儘量完成相關發包，你預計幾戶？"],["董次長建宏：我們以1萬5,000戶這樣的一個目標下，會繼續努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你現在一千多戶，你到年底要可以發包1萬5,000戶？現在到年底剩2、3個月耶！"],["董次長建宏：我們已經有分回七千多戶的都更分回戶。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要告訴你們的是社宅這塊，其實真的是不如人民的預期，結果也不夠，所以你們才會想要用多元的方式去做，可是事實上你們過去承諾是直接興建社宅，數據就是不夠啦！再來，我請教一下院長，新青安貸款的全名是什麼？你曉得嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：全名？"],["廖委員偉翔：全部的名稱。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是協助青年……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係。院長，我跟你說叫做「青年安心成家購屋優惠貸款精進方案」。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問一下院長，你心目中的青年是幾歲到幾歲？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道新青安是沒有年齡限制。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。你心目中的青年幾歲到幾歲？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得現在大概40歲以下都是青商會的會員吧！"],["廖委員偉翔：很好，你說40歲以下嘛！你知道40歲以上還申請新青安的戶數有幾戶嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為新青安本身沒有所謂年齡的基本限制。"],["廖委員偉翔：40歲以上的整整3萬4,765戶，而50歲以上有幾戶？你們不知道嘛，對不對？是6,765戶，60歲以上有幾戶？是867戶。所以院長，剛剛這樣聽起來，你會不會覺得新青安這個名字很奇怪？如果你們沒有限定的話，應該把青年拿掉吧！"],["董次長建宏：當時的青安貸款，基本上包括精進方案就是針對有需要居住的人，他有居住需求就可以來申請。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以新青安是沒有限制的？"],["董次長建宏：我們基本上是以年輕人為主，但有居住需求的也可以來申請。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外，院長，我想要請教一下，年收入超過200萬以上申請新青安的戶數，你知道是多少嗎？年收200萬以上的，現在看到的數據是一萬八千六百多戶，300萬以上是六千七百多戶，400萬以上是三千零七十一戶。所以我想要表達的事情是……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是他都有一個共同要件，就是必須首購，而且要自用！"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，首購是一個。憑良心講，貸款的量有限，而你的預算和你幫忙的量也有限，所以我想問的事情是：這樣真的有用在刀口上嗎？所造成的效果是什麼？這是我們剛剛要檢討的一件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是首購的話，表示他原來不是自己有房屋，可能是租屋，可能是依親等等。但首購的話至少能夠自己用自己的力量來買房子……"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我剛剛把數據都列出來是要跟你探討，這樣是不是真的有用在刀口上？所以我想請問，行政院推出新青安貸得到方案，並宣布自今年9月1號起，將新青安排除在銀行法第七十二條之二不動產限制比例之外。我想請問，到底要管制到什麼時候？結束日期到什麼時候？有設定嗎？還是就等新青安整個結束？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望在貸款額度比較接近滿水位，警戒線到達的時候做一點管制。將來如果我們能夠取回更多的其他貸款，讓這個空間能夠下降，屆時可以再請金管會來共同研商。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我想要說的是資源都有限！我們今天之所以討論，還講了這麼多數據，為的就是提醒資源有沒有用在刀口上！所以是不是應該在資格或相關事情上好好想一下，到底要怎麼使用？這是我想要講的點。新青安就講到這裡，因為時間有限，我其實後面想要表達的……"],["董次長建宏：委員，我補充一個數字。新青安貸款有百分之九十九左右是用在第一次的首購族，所以基本上還是合理的使用在青年，或需要購買房子的首購族上，並沒有大部分拿去投機炒作，至於……"],["廖委員偉翔：後面這句話我沒有這樣指控你喔！我沒有這樣指控你喔！我也沒有這樣指控用新青安的人！"],["董次長建宏：至於您提到那些年輕人的所得，因為他要買房子，所以當然跟他的所得是有關係的。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是你可以去……"],["董次長建宏：他的所得如果不夠，也沒有辦法貸到合理的空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：不過你也可以去市場上問一問！你可以去市場上問一問，我相信在多次的質詢中已經點出這問題，這點是不用辯駁的。新青安下去之後，事實上房價就是越來越高，這是絕對的，現實的狀況就是這樣！所以有真的達到你當初想要推動所謂的居住正義完整方案，讓年輕人可以真的享有到居住正義嗎？這是今天我提出相關數據的問題所在。","至於下一個要檢討的就是所謂的租金補貼與實價登錄。租金補貼實價登錄之前就講過了，你們透過租金補貼，短期來講很好，當然紓解了這些青年、弱勢需要租金補貼的壓力，至於中期則希望可以誘導房東登錄，對不對？可以登錄，可以報稅。再來就是希望建立完整的租金實價登錄資料庫，這樣才可以形成市場秩序，讓價格透明，這是我們在租屋市場希望達到的政策目標。其實在一年多前我總質詢時就說過，補貼的戶數將近六十萬戶，但真正有登錄的只有十萬戶，相對來講，等於有黑數五十萬戶。今年我去看了，成長了，很不錯，變成十六萬戶，可是還有多少萬戶？還是有三十幾萬戶是黑數，還是有三十幾萬戶是黑數，是不是這樣子？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，有關租金實價登錄部分，首先，包租代管業者必須一定要登錄，這是由包租代管處理的。至於其他部分，因為個人房東占了98%，而許多租金的補貼為什麼沒有辦法…………"],["廖委員偉翔：院長、次長……"],["董次長建宏：其實行政院每一年都會公布兩次的租金區域分布狀況……"],["廖委員偉翔：我們都可以找到滿多理由，但事實就是事實，既然沒有達到政策目標或是不夠好，那就誠實面對，然後一起來想辦法改進……"],["董次長建宏：我要說明的是，我們會努力進行租金的公布，但租金的公布涉及到一個東西，也就是租金實價登錄會涉及到每一個屋型、每一個房型，且每一個房東投入的狀況不同、區段不同，所以做租金實價登錄反而影響了租金市場跟租屋市場。同一棟樓的兩間房子不一定是同樣的狀況……"],["廖委員偉翔：現在還有很多相關問題，我現在沒有想一一把細節拆解下去，因為一旦拆下去會講不完的……"],["董次長建宏：以租金實價登錄來說，反而會造成租金上漲！所以我們希望透過區域的資料……"],["廖委員偉翔：次長，那我就想問，如果你今天做了這件事情覺得窒礙難行，有很多問題的時候，又一直補一堆錢進去，是不是會導致越來越糟糕的惡性循環？"],["董次長建宏：沒有、沒有，所以我們透過租金的區域公布，租金的實價區域公布……"],["廖委員偉翔：你還要持續丟嗎？一年三百多億耶！"],["董次長建宏：我們其實都有在公布，在每一年開學前有兩次，在7月跟5月……"],["廖委員偉翔：不好意思，次長，我剛剛講了，我們是針對每一件事情，我拆開來告訴你們，你們現在的成果就是不達標嘛！前面我在開頭時也講了，我相信院長願意誠實面對現在的數字，我們來一起想辦法、一起來努力看怎麼解決嘛！當然要檢討、該檢討的，做不好的就是要去檢討，今天之所以講了這幾個方面也就是想要跟你們說，目前看起來，你們做的這些事情做下去之後的成效還是很糟糕，所謂很糟糕就是居住正義的目標還是越來越高啊！像Numbeo公布的數據，房價所得比是19.6，代表年輕人要不吃不喝20年才買得起房子，當然這可能是針對都會區，但是內政部公布全臺灣的房價所得比也是十點多，等於是不吃不喝10年才買得起，市區一點的地方都要16、17、18、19，這是很嚴重的狀況啊！簡單來講，現在是房屋買不起、租屋租不好、社宅等不到嘛，對不對？所以我要講的事情是，社宅基本上從剛剛的數據來看，現在就是供給緩慢、杯水車薪；再來，租金補貼就是落入黑洞的善意嘛，有很多錢進去了，也有聽過屋主說3,000塊一人一半，這個也沒有什麼好處，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：我們正在修租賃條例，我們會把這部分加進去做修正……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以新青安……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以才要有一個好的手法、方法來處理這個……"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛的邏輯run下來，我們現在要誠實面對啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：租金跟房客之間的權益關係要把它明確化。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，新青安現在……講到新青安，剛剛講租金了嘛，租金是善意的黑洞，所以你才要調整嘛，沒錯嘛！現在新青安也是啊，新青安之前算是飲鴆止渴，它導致市場也往上漲，結果是這樣，導致我們遇到的危機還是持續上升！","今天本席想要說的事情是，如果居住正義三支箭的效能受到質疑了，我們有沒有第四條路徑可以來做呢？所以本席想要在這裡大膽的建議一下，我想要先問一下院長，我們可不可以想像給年輕人在捷運站附近買得到接近成本價，也就是一坪可能20萬到25萬的房子？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在捷運站附近有租金的一些特別補助方式，剛剛委員所說的，我們幾個政策執行下來就是一直在把它優化。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以院長，我今天要特別的打開第四條道路，剛剛講的是先面對現在的狀況，可是看起來它的惡性循環就在發生，我們要有新的結構，可能要有新的東西來加入，所以本席想要大膽的提出一個政策建議，您可以回去研究一下可負擔宅，半永久性的可負擔宅，也就是說，我們希望參考一些國際案例，包含新加坡的組屋。我們希望在一個限定的市場裡面，也就是在封閉的市場裡面，嚴格限制買賣資格，讓政府來打造一個封閉市場，預防投機客炒作，然後我們可以透過結合TOD的方式，也就是捷運線附近可以給政府增額容積獎勵的部分，政府可以拿出來做這種所謂封閉市場的半永久性可負擔宅。我舉個例子，可能是99年，然後要限制買賣的金額，比如說就只能夠用一定的公式。基本上比較成功的案例，我們可以參考的像是新加坡組屋，它有嚴格的申請資格審查，比如一定是居民這不用講，你可能要結婚，結婚有多少點數，小孩有多少點數；再來，第一手買進來之後，第二手嚴格限制他的轉售條件，也就是說5年後才可以轉，可是你轉的人也必須讓政府來審核，一定要符合相對的條件才可以申請轉售；第三個，封閉市場也可以防止暴利的增幅和生成。","所以我們想要說的是一個使用權的可負擔宅模式搭配上TOD，讓政府把他們的土地像現在蓋社宅一樣，把部分的容積拿出來，打造這樣的市場，一個多元性的選擇、一個中間型的住宅，我相信這是一個可以做到的事情。這有幾個好處，土地國有、房屋長用，然後它的價格會跟成本掛鉤，不會跟市場掛鉤，而且封閉的市場可以拒絕炒作，再來，有一個永續的公共資產，也可以隨著TOD的城市發展去做開發，然後讓這些人可以享有這樣的房子，而且他長期居住，不會感覺到時間到了，像社宅6年到了、8年到了後又要回去租屋市場。所以次長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的地上權宅、使用權宅都有類似的概念……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我知道……"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我們的青年婚育宅本來就是12年，我們就是希望讓這些年輕人……"],["廖委員偉翔：12年還不夠，我剛剛講的新加坡例子可以參考，本席想要說的是……"],["董次長建宏：相關的政策，如果我們把時間拉長，其實它會有很多其他的成本，委員剛才前面講說我們社宅提供的不夠，但你現在又跟我們講說每一個人社宅的居住時間不夠，這個其實都是需要時間成本做處理，我們會積極去繼續做。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：次長，我知道了，但我覺得你一直在defend，我今天是想要提供一個政策建議，你不能不面對以前的狀況。"],["董次長建宏：我們會反覆參考這些……"],["廖委員偉翔：我今天是說社宅要有，租屋市場也要有，現在是多一種選擇性，我們希望提供這些意見給院長、次長回去參考，回去研究。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後地方政府想要做示範區的話，請你們也可以去大力協助，因為本席認為這是一個很好的解方，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖偉翔委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。","謝謝林沛祥委員、范雲委員及林月琴委員陪同我們一起參與今天的總質詢。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（16時20分）","繼續開會（16時31分）"],["主席：報告院會，我們現在繼續開會。請各位閣員就座。","接下來我們請林月琴委員質詢，游顥委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164478","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164478","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f7f03c841f11d6425ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d2f3ee4f7ce62287085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"15:18:00 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自我改進那未來也希望委員繼續在這邊督促"},{"start":209.597,"end":218.243,"text":"整個在防衛任性整個國安任性這方面的工作我們還是要持續進行因為時間的關係部長我想我們細節不要在這裡討論是因為其實後來這一筆預算我們有同意我們並沒有刪減可是現在突然又發生這個事情這樣的狀況我等一下會說如果這樣子的狀況沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下其實這一筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行"},{"start":237.875,"end":259.853,"text":"官委員給我30秒就好了第一個就這個預算17億多這個是整建的部分而且並沒有湖邊的一個狀況那我們會後續會來向省省的來管制這個預算不至於被有任何的一個濫用的狀況那至於其他有關這些"},{"start":261.533,"end":274.838,"text":"媒體報了這些相關的這些什麼收集演信資訊 篡改春節戰備輪值引進這個中資背景公司露營運送湖標露營 未採取保密措施接受廠商參與等等這些"},{"start":275.768,"end":292.859,"text":"我們經過初步調查而且是審查這些佐證資料海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情史但我還是要求因為他還是要給我一份詳細的一個書面報告那至於預算的部分我們一定會審慎來運用這個我們獲得的預算"},{"start":296.448,"end":321.455,"text":"部長 長官還在的情況之下如果去裡面用問卷調查我想沒有人敢寫啦這個部分的調查這個客觀後續你們看怎麼處理不過在這裡院長部長這一件事情事實上並不像周刊刊登的這麼單純而已本席接獲民眾檢舉林昌玉上校在邀請相關的設備商營造商進行會刊研討"},{"start":323.056,"end":339.575,"text":"採購標案內容的過程當中他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討這個都有照片甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有PO出來這個非常的清楚而且他的英文名這個可以去調查因為他去的像他甚至跟"},{"start":340.756,"end":356.132,"text":"像十大队就是我们六连队下辖的其中一个大队C13动运输大队其实关系也都非常密切可以从他的个人的这个社群媒体上网站上面可以看得出来他非常吃得开可是"},{"start":357.173,"end":372.304,"text":"他的人際關係如何是另外一回事那這一位特定人士陳先生他跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的而且這些大陸的像宜航航空學院"},{"start":373.084,"end":391.467,"text":"南通航運職業技術學院以及上海宜航通用有限公司這個跟陳先生的關係我們請國防部還有院長其實一併調查他到底這樣的一個學術單位跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼我們是不是也要深入了解"},{"start":392.648,"end":399.112,"text":"這個為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下這個主官其實應該先調離現職才有辦法真的深入調查就像部長你會非常生氣說我們的警監系統其實他是有錄製的他是有這樣的狀況所有的我們的"},{"start":412,"end":439.129,"text":"我們的監視器其實都是都有錄製的那個零件在裡面的時候其實我們是不能接受的那一樣這個大氣海洋局甚至我們花了這麼高而你還甚至要用脈衝的這個防護的這樣興建一棟大樓可見他要做的是什麼如果他是重要的這個就一定要查清楚他的背景相關的資料等等這個是不是應該要去做一個考慮"},{"start":440.57,"end":461.127,"text":"我想這些相關的預算是作為整件不是新件是第一個第二個剛剛委員因為所提到的這些週刊上面所報的還有剛剛委員垂詢的這些事項因為都涉及到相關的細節我想也沒有時間在這邊做一一的回覆但我想我們會有一個詳細的一個報告那當然要有海軍要嚴查 嚴查之後我們"},{"start":462.288,"end":489.151,"text":"會來跟社會做一個徹底的說明部長我說的不是只有工程而已喔我說的不是只有預算喔因為他只要納入特別預算其實就不會受到審查這是特別預算比較特別的地方可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切或者甚至是有交流的如果是有這樣的背景我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料"},{"start":489.611,"end":518.491,"text":"因為你們包括在內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了我們所有國家整體海疆的安全如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合這個應該要調查清楚這是我們要提出來的今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明你們還是要調查這個部分請院長跟部長下去以後如果做了調查提供書面報告給本席還有我們立法院好不好"},{"start":519.399,"end":524.823,"text":"因為我也沒辦法委員這樣子我想我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的來說明但我想我們一定會詳細的調查"},{"start":549.199,"end":575.118,"text":"用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍因為這個是我們很重要的而且他是有機敏性的嘛那我們就等待我們的調查結果好不好另外在這裡我們也要請教就是空軍花了1400多億把現役的141架F16AB升級到F16V的標準那也以近2500億特別預算構置了66架的F16V"},{"start":576.519,"end":600.274,"text":"台灣其實會變成擁有200餘架F16型戰鬥機我們在亞太地區其實是最大的戰機使用國當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化在地化並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體的體系所以"},{"start":600.914,"end":629.416,"text":"也希望帶動民間的航太產業在2019年的時候在行政院長經濟部還有國防部的官員見證底下其實洛克希德馬丁跟漢翔有簽署協議書當時是推動成立F16戰機的亞太地區維修中心那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作還有和美方在商談當中那漢翔的F16維修中心在2020年成立"},{"start":630.157,"end":642.025,"text":"在那時候在招商會當中也吸引了110家的廠商參加而且說有69家廠商表達有能力有意願來加入航太國家隊"},{"start":643.561,"end":672.376,"text":"未來整體產業效益上看兩千億元2020到現在已經過了五年到目前為止其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益我們在2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會那時候透露已經有超過百項F16系統的零件可以在台灣就地維修可是我們在現在看到整個"},{"start":674.396,"end":698.145,"text":"審計部他最新公布的決算報告裡面他在查核F16戰機維修中心推動的情形他指出有三點器材裝備維修項目缺乏法源依據這是第一個第二個F16戰機它的維修中心建置的它的能量品項尚未完成認證程序"},{"start":699.125,"end":708.987,"text":"第三到去年年底空軍司令部他統計影響F16型戰機妥善率前30項的這些相關的零附件"},{"start":710.393,"end":734.705,"text":"由F16維修中心有維修能量的只有兩個品項我們有30個這樣子一個重要的維持妥善率的這個品項維修中心只能做兩項也就是說如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡院長跟部長你們認為如果在戰爭的時候會有原廠的技師來到台灣幫我們維修嗎"},{"start":738.052,"end":764.361,"text":"委員報告我想第一個就法源的部分由空軍這個認證這個部分我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國安部委託法人團體從事研發產自維修作業要點來辦理然後我們把這個已經頒證的品項還有含未來規劃的這個頒證的這個品項我們都納入國安部的產核匯報來認證來符合這個相關的法規規定這是第一點"},{"start":765.121,"end":777.167,"text":"第二點這個品項的部分我們現在從109年漢祥成立F16維修中心到現在是完成了372項能量的籌建制"},{"start":778.436,"end":804.199,"text":"所以將這個器材修復的時間送到國外維修平均要原來要457天現在縮短到200天內所以還是有能夠提升但是剛剛委員提到關鍵的品項那我必須坦誠的說這些關鍵的品項跟這個落馬這邊的談並不是那麼的容易這一點確實是事實也就是說他對於他關鍵"},{"start":805.52,"end":819.033,"text":"一個品項的一個釋出因為時間的關係我先提出來我們講到的關鍵的品項我們現在在這裡要提出來說我們跟落馬談判好像沒有那麼順利沒有那麼容易"},{"start":820.094,"end":841.82,"text":"不應該的因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F16型戰機而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣子的一個MOU跟他簽署了這樣的協議而且我們付出了非常高額的我們的公合點數我們的公合點數有一億多點包括我們的鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案這兩個加起來這都是真金白銀換來的"},{"start":847.381,"end":868.664,"text":"我們花的金額我們買F16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額的預算去提供給他們可是在後續他應該給我們我們剛剛說的攻核點數其實是他很多的技術跟其他的相關的這些零附件的有一些有力的或相關的訓練其實是應該要提供給我們的"},{"start":869.565,"end":887.534,"text":"我們付出了那麼多的美元點可是他通通沒有給我們那是我們失職我們沒有辦法對美方要求當我們在說美方對我們多好多好的時候我們付出那麼多卻沒有辦法得到這對我們非常非常的不公平部長在這裡我們還是要求這不是沒有辦法跟他談判他本來就應該要給我們因為我們有付錢我們還有付出我們的美元點而且很重要的韓國在1990年代依據koreafly"},{"start":899,"end":920.737,"text":"Fighter Program他取得授權的生產線他在1990年他沒有多少架他在1994年到2004年期間他國內就可以裝配製造140架KF16也就是F16CD韓國已經可以維修甚至可以製造"},{"start":921.457,"end":948.663,"text":"因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系後續還自行推動中售期的升級這是韓國做到的他是1994到2004就做到了我們花了大筆的預算我們付出了那麼多的美元點我們應該強烈要求美方甚至洛克希德馬丁公司他就必須要給我們這樣子的能量否則在暫時我們根本沒有辦法運用尤其是我們的關鍵的這些零組件"},{"start":950.647,"end":970.372,"text":"我想第一點就是說即使是韓國就我所知也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地那第二個我們當然會持續向落馬爭取這個原廠能量而且也要向美國政府來請求資質計轉的授權因為這個跟委員剛剛所提到任性是有關係我們會持續來爭取"},{"start":971.426,"end":999.755,"text":"這個部分我們希望可以很快因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心你既然要成立亞太維修中心表示你必須要有這樣能量你必須要有這樣技術更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件當你都沒有的時候你告訴我們全體的人民說我們要花這麼多錢我們要買這麼多的F16戰機然後我們可以自己維修到現在還是不行甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們第一架都還沒有到台灣所以我們希望據理力爭我們不是只有一直付出這樣會讓人家覺得"},{"start":1001.055,"end":1019.483,"text":"每次都說我們是盤子的原因就是這樣所以在這裡我們還是要求我們行政院還有我們國防部應該要具體力爭而且可以競速可以達到這樣子的一個標準好不好那接下來我們也有很多的預算投入的重心接下來就是無人機了"},{"start":1020.123,"end":1042.923,"text":"政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心我們比較擔心我們每次喊出來的都後來變成口號因為我們提到說2030年產值要達到400億台幣我們光是看各部會在無人機領域的直接跟間接的預算未來5年至少會上看600億以上對不對"},{"start":1044.622,"end":1057.435,"text":"我們的支出我們要買無人機什麼這些初步看起來搞不好還更高我想就國安部的部分因為無人機的統籌計畫這個是經濟部在負責我們國安部的部分就"},{"start":1059.304,"end":1088.53,"text":"我們有兩大一個政治目標也就是說第一個我們要讓這個在地的生產能量能夠提升這樣子的話我們才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性那第二個就是說要這樣子的一個提升才能夠產生一定的這個產業規模那這樣才能夠支撐這個產業的發展那國防部作為可能無人機最大的一個需求者我們會盡量的跟產業來一起協同合作然後呢引跟進這個整個國際上面的一個"},{"start":1089.37,"end":1104,"text":"技術的創新的角度部長 院長我們樂見台灣其實在尤其無人機無人載台載具其實它是未來的一個重心發展的一個方向我們也樂見台灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步"},{"start":1104.36,"end":1118.092,"text":"而且是有舉足輕重的地位就跟我們的半導體一樣可是我們現在看起來我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣因為什麼原因我剛剛提到說我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億的台幣可是我們至少比如說我們也花了上百億要規劃一個園區"},{"start":1127.039,"end":1144.323,"text":"可能製造啊或者像跟無人機的產業園區還包括對外的採購還有包括對內的採購無人機的這樣子的一個花費至少有600億以上我初估啦可能還一定後續會更高可是你國家花600億換來產值400億的"},{"start":1148.985,"end":1167.594,"text":"這個產業 也就是說產業總值是低於政府的投入那是一年啦 或是一段時間 還會一直增加的你們是提到2030年啦對 那會往後一直在增加可是你2030年你的產值是400億 第一年要怎麼創造400億第一年400億是什麼時候算400億"},{"start":1171.716,"end":1190.004,"text":"什麼時候算400億?你是賣給誰?賣給國防部?賣給內政部?賣給我們自己國家?我們可以出口嗎?現在我們的核心零件,我們最大的問題,我們希望大家可以靜下來。"},{"start":1191.044,"end":1210.778,"text":"去思考我們的無人機產業怎麼發展我們不要當代工你如果當代工你就沒有辦法做到這樣因為無人機的產業無人機所有相關的產業它不是非常高的門檻很多其他國家都可以做不是只有台灣可以做我們台灣目前我們的核心零件比如說抗干擾導航"},{"start":1212.859,"end":1216.904,"text":"加密資料鏈還有我們EOIR光電模組還有我們的馬達跟推進系統等等其實多仰賴進口如果我們這些關鍵的技術還有我們出口沒有辦法獲得相關的這樣的一個可能一個"},{"start":1231.48,"end":1254.592,"text":"其實你要創造這樣的產值不可能你甚至就是用國家的錢在帶動我們自己的產業而已這是我們擔心的我們在這裡先提醒因為你未來其實正要起步所以我們在這裡先提醒但是我是向委員報告已經有廠商已經拿到國外的訂單這是事實你可以拿到多少訂單你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機"},{"start":1256.673,"end":1276.554,"text":"你的比例如果你要這樣算的話你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單是什麼樣的訂單有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌人家更高的價格是賣給其他國家甚至賣回給台灣這就已經不是我們的產值這是我先提醒"},{"start":1277.134,"end":1294.629,"text":"這是我先提醒的我們未來還有時間我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況無人機產業或者無人載具既然是我們國家重大的發展方向我們一步一步把我們的限貨權國防航太產他們波蘭還有中東歐國家來這邊下單的"},{"start":1297.851,"end":1303.156,"text":"他們下多少單?下多少單?下多少單?將近八千億美金八千萬美金是多少?"},{"start":1314.306,"end":1340.053,"text":"三億多 我們要投入六百多億啊我們現在講的 你在這裡換算是沒有你的訂單我們不是沒有辦法賣我說的是你要有競爭力 如果你要我們跟美國買多少美國很多的景銷其實到後來他們還是買大疆我們在這裡不是要討論你我們現在國內賣出多少"},{"start":1341.733,"end":1370.572,"text":"我們要建立飛鴻供應鏈讓無人機的自主的能量的可能 建立完全自主能量的可能性顯然的 您剛剛質疑這個F16我們的TOM2 F16類似這樣的一個發動機就是說一個高性能戰機的發動機的自主能量的一個能夠產生確實是有困難 這個我們必須要承認但是無人機需要的馬達 電池等等我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟的一個規模這個動能自然就會起來 我們有這個機會"},{"start":1375.015,"end":1398.453,"text":"我剛剛念了幾個核心的零件目前我們台灣是欠缺就是我們的量能其實還是不足的我們希望我們可以趕快就是如果我們要發展你當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位我剛剛是提醒如果後續我們在五年後再看看現在的樣子就跟我們剛剛提到說F16"},{"start":1399.954,"end":1418.614,"text":"戰機的情況是一樣的所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講我們F16今天無人機也是一樣我們不是我們投入很多可是我們創造的價值或者產值是很少那我覺得這可能就不值得這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分那接下來"},{"start":1419.946,"end":1446.328,"text":"我可不可以講一下因為我們現在最重要的無人機它是要把我們的能量可以製造的能量先build up起來因為我們現在說老實話沒有那麼大量的需求我們不像波蘭像中東或國家他們現在就是很大量的需求他們需要很大的我們跟他合作我不曉得我們希望不要哪一天我們需要的時候那個能量我們很快的可以build up起來因為廠商"},{"start":1447.529,"end":1456.59,"text":"也有很多的大廠他願意加入這個行列只是說因為你現在沒有那個量所以他沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去"},{"start":1457.555,"end":1480.729,"text":"我們要在這裡提醒的是因為其他國家也可以做那如果我們要做應該要怎麼做就是把我們現在還不足的而且我剛剛講的那四大的能量是非常重要的就像我們的國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際它就是因為它最重要的引擎它沒有辦法自己做我們可以說有好的通訊軟體我們好的飛控軟體"},{"start":1483.07,"end":1505.245,"text":"黑空軟體好的通訊模組我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業在這一塊那只要這些大廠願意投入那一定的經濟規模上來我覺得當很多廠商跟你報當很多廠商報喜不報憂或者他只講好的時候那是我們應該要可能要再審慎的去做一個通盤的考量因為身為政府"},{"start":1506.306,"end":1518.42,"text":"身為政府你看的是全面性的而不是單一的來源或者我們自己付出的很多然後獲得的很少這是我們現在今天要特別提到的吳仁基產業我們起步並不是最快但因為這樣子我們有更多學習的機會可以快速的成長"},{"start":1524.326,"end":1542.159,"text":"第二個 民主供應鏈 台灣絕對有它的重要性第三個 我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易哪一個國家需要跟我們合作我想我們可以另一個案再跟委員報告這裡還是讓我們說 只做原則性的回覆 謝謝因為我剛剛講的 我有提到一個重點就是我們不要只是代工"},{"start":1543.159,"end":1562.722,"text":"這個部分可能未來如果在這個面向上面我們希望其實我們是可以按部就班然後可以做出我們自己的一個相關的一個能量這是我們今天特別提的那另外一點時間就是我們現在大家還是很關切它也還沒有落幕就是"},{"start":1563.283,"end":1585.596,"text":"美國跟台灣其實我們關稅的問題美國對台有一個重大協議我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼表面上看起來好像利多可是事實上我們現在顯然我們是依附的這個狀況比較明顯那就這個部分我們希望在後續因為我們到現在還沒有一個很明確的"},{"start":1586.296,"end":1610.569,"text":"得到一個相關的訊息因為我們看到台積電過去了現在甚至整個生態系大家覺得非常錯愕之前剛開始台積電過去投資的時候政府是很大聲的告訴我們所有人民說我們所有其他產業產業鏈或跟供應鏈是不會過去的他還是會留在台灣現在不是現在是整個全部都也要到"},{"start":1611.149,"end":1639.177,"text":"到美國去所以這個對我們的影響非常大另外還有我們的像農業的採購像我們的國防的採購還有我們國防預算要達到幾趴其實都是順應美國的要求另外還有我們對美的投資所以在這個部分我們看所有我們的條件全部都限縮在我們完全沒有自主權我們也沒有選擇權我們是配合美方的"},{"start":1639.797,"end":1655.972,"text":"這個要跟委員說明任何對美的投資這個大廠他必須要耕留台灣 立足台灣這個是要求的最優先的同時一樣的他的產業供應鏈他自然有他產業的佈局他有需要那這些供應鏈如果"},{"start":1656.713,"end":1672.055,"text":"避免降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成他有可能這樣考慮但還是一樣要跟流台灣以台灣作為基礎才能做嘗試那目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的這個階段"},{"start":1674.096,"end":1696.704,"text":"現在院長我們當然是希望像您說的這樣子可是我們現在就我們現在大家感受到的或者包括全世界各國其實也一樣感受不是只有台灣可是台灣是面臨更嚴峻的一個狀況因為我們沒有辦法距離力爭我們甚至不敢跟美國談我不知道是不是不敢跟他談我們一直我們收到的我們"},{"start":1697.444,"end":1724.996,"text":"可能受到的或者我們付出的是比其他國家還要多我們現在來看我們其實台灣是極度的單邊倚靠我們像美方這兩年它在推動的這個經貿政策它不再是一個自由貿易其實它比較像是供應鏈的主權化意思就是以安全為名它重構全球供應鏈的主導權根本上就是讓盟國在技術上跟生產上都是臣服於美國"},{"start":1726.116,"end":1745.106,"text":"這個部分其實我們已經發現到我們希望其實我們可以參考其他像其他的國家比如說像印度印度他雖然買俄國的石油可是他還是參與印太而且美國也讓步了還跟他技術合作另外還有就是巴基斯坦他有像"},{"start":1747.807,"end":1773.323,"text":"中國靠攏可是美國還是恢復他的軍事援助而且他也有獲得債務的減免另外還有土耳其他北約他是內外兼容可是他還是繼續留在北約而且他已經換得了像李海的談判角色還有就是東協各國他們多邊投資的協定他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局"},{"start":1773.903,"end":1789.135,"text":"像這些國家其實他們在談判的過程當中其實他們都有第二條路我們台灣現在可能比較侷限的或者我們現在面臨最大的問題我們現在把自己侷限在一個框架裡面我們只有一條路"},{"start":1790.015,"end":1804.027,"text":"當美國做調整或改變的時候甚至還有人提到他們有很多的專家學者或甚至有提過我們台灣可能會被犧牲或出賣的時候我們沒有第二個選擇這是我們應該要正式的問題"},{"start":1807.069,"end":1825.741,"text":"我們軍事的採購有國家國防的需求我們的產業的採購有產業各方面製造的需求我們的投資也有產業自主佈局全球的需求農業的採購也有我們進口跟我們消費習慣跟其他畜牧業的需求我們都用這樣的需求做主發點院長 我們互相好 謝謝馬文先生"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":311,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（15時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長午安。我們今天有幾個議題可能要就教院長，也要跟院長來做探討，像這一次行政院提出了5,700億的韌性特別預算，其中國防的部分大概占了一千一百三十幾億，就這個部分，因為在審查相關所屬單位預算的時候，發現有一些真的是浮濫或者編列不太恰當的情形，甚至像女廁裡面還有小便斗這樣的工項，這其實都是複製、貼上，不曉得是太便宜行事還是有其他的狀況，可是它就是發生了。","近日又有媒體報導海軍大氣海洋局的上校局長，在執行國安韌性特別預算案的過程當中，其實也發生非常多離譜的行徑，在海軍司令部所屬的單位當中，大氣海洋局只是一個兩百多人的專業幕僚單位，他們以往負責的是氣象、海圖跟水文資料等等的預報還有蒐整、印製等業務，可是這位局長上任以後，不但擴大職權成立作戰情報中心，更想在兩年之內，執行6個案子，共21億，其中的三個案子共十七億多，裡面有一個是要重新興建一棟三層樓高且具備防護電磁脈衝能力的大樓，還有在既有的作業基礎底下要擴建五大作業中心，除了購置一些相關的軟硬體以外，還有包含專案開發的軟體，這種案件兩年真的可以執行完畢嗎？其實在審查過程當中，我也有提出刪減這個部分，可是因為國防部一直強調這個非常重要，我們不曉得這個大氣海洋局為什麼需要防護電磁脈衝這樣的能力，蓋這個大樓的經費高達十七億多，可是現在我們才看到它到底是不是有需要，部長也上來了，就這個部分是不是可以簡單的回應、說明一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會請部長回答，我先跟委員表達，我們對於現任的國軍弟兄還有這種違規、違法的情形，我覺得國軍整個要加強對國家忠誠的再教育，而且我們要嚴格的管控，不准我們國軍還有這樣的行為，因為國人看在心裡是非常痛心，也對我們現在整體國家安全有極大的危害。至於在預算審查過程當中，我知道委員有提出一些意見，對其中一部分國防部也很虛心的接受，也進行檢討，這部分我們虛心的接受、檢討並自我改進，未來也希望委員繼續督促，但是對整個防衛韌性、整個國安韌性這方面的工作，我們還是要持續來進行。請部長來回答。"],["馬委員文君：關於這個部分，因為時間的關係，部長，我想我們不要在這裡討論細節，其實後來對這一筆預算我們有同意，我們並沒有刪減，可是現在突然又發生這個事情，如果有這樣子的狀況，在沒有辦法去遏止的情況之下，其實對這筆預算應該要去審慎的評估是不是要繼續執行。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["顧部長立雄：請委員給我30秒就好了。"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，這筆十七億多的預算是整建的部分，而且並沒有浮編的狀況，那我們後續會審慎的來管制這個預算，讓它不至於有任何被濫用的狀況。至於媒體所報導的這些事情像蒐集演訓機密資訊、擅改春節戰備輪值、私自讓中資背景公司入營、運送浮標入營未採保密安全措施、接受廠商招待餐敘等等，我們經過初步調查，而且審查了佐證資料，海軍回報是沒有這樣相關的情事，但是我還是要求他們要給我一份詳細的書面報告。至於預算的部分，我們一定會審慎來運用我們所獲得的預算。"],["馬委員文君：部長，在長官還在的情況之下，如果去裡面用問卷調查，我想沒有人敢寫啦！關於這個部分的客觀調查，後續你們看怎麼處理，不過在這裡要跟院長、部長說，這一件事情事實上並不像週刊所刊登的內容這麼單純，本席接獲民眾檢舉，林倉玉上校在邀請相關的設備商、營造商進行會勘、研討採購標案內容的過程當中，他曾經邀請特定人士參與研討，這個都有照片，甚至他在自己的社群網站上面都有po出來，這個非常的清楚，而且都可以用他的英文名字去查，甚至他跟我們六聯隊下轄的C-130運輸大隊其實關係也都非常密切，從他個人的社群媒體網站可以看得出他非常吃得開，可是他的人際關係如何是另外一回事。那這一位特定人士陳先生跟大陸地區相關學術單位是有交流的，而且在大陸的宜航航空學院、南通航運職業技術學院及上海宜航通用有限公司跟陳先生的關係，我們請國防部還有院長要一併調查，對於這樣的學術單位到底跟大氣海洋局交流了什麼，我們也要深入了解。為了讓官兵在沒有心理負擔的情況之下說明，其實應該要先將這個主官調離現職，才有辦法真的深入調查。就像部長非常的生氣，因為我們有用陸製的警監系統，有這樣的狀況，在我們所有監視器裡面都有陸製零件的時候，其實我們是不能接受的，一樣，這個大氣海洋局我們花了這麼高額，甚至還要用脈衝防護的方式來興建一棟大樓，可見它要做的是什麼，如果它是重要的，就一定要查清楚他的背景、相關資料等等，這個是不是應該要去做一個考量？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，這些相關的預算是作為整建，不是興建，這是第一個。第二個，剛剛委員所提到的週刊上面的這些報導，還有委員垂詢的這些事項，因為都涉及到相關的細節，我想也沒有時間在這邊一一的回復，但我們會有一個詳細的報告，當然海軍也要嚴查，嚴查之後，我們會跟社會做一個澈底說明。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我說的不是只有工程而已，我說的不是只有預算，因為它只要納入特別預算，其實就不會受到審查，這是特別預算比較特別的地方。可是我剛剛提到的是他跟陸方很多重要的學術單位關係密切，甚至是有交流的，如果有這樣的背景，我們是不是可以把這樣的水文資料，因為包括內政部海巡署其實都有相關的預算，那時候你們都說這個水文資料是為了國家整體海疆的安全，他如果有這樣子的背景是不是適合，這個應該要調查清楚，這是我們要提出來的。今天當然沒有辦法做詳細的說明，但是你們還是要調查，請院長跟部長下去以後，這個部分如果做了調查，請提供書面報告給本席，還有立法院，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，因為我們在今天這個場合沒辦法仔細的說明，但我們一定會詳細調查。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們沒有要你說明，沒關係，你調查清楚，我是希望你調查，因為我們把照片也呈現出來，他上面的英文名，你們也可以去查一下，他的背景資料其實是很清楚。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們還是要勿枉勿縱。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，針對這個事情的調查，國防部說不是事實……"],["馬委員文君：好，調查以後我們再來討論，沒有關係。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我要求國防部不放過任何的蛛絲馬跡，一定要用最高的標準來要求我們的國軍。"],["馬委員文君：因為這個對我們很重要，而且它是有機敏性的，我們就等待我們的調查結果，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，在這裡我也要請教，空軍花了一千四百多億把現役的141架F-16A/B升級到F-16V的標準，也以近2,500億特別預算購置了66架F-16V，臺灣其實會變成擁有兩百餘架F-16型戰鬥機，我們在亞太地區是最大的戰機使用國。當時蔡總統時代為了提高軍機自主維修的能量，曾經計畫落實武器裝備自主化、在地化，並且建立維修以及產製供應鏈的整體體系，也希望帶動民間的航太產業。2019年在行政院院長、經濟部還有國防部官員的見證底下，洛克希德馬丁與漢翔有簽署協議書，當時是推動成立F-16戰機的亞太地區維修中心，那時候宣稱已經有17個工業合作，還和美方在商談當中，漢翔的F-16維修中心在2020年成立，那時候在招商會當中，也吸引了110家廠商參加，而且有69家廠商表達有能力、有意願加入航太國家隊，未來整體產業效益上看2,000億元，2020年到現在已經過了5年，到目前為止，其實我們沒有看到這樣的效益。","2022年蔡總統還出席宣稱亞洲唯一授權後勤維修中心的成果發表會，那時候透露已經有超過百項F-16系統的零件可以在臺灣就地維修，可是我們現在看到審計部最新公布的決算報告，他在查核F-16戰機維修中心推動情形有指出三點，器材裝備、維修項目缺乏法源依據，這是第一個。第二個，F-16戰機維修中心建置的能量、品項尚未完成認證程序。第三個，到去年年底，空軍司令部統計影響F-16型戰機妥善率前30項的相關零附件，F-16維修中心有維修能量的只有2個品項。我們有30項維持妥善率的重要品項，維修中心只能做2項，也就是說，如果連妥善率前30項關鍵器材都沒有辦法掌握在自己手裡，院長跟部長，你們認為如果在戰爭的時候，會有原廠的技師來到臺灣幫我們維修嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，第一個就法源的部分，由空軍認證的部分，我們在今年的5月28號已經函請空軍依照國防部委託法人團體從事研發產製維修作業要點來辦理，我們把已經頒認的品項，還有含未來規劃頒認的品項，我們都納入國防部的產合會報來認證，以符合相關的法規規定，這是第一點。第二點，在品項的部分，我們從109年漢翔成立F-16維修中心到現在，是完成了372項能量的籌建制，所以將器材送到國外維修的修復時間，原來平均要457天，現在縮短到兩百天內，所以還是有能夠提升……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我想你沒有聽清楚我說的……"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是剛剛委員提到的是關鍵品項。"],["馬委員文君：對、對！"],["顧部長立雄：我必須坦誠地說，這些關鍵的品項跟洛馬這邊來談，並不是那麼容易，這一點確實是事實，也就是說，他對於關鍵品項部分的釋出，這個叫作……"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為時間的關係，我先提出來，我們講到了關鍵的品項，現在在這裡要提出來討論，我們跟洛馬談判好像沒有那麼順利、沒有那麼容易，這是不應該的！因為我們擁有全亞太地區最多的F-16型戰機，而且當時我們已經跟他簽署了這樣的MOU、跟他簽署了這樣的協議，而且我們付出了非常高額的工合點數，我們的工合點數有一億多點，包括鳳展專案跟鳳翔專案，這兩個加起來，這些都是真金白銀換來的，我們花的金額、我們買F-16戰機或者我們的維修也是高額預算去提供給他們，可是在後續他應該給我們的……我們剛剛說的工合點數，其實他很多的技術跟其他相關的零附件及一些有利的或相關的訓練是應該要提供給我們，我們付出了那麼多的美元點，可是他通通沒有給我們，那是我們失職。我們沒有辦法對美方要求，當我們在說美方對我們多好、多好的時候，我們付出那麼多，卻沒有辦法得到這些，這對我們非常非常地不公平！","部長，在這裡我們還是要求，這不是沒有辦法跟他談判，他本來就應該要給我們，因為我們有付錢，我們還有付出我們的美元點，而且很重要的是韓國在1990年代依據Korean Fighter Program取得授權的生產線，在1990年時他們沒有多少架欸！在1994年到2004年期間，其國內就可以裝配製造140架KF-16，也就是F-16C/D，韓國已經可以維修，甚至可以製造，因此形成製造中心加後勤維修的完整體系，後續還自行推動中壽期的升級。這是韓國做到的，他在1994年到2004年就做到了，我們花了大筆的預算、付出了那麼多的美元點，我們應該強烈要求美方，甚至洛克希德馬丁公司就必須要給我們這樣子的能量，否則在戰時，我們根本沒有辦法運用，尤其是這些關鍵的零組件。"],["顧部長立雄：第一點，就我所知，即使是韓國，也沒有辦法完全爭取到這些關鍵性品項在地。第二個，我們當然會持續向洛馬爭取原廠能量，而且也要向美國政府請求支持技轉的授權，因為這跟委員剛剛所提到的韌性是有關係的，我們會持續來爭取。"],["馬委員文君：我們希望這個部分可以很快達到，因為那時候跟我們說亞太維修中心，既然你要成立亞太維修中心，表示你必須要有這樣的能量，你必須要有這樣技術，更需要有這樣的關鍵零組件；當你都沒有的時候，你告訴全體人民我們要花這麼多錢、我們要買這麼多的F-16戰機，然後我們可以自己維修，但到現在還是不行，甚至連戰機都還沒有給我們，第一架都還沒有到臺灣。所以我們希望據理力爭，我們不是只有一直付出，這樣會讓人家覺得每次都說我們是「盤子」的原因就是這樣。所以在這裡，我們還是要求行政院及國防部應該要據理力爭，而且可以儘速達到這樣的標準，好不好？","我們也有很多預算投入的重心，接下來就是無人機了，政府其實也喊出無人機民主供應鏈的亞洲中心，我們比較擔心的是，我們每次喊出來的後來都變成口號，因為我們提到2030年產值要達到400億臺幣，我們光是看各部會在無人機領域直接跟間接的預算，未來5年至少會上看600億以上，對不對？我們的支出、要買無人機什麼的這些，初步看起來搞不好還更高。"],["顧部長立雄：無人機的統籌計畫是由經濟部負責，而國防部的部分，我們有兩大政策目標，第一個，我們要讓在地生產的能量能夠提升，這樣子才能夠維持我們的作戰韌性。第二個，要有這樣子的提升，才能夠產生一定的產業規模，這樣才能夠支撐產業的發展。國防部作為可能無人機最大的需求者，我們會儘量跟產業一起協同合作，以跟進整個國際上面的技術創新腳步。"],["馬委員文君：部長、院長，尤其在無人機、無人載台、載具的部分，其實它是未來一個重心發展的方向，我們也樂見，臺灣在這個部分其實是可以跟上腳步的，而且是有舉足輕重的地位，就跟我們的半導體一樣，可是現在看起來，我們似乎沒有辦法做到這樣，是因為什麼原因？我剛剛提到我們自己宣稱2030年要達到產值400億臺幣，可是比如我們花了上百億規劃一個園區可能要製造或者無人機的產業園區，還包括對外的採購，也包括對內的採購，我粗估無人機這樣子的花費至少有600億以上，後續一定會更高。可是國家花600億換來產值400億的產業，也就是產業總值是低於政府投入，臺灣目前無人機……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是一年。"],["龔部長明鑫：那是一……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是一年或是一段時間，才會一直持續增加。"],["馬委員文君：沒有，你們是提到2030年。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，會往後一直再增加，不會就停在這裡。"],["馬委員文君：可是2030年的產值是400億，第一年要怎麼創造400億？"],["龔部長明鑫：第一年400億……"],["馬委員文君：第一年400億是什麼時候……"],["龔部長明鑫：隔年會比400億還要一直更多……"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候算400億？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是……"],["馬委員文君：什麼時候算400億？"],["龔部長明鑫：2030年。"],["馬委員文君：你們是賣給誰？賣給國防部、賣給內政部、賣給我們自己國家？"],["龔部長明鑫：國防部跟內政部只有一部分，出口部分我們已經有一些訂單了，包括中東歐……"],["馬委員文君：我們可以出口嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以啊！已經有了。"],["馬委員文君：現在核心零件……我們最大的問題，我們希望大家可以靜下來去思考無人機產業怎麼發展，我們不要當代工，如果當代工，就沒有辦法做到這樣，因為無人機所有相關的產業不是非常高的門檻，很多其他國家都可以做，不是只有臺灣可以做，臺灣目前的核心零件，比如抗干擾導航、加密資料鏈、EO/IR光電模組、馬達及推進系統等等，其實多仰賴進口，如果這些關鍵技術及出口沒有辦法獲得相關管道的時候，其實要創造這樣的產值是不可能的，甚至只是用國家的錢在帶動自己的產業而已，這是我們所擔心的，我們在這裡先提醒。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["馬委員文君：因為未來正要起步，所以我們在這裡先提醒。"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我向委員報告，已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單，這是事實。"],["馬委員文君：可以拿到多少訂單？你知道我們要跟國外買多少無人機？你的比例……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，現在至少……"],["馬委員文君：對啊！如果要這樣算的話，你說已經有廠商拿到國外的訂單……"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對、對。"],["馬委員文君：是什麼樣的訂單？有些訂單甚至是國內製造以後到國外貼牌，人家以更高的價格賣給其他國家，甚至賣回給臺灣，這就已經不是我們的產值……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是、不是、不是，這是上次……"],["馬委員文君：這是我先提醒的，我們未來還有時間，我今天先提醒未來可能發生的狀況，無人機產業或無人載具既然是國家重大的發展方向，我們一步一步把我們目前……"],["龔部長明鑫：那是在國防航太展時，波蘭及中東歐國家來這邊下單的。"],["馬委員文君：他們下多少單？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告……"],["馬委員文君：下多少單？"],["龔部長明鑫：波蘭……"],["馬委員文君：下多少單？"],["龔部長明鑫：將近8,000億美金。"],["馬委員文君：8,000億美金？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，是8,000萬美金，sorry。"],["馬委員文君：8,000萬美金是多少？"],["龔部長明鑫：三億多吧！"],["馬委員文君：三億多？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["馬委員文君：但我們要投入六百多億啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有啦，總是要有開始嘛！"],["馬委員文君：我們現在講的，你在這裡換算……你的訂單，我們不是沒有辦法賣，我說的是要有競爭力，如果你要……"],["龔部長明鑫：另外也有廠商拿到美國的，它是警消用，雖然不是……"],["馬委員文君：我們跟美國買多少？美國很多的警消，其實到後來他們還是買大疆，我們在這裡不是要討論現在國內賣出多少，剛剛……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，他們也是要去紅的。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我們要建立非紅供應鏈……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，他們也是要去紅的。"],["顧部長立雄：讓無人機建立完全自主能量的可能性，顯然您剛剛質疑F-16，我們的痛處就在F-16類似這樣的一個發動機，能夠產生高性能戰機發動機的自主能量，這個確實是有困難，我們必須要承認。但是無人機需要的馬達、電池等等，我覺得我們要創造一個足夠的經濟規模，動能自然就會起來，我們有這個機會，我們應該有這個機會在無人機領域。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我剛剛唸了幾個核心的零件，目前我們臺灣量能其實還是不足的，希望可以趕快，如果我們要發展，當然就是要隨著這樣的腳步到位。我剛剛是提醒，如果後續五年後我們再看看現在的樣子，就跟剛剛提到F-16戰機的情況是一樣的，所以部長其實已經知道我剛剛為什麼先講F-16。今天無人機也是一樣，我們投入很多，可是我們創造的價值或者產值很少，我覺得這個可能就不值得，這是我們今天特別要提出來的部分。接下來……"],["龔部長明鑫：委員，我可不可以講一下，因為我們現在最重要的無人機，它是要把我們的能量、可以製造的能量先build up起來，老實說因為現在沒有那麼大量的需求，我們不像波蘭或像中東歐國家，他們現在就是很大量的需求，他們需要很大的，我們跟他合作。我不曉得，但我們希望不要，或許哪一天我們需要的時候，那個能量我們很快的可以build up起來，因為廠商……也有很多的大廠願意加入這個行列，只是說因為現在沒有那個量，所以它沒有辦法大量的投入生產的資源下去。"],["馬委員文君：我們要在這裡提醒的是，因為其他國家也可以做，如果我們要做應該要怎麼做，就是把現在還不足的……而且我剛剛講的那四大能量……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我了解。"],["馬委員文君：是非常重要的，就像我們國內的汽車為什麼沒有辦法打入整個國際……"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我們現在一直在做。"],["馬委員文君：就是因為它最重要的引擎，他沒有辦法自己做。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們可以有好的飛控軟體，好的通訊模組，我想這個是我們有機會看得到無人機產業的這一塊，只要這些大廠願意投入，有一定的經濟規模上來，我覺得是看得到完全自製的可能性。"],["馬委員文君：當很多廠商跟你報喜不報憂，或者它只講好的時候，我們應該要審慎的去做通盤的考量，因為身為政府，你看的是全面性的，而不是單一的來源，或者我們自己付出的很多，然後獲得的很少，這是我們今天要特別提到的。"],["卓院長榮泰：三點跟委員報告，無人機產業，我們起步並不是最快，但因為這樣子，我們有更多學習的機會，可以快速的成長；第二個，民主供應鏈，臺灣絕對有它的重要性；第三個，我們跟誰做了多少的買賣交易，哪一個國家需要跟我們合作，我想我們可以另案再跟委員報告，這裡還是讓我們只做這原則性的回復，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：好。我剛剛講的，我有提到一個重點，我們不要只是代工……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會、不會。"],["馬委員文君：可能未來在這個面向上面，我們希望其實是可以按部就班，做出自己相關的一個能量，這是我們今天特別提的。","另外一點時間，大家現在還是很關切，它也還沒有落幕，就是美國對臺灣關稅的問題，美國對臺有一個重大協議，我們不知道它的真相到底是什麼，表面上看起來好像利多，可是事實上，顯然現在我們是依附的狀況比較明顯。就這個部分，我們希望後續……因為我們到現在還沒有很明確的得到相關的訊息，我們看到台積電過去了，現在甚至整個生態系，大家覺得非常錯愕。之前剛開始台積電要過去投資的時候，政府是很大聲的告訴所有人民，我們所有其他的產業鏈跟供應鏈是不會過去的，還是會留在臺灣，但現在不是，現在是全部也要到美國去，所以這個對我們的影響非常大。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，這個必須要說明。"],["馬委員文君：另外，還有我們的農業採購、國防採購，還有國防預算要達到幾個百分比其實都是順應美國的要求。此外，我們對美的投資，在這個部分看到我們所有的條件全部都限縮，我們完全沒有自主權，也沒有選擇權，我們是配合美方的要求在做……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是、不是。"],["卓院長榮泰：這要跟委員說明，任何對美的投資，大廠必須要根留臺灣、立足臺灣，這個是最優先的要求，同時他們的產業供應鏈自然有其產業布局，他若有需要，對於這些供應鏈，如果要降低外來的競爭對手在當地形成，他們有可能這樣考慮，但還是一樣要根留臺灣，以臺灣作為基礎才能做嘗試。目前投資美國的大廠都沒有那個量，都還談不到供應鏈整個移轉的階段。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們當然希望像您說的這樣子，可是就我們現在感受到的，包括全世界各國其實也有一樣的感受，不是只有臺灣，可是臺灣是面臨更嚴峻的狀況，因為我們沒有辦法據理力爭，我們甚至不敢跟美國談，我不知道是不是不敢跟他們談……"],["卓院長榮泰：有，我們一直在談啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們一直在談。"],["馬委員文君：可能我們受到的……或者我們付出的比其他國家還要多。現在來看，其實臺灣是極度的單邊倚靠，像美方這兩年在推動的經貿政策，他們不再是一個自由貿易，其實他們比較像是供應鏈的主權化，意思就是以安全為名，重構全球供應鏈的主導權，從根本上讓盟國在技術跟生產都臣服於美國，這部分其實我們已經發現到，我們可以參考其他的國家，比如說像印度，印度雖然買俄國的石油，可是他們還是參與印太，而且美國也讓步了，還跟他們技術合作；另外還有巴基斯坦……"],["龔部長明鑫：臺灣石油可能就不買了。"],["馬委員文君：他們向中國靠攏，可是美國還是恢復其軍事援助，而且他們也獲得債務的減免；還有土耳其，北約是內外兼容，可是他們還是繼續留在北約，而且他們已經換得了黑海的談判角色；還有東協各國多邊投資的協定，他們形成誰也不會得罪誰的格局。像這些國家，他們在談判的過程當中，其實他們都有第二條路，我們臺灣現在可能比較侷限，或者我們現在面臨最大的問題就是把自己侷限在一個框架裡面，我們只有一條路，當美國做調整或改變的時候，甚至還有人提到，有很多專家、學者提過，我們臺灣可能會被犧牲或出賣時，我們沒有第二個選擇，這是我們應該要正視的問題。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦，我們在民主供應鏈裡面站穩了很重要的角色。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們軍事採購有國家國防的需求，我們產業採購有產業各方面製造的需求，我們投資也有產業自主布局全球的需求，農業採購也有我們進口跟消費習慣、其他畜牧業的需求，我們都用這樣的需求出發。"],["馬委員文君：院長，我們互相檢視，希望臺灣越來越好、越來越安全。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。下面一位委員質詢結束之後，我們將會休息10分鐘。","接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164477","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164477","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f91b0e4700987b3c4ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d2f3ee4f7ce62287085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"15:01:59 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總體的員額在115年我們要再派補3000人那在派補3000人裡面我們已經派補了2600人明年就會開始派補嘛"},{"start":153.221,"end":179.647,"text":"請你們一定要去注意這個問題不要等到事件發生遺憾的時候才來發現人力不足這個是我們平常就要做的那除了鐵路警察人力以外有關於台鐵這個我們部長在這裡他非常了解過去我也多次請交通部來協助因為台北車站他是六鐵共購裡面還牽涉到台北市政府地下街有市場數有台北捷運公司常常需要台鐵需要跟台北市政府來進行協調"},{"start":181.207,"end":198.317,"text":"所以我要請這個交通部也要大力的來協助台鐵現在我們有災防聯合中心嘛治安也是聯合的重點請你們來協助台鐵跟這個地方政府多來協調我希望未來台北車站的治安維護我們可以來提升整體的量能可以嗎"},{"start":198.737,"end":212.967,"text":"好 我們來努力好 那這一個案件呢也引發了社會諸多的討論但我這裡要強調這一個個案從目前披露的資訊它跟街友是沒有任何的關聯的"},{"start":213.928,"end":231.755,"text":"它其實跟街友無關但是因為台北市確實是我們全國為了服務有列冊的街友人數最多的一個城市那其中台北市當中又以台北車站是街友聚集最多人數的一個熱點所以過去我在擔任市議員的期間"},{"start":232.375,"end":249.548,"text":"也多次也長期的跟我們台北市政府來關心有關於我們皆有安置皆有輔導皆有收容皆有的就業輔助等等相關的議題需要市政府地方政府要來協助那麼除了地方政府以外呢"},{"start":250.348,"end":272.165,"text":"我們的法律基礎也是很重要其實院長我們現在有關於皆有輔導的在法律層面的條文就只有一條而已就是社會救助法第17條當中有提到文字是這樣警察發現皆有要通報社會局一起處理但如何處理呢由地方政府自定"},{"start":273.106,"end":287.348,"text":"所以過去呢這個縣市地方議會有不同縣市議員跟我們反映因為沒有法源基礎沒有明定說地方政府輔助皆有的法定義務是什麼所以呢其實議會要監督政府常常我們也是狗吠火車"},{"start":288.567,"end":309.845,"text":"就是說這個積極的地方政府他要做例如說過去台中市自己就訂定了自治條例他有辦法做但是不想做的地方政府你也沒辦法沒有法定義務那這個呢在我進立法院的第一個應該是第一第二個月團體就來跟我們討論當時希望中央可以來訂定無家者專法"},{"start":310.365,"end":331.635,"text":"我也找了衛福部來討論那當時我們知道衛福部也正在研擬社救法 修法的草案所以衛福部過去曾經主張就在社救法的修法當中併入無家者專章當時我們認為這個時程比較快但我們萬萬都沒有料到後來在野黨提出了才化法的修法"},{"start":332.595,"end":353.229,"text":"所以導致於社就法修法原先院長有一個這個心願我們也很支持就是希望我們政府對於弱勢的照顧能夠來擴大但是呢現在因為裁員的關係社就法他也需要更多的討論因為他牽涉到執行層面所以我的建議是說有關於無家者的輔導"},{"start":355.525,"end":372.599,"text":"讓地方政府有明定的法定義務我們是不是先來研擬無家者專訪讓無家者專訪先行衛福部有沒有辦法先來研擬這樣的方向呢謝謝委員特別關心到我們這個"},{"start":374.371,"end":403.479,"text":"無家者或者是皆有的這些福利跟權益確實如同委員提到我們在去年113年曾經預告了社會救助法的修法的草案當時候如同這個委員提到現行的這個社會救助法就一條條文是跟這個皆有相關那在我們的草案裡面有增加到五條包含定義包含這個這個中央地方應該要這個如何來協助資源如何挹注"},{"start":405.18,"end":418.087,"text":"從這個經濟安全從脫貧自利到這個社會投資有這樣的想法去規範但是確實預告之後也有很多的意見再加上社政法目前有預定要送立法院的時間嗎"},{"start":419.188,"end":440.603,"text":"因為意見很多我們還在溝通另外就是一個變數就是這個還在溝通也還有裁員的變數所以院長我希望因為我們在台北市那剛好萬華區跟中正區台北市皆有的集中的熱點都在我的選區當中所以我們長期的在協助民間也來"},{"start":441.403,"end":456.437,"text":"督促地方政府要來做皆有的輔導其實大量的需要安置的空間相關的輔助院長我們是不是可以來研擬無家者專法我們先行的來訂定我也會來提出草案那希望行政院可以來支持"},{"start":457.418,"end":472.763,"text":"因為委員出身台北市議會有地方議會來到國會殿堂更了解地方對這些問題的直接面第一面的衝擊那也謝謝剛剛提到這麼多我覺得還是要回歸到整個地方的執行面來看"},{"start":473.303,"end":492.105,"text":"那中央可以定一個方向大方向出來那剛剛提到我們因為現在在財化法的新法的制度底下中央的力量已經被削弱了很多所以如果讓地方能夠確實來執行中央可以有一個方向定出來但執行的過程還是要靠地方政府來完成的"},{"start":492.489,"end":510.67,"text":"沒有錯 所以大的方向我認為我們先來訂定專法另外就是這個案件它是次案事件不要把它跟街友的案是不安置在一起談獨立事件我們大家也知道但是街友的輔助這個是進步的國家我們要一起來支持台北車站它絕對是一個重要的重大的關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":513.372,"end":537.725,"text":"這個無家者專訪後續了我就持續來跟你們討論接下來要跟院長關心的是院長也很關心的10月10號新上路三天的教師身心調試假大家都非常期待因為我們既有現行的就是教師有七天的試假照理說七天的試假加上三天的身心調試假七加三應該等於十"},{"start":538.405,"end":566.573,"text":"但是我們現在的算法因為你併入市價你們的7加3還是等於7只是他請假的要件比較簡化所以啦你把市價跟身心調市價併價計算我認為實質上等於教師有三天假被你們偷走了那所以全教總的批評非常的激烈喔我來跟這個院長分享全教總他說呢就是第一個你這個換湯不換藥因為教師的假期總額沒增加嘛"},{"start":568.166,"end":581.964,"text":"大家期待已久都聽說有新的三天升薪條市價以為總額會增加就趕快因為你病入市價計算第二個我本來就有七天的市價你現在把我併進來我既有市價其實被你壓縮了第三個"},{"start":583.326,"end":599.998,"text":"新增身心調適價的這個價別就是認為身心調適是一個符合也是我們賴清東總統的政見健康台灣身心健康的需求你們把身心調適併入市價請問現在有身心調適需求是很有事嗎"},{"start":600.999,"end":616.323,"text":"是有事嗎你沒有去正面的去肯定他他本來就是一個理由所以我還是希望其實部長也有很多人跟你有過討論我還是希望我們可以來研擬這個身心調適價應該要還給教師"},{"start":622.746,"end":640.858,"text":"我們這個制度先讓他上路是考慮到真正的有需求但是我們要考慮到整個所有的身份別的人他的這個公平性跟平衡性還要考慮到產業界跟這個放假日數的增加與否所以我們先用這樣的方式簡化他請假請試假的"},{"start":642.74,"end":664.881,"text":"請併假的這個原因他不用去舉很多的例子先這樣來上路上路之後一定會引起社會的重視正面的反應很好很多我們就可以進一步來推動沒有錯上路之後也要請教育部行政院持續來關切因為馬上第一天台中市就發生了有老師要請假地方教育局說你先把七天試假用完再說"},{"start":666.262,"end":680.167,"text":"這個沒有達到我們的初衷我知道教育部有關切所以滾動式來調整我還是希望朝向未來身心調適假三天還給教師這是應該的再來這個部長也很了解就曾經就在這個議場"},{"start":681.627,"end":704.162,"text":"不久之前部長曾經承諾說要來研擬去提升我們基層教師的終點費來也朝這個方向來研議為什麼因為現在呢新聞報導很多專題都有年輕人沒有人願意來當老師出現教師荒還呢同時呢還出現行政大逃亡"},{"start":705.373,"end":726.516,"text":"就是當教師線第一線的教學真的辛苦然後呢除了教學以外我們還要老師來兼做行政所以呢不只沒有人要當老師已經是老師了沒有人想要兼行政所以呢除了教師終點費要來提升這個方向我覺得要來研議以外呢我也認為導師費跟行政加給我們可以來研議調整"},{"start":728.359,"end":752.825,"text":"因為這兩個工作都是老師在教學以外我們額外賦予他的工作院長你覺得我們能不能夠來當基層教師的後盾來去研擬因為我剛講這個終點費這20年來我們的基本工資剛剛院長有提到重要的我們各個行業別大家應該要去相互的注意20年來基本工資調漲的幅度187倍而20年來教師終點費的條幅是多少"},{"start":758.43,"end":777.464,"text":"只有5%落後了我們一般社會勞工的37倍我們基層教師有這麼不值嗎教育部跟我們都有注意到這個重大的問題所以日前也有委員在這裡談過這樣的狀況我們也覺得這個不成比例的問題要趕快來解決"},{"start":778.334,"end":804.223,"text":"我記得那天教育部他有一個說法部長我要拜託你了我們討論過很多次我們來想看到問題就要解決問題也許沒有辦法一觸可擊可是我們要開始演繹好不好一定要來提升我們基層教師的待遇部長謝謝最後因為剩下兩分鐘的時間院長必須跟你關切我很關心的就是有關於我們都市更新要加速危老條例"},{"start":805.243,"end":831.038,"text":"不能落日這個非常關切的因為我的選區也是萬華區它的平均屋齡41年台北市最老的區域其中有近7成的屋齡都超過40年那這不是單一選區的問題全台灣都面臨這樣的就是我們都市需要來更新所以我聽說內政部有在研議危老條例因為按照現行法規一年半後就要來這個時間到期了是不是有嚴厲要來讓它能夠延長"},{"start":834,"end":861.693,"text":"違老都更都是我們在明年度重大的推升內需的重要項目所以對違老都更都更我們會同時進行都更我們甚至在公辦自辦之外要推自主都更那違老的我們還有新的包括這個預算已經編進去了對整個老宅延壽機能復興計畫那裡面對達到一定條件的建築物達到一定年限的建築物我們會有一些補助的一個方案請次長說明"},{"start":862.958,"end":881.849,"text":"圍繞條例過去幾年我們的成效非常好就是這8年來有近5000件的申請這要肯定內政部同仁的努力所以第一個我們希望新政院承諾圍繞條例不落日剛剛院長有提到的我們還有新增的項目對不對包括我們的榮獎是不是有新增項目公益設施 社福設施是不是會納入新增的榮獎"},{"start":883.09,"end":900.516,"text":"也在跟社會溝通中我們的危老條例會在這個會期我們送到行政院來做備審因為危老條例裡面我們還會增加老宅延壽的章節讓整個的危老跟老宅延壽全部都可以一起整合讓整個社區能夠在地安老然後讓整個人民的生活環境比較好都市環境也變得比較好"},{"start":901.107,"end":922.653,"text":"老宅延售就是有些房子可能要改建但是布丁馬上等得到所以我們先讓他安全要提升例如說有些老舊公寓沒有電梯的讓他增設電梯可以補助那過去呢像台北市他只補助公共設施未來我們內政部這個案件這個任性計畫剛剛曾經過嘛市內的修繕你們有沒有納入補助我們不是只有走走電梯還有傳進空"},{"start":938.792,"end":939.473,"text":"好 謝謝吳佩儀委員質詢 謝謝卓院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":250,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（15時2分）好，謝謝主席，我請行政院卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好。前陣子就在我們臺北市、我們首都的國門臺北車站發生了一起令人心痛而且震驚國人的性侵案件，其中後續的媒體傳播也讓國人更加的震撼，我們馬上就跟臺鐵來關切，在這邊我也要肯定臺鐵和鐵路警察局，其實在第一天第一時間就做出了協調跟回應，就是我們加強了臺鐵站內的保全，下個月甚至會增加保全的人力，讓見人率、見警率可以來提升。不過也在這個案件的了解當中，我發現我們臺鐵站內鐵路警察的人力其實有一個很大的缺口，我不知道院長有沒有了解，我們鐵路警察的員額是近900名，目前還有184名，近200名沒有人。"],["卓院長榮泰：缺額還是很大的。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，鐵路警察要負責什麼呢？臺鐵總共242個車站，還有高鐵12個車站，沿路超過一千公里沿線都需要他們為我們來維護治安，所以臺鐵工會其實上半年就有提出來了，因為他們發現我們臺鐵自己內部的人員在站內巡查的時候，光是上半年遭受攻擊的案件就有多起，所以院長，能不能夠協助趕快來把鐵路警察的員額……有員額，但是沒人，能不能趕快把人來補齊？"],["卓院長榮泰：了解到內政部警政署已經有一個擴大招生的計畫，預計在未來的年度裡面要有大量的招生，但是這個也要靠整個計畫能夠推動順暢，請次長來說明。"],["董次長建宏：委員、院長，大家好。要跟委員報告，我們整個目前在臺鐵鐵路警察局的員額有910人，差額184人，我們會透過警力的提供，還有短期計畫的方式來增加。"],["吳委員沛憶：短期計畫我了解，我現在在問員額，有沒有逐年要去補？"],["董次長建宏：對，總體的員額在115年我們要再派補3,000人，在派補3,000人裡面，我們已經派補了2,600人，在115年……"],["吳委員沛憶：明年就會開始派補嘛？"],["董次長建宏：對，我們已經派補了，115年還會再派補3,000人。"],["吳委員沛憶：請你們一定要去注意這個問題，不要等到事件發生遺憾的時候才來發現人力不足，這個是我們平常就要做的。"],["董次長建宏：對，我們平常就有在做。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了鐵路警察人力以外，有關於臺鐵，我們部長在這裡，他非常了解，過去我也多次請交通部來協助，因為臺北車站是六鐵共構，裡面還牽涉到臺北市政府，地下街有市場處、有臺北捷運公司，常常需要臺鐵跟臺北市政府進行協調，所以我要請交通部大力協助臺鐵。現在我們有災防聯合中心，治安也是聯合的重點，請你們協助臺鐵跟地方政府多來協調，我希望未來臺北車站的治安維護可以提升整體的量能，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["董次長建宏：我們會跟臺北市政府……"],["吳委員沛憶：這個案件也引發社會諸多的討論，但我這裡要強調，從目前披露的資訊，這個個案跟街友沒有任何關聯，它其實跟街友無關，但因為臺北市確實是衛福部有列冊的全國街友人數最多的一個城市，而在臺北市當中，又以臺北車站是街友聚集最多人數的熱點，所以過去我在擔任市議員期間，也長期跟臺北市政府關心有關於街友安置、街友輔導、街友收容、街友就業扶助等等相關的議題，需要由市政府、地方政府協助。","除了地方政府以外，我們的法律基礎也很重要，其實現在有關於街友輔導在法律層面的條文就只有一條而已，就是社會救助法第十七條，當中有提到文字是這樣──警察發現街友要通報社會局一起處理，但如何處理呢？由地方政府自訂。所以過去縣市地方議會有不同縣市議員跟我們反映，因為沒有法源基礎，沒有明定地方政府扶助街友的法定義務是什麼，所以議會要監督政府常常也是狗吠火車，也就是積極的地方政府他要做，例如過去臺中市自己就訂定了自治條例，他有辦法做，但是不想做的地方政府，你也拿他沒辦法，因為沒有法定義務。","這個在我進立法院的第二個月，團體就來跟我們討論，當時希望中央可以訂定無家者專法，我也找了衛福部來討論，當時我們知道衛福部也正在研擬社救法修法的草案，所以衛福部過去曾經主張就在社救法的修法當中併入無家者專章，當時我們認為這個時程比較快，但我們萬萬沒有料到，後來在野黨提出了財劃法的修法，所以導致社救法的修法……原先院長有一個心願我們也很支持，就是希望政府對於弱勢的照顧能夠擴大，但現在因為財源的關係，社救法也需要更多的討論，因為它牽涉到執行層面。所以我的建議是有關於無家者的輔導，讓地方政府有明定的法定義務，我們是不是先來研擬無家者專法，讓無家者專法先行，衛福部有沒有辦法先來研擬這樣的方向呢？"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員特別關心到無家者或者是街友的福利跟權益，確實如同委員所說，我們在去年（113年）曾經預告社會救助法修法的草案，如同委員提到當時現行社會救助法只有一條條文是跟街友相關，在我們的草案裡面增加到五條，包含定義、包含中央與地方應該要如何來協助、資源如何挹注，從經濟安全、從脫貧自立到社會投資，有這樣的想法去規範，但是確實在預告之後也有很多的意見，再加上……"],["吳委員沛憶：社救法目前有預定要送立法院的時間嗎？"],["石部長崇良：因為意見很多，我們還在溝通，另外還有一個變數就是財政……"],["吳委員沛憶：還在溝通？也還有財源的變數？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為臺北市萬華區跟中正區這些臺北市街友集中的熱點剛好都在我的選區當中，雖然我們長期在協助民間，同時也督促地方政府要來做街友的輔導，其實需要大量的安置空間與相關的扶助。院長，是不是可以研擬無家者專法我們先行訂定，我也會提出草案，希望行政院可以支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員出身臺北市議會，由地方議會來到國會殿堂，更了解地方對於這些問題直接面、第一面的衝擊，也謝謝委員剛剛提到這麼多，我覺得還是要回歸到整個地方的執行面來看，中央可以訂一個大方向出來，剛剛提到因為現在在財劃法新法的制度底下，中央的力量已經被削弱了很多，所以如何讓地方能夠確實來執行，中央可以有一個方向訂出來，但執行的過程還是要靠地方政府來完成。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，所以大的方向……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們可以把這個方向訂出來。"],["吳委員沛憶：我認為我們先來制定專法。"],["卓院長榮泰：另外就是這個案件算是治安事件，不要把它跟街友的安置、不安置混在一起。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，這是兩個案件、獨立事件，我剛剛也提到。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，它是治安事件，我們用這樣……"],["吳委員沛憶：但是街友的扶助，這個是進步的國家，我們要一起來支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：另外就是臺北車站絕對是一個重要、重大的關鍵基礎設施，中央政府要投入更多。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，針對無家者專法的後續，我就持續來跟你們討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：接下來要跟院長關心的、院長也很關心的，就是10月10號新上路的3天教師身心調適假，大家都非常期待，因為我們既有現行的就是教師有7天的事假，照理說，7天的事假加上3天的身心調適假，7加3應該等於10，但是我們現在的算法是，因為身心調適假併入事假，你們的7加3還是等於7……"],["卓院長榮泰：只是他請假的要件比較簡化。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以你把事假跟身心調適假併假計算，我認為實質上等於教師有3天假被你們偷走了。所以全教總的批評非常地激烈，我來跟院長分享，全教總說：第一個，你這個是換湯不換藥，因為教師的假期總額沒增加，大家期待已久，都聽說有新的3天身心調適假，以為總額會增加，結果一樣，因為你併入事假計算；第二個，我本來就有7天的事假，你現在把我併進來，我既有的事假其實被你壓縮了；第三個，新增身心調適假的假別，就是認為身心調適是一個符合、也是我們賴清德總統的政見「健康台灣」身心健康的需求，你們把身心調適併入事假，請問現在有身心調適需求是很有事嗎？是有事嗎？你們沒有正面地去肯定它，它本來就是一個理由。所以我還是希望，其實部長，也有很多人跟你有過討論，我還是希望我們可以研擬身心調適假應該要還給教師，3天應該獨立計算，不要併入事假。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員體諒，我們這個制度先讓它上路，是考慮到真正的有需求，但是我們要考慮到整個所有身分別的人的公平性跟平衡性，還要考慮到產業界跟放假日數的增加與否，所以我們先用這樣的方式簡化他請事假、請病假的原因，他不用去舉很多的例子，先這樣來上路。上路之後一定會引起社會的重視，正面的反應很好、很多，我們就可以進一步來推動，我們用階段性來做。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，上路之後，也要請教育部、行政院持續來關切，因為馬上第1天臺中市就發生了有老師要請假，地方教育局說：「你先把7天事假用完再說」，這個沒有達到我們的初衷，我知道教育部有關切，所以滾動式來調整。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：我還是希望朝向未來身心調適假3天還給教師，這是應該的。","再來，部長也很了解，就在這個議場，不久之前，部長曾經承諾要研擬提升基層教師的鐘點費，也朝這個方向研議，為什麼？因為現在新聞報導很多專題都有，年輕人沒有人願意來當老師，出現教師荒；同時，還出現行政大逃亡，就是當教師的第一線教學現場真的辛苦，然後除了教學以外，我們還要老師兼做行政，所以不只沒有人要當老師，已經是老師的也沒有人想要兼行政。","除了教師鐘點費要提升這個方向我覺得要研議以外，我也認為導師費跟行政加給可以研議調整，因為這兩個工作都是老師在教學以外，我們額外賦予他的工作。院長，你覺得我們能不能夠當基層教師的後盾去研擬呢？因為我剛剛講的鐘點費，以這20年來我們的基本工資來講，剛剛院長有提到重要的、我們各個行業別，大家應該要去相互地注意，20年來基本工資調漲的幅度是187倍，而20年來教師鐘點費的調幅是多少呢？只有5%，落後了一般社會勞工的37倍，我們基層教師有這麼不值嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：教育部跟我們都有注意到這個重大的問題，所以日前也有委員在這裡談過這樣的狀況，我們也覺得這個不成比例的問題要趕快來解決。我記得那天教育部有一個說法，是不是再請……"],["吳委員沛憶：好，部長，我要拜託你，我們也討論過很多次，我們看到問題就要解決問題……"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員，確實我們內部……"],["吳委員沛憶：也許沒有辦法一蹴可及，可是我們要開始研議，一定要來提升我們基層教師的待遇，好不好？謝謝部長。","最後，剩下兩分鐘的時間，院長，我必須跟你提出我很關心的，就是我們的都市更新要加速，危老條例不能落日，這是我非常關切的，因為我的選區也是萬華區，它的平均屋齡41年，是臺北市最老的區域，其中有近七成的屋齡都超過40年，這不是單一選區的問題，全臺灣都面臨這樣的問題，也就是我們的都市都需要來更新。我聽說內政部有在研議危老條例，因為按照現行法規，一年半以後就要屆期了，請問是不是有研議讓危老條例落日的部分能夠延長？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯，危老、都更都是我們明年度重大推升內需的重要項目，所以危老跟都更我們會同時進行，都更甚至在公辦、自辦之外，還要推自主都更；危老的部分，我們還有新的……包括相關預算已經編進去了。在整個老宅延壽機能復新計畫中，對於達到一定條件的建築物、達到一定年限的建築物，我們都會有一些補助的方案。對此，請次長說明。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們危老條例過去幾年執行的成效非常好，這八年來有近5,000件的申請案，這要肯定內政部同仁的努力，所以第一個，我們希望行政院承諾危老條例不落日，剛剛院長有提到我們還有新增的項目，對不對？包括我們的容獎，是不是有新增項目？公益設施、社福設施，是不是會納入新增的容獎？"],["董次長建宏：這些我們都在研議當中，也在跟社會溝通中，我們會在這個會期將危老條例送行政院來做備審；危老條例裡面，我們還會增加老宅延壽的章節，讓整個危老跟老宅延壽，全部都可以一起整合，讓整個社區能夠在地安老，讓整個人民的生活環境比較好，都市環境也變得比較好。"],["吳委員沛憶：老宅延壽就是有些房子可能要改建，但是不一定馬上等得到，所以我們要先讓它提升安全，例如說有些老舊公寓沒有電梯的，讓它可以增設電梯並予以補助，過去像臺北市就只有補助公共設施；未來內政部針對這些案件，像韌性計畫剛審過，所以室內的修繕你們有沒有納入補助？"],["董次長建宏：有，不是只有電梯，還有環境空間、門面的拉皮，還包括室內空間的補助，我們會結合衛福部跟經濟部來做內部的整合跟整理，讓他們生活的環境更好、更節能。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這個3年50億預算我們很支持，也認為很重要，希望我們可以繼續努力、加油，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢。接下來我們請馬文君委員質詢，廖偉翔委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164476","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164476","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993fd4d0447aa515ad73ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d2f3ee4f7ce62287085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"14:30:51 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院長好 我們有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":27.438,"end":42.081,"text":"我還是稱邱委員好院長好我想請教一下我們苗栗的自來水普及率只有87.6%比全國平均95.5%低了快8個百分點"},{"start":43.462,"end":61.961,"text":"我們蔡英文政府在2017年也就是在自來水普及率93.1%的時候明確定下目標就是希望2024年能夠達到95%那KPI設得很清楚所以從106年到110年全國普及率升了1.2個百分點平均一年成長0.3"},{"start":63.422,"end":87.166,"text":"那蔡政府的這個95%的目標4年就達成了那我想請問一下我們賴清德政府他有定下這個目標嗎我們未來有5年有計畫用200億5年的計畫200億希望把我們的這個那有沒有算過多少個百分點要提升多少"},{"start":88.578,"end":107.418,"text":"好像不到10個百分點一般委員因為苗栗它山區是比較多偏遠地區比較多所以施桌上會稍微困難但是我們會加大力道本來新的第五期本來就會加強比較偏遠地區的就是額度"},{"start":109.941,"end":132.583,"text":"我幫你這個粗算了一下苗栗會從80%未來5年如果我們投入的將近80%更高到87%有大概7個鄉鎮自來水普及率低於70%那有兩個鄉鎮其實就是我們部長講的就是我們斯坦跟泰安都兩個斯坦只有3.39%"},{"start":134.224,"end":147.671,"text":"那泰安只有2.27那當然是因為它是山區啦所以這個部分當然我不能這樣拿來比較我這樣大概算了一下6萬戶每戶大概2.4萬人大概14.4萬人全國人口數總共是2430萬從普及率95.81%算起"},{"start":158.357,"end":185.386,"text":"就算是全部結商5年最多只能變成96.4%5年106億 提200億大概提升到0.6到0.8%左右省紀不知要說按照現在的速度要248年大家才有自來水可以用我們沒有一個具體的目標嗎保安委員 所以因為在比較偏但是我們這個200億裡面的確有它的分配比如說"},{"start":187.472,"end":202.719,"text":"原住民地區它就會分配有一定的額度不會說金額會被其他的挪用走那是第一個第二個就是說因為你還是要如果要完全的接自來水管的話有時候會有它的困難那個時間也會拉長"},{"start":203.92,"end":217.425,"text":"但是我們會趕快用至少這個檢疫自來水可以我知道卓院長上任之後他在去年我們這個整個有調過本來是每戶60萬提高到80萬那水庫周邊面100萬這個我謝謝院長"},{"start":219.426,"end":238.276,"text":"但是我發現這樣速度還是很慢而且我看到數據非常奇怪提升自來水普及率照理來說應該要越來越高可是數據非常奇怪我們賴總統上任之後自來水普及率不增反減這是什麼原因從113年的6月95.81%起掉到114年的6月剩下95.55%為什麼會這樣這是你們給我的數據"},{"start":248.174,"end":267.276,"text":"我們是持續的在增加越到後端啦 它這個速度會越慢因為施工 它為什麼會減少呢那普及率為什麼會減少照理是人口成長才會減少嗎我們分母沒變大啊那為什麼這個數字是變小的呢這個數字我們再查證一下我猜到可能是統計不一樣啦"},{"start":268.397,"end":295.468,"text":"就是你們統計的方式不一樣統計的基礎可能會有落差還是你們換了方式在做計算但是苗栗的這個是一定的基準就像您剛才提到的從80現在變成87我們會持續的往上我希望這樣有一些地方當然它山區說實在要完全把管線牽完城確實不容易而且成本非常大但是有一些人口密集的部分還請我們這邊"},{"start":297.806,"end":308.621,"text":"行政院這邊多多幫忙所以剛剛委員也特別提到了我們把我們的那個比較偏遠地方的那個金額調高了最上限調高了那就至少可以把它"},{"start":309.307,"end":330.628,"text":"地方上的事情我們會來協助可能中間要牽扯到加壓站什麼的然後後期的維護管理我會協調各鄉鎮市公所來協助另外再一樣還是同樣水的問題就明德水庫這一座水庫一直負責苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的自來水供應每天大概供應1.8萬噸民生用水"},{"start":333.21,"end":342.621,"text":"大概有1.6萬戶居民使用但是近年來民人水庫的角色其實在改變了中生政策也非常明確要朝觀光休息使用來轉型"},{"start":344.076,"end":371.055,"text":"那像海棠島的這個發展水上的休息區還有環湖步道這個自行車步道有的在施工那未來還要結合在地的這個旅遊還有農業的灌溉那這樣的轉型其實我們都樂見因為其實它的水質本來就不好但是我也要考慮一個問題那民生用水怎麼辦現在是苗栗市跟投屋鄉的鄉親在使用這個水"},{"start":371.943,"end":388.3,"text":"那我知道我們鯉魚灘水庫在這個南水北宋工程在明年底會全數這個全線完成那有沒有可能有沒有可能這個時候如果它通水的時候給我們苗栗市跟投物鄉的這個鄉民來使用"},{"start":389.225,"end":414.75,"text":"經濟部有一個更長遠的一個構想跟計畫部長來答問我想那個民生水庫可能民生用水這個部分我們還是希望可以保留啦因為民生用水還是比較重要第二個就是說我們也知道說縣政府已經針對那個天花湖的部分已經有在對 天花湖水庫我們如果天花湖蓋好以後我想那個民生水庫轉型我們再重新調配可是那沒那麼快啊 對不對"},{"start":416.148,"end":423.533,"text":"這個如果其實這個如果接應該不難啦它管線就已經有了嘛大條管線都有啦南水北送其實難度應該不大"},{"start":425.3,"end":452.965,"text":"對 但是我們還是希望明德水棍還是我為什麼要這樣講就是我們每天我算過就是我們那個工程送上去每年每天大概可以供應20萬噸的用水那目前其實我們使用率加苗栗頭顧地區只有1.8萬公噸那在未來其實它還有很大的空間可以使用在短期之內主要是平常都沒有問題但是我們很怕"},{"start":453.365,"end":474.335,"text":"我們現階段只使用5.5萬噸再加上1.8其實還好極端氣候常常會有枯水或者是等等一些情況那這樣啦好不好當然啦就是說在平常在管線接嘛對不對那萬一真的有碰到這個時候我們還可以用明熱水庫的水仙來做這個應急嘛"},{"start":475.695,"end":489.729,"text":"不然這個部分我們在有一個規劃以後再跟委員報告一下看看怎麼樣的情況但是我們還是希望就是說民生水庫在短期之內民生用水的它功能或調配的功能還是有它的存在性"},{"start":490.183,"end":518.32,"text":"我知道我沒有叫你廢掉啦我沒有叫你廢掉只是說我為什麼要這樣講就是明德水庫現在是環境部列出全台高度優氧化的水而且這個水質早就被點名是最差等級了苗栗市民跟頭湖鄉的鄉親還在使用這個水苗栗水庫是水庫大縣會把它轉為比較是調度使用的這個在比較極端氣候的時候我想這個沒有理由讓我們繼續喝這個水吧"},{"start":519.116,"end":541.712,"text":"因為我沒有叫你現在說一定因為是你有南水北送所以我才提這個意見今天如果沒有那當然這個工程太大可是今天有這個管線我們回去再來協助好不好好的好的另外我們今天天花湖水庫2013年就通過平建如果更長期天花湖水庫蓋好大概就沒有問題了就整個可以"},{"start":542.492,"end":560.7,"text":"報告委員在明德水庫還在供應民生用水的時候我也要求經濟部跟台水確保這個明德水庫的水質是在我們一定可控安全的情況底下才能這樣做這個一定會達到我兩個都考慮一下啦好不好另外還有就是說我們天灣湖水庫213年就通過環評"},{"start":563.217,"end":566.32,"text":"主要還是地方政府如果說他的意見真的已經溝通好的話你們預算編了嗎 今年會編嗎 有編嗎"},{"start":588.525,"end":606.546,"text":"工程款還沒有變你還要徵收耶現在土地取得還有很多的評估我們再跟苗栗縣政府確定一下如果真的是沒有問題我記得開了三場的地方說明會啦已經開了三場啦所以地方上的聲音好像大家都不會像上次這樣"},{"start":607.327,"end":634.569,"text":"如果地方都贊成的話合力來開發如果合力來開發的話我們盡快蓋好之後是對我們整個科技產業的非常重要的一個環節然後我再請教就是我們副總統蕭美琴在接受加拿大媒體專訪說我們承諾在美國投資不只是台積電還有整個生態系都要過去就是從供應商到設計商甚至其他晶片製造公司"},{"start":635.109,"end":656.936,"text":"那我想請問這具整個生態系是不是意味著台灣未來不只台積電赴美連中油林組件還有我們上油材料IC設計甚至封窗測試業者都要過去事實上包委員台灣的這個在台灣的半導體的生態體系基本上我們的設備跟材料也是國外提供的"},{"start":658.154,"end":683.859,"text":"這是我們未來執政的方向嗎沒有 比如說來講美國硬材它本來就是在美國所以它在美國供應給台灣的台積電美國的台積電在當地的你們不擔心我們台灣的整個整個這個東西都掏空跑到美國去那我們台灣怎麼辦呢美國硬材它不用從台灣的公司搬東西去美國因為它美國本來它就是在我們的人才過不過去"},{"start":685.45,"end":710.866,"text":"人才來講的話 我們是第一批去如果他settle down以後 這些人才是要回來的我希望這樣子啦 還是要以台灣為主你們不要以為不要多把台灣整個最寶貴的東西拉到美國去那台灣到時候什麼都沒有我們怎麼跟下一代交代不會 不會 立足台灣好不好 那再問 就是說桃竹苗大矽谷推動計畫到底有沒有要做"},{"start":712.91,"end":726.355,"text":"理論上是在推動 怎麼推動你們在國內說要打造然後發展AI要留住產業 培養人才可是在國際場合又說要整個這個生態系要赴美陶鑄苗大細股是我們在六大產業生活區當中"},{"start":727.555,"end":746.554,"text":"速度跑最快的經濟部也在推動裡面的太空相關的產業衛福部也在推動關於生意的產業另外速發部跟經濟部也在推動深層式AI的應用產業這個都已經初步在規劃了現在就是還有包括竹南還有投奮跟厚隆三個科學園區"},{"start":747.555,"end":768.844,"text":"目前還要把他的這個土地用地等等還要做跟地方政府還要做一些溝通還要做一些努力包括他的都市計劃變更所以現在是以國發會來統籌是嗎報告委員其實那個桃豬苗大細股是要中央跟地方共同合作所以我們國發會成立一個桃豬苗大細股的"},{"start":770.224,"end":798.156,"text":"協調的這個平台那我們會根據地方的這些提案然後我們找到權責單位我們扮演溝通協調的角色這個方案基本上是在六大區域產業生活圈裡面當然我們中央跟地方一定會全力推動好 我當然看到你有這樣回答我是很高興因為我看不到你的施政重點裡面哪一頁 哪一條 哪一個項目有出現桃園 桃竹苗大溪谷計畫的這個六個字都沒有看到"},{"start":798.516,"end":822.212,"text":"六大區域產業生活圈裡面都有提到桃竹苗大細股那將來他還有很多包括剛剛你說的鯉魚潭這個是用水的配套還有交通的配套也有羊頭段的交通配套羊奶也會做另外銅鑼的一個設置再生能源的一個中心國科會也是在規劃當中這個都是很多的配套當中比較屬於重要的一部分所以有沒有針對這個計畫編對然後有沒有編對這個預算有沒有編列預算"},{"start":825.953,"end":845.331,"text":"我們在整個六大產業生活區當中我們編列了將近兩千九百億那些本來是外圍嘛對不對有沒有針對這個計畫來做沒有沒有看到啊我們可以另外提醒因為在審查預算的過程裡面如果有詳細的詢問未來在真的審查的時候這個中間有開過會嗎有開過幾次"},{"start":849.777,"end":868.385,"text":"幾次喔 很多次大大小小各種六大產業生活區我們都一直持續的開會那現在整個都已經核定了這個桃樹苗大溪谷是其中跑最快的速度最快的因為我知道這個其實鯉魚潭水庫包含鯉魚潭水庫沿管工程他是從民國九十幾年就規劃了"},{"start":869.588,"end":897.143,"text":"那國道也是啦國道也是111年才合訂的所以我認為這個大溪谷計畫這些周邊當然它都是有相關聯沒錯但是我要講的是說這個部分本來在還沒有大溪谷計畫之前就已經在計畫在做了我有希望更明確的就是說把這個大溪谷計畫放在我們的整個計畫裡面讓我們可以去做追蹤然後當然我們也希望能夠盡快看到一個成果"},{"start":898.904,"end":920.996,"text":"當然地方要配合我們會全力配合六大產業生活區他是一個產業生活的結合但為了要支撐這個我們有152項以上的地方建設其中都涵蓋剛剛委員講的這個都包含在內這個才能夠讓他的各種生活機能跟交通建設跟產業需求能夠符合他的要求才能夠趁著這個六大區域能夠同時發展"},{"start":921.636,"end":940.814,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我再挑過一個下一個問題就是我們苗栗縣有一個這個義捷公車停駛那前幾天發生了一件事情就是新竹客運在9月15日停駛苗栗縣公館路線公館還有大湖路線那然後"},{"start":941.995,"end":967.251,"text":"義捷科技公司接棒帶駛了12條客運線但是前幾天因為現在實在大環境很困難突然無預警的停駛當然我也謝謝我們交通部新竹區建立所有出面來做協調但這個問題還是存在我是希望說這個部分我們是不是有必要要檢討檢討我們中央補貼公車路線的"},{"start":972.711,"end":997.887,"text":"經費有沒有希望能夠往上調一點好 報告委員我們對於這個路線的補貼目前匡列了3580萬那目前的運作其實都還正常只不過這間公司確實它在財務的調度上面確實是有問題那我們現在有幾個預防的方式第一個就是說我們會介入跟了解它發薪水的整個金流的狀況如果有狀況我們會隨時預警這第一點"},{"start":998.507,"end":1013.044,"text":"第二點我們也會跟司機也就是駕駛員的這個群組大家來組一個群組如果駕駛有反映到這樣的問題我們會馬上出面來接手那第三個就是說如果真的有這種預警性的有可能會停駛的時候"},{"start":1013.424,"end":1030.271,"text":"我們有協調了金牌客運還有苗栗客運在它停止的時候有人可以接手那是目前我們處理的方式但根本溯源來講的話最重要是這個公司要能夠正常運作正常營運所以我們也會看它的營運的狀況23號有約 有召開協調會那幾部裡面再派人過來"},{"start":1034.179,"end":1060.297,"text":"另外其實我會講這個事情是五天前他停死那前兩天晚上我們突然看到他又公告又公告 自行公告又要停死當然我們馬上介入才沒有發生所以我想這個問題還是要因為我們牽扯到很多老人家年長者跟一些要上班族他們確實就只能靠公車來上下班所以這個還請部長這邊來多多協助這個我們會來注意 隨時注意謝謝"},{"start":1061.898,"end":1091.022,"text":"另外我再請教院長關於能源的部分我想確認一件事情我們賴行哲總統說2030年要投入9000億推動淨零轉型請問這跟蔡政府2022年推動的2050年淨零轉型行動方案是一樣的嗎當中有很多的關鍵的一些技術的建設以及六大部門的整個延續性的工作當然是階段性在進行的"},{"start":1091.898,"end":1116.615,"text":"對 我當然 政策當然要延續啦當然 偷換概念就不行啦你們這個政府的最大問題就是我又有時候聽不太清楚你們講什麼那既然錢都花了 計畫也不是新的那理論上賴總統對外應該要告訴大家做了什麼 成果在哪裡啊而不像現在這樣子 然後一開口動不動就要幾千億我們真的不知道這些錢要用在哪裡然後 面對氣候變遷 沒有人是舉外人啦我希望"},{"start":1118.629,"end":1143.931,"text":"不要把這個事情然後搞到變成每一個人都是受害的報告委員不會啦因為我們是講說這個投入投入的這個額度那比如說像離岸豐電來講的話事實上一個豐廠就要一千億的台幣所以就是說只要這個綠能產業我們持續的推動的話那會創造出還有電動車的推動就會產生出這樣的一個效果出來"},{"start":1144.779,"end":1155.182,"text":"我跟你講大概2023年全國排碳量是27800萬噸2024年排碳升到32100萬噸多了5000萬噸所以我們的政府花了那麼多錢在淨零碳排氣越來越高這個是不是有搞錯方向"},{"start":1169.825,"end":1187.732,"text":"報告委員那個碳排是明顯的下降2023年跟2005年相比減了4.64所以我們持續在往下走你往下 我要往後比啊你2024年為什麼高勒2024目前來看我們預期是往下降而且持續在往下走當中今年確定會比去年低"},{"start":1193.162,"end":1216.659,"text":"2023年的碳排2022年底你們說減碳有成那為什麼會比較高你說這個數據是你後面再拿給我好嗎我們其實在氣候變遷對策委員會裡面都有特別提到都有公布這個數字我就是抓那上面的資料所以看到他是提高的沒有明顯的從過去這幾年顯著的一個下降目前最新的一筆是2023年"},{"start":1219.749,"end":1247.003,"text":"審計部報告說的很清楚台電虧損的主要原因就是外購綠電支出暴增三年內從588億增加到1193億那今年台電購電價格風電每度是6.7光電5.3那這樣買電的話 院長這樣是不是會越來越虧那台電怎麼負擔得了初期的成本當然是要計算比較高一點那會它隨著它的賺收會越來越下降"},{"start":1248.744,"end":1270.723,"text":"對 現在的綠電他們已經大部分很多都不透過台電賣了因為他們的價錢比較好是自己供應給需求方他直接供應 線路用誰的線路還是用管電線還是用台電啊台電還是要負責維運還是要維護啊台電只是收那個過路費而已真正的價格 他有收過路費嗎對 有收"},{"start":1272.745,"end":1290.824,"text":"就是他看他的那個距離就是說應用的距離比如說來講某一家公司他買的是假設講台積電他去購買了一個風場然後他算他的距離過路費是多少他收這個但是實際的價格就變成是台積電跟這個風場他們自己去談"},{"start":1292.214,"end":1317.751,"text":"價錢他們自己去談所以我們都沒介入啊我們不會去干涉因為是民間的我看到我們光電的這個你們現在要推這個光儲這個結合的政策嘛對不對光儲結合那現在光電的收購制度有兩種第一種沒有儲能系統的這個台電這個購價大概是5.43元那第二種有儲能系統的是由能源署開標得標在"},{"start":1318.652,"end":1343.185,"text":"要求台電用保證收購價去跟業者購買這樣是嗎除能的就是說我們事實上是鼓勵這個發電業者他有除能設施啦那這樣的話可以讓這個那除能你跟除能店買多少錢呢如果是除能電廠除能電廠我們沒有跟他用我看到得標是最美度電是9.59元不是"},{"start":1346.365,"end":1357.827,"text":"委員可能講的是那個需求的時候那個時候是淨價的時候對 他們最高價是9.59元那個是需量淨價非常短的時間裡面緊急調度用那至於就是說我們現在是111年就飆了欸111年就飆了"},{"start":1374.757,"end":1394.635,"text":"這一家是哪一家公司你知道嗎就是我們雲豹能源北門光處合一廠 暗廠那是全台最早一批光處結合示範廠你們要推很快他們早就做好了就很巧他的子公司富仁資本在111年那一場競標標到了目前最高價是9.5多"},{"start":1395.817,"end":1410.329,"text":"我以這個比例來算如果以這個保證收費下去買電比一般光電是5.43元高出一倍台電自己發電成本高出三倍台電繼續虧損狀況之下我們還要再漲幾次電到時候把資料給我好不好"},{"start":1421.159,"end":1429.029,"text":"那個可能在序量競價在短時間內要緊急調度使用那絕不是長期的合約也把那個你們這個合約未來會簽約嗎假如說這種部分會簽約嗎"},{"start":1436.591,"end":1450.79,"text":"會跟廠商簽約嗎那一簽有沒有限定說一次一定多少年沒有我跟委員報告這個短縮價格基本上他是逐年下降所以不會出現說9塊多的這些狀況我是說你的合約呢合約會不會用綁約一綁10年20年合約"},{"start":1454.284,"end":1459.808,"text":"等於台電就是要虧20年跟委員報告 現在說老實話需要綠電的人越來越高了所以非常有可能會超過五塊六塊然後他們就會跟台電分手你會後再給我資料"},{"start":1474.199,"end":1487.855,"text":"謝謝另外院長我再請教關稅的問題就是我們現在掌握大家的訊息都停留在20%加N那個階段請問你的具體內容稅率範圍談判進度每次問都答不出來"},{"start":1489.918,"end":1503.624,"text":"川普宣布關稅之後我們看到你們對美方的加碼採購投資承諾一項接一項所以我想問的更直接一點這些加碼採購的投資是不是拿來跟川普政府交換條件"},{"start":1505.387,"end":1530.243,"text":"加碼採購跟投資採購是基於我國的各項需求我們去對外國政府做一些採購外國的民間做採購這個一方面國家的需求一方面我們財政的能力至於投資在主要的部分是產業自主性的投資比較多政府沒有辦法指揮產業你要去哪裡投資多少錢投資什麼產業但是產業如果有這種全球性的佈局"},{"start":1530.723,"end":1544.982,"text":"政府協助他來做一些行政以及金融保證的這個方面我們是可以做的所以我們在關稅上我們有跟美國這邊談的我們條件會比別人好嗎我們現在提出的就是台灣模式會長委員也聽過"},{"start":1547.305,"end":1572.847,"text":"產業自主去投資政府用金融支持來保證那雙方政府政府之間來談合作合作什麼產業聚落那這個產業聚落形成需要美方在很多資源土地跟行政作業上給我們協助那這個產業的聚落未來就形成一個園區來幫助雙方的業者共同的發展因為各位看到了我們也希望這個二等關稅的部分現在是暫時性的是20我們希望可以往下降"},{"start":1573.707,"end":1598.475,"text":"對 我不希望我希望你們是去談判的啦我希望我們的代表團是去談判的不是去美國接任務好嗎 可以嗎我們是美國去完成國家給他的任務不是去美國接任務是去美國接美國的任務啦不是不是 完成國家賦予他的任務我很擔心這樣子 把台灣都賣了我們會談得很好的第二回合好 那我再問喔產業對投資4000億美元正確嗎產業"},{"start":1603.934,"end":1628.216,"text":"對不起要對美投資4000億美元這件事現在雙方談到的技術性協商當中當然有很多的方案提出的想法但目前還沒有做哪一部分具體說當雙方 院長剛剛講說是我們業者自主那我看到郭智恆前部長說要再加碼2000億美元這是真的還假的"},{"start":1628.396,"end":1643.711,"text":"那看業者有沒有這種投資的計畫所以他是幫業者講話囉主要是業者他有這樣的意願有這樣的全球佈局的需求那我們來協助他所以我們當然也做過一些盤點來支持這樣的產業有這樣的佈局"},{"start":1647.577,"end":1669.789,"text":"另外還有我們農業部陳部長不是簽了要買100億美元的農產品嗎那不是農業部那是業者自己去的那我就很好奇就是說我們這四年要買超過100億美元的黃豆 玉米 小麥 牛肉比過去平均值真的25%那我們賴總統他在接見美國農業部"},{"start":1673.132,"end":1680.821,"text":"貿易及對外事業部次長林德伯格宣布了台灣業規劃未來四年採購100億的美國農產品是同一件事嗎"},{"start":1684.734,"end":1708.412,"text":"我跟委員報告這個114年100億美元的一個採購是由業者因為他們的平均的一個需求而去購買的這第一個第二個部分就是提高25%它的計算基準是113年比113年提高了25%但是以過去5年的平均的話大致上還是落在過去5年的一個購買的一個平均水準"},{"start":1708.852,"end":1714.517,"text":"因為我看到賴總統還強調說這是提升糧食安全的戰略合作"},{"start":1715.131,"end":1743.121,"text":"他有基於我們進口所需要的也有消費的習慣還有我們這個畜牧業所需要一些肥料之後那部長為什麼又說我又覺得很奇怪啊如果這是本來就有的部長為什麼又說這樣的承諾有助於台美關稅的談判如果只是業者生意為什麼要升高到戰略層級我一直很納悶這個事情我跟委員報告就是我們所採購的是我們國內自給率非常低的平均的自給率都在5%以下像大豆的話甚至於自給率只有0.02"},{"start":1744.582,"end":1763.43,"text":"那相對的台灣沒有生產但是需要特別是飼料用所以我們進口的中醫都是飼料用反而可以增加降低我們的農民的一個生產成本因為我看到就是平均一年進口量大概19億美金美元每一年那4年的話4年的話也不過到76億對吧那"},{"start":1769.873,"end":1784.741,"text":"你現在拉高到100億就差了25億美元這個差價會不會衝擊到我們的台灣本土的農業我想我剛才第一個強調的就是這些產品都是國內自給率非常低的"},{"start":1785.681,"end":1805.821,"text":"所以不會影響到國內產業這些產品進來以後因為當飼料可以降低飼料成本反而是對農民的生產是有利的第三個就是我剛才講的提高25%是用113年當作基準去計算的如果你是以過去的5年去平均的話他大致上還是在維持在4年大概100億左右"},{"start":1806.001,"end":1831.792,"text":"那我們有做這個融資貸款補貼或者保證收購嗎完全沒有都沒有是不是是那我希望這樣啦剩下10幾秒那我希望這個不要搞到我們台灣農民輸然後美國農民贏這樣好嗎不會啦我們自己產業還是要顧好國家利益產業利益為優先農民的安全農民的注意我們會列為優先的考量謝謝謝謝院長好 謝謝邱政經委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（14時30分）老師好。院長好，我們有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是稱邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長好。我想請教一下，我們苗栗的自來水普及率只有87.6%，比全國平均95.5%低了快8%，那我們蔡英文政府在2017年，也就是在自來水普及率93.1%的時候明確定下目標，就是希望2024年能夠達到95%，那KPI設得很清楚，所以從106年到110年，全國普及率升了1.2%，那平均一年成長0.3%，蔡政府這個95%的目標4年就達成了。那我想請問一下，我們賴清德政府有定下這個目標嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們未來有5年計畫，用200億，5年的計畫200億，希望把我們的自來水……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那有沒有算過多少個百分點，要提升多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：好像不到10個百分點。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為苗栗山區比較多，偏遠地區比較多，所以施作上會稍微困難，但是我們會加大力道，新的第五期本來就會加強比較偏遠地區它的額度。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我幫你這個粗算了一下……"],["卓院長榮泰：苗栗會從80%，未來5年，如果我們投入將近18億……"],["邱委員鎮軍：苗栗縣其實有7……"],["卓院長榮泰：80%升高到87%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有大概7個鄉鎮的自來水普及率低於70%，那有2個鄉鎮，其實就是我們部長講的，就是獅潭跟泰安，獅潭只有3.39%，泰安只有2.27%，那當然是因為它是山區，所以這個部分當然我不能這樣拿來比較。我大概算了一下，6萬戶，每戶大概2.4人，大概14.4萬人，全國人口數總共是2,430萬，從普及率95.81%算起，就算是全部接上，5年最多只能變成96.4%，那5年有200億，大概是提升0.6%到0.8%左右。審計部資料說，按照現在的速度，要248年大家才有自來水可以用，你們沒有一個具體的目標嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為在比較偏遠……但是我們這個200億裡面的確有它的分配，比如說原住民地區，它就會分配有一定的額度，不會說這個金額會被其他的挪用走，這是第一個。第二個，如果要完全的接自來水管的話，有時候會有它的困難，那個時間也會拉長……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道。"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我們會趕快用……至少簡易自來水可以，還是可以喝到乾淨的水。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道卓院長上任之後，去年我們整個有調過，本來是每戶60萬，提高到80萬，那水庫周邊變100萬，這個我謝謝院長……"],["龔部長明鑫：這個是金額增加了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我發現這樣速度還是很慢，而且我看那數據非常奇怪，就是提升自來水普及率，照理來說應該要越來越高，可是數據非常奇怪，我們賴總統上任之後，自來水普及率不增反減，這是什麼原因？從113年的6月95.81%起，114年的6月剩下95.55%，為什麼會這樣？這是你們給我的數據。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是持續在增加，所以越到後端它的速度會越慢，因為施工……"],["邱委員鎮軍：普及率為什麼會減少呢？照理說是人口成長才會減少，我們分母也沒變大啊，為什麼這個數字是變小的呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個數字我們再查證一下。"],["龔部長明鑫：我再查證一下，再向委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我猜可能是統計不一樣啦，就是你們統計的方式不一樣。"],["龔部長明鑫：統計的基礎可能會有落差。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是你們換了計算的方式？"],["龔部長明鑫：但是苗栗的這個是以一定的基準，就像您剛才提到的，從80現在變成87嘛，我們會持續地往上……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望是這樣啦，有一些地方是山區，說實在地要把這個管線完全牽完成確實不容易，而且成本非常大。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是有一些人口密集的這個部分，還請行政院這邊多多幫忙。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以剛剛委員也特別提到了，我們把比較偏遠地方的那個金額的最上限調高了，那就……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對、對、對。"],["龔部長明鑫：至少可以把它……"],["邱委員鎮軍：地方上的事情我們會來協助啦！可能中間會牽扯到加壓站什麼的。"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是、是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：至於後期的維護管理，我會協調各鄉鎮市公所來協助，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外同樣是水的問題，這座明德水庫一直負責苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的自來水供應，每天大概供應1.8萬噸的民生用水。"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是、是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：大概有1.6萬戶居民在使用，但是近年來明德水庫的角色其實在改變，中央的政策也非常明確，要朝觀光休憩的使用來轉型。像海棠島要發展水上休憩區，還有環湖步道、自行車步道也都在施工，未來還要結合在地的旅遊和農業的灌溉，這樣的轉型其實我們都樂見，因為它的水質本來就不好。","但我也同樣要考慮一個問題，民生用水怎麼辦？現在是苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的鄉親在使用這個水，我知道我們鯉魚潭水庫的南水北送工程到明年底會全數、全線完成。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有可能到它通水的時候給我們苗栗市跟頭屋鄉的鄉民來使用？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部有一個更長遠的構想跟計畫，就有請部長來答復。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我想明德水庫民生用水的這個部分我們還是希望可以保留啦，因為民生用水還是比較重要的，這是第一個。第二個就是，因為我們也知道縣政府已經針對天花湖的部分有在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，天花湖水庫我們……"],["龔部長明鑫：天花湖水庫蓋好以後，明德水庫的轉型，我們再重新調配就沒有問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可是那沒那麼快啊，對不對？如果……其實這個應該不難，它管線就已經有了嘛！大條管線都有了啊！南水北送其實難度應該不大。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，但是我們還是希望明德水庫還是有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我為什麼要這樣講？我算過，工程送上去每天大概可以供應20萬噸的用水，目前我們的使用率（加上苗栗、頭屋地區）只有1.8萬公噸，未來其實它還有很大的空間可以使用，在短期之內……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，主要是平常都沒有問題啦，但是我們很怕……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們現階段只使用5.5萬噸，再加上1.8萬噸，其實還好耶！"],["龔部長明鑫：因為現在的極端氣候常常會有枯水等等的一些情況，需要調……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣好不好，在平常……你管線有接嘛，對不對？萬一真的碰到這個的時候，我們還可以用明德水庫的水先來應急嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：不然這個部分等我們有一個規劃以後，再跟委員報告一下，看看是怎麼樣的情況，但是我們還是希望，這個明德水庫在短期之內，民生用水的功能或調配的功能還是有它的存在性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，我沒有叫你廢掉啦，只是我為什麼要這樣講？明德水庫現在有環境部列出全臺高度優氧化的水，而且這個水質早就被點名是最差的等級了。苗栗市民跟頭屋鄉的鄉親還在使用這個水，但苗栗可是水庫大縣耶……"],["龔部長明鑫：是，所以我們會把它轉為，比較是作為調度使用的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，那個請……"],["龔部長明鑫：在比較像極端氣候的時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想也沒有理由讓我們繼續喝這個水吧？我沒有叫你現在一定……"],["龔部長明鑫：鯉魚潭的部分蓋好以後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為你有南水北送，所以我才提這個意見，今天如果沒有……當然這個工程太大，可是今天有這個管線，你們回去再來協助，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的、好的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，天花湖水庫在2013年就通過評鑑。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，如果是更長期的，天花湖水庫蓋好以後大概就沒有問題了，就整個可以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我想……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在明德水庫還在供應民生用水的時候，我也要求經濟部和台水確保明德水庫的水質是在我們一定可控安全的情況底下，才能這樣做，這個一定會達到要求。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝，兩個都考慮一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，天花湖水庫2013年就通過環評，地方意見分歧了12年……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，主要是地方的意見。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在鍾縣長上任之後，大家有在協調，地方上也有在溝通，大致上，大概是沒什麼大問題，我想請問一下，現在進度在哪裡？你們預算編列了沒？"],["龔部長明鑫：主要還是地方政府，如果他的意見真的已經溝通好的話，對中央……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們預算編了嗎？今年會編嗎？有編嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：今年的預算……"],["卓院長榮泰：工程的預算還沒有編。"],["龔部長明鑫：工程款還沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你還要徵收，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對呀！對呀！"],["卓院長榮泰：對、對，像土地取得，還有很多的評估要做。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們再跟苗栗縣政府確定一下，如果真的是沒有問題，我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經說了，我記得開了三場的地方說明會了，已經開了三場了……"],["龔部長明鑫：是、是、是，了解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以地方上的聲音不會像上次這樣啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果地方都贊成的話……"],["龔部長明鑫：縣政府有跟我們這樣表達……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想這個很重要……"],["卓院長榮泰：合力來開發的話，我們儘快來處理這個事情……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為天花湖水庫蓋好之後，對我們整個科技產業是非常重要的一個環節……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，沒有錯，是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請教，副總統蕭美琴在接受加拿大媒體專訪說，我們已承諾在美國投資，不只是台積電，還有整個生態系都要過去，就是從供應商到設計商，甚至其他晶片製造公司。我想請問這句「整個生態系」是不是意味著臺灣未來不只台積電赴美，連中游零組件，還有上游材料、IC設計，甚至封裝測試業者，都要過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，事實上，在臺灣的半導體生態體系，基本上，我們的設備和材料也是國外提供的，他們也是來臺灣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是我們未來執政的方向嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有，比如美國應材本來就是在美國，所以他在美國供應給在美國當地的台積電，事實上，也是一個生態體系……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們不擔心臺灣的這整個東西都掏空，跑到美國去，那臺灣怎麼辦呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有、沒有，美國應材不用從臺灣的公司搬東西去美國，因為他本來就是在美國的公司……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們的科技人才過不過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：人才來講的話，我們是第一批去，如果他settle down以後，這些人才是要回來的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望還是要以臺灣為主……"],["龔部長明鑫：當然、當然，立足臺灣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們不要把臺灣這整個最寶貴的東西都拉到美國去，那臺灣到時候什麼都沒有，我們怎麼跟下一代交代？好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：不會、不會，立足臺灣，立足臺灣第一。"],["邱委員鎮軍：再問，桃竹苗大矽谷推動計畫到底有沒有要做？"],["龔部長明鑫：理論上，是在推動，不過這個應該是國發會負責的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼推動？你們在國內說要打造，要發展AI、要留住產業、培養人才，可是在國際場合又說這整個生態系要赴美。"],["卓院長榮泰：桃竹苗大矽谷是我們在六大產業生活圈當中速度跑最快的，經濟部也在推動裡面的太空相關產業，衛福部也在推動關於生醫的產業，另外，數發部和經濟部也在推動生成式AI的應用產業，這個都已經初步在規劃了。現在包括竹南，還有頭份和後龍，三個科學園區，目前他們的土地用地等等還要跟地方政府一併做溝通，還要做一些努力，包括都市計畫變更以及可行性評估，這個都要做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以現在這是由國發會來統籌，是嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，報告委員，其實桃竹苗大矽谷是要中央與地方共同合作，所以國發會成立一個桃竹苗大矽谷的協調平臺，我們會根據地方的這些提案找到權責單位，我們扮演溝通協調的角色，基本上，這個方案是在六大區域產業生活圈裡面，當然中央與地方一定會全力推動。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，當然我看到你有這樣的回答是很高興，但是我看不到你的施政重點裡面哪一頁、哪一條、哪一個項目有出現桃竹苗大矽谷計畫這六個字？都沒有看到。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，我們在六大區域產業生活圈裡面都有提到桃竹苗大矽谷，將來還有很多，包括剛剛你說的鯉魚潭，這個是用水的配套，還有交通的配套，楊頭段的交通配配套將來也會做，另外，在銅鑼設置再生能源中心，國科會也正在規劃當中，這個都是很多配套當中屬於比較重要的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以有沒有針對這個計畫編列預算？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在整個六大產業生活圈當中編列了將近2,900億的預算……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那些本來算是外圍，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：有整合起來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有針對這個計畫來做編……"],["卓院長榮泰：有、有、有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有看到啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們可以另外提供詳細的，在審查預算的過程裡面如果委員有詳細的詢問，未來在真的審查的時候就會得到更詳細的計畫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這中間有開過會嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有開過幾次？"],["卓院長榮泰：很多次，大大小小各種都有，六大產業生活區我們都一直持續的開會，現在整個都已經核定了，桃竹苗大矽谷是其中跑最快的、速度最快的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我知道，包含鯉魚潭水庫延管工程，它是從民國九十幾年就規劃了，國道也是111年才核定的，所以我認為這個大矽谷計畫與周邊當然都有相關聯，沒錯，但是我要講的是，這個部分本來在還沒有大矽谷計畫之前就已經有計畫在做了，我希望能更明確的把大矽谷計畫放在我們整個計畫裡面，讓我們可以追蹤，我們也希望能夠儘快看到一個成果，當然，地方要配合的我們會全力配合。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，這個六大產業生活區是產業與生活的結合，為了要支撐這個，我們有152項以上的地方建設，涵蓋剛剛委員講的，那些都包含在內，如此才能夠讓周邊的各種生活機能跟交通建設跟產業需求符合它的要求，才能夠襯托六大區域同時發展。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝院長。","下一個問題是關於我們苗栗縣亦捷公車停駛，前幾天發生了一件事情，就是新竹客運在9月15日停駛苗栗縣公館與大湖路線，由亦捷科技公司接棒代駛12條客運線，但是現在大環境實在很困難，前幾天突然無預警停駛，當然我也謝謝交通部新竹區監理所有出面來做協調，但這個問題還是存在。這個部分我們是不是有必要要檢討中央補貼公車路線的經費？有沒有希望能夠往上調一點？"],["卓院長榮泰：這部分請陳部長說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們對於路線的補貼目前匡列了3,580萬，目前的運作其實都還正常，只不過這間公司在財務的調度上面確實是有問題，那我們現在有幾個預防的方式，第一個，我們會介入跟了解它發薪水的整體金流狀況，如果有狀況我們會隨時預警，這是第一點。第二點，我們也會跟司機，也就是駕駛員，大家來組一個群組，如果駕駛有反映到這樣的問題，我們會馬上出面接手。第三個，如果真的有這種預警性有可能會停駛的時候，我們有協調了金牌客運和苗栗客運，在它停駛的時候有人可以接手，這是目前我們處理的方式。但根本溯源來講的話，最重要的是這個公司要能夠正常運作、正常營運，所以我們也會看它營運的狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我23號有召開協調會，請部裡面再派人過來。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實我會講這個事情的原因是，五天前它停駛，前兩天晚上我們突然看到它又自行公告又要停駛，因為我們馬上介入才沒有發生。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我會找業者來接手。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我想這個問題還是要解決，因為牽扯到很多老人家、年長者跟一些上班族，他們確實就只能靠那個公車上下班，所以這個還請部長多多協助。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們會隨時注意。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。另外，我再請教院長，關於能源的部分我想確認一件事情，賴清德總統說2030年要投入9,000億推動淨零轉型，請問這跟蔡政府2020年推動的2050年淨零轉型行動方案是一樣的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當中有很多關鍵的基礎建設以及六大部門整個延續性的工作，當然是階段性在進行的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：政策當然要延續啦！但偷換概念就不行，你們這個政府的最大問題就是，有時候聽不太清楚你們講什麼，既然錢都花了，計畫也不是新的，理論上賴總統對外應該告訴大家做了什麼、成果在哪裡，而不是像現在這樣子，一開口動不動就要幾千億，我們真的不知道這些錢要用在哪裡。面對氣候變遷沒有人是局外人，我希望這個事情不要搞到變成每一個人都是受害的。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，不會啦！因為我們是講投入的額度，比如說以離岸風電來講的話，事實上一個風場就要1,000億臺幣，所以只要我們持續推動綠能產業和電動車的話，就會產生出這樣的效果。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我跟你講，2023年全國排碳量大概是2萬7,800萬噸，2024年排碳量升到3萬2,100萬噸，多了5,000萬噸，所以我們的政府花了那麼多錢在淨零，碳排卻越來越高，這個是不是有搞錯方向？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，碳排是明顯的下降，2023年跟2005年相比，減了4.64，所以我們是持續在往下走。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說往下，但我要往後比，2024年為什麼高呢？"],["彭部長啓明：目前來看，我們預期2024年是往下降，而且持續在往下走當中。"],["龔部長明鑫：今年確定會比去年低。"],["邱委員鎮軍：今年確定會比較低？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：2023年的碳排，2022年底你們說減碳有成，但為什麼會比較高？這個數據，你後面再拿給我好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們其實在氣候變遷對策委員會裡面都有特別提到，都有公布這個數字。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我就是抓那上面的資料啊！所以看到它是提高的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，過去這幾年有顯著的下降，目前最新的一筆是2023年。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。審計部報告說得很清楚，台電虧損的主要原因就是外購綠電支出暴增，三年內從588億增加到1,193億。今年台電購電價格，風電每度是6.7，光電是5.3，院長，這樣買電是不是會越來越虧，台電怎麼負擔得了呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：初期的成本當然是要計算比較高一點，但會隨著它的躉售越來越下降。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，現在的綠電很多都不透過台電賣了，因為他們的價錢比較好，是自己供應給需求方。"],["邱委員鎮軍：它直接供應，那線路用誰的？"],["龔部長明鑫：像現在很多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：線路方面，管、電線還是用台電的啊！台電還是要負責維護啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：台電只是收過路費而已，真正的價格是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：它有收過路費嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，有收。"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼收？"],["龔部長明鑫：就是看它應用的距離，比如說某一家公司買的是……假設台積電去購買了一個風場，然後它算它的距離，過路費是多少，它是收這個，但是實際的價格就變成是台積電跟這個風場他們自己去談。"],["邱委員鎮軍：價錢他們自己去談，所以我們都沒介入嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們不會去干涉，因為是民間的，變成是他們民間……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們現在要推光儲結合的政策，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對，儲電。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在光電的收購制度有兩種，第一種沒有儲能系統的台電購價大概是5.43元，第二種有儲能系統的是由能源署開標，得標後再要求台電用保證收購價去跟業者購買，是這樣嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：是這樣，我們事實上是鼓勵發電業者有儲能設施，這樣可以讓……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你跟儲能電廠買多少錢呢？如果是儲能電廠。"],["龔部長明鑫：儲能電廠，我們沒有跟它用這個價錢去買……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我只看到得標是每度電9.59元。"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，委員可能講的是需求的時候，那個時候是競價的時候，就是比較……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，他們最高價是9.59元。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個是需量競價，非常短的時間裡面……"],["卓院長榮泰：緊急調度用的。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，緊急調度用。至於我們現在是買了那個空間……"],["邱委員鎮軍：111年就標了耶！111年就標了，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個我再check一下……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是哪一家公司，你知道嗎？就是雲豹能源北門光儲合一場案場，那是全臺最早一批光儲結合示範場，你們要推，他們早就做好了，就很巧，他的子公司恩富資本在111年那一場競標，標到了目前最高價一度是9.59元，我以這個比例來算，如果這個保證是為了要去買電……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為我們躉售價格……"],["邱委員鎮軍：比一般光電的5.43元高出一倍，比台電自己發電成本高出三倍，在台電繼續虧損的狀況之下，我們還要再漲幾次電？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們躉售價格沒有這樣的價格。"],["卓院長榮泰：不可能達到現在所謂九點多元……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你到時候把資料給我好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，我再……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長也說了，那個可能是需量競價，就是在短時間內就要緊急調度使用，那絕不是長期的合約。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，我再瞭解一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也把你們合約……"],["龔部長明鑫：因為現在的躉售價格事實上是逐漸下降。"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來會簽約嗎？假如說這種部分，會跟廠商簽約嗎？一簽有沒有限定一次一定要多少年？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，我跟委員報告，躉售價格基本上是逐年下降，所以不會出現九塊多的這些狀況。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是說你的合約，合約會不會用綁約，一綁10年、20年？"],["龔部長明鑫：躉售價格是20年，沒有錯，如果是躉售價格，是四塊多、五塊多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！等於台電就是要虧20年，你簽一個約，台電……"],["龔部長明鑫：說老實話，現在需要綠電的人越來越多了，所以非常有可能會超過五塊、六塊，然後他們就會跟台電分手，他們會用他們自己的方法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，你會後再給我資料，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。","另外，我再請教院長關稅的問題，據我們現在的掌握，大家的訊息都停留在20%+N那個階段，請問你具體內容、稅率範圍、談判進度，每次都答不出來。川普宣布關稅之後，我們看到的卻是你們對美方的加碼採購、投資承諾一項接一項，所以我想問的更直接一點，這些加碼採購、投資是不是拿來跟川普政府交換條件？"],["卓院長榮泰：加碼採購跟投資？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：採購是基於我國的各項需求，我們對外國政府做一些採購、外國的民間做任何的採購，一方面是國家的需求，一方面則是我們的財政能力。至於投資，主要的部分是產業自主性的投資比較多，政府沒有辦法指揮產業要去哪裡、投資多少錢、投資什麼產業，但是產業如果有全球性的布局，協助他來做一些行政以及金融保證等方面，政府是可以做的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們在關稅上跟美國談的條件會比別人好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在提出的就是臺灣模式，我想委員也聽過，就是產業自主投資，政府用金融支持來保證，雙方政府、政府之間來談合作，合作什麼？產業聚落。產業聚落的形成需要美方在很多資源、土地跟行政作業上給我們協助，產業聚落未來就形成一個園區，幫助雙方業者共同發展。"],["龔部長明鑫：另外，跟委員報告，關於對等關稅的部分，現在是暫時性的20%，我們希望可以往下降。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望你們是去談判的……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，會往下降。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望我們的代表團是去談判的，不是去美國接任務，好嗎？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是去美國完成國家給的任務，不是去美國接任務，是完成國家的任務。"],["邱委員鎮軍：去美國接美國的任務？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是！"],["邱委員鎮軍：我很擔心是這樣，把臺灣都賣了！"],["龔部長明鑫：我們會談很好的deal回來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再問，產業對美投資4,000億美元，正確嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：產業？對不起！再說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：要對美投資4,000億美元這件事，金額對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在雙方談到的技術性協商當中，當然有提出很多的方案、想法，但目前還沒有哪一部分雙方已經具體互相承諾。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長剛剛說是業者自主……"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們有初步盤點。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到郭智輝前部長說要再加碼2,000億美元，這是真的還假的？"],["卓院長榮泰：那要看業者有沒有這種投資的計畫跟他的能量。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，我們要……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他是幫業者講話囉？"],["龔部長明鑫：主要是業者有這樣的意願、有這樣全球布局的需求，我們會來協助他。我們當然也做過一些盤點來支持產業有這樣的布局，但是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，農業部陳部長不是簽了要買100億美元的農產品嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那不是農業部，那是民間業者。"],["邱委員鎮軍：又是業者自己去的嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我就很好奇，我們這四年要買超過100億美元的黃豆、玉米、小麥、牛肉，比過去平均值增加25%。賴總統在接見美國農業部貿易及對外事業部次長林德伯格時，宣布了臺灣規劃未來四年採購100億美國農產品，是同一件事嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：四年100億美元的採購是由業者因為平均需求而購買的，這是第一個。第二個就是提高25%的計算基準是113年，比113年提高了25%，但是以過去五年平均來看，大致上還是落在過去五年購買的平均水準。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到賴總統還強調，這是提升糧食安全的戰略合作。"],["卓院長榮泰：它有基於我們進口所需要的，也有消費的習慣，還有畜牧業所需要一些肥料的來源。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我會覺得很奇怪，如果這是本來就有的，部長為什麼又說，這樣的承諾有助於臺美關稅的談判？如果只是業者的生意，為什麼要升高到戰略層級？這件事情讓我一直很納悶。"],["陳部長駿季：我們所採購的是我們國內自給率非常低的、平均自給率都在5%以下的，像大豆的話，甚至於自給率只有0.02，相對的，臺灣沒有生產但是需要，特別是飼料用，所以我們進口的東西都是飼料用，反而可以降低我們農民的生產成本。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到平均一年進口量大概19億美元，每一年喔，四年的話也不過到76億，對吧？現在你拉高到100億，就差了25億美元，這個差價會不會衝擊到我們臺灣本土的農業？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才第一個強調的就是這些產品都是國內自給率非常低的，所以不會影響到國內產業，這些產品進來以後因為當飼料可以降低飼料成本，反而對農民的生產是有利的。第三個，就是我剛才講的，提高25%是用113年當作基準去計算的，如果你是以過去五年去平均的話，大致上還是維持在四年大概100億左右。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們有做融資貸款補貼或者保證收購嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：完全沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：都沒有是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望不要搞到我們臺灣農民輸，然後美國農民贏，這樣好嗎？我們自己產業還是要顧好。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會啦！因為……"],["卓院長榮泰：以國家利益、產業利益為優先。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：農民的安全、農民的助益，我們會列為優先的考量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝、謝謝院長。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱鎮軍委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽又來了兩批好朋友們，第一批是馬偕醫護管理學校所有的同學，未來的白衣天使，我們掌聲歡迎。第二批在議場二樓旁聽的是來自美麗又辛苦的花蓮縣所有的婦女朋友們，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來，我們請吳沛憶委員質詢，馬文君委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164473","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164473","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f03bec565e1b0b5e2ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d2c13a165974515a3f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"11:34:31 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交通部長更正麻煩請交通部長備詢部長"},{"start":24.431,"end":45.862,"text":"這個新北市這個太阪輕軌的這個他們的規劃路線已經報佈了嗎報告委員他們有報佈目前是在可行性研究當中那鐵道局也正在審查當中其實這條路線部長應該也知道啦這個我已經"},{"start":48.393,"end":76.99,"text":"很久很久就在關注這一條你也跟我討論過好幾次本來是從社後捷運變社後輕軌然後現在又延伸到這個太阪輕軌當初其實我也跟吳部長跟林佳龍部長其實也爭取了我們交通部給他們好幾百萬的可行性評估計畫的經費可行性評估的預算"},{"start":79.434,"end":100.688,"text":"而且我也多次的質詢比如說在2023年9月17號我們前交通部王國才部長他就有說要將社後支線納入太阪輕軌規劃案的條件之一"},{"start":102.248,"end":126.098,"text":"這王國才部長有講的然後在2023年10月17號我對在總質詢的時候呢王國才部長也在這邊也是說公開說我們會支持這個社會輕軌而且呢陳建仁那時候院長他也說確實有必要那時候的院長"},{"start":127.492,"end":133.891,"text":"跟交通部部長都說要支持而且經費也都準備好了那時候都有這樣說"},{"start":136.125,"end":162.49,"text":"我在2024年的3月8號我也就再次的質詢那時候王部長又公開說了他們提出來中央該給多少補助就給多少補助這是沒有問題的錢都準備好了現在他們報上來這裡我不知道部長他們有沒有把社後輕軌納入"},{"start":164.498,"end":192.438,"text":"報告委員目前我們在太阪的輕軌的部分可行線研究裡面確實是有留這個岔道也就是說未來我們的這個延伸射後線的這個延伸的部分是有留這個可能性這個可能性是有留著但目前新北市政府給我們的回報是說目前還沒有找到適合的路還沒有找到適合的路不過委員剛剛在講的沒有錯就是過去您在委員會質詢也好或者是說"},{"start":193.078,"end":208.007,"text":"您也有找我討論過這個事情交通部目前的立場也沒有改變對於這件事情我們依然是支持希望可以做得到我要在這邊跟部長您說一下來 你看一下這個"},{"start":211.892,"end":228.958,"text":"就是原來王國才部長等等的那時候我們費了很大的心力這個是規劃路線什麼都有了所以新北市政府是不是公然欺騙所有的市民他們說沒有規劃路線"},{"start":231.617,"end":241.681,"text":"這都在這裡喔他們公然欺騙喔 對不對這個他們現在新北市政府說預留廊道跟預留轉接點"},{"start":243.946,"end":268.619,"text":"有預留就是現在不做而已啊要等以後做嘛 對不對是不是這個意思我們要預留未來的可能性就是希望未來可以做社後支線的這個部分對嘛 這是新北市政府態度不是交通部的態度新北市政府是說未來再做吧他的意思是這樣嘛沒錯嘛好 所以我一直覺得這個要一併處理"},{"start":270.883,"end":295.824,"text":"我希望我們交通部要堅持立場一併處理我為什麼要這樣子講因為新北市政府一直欺騙新北市市民說規劃路線是在中正路中正路太小了他隱瞞了這條路線不讓新北市的市民知道早就有這條路線為什麼很簡單這是我的政見在選舉的時候"},{"start":299.113,"end":324.541,"text":"另外一個國民黨的人他是反對社會有捷運的啊對不對我們不能為了選舉然後模式的我們板橋我們社會十幾萬居民的權利對不對吧部長所有的交通建設尤其是像板橋這麼人口擁擠跟密集的地方我相信很多的市民跟鄉親都很期待有更好的交通建設這個我們要一起來努力"},{"start":325.612,"end":344.051,"text":"對 我跟你講建設是不分黨派的我覺得我們尤其是中央政府我們一定要照顧所有的人我不反對太本輕軌的建設但交通部從以前到現在就已經一句話而已你新北市你報上來我錢就給你了"},{"start":345.214,"end":361.524,"text":"對不對但是新北市政府刻意不把這個路線劃進去他是對不起我們新北市市民尤其是我們板橋的市民他可能也覺得他任期快到了他剩下的做也沒多久了"},{"start":362.845,"end":386.288,"text":"那如果這樣的話不能對不起我們新北市民尤其是板橋市民啊交通部的錢都準備好了我們應該要求他把這條路線規劃進來啊我不知道部長你的看法我們目前正在審查當中針對這個太阪輕軌的部分那當時我們交通部確實也有希望說把涉後的延伸線的部分也一併進來"},{"start":387.529,"end":396.115,"text":"那目前當然我們還在審查的過程當中我們去了解說審查的必要條件是哪些如果這一條是重要我們當然會一併希望他能夠一併討論"},{"start":398.288,"end":419.117,"text":"我希望是這一點交通部要堅持要堅持這一條一定要放下來你這麼多錢都放下去了你新北市政府他現在預留一個廊道預留一個轉接口那未來如果要再二次施工這個工程會比現在一次性的施工"},{"start":420.578,"end":434.531,"text":"更好還是更不好當然是一次性施工大家可以更早完成這件事當然是比較好的而且工程的技術門檻也比較低吧一起規劃吧 對不對所以部長我必須要在這邊要跟你說這個要堅持住"},{"start":439.476,"end":456.614,"text":"這個要堅持住不能讓新北市亂搞也不能讓我們板橋在這邊十幾萬而且現在是十幾萬喔在未來人口會更多那邊是重劃區而且現在板南縣每天大家都"},{"start":457.834,"end":483.209,"text":"車子都搭不上捷運吧 這部長你知道吧都非常的擁擠不只擁擠喔 是坐不上去喔我也開過好多次 開過協調會你們的人應該有跟你講過啦所以 部長我們可不可以堅持好 這個部分我們來堅持好 謝謝你喔那我不好意思 我請一下卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":492.193,"end":511.153,"text":"謝謝張委員好不好意思這個院長剛剛我跟陳部長講的院長都有聽到我真的是希望說這個交通部我們陳部長剛剛也有說了那我也要在這邊再拜託這院長我們的施政我們的建設我們的補助"},{"start":511.934,"end":532.081,"text":"真的要以人民需求來考量啦我們不能為了新北市政府他自己的選舉去幫他背書啦我真的要拜託院長也支持陳部長這個我們的對這個色後輕軌的這一個態度我不知道院長能不能支持我替我們板橋民眾說一下話"},{"start":534.102,"end":563.126,"text":"不只交通部 我想我們整個市政都是以人民的需求為出發點不會考慮到黨派或選舉的各項的利益跟因素不不不 現在是新北市在考慮黨派跟選舉我們不會考慮啦 我們不會考慮所以我希望院長能夠堅持啦替我們板橋的市民 某一點公平啦如果部裡面可以主動詢問 主動關心或主動做一些動作的話也可以這麼去主動跟新北市政府來說要求溝通"},{"start":563.706,"end":585.3,"text":"好 謝謝院長院長你先請坐沒有關係你先坐一下再來 部長我上次有質詢高鐵進勞卡可不可以搭高鐵這件事我不知道高鐵這邊他們研議的如何部長導考"},{"start":586.314,"end":607.566,"text":"報告委員我目前在設備上面應該是沒有問題就是說如果是要那個卡包含悠遊卡也好或者是銀行的聯名卡如果把敬老的這個點數放在裡面要用這個卡是沒有問題但是敬老的點數到底可不可以使用在這裡面可能我們需要跨單位大家來溝通這個部長"},{"start":610.239,"end":634.398,"text":"之前台鐵可以用敬老卡搭台鐵也是我努力了5、6年才可以搭的我跟你講一個很簡單台鐵為什麼現在台鐵當初也是這樣講這個敬老卡到底怎麼樣怎麼樣他們沒有辦法控制不過還是上次我諮詢說你只要把它建制完成"},{"start":635.441,"end":643.591,"text":"我跟你講地方政府人家就會做台鐵非常明顯的例子就在這裡了而且我上次有"},{"start":645.102,"end":671.532,"text":"總諮詢的時候這個左院長也說要支持因為我們花的錢不多7000多萬而已對不對在整個政府裡面的總預算7000多萬其實我認為是還合理然後讓我們所有的長者進勞卡他可以去搭高鐵我跟你講地方政府就會配合台鐵一開始也說沒有結果人家現在有的縣市"},{"start":673.032,"end":689.257,"text":"一個月可以有300點搭台鐵了那如果你把它建置好人家有的縣市人家有的有1000多有的有多少人家他要500點可以搭高鐵他就可以搭一趟了我真的覺得說要讓"},{"start":691.156,"end":718.358,"text":"長者有方便性我不知道布政你的看法包委員我覺得這個方便性可以提供的話我們當然要盡量來做目前其實不管是用悠遊卡或者是一卡通只要是跟銀行有聯名的儲值的功能在高鐵上面坐自由座是可以用的所以縣市政府如果他的敬老卡是綁悠遊卡或者是綁一卡通基本上現在要搭自由座是可以的"},{"start":719.886,"end":736.866,"text":"我知道那個是有的縣市並不是所有的縣市我們只要花了這7000多萬我們把跟台鐵一樣你把這個建制好了我的所有的敬老卡我都可以去搭高鐵"},{"start":737.927,"end":756.156,"text":"我覺得把它建制好台灣是一個進步的國家我們花了這些錢把這個把它建制好地方政府就會配合了啊我的意思是這樣部長你懂嗎我在態度上是支持啦我在態度上支持我來跟高鐵公司來這邊演繹看看"},{"start":756.876,"end":775.034,"text":"因為畢竟他們是上市櫃公司我們來跟他們研議看看看可不可以做這方面的服務報告委員這個在推動電子票證的過程我們必須努力如果電子票證的推動過程加上系統的前後台都能夠完整的話那目前台鐵的進導塔也只有12個縣市是開放的"},{"start":777.156,"end":793.438,"text":"那我們去了解一下台鐵這樣的經驗推動到現在的經驗或許朝這個方向已經是有一個可以依循的方式我請交通部你們就去排除現在的困難我想下次在面對委員質詢之前我們應該把這個事情做一個定案"},{"start":795.3,"end":812.253,"text":"其實問題不困難解決啦交通部你只要補助高鐵這筆錢就問題解決了啦就是很簡單的一句話嘛你補助他做 他就做了嘛 對不對那我覺得這個補助雖然他是一個民營上市貴的公司"},{"start":813.334,"end":837.823,"text":"他是全台灣人都在通用的我覺得這一點可能要拜託了好不好好 謝謝請回 院長你也請回我再請一下文化部長麻煩請文化部長備選部長我想請問一下我們板橋兒童未來館現在的進度如何"},{"start":839.022,"end":857.864,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心這個一切都按照原來進度最近我們跟新北市政府也開了很多會對於很多細部的動線都討論完今年9月1號國家人口未來管理新建工程基地的一個勘察由行政院公共委員會來勘察過"},{"start":859.365,"end":860.306,"text":"建造的取得會不會有問題"},{"start":880.458,"end":908.084,"text":"到目前為止一切按照進度中間有一些細節我已經跟新北市討論了很多原來有一些小小的困難那空橋的問題解決了嗎也是在 對因為原來這幾個問題都滿困難但新北市政府也全力協調我們協助我們所以到目前為止一切都按照原定計畫沒有問題所以建造拿到的日期不會拖延喔"},{"start":909.604,"end":924.627,"text":"不會 到目前我們就按照進度我只問建造拿到的日期會不會拖延會不會拖延啦 我們盡快按照我們原來的進度嘛這個會不會拖延是要審查那個部長我知道你也不是建築專家好 謝謝張宏祿委員質詢謝謝卓院長各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（11時34分）先請交通部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長。"],["張委員宏陸：不，是交通部長。"],["主席：更正，麻煩請交通部長備詢。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，新北市泰板輕軌的規劃路線已經報部了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他們有報部，目前是在可行性研究當中，鐵道局也正在審查當中。"],["張委員宏陸：其實這條路線部長應該也知道，我已經很久很久都在關注這一條啦。"],["陳部長世凱：對，您也跟我討論過好幾次。"],["張委員宏陸：本來是從社後捷運變社後輕軌，然後現在又延伸到泰板輕軌。當初我也跟吳部長、林佳龍部長爭取，交通部給他們好幾百萬可行性評估計畫的經費。"],["陳部長世凱：可行性評估的預算。"],["張委員宏陸：而且我也多次的質詢，譬如說，在2023年9月17日前交通部王國材部長就有說，要將社後支線納入泰板輕軌規劃案的條件之一，這是王國材部長有講的；然後2023年10月17日在我總質詢的時候，王國材部長也在這邊公開說我們會支持社後輕軌，而且那時候陳建仁院長也說確實有必要，那時候的院長跟交通部部長都說要支持，而且是經費也都準備好了，那時候都有這樣說；我在2024年3月8日再次質詢，那時候王部長又公開說了，他們提出來，中央該給多少補助就給多少補助，這是沒有問題的，錢都準備好了。現在他們報上來這裡，部長，我不知道他們有沒有把社後輕軌納入？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前在泰板輕軌的可行性研究裡面確實是有留這個岔道，也就是說，未來社後線的延伸部分是有留這個可能性，這個可能性是有留著，但新北市政府給我們的回報是說，目前還沒有找到適合的路。不過委員剛剛講的沒有錯，就是過去您在委員會質詢也好，或者是說您也有找我討論過這個事情，交通部目前的立場也沒有改變，對於這件事情，我們依然是支持，希望可以做得到。"],["張委員宏陸：我要在這邊跟部長您說一下，你看一下這個規劃路線，這個就是原來王國材部長等等，那時候我們費了很大的心力，規劃路線什麼都有了，所以新北市政府是不是公然欺騙所有的市民？他們說沒有規劃路線，但都在這裡囉，他們公然欺騙喔！對不對？現在新北市政府預留廊道跟預留轉接點，有預留就是現在不做而已啊，要等以後做嘛，對不對？是不是這個意思？"],["陳部長世凱：我們要預留未來的可能性，就是希望未來可以做社後支線的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，這是新北市政府的態度，不是交通部的態度，新北市政府是說未來再做吧，它的意思是這樣，沒錯嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：好，所以我一直覺得這個要一併處理，我希望交通部要堅持立場，一併處理。我為什麼要這樣子講？因為新北市政府一直欺騙新北市市民，說規劃路線是在中正路啦，中正路太小啦，它隱瞞了這條路線，不讓新北市的市民知道早就有這條路線。為什麼？很簡單啊，這是我的政見啊！在選舉的時候，另外一個國民黨的人是反對社後有捷運的啊！我們不能為了選舉，然後漠視了我們板橋、社後十幾萬居民的權利，對不對？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，所有的交通建設，尤其是像板橋人口這麼擁擠跟密集的地方，我相信很多的市民跟鄉親都很期待有更好的交通建設，這個我們要一起來努力。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我跟你講，建設是不分黨派的啦！我覺得尤其是中央政府，我們一定要照顧所有的人。我不反對泰板輕軌的建設，但交通部從以前到現在就一句話而已：你新北市報上來，我錢就給你。對不對？但是新北市政府刻意不把這個路線劃進去，它對不起我們新北市市民，尤其是我們板橋的市民。他可能覺得自己的任期快到了，再做也沒多久了啦！如果這樣的話，不能對不起我們新北市民，尤其是板橋的市民啊！交通部的錢都準備好了，我們應該要求他把這條路線規劃進來啊！我不知道部長的看法？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前正在審查當中，針對這個泰板輕軌的部分，當時我們交通部確實有希望社後延伸線的部分也一併進來，目前當然我們還在審查的過程當中，我們會去瞭解審查的必要條件是哪些，如果這一條是重要的，我們當然會希望它能夠一併討論。"],["張委員宏陸：我希望交通部要堅持這一條一定要放進來，這麼多錢都放下去了，新北市政府現在預留一個廊道、預留一個轉接口，未來如果要再二次施工，這個工程會比現在一次性施工更好還是更不好？"],["陳部長世凱：當然是一次性施工，大家可以更早完成這件事，當然是比較好的。"],["張委員宏陸：而且工程的技術門檻也比較低吧？因為一起規劃嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：當然、當然。"],["張委員宏陸：所以部長，我必須在這邊跟你說，這個要堅持住啦！"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來討論。"],["張委員宏陸：不能讓新北市亂搞啦！也不能我們板橋這邊，現在是十幾萬人口，未來人口會更多，因為那邊是重劃區，而且現在板南線大家每天都搭不上捷運，這個狀況部長知道吧？"],["陳部長世凱：都非常擁擠。"],["張委員宏陸：不只擁擠，是坐不上去喔！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我也為此開過協調會，你們的人應該有跟你講過。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以部長可不可以堅持？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們來堅持。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝你。","不好意思，我請一下卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：不好意思，院長，剛剛我跟陳部長講的，院長都有聽到啦？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我真的是希望能這樣。交通部陳部長剛剛也說了，我也要在這邊再拜託院長，我們的施政、我們的建設、我們的補助真的要以人民需求來考量，不能為了新北市政府他自己的選舉去幫他背書，我真的要拜託院長支持陳部長對社後輕軌的態度。不知道院長能不能支持我，替我們板橋民眾說一下話？"],["卓院長榮泰：不只交通部，我們整個施政都是以人民的需求為出發點，不會考慮到黨派或選舉的各項利益跟因素。"],["張委員宏陸：不、不、不！現在是新北市在考慮黨派跟選舉。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不會考慮。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我希望院長能夠堅持……"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["張委員宏陸：替我們板橋的市民謀求一點公平啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果部裡面可以主動詢問、主動關心或主動做一些動作的話，可以主動跟新北市政府要求溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["張委員宏陸：院長，你先請坐。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有關係、沒有關係。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有，你先坐一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有關係、沒有關係，沒問題。"],["張委員宏陸：接下來，部長，我上次也有質詢敬老卡可不可以搭高鐵這件事，不知道高鐵他們研議得如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前在設備上面應該是沒有問題，就是說如果是要那個卡，包含悠遊卡也好，或者是銀行的聯名卡，如果把敬老的點數放在裡面，要用這個卡是沒有問題，但是敬老的點數到底可不可以使用在這裡面，需要跨單位大家來溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，之前可以用敬老卡搭臺鐵也是我努力了五、六年才可以搭的，我跟你講一個很簡單的，臺鐵為什麼現在可以？臺鐵當初也是這樣講，說這個敬老卡到底怎麼樣、怎麼樣，他們沒有辦法控制。不過還是上次我質詢說的，你只要把它建置完成，我跟你講，地方政府人家就會做，臺鐵非常明顯的例子就在這裡，而且我上次總質詢的時候，卓院長也說要支持，因為我們花的錢不多，七千多萬而已，對不對？在整個政府總預算裡面的七千多萬，其實我認為是還合理。然後讓我們所有長者的敬老卡可以去搭高鐵，我跟你講，地方政府就會配合，臺鐵一開始也說沒有，結果現在有的縣市一個月可以有300點搭臺鐵了，如果你把它建置好，有的縣市有一千多、有的有多少，人家要500點可以搭高鐵，他就可以搭一趟了。我真的覺得要讓長者有方便性，我不知道部長的看法如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得這個方便性可以提供的話，我們當然要儘量來做，目前其實不管是用悠遊卡或者是一卡通，只要是跟銀行有聯名的儲值功能，在高鐵上面坐自由座是可以用的，所以如果縣市政府的敬老卡是綁悠遊卡或者是綁一卡通，基本上現在要搭自由座是可以的。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，那是有的縣市，並不是所有的縣市。我們只要花了這七千多萬，跟臺鐵一樣把這個建置好了，所有的敬老卡都可以去搭高鐵，我覺得把它建置好。臺灣是一個進步的國家，我們花了這些錢把它建置好，地方政府就會配合了啊！我的意思是這樣，部長你懂嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我在態度上是支持，我來跟高鐵公司這邊研議看看，因為畢竟他們是上市櫃公司，我們來跟他們研議看看，看可不可以做這方面的服務。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在推動電子票證的過程我們必須努力，如果電子票證的推動過程加上系統的前後臺都能夠完整的話，目前臺鐵的敬老卡也只有12個縣市是開放的，我們去了解一下臺鐵推動到現在的經驗，或許朝這個方向已經是有一個可以依循的方式，我請交通部去排除那些困難，我想在下次面對委員質詢之前，我們應該把這個事情做一個定案。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["張委員宏陸：好啦，這要拜託啦。其實問題不困難解決，交通部只要補助高鐵這筆錢，問題就解決了，就是很簡單的一句話嘛！你補助它做，它就做了，對不對？我覺得這個補助雖然是一個民營、上市櫃的公司，但它是全臺灣人都在通用的，我覺得這一點可能要拜託啦，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝，請回，院長你也請回。","我再請一下文化部長。"],["主席：麻煩請文化部長備詢。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，我想請問一下，我們板橋兒童未來館現在的進度如何？"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員關心。這個一切都按照原來進度，最近我們跟新北市政府也開了很多會，對於很多細部的動線都討論完，今年9月1日國家兒童未來館新建工程基地的勘查，由行政院公共委員會來勘查過，細部的審查也提出意見，那麼我們同步的設計，也已經進行到細部設計，目前一切按照原訂計畫，在2026年完成建築設計，交由內政部國土管理署辦理工程招標，預計在2030年完工。"],["張委員宏陸：建照的取得會不會有問題？"],["李部長遠：到目前為止，一切按照進度，中間有一些細節，我已經跟新北市討論了很多，原來有一些小小的困難……"],["張委員宏陸：空橋的問題解決了嗎？"],["李部長遠：對，因為原來這幾個問題都滿困難，但新北市政府也全力協助我們，所以到目前為止一切都按照原訂計畫，沒有問題。"],["張委員宏陸：所以建照拿到的日期不會拖延？"],["李部長遠：不會。"],["張委員宏陸：絕對不會？"],["李部長遠：到目前我們就按照進度，明年……"],["張委員宏陸：我只問建照拿到的日期會不會拖延？"],["李部長遠：關於建照拿到會不會拖延，我們會儘快按照我們原來進度……"],["張委員宏陸：我跟你講，我知道有……"],["李部長遠：會不會拖延是審查的……"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，部長，我知道你也不是建築專業，但有一些問題亟待我們解決啦！"],["李部長遠：沒問題，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及各相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，議場二樓旁聽席又來了一批好朋友，是臺北市陳炳甫議員志工團的好朋友，我們掌聲歡迎。","今天上午的質詢到此為止，謝謝林月琴委員、羅廷瑋委員一起參與上午行政院院長的施政質詢。上午質詢到此為止，下午2時30分繼續開會，進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","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謝謝主席 我們請院長再請總院長備詢"},{"start":26.109,"end":44.284,"text":"主委好 院長辛苦了第一個問題因為時間有限我們藝人 藝人 表演家散兵平船今天又有多名藝人被逮捕約談甚至上手銬我比較訝異的是"},{"start":46.872,"end":65.283,"text":"這些人有的扶過替代役不是我做替代役也讓認為是閃兵不是跳傘的閃兵 是閃的閃兵那是不是我們在替代役的資格審查上面有漏洞 一定有"},{"start":67.112,"end":87.837,"text":"你也不知道喔今天這個案子我是不曉得但是無論是一般的服役或是替拜役都是國民應盡的義務我認為站在國民的立場上跟國家立場上國民盡這個義務的時候應該要勇敢的承擔那執行過程當中我認為這個警察機關自有他的衡量"},{"start":89.915,"end":105.055,"text":"這是 我做海流案所以我看到就說我做兵 看到就說我抄現在有替代 什麼一堆大堆這是認定上 什麼不斷這個是一個妨礙兵役的那個今天是具體 那個不是逮捕那我想這個是屬於"},{"start":106.964,"end":131.998,"text":"進行好幾波的一個妨礙兵役案件的一個偵辦像是那個王姓藝人那個已經都起訴了那我想這個是此往不可長這個服兵役是國民應盡的一個義務我想這是憲法也有規定那這個是屬於一個妨礙兵役這個是一個執行的一個方式"},{"start":133.347,"end":158.829,"text":"如果是逃避兵役那是嚴重啦如果你是一般的單兵的體會有什麼問題就要替代體會國民的義務這個是一樣的這個都是服兵役嘛服的類種不一樣但是站在憲法上國民應經義務的這個憲法的精神規範是一樣的這個搞清楚之後我們來辦公室來討論一下好不好 副長"},{"start":162.201,"end":180.915,"text":"這個我想這個是個案的這是個案我們尊重這個整個兵役的一個制度我想這個是屬於不是我們法務部主管法規我們就是按照妨礙兵役違反妨礙兵役跟偽造文書這部分我們來做一個偵辦那我想這是個案我們也尊重檢察官的一個偵辦的一個職權"},{"start":184.551,"end":197.639,"text":"好 謝謝那再來就是運動部的問題運動部也成立不久 不忍苛責啦免卡 免卡 免卡剛才黃文凱問很多所以你們現在足協啊"},{"start":198.786,"end":222.133,"text":"弊端一大堆 這個我們請運動部的人到辦公室我們研究人就討論一下請委員多多支持這個事件剛好給運動部成立之後一個全新的運動部面對一個老問題啊 如何來解決我想全社會全國都在看未來運動部要大力的整頓各單項協會這是一個很好的一個起點雖然案件對我們來講蠻痛心的"},{"start":223.453,"end":236.548,"text":"但是利用這個案件能夠大力的整頓從此開始行政院全力支持運動部做這樣的改革好 就新的一個部會那再來我們再講天災我們請農業跟經濟部麻煩請農業部長 經濟部長備詢"},{"start":242.482,"end":257.278,"text":"我剛才就向他請教過我們天蓋農損都用我們的農業成本的百分之二十動作是我們的補助 動作是我們的農損前面他就說了 我們陳副長也有說說這要研究 這要調整 我在那裡想不通"},{"start":263.484,"end":273.328,"text":"你的農損用你的成本的20%當作農損所以你秀出來的data都是很低那這個農業損失只有5倍"},{"start":277.04,"end":294.779,"text":"譬如說你屏東你跟我說一件一頁、兩頁那社長他的生意只剩分十頁啊那如果剛才教委員講的說他的收益一分之一一分之一一分之一的預貨包你給他補六千塊、八千塊"},{"start":296.4,"end":305.629,"text":"事實上他如果好好地修繩可以修20萬至30萬所以差太多了我常常會想你這個修到這麼高是要標示什麼標示說我們損失很輕微這個不對啦你一定會說要調整一定 我有調整嗎"},{"start":313.777,"end":328.29,"text":"我先跟委員報告就是我們現在的那個天然災害救助的辦法我們會在年底因為我們每半年就會檢討一次年底的時候我們會檢討會重新修正但是我要跟委員報告一個精神天然災害救助的精神"},{"start":328.971,"end":352.22,"text":"它本身是希望它盡快的復耕而且天然災害的發生了以後它不是全員當然有少部分比較嚴重會全員損毀大部分的話像果樹的話它可能第一次花被打掉第二次還會再開花所以它有不同的樣態所以我們會根據不同的樣態去設計第二個部分要跟委員報告以這次從丹納斯颱風到楊柳颱風那個花家山還不談"},{"start":353.32,"end":362.086,"text":"我們大概現金救助會發放大概65億65.5億然後實際的損失大概是4倍啦實際的整個農業損失大概4倍將近250億到300億之間這是他說的最先賺先賺20%的"},{"start":369.963,"end":386.309,"text":"一定,那個水上他的生殖是五倍嘛如果再叫市民上來收養,那不算了,不廢了但是每次秀到這麼多,都...這不是正常啦有人覺得說,怎麼沒什麼啊,水上這麼嚴重那農民都要吃土啊"},{"start":387.589,"end":405.418,"text":"不過報告委員這個面對極端氣候政府當然是想大力的來協助農民但考慮到國家的財政的結構跟能力我們做這樣的方式但未來他在復耕的過程當中我們還有很多的獎勵措施還可以再協助他能夠盡快的恢復正常"},{"start":409.74,"end":413.823,"text":"所以杯水車薪三百萬農漁牧的農民連續受准的部分我們也會納在今年年底的修正裡面一併去調整"},{"start":429.577,"end":449.397,"text":"我土韌性 什麼有些都一樣但是在你講韌性韌性所以我非常的期待我們院長我會去我店間說你還在做筆記的 不錯啊農業部年底會來做合理的一個檢討跟修正我們現在說的最實際的緊張起來 這叫做緊張起來"},{"start":452.779,"end":478.108,"text":"一定你可能不知道 你們都沒有這麼緊張我小時候都很緊張的這緊張起來以前是用風胎走到北的北緊張以前是用頂的 都用頂三年來現在都用阿公 女子的那也有高的跟薄的薄的一支也是 薄的一支三百二十五塊那些都我們如果高的 都要賺多少呢部長啊"},{"start":482.153,"end":505.048,"text":"你現在剝走 剝走什麼 你知道嗎剝走說要有有機的 要有履歷的 你才要剝走我告訴你 台獨所有農民都正常要兩分 三分沒有履歷 沒有有機 他們就燒燒的搞火花來消為主 這些人你不要剝走你算剝走 我們剝走那些大農戶那些做台湯 20公頃 30公頃的那些你剝走那些錢 你就好了 你說給你更好了要吃土 都在你吃土"},{"start":512.453,"end":541.272,"text":"那不行啦我跟委員 你講的邏輯有點不正確我要跟委員報告就是說我們在補助的過程中也希望調整農民的一個更進步的耕作方式所以我們針對產交履歷產交履歷我們會專案輔導產交履歷是一個讓整個的產品可以追溯讓它品質更好的方式不然我們補助下去過往曾經補顧過一次結果第二年這些牙管都被拿去賣了"},{"start":542.594,"end":565.596,"text":"這個是很實際的問題所以我們希望說用產交履歷去做一些現在的農民 經濟 財產 都需要育苗的所在一棟是5棵30棵你再來 我也不太清楚啦我不是沒有在做所以我要跟你說的就是這些農民帶多少你要補助 你就要給他們補助不是說 交苗我們有補助啊"},{"start":567.308,"end":588.713,"text":"沒有啊 你就這麼多農民反彈高秋一四個大家都走到要死了再查一下 好不好 否定這要收農 這要都是我們要照顧的那個大農夫不需要照顧啦 他活得很好生啦再來 我們這間洋流颱風啦什麼農田損失的啦 農業損失的忙啊都漸漸有在復原啊 對不對 部長 有在復原嗎"},{"start":595.759,"end":616.007,"text":"因為網市什麼的這個網市的部分我們現在特別是針對現在還找不到工有沒有的這些網市我們都另外提供獎勵金讓他先把他的網子透過回收場回收所以這個部分我想我們已經積極在做而且是提供八成的一個補助八成的補助"},{"start":617.807,"end":636.438,"text":"農田水利署在這次丹納斯颱風整個提供了76.82億那76.82億是由地方政府提報上來的然後這個部分我們也已經地方政府已經提報計畫了然後我們會在近短的時間內核定以後就可以開始施工因為我們柏町是很認真的"},{"start":640.339,"end":668.637,"text":"各種補助的反應措施變化的這個彈性相當大又快速災難一直來這種災難是一直來誰執政都一樣啦全球氣候變遷所以我們現在一天一天在說國土任性任性 任性這真的就要用 用膽分啦這不是這樣親切公共的來 再來今天節目很多防災任性這間的我們"},{"start":670.18,"end":676.665,"text":"休旅遊、自來水,我非常感謝議長和經濟部。小溜球現在一年的企業有200萬人,在地長租人口差不多1萬人,社體人口1萬多。"},{"start":688.653,"end":708.199,"text":"原來的一個池水池是自來水的 是五千噸現在電鍋要再六成一個五千多噸這樣就要滿多噸這大家很會任性大家安心 不會欠電 又欠水所以很感謝議長 那天你就不去所以我要再說的就是這末端水口的水"},{"start":715.219,"end":741.92,"text":"經過車廂 經過房商在開放後來到那邊再到分櫃的收入區往北 東港 臨海那裡去來到一百公里以前水工都掛在舊的旁邊舊燈就在燈現在我們主要的水工是自己用水管橋做得不錯所以看到有在保養一百公里 所以"},{"start":742.93,"end":760.92,"text":"我們修理區有儲水設施我是要建議 還是要請求我們的議長你幫我代言一下 檳榔這裡天氣八八風災天天天四天 天水天八天那已經是人壽的最高極限了"},{"start":761.733,"end":787.666,"text":"我跟院長包括那個社會媒體醫院都開放讓外面的人來洗澡我那邊有地下水 還有我們八軍團的來一四個又去高手那裡買水我那裡買水就買一百多萬一三天再水下來 頂頂 這都是這過去 但是我是要建議說剛才台北我那裡找地 我們去一個儲水槽我那裡有經濟部 出一下我們 習慣東 習慣東 我老婆"},{"start":791.018,"end":813.148,"text":"我們來評估看看如果適合的地方我們來評估這有需要啦 不會鞠躬勒勒躬來高壓 要躺下去就沒了水也沒人吃 所以這很重要啦所以硬硬沒問題吧我請部長來評估 因應當地的需要看這邊要克服一些其他的困難如果更多又更好"},{"start":816.721,"end":836.121,"text":"我們現在一整晚大家都在擦光電板上 有什麼什麼的然後我們的環境部長跟我說他跟我說水口 製紡池 水池 水庫裡面有在做環評的 寫給沒有人做 結果沒有"},{"start":839.312,"end":858.01,"text":"我們常常查 新加坡有在做 韓國有在做印尼也有在做 印尼喔所以 要返品啦你都沒在返品啊 路上也沒在返品河山場裡面也沒在返品 都沒在返品這樣有什麼什麼的 很好"},{"start":861.481,"end":884.984,"text":"委員我介紹一下 你說新加坡跟印尼跟韓國是自己做 但是政府並沒有規範是多少但是我們政府要規定幾分及格 他們是沒有規定幾分及格所以我們早就有關注到這件事情了目前全世界的標準是還沒有 但是他是自己做"},{"start":885.905,"end":906.397,"text":"現在我們的光電在自動式燈頭、在對面燈頭會汙染,剛才我們農業部長在裡面說沒有汙染,明明就是路上的光電板,因為有焦、曬、有什麼火,所以用清潔劑來沖、來洗,這也舒適。你說在水庫、在自動式燈頭,你都用清水來沖,自動式燈頭就沒有焦,去放曬了。"},{"start":913.243,"end":917.572,"text":"他有用高壓水或低壓水來沖洗啊 這個是允許的有嘛 所以"},{"start":925.489,"end":948.142,"text":"他如果要比較嚴格就是說這個清潔劑是要用分解有機的 要燒的環境部你還要好好研究他媽就說都沒有 都沒有水源區都不可以啦都不可以啦 清潔力都不可以 清水而已任何清潔劑都不行都要用清水煮而已 煮牛裡面水煮他用高壓的 高壓水噴啦"},{"start":949.675,"end":969.988,"text":"這樣路上會想 路上沒水所以路上要有清潔劑 一定是不是這樣說應該是這個邏輯啦 要有水體 要高壓把它裝下去就像這邊在花蓮在清高壓水槍一樣 就能夠清得出來事實上用清潔劑也不是很好如果不好的清潔劑還會傷害你的那個面板"},{"start":971.013,"end":994.374,"text":"我們就清潔劑沒辦法了包委員 那個鳥也不能說有面板沒有面板它都會掉下去東西那個其實也都會掉到水庫所以其實我們那個水庫都會經過淨水場我們有那個量測都是核污安全標準而且水質非常好 可以放心再來 我們的泵水現在要設風場在那天"},{"start":999.202,"end":1023.147,"text":"市長 今天你有談到 市長你也有說這個地方要設風場 空間很大你今天要明確跟我說 你的態度是什麼因為他們要來抗爭 今天你們說了 他們特別要來不來所以我也在跟他們說 但是你今天跟他們說一下說這到底 如果沒有什麼條件 他想你要反對這也要做了啦"},{"start":1024.147,"end":1046.859,"text":"報告委員 我們環評委員是非常嚴格對這個非常敏感的所以請鄉親們放心不用大老遠擺到台北來抗議我們會嚴格幫大家把關外港的環境部那樣看 環境部外面那來撥可能不太好那來騙人也不太好不需要做勞使動眾的事情所以你的看法就是"},{"start":1051.165,"end":1054.047,"text":"發動反風車大聯盟已經成立 我也要支持但是台東管政府就明確說 不能做"},{"start":1077.419,"end":1095.428,"text":"這樣就比較安心了風車要低頻 噪音放下來不是辦法好 再來 我們農業科學園區裡面現在那三個製風池 現在已經要放光電了那機器頭都斷斷落下了 我跟你說你都沒在放頻 放火怎麼補 這樣不行啦"},{"start":1105.587,"end":1128.527,"text":"我們現在正在研究當中 到底多大的面積這個案子我會再去了解一下在這個敏感的地區 山坡地包括濕地等等它達到一定的面積的時候 一定的規模我認為還是要經過比較科學跟專業的依據我們才能夠說服地方這個政策的推動才會順暢"},{"start":1130.285,"end":1144.632,"text":"現在的規定就是包括特農的部分還有環境保護區還有重要濕地野生保護區跟國家公園這個本身就要做環評的"},{"start":1146.173,"end":1160.965,"text":"本來就現在的規定就是要河山場或是山坡地面積比較大河山場那裡500公頃那裡幾乎建國的時代就歸類了所以要一塊特區算什麼室內能蓋 蓋光電板現在蓋55公頃現在你那邊坡這裡 也是我們越來越多不斷我看我們還要再造一座因為你如果看到你那裡太空洞了"},{"start":1171.741,"end":1200.227,"text":"整個泥石流這樣流這個不是河山廠的出來口河山廠蓋的光電板是在廠區裡面絕對沒有蓋到廠外我拜託的時候 我有叫我的同事去檢查有三個原因 我說河山廠那個當然有一些開發有一些裸露的 但是它量沒有太大最主要是銀河灣"},{"start":1201.107,"end":1226.042,"text":"那裡有一個銀河灣 因為那是外來種第二個附近有一個水利的工程希望說能夠趕快完成可以把污水化的處理那目前的這個排水不是從這個河山廠造成的這個是我們目前初步的探查那陸國安委 一定有那陸國安委 國家的山府都過了死了了啦 所以這個是很可惜啦現在葉子也大家要挖 再來"},{"start":1229.494,"end":1254.155,"text":"我們的勞碧都停了 勞碧都停了例如說三寶你把他搬走了嘛 環境部是 是 我們退回了退回了喔 對 對 對這也還不完啦 這還要下去 因為他會結業而已啊現在你種平地茶 七百多公頃你現在要自己滷滷的 要再下去蓋光電 蓋五十億這樣還比較誇張的 一定我告訴你 來 下一張"},{"start":1258.772,"end":1282.462,"text":"這就是一天來播在平坑大旁邊在三明飛中央議員傳證說要在金門上面看太陽能板 光電板那是要做什麼 要把我們的祖先遮蔭那要遮蔭啊 要再遮蔭 怕死人沒辦法 金門你來看光電板"},{"start":1284.036,"end":1308.67,"text":"在那邊燒 要去燒壩 又走到旁邊走到這裡我沒有去如果有去 差不多就說我在亂的所以這個誇張 全台灣沒有公務會蓋光電盤不是 他不會放在那個木上面他是在走道的地方有啦 有有的要蓋 這些人祖先幾百年了都住在這裡這樣不行啦 不行啦 好不好"},{"start":1309.81,"end":1334.098,"text":"這種不宜的地方我們當初設想或開放的時候就應該把他這個不宜的地方要把它去除掉這樣才不會造成大家的不信任公務的旁邊做停車場我沒看過啦如果他只是一個建築物的上面或是一個另外空地那是可以考慮絕對不要在這個墓地上面來做任何的搭架公務旁的停車場"},{"start":1335.293,"end":1351.644,"text":"時間一萬 謝謝我們現在來講醫療任性請新出爐的部長石部長很認真我們財政部長來財政部 麻煩請財政部備詢財政部 財政部麻煩請財政部備詢"},{"start":1362.898,"end":1385.194,"text":"院長 這是88這個莫拉克風災的時候那個時候這個是我本人那個時候是用平行車在載反駕再來下一張這是用貨櫃車因為以前都遭毀遭毀車都停在二高的"},{"start":1388.072,"end":1402.364,"text":"路肩 然後我們用貨櫃車去把醫生拉回來都喝水喔 可能貨櫃車我就曬這醫生這樣一條一條跳下來 我一條一條跟他照那個時辰 水久 醫生這樣 熱忱就拚了很感動耶 那個廢棍車上面還有鑽耶鑽也怕喝水耶 麻痺的穿過可能腳也會軟掉喔來 下一張 但是現在嚴重耶"},{"start":1418.2,"end":1431.944,"text":"現在我們的重症醫師都走了大家都知道要開業 大家都知道要遵守因為這個事情 你聽我告訴你你也要做筆記 那個越來越嚴重不然 事務長要做什麼"},{"start":1436.73,"end":1463.411,"text":"跟委員報告這個急重症部分當然我們一方面這個今年的健保的挹注也比較比往年多很多啦所以各醫院的點子都上來了甚至在南部啊高屏區都達到點子一塊錢那另一方面我們就調整這個支付標準把急重症的這個跟人力有關係的支付標準也都是優先調升所以今年急重症就調了四十幾億"},{"start":1464.552,"end":1475.418,"text":"那另外護理的部分我們也在調護理費我們也投入了25億這幾年真的時事部長很認真 邱部長也很認真你也很認真 很多藝術 很多費用過來撿補這是事實 但是這幾年要補補這錢都是家裡的家裡護理師 家裡醫師 放射前驗者 都一直提供但是醫生的薪資 十五年沒調整"},{"start":1494.515,"end":1519.693,"text":"我也要替醫生講談保安會醫生為什麼大家要再走他沒有說到重點重點是在哪裡 市部長當然有一部分是因為在診所開業跟在醫院的醫師他的稅負也有落差因為在醫院裡面是屬於受僱那麼在診所裡面是執行業務所的"},{"start":1520.687,"end":1544.287,"text":"兩者的說服之間也出現有一些不相稱的地方所以這個也跟委員報告我們也在研究那麼在醫院裡面的所有的這個工作人員除了這個主治醫師外他都是適用勞基法那麼只有主治醫師那麼因為業務的關係病人的生命"},{"start":1546.541,"end":1568.394,"text":"臨時性 緊急性 持續性不同所以沒有納入勞基法美國總統川普說加班費 值班費 免稅像這個福福叫小費 也免稅現在醫生 重症的醫生在病院一班一班要死 你還要卡稅"},{"start":1569.751,"end":1592.785,"text":"再加上現在的醫生的稅差不多要2個位置2個包圍的全薪去納稅他一般在那裡在那裡再加稅大家也照啊 去申訴稅務可不可以淡嗎你們之前說兩個部隊要研究研究研究研究到現在到底是什麼我們的重症醫療的方法院長 總院長你現在是理想到嗎"},{"start":1598.82,"end":1609.059,"text":"你是Powerful,你一定會做到一定的事,如果沒有照料,我們在座的各位,包括你,包括我,包括我們的家人,他們要怎麼幫忙,沒有人依靠他們,"},{"start":1612.068,"end":1629.453,"text":"那個也說不會喔所以醫生你一個月而已如果不這樣繼續在流失越來越嚴重我們還是要尊敬跟感謝每個醫師當他投入這個行業的時候他對自己的工作的使命都是非常崇高的但不能因為這樣變成一個不被尊重"},{"start":1629.943,"end":1647.339,"text":"那我也承認過去一段時間我們對護理人員跟相關人員的這個需求的提高做的比較多那實際上這兩天我也跟部長提到未來我們怎麼對醫師來做更多的一些在權益上面的維護那您說到了這個加班不記錄"},{"start":1648.834,"end":1677.947,"text":"免稅的這個部分財政部應該有一個想法我們來聽財政部的說法跟委員報告目前的稅法規定如果是為了僱主的目的如果他要執行業務那麼支領的這個加班費目前如果說這個加班費沒有超過規定的標準的話他是不計入他的薪資收入來課稅的那現在問題就是組織醫師這一部分他不適用導機法那他也沒有具有公務員的身份"},{"start":1678.807,"end":1694.623,"text":"這一部分因為他的加班的時數跟他加班的這個資期的標準他目前都還沒訂出來所以這一部分可能要麻煩請這個衛福部這邊先訂出來以後我們就會根據稅法的規定那麼提供一個非常公平合理的一個"},{"start":1695.225,"end":1701.39,"text":"加班免稅的一個規定跟財政部開過三次會議也有在這個賴會員委員也主持了兩次的協商當然剛剛陳儒財政部規範裡面提到的要有一個加班的"},{"start":1722.827,"end":1742.243,"text":"這個規定 那個包含這個上限標準那這個我們大概也有一些共識那麼以這個80到100個小時也不能夠太高 過勞也不好但是以80到100小時間的這個加班時數來做一個上限"},{"start":1742.963,"end":1749.027,"text":"再來就是這個加班費如何採任的問題還在跟財政部這邊"},{"start":1773.583,"end":1783.846,"text":"過勞 所以一定要在合理的範圍當中那這個部分財政部應該會來支持這樣講來來來 陳國標這樣講 國務局也好 跟我講一下不好 尿尿看喔 不是辦法啦這真的在那裡 每個月都在跑往紅醫師 那個陳醫師 每天早上在那裡唱歌而已說他要跑 他說廢物太重 他沒辦法啊所以去診所 比較輕啊"},{"start":1798.621,"end":1823.618,"text":"所以這要怎麼讓他們做下去公家便宜 你們看公家便宜 大家蠢蠢利動那一家伴侶幾百塊啊 你是要叫我們怎麼做下去啦你有 當時全十八個月 今年你給我回答一各位 兩各位給我今年來研究好不好我們今年來研究這個方案出來 今年明年就適用了明年我們研究出來以後會有個時程再跟委員報告 謝謝"},{"start":1824.875,"end":1831.124,"text":"好感謝好謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員質詢謝謝主委員長各相關部會所長備詢謝謝報告委員會在議場二樓旁聽的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":594,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時3分）謝謝主席。請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長辛苦了。第一個問題，因為時間有限，藝人、表演者閃兵頻傳，今天又有多名藝人被逮捕、約談，甚至上手銬。我比較訝異的是，這些人有的有服過替代役，不是沒當兵，是替代役，卻也被認為閃兵。不是跳傘的傘兵，是「閃」的閃兵。因此，是不是我們在替代役的資格審查上有漏洞？院長也不知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天這個案子我不曉得，但無論是一般的服役或替代役，都是國民應盡的義務。我認為站在國民的立場跟國家立場上，國民盡義務的時候應該要勇敢承擔，至於執行過程當中，我認為警察機關自有它的衡量。"],["蘇委員清泉：這實在是，我是海軍陸戰隊退伍的，但我以前就傻傻的當兵、傻傻的操練，現在有替代役、什麼役的一大堆，這是認定上有什麼弊端嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這是妨害兵役案件，今天是拘提，不是逮捕，這部分已經進行了好幾波妨害兵役案件的偵辦，像王姓藝人已經都被起訴了，我想此風不可長，服兵役是國民應盡的義務，而且憲法也有規定。這個是屬於妨害兵役的一個執行方式。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，如果是逃避兵役，那是嚴重啦，如果……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是妨害兵役。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果是一般要當兵的體位有點問題，降下來變成替代役體位……"],["卓院長榮泰：國民的義務是一樣的。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個都是服兵役嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，服的類種不一樣，但是站在憲法上，國民應盡義務的憲法精神規範是一樣的。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個搞清楚之後，請部長到我們辦公室來討論一下，好不好？部長，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這是一個個案，我們尊重……"],["蘇委員清泉：這是個案？現在已經有七、八個了耶！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是妨害兵役制度的案件，並不是屬於我們法務部主管的法規，我們是以違反妨害兵役跟偽造文書的部分來做偵辦，我想這是一個個案，我們也尊重檢察官的偵辦職權。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。","再來就是有關運動部的問題，運動部才成立不久，不忍苛責啦！部長不用上台來了，剛才洪孟楷委員已經問很多了，你們足協的弊端一大堆，對此，就請運動部的人到本席辦公室來跟我研究研究，討論一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員多多支持，這個事件剛好給運動部成立之後，以一個全新的運動部去面對一個老問題看看要如何來解決，我想全社會、全國都在看，未來運動部要大力的整頓各單項協會，這是一個很好的起點，雖然案件對我們來講滿痛心的，但是利用這個案件能夠大力的整頓，從此開始，行政院全力支持運動部做這樣的改革。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，新的部會。","再來我要談天災的部分，我們請農業部跟經濟部。"],["主席：麻煩請農業部長及經濟部長備詢。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，我上次就跟你請教過，我們上次農損是用農業成本的20%來補助，就是以這個來當作是農民的農損金額，上次你就有說過了，陳部長也有說過這個要研究、調整。我一直想不通，用農業成本的20%當作農損金額，所以計算來的data都很低，農業損失光是成本就要5倍了啊，比如屏東，你跟我說這次1億、2億啊，但實際上的損失光是成本就10億啊，如果照之前委員所說的，他們的收益以一分地來說，一分地的玉荷包你只補助6,000塊、8,000塊，實際上如果他若能好好收成可以收20萬至30萬，所以差太多了啦！我一直想不通，你把農損算的這麼低是要表示什麼？表示我們的損失很輕微，這個不對啦！你上次說要調整，院長，有調整嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，現在的天然災害救助辦法會在年底……因為我們每半年就會檢討一次，年底的時候我們會檢討、會重新修正。但是我要跟委員報告一個精神，天然災害救助精神的本身是希望能儘快復耕，而且天然災害發生了以後，當然有少部分比較嚴重的會全園損毀，大部分的話，像果樹的部分，可能第一次的花被打掉，第二次還會再開花，所以它有不同的樣態，我們會根據不同的樣態去設計。","第二個部分要跟委員報告，以這次從丹娜絲颱風到楊柳颱風，樺加沙颱風還不談喔，我們的現金救助費發放了大概65.5億，然後實際的損失大概是4倍啦，實際的、整個的農業損失大概是250億到300億之間。"],["蘇委員清泉：這是他說的，是用成本去計算喔，以成本的20%去做補助，院長，實際上他們的損失是5倍嘛，如果以市面上的收益來說，那無法去算了，也沒辦法吵出個結論啦！但如果一直估算的這麼低，這也不是正常的作法啦，會讓人家覺得好像沒什麼損失，但實際上災損是非常嚴重的，農民都在吃土了！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，面對極端氣候，政府當然是想大力的來協助農民，但是我們考慮到國家的財政結構跟能力，我們是採取這樣的方式，但是未來他在復耕的過程當中，我們還有很多的獎勵措施，還可以再協助他儘快的恢復正常。"],["蘇委員清泉：最重要的就是要趕快讓他復耕、讓他復原嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：讓他趕快再去種嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：一塊地一年只能補助一次而已耶，只有一次，沒有第二次喔，所以那個是杯水車薪，這300萬從事農漁牧的農民要給予照顧啦！"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，有關於連續受損的部分，我們也會納入今年年底的修正裡面一併去調整。"],["蘇委員清泉：國土韌性、什麼韌性都一樣嘛，我們一天到晚在說韌性、韌性，所以我是非常的期待。院長，我記得我上次說的時候你還作筆記，這樣很不錯啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：農業部年底會做合理的檢討跟修正。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們現在說一個最實際的，香蕉柱，這個叫做香蕉柱，院長可能不知道，你家沒有種香蕉，我小時候都是在幫忙種香蕉的。關於這個香蕉柱，以前因為怕颱風來所以會用竹子綁起來，那些竹子都是從竹山來，現在都是用錏管或鋁製的，錏管有分厚的跟薄的，薄的一根240元、厚的一根325元，但厚的一根可以用十多年。部長啊，你們現在的補助條件是什麼，你知道嗎？必須是有機的、有履歷的才要補助！我跟你說，大多數的農民都種差不多兩分地、三分地，沒有履歷，也不是有機的，他們收一收就交給「販仔」以內銷為主，這些人你不給補助；你們補助的都是那些大農戶，那些租台糖土地20公頃、30公頃的，對那些人你們補助那麼多錢，他們本來就比較有錢了，你還補助讓他們更有錢，而那些吃土的就一直吃土，這樣不行啦！部長！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員講，你講的邏輯有一點不正確，我要跟委員報告，我們在補助的過程中也希望調整農民能朝向更進步的耕作方式，所以我們是針對產銷履歷，產銷履歷我們會專案輔導，產銷履歷是讓整個產品可以追溯、讓它的品質更好的方式，不然我們補助下去，過往曾經補助過一次，結果第二年這些錏管都被拿去賣了，這個是很實際的問題，所以我們希望用產銷履歷去做……"],["蘇委員清泉：現在農民的香蕉苗都是來自專門育苗的地方，一株售價25元、30元，雖然你很內行，但我的研究也很深入啊，我不是沒在跑，所以我要跟你說的是，這些農民大多數需要你們的補助，你要給他們補助啦，不是說……"],["陳部長駿季：蕉苗我們有補助啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啊！你有這麼多的限制，造成農民都反彈啊，高樹及其他地方的農民都罵得要死，請再查一下，好不好？部長，這些小農才是需要我們去照顧的，至於那些大農戶不太需要照顧啦，他們活得很好啦！","再來，這次楊柳颱風造成農田損失，相關農業設施，如網子等等都漸漸在復原了嘛，對不對？部長，有在復原嗎？那些網室什麼的。"],["陳部長駿季：有關網室的部分，我們現在特別針對還找不到工的這些網室有另外提供獎勵金，讓他先把網子透過回收場回收，這個部分我們已經積極在做，而且是提供8成的補助。"],["蘇委員清泉：8成的補助？"],["陳部長駿季：對，8成的補助。"],["蘇委員清泉：但那些農水路都毀壞了……"],["陳部長駿季：針對農水路的部分，農田水利署在這次丹娜絲颱風整個提供了76.82億，這76.82億是由地方政府提報上來的，這個部分地方政府已經提報計畫了，我們會在最短時間內核定以後就可以開始施工。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，陳部長是很認真啦，真的很認真……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，真的，對於各種補助的反應措施及變化的彈性相當大，而且又快速。"],["蘇委員清泉：災難一直來，這種災難是一直來的，不論誰執政都一樣啦，全球氣候變遷，所以我們現在一天到晚在說國土韌性、韌性、韌性，這真的要下重本啦，不是隨便說說就好了。","我今天要談的題目很多，再來要談防災韌性，對於這次小琉球自來水的配水池，我很感謝院長及經濟部，小琉球現在一年的遊客超過200萬人，在地常住人口差不多1萬人，設籍人口一萬多，原來的自來水儲水池是5,000噸的，現在要再設立一個五千多噸的，剛好一萬多噸，這樣才是真正的韌性啦！大家也安心，不然以前缺電又缺水，所以，很感謝卓院長，那天你沒有去。","我要再說的就是，牡丹水庫的水經過車城，經過枋山、枋寮一直引到林邊再分過去小琉球，然後又往北朝東港、林園那邊一直過去，長達100公里。以前水管都掛在橋的旁邊，橋斷了引水管也跟著斷，現在自來水公司自己用水管橋，做得不錯，也看到有在保養。因為長達100公里，所以我們小琉球有儲水設施。","我要建議、請求我們的院長你答應我一下，屏南這邊上次八八風災停電停水，停電停4天、停水停8天，那已經達到忍受的最高極限了。我跟院長報告，那個時候我們醫院都開放讓外面的人來洗澡，我們那邊有地下水，還有我們八軍團的來，四處再去高樹那邊買水，我光是買水就買了一百多萬，還從山上載水下來等等。這些都過去了，但是我是建議在大鵬灣那邊找地，我們來蓋一個儲水槽。","部長，經濟部出一點力，10萬噸、10萬噸有辦法嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們來評估看看，如果有適合的地方，我們來評估。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個有需要啦！不然鋪了那麼長的水管來到那邊，萬一水管斷掉水就又沒了，連水也沒得喝，所以這很重要。院長，沒問題吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：我請部長來評估，因應當地的需要看這邊要克服一些其他的困難……"],["蘇委員清泉：如果儲水量更多還更好。","再來，我們這陣子大家都在吵光電板吵得「霧煞煞」，昨天我們的環境部長也跟我說，他跟我說水庫、滯洪池，水池、水庫裡面有在做環評的，世界上沒有人做；結果不是，我們昨天查了，新加坡有在做、韓國有在做、印尼也有在做。印尼喔，所以要環評啦！你都沒有環評、陸上的也沒環評、核三廠裡面的也沒有環評，全都沒有環評，這樣「霧煞煞」的，這樣好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我解釋一下。你說新加坡、印尼跟韓國有環評，他是提案者自己做，但是政府並沒有一個規範是多少。就像你讀書，但是我們政府要規定幾分及格，但他們政府並沒有規定幾分及格。我們早就有關注到這件事情了，所以目前全世界的標準是還沒有，但是他是自己做。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在我們的光電板放在滯洪池上面或是放在哪裡會不會污染的問題，剛才農業部長一直說沒有污染，明明就是陸上的光電板因為有鳥屎或有什麼的，所以業者用清潔劑去沖洗，這也是事實；你說在水庫、在滯洪池上面的你都用清水在沖洗，滯洪池上面就沒有鳥去「放屎」嗎？胡說八道嘛。"],["龔部長明鑫：他有用高壓水或低壓水來沖洗，這是允許的。"],["蘇委員清泉：鳥兒飛到滯洪池會有交通管制，叫牠不可以飛下去這樣嗎？沒有嘛！所以你如果要比較嚴格的話，就要規定這些清潔劑是要用分解、有機的等等，環境部你要下去好好地研究，不要一味地說都沒有、都沒有……"],["龔部長明鑫：不行，不能用，我們現在是用清水……"],["卓院長榮泰：都不能用啦。"],["彭部長啓明：水源區都不行啦！都不行，清潔劑都不行，清水而已……"],["龔部長明鑫：對！任何清潔劑都不行。"],["蘇委員清泉：全部都用清水沖而已？"],["龔部長明鑫：對、對、對。"],["蘇委員清泉：吸湖裡面的水去沖洗？"],["龔部長明鑫：要用高壓的高壓水去噴啦。"],["蘇委員清泉：這樣陸上的為何？啊，陸上沒有水，所以陸上的要用清潔劑。院長，是不是這樣說？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是這個邏輯啦，要用高壓水沖下去，就像這次花蓮在清理時用高壓水槍一樣，就能夠清得出去。"],["龔部長明鑫：事實上用清潔劑也不是很好，如果不好的清潔劑還會傷害你的面板。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有那種清潔劑是沒有毒的啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個鳥也不能說……有面板、沒有面板牠都會有排泄物啦，其實也都會掉到水庫啦！所以其實我們水庫的水都會經過淨水場，我們的量測都是合乎安全標準，而且水質非常好，可以放心啦。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，我們枋山那邊現在要設風場，院長，上次你有點頭，部長你也有說，這個地方要設風場，抗爭很大。你今天要明確跟我說你的態度是怎麼樣，因為他們要來抗爭，今天你們說完，他們就會決定要來、不來，所以我也在擋他們，但是你今天要跟他們說一下，說這個如果沒有符合什麼條件以上，你就會反對，這個不要再做了啦！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們環評委員是非常嚴格的針對非常敏感的部分，所以請鄉親們放心，不用大老遠跑到臺北來抗議，我們會嚴格幫大家把關。"],["蘇委員清泉：那天我去環境部那邊看一看，在環境部外面打架、可能不錯、丟雞蛋也不錯，不需要做勞師動眾的事情。所以院長，你的看法就是不合格絕對不讓它設置？"],["卓院長榮泰：那當然，但是我們相信專業的數據，科學的數據我們都相信，也請委員能夠用專業來評鑑這個問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：花東反風車大聯盟已經成立，我也在支持他們，但是臺東縣政府明確說不能做，這樣就比較安心了，風車低頻噪音實在不是辦法。","再來，我們農業科學園區裡面那3個滯洪池現在已經要放光電，那些工具、材料都準備好了。部長，你都沒有在做環評，放任這樣搞下去，這樣不行啦！注意一下好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在正在研究到底多大的面積，這個案子我會再去了解一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在敏感的地區，包括山坡地、包括濕地等等，若它達到一定的面積、一定的規模，我認為還是要經過比較科學跟專業的依據後，我們才能夠說服地方，這個政策的推動才會順暢。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，你這樣說我很安慰，因為核三廠的光電……"],["龔部長明鑫：現在的規定，包括特農的部分，還有環境保護區，還有重要濕地、野生保護區跟國家公園，這個本身就是要做環評的，現在的規定就是要做，或是山坡地面積比較大，那也是要做。"],["蘇委員清泉：核三廠那個部分有500公頃，那是蔣經國時代就已經劃下去了，所以那裡是一個特區，隨便他們要做什麼，現在蓋光電板，面積有55公頃，而且現在在邊坡的部分，也是把地弄得歪七扭八。部長，我看我們還要再跑一趟，如果你到現場看，可能你會看得頭暈暈的，整個泥石流到處流！","（播放影片）"],["龔部長明鑫：這個不是核三廠的出海口。"],["蘇委員清泉：山坡地都推平來蓋光電板……"],["龔部長明鑫：核三廠蓋的光電板是在廠區裡面，絕對沒有蓋到廠外。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，禮拜五的時候我有叫我的同事去檢查，這有三個原因，我說核三廠那個部分當然有一些開發、有一些裸露的，但是它的量沒有太大，最主要是因為那裡有銀合歡，那個是外來種；第二個，附近有一個水利工程，希望能夠趕快完成，可以做污水處理，目前的排水不是核三廠造成的，這是我們目前初步的勘查結果。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，那些爛泥都覆蓋到珊瑚上，都快死光光了，所以這真的很可惜，當地業者大家也都哀哀叫。","再來就是老埤農場的部分，你有說把三寶擋下來了？環境部。"],["彭部長啓明：是，我們退回了。"],["蘇委員清泉：退回了？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["蘇委員清泉：不要再這樣搞了，如果再下去，因為它比較低，現在種平地茶有七百多公頃，你現在把它推平要來蓋光電，有需要這樣嗎？","還有更誇張的，院長，我跟你說，這張照片就是那天內埔屏科大旁邊開的說明會，當中有議員、也有村長參加，他們說要在公墓上面蓋太陽能光電板，這是要做什麼？要幫我們的祖先遮蔭？就已經夠陰了，還要遮蔭？嚇死人！那是公墓欸！在公墓蓋光電板，在那裡大家差點打起來，也要翻桌了！還好我沒去，如果我去了，又要說是我在慫恿的，所以這個真的誇張，全臺灣沒有在公墓蓋光電板的。"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，它不會放在墓上面，它是在走道的地方。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有啦！圍一圍就要蓋了，這些人的祖先幾百年來都住在這裡，這樣不行啦！不可以啦！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：關於這種不宜的地方，我們在當初設想或開放的時候就應該要把不宜的地方去除掉，這樣才不會造成大家的不信任。"],["蘇委員清泉：公墓的旁邊做停車場我曾經看過，但如果要在公墓上蓋光電板，實在是有夠扯。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果它只是在一個建築物上面，或是在另外的空地，那是可以考慮，但絕對不要在墓地上面做任何搭架。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，公墓旁的停車場啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：時間有限，謝謝。","來，我們現在來說醫療韌性。請我們新出爐的石部長，很認真！還有財政部長。"],["主席：麻煩請財政部備詢。內政部還是財政部？"],["蘇委員清泉：財政部。"],["主席：麻煩請財政部備詢。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，這是莫拉克風災的時候，這個是我本人，那個時候是用軍車載患者；再來這是用貨櫃車，醫生都被召回，他們的車都停在二高的路肩，然後我們用貨櫃車去把醫生拉回來，因為都淹水了，只有貨櫃車可以開，醫生們就這樣一個一個跳下來，然後這樣一個一個的接他們，那個時候我們一叫醫生，醫生充滿熱忱馬上就趕到，很感動！那個貨櫃車上面還有蛇，蛇也怕淹水啊！就躲在車上，泡水久了可能腳也會軟掉！","但是現在嚴重了，現在我們的重症醫師都跑光光，大家都跑去開業、大家都跑去診所，這個事情上次我跟你說了之後，你也有做筆記，結果越來越嚴重！石部長，這是怎麼樣？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，關於急重症部分，當然我們一方面今年的健保挹注也比往年多很多，所以各醫院的點值都上來了，甚至在南部、高屏區都達到點值1塊錢；另一方面我們就調整支付標準，把急重症跟人力有關係的支付標準都優先調升，所以今年急重症就調了四十幾億；另外護理的部分呢，我們也在調，護理費我們也投入了25億。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，我跟你報告，這幾年石部長真的很認真、邱部長也很認真、你也很認真，挹注了很多費用到健保，這是事實！但是這幾年的狀況我要向你報告，這些錢都加在哪裡呢？都加在護理師、加在醫事、放射、檢驗這些，這些都在提高，但是醫生的薪資15年沒調整了，我也要替醫生說一點話。醫生為什麼都要跑掉？你沒說到重點啊，重點是在哪裡？石部長。"],["石部長崇良：當然有一部分是因為在診所開業跟在醫院的醫師的稅負也有落差，因為在醫院裡面是屬於受僱，在診所裡面則是執行業務所得，所以兩者的稅負之間也出現一些不相稱的地方。所以也跟委員報告，我們也在研究，在醫院裡面的所有工作人員除了主治醫師外都是適用勞基法，只有主治醫師因為業務的關係，病人的生命、臨時性、緊急性、持續性不同，所以沒有納入勞基法。"],["蘇委員清泉：美國總統川普說加班費、值班費免稅，甚至服務業的小費也免稅，現在重症醫生在醫院值班值到要死，你還向他課稅，現在醫生差不多要用兩個月至兩個半月的全薪去繳稅，他值班都值到「虛累累」了，你還課稅，大家當然要跑啊！去診所的稅負才不會那麼重嘛！上次兩個部長說要研究、研究、研究，研究到現在到底是怎麼樣？我們的重症醫療會不會崩盤？卓院長，你現在是最重要的，你是powerful，你的決定就會定生死。不然走光了以後，我們在座的各位，包括你、包括我、包括我們的家人，以後如果重症去醫院會沒人醫治而死翹翹，不要說不會喔！所以院長，你一句話而已，不然還在繼續流失而且越來越嚴重。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是要尊敬跟感謝每個醫師，當投入這個行業的時候，他對自己的工作使命都是非常崇高的，但不能因為這樣變成不受尊重，那我也承認過去一段時間，我們對護理人員跟相關人員的需求提高做得比較多。這兩天我也跟部長提到，未來怎麼對醫師做更多在權益上面的維護，您說到了加班免稅的部分，財政部應該有一個想法，我們來聽財政部的說法。"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，目前的稅法規定，如果是為了雇主的目的執行業務，支領的加班費沒有超過規定標準的話，是不計入他的薪資收入來課稅的。現在問題就是主治醫師這一部分，他不適用勞基法，也不具公務員的身分，因為他的加班時數跟加班的支給標準目前都還沒訂出來，所以可能要麻煩衛福部這邊先訂出來以後，我們就會根據稅法的規定，提供一個非常公平合理的加班免稅規定。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你們財政部跟衛福部有在研究？"],["阮次長清華：我們會……"],["蘇委員清泉：什麼時候會有結果？你已經說好幾個月了，石部長。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們也跟財政部開過3次會議，賴惠員委員也主持了兩次協商，當然誠如剛剛財政部規範裡面提到的，要有一個加班的規定，包含上限標準，這個部分我們大概也有一些共識，以80到100個小時，也不能夠太高，過勞也不好，但是以80到100個小時間的加班時數為上限。再來就是加班費如何採認的問題，還在跟財政部磋商……"],["蘇委員清泉：這都是技術性的問題啦！院長就只有你一句話，要或不要這樣而已，我跟你說……"],["卓院長榮泰：原則、方向就是如此。"],["蘇委員清泉：醫生沒加薪水！你讓他減一些稅負才留得住！這真的是現在全國的醫生，尤其是醫院的醫生，包括公家醫院，大家都在看，今天這個直播絕對有很多人在看。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，大方向是如此，剛剛部長說的一句很重要，我們也不希望醫師有太多的業務造成自己的過勞，所以一定要在合理的範圍當中，這個部分財政部應該會來支持。"],["蘇委員清泉：來、來、來，剩幾秒鐘而已……"],["阮次長清華：我們會……"],["蘇委員清泉：多久會好？跟我說一下，不然「貓貓看」也不是辦法啦！真的是每個月都在走人！網紅醫師陳醫師昨天才嗆聲而已，說他要走，稅負太重沒辦法了，他去診所比較輕。所以這些要怎麼讓他們做得下去，公家醫院大家也是蠢蠢欲動，加班費幾百塊，你要叫他們怎麼做得下去啦！院長，什麼時候？剩18秒，你快回答我，看1月或2個月……"],["卓院長榮泰：今年來研究好不好？"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們今年來研究這個方案出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：今年？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：明年就適用了？"],["卓院長榮泰：研究出來以後會有個時程，再跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員質詢，謝謝卓院長及各相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，在議場2樓旁聽的是來自新竹的中華神龍汽車協會，我們掌聲歡迎。","接下來是上午最後一位質詢委員張宏陸委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id"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弊案掛鉤在一起就形成了一個混淆所以想要請教一下院長關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情到底合不合法"},{"start":88.265,"end":99.322,"text":"剛剛王委員他提到的就是我們管理辦法裡面的第5條他寫的是於蓄水範圍內下列行為者其行為人"},{"start":100.123,"end":128.908,"text":"因向其管理機關構申請的許可所以他引用的那這個是的確是三年違憲但是呢這個重要的就是說這是這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的如果你本身就是管理機關的話你是可以透過招標自行設置是不受這一條限制的所以基本上來講烏山陀水庫因為管理機關是農業部所以農業部基本上這個是農業部招標的所以是沒有法律上是沒有問題的"},{"start":129.768,"end":145.597,"text":"理解 以上說明一下那彭部長也要補充嗎對 包委喔 因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民他們也很在意水質有沒有問題事實上我們從這個光電板的上游還有下游 甚至到進水場我們都做了非常嚴密的這個"},{"start":146.537,"end":172.045,"text":"水質的檢驗沒有任何受到光碟板的影響同時裡面的PFAS就是含氟的有機化合物PFAS目前來看的話遠低於歐盟任意的標準所以烏山口水庫的水質是相當好的所以在法令上是合法那水質的話也是必須做的事情也都是透明可查透明可查 沒有任何安全的疑慮稍微說明一下比如說烏山口水庫來講的話"},{"start":174.326,"end":194.143,"text":"裝設光電板的部分只有他湖面的1%多一點而已而且就如果是以民生用電它是微幅主要它是灌溉用的而且我們的取水口離這個光電板非常非常距離非常非常遠而且每天都會做水質的檢測到我們進水場裡面去所以是"},{"start":195.104,"end":212.813,"text":"絕對沒有問題我想其實水面上設置光電板全世界都在做甚至中國也做得很大很多我想只要我們依法行政然後在安全環境都沒有任何的疑慮我想對我們再生能源的發展這是一個很重要的步驟"},{"start":213.553,"end":230.761,"text":"好 謝謝我是可以跟委員稍微補充一下就是烏山水庫的部分水質的檢測特別是外線所擔心的這些陰離子的活性介面劑它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍它也遠低於實用的水"},{"start":231.821,"end":246.768,"text":"那現在有一個問題就是因為外界一直在質疑就是刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的所以最近針對烏山稠水土水源所引用的這些農產品那個價格開始在崩盤特別是菱角"},{"start":247.888,"end":266.381,"text":"所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告就是說其實烏山頭水庫的水質是絕對是符合我們的標準的而且是灌溉用水民生用水都是標準的那也希望外界不要刻意的造成一些恐慌造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤"},{"start":267.318,"end":289.871,"text":"我希望我們的每個部會都能夠加強訊息的一個澄清因為這個對我們的整個社會韌性的發展是非常重要好 謝謝各位部長的說明那我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用不過我要先跟院長說就是這一次花蓮的災情其實中央部會有非常多的長官"},{"start":290.772,"end":308.506,"text":"進駐到第一線來去支援協助大家都很辛苦那其中的這個馬太安顏色湖其實我們在地的族人他們一直有一個訴求就是希望中繼安置那其實這個中繼安置呢在國際間其實都已經有了可是呢這是莫拉克"},{"start":309.146,"end":334.702,"text":"災後重建的一個遺憾因為是直接做永久屋的安置那為什麼要做中繼安置其實很簡單重建家園可能三個月可能半年可能一年但是我們希望在這一段時間我們不是被安置到移清或者是去租屋或者是去旅社我們希望的是依照原住民的一個集體性跟社會韌性我們能夠在一起"},{"start":335.722,"end":360.516,"text":"做討論為我們後來的重建家園所以我認為這個部分現在我們內政部也都有聽到 園民會也都聽到如果能夠把這個中繼安置做好我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的一個掌聲那另外呢在這個利烏溪燕子口造成的這個煙色虎我也要謝謝一下因為劉思芳部長跟我們的曾志勇主委有站上來其實"},{"start":362.657,"end":369.964,"text":"我們在做安置的當下族人跟我們陳情反應說他們需要衛浴設備當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長四個小時內我們協調國防部"},{"start":377.751,"end":403.814,"text":"沐浴車就來了那個得到族人很大的掌聲覺得有政府有安心會做事那我也借這個機會但是後面有一個問題就是關於這個封閉的問題因為這個燕子口煙色湖他的量體大概是馬太安溪煙色湖的0.2%而且他是距離很近所以要做處理很快"},{"start":403.814,"end":424.767,"text":"很方便可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉這個引起很大的討論甚至是影響到我們的向山致敬政策或者是我們的高山產業發展那為什麼我會把這個做引子我其實是要提到我們人本來就是靠山吃山靠海吃海原住民也是一樣"},{"start":425.887,"end":443.036,"text":"那我先請院長了解我們這幾年我們的獎勵照領提高了年限縮短了這個我很高興後來我們繼續進法補償金也要跟著獎勵照領提高而提高謝謝行政院也做到了"},{"start":443.496,"end":472.77,"text":"我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款讓我們有融資那這個也快成功了但是速度有點慢那我要講的是說包括自然碳會納入方法學這些我們都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用我今天要談的是坡地的農業因為請院長猜一猜有看到這個水果原民會主委可能也可以幫忙猜那個是水蜜桃"},{"start":474.171,"end":487.996,"text":"這個院長或主委這個知不知道這個一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺農民如果沒有什麼寒害蟲害淨賺多少一年一公頃謝謝委員水蜜桃大概是370萬一年一公頃確實我的數據是350謝謝那這個愛文芒果一公頃"},{"start":498.973,"end":524.33,"text":"艾文應該是150萬左右一公頃所以院長您聽到了齁我其實問很多我們的族人啊淨髮補償一公頃六萬塊獎勵趙琳現在一公頃十萬然後我問他們說你要趙琳還是淨髮很多人跟我講說特別是農民啊有那個我要種芒果比較好我說為什麼因為他一年可以淨賺120到150"},{"start":526.491,"end":553.167,"text":"也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入那我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用但是我們看一下這個圓餅圖在原住民族地區我們的零農用地就佔了94%甚至是我們的這些零地幾乎私有的原保地是47%全數都拿去做進發補償"},{"start":554.981,"end":564.899,"text":"為什麼因為限制很多那我們很感謝農業部我們的林保署他有一個政策叫做零下經濟"},{"start":566.869,"end":587.011,"text":"但是我們現在就想問了因為進法補償的要看竹木林的覆蓋七成所以我們想要問這個30%能不能夠開放耕作那剛才我有講了因為我們會受制於這個森林法那現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟"},{"start":588.092,"end":614.046,"text":"但是我們希望項目更多元一點那我們看一下林下經濟的作物現在開放有九種全部都是台灣原生種可是跟院長報告我們很多林下都長咖啡我們很多的愛玉樓是跟著樹在攀升我們很多的樹林底下那個山蘇都到處長但是他會遇到一個狀況就是禁法補償"},{"start":615.767,"end":633.882,"text":"會因為他不是零下經濟允許的作物就會把他扣除掉就不能領淨法補償這個帶來很多的一個困擾土地的多元利用因為他會碰到所謂的水保法裡面的超限利用就會造成他的淨法補償被取消"},{"start":635.043,"end":650.382,"text":"我們現在看水保法第26條其實他也沒有禁止他有但書有例外規定他說但不包括依其他法得為農漁募資懇職經營或使用特別是"},{"start":651.242,"end":674.772,"text":"國土計劃法上注之後未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把這個坡地的農業會列入到農山的部分所以呢我們也有一個所謂的原住民族土地使用管制規則他最新公告預告的這個草案就有提到有關傳統耕作灌輸涉及水保山坡保育利用條例可以透過鄉村"},{"start":676.032,"end":690.96,"text":"跟地區整體規劃舊部落的實際需要另訂土地使用管制規則這個就是一線生機啊所以我在這個地方要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長有沒有辦法來修一下這個水土保持法的施行細則"},{"start":692.759,"end":711.606,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實這個議題在上次南投的一個天然災害的時候越南就有指示針對那時候是針對公有林的部分我們希望說公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助後來我們就從事實際的研議林地我先講第一個就是"},{"start":712.586,"end":736.458,"text":"原住民保留地的建法補償的這些林業用地不是說都不要去動它以林業的角度來講不能說都不動它反而是不好的所以要適當的做經營的利用所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的然後現在第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積我們現在在公有地的話只要你保留30%的林地就可以了"},{"start":737.158,"end":761.952,"text":"第三個比較重要的就是您剛才講的像咖啡有一些過去我們的零下經濟的品項都是一個品項 一個品項開放現在我們是用原則性的你只要用一些有機的方法不要影響生態就可以了我後面會講到原民會主委你聽到了部長的態度就是政府的態度就是院長的態度好 那我就繼續說原民會要不要主動來修淨防護牆會 我們現在也在"},{"start":764.753,"end":782.005,"text":"在想要怎麼主動來修正我們也會跟農業部這裡一起來研商非常感謝我其實我前面談到的都是法令限制我們的現況我要講因為切後變遷的關係然後我們必須要有一些耐旱的作物"},{"start":782.825,"end":803.217,"text":"那作為一個戰爭的備糧小米就是全世界最公認的最好的一個漢作要提供糧食的自給率那2023年呢全球也訂定叫做小米年甚至很多國家包括中國已經把這個所謂的素小米列為第二公糧"},{"start":804.458,"end":832.049,"text":"這個就是為未來的世界做預備啊所以我也要特別的謝謝教育部農業部園民會在這個學期開始讓小米進入到國中小的營養午餐但是實施的學校只有30多校為什麼量不夠啊那為什麼量不夠明明有獎勵喔你看農糧署有一個綠色環境給付計畫喔但是裡面全國適用的41項作物沒有小米"},{"start":833.22,"end":856.639,"text":"也就種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付那地方可以自提可是全國只有台東有提到小米所以為什麼只有台東人在種小米因為有獎勵所以這個我等一下再一起回答那第二個沒有獎勵也就罷了財閥卻很多因為他一燒墾的時候空污法 消防法"},{"start":857.179,"end":884.262,"text":"其實呢空污法也沒有禁止但是很多的縣市他用他的辦法去逾越母法就是給予全面禁止所以也沒有人敢做三田燒梗所以我希望消防法這個部分也是應該來修因為希望在消防法裡面只要在第14條的第一項加上但其他法律有特別規定者不再此限這樣子就給我們打開一個生機啦那其實呢回到問題的核心我們園民會"},{"start":885.703,"end":905.868,"text":"有一個原基法第13條政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性要英語保護啊到現在這個法都還訂不出來那我們根本小米都長不出來要做什麼傳統作物的保護所以我覺得現在是一個契機那因為我只有剩下15秒我希望原民會就農糧署的有機農業"},{"start":907.228,"end":919.053,"text":"不得來用你們去修法希望對竹林只要冒出來那個覆蓋率不要去計算還有就這些所謂的樹梅子樹能夠把它增加那我想這個部分好謝謝吳立華委員質詢 謝謝謝謝卓院長 各位首長備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時47分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長好。剛才我聽到王委員有問一個問題，是關於烏山頭水庫上面設置光電板的事情，其實在我剛進入立法院的第一年，我記得當時水利署在牡丹水庫也曾經有一個要設置光電板的標案，不過流標了十幾次，後來有一位立法委員很積極的促成這件事情，當時地方的鄉公所代表會也特別跟我陳情，地方是因為不了解，所以比較傾向不同意，因此後來是沒有設置。多年後我才發現，這件事情雖然是合法的，但是有弊案發生，就是那位立委，現在很多人其實很容易把再生能源發展跟破壞環境、弊案掛鉤在一起，而形成了混淆。所以想要請教一下院長，關於烏山頭水庫設置光電板這件事情，到底合不合法？"],["龔部長明鑫：我可不可以……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，剛剛王委員提到的是管理辦法裡面的第五條「於蓄水範圍內為下列使用行為，其行為人應向其管理機關（構）申請許可」，這個的確是三年為限，但是重要的是，這指的是第三方向管理機構來申請使用的，如果你本身就是管理機關的話，你是可以透過招標自行設置，而不受這一條限制的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以基本上來講，烏山頭水庫因為管理機關是農業部，這是農業部招標的，所以法律上是沒有問題的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：了解。"],["龔部長明鑫：以上說明一下。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：彭部長也要補充嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，因為其實當地烏山頭水庫下游的農民，他們也在意水質有沒有問題，事實上，從這個光電板的上游還有下游，甚至到淨水場，我們都做了非常嚴密的水質檢驗，沒有受到光電板任何的影響，同時，裡面的PFAS，就是含氟的有機化合物，以目前來看的話，PFAS是遠低於歐盟認定的標準，所以烏山頭水庫的水質是相當好的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以在法令上是合法，那水質檢測也是必須要做的事情，都是透明可查。"],["彭部長啓明：透明可查的，沒有任何安全的疑慮。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我說明一下，比如以烏山頭水庫來講，它裝設光電板的部分只有占湖面的百分之一點多一點而已，而且如果是以民生用電來講其實是微幅，它主要是灌溉用的，我們的取水口離這個光電板距離非常非常遠，而且每天都會做水質的檢測，到我們的淨水場裡面去，所以是絕對沒有問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想其實水面上設置光電板，全世界都在做，甚至中國也做得很大、很多，我想只要我們依法行政，在安全、環境都沒有任何疑慮的情況下，對於我們再生能源的發展，這是一個很重要的步驟，謝謝。那因為……"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以跟委員稍微補充一下？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["陳部長駿季：烏山頭水庫的水質檢測，特別是外界所擔心的陰離子界面活性劑，它遠低於農業灌溉用水大概將近100倍，然後也遠低於食用的水，那現在有一個問題，就是因為外界一直在質疑，刻意的去引導說它可能是污染的，所以最近針對引用烏山頭水庫水源的這些農產品，價格開始在崩盤，特別是菱角。所以我在這邊也特別藉這個機會跟委員報告，其實烏山頭水庫的水質絕對是符合我們的標準，而且灌溉用水、民生用水都是標準的，也希望外界不要刻意造成一些恐慌，造成我們農產品價格持續的崩盤。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我希望我們每個部會都能夠加強訊息的澄清，因為這對我們整個社會韌性的發展非常重要，謝謝各位部長的說明。","我今天來其實是想要關心原住民土地的多元利用，不過我要先跟院長說，這一次花蓮的災情，其實中央部會有非常多的長官進駐到第一線去支援、協助，大家都很辛苦。其中馬太鞍溪堰塞湖，其實我們在地的族人一直有一個訴求，就是希望中繼安置，其實中繼安置在國際間已經有了，可是這是莫拉克災後重建的一個遺憾，因為是直接做永久屋的安置。那為什麼要做中繼安置？其實很簡單，重建家園可能三個月、可能半年、可能一年，但是我們希望在這一段時間不是被安置到依親或者去租屋，或者是去旅社，我們希望的是依照原住民的集體性跟社會韌性，我們能夠為我們後來的重建家園在一起做討論，這個部分現在內政部也都有聽到、原民會也都有聽到，如果能夠把中繼安置做好，我相信會得到我們花蓮族人很大的掌聲。","另外，在立霧溪燕子口造成的堰塞湖，我也要謝謝，因為劉世芳部長跟我們曾智勇主委有站上來，其實我們在做安置的當下，族人跟我們陳情反映說他們需要衛浴設備，當時打電話給原民會跟內政部長，4個小時內協調國防部，沐浴車就來了，哇！這個得到族人很大的掌聲，覺得有政府、有安心、會做事，我也藉這個機會感謝你們。但是後面有一個問題，就是關於封閉的問題，因為燕子口堰塞湖，它的量體大概是馬太鞍溪堰塞湖的0.2%，而且它距離很近，所以要處理很方便，可是卻要求全境太魯閣國家公園封閉，這個引起很大的討論，甚至是影響到我們的「向山致敬」政策，或者是我們的高山產業發展，那為什麼我會把這個做引子？我其實是要提到，我們人本來就是靠山吃山、靠海吃海，原住民也是一樣。","我先請院長了解，這幾年我們的獎勵造林提高了，年限縮短了，這個我很高興，後來禁伐補償金也要跟著獎勵造林提高而提高，謝謝行政院也做到了，我們也希望原住民的保留地能夠去做貸款，讓我們有融資，這個也快成功了，但是速度有點慢，我要講的是包括「自然碳匯」納入方法學，這些都是希望原住民的土地要多元利用。","我今天要談的是坡地的農業，請院長猜一猜簡報上這個水果，原民會主委也可以幫忙猜，這個是水蜜桃啊！院長或主委，知不知道這一公頃的水蜜桃淨賺多少？如果沒有什麼寒害、蟲害，農民一年一公頃淨賺多少？"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝委員。水蜜桃一年一公頃大概是淨賺370萬。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：確實。"],["曾主任委員智勇：差不多350萬到370萬。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我的數據是350萬，謝謝。一公頃的愛文芒果呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：愛文芒果一公頃應該是150萬左右。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以院長您聽到了，我其實問很多我們的族人，禁伐補償金一公頃是6萬元，獎勵造林現在一公頃是10萬，我問他們說：「你要造林還是禁伐？」很多人跟我講，特別是農民都說：「唉唷！我要種芒果比較好。」我問為什麼？因為他一年可以淨賺120萬到150萬，也就是一個月可以有十幾萬的收入。我覺得其實原住民並不是不想做土地的多元利用，但是我們看一下簡報上的圓餅圖，在原住民族地區的林、農用地就占了94%，而私有的原保地林地占全國原保地林地47%，甚至幾乎是全數都拿去做禁伐補償，為什麼？因為限制很多，我們很感謝農業部林保署有一個政策叫做林下經濟，但是我們現在就想問了，因為禁伐補償的條件是竹、木的覆蓋率要達7成，所以我們想要問這30%能不能夠開放耕作？剛才我有講了，因為我們會受制於森林法，現在很謝謝林保署有擴大林下經濟，但是我們希望項目更多元一點。","我們看一下林下經濟的作物，現在有開放9種，全部都是臺灣原生種，可是跟院長報告，很多林下都長咖啡，很多的愛玉是跟著樹在攀爬，很多樹林底下的山蘇都到處長，但是會遇到一個狀況，就是禁伐補償會因為它不是林下經濟允許的作物就把它扣除掉，就不能領禁伐補償，這會帶來很多的困擾，因為土地的多元利用會碰到所謂水保法裡的超限利用，就會造成它的禁伐補償被取消，現在看水保法施行細則第二十六條，其實它也沒有禁止啊！它有但書、有例外規定，即「但不包括依……其他依法得為農、漁、牧業之墾殖、經營或使用。」特別是國土計畫法上路之後，未來的國土功能分區劃設其實也把坡地的農業列入到農三的部分；我們也有一個原住民族土地使用管制規則，最新公告預告的草案就有提到，有關傳統耕作慣俗部分，涉及水土保持法、山坡地保育利用條例，可以透過鄉村地區整體規劃，就部落的實際需要，另訂土地使用管制規則。這個就是一線生機啊！所以我在這裡要當著院長的面請教一下農業部長，有沒有辦法修一下水土保持法的施行細則？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實這個議題在上次南投發生天然災害的時候，院長就有指示，那時候是針對公有林的部分，我們希望公有林也能夠得到一些天然災害救助，後來我們就從實際面來研議，我先講第一個就是原住民保留地禁伐補償的這些林業用地，不是說都不要去動它，以林業的角度來講，不能說都不動它，這反而是不好的，要適當地作經營的利用，所以林下經濟我們是鼓勵的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：非常謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分就是它要多少個百分比的面積，現在在公有地的部分，只要你保留30%的林地就可以了；第三個比較重要的是，您剛才講到咖啡，過去林下經濟的品項都是一個品項、一個品項開放，但現在是用原則性的，只要用有機的方法，不要影響生態就可以了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，我後面會講到。原民會主委，你聽到了吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長的態度就是政府的態度、就是院長的態度。我就繼續說，原民會要不要主動修禁伐補償？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會，我們現在也在想要怎麼主動來修正，我們也會跟農業部一起來研商。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：非常感謝。我前面談到的都是法令限制，至於現況方面我要講，因為氣候變遷的關係，所以我們必須要有一些耐旱作物作為戰爭的備糧，而小米就是全世界公認最好的旱作，可以提高糧食自給率。2023年全球訂定為小米年，很多國家包括中國在內，已經把這所謂的「粟」，也就是小米列為第二公糧，這就是為未來的世界做預備！所以我要特別謝謝教育部、農業部及原民會，從這個學期開始讓小米進入國中小的營養午餐，但實施的學校只有三十多所，為什麼？量不夠啊！為什麼量不夠？明明有獎勵，即農糧署的綠色環境給付計畫，但裡面全國適用的41項作物中沒有小米！也就是說種小米的人沒有辦法得到給付！雖然地方可以自提，不過目前全國只有臺東有提到小米，所以為什麼只有臺東人種小米？因為有獎勵啊！這些等一下再一起回答。","第二個，沒有獎勵也就罷了，裁罰卻很多，因為一燒墾就有空污法、消防法等問題。其實空污法也沒有禁止，但有很多縣市以辦法來逾越母法，給予全面禁止，以致沒有人敢山田燒墾。所以我希望消防法在這部分應該修正，只要在消防法第十四條第一項加上「但其他法律有特別規定者，不在此限」，這樣就給我們打開一線生機了。","回到問題核心，原民會的原基法第十三條提到，政府對原住民傳統生物多樣性應予保護。可是到現在這個法都還訂不出來，所以小米根本也長不出來，這樣要做什麼傳統作物的保護？我覺得現在是一個契機，因為我只剩下15秒時間，我希望原民會能就農糧署的有機農業不得來用這點去修法，希望竹林冒出來的不要計算為覆蓋率，還有讓梅子樹能夠增加，還有永續多元方案，我希望都可以一併修法，可以嗎，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。農業部有相關說明。"],["陳部長駿季：會後再跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長備詢。","接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢，張宏陸委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f938717e072108d23ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d219ddf0aee35279f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:06:29 - 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院長昨天監察院出了一份調查報告是針對太陽光電的問題他列舉了七大疏失跟問題不曉得這份報告院長你有沒有時間看了"},{"start":36.895,"end":51.09,"text":"抱歉我昨天都在看雨量沒有看好那應該不會裡面有人看到這份報告了在這份報告裡面呢他直指第一個問題就是這個太陽光電呢本來2025"},{"start":52.972,"end":75.748,"text":"要達到的目標是20GW但是呢到113年底只有14.28GW就是沒有達到目標那我請教院長事實上這個一再跳票已經是前任的經濟部部長他也已經承認了但是他允諾說2026年11月一定會達到20GW"},{"start":77.909,"end":105.25,"text":"現在這個問題我重新問院長既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎這個目標要不要重新修正這是我們現在的目標仍然是既定的目標你認為可以達成嗎全力以赴可以保證達標嗎當然是全力以赴而已"},{"start":106.55,"end":124.585,"text":"全力以赴這個監察院的報告我們也感覺這個就是五院體制的一個它的優好的地方他提出了內容對我們提醒的我們全力要自我檢討那如果有一些我們可以回覆的我們也會適當地說院長我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面他點出了非常多的問題"},{"start":125.746,"end":139.705,"text":"其中一個就是你的土地與農增地不只是與農增地你的餘電共生是你們現在要達到20GW最大的目標但是最近最大的問題就是有電無"},{"start":141.086,"end":161.747,"text":"有七成是審計部已經揪出來了那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成也就是你這個政策其實有非常大的問題更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候他也是信誓旦旦說漁電共生沒有問題很完美有魚有電"},{"start":162.888,"end":187.443,"text":"結果這是假象所以我要提出來是既然漁電共生也有問題既然與農徵地也有爭議現在水面型的光電的檢討聲浪也非常多請問你下一個目標你可以達到明年達到20GW你把目標放在哪裡好 謝謝委員我們也看到漁電共生 養的不夠多"},{"start":188.403,"end":202.591,"text":"讓地主來養魚這個問題 這個狀況我們已經看到了他的缺失所以農業部有提出了新的方式希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚那我們還是來重電看能不能讓嘗試 請部長來說明我跟委員說明"},{"start":205.012,"end":222.242,"text":"那我們現在在處理就是說漁電公司裡面的養魚的這些是由專業的漁卿來進場而且是在光電在設計的時候就參與他的一個設計部長我知道你講的都是一個理想化的模式現在已經在做在示範了"},{"start":222.862,"end":247.969,"text":"被審計部揪出來的過去發展的這幾年漁電共生並沒有真正達到他的目標就是因為過去我們發現到說由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的就直接讓他先發電不養魚就先發電就先開後門那個沒有拿到電業執照所以他沒有真正達到真正既合法又達到漁電共生符合標準"},{"start":250.41,"end":265.047,"text":"所以我要提醒的是這一個政策20GW雖然是你們的目標但是該修正了該怎麼修正就務實的面對問題為什麼我要指出來的是台灣我們的土地面積真的不大"},{"start":265.828,"end":283.621,"text":"想要發展太陽能光電屋頂型的大家沒有問題地面型的如果你有足夠的是荒廢的土地不是良地喔不要毀零重電不要我們看到高雄這樣的一個情況我也不要看到嘉義縣台塘要大規模去毀零重電"},{"start":284.682,"end":303.411,"text":"不是這種破壞土地的重點我們都支持但是你現在還有這麼大的落差你要達到這個目標我很擔心你們的亂象繼續往前推進這幾個這幾個指出來的問題我要就教院長就是請問您是由誰來負責解決這些問題"},{"start":305.652,"end":318.816,"text":"因為現在涉及到農業部涉及到經濟部涉及到內政部它是一個跨部會的請問監察院這份調查報告直指你的問題你的改善你的改善的報告你要由誰來負責督導統籌這所有的問題"},{"start":322.357,"end":336.66,"text":"報告委員我會很清楚的看完監察院的報告該哪個部會處理我們會依序下去剛剛您說過了這麼多的部會首長部會的業務都在裡面我們當然有一位政委會來負責是哪一位陳靜德政委是工程會的主委陳靜德政委會來統籌所有的那這樣的一個檢討報告你大概多久會提出來回應監察院"},{"start":351.873,"end":378.375,"text":"監察院的報告他如果沒有定時間我們盡快回應是我們在一個月內有一個完整的說明出來一個月內嗎那請你也有一份報告給立法院好不好好謝謝那接下來我要請教的就是水面型光電的一個問題在水面型光電的這個問題裡面呢我一張表給這個院長看一下特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情"},{"start":379.156,"end":399.903,"text":"我不知道院長你體察到的民意有多少但是我們可以看看這張圖表這個有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩有些地方是抗議之後喊停包括我現在這個經常去跑的嘉義我們看到南潭水庫仁義潭水庫還有"},{"start":401.864,"end":415.04,"text":"涉及到嘉義台南的這個增穩水庫這個都是在地方包括議會民代民眾強力反彈之後這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的這個計畫就是終止"},{"start":417.583,"end":434.006,"text":"那院長我要問你為什麼民眾對於民生用的水庫蓋光電板反彈會這麼的強烈你有體察到民意嗎第一個當然大家希望在保護環境之外第一個要優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全"},{"start":435.126,"end":449.633,"text":"我以前說過如果我們沒有辦法處理水質的問題的話那水庫上面做光電板的工作我們就勢必做不下去在目前看起來包括環境部所說的整個清洗的過程並沒有用到"},{"start":450.543,"end":475.623,"text":"不當的一些清潔用品那如果他也持續一直在監測水質的安全目前來看水質是可控的但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心所以在更有信心之前像台南烏山頭第二期他就停下來了只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話我們先跟地方溝通在沒有取得共識之前我想不會貿然再增加大型的這種水庫上好 院長我要給你建議"},{"start":476.784,"end":498.081,"text":"事實上你看到那幾個特別我今天特別關注的是民生用的水庫就是他百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水你剛才講到一個重點民眾對於食安的要求對於自己喝的水的要求那個是百分之百的堅持就像這杯水今天我要喝的這杯水"},{"start":499.468,"end":521.44,"text":"然後呢如果你上面加了一個塑膠的東西你說它是無毒無害然後委員放心這個好漂亮這個放在上面這個有功能然後你給它喝下去都沒有問題我要告訴這個部長你先不用講話你先不用打斷我我要告訴院長的是說有沒有必要"},{"start":522.561,"end":544.661,"text":"在要喝的水上面你去加裝任何的東西如果我們對於食安的要求對於水質的要求是這麼的高標準我給院長看一下我們現在有一個水庫蓄水區使用管理辦法我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了"},{"start":545.382,"end":571.901,"text":"因為他是對於我們水庫的源頭做了非常高強度的一個管理你知道嗎他連在上面要放伏具都不可以要申請行駛的船法你這是船法也不可以你要去放生魚類水產物不行喔這個通通都要管理那如果這些東西都要好好管理的話本席百分之百贊成"},{"start":573.82,"end":602.51,"text":"這麼大型的光電板設施浮在這個民生用的水庫上面你會不會覺得這個在道理上面民眾的直觀為什麼覺得不可以我要求我的水源是百分之百的乾淨啊你今天要在上面跟我加租任何東西你告訴我有多麼的安全我的答案當然是不可以不是不可以更是什麼不需要"},{"start":603.29,"end":625.672,"text":"沒有必要以國際的例子來看美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的而且他們的標準跟我們來看我們絕對不會落後給他們你如果要這樣子講我就要說那世界各國有核電為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來當講這個的時候你們就引用國際的例子當講到核能就是說台灣我們有我們自己的考量"},{"start":626.132,"end":650.984,"text":"我們台灣對於我們水庫水源的安全的保證我們就是要求一個高標準嘛另外一個我要看的是委員的高標準我們都接受我們都接受高標準不是因為我們台灣就是因為地窄人潮我還沒有講完齁這個條文裡面呢你除了要申請之外還有許可使用的期限不得超過三年"},{"start":651.784,"end":675.306,"text":"也就是他是採取一個高密度的監督跟管理你任何來申請的不能超過三年喔我請問你們現在關於水庫的一核准是幾年可以使用20年了經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理的辦法你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣子的一個管理辦法請說明"},{"start":677.32,"end":702.955,"text":"剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年如果他 那也違法只能三年 不可能違法他的許可使用年限不得超過三年你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎怎麼會沒有違法你的七年就超過三年怎麼沒有違法地方政府核定的這個管理辦法就違反這個管理辦法仔細看清楚"},{"start":704.793,"end":719.51,"text":"一次就是三年啊 除非它裡面有一個除非的條款喔因為你蓋的是一個永久性的設施許可的年限不受三年的規定我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎是啊 是什麼是什麼"},{"start":722.642,"end":749.559,"text":"浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎你們自己違法都不知道請問你們開什麼會法務部相關的法規的人員沒有人提出來嗎除非你有另立一個專法就是我的光電板設在水庫上面我突破了現行的管制跟規定有嗎有任何一位要上來說明嗎你們是突破哪一個法令的規定誰可以說明麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告"},{"start":751.818,"end":764.545,"text":"經濟部現在合訂的跟地方政府合訂的就是用七年來做標準那就違法水庫的我再跟你討論水庫的部分你現行的水庫蓄水使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的"},{"start":766.493,"end":793.296,"text":"因為他這個一次就是三年你為什麼可以合七年光電板他絕對不是一個臨時性搭上去的他是相當堅固的所以這次在相當堅固一個丹納斯颱風吹翻了多少的光電板相當堅固他是浮動式的啊他是漂浮在水面怎麼會非常堅固呢所以這一個部分我要求你們回去要給本席的檢討報告我現在找出來的資料你們就是違法"},{"start":794.517,"end":812.395,"text":"你們當時的開會記錄到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的你為什麼可以先給業者這麼長的時間這就是很明顯的違法嘛那這件事情我要跟院長報告的是我今天站在就是人民的角度而已"},{"start":812.995,"end":840.173,"text":"人民為什麼不願意我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水民生水庫我們台灣有缺電缺道我們這麼少量的珍貴的民生用的水庫一定要拿來放置蓋水面型光電板然後讓民眾焦慮不安有必要嗎"},{"start":843.476,"end":861.855,"text":"這個部分我希望院長你好好思考該怎麼決定不需要的你也可以立場很清楚告訴全國民眾以後民生用水庫完全排除在光電廠的開發我們也不開發水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面"},{"start":862.935,"end":890.592,"text":"爭議就結了很多民眾的反彈是我喝的水我不允許在源頭放置這樣的一個東西我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難爭議就在這邊而已把它切掉很多問題其實就沒有那麼的嚴重我的建議是這樣子"},{"start":891.332,"end":903.978,"text":"在已經現有的我們持續加強水質的監測那未來的如果沒有消除地方的疑慮而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話那這個政策的討論我們會慎重來檢討"},{"start":906.31,"end":927.957,"text":"我覺得民生水庫至少現在依法你們現在核出去的都超過三年這個已經違法了我的立場很清楚我幫民眾請命不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施也發不了多少電救不了多少綠能的20GW的目標接下來我要討論一個問題是我們現在少子化的問題"},{"start":928.897,"end":943.454,"text":"我們現在少子化真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施前陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂讓很多家長都炸鍋了它的利益我不能說是不好"},{"start":944.235,"end":960.675,"text":"但是他的執行方式跟手段跟完全忽略了這一個有育兒家庭的這些家長他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中搭乘公共運輸過程當中他的確他就是孩子會哭鬧"},{"start":961.576,"end":986.537,"text":"但是你用了一個寧靜車廂讓他壓力倍增就整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候他突然他會變得他很突兀然後他會被指責然後有一些人甚至有厭痛的情緒然後就矛頭就會看向這個帶著小孩的家長所以我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利我們接到非常多家長的抱怨但是我個人認為這件事情是有解放的"},{"start":987.017,"end":1013.536,"text":"我們看看在其他先進國家他們會運用的方式就是我有親子車廂我讓有小孩的家長我們在親子車廂裡面就是大家這種包容性都很強而且他可以有一些很有善的措施你看看像德國的高鐵他們就有幼兒的包廂措施在裡面包括他設計他的這個嬰兒車的停放區也空間比較大也方便家長可以出來"},{"start":1014.116,"end":1040.311,"text":"我們看到在瑞士的國鐵也是有這樣的一個親子車廂就是這樣的一個措施我認為是我們一個進步的象徵也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候我們可以對家長更友善一點但是很可惜我在委員會的時候當天部長你沒有出席是次長出席談到這個議題的時候高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成他們都覺得不可行"},{"start":1040.791,"end":1067.174,"text":"他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情那今天兩位都在現場我想請問你們的意見比照新進國家我們去設置親子車廂真的這麼不可行嗎報告委員 寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的啦講話啦 講電話啦 聽音樂不要吵到別人但絕對不是針對嬰兒嬰幼兒的聲音那至於說高鐵因為它也是一個營運的單位"},{"start":1067.728,"end":1084.093,"text":"那要設置這樣的這個親子車廂包括剛剛說嬰兒車的存放的這個位置要擴大等等都要牽涉到車廂車體的改變那這個部分剛剛您說過在高鐵當天是沒有同意那我請部長再跟高鐵能夠再做溝通一下"},{"start":1085.496,"end":1105.466,"text":"其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的我覺得我們的國家要進步到這樣的程度是比較好但感謝您的關心就是說確實如果有一些車廂是有餘育的空間如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆這絕對是好事"},{"start":1107.587,"end":1123.781,"text":"不過高鐵其實遇到一個狀況就是現在是運能不足 運量不足因為每天都很塞 坦白講如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難但是我們有可能像台鐵它有一些支線是比較旅遊型的"},{"start":1125.442,"end":1153.371,"text":"那他每天的載運量也沒有這麼大壓力不這麼大的時候或許我們有些車廂可以做這樣子讓親子更友善或者是小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境那這個部分其實我們可以來整體來思考台灣有很多的運距空間那我們來思考說哪些運距空間是可以朝這個方向下去做安排或者是做改善的這個我們來討論但是整體的所有的交通的環境我們都希望他是親子友善"},{"start":1153.891,"end":1181.341,"text":"不管是在哪一個車廂即便是在高鐵的商務車廂應該要親子友善才對您的這個利益非常良善這個當然是我們追求最高目標大家都應該要對孩子友善但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會就是有人對於孩子的聲音他的容忍度就是很低他希望他在搭他的這個車廂的時候呢最好就是不要出現這些聲音那些人的意見"},{"start":1182.361,"end":1206.617,"text":"也可以理解所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂這個完全都可以理解我們解決問題呢就是也不能耗高物源你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態這個也是我們從事兒童工作認為大家都應該這麼友善但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想所以才會有所謂厭痛的情緒那你處理這種多元的議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權"},{"start":1208.098,"end":1237.26,"text":"我剛剛講的這樣的一個建議我不是要高鐵一下子就整個車廂打造的像德國這樣子這麼好但至少他可以先做什麼事情就是你可以告訴大家譬如說你現在指定第五車廂或者是第七車廂叫做親子車廂讓家長可以先訂票而且讓教育大眾就是說我對外講這個叫親子車廂親子可以優先訂票我帶小孩優先訂票到這個車廂然後如果你買不到票的不是親子車廂只有親子可以坐"},{"start":1238.041,"end":1258.043,"text":"其他你如果買不到票所以不會排擠你的座位問題其他人呢你如果買不到票你買到親子車廂有一點點心理準備這個車廂小孩子比較多可能聲音會比較大所以他自己也接受了就不會抱怨但他的好處是什麼你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長"},{"start":1258.764,"end":1276.785,"text":"你讓他在親子車廂是安心的不用接受質疑的眼光孩子要大聲就大聲孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧而且你高鐵可以把你所有你要給孩子的乖乖你要安撫孩子的工具你的人員你就集中在這個車廂你從這邊開始做起"},{"start":1278.627,"end":1305.864,"text":"而未來你新的車廂的購入你在下一個階段你可以透過空間的改造達到更符合民府其實的親子車廂我認為處理這個政策是這樣的完全不增加它的成本但是有沒有解決現行的爭議我覺得是有的而且它的寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實也是可以的這個叫做兩全其美"},{"start":1307.004,"end":1324.319,"text":"我希望這個政策你們可以好好去思考這個真的是一個在不增加成本你先讓大家家長有這個方便解除他的壓力我認為這個是可以往前推進的目前雖然台鐵是虧損但是我之前有立法"},{"start":1324.98,"end":1351.202,"text":"那這個台鐵呢其實他們也做現在台鐵反而是有親子車廂的也頗受好評一個虧損的公司但在這件事情他是配合政府的立法跟政策也做得不錯所以高鐵我相信以他的高效率跟營運的能力沒有不行的而且我們可以做成是亞洲的典範最友善親子的典範這一點我提供你們參考我認為是可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理"},{"start":1352.943,"end":1375.448,"text":"接下來我要問的是少子化的議題我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有前任的衛福部部長已經在委員會我們多次詢問他說有 已經在研議現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問他說參考了德國的專責單位他很有感回來之後會繼續推"},{"start":1377.668,"end":1405.726,"text":"請問要設立這個兒少的專責單位這件事情那個院長知道嗎就是你有允諾要設立嗎我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎我們有接受過這樣的意見設立個專責單位所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策政策的整個的政策上的擬定推動等等那當然這是一個跨部會的所以他需要有政委來做主導"},{"start":1406.747,"end":1422.639,"text":"同時我們會不定期的召開相關的會議也會提出一些對潮指化政策所需要的一些配套的措施包括福利政策等等那這個都在跨部會當中來運作那現在感覺是目前的運作是針對問題來解決問題而不是設置一個機構一個專責的機構來解決這個問題"},{"start":1427.796,"end":1445.141,"text":"目前的解決問題的過程跟能力目前還算是順暢我們朝這個方向繼續長化這個院長我要跟你討論一個問題就是說我們其實跟日本很友好很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走日本他是怎麼處理問題的"},{"start":1446.621,"end":1461.547,"text":"它是先設立了一個兒童家庭廳它是在首相之下也就是等於在我們台灣就是在院長您之下直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳它是用這樣子的一個專門的組織跟規模跟層級來回應"},{"start":1465.368,"end":1477.737,"text":"它現在的少子化的議題因為你夠重視就當然會有這一個專責單位就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部的部長我們的李洋部長在現場就是我們夠重視運動我們有運動部"},{"start":1480.279,"end":1509.649,"text":"如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化的問題夠重視兒少的議題也應該要有一個專責單位這個是很多民間單位已經推動非常久那現在也該到了要決斷的時候為什麼因為今年的新生兒的出生率史上最低恐怕不到12萬這個是一個很恐怖的數字如果是人口學專家他大概就是焦慮到睡不著了"},{"start":1510.149,"end":1529.517,"text":"因為這個以下的如果是掉到12萬以下我們的國力也好我們將來的生產力也好各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅面對了在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中這個是根本就是說你沒有從一個"},{"start":1531.678,"end":1545.357,"text":"組織的高度來解決問題的時候你只會頭痛一頭腳痛一腳就是你所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變因為你沒有一個好的組織"},{"start":1546.198,"end":1568.307,"text":"跟好的人才專心來想這件事情因為大家業務都很繁忙新的衛福部部長不忙嗎很忙啊他醫療的問題像是電子菸的問題加熱菸的問題很多啊疾病管理的問題誰專心來想這件事情呢那你不能只有陳時中政委一個人啊對不對三頭六病只有一個人很難啊"},{"start":1569.648,"end":1578.967,"text":"你要一群人好好的在這件事情有做一個好的政策上面的思考我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談"},{"start":1580.414,"end":1599.422,"text":"是不是院長你可以回去仔細的開會討論然後給外界一個回應這個專責單位不能說前任部長說要設次長人在德國說要設結果我現在在這個院會正式詢問的時候院長回答不出來也沒有說一定要設"},{"start":1600.522,"end":1621.25,"text":"我會再跟次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一個什麼樣國際上先進的作為不過跟委員報告我們現在這個階段我們會從兒童少年以及家庭支持會有一個新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做包括兒童的健康 兒童的預防 兒童的權益照顧那是什麼樣的成績"},{"start":1623.106,"end":1644.06,"text":"那在部會下面現在部會下面做這個事情先在部會下做這個事情那以後我們跟次長來談談看國外好的經驗來如果我們真的有能力需要做到那個程度的話直接跟院長報告德國他就是原本他把衛生福利跟家庭的部門放在一起也是在他下面他現在是分開了"},{"start":1644.921,"end":1668.198,"text":"就是他独立的一个部门他不是在下面他就是一个专责单位所以我希望这个院长可以好好思考另外最后的时间我要问也因应这个问题我有看到行政院在动10月27号有全国的婚姻御宅开始开放申请这是一个好的起点但是我必须坦白讲这个户数太少了"},{"start":1668.818,"end":1687.77,"text":"然後設定12年我無法理解一個婚育家庭他的小孩他今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅孩子國小畢業之後我們就得搬家了沒有辦法在這個區域念完國中你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的"},{"start":1688.43,"end":1713.788,"text":"他們都是20年等孩子長大成人之後他才會更換為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢孩子念到國小就要搬家你知道一個搬家對一個家庭來講他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換為什麼當時在思考政策的時候這麼的短而不是放大到他的這個年限至少讓他到國高中畢業之後"},{"start":1715.948,"end":1735.419,"text":"謝謝委員 這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少我們會像快速來增加那因為它基本上它還是涉宅的成分它還是涉宅的性質所以它有一種轉換率的需求如果我們涉宅達到我們的預定目標之後這個年限當然是可以再放寬的這個內政部都有相關的推演過程"},{"start":1736.827,"end":1762.146,"text":"我今天要表達就是說這個對於婚姻家庭來講是不夠的因為我去大學演講很多年輕朋友他們現在最焦慮的確是住的問題當我跟他們講說南韓有這麼好的一個政策鼓勵婚姻家庭他們聽了很羨慕他們希望他們問了一個問題就是說委員請問我們台灣什麼時候要比照南韓"},{"start":1762.887,"end":1789.198,"text":"可以有這樣的一個婚育宅可以讓我們真的想結婚的人我們可以擁有房子可以在裡面安心的生小孩這個是年輕人我在第一線聽到最真實的聲音他們羨慕的不得了我希望好想迎南海不是口號我們真的在婚育宅的政策我們也可以超越他我希望這部分是不是院長你回去之後可以指示相關的部門"},{"start":1789.818,"end":1804.575,"text":"我們現在台場有那麼多的土地我們其實還有很多的空間我們現在這個起步我肯定就是27號上路的婚禦宅但是我要告訴大家的是真的這個數量遠遠不夠"},{"start":1805.696,"end":1830.079,"text":"現在年輕人住宅真的是他最大的一個問題我希望在這個部分我們回去之後內政部來在這邊回去加強而且去盤點我們需要更大的量而且那個期效不能只是12年好不好我們現金盤點48萬戶以上好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉敏委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":1835.015,"end":1839.194,"text":"我們現在休息十分鐘第一階段謝謝吳宗憲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時6分）謝謝院長，我們現在請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：院長好。院長，昨天監察院出了一份調查報告，是針對太陽光電的問題，報告中列舉了七大疏失跟問題，不曉得院長有沒有時間看這份報告？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，我昨天都在看雨量，所以沒有看。"],["王委員育敏：好，部會裡面應該有人看到這份報告了。"],["龔部長明鑫：有。"],["王委員育敏：在這份報告裡面直指的第一個問題是太陽光電本來2025年要達到的目標是20GW，但是到113年底只有14.28GW，就是沒有達到目標。事實上，這個部分一再跳票，前任的經濟部部長也已經承認了，但是他有允諾2026年11月一定會達到20GW。現在我重新問院長這個問題，既然監察院已經指出有這麼多的問題，太陽光電在發展過程當中最近爭議也很多，真的在2026年11月可以達到20GW嗎？這個目標要不要重新修正？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是我們現在的目標。"],["龔部長明鑫：仍然是我們的目標。"],["王委員育敏：仍然是既定的目標？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["王委員育敏：你認為可以達成嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：全力以赴。"],["王委員育敏：可以保證達標嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是全力以赴啊！"],["王委員育敏：全力以赴？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，關於監察院的報告，我們也感覺到這個就是五院體制一個好的地方，在報告中提出了這些內容，對我們提醒的，我們要全力自我檢討，那如果有一些我們可以回復的，我們也會做適當的說明。"],["王委員育敏：院長，我想提醒你的就是在這份報告裡面點出了非常多的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：其中一個就是你要用的土地是與農爭地，不只是與農爭地，你的漁電共生是你們現在要以達到20GW為最大的目標，但是最近最大的問題就是有電無魚，有七成是審計部已經揪出來了，那現在真正達到漁電共生的其實不到一成，也就是你們的這個政策其實有非常大的問題。更早之前在王美花擔任經濟部部長的時候，他也是信誓旦旦的說漁電共生沒有問題，很完美，有魚有電，結果這是假象。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，沒有，它是在……"],["王委員育敏：所以我要提出來的是，既然漁電共生也有問題，既然與農爭地也有爭議，現在水面型光電的檢討聲浪也非常多，請問你下一個目標是明年可以達到20GW嗎？你把目標放在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，我們也看到漁電共生的魚養得不夠多，讓地主來養魚的這個狀況，我們已經看到其缺失，所以農業部有提出新的方式，希望能夠用新的觀念跟新的做法引進專業的人來養魚，那我們還是來種電，看能不能這樣嘗試，請部長來說明。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們現在在處理的就是，漁電共生裡面養魚的是由這些專業的漁青來進場，而且是在光電設計的時候就參與設計。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我知道，你講的都是理想化的模式。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，現在已經在做、在試辦了。"],["王委員育敏：但是現實被審計部揪出來的是，過去發展的這幾年，漁電共生並沒有真正達到目標。"],["陳部長駿季：因為過去我們發現由光電業者去經營漁業是有一些困難的。"],["王委員育敏：而且你們很多是開後門，就直接讓它先發電，不養魚就先發電，先開後門。"],["龔部長明鑫：那個沒有拿到電業執照，有電網，但是沒有拿到執照。"],["王委員育敏：對，所以它沒有真正達到暨合法又達到漁電共生，符合標準。"],["龔部長明鑫：是，那個就是沒有在議程裡面……"],["王委員育敏：所以我要提醒的是，20GW這個政策雖然是你們的目標，但是該修正了，該怎麼修正就務實地面對問題，為什麼？我要指出來的是，我們臺灣的土地面積真的不大，想要發展太陽能光電，屋頂型的大家沒有問題，地面型的如果有足夠的荒廢土地，不是良地，不要毀林種電，不要像我們看到如高雄這樣的情況，我也不要看到嘉義縣台糖要大規模去毀林種電，不是這種破壞土地的種電，我們都支持。但是你現在還有這麼大的落差，你要達到這個目標，我很擔心像這樣的亂象繼續往前推進。我要就教院長，這幾個指出來的問題，請問是由誰來負責解決這些問題？因為現在涉及到農業部，涉及到經濟部，涉及到內政部，它是一個跨部會的問題，請問監察院這份調查報告直指出來的問題，你的改善報告要由誰來負責督導統籌所有的問題？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我會很清楚地看完監察院的報告，該哪個部會處理，我們會依序下去，剛剛你說過涉及這麼多的部會首長、部會業務都在裡面，我們當然會有一位政委來負責。"],["王委員育敏：是哪一位？"],["卓院長榮泰：陳金德政委是工程會的主委。"],["王委員育敏：所以陳金德政委會來統籌所有的事項，這樣的檢討報告大概多久會提出來回應監察院？"],["卓院長榮泰：監察院的報告如果沒有訂時間，我們儘快回應，我們在一個月內會有完整的說明出來。"],["王委員育敏：一個月內，請你也提供一份報告給立法院，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。","接下來我要請教的是水面型光電的問題，在水面型光電的問題裡面，我有一張表要給院長看一下，特別是有關於民生水庫上面要蓋光電板這件事情，我不知道院長體察到的民意有多少？但是我們可以看看這張圖表，有的地方是抗議之後現在暫緩，有些地方是抗議之後喊停，包括我現在經常去跑的嘉義，我們看到蘭潭水庫、仁義潭水庫，還有涉及到嘉義、臺南的曾文水庫，都是在地方包括議會、民代、民眾強力反彈之後，這一些民生水庫要蓋光電板的計畫就中止，請問院長，為什麼民眾對於民生用水庫要蓋光電板的反彈會這麼強烈，你有體察到民意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然大家希望在保護環境之外，第一個優先的是自己喝的水的水質要能夠安全，我以前說過，如果我們沒有辦法處理水質問題的話，水庫上面做光電板的工作就勢必做不下去，在目前看起來，包括環境部所說的，整個清洗的過程並沒有用到一些不當的清潔用品，它也持續一直在監測水質安全，目前來看，水質是可控的，但我們要進一步讓國人更有信心。所以在更有信心之前，像臺南烏山頭水庫第二期就停下來了，只要地方政府有提出這種異議的聲音的話，我們會先跟地方溝通，在沒有取得共識之前，我想不會貿然再增加大型水庫上的……"],["王委員育敏：院長，我要給你建議，事實上，你剛剛看到的那幾個，我今天特別關注的是民生用水庫，它百分之百是提供給民眾喝的水，你剛才講到一個重點，民眾對於食安的要求、對於自己喝的水的要求是百分之百堅持，就像今天我要喝的這杯水，如果上面加了一個塑膠的東西，你說它是無毒、無害，然後說委員放心，這個好漂亮、這個放在上面有功能，你把它喝下去都沒有問題！我要告訴……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，那個電板跟淨水場離很遠。"],["王委員育敏：部長，你先不用講話，先不要打斷我。我要告訴院長的是，有沒有必要在要喝的水上面去加裝任何的東西？如果我們對於食安的要求、對於水質的要求是這麼高標準，我給院長看一下，我們現在有一個水庫蓄水範圍使用管理辦法，我不曉得你有沒有看過這個辦法？我覺得這個辦法寫得太好了！因為它是對於水庫源頭做了非常高強度的管理，你知道嗎？它連在上面要放浮具都不可以，要申請；行駛船筏也不可以；你要去放生魚類、水產物，不行喔！這個通通都要管理。如果這些東西都要好好管理的話，本席百分之百贊成，這麼大型的光電板設施浮在民生用的水庫上面，你會不會覺得這在道理上、民眾的直觀為什麼會覺得不可以，我要求水源是百分之百的乾淨，今天要在上面加諸任何東西，你告訴我有多麼地安全，我的答案當然是不可以！不只是不可以，更是不需要！沒有必要！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，以國際的例子來看，美國、德國、日本、韓國都有類似的狀況，而且他們的標準跟我們相比，我們絕對不會落後於他們。"],["王委員育敏：院長，如果你要這樣子講，我就要說世界各國有核電，為什麼我們要把核能通通都停下來？當你講這個的時候，你們就引用國際例子，當講到核能，你就說臺灣有我們自己的考量，臺灣對於水庫水源的安全保證，我們就是要求一個高標準嘛！另外一個，我要看的是今天的……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的高標準，我們都接受，我們都接受高標準，臺灣就是因為地窄人稠……"],["王委員育敏：另外一個，我還沒有講完，我還沒有講完……"],["龔部長明鑫：所以我們的淨水場都會有檢測。"],["王委員育敏：在這個條文裡面，除了要申請之外，還有許可使用期限不得超過三年，也就是它採取一個高密度的監督跟管理，任何來申請的不能超過三年，我請問你們現在關於水庫的申請一核准是幾年？可以使用二十年啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：七年。"],["王委員育敏：經濟部你們是怎麼違法突破這一個管理辦法？你是用了哪一個法來凌駕這樣的管理辦法？請說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說我們核准第一期是七年，如果它……"],["王委員育敏：那也違法啊！只能三年啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有違法啊！哪有違法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不可能違法。"],["王委員育敏：它的許可使用年限不得超過三年啊！你們沒有好好看這個條文嗎？怎麼會沒有違法？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有、沒有。"],["王委員育敏：你的七年就超過三年，怎麼沒有違法？"],["龔部長明鑫：地方政府核定的。"],["王委員育敏：所以就違反這個管理辦法啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有違反管理辦法。"],["王委員育敏：仔細看清楚，一次就是三年啊！它裡面有一個例外條款，如果蓋的是一個永久性的設施，許可使用年限不受三年的規定。"],["龔部長明鑫：是啊、是啊！"],["王委員育敏：我請問你光電板是永久性設施嗎？你說是啊，是什麼？"],["龔部長明鑫：它是很長期的。"],["王委員育敏：是什麼？浮動式的光電板是永久性的設施嗎？你們自己違法都不知道，請問你們開什麼會？法務部相關的法規人員沒有人提出來嗎？除非你有另立一個專法，就是光電板設在水庫上面，突破了現行的管制跟規定，有嗎？有任何一位要上來說明嗎？你們是突破哪一個法令的規定？誰可以說明，麻煩現在請上來跟本席報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部現在核定的跟地方政府核定的就是用七年來做標準……"],["王委員育敏：那就違法啊！我在跟你討論是水庫的部分，現行的水庫蓄水範圍使用管理辦法就是這樣寫的。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它這個……"],["王委員育敏：一次就是三年，你為什麼可以核七年？"],["卓院長榮泰：光電板絕對不是臨時性搭上去的，它是相當堅固的，所以這次在……"],["王委員育敏：相當堅固？一個丹娜絲颱風吹翻了多少個光電板，相當堅固？"],["卓院長榮泰：這次在嘉義出現的那幾個毀損……"],["王委員育敏：它是浮動式的啊！它是漂浮在水面，怎麼會是非常堅固呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以丹娜絲這個……"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，它是固定式的。"],["王委員育敏：所以這個部分，我要求你們回去要給本席一份檢討報告，依我現在找出來的資料，你們就是違法。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們請經濟部來說明這個事情。"],["王委員育敏：你們當時的開會紀錄，到底是怎麼架空這個法令去突破的？為什麼你可以先給業者這麼長的時間？這就是很明顯的違法嘛！這件事情我要跟院長報告的是，我今天就是站在人民的角度而已，人民為什麼不願意？我今天沒有告訴你說滯洪池所有水面型光電都不准開發，我今天在告訴你的是關於民生用水、民生水庫，臺灣有缺電缺到……我們這麼少量、珍貴的民生用水庫，一定要拿來放置水面型光電板，然後讓民眾焦慮不安，有必要嗎？於法也不符。","這個部分我希望院長好好思考，該怎麼決定，不需要的！你也可以立場很清楚地告訴全國民眾，以後民生用水庫完全排除光電廠的開發，也不開發，水面型光電一律不會放在民生水庫上面，爭議就解了，很多民眾的反彈是因為他喝的水，他不允許在源頭放置這樣的東西。我覺得處理政策也沒有那麼困難，但是一旦你失去了一些彈性跟根據民意的判斷思考之後，你會讓自己陷入一個更大的困難，爭議就在這邊而已，把它切掉，很多問題其實就沒有那麼嚴重了，我的建議是這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。已經現有的，我們持續加強水質的監測；未來的，如果沒有消除地方的疑慮，而且我們對水質監測沒有更有效直接的方式的話，那麼這個政策的討論，我們會慎重來檢討。"],["王委員育敏：好，我覺得民生水庫至少依法……你們現在核出去的都超過三年，這個已經違法了，我的立場很清楚，我幫民眾請命，不應該在民生水庫上面再加設光電板的設施，也發不了多少電、救不了多少綠能20GW的目標。","接下來我要討論的是我們現在少子化的問題，因為現在少子化，所以真的要多一些友善育兒家庭的措施，前一陣子高鐵提出來的寧靜車廂，讓很多家長都炸鍋了，它的立意我不能說是不好，但是它的執行方式跟手段完全忽略了育兒家庭的這些家長，他帶孩子在旅行的過程當中、搭乘公共運輸的過程當中，的確孩子就是會哭鬧，但是它用了一個寧靜車廂，讓他壓力倍增，在整個車廂都沒有聲音的時候，他會變得很突兀，然後他會被指責，而且有一些人甚至有厭童的情緒，矛頭就會指向帶著小孩的家長，我覺得這樣子真的是對家長非常不利，我們接到非常多家長的抱怨。","但是我個人認為這件事情是有解方的，我們看看其他先進國家，他們會運用的方式就是設置親子車廂，讓有小孩的家長在親子車廂裡面，大家的包容性都很強，而且可以有一些很友善的措施，你看看像德國的高鐵，他們就有幼兒的包廂措施，在裡面包括設計嬰兒車的停放區空間也比較大，也方便家長可以出來；我們再看瑞士的國鐵，也是有這樣的親子車廂。","關於這樣的措施，我認為是一個進步的象徵，也是我們現在在回應少子化議題的時候，我們可以對家長更友善一點。但是很可惜，我在委員會的時候，當天部長沒有出席，是次長出席，談到這個議題的時候，高鐵董事長跟次長都沒有贊成，他們都覺得不可行，他覺得高鐵沒有辦法做這件事情，今天兩位都在現場，我想請問你們的意見，我們比照先進國家去設置親子車廂，真的這麼不可行嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，寧靜車廂的用意我想都是好的，講話、講電話、聽音樂都不要吵到別人，但絕對不是針對嬰幼兒的聲音。至於高鐵，因為它也是一個營運單位，所以要設置這樣的親子車廂，包括剛剛說嬰兒車放的位置要擴大等等，這都牽涉到車廂、車體的改變，這個部分剛剛您說高鐵當天是沒有同意，我請部長再跟高鐵做溝通。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我覺得整個乘坐的環境都應該是親子的環境，不是設定哪一個車廂才是親子的，我覺得我們國家要進步到這樣的程度比較好。感謝您在關心，確實如果有一些車廂是有餘裕的空間，如果有一些親子更友善的環境可以讓小朋友在那裡更輕鬆，這絕對是好事。不過，高鐵其實遇到一個狀況，現在是運能不足、運量不足，坦白講每天都很塞，如果我們要改一個車廂出來做親子，我覺得對高鐵來講或許是困難的；但是像臺鐵有一些支線是比較旅遊型的，它每天的載運量也沒有這麼大，壓力沒這麼大的時候，或許我們有些車廂可以設計成讓親子更友善，或者是讓小朋友更輕鬆的一個環境，這個部分其實我們可以整體來思考，臺灣有很多的運具空間，我們來思考哪些運具空間是可以朝這個方向去做安排或者是做改善的，這個我們來討論。但是整體的、所有的交通環境，我們都希望它是親子友善，不管是在哪一個車廂，即便是在高鐵的商務車廂也應該是要親子友善才對。"],["王委員育敏：好，部長，您的立意非常良善，這個當然是我們追求的最高目標，大家都應該要對孩子友善，但是你不能否認我們現在這個社會，有人對於孩子的聲音容忍度就是很低，他希望在搭車的時候，最好就是不要出現這些聲音，那些人的意見也可以理解，所以為什麼高鐵推出寧靜車廂，這個完全都可以理解。但我們解決問題也不能好高騖遠，你講的那個是一個最理想的狀態，像我們從事兒童工作會認為大家都應該這麼友善，但這個社會就是有人不是這麼想，所以才會有所謂厭童的情緒，而處理這種多元議題最好的方式是各自都有選擇權。","我剛剛講的建議，我不是要高鐵一下子就能夠把整個車廂打造得像德國這樣子這麼好，但至少它可以先做什麼事情？你可以告訴大家，比如說你現在指定第5車廂或者是第7車廂為親子車廂，讓家長可以先訂票，而且教育大眾，對外講這個叫親子車廂，親子可以優先訂票，我帶小孩優先訂這個車廂。當然，如果你買不到票的，親子車廂不是只有親子可以坐，其他買不到票的人也可以坐，所以不會有排擠座位的問題，其他人若買不到票，你買到親子車廂就要有一點點心理準備，這個車廂小孩子比較多，可能聲音會比較大，所以他自己也接受了，就不會抱怨。但它的好處是什麼？你讓很多要帶小孩出門的家長在親子車廂是安心的，不用接受質疑的眼光，孩子要大聲就大聲，孩子要喧鬧就喧鬧，而且高鐵可以把所有要給孩子的乖乖、要安撫孩子的工具及人員就集中在這個車廂，從這邊開始做起；至於未來新購入的車廂就是下一個階段，你可以透過空間的改造，達到更名符其實的親子車廂。我認為處理這個問題的政策是這樣，完全不增加它的成本，但是有沒有解決現行的爭議？我覺得是有的，而且寧靜車廂可不可以某種程度在其他車廂更落實？也是可以的，這個叫做兩全其美。我希望你們可以好好去思考這個政策，這是不增加成本的，你先讓家長方便，解除他的壓力，我認為這個是可以往前推進的。","臺鐵目前雖然是虧損的，但是之前我們有立法，所以其實臺鐵他們也做了，現在反而臺鐵是有親子車廂的，也頗受好評，一個虧損的公司在做這件事情，它是配合政府的立法跟政策，也做得不錯。所以我相信以高鐵的高效率跟營運能力，沒有不行的，而且我們可以成為亞洲的典範，最友善親子的典範，這一點提供你們參考，我認為可以在政策上面做一個不錯的處理。","接下來我要問的是少子化的議題，我們現在連一個專責單位都沒有。部長，前任的衛福部部長在委員會我們已經多次詢答，他說：有，已經在研議；而現在的衛福部次長正在德國訪問，他說參考了德國的專責單位，他很有感，回來之後會繼續推。請問要設立兒少的專責單位這件事情，院長知道嗎？你有允諾要設立嗎？我們會往這個方向持續前進嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有接受過這樣的意見，對於設立一個專責單位，所以我們就回頭檢討現在在行政院內部對於少子化對策在整個政策上的擬訂、推動等等，當然這是跨部會的，所以需要由政委來做主導。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：同時我們會不定期召開相關的會議，也會提出對少子化政策所需要的一些配套措施，包括福利政策等等，這個都是在跨部會當中來運作，現在的運作是針對問題來解決問題，而不是設置一個專責的機構來解決這個問題，目前解決問題的過程跟能力還算是順暢，我們朝這個方向繼續強化。"],["王委員育敏：順暢嗎？院長，我要跟你討論一個問題，我們跟日本很友好，很多政策我們其實也會跟著日本走，日本是怎麼處理問題的？他們先設立了一個兒童家庭廳，是在首相之下……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["王委員育敏：在我們臺灣就等於是在院長您之下，直屬您的一個兒童家庭廳，他們是用這樣子的一個專門組織跟規模、層級來回應現在的少子化議題，因為夠重視，當然就會有這一個專責單位，就像我們看到今天現場有一個運動部部長，李洋部長在現場，就是我們夠重視運動，我們有運動部。如果我們整個政府要好好的來回應少子化問題，夠重視兒少議題，也應該要有一個專責單位，這是很多民間單位已經推動非常久，現在也到了該要決斷的時候，為什麼？因為今年新生兒的出生率是史上最低，恐怕不到12萬，這是一個很恐怖的數字，如果是人口學專家，他們大概焦慮到睡不著了，因為出生率如果掉到12萬以下，對於我們的國力也好、將來的生產力也好，各方面的衝擊都是國安層級的，所以我認為這個問題應該要非常嚴肅來面對了。","在院長您諸多繁忙的公務當中，這個是根本，你沒有從一個組織的高度來解決問題的時候，你只會頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，所有推出來的政策不會有一個翻轉性的改變，因為你沒有一個好的組織跟好的人才專心來想這件事情，大家業務都很繁忙，新的衛福部部長不忙嗎？很忙，他處理醫療的問題，一下子電子煙的問題、加熱菸的問題，很多疾病管理的問題，誰專心在想這件事情呢？不能只有陳時中政委一個人，對不對？三頭六臂，只有一個人很難啊！要有一群人好好的在這件事情上做一個好的政策思考，我希望這件事情不要一直都是空談……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，跟委員……"],["王委員育敏：院長，你是不是可以回去開會仔細討論，然後給外界一個回應？這個專責單位不能是前任部長說要設，次長人在德國說要設，結果我現在在院會正式詢問的時候，院長回答不出來，也沒有說一定要設。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會等次長回來以後再聽聽看他得到一些什麼樣國際上的先進作為。不過我跟委員報告，現在這個階段，我們會從兒童、少年以及家庭支持有新的作為跟一個負責的單位來做，包括兒童的健康、兒童的預防、兒童的權益照顧，還有整個家庭支持……"],["王委員育敏：好，那是什麼樣的層級？"],["卓院長榮泰：在部會下面，先在部會下做這個事情，以後我們會跟次長來談談看，參考國外好的經驗，如果我們真的有能力，需要做到那個程度的話……"],["王委員育敏：直接跟院長報告，德國原本把衛生福利跟家庭部門放在一起，也是在它下面，現在分開了，就是獨立的一個部門，它不是在下面，就是一個專責單位，所以我希望院長可以好好思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。"],["王委員育敏：最後的時間我要問，也因應這個問題，我有看到行政院在動，10月27號全國的婚育宅開始開放申請，這是一個好的起點，但是我必須坦白講，這個戶數太少了……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛開始。"],["王委員育敏：然後設定12年，我無法理解，一個婚育家庭和他們的小孩，他們今天住進來這樣的一個婚育宅，孩子國小畢業之後就得搬家了，沒有辦法在這一個區域念完國中。你看看人家南韓是怎麼做的，他們都是20年，等孩子長大成人之後才會更換，為什麼我們設定的期限這麼的短呢？孩子念到國小就要搬家，你知道搬家對一個家庭來講，他的學區各方面通通都要做轉換，為什麼當時在思考政策的時候會設定這麼的短，而不是放大年限，至少讓他到國、高中畢業之後？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，這個政策剛開始當然數量上會比較少，我們會快速地來增加；另外，因為基本上它還是社宅的成分、還是社宅的性質，所以有一種轉換率的需求……"],["王委員育敏：我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果社宅達到我們的預定目標之後，這個年限當然是可以再放寬的，內政部都有相關的推演過程。"],["王委員育敏：我今天要表達的就是這個對於婚育家庭來講是不夠的，因為我去大學演講時，很多年輕朋友最焦慮的的確是住的問題，當我跟他們講南韓有這麼好的一個政策，鼓勵婚育家庭，他們聽了很羨慕，他們問的一個問題就是，委員，請問我們臺灣什麼時候要比照南韓，可以有這樣的婚育宅、可以讓我們真的想結婚的人擁有房子、可以在裡面安心地生小孩？這是我在第一線聽到年輕人最真實的聲音，他們羨慕得不得了。我希望「好想贏南韓」不是口號，而是真的在婚育宅的政策也可以超越他，有關這部分，我希望院長回去之後可以指示相關部門，現在台糖有那麼多的土地，其實還有很多的空間，我們現在有了這個起步，我肯定27號上路的婚育宅，但是我要告訴大家的是，這個數量真的遠遠不夠，現在年輕人面對住宅真的是他最大的一個問題，我希望這個部分在你們回去之後……"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在已經釋放出將近50萬戶了……"],["王委員育敏：好，內政部長也在這邊，請回去加強而且去盤點，我們需要更大的量，而且期效不能只是12年，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：現在已經盤點48萬戶以上，未來6年……"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘，第一階段，謝謝吳宗憲委員、羅智強委員、羅廷瑋委員一起陪同我們參與，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時37分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164469","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164469","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f3d0e2aa38946a3f2ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d219ddf0aee35279f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"09:49:59 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謝謝我們的林部長接下來我想就我們工地放嶺的政策來請教院長我們知道我們國家我們的工地放嶺政策自從1948年開始就有辦理這樣子的一個政策後來是因為921跟這個桃枝颱風"},{"start":338.935,"end":354.737,"text":"重創台灣所以基於國土保育以及國土保安及復育的政策所以這個工地放年政策從2008年就停辦了一直到現在可是我們也看到之前應該也是最近"},{"start":355.858,"end":384.981,"text":"應該是去年前年就是也有針對宜蘭縣的蘇澳鎮朝陽里的大蘭澳地區80公頃這個台拓地要重啟工地放寧的一個政策因為這個新聞都有報導所以我們地方的鄉親在我們彰化縣包括社同還有包括這個方苑地區很多就是在工地上耕作的農民事實上他們在這個地方也都耕作四五十年以上了所以他們也很"},{"start":385.561,"end":394.86,"text":"期盼說是不是也可以在就是說彰化縣也可以啟動這個工地放寧的一個政策是行政院在"},{"start":396.811,"end":422.77,"text":"認為這是一個歷史轉型正義跟土地正義的問題如果在不妨礙到國土的保安保育以及公共安全的情況底下在有條件滿足的情況底下我們願意來思考所以從大南澳的台拓地先行試辦那這個試辦的過程以及現在的執行情況內政部一直在掌握當中那如果這個試辦可以在滿足相關的條件之後我們是依照這個條件"},{"start":423.59,"end":442.385,"text":"或是在這個條件基礎上著與考慮其他的更多的方式加進來那這個會是後續接下來做的如果可以請部長來說明一下我可不可以補充說明一下謝謝陳委員的關心那院長有指示沒有錯在5月6號的時候已經有條件的放領國有的平地耕地"},{"start":443.205,"end":466.397,"text":"現在內政部去盤點包括山坡地放嶺跟平地耕地放嶺這兩件有關放嶺條件也就是說在山坡地範圍內的農牧用地以及平地耕地放嶺的農牧用地彰化縣政府確實有一些農民他是屬於這個範圍我們現在盤點出來在彰化的部分跟平地耕地放嶺"},{"start":467.517,"end":483.568,"text":"大概有331筆總共的面積是58.6公頃那山坡地的農牧用地大概是40筆總共是6公頃那未來立委所關心的這個部分如果在我們現在全部去整理出來在法令依據上面沒有問題的話"},{"start":484.649,"end":499.956,"text":"我們會優先來根據這個院長的指示來做這方面的辦理但是法令的依據要回顧過去三次裡面為什麼會停止辦理的狀況要需要再跟包括財政部或是國有財產署做最後的確認"},{"start":501.349,"end":522.867,"text":"我們知道工地當然有不同的類型有保安林地或者是林地或者是一般的農地在我的選區裡面社頭它本來是屬於保安林地後來它也劃出了已由國產署在管理所以希望再考慮到沒有國土保安及保育的問題"},{"start":523.707,"end":545.558,"text":"的這個限制之外我們可以考慮來啟動這個工地放零的政策報告陳委員我會補充一下有關山坡地範圍內的林業用地目前大概沒有包括在放零的範圍內那還有包括剛剛院長所指示的如果你牽涉到國土保安保育或者是公共安全的這些前提之下那"},{"start":546.218,"end":558.321,"text":"院裡頭大概不會贊成有這樣子的條件所以我們要把這三個條件全部滿足之後才能朝著未來法律依據許可的狀況之下繼續往前來執行跟推動"},{"start":559.349,"end":581.38,"text":"是 好 那當然就是我們政府在針對這個政策會有條件的一個考量那希望符合的區域就是方院的這個部分是應該是一般農地那希望就是說就符合條件的部分我們可以來儘快的一個啟動是好 謝謝部長謝謝那接下來我想請教就是有關經濟的一個議題那請我們劉部長請回"},{"start":586.527,"end":611.764,"text":"我想最近幾天這個股市的表現非常的耀眼在10月20號我們台股又創新高達到27688.63點那台積電的盤中股價高達1495元我們的外匯存底也破了6000億美元那在我們今年的人均GDP也超越了南韓應該達到應該有4萬美元"},{"start":612.847,"end":638.901,"text":"可是這些亮眼的數字我想可能也是我們中央政府對外在宣傳的時候非常引以自豪的可是我們要去思考說在這樣子的一個武士的一個亮眼的表現之外我們的台灣的經濟是真的就是真的是這麼好嗎我們要去好好的一個思考想先請教一下部長的看法"},{"start":639.811,"end":653.647,"text":"整體面來講還是非常好的趨勢當然有一些傳統性的產業它受到的事實上是不只對等關稅的影響主要的原因還是過去這幾年因為中國它低價傾銷"},{"start":655.489,"end":680.014,"text":"在國際市場上使得我們包括可能傳統性的產業包括機械業或者是像塑膠的製品可能會受到一些影響我們現在當然也極力的透過特別預算來支持他們編了大概460億元來全力這個錢絕大部分是用在傳統產業跟中小微的企業身上"},{"start":681.394,"end":700.883,"text":"事實上在關稅我們知道因為今天也有委員都關心到關稅的衝擊對美國關稅的影響真的對於傳統產業是雪上加霜因為在美國對等關稅之前事實上我們台灣的傳統產業就已經非常的艱困"},{"start":704.825,"end":732.526,"text":"而且對於我們國家的一個政策對於科技業跟傳統產業本來就有不同的一個措施所以導致好的越來越好傳統產業是越來越困難所以我們今天要講的就是說在股市的一個這樣子的一個創新高的狀況之下我們要去考量到很多傳統產業他們所面臨的一個困境應該要一同兼顧"},{"start":733.506,"end":750.985,"text":"這樣子才是真正的好我們事實上有兩個方式來支持我們的傳統產業第一個就是說因為我們要是跟中國拼價格大概是沒有辦法拼但是我們可以跟他拼品質還有我們的認證在特殊領域裡面這個是我們很厲害的"},{"start":752.247,"end":767.289,"text":"為什麼在轉型跟升級方面我們大概投入兩百多億會來做這樣的支持而且也成立著輔導團主動的要輔導這些傳統產業另外一個就是說我們都知道說這一次的電子業是受惠於AI的成長"},{"start":768.05,"end":788.191,"text":"我們現在要做的就是院長指示的要把這個AI的技術導入到百工百業讓這個百工百業都因為AI的發展而受惠他們也可以因為AI的發展而發展他們不管是升級也好或轉型也好或者受益這個也是我們要做的就是把這個普遍性把它做出來"},{"start":790.695,"end":803.509,"text":"我要講的是說其實在對等關稅之前傳統產業就非常的堅固因為主要就是說過去以來我們中央政府對於科技業這個獎勵投資跟研發的投資的一個獎勵"},{"start":805.29,"end":819.415,"text":"就是比這個傳統產業更加的優惠那對傳統產業來說雖然在應該2023年我們把那個門檻就是取消之後就是這個研發的一個底檢取消之後還有這個"},{"start":820.656,"end":839.809,"text":"設備投資的這個低減油把那個門檻稍微放寬之外可是對於整個傳統產業來說他們還是非常的一個困難所以我們是不是可以針對尤其在這個對等關稅的衝擊之後這個無薪假的一個狀況真的越來越多所以對於整個基層的"},{"start":840.249,"end":856.146,"text":"很多民眾真的也是非常的叫苦連天尤其又遇到很多的物價上漲的問題所以我們是不是就是說可以除了科技業它當然目前是一個非常好的狀況之外我們對於傳統產業我們是不是可以從"},{"start":859.928,"end":875.161,"text":"租稅優惠這個部分去考慮怎樣來鼓勵然後讓我們的這個中小企業能夠得到更多一個幫助雖然說我們在任性的這個特別預算裡面有這個就是有一些的補助包括就是貸款等等的"},{"start":875.521,"end":890.284,"text":"那我們是不是可以針對這個減稅的部分因為我在地方拜訪的時候很多傳統的產業他們是希望說能夠比照疫情期間給予一些減稅的一個優惠措施讓他們可以度過這樣子的一個衝擊跟難關是不是可以請部長"},{"start":891.309,"end":908.461,"text":"巴委員現在我們對於這些傳統產業的支持剛剛提到就是說事實上院長在特別預算裡面特別提到的就是說如果這個企業在研發的過程當中導入太舊換新的機器設備的話這個是我們有補助的最高可以補助到50%"},{"start":909.602,"end":929.016,"text":"而且他這個就是這個導入只要他智慧化的過程事實上是可以減稅的是可以補稅的跟委員報告總統總統在雙十的講話當中提到不只要有好數字要讓人民過好日子而且如果今天沒有受到"},{"start":947.244,"end":960.699,"text":"好 謝謝陳樹越委員質詢謝謝左院長各相關部會首長備詢 謝謝各位現在一場二樓旁聽了來自台北市李孝禮的朋友們我們掌聲歡迎各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（9時50分）謝謝院長，請院長邀請行政院卓院長及外交部林部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長及外交部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員素月：院長早、部長早安。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：首先，9月10號左右我們看到新聞報導尼泊爾發生暴動，事後就有新聞報導說我們的民眾致電外交部印度辦事處要求助，結果遭冷回。看到這樣子的新聞報導，我覺得對我們國家外交部的形象不是很好，不曉得部長對這個事件瞭不瞭解？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，所謂冷回，因為基本上我們在尼泊爾並沒有派駐代表處，而是轄管，所以在聯繫上，當然如果我們的同仁接到任何急難救助或者是需要協助的，我們都一再要求一定要立即辦理。因為尼泊爾當時暴動的情況很混亂，這個情形並不是一般常態的代表處就處理，不過我相信我們的同仁在第一線、第一時間應該都是很認真在處理。"],["陳委員素月：我們知道我們國家的外交處境真的非常艱難，雖然我們在很多地方沒有實際邦交，但也有辦事處，而且都行之有年，應該在地方也都會建立相關的人脈，所以在國人遇到急難的時候，我們應該要盡力給予協助。","本席最近又接獲一件民眾陳情，事實上，這個陳情是從去年就開始，這是一件國人被誘騙到中國，然後又被偷渡到緬甸的詐騙案，他被騙至緬甸之後，就是被騙到KK園區去，結果被限制行動自由、被關在那邊從事詐騙的行為。家屬得知他被騙至中國的時候，事實上當時就有求助了，我們也希望透過警政署及外交部能夠趕快攔截，把他營救回來，可是都沒有辦法使上力。經過一年的時間之後，他的家屬也是費盡千辛萬苦，透過各種關係也付了2萬美元的贖金，最近終於在園區附近把他媽媽救出來。因為目前他沒有任何身分資料，連護照都沒有，所以他也再次求助，可是我們外交部金邊辦事處外交人員的回復竟然是要他自行想辦法移動到金邊這裡來，然後我們的駐外單位才能夠給予協助。在我得知這樣的協助回復時，我覺得好像有回跟沒有回是一樣的，對於家屬毫無幫助。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我們已經營救大概上百位不管是自動的或是被脅迫到所謂KK園區等等，因為這個樣態很多，包括有三分之一左右是有前科，有一些是自動去的，有一些是被迫的，所以在每一個情形之下我們必須判定，而且我們在營救的過程，包括跟警政署，都有法務、警政秘書在我們的外館，所以不管是緬甸也好，或是泰國、柬埔寨也好，我相信我們都是很主動，但是在處理的時候，因為有些轄管權，而且有些涉及安全的問題。如果有個案，委員可以提供給我們，我們來檢討，看哪裡還可以再改進，但是也可能這個只是片面之詞，我們也是會加以瞭解。"],["陳委員素月：這一個就是個案，針對這個個案，我們也有比較詳細的資料，可是外交部還是沒有辦法給予實質上的援助。因為時間有限，我沒有辦法在這邊再跟部長做詳細的討論，我在這裡提出這個議題，是因為這個個案非常明確，家屬也想盡辦法把他的媽媽救離KK園區，我們希望外交部能夠在緬甸、柬埔寨尋求相關的民間資源，趕快把他的媽媽帶到安全的地方，協助他返國，謝謝林部長。"],["林部長佳龍：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：接下來我想就公地放領的政策請教院長。我們知道我們國家公地放領的政策是從1948年開始辦理，後來因為921及桃芝颱風重創臺灣，基於國土保安及復育，所以公地放領的政策從2008年就停辦了，一直到現在，可是我們也看到去年或前年，針對宜蘭蘇澳鎮朝陽里大南澳地區80公頃台拓地要重啟公地放領的政策，新聞都有報導。我們彰化縣地方的鄉親，包括社頭、芳苑地區在公地上耕作的農民事實上在這個地方都耕作四、五十年以上了，所以他們很期盼彰化縣是不是也可以啟動公地放領的政策？請院長答復。"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院認為這是一個歷史轉型正義及土地正義的問題，如果在不妨礙國土的保安、保育及公共安全的情況底下，在有條件滿足的情況底下，我們願意來思考，所以從大南澳的台拓地先行試辦，而這個試辦的過程及現在的執行情況，內政部一直在掌握當中。如果這個試辦可以，在滿足相關的條件之後，我們是依照這個條件或是在這個條件的基礎上，酌予考慮其他更多的方式加進來，這個會是後續接下來做的，如果可以，請部長說明一下。"],["陳委員素月：好，請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：我可不可以補充說明一下？謝謝陳委員的關心，院長有指示，沒有錯，在5月6號的時候已經有條件地放領國有的平地耕地，現在內政部去盤點包括山坡地放領及平地耕地放領這兩件。有關放領條件，也就是在山坡地範圍內的農牧用地及平地耕地放領的農牧用地，彰化縣確實有一些農民是屬於這個範圍。我們現在盤點出來，在彰化的部分，平地耕地放領的部分大概有331筆，總共的面積是58.6公頃；山坡地的農牧用地大概是40筆，總共是6公頃。未來立委所關心的部分，如果現在全部整理出來，在法令依據上面沒有問題的話，我們會優先根據院長的指示來做這方面的辦理，但是法令的依據要回顧過去3次裡面為什麼會停止辦理的狀況，需要再跟包括財政部或是國有財產署做最後的確認。"],["陳委員素月：我們知道公地當然有不同的類型，有保安林地、林地或者一般的農地，在我的選區裡面，社頭本來是屬於保安林地，後來也劃出了，移由國產署管理。所以希望在考慮到沒有國土保安及保育問題的限制之外，我們可以考慮啟動公地放領的政策。"],["劉部長世芳：報告陳委員，我可不可以補充一下？有關山坡地範圍內的林業用地，目前大概沒有包括在放領的範圍內，還有包括剛剛院長所指示的，如果牽涉到國土保安、保育或者是公共安全的前提之下，院裡頭大概不會贊成這樣的放領條件，所以我們要把這3個條件全部滿足之後，才能朝著未來法律依據許可的狀況之下，繼續往前執行及推動。"],["陳委員素月：好。當然，我們政府針對這個政策會有條件的考量，芳苑的部分應該是一般農地，希望就符合條件的部分可以儘快地啟動。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["陳委員素月：接下來我想請教有關經濟的議題，劉部長請回。我想最近幾天股市的表現非常耀眼，10月20號臺股又創新高，達到2萬7,688.63點，台積電的盤中股價高達1,495元；我們的外匯存底也破了6,000億美元；我們今年的人均GDP也超越了南韓，應該可以達到4萬美元，這些亮眼的數字可能也是我們中央政府對外宣傳時非常引以自豪的，但在股市這樣亮眼的表現之外，我們臺灣的經濟真的是這麼好嗎？這是我們要去好好思考的，對此，先請教一下部長的看法。"],["龔部長明鑫：整體面來講還是非常好的趨勢，當然有一些傳統性產業受到的事實上不只是對等關稅的影響，主要的原因還是過去這幾年，因為中國在國際市場上低價傾銷，包括我們的傳統性產業，包括機械業或者是橡塑膠的製品等等，可能會受到一些影響。我們現在當然也透過特別預算來極力支持他們，編了大概460億元，這個錢絕大部分都是用在傳統產業跟中小微型企業身上。"],["陳委員素月：今天也有委員關心到關稅的衝擊，就是美國對等關稅造成的影響，這對傳統產業真的是雪上加霜，但在美國對等關稅之前，事實上，我們臺灣的傳統產業就已經非常的艱困，而且在國家政策上，對於科技業跟傳統產業本來就有不同的措施，導致好的越來越好，而傳統產業則是越來越困難。所以我們今天要講的是，在股市創新高的狀況之下，我們要去考量到很多傳統產業所面臨的困境，應該要一同兼顧，這樣子才是真正的好。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我們事實上有兩個方式來支持我們的傳統產業，第一個，如果我們要跟中國拼價格，大概是沒有辦法拼，但是我們可以跟他拼品質還有認證，就是在特殊領域的方面，這是我們很厲害的，所以在轉型跟升級方面，我們大概投入了兩百多億會來做這樣的支持，而且也成立了輔導團，主動來輔導這些傳統產業。","另外一個，我們都知道，這一次電子業是受惠於AI的成長，我們現在要做的就是院長指示的，把AI的技術導入到百工百業，讓百工百業都因為AI的發展而受惠，他們也可以因為AI的發展而發展，不管是升級也好或者轉型也好，進而受益，這個也是我們要做的，就是把這個普遍性做出來。"],["陳委員素月：我要講的是，其實在對等關稅之前，傳統產業就非常的艱困，主要是過去以來，我們中央政府對於科技業的獎勵投資跟研發投資的獎勵就比傳統產業更加的優惠，對於傳統產業來說，雖然在2023年我們把研發抵減門檻取消，還有把設備投資抵減門檻稍微放寬，可是對於整個傳統產業來說，他們還是非常的困難，尤其是在受到對等關稅衝擊之後，無薪假的狀況真的是越來越多，基層很多民眾真的也是叫苦連天，尤其又遇到很多物價上漲的問題。因此，除了科技業目前處於一個非常好的狀況之外，對於傳統產業，我們是不是可以從租稅優惠這個部分去考慮怎樣來鼓勵他們，讓我們的中小企業能夠得到更多的幫助？雖然我們在韌性特別預算裡面有一些補助，包括貸款等等，那我們是不是可以針對減稅的部分，因為我在地方進行拜訪的時候，很多傳統產業向我表示，他們希望能夠比照疫情期間給予一些減稅的優惠措施，讓他們可以度過這樣的衝擊跟難關，對此，是不是可以請部長說明一下？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，關於我們現在對於這些傳統產業的支持，剛剛也有提到，事實上，院長對特別預算有特別提到，如果企業在研發的過程當中汰舊換新而導入新的機器設備，我們對這個是有補助的，最高可以補助到50%，而且這個導入只要是智慧化的過程，事實上是可以減稅、抵稅的。"],["陳委員素月：因為現在很多中小企業都拿不到訂單了。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以稅的優惠跟補助都有，還有貸款。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，總統在雙十講話當中提到不只要有好數字，要讓人民過好日子……"],["陳委員素月：對，要有感。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且如果沒有受到天候的影響，今天總統應該會跟中部的水五金業者見面，聆聽他們的需求，我們再做全面性的配合。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們是希望我們的執政團隊要實際的了解跟感受我們基層目前的狀況。"],["卓院長榮泰：會的，謝謝。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳素月委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓旁聽的是來自臺北市黎孝里的朋友們，我們掌聲歡迎各位。","另外，今天立法院非常熱鬧，包括來自美國德拉瓦州眾議院的議長、維吉尼亞州多數黨領袖，還有馬里蘭州、西維吉尼亞州的朋友，Welcome！Welcome to Taipei！","接下來我們請王育敏委員質詢，在王委員質詢之後，我們將會休息10分鐘，在10分鐘之後，請伍麗華委員準備質詢。","現在請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164468","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164468","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f6d59fb2e17274568ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d2d104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:17:48 - 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麻煩請卓榮泰院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢另外今天問到的相關議題部會首長該上來就請上來 謝謝"},{"start":32.455,"end":54.568,"text":"紅委員好 院長早 院長我們今天一年兩次的總諮詢特別跟您就教非常多的國家大事議題我們也希望台灣能夠更好 中華民國能夠更強所以在今年的10月10號國慶大典裡面看到賴總統跟我們國慶籌辦委員會的主席韓院長也都分別有做相關的支持"},{"start":55.228,"end":77.842,"text":"我們不希望報喜不報憂我們當然希望台灣越來越好所以韓院長其實在這個國慶大典講話的時候有講出影響台灣未來的三座隱形的映射壺不能台海有戰爭不能放任政黨無死線的惡鬥以及希望對美關稅談判順利院長你認同嗎"},{"start":79.353,"end":101.31,"text":"這個都是我們日常的工作也是 所以說您認同嗎韓院長這樣子講有沒有惡意韓院長以大會主席的身份在大會的現場所講的話就是我們在現場聽到大會主席整個籌備以及對大會的期許當然有對政府的期許都聽到了立法院院長是最高的民意殿堂的首長"},{"start":102.082,"end":125.471,"text":"而他代表2350萬人來對政府提出建言也希望中華民國生日許下三個願望往前走說實在話套一句現在網路流行的方向就是希望讓卓院長領導的團隊施政起來能夠匆匆忙忙游刃有餘嘛不要遇到問題的時候才匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬但一樣啊"},{"start":127.717,"end":145.056,"text":"在這一次講完之後綠營居然出征說唱衰還說家醜外揚院長是事實嗎你的主體叫綠營這個你要去借鏡他到底是哪一方來的所以你現在不認為你是綠營的一份子我們是中華民國行政院好"},{"start":145.802,"end":157.377,"text":"院長有這樣的一個行政中立就好因為本席認為這是什麼樣的威權心態如果說連善良的正向的正面的建言都不能提的話那國家不會進步"},{"start":159.281,"end":186.077,"text":"來 院長我們就繼續來討論三個議題第一 我們希望政黨不要無限的惡鬥所以很重要一個部分中央地方要一條心請教一下 輝達現在是一個國際大家都重視的高科技公司他選定 沒有錯台北市政府的兩塊地但實際上我們中央部會不管經濟部 不管商務部共同的來協助因為重點只有一個"},{"start":187.116,"end":198.176,"text":"就是讓輝達留在台灣不管留在哪個縣市留在台灣就是我們的主體院長現在有一些分分老老請教有沒有信心輝達一定留在台灣"},{"start":198.988,"end":228.671,"text":"第一個介紹法律問題我覺得這個法律問題不難解決所以大家要一起來解決嘛第二個是我們的經濟發展問題就是經濟發展 高科技的發展我們一定要把像輝達這種國際性大廠留在台灣這是我們共同的共識第三個在政治上如果台北市政府需要中央政府如何的協助我們已經協助有任何需要我們可以再跟台北市政府來合作如果說台北市留不住其他地方願意也可能留住的話我們也願意來促成"},{"start":228.931,"end":256.263,"text":"我們有看到現在也有提供松南跟林口兩塊地一個在台北一個在新北也剛好是本席的選區不過本席開宗明義就強調重點是留在台灣只要留在台灣不管是台北新北我們都雙手贊成樂觀其成所以我再強調一次院長有沒有信心協助台北市因為現在確實有紛紛擾擾啊而且看到的是現在某家企業他占住這個土地他感覺是在綁架全國人民啊"},{"start":256.926,"end":266.535,"text":"因為全國人民期待輝達要留在台灣所以說他就刻意要講是說想要繞過台北市政府要跟輝達直接談我們公有地可以這樣私相授受嗎"},{"start":267.967,"end":288.124,"text":"那屬於中央政府包括內政部該協助核定的一些地上權移轉的問題我們都已經核定了我剛剛說過如果還需要做一些工作讓留在台北中央需要做也合法可以做我們願意做如果台北市沒有辦法願意到其他各縣市我們也願意協助但這個要看這個輝達他本身在這裡設廠投資的"},{"start":289.005,"end":303.837,"text":"所以不能讓他離開嘛本席現在講的重點在於是說揮打有揮打的想法但是既然揮打已經開眾民意表達說他是要來台灣留在台北市不只是台北市有光台灣也有光 濁內閣團隊也有光"},{"start":306.54,"end":323.68,"text":"因為T17 18當然他們還在溝通協調但是輝達他還是要讓經濟部說如果17萬一啦我只問一句話啦主委員長有信心讓輝達留在台灣你會做到"},{"start":325.009,"end":353.4,"text":"百分之百使命必達我們是花最大的決心跟力道希望他留下來所以如果說真的揮打離開的話這就不是只有地方政府的責任中央地方共同承擔可以嗎但是台北市政府必須先把他的法律問題先處理好我覺得這個不難處理來中央地方共同解決再來第二個部分好的事情我們一起來追求我們上禮拜看到新加坡他研議"},{"start":354.605,"end":382.787,"text":"要讓詐騙犯罪使用鞭刑我們過去在這邊也有專案報告我們也討論詐騙討論非常多我們也一直強調是說詐騙惡可惡至極應該嚴刑峻法新加坡願意往前邁進這一步考慮這樣的一個事情那我知道因為現在台灣沒有鞭刑這樣的一個刑責那可是國人其實普遍對這個議題是非常有感的"},{"start":383.53,"end":396.109,"text":"那我現在具體的請教院長您怎麼看台灣有沒有資格有沒有權利或說有沒有方法能夠來研究別的國家已經在做的部分我們來思考怎麼樣來嚇阻詐騙不讓詐騙氾濫"},{"start":400.839,"end":428.562,"text":"這樣邊形的說法我相信在民間是有一些支持的聲音但是更有一些人權的討論我們一直從學校 校園都已經討論誰的人權犯罪者的人權是 是有一些討論犯罪者的人權你現在是要保護犯罪者的人權不是 我說民間有一些團體是在討論這個沒有錯吧我知道是有人支持的但是我們想的做法是我們如何從速審速決而且能夠合理的刑度來讓這些"},{"start":430.148,"end":453.466,"text":"犯罪者能夠受到社會的感化現在不是這樣做嗎現在不是就是速審速決讓犯罪者要感化但是一樣就是我們詐騙持續猖獗跟委員報告我現在先請教院長院長現在就是這樣所以我們今年度才會有專案報告新加坡今年我給院長一個數字新加坡今年上半年度被詐騙是107億台幣"},{"start":456.308,"end":475.266,"text":"反觀台灣今年上半年被詐騙的數字是480億台幣是新加坡的四倍之不多如果新加坡被詐騙只有台灣的四分之一都選擇考慮用這樣子嚴刑峻法來去嚇阻詐騙那台灣憑什麼我們沒有更積極的作為"},{"start":476.409,"end":502.375,"text":"跟委員報告這個事實上我們非常重視這一種的打詐的一個效用所以我們詐偽條例我們有研議在修更重的一個處罰部長你越講話會越失分啦我是希望院長能夠來正視這問題院長我直接我沒有說現在一定因為現在國情有不同討論有不同但是我具體提兩個建議您先聽聽看能做就說能做不能做就說不能做第一"},{"start":503.509,"end":521.807,"text":"請法務部研究把邊形納入台灣的中華民國憲法並且研究可行性討論相關執行的費用可能受罰的範圍以及利弊得失來做未來行政院跟立法院立法的參考"},{"start":523.736,"end":540.047,"text":"請外交部跟駐新加坡辦事處來跟新加坡政府了解他們現在已經在推動的邊形包含什麼樣的方向什麼樣的一個目的以及推行的成效可能面對的問題還有因應之道"},{"start":541.361,"end":557.709,"text":"綜合兩個地方判斷他三之十可以公錯我們可以請法務部來做可行性評估就如同所有的重大建設不是一下子馬上就編預算做執行啊而是我們先做可行性評估但可行性評估半年裡面提出來我們來針對這個議題共同來討論行不行委員剛剛說要"},{"start":563.976,"end":582.475,"text":"加入到憲法 那這個難度不大那這個是委員建議我們聽到了我想請法務部下巴先了解一下我們適不適合在這個時候做可行性評估 這個要先做所以我現在要做可行性評估的可行性評估時間暫停 那麼外交部長要不要備選"},{"start":586.127,"end":605.892,"text":"請外交部長好不好剛有提到外交部這是第一個另外就是現在在世界院長我確認一下詐騙已經猖獗那麼多每天有一億多兩億的詐騙現在國人生物痛絕然後你跟我講說你要做可行性評估的可行性評估我們在做其他的方面都有在做努力"},{"start":607.093,"end":626.828,"text":"就是现在其他方面都在努力但是诈骗还是那么猖獗所以我们才想请教说我们有没有更积极的做法我相信边形这个制度并不是现在世界上大多数国家所有的或许有一部分国家是有那我们是不是适合在这个时候来讨论边形不适合的理由是什么"},{"start":627.683,"end":641.043,"text":"社會上還有一些討論對立的意見如果說現在80% 90%的人看到都是認為說我們需要用更強硬的態度詐騙生物痛覺本席也認同在場吳宗憲委員也在啊"},{"start":641.923,"end":667.079,"text":"法律是對好人越好對壞人越壞我們就是要保護好人是就是保護好人所以嚴刑峻法並不是違反人權嚴刑峻法就是保護好人而且我們對犯罪者希望的是他經過一定的行動之後他不要再犯那是不是邊刑就會不要再犯邊刑完之後也可以不要再犯邊刑完之後讓他通知到說他更不要犯請法務部先去了解一下要不要做這個可行性兵覆"},{"start":668.58,"end":690.442,"text":"法務部還要了解要不要做這個可行性評估所以這就是可行性評估之前的可行性評估先了解一下民意現在到底對這樣的支持來研究這個制度目前民意的制度你不覺得你現在是在搪塞國人嗎也是在搪塞本席我們是很務實在做我們很希望是說了解外交部那外交部能不能做剛剛講的這部分"},{"start":691.727,"end":710.763,"text":"這不屬於外交部的主管業務請外交部跟新加坡政府了解一下說你們做的怎麼樣好不好有什麼樣的問題我們的總統院長講說用邊形可能會違反人權你們有沒有遇到這樣的困難這樣不行那外交部說不是他很責任"},{"start":712.957,"end":728.48,"text":"如果在這裡跟委員討論兩公約那是另外一個層次我討論的是我們民間對邊形我知道有人在討論有人是贊成支持的就是因為本席上禮拜看到我不是無敵放矢"},{"start":730.016,"end":749.378,"text":"本席是上禮拜看到新加坡已經要把納入詐騙變成邊形的一環我相信新加坡之前也做過很多討論跟功課也因此本席才會強調是說我們是不是透過外交管道來跟新加坡政府了解你們過去討論的狀況面臨到的問題以及你們怎麼說服國人"},{"start":750.623,"end":765.089,"text":"那另外我們內部自己研究可行性評估推動會遭遇到哪些困難大家普遍的問題以及我們要所用的費用還有如果說真的實施之後會不會怕做個民調吧"},{"start":766.174,"end":783.602,"text":"如果跟外交的管道我倒不如由法务部从检察官去做一些司法的协力那这个边形制度在新加坡实施之后他对在犯是不是完全的降低本席也建议我们的韩院长说是不是我们下一次的国会外交可以考虑前往新加坡"},{"start":784.082,"end":808.709,"text":"我們邀請三黨的委員也一起前往由韓院長帶團我們到新加坡也去針對他們的住宅問題他們的都市計畫以及司法打詐的部分我們來去做一個研究雙管齊下啊但你不能今天如果說你今天要這樣子跟我們講的話我沒有拒絕委員的意思所以半年內提出來台灣實施邊形來嚇阻打擊詐騙"},{"start":810.009,"end":828.762,"text":"甚至虐童案等部分讓這樣子的犯罪者得到應有的制裁可以吧請部長說這部分那委員寶貴的意見那我想這是一個聲音的確是那個行不行一句話半年因為我還有很多意見那我想說我們會廣大意見我們來研究它那個可行性的做一個評估"},{"start":829.369,"end":848.985,"text":"所以部長是承諾了他要做可行性評估要廣納意見當然我們是要廣納意見玩文字遊戲是不是沒有 這個是因為一個法案尤其這一則這個不是我們刑法規定的一個刑法的方式就是因為不是所以我們才要謹慎也因此我們才希望是說由行政部門這邊來做一個可行性評估"},{"start":851.607,"end":868.283,"text":"二次詐欺的一個猖獗我想我們很多的一個手段像我們那個詐偽條例我們現在也要再查一個修法我問你修法而且那個假設你越講就四分越多我們全部都在做了我不騙你你越講四分越多來院長"},{"start":869.375,"end":894.875,"text":"成功的人找方法 失敗的人找藉口要不要做我們找好的方法來做半年內提出邊形的可行性評估行不行我們就算要直接修法 也要廣聽各界的意見沒錯 因此我才會說我沒有現在立即就要去提案但是我希望是行政部門 外交部門 司法部門提出可行性評估一句話"},{"start":895.715,"end":924.62,"text":"剛剛部長講他會廣大意見來進行可信性評估的研議看能不能這個時候起一個什麼樣的程序才會進入到程序裡國人都看到了這就是我們行政院卓榮泰院長以及法務部外交部的態度再來院長因為問題比較多我們下一個議題其實討論就是韓院長也在國慶大典裡面都提到了就是希望台美的關稅談判越來越好我們都希望成功因為"},{"start":925.723,"end":943.844,"text":"經濟好 台灣好 台灣人民才會幸福但是我們先看到有一個新聞讓我們非常遺憾大學生繳不出學費輕生那一萬八的學費一萬八千塊台幣換算美金六百元不到"},{"start":944.994,"end":974.184,"text":"如果說我們一位20歲的學生因為繳不出600元美金的學費而選擇輕生的話我覺得這是大家都難過的事情這件事情凸顯什麼凸顯第一這個家庭他原本就是一個比較清喊的家庭第二學校的溝通聯繫沒有做好一萬八我相信一定還有很多管道有地方政府有中央政府的補助的部分那這樣子一個狀況"},{"start":975.646,"end":979.719,"text":"容許發生嗎可是確實已經發生了五天前院長"},{"start":981.084,"end":1007.138,"text":"要不要說一下對這件事情的態度覺得很遺憾跟惋惜一個年輕的生命就這樣失去了但是政府在這個方面有做到相當多的措施也許我們在宣導在學校的主動關懷如果說真的有做到相當多的措施的話就不會發生這樣的憾事因為至少我們還有學貸我們還有每年還有三萬五千元的私立學校的補助等等對親韓的我們還會加碼還會讓這樣的事情發生嗎所以可能在學校的主動關懷的還會讓這樣的事情發生嗎"},{"start":1010.02,"end":1024.812,"text":"那這個部分請教育部來部長你會後給我書面報告因為我還有另外的問題好不好會後給我另外的書面報告因為我要完整的了解教育部未來可以怎麼做我們也充電了全校在整個"},{"start":1025.592,"end":1054.707,"text":"部長我的時間有限會後給我另外書面報告因為我還有其他議題可以沒有問題我們事實上對這個事跟委員的心情是一樣的提出來是說經濟很重要 莫忘世上苦人多那一樣剛剛下一位蔡時昌委員也質詢到台美關稅而造成中小企業都非常的辛苦那我們看到副總統有講了承諾在美投資不只台積電還包括整個生態系"},{"start":1055.424,"end":1074.626,"text":"但昨天經濟委員會在開會的時候國發會主委居然一問三不知國發會主委居然講的是說事情不知情不管是台積電要去美國還是生態系要去美國那國人只想問一句話生態系到底包括多大範圍"},{"start":1077.066,"end":1089.018,"text":"所謂生態系當然是包括垂直供應鏈跟他的協力廠商都是整個生態系所以是全部都要過去所以全部都要過去我們承諾美國投資全部都要過去不然怎麼會我們的副總統會講是說我們上一張簡報"},{"start":1099.178,"end":1126.839,"text":"不只台積電 我們承諾在美投資還包括整個生態系上下游 資源服務 人才培育全部都過去不是過去啦 是力量的延伸啦在那邊 本來在台灣就會立足台灣那因為 就廠商而言你到海外去全球佈局的話一定第一個要有訂單嘛第二個要可以賺錢院長 我們現在都是看到浪利的狀況但是我們台灣的談判到底我們獲得了什麼"},{"start":1127.399,"end":1140.346,"text":"到目前為止還是持續沒有辦法看到那雙方談判已經到最後這個階段了什麼時間點談判會有一個技術性的問題有進行相當的磋商那最後要有一個總結會議總結會議預計會在什麼時候那總結會議之前還要做很多文書的交換總結會議預計會在什麼時候"},{"start":1147.769,"end":1168.87,"text":"這個我們期待是儘快的時間讓國內的產業能夠安定下來院長有沒有注意到另外一個國際上的新聞是現在有可能川習會預計在這個月底是川普跟習近平要見面美中兩大強權而川普在昨天晚上被問到說川習會的時候就已經有講到是說台灣議題會是討論之一"},{"start":1171.277,"end":1188.592,"text":"那如果說我們現在都還持續溝通討論會不會影響在十月底的所謂的川習會我們的最終談判到底是會在十月底還是我們可以撐過十月底還是我們現在是變成是哪一個人的籌碼院長美中兩國之間有這個千絲萬縷的關係跟談判的內容"},{"start":1190.774,"end":1216.63,"text":"那台灣跟美國同樣站在世界AI關鍵領先地位這個角色不論是台灣協助美國或是台灣一起跟美國一起再壯大起來我也相信川普總統即使跟習主席在見面的時候應該站在美國台灣跟世界共同利益的角度上你覺得川普總統見面的時候會把美國跟台灣綁在一起還有世界共同利益"},{"start":1217.403,"end":1234.981,"text":"這是你覺得你猜測你樂觀的想法還是你有什麼樣的情誌可以佐證你的說法我相信世界共同利益包括經濟的利益包括民主政治的利益包括地緣關係的利益有沒有具體在談判的過程裡面有討論到台灣如果說川普你要去跟習近平講"},{"start":1237.145,"end":1266.414,"text":"台灣的利益你要怎麼樣守護我們從歷屆這麼多時間以來多位美方的重要官員跟川普總統講話當中我們可以看到剛剛說的世界共同利益 經濟利益跟民主的利益都有在他們談話當中那我現在當然不能去界定美中兩國談判要談什麼內容但我相信如果提到台灣應該要站在世界共同利益那川普總統已經講了台灣議題會是討論的重點之一只是他不想跟記者宣布"},{"start":1266.934,"end":1293.27,"text":"那我們有沒有透過外交管道或是其他管道馬上去了解說那到底川普總統所謂的台灣議題會是什麼目前沒掌握所以你不能講我們有什麼管道沒有什麼管道嗎外交部長就在你旁邊啊你的管道不就是外交部長嗎報告委員不管跟AIT或跟我們駐美代表處都有很密切跟美國政府表示聯繫中院長"},{"start":1297.871,"end":1326.712,"text":"看起來這一題也是無解啦不過本席真的由衷的希望站在中華民國的立場好好的捍衛兩千三百五十萬人的權益是啊剛剛講過的世界的利益台灣美國共同的利益就是這個立場啊來兩位部長請回李陽部長麻煩您麻煩請運動部長再來討論本席先講喔剛剛蔡吉山委員有提到所謂的台灣棒球博物館這是本席在運動部組織發展法的時候討論"},{"start":1327.971,"end":1350.882,"text":"組織法的時候就已經正式提案成為但書運動部要成立就要籌備台灣運動博物館也獲得立院三讀通過所以部長這個不是一個選項這是一個必要之作推動的事情這我希望部長能夠了解不過部長我比較想要跟您探討了解的是足協的問題10月14號中華男竹"},{"start":1358.082,"end":1380.175,"text":"輸給了泰國1比6分數多少其實說實在話運動有輸有贏有輸過沒怕過但我們不能輸給的是自己人在這一次10月14號打完之後我們看到男足訓練是吃便當是在河濱公園球場來練習不是專業的場館"},{"start":1383.723,"end":1409.21,"text":"住泰國是住1000塊的快捷旅店沒有健身房說穿了那就是一個商務旅館只能睡覺沒有任何的訓練甚至回家想要泡個澡可能都沒有浴缸球員的球衣還沒有名字那這些都是過去累積下來的惡習本期有看到李洋部長講說嚴重警訊那我現在只想要請教部長"},{"start":1411.496,"end":1434.705,"text":"怎麼做來改革這是國人給你的期待各位30秒具體的講出你要怎麼改革主席關於協會的部分關於我們其實我身為運動員剛退役沒多久其實我們一直知道我們運動員的聲音很不容易會傳到協會所以我們已經針對運動員做了明年會有運動員委員會那我們希望運動員的聲音可以傳遞到運動員委員會會把各單項納入"},{"start":1437.446,"end":1465.402,"text":"各單項的協會都有運動員委員會那過往是用指定理事長指派那我們用選舉的方法我們作為讓運動員去選舉所以我可以理解就像是各單項都會有類似球員公會的概念運動員委員會嘛就是他是運動員會員推選出來變成一個理事長運動員會有運動員委員會他會有運動員自己推選出他自己運動員的但是各單項都有"},{"start":1466.567,"end":1494.787,"text":"所以棒球協會有棒球運動員委員會籃球協會有籃球運動員委員會足球協會有足球運動員委員會對那運作的方式資金他們半年會召開至少召開一次會議然後提供想法跟建議然後由我們運動部同時去了解到這樣本席記得這也是我們之前在教育文化委員會裡面正式立法通過但本席更希望的是"},{"start":1495.913,"end":1516.953,"text":"我們看到怎麼樣因為即便成立就像現在勞資雙方也會有很不對等的地方資方總是比較強勢勞方總是比較弱勢所以運動部站在運動天平的兩端就是要幫忙勞資雙方來取得一個平衡那我現在想問的是說除邪這樣子的一個長久下來的惡習甚至現在我們看到"},{"start":1517.493,"end":1531.795,"text":"在公眾政策平台裡面也有人提案落實全民參與督促逐協的財務其實很簡單啦財務先公開透明你資方就比較難有任何上下其手的地方"},{"start":1532.643,"end":1547.744,"text":"過去有發生什麼便當發票一次隨便報然後我們還是給他核銷那這樣子的一個狀況能不能改善委員報告我們目前會有兩年一次的財務查核那當然在協會的部分你講都是現況嘛"},{"start":1549.306,"end":1575.614,"text":"但就是因為現況下來長久累積還會有那麼多的問題所以我們才希望看到新人新氣象的部長改善那我們也希望用足協這個案例讓更多協會了解到全民都對運動協會這件事情非常在意那當然關於財務的部分我們希望說他們能夠做到公平公正公開聽起來是很好的說詞但是具體怎麼做部長"},{"start":1577.058,"end":1597.979,"text":"本席現在不是要讓你練口才跟演講比賽但你可不可以告訴本席以及關心運動的所有朋友你具體怎麼做當然在關於查核這部分我們有請我們競技師去做相關的做法那當然在協會這部分我們一定是作為我們最重要的任務之一"},{"start":1599.742,"end":1624.083,"text":"院長滿意剛剛部長的答詢嗎委員您跟我都不是運動選手所以我們對運動有高度的關心興趣是期許但李部長他自己是運動選手他最知道怎麼做他只要做出來給大家看我請求大家支持來部長我不為難你你會後提供本席相關你願意具體怎麼做的報告可以嗎"},{"start":1625.124,"end":1648.019,"text":"我只求一件事我希望我們的足球也好我們的運動也好每一個不一定我們馬上短期內可以中華隊打進世界盃我覺得那還是有點距離但是我們至少可以是讓我們的球迷大聲的呼喊大聲的支持讓我們的球隊在去比賽的時候可以很驕傲的"},{"start":1648.439,"end":1672.157,"text":"就像棒球迷就像羽球迷去為林陽沛加油的時候我們很驕傲的拿出我們的國旗我也希望我們的選手能夠很驕傲的站上戰場即便輸我們也是很驕傲的挺直中黨離開戰場這樣可以嗎公委員您報告那所有改革都需要時間那我們當然希望運動部今年成立我們希望說會最對協會的部分會做出改善"},{"start":1672.93,"end":1701.906,"text":"好謝謝部長來院長最後3分鐘本席再來討論地方議題淡江大橋你也來看過是明年5月12號會正式完工那通車大家都很期待但是隨著淡江大橋通車淡海科學城的發展才是重中之重來淡海科學城賴清德總統的政見那時候說新北123那淡海科學城現在"},{"start":1706.372,"end":1733.813,"text":"現在進度我們再了解一下淡海科學城目前的進度不在院裡面我沒有提供幕僚作業說我會問什麼問題你就沒有辦法回答我現在說手上沒有淡海科學城部長 院長淡海科學城內政部這跟交通部真的比較沒有直接關係所以其實交通部站起來然後內政部到現在還坐在那邊不動我也覺得很訝異麻煩請內政部長備選"},{"start":1735.405,"end":1754.118,"text":"國土署做淡海新市鎮二期的開發而其中國土署有發函給國發會有發函給經濟部要求國發會經濟部跟地方政府共同來討論我們怎麼樣來做淡海科學城這是賴清德總統兩年多前在競選總統時候的政見"},{"start":1757.395,"end":1769.075,"text":"就我現在好像講了之後跟中央部會沒有半點關係內政部不知道 經濟部不知道 國防會不知道請內政部來說明目前有沒有相關進度院長 如果說您是我你可以接受官員是這種態度嗎"},{"start":1770.589,"end":1794.999,"text":"我自己會先了解清楚我了解了就是我那麼了解結果你完全不清楚所以我才想要問你說如果你是我你可以接受官員這種態度嗎我現在手上真的沒有淡海科學的進度看內政部來說明那您覺得淡海科學層重不重要一定重要嘛如果我們在未來發展AI是不是過去就變成說其實過去沒有討論到科技均衡發展是均衡台灣重要的一環"},{"start":1796.049,"end":1821.343,"text":"院長我具體建議好不好您能不能因為科學層真的很重要我覺得內政部的態度或是說他的速度真的讓國人沒有那麼大的期待尤其明年淡江大橋五月就要通車了能不能只派一個政委來統合內政部經濟部國發會針對淡海科學層這也是賴清德總統的政見我們幫賴清德總統兌現支票可以嗎"},{"start":1822.063,"end":1846.389,"text":"因為內政部還沒有來說明過如果這個科學層的部分當然是國科會的政委內政部還沒有討論到這個案子那拜託我們不要讓淡水人覺得我們比較適合法委員我想您誤會了不是內政部沒有討論這個案子你當官院長就講說內政部沒有報告過嘛所以我說那能不能取一個政委針對相關比較經濟專長的政委我們來專案研究這個案子院長可以嗎"},{"start":1857.45,"end":1858.25,"text":"未來你找國科會主委我找哪一位國科會主委未來我就對著你國科會主委現在都給經濟部了"},{"start":1899.747,"end":1901.748,"text":"好 謝謝洪文凱委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":121,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時18分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請卓榮泰院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外，今天問到的相關議題部會首長，該上來就請上來，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長早。院長，我們今天是一年兩次的總質詢，特別跟您就教非常多的國家大事議題。"],["卓院長榮泰：感謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們也希望臺灣能夠更好，中華民國能夠更強，所以在今年的10月10號國慶大典裡面，看到賴總統跟我們國慶籌辦委員會的主席韓院長，也都分別有做相關的致詞。我們不希望報喜不報憂，我們當然希望臺灣越來越好，所以韓院長其實在國慶大典講話的時候，有講出影響臺灣未來的三座隱形堰塞湖，不能臺海有戰爭、不能放任政黨無止境的惡鬥以及希望對美關稅談判順利，院長你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個都是我們日常的工作。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以說您認同嗎？韓院長這樣子講有沒有惡意？"],["卓院長榮泰：韓院長以大會主席的身分，在大會的現場所講的話，就是我們在現場聽到大會主席整個籌備以及對大會的期許，當然有對政府的期許，都聽到了。"],["洪委員孟楷：立法院院長是最高民意殿堂的首長，而他代表2,350萬人來對政府提出建言，也希望中華民國生日許下3個願望往前走。說實在話，套一句現在網路流行的方向，就是希望讓卓院長領導的團隊施政起來，能夠從從容容，游刃有餘，不要遇到問題的時候才匆匆忙忙，連滾帶爬。但一樣，在這一次講完之後綠營居然出征說是唱衰還說是家醜外揚。院長，是事實嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：您的主體叫「綠營」，這個……你要界定它到底是哪一方來的訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在您不認為自己是「綠營」的一分子？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是中華民國行政院。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，院長，有這樣的行政中立就好，因為本席認為，這是什麼樣的威權心態啊？如果連善良、正向、正面的建言都不能提的話，那國家不會進步。院長，我們就繼續討論三個議題：第一，我們希望政黨不要無限地惡鬥，所以很重要的一個部分是，中央、地方要一條心。請教一下，輝達現在是國際大家都重視的高科技公司，沒錯，它選定了臺北市政府的兩塊地，但實際上中央部會，不管是經濟部還是相關部會都要共同來協助，因為重點只有一個，就是讓輝達留在臺灣。不管是留在哪個縣市，留在臺灣就是我們的主體。院長，現在有一些紛紛擾擾，請教有沒有信心讓輝達一定留在臺灣？"],["卓院長榮泰：它第一個是會涉牽到法律問題，我覺得這個法律問題不難解決……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以大家要一起來解決嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：第二個是我們的經濟發展問題，就是經濟發展、高科技的發展一定要把像輝達這種國際性大廠留在臺灣，這是我們共同的共識。第三個，在政治上如果臺北市政府需要中央政府如何協助，我們已經協助，有何任需要可以再跟臺北市政府合作。如果臺北市留不住，其他地方願意也可能留住的話，我們也願意促成。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們看到現在也有提供松南跟林口兩塊地，一個在臺北、一個在新北，也剛好是本席的選區，不過本席開宗明義就強調，重點是「留在臺灣」。只要是留在臺灣，不管是臺北還是新北我們都雙手贊成、樂觀其成。所以我再強調一次，院長，有沒有信心協助臺北市？因為現在確實是紛紛擾擾啊！而且可以看到的是，現在某家企業占住這個土地，卻讓人感覺是在綁架全國人民，因為全國人民期待輝達要留在臺灣，所以它就刻意想要繞過臺北市政府，要跟輝達直接談。我們公有地可以這樣私相授受嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：屬於中央政府，包括內政部該協助核定的一些地上權移轉問題，我們都已經核定了。我剛剛說過，如果還需要做一些工作，讓輝達留在臺北，中央須要做也合法可做，我們就願意做；如果臺北市沒有辦法，它願意到其他各縣市，我們也願意協助，但這個就要看輝達本身在這裡設廠投資的意願。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不能讓它離開嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對不能讓它離開。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在講的重點在於，輝達有輝達的想法，但是既然輝達已經開宗明義表達要來臺灣。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：留在臺北市，不只是臺北市有光，臺灣也有光，卓內閣團隊也有光。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為T17、T18他們還在溝通、協調，但輝達還是要讓經濟部說，萬一T17、T18如果不行……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只問一句話。"],["龔部長明鑫：還有其他的嘛！就表示它有那樣的意願留在臺灣。"],["洪委員孟楷：卓院長，有沒有信心讓輝達留在臺灣？"],["龔部長明鑫：我有信心啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：你會做到？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：百分之百、使命必達？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是花最大的決心跟力道希望它留下來。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以如果說真的，輝達離開的話，這就不是只有地方政府的責任了，中央、地方要共同承擔，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是臺北市政府必須先把它的法律問題先處理好，我覺得這不難處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好、非常好，中央、地方共同解決。再來第二個部分，好的事情我們一起來追求，我們上禮拜看到新加坡研議要讓詐騙犯罪使用鞭刑。過去在這邊也有專案報告在討論詐騙，而且討論了非常多，我們也一直強調，詐騙可惡至極，應予嚴刑峻法，所以新加坡願意往前邁進這一步去考慮這樣的事情。","我知道臺灣現在沒有鞭刑這樣的刑責，可是國人普遍對這個議題其實是非常有感的。我現在就具體地請教院長，您怎麼看？臺灣有沒有資格、有沒有權力或是有沒有方法能夠研究別的國家已經在做的部分，我們來思考怎麼樣嚇阻詐騙，不讓詐騙泛濫？"],["卓院長榮泰：鞭刑的說法相信在民間是有一些支持的聲音，但更有一些對人權的討論。我們從學校的校園都已經……"],["洪委員孟楷：是討論誰的人權？犯罪者的人權？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，是有一些討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在是要保護犯罪者的人權？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我是說民間有一些團體在討論，這個沒有錯吧？我知道是有人支持的，但是我們想的作法是我們如何從速審速決以及合理的刑度來讓這些犯罪者能夠受到社會的感化和教化……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，現在不是這樣做嗎？現在不是就是速審速決，讓犯罪者受到感化，但是一樣，我們就是詐騙持續猖獗啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在先請教院長，院長，現在就是這樣，所以我們今年度才會有專案報告……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，但我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：我給院長一個數字，新加坡今年上半年度被詐騙是107億臺幣，反觀臺灣，今年上半年被詐騙的數字是480億臺幣，是新加坡的四倍之多，如果被詐騙只有臺灣的四分之一的新加坡都考慮選擇用這樣子的嚴刑峻法來去嚇阻詐騙，我們臺灣憑什麼沒有更積極的作為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上，我們非常重視打詐的效益，所以我們有研議詐危條例再修更重的處罰，像高額詐欺……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你越講話會越失分，我是希望院長能夠來正視這個問題。院長，我沒有說現在一定要這樣做，因為現在國情有不同、討論有不同，但是我具體提兩個建議，您先聽聽看，能做就說能做，不能做就說不能做。","第一、請法務部研究把鞭刑納入臺灣的中華民國憲法，並且研究可行性，討論相關執行的費用、可能受罰的範圍以及利弊得失，來做未來行政院跟立法院立法的參考。第二、請外交部駐新加坡辦事處跟新加坡政府了解他們現在已經在推動的鞭刑包含什麼樣的方向、什麼樣的目的，以及推行的成效、可能面對的問題還有因應之道。綜合兩個地方判斷，他山之石，可以攻錯，我們可以請法務部來做可行性評估，就如同所有的重大建設不是一下子馬上就編預算做執行，而是我們先做可行性評估，但可行性評估半年裡面提出來，我們針對這個議題共同來討論，行不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛說要加入到憲法，這個難度……"],["洪委員孟楷：刑法，中華民國刑法。"],["卓院長榮泰：加入刑法。這個是委員建議，我們聽到了，我想請法務部先了解一下我們適不適合在這個時候做可行性評估，這個要先做，做下去……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們現在要做可行性評估的可行性評估？院長，是這樣……"],["主席：時間暫停，外交部長要不要備詢？請外交部長，好不好？因為提到……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，剛剛有提到外交部。"],["主席：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是第一個。另外，就是現在在世界……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我確認一下，詐騙已經那麼猖獗，每天有一億多、兩億的詐騙，現在國人深惡痛絕！然後你跟我講，你要做可行性評估的可行性評估……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在其他的方面都有在做努力，包含刑度的提高……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是現在其他方面都有在努力，但是詐騙還是那麼猖獗，所以我們才想請教有沒有更積極的作法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信鞭刑這個制度並不是現在世界上大多數國家所有的，或許有一部分國家是有，那我們是不是適合在這個時候來討論鞭刑，請法務部……"],["洪委員孟楷：不適合的理由是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為社會上還有一些討論，對立的意見是有的……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果現在80%、90%的人看到，都是認為我們需要用更強硬的態度，對詐騙深惡痛絕，本席也認同，吳宗憲委員也在場，法律是對好人越好、對壞人越壞……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是要保護好人。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，就是保護好人，所以嚴刑峻法並不是違反人權，嚴刑峻法就是保護好人……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且我們對於犯罪者是希望他經過一定的刑度之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼不能做？"],["卓院長榮泰：他不要再犯，那是不是鞭刑就會不要再犯，這個可以考慮。"],["洪委員孟楷：鞭刑完之後也可以不要再犯，鞭刑完之後，讓他痛、知道更不要犯。"],["卓院長榮泰：我說可以請法務部先去了解要不要做這個可行性評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：法務部還要了解要不要做這個可行性評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：社會的共識要有。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這就是可行性評估之前的可行性評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：先了解一下民意現在到底如何，對於研究這個制度，目前民意的支持度……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你不覺得你現在是在搪塞國人嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是、不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：也是在搪塞本席……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是很務實在做這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們很希望要去了解。那外交部能不能做剛剛講的這個部分？"],["林部長佳龍：這不屬於外交部的主管業務，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：不屬於，請外交部跟新加坡政府了解一下他們做得怎麼樣、好不好、有什麼樣的問題，我們的卓榮泰院長講用鞭刑可能會違反人權，他們有沒有遇到這樣的困難。這樣不行？然後外交部說不是他的責任……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果在這裡跟委員討論兩公約，那是另外一個層次……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，又來兩公約……"],["卓院長榮泰：那是另外一個層次，我討論的是我們民間對鞭刑這個制度的支持度，我知道有人在討論，有人是贊成、支持的，但是我也不能忽略那些有意見的人。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為本席上禮拜看到，我不是無的放矢。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都看到了。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席是上禮拜看到新加坡已經要將詐騙納入鞭刑的一環，我相信新加坡之前也做過很多討論跟功課，也因此本席才會強調，我們是不是透過外交管道來跟新加坡政府了解他們過去討論的狀況、面臨到的問題，以及他們怎麼說服國人。另外，我們內部自己研究、做可行性評估，推動會遭遇到哪些困難、大家普遍的問題以及我們所需的費用，還有如果真的實施之後會不會怕，做個民調嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是外交的管道，倒不如由法務部從檢察官去做一些司法的協力，這個鞭刑制度在新加坡實施之後，對於再犯是不是完全降低……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：或是說如果有這些比較好……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也建議我們的韓院長說，是不是我們下一次的國會外交可以考慮前往新加坡，我們邀請三黨的委員也一起前往，由韓院長帶團到新加坡，針對他們的住宅問題、都市計畫以及司法打詐的部分，我們來去做一個研究，雙管齊下，但你不能今天……","如果你今天要這樣子跟我們講話，我覺得你就是在找藉口。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有拒絕委員的意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以半年內提出來臺灣實施鞭刑來嚇阻、打擊詐騙，甚至虐童案等部分，讓這樣子的犯罪者得到應有的制裁，可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分委員寶貴的意見，我想這是一個聲音，的確適不適用……"],["洪委員孟楷：半年行不行？一句話，因為我還有很多議題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會廣納意見，我們來研究它的可行性，並做一個評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以部長是承諾了，他要做可行性評估。"],["卓院長榮泰：要廣納意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然我們是要廣納意見，這個一定要……"],["洪委員孟楷：玩文字遊戲是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，因為一個法案，尤其這個不是我們刑法規定的一種方式……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為不是，所以我們才要謹慎，也因此我們才希望由行政部門來做一個可行性評估。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對於遏止詐欺的猖獗，我想我們有很多手段，像我們的詐危條例，我們現在也要再修法……"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，我問你東，你扯西，你越講就失分越多。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且假釋求重刑，這部分我們全部都在做了。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我不騙你，你越講失分越多。","院長，成功的人找方法，失敗的人找藉口。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們找方法。"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要做？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們找好的方法來做。"],["洪委員孟楷：半年內提出鞭刑的可行性評估，行不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們就算要直接修法，也要廣……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在沒有說要直接修法。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我說我們就算要直接修法，也要廣聽各界的意見，現在就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，因此我才會說我沒有現在立即就要去提案，但是我希望行政部門、外交部門、司法部門提出可行性評估，一句話，行不行？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長也講了，他會廣納意見來進行可行性評估的研議，看能不能在這個時候啟動一個什麼樣的程序，才會進入到程序裡，這個會來研究。"],["洪委員孟楷：國人都會看到這就是我們行政院卓榮泰院長以及法務部、外交部的態度。","再來，院長，因為問題比較多，我們下一個議題要討論的其實韓院長也在國慶大典裡面都提到了，就是希望臺美的關稅談判越來越好，我們都希望成功，因為經濟好、臺灣好，臺灣人民才會幸福。但是我們看到一個新聞讓我們非常遺憾，大學學生繳不出學費輕生，一萬八的學費，1萬8,000塊臺幣換算美金600元不到，如果說我們一位20歲的學生因為繳不出600元美金的學費而選擇輕生的話，我覺得這是大家都難過的事情。這件事情凸顯什麼？第一，這個家庭原本就是一個比較清寒的家庭；第二，學校的溝通聯繫沒有做好，一萬八，我相信一定還有很多管道，有地方政府、有中央政府的補助，這樣的一個狀況容許發生嗎？可是五天前確實已經發生了，院長，要不要說一下對這件事情的態度？"],["卓院長榮泰：覺得很遺憾跟惋惜，一個年輕的生命就這樣失去了，但是政府在這個方面有做到相當多的措施，也許我們在宣導、在學校的主動關懷都不夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說真的有做到相當多措施的話，就不會發生這樣的憾事。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為至少我們還有學貸，我們每年還有3萬5,000元私立學校的補助等等，對清寒的我們還會加碼……"],["洪委員孟楷：還會讓這樣的事情發生嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以可能在學校的主動關懷或心理輔導不夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：還會讓這樣的事情發生嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分請教育部來說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你會後給我書面報告，因為我還有另外的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們當然不希望看到這種事情發生……"],["洪委員孟楷：會後給我另外的書面報告，因為我要完整的了解教育部未來可以怎麼做。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們也通令了全校各個處室……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我的時間有限，會後再給我另外的書面報告，因為我還有其他議題。"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：對於這件事情，事實上我們跟委員的心情是一樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，你剛剛提出來經濟很重要，莫忘世上苦人多。一樣，剛剛上一位蔡其昌委員也質詢到，臺美關稅造成中小企業都非常的辛苦，我們看到副總統有講了，承諾在美投資，不只台積電，還包括整個生態系。但昨天經濟委員會在開會的時候，國發會主委居然一問三不知，國發會主委居然說：事前不知情，不管是台積電要去美國，還是生態系要去美國。院長，國人只想問一句話，生態系到底包括多大的範圍？"],["卓院長榮泰：所謂生態系當然是包括垂直供應鏈跟他的協力廠商，都是整個生態系。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是全部都要過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：甚至於包括他的客戶。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以全部都要過去？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["龔部長明鑫：我們主要的客戶本來就在美國。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們承諾美國投資全部都要過去？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有。"],["龔部長明鑫：不是過去。"],["洪委員孟楷：不然我們副總統怎麼會說，我們承諾在美投資，不只台積電，還包括整個生態系。上下游、資源服務、人才培育，全部都過去？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是過去，是力量的延伸，本來在臺灣就會立足臺灣，因為就廠商而言，到海外去全球布局的話，一定第一個要有訂單，第二個要可以賺錢，要賺錢的話，它的供應鏈一定要……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我們現在都是看到讓利的狀況，但是臺灣在談判中到底獲得了什麼？到目前為止還是持續沒有辦法看到。"],["卓院長榮泰：雙方談判已經到最後的階段了。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時間點談判會有一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：技術性的問題有進行相當的磋商，最後要有一個總結會議，才會到達最後的協議……"],["洪委員孟楷：總結會議預計會在什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：總結會議之前，還要做很多文書的交換等等。"],["洪委員孟楷：總結會議預計會在什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們期待是儘快的時間，讓國內的產業能夠安定下來。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長有沒有注意到另外一個國際上的新聞，川習會預計在這個月月底舉行，川普跟習近平要見面，美、中兩大強權，而川普在昨天晚上被問到川習會的時候，就已經有講到臺灣議題會是討論之一。如果我們現在都還持續溝通、討論，會不會影響在10月底的川習會？我們的最終談判到底是會在10月底，還是我們可以撐過10月底，還是我們現在變成是哪一個人的籌碼？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：美中兩國之間有千絲萬縷的關係跟談判的內容，臺灣跟美國同樣站在世界AI關鍵領先地位的角色，不論是臺灣協助美國，或者是臺灣跟美國一起再壯大起來，我希望、我也相信，川普總統即使跟習主席見面的時候，應該也會站在美國、臺灣跟世界共同利益的角度上去做……"],["洪委員孟楷：你覺得川普總統見面的時候，會把美國跟臺灣綁在一起？"],["卓院長榮泰：還有世界共同利益。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是你覺得、你猜測、你樂觀的想法，還是你有什麼樣的情資可以佐證你的說法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信世界共同利益，包括經濟的利益、包括民主政治的利益、包括地緣關係的利益。"],["洪委員孟楷：在談判的過程裡面有沒有討論到具體的內容，如果川普要去跟習近平講，對於臺灣的利益，你要怎麼樣守護？"],["卓院長榮泰：這麼多時間以來，我們從多位美方的重要官員跟川普總統講話當中，我們可以看到剛剛說的世界共同利益、經濟利益跟民主的利益……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只請教有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：都有在他們談話當中，我現在當然不能去界定美中兩國談判要談什麼內容，但我相信如果提到臺灣，應該要站在世界共同利益。"],["洪委員孟楷：川普總統已經講了，臺灣議題會是討論的重點之一，只是他不想跟記者宣布，我們有沒有透過外交管道或是其他管道馬上去了解，到底川普總統所謂的臺灣議題會是什麼？目前沒掌握？"],["卓院長榮泰：我這裡不能講我們有什麼管道、沒有什麼管道。"],["洪委員孟楷：外交部長就在你旁邊啊！你的管道不就是外交部長嗎？不然還有什麼管道？"],["林部長佳龍：報告委員，不管是跟AIT或是我們駐美代表處，我們都有很密切的跟美國政府保持聯繫中。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，看起來這一題也是無解，不過本席真的由衷的希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我沒有講出你希望的答案來。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以站在中華民國的立場，好好的捍衛2,350萬人的權益！"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊，剛剛講過的世界的利益、臺灣和美國共同的利益，就是這個立場。"],["洪委員孟楷：兩位部長請回。李洋部長，麻煩你。"],["主席：麻煩請運動部長備詢。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們再來討論，本席先講，剛剛蔡其昌委員有提到所謂的臺灣棒球博物館，這是本席在討論運動部組織法的時候，就已經正式提案成為但書，運動部要成立就要籌備臺灣運動博物館，也獲得立院三讀通過，所以這不是一個選項，而是一個必要推動的事情，我希望部長能夠了解。","不過我比較想要跟您探討、了解的是足協的問題，10月14號中華男足輸給了泰國，1比6，分數多少，說實在話，運動有輸有贏，有輸過、沒怕過，但我們不能輸給的是自己人。這一次在10月14號打完之後，我們看到男足訓練是吃便當，在河濱公園球場練習，不是專業的場館。在泰國是住1,000塊的快捷旅店，沒有健身房，說穿了，那就是一個商務旅館，只能睡覺，沒有任何的訓練，甚至回家想要泡個澡，可能都沒有浴缸。球員的球衣還沒有名字，這些都是過去累積下來的惡習。本席有看到李洋部長說這是嚴重警訊，我現在只想要請教部長怎麼來改革？這是國人給你的期待，可不可以30秒具體的講出你要怎麼改革足協？"],["李部長洋：關於協會的部分，我身為運動員剛退役沒多久，其實我們一直知道運動員的聲音很不容易傳到協會，所以我們已經針對運動員明年會有運動員委員會，希望運動員的聲音可以傳遞到這裡。"],["洪委員孟楷：運動員委員會會把各單項納入，還是特定的項目？"],["李部長洋：各單項協會都有運動員委員會，過往是用指定、理事長指派，我們用選舉的方法，讓運動員去選舉……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們可以理解，就像是各單項都會有類似球員工會的概念？運動員委員會就是由運動員會員推選出來，變成一個理事長？"],["李部長洋：運動員會有運動員委員會，會由運動員自己推選出自己運動員的……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是各單項都有？"],["李部長洋：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以棒球協會有棒球運動員委員會；籃球協會有籃球運動員委員會；足球協會有足球運動員委員會？"],["李部長洋：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：運作的方式、資金……"],["李部長洋：他們半年會至少召開一次會議提供想法跟建議，同時由運動部去了解這樣的訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席記得這也是我們之前在教育及文化委員會裡面正式立法通過的，但本席更希望的是我們看到怎麼樣……因為即便成立，就像現在勞資雙方也會有很不對等的地方，資方總是比較強勢，勞方總是比較弱勢，所以運動部站在運動天平的兩端，就是要幫忙勞資雙方來取得一個平衡。我現在想問的是足協這樣長久下來的惡習，甚至現在我們看到在公共政策平臺裡面也有人提案，應落實全民參與，督促足協財務。其實很簡單，財務先公開透明，資方就比較難有任何上下其手的地方，過去有發生便當發票一次隨便報，然後你們還是給他核銷，這樣的狀況能不能改善？"],["李部長洋：我們目前在協會的部分會有兩年一次的財務查核……"],["洪委員孟楷：你講的都是現況，但現況就是因為長久累積下來才會有那麼多的問題……"],["李部長洋：我們也希望用……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們才希望看到新人新氣象的部長來改善。"],["李部長洋：我們也希望用足協這個案例讓更多協會了解到，全民都對運動協會這件事情非常在意。當然，關於財務的部分，我們希望他們能夠做到公平、公正、公開。"],["洪委員孟楷：聽起來是很好的說詞，但是具體怎麼做？"],["李部長洋：當然……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席現在不是要讓你練口才跟演講比賽，但你可不可以告訴本席以及所有關心運動的朋友，你具體要怎麼做？"],["李部長洋：當然在關於查核這部分，我們有請我們的競技司研擬相關的作法。至於協會，這一定是我們最重要的任務之一。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長滿意剛剛部長的答詢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您跟我都不是運動選手，雖然我們對運動有高度的關心、興趣，甚至期許，但李部長自己是運動選手，他最知道怎麼做，他只要做出來給大家看，我請求大家支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我不為難你，你會後提供本席你願意具體怎麼做的報告，可以嗎？我只求一件事，我希望我們的足球也好、我們的運動也好，不一定我們每一個中華隊馬上在短期內可以打進世界盃，我覺得那還是有點距離，但是我們至少可以讓我們的球迷大聲的呼喊、大聲的支持，讓我們的球隊在去比賽的時候，可以很驕傲的，就像棒球迷、就像羽球迷去為麟洋配加油的時候，我們很驕傲的拿出我們的國旗，我也希望我們的選手能夠很驕傲的站上戰場，即便輸，我們也是很驕傲的挺直胸膛離開戰場，這樣可以嗎？"],["李部長洋：跟委員報告，所有改革都需要時間，運動部今年成立，我們會希望對協會的部分做出改善。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。","院長，最後3分鐘，本席再來討論地方議題，淡江大橋你也來看過。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：明年5月12號會正式完工，大家都很期待通車，但是隨著淡江大橋通車，淡海科學城的發展才是重中之重，淡海科學城！賴清德總統的政見那時候說「新北一二三」，淡海科學城現在的進度？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們再了解一下淡海科學城目前的進度，不在院裡面……"],["洪委員孟楷：我沒有提供幕僚說我會問什麼問題，你就沒有辦法回答？"],["卓院長榮泰：真的不在……我現在手上沒有淡海科學城的資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，淡海科學城，這跟交通部真的比較沒有直接關係，所以其實交通部站起來，然後內政部到現在還坐在那邊不動，我也覺得很訝異。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部長備詢。"],["洪委員孟楷：國土署做淡海新市鎮二期的開發，而其中國土署有發函給國發會、有發函給經濟部，要求國發會、經濟部跟地方政府共同來討論怎麼樣來做淡海科學城，這是賴清德總統兩年多前在競選總統時的政見，結果我現在好像講了之後，跟中央部會沒有半點關係，內政部不知道、經濟部不知道、國發會不知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：請內政部來說明目前有沒有相關進度。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，如果您是我，你可以接受官員是這種態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我自己會先了解清楚。"],["洪委員孟楷：我了解了，就是說我那麼了解，結果你完全不清楚，所以我才想要問你說，如果你是我，你可以接受官員這種態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在手上真的沒有淡海科學城的進度，讓內政部來說明。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：那您覺得淡海科學城重不重要？一定重要嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們在未來發展AI……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是就變成其實過去沒有討論到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望科技均衡發展是均衡臺灣重要的一環。"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，我具體建議好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為科學城真的很重要，我覺得內政部的態度或是它的速度真的讓國人沒有那麼大的期待。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您誤會了，有關於科學園區的建構，其實是跟國科會一起努力的。"],["洪委員孟楷：尤其明年淡江大橋5月就要通車了，能不能指派一個政委來統合內政部、經濟部、國發會，針對淡海科學城，這也是賴清德總統的政見，我們幫賴清德總統兌現支票，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為內政部還沒有來說明過，如果這個科學城的部分當然是國科會的政委要來處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以賴清德上任兩年了，內政部還沒有討論到這個案子？拜託我們不要讓淡水人覺得自己比較「細漢」。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您誤會了，不是內政部沒有討論這個案子，是有關於總統跟院長上臺之後，對於AI的發展在淡海非常重要，需要國科會一起來合作。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，剛剛院長就講說內政部沒有報告過嘛！所以我現在說能不能請一個政委比較有經濟專長的政委，我們來專案研究這個案子，院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，內政部一定有討論，但不是每個案子一開始的討論或過程我完全都了解，這個要抱歉，如果是科學城，國科會一定也有相關的資料在這裡，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，未來可以找國科會主委還是要找劉部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：我找哪一位？"],["卓院長榮泰：國科會。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，國科會主委，未來我就對著你……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個案子，是經濟部……"],["洪委員孟楷：你看，國科會主委現在又推給經濟部。"],["卓院長榮泰：他是政委，他要統合啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：那統合啊！他現在就在你面前，他就推給經濟部。"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！他說要找經濟部，但是要統合嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：院長，讓國人接受建設，我們一起努力，不是只有新北市好，新北好，中華民國就會好，卓內閣團隊就會好。"],["卓院長榮泰：大家一起好！好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我找政委，可以吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，他是政委，他會統合，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員質詢，謝謝卓院長相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽是來自臺北市北投區社區大學的同學們，我們掌聲歡迎大家。","接下來請陳素月委員質詢，王育敏委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}},{"id":"164467","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164467","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ad817af50721993f24c7fcd946e5ba09ed3e39e9a6cc0a6183c966d97180d5d2d104b08215f3295d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:01:43 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才能夠落實"},{"start":384.71,"end":399.662,"text":"本席在上一次總質詢跟院長達成的共識第三個就是棒球博物館我想部長你也很支持我知道你私下有告訴我你也很支持但是支持一定要有方向"},{"start":400.382,"end":418.277,"text":"你一定要有態度而且要有步驟什麼時候要開始所以呢今年的預算我一樣看不到那院長部長今年的預算裡面是不是可以開始著手有初步的計畫譬如說開始找地啦開始要進行相關的可行性評估啊有沒有這樣的計畫"},{"start":420.333,"end":447.462,"text":"明年開始我覺得應該是整體運動的博物館我們希望說在保留這些過去我們前輩們的所有運動前輩們的所有的文物那包含我們之前去到了花蓮我們也去積極的去做文物的搜尋跟保留那我覺得這對我們運動員來講都是非常有認同感的"},{"start":448.302,"end":475.753,"text":"認同感的當然在博物館的部分我們希望說在最近我們會積極去做來不管是找地還是這部分我們都有慢慢在規劃部長我只是提醒你這個理念跟方向我想部長你是運動員出身絕對不會有問題但現在的問題是我們面對政府預算有限運動部是賴總統重要的方向"},{"start":476.601,"end":502.616,"text":"那怎麼樣在部會當中跟行政院能夠爭取到你要落實你的想法跟理念的預算我想這個是一個你面對的挑戰那其次就是你要很多的場館場地甚至都在地方政府你怎麼中央跟地方做好協調能夠把事情做好我想這個就是剛剛部長講為什麼當部長不容易他的挑戰在哪裡"},{"start":503.756,"end":530.412,"text":"國家史上從中華民國史上我想沒有比這個階段更重視體育更重視運動也沒有像國人至少從我出生到現在國人沒有像此刻大家那麼愛運動你看那個健身房一間一間的開你看大家對於國際的賽事連過去台灣明明足球不是太熱門但你看看過去可以做的"},{"start":531.119,"end":545.026,"text":"現在都不可以做了過去英雄苟且的現在都不可以 為什麼因為民眾太重視了所以你看這個足球協會的理事長也要下台了這在過去都不會發生的啦他就坐在那裡就不會動了"},{"start":546.343,"end":571.767,"text":"但現在不一樣了所以部長你的挑戰就在這裡這些都是所有的體育迷所有的國人期盼運動部能夠在這些事項過去成科沒有辦法改變的事項不管是國人過去不重視或者政府不重視那現在都不是了總統重視民眾更重視所以這些問題都挑戰著運動部部長你同意嗎"},{"start":572.813,"end":587.179,"text":"我認為這個民眾參與運動的這個部分風氣越來越好那我們當然希望說有更多的民眾來參與我們運動讓更多人看見運動可以 那明年就三件事情一定要記住本席就是你沒有監督我就是繼續問啦"},{"start":588.439,"end":604.859,"text":"第一個就是棒球博物館第二個就是運動場館的設施改的興建特別是棒球場館第三個就是自由車場好不好這三個部長你要記住下次見面還是這三個題目如果你沒有進度的話我還是這三個題目"},{"start":606.897,"end":631.45,"text":"謝謝委員 這個場面非常難得一位是帶領國家棒球得到世界金牌的一個是兩度奧運金牌的部長在這裡對話表示我國的棒球政策從這裡開始應該要有更強力的支持政府一定會來支持年輕朋友跟國人最能夠團結一致的運動賽事我們全力把它推動所以場地的設備一定要先把它健全起來不然運動部會做到謝謝院長"},{"start":632.571,"end":650.507,"text":"今天因為適用立委的身份所以李部長一定感受到本席比較嚴厲啦平常當會長的時候我都在拜託你的今天角色不一樣我必須要扮演好監督你們的角色那接下來呢 部長請回我請那個金管會跟經濟部麻煩請金管會經濟部長備詢"},{"start":657.557,"end":684.565,"text":"院長 這個關稅的協議跟美方的這個談判我們還持續在進行當中政府院長率領的談判團隊還一直跟美方保持很積極的正面的接觸那整個景氣產業這個產業在國際上發展的這種集中度非常的高就像全球現在半導體跟AI非常的這個"},{"start":686.657,"end":707.682,"text":"成長力道非常強大台灣其實反映到台灣也可以明顯發現所以我們有整個產業發展趨勢沒有辦法均衡的問題再加上美中貿易談判的問題讓我們台中我們的工具機產業跟金屬加工的這些製造業面臨很大的挑戰"},{"start":708.542,"end":732.105,"text":"那我也看了所有的資料我們也很支持包括這些相關的政策包括這些相關的法規甚至剛剛通過的這個5700億的這個預算本席都非常支持但是這個支持我想主委跟部長都有提出一些方法但是這個落實到基層特別是落實到我們"},{"start":733.431,"end":757.91,"text":"這個台中最多的微型企業他可能員工人數十人上下十幾個甚至更小的他們會面臨到很多訊息的不對等啦譬如說我知道經濟部廣布長你們有成立馬上辦中心對不對馬上辦中心很重要一項業務就是協調銀行不可以雨天收傘是不是"},{"start":758.82,"end":787.367,"text":"那現在到底有多少雨天被收傘打電話到馬上辦中心說他被雨天收傘從成立到現在或者說從美中四月份到現在我們是一再的跟銀行公會一再講就是說基本上他如果繳息正常就待展延的話是可以的自動就會展延六個月到一年所以基本上他是不會收傘"},{"start":788.346,"end":807.937,"text":"我知道政策不會收閃就像很多我們在規定我們在做相關住宅貸款的時候我們也要求過去已經開始房子已經買到的不可以一定要持續給他貸還是很多這種案子所以我在談的其實不是政策不對也不是我們政府不關心"},{"start":808.457,"end":830.454,"text":"而是政策落實到中小企業裡面是不是中小企業他知道這個訊息第二個有沒有這樣的還是持續因為本席作為民意代表我在民間還是多多少少會遇到他很擔心他被雨天收散因為銀行已經找他要談縮減他的額度甚至就有貸款要還清的時候我們現在規定也可以展延半年"},{"start":831.533,"end":853.78,"text":"那這些到底你們再透過馬上辦中心或者透過銀行端兩邊你們都應該去徹底的去了解是不是有這樣的案例案例怎麼處理我們來了解可以嗎可以做到嗎所以本席剛剛才問你們說你們成立馬上辦中心一定如果他真的被收散他就問嘛他就會打電話來這個才是我們對政策落實到特別是微型企業"},{"start":854.68,"end":867.098,"text":"上市公司上公司你都不用擔心他們的資源很多但我們這種台中這種小型微型的企業這個才是大家會覺得為什麼他們總是覺得政府的政策照顧不到他們"},{"start":867.728,"end":894.804,"text":"那就是因為這個中間的落差沒有辦法把它填補沒有填補的結果他就永遠感受不到政策的善意跟預算的善意這個兩位可以做得到沒問題可以給本席一個報告到底你們的平台上面有多少這種案例每一個案例怎麼被對待跟處理本席希望了解這樣好不好這個我一定要代表我們中小企業在這個質詢台上來替他們講話"},{"start":896.552,"end":920.404,"text":"有一些個案可能是因為其他的因素那我希望說我們在銀行端不管是公股的還是民間銀行這個時間點能夠盡量的放寬採取信任長期合作的方式來協助業者這個我一直要求我們的如果這些個案大家不明就理他永遠都在談政府預算沒有到位政策沒有到位就是因為那幾個個案"},{"start":921.826,"end":930.91,"text":"所以我本席為什麼會要求兩位部長跟要追蹤到那個個案這樣好不好最後一個小問題院長那個11月發一萬塊時間定了沒有我們盡快該"},{"start":949.5,"end":951.648,"text":"好 謝謝蔡其桑委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":35,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（9時1分）謝謝主席。請卓院長跟運動部李部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、運動部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長早安、部長早安。部長上任幾天了？"],["李部長洋：一個月多一點。"],["蔡委員其昌：感覺怎麼樣？"],["李部長洋：滿刺激的。"],["蔡委員其昌：拿奧運金牌比較容易，還是當運動部長比較容易？"],["李部長洋：都不容易。"],["蔡委員其昌：都不容易？如果硬要比較出一個，你喜歡哪一個？"],["李部長洋：我都滿喜歡挑戰的。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，那本席就給你一些挑戰。","本席上一次總質詢時，運動部還沒有成立，所以當時的教育部跟卓院長都有承諾一些事項，但是因為有一個很大的變化，這個變化就是財政收支劃分法修正通過，讓中央補助地方政府興建體育設施的能量大減。院長，你記得我們談過優化全民運動與賽會環境計畫，這是113年到116年的計畫，這個計畫的經費總共是64億，其中興建自由車場的部分，按照當時體育署的規劃是要興建高雄、臺南跟臺中3個場館，計畫上也寫3案，這3案當時的預算是不足的，所以就繼續進行溝通協調。部長，你接手之後，這3個案子要不要繼續做？"],["李部長洋：跟委員報告，我們認為現行國際賽事是250公尺的賽道……"],["蔡委員其昌：對！"],["李部長洋：在臺灣是330公尺的賽道……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，不合國際標準！"],["李部長洋：對，所以我們運動部希望站在保護運動員權益的立場來爭取。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，你提院了。院長，運動部有提院，希望行政院來協助。院長，這3個案子要不要繼續來推動？"],["卓院長榮泰：運動部現在的考量是能夠跟國際接軌，這對我們的選手絕對是一種正面的幫助，所以在這個情況底下，我們願意排除各種財政困難，極力地全力來協助。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長，為什麼我持續追問這個案子？是因為我在今年的預算呈現上看不到我們要繼續推動這3個自行車場的案子，所以才利用今天特別來問你。因為預算已經送到立法院來了，如果年底通過，明年就要實施了，但是本席並沒有看到這3個案子的預算，所以今天才會來請教院長，是不是明年我們還有其他預算、可能不是用這個預算科目來支出的情況底下，明年就會開始推動，包括先來發包規劃設計？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在優化全民運動賽會會場這個項下有編了預算，包括臺中是清水還是……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，在清水，在本席的故鄉。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，有提出嘛！應該會納入相關，如果沒有的話，我看運動部有沒有其他預算可以來支應。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。院長，本席給你建議，三個案子一定要推，就如同部長所講的，這個沒有辦法跟國際接軌，而且體育署規劃那麼久，三個地點都是地方政府同意、支持要做的，但因為收支劃分法的改變，所以你們的重點在於跟地方政府溝通，那麼支付的比例是什麼？行政院不可以改變態度，三個案子一定都要做，因為如同部長講的，很重要！國家在推動運動場館改善的決心沒有改變，但你把中央的錢都拿光了，當然我重新跟你談我中央願意出、我有多少錢、希望地方政府負擔多少。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：應該要朝這樣的方向來做，中央絕對不可以退縮，因為這是態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們會按照財政的級次來……"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是中央還是願意全力、負擔大一點的……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，部長跟院長，這是中央的態度，我們支持體育，如果運動部成立，第一件案子首先自行車場就不做了，這不是笑話嗎？","第二個，有關棒球場館的部分，上一次我們也謝謝院長支持，組一軍的場館支持了3億，這場館說一軍，其實就是支持地方政府啦，因為這些場館都是地方政府的。另外，其他的棒球場館，總共加起來，我們支持了九個場館，也就是我們支持了九個地方政府去修繕場館，本席看到這個案子，預算也沒有增加，但是上一次我也跟院長報告過澄清湖球場的LED螢幕，不但小，而且幾乎是看不到了，這個其實是很荒謬，臺灣是科技大廠，我們的面板實在是製造能力全世界有名的，但我們自己的運動場館，一個LED的螢幕，我先不講大小，它已經夠小了，而且還已經完全衰退、看不到內文了。所以上次我有跟院長提，希望來支持高雄地方政府把場館的LED面板改過，部長上任之後，院長，這應該沒有改變吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會改變，因為一個場館如果有一個大的螢幕，看起來就是滿科技感的。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個也是啦，不分藍綠，這也是地方政府要部分負擔，這不是中央，場館是地方政府的嘛！但是方向一定要做，好不好？這個不要改變。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，再請部長來研究看看，如何儘速協助澄清湖棒球場改善。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，部長，這是挑戰嘛，就是這些問題，你都要去溝通、協調，才能夠落實本席在上一次總質詢跟院長達成的共識。","第三個就是棒球博物館，我想部長也很支持，我知道你私下有告訴我，你也很支持，但是支持一定要有方向，你一定要有態度，而且要有步驟，什麼時候要開始。可是今年的預算，我一樣看不到。院長、部長，今年的預算裡面是不是可以開始著手，有初步的計畫，譬如開始找地、開始進行相關的可行性評估，明年開始有沒有這樣的計畫？"],["李部長洋：跟委員您報告，其實目前在棒球，我覺得應該是整體運動的博物館，我們希望保留這些過去我們前輩們的所有文物，包含我們之前去到了花蓮，我們也積極去做文物的蒐尋跟保留，我覺得這對我們運動員來講，都是非常有認同感的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["李部長洋：當然在博物館的部分，最近我們會積極去做，不管是找地還是其他等等，這部分我們都有慢慢在規劃。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，我只是提醒你理念跟方向，我想部長你是運動員出身，絕對不會有問題，但現在的問題是，我們面對政府預算有限，運動部是賴總統重要的方向，怎麼樣在部會當中跟行政院能夠爭取到要落實你的想法跟理念的預算，我想這一個是你面對的挑戰。其次，很多場館、場地都在地方政府，中央怎麼跟地方做好協調，把事情做好？我想這就是剛剛部長講的，為什麼當部長不容易，他的挑戰在哪裡。中華民國國家史上，我想沒有比現在這個階段更重視體育、更重視運動，至少從我出生到現在，國人沒有像此刻那麼愛運動，你看健身房一間一間開，大家對於國際賽事，連過去臺灣明明不太熱門的足球，過去可以做的，現在都不可以做；過去因循苟且的，現在都不可以，為什麼？因為民眾太重視了！所以你看足球協會理事長要下臺了，這在過去是都不會發生的，他就坐在那裡不動了，但現在不一樣，所以部長你的挑戰就在這裡，這些都是所有體育迷、所有國人企盼運動部能夠做的事項，過去的沉痾、沒有辦法改變的事項，過去國人不重視，或者政府不重視，但現在都不是了，總統重視，民眾更重視，所以這些問題都挑戰著運動部，部長，你同意嗎？"],["李部長洋：我認為現在民眾參與運動的風氣越來越好，我們當然希望有更多民眾來參與運動，讓更多人看見運動。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，可以，但明年有三件事情你一定要記住，你沒有進度，本席就會繼續問。第一，棒球博物館；第二，運動場館、設施的興建，特別是棒球場館；第三，自由車場。這三個部長要記住，下一次見面如果你沒有進度，我還是這三個題目。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我想這個場面非常難得，一位是帶領國家棒球得到世界金牌的會長，一個是兩度奧運金牌的部長，兩邊在這裡對話，表示我國的棒球政策從這裡開始，應該會有更強力的支持，政府也一定會支持年輕朋友跟國人最能夠團結一致的運動賽事，我們全力推動，所以場地的設備一定要先健全起來，我想運動部會做到。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝院長，今天因為我是用立委身分質詢，所以李部長一定感受到本席比較嚴厲……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，不會。"],["蔡委員其昌：平常當會長的時候，我都在拜託你的……"],["李部長洋：沒有，沒有。"],["蔡委員其昌：今天角色不一樣，我必須扮演好監督你們的角色，部長請回。接下來我請金管會跟經濟部。"],["主席：麻煩請金管會主委和經濟部部長備詢。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長，我們跟美方的關稅談判，持續在進行當中……"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭副院長率領的談判團隊還一直跟美方保持很積極、正面的接觸。"],["蔡委員其昌：是，整個產業在國際上發展的集中度非常高，就像全球現在半導體跟AI的成長力道非常強大，其實反映到臺灣也可以很明顯發現，所以我們有整個產業發展趨勢沒有辦法均衡的問題，再加上美中貿易談判，讓我們臺中的工具機產業和金屬加工製造業面臨很大的挑戰，我看了所有資料，我們也很支持這些相關的政策和相關的法規，甚至剛剛通過的5,700億預算，本席都非常支持，而這個支持，我想主委跟部長都有提出一些方法，但要落實到基層，特別是落實到我們臺中最多的微型企業，他們可能員工人數十人上下、十幾個，甚至更小，卻面臨很多訊息不對等的問題，譬如我知道經濟部龔部長你們有成立馬上辦中心，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：馬上辦中心很重要的一項業務，就是協調銀行不可以雨天收傘，是不是？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：現在到底有多少雨天被收傘的？從成立到現在，或者從美中談判4月份到現在，有多少人打電話到馬上辦中心說他被雨天收傘？"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有，我們一再跟銀行講，事實上銀行公會也表示，基本上如果繳息正常，舊貸展延是可以的，自動就會展延六個月到一年，所以基本上是不會收傘的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我知道，政策不會收傘，就像在做住宅相關貸款的時候，我們也要求，過去房子已經買到的不可以，一定要持續給他貸款，還是很多這種案子嘛！所以我在談的其實不是政策不對，也不是我們政府不關心，而是政策落實到中小企業裡面，是不是中小企業知道這個訊息。","第二個，有沒有這樣的？還是持續有？因為本席作為民意代表，我在民間還是多多少少會遇到他很擔心他被雨天收傘，因為銀行已經找他，要談縮減他的額度，甚至舊有貸款要還清的時候，我們現在的規定也可以展延半年嘛！那這些到底你們透過馬上辦中心，或者透過銀行端，兩邊你們都應該澈底的去了解啦！是不是有這樣的案例，那案例怎麼處理，可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們來瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：可以做到嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以本席剛剛才問你們說，你們成立馬上辦中心，如果他真的被收傘，他就問嘛！他就會打電話來，這個才是我們對政策落實到……特別是微型企業，上市公司、上櫃公司你都不用擔心，他們的資源很多，但我們臺中這種小型、微型的企業，這個才是大家會覺得為什麼他們總是覺得政府的政策照顧不到他們，那就是因為中間的落差沒有辦法把它填補，沒有填補的結果，他就永遠感受不到政策的善意跟預算的善意，這個兩位可以做得到吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：可以啦？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：給本席一個報告，到底你們的平臺上面有多少這種案例，那每一個案例怎麼被對待跟處理，本席希望了解，這樣好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個我一定要代表我們的中小企業在質詢臺上來替他們講話。"],["卓院長榮泰：有一些個案可能是因為其他的因素。"],["蔡委員其昌：是、是、是。"],["卓院長榮泰：那我希望我們在銀行端，不管是公股的，還是民間銀行，這個時間點能夠儘量的放寬，採取秉持信任、長期合作的方式來協助業者，這個我一直要求我們的部會要做到。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果這些個案大家不明就裡，他永遠都在談政府預算沒有到位、政策沒有到位，就是因為那幾個個案，所以本席為什麼會要求兩位部長要追蹤到個案，這樣好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：最後一個小問題，院長，11月發1萬塊的時間訂了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們儘快，總統公告之後，我們馬上做後續的進行，我也希望越快越好。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，詐騙集團的問題要處理啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個會列為首要……"],["蔡委員其昌：用1萬塊在進行詐騙……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是過去所沒有遇到的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，要加強防範一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：防詐的問題我們列為首要優先。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢，陳素月委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","蔡其昌","洪孟楷","陳素月","王育敏","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蘇清泉","張宏陸","邱鎮軍","吳沛憶","馬文君","廖偉翔","林月琴","游顥"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-10-21"],"gazette_id":"1148002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148002_00006","1148002_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1148002_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}